# Residential wiring is so f'd up.



## henderson14 (Oct 23, 2010)

So I've been a commercial electrician all of my career, and now I'm doing residential side jobs. I'm shocked with how ****ty the wiring is. One big thing is the wires are never colored or identified correctly. You never know if a white is a neutral or hot. The wiring is also always solid and not stranded and they never seem to leave enough extra wire to work with.


----------



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

As an electrician that has work in commercial, industrial, residential and solar for 30 plus years, you are wrong. One, wires above #10 are not solid. Two, many times I have seen solid wire(#12) in conduit on both commercial and industrial jobs. Three, if you find white wires that are not grounded, they were installed wrong. Four, maybe you should stick to what you know and quit side jobbing.


----------



## PlugsAndLights (Jan 19, 2016)

backstay said:


> As an electrician that has work in commercial, industrial, residential and solar for 30 plus years, you are wrong. One, wires above #10 are not solid. Two, many times I have seen solid wire(#12) in conduit on both commercial and industrial jobs. Three, if you find white wires that are not grounded, they were installed wrong. Four, maybe you should stick to what you know and quit side jobbing.


And now you're wrong. Whites are routinely hot in switch legs and 
and the 3-wires of 3-ways.
P&L


----------



## henderson14 (Oct 23, 2010)

backstay said:


> As an electrician that has work in commercial, industrial, residential and solar for 30 plus years, you are wrong. One, wires above #10 are not solid. Two, many times I have seen solid wire(#12) in conduit on both commercial and industrial jobs. Three, if you find white wires that are not grounded, they were installed wrong. Four, maybe you should stick to what you know and quit side jobbing.


Wow. A lot of divas on this forum. Been to Home Depot lately? Or just go to their website. You can find solid wire in most wire sizes. I've never seen any romex not solid.

2. Yes. They were installed wrong. Further reinforcing my original point.

3. Thanks for the suggestion, but I will continue to side job.


----------



## Jmcstevenson (Sep 11, 2010)

There's nothing wrong with how resi is wired. Homeowners aren't waking up wishing they had more conductors or whining about solid vs stranded; the end result works. Most any resi guy can quickly identify circuits you just don't have the experience. 

Have you had your inspection yet? Might be worth it to have a resi guy look over your wiring the first few times, a lot of commercial guys get nailed on stuff for just not knowing. 

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

PlugsAndLights said:


> And now you're wrong. *Whites are routinely hot in switch legs and
> and the 3-wires of 3-ways.*
> P&L


And they should be marked as such!


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

henderson14 said:


> Wow. A lot of divas on this forum. Been to Home Depot lately? Or just go to their website. You can find solid wire in most wire sizes. I've never seen any romex not solid.
> 
> 2. Yes. They were installed wrong. Further reinforcing my original point.
> 
> 3. Thanks for the suggestion, *but I will continue to side job*.


Continue the trunkslammer tradition, no license, insurance, or overhead so you are under cutting all the guys that are doing it the legal way and you wonder why you take flak......


----------



## Jmcstevenson (Sep 11, 2010)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Continue the trunkslammer tradition, no license, insurance, or overhead so you are under cutting all the guys that are doing it the legal way and you wonder why you take flak......


Why would he pull permits. Resi is so easy he doesn't even need it inspected. 

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


----------



## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

Jmcstevenson said:


> Why would he pull permits. Resi is so easy he doesn't even need it inspected.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


Any idiot can do it.... 

It isn't stupid, it is different. Learn the ins and outs of it and you will soon be a real electrician! HAHAHAHAHA!


----------



## PlugsAndLights (Jan 19, 2016)

MechanicalDVR said:


> And they should be marked as such!


Might be different down there, but the CEC allows white wires to be
used in the ways I mentioned without marking. We learn it that way 
and it doesn't seem to cause any confusion. 
P&L


----------



## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Residential has its own conventions.


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

You guys are all young bucks. Identifying switch leg white conductors started in the 1990's in the code. Before that we all ran white wire legs down to a switch and back on black. Plenty of dumbasses did it backwards, down on black and return on white, but that is because they learned wiring on the job and never set foot in a classroom , nor did the boss who taught them wrong. 

Also any seasoned spark will know instantly which white wire is ''grounded'' and which one is not. It's pretty simple stuff actually, and therefore any pipe runner who doesn't know how to tell is actually the dumbass, not the rope monkey. Even further more, you guys are the ones spreading the myth of having to match the building when it comes to exit sign colors, but cannot provide a single code or written rule relating such a demand................


----------



## B-Nabs (Jun 4, 2014)

henderson14 said:


> Wow. A lot of divas on this forum. Been to Home Depot lately? Or just go to their website. You can find solid wire in most wire sizes. * I've never seen any romex not solid.*


Then I guess you've never seen #8 or larger romex. 

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


----------



## telsa (May 22, 2015)

macmikeman said:


> You guys are all young bucks. Identifying switch leg white conductors started in the 1990's in the code. Before that we all ran white wire legs down to a switch and back on black. Plenty of dumbasses did it backwards, down on black and return on white, but that is because they learned wiring on the job and never set foot in a classroom , nor did the boss who taught them wrong.
> 
> Also any seasoned spark will know instantly which white wire is ''grounded'' and which one is not. It's pretty simple stuff actually, and therefore any pipe runner who doesn't know how to tell is actually the dumbass, not the rope monkey. Even further more, you guys are the ones spreading the myth of having to match the building when it comes to exit sign colors, but cannot provide a single code or written rule relating such a
> demand................


I already posted: it's up to the whims of the FIRE MARSHALL.

He don't need any stinking book... yes, he's got a badge.


----------



## active1 (Dec 29, 2009)

henderson14 said:


> So I've been a commercial electrician all of my career, and now I'm doing residential side jobs. I'm shocked with how ****ty the wiring is. One big thing is the wires are never colored or identified correctly. You never know if a white is a neutral or hot. The wiring is also always solid and not stranded and they never seem to leave enough extra wire to work with.


Around the Chicago area? That's strange, because it's all EMT.
Did a ton of resi service work out there.
With the very rare exception of a homeowner or other trade doing the electrical work, everything I seen was colored correctly. Maybe I seen a few times some low end resi company used gray for a switch leg. Extremely old sometimes used green as a switch leg or switched the neutral. Seen old homes from the 60's where every circuit was a different color, but they only had about 8 circuits. 

You had the black and red hots for the A & B phase. Travelers were always the pair of colors (purple, yellow, pink, orange, brown). Switch legs were the single purple, yellow, pink, orange, brown. Blue and gray or some used purple and gray as a GFI load side. Sometimes an extra hot circuit was blue and gray wildcard that could be A or B phase. Never any re-identified colors or neutrals that weren't white. 

Most everything was at least a 4sq. If the wires didn't splice it was pulled thru most of the time. It really was some quality work.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Stranded wire is a pain in the ass. Why do you need stranded wire in a #14 or #12 cable? Solid wire is way better for device connections anyway.

Sure, whites can be used in switching. Big deal. If you shock yourself on a white wire, maybe you should go back to bending pipe for a living.


----------



## telsa (May 22, 2015)

99cents said:


> *Stranded wire is a pain in the ass. Why do you need stranded wire in a #14 or #12 cable?* Solid wire is way better for device connections anyway.
> 
> Sure, whites can be used in switching. Big deal. If you shock yourself on a white wire, maybe you should go back to bending pipe for a living.


Solid has its place, stranded has its place... even in #12 and #14.

Pulling solid into Walker duct is a nightmare... yes, even #12.

Make-up is quicker in solid -- that's for sure.

I can't recall #12 stranded CABLE unless it was Re-Loc. For it, stranded is a blessing.

( I'm sure there are other manufactured (cable) assemblies that use #12 stranded. )

You'll find stranded ALL OVER automobile circuits.

One must be _flexible_.

One of my favorite schemes: a round-robin in solid + a round robin in stranded -- in EMT... PLUS a grounding// bonding conductor in solid green... in a piped system.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

telsa said:


> Solid has its place, stranded has its place... even in #12 and #14.
> 
> Pulling solid into Walker duct is a nightmare... yes, even #12.
> 
> ...


But why would this dude want stranded wire in a house?


----------



## drewsserviceco (Aug 1, 2014)

PlugsAndLights said:


> Might be different down there, but the CEC allows white wires to be
> used in the ways I mentioned without marking. We learn it that way
> and it doesn't seem to cause any confusion.
> P&L



Any decent electrician should be able to look at the wiring scheme and know what's going on, even if every wire were all the same color. That's why I don't re-identify anything, screw the next guy, I know what I'm doing.


----------



## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

Lol!


----------



## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

henderson14 said:


> Wow. A lot of divas on this forum.


:laughing: Now I have to clean up my keyboard (coffee). THANKS!


----------



## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

macmikeman said:


> Even further more, you guys are the ones spreading the myth of having to match the building when it comes to exit sign colors, but cannot provide a single code or written rule relating such a demand................


Just save them for a green job or put them where they can't be seen at the same time.
I'm going to find a red insert and put a stamp on it and just send it to Hawaii and see if it finds you.


----------



## PlugsAndLights (Jan 19, 2016)

drewsserviceco said:


> Any decent electrician should be able to look at the wiring scheme and know what's going on, even if every wire were all the same color. That's why I don't re-identify anything, screw the next guy, I know what I'm doing.


T-shirt slogan? 
P&L


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Some of the commercial work I see is as bad or worse than some of the residential. Hacks are hacks and they are everywhere.


----------



## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

nrp3 said:


> Some of the commercial work I see is as bad or worse than some of the residential. Hacks are hacks and they are everywhere.


Yup.

I used to agree that white wires, when used in dead end 3-ways and stuff should be remarked, but now, meh. If you can't tell what a switch loop or dead end 3 way is by how its wired, I don't know what to tell you. 99% of the time I remark mine with tape or a sharpie, but still, it shouldn't be necessary if you know what you are doing.


----------



## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

I've been all over the electrical spectrum and can tell you that residential wiring doesn't suck because it's residential. It sucks because there are more houses than other types of buildings, therefore more chances of seeing it jacked up.

Yes, pop your head above any commercial ceiling, and you will likely see some F'd up wiring. Open a junction box in a factory that's been around a while, you will see some F'd up wiring.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Guess what? A good journeyman is one who got a wide variety of experience as an apprentice. Don't complain to me if you're a journeyman who has never seen house wiring before, especially if you're operating as Moonlight Electric.


----------



## drewsserviceco (Aug 1, 2014)

PlugsAndLights said:


> T-shirt slogan?
> P&L



KaBoom!! Electric Ltd. 
Est. 1980
"Screw the next guy"


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Jmcstevenson said:


> There's nothing wrong with how resi is wired. Homeowners aren't waking up wishing they had more conductors or whining about solid vs stranded; the end result works. Most any resi guy can quickly identify circuits you just don't have the experience.
> 
> Have you had your inspection yet? Might be worth it to have a resi guy look over your wiring the first few times, a lot of commercial guys get nailed on stuff for just not knowing.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


Ha, A trunkslammer getting an inspection? right


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

For a long time it was not required to reidentify the white wire. I actually think it is a stupid and unnecessary code. 
If you don't know what a switch leg or hot on a 2 wire circuit is you should not be doing this type of wiring. 
This is where I always laugh at how commercial guys act like they are so much better than resi guys. Then they come here asking questions because without a blue print or foreman they are like a lost puppy looking for a teet. 
Willing to bet money this joker blew up his ***** cutting a hot white.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Are you telling me you have never seen a black/white switch loop in a commercial building? I did one a couple of weeks ago  .


----------



## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

henderson14 said:


> Wow. A lot of divas on this forum. Been to Home Depot lately? Or just go to their website. You can find solid wire in most wire sizes. I've never seen any romex not solid.
> 
> 2. Yes. They were installed wrong. Further reinforcing my original point.
> 
> 3. Thanks for the suggestion, but I will continue to side job.


