# I need advice



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

<highvoltage> said:


> I am a 4th year 309A (construction & maintenance) electrician apprentice in Ontario. I was indentured at the first company I worked for but the following 2 companies after that never transfered my contract because there ratio was off. Apparently now my Apprenticeship is "cancelled" but I am working at a union company and as far as they know im signed up as a apprentice. This is the most money I ever made and I cant afford to not have work right now. My employer has received a 10 000 dollar fine for having apprentices not signed up before, so now Im stuck because I cant go to school untill im signed up. Any advice or information would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> Adam


You need to go get signed up before you get screwed.


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## Cujo (Feb 4, 2012)

<highvoltage> said:


> I am a 4th year 309A (construction & maintenance) electrician apprentice in Ontario. I was indentured at the first company I worked for but the following 2 companies after that never transfered my contract because there ratio was off. Apparently now my Apprenticeship is "cancelled" but I am working at a union company and as far as they know im signed up as a apprentice. This is the most money I ever made and I cant afford to not have work right now. My employer has received a 10 000 dollar fine for having apprentices not signed up before, so now Im stuck because I cant go to school untill im signed up. Any advice or information would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> Adam


Get out of ontario. I had the same problem working there and I can you aren't the only other person I have heard the story from. Find out what you need from the apprenticeship board there and see if you can get them what you need. If not you are SOL. I knew a guy in a similar situation as you, he didn't want to do his hours again and just gave up being an electrician.

I'll edit to add that I'm pretty sure if your company didn't adhere to the proper ratio your hours don't count. I moved away from ontario about 5 years ago so things may have hanged.


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## wcord (Jan 23, 2011)

<highvoltage> said:


> I am a 4th year 309A (construction & maintenance) electrician apprentice in Ontario. I was indentured at the first company I worked for but the following 2 companies after that never transfered my contract because there ratio was off. Apparently now my Apprenticeship is "cancelled" but I am working at a union company and as far as they know im signed up as a apprentice. This is the most money I ever made and I cant afford to not have work right now. My employer has received a 10 000 dollar fine for having apprentices not signed up before, so now Im stuck because I cant go to school untill im signed up. Any advice or information would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> Adam


This situation has happened in Manitoba too.
Not sure what you can do, except plead with the Apprenticeship board. It must have been awhile since you went to school, for them to cancel, or was it cancelled because you were not transferred properly ?
How many hours you do stand to lose? 
Doesn't your local look after your book etc? That may be your ticket out of this mess.
Sorry to hear about this. This sort of thing pisses me off. As a business owner, who is a JM, I make sure my apprentices get the experience and try to keep their records straight. I could make more money if I ignored the ratio, but maybe I'm old school. 
Good luck


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## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

Cujo said:


> Get out of ontario. I had the same problem working there and I can you aren't the only other person I have heard the story from. Find out what you need from the apprenticeship board there and see if you can get them what you need. If not you are SOL. I knew a guy in a similar situation as you, he didn't want to do his hours again and just gave up being an electrician.
> 
> I'll edit to add that I'm pretty sure if your company didn't adhere to the proper ratio your hours don't count. I moved away from ontario about 5 years ago so things may have hanged.


Things haven't changed, Ontario still has major ratio issues and nobody in the Ministry of Training wants to change that. I have met and known tons of guys who have had to work under the radar just to get some experience and beg for registration. Even I was one of those guys till I finally did get legitimately registered - my boss at the time actually lied to the Ministry of Training about the number of journeymen in the company. It was wrong but in a sh*tty situation I had to just let it slide till I could leave that company. Fortunately all my hours were logged. I'm glad I left Ontario too, the opportunities I've had in 3 weeks of being in Alberta already are way more than what I had in almost 3 _*years* _of fighting it out in Ontario.

Let's be honest, you live in St. Catharines. I grew up there. Growth in the whole of Niagara is kind of limited, and it's mostly a retiree population that has had a major decline in industrial activity over the last 20 years. If somehow you have a falling out with your current company you probably will be hung out to dry, and you need school to get your ticket.


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## <highvoltage> (Mar 4, 2010)

Vintage Sounds said:


> Things haven't changed, Ontario still has major ratio issues and nobody in the Ministry of Training wants to change that. I have met and known tons of guys who have had to work under the radar just to get some experience and beg for registration. Even I was one of those guys till I finally did get legitimately registered - my boss at the time actually lied to the Ministry of Training about the number of journeymen in the company. It was wrong but in a sh*tty situation I had to just let it slide till I could leave that company. Fortunately all my hours were logged. I'm glad I left Ontario too, the opportunities I've had in 3 weeks of being in Alberta already are way more than what I had in almost 3 _*years* _of fighting it out in Ontario.
> 
> Let's be honest, you live in St. Catharines. I grew up there. Growth in the whole of Niagara is kind of limited, and it's mostly a retiree population that has had a major decline in industrial activity over the last 20 years. If somehow you have a falling out with your current company you probably will be hung out to dry, and you need school to get your ticket.


Great... so im pretty much screwed? I have only 1900 hours logged on my contract but i have completed 6500 hours and have recieved letters from the employers stating how many hours I have completed with there signature and contact, is that not enough to convince the ministry to credit me for thoughs hours towards my apprenticeship? or do they look at it as since i was not registered at the time it doesnt count? ughhhh so ****ty........ if I were to move to alberta and work would I have to just start all over? and is it easier to get signed up there?


