# I’m deciding to leave the IBEW



## JoeCool612 (May 22, 2016)

I’ve thought long and hard about this. Actually, I ended up having dinner with another apprentice and realized my experiences have not been unusual. I’m not one to complain but I feel like we are fed this ideology in the union that we are the best trained, most efficient, and we take care of our members and I’m just not buying the hype anymore. Constantly get screamed at by foreman no matter how you perform a task or no matter how good you are. You can be laid off just because you don’t enjoy hunting or fishing or just because your foreman doesn’t like you. And honestly, I think I would prefer to go back to doing IT work. I still do believe being a tradesman is a vauleable skill hence the reason for me going through the apprenticeship but it’s literally the hunger games when it’s time for lay offs. Not for me. At any rate, I’ll be finishing up my last year of apprenticeship and I’ll have enough hours to take the masters test. Just curious, what are some other things you can do with a masters license other than working in the field or being an estimator or inspector?

Peace


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

I have worked Union and open shop and never had the experiences you describe, sure there were one or two screamers but you can have that in any job.

As for layoffs, many areas experience that Union or open shop.

If you are a good worker relocate to DC we need GOOD workers


----------



## active1 (Dec 29, 2009)

The IBEW can be a bit of a club.
Being involved, having the right friends, and other relationships can effect the tasks you get, and how long you work. At the end it effects your paycheck.

Truth is it can be that way on both sides, union or non-union.
It could happen anywhere, even outside of construction.
Really depends on the people.

There are non-union shops out there that are just horrible to their people.
Where they don't even provide you basic benefits and right required by law.
Some that 1099 you. So it's no OT, no unemployment, and no workers comp.
Others don't do breaks. Or want you to do things on your own time like warranty repairs, code corrections, meet at the shop before and after for paperwork, meetings, load and unload truck, get fuel, get material, review plans at home, or do paperwork after hours. Had some that wanted the tecs to wash and clean the trucks every week on their time off. Yet don't pay until you step on the job site. Not uncommon to see job ads where the EC want's the worker to provide all their own PPE. Health insurance and retirement seems to really vary by the area. There are still some that offer none. Depending on the state non-union training programs paid by the employer may be slim.

It can also be an insider club on the non-union side. Only worse. There can be more nepotism. Seen a lot more people placed in control that didn't have a clue. But between faking it, riding on the shoestrings of others, google, and sucking up, the googletrician supervisor can do well. They are the worst to work for. The 1st to blame the worker for their mistakes, and the 1st to take the glory of a job done well. 

I'm not one to play the game of advancing my career by social means. I know it's cost me. But I like to think all that I have accomplished was from my own skill. Not from social events that include drugs, alcohol, sex, and being friends with people because who they are. 

Perhaps you may want to wait till after you become a JW to see if it's any better for you. Keep going if your close to qualifying for the pension. If you want to drop out of the industry you may want to keep your membership to fall back on.

The master license really depends on the state. Some states only journeyman work counts for a master. Others would want more than 5 years. Some places it gets you close to having your own EC shop. Or a qualifier for an EC. I would recommend working as a journeyman a few years before talking about a master license.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

It sounds like you are basing a 750,000 man organization off of the few bad apples you have had to deal with.

You could talk to your training director and ask to have him move you to a different company. But it sounds like you want to quit, which is best for everyone because there are tens of thousands of ambitious men out there who would love to have your spot.


----------



## active1 (Dec 29, 2009)

IBEW was down to 662,175 in 2015 (Unionfacts.com).
Was 1 million in 1972.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

active1 said:


> IBEW was down to 662,175 in 2015 (Unionfacts.com).
> Was 1 million in 1972.


750,000 exactly.


----------



## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

You talkin 292?


----------



## JoeCool612 (May 22, 2016)

Majewski said:


> You talkin 292?


 Yeppers


----------



## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

I've heard tons of ****, no shocker here. I also know of some people who were starving without the bennies. You seem smart enough to land upright wherever you fall though.


----------



## PokeySmokey (Nov 14, 2017)

JoeCool612 said:


> I’ve thought long and hard about this. Actually, I ended up having dinner with another apprentice and realized my experiences have not been unusual. I’m not one to complain but I feel like we are fed this ideology in the union that we are the best trained, most efficient, and we take care of our members and I’m just not buying the hype anymore.


