# wire this resi. circuit



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

We also hitting the two receptacles or just fan and lights?

-John


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## 3xdad (Jan 25, 2011)

Yes, catch the 2 recepts.


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## D-Bo (Apr 15, 2012)

for starters i wouldn't install 4 gang boxes but anyway id probably pull three 12/3s from first 4 gang to second 4 gang and then two 12/3s from second 4 gang to 2 gang. feed would go from first 4 gang box to recep to recep to second 4 gang box


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

You guys have tons of 12/4 now, what with all the required neutral conductors and AFCI circuits, right? I assumed you would:








That's the minimum number of conductors I can figure. Hot and neutral run through the wall with the recepts.

-John


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## MIKEFLASH (Apr 14, 2012)

Here's how i would wire it


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

MIKEFLASH said:


> Here's how i would wire it
> 
> View attachment 13950


me too- but I would feed the recep. first


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Large John, I can tell you're not a residential guy because what you propose is nothing short of a box fill and splicing nightmare at the fan. :laughing:


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Peter D said:


> Large John, I can tell you're not a residential guy because what you propose is nothing short of a box fill and splicing nightmare at the fan. :laughing:


 Yeah, I gotta admit _Mike's _solution for those 4 ways looks a hell of a lot more appealing. :whistling2: You don't think you could get all of those wires in one of these?









-John


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Peter D said:


> Large John, I can tell you're not a residential guy because what you propose is nothing short of a box fill and splicing nightmare at the fan. :laughing:


You finally posted something I can agree with.. :laughing:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

B4T said:


> You finally posted something I can agree with.. :laughing:


You agree with me all the time but you're just afraid to say it. :yes:


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## 3xdad (Jan 25, 2011)

MIKEFLASH said:


> Here's how i would wire it


That's how i wired it. The ceiling is 18' vaulted, so the fans and center exterior light are way the hell up there. After i blew thru a 250 coil of 12/3, i thought i better ask you guys.:laughing:



Dennis Alwon said:


> me too- but I would feed the recep. first


With the HR Dennis?


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## Theriot (Aug 27, 2011)

It still a box filler at the return for the fan.


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## 3xdad (Jan 25, 2011)

Big John said:


> Yeah, I gotta admit _Mike's _solution for those 4 ways looks a hell of a lot more appealing. :whistling2: You don't think you could get all of those wires in one of these?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


:laughing:

i appreciate it tho, John. i was gonna say, damn, should i install a Hoffman box next to the fan?:jester:

You bring up a good point with the 12-4 or 12-2-2, that's what i was getting at in the OP.


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## Theriot (Aug 27, 2011)

The only thing I use 12-4 for is the heat vent lights. What are some of the reasons y'all use it?


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

MIKEFLASH said:


> Here's how i would wire it
> 
> View attachment 13950


I'm not a resi guy, but don't you need 12/4 cables going to the 4-way switches since the OP said wired to the 2011 code and doesn't that mean that 404.2(c) requires a neutral be in that box?

Now that I think about it, I guess the neutral is there, just not the "hot" (travelers only).


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

Big John said:


> You guys have tons of 12/4 now, what with all the required neutral conductors and AFCI circuits, right? I assumed you would:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I can't figure out how to make the 4-ways work with just a 12/4. Don't you need a neutral conductor? That would mean a 12/5, right?


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

I'd be the cheater and run 12/2 travelers alongside my 12/3 for the double set up controlling the fan


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## electrictim510 (Sep 9, 2008)

Theriot said:


> The only thing I use 12-4 for is the heat vent lights. What are some of the reasons y'all use it?


I think most use it for 2 gfci or afci circuit mostly. Ive never seen or used a roll of it. I dont do many new homes though so I havent needed to invest in a roll as of yet.


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

just use a 6x6 with a pancake bolted to it...done.....


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## electrictim510 (Sep 9, 2008)

hardworkingstiff said:


> I can't figure out how to make the 4-ways work with just a 12/4. Don't you need a neutral conductor? That would mean a 12/5, right?


Dont technically need a neutral at the switch. Although I think it is soon to be code to do so.Just use a 12/3 or 14/3 to hit the fan and there is your neutral to fan.


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## 3xdad (Jan 25, 2011)

Shockdoc said:


> I'd be the cheater and run 12/2 travelers alongside my 12/3 for the double set up controlling the fan


Or send power over to other switch box via one of those 12-3's.:whistling2:


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

electrictim510 said:


> Dont technically need a neutral at the switch. Although I think it is soon to be code to do so.Just use a 12/3 or 14/3 to hit the fan and there is your neutral to fan.


What about 404.2(c), 2011 NEC (as per the OP)?

I wasn't talking about the fan, the neutral gets there. I was referring to the codes section stated. I agree, I don't see the necessity to have a neutral at the 4-ways, other than 404.2(C).


