# Is there a product line to replace 50's low voltage switches?



## ohm it hertz

I'm quoting a residential main service upgrade. The homeowner has a vast array of low voltage lighting and would like the switches replaced. The home was built in the late 60s and was the original model home, formerly owned by one of the general contractors who built houses on the entire block. For how dated the home is, it is very clean and the new homeowner doesn't want to eliminate the lv system. Is there a product line of replacement switches you guys use? I'm going to stop by the SH tomorrow but thought I'd ask here, too. 

Ordinarily, I gut and rewire these circuits, so this will be interesting. If I win the bid I'll be sure to take pics of the space age bathroom and orange barstools!


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## emtnut

Kyle switch plates has some. Never ordered from them, so no idea what their product or pricing is like.


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## MHElectric

There’s something about walking into an older home from the 1950’s-60’s, that is in pristine condition and hasn’t been remodeled. Is almost like a time travel back to a simpler time. And it reminds me about Grandma & Grandpa’s house.


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## ohm it hertz

emtnut said:


> Kyle switch plates has some. Never ordered from them, so no idea what their product or pricing is like.


Thank you for this! Their site is very informative and has direct replacements for the customer's GE rocker style switches.


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## SWDweller

Ge still makes them and the relays for when they go bad.

As stated Kyle is a great resource.
Hubble, Wattstopper, Legrand and Leviton all make LV switches. Some are pretty racy looking. NONE are inexpensive. 
The system voltage is 24vac so it is sometimes easier to switch the common rather a than
the power wire. I got some LV switches to preform like the dickens at over 100 yards of wire length. 

I was running 5 switches to a common. It is in the GE guide. Multiple conductor cable saves a lot of nonsense. 
Your in for a treat the system is interesting to work with. How ever the made for you relay panels are right out of the stone age. 
We had some GE panels with a brain in each one which meant a clock in each one. GE's concept to synro the clocks was thousands of dollars. It was a big deal for the outside lights to some people/users.
So I bought a PLC to run the outputs, pulled a bit of wire and the lights were perfect for the users.


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## Kawicrash

Something to keep in mind if you're ever considering swapping LV switches to line voltage, there probably won't be boxes and the wires run all manner of directions.
I was sent to a job where the boss thought we could just replace the switches and use the old LV wire to pull in loomex. Ummm... no.
He was an idiot though, and that shop shut down shortly after I left. I was only there for an interim position thankfully


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## GPM

As mentioned by several people there are plenty of replacement parts including relays. The house I did also had a central "command" panel in the master bedroom. It is actually a bit like the current home automation systems without an app.

One thing I did that made the homeowners VERY happy was to ensure that ALL switches were mounted so that pressing the "up" part of the switch turned things on and the "down" turned them off. The house was full of inconsistent switches which was a bit of madness.

Much cheaper to fix this stuff than replace it and it is sort of Jetson's cool.

Good luck.


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## MHElectric

The only home automation stuff I’ve seen has been in newer homes. And very few.

Ive only heard about the older LV wiring from the 60’s on here.


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## Rainwater01

I work on a 1950's house periodically. It has a touchplate low voltage system. They're still in business believe it or not. About - Touch-Plate Lighting Controls (touchplate.com)


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## Viggmundir

GPM said:


> As mentioned by several people there are plenty of replacement parts including relays. The house I did also had a central "command" panel in the master bedroom. It is actually a bit like the current home automation systems without an app.
> 
> One thing I did that made the homeowners VERY happy was to ensure that ALL switches were mounted so that pressing the "up" part of the switch turned things on and the "down" turned them off. The house was full of inconsistent switches which was a bit of madness.
> 
> Much cheaper to fix this stuff than replace it and it is sort of Jetson's cool.
> 
> Good luck.


