# testing some loads in my house...



## zwodubber (Feb 24, 2011)

It's the time of year where we need no heating/cooling units running so I figured I'd take some measurements and see what I can do to save some money.

Brief description of the house:

I rent it.
2 floors - and basement. Basement is unfinished and used for laundry only. First floor is kitchen, living room, bedroom, office and bathroom. Second floor is the length of the first floor but is used as a bedroom/office by my room mate.

Cooling loads:

3 window units keep it cool.

Heating loads:

7 electric baseboard heaters throughout the house.


The electric bills in the summer are fine, it's the winter bills that are crazy. I know there is really nothing to reduce consumption with resistive loads but I am going to be testing different methods of saving on the bill. Last year we had new double pane windows installed which helped. As I was doing some home improvement I noticed that none of the walls have insulation in them... I need to talk to the landlord about getting something done. 

I plan on this being an ongoing thread as I try different types of IR heaters, insulation, etc... so I can use less baseboard heat.

So for now here are some readings which I am sure are not new to anyone but maybe this thread can help get some suggestions together to help everyone save some cash this winter.

Top shows PF and bottom is KW.



Here is a baseline picture of the house with the basics on. (2 TV's, refrig, cable boxes, some lights...)












The following are all starting from the baseline picture. Turned heaters on and took a pic then turned heaters off. Turned AC units on took a pic then turned units off etc...


Here is a pic with 3 baseboard heaters on the main floor.












A picture of 2 AC window units on.












The above pictures show an example of constant seasonal loads minus 5 baseboard heaters. 


Also threw on the dryer as a random test. I'm not worried about this as it is not a constant load, I was just curious.


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## AnthonyClifton (Sep 14, 2011)

I doubt your landlord is concerned about your electric bill. That looks like a new load center.


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## zwodubber (Feb 24, 2011)

AnthonyClifton said:


> I doubt your landlord is concerned about your electric bill. That looks like a new load center.


She is a good friend and did replace all the windows last year to up the home value and try to save us some money. She also takes money off for any upgrades I do and she pays for materials. She will work with us...

Here is a saved pic of the main panel


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## zwodubber (Feb 24, 2011)

Just for the heck of it I threw all 7 baseboards on and snapped a pic, I think 1 is broken.


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## AnthonyClifton (Sep 14, 2011)

Siemens is a good panel, but you could have done neater work there.


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## zwodubber (Feb 24, 2011)

AnthonyClifton said:


> Siemens is a good panel, but you could have done neater work there.


I didn't put the panel in, it was there when I moved in


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

zwodubber said:


> Just for the heck of it I threw all 7 baseboards on and snapped a pic, I think 1 is broken.



That meter does it always show the PF?

Or is that a mode that it can be set for?


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## zwodubber (Feb 24, 2011)

HARRY304E said:


> That meter does it always show the PF?
> 
> Or is that a mode that it can be set for?


In KW/KVA mode it can display HP, PF, KVA, KVAR along with KW or I and V.


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## stuiec (Sep 25, 2010)

OK. Truth now. You just got your new meter and couldn't wait to try it out all over the house, am I right?


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## zwodubber (Feb 24, 2011)

stuiec said:


> OK. Truth now. You just got your new meter and couldn't wait to try it out all over the house, am I right?



:laughing: I had no use for it at work this week so I had to use it somewhere :thumbsup:

But I really do plan on trying out some ways to save $$$ this winter so I will be continuing to try new things.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

zwodubber said:


> :laughing: I had no use for it at work this week so I had to use it somewhere :thumbsup:
> 
> But I really do plan on trying out some ways to save $$$ this winter so I will be continuing to try new things.



:laughing:


What's the model # for that meter.?


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## stuiec (Sep 25, 2010)

zwodubber said:


> :laughing: I had no use for it at work this week so I had to use it somewhere :thumbsup:
> 
> But I really do plan on trying out some ways to save $$$ this winter so I will be continuing to try new things.


 
Cool:laughing:. Are you happy with it so far? Would you buy it again?


