# Another electrician said ...and it sounds like BS.



## SWDweller (Dec 9, 2020)

When it is so outlandish load up the camera and take a drive.
Be prepared for anything


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

My only issue with this guy is how to dispose of the body.


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## mburtis (Sep 1, 2018)

Bet he uses speaker wire for ceiling fans too


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

Can you do it and make it code compliant.....probably
with in 6' may be a manufactures recommendation.

So the 3 questions i have are

1/ how does the home owner know where its mounted (unless its visibly mounted where they can see it)
2/ why did someone go the extra mile when the simple install is the quickest and easiest. 
3/ why is the home owner complaining


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

gpop said:


> Can you do it and make it code compliant.....probably
> with in 6' may be a manufactures recommendation.
> 
> So the 3 questions i have are
> ...


I have same questions plus one more.
Who says he didnt put a caseta in attic and pico below? Need to SEE it to prove it bruh.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

I need more info for :: "installed in the ceiling" is that in the attic? below the ceiling? visible wiring from fan to remote?

actually we need a picture of this


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

Another thing: I have been seeing some really crazy foreign fans from the internet lately. they dont even have a ul mark anywhere. the mfg may have intended the remote receiver to be remote from the fan

and finally does it look right and work properly?


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

If he removed and replaced an existing ceiling fan then the wire would already be in the JB and he would have had to work harder to put the receiver outside of it.

If he installed this new, then he ran the wire and it should of been run right into the fan box he installed, and the receiver installed there. 

Some missing information for sure, are you going to head over there and check on it?


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## Greg Sparkovich (Sep 15, 2007)

1/ how does the home owner know where its mounted (unless its visibly mounted where they can see it)

I think she saw him cutting the hole for it...

2/ why did someone go the extra mile when the simple install is the quickest and easiest.

This was done after the fan had already been installed because she wasn't satisfied with the means of switching. I assume it was more difficult to wire with 14/3 then it was with 14/2 (see more detail below).

3/ why is the home owner complaining

When I recommended him, I mentioned that I didn't know his work, but we've talked and he sounded like he had to s*** together. The customer wanted me to know that the recommendation didn't work out -which I am grateful for, since I won't be recommending him again.

Someone mentioned an attic; there is no attic...

More detail:
What he did was to run a line from a recessed light to the fan location so that the light switch had to be on in order for the fan to work... Obviously not great if you want to sleep with the lights off.

The customer's complaint was that they couldn't have the fan on without the lights being on.
Apparently the bottoms of the rafters were exposed and the ceiling space is quite shallow -so there was no possibility of replacing the 14/2 from the switch with 14/3 (I translate this to mean that there was no _inexpensive_ way to replace the 14/2 from the switch...)
I think that what happened is that he bypassed the switch, and replaced the 14/2 from the recessed light to the fan with 14/3 so that he could have a constant hot at the receiver and use the third conductor on the 14/3 to control all of the lights (recessed and fan) from the remote.

What the customer said is that she didn't want the recessed lights to have to be on in order for the fan to be able to operate ...and that the electrician's solution was to "cut a hole" in the ceiling to install the receiver. When she confronted him about leaving the remote in the ceiling, he gave her "the 6-ft rule".

I'll be the first to admit that it can be tricky to install an aftermarket receiver under the canopy, but I've never not been able to do it (and that includes times when I've had the extra conductor to switch other lights). That said, it occurs to me that there may be a product which has protected terminals. I don't see how this is different from a junction box which would still need to be readily accessible, but maybe there is a listed product line for this purpose...?


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Greg Sparkovich said:


> 1/ how does the home owner know where its mounted (unless its visibly mounted where they can see it)
> 
> I think she saw him cutting the hole for it...
> 
> ...


So is a caseta installed or not?


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

I would not take the word of the homeowner. I would contact the electrician and asked him what he did that got the homeowner all wound up.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Im dying for pix on this lol


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## dspiffy (Nov 25, 2013)

Assuming he did what is being described . . . I've done it, but it is not legal/approved.

The ceiling fan receiver is supposed to fit in the fan's canopy, not the outlet box, however, if you dont buy them together often times the receiver is too big for the canopy and/or doesnt fit around the mounting bracket. It almost never fits inside the box itself.

