# Commercial Service demo and re assemble



## failelectric (May 27, 2010)

Sounds like the j-men that work for your employer are panzies.


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## tates1882 (Sep 3, 2010)

failelectric said:


> Sounds like the j-men that work for your employer are panzies.


Politics man. If there was somewhere else to work in this area I would have been gone 1+ years ago.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

Although the mwbc are not grouped properly, they are grouped by conduit. Start there and label what you demo well. I mean really well. 
With a circuit tracer testing circuits first (and labeling) and nothing running (meaning, nothing plugged in) lifting the neutral one by one should give you a start on what the shared neutrals are doing. 

Maybe nobody in your shop wants to do this but you can pull it off.

Look on the bright side, it's not 3-phase.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Why would you care about what neutral belongs to which circuit?
I cant believe some hack would put that many conductors in that one conduit.
I see old jobs where guys install a combo panel outside of a house and pull all of the circuits through the feeder pipe. What a lousy hack way of doing something.
We cant even think of doing that around here anymore.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

He probably wants to re-group the mwbc in the panels correctly. Doubtful if an inspector could call him on it for not doing it considering that he's just swapping panels essentially.


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## tates1882 (Sep 3, 2010)

jrannis said:


> Why would you care about what neutral belongs to which circuit?
> I cant believe some hack would put that many conductors in that one conduit.
> Typical considering the age of the building. Its in the oldest part of town.
> I see old jobs where guys install a combo panel outside of a house and pull all of the circuits through the feeder pipe. What a lousy hack way of doing something.
> We cant even think of doing that around here anymore.


 
All MWBC must be grouped in at least one spot in the service equipment. Also having the place burn to the ground because the ungrounded conductors on a mwbc are on the same phase, so the no. 12 neutral conductor would have 40amps if both circuits are running at full load.


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## tates1882 (Sep 3, 2010)

Rudeboy said:


> He probably wants to re-group the mwbc in the panels correctly. Doubtful if an inspector could call him on it for not doing it considering that he's just swapping panels essentially.


 
The AHJ pet peeve is grouping of MWBC and tie handles. Also we have no rehabilation code here so anything that we touch has to be brought up to code. No exceptions. Lame


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Can you peel it off the wall in as big of pieces as possible?

Maybe dead-leg some stuff up with strut?

Can you float the whole assembly just off the wall on plywood sheets? 2x4's?

IDK, I'd think a five-gallon bucket of red wirenuts and stack of wire-labels was order of the day... Match '39' to '39,' wirenut, done.

I saw the gappage in the brick, that wall does look bad.... How is the GC supposed to fix it in one day? Simpson Steel straps?

It would really be funny if that was a spaghetti restaurant.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

tates1882 said:


> The AHJ pet peeve is grouping of MWBC and tie handles. Also we have no rehabilation code here so anything that we touch has to be brought up to code. No exceptions. Lame


Ewww.... you will have to mix and match everything to get the boat's to line up. Man, you will need some prep time for that... :thumbup: That 08 code is a pesky-thing with handle-ties and all. He isn't going to like the conduit fill? What about max 30 conductor cross-section in wire-ways?


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

tates1882 said:


> All MWBC must be grouped in at least one spot in the service equipment. Also having the place burn to the ground because the ungrounded conductors on a mwbc are on the same phase, so the no. 12 neutral conductor would have 40amps if both circuits are running at full load.


What about labeling them and putting them back on the same phase?


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## tates1882 (Sep 3, 2010)

miller_elex said:


> Can you peel it off the wall in as big of pieces as possible? Yes I could have but there was only two splices in the gutter above the panels most of the conductors were pulled through. I like to avoid splices if possible.
> 
> Maybe dead-leg some stuff up with strut?
> maybe
> ...


I ended up disassembling it piece by piece till all electrical was back at least 4' from the wall.


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## tates1882 (Sep 3, 2010)

miller_elex said:


> Ewww.... you will have to mix and match everything to get the boat's to line up. Man, you will need some prep time for that... :thumbup: That 08 code is a pesky-thing with handle-ties and all. He isn't going to like the conduit fill? What about max 30 conductor cross-section in wire-ways?


 All problems I'm in the process of figuring out. There are tons of tandem 20/20 amp CB, each one having half of boat on it and the next one down having the other half. So there are 2 full boats per every 2 CB. Hopefully the AHJ will let me make handle ties out of wire so I won't have to go buy any new CB or listed ties. As far as the fill goes I'm screwed if he won't let it fly, maybe I'll set a J box at the last coupling I split and re pipe everything in 1/2" emt.


jrannis said:


> What about labeling them and putting them back on the same phase?


The ungrounded conductors are labeled with what panel, what space, what type of CB but I didn't have a chance to trace anything so who know s what neutral goes to which MWBC.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

I always love being the hero, it's a rush, and people talk on and on about it. It's definitely worth the stress. It's almost got me laid too.

If the inspector turns you down on conduit fill, there's always those remodel connectors. That will make adding pipes after the fact a no problemo.


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## tates1882 (Sep 3, 2010)

*Update*









The copper thief got away with about 300' of no 10/12 thhn. And all the labels.








Heres what its shaping up to look like. The nail benders are going to sheet the wall. 








I have some stuff left to do. The panel location shifted to the right 15" so everything didn't line up again. Once the sheeting is on I can strap the pipes and secure the gutter. I had to field bend the 1 1/2" emt with a truck tire and lift. 
































Tomorrow I will re install the service entrance conductors and start to put the panels back together. Then start testing with some construction power. It sorta looks like crap but what'd you do. Once the grid ceiling is back in place everything with be concealed. This is the 2nd full day into the re Assembly.

More to follow.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Your pics did not come through.........


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## tates1882 (Sep 3, 2010)

miller_elex said:


> Your pics did not come through.........


 hows that


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## dowmace (Jan 16, 2008)

I see the pics, how was it trying to bend that 1 1/2" on the tire?


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## tates1882 (Sep 3, 2010)

dowmace said:


> I see the pics, how was it trying to bend that 1 1/2" on the tire?


rough but I only had to take 3" of kick out of both of the 90's.


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## tates1882 (Sep 3, 2010)

Not that any ones gives a dam but here is some pics of the finished product. The grid ceiling does back in tomorrow.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

aww sweet. 

The inspector didn't make you handle-tie all the MWBC's.

How did you get the twins up so high? Do they make bus-bars on the QO such that you can twin up high now? Hope you didn't have to spring for the high-dollar twins... Personally, I hate QO because the non-rejection twins are so expensive...

Looks good. :thumbup:


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## tates1882 (Sep 3, 2010)

miller_elex said:


> aww sweet.
> 
> The inspector didn't make you handle-tie all the MWBC's.
> 
> ...


 No tie handles. All the twins were in place already. The building is wired circuit heavy, one or two receptacles per circuit. In all reality they only need 1 panel.


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