# over head residential service riser



## Tonedeaf (Nov 26, 2012)

if the service riser is inside the building it needs to be either heavy wall conduit or needs to be fire rated somehow. I have run into this situation many times when doing renovations on town homes when they remove the front brick of the house and I ran the service riser inside before they re-brick the front.


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## mofos be cray (Nov 14, 2016)

In canada the service mast or service riser must not be in the building. P.S knight said that that rule was enacted to prevent people in grow ops from cutting into the pipe to steal power before the meter. Which happened a lot here.
Furthermore we do have rule that states that the length of unfused wiring in a resi building must be as short as is practicable and the 5 ft has been sort of the guideline. That rule is to prevent miles of cable being run that is protected only by the fusing at the poco xformer which is servicing multiple residences.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I don’t understand how you could have a service riser in the wall without a disconnect up at the roof.


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## RIP E Solutions (Jul 10, 2020)

mofos be cray said:


> In canada the service mast or service riser must not be in the building. P.S knight said that that rule was enacted to prevent people in grow ops from cutting into the pipe to steal power before the meter. Which happened a lot here.
> Furthermore we do have rule that states that the length of unfused wiring in a resi building must be as short as is practicable and the 5 ft has been sort of the guideline. That rule is to prevent miles of cable being run that is protected only by the fusing at the poco xformer which is servicing multiple residences.


Where can I find the specific code requirements that speak to this issue


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

RIP E Solutions said:


> Where can I find the specific code requirements that speak to this issue


Are you in Canadia?


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## mofos be cray (Nov 14, 2016)

RIP E Solutions said:


> mofos be cray said:
> 
> 
> > In canada the service mast or service riser must not be in the building. P.S knight said that that rule was enacted to prevent people in grow ops from cutting into the pipe to steal power before the meter. Which happened a lot here.
> ...


6-206, appendix B, 6-208


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## RIP E Solutions (Jul 10, 2020)

I am in Coure d Alene, Idaho


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## HertzHound (Jan 22, 2019)

Unless it was a local amendment, the 5’ rule was just a made up allowance to have service entrance conductors inside the house from meter to panel/disconnect. The code wording was just “As soon as it enters the building”, or something like that. 

No that you have to have a disconnect outside, is the 5th rule still valid?

I know in Washington state and possibly others they allow the mast inside the walls. I know here in the north east it would be a violation to do what your doing.


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## varmit (Apr 19, 2009)

Where is the meter in this scenario?

From the OP, you seem to say that you are going directly from the service drop to the panel. Is there CT metering?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

varmit said:


> Where is the meter in this scenario?
> 
> From the OP, you seem to say that you are going directly from the service drop to the panel. Is there CT metering?


When he said "service panel", I think he is talking about those all-in-one meter/panel combo thingies. That is what I usually see recessed into the wall in the pictures.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

There is no NEC rule other than "as near as practicable" or there shouts. There may be a local rule or utility rule or just something he pulled out of his butt. I know many jurisdictions use 5 or 10 feet as their limit.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Using a combo meter/main solves the problem. Then you can run a cable inside the walls after leaving the outdoor socket/main combo. Because it is now a feeder going to a sub panel, and of course it needs to have an equipment grounding conductor in the cable with the feeder conductors. 

Also another thing- In California it is common for the meter/main to be recessed into the exterior wall. In Hawaii it is not common. It's done once in a blue moon or so, but mostly the box is surface mount. Makes things much easier when doing replacements. But then again, we don't feature all that much in Spanish Architecture with the red clay tiles on the roof and thick stucco on the exterior walls like I see all over the place in California either.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

This thread is timely. I looked at a job yesterday with the riser buried in the wall and the meter peeking out of the siding. I guess that gets replaced. And I get to toss not one but two Stab Lok panels in the dumpster. That will be a good day.


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## varmit (Apr 19, 2009)

HackWork said:


> When he said "service panel", I think he is talking about those all-in-one meter/panel combo thingies. That is what I usually see recessed into the wall in the pictures.


Yep, I was not thinking about a meter/panel combo. You never see such a critter in my area. I don't think that I have even seen a service panel on the outside of a building in this area - other than strip shopping centers. These usually have meters and disconnects, seemingly at random, all over the back walls.


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## JoeSparky (Mar 25, 2010)

99cents said:


> I get to toss not one but two Stab Lok panels in the dumpster. That will be a good day.


When I tear those out, I pull all the breakers out and shatter them individually with a hammer. I don't want anybody trying to reuse or profit from those pieces of shìt.


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## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

99cents said:


> This thread is timely. I looked at a job yesterday with the riser buried in the wall and the meter peeking out of the siding. I guess that gets replaced. And I get to toss not one but two Stab Lok panels in the dumpster. That will be a good day.


There seems to be a lot of those in BC. I never took the time to look at one during construction, but I assume that the wall cavity is filled with concrete. We have tons of them that get buried in the siding; ripped one out not too long ago and had the siding redone. Added about an extra 1.5 hours to the job and had to dance around the siding guy.

Cheers

John


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

They have those silly-looking flush overhead services here too, but I've never dealt with one before. It wouldn't have even occurred to me that there might be some type of local codes/amendments/fire rating issues. Crazy. lain:

As far as that 5ft rule goes, it's not code but our area treats it like it is. Inspectors have verbally said "6ft" to me. I don't question it, I just roll with it. 

