# Commander, Sylvania & Federal Pioneer panels



## ashmtl (Nov 25, 2021)

I keep hearing about those panels being bashed by inspectors (most of them have only a remote knowledge of electricity) saying "They are not CSA approved anymore" and must be replaced. Before someone makes a declaration like this I would like to see the test results and statistics of which panels or breakers were tested, what was the batch number, the serial number range or any other identifying information. 
I think, before anyone says "This panel must be changed", that person must test the breakers first and then tell that they are dangerous.
Also, a professional electrician must give a choice (or solution) to change the whole panel or only the bad breakers?
I would like to hear from electricians with knowledge and experience of testing those breakers that are "DANGEROUS", not their gut feeling or guessing.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Test a breaker? How? Nobody’s going to send a crummy old breaker to a proper test lab for testing, especially one that costs eight dollars fresh and new. 

Most electrical contractors will base a decision on experience and very few will try to scare a customer into a panel change. A homeowner always has the option to get different opinions. Homeowners, however, will pay big money on flooring, plumbing fixtures and countertops and ignore the electrical. Nobody throws a party to brag about their new electrical panel.

Thank you for filling out your profile.


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## wcord (Jan 23, 2011)

There is NO CEC requirement to change out those obsolete panels. At least in MB.
Breakers for Sylvania, Commander, ITE Blueline, Federal, Bulldog are expensive and in some cases no longer available. We can not install new AFCI breakers in Federal, but can replace any existing which require so. Other brands don't even have AFCIs but there are workarounds to enable us to add to these.
Some of the Federal breakers had a recall many years ago and while Federal has the worst reputation of not tripping on overloads, I have found occasional breakers, of every manufacturer, which do not trip.

The small residential type breakers don't have serial numbers and AFAIK, don't have batch codes.

Personally, I wouldn't recommend changing a panel unless there was physical damage or a major number of additional circuits. The cost of some of these orphans can be exorbitant.

I realize as an engineer, you are looking for definitive answers, however there isn't a one answer covers all scenario.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

The is a lot of evidence on Federal Pacific but I had not heard about Federal Pioneer. Federal Pacific is the US version of Pioneer but I didn't know they were suspect


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## ashmtl (Nov 25, 2021)

wcord said:


> There is NO CEC requirement to change out those obsolete panels. At least in MB.
> Breakers for Sylvania, Commander, ITE Blueline, Federal, Bulldog are expensive and in some cases no longer available. We can not install new AFCI breakers in Federal, but can replace any existing which require so. Other brands don't even have AFCIs but there are workarounds to enable us to add to these.
> Some of the Federal breakers had a recall many years ago and while Federal has the worst reputation of not tripping on overloads, I have found occasional breakers, of every manufacturer, which do not trip.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your answer. I agree with what you say. The reason I put the question out this way is that the building inspectors scare the new homeowners and say they must replace the panel. I am an immigrant in Canada and might not be familiar with some stuff here, but from what I have seen here in Montreal scared me. Wires in the panels that are going across from one corner to another diagonally, main feeding cable insulation almost cut by the panel edge, connection box with wires bringing power from two different breakers...I have heard that QBH breakers fit the commander panel (haven't checked myself). Wouldn't it be easier to replace faulty (or even all) breakers instead of replacing the whole panel. When the inspector says Commander panels (breakers) are no more CSA approved, I say but the one installed 15 years ago was approved. Maybe the resent ones are not good because they are made in China?


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## ashmtl (Nov 25, 2021)

99cents said:


> Test a breaker? How? Nobody’s going to send a crummy old breaker to a proper test lab for testing, especially one that costs eight dollars fresh and new.
> 
> Most electrical contractors will base a decision on experience and very few will try to scare a customer into a panel change. A homeowner always has the option to get different opinions. Homeowners, however, will pay big money on flooring, plumbing fixtures and countertops and ignore the electrical. Nobody throws a party to brag about their new electrical panel.
> 
> Thank you for filling out your profile.


