# Melting breaker



## Deeegzz (Apr 5, 2021)

Also keep in mine, I tried it in a new breaker on a different part of the bussing.
No overheating anywhere else in the system


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

This happens a lot. Even more when they load side a bunch of pv panels onto a plug in 100 a main.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

When Tesla was allowing 100 amps current on the chargers via dip-switch settings the conduit would sometimes get smoking hot even with 1/0 cu conductors going back to the panel and all terminations at proper torque. But inside the wall chargers were 200 amp slow blow fuses.


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## Deeegzz (Apr 5, 2021)

macmikeman said:


> This happens a lot. Even more when they load side a bunch of pv panels onto a plug in 100 a main.


Our engineer did mention something about him seeing the same thing in a PV system.
I just don’t understand.
There was only about 5amps worth of stuff running through the home plus the 47.2 amps of the car charger.
What would make that happen


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## Deeegzz (Apr 5, 2021)

macmikeman said:


> When Tesla was allowing 100 amps current on the chargers via dip-switch settings the conduit would sometimes get smoking hot even with 1/0 cu conductors going back to the panel and all terminations at proper torque. But inside the wall chargers were 200 amp slow blow fuses.


I mean I understand that. 100amps is quite a bit.
I’m talking about 48 amps on a panel rated for 125amps


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

I'll suggest too much load in too short of a time frame, which is what the circuit breakers are supposed to be able to handle / trip out on, but they don't always obviously. The best bet is to upgrade the liability insurance a few million if you / your employer is going to continue rolling down this road. I'm out on both systems , won't touch it with a ten footer. Cause nobody really knows yet.


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## Deeegzz (Apr 5, 2021)

macmikeman said:


> I'll suggest too much load in too short of a time frame, which is what the circuit breakers are supposed to be able to handle / trip out on, but they don't always obviously. The best bet is to upgrade the liability insurance a few million if you / your employer is going to continue rolling down this road. I'm out on both systems , won't touch it with a ten footer. Cause nobody really knows yet.


yeah, weird man

it’s literally pulling the correct amount of amps. 
48amp charge rate. 
my reading was 47.2. 
oh well
good thing customer called us after a few days


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

I'm working on a new theory of relativity as we speak. It centers around aluminum busbars and electricity mixed with flat earth believers that don't know a thing when it comes to sailing . I am almost at the point where I have discovered that heat can be generated in amounts double the energy invested into the system by merely hooking it all up to trendy thingamajigs.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Is it possible the charger is putting out harmonics.


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## Deeegzz (Apr 5, 2021)

backstay said:


> Is it possible the charger is putting out harmonics.


Haven’t thought of that. I honestly don’t know much about harmonics. Just did a quick search and it there seems to be lots of tal about ev chargers causing lots of harmonics and potential harm to the electrical system.

I’d have to educate myself on that topic. 

I did a couple searches and looks like this is very common. Yet, everyone’s response online seems to always be “breaker wasn’t installed properly”or “wasn’t torqued down correctly”

since I was there and personally re did all of those things I can confidently say that everything was proper.


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

Stains on the buss look strange. Any chance it got water on top of the breaker


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## Deeegzz (Apr 5, 2021)

gpop said:


> Stains on the buss look strange. Any chance it got water on top of the breaker


No chance. 

Probably the breaker. It was melting for a few nights. Every time he plugged his car in overnight.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

I'm thinking harmonics is not so much when the step down transformer is a single phase, not gonna be a factor. 

I am almost at the point where I have discovered that heat can be generated in amounts double the energy invested into the system by merely hooking it all up to trendy thingamajigs.


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

Deeegzz said:


> yeah, weird man
> 
> it’s literally pulling the correct amount of amps.
> 48amp charge rate.
> ...


Where are you taking that reading?


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

MikeFL said:


> Where are you taking that reading?


I imagine he's clamped around the wire. Maybe a fall of potential test?


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

splatz said:


> I imagine he's clamped around the wire. Maybe a fall of potential test?


I'd be curious as to what it is:
1) at the charger
2) at the panel where the branch circuit leaves, and,
3) at the service/ meter, since he says only about another 5A being consumed by other things on that service.

Obviously it's blowing off heat at the panel.
I'd expect there's more current going into that panel than reaching the charger.
Harmonics can cause loss of efficiency at the transformer among other places.

What am I missing here? Is this a typo?


Deeegzz said:


> Wall box *48amp charger* was installed last week with an energy management module so they could get the full 48amps charge rate on their existing service.
> 
> I show up, *60amp charger* is completely melted and still on. See attached photos.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

Deeegzz said:


> Haven’t thought of that. I honestly don’t know much about harmonics. Just did a quick search and it there seems to be lots of tal about ev chargers causing lots of harmonics and potential harm to the electrical system.
> 
> I’d have to educate myself on that topic.
> 
> ...


If you suspect harmonics .... put your meter on HZ , anything substantially over 60 is a big red flag


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

MikeFL said:


> I'd be curious as to what it is:
> 1) at the charger
> 2) at the panel where the branch circuit leaves, and,
> 3) at the service/ meter, since he says only about another 5A being consumed by other things on that service.
> ...


I think he meant 60A breaker, not 60A charger. 

I suspect there is resistance between the stab and the breaker generating heat, like a glowing bad connection under there. That's cooking the breaker. That resistance would show up in a fall of potetnial test. You should not have significant voltage drop from the bus to the breaker terminals. If you do, either the breaker itself is no good, or you have resistance where you should not in the connection between the stab and the breaker.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

splatz said:


> I think he meant 60A breaker, not 60A charger.
> 
> I suspect there is resistance between the stab and the breaker generating heat, like a glowing bad connection under there. That's cooking the breaker. That resistance would show up in a fall of potetnial test. You should not have significant voltage drop from the bus to the breaker terminals. If you do, either the breaker itself is no good, or you have resistance where you should not in the connection between the stab and the breaker.


he said a second new breaker on a different spot on the buss burned up in the next day or so
the wire coming to the breaker seems to be ok

could it be that it is a BR breaker on a Bryant buss ???


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## Quickservice (Apr 23, 2020)

Almost Retired said:


> If you suspect harmonics .... put your meter on HZ , anything substantially over 60 is a big red flag


Wouldn't it just about have to be harmonics if he installed a second breaker in a different slot on the bus and it ALSO burned up?


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

Quickservice said:


> Wouldn't it just about have to be harmonics if he installed a second breaker in a different slot on the bus and it ALSO burned up?


check post #20
this is a second possibility, not proven, just a theory


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## Forge Boyz (Nov 7, 2014)

Quickservice said:


> Wouldn't it just about have to be harmonics if he installed a second breaker in a different slot on the bus and it ALSO burned up?


What about just having a junky buss? I would not intentionally install a stab on AL bus panel in high draw applications like that.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Deeegzz said:


> yeah, weird man
> 
> it’s literally pulling the correct amount of amps.
> 48amp charge rate.
> ...


From same stock get those BREAKERS tested- I betcha they're counterfeit... Unless the buss stabs are slightly thin there and not making nice snug/ tight contact. Loose connections are the leading cause of electrical fires. 

This is why I say, and I'll say it again... these 1500 watt space heaters shouldn't be able to plug into a standard receptacle.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

Forge Boyz said:


> What about just having a junky buss? I would not intentionally install a stab on AL bus panel in high draw applications like that.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


the buss may possibly have gotten surface corrosion where it has been exposed for years
but the plug in 125 main has not burned up and was right next to the first burned up breaker
i seriously doubt the buss material has anything to do with it,
he could try using al dope on the stabs to see if that helps, but i doubt it

this is an old bryant buss, it is likely the buss is tinned copper and not al
most were back in the day


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

I would not assume anything about the new Eaton BR compared to the original Bryant. They could be counterfeits, could be a bad batch, could be the bus has degraded from whatever is causing that odd staining @gpop mentioned, could be the stabs are not rated for this current but this is the first time it's actually pulled it. 

Along with the fall of potential test on the failing breaker I'd want to see FOP on the main, I never thought of this but I guess you could look at fall of potential from the hot on the main to the hot on the charger breaker. An IR scan would not hurt. 

Spot readings of draw may not tell the whole story, you'd want to monitor this over a full 24 hour period with a charging cycle in there.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Almost Retired said:


> the buss may possibly have gotten surface corrosion where it has been exposed for years
> but the plug in 125 main has not burned up and was right next to the first burned up breaker
> i seriously doubt the buss material has anything to do with it,
> he could try using al dope on the stabs to see if that helps, but i doubt it
> ...


Not for nothing but, that's what didn't set right with me...it did appear to be an old Bryant panel, and Long Island is Bryant/ Murray country. I'm surprised a panel tjhat old was capable of supporting a continuous 48a load at all, considering all of the additional load that it must have been exposed to over the years. Looks to date way back, and AFAIC that panel owes that homeowner nothing anyway.

I'd put in one of those trailer panels, 200a at the minimum with a 200a main, 200a feed-through buss, and then use 2 of those available 8 slots to feed such a large continuous load like a Tesla charger.


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

It is a charger, if I put my power meter on it and measure current THD I will get 30-60% meaning about half of the current is pure harmonics. If I put an oscilloscope on it so I can see what it looks like, it will look like rabbit ears.






Harmonics sources from industrial loads


1. Three phase power converters 2. DC drives 3. AC drives 4. Impact operating condition 5. Thevenin’s Equivalent - Arcing Devices 6. Saturable ...




www.brainkart.com





This is where we need to stop for a minute. Imagine if the load just drew one huge spike of current 60 times per second. The RMS average may indeed be 48 A but the peak current is practically a short circuit. Could this happen? Yes. A very simple DC power supply (wall wart) is just a single diode and a big capacitor. Two diodes is more efficient and cheaper but we can’t control the output voltage. Change these for SCRs and now we can control when it switches on to control output and we get the classic “rabbit ear” look. This is what 95% of DC power supplies are. Also at this point power factor is about 0.5 typically, so the transformer sees horrendous KVA compared to kw. Going a step further if we upgrade from SCRs to MOSFETs or IGBTs we can toggle the power both on and off. We can also insert an inductor in front of the capacitor. This is an active rectifier which can control power factor and harmonics, at triple the cost for parts.

How does this affect the wire or in this case the breaker/bus connection? Electrically we can create any waveform by adding together a set of waves that are multiples. So for this one we add together a lot of odd harmonics (180 Hz, 300 Hz, 420 Hz…). Google 400 Hz power used in aircraft and you will see teeny transformers and oversized wiring.

Transformers do not respond the same to all harmonics. Some are fine, some work better, some worse than 60 Hz. There is software to predict this but the easiest way in practice is to measure it. Obviously even if the RMS average is 48 A if the rabbit ears are big spikes they temporarily overload everything, even the transformer. That is where we watch the THD for voltage. POCO specs are do not exceed 5%. If it does either the service (transformer) size must increase or the load needs to be cleaned up.

As the frequency increases the tendency is for the current to ride only along the outer edge of the wire. So it acts like a higher ampacity than you measure. With a power meter this is easy to see because the voltage will start to drop when the current peaks, causing THD in the voltage. Anything over 5% is bad. That is probably why Tesla is spewing huge breakers and wire sizes despite a “48 A load”.

Not to be outdone I’m sure the panelboard manufacturer refers to “standard service conditions” and I doubt you will find a “charger grade” panelboard. This is nothing new. Talk to industrial guys with huge fork truck or AGV charging installations.

So how to fix it? You can scream at the breaker manufacturer and the charger company…good luck with that. First thing you need to do though is get a cheap single phase power meter on there to measure THDv. Amprobe sells nice ones you can buy on Amazon cheap. Amprobe is the Fluke budget brand. If it’s over 5% THD voltage the transformer is overloaded. Reduce harmonics or try to convince POCO to go up on service size. And I suspect this is your issue anyway.

This might be the issue anyway….what happens to current (and voltage) when say the HVAC kicks on? Does voltage nose dive and current go way up? This can happen even without harmonics. It’s a common scenario with generators and dinky transformers.

If it’s just the panel you can go up to a 200 or 400 A panel or one with feed throughs so you can go to a 100 A breaker and bigger wire. Then put in a panel mount 60 A stand alone breaker or fused disconnect as required by the charger. The problem is you have serious coordination issues…no way to coordinate the 100 A and a 125 A main. Granted that 100 A should never trip. This is doing what he aircraft industry does…oversize everything.

Or contact TCI or MTE about buying a harmonic filter. It will be big, bigger than the charger. It will be expensive. And it will be what the charger manufacturer should be designing into their stuff. But it will clean up the harmonics. Assuming that’s really the issue.


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## CraziFuzzy (Jul 10, 2019)

When hunting for a heat causing effect like this, you need to get the voltage drop, not just the current. During charging, yes, measure current, but also measure the voltage at the terminals, the voltage at the main, and the voltage at the EVSE. At 48A, it doesn't take a lot of voltage drop to start runaway damage.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

paulengr said:


> It is a charger, if I put my power meter on it and measure current THD I will get 30-60% meaning about half of the current is pure harmonics. If I put an oscilloscope on it so I can see what it looks like, it will look like rabbit ears.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It’s just the Tesla’s doing it?
I believe the car charging program controls the charge rate. I can see them pulsing the charge quickly in an attempt to keep the draw low enough for consumers to be able to use at a dwelling unit. 
Tesla wants people to be able to charge quickly enough each night to be able to drive all day long.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

The circuit is single phase not three phase. Are harmonics really an issue? We do know something is cooking this breaker, but .........................


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## Deeegzz (Apr 5, 2021)

MikeFL said:


> I'd be curious as to what it is:
> 1) at the charger
> 2) at the panel where the branch circuit leaves, and,
> 3) at the service/ meter, since he says only about another 5A being consumed by other things on that service.
> ...


apologies. 
i meant. “60 amp breaker”


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## Deeegzz (Apr 5, 2021)

MikeFL said:


> Where are you taking that reading?


At the breaker.
At the charger 

on the charger app


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## Deeegzz (Apr 5, 2021)

Almost Retired said:


> If you suspect harmonics .... put your meter on HZ , anything substantially over 60 is a big red flag


I’ll try this out when we get back to swap the panel


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## Deeegzz (Apr 5, 2021)

splatz said:


> I would not assume anything about the new Eaton BR compared to the original Bryant. They could be counterfeits, could be a bad batch, could be the bus has degraded from whatever is causing that odd staining @gpop mentioned, could be the stabs are not rated for this current but this is the first time it's actually pulled it.
> 
> Along with the fall of potential test on the failing breaker I'd want to see FOP on the main, I never thought of this but I guess you could look at fall of potential from the hot on the main to the hot on the charger breaker. An IR scan would not hurt.
> 
> Spot readings of draw may not tell the whole story, you'd want to monitor this over a full 24 hour period with a charging cycle in there.


I can’t monitor for than a few minutes. It heats excessively and start to melt within 5 minutes.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

Deeegzz said:


> I can’t monitor for than a few minutes. It heats excessively and start to melt within 5 minutes.


that is a REALLY bad problem !!!

the main is not having problems, this points me to the buss/breaker connection
it might be the buss
it might be the wrong breaker brand on the buss

dont even hook the breaker for the charger up again, take the wires off of it
get the new panel and breakers in there Before you try it again


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

Everyone has seen breakers like this burn up, usually feeding HVAC. Once the bus extensions have heated up like this, they'll never be able to conduct the same as before. 

I get the idea that it went like this.......

1) The charger was installed then the breaker burned up. 

2) A new breaker was installed in the same place. It burned up too.

3) Another new breaker was installed in a different location and it held. 

If so, then the problem was the first breaker that burned up (not surprising actually) and it was replaced by a new breaker put in the same place. After being overheated, the bus extensions were no longer capable of high current without overheating. 

The only solution at this point is to replace the panel or at least the interior, if possible.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

micromind said:


> Everyone has seen breakers like this burn up, usually feeding HVAC. Once the bus extensions have heated up like this, they'll never be able to conduct the same as before.
> 
> I get the idea that it went like this.......
> 
> ...


delete comment 2
he stated the 2nd breaker was put in a new spot

it is possible he is on his third brkr but i havent noticed it if so


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Deeegzz said:


> I can’t monitor for than a few minutes. It heats excessively and start to melt within 5 minutes.


I didn't realize it burned up immediately, so your current reading was the important one - you caught it right when the issue was occurring - no need to leave it in place and monitor over time.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Almost Retired said:


> delete comment 2
> he stated the 2nd breaker was put in a new spot
> 
> it is possible he is on his third brkr but i havent noticed it if so


But...
If you KEEP doing what you've always done...
You'll ALWAYS get what you ALWAYS got.


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## Deeegzz (Apr 5, 2021)

micromind said:


> Everyone has seen breakers like this burn up, usually feeding HVAC. Once the bus extensions have heated up like this, they'll never be able to conduct the same as before.
> 
> I get the idea that it went like this.......
> 
> ...


Incorrect

1) first breaker installed (customer noticed fish smell since first use)

2) customer called us a week later

3)I arrive and replace breaker


4) breaker excessive heating within 5 minutes. upon plugging in car

5)removed energy management device from the equation and tried again.

6)same result 

The plan for now is to replace panel and go from there.
Already setting everything up to get a disconnect from the utility and swap the main


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## SWDweller (Dec 9, 2020)

If you do not have a power meter and want a quick check for harmonics take your VOM put it on HZ and measure the lines. Your VOM is not able to tell you what harmonic but it will tell you the highest harmonic. Harmonics are multiples of 60. Only the odd ones create the biggest problems. Highest does not mean the strongest.
Your reading something close to 180 Hz you have the 3rd harmonic and so on.
Numbers will probably not be exact due to the accuracy of your meter and the equipment being measured. 

Next check your grounding connections. Tight and clean is a good thing. 

Hint if your thinking surge arrestor, your wrong will not help this condition.

California is about to get hammered when the EV tide flows in. So many people will be out there buying El cheap o chargers, possibly not UL or anyone safety listed. When the harmonics get back on to the distribution. All of a sudden you will see the POCO's measuring and charging for the harmonics on their system.

I once worked closely with a POCO in Arizona that was in the early stages of measuring harmonics for commercial and industrial customers. They were preparing for the paper work that they would have to submit for a change in rates. Arizona has an elected commission that approves all electric rates.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

LGLS said:


> From same stock get those BREAKERS tested- I betcha they're counterfeit... Unless the buss stabs are slightly thin there and not making nice snug/ tight contact. Loose connections are the leading cause of electrical fires.
> 
> This is why I say, and I'll say it again... these 1500 watt space heaters shouldn't be able to plug into a standard receptacle.


Absolutely. Maximum plug in is 80% with no other loads. So a 15 amp bedroom circuit should only have 1440 watts plugged in.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Is that a main lug panel? I see a 125 amp breaker in the middle, what is that used for? Could that be creating most of the heat and the rest fron the EV wall port?
It could be just humidity and not getting wet. Aluminum oxide is an insulator and I doubt the older panels had any coating on the bus bar. Was the buss bar cleaned and oxide inhibitor applied before the 60 amp was installed? Once the bar gets heated to a certain point it should be replaced if heavy loads will be applied.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

kb1jb1 said:


> Absolutely. Maximum plug in is 80% with no other loads. So a 15 amp bedroom circuit should only have 1440 watts plugged in.


I go into peoples houses on call outs that the breaker popped off for the three bedrooms. One circuit for 3 bedrooms, 3 portable air conditioners going , usually 3 tv's and game stations as well. Various lamps. Duh...


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

macmikeman said:


> I go into peoples houses on call outs that the breaker popped off for the three bedrooms. One circuit for 3 bedrooms, 3 portable air conditioners going , usually 3 tv's and game stations as well. Various lamps. Duh...


Try to explain that to some people. Hre in NY we have to worry about the electric heaters. Along the comment of LGLS, I have customers with 2 or 3 - 1500 watt heaters on one circuit and their comment is, " we never had that problem before".


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Before Costco came to the islands I didn't run into these problems much. Now everybody's got three of everything you can imagine plugged in and running....


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## Deeegzz (Apr 5, 2021)

kb1jb1 said:


> Is that a main lug panel? I see a 125 amp breaker in the middle, what is that used for? Could that be creating most of the heat and the rest fron the EV wall port?
> It could be just humidity and not getting wet. Aluminum oxide is an insulator and I doubt the older panels had any coating on the bus bar. Was the buss bar cleaned and oxide inhibitor applied before the 60 amp was installed? Once the bar gets heated to a certain point it should be replaced if heavy loads will be applied.


125amp main disconnect 
Yes, main Lug panel.

this house is about 150ft from the ocean.


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## Deeegzz (Apr 5, 2021)

SWDweller said:


> If you do not have a power meter and want a quick check for harmonics take your VOM put it on HZ and measure the lines. Your VOM is not able to tell you what harmonic but it will tell you the highest harmonic. Harmonics are multiples of 60. Only the odd ones create the biggest problems. Highest does not mean the strongest.
> Your reading something close to 180 Hz you have the 3rd harmonic and so on.
> Numbers will probably not be exact due to the accuracy of your meter and the equipment being measured.
> 
> ...


I’ll try this if I get to go back before the main swap 

if I can’t try it before. I’ll try after we put the main in.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

macmikeman said:


> Before Costco came to the islands I didn't run into these problems much. Now everybody's got three of everything you can imagine plugged in and running....


Does Costco there put pineapple on their pizza?
Friday is date night so I take my wife to Costco for a hotdog and soda and she gets pizza. Total cost $4.90.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Deeegzz said:


> 125amp main disconnect
> Yes, main Lug panel.
> 
> this house is about 150ft from the ocean.


Salt water mist. Here the houses by the water get maybe 15 years out of the outside equipment.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

kb1jb1 said:


> Does Costco there put pineapple on their pizza?
> Friday is date night so I take my wife to Costco for a hotdog and soda and she gets pizza. Total cost $4.90.


Wow. Big spender. Date night at Costco , I like this...... I'll have to check next time I go get me a hot dog. It's the only thing I ever tried eating at that place.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

Deeegzz said:


> Incorrect
> 
> 1) first breaker installed (customer noticed fish smell since first use)
> 
> ...


Explain post # 2 please.


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## Deeegzz (Apr 5, 2021)

Our installers were there putting in a new car charger circuit. (I was not there)

when they finished the install, they always verify it is working by plugging in the car and doing a walkthrough with the customer.

the car charger gets plugged in on the other side of the home.
To my understanding, once they walked the customer through they left and said ok. Everything works.

Now, the reason I returned to that install was on a callback. 
customer called and said his house smelled fishy. Specifically, near the panel.

when I talked to the customer, I asked when did the smell first appear and he said, “now that I think back, every time I plugged the car in, the smell would appear in the home.”

The main is a flush mount main so that makes sense why it was penetrating inside the home. 
the burnt plastic fish smell is very strong. It’s still stuck in my nose lmao

Did I answer your question correctly?


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

kb1jb1 said:


> Does Costco there put pineapple on their pizza?
> Friday is date night so I take my wife to Costco for a hotdog and soda and she gets pizza. Total cost $4.90.


Who do you think you are, huh? A Rockerfella?


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

macmikeman said:


> Wow. Big spender. Date night at Costco , I like this...... I'll have to check next time I go get me a hot dog. It's the only thing I ever tried eating at that place.


NOT the rotisserie Chicken?


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## SWDweller (Dec 9, 2020)

Micromind
Do you mean post #2 or line item 2 in your quoted material.

If you are talking about my post what do you want to know?


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Deeegzz said:


> Our installers were there putting in a new car charger circuit. (I was not there)
> 
> when they finished the install, they always verify it is working by plugging in the car and doing a walkthrough with the customer.
> 
> ...


Do you GFCI protect the EV receptacle? My edition of the 2017 NEC book did not have the GFCI requirement for EV receptacles but later editions do.. Backstay I believe updated me on it. My book said one thing and his said another. GFCI would not prevent the burn out but AFCI should.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Bolt on Square -D panel. Square- D bolt on breaker. Try that and see if it goes the way of the first unit did .


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

macmikeman said:


> Bolt on Square -D panel. Square- D bolt on breaker. Try that and see if it goes the way of the first unit did .


How about a Bulldog bolt on panel?


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

macmikeman said:


> Bolt on Square -D panel. Square- D bolt on breaker. Try that and see if it goes the way of the first unit did .


a new BR will be sufficient if it is the condition of the buss bar


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

SWDweller said:


> Micromind
> Do you mean post #2 or line item 2 in your quoted material.
> 
> If you are talking about my post what do you want to know?


Post #2 where the OP stated that the breaker installed in another slot was ok.


----------



## Deeegzz (Apr 5, 2021)

kb1jb1 said:


> Do you GFCI protect the EV receptacle? My edition of the 2017 NEC book did not have the GFCI requirement for EV receptacles but later editions do.. Backstay I believe updated me on it. My book said one thing and his said another. GFCI would not prevent the burn out but AFCI should.


Neither gfci Breaker or receptacle is required.
Gfci is built into unit. 
the unit is hardwired


----------



## Deeegzz (Apr 5, 2021)

micromind said:


> Post #2 where the OP stated that the breaker installed in another slot was ok.


Ahh.
Miscommunication.

I was referring to no heating occurring in other terminations. 

heating still occurring on breaker


----------



## RUSKES (6 mo ago)

Deeegzz said:


> Also keep in mine, I tried it in a new breaker on a different part of the bussing.
> No overheating anywhere else in the system


So what now


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Third time. Single phase circuit. 120/240 volts. Why are we talking about harmonics ?

Please enlighten me on this.


----------



## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

Deeegzz said:


> Ahh.
> Miscommunication.
> 
> I was referring to no heating occurring in other terminations.
> ...


Lol.....makes sense now.


----------



## Deeegzz (Apr 5, 2021)

micromind said:


> Lol.....makes sense now.


Yeah sorry man lol. I’ve been so busy, my responses are typed up so quick that I mis word a couple of things. Apologies.


----------



## RUSKES (6 mo ago)

macmikeman said:


> Third time. Single phase circuit. 120/240 volts. Why are we talking about harmonics ?
> 
> Please enlighten me on this.


because it is a fun word


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

I agree. But after I shot it down the first time they ought to have clammed up.


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

macmikeman said:


> Third time. Single phase circuit. 120/240 volts. Why are we talking about harmonics ?
> 
> Please enlighten me on this.


I thought that harmonics effects the neutral or grounded conductor? EV wall ports have no grounded conductor.


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Deeegzz said:


> Neither gfci Breaker or receptacle is required.
> Gfci is built into unit.
> the unit is hardwired


I miss read. The guys plugged the wall thing into the car. I read it that you plugged the wall port into a receptacle.


----------



## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

Deeegzz said:


> Yeah sorry man lol. I’ve been so busy, my responses are typed up so quick that I mis word a couple of things. Apologies.


Lol.....Every one of us has been there......more than once.......

I'd bet a lot that a new panel, or at least new bussing, and a new breaker will be fine.


----------



## Deeegzz (Apr 5, 2021)

micromind said:


> Lol.....Every one of us has been there......more than once.......
> 
> I'd bet a lot that a new panel, or at least new bussing, and a new breaker will be fine.


just waiting on the proper paperwork to get filed and we will be putting in that new panel.

luckily it’s far enough from the gas meter so we can just replace. It’s an underground feed.

our county is no longer allowing like for likes on main panel swaps.
In the past we could keep the panel in same location regardless if it was near the gas or not if we were doing a like for like.

now we have to follow the PG&E green book space requirements regardless if we are upsizing the service or not.


----------



## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

macmikeman said:


> Wow. Big spender. Date night at Costco , I like this...... I'll have to check next time I go get me a hot dog. It's the only thing I ever tried eating at that place.


Just got back from Costco.
No canned vegetables for sale at all. Not a single pallet available…. Roof leak last night soaked everything in that department. 
Sounded like a local food bank was about to get a big truck load donation.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

kb1jb1 said:


> How about a Bulldog bolt on panel?


now YER SPEAKING my LANGUAGE!

gEEZ... EVEN A fuse BOX !


macmikeman said:


> Third time. Single phase circuit. 120/240 volts. Why are we talking about harmonics ?
> 
> Please enlighten me on this.


The harmonics aren't affecting his utility billing, but it IS affecting the intrinsic heat load on the breaker, same reason "super neutrals" came about.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

macmikeman said:


> I agree. But after I shot it down the first time they ought to have clammed up.


No because as usual, you're wrong. You are an INsSALLER mac, NOT a trained electrician and likely know nothing other than what you picked up on the street. 

