# Fixture Whips



## k_buz (Mar 12, 2012)

I have differing opinions and can't find anything specific in the code....

Can fixture whips lay on a grid ceiling?


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

k_buz said:


> I have differing opinions and can't find anything specific in the code....
> 
> Can fixture whips lay on a grid ceiling?


What type of cable is it?


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

k_buz said:


> I have differing opinions and can't find anything specific in the code....
> 
> Can fixture whips lay on a grid ceiling?



2011 NEC..

_*300.11 Securing and Supporting.*_
(A) Secured in Place. Raceways, cable assemblies, boxes,
cabinets, and fittings shall be securely fastened in place.
Support wires that do not provide secure support shall not
be permitted as the sole support. Support wires and associated
fittings that provide secure support and that are installed
in addition to the ceiling grid support wires shall be
permitted as the sole support. Where independent support
wires are used, they shall be secured at both ends. *Cables
and raceways shall not be supported by ceiling grids.





.
*


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## k_buz (Mar 12, 2012)

Ok, but look at 348.30 exception 4


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

> 330.30 Securing and Supporting.
> 
> (D) Unsupported Cables. Type MC cable shall be permitted
> to be unsupported where the cable:
> ...


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

if the cable is resting on the grid, it is being spported by the grid: violation


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

wildleg said:


> if the cable is resting on the grid, it is being spported by the grid: violation


:no:


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## k_buz (Mar 12, 2012)

See, this is the exact argument we are having. I say it can, others say no.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

talk to your inspector. around here it's a fail, and arguing with the inspector or showing him a mike holt picture won't change that.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

wildleg said:


> talk to your inspector.



I agree 100%




> and arguing with the inspector or showing him a mike holt picture won't change that.


It is not just Holt, I could post other links as well, pretty much the same number of links that see it as you do.

I can find minutes from IAEI meetings in some areas where they say yes it can lay on the grid and IAEI meetings at other areas that say no you cannot.

Do a Google search for 330.(D) and you can find a ton of stuff with the results pretty well split. :jester:


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

k_buz said:


> I have differing opinions and can't find anything specific in the code....
> 
> Can fixture whips lay on a grid ceiling?


I can honestly say , I've never done that whether its legal or not . Having had more ceiling tiles than I can count that are no longer removable because every hack and their brother decided it was a good idea to let the grid be the cable support system ! It's not a question of legality , but more one of workmanship and caring about what you do .


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

k_buz said:


> I have differing opinions and can't find anything specific in the code....
> 
> Can fixture whips lay on a grid ceiling?


It doesn't take longer to do It right . The NEC is minimum accepted requirements too . In a situation such as fixture whips , are we really nickel and diming that bad ? Install a drop wire for the cable , or hang off the structure .


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## cultch (Aug 2, 2011)

That's a code I don't remember cause like wildleg said it's an auto fail around here. The ceiling will fail if ANY wire is touching the grid. LV whatever...

Good to know tho...


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

drumnut08 said:


> It doesn't take longer to do It right .


Of course it does. 

Throw it on the grid vs supporting it in some way. It will take longer.



> The NEC is minimum accepted requirements too . In a situation such as fixture whips , are we really nickel and diming that bad ? Install a drop wire for the cable , or hang off the structure .


Yes sometimes we are really are nickle and diming that bad when the entire job bid was won by nickle and diming of the customer.

Not my choice of ways to work but a reality of the current economy.


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## k_buz (Mar 12, 2012)

drumnut08 said:


> I can honestly say , I've never done that whether its legal or not . Having had more ceiling tiles than I can count that are no longer removable because every hack and their brother decided it was a good idea to let the grid be the cable support system ! It's not a question of legality , but more one of workmanship and caring about what you do .


So now I have to install another grid wire, flag it, and use a bat wing 30 more times? I would happily do it if its code, but if its not, no way.


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

k_buz said:


> So now I have to install another grid wire, flag it, and use a bat wing 30 more times? I would happily do it if its code, but if its not, no way.


