# Right to work rally



## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

Makes me proud to drink yuengling.

The guy doesn't want to use the union, its his business,his choice.

This still is a free country

F-in crybaby entitled d-bags.


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

denny3992 said:


> btw **** is worth 1.4 billion.


How much of that do you feel your entitled too?


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## electro916 (Jan 16, 2009)

Downtown Pottsville I see, Ibew guys 743 or 607?


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

Goldagain said:


> How much of that do you feel your entitled too?


Well his worth just went up

I just cracked another beer.

I had no idea they were non union. I don't think of these things like the union obsessed jerkwads do.

I'm only drinking yeungling from now on :thumbup:


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

electro916 said:


> Downtown Pottsville I see, Ibew guys 743 or 607?


I think I saw Vic


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## electro916 (Jan 16, 2009)

robnj772 said:


> I think I saw Vic


Wasn't Vic in 98?


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

robnj772 said:


> I think I saw Vic


I doubt he would have missed that.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

denny3992 said:


> It was very peaceful and informative...
> Only 1 heckler


Pussies :laughing:


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## rewire (Jul 2, 2013)

Missouri will be the next "Right to work" state we have the votes to override the socialist democRAT governor.


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

rewire said:


> Missouri will be the next "Right to work" state we have the votes to override the socialist democRAT governor.


It's Monday.

I thought you were only pro union on Tuesdays and Thursdays


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## denny3992 (Jul 12, 2010)

electro916 said:


> Downtown Pottsville I see, Ibew guys 743 or 607?


Both


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

Let this thread serve as evidence of which side (on this site at least) bashes the other side.


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## 3D Electric (Mar 24, 2013)

At least Kansas is right to work :thumbsup:


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

erics37 said:


> Let this thread serve as evidence of which side (on this site at least) bashes the other side.


Let your post serve as evidence that just like a typical libtard, it's ok for you to do it but when someone else does it back to you, you get all asshurt.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Can someone explain how being _required_ to fund a separate organizations political agenda for the sake of a job _isn't _discriminatory?

http://www.ncsl.org/Portals/1/Documents/magazine/articles/2012/SL_0512-Stats.pdf

~CS~


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## ampman (Apr 2, 2009)

robnj772 said:


> I think I saw Vic


he was the one heckler


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by robnj772
> I think I saw Vic





> he was the one heckler
> __________________


Now that is funny:laughing:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

erics37 said:


> Let this thread serve as evidence of which side (on this site at least) bashes the other side.


That might mean something if your side was not always out on the streets in people's face calling them scabs, rats and blocking their way to earn a living. 


Until that stops I am not very concerned that some words typed on an electrical forum bother you.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

~CS~


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

I live in a Right To Work State and the IBEW does very well, we have plenty of work, good wages the Union stands on it merit, not a law.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

We've got Scott Walker!!!!!
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...-in-upcoming-autobiography/?intcmp=latestnews


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

cl219um said:


> 2 last quotes are the two biggest hecklers of the pro union out there.


So let me get this straight.

When they post their opinions they are hecklers.

But when you post your opinions talking about money grubbing companies and greedy bosses you are not heckling.


I need to write down all these double standards to keep up with them.


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## DIYer4Life (Nov 11, 2013)

Did 50 posts just disappear or is it me? 


Someone must have gotten mad when I said I was the best moderator, cause that post got toasted too.

I defy you to find a better moderator!!!


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Hate is such a powerful word, I do not hate anyone on this site, though if I think about it there may be a few on the border line:laughing::laughing:


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

brian john said:


> I live in a Right To Work State and the IBEW does very well, we have plenty of work, good wages the Union stands on it merit, not a law.


I'll take it on faith that someone of your tenure is honest Brian

but i'd also ask you explain_ why _it is a good thing?

~CS~


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

chicken steve said:


> I'll take it on faith that someone of your tenure is honest Brian
> 
> but i'd also ask you explain_ why _it is a good thing?
> 
> ~CS~


I do not feel being a union member should be a mandatory for employment, I also think states that adhere to prevailing wage drives up tax payers cost and to be honest it may go as far back as high school history and that my teacher taught it was BS???


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Brain

I hail from what i can only describe as _'God's special state'_ 

I've been on PW jobs , but ours isn't much to brag about, in fact out of state workers don't want to come here because of it

what, in your experience , would make our economic situation better in said regard?

~CS~


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## Vic. (Nov 12, 2013)

My ears are burning.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

This thread is tits


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## Vic. (Nov 12, 2013)

sbrn33 said:


> This thread is tits


Its only cool because I'm here now. Duh.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Vic. said:


> Its only cool because I'm here now. Duh.


My man, my man, how to heck are you? You working? HEALTHY, Wealthy and Wise, I HOPE???????


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## Vic. (Nov 12, 2013)

brian john said:


> My man, my man, how to heck are you? You working? HEALTHY, Wealthy and Wise, I HOPE???????