Let the adults discuss this, go play with your cartoon memes... they're more your speed.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Well I'll stick my neck out and say it. I don't think harmonics are a factor here. I can see how harmonics can cause trouble in transformers. I can see how harmonics can overload shared neutrals in multiwire circuits. I could maybe buy harmonics fooling a truerms amp meter. I don't see how harmonics could fool simple thermal-magnetic breakers. I don't think there's anything esoteric like harmonic resonance causing vibration affecting just that one breaker's stabs. 

If someone can give me even a basic explanation of how harmonics could cause that breaker to heat up, I will buy it, but just attributing it to harmonics whenever you get a head scratcher problem, that amounts to electrical voodoo, I don't buy that.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

splatz said:


> Well I'll stick my neck out and say it. I don't think harmonics are a factor here. I can see how harmonics can cause trouble in transformers. I can see how harmonics can overload shared neutrals in multiwire circuits. I could maybe buy harmonics fooling a truerms amp meter. I don't see how harmonics could fool simple thermal-magnetic breakers. I don't think there's anything esoteric like harmonic resonance causing vibration affecting just that one breaker's stabs.
> 
> If someone can give me even a basic explanation of how harmonics could cause that breaker to heat up, I will buy it, but just attributing it to harmonics whenever you get a head scratcher problem, that amounts to electrical voodoo, I don't buy that.


Impossible for YOU to understand. Although it would be odd this "standard" Telsa charger is affecting this breaker this bad, but doesn't seem to be an intrinsic or systemic issue for anyone else.


----------



## splatz (May 23, 2015)

LGLS said:


> Impossible for YOU to understand.


Dead sure tell that you're full of ****


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

splatz said:


> Dead sure tell that you're full of ****


Ah ya caught me...


----------



## RUSKES (6 mo ago)

splatz said:


> Well I'll stick my neck out and say it. I don't think harmonics are a factor here. I can see how harmonics can cause trouble in transformers. I can see how harmonics can overload shared neutrals in multiwire circuits. I could maybe buy harmonics fooling a truerms amp meter. I don't see how harmonics could fool simple thermal-magnetic breakers. I don't think there's anything esoteric like harmonic resonance causing vibration affecting just that one breaker's stabs.
> 
> If someone can give me even a basic explanation of how harmonics could cause that breaker to heat up, I will buy it, but just attributing it to harmonics whenever you get a head scratcher problem, that amounts to electrical voodoo, I don't buy that.


But we love harmonics


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

LGLS said:


> now YER SPEAKING my LANGUAGE!
> 
> gEEZ... EVEN A fuse BOX !
> 
> The harmonics aren't affecting his utility billing, but it IS affecting the intrinsic heat load on the breaker, same reason "super neutrals" came about.


A fuse box with a supply of pennies.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

RUSKES said:


> But we love harmonics


Especially 4-part harmonics, like barbershop quartets?


----------



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

splatz said:


> Well I'll stick my neck out and say it. I don't think harmonics are a factor here. I can see how harmonics can cause trouble in transformers. I can see how harmonics can overload shared neutrals in multiwire circuits. I could maybe buy harmonics fooling a truerms amp meter. I don't see how harmonics could fool simple thermal-magnetic breakers. I don't think there's anything esoteric like harmonic resonance causing vibration affecting just that one breaker's stabs.
> 
> If someone can give me even a basic explanation of how harmonics could cause that breaker to heat up, I will buy it, but just attributing it to harmonics whenever you get a head scratcher problem, that amounts to electrical voodoo, I don't buy that.


To heat that breaker in minutes would seem to indicate the charger is to blame. That buss is rated for 100 amps at least. Which means it can pass twice that. To be heating a breaker in minutes, even a corroded one at 48 amps just doesn’t seem possible.


----------



## Deeegzz (Apr 5, 2021)

backstay said:


> To heat that breaker in minutes would seem to indicate the charger is to blame. That buss is rated for 100 amps at least. Which means it can pass twice that. To be heating a breaker in minutes, even a corroded one at 48 amps just doesn’t seem possible.


My reading was 47.2amps
Hence all of my confusion. 
😢 lol


----------



## ohm it hertz (Dec 2, 2020)

Would a $200 GFCI breaker have prevented all of this, exposing a clearly faulty wallbox charger? Replacing the service panel and bringing the bond and ground up to code seems counterintuitive to profit margins.


----------



## Deeegzz (Apr 5, 2021)

ohm it hertz said:


> Would a $200 GFCI breaker have prevented all of this, exposing a clearly faulty wallbox charger? Replacing the service panel and bringing the bond and ground up to code seems counterintuitive to profit margins.


the panel has plastic burned onto the bussing And over main breaker. 
What do you suggest?

tell the customer oh well and just install a gfci breaker? 
the right thing to do in my eyes is to give him a new panel with a fully functional bussing without plastic burned all over it.

of course it’s counterintuitive to profits. This isn’t about profits. It’s about taking care of our customer.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Deeegzz said:


> the panel has plastic burned onto the bussing And over main breaker.
> What do you suggest?
> 
> tell the customer oh well and just install a gfci breaker?
> ...


I guess....
Some people, don't know when to quit.
"Ahab has to go hunt his whale...."


----------



## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

backstay said:


> To heat that breaker in minutes would seem to indicate the charger is to blame. That buss is rated for 100 amps at least. Which means it can pass twice that. To be heating a breaker in minutes, even a corroded one at 48 amps just doesn’t seem possible.


you are forgetting the condition of the buss ... salt mist for decades , 150' from the ocean
and therefor corrosion on the buss surface
corrosion = resistance = heat


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I've seen these melt before, even when dialed to lower settings. Last one was about 6 yrs ago. Older siemens panel. Aluminum I think as well. The newest install I'm working on has 6 of these chargers, but I'm using a bolt in breaker panel. Don't get that in resi too often.


----------



## CAUSA (Apr 3, 2013)

macmikeman said:


> Third time. Single phase circuit. 120/240 volts. Why are we talking about harmonics ?
> 
> Please enlighten me on this.


Pauleng, is 100% correct,

harmonics, can be induced in single phase or 3phase systems,

the EV chargers are going to play havoc on the NA grid system. CA will be the first grid system to follow

for those interested.



http://www.siesamx.com/marcas/inelap/data_in/FILTRO_3RA_siesa.pdf



To the O.P,
Larger panel and service, with bolt in capabilities only.


----------



## splatz (May 23, 2015)

ohm it hertz said:


> Would a $200 GFCI breaker have prevented all of this, exposing a clearly faulty wallbox charger? Replacing the service panel and bringing the bond and ground up to code seems counterintuitive to profit margins.


I am not following - there's nothing here that indicates a ground fault. If there's a ground fault, the breaker will just trip, and you'll have to find the fault and fix it. Once you fix the ground fault, you don't need the breaker. So you'd kind of be using the breaker as a very expensive way to detect a ground fault.


----------



## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

LGLS said:


> I guess....
> Some people, don't know when to quit.
> "Ahab has to go hunt his whale...."


The OP is putting people before dirty profits and YOUR’E finding fault with that?
Up state NY has really been a good thing for you, sort of an epiphany for you.


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I think (gfci) in this case it would have melted a very expensive breaker and the buss again.


----------



## Quickservice (Apr 23, 2020)

Forge Boyz said:


> What about just having a junky buss? I would not intentionally install a stab on AL bus panel in high draw applications like that.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


Excellent point.... I have encountered aluminum bus bars (Especially in NEMA 3R panels) that were heavily oxidized.


----------



## splatz (May 23, 2015)

CAUSA said:


> Pauleng, is 100% correct,
> 
> harmonics, can be induced in single phase or 3phase systems,
> 
> ...


That article mentions the problems with shared neutrals and transformers, and power factor but I don't see how that heats up the stab connection on this breaker. 

@paulengr also mentions the harmonic frequencies increasing the skin effect and that heating up connections, I am afraid I just don't think that's the issue. I don't see it fooling a thermal-magnetic breaker. This is a battery charger, lots of battery chargers work fine on standard wiring. Harmonics are present on the load side of VFDs, with electronic ballasts etc., data centers, welders, forklift chargers, etc., and zillions of these are running and have been running for decades without 48A loads burning up 60A breakers in minutes. 

If my answer has to sound brainier, call it an application of Occam's razor. 

Two possible theories

a crappy old stab on aluminum bus not far from the ocean running a heavy load for the first time in its life 
versus
the invisible unmeasured harmonics boogieman 

Smart money is on the simple obvious solution, not the esoteric one. EVEN if you think it's harmonics, since you don't have the test and measurement means to prove that's the issue, your next step troubleshooting step is to eliminate the bus from the equation. I'd bet a duffel bag full of $100 bills against a bucket of **** that if you used a feeder tap and a 60A disconnect you'd be done quick cheap and easy.


----------



## ohm it hertz (Dec 2, 2020)

Deeegzz said:


> the panel has plastic burned onto the bussing And over main breaker.
> What do you suggest?
> 
> tell the customer oh well and just install a gfci breaker?
> ...


Well I would be out of business pretty fast if I suggested installing a GFCI breaker in a melted panel and walking away.  

I wouldn't have installed an EV on that service to begin with. The more you overcomplicate the install, the more things go wrong. Since we still don't know what is causing this, I suggested trying a GFCI breaker to see if it trips and when it trips. It's better than paying three employees hours of labor and not figuring anything out. I would think it's better to try eliminating problems and narrowing things down. 

At the end of the day, this is also about profits as much as taking care of the customer. Take notes so this sort of thing doesn't happen to another customer.

My money is on the load shedder or the charger. I think they were both installed correctly.

That's all I'm saying.


----------



## ohm it hertz (Dec 2, 2020)

Also, there's this, right from the Wallbox manual. Could this have anything to do with it? I don't see how radio frequency would affect thermal magnetic breakers, but just throwing it out there.


----------



## splatz (May 23, 2015)

ohm it hertz said:


> Also, there's this, right from the Wallbox manual. Could this have anything to do with it? I don't see how radio frequency would affect thermal magnetic breakers, but just throwing it out there.


That's just saying that the devices creates radio frequency interference and it could mess with wireless stuff - probably not at cell phone / wifi frequencies but maybe, bluetooth, radio, TV, walkie talkie type radios, etc. It wouldn't affect the power.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

460 Delta said:


> The OP is putting people before dirty profits and YOUR’E finding fault with that?
> Up state NY has really been a good thing for you, sort of an epiphany for you.


You're shooting from the hip buddy. It's not about the OP at all.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Almost Retired said:


> you are forgetting the condition of the buss ... salt mist for decades , 150' from the ocean
> and therefor corrosion on the buss surface
> corrosion = resistance = heat


Smart money is on... the OP stated in one post "One of our "installers" did the initial installation," The OP is the follow-up. This is telling, likely 1 or 2 NON-Electricians being dispatched on all the Tesla sales on a fixed contract w the dealership... for peanuts likely. Even if not, just calling the person who did the initial job an "installer" and not an apprentice, Journeyman, Helper, Mechanic or Jr' Mechanic is also quite a clue here. The panel is likely shot and the installer had zero phucks to give or not clue 1 as to the hazards of installing ANY breaker into an existing panel 150' from the ocean as old as this one was... with oxidation to boot.
'
And I doubt this original ocean-front panel was long for this world anyway, were I the OP, I'd bill the mutha Phucker for the new service as that's probably long overdue anyway and It's doubtful the existing service plus the new add-ons over the years was ever adequate for a new constant 48 amp draw anyway, not that any "installer" could care less... the spaces were there and it was a slam-dunk AFA he was concerned... "If it fits, it ships."

For as long as the OP's shop maintains this business model status-quo, this will happen again and likely has already happened, multiple times, before. Hence the "Oh then we just replace the panel, sorry not sorry... our bad. The swiftness of this tsk-tsk-tsk resolution "Here - a brandy new panel !!!!" "OOOOOOOOOOHHH!" Is to mitigate the chance of a future lawsuit 'cuz this family's home could have burned down...

IMHO, of course. 


CAUSA said:


> Pauleng, is 100% correct,
> 
> harmonics, can be induced in single phase or 3phase systems,
> 
> ...


Clearly, and ask @Kb1Jbb1, he does a lot of work on Long Island, stab-on breakers are fine for IDEAL conditions in IDEAL envirnments. Services are good for 15 years at best near the ocean.

Whatever goes in should be PVC or Stainless steel. And might as well bolt-on cuz ocean-close homeowners gotta pay if they wanna play. ANd they got that kinda cash in the couch cushions.




splatz said:


> That article mentions the problems with shared neutrals and transformers, and power factor but I don't see how that heats up the stab connection on this breaker.
> 
> @paulengr also mentions the harmonic frequencies increasing the skin effect and that heating up connections, I am afraid I just don't think that's the issue. I don't see it fooling a thermal-magnetic breaker. This is a battery charger, lots of battery chargers work fine on standard wiring. Harmonics are present on the load side of VFDs, with electronic ballasts etc., data centers, welders, etc., and zillions of these are running and have been running for decades without 48A loads burning up 60A breakers in minutes.
> 
> ...


Splatz, I've always admired your propensity to boil issues down to brass tacks.

But, few, or I should say no constantly-loaded stabbed breakers ever actually carry anything close to their rating. Cooking maybe it goes full-swing for what, an hour? Clothes dryer... the element cycles as needed... never really draws more than 20a anyway.

A main that's more than 100a takes 4 spaces not 2 for a reason, and yet... how often does a 200a main see more than 30% of it's rating??? When the AC or heat pump(s) are on. Thet's pretty much it.

A bolt in copper buss panel is appropriate here, nothing more nothing less though a st. st. tub would complete an A+ install, and on oceanfront or almost property...

-that's not going overboard in the least.



ohm it hertz said:


> Well I would be out of business pretty fast if I suggested installing a GFCI breaker in a melted panel and walking away.
> 
> I wouldn't have installed an EV on that service to begin with. The more you overcomplicate the install, the more things go wrong. Since we still don't know what is causing this, I suggested trying a GFCI breaker to see if it trips and when it trips. It's better than paying three employees hours of labor and not figuring anything out. I would think it's better to try eliminating problems and narrowing things down.
> 
> ...


Right now it's really complicated. You can't just chuck a Tesla charger on any service and expect that all's right with the world. All things considered... and none of those things were. Because this business model is about quantity, NOT quality, hence the free BJ to stave off what SHOULD be inevitable, the contractor F'd up, using unskilled unsupervised unqualified labor protected by some archaic outdated regulations that really need some fixin'.

And even the OP is stumped.

That should tell ya something.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

460 Delta said:


> The OP is putting people before dirty profits and YOUR’E finding fault with that?
> Up state NY has really been a good thing for you, sort of an epiphany for you.


If that were true this would NEVER have happened in the 1st place. Is the OP the license holder of record? Regardless, whomever is, it's all their responsibility, whatever the cause or fault notwithstanding.

IMHO.

-Peace out,
-DDD


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

ohm it hertz said:


> Would a $200 GFCI breaker have prevented all of this, exposing a clearly faulty wallbox charger? Replacing the service panel and bringing the bond and ground up to code seems counterintuitive to profit margins.


No.


----------



## ohm it hertz (Dec 2, 2020)

Okay so we know:

1.) Service panel was fine before the installation.
2.) Melting smell was present whenever the charger was operating. 
3.) Other breakers were being damaged with the charger connected directly to it's breaker.

Is it not logical to say one of the third party devices is malfunctioning?


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

I got the answer! It could be one of three things.. Circuit breaker was made post Covids. Putin did it. Serial number has CHINA in it.


----------



## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

splatz said:


> Well I'll stick my neck out and say it. I don't think harmonics are a factor here. I can see how harmonics can cause trouble in transformers. I can see how harmonics can overload shared neutrals in multiwire circuits. I could maybe buy harmonics fooling a truerms amp meter. I don't see how harmonics could fool simple thermal-magnetic breakers. I don't think there's anything esoteric like harmonic resonance causing vibration affecting just that one breaker's stabs.
> 
> If someone can give me even a basic explanation of how harmonics could cause that breaker to heat up, I will buy it, but just attributing it to harmonics whenever you get a head scratcher problem, that amounts to electrical voodoo, I don't buy that.


I doubt harmonics are the issue but an overloaded tranny is highly likely and causes similar issues.

Harmonics are commonly used as a “boogie man” among academics. Like the vague NEC line. The story changes dramatically when you can measure it. I work with drives all the time. One of the scare tactics the fear mongers use is conflating current and voltage harmonics.

Let’s put it this way in simple terms. Forget about the whole sine wave frequency thing for a moment. That just makes it easy to do the engineering. We know we have a switching DC power supply. Let’s say it’s running close to max power draw. Each time it switches on it connects a capacitor to the AC line. Would you say there is a big difference if it draws 48 A RMS as on 80% of the time and roughly 100 A peak or on 10% of the time and 1000 A peak (just making numbers up here)? Would the wave shape make a difference? The RMS current is the same but those giant spikes have an effect. That is what the problem is when we wave our hands and say vague ominous things about harmonics.



Wirenuting said:


> It’s just the Tesla’s doing it?
> I believe the car charging program controls the charge rate. I can see them pulsing the charge quickly in an attempt to keep the draw low enough for consumers to be able to use at a dwelling unit.
> Tesla wants people to be able to charge quickly enough each night to be able to drive all day long.


No. ANY switching DC power supply does the same thing. On very small ones you can do it with analog linear power supplies but almost nobody uses those anymore. Tesla certainly doesn’t. Even old cheap Walmart chargers don’t.

The charge controller essentially turns the input device on (and off). A diode blocks negative voltage. The output floats with the AC inout. An SCR adds a gate to the diode…it can turn on but the current must go to zero to turn iff (as the current reverses direction, not voltage). A transistor (MISFET up to 45 A, IGBT to hundreds of amps) can turn on or off at any time, still mostly a diode though.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

kb1jb1 said:


> I got the answer! It could be one of three things.. Circuit breaker was made post Covids. Putin did it. Serial number has CHINA in it.


"Dear Valued Customer but not so valued we'd address you by name...

In these troubled, trying and precarious times of Covid, we do so regret to inform you that we refuse to take any responsibility for this aforementioned current ongoing trainwreck of a dillema. 

Your entire service is most incapable of supporting today's modern demands, and we shall not bear the brunt, financial or otherwise, of you're remissiveness and your failure to perform your due diligence by allowing this festering puss sack that is your original existing electrical service to continue to be gang-pressed into wringing out the very last nickel of value since it's birth... 

As of 1980 your outdated outmoded and rotting electrical power supply and distribution didn't owe anyone a thing... The reality is it should have been entirely replace at least 2 times since it's inception. But no... no it wasn't. And that's on you kind Sir. Not on US. It's your property, you are responsible for it's overall condition, bar none. 

But do take heart and be comforted that those new Coach bags your trophy wife and that sweet ride you just acquired, (and likely the latter will outlast the former...) sure do look and smell sweet, eh? amirite???. Below please find the schedule of prices for a service that is more worthy of the tasks your boot-crushing-the-neck-of-every-pitiful-thing-that-ever-had-the-unfortunate-luck-you-ever-associated-with-or-encountered. 

Be advised that this is a different contractor's stock advertizement, one we happen to hate, as we have wisely chosen, and been advised by council, to wash our hands of this dirty deed and likely pre-planned and very well executed scam you dragged us into unwittingly. 

All contracts bar none, are legally bound by a duty that all the parties involved in the overall diaspara enter into it willingly, and with an expectation of an appropriate quid-pro-quo that is generally considered fair for all concerned participants, and no ill will ,or planned/conspired device built in to it's intrinsic and overall actual purpose, to wit: To get a free brand new service on the house by forcing the existing to crash and burn after we last touched it... (as it's woefully apparent that you're the only chump within a 5 radial miles who hasn't suffered nor relished in a proper and appropriate modern electrical system, because apparently Tesla vehicles and flashy swag and baubles on the trophy *X*um-dumpster of a "spouse" are far more important than the very thing necessary to fuel it. 

We have it on good authority you've a curious habit of setting up your hired help for failure, like it's some kind of sick, twisted game you get off on... Not JOHO, we now have more proof than we need should you unwisely choose to pursue any action, legal or otherwise, against us. Note our retained council is ready, willing, and able, in fact, we've retained yours so... good luck in your future endeavours.

We remain, never your servant,

-Your last known electrical associate who shall get a stay-away/ protection order should you attempt to reach out to us in any way, shape, or form again. That's not a threat, mind you - it's a promise. 

PS: Billing for both the original install and the subsequent 2 service calls remains unpaid, yet unchallenged, which makes sense and goes hand in hand with your apparent original plan... be advised. if the balance remains unpain after 7 business days hence this letter's date... auxiliary and unique collection actions will commence, and nobody wants that, or do we?


Note: This is an attempt to collect a debt... if you are not the intended reciepient please disregard. If this is your debt, you are hereby on notice any and every communication, past and present and future, may be used to facilitate that effort. 



Holy Xrap... Where's the Tylenol?


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

paulengr said:


> I doubt harmonics are the issue but an overloaded tranny is highly likely and causes similar issues.
> 
> Harmonics are commonly used as a “boogie man” among academics. Like the vague NEC line. The story changes dramatically when you can measure it. I work with drives all the time. One of the scare tactics the fear mongers use is conflating current and voltage harmonics.
> 
> ...


Damn best explaination I've read in a dogs day! Bravo Paul, color me impressed. I'm in awe! 👏


----------



## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

Get a FLIR and give it a look. About $250.00 on the web


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

CAUSA said:


> Pauleng, is 100% correct,
> 
> harmonics, can be induced in single phase or 3phase systems,
> 
> ...


Typically EV chargers have no neutral. But I concede on the single phase harmonics for the time being. Reason? Something caused melting, we need to nail it down. On the other hand when it comes to single phase and harmonics, I'm sure there are probably a bunch of "products" for sale to mitigate , just like there are many devices on the market sold to home owners to supposedly correct power factor issues , when actually there isn't such a thing typically in a dwelling with a single phase service.


----------



## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

You guys are all wrong.

It's the other boogyman, Ferroresonance.


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

I've got me a fever and Capacitance is my cure. More Capacitance!


----------



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

What about PF correction?


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

backstay said:


> What about PF correction?


Why not? we need more spooky stuff to throw at a single phase no neutral present gobbledygook conundrum that is simply a case of huge overload outside of the breaker's curve . 
When this finally gets found out, car chargers are going to be bigger than short circuit current calculations for non dwelling services. Perhaps fuses are going to be the answer. Or something we haven't developed or invented yet.


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

I talked about this point early on in this conversation. I'll repeat it now for emphasis. 

When Tesla was allowing 100 amps current on the chargers via dip-switch settings the conduit would sometimes get smoking hot even with 1/0 cu conductors going back to the panel and all terminations at proper torque. *But inside the wall chargers were 200 amp slow blow fuses.*


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Key point I think is going to possibly be Lithium Batteries. They should have all the data on inrush when charging these battery banks. This should be common knowledge for our crowd, but perhaps information about the subject is being withheld from the common electrical industry. There may be another dirty secret hiding in the closet. There may be politics involved . Three hundred amp services, are they the actual answer to this problem?


----------



## CMP (Oct 30, 2019)

Aluminum bus Snap on loadcenters are not suitable for continuous loads above 30 amps, new or used. Ive had them go bad in a couple of weeks when brand new.

The manufacturer rates each bus tab as suitable for 100A max, but on some of my jobs they could not handle 35A continuous with two opposing multipole breakers.

Use a copper or bolt on bus for continuous loads. Or you will eat the job, if you wait till it’s a fish fry time, you could be eating more than your job.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I'm more inclined to go with the theory that this is a much higher continuous load than most older panels are really designed to handle, age, oxidation and buss material play a role too.


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## RUSKES (6 mo ago)

Electricity Voodoo


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

I am going to throw out another idea. I have seen breakers that were not installed correctly on the fins of the buss bar. The spring clip of the breaker sometimes is not centered and is sometimes loose in the breaker. With the breaker open, the clip moves around. Close the breaker and the clip is locked in place. I have been on service calls where there must have been a problem and the electrician pushed and bent the spring clip when he installed the breaker. The buss bar burnt and once it heats up the composition is not the same. The buss bar is compromised.
There are probably 100s of thousands of panels with slip on breakers without any problems. If it was a 50 amp breaker with #8 wire, then I could see the overheating. 60 amp breaker with #6 wire is the bare minimum. If the panel is in the sun and it is hot outside then you might have to derate and go to a #4 wire and 70? IDK. Breakers trip by heat and if the breaker never tripped then I would think it could be a bad batch of breakers.


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## RUSKES (6 mo ago)

kb1jb1 said:


> I am going to throw out another idea. I have seen breakers that were not installed correctly on the fins of the buss bar. The spring clip of the breaker sometimes is not centered and is sometimes loose in the breaker. With the breaker open, the clip moves around. Close the breaker and the clip is locked in place. I have been on service calls where there must have been a problem and the electrician pushed and bent the spring clip when he installed the breaker. The buss bar burnt and once it heats up the composition is not the same. The buss bar is compromised.
> There are probably 100s of thousands of panels with slip on breakers without any problems. If it was a 50 amp breaker with #8 wire, then I could see the overheating. 60 amp breaker with #6 wire is the bare minimum. If the panel is in the sun and it is hot outside then you might have to derate and go to a #4 wire and 70? IDK. Breakers trip by heat and if the breaker never tripped then I would think it could be a bad batch of breakers.


That would be great idea, if the OP did not try new breaker in different position, and that one was also heating up.


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## Flashedout (4 mo ago)

I am gonna agree with a few theories here. First the panel being old and so close to the Ocean is a dead giveaway for corrosion. Also the chargers cycling rate could be a issue as well with the constant switching. Which would increase heat on the stabs due to the high resistance..

My two questions are have you took a ohm reading between the stab and new breaker before you reinstalled? Also if you installed the new breaker on stabs that were not being used and exposed to the elements could be your indicator for excessive corrosion. An IR reading would indicate that most of the heat was generated at the stab rather than meeting the MCCB trip curve. Did you get a IR reading?

My guess to the solution would be bolt ons


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## Deeegzz (Apr 5, 2021)

Flashedout said:


> I am gonna agree with a few theories here. First the panel being old and so close to the Ocean is a dead giveaway for corrosion. Also the chargers cycling rate could be a issue as well with the constant switching. Which would increase heat on the stabs due to the high resistance..
> 
> My two questions are have you took a ohm reading between the stab and new breaker before you reinstalled? Also if you installed the new breaker on stabs that were not being used and exposed to the elements could be your indicator for excessive corrosion. An IR reading would indicate that most of the heat was generated at the stab rather than meeting the MCCB trip curve. Did you get a IR reading?
> 
> My guess to the solution would be bolt ons


i did not get an IR reading brother. 
i didnt have the proper tool to do so.
I did think of doing it if I had one, I need to pick one up.

also,I used to work with the original installer.
He does GREAT work and I trust he did everything properly. 
Im leaning towards the bussing not being able to handle it regardless if it was rated for 100amps. It was very close to the ocean and possibly degraded the bussing over time. 
who knows. 
They have nothing else in the home that pulls that high of a continuous load. All appliances are gas.

thank you all for all the wonderful insights and ideas of things to try. 
I’m taking them all into consideration and will be trying out pretty much everything that you guys mentioned.

once we swap that panel we can get a fresh new look at things. 
Thanks guys.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Those little stand six feet away waitress thermometer guns used during Covid to allow / deny entry to public places are a pretty good cheap substitute for the expensive Flir camera's that also require you go to classes to learn how to interpret your results of testing. But the camera's are better by a mile. I always have a waitress thermometer in my van, had one for many many years. 


This post ought to cause some merriment , I just can't wait.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Here is a Sq D QO panel that failed. It was installed in the 70’s, in a damp maybe, but not wet basement. There are five more that have failed the same. The circuit is an electric water heater. My conclusion was that over 40 some years, several water heater elements had failed. Each time causing high amp loads and numerous resets of a bolted short nature. Amp load is just under 20 amps, but I believe the buss and breaker suffered from those events, leading to these failures. Your load is more than twice that. It may be as simple as the buss is no longer able to support the load.


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## RUSKES (6 mo ago)

And my theory is:
It is EV charger fault.
The on-board power management converting AC to DC failed.
It was turning on/off the current flow in very rapid sequence, thus not triggering the breaker, but overheating the connection. AK as harmonics.
😎🤯


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

backstay said:


> View attachment 169104
> 
> View attachment 169105
> 
> ...


Damn...
I can SMELL that from herer.


