# Protecting NM



## subelect (Nov 25, 2007)

I had to replace/correct an A/C unit disco that the HVAC guys installed on a new house.
Inspector opened it up and found that they had not attached any type of a romex connector to the back of the disco, just shoved it thru the KO.
Plus, with the changes to the place, we had to install a GFCI outlet to meet the 25'.
I don't know if my company is being excessive or not, but I thought that passing NM thru an outside wall would require a sleeve, not a romex connector. 
Anyway, I put it in a short piece of 3/4 inch sked 80 w/ TAs and bushings on each end.
Legally, could you just use a romex on the end of the wire and call it good or do you need to use a sleeve?
thanks.


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## jwelectric (Sep 28, 2008)

In order to follow the letter of the code NM cable cannot penatrate the exterior at all.

To comply with the letter of the code one would have to set a junction box and install a raceway with one to the conductors outlined in 310.8 to the disconnect.

To answer you question about a sleeve see 312.5(C)


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

subelect said:


> Legally, could you just use a romex on the end of the wire and call it good or do you need to use a sleeve?


This is one of the few places I disagree with JW. 

All I have ever done is run the NM cable right into the back of an outdoor enclosure with the proper NM connector, with the enclosure back sealed from the weather.
IMO the cable never leaves a dry location. The wet location does not start until you are actually outside the structure. So if you are going right from the structure into the inside of an electrical enclosure you are always dry.


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## jwelectric (Sep 28, 2008)

Speedy Petey said:


> This is one of the few places I disagree with JW.





Speedy Petey said:


> All I have ever done is run the NM cable right into the back of an outdoor enclosure with the proper NM connector, with the enclosure back sealed from the weather.
> IMO the cable never leaves a dry location. The wet location does not start until you are actually outside the structure. So if you are going right from the structure into the inside of an electrical enclosure you are always dry.




It is okay to disagree with me and I love it when I am proven wrong as it means that I have learned something. 

Although I myself always use a connector and install NM to the back of a disconnect for an outside installation the code itself states that the disconnect is in a wet location thus making the NM cable in a wet location. This is just like the flex used to the AC unit is in a wet location and NM cable would be in a wet location which is not allowed

If that is not enough let’s look at 300.6(D) and 312.2 which calls for a ¼ airspace behind the enclosure which leaves the cable exposed to the elements.


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

For nm cable I have always used a small nipple of emt with a bushing for boxes surface mounted outside, for anything like an a/c disco with a SE or SER, I don't use the above mentioned nipple.


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## jfwfmt (Jul 5, 2008)

UF is the cable meant for this application. NM-B and the wires it contains are not rated 
for wet locations, UF is.

/s/ Jim WIlliams


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

I have always seen NM connected through the back of a disconnect and cannot think of anytimes this has been turned down.

Though when I did my house I did nipple through to a box and terminated MC to the box.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

jfwfmt said:


> UF is the cable meant for this application. NM-B and the wires it contains are not rated
> for wet locations, UF is.
> 
> /s/ Jim WIlliams


Point is this is NOT a wet location. 
Tell me where the cable will get wet.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

You can argue a few good points on each side as to whether the NEC considers the inside of an outdoor enclosure a wet location or not, but think about this.... find me one jurisdiction on this planet that requires UF cable into the back of surface mounted outdoor enclosures. Find me one contractor who does this as part of his normal practice. Fact is, this simply doesn't happen, so the consensus of inspectors and installers is that it simply isn't required. If the inside of a NEMA 3R rated enclosure is getting wet, it's defective by some means. After all, we don't mount "wet location breakers" in these same enclosures.

As far as connectors go, there is a connector required. On that point there is no doubt. Some installers favor one of those blue snap-in knockout bushings (which probably isn't a compliant use of this bushing), but I use the flush NM connectors, such as the "black button" type connectors.


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## jwelectric (Sep 28, 2008)

Speedy Petey said:


> Point is this is NOT a wet location.
> Tell me where the cable will get wet.


 
Petey 

It is not a matter of what and when something is going to get wet the point is just where is the location.

Is it outside?

If the answer to that question is yes then look at the definition of wet location.

Location, Wet. Installations underground or in concrete slabs or masonry in direct contact with the earth; in locations subject to saturation with water or other liquids, such as vehicle washing areas; and in unprotected locations exposed to weather.

It is the location that makes it a code violation to install NM cable into the back of an enclosure installed outside.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

jwelectric said:


> Location, Wet. Installations underground or in concrete slabs or masonry in direct contact with the earth; in locations subject to saturation with water or other liquids, such as vehicle washing areas; and in unprotected locations exposed to weather.


That location is protected by the NEMA 3R enclosure, and is therefore not wet. If it were a wet location, we would not be able to install the variety of non-wet location devices inside 3R enclosures such as molded case circuit breakers, contactors, switches, and receptacles.


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## jwelectric (Sep 28, 2008)

MDShunk said:


> That location is protected by the NEMA 3R enclosure, and is therefore not wet. If it were a wet location, we would not be able to install the variety of non-wet location devices inside 3R enclosures such as molded case circuit breakers, contactors, switches, and receptacles.


 No No my friend, The NEMA 3R is located in a wet location so any and every thing inside is also in the same location.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

jwelectric said:


> No No my friend, The NEMA 3R is located in a wet location so any and every thing inside is also in the same location.


In a rainstorm, my house is located in a wet location, but everything inside it is dry. Mike, reconcile the placement of non-wet location devices and equipment inside of NEMA 3R enclosures with your theory. Further reconcile the fact that no jurisdiction in our great country will enforce this as you suggest it should be enforced. They make NEMA 3R rated switchgear for primary, and the introduction of water to the interior would be catastrophic.


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

jwelectric said:


> No No my friend, The NEMA 3R is located in a wet location so any and every thing inside is also in the same location.


