# Theoretical question regarding grounding



## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

You cut a run you fix the mistake. There is no free floating wires allowed. 


On a 2 wire run, Romex, yes a GFCI can be used for protection. 



Why would someone pull a ground wire for "extra protection"? 
That's like saying superman needs batman for extra help..


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## simeon2014 (Nov 17, 2019)

Wirenuting said:


> You cut a run you fix the mistake. There is no free floating wires allowed.
> 
> 
> On a 2 wire run, Romex, yes a GFCI can be used for protection.
> ...


I didn't cut the run. Read it again or keep your mouth shut and keep it moving.
Got damn it's alot of Ego ridden geezers on this site. Every other post - it's a smart mouth like yourself mouthing off like they haven't gotten any in years. Go get laid. It'll loosen you up.

Secondly - I've noticed that commerical jobs - like jobs downtown - have a ground wire pulled for everything while in residential - just a hot and neutral are pulled - they just rely on the bonding of the pipe.

In hospitals , they take it a step further with grounding - but I'm not getting into that.

I'd like an answer from anyone else though....
Someone who's gotten laid recently so I don't have to read some "smart mouth" bulls**t. 

Anyone?


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

simeon2014 said:


> I didn't cut the run. Read it again or keep your mouth shut and keep it moving.
> Got damn it's alot of Ego ridden geezers on this site. Every other post - it's a smart mouth like yourself mouthing off like they haven't gotten any in years. Go get laid. It'll loosen you up.
> 
> Secondly - I've noticed that commerical jobs - like jobs downtown - have a ground wire pulled for everything while in residential - just a hot and neutral are pulled - they just rely on the bonding of the pipe.
> ...


Well my reply was ment for the asshole who cut the pipe.. 

But since your but hurt about it, I'm glad you get to fix someone else's mistake. 
Your a kiddy liberal aren't you? 


Oh ya, Coffee black and when you get back sweep up kid.


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## simeon2014 (Nov 17, 2019)

Wirenuting said:


> Well my reply was ment for the asshole who cut the pipe..
> 
> But since your but hurt about it, I'm glad you get to fix someone else's mistake.
> Your a kiddy liberal aren't you?
> ...


What is it?

Are you in your 50/60s - you feel like your life is coming to a close.... dissatisfied with how you've lived your life . . . so to make yourself feel better , you act like a tough guy? Kind of like short man syndrome?

Does it make you feel like the big man because you "said something smart" and "cool" . . . like a child in highschool?

I'm not a democrat . . .
I'm no republican neither . . . 

I don't follow crowds. How does it feel to be an old man trying to be the tough guy on a keyboard on the internet? Like . . . how on Earth do you not feel pathetic when posting stuff like that?


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

But, Batman had Robin. Will this be the end of the Caped Crusaders??? :surprise:
Or will the Justice League deliver the Dynamic Duo from an ELECTRIFYING DEATH??? :vs_OMG:


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

This is the NEC Code Forum. How about citing an article & asking a question.


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

Wirenuting said:


> Coffee black and when you get back sweep up kid.


Have you found any place that makes coffee almost as good as home? I like Folgers Classic with cream at the house. No one can touch that for now.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

simeon2014 said:


> Theoretically, wouldn't a home owner still be ok if a ground fault were to occur in something they plug up outdoors . . . due to having a gfc?
> 
> I saw something today while dealing with a lady's house and saw an outlet at the end of line that's not bonded back to the panel . . . so I have to fix it . . . but I'm curious.



Yes, the gfci will protect the owner from getting hurt without an equipment grounding conductor. That is why we can replace an ungrounded receptacle with a gfci receptacle.


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

As to “only” bonding although non-copper bonding has a higher specific resistance, the total cross sectional area is higher so it is lower resistance than running a copper wire. Look at for instance the steel tubing institute.

Second, no a GFCI will not protect against a shock. A GFCI does not need a ground to work (works based on difference between neutral and hot current) so it will trigger AFTER a shock occurs. The path is via Earth assuming sufficient Earthing exists as opposed to Groubding. Otherwise like a bird on a wire, no shock occurs.


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## simeon2014 (Nov 17, 2019)

Bird dog said:


> Have you found any place that makes coffee almost as good as home? I like Folgers Classic with cream at the house. No one can touch that for now.



You know what . . . I'm not going to even do it.


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## simeon2014 (Nov 17, 2019)

paulengr said:


> As to “only” bonding although non-copper bonding has a higher specific resistance, the total cross sectional area is higher so it is lower resistance than running a copper wire. Look at for instance the steel tubing institute.
> 
> Second, no a GFCI will not protect against a shock. A GFCI does not need a ground to work (works based on difference between neutral and hot current) so it will trigger AFTER a shock occurs. The path is via Earth assuming sufficient Earthing exists as opposed to Groubding. Otherwise like a bird on a wire, no shock occurs.


Right.

