# The Biggest



## Deep Cover

The specs called for 4 ground rods spaced 2' out from the pad on all sides making a 13'X14' rectangle with 1 ought 18" down. Bedrock was about 32" down so by the time we got the angle on the rods, it seemed as the rods weren't necessary as they were practically laying with the wire.



















PoCo came out to install these ground connectors. The tool used was a sort of C Clamp that used a .22 charge to wedge the connector tight.


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## BBQ

Very cool, thanks for posting them.


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## BBQ

The power company is allowing 11 sets?

I am pretty sure they limit us to ten sets in a transformer pad.


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## Deep Cover

As part of the building upgrade, they are adding some office space. We are not handling that part of the electric, but another panel was needed for the office circuits. The existing Xfmr will be used until the new service is fired up, then these panels will be changed over to the new Xfmr.


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## Deep Cover

BBQ said:


> The power company is allowing 11 sets?
> 
> I am pretty sure they limit us to ten sets in a transformer pad.


I don't think the POCO has the final say in this situation since this is after all the metering and it is customer owned and maintained.

We are planning 11 parallel sets of 500 MCM.


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## BBQ

Deep Cover said:


> I don't think the POCO has the final say in this situation since this is after all the metering and it is customer owned and maintained.


Good point and you had mentioned that it would be a customer owned transformer. 

I am going to go make my morning coffee. :jester:


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## jett95

Looks cool!!!


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## para19

I noticed you went EMT from the panel to the XFMR. I have always have to transition to flex or use Teck due to vibration issue. But I am in Canada, just curious.


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## BBQ

para19 said:


> I noticed you went EMT from the panel to the XFMR. I have always have to transition to flex or use Teck due to vibration issue. But I am in Canada, just curious.


Is it actually required by your code or just tradition?

Here is it just tradition or job specifications.


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## para19

Kinda... If the inspector felt that the vibration could compromise the mechanical continuity of the raceway then yes, code violation.


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## chicken steve

Nice job DC

so what kinda switchgear are you installing?

must have a good aic to be that close too....

~CS~


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## Big John

para19 said:


> Kinda... If the inspector felt that the vibration could compromise the mechanical continuity of the raceway then yes, code violation.


 I would pay a lot of money to see the transformer that vibrated enough to do that. And then I'd re-make my money by charging drunks $10 apiece to ride it.


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## para19

Big John said:


> I would pay a lot of money to see the transformer that vibrated enough to do that. And then I'd re-make my money by charging drunks $10 apiece to ride it.


Agreed ! It's a weak attempt to find a code rule that would fit the bill. True I have allows done it due to spec & tradition.


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## Deep Cover

chicken steve said:


> Nice job DC
> 
> so what kinda switchgear are you installing?
> 
> must have a good aic to be that close too....
> 
> ~CS~


I don't know for sure. All the Xfmrs I've installed for this company have been Cutler, but I know my boss REALLY likes the I-Line panel boards for these manufacturing facilities.


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## sbrn33

What a great project. It would be fun to be involved. Looks like a ****ty building to work in though.


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## Cow

Deep Cover said:


> (11) 3½" EMT out the back, (11) 4"RMC→PVC runs to Xfmr


Looks good, other than the set screw fittings on the rigid. And the strut with no slots in it, that stuff sucks!


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## Deep Cover

That is slotted strut. We had to use the shallow due to having to stack the RMC 3 deep. We originally planned on 2 rows, but the size of the opening in the Xfmr limited the space we had to work with.

I was waiting for a set screw connector comment. I have never used set screw connectors on anything outside, but my boss insists that it's fine. I know what he is saying...I mean, how would water ever get in these under the cabinet, but it just feels wrong.


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## micromind

One thing I would have done differently is the 11 3-1/2s going from the back of the can outside through the block wall into the switchgear. 

If they are going straight through the wall (meaning they are less then 24" long), I would have used 6 4" instead. It would be easy to shove 8 500s through a 4" that has no bends and is short. 

The code allows 8 500 THHNs in 4" EMT. 

Considering the length and number of 90s, I would use 11 4" outside, just as you did though. 

Also, there's no need for a full-size neutral. Considering that the majority of the load is 3ø, I'd reduce the neutral a lot. 

The way you supported the pipe coming up from the ground, it's going to look very nice when it's done.


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## Switched

I miss doing that kind of stuff! Thanks for posting.

I'm going to have to start bidding some more commercial just for the fun of it!:thumbsup:


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## Deep Cover

micromind said:


> Also, there's no need for a full-size neutral. Considering that the majority of the load is 3ø, I'd reduce the neutral a lot.


Honestly, I don't think we are even pulling a neutral. Nothing in the place needs 480/277. We will be setting a Xfmr per 2 machines. Lighting panels will have a 480 to 120/208 Xfmr feeding them.

The machines are very voltage sensitive. If I'm remembering correctly, they are spec'ed at 230V but warranty doesn't cover anything below 220V or above 240V. We will be using 480 to 208V Xfmrs and adjusting the taps to comfortably get in that voltage range.


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## frenchelectrican

Deep Cover said:


> Honestly, I don't think we are even pulling a neutral. Nothing in the place needs 480/277. We will be setting a Xfmr per 2 machines. Lighting panels will have a 480 to 120/208 Xfmr feeding them.
> 
> The machines are very voltage sensitive. If I'm remembering correctly, they are spec'ed at 230V but warranty doesn't cover anything below 220V or above 240V. We will be using 480 to 208V Xfmrs and adjusting the taps to comfortably get in that voltage range.


 
DC.,

I hope that was a typo on that part of your comment so can you correct moi if this was a error ?

I did wrote a underline to point it there.

Merci,
Marc


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## Deep Cover

Unless I'm missing something, I don't think I misspoke.


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## frenchelectrican

Deep Cover said:


> Unless I'm missing something, I don't think I misspoke.


 
ok Fair engough but what I am refering to the 480 X 208 transfomer avce taps I am not sure but if my memory serve me rights that you will have 2 or 3 taps up and 2 or 3 taps down useally at 2.5 % voltage step so if you did use the 208 secondary and crank it up to the top end you may able use them.

Otherwise a convential 480X 240 delta transfomer with taps will work equally well.

Merci,
Marc


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## Deep Cover

frenchelectrican said:


> ok Fair engough but what I am refering to the 480 X 208 transfomer avce taps I am not sure but if my memory serve me rights that you will have 2 or 3 taps up and 2 or 3 taps down useally at 2.5 % voltage step so if you did use the 208 secondary and crank it up to the top end you may able use them.
> 
> Otherwise a convential 480X 240 delta transfomer with taps will work equally well.
> 
> Merci,
> Marc


We ran into this before, I believe we went with the 208V secondaries because it was easier to get in that spec'd range than with the 240V version.

Something is telling me that the machines ran better at the lower end of that range. The problem I am having is that we wire a number of different machines for a couple different customers and they are getting mixed up in my head.


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## frenchelectrican

Deep Cover said:


> We ran into this before, I believe we went with the 208V secondaries because it was easier to get in that spec'd range than with the 240V version.
> 
> Something is telling me that the machines ran better at the lower end of that range. The problem I am having is that we wire a number of different machines for a couple different customers and they are getting mixed up in my head.


 
If that was a European spec'ed system in there I know 220-230 volts they will be very happy on that voltage due the design of it.

And yeah I have done that before once with play around with the 208 taps useally you can get in the sweet spot what the convential 240 taps can not get into. so that make sense there.

Just make sure put a note on that transfomer is not actual 208 in case some goofball show up and think it is 208.

Merci,
Marc


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## varmit

Nice looking work!

You don't see many 4000 amp services installed any more. Many locations will not allow larger than 3000 amp due to transformer standardization and the high fault current allowed by the larger transformer.


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## chicken steve

varmit said:


> Nice looking work!
> 
> You don't see many 4000 amp services installed any more. Many locations will not allow larger than 3000 amp due to transformer standardization and the *high fault current *allowed by the larger transformer.


This was my concern on a similar 480/277 4000A Y ....









The Xformer vault was special order, being larger than normal

It was parked about 40' (as the wire runs) from the Eaton switchgear

It's been over a year, and neither the poco engineer, nor eaton can tell me what the AIC is, or if the gear can handle it

The state has also not signed off, yet it's been active all along

do i have a problem?

~CS~


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## chicken steve

and again, from a similar situation>



> Hi (poco eng)
> 
> I'm a bit concerned about the fault current where i'm working @ the old (polished turd) building, and would like to ask you for a fault current request on it
> 
> The switchgear is Eaton, a placard on it states "lowest rating of any connected component, or 42KA max"
> 
> We have an installed Eaton 400A E-frame cat # KD3400F Style # 14920D81G03
> 
> the service entrance conductors are 600 KCmil Aluminum, the masts are 92" each X6 (2040amps via 310.16)
> 
> the nuetrals are all 250 KCmil (T250.66)
> 
> It's something like 16' to the pole, 3 100KV xformers there
> 
> I gotta be the one to turn this all on so, i'm a tad nervous
> 
> any help appreciated


guess who had his arc flash suit on , turning this on w/o this info....

~CS~


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## chicken steve

oh and, i'd like to throw Eaton's tech support in a volcano too

~CS~


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## Ultrafault

The piece of information you are missing is the transformer impedance. That number is crucial in calculating afc.

The available fault current is ignored by to many so called electricians and engineers. Its appalling considering the danger involved.


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## ampman

great pics this is the stuff i like to see


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## chicken steve

Ultrafault said:


> The piece of information you are missing is the transformer impedance. That number is crucial in calculating afc.
> 
> The available fault current is ignored by to many so called electricians and engineers. Its appalling considering the danger involved.




and how in the blue F am i supposed to know that Ultra? 

the poco supplies the serving xformers, not my company

I fill out a_ 'fault current request'_ form with everything i've installed

THEY do the bloody math!

~CS~


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## seabee41

At the rail yard where I work we have a lot of power in our house and the other day I saw a so called electrician putting in a load center from the ugly orange. I'm pretty sure our available fault current is more than 10k


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## Bootss

can you say what the price of the project is, or is that a secret?


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## Cow

chicken steve said:


> and how in the blue F am i supposed to know that Ultra?
> 
> the poco supplies the serving xformers, not my company
> 
> I fill out a_ 'fault current request'_ form with everything i've installed
> 
> THEY do the bloody math!
> 
> ~CS~


Over here for pole mount transformers the sheet the POCO gave us says to use 10K. For utility owned padmounts, we simply open the door and read the impedance off the nameplate.