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

3xdad said:


> Or send power over to other switch box via one of those 12-3's.:whistling2:


I hate 12 wire....


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## Theriot (Aug 27, 2011)

electrictim510 said:


> I think most use it for 2 gfci or afci circuit mostly. Ive never seen or used a roll of it. I dont do many new homes though so I havent needed to invest in a roll as of yet.


I do see some guys around here use 12-4 to feed two separate room. I just run two 12-2 one for each room. I can't think of a good enough reason to change but can't think of any reason that what they are doing is wrong either.


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## walkerj (May 13, 2007)

Theriot said:


> I do see some guys around here use 12-4 to feed two separate room. I just run two 12-2 one for each room. I can't think of a good enough reason to change but can't think of any reason that what they are doing is wrong either.


One less wire


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## electrictim510 (Sep 9, 2008)

Theriot said:


> I do see some guys around here use 12-4 to feed two separate room. I just run two 12-2 one for each room. I can't think of a good enough reason to change but can't think of any reason that what they are doing is wrong either.


Maybe if the two rooms are far enough away from the panel it may be worth it to run a 12/4...idk


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## Theriot (Aug 27, 2011)

walkerj said:


> One less wire


Beside that one. Lol


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Shockdoc said:


> I hate 12 wire....


There's no need to use #12 for resi lighting circuits.


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## electrictim510 (Sep 9, 2008)

Peter D said:


> There's no need to use #12 for resi lighting circuits.


That is my view also. If youre overloading a 15 amp lighting circuit then someone didnt line it out right and you need another 15 amp circuit. :thumbsup:


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

What's the cost of 12/2 and 12/4 ?


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## MIKEFLASH (Apr 14, 2012)

Peter D said:


> There's no need to use #12 for resi lighting circuits.


We never used it for lighting was just drawing what wire he wanted to use


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## Dierte (May 12, 2009)

hardworkingstiff said:


> What's the cost of 12/2 and 12/4 ?


I bought a 250' roll of 14/2/2 for $150 at the depot a month or two ago.


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## 3xdad (Jan 25, 2011)

Peter D said:


> There's no need to use #12 for resi lighting circuits.


i agree, but this circuit includes some general use recepts, and in my state, it has to be 12.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

3xdad said:


> i agree, but this circuit includes some general use recepts, and in my state, it has to be 12.


Wow, that's a really pointless rule.


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## 3xdad (Jan 25, 2011)

Theriot said:


> I do see some guys around here use 12-4 to feed two separate room. I just run two 12-2 one for each room. I can't think of a good enough reason to change but can't think of any reason that what they are doing is wrong either.


A good enough reason NOT to change is a two pole AFCI.:thumbsup:


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## 3xdad (Jan 25, 2011)

Peter D said:


> Wow, that's a really pointless rule.


i'll see if i can type it verbatim. There were some doosies in the 08 ammend. Like running an 1 1/4 pipe thru the roof at the panel for future PV.

Didn't make sense if the service equip is a ped out in the yard.:laughing:

Went away in '11.


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## electrictim510 (Sep 9, 2008)

hardworkingstiff said:


> What about 404.2(c), 2011 NEC (as per the OP)?
> 
> I wasn't talking about the fan, the neutral gets there. I was referring to the codes section stated. I agree, I don't see the necessity to have a neutral at the 4-ways, other than 404.2(C).


Overlooked the 2011 part. Im in Cali and we probably won't be implementing the 2011 NEC until 3012. :laughing:


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## 3xdad (Jan 25, 2011)

There's actually two fans up there, but after running all that 12-3, i was a little disgusted. Probably shoulda told the HO to buy RC fans and do away with two runs of cable.


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## wesleydnunder (Mar 19, 2012)

Peter D said:


> There's no need to use #12 for resi lighting circuits.


Some places have a minimum #12 rule. #14 not allowed at all.

Mark


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

wesleydnunder said:


> Some places have a minimum #12 rule. #14 not allowed at all.
> 
> Mark


And those rules are ridiculous.


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## wesleydnunder (Mar 19, 2012)

Peter D said:


> And those rules are ridiculous.


Possibly... I don't agree with all the rules I've had to work under over the years. You learn to adapt and work within the rules... or you get your dream job as the thong inspector at the strip club.

Mark


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## Theriot (Aug 27, 2011)

wesleydnunder said:


> Possibly... I don't agree with all the rules I've had to work under over the years. You learn to adapt and work within the rules... or you get your dream job as the thong inspector at the strip club.
> 
> Mark


The local rule and I know it's code but that don't make it not stupid was the garage door opener needing to be gfi. I fought this forever. One day I found myself with the head inspector and had a few thing to say about this. Two days later it was no longer needed.