I just did one 2 weeks ago. New owners moved the wall in the master bedroom about 2 ft. Thankfully they were redoing the flooring as well, so I could cut out the subfloor to reroute the bottom fed wiring. They had a 'master' switch that when you pressed it on or off, it would sequentially turn on/off around 16 lights throughout the house, about 1 light a second. They also had one of those 'control panel' switches that is basically 2 12 position rotary switches put together. One dial for off, one dial for on, turn it to a number(legend tells you what light it is) and click it. Fed with a 40ish conductor cable... all soldered joints.


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## Viggmundir

ohm it hertz said:


> Thank you for this! Their site is very informative and has direct replacements for the customer's GE rocker style switches.


Be careful with this!! 
Depending on what style you have currently, they may not be a direct match. At some point they changed their design from a rocker to a 2 pushbutton style. The mounting plates also got changed, and if you change switches you will probably have to change mounting plates as well. 

Just wanted to give you a heads up!


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## yankeejoe1141

Viggmundir said:


> Be careful with this!!
> Depending on what style you have currently, they may not be a direct match. At some point they changed their design from a rocker to a 2 pushbutton style. The mounting plates also got changed, and if you change switches you will probably have to change mounting plates as well.
> 
> Just wanted to give you a heads up!


I had a problem with the mounting plates, I ended up using a Dremel with a grinding wheel to enlarge the old mounts.

Another problem I have with LV switches is explaining to the customer why they can't have dimmers.


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## MHElectric

yankeejoe1141 said:


> Another problem I have with LV switches is explaining to the customer why they can't have dimmers.


Forget the customer! Explain to me why LV switching can’t have dimmers!


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## samgregger

MHElectric said:


> Forget the customer! Explain to me why LV switching can’t have dimmers!


Because the switches latch relays that control the lights, not the lights themselves.

You can really use any momentary switch you want, like on-off-on toggle or push button.


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## dspiffy

MHElectric said:


> There’s something about walking into an older home from the 1950’s-60’s, that is in pristine condition and hasn’t been remodeled. Is almost like a time travel back to a simpler time. And it reminds me about Grandma & Grandpa’s house.


This.

I love low voltage systems when they work.


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## yankeejoe1141

MHElectric said:


> Forget the customer! Explain to me why LV switching can’t have dimmers!


The systems I’ve come across just send a momentary 24v to a relay that’s either open or closed, the 120v either passes through the relay or it doesn’t. 

Have you seen other systems that can dim also?


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## MHElectric

yankeejoe1141 said:


> The systems I’ve come across just send a momentary 24v to a relay that’s either open or closed, the 120v either passes through the relay or it doesn’t.
> 
> Have you seen other systems that can dim also?


I know nothing about this stuff.


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## yankeejoe1141

MHElectric said:


> I know nothing about this stuff.


I was hoping you knew of something I didn’t. It’s only happened once but I had to try and explain why the customer couldn’t have a dimmer on the light.


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## GladMech

As far as I am concerned, low voltage is the way to go. I was never interested in dimming as long as the lighting for each room was designed for the use of the room. I just wanted maximum controllability. I have a GE 90-30 PLC and a panel of 48 relays. All switches are 24vac home run to the PLC. The switches are cheap 5/8" doorbell buttons mounted in standard wooden toggle switch plates (3 or 6 per single or double plate). (They look very nice & have the feel of the 40's vintage toggle push button switches, which is what I was going for.) Each button is programmed "push-on, push-off". In all of the main rooms, the last button turns off ALL of the lights in the house. In my mind, that one function justified the whole system. 
I went industrial, because I had no confidence that _any_ of the residential systems would stay in business. 25 years later, it is still working perfectly. Components are still readily available remanufactured or even new (although I have only ever had one output card fail.).


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## yankeejoe1141

If I came across a PLC lighting system in a house I wouldn’t know where to begin. I have had zero experience with PLC’s. Don’t you need to connect a laptop to program it all?


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## GladMech

MHElectric said:


> Forget the customer! Explain to me why LV switching can’t have dimmers!


Quick, straight answer: LV with relays is digital, on-off only because the actual power to the light never goes anywhere near the switch.


