# Does the power company have any power?



## egruhadfio (Jul 21, 2014)

I recently installed a service upgrade, I went through all the proper channels with the town and power company. I applied to the power company specifying that it was a service upgrade and nothing was being moved or relocated, they approved the work and never said anything about changing the heights of anything. In my opinion, the heights of the service hook and weatherhead are already within their specs.

Now that the work is completed and it passed the city inspection, the power company (PSE&G) told the customer that the service hook point of attachment and weatherhead need to be raised 2 feet because of their proximity to the porch roof. I checked the book again and it only says that the overhead line has to be 3' above a roof when it passes over it, not when it's next to it.

So my question is what power do they have to make us move this? Re-doing this work is a considerable expense and I'd rather not eat it.

I have been told by other contractors that they just ignore this type of thing because the power company can't do anything about it, but I am not looking for a war either.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

I've informed many a customer the poco has _all_ the power, and _they_ don't egruhadfio

~CS~


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

The power company has every right to refuse connection to any service for any reason, period. (My former POCO once refused a connection because the neutral was not identified white to the specified length...)

Your best bet is to show all the proper documentation from their service planning/approval department to back up your claim that they approved the service as you submitted it. 

Be aware though that you need to carefully review the application for the service upgrade, you may have missed a clause which would require you to bring the new service up to current requirements, including height of the POA. 

Finally, no matter what, you definitely do NOT want to get on the POCO's "bad side" by arguing over something you missed (or should have "known about.") They can and will make your life a living hell on any future service upgrades.


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## egruhadfio (Jul 21, 2014)

mxslick said:


> The power company has every right to refuse connection to any service for any reason, period.


I thought the PoCo had all kinds of laws/regulations stopping them from pulling power to a house? 

Pulling power can cause the occupants to freeze or emergency equipment like an oxygen machine to stop working. 

We're not talking about a dangerous situation, the new service weather head is in the exact position as the old one and the point of attachment never changed.


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## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

> Pulling power can cause the occupants to freeze or emergency equipment like an oxygen machine to stop working.


If that is the case the seal has a medical symbol on it. You don't see them often. Even if someone has a medical need they probably don't know about telling the power company about it. It is supposed to get them reconnected faster in an emergency also.


PSE&G is more strict than JCP&L which I have in my area. How well did you make the connection to the drop? If it is real good I would just let it go and see what happens. Maybe they will forget about it. 

Does PSE&G come back after it passes and put there own crimps on the drop still? My old boss would use romex connectors for the slpice because they would cut off the bugs and throw them out as soon as it was inspected.


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## egruhadfio (Jul 21, 2014)

cabletie said:


> If that is the case the seal has a medical symbol on it. You don't see them often. Even if someone has a medical need they probably don't know about telling the power company about it. It is supposed to get them reconnected faster in an emergency also.
> 
> 
> PSE&G is more strict than JCP&L which I have in my area. How well did you make the connection to the drop? If it is real good I would just let it go and see what happens. Maybe they will forget about it.
> ...


Yes, they come back and either resplice their overhead line to the service conductors or sometimes they install a completely new overhead line. 

That's what happened, the wiring inspector came by to check it out before ordering the respice or new line.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

pics or it didn't happen. 



> 2. Where a support must be erected to provide sufficient height for the point of attachment of the service drop, it shall be attached to the building and have adequate strength to withstand the pull of the service drop *and shall be subject to approval by PSE&G.* At locations where there are no buildings or structures, service may be provided to an approved free standing pole or timber supplied, installed and maintained by the customer. This pole should be fully treated pine, cedar, or equivalent wood, set 6 feet deep and with a cross section at the ground line of approximately 64 square inches (9 inches in diameter). Where, in the opinion of PSE&G, a terminal pole is required to attach the service run, PSE&G reserves the right to install such a pole at the customer's expense. This pole will remain the
> property of PSE&G.3. *The service head and service run shall be out of reach from porches, windows, doors and fire escapes and shall be clear of awnings, fire escapes, building projections and other obstructions* as required by the National Electrical Code. If the size of the service entrance conductors is No. 1 AWG or smaller, the conductors shall extend 2 feet out of the service hea


page 4-3
http://www.pseg.com/business/builders/new_service/before/pdf/RequirementsElecSvc2005.pdf


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## egruhadfio (Jul 21, 2014)

wildleg said:


> pics or it didn't happen.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I got PSE&G's approval 2 weeks after I submitted the application to them specifying that there were no changes or relocations to the meter equipment, riser, or POA.

As for the service head and service run, it is clear of all of those things, just like it has been for the last 65 years.

Finally, as the last part of the section that you highlighted says, it is code compliant and I passed the inspection from the city.


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## Rochsolid (Aug 9, 2012)

Imo you will not win this battle, your going to have to eat it and move it

Sent from my SGH-I337M using electriciantalk.com mobile app


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

egruhadfio said:


> I thought the PoCo had all kinds of laws/regulations stopping them from pulling power to a house?
> 
> Pulling power can cause the occupants to freeze or emergency equipment like an oxygen machine to stop working.
> 
> *We're not talking about a dangerous situation,* the new service weather head is in the exact position as the old one and the point of attachment never changed.


