# New construction home



## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Some people do sqft some fine tooth comb it and add a guess of t&m plus room for screw ups....I've never done the software route, always did pencil and paper.

Congratulations on the move!!!!


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Yes, you should have prints to follow. That is what you price off of.

If they expect you to engineer the whole job, they better be ready to pay for it.

Good luck with the new business. I am a few years in front of you and I still don't like bidding bigger jobs. I prefer service and installation work, in and out with payment in hand, no other contractors to deal with and all the other crap that goes along with new construction and big renovation. Just my opinion.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

HackWork said:


> Yes, you should have prints to follow. That is what you price off of.
> 
> If they expect you to engineer the whole job, they better be ready to pay for it.




Ya I have the Baseline prints. I've been working commercial for 10 yrs and I'm so used to following "electrical prints" that basically detail where everything goes. I realize this isn't engineered that way and will entail more design on my part


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

WronGun said:


> Ya I have the Baseline prints. I've been working commercial for 10 yrs and I'm so used to following "electrical prints" that basically detail where everything goes. I realize this isn't engineered that way and will entail more design on my part
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Those prints should include everything. All the outlet placement, lights, switches, etc.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

HackWork said:


> Those prints should include everything. All the outlet placement, lights, switches, etc.




No def not .. Just layout 


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

WronGun said:


> No def not .. Just layout
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Someone has to do that. The job needs to be engineered to code. That is time consuming work, I certainly wouldn't do it for free and don't know of any electrician who would. 

It's most likely going to need to be drawn out for the permit too.


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

Panel schedule could double as a checklist.


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## wcord (Jan 23, 2011)

However you arrive at your price, make sure your quote details the quantities of devices.
It eliminates a pile of arguing whether or not the 30 recessed lights or workshop seperate circuits were included.


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

All I can say is, if you're going the new construction residential route, good luck.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

I believe the op wants to know how much per outlet, etc.

On a small house you can just count the number of sw, rec, lights etc. Figure how many 1 gang, 2 gang 3 gang, etc boxes and plates and price them with at least a 40% markup. 

Guesstimate the amount of wire and figure it in. Count gfci's smoke detectors carbons, disconnect switches, service materials such as ground wire etc.

After that you can guesstimate how many days it will take...


The other way is to give a price / device, price per individual circuits, outdoor devices, fans, lights, service work etc. Just break the job down to its parts.

I use between $40-50 per device. For services it can be $2500-5000 depending on size and sub panels


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

I think if you can get in good with some gcs, you can do fine for a while. If you have some guys to work under you that are good and the right price... Maybe you can venture off to other stuff and make even more! Always a game of balance.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

drspec said:


> All I can say is, if you're going the new construction residential route, good luck.




I don't plan on chasing NC, but just starting out right now , doesn't hurt to take the job


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

HackWork said:


> Those prints should include everything. All the outlet placement, lights, switches, etc.


You've never worked in NC. Half of the time they just send you a floor plan and a number of ceiling fans, cans, flush lights, etc they want included in the bid.

I would never draw it up but a simple spec resi plan only takes me about 15 mins to bid and type up.

If its a custom home, it takes longer and Ill generally break it down per room.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Dennis, it sounds as if the OP has received plans without any electrical on it.

Would you work that way? Or would you charge to do all the engineering of an entire new construction house?


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Side questions... You have people to work for you yet?


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

WronGun said:


> doesn't hurt to take the job
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 Those could be words that come back to haunt you.

Staying busy does not equal profit. Just be careful. Builders LOVE to take advantage of new business owners.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

drspec said:


> You've never worked in NC. Half of the time they just send you a floor plan and a number of ceiling fans, cans, flush lights, etc they want included in the bid.
> 
> I would never draw it up but a simple spec resi plan on takes me about 15 mins to bid and type up.


That seems kinda crazy to me.

Even small 1 room additions I have been asked to bid came with real architect made drawings with all the electric on the plans.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

Majewski said:


> Side questions... You have people to work for you yet?