The correct solution is to buy a fan and receiver that fit together. But with all that space on 3/4 sides of the box, especially when it's a drop ceiling . . .


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## JasonCo (Mar 23, 2015)

Greg Sparkovich said:


> More detail:
> What he did was to run a line from a recessed light to the fan location so that the light switch had to be on in order for the fan to work... Obviously not great if you want to sleep with the lights off.


So you can't use the fan without having the light on, nah lol. She is rightfully upset, unless I'm misunderstanding? So was this light and fan pre-existing, then she moved into this home and wants the light and fan on a separate means of switching on/off? If so, yeah sure I guess the cheapest route is putting a remote receiver in the fan and doing the 14/3 you talked about. As far as making joints in the ceiling at 120v with no box, yeah there is no code exception for this.

You make it sound like he literally cut an exposed hole next to the fan and the wiring is visibly exposed going into this hole with the receiver in it? Don't tell me he did this? If so, I'm taking her side and will gladly join her in a Karren duop lol. If the hole is covered by the fan base, then meh, it is what it is. No one will see it. Maybe there is better and more professional methods that meet code though? Just hard to fully chip in without setting eyes on the situation.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

I never recommend another electrician. I don’t know their skills, customer service, pricing. I have contact information of the three near me in alphabetical order and give people that with no recommendation.


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## Greg Sparkovich (Sep 15, 2007)

In general, I think my customer is completely justified if the electrician didn't use a listed device and just left connections in the ceiling. I have had times when I cut a corner, but I check with the customer to see if they are OK with it. I think the most important thing is setting expectations -customers are pissed when they have high expectations and you don't meet them.

The guy refunded 30% and she is now concerned with safety, that's all.



Majewski said:


> Im dying for pix on this lol


I'm just trying to confirm what I think is true; I'm not going over there and I'm not taking pictures.

Does the caseta have a wireless receiver? I thought that (with only one wire going to the fan/light location) that the light only worked with the "high fan" setting and that it won't dim?
Also, if there is a receiver, is it listed for connections outside a box or fan canopy?
(I'm assuming you are familiar with the product; I know of it, but never installed).


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Greg Sparkovich said:


> Dude, I'm just trying to confirm what I think is true; I'm not going over there and I'm not taking pictures.
> 
> The guy refunded 30% and she is now concerned with safety, that's all.
> 
> ...


If I recommended the guy, I would take a look. It’s your reputation.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Greg Sparkovich said:


> Dude, I'm just trying to confirm what I think is true; I'm not going over there and I'm not taking pictures.
> 
> The guy refunded 30% and she is now concerned with safety, that's all.
> 
> ...


That reflects iffy on you, inmo.


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## dspiffy (Nov 25, 2013)

I dont see how safety is an issue unless he did something worse than what's described


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

gpop said:


> Can you do it and make it code compliant.....probably
> with in 6' may be a manufactures recommendation.
> 
> So the 3 questions i have are
> ...


4/ Why did I recommend him?
5/ I will never recommend someone again.

I once recommended a neighbor who was a self employed plumber and... let's just say I don't recommend anyone.


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## JasonCo (Mar 23, 2015)

Edit: Wow what a long read sorry

I'm still confused on what's described. Idk if the hole + wires are visible to the naked eye next to the fan, or the hole is within the interior shell of the fan base. If so, then I'd be okay with this. If not, 100% fix it. This is sort of beating around the bush though.

He did kind of screw himself. Here she's sitting there watching him do things that aren't code, and now calling him out on it. That's fair, and it's his own fault lol. This is where he screwed up. Although the situation is silly, she is within her right to be concerned/upset. Not taking her side, but she is within her right. We all safely cut corners from time to time, but in front of the customer that's watching you. That's on him.

IMO I'd go over there and fix the problem if I was him or you. I know it's incredibly inconvenient but I'd say the integrity of keeping good business is more important in the end, EVEN if she isn't a return customer. It probably won't take more than 30 minutes. Might be an easy fix, I bet that receiver will fit in the fan...