Well , maybe I was taught differently ? Unless the grid support structure is more than a few feet above the grid , I've always used that to support my fixture whips . If g


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

drumnut08 said:


> Well , maybe I was taught differently ? Unless the grid support structure is more than a few feet above the grid , I've always used that to support my fixture whips . If g


If the grid support is impossible to reach through the grid opening , most ceiling guy will put in extra drop wires for you if you ask , free of charge . Take the drop wire and attach it to the grid with the caddy break away clips . Now you can batwing to your own wires all you want .


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

k_buz said:


> I have differing opinions and can't find anything specific in the code....
> 
> Can fixture whips lay on a grid ceiling?


I've never had an inspector fail a short fixture whip or jumper ( 6') as long as the cable is off the grid and supported by an approved strap ( bat wing style ) off of the grid wires . Just laying cables on a ceiling grid is a horrendous practice to get into and certainly nothing ill ever do . If supporting a fixture whip mean getting or losing a Job , you need to reevaluate your bidding process .


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

drumnut08 said:


> I've never had an inspector fail a short fixture whip or jumper ( 6') as long as the cable is off the grid and supported by an approved strap ( bat wing style ) off of the grid wires . Just laying cables on a ceiling grid is a horrendous practice to get into and certainly nothing ill ever do . If supporting a fixture whip mean getting or losing a Job , you need to reevaluate your bidding process .


While I do agree that it is a better job to keep the fixture whips off of the ceiling tile, at the end of the day I can't defect the job if they are. 

I can only enforce the NEC as written whether I think the work is hack or not.

Pete


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

Pete m. said:


> While I do agree that it is a better job to keep the fixture whips off of the ceiling tile, at the end of the day I can't defect the job if they are.
> 
> I can only enforce the NEC as written whether I think the work is hack or not.
> 
> Pete


Hey , the code is the code , but this is something I don't agree with and I'm sure in time will not be allowed . I was always taught its a bad practice and a last resort and I won't do it . This is a violation of ethics and workmanship in my opinion . If you're willing to let cable lay on ceiling tiles , I'm sure you're willing to not plumb or level a conduit run . My above ceiling work is as nice as exposed work an I get business based on that .


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

drumnut08 said:


> Hey , the code is the code , but this is something I don't agree with and I'm sure in time will not be allowed . I was always taught its a bad practice and a last resort and I won't do it . This is a violation of ethics and workmanship in my opinion . If you're willing to let cable lay on ceiling tiles , I'm sure you're willing to not plumb or level a conduit run . My above ceiling work is as nice as exposed work an I get business based on that .


The best ( only ) way to assure that it isn't allowed is to propose a code change.

I'm with you on this and have always (as far as anyone here knows - shut up AWG-DAWG:laughing supported fixture whips above the ceiling but I quickly learned, in being an inspector, that just because it isn't done the way I would do it doesn't necessarily make it wrong.

Pete


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

I would also point out that there is, at least to me, a big differance between dragging a group of a dozen cables across an entire grid vs a single 6' cable between fixtures.


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## woostaguy (Nov 19, 2012)

the idea is ....if for whatever reason that ceiling grid were to come down ( fire, demolition, ect...) that nothing electrical will come down with it..... everthing electrical is supported seperate, no exceptions no excuses!!


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

woostaguy said:


> the idea is ....if for whatever reason that ceiling grid were to come down ( fire, demolition, ect...) that nothing electrical will come down with it..... everthing electrical is supported seperate, no exceptions no excuses!!


That is your opinion but not a code fact.


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## Tec (Nov 26, 2012)

BBQ said:


> That is your opinion but not a code fact.


I have to agree with sweet Bob here. Remember, you could use tie wraps to hold thousands of pounds of MC up in a ceiling. It doesn''t seem like they care too much about what can fal during a fire.


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## btharmy (Jan 17, 2009)

woostaguy said:


> the idea is ....if for whatever reason that ceiling grid were to come down ( fire, demolition, ect...) that nothing electrical will come down with it..... everthing electrical is supported seperate, no exceptions no excuses!!


The fixture whip IS supported within 6' of the luminary by an approved means. The only thing touching the grid is a little slack between the last "legally required" support and the luminary. It's no big deal. Kind of nice to be able to move a troffer off to the side when you need to peek your head above the ceiling.


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

If the lights are supported independently of the grid, how is the whip between them coming down?


