# Split level rewire



## JakeDaSnake1737

I'm doing my first solo mission side job rewire and I'm running into a problem how would you get a new circuit in the bathroom for the GFCI ? What's the best way to get a home run from the garage to the top floor of a split level house with a beam going both ways almost directly on the panel..

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## joebanana

If you can't get to the attic through the garage wall, run a conduit on the outside to the attic, then across, then down.
Or, break out the Sawzall, Holehawg, and hammer.


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## brian john

Without pictures or drawings, it is durn near impossible to tell you anything EXCEPT there is ALMOST always a way


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## 99cents

brian john said:


> Without pictures or drawings, it is durn near impossible to tell you anything EXCEPT there is ALMOST always a way


There is always a way, Brian. Two determining factors:

1) Desire
2) Size of bank account


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## daveEM

JakeDaSnake1737 said:


> I'm doing my first solo mission side job rewire and I'm running into a problem


Side job? Sounds like you should be in jail.


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## JakeDaSnake1737

daveEM said:


> Side job? Sounds like you should be in jail.


With proper permits and licensing my state allows it.

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## JakeDaSnake1737

I'll have pictures after Christmas, the beam was drilled by the previous electrician and wires run through it. I'm pretty sure I'm able to go up from the panel and run along the beam and maybe hole hawg into the attic? If I go in thru the wall I wouldn't have to use a conduit would I? Rc50 wouldn't count would it....???

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## 99cents

I’m confused. Are these actual beams? I’m thinking they might just be joists or non-structural framing. How is the original cable run into the panel if there are beams in the way? If so, sounds like a horrible place for a panel.

The outside conduit is an option. I don’t like it but I have done it. I have also run EMT surface mount inside the garage to an attic. Split levels usually have two attics. If you make it to one, it might be a matter of making it to the other. Sometimes they’re connected anyway.

Fishing cable is a matter of poking and planning. Whatever you do, pull extra up to the attic and put a note on the panel. It helps the next guy who gets asked to put in floor heat and towel warmers (the next guy might be you anyway).


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## MikeFL

With a long enough drill bit you can get to anywhere you need to go.


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## 99cents

JakeDaSnake1737 said:


> I'll have pictures after Christmas, the beam was drilled by the previous electrician and wires run through it. I'm pretty sure I'm able to go up from the panel and run along the beam and maybe hole hawg into the attic? If I go in thru the wall I wouldn't have to use a conduit would I? Rc50 wouldn't count would it....???
> 
> Sent from my LM-X410(FG) using Tapatalk





MikeFL said:


> With a long enough drill bit you can get to anywhere you need to go.


Like through gas lines, finished flooring and textured ceiling  . I know a guy who knows a guy...


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## MikeFL

It was a joke Hack. Sounds like somebody's going to end up doing sheetrock & painting.


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## HackWork

MikeFL said:


> It was a joke *Hack*. Sounds like somebody's going to end up doing sheetrock & painting.


:surprise::sad:


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## JakeDaSnake1737

99cents said:


> I’m confused. Are these actual beams? I’m thinking they might just be joists or non-structural framing. How is the original cable run into the panel if there are beams in the way? If so, sounds like a horrible place for a panel.
> 
> The outside conduit is an option. I don’t like it but I have done it. I have also run EMT surface mount inside the garage to an attic. Split levels usually have two attics. If you make it to one, it might be a matter of making it to the other. Sometimes they’re connected anyway.
> 
> Fishing cable is a matter of poking and planning. Whatever you do, pull extra up to the attic and put a note on the panel. It helps the next guy who gets asked to put in floor heat and towel warmers (the next guy might be you anyway).


Yep that's the only thing is making it into the attic from the garage while following code and doing as little damage as possible... 

This house has no 12/2 for the bathrooms, and I need to add the kitchen gfcis. If I can get from panel to attic I'm good, pretty easy to find stuff in this attic. 

If I run surface mount emt does the EMT need to run from connector at panel and up to the connecter at the attic?

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## 3DDesign

There should be two attics on two different levels. I've had success fishing up the garage wall next to the stairs. I was able to hit all three levels. While you're at it, include a 14/3 for interconnected Smoke and CO detectors. Cut an outlet or smoke detector into the wall for access. I've used the outlet for a wireless security camera on the stairs.


