# Industrial/ commercial guy doing his first house.......



## Coach529 (Sep 20, 2016)

OK........doing my first house next week. Small, 1500 square foot with pretty much bare min electrical.

Any advice for a newbie?


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Expect to make no money whatsoever.

It's your background.

Commercial and Industrial electricians come from a different world -- and will over-build anything Residential.

Such is life.

It's a field you'd best stay away from.

Similarly, Residential electricians will be a disaster as Commercial or Industrial electricians.

Seen THAT over and over and over.

Heh.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

Is it for a GC or for a HO?

Box it out

Drill it out

Pull HR's

Branch Ckts one at a time

Make-Up

Collect Money...

You need to start by building a checklist of what you will do, everything that needs to be done. Follow the list and make sure to update it, add in notes, the amount of time and materials used, etc... 

When you are all done you will now have a point of reference for future projects, for both bidding them and completing them.


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## Coach529 (Sep 20, 2016)

Switched said:


> Is it for a GC or for a HO?
> 
> Box it out
> 
> ...


For a GC.

Typically I avoid them, but it fits in our schedule nicely and I think the submitted numbers is good.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

I personally would not make s**t on a new construction 1500 sq ft
house if I did it T&M...I'd lose out on the labor for certain cause i can
do em in my friggin sleep.

An Industrial guy usually takes a lot longer so maybe it would
work for him...also like Telsa said..."overbuilding" means make more
on materials too.


BTW , I bid these jobs as if I'm a lareger company sending a couple
of employees along with profit margins and then go bust em out
alone.

Trust me ... I swear some customers have literal STEAM flowing
out of their ears when they perceive how easy I did the job vs 
what I'm charging ..

Have had comments (not flattering either) about this.

I simply say..."sooo you'd feel better about the price you agreed to
if I was more inept?


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

Just remember.... code minimum...

I started out roping houses as an apprentice. I was very good at it and know all the tricks to go fast, although I am no longer 17....

Even with that knowledge, I doubt I could profitably compete in that marketplace. You really need to be set up with cheap labor, corner cutting strategies, and sub-par materials.

Maybe this is a good GC and the HO is willing to pay good money for quality, but that isn't 99% of that type of market.


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## Arrow3030 (Mar 12, 2014)

Don't get sloppy with your nail on boxes. I can't stand boxes that are installed Willy nilly during rough. I'm talking about set back here BTW. When you go to trim, you want that box within a 1/4" (or flush) with the rock.

You may have never seen a nail plate before too but they're very important. I use to put them on while waiting for an inspection but now I prefer to install them as I'm drilling


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

Too much work...too little ROI.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Brian John had a recent thread like this, look for that for some ideas. 

This kind of thing, you shouldn't lose money but you might lose time, you'll likely put in more hours than anticipated due to the learning curve. I don't think that's so bad, within reason. The other thing to avoid is running for tools and materials you don't have on hand. 

Planning wise, are you going to pigtail everything? 

Even in commercial work you probably drill enough wood that you know this, but today's impact drivers with spade bits is a real game changer for wood frame construction. If you have a Milwaukee M18 impact with two of the 5.0 batteries and plenty of 7/8" Bosch Daredevil bits, you're loaded for bear, just spits a shower of sawdust ... until you hit a nail. The Daredevil bits are toast the first time they touch a nail. So you'll want a nail eater auger bit as well, and a file to sharpen it, and if you're lucky the Super Hawg with the clutch to drive it. 

If you agree with me that staples are for suckers, you'll want a bunch of these and small screws to go with:


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

If your not familiar with any type of engineered beams or floor joists, you need to read up on where you can drill safely too. I imagine you shouldn't have a lot of that going on in a 1500sq. single level home though... But not a bad idea.

What will kill you is the GC's poor scheduling of you and the other trades, this sucks on so many levels for so many reasons. You need to get straight with him and the other trades ASAP the schedule, what electrically they need, and what you are responsible for (Hopefully you already did that last one...).

This is especially important come trim time, how many trips do you want to take hooking up appliances and such...


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Expect the unexpected like drywallers mangling wires (which isn't unexpected for us guys who know resi).


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

Under cabinet lights..... If they have them, what type are they and get cabinet elevations and drawings...

Vanity lights.... What type? You may expect a bar light and put the box off center because the plumbers vent stack is in the center, only to find out that they switched to some decorative POS and now your stuck... 

