# Most licensed electricians are hacks



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Did another rescue job this week. Same old story - GC failed after completing the job (kitchen, bath and basement remodel) and went bankrupt, licensed EC he used is long gone but left job unfinished and totally hacked up and full of mistakes and loose ends. I had to clean up his mess. 

I'm convinced that the majority of electricians out there are hacks that do terrible work. I live in heavily regulated state where everyone in the trade must have a license. Yet that system does little to nothing to stop this kind of thing from taking place. The majority of hack work I see is done by licensed electricians. Sure, there is some DIY stuff I have to clean up, but that's understandable. Professional electricians have no excuse. 

I think the overall quality of work has declined dramatically since I started doing this work 20 years ago. Has anyone else noticed the same thing?


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

MTW said:


> Did another rescue job this week. Same old story - GC failed after completing the job (kitchen, bath and basement remodel) and went bankrupt, licensed EC he used is long gone but left job unfinished and totally hacked up and full of mistakes and loose ends. I had to clean up his mess.
> 
> I'm convinced that the majority of electricians out there are hacks that do terrible work. I live in heavily regulated state where everyone in the trade must have a license. Yet that system does little to nothing to stop this kind of thing from taking place. The majority of hack work I see is done by licensed electricians. Sure, there is some DIY stuff I have to clean up, but that's understandable. Professional electricians have no excuse.
> 
> I think the overall quality of work has declined dramatically since I started doing this work 20 years ago. Has anyone else noticed the same thing?


All the time.

All those pics of commercial work in the Gems threads aren't done by homeowners.

All the trades became all about the money and forget the quality a while back.

You get what you pay for, lowest bids are for hacks!

Quality and cheap are polar opposites.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I am licensed and I literally did this a few hours ago.


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## varmit (Apr 19, 2009)

I agree, workmanship is a thing of the past in most cases. 

One common problem, is that many folks don't seem to have a "vision" of how things are supposed to be installed or how the installation will look when finished. If someone knows what they are doing, it takes no longer to do things neatly (and correctly) than it does to slop in some big mess that looks awful.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

MTW said:


> I think the overall quality of work has declined dramatically since I started doing this work 20 years ago. Has anyone else noticed the same thing?


I used to think I was just getting to be a grumpy old man, and that may be part of it, but I'd have to say that I do, just looking at the older work and the newer work in some of the old commercial buildings I work in, there's little doubt in my mind. 

Some of it is just a move to construction methods, materials, etc. that are geared towards low skill, brain dead installation and low cost. But that's not all of it. 

I hate to say it and it is certainly a generalization that doesn't apply to everyone, but the general quality of people entering the trades is declining and that's part of it. 

But the worst of it is the decline the work ethic and the idea of taking pride in your work, this used to be a common value, the new thinking is if I get paid I must have done it right.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

MTW said:


> Did another rescue job this week. Same old story - GC failed after completing the job (kitchen, bath and basement remodel) and went bankrupt, licensed EC he used is long gone but left job unfinished and totally hacked up and full of mistakes and loose ends. I had to clean up his mess.
> 
> I'm convinced that the majority of electricians out there are hacks that do terrible work. I live in heavily regulated state where everyone in the trade must have a license. Yet that system does little to nothing to stop this kind of thing from taking place. The majority of hack work I see is done by licensed electricians. Sure, there is some DIY stuff I have to clean up, but that's understandable. Professional electricians have no excuse.
> 
> I think the overall quality of work has declined dramatically since I started doing this work 20 years ago. Has anyone else noticed the same thing?



I have been in this trade forty years , and I saw the work decline before your twenty years even start.....



Actually, in the old days, a bathroom vanity light was slapped up with no regards to centering it in the sink or mirror. Same goes for bedroom fixtures, nearest joist was the target to the center of the room, not the real center. On commercial jobs, exactly 1/2 of the set screws on couplings were loose, while the guys installing the conduits spent ten minutes beating the locknuts so tight they are impossible to reverse to this day........


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

I've seen WAY too many guys hide behind their license. 

The general idea seems to be moving toward 'I have a license so I can work any way I choose. If you don't like it, too bad. Only licensed electricians are allowed to do electrical work'. 

Here in Nevada, where they don't license journeymen, everyone knows that if they don't produce quality work, and lots of it, they will be replaced by someone who will. 

Any time the government requires anything, there is always a negative aspect to the law. In 43 years in the construction trades, I have yet to see a positive side to licensing any journeyman.


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## trentonmakes (Mar 21, 2017)

splatz said:


> I used to think I was just getting to be a grumpy old man, and that may be part of it, but I'd have to say that I do, just looking at the older work and the newer work in some of the old commercial buildings I work in, there's little doubt in my mind.
> 
> Some of it is just a move to construction methods, materials, etc. that are geared towards low skill, brain dead installation and low cost. But that's not all of it.
> 
> ...


This!
Many out there dont take pride in the work.
Most of the wiring isnt even going to be seen by the customer, they just want it too work.
I think about the guy coming after me and what he will think when he sees my work. I dont want to think of someone complaining about my work. Plus i have always been the type to try and do things correctly. Granted, there are certain times and situations where I dont follow that or will fudge it too make it work, but for the most part I like to take pride in my work.


Texting and Driving


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Someone, somewhere, is looking at _your_ work, and sayin' the same thing MT.....~CS~


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## trentonmakes (Mar 21, 2017)

chicken steve said:


> Someone, somewhere, is looking at _your_ work, and sayin' the same thing MT.....~CS~


Someone may digup that post light i had to move 4 feet and wonder if I even used the heat blanket! LOL

Fu king pretzel has less bends on it! Lol

Texting and Driving


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

HackWork said:


> I am licensed and I literally did this a few hours ago.
> 
> View attachment 115946


I like the habit of raping tape around the termination screws on a device going into a metal box. :thumbsup:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

flyboy said:


> I like the habit of raping tape around the termination screws on a device going into a metal box. :thumbsup:


I'm a craftsman, I always do the extra work to make a job better.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

trentonmakes said:


> Someone may digup that post light i had to move 4 feet and wonder if I even used the heat blanket! LOL
> 
> Fu king pretzel has less bends on it! Lol
> 
> Texting and Driving


I walked off a job* where the GC decided to play EC w/o my knowledge 

Told the HO i'm _out, done, gone_. 

Found the next spark and told him the story

As i suspect there's 'more to MT's story' with this _'failed GC'_ .....

~CS~


* One of a number......all due to bum GC's that can't run a job....


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

HackWork said:


> I'm a craftsman, I always do the extra work to make a job better.


Grand, i'll send you some B2's for Xmas then....:laughing:~CS~:thumbup:


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## Max C. (Sep 29, 2016)

Sadly, your area is not alone MTW. In my town, there's a seemingly "well established" company (let's call them Cheap-Resi Electric) who prides themselves in speed-wiring spec-homes. Regardless if half the place is non-functional, or their copper is stolen due to somebody forgetting to put it back in the van (true story), they will work for you™ Its worth mentioning that these guys are unrelated to my Habitat For Humanity experience, by the way.

On the first day of my (short-lived) stint there, a journeyman asked me to install some under-cabinet lighting. Not only was there exposed NM cable running every which way under the cabinets, most of the lights already installed there were not even straight.

During that same day, the journeyman who was supervising me requested that flexible conduit be run for a furnace whip. According to him "it doesn't really matter if ya tape the conductors around those flex edges or anything, 'cause its not like this is going to be moving much anyway. Oh yeah, and its just 120."