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## That's It? (Aug 31, 2011)

zwodubber said:


> I plan on this being an ongoing thread as I try different types of IR heaters, insulation, etc... so I can use less baseboard heat.


 Stud out the basement walls and insulate them. You actually lose more heat through your foundation than you do from first floor to basement.


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## AnthonyClifton (Sep 14, 2011)

That's It? said:


> Stud out the basement walls and insulate them. You actually lose more heat through your foundation than you do from first floor to basement.


 

An inexpensive alternative would be for him to blow in insulation in the walls. Patching drywall is easy.


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## That's It? (Aug 31, 2011)

AnthonyClifton said:


> An inexpensive alternative would be for him to blow in insulation in the walls. Patching drywall is easy.


 But for the love of everything holy don't do blown insulation in the attic. You'll want to slap yourself if you ever have to crawl through it


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## AnthonyClifton (Sep 14, 2011)

That's It? said:


> But for the love of everything holy don't do blown insulation in the attic. You'll want to slap yourself if you ever have to crawl through it


 
Whoever invented cellulose insulation should be sodomized in the rear end.


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

If she is willing to pay for it..the easy way to insulate the basement is with the blanket type masonary insulation. Tyvek backing 6ft long nailed to sil-plate then use hilty on bottom edge. Super easy to install, have it in my basement upsate NY and it is never below 65!!! with the heat vents closed.


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## zwodubber (Feb 24, 2011)

HARRY304E said:


> :laughing:
> 
> 
> What's the model # for that meter.?



380976




stuiec said:


> Cool:laughing:. Are you happy with it so far? Would you buy it again?


So far I am happy with it although i have had limited use with it. I should be out doing some 3 phase tests this week with our dranetz and I will have this along to test out.


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## zwodubber (Feb 24, 2011)

AnthonyClifton said:


> An inexpensive alternative would be for him to blow in insulation in the walls. Patching drywall is easy.


This was going to be my first suggestion, but only for the walls. The attic actually has normal insulation.


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## jefft110 (Jul 7, 2010)

I had that same meter. It was pretty cool, and accurate other than the pf #'s seemed off or a little high; VxAxPF didn't always = w.

It may have needed calibrating, or it could have been user error.


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## retiredsparktech (Mar 8, 2011)

zwodubber said:


> She is a good friend and did replace all the windows last year to up the home value and try to save us some money. She also takes money off for any upgrades I do and she pays for materials. She will work with us...
> 
> Here is a saved pic of the main panel


Isn't there any natural gas in the building? Every one knows, electricity is the most expensive way of heating a larger space in the colder climates.


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

Move.


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## JohnR (Apr 12, 2010)

What do you call normal insulation in an attic? R-19, 25, 30, 40? If I remember correctly, around here, we need a minimum of 30 in the attic.

If there is no insulation in the walls, blown in definitely is the cheapest option at this point. Watch for K+T though.
I have no documentation for it, but "they" say that the oil filled baseboards are 2-3 times more efficient, at 3 times the initial cost.

edit: Oh, yeah, a couple cans of spray foam will go a LONG ways towards sealing air leaks. Look in the basement or other areas for spider webs. They build webs where there is air movement, you will likely find an air leak nearby. I have found in houses I lived in where the sill plate separated from the foundation and there was about a 1/2" by 16" gap in one case.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

bobelectric said:


> Move.


I was thinking the same thing. The best way to save money is to move into a more modern home that has good insulation, a better heat system, and thermal efficient windows.


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## zwodubber (Feb 24, 2011)

Unfortunately moving is not an option right now... 

I'm going to see what can be done with what I have, like I said she should pay for materials. There IS an oil system in the house but it has not been used in 3-4 years. I moved in 2 years ago. I'm going to see what needs to be done to get it ready.


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## retiredsparktech (Mar 8, 2011)

zwodubber said:


> Unfortunately moving is not an option right now...
> 
> I'm going to see what can be done with what I have, like I said she should pay for materials. There IS an oil system in the house but it has not been used in 3-4 years. I moved in 2 years ago. I'm going to see what needs to be done to get it ready.


