# Resi Fire alarm



## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

Recently finished an addition in a large home. 

In our addition we added 2 more fire alarm devices which brought the total device count from 17 to 19.

Fire inspection failed because they said anything over 12 devices needs a low voltage system. 

Can they really make you rewire a 6000 sq’ home ?!?!

90% of the devices are located in parts of the home that are existing and finished.

If so has anyone heard of using 14/3 romex for an LV System ? 




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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

WronGun said:


> Recently finished an addition in a large home.
> 
> In our addition we added 2 more fire alarm devices which brought the total device count from 17 to 19.
> 
> ...


I Have used 14 awg romex for bells on a conventional system in combustible construction before. 
I think some of the wiring might help you, but I think you will be running some new wires reguardless. 
Isn’t wireless devices allowed in the us?


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

In my town the only thing wireless allowed is the interconnection, the device still needs 120v with battery backup. I’ve heard others talk about fully wireless remote devices, but not in my town. 


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

The 12-detector limit is an NFPA rule, made into law by most building codes. 

I've had to retrofit low voltage 2-wire smokes to a LV panel before using the existing romex. Wasn't really a huge deal. Once for an apartment house and a couple times for a resi remodel. If your wiring is done more like a "star", you might have some issues. You can put 16 2-wire LV smokes on one zone of a cheap Vista 20P panel.


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## mjbasford (Oct 2, 2016)

MDShunk said:


> The 12-detector limit is an NFPA rule, made into law by most building codes.
> 
> I've had to retrofit low voltage 2-wire smokes to a LV panel before using the existing romex. Wasn't really a huge deal. Once for an apartment house and a couple times for a resi remodel. If your wiring is done more like a "star", you might have some issues. You can put 16 2-wire LV smokes on one zone of a cheap Vista 20P panel.


Keep in mind, in order for the lv fire system to be accepted as the required devices, the power must be hardwired, and not from a plug in transformer.

Also, per the op, I've used Romex for multiple fire alarm retros to avoid rewiring. But Virginia is kind of lawless when it comes to low voltage and fire alarms.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

This could become a big mess. 

The house is massive and has gone through multiple additions. 

I’m sure that are FA boxes with 3 or 4 wires spliced then jumping out to other FA devices. 

All 19 devices are functioning and interconnected 

I don’t understand why this rule is in place. What is the purpose ?


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Are all of these 19 required? Can you blank off any optional extras and get it down to 12?


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

I thought the workaround to this was a relay which allows another 12 devices? I've never heard of a low voltage requirement. Here we have to use line voltage smoke alarms for single family, but a low voltage system can be used in place of it. I've never heard it as being an actual requirement to use low voltage.


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## Signal1 (Feb 10, 2016)

The maximum amount of devices permitted to be interconnected is 18, out of that 18, only 12 can be smoke alarms. As MD said this is an NFPA 72 standard, and is listed in most manufacturer's instructions.

The 120v primary power requirement is not just in your town, it's state wide.
Here is the guide I give to electricians working in our city.
https://www.mass.gov/files/documents/2016/11/mv/conumersguidesd-co2016-booklet.pdf
Read the part near the end about wireless.

We have a bunch of McMansions being built in my city and their solution is a low voltage system with sounder bases at each smoke detector. 

It raises a lot of questions about testing and maintenance etc. per NFPA standards.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

Signal1 said:


> The maximum amount of devices permitted to be interconnected is 18, out of that 18, only 12 can be smoke alarms. As MD said this is an NFPA 72 standard, and is listed in most manufacturer's instructions.
> 
> The 120v primary power requirement is not just in your town, it's state wide.
> Here is the guide I give to electricians working in our city.
> ...




12 smokes and 6 Co2 I think we can make this work. I’m sure there may be 2 or 3 that are not required. I will have to investigate 


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

which (if any) NFPA 72 publication is your state under?
Ohio is under the 2010 for residential.

Smoke alarms outside of the bedrooms can be
within 21 linear feet from the bedroom.