(Still day one) There were a couple branch circuits which did not function correctly. One had a neutral issue (thankfully this was discovered quickly), the other was a water heater receptacle that was not getting power for reasons unknown at the time. Apparently, this was due to some "helper wiring things when he shouldn't have been." If somebody is not experienced enough to work on making-up boxes, don't let them! Needless to say, not the best way to start a Monday.

Later on that week, there was the safety-hazards aspect of things. Apparently, it was common practice for these dumbarses to get their third-year apprentices (and even helpers) working live. Its not even as if they were installing breakers using an insulated screwdriver. Nope. It was full-on tearing apart junction boxes, live. Getting shocked was seemingly common too, as both the third-year apprentice and the lead-journeyman's truck-driving brother (who "helps out sometimes") were bitten multiple times. Oh yeah, its also worth noting this was correction-work after that same inexperienced helper (the guy from day one) messed up due to a lack of supervision...yet again! Plus, the panel supplying that box was about ten feet away.

I quit that Friday.




HackWork said:


> I am licensed and I literally did this a few hours ago.
> 
> View attachment 115946


Gross! Come on Hax, where are the spade terminals :laughing:


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

There is always good, bad, and ugly done by licensed or not.


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## dmxtothemax (Jun 15, 2010)

Don't forget that developers and general contractors are always
looking for ways to do anything cheaper.
They can apply a lot of pressure on electricians.
So it's not always soley the electricians fault !
:no:


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

This all is the direct consequence of unlimited immigration... legal and illegal.

Trudeau openly expects the flood of Muslims he's begging for to enter the trades... and apparently... just the trades.

The issue isn't their birth place, religion, or accent... it's that Trudeau -- like all elites in North America -- thinks nothing of bombing the wage scale in the trades. 

He'd have a wholly different attitude if these new legal immigrants ( economic refugees ) were competing for HIS position -- and that of his buddies.

This is the great split. ALL of the elites standing at the microphone have positions that don't face any competition from economic migrants. Many actually benefit from this flow. It either suits their politics or fattens their wallets.

In the meantime, even the IBEW can't even hold wages steady against inflation. And it's one of the better unions in North America. Note how IBEW apprentice candidates are freaking out about their low entry wages these days. That used to never be the case.

What's been bad for electricians has been truly terrible for framers. Illegal Mexicans have largely driven native Americans out of the framing trade in all of the border states. ( tract home construction ) 

ICE once rolled up to a major tract and everyone fled in all directions. The only man standing was the bi-lingual GC super. (!!!) They had been building the entire tract with alien labor that in most cases had less than two-years experience.

This latter phenomenon exists because it's the habit for the illegals to fly back down south when the weather turns and construction becomes uneconomic. ( mud is so slick and heavy you can't walk on it. ) Consequently, a wholly new crew is assembled all over again next year, built around a cadre of semi-experienced troopers. 

Wage pressure at this end of the market affects everybody up the line.

CSLB ran a couple of stings. They stopped due to politics. 80% of those stung were Mexicans -- legal and illegal. ( Here we're describing the top man. His crew is sure to be illegals at the bottom end of the market. ) Jerry Brown didn't like the 'racist' optics of that. As a practical mater, only Whites have to have contractor's licenses. The laws are not enforced against Mexicans, not really. That's what being a sanctuary state really means at street level.

In sum: you've got merely the illusion that skilled hands are at work. You have a TON of monkey-see, monkey-do 'training' -- where (quasi) apprentices teach common laborers how to get by. 

&&&

These economic conditions existed in the late 19th Century and triggered the modern union movement. ( Samuel Gompers, et. al. )

Once immigration was shut off -- almost entirely -- the wages for tradesmen started to take off -- and join the rest of society. This was known as the Roaring Twenties. The demand for cars and pick-up trucks exploded because tradesmen -- and others -- could finally afford them. Their wages were rising at 4-8% per year. ( Depending on location -- the building boom in New York City was crazy at that time. Boom + no immigrants = massive surge in wages & strong unions )

North America can't survive as a culture if bombed by unrestricted immigration legal or not.

Most modern immigrants - the legal ones - are wholly alienated from American culture and values. It's strictly the Benjamins for them. They come from totally messed up societies dating back into antiquity -- and import their failed cultures right along with them. They are taught by our indoctrination centers that America is the problem -- not their crazy ideas and hatreds.

So instead of learning English and adopting America -- they pimp out our welfare state -- and scheme collectively to bleed us silly -- while rallying under alien flags -- and stomping on ours.


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

I disagree with the statement that says “a majority of licensed electricians are hacks”. I think a small amount are and they give our trade a bad reputation.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Chris1971 said:


> I disagree with the statement that says “a majority of licensed electricians are hacks”. I think a small amount are and they give our trade a bad reputation.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

Let's just be honest here, from a biology standpoint. The human animal is simply not meant to exist in the numbers that we do. We are only afforded such population numbers because we allow the weak to survive by protecting them from themselves.

At these levels, the hacks have to outweigh the craftsmen because there are more weak, purposeless people. It is inevitable.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

RePhase277 said:


> Let's just be honest here, from a biology standpoint. The human animal is simply not meant to exist in the numbers that we do. We are only afforded such population numbers because we allow the weak to survive by protecting them from themselves.
> 
> At these levels, the hacks have to outweigh the craftsmen because there are more weak, purposeless people. It is inevitable.


And the Code and modern materials actually permit lower levels of skill.

Example: the essentially general prohibition against MWBC in modern home construction. 

This takes residential wiring straight down to the DIY skill set.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

RePhase277 said:


> Let's just be honest here, from a biology standpoint. The human animal is simply not meant to exist in the numbers that we do. We are only afforded such population numbers because we allow the weak to survive by protecting them from themselves.
> 
> At these levels, the hacks have to outweigh the craftsmen because there are more weak, purposeless people. It is inevitable.


Time to start thinning the herd.....

if antifa starts a civil war many weak minded millennials will be biting the dust, making room for those with better genes and mental acuity.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

So this thread begs the Q, what are those who are so _discontent_ here doing to promote a _better_ trade for those up & coming?


~CS~


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

chicken steve said:


> So this thread begs the Q, what are those who are so _discontent_ here doing to promote a _better_ trade for those up & coming?
> 
> 
> ~CS~


Now that's a good question! When it was I guess you'd call it part of the culture, it wasn't really something you had to think about. 

Thinking about it, it's very very easy if someone is ready and willing to improve, it's impossible if they just don't give a ****, and it's pretty hard to make someone else care. The main way and maybe the only way to do it is by example. That and some good natured ball busting, which is fun.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

We already have mandatory licensing, apprenticeship, schooling for apprenticeship and continuing education. It takes 4 years of apprenticeship and 2 years of holding a journeyman license to be a contractor here. We have a permitting and inspection process and heavy fines for those that don't comply. What more do we need? Oh, maybe we need the electrical gestapo to make things better.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

MTW said:


> We already have mandatory licensing, apprenticeship, schooling for apprenticeship and continuing education. It takes 4 years of apprenticeship and 2 years of holding a journeyman license to be a contractor here. We have a permitting and inspection process and heavy fines for those that don't comply. What more do we need? Oh, maybe we need the electrical gestapo to make things better.


Yes i see you've *Authority issues* MT...

It's your OP, _you_ tell us what '_solution_' you'd recommend...

~CS~


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Can someone let Steve know I'm not directly responding to him since he's a pathological liar?