Yes, the properly installed panel is more important to me than the nice kitchen sink. My wife is a real estate broker and every inspector who saw a Commander panel told her this must be changed. There are many ways to test the breakers (not from Canadian experience, I personally used electric motor with a brake and amperemeter) without sending to a lab, but I agree that $8 breaker is not worth the move.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Here is the memo from Eaton on replacement breakers in Canada. It can be easy to replace breakers. The difficulty with some older panels (Westinghouse Nova Line for example) is that the wiring space was very limited. You can be guaranteed that, if there was any DIY work done, it will be a mess. Even if they were only touched by legitimate electricians, if the breaker spaces are near capacity, it’s difficult to avoid a mess. New panels have much more space to work with.



https://www.eaton.com/content/dam/eaton/products/electrical-circuit-protection/circuit-breakers/residential-circuit-breakers/eaton-brand-circuit-breakers-vintage-loadcentres-sales-aids-sa3103sk-ca.pdf


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

A home inspector is a person who knows very little about a lot of things. He’s there to satisfy the bank so they will hand over money. It doesn’t mean he knows what he’s talking about.


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## Viggmundir (Sep 13, 2019)

99cents said:


> Here is the memo from Eaton on replacement breakers in Canada. It can be easy to replace breakers. The difficulty with some older panels (Westinghouse Nova Line for example) is that the wiring space was very limited. You can be guaranteed that, if there was any DIY work done, it will be a mess. Even if they were only touched by legitimate electricians, if the breaker spaces are near capacity, it’s difficult to avoid a mess. New panels have much more space to work with.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.eaton.com/content/dam/eaton/products/electrical-circuit-protection/circuit-breakers/residential-circuit-breakers/eaton-brand-circuit-breakers-vintage-loadcentres-sales-aids-sa3103sk-ca.pdf


That's a nice chart! 
Thanks


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## Viggmundir (Sep 13, 2019)

ashmtl said:


> Thank you for your answer. I agree with what you say. The reason I put the question out this way is that the building inspectors scare the new homeowners and say they must replace the panel. I am an immigrant in Canada and might not be familiar with some stuff here, but from what I have seen here in Montreal scared me. Wires in the panels that are going across from one corner to another diagonally, main feeding cable insulation almost cut by the panel edge, connection box with wires bringing power from two different breakers...I have heard that QBH breakers fit the commander panel (haven't checked myself). Wouldn't it be easier to replace faulty (or even all) breakers instead of replacing the whole panel. When the inspector says Commander panels (breakers) are no more CSA approved, I say but the one installed 15 years ago was approved. Maybe the resent ones are not good because they are made in China?


There is a big difference between condemning the panel as a whole, and condemning the wiring in that panel. Old panels can still be in decent shape electrically. It's not just old panels that have improper wiring practices.


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## ashmtl (Nov 25, 2021)

ashmtl said:


> Thank you for your answer. I agree with what you say. The reason I put the question out this way is that the building inspectors scare the new homeowners and say they must replace the panel. I am an immigrant in Canada and might not be familiar with some stuff here, but from what I have seen here in Montreal scared me. Wires in the panels that are going across from one corner to another diagonally, main feeding cable insulation almost cut by the panel edge, connection box with wires bringing power from two different breakers...I have heard that QBH breakers fit the commander panel (haven't checked myself). Wouldn't it be easier to replace faulty (or even all) breakers instead of replacing the whole panel. When the inspector says Commander panels (breakers) are no more CSA approved, I say but the one installed 15 years ago was approved. Maybe the resent ones are not good because they are made in China?


Correction, not QBH, BQL2100


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## NoBot (Oct 12, 2019)

In my area, Pittsburgh, PA., home insurance companies like State Farm will not insure a house with Federal Pacific Pushmatic or Stab-Loc.
The city of Pittsburgh and most inspectors in the surrounding area will not pass those panels.
That's all I need to know, testing is a non issue.


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## ashmtl (Nov 25, 2021)

NoBot said:


> In my area, Pittsburgh, PA., home insurance companies like State Farm will not insure a house with Federal Pacific Pushmatic or Stab-Loc.
> The city of Pittsburgh and most inspectors in the surrounding area will not pass those panels.
> That's all I need to know, testing is a non issue.


It is worst here in Quebec, but do you agree that it is not fair to the homeowners who have those panels installed and working well? Specially ones that had the breakers replaced to the conforming types?


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## NoBot (Oct 12, 2019)

ashmtl said:


> It is worst here in Quebec, but do you agree that it is not fair to the homeowners who have those panels installed and working well? Specially ones that had the breakers replaced to the conforming types?


Yes, and expensive. I have seen Pushmatic that would not trip even when hot and neutral were wire nutted together. Some nut, not me, tried it on a job once., almost caught the place on fire.