Everything is good. Surprisingly the only time the word wise is used with me its usually followed by ASS. :jester:


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## Norcal (Mar 22, 2007)

brian john said:


> Hate is such a powerful word, I do not hate anyone on this site, though if I think about it there may be a few on the border line:laughing::laughing:


 
Hate is too strong a emotion to waste on anybody.


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## pete87 (Oct 22, 2012)

3D Electric said:


> At least Kansas is right to work :thumbsup:




What is good about that ... ?




Pete


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## Norcal (Mar 22, 2007)

pete87 said:


> What is good about that ... ?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not being forced to pay tribute to corrupt union bosses to keep your job.


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## lefleuron (May 22, 2010)

Norcal said:


> Not being forced to pay tribute to corrupt union bosses to keep your job.


 YEAH!

Because its better to make 15 bucks an hour and pay no dues, then it is to make 42 per hour and pay 120 in dues!

Get your liberal union loving heads out of your butts!:laughing:

Learn math too ya union morons.:whistling2:


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## DIYer4Life (Nov 11, 2013)

Norcal said:


> Not being forced to pay tribute to corrupt union bosses to keep your job.


I never understood that mentality.

When I was in the union I paid under $500 per year in dues and a little over a dollar an hour in working dues.

What being a member and paying those dues got me was a total of $80/hr. 

Say what you want about the union, but that whole "I don't want to pay dues to union bosses" argument is silly. It's like saying "I don't want to pay an accountant $200, even tho he will get me a tax refund of $1,000 more than I would have been able to figure out".


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

pete87 said:


> What is good about that ... ?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's one of the few good things about Kansas, Duh!!!:laughing::laughing:


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## lefleuron (May 22, 2010)

wendon said:


> It's one of the few good things about Kansas, Duh!!!:laughing::laughing:


 That must be a yucky state.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

lefleuron said:


> That must be a yucky state.


Perhaps....



http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Brownbackistan said:


> Brownbackistan: a pseudo-Christian fascist state where the arts are not publicly funded, women's reproductive rights are relentlessly attacked, public school funding is drastically cut, voter suppression laws make it nearly impossible for new voters to register to vote, and social services are turned over to evangelical "Christian" groups, all done with the backing of the Koch brothers


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## pete87 (Oct 22, 2012)

wendon said:


> It's one of the few good things about Kansas, Duh!!!:laughing::laughing:




I thought it was the Women .





Pete


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

What happened to all the sense this thread was making? It looks like someone removed all the pro union post. Trying to starve the Trolls?


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## Norcal (Mar 22, 2007)

If one wishes to join a union that is fine and I have no problems with that, but I choose not to and like it that way & that is a right that organized crime/labor has done away with here in CA.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Goldagain said:


> What happened to all the sense this thread was making? It looks like someone removed all the pro union post. Trying to starve the Trolls?


That would never happen on this site.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

eejack said:


> Perhaps....


 *Bluebackistan* 
_Bluebackistan: a pseudo-atheist communist state where the arts are funded by the taxpayers whether they are interested in that nonsense or not, unborn children's rights are not only relentlessly attacked, but the unborn children are murdered, all in the name of the feel-good society with no consequences for one's actions. Public school funding is the norm even though the taxpayers are getting a poor return on their investment, voter laws are largely ignored to make it possible for illegal aliens, dead people, and non-existent people to vote, and social services are available to anyone that cares to sign up, including free birth control. Take from the rich and give to the poor is the rule of the day, all done with the blessing of the Mob and Union bosses._


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

Goldagain said:


> What happened to all the sense this thread was making? It looks like someone removed all the pro union post. Trying to starve the Trolls?


I have been following this thread.

Nothing has been deleted..........

Yet


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Norcal said:


> If one wishes to join a union that is fine and I have no problems with that, but I choose not to and like it that way & that is a right that organized crime/labor has done away with here in CA.


You can choose to not join any union. :thumbsup:


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## rewire (Jul 2, 2013)

eejack said:


> You can choose to not join any union. :thumbsup:


 soon that will be law in our state . 
SUPPORT RIGHT TO WORK


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## DIYer4Life (Nov 11, 2013)

eejack said:


> You can choose to not join any union. :thumbsup:


How does that work? How does an employee of ShopRite choose not to join the UFCW? How does a janitor at the local hospital choose not to join SEIU?


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

DIYer4Life said:


> How does that work? How does an employee of ShopRite choose not to join the UFCW? How does a janitor at the local hospital choose not to join SEIU?


They don't work at ShopRite or be a janitor at the local hospital. No one is forcing them to take those jobs, they are a choice. They can choose to seek employment elsewhere.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

IIRC, this RTW thing has been around for quite some time

So there must be some gauge or meter for it by now that informs the general public as to it's effectiveness in our economic structure....

Anyone care to comment on it's history & effects?

~CS~


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

eejack said:


> They don't work at ShopRite or be a janitor at the local hospital. No one is forcing them to take those jobs, they are a choice. They can choose to seek employment elsewhere.


