# So I got told I'm too expensive...



## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

I wouldn't give them a nickle back. Cheap ass customers suck. They want you to bid it so you come in under but if you make money on your "guess" they want it back. **** them, keep the money. Tell them next time they should hire you T&M if that's what they want.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Obviously, the customer has zip for business sense.

Do you think the cashier at WalMart makes $2200 hour simply because that's how much she rang up in an hour?


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## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

nitro71 said:


> I wouldn't give them a nickle back. Cheap ass customers suck. They want you to bid it so you come in under but if you make money on your "guess" they want it back. **** them, keep the money. Tell them next time they should hire you T&M if that's what they want.


I wish I had thought to ask if she would have given me more money had I spent two full days there. I just find it insulting that they assume it's not okay for me to "make" more money than they do. I'm just worried they call back for more work, because I don't much feel like dealing with them. I guess I'll just say I'm too busy.



480sparky said:


> Obviously, the customer has zip for business sense.
> 
> Do you think the cashier at WalMart makes $2200 hour simply because that's how much she rang up in an hour?


I tried to explain to her that I showed up with approximately $3000 in tools in a $25 000 pickup truck that burns $100+/gas a week. As well as invaluable amount of knowledge that allowed me to do the job safely and know what to use and how. She said that "none of that is her problem and I shouldn't pass that cost down to my clients". Well who the hell else is gona' pay for it?!


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

customers saying its too expensive...get used to it... some people have zero business sense..


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*not sure*

I haven't really had that happen after I did the job? Did you tell them $750 and they agreed. Then you did it ? 

Double edged sword. If you do nothing they might tell others not to use you (but so what), or say look. I'll split the difference with you and give you a $150 off break just to ease the peace. Then maybe they won't talk bad or worse report you on angie's list or bbb. 

I'm leaning towards F'em but for $150 that might keep them from putting a bad report on a forum so....? 

1 bad report could cost you thousands of dollars in lost revenue so I look at big picture even if your in the right.


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## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

Cletis said:


> I haven't really had that happen after I did the job? Did you tell them $750 and they agreed. Then you did it ?
> 
> Double edged sword. If you do nothing they might tell others not to use you (but so what), or say look. I'll split the difference with you and give you a $150 off break just to ease the peace. Then maybe they won't talk bad or worse report you on angie's list or bbb.
> 
> ...


Go nuts with BBB or Angie's, this was a side job. I do take pride in the work I do on the side, and I'd love a recommendation but I can't say I'm interested in working for these people again. They wouldn't recommend me as an electrician well I wouldn't recommend them as a client either. I've never had a complaint before, and I made about the same on this job as I do on all the others.


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

You gave the customer no perceived value for you work .


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## green light (Oct 12, 2011)

*Boo hoo*

I get told my rates are too high almost every day. The same people who sit there and tell me how imortant it is to keep business local, and expect support from the local community, and the next thing they tell me is they can hire a contractor from out of town for less money. Quite honeslty I have plenty of work without lowering my rates, and I dont NEED to work for some cheap SOB who may not pay and will most likely bitch about the price the whole time.:no:


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## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

Mr Rewire said:


> You gave the customer no perceived value for you work .


So what should I have done differently?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Cletis said:


> ............I'm leaning towards F'em but for $150 that might keep them from putting a bad report on a forum so....? ........


I wouldn't bother fearing a bad review. When you stay in business long enough, you WILL get them, no matter what you do. You could drop your prices for each and every customer that whines and cries, and you will still get bad reviews.


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## cdslotz (Jun 10, 2008)

I'd be pissed too if you told me you charged me for an estimate


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

jza said:


> So what should I have done differently?


Start with. "this is side work "


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## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

cdslotz said:


> I'd be pissed too if you told me you charged me for an estimate


Of course I "charged" for the estimate, and for all the estimates I do for work I don't get. It's all been worked into my very small overhead.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

People always complain about price. Your Canadian right? Try being from the states. Here, if you make a good wage, your greedy and have entitlement issues. OR, if you make a ****ty wage your lazy and need to work harder. :laughing: You need to let roll off your back. People like that can never truly be satisfied. Oh, and your a fool if you give them any money back.


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

The goal is to create an illusion of perceived value. 

Look at Bobby Trendy v.s. Martha Stewart v.s. Suzy Q (local)

Their rates are probably from $25/hr to $1,000/hr to tell you which color bedsheets to put on the bed. 

Make them think you are worth alot then you are worth alot!


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## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

Cletis said:


> The goal is to create an illusion of perceived value.
> 
> Look at Bobby Trendy v.s. Martha Stewart v.s. Suzy Q (local)
> 
> ...


I understand that, I'm asking what I could have done to make these people see value in what I did.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

*I'm* expensive? Try calling the Geek Squad!


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## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

It's funny because the work I was doing was to light up three paintings they purchased. I wonder how much they spent on the paintings, and I wonder if they called the artist and told him/her they were asking too much and how many hours of work went into the painting?

This truly is an example of perceived value. These people value paintings more than electrical work. To them I'm just another petty crook of a tradesman who "ripped them off" because I managed to make more an hour than they do.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

jza said:


> ..."How can you charge that much, even I don't make that much an hour!"....


 "Neither do I. Much of that cost goes right back into running my company effectively so I can stay in business."

-John


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

jza said:


> I understand that, I'm asking what I could have done to make these people see value in what I did.


You're properly trained, with licensing and insurance. You completed the job in a timely and orderly manner. You respected their property. You will be there for any warranty issues.

No?


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## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

Isn't the OP'er an apprentice? Low over head, no permit, no insurance, no business expenses.


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*nada*



jza said:


> I understand that, I'm asking what I could have done to make these people see value in what I did.


Probably nothing. They just looked at your hours worked plus actual cost of material and calculated what you should have made in their eyes. So, I'm guessing they think $15-$20 hr x 5 = $100 + $50 = $150 That's how those people think. If they only knew....talking they don't count 

F'em !


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## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

480sparky said:


> You're properly trained, with licensing and insurance. You completed the job in a timely and orderly manner. You respected their property. You will be there for any warranty issues.
> 
> No?


Well this was side work, so no insurance. The job was completely in very good time, and I showed up exactly when I said I would be there. I laid out drop sheets to protect their floors and furniture. I also passed the vacuum and made sure everything was clean before I left. I've never had a warranty "claim", but of course I warranty all my labor. They knew all this, and they still feel ripped off.



Cletis said:


> Probably nothing. They just looked at your hours worked plus actual cost of material and calculated what you should have made in their eyes. So, I'm guessing they think $15-$20 hr x 5 = $100 + $50 = $150 That's how those people think. If they only knew....talking they don't count
> 
> F'em !


They hardly even looked at the hours worked. They forgot 2-3 hours spent behind the scenes preparing and commuting.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Cletis said:


> Probably nothing. They just looked at your hours worked plus actual cost of material and calculated what you should have made in their eyes. So, I'm guessing they think $15-$20 hr x 5 = $100 + $50 = $150 That's how those people think. If they only knew....talking they don't count
> 
> F'em !


They probably have no friggin' clue what the actual cost of material is, let alone the cost of doing business.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

jza said:


> Well this was side work, so no insurance. The job was completely in very good time, and I showed up exactly when I said I would be there. I laid out drop sheets to protect their floors and furniture. I also passed the vacuum and made sure everything was clean before I left. I've never had a warranty "claim", but of course I warranty all my labor. They knew all this, and they still feel ripped off.


So, do they have the impression you're a 'real' contractor, or just some guy out to make a quick buck on the side? Are you Dr. Hibber or Dr. Nick?


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## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

480sparky said:


> So, do they have the impression you're a 'real' contractor, or just some guy out to make a quick buck on the side? Are you Dr. Hibber or Dr. Nick?


They know I work full time for a real contractor during the week, and do work on the side. What impression they have of me I do not know.


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## itsunclebill (Jan 16, 2007)

For years I've told people who asked for a better price "well, I told you $2200.00 was a good price. $2800.00 would be better, and $3200.00 would be best.

It's not your problem people don't understand you're doing more than paying yourself, and not your job to explain it to them. Give 'em a price and walk if they don't like it. I'll guarantee no matter how low you go some idiot will better your price.

Watch a show or two of Shipping Wars to see how stupidity works - there's an almost direct correlation between these guys and hack electricians.


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## mnelectrician (Dec 1, 2008)

Sounds like they have an arrogant mentality and even if you gave them money back they would still be mad.I wouldn't worry about what they think, some people are always mad no matter how much you charge.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

jza said:


> They know I work full time for a real contractor during the week, and do work on the side. What impression they have of me I do not know.