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## Deep Cover

Lep said:


> can you say what the price of the project is, or is that a secret?


If you are asking me, I have absolutely NO idea. I do know that I wouldn't want to pay the bill though.:no:


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## Big John

chicken steve said:


> and how in the blue F am i supposed to know that...?


 You can at least do some napkin math and try to figure out if you're in the ballpark.

A simple way to remember it is that your transformer impedance uses the same multiplier as your short-circuit current: 5% impedance needs to be multiplied by 20 to get 100%. So take your FLA and also multiply it by 20 to get your short-circuit current.

For three 100kVA and guessing worst-case 2% impedance I get an available fault current of 18,050A (100 / 2% = 50 * 361A). But that's also at the transformer terminals and that does not include the added impedance of the service lateral.


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## denny3992

frenchelectrican said:


> If that was a European spec'ed system in there I know 220-230 volts they will be very happy on that voltage due the design of it.
> 
> And yeah I have done that before once with play around with the 208 taps useally you can get in the sweet spot what the convential 240 taps can not get into. so that make sense there.
> 
> Just make sure put a note on that transfomer is not actual 208 in case some goofball show up and think it is 208.
> 
> Merci,
> Marc


Ive seen european 220v single ph to grnd, would our 220v ph to phase operate the same equip?


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## Ultrafault

Big John said:


> You can at least do some napkin math and try to figure out if you're in the ballpark.
> 
> A simple way to remember it is that your transformer impedance uses the same multiplier as your short-circuit current: 5% impedance needs to be multiplied by 20 to get 100%. So take your FLA and also multiply it by 20 to get your short-circuit current.
> 
> For three 100kVA and guessing worst-case 2% impedance I get an available fault current of 18,050A (100 / 2% = 50 * 361A). But that's also at the transformer terminals and that does not include the added impedance of the service lateral.


I was always led to believe 3 100kva transformers equals 300kva. I have been wrong before but would open delta not equal 200kva not 66kva.


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## varmit

denny3992 said:


> Ive seen european 220v single ph to grnd, would our 220v ph to phase operate the same equip?


Yes, the equipment will work fine as long as the frequency difference is not an issue. Euro is 50 Hz. US is 60 Hz.


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## Ultrafault

chicken steve said:


> and how in the blue F am i supposed to know that Ultra?
> 
> the poco supplies the serving xformers, not my company
> 
> I fill out a 'fault current request' form with everything i've installed
> 
> THEY do the bloody math!
> 
> ~CS~


The math is simple even if getting the info you need may not be.


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## frenchelectrican

denny3992 said:


> Ive seen european 220v single ph to grnd, would our 220v ph to phase operate the same equip?


Most case useally not a issue as Varmit mention frequency do not affect the driven loads. ( very few will affect it but as long the manufacter do mention 60 HZ speed you will be ok if not RFI ., )



varmit said:


> Yes, the equipment will work fine as long as the frequency difference is not an issue. Euro is 50 Hz. US is 60 Hz.


As I mention very few items may affect but majorty of the time it don't affect unless there is specfic item that need to be control the speed ( due the 60 HZ can make some item overspeed and need to be regeared or rebelted to correct driven speed )

Merci,
Marc


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## chicken steve

Ultrafault said:


> The math is simple even if getting the info you need may not be.


yes it is Ultra

in fact , some of the major OCPD manufacturers provide free aic calc software for it

fat lotta good it'll do if you've switchgear installed already

~CS~


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## Big John

Ultrafault said:


> I was always led to believe 3 100kva transformers equals 300kva. I have been wrong before but would open delta not equal 200kva not 66kva.


 On a closed-delta you do add the ratings to get the total capacity, but for an open delta you're actually dividing by the square-root of 3 to get the capacity: 300kVA would drop down to 173kVA.


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## Pete m.

chicken steve said:


> yes it is Ultra
> 
> in fact , some of the major OCPD manufacturers provide free aic calc software for it
> 
> fat lotta good it'll do if you've switchgear installed already
> 
> ~CS~


I hope that the gear you've installed was spec'd by the project engineer. Just in case if/when you do get the fault current from the utility if the OCPD's need to be changed.

Pete


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## SteveBayshore

Deep Cover said:


> Honestly, I don't think we are even pulling a neutral. Nothing in the place needs 480/277. We will be setting a Xfmr per 2 machines. Lighting panels will have a 480 to 120/208 Xfmr feeding them.


I have cut up floors and footings for smaller services. 
If the pad mount transformer is 277/480 you will be pulling neutrals, 250.24(C). Our power company, JCP&L (First Energy) will not allow us to connect a 480 volt delta transformer to their distribution system. If you have a 480 delta secondary system, you will be installing a ground detector system, 250.21(B), or grounding one of the phase legs so the ungrounded phase legs have a voltage potential to ground. 
Does your 3R enclosure layout meet the angle pull requirements of 314.28?:001_huh:


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## chicken steve

Pete m. said:


> I hope that the gear you've installed was spec'd by the project engineer. Just in case if/when you do get the fault current from the utility if the OCPD's need to be changed.
> 
> Pete


It was spec'd by an architectural firm which wasn't paid by the project owners, so they left the job 

Unfortunately this firm had _no idea_ of the Xformer proximity , or impedance for that matter


Worse, the state passed the 'effin thing w/o ANY question 

I have this on my 'list' of to-do's

I's like the state_ 'dept of public safety'_ to be liable for their decisions, and NOT my company

~CS~


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## Ultrafault

I was working at a school that had a 300kva transformer and all the breakers had a 10ka rating.


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## xaH

Ultrafault said:


> I was working at a school that had a 300kva transformer and all the breakers had a 10ka rating.


Cool, panels filled with grenades.


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## SteveBayshore

Ultrafault said:


> I was working at a school that had a 300kva transformer and all the breakers had a 10ka rating.


Might have been right. The size of the transformer is only one part of a multistep short circuit calculation.


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## Ultrafault

SteveBayshore said:


> Might have been right. The size of the transformer is only one part of a multistep short circuit calculation.


I thought it was a good example becuase it was so patently obvious. Yes I understand in extreme cases10 ka could be ok. I have not seen a case where it would be ok on a 300kva tranny. Perhaps the utility hates money and installs 5% tansformers maybe the service conductors are too small for a 1200 amp service (or the load to be served). 

I didnt call the utility to find out the info because ultimately there is nothing I could or would do. Ive done too many of these calcs to think its right though.


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## piperunner

para19 said:


> I noticed you went EMT from the panel to the XFMR. I have always have to transition to flex or use Teck due to vibration issue. But I am in Canada, just curious.


Your not alone Canada normal electrical contractors in the USA use flex just like you all our jobs the engineer on record always shows this on every job in detail on the contract drawings from 1969 till today . Its the folks would work none spec work or fly by nites who dont know any better. Its all about common since sound and vibration makes things come loose over time you dont hard pipe a transformer . Plus its in our specs we even put vibration springs or pads under the frames in addition to the factory junk that they supply sound travels down the conduit motors transformers anything that vibrates or hums . :thumbsup:


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## Jlarson

para19 said:


> transition to flex or use Teck due to vibration issue.


Unnecessary. Just another urban legend electrical code.


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## sbrn33

piperunner said:


> Your not alone Canada normal electrical contractors in the USA use flex just like you all our jobs the engineer on record always shows this on every job in detail on the contract drawings from 1969 till today . Its the folks would work none spec work or fly by nites who dont know any better. Its all about common since sound and vibration makes things come loose over time you dont hard pipe a transformer . Plus its in our specs we even put vibration springs or pads under the frames in addition to the factory junk that they supply sound travels down the conduit motors transformers anything that vibrates or hums . :thumbsup:


Do the flex connectors come loose? Should I double locknut my transformers. Is that why they use that little set screw thing on doorbell transformers.


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## Jlarson

sbrn33 said:


> Do the flex connectors come loose?


The flex connector locknuts and screws are immune to vibration, duh. :laughing:


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## Going_Commando

piperunner said:


> Your not alone Canada normal electrical contractors in the USA use flex just like you all our jobs the engineer on record always shows this on every job in detail on the contract drawings from 1969 till today . Its the folks would work none spec work or fly by nites who dont know any better. Its all about common since sound and vibration makes things come loose over time you dont hard pipe a transformer . Plus its in our specs we even put vibration springs or pads under the frames in addition to the factory junk that they supply sound travels down the conduit motors transformers anything that vibrates or hums . :thumbsup:


Your sentence structure makes my brain hurt.


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## Jlarson

Deep Cover said:


> about 100 CNC machines and some other stuff.


So you will be driving a lot of ground rods and doing a lot of hacking when it comes to grounding cause the CNC manufacture claims that's the only way the machine will work huh?


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## chicken steve

well, they didn't have those nuke proof duck & cover school desks learning the Kings English Commando...:jester: ~CS~


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## piperunner

Yes they can come loose anything can but its sound thats important on some jobs which from your comments you have never been or done a job that is sound proof . Just stick with your box stores and romex 

Sound is transmitted thats the key word vibration makes sound D--- A-- .:laughing:


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## chicken steve

Jlarson said:


> So you will be driving a lot of ground rods and doing a lot of hacking when it comes to grounding cause the CNC manufacture claims that's the only way the machine will work huh?



I had a customer _insist_ i drive a GRod for each of his CNC's 

~CS~


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## piperunner

Going_Commando said:


> Your sentence structure makes my brain hurt.



Dont read it i think your brain hurts normally .:thumbsup:


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## Jlarson

chicken steve said:


> I had a customer _insist_ i drive a GRod for each of his CNC's
> 
> ~CS~


I've had cnc techs demand a rod and no EGC, babbling on and on about a zero volt ground reference and blah, blah. Turned out to be a ****ty design in some serial comm stuff, couple serial isolators fixed it right up.


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## Going_Commando

piperunner said:


> Dont read it i think your brain hurts normally .:thumbsup:


Sure thing, bro. :whistling2:


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## sbrn33

Pierunner, you are right on. I have never done a "soundproof" installation. Most of mine make a clicking sound when the breaker trips.
I do do quite a bit of service work and have never had a service call due to sound or vibration because of loose fittings. Your words were 

"none spec work or fly by nites who dont know any better. Its all about common since sound and vibration makes things come loose over time you dont hard pipe a transformer"

You are a guy who works by "specs" but if you would just stop and use a little bit of common "since" I think you could be an even better electrician. When you start learning why to do something instead of doing it just because the prints say so you will be on top of the heap.