Neither was this:


mxslick said:


> (My former POCO once refused a connection because the neutral was not identified white to the specified length...)


but it didn't matter. I had to add a lousy 6" of white tape before they would reconnect. 



egruhadfio said:


> Yes, they come back and either resplice their overhead line to the service conductors or sometimes they install a completely new overhead line.
> 
> *That's what happened, the wiring inspector came by to check it out before ordering the respice or new line.*


THAT would have been the time to show your documentation backing up your claim that they approved the new service with the same riser and POA. 



egruhadfio said:


> I got PSE&G's approval 2 weeks after I submitted the application to them specifying that there were no changes or relocations to the meter equipment, riser, or POA.
> 
> As for the service head and service run, it is clear of all of those things, just like it has been for the last 65 years.
> 
> *Finally, as the last part of the section that you highlighted says, it is code compliant and I passed the inspection from the city.*


THe POCO's rules as far as service drops, etc. overrule the NEC, and can be either less restrictive (as in conductor sizing for ampacity) or more restrictive (as in clearances from objects, riser sizes/heights. and POA).

Arguing that it meets NEC will get you absolutely nowhere. 



Rochsolid said:


> Imo _*you will not win this battle, your going to have to eat it and move it*_
> 
> Sent from my SGH-I337M using electriciantalk.com mobile app


What he said. 

You ONLY hope will be to appeal the POCO wire inspector's call, but be prepared to lose. 

And as for the "considerable expense" of re-doing this, unless there is something about the service we don't know I see only a few hundred dollars in materials for new riser conduit and conductors, and maybe an hour or so of work. 

A small loss compared to being put in the very bad position of explaining to the customer that you screwed up and they can't get power.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

I redid a thru the roof mast bout 6 months or so ago cause the poco engineering guy who never got up on the roof to actually measure it bonked me for a 1-1/4'' too low, supposed to be a full 30'' sticking out of the roof. They got the power.....


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## egruhadfio (Jul 21, 2014)

> THAT would have been the time to show your documentation backing up your claim that they approved the new service with the same riser and POA.


The wiring inspector comes whenever he wants, there are no appointments. Sometimes they come a year or two later. Ask people in NJ who work in PSE&G's area.



> A small loss compared to being put in the very bad position of explaining to the customer that you screwed up and they can't get power.


 A small loss? I'm not sure what type of margins your company has but $400-500 is far from "a small loss".

Further, the point is that I didn't screw up, the installation is to PoCo specs. As I already explained, I applied for this upgrade with the riser and POA remaining in the exact same spot and the PoCo gave the green light. So why are you blaming me and saying that I screwed up?

Finally, the customer *has* power.


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

egruhadfio said:


> The wiring inspector comes whenever he wants, there are no appointments. Sometimes they come a year or two later. Ask people in NJ who work in PSE&G's area.
> 
> A small loss? I'm not sure what type of margins your company has but $400-500 is far from "a small loss".
> 
> ...


Sooo..if the customer has power, what exactly was the point of this thread then? :001_huh:

If the POCO already did the reconnect, then this whole discussion is, in a way, moot.  

As for the dollar amount you quoted, things must cost a hell of a lot more over there.  

But in any event, seems like the power is on and all's well. :thumbup:


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## egruhadfio (Jul 21, 2014)

mxslick said:


> Sooo..if the customer has power, what exactly was the point of this thread then? :001_huh:


 Why are you giving me a hard time?

My question is very clear, what power does the PoCo have? Can they legally disconnect power to a person because the contractor doesn't move a hook?



> If the POCO already did the reconnect, then this whole discussion is, in a way, moot.


 I did the reconnect. 



> As for the dollar amount you quoted, things must cost a hell of a lot more over there.


 again, you are not being helpful in any way.



> But in any event, seems like the power is on and all's well. :thumbup:


No, all is not well because the wiring inspector from the PoCo wants the POA and weather head moved. I already explained this.

Are you even an electrician? Why are you commenting in this thread? Could you go find trouble elsewhere please?


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## FrunkSlammer (Aug 31, 2013)

egruhadfio said:


> Why are you giving me a hard time?


If we actually knew who you used to be, we'd probably give you a harder time. :laughing:

Hard to tell since most of NJ gets banned.


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

egruhadfio said:


> Why are you giving me a hard time?


Not giving you a hard time at all, but you have been refusing to accept what just about everyone else on this thread has already said, which is a very clear answer to:



egruhadfio said:


> My question is very clear, what power does the PoCo have? Can they legally disconnect power to a person because the contractor doesn't move a hook?


The answers are: Every power since THEY supply it and are ultimately responsible for the safety and reliability; and YES they can legally disconnect power to a customer for any reason, _*especially if notice was given of an issue, no matter how minor it may seem to anyone else. *_ 



egruhadfio said:


> I did the reconnect.


