# Concrete Building Construction



## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

are you referring to precast concrete buildings aka tip up walls?


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

Mister Sparkle said:


> Am I wrong, or does it seem like we electricians always get screwed when the job fall behind schedule.
> Our window to install becomes smaller because of the pressure to pour concrete.
> Have many of you experienced such problems? If you have, *what have you done to rectify the situation?* If everything is smooth, is it a result of good scheduling from the general contractor?


...show up at night and remove all the forms the night before the pour?







kidding

if everything is scheduled correctly, things run like clockwork, that's what distinguishes a great construction manager/GC from the rest


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## Mister Sparkle (Apr 5, 2013)

ponyboy said:


> are you referring to precast concrete buildings aka tip up walls?


I am talking about slabs with a bunch of structural steel, bottom and top steel.


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## Mister Sparkle (Apr 5, 2013)

360max said:


> ...show up at night and remove all the forms the night before the pour?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You are absolutely right about scheduling. There seems to be fewer and fewer great managers. 
Slabs, in general, are a very go-go mentality. Why do you think that is? 
The pressure to get concrete poured is ridiculous. It should be poured when the slab is finished.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

It's all about money and the less time the less it costs.

They do not care it makes things harder, get used to it or change jobs because it is only going to get worse.


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

Mister Sparkle said:


> I am talking about slabs with a bunch of structural steel, bottom and top steel.


Well the contractor or any construction manager doesnt care about electrical conduit . All they care about is getting there scope done on time
on your dollar .
This is on every job since i can remember in the trade . Were pouring concrete you better be ready .

Bottom line what schedule never seen one that was correct in 36 years and if you work on big projects they have a way of changing it every week to stack trades when they used up all the float time fixing there screw ups . 

You keep your daily reports and records and dated photos everyday of issues holding you up start stop when were because they will turn it around on you in a heart beat.

I like it when they bump it up you will be done on this date but we held you up for 6 months. 

Just keep in mind we will fine you $10,000 dollars a day until were done because we held you up because were idiots.


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## LightsOn81 (Jan 6, 2012)

I'm just finishing up on my building where that was the situation.

The best advice I can give is documentation and stand your ground.

Documentation because it seems that GCs kiss every trades tail except plumbers and Electricians. Our GC now let's the concrete contractor make his own schedule. They pour in no coherent order, they leave a mess everywhere. They break pipes and run equipment where there should be hand digging. When you take pictures, bill for repairs, find where their prints don't match what's done in the field, they get pissy but they also know you ain't a pushover, so they back off.

Be efficient in how you work, abide by the contract go 100%, and stay on it till its done. GCs are always running around with their hair on fire. Don't let them cover you up.


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## LightsOn81 (Jan 6, 2012)

Pipe runner, you must be working on the project I'm on lol


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

Well i have a goal here today iam going to have 1000 post one way or another unless i get banned. lol 

Heres a typical photo of daily damage bottom line we never get paid when its all said and done . 1 cent on the dollar if your lucky because the big boys know more than us in the office and they wheel and deal so they look good and we look bad its on every job never changes ever .

First photo top someone dumped concrete down pipe we put acid inside one week later its clear. Labor lost 
Third photo after two weeks of acid we pulled a mandrel and that came out cleared this is another conduit concrete pumped full by others.
Bottom photo the holes you see are my conduit sleeves they pour the walls before the decks are done which is tuff for electricians because all your conduits need to be in the walls horizontally before deck to deck on each side . 
Then they drill 10 inch deep holes in the shear walls and expoxy the deck rods at 8 inch centers along the wall this is a big help for electrical conduits already installed in walls vertically . 
Yes this is a 9 story structure lots of fun .


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

Mister Sparkle said:


> Am I wrong, or does it seem like we electricians always get screwed when the job fall behind schedule.
> Our window to install becomes smaller because of the pressure to pour concrete.
> Have many of you experienced such problems? If you have, what have you done to rectify the situation? If everything is smooth, is it a result of good scheduling from the general contractor?


No , you're not wrong at all . I've been on jobs where the schedules are so tight , all of our underground ( except feeders and service ) were eliminated . Not enough guys or time to keep up with the pours . A bad GC , construction manager and spineless EC foreman , can make this a nightmare real quick ! One job in particular , had two huge gyms that the GC got ready for concrete simultaneously ( this was not on the schedule that way ) . Our schedule gave us a week to do our underground in each gym . We get the one one done an the GC foreman wants to pour both , lol ? Needless to say , we didn't let him , but this crap happens more and more . Why do you think so many guys get change orders to go overhead with all mc cable ?


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## Acadian9 (Jun 6, 2009)

I know what it feels like to be under pressure. No-one on the slab respects our trade.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Man. I must be way behind the times with construction. I've never seen slab work done with ENT before. Looks like some of those would be nightmare pulls.


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## Acadian9 (Jun 6, 2009)

Big John said:


> Man. I must be way behind the times with construction. I've never seen slab work done with ENT before. Looks like some of those would be nightmare pulls.


Not as band as you think actually. The stub downs are usually the worst part (especially when some idiot steps on it.)


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

That first picture you posted, is that actually ENT? Looks shiny and smooth like it might be carflex.


