# automation company requirements



## denny3992 (Jul 12, 2010)

bill4807 said:


> I am sure some of you out there do automation and controls work on a daily basis as do I. I am wondering how would you get into starting a company if you do not carry a electrical contracting license? There should definitly be some other license since other than electrical theory we all know that contracting and a controls engineer are very different fields. I just think It would be silly to have to hold a masters license to do drive, robot, PLC, HMI, control wiring panel design, and all these such things. Any thoughts on this subject would be really appreciated.
> 
> Thanks!


If ur just programming prob no license... If u wire new and do install, maybe.... If u do service work in industry and factories,prob not


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## bill4807 (Jan 4, 2013)

probably panel build off site no install, but startup. programming yes, and service work yes. I am in michigan btw. Not sure where i can find information on this sort of thing. Since whenever you speak with someone and you say "electrical" they say electrician and have no idea there is a difference. 

Thanks for the reply.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

You are a licensed PE ? I bet no you don't need a license. Denny's probably right in what he said. If your getting work by your reputation, and doing plant type work, what does it matter, and who's going to check ? I would think your competence is your ticket.


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## CYoung (Apr 19, 2013)

I have been kicking this exact idea around now for sometime. My main hold-up is the insurance coverage. I contacted my insurance company and they stated that if I installed the panels that I built it would be covered under a general liability policy, but if I had someone else install (which is kinda of the plan) I would need something other than general liability. That is kinda of where I left the idea. I am also a bit concerned with drumming up business, not sure what the best way would be to go about it. Would you just walk into a plant and say "Let me design, program, and commission your next big automation project"


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## dawgs (Dec 1, 2007)

CYoung said:


> I have been kicking this exact idea around now for sometime. My main hold-up is the insurance coverage. I contacted my insurance company and they stated that if I installed the panels that I built it would be covered under a general liability policy, but if I had someone else install (which is kinda of the plan) I would need something other than general liability. That is kinda of where I left the idea. I am also a bit concerned with drumming up business, not sure what the best way would be to go about it. Would you just walk into a plant and say "Let me design, program, and commission your next big automation project"


Solicit electrical contractors that do industrial work. I could use a guy like you on many projects. Bidding one now actually.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

I guess of you aren't gonna do any field work besides programming you probably don't need an EC license. You'll need business licensing and insurance, liability and probably E&I.


Prsonally I like being able to deliver the whole enchilada, we can build a plant for the ground up all the way through programming, commissioning and operations.


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## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

I tried it both ways. I had been an electrician, but not a Master. Then several other directions in the field taught me panel building, and I eventually ventured off doing that. I got UL 508A listing, because I was in Washington State where that was required. But eventually the scope of projects I could chase became limiting and I did a JV with an EC so we could chase design-build project ts and maximize our potential. That worked fine and we grew, but eventually the EC wanted out because I wasn't interested in a more steady flow of projects that didn't involve power and controls, so he felt it was necessary to chase high school lighting projects and data com. In retrospect I might have controlled my own destiny more by getting my Master's license on my own. But I took a different path and got back on the corporate treadmill. No regrets though, I had other needs to consider at the time as well and the security of health insurance for my family was a big draw.

Anyway, you CAN start a control panel building business without anything but wits and moxie. It's hard, but everything is. I highly suggest pursuing a UL listing eventually, it adds legitimacy to your credentials even if it is not a requirement in your state, but if you later chase machine builders, they will demand that for their customers in other states that require it.


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## Safari (Jul 9, 2013)

jraef.thanks very informative


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## Plccontrolguy (Jul 23, 2013)

Hey all. 


I'm in Ontario Canada so it definitely depends on where you live. Here, there are lots of electrical technology guys who build panels for clients, machine builders etc. Out code requires all electrical equipment (even though UL & CSA approved components) that is assembled to receive a field evaluation inspection. A technologist can do this, obviously if you are building sufficient numbers of panels that are similar then you could pay for CSA/UL certification. 

