# Should An Apprentice Wireman Stay With One Shop



## Potential11 (Nov 14, 2011)

Should an apprentice wireman stay with one shop his entire apprenticeship?


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Same rules apply to any other job you may have...

If you are happy.. boss treats you fairly and has plenty of work... why leave for a job where you know nothing about the working conditions..

Grass isn't always greener on the other side... it might be Astro Turf..


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

Potential11 said:


> Should an apprentice wireman stay with one shop his entire apprenticeship?


sure, why not


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

If it is up to you, stay if you are happy. While moving around might give you a more diverse set of experiences, there is a lot to be said about steady work.


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## sopranocaponyc (Nov 24, 2008)

Potential11 said:


> Should an apprentice wireman stay with one shop his entire apprenticeship?


here in NYC for Local 3 IBEW, apprentices change shops once a year. there are exceptions If an Apprentice gets a bad layoff(from to many days missed) they go to the union hall and get a new shop. For an apprentice to get a bad layoff is bad, no matter if you had valid reasons, i.e. you were sick and had doctors notes. After you get your new shop you will then have to report to the union for what we call the "Friday night Club" these select members have to show there pay stubs showing a full weeks work due to the layoff. If you get a 2nd bad layoff in less than a year you go to the super Friday night club which is one foot in and one foot out.

I feel an Apprentice can gain much needed experience by changing shops each year. one year you can work for a small shop, another time a large shop and so on and so on.

When I was in the union back in 02-03 My 1st shop was a small shop and at 1st the job was good. Then I got stuck on a deck job at Randall's Island with this douche bag doing Johnson controls. This guy was the worst. You talk about by the book. you late 10 mins and he reports you. Now I know being on work on time is important. but to get to randells Island with out a car requires taking(I live in Queens near Queens Village) the E train from 1st stop to 53 and Lex, then go upstairs to switch to the 6 to 125 st in Harlem then take a bus. total travel time is one hour to one and half hours. Its hard when you work and school. but that's the job we chose.

I've also had the great experience of working for one of the biggest and greatest shops, ADCO ELEC Downtown near Wall St. That job was sweet. lots of guys and I learned a lot. The travel time less than 40 mins. LIRR from Hollis to Penn st, then 2/3 exp to Wall st(which ook about 7 mins) I had a 745am start time I got on the 643am LIRR Hemstead train from my house(which is less than a half a block away) and was in NYC by 715am enough time for a cup of coffee(before Krieg coffee came out) and on the job site by 730AM.

The whole point of being an Apprentice, is to gain lots of experience through various jobs, shops and school.


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## Potential11 (Nov 14, 2011)

sopranocaponyc said:


> here in NYC for Local 3 IBEW, apprentices change shops once a year. there are exceptions If an Apprentice gets a bad layoff(from to many days missed) they go to the union hall and get a new shop. For an apprentice to get a bad layoff is bad, no matter if you had valid reasons, i.e. you were sick and had doctors notes. After you get your new shop you will then have to report to the union for what we call the "Friday night Club" these select members have to show there pay stubs showing a full weeks work due to the layoff. If you get a 2nd bad layoff in less than a year you go to the super Friday night club which is one foot in and one foot out.
> 
> I feel an Apprentice can gain much needed experience by changing shops each year. one year you can work for a small shop, another time a large shop and so on and so on.
> 
> ...


Thanks Brother for the advice. 

I have heard about Local Unions that offer changing shops for apprentices after a certain period of 6 months or a year as you described in NYC. Not in Los Angeles. And you can't quit contractor. Or else. You know what I mean.


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## uconduit (Jun 6, 2012)

IIRC my local had this thing where if -- in January -- you worked at the same place for more than a year as an apprentice they would rotate you to another contractor. so in theory you wouldn't be able to stay with the same company for more than 12-23 months, but after the economy started getting bad they stopped rotating apprentices. 

Is it a good idea to stay in one company for your entire apprenticeship? No. 

I didn't touch any cable larger than 12 gauge (or any light switches or receptacles) for my first two years because I was working controls. Then it was mostly 1250 mcm and 6" conduit on another job after that. So if you only work at one company you might not get the experience at different electrician tasks and work environments. In this career you might be working at a mini-mall with 3-4 people or an industrial area with 3-4 thousand other construction workers.