So now you say you did the reconnect yourself, without the POCO signing off on the installation.  Good thinking, now the POCO has even more right to come out at any time, without any notice, and disconnect the service. 



egruhadfio said:


> again, you are not being helpful in any way.


I think many others will disagree with you on that.:thumbsup:




egruhadfio said:


> No, all is not well because the wiring inspector from the PoCo wants the POA and weather head moved. I already explained this.


So now we are back to the position that you still refuse to acknowledge that you are simply refusing to do the right thing by either filing the appeal on the wire inspector's ruling or just fixing the issue the POCO flagged. In all the time you wasted arguing on this thread you could have had the repairs made. 



egruhadfio said:


> Are you even an electrician? Why are you commenting in this thread? Could you go find trouble elsewhere please?


Yes I am, because I have every right to comment on this thread, and you seem the be the one wanting to start trouble sir. You asked a question, we gave you the answer (which is not the one you wanted to hear), but that's the way things work on any forum. I have been given answers and comments on here that I did not want to hear (or agree with) but that is why I am here, to learn more and correct any mistakes or bad habits before they come back to bite me in the butt. :laughing:


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

Okay, to answer your original question, Yes, the power company has power, no pun intended. They can refuse to connect you and, if they deem the installation isn't safe, they can disconnect you. Capice? And don't you dare question if I'm an electrician. :laughing:


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

egruhadfio said:


> Are you even an electrician?


That's my line.


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## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

> So now you say you did the reconnect yourself, without the POCO signing off on the installation. Good thinking, now the POCO has even more right to come out at any time, without any notice, and disconnect the service.


That is the way it is done for PSE&G. After all the paperwork is done and you have the go ahead, they will go out and unlock the meter. The contractor disconnects and reconnects the service. Inspections are done later.

In my area, until recently, the power company (JCP&L) does the disconnect and reconnect. It was a real pain in the ass. you had to schedule everything for the same day with the right time slots. Power co. disconnects in the morning. Electrician changes the service, town inspector inspects in the afternoon and issues a cut in card. No POCO inspection. You give the cut in card to the utility when they come back in the afternoon. I never had an inspector not issue a cut in card, even though he might have wanted something changed.

Once you get to know the linemen they will cut it free in the morning and be back at lunch to cut in without card. just fax the card at the end of the day, and then they have the afternoon free! A lot of times only the outside is ready and they would power it up.

The parent Ohio company made a lot of changes when they bought the local company. Now licensed electrical contractors do there own D&R. Make it up good because no one is coming back out. call in for an inspection after all work is complete. Three phase and single phase over a certain size are still handled by the POCO. 

They still use the same simple seal on the meter not the lock that PSE&G uses.


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## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

> Hard to tell since most of NJ gets banned.


I must be a disgrace to NJ. I never got banned.:laughing:


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## Michigan Master (Feb 25, 2013)

egruhadfio said:


> Why are you giving me a hard time?


So did you learn anything? If not, post some pics and we'll help you out.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

> Why are you giving me a hard time?
> 
> My question is very clear, what power does the PoCo have? Can they legally disconnect power to a person because the contractor doesn't move a hook?


I already answered this from your own poco's green book quoted above. 
The answer is yes, they can disconnect the power. Is that giving you a hard time ? No, it is giving you an answer. You, unfortunately (and as others pointed out), don't want to listen to any answer other than the one you would like to hear.

Poco's generally do not like to "disconnect" power for these reasons, however, just due to the way it is perceived by the general public. That is why they will generally just "refuse to reconnect", putting the onus on you, the contractor.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

I thought this was just a trick question...


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## FrunkSlammer (Aug 31, 2013)

It's a rhetorical question.


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

mxslick said:


> So now you say you *did the reconnect yourself, without the POCO signing off on the installation.*  Good thinking, *now the POCO has even more right to come out at any time, without any notice, and disconnect the service. *
> 
> 
> 
> So now we are back to the position that you still refuse to acknowledge that you are simply refusing to *do the right thing by either filing the appeal on the wire inspector's ruling or just fixing the issue the POCO flagged. *





cabletie said:


> That is the way it is done for PSE&G. After all the paperwork is done and you have the go ahead, they will go out and unlock the meter. *The contractor disconnects and reconnects the service.* Inspections are done later.


That is true, even my old POCO would let the contractor do dis/reconnects without an issue (even though their book says otherwise). 

BUT, in this case, since the POCO already said they wouldn't reconnect, and he did it anyway, now he's gonna be in trouble and they can and most likely WILL come out and disconnect. 

The POCO is not that stupid....in a short time they will discover that a reconnect wasn't called for on a job that was flagged, they will send a crew to find out why, and BAM! disconnect on the spot. :whistling2::laughing:



cabletie said:


> I must be a disgrace to NJ. I never got banned.:laughing:


No disgrace, you just know how to be an adult. :thumbup::laughing:

And by the way, while this troll-fest was fun, topic is played out and thread is closed.


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