I can tell you: They have the impression you're a guy out to make a quick buck.


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## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

480sparky said:


> I can tell you: They have the impression you're a guy out to make a quick buck.


Sucks to be them I guess, they got me all wrong. 

I spent my Saturday covered in drywall dust, sawdust and black dust from their dirty ass old ceiling. Far from a quick and easy dollar, I worked my ass off and skipped lunch.


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## cdslotz (Jun 10, 2008)

jza said:


> They know I work full time for a real contractor during the week, and do work on the side. What impression they have of me I do not know.


You say you have small overhead, but you have a regular job. So you have zero overhead. Your travel time or estimating are expenses directly related to the job. No insurance, no taxes, no office, nothing.
This is what their perception is. This guy is doing this on the side, so he must be cheaper that a company with overhead. Why else would they call someone that has to commute to do their work instead of ABC Electric down the street?


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

cdslotz said:


> You say you have small overhead, but you have a regular job. So you have zero overhead. Your travel time or estimating are expenses directly related to the job. No insurance, no taxes, no office, nothing.
> This is what their perception is. This guy is doing this on the side, so he must be cheaper that a company with overhead. Why else would they call someone that has to commute to do their work instead of ABC Electric down the street?


 
I think this explains it !!!


They expected to get a break. You gave them the estimate, and they accepted.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

I hate illegal tradesman


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

jza said:


> I understand that, I'm asking what I could have done to make these people see value in what I did.


Were you in a uniform? Did you put down floor runners ? Did you wear shoe covers? Were you clean shaven? Was your proposal written on a form with company letterhead? Is your work vehicle clean with your company name on it? Did you park in the drive or on the street? I can go on but this is a good start.


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## cdslotz (Jun 10, 2008)

Also, you said the scope changed. What fixtures or devices were added?
What was you final price?


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

jza said:


> They know I work full time for a real contractor during the week, and do work on the side. What impression they have of me I do not know.


This is your largest obstacle they do not see you as being in business .


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

jza said:


> Sucks to be them I guess, they got me all wrong......


Yet you seemed to have failed to correct them.


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## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

cdslotz said:


> You say you have small overhead, but you have a regular job. So you have zero overhead. Your travel time or estimating are expenses directly related to the job. No insurance, no taxes, no office, nothing.
> This is what their perception is. This guy is doing this on the side, so he must be cheaper that a company with overhead. Why else would they call someone that has to commute to do their work instead of ABC Electric down the street?


They did get a break. I was way cheaper than a contractor.



Mr Rewire said:


> Were you in a uniform?


No. Clean shirt, work pants.



Mr Rewire said:


> Did you put down floor runners?


Yes.



Mr Rewire said:


> Did you wear shoe covers?


I took my shoes off.



Mr Rewire said:


> Were you clean shaven?


No.



Mr Rewire said:


> Was your proposal written on a form with company letterhead?


No.



cdslotz said:


> Also, you said the scope changed. What fixtures or devices were added?
> What was you final price?


They had me install 1 track light on an existing octagon that was originally to be moved a foot over and capped. They saved me from fishing one additional wire, would have been about an hours work. They then had me replace a dimmer. I took $50 off my original price. I suppose I could have taken more off, I also should have given them the new revised price before starting the work.


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

You do "side" work which translates in the customers mind as "cheap" work. This is the main reason they seek you out.


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## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

Mr Rewire said:


> You do "side" work which translates in the customers mind as "cheap" work. This is the main reason they seek you out.


Understood, however this isn't my first side job. I have quite a few very satisfied clients who have used me before and constantly recommend me.


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## michael3 (Mar 14, 2010)

There should be an Andrew's list.... the contractor gets to review the customer. Maybe?


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## parnellelectric (Dec 23, 2011)

We need side guys like you to handle those cheap a** customers. You got what you deserve. At least they paid you. Move on and maybe work on becomming legit.


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## JSpark (Nov 25, 2011)

What does your employer think of you doing side work that potentially could have been a job he was hired to do. Yet you used the skills you learned from your employer to take that money from his pocket. Money he uses to keep you employed when your fake contractor role runs of of steam?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

jza said:


> Understood, however this isn't my first side job. I have quite a few very satisfied clients who have used me before and constantly recommend me.


Trust me...... you will always have people like this. Fuggedabowdit.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Mr Rewire said:


> You gave the customer no perceived value for you work .


What are you talking about.. :blink::blink:

He gave the customer an estimate before doing the job.. that was the time to bitch, moan, and complain.. not after cutting him a check..


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## chris856 (Jun 12, 2009)

Someone who chooses to have an unlicesnsed stranger come into there home to do electrical work is usually either kind of crooked or cheap beyond reason and not someone I care to deal with. I don't have too much against people doing side work but I try to keep it to friends and family myself.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

cdslotz said:


> I'd be pissed too if you told me you charged me for an estimate


Even FREE estimates come with a price that is included in the cost of doing business.. even in Canada..


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## cdslotz (Jun 10, 2008)

jza said:


> Understood, however this isn't my first side job. I have quite a few very satisfied clients who have used me before and constantly recommend me.


Do you charge them $120/hr for doing work on the side?




> I finished the entire job in about 5 hours plus the hour I spent estimating it and the hour I spent gathering up material, I have about 7-8 hours into the job. Today the client calls me telling me they regret paying me, and that my price was too high. "How can you charge that much, even I don't make that much an hour!".


Estimate $750
Material ($100)
Discount ($50)

That leaves $600 for labor. They SEE you work 5 hrs, as you stated.
You walk out the door and they do the simple math 600/5=$120/hr.
ABC Electric down the street is $85.
You get a phone call.


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## JSpark (Nov 25, 2011)

What is with you people typically you jump all over a guy doing side work what is different here ?


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

480sparky said:


> They probably have no friggin' clue what the actual cost of material is, let alone the cost of doing business.


Not true.. they have HD in Canada also right?? :laughing:

Very easy to go talk to the "associate" and find out what materials are needed for installing light fixtures..


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

jza said:


> Sucks to be them I guess, they got me all wrong.
> 
> I spent my Saturday covered in drywall dust, sawdust and black dust from their dirty ass old ceiling. Far from a quick and easy dollar, I worked my ass off and skipped lunch.


Now stop crying.. skipped lunch.. give me a break.. :no:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> I hate illegal tradesman


Lets be fair about that.. many of us who are now in business started doing side work before doing it "legit".. most likely even you.. 

The only guy I know here who didn't is Brian John..


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## michael3 (Mar 14, 2010)

The company I used to work for changes (I wont drop any names) charges 145/hr and there is a service charge 95% of the time which was $65.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

slickvic277 said:


> People always complain about price. Your Canadian right? Try being from the states. Here, if you make a good wage, your greedy and have entitlement issues. OR, if you make a ****ty wage your lazy and need to work harder. :laughing: You need to let roll off your back. People like that can never truly be satisfied. Oh, and your a fool if you give them any money back.


HMMMMMMMMMMMM, thats what the union and occupiers say about successful businessmen. Maybe all parties are wrong?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

B4T said:


> Lets be fair about that.. many of us who are now in business started doing side work before doing it "legit".. most likely even you..
> 
> The only guy I know here who didn't is Brian John..


It is damn hard to do side work with test equipment cost, it was hard enough starting out and having to spend 100,000.00 before you can do basic work.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

brian john said:


> It is damn hard to do side work with test equipment cost, it was hard enough starting out and having to spend 100,000.00 before you can do basic work.


Cordless drill.. hand tools.. ladder.. $300.00

Trunk existing.. no charge.. :laughing:


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

JSpark said:


> What is with you people typically you jump all over a guy doing side work what is different here ?


we _earned_ our place in the service industry food chain, as such you siders are simply_ posers _

~CS~


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## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

JSpark said:


> What does your employer think of you doing side work that potentially could have been a job he was hired to do. Yet you used the skills you learned from your employer to take that money from his pocket. Money he uses to keep you employed when your fake contractor role runs of of steam?


My employer looks for commercial/industrial jobs. He's not into residential. He let's me use his account at the supplier to finance my side work actually. I love my boss, great guy. Good luck getting me to stop scabbing, all you'll get is me scabbing behind your back.



JSpark said:


> What is with you people typically you jump all over a guy doing side work what is different here ?


I was wondering the same thing.



cdslotz said:


> Estimate $750
> Material ($100)
> Discount ($50)
> 
> ...


