# Recessed lights /no access



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

If you notch the drywall under the joists like this, you won't risk blind drilling into anything important. And this is really easy for the homeowner to patch.


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## zac (May 11, 2009)

HackWork said:


> If you notch the drywall under the joists like this, you won't risk blind drilling into anything important. And this is really easy for the homeowner to patch.
> 
> 
> View attachment 90370


That is terrible! 
Have them patch the holes and do through the joists. Stay within the third ends to make your holes if there no pre-made knockouts. Don't drill blindly through the joists especially if it's a condo. I've had feeders for other homes going through a unit and I would have hit them if drilling blindly. 

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## Dan the electricman (Jan 2, 2011)

I've done a lot of these. You are going to have to cut drywall holes in the walls, and ceiling (see Mechanical DVRs post). You may have to cut holes between the ceiling joists to drill through them, and route your wire to the other cans. I don't risk drilling through existing wiring, or plumbing. I wanna see what's there before I drill. I also drill through the wall header to get wire into the ceiling. 

I use lots of dropcloths, stretch wrap, or builder's paper to collect the dust.

Good luck!


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

zac said:


> That is terrible!
> Have them patch the holes and do through the joists. Stay within the third ends to make your holes if there no pre-made knockouts. Don't drill blindly through the joists especially if it's a condo. I've had feeders for other homes going through a unit and I would have hit them if drilling blindly.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


What I posted is quick, easy, and safe.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

Good info ! This is going to be fun 


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

zac said:


> That is terrible!
> Have them patch the holes and do through the joists. Stay within the third ends to make your holes if there no pre-made knockouts. Don't drill blindly through the joists especially if it's a condo. I've had feeders for other homes going through a unit and I would have hit them if drilling blindly.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


I've avoided that many times by scanning the area with a good quality stud finder and or metal detector.


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## zac (May 11, 2009)

HackWork said:


> What I posted is quick, easy, and safe.


Nothing personal but what you posted is hack imop.

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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

A few things:

Is it a textured ceiling? If so, you can cut and patch but it will always look like a patch job.

If the ceiling is insulated, it might be a little difficult to fish through the insulation. If there is no attic, there might be a waterproof membrane in the ceiling which will cause no end of grief if you penetrate it. If there's a vapour barrier, you need to maintain its integrity (unless you use a gasketed trim, which is kind of sketchy).

Lotus Lights might work. Whatever you do, tread carefully. Sometimes an inspection camera tells you things. I'm not trying to scare you, just be slow and methodical.

Hack's idea sucks. If you're going to do that, at least cut a small notch in the bottom of the joist. It won't hurt anything structurally as long as it's dimensional lumber. If it's an engineered joist, no notches.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

zac said:


> Nothing personal but what you posted is hack imop.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


 People in Chicago say that running Romex is hack. Jackwad thinks running MC is hack and everything should be in EMT.

It's the least amount of damage to the customer's home and it works perfectly fine.


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## jsmart84 (Nov 20, 2011)

Zip wall for dust retention and drop clothes. I was a carpenter in a past life so I normally sell it with crown molding I cut a 2 inch trench along edge of wall and drill my joists then conceal with Sheetrock and the. Put up crown molding.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Well, I guess I am in the minority, but me I cut a whole trench in the ceiling and make my life easy. I doubt the guy patching and painting (not me) would charge much less coming out and fixing eight little holes versus fixing one big trench. In the average size room you might as well paint the whole ceiling and make it look perfect.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Hack's going to sit back and laugh at the twenty comments his dumb photo will get  .


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

I did a tri level lower level in popcorn a week or so ago. I measured, used stud finders, mapped it out on paper PLUS my pencil marks on ceiling, made my cuts and stuck in the extension bits that lock and drilled blindly...mostly blindly, I was able to look through each of my 6" holes. I angled my bits downward to go juuuuust under the round duct work in two of the cavities. But if you're not responsible for the repairs, make nice shaped cuts so you can fish what you need to fish and stick some wood behind sheet rock seams, drill it back and done.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> Hack's going to sit back and laugh at the twenty comments his dumb photo will get  .


It's not a dumb photo, it's how I run Romex across ceilings or laterally across walls.


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## zac (May 11, 2009)

HackWork said:


> It's not a dumb photo, it's how I run Romex across ceilings or laterally across walls.


I'd at least put a nail plate over it. 
10 years later homes sold and customer wants to add lights in between lay out with another electrician. 
I know it's a long shot but still subject to physical damage. 
I'm concerned about saving the customer money and for me that's not the way. 

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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

I'd be concerned on the safety for the poor sob who puts metal thru it.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

zac said:


> I'd at least put a nail plate over it.
> 10 years later homes sold and customer wants to add lights in between lay out with another electrician.
> I know it's a long shot but still subject to physical damage.
> I'm concerned about saving the customer money and for me that's not the way.
> ...


That's way too far fetched. 

Even if that did actually happen, the electrician who did it could fix it. 

People hang pictures with 3"+ nails everyday. Does that make all Romex in the walls subject to physical damage?


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

splatz said:


> Well, I guess I am in the minority, but me I cut a whole trench in the ceiling and make my life easy. I doubt the guy patching and painting (not me) would charge much less coming out and fixing eight little holes versus fixing one big trench. In the average size room you might as well paint the whole ceiling and make it look perfect.


Talk to any rocker // taper -- this is what they want to deal with.

Absolutely true.

The other 'trick' is the pumpkin cut.

If you're putting in cans -- then you KNOW that there is space above to pass your Romex without drilling -- as the standard for condo framing is the OPEN TRUSS.










If there really is no open truss -- a shocker -- THEN you've got headaches -- I mean the rocker has headaches.

It's essential that you dope out where the trusses are... VERY early in the game.

Blue painter's tape comes in handy. 

Remember that condo framers are going to be astoundingly regular with their framing. I'd expect to see 24" O.C. for trusses -- but double check -- as anything is possible.

Turn all of the lights off, and in a darkened room, ascend your ladder with a 'headlamp' on. ( or use a flash light ) You should see the wave of the sheet rock -- and its seams.

Other give-aways: the location of existing work -- especially HVAC ducts and returns.

THEN sketch out the layout.

Poke through the sheetrock with a probe ( angled hanger wire ) to make sure that you're not close upon obstructions.

And so forth.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> It's not a dumb photo, it's how I run Romex across ceilings or laterally across walls.


You need to buy a copy of that book from Home Depot on how to do wiring.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> You need to buy a copy of that book from Home Depot on how to do wiring.


I'll out electrician you any day of the week.


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## zac (May 11, 2009)

No but code doesn't consider that a violation. I also don't know anyone that uses 3" 16 penny nails to hang a picture. they use a Brad nail

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## zac (May 11, 2009)

And if I was the electrician who had to fix the wire...I would tell the homeowner this is hack work and now the price is going to double to fix it! 

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## zac (May 11, 2009)

This thread should be closed! 

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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> I'll out electrician you any day of the week.


If I did that, I wouldn't wait to get run off the job, I would run myself off the job.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

zac said:


> No but code doesn't consider that a violation. I also don't know anyone that uses 3" 16 penny nails to hang a picture. they use a Brad nail
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


I definitely don't agree with the Brad nail thing, but let's look at another item. Homeowners are hanging their TVs on the wall all the time. The mounts come with 3-4" lags. If the homeowner doesn't find the exact center of the stud, they can drill or drive the lag into the wires on the side of the stud.

And isn't hanging a tv in a house a common thing and much more likely to happen than what you mentioned?


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## zac (May 11, 2009)

There are things we can control and things we can't. The method you propose is Diy guy. 

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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

zac said:


> There are things we can control and things we can't. The method you propose is Diy guy.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


No, the method I posted is awesome, profitable, and makes the customer happy.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

I love this.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

Lol, by the way it's a living room with finished second floor bedroom over it.... He wants to start with 6 there and another 20 throughout the first floor after he sees how the living room looks! I priced this job high because I didn't want it  nightmare !


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Majewski said:


> I love this.


Certainly not a boring thread.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

As posted above, the fella is most likely dealing with an open truss.

Otherwise, he is in no position to install can lights in the first place.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

telsa said:


> As posted above, the fella is most likely dealing with an open truss.
> 
> Otherwise, he is in no position to install can lights in the first place.


It's a house with a finished second floor. $50 says there are solid joists.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Lotus lights for the win.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

WronGun said:


> Lol, by the way it's a living room with finished second floor bedroom over it.... He wants to start with 6 there and another 20 throughout the first floor after he sees how the living room looks! I priced this job high because I didn't want it  nightmare !
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


So why are you worried about IC?

Is it carpet upstairs? Pull back the carpet and cut out the subfloor.


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

splatz said:


> Well, I guess I am in the minority, but me I cut a whole trench in the ceiling and make my life easy. I doubt the guy patching and painting (not me) would charge much less coming out and fixing eight little holes versus fixing one big trench. In the average size room you might as well paint the whole ceiling and make it look perfect.


This is what I do. I save the drywall and add strips of wood and screw the drywall back to the ceiling. 
This way allows you to see any wiring, water lines, drains or HVAC duct in the area. 
Prior to cutting the trench, we lay out where they want the cans to go, then probe the ceiling with an offset screwdriver and adjust as needed.
Homeowner is always informed that drywall patching and painting will be an extra before we start the job.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

HackWork said:


> It's a house with a finished second floor. $50 says there are solid joists.


Around here, those would be engineered lumber.

In which case, it gets real touchy where you pop holes... or notch.


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## B-Nabs (Jun 4, 2014)

telsa said:


> As posted above, the fella is most likely dealing with an open truss.
> 
> Otherwise, he is in no position to install can lights in the first place.


That's all well and good Telsa but...



WronGun said:


> Lol, by the way it's a living room with finished second floor bedroom over it.... He wants to start with 6 there and another 20 throughout the first floor after he sees how the living room looks! I priced this job high because I didn't want it  nightmare !
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


So your open truss wizardry is no good here.


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## B-Nabs (Jun 4, 2014)

HackWork said:


> It's not a dumb photo, it's how I earned my ET handle.


FIFY :jester:


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

WronGun said:


> Lol, by the way it's a living room with finished second floor bedroom over it.... He wants to start with 6 there and another 20 throughout the first floor after he sees how the living room looks! I priced this job high because I didn't want it  nightmare !
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I love it, when you price it high to get out, and they pull you back in! lol


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> So why are you worried about IC?
> 
> Is it carpet upstairs? Pull back the carpet and cut out the subfloor.


Now THAT is insane. The amount of work, the amount of damage to the customers house. Wow... 

I would have the holes cut and Romex snaked before you got the triple dresser out of the bedroom upstairs.


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## jsmart84 (Nov 20, 2011)

If you can't do the crown molding yourself sell them on e idea . Adds elegance to a room . I do it myself and find it pretty easy unless it's a old house with plaster walls. My last one was and no corner was perfect. But I accounted for the time consumer,I got multiple cuts to get the bevel and angles right to fit. Only thing I don't do is paint it.


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

WronGun said:


> A little nervous on tomorrow job. Installing recessed lights in a finished living room with no access. Originally 4" IC rated old work cans but just found out these don't exist. So it's either non-IC or 5".... I will be pulling feed from a switched outlet...can anyone offer any tips .... I'm gonna lay out the room with a laser and check my spots with insulation rods.... I have a few specialty tools like a Milwaukee scope and a Flir thermal imager which usually gives me some insight on where the eyes can't see , but I probably will stick to insulation rods.... I've never done a no access recessed job.... How do you guys get up into the ceiling ? I've heard of making a small notch but I don't see how that's possible
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You don't need IC rated between floors normally.