Either figure out your lighting now, or get them to sign off on the rough locations.


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## Coach529 (Sep 20, 2016)

splatz said:


> Planning wise, are you going to pigtail everything?
> 
> 
> 
> If you agree with me that staples are for suckers, you'll want a bunch of these and small screws to go with:


Yes I was planning on pigtailing everything. 

Those little one hole straps are cool......I hate staples


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## Coach529 (Sep 20, 2016)

Switched said:


> If your not familiar with any type of engineered beams or floor joists, you need to read up on where you can drill safely too. I imagine you shouldn't have a lot of that going on in a 1500sq. single level home though... But not a bad idea.
> 
> What will kill you is the GC's poor scheduling of you and the other trades, this sucks on so many levels for so many reasons. You need to get straight with him and the other trades ASAP the schedule, what electrically they need, and what you are responsible for (Hopefully you already did that last one...).
> 
> This is especially important come trim time, how many trips do you want to take hooking up appliances and such...


Right now the house is empty, plumbing and HVAC is done, drywall is waiting on me.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

It's not my beat... but I know that you want the fully framed house all to yourself.

You want to come in AFTER the plumber and HVAC.

You want to come loaded for bear: so that you can slam it out.

You ought to PM lighterup.

Generally, stay with 14-2 as much as humanly possible.

12-2 will kill you... as the boxes are really sized for 14-2.

Be sure to use depth adjustable boxes where surface treatments get 'weird.' ( tile, etc. )

Rockers are prone to bury plastic boxes -- so don't hesitate to mark the floor -- and take digital photographs during the rough-in.

Again, don't expect to make any money. You'll end up with piles of partial materials:

Coils of Romex
Straps ?
Staples ?
Stackers ?

The seasoned guys will know all of the rules of the game right off the tops of their heads.

If you can possibly get a Residential veteran on your crew, do so.

It's better to share the profit// action than to own all the pain.

I've known Commercial j-men to attempt Residential. For them it was One and Done.

It's a 'kids game.'

Track shoes being essential.

The modern art also uses a TON of cordless tools. Corded power tools are now obsolete.


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## Voltron (Sep 14, 2012)

​


Coach529 said:


> Right now the house is empty, plumbing and HVAC is done, drywall is waiting on me.


It's always better to get in there first. You'll find that the tin knockers probably put their cold air returns in your prime real estate for switching, and that the plumbers put vents or water lines where your vanity lights need to be etc. All this adds up.


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## bostonPedro (Nov 14, 2017)

Lots of good advice here and YES you will have a tendency to overbuild as someone stated.....I spent most of my career doing industrial and commercial and know that first hand. 
Protect you wires that means use nail plates if you need to and avoid staples when coming down walls and instead use Colorado Jims or the red plastic wire supports sold at Home Depot. 
You will be slower than an electrician who does residential all the time just as they would be slower in your environment thats just how it goes so dont worry about that....just make sure you do it right and find that balance between good and fast


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## Coach529 (Sep 20, 2016)

Voltron said:


> It's always better to get in there first. You'll find that the tin knockers probably put their cold air returns in your prime real estate for switching, and that the plumbers put vents or water lines where your vanity lights need to be etc. All this adds up.


Unfortunately not my choice to be last....but at least I have the place to myself.


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## Coach529 (Sep 20, 2016)

bostonPedro said:


> Lots of good advice here and YES you will have a tendency to overbuild as someone stated.....I spent most of my career doing industrial and commercial and know that first hand.
> Protect you wires that means use nail plates if you need to and avoid staples when coming down walls and instead use Colorado Jims or the red plastic wire supports sold at Home Depot.
> You will be slower than an electrician who does residential all the time just as they would be slower in your environment thats just how it goes so dont worry about that....just make sure you do it right and find that balance between good and fast


Can you explain the use of Colorado jims? and vertical staples?


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

A couple recent threads to check out...

Stackers or 2x4's 

Residential Questiosn


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

Never look the GC in the eye and use lots of lube.


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## bostonPedro (Nov 14, 2017)

Coach529 said:


> Can you explain the use of Colorado jims? and vertical staples?


Colorados keep the wire out from the stud whereas staples they are on the stud. If you have ever worked with ****ty sheetrockers it makes a difference. I would rather use Colorados as there is a much less chance of a sheetrocker hitting a wire now if the sheetrockers are good it doesn't matter but I had it happen one time and that was enough for me. 
Sheetrocker apparently had longer screws in his pouch and decided he could use them along with the 1 5/8 and missed the stud and went into a wire


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Colorado Jim - CJ-6 from ERICO.

