# pool bonding grid connected to panel???



## thekctermite (May 6, 2008)

I'm dealing with a pool designer that specifies a #6 copper bonding grid on a commercial pool project. I'm certainly on board with bonding the rebar of the pool, deck reinforcing, pumps, metallic pieces, lights, and other required pieces.

However, they're specifying that the #6 wire terminate at the panel's ground bar. 

My 2002 NEC specifically states _"This section (680.26) does not require that the 8 AWG or larger solid copper bonding conductor be extended or attached to any remote panelboard, service equipment, or any electrode."_

I see no reason to run the wire to the panel, as we're not grounding...We're bonding. The intent is not to try to clear a fault, it is simply to eliminate gradient differences between potentially energized parts and pieces. Seems to me that the designer is missing the point.

My question is this:
Should I allow it or prohibit it? Although I see no specific hazard in connecting to the panel, I see less hazard in not doing it at all.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

It is not required, but it is also not prohibited. 

I see this ALL the time. Folks just CANNOT get a handle on the difference between grounding and bonding. 

When I see this I think that the person simply does not understand the issue. Scary coming from a "pool designer". Then again........


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## thekctermite (May 6, 2008)

Yes, I've seen it before. I just don't like it and it scares me. It seems to me that the pool and the bonding grid would serve as a big giant ufer ground. That sounds great, but I wouldn't want to be standing on the pool's ladder when that fault occurs and goes to earth via the bonding grid.

I don't like the idea of telling someone they can't do something if I can't justify it in the code. The code does assume that designers know the difference between grounding and bonding however, and interlacing the two systems seems unsafe.

I realize that the pool motor has an ECG and is connected to the grounding system, but does that in itself make the bonding grid a fault path if the #6 bonding wire weren't hooked to the panel?

Am I off-base in my concern for the pool users' safety based on the ufer theory I floated?


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

IT seems to me to that there is a lot more potential for danger with the pool bonding attached to the panel.


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## thekctermite (May 6, 2008)

That's my logic...


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## heel600 (Oct 31, 2007)

Bkessler said:


> IT seems to me to that there is a lot more potential for danger with the pool bonding attached to the panel.


 
the panel is already 'bonded' to the rebar/grid if it has a light. The bond wire and 12 ga ground wire already go to the same point in the deck box.

If the timer panel (sub panel w/ built in timer) is next to the pump, I bond it. 

I also run a 8 solid on the outside of the light to the outside of the deck box. Just a redundant bond.

I failed for both in the past. 

But I called the state (suzanne borek) and got a letter saying that it is not required, but is allowed.


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

Well if you lose a a grounded conductor at the service the pool could easily be the path of least resistance with a bonding wire attached to the panel. I know it's not dangerous. Just more potential.


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

thekctermite said:


> I'm dealing with a pool designer that specifies a #6 copper bonding grid on a commercial pool project. I'm certainly on board with bonding the rebar of the pool, deck reinforcing, pumps, metallic pieces, lights, and other required pieces.
> 
> However, they're specifying that the #6 wire terminate at the panel's ground bar.
> 
> ...


If he is telling you to bring the "bond" wire to the ground bar then he obviously doesnt understand the code as it is written. Why dont you ask him to show you where it says that in the code? But dont be a jerk about it say something like "You know I consider myself a student of the NEC and I am always up to learning something new, would it be a problem if you could show me where it says that in the code book, and after he flounders around for a while you could bail him out by saying something like " well I can see where you might get a little confused maybe your confusing......... and show him his mistake. this approch has worked for me in the past even with the most stubborn inspectors.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

I've seen it both ways, but I'd be inclined to allow it. My reason being that several of the items required to be tied to the equipotential bond are also required to be grounded. 

Pool equipment is notorious for corroding connections (chlorine) and in the event that the pump motor, for example, became faulted to ground, it'd have more than one path back to the main bonding jumper. 

Rob

P.S. Welcome to this forum, KC. I'm over at the DIY forum a lot too. You're one of the most knowledgeable yet tactful people I've ever run across. Sure wish I lived in your jurisdiction! 