Lithonia makes IC rated 4" remodel cans.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

jsmart84 said:


> If you can't do the crown molding yourself sell them on e idea . Adds elegance to a room . I do it myself and find it pretty easy unless it's a old house with plaster walls. My last one was and no corner was perfect. But I accounted for the time consumer,I got multiple cuts to get the bevel and angles right to fit. Only thing I don't do is paint it.


You mentioned cutting the drywall out and drilling the joists. Most everyone I've seen or talked to about running Romex behind the crown molding just staples it up in the corner and drills a hole in the joist bay where they need it. Then nail the molding right over it.

It would save you a lot of time.


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## jsmart84 (Nov 20, 2011)

Hack , only issue with that is a nail that deflects off a knot into your cable. A small 3 foot feeler but and I'll save my fingers and the worries of a 2.5 inch nail coming out of the gun into the wire. I'm going to hunt down the one I just did . I bought a double sided 12 " miter saw a few years back and a pancake compressor with guns . I can do a simple room like above in about 3 hours caulked and ready for paint.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> Now THAT is insane. The amount of work, the amount of damage to the customers house. Wow...
> 
> I would have the holes cut and Romex snaked before you got the triple dresser out of the bedroom upstairs.


Not insane at all. Customer can hire a couple of college kids to move out the furniture. You go in, cut the bead on the baseboard, pull the baseboard, roll back the carpet and hit the subfloor with your circular saw. Everything's in clear view, no ladder, no ceiling damage. Screw the subfloor pieces back in with some PL400, kick the carpet back in, replace the baseboard. Done. No silly mixture of romex, mud and paint in the ceiling.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> Not insane at all. Customer can hire a couple of college kids to move out the furniture. You go in, cut the bead on the baseboard, pull the baseboard, roll back the carpet and hit the subfloor with your circular saw. Everything's in clear view, no ladder, no ceiling damage. Screw the subfloor pieces back in with some PL400, kick the carpet back in, replace the baseboard. Done. No silly mixture of romex, mud and paint in the ceiling.


Lol, ok.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

jsmart84 said:


> If you can't do the crown molding yourself sell them on e idea . Adds elegance to a room . I do it myself and find it pretty easy unless it's a old house with plaster walls. My last one was and no corner was perfect. But I accounted for the time consumer,I got multiple cuts to get the bevel and angles right to fit. Only thing I don't do is paint it.


You sir do good work! :thumbup:


99cents said:


> Not insane at all. Customer can hire a couple of college kids to move out the furniture. You go in, cut the bead on the baseboard, pull the baseboard, roll back the carpet and hit the subfloor with your circular saw. Everything's in clear view, no ladder, no ceiling damage. Screw the subfloor pieces back in with some PL400, kick the carpet back in, replace the baseboard. Done. No silly mixture of romex, mud and paint in the ceiling.


Hard work but a heck of a lot less pain. Not bad...:thumbup:


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Majewski said:


> Hard work but a heck of a lot less pain. Not bad...:thumbup:


Not hard work, actually, and no blind holes or patching. The only issue is if the original floor was glued and screwed but nobody did that much around here.


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## jsmart84 (Nov 20, 2011)

My issue with the carpet is to get it back in its possible you need the tool that you hit with your knee. I like tools so if that's what the customer wants to pay for I'm game.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

I don't like hitting carpet with my knees. I'd do it for a price but I wouldn't get hired for said price lol.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

jsmart84 said:


> My issue with the carpet is to get it back in its possible you need the tool that you hit with your knee. I like tools so if that's what the customer wants to pay for I'm game.


Sometimes these jobs are best left until there are other upgrades being done. If they're replacing flooring on the upper floor, that's a great time do do your lighting on the main floor.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

jsmart84 said:


> My issue with the carpet is to get it back in its possible you need the tool that you hit with your knee. I like tools so if that's what the customer wants to pay for I'm game.


Recently we had to stand on the customer's bed (their idea) because they didn't want to move it out of the room for us to install recessed lights.

I can't see any customer wanting to move all their furniture and bed out of their bedroom and have their carpet pulled up, just to avoid having 5/8"x3" notches cut in the drywall ceiling below.

Making them move everything out of bedrooms, pulling up carpet, cutting the floor, reinstalling carpet (probably not as well as it was) is the exact opposite of customer service.


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## jsmart84 (Nov 20, 2011)

Another this one was plaster and sucked to get stuff straight


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## jsmart84 (Nov 20, 2011)

A before


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

How long did that take you once your materials were onsite and prepping was done?


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> Recently we had to stand on the customer's bed (their idea) because they didn't want to move it out of the room for us to install recessed lights.
> 
> I can't see any customer wanting to move all their furniture and bed out of their bedroom and have their carpet pulled up, just to avoid having 5/8"x3" notches cut in the drywall ceiling below.
> 
> Making them move everything out of bedrooms, pulling up carpet, cutting the floor, reinstalling carpet (probably not as well as it was) is the exact opposite of customer service.


You're only cutting a channel across the joists. You can fish it the other way. No need to empty the entire room.

How do your patch jobs look on a textured ceiling?


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## jsmart84 (Nov 20, 2011)

The first one I posted about 3 hours for crown molding, wiring cans etc. the plaster one I just posted was closer to 5 but it was a few more cans and 3 ways and plaster didn't like the nails on top of non perfect corners


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

I am so much slower than you. You're more experienced than I am probably in both wiring and carpentry! Do you work alone?


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## SummitElectric1 (Aug 8, 2016)

WronGun said:


> A little nervous on tomorrow job. Installing recessed lights in a finished living room with no access. *Originally 4" IC rated old work cans but just found out these don't exist.* So it's either non-IC or 5".... I will be pulling feed from a switched outlet...can anyone offer any tips .... I'm gonna lay out the room with a laser and check my spots with insulation rods.... I have a few specialty tools like a Milwaukee scope and a Flir thermal imager which usually gives me some insight on where the eyes can't see , but I probably will stick to insulation rods.... I've never done a no access recessed job.... How do you guys get up into the ceiling ? I've heard of making a small notch but I don't see how that's possible
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


4" IC old work cans do exist...

http://www.lampsplus.com/products/4-inch-ic-or-non-ic-rated-remodeling-recessed-housing__6d028.html

These aren't the same product that I use so I don't offer any endorsement of their quality or ease of installation. However, I can tell you that 4" IC-rated old work cans are definitely available. Ask your local supply house to order some for you.

When installing recessed cans with no access remember that selling more cans gives you more holes in the ceiling to work through. Sometimes doing 8 cans instead of 6 can help you avoid cutting unnecessary holes. This can make your job easier and more profitable and offsets the repair cost for the homeowner.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Regardless of how you get the cable there, I would hit this job with Lotus Lights for sure.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

What do you spend on em 99?


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## B-Nabs (Jun 4, 2014)

99cents said:


> Regardless of how you get the cable there, I would hit this job with Lotus Lights for sure.


This is going to sound weird but is illustrative of your vocal enthusiasm towards them: whenever I see Lotus Lights at the SH you come to mind.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

B-Nabs said:


> This is going to sound weird but is illustrative of your vocal enthusiasm towards them: whenever I see Lotus Lights at the SH you come to mind.


ME TOO! lol


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> Regardless of how you get the cable there, I would hit this job with Lotus Lights for sure.


Lotus lights cost too much.

I can buy a standard recessed light for $10 and an LED trim for $10. That will give the customer more functionality and won't screw them if the LED fails.


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## B-Nabs (Jun 4, 2014)

HackWork said:


> Lotus lights cost too much.
> 
> I can buy a standard recessed light for $10 and an LED trim for $10. That will give the customer more functionality and won't screw them if the LED fails.


Holy f*** you guys can buy LED trims for $10? Man we are getting hosed.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

I can find 2 packs for 19.99 but only 1 color range.


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

Remodel can $7, airtight trim $4.25, LED bulb $5


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## PlugsAndLights (Jan 19, 2016)

Posts 2 and 13 by Mech and Splatz are the ones I'd look at. To add few 
(obvious?) details: 
-use lotus lights or in my case:http://www.ndrelectric.com/_cat/razor-series-led--en.php
-lay out your grid and hole saw all the locations - GO THROUGH AS LITTLE AS
POSSIBLE - YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT MIGHT BE THERE.
-check for strapping - if it's strapped things just got easier cuz you can
go across joist spaces by going under them between the straps
-put in as many wire jumper segments as you can without further
drywall cuts, then trench for the rest. 
Last one I did needed no trenches, but, I didn't have to get into the wall as 
I was replacing a ceiling light so I already had a switched wire up there. 
On a side note, I recently spent weeks fixing a floor that had been cut up 
years ago by an electrician when he/she/they replaced knob and tube.
P&L


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Majewski said:


> What do you spend on em 99?


47 bucks Canadian. Halo remodel can with All Pro LED trim, 45 bucks. No contest, Lotus wins. You can buy Lotus knock offs cheaper.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

B-Nabs said:


> Holy f*** you guys can buy LED trims for $10? Man we are getting hosed.


Prices are dropping. Bought an LED fixture at Home Creepo yesterday to throw into a closet for fifteen bucks.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> Lotus lights cost too much.
> 
> I can buy a standard recessed light for $10 and an LED trim for $10. That will give the customer more functionality and won't screw them if the LED fails.


One minute job to change out a Lotus light, not that I have ever had a defective one.

Why would you screw around with remodel cans? Nice straight lines with Lotus Lights, no worries about height, joists don't get in the way...

If you have an open ceiling, cans are still viable.


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## daks (Jan 16, 2013)

99cents said:


> Not insane at all. Customer can hire a couple of college kids to move out the furniture. You go in, cut the bead on the baseboard, pull the baseboard, roll back the carpet and hit the subfloor with your circular saw. Everything's in clear view, no ladder, no ceiling damage. Screw the subfloor pieces back in with some PL400, kick the carpet back in, replace the baseboard. Done. No silly mixture of romex, mud and paint in the ceiling.


 Done that trick quite a few times! I pull up a floor vent and then peek under the carpet.
Quite often though I end up brightening up the customer's day when I tell them that there is hardwood under the carpet. 

Another trick, is if the ceiling is textured in that room, sometimes the hallway or room next to is is not textured and I'll cut access holes there and just do longer wire runs.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Do you do the patchwork on the flat ceiling?


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## daks (Jan 16, 2013)

Majewski said:


> Do you do the patchwork on the flat ceiling?


 I've done it for family and friends and customers I really like.
But normally don't. Even though when I do it, it comes out better that when the "pros" do it in most cases, I hate mudding and painting.

I pumpkin cut out all holes using a hackzawl, then when I put it back I put some 1/4 or 1/2" wood across the back of the seem. Screw into that, cut off any excess or raggity paper around the cut. Then use a 4" drywallers knife to spread Sched 20 mud into the gap, place drywall tape (paper not the fiberglass) over the sched 20 that has been wet in the sched 20. I make sure that is perfectly smooth so it won't need to be sanded. Go trim out the lights (sched 20 will be dry in 20-30 mins) then use a 8" cement trowel to skim over the spackle (finishing compound). Sand with 220 the next day and prime and paint. Easy peasy but I hate it.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

I only keep 3m quick patch in the van. I offer the patching but if they want perfect or a texture/paint, it's gotta be extra. I am always happy to do what's asked but happier to refer someone.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Majewski said:


> I only keep 3m quick patch in the van. I offer the patching but if they want perfect or a texture/paint, it's gotta be extra. I am always happy to do what's asked but happier to refer someone.