That's exactly what they did, it's not uncommon for me to make $100/hour on a side job, why the hell else would I do side work if I didn't make it worth my time? 

If you count the time spent behind the scenes, it works out to about 600/8, so $75/hour. ABC Electric would have sent an electrician and an apprentice, so, $120 an hour around here.


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## JSpark (Nov 25, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> we _earned_ our place in the service industry food chain, as such you siders are simply_ posers _
> 
> ~CS~




I am agreeing with you what I was asking is why is no one ripping him a new one like typical when a side jobber posts


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

jza said:


> My employer looks for commercial/industrial jobs. He's not into residential. He let's me use his account at the supplier to finance my side work actually. I love my boss, great guy. Good luck getting me to stop scabbing, all you'll get is me scabbing behind your back.


 
I thought one time you posted you were a legitimate contractor.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

B4T said:


> Cordless drill.. hand tools.. ladder.. $300.00
> 
> Trunk existing.. no charge.. :laughing:


1-Ductor 3,500.00
3-Meggers 800.00
2-High current test set 8,000.00 and 14,000.00
1-Power quality equipment 18,000.00 per set up
1-IR Camera $62,000.00
1- Earth/Ground tester 3,200.00

Luckily I had all my own miscellaneous meters and clamp ons

Plus vans


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

yes i know JSpark

perhaps we've grown complacent, or perhaps we're just waiting it out until that ascii hoof is firmly imbeded eh?

~CS~


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## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> I thought one time you posted you were a legitimate contractor.


Well if I did it would still be posted on here wouldn't it? Get digging I guess, I don't recall ever posting that.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

mcclary's electrical said:


> I thought one time you posted you were a legitimate contractor.


 
_legit?_

like with parents that could _prove _they were married ....?

~CS~


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

jza said:


> Understood, however this isn't my first side job. I have quite a few very satisfied clients who have used me before and constantly recommend me.


But it is still "side work" and good and cheap is still " cheap" in the mind of the customer and your never getting past that.


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## parnellelectric (Dec 23, 2011)

JSpark said:


> I am agreeing with you what I was asking is why is no one ripping him a new one like typical when a side jobber posts


Most areas have **** roachs, they have there place I guess. You just have to continue to treat to keep them under control.


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

B4T said:


> What are you talking about.. :blink::blink:
> 
> He gave the customer an estimate before doing the job.. that was the time to bitch, moan, and complain.. not after cutting him a check..


If the customer has perceived value then bitching and moaning will never happen .


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## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

Mr Rewire said:


> If the customer has perceived value then bitching and moaning will never happen .


We get it.


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## crosport (Apr 4, 2010)

Why would you even mention you do side work on a public forum? Paying taxes on that side job income are we? I know for a fact the tax vultures use public websites to track down members of the underground economy.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

jza said:


> First time doing work with a new client, they wanted 3 new octagons installed, fixtures hung and 2 new switches. No attic access, cut holes and patchwork to be done by others. I came in at $750 with about $50-100 worth of material. Yesterday I went and the scope of work had changed, they had removed some stuff and added some more, I finished the entire job in about 5 hours plus the hour I spent estimating it and the hour I spent gathering up material, I have about 7-8 hours into the job. Today the client calls me telling me they regret paying me, and that my price was too high. "How can you charge that much, even I don't make that much an hour!".
> 
> The fixtures were a bitch to install, and it's side work so I made it worth my time. I may have made $20 or so more an hour than I usually do, because the job went very well. What should I have done? Offered money back? How do I deal with them calling me, for say a warranty repair, or more work? I can't say I really want to deal with these people again, but I don't know how to tell them off.


I feel no pity for you at all. Get a ****ing license, insurance, and a surety bond. Until then I hope the check bounces.


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## cdslotz (Jun 10, 2008)

jza said:


> My employer looks for commercial/industrial jobs. He's not into residential. He let's me use his account at the supplier to finance my side work actually. I love my boss, great guy. Good luck getting me to stop scabbing, all you'll get is me scabbing behind your back.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm not arguing what you think you're worth.
I'm pointing out why they got pissed. 
I wouldn't pay $120/hr for a Craigslister or a weekend trunk slammer either!


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

> I wouldn't pay $120/hr for a Craigslister


maybe they could start a union?

~CS~


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

jza said:


> We get it.


So now you understand why they didn't like paying a hack that much per hour


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*What?*

What did you do again exactly? I"m trying to flat rate it and see what I charged for it.


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## Archania (Mar 16, 2009)

It sucks they complained about it being so much. But, they did say OK, so who cares. I wouldn't give anything back to them. I work on 1.5+ million dollar houses to get ready to sell, and people say I'm too expensive for 1-$2000 worth of work. But the inspector that came in charging $500 for an hour or 2 is fine. Some people will always complain.
But, it is a side job and you don't have to deal with all the stuff contractors do. You probably should have been cheaper...


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## green light (Oct 12, 2011)

brian john said:


> 1-Ductor 3,500.00
> 3-Meggers 800.00
> 2-High current test set 8,000.00 and 14,000.00
> 1-Power quality equipment 18,000.00 per set up
> ...


 how about NETA costs? Last I looked it was 5k to get going. Are you a NETA recognized firm?


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

jza said:


> First time doing work with a new client, they wanted 3 new octagons installed, fixtures hung and 2 new switches. No attic access, cut holes and patchwork to be done by others. I came in at $750 with about $50-100 worth of material. Yesterday I went and the scope of work had changed, they had removed some stuff and added some more, I finished the entire job in about 5 hours plus the hour I spent estimating it and the hour I spent gathering up material, I have about 7-8 hours into the job. Today the client calls me telling me they regret paying me, and that my price was too high. "How can you charge that much, even I don't make that much an hour!".
> 
> The fixtures were a bitch to install, and it's side work so I made it worth my time. I may have made $20 or so more an hour than I usually do, because the job went very well. What should I have done? Offered money back? How do I deal with them calling me, for say a warranty repair, or more work? I can't say I really want to deal with these people again, but I don't know how to tell them off.





> *So I got told I'm too expensive...*


Congratulations you are learning to become a good business man..:thumbsup:




> "How can you charge that much, even I don't make that much an hour!"


Oh sorry !

Too bad you did not become an Electrician because if you did then you would make just as much as me...:laughing:



> How do I deal with them calling me, for say a warranty repair, or more work?


You have to honor your waranty otherwise you do not have to deal with them.

And if you do not like them then just jack up your prices till they say no way.


----------



## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

jza said:


> Understood, however this isn't my first side job. I have quite a few very satisfied clients who have used me before and constantly recommend me.



Why should business advice be given to someone doing side work?


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## chewy (May 9, 2010)

jza, you failed to befuddle them with smoke, mirrors and technical jargon. :laughing:


----------



## adroga (Mar 3, 2011)

Just wondering where the hostility for side jobbers come from?

Where I am most tradesmen do side jobs, and the ones that never did are the ones who took over a business from daddy.

I would rather see a sparkie make some cash on the side than have a complete hack do it, and I've seen done pretty bad ones.

Generally I would think these type of customers never would have paid for a contractor. 

And to you contractors that cuss and yell at sparkies that work for cash, calm down because I'm sure every business expense and write off isn't legit either. Like using a work van for personal stuff, or writing off your wife's gas as an expense, or paying fictional salaries to reduce profit... If you lost work to a so called trunk slammer maybe you're doing something wrong.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

adroga said:


> Just wondering where the hostility for side jobbers come from?..........


Usually due to the fact that they aren't licensed, bonded, insured, registered, etc......... _as required by law_.


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

Side jobbers, hacks and untrained individuals give legitimate contractors a bad name. They also weaken our trade.


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## adroga (Mar 3, 2011)

Do you ever drive above the speed limit? Do you ever not come to a compete stop at a stop sign? Ever change lanes and forget to signal? 

Breaking the law comes in many forms and I'm sure there isn't anyone perfect out there.

I'm sure every sparkie here knows a plumber, so I'm assuming the complainers will call a contractor and pay full price for a job at home instead of calling the buddy.


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

Unlicensed individuals doing work that requires a license, insurance or bond, IMO are no different than a common criminal stealing.


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## adroga (Mar 3, 2011)

Not at all the same thing.

Who is a side jobber stealing from?


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

adroga said:


> ............I'm sure every sparkie here knows a plumber, so I'm assuming the complainers will call a contractor and pay full price for a job at home instead of calling the buddy.



As long as the plumber is properly licensed, I'll call him.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

adroga said:


> ........Who is a side jobber stealing from?