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## Navyguy

Typical split level will have a structure (3 or 4 @ 2 x 10 or 3 or 4 @ 2 x 12) laminated together between the main floor and the upper floor, usually right where you want to put a switch or a counter receptacle. I have seen where others have "hacked out" the beam to install the receptacle; clearly after the structural inspection was completed.

I would not be drilling or hacking open this beam; it is an issue waiting to happen.

Cheers
John


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## telsa

OP: You may have to snake it until it's jake.

But I think you knew that.


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## flyboy

Go out the back of the panel using 3/4 or 1" PVC to a PVC LB and go up the side of the house to another LB and back into the attic and put a 6x6x4 pull box. 

Pull yourself a bunch of circuits up there. Be careful not to drill into the meter pan, SEU cable or low voltage stuff on the outside of the house.


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## John Valdes

JakeDaSnake1737 said:


> With proper permits and licensing my state allows it.


If you have a license why have you ignored my PM regarding your profile?
Please fill it out. Today. Thanks


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## JakeDaSnake1737

John Valdes said:


> If you have a license why have you ignored my PM regarding your profile?
> Please fill it out. Today. Thanks


I didn't see your message till just now. I will, I'm on vacation.

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## jelhill

JakeDaSnake1737 said:


> I'm doing my first solo mission side job rewire and I'm running into a problem how would you get a new circuit in the bathroom for the GFCI ? What's the best way to get a home run from the garage to the top floor of a split level house with a beam going both ways almost directly on the panel..
> 
> Sent from my LM-X410(FG) using Tapatalk


A solution that I often resorted to for split levels... If there is a closet that sits on top of the garage you can sneak a run of conduit through it all the way up to the attic. Use a front corner of the closet and the conduit will hardly be noticed.


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## JakeDaSnake1737

telsa said:


> OP: You may have to snake it until it's jake.
> 
> But I think you knew that.


Took long enough for the Jake/ reference lol

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## JakeDaSnake1737

3DDesign said:


> There should be two attics on two different levels. I've had success fishing up the garage wall next to the stairs. I was able to hit all three levels. While you're at it, include a 14/3 for interconnected Smoke and CO detectors. Cut an outlet or smoke detector into the wall for access. I've used the outlet for a wireless security camera on the stairs.


This house is old bro. The smokies are batt controlled and are not wired at all. Does that mean I need to add them. I doubt there are even co2 in there.

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## JakeDaSnake1737

flyboy said:


> Go out the back of the panel using 3/4 or 1" PVC to a PVC LB and go up the side of the house to another LB and back into the attic and put a 6x6x4 pull box.
> 
> Pull yourself a bunch of circuits up there. Be careful not to drill into the meter pan, SEU cable or low voltage stuff on the outside of the house.


This might just be the best option. It'll save on time, money, damage to walls and such, etc. I need to add 10 new circuits tho ..

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## flyboy

JakeDaSnake1737 said:


> This might just be the best option. It'll save on time, money, damage to walls and such, etc. I need to add 10 new circuits tho ..
> 
> Sent from my LM-X410(FG) using Tapatalk


Use 1" PVC. Put an 8x8x6 pull box in the attic and go from there. 

Pull a few extras.


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## JakeDaSnake1737

flyboy said:


> Use 1" PVC. Put an 8x8x6 pull box in the attic and go from there.
> 
> Pull a few extras.


Homeowner doesn't want PVC on side of house

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## flyboy

JakeDaSnake1737 said:


> Homeowner doesn't want PVC on side of house
> 
> Sent from my LM-X410(FG) using Tapatalk


Your on your own brother! I'd walk, but that's just me. :vs_laugh:


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## JakeDaSnake1737

flyboy said:


> Your on your own brother! I'd walk, but that's just me. :vs_laugh:


Damn lol thanks for trying 

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## HackWork

flyboy said:


> Use 1" PVC. Put an 8x8x6 pull box in the attic and go from there.
> 
> Pull a few extras.


You can't pull 10 circuits thru a single raceway without debilitation derating.


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## HackWork

OP, there are a lot of ways to get this done. 

Is there a bathroom backed up to the garage? If so, you can break into the wall and follow the vent pipe up thru the second floor into the attic.