Give me a source where I can get 6-3 NM with solid conductors. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

This dude needs to go back to mindless commercial work. Obviously, residential is over his head.


----------



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

henderson14 said:


> Wow. A lot of divas on this forum. Been to Home Depot lately? Or just go to their website. You can find solid wire in most wire sizes. I've never seen any romex not solid.
> 
> 2. Yes. They were installed wrong. Further reinforcing my original point.
> 
> 3. Thanks for the suggestion, but I will continue to side job.


You're the crybaby that started this thread. I suggest you get a more well rounded electrical experience before you spout off about a part of this trade you are so lacking in. Here's a picture for you. Maybe try to stop at a Home Depot or check their web site. It took me 5 seconds to find that picture.


----------



## active1 (Dec 29, 2009)

In Vegas I seen more than my share of jacked up commercial wiring.
From the small restaurant bar, office buildings, retail, to mega resorts.
I'm talking about things that are flat out wrong in so many ways, code, safety, common since, and trade practice. But if your talking about cables with conductors not the correct color, that's just part of the game. 

Remember years ago I got a job for a medium size commercial industrial contractor. 
They had a high rise condo condo project I got hired to work on.
From day 1 they didn't have a clue about resi.
Yes it's not too hard and in the code book.
Always help them by voicing the mistakes they were making.
But being a new guy they didn't want to listen.
Why should they, they're a big commercial company that knows it all.
Didn't take a few weeks of getting hammered before they started to listen and gave me a raise. 
It started with the wall spaces with no receptacle.
Then the kitchen boxes back to back with the next unit.
The ark fault CBs need their own neutral.
The or the stoves need a neutral.
The deficiencies were discovered before they got too many floors.
But it was still time consuming to go to another floor and rework conduit.
I remember they came to me with some spools of white and said you were right about the stoves being 4 wire. Gave me a toolie and we spent days adding the conductor.

Myself I don't like plastic boxes, cable for anything besides shows, back stabbing, those ground crimps, bare grounds, grounding switches, EG's in branch conduit, AF CBs, & TR receptacles. But I'm old school.

Haven't done resi in years, and never with cables. If I did I would need to study on the changes and work with someone willing to assist.


----------



## henderson14 (Oct 23, 2010)

backstay said:


> You're the crybaby that started this thread. I suggest you get a more well rounded electrical experience before you spout off about a part of this trade you are so lacking in. Here's a picture for you. Maybe try to stop at a Home Depot or check their web site. It took me 5 seconds to find that picture.


Ive never met someone so excited and fired up to show me a picture of stranded romex. It does exist! Wow! It's still rare to see in residential.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Henderson, don't let these divas get you down.


----------



## drewsserviceco (Aug 1, 2014)

henderson14 said:


> Ive never met someone so excited and fired up to show me a picture of stranded romex. It does exist! Wow! It's still rare to see in residential.



Just used on ranges, hot tubs or a/c units, but you're right, pretty rare indeed.


----------



## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Am I too late to the gangbang?


----------



## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

White wire ... hmmmm ...letsss seeee...going to a switch?..wha..wha ...
WHAT THE F**K!!!! RESI FU***K*RS!!! and it's solid too boot? AHHHH
HHHHH ....SAY IT...SAY IT!!!!


----------



## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

Majewski said:


> Am I too late to the gangbang?


By all means..not at all


----------



## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Well than.....where do I put this?


----------



## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

backstay said:


> You're the crybaby that started this thread. I suggest you get a more well rounded electrical experience before you spout off about a part of this trade you are so lacking in. Here's a picture for you. Maybe try to stop at a Home Depot or check their web site. It took me 5 seconds to find that picture.


Home builder , lost his electrician and can't figure out the finish:tongue_smilie:
I refuse to believe this OP is actually an electrician.


----------



## Jmcstevenson (Sep 11, 2010)

henderson14 said:


> Ive never met someone so excited and fired up to show me a picture of stranded romex. It does exist! Wow! It's still rare to see in residential.


I thought you were new to resi how can you speak to what's typical. 

I do resi and commercial and I can attest that each is it's own bag. Some of the most challenging work I've done was resi service. 

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


----------



## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Just one of the reasons resi is fun.


----------



## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

Majewski said:


> Just one of the reasons resi is fun.


I know a guy out here that hates residential work and will only
do commercial. He uses pink as travelers.


----------



## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Today the same, found orange, pink and purple for travelers.....double 1/2" walls with some time of fake wood behind it......1/2" ceilings.....


----------



## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

henderson14 said:


> Ive never met someone so excited and fired up to show me a picture of stranded romex. *It does exist! Wow! It's still rare to see in residential.*


I know this is kind of a dead horse issue, but dude! *ALL* NM cable #8 and larger is stranded. Period, and of story. 

This is not an issue that warrants arguing or debating.


----------



## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

henderson14 said:


> So I've been a commercial electrician all of my career, and now I'm doing residential side jobs. I'm shocked with how ****ty the wiring is. One big thing is the wires are never colored or identified correctly. You never know if a white is a neutral or hot. The wiring is also always solid and not stranded and they never seem to leave enough extra wire to work with.


If you're in Chicago area where are you doing resi side work that is using NM cable? I thought that was verboten in your climate.

I agree with the others though, I see just as much jacked up crap in commercial as resi. Problem with resi, especially in my area, is lack of oversight and requirements/licensing. Any hack/"contractor"/homeowner/dentist/etc can do electrical work in most areas.


----------



## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

MechanicalDVR said:


> And they should be marked as such!


We used to just mark them by connecting to switch, if a white was hooked to a switch it was being used as a hot.

Now of course we tape or sharpie them


----------



## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

readydave8 said:


> We used to just mark them by connecting to switch, if a white was hooked to a switch it was being used as a hot.
> 
> Now of course we tape or sharpie them


Yeppers


----------



## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

These are fun too....


----------



## gnuuser (Jan 13, 2013)

Ive seen more than my share of messed up wiring in all branches.
the latest was a home made transformer!

we received a cooling hood with four 3 phase motors.
all the wire was ran in the conduit to a 8x8 junction box with extra long tails (enough to loop 4 times in the box)
for a total of 12 current carrying conductors.
the contractor crew who installed it did not cut the excess off when they connected to the vfd banks, but they did do a nice job of zip tying the bundle in a very neat package.
(this they did while i was away picking up supplies)
the asi safety network kept tripping out and when we started tracing things out we were getting a lot of induced voltage feedback.

opened the j box and laughed my @$$ off.
removed the "transformer" (excess length of conductors) and alls good:thumbsup:


----------



## telsa (May 22, 2015)

You omitted "air core" transformer.


----------



## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

I guess I was a bit grouchy this morning when I posted. The only resi work I have done in the past 2 months or so was on a house that we re-wired from knob and tube in 2009 that had a fire (non electrical!). Re-working my own work is pretty easy, to be honest. :laughing:


----------



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

henderson14 said:


> Ive never met someone so excited and fired up to show me a picture of stranded romex. It does exist! Wow! It's still rare to see in residential.


You are clueless. I feel sorry for anyone that would hire you.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Guess what I did today? Ran a three wire to a two gang box. Used the white as a hot to two switches and brought power back on the black and red. Isn't that enough to make your head explode? We can still do that in Canuckistan  .


----------



## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

lighterup said:


> I know a guy out here that hates residential work and will only
> do commercial. He uses pink as travelers.


We were wiring up a shop and had some 3W switches to install for the lighting. I dropped off some black, red, white and green for the job, had tons of half spools left over from other projects and most of the runs were short on this one. 

I go back 2 days later and none of the travelers have been pulled. I ask the Jman why.... "You didn't get any pink and purple, you have to use pink and purple for travelers", he tells me.

I of course ask for a code reference, which of course he doesn't know, mostly because it doesn't exist. Needless to say that was his last day. Pink and purple were supplied and required by your old bosses and foreman because they know too many guys are dumbasses and don't know any other way to identify conductors.


----------



## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Majewski said:


> Just one of the reasons resi is fun.


Ya and I just got one done yesterday .,, 

415Y240 volts circuits in very large resdentail.,, that is fun allright it own merit.,, :blink:


----------



## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

Switched said:


> We were wiring up a shop and had some 3W switches to install for the lighting. I dropped off some black, red, white and green for the job, had tons of half spools left over from other projects and most of the runs were short on this one.
> 
> I go back 2 days later and none of the travelers have been pulled. I ask the Jman why.... "You didn't get any pink and purple, you have to use pink and purple for travelers", he tells me.
> 
> I of course ask for a code reference, which of course he doesn't know, mostly because it doesn't exist. Needless to say that was his last day. Pink and purple were supplied and required by your old bosses and foreman because they know too many guys are dumbasses and don't know any other way to identify conductors.


That reminds me of when I was working for my old boss and came to a house his son and another guy started wiring. 

I asked why they didnt have the wire pulled for the receptacles yet.

"because we didnt have any boxes on the truck"


----------



## matt1124 (Aug 23, 2011)

The hardest part for me coming from commercial to residential was running romex. It's all willy-nilly not being secured to uni-strut!


----------



## active1 (Dec 29, 2009)

Speedy Petey said:


> If you're in Chicago area where are you doing resi side work that is using NM cable? I thought that was verboten in your climate.


NM cable and MC is not permitted in the Chicagoland area. 
It's all conduit with only short sections of flex permitted.
Maybe Indiana, Wisconsin, around 60 miles away they used AC / MC cable in resi. Or could be a hack running NM cable in Chicagoland cause they don't know how to bend. Even then some will buy all sorts of pull 90s to make it happen.

The polish sometimes hit the area and run blue in yellow for a 120v circuit. I don't get angry. Just look at at and figure there is a lot more mistakes to find and money to make.

Still sell NM in most retail stores, although some cities want as far as banning the sale also.

Let me try now.
What the??? Why they got a black on one screw and a red on the other of this receptacle? Yet the whites on the bottom. Why would they have a red and a black? Fu##en residential guys can't make up their mind what wire to run. And their #12s. It's so fricken hard to push them back in the box. I hate this.


----------



## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

readydave8 said:


> Now of course we tape or sharpie them


They (AHJ) don't allow tape re-identification around here, it must be "permanent".


----------



## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

hardworkingstiff said:


> They (AHJ) don't allow tape re-identification around here, it must be "permanent".


everywhere Ive worked in NC has allowed tape

it all depends on my mood and what I have on hand whether I use tape or sharpie


----------



## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

drspec said:


> everywhere Ive worked in NC has allowed tape


I guess you don't work in New Hanover county. (Wilmington)

BTW, I think tape is perfectly acceptable re-identification method, even though the code says "permanent".


----------



## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

I learned to wire a switch leg (2 wires to the switch, down on the white, up on the black) in *commercial* 
How do you(the OP)not know this?

Are you guys (USA) allowed to wire switch legs still?
Is there not a code in the NEC that requires a neutral at every switch box?


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

active1 said:


> Let me try now.
> What the??? Why they got a black on one screw and a red on the other of this receptacle? Yet the whites on the bottom. Why would they have a red and a black? Fu##en residential guys can't make up their mind what wire to run. And their #12s. It's so fricken hard to push them back in the box. I hate this.


