# Help! Wiring a House...



## D3UCE (Oct 17, 2012)

Hello....I am about to rewire a house which was completely gutted so all wiring and devices will be new....the issue I'm having is I don't have a strong residential background and don't know how to distribute my circuits....here is what I had in mind......bed 1, bed 2, bed 3, bath 1, bath 2, smokes, living 1, living 2, 2 kitchen small app. circuits, disposal, dishwasher, range, W/H, washer, dryer, garage, AC 1, AC 2,....all will be done in 12awg. So I would like to know if it would be alright if each bedroom was on one circuit both the lighting and outlets....being that now the lighting must also be on an AFCI. I don't care about overdoing i rather be above code than border. . Thanks for all your help.....


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Using #12 for everything tells me right away you are in over your head... :no::no:


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Hire a professional. 

IBTL


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

D3UCE said:


> Hello....I am about to rewire a house which was completely gutted so all wiring and devices will be new....the issue I'm having is I don't have a strong residential background and don't know how to distribute my circuits....here is what I had in mind......bed 1, bed 2, bed 3, bath 1, bath 2, smokes, living 1, living 2, 2 kitchen small app. circuits, disposal, dishwasher, range, W/H, washer, dryer, garage, AC 1, AC 2,....all will be done in 12awg. So I would like to know if it would be alright if each bedroom was on one circuit both the lighting and outlets....being that now the lighting must also be on an AFCI. I don't care about overdoing i rather be above code than border. . Thanks for all your help.....


You are wasting AFCI breakers doing it that way. There isn't enough draw in a bedroom for it to need a dedicated 20A circuit for each. Plus, it is a good idea to separate lighting and receptacle circuits, so if something happens in an appliance or some such it doesn't kill the lights. Also, running 12 gauge for lighting circuits is just silly. 14 for lighting and bedroom receptacles is fine, especially with central air. I was taught to do receptacle circuits with 12 gauge to allow for window AC units.


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## D3UCE (Oct 17, 2012)

Im sorry I didnt think I had to specify that the dryer, range, ac, etc....were going to be in 10awg, 8awg,.......


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## D3UCE (Oct 17, 2012)

I am going to do 15amp breakers and just run 12/2 price is not that big of a difference if the owner ever wanted to he can replace breaker and devices himself the wire will already be there.


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## denny3992 (Jul 12, 2010)

Smoke det on with a bed circ or ltg circ....


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## D3UCE (Oct 17, 2012)

smokes on dedicated 15amp afci circuit...14/3 to interconnect all....


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

D3UCE said:


> smokes on dedicated 15amp afci circuit...14/3 to interconnect all....


 
That's stupid.


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## rexowner (Apr 12, 2008)

D3UCE said:


> smokes on dedicated 15amp afci circuit...14/3 to interconnect all....


many cities here require them to be on the same circuit as bedroom
lites. you would be busted for a dedicated circut.


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

I really hope you aren't wiring any 3 way or 4 way switches. Box fill can be a b!tch when using 12 wire.

If this is a small house I can see where the labor and material are negligible, but a larger house price can add up fast. In my area, 250' of 14/2 is around $50, while 250' of 12/2 is around $75.

Unless the homeowner requested all 20 amp circuits, I'm not seeing where this makes any sense at all.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

D3UCE said:


> Im sorry I didnt think I had to specify that the dryer, range, ac, etc....were going to be in 10awg, 8awg,.......


Well, I don't know what to tell ya then buddy, but good luck. You ask for advice and then start poking at the advice being given. :laughing:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> That's stupid.


Instead of saying That's stupid,Why don't you tell him how *YOU *would do it..


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Is this for a customer or your own personal house..

I ask this because you are throwing money out the window with the design you have posted so far...


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

D3UCE said:


> smokes on dedicated 15amp afci circuit...14/3 to interconnect all....


You want to tie the smokes on with a lighting circuit so some dummy doesn't just shut the breaker off when the smokes are chirping their low battery noise. If you have them on a dedicated circuit, than that is easy to do. If you have them on with the bedroom lights, then it makes getting dressed in the early morning pretty hard to do.


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## D3UCE (Oct 17, 2012)

In AZ every new home ive been to the smokes are on their own 15amp circuit....If the home owner decides they want to shut the breaker off I would say thats on them...either way if they shut it off the smoke has a battery back up and will eventually start to chirp....