Most companies/organizations promote themselves as the best (Hype) and even departments within companies/organizations.




JoeCool612 said:


> Constantly get screamed at by foreman no matter how you perform a task or no matter how good you are.


Seems you just had some placing bad luck. Have you reported these foreman to the Union Office? If not then do so!



JoeCool612 said:


> You can be laid off just because you don’t enjoy hunting or fishing or just because your foreman doesn’t like you. And honestly, I think I would prefer to go back to doing IT work.


This occurs more often than you would believe in ALL Businesses/Companies/Etc. Even in the IT field.




JoeCool612 said:


> I still do believe being a tradesman is a vauleable skill hence the reason for me going through the apprenticeship but it’s literally the hunger games when it’s time for lay offs. Not for me. At any rate, I’ll be finishing up my last year of apprenticeship and I’ll have enough hours to take the masters test. Just curious, what are some other things you can do with a masters license other than working in the field or being an estimator or inspector?
> 
> Peace


You cannot do your Masters at the end of your apprenticeship. Most areas require AT LEAST 3 YEARS as a JOURNEYMAN before you can write your Master Electrician's Exam.

An Estimator will likely more studying.

If you mean an Electrical Inspector, better check with the Inspection Head Office to find out the requirements. Often at least 10 years experience as a Journeyman and usually in Construction dealing with Commercial and Industrial installations including Switchyards and Transformer Stations.


----------



## telsa (May 22, 2015)

As for me, having almost j-man status, I'd tough it out.

MOST of the ^%$# you're bitching about is relentless EVERYWHERE.

Look at Matt Lauer -- and thank your stars you're not a media chick.

He is the acme of an abusive executive -- and even at their pay scale -- is / was creepy as Hell.

BTW, the number one way of getting screamed at: reacting to the screaming.

MY response is always dead-pan. That frustrates the Hell out of screamers.

Who are really children underneath the vocals.

BTW, no small number of screamers LEARNED this tic from THEIR fathers.

They don't realize that such a tic caps their careers.

You want to know what capped Eisenhower's career ?

His bad temper. When Marshall finally promoted him, he was told -- flatly -- any more outbursts and he'd be busted back to Lt. Col.

Yup.

So he went all the way through WWII as Mr. Charm.

His chief of staff emitted the bad news -- every time.

See the film "Patton" as to how that was done.


----------



## JoeCool612 (May 22, 2016)

Majewski said:


> I've heard tons of ****, no shocker here. I also know of some people who were starving without the bennies. You seem smart enough to land upright wherever you fall though.


Yeah, I’m not knocking anyone who enjoys it but I don’t think this is for me. I don’t treat other grown men like they are children. I like to talk out issues and fix them. Not throw temper tantrums. I’ll figure something else out. 

As far as being a master electrician. You only need 10,000 hours in Minnesota. And I worked before I got in the apprenticeship so I banked hours.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

JoeCool612 said:


> Yeah, I’m not knocking anyone who enjoys it but I don’t think this is for me. I don’t treat other grown men like they are children. I like to talk out issues and fix them. Not throw temper tantrums. I’ll figure something else out.


Maybe the problem is that you don't listen very well, like in this thread?

People very clearly told you that it could be like that anywhere. People also told you that they never had that type of experience in the IBEW.

So for you to act like it's an IBEW thing is pretty crazy. I want to yell at you and tell you to go dig a ditch right now!


----------



## active1 (Dec 29, 2009)

HackWork said:


> 750,000 exactly.


Sorry Hack, it's not your fault the union lied to you.

372,223 "A" Members
298,853 "BA" Members
671,071 Total reported 2017 IBEW members

USDOL schedule 13 IBEW 2017 Report

https://olms.dol-esa.gov/query/orgReport.do

Sure is a lot of "BA" members


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

active1 said:


> Sorry Hack, it's not your fault the union lied to you.
> 
> 372,223 "A" Members
> 298,853 "BA" Members
> ...


I'm sorry, but there must be 750,000.


----------



## JoeCool612 (May 22, 2016)

HackWork said:


> JoeCool612 said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah, I’m not knocking anyone who enjoys it but I don’t think this is for me. I don’t treat other grown men like they are children. I like to talk out issues and fix them. Not throw temper tantrums. I’ll figure something else out.
> ...


