# Old work boxes



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Ask for a code reference.


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

ditto!


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## Mike D (Sep 16, 2008)

I asked for code, he is trying to use 110.3 What a joke.


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

Mike D said:


> I asked for code, he is trying to use 110.3 What a joke.


Are the boxes going to be installed in a wall with a fire resistance rating?

If they are the UL white book requires the boxes to be fastened to the framing members. 

Secondly, if the boxes are intended for the support of a luminaire and the boxes are supported from the building finish they are only permitted to support a fixture weighing not more than 6 pounds.

Short of the two things mentioned above I can't find an NEC reason that the boxes cannot be supported by the drywall. This may sound crazy, but have you looked at the installation instructions for the boxes? The installation instructions ARE part of the listing.

Pete


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## NacBooster29 (Oct 25, 2010)

What does he require if you want to install u.c. lights? 
Or leave a whip for a strip light after finish? 
Sounds like a clown


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

I've also heard of inspectors disallowing box extensions on new construction.


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## Mike D (Sep 16, 2008)

There will not be lights installed on a remodel box.
These are not in a firewall.

The instructions or specs do not indicate either way.
I have reached out to the manufacturer (p&s), they are having their engineer/ul people look into it. They have verbalized that this has never been brought up before.
I have also located a letter from a ul engineer on the subject. It seems that this has come up before with remodel cans vs new construction cans. The letter states there are no differences between them.

I will add that I am being failed for "not allowed to have old work boxes in an open wall".

I say again, there are no boxes installed at this point. There is simply a loop of wire where they lights or outlets will go, once we have specifics from homeowner, on trim.

I am meeting him on site tomorrow, should be a fun one.


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## zen (Jun 15, 2009)

We have the same problem here. Often these fancy bathrooms have decorative cabinets around the his or her sink and you will never get the location right. We had to run 1 switchleg to the general area ending at a pancake on a stud. Then inform the builder were gonna make a hole. It become so common they would cut out a large section like half a sheet or more of rock . We d do our thang then back goes rock then cabinets then mirror. In the kitchen we had to single wire all the oc and uc lights from a jbox up high or down lown and the fixture was acceptable as make up box. Good luck

learning to learn


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

I haven't roughed in a box for a vanity wall-light in _years._


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## zen (Jun 15, 2009)

480 thats because the inspector knows you can make lights work without wire and if u did rough in a wall light it would only be so the inspector can see how electrcity works

learning to learn


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Use of of these>












~CS~


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

The ahj would be better off busting on 314.27(A)(1), and you'd be better off providing a cut sheet for the box>>

https://www.platt.com/CutSheets/Legrand/PS_C1-18-WAC_PDF.pdf

most old works are rated for 20lb's ....


~CS~


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## Mike D (Sep 16, 2008)

I met the inspector. It is his position that 314.23c "finished surface" is defined as completely finished on both sides. He stated that an old work box cannot be used in any application that has an open wall, as that is only 50percent finished.


So that is the reason he is failing job.
He stated that if they see a remodel box installed on the job during trim out that they would fail job and make us cut rock and use structure mounted box.

Unreal. 

I have sent a request for review the interpretation to the chief inspector.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

The only way he could possibly get you is on the specs of the sheetrock which used to say that nothing should be supported from the rock alone. This, I am certain, is a legal disclaimer.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Mike D said:


> I met the inspector. It is his position that 314.23c "finished surface" is defined as completely finished on both sides. He stated that an old work box cannot be used in any application that has an open wall, as that is only 50percent finished.
> 
> 
> So that is the reason he is failing job.
> ...




Reason 6527 to hate inspectors.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Mike D said:


> I have sent a request for review the interpretation to the chief inspector.


been there, done that, and when over the  chiefs head to the state board after 6 months of inactivity

in my case, there were a lot of zero's involved, in yours it's the cost of the box i've posted

power plays often are about deeper pockets , not right/wrong Mike

~CS~


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

480sparky said:


> I haven't roughed in a box for a vanity wall-light in _years._


I like that idea. Thanks  .


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

99cents said:


> I like that idea. Thanks .



I just leave large loops in the wall. Usually, the HO has no freakin' clue what they want for lights at this stage of building. Here's a single vanity bath. One light, or two? Above the mirror, or next to it?