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## Deeegzz (Apr 5, 2021)

RUSKES said:


> And the final theory is
> It is Tesla's fault.
> The on-board power management converting AC to DC failed.
> It was turning on/off the current flow in very rapid sequence, thus not triggering the breaker, but overheating the connection.
> A ARC breaker would have detected that and saved the day.


if only it was a Tesla charger lmao.

it’sa WALLBOX Pulsar Plus charger.

but yes. I get what you’re saying.

arc breaker? 2p60 amp?


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## samgregger (Jan 23, 2013)

It's because you didn't use a Kenny Clamp :-D


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## samgregger (Jan 23, 2013)

RUSKES said:


> It was turning on/off the current flow in very rapid sequence, thus not triggering the breaker, but overheating the connection.


but why didn't it trip thermal?


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

macmikeman said:


> Key point I think is going to possibly be Lithium Batteries. They should have all the data on inrush when charging these battery banks. This should be common knowledge for our crowd, but perhaps information about the subject is being withheld from the common electrical industry. There may be another dirty secret hiding in the closet. There may be politics involved . Three hundred amp services, are they the actual answer to this problem?


Woah...

I need another drink...


Or one less.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

samgregger said:


> It's because you didn't use a Kenny Clamp :-D




Oh...
what SAD times are these when passing ruffians say "Kenny Clamp"
at will to old women...


----------



## RUSKES (6 mo ago)

samgregger said:


> but why didn't it trip thermal?


because of the harmonics


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## RUSKES (6 mo ago)

Deeegzz said:


> if only it was a Tesla charger lmao.
> 
> it’sa WALLBOX Pulsar Plus charger.
> 
> ...


Did you know AFCI is recommended to replace regular breaker ? do you know why ?


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

RUSKES said:


> because of the harmonics


How would harmonics prevent an electro-MECHANICAL "thermostat" from completing it's only purpose-built task? Inquiring minds want to know...


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

RUSKES said:


> It was turning on/off the current flow in very rapid sequence, thus not triggering the breaker, but overheating the connection.
> AFCI breaker would have detected that and saved the day.



My dear new Internet forum friend, do you not know what AC stands for? Alternating Current. 60 times a second. That is what I would call basically turning on and off the current flow in vary rapid sequence. The breaker is supposed to be designed for that, and even more as an additional safety factor built in.

Since it's a Bryant panel the listed replacement breaker would be an Eaton brand AFCI , if we wan't to take this even further. So ..... it's been my opinion that Eaton figured out how to make the test button shut the breaker off when we push it in, which helps to pass the inspector test at final. And that is all they have in there. In my opinion. This is perfect in my book. I don't believe there is any working arc fault management of any sort, but the breaker is highly expensive. Thats ok too since we have had 32 years now to get used to the idea of having to install arc barf protection for circuits run in dwellings. I don't think of em as high priced any more, my customers pay for everything, including lunch. But I don't believe they are gonna do one single thing more than a standard plug in BR breaker as far as preventing fires from starting. Eaton has never published any statistics in any magazines that I have ever read showing proof that fires in dwellings wired with AFCI protected circuits are less subject to fire, thanks to the miracle of ark fault protection. I could be wrong, but I just don't think any manufacturer has shown us yet how wonderful they really are , outside of claims made in order to sell more of them.


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

macmikeman said:


> Typically EV chargers have no neutral. But I concede on the single phase harmonics for the time being. Reason? Something caused melting, we need to nail it down. On the other hand when it comes to single phase and harmonics, I'm sure there are probably a bunch of "products" for sale to mitigate , just like there are many devices on the market sold to home owners to supposedly correct power factor issues , when actually there isn't such a thing typically in a dwelling with a single phase service.


I suggested ones that work.

If harmonics are a problem there are basically 4 strategies, specifically speaking to switching power supplies. The first method is to stick an inductor between the diodes and the capacitor in the charger. This does a lot of things. It dampens harmonics, dampens surges that might affect the charger, and compared to the next option costs 1/4 the price and is 1/4 the size. But if Tesla doesn’t give you terminals, it can’t be done.

Second option is an external inductor in series and a properly chosen capacitor in parallel and some small resistors all tuned to resonate at 160 Hz. 160 avoids resonating at a harmonic and the LC circuit tends to ****** rapid changes, rounding off “spikes” and forcing the current to be more like a sine wave.

The most expensive are active filters that measure line harmonics and generate harmonics that are the same pattern but 180 degrees out of phase so they cancel. Usually they work if built by a reputable company but they are 300% more expensive and large. I wouldn’t trust a residential one.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

LGLS said:


> How would harmonics prevent an electro-MECHANICAL "thermostat" from completing it's only purpose-built task? Inquiring minds want to know...


I don't think they do, that's my point exactly. Thermal-magnetic breakers are not considered susceptible to problems with harmonics. Heat is heat whether it's generated by a perfect sine wave or a messed up waveform. Heat is what damages insulation and cooks bad connections and trips thermal magnetic breakers. 

The root mean square / RMS measurement meant to handle the exact situation. With DC and resistive heating, you have no wave at all, it's constant. The RMS measurement coverts fluctuating current - current in a waveform - to the DC current with the equivalent heating. Really just a numerical averaging from an alternating voltage. The RMS measurement works with a sine wave but as long as the resolution is sufficient it works with any kind of messed up wave, like you get when harmonics are present, chopped waves with sections missing, etc.


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

RUSKES said:


> And the final theory is
> It is Tesla's fault.
> The on-board power management converting AC to DC failed.
> It was turning on/off the current flow in very rapid sequence, thus not triggering the breaker, but overheating the connection.
> AFCI breaker would have detected that and saved the day.


Did you forget "sarcasm " emoji?


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

splatz said:


> I don't think they do, that's my point exactly. Thermal-magnetic breakers are not considered susceptible to problems with harmonics. Heat is heat whether it's generated by a perfect sine wave or a messed up waveform. Heat is what damages insulation and cooks bad connections and trips thermal magnetic breakers.
> 
> The root mean square / RMS measurement meant to handle the exact situation. With DC and resistive heating, you have no wave at all, it's constant. The RMS measurement coverts fluctuating current - current in a waveform - to the DC current with the equivalent heating. Really just a numerical averaging from an alternating voltage. The RMS measurement works with a sine wave but as long as the resolution is sufficient it works with any kind of messed up wave, like you get when harmonics are present, chopped waves with sections missing, etc.


Considering DC is what all of our present and furure lighting likes, and better off for motors like AC and Heat Pumps, AHUs, and now let's pile on the car chargers and the backfeed from any solor panels which are becoming a big deal...

Maybe... just maybe, we oughta consider converting over to a DC power system. It can be transmitted to and fro as A/C sure enough... but the actual uses for power and lighting in a residential and most commercial settings seems to me that, DC solves a plethora of what's been ailing everyone as of late? WHAT in your home/business doesn't 1st convert the 60 hz into DC anyway? 

-Computers
-LED lighting
-HVAC
-Resistance heating
-Flat-screen TVs
-Audio/ stereo equip.
-Car chargers
-refrigeration, ANY motorized thing is smaller, quieter, and more efficient and cheaply and easily variable-speedable
-Cordless tools
-digital clocks

All mostly run on DC anyway, or could be built to. 

Lets see now... first, we're going to need a new NEMA 120 volt DC plug configuration... 
I vote for this--->


----------



## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

LGLS said:


> Considering DC is what all of our present and furure lighting likes, and better off for motors like AC and Heat Pumps, AHUs, and now let's pile on the car chargers and the backfeed from any solor panels which are becoming a big deal...
> 
> Maybe... just maybe, we oughta consider converting over to a DC power system. It can be transmitted to and fro as A/C sure enough... but the actual uses for power and lighting in a residential and most commercial settings seems to me that, DC solves a plethora of what's been ailing everyone as of late? WHAT in your home/business doesn't 1st convert the 60 hz into DC anyway?
> 
> ...


the problem this will cause is the DC stuff you are talking about does not use 120VDC
all of it is much lower voltage
it is much easier and cheaper to lower voltage in AC than DC

so we are already at the optimum set up


----------



## Frank DuVal (Feb 6, 2009)

LGLS said:


> same reason "super neutrals" came about.


Only on three phase systems.




RUSKES said:


> But we love harmonics



Harmonicas? See James Taylor and Bob Dylan (Robert Zimmerman)




LGLS said:


> Lets see now... first, we're going to need a new NEMA 120 volt DC plug configuration...
> I vote for this--->


Already have them, the Edison socket. 110 VDC. Of course the cords keep getting twisted. Sure glad Harvey Hubbell came along to fix that. Would Edison sockets be NEMA 0-15?


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Almost Retired said:


> the problem this will cause is the DC stuff you are talking about does not use 120VDC
> all of it is much lower voltage
> it is much easier and cheaper to lower voltage in AC than DC
> 
> so we are already at the optimum set up


Voltage schmoltedge... 220, 221 whatever it takes...


----------



## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

LGLS said:


>


Ground down! I like it!


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

readydave8 said:


> Ground down! I like it!


Well right now our ground pins are small but perfect. But being who I am, I have no interest in Small or perfect.
Gimmee it imperfect but *BIG*!


----------



## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

samgregger said:


> but why didn't it trip thermal?


Cool down effect.
I have seen this on motors many times.
Hydraulic or Shallow Well pumps, motor starts for 1-2 sec then shuts off. Starting current heats up motor, OL's, breaker but not enough to trip anything. OL and breaker don't have the mass so they cool down but motor hold heat longer.
Repeat process every 15-60 seconds due to pressure relief /accumulator issues.
Motor will burn up without tripping OL or breakers/fuses.
Question that always comes up " *what is something electrically sized wrong?*".

Same thing that @paulengr said, current spikes heat the mass " stabs " but between pulses small stuff " breaker thermal" cools down while stabs don't have that time.


----------



## Deeegzz (Apr 5, 2021)

RUSKES said:


> Did you know AFCI is recommended to replace regular breaker ? do you know why ?


What are you talking about

Can you point me toward a 2p60amp afci?


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Deeegzz said:


> What are you talking about
> 
> Can you point me toward a 2p60amp afci?


Sure, why not? Aren't they required for literally everything indoors residential now? Or just about? I know ranges and dryers are no longer exceptions.


----------



## Deeegzz (Apr 5, 2021)

LGLS said:


> Sure, why not? Aren't they required for literally everything indoors residential now? Or just about? I know ranges and dryers are no longer exceptions.


Garages, bathrooms, attics, Crawlspace aren’t required AFCI. 

regardless, afci are only required for 15 & 20amp branch circuits.
This is neither since it is in the garage and it is 60 amps.
And on top of that. 
i have never seen a two pole 60amp afci. 
do they even make them. ?


----------



## RUSKES (6 mo ago)

Deeegzz said:


> Garages, bathrooms, attics, Crawlspace aren’t required AFCI.
> 
> regardless, afci are only required for 15 & 20amp branch circuits.
> This is neither since it is in the garage and it is 60 amps.
> ...


Beside all the theories, harmonics, salt water, only one CB had the problem, and only the one that feeds the Tesla. Second CB in different location exhibited same problem when trying to feed Tesla.
*All other CB on the panel had no problem.*
That is why I blame Tesla.
Arching will occurs on the weakest point of the circuit.
Arcing can be induced by very rapid load switching.
Imagine the Tesla was turning the load on/off (defect), in lets say 60 pulses per minute.


----------



## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

RUSKES said:


> Beside all the theories, harmonics, salt water, only one CB had the problem, and only the one that feeds the Tesla. Second CB in different location exhibited same problem when trying to feed Tesla.
> *All other CB on the panel had no problem.*
> That is why I blame Tesla.
> Arching will occurs on the weakest point of the circuit.
> ...


Should have kept your misinformed opinion to yourself. Now it's too late.


----------



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

RUSKES said:


> Beside all the theories, harmonics, salt water, only one CB had the problem, and only the one that feeds the Tesla. Second CB in different location exhibited same problem when trying to feed Tesla.
> *All other CB on the panel had no problem.*
> That is why I blame Tesla.
> Arching will occurs on the weakest point of the circuit.
> ...


Isn’t the PoCo already turning it off 60 times a second?


----------



## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

See?


----------



## ohm it hertz (Dec 2, 2020)

Sniff sniff.


I'm unsure if I smell melted breaker, or melted Ruskes. 

Joking aside I'm very interested in the outcome of this and what the solution is.


----------



## Deeegzz (Apr 5, 2021)

ohm it hertz said:


> Sniff sniff.
> 
> 
> I'm unsure if I smell melted breaker, or melted Ruskes.
> ...


spoke to the engineer and my manager.We are doing a panel swap to replace the one with melted plastic everywhere.
We will also have a new charger in hand to try out.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

Deeegzz said:


> spoke to the engineer and my manager.We are doing a panel swap to replace the one with melted plastic everywhere.
> We will also have a new charger in hand to try out.


Do one at a time or you will never know.


----------



## Deeegzz (Apr 5, 2021)

joe-nwt said:


> Do one at a time or you will never know.


Yes am aware. 
thanks brother.
I just meant I have all the things ready to try. 👍
I’m hoping to be the one to go back and work there but not sure it will work out that way.
Trying my best to stay in the loop but my manager and the engineer pretty much took over.


----------



## RUSKES (6 mo ago)

joe-nwt said:


> Should have kept your misinformed opinion to yourself. Now it's too late.


However the OP gave me 👍


----------



## RUSKES (6 mo ago)

backstay said:


> Isn’t the PoCo already turning it off 60 times a second?


No they are not.
It is a continuous current flow reversing direction. AC
Not the same as switching the load on/off.


----------



## RUSKES (6 mo ago)

joe-nwt said:


> Should have kept your misinformed opinion to yourself. Now it's too late.


Beside all the theories, harmonics, salt water, only one CB had the problem, and only the one that feeds the Tesla. Second CB in different location exhibited same problem when trying to feed Tesla.
*All other CB on the panel had no problem.*


----------



## Deeegzz (Apr 5, 2021)

RUSKES said:


> However the OP gave me 👍


Did I? 
definitely a mistake.


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I just got the call to add one of these to a 10-12 yr old Homeline 200amp panel. Has me thinking about it.


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## ohm it hertz (Dec 2, 2020)

I've never had a callback on the ones I've installed, but they've all been installed on panels newer than 10 years old. Probably newer than 5 years old. I will hesitate to install them on anything older after seeing this thread.


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## RUSKES (6 mo ago)

Deeegzz said:


> Did I?
> definitely a mistake.


So you do not agree with my logic ? so be it. Chase the harmonics then.
Beside all the theories, harmonics, salt water, only one CB had the problem, and only the one that feeds the Tesla. Second CB in different location exhibited same problem when trying to feed Tesla.
*All other CB on the panel had no problem.

Highly recommend not to talk to your boss about harmonics.*


----------



## Deeegzz (Apr 5, 2021)

nrp3 said:


> I just got the call to add one of these to a 10-12 yr old Homeline 200amp panel. Has me thinking about it.


I do these all day man. 
This has NEVER happened. 
i think it’s a freak situation but still good to keep in mind.


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## Deeegzz (Apr 5, 2021)

RUSKES said:


> So you do not agree with my logic ? so be it. Chase the harmonics then.
> Beside all the theories, harmonics, salt water, only one CB had the problem, and only the one that feeds the Tesla. Second CB in different location exhibited same problem when trying to feed Tesla.
> *All other CB on the panel had no problem.*


I don’t agree with anything you say because it seems you don’t even read the posts correctly.

you keep saying Tesla. Lol
You also mentioned using an arc fault breaker. 
2 pole 60amp afci? Ok
Just because i don’t agree with you I’m choosing harmonics? Lmao are you even reading my posts.


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

I have one more sticky observation to inject into this snowball fight from snow that is gray and black like the stuff on the side of the road. Pay attention: This is almost unheard of on chargers wired to serve Nissan's electric vehicles. At least from the service calls I have gone on to repair other's installations. I don't know what type of car the OP is having the problem with, but I wonder if Nissan's vehicle battery system, has a better way to charge than some of the competition.


----------



## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

macmikeman said:


> I have one more sticky observation to inject into this snowball fight from snow that is gray and black like the stuff on the side of the road. Pay attention: This is almost unheard of on chargers wired to serve Nissan's electric vehicles. At least from the service calls I have gone on to repair other's installations. I don't know what type of car the OP is having the problem with, but I wonder if Nissan's vehicle battery system, has a better way to charge than some of the competition.


Just speculation on my part here since I haven’t studied EV chargers in detail but every car has a different battery system (more or less) but the chargers are to some degree universal as long as you carry your obligatory trunk full of adapters. The charge controller has to be programmed with the battery type, charging curve, temperature sensor(s), and has some learned data. It’s unrealistic to somehow pass that to the “charger” on the AC to DC side so the car itself clearly has to have a charging controller on board. The “car charger” connected to 240 V (or 120 V portables) is just a constant voltage source. So the controller just has to modulate the SCRs or transistors to produce a constant voltage. As voltage increases or decreases it has to increase or decrease firing time.


----------



## splatz (May 23, 2015)

RUSKES said:


> Beside all the theories, harmonics, salt water, only one CB had the problem, and only the one that feeds the Tesla. Second CB in different location exhibited same problem when trying to feed Tesla.
> *All other CB on the panel had no problem.*
> That is why I blame Tesla.
> Arching will occurs on the weakest point of the circuit.
> ...


Arcing at switch contacts cycling on and off at high speed can be a problem, this isn't that.


----------



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

I think I will let this one go.


----------



## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

strangely enough most of us got off of harmonics along about the 3rd or 4th post from the OP
i believe it also included some more info about the panel and the condition of the buss bars
since this is the 9th page i am not going back to confirm exactly when that happened


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Another just curious question. Is the 125 amp main breaker plugged onto the wrong fins? It looks like one is slotted and one isn't.


----------



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Almost Retired said:


> strangely enough most of us got off of harmonics along about the 3rd or 4th post from the OP
> i believe it also included some more info about the panel and the condition of the buss bars
> since this is the 9th page i am not going back to confirm exactly when that happened


That’s not what I was talking about.


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Almost Retired said:


> strangely enough most of us got off of harmonics along about the 3rd or 4th post from the OP
> i believe it also included some more info about the panel and the condition of the buss bars
> since this is the 9th page i am not going back to confirm exactly when that happened


9th page .
I am getting mixed up with other threads. Lets go for 200.
Outside panel, 150 feet from the ocean, old panel with questionable breaker location, new and probably post Covid made circuit breaker. I am going for breaker/buss bar problem rather than harmonics or other voodoo electric. Did somebody site Occam's Razor and go for the simplest answer?


----------



## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

backstay said:


> That’s not what I was talking about.


i know
i meant that for ruskes, i just didnt mention him
too many ppl got in ahead of me


----------



## Deeegzz (Apr 5, 2021)

kb1jb1 said:


> Another just curious question. Is the 125 amp main breaker plugged onto the wrong fins? It looks like one is slotted and one isn't.


It’s in the appropriate spot


----------



## Deeegzz (Apr 5, 2021)

kb1jb1 said:


> 9th page .
> I am getting mixed up with other threads. Lets go for 200.
> Outside panel, 150 feet from the ocean, old panel with questionable breaker location, new and probably post Covid made circuit breaker. I am going for breaker/buss bar problem rather than harmonics or other voodoo electric. Did somebody site Occam's Razor and go for the simplest answer?


I’m leaning towards that as well.


----------



## Deeegzz (Apr 5, 2021)

Y’all ain’t gonna believe this.
Just got a call from the office.
Same thing just happened at a different home.
This charger was installed over a year ago 

Happened today. Same brand of charger. Home not near the water. Its in the middle of the woods.
Gonna go have a look. Stay tuned. 😭


----------



## ohm it hertz (Dec 2, 2020)

Did that install also require a load shedding module? If not, could this be a design flaw?


----------



## Deeegzz (Apr 5, 2021)

ohm it hertz said:


> Did that install also require a load shedding module? If not, could this be a design flaw?


I’ll figure it out when I get there. Should be there in one hour.


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Deeegzz said:


> Y’all ain’t gonna believe this.
> Just got a call from the office.
> Same thing just happened at a different home.
> This charger was installed over a year ago
> ...


Please update us. It is an interesting situation.


----------



## RUSKES (6 mo ago)

Deeegzz said:


> Y’all ain’t gonna believe this.
> Just got a call from the office.
> Same thing just happened at a different home.
> This charger was installed over a year ago
> ...


and you called me an idiot ? for saying it is the Tesla charger.


----------



## Deeegzz (Apr 5, 2021)

RUSKES said:


> and you called me an idiot ? for saying it is the Tesla charger.


Pretty sure I never called you an idiot. 
that’s just you thinking you are one.


----------



## RUSKES (6 mo ago)

Deeegzz said:


> Pretty sure I never called you an idiot.
> that’s just you thinking you are one.


and now you are lying


----------



## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

RUSKES said:


> and you called me an idiot ? for saying it is the Tesla charger.


No. It's not a Tesla charger. That's why he's calling you an idiot.


----------



## RUSKES (6 mo ago)

Melting breaker


Should have kept your misinformed opinion to yourself. Now it's too late. Beside all the theories, harmonics, salt water, only one CB had the problem, and only the one that feeds the Tesla. Second CB in different location exhibited same problem when trying to feed Tesla. All other CB on the...




www.electriciantalk.com






backstay said:


> I think I will let this one go.


Update for you 








Melting breaker


Should have kept your misinformed opinion to yourself. Now it's too late. Beside all the theories, harmonics, salt water, only one CB had the problem, and only the one that feeds the Tesla. Second CB in different location exhibited same problem when trying to feed Tesla. All other CB on the...




www.electriciantalk.com


----------



## Deeegzz (Apr 5, 2021)

RUSKES said:


> and now you are lying


Ok


----------



## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

RUSKES said:


> Melting breaker
> 
> 
> Should have kept your misinformed opinion to yourself. Now it's too late. Beside all the theories, harmonics, salt water, only one CB had the problem, and only the one that feeds the Tesla. Second CB in different location exhibited same problem when trying to feed Tesla. All other CB on the...
> ...





Deeegzz said:


> if only it was a Tesla charger lmao.
> 
> it’sa WALLBOX Pulsar Plus charger.


----------



## RUSKES (6 mo ago)

joe-nwt said:


> No. It's not a Tesla charger. That's why he's calling you an idiot.


OK, you will stay dumb and newer learn


----------



## Forge Boyz (Nov 7, 2014)

RUSKES said:


> OK, you will stay dumb and newer learn


Not every electric car is a Tesla.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

paulengr said:


> We know we have a switching DC power supply. Let’s say it’s running close to max power draw. Each time it switches on it connects a capacitor to the AC line. Would you say there is a big difference if it draws 48 A RMS as on 80% of the time and roughly 100 A peak or on 10% of the time and 1000 A peak (just making numbers up here)? Would the wave shape make a difference? The RMS current is the same but those giant spikes have an effect. That is what the problem is when we wave our hands and say vague ominous things about harmonics.


I want to revisit this please.

Let's say it is harmonics. Why would it only affect the breaker? Isn't it essentially a dead short? Why not the wire? Why not the lugs at the charger?

1000A peak should warm everything up whatever the frequency.


----------



## Frank DuVal (Feb 6, 2009)

RUSKES said:


> No they are not.
> It is a continuous current flow reversing direction. AC
> Not the same as switching the load on/off.


If the voltage goes through zero, then the current also goes through zero. How can there be current with no voltage?

Sure, it happens fast, no where near as slow as your proposed 60 times a minute. That will be an issue, as 60 cycles per minute is 1 cycle per second, or one Hz plus it is a long enough time period to be a square wave and not a sine wave. The light flickering will be very noticeable, and so will the affect on the transmission line!


----------



## RUSKES (6 mo ago)

paulengr said:


> I doubt harmonics are the issue but an overloaded tranny is highly likely and causes similar issues.
> 
> Harmonics are commonly used as a “boogie man” among academics. Like the vague NEC line. The story changes dramatically when you can measure it. I work with drives all the time. One of the scare tactics the fear mongers use is conflating current and voltage harmonics.
> 
> ...


congrats, you are on the right path,


----------



## RUSKES (6 mo ago)

paulengr said:


> I doubt harmonics are the issue but an overloaded tranny is highly likely and causes similar issues.
> 
> Harmonics are commonly used as a “boogie man” among academics. Like the vague NEC line. The story changes dramatically when you can measure it. I work with drives all the time. One of the scare tactics the fear mongers use is conflating current and voltage harmonics.
> 
> ...


Let's say it is a faulty rectifier and turns on/of in rapid sequence. That would create huge but short current spikes, that would attack the weakest connection spot.


----------



## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

RUSKES said:


> congrats, you are on the right path, most here are just simple electricians that can wire a switch or a plug, but do not understand electronics. Like AC/DC converters.


And you are an electronics dork who has a great imagination when it comes to electrical. Worry not, most electronics guys suffer the same condition. You're not alone.

Why do you hide your profile?


----------



## RUSKES (6 mo ago)

Frank DuVal said:


> If the voltage goes through zero, then the current also goes through zero. How can there be current with no voltage?
> 
> Sure, it happens fast, no where near as slow as your proposed 60 times a minute. That will be an issue, as 60 cycles per minute is 1 cycle per second, or one Hz plus it is a long enough time period to be a square wave and not a sine wave. The light flickering will be very noticeable, and so will the affect on the transmission line!


Not the same as truing on/off the load. The AC is sine wave, thus goes slowly too low or too high.
A abrupt on/off will create current surges.


----------



## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

RUSKES said:


> Not the same as truing on/off the load. The AC is sinus wave, thus goes slowly too low or too high.
> A abrupt on/off will create current surges.


Sinus wave. You are a real wizard, huh?


----------



## Deeegzz (Apr 5, 2021)

.


----------



## Deeegzz (Apr 5, 2021)

Here’s that “Tesla charger” RUSKES keeps taking about.


----------



## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

@RUSKES,
Are you Chicken Steve?


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Hey.... I want that shoe. Can you send that to me?


----------



## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

Deeegzz said:


> Y’all ain’t gonna believe this.
> Just got a call from the office.
> Same thing just happened at a different home.
> This charger was installed over a year ago
> ...


I think we're going to see a LOT of these at some point in the future.


----------



## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

micromind said:


> I think we're going to see a LOT of these at some point in the future.


Nope, the manufacturer's are working on the BMCI breaker as we speak.

(Bus Meltdown Circuit Interrupter )


I didn't read any of this thread ... but I read here a few times of car chargers melting the buss stabs, and/or breakers.
The push on breakers aren't made for this kind of continuous high amp load IMO.


----------



## CMP (Oct 30, 2019)

After a few fires the word will start to get around, don’t do it without a line side tap, made with materials that can handle continuous loads. Plug on aluminum bus is a sure fire failure in my experience. A line side tap with a fused disconnect is a much better choice, more expensive but less liability.


----------



## RUSKES (6 mo ago)

Deeegzz said:


> Here’s that “Tesla charger” RUSKES keeps taking about.


No Daring, not that one,
I am talking about the ON-BOARD power regulator charger. The one inside the car.


----------



## Deeegzz (Apr 5, 2021)

RUSKES said:


> No Daring, not that one,
> I am talking about the ON-BOARD power regulator charger. The one inside the car.


Car wasn’t a Tesla either. 😁👍


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Frank DuVal said:


> If the voltage goes through zero, then the current also goes through zero. How can there be current with no voltage?
> 
> Sure, it happens fast, no where near as slow as your proposed 60 times a minute. That will be an issue, as 60 cycles per minute is 1 cycle per second, or one Hz plus it is a long enough time period to be a square wave and not a sine wave. The light flickering will be very noticeable, and so will the affect on the transmission line!


ELI the ICE man. Voltage and amperage could be out of phase. A real lousy power factor. 
In an inductor voltage peaks first. In a capacitance circuit the current peaks first. 
These switching power things might be 20,000 cycles per second while we only deal with 60 cycles per second.


----------



## RUSKES (6 mo ago)

Deeegzz said:


> Car wasn’t a Tesla either. 😁👍


Let me just sit back and watch you struggle with Salt Water corrosion.
oops...it is not that one any more.
That leaves Harmonics. Talk to your boss about it so he can see how clever you are.


----------



## Deeegzz (Apr 5, 2021)

RUSKES said:


> Let me just sit back and watch you struggle with Salt Water corrosion.
> oops...it is not that one any more.
> That leaves Harmonics. Talk to your boss about it so he can see how clever you are.


Why you so mean. 
Who hurt you. 
😁


----------



## RUSKES (6 mo ago)

Deeegzz said:


> Why you so mean.
> Who hurt you.
> 😁


Waiting for you to wise up and listen.
You said you now have second one burning up after one year. 
Those darn harmonics decided to show up.


