# Aluminum to copper pigtails - options?



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

alselec53 said:


> I have a customer that has aluminum wiring (70's home) and wants to do the copper pigtails. They sell the purple wire nuts for that i know, and some have used no-lox in regular wire nuts. I guess this is better than nothing, but not sure if its code approved. I know they make special crimps with a special crimper for them too. Heard you have to take a class to do it that way, (not sure). Anyone found the best way to do this? beside rewiring the whole house with copper. Is using the no-lox or purple wire nuts ok to use?
> Thx,


What code cycle are you on? Reason: they make aluminum rated devices still, just no tr ones afaik .


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Don't use "regular" wire nuts unless you want to be sued and arrested when the fire starts.. :no::no:


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## crazyboy (Nov 8, 2008)

Purple nuts, not cheap but the only way to do it and CYA.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

crazyboy said:


> Purple nuts, not cheap but the only way to do it and CYA.


Not the only way to do it and CYA. I know other options. I talked about one above. There are more.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Al COP connectors or find a Tyco contractor with the crimps.


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## sparkie2010 (Sep 15, 2009)

There are only four ways of doing it. The first three require you to return and inspect the joints every year.

1. The first Is the crimping method that require you to be certified and to lease there tool.

2. Alumicon, it's a rated splicing box. However you need a torque screw driver $385.00.

3. Go to lowes you can get the receptacle and switchs that are rated for aluminum wire.
Remember the older boxes are small. So splicing won't work all the time.

4. And last re-wire the house. Tell the owner to stop being cheap and prevent a potential hazard.


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## alselec53 (Jan 4, 2012)

I had heard purple wire nuts weren't legal, only the approved crimps and crimper, and you can't get the crimper without taking the class unless you know someone, but I could be wrong. Also it seems like regular wire nuts with no-lox in them would be the same as the purple ones, other than the ends are more closed.
Anyway, sounds like a lot of extra wire nuts in a box, but beats a rewire.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

alselec53 said:


> I had heard purple wire nuts weren't legal, only the approved crimps and crimper, and you can't get the crimper without taking the class unless you know someone, but I could be wrong. Also it seems like regular wire nuts with no-lox in them would be the same as the purple ones, other than the ends are more closed.
> Anyway, sounds like a lot of extra wire nuts in a box, but beats a rewire.


Pretty much right, the screw inside is cut with square wire and that also helps to hold the wires together, but actually a tan twister is made the same.


The purple is to help get you off the hook. It costs more, but it has been tested and listed for the use, no matter what the guys who have an anti Ideal #65 website like to say about that.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

The purple nuts do nothing but cover your ass. The construction and materials are the same.


For a price, the manufacturer is willing to share the liability with you. 

I hate having to use them but, as a contractor, I must. 

If it was my house, I wouldn't lose a minutes sleep over it pigtailing with regular nuts. 

I mean, if normal wirenuts are dangerous, why aren't they *all* burning up? The actual number of wirenut failures that I've come across isn't any more than with copper wire.


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## sparkie2010 (Sep 15, 2009)

It's who will certified and insure the customer. 

If you can't have it insured then what's the point. Also can you do the work. Do you have coverage in your policy for this type of work.


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## alselec53 (Jan 4, 2012)

sparkie2010 said:


> There are only four ways of doing it. The first three require you to return and inspect the joints every year.
> 
> 1. The first Is the crimping method that require you to be certified and to lease there tool.
> 
> ...


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## sparkie2010 (Sep 15, 2009)

220/221 said:


> The purple nuts do nothing but cover your ass. The construction and materials are the same.
> 
> For a price, the manufacturer is willing to share the liability with you.
> 
> ...


It's not the wire nut. It's over or under torquing.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

sparkie2010 said:


> The first three require you to return and inspect the joints every year.


What?? Says who?


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## sparkie2010 (Sep 15, 2009)

UL Listing.

Pick it up good read


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## alselec53 (Jan 4, 2012)

sparkie2010 said:


> It's who will certified and insure the customer.
> 
> If you can't have it insured then what's the point. Also can you do the work. Do you have coverage in your policy for this type of work.



I would think if it is legal to use, then it would be covered under ins.
Still not sure about the purple wire nuts being legal just because they sell them at Home Depot. but.. I actually agree that if you tighten them correctly they will last. And, common sense, and logic doesn't always mix with bueaucrocy or on paper.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

sparkie2010 said:


> UL Listing.
> 
> Pick it up good read


youre full of crap.

