# New construction...Is it worth it?



## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

I don't really have an answer

I do suspect that the unreliable electricians that built service are very cheap, and that GC might think that he is willing to pay more for reliable electrician, but may not realize how much more is more. Being a reliable electrician is expensive!


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## Glock23gp (Mar 10, 2014)

WronGun said:


> Here I have my 3rd opportunity for a NC house... The first 2 (very big homes) I bid on I did not win..
> 
> Now I have prints from a serious GC who wants my bid on a 4700 sq' home with a 300' electric heated driveway...
> 
> ...


I guess it depends on where you live because on here I see everyone bashing gc's and talking about how they only want the cheapest price.

That's never been true in my years as a journeyman nor now as a contractor.

I saw a lot of the business side progressing thru my apprentiship and as a journeyman asking about bidding and getting contracts.

If NOT doing track homes but doing semi custom (which is what we do here) customers choose gc's on (1) reputation and (2) price but mainly reputation.

They have their reputation due to word of mouth and past quality work. True quality work cannot be accomplished for the cheapest price.

Gc's are more comfortable using the same subs so they KNOW they won't have any hassle, won't have problems with quality, and have consistency job to job.

I understand this isn't true everywhere especially in track houses but to get in good with a gc here is long term money in the bank and steady work.

The first 2 homes you did not win...
Any way to find out what the winners prices were or a ball park how far off you were? Do you know ballpark what a new home goes for per Sq ft avg? 

Even though you don't use this to bid it gets you in the ballpark knowing what others charge to find out if your even in the same zip code 

I bid a 5600 Sq ft home 2 weeks ago and spent 3 days looking at my final numbers debating if they were too high or low. Ended up adding $3k at the end and the gc / owner said "Looks fair, I'll call you when we start."

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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

You want to pursue GCs... not the other-way-round.

Your first duty is to yourself. And your first task is to work up a profile on the GC... not the job.

Wherever did his prior ECs go ?

By the size, and heated driveway, this is a McMansion. 

GCs in that market have stable crews and stable subs... usually.

If you don't have a long, personal relationship with the GC... watch out.

You'll want a credit report on him -- that's for sure. 

Get your banker to pull a 'Dun & Bradstreet' on him. You'll have to kick him some $$ for it, I should think.

dnb.com

It's COMMON for GCs to get behind the eight-ball with their subs... then start jumping from one sub to the next... running up a tab.

Other heartbreaks that can pop-up:

He's going through divorce -- so his attorney is killing him financially, etc.

He's a compulsive gambler -- this is much more common than you might imagine. One has to be a gambler in the first place to even become a GC building McMansions.

He's all charm when he needs you -- and a tyrant when the shoe is on the other foot. This is VERY common. A fellow that oozes charm does so as a psychological compensation for a fundamentally brutish personality. ( ruthless, selfish, vindictive ) 

&&&&

In sum, you ONLY want his 'action' if the people factors line up.

If they do, then you could have the beginnings of a terrific long-term business relationship. 

Yes, they do happen. 

Just keep in mind that small scale custom home contractors have the collective reputation of being bad news leading to hard times.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

The last house I put a bid on was around 7600 sq' and had some custom touches.... I did not use the Sq' method bud I did calculate it at the end to see what the sq' cost was and it was around $11.60.... GC said I was 3 times higher than the electricians he currently had who said they never show up or do things up to par.... I lost that job 


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

WronGun.,, I know it kinda little steep learning curve for you but as other mention as long you have good working standards .,, I dont think you will have much touble with it.,,

however the size of the house you mention I am pretty sure it leaning more to custom made home design so it will take little more work on it but please watch the prints for alot of FPN ( fine print notes ) 

I am not too famair with heated driveway but I done some heated sidewalk work before in France so expected that to be on 240 volt circuit for sure..,, but excat wattage on heated driveway I am assuming anywhere from 5 KW to 10 KW depending on how it layout and the max wattage per section. 