*
Now look at them resi's thats the way you do it
You call the sparkys and you beg them please
That aint workin thats the way you do it
Money for nothin workin' resi scene sleeze
Now that aint workin thats the way you do it
Lemme tell us guys ain't dumb
We'll light your house up with just one finger
And quote the code 'til your ears go numb

We gotta reset gfi's often
Settin' breakers a bre-e-e-e eze
We gotta battery for smoke detectors
We gotta fix for old FPEeees

Ya shoulda learned to set a dimmer
Ya shoulda learned why breakers hum
Look at that mama, she got a selfie by her panel
Man we could have some fun
And whos up there, whats that? harmonic noises?
Can i call a sparky for an EMF disease?
That aint workin thats the way you do it
Get your money for nothin 'cause resi's a breeze

We gotta resell afci's often
Settin' time clocks a bre-e-e-e eze
We gotta set those motion detectors
We gotta overload that we can teeeeaseee

See the AHJ, all our stories madeup
Yeah buddy that 'effs with his head
See the net pimps gaining the takeup
They resi gig made 'em millionaires


We gotta hot water reset button 
Booted meters a bre-e-e-e eze
We gotta grand set of bullsh&t deflectors
We gotta some special resi call fe-e-e-e-s*
:laughing::jester::laughing:
~C(w/apologies to Dire Straits)C~


----------



## telsa (May 22, 2015)

eddy current said:


> I learned to wire a switch leg (2 wires to the switch, down on the white, up on the black) in *commercial*
> How do you(the OP)not know this?
> 
> Are you guys (USA) allowed to wire switch legs still?
> *Is there not a code in the NEC that requires a neutral at every switch box?*


That's pretty recent... and does not impact _piped_ systems.


----------



## PlugsAndLights (Jan 19, 2016)

eddy current said:


> I learned to wire a switch leg (2 wires to the switch, down on the white, up on the black) in *commercial*
> How do you(the OP)not know this?
> 
> Are you guys (USA) allowed to wire switch legs still?
> Is there not a code in the NEC that requires a neutral at every switch box?


I'm just guessing here but when I read the op my first impression 
was that this guy wasn't the sort of commercial electrician who worked
for an EC and gained experience at many new and existing sites. 
Sounds more like a guy who spent his career as an on site maintenance
electrician. 
Again, just guessing. 
P&L


----------



## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

telsa said:


> That's pretty recent... and does not impact _piped_ systems.


Yes but I'm referring to using MC or BX. Can you still do it with a 2 wire? Maybe if all you did was conduit you wouldn't know this but again I first learned it in commercial using BX


----------



## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

PlugsAndLights said:


> I'm just guessing here but when I read the op my first impression
> was that this guy wasn't the sort of commercial electrician who worked
> for an EC and gained experience at many new and existing sites.
> Sounds more like a guy who spent his career as an on site maintenance
> ...


I agree. I imagined a guy who only ran conduit on big jobs. Never troubleshooting circuits that don't work.


----------



## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

eddy current said:


> Yes but I'm referring to using MC or BX. Can you still do it with a 2 wire? Maybe if all you did was conduit you wouldn't know this but again I first learned it in commercial using BX


Yes, if the back side of the wall is open, or if the wall can be fished from the same floor, you can still use a two-wire switch leg.


----------



## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

telsa said:


> That's pretty recent... and does not impact _piped_ systems.


But a white wire isn't allowed to be a hot in a piped system ever anyway.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

RePhase277 said:


> But a white wire isn't allowed to be a hot in a piped system ever anyway.


Racist.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Isn't it funny how commercial/industrial guys laugh at resi until they actually try it? You can't do renovations without the ability to think. Every day is a different challenge.


----------



## cuba_pete (Dec 8, 2011)

drewsserviceco said:


> KaBoom!! Electric Ltd.
> Est. 1980
> "Screw the next guy"


We have one in my world, too:

_"Good enough for government work"_

Perhaps you've heard this?


----------



## cuba_pete (Dec 8, 2011)

99cents said:


> We can still do that in Canuckistan  .


That's racist...:whistling2:


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

When gfi's became mandatory to use in all kitchen outlets, ten years later I started seeing notations showing up in the blueprint drawings telling me that they needed to be gfi outlets. Ten or twelve years after arc faulty breakers became a requirement then the architects began splashing my blueprints with reminders that he wants all the bedroom outlet receptacles to be afci protected. 
Then the demand that I link my smoke detectors started showing up on the prints. I have been doing that for probably 25 years. 


I can't wait for 5 more years to go by so every architect can teach me the new rules about installing a neutral wire into every switch box, regardless of any exceptions. Architects are so smart.


----------



## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

macmikeman said:


> Architects are so smart.


They don't put bags on and I've never seen an architect under a house and they make a lot more than we do so there is a strong argument that they are very smart.


----------



## henderson14 (Oct 23, 2010)

eddy current said:


> I agree. I imagined a guy who only ran conduit on big jobs. Never troubleshooting circuits that don't work.


This. I worked for large EC's in Chicago. Mostly running conduit because everything is in conduit in Chicago. I never did any troubleshooting, which I wanted to do to be a good electrician. 

Despite the tone of my post, I have a lot of respect for resi guys. You can learn a lot about wiring on resi jobs. Some of the fastest workers I've worked with were resi guys also.


----------



## drewsserviceco (Aug 1, 2014)

cuba_pete said:


> We have one in my world, too:
> 
> _"Good enough for government work"_
> 
> Perhaps you've heard this?



Sure have. Second cousin of "Can't see it from my house" 😉


----------



## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

henderson14 said:


> This. I worked for large EC's in Chicago. Mostly running conduit because everything is in conduit in Chicago. I never did any troubleshooting, which I wanted to do to be a good electrician.
> 
> Despite the tone of my post, I have a lot of respect for resi guys. You can learn a lot about wiring on resi jobs. Some of the fastest workers I've worked with were resi guys also.


Thanks for clarifying, glad you didn't get mad and leave!


----------



## B-Nabs (Jun 4, 2014)

My dad has a background in stagecraft, and he often says "good enough for TV", so I've adopted that one. 

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Is the OP still around? we were hard on him but the truth sucks sometimes.


----------



## henderson14 (Oct 23, 2010)

sbrn33 said:


> Is the OP still around? we were hard on him but the truth sucks sometimes.


Can your browse threads? I posted something like an hour ago. I was actually hard on you resi's. I had to placate you guys so your feelings weren't so hurt and to keep the peace.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Sabrina, say the word and I'll turn this guy off.


----------



## henderson14 (Oct 23, 2010)

HackWork said:


> Sabrina, say the word and I'll turn this guy off.


Uh oh. I can imagine you chicken pecking at your keyboard for an attempted witty response.


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

HackWork said:


> Sabrina, say the word and I'll turn this guy off.


He is fine. His condescending attitude is not. The guy thinks he is a king when he is just a little puppy in the whole scheme of things. Anyone can run pipe or read drawings. real electricians don't even need them.


----------



## henderson14 (Oct 23, 2010)

sbrn33 said:


> He is fine. His condescending attitude is not. The guy thinks he is a king when he is just a little puppy in the whole scheme of things. Anyone can run pipe or read drawings. real electricians don't even need them.


I found your response condensending. Don't dish it if you can't take it kid. I tried to close out this thread with a compliment.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

henderson14 said:


> Uh oh. I can imagine you chicken pecking at your keyboard for an attempted witty response.


I can't think of anything.



All I can think of is Dave's train. *CHOO CHOO!!!*


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

henderson14 said:


> I found your response condensending. Don't dish it if you can't take it kid. I tried to close out this thread with a compliment.


You are doing fine. I am all for you. Please let me know when you find a white wire that could be a hot. I will guide you thru it because that is just the type of guy I am. 
Next time I need to bend an offset just right I will ask you for help. Sound good?


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

sbrn33 said:


> you are doing fine. I am all for you. Please let me know when you find a white wire that could be a hot. I will guide you thru it because that is just the type of guy i am.
> Next time i need to kink an offset just right i will ask you for help. Sound good?


fify


----------



## henderson14 (Oct 23, 2010)

sbrn33 said:


> You are doing fine. I am all for you. Please let me know when you find a white wire that could be a hot. I will guide you thru it because that is just the type of guy I am.
> Next time I need to bend an offset just right I will ask you for help. Sound good?


Bending pipe is a skill. It can't be taught through a message board.


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

henderson14 said:


> Bending pipe is a skill. It can't be taught through a message board.


I really appreciate the help you can give me. As a lowly resi electrician(if you can call it that) I really have a hard time bending conduit that really looks nice. Your input is going to be invaluable.


----------



## drewsserviceco (Aug 1, 2014)

henderson14 said:


> Bending pipe is a skill. It can't be taught through a message board.



That's why they print books on the subject, because it can't be taught through the medium of text and written word.


----------



## telsa (May 22, 2015)

drewsserviceco said:


> That's why they print books on the subject, because it can't be taught through the medium of text and written word.


It needs to be field taught.

Which is how Benfield, personally, introduced one-shot benders and EMT.

It does NOT lend itself to book learning AT ALL.


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

henderson14 said:


> Can your browse threads? I posted something like an hour ago. I was actually hard on you resi's. I had to placate you guys so your feelings weren't so hurt and to keep the peace.


There's a reason the call it _Resi hell_ & we're fairly thick skinned because of it Hendy
:whistling2:
~CS~


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Bending pipe isn't an art, its just a task you learn by doing it repetitively. This trade is so much bigger than pipe bending. If you judge yourself on your ability to bend pipe, you're a professional pipe bender, not an electrician.


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

I will show you how well I can bend pipe. Just got my new bender this morning. thinking about using it.


----------



## telsa (May 22, 2015)

99cents said:


> Bending pipe isn't an art, its just a task you learn by doing it repetitively. This trade is so much bigger than pipe bending. If you judge yourself on your ability to bend pipe, you're a professional pipe bender, not an electrician.


Okay, you can't bend EMT to save your soul.

I get that. :thumbsup:


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

sbrn33 said:


> I will show you how well I can bend pipe. Just got my new bender this morning. thinking about using it.


Where are your white pants?!?!


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

HackWork said:


> Where are your white pants?!?!


You know I wear redwings and white pants. That is one of my guys.


----------



## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

99cents said:


> Bending pipe isn't an art, its just a task you learn by doing it repetitively. This trade is so much bigger than pipe bending. If you judge yourself on your ability to bend pipe, you're a professional pipe bender, not an electrician.


Many "electricians" are pipe and wire electricians & there is a place for them. But you wouldn't have them troubleshoot or wire anything more than the usual stuff. Depending on where you work & the niche will determine what constitutes an "electrician" and the requirements.


----------



## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

sbrn33 said:


> I will show you how well I can bend pipe. Just got my new bender this morning. thinking about using it.


Wow! a Romex bender. :jester:


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Bird dog said:


> Many "electricians" are pipe and wire electricians & there is a place for them. But you wouldn't have them troubleshoot or wire anything more than the usual stuff. Depending on where you work & the niche will determine what constitutes an "electrician" and the requirements.


That is kinda what we are talking about. Many a time a "commercial" electrician comes on here and talks down to us. Then a day later asks us how to wire a 3 way switch as he has no idea without a detail.


----------



## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

sbrn33 said:


> That is kinda what we are talking about. Many a time a "commercial" electrician comes on here and talks down to us. Then a day later asks us how to wire a 3 way switch as he has no idea with a detail.


True, but it's like any poster here or anyone who steps onto your job. Don't bring an attitude. :no:


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Bird dog said:


> Many "electricians" are pipe and wire electricians & there is a place for them. But you wouldn't have them troubleshoot or wire anything more than the usual stuff. Depending on where you work & the niche will determine what constitutes an "electrician" and the requirements.


If you're in a market area where you can make a living as a pipe and wire guy, I guess that's okay. The dollars and cents of cable over pipe, however, are making pipe skills less valuable than they were at one time. These days, the ability to hang tray can be a better "art" than bending pipe.


----------



## drewsserviceco (Aug 1, 2014)

telsa said:


> It needs to be field taught.
> 
> Which is how Benfield, personally, introduced one-shot benders and EMT.
> 
> It does NOT lend itself to book learning AT ALL.



So there is zero to be gained by reading Benfield's book or discussing tips and tricks on this forum?