Then, when the HO *finally* decides what they want (which won't be until well after the rock is up!), it's just a matter of putting in some old-work boxes.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

480sparky said:


> I just leave large loops in the wall. Usually, the HO has no freakin' clue what they want for lights at this stage of building. Here's a single vanity bath. One light, or two? Above the mirror, or next to it?
> 
> [/IMG]


My interior designer would kiss you for this tip... and that's a kiss you would enjoy  .

I guess I will take it on your behalf...

I assume you leave the staples loose so you can pull on the slack?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

99cents said:


> ......I assume you leave the staples loose so you can pull on the slack?



Yes. Tacked in just enough to hold the NM in place until the rock goes up. If needed, a good tug on the NM will pull the staples out if need be. But usually there's enough slack to begin with.


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

99cents said:


> My interior designer would kiss you for this tip... and that's a kiss you would enjoy  . I guess I will take it on your behalf... I assume you leave the staples loose so you can pull on the slack?


The same technique works great for stair lighting


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## Barjack (Mar 28, 2010)

Mike D said:


> I met the inspector. It is his position that 314.23c "finished surface" is defined as completely finished on both sides. He stated that an old work box cannot be used in any application that has an open wall, as that is only 50percent finished.


So what about ceilings with attic access above them, or floors with crawl space below them? No old work boxes there either?


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## Mike D (Sep 16, 2008)

He is saying no old work boxes on new construction projects. If the walls are open on rough at all, it is not considered a finished surface until the building co is issued.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Mike D said:


> He is saying no old work boxes on new construction projects. If the walls are open on rough at all, it is not considered a finished surface until the building co is issued.


Then it's not a finished surface...... _by his own definition_.


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## Mike D (Sep 16, 2008)

I sent in emails from the manufacture as we'll a letter from a UL engineer on the subject.

Crazy.....

I will have yo post up the email traffic between the chief and I from the last week.


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## zen (Jun 15, 2009)

What exactly defines open wall. What about where a door or window gets framed in. Switch gets moved to other wall withcut in box

learning to learn


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## Barjack (Mar 28, 2010)

This inspector needs an ounce of humility.

His logic is flawed. He is saying that a method before the rough in is somehow unsafe, but will be safe after the rough in, after the CO.


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## Roger (Jul 7, 2007)

I'll say it and you can tell the inspector I did, he's a dumb a$$

Roger


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## Mike D (Sep 16, 2008)

Email traffic with inspector......



I recently requested an electrical rough inspection on one of my residential jobs. This job contained approximately eight (8) locations of where a wall light, ceiling light or outlet would be required, yet the specific location was to be determined at a later date. Of these eight locations four are bathroom vanity light walls. In these instances it is common work practices to loop an NM cable in the walls or ceiling with enough cable to allow for more than one option in actual fixture or outlet final placement.
This is common in these large custom homes due to many factors beyond my control as the licensed electrical contractor. In these instances, we come back to job after the finished surface has been installed and cut holes for specified light or outlet boxes. These boxes are installed and used in accordance with NEC and the instructions included in the listing and labeling.

I received a Violation Correction Notice that had one violation listed that I would like to review with you concerning the above described conditions.

1.Cannot use cut in boxes (old work) on open walls.

I met with the inspector on site to review the two violations in person. I asked the inspector how could a rough in inspection fail for using old work boxes on open walls, when there are not any old work boxes currently installed. He stated that I would not be allowed to use an old work box anywhere in this project, as it is a new construction project. He then stated that old work boxes are to be used in remodel projects only.
I then asked for an NEC reference. I was given 110.3(B) and 314.23.

*110.3(B)- Installation and use. Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling. (NEC 2011)*

I have studied the instructions and spec sheets for the old work boxes. I do not see any indication or direction in the instructions in regards to new construction or remodel use specifically.

I also have done some research in regards to the UL listing. I have located a letter from a UL engineer on the subject. Please take a moment to review.

http://www.mikeholt.com/technical.php?id=UL/unformatted/remodel&type=u&title=%22Remodel%22%20fixtures%20used%20in%20new%20construction?%20(8-10-2K)


I also contacted the manufacturer for some clarification. I have attached the instructions and the email from the manufacturer. The manufacturerstated “ it is quite common for old work boxes to be used in new construction (many applications where there may not be a stud to attach to,etc.)”