Or maybe guys like you are the problem. You don’t even know me and you’re ready to yell at me lol. Go ahead and call your hunting buddies and nephews to come take my spot in the union.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

JoeCool612 said:


> Or maybe guys like you are the problem.


 Funny you say that since all my apprentices loved me and so did all the guys when I ran work. I currently employ a mixture of them on a very part time basis. But tell me more about how bad I am.



> You don’t even know me and you’re ready to yell at me lol.


 I don't know you, but I know that you have a history of complaining about your apprenticeship and I know you just posted here about how it's the IBEW's fault that you are having problems, without listening to the good advice you were given. 



> Go ahead and call your hunting buddies and nephews to come take my spot in the union.


 This is a nonsensical statement. No wonder no one likes you, you say stupid things and you don't listen.


----------



## active1 (Dec 29, 2009)

JoeCool612 said:


> As far as being a master electrician. You only need 10,000 hours in Minnesota. And I worked before I got in the apprenticeship so I banked hours.


It requires some of that time planing, layout, and supervising electrical work.
How far do they go to verify that, IDK. But the intent is not for a apprentice to turn master before graduation IMO.

http://dli.mn.gov/CCLD/LicElectricalExperience.asp


----------



## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

JoeCool612 said:


> I’ve thought long and hard about this. Actually, I ended up having dinner with another apprentice and realized my experiences have not been unusual. I’m not one to complain but I feel like we are fed this ideology in the union that we are the best trained, most efficient, and we take care of our members and I’m just not buying the hype anymore. Constantly get screamed at by foreman no matter how you perform a task or no matter how good you are. You can be laid off just because you don’t enjoy hunting or fishing or just because your foreman doesn’t like you. And honestly, I think I would prefer to go back to doing IT work. I still do believe being a tradesman is a vauleable skill hence the reason for me going through the apprenticeship but it’s literally the hunger games when it’s time for lay offs. Not for me. At any rate, I’ll be finishing up my last year of apprenticeship and I’ll have enough hours to take the masters test. Just curious, what are some other things you can do with a masters license other than working in the field or being an estimator or inspector?
> 
> Peace


Honesty Joe, if you are a cooter and let people talk to you like that, you are only going to make it hiding out in an IT room.
Take that foreman aside away from his boys and let him know how far you intend to stick your boot up his azz.
I had exactly one incident like that and yes, I was excluded from the Club but, I had my masters and started contracting as soon as I could get comfortable doing so.
I did have a problem with one other manager when I went inside, my little "club" took care of that real fast. We never saw that guy again.
You need to be tough and protect your livelyhood. Those other guys will appreciate you for that.
Wait until a GC is holding your money while he's on vacation. That's one hell of a measure of someone's limit.

Nothing worth is easy. Every old fukker like me is going to tell you the same thing.


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

There is no one road to "success" in the trades or any job for that matter. Relationships matter regardless. Until you get some sort of a ticket, license, etc, it can be tough. I've never been union, so I can't speak to that lifestyle. Some obviously have done well by it, others not so much. The same can be said for the non union side of things. I have more than I can handle and its largely due to the relationships I've made with people over the years, both peers and customers. It takes time to build these relationships. Right now there is plenty of work, at least in my area and things look bright.


----------



## JoeCool612 (May 22, 2016)

Southeast Power said:


> JoeCool612 said:
> 
> 
> > I’ve thought long and hard about this. Actually, I ended up having dinner with another apprentice and realized my experiences have not been unusual. I’m not one to complain but I feel like we are fed this ideology in the union that we are the best trained, most efficient, and we take care of our members and I’m just not buying the hype anymore. Constantly get screamed at by foreman no matter how you perform a task or no matter how good you are. You can be laid off just because you don’t enjoy hunting or fishing or just because your foreman doesn’t like you. And honestly, I think I would prefer to go back to doing IT work. I still do believe being a tradesman is a vauleable skill hence the reason for me going through the apprenticeship but it’s literally the hunger games when it’s time for lay offs. Not for me. At any rate, I’ll be finishing up my last year of apprenticeship and I’ll have enough hours to take the masters test. Just curious, what are some other things you can do with a masters license other than working in the field or being an estimator or inspector?
> ...