That's what your implying.


----------



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Are there many romex/residential only guys here? I'd starve doing only that. I guess you big city types can be a one trick pony. Out here in the hinterlands you better be able to do what ever comes along. In one day I can be working on a municipal waste water system, running nm for a bath remodel, piping a gas station, and troubleshooting a rock crusher.


----------



## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

henderson14 said:


> Bending pipe is a skill. It can't be taught through a message board.


Yes it can. We discuss it all the time. There are great tips on here.

Sent from my SM-G360T using Tapatalk


----------



## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

TGGT said:


> Yes it can. We discuss it all the time. There are great tips on here.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G360T using Tapatalk


It seems for some on this forum, we are their mentors &/or braintrust. So, it is better than being left to your own devices.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

backstay said:


> Are there many romex/residential only guys here? I'd starve doing only that. I guess you big city types can be a one trick pony. Out here in the hinterlands you better be able to do what ever comes along. In one day I can be working on a municipal waste water system, running nm for a bath remodel, piping a gas station, and troubleshooting a rock crusher.


So that's all there is in your mind? Desolate nothingness or big cities?

The phrase one trick pony is generally used as an insult. Many of us have done all facets of the trade, but after decades of experience choose to specialize in one part of it that they enjoy and find profitable.


----------



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

HackWork said:


> So that's all there is in your mind? Desolate nothingness or big cities?
> 
> The phrase one trick pony is generally used as an insult. Many of us have done all facets of the trade, but after decades of experience choose to specialize in one part of it that they enjoy and find profitable.


So after decades of experience in all facets of the trade, a one trick pony you would not be. Yes, it is used as an insult. And hinterlands is the area around a port or city. I wouldn't call rural America desolate nothingness. I too have worked a full spectrum of the electrical trade. That's why it rubs me the wrong way when someone comes on here and dishes on a part of it he has little to no experience with.


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Mr. Pipe man brags about his ability to run conduit. I would be able to whip his ass in the running two wire wood molding down along a hallway inside a house for an extra hallway light on an open truss ceiling, along with adding a three way at each end...


----------



## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

backstay said:


> Are there many romex/residential only guys here? I'd starve doing only that. I guess you big city types can be a one trick pony. Out here in the hinterlands you better be able to do what ever comes along. In one day I can be working on a municipal waste water system, running nm for a bath remodel, piping a gas station, and troubleshooting a rock crusher.


In my travels, I have met many guys who only do houses, or only do commercial build outs, or only do industrial. And it has always puzzled me. My ADHD won't allow me to pigeon-hole myself. If all I did was rope houses all day or clip pipe to a bar joist, I'd drive my truck into a lake. Yesterday I wired a kitchen remodel, today it's replacing ceiling fans at a lake house, tomorrow I'm installing a 380 V transformer for some kind of Chinese machine. I'm even going to pipe an air line to the machine because they asked nicely. Versatility keeps me thinking and working.


----------



## telsa (May 22, 2015)

drewsserviceco said:


> So there is zero to be gained by reading Benfield's book or discussing tips and tricks on this forum?
> 
> That's what your implying.


No.

That's _your_ leap.

Even Benfield's excellent book works best for a guy that has learned the basics, like a stub 90, first.


----------



## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

hardworkingstiff said:


> I guess you don't work in New Hanover county. (Wilmington)
> 
> BTW, I think tape is perfectly acceptable re-identification method, even though the code says "permanent".


Where I'm at , the stoners paint everything with white primer.


----------



## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

eddy current said:


> I learned to wire a switch leg (2 wires to the switch, down on the white, up on the black) in *commercial*
> How do you(the OP)not know this?
> 
> Are you guys (USA) allowed to wire switch legs still?
> Is there not a code in the NEC that requires a neutral at every switch box?


OP doesn't know this cause he's a builder running around with
a magnetic volt tester ...pulling his hair out and super
pissed at the electrician that didn't put up with his nonsense.:thumbup:


----------



## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

cuba_pete said:


> We have one in my world, too:
> 
> _"Good enough for government work"_
> 
> Perhaps you've heard this?


Iv'e heard said as .."close" enough for government work...and
also thers...F**K it! Can't see it from my house!":thumbup:


----------



## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

Sorry..I'm way way behind on this thread...I'm gonna shut up now..

Oh may I say something...I would love to be in some of shoes you
guys are in ...specifically the posts that say they do a wider variety
of work.

Also ..if I may ..I take it back ..I now believe the OP is in fact an electrician
and not a builder..my bad.


----------



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

lighterup said:


> Sorry..I'm way way nbehind on this thread...I'm gonna shut up now..
> 
> Oh may I say something...I would love to be in some of shoes you
> guys are in ...specifically the posts that say they do a wider variety
> ...


Never say your sorry, I miss spoke, or my words were taken out of context.


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

I haven't pipe in ten years. I whoop this boys ass.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

The first thing to learn about pipe bending is how to make a box offset, trade term _boxset_.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> The first thing to learn about pipe bending is how to make a box offset, trade term _boxset_.


Between box offsets and factory bends, do you even own a bender?


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> Between box offsets and factory bends, do you even own a bender?


Yup. And I am a good pipe bender as well.


----------



## drewsserviceco (Aug 1, 2014)

telsa said:


> No.
> 
> That's _your_ leap.
> 
> Even Benfield's excellent book works best for a guy that has learned the basics, like a stub 90, first.



I don't think it's such a leap. 


"It needs to be field taught.
Which is how Benfield, personally, introduced one-shot benders and EMT.
It does NOT lend itself to book learning AT ALL."


Enlighten me to what else you could have possibly meant there.


----------



## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

You all think your good, but I can run miles and miles of rob roy all day long!

Once, in a mobile home I was working on, paid in Meth of course, I installed at least 1000' of the stuff. Picked it up with one hand and threaded it on with the other, no pipe wrenches needed, no apprentices, nothin... Just me and me alone!

I didn't even need a Benfield book, I just googled it and youtube it!


----------



## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Switched said:


> You all think your good, but I can run miles and miles of rob roy all day long!
> 
> Once, in a mobile home I was working on, paid in Meth of course, I installed at least 1000' of the stuff. Picked it up with one hand and threaded it on with the other, no pipe wrenches needed, no apprentices, nothin... Just me and me alone!
> 
> I didn't even need a Benfield book, I just googled it and youtube it!


That's the Meth advantage for you.


----------



## telsa (May 22, 2015)

drewsserviceco said:


> I don't think it's such a leap.
> 
> 
> "It needs to be field taught.
> ...


I'm an EC, not a miracle worker.


----------



## drewsserviceco (Aug 1, 2014)

telsa said:


> I'm an EC, not a miracle worker.



And that's a cop out. Just to be clear, you made an unlikely claim, I engage you for a discussion to elaborate and you're walking away.


----------



## telsa (May 22, 2015)

drewsserviceco said:


> And that's a cop out. Just to be clear, you made an unlikely claim, I engage you for a discussion to elaborate and you're walking away.


In legal-speak, you're being argumentative.

Just stop.


----------



## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

backstay said:


> Never say your sorry, I miss spoke, or my words were taken out of context.


Ohhh sorry


----------



## drewsserviceco (Aug 1, 2014)

telsa said:


> In legal-speak, you're being argumentative.
> 
> Just stop.



Good thing your a self claimed EC and not a lawyer. 

You want to avoid this kind of interaction in the future, do yourself a favor and don't quote people and (at minimum) insinuate they are wrong. 

I put at minimum in parenthesis because you often tell people in a very pompous manner they are plain wrong. (And sometimes they are) but don't get mad when they come back asking you to substantiate your claims.


----------



## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

:whistling2:C-C-Can't we all just...get along?


----------



## mitch65 (Mar 26, 2015)

Did you mean *Presidential* wiring???


----------



## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Hi, My name is Michael and I can't bend pipe.


----------



## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

Majewski said:


> Hi, My name is Michael and I can't bend pipe.


Don't worry. Hax can show you all the fittings a homeowner would need to work with EMT.


----------



## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

RePhase277 said:


> Don't worry. Hax can show you all the fittings a homeowner would need to work with EMT.


I keep fmc on hand. lololol


----------



## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

i dont do a lot of pipe but i have a 'lil kicker' for offsets and i quit using it because my own are better! could be some problem with the mold of the machine?


----------



## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Maybe, could have taken a fall or something be mis aligned.


----------



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

papaotis said:


> i dont do a lot of pipe but i have a 'lil kicker' for offsets and i quit using it because my own are better! could be some problem with the mold of the machine?


Little self inflated, aren't you?


----------



## catsparky1 (Sep 24, 2013)

Look they both have the good and bad . I think comm is a little more mechanical . I think resi is a lot easier . Resi don't do contactor cans . comm don't deal with homeowners . 

If you make money at it all is good . 

Those of us that can do it all do it all and know what to do to unfukc it when needed .

The biggest house I ever did 22,000 square .

The biggest building I ever did 5 million square .

Put a resi guy in a steel or lumber mill and watch the fun .
Put comm guy guy in a kitchen remodel and watch the fun .

I smile and giggle at this .


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

PlugsAndLights said:


> Might be different down there, but the CEC allows white wires to be
> used in the ways I mentioned without marking. We learn it that way
> and it doesn't seem to cause any confusion.
> P&L


I was taught early on to mark switch legs and that type thing. Never put much thought in it.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

MechanicalDVR said:


> I was taught early on to mark switch legs and that type thing. Never put much thought in it.


Hey, Mech, welcome back. Nothing happened around here while you were gone so there's no need to review old posts  .


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

99cents said:


> Hey, Mech, welcome back. Nothing happened around here while you were gone so there's no need to review old posts  .



Thanks bro! 


LMAO! 

You trying to convince me or yourself with that line?


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

sbrn33 said:


> You know I wear redwings and white pants. That is one of my guys.



****ing painter :laughing:


----------



## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Thanks bro!
> 
> 
> LMAO!
> ...


It's true Mech. There was a noticeable drop off in interesting 
:notworthy:conversation...I almost introduced flat earth theory 
to get something going.


----------



## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

papaotis said:


> i dont do a lot of pipe but i have a 'lil kicker' for offsets and i quit using it because my own are better! could be some problem with the mold of the machine?


May be obvious but I have had to tell a few experienced electricians, sorry if you already know it:

Only works correctly in one direction, pipe must be oriented so the long end comes up not down


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Ok, for some real entertainment, does anybody really buy into that flat world thing and why? Yes, I'm truly bored.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

nrp3 said:


> Ok, for some real entertainment, does anybody really buy into that flat world thing and why? Yes, I'm truly bored.


Yes.

And because it is.

Why would it be round? That is so silly.


----------



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

nrp3 said:


> Ok, for some real entertainment, does anybody really buy into that flat world thing and why? Yes, I'm truly bored.


Well, if the earth is a round ball floating in space, how does the air stay here? Shouldn't it just spill out into this supposed vacuum. How come the water doesn't just run to the bottom? Just saying.


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Still not convinced, need something with some conspiracy too it.


----------



## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

There's a lot of ins and a lot of outs man.


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Nevermind, I'm going to watch Ancient Aliens episodes for the rest of the evening.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

nrp3 said:


> nevermind, i'm going to watch ancient aliens episodes for the rest of the evening.


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

That dudes hair is iconic. Defines the whole show.


----------



## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

nrp3 said:


> Still not convinced, need something with some conspiracy too it.


how about "flat earth theory"...they say theres an enclosed globe
over us....


----------



## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

HackWork said:


> So that's all there is in your mind? Desolate nothingness or big cities?
> 
> The phrase one trick pony is generally used as an insult. Many of us have done all facets of the trade, but after decades of experience choose to specialize in one part of it that they enjoy and find profitable.