Those who are operating their businesses legally.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

adroga said:


> Not at all the same thing.
> 
> Who is a side jobber stealing from?


Me!!! ...and every other legitimate contractor because while you were out at the hockey game and then the strip club afterwards, I was at the library studying for MONTHS so I would be prepared for the electrical examination. After I passed the exam I had to layout a few thousand dollars for insurance and tools and everything else. You on the other hand made beer money and you went to work wondering why your boss couldn't give you a dollar raise. Wake up and smell the coffee slacker.


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

Magnettica said:


> Me!!! ...and every other legitimate contractor because while you were out at the hockey game and then the strip club afterwards, I was at the library studying for MONTHS so I would be prepared for the electrical examination. After I passed the exam I had to layout a few thousand dollars for insurance and tools and everything else. You on the other hand made beer money and you went to work wondering why your boss couldn't give you a dollar raise. Wake up and smell the coffee slacker.



I couldn't agree more. Well said.:thumbsup:


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Fkin hilarious thread on many levels. :laughing:


----------



## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

crosport said:


> Why would you even mention you do side work on a public forum? Paying taxes on that side job income are we? I know for a fact the tax vultures use public websites to track down members of the underground economy.


Ya ya, they're "coming for me".



HARRY304E said:


> Congratulations you are learning to become a good business man..:thumbsup:
> 
> Oh sorry !
> 
> ...


Good advice. I just feel like they should have just kept their mouths shut and not called me again. Why are we trying to "work this out" in preparation for future work, if you aren't happy with my price, just call someone else next time. No need to let me know that you think I'm not worth what I'm charging.



chewy said:


> jza, you failed to befuddle them with smoke, mirrors and technical jargon. :laughing:


lol



Magnettica said:


> Me!!! ...and every other legitimate contractor because while you were out at the hockey game and then the strip club afterwards, I was at the library studying for MONTHS so I would be prepared for the electrical examination. After I passed the exam I had to layout a few thousand dollars for insurance and tools and everything else. You on the other hand made beer money and you went to work wondering why your boss couldn't give you a dollar raise. Wake up and smell the coffee slacker.


And I'm going to keep scabbing.


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## Wireman191 (Aug 28, 2011)

For a side job that sounds very pricey. Why they hired a guy that is not licensed and insured to do work on there house for the same price as a legit contractor, That blows my mind.
On a side note when people ask me to do stuff for them I give a very high price so they say no thanks. If someone said yes, I honestly don't know if I would say I cant.:laughing:


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

jza said:


> "How can you charge that much, even I don't make that much an hour!".
> .


So what does how much they make have anything to do with the job?

I dont think $80 to $100 an hour is too much to ask for someone that can burn your house down while you sleep.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

adroga said:


> Do you ever drive above the speed limit?


Does my speeding have anything to do with you getting your driver's license?



adroga said:


> Do you ever not come to a compete stop at a stop sign?


Does my failure to stop cause you to involuntarily drive legally and force you to come to a complete stop every time?



adroga said:


> Ever change lanes and forget to signal?


Does my failure to signal affect what you do in your vehicle?


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

jza said:


> And I'm going to keep scabbing.




Karma's a bitch.


----------



## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> Karma's a bitch.


Ya, what's gona' happened?

You act like I'm doing something terrible, you've scabbed too dude, you know you have.


----------



## Wireman191 (Aug 28, 2011)

jza said:


> Ya, what's gona' happened?
> 
> You act like I'm doing something terrible, you've scabbed too dude, you know you have.


 You have been around long enough to know what this thread was going to come to, and the hate you would receive from it.:laughing:


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

I hate him for stealing from me


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## parnellelectric (Dec 23, 2011)

This subject never goes well. And it never will! You guys that want advise on how to better run your illegal side work can not expect us to help. I did a little side work in my day. But it was almost always for family or friends for very little if any pay. Hell, I still do some work for family and friends almost free.... beer... food... is good pay.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

480sparky said:


> I wouldn't bother fearing a bad review. When you stay in business long enough, you WILL get them, no matter what you do. You could drop your prices for each and every customer that whines and cries, and you will still get bad reviews.


plus you will wind up with cheap customers that always complain and won't let you make any money.


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## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

Wireman191 said:


> You have been around long enough to know what this thread was going to come to, and the hate you would receive from it.:laughing:


Oh for sure hahahah, all things considered I'm surprised it didn't turn into one big anti-scab thread.


----------



## emahler (Oct 13, 2011)

jrannis said:


> So what does how much they make have anything to do with the job?
> 
> I dont think $80 to $100 an hour is too much to ask for someone that can burn your house down while you sleep.


it is when the guy you hire doesn't carry to insurance to repair/replace your house when it burns down...

if i'm understanding this thread, it reminds me of this story:

A CNN journalist in Jerusalem heard about an old Jewish man who had been praying at the Wailing Wall twice a day, everyday, for a long, long time.

So when she visited the Wall for a story, she had a colleague point the man out. She watched him pray and after about 45 minutes, when he turned to leave, she approached the man for an interview.

“I'm Rebecca Smith from CNN," she said. "Sir, how long have you been coming to the Wall and praying?"

"For about 60 years," he replied.

“Sixty years! That's amazing! What do you pray for?"

"I pray for peace between Christians, Jews, and Muslims. I pray for all the hatred to stop and I pray for all our children to grow up in safety and friendship."

"How do you feel after doing this for 60 years?" she asked.

"Like I've been talking to a ****in' wall.”


since you're all electricians, i'll explain that the wall is a metaphor for the guys doing side jobs...:laughing:


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## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

What a dumb anecdote/metaphor.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

jza said:


> What a dumb anecdote/metaphor.


So jza,

Are you licensed and insured?


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

hardworkingstiff said:


> So jza,
> 
> Are you licensed and insured?


:no::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


----------



## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

Everyone does sidework. Whether they do it for free, or for pay. I bet a lot of guys that are licensed and insured now started as cash only.


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## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

hardworkingstiff said:


> So jza,
> 
> Are you licensed and insured?


I guess you didn't read the thread.


----------



## ilikepez (Mar 24, 2011)

This is quite the entertaining thread. 

At 120 an hour I think you where ripping them off a bit jza. Considering you are paying no taxes or insurance.


----------



## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

jza said:


> Why would you ask that, I said this was a side job. ******.


******? Wow, touchy?

IMO, a side job is one you do in lieu of your regular job. Honest people do side jobs with proper licensing and insurance to protect both their customer and their family.

You do realize that one mistake can cost you everything you have, right? I don't know about the laws in your town, but down here in NC, you can be put in jail for doing what you are doing (not likely, but you can). 

Also, make a mistake and see what the attorney does. I hope for your sake you don't have personal experience with this, although a small part of me wishes you could have a scare that will straighten you out.

******? What you are doing is ********, as well as unethical.


----------



## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

jza said:


> They know I work full time for a real contractor during the week, and do work on the side. What impression they have of me I do not know.


The fact that they hired you instead of your boss could be a clue, were they trying to save money by hiring moonlighter? I'm not nescessarily critisizing the side work, but wonder if you may run in to a lot of these types?

But as others have said, you will sometimes find a customer that is impossible to please. And strangely, sometimes another electrician can work for same customer with no problems.


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## CanadianSparky (May 10, 2011)

I do side work. Sue me. And saying that the house is going to burn down give me a break. Any work I do on the side exceeds minimum code standards just as much a work I do for my company. I KNOW everything I do on the side is safe and sound.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

hardworkingstiff said:


> ******? Wow, touchy?


The posts are not the ones he wanted to hear.. some warm milk and a good night's sleep will make him feel better.. :thumbup:


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## CanadianSparky (May 10, 2011)

Like jza said all your contractors who are whining about him not being a legitimate contractor are hypocrits. I gaurantee almost all of you have "buddies" who you have met on the job to do work for your new kitchen reno or basement reno or fix your vehicle. All of these guys you pay cash and are not licensed insured etc etc. My boss does it.....other sub contractors I work with do it and friends that own there own contracting business do it. Get over yourselves.


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

CanadianSparky said:


> I do side work. Sue me. And saying that the house is going to burn down give me a break. Any work I do on the side exceeds minimum code standards just as much a work I do for my company. I KNOW everything I do on the side is safe and sound.


 So who pays if you are in the attic and step through the ceiling ? How fast will you sue the homeowners if you are hurt when you step through the ceiling?