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Let's play nice. This could be a very important topic especially if they start making crappy wall ports.


----------



## ohm it hertz (Dec 2, 2020)

RUSKES said:


> Waiting for you to wise up and listen.


It took you literally a dozen posts to realize the customers vehicle is not a Tesla and you want to talk about listening.

What do you propose? Tacking on another $500 part to a $2k install? None of my installs have had a harmonic problem.


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

It burns only when hooked up to trendy things.... I said it way long time ago...


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Water heater tank. Starts out cold. Electrical circuit applied, max resistance element . No fire.

Huge battery bank. Starts out discharged. Electrical circuit applied. But no fixed resistance. Or reasonably fixed resistance at full discharge. Fire. The secret is in the charge controllers. 

Large bank of pv panels on roof. Backfeeds to poco wiring via customers main breaker (in load side tap situations) . Customer starts cooking and drying clothes and maybe runs the AC full blast cause it's hot outside. Main breaker melts from overloading because that roof is full of sun power. And , ,,, all the customers on the grid are doing similar things at same time so roof panels output at top speed to feed hungry grid. There must be some problem in the main breakers overload disconnection ability. And it's not harmonics doing these things. its demand.


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

All this with no high fallutin physics degree from a fancy East Coast University.


----------



## RUSKES (6 mo ago)

ohm it hertz said:


> It took you literally a dozen posts to realize the customers vehicle is not a Tesla and you want to talk about listening.
> 
> What do you propose? Tacking on another $500 part to a $2k install? None of my installs have had a harmonic problem.


It took you 213 posts to say anything
and it is not very helpful.
Not proposing anything. to solve this.
Are you the Salt Water guy ?

But let me be polite and ask you a question:
Are your EV installs Tesla or other make, since you did not have harmonics problems.


----------



## ohm it hertz (Dec 2, 2020)

Each of my installs involved hybrid EVs and the vehicles were manufactured by many different companies. 



macmikeman said:


> Large bank of pv panels on roof. Backfeeds to poco wiring via customers main breaker (in load side tap situations) . Customer starts cooking and drying clothes and maybe runs the AC full blast cause it's hot outside. Main breaker melts from overloading because that roof is full of sun power. And , ,,, all the customers on the grid are doing similar things at same time so roof panels output at top speed to feed hungry grid. There must be some problem in the main breakers overload disconnection ability. And it's not harmonics doing these things. its demand.


I once replaced two main breakers and eventually the entire main breaker panel and all of the breakers contained inside because this exact thing was happening. Once the panel was replaced the problems stopped happening. The odd thing about it though was the service was relatively new.


----------



## splatz (May 23, 2015)

This is not the same charger in question, a much larger charger from ABB, but it will put some actual numbers to the boogieman. 

ABB DC Fast Charger - Input Power Requirements & Harmonics data – ABB Electric Vehicle Charging Infrastructure Help Center (zendesk.com) 

The forum software doesn't allow you to attach powerpoint slideshows but if you have microsoft office or free openoffice you open the linked file. 
Look at the spreadsheet embedded in slide 10. 


Harmonics numberAmpsAmps [%]1​198.00​100%​2​0.28​0.141%​3​3.21​1.621%​4​0.10​0.051%​5​0.54​0.273%​6​0.04​0.020%​7​0.80​0.404%​8​0.04​0.020%​9​1.11​0.561%​10​0.02​0.010%​11​3.02​1.525%​12​0.00​0.000%​13​1.26​0.636%​14​0.00​0.000%​15​0.33​0.167%​16​0.00​0.000%​17​0.21​0.106%​18​0.00​0.000%​19​0.13​0.066%​20​0.00​0.000%​21​0.26​0.131%​22​0.00​0.000%​23​1.88​0.949%​24​0.00​0.000%​25​1.63​0.823%​26​0.00​0.000%​27​0.22​0.111%​28​0.00​0.000%​29​0.15​0.076%​30​0.00​0.000%​31​0.06​0.030%​32​0.00​0.000%​33​0.15​0.076%​34​0.00​0.000%​35​0.64​0.323%​36​0.00​0.000%​37​0.49​0.247%​38​0.00​0.000%​39​0.14​0.071%​40​0.00​0.000%​41​0.10​0.051%​42​0.00​0.000%​43​0.04​0.020%​44​0.00​0.000%​45​0.11​0.056%​46​0.00​0.000%​47​0.49​0.247%​48​0.00​0.000%​49​0.39​0.197%​50​0.00​0.000%​

98.00​


----------



## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Here's another article that actually has derating for six-pulse harmonics. 

Effects of Harmonics on Power Cables - Electrical Volt 










Note that this is based on an example with way worse harmonics than the example from ABB in the last post.


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

macmikeman said:


> All this with no high fallutin physics degree from a fancy East Coast University.


"Fallutin" now that is an ornamental word. 
You must have gone to he school of common sense, hard knocks, experience.


----------



## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

splatz said:


> This is not the same charger in question, a much larger charger from ABB, but it will put some actual numbers to the boogieman.
> 
> ABB DC Fast Charger - Input Power Requirements & Harmonics data – ABB Electric Vehicle Charging Infrastructure Help Center (zendesk.com)
> 
> ...


wondering if im reading this right ?
1rst harmonic = double the load
3rd = double and 2/3
11 = double and 1/2

is that correct ?


----------



## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Almost Retired said:


> wondering if im reading this right ?
> 1rst harmonic = double the load
> 3rd = double and 2/3
> 11 = double and 1/2
> ...


It's saying there's 198 amps on the first harmonic (regular sine wave, 60hz) 
3.21 amps on the dreaded third (triplen) harmonic ho hum 
3.02 amps on the 11th 

So yes maybe some derating is in order, but not huge derating (look at the graph in the other post). Realistically there's some headroom in the ampacities on equipment, things don't start melting in a couple minutes with a small overload. AND a thermal-magnetic breaker is still going to catch the overcurrent. I am not sure the OP's meter is TrueRMS (it should be) but the breakers are telling us the same thing.


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

splatz said:


> It's saying there's 198 amps on the first harmonic (regular sine wave, 60hz)
> 3.21 amps on the dreaded third (triplen) harmonic ho hum
> 3.02 amps on the 11th
> 
> So yes maybe some derating is in order, but not huge derating (look at the graph in the other post). Realistically there's some headroom in the ampacities on equipment, things don't start melting in a couple minutes with a small overload. AND a thermal-magnetic breaker is still going to catch the overcurrent. I am not sure the OP's meter is TrueRMS (it should be) but the breakers are telling us the same thing.


I'm going to go out on a limb here and state that 198 amps on a 100 amp charger is a bit severe..


----------



## MikeWhitfield (Aug 1, 2011)

LGLS said:


> now YER SPEAKING my LANGUAGE!
> 
> gEEZ... EVEN A fuse BOX !
> 
> The harmonics aren't affecting his utility billing, but it IS affecting the intrinsic heat load on the breaker, same reason "super neutrals" came about.


Is that true though? I realize that harmonics can be an issue on single phase circuits - but a heat issue? It's always been my understanding that the fire issue with harmonics was on the neutral leg and were caused almost exclusively by triplens, which always add. I've read papers on how harmonics can be a similar problem on single phase systems but remained unconvinced (which may be due to it being over my head) that the math represents a real world situation. I stated that recently in another thread, but now I'm wondering if I was wrong. But assuming I am, wouldn't that be a heat issue in the neutral wire rather than in the breaker? 

My own guess (and I haven't yet finished reading the thread so this may be embarrassing in five minutes) is a bus in poor condition or even poorly designed. With an old panel, maybe the designers either never expected to see a sustained 48A load on one breaker in a 125A bus panel or designed it so close to the bone that any degradation was more than the bus can handle, especially if it's in a hot location and double especially in a flush-mounted panel where evacuating waste heat from the whole panel assembly is more difficult. I'd recommend a 200A or 250A bus with a 125A trip main to maximize the panel's ability to transport heat away from the breaker stabs - only if it is somehow a harmonics issue, that's an expensive way to not solve the problem . . .


----------



## MikeWhitfield (Aug 1, 2011)

CAUSA said:


> Pauleng, is 100% correct,
> 
> harmonics, can be induced in single phase or 3phase systems,
> 
> ...


Thanks CAUSA. But reading that, it seems they are still discussing the problems caused by harmonics in single phase loads on three phase systems. I completely agree that widespread EV chargers will wreck havoc on our grid, can cause fires in neutral conductors or even buses if the load is a large enough percentage of the total load, and will wreck havoc with motors, transformers and other heavily magnetic devices. I'm just not seeing how harmonics could be causing this problem though. (Not saying that you are saying that by posting this interesting little read, just saying.)


----------



## globalelectricalcont (6 mo ago)

check the dip switch setting


----------



## MikeWhitfield (Aug 1, 2011)

kb1jb1 said:


> ELI the ICE man. Voltage and amperage could be out of phase. A real lousy power factor.
> In an inductor voltage peaks first. In a capacitance circuit the current peaks first.
> These switching power things might be 20,000 cycles per second while we only deal with 60 cycles per second.


That's actually an interesting point. Can a switching power supply generate harmonics at such a high frequency that the RMS meter simply misses that component?

Although . . . surely the people who designed it and the people who certify it (U.L., E.T.L., etc.) wouldn't miss that.

ADDIT: If the switching power supply can generate enough harmonics to effectively change the 60 Hz supply into a very high frequency supply, then the total power (area underneath the current curve) would be higher than designed for the wire and breaker. The only situation I've seen that be an issue is with very large VFDs a couple decades ago and of course, with neon or cold cathode lighting electronic transformers. But I remain unconvinced that (A) this could physically be done, (B) that such a flaw would make it through both design and certification, (C) two competent electricians' RMS meters would be fooled, and (D) the breaker's thermal element wouldn't trip before the heat damages its case AND the bus. Something different must still be at play, and I'm still guessing it's a combination of bus degradation and initial design constraints assuming there would never be a sustained load that close to bus ampacity applied through a single breaker. Thus the maximum heat generated would be at the bus/stab connection rather than at the thermal element. Gonna be really interesting to see what Deeegzz ultimately finds though.


----------



## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

I never heard Eli the Ice man until I joined this site.

I find it easier to remember that _you can't change the voltage instantaneously across a capacitor_ (have to charge it up obviously), so the Voltage Lags the Current.
Opposite for an Inductive circuit.


----------



## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

I'm sure the installation instructions specified a minimum breaker size and minimum wire size, and then default to "local applicable codes".

Add to that Splatz's link and graph.

If harmonics were an issue, are we to believe the manufacturers are lying?


----------



## kristopherk1985 (Oct 26, 2021)

Almost Retired said:


> he said a second new breaker on a different spot on the buss burned up in the next day or so
> the wire coming to the breaker seems to be ok
> 
> could it be that it is a BR breaker on a Bryant buss ???


It could be that portion of the bus was already getting a poor connection from the beginning, and adding 48 amps to it just was too much to handle for a high resistance connection.


----------



## splatz (May 23, 2015)

macmikeman said:


> I'm going to go out on a limb here and state that 198 amps on a 100 amp charger is a bit severe..


The chargers in that powerpoint go as high as 300A, I assume this was on one of the 200A or 300A models.


----------



## splatz (May 23, 2015)

MikeWhitfield said:


> That's actually an interesting point. Can a switching power supply generate harmonics at such a high frequency that the RMS meter simply misses that component?


I imagine if the duration of the pulse is less than the resolution of the meter it could miss pulses. However if the duration of the pulse is that short, it wouldn't be generating much heat, or charging power. The thermal magnetic breaker is an analog device and would not be fooled by simple tricks like that.


----------



## MikeWhitfield (Aug 1, 2011)

splatz said:


> I imagine if the duration of the pulse is less than the resolution of the meter it could miss pulses. However if the duration of the pulse is that short, it wouldn't be generating much heat, or charging power. The thermal magnetic breaker is an analog device and would not be fooled by simple tricks like that.


That's the way I see it - pretty much just an interesting curiosity without any practical effect. I'd actually added to my post to that effect. Statistically I'd think that way more of the pulses would be picked up than would be missed. Right now I'm still on Team Bad Bus/Bad Bus Connection, although I'm very interested in what Deeegzz ultimately decides.


----------



## hornetd (Oct 30, 2014)

LGLS said:


> these 1500 watt space heaters shouldn't be able to plug into a standard receptacle.


I agree strongly with that premise. 1500 is over 80% of a 15 ampere circuit. "But it's only 0.33 percent over" said in a whiny voice. Well over is over in my book. Without some way to prevent the ones with a NEMA 5-15P plug from being used continuously I cannot see how UL can continue to except them as intermittent loads. The users have no way of knowing that the heater is not suitable for continuous use on a fifteen ampere receptacle outlet. Drop 100 watts off of the capacity of those things or require 20 amp plugs on them. I know that is not a bomb proof solution but it would help.

-- 
Tom Horne


----------



## RUSKES (6 mo ago)

splatz said:


> This is not the same charger in question, a much larger charger from ABB, but it will put some actual numbers to the boogieman.
> 
> ABB DC Fast Charger - Input Power Requirements & Harmonics data – ABB Electric Vehicle Charging Infrastructure Help Center (zendesk.com)
> 
> ...


I can not open that document. What does it say the source of the harmonics was ?


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

MikeWhitfield said:


> Is that true though? I realize that harmonics can be an issue on single phase circuits - but a heat issue? It's always been my understanding that the fire issue with harmonics was on the neutral leg and were caused almost exclusively by triplens, which always add. I've read papers on how harmonics can be a similar problem on single phase systems but remained unconvinced (which may be due to it being over my head) that the math represents a real world situation. I stated that recently in another thread, but now I'm wondering if I was wrong. But assuming I am, wouldn't that be a heat issue in the neutral wire rather than in the breaker?
> 
> My own guess (and I haven't yet finished reading the thread so this may be embarrassing in five minutes) is a bus in poor condition or even poorly designed. With an old panel, maybe the designers either never expected to see a sustained 48A load on one breaker in a 125A bus panel or designed it so close to the bone that any degradation was more than the bus can handle, especially if it's in a hot location and double especially in a flush-mounted panel where evacuating waste heat from the whole panel assembly is more difficult. I'd recommend a 200A or 250A bus with a 125A trip main to maximize the panel's ability to transport heat away from the breaker stabs - only if it is somehow a harmonics issue, that's an expensive way to not solve the problem . . .


I like the way you reasoned. From what I saw of the panel it was installed well before any EV wall port was made. Also the 125 amp panels that I am familiar with, the 125 amp main takes up 4 positions on full size fins. Tell these people they have to upgrade the panel to 200 amps and they might have second thoughts about buying an EV.


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

emtnut said:


> I never heard Eli the Ice man until I joined this site.
> 
> I find it easier to remember that _you can't change the voltage instantaneously across a capacitor_ (have to charge it up obviously), so the Voltage Lags the Current.
> Opposite for an Inductive circuit.


With the AC sine wave

E = volts or electromotive force
L = inductive coil.
I = amps.
Volts comes or peaks before amps in a coil.

I = amps
C = capacitance
E = volts again.
Amps comes or peaks before volts with a capacitor.


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

I've had to go out and replace a 200 amp Square-D meter/main can cause a Tesla charger burnt up the 2 pole 100 for the charger and the bus stabs behind it. Anyway I hope we all get to the bottom of this soon cause I haven't got all that many years left to win me a (I'll share it with you guys, I promise..) Nobel Prize.


----------



## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

kb1jb1 said:


> With the AC sine wave
> 
> E = volts or electromotive force
> L = inductive coil.
> ...


Meh .... Mine's easier


----------



## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

hornetd said:


> Drop 100 watts off of the capacity of those things or require 20 amp plugs on them. I know that is not a bomb proof solution but it would help.
> 
> --
> Tom Horne


100% agree, drop wattage and call it "Safer & Greener it don't use as much" but don't mention it will lose some heat. Just like smaller packages people won't know the difference in a few years.


----------



## MikeWhitfield (Aug 1, 2011)

kb1jb1 said:


> I like the way you reasoned. From what I saw of the panel it was installed well before any EV wall port was made. Also the 125 amp panels that I am familiar with, the 125 amp main takes up 4 positions on full size fins. Tell these people they have to upgrade the panel to 200 amps and they might have second thoughts about buying an EV.


Yep, or at least figure the cost of that as part of the cost of owning the EV. Except for EV chargers there aren't really any continuous 48 amp loads on a sixty amp breaker; the closest would be electric heat. Stands to reason that such a load was never anticipated when designing and certifying the panels. Even today I highly doubt that the switchgear industry has caught up. "Because otherwise it might burn down your house" seems to me to be a pretty good argument for upgrading the service or at least the panel. 

As a rule, anything that I see as maybe marginal I figure needs to be upgraded as part of any project. Otherwise the customer gets to bet that there won't be a problem, and if there is a problem then it's now my problem. Heads the customer saves money because extra work isn't done, tails the customer saves money because he insists it is my problem to fix. Sucks to be me then, so I try to make sure that isn't me. Telling your customer in writing that there may be a problem is at least a start toward not making it your problem.


----------



## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

hornetd said:


> I agree strongly with that premise. 1500 is over 80% of a 15 ampere circuit. "But it's only 0.33 percent over" said in a whiny voice. Well over is over in my book. Without some way to prevent the ones with a NEMA 5-15P plug from being used continuously I cannot see how UL can continue to except them as intermittent loads. The users have no way of knowing that the heater is not suitable for continuous use on a fifteen ampere receptacle outlet. Drop 100 watts off of the capacity of those things or require 20 amp plugs on them. I know that is not a bomb proof solution but it would help.
> 
> --
> Tom Horne


So then you disagree with inverse time circuit breakers? Everything should be instantaneous and that's it? Sure that makes a lot of sense because it is SIMPLE but it ignores all kinds of situations. For instance a motor pulls up to about 10 x it's rating for a couple seconds while it gets up to speed then follows name plate from then on. Should you oversize everything by a factor of 10 just to satisfy the fact that "over is over" for 4 seconds? Of course not. And if you are constantly cycling the motor on and off then NEC has rules for intermittent/cyclical loads to address that.



https://ewh.ieee.org/r4/iail/Time-Current%20Curves.pdf



The damage curve formula for cables is:
I^2 * t <= k^2 * S^2 where:
I is current
t is time
k is a magic fudge factor that depends on the cable insulating and conducting materials
S is the cross sectional area of the cable
If S is in mm^2, k is 115 for PVC coated copper (THHN), 141 for rubber, and 143 for XLPE/EPR. For aluminum it's 76, 93, and 94 respectively.

This is of course the "free air" formula.

The UL B/C/D 489 breaker curve is very similar to the cable damage curve...it is very close to something like:
I^2 * t <= k x amp rating

UL is a little confusing in that they don't give you a formula but a large "curve" to work from and any trip curve that fits within the "box" meets UL 489 ratings but a curve that matches what I described above will work just fine. Notice that other than wire size, the damage curve and the breaker curves are IDENTICAL. This is on purpose. This means that I can start a motor (with it's 10x FLA current draw) and even though it is much higher than the handle rating on the b breaker, it won't nuisance trip unless the current is so high that it trips the magnetic trip setting or it stalls for so long that it trips the breaker (should trip the overload relay way before this happens though).

Similarly it should be obvious that we can exceed the ultimate extreme limit of the wiring for short periods of time such as pulsing a heater on and off as long as we don't do it for a sustained period. That's when the homeowner finds that the heater keeps tripping out, throws it away, and goes out and fires up the giant torpedo heater until passing out from carbon monoxide poisoning, or puts in a 60 A breaker to run the heater until the wiring in the wall melts and opens the circuit or shorts it, causing again a trip. Laugh but I've seen it done many times.


----------



## RUSKES (6 mo ago)

And we are back to it is the EV charger to blame.
See my post #127


----------



## laceyforrest1970 (7 mo ago)

Almost Retired said:


> he said a second new breaker on a different spot on the buss burned up in the next day or so
> the wire coming to the breaker seems to be ok
> 
> could it be that it is a BR breaker on a Bryant buss ???


as soon as i read this thread i thought that it was definitely the stab in breakers. Get something with bolt in breakers. The stab ins lose that tight connection to the bus after awhile and cause problems.


----------



## MikeWhitfield (Aug 1, 2011)

paulengr said:


> So then you disagree with inverse time circuit breakers? Everything should be instantaneous and that's it? Sure that makes a lot of sense because it is SIMPLE but it ignores all kinds of situations. For instance a motor pulls up to about 10 x it's rating for a couple seconds while it gets up to speed then follows name plate from then on. Should you oversize everything by a factor of 10 just to satisfy the fact that "over is over" for 4 seconds? Of course not. And if you are constantly cycling the motor on and off then NEC has rules for intermittent/cyclical loads to address that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's not how I took what he said. I've worked in buildings where cold-natured people kept a 1,500W heater going continuously just by cranking the knob all the way open, so it never shut off all day long. It's easy to put a portable heater into a situation where it's undersized for the heat loss and desired temperature and thus runs considerably longer than three hours. I consider that to be an inherent part of a portable heater. IMO if something can be continuously operated in excess of three hours without requiring any special behavior, then it should be considered to be a continuous load and sized to always be below 80%.


----------



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

MikeWhitfield said:


> Yep, or at least figure the cost of that as part of the cost of owning the EV. Except for EV chargers there aren't really any continuous 48 amp loads on a sixty amp breaker; the closest would be electric heat. Stands to reason that such a load was never anticipated when designing and certifying the panels. Even today I highly doubt that the switchgear industry has caught up. "Because otherwise it might burn down your house" seems to me to be a pretty good argument for upgrading the service or at least the panel.
> 
> As a rule, anything that I see as maybe marginal I figure needs to be upgraded as part of any project. Otherwise the customer gets to bet that there won't be a problem, and if there is a problem then it's now my problem. Heads the customer saves money because extra work isn't done, tails the customer saves money because he insists it is my problem to fix. Sucks to be me then, so I try to make sure that isn't me. Telling your customer in writing that there may be a problem is at least a start toward not making it your problem.


I’ve installed many electric storage heaters that draw 160 amps for 6 plus hours every night in the heating season. 4 circuits at 40 amps on 60 amp breakers. I have never seen a loadcenter failure. Always new equipment, push on breakers. Some of those installs are 20 years old now.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

backstay said:


> I’ve installed many electric storage heaters that draw 160 amps for 6 plus hours every night in the heating season. 4 circuits at 40 amps on 60 amp breakers. I have never seen a loadcenter failure. Always new equipment, push on breakers. Some of those installs are 20 years old now.


Water heaters are not trendy..... No bragging rule for water heaters for crying out loud. It only happens to bragging stuff.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Better keep watch on the breaker you have your Ring doorbell and your Ring camera floodlights running from. They are trendy as well.......... It's just a matter of time.


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## RUSKES (6 mo ago)

backstay said:


> I’ve installed many electric storage heaters that draw 160 amps for 6 plus hours every night in the heating season. 4 circuits at 40 amps on 60 amp breakers. I have never seen a loadcenter failure. Always new equipment, push on breakers. Some of those installs are 20 years old now.


That is because the heaters do not have AC-DC converters like EV chargers.

Not properly shielded large AC/DC Rectifiers will create a distortion in electrical system (unbalanced load). Call it harmonics or what you like.


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## MikeWhitfield (Aug 1, 2011)

backstay said:


> I’ve installed many electric storage heaters that draw 160 amps for 6 plus hours every night in the heating season. 4 circuits at 40 amps on 60 amp breakers. I have never seen a loadcenter failure. Always new equipment, push on breakers. Some of those installs are 20 years old now.


I'm not surprised, but a 1,500W heater on a 15A breaker (or receptacle) is too much (83.3% rather than 80%) if it runs continuously. And there's nothing to keep it from running continuously, or to keep it from being plugged into a 15A receptacle on a 15A C/B.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

RUSKES said:


> That is because the heaters do not have AC-DC converters like EV chargers.
> 
> Not properly shielded large AC/DC Rectifiers will create a distortion in electrical system (unbalanced load). Call it harmonics or what you like.


So now it's "distortion" but not harmonics.









How do you get an unbalanced load in 2 wires?


----------



## MikeWhitfield (Aug 1, 2011)

RUSKES said:


> That is because the heaters do not have AC-DC converters like EV chargers.
> 
> Not properly shielded large AC/DC Rectifiers will create a distortion in electrical system (unbalanced load). Call it harmonics or what you like.


I agree that rectifiers and switching power supplies are nasty, causing harmonics and other distortion. I just don't see how that directly causes the meltdown that Deeegzz has seen. Or how it can significantly fool his meter for RMS current. Or how it could melt the stabs/bus whilst not tripping the breaker's thermal protection.


----------



## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

MikeWhitfield said:


> I agree that rectifiers and switching power supplies are nasty, causing harmonics and other distortion. I just don't see how that directly causes the meltdown that Deeegzz has seen. Or how it can significantly fool his meter for RMS current. Or how it could melt the stabs/bus whilst not tripping the breaker's thermal protection.


Why wouldn't it melt the wire? I'm sure the stabs can handle more load than the wire.


----------



## MikeWhitfield (Aug 1, 2011)

macmikeman said:


> Better keep watch on the breaker you have your Ring doorbell and your Ring camera floodlights running from. They are trendy as well.......... It's just a matter of time.


Ours are flat-out evil. Keep alarming all damned night because "a person has been detected" when it's a spider web and then completely ignore a 150 lb deer walking through the yard ten feet from the camera. Damned spiders have figured out that if they build the web down over the camera and then shake it, the lights come on, attracting insects that the spiders then trap and eat. Every. Night. I suspect that if the breaker trips, the spiders would come into the garage and reset it.


----------



## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

splatz said:


> I imagine if the duration of the pulse is less than the resolution of the meter it could miss pulses. However if the duration of the pulse is that short, it wouldn't be generating much heat, or charging power. The thermal magnetic breaker is an analog device and would not be fooled by simple tricks like that.


Digital meter resolution, or sampling is one thing that keeps me on team analog. I have my trust in a scale with a needle that indicates what I’m testing. I wonder what a Snap-8 would read on the circuit in question?


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## MikeWhitfield (Aug 1, 2011)

joe-nwt said:


> Why wouldn't it melt the wire? I'm sure the stabs can handle more load than the wire.


Exactly. The stabs should be among the more robust parts of this system, which is why I suspect some combination of resistance at the stabs. But I'm here to be edumuhcated so I'll eagerly wait what Deeegzz figures out - and while I wait I'll gleefully speculate.

ADDIT: Somebody correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the stabs are uniform for a given frame size, so if the 60A breaker is a 100A frame then its stabs are rated at 100A.


----------



## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

macmikeman said:


> Better keep watch on the breaker you have your Ring doorbell and your Ring camera floodlights running from. They are trendy as well.......... It's just a matter of time.


Ultimately the OP’s problem is going to be traced back to 5G.


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Yes and Chemtrails also.....


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

MikeWhitfield said:


> Exactly. The stabs should be among the more robust parts of this system, which is why I suspect some combination of resistance at the stabs. But I'm here to be edumuhcated so I'll eagerly wait what Deeegzz figures out - and while I wait I'll gleefully speculate.
> 
> ADDIT: Somebody correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the stabs are uniform for a given frame size, so if the 60A breaker is a 100A frame then its stabs are rated at 100A.


Yes 100 amp rated, but supposedly will accept more just in case....


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## RUSKES (6 mo ago)

MikeWhitfield said:


> I agree that rectifiers and switching power supplies are nasty, causing harmonics and other distortion. I just don't see how that directly causes the meltdown that Deeegzz has seen. Or how it can significantly fool his meter for RMS current. Or how it could melt the stabs/bus whilst not tripping the breaker's thermal protection.


a 40 Amp breaker will trip in about 10 seconds if carrying 80 Amps (200% of rating). A short pulse of 200% overload (say, 5 seconds) will not cause a trip but a continuous arching will destroy the contact area, but a continuous 200% overload will, after about 10 seconds.


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## Vyking.Electric (May 26, 2019)

Deeegzz said:


> View attachment 169059
> 
> View attachment 169061
> 
> ...


I didn’t read what type of EV and wall charger was used or over looked it, but the same thing happened to an electrician I work with. He installed a new Tesla 30 or 40 amp charger if I remember correctly. The same exact result happened to him twice back to back on the same circuit and breakers after melting the first panel. He determined the cause was the tesla model had to be set from the car to match the charge rate of the wall charger. Take it with a grain of salt. Hope it helps.