Sucks, but hey, he did a code violation in front of the customer that she is now calling him out on. The only option now is to make it right. There really is no argument. Will it ever be an issue, probably never in a million years. That's unfortunately not the issue though, the issue is fixing a code violation that he decided to manifest and create in front of her, assuming she wouldn't care. Assuming is where he went wrong. Like you said, the better option was to check with the customer before moving forward with it. This didn't happen. His assumption was wrong, and now the price must be paid and the code violation must be appropriately handled. It's silly and I'd be frustrated. It's just an unfortunate situation that she decided to act on, and because we're specifically dealing with a code violation, IMO it must be corrected now.

If anything you can try talking her out of it by saying that you can indeed bring the receiver out of the wall, but it'll require buying a fan that has enough space for a receiver. Either that or you can tell her that you'll need to add a larger box it can fit into, but you'll have to cut out the sheetrock and safely secure a new box down that is larger. Her sheetrock will need to be repaired afterwards and then the electrician can return to finish the installing of the fan and receiver. This is a different scope of work that she must pay to have done of course. This is what originally should have been said to give her different options, and then she could have made the decision and most likely been persuaded into just doing what he did. Of course it's easy to say this in hindsight, but hey she turned out to be THAT customer lol. She's unfortunately not in the wrong which makes this matter a bit of a frustrating one. At the very least, I'd get on the phone with her and explain that you talked to the electrician and that this is why he did what he did, and here are the options to get around it. Most likely her entire attitude will change after this. Now the code violation is 100% on her shoulders and not on yours, and she can decide from there.


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

If the guy refunded her 30% that says a lot on what the guy thinks of his own work, regardless of what the customer said.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

He strikes again


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

Majewski said:


> He strikes again


While everyone else was having coffee at 9am….he left his drinks on the shelf I see…


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## dspiffy (Nov 25, 2013)

Majewski said:


> He strikes again


Should have used heat shrink instead of wire nuts, would have looked more professional.


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

dspiffy said:


> Should have used heat shrink instead of wire nuts, would have looked more professional.


And clap on a piece of wiremold to cover it up.


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

dspiffy said:


> Should have used heat shrink instead of wire nuts, would have looked more professional.





460 Delta said:


> And clap on a piece of wiremold to cover it up.


But if he didn't leave his hackery obvious, would we laugh at it? Kind of like if a tree falls in the forest...


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

yankeejoe1141 said:


> But if he didn't leave his hackery obvious, would we laugh at it? Kind of like if a tree falls in the forest...


That was amateur hackery, a professional hack would have made a Western Union splice with heat shrink tubing, then Wiremold to conceal the whole affair.


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

460 Delta said:


> That was amateur hackery, a professional hack would have made a Western Union splice with heat shrink tubing, then Wiremold to conceal the whole affair.


Definitely would get more points for effort!


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## taglicious (Feb 8, 2020)

Almost Retired said:


> Another thing: I have been seeing some really crazy foreign fans from the internet lately. they dont even have a ul mark anywhere. the mfg may have intended the remote receiver to be remote from the fan
> 
> and finally does it look right and work properly?


UL doesn't have to be. Do your research. Please. There are quite a few reasons.


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## taglicious (Feb 8, 2020)

Greg Sparkovich said:


> I couldn't do a job and recommended another electrician. The guy is licensed and was actually trained by my old boss, so I figured I'd pass it off to him.
> Long story short:
> Customer emails me with complaints and says the guy installed a fan remote receiver in the ceiling, not under the fan canopy. I say, that's some crazy ****; you can't have wire-nut connections outside a junction box and you need to maintain accessibility.
> She says he told her that it's OK within 6' of the fixture. I can't even imagine where I'd find this in the NEC because it would have to be an exception to a rule.
> ...


Exposed for viewing pleasure.

i still would take pics. As a personal note, to alleviate the homeowners stress, and to talk to the guy after you've seen it. Eventually, your name will be brought up.


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## taglicious (Feb 8, 2020)

Majewski said:


> That reflects iffy on you, inmo.