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## piperunner

sbrn33 said:


> Pierunner, you are right on. I have never done a "soundproof" installation. Most of mine make a clicking sound when the breaker trips.
> I do do quite a bit of service work and have never had a service call due to sound or vibration because of loose fittings. Your words were
> 
> "none spec work or fly by nites who dont know any better. Its all about common since sound and vibration makes things come loose over time you dont hard pipe a transformer"
> 
> You are a guy who works by "specs" but if you would just stop and use a little bit of common "since" I think you could be an even better electrician. When you start learning why to do something instead of doing it just because the prints say so you will be on top of the heap.


Well thanks after 35 plus years in the trade you have opened up my eyes i have seen the lite i will be a better electrician Monday iam going into the electrical engineers trailer and iam going to tell him that on ET they said , we dont need flex on transformers its unnecessary 
weve been screwing this up for years and its stopping today .

Try working on big project and run straight into a transformer good luck .

My personal thought on this it vibrates the conduit bro . Not your little 30 kva or 15 kva stuff or your bell transformer you install. Try 1000 kva or a 500kva with lots of conduits do you hard pipe it your totally out of context you dont have a clue to what your talking about . 
You have been in a plant too long do you have ear plugs ?

And yes the engineer is correct on this one its not voo doo it called common sense .
By the way ive been a electrician before you and most on this forum have been born bro.


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## sbrn33

Gosh you must work on really big jobs. None of us have ever been on a big job like that. You must be really smart.


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## chicken steve

Jlarson said:


> I've had cnc techs demand a rod and no EGC, babbling on and on about a zero volt ground reference and blah, blah. Turned out to be a ****ty design in some serial comm stuff, couple serial isolators fixed it right up.


Sure, but that _blah blah babble_ is worth XXXX$ hr Jl...:thumbsup: ~CS~


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## chicken steve

piperunner said:


> Well thanks after 35 plus years in the trade you have opened up my eyes i have seen the lite i will be a better electrician Monday iam going into the electrical engineers trailer and iam going to tell him that on ET they said , we dont need flex on transformers its unnecessary
> weve been screwing this up for years and its stopping today ..


With all due respect, he's probably gonna stuff a prozac in yer piehole & tell you to phone home Runner.....


~CS~


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## chicken steve

sbrn33 said:


> Gosh you must work on really big jobs. None of us have ever been on a big job like that. You must be really smart.


sexual intellectual is the PC way to call someone an 'effin' idiot 33

~CS~


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## sbrn33

piperunner said:


> And yes the engineer is correct on this one its not voo doo it called common sense .
> By the way ive been a electrician before you and most on this forum have been born bro.


How do you know the engineer is correct. Have you ever questioned him on it?
Don't kid yourself oldtimer. I did new construction for a long time but I advanced to industrial after a few years. Some people just need a challenge.


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## Deep Cover

Jlarson said:


> So you will be driving a lot of ground rods and doing a lot of hacking when it comes to grounding cause the CNC manufacture claims that's the only way the machine will work huh?


Funny you should say that. The last machine we did (for a different customer) had a 3' rod with it. It also had a 10' ground wire wired in and ready to go to the rod. The tech that was commissioning the machine told us to take that ground wire and go to building steel with it.


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## drumnut08

sbrn33 said:


> How do you know the engineer is correct. Have you ever questioned him on it?
> Don't kid yourself oldtimer. I did new construction for a long time but I advanced to industrial after a few years. Some people just need a challenge.


By advanced , do you mean waiting around half a day for a work permit , lol ! Any industrial plant I ever worked in equated to about 4 hours of actual wrench time with all the waiting around required . Not for me ! I agree with pipe runner on this also . Good practice , common sense and job specs that you won't be able to fight , dictate just using flex for xfmr's . It's not worth the battle .


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## Deep Cover

piperunner said:


> Well thanks after 35 plus years in the trade you have opened up my eyes i have seen the lite i will be a better electrician Monday iam going into the electrical engineers trailer and iam going to tell him that on ET they said , we dont need flex on transformers its unnecessary
> weve been screwing this up for years and its stopping today .
> 
> Try working on big project and run straight into a transformer good luck .
> 
> My personal thought on this it vibrates the conduit bro . Not your little 30 kva or 15 kva stuff or your bell transformer you install. Try 1000 kva or a 500kva with lots of conduits do you hard pipe it your totally out of context you dont have a clue to what your talking about .
> You have been in a plant too long do you have ear plugs ?
> 
> And yes the engineer is correct on this one its not voo doo it called common sense .
> By the way ive been a electrician before you and most on this forum have been born bro.


I wonder why the nuts and bolts holding the Xfmr to the wall don't come loose.:whistling2:


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## piperunner

Deep Cover said:


> I wonder why the nuts and bolts holding the Xfmr to the wall don't come loose.:whistling2:


Have you ever turned on a large transformer in a lets say a  office building or a high rise how about a court house or a any building with some office space thats on a upper floor . Its all sound i guess you dont get it bro . Two 500 kva transformers make lots of sound and it goes down the pipe connected to it the hum like that hum in your head that makes it hard for you to understand this . If you put Mason SPDN vibration pads on it wont Da
:whistling2:


----------



## Deep Cover

I don't see any 500 KVA Xfmrs in my pictures...


----------



## piperunner

sbrn33 said:


> How do you know the engineer is correct. Have you ever questioned him on it?
> Don't kid yourself oldtimer. I did new construction for a long time but I advanced to industrial after a few years. Some people just need a challenge.


Why would i question it because it works and has been working this way for years thats why we do it common sense which lacks on this site . I guess most of you folks on this forum have never done a real electrical install because you dont hard pipe a transformer in period . What challenge i repaired more electrical then you have ever seen kid . USN Navy Nimitz EM 2ND class get a job kid you dont have a clue to who you are talking to stick with your ET BUDDIES then you can feel like you know it all . Turn on a 500 kva transformer and sit next to it tell me what you hear while your texting ET .:whistling2:


----------



## piperunner

Deep Cover said:


> I don't see any 500 KVA Xfmrs in my pictures...


Well this week when we set ours on the house keeping pads with the spring isolators ill post a few for ya .:thumbup:


----------



## Deep Cover

drumnut08 said:


> By advanced , do you mean waiting around half a day for a work permit , lol ! Any industrial plant I ever worked in equated to about 4 hours of actual wrench time with all the waiting around required . Not for me ! I agree with pipe runner on this also . Good practice , common sense and job specs that you won't be able to fight , dictate just using flex for xfmr's . It's not worth the battle .


What battle? There is no code, and no specs.

"Hey, we need this machine wired up by Friday."
"Ok, I'll order the transformer."


----------



## sbrn33

piperunner said:


> Why would i question it because it works and has been working this way for years thats why we do it common sense which lacks on this site . I guess most of you folks on this forum have never done a real electrical install because you dont hard pipe a transformer in period . What challenge i repaired more electrical then you have ever seen kid . USN Navy Nimitz EM 2ND class get a job kid you dont have a clue to who you are talking to stick with your ET BUDDIES then you can feel like you know it all . Turn on a 500 kva transformer and set next to it tell me what you hear .:whistling2:


I hate tell you sunshine but I probably have more experience than you. Especially if you are counting your Navy experience(although thank you for your service). Don't act like you are smarter than everyone else just because you can read a print that someone else designed. We have guys on here that have done larger jobs and smaller jobs that required thinking for yourself. Any monkey can follow a blueprint.
Just so you know I can't even remember hard piping a transformer larger than 50KVA.


----------



## BBQ

piperunner said:


> Well this week when we set ours on the house keeping pads with the spring isolators ill post a few for ya .:thumbup:


Funny, I did a 1000 kva, no isolators, sitting right on the slab, no flex, EMT going all the way in and out yet it was still not that loud. How could that be?

Could it have to do with the fact that the core and coils are mounted on isolators inside the transformer?:whistling2:

But gee, pipeman says no, that is wrong and my 30 years in the trade is nothing compared to pipes 35 years in following prints and designing nothing. :laughing:


----------



## Big John

piperunner said:


> ...I guess most of you folks on this forum have never done a real electrical install because you dont hard pipe a transformer in period....


 C'mon man. While I agree that flex is useful for deadening noise, I actually prefer to hard-pipe transformers when noise isn't a concern, and have done it any number of times including the secondaries on a couple 20MVA. 

Further, I also routinely see it in plants I work in, so it's just not accurate to make blanket statements like that.


----------



## Jlarson

Deep Cover said:


> go to building steel with it.


That's where we usually go. 

Any time I go on a call for CNC issues I know to bring the rubber boots cause I know the grounding BS is gonna get deep. :laughing:


----------



## Jlarson

BBQ said:


> Funny, I did a 1000 kva, no isolators, sitting right on the slab, no flex, EMT


I've done them in EMT, PVC, RMC, IMC, even wireway. Guess the specs and engineers that said it was ok were imaginary? :laughing:

Our own specs we use on Design Build stuff are the same way, no BS.


----------



## Jlarson

chicken steve said:


> Sure, but that _blah blah babble_ is worth XXXX$ hr Jl...:thumbsup: ~CS~


Even for XXXX$ they won't write a letter saying they will accept responsibility for equipment/property damage or injury or fatality caused by their recommended but totally incorrect ideas on grounding and suggesting we violate the NEC.


----------



## BBQ

Jlarson said:


> I've done them in EMT, PVC, RMC, IMC, even wireway.


Me, flex, LFMC, EMT, wireway and PVC.



> Our own specs we use on Design Build stuff are the same way, no BS.


On the 1000 kva job we were the lead contractor, I had a general contractor working under me. He had to dig holes, make pads and build walls where I told him.

The job was a 480 volt 3000 amp service to replace a 4000 amp 208 service.

My entire prints were a hand drawn 8x11 paper with a hand drawn one line. The rest was up to me.


----------



## piperunner

sbrn33 said:


> I hate tell you sunshine but I probably have more experience than you. Especially if you are counting your Navy experience(although thank you for your service). Don't act like you are smarter than everyone else just because you can read a print that someone else designed. We have guys on here that have done larger jobs and smaller jobs that required thinking for yourself. Any monkey can follow a blueprint.
> Just so you know I can't even remember hard piping a transformer larger than 50KVA.