Rob


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## thekctermite (May 6, 2008)

captkirk said:


> If he is telling you to bring the "bond" wire to the ground bar then he obviously doesnt understand the code as it is written. Why dont you ask him to show you where it says that in the code? But dont be a jerk about it say something like "You know I consider myself a student of the NEC and I am always up to learning something new, would it be a problem if you could show me where it says that in the code book, and after he flounders around for a while you could bail him out by saying something like " well I can see where you might get a little confused maybe your confusing......... and show him his mistake. this approch has worked for me in the past even with the most stubborn inspectors.


I'm the stubborn inspector in this case! :laughing: I'm definately a student of the NEC (sometimes in the remedial slow learners class!). Your approach is excellent, and as an inspector I always appreciate a friendly, informed, respectful, and professional approach...And I always give the same.

The pool designer (they specialize in pools) included a detail on their submittal to me for plan review showing the connection to the electrical panel. As the building official, I'm in the pickle of having to make a decision if my concerns justify prohibiting this condition despite the fact that it isn't expressly prohibitied by the code. Fact is that it is just an incredibly perfect example that illustrates a poor understanding of the difference between grounding and bonding on the designer's part.

Hey, I know an inspector that makes them drive a ground rod for the bonding grid because it makes him feel better. There's dummies on all sides of the fence for sure. 

Back to my ufer analogy...
Where my understanding drops off and gets fuzzy is the ECG that goes along with the circuit supplying the pump. The pump housing is also usually bonded to the grid as well. I admittedly don't understand pumps and motors as well as I'd like, but am struggling to understand if the idea that the pump being bonded and grounded is similar to connecting the bonding wire to its housing. Is that a clear path for fault current to travel from the ground wire through the pump to the bond wire? Is there true continuity there? I'm trying to determine if it is as "direct" a connection from bond to ground as they'd get if they actually hook that bonding conductor to the ground bar in the panel.

Guys, I appreciate your thoughts and opinions more than you know.


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

Great discusion!

My only concern with this, would include the loss of a neutral. (hypothetical and worse case I know)

Now this "BOND" becomes current carrying.


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

leland said:


> Great discusion!
> 
> My only concern with this, would include the loss of a neutral. (hypothetical and worse case I know)
> 
> Now this "BOND" becomes current carrying.


We really shouldnt wire for the what ifs. The list could prove to be endless. With that kind of thinking whats next? run an extra "just in case"neutral? you get my drift? Bonding creates an equopotential plane where everything has an equal potential. 

Oh wait i just reread your post! Now I get what you ment.


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

thekctermite said:


> I'm the stubborn inspector in this case! :laughing: I'm definately a student of the NEC (sometimes in the remedial slow learners class!). Your approach is excellent, and as an inspector I always appreciate a friendly, informed, respectful, and professional approach...And I always give the same.
> 
> The pool designer (they specialize in pools) included a detail on their submittal to me for plan review showing the connection to the electrical panel. As the building official, I'm in the pickle of having to make a decision if my concerns justify prohibiting this condition despite the fact that it isn't expressly prohibitied by the code. Fact is that it is just an incredibly perfect example that illustrates a poor understanding of the difference between grounding and bonding on the designer's part.
> 
> ...


You know we can debate this till we are blue in the face. The truth is all the thinking is already done for us. there is no discussion, the only problem here is a lack of understanding of the Code book. All the information is there. As far as understanding it all. It can be extremly difficult trying to understand something that you've never acually done before.
For example before the summer of 2007 i had a very limited understanding of pools. But during the summer of 2007 I got hooked up with a pool contractor and probably did 15 pools that summer, and let me tell you at the end of it I knew pools like nobodys buisness.I spent many a nights looking up codes for the next day so I wouldnt have to redo my work. And I can tell you all the information is there for anyone to see.This is the best way to learn something. Read it, do it, look it up, understand it. You just have to know how to find it and what your looking at. YES it can be very difficult if you have no practical app on it but that just means that you have to work at it a little harder. This is were some inspectors in my opinion lack a little. They are not sure and Im sure their job can be difficult at times so they over think some things just to cover their butts.


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

thekctermite said:


> I'm the stubborn inspector in this case! :laughing: I'm definately a student of the NEC (sometimes in the remedial slow learners class!). Your approach is excellent, and as an inspector I always appreciate a friendly, informed, respectful, and professional approach...And I always give the same.
> 
> The pool designer (they specialize in pools) included a detail on their submittal to me for plan review showing the connection to the electrical panel. As the building official, I'm in the pickle of having to make a decision if my concerns justify prohibiting this condition despite the fact that it isn't expressly prohibitied by the code. Fact is that it is just an incredibly perfect example that illustrates a poor understanding of the difference between grounding and bonding on the designer's part.
> 
> ...