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## MollyHatchet29 (Jan 24, 2012)

In my program, we're forced to rotate yearly, but in 5th year, we pick our contractor. Sometimes, it just plain sucks and reminds me of being in the Army again. However, it's necessary to gain more experience. From a personal standpoint, I'd rather stay where I'm at. They're my family.. Goodbyes can be hard, but that's life I guess.


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## angryceltic (Feb 21, 2012)

MollyHatchet29 said:


> In my program, we're forced to rotate yearly, but in 5th year, we pick our contractor. Sometimes, it just plain sucks and reminds me of being in the Army again. However, it's necessary to gain more experience. From a personal standpoint, I'd rather stay where I'm at. They're my family.. Goodbyes can be hard, but that's life I guess.


Wow, that does suck. I love where I'm at. Wouldnt leave even if they fired me lol.


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## MollyHatchet29 (Jan 24, 2012)

angryceltic said:


> Wow, that does suck. I love where I'm at. Wouldnt leave even if they fired me lol.


Yea, me too. If I could say, "eff you guys, I'm staying", I would. But then I'd get kicked out of the program. Haha... Friggin' rules.


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## angryceltic (Feb 21, 2012)

MollyHatchet29 said:


> Yea, me too. If I could say, "eff you guys, I'm staying", I would. But then I'd get kicked out of the program. Haha... Friggin' rules.


My program (open shop) requires us to attend class on 26 Saturdays a year. Sept to may, and raises every 6 months based on grades. I have 2 years left as we get our license after 8,000 hrs and our 600 classroom. Schools free but a requirement to work on prevailing wage jobs as well as being registered with the state.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

eejack said:


> If it is up to you, stay if you are happy. While moving around might give you a more diverse set of experiences, there is a lot to be said about steady work.


Good advice.

To some extent each electrician needs to be diverse in more than one part of our trade. On the other hand, having a steady paycheck at a good company is more than alot of Americans have right now. 

Don't be afraid of change, and embrace learning new things. But also remember sometimes its best to be content until the right opportunity presents itself.


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

Always keep an eye out. I've moved around a lot during my apprentice years. I used to think running conduit was the $hit, now I couldn't care any less for it.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Transferring shops gives the apprentice a wider range of experience (IN THEROY). I think it is an excellent program and think it broadens the apprentice experience.


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## Potential11 (Nov 14, 2011)

brian john said:


> Transferring shops gives the apprentice a wider range of experience (IN THEROY). I think it is an excellent program and think it broadens the apprentice experience.



Why don't all locals subscribe to that theory?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Potential11 said:


> Why don't all locals subscribe to that theory?


No work?
Not Enough Contractors?
No foresight?
Contractors don't want it?


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## Potential11 (Nov 14, 2011)

brian john said:


> No work?
> Not Enough Contractors?
> No foresight?
> Contractors don't want it?


Being its L.A. I'd say its the last option.


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## jordan_paul (Oct 4, 2011)

It depends on the shop IMO. The shop I've been working for for the past two years is a small service shop and I'm the only apprentice there working with 8 j-men. Every day I do something new from control, to motor installs, to troubleshooting, to pipe bending, to resi romex and scepter, to commerical BX and EMT to industrial teck and ridgid. I've worked in factories on robots, automated lines, wired houses, worked in sewage treatment plants, barns, open pit mines, municipal dumps, stadiums, theaters, parking garages, scrap steal yards, glass recycling factories, aparptment buildings and million dollar homes. I've worked on every system out there, 120v, 240v, 208v, 347v, 480v, 600v, 13.8kv, 14.2kv and 27.6kv (mostly sub station and switchgear maintence) and weird European voltages on printing presses at a manufacturing plant. I hold a key to the shop and a work van and run small jobs.

You know what I did in 8 months on a big job? Bent pipe, pushed a broom and counted material. I'm willing to put my knowledge as a low hour third year (just got it :thumbup against any 4th or 5th year, and maybe even some j-men who only work for companies doing big jobs. If you can find a small company who will keep you as an apprentice you're golden.