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## ashmtl (Nov 25, 2021)

NoBot said:


> Yes, and expensive. I have seen Pushmatic that would not trip even when hot and neutral were wire nutted together. Some nut, not me, tried it on a job once., almost caught the place on fire.


I check the temperature of my breakers regularly with electronic thermometer. So far had no change between ambient and breaker temperatures for more then 0.7 C° on small loads (15A) and 1.5 C° on big loads (30-100 A). I do not think the breaker just decides to burn one day. If it is defective, it must show higher temperature difference under the load, unless the defect is not bad contacts, but just a bad production. I agree that if the contacts are cooked, that breaker will not trip under any circumstance. But if the temperatures under the load are not high, then in my opinion those should be OK. But then again, I am not the insurance company owner.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Dennis Alwon said:


> The is a lot of evidence on Federal Pacific but I had not heard about Federal Pioneer. Federal Pacific is the US version of Pioneer but I didn't know they were suspect


define a lot. you mean the panel or the breakers or a specific line within the brand?


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## sparky1998 (Apr 30, 2020)

My POV is that these panels have known issues with them, not saying all breakers are defective but at the end of the day spending the 1300 or so to swap it out for a new panel board is worth the money. Because it’s a lot cheaper than replacing everything in your house 🏠


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## ashmtl (Nov 25, 2021)

sparky1998 said:


> My POV is that these panels have known issues with them, not saying all breakers are defective but at the end of the day spending the 1300 or so to swap it out for a new panel board is worth the money. Because it’s a lot cheaper than replacing everything in your house 🏠


A new 200A panel cost is about $600 that comes with 10 15A breakers and 1 of each 30A and 40A. The replacement breakers cost for the same amount of breaker set that comes with the new panel is $500 (prices taken from Home Depot). To replace all breakers in a 200A panel will take about 2 hours max, if one knows what he is doing. To replace a panel will take about 6 hours. So which way is cheaper? Not mentioning that many people can replace their breakers themselves (not that I recommend doing so).


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

Since you're in Quebec, the gestapo there have laws that prevent you from working on electrical.

So yer kinda SOL buddy.

I only glanced over this thread, but is there a question in here somewhere ?


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## ashmtl (Nov 25, 2021)

emtnut said:


> Since you're in Quebec, the gestapo there have laws that prevent you from working on electrical.
> 
> So yer kinda SOL buddy.
> 
> I only glanced over this thread, but is there a question in here somewhere ?


The initial question was what is the right thing to do:
1. Replace the panel
2. Replace all breaker
3. Test and replace the faulty ones
4. Hire a lawyer and fight insurance companies
5. Fight with the home inspector that makes a declaration that "This is a Commander panel and must be replaced".

I am a retired Electrical Engineer and have hard time taking blunt declarations.


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

ashmtl said:


> The initial question was what is the right thing to do:
> 1. Replace the panel
> 2. Replace all breaker
> 3. Test and replace the faulty ones
> ...


I've only ever heard of insurance companies refusing to insure property if it was AL wiring, and sometimes fused panels.
A quick way around this is to just find another insurance company.

The panels you listed in the OP are fine (assuming everything is in good shape).
Some breakers have recalls, but that is true for all kinds of panels.

Home Inspectors aren't qualified to say a panel should be changed. Generally in their report, they just point out a possible problem, and recommend having a LEC evaluate.

So to answer your question.
1. Replacing the panel would work.
2. No !
3. No !
4. a new panel is cheaper than a Lawyer, you could find another insurance company.
5. You could ask Home Inspector for "written" documentation of his claim. Make sure you call him an idiot too, we all do


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

ashmtl said:


> The initial question was what is the right thing to do:
> 1. Replace the panel
> 2. Replace all breaker
> 3. Test and replace the faulty ones
> ...


Do what the customer wants while maintaining the code. The end.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

6. Replace the home inspector.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

99cents said:


> 6. Replace the home inspector.


Bingo


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## ashmtl (Nov 25, 2021)

99cents said:


> 6. Replace the home inspector.


It is the buyer who choses the inspector and those guys can break a perfect sale by scaring the buyer. My wife gets 1 out 3 sales screwed up because of those panels.
I am afraid we will soon see "Brown shirts" on the streets here in Quebec!


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

ashmtl said:


> It is the buyer who choses the inspector and those guys can break a perfect sale by scaring the buyer. My wife gets 1 out 3 sales screwed up because of those panels.
> I am afraid we will soon see "Brown shirts" on the streets here in Quebec!