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

D3UCE said:


> In AZ every new home ive been to the smokes are on their own 15amp circuit....If the home owner decides they want to shut the breaker off I would say thats on them...either way if they shut it off the smoke has a battery back up and will eventually start to chirp....


Right there you are wasting $50.00 on a AFCI breaker for no good reason... plus the cost of a home run...

Then every new house you looked at was done wrong... unless there is a local code I don't know about....


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## drewnasty (Mar 2, 2012)

I am always required to run all my smokies with 14-3 on dedicated circuit so when one goes off they all go off


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

B4T I don't wire residential for a living (commercial/industrial only), but if I wired my own house, it would be wired using #12 wire. Could care less about the increased cost, its minimal, and not really a factor when wiring your own house.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

drewnasty said:


> I am always required to run all my smokies with 14-3 on dedicated circuit so when one goes off they all go off


14/3 between the smokes is correct... putting them on their own circuit makes no sense to me at all....:no::no:


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

360max said:


> B4T I don't wire residential for a living (commercial/industrial only), but if I wired my own house, it would be wired using #12 wire. Could care less about the increased cost, its minimal, and not really a factor when wiring your own house.


360, you're a cool dude, but this is SO dumb. #12 is NOT automatically better just 'cause it bigger.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

360max said:


> B4T I don't wire residential for a living (commercial/industrial only), but if I wired my own house, it would be wired using #12 wire. Could care less about the increased cost, its minimal, and not really a factor when wiring your own house.


So what do you think you are gaining by using all #12... :blink::blink:


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

drspec said:


> *I really hope you aren't wiring any 3 way or 4 way switches. Box fill can be a b!tch when using 12 wire.*
> 
> If this is a small house I can see where the labor and material are negligible, but a larger house price can add up fast. In my area, 250' of 14/2 is around $50, while 250' of 12/2 is around $75.
> 
> Unless the homeowner requested all 20 amp circuits, *I'm not seeing where this makes any sense at all.*


THIS! :thumbsup:


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## crazyboy (Nov 8, 2008)

drewnasty said:


> I am always required to run all my smokies with 14-3 on dedicated circuit so when one goes off they all go off


They are still required to be interconnected, just silly to have it on a dedicated circuit.


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## mdfriday (May 14, 2007)

Ibtl


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

D3UCE said:


> I am going to do 15amp breakers and just run 12/2 price is not that big of a difference if the owner ever wanted to he can replace breaker and devices himself the wire will already be there.


BUT WHY??? What possible reason would you have for putting #12 on a 15A breaker??? :001_huh: :blink:
Is the house HUGE that voltage drop is a concern?


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## drewnasty (Mar 2, 2012)

I agree , stupid to have own circuit for smoke detectors but inspectors have poped me once or twice and every new house I have seen in so cal has breakers on own circuit


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## D3UCE (Oct 17, 2012)

Yes.....thats what it is.......every new house in AZ has been wired wrong....please.....do teach us...Master...Just because you overdue something doesnt mean its wrong it just means you exceeded expectations if its costing me more money thats my deal and the HO who asks for it....14 gauge is starting to become a thing of the past now there is nothing wrong with running 12 except for box fill...thats a good point....14/3 for smokes is good...so please stop treating me like im an idiot...


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

drewnasty said:


> I agree , stupid to have own circuit for smoke detectors but inspectors have poped me once or twice and every new house I have seen in so cal has breakers on own circuit


You need to ask the inspector for a code refrence.. if anything... putting the smokes on a dedicated circuit puts the HO more at risk..

Having other outlets on that circuit alerts them there is something wrong....


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

D3UCE said:


> Yes.....thats what it is.......every new house in AZ has been wired wrong....please.....do teach us...Master...Just because you overdue something doesnt mean its wrong it just means you exceeded expectations if its costing me more money thats my deal and the HO who asks for it....14 gauge is starting to become a thing of the past now there is nothing wrong with running 12 except for box fill...thats a good point....14/3 for smokes is good...so please stop treating me like im an idiot...


You go ahead and fun with that 12. Really no big deal. It will be your first and last house other than your own or your family.