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## Cujo (Feb 4, 2012)

<highvoltage> said:


> Great... so im pretty much screwed? I have only 1900 hours logged on my contract but i have completed 6500 hours and have recieved letters from the employers stating how many hours I have completed with there signature and contact, is that not enough to convince the ministry to credit me for thoughs hours towards my apprenticeship? or do they look at it as since i was not registered at the time it doesnt count? ughhhh so ****ty........ if I were to move to alberta and work would I have to just start all over? and is it easier to get signed up there?


if you were indentured AIT in alberta would probably credit you for your time. In alberta companies can also sign off your work experience when you register as an apprentice here.

I think the only way to know for sure is call the ministry and see what they can do for you. From my experience, and the experience of others that I know on this forum and from back home, it might be a pain in the ass. Since you are working union, you may be able to work something out with them. Was it a union contractor breaking the rules?


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## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

Well, if you have actual proof that you worked those hours, I believe all your new employer has to do is sign off on them. So, you phone up the local branch of the ministry of training, saying you're an apprentice who wants to be registered. They will send an apprenticeship counselor out to meet you and your employer. In that meeting your boss can agree to sign off on the hours you worked elsewhere. Then, a new apprenticeship contract gets signed(since your previous contract expired). When you call up and speak to the apprenticeship counselor(not just the phone-answering lady) explain your situation to him/her. You probably will be fine. I would discuss this with your boss first and let him know that you need to get registered and that a MTCU person will be coming in to do that. Get him to agree to sign off beforehand. If he is treating you like a 4th year then he shouldn't have a problem doing that. It's no skin off his nose. 

What about the union though? Local 303 isn't it? I wonder what involvement they will have. In Toronto(353) they handle the entire apprenticeship themselves but the other, smaller locals don't....as far as I know(which is not a lot, so don't take that as gospel). 

Here in AB companies are dying for guys. My company is even recruiting people with *zero* experience. The rate at my company and a few others is about $36 for a journeyman and first years get 50%, and 10% increase every time you complete trade school. Some are $38 for J man.


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## <highvoltage> (Mar 4, 2010)

Vintage Sounds said:


> Well, if you have actual proof that you worked those hours, I believe all your new employer has to do is sign off on them. So, you phone up the local branch of the ministry of training, saying you're an apprentice who wants to be registered. They will send an apprenticeship counselor out to meet you and your employer. In that meeting your boss can agree to sign off on the hours you worked elsewhere. Then, a new apprenticeship contract gets signed(since your previous contract expired). When you call up and speak to the apprenticeship counselor(not just the phone-answering lady) explain your situation to him/her. You probably will be fine. I would discuss this with your boss first and let him know that you need to get registered and that a MTCU person will be coming in to do that. Get him to agree to sign off beforehand. If he is treating you like a 4th year then he shouldn't have a problem doing that. It's no skin off his nose.
> 
> What about the union though? Local 303 isn't it? I wonder what involvement they will have. In Toronto(353) they handle the entire apprenticeship themselves but the other, smaller locals don't....as far as I know(which is not a lot, so don't take that as gospel).
> 
> Here in AB companies are dying for guys. My company is even recruiting people with *zero* experience. The rate at my company and a few others is about $36 for a journeyman and first years get 50%, and 10% increase every time you complete trade school. Some are $38 for J man.



Thanks for the advice, its actually clac union, the journeymen rate at my company based out of Kitchener is 36 a hour I'm a 4th year with no schooling getting paid 24 a hour plus benefits and 10% vacation pay. I heard in Alberta cost of living is soaring, and every electrical contractor seems to want you to have hs2s training and exp in oil sands well Atleast the good jobs. I've just been doing grocery stores.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Seems it boils down to what's important to you HV, your current _'job'_, or your contining _'apprenticeship'_

as you've informed us here, they don't exactly go hand/hand....

~CS~


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## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

<highvoltage> said:


> Thanks for the advice, its actually clac union, the journeymen rate at my company based out of Kitchener is 36 a hour I'm a 4th year with no schooling getting paid 24 a hour plus benefits and 10% vacation pay. I heard in Alberta cost of living is soaring, and every electrical contractor seems to want you to have hs2s training and exp in oil sands well Atleast the good jobs. I've just been doing grocery stores.


That's cool, I've heard of the CLAC but know nothing about them. I didn't think they were active in Niagara. The pay and work seems good though.

Cost of living in Calgary is definitely going to be higher than Niagara but for me, coming from Toronto anything is cheaper. Besides it depends where in the city you choose to live anyway. Other places in Alberta are probably less. I noticed some items in grocery stores are a touch more expensive though. 

As for the H2S and oil sands experience, I think you'd be surprised. Tons of guys come here from out of province with zero oil industry experience. I can't speak for everybody but my company is willing to pay to train people if they are interested in going to the oil patch. I haven't been there more than 3 weeks and already I have gotten a pile of free safety gear from them and a new Oil Sands Safety Association Fall Arrest ticket. If I needed H2S Alive they would get me that too. Anyway, not all of the work is oil sands related either. There are a lot of highrises going up, infrastructure being built out, new retail, etc.


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## Tsmil (Jul 17, 2011)

Contact your rep from the ministry and take them all your documents. Until you contact them you are only guessing, 
When I started my apprenticeship, my rep told me that it was my responsibility to ensure I was properly signed up with each employer. If the employer is not signing you up because of ratios, it sounds like he is only trying to get cheap labour. His way of cutting cost to give him an edge when bidding for work. All ECs in Ontario have the same ratio rules and that does help keep pricing competitive.


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