I think the owner is going about improvements in the wrong way. If I was looking at that home, I would ask why baseboard heaters were installed instead of replacing the marginal heating unit. Also a unheated basement seems to make the rest of the home more difficult to heat.


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## zwodubber (Feb 24, 2011)

retiredsparktech said:


> I think the owner is going about improvements in the wrong way. If I was looking at that home, I would ask why baseboard heaters were installed instead of replacing the marginal heating unit. Also a unheated basement seems to make the rest of the home more difficult to heat.


Tomorrow I plan on calling her to find out why the baseboards were installed, and the condition of the oil system.

Will update the thread when I know. I'll head down and snap some quick pics of what I have...


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## zwodubber (Feb 24, 2011)

OK, here is what is going on in the basement "boiler room" side.





















Close up






















Tank


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## zwodubber (Feb 24, 2011)

Each room has a baseboard and oil heat return.

Electric











oil


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## CADPoint (Jul 5, 2007)

Seems you can do the greater structural additions first than worring about anything electrical. JMO

Intermatic timer(s) you can add that to at least (I assume you) have an electric water heater. 
There are three pair of timers that you could set accordingly to you water usage.
I would put a thermal wrap insulation blanket around the H2O tank!


With all that said you might stress some exposed water piping in a non-barrier basement!

I would also consider the same things on some of your room heaters.
Disable some during the night and fire up before you awake or return and then shout down.
You could also do the same with rated thermostat's that are on a 24 timer but since your so way north...

Again there's a lot of other things in front of electrical.


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*Boiler*

That looks like a real efficient boiler. I bet it's 99% or so


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Cletis said:


> That looks like a real efficient boiler. I bet it's 99% or so


 
No it is not that high a effecient boiler and with OP's boiler he posted that is a older unit I belive they are only about 70% effecient to get new boiler they have to be at least 80% effecient rating or higher I have simauir boiler in my shop back in Wisconsin and it run 82% effecient anything higher will be condersating type boiler { they work very well with gaz verison but with diesel fuel ( fuel oil or heating fuel ) it kinda ok with low sulfer level unless you burn on ULSD { on hiway diesel fuel }

That will result better effecienty and I do not know if the OP's place can be qualifed to have a conversion to Natural gaz boiler the cost will be somehow cheaper I know in nordest { north east } area pretty good percentage of homes use heating oil / diesel fuel for heating purpose but they can switch over to natural gaz which I know it is on going trend.

I have one gaz compaine asked me to converted to natural gaz at first I was instering about it until they came up the cost for bury a new gaz lateral for my home / shop and I nixed due I have pretty new furance in the house and shop have good boiler in there allready so I not going to spend over 5 K euros for this changeover and save my bill between the two fuel choice. 

I have ran the figures between gaz et oil and it will save me about 12% but for ROI { return of investment } will take super long time so that one reason why I nixed it.

Sorry for long writing but this what I dealt from time to time with heating fuel and I am sure Roadhouse will be happy to give you a answer about the boiler rating.

Oh yeah the last thing Wisconsin Fuel code for HVAC requirement if you have oil fired boiler like in the photo we can not use the baromatic damper on the tee fitting like in the photo it have be lower { 18 inch from boiler vent } 

Merci,
Marc


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

- expand the oil heat with more zones of oil heat, use electric heat only for emergency
- find out where the heat loss is and repair (insulation, doors, windows)
- wear warmer clothes


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

As a landlord I would be happy that you are interested in the condition of my property. I have been in that business for 20 yrs. On the other hand she has a budget like you have for running ur business, ask her how much she can budget and then get the most bang for ur buck. Heating sys is deperciated write off over several yrs. but may cost big $$$$ sayin, and apayin is 2 different things. good luck and buy ur own place 4%morts, I am doing 2 refi,s right now!!