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## rexowner (Apr 12, 2008)

drewnasty said:


> I agree , stupid to have own circuit for smoke detectors but inspectors have poped me once or twice and every new house I have seen in so cal has breakers on own circuit


Do you mean smoke detectors on own circuit? California Electrical
Code has nothing to that effect. E.g. Cupertino requires them to be on
same circuit as bed lights. Is there something local down there?










I really think this is some inspector thinking Art 760 applies
to smoke detectors, and they are just wrong.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

D3UCE said:


> Yes.....thats what it is.......every new house in AZ has been wired wrong....please.....do teach us...Master...Just because you overdue something doesnt mean its wrong it just means you exceeded expectations if its costing me more money thats my deal and the HO who asks for it....14 gauge is starting to become a thing of the past now there is nothing wrong with running 12 except for box fill...thats a good point....14/3 for smokes is good...so please stop treating me like im an idiot...


OK... I will put it this way to you... if this job went out to bid here on Long Island... you would never get the job.. unless making $8.00 an hour looks good to you..

You are doing things that raises the material and labor rate for no good of a reason that I can see....


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

drewnasty said:


> I am always required to run all my smokies with 14-3 on dedicated circuit so when one goes off they all go off


Running 14/3 is totally different than installing a dedicated circuit.


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## 3xdad (Jan 25, 2011)

D3UCE said:


> Hello....I am about to rewire a house which was completely gutted so all wiring and devices will be new....the issue I'm having is I don't have a strong residential background and don't know how to distribute my circuits....here is what I had in mind......bed 1, bed 2, bed 3, bath 1, bath 2, smokes, living 1, living 2, 2 kitchen small app. circuits, disposal, dishwasher, range, W/H, washer, dryer, garage, AC 1, AC 2,....all will be done in 12awg. So I would like to know if it would be alright if each bedroom was on one circuit both the lighting and outlets....being that now the lighting must also be on an AFCI. I don't care about overdoing i rather be above code than border. . Thanks for all your help.....


What you have here sounds good to me. Don't forget dining room, pantry or similiar must be supplied by a SABC also. Your dish and disp. can be a 12/3 MWBC if you want & no GFCI. Garage 18" AFF and all GFCI. Etc. Etc. 



D3UCE said:


> Im sorry I didnt think I had to specify that the dryer, range, ac, etc....were going to be in 10awg, 8awg,.......


We knew what you meant.:thumbsup:



D3UCE said:


> I am going to do 15amp breakers and just run 12/2 price is not that big of a difference if the owner ever wanted to he can replace breaker and devices himself the wire will already be there.


Homeowner won't have to change the devices. The 15A duplexes are fine on a 20.



D3UCE said:


> In AZ every new home ive been to the smokes are on their own 15amp circuit....


Be sure to check your local code amends as this may be the case.


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

We don't have any local amendments here but I swear I have seen in print where the smokes have to be on a common lighting circuit.
wish I could remember where.
We always install them on the master bedroom lighting circuit when we can. I don't do new construction but we have to retrofit on our remodels and additions.


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## KGN742003 (Apr 23, 2012)

I added smokes in my house and put them on a circuit. If I ever need to feed a ceiling fan or whatever I can just pull the power off the nearest smoke detector.

So, what do you all do when you have to feed each smoke from the circuit in that particular bedroom? Run a 14-2 between all and then feed each one separately?

When I did alot of new resi, we just fed it from a bedroom at one end of the house, ran 14-3 between and dropped it in the basement on an octagon with the doorbell transformer.


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## ce2two (Oct 4, 2008)

I think this guy needs to be a helper on this JOB, taking direction from someone who has wired homes in the past and in the present..:thumbup:


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## rexowner (Apr 12, 2008)

KGN742003 said:


> I added smokes in my house and put them on a circuit. If I ever need to feed a ceiling fan or whatever I can just pull the power off the nearest smoke detector.
> 
> So, what do you all do when you have to feed each smoke from the circuit in that particular bedroom? Run a 14-2 between all and then feed each one separately?
> 
> When I did alot of new resi, we just fed it from a bedroom at one end of the house, ran 14-3 between and dropped it in the basement on an octagon with the doorbell transformer.


I don't understand your question. The 14-3 between smokes carries
power. Connect one to the bedroom lighting circuit, and the 14-3 between
smokes means they are on the same circuit. Sounds like what you
used to do, but instead of the doorbell, just connected the lite
circuit. All the smoke detectors have power -- you could add
a ceiling fan in precisely the same way you are talking about.


