# window A.C. compressor trips AFCI breaker



## partimer31 (Jun 9, 2009)

Okay, the question I'm about to ask, may have been asked and answer in
a past Post. So please for give me.


This summer in Vermont was very hot. In the year 2004 customer added
a new bedroom to his existing home. The general purpose outlets/duplex
receptacles where feed from a QO SD Homeline 20 amp. rated, AFCI circuit
breaker.

This summer while using a 120 volt cord & plug window A.C unit install in
his bedroom, he complain to me that the AFCI circuit breaker was tripping alot. 
A this tripping was associated with the A.C. compressor coming on.

I made a service call, and this AFCI Breaker, installed in the year 2004
with blue marking doesn't trip for me.

Now does anyone out there, know if a new one, replacing the old existing
one, will solve this customer problem.


----------



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

partimer31 said:


> Okay, the question I'm about to ask, may have been asked and answer in
> a past Post. So please for give me.
> 
> 
> ...


 

Possibly, I would guess two things:


1) the a/c is going bad

2) but what is more than likely happening is an arc fault breaker that old does not recognoze the arc signature created by a hermetic refrigerant motor. They produce internal arcs that have been identified and accounted for in the new afci's but not the old ones. If a new, up to date afci doesn't fix the problem, I would bet his a/c has problems yet to arise.


----------



## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Weren't the blue arc fault breakers the recalled ones?


----------



## partimer31 (Jun 9, 2009)

Many thanks to, mcclary's electrical for your well though out reply to my
my post. Very interesting information you provided.

Just one thought of my own, what do you me that the A.C. unit may 
come down with problems, yet to be determine.


----------



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

partimer31 said:


> Many thanks to, mcclary's electrical for your well though out reply to my
> my post. Very interesting information you provided.
> 
> Just one thought of my own, what do you me that the A.C. unit may
> come down with problems, yet to be determine.


 


If a new arc fault doesn't fix the problem, the problem is failing insulation in the motor, that will eventually let go, if that is the case, the arc fault breaker is doing exactly what it is designed to do.

I would megger the unit compressor(completely isolated) and that should tell you what's happening


----------



## Toronto Sparky (Apr 12, 2009)

Old bar fridges tend to trip them as well..


----------



## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

......After the underwriters cert. throw the AFI in its rightful place, the trash and install a standard breaker.


----------



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Shockdoc said:


> ......After the underwriters cert. throw the AFI in its rightful place, the trash and install a standard breaker.


 

Good advise:no:


The thing might be keeping the house from burning down for all you know


----------



## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

Shockdoc said:


> ......After the underwriters cert. throw the AFI in its rightful place, the trash and install a standard breaker.


Thats a hack job

~Matt


----------



## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

If the customer has a regular duplex receptacle in the house have him either run a cord or move it there for testing. Also, he should look through the outside louvers at the inside of the condenser coil. They are usually pretty well clogged up. I don't understand why they don't install filters there as well, but they don't. Anyway, if clogged up it will run on hi head pressure all the time and when it cycles ,off and back on, some really wierd things can happen with the internal overload device...klixon. If really clogged...unclog it.:thumbsup:


----------



## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

TOOL_5150 said:


> Thats a hack job
> 
> ~Matt


Sorry, I'm just one who's had to devote too much of my own time to deal w/ this POS code mandated infertile device that trips when customers plug in blow dryers or other motor load appliances. I don't support corporate lobbying and government mandating for a breaker that's not proven to be effective . Read the fine print.


----------



## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

I have found only 2 AFCI's ever that were's tripping for a reason.

That reason is not always easy to determine.


----------



## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

MDShunk said:


> I have found only 2 AFCI's ever that were's tripping for a reason.
> 
> That reason is not always easy to determine.


 I can say my bad taste started in 02 when I found they would trip for such things as a blow dryer , portable drill, contractor tools. I don't believe they were perfected. I don't believe they should have been made code before they were on the market and perfected. They did'nt pay for my time and gas to replace them.


----------



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

I could count on my fingers and toes the tripping AFCI's I've had to troubleshoot, but I've never seen one that tripped on an "arc signature." The problem always turned out to be a ground-fault that was dumping the 30mA(?) GFP in the breaker.

Ground-faults are a pretty common mode of failure for hermetic compressors. I'd toss in a GFCI and see if it held, if it didn't, you'd have your answer.

-John


----------



## partimer31 (Jun 9, 2009)

*A.C. unit tripping AFCI breaker when compressor kids in.*

Got some real hot weather coming up, Big John, I think I try what you
suggested and test the circuit with a common GFCI circuit breaker.
Thanks. And yes I want to thanks everyone who posted to this thread.
I really helps to hear from you guys.