Technologists though are not electricians as they do not go through the apprenticeship system and are not licensed. I am a construction & maintenance electrician with my industrial controls endorsement (specialize in PLC's, machine & motor controls & industrial systems) I have my masters license and had my contractors which I have let lapse because I closed my business. One of the reasons was insurance because the insurance company said (due to their ignorance) that I was unqualified to design panels and build control systems. The other was too many unpaid & slow paid invoices so when a big factory offers me a job because my experience I jumped at the chance. 

Here you need an EC license to install on customer premises and wire to the building supply so I would definitely talk to someone where you are to find out the requirements for an EC license as well why you would need one. 

Interesting how different jurisdictions treat licensing differently and what applies here does to there.

Good luck!


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## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

I also should have mentioned: 
If you want to take on automation, as opposed to just panel building, get yourself certified on several of the more pular PLC programming packages. It can be expensive, but consider it an investment in yourself. Don't bother with the free stuff available over the Internet, customers see no value in that anyway because they can do that themselves. Take on training on AB Logix5000, Siemens Step7, things like that. As much as people complain about the cost of Logix5000, it is the #1 programming software in North America, because 42% of all PLCs used here are AB. That's a huge market base for someone seeking work in that field. #2 is Siemens with about 20% market share, then Modicon with about 15%. The rest is split up by 20 or 30 other players, none of which get much action here. The money is in having skills in #s 1&2. Latch onto a good AB upgrade project at a small production facility that can't afford to tie up their main maintenance guy for long periods and you can feed your family for a year.


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## bill4807 (Jan 4, 2013)

Wow. Thanks everybody for the great insight. 

Dronai: i understood what you meant and I agree. I am not a PE, I would assume i would be set if I was. lol

CYoung: i have yet to look into insurance. What you said does make sense it would be more liability to have another party installing since "things" could happen if not built correctly.

Dawgs: That is a great idea since I know how that works, I do work for a contractor now. Customers are always looking for a company that can cover everything they need.

Jlarson: I would be doing field work. Service calls and any needed retrofits. 

Jraef: It does sound like we have taken somewhat of the same path. I can pull wire and bend pipe too, but my specialty is in controls and electronics. I have my electronic engineering degree and do alot of drive work, CNC servo systems, fanuc robot maintenance as well as PLC's, AB500, 5000 basics, Step7 and fanuc. UL508 is a must to get in my book. The company I am with now I do all of their specialty work even as much as power analysis and harmonic control systems. 

PLCcontrolguy: see I do not believe or haven;t found any certs for controls or machine electrician here in michigan. I know how the system works since like I said i work for a contractor that was primarily journyman and masters, until myself and a couple other techs and programmers came aboard.


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## Soufiane (Apr 23, 2021)

bill4807 said:


> I am sure some of you out there do automation and controls work on a daily basis as do I. I am wondering how would you get into starting a company if you do not carry a electrical contracting license? There should definitly be some other license since other than electrical theory we all know that contracting and a controls engineer are very different fields. I just think It would be silly to have to hold a masters license to do drive, robot, PLC, HMI, control wiring panel design, and all these such things. Any thoughts on this subject would be really appreciated.
> 
> Thanks!


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## Wardenclyffe (Jan 11, 2019)

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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

Generally there are no certifications for controls. A big reason is people don’t start in controls. They come from other areas. Also controls usually falls under the industrial exemption for engineering or a similar exemption for manufacturer supplied installs. Generally most states require licensing to protect “the public” but that doesn’t mean companies can’t pick anyone they want and most of them don’t want to pull permits and have an idiot from the government in the plant screwing things up. The last plant I know that did that found themselves doing ADA bathrooms in a facility that has strict physical requirements so that anyone working there can physically escape if there is a toxic chemical release. You can’t work there if you are in a wheel chair. They also had to have huge closets full of folding chairs in case everyone had to shelter in place. Crazy stupid stuff like that because the inspector helped them.

Most controls companies are half engineers and half technicians and it’s hard to tell them apart. The engineering ethics requirements from most state boards specifically disallows design-build which basically outlaws controls PEs. As licensed electricians they can’t do design work either. So neither license makes any sense.


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