----------



## RUSKES (6 mo ago)

Vyking.Electric said:


> I didn’t read what type of EV and wall charger was used or over looked it, but the same thing happened to an electrician I work with. He installed a new Tesla 30 or 40 amp charger if I remember correctly. The same exact result happened to him twice back to back on the same circuit and breakers after melting the first panel. He determined the cause was the tesla model had to be set from the car to match the charge rate of the wall charger. Take it with a grain of salt. Hope it helps.


The OP does not believe in the Tesla (or any other EV) charger theory.
Called me a Idiot for brining it up.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

RUSKES said:


> a 40 Amp breaker will trip in about 10 seconds if carrying 80 Amps (200% of rating). A short pulse of 200% overload (say, 5 seconds) will not cause a trip but a continuous arching will destroy the contact area, but a continuous 200% overload will, after about 10 seconds.


Why would there be any "arching" in a closed set of breaker contacts even with a 200% load?


----------



## Deeegzz (Apr 5, 2021)

RUSKES said:


> The OP does not believe in the Tesla (or any other EV) charger theory.
> Called me a Idiot for brining it up.


LOL


----------



## Deeegzz (Apr 5, 2021)

Vyking.Electric said:


> I didn’t read what type of EV and wall charger was used or over looked it, but the same thing happened to an electrician I work with. He installed a new Tesla 30 or 40 amp charger if I remember correctly. The same exact result happened to him twice back to back on the same circuit and breakers after melting the first panel. He determined the cause was the tesla model had to be set from the car to match the charge rate of the wall charger. Take it with a grain of salt. Hope it helps.


thanks for the idea brother. 
although these chargers were set to 48amps and were shown to be pulling 48amps on the vehicle.

Also, Even if you set the vehicle for 48 amps. 
And your charger is only set to 32amps. 
it will only pull 32 amps.
I did this today on a Rivian truck and Rivian charger.
Your vehicle can’t choose to pull more than what the charger is set to.


----------



## CAUSA (Apr 3, 2013)

joe-nwt said:


> So now it's "distortion" but not harmonics.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for the emoji. Love it!


----------



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

macmikeman said:


> Water heaters are not trendy..... No bragging rule for water heaters for crying out loud. It only happens to bragging stuff.


Not water, bricks


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

That's kinda trendy as well..... but only to electricians. Right now, its electric cars, scooters, skateboards, a surfboard , bikes, and a wing board. And pv on the roof so the people who drive past your house assume you have big money someplace. Those are trendy. Ring Camera's also. Catamaran's are trendy too. what else, let me think....... oh yea, Milwaukee tools.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

RUSKES said:


> Beside all the theories, harmonics, salt water, only one CB had the problem, and only the one that feeds the Tesla. Second CB in different location exhibited same problem when trying to feed Tesla.
> *All other CB on the panel had no problem.*


No other CB's ran for multiple hours non-stop at 80% rating thought, amirite?

What the hell is the matter with you?


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Deeegzz said:


> Pretty sure I never called you an idiot.
> that’s just you thinking you are one.


Don't point your finger unless you're willing to accept the fact that the other THREE are pointing towards YOURSELF.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

emtnut said:


> Nope, the manufacturer's are working on the BMCI breaker as we speak.
> 
> (Bus Meltdown Circuit Interrupter )
> 
> ...


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

CMP said:


> After a few fires the word will start to get around, don’t do it without a line side tap, made with materials that can handle continuous loads. Plug on aluminum bus is a sure fire failure in my experience. A line side tap with a fused disconnect is a much better choice, more expensive but less liability.


This.

Full stop.

Someone had to say it.


























What???
Too soon???


----------



## RUSKES (6 mo ago)

LGLS said:


> No other CB's ran for multiple hours non-stop at 80% rating thought, amirite?
> 
> What the hell is the matter with you?


Please stop the personal insults or I will be forced to block you.


----------



## splatz (May 23, 2015)

RUSKES said:


> I can not open that document. What does it say the source of the harmonics was ?


Therer's a free powerpoint viewer. 

PPTX Viewer - Microsoft Store Apps 

The source is a large charger.


----------



## ohm it hertz (Dec 2, 2020)

RUSKES said:


> Please stop the personal insults or I will be forced to block you.


Quickly men, we must save LGLS from being blocked.


----------



## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

ohm it hertz said:


> Quickly men, we must save LGLS from being blocked.


Forget it ohm, he HAS to do HIM! You just do you. 
Obviously he still has the lingering pall of Long Island still on him, the relaxing phlegmatic atmosphere of Oneonta has yet to take effect, we’ll need to be patient.


----------



## frankendodge (Oct 25, 2019)

Let's say the stab is the weak point. They look pretty oxidized in the first picture. The second panel may be newer and indoors, but all aluminum has an oxide layer.

So the charger is a switch mode power supply, prone to voltage spikes when switching. So say its putting a couple hundred amps across the stab connection, for just a couple ms or us. That could still act like a microscopic arc gouger. Once started, cycle after cycle pitting and worsening the connection till it runs away.

Having smashed a few old breakers open, it seems by design that heating at the stab won't soak into the breaker. The connection to the thermal strip is via a braided copper jumper wire.

Just my thoughts. I know I've looked at the bus contacts in a br/seimens breaker (sqD, federal too) and wondered how that tiny metal clip can carry much current at all.

Very interested in the outcome of this. We have done a couple chargers in homes this year.. kinda unsettling.


----------



## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

RUSKES said:


> Please stop the personal insults or I will be forced to block you.


top right hand corner ... 3 vertical dots .... report is an option
he has been warned more than he has a right to


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

macmikeman said:


> That's kinda trendy as well..... but only to electricians. Right now, its electric cars, scooters, skateboards, a surfboard , bikes, and a wing board. And pv on the roof so the people who drive past your house assume you have big money someplace. Those are trendy. Ring Camera's also. Catamaran's are trendy too. what else, let me think....... oh yea, Milwaukee tools.


Hobie cats are not trendy. I had one since 1979 but haven't used it in 10 years.


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

frankendodge said:


> Let's say the stab is the weak point. They look pretty oxidized in the first picture. The second panel may be newer and indoors, but all aluminum has an oxide layer.
> 
> So the charger is a switch mode power supply, prone to voltage spikes when switching. So say its putting a couple hundred amps across the stab connection, for just a couple ms or us. That could still act like a microscopic arc gouger. Once started, cycle after cycle pitting and worsening the connection till it runs away.
> 
> ...


I think your explanation sounds the most reasonable. Occam's razor theory. Plus I worry about the quality of the new breakers. Where are they made and by whom?


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Tangent time..
A lot of people commenting about the cheap aluminum stab busses and that they should be changed to a copper bolt on panel. $$$. But isn't that what the gazillion dollar inflation reduction act is for?


----------



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

kb1jb1 said:


> Tangent time..
> A lot of people commenting about the cheap aluminum stab busses and that they should be changed to a copper bolt on panel. $$$. But isn't that what the gazillion dollar inflation reduction act is for?


I thought it was to line the politician’s pockets.


----------



## Quickservice (Apr 23, 2020)

Almost Retired said:


> check post #20
> this is a second possibility, not proven, just a theory


Good theory... I think I mentioned in another post that I have seen my share of Bryant loadcenters, especially NEMA 3R, where the aluminum buss has oxidized like crazy.


----------



## MikeWhitfield (Aug 1, 2011)

kb1jb1 said:


> Tangent time..
> A lot of people commenting about the cheap aluminum stab busses and that they should be changed to a copper bolt on panel. $$$. But isn't that what the gazillion dollar inflation reduction act is for?


Pretty sure that by law, all government bills have to be aimed at moving money from poor people to rich people and from too-almost-rich people to even richer people, but you make a good point: There's a program for everything. Now, obviously they aren't going to put anything actually related to infrastructure in an infrastructure bill, because all bills must be named for the opposite of what they do. But probably somewhere in the Educational Opportunity Act or the Africa Refreshment Act or the Cumquat Price Stability Act, there's actually a program that gives grants to people with EVs so that other people can pay for their chargers. Actually, there's probably a dozen of them.


----------



## MikeWhitfield (Aug 1, 2011)

frankendodge said:


> Let's say the stab is the weak point. They look pretty oxidized in the first picture. The second panel may be newer and indoors, but all aluminum has an oxide layer.
> 
> So the charger is a switch mode power supply, prone to voltage spikes when switching. So say its putting a couple hundred amps across the stab connection, for just a couple ms or us. That could still act like a microscopic arc gouger. Once started, cycle after cycle pitting and worsening the connection till it runs away.
> 
> ...


That's an interesting theory. The stabs SHOULD be the strongest link, but throw in an oxidized bus, perhaps marginal original design, cheap third party breaker built to good 'nough specifications, maybe they could be the leakest link at this point in the life cycle. That four-stab branch main is another argument for that - if 125A takes two stabs per phase, maybe 48A continuous is at or near the real world rating for that system, and micro-current spikes are deteriorating the stab's contacts since it's the point of most resistance. 

Arguing against that is the rapidity of the replacement breaker heating up - if it's beginning to melt in five minutes, obviously that's not due to micro-pitting; something else is going on that we're all missing. I am tempted to blame the charger (purely since I've never heard of the brand) but this seems to be a recurring issue with Tesla chargers as well and those things are significantly over-engineered. And I don't see how that much extra energy could be sneaking past an RMS meter. Deeegzz didn't say how much effort he put into removing the oxidation - aluminum oxide can be transparent and is a near-perfect insulator - but melting in five minutes at 80% load (granted that's its continuous rated ampacity, but obviously is only 80% of its non-continuous load) seems to me to be more than simple contact resistance. 
Would be VERY interesting to get that voltage & amperage logged on a high frequency oscilloscope, see what's really happening.


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

kb1jb1 said:


> Hobie cats are not trendy. I had one since 1979 but haven't used it in 10 years.


I agree. That is because it has no dodger. Put one on , make it comfortable. Run all your lines so you can control the sails without having to get soaked or thrown overboard. And reef it for crying out loud, the wind is blowing hard.


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## dvcochran (4 mo ago)

Almost Retired said:


> If you suspect harmonics .... put your meter on HZ , anything substantially over 60 is a big red flag


Agree. I was going to suggest an oscilloscope to check frequency. Some chargers work like a VFD to produce a 'fast charge'.


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

dvcochran said:


> Agree. I was going to suggest an oscilloscope to check frequency. Some chargers work like a VFD to produce a 'fast charge'.


Now we are on to something.


----------



## MikeWhitfield (Aug 1, 2011)

dvcochran said:


> Agree. I was going to suggest an oscilloscope to check frequency. Some chargers work like a VFD to produce a 'fast charge'.


Are you thinking the switching is having the effect of drastically raising the frequency, so that it's pulling more power? 

And could that actually fool a modern true RMS meter that badly? A 60A breaker should by design hold 60A (granted, at 60 Hz) for exactly three hours in its design environment. Seems like it would have to be a LOT over 60 amps to begin melting after five minutes. Again, I don't know the ambient temperature at the time but I'm sure Deeegzz was standing there with the panel front off, so shedding heat surely couldn't be that drastically worse than design conditions which might be 25 or 30 degrees but certainly closed up.


----------



## RUSKES (6 mo ago)

splatz said:


> Therer's a free powerpoint viewer.
> 
> PPTX Viewer - Microsoft Store Apps
> 
> The source is a large charger.


Just like the EV cars


----------



## Frank DuVal (Feb 6, 2009)

macmikeman said:


> Water heaters are not trendy.


They were 80 years ago! 1942, cold water flats, houses with hot water coils in the boiler, etc. Electric water heating was the new trendy thing!

In 80 years electric vehicles will not be trendy, just common.

Trendy indicates time not purpose or need.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

RUSKES said:


> Please stop the personal insults or I will be forced to block you.


Geez... wouldn't that be tragic, "Newbie???"


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

ohm it hertz said:


> Quickly men, we must save LGLS from being blocked.


NO!!!

Every man for hisself!


A B A N D O N 

S H I P !!!

Report immediately to your assigned escape pod!!! 😭


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

460 Delta said:


> Forget it ohm, he HAS to do HIM! You just do you.
> Obviously he still has the lingering pall of Long Island still on him, the relaxing phlegmatic atmosphere of Oneonta has yet to take effect, we’ll need to be patient.


OK why don't we just leave the phleg outta this, shall we?


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Almost Retired said:


> top right hand corner ... 3 vertical dots .... report is an option
> he has been warned more than he has a right to


This is news to me.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

MikeWhitfield said:


> That's an interesting theory. The stabs SHOULD be the strongest link, but throw in an oxidized bus, perhaps marginal original design, cheap third party breaker built to good 'nough specifications, maybe they could be the leakest link at this point in the life cycle. That four-stab branch main is another argument for that - if 125A takes two stabs per phase, maybe 48A continuous is at or near the real world rating for that system, and micro-current spikes are deteriorating the stab's contacts since it's the point of most resistance.
> 
> Arguing against that is the rapidity of the replacement breaker heating up - if it's beginning to melt in five minutes, obviously that's not due to micro-pitting; something else is going on that we're all missing. I am tempted to blame the charger (purely since I've never heard of the brand) but this seems to be a recurring issue with Tesla chargers as well and those things are significantly over-engineered. And I don't see how that much extra energy could be sneaking past an RMS meter. Deeegzz didn't say how much effort he put into removing the oxidation - aluminum oxide can be transparent and is a near-perfect insulator - but melting in five minutes at 80% load (granted that's its continuous rated ampacity, but obviously is only 80% of its non-continuous load) seems to me to be more than simple contact resistance.
> Would be VERY interesting to get that voltage & amperage logged on a high frequency oscilloscope, see what's really happening.


Ah there it is... Sooooo...
shooting from the hip is how you roll???
The formidable "weakest link" hypothesis...
Always the easy-out.



Well, Isn't that just "special?"



Excuse me while I relish in your superiority...


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

macmikeman said:


> I agree. That is because it has no dodger. Put one on , make it comfortable. Run all your lines so you can control the sails without having to get soaked or thrown overboard. And reef it for crying out loud, the wind is blowing hard.


I'm not crying, YOU'RE crying!


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

macmikeman said:


> Now we are on to something.


"WE?"
What's with this "we" stuff???
Ya gotta mouse in yer pocket?


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

MikeWhitfield said:


> Are you thinking the switching is having the effect of drastically raising the frequency, so that it's pulling more power?
> 
> And could that actually fool a modern true RMS meter that badly? A 60A breaker should by design hold 60A (granted, at 60 Hz) for exactly three hours in its design environment. Seems like it would have to be a LOT over 60 amps to begin melting after five minutes. Again, I don't know the ambient temperature at the time but I'm sure Deeegzz was standing there with the panel front off, so shedding heat surely couldn't be that drastically worse than design conditions which might be 25 or 30 degrees but certainly closed up.


That's because he's sourcing ALL his breakers from a supplier of ill repute.
THAT'S IT, THAT IS THE ANSWER... Ali Express, Amazon or...some dark alley.

Cuz even IF a car charger COULD melt a brandy new 60a breaker in 5 minutes...
in FACT 2 of them-
THE MAIN IS STILL HOLDING and... unaffected ... 

Impossible unless... and thus:
The OP's Shop owner's a low down cheap little punk. 
TAKING EVERYONE FOR A RIDE. 

'Cuz dat EV sure as chit can't...


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

kb1jb1 said:


> Hobie cats are not trendy. I had one since 1979 but haven't used it in 10 years.


When I was clamming by the plant near Mackamah beach... I'd witness at least a dozen that have been there... and always were. Probably still are. No sense in ever buying any boat on the North shore N E way, just "commondeer" someone else's... they'll never miss it and, probably shake your hand for doin' 'em the favor...


----------



## MikeWhitfield (Aug 1, 2011)

LGLS said:


> That's because he's sourcing ALL his breakers from a supplier of ill repute.
> THAT'S IT, THAT IS THE ANSWER... Ali Express, Amazon or...some dark alley.
> 
> Cuz even IF a car charger COULD melt a brandy new 60a breaker in 5 minutes...
> ...


Hey, these days I suspect we've all purchased some breakers down dark alleys and been glad to find 'em. I'm an electrical designer, not an electrician, and several times I've been reduced to hunting parts. Also been paid to redesign a couple jobs based on what the electrician could find in stock. Weird times.


----------



## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

MikeWhitfield said:


> Hey, these days I suspect we've all purchased some breakers down dark alleys and been glad to find 'em. I'm an electrical designer, not an electrician, and several times I've been reduced to hunting parts. Also been paid to redesign a couple jobs based on what the electrician could find in stock. Weird times.


Pffft, lightweight, my favorite SH is eBay, the thrill of NOS, and “gently used” made in the USA gear has been my go to for years.


My builds show it also.


----------



## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

LGLS said:


> OK why don't we just leave the phleg outta this, shall we?


Phlegmatic = calm, thoughtful, not easily agitated.

I hear claw hammer banjo playing can soothe the savage beast.


----------



## RUSKES (6 mo ago)

LGLS said:


> frankendodge said:
> Let's say the stab is the weak point. They look pretty oxidized in the first picture. The second panel may be newer and indoors, but all aluminum has an oxide layer.
> 
> So the charger is a switch mode power supply, prone to voltage spikes when switching. So say its putting a couple hundred amps across the stab connection, for just a couple ms or us. That could still act like a microscopic arc gouger. Once started, cycle after cycle pitting and worsening the connection till it runs away.
> ...


*And this example is where. and why I blocked you.
Hope others will join me.*


----------



## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

Feel better?


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

RUSKES said:


> Please stop the personal insults or I will be forced to block you.


Sure, whatever you say Hacksmith...


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

RUSKES said:


> *And this example is where I blocked you.
> Hope others will join me.*


Damn I'm so good at manipulating others I scare myself sometimes.

But not this time. SWOOSH! Nothing but net!


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

RUSKES said:


> *And this example is where I blocked you.
> Hope others will join me.*


Man this is pure gold!  👏


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

460 Delta said:


> Pffft, lightweight, my favorite SH is eBay, the thrill of NOS, and “gently used” made in the USA gear has been my go to for years.
> 
> 
> My builds show it also.


One thing about ebay. Years back at a contractors meeting there was a supply hous and a Square D rep who cautioned about buying off eBay a similar sites. No warranty if not bought through legitimate sales. This was to hinder theft and counterfeit products. This was after Storm Sandy in the N/E. There was also a lot of water damaged but brand new stock that made it into the market.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

@Dennis Alwon please relocate that post to the controversial board?


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

macmikeman said:


> I agree. That is because it has no dodger. Put one on , make it comfortable. Run all your lines so you can control the sails without having to get soaked or thrown overboard. And reef it for crying out loud, the wind is blowing hard.


I remember the fun parts were getting wet, getting tossed in the air and flipping. Where I use to sail in the Great South Bay there were lots of sand bars. One minute you are in 15 feet of water and then you are in 2 feet. My dagger boards drew 3 feet so we instantly flipped. The good old days.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

MikeWhitfield said:


> Hey, these days I suspect we've all purchased some breakers down dark alleys and been glad to find 'em. I'm an electrical designer, not an electrician, and several times I've been reduced to hunting parts. Also been paid to redesign a couple jobs based on what the electrician could find in stock. Weird times.


Now I got questions:
What's an electrical "designer?" 
Why are you here?
Why am I? 
Why do I care?

I hate question marks and wanna word with whomever invented them.


----------



## MikeWhitfield (Aug 1, 2011)

LGLS said:


> Now I got questions:
> What's an electrical "designer?"
> Why are you here?
> Why am I?
> ...


An electrical designer is an engineer who never finished his degree. And I'm here mostly to learn. I can learn some things from engineering boards, but for other things I've gotta go to the men who actually do the work. Even if it's my own job, sometimes I know there was a problem, but I don't know the solution unless it makes its way up to me and I have to solve it. I want to know all the solutions so that I avoid all the problems. Takes a little effort but it beats staggering from rake to rake learning things the hard way. 

I say here mostly to learn 'cause I love semi-informed speculation as much as any electrician.


----------



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

We work mostly on a lack of information.


----------



## MikeWhitfield (Aug 1, 2011)

460 Delta said:


> Pffft, lightweight, my favorite SH is eBay, the thrill of NOS, and “gently used” made in the USA gear has been my go to for years.
> 
> 
> My builds show it also.


2022 is the year we all stopped asking why four new meter centers on the same B-Line are from four different manufacturers. Or why one of them has a placard reading "Shoe Show" when these are all serving brand new empty retail spaces. Or why those retail spaces are wired with medical grade "MC" cable. It's also the year when you ask the guy at the counter how long your quote is good for, and he looks at the front door and says "About thirty feet."


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

MikeWhitfield said:


> An electrical designer is an engineer who never finished his degree. And I'm here mostly to learn. I can learn some things from engineering boards, but for other things I've gotta go to the men who actually do the work. Even if it's my own job, sometimes I know there was a problem, but I don't know the solution unless it makes its way up to me and I have to solve it. I want to know all the solutions so that I avoid all the problems. Takes a little effort but it beats staggering from rake to rake learning things the hard way.
> 
> I say here mostly to learn 'cause I love semi-informed speculation as much as any electrician.


It's good to have someone with engineering knowledge but can speak electrician's language. We have to make what the engineer puts on paper work and sometimes that is not easy. As you said avoiding any problems is what we should aim for.


----------



## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

RUSKES said:


> *And this example is where. and why I blocked you.
> Hope others will join me.*


hey @RUSKES that lawn guy just said something bad about you, good that you got him blocked


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

ohm it hertz said:


> Each of my installs involved hybrid EVs and the vehicles were manufactured by many different companies.
> 
> I once replaced two main breakers and eventually the entire main breaker panel and all of the breakers contained inside because this exact thing was happening. Once the panel was replaced the problems stopped happening. The odd thing about it though was the service was relatively new.


AHA! You you're onto something here. I Wish the OP would have given more FACTS from the get-go, Like, the whole panel is outdoors, on the salt water ocean... and judging from all the photos posted thus far, MY opinion is that the combination of the 2 60a 2P breakers melting immediately,,, AND it's an outdoor panel, AND it's doused in salty mist more often than not, AND the main is NOT tripping all put together, all things considered, that it isn't any ONE problem but the entire combination of negative factors that is the problem. The solution has been revealed already anyways... tap the line side of the main and directly into a FUSED disco right there & then... Properly label "NOT PROTECATED MY SERVICE MAINA - DO NOT OVERLOAD" or something along those lines and ALSO it's clear and obvious a new main is needed if not the OP stated I believe the entire shebang is slated for a renovation of epic proportoion anyway, so that base is covered as well, but if not, then that probably should've happened already anyways and based on the overall condition of that service equipment, it don't owe the homeowner nothing anyway, it was neither a well thought out plan to stick a new 60 load in there to begin with, and the execution of the actual plan the HO CHOOSE to implement wass dismal and uninspired... did it on the cheap, and for the life of me I cannot grasp this conceptual train-wreck that is "decision-making on the cheap," as if anyone lately shops for the CHEAPEST car or truck. Must be simple ignorance, because it fits, we're gonna ship it g-d damnit to heII anyways...


Quickservice said:


> Good theory... I think I mentioned in another post that I have seen my share of Bryant loadcenters, especially NEMA 3R, where the aluminum buss has oxidized like crazy.


Yes, but this one is not only old and outdated, the main is also likely corroded to the point it never gives up even while 1 60a breakers went supernova. It's OUTDOORS in the SALT air. Bet all those breakers are just really for show and none of them may ever trip whether they should or shouldn't.


460 Delta said:


> Pffft, lightweight, my favorite SH is eBay, the thrill of NOS, and “gently used” made in the USA gear has been my go to for years.
> 
> 
> My builds show it also.


Nothing wrong with that but, you do realize a lot of stuff bought off the interwebs IS stolen, right? I have now been schooled and well-versed, and like all of the best self-teachings roll, Learned the haed way when a Heroin addict tried to sell me my OWN generator, when I had no idea it was even missing. Luckily I took photos of the serial $ when I bought it, even though the hardware store it came from sold me 6, and keep those records as well as a matter of company policy. 

This is why the last 2 times in Manhattan when a random stranger offers complete compliments of tools, I declined every time- and called "NY's finest" and both times enough identifying clues (Name in Perm ink on the BOTTOM inside of the Klein canvas bag and Name First and LAST on the tool handles and UNDER the protective grip as well to find their rightful owners and arrest the dirtbags... both happen to be working on construction sites AS GUARDS or LOOKOUT as their regular job, but paid like chit. Because GCs and developers never pay good wages to anyone if they can help it. 


460 Delta said:


> Phlegmatic = calm, thoughtful, not easily agitated.
> 
> I hear claw hammer banjo playing can soothe the savage beast.


ANd I can vouch for that as well...  


RUSKES said:


> *And this example is where I blocked you.
> Hope others will join me.*





joe-nwt said:


> Feel better?





kb1jb1 said:


> One thing about ebay. Years back at a contractors meeting there was a supply hous and a Square D rep who cautioned about buying off eBay a similar sites. No warranty if not bought through legitimate sales. This was to hinder theft and counterfeit products. This was after Storm Sandy in the N/E. There was also a lot of water damaged but brand new stock that made it into the market.





kb1jb1 said:


> I remember the fun parts were getting wet, getting tossed in the air and flipping. Where I use to sail in the Great South Bay there were lots of sand bars. One minute you are in 15 feet of water and then you are in 2 feet. My dagger boards drew 3 feet so we instantly flipped. The good old days.





MikeWhitfield said:


> An electrical designer is an engineer who never finished his degree. And I'm here mostly to learn. I can learn some things from engineering boards, but for other things I've gotta go to the men who actually do the work. Even if it's my own job, sometimes I know there was a problem, but I don't know the solution unless it makes its way up to me and I have to solve it. I want to know all the solutions so that I avoid all the problems. Takes a little effort but it beats staggering from rake to rake learning things the hard way.
> 
> I say here mostly to learn 'cause I love semi-informed speculation as much as any electrician.


Damn now you did it. For the first time in a very long time. Frank used to get my answers and implememt the solutions or knew what it took to


----------



## RUSKES (6 mo ago)

readydave8 said:


> hey @RUSKES that lawn guy just said something bad about you, good that you got him blocked


OK, I have peace and quiet now


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

backstay said:


> We work mostly on a lack of information.


We, the willing, lead by the unknowing have, thus far -
...Been working for so hard, so long, and with no resources for so long...
-That we're all now qualified to do anything with nothing!


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

kb1jb1 said:


> One thing about ebay. Years back at a contractors meeting there was a supply hous and a Square D rep who cautioned about buying off eBay a similar sites. No warranty if not bought through legitimate sales. This was to hinder theft and counterfeit products. This was after Storm Sandy in the N/E. There was also a lot of water damaged but brand new stock that made it into the market.


Well remember that SqD counterfeit breaker thing from about 12-14 years ago? They were barely switches, had none of the internals to do the job, and were noticeable lighter in weight... yet sparks all over- driven (Mad my opinion) in a quest for ever greater profits, put 'em in anyways KNOWING something just wasn't right with the price they paid and the unit's lack of heft, and sloppy appearance even a cavemean could spot it.


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Would this have anything to do with the melt down? I looked at the instructions and it said to install only on a 50 amp breaker. The OP used a 60.


----------



## ohm it hertz (Dec 2, 2020)

kb1jb1 said:


> Would this have anything to do with the melt down? I looked at the instructions and it said to install only on a 50 amp breaker. The OP used a 60.


Correct - the cord and plug instructions are 50A OCPD. However hardwired instructions show this as well:


----------



## Deeegzz (Apr 5, 2021)

kb1jb1 said:


> Would this have anything to do with the melt down? I looked at the instructions and it said to install only on a 50 amp breaker. The OP used a 60.


Instructions for what? 
my charger?

current selector can be set to multiple options.
48amp charge rate with 60amp breaker is one of the options.


----------



## Deeegzz (Apr 5, 2021)

ohm it hertz said:


> Correct - the cord and plug instructions are 50A OCPD. However hardwired instructions show this as well:
> 
> View attachment 169214


Just responded to his message. Didn’t see you posted this. 
thanks


----------



## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

LGLS said:


> .
> 
> Nothing wrong with that but, you do realize a lot of stuff bought off the interwebs IS stolen, right? I have now been schooled and well-versed, and like all of the best self-teachings roll, Learned the haed way when a Heroin addict tried to sell me my OWN generator, when I had no idea it was even missing. Luckily I took photos of the serial $ when I bought it, even though the hardware store it came from sold me 6, and keep those records as well as a matter of company policy.


I only buy from reputable sources like The Electric Barn, Next Day Automation, and River City Industrial. They are surplus and plant liquidation companies. I feel pretty safe buying from them. I'm not buying from some guys trunk who has a New York accent.


