# Non electrician troubleshooting electrical devices



## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

Pearce Services said:


> How should this work in the real world?
> 
> I am commercial Door installer, we service up to 480v/3ph door openers and motors on dock lifts and levelers. The majority of the service in on the low voltage side (24v) I try to always start at the transformer to see input voltage and output voltage to isolate where the problem is.
> 
> ...


Hello Kevin: The low voltage work is what you guys are trained for, however running circuits from a load center to control panels is licensed work that needs permits and inspections and the motors if they are hard wired.

But I've seen most of those motors plugged in with a cord and twist-lock receptacle.

So I don't see an issue with trouble shooting and replacing low voltage stuff. the HVAC Guys do the same with their equipment.

Do you have an electrical inspector giving you a hard time?


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## Ontario (Sep 9, 2013)

-There is no way that I know of to test for voltage drop on a disconnected circuit. In the Canadian Electrical Code, there's a section in the back that you could use to calculate VDrop. I don't have it on me so I can't cite it specifically, but I know it's there.

-If you are not altering the system in any way, then you should be fine. 

-I would love to get a call to work with a door man. Easy money!


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

If you are trained by your company, troubleshoot away. 

You should never, install, extend, or move any line voltage wiring without a license .


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

I just tell customers to call us and forget the door guys. 

Many do not have the proper certifications required on many of our sites anyway.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

in my area, most counties have a limited electrical license for hvac, elevator guys, and i guess other trades. the extent of the permission is clear by the rules. don't they do that up there ?


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Pearce Services said:


> > How should this work in the real world?
> >
> > I am commercial Door installer, we service up to 480v/3ph door openers and motors on dock lifts and levelers. The majority of the service in on the low voltage side (24v) I try to always start at the transformer to see input voltage and output voltage to isolate where the problem is.
> >
> ...


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## sparky970 (Mar 19, 2008)

Are you wearing the proper ppe for voltage testing?


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## Pearce Services (Sep 9, 2012)

Jlarson said:


> I just tell customers to call us and forget the door guys.
> 
> Many do not have the proper certifications required on many of our sites anyway.


 
I would have no problem with that. The problem I have seen with this is the need to have spare parts to do service. Some times is takes proprietary parts for service. 

Again the majority of the issues are low voltage. If there is no power, or a supply issue we stop there.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

And we're not going to have those parts Pearce , in fact we're not going to have the _'parts' _for a number of specific electrically operated amenities, nor do most of us wish to stock or pursue them.

~CS~


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## Pearce Services (Sep 9, 2012)

chicken steve said:


> please write your licensing board Kevin, , explain that we'd rather let you guys alone and not take up the slack, or bear the onus of blame
> 
> thx
> 
> ~CS~


I would have no issues at all getting a special license for specialty like this. 

You are close enough to MA to know how it works here, Local 103 has an insane amount of clout, and every Dem in their pockets. Local 103 does not want this, it will never happen. This state is very structured with this stuff. You need a permit and a licensed plumber to jiggle the handle. You can't push the button on elevators during construction (OE job). 

There are many times when I have to battle to get electricians to tie in the motor, they seem to want to bring power to control box, and let the leveler or door guy run power to the motor. Sometimes they would have to get into a dock leveler pit to tie in the motor. 

I have found most licensed guys say, that's fine you do it so I don't have to. 

How many guys on this site have let this slide to make it easier on them? it happens. 

I guess that the big issue is that it is easier for everyone to let us do it. That is just not always legit. I am just trying to find a fine line that is logical, and legal.


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## Pearce Services (Sep 9, 2012)

sparky970 said:


> Are you wearing the proper ppe for voltage testing?


Not typically, I have had times when we wore 20 cal suits and masks, I would always like to follow best safety practices, being 30' in the air on a ladder with a complete PPE would not be safe either, it would then require a scissor lift. I do not know any company in my industry that does wear proper PPE, even ones with in-house electricians.

I do not think I have ever seen a pro get suited up to test to see if voltage is present at a motor either, except once at Intel, and the guy bitched about it the whole time.