So the union owns the hospital? That's the only way I can see through someone having to join the union.


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## Norcal (Mar 22, 2007)

eejack said:


> They don't work at ShopRite or be a janitor at the local hospital. No one is forcing them to take those jobs, they are a choice. They can choose to seek employment elsewhere.


 
So if a union comes in it's time to seek employment elsewhere, because of underhanded union tactics such as card check? All the leadership wants is the dues, and the power that money gives.


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## DIYer4Life (Nov 11, 2013)

eejack said:


> You can choose to not join any union. :thumbsup:





DIYer4Life said:


> How does that work? How does an employee of ShopRite choose not to join the UFCW? How does a janitor at the local hospital choose not to join SEIU?





eejack said:


> They don't work at ShopRite or be a janitor at the local hospital. No one is forcing them to take those jobs, they are a choice. They can choose to seek employment elsewhere.


Do you realize that when you talk like this you make yourself look like a shyster and con man? 

Your first post in the context of this thread was clearly saying that you don't need to join a union to have any job. You only admitted the truth after you were challenged. This is another reason why people hate unions. You're like a used car salesman trying to sell the undercoat.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

denny3992 said:


> Attended my 1st union rally, it targeted the gov of pa and owner of yuengling beer for his stance on right to work( he broke his union after 70yrs in his brewery) btw **** is worth 1.4 billion!


Let me translate this: I am a socialist and a communist.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Goldagain said:


> How much of that do you feel your entitled too?


I would like to hear an answer to this. If these union guys are truly honest, they will admit they _are_ entitled to that man's wealth.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

DIYer4Life said:


> Do you realize that when you talk like this you make yourself look like a shyster and con man?
> 
> Your first post in the context of this thread was clearly saying that you don't need to join a union to have any job. You only admitted the truth after you were challenged. This is another reason why people hate unions. You're like a used car salesman trying to sell the undercoat.


You want to spin simple declarative statements into me being a shyster and a con man, that is your perogative.

I did not say you don't need to join a union to have any job. I said you don't need to join a union. 

The reason why people disbelieve you union bashing folks is because you twist everything and therefore have no credibility.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

MTW said:


> I would like to hear an answer to this. If these union guys are truly honest, they will admit they _are_ entitled to that man's wealth.


As much as that man _is_ entitled to profit from their labor.


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## DIYer4Life (Nov 11, 2013)

MTW said:


> I would like to hear an answer to this. If these union guys are truly honest, they will admit they _are_ entitled to that man's wealth.


Saying that you are entitled to someone's wealth is kinda stretching it.

What they are saying is that their labor is worth something and that price, much like the price of material, is something they have to pay and part of business is charging accordingly to pay for your overhead, COGS, labor, etc.

I have no problem with people using their Constitutional right to assembly and negotiate as a group (ie, collective bargaining). It's a benefit to the worker, the same way as paying a headhunter could get you a better job than you could find yourself. Or paying a lawyer could get you a lesser fine/charge than you could get yourself. Or paying an accountant could get you a larger refund than you could get yourself. While some people say that people who use unions are "_weak and can't find good jobs on their own_", in reality it's often just a smart thing to do. Would you bang your chest and say how great you are as you walked into court representing yourself?

The problem with unions is the government interaction. There should be none. If workers want to form a union, they should be allowed to. If some workers don't want to join, they shouldn't be forced to. If the business wants to fire all of them, they should be allowed to. 

The laws are greatly skewed, as usual.


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## DIYer4Life (Nov 11, 2013)

eejack said:


> The reason why people disbelieve you union bashing folks is because you twist everything and therefore have no credibility.


There's been a whole lot of delusion on this forum today. NEWSFLASH, the majority of Americans hate unions. The reason is because of lying thugs like yourself.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

DIYer4Life said:


> There's been a whole lot of delusion on this forum today. NEWSFLASH, the majority of Americans hate unions. The reason is because of lying thugs like yourself.


Actually, no.
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2013/09/02/opinion-of-unions-is-up-membership-down/

Interestingly, you folks are throwing insults in this thread ( as normal ) and everyone else is acting like adults. Seems desperate on your part.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

> The problem with unions is the government interaction. There should be none. If workers want to form a union, they should be allowed to. If some workers don't want to join, they shouldn't be forced to. If the business wants to fire all of them, they should be allowed to.


Perhaps i'm naive in thinking the entire concept of unionization is simply_ fair_ play.

There isn't much the gub'mit does for a sm biz , so i see anything they do for the big3, wall street, or (in this instance) for unions as a legislative handout

and that, any way one wishes to paint it, _socialism_

That said, being the term is abused and misunderstood rather often, i would again ask, why do it? How has this helped the economy in the past & in the present, and in our future?

~CS~


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

DIYer4Life said:


> Saying that you are entitled to someone's wealth is kinda stretching it.
> 
> What they are saying is that their labor is worth something and that price, much like the price of material, is something they have to pay and part of business is charging accordingly to pay for your overhead, COGS, labor, etc.
> 
> ...


