# New 200A residential single phase service



## Northern Electrician (Jun 27, 2017)

Customer is building a new shop 30x60 and house. The house is 300 feet away from the shop. The shop being closer to the road is where we have decided to put the meter, it will be a 200a feed through meter panel. It has I believe 8 spaces and feed through lugs.

I would like to change out the feed through lugs to accept (2) 4/0 aluminum and from there feed the house and the shop from that 200 amp main. 

The panel in the shop is a 200a 32space and the house is a 200a 60space.

Can anyone tell me what might be wrong with doing it this way per NEC? Or anything the inspector might not like?


----------



## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

Well for one thing you better check and make sure the listing on the "meter panel" allows you to change the lugs. 

You also want to check the voltage drop on the 300 ft run.

Check with the POCO too.


----------



## Northern Electrician (Jun 27, 2017)

flyboy said:


> Well for one thing you better check and make sure the listing on the "meter panel" allows you to change the lugs.
> 
> You also want to check the voltage drop on the 300 ft run.
> 
> Check with the POCO too.


How would I go about checking the listing? 

Voltage drop will be factored in.

What is POCO? I'm guessing the power provider? I doubt they have much to say about anything past the meter, but I would interested to ask if you think they would.


----------



## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

So.....you're feeding 2-200a. (sub) panels (1 house, 1 shop) from 1-200a. combo meter/panel (service)? What do your load calcs. look like?


----------



## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

Northern Electrician said:


> How would I go about checking the listing?
> 
> Voltage drop will be factored in.
> 
> What is POCO? I'm guessing the power provider? I doubt they have much to say about anything past the meter, but I would interested to ask if you think they would.


Check the paperwork on the equipment. If there isn't a lug kit available for it then you can't change it. 

Power Company - I don't know your POCO so I would check the Engineering/Specification Book for services they usually provide for electricians.


----------



## Northern Electrician (Jun 27, 2017)

joebanana said:


> So.....you're feeding 2-200a. (sub) panels (1 house, 1 shop) from 1-200a. combo meter/panel (service)? What do your load calcs. look like?


Haven't done any, I have never done one for a home. Its a 2,000 sq foot home with a unfinished basement and a three car garage. The shop is basically a glorified garage with a welder recep. I should really talk the customer into a 100 amp panel for the shop.

Ill work on doing a calc later tonight, Ive never done one for a residence. Just the ones on my masters test


----------



## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Heads up:

The inspector is not going to like a lack of donuts nor hot coffee.


----------



## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

Northern Electrician said:


> Haven't done any, I have never done one for a home. Its a 2,000 sq foot home with a unfinished basement and a three car garage. The shop is basically a glorified garage with a welder recep. I should really talk the customer into a 100 amp panel for the shop.
> 
> Ill work on doing a calc later tonight, Ive never done one for a residence. Just the ones on my masters test


I was just wondering if they were going to be loaded up. The "shop" isn't what I pictured load wise. I would definitely downsize the 200a. for the shop.


----------



## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Northern Electrician said:


> Haven't done any, I have never done one for a home. Its a 2,000 sq foot home with a unfinished basement and a three car garage. The shop is basically a glorified garage with a welder recep. I should really talk the customer into a 100 amp panel for the shop.
> 
> Ill work on doing a calc later tonight, Ive never done one for a residence. Just the ones on my masters test


I used to live in Wisconsin before and just tell me which genral area you are in.,

I can able look up the wisconsin POCO regs pretty quicks due I dealt with three eastern wisc POCO often. 

2000 sq feet ? do the load caluations for home first then do the shop next to see where you stand on 200 amp service but next service size you will bump up is class 320 ( basically a 400 amp resdentail service. ) service.

and I know you mention distance between the house and shop that about under 100 meters ( about 300ish feets ) before ya start thinking of oversized conductors do the house caluations then do the VD ( voltage drop ) caluation to see what next larger UG conductors you can use. 

If you going to use 160 A caluation on home side then with 3 to 5 % voltage drop the conductor size will be either 4/0 CU or 250 alum ( that about the largest conductor size can fit in common 200 amp panels )


----------



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

frenchelectrican said:


> I used to live in Wisconsin before and just tell me which genral area you are in.,
> 
> I can able look up the wisconsin POCO regs pretty quicks due I dealt with three eastern wisc POCO often.
> 
> ...


In Siemens PL series they are good to 300.