Pretty sure the actual code wording is "As soon as it enters the building" or something like that.


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

So, this "inspector" is saying flush mount panels in a residence is non code compliant?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

joebanana said:


> So, this "inspector" is saying flush mount panels in a residence is non code compliant?


It is not NEC compliant unless you put a disconnect on the roof.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

HackWork said:


> It is not NEC compliant unless you put a disconnect on the roof.


But then it is not readily accessible.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

kb1jb1 said:


> But then it is not readily accessible.


So not NEC compliant at all.

I think it's a silly idea to begin with. Do they also put the phone, cable, and fiber lines in the wall?


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

Don't all the guys from California do overhead services through the wall?

I believe Dronai has posted pics before where the service in flush in a wall and the riser is embedded in stucco.


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## ppsh (Jan 2, 2014)




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## MotoGP1199 (Aug 11, 2014)

In California a lot of the overhead risers are in the wall. 2" rigid straight down to a meter/main combo is common for new stuff. Older stuff I've seen as small as 1 1/4" rigid. Definitely no disconnect on the roof.


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## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

That would be a no-go here, unless the wall cavity was filled with concrete I think. That is what many of them look like in BC, so is it a west coast thing?

I can't see that being a cost effective method, so other than "looks" I am not sure what the purpose it serves.

Cheers
John


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

ppsh said:


>


Yep! That's it. 

Look at all those beauties!


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

HackWork said:


> I think it's a silly idea to begin with. Do they also put the phone, cable, and fiber lines in the wall?


or gutter downspouts?? do they look OK because of no wires inside?


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

such as: (I always say that about downspouts and just now noticed example)


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

yes would have looked bad if panel surface mounted::surprise:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Navyguy said:


> That would be a no-go here, unless the wall cavity was filled with concrete I think. That is what many of them look like in BC, so is it a west coast thing?
> 
> I can't see that being a cost effective method, so other than "looks" I am not sure what the purpose it serves.
> 
> ...


I think it's just tradition. The same way as how they put the panel outside the house in the harsh weather, even though it is a very silly thing to do.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

HackWork said:


> I think it's just tradition. The same way as how they put the panel outside the house in the harsh weather, even though it is a very silly thing to do.


There's been talk of that becoming code sometime in the near future. Having the Main disconnecting means outside. That would mean no more back to back services, or basement services like you guys have up North. 

I _think_ the push behind this is coming from the people who deal with life safety and all that. Supposedly so the fire department is able to shut off all power from outside the house. 

Not sure about all the specifics but it's been brought up in some code classes. I wouldn't be surprised if we see it soon. 

I wonder if that will include commercial buildings too....


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MHElectric said:


> There's been talk of that becoming code sometime in the near future. Having the Main disconnecting means outside. That would mean no more back to back services, or basement services like you guys have up North.


 All of that would remain the same, we will just put a disconnect outside. The load center will still be inside in the same place we normally put it.



> I _think_ the push behind this is coming from the people who deal with life safety and all that. Supposedly so the fire department is able to shut off all power from outside the house.
> 
> Not sure about all the specifics but it's been brought up in some code classes. I wouldn't be surprised if we see it soon.
> 
> I wonder if that will include commercial buildings too....


 They say it’s for the firemen, but they can’t substantiate it. It’s just conjecture. In the last thread we spoke about this, I asked for the people advocating it to post any substantiation that a fire fighter wanted to shut the power down but couldn’t do it. No one could come up with anything.

If the fire department wants to shut the power down, they could pull the meter like they always have. The code change is so that the manufacturers can make billions of dollars selling an expensive disconnect for every new service in the country.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

HackWork said:


> All of that would remain the same, we will just put a disconnect outside. The load center will still be inside in the same place we normally put it.


Yeah, that would be fine. 

I really like it when a house has an outside panel and an inside one too. It makes it so much easier when adding circuits. Especially sub-panels, outside circuits and even with inside stuff, sometimes it's easier to come out of the outside panel that the inside one. Just gives you more options. 

The #1 dead giveaway that somebody is a Northern-er is when I'm looking at some project they want on their house and they start complaining about how "somebody put a friking panel on the outside of my house!!!!". :vs_laugh: DEAD GIVEAWAY. That guy probably snubs his nose at burritos and BBQ too. LOL!


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I had burritos for dinner. And now I have a hankering for barbecue. I know where I’m going for lunch tomorrow :biggrin:


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

In San Diego county, I saw PVC conduit coming up through the foundation wall to feed those combination panels in a lot of new houses. Seems wise to require RMC in that application instead of PVC, but what do I know? 

In Arizona they use the same panel but the whole thing is mounted outside, and the riser (OH or UG) is not buried in the wall.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

We do outside services all the time around here. But it's 100% surface mount. The only flush mount services is old stuff from a very short period of time when (I guess???) it became popular for a few years. I'm think somewhere in the 50s-early60's, but I don't know for sure. 

Side note @Hax - what if they make outdoor disconnects mandatory for commercial buildings too???!! That would really put a wrench in things!


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

I am pretty sure I have only done the flush in the exterior wall twice. I lost count of all the houses I ran the service drop surface up the side of the house while using a meter/main, or else down into the ground on the surface to the same type box. It's standard here. And terrific as well.


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