I hope you never become an inspector, because I would punch you out before I complied with that red tag.:laughing:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

I think Mike's point is (correct me if I am wrong) the area between the back of the NEMA 3R enclosure and the structure the NEMA 3R is mounted on is outside. The 1/4-1/2 maybe but if a connector is used the NM is inside.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

Bkessler said:


> I hope you never become an inspector, because I would punch you out before I complied with that red tag.:laughing:


That would fix the problem. :jester:

Anyway, I agree with Marc. Cables coming out of the house [NM specifically] can go through the wall and into the 3R enclosure, they just cant continue out of the encosure in a conduit. At that point they would need to be converted to THWN for example.

If we are wrong, why isnt every surface mount meter combo red tagged? All I see soming into those things are the NM homeruns. On a new installation, I have never seen the NM's enter into a j-box on the inside of the house, changeover to THWN and then nipple into the back of a 3R enclosure.

~Matt


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## jwelectric (Sep 28, 2008)

Bless your hearts I know that you all know better.

A 3R enclosure is approved for what kind of location?

Could it be for out door use?

Does it provide a degree of protection from rain, snow and sleet?

Would these be a wet location?

(B) Types NM and NMS. Types NM and NMS cables shall not be used under the following conditions or in the following locations: 
 (4) In wet or damp locations

If the enclosure is in a Wet Location then everything inside that enclosure that is in the wet location is going to be in the same Location is it not?

Just because we do something and the inspectors pass us for it in no way means that it is code compliant. We drive a couple of miles over the posted speed limit and pass law enforcement all the time without getting a ticket also but that does not mean that we aren’t breaking the law does it?

I have already admitted that I make the installation of outside disconnects with NM cable myself but that does not mean that it would be the correct answer on a test either.

The original question was what would be code compliant not what does every body do. The legal answer is that NM cable can not exit the exterior of the building at all.

As to the meter combo there is but one compliant way to install one. Yes it will require the use of a junction box as NM cable can not exit the building as well as the requirement for the cables to be secured to the enclosure see 312.5(C) 
Although there have been many different types of installations made with these panels from a SE connector installed through the back to conduit bodies being installed all are a violation of 312.5(C).


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

The 3R enclosure is in the wet location. All the stuff inside it is in a dry location. Much the same way that my house is in a wet location, but all the stuff inside it is in a dry location. 

Mike, you must know you're way out in left field, with not a single inspector or installer who would ever actually agree with your theory as an installation method. Change to UF for everything that goes in the back of a 3R enclosure? Crazy talk. This is the stuff people in classrooms pontificate about, but people who actually put this stuff in know what's what.

Find me a wet location molded case circuit breaker to put in a 3R rated panel, will ya?


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## itsunclebill (Jan 16, 2007)

:blink:I don't see where NM-B is restricted to use inside. It is to be used in NORMALLY dry locations, and where not subject to EXCESSIVE moisture or dampness. (2005 NEC)

The only thing preventing NM-B being installed outside would be the definitions of NORMALLY and EXCESSIVE. Absent definitions for either in the NEC: normally is defined as a condition you would expect to find more often than not, excessive is defined as beyond reasonable. Given the wording in the NEC pertaining to NM-B and prohibited uses, it looks like outside use not exposed to sunlight where the cable doesn't lay in water or continuously have moisture dripping on it would be OK. 
Frankly, I don't see anything that would prohibit running NM-B on the underside of outside eves where not exposed to sunlight. 

I'd also have to offer that if breakers, bussbars, and meter contacts not listed for wet locations are used in outside panels that the enclosure meets the criteria for normally dry and doesn't harbor conditions of excessive moisture or dampness. A sleeve between any raintight or better enclosure and penetrating the siding of a structure would cover exposure to "excessive" moisture.

Thoughts?

In 2008 NEC NM-B is pretty much precluded from being used at all if taken to the letter as the humidity inside a building can easily match that outside, and as such would be defined as "damp", now a prohibited installation criteria. 

Colorado used to adopt the NEC statewide but this year we have jurisdictions electing to stick with the 2005 NEC just because of crap like this.


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## jwelectric (Sep 28, 2008)

I guess all these people are wrong also. 











It is the location not the exposure


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

jwelectric said:


> It is the location not the exposure


Right. Outdoors, wet. Inside the box, dry.


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## gilbequick (Oct 6, 2007)

OK so inside of that panel mounted on the outside of that house, are ALL of those homeruns in UF wire? Is there NO NM inside of that panel?

By the diagram you posted, the wet location is outside of the panel, not inside.



jwelectric said:


> I guess all these people are wrong also.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## jwelectric (Sep 28, 2008)

gilbequick said:


> OK so inside of that panel mounted on the outside of that house, are ALL of those homeruns in UF wire? Is there NO NM inside of that panel?
> 
> By the diagram you posted, the wet location is outside of the panel, not inside.


Is the panel in a wet location?

If the answer to this question then everything contain in that panel is in the same location as the panel.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

jwelectric said:


> If the answer to this question then everything contain in that panel is in the same location as the panel.


Great. Find me some wet location switches to mount in a Bell box. While you're at it, find me some wet location molded case circuit breakers. Oh, stand back far away from that high voltage switchgear. All the stuff inside it is in a wet location.


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## Adam12 (May 28, 2008)

334.12 (B) 4 

Type NM cables cannot be used under the following conditions or in the following locations.

#4 Where subject or *exposed* to excessive moisture or dampness.

Sounds like it will stay pretty dry in a disco or panel?
Leave the door closed when its raining and its ok. :jester:


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

I have installed some massive 3R cabinets that had nema1 panels panels on the inside, power and fire alarm. I guess that engineer is wrong as well.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

brian john said:


> I think Mike's point is (correct me if I am wrong) the area between the back of the NEMA 3R enclosure and the structure the NEMA 3R is mounted on is outside. The 1/4-1/2 maybe but if a connector is used the NM is inside.


 
Mike is this what you are talking about?

Are inspectors failing EC's for this practice in your area?


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## jwelectric (Sep 28, 2008)

brian john said:


> Mike is this what you are talking about?


 That is one of the violations as the cable is left exposed to the elements. Now some will argue that the connector protects the cable but I just can’t see where it would. Does NM cable connectors have some weather proof rating that I am unaware of?




brian john said:


> Are inspectors failing EC's for this practice in your area?