I mostly agree with this. I'm really just focusing on the fact that he mentioned the owner of Yuenling is worth $1.4 billion. That alone is very revealing and speaks volumes. It reveals the true mindset of the OP and many others.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

eejack said:


> Actually, no.
> http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2013/09/02/opinion-of-unions-is-up-membership-down/
> 
> .


I'm sure the same sentiments would follow suit if there was a poll of any number of endangered species eejack....:whistling2:~CS~


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## DIYer4Life (Nov 11, 2013)

chicken steve said:


> Perhaps i'm naive in thinking the entire concept of unionization is simply_ fair_ play.
> 
> There isn't much the gub'mit does for a sm biz , so i see anything they do for the big3, wall street, or (in this instance) for unions as a legislative handout
> 
> ...


Steve, do you have any idea how badly the unions in a joint effort with the DOL rape and pillage small businesses??


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## Maximumbob (May 24, 2013)

In the red corner we have big government, big labor and big business. In the blue corner we have the little guy.

I don't know Max but big seems so some much bigger than little. Well, that's no surprise Larry, little has had to work so hard to pay for his training camp as well as big's that there was wasn't much time to train.

Little's a gamer but I think he's fighting out of his weight class.

Let's get it on!


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## lefleuron (May 22, 2010)

Wow,

The "fair and balanced" Fox news of moderation has managed to change every post I made.

Shows real well for the type of employers who are anti-Union here. Real trustworthy- noooo, we dont need a Union, we can trust you.:laughing:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

eejack said:


> The reason why people disbelieve you union bashing folks is because you twist everything and therefore have no credibility.


Can you point to this list of people outside the union that do not believe what they see with their own eyes?


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

BBQ said:


> Can you point to this list of people outside the union that do not believe what they see with their own eyes?


:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:

Hell NO!!!!


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

eejack said:


> You can choose to not join any union. :thumbsup:


Am I the only one that's hearing "You can keep the insurance plan that you have."


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

BBQ said:


> Can you point to this list of people outside the union that do not believe what they see with their own eyes?


Can you give me a list of people who have been denied employment because they refused to join a union?


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

wendon said:


> Am I the only one that's hearing "You can keep the insurance plan that you have."


Trolling 101. If the facts don't fit your fantasy add meaning or deflect to something completely unrelated. Good job! :thumbsup:


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## DIYer4Life (Nov 11, 2013)

eejack said:


> Can you give me a list of people who have been denied employment because they refused to join a union?


Again, you are acting like a scummy salesman.

You said this earlier:



eejack said:


> You can choose to not join any union. :thumbsup:





DIYer4Life said:


> How does that work? How does an employee of ShopRite choose not to join the UFCW? How does a janitor at the local hospital choose not to join SEIU?





eejack said:


> They don't work at ShopRite or be a janitor at the local hospital. No one is forcing them to take those jobs, they are a choice. They can choose to seek employment elsewhere.


Why do you avoid the truth?? It's so apparent... You think you are doing good, but you are just making yourself look worse.


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## denny3992 (Jul 12, 2010)

rewire said:


> soon that will be law in our state .
> SUPPORT RIGHT TO WORK


If u dont want to join, then beg for raises and get paid what ever they want to pay... Not what former members bargained for.. 

Without unions setting a
Scale, what keeps nonunion wages in check?


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## denny3992 (Jul 12, 2010)

MTW said:


> Let me translate this: I am a socialist and a communist.


So i cant peacefully protest? Gfy... its my right


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

DIYer4Life said:


> Again, you are acting like a scummy salesman.
> 
> You said this earlier:
> 
> ...


You keep repeating it but it still is not true.

However, just to make you happy, I put you on my ignore list, just like every one of your other names. I encourage you to do the same so you are not bothered by silly things like the truth or facts.

Be well.


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## DIYer4Life (Nov 11, 2013)

eejack said:


> You keep repeating it but it still is not true.
> 
> However, just to make you happy, I put you on my ignore list, just like every one of your other names. I encourage you to do the same so you are not bothered by silly things like the truth or facts.
> 
> Be well.


Typical, when proven wrong you take the sissy way out.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

eejack said:


> Can you give me a list of people who have been denied employment because they refused to join a union?


Hold on there bud.

This started with you saying people do not believe many of us.

Either back that up or withdraw it before you go changing the subject.


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## pudge565 (Dec 8, 2007)

lefleuron said:


> Wow,
> 
> The "fair and balanced" Fox news of moderation has managed to change every post I made.
> 
> Shows real well for the type of employers who are anti-Union here. Real trustworthy- noooo, we dont need a Union, we can trust you.:laughing:


Of course, we can trust them, just ask my employer who ows me almost 2k in OT pay...


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

DIYer4Life said:


> Steve, do you have any idea how badly the unions in a joint effort with the DOL rape and pillage small businesses??


No........

