# two pole vs. two individual breakers



## Jarrod Gaines (Oct 16, 2011)

I have to run two 120v, 20A recepticles in the same two gang box. My question is should I use a two pole 20A breaker, or two individual 20A single pole breakers tied together? My thinking is to use the two individual breakers tied together (so that if one is to be shut off for service, then the other is also) because if we were to use the two pole breaker and each circuit were to pull say 15A (30A total), wouldn't the breaker trip?


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

It is not necessary to turn off both circuits unless they are on the same device. They may be installed in the same box without a dp or breaker ties. If you want to do it anyway then either a DP or the handle ties would be okay.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> It is not necessary to turn off both circuits unless they are on the same device. They may be installed in the same box without a dp or breaker ties. If you want to do it anyway then either a DP or the handle ties would be okay.


Is it a MWBC?


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Is it a MWBC?


He didn't say that but you are correct- I should have stated if it were a MWBC then either install would be compliant. :thumbsup:


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## Chris Kennedy (Nov 19, 2007)

Jarrod Gaines said:


> if we were to use the two pole breaker and each circuit were to pull say 15A (30A total), wouldn't the breaker trip?


No, each pole is good for 20A.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Jarrod Gaines said:


> I have to run two 120v, 20A recepticles in the same two gang box. My question is should I use a two pole 20A breaker, or two individual 20A single pole breakers tied together? My thinking is to use the two individual breakers tied together (so that if one is to be shut off for service, then the other is also) because if we were to use the two pole breaker and each circuit were to pull say 15A (30A total), wouldn't the breaker trip?


It all depends on how it is wired. You did not tell us this so everything is a guess until you do. 

Are you an electrician?


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## green light (Oct 12, 2011)

Either install would not be compliant here if it were a mwbc. Lets say he had a 12/3 at the box. Code would require a 2 pole 20


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## Chris Kennedy (Nov 19, 2007)

green light said:


> Code would require a 2 pole 20


Handle-tie is no good?


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## green light (Oct 12, 2011)

210.4b. One of the more signifigant changes in 2008. I dont believe a handle on two single poles is acceptable.


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## green light (Oct 12, 2011)

Maybe a handle tie is acceptable. Can anyone verify this?


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

Jarrod Gaines said:


> I have to run two 120v, 20A recepticles in the same two gang box. My question is should I use a two pole 20A breaker, or two individual 20A single pole breakers tied together? My thinking is to use the two individual breakers tied together (so that if one is to be shut off for service, then the other is also) because if we were to use the two pole breaker and each circuit were to pull say 15A (30A total), wouldn't the breaker trip?



I think this is a D I Y question! The O P is not an electrician! I M O.


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## Chris Kennedy (Nov 19, 2007)

green light said:


> Maybe a handle tie is acceptable. Can anyone verify this?


Here is the HB commentary following 210.4(B) 2008.



> Multiwire branch circuits can be dangerous when not all the ungrounded circuit conductors are de-energized and equipment supplied from a multiwire circuit is being serviced. For this reason, all ungrounded conductors of a multiwire branch circuit must be simultaneously disconnected to reduce the risk of shock to personnel working on equipment supplied by a multiwire branch circuit. The simultaneous disconnecting means requirement takes the guesswork out of ensuring safe conditions for maintenance. In former editions of the NEC, this requirement applied only where the multiwire branch circuit supplied equipment mounted to a common yoke or strap.
> 
> For a single-phase installation, the simultaneous disconnection can be achieved by two single-pole circuit breakers with an identified handle tie, as shown in Exhibit 210.1 (top), or by a 2-pole switch or circuit breaker, as shown in Exhibit 210.1 (bottom). For a 3-phase installation, a 3-pole circuit breaker or three single-pole circuit breakers with an identified handle tie provides the required simultaneous disconnection of the ungrounded conductors. Where fuses are used for the branch-circuit overcurrent protection, a 2-pole or 3-pole switch is required.
> 
> The simultaneous opening of both “hot” conductors at the panelboard effectively protects personnel from inadvertent contact with an energized conductor or device terminal during servicing. The simultaneous disconnection can be achieved by a 2-pole switch or circuit breaker, as shown in Exhibit 210.1 (bottom), or by two single-pole circuit breakers with an identified handle tie, as shown in Exhibit 210.1 (top). Where fuses are used for the branch circuit overcurrent protection, a 2-pole disconnect switch is required.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Chris Kennedy said:


> Here is the HB commentary following 210.4(B) 2008.



