# switch loops



## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

errrr, what else would you do ? white feed, black leg, red spare ?:001_huh:


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

itsgroundedman said:


> This may seem a bit amateur but I am trying to settle an argument. Per article 404.2 (C) in the 2011 code, you are required to include a neutral at all switches (with exceptions). My question is when using a 3 wire whip to the switch, is black or red line; load? I feel it is a common practice to use the black as a line ( always on) and red as load (switch leg). What are your opinions?


As long as the white is the neutral it does not matter. Personally the black is line and the red is load but there is no code that requires this.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

it's common practice to switch the red wire on a 3 wire like that, but there are so many retards that do electrical work that you might only find half of them done that way, so it's a coin toss.


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

My first guess/choice is black line, red switch leg. Or black switch A, red switch B.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Bkessler said:


> ....... Or black switch A, red switch B.


So you feed it with the blue?


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

480sparky said:


> So you feed it with the blue?


I am hoping me or the next person can figure out which black or blacks twisted under a wire nut and pigtailed twice is the line side of the switches. And which black and red coming from the same jacket are the switch legs.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Bkessler said:


> I am hoping me or the next person can figure out which black or blacks twisted under a wire nut and pigtailed twice is the line side of the switches. And which black and red coming from the same jacket are the switch legs.



OP is referring to one cable feeding the box. If you have two switches, you need two switch legs, a hot to feed them, and the now-obligatory noodle.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

I think the op has the feeds in the light and is bringing a 3 wire down to meet code for the neutral at every switch. That was my take on it.


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## rdr (Oct 25, 2009)

I would go black hot red switch leg but who knows what somebody else did before you. Never assume anything. Guess that kinda kills down on white back on black eh? Code aside I can't see a good reason to need a neutral in a switch box other than trying to do away with that practice and further dumb down the trade. **** sakes!


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

itsgroundedman said:


> This may seem a bit amateur but I am trying to settle an argument. Per article 404.2 (C) in the 2011 code, you are required to include a neutral at all switches (with exceptions). My question is when using a 3 wire whip to the switch, is black or red line; load? I feel it is a common practice to use the black as a line ( always on) and red as load (switch leg). What are your opinions?


Just out of curiosity more than anything else, how would you feed two- three way switches if the building service was 3 phase, and all the wiring was in conduit? The phasing at the switchgear was black, red, blue, and the ckt feeding the lights was ckt 10.


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## noarcflash (Sep 14, 2011)

actually on the east coast, standard phasing is BLUE BLACK RED.
so the blue should be line, black switched :jester:


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

noarcflash said:


> actually on the east coast, standard phasing is BLUE BLACK RED.
> so the blue should be line, black switched :jester:


REALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLY...

I happen to live on said East Coast, and we typically phase Black, Red, Blue.

So clearly, your phasing is *not* standard for the entire Coast.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

noarcflash said:


> actually on the east coast, standard phasing is BLUE BLACK RED.
> so the blue should be line, black switched :jester:


REALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLY...

I happen to live on said East Coast, and we typically phase Black, Red, Blue.

So clearly, your phasing is *not* standard for the entire Coast.

I agree with him black red blue is all I see in NYS


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

thegoldenboy said:


> REALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLY...
> 
> I happen to live on said East Coast, and we typically phase Black, Red, Blue.
> 
> So clearly, your phasing is *not* standard for the entire Coast.


Ergo, neither is yours. :no:


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Ergo, neither is yours. :no:


Alas, I never said mine was. Nor did I say that's how the entire Eastern Seaboard does theirs.


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## airfieldsparky (Jun 10, 2011)

noarcflash said:


> actually on the east coast, standard phasing is BLUE BLACK RED.
> so the blue should be line, black switched :jester:


You could not be more wrong east coast, and from what I understand the whole country, on a 120/208 three phase sytem it is black red blue. Not only I a commercial and industrial electrician think that but my father a linesman does as well.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

airfieldsparky said:


> You could not be more wrong east coast, and from what I understand the whole country, on a 120/208 three phase sytem it is black red blue. Not only I a commercial and industrial electrician think that but my father a linesman does as well.












Give me a Code reference that this violates.