I want to dislike you, but I can't 🤣🤣


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## pokeytwo (Dec 6, 2015)

Why be embarrassed to call the inspector? If you cant do it, give the homeowner the necessary info and urge her to do it. Bet he didn't pull a permit and neither would I but rules are rules. I don’t pull permits but I don’t do non-compliant work either.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

taglicious said:


> I want to dislike you, but I can't 🤣🤣


Welcome to the club


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## Djea3 (Mar 8, 2019)

pokeytwo said:


> If you cant do it, give the homeowner the necessary info and urge her to do it. Bet he didn't pull a permit and neither would I but rules are rules.


In Texas I pulled permit for a small job. I actually had waited for him for 2 hours and then had to take a leak. 5 mins later a red tag and no inspector. I Spent hours trying to get him to talk to me and explain his tag.
Finally two day later I gave up and called for inspection again. New inspector. I asked him what happened to the other guy. He was fired for going fishing on city time.
I showed the new inspector the red tag and asked what this is about? He pocketed the tag and told me he would remove the notice, then signed off. Apparently the inspector was rejecting all kinds of things and going fishing.
My point. I stopped getting permits for small jobs. PERIOD. It was not worth the hours of work to deal with inspectors and NO CLIENT will agree to pay for that kind of time burned up by the city. Cheaper to pay the penalty for not getting the permit before starting than to have inspection involved.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Djea3 said:


> In Texas I pulled permit for a small job. I actually had waited for him for 2 hours and then had to take a leak. 5 mins later a red tag and no inspector. I Spent hours trying to get him to talk to me and explain his tag.
> Finally two day later I gave up and called for inspection again. New inspector. I asked him what happened to the other guy. He was fired for going fishing on city time.
> I showed the new inspector the red tag and asked what this is about? He pocketed the tag and told me he would remove the notice, then signed off. Apparently the inspector was rejecting all kinds of things and going fishing.
> My point. I stopped getting permits for small jobs. PERIOD. It was not worth the hours of work to deal with inspectors and NO CLIENT will agree to pay for that kind of time burned up by the city. Cheaper to pay the penalty for not getting the permit before starting than to have inspection involved.


Sinner


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## taglicious (Feb 8, 2020)

Majewski said:


> Sinner


One poignant word🚨


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

Majewski said:


> Sinner


Are you PeterD’s Jewish alter ego?


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

460 Delta said:


> Are you PeterD’s Jewish alter ego?


Shhhhh you gentile


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## MikeWhitfield (Aug 1, 2011)

JasonCo said:


> Edit: Wow what a long read sorry
> 
> I'm still confused on what's described. Idk if the hole + wires are visible to the naked eye next to the fan, or the hole is within the interior shell of the fan base. If so, then I'd be okay with this. If not, 100% fix it. This is sort of beating around the bush though.
> 
> ...


I agree with all this in principle (and well said/well reasoned) but as I read the OP's posts, seems to me that the recommended electrician cut a hole in the ceiling to reach power for the downlights. There's now a wireless receiver, but the fan still only works if the lights are on - although maybe now it's a different set of lights given that the downlights could be separately switched. Given that the OP stated that there's not sufficient access to easily replace or run another cable, the only real thing to do would be remove the work the recommended contractor did and either mount the receiver inside the fan house (I'm assuming that isn't practical or else the guy would have done that since it's sooo much easier) or provide a different, smaller receiver that will fit into the fan housing, assuming the fan housing has sufficient room for any such. And this still might not make her happy because if she cuts off the wall switch, no lights or fan with the remote. (I'm assuming here that the electrician used a receiver with a remote but without a transmitting wall switch, otherwise why bother with the downlights' wiring at all?) If I fixed it on my own dime, I'd sure plant the suggestion that not many electricians do things the way I do things and thus such fumduckery is practically guaranteed if she uses anybody else.