Always have a good drywall guy on speed dial.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Who was it on here with the story about the sparky who kept a old drunk mudder on his payroll and drove him to jobs. He would sleep or drink in the vehicle and when called in, do his work and it would be excellent.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> One minute job to change out a Lotus light, not that I have ever had a defective one.
> 
> Why would you screw around with remodel cans? Nice straight lines with Lotus Lights, no worries about height, joists don't get in the way...
> 
> If you have an open ceiling, cans are still viable.


Lotus lights are fake recessed lights. They cost over twice as much, and they limit what the customer can do.

I want to like them, but can't.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

drspec said:


> Remodel can $7, airtight trim $4.25, LED bulb $5


Exactly, or switch out the trim and lamp for an LED trim and it's still less than half the price of Lotus.

The cheapest I can get any Lotus light is $55 each (plus shipping or tax). That's $35 per light more than conventional. I need to make a markup, let's say a small one to $45.

How do I sell the customer on paying $45 more per light?

Do I tell them that the recessed light they are asking for isn't actually recessed?
Do I tell them that there is no user changeable lamp or LED and they have to pay me an expensive service call fee if anything at all ever happens?
Do I tell them that they are stuck with exactly what they have and can't change without it costing a lot more money?

A standard recessed light gives them much more functionality. They can use LED trims which the end result is very much like the Lotus. Or they can use a standard trim and LED lamp. Or they can use a typical incandescent lamp. Or they can throw in one of those fancy trims, there are thousands of them. 

Lotus lights look cool and they can save you a couple minutes of installation time. But I just can't see anyone opting for them until the price is reasonable.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> Exactly, or switch out the trim and lamp for an LED trim and it's still less than half the price of Lotus.
> 
> The cheapest I can get any Lotus light is $55 each (plus shipping or tax). That's $35 per light more than conventional. I need to make a markup, let's say a small one to $45.
> 
> ...


You're getting screwed on Lotus Lights. Somebody in Canada is selling knockoffs for $25.00. That's $19.00 US. Wait for the price to go down and you will change your mind.

I had an interior designer who didn't like the flat appearance of Lotus Lights. She thought they looked like shower lights. Even she changed her mind after she saw how easy they were to install and customer resistance was minimal. Of course, if you're matching existing like a baffle trim, that's a different story.

You don't have to worry about vapour barriers but we do. I have been able to cut the 4" hole for the Lotus lights with a hole saw and no damage to the vapour barrier except the pilot hole. For us, that's a huge bonus.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

I don't know why you're concerned with fixture cost, Hack. When you pull the wire below the joist and fill the hole with toothpaste, you're ahead of the game already.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Lmao! I hadn't used tooth paste for holes in 15years!


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> I don't know why you're concerned with fixture cost, Hack. When you pull the wire below the joist and fill the hole with toothpaste, you're ahead of the game already.


Answer my previous question, why should the customer spend $45 more on each light? 

If I thought I could get $45 more for each light, I would charge it and still put in the recessed housing since it's a better overall job.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

I already told you, when Lotus Lights go down in price, you will use them. Unless you're stuck in the 80's.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> I already told you, when Lotus Lights go down in price, you will use them. Unless you're stuck in the 80's.


 So you don't want to answer?


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

I did.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> I did.


Where did you answer how I could upsell the customer on the Lotus? What reasons I could use to get them to spend $45 more per light?


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## B-Nabs (Jun 4, 2014)

Seems like he did answer: if you weren't getting boned on the price of Lotus lights, they wouldn't be $45 more per light.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

You shouldn't post before you have your morning Twinkie, Hack. You're paying twenty bucks for a can, trim and bulb. Lotus knock offs are selling in Canada for the equivalent of $19.00 US. Wait for the price to go down and they become a no brainer for you.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

B-Nabs said:


> Seems like he did answer: if you weren't getting boned on the price of Lotus lights, they wouldn't be $45 more per light.


That's the cheapest that they can be found. If you could find them cheaper, I would appreciate it.

Until then, that is what they cost. So 99cents continually promoting Lotus above all else doesn't make too much sense, unless he can explain how he is upselling them, which is all I am asking for...?

In Lotus heaven (Canada) they are still much more expensive then a recessed housing, baffle trim, and lamp.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> You shouldn't post before you have your morning Twinkie, Hack.


 Why do you always post this cop-out? This is like the 15th time. Is my question really that hard? I simply asked how you upsell the Lotus, I would think you would be all over that question. 



> You're paying twenty bucks for a can, trim and bulb. Lotus knock offs are selling in Canada for the equivalent of $19.00 US. Wait for the price to go down and they become a no brainer for you.


Now you are talking about knock-offs? That's a whole different story. 

I probably wouldn't install knock-offs at all, especially because I would be stuck coming back to replace the ones that failed.

I've been installed recessed lights for 17+ years. It's really, really easy. Finding the joists isn't a big deal, I have to do it to run the wire anyway. I will probably stick with standard recessed light trims since it will allow a better looking LED trim than the Lotus, and much, much more. It's providing a better service for the customer in a way that they can really understand.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Jeebus, Hack. My math here says a genuine Lotus and a Halo can with an Allpro trim are virtually the same price. I already said that. When you get to the same point, you will have a decision to make.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

I'm not arguing with you, Hack. My days of fooling around with spring clips and a JB stuck on an arm that runs interference with duct work and plumber's pipes are over. If you make remodel cans work, that's great.

If you have never used knock offs, you have never used a Leviton device. They have never had an original idea in their corporate history. That's their business model.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

This thread made me cancel the job, I want absolutely nothing to do with it... In 4 yrs this is the first time I pass on a job..no thanks 

The customer had at least 15-20 in depth questions he emailed to me before starting the job, I answered them but that was also another deciding factor of blowing this one off. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

I'll do it  .


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

WronGun said:


> This thread made me cancel the job, I want absolutely nothing to do with it... In 4 yrs this is the first time I pass on a job..no thanks
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


A few pages ago you were happy to do it!

Listen to me, I am the only one here who can help you.

Take a piece of metal snake and cut off about 21". This piece of snake should have a nice curve to it. Make a tight little loop on one end of it. Measure 16" and put a piece of white tape to mark it. This is now your joist stick and sewing needle.

Find a joist, I usually use a magnet to find the screws. Now use the snake to find the next one, and the next one, etc. Put a piece of painters tape on the joist, they make 1.5" which is perfect.

Now that you know where the joists are you can start the layout. Then make the cuts. First you will drill a 1/4" hole and stick a piece of wire in to make sure there is room, then you drill out the hole with your grit holesaw and dustbowl.

Once they are all drilled, it's time to run the wire. This is where the joist markings come in real handy. Take the piece of snake and tape it to the end of 14-2 romex, the snake is the needle. Now go and stick your jabsaw in on each side of the joist and twist it around, you only need a 1/2" hole. Then cut the drywall across the joist with a utility knife between the two holes. Basically, you are connecting the holes and making a nice slot.

Now do the same on the next joist, when that is done you will insert the sewing needle that you make (piece of snake taped to romex) to go from the hole next to the first stud to the hole next to the second. This method works even if there is insulation, just try to get the snake underneath the paper facing vapor barrier. Now move down and cut the next joist and repeat with the sewing needle.

In a few minutes you will be across the ceiling to where you need to be. Pull the romex tight, hammer in a staple if it droops down at all. Then tell the customer about how great the 5 minute Easy Sand hot mud works. Tell them to smear some hot mud on it the first day, then come back with normal spackle for a second and possibly third coat. Sand in between. It takes 5 minutes and anyone can patch these holes quickly and easily.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

WronGun said:


> This thread made me cancel the job, I want absolutely nothing to do with it... In 4 yrs this is the first time I pass on a job..no thanks
> 
> The customer had at least 15-20 in depth questions he emailed to me before starting the job, I answered them but that was also another deciding factor of blowing this one off.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


What made you give up the job? Did you not have a plan in mind to accomplish the job before you posted here?


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## zac (May 11, 2009)

He didn't want to hack it up. 

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

zac said:


> He didn't want to hack it up.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


I just don't see how the thread derailed his job. one way or another some sheetrock needs to give way for a wiring path. This is like resi 101 in my mind.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

For what I thought was a high price, seems very low now... I can most definitely do and get this job done I just don't think I want to get into it. I've done this dozens of times with access, but the thought of doing this in a newer finished home without access doesn't appeal to me , lol....My Townhouse is brand new and even though id like recessed lights in some of the lower level rooms I'm not gonna get into cutting everything up. I will say this thread most definitely helped , and I do have a much better understanding now how to do this job

A few mistakes I made :

not charging enough for no access installation 

Not factoring in dust prevention, furniture movement, cleanup costs, that will go into this type of work




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

WronGun said:


> For what I thought was a high price, seems very low now... I can most definitely do and get this job done I just don't think I want too! I've done this dozens of times with access, but the thought of doing this in a newer finished home without access doesn't appeal to me , lol....My Townhouse is brand new and even though id like recessed lights in some of the lower level rooms I'm not gonna get into cutting everything up. I will say this thread most definitely helped , and I do have a much better understanding now how to do this job
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Cutting sheetrock shouldn't scare anyone. It's like the paperwork after a bathroom run, just a necessary basic part of the project. I did like the idea of the trough along the wall to be covered by crown molding, I've never done that but it sounds promising. 

I normally cut my holes after mapping out the ceiling with a quality stud finder and metal detector. Then drill can to can and pull wire back with the drill bit. Having insulation present would change that plan and a sheetrock cut out would be necessary. 

Sheetrock repairs and painting need to be discussed with the HO and an agreement reached. 

My own place would have been done already. Better to learn on your own property than on a paid job.


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

This is one I did recently. Removed existing fluorescent and added 6 can lights. Then we installed 2 pendants on a new switch.
All cutting was done in the ceiling and homeowner was responsible for final patch/paint.
We do these types of jobs all the time.
Don't be scared of cutting drywall. Get in. Get done. Get paid. Repeat.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

I do like the crown molding idea too, that's a great sell also .. If I could do it I most definitely would try to sell that with the job.... Maybe that will be my next home project . ALSO , I will be seeking this type of no access job now just to get my feet wet....I have a much better idea what's involved and how to price it. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

WronGun said:


> I do like the crown molding idea too, that's a great sell also .. If I could do it I most definitely would try to sell that with the job.... Maybe that will be my next home project . ALSO , I will be seeking this type of no access job now just to get my feet wet....I have a much better idea what's involved and how to price it.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Why not try and get this job back and rather than thinking of it as a losing proposition, think of it as a paid learning experience?


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Majewski said:


> Lmao! I hadn't used tooth paste for holes in 15years!


Colgate......wall patch in a tube. Military guys have been doing that in base housing for 'nail holes' forever. Long before the advent of Home Depot.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

A query list that went on forever would put me off... of the customer -- much more than the job, per se.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

I'm going for it .... I'm going to use non IC 4" cans ...and go for it ... Heading to job now and will inform customer for 5th time make sure he has a good wall/ceiling guy


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

WronGun said:


> I'm going for it .... I'm going to use non IC 4" cans ...and go for it ... Heading to job now and will inform customer for 5th time make sure he has a good wall/ceiling guy
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Glad to hear it.

