# Any ideas



## Julius793 (Nov 29, 2011)

Any ideas what this is?


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## Mich drew (Mar 3, 2013)

Julius793 said:


> Any ideas what this is?


Frankenstein knife switch ?


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## Julius793 (Nov 29, 2011)

Mich drew said:


> Frankenstein knife switch ?


Which was used? When where?


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## SparkyDino (Sep 23, 2013)

is that a water or gas valve right in front of it?


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## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

Might have originally been a motor starter, open like that on a slate board, might have been from the early 1900s. The two things on the lower left look like old "dash pot relays", they used to be used as current sensors, often used as overload relays in motor starters. Up unit the 70s, 3 phase motor starters only had to have two overload sensors.

The cylinder on the bottom of them is a little container of oil with a coil of wire inside that power flows through. At the top of the tank is an orifice calibrated to allow oil through at a specific rate based on viscosity. It operated a piston that hit the trip mechanism. As the current flowed it heated up the coil which heated the oil. The viscosity dropped, the oil expanded and flowed into the piston, raising it. They were very funky. I last saw one in the late 70's, but they were yanked out in most places because if the oil went bad, it was hard to get replacement oil, and it was a hazmat so you could not fly it on air freight.


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

Above the dash pots they probably used the 3 pole double throw knife sw to reverse it. First 3 phase power plant was Redlands power plant 1893. It looks like a meter above that. The smaller sw to the right was probably the start/stop switch.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

A reversing starter


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## dmxtothemax (Jun 15, 2010)

Julius793 said:


> Any ideas what this is?


Is it your's ?

Sure would look nice cleaned up !


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## Julius793 (Nov 29, 2011)

dmxtothemax said:


> Is it your's ?
> 
> Sure would look nice cleaned up !


Will be once I take it off the wall


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## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

I love a good mystery.

I expanded that photo a bunch and could read the name "Sundh Electric Co., Newark NJ". Looks like Sundh Electric made Fire Pump controllers. That would explain the presence of what was probably a pressure gauge on it. So the switch was not likely a reversing switch, I'd say it was used as part of a reduced voltage starter, either a reactor, resistor or autotransformer starting method that had two steps. Now it is all done with contactors, but years ago it was all done manually, a device called a "Manual Compensator". Most likely the reactor/resistor/autotransformer was below the slate board and is now gone, maybe scrapped for the copper if it was a reactor or transformer.

Sundh appears to have merged with another firm and became the Clark Controller Co. in the 1920s, after what appears to be an unsuccessful attempt to sue Cutler Hammer over a patent infringement of some sort over an electromagnet design. It was a case that went to the Supreme Court and is cited in numerous case laws over patents. Clark was later bought by Sylvania, then when Sylvania was bought by Siemens, Clark was spun off to Joslyn to become Joslyn Clark, now owned by Danaher. But Joslyn Clark is still in the Fire Pump Controller business to this day. Danaher-Joslyn's web site history only goes back to the Clark Controller being founded in the 1920s though.

There is a YouTube video of someone starting a Fire Pump using an old Sundh controller. It's dark, and it looks bigger, but you can make out some similarities.


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## Julius793 (Nov 29, 2011)

The question I have is why would there be a fire pump in an apartment building? Unless the building was something else at some point


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## bobyB (Jan 7, 2014)

What A Rush. I mean In -Rush.


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## dmxtothemax (Jun 15, 2010)

A few nice juicy sparks from the controler,
Probably frighten the crap out of most people.
But nice none the less !

Good stuff !
Always enjoy that sort of stuff !


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## dmxtothemax (Jun 15, 2010)

Julius793 said:


> The question I have is why would there be a fire pump in an apartment building? Unless the building was something else at some point


 
Could have just been a straight water pump,
Filling a tank at night,
Water used during the following day.


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## LARMGUY (Aug 22, 2010)

JRaef said:


> I love a good mystery.
> 
> I expanded that photo a bunch and could read the name "Sundh Electric Co., Newark NJ". Looks like Sundh Electric made Fire Pump controllers. That would explain the presence of what was probably a pressure gauge on it. So the switch was not likely a reversing switch, I'd say it was used as part of a reduced voltage starter, either a reactor, resistor or autotransformer starting method that had two steps. Now it is all done with contactors, but years ago it was all done manually, a device called a "Manual Compensator". Most likely the reactor/resistor/autotransformer was below the slate board and is now gone, maybe scrapped for the copper if it was a reactor or transformer.
> 
> ...


 
Man, that sucker hit! Looks like the old switches for an old elevator in the old Dayton Tire facility in OKC.

Those switches were caged to keep people away from them. Walking by them when they hit was cool as hell!


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## Pumpsandstuff (Mar 12, 2016)

Looks like I'm late to the party but that's my video and so are the other 2 on YouTube. Scary stuff. That's a 75hp 208v 3phase. I tested these when I was in my 20s and invincible 5-7 years ago. 
Message me for more info. I love talking about these old controllers because they still work


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

It was probably for a water pump for the building, may have had a tank on the roof prior to having city supplied water. And yes that is a copper water line to the right of the panel.


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## Pumpsandstuff (Mar 12, 2016)

That's a fire pump. There's no jockey pump but instead this system has a pressure tank that required the building engineer to isolate the system, drain the tank, and then precharge the tank with an air compressor to half of the fire pump churn pressure. The fire pump is then cycled on to give cushion for a week or month. 
In the video you first see me close the circuit breaker (this is the only way to manually shut this pump down). I have a piece of cardboard holding the mercoid pressure switch in place with a very long string ( you can hear me drop a 2x4 in the background). I then pull my cardboard out and the panel starts it start sequence. (I believe the arching is due to dust build up on the contact points) what's great about this panel is you can almost watch the electricity move through the panel 
Please note that the original light bulbs still work, as due the volt and amp meters. 
Chicago still has a lot of these panels in place. The museum of science and industry has this panel in their coal mine exhibit. 
I will pay for one of these old panels!!!!!!!!


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## Pumpsandstuff (Mar 12, 2016)

The rate of the soft start is controlled by a leather plunger and an adjustable spring. 
Also the only means of manual start is the emergency start handle left and slightly above center. This handle requires a pull out and a shove up which requires you to use your knees. This places you in very close proximity to the open contacts. 
As I said, this was tested in my 20s. I'd prefer to never test one of these again, but I'd so jump at the chance to tinker.


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## Sparkchaser1 (May 17, 2015)

Julius793 said:


> The question I have is why would there be a fire pump in an apartment building? Unless the building was something else at some point


I've wired fire pumps in new apartment buildings.


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

Pumpsandstuff said:


> Looks like I'm late to the party but that's my video and so are the other 2 on YouTube. Scary stuff. That's a 75hp 208v 3phase. I tested these when I was in my 20s and invincible 5-7 years ago.
> Message me for more info. I love talking about these old controllers because they still work



Welcome to the forum and thanks for filling in the information on this video. :thumbup:

I have been trying to find the link to an older video where someone is manually pushing in a DC contactor on an elevator controller...it arcs violently with a very odd sound.


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## B-Nabs (Jun 4, 2014)

Julius793 said:


> The question I have is why would there be a fire pump in an apartment building? Unless the building was something else at some point





Sparkchaser1 said:


> I've wired fire pumps in new apartment buildings.


I'm doing a fire pump in an apartment building right now.


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