# Whole House Voltage Monitor for Trouble Shooting?



## Greg Sparkovich (Sep 15, 2007)

I mostly work residential in a gentrifying city -meaning lots of old panels & meters, loose bugs, crappy grounding. I get a lot of situations where 1 leg of the service entrance isn't working/intermittent arcing.

I'm looking for recommendations to get a *voltage logger* to see if problems are in the service or past the panel in the house. I'd love something as simple as clamps that I could attach before or after the meter, or in the panel at the main breaker or to a DP breaker that I instal. I could leave it there for a day or two and see what kind of info I get.

For example:
Recently I got called for "flickering lights all over the house". I look at the relatively new panel, an old meter socket and decide to check the bugs on the aerial service. Sure enough, I find under-sized bugs and pock-marks on the POCO's wires and the SE cable that feeds the house so I redo all 3 bugs.

While I'm getting my check, the kitchen lights flicker -but it doesn't look like arcing, it looks like cycling. I check the dimmers and sure enough, it's a incandescent dimmer on a bank of LEDs (I should mention that I am the 3rd electrician they've called and at least one other guy checked the dimmers, so that's just friggin' sad).

My customer calls that night: changing the dimmer helped, but it's still flickering. They also say that the receptacles in the living room (different circuit) went out for about 30 seconds and their projector reset itself.

Now I'm back to thinking it's a service leg ...so it's the meter or the meter socket...or the POCO.

This is where I'd like to have a diagnostic tool so that I don't have to climb up and disconnect the nice new job I did on the bugs just so I can safely examine/clean the meter socket. Frankly, I don't have the time to redo the service any time soon so this is a pain in ma butt 

Anybody got suggestions for an inexpensive logger? Maybe something else?


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## LuckyLuke (Jun 1, 2015)

Fluke 289 is my weapon of choice for such things


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Get yourself a beast of burden and find the problems on the spot and you don't need a logger.


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## Greg Sparkovich (Sep 15, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> Get yourself a beast of burden and find the problems on the spot and you don't need a logger.


...Do you mean a helper? So, like have a kid sit in front of the panel with a volt meter on the mains while I go make out with a girlfriend...?

Or did you mean something else?


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## laurentopia (Apr 17, 2018)

Greg Sparkovich said:


> ...Do you mean a helper? So, like have a kid sit in front of the panel with a volt meter on the mains while I go make out with a girlfriend...?
> 
> Or did you mean something else?


I think he means a conductor tester. Look up mini beast, super beast.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I have both beast and mega beast. They show up on Ebay from time to time. Usually at good savings. Purposely made to help you figure out whether its line or neutral and you can move it around to find where the problem is at. The utilities usually have them.


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## Greg Sparkovich (Sep 15, 2007)

Ah, this makes sense. Thank you.

If i'm not mistaken, the "Beasts" are only good while you're there...so if the issue where connection problems when it's windy out, it would be useless when it's not windy. Or if water was getting in the SE, you'd have to test during the rain.
(Side note: speaking of rain... to anyone who doesn't tape up the sheathing gap at the weatherhead: seriously, how lazy can you get?)

Or am I missing something?

The point of the logger is that I get to leave it there to detect for intermittent problems *over time*. In this case, the problem cycles; I didn't time it, but I'd have to sit there staring at the Beast instead of doing something else. And if I get a log that shows intermittent anomalies on "Tuesday from 1am-6am" (while I'm hopefully sleeping) and then check the weather to see that it was windy or raining at that time...

...And as much as I like making out, I no longer use a helper


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## Greg Sparkovich (Sep 15, 2007)

Opinions? I don't know this company (Extech).

http://www.extech.com/resources/DL160data.pdf

256,000 logs @ 1 second/log over 24 hrs is about 3 days. ...and spending $300+ seems reasonable.

Any other ideas on brands or models? They have one for $50 less, but it isn't dual input and it only saves 100,000 readings (about 26 hours). Dual input seems smart since I could test a meter and a panel at the same time if they were close enough.

Thanks in advance.


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

I’ve had mixed results with Extech. Most of their stuff is a cut above Fluke in terms of bells and whistles but some of the converters are slow w and she me have board issues. That being said my go to Megger is an Extech and recently Flir bought them so hopefully improvements are on the way.

Look at Dranetz for top end. EIS makes the Shark series meters/switches which are the cheapest around for what they can do. Installed several. Also for power quality SEL makes one of their meters in a suitcase for this purpose.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Leaving a power quality analyzer at a house will only tell you that you have a problem, which you already know or suspect or you wouldn't be there in the first place. It also requires one or several re-visits to set it up in various locations to ferret out the source. I'd rather find it and fix it on the first visit with a beast and get it all knocked out and done right then. A power quality analyzer on a house seems like using something fancy for the sake of using somethig fancy and doesn't really translate to solving problems in my mind.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Fixing it on the first visit would be great but there are problems you're not going to be able to reproduce while you're watching, even with the Beast. 