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## ckeely (Dec 6, 2012)

piperunner said:


> Well i have a goal here today iam going to have 1000 post one way or another unless i get banned. lol
> 
> Heres a typical photo of daily damage bottom line we never get paid when its all said and done . 1 cent on the dollar if your lucky because the big boys know more than us in the office and they wheel and deal so they look good and we look bad its on every job never changes ever .
> 
> ...


I see you used ENT in the walls and slab. Did you use the 1000' and 750' reels? How did it go for you? Other trades have issues with you using it? Are you union or non-union? How was pulling wire through?

Reason: I am finishing up a 65,000 2 story cast in place concrete and CMU job. Used the same product as you. Heard belly-aching from the masons on the slab and walls and CMU. Heard belly-aching from the iron workers as well. I really liked how the install went and pulling went easy. We had multiple areas where the GC didn't lay out for rebar so they drilled and epoxy them in later. That proved to be a disaster as they ended up chopping concrete all over to repair what they hit! We are non-union and taking heat over using it here on Maui. Seems that they don't like new labor saving products?!?


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## Acadian9 (Jun 6, 2009)

Big John said:


> That first picture you posted, is that actually ENT? Looks shiny and smooth like it might be carflex.


Here's a better picture. It's all cor-line (ENT). It's the only way we can get the job done in a few hours.


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## LightsOn81 (Jan 6, 2012)

Forgive me for sounding closed minded, but smurf tube in a slab? Sounds like a recipe for disaster. I can see using it in tilt walls but in a slab?


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## Acadian9 (Jun 6, 2009)

LightsOn81 said:


> Forgive me for sounding closed minded, but smurf tube in a slab? Sounds like a recipe for disaster. I can see using it in tilt walls but in a slab?


I've never seen a slab without cor-line. It's the standard here in Toronto. There's no way we can do our job any other way. Not enough time for PVC and/or EMT. We only have a few hours for installation before it's covered in concrete and with the amount of conduit we run (1000's of feet) how else can we do it? I work in condo's where there is no drop ceiling on the typical floors. Everything must be done in the slab (Fire Alarm, communications, EM systems, corridor lighting, suite lighting and receptacles, etc.) We use PVC in the walls for other things, but other than that it's cor-line.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Acadian9 said:


> I've never seen a slab without cor-line. It's the standard here in Toronto. There's no way we can do our job any other way. Not enough time for PVC and/or EMT. We only have a few hours for installation before it's covered in concrete and with the amount of conduit we run (1000's of feet) how else can we do it? I work in condo's where there is no drop ceiling on the typical floors. Everything must be done in the slab (Fire Alarm, communications, EM systems, corridor lighting, suite lighting and receptacles, etc.) We use PVC in the walls for other things, but other than that it's cor-line.


In the old days (seventies) I was doing high rise jobs along Fort Myers Beach and there was time to do the slabs in EMT. Then they invented blue Ent and suddenly there is not time for the EMT any longer............ 

That is what is not great about time saving inventions. The time saving falls into the wrong hands. And quality be dammed.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

piperunner said:


> Well the contractor or any construction manager doesnt care about electrical conduit . All they care about is getting there scope done on time
> on your dollar .
> This is on every job since i can remember in the trade . Were pouring concrete you better be ready .
> ........


This. All day long, every day.

The worst case I've ever experienced is I got a call for a restaurant build from the GC on a Wednesday, "Hey, just letting you know, we're pouring the slab next Wednesday. So if there's anything you need to get in there, you'd better get on it!"

OK, cool. I only have half a days worth of in-slab work. So I pull up Friday morning, and the forms are already set and rebar in place. Plus, there's a bunch of guys pulling on rubber boots. "Hey, guys! What's going on?"

Response from the concrete guys: "The first truck will be here in 10 minutes." I immediately went to the GC super's trailer to find out the he11 is going on. He said, "Well, since you didn't show up yesterday, I figured you didn't have anything in the slab."

An hour later, pipe was getting covered before the glue was set up.


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

Acadian9 said:


> I've never seen a slab without cor-line. It's the standard here in Toronto. There's no way we can do our job any other way. Not enough time for PVC and/or EMT. We only have a few hours for installation before it's covered in concrete and with the amount of conduit we run (1000's of feet) how else can we do it? I work in condo's where there is no drop ceiling on the typical floors. Everything must be done in the slab (Fire Alarm, communications, EM systems, corridor lighting, suite lighting and receptacles, etc.) We use PVC in the walls for other things, but other than that it's cor-line.


In all my years of commercial work , I've never seen or installed ENT in a slab . Walls maybe , door jambs maybe ( security / card access ) , but never in a slab . I don't personally have. Problem with it , but the job specs I've been on would never allow it . At that point , you've got two choices PVC or rigid and nobody puts rigid in unless they're made to , with the exception of 90's in long runs and 90's out of the slab . Where I think it could start to look pretty hack and unprofessional would be where it comes out of a slab say surface mount to a panel . Hard to make that look decent , unless you've got them nicely spaced on strut before the pour . I can see where it would be a real timesaver , but why in the world are you given so little time to rough in a slab / deck ? That sounds like horrendous construction management at work !