Man. I respect that so much. You’re absolutely right. I appreciate that.


----------



## JoeCool612 (May 22, 2016)

nrp3 said:


> There is no one road to "success" in the trades or any job for that matter. Relationships matter regardless. Until you get some sort of a ticket, license, etc, it can be tough. I've never been union, so I can't speak to that lifestyle. Some obviously have done well by it, others not so much. The same can be said for the non union side of things. I have more than I can handle and its largely due to the relationships I've made with people over the years, both peers and customers. It takes time to build these relationships. Right now there is plenty of work, at least in my area and things look bright.


I am optisimistc that once I get my journeyman license and/or masters that things will lighten up. I won’t have to work under someone else’s license but my own.


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I'd say definitely get yourself licensed and see which way the wind blows, whether you are the boss or not, it doesn't mean you can't be happy. Lot of people on here happy as employees others as owners. It will get better if you make it happen.


----------



## JoeCool612 (May 22, 2016)

nrp3 said:


> I'd say definitely get yourself licensed and see which way the wind blows, whether you are the boss or not, it doesn't mean you can't be happy. Lot of people on here happy as employees others as owners. It will get better if you make it happen.


I agree. I don’t want to be too hasty. I’m definitely going to finish the program.


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Good boy.


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

I'd try to switch locals and not leave. 

I think leaving is a really bad move.


----------



## JoeCool612 (May 22, 2016)

MechanicalDVR said:


> I'd try to switch locals and not leave.
> 
> I think leaving is a really bad move.


I’ll definitely think it through. And maybe I’ll take a break from commercial.


----------



## kg7879 (Feb 3, 2014)

Where ever you are they feed you ideology. Every guy I know who has organized in will tell you how the non union shops fed them an ideology about the union.

The training from the JATC is hands down the best in class training in the country compared to non union schools. As far as on the job training that can vary quite a bit and I would agree in some cases a non union shop can do better on the job training because they have a vested interest to keep you your whole career. 

As far as the foremen yelling at you I can not give any advice. I have seen plenty of apprentices play the victim (I am not saying this is you) and do a damn good job of holding up a wall while playing on their phone. Also, many foremen are not giving any proper management training. A lot of them are good electricians who know how to get the job done and in the end that is what contractors care about.


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

JoeCool612 said:


> I’ll definitely think it through. And maybe I’ll take a break from commercial.


Go south young man, try a new location.


----------



## JoeCool612 (May 22, 2016)

kg7879 said:


> Where ever you are they feed you ideology. Every guy I know who has organized in will tell you how the non union shops fed them an ideology about the union.
> 
> The training from the JATC is hands down the best in class training in the country compared to non union schools. As far as on the job training that can vary quite a bit and I would agree in some cases a non union shop can do better on the job training because they have a vested interest to keep you your whole career.
> 
> As far as the foremen yelling at you I can not give any advice. I have seen plenty of apprentices play the victim (I am not saying this is you) and do a damn good job of holding up a wall while playing on their phone. Also, many foremen are not giving any proper management training. A lot of them are good electricians who know how to get the job done and in the end that is what contractors care about.


I would agree. I know top notch electricians that make plenty of money for a company but they aren’t very good at explaining directions.


----------



## JoeCool612 (May 22, 2016)

MechanicalDVR said:


> JoeCool612 said:
> 
> 
> > I’ll definitely think it through. And maybe I’ll take a break from commercial.
> ...





JoeCool612 said:


> kg7879 said:
> 
> 
> > Where ever you are they feed you ideology. Every guy I know who has organized in will tell you how the non union shops fed them an ideology about the union.
> ...


I would enjoy the south and nice weather. I’m just waiting for my wife to finish her nursing clinicals here. As far as apprentices being on their phone or not following directions, I have been very congnizant lately to keep my phone in my lunch pail, and take note of what the foreman instructs. As well as be there on time and with a good attitude. And honestly, there are slip ups but for the most part I don’t have any chronic problems with those issues. But I always try to elimianate any issues that I can control.


----------



## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

Hey Joe

I have been in a couple different unions and I have seen similar
circumstances. There are ass***es everywhere you go . 