----------



## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

IMO , when an HO is asking for 200 amps here and 200 amps there
with no real specs provided (at least not mentioned by OP) , I would
be the guy to tell Mr. or Mrs. HO , "if this is what your asking for ,
then I have to install a 320 amp service to split 160 amps per building
aside from the load calculation. 

If we are going by load calculations , 9 out of 10 times , you will not 
need (2) panels totaling 90 spaces , especially for a 2,000 sq ft house.
even if the home itself was all electric. 60 space panel? Nahhhh.

The reason I would do this is to cover my a**, because if HO is specking
out 200 amp panels each building they either do not know what their talking
about or , they may very well know but are not divulging true "future"
load requirements to electrician. Believe me , some will do this cause they
could be control freaks or just don't respect the electrician.


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

lighterup said:


> IMO , when an HO is asking for 200 amps here and 200 amps there
> with no real specs provided (at least not mentioned by OP) , I would
> be the guy to tell Mr. or Mrs. HO , "if this is what your asking for ,
> then I have to install a 320 amp service to split 160 amps per building
> ...



200 amps for a 2,000 sq ft house, maybe they have some medical plants going in after the house is built.


----------



## Northern Electrician (Jun 27, 2017)

This is the part number for the meter panel I will be using. I'm having trouble finding any answers to wether the feed through lugs are rated for two cables.

CMBX1212B200BTS


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Northern Electrician said:


> This is the part number for the meter panel I will be using. I'm having trouble finding any answers to wether the feed through lugs are rated for two cables.
> 
> CMBX1212B200BTS


The 400 amp meter bases we use have double lugs on the load side of the meter.


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

It is easier to just go 400 amps but the other option is to use a 200 amp meter base and see if you can get double lugs for it. If not than just add a small wireway under the meter and tap the fed from the load side of the meter. Meter to the wireway then out twice to the panels.


----------



## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Dennis Alwon said:


> It is easier to just go 400 amps but the other option is to use a 200 amp meter base and see if you can get double lugs for it. If not than just add a small wireway under the meter and tap the fed from the load side of the meter. Meter to the wireway then out twice to the panels.


Not very often you will see standard 200 amp sockets can take double lugs unless it have bolt on lugs then yes it can be done that way.

for the OP I think the best answer is get metermain combo so that should take care all the needs you will set up.


----------



## Northern Electrician (Jun 27, 2017)

MechanicalDVR said:


> 200 amps for a 2,000 sq ft house, maybe they have some medical plants going in after the house is built.


The finished area of the house is 2400 sq ft, the basement will be finished in the future and will be another 2400 sq ft.


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Northern Electrician said:


> The finished area of the house is 2400 sq ft, the basement will be finished in the future and will be another 2400 sq ft.


Even if the house had 7 1/2 tons of heat pumps with rack heat I can't see what they would have for 200 amps.


----------



## Northern Electrician (Jun 27, 2017)

frenchelectrican said:


> Not very often you will see standard 200 amp sockets can take double lugs unless it have bolt on lugs then yes it can be done that way.
> 
> for the OP I think the best answer is get metermain combo so that should take care all the needs you will set up.


I am using a meter main combo, it has 8 spaces and 200 amp main breaker feed through.


----------



## Northern Electrician (Jun 27, 2017)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Even if the house had 7 1/2 tons of heat pumps with rack heat I can't see what they would have for 200 amps.


Right, but using a 200 amp panel is for the space needed for today branch circuit requirements. I did the calculation on the house and its 155 amps. 

If I have to talk the home owner into a 100 amp panel for his detatched garage "shop", I will, but if there is a way I can give him what hes asking for and do it correctly without making him go with a 320 meter/service.


----------



## 3DDesign (Oct 25, 2014)

I just put an amp meter on an 1,800 sq ft home and measure 116 amps on each leg. That's without the pool heat pump they planned on installing.
240V Dryer, Range, 8 person Hot Tub, 2 ton A/C, pool pump, gas furnace, all running at the same time.

Based on that 116 amp measurement, you would need 300MCM AL to feed 300ft. The idea of a 400 amp meter base is a good one.


----------



## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Northern Electrician said:


> The finished area of the house is 2400 sq ft, the basement will be finished in the future and will be another 2400 sq ft.


see below for more details .,, I think you better stick at least full 200 amp for house side. 




Northern Electrician said:


> I am using a meter main combo, it has 8 spaces and 200 amp main breaker feed through.


I think it is not a really wise choice of that meter main set up.