Yes, I started the shop 4 yrs ago .... I've been doing service work 


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

HackWork said:


> That seems kinda crazy to me.
> 
> Even small 1 room additions I have been asked to bid came with real architect made drawings with all the electric on the plans.


Consider yourself lucky. I've been given plans verbally, in pencil on printer paper.... etc.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

1) Build up your Submittals... as the owner arch can hold your feet to the fire over substitutions. Such issues are more than enough to blow up your profit.

2) Get the owner arch to sign off on the basics -- stuff like switch heights, receptacle heights, etc. Make this boilerplate. Wrap it into your Submittals.

You can't believe the grief you can suffer when the owner arch wails about such basic issues -- and demands that you re-box this or that.

3) Always allow for load growth// branch circuit extensions in the design phase. Somehow the owner arch will want add-ons. Such Extras are pure profit -- let them happen.

4) TIMELINESS is a HUGE issue with any materials dependencies, stuff you're not obtaining through your regular channels. 

5) Spend serious time working up your EXCLUSIONS. These need to be built up into a Universal Appendix -- say "Package X" -- that is tacked on to EVERY bid you kick out. Trust me, these, the exclusions, are essential to avoid tears... namely, yours.

Typical exclusions would be all government fees and permits, ditto Poco fees and permits. One NEVER knows what the powers that be will inflict as fees and permits.

6) ANY BID has to address CASH FLOW TIMELINESS. 

7) Any bid has to address -- as boilerplate -- that ALL of the rough framing is done. This is necessary in residential -- yet virtually never seen in commercial work. This is a STANDARD condition in the trades for residential. 

Which also gets to WINDOW. You'll want, DEMAND, a window to work your magic. Within that window, you don't want hardly ANY other trades on the job site. This is standard in residential work -- never seen in commercial work.

Your window has to come after the plumber is done, yet before the rockers cut loose. 

8) Lending out of your tools and assets has to be nixxed. Ladders will always walk// or come back ruined. Ditto for extension cords.

9) You'll have to address Sequencing, Temp power, and all the rest. ALL of these issues will be MILES away from your commercial experience.

In residential, one comes out, does ones thing, (sets the Service, it is phase one hereabouts) and then pulls off. Then you come back to rough in. Then you come back to trim out. 

Things go south when this rhythm is broken... typically by the owner arch.

&&&&

Since practically everything is a tad different across the nation, you have to inspect the tempo and stylings of your peer competitors.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Majewski said:


> Consider yourself lucky. I've been given plans verbally, in pencil on printer paper.... etc.


Oh me too, and that's when I tell them to call me when they have plans :laughing:


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

HackWork said:


> Oh me too, and that's when I tell them to call me when they have plans :laughing:


I usually just offer to re draw it for the submission.... For a price.


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

HackWork said:


> That seems kinda crazy to me.
> 
> Even small 1 room additions I have been asked to bid came with real architect made drawings with all the electric on the plans.


 
They don't require any of that for resi planning. Since everything has to be wired to at least code minimum, full detailed drawings are rarely provided. Commercial is different.

The town I live in used to make you draw everything out. Receps, lights, panel, etc, but you could hand draw it and it didn't even have to be to scale. They don't require it now so nobody does it.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

drspec said:


> They don't require any of that for resi planning. Since everything has to be wired to at least code minimum, full detailed drawings are rarely provided. Commercial is different.
> 
> The town I live in used to make you draw everything out. Receps, lights, panel, etc, but you could hand draw it and it didn't even have to be to scale. They don't require it now so nobody does it.


This is what I'm most familiar with. Usually when a professional set of drawings is used it screams type A personality and I walk.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

I might add that virtually all ECs run away from new residential construction as fast as they can.

It's for a reason.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

drspec said:


> They don't require any of that for resi planning. Since everything has to be wired to at least code minimum, full detailed drawings are rarely provided. Commercial is different.
> 
> The town I live in used to make you draw everything out. Receps, lights, panel, etc, but you could hand draw it and it didn't even have to be to scale. They don't require it now so nobody does it.


I see. Here it is required for the permits.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Well, let em learn!


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

telsa said:


> I might add that virtually all ECs run away from new residential construction as fast as they can.
> 
> It's for a reason.