 Yes there are some inspectors in NC that have turned down NM cable installed in meter combos and yes the state backed the inspector in his findings. 

I know what common practice in the world is today but that is not the issue in question.
What is in question is this:


subelect said:


> Legally, could you just use a romex on the end of the wire and call it good or do you need to use a sleeve?





subelect said:


> thanks.


To answer the question one has to simply look at 334.12(B)(4) and the definition of “Location, Wet” in Article 100. 

Outside is a wet location and NM cable is not allowed to be installed in this location. It is not a matter of the type of raceway or enclosure that NM cable is installed with it is a question of the location itself. NM can not be installed in PVC conduit under a poured concrete pad to supply an island in a kitchen either. Why? It is the location. The first place mentioned in a wet location is underground. 
NM cable can not be installed in a Class I Division I location even if it is in Rigid Metallic Conduit. It again is the location. 

Being in a raceway or enclosure does not change the location it only changes the raceway or enclosure.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

What if the Safety Switch was caulked around the perimeter?


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

brian john said:


> What if the Safety Switch was caulked around the perimeter?


I generally slather up the connector before I place the enclosure onto the wall to bolt it fast.


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## jwelectric (Sep 28, 2008)

brian john said:


> What if the Safety Switch was caulked around the perimeter?





MDShunk said:


> I generally slather up the connector before I place the enclosure onto the wall to bolt it fast.


Neither changes the location. It is still outside and outside is a wet location and will require a conductor outlined in 310.8(C)


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

jwelectric said:


> Neither changes the location. It is still outside and outside is a wet location and will require a conductor outlined in 310.8(C)


So the vinyl siding changes the location in a much better way than silicone or a NEMA 3R enclosure does? This cable is not outside. It's in a box.


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## jwelectric (Sep 28, 2008)

MDShunk said:


> So the vinyl siding changes the location in a much better way than silicone or a NEMA 3R enclosure does? This cable is not outside. It's in a box.


The box is outside and the cable enters into this box that is in a location that the NM cable is not allowed, a wet location.

The inside of the box does not change the location. The box is installed in the location. The location stays the same with or without the box. It is the location not the box that does not allow the installation of NM cable.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

The house is installed in that wet location too.


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## jfwfmt (Jul 5, 2008)

[1] the location is either damp or wet:


Article 100; I. General:
Location, Damp. Locations protected from weather and not subject to saturation with water or other liquids but subject to moderate degrees of moisture. Examples of such locations include partially protected locations under canopies, marquees, roofed open porches, and like locations, and interior locations subject to moderate degrees of moisture, such as some basements, some barns, and some cold-storage warehouses.


Location, Wet. Installations underground or in concrete slabs or masonry in direct contact with the earth; in locations subject to saturation with water or other liquids, such as vehicle washing areas; and in unprotected locations exposed to weather.


[2] “raintight” (3R) does not exclude “wetting of live parts and wiring within the enclosure.” while “rainproof” (3S) does.


UL 2208 White Book; *ENCLOSURE CONSIDERATIONS FOR ALL EQUIPMENT*
In some cases, individual appliances and equipment may be marked
‘‘Raintight’’ or ‘‘Rainproof’’ indicating that they have been subjected to a​ test designed to simulate exposure to beating rain. For equipment designated​ as ‘‘Raintight’’ such exposure will not result in entrance of water. For​ equipment designated as ‘‘Rainproof’’ such exposure will not interfere with​ the operation of the apparatus or result in wetting of live parts and wiring​ within the enclosure.​ ​ [3] NM cable (and the conductors it contains) are not to be used in wet or damp locations.​ ​ NEC 2008; 334.12 Uses Not Permitted. (B) Types NM and NMS. ​ Types NM and NMS cables shall not be used under the following conditions or in the following locations: ​ ... (4) In wet or damp locations​ ​ [4] UF is permitted to be used in wet (damp) locations. It is explicitly allowed in place of NM cable.​ ​ 340.10 Uses Permitted.​ Type UF cable shall be permitted as follows: ​ ... (3) For wiring in wet, dry, or corrosive locations under the recognized wiring methods of this Code. ​ 

Installed as nonmetallic-sheathed cable. Where so installed, the installation and conductor requirements shall comply with Parts II and III of Article 334 and shall be of the multiconductor type.​
 ​ 340.112 Insulation.​ The conductors of Type UF shall be one of the moisture-resistant types listed in Table 310.13(A) that is suitable for branch-circuit wiring or one that is identified for such use. Where installed as a substitute wiring method for NM cable, the conductor insulation shall be rated 90°C (194°F).​ ​ /s/ Jim WIlliams​


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## jwelectric (Sep 28, 2008)

MDShunk said:


> The house is installed in that wet location too.


 
Yes you are correct but the NEC defines the interior as a dry location. It is the area outside that the NEC defines as a wet location


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

jwelectric said:


> Yes you are correct but the NEC defines the interior as a dry location. It is the area outside that the NEC defines as a wet location


I cannot agree with what you are saying Mike - otherwise, there could be NO 3R loadcenters outside. I have never seen a molded case circuit breaker rated for a wet location - have you?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

If the safety switch is completly caulked I think it could be argued that the NM in indoors, no different that a bay window cut into the side of a house, flashed and caulked.


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## jfwfmt (Jul 5, 2008)

NEMA 3R cabinets have an interesting design. If there is a conduit entrance on the top it is a threaded hub, that you could make up wrench tight and probably waterproof. Any other conduit entries are usually knockouts in the bottom or lower sides (and back). These knockouts are placed so that the top of the KOs are never above the lowest terminal inside the cabinet. The cover is designed with an overlap at the top to cause water hitting the top to flow on the outside of the cover. The bottom of the cover is designed with a gap so that water in the interior can flow out. The design allows water to enter the interior at the tops of the KOs and never interfere with the connections. But the conduits and their interiors can be subjected to water.

/s/ Jim WIlliams


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## heel600 (Oct 31, 2007)

I think I'm the only one who agrees with JWELECTRIC.