I've led a reclusive life, and have no idea DIYer

~CS~


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

BBQ said:


> Hold on there bud.
> 
> This started with you saying people do not believe many of us.
> 
> Either back that up or withdraw it before you go changing the subject.


Actually, it didn't. It started with someone posting about attending a rally then after two pages of union insults it became a conversation about that third world state, Kansas. 

Then I mentioned that you were not forced to join a union and that was retold as something it wasn't. Then we were told America hates unions. Which it doesn't.

If the anti-union side wants credibility then they need to act like adults, stop insulting everyone in every thread, use facts instead of fantasy and in general pull their collective heads out of their echo chamber and rejoin the rest of the nation. Pretending does not cut it in adultland.

People do not believe that whole angry anti-union, anti-fillintheblank crowd anymore. All they do is hate. People are sick of hate. You pick the label they want to be called, check the polls, you will see folks are sick of them.

It is easy to make up the story, it is much harder when someone hits them with facts. Back up a single 'claim' made in this thread.

You want me to stop questioning your credibility - try acting like you deserve some for a while. Until then, get used to being told to grow up.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

eejack said:


> Actually, it didn't. It started with someone posting about attending a rally then after two pages of union insults it became a conversation about that third world state, Kansas.


No, don't change the subject, our conversation picks up when you said ...



eejack said:


> The reason why people disbelieve you union bashing folks is because you twist everything and therefore have no credibility.


I am going to be bold and assume that you include me in the 'union bashing folks'.

So how about it, are you going to tell us how you know people do not believe us or that we do not have any credibility?:whistling2:


For a bonus round we could talk about your own credibility in anything union related. :jester:


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

eejack said:


> If the anti-union side wants credibility then they need to act like adults, stop insulting everyone in every thread, use facts instead of fantasy and in general pull their collective heads out of their echo chamber and rejoin the rest of the nation. Pretending does not cut it in adultland.
> 
> .


I've asked nicely, and in multiple threads

So, if you see yourself as liaison , emissary , or whatever term it is that describes one who advocates , i gotta say i'm still at a loss

Convince guys like me, because we are the _'nation' _, and you'll thrive

I_ s***_ you not eejack

Alienate us , shine us on by whatever means, and you'll simply be a labor related bedtime story for our grandkids

~CS~


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

BBQ said:


> I am going to be bold and assume that you include me in the 'union bashing folks'.
> 
> So how about it, are you going to tell us how you know people do not believe us or that we do not have any credibility?:whistling2:
> 
> ...


Yes, you consistently bash unions. I will say that you do credit unions for their role in raising wages and conditions but you also run with that same group of folks that bash unions constantly. Since you all have no problem painting all union members with a single brush, I feel the freedom to do the same. 

Guilt by association.

Which is comical because you at least are reasonable in your arguments, they are well formed and usually without rancor or absurdity. They are also couched in assumptions and conjecture, anecdotal and without the force of facts.

Show me somewhere that the anti-union crowd does have credibility? Over and over in these thread wild accusations and claims are made and over and over again, shot down by facts. But in truth, there is no poll that can show someone does have or have not credibility. I do find it telling that positive view of unions is on the rise.

As far as my own credibility, it is beyond reproach because you cannot knock down anything I say with facts, only fables and hearsay. Wishing me to be wrong does not get it done. Prove it once or twice.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

BBQ said:


> For a bonus round we could talk about your own credibility in anything union related. :jester:


Welcome to the idiom of completely objective laurels to rest upon BBQ

~CS~


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

This will never end here, as the vast majority of members here are non union, and must constantly justify their position. 
Some just do it for fun. I know this to be somewhat factual from PM's recieved. It's just a game.
Carry on the head banging/mud slinging game.


----------



## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

Sorry I wasn't around this past week. I worked 92 hours. Great $$ in taping cords down BBQ.:laughing:


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

denny3992 said:


> So i cant peacefully protest? Gfy... its my right


I never said it wasn't. But my mentioning that the owner of the company to which this protest is directed is worth $1.4 billion, you are revealing your true motivation.


----------



## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

eejack said:


> Trolling 101. If the facts don't fit your fantasy add meaning or deflect to something completely unrelated. Good job! :thumbsup:


Taught by the best!!!:laughing::laughing: Thanks for the kudos but I can probably only dream of being as good at it as Master Eeejackski.


----------



## Brother Noah (Jul 18, 2013)

big2bird said:


> Sorry I wasn't around this past week. I worked 92 hours. Great $$ in taping cords down BBQ.:laughing:


Brother are you working the shows out of 441? The weather is wonderful isn't it? It actually got down to 58 here last night BHrr!


----------



## eric7379 (Jan 5, 2010)

pudge565 said:


> Of course, we can trust them, just ask my employer who ows me almost 2k in OT pay...


Ok, so you think that just because you were dealt a bad hand that it automatically means that we desperately need unions??? :no::no:

I work for a company that has over 20 thousand employees. I keep track of all of my overtime hours that I work. Not once have I ever been shorted. There have been a handful of times in which I worked overtime that was not directly authorized and they still paid me, which they should have. I was almost written up over one incident. 