I have a good friend right now who is an EC and did only service and installation work. He got slow and found a couple of GC's to do some work for. 

6 months later they are 3 jobs behind on payments, they bid jobs without consulting him and tell him what he is going to get for the job, and he is stuck because he is scared that if he stops they won't pay him for all the jobs they owe him on.

This story is one that I have read 50 million times, but people never believe it and get stuck in the same rutt.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Yup! That's the most common story! And those gcs also, probably go on here asking how to do the work themselves anyways!


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Dennis Alwon said:


> On a small house you can just count the number of sw, rec, lights etc. Figure how many 1 gang, 2 gang 3 gang, etc boxes and plates and price them with at least a 40% markup.
> 
> Guesstimate the amount of wire and figure it in. Count gfci's smoke detectors carbons, disconnect switches, service materials such as ground wire etc.
> 
> After that you can guesstimate how many days it will take...


Lets call that the detailed way...


> The other way is to give a price / device, price per individual circuits, outdoor devices, fans, lights, service work etc. Just break the job down to its parts.
> 
> I use between $40-50 per device. For services it can be $2500-5000 depending on size and sub panels


...and call that the quick and dirty way. 

IMO you need to do a bunch of jobs the detailed way before you have good numbers to do it the quick and dirty way. If you do it that way now, you're just pulling numbers out of your ass. 

It's also critical that you know how to write a proposal - structure the payment schedule, specify scope of work, possibly some specific exceptions, requirements (things you require the GC to provide or handle in order to do your work) etc.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

HackWork said:


> That seems kinda crazy to me.
> 
> Even small 1 room additions I have been asked to bid came with real architect made drawings with all the electric on the plans.


That is a tri-state area thing, other areas vary to the point of a floor plan on the back of a match book! Sadly!!


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## Signal1 (Feb 10, 2016)

HackWork said:


> I have a good friend right now who is an EC and did only service and installation work. He got slow and found a couple of GC's to do some work for.
> 
> 6 months later they are 3 jobs behind on payments, they bid jobs without consulting him and tell him what he is going to get for the job, and he is stuck because he is scared that if he stops they won't pay him for all the jobs they owe him on.
> 
> This story is one that I have read 50 million times, but people never believe it and get stuck in the same rutt.


It is sad to see guys go through his but I can only say "I told you so", so many times. No one ever thinks it's going to happen to them.

Remember if you do three jobs that didn't make you any money, and it takes three more jobs to make up for that, then you did six jobs for nothing.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Signal1 said:


> It is sad to see guys go through his but I can only say "I told you so", so many times. No one ever thinks it's going to happen to them.
> 
> Remember if you do three jobs that didn't make you any money, and it takes three more jobs to make up for that, then you did six jobs for nothing.


That is a pretty conservative number.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

If I caught myself in that situation I'd walk. I'd have words with the gc or client of whomever but it's still walk.


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

Been there, done that, have the T-shirt


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

drspec said:


> Been there, done that, have the T-shirt


Burn the shirt, make yourself feel a little better.


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Burn the shirt, make yourself feel a little better.


I was owed about $10k.....hired a lawyer, collected all but about $2500 before they dissolved the company. That was 2 years ago. Wrote it off as a huge learning experience.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

drspec said:


> I was owed about $10k.....hired a lawyer, collected all but about $2500 before they dissolved the company. That was 2 years ago. Wrote it off as a huge learning experience.


This is a rare story.... The lawyer part is the rare part. You got lucky.


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## lightman (Oct 14, 2015)

When I started I would do a material take off and estimate the labor. Then I would compare it to $ per sq ft. After I gained some experience I would go by sq ft plus any unusual extras. Generally theres not a lot of profit in new residential work but I made profit from the material that I would have left over when doing smaller jobs. When I could get commercial work I would pass on the residential stuff. Good Luck with your new company.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

I dont remember the last time I got house prints that actually had an electrical design. I sketch out a basic one, bid off that, and if we get the job then we do a walk through with the homeowner and change what they dont like and readjust the price. It usually takes me an hour or so to draw and estimate.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Going_Commando said:


> I dont remember the last time I got house prints that actually had an electrical design. I sketch out a basic one, bid off that, and if we get the job then we do a walk through with the homeowner and change what they dont like and readjust the price. It usually takes me an hour or so to draw and estimate.