This part above you will need to get some ROI ( request of infomation ) 

the last time I work that big a house I end up put in 2 X 200 amp panels due the amout of circuits plus the reason why I stay under 400 due all gas in kitchen and heating side so that help a bit.,, 

Wish you the best of luck 

Glock did have some good pointers too so read his part too.,,


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## Julius793 (Nov 29, 2011)

We do a lot of custom homes and we don't lose money on them. We bid per unit and I have calculated and it comes out near our labor rate charge. The difference is on a new house you can get 8 hours of work in as opposed to service work where you may only have 5 billable hours. Regarding the heated driveway my personal experiences have not been good with electric for driveways or bathroom floors and I always suggest going with hot water.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

Julius793 said:


> We do a lot of custom homes and we don't lose money on them. We bid per unit and I have calculated and it comes out near our labor rate charge. The difference is on a new house you can get 8 hours of work in as opposed to service work where you may only have 5 billable hours. Regarding the heated driveway my personal experiences have not been good with electric for driveways or bathroom floors and I always suggest going with hot water.




I actually work very closely with a tile guy who is a long time friend ... we've done over 12 electric heated floors so far this year , all working great.... driveway is new to me , especially this size


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

frenchelectrican said:


> WronGun.,, I know it kinda little steep learning curve for you but as other mention as long you have good working standards .,, I dont think you will have much touble with it.,,
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Good advice .... it would be nice for my first NC not to be so damn big however 


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

My advice with the snow melting is to look at the EasyHeat snow melting mats. You give them the dimensions and JB location and they make up mats with the appropriate cold lead lengths. They come in 18" and 36" lengths and are shipped rolled up. It takes them a few weeks to make them for you.

A word of warning - electric snow melting uses lots of power.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

WronGun said:


> Good advice .... it would be nice for my first NC not to be so damn big however
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Ya I know what you mean on that and I have one pretty large house over here they want me to bid so I kinda keep it on high side than what I normally do due it was combo brick and stick wall set up .,, so that kick up the price some but myself and one other electrician is compation on price so one of us will get it.,


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

99cents said:


> My advice with the snow melting is to look at the EasyHeat snow melting mats. You give them the dimensions and JB location and they make up mats with the appropriate cold lead lengths. They come in 18" and 36" lengths and are shipped rolled up. It takes them a few weeks to make them for you.
> 
> A word of warning - electric snow melting uses lots of power.




I told him this ...300' long ! And a 3-car garage.... crazy ..... not surprised given the town that it's in .... very very affluent area 


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## Glock23gp (Mar 10, 2014)

Before anything else do a load calculation to make sure the service is right and that you don't need to switch to 3 phase. 

Where I live anything over a 400 amp CT service needs to be 3 phase. A poco 3 phase transformer alone is $17k.

MAKE SURE you write in your estimate / contract your price includes no utility costs or material!!!

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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

WronGun said:


> I told him this ...300' long ! And a 3-car garage.... crazy ..... not surprised given the town that it's in .... very very affluent area
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


For that big a area I think they should invest getting a hot water boiler to heat the dammed large area of driveway and the cost of running on gas ( natural gas or propane ) or diesel fuel is cheaper than run the electric power to heat up the driveway area.

you are looking more than 10KW worth of electric power just for snowmelting system that inbeded in concrete or blacktop one of the two and that is not a cheap freaking cost at all.


Note ; here in Philippines we have restriction on service size that big so with 200 amp single phase is about the top for our resdentail but once you go bigger then ya have no choice but go with three phase ( 415Y240 volts circuits )


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I guess as I get older my tolerance for risk is lower, or maybe I'm getting wiser. Maybe not... Don't let your eyes be bigger than your stomach or don't bite off more than you can chew. The bigger the service, the bigger the wire and gear gets larger. Will the utility provide wire and pull? If not do you have a tugger or access to one? I prefer to stick with smaller jobs that I can do with three guys at most. I try not to be on the hook for large amounts of material or have long wait times for payment. My property managers pay weekly or the other 2-3 weeks at most. They get the love. I'm at a point where I'm not chasing or looking for new people. If you are on the other end of the scale where your developing a clientele, you have to try some builders out.