When I was a carpenters apprentice , those guys were trying
every which way to Sunday to see where my buttons were
and finally found one when they relentlessly started openly 
talking about f-ing my wife and yell "don't forget to bring 
your wife in tomorrow" at the end of each day.

I had to walk away from that cause I value my freedom over
prison time...and what I was about to do would most definitely
landed me in prison.

A lot of what Active posted about union and non union is true.
It's both. That's why I just eventually opened my own doors
and go out and find my own work.

Unions would be the best way to go , but the politics is thick
as molasses and if that bothers you now it will bother you all
the more later when you find out your J-man status isn't
getting you any further up the clout pole.


----------



## JoeCool612 (May 22, 2016)

lighterup said:


> Hey Joe
> 
> I have been in a couple different unions and I have seen similar
> circumstances. There are ass***es everywhere you go .
> ...


Yep. Exactly. That’s how I feel. Did you open up your shop non union? How Kong have you been doing it?


----------



## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

I would only consider leaving if I was moving to a completely different industry or if I was making at least double what my union wages and benefits provide.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


----------



## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

JoeCool612 said:


> Yep. Exactly. That’s how I feel. Did you open up your shop non union? How Kong have you been doing it?


Oh I'm non union and have been in business since 
November 2001. It'm not like others on this site. I could care
less about growth. 
I'm simply taking care of my own employment situation 
cause non union here is what Active describes. _All talk and_
_no walk_...don't want to pay , but family members of the
owner are driving Lexus's to work and wouldn't know aground
screw from a self tapping screw. It's been my non union
experience.
That carpenters apprenticeship was something I landed in right
out of the Army. The JW's there said it wasn't their job to train
me...that's what the school was for. They were brutal and I was
only making $5.75 an hr , staring down the barrel of a 6 year
apprenticeship.
I had gone to the VA rep @ unemployment office when I first 
got out of Army and he had set me up with 3 USPS exams 
right away and then I pounded the pavement when I discovered
the apprenticeship with carpenters local.

It wasn't long after that that I was offered a PT job making substantially
more $$ at the USPS , so I took that job. They have AFL-CIO union 
there too and it was highly political and very pro Dem there.

I eventually found an apprenticeship with a non union electrical 
contractor. I was there a few years and went to another non 
union company for a couple years.

One day a union guy just showed up at one of our new construction
jobs , basically head hunting and I arranged to go talk to them
at a later time at their hall.

They offered me full time work as a wireman , said "I would 
get in their formal apprenticeship program after 6 months".
the existing guys there 

After I started working , guys were asking me where I came 
from , yada yada & about 6 guys , all said there was no way 
I was getting into that program anytime soon cause they were 
all waiting in line ahead of me and had been doing so for YEARS. 

I was already 30 years old at this time and just was not going 
to wait , so I ended up figuring & reasoning ..eff it...I'll just
take control of my own future and start my own business.


----------



## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Just one word of advice when you are beginning to assert dominance with these guys.
It more important for them to see you sittin on their open lunch with your pants ankled than to just take a dump in it when no one is around.:thumbup:


----------



## active1 (Dec 29, 2009)

HackWork said:


> I'm sorry, but there must be 750,000.


*Wrong*
Cause the guy at the window told you?
Nothing but hopeful propaganda for the organizers.
Don't drink so much of the cool aid at the hall.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

active1 said:


> *Wrong*
> Cause the guy at the window told you?
> Nothing but hopeful propaganda for the organizers.
> Don't drink so much of the cool aid at the hall.


Exactly 750,000.


----------



## active1 (Dec 29, 2009)

Hack cool aid overdose


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

active1 said:


> Hack cool aid overdose


You fluctuate from a very smart person, to the exact opposite.

Do you really think that I think that there are 750,000 members on the dot? 

That's like thinking the Earth is round, just silly.


----------



## active1 (Dec 29, 2009)

Eh.. Spending too much time studying for another state while I'm off for a few weeks before CES.
Fed up with some of the state agencies when it comes to construction.
Got to take a break every once in a while and mess with Hack.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I think Hack was messing with you.

But that means that he likes you. 

Not in the Peter D - Chris1976 way, though.