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

woostaguy said:


> the idea is ....if for whatever reason that ceiling grid were to come down ( fire, demolition, ect...) that nothing electrical will come down with it..... everthing electrical is supported seperate, no exceptions no excuses!!


I honestly think it comes down to how you were taught in the trade and what you personally consider an acceptable installation . For me , personally , I'm supporting fixture whips off the grid , whether the NEC tells me I have to or not . It's not a big deal or expense and clean / neat work often gets jobs over slapped in work . To each his own though . We all have our own opinions on topics like this . No harm , no foul .


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## k_buz (Mar 12, 2012)

woostaguy said:


> the idea is ....if for whatever reason that ceiling grid were to come down ( fire, demolition, ect...) that nothing electrical will come down with it..... everthing electrical is supported seperate, no exceptions no excuses!!


How do you support lay in fixtures? Screwing to the grid and "hurricane clips" are acceptable here. With both these methods, if the ceiling comes down, so are the fixtures.

The advantage of listed fixture whips is that it cuts time down. That is why you are able to buy fixtures pre-lamped and pre-whipped. If I have to go back and support the whips independently, there is no advantage to fixture whips.


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## Tec (Nov 26, 2012)

k_buz said:


> How do you support lay in fixtures? Screwing to the grid and "hurricane clips" are acceptable here. With both these methods, if the ceiling comes down, so are the fixtures.
> 
> The advantage of listed fixture whips is that it cuts time down. That is why you are able to buy fixtures pre-lamped and pre-whipped. If I have to go back and support the whips independently, there is no advantage to fixture whips.


Sure there is. You send your apprentice around with the shotgun-on-a-pole to hang wire. You use that wire to support the fixtures and the whips. Having to support the whip doesn't take away any benefit from having a fixture pre-whipped.


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## k_buz (Mar 12, 2012)

Tec said:


> Sure there is. You send your apprentice around with the shotgun-on-a-pole to hang wire. You use that wire to support the fixtures and the whips. Having to support the whip doesn't take away any benefit from having a fixture pre-whipped.


I might as well daisy chain the fixtures using MC then. Then I don't have the expense of piping those boxes to within 6' of the fixtures.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

you can zip tie modular whips in loops or to the bar joists, etc, just can't leave them laying on grid.


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## btharmy (Jan 17, 2009)

wildleg said:


> you can zip tie modular whips in loops or to the bar joists, etc, just can't leave them laying on grid.


Sure you can. As long as they are _supported_ within 6' of the luminary, the slack between the last support and luminary can touch the grid. It is supported by a legal means. Touching the grid is not the same as supported by the grid. The intent of the code is not to use the grid as the support method for your cable runs. Not that the fixture tails can't touch it. That's just a little extreme IMO. That would mean if my 3/4" run of emt touches something every 10' it is supported. Just because the tail touches the grid, it is not being used as a support as defined by the code. The support is already satisfied by approved means within 6'.


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## Elephante (Nov 16, 2011)

drumnut08 said:


> Hey , the code is the code , but this is something I don't agree with and I'm sure in time will not be allowed . I was always taught its a bad practice and a last resort and I won't do it . This is a violation of ethics and workmanship in my opinion . If you're willing to let cable lay on ceiling tiles , I'm sure you're willing to not plumb or level a conduit run . My above ceiling work is as nice as exposed work an I get business based on that .


Plus it's hard to open the tile when you have a 
mc cable above it.


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## woostaguy (Nov 19, 2012)

btharmy...when i look into a drop ceiling I would much rather move a tile than a lay in troffer....seriously? you move the light?


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## woostaguy (Nov 19, 2012)

btharmy said:


> The fixture whip IS supported within 6' of the luminary by an approved means. The only thing touching the grid is a little slack between the last "legally required" support and the luminary. It's no big deal. Kind of nice to be able to move a troffer off to the side when you need to peek your head above the ceiling.


 
A m/c connector is not an approved means of support.
A little slack touching the grid does not mean it is supported by that grid.
I follow the rule taught to me when i was just a lad that any conduit/wire must be supported within 6-12" from any box / termination point.