*314.23- Enclosures within the scope of this article shall be supported in accordance with one or more of the provisions in 314.23(A) through (H)(NEC 2011)*
*314.23(C)- Mounting in finished surfaces. An enclosure mounted in a finished surface shall be rigidly secured thereto by clamps, anchors, or fittings identified for the application.(NEC 2011)*

I asked the inspector to clarify how I would not meet this requirement by installing the box during the trim out stage of the project. I would be mounting the box in a “finished surface”. I also pointed out to the inspector a wall on this projected was open on one side and still had drywall on the other side. I had installed an old work box for an added light switch in the closet on the “finished surface” side. He stated that was non-compliant installation of the box. I asked him to clarify to me how he felt that the existing finished surface side did not meet 314.23(C). He stated that it was only 50% finished and the open wall on the other side meant that I would be required to use a structure mounted plastic box.
It was explained to me that the position and interpretation of this requirement was that the term “finished surface” is to be defined as after the city has issued a CO and all work was completed on the project. He stated that if I used an old work box during the trim he would have us remove drywall and mount the light, outlet boxes to the structure and make repairs to finished surfaces. 

This interpretation basically removes the use of an old work box from my arsenal of tools to earn a living as well as satisfy my customer’s needs. 

I would respectfully request that you review the interpretation and enforcement of this issue. 

Sincerely,

Michael W. Daniels, Jr.







Inspector’s response:

Sir,
I am sorry that you disagree with our decision however the code is clear on the support requirements for boxes installed in new construction and by definition this is an “old work” box one can only assume it pertains to existing conditions. Therefore if the walls are open and the new boxes can be supported then they should be according to article 314.
Thank You


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

Now that is funny.

You need to go over that guys head


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## Mike D (Sep 16, 2008)

This was the chief electrical inspector I was emailing.
Amazing.


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## Barjack (Mar 28, 2010)

Those guys need to be thrown screaming from a helicopter.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

That email was just posted at mike holt about 30 minutes ago


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Install drywall on other side of wall. It is now finished, as well as providing physical protection for otherwise exposed NM.

*Problem solved.*



Next?


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## Barjack (Mar 28, 2010)

> I am sorry that you disagree with our decision


I bet you are.



> however the code is clear on the support requirements for boxes installed in new construction


I agree, but it doesn't say it is a "new construction" but a "new work" box, which only means the walls are open, not a broad description of the entire project.



> and by definition this is an “old work” box one can only assume it pertains to existing conditions.


We install all boxes according to existing conditions.



> Therefore if the walls are open and the new boxes can be supported then they should be according to article 314.


They WILL be, ONLY I WON'T KNOW EXACTLY WHERE YET UNTIL AFTER SHEETROCK IS UP!

314.23(C) specifically outlines how a box is to be supported in a finished surface, which is what we will have after sheetrock.

This AHJ just doesn't want to do his job. I've had inspectors make notes on my rough inspections in these scenarios, to remind them to check bath vanities, pendants, stairwell lights, etc.

You could even suggest an "after drywall rough" inspection so he can inspect the box before you install the fixture.

I've had this argument before, especially with new inspectors.

This is the type of BS that leads to unpermitted work.


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

I would just put the wire in nail ons, pop them off after inspection and cut in old works later.

That inspector is an assclown


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## Barjack (Mar 28, 2010)

Hey, Dennis, could you provide a link to the listing that says drywall is not designed to have anything supported from it?

I only ask because if this is true, it would almost make illegal the use of any old work box, not to mention any fastening hardware that comes with anything that is designed to be wall or ceiling mounted.


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## Barjack (Mar 28, 2010)

robnj772 said:


> I would just put the wire in nail ons, pop them off after inspection and cut in old works later.
> 
> That inspector is an assclown


Only they also tend to be vindictive assclowns who will demand to see the box behind the fixture at the final, fail it, and demand "proper" support.


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## NacBooster29 (Oct 25, 2010)

Any piece of equiptment Hung with toggle bolts....
Sounds like a real piece of work.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Well there is a solution. Tell the HO or builder you need box locations upon rough, and stop dawdling about fixture choices or locations, or you will have to rough in box(es) NOW where YOU think they should go, and they can pay to change them later if they can't decide now.