I'm sure that saves a ton of headaches down the line. :thumbsup:


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## d2043 (Nov 12, 2013)

lightman said:


> When I started I would do a material take off and estimate the labor. Then I would compare it to $ per sq ft. After I gained some experience I would go by sq ft plus any unusual extras. Generally theres not a lot of profit in new residential work but I made profit from the material that I would have left over when doing smaller jobs. When I could get commercial work I would pass on the residential stuff. Good Luck with your new company.



I always do a material takeoff too. Estimating the labor is fairly easy after you have done several homes under different conditions. I have a multiplier I use for tall ceiling heights over 8'. Remember you will be using extra wire on those tall ceiling and going up and down the ladder more. I also try to find out who some of the other subs might be. Builder run projects usually run smoother than owner run projects, but sometimes that is not the case either. Do your job, do it well, don't be afraid to ask for payment. Trust your instinct, if you don't feel right about it you probably should either pass the job or raise the price accordingly. I never lost money on a job I didn't do.:icon_wink:


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

I'm taking a stab at this....I've been unknowingly working on a job where the guy doing some stuff around the house for the homeowner is actually a very reputable home builder ... he showed me his portfolio of dozens of 3 million$ + homes.... he was extremely persistent on wanting to bring me in after watching me work for 3 days... he's picking me up and taking me to (2) 7,000-8,000 sq homes tomorrow. One is ready for electrical in about 3 weeks.... I don't even know where to start... he's giving me prints , I think I would like to hire someone to help me bid this, because I figured this guy can give my company all the "steady work flow" it needs and I won't need to deal with any other GC's...I can concentrate on service on the flip side.


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## jw0445 (Oct 9, 2009)

WronGun said:


> I'm taking a stab at this....I've been unknowingly working on a job where the guy doing some stuff around the house for the homeowner is actually a very reputable home builder ... he showed me his portfolio of dozens of 3 million$ + homes.... he was extremely persistent on wanting to bring me in after watching me work for 3 days... he's picking me up and taking me to (2) 7,000-8,000 sq homes tomorrow. One is ready for electrical in about 3 weeks.... I don't even know where to start... he's giving me prints , I think I would like to hire someone to help me bid this, because I figured this guy can give my company all the "steady work flow" it needs and I won't need to deal with any other GC's...I can concentrate on service on the flip side.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No GC has a home that large 3 weeks out and not have an electrical contractor lined up. He's hoping you come in substantially cheaper due to your "newbieness". Getting help with bidding experience in this is a great idea you have. Hope it works out for you.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

jw0445 said:


> No GC has a home that large 3 weeks out and not have an electrical contractor lined up. He's hoping you come in substantially cheaper due to your "newbieness". Getting help with bidding experience in this is a great idea you have. Hope it works out for you.




He had a long talk with me... His EC that he has been using for 20 yrs is now 400 lbs!! He's lazy , hard to work with , and doesn't even check on the jobs... He said he's had enough with him and needs a young professional to take over 


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Do your self a favor and stay far, far away from new homes. Only took me 20 years to figure that one out.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

WronGun said:


> He had a long talk with me... His EC that he has been using for 20 yrs is now 400 lbs!! He's lazy , hard to work with , and doesn't even check on the jobs... He said he's had enough with him and needs a young professional to take over
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


None one has ever wired a 3 million dollar home with just one guy. You would need 6 guys just to keep pace. 
I am starting to think you may be a bull****ter:whistling2:


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

You're a one man show? I've been on my own since 2002 and would never do a 7000 sq ft house without help. You can't wire fast enough to stay ahead of the builder. Last one was close to that and I got my son and daughter to come help me.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

backstay said:


> You're a one man show? I've been on my own since 2002 and would never do a 7000 sq ft house without help. You can't wire fast enough to stay ahead of the builder. Last one was close to that and I got my son and daughter to come help me.