Well you must be dreaming bro you forgot the word TO before tell learn how to write correctly first . If you are designing it then it must be small time because you dont design anything unless your a stamped engineer were i work so it must be some fly by nite factory with low pay and hope it works thing . Any monkey can wire up a I/O cabinet you control guys think your special iam not impressed. :laughing:


----------



## Jlarson

BBQ said:


> flex, LFMC,


We do a lot in flexible stuff too. Flex, mc, TC, sealtight, carflex. There is a place for every way, no one size fits all.


----------



## piperunner

BBQ said:


> Me, flex, LFMC, EMT, wireway and PVC.
> 
> 
> 
> On the 1000 kva job we were the lead contractor, I had a general contractor working under me. He had to dig holes, make pads and build walls where I told him.
> 
> The job was a 480 volt 3000 amp service to replace a 4000 amp 208 service.
> 
> My entire prints were a hand drawn 8x11 paper with a hand drawn one line. The rest was up to me.


Well were impresses BBQ you layed out a transformer pad whooo for a 1000kva by the way if its underground theres no connection to the frame so you dont need flex we just stub up under it . We install flex on the ones inside on the upper floors i guess you cant read my post . What have you designed a pad or a service for a box store maybe a 7 -11 .


----------



## Big John

piperunner said:


> ....Any monkey can wire up a I/O cabinet you control guys think your special iam not impressed. :laughing:


 Holy hypocrisy, guy. :laughing: That's basically the point of this whole damn thread: No single skill makes a man an Electrician Jesus. 

I can count on one hand the number of electricians I've worked with who truly were as awesome in real life as they were in their own heads.


----------



## Deep Cover

I have two theories on Piperunner's posts tonight...

1) He is purposely perpetuating the stereotypical union mentality
2) There/he is a reason stereotypes are formed


----------



## piperunner

Big John said:


> Holy hypocrisy, guy. :laughing: That's basically the point of this whole damn thread: No single skill makes a man an Electrician Jesus.
> 
> I can count on one hand the number of electricians I've worked with who truly were as awesome in real life as they were in their own heads.


Well holy smokes your going to have a stroke there big john .
can you read the post if you pipe it into the frame you use a flex connection if you stub up from under it via the slab no flex simple we dont connect the conduit to the frame physically with PVC bells . Upper floors no hard pipe vibration flex hang on a wall flex . 

Under a transformer from the dirt slab with house keep pad no pipe you just stub up theres no physical connection to frame da.

Cable tray is not pipe MV cable its your vibration eliminator da.

Big power tranformers like 100 MVA or lets say 100 mega watt 35kv to 165 kv thats in a yard not a commercial building a power plant is not a office . A industrial plant is not a office but it depends on were its at .

My point is you install a transformer in a commercial building you flex it in hard piping is not done .

Screw the NEC its minimal .:laughing:


----------



## xaH

Deep Cover said:


> I have two theories on Piperunner's posts tonight...
> 
> 1) He is purposely perpetuating the stereotypical union mentality
> 2) There/he is a reason stereotypes are formed


Believe it or not, Piperunner is non-union and works for Tri City Electric in Orlando, FL (huge non-union shop)

Secondly, he does reinforce every construction worker stereotype in the book.


----------



## BBQ

piperunner said:


> Well were impresses BBQ you layed out a transformer pad whooo .


No, I designed the entire job, from layout to wire size, to the shape of of the electrical room itself. No prints to hold my hand, no engineer to make my decisions for me. :thumbsup:



> for a 1000kva by the way if its underground theres no connection to the frame so you dont need flex we just stub up under it .


Damn, I will have to tell square d they designed it wrong, you could not feed this underground it had to be fed overhead. Stupid Square D not playing by pipe runners rules. :laughing:



> We install flex on the ones inside on the upper floors i guess you cant read my post .


I can read your posts fine, they are funny as hell. :laughing:

This 1000 was inside on the first floor, it could have been flexed in but there was no reason too.



> What have you designed a pad or a service for a box store maybe a 7 -11


I have. :laughing:


----------



## BBQ

piperunner said:


> My point is you install a transformer in a commercial building you flex it in hard piping is not done .


But it is done, you are wrong. :laughing:


----------



## piperunner

BBQ said:


> But it is done, you are wrong. :laughing:


Well i guess you hate it when someone comes on and tells BBQ your wrong . Were not impressed BBQ any monkey can draw up a design for a service or a small electrical job so whats the point what does that have to do with a transformer that sets on springs . Iam glad i only come on once in awhile and dont spend my life here talking about what you wish you did lets see a photo of that 1000 kva transformer and your install . Talk about it but i personally think your full of it. 
You spend all day posting so how could you have time to design a job .:laughing:
We will go by the NEC code and the engineer i think they know more than you bro.


----------



## BBQ

piperunner said:


> Well i guess you hate it when someone comes on and tells BBQ your wrong .


It happens but not in this case. :laughing:

Some transformers are flexed in, some are not regardless of how you see it done or believe it should be done. 



> Were not impressed BBQ any monkey can draw up a design for a service or a small electrical job so whats the point


Really?

How many 3000 amp services have you designed, installed and passed inspection on your own? 



> Iam glad i only come on once in awhile


I am glad you only come here to brag once in a while too.:laughing:



> and dont spend my life here talking about what you wish you did lets see a photo of that 1000 kva transformer and your install . Talk about it but i personally think your full of it.


Here you go ....











And here is a 500 I did with wireway 













> You spend all day posting so how could you have time to design a job .:laughing:



I am just that good. :laughing:



> We will go by the NEC code and the engineer i think they know more than you bro.


In many cases they do, but the NEC does not require flex and nether do all engineers. 

If you could think for yourself it would make you a better electrician. :whistling2:


----------



## Jlarson

Every time I see a pic of that GE "50 pounds of transformer in a 5 pound box" I cringe.

I showed that to our EE a while back, the pic of all the fans in the bottom. The response was simply "oh hell no" :laughing:


----------



## BBQ

Jlarson said:


> Every time I see a pic of that GE "50 pounds of transformer in a 5 pound box" I cringe.
> 
> I showed that to our EE a while back, the pic of all the fans in the bottom. The response was simply "oh hell no" :laughing:


:laughing:

But it is a transform-more. :laughing:


----------



## Jlarson

It might might transform-more money into profit that GE won't pay taxes on but that's about it :laughing:


----------



## xaH

piperunner said:


> We will go by the NEC code and the engineer i think they know more than you bro.


Are these the same engineers who spec ultra low impedance grounding for a premises wiring system? The same grounding system that you think makes an electrical system "better"? :laughing:


----------



## ghostwriter

I have found that electricians on "Big" jobs, become just installers. No thinking is involved

Designers, engineers layout everything on the drawings.

Take these electricians to a "design build job" and the first thing they ask for is a complete set of electrical drawings:laughing:


----------



## HARRY304E

Deep Cover said:


> We have just started the largest service I will have ever installed...4000A 480V 3Ø. The customer currently rents half of the building, but will be taking over the other half very soon. They are going to be moving all of their production to this building...about 100 CNC machines and some other stuff.
> 
> The metering will be done outside the parking lot along the lot line. Then it will come overhead to a new pole and drop down to a customer supplied, owned, and maintained, pad-mount Xfmr. I do not have the specs on the Xfmr now, but the pad is going to be 9'x10'.
> 
> I'll be updating this thread as the job rolls along.
> 
> Wall where the service will enter.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Old (Existing) Pole
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Weather Proof "J Box"
> 48"X48"X16"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (11) 3½" EMT out the back, (11) 4"RMC→PVC runs to Xfmr
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Backside


Good stuff.


----------



## SteveBayshore

Ultrafault said:


> I was working at a school that had a 300kva transformer and all the breakers had a 10ka rating.


First chance that I had to pull out a copy of our POCO data sheets:
300 kVA - 34.5 kV x 208/120 = 23,300 amp (fault current at transformer terminals)
300 kVA - 34.5 kV x 480/277 = 8,800 amp
300 kVA - 12.5 kV x 208/120 = 40,000 amp
300 kVA - 12.5 kV x 480/277 = 19,550 amp
"faults are based on a distance of 100' from the substation buss"

Now, I've installed transformers both ways depending on the situation.:thumbsup::thumbsup: Can't we all agree to disagree and just get along without being nasty?:thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## piperunner

BBQ said:


> It happens but not in this case. :laughing:
> 
> Some transformers are flexed in, some are not regardless of how you see it done or believe it should be done.
> 
> 
> 
> Really?
> 
> How many 3000 amp services have you designed, installed and passed inspection on your own?
> 
> 
> 
> I am glad you only come here to brag once in a while too.:laughing:
> 
> 
> 
> Here you go ....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And here is a 500 I did with wireway
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am just that good. :laughing:
> 
> 
> 
> In many cases they do, but the NEC does not require flex and nether do all engineers.
> 
> If you could think for yourself it would make you a better electrician. :whistling2:


Well iam really impress with your design skills BBQ a 3000amp service that must take all day to do . Your photo on top looks fine but it also looks like a copy if not get a new camera .
The photo on the bottom is a BBQ design for sure i would not post that for anyone to see if thats your work iam glad iam just a monkey construction worker because it looks like crap work to me .:thumbup:

But the best part is whats that flex on the right side for BBQ didnt have enough EMT that day or did you find that on your last design job . Wires are bent nothing looks the same its a paralleled run every thing must be exactly the same length whats wrong here you didnt follow the NEC rules . The only thing cool here is if thats a transformer type with the cooling fans inside with those temp breakers .


----------



## drumnut08

piperunner said:


> Well iam really impress with your design skills BBQ a 3000amp service that must take all day to do . Your photo on top looks fine but it also looks like a copy if not get a new camera .
> The photo on the bottom is a BBQ design for sure i would not post that for anyone to see if thats your work iam glad iam just a monkey construction worker because it looks like crap work to me .:thumbup:
> 
> But the best part is whats that flex on the right side for BBQ didnt have enough EMT that day or did you find that on your last design job . Wires are bent nothing looks the same its a paralleled run every thing must be exactly the same length whats wrong here you didnt follow the NEC rules . The only thing cool here is if that transformer type with the cooling fans inside with those temp breakers .