Do I run NM into the back of a disco? Hell yes. Was I told in a code class that it's not NEC compliant? YEP.

Once it's outside of the housewrap, it's outside. This includes wires in the porch soffit.

If it's outside, it's a damp location. Regardless of it's enclosure.


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## jwelectric (Sep 28, 2008)

I am on a submarine under 200 feet of water cursing along at say 20 knots.

I am standing in the center of the galley eating saltine crakers. 

Am I under water?

But I am dry!

Am I underwater? If I am dry how can I be underwater?


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## kawaikfx400 (Jul 14, 2008)

We do the disconnects with NM at every house. Just use alittle ductseal where it comes out of the house and its weather tight into the enclosure, Been doing residential for years and never had an issue.


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## gilbequick (Oct 6, 2007)

I just want to see JWelectric wire a house with an outside service and pull all homeruns in UF. Make sure you take pictures!


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## jwelectric (Sep 28, 2008)

gilbequick said:


> I just want to see JWelectric wire a house with an outside service and pull all homeruns in UF. Make sure you take pictures!


 
How quick we tend to forget. click here


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

This is one of those deals where people who teach will continue to tell us it's wrong, yet we'll keep doing it anyhow and continue to pass. One thing I'm certain about, however, is that nobody from either way of thinking is going to lose any sleep over it.


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## jwelectric (Sep 28, 2008)

kawaikfx400 said:


> We do the disconnects with NM at every house. Just use alittle ductseal where it comes out of the house and its weather tight into the enclosure, Been doing residential for years and never had an issue.


Use them my self and I don't even try to seal the disconnect nor the connector but that is not the issue here.

See the first couple of post in this thread to see what is really being debated.


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## jwelectric (Sep 28, 2008)

MDShunk said:


> This is one of those deals where people who teach will continue to tell us it's wrong, yet we'll keep doing it anyhow and continue to pass. One thing I'm certain about, however, is that nobody from either way of thinking is going to lose any sleep over it.


 
:laughing: :laughing: Losing to much sleep waiting to see what is going to happen next on that other site. :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

jwelectric said:


> :laughing: :laughing: Losing to much sleep waiting to see what is going to happen next on that other site. :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:


Yeah, crazy, eh?


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## handyman78 (Dec 29, 2007)

Interesting discussion- By the way Arlington offers Siding Mounting blocks for exterior residential lights with integral molded mounting boxes. In their promo photos it shows NM cable coming right through a caulked hole in the vinyl siding and installed in a plastic button type restraint in the back of the block. Is this wet or damp area? These are UL & CSA listed blocks! http://www.aifittings.com/k_6.htm

http://www.aifittings.com/whnew45.htm


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## 76nemo (Aug 13, 2008)

I had to put my beer down after post #41. Any entry to the exterior/outside wall is a wet location here. Why treat them any different???? Nobody said Electrician+++ installed it, what gives?


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## jfwfmt (Jul 5, 2008)

jwelectric said:


> I am on a submarine under 200 feet of water cursing along at say 20 knots.
> 
> I am standing in the center of the galley eating saltine crakers.
> 
> ...


You're in a big NEMA 6P equivalent enclosure.
Why are you cursing?

/s/ Jim WIlliams:jester:


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## terille (Oct 16, 2008)

When going into a NEMA 3R using MN wire I use a nipple into the house from the back of the can. Water can "wick" up the NM cable and discolor the copper causing a "change of state " in the copper thus changing the resistance of the copper. This causes long term deterioration and future problems. This is why you cannot use NM in wet or damp locations. The 3R can is a protector of the NM similar to having the cable in your house.

Terille


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

terille said:


> When going into a NEMA 3R using MN wire I use a nipple into the house from the back of the can. Water can "wick" up the NM cable and discolor the copper causing a "change of state " in the copper thus changing the resistance of the copper. This causes long term deterioration and future problems. This is why you cannot use NM in wet or damp locations. The 3R can is a protector of the NM similar to having the cable in your house.
> 
> Terille


I do not buy this, if water gets in the 3R enclosure it can wick up UF, a nipple into the NM and any other wiring method you utilize.


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## jwelectric (Sep 28, 2008)

334.12 Uses Not Permitted.
(A) Types NM, NMC, and NMS. Types NM, NMC, and NMS cables shall not be permitted as follows: 
(B) Types NM and NMS. Types NM and NMS cables shall not be used under the following conditions or in the following locations: 
(4) In wet or damp locations

340.10 Uses Permitted.
Type UF cable shall be permitted as follows: 
(3) For wiring in wet, dry, or corrosive locations under the recognized wiring methods of this Code.


Location, Wet. Installations underground or in concrete slabs or masonry in direct contact with the earth; in locations subject to saturation with water or other liquids, such as vehicle washing areas; and in unprotected locations exposed to weather.

The installation of nipples, flex, fittings and other such methods are a violation of 312.5(C) 

It has nothing with the type of raceway being used nor does it have anything to do with the enclosure. The only thing that matters is the location. 
I can’t see any exceptions that say anything about NM cable being installed in a location that is exposed to weather if it is installed in liquidtight flexible conduit or an enclosure that provides a degree of protection against the weather. I do see that it makes mention of the location.


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

I don't think behind a 3r box is damp location especially with a nipple or caulk. Neither does any inspector who has looked at my work.


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

jwelectric said:


> 334.12 Uses Not Permitted.
> (A) Types NM, NMC, and NMS. Types NM, NMC, and NMS cables shall not be permitted as follows:
> (B) Types NM and NMS. Types NM and NMS cables shall not be used under the following conditions or in the following locations:
> (4) In wet or damp locations
> ...


JW,

Have to admit that you are getting a little beat up here but you are doing a good job anyhow!

I agree with your opinion of... it's the location that counts! But the word "Outside" is not listed in the above section. I think you are relating "Outside" with Wet or Damp Location. I do not believe that is the intent of the NEC. "Outside" is not even defined in the NEC. It may be "suggested" in handbooks as wet, but we all know that they can not be enforced. To help strengthen this opinion, there are "locations" that are inside buildings that are considered "Wet Locations," i.e. car washes.