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## noarcflash (Sep 14, 2011)

90% of the panels I see, are BLUE BLACK RED. North East, including NY. Take some pitures and post em up.
Certainly makes more sense to do black red blue, but that's what I see.

I just opened a 600amp panel and I took pictures. I will figure how to post them.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

noarcflash said:


> ....... I will figure how to post them.


Click here. :thumbsup:


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## airfieldsparky (Jun 10, 2011)

480sparky said:


> Give me a Code reference that this violates.


I couldn't, but any installation I have done or seen, is black red blue unless you need to flip a leg to change motor rotation. As far as service entrance conductors go it's black red blue. By no means am I saying since it is the way I do it, it is right but I	have never seen it any other way.


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## rdr (Oct 25, 2009)

Red black blue this way.


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## nhanson (Apr 17, 2010)

black red blue here


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## catfishjack (Sep 4, 2011)

black red blue. as far as the neutral in the box its a stupid addition to the code that anyone with half a brain can get around. i wouldn't worry too much about stockpiling your fancy 14/4 w/ ground romex. the whole intention of the addition is to keep gomers from using the ground as a neutral in devices that require one. any money this will be addressed and reworked in the '14 cycle


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## noarcflash (Sep 14, 2011)

catfishjack said:


> black red blue. as far as the neutral in the box its a stupid addition to the code that anyone with half a brain can get around. i wouldn't worry too much about stockpiling your fancy 14/4 w/ ground romex. the whole intention of the addition is to keep gomers from using the ground as a neutral in devices that require one. any money this will be addressed and reworked in the '14 cycle


 
I think it will stay for the fancy illuminated switches.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

480sparky said:


> Give me a Code reference that this violates.


None as long as that is the way they are terminated in the switchgear there coming from


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

360max said:


> Just out of curiosity more than anything else, how would you feed two- three way switches if the building service was 3 phase, and all the wiring was in conduit? The phasing at the switchgear was black, red, blue, and the ckt feeding the lights was ckt 10.


 If that building has more than one voltage system, the swich leg has to be identified as to phase and voltage, so if your ID method is black, red, blue for the 208/120Y sytem, the switch leg has to be the same color as the supply.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> If that building has more than one voltage system, the swich leg has to be identified as to phase and voltage, so if your ID method is black, red, blue for the 208/120Y sytem, the switch leg has to be the same color as the supply.


code ref please (system yes: phase ? I call shenanigans unless this is in the 2011 which I haven't read. OW call me shirley)


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

wildleg said:


> code ref please (system yes: phase ? I call shenanigans unless this is in the 2011 which I haven't read. OW call me shirley)


Don't ever doubt Don..... You are right it is in the 2011-- 210.5 re- written but it is still the same



> 210.5 Identification for Branch Circuits.
> (A) Grounded Conductor. The grounded conductor of a branch circuit shall be identified in accordance with 200.6.
> (B) Equipment Grounding Conductor. The equipment grounding conductor shall be identified in accordance with 250.119.
> (C) Identification of Ungrounded Conductors. Ungrounded conductors shall be identified in accordance with 210.5(C)(1), (2), and (3).
> ...



2008 Nec



> 210.5 Identification for Branch Circuits.
> (A) Grounded Conductor. The grounded conductor of a branch circuit shall be identified in accordance with 200.6.
> (B) Equipment Grounding Conductor. The equipment grounding conductor shall be identified in accordance with 250.119.
> (C) Ungrounded Conductors. Where the premises wiring system has branch circuits supplied from more than one nominal voltage system, each ungrounded conductor of a branch circuit shall be identified by phase or line and system at all termination, connection, and splice points. The means of identification shall be permitted to be by separate color coding, marking tape, tagging, or other approved means. The method utilized for conductors originating within each branch-circuit panelboard or similar branch-circuit distribution equipment shall be documented in a manner that is readily available or shall be permanently posted at each branch-circuit panelboard or similar branch-circuit distribution equipment.


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## Wireman191 (Aug 28, 2011)

480sparky said:


> Give me a Code reference that this violates.


 The post this was directed at was talking about 120/208.... so Im going to have to say, 110.15.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Wireman191 said:


> The post this was directed at was talking about 120/208.... so Im going to have to say, 110.15.



There's no 'high leg' in a 120/208 system.