When taking on something different earning a wage and gaining more experience can be well worth the time. More bullets in the magazine for future use.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Pick this up from your local hole depot: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Milwaukee-4-in-Recessed-Light-Installation-Kit-49-56-0300/202327774

You should also order a dust bowl from Amazon, they can have it to you in two days.

Dust free hole making.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

Yes I have that hole saw , also have the dust plate that goes with it! I also have the recessed light cutting kit that I've never used 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

WronGun said:


> This thread made me cancel the job, I want absolutely nothing to do with it... In 4 yrs this is the first time I pass on a job..no thanks
> 
> The customer had at least 15-20 in depth questions he emailed to me before starting the job, I answered them but that was also another deciding factor of blowing this one off.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Forward that chit to me, I'll make a life long client out of him!


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

This ceiling is wide open , turned out to be easy breezy! Thanks y'all !


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

If he's paying for the patch, laser out the ceiling and cut your channel out with a circular saw. Big cuts are just as easy to patch as small ones.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

WronGun said:


> This ceiling is wide open , turned out to be easy breezy! Thanks y'all !
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Huh??


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

99cents said:


> Huh??




I'm here laying out the job, the ceiling is wide open very easy. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

WronGun said:


> This ceiling is wide open , turned out to be easy breezy! Thanks y'all !
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The fear was for naught. Good luck with a smooth install.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

99cents said:


> If he's paying for the patch, laser out the ceiling and cut your channel out with a circular saw. Big cuts are just as easy to patch as small ones.


Best long distance sheetrock cut maker that was ever invented:


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

I have the dremel job max saw or whatever it's called. Only used it a few
Times though lol.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

WronGun said:


> This ceiling is wide open , turned out to be easy breezy! Thanks y'all !
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Oh, my!


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

So I'm not getting this job now? What a jip! Lol glad you got lucky!


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

Instead of going from the switched outlet I will be adding a switch to the existing 2 gang box which lays right in front of a closet... So I'm gonna try to get up into the ceiling from the closet behind the switchbox where I can make larger holes 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

WronGun said:


> Instead of going from the switched outlet I will be adding a switch to the existing 2 gang box which lays right in front of a closet... So I'm gonna try to get up into the ceiling from the closet behind the switchbox where I can make larger holes
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


In that situation, cut a nice big hole inside the closet and use an access panel to close it up.

I keep a couple of these on the truck: http://www.homedepot.com/p/14-in-x-14-in-Spring-Loaded-Plastic-Access-Panel-APS14/204509831


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

I think the customer will have it patched up but I really like that access panel.. What department is that In? I remember going there on a few occasions looking for something similar with no luck 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

WronGun said:


> I think the customer will have it patched up but I really like that access panel.. What department is that In? I remember going there on a few occasions looking for something similar with no luck
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If you put your local Home Depot in it will tell you which aisle and bay it's in. I order stuff like that directly from the website.

Even if the customer will have it patched up, it still looks better for you to leave them with a nice, clean, finished product. It's about perception, these little things are what the customers notice, they don't give a damn about the electric.

A lot of times when I have to make a hole or two to snake wire in and I know the customer will be patching it, I will still cover it with a blank plate (either a round plate for the ceiling or 2 gang plate for the wall). This will give them a nicer look until they get around to patching it, and it won't leave them with an ugly hole for the air, dust, and insects to come thru.

And you know what happens? I go back there a year later to do another job and I see the blank plate is still there :laughing:


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

We usually use a 1 gang or a 2 gang opening and then install the appropriate box and cover


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> We usually use a 1 gang or a 2 gang opening and then install the appropriate box and cover


I use low voltage rings to hold the covers on, I forgot to mention that.


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## zac (May 11, 2009)

I just reattach what ever sized piece I cut out with backing. I'm finished cutting 4 " holes to fish wire. A patch is a patch. But I agree with you guys on covering the hole up. I've used cardboard before. 

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## shocksystems (Apr 25, 2009)

jsmart84 said:


> Another this one was plaster and sucked to get stuff straight


Installing crown molding. That looks great and I am sure that the homeowner loves it (seriously). I would never even contemplate doing that because it is so far out of my area of expertise and notoriously a pain in the neck to cut accurately and get it to look perfect. I am surprised that you can do this efficiently and profitably as an electrician, how many did it take to get this process down? Do you bump up the price considerably for this work?

Cheers!

Jim


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

HackWork said:


> I use low voltage rings to hold the covers on, I forgot to mention that.


We do that also but sometimes we don't have them on the truck


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## jsmart84 (Nov 20, 2011)

Shock, I'd change anywhere from 550 to 1000 just for crown installation for a room depending on size and size of molding and normally I'll put a labor only charge in there and then a estimate with pictures of one or two varieties of molding. I did much of my house old school way with a coping saw, what I nightmare. 

Since I was young I watched my grandfather do a lot and watched a lot of high end carpenters. Really comes down to having the right saw(double miter) . It's a great up sell because people want the wow factor. 

I will patch ceilings too but for customers I acquired that ask that live out 20 minutes or more I advise getting someone. My close customers I will do it and just tell them they may need a ceiling painted etc. my apprentices laugh at me saying JS Woodworking or JS Landscaping lol. 





shocksystems said:


> Installing crown molding. That looks great and I am sure that the homeowner loves it (seriously). I would never even contemplate doing that because it is so far out of my area of expertise and notoriously a pain in the neck to cut accurately and get it to look perfect. I am surprised that you can do this efficiently and profitably as an electrician, how many did it take to get this process down? Do you bump up the price considerably for this work?
> 
> Cheers!
> 
> Jim


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## jsmart84 (Nov 20, 2011)

Shock, I'd change anywhere from 550 to 1000 for a room depending on size and size of molding and normally I'll put a labor only charge in there and then a estimate with pictures of one or two varieties of molding. I did much of my house old school way with a coping saw, what I nightmare. 

Since I was young I watched my grandfather do a lot and watched a lot of high end carpenters. Really comes down to having the right saw(double miter) . It's a great up sell because people want the wow factor. 





shocksystems said:


> Installing crown molding. That looks great and I am sure that the homeowner loves it (seriously). I would never even contemplate doing that because it is so far out of my area of expertise and notoriously a pain in the neck to cut accurately and get it to look perfect. I am surprised that you can do this efficiently and profitably as an electrician, how many did it take to get this process down? Do you bump up the price considerably for this work?
> 
> Cheers!
> 
> Jim


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

jsmart84 said:


> I did much of my house old school way with a coping saw, what I nightmare.


Coping molding is the best way to do it. Miters should only be used on outside corners and butt joints.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

WronGun said:


> I think the customer will have it patched up but I really like that access panel.. What department is that In? I remember going there on a few occasions looking for something similar with no luck
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Normally most H Depots have the 8" x 8" and the next larger size in the plumbing department.


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## daveEM (Nov 18, 2012)

I'd rather hang a fan then install a can.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

daveEM said:


> I'd rather hang a fan then install a can.


Recessed lights are considered a luxury and sell for a premium. 

Ceiling fans are those things that everyone knows someone who has put one up themselves and think it's real easy so they expect an electrician to do it for $50.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Access panel is a good idea. I have also put HVAC grills in closet ceilings. I have run EMT in closets as well (in the corner you barely notice it).


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> Access panel is a good idea. * I have also put HVAC grills in closet ceilings.* I have run EMT in closets as well (in the corner you barely notice it).


I know people who use HVAC registers when the hole is exposed in a room, this way it looks like it belongs there. But I am surprised to see you say that you do it at all, with your super air-sealed house requirements and all.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> I know people who use HVAC registers when the hole is exposed in a room, this way it looks like it belongs there. But I am surprised to see you say that you do it at all, with your super air-sealed house requirements and all.


.....


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## daveEM (Nov 18, 2012)

HackWork said:


> But I am surprised to see you say that you do it at all, with your super air-sealed house requirements and all.


Yeah 99 is into that vapour barrier, tight house stuff. Probably a story there. He's young and probably grew up at the time when safe sex was practiced. 

Myself being older grew up in the free wheeling good times and no barrier was required.

We live in the same city and I don't really have a problem cutting a hole in a wall. I bag the box cause we have them (bags) but don't bother with the tape for sure.

99 lived in my house he would probably go crazy trying to seal up the place. Built in '64 it was long before our current requirements. 

*Edit:* Before I get caught I did do this once...


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

99cents said:


> Access panel is a good idea. I have also put HVAC grills in closet ceilings. I have run EMT in closets as well (in the corner you barely notice it).


I've done the emt thing a time or two... The grille idea seems that it would raise havoc with mixing conditioned air and unconditioned air and condensation problems.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

MechanicalDVR said:


> I've done the emt thing a time or two... The grille idea seems that it would raise havoc with mixing conditioned air and unconditioned air and condensation problems.


How? We have dedicated cold air returns and attic penetrations are sealed.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

99cents said:


> How? We have dedicated cold air returns and attic penetrations are sealed.


Just seems cutting a 10" x 6" hole into a wall cavity would let moist dense air into places that shouldn't have it. Air returns are all on inside walls not exterior walls, only actual ducts are put in those walls. 

"Cold air returns" they are also hot air returns in the summer with a/c...just saying. :whistling2:


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

daveEM said:


> Yeah 99 is into that vapour barrier, tight house stuff. Probably a story there. He's young and probably grew up at the time when safe sex was practiced.
> 
> Myself being older grew up in the free wheeling good times and no barrier was required.
> 
> ...


Building inspectors are gestapo here. I once did a kitchen and living room reno. No building permit was required since there were no structural changes, or so we thought. I broke vapour barrier for one recessed light and the electrical inspector ratted us out. They demanded the GC pull a building permit for one lousy light.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

99cents said:


> Building inspectors are gestapo here. I once did a kitchen and living room reno. No building permit was required since there were no structural changes, or so we thought. I broke vapour barrier for one recessed light and the electrical inspector ratted us out. They demanded the GC pull a building permit for one lousy light.


The trade side of the 'police state'..... Dum dum dum


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Just seems cutting a 10" x 6" hole into a wall cavity would let moist dense air into places that shouldn't have it. Air returns are all on inside walls not exterior walls, only actual ducts are put in those walls.
> 
> "Cold air returns" they are also hot air returns in the summer with a/c...just saying. :whistling2:


Makes no sense. You have tons of holes in interior walls - device boxes, open lighting trims, etc.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

99cents said:


> Makes no sense. You have tons of holes in interior walls - device boxes, open lighting trims, etc.


Aren't they all supposed to be sealed?


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Aren't they all supposed to be sealed?


On interior walls and uninsulated ceilings between floors? Why?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

When all the windows in my home are closed and I am sitting on the toilet bowl with the exhaust fan on, I get a small stream of air hitting me in my eye from the light switch. I can smell an inside of the wall smell.

Using an open vent to cover a hole would allow the smells as well as dust and insects into the room. I would rather use an access panel. I have an access panel in the closet behind my shower and I use 3 inch wide duct tape to seal it to the wall.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Your construction is so much different than ours'. I put a grill in the ceiling of my own place (90's townhouse) and never had an issue. I nicked a PEX pipe drilling between floors for floor warming  .


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

99cents said:


> On interior walls and uninsulated ceilings between floors? Why?


I wasn't focused on interior uninsulated wall cavities specifically but effectively an open hole in the interior envelope of a dwelling just doesn't seem the right thing in my mind. The small cracks around a wallcase don't seem to have the same impact.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

daveEM said:


> Yeah 99 is into that vapour barrier, tight house stuff. Probably a story there. He's young and probably grew up at the time when safe sex was practiced.
> 
> Myself being older grew up in the free wheeling good times and no barrier was required.
> 
> ...