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

Potential11 said:


> Being its L.A. I'd say its the last option.


More than likely. 

I was at my first shop 9 years. We had 350 electricians, and did anything and everything. When the old man retired, I was the last man standing. If he had not retired, I'd still be there.


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

jordan_paul said:


> If you can find a small company who will keep you as an apprentice you're golden.


So long as they don't exploit your eagerness to pay you poorly.

If you got opportunity and good pay I'd say by the sounds of it you got a winner.


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

Potential11 said:


> Should an apprentice wireman stay with one shop his entire apprenticeship?


Local 130 does not allow this. You will work in three shops.


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

Couldn't be prouder of Soprano! Great job of explaining what we do!

:thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

We do what we do, as Soprano touched upon, to help the Apprentice get a well rounded experience base. That is the number one reason. However there are other reasons as well. What we find when an Apprentice is not rotated (and it does happen), is that the Apprentice becomes used in ways for which he is not hired. For example...that Apprentice is now driving a van making deliveries, that Apprentice is now working alone in electrical closets or on another floor of a building alone without supervision. Worst case scenario is that the Apprentice begins to "believe" that the shop he/she currently works for is the "right" or "only" way to do things. Even worse than that, the Apprentice believes the propaganda from the PM, owners, or whoever...that if you leave that shop, you will undoubtedly be treated worse, work on crappier jobs, and that if they stay...that contractor will "keep you". That defeats the purpose of giving a rounded experience base and corrupts the mind and often work ethic of the Apprentice. 

The bottom line here gentlemen is that your Local *is the party that manages your employment*. The contractor you work for is basically renting you from that Local. This is especially important to know when it comes to Apprentices...as no Local...and I do mean NO Local...wants their Apprentices to be more loyal to one individual contractor over themselves. No disrespect to any owners here...(lol you know who you are BJ...lol), but to the IO and the individual Local....loyalty is a pretty big issue. Concerning Apprentices...the minute the individual local sees that an Apprentice has more loyalty to their contractor than the Local...it's a fast track to a rotation. There is what we call "tempered loyalty"...which to us here basically means self responsibility. Being loyal to ones contractor is one thing, and especially important for Supervision...but it has to be tempered with the self responsibility to know where your bread is buttered. We have all seen some of the biggest contractors go out of business. Ultimately it's the Local that will provide you with your work opportunity. Apprentices are impressionable creatures, and if they're not shown that there ARE other ways of doing things, shown that the Local will in fact get them a job in another shop...they will believe the hype for lack of a better word...that their present contractor IS all that and a bag of chips...and their future success revolves around loyalty to them.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

icefalkon said:


> We do what we do, as Soprano touched upon, to help the Apprentice get a well rounded experience base. That is the number one reason. However there are other reasons as well. What we find when an Apprentice is not rotated (and it does happen), *is that the Apprentice becomes used in ways for which he is not hired. For example...that Apprentice is now driving a van making deliveries, * *1 that Apprentice is now working alone in electrical closets or on another floor of a building alone without supervision. *Worst case scenario is that the Apprentice begins to "believe" that the shop he/she currently works for is the "right" or "only" way to do things. Even worse than that, the Apprentice believes the propaganda from the PM, owners, or whoever...that if you leave that shop, you will undoubtedly be treated worse, work on crappier jobs, and that if they stay...that contractor will "keep you". That defeats the purpose of giving a rounded experience base and corrupts the mind and often work ethic of the Apprentice.* *2
> 
> *The bottom line here gentlemen is that your Local owns you*. *3 The contractor you work for is basically renting you from that Local. This is especially important to know when it comes to Apprentices...as no Local...and I do mean NO Local...w*ants their Apprentices to be more loyal to one individual contractor over themselves*.*4 No disrespect to any owners here...(lol you know who you are BJ...lol), but to the IO and the individual Local....loyalty is a pretty big issue. Concerning Apprentices...the minute the individual local sees that an Apprentice has more loyalty to their contractor than the Local...it's a fast track to a rotation. There is what we call "tempered loyalty"...which to us here basically means self responsibility. Being loyal to ones contractor is one thing, and especially important for Supervision...but it has to be tempered with the self responsibility to know where your bread is buttered. We have all seen some of the biggest contractors go out of business. Ultimately it's the Local that will provide you with your work opportunity. Apprentices are impressionable creatures, and if they're not shown that there ARE other ways of doing things, shown that the Local will in fact get them a job in another shop...they will believe the hype for lack of a better word...that their present contractor IS all that and a bag of chips...and their future success revolves around loyalty to them.