Northern Electrician said:


> Right, but using a 200 amp panel is for the space needed for today branch circuit requirements. I did the calculation on the house and its 155 amps.
> 
> If I have to talk the home owner into a 100 amp panel for his detatched garage "shop", I will, but if there is a way I can give him what hes asking for and do it correctly without making him go with a 320 meter/service.


If the upstair is finshed then when they do the basement at later date that will really tax the system if you only put a smaller service run to the house escpally with 100 or 150 amp service size so I would recomoned get full 200 amp in the house on one set of service entrance and second one on smaller size which you can split 100 for garage/shop and other for second panel in the resdentail so you can use 400 amp metermain combo in that fashion.


----------



## Northern Electrician (Jun 27, 2017)

After talking with the POCO there is no cost difference on their end for a 320 service. So what I would like to do is a 320 meter on the shop, use double lugs on load aide, 4/0 to the shop (panel main within 8' no disconnect required). 350 kcmil to the house, (panel main with 8 feet of service entrance no disconnect required).


----------



## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Northern Electrician said:


> After talking with the POCO there is no cost difference on their end for a 320 service. So what I would like to do is a 320 meter on the shop, use double lugs on load aide, 4/0 to the shop (panel main within 8' no disconnect required). 350 kcmil to the house, (panel main with 8 feet of service entrance no disconnect required).


Which POCO it is ? if ya dont mind it .,,

that is not bad set up what you are planning to do that. However check the main breaker panel for the house side to make sure the main breaker lugs can fit with 350Kcm conductors ( some of the 200 amp main breaker can fit with 350's ) otherwise ya may have to make a changeover point from 350 al to 250 or 4/0 Copper to fit in the main breaker lug connections port.


----------



## Northern Electrician (Jun 27, 2017)

frenchelectrican said:


> Northern Electrician said:
> 
> 
> > After talking with the POCO there is no cost difference on their end for a 320 service. So what I would like to do is a 320 meter on the shop, use double lugs on load aide, 4/0 to the shop (panel main within 8' no disconnect required). 350 kcmil to the house, (panel main with 8 feet of service entrance no disconnect required).
> ...


Xcel Energy


----------



## Northern Electrician (Jun 27, 2017)

Largest the panel will accept is 250. Guess I'm going to have to splice on some copper after it enters the house .


----------



## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Northern Electrician said:


> Xcel Energy


I know that POCO very well it used to be NSP so I know their regs very well. that one of few POCO I dealt often. ( WPS and WE is other two I deal often too) 



Northern Electrician said:


> Largest the panel will accept is 250. Guess I'm going to have to splice on some copper after it enters the house .


Just a suggest for ya .,, why not make a splice box outside and make the connection translation from there from 350 al. to 4/0 cu. because you allready have a main breaker at the meter socket location so you will be fine with it. but the size of that box you will need at least 14 X14 X6 to fit in 4 conductors. 

the other reason why I put outside box due the ground moment in case a hard frost can shift the ground some so leave some slack in the box plus put a expandision coupling fitting on it too. ( I know it may take little more time but that way you dont have to mess with it later )


----------



## Northern Electrician (Jun 27, 2017)

Actually I won't have a main breaker at the meter, just meter and lugs. 

Putting the splice underground isn't really an option either because the HO has driveway there and I will be in conduit under the driveway into the house. 

Thank you for your advice!


----------



## Northern Electrician (Jun 27, 2017)

So here's something interesting, I looked up the wire rating.

Southwire triplex
300 al is 415a (direct bury) 320a (in duct)
250 al is 345a (direct bury) 265a (in duct)

So since some of my underground will be in a conduit( only about 60 feet) if I use their ratings not the nec I should be able to use the 250al triplex in duct current rating and still achieve a 175a load at 3% voltage drop in 300 feet. 

What are thoughts on this?

The wire type is XLPE not listed in my 2011 NEC table 310.15 b 16


----------



## Northern Electrician (Jun 27, 2017)

Northern Electrician said:


> So here's something interesting, I looked up the wire rating.
> 
> Southwire triplex
> 300 al is 415a (direct bury) 320a (in duct)
> ...


Would anyone use the manufacturers amperage rating over the NEC tables?


----------



## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

Northern Electrician said:


> Would anyone use the manufacturers amperage rating over the NEC tables?


No, i don't think i would. Unless the code specifically stated that i could. 
Isn't XLPE a cable?


