# Permit pulling for 3rd party work



## SC electrical (Jul 25, 2012)

Had someone ask me if I could pull an electrical permit fon a remodel job that was done completely behind the scenes. Remodel is complete. Person cannot for some reason get a meter put in by the utility company without city inspection. Can't get city inspection without permit. Can't get permit without licensed electrician. Can't get licensed electrician.......basically screwed. I want to be able to offer a solution but the only one I can come up with is to rewire everything. 3 decker apt building. Like I said....kinda screwed. 

Any input would good to hear out. I don't want anything to do with it, but i like to be able to offer advice just for local business purposes


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

A blank check is a good starting point.


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## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

SC electrical said:


> Had someone ask me if I could pull an electrical permit fon a remodel job that was done completely behind the scenes. Remodel is complete. Person cannot for some reason get a meter put in by the utility company without city inspection. Can't get city inspection without permit. Can't get permit without licensed electrician. Can't get licensed electrician.......basically screwed. I want to be able to offer a solution but the only one I can come up with is to rewire everything. 3 decker apt building. Like I said....kinda screwed.
> 
> Any input would good to hear out. I don't want anything to do with it, but i like to be able to offer advice just for local business purposes


Good to the system actually works from time to time... If you don't want anything to do with it, and are not willing to put your name (or your crews name) on it, walk away. I think that is AWESOME advice for local business purposes,


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## mdfriday (May 14, 2007)

I would not just get a permit....maybe some inspection is in order. Make sure you charge like a consultant, not an electrician. Make sure you document your findings.

Get paid a good amount before you start.


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## 007 (May 4, 2009)

what kind of inspection can be required at this point?


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

SC electrical said:


> Had someone ask me if I could pull an electrical permit fon a remodel job that was done completely behind the scenes. Remodel is complete. Person cannot for some reason get a meter put in by the utility company without city inspection. Can't get city inspection without permit. Can't get permit without licensed electrician. Can't get licensed electrician.......basically screwed. I want to be able to offer a solution but the only one I can come up with is to rewire everything. 3 decker apt building. Like I said....kinda screwed.
> 
> Any input would good to hear out. I don't want anything to do with it, but i like to be able to offer advice just for local business purposes



http://www.mass.gov/ocabr/governmen...-sheets/electricians-consumer-fact-sheet.html
*Special Note*

It is a violation of board regulations for a licensed electrician or systems technician to connect wiring from components that have been wired by an unlicensed person.


http://www.mass.gov/ocabr/licensee/dpl-boards/el/regulations/rules-and-regs/237-cmr-1800.html


http://www.mass.gov/ocabr/licensee/dpl-boards/el/regulations/rules-and-regs/


Also read the back of your license.


" This license is subject to the provisions of the general laws as amended,It is a personal privilege,And must *NOT* be loaned or assigned to any other person."

So that means either you or your Employees did the wiring NOT an unlicensed person.


"Anyone who violates these rules Shall be sent to IRAN to be Purified with PAIN and Executed by the choice of the Executioner"...:laughing:

Welcome to the forum...:thumbup:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

007 said:


> what kind of inspection can be required at this point?


Everything that was done or the power company will not give them a meter.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

In a single word: DON'T.

YOU would be taking on all the legal liability for the job.


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## T-Bart (Jun 24, 2011)

Talk to your insurance agent about an E&O policy. Then meg every branch ckt and stick a camera in every wall and charge accordingly.


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## SC electrical (Jul 25, 2012)

Yeah this has **** show written all over it. Unfortunately I was unable to do anything simply because its not worth it to me. Thanks everyone for the replies. Person tries to save money by not consulting an electrician at the beginning, than in the end needs one to come bail them out.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

So are you going to bail them out?

If you are thinking about it, you might want to "chat" with the AHJ before you finalize your decision.


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## SC electrical (Jul 25, 2012)

No I am not


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## RMatthis (Nov 9, 2009)

I say don't do it. Is it worth losing everything you have for a cheep hack wannabe? move on. The guy will probably never call you again since he does his own electric anyway.


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## Flytyingyaker (Jun 9, 2011)

Don't do it. They broke the rules they should pay the price.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

I would charge for a thorough inspection of the premises including some spot cut outs to check inside walls. Check every box, splice, device , location, and then and only then would I write up an estimate on what it will take to cover and repair /remove/add to anyone elses work before it would end up on my permit and license.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Here, we have an amnesty program where the owner can have an inspection and a final.
For one thing, the rough inspection is like any other rough, where all of the concealed wiring has to be available for he inspector. Basically, opening the drywall and all of device boxes.