*1- At some point all our apprentices drive delivery trucks, it would kill a small shop to operate any different.
*2- Many of our apprentices return after their last rotation wanting to return because of the RIGHT way we do approach work and long time employment.
*3- Owns you? I understand what you are trying to say but OWNS YOU, sounds a bit slavish. 
*4- I want, need and expect loyal employees anything less and you can go back to the hall.


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

No one owns me. Never has never will.


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

brian john said:


> *1- At some point all our apprentices drive delivery trucks, it would kill a small shop to operate any different.
> *2- Many of our apprentices return after their last rotation wanting to return because of the RIGHT way we do approach work and long time employment.
> *3- Owns you? I understand what you are trying to say but OWNS YOU, sounds a bit slavish.
> *4- I want, need and expect loyal employees anything less and you can go back to the hall.


Brian...you know what I meant...come on now. 

*1.* I owned a shop as well. Of course every apprentice has and SHOULD drive the truck every now and then. That is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about a shop using an apprentice SOLELY as their means of delivering checks, material, and paperwork to jobsites. 

*2.* Damn straight about Apprentices returning to good shops! That my friend is how it should be! I'm a huge proponent of guys sticking with one shop...I've said that many times here. I wasn't talking about YOUR shop BTW.

*3.* I meant it rhetorically Brian...it was the point, not the details.

*4.* Every single owner, in every city, in every trade expects and wants loyalty like that. That's how we weed out the keepers from the toss backs. Part of my demeanor is personal responsibility. Each of the 5 owners I've been employed by in 26yrs will tell you the same thing. No matter that I teach for the IBEW...I am a loyal shop guy. That's something we have been trying to teach guys in their last 2yrs of the Apprenticeship. Be loyal to your contractor IF he treats you good. Once a person has enough experience to know whether he's being treated good or not is one thing. But to blindly believe it because he has only been in the Apprenticeship for a few years...or came in organized and doesn't know any better is a completely different matter. That's what I was speaking about. I think you know that as well. 

You're a NECA contractor...can you honestly tell me that your compatriots all treat their Apprentices above board? We have 248 signatory contractors here in NYC and I can say without a doubt (from experience) that maybe 10% of them are as good as they believe they are. (How...when I've only worked at 5 shops? Well...I teach seminars to our NECA Chapter as well and have a good relationship with a good number of owners.) Networking. 

How does one determine if a shop guy is to be believed when he says..oh this is the best gig in town?

Experience...that's how. Has the guy telling you this ever even worked anywhere else? You and I both know that happens a lot. You end up with a journeyman who's very loyal...but every single owner knows (whether they want to admit it or not) but who's experience is completely limited to the work that's your bread and butter.

I...personally now...don't get crazy on me...I personally don't think it's ethical to deny an Apprentice his ability to work in different aspects of the industry to grow his experience base. If / when he returns to you at a later date...and THEN says...wow Mr. John...this was the best shop I ever worked for....to me...I would find that exponentially more rewarding. Knowing that this human left your tutelage, saw the world, and then came back willing to give you 200% because now he KNOWS how crappy "some" contractors can be to work for...that's what I call *justifiable *loyalty...not *blind *loyalty.


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

nolabama said:


> No one owns me. Never has never will.


Again...don't read more into it than was meant guys. Who hands out the job tickets, who gives you continuing education, who handles your medical benefits, etc, etc, etc. 

It wasn't meant in a "slavery" sense. I was in error for phrasing it in a way that some find offensive. I apologize to any who find it that way and will fix the sentence now.


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

There...fixed...I hope that takes care of any misunderstandings.


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