# not enough spaces !&*!!**!!!



## mikewillnot (Apr 2, 2013)

No panel installed before last year ever seems to have enough spaces. We do mainly 200-amp retrofits. I find I'm quoting 54-space and 60-space panels more often (QO, maybe CH) .... and it's often a PITA packing all those circuits (plus extra ground bars, etc) into a single enclosure, requiring what a friend used to call "dimensional rift technology." I was in a house with a 400-amp service, with 2x200 (42-sp), and it was like one of those fantasy things; the crew thought they'd died and gone somewhere pleasant. Not many of my customers are in the 400 ballpark though, either $ or load. 

Main + sub is one possible alternative -- sort of a re-engineering of the old split buss concept. I'm also beginning to contemplate dual (parallel) main panels -- something I came across by accident a couple of years back (HERE) -- either with parallel 150s or 200s. We're on 2017 still, around here, and I believe 2020 will require external disconnects, which could either complicate or simplify the idea. Thoughts?


----------



## shocksystems (Apr 25, 2009)

Another option is a feed thru breaker with a second panel. This is the solution I might start doing more.









Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk


----------



## Buck Parrish Electric (Jan 8, 2021)

Have you checked out the Tandem AFCI ? Siemens 20-Amp 1-Pole Tandem Combination Arc Fault Circuit Breaker in the Circuit Breakers department at Lowes.com


----------



## mofos be cray (Nov 14, 2016)

Buck Parrish Electric said:


> Have you checked out the Tandem AFCI ? Siemens 20-Amp 1-Pole Tandem Combination Arc Fault Circuit Breaker in the Circuit Breakers department at Lowes.com


Those are a game changer.


----------



## mikewillnot (Apr 2, 2013)

I had not heard of the tandem AFCI. could definitely help.


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Ok, this is what I normally do: 200 amp meter / main on the exterior. Typically Eaton 4/8 space so I can install 2 - 100 amp feeder overcurrent protection disconnecting devices also known as 2 pole circuit breakers. Run 2 1/0 alum ser cables to 2 interior load centers. Because Eaton discontinued making a 30/40 circuit load center (at least they don't show up in my area anyway whether that part is true or not) , I now typically install the new 30/60 's or else two 20/40's depending on the size of the dwelling and how many circuits I foresee needing to install and still have extra room for the inevitable split system ac's that will be added later on usually. If it is a nowadays typical new dwelling there will be more or less a duplex 2 story house , with a real kitchen downstairs and a pretend its a wet bar fake kitchen upstairs with a range oven in both, sinks in both. One gets an official refrigerator 15 amp 120 volt dedicated circuit and the other gets a dedicated 15 amp receptacle outlet also but it is a general purpose wall outlet because everybody knows you cannot have the two refrigerators when you have two ovens (local building code) so its just for possibly using to serve a vacuum cleaner on occasion maybe , but certainly not the owners putting a second fridge there at some point, now way man.......... 
Ignoring that second exterior stairwell with an entry landing or deck for the moment as a possible 2nd unit to be rented out while the actual owners will live pleasantly enough downstairs and everybody smiles and winks is how you manage to live in Aloha land cause we all know it costs a hell of a lot more to live here. 

Also for a few dollars extra I can initially install an exterior meter / main that instead of having room for only 2 double pole service disconnect circuit breakers, Eaton also makes exterior meter main units with a 200 amp main and either 8 full spaces for breakers or I think it's a 20 space they sell also, which is perfect for that shortly future more than likely grid tie in pv system that also is going to be an aftermarket way to make a can of money off the nice new owners that are sure you are the best electrician in the whole island or at least that they have ever had experience with. Wow that was a long sentence macmikeman. 

You can thank me later..............


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

P.S. I don't like having to wrestle with 4/0 alum ser cables so that is why I run two load centers instead of one and then run a sub panel off of it. Besides that , our exterior walls are 2x4 framed not 2x 6 so 4/0 doesn't exactly like to make the 90 deg turn into the exterior cans very well either, though I run across crummy mangled installs that other competitors of mine attempted every so often where they just remove and oversize knockouts in the back of the can and then forgo the required cable connector at the entry into the can.