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## Pearce Services (Sep 9, 2012)

chicken steve said:


> Pearce Services said:
> 
> 
> > You don't.
> ...


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## Pearce Services (Sep 9, 2012)

and thanks to all for taking the time to reply


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

sparky970 said:


> Are you wearing the proper ppe for voltage testing?


 
To test if there is line power ? Give me a break !


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## Michigan Master (Feb 25, 2013)

1) What is the license ramifications if I am not running wires, etc, just a multimeter at this point.
I highly doubt you need to be licensed in MA just to troubleshoot; you *DO* however need to be “qualified” which is defined by OSHA as, _“one who has received training in and has demonstrated skills and knowledge in the construction and operation of electric equipment and installations and the hazards involved.”_ 

Generally speaking, as long as all you are doing is troubleshooting and electrical maintenance work as defined below, then I think it’s fine.

“*Electrical Maintenance Work:* The replacement, or repair of existing electrical appurtenances, apparatus, equipment, machinery, or controls. All replacements or repairs must be of the same rating and type as the existing installation and no improvements are to made. Electrical maintenance work does NOT include the installation of any new electrical appurtenances, apparatus, equipment, machinery, or controls beyond the scope of any existing electrical installation."

2) What about working on a live circuit, how else can you trouble shoot a circuit, check for voltage drop, etc if the unit is not live. 
This is one of the exceptions to the requirement for de-energization.


> *CFR 29 1910.333(a)(1)*
> Live parts to which an employee may be exposed shall be deenergized before the employee works on or near them, unless the employer can demonstrate that deenergizing introduces additional or increased hazards or is infeasible due to equipment design or operational limitations. Live parts that operate at less than 50 volts to ground need not be deenergized if there will be no increased exposure to electrical burns or to explosion due to electric arcs.
> 
> Note 1: Examples of increased or additional hazards include interruption of life support equipment, deactivation of emergency alarm systems, shutdown of hazardous location ventilation equipment, or removal of illumination for an area.
> ...


3) do electricians really want to get a call to come out to work with a door guy to troubleshoot, there are likely parts of the system that the electrician is not aware of, nor do they want to mess with. Do you guys really feel it is an electricians job first then a doors guys job if they need tech assistance, or the other way around? 
Door guy first, providing he is qualified. I’m in in-house plant electrician, we usually get the first call if there is an overhead door issue just because we’re already here, although sometimes it’s not our priority. If someone calls the door guy I have no problem letting them figure it out (especially if it’s warranty work), but if they need help we will usually jump in.


dronai said:


> To test if there is line power ? Give me a break !


Likely low incident energy at these locations and therefore not much PPE necessary beyond nonflammable clothing, rubber gloves and safety glasses.


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

Pearce Services said:


> Not typically, I have had times when we wore 20 cal suits and masks, I would always like to follow best safety practices, being 30' in the air on a ladder with a complete PPE would not be safe either, it would then require a scissor lift. I do not know any company in my industry that does wear proper PPE, even ones with in-house electricians.
> 
> I do not think I have ever seen a pro get suited up to test to see if voltage is present at a motor either, *except once at Intel, and the guy bitched about it the whole time.*


:laughing:

He's a crybaby:laughing:

Do you do a lot of work on local 103 jobs?


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## NacBooster29 (Oct 25, 2010)

Most door openers, levelers we bring power to a disconnect. Or a receptacle. 
Once in a blue moon I've had to climb under a loading dock to change a motor. 
I've seen the 120v door openers have seperate compartments for line voltage and low voltage. Usually they have a built in switch to kill power. 
The higher voltage 480 v garage door openers could be hazardous. And I would recomend the proper ppe. And osha would hang your company out if you were hurt working live. 
Always cover your ass!


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## Pearce Services (Sep 9, 2012)

Black Dog said:


> :laughing:
> 
> He's a crybaby:laughing:
> 
> Do you do a lot of work on local 103 jobs?


we do a fair amount of pharmaceutical door installs, That is when we mostly work with 103, but after the initial installations it is rare to see them. 

Are you local 103?


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