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

drumnut08 said:


> but why in the world are you given so little time to rough in a slab / deck ? That sounds like horrendous construction management at work !


Because time is money and in the end all the lights and outlets still work making the customer happy.

No building tenant cares if it was hard or easy for the EC and they don't care if the outlets are supplied by RMC, ENT or zip cord.


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

BBQ said:


> Because time is money and in the end all the lights and outlets still work making the customer happy.
> 
> No building tenant cares if it was hard or easy for the EC and they don't care if the outlets are supplied by RMC, ENT or zip cord.


Oh , I know why , but even in my pre union days we were always given a little more time than a few hours to rough in a slab ! It just seems the ridiculous time frames that are expected to get jobs done anymore , really impacts the finished product . Maybe not immediately , but somewhere down the line , something suffers . The " lick it and stick it " approach to building trades in general usually turns out a less than superior structure and I'm not just talking about electrical either . I guess it's the world we live in ?


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

drumnut08 said:


> The " lick it and stick it " approach to building trades in general usually turns out a less than superior structure and I'm not just talking about electrical either .


I agree 100%, but it is what we do in most cases.



> I guess it's the world we live in ?


I believe so.

One thing I see all the time is that the construction budgets are under one groups control and the upkeep under a another groups control meaning the construction group is not really concerned about future costs just immediate costs.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

drumnut08 said:


> Oh , I know why , but even in my pre union days we were always given a little more time than a few hours to rough in a slab ! It just seems the ridiculous time frames that are expected to get jobs done anymore , really impacts the finished product . Maybe not immediately , but somewhere down the line , something suffers . The " lick it and stick it " approach to building trades in general usually turns out a less than superior structure and I'm not just talking about electrical either . I guess it's the world we live in ?


The problem is the attitude towards benchmarking these days. It used to be if the task had three time frames it was completed in the past (4 hours, 6 hours and 8 hours), 6 hours was the benchmark.

Today, with the same numbers, the standard is, "Well, if it has been done in 4 hours, they certainly can get a few more guys here and hustle,..... so 2 hours is God's plenty!"


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## Acadian9 (Jun 6, 2009)

drumnut08 said:


> In all my years of commercial work , I've never seen or installed ENT in a slab . Walls maybe , door jambs maybe ( security / card access ) , but never in a slab . I don't personally have. Problem with it , but the job specs I've been on would never allow it . At that point , you've got two choices PVC or rigid and nobody puts rigid in unless they're made to , with the exception of 90's in long runs and 90's out of the slab . Where I think it could start to look pretty hack and unprofessional would be where it comes out of a slab say surface mount to a panel . Hard to make that look decent , unless you've got them nicely spaced on strut before the pour . I can see where it would be a real time saver , but why in the world are you given so little time to rough in a slab / deck ? That sounds like horrendous construction management at work !


Welcome to high-rise, Toronto style. Every job is like this. I usually have the layout done the day before when they fly up the panels, but conduit installation starts as soon as the bottom steel is done and within hours, concrete is poured. It's all production here. 

Yesterday I went in with 3 other people, rebar was done, worked 4 hours straight (no break) to have the communication distribution done. Top steel was on top of us as we were running the 1 1/4" cor-line. Management cares more about concrete than my pipes.

There is several ways we bring pipes into a panel. Shroud, Box in wall with extension box with a hole on top feeding into the panel and surface mount into the panel.


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## toolaholic (Aug 13, 2010)

*Stay on schedule*

Why should other trades wait on You ? Get more help.


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## Acadian9 (Jun 6, 2009)

toolaholic said:


> Why should other trades wait on You ? Get more help.


We do get more help when we need it. Problem is that as soon as the bottom steel is done, the rodbusters want to do the top steel immediately, WHILE we are working. Not even 15 minutes later do they want to do the top steel. 

There was one day where there was 4 suites to pipe. We did 3 and went to the 4th. The bottom steel wasn't tied (so we cannot run our conduit) and all the rodbusters were doing top steel. Bad planning on their foreman's part was the problem, not our lack of workers.


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

Acadian9 said:


> We do get more help when we need it. Problem is that as soon as the bottom steel is done, the rodbusters want to do the top steel immediately, WHILE we are working. Not even 15 minutes later do they want to do the top steel.
> 
> There was one day where there was 4 suites to pipe. We did 3 and went to the 4th. The bottom steel wasn't tied (so we cannot run our conduit) and all the rodbusters were doing top steel. Bad planning on their foreman's part was the problem, not our lack of workers.


Sounds like a Chinese fire drill to me , lol ? They tried pushing a parking garage like that near m a few years ago . That didn't turn out so well , considering it collapsed and killed at least one worker ! Turns out , the construction manager was pushing the pours too fast and levels were still green which caused the whole thing to collapse ! I'm all for speeding things up to be more competitive , but at what cost ? Some things can only be rushed so much before disaster takes over .


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## Acadian9 (Jun 6, 2009)

Last summer, each floor was completed in 5 days with 3 pours. Mind you, the rebar on this job isn't what you typically see. The beams take 3 guys at least an hour each to do.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

toolaholic said:


> Why should other trades wait on You ? Get more help.