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

MTW said:


> Can someone let Steve know I'm not directly responding to him since he's a pathological liar?


Line forms to the rear lad....

Further, your state has an apprenticeship council that any spark and/or EC can join, promote, sponsor and support

There is also a IAEI branch that meets every other month 

I know, having held a MA license for a few decades....

Those are 2 options that '_police'_ the trade for it's betterment

I would encourage those so discontent here that joining either is like voting , in that one earns the_ right to b*tch_ when they do

~CS~


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

It's funny how everyone agreed with me and Steve is the lone contrarian. Who would have guessed?


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## electricalwiz (Mar 12, 2011)

MTW said:


> Did another rescue job this week. Same old story - GC failed after completing the job (kitchen, bath and basement remodel) and went bankrupt, licensed EC he used is long gone but left job unfinished and totally hacked up and full of mistakes and loose ends. I had to clean up his mess.
> 
> I'm convinced that the majority of electricians out there are hacks that do terrible work. I live in heavily regulated state where everyone in the trade must have a license. Yet that system does little to nothing to stop this kind of thing from taking place. The majority of hack work I see is done by licensed electricians. Sure, there is some DIY stuff I have to clean up, but that's understandable. Professional electricians have no excuse.
> 
> I think the overall quality of work has declined dramatically since I started doing this work 20 years ago. Has anyone else noticed the same thing?



I could not agree more 
I work in both NJ, heavily licensed and inspected and PA, no licensing and third party inspections 
You cannot tell the difference in the "quality" of work whether it is Residential or Commercial 
But I do the think the NJ inspectors have a superiority complex compared to PA


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

MTW said:


> Can someone let Steve know I'm not directly responding to him since he's a pathological liar?


Sure..I'll do it.

Steve , MTW wants you to know he's not responding to you cause 
you're a "pathological liar"..(his words , not mine).


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

I have a solution that some may like and others will be furious at.

Make electrical supplies (pipe , wire , equipment etc...) a controlled 
product that only certiified qualified licensed contractors can buy...

I'm now in a defensive "ducking" position...bring it on:smartass:


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

lighterup said:


> I have a solution that some may like and others will be furious at.
> 
> Make electrical supplies (pipe , wire , equipment etc...) a controlled
> product that only certiified qualified licensed contractors can buy...
> ...


That is a horrible idea. We've discussed it many times before. Furthermore, in this day and age of online sales, it will never work.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I like to be able to work on my own car or house if I so choose. I have people so to speak that I would rather have do things like plumbing or carpentry, but like to myself if its easy enough. I have an account at the plumbing supply house and would like to keep it that way.

I have been to PA for work and what little I saw was fine. Here we have licensing. I think if we'd go back to no licensing, all the idiots would come out of the woodwork and it may likely diminish the pricing, at least short term. Yes there are licensed losers here too. Do I relish the idea of driving to Mass tomorrow to sit as many as five hours to wait for an inspection, no, but would like to get paid.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

My answer to this? It certainly isn't more layers of government bureaucracy, joining organizations, more enforcement, and putting more power into the hands of the state to solve these problems. They already have lots of power and do virtually nothing to stop this. In fact, they simply cannot do anything to stop this. It's impossible. 

The problem has already been identified and that's lack of pride in one's work. That is a prevalent attitude today. How does that get turned around? Our whole society has to change because that attitude pervades everything, not just trade work.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

There is always going to be market pressures on any trade from changes in technology, new products etc. I do the best I can. Am I going to use MC instead of EMT in some cases, of course. I'm going to use romex where applicable too. The group that I'm part of watches legislation closely and works to amend, change things when needed. There are things I can change, a lot I can't, especially other peoples behavior.


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

telsa said:


> And the Code and modern materials actually permit lower levels of skill.
> 
> Example: the essentially general prohibition against MWBC in modern home construction.
> 
> This takes residential wiring straight down to the DIY skill set.


I still use MWBC in modern home construction. It hasn’t been eliminated. Lack of understanding has eliminated the MWBC.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Availability of two pole AFCI helps make that possible.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MTW said:


> The problem has already been identified and that's lack of pride in one's work.


I understand the "pride in one's work" thing when it comes to craftsman type work. But we really don't do that. 

People used to want brick houses built by professionals, now they just wrap plastic around their house put up by illegal immigrant laborers. That's one example but it's the same across all the trades. 

And electric is the worst one. All people want is for the switch to turn on the light and the receptacle to work. No one stands back and looks at the electrical work. As long as it works and is safe, that's all they care about.

Back when I was doing mostly new large commercial union work I would make things as nice and neat as possible. But for the last 5 years of focusing on residential service work I have learned that no one cares, they just want it to work and for the least amount of money as possible. Sure, they want it safe, but there is no craftsmanship expectation. 

I could run a brand new romex perfectly flat and straight down a beam to make it look great, but the customer doesn't even know which one is the one I ran, nor will they ever look at it. So while it looks nice, who does it look nice to? 

You can still take pride in your work, but the more important parts that the customer cares about. Picking up the phone or calling right back. Showing up on time. Doing the job as specified for the price agreed upon. Cleaning up and being neat. Fixing any issue that might arise, etc. Those are things that customers want and if you should take pride in providing.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Chris1971 said:


> I still use MWBC in modern home construction. It hasn’t been eliminated. Lack of understanding has eliminated the MWBC.


I agree, you always bring up such great points.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

MTW said:


> That is a horrible idea. We've discussed it many times before. Furthermore, in this day and age of online sales, it will never work.


I couldn't buy a gas furnace when I needed one..had to hire an 
HVAC co to come provide it and put it in.

Why doesn't our trade have similar "road blocks" for electrical
equipment?


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> I understand the "pride in one's work" thing when it comes to craftsman type work. But we really don't do that.
> 
> People used to want brick houses built by professionals, now they just wrap plastic around their house put up by illegal immigrant laborers. That's one example but it's the same across all the trades.
> 
> ...


I agree, you always bring up such great points.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

lighterup said:


> I couldn't buy a gas furnace when I needed one..had to hire an
> HVAC co to come provide it and put it in.
> 
> Why doesn't our trade have similar "road blocks" for electrical
> equipment?


Because the people who sell electrical products like making money, and cutting out a large percentage of their market does not make good business sense.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I don't know that there ever has been any, makes it tough to change.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

electricalwiz said:


> I could not agree more
> I work in both NJ, heavily licensed and inspected and PA, no licensing and third party inspections
> You cannot tell the difference in the "quality" of work whether it is Residential or Commercial
> But I do the think the NJ inspectors have a superiority complex compared to PA


Once again proving that the license is a worthless piece of paper.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

lighterup said:


> I couldn't buy a gas furnace when I needed one..had to hire an
> HVAC co to come provide it and put it in.
> 
> Why doesn't our trade have similar "road blocks" for electrical
> equipment?


Is that a state or local law? They prohibit anyone without a license from buying a furnace? Or was it just hard to find one because suppliers won't sell to you?


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> Is that a state or local law? They prohibit anyone without a license from buying a furnace? Or was it just hard to find one because suppliers won't sell to you?


A lot of HVAC suppliers won't sell them. It's not a law that I'm aware of.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

Around here, it's nearly impossible for anyone who is not a licensed HVAC contractor to buy a furnace. I don't know if it's a law or not but they'll tell you they don't want the liability of selling something that can kill people or start a fire to a non-licensed person. 

What about the liability of selling electrical material.....it can do the same thing.......


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

Chris1971 said:


> I still use MWBC in modern home construction. It hasn’t been eliminated. Lack of understanding has eliminated the MWBC.