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## BurtiElectric (Jan 11, 2011)

You should just run # 10 for all the circuits, it's better. Run #2 SER for the range it's better.


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## 3xdad (Jan 25, 2011)

rexowner said:


> Do you mean smoke detectors on own circuit? California Electrical
> Code has nothing to that effect. E.g. Cupertino requires them to be on
> same circuit as bed lights. Is there something local down there?
> 
> ...


Rex, the part you underlined is about a single smokie. i'm curious what the next sentence says. Thanks.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

D3UCE said:


> Yes.....thats what it is.......every new house in AZ has been wired wrong....please.....do teach us...Master...Just because you overdue something doesnt mean its wrong it just means you exceeded expectations if its costing me more money thats my deal and the HO who asks for it...*.14 gauge is starting to become a thing of the past now* there is nothing wrong with running 12 except for box fill...thats a good point....14/3 for smokes is good...so please stop treating me like im an idiot...





D3UCE said:


> Hello....I am about to rewire a house which was completely gutted so all wiring and devices will be new...*.the issue I'm having is I don't have a strong residential background and don't know how to distribute my circuits*....here is what I had in mind......bed 1, bed 2, bed 3, bath 1, bath 2, smokes, living 1, living 2, 2 kitchen small app. circuits, disposal, dishwasher, range, W/H, washer, dryer, garage, AC 1, AC 2,....all will be done in 12awg. So I would like to know if it would be alright if each bedroom was on one circuit both the lighting and outlets....being that now the lighting must also be on an AFCI. I don't care about overdoing i rather be above code than border. . Thanks for all your help.....


On what planet is 14 gauge a thing of the past in residential, and if you don't have a strong residential background, how the heck would you know? This site is full of guys experienced in residential wiring and you are arguing with them over advice and recommendations, when we are just trying to set you straight. Pretty sure I have seen pictures of 220/221 running 14awg in houses in Arizona, so where do you come up with such stupid comments? That defies all logic, as the cost of commodities such as copper continue to rise over the years, so in fact, 14 is getting MORE common, not less. 

I'll stop treating you like an idiot when you stop treating me like one, savvy? Jeeze.


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## rexowner (Apr 12, 2008)

3xdad said:


> Rex, the part you underlined is about a single smokie. i'm curious what the next sentence says. Thanks.


Here is the verbage for the next sentence:


> In dwellings where two or more smoke detectors are required they shall be
> interconnected in such a manner that actuation of one shall cause actuation of all detectors in the dwelling
> unit.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

3xdad said:


> Rex, the part you underlined is about a single smokie.


Not at all. It specifically refers to them in the first sentence in the plural tense.


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## rexowner (Apr 12, 2008)

BurtiElectric said:


> You should just run # 10 for all the circuits, it's better. Run #2 SER for the range it's better.


Minimum of Cat 7, single mode fiber and Tri-axial cable to all low 
voltage outlets, plus smurf tube for future upgrades.


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## BurtiElectric (Jan 11, 2011)

rexowner said:


> Minimum of Cat 7, single mode fiber and Tri-axial cable to all low
> voltage outlets, plus smurf tube for future upgrades.


Don't forget o run a super neutral to avoid harmonics. 200 amp service run 2- 4/0 and a 750 neutral


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

If 12 is better then my 4/0 to devices is GREAT!!!! Box fill, bull crap, bigger wire trumps box fill. I wonder if I ran 250 MCM to microwave, then I could wire it 240....


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

backstay said:


> If 12 is better then my 4/0 to devices is GREAT!!!! Box fill, bull crap, bigger wire trumps box fill. I wonder if I ran 250 MCM to microwave, then I could wire it 240....


If you run it at 277 it will cook hotdogs in 10 seconds.


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## D-Bo (Apr 15, 2012)

Going_Commando said:


> If you run it at 277 it will cook hotdogs in 10 seconds.


It's actually 3 seconds...they explode at 10 seconds on 277


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

backstay said:


> If 12 is better then my 4/0 to devices is GREAT!!!! Box fill, bull crap, bigger wire trumps box fill. I wonder if I ran 250 MCM to microwave, then I could wire it 240....