So what you are telling me is that if I do any of the first 3 things you mentioned in the list, I am required [with or without pay?] to come back in the peoples home and rip all the receptacles out and check the nuts?


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## sparkie2010 (Sep 15, 2009)

TOOL_5150 said:


> youre full of crap.
> 
> So what you are telling me is that if I do any of the first 3 things you mentioned in the list, I am required [with or without pay?] to come back in the peoples home and rip all the receptacles out and check the nuts?


Yes, it's called maintenance. Ever heard of it


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## alselec53 (Jan 4, 2012)

TOOL_5150 said:


> youre full of crap.
> 
> So what you are telling me is that if I do any of the first 3 things you mentioned in the list, I am required [with or without pay?] to come back in the peoples home and rip all the receptacles out and check the nuts?


I don't think he's saying its required, just a good idea. There are lots of things that are good to do for extra safety that don't get done. Almost every house I see, I could find many things wrong, unfortunetly thats life, you can't fix everything.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

sparkie2010 said:


> ...The first three require you to return and inspect the joints every year....


 If I can't trust something to operate safely without yearly supervision, I'm not going to install it. 

But I would also like to see that in writing, because I think you're mistaken.

-John


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Look for old wirenuts on ebay that are rated for use with CU and AL.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

alselec53 said:


> I don't think he's saying its required, just a good idea. .


He said: "The first three require you to return and inspect the joints every year."

I think he fell off his rocker.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Peter D said:


> Look for old wirenuts on ebay that are rated for use with CU and AL.


That only works if it is stamped on the wire nut.. I have never seen it stamped.. only on the box..


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I looked briefly at the alumiconn site and couldn't find any fine print mentioning that. The last thing I want to do is disturb those connections any more than I have to.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

I use purple wire nuts and install AFCI breakers on the circuits that got pigtailed..

That is best way to CYA.. :thumbsup:


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## sparkie2010 (Sep 15, 2009)

Fine you guys are right I'm wrong. Just go on your day, pick up your shovel and go to work. 

I always enjoy seeing electricians working in this field for years and never pick up a book to educate them selves. 

Just use the red wire nut,


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I am very often surprised by what I think I know to be correct. Show us a link to the proof of the need to revisit these connections annually. I would like to know that if its true. I have a customer with one of these mostly aluminum houses that I have spent a few days putting in the alumicons. I felt it was the best way to go. You are right about the lack of space in those small metal boxes. Getting some smart or slider boxes helps with this.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

sparkie2010 said:


> ...I always enjoy seeing electricians working in this field for years and never pick up a book to educate them selves....


 No way is that fair. You're the one who made the claim, you don't get to pretend like I'm ignorant just because I asked for proof.

-John


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

sparkie2010 said:


> Fine you guys are right I'm wrong. Just go on your day, pick up your shovel and go to work.
> 
> I always enjoy seeing electricians working in this field for years and never pick up a book to educate them selves.
> 
> Just use the red wire nut,


Don't get pissed off.. solves nothing..:no::no:

Find the article that backs up this "maintenance" you speak of..

I have never heard it before.. you are the first..


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

sparkie2010 said:


> It's not the wire nut. It's over or under torquing.


...and just what is the proper torque value?


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## sparkie2010 (Sep 15, 2009)

Big John said:


> No way is that fair. You're the one who made the claim, you don't get to pretend like I'm ignorant just because I asked for proof.
> 
> -John


Lol, let find my UL Book

UL Testing is done in these devices. You won't find this on the manufacture site. 

When have you seen a breaker state that if it trips 
it's no longer rated to use. No where, only
In the UL Book. Can't remember if it's the green or blue or white book. I might have the colors wrong but it in there.


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## jimmy21 (Mar 31, 2012)

220/221 said:


> The purple nuts do nothing but cover your ass. The construction and materials are the same.


Not true. They are ever so slightly different. The spring inside them isn't as sharp so that they don't bite in as deep. Do I really think it makes a difference? No. It's just what a rep from alcoa told me at a class for aluminum wire


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

sparkie2010 said:


> Can't remember if it's the green or blue or white book. I might have the colors wrong but it in there.




LOL, I never heard an electrical inspector tell me that before........


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Guessing UL white Book, of which I don't have a copy. Yes we are busting your balls, but I would gladly say thank you if you were correct. I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken....


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## sparkie2010 (Sep 15, 2009)

Celtic said:


> ...and just what is the proper torque value?


Alumicon is 18lb square inch in think.

Bad thing is that the aluminum is never the same. Some times it's to soft and end up smashing it


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

220/221 said:


> The purple nuts do nothing but cover your ass.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


We are talking Purple 65 torque value here....not Alumicon or if the earth is still flat.