----------



## btharmy2 (Mar 11, 2017)

I am having doubts that EVERY apprentice in you local is treated the way you claim to be treated. There are some bad apples out there that make things miserable. Most are reasonable guys who are ok to be around all day long. This applies on both sides of the fence. I have worked both and can verify its not if you are union or not, its about who you are working with. The actual individuals are what change things, not the company or union. If it is just you being singled out you might do some soul searching to find out why. There is almost always a reason for being singled out and treated badly. Otherwise, I recommend calling the apprenticeship office. You are part of a labor organization that can help you in these situations. Document everything for a couple weeks and then schedule a visit.


----------



## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

You are Union as soon as you turn out just move to a different contractor that's the beauty of it keep your pay and benefits.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


----------



## Rora (Jan 31, 2017)

I'm ex-IT and I work in the oilfield, it's essentially the same brainwashed machismo dialed up to 11... here's my take: there is very little real professionalism in a blue-collared work environment apart from a couple guys who have actual work ethic. I understand how frustrating this is considering you're probably used to the smoothed out social dynamics of IT, but there is a way to manage this.

Instead of giving up, see it as an opportunity to expand your personal professionalism skills. Some guy is being super unprofessional, condescending, or just a straight-up control freak? Stay smooth, you're better than that. Be that overworked McDonald's worker dealing with the psycho-mom and 4 kids in tow. I basically just ignore all the ******-level rhetoric and focus on stuff like break-fix execution, workmanship, productivity... I am almost a non-participant of conversations involving popular subjects, attitudes, and general feelgoodery, but I'm still respected 'cause I deliver.

My point is, you don't have to be popular or even likable to be recognized as valuable. If you're valuable, you'll actually begin to influence the social dynamic rather than suffer from it. Your problem is that blue-collar work environments are full of people who fully believe they're controlled by social dynamics, but the existence of the jobs themselves are actually justified by work skills. Focus on the latter and you undercut all the crap.


----------



## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

The biggest problem with the Union or any other organization, open shop, or otherwise, is the humans that occupy them.


----------



## mikedl361 (Dec 24, 2016)

I always heard those identical things about the union. How they brainwash there guys that they're so much better than non union. I myself been curious to switch over but just don't think itd be worth it .


----------



## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

mikedl361 said:


> I always heard those identical things about the union. How they brainwash there guys that they're so much better than non union. I myself been curious to switch over but just don't think itd be worth it .


I was non-union for about 5 years. Since I've been union (over 5 years) I can't imagine going back. If there are any non-union shops around here that can match or best the pay and benefits, job security, and flexibility, I haven't heard of them.


----------



## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

Don't quit. See how things go when you turn out. I have a feeling you may be quite pleased you stuck it out.
As far as foreman yelling at you. Like John said. When its just you and him, tell him you do not appreciate the way he is talking to you. Sometimes a quick discussion can clear the air.
Give him an alternative to being an asshole.


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

active1 said:


> The IBEW can be a bit of a club.
> Being involved, having the right friends, and other relationships can effect the tasks you get, and how long you work. At the end it effects your paycheck.
> 
> Truth is it can be that way on both sides, union or non-union.
> ...


You do not seem to know much about the non-onion side of things. Let me guess where you heard all of that?


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

TGGT said:


> You are Union as soon as you turn out just move to a different contractor that's the beauty of it keep your pay and benefits.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


Or when you get laid off you get to live off of me and the rest o the taxpayers.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

sbrn33 said:


> Or when you get laid off you get to live off of me and the rest o the taxpayers.


Just like everyone who gets laid off. And remember, considering the fact that the union has about a 10% marketshare on average across the nation, there are FAR more laid off non-union electrician than union.


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

HackWork said:


> Just like everyone who gets laid off. And remember, considering the fact that the union has about a 10% marketshare on average across the nation, there are FAR more laid off non-union electrician than union.


I have never laid anyone off other than for disciplinary reasons. Two of those went to the union and neither one is working at this point and time. Say what you want non-onion gives you more hours/loyalty that the union does.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

sbrn33 said:


> I have never laid anyone off other than for disciplinary reasons. Two of those went to the union and neither one is working at this point and time. Say what you want non-onion gives you more hours/loyalty that the union does.