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## amptech (Sep 21, 2007)

jwelectric said:


> No No my friend, The NEMA 3R is located in a wet location so any and every thing inside is also in the same location.


I don't understand this statement. Surely you don't mean to say the inside of a NEMA3R enclosure is a "wet location" just because it is installed on the exterior of a building, do you? If the inside of a NEMA 3R enclosure is a "wet location", the enclosure must be defective.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

amptech said:


> I don't understand this statement. Surely you don't mean to say the inside of a NEMA3R enclosure is a "wet location" just because it is installed on the exterior of a building, do you? If the inside of a NEMA 3R enclosure is a "wet location", the enclosure must be defective.


 
THe enclosure on occasion houses fuses and/or circuit breakers surely these are not rated for a wet location.


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## jwelectric (Sep 28, 2008)

brian john said:


> THe enclosure on occasion houses fuses and/or circuit breakers surely these are not rated for a wet location.


I think we are talking about NM cable not other devices at the time but if you want to talk about them we can. Simply start another thread.


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## piette (Feb 7, 2008)

jwelectric said:


> I think we are talking about NM cable not other devices at the time but if you want to talk about them we can. Simply start another thread.


It doesn't matter what you want to say is inside that 3R housing, whether it be NM cable or breakers, if one is considered in a wet location all would be. You can't say NM cable would be considered in a wet location in a 3R housing but a breaker isn't.

No need for another thread.

Jeff


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## amptech (Sep 21, 2007)

jwelectric said:


> I think we are talking about NM cable not other devices at the time but if you want to talk about them we can. Simply start another thread.


The statement I questioned was made in this thread so I'm asking for clarification in this thread.


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## jwelectric (Sep 28, 2008)

amptech said:


> The statement I questioned was made in this thread so I'm asking for clarification in this thread.


Okay then I think that is fair enough.

First could someone tell me just where it says that a breaker can not be located in a damp or wet location. I just don't seem to find that rule. I give everyone a hint, look at 240.32.

I think you will find this section worded a little differently than 334.12(B)(4).


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## jwelectric (Sep 28, 2008)

jwelectric said:


> Okay then I think that is fair enough.
> 
> First could someone tell me just where it says that a breaker can not be located in a damp or wet location. I just don't seem to find that rule. I give everyone a hint, look at 240.32.
> 
> I think you will find this section worded a little differently than 334.12(B)(4).


 
I sure am glad I finally got everyone to understand the difference between inside an enclosure and a location.


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## KayJay (Jan 20, 2008)

Wow… lots of replies to this post.
I would agree as to application and the letter of the code, but for the sake of inserting my 2-cents worth and stirring the pot, I also find this to be essentially a non-issue because of NM cables design.

I also admit to routinely installing NM cable and a dry location connector with duct seal through the back of AC disconnects, but since NM cable is required to have a moisture retardant outer jacket with THHN conductor insulation, which is rated for both damp and dry locations, I don't see this as much of an evil. I would also have a hard time believing that the slight occasional moisture level in a properly installed surface mounted 3-R enclosure is as or more severe than inside of a flush device box recessed into an exterior wall with a receptacle and in-use cover, or a flush round box recessed in the a wall behind a surface mounted outdoor light fixture, even if the fixture base is properly caulked. Condensation still takes place because of normal changes in temperature and humidity. Same thing in a surface mounted round weatherproof box with a WP cover and flood holders. We’ve all seen what happens to wirenuts in an outdoor fixture or what screw terminals on a WP receptacle look like after only a few months time.
I would consider any discoloration of the bare copper-grounding conductor in NM cable also a non-issue, if it weren’t then every hard-drawn bare copper messenger cable ever installed would be failing. 
As far as NEMA requiring NM cables exposed to water to be replaced, well, IMO that’s just NEMA being NEMA.

Just a hunch, but I would dare to say, that if you somehow backed a NM cable manufacturer into a corner, they would probably admit that even though it is unmarked, the THHN insulation used in NM cable is also the same THWN used in UF cable, as it is highly unlikely that it is cost effective for them to produce each cable type separately. Especially with the existence of dual rated THHN/THWN wire for many years now.

JMHO


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## jwelectric (Sep 28, 2008)

KayJay said:


> Wow… lots of replies to this post. JMHO


 
The question was not what do we all do but instead the question was;


subelect said:


> Legally, could you just use a romex on the end of the wire and call it good or do you need to use a sleeve?
> thanks.


The answer to the question is simple. It is not allowed at all.


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## KayJay (Jan 20, 2008)

jwelectric said:


> The question was not what do we all do but instead the question was;
> 
> 
> The answer to the question is simple. It is not allowed at all.


One would think so, but nothing is ever truly simple or straightforward when it comes to the NEC. Don’t forget to read 90.4. 
As many others here have been subtly trying to point out, if the AHJ approves the installation, deems it to be safe and adequate, then it is allowed according to the NEC. 
The AHJ generally has the final answer regarding interpretation of adequacy for any installation. 

Anyone who has been in the trade long enough understands that just because the code is written in black and white doesn’t necessarily mean it is always interpreted that way. Never say never when it comes to the NEC. :001_huh:


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## jwelectric (Sep 28, 2008)

First let’s get this AHJ and 90.4 things out of the way.

The AHJ mentioned in 90.4 if the governmental body that has jurisdiction over the electrical installation not the inspector that looks at your work daily. The inspector is nothing more than a human being and is just as capable as you or me of making a mistake or being wrong in their thinking. Also 90.4 is the introduction to the code and not one word of Article 90 is enforceable.

In North Carolina the NEC is adopted into law and is enforceable as a law. When it comes to law then black and white is all that counts. Also in NC just because a code enforcement official sign off does not relieve the electrical contractor from liability should the installation not follow the letter of the code.

The code is very clear that NM cable can not be installed in a wet location and any area that is exposed to the weather is by definition a wet location. The type of enclosure or the type of raceway does not change the location therefore the original question would have a simple answer of, “it can’t be done.”


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

jwelectric said:


> any area that is exposed to the weather is by definition a wet location.