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

CanadianSparky said:


> I do side work. Sue me. And saying that the house is going to burn down give me a break. Any work I do on the side exceeds minimum code standards just as much a work I do for my company. I KNOW everything I do on the side is safe and sound.


I'm sure your work is fine. 

Question, if a problem occurs after you have worked on a property, who's going to defend you in court? (It doesn't matter that you say it's not something you worked on, you are going to court).

You guys who are working without insurance just don't understand how easily you can be wiped out.


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## CanadianSparky (May 10, 2011)

Mr Rewire said:


> So who pays if you are in the attic and step through the ceiling ? How fast will you sue the homeowners if you are hurt when you step through the ceiling?


When that day comes I'll deal with it. I understand that things can screw up like that. It's life. I don't worry about the what-ifs.


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## CanadianSparky (May 10, 2011)

hardworkingstiff said:


> I'm sure your work is fine.
> 
> Question, if a problem occurs after you have worked on a property, who's going to defend you in court? (It doesn't matter that you say it's not something you worked on, you are going to court).
> 
> You guys who are working without insurance just don't understand how easily you can be wiped out.


Just as easily as it can wipe out a contractor. What you think that inusrance is your saving grace when something catastrophic happens? Give me a break


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

CanadianSparky said:


> Just as easily as it can wipe out a contractor. What you think that inusrance is your saving grace when something catastrophic happens? Give me a break


They can afford to pay a lot better than I can. They also will defend you in court. So, yes, insurance can save you.

Also, my guess is most of the contractors are Corporations or LLCs. The guys I'm talking about don't have any type of speed bump or insulation between a problem and their assets. But alas, probably most of the guys I'm talking about don't have enough assets to protect.


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

Most people who do side jobs aren't smart enough to run a business.


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## CanadianSparky (May 10, 2011)

Chris1971 said:


> Most people who do side jobs aren't smart enough to run a business.


I agree I sure am not and don't ever see myself being a business man. Atleast not in electrical. I don't even do much side work at all. Only for close family and friends and even then I try and shrug it off. I'm too busy in my personal life to even worry about making the "quick buck" on the side. I just find it funny that most of you guys are being hypocrits and don't even realize it.


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

Chris1971 said:


> Most people who do side jobs aren't smart enough to run a business.


I M O, the mods should close this thread, before the animosity spreads.

Really, who cares, if he wants to brag about doing unlicensed side work.


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## local134gt (Dec 24, 2008)

chicken steve said:


> maybe they could start a union?
> 
> ~CS~


 The union shop I work for doesn't even charge that much :laughing: They bill $99/hr for a JW and that's in Chicago


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*side jobbed*

I've actually never done a side job


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## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

ilikepez said:


> This is quite the entertaining thread.
> 
> At 120 an hour I think you where ripping them off a bit jza. Considering you are paying no taxes or insurance.


I didn't charge them $120/hour, I charged them $750, and it worked out to whatever it worked out too. If I only made $10/hour, I wouldn't expect more money from them. This goes both ways.



hardworkingstiff said:


> ******? Wow, touchy?
> 
> IMO, a side job is one you do in lieu of your regular job. Honest people do side jobs with proper licensing and insurance to protect both their customer and their family.
> 
> ...


Blah blah blah



readydave8 said:


> The fact that they hired you instead of your boss could be a clue, were they trying to save money by hiring moonlighter? I'm not nescessarily critisizing the side work, but wonder if you may run in to a lot of these types?
> 
> But as others have said, you will sometimes find a customer that is impossible to please. And strangely, sometimes another electrician can work for same customer with no problems.


You're probably right. I feel like me and this customer just don't mix.



CanadianSparky said:


> I do side work. Sue me. And saying that the house is going to burn down give me a break. Any work I do on the side exceeds minimum code standards just as much a work I do for my company. I KNOW everything I do on the side is safe and sound.


Exactly.



B4T said:


> The posts are not the ones he wanted to hear.. some warm milk and a good night's sleep will make him feel better.. :thumbup:


Shut up, hack.



oldtimer said:


> I M O, the mods should close this thread, before the animosity spreads.
> 
> Really, who cares, if he wants to brag about doing unlicensed side work.


Nobody is bragging, I'm just sayin'.


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

Cletis said:


> I've actually never done a side job


 Are you a bottom?:whistling2:


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

jza said:


> Offered money back?


Now I know you are nuts.


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## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

TOOL_5150 said:


> Now I know you are nuts.


hahahah


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

No side work for me either, I carry insurance because people sue, not because I do crappy work.


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## NWsparky (Jun 27, 2011)

I don't want to read 9 pages worth of replies - f*** that customer. They are cheapskates obviously if they want it done on the side. Don't give money back.


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## Clintmiljavac (Aug 18, 2011)

I can't even count on how many times I was told that. It's always home owners, and I never hear them complain to other trades!

Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


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## Elephante (Nov 16, 2011)

adroga said:


> Just wondering where the hostility for side jobbers come from?
> 
> Where I am most tradesmen do side jobs, and the ones that never did are the ones who took over a business from daddy.
> 
> ...


 speaking the truth brotha


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## Elephante (Nov 16, 2011)

:blinkamn i did a side job on my own house..Im such a moonlighter douche..


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## CDN EC (Jul 31, 2011)

Cost analysis:

Invoice: 750

less: materials: 75
gasoline: assume 20
phone: assume 5

Net 650

7.5 hrs spent on job, not incl. travel, assume 8 hours total. 

650/8 = $81.25 per hour

Accountant in a normal job wants to see overhead, expenses and profit:

81.25 x 60% = 48.75/hr for the company = $390.00
81.25 x 40% = 32.70/hr for jza = 261.60

In a real world situation, he made almost $33.00 an hour for all he did, and then he has the headache and a pain in the ass customer to go deal with. His company would be ok though, despite charging a little low (IMO)

As for the customer, he wanted Craigslist pricing, he got pro. 

Can't fault the guy for thinking like someone who'll outlast "Good Pipe Special Guy, 30 Yrs. Exp, only $50 an hour!"


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Elephante said:


> :blinkamn i did a side job on my own house..Im such a moonlighter douche..


Stop that...:laughing:


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## stuiec (Sep 25, 2010)

Elephante said:


> :blinkamn i did a side job on my own house..Im such a moonlighter douche..


 
I hope you got a few quotes first...


----------



## jordan_paul (Oct 4, 2011)

chewy said:


> jza, you failed to befuddle them with smoke, mirrors and technical jargon. :laughing:


Yepp, if you can't dazzle them wth brillance baffle them with bullchit eh?

But in all seriousness, I'm willing to bet most of you contractors started doing side work unless you took over daddys companies. If you guys didn't start doing side work before you opened your buisnesses you have bigger balls then me.


----------



## Davethewave (Jan 6, 2012)

There will always be people that want you to walk away with nothing. Business is expensive, material is expensive, insurance is expensive and electricians should be expensive. Pay up and if you don't like it get someone else next time. One word CHUMP


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## Elephante (Nov 16, 2011)

stuiec said:


> I hope you got a few quotes first...


 My dog gave me a quote but I dont feel comfortable with him holding a pair of pliers but I do think he is capable of pulling wire.And my wife.... forget about it.


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## SteveO. (Oct 17, 2011)

Chris1971 said:


> Most people who do side jobs aren't smart enough to run a business.


I doubt that. I'd consider myself pretty bright and all the electrical work I do is "side work". I have a full time job but do electrical work on the side and make good money doing it. To think the guys doing it full time are smarter or more "entitled" to the work is ridiculous. If I'm able to make more money than a full time guy doing the same job and still charge the customer less, that's not my problem to worry about. I'll be doing "side work" and making good money doing it until I'm no longer interested in easy money. :thumbsup:


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## electricguy (Mar 22, 2007)

SteveO. said:


> I doubt that. I'd consider myself pretty bright and all the electrical work I do is "side work". I have a full time job but do electrical work on the side and make good money doing it. To think the guys doing it full time are smarter or more "entitled" to the work is ridiculous. If I'm able to make more money than a full time guy doing the same job and still charge the customer less, that's not my problem to worry about. I'll be doing "side work" and making good money doing it until I'm no longer interested in easy money. :thumbsup:


This would be a good time for you to learn now why others are charging more , time to search for that over head list that i think 480sparky composed then you can make some more good easy money


----------



## kbatku (Oct 18, 2011)

Side jobs are risky, but we all do them from time to time. Me, only for people I know VERY well and understand the risks involved. Plus, I do it more as a favor & charge anywhere from 20 to 30 an hour. 
I'd mostly do it for free, but people are funny & feel like they need to pay me. Since I'm using my valuable off work time & making very little money and risking my arse, I do very, very little side work.


