# Bare Ground



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Lateral, as in a service?:001_huh:


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*yeah*

Yeah. I thought that's what everyone called an underground service ?? Or is it just local slang? I'm trying to create the best case return path for a fault with the bare ground/neutral btw...It's in PVC conduit did I mention?


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## Restoration (Jan 12, 2012)

OK I'll bite. 

Wouldn't the best return path be a seperate EGC. Not sure what a bare ground neutral buys you ...:001_huh: Sizing soiunds about right.

I guess I am not clear on whether you are going from a Disco to something else..... or a service line from a _________ to the Disco.


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*..*

this would be from transformer, underground to main 400 amp disconnect


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## Restoration (Jan 12, 2012)

Cletis said:


> this would be from transformer, underground to main 400 amp disconnect


Guess I have never seen it done that way...... which means absolutely nothing. To lazy to drag out the code book. If it a utility transformer you might want to look at their specs. 

Where do you come up with these questions???? :laughing:


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

My ass


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Restoration said:


> OK I'll bite.
> 
> Wouldn't the best return path be a seperate EGC. Not sure what a bare ground neutral buys you ...:001_huh: Sizing soiunds about right.
> 
> I guess I am not clear on whether you are going from a Disco to something else..... or a service line from a _________ to the Disco.


 
EGC for a service?:blink:


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

I never said that. I said grounded conductor


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Cletis said:


> I never said that. I said grounded conductor


Huh?



Cletis said:


> I was going to run a parallel lateral of 400 amps. I was thinking of running 2 sets of 250 Thwn with a BARE *ground* (3/0 thwn neutral) in each 2" conduit to a 400 amp Disco.
> 
> How does this sound?


So now you're going to use a bare wire for the ground*ed*?


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

*III. Underground Service-Lateral Conductors
230.30 Insulation.​*​​​​Service-lateral conductors shall be insulated
for the applied voltage.​
_Exception: A grounded conductor shall be permitted to be
uninsulated as follows:
(1) Bare copper used in a raceway.
(2) Bare copper for direct burial where bare copper is
judged to be suitable for the soil conditions.
(3) Bare copper for direct burial without regard to soil
conditions where part of a cable assembly identified for
underground use.
(4) Aluminum or copper-clad aluminum without individual
insulation or covering where part of a cable assembly
identified for underground use in a raceway or for direct​burial.
_


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

Sure, why not?


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*G*

Geeez, your not going to make me have to explain this are you? I know there are some old timers who did this all the time???? Anyone? 

Come on, someone explain theory why it is better to put an uninsulated neutral with ungrounded conductor in service conduit underground? Someone please? 

Bulldog? Chris1971?:whistling2:


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## rexowner (Apr 12, 2008)

Here are your words:



Cletis said:


> ... a BARE ground (3/0 thwn neutral)...
> How does this sound?


It sounds poorly phrased. Where to you get BARE thwn?


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## Bbsound (Dec 16, 2011)

Cletis said:


> I was going to run a parallel lateral of 400 amps. I was thinking of running 2 sets of 250 Thwn with a BARE ground (3/0 thwn neutral) in each 2" conduit to a 400 amp Disco.
> 
> How does this sound?


My comments are based on your first post only as it only gets more confusing as the thread goes on.

Two sets of 250, 2x 3/0 neutral, and a bare ground sounds fine to me as long as your bare ground is a #3 and you have one in each pipe.

Is it a long run? is that why your are oversizing your ungrounded conductors?


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*numbers are off*

really don't need a 3/0. Probably 1/0 or 2/0 fine. Neutral load is low. Don't know yet 

How bout this http://www.generalcable.com/NR/rdonlyres/813CFAE6-B133-4E76-87A6-D1D499DFD95C/0/BrCpprCondGrndSS.pdf


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*...more*

more

Applications:
Stranded bare soft or annealed copper
conductors are recommended for use as
neutrals, in circuit ground connections as
well as machinery and equipment grounding
systems. Soft


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*Clue*

Clue

think about what would happen in a fault condition with a bare neutral v.s. an insulated neutral in a pvc conduit ????


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Restoration said:


> OK I'll bite.
> 
> Wouldn't the best return path be a seperate EGC. Not sure what a bare ground neutral buys you ...:001_huh: Sizing soiunds about right.
> 
> I guess I am not clear on whether you are going from a Disco to something else..... or a service line from a _________ to the Disco.


I am not sure that he intended to imply that the neutral be bare. Possibly, he is not totally understanding that the EGC is NOT ground. It just happens to be At GROUND potential...intentionally. A neutral should always be insulated so as not to allow circuit current to possibly travel on the conduit system, which, of course, it would not, in a pvc system.


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

Cletis, can you actually buy un-insulated wire cheaper?

Pete


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*?*

What? No one runs a bare neutral with ungrounded conductors in pvc conduit but me ? 

No one want's to tackle why it is a better design?


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Cletis said:


> I was going to run a parallel lateral of 400 amps. I was thinking of running 2 sets of 250 Thwn with a BARE ground (3/0 thwn neutral) in each 2" conduit to a 400 amp Disco.
> 
> How does this sound?



Is this aluminum?


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*Non*



Dennis Alwon said:


> Is this aluminum?


No, No , No. I'm not that stupid. Close. But not that bad. Of course, annealed copper.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Cletis said:


> No, No , No. I'm not that stupid. Close. But not that bad. Of course, annealed copper.


Well good but I don't think you will get much support that bare copper is better than insulated. Do whatever you want but I don't buy it. Figuratively speaking and literally.


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*ok*



Dennis Alwon said:


> Well good but I don't think you will get much support that bare copper is better than insulated. Do whatever you want but I don't buy it. Figuratively speaking and literally.


Ok. But my friend Tom tells me it's a much better design because if there is a fault, the bare copper will most likely be surrounded by water and such in pvc thereby clearing the fault faster since it has a direct contact with earth for a long length in conduit. 

If it is insulated it would have a longer path back to the source???? 

Should I tell Tom he is wrong??


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## idontknow (Jul 18, 2009)

Your 250mcm wire is only good for 300 amps and that's only in a residential service. You'd need at least 400mcm wire for the 400 amp disconnect. 600mcm in commercial.


You're saying the pvc conduit will fill with water, the water inside the conduit will saturate the pvc pipe causing the ground around it to be electrically continuous with the neutral? What is the maximum current rating for a gallon of water? Why is there no ground rod and ufer ground at the building to carry excess currents?


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*1*



idontknow said:


> Your 250mcm wire is only good for 300 amps and that's only in a residential service. You'd need at least 400mcm wire for the 400 amp disconnect. 600mcm in commercial.
> 
> 
> You're saying the pvc conduit will fill with water, the water inside the conduit will saturate the pvc pipe causing the ground around it to be electrically continuous with the neutral? What is the maximum current rating for a gallon of water? Why is there no ground rod and ufer ground at the building to carry excess currents?


You may want to refer to post 1. Dont know. There is.


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