Yet God forbid if should we even _think_ of burying some other trade.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

I'm sure glad I can say up yours to those jobs.


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

ckeely said:


> I see you used ENT in the walls and slab. Did you use the 1000' and 750' reels? How did it go for you? Other trades have issues with you using it? Are you union or non-union? How was pulling wire through?
> 
> Reason: I am finishing up a 65,000 2 story cast in place concrete and CMU job. Used the same product as you. Heard belly-aching from the masons on the slab and walls and CMU. Heard belly-aching from the iron workers as well. I really liked how the install went and pulling went easy. We had multiple areas where the GC didn't lay out for rebar so they drilled and epoxy them in later. That proved to be a disaster as they ended up chopping concrete all over to repair what they hit! We are non-union and taking heat over using it here on Maui. Seems that they don't like new labor saving products?!?


 Hey BRO you have the wrong post thats not my work we dont run ENT never have never will . What or how your got my name on that post is nothing i posted on ET .


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## ckeely (Dec 6, 2012)

piperunner said:


> Hey BRO you have the wrong post that not my work we dont run ENT never have never will .


Sorry, Was on Iphone and must have clicked the wrong post to reply to.


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

ckeely said:


> Sorry, Was on Iphone and must have clicked the wrong post to reply to.


 bro its ok it happens . LOL you were freakin me out


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## Acadian9 (Jun 6, 2009)

piperunner said:


> Heres old time PVC in decks bro its ok it happens . LOL you were freakin me out


How long did that take you? How many guys?


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

Acadian9 said:


> How long did that take you? How many guys?


Well i only do the distribution part of the decks i layout the electrical rooms install my sleeves and walk away . But the crews who do the decks have 3 days or so what we do is after the deck is down we get are control lines shot.
Then we get one day to layout everything on deck . Then the rod buster 
lays down bottom matt we go in and install first layer of conduits . Then the rod buster lays mid matt after that we come back and install second layer of conduits . Then the rod buster comes back and installs the top matt at this time were all in each others faces with one more conduit layer . But we have a bigger crew so we dont take crap from them .LOL Its a 3 or 4 day process with 10 men unless they forget to install a beam or screw something up then its time wasted .
We never miss a date were on time but the job is behind because were waiting on other trades to get done or answers from the engineer who doesnt have a clue on how to build a structure .So its a normal job


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

piperunner said:


> Well i only do the distribution part of the decks i layout the electrical rooms install my sleeves and walk away . But the crews who do the decks have 3 days or so what we do is after the deck is down we get are control lines shot.
> Then we get one day to layout everything on deck . Then the rod buster
> lays down bottom matt we go in and install first layer of conduits . Then the rod buster lays mid matt after that we come back and install second layer of conduits . Then the rod buster comes back and installs the top matt at this time were all in each others faces with one more conduit layer . But we have a bigger crew so we dont take crap from them .LOL Its a 3 or 4 day process with 10 men unless they forget to install a beam or screw something up then its time wasted .
> We never miss a date were on time but the job is behind because were waiting on other trades to get done or answers from the engineer who doesnt have a clue on how to build a structure .So its a normal job


Do the engineers ever have a clue , lol ? The three biggest factors in slowing down construction are usually , bad architects , bad engineers and bad GC's . Construction managers usually have their hands in slowing things down too while making up new and more ridiculous schedules , lol ! When none of that exists , a project runs smooth , gets done on time or early , a d people actually have fun while working . I've seen it a few times , but not recently .


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

drumnut08 said:


> Do the engineers ever have a clue , lol ? The three biggest factors in slowing down construction are usually , bad architects , bad engineers and bad GC's . Construction managers usually have their hands in slowing things down too while making up new and more ridiculous schedules , lol ! When none of that exists , a project runs smooth , gets done on time or early , a d people actually have fun while working . I've seen it a few times , but not recently .


Well this is job is a cluster ---- from the get go lots of issues bad drawnings bad engineering lack of supervision on there end not ours but yes i agree never seen one run smooth but we always make it on time . We just pull together and bring in 200 electricians and it gets done . I gotta add this project managers are useless they need to stay in the trailer once they open there mouths its over yes we can do that oh yes we can get that done in one hour :laughing:


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## Acadian9 (Jun 6, 2009)

piperunner said:


> Well i only do the distribution part of the decks i layout the electrical rooms install my sleeves and walk away . But the crews who do the decks have 3 days or so what we do is after the deck is down we get are control lines shot.
> Then we get one day to layout everything on deck . Then the rod buster
> lays down bottom matt we go in and install first layer of conduits . Then the rod buster lays mid matt after that we come back and install second layer of conduits . Then the rod buster comes back and installs the top matt at this time were all in each others faces with one more conduit layer . But we have a bigger crew so we dont take crap from them .LOL Its a 3 or 4 day process with 10 men unless they forget to install a beam or screw something up then its time wasted .
> We never miss a date were on time but the job is behind because were waiting on other trades to get done or answers from the engineer who doesnt have a clue on how to build a structure .So its a normal job


I'm jealous. Typically, there's 4-5 electricians on slab. Electrical rooms we bring in a few extra guys, but there is no set time for us to work. As soon as the deck is ready to mark, we layout all our devices (lights, speakers, heat detectors, etc.), where our pipe is stubbed up (panels, communication tubs mainly) and sleeves. Once we are done screwing down the boxes/sleeves, the rodbusters start the bottom steel. We run our conduit and usually when we are done, they do the top steel. I've never seen a middle layer. Depending on the size of the pour, the bottom steel is done one day and top steel the next, but typically it's done the same day with or without conduit.