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## Magnettica_2 (Jun 28, 2011)

I'm always weary of general contractors because most of them suck ass and you know I'm right. Don't get me wrong, some are very, very good and can increase your bottom line money-wise. I'm doing a new house now on the Jersey shore but I am working for the homeowner and its been easy work. They're paying MY PRICE which I am sure is more than what a GC would pay for the same work. Anyway, good luck!


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Magnettica_2 said:


> I'm always weary of general contractors because most of them suck ass and you know I'm right. Don't get me wrong, some are very, very good and can increase your bottom line money-wise. I'm doing a new house now on the Jersey shore but I am working for the homeowner and its been easy work. *They're paying MY PRICE which I am sure is more than what a GC would pay for the same work. Anyway, good luck!*


Yes, it's more than the GC would pay you, but it's less than the GC would charge the customer for the electrical work. So it's a win for you and a win for the customer, but a loss for the GC. Too bad, so sad :thumbsup:


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

The one new home I'm doing now is for the homeowner who is GCing the whole thing. He's someone I know and trust and I don't have to worry about payment. I haven't done a new home in maybe five years. Only for the right people. It's the relationships that make these projects work.


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## Magnettica_2 (Jun 28, 2011)

HackWork said:


> Yes, it's more than the GC would pay you, but it's less than the GC would charge the customer for the electrical work. So it's a win for you and a win for the customer, but a loss for the GC. Too bad, so sad :thumbsup:


I bid one on Spring Lake over the winter at $32k and didn't get it. Not a huge house but a ton of hi hats, circuits, and everything else. So when I learned that I didn't get the job I called the lady and asked if she could help me. She said sure so I asked her what the winning bid was. You know how much? 

$19k. 

I said "you have my number if you have any problems."


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

WronGun said:


> I told him this ...300' long ! And a 3-car garage.... crazy ..... not surprised given the town that it's in .... very very affluent area
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That beats an effluent neighborhood, let me tell you. :thumbsup:


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

frenchelectrican said:


> For that big a area I think they should invest getting a hot water boiler to heat the dammed large area of driveway and the cost of running on gas ( natural gas or propane ) or diesel fuel is cheaper than run the electric power to heat up the driveway area.
> 
> you are looking more than 10KW worth of electric power just for snowmelting system that inbeded in concrete or blacktop one of the two and that is not a cheap freaking cost at all.
> 
> ...


I can't imagine how electric heat pencils out for this project.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

telsa said:


> I can't imagine how electric heat pencils out for this project.


Just trust me this is hellva bigger than what you do in the bathroom floor heating system is.,,

the last one I done in France the size was 4 meter wide and about 12 meters long that is pretty much cover most of the sidewalk area and it used 6 KW heat but accourding one GC say to me if any bigger than that they will switch over to hot water with boiler that will be more enconmail to use it. 

the issue with that was the multi tier electric rates that what knock it hard.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

How often is the snow melter going to be used in NC? Maybe just heat tire tracks, not the whole thing. 

I have seen snow melting specified using self reg cable. I don't know why but be careful. It has inrush.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Magnettica_2 said:


> I bid one on Spring Lake over the winter at $32k and didn't get it. Not a huge house but a ton of hi hats, circuits, and everything else. So when I learned that I didn't get the job I called the lady and asked if she could help me. She said sure so I asked her what the winning bid was. You know how much?
> 
> $19k.
> 
> I said "you have my number if you have any problems."


Was it a real company that won the bid?