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## Barjack (Mar 28, 2010)

IslandGuy said:


> Well there is a solution. Tell the HO or builder you need box locations upon rough, and stop dawdling about fixture choices or locations, or you will have to rough in box(es) NOW where YOU think they should go, and they can pay to change them later if they can't decide now.


I would always prefer to install a new work box. 

It just isn't always feasible.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Totally ridiculous this inspector. I'm glad I'm not you.


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## Mike D (Sep 16, 2008)

The same inspector has an interesting view on grounded conductors at switch boxes.
I will post that email tomorrow.


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## Mike D (Sep 16, 2008)

Am I to assume this would apply to recess cans?


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

480sparky said:


> I just leave large loops in the wall. Usually, the HO has no freakin' clue what they want for lights at this stage of building. Here's a single vanity bath. One light, or two? Above the mirror, or next to it? Then, when the HO finally decides what they want (which won't be until well after the rock is up!), it's just a matter of putting in some old-work boxes.


That's an ingenious idea with the wire loops in each stud bay


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

I was hoping the update would include a story about the inspector falling into a foundation hole and left for dead.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

IslandGuy said:


> Well there is a solution. Tell the HO or builder you need box locations upon rough, and stop dawdling about fixture choices or locations, or you will have to rough in box(es) NOW where YOU think they should go, and they can pay to change them later if they can't decide now.


Ask the state to back up their decision 

Forward the particular desire to the licensing board as a state amendment

They'll either have to accept or decline it



~CS~


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## Mike D (Sep 16, 2008)

Some traffic on grounded conductors at switch boxes:


My email

I have recently been turned down for an electrical rough in inspection for not having a grounded conductor at all switch boxes.
I wanted to clarify the interpretation of 404.2(C) exception 2.

“Cable assemblies for switches controlling lighting loads enter the box through a framing cavity that is open at the top or bottom on the same floor level, OR through a wall, floor or ceiling that is unfinished on one side.” ( 2011 NEC)

In the particular job I was turned down for there is attic access for all the second floor switches and open crawl-space/ unfinished basement access for all of the first floor switches.

I have also attached a Mike Holt video on the article requirements and the new changes for 2014 that are coming. We use the Mike Holt stuff for training purposes and haven’t had any problems in the past.





 

I was told, by my inspector, that because there was a bottom or top plate that would have to be drilled to add the grounded conductor, that it would not meet exception number 2.
This is where I am not following the interpretation. 

Jumping ahead to the revised 2014 code cycle, it states that

“(2)- Where the box enclosing the switch is accessible for the installation of an additional or replacement cable without removing finish materials.”

I read this as, if it can be added later without damage (easily fished) it is not required.

I would like to ensure that my technicians are properly trained in the requirements of the NEC and stay updated with all changes, as they occur.

Your insight would be beneficial for us.

Thank you for your time. 


His response:

Good Morning,
Currently we still use the 2011 NEC and it still says it must be an open cavity above therefore the inspectors interpretation is correct and You will need to put the grounded conductor in the switch as required. I have copied the plan reviewer Mr. Thompson in case he has a different opinion however I don’t believe he will
Thanks



Ummm, ok......


My second email, which led into the "Old Work" box issue:

I am using the 2011 code book as well.
I am reading the second exception as :

“Cable assemblies for switches controlling lighting loads enter the box through a framing cavity that is open at the top or bottom on the same floor level, OR through a wall, floor or ceiling that is unfinished on one side.” ( 2011 NEC)

I am referring to the OR through a wall, floor or ceiling that is unfinished on one side.
In my understanding, the attic and unfinished basement or crawl space meets that language.

While I have you, I would like to ask one more question.

It is common practice for us to rough in for bathroom lights with a loop of wire through the wall and have the sheetrock installed. We then use a hole saw on the trim to cut the light-box hole to the exact location required by the customer. (most of the time, the fixtures have not been speced at the time of rough in). 

We also do this method for kitchen island lights as well as wall sconces. Once again, this is done to ensure we get the light placements exactly to the customer specifications. 