I frequently see others installing these
right outside of each bedroom (which isn't
a horrible idea) , but it is overkill.

Can you eliminate some of the hallway 
ones and keep in code?


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## active1 (Dec 29, 2009)

Could Wrongun separate the fire alarms into 2 separate zones of 12 or less smoke alarms. Then use a relay module on each system such as Kidde SM120X to connect the 2 systems to an alarm panel. Permitted up to 6 relays in addition to the 12 smoke alarms but only need 1 per zone.

So a single smoke would activate the zone relay. The zone relay would signal the FAP fire alarm panel. The FAP would then initiate the other zone relay to turn on the signaling of the smoke alarms.

The relays seem to be able signal and also activate the system.
I haven't tried anything like this.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I like what some of the others are saying, start with one per floor, outside ea bedroom, inside ea bedroom and see what you can eliminate. It's tough with these larger homes, because it isn't long before you are into just that, a commercial like low voltage fire alarm system with panel, etc...


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## trentonmakes (Mar 21, 2017)

Ive been told...its not actually a bedroom unless theres a closet. 
Ive seen a number marked as office on the plans.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Hmm... road to hell paved by that line of thinking? Maybe its time the manufacturers change the limit on these devices or am I missing something? I agree more coverage is better, though attics and garages are a difficult environment for the usual line voltage devices to be in due to extreme temperatures and dust, etc. I would think with line voltage, the voltage drop wouldn't be much of an issue, though I don't know enough about the interconnect to know whether that is part of the problem or they want to sell a fire alarm system at some arbitrary point and we should all be thankful for the increase in cost and complexity.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

I spoke with fire prevention today to find out more details on inspection.


I can eliminate about 3 alarms 

There are 7 total bedrooms including the new master that was added on the current addition

We may be able to bring the count down to 12 smokes and change all combination units to Co2 only. 

Then I’m only allowed 6 more Co2/heat devices 

There are 2 separate 2 gar garages which will require 2 heat devices. 

I’ll be cutting it close 


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

trentonmakes said:


> Ive been told...its not actually a bedroom unless theres a closet.
> Ive seen a number marked as office on the plans.
> 
> 
> Sent from my LG-K550 using Tapatalk


In order for it to be a bedroom , there would also need
to be window or windows of such size that a person could 
get out through it if needed.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

trentonmakes said:


> Ive been told...its not actually a bedroom unless theres a closet.
> Ive seen a number marked as office on the plans.
> 
> 
> Sent from my LG-K550 using Tapatalk


That's an old trick people use around here also to save money for water and sewer tap fees, which are based on numbers of bedrooms, or to get by with a smaller septic system, which is also sized on number of bedrooms.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

The Amish solution is appropriate here. Remove all electrical conductors from the home and disconnect the service at the pole.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Not much good for business though.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

nrp3 said:


> Not much good for business though.


Ya paid me to put it in, ya can pay me to take it out.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

Update ..

Turns out we need low voltage system...

Nightmare ...

House is massive and finished.

All because they Added a 7th Bedroom 


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

WronGun said:


> Update ..
> 
> Turns out we need low voltage system...
> 
> ...


Crappy. Hopefully your not eating the cost and the customer is paying for it.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

eddy current said:


> ****ty. Hopefully your not eating the cost and the customer is paying for it.




We didn’t do anything but add the 19th device. 

Passed Electrical inspection 

Failed fire inspection, but we didn’t have much to do with the FA system 


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

lighterup said:


> which (if any) NFPA 72 publication is your state under?
> Ohio is under the 2010 for residential.
> 
> Smoke alarms outside of the bedrooms can be
> ...




I’m in MA

We need a smoke inside every bedroom and a combination within 10’ of bedrooms( usually 1 in a hallway covers multiple bedrooms)


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

WronGun said:


> We didn’t do anything but add the 19th device.
> 
> Passed Electrical inspection
> 
> ...


