# Grounds on Neutral



## FrunkSlammer (Aug 31, 2013)

This came up on another forum... wondering your thoughts. 

Do you know of any problems that can come up from terminating/landing the ground/bonds onto the neutral bar/rail of a main panel?










I have done this a number of times, because I hate some of the ground bars tucked up in the corner which are hard to terminate on, or it's an old panel and the ground bar is full and there's no space to add another. 

To me, the neutral bar is the same electrical point as the ground bar, so I don't see the difference. Yet other electricians say it should not be done. 

Thoughts?


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

FrunkSlammer said:


> This came up on another forum... wondering your thoughts.
> 
> Do you know of any problems that can come up from terminating/landing the ground/bonds onto the neutral bar/rail of a main panel?
> 
> ...


I'm thinking you not who you claim to be.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Not a problem. 
Most panels I use don't come with a "ground bar" and if it's the service it usually stays that way.


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## someonespecial (Aug 31, 2012)

Depends on if it is the main panel or a sub-panel


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

What kind of panel is that? I've never seen a ground bar that close to the breaker termination points.

Am I looking at it wrong?


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

FrunkSlammer said:


> To me, the neutral bar is the same electrical point as the ground bar, so I don't see the difference. Yet other electricians say it should not be done.
> 
> Thoughts?



With the increase in people wanting generators I believe its a good idea to separate them when changing a panel or doing a service upgrade.

It just makes it easier when the customer decides to buy a generator down the road and you install a service rated transfer switch. It's a pain separating the neutrals and grounds with a jammed panel.

When their separate you just remove the bonding screw/strap.


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

flyboy said:


> What kind of panel is that? I've never seen a ground bar that close to the breaker termination points.
> 
> Am I looking at it wrong?


 
Siemens panel

Angle of the photo makes it appear to be closer


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## daveEM (Nov 18, 2012)

I've never done it. In the pic with the ground bar available there would be no reason to I'm thinking. After all there is a Neutral and there is a Ground in modern electricity. 

I've been doing this a long time and just last December I did a service change and upgrade to a house. Be damned if the owner didn't call last month and ask to have the service moved to the garage and then UG to the house (remove overhead wires on her property). I'd have been cursing had I done what was done in the above pic, moving the grounds to their rightful place.

Oh, my panels inside look like that one. The move would have been easy. Still I'd not use the neutral bar for a ground.

I call HACK on that pic.


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## denny3992 (Jul 12, 2010)

All on one here unless its an upgrade and grounds are short... Ill add a bar and a jumper. i do however leave the top 4 spaces empty for a gen interlock future just incase!


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## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

I have never under any circumstances landed the ground wires on a neutral bar. Even in a loaded panel, I'll take the extra 60 seconds and land it somewhere on the ground bar. That kind of thing would not fly up here.


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## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

There is no separate ground and neutral bars in a main panel.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Deep Cover said:


> There is no separate ground and neutral bars in a main panel.


Not true. You would not be allowed to land a neutral on the bar to the right in that picture.


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## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Not true. You would not be allowed to land a neutral on the bar to the right in that picture.


You make a valid point.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

jza said:


> I have never under any circumstances landed the ground wires on a neutral bar. Even in a loaded panel, I'll take the extra 60 seconds and land it somewhere on the ground bar. *That kind of thing would not fly up here.*


 
Whats the reasoning behind that though when in a main panel the neutral bar is bonded anyway to the can?


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## BytheBook (May 29, 2013)

Our company policy is to always land the neutrals on same bar as main service neutral in case the bonding jumper rust's or is removed accidently. We generally try to keep the egc's and the neutrals on separate bars if possible.


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## daveEM (Nov 18, 2012)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Not true. You would not be allowed to land a neutral on the bar to the right in that picture.


Hey Frunk... do you do that? If not why not?


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## btharmy (Jan 17, 2009)

I have no problems with Landon the grounds and neutrals on the same bar in the main panel. I have has one inspector specify that they be on separate bars. His argument is that the grounds and neutrals are to remain on separate bars and only be connected by a properly sized bonding jumper. He says the jumper is the only means by which they should be connected.


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## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

For resi services we usually used CHBR or Homeline panels and they didn't come with a "ground bar". I'm not about to install a ground bar when there is a perfectly legal neutral bar to use.


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## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

btharmy said:


> I have no problems with Landon the grounds and neutrals on the same bar in the main panel. I have has one inspector specify that they be on separate bars. His argument is that the grounds and neutrals are to remain on separate bars and only be connected by a properly sized bonding jumper. He says the jumper is the only means by which they should be connected.


He can say whatever he wants, but does he have a code reference to back up what he says?


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

btharmy said:


> I have no problems with Landon the grounds and neutrals on the same bar in the main panel. I have has one inspector specify that they be on separate bars. His argument is that the grounds and neutrals are to remain on separate bars and only be connected by a properly sized bonding jumper. He says the jumper is the only means by which they should be connected.


You only need a jumper if you land a grounded conductor on the grounding bar. But certainly not vice versa.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

When I 1st came to Wilmington (NC), (1996), I was unemployed waiting for my test date (for the NC EC license) to come up so I went to work for a local EC (for ridiculously low wages) for a couple of weeks. I was told my work was good, BUT, I'm slow, :laughing: . 

Anyway, I made up a panel (main panel where the neutral bond was made) in a house and I landed the grounds and neutrals on the same bar (as allowed by the NEC) and got fussed at. Around here, we have to demonstrate to the EI that there are no ground to neutral connections after the main panel. So, I had to remove all the grounds and check each one to the neutral bar for connection downstream. Seems it's a lot faster to land the grounds on a separate bar that is easily isolated from the neutral and check between the bars.