Edit: kicks in.


----------



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Big John said:


> I could count on my fingers and toes the tripping AFCI's I've had to troubleshoot, but I've never seen one that tripped on an "arc signature." The problem always turned out to be a ground-fault that was dumping the 30mA(?) GFP in the breaker.
> 
> Ground-faults are a pretty common mode of failure for hermetic compressors. I'd toss in a GFCI and see if it held, if it didn't, you'd have your answer.
> 
> -John


 

Curious how you determined this? What testing? Assumption? How can you prove this statement?


----------



## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Curious how you determined this? What testing? Assumption? How can you prove this statement?


Sometimes one needs to think outside of the box......


----------



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Curious how you determined this? What testing? Assumption? How can you prove this statement?


 I can't prove all of them beyond a shadow of a doubt, but:

A) In several of the cases I found easily measurable ground-fault current.
B) In many cases I ended up finding and repairing an obvious ground fault, and that resolved the problem.
C) In cases where I could not find an obvious ground fault but knew what was causing the trip (one was a keyless lampholder) I could not find any signs or symptoms of arcing or heating. So, I am assuming for those, but I think it's a pretty safe assumption.

It's also a matter of odds: A ground fault in an electrical system is a lot more common than an arcing fault. Remember all it takes is 30mA to trip these things.

-John


----------



## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Big John said:


> I can't prove all of them beyond a shadow of a doubt, but:
> 
> A) In several of the cases I found easily measurable ground-fault current.
> B) In many cases I ended up finding and repairing an obvious ground fault, and that resolved the problem.
> ...


 
Not all brands of arc fault breakers have gfi protection built in.


----------



## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Big John said:


> I could count on my fingers and toes the tripping AFCI's I've had to troubleshoot, but I've never seen one that tripped on an "arc signature." The problem always turned out to be a ground-fault that was dumping the 30mA(?) GFP in the breaker.
> 
> Ground-faults are a pretty common mode of failure for hermetic compressors. I'd toss in a GFCI and see if it held, if it didn't, you'd have your answer.
> 
> -John


I've seen vacuum cleaners cause them to trip. No ground fault there. Just the motor starting up.


----------



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

jwjrw said:


> Not all brands of arc fault breakers have gfi protection built in.


 Well, then on those unidentified cases I've fixed, that's an even bigger assumption, because I thought pretty much all AFCIs had GFP. But the point still stands that those cases, I've never seen any signs or symptoms of arcing or heating.

I've seen a couple of light fixtures trip these things. Those are pretty straight forward, if one was arcing, it'd be pretty easy to tell. I wish I could say I meggered them and proved for a fact it was a GF, but to be honest once I determined "here's what's broken" I wasn't too concerned with determining whatever fashion it happened to be broken.

-John


----------



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Jwjrw,

Do you know any name-brands that don't have the GFP function, or is that more of the off-brand breakers? Because that would be a good thing for me to remember for future trouble-shooting.

-John


----------



## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Big John said:


> Jwjrw,
> 
> Do you know any name-brands that don't have the GFP function, or is that more of the off-brand breakers? Because that would be a good thing for me to remember for future trouble-shooting.
> 
> -John


 
I was reading about it. I think it was a seimens ad or an article on their latest. Maybe it was their 2 pole arc. For the life of me I can't remember but I do remember them talking about it not using gfi in it. Sorry I can't be of more help. Maybe I dreamed it IDK..:laughing:


----------



## EJPHI (May 7, 2008)

partimer31 said:


> Okay, the question I'm about to ask, may have been asked and answer in
> a past Post. So please for give me.
> 
> 
> ...


Was it hot on the day you made the servfice call? 

If the "brain" inside the AFCI breaker has a thermally intermittant solder connection, then a little bit more heat will cause it to misbehave. You could warm it up by blowing some hot air on it. My wife lets me use one of her hair dryers if keep it clean. Otherwise you can get an engineer: they contain lots of hot air.

EJPHI


----------



## partimer31 (Jun 9, 2009)

*A.C. unit tripping AFCI breaker when compressor kids in.*

Thanks for your thoughful Post, EJPHI. The one that trip had one two AFCI adjacent to it. I am planning to seperate the three, as thermal
over load is my mind.


----------



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

partimer31 said:


> Thanks for your thoughful Post, EJPHI. The one that trip had one two AFCI adjacent to it. I am planning to seperate the three, as thermal
> over load is my mind.


 


I took a class that talked about never stacking two AFCI's on top of each other. Ever since that class, I've noticed a few poster in supply house and they always have a normal breaker in between two AFCI's. Myth?