----------



## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

flyboy said:


> No, i don't think i would. Unless the code specifically stated that i could.
> Isn't XLPE a cable?


If my memory serve me correct they can be either indivual conductor or cable assmably .,

The XLPE basically about the same as URD cable so they can buried direct ground. 

Northern Electrician.,,

Most of us dont useally follow the manufacter ampacity rating due if they are in the NEC code table listing we will use that first before we do use the manufacter listing. there is few and I mean very few specail situation that can be arise then we can use the manufacter specs. 

Just remember to pay attetion to the termation tempture rating that can change the tune of the game plan. 

And the other thing I just want to make my mind clear on this part are you plan to put the meter near the pole or near transformer pad ?


----------



## Northern Electrician (Jun 27, 2017)

[/quote]

And the other thing I just want to make my mind clear on this part are you plan to put the meter near the pole or near transformer pad ?[/QUOTE]

The meter will be installed on a building about 100 feet from the pole transformer


----------



## Northern Electrician (Jun 27, 2017)

frenchelectrican said:


> flyboy said:
> 
> 
> > No, i don't think i would. Unless the code specifically stated that i could.
> ...


Without looking up the reference I'm pretty sure even if the termination rating is say 60c if wire that is 90c is used the 90c raring can be used for derrating and adjustment, like voltage drop.


----------



## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Northern Electrician said:


> Without looking up the reference I'm pretty sure even if the termination rating is say 60c if wire that is 90c is used the 90c raring can be used for derrating and adjustment, like voltage drop.


Ya but the larger breakers you can use the 75°C termation rating so it may help a bit with conductor sizing there.


----------



## Northern Electrician (Jun 27, 2017)

So an update on this project. Inspector approved the 320 meter and connection to the 200 amp panel in the building to which it is mounted. Now that the house is up, I have trenched the house service, installed the panel, and called for a disconnect / reconnect so that the wires can be landed in the meter on the second lugs. POCO requires an inspection. The inspector passes it. POCO lineman says that there needs to be a disconnect installed for the wires going to the house. So I give him the 230.70 A1 and 230.40 exception 3 code references. He does some calling and tells me that our state code supercedes this and a disconnect must be installed. I really don't want to install the disconnect and add an equipment grounding conductor . Here is the reference from SPS 316.230

(2) NUMBER OF SERVICE−ENTRANCE CONDUCTOR SETS. The requirements specified in NEC 230.40 Exception No. 3 are not included as part of this chapter.


----------



## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

How can the state code supercede the local AHJ in this case? Does the POCO require it to be to state code? Sounds odd.

Usually state code only applies to schools, government buildings, hotels, or multifamily buildings where local authorities have adopted different codes. At least that's how it is in my neck of the woods.


----------



## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

I will review that com 16 part ( Wisconsin electrical code ) to see what is going on that part. 

Northen Electric .,, I will dig up and see how recent this code was changed.


----------



## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

There were some conflect on that code and the last time it was updated on that part was back in 2009 but currently I am not sure if they clear up that details.

I did email to the state inspector to clearify that part. so I should get his reply in little while.


----------



## Northern Electrician (Jun 27, 2017)

Yeah I'm not sure my the state code has to go above and beyond the NEC on this


----------



## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

I am checking it right now and seems not very clear on Com 16 part but I am aware of NEC code but Wisconsin code seems they muted it some degrees.

but I just want to clarify it the meter base is 320 class ( 400 amp resdentinal )

If so and you have one set of conductor going to the house but not the other set yet ?

and this is a single meter set up ? 

I am looking for correct answer on this details.


----------



## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

Neither of the code references you posted are exceptions to grouping service disconnects as specified in 230.72. You still need a disconnecting means for the service entrance conductors going to the house. I would have put in a 320A meter main with 2 200A breakers in it, as it would do everything you wanted to do. Now to satisfy 230.72 you pretty much have to rip apart what you did and add a disconnect adjacent to the main breaker panel you put in the garage. The inspector was an idiot not to catch that.


----------



## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

Going_Commando said:


> Neither of the code references you posted are exceptions to grouping service disconnects as specified in 230.72. You still need a disconnecting means for the service entrance conductors going to the house. I would have put in a 320A meter main with 2 200A breakers in it, as it would do everything you wanted to do. Now to satisfy 230.72 you pretty much have to rip apart what you did and add a disconnect adjacent to the main breaker panel you put in the garage. The inspector was an idiot not to catch that.