Basically the same wording is in the '11.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

_..............._


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

I have re-opened the thread.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I have re-opened the thread.


 
cool because I disagree with post #4


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> cool because I disagree with post #4


Defend your position why stop there. Are you saying that a dp breaker or 2 sp with ties are not compliant on a MWBC?


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

What exactly constitutes an "identified" handle tie vs say perhaps a "listed" handle tie?


Just wondering. Around here you can't use an "identified" circuit breaker , you must use one "listed" for the can. 


Doesn't seem really right, having to use a "listed" circuit breaker for the loadcenter, but allowed to use an "identified" handle tie by the code book.





What me worry?


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Defend your position why stop there. Are you saying that a dp breaker or 2 sp with ties are not compliant on a MWBC?


 

Ahhhh, I gotcha, I misunderstood your post. When you said "either install" would be compliant, I thought one of those options was two single poles without a handle tie. I should have known you knew better. 

On a side note, under 05, no handle tie would be required.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

macmikeman said:


> What exactly constitutes an "identified" handle tie vs say perhaps a "listed" handle tie?
> 
> 
> Just wondering. Around here you can't use an "identified" circuit breaker , you must use one "listed" for the can.
> ...


 
I think they word it that way to keep you (or me) from using wire to tie the two together.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I have re-opened the thread.


Well, this was at 5:16p and Jarrod signed off at 5:41p. 

Hopefully he is not too hurt that he won't come back and explain how this is wired.


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## Chris Kennedy (Nov 19, 2007)

Speedy Petey said:


> Hopefully he is not too hurt that he won't come back and explain how this is wired.


If he did any lurking here I'm sure he is well aware of the unwritten 'Thick Skin' requirement of posting here.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Chris Kennedy said:


> If he did any lurking here I'm sure he is well aware of the unwritten 'Thick Skin' requirement of posting here.


I cry myself to sleep every night because of you - you big bully.


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## CanadianSparky (May 10, 2011)

I have a feeling the OP is not an electrician due to the fact he is under the belief that a 2p breaker only protect up to the rated amperage on both legs combined. 

Here in Canada we are able to wire a MWBC with with 2 single pole breakers on separate receptacles no problem. I have just been asked to pigtail the neutrals this way your not interrupting the other circuit if you are working on the first receptacle. (this being if you run a 3-wire to a rec then a 2-wire to another).


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## Dierte (May 12, 2009)

macmikeman said:


> What exactly constitutes an "identified" handle tie vs say perhaps a "listed" handle tie?
> 
> 
> Just wondering. Around here you can't use an "identified" circuit breaker , you must use one "listed" for the can.
> ...


After not being able to find handle ties for a specific breaker the inspector told me to use a finish nail to tie the breaker handles together:blink:. Personally I would rather use a 2 pole or 3 pole breaker instead of tying together. I had a service call one time that was for a circuit not working. Turns out when one breaker tripped it didn't have enough ass to visibly trip the breaker tied to it. It just tripped internally if that makes sense?


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## Chris Kennedy (Nov 19, 2007)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I cry myself to sleep every night because of you - you big bully.


Come on pal, I'm one of the nice guys.:whistling2:


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

Last time I got bit was in 2gang went and killed it (I thought) put the wig in one and like a dumy didnt wig the other...and I always do that.. man ouch the fool used 2 ocds each on different phase thank god was 120 ouch


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

RGH said:


> Last time I got bit was in 2gang went and killed it (I thought) put the wig in one and like a dumy didnt wig the other...and I always do that.. man ouch the fool used 2 ocds each on different phase thank god was 120 ouch


 
If they were sharing the neutral, they BETTER be on seperate phase.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

Didn't they use to sell a separate handle tie, that you could use for 3 wire circuits ?