Split level houses often have a level even with the garage. I have broken into the ceiling in the garage, then across the ceiling above that lower level, and then into either a closet or the stairs to the basement. From the basement I have followed the plumbing vent or chimney up to the attic. 

Another alternative is that the lower level usually has a footing bump-out which looks like a 4" shelf 2-3 feet high on the wall. I have been able to send rods from the garage into the basement by riding the top of this shelf between the cement and the drywall.

For 10 circuits you are better off running a single cable and then installing a small subpanel.


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## 99cents

JakeDaSnake1737 said:


> Homeowner doesn't want PVC on side of house
> 
> Sent from my LM-X410(FG) using Tapatalk


Neither would I. EMT looks nicer.


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## JakeDaSnake1737

HackWork said:


> You can't pull 10 circuits thru a single raceway without debilitation derating.


I know, I would have to make a couple different holes for the circuits.

Thank you for your guy's help. With all the different ideas I'm much more confident in the completion of the project. 

I think the last question I have is about smoke detectors.. do I have to hard wire the house if it isn't already?

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## JakeDaSnake1737

99cents said:


> Neither would I. EMT looks nicer.


Lol truee

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## 99cents

JakeDaSnake1737 said:


> I know, I would have to make a couple different holes for the circuits.
> 
> Thank you for your guy's help. With all the different ideas I'm much more confident in the completion of the project.
> 
> I think the last question I have is about smoke detectors.. do I have to hard wire the house if it isn't already?
> 
> Sent from my LM-X410(FG) using Tapatalk


I would. Inspector’s call maybe but, if you’re doing all that work anyway, it only makes sense.

Check your code but here we are allowed hard wired power and wireless interconnect (Nest, Kidde).


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## HackWork

JakeDaSnake1737 said:


> I think the last question I have is about smoke detectors.. do I have to hard wire the house if it isn't already?


That is fire code and it is different in all areas. But for the most part you shouldn't have to upgrade to hardwired smokes unless you demoed the walls.

I believe someone made that suggestion as a way to make a hole in the wall for access to snake wiring, and then close it up with an electrical box and smoke detector. And then you can upcharge the customer for it! :biggrin:


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## 99cents

Adding ten circuits in a house isn’t a side job. Changing a fixture for grandma is a side job.

Sometimes a job like this is better off left until they do bigger renovations. Even if they’re just planning to paint, it’s the opportunity to cut open walls and patch and paint. It’s just as easy, sometimes easier, to cut out big sections of drywall. If they plan on replacing flooring you can cut out subfloor. 

Like Hack says, if it’s ten circuits, find a place for a sub.

The OP is new at this and this isn’t a good first job. There’s no shame in walking away. You gotta start small.


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## Unionpride277

daveEM said:


> q
> 
> 
> JakeDaSnake1737 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm doing my first solo mission side job rewire and I'm running into a problem
> 
> 
> 
> Side job? Sounds like you should be in jail.
Click to expand...

Lol yea they should put this on law and order .
“ easy killer “


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## John Valdes

Welcome to Electrician Talk Jake.
Thanks for taking the time to fill out your profile.


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## JakeDaSnake1737

99cents said:


> Adding ten circuits in a house isn’t a side job. Changing a fixture for grandma is a side job.
> 
> Sometimes a job like this is better off left until they do bigger renovations. Even if they’re just planning to paint, it’s the opportunity to cut open walls and patch and paint. It’s just as easy, sometimes easier, to cut out big sections of drywall. If they plan on replacing flooring you can cut out subfloor.
> 
> Like Hack says, if it’s ten circuits, find a place for a sub.
> 
> The OP is new at this and this isn’t a good first job. There’s no shame in walking away. You gotta start small.


The homeowner is putting new drywall and renovating the whole house.. so I'm having to add the required amount of circuits n such. I'd have to update the main service to add a sub and I don't think the homeowner wants all that. The homeowner happens to be family too so I'm not wanting to raise this bill on her.

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## eddy current

10 circuits? Here you would require updating the smoke detectors on a rewire of that size. Your pretty much re wiring the whole place other than the stove and dryer?


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## HackWork

Why would you have to upgrade the service when adding a sub panel but not upgrade it when adding those same exact 10 circuits to the main panel?