Yep...What he said ^


----------



## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

frenchelectrican said:


> I would recomoned get full 200 amp in the house on one set of service entrance and second one on smaller size which you can split 100 for garage/shop and other for second panel in the resdentail so you can use 400 amp metermain combo in that fashion.


This part I did mention earlier in the thread that why you can advoid the mess what you got now .,,

I would done that in first place.


----------



## Northern Electrician (Jun 27, 2017)

I would have, but I was trying to save the HO money doing what I thought was code compliant. 

Meter main is $1600, the 320 socket was $285. 

Now I'm looking at adding to 200 amp disconnects along side the 320 meter and adding the equipment grounding conducter. 

You live and you learn


----------



## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Northern Electrician said:


> I would have, but I was trying to save the HO money doing what I thought was code compliant.
> 
> Meter main is $1600, the 320 socket was $285.
> 
> ...


The only time I used the 320 socket when I have both panels right below of that meter like one house I done before when use both 200 amp panels so it was common on that but once you split the feeders ( one go to the house and other to garage ) ., the gig is up that what it nail ya. 

That why it become a SOP for me to run meter main combo for that set up.


----------



## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

Northern Electrician said:


> I would have, but I was trying to save the HO money doing what I thought was code compliant.
> 
> Meter main is $1600, the 320 socket was $285.
> 
> ...



You coulda got a Siemens 320A with 2 200a breakers from amazon for $492.94.


----------



## Mulder (Sep 11, 2010)

Northern Electrician said:


> So an update on this project. Inspector approved the 320 meter and connection to the 200 amp panel in the building to which it is mounted. Now that the house is up, I have trenched the house service, installed the panel, and called for a disconnect / reconnect so that the wires can be landed in the meter on the second lugs. POCO requires an inspection. The inspector passes it. POCO lineman says that there needs to be a disconnect installed for the wires going to the house. So I give him the 230.70 A1 and 230.40 exception 3 code references. He does some calling and tells me that our state code supercedes this and a disconnect must be installed. I really don't want to install the disconnect and add an equipment grounding conductor . Here is the reference from SPS 316.230
> 
> (2) NUMBER OF SERVICE−ENTRANCE CONDUCTOR SETS. The requirements specified in NEC 230.40 Exception No. 3 are not included as part of this chapter.


This also may be applicable. From SPS 316.230(3)

(3) SERVICE EQUIPMENT — DISCONNECTING MEANS. (a) General.
This is a department rule in addition to the requirements of
NEC 230.70: Disconnecting means shall be provided to disconnect the utility wiring from the premises wiring at any point where
utility wiring terminates and premises wiring extends overhead or
underground to more than one building or structure


----------



## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Mulder said:


> This also may be applicable. From SPS 316.230(3)
> 
> (3) SERVICE EQUIPMENT — DISCONNECTING MEANS. (a) General.
> This is a department rule in addition to the requirements of
> ...


I just got the email from one of my inspector in Wisconsin and he reply the same word as you posted Mulder.,

to Northen Electrician this is the key issue why your POCO was getting to the point there. 

they are really enforce this pretty good in Wisconsin.


----------



## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

deleted


----------



## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

deleted


----------



## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

Somehow I missed page 2 so my comments have been off.


----------



## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

Can you have separate services (fed from the PoCo individually), one for each building?


----------



## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

hardworkingstiff said:


> Can you have separate services (fed from the PoCo individually), one for each building?


Yes it can be done but some POCO will not do it due some POCO do not want two metering in same property zone unless there is a bit of distance then yes they can do that ( they will review case by case to make sure it is legit set up )

In OP's situation I do not know the distance between those two building so it can be a game changer on that.


----------



## Northern Electrician (Jun 27, 2017)

Going_Commando said:


> Northern Electrician said:
> 
> 
> > I would have, but I was trying to save the HO money doing what I thought was code compliant.
> ...



This is not an approved meter for the POCO, the lever bypass does not meet their standards.


----------



## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

That's too bad. Sounds like you have some fun ahead of you. The square D 200A enclosed breaker from home cheapo is probably the best deal going on a service disconnect, so I would figure out how to shoehorn that puppy in there somewhere. I assume you haven't pulled the wire in yet to feed the house, but you are gonna have to do some digging and re-route that pvc unless you want to play with a pull box.


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Milbank makes an awesome feed thru meter main. I can't imaging the lugs not taking a least 250 MCM.


----------