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

No 2 different cir's 2 recp's plus feed outs was a mess and he cut the tab and feed the bottom of one from the other wtf so 3 of 4 were dead I didnt get it at all. H/o said room was remodeled in 70's plus found D/w direct wire to lug 1 in panel no ocd at all nothing surprises me anymore.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

dronai said:


> Didn't they use to sell a separate handle tie, that you could use for 3 wire circuits ?


You can buy 3 pole handle ties-- I believe GE sells them for $1.00 ,maybe $2.00-- a whole lot cheaper than a 3 pole breaker


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## Jarrod Gaines (Oct 16, 2011)

it is a mwbc, I understand that the breakers have to have listed handle ties if not a multiple pole breaker. I was checking in previous similar threads and a similar question was posted at an earlier date, you guys didn't tear into them like this, I should of checked it out first. I am sorry for soiling the santification of your forum with my lack of intelligence. I can only hope to oneday be perfect enough to grace your presence and contribute to the intellect of this forum.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Jarrod Gaines said:


> it is a mwbc, I understand that the breakers have to have listed handle ties if not a multiple pole breaker. I was checking in previous similar threads and a similar question was posted at an earlier date, you guys didn't tear into them like this, I should of checked it out first. I am sorry for soiling the santification of your forum with my lack of intelligence. I can only hope to oneday be perfect enough to grace your presence and contribute to the intellect of this forum.


Jarrod.. there was nothing "mean" intended.. this is a great place to learn.. just give it a chance.. :thumbsup:


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

Jarrod if ya wanna get whipped to death tell'em you use seu on your services...duck and cover :laughing::laughing:


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Jarrod Gaines said:


> it is a mwbc,


This would have been great to know from the start.





Jarrod Gaines said:


> I am sorry for soiling the santification of your forum with my lack of intelligence. I can only hope to oneday be perfect enough to grace your presence and contribute to the intellect of this forum.


And these are the type of dumb comments that will only make things harder for you. 
No one questioned your intelligence, just your level of expertise. Around here, and in real life, a JW would know that a MWBC needs a tied breaker. I guess not in your part of the world. Sorry for not knowing that. Then again, we did not know much from the level of detail given in your original post.

Stick around, learn, read, ask, converse. Just don't get offended so easily.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Jarrod Gaines said:


> I have to run two 120v, 20A recepticles in the same two gang box. My question is should I use a two pole 20A breaker, or two individual 20A single pole breakers tied together? My thinking is to use the two individual breakers tied together (so that if one is to be shut off for service, then the other is also) because if we were to use the two pole breaker and each circuit were to pull say 15A (30A total), wouldn't the breaker trip?


I would use a two pole 20 amp breaker you can also use two single pole breakers with handle ties that is up to you.:thumbsup:





> because if we were to use the two pole breaker and each circuit were to pull say 15A (30A total), wouldn't the breaker trip?



A two pole 20 amp breaker will trip only if one or both legs draws 20 amps or more.






> it is a mwbc, I understand that the breakers have to have listed handle ties if not a multiple pole breaker. I was checking in previous similar threads and a similar question was posted at an earlier date, you guys didn't tear into them like this, I should of checked it out first.


On the MWBC this is what the 2011 NEC says.


> 210.7 Multiple Branch Circuits. Where two or more
> branch circuits supply devices or equipment on the same
> yoke, a means to simultaneously disconnect the ungrounded
> conductors supplying those devices shall be provided
> at the point at which the branch circuits originate.





> I am sorry for soiling the santification of your forum with my lack of intelligence. I can only hope to oneday be perfect enough to grace your presence and contribute to the intellect of this forum.


The only lack of intelligence is not asking a question.

This is a the best place to ask a question and get some free entertainment and lots of laughs and still have someone come along and give the answer to your question .:thumbsup:

As Electricians none of us know it all especially ME:laughing: that is why i come here every day to learn and you can learn tons of stuff here that just reading the NEC will never get you coming on here forces you to open the books and follow the discussion regardless of the topic.

With 25,000 members on ET you will get every opinion ever thought of.

Remember the majority of us are men just put 10 of them in a room and look out,,,You know what it is like your an Electrician so don't take anything personal I never will you don't have to either.


Welcome to the forum Jarrod jump right in with us......:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

.......


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