You poor thing. Maybe you should get a job at the meat processing plant. I'd suggest hanging birds on the line.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk


----------



## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

HackWork said:


> The first thing to learn about pipe bending is how to make a box offset, trade term _boxset_.


Work smarter, not harder. Get a kicker.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk


----------



## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

Switched said:


> You all think your good, but I can run miles and miles of rob roy all day long!
> 
> Once, in a mobile home I was working on, paid in Meth of course, I installed at least 1000' of the stuff. Picked it up with one hand and threaded it on with the other, no pipe wrenches needed, no apprentices, nothin... Just me and me alone!
> 
> I didn't even need a Benfield book, I just googled it and youtube it!


So, are you still poorer than a tooth fairy in a meth lab?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Or was that shrooms?


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

wendon said:


> You poor thing. Maybe you should get a job at the meat processing plant. I'd suggest hanging birds on the line.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk


What?


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

wendon said:


> Work smarter, not harder. Get a kicker.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk


Carrying in a 40lb kicker to make a few boxsets is for stupid people like you.


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I'm lazy enough to buy one if the price is right on Ebay.


----------



## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

HackWork said:


> Carrying in a 40lb kicker to make a few boxsets is for stupid people like you.


Get a different kicker, lift weights, or, work smarter, not harder, and make your apprentice carry it. 

Sent from my Samsung with a cracked screen protector


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

wendon said:


> Get a different kicker, lift weights, or, work smarter, not harder, and make your apprentice carry it.
> 
> Sent from my Samsung with a cracked screen protector


Shhhhhhhhhhhh.


----------



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

HackWork said:


> Carrying in a 40lb kicker to make a few boxsets is for stupid people like you.


40 pound? The 3/4 kicker weighs in at a whooping 8.4 pounds.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

nrp3 said:


> I'm lazy enough to buy one if the price is right on Ebay.


It will never be cheaper and easier than buying offset connectors.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

backstay said:


> 40 pound? The 3/4 kicker weighs in at a whooping 8.4 pounds.


Lies!


----------



## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

backstay said:


> 40 pound? The 3/4 kicker weighs in at a whooping 8.4 pounds.


Maybe it's the ball and chain he has attached to it as theft prevention. 

Sent from my Samsung with a cracked screen protector


----------



## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

HackWork said:


> Lies!












Sent from my Samsung with a cracked screen protector


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I don't know who Little Kicker is. Sounds like an eBay brand.


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Greenlee


----------



## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

HackWork said:


> I don't know what Greenlee is. Sounds like an eBay brand.


Probably not sold at your local Harbor Freight!

Sent from my Samsung with a cracked screen protector


----------



## splatz (May 23, 2015)

It's not the kicker that weighs, it's the block of concrete you bolt it to. I have one in the back of the truck bolted to a section of the sidewalk from in front of a pizza place the first time I used it. Takes up a lot of space but it makes a perfect offset really fast!


----------



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

splatz said:


> It's not the kicker that weighs, it's the block of concrete you bolt it to. I have one in the back of the truck bolted to a section of the sidewalk from in front of a pizza place the first time I used it. Takes up a lot of space but it makes a perfect offset really fast!


I use mine just the way they came from Greenlee, no block.


----------



## telsa (May 22, 2015)

splatz said:


> It's not the kicker that weighs, it's the block of concrete you bolt it to. I have one in the back of the truck bolted to a section of the sidewalk from in front of a pizza place the first time I used it. Takes up a lot of space but it makes a perfect offset really fast!


While the tool is designed to be anchored, I never did.

I whip mine out for noobs.

Rank apprentices can crank out surface mounted runs with a Li'l Kicker.


----------



## splatz (May 23, 2015)

backstay said:


> I use mine just the way they came from Greenlee, no block.





telsa said:


> While the tool is designed to be anchored, I never did.


That's not how the instructions say to use it, you're violating the UL listing of your offset bends  

Get yourself a section of sidewalk. Mine has a phone booth bolted to it as well which is also handy.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Box offsets are cheesy.


----------



## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

I've heard that when you get really old ... Things start feeling MUCH heavier :jester:


----------



## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Is the offset adjustable with the lil kicker? I don't see the advantage if it isn't. Box offset sizes are different for different boxes no?
Just learn to use a bender is my opinion. Can make any size with one tool


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

eddy current said:


> Is the offset adjustable with the lil kicker? I don't see the advantage if it isn't. Box offset sizes are different for different boxes no?
> Just learn to use a bender is my opinion. Can make any size with one tool


No, they aren't adjustable.

Most boxsets are the same size. 

Benders and kickers are for people who hate profit.


----------



## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

wendon said:


> Get a different kicker, lift weights, or, work smarter, not harder, and make your apprentice carry it.
> 
> Sent from my Samsung with a cracked screen protector


Hey! I got one of those samsung cracked screeny thingies too!:icon_wink:


----------



## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

HD and Lowes sell those offsets already made and they only weigh like 
an ounce or 2...no apprentice needed


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

On a more serious note, in my experience, a kicker has only been worthwhile when doing a lot of pipe work and multiple people are working in that area. Setup a pipe vice, portaband, and kicker for a few different people to use.

But for the most part, especially when you're on your own, it's quicker to just use a bender for the boxsets. Any electrician who is decent at bending pipe can make perfectly acceptable boxsets.

For service work like I do now, in which I may need 1 piece of pipe to use as a sleeve, and I put the bends on the pipe outside so that I don't even have to carry the bender in, the offset connectors work great. The reason why I don't put the boxset on the pipe with the bender outside is because I often don't know the exact length I need until I get inside, so I cut it then and put the offset connector on.

The other day I had to pipe about 40' around a garage. I had the bender with me, but I bought offset connectors anyway. They look good and they are just so easy. Why spend the time trying to line up a boxset with multiple other bends on a 10' piece of pipe when the offset connector works so well?


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Skipped the offsets and did mini's on Friday.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> On a more serious note, in my experience, a kicker has only been worthwhile when doing a lot of pipe work and multiple people are working in that area. Setup a pipe vice, portaband, and kicker for a few different people to use.
> 
> But for the most part, especially when you're on your own, it's quicker to just use a bender for the boxsets. Any electrician who is decent at bending pipe can make perfectly acceptable boxsets.
> 
> ...



Because they look cheesy.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> Because they look cheesy.


That's very ignorant and stupid. Not a single homeowner would know the difference between an offset connector and a box offset.

You are basing your opinion of what looks better off of etiquette, not actual attractiveness.


----------



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

HackWork said:


> That's very ignorant and stupid. Not a single homeowner would know the difference between an offset connector and a box offset.


I'd know.


----------



## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

backstay said:


> I'd know.


Because you know .,, I will spill the secrect for ya in here .,,

You did have trained bird to find the bends in the sky. 

that how ya find it quick. :laughing:


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> That's very ignorant and stupid. Not a single homeowner would know the difference between an offset connector and a box offset.
> 
> You are basing your opinion of what looks better off of etiquette, not actual attractiveness.


And the HO wouldn't notice if you went into the box with straight pipe either.


----------



## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

Just snake it with AC :thumbsup:


----------



## drewsserviceco (Aug 1, 2014)

Zip cord and my Arrow brand staple gun. You can get brown, white or gold zip cord to blend right in to what you're stapling it to.


----------



## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

99cents said:


> Because they look cheesy.


isnt that ironic coming from a guy that drives a minivan?


----------



## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

wendon said:


> So, are you still poorer than a tooth fairy in a meth lab?
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk


I am blessed with British teeth.... They look horrible and rotten yet somehow never fall out..... The before picture for cosmetic dentists! :laughing::laughing:


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

drspec said:


> isnt that ironic coming from a guy that drives a minivan?


Dunno what that's supposed to mean.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> And the HO wouldn't notice if you went into the box with straight pipe either.


Exactly, I do that when I can. I only offset to the wall so I can strap it.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> Dunno what that's supposed to mean.


You know exactly what it means lol.


----------



## wmtownson (Apr 24, 2017)

To the OP I'm 27 yrs electrian and I've wired 3 houses my hat is off to the resi guys. Being licenced doesn't mean you can efficiently and economically wire a home. Instead of flaming the resi trade ask a question and they will happily share.


----------



## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

lighterup said:


> HD and Lowes sell those offsets already made and they only weigh like
> an ounce or 2...no apprentice needed


That's right, and there's a short brown guy out front you can hire to use them too! Way cheaper than an apprentice, with 1/10 the pride in his workmanship!


----------



## drewsserviceco (Aug 1, 2014)

Who needs pride when your sole purpose in life is to make as much money as possible to support your family that's still (trapped) in your home country?


----------



## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

HackWork said:


> On a more serious note, in my experience, a kicker has only been worthwhile when doing a lot of pipe work and multiple people are working in that area. Setup a pipe vice, portaband, and kicker for a few different people to use.
> 
> But for the most part, especially when you're on your own, it's quicker to just use a bender for the boxsets. Any electrician who is decent at bending pipe can make perfectly acceptable boxsets.
> 
> ...


Offset connectors are a copout and, if you're not using a kicker, you're wasting time.

Sent from my Samsung with a cracked screen protector


----------



## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

eddy current said:


> Is the offset adjustable with the lil kicker? I don't see the advantage if it isn't. Box offset sizes are different for different boxes no?
> Just learn to use a bender is my opinion. Can make any size with one tool


It's hard to be as consistant bending them by hand. It's also easier up on the lift. Most of the standard 4 squares, handy boxes etc. have the same offset.

Sent from my Samsung with a cracked screen protector


----------



## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

wendon said:


> It's hard to be as consistant bending them by hand. It's also easier up on the lift. Most of the standard 4 squares, handy boxes etc. have the same offset.
> 
> Sent from my Samsung with a cracked screen protector


Maybe I'm a little too picky but a handy box (1110) and a 4inch square box do not have the same offset.


----------



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

eddy current said:


> Maybe I'm a little too picky but a handy box (1110) and a 4inch square box do not have the same offset.


Just measured, 3/4 in to the center of both a handy box and 4sq box on the 1/2 in knockouts.


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Maybe brand dependent? I could see if you bend pipe often you'd probably notice differences. I don't do enough to notice.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

wendon said:


> Offset connectors are a copout and, if you're not using a kicker, you're wasting time.


You're a dummy and, you're gay.


----------



## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

backstay said:


> Just measured, 3/4 in to the center of both a handy box and 4sq box on the 1/2 in knockouts.


Handy box?? Who uses those things? :blink:


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Speedy Petey said:


> Handy box?? Who uses those things? :blink:


I still find uses for them, but not with pipe.


----------



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Speedy Petey said:


> Handy box?? Who uses those things? :blink:


I use them in log walls all the time. 1,2,3 and 4 gang.


----------



## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Handy box or wiremold are nice for under sink, over range for those out of site outlets!


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Majewski said:


> Handy box or wiremold are nice for under sink, over range for those out of site outlets!


Like this one I put behind a stove:


----------



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

HackWork said:


> Like this one I put behind a stove:
> 
> 
> View attachment 105145


That is butt ugly, but who will see or care. I always put a single gang box/receptacle next to the two gang range receptacle for the future.


----------



## Forge Boyz (Nov 7, 2014)

The crazy thing is, handy boxes cost about the same as a 4sq


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

backstay said:


> That is butt ugly, but who will see or care. I always put a single gang box/receptacle next to the two gang range receptacle for the future.


Here you go judging looks based on etiquette again.

The customer thought that box was so beautiful that he gave me $575. Sounds like everyone (but you) is happy.


----------



## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

HackWork said:


> Like this one I put behind a stove:
> 
> 
> View attachment 105145


Is that a deep handibox ? I was not sure due my eyes teaseing me a little.,,


----------



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

HackWork said:


> Here you go judging looks based on etiquette again.
> 
> The customer thought that box was so beautiful that he gave me $575. Sounds like everyone (but you) is happy.