You two need to hug it out , lol ! Where's the love ? Oh never mind , I forgot where I was for a minute , lol !


----------



## xaH

piperunner said:


> iam just a monkey



We know, it's painfully obvious.


----------



## piperunner

ghostwriter said:


> I have found that electricians on "Big" jobs, become just installers. No thinking is involved
> 
> Designers, engineers layout everything on the drawings.
> 
> Take these electricians to a "design build job" and the first thing they ask for is a complete set of electrical drawings:laughing:



Well what would you like me to design for you NY we do design build jobs all the time . I left NJ & NY because i couldt stand the weather or the trash but also the work sucked when it happened . Get some flex and install it the correct way its simple .


----------



## piperunner

xaH said:


> We know, it's painfully obvious.



Your a funny guy


----------



## walkerj

Big John said:


> Holy hypocrisy, guy. :laughing: That's basically the point of this whole damn thread: No single skill makes a man an Electrician Jesus.
> 
> I can count on one hand the number of electricians I've worked with who truly were as awesome in real life as they were in their own heads.


I guess you haven't met me :laughing:


----------



## Hackster

Is piperunner NICK?


----------



## walkerj

Hackster said:


> Is piperunner NICK?


Duh.
Take care


----------



## Hackster

walkerj said:


> Duh


????


----------



## xaH

piperunner said:


> Your a funny guy



Nick, if I apply for a job at TriCity Electric, can I use you for a reference?


----------



## xaH

Hackster said:


> Is piperunner NICK?


Yes.


----------



## walkerj

Hackster said:


> ????


Can you not tell by the sentence structure?
Also the same pictures he has posted here were posted on MH


----------



## Jlarson

BBQ said:


> :laughing:
> 
> But it is a transform-more. :laughing:


What's your preferred way to slice the 1/2" PVC for the wireway edging? I go cordless grinder and a thin wheel.


----------



## Hackster

walkerj said:


> Can you not tell by the sentence structure?
> Also the same pictures he has posted here were posted on MH


I didn't know NICK posted at Mike Holt's. I didn't know how you would know him by the name NICK, that's what I didn't understand.


----------



## Hackster

Jlarson said:


> What's your preferred way to slice the 1/2" PVC for the wireway edging? I go cordless grinder and a thin wheel.


I used to chain a grinder into a pipe vice at the right angle so that I could pull the pipe down the top of the vice to get a nice straight cut along the entire 10' length.

But then we started ordering that black flexible stuff that has the little metal pieces in it that you squeeze around the sharp edges. It came in long rolls and you cut it to fit your metal cutout. I believe it was made by the same company as Walker Duct.


----------



## walkerj

Hackster said:


> I didn't know NICK posted at Mike Holt's. I didn't know how you would know him by the name NICK, that's what I didn't understand.


Sentence structure and the pictures.
I'm still trying to figure out who you are though


----------



## xaH

Hackster said:


> I didn't know NICK posted at Mike Holt's. I didn't know how you would know him by the name NICK, that's what I didn't understand.


He used to go by Nick here on ET.


----------



## Hackster

walkerj said:


> Sentence structure and the pictures.
> I'm still trying to figure out who you are though


Who are you?


----------



## Hackster

At another forum that I don't think I'm supposed to mentioned, we used to call him Pink Nick.

I forget what happened, but one day he got mad at something so he took his ball and left, never to return. :laughing:


----------



## Jlarson

Hackster said:


> I used to chain a grinder into a pipe vice at the right angle so that I could pull the pipe down the top of the vice to get a nice straight cut along the entire 10' length.
> 
> But then we started ordering that black flexible stuff that has the little metal pieces in it that you squeeze around the sharp edges. It came in long rolls and you cut it to fit your metal cutout. I believe it was made by the same company as Walker Duct.


Yeah we get flexible stuff for the panel shop all the time, but sometimes what's in truck rules the day in the field. :laughing:


----------



## walkerj

Hackster said:


> Who are you?


Same person I've always been.


----------



## Hackster

Jlarson said:


> Yeah we get flexible stuff for the panel shop all the time, but sometimes what's in truck rules the day in the field. :laughing:


Send me some of that flexible stuff, now that I am on my own I have no one to steal stuff from anymore


----------



## piperunner

xaH said:


> Nick, if I apply for a job at TriCity Electric, can I use you for a reference?



Well you better use BBQs name that will be better just tell them he sent you he designs 3000amp services they will hire you on the spot .


----------



## Hackster

piperunner said:


> Well you better use BBQs name that will be better just tell them he sent you he designs 3000amp services they will hire you on the spot .


Yeah, it's definitely NICK.

How's it going buddy??? :thumbup:


----------



## Jlarson

Hackster said:


> Send me some of that flexible stuff, now that I am on my own I have no one to steal stuff from anymore


:lol: 

You can get the same stuff from auto parts stores.


----------



## piperunner

Hackster said:


> At another forum that I don't think I'm supposed to mentioned, we used to call him Pink Nick.
> 
> I forget what happened, but one day he got mad at something so he took his ball and left, never to return. :laughing:


Well it was the most boring site i have ever been on this one sucks also but at least i can see what others screw up and read all the fun post . 
If this is hack this is for you bro ---- --- ------- :laughing:


----------



## Hackster

piperunner said:


> Well it was the most boring site i have ever been on this one sucks also but at least i can see what others screw up and read all the fun post .
> If this is hack you know what this is for you bro ---- --- ------- :laughing:


Why you throw hate, Pink Nick?


----------



## xaH

piperunner said:


> Well you better use BBQs name that will be better just tell them he sent you he designs 3000amp services they will hire you on the spot .


No, I want to work on your crew so I can do really technically challenging work like gluing 20' sticks of 4" PVC conduit together all day.


----------



## piperunner

xaH said:


> No, I want to work on your crew so I can do really technically challenging work like gluing 20' sticks of 4" PVC conduit together all day.


Well we have a special job just for you because your so special and smart and its all design work its in the office . No glue no pipe all you need is to be able to stay on your knees all day long .:thumbup:


----------



## xaH

piperunner said:


> Well we have a special job just for you because your so special and smart and its all design work its in the office . No glue no pipe all you need is to be able to stay on your knees all day long .:thumbup:


Such an intelligent retort. :laughing:

On a serious note, why do you look down on educated people?


----------



## Going_Commando

xaH said:


> Such an intelligent retort. :laughing:
> 
> On a serious note, why do you look down on educated people?


Brain-power envy.


----------



## pistol pete

Man the title of this thread should be bring hip waders the **** is thick here... any one that can design build kicks the shnikes out of those needing a print ..


----------



## Next72969

pistol pete said:


> Man the title of this thread should be bring hip waders the **** is thick here... any one that can design build kicks the shnikes out of those needing a print ..


Calm down pete


----------



## SteveBayshore

Jlarson said:


> :lol:
> 
> You can get the same stuff from auto parts stores.


It's called profile gasket. McMaster has it in all sizes, delivered the next day.:thumbsup::thumbsup:


----------



## walkerj

pistol pete said:


> Man the title of this thread should be bring hip waders the **** is thick here... any one that can design build kicks the shnikes out of those needing a print ..


What about those who can do both?


----------



## drumnut08

walkerj said:


> What about those who can do both?


Sounds like anyone on this forum , just ask one of us , lol !


----------



## Hackster

For some reason people who specialize in pipe seem to get the most butt hurt about defending what they do. I don't know if they feel inadequate or what. 

The easy solution is not to worry about what other people think.


----------



## walkerj

Hackster said:


> For some reason people who specialize in pipe seem to get the most butt hurt about defending what they do. I don't know if they feel inadequate or what.
> 
> The easy solution is not to worry about what other people think.


You're just mad because you can't run pipe :laughing:


----------



## walkerj

Back on the topic of the OP, where are the updated pics?


----------



## Jlarson

SteveBayshore said:


> It's called profile gasket. McMaster has it in all sizes, delivered the next day.:thumbsup::thumbsup:


Hax only buys from box stores.


----------



## sbrn33

I don't understand the pipe thing either. Pipe is maybe the easiest thing to learn in this trade. Hell if you make a mistake you throw it away. If you make a mistake in other aspects of the trade all hell breaks loose.


----------



## gold

Hey Pink Nicks Here!!

Hi Pink Nick!!


This is like running into that weird cousin at a BBQ that always talks loud and only drinks Old Milwaukees BEST!!


You can do it Pink!! 

He's really a good guy but 30 years pvc glue made him a little aggressive.


----------



## Hackster

walkerj said:


> You're just mad because you can't run pipe :laughing:


That's the thing, I can. I was a union pipetrician for many years. I didn't feel any more or less special when doing that than when doing anything else.


----------



## Hackster

Jlarson said:


> Hax only buys from box stores.


I go to supply houses now, I even have credit accounts :thumbup:


----------



## BBQ

Jlarson said:


> What's your preferred way to slice the 1/2" PVC for the wireway edging? I go cordless grinder and a thin wheel.


I can't remember how that was cut, most likely a sawzal.


----------



## BBQ

piperunner said:


> Well iam really impress with your design skills BBQ a 3000amp service that must take all day to do . Your photo on top looks fine but it also looks like a copy if not get a new camera .
> The photo on the bottom is a BBQ design for sure i would not post that for anyone to see if thats your work iam glad iam just a monkey construction worker because it looks like crap work to me .:thumbup:
> 
> But the best part is whats that flex on the right side for BBQ didnt have enough EMT that day or did you find that on your last design job . Wires are bent nothing looks the same its a paralleled run every thing must be exactly the same length whats wrong here you didnt follow the NEC rules . The only thing cool here is if thats a transformer type with the cooling fans inside with those temp breakers .


You said I was lying and asked for pictures.

I provided some, you are welcome and I accept your apology for calling me a liar. :laughing:


----------



## xaH

sbrn33 said:


> I don't understand the pipe thing either. Pipe is maybe the easiest thing to learn in this trade. Hell if you make a mistake you throw it away. If you make a mistake in other aspects of the trade all hell breaks loose.



Haha...so true. I never even considered that. :laughing:


----------



## xaH

walkerj said:


> You're just mad because you can't run pipe :laughing:


I can run pipe but it takes me 30' of scrap for every 10' I run.