I think a power quality monitor would be great to have and have looked at the Flukes but I have not pulled the trigger due to the much higher price tag. 

That Extech looks like you get a lot for $300 but would it be enough? I am not sure if the sample rate of one second is fast enough, it might miss some things. Three days recording seems like enough. It would be nice to have at least three current probes. It would be nice to measure voltage AND current at the same time. 

Extech isn't a brand I have high confidence in. I think for this kind of product you really can't be second guessing the readings you collect. 

I guess what it boils down to is, I feel like if I am going to do this for customers and charge them for it, it has to be done with the right tool for the job, not the closest I could come under $500. 

I could see going through quite a bit of rigmarole to record data and analyze it, and not find anything. I'd be wondering if the right tool for the job might have caught the problem, and wouldn't really feel right charging the customer for that. 

Then again if I DID figure it out with the $300 Extech data I'd feel GREAT that I didn't spend the extra $7,000.00 for the Fluke! 

I guess you have to ask which way your luck runs


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

I'm scratching my head trying to figure out exactly what resi problems a recording meter will find and help you solve.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

MDShunk said:


> I'm scratching my head trying to figure out exactly what resi problems a recording meter will find and help you solve.


I will give you one! 

I have a customer whose office building is over 100 years old. It's about house sized, real nice old building, beautifully renovated about 20 years ago. They were apparently having surges and power outages overnight, even in clear weather, and their neighbors had no trouble. 

They are on a separate transformer but have a neighbor that's a run down old industrial service, but I don't have any specifics there. 

I ran in circles with their problems until one day a train went by in the back. I didn't even know there were tracks back there, but they are REAL close. I am not sure if the lights dimmed or I was seeing stars, my teeth were rattling. Turns out the building was an old railroad office  

Anyway the problems were usually occurring at night because train traffic is mostly at night there. They never thought to mention the trains, they had never noticed anything happen during business hours when the train went by. 

I checked things on the premises, and the electrician that did the work when they built the place came out (out of retirement!) and found nothing serious. I cajoled the power company and they came out and of course claim they found no trouble, but they were working in the neighborhood half a day or so (unfortunately I was not there while they were working). The problems haven't recurred, it's been a couple years now. 

I suspect the neutral was opening due to vibration at the transformer and the power monitor would have seen occasional changes in the line-neutral voltage at the panel, and you would be able to corroborate that was coming from an open neutral by calculating the change in voltage and comparing it in the load on each leg at that moment.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

I suspect very much you could have duplicated that marginal neutral with a heavy load from a beast even if the trains weren't going by.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I'd like to have a PQ/energy monitor too, but my biggest problem is knowing how to interpret what I'm seeing. I have been looking at them for possible monitoring to better help size larger generators for commercial jobs. I'd like to see peak KW for instance, but unsure on how much data it'll acquire vs the sample time etc. I'd have to experiment some before I felt confident enough to say by looking at the data. I think looking at it, I might be able to say here's the problem on the screen, but you'd still be left with, where is it physically?


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

MDShunk said:


> I suspect very much you could have duplicated that marginal neutral with a heavy load from a beast even if the trains weren't going by.


I don't know, I kind of doubt it, there are lots of line - neutral loads, coffee makers, space heaters under the desks, etc. Heavy vibration causes problems that aren't there at all under normal conditions. 

There are always going to be problems that are intermittent, that you won't be able to produce on demand, for those, monitoring is often the best you can do.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

nrp3 said:


> I'd like to have a PQ/energy monitor too, but my biggest problem is knowing how to interpret what I'm seeing. I have been looking at them for possible monitoring to better help size larger generators for commercial jobs. I'd like to see peak KW for instance, but unsure on how much data it'll acquire vs the sample time etc. I'd have to experiment some before I felt confident enough to say by looking at the data. I think looking at it, I might be able to say here's the problem on the screen, but you'd still be left with, where is it physically?


Generator work would be an excellent use for a recording instrument. Although I just get a couple year's worth of billing data from the power company to do that. A lot of them can give you pretty detailed 15 minute demand data also depending on the metering arrangement. 

The "where is it physically" problem remains with all sorts of testing. Some of it is gut feeling and experience, but sometimes you're down to moving the meter around and collecting data for an awful lot of trips till you finally stumble upon some smoking gun. It is what it is.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Around here, doing even a weeks worth would only give part of the story because you're not capturing the AC condensers yet. Utility demand data would hopefully pick that up.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

I think for demand monitoring you can use a much different type of meter. For power quality, you need the fast sample rate, and you want more channels, voltage and current - it's going to be a lot more expensive. 