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## GladMech

yankeejoe1141 said:


> If I came across a PLC lighting system in a house I wouldn’t know where to begin. I have had zero experience with PLC’s. Don’t you need to connect a laptop to program it all?


 Yes. The programming software is the same brand as the PLC (and sometimes costs the same). If I ever sell the house, the serial/RS422 connected Windows XP computer and the GE Logicmaster software will be included.
Although, troubleshooting the wiring is simple. Push the button, and the appropriate PLC input light comes on. The program will never change. If it worked yesterday, it will not work _differently_ today. See if the appropriate output light comes on. See if the appropriate relay comes on. Each relay is fed by a separate CB. (In 25 years, I have never had a relay or (lighting) CB fail or trip.)


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## paulengr

GladMech said:


> Quick, straight answer: LV with relays is digital, on-off only because the actual power to the light never goes anywhere near the switch.


You can dim it. You just have to modulate the power feeding the relay contacts. This is independent of the switching. Sort of like a dimmer. They usually have both on/off and light level controls.

With a PLC commercial dimmers and LED drivers accept 0-10 VDC signals. Easy with a PLC, hard with those 60s lighting controls. No Google needed.


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## C-636

Curiously, both the houses my parents owned were done with low voltage switching. The second one had a GE all-electric kitchen, complete with pink pre-fab steel cabinetry and push-button burner controls on the cook top. Anyway, I assume it also used the GE LV lighting control system.

One place LV can shine is when there's an "open floorplan" where there can be multiple entrances to various rooms.

Say you've got a living room with 5 entrances (which I have done). That would be wiring for 2 3-ways and 3 4-ways. Lots of wire. With LV, it's a (cheap) cable from each switch to the central panel.

Except for my parents' houses, I haven't run into any LV lighting controls in my 50 year career. But I'm still looking forward to it.


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## Inspector Flynn

ohm it hertz said:


> I'm quoting a residential main service upgrade. The homeowner has a vast array of low voltage lighting and would like the switches replaced. The home was built in the late 60s and was the original model home, formerly owned by one of the general contractors who built houses on the entire block. For how dated the home is, it is very clean and the new homeowner doesn't want to eliminate the lv system. Is there a product line of replacement switches you guys use? I'm going to stop by the SH tomorrow but thought I'd ask here, too.
> 
> Ordinarily, I gut and rewire these circuits, so this will be interesting. If I win the bid I'll be sure to take pics of the space age bathroom and orange barstools!


Try Touch plate lighting online www.touchplate.com. Or Kyle Switch Plates.www.kyleswitchplates.com. GE made a lot originally and they may still supply switches, RS232 for example.


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## ElectronFlow

ohm it hertz said:


> I'm quoting a residential main service upgrade. The homeowner has a vast array of low voltage lighting and would like the switches replaced. The home was built in the late 60s and was the original model home, formerly owned by one of the general contractors who built houses on the entire block. For how dated the home is, it is very clean and the new homeowner doesn't want to eliminate the lv system. Is there a product line of replacement switches you guys use? I'm going to stop by the SH tomorrow but thought I'd ask here, too.
> 
> Ordinarily, I gut and rewire these circuits, so this will be interesting. If I win the bid I'll be sure to take pics of the space age bathroom and orange barstools!


well, you have an interesting situation. all the switchlegs go to a common place.
you could do a lutron radioRA with pico switches, and it'd be effortless, and wireless.

and dimmable. with scenes, if you like. that is probably what i'd do, to have dimming capability.