What you do yourself is not representative of the whole. It's no different than me saying how I worked solid as a union member for 15 years and never had more than a 2 week vacation off. I don't try to pass my own experience off as normal for everyone, and you shouldn't either.

I have been saying this for a decade now and no one has ever been able to refute it: There are far more laid off non-union electrician than union.


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

HackWork said:


> What you do yourself is not representative of the whole. It's no different than me saying how I worked solid as a union member for 15 years and never had more than a 2 week vacation off. I don't try to pass my own experience off as normal for everyone, and you shouldn't either.
> 
> I have been saying this for a decade now and no one has ever been able to refute it: There are far more laid off non-union electrician than union.


You are Italian, nobody is going to trust your numbers.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

sbrn33 said:


> You are Italian, nobody is going to trust your numbers.


I reported your post for rasicm, I even spelled it wrong. You will never be a moderator now.


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

HackWork said:


> I reported your post for rasicm, I even spelled it wrong. You will never be a moderator now.


hell, I thought that was a compliment for an Italian


----------



## JoeCool612 (May 22, 2016)

TGGT said:


> mikedl361 said:
> 
> 
> > I always heard those identical things about the union. How they brainwash there guys that they're so much better than non union. I myself been curious to switch over but just don't think itd be worth it .
> ...


I totally understand but what if you’re a non union one man shop and you set your own schedule and pay your own benefits. Couldn’t that be better than working for someone in the union if you made close to the same pay union or non?


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

JoeCool612 said:


> I totally understand but what if you’re a non union one man shop and you set your own schedule and pay your own benefits. Couldn’t that be better than working for someone in the union if you made close to the same pay union or non?


I have been in business for myself for 5 years and do pretty well, IMO. I still don't make what I did in the union including the full package. There is also zero job security. 

The idea that you could just go out on your own and make a killing is nothing more than a farce. You have to work very hard and put in a lot of hours. Sure, you can set your own schedule, as long as your hours coincide with what each and every customer wants. Which 14 hours of the day do you want to work? :laughing:


----------



## JoeCool612 (May 22, 2016)

HackWork said:


> JoeCool612 said:
> 
> 
> > I totally understand but what if you’re a non union one man shop and you set your own schedule and pay your own benefits. Couldn’t that be better than working for someone in the union if you made close to the same pay union or non?
> ...


Sure, but what if you worked with a developer or you just did the electrical for a mechanical or HVAC shop? Wouldn’t you just need to work to supply your developer or general contractor?


----------



## splatz (May 23, 2015)

JoeCool612 said:


> I totally understand but what if you’re a non union one man shop and you set your own schedule and pay your own benefits. Couldn’t that be better than working for someone in the union if you made close to the same pay union or non?


It could be, it's just a lot harder than you think. 

To make the comparison, you have to know the dollar cost of benefits, especially health care and pension / retirement. 

Then you have to understand the cost of being in business - money you'll spend initially and over time on your own equipment, your lawyer, your accountant, your insurance agent, advertising, etc. 

You have to cover both of those, PLUS your wages, with the work that you bill for, to make as much as you do at your job. 

You can actually do that work after you're done answering the phone, paying your bills, billing your customers, meeting prospective customers, looking at jobs to bid, estimating jobs, writing bids / proposals, ordering materials and supplies, maintaining your truck, etc.


----------



## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

sbrn33 said:


> Or when you get laid off you get to live off of me and the rest o the taxpayers.


That's the cost of doing business. If you don't like it, vote people in that will abolish payroll taxes.

I don't even bother filing for unemployment anyway. Takes too long to collect for too little money. I make more money taking a few short calls while I wait for a good one.

Another perk of being union is that I don't have to prove I'm job searching, and I do not have to be willing to accept lower wages as Texas requires for the non-union folks. They don't want people trying to hold out for equal or higher wages. Another reason not to go jump back to the other side.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

JoeCool612 said:


> Sure, but what if you worked with a developer or you just did the electrical for a mechanical or HVAC shop? Wouldn’t you just need to work to supply your developer or general contractor?


You could go to work for a developer and wire up new developments for him. You will have to put laborers on the payroll because you can't afford to pay real electrician and in the end you will be lucky if you made $300 per house. But you won't see that money from the first development that you wired until you finished wiring up the 3rd one.