For demand etc., I don't think you care about a fast sample rate, and you just need to monitor current on the legs. This Extech would do two weeks on single phase residential service at five second sample rate if my math is right.


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## Greg Sparkovich (Sep 15, 2007)

The train example is a good one; we have trolleys here and that has been an issue. Another good one is people running up and down stairs.

The amperage test conditions with The Beast seems like a good idea for anomalies happening very frequently or on a regular cycle, but it also seems like it's more hit or miss ...plus you have to stare at it. And the 20 amp version doesn't seem like much of a "triggering" load unless this is happening so often that the problem could be solved with a space heater and a VOM. That doesn't seem like it's worth $700+. ...but the 80 amp version is $2,000+; so no way. This kind of mystery is a problem I see WAY less than once a year; the vast majority of the time, it's very obvious what the problem is.

So I still like the idea of a logger. Starting at the panel feeds, I can divide and conquer (service cable/meter or panel/circuit) and also find out if there are specific circumstances like time and weather. I mean, i'm going to open the panel anyway and one thing that works for *me* in terms of multiple visits is that I only work within 20 minutes of my house. So moving the logger is going to be something I do on my way out in the morning or my way home -less than a 10 minute visit including pleasantries unless I need to get on my ladder.

*Another* nice thing about the loggers is that most of them have alarms you can set, so if the voltage drops while you are doing other work in the house, you'll know without having to stare at the thing. So I'd just move it while I'm there.

It occurs to me that a voltage drop alarm could be a handy way of testing the neutral when upgrading the grounding/bonding system (I do a lot of that for POCO service re-introductions and home buyer's inspection reports). A little better than having to walk back to the panel to check a VOM.


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## weidigdj (8 mo ago)

I got flickering lights in my home. Single family home. I looked all-over the place for loose connections and didn't find anything until one day my neighbors AC turned on and was the source of my problem. I called the utility company but they said everything looks fine. It has to be somewhere from the meter back to the transformer. They seem not to care. Loose neutral somewhere. Any thoughts?


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## Quickservice (Apr 23, 2020)

LuckyLuke said:


> Fluke 289 is my weapon of choice for such things


Same here!


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## weidigdj (8 mo ago)

Quickservice said:


> Same here!


Has it been resolved?


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

weidigdj said:


> I got flickering lights in my home. Single family home. I looked all-over the place for loose connections and didn't find anything until one day my neighbors AC turned on and was the source of my problem. I called the utility company but they said everything looks fine. It has to be somewhere from the meter back to the transformer. They seem not to care. Loose neutral somewhere. Any thoughts?


I think you erroneously think a momentary dip in voltage due to increased load on the local grid is something that requires “fixing”.

Also, post your concerns over at www.diychatroom.com and please refrain from joining professional boards you’re not qualified to participate in.


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## weidigdj (8 mo ago)

well with the money i pay for electricity, momentary dips of voltage caused by my neighbor is an issue that needs to be fixed. I would think a professional like yourself would understand that.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

weidigdj said:


> well with the money i pay for electricity, momentary dips of voltage caused by my neighbor is an issue that needs to be fixed. I would think a professional like yourself would understand that.


You don’t pay any more money for electricity than everyone else does babe. I’m only telling you the same thing your utility tried to tell you, the fact that maybe you’re an entitled snowflake and think that you can get anything you want and will tantrum otherwise not with standing.

Get off the board and go to the DIY chat room where you belong.


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## Greg Sparkovich (Sep 15, 2007)

LGLS said:


> I think you erroneously think a momentary dip in voltage due to increased load on the local grid is something that requires “fixing”.


Yeah, this seems to happen more and more in my city. Just had a transformer die in my neighborhood and within 5 minutes, I had I think 7 contacts because people don't talk to their neighbors first or call the Power Co.

People don't understand that transformers age, POCO Bugs loosen and corrode like service bugs do, and people keep trading in their gas appliances for electrical appliances thinking that it's better for the environment (motors=Yes, heat production = No). People didn't all have central AC, Heat Pumps, etc. 20 years ago.

I want build back better, but I'd accept build back.


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

Greg Sparkovich said:


> I mostly work residential in a gentrifying city -meaning lots of old panels & meters, loose bugs, crappy grounding. I get a lot of situations where 1 leg of the service entrance isn't working/intermittent arcing.
> 
> I'm looking for recommendations to get a _voltage logger_ to see if problems are in the service or past the panel in the house. I'd love something as simple as clamps that I could attach before or after the meter, or in the panel at the main breaker or to a DP breaker that I instal. I could leave it there for a day or two and see what kind of info I get.
> 
> ...