Well, that sucks. Hopefully you guys can figure out a way to get paid to put in the LV system in a way that preserves your good name with the customer. Or, call ADT for the 99 dollar special. :biggrin:


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

MDShunk said:


> Well, that sucks. Hopefully you guys can figure out a way to get paid to put in the LV system in a way that preserves your good name with the customer. Or, call ADT for the 99 dollar special. :biggrin:




Do you think this was our fault ?

It never crossed my mind that doing something like a small 600 sq’ edition. In a house totaling over 5000sq’. Would require me to rewire the entire house with a new FA

My GC woulda said “ya right, get outta here”


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

WronGun said:


> Do you think this was our fault ?


Bottom line, yes. 

Would I have caught, before inspection, that it should rightly have a LV system? Doubtful. 

Any time you're adding to or modifying an existing nonconforming installation, everything you touch is now all your fault. Sucks, but that's how it is.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Well that's a pisser @WronGun. I am pretty much on the customer's side in these things but in this case, I'd say refunding whatever you charged for smoke alarms would be enough. 

In fact lets be real, if you said, 

"Wow depending on interpretation of the relevant codes, this could technically trigger a huge headache fire alarm upgrade, want me to just put in a couple smokes and see what the inspector says?" 

ALMOST every customer would have rolled the dice. 

And come on, this is a mansion, it would be a little different if was a repair for a little old lady.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

splatz said:


> Well that's a pisser @WronGun. I am pretty much on the customer's side in these things but in this case, I'd say refunding whatever you charged for smoke alarms would be enough.
> 
> In fact lets be real, if you said,
> 
> ...




Well during the job. I did mention missing alarm
locations in other finished parts of the home. The GC and I both shrugged at it saying something like well let’s see how inspection goes. 

I’ve learned quite a bit during this situation, Even still I still feel like it’s somewhat my fault.

Not only is it a big house it’s like a Maze. Fire prevention didn’t even find some of the other parts with devices. 

Will make a great wire fishing job 🤦🏼*♂

The only device that will be a quick easy wire pull is the new smoke alarm we installed in the new master.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

WronGun said:


> Do you think this was our fault ?
> 
> no, it’s the designer / engineer / GC’s fault. We’re you involved in the design or were you just hired to do electrical and given a set of plans?
> 
> My GC woulda said “ya right, get outta here”


I bet now he wishes you would have known at The begging of the job.


I hate to say it, but this is the kind of thing I like to learn off of someone else’s mistake. Hope it works out for you.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

He hasn't really said, but I'm pretty sure he's going to get paid some kind of way to put in a LV fire alarm.

Worst case, even if he had to eat the cost, we're talking about a wire type that's damn near free, a hundred dollar panel, several hundred in devices, and a ton of labor. Not really the end of the world. It's mostly all labor.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

I was given very detailed prints just on the new addition. That’s what I was hired to do.
(We added device #18 , and #19 to the new area)

Along the way things came up about bringing FA up to code, it was just vague and quick. 

We looked at some missing devices in other parts of home but just brushed them off. I myself didnt even know the whole house..

Just before inspection we learned all the devices were 10-12 yrs old.... this was the first time we actually walked every single room and hallway to swap out every device....

Ofcourse I’m not charging him for the devices , if im taking them all back.

FIre Dept signed off on prints prior to Job, then during walk thru realized all the devices. 

I think GC or myself should’ve scheduled a fire dept walk-thru but I never would’ve thought of there being too many devices. 

IMO , this code makes no sense... sounds like a random number thrown out by Kiddie 






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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

MDShunk said:


> He hasn't really said, but I'm pretty sure he's going to get paid some kind of way to put in a LV fire alarm.
> 
> 
> 
> Worst case, even if he had to eat the cost, we're talking about a wire type that's damn near free, a hundred dollar panel, several hundred in devices, and a ton of labor. Not really the end of the world. It's mostly all labor.




The way I would approach this is to deduct the cost for the (2) new devices with wiring we installed and all the quick device swaps at the end of the job 

Then I would charge for the full LV system... no way would I do this for free, it’s not like I installed something wrong and have to do it over....