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## taglicious (Feb 8, 2020)

MikeWhitfield said:


> I agree with all this in principle (and well said/well reasoned) but as I read the OP's posts, seems to me that the recommended electrician cut a hole in the ceiling to reach power for the downlights. There's now a wireless receiver, but the fan still only works if the lights are on - although maybe now it's a different set of lights given that the downlights could be separately switched. Given that the OP stated that there's not sufficient access to easily replace or run another cable, the only real thing to do would be remove the work the recommended contractor did and either mount the receiver inside the fan house (I'm assuming that isn't practical or else the guy would have done that since it's sooo much easier) or provide a different, smaller receiver that will fit into the fan housing, assuming the fan housing has sufficient room for any such. And this still might not make her happy because if she cuts off the wall switch, no lights or fan with the remote. (I'm assuming here that the electrician used a receiver with a remote but without a transmitting wall switch, otherwise why bother with the downlights' wiring at all?) If I fixed it on my own dime, I'd sure plant the suggestion that not many electricians do things the way I do things and thus such fumduckery is practically guaranteed if she uses anybody else.


👀 I'm watching everything you do from now on


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## taglicious (Feb 8, 2020)

O.P.
After long thought. Perusing the code. Searching the interwebs, the only feasible 'code' i can 'come up with' is this

as soon as i'm 6' away, i can run code. Or maybe he was stating HIS COVID GUIDELINES RIGHTS🥳😂🔫🔫

p.s. i have forwarded this link to a friend of mine who has a photographic memory, or just a graphic memory, i cant remember😇 being a member here, he may actually give a response, but don't get blue waiting.


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## Kevin (Feb 14, 2017)

I only refer people to companies that I currently OR have worked for in the past. If it's a company I worked for in the past, I let them know that they were a great company when I was working for them, but it may have changed after I left. 

Recommendations are hard to do. It makes you look like an a$$ if they charge an arm and a kidney for the job, and on the other side, they may do $h!t like this that just leaves you wondering how they're still in business...

I'd have told the customer I'd come and fix it for a reduced rate just to keep them happy.


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## taglicious (Feb 8, 2020)

Kevin said:


> I only refer people to companies that I currently OR have worked for in the past. If it's a company I worked for in the past, I let them know that they were a great company when I was working for them, but it may have changed after I left.
> 
> Recommendations are hard to do. It makes you look like an a$$ if they charge an arm and a kidney for the job, and on the other side, they may do $h!t like this that just leaves you wondering how they're still in business...
> 
> I'd have told the customer I'd come and fix it for a reduced rate just to keep them happy.


Can i git an AMEN


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## JasonCo (Mar 23, 2015)

MikeWhitfield said:


> I agree with all this in principle (and well said/well reasoned) but as I read the OP's posts, seems to me that the recommended electrician cut a hole in the ceiling to reach power for the downlights. There's now a wireless receiver, but the fan still only works if the lights are on - although maybe now it's a different set of lights given that the downlights could be separately switched. Given that the OP stated that there's not sufficient access to easily replace or run another cable, the only real thing to do would be remove the work the recommended contractor did and either mount the receiver inside the fan house (I'm assuming that isn't practical or else the guy would have done that since it's sooo much easier) or provide a different, smaller receiver that will fit into the fan housing, assuming the fan housing has sufficient room for any such. And this still might not make her happy because if she cuts off the wall switch, no lights or fan with the remote. (I'm assuming here that the electrician used a receiver with a remote but without a transmitting wall switch, otherwise why bother with the downlights' wiring at all?) If I fixed it on my own dime, I'd sure plant the suggestion that not many electricians do things the way I do things and thus such fumduckery is practically guaranteed if she uses anybody else.


I took the OP's description to what the electrician did as follows. The electrician bypassed the wall switch so there is now just a junction box with a blank cover, bringing the constant hot up to the light. So you have a constant hot with a neutral at the light. Then he replaced the existing 14/2 going from the light to fan (This was here prior to her purchasing the home) with a 14/3. He of course spliced the neutral to the light and fan, but brought the constant hot and 3rd conductor to the ceiling fan. Then from there he tied the constant hot to the receiver, and wired the fan to the fan portion of the receiver. He took the light portion of the receiver and tied it to that 3rd conductor going back to the light fixture. So now there is no wall switch but a remote controller that controls both light and fan, which can individually control each one separately. 

...and somehow these fumduckeries are still able to reel in enough fish to keep the boat afloat, all while using the cheapest bait money can buy. Hell some of them are even upgrading to a full on yacht lol. The world we live in...