Cheapest power meters out there is the Shark series by Electro Industries or the lower end of the Square D Powerlogics. It’s kind of strange but the portables are very expensive. Of the portables Dranetz has been a top company for years. You plug them in and walk away. They don’t even have a display because often you get almost a gigabyte of data over even a couple weeks. Bluetooth isn’t going to do it…Ethernet or memory cards and computer software are necessities. I’ve tried cheaper solutions like the old Fluke 43Bs and found they are so limited that I never got anything useful out of them. It’s like my multimeter which does harmonics…useful for a quick look or when I’m right there but I can’t just walk away and I can’t look simultaneously for a voltage dip and current surge and look at waveforms. These tools are expensive for a reason.

But the other side is that when you do an upgrade NEC let’s you measure load over a 2 week time period and use actual measurements instead of calculated loads. This can be the difference between a service upgrade and just a subpanel. If you have a power meter expect it to be out on rental more than it spends in the shop.

Interpretation though is the problem. Typically you will see a voltage dip and a corresponding current surge or just a current surge. The surge says you need to look downstream. The voltage says look upstream. This is also much easier with 3 phase because you only see it on one leg so you have something to compare it to. But it can also be an old AC starting especially with weak caps.

In long distances you can use multiple meters and “time of flight” so if there is a sudden flicker with very accurate clocks you can tell direction and how far away. That is how utilities do it on transmission lines where it tells you down to which pole it’s on but it won’t work in such a small distance.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I would love to delve into the PQ thing, if only to able to tell usage, inrush and maybe some basic pq factors, but fearful it would take a long time to learn to use it. I have two beast of burdens I bought on ebay. The smaller is squirrelled away somewhere. The Mega Beast stays on the truck and will usually sort out on whose side its on and what the problem is. A set of binoculars help too with the visual inspection. It's not a total cure, but it definitely narrows it down.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Greg Sparkovich said:


> Yeah, this seems to happen more and more in my city. Just had a transformer die in my neighborhood and within 5 minutes, I had I think 7 contacts because people don't talk to their neighbors first or call the Power Co.
> 
> People don't understand that transformers age, POCO Bugs loosen and corrode like service bugs do, and people keep trading in their gas appliances for electrical appliances thinking that it's better for the environment (motors=Yes, heat production = No). People didn't all have central AC, Heat Pumps, etc. 20 years ago.
> 
> I want build back better, but I'd accept build back.


Transformers age sure but it’s not like transformers have some kind of expiration date. They are built for and the utilities indeed do drive them hard. But seeing as just about every electric utility is a for-profit corporation and a electric utility standard has always been “keep the lights on no matter what“ the entirety of the outdoor plant is just used and abused until it fails, and then failure points are addressed as they occur. So they will do what they have to do when they have to do it, but proactive maintenance does not have an obvious return on investment.


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

Have to move to Australia? May be cheaper to keep current POCO


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## Greg Sparkovich (Sep 15, 2007)

LGLS said:


> electric utility is a for-profit corporation and...they will do what they have to do when they have to do it, but proactive maintenance does not have an obvious return on investment.


I agree totally. I'm not expecting much from them either.

My goal here is to find out what _I_ can fix -or at least give my customers a better answer than "Well, it could be...".

I've had 1 or 2 jobs where the cycling was obvious and regular, but on most the time it is irregular and I don't want to wait around for in hour...or literally days if the issue is moistness or vibration. It saves time for me to leave a monitor, come back and say "You're dropping voltage on this specific feeder/neutral/whatever, but only when it's raining out" (likely arial service bug or outdoor meter) or "it's cycling at regular intervals" (probably transformer), or "only when you're home" (Large appliance? Dryer? AC?).

The point for me is that if I charge my minimum ($150) and I can't find an answer (like it wasn't raining at the time), I feel like an ass. On the other hand, if I leave a monitor there, I'd charge less because it'll take 10 minutes to set up on the meter. After that, it will just be a matter of "divide and conquer" to find the connection of fault. Meanwhile, I'd also find out which leg (or neutral) the problem is at -which also saves time actually doing the labor to fix the issue if it isn't the power company's fault.

Since all of my work is within 20 mins of my house and most of it is in a 90 degree arc, it's easy for me to stop off at any customer's house during the course of a week.

I'm also going to add that a lot of electricians don't do this work, so I'm opening up an easy niche in my market that doesn't kill my body (I'm 61, so let me tell all you young folks: whatever pains you are experiencing now will ONLY get worse. Find a good PT; it is like investing in good tools: you'll wish you did it earlier).


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