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

99cents said:


> How often is the snow melter going to be used in NC? Maybe just heat tire tracks, not the whole thing.
> 
> I have seen snow melting specified using self reg cable. I don't know why but be careful. It has inrush.


NC = New Construction

It does not mean North Carolina. :no:


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

mechanicaldvr said:


> was it a real company that won the bid?


exactly !


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

A successful GC is a world-class liar.

One can only hope that his lies are directed at the property owner.

Such absurd numbers indicate that the GC has found the Greatest Fool...

Or is prepping you up to be the next greatest fool.


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Was it a real company that won the bid?


things like this happen all the time here 

Ive probably posted about this before but I bid a custom house about 2 years ago for $105,000. GC got 2 other bids....1 came out at $105k and the other came to $115k. Still he wanted to get a 4th bid. 

The 4th and final bid came to $64,000 and that was from a pretty decent sized company


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

telsa said:


> exactly !


That is a very different area, some of the best contractors in NJ work there and then there are some of the biggest loser contractors working there as well.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

telsa said:


> NC = New Construction
> 
> It does not mean North Carolina. :no:


Gotcha  . I was wondering about that, although Dennis did manage to get his car stuck down there this winter.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

drspec said:


> things like this happen all the time here
> 
> Ive probably posted about this before but I bid a custom house about 2 years ago for $105,000. GC got 2 other bids....1 came out at $105k and the other came to $115k. Still he wanted to get a 4th bid.
> 
> The 4th and final bid came to $64,000 and that was from a pretty decent sized company


Wow that is insane to me.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Wow that is insane to me.


You should've seen the bid on Don Corleone's mansion... just the security contracts.

Like the casinos, he had more than one.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

drspec said:


> things like this happen all the time here
> 
> Ive prob ably posted about this before but I bid a custom house about 2 years ago for $105,000. GC got 2 other bids....1 came out at $105k and the other came to $115k. Still he wanted to get a 4th bid.
> 
> The 4th and final bid came to $64,000 and that was from a pretty decent sized company


They either have plenty of $8 an hour guys or going after 100% change orders.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Suncoast Power said:


> They either have plenty of $8 an hour guys or going after 100% change orders.


Or both! 

It's possible that was their plan in the first place, or it's possible the estimator messed up and that's how they're going to do damage control.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

splatz said:


> Or both!
> 
> It's possible that was their plan in the first place, or it's possible the estimator messed up and that's how they're going to do damage control.


But they shouldn't be able to make any more money in change orders then Dr. Spec would have been able to.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

HackWork said:


> splatz said:
> 
> 
> > Or both!
> ...


Most of the guys around here who do a lot of new work residential are garbage at estimating anyway, and just square foot everything. We are double the price of guys who wire house after house, and sure they are way more efficient at it, but they still dont have much money left over at the end of the year. Between my estimating class at school and this website, I am waaay more comfortable about how we bid, and padding it for when **** goes wrong.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Going_Commando said:


> Most of the guys around here who do a lot of new work residential are garbage at estimating anyway, and just square foot everything. We are double the price of guys who wire house after house, and sure they are way more efficient at it, but they still dont have much money left over at the end of the year. Between my estimating class at school and this website, I am waaay more comfortable about how we bid, and padding it for when **** goes wrong.


There are guys that really bid a job and are in it for profit and then there are guys that just get work to maintain cash flow.


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## Drsparky14 (Oct 22, 2016)

WronGun said:


> I actually work very closely with a tile guy who is a long time friend ... we've done over 12 electric heated floors so far this year , all working great.... driveway is new to me , especially this size
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




I did a driveway with electric radiant heat and it was only about 20x60 and it took 200 amps just to run that alone. 


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

Suncoast Power said:


> They either have plenty of $8 an hour guys or going after 100% change orders.


Not trying to start a fight here...but recently I posted a comment to
another thread that had a similar situation. 
I warned the OP not to arbitrarily ad items (labor & materials) that are
not on the print due to fact that competition probably isn't doing that.