We came up with this to resolve the problems that were created after hurricane Andrew some 20 years ago. We suspect that more than 100,000 homes and businesses have problems that will present themselves when the properties change hands. 
This works on projects like the OP came accross but someone would for sure hang for aiding an unlicensed contractor.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

hardworkingstiff said:


> So are you going to bail them out?
> 
> If you are thinking about it, you might want to "chat" with the AHJ before you finalize your decision.


I agree Lou. Ive done many of these and most counties have a buried work procedure. If you talk to the ahj, you may be able to help them out without taki g liability. I'll a documented procedure from one of the counrirs i work in as soon as i get to my computer


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## Amish Electrician (Jan 2, 2010)

Let's put it in perspective ....

The customer 'went cheap' and did a DIY where he needed, where the rules required, that the work be done by someone with a license. He got caught.

Let's look at that again: The customer went out of his way to try to keep you from getting the work you were rightly entitled to. He tried to steal from you.

And now he expects you to help him complete the theft? He tried to screw you, got caught, and now wants you to provide the vaseline?

Come into my parlor, said the spider to the fly ....

He deserves some 'street justice.' That is, he deserves to pay you to remove his kludge and then pay you to make sure it's done right. This is in addition to whatever he paid the handyman. Think of it as a 'fine.'

He didn't know? Yea, right ... what part of disconnecting the power did he think was a proper job for some handyman?


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## Corn_Fed (Aug 6, 2012)

rnr electric said:


> If you don't want anything to do with it, and are not willing to put your name (or your crews name) on it, walk away.,


 
I couldnt agree more :thumbsup: As you mentioned before, just short of you rewiring the whole thing there is not much you can do....... and as we all know "YOU NEVER KNOW WHAT IS BEHIND WALL #2"


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## Corn_Fed (Aug 6, 2012)

amish electrician said:


> let's put it in perspective ....
> 
> The customer 'went cheap' and did a diy where he needed, where the rules required, that the work be done by someone with a license. He got caught.
> 
> ...


 
well said.... Well played good sir well played.......


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

don't walk......RUN....


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

View attachment Insp of Concealed Work 2-1-11 (1).pdf


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## kbsparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Simple procedure:

REMOVE everything they installed, and then start from scratch and install it all over again.

Problem solved.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

So: If the HO tried to have the job done by someone without a license and gets caught, they should be punished by............?

All licensed electricians should shun them? Then how do they get the work completed legally? Does this 'teach them a lesson'?


And how does hiring an unlicensed person equate to 'stealing' our work? Since when does it belong to 'us' in the first place?



The best course of action: Don't just get a permit and slam the job done. Take every joint apart, meg every piece of cable. Inspect every inch of the existing work you can lay eyes on. If anything is not up to par, take whatever action is necessary to correct it. In the end, you'll have a job done to Code minimum and your own standards. That, and price the job accordingly.


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## Amish Electrician (Jan 2, 2010)

"And how does hiring an unlicensed person equate to 'stealing' our work? Since when does it belong to 'us' in the first place?"

It belongs to us, because the law says it does. If the law requires the work to be done with a permit, and by someone with a license, then hiring a trunk-slammer to work after hours and avoiding city hall for the permit are both violations of those laws.

Violations of the law are, by definition, crimes. Now, it can be a matter of semantics whether the crime is a 'theft' or a 'fraud' or an 'embezzlement,' or whatever. It's still a crime.

While it's clear the guy tried to avoid paying fees to a specific town -meaning the town can rightly say they were harmed - the perspective of the individual tradesman is slightly different.

The tradesman cannot say he was personally harmed, as there is no requirement that he be hired. Yet, there is a requirement that his trade be hired, so the trade as a whole has been harmed.

Shun him? Sorry, but I don't enable crooks if I can help it. I don't want him to be able to 'get it done.' Instead, I want the customer to follow the same rules as everyone else.

Sometimes you can show mercy, and sometimes it's foolish to do so. Just as there might be reasons to be sympathetic and give someone a 'break,' there can be reasons to go out of your way to inflict additional pain.

It's like when you dealt with a school-yard bully. You didn't stop when you knocked him down; you wanted to make sure the lesson 'stuck' and he was never tempted to pick on you again.

That's why this customer gets no slack from me.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Amish Electrician said:


> "And how does hiring an unlicensed person equate to 'stealing' our work? Since when does it belong to 'us' in the first place?"
> 
> It belongs to us, because the law says it does. If the law requires the work to be done with a permit, and by someone with a license, then hiring a trunk-slammer to work after hours and avoiding city hall for the permit are both violations of those laws.........