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## Wireman191 (Aug 28, 2011)

480sparky said:


> There's no 'high leg' in a 120/208 system.


 I hooked up a system awhile back where there was 208 to ground, WTF do you call that?:blink:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Wireman191 said:


> I hooked up a system awhile back where there was 208 to ground, WTF do you call that?:blink:


A Delta system?


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Wireman191 said:


> I hooked up a system awhile back where there was 208 to ground, WTF do you call that?:blink:


It is probably a 120/240V delta.


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## Wireman191 (Aug 28, 2011)

My bad I will insert foot in mouth now.


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## bullmike (Jun 13, 2011)

But OP 200.7 (C) allows you to use a switch loop even in 2011. In 404.2 the exception says a neutral is not required. But if it was your example black is feed would probably most common.


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## Control Freak (Mar 8, 2008)

We had a genius not too long ago on the job. The whole jib was in pipe. This genius proceeded to pull a black and a white to each switch! He was. BX/MC guy it seems. Point being is that he had a wire cart full of all different colors so why pull the black and white??? Why not pull just two hot colors? Lol.....

On a side note nowadays with the fancy new colors on many jobs I've been on Pink is used for travelers and Purple is for switch legs or vice versa. Another common practice around here is to use a color other than what's being used for the service and branch ckts. For Ex. in the case of a building with only 120/208 being utilized the guys will use BOY and vice versa. Actually works out very well. 

A pet peeve of mine is when they come down to a switch using twin connectors. Usually there's a two wire and a three wire coming down to the three way and now you can't tell which conductors are coming from each separate cable! In my opinion twins are for high hats only!


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Control Freak said:


> We had a genius not too long ago on the job. The whole jib was in pipe. This genius proceeded to pull a black and a white to each switch! He was. BX/MC guy it seems. Point being is that he had a wire cart full of all different colors so why pull the black and white??? Why not pull just two hot colors? Lol.....
> 
> On a side note nowadays with the fancy new colors on many jobs I've been on Pink is used for travelers and Purple is for switch legs or vice versa. Another common practice around here is to use a color other than what's being used for the service and branch ckts. For Ex. in the case of a building with only 120/208 being utilized the guys will use BOY and vice versa. Actually works out very well.
> 
> A pet peeve of mine is when they come down to a switch using twin connectors. Usually there's a two wire and a three wire coming down to the three way and now you can't tell which conductors are coming from each separate cable! In my opinion twins are for high hats only!


Changing phase colors just because it's a leg or a traveller is against code


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## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

Would it still be against code if you were to post the color chart ie... Phase colors are black red blue switch legs are purple. How are you supposed to keep the colors when you switch to mc?


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## Control Freak (Mar 8, 2008)

I thought the only colors the code specifies are green for ground and white or slate grey for neutrals ??? Also the high leg must be marked as well with either orange or red? Correct me if I'm wrong please. 

We've never had any problems with inspections in NYC and they are pretty strict nowadays


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

You're right, but phase identification has to be consistent, and different system voltages have to be separately identified. 

You could identify the voltage with little stickers of unicorns for all the NEC cares, just as long as each phase had it's own unicorn it could be reliably identified.

-John


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## SparkYZ (Jan 20, 2010)

Big John said:


> You're right, but phase identification has to be consistent, and different system voltages have to be separately identified.
> 
> You could identify the voltage with little stickers of unicorns for all the NEC cares, just as long as each phase had it's own unicorn it could be reliably identified.
> 
> -John


Who supplies said unicorn stickers? Brady? Ideal? I NEED TO KNOW!!


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## rdr (Oct 25, 2009)

Big John said:


> You're right, but phase identification has to be consistent, and different system voltages have to be separately identified.
> 
> You could identify the voltage with little stickers of unicorns for all the NEC cares, just as long as each phase had it's own unicorn it could be reliably identified.
> 
> -John





SparkYZ said:


> Who supplies said unicorn stickers? Brady? Ideal? I NEED TO KNOW!!


Personally I like to use dragons. Kinda lets people know there's something dangerous going on there. Unicorns just don't seem quite ferocious enough.


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## Control Freak (Mar 8, 2008)

So I guess you can't pull a 2 wire down to a switch anymore. I guess you have to pull a 3 wire?