As for doing the electric for a mechanical or HVAC shop, you can do that too. But if it actually turns into a good gig, why would they give you the money when they can put someone with a license on the payroll and make all the money themselves?

If it was easy, everyone would be doing it and succeeding. While it seems like everyone in the trade tries to do it, very few succeed.

Like I told you earlier, go talk to your training director about being switched to another company.


----------



## 60Hertz (Sep 13, 2017)

you will always have people like that to deal with in any profession any trade or any job anywhere. Talking to the correct people to have the problem resolved is the thing to do before quitting. I have worked non-union and union both and it is a lot easier to have problems like that resolved being a union member vs not.


----------



## mikedl361 (Dec 24, 2016)

sbrn33 said:


> TGGT said:
> 
> 
> > You are Union as soon as you turn out just move to a different contractor that's the beauty of it keep your pay and benefits.
> ...


That's exactly what I always hear about the union. They hire you and then lay you off after the project.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

mikedl361 said:


> That's exactly what I always hear about the union. They hire you and then lay you off after the project.


That's the point. Then you go out to the next job. 

But if you are a good worker, contractors often keep you.


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> You could go to work for a developer and wire up new developments for him. You will have to put laborers on the payroll because you can't afford to pay real electrician and in the end you will be lucky if you made $300 per house. But you won't see that money from the first development that you wired until you finished wiring up the 3rd one.


That's a bit hyperbolic but still not far from the truth.


----------



## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

mikedl361 said:


> That's exactly what I always hear about the union. They hire you and then lay you off after the project.


I've only ever been laid off due to lack of work once. Otherwise I usually quit after a few years with a company because I get bored. Big jobs will do big layoffs unless you're awesome. Smaller companies will keep good guys on for steady work year round.

I've heard about a few guys that organized in from open shop, but they get butt hurt when they get laid off their first time and quit the union. A lot of guys have trouble wrapping their heads around the fact they don't have to look for another job anymore, that their health insurance (no premium) is good for up to 6 "banked" months in our local even if they're not working, that their retirement follows them, and they don't have to negotiate their minimum wage.

Don't have to interview, don't have to update the resume. Make prevailing wage all the time.

As long as I'm on the tools and not working for myself I'll be union. Ideology aside, it just makes financial sense.


----------



## btharmy2 (Mar 11, 2017)

mikedl361 said:


> That's exactly what I always hear about the union. They hire you and then lay you off after the project.


I am 23 years in the IBEW with ZERO time sitting on the bench. I see the same guys laid off every winter. They always blame the contractor or the union. Funny how a guy who has 3 or 4 w2 every year tells me how the contractor did him wrong. He needs to buy a mirror. Just like sbrn33 said, he laid a couple of guys off for disciplinary problems and they went union but are not working. He tried to say it is the unions fault the guys were not working but I bet they can't hold a job as a result of their own stupidity.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

btharmy2 said:


> I am 23 years in the IBEW with ZERO time sitting on the bench. I see the same guys laid off every winter. They always blame the contractor or the union. Funny how a guy who has 3 or 4 w2 every year tells me how the contractor did him wrong. He needs to buy a mirror. Just like sbrn33 said, he laid a couple of guys off for disciplinary problems and they went union but are not working. He tried to say it is the unions fault the guys were not working but I bet they can't hold a job as a result of their own stupidity.


Very true.

You're only 23? I didn't know you were just a pup. You come off as a much older, wiser man :thumbsup:


----------



## kg7879 (Feb 3, 2014)

btharmy2 said:


> I am 23 years in the IBEW with ZERO time sitting on the bench. I see the same guys laid off every winter. They always blame the contractor or the union. Funny how a guy who has 3 or 4 w2 every year tells me how the contractor did him wrong. He needs to buy a mirror. Just like sbrn33 said, he laid a couple of guys off for disciplinary problems and they went union but are not working. He tried to say it is the unions fault the guys were not working but I bet they can't hold a job as a result of their own stupidity.


There are plenty of good electricians that get laid off in the union. Big jobs always put guys back on the book.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

kg7879 said:


> There are plenty of good electricians that get laid off in the union. Big jobs always put guys back on the book.


This is true. But he was talking about guys who get laid off often and always complain about the contractors. Those guys tend to be the problem themselves.


----------