Especially when he is going to be wiring a 20 station tanning salon in a month or so.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

backstay said:


> You're a one man show? I've been on my own since 2002 and would never do a 7000 sq ft house without help. You can't wire fast enough to stay ahead of the builder. Last one was close to that and I got my son and daughter to come help me.


Yup. Once it gets over 3000 sq ft, 1 guy is not enough to keep up with realistic construction schedules, or at least that's been my experience. That's with overtime. We rewired a 6000 sq ft house with most of the plaster walls remaining, and I did a very large portion by myself. After 9 months of that, I said f*ck this and moved to California. After a year in California I moved back and wrapped it up. :laughing:


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

backstay said:


> You're a one man show? I've been on my own since 2002 and would never do a 7000 sq ft house without help. You can't wire fast enough to stay ahead of the builder. Last one was close to that and I got my son and daughter to come help me.




I have a few very good cash guys , no full timers or regular employees....I'm pairing up with another small EC that has about 5-6 guys, or else i would never attempt this... is there money to be made ? I really don't know .... but I'll find out...and I'm not sure how to even set up logistics between 2 separate companies.... I'll be honest and say I'm not fully experienced in this area but the other EC is 18 yrs experienced


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

One can wire _anything _ alone given a window of opportunity to do so 

One can make basic prints for customers on a computer

One can use a program to alter pdf's received, then send them back

~CS~


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

chicken steve said:


> One can wire _anything _ alone given a window of opportunity to do so
> 
> One can make basic prints for customers on a computer
> 
> ...


He is not in your fairy-tail world. One guy cannot do a 7000 sq-foot house and even think of keeping up, unless he was doing going commando's house. 

Are you trying to make him go under on his first job?


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

WronGun said:


> I have a few very good cash guys , no full timers or regular employees....I'm pairing up with another small EC that has about 5-6 guys, or else i would never attempt this... is there money to be made ? I really don't know .... but I'll find out...and I'm not sure how to even set up logistics between 2 separate companies.... I'll be honest and say I'm not fully experienced in this area but the other EC is 18 yrs experienced
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


He has been in business for 18 years, you have no experience. Who do you think is going to make money?


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

i must agree with some here who say you cant do a job that size without help. unless this project is moving so slow that you can keep up! a resi EC dream can turn in to a nightmare! get help with the bid and the job and good luck!:thumbsup:


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

I got done wired up a 600 sq meter ( about 6400 sq feet ) house not too long ago and it hard to keep up with yourself and this one I did have to get couple guys plus my wife to join in me to get this done in fast pace ( unuseal pratice in Philippines unless you are prepared for long hours ! ) 

anything under 300 sq meter house I can do it pretty good speed but once you get over that plateu ya better get ready for extra hands to speed it up. I usesally run insmack of 400's recentally.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Things really change with scale.

1) A LOT more footsteps between your pile of materials and their point of installation.

2) A need to bump up your conductors -- just about every way you turn.

All #14 homeruns require #12... etc.

Extra panels, extra feeders, as the Service ramps to 320 Amps, sometimes even more.

You're describing a scenario of financial molestation, yours.

His old EC knows his quirks. You don't.

I'd expect you to lose money on this build, if not go under.

You want a stream of small jobs at premium rates -- until you've got your sea legs under you.

What will you do when your crew decides to not show up ? This happens when a job proves to be much more difficult for them than they expected.

Believe it.

You'd not believe how many guys get sick when it's feeder pulling day.

You CAN'T keep up your production tempo for very long once you start pulling overtime.

Almost immediately, the crew starts to take 10 hours to produce what they'd previously done in only 8 hours.

This is one of the reasons why the 8-hour day caught on. Employers discovered that the shorter days still produced the same amount of output -- something that they never, ever, believed possible until it was driven down their throats.

It was a labor revolution -- about a hundred-years back. :thumbup:


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

sbrn33 said:


> He is not in your fairy-tail world. One guy cannot do a 7000 sq-foot house and even think of keeping up, unless he was doing going commando's house.
> 
> Are you trying to make him go under on his first job?