Have you guys met? Does he throw eggs at your truck when you pass by him on the street?? :thumbup:


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

I may or may not have done a few boxes about that quality of bag and tape... Looks weird and cheap lol.


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## Signal1 (Feb 10, 2016)

Everything here is strapped. No patching except a L notch at the wall to get to the switch.
I got this pic from CT site discussion herehttp:/http://www.contractortalk.com/f14/strapping-72202//


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Signal1 said:


> Everything here is strapped. No patching except a L notch at the wall to get to the switch.
> I got this pic from CT site discussion herehttp:/http://www.contractortalk.com/f14/strapping-72202//


Every once in a while I will find a strapped ceiling, it's like winning the lottery :thumbup: It's so much easier being able to snake in both directions.


----------



## Signal1 (Feb 10, 2016)

Putting a slight bend on the end of a 1/4 fish tape, and with a little practice you can get it to glide right under the joists when going across them.
When I was a helper I worked for a residential guy that taught me all about fishing wiring old work. We would easily bang out six 5" cans and be cleaned up in 2 hours or so.
He's still at it and is very successful.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Signal1 said:


> Putting a slight bend on the end of a 1/4 fish tape, and with a little practice you can get it to glide right under the joists when going across them.
> When I was a helper I worked for a residential guy that taught me all about fishing wiring old work. We would easily bang out six 5" cans and be cleaned up in 2 hours or so.
> He's still at it and is very successful.


When working in a furred ceiling I use my Magnapull to pull the bullet magnet across the top of the drywall under the joists. 

Sometimes I will find the basement ceiling furred every 1 foot because they staple in these horrible cardboardish tiles. I have pulled over 60 feet down the length of a basement with the Magnapull.


----------



## Signal1 (Feb 10, 2016)

Never used one of those. I just watched the video on their website. Looks like a great tool for working alone.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Signal1 said:


> Never used one of those. I just watched the video on their website. Looks like a great tool for working alone.


Some of the uses are pretty remedial for a pro. But there are a few ways to use the system that will really help. Such as putting the magnet on the end of a set of fiber sticks and mating it to a pile of chain dropped into a cavity 20' away.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I hate those interlocked tiles. Strapping here makes fishing for cans so much easier.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

nrp3 said:


> I hate those interlocked tiles. Strapping here makes fishing for cans so much easier.


Me too, there's no way to remove them and put them back the right way. Sometimes you can make it look kinda good, but never the way it was.

Unless someone's got a trick, I'd love to hear it :thumbsup:


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

HackWork said:


> Some of the uses are pretty remedial for a pro. But there are a few ways to use the system that will really help. Such as putting the magnet on the end of a set of fiber sticks and mating it to a pile of chain dropped into a cavity 20' away.


What kind of magnet do you use on the tip of the fish rod?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Majewski said:


> What kind of magnet do you use on the tip of the fish rod?


The bullet magnets unscrew from the loop or leader and can be screwed on the end of a glow stick.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

I've never done that! Thanks for the info!


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## daveEM (Nov 18, 2012)

HackWork said:


> Have you guys met? Does he throw eggs at your truck when you pass by him on the street?? :thumbup:


Nope. I did offer to let him try my M18 out a while back.He was having problems with his and was wondering if it was his drill or battery.

He's hard on tools so I would have had to watch him carefully  so I suggested he buy coffee and donuts :thumbup:.

That didn't work.  

So i'm still looking for free coffee and donuts.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

That's messed up. I'll buy you coffee and donuts anytime.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> That's messed up. I'll buy you coffee and donuts anytime.


There's a catch. Dave wanted me to hang three ceiling fans for him. :icon_eek:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> There's a catch. Dave wanted me to hang three ceiling fans for him. :icon_eek:


You should have. You're so mean.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

I can't hang ceiling fans without leaving blood all over the place. Looks like a scene from a slasher movie.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I installed a ceiling fan at home a couple of weekends ago. I think I could go a month or two without doing another.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Dave has a nice, new truck. I would never throw eggs at it. I might steal it, though  .


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

nrp3 said:


> I installed a ceiling fan at home a couple of weekends ago. I think I could go a month or two without doing another.


Last time I had a fan job, I had the man of the house convinced he didn't need it. Then the boss came home and put him in his place. She got what she wanted. I hope he did too.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Sometimes the m18 drill gets stuck because of a faulty direction button...

When I cut myself on a job and if it's roughing or attic work, I leave a hand smudge.

My living room fan fell a while back because the jbox broke! 

And I'll buy you all donuts and coffee!

There I had a response to all posts since my last one.


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## daks (Jan 16, 2013)

nrp3 said:


> I installed a ceiling fan at home a couple of weekends ago. I think I could go a month or two without doing another.


 Did a bunch of ceiling fans at a convent a couple weeks ago. The whole time being watched by a bunch of old nuns as I installed fans in their quarters. 

I hate ceiling fans,
I hate having people stare at me while I work,
I hate talking about ceiling fans especially while I am installing a ceiling fan.
I hate being in cramped spaces surrounded by breakable knick-knacks, with a ladder and a tool belt.
Nuns have a lot of religious nick-knacks.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

daks said:


> Did a bunch of ceiling fans at a convent a couple weeks ago. The whole time being watched by a bunch of old nuns as I installed fans in their quarters.
> 
> I hate ceiling fans,
> I hate having people stare at me while I work,
> ...


Yup and they never tip.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

HackWork said:


> That's messed up. I'll buy you coffee and donuts anytime.


And here, I thought you had alligator arms.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Yup and they never tip.


They take that "vow of poverty" seriously ...

-- and wish to extend it to you.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

For those non-Catholics out there.

MANY nuns never touch a dime -- all year.

Literally.

In a word:

TRUE socialism.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

daks said:


> Did a bunch of ceiling fans at a convent a couple weeks ago. The whole time being watched by a bunch of old nuns as I installed fans in their quarters.
> 
> I hate ceiling fans,
> I hate having people stare at me while I work,
> ...


I hope you're not just blowing smoke. :no:


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

DAKS... Give them a mission.

As in: these precious objects of veneration MUST be removed.

"Thank you."


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## daks (Jan 16, 2013)

telsa said:


> DAKS... Give them a mission.
> 
> As in: these precious objects of veneration MUST be removed.
> 
> "Thank you."


 Oh we removed the ones in the most suicidal positions, but you can't speed up old nuns, each one has a story too, so you have to hear the story. Not a place where you can count on any type of efficiency.
Since the maintenance people (men) are not allowed up there. The only hands under 60 were myself and an assistant. Every table, chair, desk was piled with papers and "stuff". 

Discuss weather with mother superior - 10 mins
Wait for mother superior to notify nuns upstairs that the maintenance men are coming up. 20 mins
Introductions to a lot of nuns - 20 mins
Discussion on the weather with nuns -10 mins
Hold up box to show nun ceiling fan -5 mins
Discuss that it is a nice ceiling fan - 5 mins
Wait for first nun to unlock her room door (walker, find keys, find key)- 5 mins.
Realize it is a small room, packed to the brim with papers, porcelain figurines, and pictures of Jesus everywhere looking at me - 2 seconds
Locate, box and newspapers to collect SEF (Suicidal Explosive Figurines ) 10 mins
Collect, wrap, and hear the story of each figurine - 20 mins 
Assemble and install ceiling fan - 15 mins 
Demonstrate operation and how to use remote - 5 mins
Wait for nuns to clear path from door so we can repeat in next room 5-10 mins (traffic management with walkers can be quite the logistical nightmare). Go back to step (hold up box).

The next week we were coming back with scissor lifts to do a bunch of lighting and other highbay work. Fortunately it was in the public areas that their maintenance people are allowed to be. So they could move stuff for us. 
I had a dread that one of my guys would come upto me and say;
" I broke Jesus"
The lifts barely fit through the doors, had to break down the top cages and only had about 1/2" total clearance at the sides, so I was the one that got volunteered for door piloting. 
Kept a helper on perimeter watch because nuns would pop out of nowhere to have a look and they moved a lot slower than the scissor-lifts. 
I'm sure there would be a special place in hell for running over a nun with a scissor-lift. 

Mother superior was all worried about the lifts being left in the parking lot until the rental company came to pick the up my reply was;
"We have a hiding spot for the key arranged with the rental company, so it would be hard to steal, unless you're worried that the nuns may sneak out and start drag racing them tonight, everything should be fine" 
Lol the look on her face as she pictured old nuns drag-racing the lifts, that got a good laugh.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

telsa said:


> They take that "vow of poverty" seriously ...
> 
> -- and wish to extend it to you.


There was a Monsignor living in a Retreat House that was a customer. On OT call outs he was the person to sign the work orders. He'd invite you in his suite and have you sit and share a few shots of single malt over non religious conversation. I think we all felt bad for him being there alone and often stayed for conversation. If you said you were on the clock he'd never complain. Nice old Irish guy with a heavy brogue.


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

Having been raised Irish Catholic I never understood most of it, as for ceiling fans I've put up more than I care to mention they pay well as long as they're not located over a bed that still in place I don't mind. Not my favorite thing on the job but far from the worst you could be face down in the dirt do in the pool bond on a 90° sunny day ah no....


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

Success ! Camera came in really handy !


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## zac (May 11, 2009)

WronGun said:


> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You could have at least put a nail plate over it. 

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Don't listen to him WronGun, it's fine, you did excellent.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

Nail plate ?! Where? ... I didn't notch anything but the drywall.. I know it's hard to tell from the picture , but that's some thick drywall ..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

WronGun said:


> Nail plate ?! Where? ... I didn't notch anything but the drywall.. I know it's hard to tell from the picture , but that's some thick drywall ..
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


He doesn't like the romex passing over the framing like you did there or like I posted on the first page. But don't worry, you are fine.


One day maybe he'll let me know how that is any more susceptible to screws damaging it than this, which is compliant:


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

WronGun said:


> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


What do you think of that scope? I find it so flimsy..... I prefer the thicker one.


HackWork said:


> He doesn't like the romex passing over the framing like you did there or like I posted on the first page. But don't worry, you are fine.
> 
> 
> One day maybe he'll let me know how that is any more susceptible to screws damaging it than this, which is compliant:
> ...


That would be so bad if and when someone starts screwing into it.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Majewski said:


> That would be so bad if and when someone starts screwing into it.


Yet everyone in the New England states and all the other areas that do that survive just fine.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

I get it by why in gods name would anyone drive a screw right there ? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Heck, I don't like your method but I certainly don't trust the method in the picture either. Is it perfect? No..... Buuuuuuuut 1 romex vs ALL is certainly less bad. lol


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

Majewski said:


> What do you think of that scope? I find it so flimsy..... I prefer the thicker one.
> 
> That would be so bad if and when someone starts screwing into it.




This is the bigger scope , bigger screen... I used it for my second check... First check was with insulation rods.... Camera just verified some spots that felt funny.... Definitely made me much more confident before cutting the bigger holes


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

WronGun said:


> I get it by why in gods name would anyone drive a screw right there ?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


They wouldn't, and they don't. It's just some people's imagination. 

And if for some strange reason they do, the breaker will take care of it.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

I know the camera model but that actual scope is smaller than the older one. It's weaker and crimps easier. Or am I wrong?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Did you use your holesaw?