----------



## frankendodge (Oct 25, 2019)

Relish in my superiority? Im flattered.
Did you not get hugged as a child lgls? You must be everyone's favorite to work with. Reading your rants is like hearing fingers on a chalkboard. Do you have an actual theory to contribute, or some rationl discussion? Just the angry opinion that we're all dumber than you and in need of a banning? 

Yes, any "weakest link" hypothesis is surly wrong. Things don't fail at the weakest link.. They always fail at the most robust point. Duh.
The bus stab connection is clearly that, as that is where the breaker burnt up. Not the wire termination. Not inside the middle of the breaker. The stab burnt up. Keep that in mind.
The only real unknown is what exactly caused it. Thats where I hypothesized.


----------



## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

RUSKES said:


> OK, I have peace and quiet now


it eliminates a huge amount of irrelevant comments that have cluttered these threads lately


----------



## MikeWhitfield (Aug 1, 2011)

Deeegzz said:


> Instructions for what?
> my charger?
> 
> current selector can be set to multiple options.
> 48amp charge rate with 60amp breaker is one of the options.


I wonder if that would have the force of Code, 'cause my inclination would be to leave the 60A C/B (after all, internal components clearly can handle that) whilst dialing down to 40A maximum. His car would take 25% longer to charge but personally I'd prefer that to my house maybe burning down. 

I think you are correct that the panel needs to be replaced. Probably a good idea to make that recommendation when one prices a job; then if/when there's an issue it's clear that it's not your issue. I'm still very interested in your final diagnosis though, as it will affect how I design a similar project. I not only don't want to buy the homeowner a new panel, I don't even want to waste my time arguing about it.


----------



## Deeegzz (Apr 5, 2021)

MikeWhitfield said:


> I wonder if that would have the force of Code, 'cause my inclination would be to leave the 60A C/B (after all, internal components clearly can handle that) whilst dialing down to 40A maximum. His car would take 25% longer to charge but personally I'd prefer that to my house maybe burning down.
> 
> I think you are correct that the panel needs to be replaced. Probably a good idea to make that recommendation when one prices a job; then if/when there's an issue it's clear that it's not your issue. I'm still very interested in your final diagnosis though, as it will affect how I design a similar project. I not only don't want to buy the homeowner a new panel, I don't even want to waste my time arguing about it.


I’ll update y’all when I replace the panel. 
should be on the 18th


----------



## RUSKES (6 mo ago)

Deeegzz said:


> I’ll update y’all when I replace the panel.
> should be on the 18th


At your company cost !?


----------



## Deeegzz (Apr 5, 2021)

RUSKES said:


> At your company cost !?


You do understand that I don’t run the company right? 
these decisions were made and thought out by people in charge.

I don’t even know why I respond to you. Every single one of your replies is argumentative. Lol
Have a great day brother


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Deeegzz said:


> Instructions for what?
> my charger?
> 
> current selector can be set to multiple options.
> 48amp charge rate with 60amp breaker is one of the options.


This thread is long. I forgot you installed a plug on it. Why would it be 60 amps for a hard wire and 50 amps for the plug in?


----------



## Deeegzz (Apr 5, 2021)

kb1jb1 said:


> This thread is long. I forgot you installed a plug on it. Why would it be 60 amps for a hard wire and 50 amps for the plug in?


i DIDNT install a plug. It was hard wired. 
the cord is compatible with a nema14-50. 
So max is 50amps.

To get the 48amp charge rate option you have to hardwire. Since the charger doesn’t come with a cord and plug to match a 60amp plug.


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Prior to the 2020 NEC we are suppose to wire for the maximum possible. The 2020 NEC allows us to use the dial down settings for our ampacity. NEC 625.42


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Deeegzz said:


> i DIDNT install a plug. It was hard wired.
> the cord is compatible with a nema14-50.
> So max is 50amps.
> 
> To get the 48amp charge rate option you have to hardwire. Since the charger doesn’t come with a cord and plug to match a 60amp plug.


Sorry. It was a long day today. I had it backwards. I wanted to respond so you did think I was doubting your install. You did it right and followed the instructions. My bad. There are some unrelated name calling going on and it was also getting me confused.


----------



## Deeegzz (Apr 5, 2021)

kb1jb1 said:


> Sorry. It was a long day today. I had it backwards. I wanted to respond so you did think I was doubting your install. You did it right and followed the instructions. My bad. There are some unrelated name calling going on and it was also getting me confused.





kb1jb1 said:


> Sorry. It was a long day today. I had it backwards. I wanted to respond so you did think I was doubting your install. You did it right and followed the instructions. My bad. There are some unrelated name calling going on and it was also getting me confused.


😂😂😂
This whole thread has gotten shitty. Lol difficult to follow along


----------



## Deeegzz (Apr 5, 2021)

kb1jb1 said:


> Prior to the 2020 NEC we are suppose to wire for the maximum possible. The 2020 NEC allows us to use the dial down settings for our ampacity. NEC 625.42


We always wire for the highest ampacity. 
it’s a great idea to future proof it.

who knows, in the future they might upgrade there service and be able to use the full charge rate. It’ll be ready.


----------



## RUSKES (6 mo ago)

Deeegzz said:


> You do understand that I don’t run the company right?
> these decisions were made and thought out by people in charge.
> 
> I don’t even know why I respond to you. Every single one of your replies is argumentative. Lol
> Have a great day brother


sorry my fault.
If you company gave you the right tool for the job, you could have determined the Arching on the CB, and telling the owner the wall charger is defective.


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

I think some, myself included, are trying to top 400. Lets us know if the true reason for the burn out comes to light. This is a very important topic that we should be on top of. All this electronic and new trendy stuff is constantly changing and probably 83% of us do not keep up with it.


----------



## RUSKES (6 mo ago)

kb1jb1 said:


> I think some, myself included, are trying to top 400. Lets us know if the true reason for the burn out comes to light. This is a very important topic that we should be on top of. All this electronic and new trendy stuff is constantly changing and probably 83% of us do not keep up with it.


OK 37 years veteran a question to you:
Did the CB melt due to continuous overload or Arcing/Harmonics.
If it was continuous, why did the CB not react.
If it was arcing/harmonics, CB could not react to that.
If it was arcing where did the current surges originate.


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

kb1jb1 said:


> I think some, myself included, are trying to top 400. Lets us know if the true reason for the burn out comes to light. This is a very important topic that we should be on top of. All this electronic and new trendy stuff is constantly changing and probably 83% of us do not keep up with it.


AHA! Another poster is calling it trendy. Now we have a conspiracy!


----------



## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

macmikeman said:


> AHA! Another poster is calling it trendy. Now we have a conspiracy!


The FACT it is a conspiracy was never in question was it?
We just have to determine which cabal is orchestrating it.
I’m the lone voice again—— 5G.


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

460 Delta said:


> The FACT it is a conspiracy was never in question was it?
> We just have to determine which cabal is orchestrating it.
> I’m the lone voice again—— 5G.


Have you seen any of the look over the shoulder then point , then drop dead video's yet? I'm talking Kareeepee............


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Here.....


----------



## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

RUSKES said:


> OK 37 years veteran a question to you:
> Did the CB melt due to continuous overload or Arcing/Harmonics.
> If it was continuous, why did the CB not react.
> If it was arcing/harmonics, CB could not react to that.
> If it was arcing where did the current surges originate.


you forgot to include bad connection between the breaker and the buss
which is where the damage was

i have seen QO, ITE, and GE breakers (in their brand of panel)
burn up exactly like the OP's pics
and they never tripped
the wire never showed signs of heating exactly exactly like the OP's pics

because it was not an over load or high amps
it was a bad connection


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

macmikeman said:


> AHA! Another poster is calling it trendy. Now we have a conspiracy!


I was following your lead. It is a very cool word.


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

RUSKES said:


> OK 37 years veteran a question to you:
> Did the CB melt due to continuous overload or Arcing/Harmonics.
> If it was continuous, why did the CB not react.
> If it was arcing/harmonics, CB could not react to that.
> If it was arcing where did the current surges originate.


I like to keep things simple. If it was harmonics then we would have seen many more failures across the country. What I have seen in my travels is similar burn outs for other loads such as AC units or other motor loads with no harmonics involved. Until a definite answer, I will stick with buss bar / breaker problem. You can have a defective breaker, I know I have. We have defective GFCI and AFCI. One of my posts I mentioned a problem I had with some Siemens breakers where it did not sit on the fin correctly and it never tripped out. Someone else posted that the heat could have been conducted into the buss bar instead of the internal trip mechanism of the breaker. This was an older panel installed outdoors 150 feet from the ocean in the sun. Those are the facts we know at present.


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Only 50 more to go!


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Maybe we should do some product evaluations on our own, start checking the resistance of different brands and catalog numbers for busbar arrangements on common load centers. Make a public list. Then we can check new installations , or even existing ones against a ( I'm struggling with the proper word to use here) common point of reference. I guess this would best be done before purchase, so the employee's of wholesale houses are going to have to get used to us asking them to open the boxes up and take a fluke to them....... Same goes for box stores , we are gonna have to block the aisle for a bit while we destroy the boxing on many stacked load centers till we come across a proper bus arraingement with a good reading. Sorry about the mess I left on the bathroom isle. Maybe you should have moved the electrical away from the bathroom in the first place Home Depot. Ya you.......


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

If it turns out that there are problems with EV wall ports, we will never know. That would go against the Green Initiative. Just like the lithium batteries. Don't worry, everything is good.


----------



## RUSKES (6 mo ago)

kb1jb1 said:


> I like to keep things simple. If it was harmonics then we would have seen many more failures across the country. What I have seen in my travels is similar burn outs for other loads such as AC units or other motor loads with no harmonics involved. Until a definite answer, I will stick with buss bar / breaker problem. You can have a defective breaker, I know I have. We have defective GFCI and AFCI. One of my posts I mentioned a problem I had with some Siemens breakers where it did not sit on the fin correctly and it never tripped out. Someone else posted that the heat could have been conducted into the buss bar instead of the internal trip mechanism of the breaker. This was an older panel installed outdoors 150 feet from the ocean in the sun. Those are the facts we know at present.


Agree with your comment.
Arching will occur on the weakest point of the connection.
In this case the buss bar was not made electrically clean.


----------



## RUSKES (6 mo ago)

kb1jb1 said:


> If it turns out that there are problems with EV wall ports, we will never know. That would go against the Green Initiative. Just like the lithium batteries. Don't worry, everything is good.


EV wall port is responsible to tell the EV car who it is.
Since the current is a pull and not push, the EV car must know how much can it pull.
EV car can pull 3 times more than the EV port offers.


----------



## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

RUSKES said:


> And my theory is:
> *It is EV charger fault.*
> The on-board power management converting AC to DC failed.
> It was turning on/off the current flow in very rapid sequence, thus not triggering the breaker, but overheating the connection. AK as harmonics.
> 😎🤯





RUSKES said:


> *because of the harmonics*





RUSKES said:


> Beside all the theories, harmonics, salt water, only one CB had the problem, and only the one that feeds the Tesla. *Second CB in different location exhibited same problem when trying to feed Tesla.
> All other CB on the panel had no problem.
> That is why I blame Tesla.*
> Arching will occurs on the weakest point of the circuit.
> ...





RUSKES said:


> Beside all the theories, harmonics, salt water, only one CB had the problem, and only the one that feeds the Tesla. Second CB in different location exhibited same problem when trying to feed Tesla.
> *All other CB on the panel had no problem.*





RUSKES said:


> So you do not agree with my logic ? so be it. Chase the harmonics then.
> Beside all the theories, harmonics, salt water, only one CB had the problem,* and only the one that feeds the Tesla.* Second CB in different location exhibited same problem when trying to feed Tesla.
> *All other CB on the panel had no problem.*





RUSKES said:


> *Let's say it is a faulty rectifier and turns on/of in rapid sequence. That would create huge but short current spikes, that would attack the weakest connection spot.*





RUSKES said:


> Not the same as truing on/off the load. The AC is sine wave, thus goes slowly too low or too high.
> *A abrupt on/off will create current surges.*





RUSKES said:


> No Daring, not that one,
> *I am talking about the ON-BOARD power regulator charger. The one inside the car.*





RUSKES said:


> *And we are back to it is the EV charger to blame.*
> See my post #127





RUSKES said:


> That is because the heaters do not have AC-DC converters like EV chargers.
> 
> *Not properly shielded large AC/DC Rectifiers will create a distortion in electrical system (unbalanced load). Call it harmonics or what you like.*





RUSKES said:


> a 40 Amp breaker will trip in about 10 seconds if carrying 80 Amps (200% of rating). *A short pulse of 200% overload (say, 5 seconds) will not cause a trip but a continuous arching will destroy the contact area, but a continuous 200% overload will, after about 10 seconds.*





RUSKES said:


> *Just like the EV cars*





RUSKES said:


> sorry my fault.
> If you company gave you the right tool for the job, *you could have determined the Arching on the CB, and telling the owner the wall charger is defective.*





RUSKES said:


> Agree with your comment.
> *Arching will occur on the weakest point of the connection.*
> In this case the buss bar was not made electrically clean.





RUSKES said:


> EV wall port is responsible to tell the EV car who it is.
> Since the current is a pull and not push, the EV car must know how much can it pull.
> *EV car can pull 3 times more than the EV port offers.*


Bravo! Through the meticulous application of circular logic, you have all the bases covered!

No further investigation required: might as well throw your "I told you so" out right now.

I'm probably blocked. If someone could be so kind as to quote me?


----------



## Forge Boyz (Nov 7, 2014)

joe-nwt said:


> Bravo! Through the meticulous application of circular logic, you have all the bases covered!
> 
> No further investigation required: might as well throw your "I told you so" out right now.
> 
> I'm probably blocked. If someone could be so kind as to quote me?


Hi Joe! [emoji112]

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## RUSKES (6 mo ago)

This looks like bad job.
The oxidation of the panel was ignored by OP and he did not clean it, and that lead to bad connection between the breaker and the panel..
In turn that lead to Arching, that did not trigger regular breaker (arcing is too fast for that) but continuous arcing melted the connection.
It is known fact that any bad connection can lead to arcing.
That is why they invented AFCI to replace regular thermal element breaker to prevent exactly that.


----------



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

joe-nwt said:


> Bravo! Through the meticulous application of circular logic, you have all the bases covered!
> 
> No further investigation required: might as well throw your "I told you so" out right now.
> 
> I'm probably blocked. If someone could be so kind as to quote me?


You are quoted.


----------



## RUSKES (6 mo ago)

backstay said:


> You are quoted.


Thank you
hope his boss will forgive him for having to spend thousands to replace the panel.


----------



## CMP (Oct 30, 2019)

joe-nwt said:


> Bravo! Through the meticulous application of circular logic, you have all the bases covered!
> 
> No further investigation required: might as well throw your "I told you so" out right now.
> 
> I'm probably blocked. If someone could be so kind as to quote me?


Joe, thanks for taking the time to summarize that rant, someone needed to. It looks to me like there is a lack of moderation going on here.

But if your blocked, you missed out on the last gem.




> The OP already hates me, so be it, but I did not say anything to offend him, *till now*


So it seems the intent all along was to offend. Maybe it’s just my ignorance, but I took the whole diatribe as offensive. Including the spelling, repeatedly going back and forth. I have been waiting for the root cause to come up, but the wild speculations just keeps going.

Suggesting that an AFCI, the bane of contractor’s everywhere, is the ultimate solution just proves the lack of understanding, that the AFCI protects for arc signatures downstream of protection device, not from their upstream source.

I come here to learn and contribute, but threads like this are neither entertaining or factual. Stuff like this belongs in the controversial section where the real ranters hang out and never contribute any real useable knowledge.


----------



## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

joe-nwt said:


> Bravo! Through the meticulous application of circular logic, you have all the bases covered!
> 
> No further investigation required: might as well throw your "I told you so" out right now.
> 
> I'm probably blocked. If someone could be so kind as to quote me?


Well done Joe 

Bottom line, everyone knows the meltdown happened because the OP didn't install the required Kenny Clamp 😘


----------



## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

emtnut said:


> Well done Joe
> 
> Bottom line, everyone knows the meltdown happened because the OP didn't install the required Kenny Clamp 😘


Totally fallacious.

What happened is the installer used offset box connectors on the conduit, notched a stud with a Ryobi saw to fit it in, and banged out the chunk with a non Estwing hammer.

Other contributing causes are not pretwisting the wire nut connections, and not putting tape on the wire nuts after the fact.
Other possible causes are not using a torque wrench to tighten all screws to factory specifications, and marking with an AHJ approved marker.
Kenny Clamps are like the Mothman and Bigfoot, mythological only, they don’t exist.




This ought to get this over 400 and moved to Controversial.


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

363. What is a Kenny Clamp?


----------



## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

460 Delta said:


> ... and not putting tape on the wire nuts after the fact.


 This is a pro forum, I know that everyone here tapes their nuts.

I can't believe you even suggested it 

#364


----------



## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

emtnut said:


> This is a pro forum, I know that everyone here tapes their nuts.
> 
> I can't believe you even suggested it
> 
> #364


You Canadians probably have special “Marretts” with a ground bonding screw.


----------



## CMP (Oct 30, 2019)

Could we introduce the concept of thermal runaway, before jumping straight to harmonics and “arching” ?


----------



## RUSKES (6 mo ago)

CMP said:


> Could we introduce the concept of thermal runaway, before jumping straight to harmonics and “arching” ?


enlighten us,
what is your definition of the thermal runaway


----------



## Deeegzz (Apr 5, 2021)

RUSKES said:


> This looks like bad job.
> The oxidation of the panel was ignored by OP and he did not clean it, and that lead to bad connection between the breaker and the panel..
> In turn that lead to Arching, that did not trigger regular breaker (arcing is too fast for that) but continuous arcing melted the connection.
> It is known fact that any bad connection can lead to arcing.
> That is why they invented AFCI to replace regular thermal element breaker to prevent exactly that.


Dude.
are you just trolling? Lol
You are beyond annoying.
So many incorrect assumptions.

for starters, who told you I installed the charger
You also keep mentioning afci breakers.
where the hell do you get a 2 pole 60amp afci?
You’re insane man lol


----------



## RUSKES (6 mo ago)

Deeegzz said:


> Dude.
> are you just trolling? Lol
> You are beyond annoying.
> So many incorrect assumptions.
> ...


I did not say you installed the wall charger, but did you at least verify if it is on correct setting ?
As for AFCI, EATON and others makes them.
You burned the panel then run here to find out what you did wrong, so you can tell your boss it was not your fault. 
Did you tell him the Harmonics theory that only happened to you. ?


----------



## Deeegzz (Apr 5, 2021)

RUSKES said:


> I did not say you installed the wall charger, but did you at least verify if it is on correct setting ?
> As for AFCI, EATON and others makes them.
> You burned the panel then run here to find out what you did wrong, so you can tell your boss it was not your fault.
> Did you tell him the Harmonics theory that only happened to you. ?


Do they? Link one here for me.

oh, now I burned the panel? 
Man. You’re a smarty.


----------



## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

RUSKES said:


> I did not say you installed the wall charger, but did you at least verify if it is on correct setting ?
> As for AFCI, EATON and others makes them.
> You burned the panel then run here to find out what you did wrong, so you can tell your boss it was not your fault.
> Did you tell him the Harmonics theory that only happened to you. ?


Is insulting OP productive?

I suspect you're a better electrician than me, but . . .


----------



## Deeegzz (Apr 5, 2021)

readydave8 said:


> Is insulting OP productive?
> 
> I suspect you're a better electrician than me, but . . .


Dude is crazy


readydave8 said:


> Is insulting OP productive?
> 
> I suspect you're a better electrician than me, but . . .


 I’m still waiting for him to show me the 2p60amp AFCI breaker he Keeps talking about


----------



## RUSKES (6 mo ago)

Deeegzz said:


> Do they? Link one here for me.
> 
> oh, now I burned the panel?
> Man. You’re a smarty.


So why are you *REPLACING* the whole panel then ?


----------



## Deeegzz (Apr 5, 2021)

RUSKES said:


> So why are you *REPLACING* the whole panel then ?


Waiting on that two pole 60amp Eaton afci. 
let me know when you find one.


----------



## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

RUSKES said:


> enlighten us,
> what is your definition of the thermal runaway


Simple.....stuff getting too hot.


----------



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

RUSKES said:


> Thank you
> hope his boss will forgive him for having to spend thousands to replace the panel.


I don’t think Joe did any of the work.


----------



## RUSKES (6 mo ago)

backstay said:


> I don’t think Joe did any of the work.


Joe denies it now ?


----------



## Deeegzz (Apr 5, 2021)

RUSKES said:


> Thank you
> hope his boss will forgive him for having to spend thousands to replace the panel.


Lmfao. 
thousands?

dude. Have you ever replaced a panel.


----------



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

RUSKES said:


> Joe denies it now ?


I could put money on the fact Joe will deny any of the work.


----------



## Deeegzz (Apr 5, 2021)

backstay said:


> I could put money on the fact Joe will deny any of the work.


I’m so lost. Who’s Joe. 
fill me in lol


----------



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Deeegzz said:


> I’m so lost. Who’s Joe.
> fill me in lol


The Canadian that put Ruskes posts together in a montage to show him going in a circle.


----------



## Deeegzz (Apr 5, 2021)

backstay said:


> The Canadian that put Ruskes posts together in a montage to show him going in a circle.


Ahh. Hahahaha.
I need to go see that.


----------



## RUSKES (6 mo ago)

Asking for your help

A heinous Murder was committed

This is the crime scene with some evidance found









The suspect tried to burn the Victim, but did not succeed totally destroying the evidance.

The Victim









We are seeking your help to apprehend the suspect.


----------



## Deeegzz (Apr 5, 2021)

RUSKES said:


> Asking for your help
> 
> A heinous Murder was committed
> 
> ...


Still waiting for you to show me that special breaker that will solve all of the worlds problems.


----------



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

RUSKES said:


> Asking for your help
> 
> A heinous Murder was committed
> 
> ...


You’re talking in circles again.


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Trendy.......


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

I don't think Fort Myers Beach exists any more. It's all gone.


----------



## CMP (Oct 30, 2019)

RUSKES said:


> Asking for your help
> 
> A heinous Murder was committed
> 
> ...


Analyze the evidence photos you submitted. What is missing from the evidence?
How many arc marks do you count?
Where was the thermal runaway the greatest?
What materials are there in the breaker to conduct the heat into the thermal element of the breaker?
How would a AFCI breaker change the final result displayed herein?


----------



## RUSKES (6 mo ago)

backstay said:


> You’re talking in circles again.


maybe I am, but we still have a crime to solve


----------



## CMP (Oct 30, 2019)

macmikeman said:


> I don't think Fort Myers Beach exists any more. It's all gone.


Were you planning on heading over to through your board in?

You could borrow my whitewater boat and spray skirt, for a safer exploratory first run. But bring your own hi-float jacket.


----------



## RUSKES (6 mo ago)

Deeegzz said:


> Still waiting for you to show me that special breaker that will solve all of the worlds problems.


You might think this is funny, but it is not.
You almost burned a home.


----------



## frankendodge (Oct 25, 2019)

I think Colonel mustard killed Mrs Peacock in the bathroom with a candlestick. Crime solved.

Maybe you need a 100 afci main deeegz? Pretty sure you can just tie the handles of 2 50s together with some #10.


----------



## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

several days ago this was a fairly interesting thread


----------



## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

460 Delta said:


> You Canadians probably have special “Marretts” with a ground bonding screw.


And you Yanks probably have special "Marrettes" with a GFCI.  

394


----------



## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

CMP said:


> Analyze the evidence photos you submitted. What is missing from the evidence?
> How many arc marks do you count?
> Where was the thermal runaway the greatest?
> What materials are there in the breaker to conduct the heat into the thermal element of the breaker?
> How would a AFCI breaker change the final result displayed herein?


The left contact looks pristine, it's not even discolored. The mark on the right contact is shiny, might be from prying that melted mess out of the panel. Certainly not splatter from "arching".


----------



## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

well .... this post makes 396
looks like we will pass 400


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Deeegzz said:


> Still waiting for you to show me that special breaker that will solve all of the worlds problems.


It's the weekend. Supply houses are not open and the internet is sort of useless looking for a 60 amp AFCI breaker. One site had one for $950.00.

That magical breaker sometimes picks up arcing upstream and downstream. A meter crew from the utility was tell me last year they were having problems, although rare, with after installing the new smart meters the AFCI breakers had some tripping.

#397


----------



## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

kb1jb1 said:


> It's the weekend. Supply houses are not open and the internet is sort of useless looking for a 60 amp AFCI breaker. One site had one for $950.00.
> 
> That magical breaker sometimes picks up arcing upstream and downstream. A meter crew from the utility was tell me last year they were having problems, although rare, with after installing the new smart meters the AFCI breakers had some tripping.
> 
> #397


it would be nice if we knew what brand they were


----------



## Deeegzz (Apr 5, 2021)

RUSKES said:


> You might think this is funny, but it is not.
> You almost burned a home.


There you go assuming again.


----------



## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

RUSKES said:


> You might think this is funny, but it is not.
> You almost burned a home.


how was the home supposed to catch on fire ?
the wires on the breaker werent even melted
i have seen this exact same scenario with burned up lugs at least 50 times and nothing else in the box was hurt much less the house
i have had enough, i am turning you off


----------



## frankendodge (Oct 25, 2019)

Congrats Almost Retired, you made 400! 😀 

I would be interested to see a volt drop test over a few minutes across a new breaker put in that old panel, before the swap gets done.
Maybe an IR shot or temp gun. With the charger running. Breaker pulled out after a couple minutes to check out the stab and clip condition. Light sand and some deox on another stab too. In the name of science..


----------



## RUSKES (6 mo ago)

Almost Retired said:


> how was the home supposed to catch on fire ?
> the wires on the breaker werent even melted
> i have seen this exact same scenario with burned up lugs at least 50 times and nothing else in the box was hurt much less the house
> i have had enough, i am turning you off


----------



## RUSKES (6 mo ago)

stay, do not go
the fun is just starting


----------



## Flashedout (4 mo ago)

So a little reading on a report of how distortion relates to EV charging.. Any non linear loads is going to create distortion on the power quality (PQ) PQ is a measure of the fitness of electrical power provided by a utility to its customers. PQ
is of concern because it manifests as deviations in voltage
magnitude, issues with continuity of service from the utility,
or transient voltages and currents [3]. PQ also encompasses harmonic distortion, DC offset, phase imbalance, and voltage
deviations. Of special interest are harmonic currents since these have the potential to affect the lifetime of magnetic assets such
as distribution transformers and instrument transformers. Along with service modules.
Now when you throw in the chargers cycle rate and demand, on an older panel with possible corrosion you have a point of high resistance. Which will be a fall of potential..thus creating your loss, in heat.. I2R losses,

Harmonic distortion is a deviation of a current or voltage
waveform from a perfect sinusoidal profile. The impacts that harmonic distortion have on distribution assets can be detrimental to the proper operation of power systems. Harmonic
distortion can also affect near-by loads, particularly power
electronics devices and motors. In the case of non-linear loads,
such as EV charge controllers, current distortion occurs due
to the use of power electronics switches to convert power
from AC to DC. Introduction of harmonic currents into the
distribution system can distort the utility supply voltage and
damage electrical distribution equipment, particularly magnetic
components.
In order to help mitigate these adverse affects, the IEEE established Standard 519-1992, with the objective of developing “recommended practices and requirements for harmonic control in electrical power systems” [7]. This standard describes the problems that unmitigated harmonic current distortion can cause within electrical systems.

Take a look at my attach file it can be a little helpful..


----------



## CMP (Oct 30, 2019)

RUSKES said:


> Asking for your help
> This is the crime scene with some evidence found
> The suspect tried to burn the Victim, but did not succeed totally destroying the evidence.
> View attachment 169275
> ...





CMP said:


> Analyze the evidence photos you submitted. What is missing from the evidence?
> How many arc marks do you count?
> Where was the thermal runaway the greatest?
> What materials are there in the breaker to conduct the heat into the thermal element of the breaker?
> How would a AFCI breaker change the final result displayed herein?





joe-nwt said:


> The left contact looks pristine, it's not even discolored. The mark on the right contact is shiny, might be from prying that melted mess out of the panel. Certainly not splatter from "arching".


My take on the evidence photo enlargements from afar is this.
What is missing is the bus contact clip and contact spring that engages the bus stab and also contains the line side contact button.
For the arc mark evidence, I see two, one on each pole. The left pole has a metal transfer arc on the lower portion of the fulcrum lever arm. The right pole has one directly on the contact button. 