Just trying to show you that every situation is different.


----------



## Chrisibew440 (Sep 13, 2013)

robnj772 said:


> Makes me proud to drink yuengling.
> 
> The guy doesn't want to use the union, its his business,his choice.
> 
> ...


Don't be mad bro. Making a living out of what I do brings me and you closer together. One day you'll realize. Hopefully. Local union 440. Chris


----------



## Chrisibew440 (Sep 13, 2013)

robnj772 said:


> Well his worth just went up
> 
> I just cracked another beer.
> 
> ...


Hey. You sound like your thinking about joining all pissed off and sh$&. Come on fellow sparkles.!!! JOIN ALREADY. You know you want to. Local union 440.


----------



## Chrisibew440 (Sep 13, 2013)

eejack said:


> Yes, you consistently bash unions. I will say that you do credit unions for their role in raising wages and conditions but you also run with that same group of folks that bash unions constantly. Since you all have no problem painting all union members with a single brush, I feel the freedom to do the same.
> 
> Guilt by association.
> 
> ...


Well said. In solidarity. Local union 440.


----------



## Chrisibew440 (Sep 13, 2013)

Only if every working laborsome person joined a union. Ahhhhhhhh. What a dream.


----------



## Chrisibew440 (Sep 13, 2013)

chicken steve said:


> Can someone explain how being _required_ to fund a separate organizations political agenda for the sake of a job _isn't _discriminatory?
> 
> http://www.ncsl.org/Portals/1/Documents/magazine/articles/2012/SL_0512-Stats.pdf
> 
> ~CS~


Yeah! Keep working for low wages. Lmao


----------



## Chrisibew440 (Sep 13, 2013)

robnj772 said:


> Let your post serve as evidence that just like a typical libtard, it's ok for you to do it but when someone else does it back to you, you get all asshurt.


I bet you think the ibew is full of liberals huh?


----------



## eric7379 (Jan 5, 2010)

Chrisibew440 said:


> I bet you think the ibew is full of liberals huh?


:yes::yes:

Are you honestly going to try to say that it is full of conservatives?? :lol:

Here is a little tidbit of info. Not a direct number, but is a pretty good indicator:

Year Covered: 2010 Last Updated: October 29th, 2012
*Political Activities*


*FEC*

*Overall Contributions*

*Democrats: $19,011,880.00 (0.9606)*

*Republicans: $620,157.00 (0.0313)*



From this website:

http://www.unionfacts.com/union/International_Brotherhood_of_Electrical_Workers


Now, if you are able to come up with hard numbers to contradict this that shows that the majority of the IBEW membership is conservative, I will eat crow. However, I think you will be looking for a long time.

BTW, I am not totally anti-union. It's just not my thing. Never has been. It's your choice to be union. If that is what makes you happy, then good for you. I am perfectly happy with my lifestyle and being non-union and I make same pretty good coin doing what I do.


----------



## eric7379 (Jan 5, 2010)

Chrisibew440 said:


> Hey. You sound like your thinking about joining all pissed off and sh$&. Come on fellow sparkles.!!! JOIN ALREADY. You know you want to. Local union 440.


 
I'd rather give myself a vasectomy with a spoon.


----------



## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

Chrisibew440 said:


> Yeah! Keep working for low wages. Lmao


Did you click the link and read the article ?


----------



## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

Chrisibew440 said:


> I bet you think the ibew is full of liberals huh?


Were you born yesterday?

Of course it is.

When I was in school they tried to make up do the call center.

Call other " brothers" and tell them who to vote for, the democratic candidate 

I refused to do it.


----------



## pudge565 (Dec 8, 2007)

eric7379 said:


> Ok, so you think that just because you were dealt a bad hand that it automatically means that we desperately need unions??? :no::no:
> 
> I work for a company that has over 20 thousand employees. I keep track of all of my overtime hours that I work. Not once have I ever been shorted. There have been a handful of times in which I worked overtime that was not directly authorized and they still paid me, which they should have. I was almost written up over one incident.
> 
> Just trying to show you that every situation is different.


Theu are smarter than just simply not paying the OT at all, I have been getting paid straight time for 4 hours travel a day on top of 8 hours working. I meet at the shop both before and after wprk to load unload (travel to from shop and home os not counted in these hours).

When I asked after getting my first paycheck with the straight time, I was told hours traveled must be paid but it is not considered "hours worked" so only has to be paid straight. Too many people just believe lines like that. Case in point, my JM has worked there 10 years he just believes them and says its better than no pay for drive time. How much money do you think he missed out on over 10 years?

Is started looking up state labor law but there was no clear cut answer and the department would not return my frequent calls. I finally called a labor law lawyer to ask about it and was told the employer is misinterpreting the laws.

I have called the federal department (they fall into their enforecement as they make more than 500k in sales) and spoke to an actual person the first time I called.

Now my point here is, had there been a union contract this all would have been spelled out and I would not have had to use my time to wade though vague labor law, they also would not have even attempted to short the pay.