My point wasn't to go cheap ...it was don't overbid on items not requested
or shown cause of the kinds of tactics low ballers are using and then banking
on making it up in extra's.:thumbsup:


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

Drsparky14 said:


> I did a driveway with electric radiant heat and it was only about 20x60 and it took 200 amps just to run that alone.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


We get similar loads out here for fixed electric deicing cables (Raychem
self regulating). 

I really don't think the average person knows what they are asking for on 
some of these job requests , thus , many end up being yet another exercise
in bidding futility..once they see the cost for the cables , materials , service
upgrades , electric bill.

Last year , I got a call @ an assisted living facility. They wanted so much
linear footage , I had to tell them to get an approval from an Electric
Engineer to sign off on the load calc and extra burden on the existing 
service. (there was no seasonal non coincidental rules in place cause the building was radiant heat via a boiler)

My calcs (if all were pulling power @ the same time) was over 425 amps.

They looked at me like I was from Mars. Never called back.:no:


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

MechanicalDVR said:


> There are guys that really bid a job and are in it for profit and then there are guys that just get work to maintain cash flow.


Cash flow to them is the month to month type.... damn... which past due account should we send something to?:whistling2:


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Switched said:


> Cash flow to them is the month to month type.... damn... which past due account should we send something to?:whistling2:


Exactly and that is something I'll never grasp the concept of.

My Uncles all ran their businesses like a tight ship, never robbing Peter to pay Paul.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

The idea that you can't make money doing new construction is absolutely false. You can make money at it just like you can at any facet of electrical work. The issue is _how _to make money at it.

I've worked for EC's that had no clue how to wire a new house quickly and efficiently, and I worked for an EC that did new homes exclusively and kept 8 guys busy doing it. Nobody can convince me that new construction is a losing game, or else EC's that specialize in it would not exist.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MTW said:


> The idea that you can't make money doing new construction is absolutely false. You can make money at it just like you can at any facet of electrical work. The issue is _how _to make money at it.
> 
> I've worked for EC's that had no clue how to wire a new house quickly and efficiently, and I worked for an EC that did new homes exclusively and kept 8 guys busy doing it. Nobody can convince me that new construction is a losing game, or else EC's that specialize in it would not exist.


The majority of EC's who specialize in new construction here are all very similar.

They all have:

1) All Mexican crews
2) 15-25 year old vehicles
3) A small house in a not so nice area
4) A wife who pays most of the bills

Now this is just a generalization. Are they all like that? No way, some do well. Some people do well with AIDS, other people do well driving drunk.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

MTW said:


> The idea that you can't make money doing new construction is absolutely false. You can make money at it just like you can at any facet of electrical work. The issue is _how _to make money at it.
> 
> I've worked for EC's that had no clue how to wire a new house quickly and efficiently, and I worked for an EC that did new homes exclusively and kept 8 guys busy doing it.* Nobody can convince me that new construction is a losing game, or else EC's that specialize in it would not exist.*


There are exceptions to every rule, and successful NC EC's would be that. Perception, on both sides of the equation, can be wrong. I can keep 8 guys going and be losing my ass, and I can keep 8 guys going and be mired in debt.

I also think there is a difference between large subdivisions and custom homes, custom homes can be huge money makers. 

Besides.... most of them went out of business around 2008-2010 RIP.....


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> The majority of EC's who specialize in new construction here are all very similar.
> 
> They all have:
> 
> ...


:yawn:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MTW said:


> :yawn:


This is the type of response we would expect from chicken Steve.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

To the op's question. How many employees do you have? If you are a single man company and you are even thinking about bidding a 7600 sq ft home you are freaking nuts.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> This is the type of response we would expect from chicken Steve.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

MTW said:


>


Can you two go into a private chat please? I am not sure either one of you has completed a new home since you started on your own.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

sbrn33 said:


> Can you two go into a private chat please? I am not sure either one of you has completed a new home since you started on your own.