Actually, it's the AFCI requirement that has cut out MWBCs. 

Though with more 2 pole AFCIs, MWBCs are making a comeback.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

That's what I meant, you said it better.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

lighterup said:


> I couldn't buy a gas furnace when I needed one..had to hire an
> HVAC co to come provide it and put it in.
> 
> Why doesn't our trade have similar "road blocks" for electrical
> equipment?


Do you hire tradespeople to do anything other than electrical work on your own home? I certainly don't.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

MTW said:


> Do you hire tradespeople to do anything other than electrical work on your own home? I certainly don't.


I had an addition built and yes I hired a framer a roofer , there was no plumbing and I did electric to include electric heat.

I hired a plumber on another job that was remodeling my bathroom , so 
my answer is yes...I hire other trades to do trade specific work. 

Note that I did not hire a handyman to handle anything. I believe they
are the hacks.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

MTW said:


> Do you hire tradespeople to do anything other than electrical work on your own home? I certainly don't.


My digging days are over.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

MTW said:


> Do you hire tradespeople to do anything other than electrical work on your own home? I certainly don't.


Also , the furnace I wanted was all electric heat. I wanted to get the
propane companies permanently out of my life . They are gougers.

No one ( a few places I checked with) would sell me a furnace
directly. They all wanted to use their preferred HVAC installer.

So , other trades do this , why don't we?


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

HackWork said:


> Is that a state or local law? They prohibit anyone without a license from buying a furnace? Or was it just hard to find one because suppliers won't sell to you?


I do not believe it's a "law"..I think it's the suppliers
of the various trades (HVAC & Plumbers) protect theirt
trades better than EC supply house do.(EC Supply house
will sell anything to anyone...local box stores would not get
me access to a furnace nor would HVAC SH's.


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## Lone Crapshooter (Nov 8, 2008)

As long as the licensing authority views licensing as just a revenue stream for their office and will not enforce the law you are going to have the trade over run with hacks. 
In my state as long as you send in your $50.00 you are qualified to do electrical work. continuing education is a big NO NO.
If they catch a brick mason sliding a box back on a piece of romex to make it work in his wall that is a $ 250.00 fine. They call that licensing enforcement. I call that something else 

LC


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

micromind said:


> Actually, it's the AFCI requirement that has cut out MWBCs.
> 
> Though with more 2 pole AFCIs, MWBCs are making a comeback.


Yes, that was my point about using two pole AFCI circuit breakers.:thumbsup:


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

lighterup said:


> I had an addition built and yes I hired a framer a roofer , there was no plumbing and I did electric to include electric heat.
> 
> I hired a plumber on another job that was remodeling my bathroom , so
> my answer is yes...I hire other trades to do trade specific work.


Well I don't. I enjoy being able to buy plumbing and HVAC supplies if I ever need them. 

What about auto parts? Are you in favor of restricting the sale of those too?


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Chris1971 said:


> Yes, that was my point about using two pole AFCI circuit breakers.:thumbsup:


I agree, you always bring up such great points.


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## Max C. (Sep 29, 2016)

At least in my corner of Earth, the main issue regarding _*licensed*_ hacks seems to stem from a rather bizarre inspection strategy. The modus operandi of Technical Safety BC (formally the BC Safety Authority) seems to be "inspect the new guys, while let the more seasoned ones go under the radar." In essence, any electrical contractor who has been in-business for less than a year will have an inspector come out to just about every single job. It doesn't matter if they're adding a keyless fixture to a garage, or wiring a shopping mall. So long as a permit is pulled, they will show up. After that, an inspector _*might*_ show up for an obligatory "two minute scan" from time-to-time (as if they properly inspect anything anyway), however that is not even a guarantee.
 
While this seems like a "logical" approach for some, keep in mind that (around here) plumbing inspections are performed by The City, and the inspection rate is 100%. You read that correctly, 100%. From day one, Mr. Habitat Electrician was extremely clear in telling me this - "with hack plumbing, you get wet. With hack electrical, people can get sent to the hospital or worse. Dangerously cutting corners in this trade is how people get hurt." Not such a logical approach to inspections now, is it.

The number of "seasoned" electrical contractors who take advantage of the obvious "start out good, then do whatever" loophole is amazing. The aforementioned "Cheap Resi Electric" (http://www.electriciantalk.com/f2/most-licensed-electricians-hacks-232370/#post4471778) has been in-business since 1994," yet their jobs resemble the work of a Craigslist handyman. 1/4" of exposed copper on Wago pigtails due to careless over-stripping, cables over-stapled, no sealing whatsoever on outdoor wall lights, an so so. "But hey, it least it was AFCI-protected! By the way, this is just the tip-of-the-iceberg when it comes to low-end companies in this town.

In my eyes, Technical Safety BC inspectors have their priorities, uh...bass-ackwards! They should worry less about busting new guys for "not liking how things are laid-out" (even if it meets Code) and "ground-pin-up versus ground-pin-down." Would a better focus not be checking-in with the "seasoned" guys in regards to basic common sense every-so often? The number of permitted hack-jobs would likely decrease, therefore. Then again, this is assuming every electrical contractor pulls permits...

Okay, rant over


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

The point of auto parts is a good example.

My SIL is an auto mechanic. You wouldn't believe his costs on parts.
Many are 50-80% lower than if I were to walk in and buy it.

So even the mechanics have protection for their trade.

What happened to us :blink:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

My brother lives in an apartment complex that is upgrading all panels for the installation of electric heat (they had a central plant before this) He looked in his new panel and there are all 20 Amp CB's, previously he had what you would expect 2-20's and 3-15's.

They also cut his phone line and denied it they also damaged the existing steam lines and flooded his place and are denying that as well and refuse to pay for any of the clean up.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Low bidder...


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## Bsully (Oct 3, 2015)

HackWork said:


> I am licensed and I literally did this a few hours ago.
> 
> View attachment 115946


Sure are living up to your screen name..


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Bsully said:


> Sure are living up to your screen name..


In that case, my screen name should be "AwesomeAndHandsomeElectricianWithAGiantDong".


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> In that case, my screen name should be "AwesomeAndHandsomeElectricianWithAGiantDong".


:no::no:


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## goodtimesgladly (Sep 12, 2017)

telsa said:


> This all is the direct consequence of unlimited immigration... legal and illegal.
> 
> Trudeau openly expects the flood of Muslims he's begging for to enter the trades... and apparently... just the trades.
> 
> ...