AKA CADDY.


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## Coach529 (Sep 20, 2016)

Thanks everybody!!


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## Coach529 (Sep 20, 2016)

Like I mentioned........not a very complex house. Small and pretty simple.


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## Coach529 (Sep 20, 2016)

Circuits


20A, Kitchen Counter #1
20A, Kitchen Counter #2/ Island
20A, Fridge
20A, Disposal/ Dishwasher
20A, Small Appliance
20A, Bath/ Bath
15A AFCI, Master/ Bonus
15A AFCI, Family/ Bed/ Bed
15A, Lighting
15A, Lighting
20A, Washer
60A, Heat Pump
30A, Water Heater
20A, Forced Air Furnace


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Heat pump has two boosters, then ?


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Range?


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## Voltron (Sep 14, 2012)

AC, Sump, garage door opener, microwave, dryer, range (probably gas)??


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Coach529 said:


> Like I mentioned........not a very complex house. Small and pretty simple.


I would be around $20K and still lose money.....
I could sub it out for $15K and make money.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Coach529 said:


> Circuits
> 
> 
> 20A, Kitchen Counter #1
> ...


What code cycle? Because there is no way you are getting by with only 2 AFCI's on the 2017


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## Coach529 (Sep 20, 2016)

splatz said:


> Range?


Gas range.


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## Coach529 (Sep 20, 2016)

Voltron said:


> AC, Sump, garage door opener, microwave, dryer, range (probably gas)??


AC is on there.

No garage

Microwave is on small appliance

Dryer I missed

Range is gas


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## Coach529 (Sep 20, 2016)

Circuits, updated 2-12


20A, Kitchen Counter #1
20A, Kitchen Counter #2/ Island
20A, Fridge
20A, Disposal/ Dishwasher
20A, Small Appliance
20A, Bath/ Bath
15A AFCI, Master/ Bonus
15A AFCI, Family/ Bed/ Bed
15A AFCI, Smokes
15A, Lighting
15A, Lighting
20A, Washer
30A, Dryer
60A, Heat Pump
30A, Water Heater
20A, Forced Air Furnace


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## Coach529 (Sep 20, 2016)

sbrn33 said:


> what code cycle? Because there is no way you are getting by with only 2 afci's on the 2017


2017


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Coach529 said:


> 2017


You may want to read up on your AFCI/GFCI requirements. I don't see anyway you get by with only two.


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## Voltron (Sep 14, 2012)

That's all we ever had here was bedrooms, but now they have done away with that.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Coach529 said:


> AC is on there.
> 
> No garage
> 
> ...


Gas range still needs a power source for the igniters.


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## Arrow3030 (Mar 12, 2014)

Gas range needs a hood too. I try to get specs for those so the power is in the right spot. Some are cord and plug too.

Same goes for the range. The window for where the receptacle goes means you'll want those specs now.

You may be using 20 when 15 is good enough for the FAU and fridge but no BFD.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

Coach529 said:


> Circuits, updated 2-12
> 
> 
> 20A, Kitchen Counter #1
> ...


FYI
2017 NEC requires AFCI in kitchens now. Check your
Idaho State web site for any exclusions...

One example: 
Ohio wrote codified ordinance in resi code that we do 
not have to afci the kitchen countertop gfci outlet 
receptacles.
Also , we do not Have to gfci the dishwasher but afci is
still required for it (otherwise dual function would have
been in play for this)
Also Microwave circuit and Refer circuit have to be AFCI
(sucks I know)

2017 requires 
1) afci and gfci of Laundry 120 volt outlet receptacles
so I use dual function circuit breaker (must be 20 
amp circuit)
2) Any room that is a finished "living space" requires AFCI
not just bedrooms anymore
3) garages do not need to be AFCI
4) Unfinished basements do not have to be AFCI but
any outlet receptacles except for alarm circuit) have
to be gfci protected
Exception in Ohio...per codified ordinance a sump pump 
can have a non gfci outlet receptacle IF you install a
gfci receptacle within 6' of it.
5) Check your state for smoke alarm , heat detectors
or carbon monoxide detectors rules..Note: Here some
local muni govts. expand on this..example REQUIRE
photo electrics mokes / no Ionization smokes

Forgot to say

normally when I see a 60 amp heat pump , My next question for
HVAC would be specs on the air handler cause these 60 amp
heat pumps usually accompany an all electric furnace (not gas)
so watch out for that.