Now I know why there was a page in the employe handbook saying how against unions they are and theu habe an open door policy.


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Chrisibew440 said:


> Yeah! Keep working for low wages. Lmao


Most one /two man shop owners do _better _than the average union employee Chris

and there's a _h*llova_ lot more of _us_ than _you_

So you're put down is not only unfounded, it's just a tad unproductive after asking us to join you

Electricians like myself would subscribe to collectivism and solidarity, were it actually expressed attractively Chris 

Yet this is what we get, even asking in _sincerity_ about the dealing such as RTW laws of you lot. Always the subjective anecdotal , rarely the objective bigger picture. 

How you folks manage to survive is every bit your choice as it was to join the IBEW in the first place

May i suggest you tutor your own a tad better towards social exchanges pursuant to a viable future

good luck

~CS~


----------



## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

Chrisibew440 said:


> Hey. You sound like your thinking about joining all pissed off and sh$&. Come on fellow sparkles.!!! JOIN ALREADY. You know you want to. Local union 440.


I left the union about 15 years ago and never looked back.

But thanks for playing


----------



## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

Chrisibew440 said:


> Don't be mad bro. Making a living out of what I do brings me and you closer together. One day you'll realize. Hopefully. Local union 440. Chris


So why is it that every time someone doesn't agree with someone they are " angry" ?


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

pudge565 said:


> When I asked after getting my first paycheck with the straight time, I was told hours traveled must be paid but it is not considered "hours worked" so only has to be paid straight. Too many people just believe lines like that. Case in point, my JM has worked there 10 years he just believes them and says its better than no pay for drive time. How much money do you think he missed out on over 10 years?


What you describe is in fact perfectly legal, as a matter of fact they are only required to pay minimum wage for travel time. 

Now if you have a contract that calls for more you may have a case but if relying on labor laws only you are not required to get OT.


----------



## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

pudge565 said:


> Theu are smarter than just simply not paying the OT at all, I have been getting paid straight time for 4 hours travel a day on top of 8 hours working. I meet at the shop both before and after wprk to load unload (travel to from shop and home os not counted in these hours).
> 
> When I asked after getting my first paycheck with the straight time, I was told hours traveled must be paid but it is not considered "hours worked" so only has to be paid straight. Too many people just believe lines like that. Case in point, my JM has worked there 10 years he just believes them and says its better than no pay for drive time. How much money do you think he missed out on over 10 years?
> 
> ...


Travel time does not have to be paid as overtime. In fact they could pay you minimum wage to travel if they wanted and be within the law. Be thankful you're getting paid travel at your full rate of pay. This is not a good example of a union being necessary.



pudge565 said:


> Now I know why there was a page in the employe handbook saying how against unions they are and theu habe an open door policy.


This most likely is illegal.


----------



## pudge565 (Dec 8, 2007)

BBQ said:


> What you describe is in fact perfectly legal, as a matter of fact they are only required to pay minimum wage for travel time.
> 
> Now if you have a contract that calls for more you may have a case but if relying on labor laws only you are not required to get OT.





EBFD6 said:


> Travel time does not have to be paid as overtime. In fact they could pay you minimum wage to travel if they wanted and be within the law. Be thankful you're getting paid travel at your full rate of pay. This is not a good example of a union being necessary.
> 
> 
> This most likely is illegal.


According to this lawyer http://www.justanswer.com/law/842t7-employed-electrical-contrctor-shoemakersville.html?al=1&utm_source=mar&utm_medium=email&utm_content=viewabox_ln&utm_campaign=expert_follow-up&r=emm%7Cexpert_follow-up%7C43231096%7Cln=viewabox_ln disagrees with you, and I'd take his advise over an electrician on a forum.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

pudge565 said:


> According to this lawyer http://www.justanswer.com/law/842t7-employed-electrical-contrctor-shoemakersville.html?al=1&utm_source=mar&utm_medium=email&utm_content=viewabox_ln&utm_campaign=expert_follow-up&r=emm%7Cexpert_follow-up%7C43231096%7Cln=viewabox_ln disagrees with you, and I'd take his advise over an electrician on a forum.


Always wise to get professional advice. 

But keep in mind I have had some time in an office running work, dealing with payroll rules, company lawyers etc and what I have told you is a fact at least in the states we work in.

Drive time does not count toward overtime except for some specific circumstances. 

Good luck. :laughing:


http://www.opm.gov/policy-data-over...hedules/fact-sheets/hours-of-work-for-travel/


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

I vote BBQ ET stewart!:thumbsup:


~CS~


----------



## Vic. (Nov 12, 2013)

Pudge, you've been bitching about this forever now. **** or get off the pot.


----------



## pudge565 (Dec 8, 2007)

Vic. said:


> Pudge, you've been bitching about this forever now. **** or get off the pot.


I'm working on ****ting man! I am about 95% done!


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Vic. said:


> Pudge, you've been bitching about this forever now. **** or get off the pot.