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## kbatku (Oct 18, 2011)

404.2 (A) _Exception: Switch loops shall not require a grounded conductor._

_2011 NEC _


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## cort16 (Nov 22, 2011)

I was taught to use red as switch leg and the black as line


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

kbatku said:


> 404.2 (A) _Exception: Switch loops shall not require a grounded conductor._
> 
> _2011 NEC _


Why don't you give a heading for that section... say... Three and Four way switches.

So what do I do on a switch loop for a single pole?


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## Stab&Shoot (Aug 23, 2011)

Black red blue in SC. And brown orange yellow of course.


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## kbatku (Oct 18, 2011)

thegoldenboy said:


> Why don't you give a heading for that section... say... Three and Four way switches.
> 
> So what do I do on a switch loop for a single pole?


200.7 (C) 

Well, 200.7 (C) 1 talks about re-identifying wires in single pole switch loops, so I guess they haven't worked all the bugs out of the code yet (imagine that!). I suppose you could a) use a switch loop in a box that (for some reason) already has a neutral from that circuit in it or b) pull a three wire (or three wires) to your switch loops. 

We sometimes do that anyway because then later, if something changes, we can extend the circuit from that point, or use an electronic dimmer or timer at that location.

I think it's a great addition to the code, but honestly haven't been called on it yet. I guess the inspectors don't tear our makeup apart looking for that (rare) switch loop.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

The op asked for our opinions in post #1, so here's mine. I think this code change was ill thought out. I think it was pushed thru and is currently supported by the types who dress up at night in their mom's underwear and clothes. If a device is needed that requires a neutral in the switch box, thats a design issue, and the guy drawing up the plans should have specified it, not the code making panel. The code book is not supposed to be a design manual, but once again , slippery slope and here we go again with the design in creep. 




Bullcrap ! Can't say it loud enough.


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

kbatku said:


> 200.7 (C)
> 
> Well, 200.7 (C) 1 talks about re-identifying wires in single pole switch loops, so I guess they haven't worked all the bugs out of the code yet (imagine that!). I suppose you could a) use a switch loop in a box that (for some reason) already has a neutral from that circuit in it or b) pull a three wire (or three wires) to your switch loops.
> 
> ...


I was being rhetorical. Just pointing out that the exception is specific to s3s and s4s.



macmikeman said:


> The op asked for our opinions in post #1, so here's mine. I think this code change was ill thought out. * I think it was pushed thru and is currently supported by the types who dress up at night in their mom's underwear and clothes.* If a device is needed that requires a neutral in the switch box, thats a design issue, and the guy drawing up the plans should have specified it, not the code making panel. The code book is not supposed to be a design manual, but once again , slippery slope and here we go again with the design in creep.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I had nothing to do with the making or passing of this Article. Why drag me into it?

:jester::laughing:

I kid.


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

I think it's one of the better code changes,recently. Keeps goofs from using ground as a neutral.Also those calls where they say they want a paddle fan in the bedroom but there isn't a box there.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

bobelectric said:


> I think it's one of the better code changes,recently. Keeps goofs from using ground as a neutral.Also those calls where they say they want a paddle fan in the bedroom but there isn't a box there.


Ok, you lost me on that last part.


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## fanelle (Nov 27, 2011)

The way we have done it is red to lineand black to load. The Nec says that a neutral is required in a switch location unless it is able to be added later. This is only so energy efficent devices can be added later on.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Ok, you lost me on that last part.


I think he is saying that if there is a neutral in the switch it makes it easier to add a fan-- for instance when there are switched recep. in the room.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I think he is saying that if there is a neutral in the switch it makes it easier to add a fan-- for instance when there are switched recep. in the room.


 
Man, I made that mistake last month. Came to do the job, opened the switch up, found switch loop. Had to fish down to receptacle instead of switch.


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## B W E (May 1, 2011)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Man, I made that mistake last month. Came to do the job, opened the switch up, found switch loop. Had to fish down to receptacle instead of switch.


That makes no sense. If its a switch loop, there is obviously a hot and a neutral at the receptacle it controls. Why not rewire the receptacle to make the black and white going to the switch a hot and a neutral, then drop down the wall into the switch instead???


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