----------



## Ultrafault

SteveBayshore said:


> First chance that I had to pull out a copy of our POCO data sheets:
> 300 kVA - 34.5 kV x 208/120 = 23,300 amp (fault current at transformer terminals)
> 300 kVA - 34.5 kV x 480/277 = 8,800 amp
> 300 kVA - 12.5 kV x 208/120 = 40,000 amp
> 300 kVA - 12.5 kV x 480/277 = 19,550 amp
> "faults are based on a distance of 100' from the substation buss"
> 
> Now, I've installed transformers both ways depending on the situation.:thumbsup::thumbsup: Can't we all agree to disagree and just get along without being nasty?:thumbup::thumbup:


Please do explain what that chart means becuse it dosent make any sense to me in the context of fault current.


----------



## Jlarson

Hackster said:


> I go to supply houses now, I even have credit accounts :thumbup:


Wow. The hax is moving up :laughing:


----------



## SteveBayshore

Ultrafault said:


> Please do explain what that chart means becuse it dosent make any sense to me in the context of fault current.


It is the available fault current at the secondary side of a 300kVA transformer from our utility, for a general installation. You need to know what your secondary service voltage is and also the voltage of the primary distribution circuit. You would match up to one of the four. The available fault current for your specific project from the POCO is where you will start YOUR fault current calcs for YOUR installed equipment. Conduit type, conductor type, number of parallel runs and conductor lengths. If needed, I could pull out the formula; but I don't have it on the top of my head.:blink: Too much other stuff in there. Is it lunch time yet?


----------



## Ultrafault

SteveBayshore said:


> It is the available fault current at the secondary side of a 300kVA transformer from our utility, for a general installation. You need to know what your secondary service voltage is and also the voltage of the primary distribution circuit. You would match up to one of the four. The available fault current for your specific project from the POCO is where you will start YOUR fault current calcs for YOUR installed equipment. Conduit type, conductor type, number of parallel runs and conductor lengths. If needed, I could pull out the formula; but I don't have it on the top of my head.:blink: Too much other stuff in there. Is it lunch time yet?


Do you suppose that all utilitys use the same impedance transformers? 
Those numbers look too low for modern low impedance trannys. 
Remember all power lost due to transformer impedance is money out of the poco's pocket. 
I wouldn't trust a poco engineer to do my calcs for me. 
Those calcs do not assume infinite buss either, which is best practice. The buss suplied by the utility will change over time but never be lower. Furthermore any derating you could achieve by calculating buss is negated by the tolerances of impedance calculations for the transformer.


----------



## piperunner

Goldagain said:


> Hey Pink Nicks Here!!
> 
> Hi Pink Nick!!
> 
> 
> This is like running into that weird cousin at a BBQ that always talks loud and only drinks Old Milwaukees BEST!!
> 
> 
> You can do it Pink!!
> 
> He's really a good guy but 30 years pvc glue made him a little aggressive.


Well i must have missed this post Gold how come your here on ET just hanging out nothing going on someplace else . I know you and hack stay tight are you guys still dating . But usally after a flush i dont look back i guess you didnt go down yet i need a plumber now thanks . :thumbup:


----------



## Hackster

piperunner said:


> Well i must have missed this post Gold how come your here on ET just hanging out nothing going on someplace else . I know you and hack stay tight are you guys still dating . But usally after a flush i dont look back i guess you didnt go down yet i need a plumber now thanks . :thumbup:


Please be nice to me Pink Nick.


----------



## gold

piperunner said:


> Well i must have missed this post Gold how come your here on ET just hanging out nothing going on someplace else . I know you and hack stay tight are you guys still dating . But usally after a flush i dont look back i guess you didnt go down yet i need a plumber now thanks . :thumbup:


I thought you were a plumber?


----------



## Deep Cover

walkerj said:


> Back on the topic of the OP, where are the updated pics?


The pad mount is being delivered tomorrow. The only thing that has been done since I posted the pictures is the pad is now ready to go. I should have some new one's to post tomorrow.


----------



## EJPHI

Deep Cover said:


> The pad mount is being delivered tomorrow. The only thing that has been done since I posted the pictures is the pad is now ready to go. I should have some new one's to post tomorrow.


Looking forward to those pics from WI, even if they are only the backs of factories.

BTW what was that red suff sticking out of the earth near the existing service pole and the new tranny??

EJPHI


----------



## frenchelectrican

EJPHI said:


> Looking forward to those pics from WI, even if they are only the backs of factories.
> 
> BTW what was that red suff sticking out of the earth near the existing service pole and the new tranny??
> 
> EJPHI


The red stuff as you are refering that is the conduit for MV/HV conductor which the POCO will fish them in when the transfomer arrive.

Merci,
Marc


----------



## piperunner

Hackster said:


> Please be nice to me Pink Nick.


Well iam i think you and gold should just make up and continue on with your relationship go back to the closet . Tell gold to stop sending messages to me like that iam married go to church on sundays ill pray for him this week that might help . If you guys are gay thats fine its ok its a new age but keep it behind doors guys .
But if he sends any more photos of himself and you in that pink dress ill report him now hes out of control hes is now posting and wanting to run Pink Romex . I guess maybe if he had that color romex he would feel better about himself at work since thats all he thinks about .
So hack dont get mad at me for the color pink its gold hes into pink 
get him a new dress maybe some pink roses on gay day .:thumbup:


----------



## Hackster

piperunner said:


> Well iam i think you and gold should just make up and continue on with your relationship go back to the closet . Tell gold to stop sending messages to me like that iam married go to church on sundays ill pray for him this week that might help . If you guys are gay thats fine its ok its a new age but keep it behind doors guys .
> But if he sends any more photos of himself and you in that pink dress ill report him now hes out of control hes is now posting and wanting to run Pink Romex . I guess maybe if he had that color romex he would feel better about himself at work since thats all he thinks about .
> So hack dont get mad at me for the color pink its gold hes into pink
> get him a new dress maybe some pink roses on gay day .:thumbup:


Good morning Pink Nick!!! :clap:


----------



## gold

Whats with all the gay references from you Pink? Seriously why do you always go there? Are you one of those guys that always makes gay references on the job? No wonder you like "Running pipe" so much. I'm a pretty open book Pink, and there are like 1000 better ways to insult me. But, use what you know I guess.

:thumbsup:


----------



## Hackster

Goldagain said:


> Whats with all the gay references from you Pink? Seriously why do you always go there? Are you one of those guys that always makes gay references on the job? No wonder you like "Running pipe" so much. I'm a pretty open book Pink, and there are like 1000 better ways to insult me. But, use what you know I guess.
> 
> :thumbsup:


What, are you denying our relationship???


----------



## BBQ

Hackster said:


> What, are you denying our relationship???


Happy day for you fellars.

Gays celebrate court rulings on same-sex rights


----------



## BBQ

Goldagain said:


> No wonder you like "Running pipe" so much.



:lol:

Now every time I see 'piperunner' it will have a whole new meaning.


----------



## Deep Cover

Today we got the pad mount set. The crane showed up early, the reason you will find out in a little bit.










PoCo covering up the existing drop to make the crane operator more comfortable.










Better hurry up, before the skies let loose.










An exciting picture of the pad.










Its up in the air










and it's down safely










PoCo side










Secondary side


----------



## Deep Cover

Specs...left the picture big so you could read it










PoCo's feeders










and again


----------



## xaH

Is that a co-op utility?


----------



## Big John

Is that a scrap in your hand or did they really leave their cable ends open to the weather?


----------



## xaH

Big John said:


> Is that a scrap in your hand or did they really leave their cable ends open to the weather?


That's no big deal on HV cable, right?  :no:


----------



## piperunner

Well Deep Cover nice job its great to see some commercial work on this site keep posting photos looks clean and neat good job bro . :thumbsup:


----------



## Big John

xaH said:


> That's no big deal on HV cable, right?  :no:


 Bah, it's only 25kV. Now if it was Romex, I'd be worried. :whistling2:


----------



## 8V71

Big John said:


> Is that a scrap in your hand or did they really leave their cable ends open to the weather?


Question John....they are going to be pulling 1800' of probably that same stuff on my property but #2 I believe. A lot of my conduit is probably going to remain full of water forever. Is it really supposed to live ok submerged like that?


----------



## xaH

8V71 said:


> Question John....they are going to be pulling 1800' of probably that same stuff on my property but #2 I believe. A lot of my conduit is probably going to remain full of water forever. Is it really supposed to live ok submerged like that?


John was more concerned about water getting into the cable via the open end. HV cable is rated for DB, but it's disastrous to get even a drop of water inside of the cable itself.


----------



## Deep Cover

Maybe they were coming back after we had left to finish those connections. I'm not sure. I guess I'll see tomorrow. Hopefully our gear starts coming tomorrow.


----------



## Big John

8V71 said:


> ...A lot of my conduit is probably going to remain full of water forever. Is it really supposed to live ok submerged like that?


 There's an awful lot of it installed today that works just fine in water-filled conduits. The downside with XLPE is that it is extremely prone to a failure called "treeing" that happens when the outer jacket gets damaged and the insulator is exposed to moisture. The cable life expectancy is reduced by something like 80%. The fix is to use either type EPR which is more expensive, or the stuff in that picture, which is "tree retárdant" and is specifically designed to have much better resistance to long-term water exposure. And I think all POCOs are wise to that by this point.

ADMINISTRATORS: Retárdant is a perfectly legitimate word. You need to fix your overly sensitive censor!


----------



## Deep Cover

edit


----------



## frenchelectrican

One thing for sure I can identify it either WFL or WE system.

Are you any chance near Allentown ?

Merci,
Marc


----------



## Deep Cover

xaH said:


> Is that a co-op utility?


Not really, but it almost seems similar.



frenchelectrican said:


> One thing for sure I can identify it either WFL or WE system.
> 
> Are you any chance near Allentown ?
> 
> Merci,
> Marc


Allentown is north of us by a little bit.


----------



## xaH

What I find interesting is they set a transformer with output almost equal to the service size itself. 3000 KVA @ 480 volts is 3612 amps on a 4000 amp rated service. I'm assuming the demand load is going to be close to the calculated load on the service?


----------



## drumnut08

xaH said:


> What I find interesting is they set a transformer with output almost equal to the service size itself. 3000 KVA @ 480 volts is 3612 amps on a 4000 amp rated service. I'm assuming the demand load is going to be close to the calculated load on the service?


Value engineering at its finest ! The good news is if it smokes , they make bigger ones , lol .


----------



## xaH

drumnut08 said:


> Value engineering at its finest ! The good news is if it smokes , they make bigger ones , lol .