But how would a shock occur ?
If the owner were to plug in a fan with faulty internal wiring {wiring touching the frame of the fan} . . . 

Wouldn't the GFI instantly trip? The current that leaves the GFI to go to the fan wouldn't be the same coming back . . . 
How would they get shocked . . . The second you plug it in - the gfi should trip.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

Bird dog said:


> Have you found any place that makes coffee almost as good as home? I like Folgers Classic with cream at the house. No one can touch that for now.


I’m hooked on Hills brothers classic.


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## simeon2014 (Nov 17, 2019)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Yes, the gfci will protect the owner from getting hurt without an equipment grounding conductor. That is why we can replace an ungrounded receptacle with a gfci receptacle.


Well I'm not speaking in terms of a grounding conductor . . . 
If someone free aired a hot and a neutral for ten feet from a coupling to a box to feed a gfi { Against code - I know } . . . . 

Theoretically , wouldn't the GFI still protect the user in a case where they were to plug up something with faulty wiring? I say this because a gfi should sense a difference in current . . . 

So where some clown chose to not bond with pipe . . . I'm saying if the only device on the fed side was a gfi . . . I would think the owner is still protected despite the electrician's incompetence.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

simeon2014 said:


> What is it?
> 
> Are you in your 50/60s - you feel like your life is coming to a close.... dissatisfied with how you've lived your life . . . so to make yourself feel better , you act like a tough guy? Kind of like short man syndrome?
> 
> ...


Wow sweet pea, what tripped your trigger?
The lockdown in Chicago got your gay p0rn line cut?

Do you cry this hard at work everyday seeing as you’ve said your a nervous young guy? Is your little petter in need of a special touch?


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

simeon2014 said:


> Right.
> 
> But how would a shock occur ?
> If the owner were to plug in a fan with faulty internal wiring {wiring touching the frame of the fan} . . .
> ...


The current is faster that the tripping of the GFCI. While you shouldn't feel the shock, the current is in fact entering your body up to the threshold of the GFCI. That's what makes the GFCI trip in that particular case.

Oops, way too slow....


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

And actually, the grounding conductor has nothing to do with the operation of a GFCI.


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## radio208 (Aug 27, 2014)

Simeon---No it would not trip because the fan might be on a ...wooden table---hot to the frame but no current flow, until someone touches it -then a path to ground if lets say barefoot on a concrete floor


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## simeon2014 (Nov 17, 2019)

radio208 said:


> Simeon---No it would not trip because the fan might be on a ...wooden table---hot to the frame but no current flow, until someone touches it -then a path to ground if lets say barefoot on a concrete floor


Perfect explanation. Thank you.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

In most of the country EMT is not used for residences.

A copper ground is not required per the NEC in Metallic Conduit.

Yes a GFI protected circuit does not need a Ground to work.

Why the crappy attitude?


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

simeon2014 said:


> Right.
> 
> But how would a shock occur ?
> If the owner were to plug in a fan with faulty internal wiring {wiring touching the frame of the fan} . . .
> ...



That’s internal and yes it trips. If YOU complete the circuit you get shocked. The idea of a GFCI is to trip on that faulty wiring before you are shocked assuming binding, however poor, is done. The “lone wire” scenario is where the GFCI doesn’t work. A breaker should theoretically work on faulty wiring conditions too but experience says ground faults are notoriously sneaky.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

If you're young and dumb and ask stupid questions, but not too annoying, people will tolerate you. 

If you're an asshole, but people need you because you can do things that others can't, people will tolerate you. 

If you're young and dumb and an asshole, people can't wait until you go away. 

Do the math, Einstein.


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## Kevin (Feb 14, 2017)

Here ya go. Watch that, then you should have an understanding of GFCI outlets.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Kevin_Essiambre said:


> https://youtu.be/GlM6PE2kKVY
> 
> Here ya go. Watch that, then you should have an understanding of GFCI outlets.


Love that guy. Pretends to be an idiot to get more views, but he is actually very knowledgeable.


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## Dan the electricman (Jan 2, 2011)

simeon2014 said:


> Got damn it's alot of Ego ridden geezers on this site.


Hey! I resemble that remark! 

I gotta admit, it made laugh out loud! :vs_laugh:


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Bird dog said:


> Have you found any place that makes coffee almost as good as home? I like Folgers Classic with cream at the house. No one can touch that for now.


If by chance you ever get to Haleiwa, stop at Cafe Haleiwa , it's across the street from the post office. Their coffee is so damn good. 100% real thing Kona, which is for all purposes almost impossible to get at 100%. The difference is like cocaine uncut vs cocaine all cut to hell by the time it got to you. Anyway, they have damn good coffee. And it's owned by my longtime friend Duncan and his lovely wife since the mid 1970's. You will not find better tasting coffee anywhere.


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

whether or not GFCI will protect from getting shocked from whatever is plugged in

you still have THHN in free air?

and ungrounded EMT (likely to become energized)?


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