If you have an electric hot water tank , that's another clue for me
that there may not be gas at the home so watch for electric
range , clothes dryer , double oven??


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

*"normally when I see a 60 amp heat pump , My next question for
HVAC would be specs on the air handler cause these 60 amp
heat pumps usually accompany an all electric furnace (not gas)
so watch out for that."*

I've only every seen electric boosters mated to heat pumps. These are field installed at the last second -- the unit is designed to accept them without delay -- the HVAC dude orders 1 or 2 boosters. 

In Sacramento, 1 booster is sufficient. We rarely get down to freezing.

The Idaho panhandle will absolutely require 2 boosters. It's a true four-seasons climate.

At 60A, that's the implication... but this needs to be double checked with the mechanical contractor.

As I said, these boosters are field installed -- at the last second -- and you have absolutely no way of knowing what's to come unless the HVAC contractor gives you the heads-up.

When the heat pump boosters take astounding juice, it can be a Bad Day for the EC. He'll get the news long after the rough-in phase. Oh my !

Similarly, you sure don't want to wildly over-size your conductors.

It's a bigger deal than it appears on the surface.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Providing a disconnecting means // safety switch for the heat pump with 2 boosters is another PITA issue.

The boosters will be inside the residence, not outside with the compressor assembly.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

telsa said:


> Providing a disconnecting means // safety switch for the heat pump with 2 boosters is another PITA issue.
> 
> The boosters will be inside the residence, not outside with the compressor assembly.


I cannot speak for Idaho ( I assume a rocky type terrain with
granite close to surface perhaps???)

Here *Geo Thermal* is popular because easy digging is typical
and our frost line rarely gets below 2'-2 1/2' (feet) below
grade.

Normally these "heat pumps" are working as a secondary 
(back-up) booster for extreme cold days , other wise the 
main geo thermal unit is handling raising that water from
below and passing it thru the elements.

I cannot think of any time I ever seen a gas fired air handler
working in conjunction with an electric heat pump cause I
don't believe the coils are set up like that in a gas fired air
handler like they are in an electric furnace.

The most recent gep thermal units I wired for had (4) indoor 
240 volt disco's and the two outside that were A/C's in the summer 
Heat pumps in the winter.

I believe they were (2) 60 amps and (2) 30 amps and the two
outside were 50 amps each


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Now imagine if the EC got all of that wrong during the rough-in.

Yiikes !


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

lighterup said:


> FYI
> 2017 NEC requires AFCI in kitchens now. Check your
> Idaho State web site for any exclusions...
> 
> ...


Very good post. I am worried for this guy when he only has 2 AFCI's on his quote. He will have aleast 10 in real life.


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## Voltron (Sep 14, 2012)

sbrn33 said:


> Very good post. I am worried for this guy when he only has 2 AFCI's on his quote. He will have aleast 10 in real life.


Idaho resi code only requires afci on bedroom circuits just like Michigan did until recently.


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## Coach529 (Sep 20, 2016)

I inquired with the HVAC guy when doing a walk through.........he did not have a cut sheet for the Central Air, but told me it drew 43amps. Guess I will see when I get there. 

I honestly cannot find what Idaho requires for Arc Fault Breakers. Need to dig a bit more.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Coach529 said:


> I inquired with the HVAC guy when doing a walk through.........he did not have a cut sheet for the Central Air, but told me it drew 43amps. Guess I will see when I get there.
> 
> I honestly cannot find what Idaho requires for Arc Fault Breakers. Need to dig a bit more.


That's a totally insufficient response.

HVAC players can add a booster at the LAST SECOND.

He MUST COMMIT to a design -- BEFORE you begin to rough-in.

BTW, 43A at 240 seems a tad low for a heat pump with two boosters.

Yes, they are insane power pigs -- when they kick in -- which is when it's freezing.

No load has ever given me the headaches that heat pump boosters have.

Again, it's because the HVAC contractor -- and the homeowner -- will change their minds VERY LATE IN THE GAME. Yeah, they first thought that one booster was sufficient. Then they discover that one is not enough. So Mr. HVAC drops a second booster in -- it takes him but minutes to do so. They just slide into the chassis.

Then, they expect you to wipe up their mess -- and not charge them for it.

The cables involved get LARGE... quickly.