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## woostaguy (Nov 19, 2012)

k_buz said:


> How do you support lay in fixtures? Screwing to the grid and "hurricane clips" are acceptable here. With both these methods, if the ceiling comes down, so are the fixtures.
> 
> The advantage of listed fixture whips is that it cuts time down. That is why you are able to buy fixtures pre-lamped and pre-whipped. If I have to go back and support the whips independently, there is no advantage to fixture whips.


 
Inspectors around here require 2 points of support not incorporated in the grid, ( a tie wire on opposing corners ) then support your m/c from that tie wire. not difficult....


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

woostaguy said:


> A m/c connector is not an approved means of support.
> A little slack touching the grid does not mean it is supported by that grid.
> I follow the rule taught to me when i was just a lad that any conduit/wire must be supported within 6-12" from any box / termination point.


read 330.30 d 2

it may have changed since you were a lad


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

woostaguy said:


> A m/c connector is not an approved means of support.
> A little slack touching the grid does not mean it is supported by that grid.
> I follow the rule taught to me when i was just a lad that any conduit/wire must be supported within 6-12" from any box / termination point.





wildleg said:


> read 330.30 d 2
> 
> it may have changed since you were a lad


To speed things up



> 330.30(D) Unsupported Cables. Type MC cable shall be permitted
> to be unsupported where the cable:
> 
> (2) Is not more than 1.8 m (6 ft) in length from the last
> ...


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

BBQ said:


> To speed things up


dangit, how you gonna get people to open up their code books like that ?


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

wildleg said:


> dangit, how you gonna get people to open up their code books like that ?


Well ........ they might check it out to see if I am making it up. :jester:


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

BBQ said:


> Well ........ they might check it out to see if I am making it up. :jester:


Lol ! I know nobody is making this up , It's just not a practice I participate in . I do what I can to get my fixture whips off the grid . I'm certainly not strapping it within 12" of the luminaire all the time . I've been on many reno jobs where you go to move a ceiling tile a d it either doesn't move because of all the cabling laying on it , or a mess of spaghetti falls out of the grid . I try to avoid adding to crap work like this , as I'm sure most of us do . I never have the let the next guy worry about it mentality , because I could be the next guy .


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

drumnut08 said:


> Lol ! I know nobody is making this up , It's just not a practice I participate in .


 

That is cool but I am pretty sure the op was more intrested in the code than what each of us likes. 



> been on many reno jobs where you go to move a ceiling tile a d it either doesn't move because of all the cabling laying on it , or a mess of spaghetti falls out of the grid .


Again there is a big difference between a pile of spaghetti and a single cable 6' or less between a couple of fixtures. At least there is to me.




> I try to avoid adding to crap work like this , as I'm sure most of us do . I never have the let the next guy worry about it mentality , because I could be the next guy .


For me it depends on the job and I am often the next guy. 


All that said, I agree with Wildleg that each area is different and knowing the local interpretations is important.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

Just make sure you lay the excess flex on top of the fixture, then there is no code issue


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## woostaguy (Nov 19, 2012)

BBQ said:


> To speed things up


Thanks for the ref. clafirication.
but when my inspector says he wants more batwings in the ceiling( which they always seem to ) or I'm doing a new install prior to tiles being installed... I'm gonna support my whips, it just makes sense.
To me if I'm asking "do I have to ..." and checking code, I could be asking "should I" and doing it right.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

:blink: I never put so much thought into this. I maybe do 10 lay-ins a year unless we're doing a plant with office/control room space. If an inspector wanted extra wires and batwings they're gonna have to produce a adopted local amendment. 

If you want to waste time and money adding extra supports just cause that's your deal but don't act like you're better because of it. It's just electrical work :laughing:


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

Jlarson said:


> :blink: I never put so much thought into this. I maybe do 10 lay-ins a year unless we're doing a plant with office/control room space. If an inspector wanted extra wires and batwings they're gonna have to produce a adopted local amendment.
> 
> If you want to waste time and money adding extra supports just cause that's your deal but don't act like you're better because of it. It's just electrical work :laughing:


Nobody here is saying their way is better , but some prefer to do slightly above the bare minimum . Especially when it comes to something as inexpensive as a bat wing , lol !


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