By the way, adding a sub panel in this situation would lower the cost, not raise it.


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## JakeDaSnake1737

eddy current said:


> 10 circuits? Here you would require updating the smoke detectors on a rewire of that size. Your pretty much re wiring the whole place other than the stove and dryer?


She says that the Smokies are grandfathered in so we don't have to update them. It's not exactly 10 but like I said no 12 wire in the whole house, 4 in the kitchen, 1 or 2 for the bathrooms, garage. 

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## JakeDaSnake1737

HackWork said:


> Why would you have to upgrade the service when adding a sub panel but not upgrade it when adding those same exact 10 circuits to the main panel?
> 
> By the way, adding a sub panel in this situation would lower the cost, not raise it.


Shouldn't I have a 200amp main panel just in case they want to add after I put the sub in?

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## HackWork

JakeDaSnake1737 said:


> Shouldn't I have a 200amp main panel just in case they want to add after I put the sub in?
> 
> Sent from my LM-X410(FG) using Tapatalk


That's not the way it works. 

It doesn't matter if you have only 1 main panel, or if you have a main panel and 15 sub panels branched off of it. The load is the load.


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## CTshockhazard

JakeDaSnake1737 said:


> Homeowner doesn't want PVC on side of house





JakeDaSnake1737 said:


> The homeowner is putting new drywall and renovating the whole house..





I wouldn't be snaking much, if anything. :vs_wave:


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## 99cents

This guy sounds like a moonlighting first year apprentice. I’m done with this one.


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## JakeDaSnake1737

HackWork said:


> That's not the way it works.
> 
> It doesn't matter if you have only 1 main panel, or if you have a main panel and 15 sub panels branched off of it. The load is the load.


Right, I understand that. Either I'm miscommunicating or you're misunderstanding.. either way, I think I'm all figured out. I appreciate the tips n tricks n such. I feel like i might owe some wages 

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## HackWork

JakeDaSnake1737 said:


> Right, I understand that. Either I'm miscommunicating or you're misunderstanding.. either way, I think I'm all figured out.


I am curious why you would have to upgrade the service if you installed a subpanel for those 10 circuits but not if you brought those 10 circuits into the main panel.


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## sbrn33

I can't put into words how much I love this thread.


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## MikeFL

JakeDaSnake1737 said:


> Right, I understand that. *Either I'm miscommunicating or you're misunderstanding.*. either way, I think I'm all figured out. I appreciate the tips n tricks n such. I feel like i might owe some wages
> 
> Sent from my LM-X410(FG) using Tapatalk


The duty to communicate effectively lies upon the communicator. 

If he's "misunderstanding" you are indeed "miscommunicating".


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## telsa

MikeFL said:


> The duty to communicate effectively lies upon the communicator.
> 
> If he's "misunderstanding" you are indeed "miscommunicating".


Also known as keyboard drool.


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## JakeDaSnake1737

Yeah so I'm almost done, I just need to know if I am allowed to junction the existing range home run? 

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## B-Nabs

JakeDaSnake1737 said:


> Yeah so I'm almost done, I just need to know if I am allowed to junction the existing range home run?
> 
> Sent from my LM-X410(FG) using Tapatalk


Why wouldn't you be? 

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## HackWork

JakeDaSnake1737 said:


> Yeah so I'm almost done, I just need to know if I am allowed to junction the existing range home run?
> 
> Sent from my LM-X410(FG) using Tapatalk


Surely. Just do it right because a lot of current will pass thru these splices. They make nice little tiny splitbolts that work well. Wrap them up good and make sure they are shaped into the box so that they aren't touching anything.


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## JakeDaSnake1737

B-Nabs said:


> Why wouldn't you be?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


It just seems like a lot...

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## JakeDaSnake1737

HackWork said:


> Surely. Just do it right because a lot of current will pass thru these splices. They make nice little tiny splitbolts that work well. Wrap them up good and make sure they are shaped into the box so that they aren't touching anything.


That's what I was thinking, thought maybe it was too much to splice. Does any box work or does it need to be specific? Thanks for your help.

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## HackWork

JakeDaSnake1737 said:


> That's what I was thinking, thought maybe it was too much to splice. Does any box work or does it need to be specific? Thanks for your help.
> 
> Sent from my LM-X410(FG) using Tapatalk


You can splice any size. 