Risk is what separates us from those who always aim at low hanging fruit

If you have not _bitten off more than you can chew_, you'll never be a successful EC :no:

~CS~


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Biting off more than you can chew as a young contractor is what puts the majority of young contractors out of business. Any idea of what the failure rate of electrical start ups is?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

sbrn33 said:


> Biting off more than you can chew as a young contractor is what puts the majority of young contractors out of business. Any idea of what the failure rate of electrical start ups is?


IMO, a lot of new companies fail because they take the wrong risks and not the right ones.

A wrong risk, IMO, is getting overwhelmed by taking on too much or too large work.

A good risk is putting money into advertising the right way to get good work and a great return on investment.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

WronGun said:


> backstay said:
> 
> 
> > You're a one man show? I've been on my own since 2002 and would never do a 7000 sq ft house without help. You can't wire fast enough to stay ahead of the builder. Last one was close to that and I got my son and daughter to come help me.
> ...


Do you have money in the bank to cover payroll, temp power, temp lighting, and all tge materials you need if the GC decides to hold funds for a couple months? Mobilization is expensive, especially starting from scratch. Just sayin.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

In my opinion, a smaller contractor should be aiming for a good mix of smaller projects. There's less credit exposure and faster cash flow. Also, if you misquote a smaller project, it's no big deal. I have seen small contractors take on bigger jobs (one plus year duration) and they were poor going in and poor going out.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Face it, this business is usually a slow grow. The only time I have seen a guy grow fast is when he quits his job and steals his old boss's customers. Fair game.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

sbrn33 said:


> Biting off more than you can chew as a young contractor is what puts the majority of young contractors out of business. Any idea of what the failure rate of electrical start ups is?


95% in_ year_ one, according to SBA stats sbrn. It gets a tad _kinder _as the years progress.

And there's a world of reasons _by far and large_ more pertinent than fast growth , fast $$$, etc.....

Failure being always the orphan for a litany of excuses down to '_not wrapping it good' _ is offset by success's braggadocio claiming the insider, the connection, their biz savvy, new shoes, etc...... 

Where the reality is market _timing_ , a blind _eye_, a guardian angel , all the elements one can not buy,bottle or sell greased their ride....

~CS~


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

chicken steve said:


> 95% in_ year_ one, according to SBA stats sbrn. It gets a tad _kinder _as the years progress.
> 
> And there's a world of reasons _by far and large_ more pertinent than fast growth , fast $$$, etc.....
> 
> ...


Steve, don't you think you're giving a little too much credit to blind dumb luck?

Businesses succeed because the right decisions were made. People make money in recessions, in poor areas, and -insert any other adversity here-. 

Everyone with a failed business always had the hindsight to say "I should have done _________ and it would have worked out much better".


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

We are in a mature trade.

So the new guy needs to buy an old fellow out -- or hit the business cycle 'right.'

ALL of the larger firms in our trade have been transferred via buy-outs... even from father to son.

Due to IRS taxation, fathers of a major EC can't just give their firm over to their sons.

&&&&

Trump is practically guaranteed to initiate a building boom... at least for masons.

Since his wall of protection will need no end of CAT6 -- even ECs have some action coming.

The financial markets are freaking out -- because Trump is guaranteed to put America FIRST.

They haven't seen that attitude since 1988.

The George H.W. Bush - Bill Clinton - George W. Bush - Barry Soetoro dynasty of the Globalists is drawing to an end in sixty-days.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

Majewski said:


> I usually just offer to re draw it for the submission.... For a price.


If and when I get a resi print that has no electrical layout , I copy the
print and keep my own copy ...do all engineering on my copy and then
work up a room to room bid that shows exactly what goes in each room.

I send my bid back along with their blank print they gave me.

My ass is completely covered and they dont get free engineering ,.
If I get the job , THEN , I bring my copy to the job and that is where
we start off at.

Watch out! I have had GC's "hide" the architects electrical layout from
me and send me the "blank" print..BUT they use their print to get
permits. Verify at the local building department that your pulling an
electrical permit for what YOU submitted and not the GC's ..it may
be loaded with costs you never seen!:yes:


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