Your wife needs tradesmen in her back pocket. The cost of a service call from a legitimate EC could save a sale. She should have an electrician, plumber, HVAC contractor and GC all saved in her phone.


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

Generally on a sale, deficiencies like that don't stop the sale. It's just a bargaining tool for the buyers.

$ 2 - 3k repair doesn't impact a half million dollar sale.

With a reputable LEC as @99cents said, could put the buyers at ease.


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## ashmtl (Nov 25, 2021)

emtnut said:


> Generally on a sale, deficiencies like that don't stop the sale. It's just a bargaining tool for the buyers.
> 
> $ 2 - 3k repair doesn't impact a half million dollar sale.
> 
> With a reputable LEC as @99cents said, could put the buyers at ease.


Yes, we all know the costs. I am just angry that someone that has not much electric knowledge can declare things, plus others that have no experience at all follow. And this creates the situation when people are forced to do redundant work and spend money when it is not really needed.
You ask the seller of a $700K house to go down for 3K. You will see what he will say ;-)


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## 205490 (Jun 23, 2020)

The best place for FPE, Zinsco, XO, Fuse panels is the dumpster.


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## Mobius87 (May 20, 2019)

emtnut said:


> Generally on a sale, deficiencies like that don't stop the sale. It's just a bargaining tool for the buyers.
> 
> $ 2 - 3k repair doesn't impact a half million dollar sale.
> 
> With a reputable LEC as @99cents said, could put the buyers at ease.


Oh yes they do. People are mortgaged and in debt up to their neck. They qualify for the mortgage, but have no cash reserves to use for maintenance or repair. And the seller wants every last cent out of the property.

I've had four calls in the past 2 months from realtors I know:

"Can you come replace the aluminum wiring in this home that the home inspector found. We lost a sale because of it, and want to have it taken care of before the next showing."

I show up to look, and find no aluminum wiring. Each time it was either the tinned copper service entrance cable, or the tinned copper factory installed 'bus' conductors in older panels. I had to track down the home inspector and educate him so he would stop wasting everyone's time.

I have another client who lost a sale on an installation that I did, and the sellers were forced to find a new insurance company. I upgraded the service and electrical panel from 60A to 100A as is required by insurance companies here, but I used aluminum service conductors because of the raging copper prices. The buyer's home inspector comes around and he sees and reports aluminum (without context). The buyers ask their insurance company about it, and the insurance company says no aluminum at all, so they drop their offer. It happened to be the same insurance company for the sellers, and they sent a notice stating their coverage would be cancelled unless the aluminum is replaced.

The whole thing stems from ignorance and poor communication. I realize this isn't electrical panels, but that whole can of worms hasn't been opened here... yet. When/if it does, I can absolutely see it costing sales.

Hell, I've seen sales hanging on the brink for nothing more than a couple GFCI receptacles missing on an older house that was wired pre-GFCI. All because the wording of the home inspection report called the wiring unsafe and an electrical shock hazard. People don't read or think past the buzz words, and don't realize that a short phone call and $150 can get them fixed up.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

Start sending a bill for your time to the home inspector.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Mobius87 said:


> Oh yes they do. People are mortgaged and in debt up to their neck. They qualify for the mortgage, but have no cash reserves to use for maintenance or repair. And the seller wants every last cent out of the property.
> 
> I've had four calls in the past 2 months from realtors I know:
> 
> ...


That’s ridiculous. A handyman turned home inspector has no business opening the service box area of a panel.

The word “inspection” is misleading. It implies that they are something they are not. Even the inspection reports we get back from real inspectors are called “observations”. I realize it’s a legal thing but the word “inspection” implies it’s almost infallible.


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## SWDweller (Dec 9, 2020)

99cents said:


> Here is the memo from Eaton on replacement breakers in Canada. It can be easy to replace breakers. The difficulty with some older panels (Westinghouse Nova Line for example) is that the wiring space was very limited. You can be guaranteed that, if there was any DIY work done, it will be a mess. Even if they were only touched by legitimate electricians, if the breaker spaces are near capacity, it’s difficult to avoid a mess. New panels have much more space to work with.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.eaton.com/content/dam/eaton/products/electrical-circuit-protection/circuit-breakers/residential-circuit-breakers/eaton-brand-circuit-breakers-vintage-loadcentres-sales-aids-sa3103sk-ca.pdf



Link is part of the old YES book for Eaton. (your electrical solutions) Eaton produces a lot of breakers for frames and styles that they do not own. They made an QO replacement for a time. I got away from that part of the business, so I do not know if they are still available. 