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

We've done it with strapping forever. The only thing I can see is what if someone does crown molding? No ones expecting it there either. If I had to work without strapping on ceilings all the time, I'd have to change the way I fished things in too.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

I've only seen 2 scopes by Milwaukee ... One about the size of a pencil and this one that just makes it into a 7/8" hole.... I bought this years ago , so maybe I'm not up to date on any new scopes they have 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

HackWork said:


> Did you use your holesaw?













Worked like a champ with a dust shield 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

WronGun said:


> I've only seen 2 scopes by Milwaukee ... One about the size of a pencil and this one that just makes it into a 7/8" hole.... I bought this years ago , so maybe I'm not up to date on any new scopes they have
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I think we're on the same page. The smaller scope suuuuuuucks! Acme has a longer one that you can replace the shorter one with. I haven't bought it yet but will soon.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

WronGun said:


> Worked like a champ with a dust shield
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I still haven't bought the ones Hax linked to me once!!! I really need to soon. I saved the links though. lol


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

The whole conversation is interesting. I know those hole saws speed things up, but where I am, I never use one for the reason that there's a good chance there's wiring above.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

nrp3 said:


> The whole conversation is interesting. I know those hole saws speed things up, but where I am, I never use one for the reason that there's a good chance there's wiring above.




True but I checked everything , you can see in one of my pics... The only thing I came across was that 12/2 romex on the monitor that was high and tight to the joist 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

WronGun said:


> http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160911/2d111e9b41a082f349a96cd0dafc0078.jpg[/MG]
> 
> Worked like a champ with a dust shield
> 
> ...


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

nrp3 said:


> The whole conversation is interesting. I know those hole saws speed things up, but where I am, I never use one for the reason that there's a good chance there's wiring above.


I normally use a hole pro knock off or just a jab saw. But it's nice to be fully stocked in case you need a different tool.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

WronGun said:


> True but I checked everything , you can see in one of my pics... The only thing I came across was that 12/2 romex on the monitor that was high and tight to the joist
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


He is used to the wiring laying right on the drywall like in the picture I posted with the romex between the strapping. You wouldn't have seen that unless you did a full 180 turn with your camera snake.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Exactly, that's the point, no strapping and most everything is up enough drilled through the joists so when you punch through the drywall you're safe. Here, by the time you punch through its too late. I use a jab saw only. The damage is less.


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

I forgot all about the Milwaukee camera. I bought one years ago and it's collecting dust at the shop somewhere. Maybe I need to dig it up and pull it out of retirement.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

drspec said:


> I forgot all about the Milwaukee camera. I bought one years ago and it's collecting dust at the shop somewhere. Maybe I need to dig it up and pull it out of retirement.


Never need a camera to help you remember you having it? I keep mine in the van all the time.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

What I do is take an insulation hanger and poke a through. I pull it out and make a 90 degree bend in it with the length a little greater than the radius of the can I'm cutting in. I will spin that around and raise it up and down to feel for pipes or framing in the area that the can would be and can then move my hole as need be.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I still have the original Rigid SeeSnake. I never use it. 

I use this once in a while: http://www.techtoolsupply.com/Wall-Eye-3-4in-Mini-In-Wall-Viewing-Device-p/lsd-55-415.htm


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

I'm serious about my gadgets , another camera that has come in extremely handy many times !


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I'll have to look at those cameras again (the snake ones). Not ready for the infrared. Have played with them.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

WronGun said:


> I'm serious about my gadgets , another camera that has come in extremely handy many times !
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Oh I like you so much more now. I want a nice flir so bad!


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I feel like I'd need to go get the certification to really know how to use those well. Not going to quit my day job to become a thermographer, but there's a bit to learn to use them correctly.


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## zac (May 11, 2009)

WronGun said:


> Nail plate ?! Where? ... I didn't notch anything but the drywall.. I know it's hard to tell from the picture , but that's some thick drywall ..
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


And that's why it's hack. The wire is subject to physical damage. Putting a nail plate eliminates the possibility of the wire being compromised. 
Will it happen probably not...but these same scenarios are defined by handyman and hacks throughout the land. The result: saving the customer money while undermining the Electrical contactors bid. Which equals jobs lost.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

nrp3 said:


> I feel like I'd need to go get the certification to really know how to use those well. Not going to quit my day job to become a thermographer, but there's a bit to learn to use them correctly.




Yup it does get pretty deep... I was thinking about taking some courses... When you buy the camera Flir offers you lots of education 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

If I get that s60 cat cell phone I will have a flir! lol


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

Majewski said:


> Never need a camera to help you remember you having it? I keep mine in the van all the time.


I didnt like it when I first got it and didnt think it worked very well so I stopped carrying it around.



HackWork said:


> I still have the original Rigid SeeSnake. I never use it.
> 
> I use this once in a while: http://www.techtoolsupply.com/Wall-Eye-3-4in-Mini-In-Wall-Viewing-Device-p/lsd-55-415.htm


I bought that as well and forget about it too. 

We do a lot of recessed lighting and what I normally do is come up with a layout and probe the ceiling with an offset screwdriver. Theyre almost the perfect size for a 6" remodel can. Spin it around and if it doesnt spin 360 degrees, you relocate the center and probe again. Most of the time the ceiling requires patching anyway since we're removing a surface mount fluorescent and adding pendant lighting on a new switch leg at the same time so it's no big deal if there's an extra hole or 2.

Once the layout is set, we actually cut a trench so we can drill through the joists. Its not worth taking the chance of hitting plumbing, wiring, hvac duct using a flex bit and drilling blind. Drywall is saved and we will add wood backing and screw the drywall back in place.

If we have attic access, well thats easy. Earlier this week had 6 cans and 2 ceiling fans to add along with switches. Luckily that had attic and we knocked that out in about 2 hours.


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

```

```



zac said:


> And that's why it's hack. The wire is subject to physical damage. Putting a nail plate eliminates the possibility of the wire being compromised.
> Will it happen probably not...but these same scenarios are defined by handyman and hacks throughout the land. The result: saving the customer money while undermining the Electrical contactors bid. Which equals jobs lost.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk



I agree it's hack (sorry Hax) and I would never do it, but putting a nail plate over it doesnt make the wire any less subject to damage. Think about it this way. The wire on each side of the joist, even if using a nail plate is every bit susceptible to damage than if there is no nail plate there.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Gotta put it somewhere though!


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

drspec said:


> ```
> 
> ```
> 
> I agree it's hack (sorry Hax) and I would never do it, but putting a nail plate over it doesnt make the wire any less subject to damage. Think about it this way. The wire on each side of the joist, even if using a nail plate is every bit susceptible to damage than if there is no nail plate there.


If that is subject to physical damage, then every house in New England and many other places is FILLED with much, much worse problems, as I illustrated earlier and nrp3 attested to.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

drspec said:


> ```
> 
> ```
> 
> ...




Ok if this is hack , and a nail plate doesn't help ... Than how would you do it ? I'm not trying to save time or hack jobs... I'm the OP and this is new to me , so if there's a better way id like to know what that would be


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

WronGun said:


> Ok if this is hack , and a nail plate doesn't help ... Than how would you do it ? I'm not trying to save time or hack jobs... I'm the OP and this is new to me , so if there's a better way is like to know
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


There isn't a "better" way, there are just other ways.

You could cut a bigger hole in the wall and drill up thru the top plate, then run the wire in the hole. 

To me, I would never ever do something so silly. But other people do. To each his own.


----------



## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

WronGun said:


> Ok if this is hack , and a nail plate doesn't help ... Than how would you do it ? I'm not trying to save time or hack jobs... I'm the OP and this is new to me , so if there's a better way id like to know what that would be
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk





HackWork said:


> There isn't a "better" way, there are just other ways.
> 
> You could cut a bigger hole in the wall and drill up thru the top plate, then run the wire in the hole.
> 
> To me, I would never ever do something so silly. But other people do. To each his own.




Hax is right, there is no "better" way. We each have our own preference how we do things. My opinion is if youre going to have to patch 1 hole, whats a couple more. The entire ceiling's going to have to be painted anyway, IF they want it to look right.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

drspec said:


> Hax is right, there is no "better" way. We each have our own preference how we do things. My opinion is if youre going to have to patch 1 hole, whats a couple more. The entire ceiling's going to have to be painted anyway, IF they want it to look right.


I have had many customers specifically say things such as "You're not going to make a lot of big holes, are you?". I know you and a few others subscribe to the "If I have to make a hole, make it huge!" theory, but in my experience customers don't like that. I tell them that I only make small holes that are easy to patch, and they are happy about that.

And until someone can come up with a reasonable substantiation saying how running 1 romex the way I explained is any worse than running 15 romex's under the joists behind the drywall like they do in many states, I can't see how it is "hack".


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

HackWork said:


> I have had many customers specifically say things such as "You're not going to make a lot of big holes, are you?". I know you and a few others subscribe to the "If I have to make a hole, make it huge!" theory, but in my experience customers don't like that. I tell them that I only make small holes that are easy to patch, and they are happy about that.




Yep , definitely the situation on this particular job


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

HackWork said:


> I have had many customers specifically say things such as "You're not going to make a lot of big holes, are you?". I know you and a few others subscribe to the "If I have to make a hole, make it huge!" theory, but in my experience customers don't like that. I tell them that I only make small holes that are easy to patch, and they are happy about that.


I understand that and I used to be the same way. But after hiring guys to patch and paint, they all tell me the same thing. They would much rather patch 1 large patch than several small ones. I just explain to the homeowner why we need to cut access holes, what damage could occur if we dont, and why it's easier for 1 large patch versus 7 small patches.


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## zac (May 11, 2009)

WronGun said:


> Ok if this is hack , and a nail plate doesn't help ... Than how would you do it ? I'm not trying to save time or hack jobs... I'm the OP and this is new to me , so if there's a better way id like to know what that would be
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


There is a better way and it's opening up drywall. We don't like it when a hvac guy does the electrical on a AC unit he's installing..
by cutting out the drywall guy... your doing basically the same thing. And not only that.. it's hack.

If a diy posted on this forum the method hack proposed, the thread would be locked. I'm notsaying things don't happen but stop promoting this. 

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

drspec said:


> I understand that and I used to be the same way. But after hiring guys to patch and paint, they all tell me the same thing. They would much rather patch 1 large patch than several small ones. I just explain to the homeowner why we need to cut access holes, what damage could occur if we dont, and why it's easier for 1 large patch versus 7 small patches.


The homeowner usually patches the holes that I make because they are small and easy.


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

HackWork said:


> I have had many customers specifically say things such as "You're not going to make a lot of big holes, are you?". I know you and a few others subscribe to the "If I have to make a hole, make it huge!" theory, but in my experience customers don't like that. I tell them that I only make small holes that are easy to patch, and they are happy about that.
> 
> And until someone can come up with a reasonable substantiation saying how running 1 romex the way I explained is any worse than running 15 romex's under the joists behind the drywall like they do in many states, I can't see how it is "hack".


nail plates if the wire is within 1 1/4 of framing member

thats why the strapping is legal, the wire is more than 1 1/4" from the framing member even if its less than 3/4" from the drywall

I dont agree with it but thats the way the codes written


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

zac said:


> There is a better way and it's opening up drywall. We don't like it when a hvac guy does the electrical on a AC unit he's installing..
> by cutting out the drywall guy... your doing basically the same thing. And not only that.. it's hack.
> 
> If a diy posted on this forum the method hack proposed, the thread would be locked. I'm notsaying things don't happen but stop promoting this.
> ...