I am married to an immigrant and she is stunned at the shoddy work you guys describe and the attitude of some lazy Americans. You can not generalize all immigrants and put them in the same pot. This country was built on immigrants and my wife is one of them. My Grandfather came here from Germany and my Dad fought heroically for the USA against his home country so we could be free. I do agree we are importing too many people in this country. We need to stop the illegal immigration and get rid of the ones that are criminals and not contributing to society but The illegal immigrants are not the reason we have lazy people. It is the new generation we have that think we owe them a living. These millennials have no pride in their work, don't care if they show up on time if at all. If we get rid of all the illegals which is a good idea we will still have a bunch of young lazy Americans. Look around and tell me how many contractors my age in their 60's (baby boomers) act like these ass holes you describe. I do not care who I am working for or for how much money I make on a job, I do the same quality as if it is mine. I do not know what caused this cancer in our society but this country is going to hell. Actually I do know. It is the liberal policies taught in schools and coming from Washington. What ever happened to the Conservative attitudes and values that we learned from the Greatest Generation of a good days work for a good days pay? It now takes two people to do what one person used to do alone. That means my payroll has doubled in the last thirty years and I am getting less for it. I really feel sorry for my children and grand children because they will have to live with the consequences. Maybe we will get lucky and these losers will all move to California and then California will succeed from the Union. It is our only hope


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

goodtimesgladly said:


> I am married to an immigrant and she is stunned at the shoddy work you guys describe and the attitude of some lazy Americans. You can not generalize all immigrants and put them in the same pot. This country was built on immigrants and my wife is one of them. My Grandfather came here from Germany and my Dad fought heroically for the USA against his home country so we could be free. I do agree we are importing too many people in this country. We need to stop the illegal immigration and get rid of the ones that are criminals and not contributing to society but The illegal immigrants are not the reason we have lazy people. It is the new generation we have that think we owe them a living. These millennials have no pride in their work, don't care if they show up on time if at all. If we get rid of all the illegals which is a good idea we will still have a bunch of young lazy Americans. Look around and tell me how many contractors my age in their 60's (baby boomers) act like these ass holes you describe. I do not care who I am working for or for how much money I make on a job, I do the same quality as if it is mine. I do not know what caused this cancer in our society but this country is going to hell. Actually I do know. It is the liberal policies taught in schools and coming from Washington. What ever happened to the Conservative attitudes and values that we learned from the Greatest Generation of a good days work for a good days pay? It now takes two people to do what one person used to do alone. That means my payroll has doubled in the last thirty years and I am getting less for it. I really feel sorry for my children and grand children because they will have to live with the consequences. Maybe we will get lucky and these losers will all move to California and then California will succeed from the Union. It is our only hope


You need paragraphs.

National policy can't be driven by the personal.

It has to be driven by the general case -- 

of which we now have had DECADES of experience and millions to witness.

In the insurance industry this reality is known as the law of large numbers.

I can't properly judge one man. 

I certainly can judge 10,000,000 men, they are amazingly predictable, as a whole.

That's why national statistics are gathered in the first place.


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

HackWork said:


> In that case, my screen name should be "AwesomeAndHandsomeElectricianWithAGiantDong".


We could also call you Tiny Tim...:laughing::thumbup::laughing:


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## goodtimesgladly (Sep 12, 2017)

telsa said:


> You need paragraphs.
> 
> National policy can't be driven by the personal.
> 
> ...


Dang it. If I knew I was going to be graded I wouda done paragrafs.

Where I went to College if you are going to make a claim such as you did blaming quality electrical work on "This all is the direct consequence of unlimited immigration... legal and illegal" then where is your correlation? You can quote statistics but where in your national statistics does it show that "All electricians are Hacks" is because of immigration? 


Immigration is a serious issue but we can not blame all our troubles on it.
We as Electricians as individuals are responsible for our own work.


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## midnight-theme (Jan 3, 2015)

telsa said:


> This all is the direct consequence of unlimited immigration... legal and illegal.
> 
> Trudeau openly expects the flood of Muslims he's begging for to enter the trades... and apparently... just the trades.
> 
> ...


a lot of immigrants from central/south america are coming here because their home countries have been ruined by our interventions or punitive trade pacts, not because their 'cultures' have 'failed.' if you weren't a racist your response to desperate people coming here to make a living for their families would be to organize them into your union, support them and treat them as if they were human beings like yourself.


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## zac (May 11, 2009)

midnight-theme said:


> a lot of immigrants from central/south america are coming here because their home countries have been ruined by our interventions or punitive trade pacts, not because their 'cultures' have 'failed.' if you weren't a racist your response to desperate people coming here to make a living for their families would be to organize them into your union, support them and treat them as if they were human beings like yourself.


You gotta be kidding me! 
Have you any back ground of new world history 1492-1700s? The Spanish and Portuguese divided the new world by an agreemnent, defined by a latititude line when exploring (some would say conquering ) ... those countries. The concerned (all below U.S.) have had not such a free state of affairs or success as we and our northern brothers. 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

midnight-theme said:


> a lot of immigrants from central/south america are coming here because their home countries have been ruined by our interventions or punitive trade pacts, not because their 'cultures' have 'failed.' if you weren't a racist your response to desperate people coming here to make a living for their families would be to organize them into your union, support them and treat them as if they were human beings like yourself.


There's your indoctrination kicking in.

NAFTA has been a boon to Mexico -- signed by Bill Clinton.

America never had trade barriers with Mexico. Instead, Mexico City had barriers against the USA. So you've got EVERYTHING backwards.

Mexico crippled its oil industry by nationalizing American assets for pennies on the dollar. Then, after owning it as a state asset, Mexico's politicians looted it for generations -- stuffing their cronies into Pemex. 70% of its payroll was on political-warfare. 

Mexico prohibits the employment of Americans -- and rigorously enforces those laws. The result is that Mexico is starved for management talent.

This folly is COMMON south of the border. 

&&&

Holmes on Homes constantly cleans up after immigrant-contractors who attempt to build in Toronto the same way they did in the old country. It would be racist to show how consistently this is the case, so Holmes never, ever reveals the connection.

&&&

The plain fact is that tract construction in the lower USA is performed by illegals who can't read or write in any language. It's monkey-see; monkey-do. They can't read a map or diagram, either. 

The same holds true for the Muslim hijrah in Europe. The migrants can't read or write, usually -- not even in their own tongue. 

The world out numbers North America about 25 to 1. There is no way that North America can solve global poverty by importing it.

Those folks have to build better societies where they live. That's their only hope.

As it stands, the USA is attracting the most talented, motivated souls from the Third World, causing those nations to suffer. The brain drain of medical talent is extreme.

1/3 of American doctors were 'stolen' from the Third World. No wonder they've got crippled health care systems.


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## SydneyElectricians (Nov 1, 2017)

Hi MTW

I just want to tell not all the electricians are hacks. Maybe you had some bad experience but it doesn't mean all are the hacks. There are many who are dedicated towards their work.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Painting any faction w/bread brush is _poor_ policy
:no:
Are all Plumbers hacks? 
:whistling2:
Are all Doctors , Truck Drivers, Artists, or Photographers hacks?
:whistling2:
~CS~


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## SydneyElectricians (Nov 1, 2017)

HackWork said:


> In that case, my screen name should be "AwesomeAndHandsomeElectricianWithAGiantDong".





:thumbsup:


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

midnight-theme said:


> a lot of immigrants from central/south america are coming here because their home countries have been ruined by our interventions or punitive trade pacts, not because their 'cultures' have 'failed.' if you weren't a racist your response to desperate people coming here to make a living for their families would be to organize them into your union, support them and treat them as if they were human beings like yourself.


Unless "our" means the Spanish , what the h-e-double hockey sticks
are you talkinmg about....

I just know your not referring to any of the following....
(a) the French
(b) the British
(c) the USA ( and that silly thing called "The Monroe Doctrine" , which 
virtually every country south of the USA signed and then ignored.

...yep that the leaves the Spanish...heeeellllo?


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

midnight-theme said:


> a lot of immigrants from central/south america are coming here because their home countries have been ruined by our interventions or punitive trade pacts





telsa said:


> There's your indoctrination kicking in.


:thumbsup:


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

SydneyElectricians said:


> Hi MTW
> 
> I just want to tell not all the electricians are hacks. Maybe you had some bad experience but it doesn't mean all are the hacks. There are many who are dedicated towards their work.