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## sparkie2010 (Sep 15, 2009)

Celtic said:


> We are talking Purple 65 torque value here....not Alumicon or if the earth is still flat.


Whatever


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

10 inch lbs #12 AL
15 inch lbs #10 AL or the CU connections

I can't remember how much I paid for the little Wiha tq screwdriver, I'll have to look that up.


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## sparkie2010 (Sep 15, 2009)

http://www.mikeholt.com/documents/nec/pdf/ULwhite2003.pdf

Here's an old book. 

First one to find it gets a beer


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## sparkie2010 (Sep 15, 2009)

http://lms.ulknowledgeservices.com/catalog/display.resource.aspx?resourceid=240003

Ok here is the link to UL and they will send you a book


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Alumiconn has a link to a newer one as well and I don't see it. Mentions use of special tools.


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## Semi-Ret Electrician (Nov 10, 2011)

sparkie2010 said:


> Alumicon is 18lb square inch in think.
> 
> Bad thing is that the aluminum is never the same. Some times it's to soft and end up smashing it


10 lb-in , never had a problem with them


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

Celtic said:


> We are talking Purple 65 torque value here....not Alumicon or if the earth is still flat.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



OMG...you come off all high and mighty like some sort of expert and when questioned you crumble like a cracker over soup.




sparkie2010 said:


> Fine you guys are right I'm wrong. Just go on your day, pick up your shovel and go to work.
> 
> *I always enjoy seeing electricians* working in this field for years and *never pick up a book to educate them selves*.


You are wrong...and whats worse, you are an arrogant hypocrite.

You get called on your BS and then call us uneducated?
Brush up on your reading and get your facts/sources in order BEFORE you test us sparky.


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## sparkie2010 (Sep 15, 2009)

Celtic said:


> OMG...you come off all high and mighty like some sort of expert and when questioned you crumble like a cracker over soup.
> 
> You are wrong...and whats worse, you are an arrogant hypocrite.
> 
> ...


Oh get off your high horse, if you can read I was kidding. Lol

Anyway I'm not a cracker. So get a life and stop getting so touchie feelie like my wife when see watches her girly shows.
Hahahshaha

Plus why would I want to better then you.? We all come here to this forum to share and learn. So I learn and share and learn some more


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## alselec53 (Jan 4, 2012)

Big John said:


> If I can't trust something to operate safely without yearly supervision, I'm not going to install it.
> 
> But I would also like to see that in writing, because I think you're mistaken.
> 
> -John


Thats true, but you think they realized that when installing aluminum wiring in the 70's?


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## crazyboy (Nov 8, 2008)

macmikeman said:


> Not the only way to do it and CYA. I know other options. I talked about one above. There are more.


You're correct, poor choice of wording on my part, I was going on the no TR aluminum recepts though.


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## electrictim510 (Sep 9, 2008)

I prefer alumiconn (or however you spell it). They also have an optional torque method that does not involve a torque wrench, though I prefer the torque wrench for consistency. 

I hate copulum (again, I doubt spelled it right) they rent theIr crimps and will not sell them. Ill turn down a job before I use their product!

Ok... maybe I wont turn it down, but ill have a permafrown the whole time I install them.


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## sparkie2010 (Sep 15, 2009)

ok I learned something else today.

The AA-1350 Aluminum wire is the one that is required to be inspected frequently.

The AA-8XXX wire is closer to copper characteristics and does not require inspection like the older AA-1350 Aluminum. Only with proper termination.

I can't find my book to back up my clean, how ever I did find the NFPA 70B



http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/pubs/516.pdf

ftp://ftpdoe.water.ca.gov/MandEprojects/Electrical/desarno/NFPA/NFPA 70B.pdf

http://fire.nist.gov/bfrlpubs/build77/PDF/b77005.pdf

http://www.esa-tn.com/alumAssocGuide.pdf


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

alselec53 said:


> Thats true, but you think they realized that when installing aluminum wiring in the 70's?


 No, but I meant the repairs. If the repair has to be annually inspected to ensure it remains safe, then in my opinion, it's not a repair.

Sparky2010, I get your point that PM is valuable. I've used 70B for guidance when doing a lot of our maintenance schedules. I also appreciate that old aluminum home wiring requires some special attention. But can we concede the point that it does not actually need _yearly _inspection? I've looked through my copies of the UL White Book and 70B and haven't seen anything that supports that position.

-John


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

As I said before.. put the pigtailed circuits on AFCI breakers and you have nothing to worry about.. very simple solution..