----------



## Toronto Sparky (Apr 12, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> I've seen vacuum cleaners cause them to trip. No ground fault there. Just the motor starting up.


Arcing brushes will always cause tripping..


----------



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Toronto Sparky said:


> Arcing brushes will always cause tripping..


 

Not if the arc signature has been accounted for


----------



## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

Shockdoc said:


> ......After the underwriters cert. throw the AFI in its rightful place, the trash and install a standard breaker.


 I agree get rid of it........Arc fault breakers are a joke IMO. Yes i know we have to comply but they are a joke......


----------



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

captkirk said:


> I agree get rid of it........Arc fault breakers are a joke IMO. Yes i know we have to comply but they are a joke......


 

Why??? cause the end user is forced to correct bad wiring habits he has formed throughout the years??


They are much safer, and if roughed in carefully, you will not have problems.


----------



## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Why??? cause the end user is forced to correct bad wiring habits he has formed throughout the years??
> 
> 
> They are much safer, and if roughed in carefully, you will not have problems.


So how much stock do you own in it? Please explain how these breakers became code before they marketed and perfected.


----------



## Toronto Sparky (Apr 12, 2009)

Shockdoc said:


> So how much stock do you own in it? Please explain how these breakers became code before they marketed and perfected.



Sort of like the Windows operating system?
Some day Bill may get that right.. :laughing:


----------



## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Toronto Sparky said:


> Sort of like the Windows operating system?
> Some day Bill may get that right.. :laughing:


 When we all fail to Question Authority , we end up with a world like the one we have now.


----------



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Shockdoc said:


> So how much stock do you own in it? Please explain how these breakers became code before they marketed and perfected.


 
How does that affect my argument or his? How does that have any bearing on the conversation?

I said they were safer, and forced everybody to use safer wiring habits.
The people who have so many problems are mostly due to their own wiring habits


----------



## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> How does that affect my argument or his? How does that have any bearing on the conversation?
> 
> I said they were safer, and forced everybody to use safer wiring habits.
> The people who have so many problems are mostly due to their own wiring habits


I pigtail or loop all my wiring, no ground to neutral contact. Never hammer down staples ......junk breakers that trip due to motors , not perfected for practical use. made code via lobbying by big business. I have'nt seen any gfi breakers trip due to a blow dryer, power drill, vacuum cleaner. JUNK!


----------



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> ...The people who have so many problems are mostly due to their own wiring habits.


 I will agree to that one. A number of the problems I've seen were new-construction, where a device was just shoved in a box causing the EGC to hit the neutral. I actually worked on a crew with a mechanic who wasn't allowed to wire bedrooms because that's where the AFCI's were, and his wiring always caused them to trip. :blink:

-John


----------



## partimer31 (Jun 9, 2009)

*Window A.C. units trips AFCI breaker*

My post is now dated.

Question: I measure the voltage at the receptacle, where this A.C. unit
was plug into, and measure 117. volts.


Second wouldn't a A.C. unit have mechanical contactors?

So does any one have an opinion, would a new AFCI homeline breaker work?

Thanks to all that reply.


----------



## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

partimer31 said:


> My post is now dated.
> 
> Question: I measure the voltage at the receptacle, where this A.C. unit
> was plug into, and measure 117. volts.
> ...


Maybe.... But I would try a GFCI breaker first, since it is designed to trip at a lower ground fault current than 30 mA. If the A/C has an intermittent fault, it may still have a very low leakage current that will trip a GFI but not an AFCI.

If it trips the GFCI, it is the A/C itself. On that note, I also agree that AFCI's are junk, but we install them because they are mandated. On a recent job, I witnessed a brand new shop vac trip an AFCI in one apartment, but not in another. A miter saw did just the opposite in each apartment. To me, that is unreliable operation of the AFCI.


----------



## I_get_shocked (Apr 6, 2009)

The point is if they saved one persons life they are worth it. Period.


----------



## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

I_get_shocked said:


> The point is if they saved one persons life they are worth it. Period.


I can save a life for less:jester:


----------



## Jsmit319 (Sep 23, 2010)

From the way I understand the process, arc fault breakers were intended to provide early detection of arcing mostly due to furniture (beds, dressers, couches, etc.) being shoved up against a receptacle with a cord attached to it and causing fires. Good idea, poor execution. Another thing to remember with afci's is that they don't play well with gfci's. I've found that the arc fault will trip intermittently for no discernable reason, (although that was a while ago, perhaps they've improved since then).