So what about the HO doing the work themselves? Is it still 'your' work?



Amish Electrician said:


> .........That's why this customer gets no slack from me.


So, what is YOUR SOLUTION to the issue at hand, then?


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

SC electrical said:


> Yeah this has **** show written all over it. Unfortunately I was unable to do anything simply because its not worth it to me. Thanks everyone for the replies. Person tries to save money by not consulting an electrician at the beginning, than in the end needs one to come bail them out.


See I think it was a foolish business decision. Ultimately the responsible party saved on hiring an electrical contractor. You could have made a respectable amount of money on something so simple as this. I would never turn down a job like that. I always do similar work for customers who have tried to beat the system by not filing. For instance I get $1500 just to file a permit for a bathroom when the HO tries to sell their home only to find out he needs a CO for the work that was done. I think next time you should use better judgement. You could have gotten paid well.


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## RMatthis (Nov 9, 2009)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> See I think it was a foolish business decision. Ultimately the responsible party saved on hiring an electrical contractor. You could have made a respectable amount of money on something so simple as this. I would never turn down a job like that. I always do similar work for customers who have tried to beat the system by not filing. For instance I get $1500 just to file a permit for a bathroom when the HO tries to sell their home only to find out he needs a CO for the work that was done. I think next time you should use better judgement. You could have gotten paid well.



I think the majority of people here agree that this is a good decision. For example, say he does what you say what you would do, the later down the line (1-5 years)
a major fire breaks out and it's due to a faulty connection. The building is a 3 flat, so lives may be lost. The fire investigator says the fire was the result of faulty electrical wiring... 

Guess where the homeowner or tenants are going to send their lawyers? That's who I would go after. The guy on the permit. There is a paper trail, rook. Foolish business decision? You'll be in court so fast, and try to explain that you didn't even do the work...You just made a quick buck and pulled a permit. It may land you in jail. Once it hits the local papers, your business is ruined! 

You are now known as the guy who has no business ethics. They teach business ethics at local community colleges, you know. Maybe some night shcoolin' might do you and your company some good.


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

@ RMATTHIS

First off your not a lawyer. Second, their already is documentation that the job wasn't properly filed. Third, as a qualified electrical contractor it would be your responsibility to provide a contract written to exclude you of any harm. 

Also, I wouldn't just go to the town building dept and pull a permit and call for inspection the next day. THAT'S NOT THE PROPER COURSE OF ACTION!

I would take all the necessary steps to make sure the electrical wiring is up to par. Little do you know, in the event their was a fire and final conclusion was never found it will always be classified as an electrical fire.


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## Amish Electrician (Jan 2, 2010)

480, might I suggest we stay on point, and read the posts?

We're not talking about a homeowner doing work in his own home. I'm not aware of too many situations where the law would require the homeowner to hire someone with a license, rather than truly do it himself.

Likewise, homeowners don't get to cut meter seals, and the PoCo is within its' rights to want it inspected before they hook it up again. Clearly the inspector was not impressed by the skills of whoever did the job.

No, the OP said it was required to hire someone with a license, so I am inferring that this is a rental, or a commercial, job. No DIY allowed there!

My solution? The CUSStomer already paid once - to the hack. Let him pay me a 2nd time to rip it apart, then pay a third time for me to do it right. That ought to make him reconsider the logic of 'saving' money.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Amish Electrician said:


> 480, might I suggest we stay on point, and read the posts?.........
> Likewise, homeowners don't get to cut meter seals, and the PoCo is within its' rights to want it inspected before they hook it up again. Clearly the inspector was not impressed by the skills of whoever did the job....


Yes let's stay on topic. *You*, as well. This thread isn't about POCOs and cutting seals. So don't try to muddy the waters any further.


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## donselec (May 7, 2011)

this is a 3 family apt house i would say so in my neck of the woods no homeowner would be allowed to do work and endanger others lives...
plus a lot of people dont realize their insurance co can refuse to pay a claim if no permit or inspection has been done...


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## Amish Electrician (Jan 2, 2010)

480, the OP said 'the power company won't set the meter without an inspection ...' That suggests either new construction, or that they had cut the seal and pulled the meter for some reason. That, in turn, suggests that a service change was performed .... though there might have been some other reason (like a fire) for an emergency disconnect.

The waters don't seem muddy at all; someone tried to avoid hiring a pro, and got caught. They want to find sympathy, hand them a dictionary.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Amish Electrician said:


> ......., hand them a dictionary.


So that's your solution to their problem now?


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