# Sorting out the mess



## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

The pictures speak for themselves, 3 phase high leg delta 4 wire feed to one fused disconnect, no sub-panel,or breakers, feeding commercial pool equipment. 

Why use an isolation transformer to feed the pool light ?


----------



## forgotflying (Mar 2, 2011)

All i can say is wow....
Rip it all out and start fresh imo.


----------



## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

forgotflying said:


> All i can say is wow....
> Rip it all out and start fresh imo.


 
Yeah, I was really concerned with no independant cb protection for the filter motor, heater ignition, light, and sump pump. But to my suprise, the fusing in that disconnect is only 20A per phase !


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

I love the abstract art piece of PVC box. :laughing: 

The fans in the wall are different too. :lol:


----------



## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

A couple of issues I see;

1) The lighting transformer is not protected against overload. 

2) There's no individual disconnecting means for the motor starter. 

3) It looks like blue (C) is the high leg. It's required to be B. Also, it needs to be orange. 

4) No covers, and exposed wiring.

If it were me, I'd rip out just about everything and start over. If the starter looks ok, re-using it would be acceptable. 

The transformer could be there in an attempt to comply with 680.23 (underwater light fixtures), or if the secondary is 12 volts, a lot of pool lights are 12V. 

A bit of clean-up and re-design and it'd look good and be safer.


----------



## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

Jlarson said:


> I love the abstract art piece of PVC box. :laughing:
> 
> The fans in the wall are different too. :lol:


Ha ! At first I thought it was distorted from the sun ? But later learned the old heater was exhausting onto the box !

Larson, Someone uses a xfmr for the pool light. 240V in and 120V out. This system already has a neutral, why do you think they needed that xfmr ? Would it be to isolate the Gfi for the pool light from spikes from the motors ?

They also joined the isolated neutral back into the wirenut with all the neutrals ???


----------



## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

Those are great pics. You need to post the before and afters on your website.....and here!:thumbsup:


----------



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

I love ripping stuff like that out. It's like therapy.


----------



## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

Here is a view with my head looking out of the vault


----------



## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

Switched said:


> Those are great pics. You need to post the before and afters on your website.....and here!:thumbsup:


 
"The after" will be a picture of my proposal with a red stamp on it saying "Rejected" :laughing:


----------



## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

Big John said:


> I love ripping stuff like that out. It's like therapy.


 
Does a delta with a high leg typically have a neutral ? I would think not :blink:


----------



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

dronai said:


> Does a delta with a high leg typically have a neutral ? I would think not :blink:


 You're thinking of a straight delta. The 208V in the highleg results from the measurement between "B" and the center neutral tap.


----------



## SteveBayshore (Apr 7, 2013)

When I started as an apprentice, before GFIs, actually in '71 I don't even think that PVC conduit was even listed in the NEC yet. All underwater pool lighting consisted of 12 volt, 300 watt sealed beam lamps. All fixtures were connected to isolation transformers and had #8 or #10 gauge wire to each fixture from the transformer. 300w divided by 12v = 25 amps per fixture. As a matter of fact, the wet nitch fixtures were connected with BRASS conduit, no PVC in the code yet. I think that the isolation transformers are still listed as a means to connect pool fixtures.


----------



## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

SteveBayshore said:


> When I started as an apprentice, before GFIs, actually in '71 I don't even think that PVC conduit was even listed in the NEC yet. All underwater pool lighting consisted of 12 volt, 300 watt sealed beam lamps. All fixtures were connected to isolation transformers and had #8 or #10 gauge wire to each fixture from the transformer. 300w divided by 12v = 25 amps per fixture. As a matter of fact, the wet nitch fixtures were connected with BRASS conduit, no PVC in the code yet. I think that the isolation transformers are still listed as a means to connect pool fixtures.


 
I think they still use the red brass to the lights

This is 240V primary, and 120V secondary If I get to rebuild this equipment, I don't think I need it, do you ?


----------



## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

dronai said:


> I think they still use the red brass to the lights
> 
> This is 240V primary, and 120V secondary If I get to rebuild this equipment, I don't think I need it, do you ?


680.23 (A) (8) States that either a listed pool isolation transformer or a GFI is required for pool lights operating above 15 volts. 

I very seriously doubt if the existing transformer is listed to supply pool lights.


----------



## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

If it's 4 wire, it does indeed have a neutral. 

In my experience, about 80% of the 240 volt 3ø services I have worked with are 4 wire. With a neutral and a high leg.

The other 20% were 240 volt 3ø 3 wire. Usually the B phase is grounded. No 120, just 240. Phase to phase and phase to ground.


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

dronai said:


> Ha ! At first I thought it was distorted from the sun ? But later learned the old heater was exhausting onto the box !
> 
> Larson, Someone uses a xfmr for the pool light. 240V in and 120V out. This system already has a neutral, why do you think they needed that xfmr ? Would it be to isolate the Gfi for the pool light from spikes from the motors ?
> 
> They also joined the isolated neutral back into the wirenut with all the neutrals ???


I think somebody just hacked it in cause they didn't know any better. Its not an actual low voltage pool light transformer obviously.


----------



## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

micromind said:


> 680.23 (A) (8) States that either a listed pool isolation transformer or a GFI is required for pool lights operating above 15 volts.
> 
> I very seriously doubt if the existing transformer is listed to supply pool lights.


 
Maybe since this set up is so old (before gfi's)  I remember those days, that later on someone added the gfi protection.
So now it only requires the Gfi.


----------



## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

micromind said:


> If it's 4 wire, it does indeed have a neutral.
> 
> *I know *
> 
> ...


*When I was a first year I remembered seeing a 3 phase 3 wire, with a "stinger" leg, didn't read to ground, only phase to phase.*


----------



## bkmichael65 (Mar 25, 2013)

When I saw an Acme transformer it all made sense. Wiring practices like that are why the coyote was never able to catch the roadrunner


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

The beauty of this hack is even better when viewed on a laptop instead of a droid :laughing:


----------



## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

dronai said:


> Here is a view with my head looking out of the vault


Oh that's nice. So instead of looking at a fubar electrical installation you get to look at a fat chick on the beach.

Great working conditions :laughing:


----------



## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

I like a big legged women :thumbup:


----------



## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

dronai said:


> I like a big legged women :thumbup:


I like seeing the Ripples.


----------



## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

erics37 said:


> I like seeing the Ripples.


Eric, by any chance did you happen to hit the R key when you meant to hit the N?

Lol.


----------