They have a larger link to the industrial side of things. 


https://www.eaton.com/ecm/groups/public/@pub/


@electrical/documents/content/ca08100014e.pdf.

Sure comes in handy when you can keep the sheet metal and just upgrade the buckets like MCC's.


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

Mobius87 said:


> Oh yes they do. People are mortgaged and in debt up to their neck. They qualify for the mortgage, but have no cash reserves to use for maintenance or repair. *And the seller wants every last cent out of the property*.


That's the issue in bold.

Let's take the electrical out of this for a sec.
I'm buying a house, I have it inspected. Roof is 35 years old, furnace is 40 yrs old, all appliances are just about shot.
Deck in the back is rotten. Garage shed roof is ready to fall in ... all things the inspector found.
Seller wants every last cent ?? Lol, I'm off to the next house for sale.

I can see AL wiring. No one wants it, and hard to get insured. _Somebody has to replace it_ !

For the GFCI issues, and the 'older panels' , get a LEC to check it like 99 said.
I agree thou that sometimes these 'home inspectors' throw a wrench into things. But a good real estate agent can calm the buyers down by bringing in an actual tradesman.

Around here, home inspectors are probably going bankrupt ... houses are selling for over asking, no conditions, and often unseen. Hot market.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

youre all thinking small potatoes....its not the "inspector" thats the problem, its the system. change the system if youre so upset.


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## ashmtl (Nov 25, 2021)

Mobius87 said:


> Oh yes they do. People are mortgaged and in debt up to their neck. They qualify for the mortgage, but have no cash reserves to use for maintenance or repair. And the seller wants every last cent out of the property....
> I have another client who lost a sale on an installation that I did, and the sellers were forced to find a new insurance company. I upgraded the service and electrical panel from 60A to 100A as is required by insurance companies here, but I used aluminum service conductors because of the raging copper prices. The buyer's home inspector comes around and he sees and reports aluminum (without context). The buyers ask their insurance company about it, and the insurance company says no aluminum at all, so they drop their offer. It happened to be the same insurance company for the sellers, and they sent a notice stating their coverage would be cancelled unless the aluminum is replaced.
> 
> The whole thing stems from ignorance and poor communication. I realize this isn't electrical panels, but that whole can of worms hasn't been opened here... yet. When/if it does, I can absolutely see it costing sales.
> ...


And there is nothing wrong in using the aluminium bus conductors in electric panels. Even the new CSA approved panels come with aluminium bus conductors.
The problem is that it is very easy to become a home inspector and they are not responsible for whatever they say. Just read any of those reports and you will see that! Unless there is a law that the inspector is liable for his/her declarations, nothing will get to normal.
The buyers today do not realise the damage done by incompetent inspectors. They only know that they can afford that mortgage TODAY. If the bank interest goes up 0.5% they will go bankrupt. This is why they fight every $500 they have to put out their pocket.


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## ashmtl (Nov 25, 2021)

emtnut said:


> That's the issue in bold.
> 
> Let's take the electrical out of this for a sec.
> I'm buying a house, I have it inspected. Roof is 35 years old, furnace is 40 yrs old, all appliances are just about shot.
> ...


Yes, it is a crazy market and the only way to correct it is to STOP paying big bucks for crappy properties. People jump on crap for $450K and offer $50K-$100K over the asking price. After this they should put in another $250K to make it livable. On the same scale they try to negotiate down a $750K house price that was perfectly renovated and sound, ready to move in without even a fresh coat of paint! I stopped searching for a logic in all this.


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## ashmtl (Nov 25, 2021)

Majewski said:


> youre all thinking small potatoes....its not the "inspector" thats the problem, its the system. change the system if youre so upset.


I wish I could. Do you know how?


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## kbatku (Oct 18, 2011)

My experience with Sylvania/Zinsco is that "properly installed" they are not problematic. However many if not most of them are split buss panels and they give me the heeby jeebies because there is no way to turn off the upper part of the panel if there is an issue that needs addressed there. Also, no main breaker.