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## JmanAllen (Aug 3, 2011)

Pull the ACs out of the windows for the winter or wrap them. Alot of air majesty's way thru there

Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


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## zwodubber (Feb 24, 2011)

Upon further investigation of the oil burner :001_huh:


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## zwodubber (Feb 24, 2011)

JmanAllen said:


> Pull the ACs out of the windows for the winter or wrap them. Alot of air majesty's way thru there
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


AC's always come out.


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## zwodubber (Feb 24, 2011)

RGH said:


> As a landlord I would be happy that you are interested in the condition of my property. I have been in that business for 20 yrs. On the other hand she has a budget like you have for running ur business, ask her how much she can budget and then get the most bang for ur buck. Heating sys is deperciated write off over several yrs. but may cost big $$$$ sayin, and apayin is 2 different things. good luck and buy ur own place 4%morts, I am doing 2 refi,s right now!!


I hear ya and totally agree. I should rephrase the materials part. If it is something she wants done I do it on the weekends and she provides materials and discounts rent. If it's something I want to do for aesthetics we usually strike a deal, although I have done some things on my dime with her approval.

She did put new double pane windows in as opposed to the single aluminum ones that were here when I moved in, 19 total.

I am going to focus on air leaks etc, before pursuing the oil heater seeing the condition it is in. I will be checking for obvious culprits throughout the house and hit the basement with spray foam where necessary. Once it gets cool enough outside I will break out the thermal imager and go to town. :thumbsup:

Thanks to everyone for all the advice so far, please keep it coming.


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## zwodubber (Feb 24, 2011)

Sorry if this is going off the electrical side of things but maybe this could help others...

Mods feel free to let me know.

One more thing, this is the living room fireplace. Are there any ways to make this more efficient without an enclosed unit? It seems the heat just flies right out. The bricks get warm but not nearly enough to retain heat long enough.












Directly behind the fireplace is a wood closet, I know this needs to be sealed up as the wall on the left is an exterior wall...

It will be full of wood this year after insulating in some way :thumbsup:


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

AnthonyClifton said:


> Whoever invented cellulose insulation should be sodomized in the rear end.


Where else do you think ****** occurs? :001_huh::blink:


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

TOOL_5150 said:


> Where else do you think ****** occurs? :001_huh::blink:


Allright, that did it, its time to kill this thread....


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## JmanAllen (Aug 3, 2011)

zwodubber said:


> Sorry if this is going off the electrical side of things but maybe this could help others...
> 
> Mods feel free to let me know.
> 
> ...


Fire places will heat up the room they are in but they actually suck heat out of other rooms

Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


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## jefft110 (Jul 7, 2010)

macmikeman said:


> Allright, that did it, its time to kill this thread....


Why do they even have a weather forecast in Hawaii?


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## Mr. Sparkle (Jan 27, 2009)

jefft110 said:


> Why do they even have a weather forecast in Hawaii?


They don't that is their state flag.


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## That's It? (Aug 31, 2011)

zwodubber said:


> Directly behind the fireplace is a wood closet, I know this needs to be sealed up as the wall on the left is an exterior wall...
> 
> It will be full of wood this year after insulating in some way


 If you're going to fill it with wood, why are you going to insulate?

And mac enough with the hawaiian weather report we are coming up on winter here soon. You are making me hate my state.


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## zwodubber (Feb 24, 2011)

That's It? said:


> If you're going to fill it with wood, why are you going to insulate?


When you open the closet door that room feels like whatever the temperature is outside...


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

Oil heat, hot water baseboard units. You can't really do a cheap fix with no duct work.I've been busy changing those over to electric heat pump systems... Hot air systems.


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## retiredsparktech (Mar 8, 2011)

bobelectric said:


> Oil heat, hot water baseboard units. You can't really do a cheap fix with no duct work.I've been busy changing those over to electric heat pump systems... Hot air systems.


It's my understanding that heat pumps don't work that well in these northern states. I know that they have back up resistance elements, but our cold spells are a lot longer than the southern states. All we can do is hope for a milder winter.


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