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## FastFokker (Sep 18, 2012)

What do you guys use who don't use ENT in slab, pvc pipe?

ENT (cor-line) is standard in Vancouver as well. 

Works great and is cheap, but on occasion you will lose a run, due to some concrete guy jumping on your connections and popping one out during pour.


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## Acadian9 (Jun 6, 2009)

FastFokker said:


> What do you guys use who don't use ENT in slab, pvc pipe?
> 
> ENT (cor-line) is standard in Vancouver as well.
> 
> Works great and is cheap, but on occasion you will lose a run, due to some concrete guy jumping on your connections and popping one out during pour.


I think it is mainly a Canadian thing to use.


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## Mister Sparkle (Apr 5, 2013)

Nice to see all the input everyone has on this subject and to see
that everyone seems to be on the same page as I am.

My slab was a main floor slab/transfer slab. My electrical room ceiling slab so the slab would take a bit more time. Had to do partial layout over two days because the carpenters couldn't get the deck done in time. First day of bottom steel, only three rod men. Following day on my time on deck, bottom steel not done and 20 rod men show up throwing bottom steel all over the place, no rhyme or reason or plan. Couldn't start pulling conduit but had to call for inspection to meet deadline for inspections before a Saturday pour.
After wasting most of my deck time watching 20 rod men walking around dropping steel everywhere I went to the site trailer to give the Manager a piece of my mind and a lesson on how such construction should take place.
I ripped into him and all he could say was "What do you want me to do?"
Who is supposed to be running the site? 
I haven't seen an up to date schedule since near the beginning of the year and by then they were already a month late.


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

Acadian9 said:


> I'm jealous. Typically, there's 4-5 electricians on slab. Electrical rooms we bring in a few extra guys, but there is no set time for us to work. As soon as the deck is ready to mark, we layout all our devices (lights, speakers, heat detectors, etc.), where our pipe is stubbed up (panels, communication tubs mainly) and sleeves. Once we are done screwing down the boxes/sleeves, the rodbusters start the bottom steel. We run our conduit and usually when we are done, they do the top steel. I've never seen a middle layer. Depending on the size of the pour, the bottom steel is done one day and top steel the next, but typically it's done the same day with or without conduit.


 Heres a typical slab on our project thickness from 6 foot deep to 15 inch and the smallest one is 6 1/4 inches in depth. The wooden block outs are for conduits which go into the bottom of the switchboards from below


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## Mister Sparkle (Apr 5, 2013)

piperunner said:


> Heres a typical slab on our project thickness from 6 foot deep to 15 inch and the smallest one is 6 1/4 inches in depth. The wooden block outs are for conduits which go into the bottom of the switchboards from below



Nice work piperunner :thumbsup:.

What type of building is all this pipe for?


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

Mister Sparkle said:


> Nice work piperunner :thumbsup:.
> 
> What type of building is all this pipe for?


Well no one knows yet! The engineers have not figured that one out yet .
:laughing:


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## LightsOn81 (Jan 6, 2012)

Here in Eastern NC we mainly use Sch 40. 

The slab I'm wrapping up now has been a mess. First, the GC didn't ensure the Concrete conntractor removed enough excess dirt after the spread footers were poured. He just leveled it off. We asked the GC if the dirt was athe right elevation for him to get 6in. Of rock and for the slab. Yeah sure they say. So we go to work. They didnt get a surveyor for a long time. Next issue, as we were laying out walls I discovered there was a four inch bust on all the dimensions. It took 6 weeks for the engineers and architects and the GC to get it all figured out so we were limited in what we could do. Wat should have taken 3 weeks tops at that point was now about 2 months behind. So I lost 6 head to other buildings cuz I couldn't keep all of us busy. The whole time the GC is like, we wanna rock it and get ready to pour. Pushing us hard. We are like, dude we ain't got all our pipe in the ground cuz you and the design team can't get your heads and tails wired together. So after they get it straightened out, they decide the plumbers need to put a vapor mitigation pipe in the dirt. Another hold up because we just finished our part of the slab, so we had to babysit the plumbers. Then they found out there was too much dirt in the building. No kidding. We been told you (the GC) that. So we had to babysit them too. My boss has been giving the GC and the concrete guys pure hell over this. He's holding their feet to the fire, which he rightfully should. We are taking pictures of every broken conduit we fix on account of this lack of coordination. 

So they are laying rock, the bug man comes in, and they lay the plastic. I still got 26 floor boxes and rod busters show up and they are in the great big hurry. First, out of this building that is 325'x125' they want to start right where you are. We ain't having that mess. They start dropping rod on my guys. My right hand tells them where to stick it. My supervisor calls the GC and says, if the rod busters drop one more rod on us or covers us up, we are cutting every shred of vapor barrier out and throwing it out the building.