Is that the fake tile wallboard on the back wall?


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

frenchelectrican said:


> Is that a deep handibox ? I was not sure due my eyes teaseing me a little.,,


I believe so. 

I was trying to give up on handyboxes just to one less thing to carry around, but I needed 2 in the last week. One was a splice I had to make and then throw up in the ceiling thru a 4" recessed light hole. The other one was splicing into an existing cable running thru the garage. It was high up next to the garage door track and the only box I could fit in there and screw to the ceiling was a handybox.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

backstay said:


> Is that the fake tile wallboard on the back wall?


Yup, fake tile floor too, I drilled down with a spade bit. It was actually a pretty nice house, $500K+. But the house was very old and the kitchen hadn't been re-done in a long time. 

That stove originally had a pilot light, so no electricity (that's common here).


----------



## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

HackWork said:


> I believe so.
> 
> I was trying to give up on handyboxes just to one less thing to carry around, but I needed 2 in the last week. One was a splice I had to make and then throw up in the ceiling thru a 4" recessed light hole. The other one was splicing into an existing cable running thru the garage. It was high up next to the garage door track and the only box I could fit in there and screw to the ceiling was a handybox.


Fair engough and I have same issue with dammed handiboxes I dont keep too many on hand over here too. I do keep about 4 of them but they are standard verison but I will get a deep one if I order next batch ( I have to get it from Cebu :whistling2: )


----------



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

HackWork said:


> Yup, fake tile floor too, I drilled down with a spade bit. It was actually a pretty nice house, $500K+. But the house was very old and the kitchen hadn't been re-done in a long time.
> 
> That stove originally had a pilot light, so no electricity (that's common here).


So why didn't you drill up into the wall and flush mount a box?


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

backstay said:


> So why didn't you drill up into the wall and flush mount a box?


That would have been more work. 

If you look in the picture, you could see the gas line coming up thru the floor. My box is behind that pipe. The pipe is stopping th stove from being pushed back any further, so my box won't interfere or ever be seen.

If the gas line was in the wall I probably would have put the electric in the wall too. 

When in Rome...


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

For around here we would have put the outlet in a surface mount T+B 5060 box and run a chunk of wood molding over the romex, but your's is fine the way it is. Here we have to cover all romex under 7' high with wood mould if it is exposed, but it's not a written rule, just a squatter's rights type ruling. The boxes wouldn't fly anywhere else either, but I've put in about a billion of them.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Normally I would use a short piece of EMT and an offset connector under the box to sleeve the romex thru. But since the gas pipe was there I figured nothing would ever get near the romex. I left a little coil of romex in the basement and told the homeowner that we needed to rewire everything and move that gas pipe when he is ready to renovate that kitchen.


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

wendon said:


> Offset connectors are a copout and, if you're not using a kicker, you're wasting time.
> 
> Sent from my Samsung with a cracked screen protector


I know you are trolling but by the time you get your little kicker out I am done and gone. Those are for apprentices.


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

HackWork said:


> Normally I would use a short piece of EMT and an offset connector under the box to sleeve the romex thru. But since the gas pipe was there I figured nothing would ever get near the romex. I left a little coil of romex in the basement and told the homeowner that we needed to rewire everything and move that gas pipe when he is ready to renovate that kitchen.


Yea because nobody is ever going to ram the stove right into that wire. I honestly do not believe you even did that because I know the work you do. 
I will just assume you got that off of our sister site.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

sbrn33 said:


> Yea because nobody is ever going to ram the stove right into that wire. I honestly do not believe you even did that because I know the work you do.
> I will just assume you got that off of our sister site.


Tell me how the gas line protects the cord end.


----------



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

sbrn33 said:


> I know you are trolling but by the time you get your little kicker out I am done and gone. Those are for apprentices.


If I'm setup with my stand, and running EMT for a half day or more, I will pull my kicker out and use it. If I'm doing one offest, then no. I don't think using any tool in the truck is apprentice only. You're just trolling.


----------



## telsa (May 22, 2015)

sbrn33 said:


> I know you are trolling but by the time you get your little kicker out I am done and gone. Those are for apprentices.


They are terrific training aids...

I start my apprentices out with dead straight runs of surface mounted strip lights... 

Or some such.

Measuring, strapping, fastening... 

And then it's on to bending stub nineties. :laughing:


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

sbrn33 said:


> Yea because nobody is ever going to ram the stove right into that wire. I honestly do not believe you even did that because I know the work you do.
> I will just assume you got that off of our sister site.


The stove can't be rammed into it. I explained at least 3 times now that the gas pipe is in front of it. The stove can't be pushed back anywhere near the wire.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> Tell me how the gas line protects the cord end.


If you were an electrician you would know that the cord end on a stove is a right angle plug.


----------



## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

sbrn33 said:


> I know you are trolling but by the time you get your little kicker out I am done and gone. Those are for apprentices.


That might be if you're only adding one box. Even then I don't believe it. How about a run between boxes where you're short about 18"? No way you can put an offset in a piece that short, and do it quicker with a hand bender. As for trolling, I'll have to take your word for it as there's nothing like experience to recognize the signs. 

Sent from my Samsung with a cracked screen protector


----------



## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

i want to know where you can get a 4x4 for the same price as a handy. i' ll buy a bunch!


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

wendon said:


> That might be if you're only adding one box. Even then I don't believe it. How about a run between boxes where you're short about 18"? No way you can put an offset in a piece that short, and do it quicker with a hand bender. As for trolling, I'll have to take your word for it as there's nothing like experience to recognize the signs.
> 
> Sent from my Samsung with a cracked screen protector


There is nothing hard about putting a boxset in an 18" piece of pipe. 

Boxsets are done with the bending shoe up in the air, it takes 4-5 seconds to bend one.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> If you were an electrician you would know that the cord end on a stove is a right angle plug.


And that doesn't protrude? I'm with Sabrina, you didn't even do that.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Options for that goofy receptacle:

Mount it close to the floor so the box protects the cable.
If it has to be at that height, pipe down to the hole in the floor and sleeve the cable. You could use one roof those raised pipe straps (you guys have a name for them).


----------



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

99cents said:


> Options for that goofy receptacle:
> 
> Use a shallow 4 X 4 which gives you breathing room.
> Mount it close to the floor so the box protects the cable.
> If it has to be at that height, pipe down to the hole in the floor and sleeve the cable. You could use one roof those raised pipe straps (you guys have a name for them).


Put it in the wall.:whistling2:


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

I haven't used an offset kicker since I was a first year helper in 1976. Unlike Haxaroo, I usually make the bends with the shoe on the ground, but you get some doglegs doing that (and who gives a ......) so if it is a critical out in the open box offset , I'll flip the shoe up and make my hernia hurt.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

backstay said:


> Put it in the wall.:whistling2:


We aren't allowed to have romex that close to the floor anyway.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> And that doesn't protrude? I'm with Sabrina, you didn't even do that.


It doesn't protrude any further than if the receptacle was in the wall and the pipe wasn;t there. It's susceptible to the same amount of "damage" in either situation, since the pipe is even with the face of the receptacle in the picture. I would expect an electrician to be able to figure this out.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

macmikeman said:


> I haven't used an offset kicker since I was a first year helper in 1976. Unlike Haxaroo, I usually make the bends with the shoe on the ground, but you get some doglegs doing that (and who gives a ......) so if it is a critical out in the open box offset , I'll flip the shoe up and make my hernia hurt.


You are getting old, really old, so you have an excuse. Wendon has no excuse for not being able to put a boxset on an 18" piece of pipe. Just the fact that he said that makes me think he never bent pipe before. He probably drives a minivan to his handyman jobs like the snowback.


----------



## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

Each of these things has its place. Kickers are for guys running miles of pipe with a gillion boxes. Premade offsets are for homeowners that want to add some "plugs" to their shed wall.

The rest of the industry bends a box offset with a hand bender.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

What's a snowback?


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

I guess driving a Sprinter covers up the fact that you're a hack.


----------



## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

HackWork said:


> You are getting old, really old, so you have an excuse. Wendon has no excuse for not being able to put a boxset on an 18" piece of pipe. Just the fact that he said that makes me think he never bent pipe before. He probably drives a minivan to his handyman jobs like the snowback.


Your ignorance is showing. I never said you couldn't do it, I'm just saying there's no way you can do it faster than with a kicker. To say nothing about consistency.

Sent from my Samsung with a cracked screen protector


----------



## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

wendon said:


> Your ignorance is showing. I never said you couldn't do it, I'm just saying there's no way you can do it faster than with a kicker. To say nothing about consistency.
> 
> Sent from my Samsung with a cracked screen protector


Seriously though, I'm not even going to strap an 18" nipple, let alone put an offset at each end.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> I guess driving a Sprinter covers up the fact that you're a hack.


No, but let's be honest here for a second. Driving a real company vehicle and installing the receptacle that I did, in which the customer was very happy about, looks MUCH better than you driving a minivan like a sideworking handyman and installing a receptacle in the wall. So maybe you should keep your mouth shut about my work until you start acting like a professional...

The receptacle in that picture is code compliant, functional, and what the customer wanted. You can call it "hack" based on your silly etiquette, but the homeowner didn't think it was hack. He would, though, question if I drove up in a minivan instead of a professional electrical contractor vehicle.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

wendon said:


> Your ignorance is showing. I never said you couldn't do it, I'm just saying there's no way you can do it faster than with a kicker. To say nothing about consistency.
> 
> Sent from my Samsung with a cracked screen protector


No, you are talking a few seconds difference, if any.

Someone who knows how to bend pipe and has a bender right there can put a boxset into the pipe in seconds.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Mikey keeps pestering me to post my submetering setup, now this is the pinnacle of professional installations.










Look at how well strapped that sealtite is. And the black painted backerboard, beautiful.


$700 for the job, $100 in material, happy customer, I've done 3-4 jobs for him since.


----------



## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

HackWork said:


> No, you are talking a few seconds difference, if any.
> 
> Someone who knows how to bend pipe and has a bender right there can put a boxset into the pipe in 60 seconds.


Yeah, whatever. I'll keep using my kickers.

Sent from my Samsung with a cracked screen protector


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> No, but let's be honest here for a second. Driving a real company vehicle and installing the receptacle that I did, in which the customer was very happy about, looks MUCH better than you driving a minivan like a sideworking handyman and installing a receptacle in the wall. So maybe you should keep your mouth shut about my work until you start acting like a professional...
> 
> The receptacle in that picture is code compliant, functional, and what the customer wanted. You can call it "hack" based on your silly etiquette, but the homeowner didn't think it was hack. He would, though, question if I drove up in a minivan instead of a professional electrical contractor vehicle.


I'm a one man shop and what I drive suits me perfectly. I don't do service calls so I don't need a rolling warehouse of parts and pieces. My days are predictable so I am able to take whatever materials I need for a specific job. The van is highly organized and I rarely go without.

Minivans are extremely popular with the telecom guys and other trades. Customers judge me by my work and my people skills, not my vehicle. My ego is not defined by my van. Besides that, I love me my power sliding doors  .


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

wendon said:


> Yeah, whatever. I'll keep using my kickers.
> 
> Sent from my Samsung with a cracked screen protector


I'm pretty sure you know how to bend pipe.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

wendon said:


> Yeah, whatever. I'll keep using my kickers.
> 
> Sent from my Samsung with a cracked screen protector


Once you learn how to make a boxset, you will see the difference.

I'd like to help you with this, so here goes:

Stand the bender up, hold the shoe with your hand.

-Slide the pipe under the hook, let about 1" stick out (you will figure out exactly how much on your own, just make it the same each time).
-Push down ever so slightly on the pipe making the tiniest bend that you can.
-Twist the pipe in the shoe and move it forward a few inches (again, you will figure out how much by feel on your own).
-Push down ever so slightly on the pipe making the tiniest bend that you can.