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## AVService

This is what RA is for!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## SWDweller

Really depends on the PLC. Some have tiny screens that you can see a few contacts. Most however do not. Then comes the rub, was it made when the world revolved around DOS or late
Each brand has a different programing language and some of the old CH branded Toshiba's had DOS and Windoze versions, not compatible. Gotta have the right cord and just thinking I am not even sure my laptop has an serial port for communication. times have changed


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## paulengr

SWDweller said:


> Really depends on the PLC. Some have tiny screens that you can see a few contacts. Most however do not. Then comes the rub, was it made when the world revolved around DOS or late
> Each brand has a different programing language and some of the old CH branded Toshiba's had DOS and Windoze versions, not compatible. Gotta have the right cord and just thinking I am not even sure my laptop has an serial port for communication. times have changed


DOSEMU and Virtualbox fix this. Then just get a GOOD serial dongle. Many don’t do true RS-232. I’ve run just about any PLC software for years in some virtual machine. Works fine as long as you don’t need really screwy hardware. Hard to do “Synet” for instance without an ancient Ethernet card that no longer exists and can’t plug into a modern PC. I’ve done a lot of this. But at some point it’s cheaper to just start over.

I’ve used those tiny screen PLCs. I think IDEC did those for a while. Best to stick with reliability over a feature that will likely fail. Kind of like X10 and computer driven home automation.


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## GladMech

"Best to stick with reliability over a feature that will likely fail. Kind of like X10 and computer driven home automation." I seriously considered X10 & decided it was a gimmicky toy. I can't imagine it still working 25 years later. Fine Homebuilding had an article on home automation the featured three systems. By the time the article came out, two of the three companies were already out of business! I said, "OK! Industrial it is!"


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## dspiffy

GladMech said:


> "Best to stick with reliability over a feature that will likely fail. Kind of like X10 and computer driven home automation." I seriously considered X10 & decided it was a gimmicky toy. I can't imagine it still working 25 years later. Fine Homebuilding had an article on home automation the featured three systems. By the time the article came out, two of the three companies were already out of business! I said, "OK! Industrial it is!"


We still use X10 in our master bedroom. It's the easiest, most cost effective option that allows both my wife and I to control and dim all the lamps, including beside AND overhead, from each of our nightstands AND by the door.

Until we converted to a smart house, we were still using X10 to control the living room and dining room lights as well, as well as all indoor Christmas decorations. It was still working fine, but once we started using Alexa for other things I wanted to have our lights on smart control, and it was easier and cheaper to just replacing everything, rather than try to integrate X10 into Alexa-- which can be done, apparently. Our bedroom is the only room in the house that isnt "smart."

I first started using X10 as a kid in the late 80s or early 90s. A 30-40 year run isnt bad.


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## ohm it hertz

Customer called me back and accepted the service replacement. He wants me to throw him numbers for the switches as a separate bid. Sounds like some Ra dimmable lighting might be in this guy's future.


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## Almost Retired

emtnut said:


> Kyle switch plates has some. Never ordered from them, so no idea what their product or pricing is like.


Yes, i agree with emtnut. i have ordered and replaced lv switches and covers (multi gang too) from kyle. i was satisfied


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## Almost Retired

yankeejoe1141 said:


> I was hoping you knew of something I didn’t. It’s only happened once but I had to try and explain why the customer couldn’t have a dimmer on the light.


You can dim it .... if you run a new 120V switch leg to a new dimmer switch. bet they wouldnt want to pay that much ....


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## dspiffy

Almost Retired said:


> You can dim it .... if you run a new 120V switch leg to a new dimmer switch. bet they wouldnt want to pay that much ....


Smart bulbs is probably the easiest solution here.

Could also wire a smart dimmer after the relay for that circuit.


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## Dennis Alwon

I have bought from Kyle a few times. Definitely a reputable company and product got here on time....Prices seemed reasonable for what you got...


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## SomeJoe

Yet, I've seen these systems. Certainly confusing to newbies or sparkies that have not seen those before, I know I was.
Once you figure out how it works it's just a matter of replacing the component. As mentioned above, Kyle.
Either the switch or relay, photos I had were destroyed along with old cellphone. 
No you can't dim, unless the actual light bulb is a smart one and can link up to your phone.


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## joe-nwt

How common is LV switching in residential applications in the US? Common here in commercial, can't say as I've ever seen it in residential.


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## splatz

joe-nwt said:


> How common is LV switching in residential applications in the US? Common here in commercial, can't say as I've ever seen it in residential.