Electricians are only slow cuz we have so much to do to ensure that it's right. If you get it out the ground neatly and accurately, that's less floor to chip, less block to re face. A Good start/slab means a good finish.


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

Mister Sparkle said:


> Nice to see all the input everyone has on this subject and to see
> that everyone seems to be on the same page as I am.
> 
> My slab was a main floor slab/transfer slab. My electrical room ceiling slab so the slab would take a bit more time. Had to do partial layout over two days because the carpenters couldn't get the deck done in time. First day of bottom steel, only three rod men. Following day on my time on deck, bottom steel not done and 20 rod men show up throwing bottom steel all over the place, no rhyme or reason or plan. Couldn't start pulling conduit but had to call for inspection to meet deadline for inspections before a Saturday pour.
> ...


" what do you want me to do ? " , lol ! How about , your job and help coordinate trades so we're not all on too of each other , lol ? Clueless GC 's and construction managers will kill a job in a heartbeat ! I've been there , so I know how you feel . I've had concrete being poured on my heels trying to finish a slab an I've gotten slabs ready ahead of schedule when they're screaming for them to get done , only to watch the slab not be poured for a week or two , lol ! Like I said , the jobs that run smooth as silk anymore are few and far between unfortunately . Bottom line is , the electrical shouldn't be an afterthought and adequate time needs to be given to us to get our work done , not " concrete is on the way , hope you don't have anything in there " !


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## Acadian9 (Jun 6, 2009)

piperunner said:


> Heres a typical slab on our project thickness from 6 foot deep to 15 inch and the smallest one is 6 1/4 inches in depth. The wooden block outs are for conduits which go into the bottom of the switchboards from below


 That makes my work look like child's play haha. I love working with PVC but the cost is too much for my boss to handle and the time required to install it doesn't work for me.  Really long runs (100's of feet) I do use PVC but those small runs of less than 10 feet are always cor-line. I'm going to show these pics to the guys at work lol.


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

Well ive read each post laughing its not just in one state or country its world wide this is good to hear thanks . Gee i just thought our state was full of idiot contractors and engineers thanks for the info i feel better now knowing . This must be part of the learning process when they attend college remember dont give a complete answer to the electrical contractor ever.
Now wait until they install all there conduit and change the thickness of the slab or add rebar in the electrical room were we forgot a beam . 
Install the walls 9 stories up then come back and pour the decks this will save time and help the electrical guys .
Make the guys wear safety glass all day a safety vest in the building and have a harness with work gloves and hard hat and tools on all day when climbing on a ladder hanging 4 inch conduit this is safe! When its 102 degrees inside the building and your sweating you cant see out of your glasses and you get hung up on something while your on the ladder tied off with a harness so you dont fall 6 foot . WTF :laughing:

I would like to work just one job with one engineer from start to finish with us side by side so they know .


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

piperunner said:


> Well ive read each post laughing its not just in one state or country its world wide this is good to hear thanks . Gee i just thought our state was full of idiot contractors and engineers thanks for the info i feel better now knowing . This must be part of the learning process when they attend college remember dont give a complete answer to the electrical contractor ever.
> Now wait until they install all there conduit and change the thickness of the slab or add rebar in the electrical room were we forgot a beam .
> Install the walls 9 stories up then come back and pour the decks this will save time and help the electrical guys .
> Make the guys wear safety glass all day a safety vest in the building and have a harness with work gloves and hard hat and tools on all day when climbing on a ladder hanging 4 inch conduit this is safe! When its 102 degrees inside the building and your sweating you cant see out of your glasses and you get hung up on something while your on the ladder tied off with a harness so you dont fall 6 foot . WTF :laughing:
> ...


They'll know alright ! They'll know that part of being an engineer , should be real on-site construction experience , not just what they learned in school and how to put things on paper one dimensionally , lol ! Yeah , I think it's safe to say dysfunction in all form of construction is world wide , lol !


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## Stan B. (Jul 25, 2008)

Acadian9 said:


> I know what it feels like to be under pressure. No-one on the slab respects our trade.


Honestly, with the way it looks, why should they? I worked my first real slab job last year and with core-line strewn everywhere it is a garbage install through-and-through. Even with a guy watching the pour and a pocket full of repair couplings, there was still plenty of broken core-line. We've had to run a bunch of surface conduit anyhow for changes (and the afforementioned broken core-line) but fortunately this is an institutional building with mostly drop ceilings so it doesn't matter too much. What do you do in a condo building where you don't have that luxury, spend a year pouring vinegar? Or do you add redundancy? 

I'm not saying that we need to go back to using rigid conduit (long before my time anyhow) but PVC wouldn't be that much slower. With all the surface conduit we've had to run, I doubt that the labour costs turned out to be that much less anyhow.