A deep 4-11/16" will work fine, but you can go bigger if it makes you more comfortable.


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## JakeDaSnake1737

HackWork said:


> You can splice any size.
> 
> A deep 4-11/16" will work fine, but you can go bigger if it makes you more comfortable.


Can I slap it in a nail on 2 gang with a cover? Wire nuts and a **** load of tape is sufficient or no? 

Side note; forgot about the hood fan.... Does it need a dedicated? Or can I pull power from the micro or something like that? 

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## HackWork

JakeDaSnake1737 said:


> Can I slap it in a nail on 2 gang with a cover? Wire nuts and a **** load of tape is sufficient or no?


 What size wire is it? Aluminum or copper? Are your wirenuts rated for that wire? Are the KO's in the 2-gang rated for that size cable? Is a 4-11/16's that much more? The answer to your question is: maybe.



> Side note; forgot about the hood fan.... Does it need a dedicated? Or can I pull power from the micro or something like that?


 Tell us the code article that you find covering this and what you think you have to do.

Hint: Is it hardwired or cord&plug connected?


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## 460 Delta

HackWork said:


> Surely. Just do it right because a lot of current will pass thru these splices. They make nice little tiny splitbolts that work well. Wrap them up good and make sure they are shaped into the box so that they aren't touching anything.


Wouldn't a polaris style connector work better? I use kearneys and they are a pain, first getting them tight,turn and tap turn and tap, then the cambric and rubber then the 33. I resisted for a long time using the polaris style on connections but now I use them when I can. About the only time I use kearneys is to tap feed wires in a trough and board situation. Just a thought.


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## HackWork

460 Delta said:


> Wouldn't a polaris style connector work better?


 Sure, but expensive. 



> I use kearneys and they are a pain, first getting them tight,turn and tap turn and tap,


 I use a combination wrench and a nut driver to tighten them. I never had to tap them, just tighten and done. This is only #4-6 wire.



> then the cambric and rubber then the 33.


 I just tape them. What's the point of all the other stuff when you can just add more layers of regular tape? If you shape them into the box so that the spice is floating and not touching the box or the other splices, the insulation isn't doing much of anything.



> I resisted for a long time using the polaris style on connections but now I use them when I can. About the only time I use kearneys is to tap feed wires in a trough and board situation. Just a thought.


I hear ya. I definitely do. What you are saying is the reason why I use Lever Nuts so often instead of wirenuts. 

But in this situation, I would still use the splitbolts.


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## 460 Delta

HackWork said:


> Sure, but expensive.
> 
> I use a combination wrench and a nut driver to tighten them. I never had to tap them, just tighten and done. This is only #4-6 wire.
> 
> I just tape them. What's the point of all the other stuff when you can just add more layers of regular tape? If you shape them into the box so that the spice is floating and not touching the box or the other splices, the insulation isn't doing much of anything.
> 
> 
> I hear ya. I definitely do. What you are saying is the reason why I use Lever Nuts so often instead of wirenuts.
> 
> But in this situation, I would still use the splitbolts.


I'm curious what the price differential is between a kearney and a polaris connector? I'm industrial,so price isn't the concern that resi contractors have to consider. The multi layers of insulation are a industrial thing I suppose, I just wouldn't be able to do it with just 33+. I believe you did industrial years back so you understand.


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## HackWork

460 Delta said:


> I'm curious what the price differential is between a kearney and a polaris connector?


 Not sure, but any time I have looked at the prices of Polaris or even the cheaper brands like it I have been shocked.

Ultimately they are just one of these:









But with the rubber coating they charge many times more.

Both of those two T&B Blackburn connectors pictured above cost about $2.50 each at Home Depot. I would normally use those in this application, but I find having both conductors going into the connector on the same side makes it easier to fold them into a small box, which is why I recommended the splitbolt.



> I'm industrial,so price isn't the concern that resi contractors have to consider. The multi layers of insulation are a industrial thing I suppose, I just wouldn't be able to do it with just 33+. I believe you did industrial years back so you understand.


 Yup. It depends on the application, who is making the specs, and who is paying for it.


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## 99cents

Since when did this site become a tutorial for moonlighting apprentices with dumb questions?


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