Look right there......."BONDING GRID" "GROUND ROD" two totally different things. and they are self explanatory in their names. bonding....ground.... it really cant be any more clearer than that......right. ?


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## thekctermite (May 6, 2008)

Thanks everyone for contributing to this. I'm really still fidgeting over this and I appreciate your insight and expertise. 

One person on the ICC forum suggested that I consider NEC article 250.6, which deals with *"objectionable current flow over the grounding conductors or grounding paths."* But, it lacks the key word I need to feel warm and fuzzy, which is *"potential (objectionable current)"*.

I've objected to the proposed installation in writing to the designer, but have also indicated that the code may not support me in actually prohibiting the connection to the panel. I hate to step on my credibility in the interest of safety, but might just do it to be able to sleep at night.


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

thekctermite said:


> Thanks everyone for contributing to this. I'm really still fidgeting over this and I appreciate your insight and expertise.
> 
> One person on the ICC forum suggested that I consider NEC article 250.6, which deals with *"objectionable current flow over the grounding conductors or grounding paths."* But, it lacks the key word I need to feel warm and fuzzy, which is *"potential (objectionable current)"*.
> 
> I've objected to the proposed installation in writing to the designer, but have also indicated that the code may not support me in actually prohibiting the connection to the panel. I hate to step on my credibility in the interest of safety, but might just do it to be able to sleep at night.


In my proffesional opinion your probalbly doing more bad than good by connecting the bonding grid to the ground/neutral bar. Think of the bonding grid like a bird sitting on a live wire.. maybe that will help.


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## thekctermite (May 6, 2008)

captkirk said:


> Look right there......."BONDING GRID" "GROUND ROD" two totally different things. and they are self explanatory in their names. bonding....ground.... it really cant be any more clearer than that......right. ?


So you'd prohibit the connection of the bond wire to the panel? Sounds like it. Yes, I'm overthinking. But as an inspector I have to be able to face the people whose work I'm disapproving and show them code to substantiate the call. Or at least I want to be able to....Keeps that credibility intact.


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## thekctermite (May 6, 2008)

captkirk said:


> In my proffesional opinion your probalbly doing more bad than good by connecting the bonding grid to the ground/neutral bar. Think of the bonding grid like a bird sitting on a live wire.. maybe that will help.


Sorry, we're posting at the same time! :laughing:

Yeah, I grasp the fundamental differences. That's why I think that connecting the two systems is errant.


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## thekctermite (May 6, 2008)

I've never seen anyone actually specify or do this, and I've looked at hundreds of pools!


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

thekctermite said:


> So you'd prohibit the connection of the bond wire to the panel? Sounds like it. Yes, I'm overthinking. But as an inspector I have to be able to face the people whose work I'm disapproving and show them code to substantiate the call. Or at least I want to be able to....Keeps that credibility intact.


Listen.... If you have a 2005 Handbook which is what we are still on in NJ (and Im pretty sure its the same for 2008)go to page 998 and read the highlighted area this might help you understand the purpose a little bit better that I can explain it. But remember we are bound to what the CODE BOOK tells us not what people think or do not understand. I hope this helps. I get the feeling that you want to tell them not to do it but your a little tenative of getting into a technical argument with them. If I were you I would google bonding vs grounding and go from there. Or if you can get your hands on Mike Holts Bonding and Grounding this will surely turn you into an expert on the subject. and in the end you will gain the respect of you peers for showing them the Light. Anyhoo good luck man....:thumbsup:


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## Joe Penachio (Sep 20, 2008)

Hello KC, try this. 
Making this connection would make the pool grid part of the grounding electrode system.
Since this grid is not listed as a grounding electrde as per 250.52(A)(1)-(A)(8), it is not even permitted to be connected to the grounding electrode system per code. 
It would not meet (A)(6) because it is not listed, and it would not meet (A)(8) because it is not a piping system, underground tank, or underground metal well casing


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## thekctermite (May 6, 2008)

Thanks Joe. That's a code section I've been eyeballing pretty hard. I think they could make a somewhat solid case for 250.52 (A)(3) (concrete-encased electrode) if they were using a #4 or larger wire. They've specified a #6 though. :thumbsup:

I've spoken with the architect about my concerns, and spent some time expaining the difference between grounding systems and bonding grids, and why I feel there's an issue with connecting the two in this manner. I think they're trying to go above and beyond the code's bonding requirement by doing this, but lack the fundamental understanding of what the bonding grid does. We'll see what plays out.