----------



## zoltan (Mar 15, 2010)

Buck Parrish Electric said:


> Have you checked out the Tandem AFCI ? Siemens 20-Amp 1-Pole Tandem Combination Arc Fault Circuit Breaker in the Circuit Breakers department at Lowes.com


Is Siemens Model #Q2020AFCNP breaker compatible with Siemens PN Series Load Centers?


----------



## mikewillnot (Apr 2, 2013)

Buck Parrish Electric said:


> Have you checked out the Tandem AFCI ? Siemens 20-Amp 1-Pole Tandem Combination Arc Fault Circuit Breaker in the Circuit Breakers department at Lowes.com


Does Eaton make a BR type of this??? That would be helpful.


----------



## Mobius87 (May 20, 2019)

mofos be cray said:


> Those are a game changer.


Have you found them in Canada? Gescan (my local Siemens dealer) doesn't have them listed.


----------



## mofos be cray (Nov 14, 2016)

Mobius87 said:


> Have you found them in Canada? Gescan (my local Siemens dealer) doesn't have them listed.


I didn't know of them until this thread. In pictures of them I only see a UL mark and not a ULc mark. Some might not be allowed here.


----------



## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

mofos be cray said:


> Those are a game changer.


 It will probably be 10 years before we get a CSA sticker on them.

Cheers
John


----------



## samgregger (Jan 23, 2013)

mikewillnot said:


> Does Eaton make a BR type of this??? That would be helpful.


No but they make 100a breakers - put all your big circuits on the main panel, put 100a breaker in, nipple to a sub panel right beside or below it and put all your little 15a gfi / afci circuits on that


----------



## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

samgregger said:


> No but they make 100a breakers - put all your big circuits on the main panel, put 100a breaker in, nipple to a sub panel right beside or below it and put all your little 15a gfi / afci circuits on that


That's an interesting take on it.


----------



## mikewillnot (Apr 2, 2013)

samgregger said:


> No but they make 100a breakers - put all your big circuits on the main panel, put 100a breaker in, nipple to a sub panel right beside or below it and put all your little 15a gfi / afci circuits on that


Good idea. Why didn't I think of that?


----------



## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

Once I made a comment on here about just GFCI-ing the main and get it over with. A lot of people had a problem with that idea.


----------



## samgregger (Jan 23, 2013)

mikewillnot said:


> Good idea. Why didn't I think of that?


MLO panels are cheap and it's nice too because it spreads all your circuits out into 2 stud bays so you don't have 1000 pieces of Romex all trying to come in through the same top plate.


----------



## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

Have you ever heard of a sub panel? By the time a few extra circuits get pulled especially if the old probably unused stuff isn’t removed and especially adding a pool, garage/shop etc. before long it’s full.

This is where you need to do an honest assessment of the situation BEFORR quoting a replacement. By the time you attempt to even stretch and weave that mess there is no way you can call it neat and workmanlike, and very likely more of a hazard than the original. A far better approach is take a hard look at the panel entries. Ideally find another spot in the room. Install a “small” panel board that is distribution only. Add sub panels and feed everything from there. The original main panel gets outfitted with terminal blocks and becomes a junction box only. Or sometimes it becomes a sub panel with a new retrofitted open frame panel board.

The reasons this happens are two fold. The first is if there is just 2 or 3 slots left you need to add a sub panel. All the future use space is gone. But it’s hard to justify an entire subpanel for one circuit. The other issue is that the amount of electronics, Code required stuff, appliances, and electric equipment has grown tremendously. Even if the original panels actually had a recommended 20% spare slots this is nowhere close.

On new construction spread things out. Maybe put in subs one per floor or area.


----------



## mikewillnot (Apr 2, 2013)

Thanks partly to this thread, and other factors, I'm considering leaning more to the subpanel approach when possible. The problem I'm running into half the time though is a *!!*_ finished basement, done in such a way that there's a wall in front of the panel with an access door in it, which sometimes even makes adding a piece of 14/2 difficult the trim is so tight. [Not to mention drywall ceilings. I mean, what could possibly_ go wrong???] Generally there's lots of communication and security boxes on the wall nearby besides, and absolutely nowhere to put a subpanel. It's getting so I !!_fff_!!***ing hate remodelers.... they're so damned short-sighted. There ought to be a license requirement.


----------



## WannabeTesla (Feb 24, 2020)

I learned the sub panel lesson on my first complete reno. I still get sideways glances about it but it's cleaner, more efficient, and aids troubleshooting (not that anything will EVER go wrong...). 