Please, please show me that "definition" in the NEC.

Sorry, I can't find it.

If it is not in the NEC it is simply your opinion!


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## KayJay (Jan 20, 2008)

jwelectric said:


> First let’s get this AHJ and 90.4 things out of the way.
> 
> The AHJ mentioned in 90.4 if the governmental body that has jurisdiction over the electrical installation not the inspector that looks at your work daily. The inspector is nothing more than a human being and is just as capable as you or me of making a mistake or being wrong in their thinking. Also 90.4 is the introduction to the code and not one word of Article 90 is enforceable.


Here in my area, an inspector is also known as the local AHJ or approving authority. If he is satisfied that an installation is safe and adequate, he gives written approval by signing the permit and that’s the end of the story for an EC. I think we have all been told in code seminars that Article 90 is unenforceable, but without it, there is really no way to enforce any other article in the code as no guidelines for its scope or range of application would exist.

I say this can be done compliantly with local AHJ approval and it is done everyday in probably thousands of installations without incident. I don’t think anyone in the State House will be to be loosing any sleep over this one at all one way or the other. :yawn::yawn:


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## jwelectric (Sep 28, 2008)

Roger123 said:


> Please, please show me that "definition" in the NEC.
> 
> Sorry, I can't find it.
> 
> If it is not in the NEC it is simply your opinion!


 
It is real easy to find if you look in Article 100

*Location, Wet.* Installations underground or in concrete slabs or masonry in direct contact with the earth; in locations subject to saturation with water or other liquids, such as vehicle washing areas; and in unprotected locations exposed to weather.


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## jwelectric (Sep 28, 2008)

KayJay said:


> Here in my area, an inspector is also known as the local AHJ or approving authority. If he is satisfied that an installation is safe and adequate, he gives written approval by signing the permit and that’s the end of the story for an EC.


 I can't really say about Ma. but, I wouldn't be surprised to find out that the EC in your area would still be liable for an installation even if the inspector signed off or not. Here in NC the acceptance of an installation by an inspector in no way relieves the EC from liability 




KayJay said:


> I think we have all been told in code seminars that Article 90 is unenforceable, but without it, there is really no way to enforce any other article in the code as no guidelines for its scope or range of application would exist.


 It was you that mentioned 90.4 and what powers it gave an inspector. The only thing that Article 90 does is introduces someone to the code. 




KayJay said:


> I say this can be done compliantly with local AHJ approval and it is done everyday in probably thousands of installations without incident.


 Just because an inspector thinks that something is compliant in no way makes it compliant. 




KayJay said:


> I don’t think anyone in the State House will be to be loosing any sleep over this one at all one way or the other.



I doubt anyone in the State House would even be giving something like this a second thought but it still does not change the verbiage found in 334.12 now does it?


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

jwelectric said:


> It is real easy to find if you look in Article 100
> 
> *Location, Wet.* Installations underground or in concrete slabs or masonry in direct contact with the earth; in locations subject to saturation with water or other liquids, such as vehicle washing areas; and in unprotected locations exposed to weather.


JW,
Thanks for underlining the above definition. Your definition of "any area that is exposed to the weather" is different from the NEC. That is whats been the whole point in this tread. 

"Any area" and "in *unprotected locations*" are two different definitions. There has been a number of replies in this tread that believe there are "protected locations" that are exposed to the weather. 

Here is a question for you, since these "protected locations" are not all listed in the NEC, who makes the decision that they are code compliant?


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## itsunclebill (Jan 16, 2007)

Looks like a bit of common sense in code language (like reverting to the 2005, for example) might be a good idea. That water permeable PVC jacket on the NM-B and thermoplastic (think THWN) insulated conductors are pretty susceptible to the gallons of water this cable wicks up on a daily basis. Maybe we need some good "goop" approved for smearing up the ends to seal up NM-B that extends into a housing mounted on an exterior wall

Colorado used to pretty much adopt the new codes statewide in July of the year a new code came out. Now we have jurisdictions not adopting the new code just because of crap like this, and ARC faults, etc. etc.


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## jwelectric (Sep 28, 2008)

Roger123 said:


> JW,





Roger123 said:


> Thanks for underlining the above definition. Your definition of "any area that is exposed to the weather" is different from the NEC. That is whats been the whole point in this tread.


 I am not sure just what code cycle you are using in your area but the definition I posted goes back several code cycles and is found in Article 100 of the National Electrical Code.

Location, Wet. Installations under ground or in concrete slabs or masonry in direct contact with the earth; in locations subject to saturation with water or other liquids, such as vehicle washing areas; and in unprotected locations exposed to weather.





Roger123 said:


> "Any area" and "in *unprotected locations*" are two different definitions. There has been a number of replies in this tread that believe there are "protected locations" that are exposed to the weather.


NM that is installed in an enclosure or a raceway in no way changes the location that is exposed to the weather. A good example of being protected from the weather would be under a covered porch. Even there it would have to be in far enough that blowing rain could not reach the equipment that contains the NM cable. 

Although I have stated many times throughout this thread that I install NM to an AC disconnect and even though there is thousands of other electricians that make such an installation does not make a code compliant installation. Yes I know that it is passed every day by code officials across our great nation but again it still does not make a code compliant installation.





Roger123 said:


> Here is a question for you, since these "protected locations" are not all listed in the NEC, who makes the decision that they are code compliant?


Careful that you don’t expose your knowledge of the NEC. The NEC does give references to the different locations. Look up locations in Article 100.


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

JW,

My final post on this tread, cause it is time to move on.



jwelectric said:


> Outside is a wet location and NM cable is not allowed to be installed in this location.


 



jwelectric said:


> A good example of being protected from the weather would be under a covered porch.


 ???

No one is questioning the NEC definition of Location, Wet. It is your written definition that is being questioned.




jwelectric said:


> The code is very clear that NM cable can not be installed in a wet location and *any area* that is exposed to the weather is by definition a wet location.


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## KayJay (Jan 20, 2008)

jwelectric said:


> Just because an inspector thinks that something is compliant in no way makes it compliant.