For the most part Sylvania/Zinsco breakers function OK. The problems arise when the breaker was installed improperly and the jaws spread on the breakers making for a poor contact with the buss bar. Over time this over heats the breaker and ruins it. If not caught in time it will also pit the buss and that spot will need to be abandoned. If there is no more breaker space available that becomes a problem

Federal Pacific panels

However

Tend to not trip at all, ever, even under egregious circumstances. I ALWAYS recommend a panel change when I come across one of these because frankly they are a fire hazard. Pushmatic and any other highly oddball obsolete brand will usually cause me to recommend a panel change, just because. One thing to keep in mind is resale and if the service panel will cause a conniption at time of sale. My outlook is that I am here now doing work and if you panel needs changed (or SHOULD be changed) I'm the guy for the job and you have no idea who they will get to do it sometime down the road. Plus it will probably be some kind of hurry up job and no telling what they will get charged.

Bottom line: Zinsco panels I will "recommend" be changed out, but not too vigorously

Federal panels I will emphatically recommend be changed out but there is no NEC requirement that they be replaced. Local rules may be different so check them out


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

ashmtl said:


> I wish I could. Do you know how?


Totally


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## Forge Boyz (Nov 7, 2014)

kbatku said:


> Bottom line: Zinsco panels I will "recommend" be changed out, but not too vigorously


They are not much different than FPE panels for not tripping. I rate them pretty much the same.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


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## 205490 (Jun 23, 2020)

They're all junk, outdated technology where women and children sleep. Jeopardizing a 
1.7 million dollar home for 5k in infrastructure improvement is a good example of why a "homeowner" is not qualified to make decisions.


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## Mobius87 (May 20, 2019)

99cents said:


> That’s ridiculous. A handyman turned home inspector has no business opening the service box area of a panel.
> 
> The word “inspection” is misleading. It implies that they are something they are not. Even the inspection reports we get back from real inspectors are called “observations”. I realize it’s a legal thing but the word “inspection” implies it’s almost infallible.


In all of the occasions he didn't open it, he took pictures somehow through the gaps in the cover.


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## Mobius87 (May 20, 2019)

ashmtl said:


> And there is nothing wrong in using the aluminium bus conductors in electric panels. Even the new CSA approved panels come with aluminium bus conductors.
> The problem is that it is very easy to become a home inspector and they are not responsible for whatever they say. Just read any of those reports and you will see that! Unless there is a law that the inspector is liable for his/her declarations, nothing will get to normal.
> The buyers today do not realise the damage done by incompetent inspectors. They only know that they can afford that mortgage TODAY. If the bank interest goes up 0.5% they will go bankrupt. This is why they fight every $500 they have to put out their pocket.


I realize there is nothing wrong with the aluminum. However, the insurance companies throw out these blanket statements like no aluminum and the agents, who have no construction or electrical experience, take it for gospel.


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## SWDweller (Dec 9, 2020)

kbatku said:


> My experience with Sylvania/Zinsco is that "properly installed" they are not problematic. However many if not most of them are split buss panels and they give me the heeby jeebies because there is no way to turn off the upper part of the panel if there is an issue that needs addressed there. Also, no main breaker.
> 
> For the most part Sylvania/Zinsco breakers function OK. The problems arise when the breaker was installed improperly and the jaws spread on the breakers making for a poor contact with the buss bar. Over time this over heats the breaker and ruins it. If not caught in time it will also pit the buss and that spot will need to be abandoned. If there is no more breaker space available that becomes a problem
> 
> ...


The stories are many and varied of these old electrical panels. I run into them usually on the million dollar older properties. I take a close look at them and as along as the breakers are not showing signs of heating and the bus is good. I leave them alone unless they are adding square feet or equipment. I got into an old one that all of the pool equipment had grown around the panel location, as well as a 5 foot high screen wall. Working clearances by the numbers which surprised me. By the time we had dug the new trench to the home and set the new 400 amp panel the owners and their neighbors had listened to the generator for several nights. Old man POCO did not care how many people were inconvenienced nor how slow their crew was. One neighbor lady brought me and crew fresh donuts the day she saw me shut off the generator and start removing the cables. We got there early and stayed late if it was going to help out. I did get several other jobs from the work we did. 
What I object to is when we the pros condemn said old dog panel it is not to pad the bill it is because it needs to be replaced for modernization. The people usually have 10000 dollar audio visual equipment and sometimes not even a grounded circuit.