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

and your free to pursue them. like _anyone_ else kbat

just know that the folks who _solict_ siders are usually the same sorts who'll chase a quarter down the road & beat it into nickles

~CS~


----------



## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

SteveO. said:


> I doubt that. I'd consider myself pretty bright and all the electrical work I do is "side work". I have a full time job but do electrical work on the side and make good money doing it. To think the guys doing it full time are smarter or more "entitled" to the work is ridiculous. If I'm able to make more money than a full time guy doing the same job and still charge the customer less, that's not my problem to worry about. I'll be doing "side work" and making good money doing it until I'm no longer interested in easy money. :thumbsup:


Are you licensed and insured or doing it w/out protection?

Ya know, it just hit me. Doing EC work w/out proper licensing and insurance is sort of screwing a street girl w/out a condom. You just don't know what might happen.


----------



## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

chicken steve said:


> usually the same sorts who'll chase a quarter down the road & beat it into nickles


:laughing::laughing:
That's funny Steve, thanks.


----------



## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

SteveO. said:


> I doubt that. I'd consider myself pretty bright and all the electrical work I do is "side work". I have a full time job but do electrical work on the side and make good money doing it. To think the guys doing it full time are smarter or more "entitled" to the work is ridiculous. If I'm able to make more money than a full time guy doing the same job and still charge the customer less, that's not my problem to worry about. I'll be doing "side work" and making good money doing it until I'm no longer interested in easy money. :thumbsup:



You just proved my point. Most people doing side jobs aren't smart enough to run a business. You might be the best electrician in North America but, that doesn't equate to being business savvy.


----------



## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

As far as side work goes, I'm not going to get too upset about it. There's a lot of customers that think they are well trained consumers and can buy cheaper than anyone else, hard to make money from this type. So let the moonlighters do it so these super-shoppers will leave me alone and I can work for those willing to pay for value. Just to survive I need to charge average prices, meaning that 1/2 of electricians will charge less.

And serves customer right if he hired moonlighter and wound up paying full price, guess he wasn't so smart after all.


----------



## green light (Oct 12, 2011)

jordan_paul said:


> If you guys didn't start doing side work before you opened your buisnesses you have bigger balls then me.


Or bigger brains and common sense


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

CDN mini-EC said:


> Cost analysis:
> As for the customer, he wanted Craigslist pricing, he got pro.


But he didn't get a pro.He got an uninsured, probably unlicensed and illegal guy doing the work.
All he did is pay like it was a pro.


----------



## 3xdad (Jan 25, 2011)

Thread analysis: :whistling2:

First page or two: jza is a long time contributor to ET (respect), and as a whole, we (electricians) will side with the electrician over a cheap customer.

Contractors went after side jobbers.

Side jobbers then began calling contractors hypocrites.

Last couple pages: Contractors are regaining ground.

There is no question that the side jobbers on this site know the nuts and bolts of the electrical work they are doing.

My question is, what card do you hold? A journey. card? A contractors license? Both? None at all?

Post up and let us know.

An argument could be raised that self professed side jobbers drawing up contacts without a "contractors" license and posting on ET "Professional Electrical Contractors Forum" could in fact be the hypocrites.

Have any of the side jobbers been undercut in their own neighborhood by handymen?

Thanks.


----------



## SteveO. (Oct 17, 2011)

hardworkingstiff said:


> Are you licensed and insured or doing it w/out protection?
> 
> Ya know, it just hit me. Doing EC work w/out proper licensing and insurance is sort of screwing a street girl w/out a condom. You just don't know what might happen.


Why do guys always assume that electricians working on the side are unlicensed and uninsured? I'm a Master, a Safety Codes Officer, arc flash certified and hold another journeyman ticket in another trade. I also have several business licenses for the city I live in and other cities and districts around here. I also have insurance because for $800 a year, why not? I am a side jobber though.



Chris1971 said:


> You just proved my point. Most people doing side jobs aren't smart enough to run a business. You might be the best electrician in North America but, that doesn't equate to being business savvy.


How did I prove that? If I'm making more money per job then the other guy, and getting more work than I want to do in a year, I must be doing something right. :blink:


----------



## SteveO. (Oct 17, 2011)

electricguy said:


> This would be a good time for you to learn now why others are charging more , time to search for that over head list that i think 480sparky composed then you can make some more good easy money


I'm not really interested in what other guys are paying for expenses though. They can pay their bills how they'd like and I'll pay mine. My way works great for me. :thumbsup:


----------



## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

SteveO. said:


> Why do guys always assume that electricians working on the side are unlicensed and uninsured?


I did not assume, I actually asked if the OP was licensed/insured and was called ******** for not understanding it from the OP. 

Did you see my definition of "side work"? 

I have no problems with you doing side work with your license and insurance requirements being met. In fact I wish you luck. 

It's people that do side work w/out license and insurance that IMO are unethical.


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## SteveO. (Oct 17, 2011)

hardworkingstiff said:


> I did not assume, I actually asked if the OP was licensed/insured and was called ******** for not understanding it from the OP.
> 
> Did you see my definition of "side work"?
> 
> ...


I didn't mean to single you out, more just ask a general question about why everyone assumes that people working on the side aren't licensed. Nothing personal, just a general question and I don't know if I saw your definistion of side work. Spent the last 30 hours at the hospital and may have missed something. :laughing:


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## yrman (Jun 12, 2011)

Big John said:


> "Neither do I. Much of that cost goes right back into running my company effectively so I can stay in business."
> 
> -John


Bingo.

your price was not high. people who dont have a clue complain no matter what. next time they can hire a cheap handyman then pay again to have a pro come and fix the mess.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

I lost a new house to a side jobber(T&M job, so all about price per hour) The owner told me after, that he waited forever because the guy had to work during the week at his day job. Then he got nailed for travel because the guy was 90 miles away. Side jobber's primary concern is his day job, not the side job.


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## yrman (Jun 12, 2011)

readydave8 said:


> As far as side work goes, I'm not going to get too upset about it. There's a lot of customers that think they are well trained consumers and can buy cheaper than anyone else, hard to make money from this type. So let the moonlighters do it so these super-shoppers will leave me alone and I can work for those willing to pay for value. Just to survive I need to charge average prices, meaning that 1/2 of electricians will charge less.
> 
> And serves customer right if he hired moonlighter and wound up paying full price, guess he wasn't so smart after all.


So far one of my favorite replys


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## yrman (Jun 12, 2011)

yrman said:


> Bingo.
> 
> your price was not high. people who dont have a clue complain no matter what. next time they can hire a cheap handyman then pay again to have a pro come and fix the mess.


oops...Not too high for a legitimate business. I do have to agree that people who are hiring someone working " on the side" do that specifically because they dont want to pay what a real business would need to charge. They are only hiring you to do their job on the side because they are cheap and expect you to be too. Everyone wants to have their cake and eat it too.

Sounds like a match made in heaven. Especially after reading some of op's replys.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

SteveO. said:


> I don't know if I saw your definistion of side work.





hardworkingstiff said:


> IMO, a side job is one you do in lieu of your regular job. Honest people do side jobs with proper licensing and insurance to protect both their customer and their family.


Just for you Steve, since you seem honest and sincere.


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## SteveO. (Oct 17, 2011)

hardworkingstiff said:


> Just for you Steve, since you seem honest and sincere.


Ah, missed that but I agree with you 100%. I do side work in addition to my regular job, although I often consider going full time by myself. I find the hands on time the most satisfying part of the trade. If I didn't have to worry about the billing and paperwork, I'd probably do it.


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## Amish Electrician (Jan 2, 2010)

Drop the 'sidework' issue .... we've discussed that in other places, and the point raised by the OP is relevant to us all.

He discussed the scope of the job beforehand, quoted a price, and was hired. The scope changed, but he honored his quote. Customer paid, then later groused. 

What could anyone have done that would have satisfied the customer? 

We've all had those moments. I remeber one job, where I estimated a price 'near $1000.' When I presented the bill, the customer said 'I didn't know it would be so much!' I collected -maybe- $100 over the materials costs on that job ... but I was 'expensive.'

Right or wrong, you fail if the customer isn't smiling as they write the check. Your work may be technically perfect, but you have failed as a businessman. I somehow failed in that customers' eyes .... and until I figure out where I went wrong, I shall have very limited commercial success.


