# Breaker ties



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Handle ties are in the 2020 code seven places. The word they use is identified.


Identified (as applied to equipment).



Recognizable as suitable for the specific purpose, function, use, environment, application, and so forth, where described in a particular _Code_requirement. (CMP-1)
Informational Note: 
Some examples of ways to determine suitability of equipment for a specific purpose, environment, or application include investigations by a qualified testing laboratory (listing and labeling), an inspection agency, or other organizations concerned with product evaluation.


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## mburtis (Sep 1, 2018)

But if they didn't want you to use a 8 penny nail why do they put the hole there in the handle....


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## wiz1997 (Mar 30, 2021)

I seem to recall using #9 ceiling grid wire a few times.


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## Bob Kenney (Jan 31, 2012)

Some (I won't say who) have suggested the only reason for a breaker handle tie is to make manual tripping of both ungrounded connectors necessary. They go on to say that because the nail, wire, whatever identifies the two legs of the circuit a manufacturer's tie isn't needed. Overload tripping of both circuits will not occur but that's OK.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

mburtis said:


> But if they didn't want you to use a 8 penny nail why do they put the hole there in the handle....


Make sure it is a finishing nail or you might be able to reset the breaker


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## mburtis (Sep 1, 2018)

I know we have a couple at the plant with a piece of gas welding rod through them. Code wise though you basically would have to buy them from the breaker manufacture listed for the specific breaker right ? Functionally I don't know if it matters...


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

Bob Kenney said:


> Some (I won't say who) have suggested the only reason for a breaker handle tie is to make manual tripping of both ungrounded connectors necessary. They go on to say that because the nail, wire, whatever identifies the two legs of the circuit a manufacturer's tie isn't needed. Overload tripping of both circuits will not occur but that's OK.


I thought i remembered a code description of "common trip" for 220V breakers ?


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

I don't think we need them period. If the job can't afford a 2-pole breaker, there's something wrong.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Almost Retired said:


> I thought i remembered a code description of "common trip" for 220V breakers ?




Handle ties
100 Definitions
225.33(B)
240.15(B)(1)
240.15(B)(2)
240.15(B)(3)
240.15(B)(4)
550.11(C)
590.4(E)


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

joe-nwt said:


> I don't think we need them period. If the job can't afford a 2-pole breaker, there's something wrong.


I agree but sometimes you get stuck on a job and you must improvise. New but defective breaker. Unexpected brand breaker. etc.... How many breakers can one keep in the truck? I try to keep 2 - double poles of the popular brands and sizes.


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## wiz1997 (Mar 30, 2021)

This account is a bit of the opposite.
A couple of years ago I started with this company and the Maintenance supervisor is the only one that really knew my background.
Our Maintenance supervisor was out because he tested postive to the virus. 
The Plant Manager is now "supervising".

Walked up on a conversation between the Plant manager and an electrical contractor they had used previously.
The only space left in the panel had a two pole 20 amp bolt-in breaker in it.
The contractor was explaining he would have to remove the 2 pole breaker and install two 1 pole breakers.
If he did it live, he would have to use arc flash gear and have to charge extra for "hazardous work".
If the panel was shutdown it would be safer and cost less.
OK, I'll agree with shutting down, but now you would need the production lines to be shutdown.
Both methods cost money.

I was asked what would I recommend?
This I said, and took out my tweeker screw driver, and popped the breaker tie piece off, there you are....2-1 pole breakers.

Contractor was PO'ed.

I really didn’t want this guy back in "MY" plant, he took advantage of the plant with some of his previous work, prior to my arrival.
He was hired to run power to five new exhaust fans in a warehouse expansion.
Five conduit runs, five roof disconnects, five 3 pole breakers.
What did he not install?
Five motor starters with overload protection.

I figure he took the company for about $5000.00 for the starters he didn't install.

Now after a storm that caused a loss of a phase, we have 5 rooftop exhaust fans with burnt out motors.
Also discovered the firestats were not wired up correctly, of course without a starter to wire them to, what do you do?
I know what you don't do.
He ran one phase of the 480 through the firestat which is only rated for 120.

Did I do the contractor wrong or did I do my employer right?

Plant manager was happy.


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## Swanny (Jul 21, 2021)

wiz1997 said:


> This account is a bit of the opposite.
> A couple of years ago I started with this company and the Maintenance supervisor is the only one that really knew my background.
> Our Maintenance supervisor was out because he tested postive to the virus.
> The Plant Manager is now "supervising".
> ...


You hate to hear it but it happens a lot. Obviously you did your employer right, **** that contractor.

Seems a lot of these plants have one of two approaches, they are totally hands off and let the contractors do what they want without competent inhouse guys to really verify their work, or they try to get involved in everything and penny pinch/micromanage every little 20$ part.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

The 2 pole breaker with the factory installed handle tie is almost certainly common trip. If one pole trips, the other will also trip. 