The greatest thermal runaway I can see is the melting of the bus stab finger. The stab is reduced in thickness, and it's edges are rounded, where the breaker clip engaged it on both poles. It takes a lot of heat to bring aluminum up to the melting point to erode it away. 
I would also suspect that that the missing contact clips would be in a similar overheated condition, but not as eroded, since they are typically made of plated copper and spring steel and would not melt at the same temperature as aluminum would.

As far as getting the breaker to trip thermally, I don't see that happening realistically or reliably. The only direct contact metal to metal there is, for heat transfer, is the contact button faces. Attached to the load side contact button lever arms are some braided copper to be flexible in order to connect to the stationary metal components internal to the breaker. Not much surface area for thermal conduction.

The bakelite housing has no thermal conductivity to speak of, so it just converts to carbon particles under the heat stress and crumbles apart.

To me it seems that the bus to breaker connection was weak for the load demanded. Due to the material type and oxidation over time. It heated up due to poor conductivity for the continuous load demanded. Once the metal bus clips and reinforcement springs overheat, they loose their temper and become dead soft. Then there is nothing applying any joint pressure and the joint just thermally runs away.

I have had this happen before on a brand new indoor install, where the bus was 150A aluminum, the load was continuous, 2 breakers were 50A multi-pole, Installed directly opposite each other on common stabs, the load was 36A continuous each, across the line started motor load and the two paint booths were wired with #6 AWG.

When the loadcenter and breakers were returned to the wholesaler for warranty replacement, the manufacturer representative said not to install the breakers directly opposite each other on the bus to allow for better heat dissipation. The bus stabs were rated at 100A each stab, but after about 2 weeks the bus was toasted with only
72A draw on the single set of bus stabs. It ran fine for many years afterward with no overheating issues.

If I were doing a job like this, with heavy continuous load, I would insist on a copper bus loadcenter at a minimum, or a bolt on style panelboard, or a line side tap with dedicated disconnect switch rated for the load. Feeding a switch mode power supply puts additional demands on the supply circuit and service, but this failure is entirely possible with just a standard across the line motor load. If the customer balked at the price of doing my way, I would just pass on the job. It's not worth the headache or liability of doing it any other way, especially for your reputation or insurance premiums. Make them pay to do the job right the first time, or pass, it will cost you less that way.

Ruskes, I would suggest to you, that you tone down your rhetoric a bit in order to get along better here. If you have something knowledgeable and useful to contribute, without a demeaning attitude to others, do it. But the way you talk to others is not very nice or helpful. You could end up on everyone's block list or get banned entirely if you keep up your derogatory comments. Learning to use a spellchecker would be a bonus to add to the skill set as well. Your a new member here so try to make it a point to lighten up a bit and be a bit more considerate of other members.


----------



## RUSKES (6 mo ago)

CMP said:


> My take on the evidence photo enlargements from afar is this.
> What is missing is the bus contact clip and contact spring that engages the bus stab and also contains the line side contact button.
> For the arc mark evidence, I see two, one on each pole. The left pole has a metal transfer arc on the lower portion of the fulcrum lever arm. The right pole has one directly on the contact button.
> 
> ...


Thank you for detailed analisis, and thank you for the conclusion you made.

Totally agree with your findings showing arcing and even meltdown. Specially the metal ball drop on the right side caught my attention. Wow, that must have been some energy heat to do that.









*"To me it seems that the bus to breaker connection was weak for the load demanded. Due to the material type and oxidation over time. It heated up due to poor conductivity for the continuous load demanded."*

_I will try not to blow up at the rude comments and attacks. 😎 _


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Almost Retired said:


> how was the home supposed to catch on fire ?
> the wires on the breaker werent even melted
> i have seen this exact same scenario with burned up lugs at least 50 times and nothing else in the box was hurt much less the house
> i have had enough, i am turning you off


I have seen an AC condenser cause a burn out and nothing tripped either. The 200 amp main, the 60 amp AC, and the breakers above the 60 were all melted and power still was going through intermittently. It stunk out the basement. I will look to see if I still have the pictures.


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Flashedout said:


> So a little reading on a report of how distortion relates to EV charging.. Any non linear loads is going to create distortion on the power quality (PQ) PQ is a measure of the fitness of electrical power provided by a utility to its customers. PQ
> is of concern because it manifests as deviations in voltage
> magnitude, issues with continuity of service from the utility,
> or transient voltages and currents [3]. PQ also encompasses harmonic distortion, DC offset, phase imbalance, and voltage
> ...


Very interesting reading but it is mainly focused on three phase systems and level 2 & 3 charging systems. Their study included the high speed DC charging systems. The only mention of single phase was if there are multiple chargers that could cause an imbalance in the feeder. The harmonics was on the neutral in a three phase system. From the study it seems like there are going to be a lot of problems down the road for places that were not specifically designed for the Level 2 & 3 chargers. The Level 3 are 480 volts, 3 phase and could be 100 amps or more. 
Thank you for posting that article. It was a bit over my head so I had to forward it to my brother who is into engineering.


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

It looked like this application was an existing outdoor recessed meter/panel set up. I bet to change it to a 200 amp copper or bolt on buss would be very very expensive.


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## RUSKES (6 mo ago)

kb1jb1 said:


> It looked like this application was an existing outdoor recessed meter/panel set up. I bet to change it to a 200 amp copper or bolt on buss would be very very expensive.


How expensive ? how much $


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## RUSKES (6 mo ago)

Flashedout said:


> So a little reading on a report of how distortion relates to EV charging.. Any non linear loads is going to create distortion on the power quality (PQ) PQ is a measure of the fitness of electrical power provided by a utility to its customers. PQ
> is of concern because it manifests as deviations in voltage
> magnitude, issues with continuity of service from the utility,
> or transient voltages and currents [3]. PQ also encompasses harmonic distortion, DC offset, phase imbalance, and voltage
> ...


Very informative. 
How would a Circuit Breaker be impacted by Harmonics. I understand its impact on motors and transformers, but not CB.


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

RUSKES said:


> Very informative.
> How would a Circuit Breaker be impacted by Harmonics. I understand its impact on motors and transformers, but not CB.


It impacts the neutral on a polyphase system. IDK about the breaker. That is why I am getting confused with this thread. It sort of goes against what I can remember from school. But then I might be recalling my schooling wrong.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Are we going for 500?


----------



## Flashedout (4 mo ago)

RUSKES said:


> Very informative.
> How would a Circuit Breaker be impacted by Harmonics. I understand its impact on motors and transformers, but not CB.


Your right it's not gonna effect the cb itself due to trip curve (thermal portion) measuring true watts.. But since it's my belief there was unusual increased impedance between the stab and slot creating the heat. We also have to add in the fact it's a outside panel so ambient temps (cooling) will be a factor as well....example...If it was a multi- state model must present an impedance that is a function of its charging cycle. For example, as a battery approaches full
charge, the charge controller adjusts the power electronics firing angle to begin “trickle-charging” the battery, thereby shifting to a different charging state. This causes the controller to decrease the charge current in order to not overcharge the battery. As the firing sequence adjusts to start the trickle-
charge state, the relative magnitudes of the harmonics increase,
compared to the magnitude of the fundamental, even though
the RMS current magnitude decreases. These periods of high
harmonic loading are of interest because of the potential negative affects on distribution assets which include inductive, capacitive,resistive all =z
Since the CB only saw 48 A (or so) with a low PF that increased resistance/arcing which was acting as a capacitor in a sort.. where the THD plays a role ..
This isn't including all the cycle rates the charger goes thru


----------



## RUSKES (6 mo ago)

Flashedout said:


> Your right it's not gonna effect the cb itself due to trip curve (thermal portion) measuring true watts.. But since it's my belief there was unusual increased impedance between the stab and slot creating the heat. We also have to add in the fact it's a outside panel so ambient temps (cooling) will be a factor as well....example...If it was a multi- state model must present an impedance that is a function of its charging cycle. For example, as a battery approaches full
> charge, the charge controller adjusts the power electronics firing angle to begin “trickle-charging” the battery, thereby shifting to a different charging state. This causes the controller to decrease the charge current in order to not overcharge the battery. As the firing sequence adjusts to start the trickle-
> charge state, the relative magnitudes of the harmonics increase,
> compared to the magnitude of the fundamental, even though
> ...


You are using too many acronyms for me to understand.
PF
THD

but what you are saying is the Circuit breaker did not have good connection and that is what killed it.

EV's have on board charger controller, that receives the information from the wall plug. The wall plug tells the EV controller what type it is (Max current it offers). The EV controller proceeds with pulling that amount.
However, the CB fails to deliver (due to contact) and the EV notices that and slows down, then again tries to draw max. Those cycles would generate rapid spikes (from 6 amp to 40 amp) of current on the CB contacts. Not really harmonics, but defective circuit.


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

All I know is my ICE would never cause a circuit breaker to melt. There's an acronym for you. ICE.


----------



## Flashedout (4 mo ago)

PF= Power Factor THD= total harmonic distortion.

which can cause a imbalance within the ungrounded conductors created transient that excess impedance will cause heat (losses) where the resistance is present.. Since this was a charger, thermal runway is very likely.. If it was just a resistive load pulling the same current in the same conditions it would most likely survived without meltdown.. thou the triplen harmonics build on 3 phase system.... causing overload on the neutral.. yes but A single phase circuit with non linear loads create current to lead or lag depending on reactance Xc or XL thus creating poor power factor.. with a higher apparent power VA
Just my theory as to why the resistance between the stab and cb seen unwanted arcing/heat in such a short period.. Iam sure if you were to place this on a scope you would see the spikes within the current sine wave..
And canceling on the load it's serving (i.e gates or batteries) rather than returning on a neutral..
I agree 100 % on it being a defective circuit but I also believe it has alot to with the type load that the service equipment was serving..
_*maybe iam over thinking it.. just curious on some insight to my theory..*_


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## RUSKES (6 mo ago)

kb1jb1 said:


> All I know is my ICE would never cause a circuit breaker to melt. There's an acronym for you. ICE.


TLA


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Flashedout said:


> PF= Power Factor THD= total harmonic distortion.
> 
> which can cause a imbalance within the ungrounded conductors created transient that excess impedance will cause heat (losses) where the resistance is present.. Since this was a charger, thermal runway is very likely.. If it was just a resistive load pulling the same current in the same conditions it would most likely survived without meltdown.. thou the triplen harmonics build on 3 phase system.... causing overload on the neutral.. yes but A single phase circuit with non linear loads create current to lead or lag depending on reactance Xc or XL thus creating poor power factor.. with a higher apparent power VA
> Just my theory as to why the resistance between the stab and cb seen unwanted arcing/heat in such a short period.. Iam sure if you were to place this on a scope you would see the spikes within the current sine wave..
> ...



You mean Trendy Stuff right? Yea, I covered that already.


----------



## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

So, why have I seen burnt breakers from resistive heating ? Must be harmonics and THD in those succas too!!


----------



## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

* edit * post #421 in the "absolute useless thread" thread.


----------



## CAUSA (Apr 3, 2013)

460 Delta said:


> You Canadians probably have special “Marretts” with a ground bonding screw.


With a 🦫 *touque *for the Marrett nuts.


----------



## Flashedout (4 mo ago)

emtnut said:


> So, why have I seen burnt breakers from resistive heating ? Must be harmonics and THD in those succas too!!


Well it depends on the TMHOSC which = To Many Heaters On Single Circuit


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Was this touched on? 48 amps × 125% = 60 amps minimum circuit. Now the level 2 chargers charge at a rate of 20 miles per hour. That could imply that the charger could have been pulling a maximum current for 6 or even 8 hours. 
I think I am going to go back with an IR camera to the units I ran a circuit for. Pulling that kind of current on a cheap residential panel is bound to cause problems, especially an old panel.


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## Deeegzz (Apr 5, 2021)

kb1jb1 said:


> It looked like this application was an existing outdoor recessed meter/panel set up. I bet to change it to a 200 amp copper or bolt on buss would be very very expensive.


Indeed
Trenching to the utility service box. 
New service lateral. 
Ouch


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Thought you could help figure out why this charger failed. Harmonics, PF, AL buss?


----------



## RUSKES (6 mo ago)

backstay said:


> View attachment 169296
> 
> Thought you could help figure out why this charger failed. Harmonics, PF, AL buss?


Does @Deeegzz has an alibi ?


----------



## Deeegzz (Apr 5, 2021)

RUSKES said:


> Does @Deeegzz has an alibi ?


Damn. You guys caught me. 

I almost got away with it


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

RUSKES said:


> *And this example is where. and why I blocked you.
> Hope others will join me.*


I'm devastated.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

RUSKES said:


> stay, do not go
> the fun is just starting


Hmmm, Looks like Hack... Smells like Hack... Tastes like Hack... good thing nobody stepped in it!


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

macmikeman said:


> Maybe we should do some product evaluations on our own, start checking the resistance of different brands and catalog numbers for busbar arrangements on common load centers. Make a public list. Then we can check new installations , or even existing ones against a ( I'm struggling with the proper word to use here) common point of reference. I guess this would best be done before purchase, so the employee's of wholesale houses are going to have to get used to us asking them to open the boxes up and take a fluke to them....... Same goes for box stores , we are gonna have to block the aisle for a bit while we destroy the boxing on many stacked load centers till we come across a proper bus arraingement with a good reading. Sorry about the mess I left on the bathroom isle. Maybe you should have moved the electrical away from the bathroom in the first place Home Depot. Ya you.......


Not a bad idea, it can be done with you tubes videos as well, let's all pony of fifty or so each and have that Scottish spark who lives on The Isle Of Man tearing down dollar store electrics narrate it, or David Attenborough.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

joe-nwt said:


> Bravo! Through the meticulous application of circular logic, you have all the bases covered!
> 
> No further investigation required: might as well throw your "I told you so" out right now.
> 
> I'm probably blocked. If someone could be so kind as to quote me?


My pleasure...


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

joe-nwt said:


> Bravo! Through the meticulous application of circular logic, you have all the bases covered!
> 
> No further investigation required: might as well throw your "I told you so" out right now.
> 
> I'm probably blocked. If someone could be so kind as to quote me?


And this is where I blocked HIM! 

Will somebody please quote this entire post so he knows as well?


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

CMP said:


> Joe, thanks for taking the time to summarize that rant, someone needed to. It looks to me like there is a lack of moderation going on here.
> 
> But if your blocked, you missed out on the last gem.
> 
> ...


Clearly the sign of a not well trained electrician but merely an "installer" and diagnosing and troubleshooting is accomplished by replacing random parts and guessing...


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

readydave8 said:


> hey @RUSKES that lawn guy just said something bad about you, good that you got him blocked


Oh man aren't we in rare form?!?!? I swear electricians are some of the best comedic wizea$$es on the planet, and with zero phucks to give to boot!


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

460 Delta said:


> Totally fallacious.
> 
> What happened is the installer used offset box connectors on the conduit, notched a stud with a Ryobi saw to fit it in, and banged out the chunk with a non Estwing hammer.
> 
> ...


I'm pretty sure it's because no permit was pulled and no inspection by the AHJ, and these high-fallootin' type homes have expensive feature packed panels with Ai that automatically ejects the feau-pah and self destruct in that very scenario.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Deeegzz said:


> *I’m so lost.* Who’s Joe.
> fill me in lol


You're one of the lucky ones then.



macmikeman said:


> I don't think Fort Myers Beach exists any more. It's all gone.


Well it serves them right, cry me a river... fools build on sand.
If it looks anything like Rockaways and and Coney Island did after Sandy it's little different from what the Ukraine looks like now. Bright side is there'll be a lotta work soon!



frankendodge said:


> I think Colonel mustard killed Mrs Peacock in the bathroom with a candlestick. Crime solved.
> 
> Maybe you need a 100 afci main deeegz? Pretty sure you can just tie the handles of 2 50s together with some #10.


No he's on the 2020 code and they nixxed that.



Almost Retired said:


> several days ago this was a fairly interesting thread


And now it's 10x better!



RUSKES said:


> stay, do not go
> the fun is just starting


That's the first time I believe you are correct since you began posting here.



RUSKES said:


> Thank you for detailed analisis, and thank you for the conclusion you made.
> 
> Totally agree with your findings showing arcing and even meltdown. Specially the metal ball drop on the right side caught my attention. Wow, that must have been some energy heat to do that.
> View attachment 169287
> ...


And there you ruined it again. NYC's old mechanical cam-driven traffic signal controllers used pure silver contacts and only switched about 30 watts of LEDs on and off thousands of times a day and would do that exact same thing. Solution was to lift that removable contact paddle off the tray and quickly press the silver contacts onto the concrete sidewalk and scrub them shiny and new.

You know troubleshooting isn't about taking pot-shot guesses or agreeing with someone who seems to impress you... It's about observation and hypothesis and testing the theories you develop.



kb1jb1 said:


> It looked like this application was an existing outdoor recessed meter/panel set up. I bet to change it to a 200 amp copper or bolt on buss would be very very expensive.


Doesnt SqD have a coppor bolt on single phase 200 residential model in the original breaker style anymore?



RUSKES said:


> Very informative.
> How would a Circuit Breaker be impacted by Harmonics. I understand its impact on motors and transformers, but not CB.


Wasn't that one of your incorrect guesses before in post # 355 ???



kb1jb1 said:


> It impacts the neutral on a polyphase system. IDK about the breaker. That is why I am getting confused with this thread. It sort of goes against what I can remember from school. But then I might be recalling my schooling wrong.


Well it was bound to happen sooner or later 



kb1jb1 said:


> Are we going for 500?


Don't make me repeat myself...



RUSKES said:


> You are using too many acronyms for me to understand.
> PF
> THD
> 
> ...


Are we recycling all the previous guesses now?



emtnut said:


> So, why have I seen burnt breakers from resistive heating ? Must be harmonics and THD in those succas too!!


Usually an id 10 t error...



emtnut said:


> * edit * post #421 in the "absolute useless thread" thread.





Flashedout said:


> Well it depends on the TMHOSC which = To Many Heaters On Single Circuit


Price we pay for rushing things...



backstay said:


> View attachment 169296
> 
> Thought you could help figure out why this charger failed. Harmonics, PF, AL buss?


That's percussive fallout that happens to EV chargers when the receive a power surge. That's why it's best prqactice to also sell a wjhole house TVSS of good repute whenever installing an EV charger circuit, or anything for that matter just as another profit center. When people MUST or Want to crack open that wallet it's quite easy for them to agree to a bit more for something that's better at protecting everything all at once.


----------



## MikeWhitfield (Aug 1, 2011)

CMP said:


> My take on the evidence photo enlargements from afar is this.
> What is missing is the bus contact clip and contact spring that engages the bus stab and also contains the line side contact button.
> For the arc mark evidence, I see two, one on each pole. The left pole has a metal transfer arc on the lower portion of the fulcrum lever arm. The right pole has one directly on the contact button.
> 
> ...


Excellent analysis, thanks! I suspect that when all is said and done, the takeaway from this thread will be that if one is installing a high amp draw charger, one needs to put in writing the recommendation that the service be at least a 200A copper bus load center, or a 200A bolt-on panel, in good condition, and be willing to walk away if the homeowner is willing to drop $60K or more on an electric vehicle but not a couple grand upgrading his panel to safely handle the fast charger. If it's a high end house panel with a lot of load, might need to be an even higher amperage bus, just to make sure that its thermal capacity is sufficient. Older, smaller panels are especially bad, but really, none of us know what design assumptions were made (such as assuming that no high draw breakers would be mounted opposite on the same bus location) to cut every last nickel out of the design. Load centers are an incredibly cutthroat competitive market and have been for decades. So we all need to protect ourselves in case there is a problem.


----------



## MikeWhitfield (Aug 1, 2011)

Deeegzz said:


> Indeed
> Trenching to the utility service box.
> New service lateral.
> Ouch


But do you really need a new service? My own idea was simply a 200A copper bus load center with the same 125A main breaker (although NOT a branch-mounted main, I hate those) simply to get a more robust bus better capable of handling the thermal hot spot resulting from the 48A continuous draw. Also, IMO ALL load centers anywhere near the coast need to be copper bus, because copper oxide is an excellent conductor whereas aluminum oxide is an excellent insulator. Generally I'm fine with aluminum buses but not outside or otherwise non-humidity-controlled environments, and certainly not in a relatively corrosive environment. 

Thermal runaway is a weird animal - I had a 40A-2P pull-out fused switch used as an air handler disconnect melt down completely, to the point of melting the plastic enclosure and totally disintegrating the switch, without tripping the 40A-2P breaker feeding it OR blowing the thermal fuse OR even damaging the paint or gypboard it's mounted on. Although the incoming wire was completely welded to the lugs, the fuse literally fell apart in my hands, with part of it having become part of the housing but the pristine metal fuse elements literally falling out of the disintegrated housing. And it did it not in winter, when it's handling about 28 amps, but in the very middle of summer when its only load is a 1/4 HP fan. Once thermal runaway begins for whatever reason, it can be incredibly localized; the only real thing we can do is try to minimize the chance of it happening. Since it began with a fresh breaker in five minutes, and you were already aware there's a problem (and if I remember correctly, did attempt to remove any corrosion?), I'm assuming that the combination of bus and breaker caused the problem and also that mechanically removing the oxidation isn't a viable or sufficient solution. Since you're replacing the load center I assume you agree. But to be clear, I'm not proposing increasing the service, which has a very high incremental cost over just replacing the load center with the minimum, but rather replacing it with a stouter load center better able to handle heat and future oxidation, which is a much lower incremental cost. The easiest way to make it more robust (in my opinion anyway) is to increase the bus amperage by oversizing it and changing to a copper bus. If it was me and I'd already agreed to eat the cost of the panel replacement, I'd certainly eat that small incremental cost to make absolutely sure that the problem stays solved. 

I'd also heavily recommend that the home owner purchase a good quality SPD with TV/SS protection as LGLS (I think) recommended, which would help protect the home owner as well as myself. That could also be promoted as protection for the charger and car, which would be true.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

MikeWhitfield said:


> Excellent analysis, thanks! I suspect that when all is said and done, the takeaway from this thread will be that if one is installing a high amp draw charger, one needs to put in writing the recommendation that the service be at least a 200A copper bus load center, or a 200A bolt-on panel, in good condition, and be willing to walk away if the homeowner is willing to drop $60K or more on an electric vehicle but not a couple grand upgrading his panel to safely handle the fast charger. If it's a high end house panel with a lot of load, might need to be an even higher amperage bus, just to make sure that its thermal capacity is sufficient. Older, smaller panels are especially bad, but really, none of us know what design assumptions were made (such as assuming that no high draw breakers would be mounted opposite on the same bus location) to cut every last nickel out of the design. Load centers are an incredibly cutthroat competitive market and have been for decades. So we all need to protect ourselves in case there is a problem.


How about a separate disconnect tapped off the line side of the main panel, closely grouped to feed it. Fused may be even better?


----------



## MikeWhitfield (Aug 1, 2011)

LGLS said:


> How about a separate disconnect tapped off the line side of the main panel, closely grouped to feed it. Fused may be even better?


I think that's actually a good solution, but I'm uncomfortable suggesting it since it violates the U.L. listing on the load center assembly. Bolted is always better, but I try to only do bus taps on older panels which were never listed. If something happens, the only thing the judge or jury hears is the lawyer saying "blah blah blah violating the U.L. listing of the panel" blah blah blah.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

MikeWhitfield said:


> I think that's actually a good solution, but I'm uncomfortable suggesting it since it violates the U.L. listing on the load center assembly. Bolted is always better, but I try to only do bus taps on older panels which were never listed. If something happens, the only thing the judge or jury hears is the lawyer saying "blah blah blah violating the U.L. listing of the panel" blah blah blah.


Poppycock that's rediculious. Don't need a panel to be listed to contain a line side wire tap. If it's that scary put the feeder into a JB and then run 2 feeders back down to the panel and disco, respectively.


----------



## Deeegzz (Apr 5, 2021)

MikeWhitfield said:


> But do you really need a new service? My own idea was simply a 200A copper bus load center with the same 125A main breaker (although NOT a branch-mounted main, I hate those) simply to get a more robust bus better capable of handling the thermal hot spot resulting from the 48A continuous draw. Also, IMO ALL load centers anywhere near the coast need to be copper bus, because copper oxide is an excellent conductor whereas aluminum oxide is an excellent insulator. Generally I'm fine with aluminum buses but not outside or otherwise non-humidity-controlled environments, and certainly not in a relatively corrosive environment.
> 
> Thermal runaway is a weird animal - I had a 40A-2P pull-out fused switch used as an air handler disconnect melt down completely, to the point of melting the plastic enclosure and totally disintegrating the switch, without tripping the 40A-2P breaker feeding it OR blowing the thermal fuse OR even damaging the paint or gypboard it's mounted on. Although the incoming wire was completely welded to the lugs, the fuse literally fell apart in my hands, with part of it having become part of the housing but the pristine metal fuse elements literally falling out of the disintegrated housing. And it did it not in winter, when it's handling about 28 amps, but in the very middle of summer when its only load is a 1/4 HP fan. Once thermal runaway begins for whatever reason, it can be incredibly localized; the only real thing we can do is try to minimize the chance of it happening. Since it began with a fresh breaker in five minutes, and you were already aware there's a problem (and if I remember correctly, did attempt to remove any corrosion?), I'm assuming that the combination of bus and breaker caused the problem and also that mechanically removing the oxidation isn't a viable or sufficient solution. Since you're replacing the load center I assume you agree. But to be clear, I'm not proposing increasing the service, which has a very high incremental cost over just replacing the load center with the minimum, but rather replacing it with a stouter load center better able to handle heat and future oxidation, which is a much lower incremental cost. The easiest way to make it more robust (in my opinion anyway) is to increase the bus amperage by oversizing it and changing to a copper bus. If it was me and I'd already agreed to eat the cost of the panel replacement, I'd certainly eat that small incremental cost to make absolutely sure that the problem stays solved.
> 
> I'd also heavily recommend that the home owner purchase a good quality SPD with TV/SS protection as LGLS (I think) recommended, which would help protect the home owner as well as myself. That could also be promoted as protection for the charger and car, which would be true.


Ahh yes.
Just a quality main panel. Gotcha.


----------



## MikeWhitfield (Aug 1, 2011)

Deeegzz said:


> Ahh yes.
> Just a quality main panel. Gotcha.


Well, when you say it like that I just feel silly. 😁


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

RUSKES said:


> TLA


TLA ? What is that, Trendy Laughable Accessories?


----------



## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

Almost Retired said:


> how was the home supposed to catch on fire ?
> the wires on the breaker werent even melted
> i have seen this exact same scenario with burned up lugs at least 50 times and nothing else in the box was hurt much less the house
> i have had enough, i am turning you off


congrats on #400


----------



## Sberry (Jan 11, 2021)

I have seen this before on these brands of panels, sometimes not even much load and burn up 2 poles. Since its obviously burned ahead of the breaker I am back with some guys on page one that the connection is suspect, if they are listed to go on that buss,,, ok I spose but the "will fit" scares me also. I just had one want to use some old stuff and even though there is no load its a mix and way beyond whats needed and I even splain that, I am going to put in new that all matches etc.


----------



## swimmer (Mar 19, 2011)

An electrician in my area had a similar experience with a breaker feeding a Tesla car charger. 1 or 2 breakers immediately above the car charger breaker tripped for heat. The car charger breaker itself never turned off and damaged the bus bar.


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

I will repeat this once more. Inside of Tesla wall chargers is 200 amp fuses. Dig? Perhaps the code can be altered to allow additional services at one building in order to provide for outrageous loads imposed at off-peak hours so that people can feel good about going green.


----------



## Johnzo (Aug 8, 2018)

I'm not reading 23 pages of arguing, but I will offer another potential cause, based on an odd personal experience I had.

Background info:
I have two meters on my property and I have a fairly large solar array that is tied to my 200A all-in-one pump house main service panel. The solar is virtually net metered to offset the usage on both panels. The pump house breaker only has 2 existing breakers that feed sub panels, a 30A and a 60A. That allowed me to backfeed a 100A solar breaker into it, since the sum of all breakers did not exceed the rating of the main breaker. Twice, the 100A PV breaker melted down. The first time, I just figured it was a bad breaker, so I replaced it with a new one. A month later, it had melted again. When I went to remove the second melted breaker, I heard some sizzling coming from the panel as I was applying pressure to the melted breaker. On further investigation, I noticed visible arcing where the main breaker bolts to the busbar on phase 1. I shut the main off and checked the bolt tightness. It was less than finger tight. I'm not sure if it came from the factory like that or if the previous owner tampered with the bolt, but after I torqued the bolt and replaced the 100A PV breaker again, it has been running fine ever since, for about two years. Good luck in finding the cause af your issue and I hope my experience can help others troubleshoot their own issues by looking where you might not expect the problem to be originating from.