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## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

I have a question, for the actual business owners on here. If you quote a job at say, $20 000, legitimate job that was up for open tender, you're the winning bid. You start the job and the client tells you to "never mind" say $2000 worth of work, do you give them a $2000 credit? What if you quote a small residential job at say, $1000? Same deal, the customers tells you to they no longer need something done, saving you maybe $200 worth of work. Do you give the customer a $200 credit?


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## di11igaf (Jan 1, 2012)

Amish Electrician said:


> Drop the 'sidework' issue .... we've discussed that in other places, and the point raised by the OP is relevant to us all.
> 
> He discussed the scope of the job beforehand, quoted a price, and was hired. The scope changed, but he honored his quote. Customer paid, then later groused.
> 
> ...


That's one good thing about SIDE work, when the customer says 'i didn't know it was gonna be that much, I can't pay,' I can say- 'OK, I'll just go rip all the work out I just did, free of charge', without having to worry about those 'legit' business ethics.


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## caseyelectric (Oct 19, 2008)

Let them gripe all they want as long as they pay me. There needs to be something in place to make sure they do pay after the work is done. I dont see where youhave failed as a business person, somebody is always gonna gripe about something. I think it sucks there is nothing to make sure they pay for work that has been done-no legal course.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

jza said:


> I have a question, for the actual business owners on here. If you quote a job at say, $20 000, legitimate job that was up for open tender, you're the winning bid. You start the job and the client tells you to "never mind" say $2000 worth of work, do you give them a $2000 credit? What if you quote a small residential job at say, $1000? Same deal, the customers tells you to they no longer need something done, saving you maybe $200 worth of work. Do you give the customer a $200 credit?


Do you charge them extra for extra work? I do, and if the scope of work is reduced, the price is reduced. Now, being honest, if the scope of work drops, let's say 10%, I might only credit 9%, just saying.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

caseyelectric said:


> Let them gripe all they want as long as they pay me. There needs to be something in place to make sure they do pay after the work is done. I dont see where youhave failed as a business person, somebody is always gonna gripe about something. I think it sucks there is nothing to make sure they pay for work that has been done-no legal course.


He did fail as a business person, because he is not in business. Also, the work was not done legally, so the customer has every right to not pay him. Savvy customers know that a contract with an unlicensed contractor is toilet paper. Hopefully the op's next side job will get him to do a few thousand dollars worth of work, then refuse to pay. That would be perfectly legal, and would serve the op right.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

mcclary's electrical said:


> He did fail as a business person, because he is not in business. Also, the work was not done legally, so the customer has every right to not pay him. Savvy customers know that a contract with an unlicensed contractor is toilet paper. Hopefully the op's next side job will get him to do a few thousand dollars worth of work, then refuse to pay. That would be perfectly legal, and would serve the op right.


I'm out of "thanks" right now, so Jerry, I'll just say THANKS, :laughing:

You are so right, the savvy homeowner really can screw an unlicensed worker.


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## caseyelectric (Oct 19, 2008)

mcclary's electrical said:


> He did fail as a business person, because he is not in business. Also, the work was not done legally, so the customer has every right to not pay him. Savvy customers know that a contract with an unlicensed contractor is toilet paper. Hopefully the op's next side job will get him to do a few thousand dollars worth of work, then refuse to pay. That would be perfectly legal, and would serve the op right.


That was in response to Amish post, if i understood it right he said that he had failed because he had a unhappy customer. I was also tryin to stay away from the illegit business issue. even though i once did it, I too dislike it now. Was not comfortable with it and quit till I became legal. The customer that uses a illegit jobber is also to blame as well! They are like a pawn shop. they supply a market for the illegit jobber!


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

So it looks like I am the only guy here who did side work before going into business full time..   

I will say (10) Hail Mary's for my sins and I hope it will make me a better person.. 

I will wear this as a reminder of my lapse in judgement..


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

I do "side work" all the time. I do so much of it, I call it a "job".:laughing:

But seriously, I will admit that I did do some side work when I was employed by others. I don't really think all of the guys lamenting on it didn't. But I also realized that I would always just be small potatoes, finishing a basement here, adding a can light there. So I got licensed and insured and took on bigger jobs.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

Cletis said:


> I've actually never done a side job


Well, of course not. You're not a real electrician.:no:


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## CanadianSparky (May 10, 2011)

I have a question. Obviously no one will answer truthfully but here goes. How many of you "legit" business owners have done a job that was cash with no permits taken out for the job? I honestly don't see a difference? But hey maybe in your weird world you do.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

CanadianSparky said:


> I have a question. Obviously no one will answer truthfully but here goes. How many of you "legit" business owners have done a job that was cash with no permits taken out for the job? I honestly don't see a difference? But hey maybe in your weird world you do.



Cash is perfectly legal. In fact, I am obligated (up to a point) to accept cash if that's what's tendered.

Permits are not always required.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> Today the client calls me telling me they regret paying me, and that my price was too high.


Simply ask "Was my quote higher than anyone else's?"


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## 1joeyj (Nov 21, 2011)

To bad the customer of the OP didn't turn him in for breaking the law by not being properly licensed. If I were the homeowner, I wouldn't hesitate doing that.


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## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> He did fail as a business person, because he is not in business. Also, the work was not done legally, so the customer has every right to not pay him. Savvy customers know that a contract with an unlicensed contractor is toilet paper. Hopefully the op's next side job will get him to do a few thousand dollars worth of work, then refuse to pay. That would be perfectly legal, and would serve the op right.


How could I fail as a business person if I'm not in business? That's an oxymoron are you're just a regular moron.

I hope you also don't get paid for your next job.

You've done scab work too, you hypocrite. 



1joeyj said:


> To bad the customer of the OP didn't turn him in for breaking the law by not being properly licensed. If I were the homeowner, I wouldn't hesitate doing that.


They'd get in **** too. In Ontario it's illegal to knowingly hire an improperly licensed "contractor". Also, who are they going to call, the trade police? What are they going to do, come lift prints off of the boxes and light fixtures? Maybe recover some of my hair and get a DNA match?


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

Clearly the OP lacks basic business skills. Doesn't know how to close the deal and leave having a happy satisfied customer.


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## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

Chris1971 said:


> Clearly the OP lacks basic business skills. Doesn't know how to close the deal and leave having a happy satisfied customer.


Clearly you lack reading skills. I've closed numerous deals and have a lot of happy repeat clients.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

jza said:


> Clearly you lack reading skills. I've closed numerous deals and have a lot of happy repeat clients.


Maybe you clearly lack comprehension skills. Nine pages of "These people exist", "Don't worry about it", "Move on", "It happens", etc.

Are you now claiming you could somehow turn your 99.99999999% track record into 100%?


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

jza said:


> How could I fail as a business person if I'm not in business? That's an oxymoron are you're just a regular moron.
> 
> I hope you also don't get paid for your next job.
> 
> ...


 

Nope, I never did ANY illegal work. I was working full time with 15 men working under me. I obtained my business license, contractors license, and master electrician license. I THEN , and ONLY then started doing my own work. I had customers and inspectors calling my office while I was working for somebody else. My boss asked me was I moonlighting. I told him yes. Once I had enough work that I couldn't do both jobs, I quit my full time job. Just because you're a common criminal, doesn't mean everybody did it that way.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Chris1971 said:


> Clearly the OP lacks basic business skills. Doesn't know how to close the deal and leave having a happy satisfied customer.


 
Not to mention a bad attitude


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## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Maybe you clearly lack comprehension skills. Nine pages of "These people exist", "Don't worry about it", "Move on", "It happens", etc.
> 
> Are you now claiming you could somehow turn your 99.99999999% track record into 100%?


I know and I appreciate the positive feedback. I've given up on this client and I've learned to expect them in the future.



mcfaggy's electrical said:


> Nope, I never did ANY illegal work. I was working full time with 15 men working under me. I obtained my business license, contractors license, and master electrician license. I THEN , and ONLY then started doing my own work. I had customers and inspectors calling my office while I was working for somebody else. My boss asked me was I moonlighting. I told him yes. Once I had enough work that I couldn't do both jobs, I quit my full time job. Just because you're a common criminal, doesn't mean everybody did it that way.



Oh okay, well you're lying. Most did do it this way.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

jizinass said:


> I know and I appreciate the positive feedback. I've given up on this client and I've learned to expect them in the future.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
:whistling2:


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

Bump.....:laughing:


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

I haven't seen much cash the past four years but in the past, I wouldn't think twice about tearing up a cash invoice and stuffing the cash in my mattress. I used to regularly get an envelope with a few hundred, maybe even a couple thousand dollars in it. Now I have _maybe_ a couple thousand dollars stashed.