Done. Once you do it a few times you will be able to do that in seconds. Less time than it takes to walk over to the kicker.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> I'm a one man shop and what I drive suits me perfectly. I don't do service calls so I don't need a rolling warehouse of parts and pieces. My days are predictable so I am able to take whatever materials I need for a specific job. The van is highly organized and I rarely go without.
> 
> Minivans are extremely popular with the telecom guys and other trades. Customers judge me by my work and my people skills, not my vehicle. My ego is not defined by my van. Besides that, I love me my power sliding doors  .


Stop with excuses. My statement was clear. You look like a hack, you look MUCH worse to any customer than my receptacle does. So you should be keeping your comments to yourself.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> No, you are talking a few seconds difference, if any.
> 
> Someone who knows how to bend pipe and has a bender right there can put a boxset into the pipe in seconds.


But you keep bragging about how offset connectors are highly profitable and make you nothing but money. How many do you install in a month? Four? You're a romex yanker, Hack. The amount of pipe you install besides services is minimal. I don't even know why you're talking about this.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> Stop with excuses. My statement was clear. You look like a hack, you look MUCH worse to any customer than my receptacle does. So you should be keeping your comments to yourself.


Big truck, small d!ck.


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Kickers are OK for lots of bends on a jobsite. One or two for a small resi job is just not worth getting it out when the bender is right there is its tube.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> But you keep bragging about how offset connectors are highly profitable and make you nothing but money. How many do you install in a month? Four?


 No, anything I said of the sort was clearly tongue in cheek. I spelled out how it works quite clearly in this post: http://www.electriciantalk.com/f29/residential-wiring-so-fd-up-206666/index10/#post3935193



> You're a romex yanker, Hack.


 No, I am not. You really have no idea what I do. I am FAR from a "romex yanker" lol 



> The amount of pipe you install besides services is minimal. I don't even know why you're talking about this.


I am engaging in a discussion about pipe because I spent 15 years working with pipe, and when I see someone say something outrageous and simply not true, I an entitled to give my expert opinion.

Now you tell me, why are YOU even talking about this? You have just showed yourself to be a complete hypocrite by questioning why I am talking about it when you've never bent pipe and aren't even a real electrician, yet you won't shut up about it.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> Big truck, small d!ck.


This is what we call a copout. 

Maybe I have a small d1ck. But my receptacle still looks a LOT more professional than you do driving up in your minivan. You know that's true, everyone reading this knows it's true. So why not stop bashing my work?


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> No, anything I said of the sort was clearly tongue in cheek. I spelled out how it works quite clearly in this post: http://www.electriciantalk.com/f29/residential-wiring-so-fd-up-206666/index10/#post3935193
> 
> No, I am not. You really have no idea what I do. I am FAR from a "romex yanker" lol
> 
> ...


I spent a year of my life bending rigid steel in hazardous locations. EMT is easy.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> I spent a year of my life bending rigid steel in hazardous locations. EMT is easy.


"_The amount of pipe you install today is minimal. I don't even know why you're talking about this._"


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> This is what we call a copout.
> 
> Maybe I have a small d1ck. But my receptacle still looks a LOT more professional than you do driving up in your minivan. You know that's true, everyone reading this knows it's true. So why not stop bashing my work?


Because that photo you posted looks like chit. It isn't even code compliant here. An extra five minutes of time would have made a difference regardless of what's parked in the driveway.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> Because that photo you posted looks like chit.


 The photo I posted is a 100% code compliant installation that the customer was very happy with. 

What "looks like chit" is a so-called contractor driving up in a soccer-mom style minivan with no company lettering, no shelving system, and no ladder rack.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> The photo I posted is a 100% code compliant installation that the customer was very happy with.
> 
> What "looks like chit" is a so-called contractor driving up in a soccer-mom style minivan with no company lettering, no shelving system, and no ladder rack.


Have it your way. I'm off to do a kitchen reno now with a minivan all loaded up and ready to go. No pipe today because I don't need it  .


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Haxer, How much longer would that have taken to sleeve that in a piece of EMT.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

```

```



99cents said:


> Have it your way. I'm off to do a kitchen reno now with a minivan all loaded up and ready to go. No pipe today because I don't need it  .


 I am not having it my way, I'm simply responding reasonably and logically to your insults of my work.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

sbrn33 said:


> Haxer, How much longer would that have taken to sleeve that in a piece of EMT.


 I specifically spoke about this earlier in the thread.


----------



## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

You think in person....if we were all forced to work in a team....would we? Who would just walk off first? I'd hide and take pictures of everything and post it on facebook.


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Majewski said:


> You think in person....if we were all forced to work in a team....would we? Who would just walk off first? I'd hide and take pictures of everything and post it on facebook.


I would spend most of my time fixing haxes shortfalls so I could sleep at night. On my breaks I would probably be jump starting 99 POS. 
I might get to have coffee with you. 
Me and CS will be duking it out after work. 480 will film it.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Majewski said:


> You think in person....if we were all forced to work in a team....would we? Who would just walk off first? I'd hide and take pictures of everything and post it on facebook.


 Many of us have worked with or lead large crews for most of our careers and did just fine.

It's only on the Internet where a guy driving a minivan has the audacity to insult someone else's professionalism or an electrician doesn't know how to bend a boxset in five seconds.


----------



## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

sbrn33 said:


> I would spend most of my time fixing haxes shortfalls so I could sleep at night. On my breaks I would probably be jump starting 99 POS.
> I might get to have coffee with you.
> Me and CS will be duking it out after work. 480 will film it.


I'm sad that I didn't even make the lost, but it's OK. While all that went down, I'd have bent the offset, finished the job and collected a check. All that circle jerking would be in full swing by the time I hit the off ramp to my house.


----------



## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

I'm done with hotwheels now...now it's all retro games and little gi joes. So I will play with those and let alllllll you schmucks go at it. But I will buy first round after work!


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Majewski, did you know that McDonalds sells a large coffee for $1? I get it light and sweet, it says 8 creams and 8 sugars on the board. That's a damn good deal for a buck, and the coffee is good too.


----------



## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

HackWork said:


> Majewski, did you know that McDonalds sells a large coffee for $1? I get it light and sweet, it says 8 creams and 8 sugars on the board. That's a damn good deal for a buck, and the coffee is good too.


Dude! I did!!! It's awesome! I do like to keep it black though because the copious amounts I drink, I would get fat and or diabetic from the creams/sugars.


----------



## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

Majewski said:


> Dude! I did!!! It's awesome! I do like to keep it black though because the copious amounts I drink, I would get fat and or diabetic from the creams/sugars.


I wouldn't worry unless you really don't watch the rest of your diet. On the other hand, I drank so much black coffee for so long my stomach can only handle one black cup which I'll do occasionally. True test of coffee IMO is black, smooth, medium roast with no aftertaste. Now "just give me the coffee and no one gets hurt". :laughing:


----------



## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

I've become addicted to the chit after taste.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I keep trying black coffee to see if I'll grow into it, but I just don't like it. I e tried all kinds of coffee and different methods of making it. Keurig, perk, drip, cowboy, even French press.

Light and sweet is awesome, though.


----------



## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Oh and my diet is horrible. I'm probably legally dead now.


----------



## splatz (May 23, 2015)

HackWork said:


> I keep trying black coffee to see if I'll grow into it, but I just don't like it. I e tried all kinds of coffee and different methods of making it. Keurig, perk, drip, cowboy, even French press.
> 
> Light and sweet is awesome, though.


Coffee was put on this earth to be a vehicle for cream and sugar. Drinking black coffee would be like driving a truck full of empty boxes around.


----------



## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Which I also do.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

splatz said:


> Coffee was put on this earth to be a vehicle for cream and sugar. Drinking black coffee would be like driving a truck full of empty boxes around.


I knew I liked you for a reason.

Coffee is supposed to taste like melted coffee ice cream.


----------



## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

Is there something wrong with being brown ?


----------



## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

RePhase277 said:


> That's right, and there's a short brown guy out front you can hire to use them too! Way cheaper than an apprentice, with 1/10 the pride in his workmanship!


RACIST!!!...we got one here!


----------



## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

I just got done playing video games for an hour! Now I get to go do a bid in a house near my own.....then finish up some after hours chit at a restaurant...

Shaking a little from all the coffee, I think I'lll make more.


----------



## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Majewski said:


> I just got done playing video games for an hour! Now I get to go do a bid in a house near my own.....then finish up some after hours chit at a restaurant...
> 
> Shaking a little from all the coffee, I think I'lll make more.


More coffee ?? hummm any side effects yet ?


----------



## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

frenchelectrican said:


> More coffee ?? hummm any side effects yet ?


Yeah probably, being awesome!


----------



## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Majewski said:


> Yeah probably, being awesome!


Humm that fine .,, but just dont let any ibons ( birds ) get in your place and those persky ibons eat your coffee grounds .,,, :laughing:




Note : Ibons mean birds in tagalog


----------



## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

No way jose!


----------



## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Majewski said:


> No way jose!


AKO ( ME ) ?????? :blink::blink:

let me see .,, coffee with a touch of coconut rum may help ya some.


----------



## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

HackWork said:


> Once you learn how to make a boxset, you will see the difference.
> 
> I'd like to help you with this, so here goes:
> 
> ...


Lies, all lies. You forgot to include the step where the handle slips on the wet floor and goes flying. The next thing is the time it takes for you to get control of your anger and try again. My pipe is already installed......

Sent from my Samsung with a cracked screen protector


----------



## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

99cents said:


> I'm pretty sure you know how to bend pipe.


Been there do that. 

Sent from my Samsung with a cracked screen protector


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

:yawn:


----------



## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

Wake up!









Sent from my Samsung with a cracked screen protector


----------



## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

HackWork said:


> :yawn:


Careful, an ibon might fly into that yawn hole.


----------



## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

I hate bonded bushings! That is all.


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

I have a $50 MacDonalds gift card I would sell for $43.50.


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

wendon said:


> Lies, all lies. You forgot to include the step where the handle slips on the wet floor and goes flying. The next thing is the time it takes for you to get control of your anger and try again. My pipe is already installed......
> 
> Sent from my Samsung with a cracked screen protector


Are you an electrician?


----------



## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Nothing matters now, I ordered pizza.


----------



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Majewski said:


> Nothing matters now, I ordered pizza.


From who?


----------



## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Just dominos. Nothing special but I wanted it!


----------



## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

sbrn33 said:


> Are you an electrician?


Electrical conractor. One that actually still gets his hands dirty. Just curious who disliked you enough to give you a gift card to McGaggers?

Sent from my Samsung with a cracked screen protector


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

wendon said:


> Electrical conractor. One that actually still gets his hands dirty. Just curious who disliked you enough to give you a gift card to McGaggers?
> 
> Sent from my Samsung with a cracked screen protector


True, I think I got it in some kind of Xmas gift card exchange. So far all I have bought with it is coffee. 
Are you implying that I don't get my hands dirty anymore? Yesterday the golf cart was dirty and I had to wipe my hand off multiple times.....


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Wendon needs one of these so he can use a bender without it slipping. Then he will be able to make boxsets like a real electrician.

http://www.cesco.com/b2c/product/Id...m_medium=Dynamic_Ads&utm_campaign=desktop_rhc


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> Wendon needs one of these so he can use a bender without it slipping. Then he will be able to make boxsets like a real electrician.
> 
> http://www.cesco.com/b2c/product/Id...m_medium=Dynamic_Ads&utm_campaign=desktop_rhc


That's just so you don't bash your toe when you're wearing sandals. Useless in Canada; mac might like it  .


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

How can you tell what kind of gizmo you used to bend your pipe after its up? I dont care if you wrapped it around your ear, if it looks good and it works, thats all that matters.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> if it looks good and it works, thats all that matters.