----------



## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

Johnzo said:


> I'm not reading 23 pages of arguing, but I will offer another potential cause, based on an odd personal experience I had.
> 
> Background info:
> I have two meters on my property and I have a fairly large solar array that is tied to my 200A all-in-one pump house main service panel. The solar is virtually net metered to offset the usage on both panels. The pump house breaker only has 2 existing breakers that feed sub panels, a 30A and a 60A. That allowed me to backfeed a 100A solar breaker into it, since the sum of all breakers did not exceed the rating of the main breaker. Twice, the 100A PV breaker melted down. The first time, I just figured it was a bad breaker, so I replaced it with a new one. A month later, it had melted again. When I went to remove the second melted breaker, I heard some sizzling coming from the panel as I was applying pressure to the melted breaker. On further investigation, I noticed visible arcing where the main breaker bolts to the busbar on phase 1. I shut the main off and checked the bolt tightness. It was less than finger tight. I'm not sure if it came from the factory like that or if the previous owner tampered with the bolt, but after I torqued the bolt and replaced the 100A PV breaker again, it has been running fine ever since, for about two years. Good luck in finding the cause af your issue and I hope my experience can help others troubleshoot their own issues by looking where you might not expect the problem to be originating from.


good point !


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Johnzo said:


> I'm not reading 23 pages of arguing, but I will offer another potential cause, based on an odd personal experience I had.
> 
> Background info:
> I have two meters on my property and I have a fairly large solar array that is tied to my 200A all-in-one pump house main service panel. The solar is virtually net metered to offset the usage on both panels. The pump house breaker only has 2 existing breakers that feed sub panels, a 30A and a 60A. That allowed me to backfeed a 100A solar breaker into it, since the sum of all breakers did not exceed the rating of the main breaker. Twice, the 100A PV breaker melted down. The first time, I just figured it was a bad breaker, so I replaced it with a new one. A month later, it had melted again. When I went to remove the second melted breaker, I heard some sizzling coming from the panel as I was applying pressure to the melted breaker. On further investigation, I noticed visible arcing where the main breaker bolts to the busbar on phase 1. I shut the main off and checked the bolt tightness. It was less than finger tight. I'm not sure if it came from the factory like that or if the previous owner tampered with the bolt, but after I torqued the bolt and replaced the 100A PV breaker again, it has been running fine ever since, for about two years. Good luck in finding the cause af your issue and I hope my experience can help others troubleshoot their own issues by looking where you might not expect the problem to be originating from.



At this forum, we are only allowed to discuss single phase harmonic distortion issues on circuits that don't even have neutrals. Stick to the plan.


----------



## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

macmikeman said:


> At this forum, we are only allowed to discuss single phase harmonic distortion issues on circuits that don't even have neutrals. Stick to the plan.


i have a serious question for you mac ...
do you believe that harmonics can be found on single phase with a neutral as well as 2 or more phases and no neutral?


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Almost Retired said:


> i have a serious question for you mac ...
> do you believe that harmonics can be found on single phase with a neutral as well as 2 or more phases and no neutral?


I really don't dig into it all that much, just read (past tense) a lot back when they were suddenly pushing it as the big bad bear that broke into the cottage. That turned out not completely, but for the most part , a big scam. And since that time, just about any sort of not easily discovered problem with electricity gets blamed on harmonics distortion. The thing is , Johnzo's post # 450 is all too common and simple . I poke fun frequently , all the way to the 13th harmonic.


----------



## RUSKES (6 mo ago)

Johnzo said:


> I'm not reading 23 pages of arguing, but I will offer another potential cause, based on an odd personal experience I had.
> 
> Background info:
> I have two meters on my property and I have a fairly large solar array that is tied to my 200A all-in-one pump house main service panel. The solar is virtually net metered to offset the usage on both panels. The pump house breaker only has 2 existing breakers that feed sub panels, a 30A and a 60A. That allowed me to backfeed a 100A solar breaker into it, since the sum of all breakers did not exceed the rating of the main breaker. Twice, the 100A PV breaker melted down. The first time, I just figured it was a bad breaker, so I replaced it with a new one. A month later, it had melted again. When I went to remove the second melted breaker, I heard some sizzling coming from the panel as I was applying pressure to the melted breaker. On further investigation, I noticed visible arcing where the main breaker bolts to the busbar on phase 1. I shut the main off and checked the bolt tightness. It was less than finger tight. I'm not sure if it came from the factory like that or if the previous owner tampered with the bolt, but after I torqued the bolt and replaced the 100A PV breaker again, it has been running fine ever since, for about two years. Good luck in finding the cause af your issue and I hope my experience can help others troubleshoot their own issues by looking where you might not expect the problem to be originating from.


Clearly the Harmonics at play


----------



## MikeWhitfield (Aug 1, 2011)

Johnzo said:


> I'm not reading 23 pages of arguing, but I will offer another potential cause, based on an odd personal experience I had.
> 
> Background info:
> I have two meters on my property and I have a fairly large solar array that is tied to my 200A all-in-one pump house main service panel. The solar is virtually net metered to offset the usage on both panels. The pump house breaker only has 2 existing breakers that feed sub panels, a 30A and a 60A. That allowed me to backfeed a 100A solar breaker into it, since the sum of all breakers did not exceed the rating of the main breaker. Twice, the 100A PV breaker melted down. The first time, I just figured it was a bad breaker, so I replaced it with a new one. A month later, it had melted again. When I went to remove the second melted breaker, I heard some sizzling coming from the panel as I was applying pressure to the melted breaker. On further investigation, I noticed visible arcing where the main breaker bolts to the busbar on phase 1. I shut the main off and checked the bolt tightness. It was less than finger tight. I'm not sure if it came from the factory like that or if the previous owner tampered with the bolt, but after I torqued the bolt and replaced the 100A PV breaker again, it has been running fine ever since, for about two years. Good luck in finding the cause af your issue and I hope my experience can help others troubleshoot their own issues by looking where you might not expect the problem to be originating from.


Interesting, but is it applicable? In your applicable the PV array is forcing; that power is what was causing the resistance at the main as the PV array controller produces its rated power as long as it senses mains power, if I correctly understand its operation. Do you know if the PV array controller adjusts output voltage to control total power and/or match its expected mains voltage? Or am I missing why the PV breaker would melt down? 

I could easily see the main in Deeegzz's panel also not having a good connection but in that case, wouldn't the heat be at the main? And I think the Wall Box selects for & controls amperage rather than power as that is the unit shown on the selector, otherwise his meter (which we're all assuming is a good quality true RMS meter) would have shown the higher current. Again, unless I'm missing something fundamental - which your post makes believe could be the case.

Can't help thinking this is a phenomenon that I need to understand but is going straight past me. And if that's the case, Deeegzz replacing the panel may not solve his problem - unless it's somehow like yours and resistance at the main (which is an old double stab branch main) was similarly causing the melting breaker using some phenomenon that I don't understand.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

This was probably gonna be a maybe twenty five- thirty post thread. Then Backstay came along and mentioned harmonics. Don't be hard on him, he's a good ole boy.


----------



## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

macmikeman said:


> I really don't dig into it all that much, just read (past tense) a lot back when they were suddenly pushing it as the big bad bear that broke into the cottage. That turned out not completely, but for the most part , a big scam. And since that time, just about any sort of not easily discovered problem with electricity gets blamed on harmonics distortion. The thing is , Johnzo's post # 450 is all too common and simple . I poke fun frequently , all the way to the 13th harmonic.


in _my_ understanding of the past alarms being sent out
they were large and of consequence, because they had just recently began to make switching power supplies and did not know or care how dirty they were
as well as a lot more people were getting home computers; and offices in particular were loaded with computers, printers, faxers, etc.
it some places it got to the point where it mattered and needed to be addressed
in modern times everybody is aware (or should be) and power supplies are normally better designed and therefor do not create nearly as much harmonic current as they used to

so generally speaking i agree with you that harmonics in general are not nearly the deal they used to be

but they still exist and all it takes is for one defective power supply to be dirtier than usual and voila, you have appreciable harmonics again


----------



## RUSKES (6 mo ago)

Based on new evidance we are not closer to solving the harmonics mystery.

Unless we look at what is common between EV car charging and Solar panels.

They both convert the regular sinusoidal current, just in opposite direction.

EV car AC to DC

Solar DC to AC


----------



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

macmikeman said:


> This was probably gonna be a maybe twenty five- thirty post thread. Then Backstay came along and mentioned harmonics. Don't be hard on him, he's a good ole boy.


Don’t forget I also brought up power factor too! 😎


----------



## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

MikeWhitfield said:


> Interesting, but is it applicable? In your applicable the PV array is forcing; that power is what was causing the resistance at the main as the PV array controller produces its rated power as long as it senses mains power, if I correctly understand its operation. Do you know if the PV array controller adjusts output voltage to control total power and/or match its expected mains voltage? Or am I missing why the PV breaker would melt down?
> 
> I could easily see the main in Deeegzz's panel also not having a good connection but in that case, wouldn't the heat be at the main? And I think the Wall Box selects for & controls amperage rather than power as that is the unit shown on the selector, otherwise his meter (which we're all assuming is a good quality true RMS meter) would have shown the higher current. Again, unless I'm missing something fundamental - which your post makes believe could be the case.
> 
> Can't help thinking this is a phenomenon that I need to understand but is going straight past me. And if that's the case, Deeegzz replacing the panel may not solve his problem - unless it's somehow like yours and resistance at the main (which is an old double stab branch main) was similarly causing the melting breaker using some phenomenon that I don't understand.


i think his point was the loose connection that he accidentally found
the same system and a new breaker worked fine after he fixed the connection

in other words he was implying that the old panel may have had _other issues that have not been found_ and they are making the deal worse
at least that is the way i read it .....


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

backstay said:


> Don’t forget I also brought up power factor too! 😎


There is a lady up my street who swears by all that is mighty her electric bill dropped to near zero when this guy hooked her up with a power filter at her meter.............


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

RUSKES said:


> Based on new evidance we are not closer to solving the harmonics mystery.
> 
> Unless we look at what is common between EV car charging and Solar panels.
> 
> ...



I think you are on to something. Confusion generating heat. Circuit breakers are not currently (no pun intended) set to interrupt confusion. Tesla would probably shake your hand for discovering this fifth law of gravity.


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## MikeWhitfield (Aug 1, 2011)

This morning I thought I probably had the correct read on this issue but Swimmer's and Johnzo's posts are honestly freaking me out. Most people here are no doubt familiar with the skin effect where in AC current, most of the current travels on the outside of the conductor rather than being uniformly distributed as with DC current, the actual depth distribution being a function inversely proportional to the square of the frequency and directly proportional to the material's constant (whose name I've long since forgotten.) Many are also probably aware that there are experimental data confirming that higher current drives this to a more extreme value, so that rather than being a simple factor of constant over frequency squared, the depth distribution of current is also (though more weakly) proportional to current amplitude. We also know that even those modern devices using SCRs to control current flow are still using switching power supplies to drop the voltage. And we know that this has the effect of distorting the incoming power to look more like a high frequency sine wave. I'd considered and dismissed all that - but I was considering the effect on real power inherent in increasing frequency. 

What if this truly is a skin effect caused by the high frequency switching harmonics driving the current concentration on the exterior of the bus - where the stabs connect - to higher densities than the bus is designed to handle? That possibility frankly scares the crap out of me. I have a LOT of designs out there which include EV chargers and now I'm wondering if any of them are truly safe.


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Macmikeman, why is it you don't get into the PV or car charger business in a big way?

Macmikeman answers: Well, I had no " skin " in the game..........


----------



## MikeWhitfield (Aug 1, 2011)

Almost Retired said:


> i think his point was the loose connection that he accidentally found
> the same system and a new breaker worked fine after he fixed the connection
> 
> in other words he was implying that the old panel may have had _other issues that have not been found_ and they are making the deal worse
> at least that is the way i read it .....


And that's a good point, but I want to understand WHY and HOW these other issues are making things worse and frankly, I feel like I'm moving farther away from enlightenment. 

It's like that time I punched the reiki instructor and all my enlightenment fled. (Well, that's what he said anyway.)


----------



## Johnzo (Aug 8, 2018)

MikeWhitfield said:


> Interesting, but is it applicable? In your applicable the PV array is forcing; that power is what was causing the resistance at the main as the PV array controller produces its rated power as long as it senses mains power, if I correctly understand its operation. Do you know if the PV array controller adjusts output voltage to control total power and/or match its expected mains voltage? Or am I missing why the PV breaker would melt down?


The PV inverters look for grid voltage to be within I think 10% of 240V in order for them to produce power. On many inverters, it's adjustable. In my scenario, there was a good voltage reading, albiet from a loose connection. The inverters saw stable grid power so the produced power. Now, why the heating occured at the breaker and not at the main to busbar connection is a mystery to me. That's where I would have expected to see the heating. Maybe it was getting hot there, but the materials had a higher tolerance to heat than the material that the breaker case is made of, and thus the melting occured there. I'm no electrical engineer, so all this talk about this squared with that and the popular "harmonics" goes right over my head. I learned electrical the old fashioned way of on the job training with my dad since the age of 5, starting with installing plug plates. (I'm 4th generation electrician) The only book training I ever had was an apprentice training class through the independant electrical contractors association when I was 16, where my dad's uncle was the instructor.


----------



## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

Johnzo said:


> On further investigation, I noticed visible arcing where the main breaker bolts to the busbar on phase 1. I shut the main off and checked the bolt tightness. It was less than finger tight. *I'm not sure if it came from the factory like that* or if the previous owner tampered with the bolt,


I had a similar occurrence with a main breaker connection being loose. Square D 200A 3Ph. Bus connections were pretty pitted at the breaker end, had to rob main breaker and bus links from a new panel to fix.

I know it was from the factory as I installed it a few years prior. I started checking factory connection since.


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## MikeWhitfield (Aug 1, 2011)

joe-nwt said:


> I had a similar occurrence with a main breaker connection being loose. Square D 200A 3Ph. Bus connections were pretty pitted at the breaker end, had to rob main breaker and bus links from a new panel to fix.
> 
> I know it was from the factory as I installed it a few years prior. I started checking factory connection since.


To paraphrase Yellowbeard, never trust a factory or a government.


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## RUSKES (6 mo ago)

Until someone use a oscilloscope and observe, the harmonics will remain a Myth


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

joe-nwt said:


> I had a similar occurrence with a main breaker connection being loose. Square D 200A 3Ph. Bus connections were pretty pitted at the breaker end, had to rob main breaker and bus links from a new panel to fix.
> 
> I know it was from the factory as I installed it a few years prior. I started checking factory connection since.


there was an alert posted here from schnieder about factory connections not tight or something similar in panels made during covid times

do you think it was happening before and they just blamed it on covid ?


----------



## RUSKES (6 mo ago)

Almost Retired said:


> there was an alert posted here from schnieder about factory connections not tight or something similar in panels made during covid times
> 
> do you think it was happening before and they just blamed it on covid ?


Just wait till they discover it is the Global Warming that does that.
From the "I identify as" generation.


----------



## Flashedout (4 mo ago)

MikeWhitfield said:


> This morning I thought I probably had the correct read on this issue but Swimmer's and Johnzo's posts are honestly freaking me out. Most people here are no doubt familiar with the skin effect where in AC current, most of the current travels on the outside of the conductor rather than being uniformly distributed as with DC current, the actual depth distribution being a function inversely proportional to the square of the frequency and directly proportional to the material's constant (whose name I've long since forgotten.) Many are also probably aware that there are experimental data confirming that higher current drives this to a more extreme value, so that rather than being a simple factor of constant over frequency squared, the depth distribution of current is also (though more weakly) proportional to current amplitude. We also know that even those modern devices using SCRs to control current flow are still using switching power supplies to drop the voltage. And we know that this has the effect of distorting the incoming power to look more like a high frequency sine wave. I'd considered and dismissed all that - but I was considering the effect on real power inherent in increasing frequency.
> 
> What if this truly is a skin effect caused by the high frequency switching harmonics driving the current concentration on the exterior of the bus - where the stabs connect - to higher densities than the bus is designed to handle? That possibility frankly scares the crap out of me. I have a LOT of designs out there which include EV chargers and now I'm wondering if any of them are truly safe.


That's a great way to put it for all the non harmonic believers.. I posted that paper on harmonics because due to the SCRs switching it will cause distortion and when. You have distortion across a series applied resistance you will have energy loss (In heat) I2R.. for those who don't believe In harmonic on a load like this maybe should invest in a data analysis meter..Some may be surprised the electrical boogie man is real... 😁


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

The only thing I have to add to this conversation is," come on 500.".


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## RUSKES (6 mo ago)

Harmonics are still sinusoidal form just offset to the original
However a high power rapid switching powers (like EV Rectifiers) are high current spikes, too short for CB to react.


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## MikeWhitfield (Aug 1, 2011)

RUSKES said:


> Harmonics are still sinusoidal form just offset to the original
> However a high power rapid switching powers (like EV Rectifiers) are high current spikes, too short for CB to react.


But Deeegzz measured 48 amps, so a 60A breaker shouldn't react - much less begin melting in five minutes.


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## RUSKES (6 mo ago)

MikeWhitfield said:


> But Deeegzz measured 48 amps, so a 60A breaker shouldn't react - much less begin melting in five minutes.


It takes CB some 5 seconds of continuous over current to react.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

MikeWhitfield said:


> But Deeegzz measured 48 amps, so a 60A breaker shouldn't react - much less begin melting in five minutes.





RUSKES said:


> It takes CB some 5 seconds of continuous over current to react.


How many seconds of underload should it take to melt?


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## MikeWhitfield (Aug 1, 2011)

Flashedout said:


> That's a great way to put it for all the non harmonic believers.. I posted that paper on harmonics because due to the SCRs switching it will cause distortion and when. You have distortion across a series applied resistance you will have energy loss (In heat) I2R.. for those who don't believe In harmonic on a load like this maybe should invest in a data analysis meter..Some may be surprised the electrical boogie man is real... 😁


Your paper was great, thanks. But while I'm passably familiar with most of the effects, I can work around those. For example, high frequency switching power supplies can overload conductors due to the skin effect, but I can oversize conductors to fight that. (Downstream of the high frequency switching power supply and if necessary, upstream - but I'm still not seeing a definite reason for that.) Other things like transformers and motors can be somewhat protected with good quality harmonics and transient filters. But can these effects be so severe that they can destroy panels and breakers upstream of the switching power supply device? That I did not expect, and if this turns out to be the case here, I not only don't understand the principle/mechanism but I have limited ways to fight back. I can oversize panel busses and breaker frame sizes to a degree, especially for 100A to 150A services, but I can hardly specify a 400A bus panel and 200A frame/60A trip breaker for every 200A house panel with a 60A-2P charger circuit. Developers will raise hell and ultimately just go elsewhere for their designs. Same if not worse for the majority here who are electricians; it's great to know that there's a problem, but it's difficult to incorporate that into your work because there'll be legions of less informed contractors underbidding you. 

Further, I'm not really sure that I need to do anything (which is good since I don't have MATLAB and haven't used it for exactly forty years.) The authors show only 6% maximum total demand distortion even when 100% of the load is from EV chargers; seems pretty obvious that 6% TDD shouldn't be enough to damage anything. Different story when they are feeding Level 3 chargers or several Level 2 chargers on a three phase circuit, which most of us would suspect anyway due to the triplens, but if Deeegzz' issue is caused by harmonics or distortion then there's a huge component that's sailing way over my head.


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## MikeWhitfield (Aug 1, 2011)

kb1jb1 said:


> The only thing I have to add to this conversation is," come on 500.".


I dunno, the longer this thread goes on the dumber I'm feeling. 😁


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

Almost Retired said:


> there was an alert posted here from schnieder about factory connections not tight or something similar in panels made during covid times
> 
> do you think it was happening before and they just blamed it on covid ?


I started that thread.









QO panel recall coming down the pipe


Panels are being pulled off the shelves at the wholesaler. Looks like it might be huge. That's all I know so far.




www.electriciantalk.com





I don't think it's the same issue. I haven't found any more loose factory connections since, but I still check.


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

RUSKES said:


> Until someone use a oscilloscope and observe, the harmonics will remain a Myth


Well golly, if only the Mfr would spec the breaker size so we don't all have to go out and buy an O-scope to size the circuit .


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

emtnut said:


> Well golly, if only the Mfr would spec the breaker size so we don't all have to go out and buy an O-scope to size the circuit .


It’s a conspiracy, the charger manufacturer is also the owner of the O-scope manufacturers.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

460 Delta said:


> It’s a conspiracy, the charger manufacturer is also the owner of the O-scope manufacturers.


How long will it be until the manufacturers get together and purchase a code regulation requiring the use of a scope on every circuit. 

Don't laugh, it's no more stupid than requiring us to use a torque wrench on device screws.........


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Don't they have an iPhone app for that?


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

macmikeman said:


> Don't they have an iPhone app for that?


They do ! But you have to buy it from the Mfr ... $299.

You need one from each mfr for each breaker.


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## RUSKES (6 mo ago)

splatz said:


> How many seconds of underload should it take to melt?


4.7 minutes till total melt down
The heating starts at 4ms pulses with a duration of 2 ms each


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

RUSKES said:


> 4.7 minutes till melting point


12 more to 500


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## RUSKES (6 mo ago)

readydave8 said:


> 12 more to 500


working on it


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

It was raining today. 490


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

500 posts for something that appears to be a rare occurrence? Ib mean, come on. If it was anything other than a bad bus stab connection you would hear about it ever day. 

Are you guys bored?


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## RUSKES (6 mo ago)

Solar Flare make the Breakers melt


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Favorite Clint Eastwood movie.......


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Two mules for sister Sarah


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

So we need more posts........


----------



## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

Like this one..........


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

On the other hand , Good , Bad, Ugly was up there...


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

I gotta go get cleaned up for dinner now. See Ya'll later.


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## Deeegzz (Apr 5, 2021)

macmikeman said:


> I gotta go get cleaned up for dinner now. See Ya'll later.


What are you having for dinner?


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## RUSKES (6 mo ago)

*500*


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

RUSKES said:


> 500


🤩🤑💥💥💥🌟🌟🌟🌟🍔🥓


----------



## ohm it hertz (Dec 2, 2020)

macmikeman said:


> Macmikeman, why is it you don't get into the PV or car charger business in a big way?
> 
> Macmikeman answers: Well, I had no " skin " in the game..........


Listen,

I tell the bad jokes around here.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Congrats RUSKES. 
Do we really want to try for 600?


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## RUSKES (6 mo ago)

How to avoid Melting Breakers ?

Go to a gas station ...


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## Flashedout (4 mo ago)

RUSKES said:


> How to avoid Melting Breakers ?
> 
> Go to a gas station ...
> 
> View attachment 169405


At those prices it's cheaper to melt down your breakers every week 🤣


----------



## MikeWhitfield (Aug 1, 2011)

micromind said:


> How long will it be until the manufacturers get together and purchase a code regulation requiring the use of a scope on every circuit.
> 
> Don't laugh, it's no more stupid than requiring us to use a torque wrench on device screws.........


Hey, in the seventies when I worked in my father's auto parts store we once got a mandatory display of advanced hand tools which included several different torque wrenches and a freakin' LCD display ballpeen hammer that would tell you how hard you'd just hit something - as though there was some sort of hammerocity table that told you how many joules or foot-pounds of impact to hit particular things. Or some way to reliably predict or reproduce that exact blow. Thankfully we never got one (apparently seventies technology struggled with the digital hammer) because it was embarrassing enough just having the outline and description on the display board. The interest was entirely for making fun of it and zero for maybe buying one. Didn't help that it cost a week's salary either. There were other tools we never or rarely received either, had to buy and display the board but at least a third of it was empty at any given time. 

Never underestimate the financial value of stupid to those in a position to mandate stupid.


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

MikeWhitfield said:


> Hey, in the seventies when I worked in my father's auto parts store we once got a mandatory display of advanced hand tools which included several different torque wrenches and a freakin' LCD display ballpeen hammer that would tell you how hard you'd just hit something - as though there was some sort of hammerocity table that told you how many joules or foot-pounds of impact to hit particular things. Or some way to reliably predict or reproduce that exact blow. Thankfully we never got one (apparently seventies technology struggled with the digital hammer) because it was embarrassing enough just having the outline and description on the display board. The interest was entirely for making fun of it and zero for maybe buying one. Didn't help that it cost a week's salary either. There were other tools we never or rarely received either, had to buy and display the board but at least a third of it was empty at any given time.
> 
> Never underestimate the financial value of stupid to those in a position to mandate stupid.


That must have been one trendy hammer.


----------



## MikeWhitfield (Aug 1, 2011)

joe-nwt said:


> 500 posts for something that appears to be a rare occurrence? Ib mean, come on. If it was anything other than a bad bus stab connection you would hear about it ever day.
> 
> Are you guys bored?


I really, really hope that's all it is. Seems like the stories are getting more common though. Even if it's just EV chargers being a lot more susceptible to bad bus connections (nothing I can think of runs continuous 80% loads for five or six or eight hours) it's still something of which we should all be aware, as it's an issue with panels that otherwise don't have any issues. Maybe new builds all need to be bolt-on panels to handle the EV chargers we're continuously told that we'll all have any minute now.


----------



## MikeWhitfield (Aug 1, 2011)

kb1jb1 said:


> That must have been one trendy hammer.


Probably. We never saw one. IIRC the warehouse never even had one. One thing's for sure, 1970s southeastern Tennessee was not the time and place to sell computerized hammers.


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

MikeWhitfield said:


> I really, really hope that's all it is. Seems like the stories are getting more common though. Even if it's just EV chargers being a lot more susceptible to bad bus connections (nothing I can think of runs continuous 80% loads for five or six or eight hours) it's still something of which we should all be aware, as it's an issue with panels that otherwise don't have any issues. Maybe new builds all need to be bolt-on panels to handle the EV chargers we're continuously told that we'll all have any minute now.


That is very much my concern also. Who usually buys these EVs with the fast chargers? People with money. What do people with money do in the summer time heat? Set their thermostat at 70. Now you have probably a full 200 amp, 40 circuit panel with both the AC and EV running non stop for a long period of time. Heat is the enemy with electrical stuff.


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## MikeWhitfield (Aug 1, 2011)

kb1jb1 said:


> That is very much my concern also. Who usually buys these EVs with the fast chargers? People with money. What do people with money do in the summer time heat? Set their thermostat at 70. Now you have probably a full 200 amp, 40 circuit panel with both the AC and EV running non stop for a long period of time. Heat is the enemy with electrical stuff.


Yep, and they're also the ones who will sue your ass in a heartbeat. We were made aware of a potential lawsuit from a Florida condo owner over mold that thankfully died in discovery (not our job but one of the big bosses has a condo in the same development) when the lady revealed that she leaves her windows open all day. Thankfully her lawyer decided against proceeding with a legal case because the A/C system she wasn't using didn't somehow prevent mold in the 90+ degree/90% humidity air she lets in.


----------



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

MikeWhitfield said:


> I really, really hope that's all it is. Seems like the stories are getting more common though. Even if it's just EV chargers being a lot more susceptible to bad bus connections (nothing I can think of runs continuous 80% loads for five or six or eight hours) it's still something of which we should all be aware, as it's an issue with panels that otherwise don't have any issues. Maybe new builds all need to be bolt-on panels to handle the EV chargers we're continuously told that we'll all have any minute now.


The electric storage heaters run at full continuous load for 6-8 hours. They are resistant elements. They are 10,000 watt on each breaker. (10,000/240=41.66 amps) and there are 4 circuits coming out of a 200 amp service. I have not seen any problems with breakers in more than 20 years. They are never installed on used equipment either.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Hey I made a small fortune curing harmonics with new "superneutrals" and sold them on isolated grounds everywhere for good measure.


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## MikeWhitfield (Aug 1, 2011)

backstay said:


> The electric storage heaters run at full continuous load for 6-8 hours. They are resistant elements. They are 10,000 watt on each breaker. (10,000/240=41.66 amps) and there are 4 circuits coming out of a 200 amp service. I have not seen any problems with breakers in more than 20 years. They are never installed on used equipment either.


Surprised that there aren't problems as that's over the continuous load rating of a 200A single phase panel.


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