I'd put one in every room if i could.


----------



## taglicious (Feb 8, 2020)

WannabeTesla said:


> I learned the sub panel lesson on my first complete reno. I still get sideways glances about it but it's cleaner, more efficient, and aids troubleshooting (not that anything will EVER go wrong...).
> 
> I'd put one in every room if i could.


LOL its nice to see others had the same issue. Sub panels are time savers


----------



## splatz (May 23, 2015)

WannabeTesla said:


> I learned the sub panel lesson on my first complete reno. I still get sideways glances about it but it's cleaner, more efficient, and aids troubleshooting (not that anything will EVER go wrong...).
> I'd put one in every room if i could.





taglicious said:


> LOL its nice to see others had the same issue. Sub panels are time savers


There was a member here, ChickenSteve, that took a lot of abuse for advocating a kitchen subpanel* ** , I really should have stuck up for him on that one. A kitchen - dining room panel in the pantry or other spot near the kitchen, and maybe catch a half bath if it's in the same vicinity. I think it would save time and money and make a nicer install all around. This insistence on cramming as much as possible between two studs in the basement is silly. 

* and many other things 
** often deservedly


----------



## WannabeTesla (Feb 24, 2020)

splatz said:


> There was a member here, ChickenSteve, that took a lot of abuse for advocating a kitchen subpanel* ** , I really should have stuck up for him on that one. A kitchen - dining room panel in the pantry or other spot near the kitchen, and maybe catch a half bath if it's in the same vicinity. I think it would save time and money and make a nicer install all around. This insistence on cramming as much as possible between two studs in the basement is silly.
> 
> * and many other things
> ** often deservedly



Yes. And there are some instances where it would make sense to install a sub on each floor. Let's see the hvac guys try to block the path for one or two little SEUs... well, obviously there would be more than that, but you get the picture. 

I think i remember chicken steve.


----------



## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

WannabeTesla said:


> Yes. And there are some instances where it would make sense to install a sub on each floor. Let's see the hvac guys try to block the path for one or two little SEUs... well, obviously there would be more than that, but you get the picture.
> 
> I think i remember chicken steve.


he never left.


----------



## mikewillnot (Apr 2, 2013)

mikewillnot said:


> It's getting so I !!_fff_!!***ing hate remodelers.... they're so damned short-sighted. There ought to be a license requirement.


Actually, I've re-thought this. They're probably not all short-sighted. It's more likely they just don't give a sh** about whoever comes along after them.


----------



## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

the way i handle remodels is get specific info on what plugs and floor plan they want. I tell them specifically "I will do it for this much, but any changes will be time and material added"
later when they do the inevitable change i try to give them a ballpark of what that will take (which by the way is always way in my favor)

what ever the diy did that i have to change is just part of it. they will always be around and mucking it up best they can. if your gonna do remodels ,,, get used to it or quit it.


----------



## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

mikewillnot said:


> Actually, I've re-thought this. They're probably not all short-sighted. It's more likely they just don't give a sh** about whoever comes along after them.


They are short sighted, they’re trying to get through today only and have no consideration for future work.


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

The few times I wire new homes, ones higher end etc. They get a 400 amp with 2 200 amp panels or at least a 200 and a 100 amp sub 20 or 30 space. The couple of builders I work with get the value of the subpanel and we install them quite often. By now, many, not most of the mid or larger sized homes from the last three decades built by cheapo builders and reno'd by equally cheapo remodelers have filled that 30 space 200 amp panel with twins (by that clipped what ever piece needed to make it fit) and or doubled up on breakers. No space for AFCI. Pretty much needs to be done if you want to be legit.


----------



## CraziFuzzy (Jul 10, 2019)

Subpanels subpanels subpanels. The solution to all the problems. Seriously, I can easily see a reasonable home having at least three, minimum. With gens and/or solar battery systems becoming more prevalent, there is a strong case for a vital loads panel in every home. Then you've got the ubiquitous garage subpanel. Also, have a dedicated sub in the pantry to serve the kitchen. Most pools end up with their own subpanel, etc. Seriously - panels are WAY cheaper than running the romex from one point to everywhere in the home.


----------



## Superman (Mar 19, 2019)

subpanels for me make life easier. one large cable to good location as opposed to a bunch of home runs that can be 3 floors down or at other end of house etc


----------