Funny, this is the exact opposite of what you were saying yesterday when I explained that the homeowner thought my receptacle behind his stove looked great. It definitely worked better than the zip cord extension cord he had running to it. Everyone was happy but you.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> Funny, this is the exact opposite of what you were saying yesterday when I explained that the homeowner thought my receptacle behind his stove looked great. It definitely worked better than the zip cord extension cord he had running to it. Everyone was happy but you.


It's all good. Give it some time and you'll be doing a fire resto.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> It's all good. Give it some time and you'll be doing a fire resto.


No, that is silly. But I will be doing the kitchen renovation when he gets around to it. I already upgraded his service and hung 3 of his TVs.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> No, that is silly. But I will be doing the kitchen renovation when he gets around to it. I already upgraded his service and hung 3 of his TVs.


If you want to know how to do a kitchen reno, I can tell you how to do it. I don't mind helping you out. I'm that kind of guy  .


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

HackWork said:


> Funny, this is the exact opposite of what you were saying yesterday when I explained that the homeowner thought my receptacle behind his stove looked great. It definitely worked better than the zip cord extension cord he had running to it. Everyone was happy but you.


I wasn't.
I thought it was an embarrassingly ugly install, and when they shove that stove into it as they are screwing and they both die it will be all your fault.


----------



## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Did I just read screwing?


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

sbrn33 said:


> I wasn't.
> I thought it was an embarrassingly ugly install, and when they shove that stove into it as they are screwing and they both die it will be all your fault.



That reminds me of the time...

Never mind.


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Majewski said:


> Did I just read screwing?


You've never had sex on the stove???:001_unsure:


----------



## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

I've had sex everywhere.


----------



## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Being alone counts, right?


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> If you want to know how to do a kitchen reno, I can tell you how to do it. I don't mind helping you out. I'm that kind of guy  .


I know you would, as would I.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

sbrn33 said:


> I wasn't.
> I thought it was an embarrassingly ugly install, and when they shove that stove into it as they are screwing and they both die it will be all your fault.


 The only way the stove could ever come near the Romex is if it snaps off the gas pipe first. 

Keep the trolling up and I'm going to show everyone that private message you sent me last night.


----------



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

HackWork said:


> The only way the stove could ever come near the Romex is if it snaps off the gas pipe first.
> 
> Keep the trolling up and I'm going to show everyone that private message you sent me last night.


You said you would only share that with a few of us!


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

When a man professes his love for me, I think the whole world should know.


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

HackWork said:


> The only way the stove could ever come near the Romex is if it snaps off the gas pipe first.
> 
> Keep the trolling up and I'm going to show everyone that private message you sent me last night.


I was kinda drunk so that did make you look a little better.....


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

nrp3 said:


> Still not convinced, need something with some conspiracy too it.


Well the oligarchy guys got together with the Bilderbergers and without consulting CS they met up out in Cali and smoked a few bones.........I better stop before my vacation turns permanent!!


----------



## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

HackWork said:


> Wendon needs one of these so he can use a bender without it slipping. Then he will be able to make boxsets like a real electrician.
> 
> http://www.cesco.com/b2c/product/Id...m_medium=Dynamic_Ads&utm_campaign=desktop_rhc


Yuck. Would you care if I'd use a picture of that hack work you're so proud of? I could use it to scare prospective apprentices.

Sent from my Samsung with a cracked screen protector


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

wendon said:


> Yuck. Would you care if I'd use a picture of that hack work you're so proud of? I could use it to scare prospective apprentices.
> 
> Sent from my Samsung with a cracked screen protector


You can use it as an example of a code compliant installation that made a lot of profit and left a happy customer.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

hackwork said:


> You can use it as an example of a splash 'n' dash where i stole money from a customer who was too dumb to know any better.


fify


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> fify


Nope, that's another one of your blatant lies.

I will not bring myself done to your level.


----------



## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

I think you're all gay


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

ponyboy said:


> I think you're all gay
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I think they should get a room


Sent from my flip phone at your mom's house


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

ponyboy said:


> I think you're all gay
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I missed you so much :vs_smirk:


----------



## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

wendon said:


> Give me a source where I can get 6-3 NM with solid conductors.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk


 
That was one of my code questions when I wrote my CofQ back in the day...

How many #6 solid conductors can be put in a 4" conduit with a known calculated load of 30%?

Cheers
John


----------



## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

There's a reason it's called MTW, as opposed to "building wire".


----------



## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

joebanana said:


> There's a reason it's called MTW, as opposed to "building wire".


In the NEC, MTW stands for Machine Tool Wire insulation. 2014 NEC, page 175, T310.104(A). It can be stranded. Look at your #12 stranded. It probably is marked THHN, THWN, MTW.


----------



## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

Bird dog said:


> In the NEC, MTW stands for Machine Tool Wire insulation. 2014 NEC, page 175, T310.104(A). It can be stranded. Look at your #12 stranded. It probably is marked THHN, THWN, MTW.


I've never seen solid marked MTW. And, I don't recall ever seeing stranded called building wire. I always thought MTW was "code" for stranded.


----------



## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

I'm going to add to this thread that I think I've held my electrical career back being an employee in mostly commercial and industrial work. 

Now that I'm trying to dip into the solar world, it's hitting hard how little I know about residential as far as code requirements and load calcs and such. I'm getting scatter brained jumping between solar specific references and the NEC. I always respected residential work, but was happy to do so from afar, now it's in my face and I feel like an apprentice again.


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

TGGT said:


> I'm going to add to this thread that I think I've held my electrical career back being an employee in mostly commercial and industrial work.
> 
> Now that I'm trying to dip into the solar world, it's hitting hard how little I know about residential as far as code requirements and load calcs and such. I'm getting scatter brained jumping between solar specific references and the NEC. I always respected residential work, but was happy to do so from afar, now it's in my face and I feel like an apprentice again.



Don't fall off the roof.


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

TGGT said:


> I'm going to add to this thread that I think I've held my electrical career back being an employee in mostly commercial and industrial work.
> 
> Now that I'm trying to dip into the solar world, it's hitting hard how little I know about residential as far as code requirements and load calcs and such. I'm getting scatter brained jumping between solar specific references and the NEC. I always respected residential work, but was happy to do so from afar, now it's in my face and *I feel like an apprentice again*.


But at least now you are old enough to know all those hot housewife stories are just made up. :whistling2:


----------



## Drsparky14 (Oct 22, 2016)

Speedy Petey said:


> I know this is kind of a dead horse issue, but dude! *ALL* NM cable #8 and larger is stranded. Period, and of story.
> 
> This is not an issue that warrants arguing or debating.




I'd have to check but in my experience as an electrician and electrical contractor, purchasing materials is that all wire you buy that is #8AWG or larger is stranded. Not just NM. I mean I'm sure it may be possible to find it in solid. I mean I buy solid bare copper up to #4 for some jobs but mostly it's all stranded as stranded wire has more ampacity throughput before heating up. Because the electricity runs down the surface area of the wire. Simply put there is more surface area in stranded wire. But using stranded in low ampacity requirements is pointless besides making it easier to pull. I always order my thhn in stranded to make pulling through conduit easier but get my green thhn solid so I have one solid conductor just in case I'm pushing it through conduit. 

I do both Residential and Commercial work and I can tell you that you have to know more to do residential. In commercial unless you are the administrator doing load calculations and bidding is easy. You follow a print that tells you where everything goes. I've worked with commercial guys on a resi structure and they didn't even know sole detectors were required. Wall spacing for outlets was so hard to explain to them when it's such a simple thing. Back in the 60's commercial was harder than residential and commercial guys could wire resi easy. Two outlets in a bedroom and a light and move to the next room. 100a service and 5-8 circuits in a fuse box and they were done. But now that the NEC has covered so much in residential it is not an easy task to wire a house. The NEC is mostly all resi besides motors, some commercial service calculations and some >600v sections. The rest is mainly geared toward resi. I'd say about 60/40. 

In Washington there is a category of license for electricians who only do resi and those guys are making 30-40 an hour. While general journeyman make about 40-45 an hour. **** I know a resi guy who makes about 48! 

And another thing most commercial journeyman don't know **** about is low voltage. Because here is a specialty license for that as well here most general journeyman think it's beneath them to know low voltage. You tell me where in commercial work you end up wiring a panel with about 100x16 pair wires coming in all kinds of different colors and being able to wire it up? 

Point here is that all kinds of electrical can be hard. No electrical work is beneath another. I've been on resi jobs that make most commercial jobs seem like cake work and I've been on commercial jobs that make me want to do resi for the rest of my life. It all depends on the job. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Drsparky14 (Oct 22, 2016)

hardworkingstiff said:


> They (AHJ) don't allow tape re-identification around here, it must be "permanent".













These work really well. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Drsparky14 said:


> I'd have to check but in my experience as an electrician and electrical contractor, purchasing materials is that all wire you buy that is #8AWG or larger is stranded. Not just NM. I mean I'm sure it may be possible to find it in solid. I mean I buy solid bare copper up to #4 for some jobs but mostly it's all stranded as stranded wire has more ampacity throughput before heating up. Because the electricity runs down the surface area of the wire. Simply put there is more surface area in stranded wire. But using stranded in low ampacity requirements is pointless besides making it easier to pull. I always order my thhn in stranded to make pulling through conduit easier but get my green thhn solid so I have one solid conductor just in case I'm pushing it through conduit.
> 
> I do both Residential and Commercial work and I can tell you that you have to know more to do residential. In commercial unless you are the administrator doing load calculations and bidding is easy. You follow a print that tells you where everything goes. I've worked with commercial guys on a resi structure and they didn't even know sole detectors were required. Wall spacing for outlets was so hard to explain to them when it's such a simple thing. Back in the 60's commercial was harder than residential and commercial guys could wire resi easy. Two outlets in a bedroom and a light and move to the next room. 100a service and 5-8 circuits in a fuse box and they were done. But now that the NEC has covered so much in residential it is not an easy task to wire a house. The NEC is mostly all resi besides motors, some commercial service calculations and some >600v sections. The rest is mainly geared toward resi. I'd say about 60/40.
> 
> ...


You keep this up and I am going to use Hax's licky licky smiley on my reply's


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Anybody here ever screw up and mistakenly re-identify the wrong white conductor in a multi gang switch box? Now my next question is- Is it code legal to remake an identified wire white again as the code does not allow re-identifying wires to white wires..........................

hoo boy.


----------



## Drsparky14 (Oct 22, 2016)

macmikeman said:


> Anybody here ever screw up and mistakenly re-identify the wrong white conductor in a multi gang switch box? Now my next question is- Is it code legal to remake an identified wire white again as the code does not allow re-identifying wires to white wires..........................
> 
> 
> 
> hoo boy.




Mind blown... lol you make a good point. And in some jurisdictions where you cannot use tape, how do you go about phasing it back to white?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

Majewski said:


> Did I just read screwing?


Yeah, because you cant say ****ing here. :brows:


----------



## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

henderson14 said:


> I found your response condensending. Don't dish it if you can't take it kid. I tried to close out this thread with a compliment.


Uh ...yeah ..that'll never work...:whistling2:


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

This used to be a good thread.


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> You can use it as an example of a code compliant installation that made a lot of profit and left a happy customer.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MTW said:


>


How about this one?


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> How about this one?
> 
> 
> View attachment 106025


EMT outside?


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

I would have surface mounted the box behind the stove too, but kept it low to the floor. If it needed to be that high, I would have used carflex or ENT for a sleeve, no way I would have used EMT.


----------



## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

Last I checked the tables solid wire had a higher ampacity than stranded.

Sent from my SM-G360T using Tapatalk


----------



## mikewillnot (Apr 2, 2013)

telsa said:


> Residential has its own conventions.


hahahahahahhaha


----------