Go read the title again. It doesn't say "All". He makes a decent case that does have a lot of evidence behind it. I would say that most butcher work I see is done by laymen, but many times I come across jobs that simply HAD to have been done by a licensed electrician that looks worse than some laymen.


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## FaultCurrent (May 13, 2014)

Blaming the immigrants is an age old tactic of some Americans. The Irish, the Chinese, the Filipino, the Puerto Rican, and now any Latino. In the industrial world the labor force is all Latino. They are doing work lazy Americans won't do and they come to work every day. They don't call in sick every Monday and bitch about everything at work all day long. I see it every day. Laboring all day dressed up in parkas and wool caps packing meat. Sweatshops. Manufacturing. The construction trade is dominated by immigrants, whether Chinese and Irish building railroads or Mexicans digging ditches. How many of you will send your kids to work in a sweatshop or picking lettuce?

You can blame a lot of this on the WalMartization of America. Everybody wants cheap, then they cry about jobs, and then buy cheap Chinese junk. Even here guys so proud of buying junk China Freight tools. Think there is no consequence? Factories offshore, factories in Mexico, and everything you buy is made somewhere else. Wall St makes billions, China is happy, and no more jobs for you. All of the old American institutions gone. Replaced by cheap China junk sold by WalMart, Home Depot, Lo's, or Amazon.

This filters down to the owners today, a few want quality (and they keep me in business), but most want cheap. They don't care about workmanship, slop it in and the light comes on it's all good. The contractor hires cheap labor and pockets the difference. The workers do what they are told, they do what they were shown to do, or worse, make it work using what they learned in Panama, the Ukraine, or Mexico. Make do with what you have, tape, wirenuts if you're lucky, who needs boxes or connectors. You see this garbage everyday, industrial has maintenance electricians who cobble together the worst work you can imagine. No doubt much of this work is done by so called electrical contractors. At the end of the day the customer is happy.

Profit is king, everybody wants cheap. It's the American Way. I got news for you, all those manufacturing jobs aren't coming back, Wall St doesn't want them back. Trump got shut down by his masters, he won't declare China a currency manipulator, eliminate NAFTA, or shut down America's chief source of cheap reliable labor, immigrants.


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

*Put your anme on it.*



splatz said:


> But the worst of it is the decline the work ethic and the idea of taking pride in your work, this used to be a common value, the new thinking is if I get paid I must have done it right.


I was taught that if you look at the job in the end you better be able to put your name on it. My jman would come up and say "Nope don't put my name on that job", then you would have to find out why. I have always went with that idea and when training someone I would approch it the same way, more jman should do that.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

FaultCurrent said:


> Blaming the immigrants is an age old tactic of some Americans. The Irish, the Chinese, the Filipino, the Puerto Rican, and now any Latino. In the industrial world the labor force is all Latino. They are doing work lazy Americans won't do and they come to work every day. They don't call in sick every Monday and bitch about everything at work all day long. I see it every day. Laboring all day dressed up in parkas and wool caps packing meat. Sweatshops. Manufacturing. The construction trade is dominated by immigrants, whether Chinese and Irish building railroads or Mexicans digging ditches. How many of you will send your kids to work in a sweatshop or picking lettuce?
> 
> You can blame a lot of this on the WalMartization of America. Everybody wants cheap, then they cry about jobs, and then buy cheap Chinese junk. Even here guys so proud of buying junk China Freight tools. Think there is no consequence? Factories offshore, factories in Mexico, and everything you buy is made somewhere else. Wall St makes billions, China is happy, and no more jobs for you. All of the old American institutions gone. Replaced by cheap China junk sold by WalMart, Home Depot, Lo's, or Amazon.
> 
> ...


You thesis totally falls apart as America is now a Welfare State.

These immigrants are wholly different: they are able to make their way because they are on the dole -- one way or another.

And many are destined to forever be on the dole.

This modern reality has been ugly for European Welfare States.

They now have THIRD Generation welfare dependants -- with brutally low IQs too.

Generations ago they bought your premise -- that one can equate the 19th Century Irish and the Chinese, et. al. to this new wave. 

Then Reality Struck.

The new waves are NOT assimilating -- they are displacing -- which is also known as population replacement.

You can go here and there in California and see entire neighborhoods dedicated to NON-English -- and waving alien flags, too. This last aspect was rarely seen in the 19 Century. And when it was, it triggered riots.

Wages in the trades NEVER rise with unlimited immigration -- legal or other wise.

Ask Samuel Gompers. 

*Nice Virtue Signalling, though.*


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## FaultCurrent (May 13, 2014)

Total racist baloney....most immigrants are not on the dole. Plenty of white and black people on the dole. The immigrants make money because they work cheaper and harder, nothing new there. Pay more and you might get a few white Americans to work these jobs. 

No doubt they drive wages down. But whose fault is that? Why do contractors hire immigrants at $15 an hour instead of your kids at $45 an hour? Blame the immigrant?

According to 2013 data from the U.S. Department of Agriculture, which administers the program, 40.2 percent of SNAP recipients are white, 25.7 percent are black, 10.3 percent are Hispanic, 2.1 percent are Asian and 1.2 percent are Native American.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

FaultCurrent said:


> Total racist baloney....most immigrants are not on the dole. Plenty of white and black people on the dole. The immigrants make money because they work cheaper and harder, nothing new there. Pay more and you might get a few white Americans to work these jobs.
> 
> No doubt they drive wages down. But whose fault is that? Why do contractors hire immigrants at $15 an hour instead of your kids at $45 an hour? Blame the immigrant?
> 
> According to 2013 data from the U.S. Department of Agriculture, which administers the program, 40.2 percent of SNAP recipients are white, 25.7 percent are black, 10.3 percent are Hispanic, 2.1 percent are Asian and 1.2 percent are Native American.


Gee with those stats you don't stop in my Wally World store. 

Everytime the farm buses are there the registers are over run with EBT cards and WIC cards.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

FaultCurrent said:


> Total racist baloney....most immigrants are not on the dole. Plenty of white and black people on the dole. The immigrants make money because they work cheaper and harder, nothing new there. Pay more and you might get a few white Americans to work these jobs.
> 
> No doubt they drive wages down. But whose fault is that? Why do contractors hire immigrants at $15 an hour instead of your kids at $45 an hour? Blame the immigrant?
> 
> According to 2013 data from the U.S. Department of Agriculture, which administers the program, 40.2 percent of SNAP recipients are white, 25.7 percent are black, 10.3 percent are Hispanic, 2.1 percent are Asian and 1.2 percent are Native American.


They free ride at every American emergency room. 

LA hospitals are CONGESTED with birth mothers from Mexico and other points south. In some, the ENTIRE maternity ward is Mexican. Anglos have fled. The staff speaks Mexican. 

( And no, Mexican is not Spanish. I've met Spanish educated graduates. They couldn't understand Mexican TV at all. It took them 90 days to get the lingo. This is why NO Mexican (popular) broadcast is repeated back in Spain -- and vice versa. That's how much the two languages have separated. Nothing like that occurs with English. Which is why British, Canadian, and Australian broadcasts are repeated here in America -- without editing or over-dubbing. )

Jesus Campos is almost certainly an illegal alien. MGM Mandalay LOVES them. They, MGM, go out of their way to hire them... which is flatly illegal. The PRIMARY employer of illegals is Big Business. Big Farmer, Big Casino, Big chicken processor, etc.

Tyson put an ENTIRE community on the dole -- replacing every native White or Black with Mexicans that it had gone over the border to recruit. To repeat: Tyson recruited them -- entire villages at a stroke. This was something seen in the 19th Century, too. 