The Idaho panhandle is the wrong place to fly blind in the winter time. :vs_OMG::crying:


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## Coach529 (Sep 20, 2016)

telsa said:


> That's a totally insufficient response.
> 
> HVAC players can add a booster at the LAST SECOND.
> 
> ...


That is what change orders are for. I have it noted on my signed wiring agreement that we are supplying 60 amps worth of copper and a disconnect. Anything other than that and a Change Order is issued.


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## cdslotz (Jun 10, 2008)

I've seen commercial electricians run the hots to the light fixture outlets/Jboxes and drop a two-wire return to the switches, like you would do in a conduit job.

Don't make that mistake


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

@tesla, What is a heat pump booster? Are you talking about the electric heat strips?


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Coach529 said:


> That is what change orders are for. I have it noted on my signed wiring agreement that we are supplying 60 amps worth of copper and a disconnect. Anything other than that and a Change Order is issued.


In commercial, sometimes change orders are great, you can get greedy. 

With most residential new construction - homeowners or GCs - there is loooooong discussion and argument about whose fault it is that it was overlooked and whether it's really not in the contract. Much worse than commercial. 

I'd prepare a list of specific exclusions and email it to everyone you're in contact with. If you do that now, there won't be much argument later. 

Something like 



> All,
> 
> Please not that the following are not included in my bid, I just want to make sure we haven't missed anything.
> 
> ...


It will still be a change order - just won't be tempting to make it look like it's your fault.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

sbrn33 said:


> @*tesla*, What is a heat pump booster? Are you talking about the electric heat strips?


Essentially.

Described as 'boosters' in their own literature, they are nothing more exotic than ni-chrome resistance coils -- formatted to slide into a slot built into the heat-pump blower assembly.

I've never seen them referred to as a 'heat strip' as they look, format-wise, as if they were common air filters -- though a lot thicker... very rectangular.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

splatz said:


> In commercial, sometimes change orders are great, you can get greedy.
> 
> *With most residential new construction - homeowners or GCs - there is loooooong discussion and argument about whose fault it is that it was overlooked and whether it's really not in the contract. Much worse than commercial. *
> 
> ...


No kidding. 

:crying:


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## Coach529 (Sep 20, 2016)

Quick verification with an inspector today since I was have an inspection done.

_*AFCI protection shall only apply to all branch circuits and outlets supplying a bedroom.*_


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

Coach529 said:


> Quick verification with an inspector today since I was have an inspection done.
> 
> _*AFCI protection shall only apply to all branch circuits and outlets supplying a bedroom.*_


you guys up there are sooo lucky

Here , one would have to be on a job completely off grid for that


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## Arrow3030 (Mar 12, 2014)

As a suggestion, even with the slack requirement for AFCI I wouldn't run any MWBC.


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## Coach529 (Sep 20, 2016)

Arrow3030 said:


> As a suggestion, even with the slack requirement for AFCI I wouldn't run any MWBC.


Nope.....never do.


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

telsa said:


> Essentially.
> 
> Described as 'boosters' in their own literature, they are nothing more exotic than ni-chrome resistance coils -- formatted to slide into a slot built into the heat-pump blower assembly.
> 
> I've never seen them referred to as a 'heat strip' as they look, format-wise, as if they were common air filters -- though a lot thicker... very rectangular.


always been called heat strips or strip heat around here

I knew what you meant when you said "boosters" even though don't remember ever hearing that before


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Coach529 said:


> Quick verification with an inspector today since I was have an inspection done.
> 
> _*AFCI protection shall only apply to all branch circuits and outlets supplying a bedroom.*_


Then you are not on the 2017.


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## Coach529 (Sep 20, 2016)

The adopted the 2017 in July, but have made amendments on some articles.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

I always thought they could adopt the code but if they did they could not be less stringent.


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## Coach529 (Sep 20, 2016)

sbrn33 said:


> I always thought they could adopt the code but if they did they could not be less stringent.


Not sure.


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## 3DDesign (Oct 25, 2014)

Normally in Pittsburgh, a Heat and Electric Furnace take one - 6/2 60 amp for the Heat Pump and two - 6/2 60 amp for the Furnace. Most Furnaces have 2-60 amp breakers used as disconnect built into the furnace, but not all have it.


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## Coach529 (Sep 20, 2016)

OK so a question.

Obviously smokes on one AFCI.