But I think you did the right thing.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

micromind said:


> The 2 pole breaker with the factory installed handle tie is almost certainly common trip. If one pole trips, the other will also trip.
> 
> But I think you did the right thing.


I agree, the tie handle should have stayed on, unless you needed to be switching either one without the other.


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## Kevin (Feb 14, 2017)

Something something listed device.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

A lot of places have pet outside contractor who rape the companies with high rates. I think there is something going under the table.


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## wiz1997 (Mar 30, 2021)

micromind said:


> The 2 pole breaker with the factory installed handle tie is almost certainly common trip. If one pole trips, the other will also trip.
> 
> But I think you did the right thing.


Most 2 pole breakers, depending on the design, with the handle tie removed will act as two separate breakers and will trip separately from one another.
A multi pole breaker with a single handle cannot be seperated.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

wiz1997 said:


> Most 2 pole breakers, depending on the design, with the handle tie removed will act as two separate breakers and will trip separately from one another.
> A multi pole breaker with a single handle cannot be seperated.


My experience has been that just about every factory made 2 pole is common trip, meaning that if one pole trips, the other will also. 

It's not the handle tie that connects the 2 poles, it's an internal bar that you can't see. 

With the handle tie removed, each pole can be manually turned on and off independent of the other but tripping is different.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

micromind said:


> My experience has been that just about every factory made 2 pole is common trip, meaning that if one pole trips, the other will also.
> 
> It's not the handle tie that connects the 2 poles, it's an internal bar that you can't see.
> 
> With the handle tie removed, each pole can be manually turned on and off independent of the other but tripping is different.


I did not think that they were tied inside until I drilled the rivets and saw the trip mechanism between the two.


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## dowtydaryll (Oct 20, 2021)

bobkenney79 said:


> Anyone know the codes that govern accepted breaker ties. I've seen nails, 12g wire, etc. I know those aren't right.


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## dowtydaryll (Oct 20, 2021)

kb1jb1 said:


> I did not think that they were tied inside until I drilled the rivets and saw the trip mechanism between the two.


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## dowtydaryll (Oct 20, 2021)

dowtydaryll said:


> View attachment 159213
> View attachment 159213





bobkenney79 said:


> Anyone know the codes that govern accepted breaker ties. I've seen nails, 12g wire, etc. I know those aren't right.







__





210.7 Code Change, 240.15(B)(1) Added clarification. – Jake Leahy's Electrical Code Connection







electricalcodeconnection.com


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## Djea3 (Mar 8, 2019)

wiz1997 said:


> What did he not install?
> Five motor starters with overload protection.
> I figure he took the company for about $5000.00 for the starters he didn't install.
> Now after a storm that caused a loss of a phase, we have 5 rooftop exhaust fans with burnt out motors.
> ...


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## Djea3 (Mar 8, 2019)

wiz1997 said:


> Five conduit runs, five roof disconnects, five 3 pole breakers.
> What did he not install?
> Five motor starters with overload protection.
> 
> ...


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

bobkenney79 said:


> Anyone know the codes that govern accepted breaker ties. I've seen nails, 12g wire, etc. I know those aren't right.


so many codes


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

So much of this thread has focused on two pole breakers. Hey kids, there are three pole breakers also. And..... multiwire circuits using three breakers need a handle tie as well.. An identified one. 3 pole breakers aren't cheap. At least bolt on's . Handle ties are though.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

who are these bobs kennys anyways


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

macmikeman said:


> So much of this thread has focused on two pole breakers. Hey kids, there are three pole breakers also. And..... multiwire circuits using three breakers need a handle tie as well.. An identified one. 3 pole breakers aren't cheap. At least bolt on's . Handle ties are though.


50 amp GFCI 2 pole bolt on breaker is $190, and it won’t be here until April.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Well, the gfi part throws a whole nuther angle at the present subject, no getting around that. You should have called me first, I think I have a br one hanging around the shop someplace.......


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

macmikeman said:


> Well, the gfi part throws a whole nuther angle at the present subject, no getting around that. You should have called me first, I think I have a br one hanging around the shop someplace.......


Siemens


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

backstay said:


> 50 amp GFCI 2 pole bolt on breaker is $190, and it won’t be here until April.


just do standard breaker then pass thru a spa pack lol jk


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Majewski said:


> just do standard breaker then pass thru a spa pack lol jk


I was going to but the location is unfriendly to spa panel (cover won’t open).


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

backstay said:


> I was going to but the location is unfriendly to spa panel (cover won’t open).


i figured youd do it if possible. atm i can get a ton of the tiny br 50's


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

The 100 amp 3 ph GFCI was over $500.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

backstay said:


> The 100 amp 3 ph GFCI was over $500.


yup. and it aint getting cheaper lol


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