I work with two home inspectors on residential services. Both tell the customer what I say is golden and that they should listen to me. Still there are the ones that will pay for the pie in the sky but do not understand/care that the service is not grounded.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

SWDweller said:


> The stories are many and varied of these old electrical panels. I run into them usually on the million dollar older properties. I take a close look at them and as along as the breakers are not showing signs of heating and the bus is good. I leave them alone unless they are adding square feet or equipment. I got into an old one that all of the pool equipment had grown around the panel location, as well as a 5 foot high screen wall. Working clearances by the numbers which surprised me. By the time we had dug the new trench to the home and set the new 400 amp panel the owners and their neighbors had listened to the generator for several nights. Old man POCO did not care how many people were inconvenienced nor how slow their crew was. One neighbor lady brought me and crew fresh donuts the day she saw me shut off the generator and start removing the cables. We got there early and stayed late if it was going to help out. I did get several other jobs from the work we did.
> What I object to is when we the pros condemn said old dog panel it is not to pad the bill it is because it needs to be replaced for modernization. The people usually have 10000 dollar audio visual equipment and sometimes not even a grounded circuit.
> 
> I work with two home inspectors on residential services. Both tell the customer what I say is golden and that they should listen to me. Still there are the ones that will pay for the pie in the sky but do not understand/care that the service is not grounded.


stories dont matter tho


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

Majewski said:


> stories dont matter tho


Is that so?


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## kbatku (Oct 18, 2011)

MY personal Federal Pacific story:

I purchased a house, had a FP panel (with a main!). I bought a CH panel and all the stuff I needed for a panel change, where it sat in a corner for ten years or so. Came home from vacation one day, walked through the door and a (Chinese) light fixture I'd hung a few year prior went into full on meltdown mode, blue arcing, shower of sparks, hissing and smoke. Lights stayed on, didn't flicker. Next day I changed out the panel.

Did an autopsy on the light fixture and poor design led to its failure. I rejiggered the survivors and they have worked fine to this day. Learned my lesson about procrastination though lol

I literally blew a screwdriver in half as an apprentice prying a "feed through" Zinsco breaker out of a panel. It was dramatic


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## Djea3 (Mar 8, 2019)

ashmtl said:


> I would like to hear from electricians with knowledge and experience of testing those breakers that are "DANGEROUS", not their gut feeling or guessing.


First off, if a product was approved and installed, unless it is recalled or unless and insurance company refuses to insure with the product not replaced then there is NO imperative to replace because of the model and manufacturer. A physical inspection by an electrician may prove that replacement is required on an individual panel by panel and breaker by breaker basis.

Insurance companies started the NEC. Insurance companies will and do cause changes to codes (external to the company) and requirements (internal to underwriting) that annually require billions of dollars to be spent to save possibly tens of millions in insurance losses.

That said, when a house is sold if there is an inspection requirement by underwriting and a list of non-insurable breakers and panels, then I think it is not such a bad idea to change them. The insurance companies have related losses directly to the existence of those products in service.

In Florida there is either a 3 point or 5 point inspection requirement at sale. If a person is purchasing for cash without insurance no requirement is made at sale. If that person wishes to later obtain insurance, an inspection will be required. If the roof has less than X years remaining service, it must be replaced. If the plumbing fails inspection it must be replaced. If the electrical system has certain components, they must be replaced....ONLY to meet the insurance underwriting. 

If one purchases with a mortgage there will be required insurance and those items must meet underwriting requirements BEFORE the closing can happen. On rare occasion, there can be contracts for the upgrade in writing before closing and insurance will accept this, as long as the completion date and payment schedule is agreed by all parties and the insurance.

I hope this resolves your questions.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Djea3 said:


> First off, if a product was approved and installed, unless it is recalled or unless and insurance company refuses to insure with the product not replaced then there is NO imperative to replace because of the model and manufacturer. A physical inspection by an electrician may prove that replacement is required on an individual panel by panel and breaker by breaker basis.
> 
> Insurance companies started the NEC. Insurance companies will and do cause changes to codes (external to the company) and requirements (internal to underwriting) that annually require billions of dollars to be spent to save possibly tens of millions in insurance losses.
> 
> ...


lol they cant "test" it


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## kbatku (Oct 18, 2011)

Like I said earlier, if a house has a FPE panel I strongly recommend that the homeowner replace it if we are doing any kind of extensive work. If it's a Svlvania/Zinsco I will suggest replacement but outside of active flames shooting from the panel I won't push it. I know these panels were legal when installed blah blah blah but as an ethical electrician who is trying to preserve my customer's lives as well as their pocket book I wouldn't be comfortable not informing my client of their options and what I am basing my recommendations on.


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