Clearly I am referring only to situations of minor magnitude, such as, the installation noted by the OP, not matters of incompetence or gross negligence. 
No competent inspector or approving authority can or would dismiss the code in a willy-nilly fashion, but he is certainly within his right and granted such, to implement some flexibility of judgment in matters of approval, without fear of retribution. In keeping with this, an installation approved, would be deemed satisfactorily compliant. 
If concern over potential liability is the deciding and crippling issue, then all EC’s should close their doors and all local AHJ’s should quit immediately, because every single job, from the smallest to the largest always carry inherent shared risk, even a job that is completely 100%, to the letter of the code compliant.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

I have only skimmed this comedy, but please bear with my two cents. Many light fixtures are also rated for "wet locations" , for instance wall mounted exterior light fixtures by the side door to the few million houses built the last ten years. Most inspectors outside the Carolina state lines have no problems with wiring those via romex. The wall box faces "outdoors". The romex would be "outdoors" were it not for the rated light fixture. Same goes for the 3R disconnect switch. The romex is not allowed to be there if the box is not installed on the wall, but once it is, the romex is protected from the wet location by the box. This subject comes up from time to time always regarding boxes or disconnects, often while the parties are within a few feet or yards of an exterior light fixture wired with romex, but nobody that thinks it is a code violation ever mentions lights as a code violation at the same time. Its because they might loose the arguement at that point.


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## jwelectric (Sep 28, 2008)

7-50 Log #201 NEC-P07 *Final Action: Accept*
*(334.12)*
____________________________________________________________
*TCC Action: The Technical Correlating Committee directs the panel to*
*clairfy the action on this proposal. This action will be considered by the*
*panel as a public comment.*
*NOTE: The following proposal consists of Comment 7-104 on Proposal 7-*
*115 in the 2004 May Meeting National Electrical Code Committee Report*
*on Proposals. This comment was held for further study during the*
*processing of the 2004 NATIONAL ELECTRICAL CODE. [Refer to*
*Proposal 7-49 (Log#200)]*
*Submitter: *Noel Williams, Noel Williams Consulting
*Recommendation: *This proposal should be rejected or accepted in principle with the additional change:
Revise 334.12(B)(4) to read “In wet or damp locations.”
*Substantiation: *This proposal will create more problems than it will solve.
The comments on Negative by Mr. Brown, Mr. Schumacher, and Mr. Stewart should be more carefully considered. The explanation of negative by Gotham (ROP 7-8) is also applicable here. The idea could work, but it must first be coordinated with UL listing information, which currently refers to Article 334.
In particular, the language about “normally dry locations” has been completely lost, and the remaining language “where exposed to excessive moisture or dampness” is too vague to be useful in enforcement. Wet and damp locations are well defined.
*Panel Meeting Action: Accept*
*Number Eligible to Vote: 14*
*Ballot Results: *Affirmative: 14


Looking first at the definition of damp location one can see that there is examples given of a damp location.

Location, Damp. Locations protected from weather and not subject to saturation with water or other liquids but subject to moderate degrees of moisture. Examples of such locations include partially protected locations under canopies, marquees, roofed open porches, and like locations, and interior locations subject to moderate degrees of moisture, such as some basements, some barns, and some cold-storage warehouses.

Should there be a box that is installed inside of a wall there are no conductors that are contained in that box that are exposed to weather. In the case of a receptacle the in-use cover that is installed to protect the receptacle is mounted flush to the exterior wall and nothing is outside. In the case of a light fixture the same would be true. No part of the conductors would be on the outside but they would be contained on the inside of the wall and a fixture would be flush to the wall.

In the event of a disconnect that is surface mounted to the exterior wall then the conductors would have to leave the building to enter the enclosure, see 312.3. The enclosure is required to be no less than ¼ away from the exterior wall.
This alone would be enough to turn down the installation of NM cable to the disconnect. 

The definition of wet location is just where the disconnect is located.

Location, Wet. Installations underground or in concrete slabs or masonry in direct contact with the earth; in locations subject to saturation with water or other liquids, such as vehicle washing areas; and in unprotected locations exposed to weather.

Looking at the definition of damp and wet locations it is easy to see what is protected from weather. In neither do I see anything that would include a box that is installed inside an exterior wall.


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## acrwc10 (Jan 28, 2007)

300.9 Raceways in Wet Locations Above Grade.
Where raceways are installed in wet locations above grade, the interior of these raceways shall be considered to be a wet location. Insulated conductors and cables installed in raceways in wet locations above grade shall comply with 310.8(C).

300.5(B) Wet Locations. The interior of enclosures or raceways installed underground shall be considered to be a wet location. Insulated conductors and cables installed in these enclosures or raceways in underground installations shall be listed for use in wet locations and shall comply with 310.8(C). Any connections or splices in an underground installation shall be approved for wet locations.

The preceding code sections say "raceway above grade" and "enclosures installed underground" are wet locations. It does not say enclosures above grade are wet locations. Although I think you are very stuck to the thought that you are correct on this you have not shown anything that is relevant to your argument. Inside a 3R location is "protected" from the weather, to say otherwise is a real stretch of the code. I have heard some real whoppers in my time but this is up there. 
You can say an enclosure underground is a wet location, and you can say an above ground raceway is a wet location, and you will get no argument but to say an above ground 3R enclosure is a wet location is pure ignorance of code interpretation. It just doesn't say that.:no:


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

Jwelectric is definitely passionate about the inside of his 3r boxes, he has proven that. :thumbsup:


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## KayJay (Jan 20, 2008)

The terms protected and unprotected are also undefined in Article 100. If any part of an installation that is unprotected is then protected, is it still exposed to weather with regard to any location as defined in Article 100?
Location, Damp; Location, Dry: Location, Wet are indeed defined in Article 100, but there appear to be undefined variables allowing for several interpretations within those definitions.


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## acrwc10 (Jan 28, 2007)

KayJay said:


> The terms protected and unprotected are also undefined in Article 100. If any part of an installation that is unprotected is then protected, is it still exposed to weather with regard to any location as defined in Article 100?
> Location, Damp; Location, Dry: Location, Wet are indeed defined in Article 100, but there appear to be undefined variables allowing for several interpretations within those definitions.