----------



## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Jsmit319 said:


> From the way I understand the process, arc fault breakers were intended to provide early detection of arcing mostly due to furniture (beds, dressers, couches, etc.) being shoved up against a receptacle with a cord attached to it and causing fires. Good idea, poor execution. Another thing to remember with afci's is that they don't play well with gfci's. I've found that the arc fault will trip intermittently for no discernable reason, (although that was a while ago, perhaps they've improved since then).



The old non combo's had issues. Intermittent tripping was common with the cutler hammers we were using. The new ones I have had no problems with and have not seen any issues with afci with a gfi on the same circuit tripping.


----------



## Jsmit319 (Sep 23, 2010)

Yep, CH BR series panel.


----------



## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Jsmit319 said:


> Yep, CH BR series panel.



Yep. I have had no problems out of their combination arc faults thank god.


----------



## redseal (Sep 22, 2010)

I_get_shocked said:


> The point is if they saved one persons life they are worth it. Period.


 
Wonder how many accidental child drownings we could save by eliminating bath tubs.

Or Vehicle deaths by banning cars, heart attacks by banning butter, high blood pressure by banning salt, guns, bows and arrows, accidential falls of extension ladders.

I just saved millions and millions of lives with my banning suggestions, banning a regular breaker is no different in the thought process. 

We live in a risk filled world, if we lived by this "if it saved one persons life" notion, life wouldnt be worth living...


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

redseal said:


> Wonder how many accidental child drownings we could save by eliminating bath tubs.
> 
> Or Vehicle deaths by banning cars, heart attacks by banning butter, high blood pressure by banning salt, guns, bows and arrows, accidential falls of extension ladders.
> 
> ...


:yes::yes::yes::yes::yes:

There are dangerous things in this world, don't ban them, learn and teach to use them properly.


----------



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

redseal said:


> Wonder how many accidental child drownings we could save by eliminating bath tubs.
> 
> Or Vehicle deaths by banning cars, heart attacks by banning butter, high blood pressure by banning salt, guns, bows and arrows, accidential falls of extension ladders.
> 
> ...


 


You're right, we should have stopped improving at knob and tube. What the hell were we thinking?





What a silly thing for a supposed electrician to say


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> You're right, we should have stopped improving at knob and tube. What the hell were we thinking?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Obviously you can't apply it to everything, some stuff _actually_ needs to go some doesn't.


----------



## redseal (Sep 22, 2010)

```
What a silly thing for a supposed electrician to say
```
Supposed...lol

You must be a pipe bender, just wait till '11 when it comes your way


----------



## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

redseal said:


> Wonder how many accidental child drownings we could save by eliminating bath tubs.
> 
> Or Vehicle deaths by banning cars, heart attacks by banning butter, high blood pressure by banning salt, guns, bows and arrows, accidential falls of extension ladders.
> 
> ...


The government wants to help you on how to live healthier and safer, let there be laws, taxes and requirements levied so your safety and wellbeing is priority one. If you believe that's the intention I have some land you might be interested in for sale.


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Shockdoc said:


> The government wants to help you...


:lol::lol::laughing::laughing:


----------



## Toronto Sparky (Apr 12, 2009)

How about Cigarettes and Alcohol ? Opps.. forgot, they would lose too much tax.


----------



## I_get_shocked (Apr 6, 2009)

redseal said:


> Wonder how many accidental child drownings we could save by eliminating bath tubs.
> 
> Or Vehicle deaths by banning cars, heart attacks by banning butter, high blood pressure by banning salt, guns, bows and arrows, accidential falls of extension ladders.
> 
> ...



This is most ridiculous argument I have ever heard. Its an improved breaker not the entire removal of electricity in the home. AFCIs provide arc protection, ground fault protection, and overcurrent protection. If you have problems with them perhaps you and your crew need to clean up on your wiring skills, quit hammering the piss out of staples, quit tying neutrals of different circuits together, and make damn sure theres no neutral to ground contact. These things have been in the code for years. Compare the # of AFCIs that are out there in use vs the # of AFCI circuits that "nuisance" trip".


----------



## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

I_get_shocked said:


> This is most ridiculous argument I have ever heard. Its an improved breaker not the entire removal of electricity in the home. AFCIs provide arc protection, ground fault protection, and overcurrent protection. If you have problems with them perhaps you and your crew need to clean up on your wiring skills, quit hammering the piss out of staples, quit tying neutrals of different circuits together, and make damn sure theres no neutral to ground contact. These things have been in the code for years. Compare the # of AFCIs that are out there in use vs the # of AFCI circuits that "nuisance" trip".


Question is, are they PROVEN effective? I have heard reports of electrical fires starting on AFI circuits. I've seen many of them fail after three years. I question their legitimacy and the NFPA70's requirements of them.


----------