I've never seen it in my area and I work in a lot of old buildings. I would really like to work on one or even put it in my house. In the time this stuff was installed I think our economy was a lot more localized. Certain brands were more popular in certain regions. I think that was the case with this stuff, where GE was more popular you see it.


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## Rainwater01

I only remember seeing it in two houses. One was a “touchplate” from the fifties and the other was a GE maybe from the seventies. I think in the early fifties we were still getting over supply shortages from the war and low voltage wire obviously used less copper. At $160 for a roll of 12/2 it might be a good idea to go back to it again. Smart switches can save a lot of copper too. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dspiffy

joe-nwt said:


> How common is LV switching in residential applications in the US? Common here in commercial, can't say as I've ever seen it in residential.


Pulling a number completely out of my ass, I'd say if you work on upper middle class homes built post WWII, pre 1980, that havent been renovated, you have a 30% chance of seeing it. Same for churches built in the same era.

I have never been full time residential and yet I could easily name a dozen homes in my area that have it, assuming they havent ripped it out since my last visit.


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## yankeejoe1141

Here is a pic of a system I worked on about a year ago, had to find the bad relay. When I look at that spaghetti I just want to throw some marinara on it and leave. It was a small house, maybe 1200 sq ft and it had two panels like this and several one-off relays around the house. Every light and some outlets were low voltage switched. It was probably pretty high tech and fancy when it was built.


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## Almost Retired

A couple years ago I worked on a system with a 23 relay panel mounted next to a QO 30 space breaker panel, they were physically the same size. No labels, no drawings, nobody knew what was what or where it went, or the breaker that fed it. The only thing for sure was a lot of it didnt work, and they wanted it fixed.
It also had a 24 switch panel in the master bedroom, #24 was a master over ride. It fired 2 sequencing relays to turn everything off or on. Wish I had panel pics, but i dont. Previous to that I have worked in several houses that had individual relays mounted in the ceiling boxes and or recessed light fixtures. 

The very first time I got a call to work on a system (1992 or so). They say "my 3 way switch is bad". So I get a new switch and head over. When I tried the switch it returned to center, so yep, its bad. Took the cover plate off and see thermostat wires on the switch WHOAH ! . Finally they showed me the relay panel, I stared at it for a while and told them I dont know how to work on this, and could not get the right switch either. At that point I hoped i never saw that crazy stuff again.

Years later and having learned industrial relay control systems. I end up fixing the system I mentioned in the beginning. I had to make a chart for the relay panel, and another for the master switch panel, and a drawing of each room in the house just to get it all verified and documented. Then I had to find and order replacements for the bad relays and switches. Turned into quite a job. Bye the way I had a competent electrician helping me with the verification part.


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## 460 Delta

yankeejoe1141 said:


> Here is a pic of a system I worked on about a year ago, had to find the bad relay. When I look at that spaghetti I just want to throw some marinara on it and leave. It was a small house, maybe 1200 sq ft and it had two panels like this and several one-off relays around the house. Every light and some outlets were low voltage switched. It was probably pretty high tech and fancy when it was built.


We don’t need to work about no stinking box fill. Lol.


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## dspiffy

yankeejoe1141 said:


> Here is a pic of a system I worked on about a year ago, had to find the bad relay. When I look at that spaghetti I just want to throw some marinara on it and leave. It was a small house, maybe 1200 sq ft and it had two panels like this and several one-off relays around the house. Every light and some outlets were low voltage switched. It was probably pretty high tech and fancy when it was built.


Wow that's the oldest one I've seen!


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## ohm it hertz

I still have the job from the original post, the HO had to cancel due to other expenses that popped up. The work isn't scheduled yet, though.


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## yankeejoe1141

460 Delta said:


> We don’t need to work about no stinking box fill. Lol.


Oh you're right, there is a box there. I couldn't see it past that mess, LOL!


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## yankeejoe1141

dspiffy said:


> Wow that's the oldest one I've seen!


The very few (maybe 3) systems that I've come across have all looked like this or similar, I haven't seen any that were more modern looking.


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