If I'm paying taxes on over $1,000,000 a year, I can skim a few measly bucks for softball bats, music gear and lap dances. **** the man.


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

We need an fCk you button.:thumbsup:


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Chris1971 said:


> Bump.....:laughing:


 
You bumped this?


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

220/221 said:


> If I'm paying taxes on over $1,000,000 a year, I can skim a few measly bucks for softball bats, music gear and lap dances. **** the man.


My brothers an IRS auditor agent.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

And...there's now way in hell you can make everybody happy. I learned that a LONG time ago. I have a high percentage but 100% is out of reach. Some people are just impossible.


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## caseyelectric (Oct 19, 2008)

He was prob very happy with the price he paid till he talked to a hack and told him what he paid at which the hack laughed at him and told him that you had ripped him off he could have done it cheaper!


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

220/221 said:


> I haven't seen much cash the past four years but in the past, I wouldn't think twice about tearing up a cash invoice and stuffing the cash in my mattress. I used to regularly get an envelope with a few hundred, maybe even a couple thousand dollars in it. Now I have _maybe_ a couple thousand dollars stashed.
> 
> If I'm paying taxes on over $1,000,000 a year, I can skim a few measly bucks for softball bats, music gear and lap dances. **** the man.


Ever hear the phrase.. _"pay me in cash and no sales tax.."_.. 

But the guys here claim every little dime to the man.. just remember that.. same as NEVER doing side work while working for someone..

This is the land of perfect people.. who knew.. :thumbup::laughing:


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## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

I think McFairy's Electrical is the only dude on here who would ever lie and deny doing a side job. Someone should make a thread/poll about this.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

jza said:


> I think McFairy's Electrical is the only dude on here who would ever lie and deny doing a side job. Someone should make a thread/poll about this.


He is full of himself.. what do you expect from this loud mouth..


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## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

He should take that 18v Milwaukee Portaband out of his puckered hole.

He pulls permits when doing work for his mother and grandmother apparently.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

220/221 said:


> If I'm paying taxes on over $1,000,000 a year, I can skim a few measly bucks for softball bats, music gear and lap dances. **** the man.


If I'm paying taxes on over $1 million a year, I'm not working too long before I sell the business or just quit working. I'm a simple man, and in about 4-5 years I figure I could save about a million dollars in cash and that would do me just fine.

Just curious, are you saying you've paid taxes on over $1 million dollars in a year?


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## parnellelectric (Dec 23, 2011)

jza said:


> He should take that 18v Milwaukee Portaband out of his puckered hole.
> 
> He pulls permits when doing work for his mother and grandmother apparently.


I pulled a permit at my mothers house last year....


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

B4T said:


> Ever hear the phrase.. _"pay me in cash and no sales tax.."_..
> 
> But the guys here claim every little dime to the man.. just remember that.. same as NEVER doing side work while working for someone..
> 
> This is the land of perfect people.. who knew.. :thumbup::laughing:


It does make me chuckle. I work for the family business, so I haven't done any side work, though I am starting to think about it for customers who hate my old man and love me. Must be my charming personality. :laughing:

For all the electricians I know, the brunt of them who didn't inherit the family business moonlighted, and probably 30% pull permits. Maybe NH is just different, but for the un-permitted work I have seen done and can neither confirm nor deny having participated in myself, the holier-than-thou mentality sure makes me chuckle. 

But, before you get all high fiving, I have no problems installing SE cable either.


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## sparkytitan (Nov 6, 2011)

Lmao. This is a funny thread I just enjoyed the first5 pages then:.......... So f*** the man all you cry babies contractors saying you never did side work. I have a full time job and I do plenty of side work I have about 20+ customers. I stay busy with side work and I'm insured. I give my customers options hourly rate or bid. Most of them want hourly. Never complaint always happy and I get a lot of referrals from them. I provide quality work and do it right with a one year warranty. If its $2k or less cash no issues anything more I tax it and I claim it. I pull permits when I have to but that's as far as I go with it. Bitching over $750 u guys need to let jza alone and be real.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Going_Commando said:


> But, before you get all high fiving, I have no problems installing SE cable either.


Good to see they taught you common sense up there.. :thumbup:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Going_Commando said:


> It does make me chuckle. I work for the family business, so I haven't done any side work, though I am starting to think about it for customers who hate my old man and love me. Must be my charming personality. :laughing:
> 
> For all the electricians I know, the brunt of them who didn't inherit the family business moonlighted, and probably 30% pull permits. Maybe NH is just different, but for the un-permitted work I have seen done and can neither confirm nor deny having participated in myself, the holier-than-thou mentality sure makes me chuckle.
> 
> But, before you get all high fiving, I have no problems installing SE cable either.





> I have no problems installing SE cable either.


 that's just wrong...:laughing:


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

Chris1971 said:


> My brothers an IRS auditor agent.


 
I'll buy him a lap dance :laughing:




> If I'm paying taxes on over $1 million a year, I'm not working too long before I sell the business or just quit working. I'm a simple man, and in about 4-5 years I figure I could save about a million dollars in cash and that would do me just fine.
> 
> Just curious, are you saying you've paid taxes on over $1 million dollars in a year?


 
Ever try to sell a small contracting business?


And, I'm talking gross dollars. Running a legitimate business means that everybody and his uncle has their hand in your pocket. If I ran it *my way* I'd be claiming losses and hiding cash. I'm not afraid of the law. 

**** them. If they lock me up, they will have to house me, feed me and take care of my medical expenses and it would be a net loss. They may be ruthless but they can do simple math :laughing:


Unfortunately there are other people's lives at stake here so I can't run a pirate company.....right now.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

What's SE cable? :whistling2:


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

*Its really quite simple*

Quote it. 

When they Pee and moan- get a check.

Next time. Price in the peeing and moaning. + 20%

If this is 'Side work'. You don't need it.

SO YOU SHOULD CHARGE MORE THAN THE LEGIT GUY. :thumbup::thumbup::thumbsup:

Realize: Perception, IS reality.

You are doing 'Side work' Therefore you work for less.

You are actually helping the other guys.

It aint rocket science!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Most people that will hire a person doing 'SIDE WORK'.

Have not priced out the job. "It's a deal" 

Give back/ them NOTHING.

But.................. Be prepared if things go south.

Have insurance, etc.

(DYERS-LURKERS- I hope your reading).

Many hear have invested a great deal,personally and financially to be in business. 

Just as you have.:whistling2:


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

B4T said:


> He is full of himself.. what do you expect from this loud mouth..



McClary is one of the more intelligent members on this forum.


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

220/221 said:


> I'll buy him a lap dance :laughing:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



thats what 'They want'. Then YOU NEED THEM.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Chris1971 said:


> McClary is one of the more intelligent members on this forum.


That coming from you doesn't exactly put him in a better light.. but thanks for playing.. :laughing:


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

I can honestly say I have never charged for side work. Either it's free for a family member or a really really good friend. I have no idea why someone would even want to. I did very very little.


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

B4T said:


> That coming from you doesn't exactly put him in a better light.. but thanks for playing.. :laughing:


19,112 posts from you and we're still waiting for an intelligent posting.:whistling2::laughing:


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## Acadian9 (Jun 6, 2009)

I worked with a guy who's had his Master's License for a few years now but still does side jobs without permits and the like. Does that make him a hack?


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Chris1971 said:


> 19,112 posts from you and we're still waiting for an intelligent posting.:whistling2::laughing:


From the man with 3,325 :blink::laughing: posts..:whistling2:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Acadian9 said:


> I worked with a guy who's had his Master's License for a few years now but still does side jobs without permits and the like. Does that make him a hack?


Permits?:blink::laughing:


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

B4T said:


> That coming from you doesn't exactly put him in a better light.. but thanks for playing.. :laughing:



Actually, Harry and B4T are the smartest members on this forum.:001_huh::laughing::laughing:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Chris1971 said:


> Actually, Harry and B4T are the smartest members on this forum.:001_huh::laughing::laughing:


You too..:laughing:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Chris1971 said:


> 19,112 posts from you and we're still waiting for an intelligent posting.:whistling2::laughing:


That was a lot of hard work racking up all those posts and I only got banned once.. :thumbup:


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

B4T said:


> That was a lot of hard work racking up all those posts and I only got banned once.. :thumbup:



That must of been after a hard days work,you were not on your game.:thumbsup:


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

B4T said:


> That was a lot of hard work racking up all those posts and I only got banned once.. :thumbup:



Why were you banned?


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