Need to get all three bedrooms lights and recepts on AFCI's. Split it up and put it on two AFCI's? Lights on one, receps on another?


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

lately been running #12 to bedrooms, 3 bedrooms = 2 circuits, go ahead and mix up lights and receptacles, smokes on whatever 15 amp lighting circuit is convenient


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## WPNortheast (Jun 4, 2017)

The smokes draw negligible power and have battery backup, I always wire it to a bedroom circuit or some other AFCI protected ckt. Don't spend the bucks on giving the smokes their own breaker!!!


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## Voltron (Sep 14, 2012)

Put the master bedroom on one AFCI (lights and receptacles), and put the other two bedrooms on one AFCI circuit. The smokes can be on either One of those. Don't forget the one in the hallway needs to be a smoke/carbon monoxide combo.


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## Arrow3030 (Mar 12, 2014)

A 1500 square foot home needs 37.5 amps for general lighting. General lighting is all outlets in living spaces other than kitchen/dining/similar receptacles, laundry room receptacles, appliance specific outlets.

Bare minimum would be 2 20 amp general lighting circuits spread evenly in the home. I'd do no less than 3 15 amp circuits because the best part of resi is getting to use 14 gauge.

I have no problem putting lights and receptacles on the same circuit. One for the master, one for the two bedrooms and one for the living room should be fine. This is only 7.5 amps above nec minimum so adding another general lighting circuit for common areas/outdoor/*garage is not a bad idea.

*garage lighting only. Garage receptacles need their own 20 amp circuit and a receptacle for each parking space per 2011 (edit: 2014 i think) NEC.


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## Voltron (Sep 14, 2012)

Garage receptacles and opener can be on one 15A circuit. Usually pick up garage lights from a general lighting/power circuit that is light.


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## Arrow3030 (Mar 12, 2014)

Voltron said:


> Garage receptacles and opener can be on one 15A circuit. Usually pick up garage lights from a general lighting/power circuit that is light.


I'll tentatively disagree that garage receptacles are required to be on a 20 amp rated circuit with no other outlets...

Let me check...


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

Coach529 said:


> OK so a question.
> 
> Obviously smokes on one AFCI.
> 
> Need to get all three bedrooms lights and recepts on AFCI's. Split it up and put it on two AFCI's? Lights on one, receps on another?


Nah. Hit the master bedroom with a 15A AFCI circuit and do receptacles and the lights. Also hit the master bath lights. The other bedrooms share a 15A AFCI with their lights, and hit the smaller bath lights. No sense getting carried away on circuits, since a new house won't have any big loads plugged in. I usually hit the smokes off the master bedroom circuit and just hop 14-3s from there. Hit the island and countertops with 2 20A circuits, hit the dish/disposal with a 20. Throw that on a gfci breaker and then you can do a split receptacle under the sink. Hit the fridge with a 15 or 20. Since you aren't paying for a dual function breaker that's no big deal. We don't have AFCI exceptions in NH, so I throw the fridge on with the small appliance branch circuits that feed the countertops now, as it saves a 40 something dollar breaker. 

Buy a couple bags of stack-ems/stackers. Buy a bucket of insulated staples. No sense trying to use those little clips with a screw hole. They are too slow. You should be able to sink a staple into fresh new 2x's in 2-3 swings. If you don't have a romex spinner, buy a couple. I like keeping 2 wire on one of them, and 3 wire on the other. Buy a couple tubes of fire caulking since you probably have to fire caulk where you pop through the top plate into the ceiling. I am assuming this is slab on grade, so hopefully you already threw pvc or whatever in the slab for the island.


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## Coach529 (Sep 20, 2016)

Thanks. What stackers do you prefer?

Btw....house has a crawl space.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

Coach529 said:


> Thanks. What stackers do you prefer?
> 
> Btw....house has a crawl space.


We get the 3M ones since that's what is stocked. I've used the G&B ones and don't really care either way. 

Don't forget to fire caulk where you punch down into the crawl space.


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## Arrow3030 (Mar 12, 2014)

Arrow3030 said:


> Voltron said:
> 
> 
> > Garage receptacles and opener can be on one 15A circuit. Usually pick up garage lights from a general lighting/power circuit that is light.
> ...


It looks like I am wrong and the 2014 NEC doesn't specify that garage receptacles are required to be 15 amp.

But, if you're on the 2017 NEC there's a relevant section based on my Google searches not in the 2014 NEC.