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## SparkyDino (Sep 23, 2013)

When I have ground wires & no ground bar......................

I use those neat little threaded holes in the panel enclosure, spaced just perfectly for mounting a ground bar directly to the can.

It is almost like that's what they had in mind when they manufactured the enclosure.

Go Figure


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## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

meadow said:


> Whats the reasoning behind that though when in a main panel the neutral bar is bonded anyway to the can?


No clue. They're very picky up here. 

The only ground that is to be landed on a neutral bar is the main ground from the cold water bond or the ground plate. The casing is then bonded through the neutral bar bonding screw. If you land the ground to the casing and leave the bonding screw, you get a defect. ******ed, I know.

I'd love to know their reasoning.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

DH ELECTRIC said:


> When I have ground wires & no ground bar......................
> 
> I use those neat little threaded holes in the panel enclosure, spaced just perfectly for mounting a ground bar directly to the can.
> 
> ...


That's odd, do you have pictures for the reading challenged.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

btharmy said:


> I have no problems with Landon the grounds and neutrals on the same bar in the main panel. I have has one inspector specify that they be on separate bars. His argument is that the grounds and neutrals are to remain on separate bars and only be connected by a properly sized bonding jumper. He says the jumper is the only means by which they should be connected.


I think I might rip out the code change form from the back of the code book and hand it to him saying "you should fill this out and get that put in the NEC" :laughing: (and make sure I didn't work in his area again).


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

i have had all of those answers used on me! some times two by the same b.i. i figure theres some reason the mfg doesnt include a ground bar from the factory. because its only neccessary in some situations?:whistling2:


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## FrunkSlammer (Aug 31, 2013)

Seems to be another major discrepancy between jurisdictions and between electricians.

I usually use the ground bar, but I have landed grounds on the neutral bar quite a few times, for different reasons. Never been called on it, but BC Safety Authority doesn't seem to inspect very much these days.

Since it's electrically the same point where all neutrals and all grounds/bonds MUST tie in together anyway, I really don't see a problem with putting grounds/bonds on the neutral bar, as it's a better connection anyway. 

I do accept Flyboys & Hardworkingstiffs explanations of future proofing for convenience, in cases where you need to isolate ground for new equipment or testing/problem solving.

I take it neither NEC nor CEC have rules against it, it's just a personal preference. I'll opt for the ground bar in the future, except in cases where the main panel is too damn stuffed and too hard to get to the ground bar.


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## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

FrunkSlammer said:


> Seems to be another major discrepancy *between jurisdictions* and between electricians.
> .


I'd like to see something in writing stating you cannot land the grounding conductor on the same bar as the grounded conductor in a main panel.


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## FrunkSlammer (Aug 31, 2013)

Deep Cover said:


> I'd like to see something in writing stating you cannot land the grounding conductor on the same bar as the grounded conductor in a main panel.


Yeah me too.. I doubt there is.

But I also don't doubt some inspectors have gone apeshiit over the concept of doing so and forced sparky's to change it. Look at the responses in this thread, many guys VERY against it.. and eventually those same guys will become inspectors.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

btharmy said:


> I have no problems with Landon the grounds and neutrals on the same bar in the main panel. I have has one inspector specify that they be on separate bars. His argument is that the grounds and neutrals are to remain on separate bars and only be connected by a properly sized bonding jumper. He says the jumper is the only means by which they should be connected.


 
:laughing: ignorance is easy on his part. I would tear him a new one


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## denny3992 (Jul 12, 2010)

jza said:


> I have never under any circumstances landed the ground wires on a neutral bar. Even in a loaded panel, I'll take the extra 60 seconds and land it somewhere on the ground bar. That kind of thing would not fly up here.


At main service its all bonded anyway( down here that is)


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## Galt (Sep 11, 2013)

grounds and neutrals can only be mixed at the main. If you mix them at a sub panel and somehow the neutral conductor gets unhooked all the loads in the sub panel will try to run through all the grounded objects hooked to it.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

hardworkingstiff said:


> Around here, we have to demonstrate to the EI that there are no ground to neutral connections after the main panel. So, I had to remove all the grounds and check each one to the neutral bar for connection downstream. Seems it's a lot faster to land the grounds on a separate bar that is easily isolated from the neutral and check between the bars.


Good practice , imho, could weed out a lot of 'sins'.....especially in those service upgrades to older structures where we may be doing a lot of bonding.....~CS~


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

daveEM said:


> Hey Frunk... do you do that? If not why not?


Uhhhh, because its illegal


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

DH ELECTRIC said:


> When I have ground wires & no ground bar......................
> 
> I use those neat little threaded holes in the panel enclosure, spaced just perfectly for mounting a ground bar directly to the can.
> 
> ...


Oh my god, that's amazing!!


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## FrunkSlammer (Aug 31, 2013)

If anyone's curious.. this came off /r/electricians on Reddit.

Highly controversial issue. :laughing:


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## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

denny3992 said:


> At main service its all bonded anyway( down here that is)


It most certainly is up here as well. But they are crazy picky. Grounds for branch circuits go to the ground bars fastened to the the casing. Neutrals on the isolated neutral bars. Service neutral to the neutral bar and main ground on the neutral bar as well. Neutral bar and casing bonded via bonding screw.

******ed, I know. But if it's not done that way they'll write you up for it.


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