The idea of PM is either ahead of its time or a very good waste of time..


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## sparkie2010 (Sep 15, 2009)

All I can say is that I have not been able to locate the documents that support my claim.

I can confirm that if the wire is labeled with anything other then the AA-8XXX then it is required for frequent inspection to re-certify.

Also if the termination is not approve it will require to be corrected. Wire nuts with Nolox is not approve method because the difference in metals (copper Aluinum)

Again when I locate my book I will be happy to post it.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

jimmy21 said:


> Not true. They are ever so slightly different. The spring inside them isn't as sharp so that they don't bite in as deep. Do I really think it makes a difference? No. It's just what a rep from alcoa told me at a class for aluminum wire


I got my info via email years ago from Ideal. I was surprised that they even responded to me.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

sparkie2010 said:


> Oh get off your high horse, if you can read I was kidding. Lol
> 
> Anyway I'm not a cracker. So get a life and stop getting so touchie feelie like my wife when see watches her girly shows.
> Hahahshaha
> ...


Are you really that guy?

Mocking people because you are wrong?

Thats just sad...

You were joking when you said there is only 4 ways...and one of them was not Purple 65's?

I am all for sharing and learning...but when I see the crap you write, I want to puke. 

Remember these gems?


sparkie2010 said:


> Fine you guys are right I'm wrong. Just go on your day, *pick up your shovel and go to work.
> *
> *I always enjoy seeing electricians* working in this field for years and *never pick up a book to educate them selves.*
> 
> Just use the red wire nut,





sparkie2010 said:


> UL Listing.
> 
> Pick it up good read





sparkie2010 said:


> Yes, it's called maintenance. Ever heard of it


These are not jokes.
That is attitude.
More attitude than a school bus full of drama queens.




sparkie2010 said:


> All I can say is that I have not been able to locate the documents that support my claim.
> 
> I can confirm that if the wire is labeled with anything other then the AA-8XXX then it is required for frequent inspection to re-certify.
> 
> ...


...and this is why I said :


> you come off all high and mighty like some sort of expert and when questioned you crumble like a cracker over soup


Don't get angry with me because I exposed you...learn from it...put on the big boy pants, get over it, and move on.




"When" you find your "book"...post it.....until then...you are only damaging yourself.


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## sparkie2010 (Sep 15, 2009)

COPALUM crimp connector:
The CPSC recognized to be permanent repair and to reduce fire hazard in aluminum circuits. The crimping methods creates a cold weld.


AlumiConn:
As of April 2011, the CPSC has also approved the AlumiConn miniature lug connector as an alternate to the COPALUM connectors for a permanent repair. The AlumiConn pigtail connectors are easier for local electricians to install as they only require the electrician to use a special torque screwdriver.

Ideal No. 65:
Special twist-on connectors have been designed for the purpose of joining aluminum to copper wire, such as the Marrette No. 63 and No. 65 and the Ideal Twister No. 65. These twist-on wire connectors use a special antioxidant paste to prevent corrosion of the connection. They are not recommended for permanent retrofit of entire homes.

Also:
As aluminum and copper are dissimilar metals, galvanic corrosion can occur these connections can become unstable over time.

Receptacle and switchs CO/ALR
This type of device is listed to be used with the new AA-8XXX wire, not the old AA-1350 wire. 

*Correction
My documentation is based on AA-1350 wire. I apologies for the inconvenience that you may have had.* 

The DOE recommends inspection every 6 months for AA-1350 wire or improper termination. Some of our documentation and insurance company requirements is yearly. 

Also:
UL has dropped the listing for the old AA-1350, it is no longer approved. The AA-8XXX and copper wire uses the same UL Listing requirements for testing termination.

Celtic I was having fun, Im no drama queen. Maybe once a month:laughing:

Hope this information helps, there are some contradicting information as with the wire nuts. UL approves listed wire nuts with copper heads to pigtail a wire. However the dissimilar metals are not allowed. I guess use your judgment and consult your insurance broker.


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## alselec53 (Jan 4, 2012)

Where does it say in the code book that you cannot use standard wire nuts with no-lox in them on al to cop wire. I would think it would be better than just leaving the aluminum? Is it code to do this? if I inform the customer of all the options? I don't want to do it wrong either way, I know the special crimps are prob the best way to go. Haa anyone used the switches and recepts that are made for aluminum? I am trying to explain to a Gen Contr these options too, since it is his job.. but he said he's done it the old way before. I'm kinda stuck in the middle.