Notable sections 
210.52(g something) in 2014, maybe 2017 too.

210.11(c)(4) in 2017 

I don't have the 2017 NEC yet.


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## Voltron (Sep 14, 2012)

Arrow3030 said:


> It looks like I am wrong and the 2014 NEC doesn't specify that garage receptacles are required to be 15 amp.
> 
> But, if you're on the 2017 NEC there's a relevant section based on my Google searches not in the 2014 NEC.
> 
> ...


Yes, you can run a 20A out there if you wanted but code minimum would be a single 15A circuit with an outlet for each parking bay. I believe the relevant change in new cycle would be that you cannot feed other receptacles from that circuit like outside gfi's.... etc. Typical 2 car garage around here would get wired with one 15A circuit to GFI, load out to second receptacle then out to opener.


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## Coach529 (Sep 20, 2016)

Any advice on pulling home runs?


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## Voltron (Sep 14, 2012)

Coach529 said:


> Any advice on pulling home runs?


No basement, no garage, crawl space only? Pull up into attic and and go. Have one nice common path and bring them down into the stud space opposite where your panel is going.


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## Coach529 (Sep 20, 2016)

Pull to the panel?


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

Coach529 said:


> Thanks. What stackers do you prefer?
> 
> Btw....house has a crawl space.


There are some requirements for crawl spaces &
"underfloor spaces"...

* need a switched light (210.70 (3) if used for storage 
or equipment..eg a side mounted hvac air handler etc..

* need a gfci outlet in each crawl space (210.8 (A) 4 )


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## Coach529 (Sep 20, 2016)

Well we made it through the rough in process with no corrections. 

Hours for the project are turning out great. If we can trim out in a respectable amount of time we will end up with about 25% profit with some very expensive labor (me and another higher dollar Journeyman).


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

telsa said:


> Similarly, Residential electricians will be a disaster as Commercial or Industrial electricians.


Not necessarily. If you are awesome like me, the transition is very smooth.


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## Coach529 (Sep 20, 2016)

Everybody and the neighbors dog pipes in about how we would not make any money...........and when we do all we hear is Crickets. Nice supportive group......


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Coach529 said:


> Everybody and the neighbors dog pipes in about how we would not make any money...........and when we do all we hear is Crickets. Nice supportive group......


I gave you a "Like" what do you want a medal? :vs_laugh: 

Kidding aside, way to go! Shows it can be done if you play your cards right. 

If you don't get more likes, dry your tears with Benjamin$.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Coach529 said:


> Everybody and the neighbors dog pipes in about how we would not make any money...........and when we do all we hear is Crickets. Nice supportive group......


Have you received your rough in payment? Is the service in and heated up? You should have around 80% of you quote right now. 
Don't brag until you are done sunshine. I am guessing you have around 2 day with 2 guys planned for finish. good luck.


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## Coach529 (Sep 20, 2016)

sbrn33 said:


> Have you received your rough in payment? Is the service in and heated up? You should have around 80% of you quote right now.
> Don't brag until you are done sunshine. I am guessing you have around 2 day with 2 guys planned for finish. good luck.


Not sure if I consider it bragging.....more of a thread follow up. Am I proud of it?? Hell yes.

A lot of key board warriors on here declared it a failure before it even started. Learned a ton, and should be able to apply that knowledge moving forward into hopefully better profit.

Not afraid of failure.....and would have reported it either way. Part of the learning process.

Yes, panel board is made up and energized.

Rough in invoice was sent and was paid in full. 

Trim out is estimated at 16-18 hours.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

You're going to be impossible to live with.


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## Coach529 (Sep 20, 2016)

telsa said:


> You're going to be impossible to live with.


My wife has been saying that for 25 years.:surprise:


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Now that you’ve done so well, are you going to move over to residential and continue to make the big bucks?


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## Coach529 (Sep 20, 2016)

eddy current said:


> Now that you’ve done so well, are you going to move over to residential and continue to make the big bucks?


No.......not at this time with the manpower I have.

Definitely not scared to do one to fill up the schedule though.


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## bostonPedro (Nov 14, 2017)

Congrats :smile:


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

I wish there were more very expensive highly
priced companies involved in residential. 

Not a jab ...we need you.


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## Coach529 (Sep 20, 2016)

lighterup said:


> I wish there were more very expensive highly
> priced companies involved in residential.
> 
> Not a jab ...we need you.


 no jab taken. Too many guys work for pennies for no reason.


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