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## Acadian9 (Jun 6, 2009)

Stan B. said:


> Honestly, with the way it looks, why should they? I worked my first real slab job last year and with core-line strewn everywhere it is a garbage install through-and-through. Even with a guy watching the pour and a pocket full of repair couplings, there was still plenty of broken core-line. We've had to run a bunch of surface conduit anyhow for changes (and the afforementioned broken core-line) but fortunately this is an institutional building with mostly drop ceilings so it doesn't matter too much. What do you do in a condo building where you don't have that luxury, spend a year pouring vinegar? Or do you add redundancy?
> 
> I'm not saying that we need to go back to using rigid conduit (long before my time anyhow) but PVC wouldn't be that much slower. With all the surface conduit we've had to run, I doubt that the labour costs turned out to be that much less anyhow.


:lol: How is running PVC from box to box not that much slower than running cor-line (knock tab on box, snap it, run to next box, knock tab on box cut cor-line, snap in)? PVC needs to be measured, cut, tied to angle (or elbows and 90's added), glued and tied to keep in place. I'm sorry, but I've run both types on conduit and hands down, PVC is far slower than cor-line.

One coil of cor-line (1/2") is 360ft. That's the equivalent of 36 stick's of 10ft PVC. I can carry two coils of 1/2" cor-line (720ft) but can only carry maybe 200ft of PVC?

If a pipe breaks in the slab after they pour, we grab the chipping gun. It's still cheaper to chip the occasional pipe than to spend a fortune on PVC and use twice the guys to install it.


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## Stan B. (Jul 25, 2008)

Acadian9 said:


> run to next box


I guess that's it in a nutshell, it's become like residential, 'running-shoe' electric. Even the steel guys take more pride in their work and work at their pace. Electricans are the cheapest whores around.


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## Acadian9 (Jun 6, 2009)

Stan B. said:


> I guess that's it in a nutshell, it's become like residential, 'running-shoe' electric. Even the steel guys take more pride in their work and work at their pace. Electricans are the cheapest whores around.


Wow well aren't you funny. You made a joke.


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## glen1971 (Oct 10, 2012)

I think I just threw up a little looking at Acadian's slab work.. Glad that there are still projects like Piperunner's around that can show that electricians can be craftsmen and do decent work.. Offsets that match, couplings that line up, straight conduits, etc.. Not just a bunch of hoses strung in a slab with little rhyme or reason...


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

Well i say we cant use it thats our specs but it is used in Florida they call it smurf tube down here. And its used on condos mostly yes its fast .
Rule one pull your wire before they pour the deck .

We pull all our wire before they pour concrete even with pvc . The boxes open up on the top so during the conduit process we are also pulling all the wire box to box . 

I like seeing other electricians installs you see how or whats done to me its 
the same application just different methods or materials what one does or how they do it i still respect one coming on here and showing there work. 
I think your work is fine you can not make Ent look straight its just that way .
Iam from Florida we have building codes which are tuff and we must go by what is acceptable in this area we all have different standards . 

What i see maybe to help you in your issues of poking out at the break point of that slab joint to prevent damage of ENT have you thought of using PVC sleeves over the ENT stubs to protect it in that key way . Where they broke your conduits off just a thought . 

Years ago we ran EMT and still do today in decks PVC has taken over.
We had issues with EMT it leaked it bent it came apart . PVC can be 
broken just as easy as ENT . Only thing i see is pull the wire before they pour because of the waves in the conduit flowing across the deck .
Take care have fun


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## Acadian9 (Jun 6, 2009)

glen1971 said:


> I think I just threw up a little looking at Acadian's slab work.. Glad that there are still projects like Piperunner's around that can show that electricians can be craftsmen and do decent work.. Offsets that match, couplings that line up, straight conduits, etc.. Not just a bunch of hoses strung in a slab with little rhyme or reason...


I understand that it doesn't look nice, but to say I don't do decent work is ridiculous. There is no other way to do my job. It is out of necessity that I run cor-line as it's all I'm given. After seeing that electricians down south have days to do the job where I get hours makes me wish I was down there haha.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Acadian9 said:


> I understand that it doesn't look nice, but to say I don't do decent work is ridiculous.


It is ridiculous, don't let that crap get to you.


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## stuiec (Sep 25, 2010)

What he said. You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear...


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

Acadian9 said:


> I understand that it doesn't look nice, but to say I don't do decent work is ridiculous. There is no other way to do my job. It is out of necessity that I run cor-line as it's all I'm given. After seeing that electricians down south have days to do the job where I get hours makes me wish I was down there haha.


Well i can tell you it looks good for that many cor-line conduits no one is going to get it better ive seen it done in florida and its no different .

I wish i had a photo they use it in multi story condos you can not get it level or straight so dont let anyone get to ya . This is typical on this forum trust me .

Nice job at least you put up your work bro i dont see anyone else putting it up . Now post some stuff of you gear rooms when you get done and ill share mind with ya when i get mine done .


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## adroga (Mar 3, 2011)

Does it really matter if couplings line up and offsets match in concrete? 

I would think minimizing angles to make pulling easier more important.

Man do people nitpick details here without realizing the bigger picture.


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## AlbertaBeef (Mar 30, 2013)

adroga said:


> Does it really matter if couplings line up and offsets match in concrete?
> 
> I would think minimizing angles to make pulling easier more important.
> 
> Man do people nitpick details here without realizing the bigger picture.