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## Joe Penachio (Sep 20, 2008)

I wouldn't consider the slab as a concrete encased electrode because a concrete encased electrode is " located horizontally near the bottom or vertically and within that portion of a concrete foundation or footing " etc. with 20' of 1/2" rebaar or 20' of # 4 Cu.


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## trentonmakes (Mar 21, 2017)

heel600 said:


> the panel is already 'bonded' to the rebar/grid if it has a light. The bond wire and 12 ga ground wire already go to the same point in the deck box.
> 
> If the timer panel (sub panel w/ built in timer) is next to the pump, I bond it.
> 
> ...


The light niche is bonded to rebar, not the panel.
The insulated green pulled with the pool light wire bonds the brass of deck box.

I dont like those plastic boxes specifically for the reason you mentioned.








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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

yeah I been wondering about that too for the last 8+ years:jester:


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

trentonmakes said:


> The light niche is bonded to rebar, not the panel.
> The insulated green pulled with the pool light wire bonds the brass of deck box.
> 
> I dont like those plastic boxes specifically for the reason you mentioned.
> ...



Wonder what code cycle he was on back in 2008?


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## Spark Master (Jul 3, 2012)

What is this new water bonding thing ?


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## trentonmakes (Mar 21, 2017)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Wonder what code cycle he was on back in 2008?


I dunno
Ive only been at this for 6 months! Lol






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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

trentonmakes said:


> I dunno
> Ive only been at this for 6 months! Lol
> 
> 
> ...






Kids! :jester:


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Spark Master said:


> What is this new water bonding thing ?


680.26C was introduced in .14>>>



> *C) Pool Water*. Where none of the bonded parts is in
> direct connection with the pool water, the pool water shall
> be in direct contact with an approved corrosion-resistant
> conductive surface that exposes not less than 5800 mm
> ...


The '17 HB explains how pool related equipment can apply

~CS~


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## Spark Master (Jul 3, 2012)

I'm looking at some of the water bonding gadgets for gunite pools. It's going to take me awhile to wrap my head around it.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

Spark Master said:


> I'm looking at some of the water bonding gadgets for gunite pools. It's going to take me awhile to wrap my head around it.


One company makes a PVC coupling that has a stainless steel coil inside with a lug on the outside for just such water bonding. You place it in the plumbing of the pool.


On a side note, many, many people have died in this pool in the 9 years since this thread was made


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## Spark Master (Jul 3, 2012)

I don't comprehend the point of electrify water on purpose. Let's say there is a fault in the pump motor to ground. It's a small fault, with enough resistance that the breaker is NOT going to trip.

Now you have a small voltage on the bonding wire. Why would you also want to put a small voltage into the water ?


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## trentonmakes (Mar 21, 2017)

Your not!

The bonding grid and wires are only keeping things at the same potential so noone gets 😲 shocked.
Part of the bonding grid taps into the piping feeding the filter pump and BONDS the water along with all equipment, liner coping, the ground itself, pool lights, the rebar, ladders, diving boatds....and anything metal within 6ft of pool edge.
The bonding grid is seperate from your ground/panel!







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## Spark Master (Jul 3, 2012)

I can't see it being totally separate. It's connected by earth at the very least. And how many equiptobonds have you seen run into the ground bar ??


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## trentonmakes (Mar 21, 2017)

Spark Master said:


> I'm looking at some of the water bonding gadgets for gunite pools. It's going to take me awhile to wrap my head around it.


Its actually easy minus the goddamn grid trench around the pool. I guess some genius figured things work better 18-24inches from pool and 4-6inches deep! Lol

Gunnite
You rig up 4 tails on the rebar so they stick out after they set the concrete.
Connect the pool lights to rebar also bonding them to said rebar. Run a wire back to equipment pad.
Go back and connect those tails with 1 continous loop around the pool. Attach the cups for ladders railings.....umbrellas....
Run a wire through the heater lug, filter pump or pumps, salter, water lug...
Connect that to the wire you ran back to the pad from grid when it was just a hole in the ground.
Liner pools add a coping lug too bond the metal coping on the liner.