My Microwave is wired 240 volt. 30 amp 240 volt. Seriously


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

sbrn33 said:


> My Microwave is wired 240 volt. 30 amp 240 volt. Seriously


GE Advantium circa 2002?
Installed quite a few of those.


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## D-Bo (Apr 15, 2012)

sbrn33 said:


> My Microwave is wired 240 volt. 30 amp 240 volt. Seriously


What's the hdpm on that bad ass. Hot dogs per minute that is


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## kevink1955 (Apr 25, 2012)

Back in 1980 when I built my own house my little village had a local amendent requireing 12ga minimum as the wire GA. 

The house was a precut package (stick framed) with all materials delivered in 3 40' trailers, they also provided all plans ready to be submited to the building dept.

Mine came back marked up with the 12GA minimun so thats what we did, looked strange at the time as most of the breakers in the supplyed panel were 15A.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

What the hell is this retardedness? :laughing:

-14 is not not a thing of the past. 

I build industrial and utility facilities and I don't even subscribe to that 12 minimum crap, I'll pull 14 wherever, whenever possible.

-I don't know of anything in any of the adopted codes here that would require a dedicated circuit for smokes. Doing so with the AFCI requirements and the associated added costs is a poor design choice.


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## Neoursa (Sep 22, 2012)

I see the logic in saving $ putting the smokes on lighting, but I've always done them on their own dedicated circuit. Specifically to prevent things like fans and lights to be added on later potentially severing the interconnect.
But I even take the 14/3 and spray paint it red before pulling it. I don't want anything else on that line, aside from security devices.

I guess to save money on an afci you could tie into a break AT THE PANEL but nowhere else. Keep my 14/3 red cable intact.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

I like to run my smokes with MI cable, inside RMC with malleable boxes, then get concrete guys to encase the RMC in concrete. 

Wasting as much of the clients coin as possible to satisfy any and all what if scenarios :thumbup::laughing:


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

I like to put every smoke detector on its own circuit. The house we just finished had 15 of them. I put each smoke detector on its own 20 amp breaker. Wired it with #12 . I had to install an extra load center just for smokes! !


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Neoursa said:


> I see the logic in saving $ putting the smokes on lighting, but I've always done them on their own dedicated circuit. Specifically to prevent things like fans and lights to be added on later potentially severing the interconnect.
> But I even take the 14/3 and spray paint it red before pulling it. I don't want anything else on that line, aside from security devices.
> 
> I guess to save money on an afci you could tie into a break AT THE PANEL but nowhere else. Keep my 14/3 red cable intact.


This is more crazy talk... but if it floats your boat... cast away!!..:no:


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## Aegis (Mar 18, 2011)

Here's some reasons for running #12.

Voltage drop, is this house really long?

Bigger gauge, less heat.

Upgradability, for future 20A.

You're running conduit and you have to derate.

You like the color yellow.

You don't know what you're doing so go overboard to be safe.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Neoursa said:


> *I see the logic *in saving $ putting the smokes on lighting, but I've always done them on their own dedicated circuit. Specifically to prevent things like fans and lights to be added on later potentially severing the interconnect.
> But I even take the 14/3 and spray paint it red before pulling it. I don't want anything else on that line, aside from security devices.
> 
> I guess to save money on an afci you could tie into a break AT THE PANEL but nowhere else. Keep my 14/3 red cable intact.


There is NO logic in anything written there.


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## denny3992 (Jul 12, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> That's stupid.


Why is it stupid? My rational is so they dont get left turned off! If theyre on with lights ull know they are off!


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## denny3992 (Jul 12, 2010)

Same here


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

denny3992 said:


> Why is it stupid? My rational is so they dont get left turned off! If theyre on with lights ull know they are off!


I agree with you. His way is stupid.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> I like to put every smoke detector on its own circuit. The house we just finished had 15 of them. I put each smoke detector on its own 20 amp breaker. Wired it with #12 . I had to install an extra load center just for smokes! !


:laughing::laughing:

Awesome, I love this forum.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

D3UCE said:


> 14 gauge is starting to become a thing of the past now




WTF are you talking about?



> there is nothing wrong with running 12 except for box fill..


And wasting money .........




> so please stop treating me like im an idiot...


Stop saying idiotic things.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

What if your kid gets killed on a branch circuit wired in #12? You have to live with the fact that you increased the amount of available fault current ...


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Well, this has been fun.


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