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## electrictim510 (Sep 9, 2008)

If you dont know what is best to use when it comes to aluminum then you shouldnt deal with it. The existing aluminum wire is far better off without you touching it. Furthermore; if you try to modify it by adding copper into the connection without the proper connector you are making a major fire hazard out of something that was only a minor one.

Making al/cu repairs/maintenance are nothing to take lightly. You can do much more harm than good if you dont have enough education and experience working with it


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## alselec53 (Jan 4, 2012)

*Alum*

You maybe right, but I have done many repairs where the aluminum wiring had burnt the outlet or switch.. melted bad. It seems like if it was redone tightly with no-lox it would be better, but.. I don't want to do it wrong. Worked on a lot of Al wiring, and know its almost always loose and breaks easily. But haven't done the pigtails through out a home yet. So wanna make it easy on the General Contr, but not do it unsafely of course.
So what about the Al recepts & switches I have heard of? Still hate pulling out a recept or switch with Alum attached, everything is so fragile.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

alselec53 said:


> Where does it say in the code book that you cannot use standard wire nuts with no-lox in them on al to cop wire.



110.3(b)


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## denny3992 (Jul 12, 2010)

F R A G I L E " must be italian"


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## alselec53 (Jan 4, 2012)

*Al to copper*



Celtic said:


> 110.3(b)


In my 2011 code book your quote talks about labeling. I guess alumicom conn are the way to go for al to cop connections. The Copplelum needs a special crimper which you have to be trained on I believe.
Still cant find it in the code book.


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## alselec53 (Jan 4, 2012)

*Al to copper*



sparkie2010 said:


> There are only four ways of doing it. The first three require you to return and inspect the joints every year.
> 
> 1. The first Is the crimping method that require you to be certified and to lease there tool.
> 
> ...


This is what I've heard too..

So purple wire nuts are not legal? or regular one with no-lox? Do you have to have the torque screw driver for the Alumiconn? Where can I find out more info?


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## electrictim510 (Sep 9, 2008)

Why do you need to be convinced by code? Arent you concerned about safety? Safety over-rules code anyday.


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## alselec53 (Jan 4, 2012)

*Al to copper*



electrictim510 said:


> Why do you need to be convinced by code? Arent you concerned about safety? Safety over-rules code anyday.


Of course.. I'm just wondering why something that important isn't in the code.
Don't you ever question why things are done? I'm open to learn anything I don't know. And I surely don't know it all.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

If you want a UL compliant installation, you need the torque screwdriver. In my house, I might try the other method listed, but not for customers. I have the screwdriver, not that big of an investment. As for the code, following the instructions so the product is installed as listed. Sure, you could use the the correct wirenuts, not my choice of method. Using regular wirenuts with goo certainly isn't. I'm sure right on that bag of wirenuts it says for copper only.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

alselec53 said:


> In my 2011 code book your quote talks about labeling. I guess alumicom conn are the way to go for al to cop connections. The Copplelum needs a special crimper which you have to be trained on I believe.
> Still cant find it in the code book.





2011 NEC said:


> 110.3(B) Installation and Use.
> Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling.


Alumicom, Coppelum...are probably some products that will work.....

Ideal Purple 65's are another way to go...and requires no "special crimper which you have to be trained on" ...and purchase/lease also.


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## sparkie2010 (Sep 15, 2009)

alselec53 said:


> This is what I've heard too..
> 
> So purple wire nuts are not legal? or regular one with no-lox? Do you have to have the torque screw driver for the Alumiconn? Where can I find out more info?


Klein makes a good one


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Wiha too.


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## kennydmeek (Sep 12, 2009)

Purple wire nuts and alumicon connectors are both compliant and you don't have to have the torque screwdriver. It says right on the package that compliance is achieved by one full turn after touchdown on aluminum and one half turn after touchdown with copper. After about 100 of them you get a feel for it. I just did 243 joints in a house that was 38 years old and none of the original work had been compromised whatsoever and all they used was black wire nuts. The problems came after the fact when someone made a bad joint attaching copper to an original joint. When I installed the combination arc fault breakers it forced me to find a bad splice behind a blank plate in a closet behind a pile of crap. I'm thinking that arc fault breaker may have saved that house as there was a meltdown. I used a combination of both of the above for repairs, and frankly I would trust my splices with the purple wirenut over the screw down..but that's just my gut. They've had years to perfect these products, and sure you see the pictures of the burnt out purple wire nut, but that isn't the wire nut. It's the crappy splice underneath. The job was a bit of a nightmare but I'd do it again for a grand more than I charged this time...The inspector was impressed.


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