It is really easy to criticize when it isn't their own money on the line.


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## glen1971 (Oct 10, 2012)

adroga said:


> Does it really matter if couplings line up and offsets match in concrete?
> 
> I would think minimizing angles to make pulling easier more important.
> 
> Man do people nitpick details here without realizing the bigger picture.


Not in slab work...Definately less angles is better...


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## glen1971 (Oct 10, 2012)

Acadian9 said:


> I understand that it doesn't look nice, but to say I don't do decent work is ridiculous. There is no other way to do my job. It is out of necessity that I run cor-line as it's all I'm given. After seeing that electricians down south have days to do the job where I get hours makes me wish I was down there haha.


I wasn't intending it to be a shot at your workmanship... More so the product.. To compare PVC to cor-line is not fair.. The each have their purpose and different methods of installation...

IMO rigid conduit was an art to install and make it look good.. Teck cable has lost that art.. Some cable jobs can look good, while some look like a rat's nest... Tray cable is doing the same thing to teck cable, and I haven't seen one decent installation of tray cable yet (but I'm in a small piece of the electrical puzzle)..

Sorry if it came across as a knock on your work...It wasn't intended...


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

480sparky said:


> This. All day long, every day.
> 
> The worst case I've ever experienced is I got a call for a restaurant build from the GC on a Wednesday, "Hey, just letting you know, we're pouring the slab next Wednesday. So if there's anything you need to get in there, you'd better get on it!"
> 
> ...


Been there more than once.......

I've installed PVC in slabs less than 10' from the mud being poured. 

If murder was legal I bet this wouldn't happen.


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## adroga (Mar 3, 2011)

glen1971 said:


> I wasn't intending it to be a shot at your workmanship... More so the product.. To compare PVC to cor-line is not fair.. The each have their purpose and different methods of installation...
> 
> IMO rigid conduit was an art to install and make it look good.. Teck cable has lost that art.. Some cable jobs can look good, while some look like a rat's nest... Tray cable is doing the same thing to teck cable, and I haven't seen one decent installation of tray cable yet (but I'm in a small piece of the electrical puzzle)..
> 
> Sorry if it came across as a knock on your work...It wasn't intended...


I agree..

My first JW was an old school perfectionist who treated the trade like a work of art.

The more I work with cheap contractors who have no pride in their work the more I appreciate everything he taught me.

It's kind of a slippery slope downhill when we fight to be the lowest bidder.

For example,

I have 2 friends who recently started their own business. The first one told me he prices a basic 40x25 bungalow to minimum code, 1 light per room, unfinished basement,etc at 8500$ and it takes him about 40 hrs to finish.

My second friend laughed and said he could do it for 6500.. We should be standing firm and raising our prices, not living paycheck to paycheck.


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## Acadian9 (Jun 6, 2009)

piperunner said:


> Nice job at least you put up your work bro i don't see anyone else putting it up . Now post some stuff of you gear rooms when you get done and ill share mind with ya when i get mine done .


I actually have a mechanical room AND an electrical room coming up. I can probably have some pics up later this month (if I remember.) Weather is pretty bad this week (rain) so it's going to set us back a few days.


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

Acadian9 said:


> I actually have a mechanical room AND an electrical room coming up. I can probably have some pics up later this month (if I remember.) Weather is pretty bad this week (rain) so it's going to set us back a few days.


Well we will be looking forward to it there Acadian 
It will be a year before i start gear so its all pipe work for some time .


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## prh44 (Dec 24, 2011)

Acadian9 said:


> I know what it feels like to be under pressure. No-one on the slab respects our trade.


 The structural engineers in my area of the Midwest will not allow embedded conduits that close to each other. We need to have 3 times the diameter of the raceway between embedded raceways. Really limits your work in the slab. 
For the last ten years we have had concrete nearly poured in our boots as we rough.
Wood decks not fastened in place and rebar hitting it. Its nuts any more, and every time we meet an impossible schedule we are expected to do the next one faster


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## Shane B (Feb 24, 2013)

Mister Sparkle said:


> Am I wrong, or does it seem like we electricians always get screwed when the job fall behind schedule.
> Our window to install becomes smaller because of the pressure to pour concrete.
> Have many of you experienced such problems? If you have, what have you done to rectify the situation? If everything is smooth, is it a result of good scheduling from the general contractor?


 
We get this on just about every job we do coming out of the ground, and most of the time it's the same GC. You would think working with the same crew you would eventually get a system down, but doesn't seem to happen with these guys.


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## walkerj (May 13, 2007)

Shane B said:


> We get this on just about every job we do coming out of the ground, and most of the time it's the same GC. You would think working with the same crew you would eventually get a system down, but doesn't seem to happen with these guys.


Well at the precon meeting you tell them I need x days after the slab is ready for me or I am getting fed. No dinner no lipstick just plain fed.


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## Shane B (Feb 24, 2013)

walkerj said:


> Well at the precon meeting you tell them I need x days after the slab is ready for me or I am getting fed. No dinner no lipstick just plain fed.


We do, but there's always delays in getting the slab ready and then the pressure gets put on our shoulders to get our stuff in asap.


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