Like I pointed out in my earlier post, enclosures under ground , are defined as wet locations, the inside of a conduit in a wet location, is defined as wet locations, Not the other way around.


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## KayJay (Jan 20, 2008)

acrwc10 said:


> Like I pointed out in my earlier post, enclosures under ground , are defined as wet locations, the inside of a conduit in a wet location, is defined as wet locations, Not the other way around.


I agree, but my point was to be, what if instead of a conduit sleeve, the NM cable were run through the lower KO in back of that AC disconnect enclosure with a dry location connector and encapsulated in an approved compound, such as duct seal. This is not a raceway and doesn’t conform the context to the term “exposed” as used in 334, or the definition of Article100. Protected is also not defined in Article 100 nor are examples of how to achieve protection. Protection from physical damage as described in 334 is also up for debate as to whether it applies here.

I think most, myself included, would conclude that this is still a wet location, but my intent was to ask for some text in the code, specific formal interpretation, a standard, or condition of listing that would consider that portion inside of an encapsulated area as a wet location.


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## acrwc10 (Jan 28, 2007)

KayJay said:


> I agree, but my point was to be, what if instead of a conduit sleeve, the NM cable were run through the lower KO in back of that AC disconnect enclosure with a dry location connector and encapsulated in an approved compound, such as duct seal. This is not a raceway and doesn’t conform the context to the term “exposed” as used in 334, or the definition of Article100. Protected is also not defined in Article 100 nor are examples of how to achieve protection. Protection from physical damage as described in 334 is also up for debate as to whether it applies here.
> 
> I think most, myself included, would conclude that this is still a wet location, but my intent was to ask for some text in the code, specific formal interpretation, a standard, or condition of listing that would consider that portion inside of an encapsulated area as a wet location.


I read the NEC as a "permissive document" meaning if it doesn't say you can not do something, then there is no reason to jump to conclusions and say you can't.


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## KayJay (Jan 20, 2008)

acrwc10 said:


> I read the NEC as a "permissive document" meaning if it doesn't say you can not do something, then there is no reason to jump to conclusions and say you can't.


I agree. I would also contend that without specific wording explicitly defining or forbidding this, the matter of compliance would be left for interpretation by the applicable approving authority until a formal interpretation had been issued.


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## Pierre Belarge (Feb 3, 2007)

I am curious, where in the NEC does it state that overcurrent devices themselves cannot be installed in damp or wet locations?


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## Pierre Belarge (Feb 3, 2007)

I agree with JW in principle.

I will add that the NEC has not addressed this in the modern era, as no proposals have been presented. I do not believe many people have thought much about it...yet.

Notice in the '08 that the locations of raceways has been clarified. Maybe we will see a clarification in a soon to be adopted change for enclosures installed in wet locations.


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## jwelectric (Sep 28, 2008)

Pierre Belarge said:


> I agree with JW in principle.
> 
> I will add that the NEC has not addressed this in the modern era, as no proposals have been presented. I do not believe many people have thought much about it...yet.
> 
> Notice in the '08 that the locations of raceways has been clarified. Maybe we will see a clarification in a soon to be adopted change for enclosures installed in wet locations.


Well Pierre I suppose you brought this thread to a close with your statement


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## acrwc10 (Jan 28, 2007)

Pierre Belarge said:


> I am curious, where in the NEC does it state that overcurrent devices themselves cannot be installed in damp or wet locations?


I would ask are the listed and labeled as such? I have yet to see a breaker that was labeled "suitable for wet location". So that must mean the inside of the enclosure(panel) is considered "not a wet location" by the manufacturer.


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## jwelectric (Sep 28, 2008)

acrwc10 said:


> I would ask are the listed and labeled as such? I have yet to see a breaker that was labeled "suitable for wet location". So that must mean the inside of the enclosure(panel) is considered "not a wet location" by the manufacturer.


 
Take a few minutes and read 240.32 and you will see the requirements for installing overcurrent devices in a wet location. The section even states, "devices in damp or wet locations" which would lead anyone reading the section to understand that the location is classified as either a wet, damp or dry location. 

Then read 334.12(B)(4) to get a full understanding of NM cable and where it is not allowed to be installed.

Just because an enclosure has some type of rating does not change the location it is installed in. If it did then 110.20 would be a mute section of the code.


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## acrwc10 (Jan 28, 2007)

jwelectric said:


> Take a few minutes and read 240.32 and you will see the requirements for installing overcurrent devices in a wet location. The section even states, "devices in damp or wet locations" which would lead anyone reading the section to understand that the location is classified as either a wet, damp or dry location.
> 
> Then read 334.12(B)(4) to get a full understanding of NM cable and where it is not allowed to be installed.
> 
> Just because an enclosure has some type of rating does not change the location it is installed in. If it did then 110.20 would be a mute section of the code.


 
Well I do have to state I think you are an extremest. But I believe you are wrong. I am not going to argue this point any longer I will just say I disagree with you and so does every inspector I have ever worked with. You do it your way I'll do it my way and thank god you are not an inspector. PS I do respect your point of view I just don't agree with you.


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## jwelectric (Sep 28, 2008)

acrwc10 said:


> Well I do have to state I think you are an extremest. But I believe you are wrong. I am not going to argue this point any longer I will just say I disagree with you and so does every inspector I have ever worked with. You do it your way I'll do it my way and thank god you are not an inspector. PS I do respect your point of view I just don't agree with you.


There is nothing wrong with disagreeing with me and I always look forward to those who do. If everyone agreed with me I wouldn’t get a very good night sleep as the bed would be very crowded and the wife…. Well let’s just say she is also glad that everyone does not agree with me (at least I hope she feels this way or I might end up single)

Your statement about me being an inspector might be just a little off base. In order to teach Inspector Courses in NC one must first be a Level III inspector. I do teach all three levels of electrical inspectors at RCC. 

See page 8 of this link

PS I also respect your point of view but I don't agree with it


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