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## trentonmakes (Mar 21, 2017)

Spark Master said:


> I can't see it being totally separate. It's connected by earth at the very least. And how many equiptobonds have you seen run into the ground bar ??


Lol 
Its only bonding the ground to keep the pool area at the same potential as everything else.

Its like rubbing your feet on carpet and touching the door knob.
Thats basically what your trying to prevent in pools. The bonding keeps it all at same potential so theres no/small chance for shocks






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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Two things. Thing #1 is I have also received blueprint drawings from Architects that had layout drawings for all things pool and showing a #8 bare running to the pool equipemnt panel. I called this goober up on my phone and chewed him out over the phone about it. I also believe it presents an additional hazard to the pool. Thing #2. That pool water bonding thing. Right now we are still on the 08 where I live so narny narny boo boo to you suckers ( for a while longer at least....)


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## Spark Master (Jul 3, 2012)

Ok, you bond the #8 to the pump motor lug. You are now effectively "connected" to ground (grounding buss bar) via the 12 gauge motor cord. 

Unless I'm missing something here.

and they limit the motor SJ cord to 3' so the ground length isn't excessive.

and if I'm missing something, please explain it.
I know if I ohm between the motor lug, and the ground buss bar, I will get 0.00 ohms.


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## trentonmakes (Mar 21, 2017)

Spark Master said:


> Ok, you bond the #8 to the pump motor lug. You are now effectively "connected" to ground (grounding buss bar) via the 12 gauge motor cord.
> 
> Unless I'm missing something here.
> 
> ...


No
Pump housing lug
Your bonding the metal shell of the pump.
The pump is essentially the door knob in my analogy!

We wire our pumps for 240v useing #12 thwn. Many if not all over 3ft lengths.








You can barely make out pump lug in pic...
It runs from heater to the pump along the flex then goes to front of pad too connect the long tail from pool and the water lug




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## Spark Master (Jul 3, 2012)

Don't you run a ground wire in the SJ cord (12-3) to the pump?? Or a green THHN in the seal tight? Where does the ground wire go ??

Isn't the pump shell grounded to the feed wire, weather it's a SJ or seal tight????


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## trentonmakes (Mar 21, 2017)

Spark Master said:


> I don't comprehend the point of electrify water on purpose. Let's say there is a fault in the pump motor to ground. It's a small fault, with enough resistance that the breaker is NOT going to trip.
> 
> Now you have a small voltage on the bonding wire. Why would you also want to put a small voltage into the water ?


Yes its grounded.

If that happens it will have the same potential all along the bonding. The water, earth, lights and all metal parts. At least thats how i see it working.

You could have 13k volts on the bonding grid but because everything is at same potential theres no shock hazzard.







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## scotch (Oct 17, 2013)

RePhase277 said:


> One company makes a PVC coupling that has a stainless steel coil inside with a lug on the outside for just such water bonding. You place it in the plumbing of the pool.
> 
> 
> On a side note, many, many people have died in this pool in the 9 years since this thread was made


It's called a "current collector " ....used to be quite common on PVC piping at the pool pump .


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## eds (Mar 21, 2009)

Are they in fact not technically connected via the light deck box, we take a insulated #8 to the niche and terminate it in the deck box, light has a #12 equipment ground that terminates on this same bar. Exterior of niche bonds to the bonding grid, interior niche lug and exterior niche lug are one and the same. Pool motor has bonding lug and egc lug are these not connected. Most of the intelli touch panels that i have seen have 2 bonding lugs on them. I don't take a bonding conductor to the panel, but i believe the grid has a tie to the panel via the egc of the equipment


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## Aero guy (Jul 12, 2019)

*Can pool bond and electrical ground be connected?*

My friend and I are putting in a new pump on a 10+ year old pool. Obviously we've been doing a lot of research. As an engineer I'm a bit concerned that there is still a lack of understanding of bonding versus grounding. Every thread correctly points out the different missions of the two systems but there seems to be confusion about them physically interfacing. Separate jobs don't equate to total physical separation. This confusion surfaces when talking about the safety of attaching the bonding system to the main panel ground. 

Except for double insulated pumps, there is a very real connection between the bonding wire and the ground wire through the pump housing. In addition, the pool light panel is connected to the electrical ground at the same place as the bonding wire. The code is silent on connecting the bonding cable to the main panel because it is a redundant connection...unless you find the bonding wire connected to the pump just stuck in the ground next to he pump like we found on my friends system. Luckily, the pool light provided a backup connection from pump to bond via the electrical ground. 