I also haven't banged a tranny with syphilis. You don't need to do something to know its bad.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

HackWork said:


> I also haven't banged a tranny with syphilis. You don't need to do something to know its bad.


What? I really thought we had something in common!


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

There is money to be made doing new construction but most of us here, myself included, haven't figured out how to make that happen.

Theres one company here that has 40 something field employees and is making a killing. Theyre averaging between 150 - 190 rough ins/trims outs per month. These are all between 2000 - 4000 sq ft houses. Theyre billing out over $500k per month and turning a nice profit.

The owners have NICE houses, vacation homes, new cars, boats, season tickets to sporting events, etc. I was told they made so much money in the past couple of months they were worried about how much taxes they had to pay so they were going to take their entire company, families and all to an all day event, dropping about $20k just for the write off.

THAT's what I need to figure out and what I aspire to happen.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Sure, you can make money in new construction but you have to be geared for it. You cant be wiring a shop one day, service calls another day, renos another day and then fit a house in somewhere. You need to have a crew of wire yankers tooled up with running shoes and all the material ready to go. If you can't do a quick in/out there's no sense even thinking about it.

You also need cheap labor (see the thread about first year apprentices who have been in the trade ten years).


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Again, working with the right builders probably makes the difference too. I'm not geared for it and likely never will be.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

It was all easier _before_ the crash.

The new build / GC ratio was tighter

The GC / EC ratio was tighter

~CS~


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

When illegals enter your market, no-one (subs) can make money in new construction.

Illegals also means massive cheating on every other social spending/taxation mandate from Work Comp on down the line.

The natives, the ex-tract employees then invade the custom home market -- in despair.

Plan B used to be to flee to California, but our DAS has put a stop to that.

The fact is that unlimited immigration -- legal or illegal -- crashes wage rates where immigrants have a shot.

Note how Trudeau figures that migrant Muslim males will just about ALL enter the Canadian trades. Yup. That's his belief.

Naturally, most of the Canadians posting here are sanguine about the influx of 'South Asian' talent.

{ England and Canada get so many Indian and Pakistani Muslims because they ALREADY speak passable English... there are so many of them... and they have Commonwealth status. }

The same holds true for high tech H1-b talent hired by Silicon Valley. I live next to a major Intel plant. The impact is astounding, especially at the grocer.

Naturally rents explode and wages tail off. They stay flat while inflation goes bonkers.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

telsa said:


> When illegals enter your market, no-one (subs) can make money in new construction.
> 
> Illegals also means massive cheating on every other social spending/taxation mandate from Work Comp on down the line.
> 
> ...


Who has unlimited immigration? Certainly not Canada.

The UK has twice as many people as Canada (with a lot less real estate). The US has ten times as many.

Popular belief is that Canada is underpopulated and has encouraged immigration. This has been going on a lot longer than Trudeau's time. I don't know if I share that belief but it's out there.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

99cents said:


> Who has unlimited immigration? Certainly not Canada.
> 
> The UK has twice as many people as Canada (with a lot less real estate). The US has ten times as many.
> 
> Popular belief is that Canada is underpopulated and has encouraged immigration. This has been going on a lot longer than Trudeau's time. I don't know if I share that belief but it's out there.


Umm Canada is cold and full of gays. Nobody but hax is rushing to get up there.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

sbrn33 said:


> To the op's question. How many employees do you have? If you are a single man company and you are even thinking about bidding a 7600 sq ft home you are freaking nuts.


I handled a 14,000 sq ft NC job w/ 2,000 sq ft Pub Garage w/ Ct cabinet 
& 600 amp service by myself and never held up the job...oh and I freaking
cashed in too.

Check...I hired guys from lighting store/supplier to hang fixtures @ the end.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

2nd that

basically doable if you see a crew of _two_ carpenters, not *22*....

~CS~


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