I'm not sure they actually value engineered this one. Usually the poco will size the service to the actual load which can be anything from 1/4 to 1/2 of the NEC calculated load. So either this one was designed by a rookie engineer at the poco or the load really is going to be that high.


----------



## SteveBayshore

I'll bet the recorded demand never comes close to 1/2 of the calculated load.


----------



## xaH

SteveBayshore said:


> I'll bet the recorded demand never comes close to 1/2 of the calculated load.


I was thinking the same thing when I made my post but didn't want to assume until we find out what they are going to be doing in this place.


----------



## Deep Cover

The initial load will be nowhere near 4000A. However, in the next year or so, they will be moving all their production to this facility. I was told today that that would include anywhere from 50-100 100A rated CNC machines plus some other equipment as well.

Out of curiosity, I put my meter on one of those machines. Each leg was around 7 Amps. Now, I'm no expert in the CNC field, but I have to believe that the thing wasn't doing something. It appeared to be working at full tilt...moving, cutting, spraying. The only explanation I could come up with is that it wasn't working that hard with the material that was being machined.


----------



## Deep Cover

The PoCos feeders were terminated yesterday.


----------



## 8V71

Deep Cover said:


> Out of curiosity, I put my meter on one of those machines. Each leg was around 7 Amps. Now, I'm no expert in the CNC field, but I have to believe that the thing wasn't doing something. It appeared to be working at full tilt...moving, cutting, spraying. The only explanation I could come up with is that it wasn't working that hard with the material that was being machined.


For as big and impressive looking as they are they don't take a whole lot of power. Harder material will draw more current but still not what you would think.


----------



## Deep Cover

8V71 said:


> For as big and impressive looking as they are they don't take a whole lot of power. Harder material will draw more current but still not what you would think.


Calls for a 100A 3P circuit...it HAS to draw more than 7A.:laughing:


----------



## 8V71

Yeah but no where near 100. They are way overrated mainly for voltage drop. Plus you got :nerd:'s designing them. :laughing:


----------



## 8V71

If all of the axis's go into rapid travel at the same time that would be the biggest spike but it doesn't last very long, just till the servos get up to speed.


----------



## Big John

8V71 said:


> ...Plus you got :nerd:'s designing them....


 :lol: I'm gonna stop saying the word "engineers" and just use that picture instead. I may even have to print it out on a flashcard.


----------



## xaH

So I think we can now safely say that's one seriously oversized transformer.


----------



## piperunner

BBQ said:


> It happens but not in this case. :laughing:
> 
> Some transformers are flexed in, some are not regardless of how you see it done or believe it should be done.
> 
> 
> 
> Really?
> 
> How many 3000 amp services have you designed, installed and passed inspection on your own?
> 
> 
> 
> I am glad you only come here to brag once in a while too.:laughing:
> 
> 
> 
> Here you go ....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And here is a 500 I did with wireway
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am just that good. :laughing:
> 
> 
> 
> In many cases they do, but the NEC does not require flex and nether do all engineers.
> 
> If you could think for yourself it would make you a better electrician. :whistling2:


Well BBQ next time when you image Google it from someones photo thats not your work bro and also even if it was yours you never come into it like that follow the 1000 kva factory instructions on dry type transformers heat goes up whos photo is it BBQ no electrical inspector would alow pvc pipe on that gutter in florida thats just shotty work and its not UL listed for that purpose plus if you call the factory and asked them they would not let you cut out a transformer like the 500 kva bro . :thumbup:


----------



## piperunner

Well we know you can do what ever the NEC code doesnt cover thats you BBQ . 

But who ever installed the 1000 kva above didnt read the instructions on entering the transformer from the factory .

Now the instructions you see are for a 500kva and smaller xtmrs from SQ-D they dont say you have to flex but they suggest it be used . 

Some minor facts NEMA standards have a sound decibel level some day you will get a job like we do and your everyday common installs with no inspections engineered by yourself will not fly bro . Dont forget to see the post above just a recap . :laughing: use flex if possible from SQ-D so whos photo is that BBQ ?


----------



## Hackster

piperunner said:


> Well BBQ next time when you image Google it from someones photo thats not your work bro


I looked up that photo in 2 different image directories that cover pretty much the entire interweb and every instance that it's been used it has been posted by BBQ or one of his other usernames.


----------



## BBQ

piperunner said:


> Well BBQ next time when you image Google it from someones photo thats not your work bro





You are dope. :thumbup:



> and also even if it was yours you never come into it like that follow the 1000 kva factory instructions on dry type transformers heat goes up


The instructions for that 1000 Kva required top entry.

I was surprised as well when I got the cutsheets.



> whos photo is it BBQ


Again, you are a dope. :laughing:



> no electrical inspector would alow pvc pipe on that gutter in florida


I can't argue if that is true or not but I can tell you that transformer is not in FL.





> thats just shotty work


_Shoddy_ work? I don't agree with that, the conductors are protected. Less then pretty work? Yes. 



> and its not UL listed for that purpose


It is not required to be and it is up the AHJ to determine if the installation is a listing issue or not.



> plus if you call the factory and asked them they would not let you cut out a transformer like the 500 kva bro .


The cutouts were within the factory instructions for penetrations. Four - 4" connectors would not have fit in the allowable space.

About the only thing I really have an issue is are the bends in the conductors. Our hydrulic conductor bender was giving us a hard time with the XHHW. The plastic wrap between the XHHW and the copper was not 100% complete meaning the XHHW was stuck to the copper in parts of it.


----------



## BBQ

piperunner said:


> Well we know you can do what ever the NEC code doesnt cover thats you BBQ .


Yeah, I am cool like that. :thumbsup:



> But who ever installed the 1000 kva above didnt read the instructions on entering the transformer from the factory .
> 
> Now the instructions you see are for a 500kva and smaller xtmrs from SQ-D they dont say you have to flex but they suggest it be used .


Not sure what you are trying to say here but both transformers are installed code compliantly and following the instructions. 




> Some minor facts NEMA standards have a sound decibel level some day you will get a job like we do and your everyday common installs with no inspections engineered by yourself will not fly bro . Dont forget to see the post above just a recap . :laughing: use flex if possible from SQ-D so whos photo is that BBQ ?


:lol::lol:


----------



## xaH

This is awesome. :jester:


----------



## Big John

I'm not even sure what the hell is being argued about anymore. I thought we all agreed 100 posts ago that flex was good for sound deadening when necessary, yet here we are....


----------



## Hackster

Big John said:


> I'm not even sure what the hell is being argued about anymore. I thought we all agreed 100 posts ago that flex was good for sound deadening when necessary, yet here we are....


Flex could make a rattle sound, use smurf tube instead.


----------



## xaH

Big John said:


> I'm not even sure what the hell is being argued about anymore. I thought we all agreed 100 posts ago that flex was good for sound deadening when necessary, yet here we are....


The best that Nick could come up with is that flex is recommended but nowhere is it actually required.


----------



## BBQ

Big John said:


> I'm not even sure what the hell is being argued about anymore. I thought we all agreed 100 posts ago that flex was good for sound deadening when necessary, yet here we are....




I am watching some TV waiting on the wife to bring me my lunch. If I stop doing this I have to clean and organize the van.


----------



## Big John

Hackster said:


> Flex could make a rattle sound, use smurf tube instead.


 Smurf tube might buzz. Better use SER.


----------



## Jlarson

Big John said:


> I'm not even sure what the hell is being argued about anymore.


It's hard to argue what can't be argued. :laughing:


----------



## ponyboy

Big John said:


> I'm not even sure what the hell is being argued about anymore. I thought we all agreed 100 posts ago that flex was good for sound deadening when necessary, yet here we are....


we've also debated hard piping them which is usually my SOP.
none of these rattle, and if they did you'd need super human dog ears to hear it


----------



## piperunner

Well Ponyboy i guess were the odd electrician here but our jobs as long as ive been doing electrical our details our specs will state flex connect we cant do hard pipe theres no option .
I have never hard piped into one . Now ill say we use PVC bells under when we come in the bottom of a trans but theres no connection to the metal frame we just punch out a hole and stub conduits up .

On that 1000 kva the one like BBQ has hard piped we come into it with flex because we have no choice. 
You can hard pipe a 1000 kva or larger i do agree but but not like he has it .

We have the secondarys not directly over the core we run them to the far right and bring the wire into it down and over to avoid heat on the insulation . We have done a lot of buildings in the last 10 years 
which are installing sound boards in the electrical rooms our jobs always spec springs and extra vibration pads on the frames on top of whats factory .


----------



## walkerj

I know it's not required by code but I completely agree with piperunner on this. 
Any job with an EE will have flex in the specs.


----------



## Big John

ponyboy said:


> we've also debated hard piping them which is usually my SOP....


 That's exactly how I roll. Fewer parts, less time piping, less time pulling. Next.


----------



## Jlarson

walkerj said:


> Any job with an EE will have flex in the specs.


Ours don't.


----------



## ponyboy

Jlarson said:


> Ours don't.


nor mine. plenty of them walking around though if I need one


----------



## Jlarson

ponyboy said:


> nor mine. plenty of them walking around though if I need one


We keep ours in an office where they belong, away from tools they could hurt themselves with. :laughing:


----------



## walkerj

I meant any commercial job around here


----------



## piperunner

Well Ponyboy whats that job in the photos meaning what type of project was it completely new from ground up or what .


----------



## Jlarson

ponyboy said:


> we've also debated hard piping them which is usually my SOP.
> none of these rattle, and if they did you'd need super human dog ears to hear it


Can you get me a free tractor? :laughing:


----------



## ponyboy

piperunner said:


> Well Ponyboy whats that job in the photos meaning what type of project was it completely new from ground up or what .


top ones for a new small laser setup. bottom ones just a typical setup I do when bringing power to an area for whatever reason. there are (4) 500,000 sq. ft. buildings at this location that are constantly changing to accommodate new machines and lines


----------



## sbrn33

ponyboy said:


> top ones for a new small laser setup. bottom ones just a typical setup I do when bringing power to an area for whatever reason. there are (4) 500,000 sq. ft. buildings at this location that are constantly changing to accommodate new machines and lines


You should change your font to International red.