I heartily invite discussion...especially disagreement! I've found this subject being discussed on many threads with pretty much the same advice...keep the bond and grounds separate. My question is why?


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

Aero guy said:


> My friend and I are putting in a new pump on a 10+ year old pool. Obviously we've been doing a lot of research. As an engineer I'm a bit concerned that there is still a lack of understanding of bonding versus grounding. Every thread correctly points out the different missions of the two systems but there seems to be confusion about them physically interfacing. Separate jobs don't equate to total physical separation. This confusion surfaces when talking about the safety of attaching the bonding system to the main panel ground.
> 
> Except for double insulated pumps, there is a very real connection between the bonding wire and the ground wire through the pump housing. In addition, the pool light panel is connected to the electrical ground at the same place as the bonding wire. The code is silent on connecting the bonding cable to the main panel because it is a redundant connection...unless you find the bonding wire connected to the pump just stuck in the ground next to he pump like we found on my friends system. Luckily, the pool light provided a backup connection from pump to bond via the electrical ground.
> 
> I heartily invite discussion...especially disagreement! I've found this subject being discussed on many threads with pretty much the same advice...keep the bond and grounds separate. My question is why?


Don't bring them together. Why introduce a hazard that doesn't exist by bringing them together? If there's a fault and the grounding conductor becomes energized you'll kill anyone in the pool, climbing out of the pool or standing on the concrete bonded deck. Or if they grab the metal fence or gate around the pool. It's a stupid code requirement to bring it back to the EGC.

That's why I prefer a double insulated pool pump that eliminates the bonding requirement. It lowers the risk of the bond conductor from being energized. 

The theory behind a "BOND" is to insure that all stray voltages (from the utility or natural causes) that come in contact with all metal objects within 5 feet of the pool/spa and the water in the pool/spa stay at the same potential to ground. 

The '11 code I think required window frames and metal flashing under the 12 foot vertical rule on the edge of a house roof to also be bonded. How stupid is that? Something that is completely isolated from being energized, ever, is now bonded and brought back to the electrical EGC. 

These morons on the code making panels don't understand basic electrical theory and don't have an ounce of common sense among them.

Keep the bonding wire away from the EGC.


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

flyboy said:


> Don't bring them together. Why introduce a hazard that doesn't exist by bringing them together? If there's a fault and the grounding conductor becomes energized you'll kill anyone in the pool, climbing out of the pool or standing on the concrete bonded deck. Or if they grab the metal fence or gate around the pool. It's a stupid code requirement to bring it back to the EGC.
> 
> That's why I prefer a double insulated pool pump that eliminates the bonding requirement. It lowers the risk of the bond conductor from being energized.
> 
> ...



You're right and you're also wrong!
The pump motor is already attached to the grid if the bonding was done correctly. The pump is also connected to the EGC, which in turn, runs back to the panel. If you purposely connect the grid to the EGC system, it is no worse than the pump already tying the two together.


Also, you said that if a fault occurred at the pump it would shock anyone at the pool if the grid was tied to the EGC. That would not be true if the bonding was done correctly because everything would be a the same potential. Now if someone was to be able to reach something outside of the grid area, then they would be in danger of a shock just like if the area was not bonded at all.


Now I don't run the bonding wire back to the panel because it's not required, but not because it introduces any hazard.


I do agree that intentionally energizing something out of reach anyway is a hazard, such as gutters, window casings above reach, etc.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

A Little Short said:


> You're right and you're also wrong!
> The pump motor is already attached to the grid if the bonding was done correctly. The pump is also connected to the EGC, which in turn, runs back to the panel. If you purposely connect the grid to the EGC system, it is no worse than the pump already tying the two together.
> 
> 
> ...


You ever seen poorboy using his ten foot long aluminum sweep pole to sweep up the crap at the bottom of the pool? You ever run into an energized rain gutter?
I have seen both multiple times.


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## Apelectric (Dec 6, 2017)

macmikeman said:


> ]
> 
> You ever seen poorboy using his ten foot long aluminum sweep pole to sweep up the crap at the bottom of the pool? You ever run into an energized rain gutter?
> I have seen both multiple times.


What was energizing the rain gutter?


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