We spent an hour changing devices at the end and done. 

This is a major job .. will cost far more then the full job we did in the addition


If this was an FA job from the start and we did it wrong then yes ... 100% my fault 

No one is losing money.... what needs to be done , simply wasn’t done and will now be an extra...

This is all old work...

The last 2 bigger commercial jobs I did I hired my own fire protection engineer to draw things up because I don’t want to take chances. 

I know most jobs have full prints drawn up, but I get into a lot of commercial rehabs where the business owners don’t necessarily have Gc’s they just hire the trades that are needed to fix/rehab the small building which leaves me In Control of all the logistics on our part including hiring engineers , etc. which is fine because it’s all minimal work I make money on. 

I’ll be honest and admit I’m not a fire code guru


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## Signal1 (Feb 10, 2016)

Just an FYI,
*
NFPA 72 29.8.2.1*
The interconnection of smoke or heat alarms shall comply with the following:

(1) Smoke or heat alarms shall not be interconnected in numbers that exceed the manufacturer's published instructions.

(2) In no case shall there be more that 18 initiating devices be interconnected (of which 12 can be smoke alarms) where the interconnecting means is not supervised.

*A29.8.2.1* Once thee limits have been exceeded, a fire alarm system should be installed. (This is the appendix to the code.)

Unfortunately this is your nemesis right now.

As I said earlier in this thread, the are a lot of large homes being built in my area, and the "design professionals" are starting out with a FA system right out of the gate, but I can see where a renovation/addition could throw you a curve ball like this.

Sell this thing and make money. (don't forget the breaker lock:thumbsup


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## LARMGUY (Aug 22, 2010)

WronGun said:


> The only device that will be a quick easy wire pull is the new smoke alarm we installed in the new master.


:vs_no_no_no:



Nope, the 20th one required above the FACP.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

LARMGUY said:


> :vs_no_no_no:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Is it correct that the riser and return need to be 4’ apart ? 

Once again this will be a new experience for me.




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## LARMGUY (Aug 22, 2010)

WronGun said:


> Is it correct that the riser and return need to be 4’ apart ?
> 
> Once again this will be a new experience for me.
> 
> ...



I'm not sure what you are asking.

The actual fire riser wiring and what, return air?

The smoke has to be 3 ft. from any air source or return or ceiling fan blade tips if that is what you are asking.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

WronGun said:


> Is it correct that the riser and return need to be 4’ apart ?
> 
> Once again this will be a new experience for me.
> 
> ...


I think your talking about what we call in Canada a “Class A” loop, or “DCLA” and yes the primary and alternate have mandatory distances.

No offence but I suggest you sub this out. Less headache for you and you can still make $


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## LARMGUY (Aug 22, 2010)

eddy current said:


> I think your talking about what we call in Canada a “Class A” loop, or “DCLA” and yes the primary and alternate have mandatory distances.
> 
> No offence but I suggest you sub this out. Less headache for you and you can still make $


I have never used a Class A loop. I always use Class B, SLC or addressable.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

LARMGUY said:


> I have never used a Class A loop. I always use Class B, SLC or addressable.


Everything new around here is a class A addressable with isolators. (DCLC is what we call it, Data Communication Link)

Most of the old conventional stuff I’ve worked on was class B, lots of that around.

I have never even seen an addressable class B out in the field.


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## Signal1 (Feb 10, 2016)

WronGun said:


> Is it correct that the riser and return need to be 4’ apart ?
> 
> Once again this will be a new experience for me.
> 
> ...


Going from memory here, 

In NFPA 72 Chapter 12 "Circuits and Pathways", it states that for class A circuits the conductors need to be routed separately by 12 in. on vertical runs and 48 in. on horizontal runs, EXCEPT for 10 feet entering the device or control panel.

I'll look up the specific code section on Monday if someone doesn't get it on here first.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

I have no idea why anyone would wire a dwelling class A unless there was a specific requirement to do so. I'm not sure what level of self-hatred you'd have to dip to in order to pick class A on purpose.


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