Of course the thread would be locked if a DIYer posted it, they all are. This is the second time you spoke about how this thread should be locked. You feel so strongly, yet you won't comment on how my method is *no more dangerous or more subject to damage then the example I gave of how romex is run under the joist when the ceiling is strapped.* I would like to hear your explanation. I just don't think you have one. You have dug in just like 480 and aren't willing to have an open mind and actually look at all the facts.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

drspec said:


> nail plates if the wire is within 1 1/4 of framing member
> 
> thats why the strapping is legal, the wire is more than 1 1/4" from the framing member even if its less than 3/4" from the drywall
> 
> I dont agree with it but thats the way the codes written


You are correct about the code. The point made about my method was that someone putting a screw into the ceiling could put it into my cable (which is EXTREMELY unlikely to find my one cable in the entire ceiling). 

That same thing can happen with those 15 cables in the picture I posted earlier, and it's much, much more likely in that situation.


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## zac (May 11, 2009)

HackWork said:


> Of course the thread would be locked if a DIYer posted it, they all are. This is the second time you spoke about how this thread should be locked. You feel so strongly, yet you won't comment on how my method is *no more dangerous or more subject to damage then the example I gave of how romex is run under the joist when the ceiling is strapped.* I would like to hear your explanation. I just don't think you have one. You have dug in just like 480 and aren't willing to have an open mind and actually look at all the facts.


Don't compare me to 480. Your like 480... You're never wrong. 
I break codes probably daily. I will however not tell people to go the cheap easy way out to save the customer money and possibly lo ball my competition. 

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

zac said:


> Don't compare me to 480. Your like 480... You're never wrong.


 Bologna, I'm wrong all the time. I was made a fool of the other day by a second year apprentice who schooled me on code, and the second he posted the code, I admitted my mistake. The second you post a reasonable substantiation to show how my method is hack, I will admit it as well. But you haven't even attempted to explain it, instead you just want the thread closed.



> I break codes probably daily. I will however not tell people to go the cheap easy way out to save the customer money and possibly lo ball my competition.


I provide great service and value for my customer. I try to do the least amount of damage to their home. I don't care even the slightest bit about my competition. I don't bust huge holes in people's houses to give work to tapers and to run up my labor hours.

As far as "low balling", my prices are far from low. You are talking out of school.

So I will ask again to have a reasonable, adult conversation. Please explain to me how my method is more subject to physical damage than running romex's under the joists like I posted earlier.


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

HackWork said:


> You are correct about the code. The point made about my method was that someone putting a screw into the ceiling could put it into my cable (which is EXTREMELY unlikely to find my one cable in the entire ceiling).
> 
> That same thing can happen with those 15 cables in the picture I posted earlier, and it's much, much more likely in that situation.



I totally see your point and I agree with you somewhat. 

I would never use your method, not because I feel it's less safe, it's just not something I would do.

If it works for you, I say keep on keeping on.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

drspec said:


> I totally see your point and I agree with you somewhat.
> 
> I would never use your method, not because I feel it's less safe, it's just not something I would do.
> 
> If it works for you, I say keep on keeping on.


I appreciate that.

I am not telling anyone to use my method. I am just defending myself against the people who say it's so horrible... because for the life of me I can't figure out how it's any worse than other complaint and widely used methods.

This: 










is much safer than this:








In my opinion.


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## zac (May 11, 2009)

I don't want the thread closed I am trying to paint a picture. Most Diy, though not experienced or qualified will have the same reasoning. I can't tell you how many times I find conduit less then 18" or 12" - if gfci protected underground, because the thought was....cmon who's going to actually accidentally hit this conduit? The reality is I loose jobs because of doing it the right way. It just costs more. 

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

I love when I cut my first hole for a recess can and discover open web trusses. I know then my day is going to be smooth. 
Now take those same open web trusses and have to brace a ceiling fan. Then I know my day is going to be ****ty unless you happen to be right on one of the trusses and can screw a fancake (that's what I call a fan rated pancake box) box right to it.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

drspec said:


> I love when I cut my first hole for a recess can and discover open web trusses. I know then my day is going to be smooth.
> Now take those same open web trusses and have to brace a ceiling fan. Then I know my day is going to be ****ty unless you happen to be right on one of the trusses and can screw a fancake (that's what I call a fan rated pancake box) box right to it.


FANCAKE! I love it! I just had a bid the other day for open truss fan... figured I would have to cut my way to framing in a box.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

zac said:


> I don't want the thread closed I am trying to paint a picture. Most Diy, though not experienced or qualified will have the same reasoning. I can't tell you how many times I find conduit less then 18" or 12" - if gfci protected underground, because the thought was....cmon who's going to actually accidentally hit this conduit? The reality is I loose jobs because of doing it the right way. It just costs more.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


So you won't respond to my question? Ok then...



> The reality is I loose jobs because of doing it the right way.


 Your way isn't any more "right" than mine. 

The truth is that you are making a choice on which way to do it based on your own beliefs and have to accept the advantages and disadvantages of your decision.


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## zac (May 11, 2009)

HackWork said:


> So you won't respond to my question? Ok then...
> 
> Your way isn't any more "right" than mine.
> 
> The truth is that you are making a choice on which way to do it based on your own beliefs and have to accept the advantages and disadvantages of your decision.


I don't need to answer the question. I'm doing it per code. My way is code so it is"more right" and for me end of discussion. 

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

zac said:


> I don't need to answer the question.


 Of course you don't have to. I just asked you to. I can't think of a single reason why you wouldn't answer the question other than the fact that you really don't have an answer and simply don't want to admit to it.

My method is not dangerous nor is it subject to physical damage. I gave good substantiation for that view. I have asked you 5-6 times now to have a discussion about it and see if you can give a reasonable counter to that view, but you refuse.


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

zac said:


> I don't need to answer the question. I'm doing it per code. My way is code so it is"more right" and for me end of discussion.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


Do you pull a permit and add afci protection?


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## zac (May 11, 2009)

HackWork said:


> Of course you don't have to. I just asked you to. I can't think of a single reason why you wouldn't answer the question other than the fact that you really don't have an answer and simply don't want to admit to it.
> 
> My method is not dangerous nor is it subject to physical damage. I gave good substantiation for that view. I have asked you 5-6 times now to have a discussion about it and see if you can give a reasonable counter to that view, but you refuse.


Go argue with someone else, your act is old. 

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

drspec said:


> Do you pull a permit and add afci protection?


His earlier post: 


zac said:


> I break codes probably daily.


Yet he complains about other contractors not doing it his way making him lose jobs


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

zac said:


> Go argue with someone else, your act is old.


Asking for an adult discussion comparing two wiring methods isn't an argument or an act.

But what you just did is commonly known as a cop-out. I don't know why you have resorted to this.


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

HackWork said:


> Of course you don't have to. I just asked you to. I can't think of a single reason why you wouldn't answer the question other than the fact that you really don't have an answer and simply don't want to admit to it.
> 
> My method is not dangerous nor is it subject to physical damage. I gave good substantiation for that view. I have asked you 5-6 times now to have a discussion about it and see if you can give a reasonable counter to that view, but you refuse.


technically it would be subject to physical damage IF the wire was installed that way BEFORE drywall is installed. IMO it's still subject to physical damage (others may disagree with me since wire doesnt have to be stapled sway from framing members when fishing wire in finished material) the way you do it but I wouldnt lose any sleep over it. The problem is passing under the joist. Now if you notched it, which imo would compromise the structural integrity, and nail plated it, no doubt it would be code compliant.

Thats just my opinion on this. I won't judge ya either way.


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

HackWork said:


> His earlier post:
> 
> 
> Yet he complains about other contractors not doing it his way making him lose jobs


thats the reason I asked the question

I rarely pull permits for adding recess lighting but I also dont worry about what someone else charges and complain about losing jobs to them.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

WronGun said:


> Ok if this is hack , and a nail plate doesn't help ... Than how would you do it ? I'm not trying to save time or hack jobs... I'm the OP and this is new to me , so if there's a better way id like to know what that would be
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Cut a bigger hole in the wall and drill an angled hole up into the ceiling cavity. No need to cut ceiling.


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## zac (May 11, 2009)

HackWork said:


> His earlier post:
> 
> 
> Yet he complains about other contractors not doing it his way making him lose jobs


I don't promote it and encourage it in on an electrical forum. That's the difference. 

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> Cut a bigger hole in the wall and drill an angled hole through the plate. No need to cut ceiling.


That's the way I used to do it, but only when the first light is close to the wall. Sometimes you need to cut the hole in the ceiling to get the cable up thru the top plate and then over to the first light.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

zac said:


> I don't promote it and encourage it in on an electrical forum. That's the difference.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


So it's ok to break code every day as long as you don't tell anyone else how to do it. Got it.

I'm just very honest and open, I don't hide things.


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## zac (May 11, 2009)

HackWork said:


> So it's ok to break code every day as long as you don't tell anyone else how to do it. Got it.
> 
> I'm just very honest and open, I don't hide things.


Neither does the Diy guy. 
Every situation is different and we could debate each scenario til the cows come home. 

I clearly disagree with your method because there is a way to get it done. You choose to do it your way. 

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## zac (May 11, 2009)

HackWork said:


> So it's ok to break code every day as long as you don't tell anyone else how to do it. Got it.
> 
> I'm just very honest and open, I don't hide things.


And you took this out of context. I am not perfect and have to negotiate at times and will compromise if I feel safe about it or will come back to address. I would say that's different then your recessed light approach if there is no attic access? Correct? 

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> That's the way I used to do it, but only when the first light is close to the wall. Sometimes you need to cut the hole in the ceiling to get the cable up thru the top plate and then over to the first light.


If your distance between fixtures is 6', your distance from the wall to your first fixture is only 3'. Now he has ceiling texture to fix.

This and a Daredevil bit gets you enough angle for your fish tape:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

zac said:


> Neither does the Diy guy.


 Which has nothing to do with this discussion, you're just using that as an insult.


> Every situation is different and we could debate each scenario til the cows come home.


 I only asked you to discuss 2 methods, but you completely refused to.



> I clearly disagree with your method because there is a way to get it done. You choose to do it your way.


Which is fine, I am not asking to you to agree with my method. The contention is that you are posting that your method is the right way and mine is wrong.



zac said:


> And you took this out of context. I am not perfect and have to negotiate at times and will compromise if I feel safe about it or will come back to address. I would say that's different then your recessed light approach if there is no attic access? Correct?


I have no idea what you mean here.


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

99cents said:


> If your distance between fixtures is 6', your distance from the wall to your first fixture is only 3'. Now he has ceiling texture to fix.
> 
> This and a Daredevil bit gets you enough angle for your fish tape:


youve apparently never dealt with doubled up joists, joists only 2" - 3" apart of blocking between joists


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## zac (May 11, 2009)

HackWork said:


> Which has nothing to do with this discussion, you're just using that as an insult.
> I only asked you to discuss 2 methods, but you completely refused to.
> 
> Because that's what Diyers do...
> ...





Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> If your distance between fixtures is 6', your distance from the wall to your first fixture is only 3'.


 Not everything is that straight forward. There are many situations in which the first recessed light may be much further from the wall.



> Now he has ceiling texture to fix.


I know Canada is behind the times when it comes to fashion and customs, this textured ceiling thing you keep bringing up just isn't that prevalent. And when it is (like popcorn), the homeowner is usually looking for a reason to get rid of it.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

zac said:


> And you took this out of context. I am not perfect and have to negotiate at times and will compromise if I feel safe about it or will come back to address. I would say that's different then your recessed light approach if there is no attic access? Correct?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


Easy way to notch it is to drill a couple of holes into the side of the plate about an inch deep. Hammer in your protection plate and put a piece of drywall over top.