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

Peter D said:


> You agree with me all the time but you're just afraid to say it. :yes:


The two hacks on here are in complete agreement.:laughing:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Chris1971 said:


> The two hacks on here are in complete agreement.:laughing:


No way....:laughing:


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

HARRY304E said:


> No way....:laughing:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Chris1971 said:


> The two hacks on here are in complete agreement.:laughing:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Peter D said:


>


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## electrictim510 (Sep 9, 2008)

:bangin:


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## Theriot (Aug 27, 2011)

Everyone rolleyes


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## SVT CAMR (Apr 17, 2012)

OP I would pipe it with 1/2" just like your drawing and pick up the 2 receptacles from the single poles fixtures on each side. 

I would use the 4 gangs because more switches = more $$$$

Also depending on the layout I might have piped the entire left hand side together with the two 4 gangs on the ends.


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## 3xdad (Jan 25, 2011)

Shockdoc said:


> I'd be the cheater and run 12/2 travelers alongside my 12/3 for the double set up controlling the fan


Do you guys see anything wrong with this? Neutral still in all 3 switch boxes.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

I just have a hard time running lighting outlets & receptacle outlets on the same circuit fellas

reading these 3 pages i can clearly see y'all pasring out what i'd have already seperated

~CS~


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## Modern Castle Inc. (Nov 9, 2011)

I would feed the receptacles and the fan then use these......

http://www.wayfair.com/Westinghouse...-Fan-and-Light-Wall-Control-77875-WL3210.html

No wires, just a controller in the fan canopy.....
You guys and your wires......


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## MIKEFLASH (Apr 14, 2012)

Modern Castle Inc. said:


> I would feed the receptacles and the fan then use these......
> 
> http://www.wayfair.com/Westinghouse-Lighting-Wireless-Ceiling-Fan-and-Light-Wall-Control-77875-WL3210.html
> 
> ...


Depends on what the customer provides if they want a remote i would wire it that way.


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## MIKEFLASH (Apr 14, 2012)

Good to find out in the rough stage what fans their gonna get


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## Theriot (Aug 27, 2011)

I love it when I wire up 4-ways for fan and light just to have the HO buy a remote fan. Mad I get.


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## MIKEFLASH (Apr 14, 2012)

Theriot said:


> I love it when I wire up 4-ways for fan and light just to have the HO buy a remote fan. Mad I get.


Happened several times, nice to have a bunch of switches that are useless 


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## ElectricJoeNJ (Feb 24, 2011)

hardworkingstiff said:


> I can't figure out how to make the 4-ways work with just a 12/4. Don't you need a neutral conductor? That would mean a 12/5, right?


You don't need 12/4 wire. If you notice the feed comes in at the 1st 4 gang and the switch leg is at the other 4 gang. That means the neutral is being passed through and the travelers are the black and reds.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

ElectricJoeNJ said:


> You don't need 12/4 wire. If you notice the feed comes in at the 1st 4 gang and the switch leg is at the other 4 gang. That means the neutral is being passed through and the travelers are the black and reds.


I was responding to the drawing that showed (2) 12/3's from the light box to the 4-ways. There is no way to make that work.

12/3 from the box with the power brings in 2 travelers and a neutral. Then on of the other switch locations needs 2 sets of travelers and a neutral to make it work. The location of the 4-ways only has 2 12/3's for 2 4-ways. I can't see how that can work.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Why in the world would anyone put three coach lights on the same wall on three different switches?


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## 3xdad (Jan 25, 2011)

Shockdoc said:


> Why in the world would anyone put three coach lights on the same wall on three different switches?


This house's switching setup does have me a little perturbed. i just drew a simple sketch of what's actually there. 

The two end lights are outside exterior doors and the one in the center is a security flood.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

With all that jazz going on I'd probably drill and pull smurf tube with conductors, and parallel color travelers thru for the switching.


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## Svtlightning207 (Apr 2, 2012)

Whatever happened to the good old days, when people got off their lazy ass and walked over to the fan and used the pull string?


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## Tiger (Jan 3, 2008)

In most of my territory I would be doing this in conduit and using stranded wire, so the only question would be...how many wires am I pulling in this conduit?


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## mdfriday (May 14, 2007)

Tiger said:


> In most of my territory I would be doing this in conduit and using stranded wire, so the only question would be...how many wires am I pulling in this conduit?


This is where conduit makes life easier...

:thumbup:


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## Svtlightning207 (Apr 2, 2012)

Everyone else was drawing pics soo this is what i came up with


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## Svtlightning207 (Apr 2, 2012)

well i forgot a couple lights lol! woops, but you get the idea.


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## cal1947 (Nov 14, 2009)

*tofer*

kiss , keep it simple stupid


captkirk said:


> just use a 6x6 with a pancake bolted to it...done.....


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## Seth19 (May 17, 2012)

*Knowing codes better*

I need help know codes better some are hard to follow in the code book. I need it to be more blunt of what you can and can't do residential. And what most inspectors like?


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