Small businesses find illegals impractical as employees -- by and large. Who could use a foreigner that no-one can communicate to ?

Your ENTIRE thesis falls apart.

But I recognize your Virtue Signalling.


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## AlmostPro (May 29, 2017)

I am perhaps a bit late to this thread however as someone new to this trade and a bit younger guy I may have some insight. I will blame the schools, it used to be you had to work hard to earn that medal or to earn that stamp of approval form a teach or colleague. Now however everyone is a winner there is no trying to be better. Now this only applies to small margin of journeymen electricians here but still. Also I will agree with some other posts about if it's "cheaper it must be better". No one wants to pay for quality anymore they want to pay for speed regardless of how it looks. I have spoken to other trades (plumbers and hvac) and this seems to be a general issue even a guys on the GC crew have this problem. I have also been told that people used to care about the whole job not just their stuff but I guess that too has declined... I just pray I do better than some.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

FaultCurrent said:


> Total racist baloney....most immigrants are not on the dole. Plenty of white and black people on the dole. The immigrants make money because they work cheaper and harder, nothing new there. Pay more and you might get a few white Americans to work these jobs.
> 
> No doubt they drive wages down. But whose fault is that? Why do contractors hire immigrants at $15 an hour instead of your kids at $45 an hour? Blame the immigrant?
> 
> According to 2013 data from the U.S. Department of Agriculture, which administers the program, 40.2 percent of SNAP recipients are white, 25.7 percent are black, 10.3 percent are Hispanic, 2.1 percent are Asian and 1.2 percent are Native American.


"Immigrant" is not a race.


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## AmishCountrySparky (Mar 25, 2016)

I feel like everyone is missing some basic things in this bitch fest. You don't always know the circumstances someone was under doing the work. Sometimes you cant shut stuff down. Sometimes you have an hour and everything " better be done because were re energizing" . I try to do neat nice work but when your in a live panel where the last guy zip tied everything or made a spider web its not always possible. At the end of the day people just want stuff to work, and be done to code. Its all about the money. Neatness is great, but it doesn't always pay the bills. Maintenance guys need jobs too


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## Max C. (Sep 29, 2016)

AmishCountrySparky said:


> I feel like everyone is missing some basic things in this bitch fest. You don't always know the circumstances someone was under doing the work. Sometimes you cant shut stuff down. Sometimes you have an hour and everything " better be done because were re energizing" . I try to do neat nice work but when your in a live panel where the last guy zip tied everything or made a spider web its not always possible. *At the end of the day people just want stuff to work, and be done to code. Its all about the money.* Neatness is great, but it doesn't always pay the bills. Maintenance guys need jobs too


Absolutely true, Amish one.

In (say) an average spec-home, uber-neat panels, comprehensive cable-labeling, devices wired with side screws versus push-ins and so on is simply not the name of the game. A builder does not care if one can "do it better," so long as the job is _*on-time*_ and *on-budget*. Then you have commercial renovation projects, where every minute of store down-time counts. Point being, time and budget pressures run far and wide in this (and virtually every other) trade, and that is not likely to change any time soon.

That being said, I feel there comes a limit to time savings. A certain (nameless) electrical contractor in my neck of the woods regularly has their third-year apprentice and an untrained truck driver (yeah, seriously) to work on junction boxes live, and get shocked as a result. "Its just 120." Call me a stiffarse, unrealistic, or what have you, however when a breaker is ten feet away in a brand new house with no sensitive loads being fed from it...something isn't right with that picture! This was all while some unmotivated journeyman just stood and watched, by the way. Same goes with the majority of the content in ET's infamous "Gems Of The Trade" thread. Being efficient is great, though its certainly not worth endangering yourself and/or others over.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

RePhase277 said:


> "Immigrant" is not a race.


No, but it's_ used_ in the context of national xenophobia , the PC gestalt of the current administration. 

The _sad_ thing is, if America had a nickname, it would be '_immigrant_' 

Our history provides example after example of immigrants who_ built this country_ , honored via the inscription on the New Colossus

Right on down to our very _own _trade icon>>








.

~CS~


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

Someone please tell Steve that immigrants like Tesla and many others that "built this country" were proud to be Americans and they respected the title. This is different than the waves coming here today, many looking for a hand out, many others looking to transform this country into the chit hole they came from, and others still that would attempt to commit physical violence against existing citizens. They come here no longer proud to be welcomed as Americans, but contemptuous and hateful.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

RePhase277 said:


> Someone please tell Steve that immigrants like Tesla and many others that "built this country" were proud to be Americans and they respected the title. This is different than the waves coming here today, many looking for a hand out, many others looking to transform this country into the chit hole they came from, and others still that would attempt to commit physical violence against existing citizens. They come here no longer proud to be welcomed as Americans, but contemptuous and hateful.


Would a mod please explain to Mr 277 that the controvertial area is the place for such _flaming_ prejudices :no: 

thx

~CS~


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

chicken steve said:


> No, but it's_ used_ in the context of national xenophobia , the PC gestalt of the current administration.
> 
> The _sad_ thing is, if America had a nickname, it would be '_immigrant_'
> 
> ...


Your ignorance precedes you. 

No one has a problem with immigrants. You tell us that America is about immigrants as if we don't already know.

THe difference that you are too ignorant to understand is that our families came thru the hard way and worked their asses off. My grandparents learned English before coming over. They had no money but they worked for everything that they had.

They did NOT come over illegally. They did NOT receive countless welfare benefits for free. They did NOT push their way in. They came in invited and served their purpose to earn their welcome. 

They didn't break into the country illegally, use all the free healthcare and welfare benefits, not pay any taxes because they were paid cash under the table, and send the money to their family back in their own country.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

chicken steve said:


> Would a mod please explain to Mr 277 that the controvertial area is the place for such _flaming_ prejudices :no:
> 
> thx
> 
> ~CS~


I see no prejudices. I see straight forward honest speech.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

My wifes Mom & dad , Filipino born , became citizens cause her Dad
was offered Citizenship for him & his wife & kids if he joined the
US Army in WWII. He could have stayed in the (Filipino Army).

My in laws LOVE America . I'm not sure I can say the same about 
immigrants who escape & evade our laws...and let's not take it
lightly that Mexicans are under the assumption that Texas is actually
their land taken from them....(thus the attitude ._.what border_?


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## FaultCurrent (May 13, 2014)

telsa said:


> They free ride at every American emergency room.
> 
> LA hospitals are CONGESTED with birth mothers from Mexico and other points south. In some, the ENTIRE maternity ward is Mexican. Anglos have fled. The staff speaks Mexican.
> 
> ...


It's not a thesis. You are just showing what type of person you are and your educational level. By saying they don't speak Spanish in Mexico is like saying they don't speak English in Arkansas. The old stale arguments from the right wing extremists about anchor babies and every Mexican is on welfare may make sense to the uneducated but are just so much hate speech. Your rambling disjointed rhetoric is just sad.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

FaultCurrent said:


> It's not a thesis. You are just showing what type of person you are and your educational level. By saying they don't speak Spanish in Mexico is like saying they don't speak English in Arkansas. The old stale arguments from the right wing extremists about anchor babies and every Mexican is on welfare may make sense to the uneducated but are just so much hate speech. Your rambling disjointed rhetoric is just sad.


Who said that every Mexican is on welfare? Danny Trejo ain't on no welfare.