----------



## Deep Cover

Currently installing two 150kVA's 1 1/2" EMT in...3" EMT out


----------



## ponyboy

Jlarson said:


> Can you get me a free tractor? :laughing:


no problem but the shipping will be about $100,000


----------



## ponyboy

sbrn33 said:


> You should change your font to International red.


don't you blaspheme in here


----------



## Jlarson

Case yellow font?


----------



## ponyboy

Jlarson said:


> Case yellow font?


technically I could do caterpillar yellow and be safe. mutual interests


----------



## ponyboy

Deep Cover said:


> Currently installing two 150kVA's 1 1/2" EMT in...3" EMT out


that's what the top one in my pic is. if I remember right I went in with 2" and out with two 2". after that one I started using 2 1/2" for the secondary side of the 150s. just easier


----------



## BBQ

piperunner said:


> On that 1000 kva the one like BBQ has hard piped we come into it with flex because we have no choice.
> You can hard pipe a 1000 kva or larger i do agree but but not like he has it .
> 
> We have the secondarys not directly over the core we run them to the far right and bring the wire into it down and over to avoid heat on the insulation .



:laughing:


See if you can comprehend this. The terminals for the transformer in my picture are at the top of the core. If you had come in low you would have to run vertical past the core, make a u-turn and go back down into the terminals. 

You have not seen or done it all. :no:



walkerj said:


> Any job with an EE will have flex in the specs.



Some do, some don't, I think you just assume.


----------



## frenchelectrican

BBQ said:


> :laughing:
> 
> 
> See if you can comprehend this. The terminals for the transformer in my picture are at the top of the core. If you had come in low you would have to run vertical past the core, make a u-turn and go back down into the terminals.
> 
> You have not seen or done it all. :no:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Some do, some don't, I think you just assume.


 
Those transfomer like that large I am NOT too crazy to run below as you posted the photo But I did it couple time but basically I really hate it. ( it really sucks if you have to change the voltage taps.)

Merci,
Marc


----------



## BBQ

Piperunner,

Can you explain again how you would not run the conductors above the core?:laughing:


----------



## piperunner

Well heres what we normally do entrance is to the right wire not on top of core heat very easy simple . It has a space for the feeders on each side if not on a smaller one we still go to the left or right . But then were from the south and were slow and dont get to see transformers much .

So your conduit is not filling up with hot air directly over the top center option left or right your choice but you do what you do BBQ because your the best at reading instructions .


----------



## Deep Cover

This week we saw the delivery of the gear.

Installation of some supplemental Xfmrs and piping for the future equipment.


----------



## piperunner

Deep Cover said:


> This week we saw the delivery of the gear.
> 
> Installation of some supplemental Xfmrs and piping for the future equipment.


Well it looks good you must work in a lot of plants deep . 

like the photos when you get it installed put some more up i like to see what others do is that Eaton stuff. :thumbup:


----------



## Deep Cover

Honestly, I don't have much industrial experience, but bending pipe is bending pipe. It's usually just larger. Take your time and make it look good or every time you walk into that building, it will bug the sheet out of ya.

Yep, that is Eaton. We have 4 of the 5 pieces mounted on the pad. Being that we had such a low ceiling, we had to move these pieces by hand. The first two weren't bad...an empty cabinet and a tap box. The main kicked our ass (2 guys) and the breaker cabinet wasn't much better. 

I think I'll have some better pictures next week. As soon as we get the gear set, we are going to start pulling the 500's.


----------



## ponyboy

Looking good. I would've fanned them kicks but to each their own.


----------



## Deep Cover

Is that what is "normally" done? I actually debated which way to go...put the kick at the same spot in the run or put the kick at the same spot in relation to the 90's.


----------



## ponyboy

Deep Cover said:


> Is that what is "normally" done? I actually debated which way to go...put the kick at the same spot in the run or put the kick at the same spot in relation to the 90's.


It's mostly preference. Personally I think it looks better and it doesn't take any extra time. My philosophy is if you have to do it you might as well make it look cool haha

It looks like it would've been tough on your situation though because the kick looks minimal and there's so many pipes your center of bend would change quite a bit from the first to the last pipe unless you did a little math work


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## Big John

Deep Cover said:


> Is that what is "normally" done? I actually debated which way to go...put the kick at the same spot in the run or put the kick at the same spot in relation to the 90's.


 It's faster to put the kicks in the same spot relative to the 90° like you did it, you can just stamp out each one.

If you put them in the same spot in the run, it means you've got a different offset leading up to each 90° and you end up with different angles. When they fan out, it definitely looks nice and pretty, but you have to do the offset calculation each time.


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## Control Freak

In this situation the offset measurement would be the same . It is the same kick repeated for each conduit isn't it? 
Me personally in this situation I move my mark. I always move my mark when bending parallel offsets or parallel kicks. That is the only way to keep the spacing the same.


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## Control Freak

I got distracted by the conversation about the pipe work.....quick question;

I was taught that it doesn't matter where you enter a transformer as long as the wiring doesn't cross the coils. Anybody else do the same?


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## walkerj

Control Freak said:


> I got distracted by the conversation about the pipe work.....quick question;
> 
> I was taught that it doesn't matter where you enter a transformer as long as the wiring doesn't cross the coils. Anybody else do the same?


I have seen several with a sticker that says 'no wiring above this line'


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## Control Freak

I've seen that as well. I am talking about if there is no indication. Like I said I was taught to never cross the coils. Some foreman I've worked for like to turn the lugs in opposite directions. For example have the H's facing up and the X's facing down.


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## ponyboy

Control Freak said:


> I've seen that as well. I am talking about if there is no indication. Like I said I was taught to never cross the coils. Some foreman I've worked for like to turn the lugs in opposite directions. For example have the H's facing up and the X's facing down.


that sounds like lectrical voodoo. do what the paperwork for the xformer tells you to do and move on. turn it on and it'll hum and that's the end of it. people are beating this topic to death, but that's what we do


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## walkerj

ponyboy said:


> that sounds like lectrical voodoo. do what the paperwork for the xformer tells you to do and move on. turn it on and it'll hum and that's the end of it. people are beating this topic to death, but that's what we do


You're just mad because I'm better than you


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## 123electric

Beautiful work deep cover!


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## sbrn33

Deep Cover said:


> This week we saw the delivery of the gear.
> 
> Installation of some supplemental Xfmrs and piping for the future equipment.


Deep, It looks good but for the life of me I cannot figure out why they would cheap out on the 200 amp single phase panel. Why not spend another $300 or less and go with a panelboard.


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## ponyboy

sbrn33 said:


> Deep, It looks good but for the life of me I cannot figure out why they would cheap out on the 200 amp single phase panel. Why not spend another $300 or less and go with a panelboard.


could not agree more, a loadcenter has no business in an industrial or heavy commercial facility. I can get 20 3/4s out the top of a NQOD panelboard. maybe even more if I go with 1.5 centers


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## 123electric

ponyboy said:


> could not agree more, a loadcenter has no business in an industrial or heavy commercial facility. I can get 20 3/4s out the top of a NQOD panelboard. maybe even more if I go with 1.5 centers


Limitations are strictly for load centers to residential, and high end residential? 
How much do the NQOD panels go for? I have not put any in, mostly residential here


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## ponyboy

123electric said:


> Limitations are strictly for load centers to residential, and high end residential?
> How much do the NQOD panels go for? I have not put any in, mostly residential here


I didn't mean it to sound like you _can't _use loadcenters in industrial because you absolutely can. I just don't know why anyone would. they have shoddy prepunched KOs on the top so making your own holes is out of the question, plus most are only 14.5" wide compared to the 20" you get with a panelboard tub. also every panel in our plants is a boltdown buss or I-line.

As far as price you're asking the wrong guy, I haven't had to look up a price in a few years. but I can tell you for what you get out of the panelboard versus the loadcenter it is worth the extra cost


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## walkerj

The price is quite different but I still don't understand why you would put a load center in a place like that. 
It's not hack but it's close.


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## 123electric

Should I be looking into NQOD panels for my residential work or QO good enough?


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## walkerj

walkerj said:


> The price is quite different but I still don't understand why you would put a load center in a place like that.
> It's not hack but it's close.


And the cover is going to be a flush mount cover


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## walkerj

123electric said:


> Should I be looking into NQOD panels for my residential work or QO good enough?


There is no reason to use bolt in breakers in a house but FYI NQOD will also accept QO snap in breakers


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## 123electric

Would be neat to see one up close with the heavy duty sounds of it


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## ponyboy

walkerj said:


> The price is quite different but I still don't understand why you would put a load center in a place like that.
> It's not hack but it's close.


I cant judge, I've done it. the ONLY times (twice) ive done it was when I set a small 3 phase 100 amp QO loadcenter next to a 1200 amp I-line because I had no single pole I-line breakers and literally only needed 2 circuits. 

here it is, slash away


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## ponyboy

walkerj said:


> And the cover is going to be a flush mount cover


3 phase QO loadcenters do not come with covers, you gotta specify surface or flush


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## 123electric

Holly cow that little QO panel looks tiny next to the I-line panel


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## sbrn33

I priced a 400 amp MB service for a house. I wanted the 400 MB because of the heavy load. I ended up with a 2 section panelboard. It was cheaper than the plug in option. Arc faults and all. Now 2-200's would have been about a third but I just didn't like it.


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## Deep Cover

sbrn33 said:


> Deep, It looks good but for the life of me I cannot figure out why they would cheap out on the 200 amp single phase panel. Why not spend another $300 or less and go with a panelboard.


It's a 3 phase panel 120/208 for all new LED lighting. I just install what's given. I assume that if this was for actual equipment, we would have installed a more commercial type panel.


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## Awg-Dawg

Deep Cover said:


> I just install what's given.


 

That's what I do.


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## Jlarson

sbrn33 said:


> Why not spend another $300 or less and go with a panelboard.


Some take offense to tossing 3 bills down the crapper. :laughing:

No one has been able to show any really reason why bolt on is sooo much more awesome.

I had an engineer running his yap about how bolt ons never burn and blah blah, so I had my helper drop the melted NQOD boards and GE bolt ons we had replaced that day in front of him, he took his ball and went back to copy and pasting :laughing: 

Three phase snap in QO's suck though, especially when people abuse the whole switch duty thing, put in some freaking light switches for ****s sake people. Actually don't, cause that way I can keep raking in the coin. :thumbup:


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## 123electric

Three phase QO plug in suck, then bolt on is better or worse? I guess nothing can prevent problems even as you said bolt ins burn up too?


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