Once the hole is cut, we then typically go in with the properly rated type of box for the installation. Could be a pancake box on stud, cut- in box or a fan brace type box. 

We have been turned down on some of our jobs, yet passed on others. 
We always have the correct box installed for the fixture at the trim. 

Could I get some clarification on what we should be doing to meet the city of --------- requirements?

If we end up having to place boxes for rough in inspection, our only option would be to install a “placeholder box”, and more than likely remove “placeholder box” and permanently install light boxes for installation at the time of the trim.
For example: The kitchen island ends up being shifted a few inches from what the plans show. We would then have to relocate a box and repair drywall. 


Thank you for your time.

His response:

Unfortunately we don’t see the interpretation that way at this time the back of the wall is not open therefore the grounded conductor will be required, as far as the box question art. 314 requires that the box be supported to the structural framing and the “old work box” is exactly that made for old work not new just because we call them cut ins doesn’t mean new work
 


Amazing stuff.
I would like to add that I typically pay around $1200 for the electrical permits in this municipality for a single family home. I typically pay (for the same project) about $100 to $300 anywhere else.

Fun, Fun.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

You're being effectively stonewalled Mike

~CS~


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## Mike D (Sep 16, 2008)

LOL, I about spit out my coffee!


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## Hippie (May 12, 2011)

that is ridiculous, i do it this way all the time and never had it questioned. how else are you supposed to get the fixtures positioned right? ive never seen a residential plan with bathroom wall layouts and elevations already planned out, and there always seems to be some issue with plumbing or countertops or mirrors or something that causes things to shift


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

Mike,

I'm a bit confused by this inspection departments interpretations (as it seems most of us are).

*314.23 Supports.* Enclosures within the scope of this article shall be supported in accordance with *one or more* of the provisions in 314.23(A) through (H).

And one of the provisions is:

*(C) Mounting in Finished Surfaces*. An enclosure mounted in a finished surface shall be rigidly secured thereto by clamps, anchors, or fittings identified for the application.

I am still missing where the NEC or the UL White Book states anything about "old work", "new work", "work you wish you had", "work you wish you never got", etc...

I would ask how the installation of a cut-in/old work box in "new construction" becomes more hazardous than a cut-in/old work box installed in "existing construction".

Pete


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## Mike D (Sep 16, 2008)

What is scary is that both the field inspector and the Chief are teaching code classes.


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## Mike D (Sep 16, 2008)

90.1(A)- Purpose
and 
90.1(C)- intention


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

Mike D said:


> What is scary is that both the field inspector and the Chief are teaching code classes.


If it were closer I would LOVE to attend one of their "offerings". I have a feeling I would have a field day with them (either that or they would show me just how stupid I really am).

Pete


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## jbfan (Jan 22, 2007)

chicken steve said:


> Ask the state to back up their decision
> 
> Forward the particular desire to the licensing board as a state amendment
> 
> ...


Unfortunately, we have no state agency to appeal to.
Inspections are set up by local jurisdictions.

I never had to go through what Mike is going through, so not sure where you would go from here.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

480sparky said:


> I just leave large loops in the wall. Usually, the HO has no freakin' clue what they want for lights at this stage of building. Here's a single vanity bath. One light, or two? Above the mirror, or next to it?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I have employed this technique many times , however it always seems to befuddle the vaquero's who hang the drywall even if I post signage (in Spanish no less!) who keep poking out the loops thru the drywall they hang thinking they are helping me.......... Eye yi yi.


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

macmikeman said:


> I have employed this technique many times , however it always seems to befuddle the vaquero's who hang the drywall even if I post signage (in Spanish no less!) who keep poking out the loops thru the drywall they hang thinking they are helping me.......... Eye yi yi.



Ha I have done the same thing.

Yesterday I wore an I C E tee shirt to the job site that my buddy who is a cop got for me over the weekend.

Talk about uncomfortable looks from all the ......roflmao


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

macmikeman said:


> I have employed this technique many times , however it always seems to befuddle the vaquero's who hang the drywall even if I post signage (in Spanish no less!) who keep poking out the loops thru the drywall they hang thinking they are helping me.......... Eye yi yi.



They never learn.... Even when they have to come back and patch the holes they made. 

Oh well, it's their problem, not mine.


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