Your hyperbole won't serve anyone. It's time you step away and stop digging your hole deeper and deeper.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

FaultCurrent said:


> It's not a thesis. You are just showing what type of person you are and your educational level. By saying they don't speak Spanish in Mexico is like saying they don't speak English in Arkansas. The old stale arguments from the right wing extremists about anchor babies and every Mexican is on welfare may make sense to the uneducated but are just so much hate speech. Your rambling disjointed rhetoric is just sad.


well I have news for you. My in laws are Californians and
right from the horses mouth they are fed up with illegal immigration
there and specifically Mexican...they are not white people BTW
they are Americans first. Now who's acting ignorant?


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

FaultCurrent said:


> It's not a thesis. You are just showing what type of person you are and your educational level. By saying they don't speak Spanish in Mexico is like saying they don't speak English in Arkansas. The old stale arguments from the right wing extremists about anchor babies and every Mexican is on welfare may make sense to the uneducated but are just so much hate speech. Your rambling disjointed rhetoric is just sad.


But they DON'T speak Spanish in Mexico.

There are books discussing this very topic.

Yes, how to speak Mexican -- not Spanish.

They are THAT far apart... and obviously... you never been exposed to any of this.

Whereas I've had repeated exposure, on the job and in the home.

It took Spanish natives to point this out to me. 

*Your Virtue Signalling is not helpful when you generate your own 'facts.'*

BTW, the typical Spanish class in a Californian school still teaches Castillian Spanish, as if the kids are headed towards a Madrid vacation. (!) 

Likewise: Parisian French, Berlin German, etc.

All three nations have intense local dialects. See: "Pygmalion."

Mexico simply is a major cultural force -- much greater than modern Spain.

Deal with it.


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## trentonmakes (Mar 21, 2017)

telsa said:


> But they DON'T speak Spanish in Mexico.
> 
> There are books discussing this very topic.
> 
> ...


Its all Greek to me!

Texting and Driving


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## FaultCurrent (May 13, 2014)

telsa said:


> But they DON'T speak Spanish in Mexico.
> 
> There are books discussing this very topic.
> 
> ...


Since I know how to speak Spanish and you don't your opinion is meaningless. Spanish is spoken in Argentina, Cuba, Puerto Rico, Spain and Mexico. Different dialects but all Spanish. No such language as Mexican. Each region has different words and pronunciation. You are sadly misinformed. 

It's like saying we don't speak English we speak American. 

And what is your point except to denigrate Mexicans and immigrants?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

FaultCurrent said:


> Since I know how to speak Spanish and you don't your opinion is meaningless. Spanish is spoken in Argentina, Cuba, Puerto Rico, Spain and Mexico. Different dialects but all Spanish. No such language as Mexican. Each region has different words and pronunciation. You are sadly misinformed.
> 
> It's like saying we don't speak English we speak American.
> 
> ...


Lay off the Virtue Signalling.

It's not an argument.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

FaultCurrent said:


> Since I know how to speak Spanish and you don't your opinion is meaningless. Spanish is spoken in Argentina, Cuba, Puerto Rico, Spain and Mexico. Different dialects but all Spanish. No such language as Mexican. Each region has different words and pronunciation. You are sadly misinformed.
> 
> It's like saying we don't speak English we speak American.
> 
> ...


Again ...the issue is not "immigrants" ..it's "illegal immigrants"...
Two completely different subjects. Is it the fault of people commenting
here that most of the illegal immigrants are from Mexico and Central America?


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## GeneC (Aug 28, 2017)

I don't 100% agree that it's the electricians fault as much as it is the companies they work for. Many use an estimator/salesman then pressure the electrician to make it work no matter what to get paid. The result is a failure somewhere else and excuses. I can share so many stories, but I think point made. I am lucky that I am the one deciding how things get done and this is what it costs to do it right, no questions from anyone, just do it.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

GeneC said:


> I don't 100% agree that it's the electricians fault as much as it is the companies they work for. Many use an estimator/salesman then pressure the electrician to make it work no matter what to get paid. The result is a failure somewhere else and excuses. I can share so many stories, but I think point made. I am lucky that I am the one deciding how things get done and this is what it costs to do it right, no questions from anyone, just do it.


I've never heard of a residential company that uses an estimator or salesman here. It's usually the owner or journeyman doing the work that looks at the job.


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## FaultCurrent (May 13, 2014)

What the hell is virtue signalling?


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

FaultCurrent said:


> What the hell is virtue signalling?


Just type it up on the ol' clickity clack box what goes all the p0rn pics.


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## PokeySmokey (Nov 14, 2017)

dmxtothemax said:


> Don't forget that developers and general contractors are always
> looking for ways to do anything cheaper.
> They can apply a lot of pressure on electricians.
> So it's not always soley the electricians fault !
> :no:


 Actually it is still the licensed electricians final decision whether or not he/she will bend to that pressure or do the installation correctly.

Fully falls on the licensed electrician.

Walked away from many deals where builders, developers, etc have insisted I do faulty and/or illegal work. Even when I was under the employ of a company I was never fired for refusing to do faulty and/or illegal installations. I always gave the legitimate reasons for my objections and refusals and was backed up by senior management. More than once it resulted in the shutting down of critical production lines for safety and still received backing from senior management. Many of these refusals were before Job safety and work refusals were even thought about let alone implemented into Department of Labour Rules and Regulations, and Workplace Safety Regulations.

I agree that often it is Quantity first and forget about quality. This is not only occurring in the trades but in almost all sectors of the economic machine.

BUT: This practice is starting to come back and take huge bites out of the shareholders pockets. Look at the many recalls and class action lawsuits being filed and either won by the plaintiffs or settled out of court with huge payouts.

I could go on but this is enough for now.


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## GeneC (Aug 28, 2017)

MTW said:


> I've never heard of a residential company that uses an estimator or salesman here. It's usually the owner or journeyman doing the work that looks at the job.


Sorry, left out that most all my work is commercial and that's what they do here, even on service work. Also done on residential add on work, not service calls. Have become good friends with the electricians by helping them out sometimes, and I still get paid well for it but when I need to sub a job out I know I can count on them also. These are the guys that tell me all the politics, backstabbing and BS that goes on. The have bills to pay so the're stuck doing the best they can.


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## samgregger (Jan 23, 2013)




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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

samgregger said:


>


:lol::lol::notworthy::notworthy:


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

samgregger said:


>



The op is a hack.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Chris1971 said:


> The op is a hack.


We all can't be perfect like you.


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

MTW said:


> We all can't be perfect like you.


I know but, you can keep trying.:notworthy:


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## Knightryder12 (Apr 4, 2013)

RePhase277 said:


> Let's just be honest here, from a biology standpoint. The human animal is simply not meant to exist in the numbers that we do. We are only afforded such population numbers because we allow the weak to survive by protecting them from themselves.
> 
> At these levels, the hacks have to outweigh the craftsmen because there are more weak, purposeless people. It is inevitable.


I love the way you think RePhase. Just love it. :thumbsup:


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Knightryder12 said:


> I love the way you think RePhase. Just love it. :thumbsup:


He's an optimist.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

telsa said:


> He's an optimist.


Yep, I keep hoping for the collapse to get here already. I'm ready for a vacation.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

RePhase277 said:


> Yep, I keep hoping for the collapse to get here already. I'm ready for a vacation.


You've been praying for EMP delivered North Korean style.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

telsa said:


> You've been praying for EMP delivered North Korean style.


EMP, bubble pop, asteroid, zombies... whatever it takes.


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