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## zac (May 11, 2009)

99cents said:


> Easy way to notch it is to drill a couple of holes into the side of the plate about an inch deep. Hammer in your protection plate and put a piece of drywall over top.


That's what I replied earlier perky. 
I have at times needed to notch a stud to help a client out. Its few and rare but I always put a nail plate on. 

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> Not everything is that straight forward. There are many situations in which the first recessed light may be much further from the wall.
> 
> 
> 
> I know Canada is behind the times when it comes to fashion and customs, this textured ceiling thing you keep bringing up just isn't that prevalent. And when it is (like popcorn), the homeowner is usually looking for a reason to get rid of it.


I see texture and this job isn't in Canada. Now he has to try blending it.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Lots of knockdown ceilings here and to cut those is a felony.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> I see texture and this job isn't in Canada. Now he has to try blending it.


Yeah, and it will be a LOT easier for the homeowner to blend in a little notch than the huge trench the other guys want to cut across the entire ceiling.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

I don't think matching that exact texture would be too hard but that's my opinion. Is it really a felony to cut into a ceiling for you?


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> Yeah, and it will be a LOT easier for the homeowner to blend in a little notch than the huge trench the other guys want to cut across the entire ceiling.


You trench the wall, not the ceiling. I'm trenching a ceiling on Monday but that's only because they're scraping off the popcorn.


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

the only time i worry about cutting into the ceiling is when they have radiant ceiling heat.

then I have to explain to the homeowner that we will have to disable that room from the system since we would be cutting through the wires

other than that, knockdown, popcorn, whatever it may be is explained to the homeowner and if they dont want to repair a ceiling then they dont get the lights. I move on to the next job. Its as simple as that.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

You guys are obsessed with small notches in drywall. Big patch, little patch, makes no diff.


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

99cents said:


> You guys are obsessed with small notches in drywall. Big patch, little patch, makes no diff.



thats what Ive been saying all along

one large patch is easier and blends in better than several small patches

entire ceiling its going to have to be painted anyways to make it look right


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## zac (May 11, 2009)

drspec said:


> thats what Ive been saying all along
> 
> one large patch is easier and blends in better than several small patches
> 
> entire ceiling its going to have to be painted anyways to make it look right


I've said that earlier too. 


Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

drspec said:


> the only time i worry about cutting into the ceiling is when they have radiant ceiling heat.
> 
> then I have to explain to the homeowner that we will have to disable that room from the system since we would be cutting through the wires
> 
> other than that, knockdown, popcorn, whatever it may be is explained to the homeowner and if they dont want to repair a ceiling then they dont get the lights. I move on to the next job. Its as simple as that.


I take care of customer concerns, I don't tell them to screw off.


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

99cents said:


> I take care of customer concerns, I don't tell them to screw off.



As do I

but Im not going to waste my time with an unreasonable homeowner because they cant understand why wiring cant be added without cutting drywall. 

how many times have you heard this "but they did it when the house was built. why cant you do it now?"

really? and most of the time these are highly educated people, some with doctorates but they have absolutely zero common sense


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Majewski said:


> I don't think matching that exact texture would be too hard but that's my opinion. Is it really a felony to cut into a ceiling for you?


I cut my teeth on high end, expensive renovations. I was taught to leave textured ceilings alone. I carry that philosophy even into low rent slums (not that I do low rent slums).


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Common sense ain't so common!


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

99cents said:


> I cut my teeth on high end, expensive renovations. I was taught to leave textured ceilings alone. I carry that philosophy even into low rent slums (not that I do low rent slums).


I like that motto but sometimes it works out. If they're going to demo it anyways or have someone retexture/paint anyways.... or if I know I can do it, I'll offer. Just depends.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Of course, if they're scraping the ceiling, tear it open.


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

99cents said:


> I cut my teeth on high end, expensive renovations. I was taught to leave textured ceilings alone. I carry that philosophy even into low rent slums (not that I do low rent slums).


same here but they can pay for it with additional labor or pay for the ceiling to be repaired. Most of the time it's cheaper to have the ceiling refinished.

A few years back I had a kitchen remodel where they wanted like 8 - 4" recess can lights. The builder wanted me to do minimal cutting. We attempted it and everywhere we tried to locate a light, there was an obstruction (2 story house, finished room above) drain lines, water lines, wiring, hvac ducting, beefed up framing. No matter what we did we ran into a new obstacle.

I finally convinced the builder that the needed to remove the drywall on the ceiling since it was going to be cheaper and easier in the long run. They finally understood when the drywall came down and saw everything in the ceiling. From that point on, there was always money in the budget for that scenario.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

That's Murphys law right there!


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

drspec said:


> same here but they can pay for it with additional labor or pay for the ceiling to be repaired. Most of the time it's cheaper to have the ceiling refinished.
> 
> A few years back I had a kitchen remodel where they wanted like 8 - 4" recess can lights. The builder wanted me to do minimal cutting. We attempted it and everywhere we tried to locate a light, there was an obstruction (2 story house, finished room above) drain lines, water lines, wiring, hvac ducting, beefed up framing. No matter what we did we ran into a new obstacle.
> 
> I finally convinced the builder that the needed to remove the drywall on the ceiling since it was going to be cheaper and easier in the long run. They finally understood when the drywall came down and saw everything in the ceiling. From that point on, there was always money in the budget for that scenario.


We agree here more than we disagree  .


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I try really hard not to cut anything into a textured ceiling but the cans if possible. The right angle drill at angle is a great idea in a wall cut. Get enough angle and the steel tape should get over to the first can.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

I'm starting a job this week so I'll show you guys how it's done. And, no, I won't be threading a needle.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

99cents said:


> I'm starting a job this week so I'll show you guys how it's done. And, no, I won't be threading a needle.


Ooooooooo I'm excited. You'll start a thread and show us pictures?!


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Majewski said:


> Ooooooooo I'm excited. You'll start a thread and show us pictures?!


Yeah, why not? I'm that kind of guy. I like to help the needy.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

99cents said:


> I see texture and this job isn't in Canada. Now he has to try blending it.


Here's how it's possible:






Don't hesitate to jump a head to the action.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Lord knows I need a lot of things. Like a rabies shot.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

*Gee wiz it's only sheerock...*



99cents said:


> You guys are obsessed with small notches in drywall. Big patch, little patch, makes no diff.





drspec said:


> thats what Ive been saying all along
> 
> one large patch is easier and blends in better than several small patches
> 
> entire ceiling its going to have to be painted anyways to make it look right





zac said:


> I've said that earlier too.



Sheetrock is about the cheapest building material in any project, I'm clueless why so many guys seem to have an inane fear of it. I've been ripping out walls and ceilings for a very long time, hell many times I even put them back and finished the rock myself. It isn't brain science or rocket surgery..


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

drspec said:


> I love when I cut my first hole for a recess can and discover open web trusses. I know then my day is going to be smooth.
> Now take those same open web trusses and have to brace a ceiling fan. Then I know my day is going to be ****ty unless you happen to be right on one of the trusses and can screw a fancake (that's what I call a fan rated pancake box) box right to it.


I don't see the big difficulty.

1) If on a lower floor, then you've got sub-floor directly above -- and it's level, too.

So I'd glue and screw a doubler from below -- to give me the thickness I'll need. 

It need not be long// huge.

Then I would anchor off of it with a traditional Sammy Superscrew and all thread down to my ( deep and robust ) fan box.










2) It's the top floor. So the open truss is really open. 

I can use the same technique -- with the doubler glued up at an angle.

Or I can cobble up some bracing -- by using an extra large sheet rock penetration. 

This gambit takes advantage of the large medallion that comes with the fan as a trim.

My penetration would take the form of a pumpkin cut. I'd tack it -- the sheet rock 'door' with any old scrap// flat cover steel and some self-tappers -- back up.* Then with my laser still pointing where the fan box is to centered*, cut a final hole into center of the pumpkin cut door.

A Sammy super screw and all thread will bail me out of just about any drop in a wooden framed building.

The ragged pumpkin cut door will be hidden by the fan's trim, no mudding is required.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Sheetrock is about the cheapest building material in any project, I'm clueless why so many guys seem to have an inane fear of it. I've been ripping out walls and ceilings for a very long time, hell many times I even put them back and finished the rock myself. It isn't brain science or rocket surgery..


This guy.... That's right here. Respect.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

HackWork said:


> So it's ok to break code every day as long as you don't tell anyone else how to do it. Got it.
> 
> I'm just very honest and open, *I don't hide things.*


Even your duck is exposed.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

telsa said:


> Even your duck is exposed.


Swampy loves his rubber ducky.


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## shocksystems (Apr 25, 2009)

HackWork said:


> I appreciate that.
> 
> I am not telling anyone to use my method. I am just defending myself against the people who say it's so horrible... because for the life of me I can't figure out how it's any worse than other complaint and widely used methods.
> 
> ...



Hack - 

You are really making me think, I like that. My gut tells me that what you do is more dangerous, but you make a great point it might not be. I might be wasting time drilling holes through joists or notching joists and using nail plates (and making bigger holes in sheetrock). 

On thing (that does not negate your point entirely) is that in your two pictures the top picture has no strapping, correct? So the wire is in fact embedded IN the sheetrock when it is spackled, correct? Versus the second picture where there is strapping and therefore the romex is ABOVE the sheetrock and not embedded in it.

Cheers!

Jim


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

shocksystems said:


> Hack -
> 
> You are really making me think, I like that. My gut tells me that what you do is more dangerous, but you make a great point it might not be. I might be wasting time drilling holes through joists or notching joists and using nail plates (and making bigger holes in sheetrock).
> 
> ...


There's plenty of information in this thread from both sides, it's up to you to choose what you like better. 

As for your second question, yes, the romex is embedded in the spackle in my situation while being above the drywall in the strapping situation. However, the difference is minimal if existent at all. The worry was that someone might put a screw into it, and any screw that would go into my romex would also go into the romex in the strapped ceiling.

Also remember that the romex in the strapped ceiling is pulled tight so if you put a screw into any part of the ceiling, even between the joists, it will pierce the romex. In my situation, the screw can only reach the romex for the 2" it is going underneath the joist, the rest of the way it is looped up higher in the cavity. Plus, I am only running one cable versus 15 of them in strapped situations, so my way is a LOT less likely to have an issue than all the areas that strap ceilings (and we never hear about issues with those).

I told this story 10+ years ago back on EKR before ET was even here. I did side work for a guy who used a hatchet to make two cuts, one an uppercut and the second a downward cut in the drywall. He would walk down a wall and do that on every stud, making the perfect little vagina shaped cut-out to run the romex thru. It was similar to the notch that I make but much faster


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

Added 24 recess cans today in 2 different houses. Drywall ceiling no patching. First house we removed flooring in the attic and the 2nd house had open web trusses.

I generally love installing recess lighting but after the last couple weeks Im almost sick of looking at them. Probably installed around 50 and trimmed out even more. Still have 3 more to do tomorrow.


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## electricguy (Mar 22, 2007)

HackWork said:


> There's plenty of information in this thread from both sides, it's up to you to choose what you like better.
> 
> As for your second question, yes, the romex is embedded in the spackle in my situation while being above the drywall in the strapping situation. However, the difference is minimal if existent at all. The worry was that someone might put a screw into it, and any screw that would go into my romex would also go into the romex in the strapped ceiling.
> 
> ...


You worked for RR ?


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Ever do those lotus super thin lights?


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