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

JasonCo said:


> I took the OP's description to what the electrician did as follows. The electrician bypassed the wall switch so there is now just a junction box with a blank cover, bringing the constant hot up to the light. So you have a constant hot with a neutral at the light. Then he replaced the existing 14/2 going from the light to fan (This was here prior to her purchasing the home) with a 14/3. He of course spliced the neutral to the light and fan, but brought the constant hot and 3rd conductor to the ceiling fan. Then from there he tied the constant hot to the receiver, and wired the fan to the fan portion of the receiver. He took the light portion of the receiver and tied it to that 3rd conductor going back to the light fixture. So now there is no wall switch but a remote controller that controls both light and fan, which can individually control each one separately.
> 
> ...and somehow these fumduckeries are still able to reel in enough fish to keep the boat afloat, all while using the cheapest bait money can buy. Hell some of them are even upgrading to a full on yacht lol. The world we live in...


Aint it grand?


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## taglicious (Feb 8, 2020)

.... 🤔 210.12


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

taglicious said:


> .... 🤔 210.12


210 and 406 for starters…


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## taglicious (Feb 8, 2020)

Majewski said:


> 210 and 406 for starters…


Lol 406


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

taglicious said:


> Lol 406


Lol


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## MikeWhitfield (Aug 1, 2011)

JasonCo said:


> I took the OP's description to what the electrician did as follows. The electrician bypassed the wall switch so there is now just a junction box with a blank cover, bringing the constant hot up to the light. So you have a constant hot with a neutral at the light. Then he replaced the existing 14/2 going from the light to fan (This was here prior to her purchasing the home) with a 14/3. He of course spliced the neutral to the light and fan, but brought the constant hot and 3rd conductor to the ceiling fan. Then from there he tied the constant hot to the receiver, and wired the fan to the fan portion of the receiver. He took the light portion of the receiver and tied it to that 3rd conductor going back to the light fixture. So now there is no wall switch but a remote controller that controls both light and fan, which can individually control each one separately.
> 
> ...and somehow these fumduckeries are still able to reel in enough fish to keep the boat afloat, all while using the cheapest bait money can buy. Hell some of them are even upgrading to a full on yacht lol. The world we live in...


That actually sounds like it would have given the homeowner most of what she wanted, assuming he back wired the downlights through the transceiver with the fan light - assuming the transceiver could handle that load. And assuming she doesn't mind searching a dark room for a small (probably black) remote to turn on the lights. Otherwise the can lights wouldn't ever turn off - although that would explain her comment about not wanting to sleep with the lights on. But surely no electrician would wire bedroom lights such that they can't be turned off?

Hopefully Greg drops back in later to tell us all the grisly details.


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## dspiffy (Nov 25, 2013)

MikeWhitfield said:


> That actually sounds like it would have given the homeowner most of what she wanted, assuming he back wired the downlights through the transceiver with the fan light - assuming the transceiver could handle that load. And assuming she doesn't mind searching a dark room for a small (probably black) remote to turn on the lights. Otherwise the can lights wouldn't ever turn off - although that would explain her comment about not wanting to sleep with the lights on. But surely no electrician would wire bedroom lights such that they can't be turned off?
> 
> Hopefully Greg drops back in later to tell us all the grisly details.


For some reason I didnt read it that way.

Wiring the can lights through the fan's light control always amuses me. I've done it with relays when the load was too much.


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## MikeWhitfield (Aug 1, 2011)

dspiffy said:


> For some reason I didnt read it that way.
> 
> Wiring the can lights through the fan's light control always amuses me. I've done it with relays when the load was too much.


Almost a no-win situation - you know the homeowner is going to be displeased with either the results or the cost.


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

I never recommend anyone with 2 exceptions. there's a GC I've worked with for 30+ years and a MoTech dealer I've been friends with for 30+ years. I'll recommend both of them but beyond that I give referrals and clearly state "this is not a recommendation"


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## taglicious (Feb 8, 2020)

five.five-six said:


> I never recommend anyone with 2 exceptions. there's a GC I've worked with for 30+ years and a MoTech dealer I've been friends with for 30+ years. I'll recommend both of them but beyond that I give referrals and clearly state "this is not a recommendation"


^^^THAT^^^
Is a scholarly answer!
View attachment 160888


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