I wonder if Pudge's other condition is still static as well.............:laughing:


----------



## Vic. (Nov 12, 2013)

This particular employer is a tard. He/She could easily avoid all this headache by having the employee leave directly from there home. In that instance, there is no question that the employee is now on "Home/Work Travel" law. Zero compensation required, for the whole entire drive.

But since the employer is requiring that the employee report to the shop first (and I assume drive in a company vehicle) then all those hours of travel do qualify as 'hours worked" and count towards OT hours.


----------



## Vic. (Nov 12, 2013)

macmikeman said:


> I wonder if Pudge's other condition is still static as well.............:laughing:


Yeah, he still wondering if initial penetration falls under the "FLSA".
:jester:


----------



## pudge565 (Dec 8, 2007)

Mac and Vic I'm working on that too, if you two would show up to chat you'd know that!


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Vic. said:


> But since the employer is requiring that the employee report to the shop first (and I assume drive in a company vehicle) then all those hours of travel do qualify as 'hours worked" and count towards OT hours.


Vic, that depends

For sure that counts as hours worked but it may, or may not have to be counted toward OT.

If I require a guy to come to the shop and drive a truck full of supplies to the job. That counts as work toward OT hours. 

If I require a second guy to meet the first and just ride to the job that is also time required to be paid but not at OT and it could even be minimum wage. 

Now what the law allows and what is right are not always one in the same.


----------



## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

pudge565 said:


> Theu are smarter than just simply not paying the OT at all, I have been getting paid straight time for 4 hours travel a day on top of 8 hours working. I meet at the shop both before and after wprk to load unload (travel to from shop and home os not counted in these hours).
> 
> When I asked after getting my first paycheck with the straight time, I was told hours* traveled must be paid but it is not considered "hours worked" so only has to be paid straight*. Too many people just believe lines like that. Case in point, my JM has worked there 10 years he just believes them and says its better than no pay for drive time. How much money do you think he missed out on over 10 years?
> 
> ...


...if your loading a van with material first thing in the morning and driving that material to a job site, in a company owned van, how is that not work? *You are being lied to* , no lawyer is needed. 

Send a certified letter, signed receipt requested , to the Commissioner of Labor in your state, and you will have an answer within 90 days.


----------



## denny3992 (Jul 12, 2010)

MTW said:


> I never said it wasn't. But my mentioning that the owner of the company to which this protest is directed is worth $1.4 billion, you are revealing your true motivation.


Stating a fact... Union was in his plant for 70+ yrs, he threatened to close, union gets booted, he is worth 1.4b what motivation is that? Hes a greedy bastard...
Im not saying someone doesn't deserve to make money, as a business owner they should make lots, but take care of employees also


----------



## Vic. (Nov 12, 2013)

BBQ said:


> Vic, that depends
> 
> For sure that counts as hours worked but it may, or may not have to be counted toward OT.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I agree with that. But honestly, I am not a lawyer, and either are you. The law is grey on the matter and I am sure there is case law either proving AND contradicting both points.

If the passenger helps unload the material is it now "hours worked" :laughing:


----------



## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

EBFD6 said:


> Travel time does not have to be paid as overtime. In fact they could pay you minimum wage to travel if they wanted and be within the law. Be thankful you're getting paid travel at your full rate of pay. This is not a good example of a union being necessary.


I think it's a perfect example. If I drive or fly to a job out of town, I'm on the clock. PERIOD. If they send me to Chicago on a Sunday, I make $91 an hour from my house to the company condo there.


----------



## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

BBQ said:


> Vic, that depends
> 
> For sure that counts as hours worked but it may, or may not have to be counted toward OT.
> 
> ...


...the tricks of the non union sector never cease to amaze me. If you are requiring him to ride in the van, why is he now making less money hourly? If he handles material on the job site during the day, does he again make less money during that time? 

Set an hourly rate for a man, pay him that hourly rate, no games or gimmicks.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

360max said:


> ...if your loading a van with material first thing in the morning and driving that material to a job site, in a company owned van, how is that not work? *You are being lied to* , no lawyer is needed.
> 
> Send a certified letter, signed receipt requested , to the Commissioner of Labor in your state, and you will have an answer within 90 days.


The rules have been posted, it depends on what you are doing. It is not as cut and dry as you are trying to make it. 

Stop be such a liberal DB. :laughing:



> Travel time is not considered work time unless the following conditions are met:
> 
> Employees who drive vehicles that contain essential tools or equipment of the employer from their homes to work sites may be working while traveling.
> 
> ...


http://www.shrm.org/TemplatesTools/...hoursworkedwhencalculatingweeklyovertime.aspx


Now where does this leave pudge? No one here can say but it seems if he really had a case a simple phone call to his labor board would straighten it out.


----------



## pudge565 (Dec 8, 2007)

BBQ said:


> The rules have been posted, it depends on what you are doing. It is not as cut and dry as you are trying to make it.
> 
> Stop be such a liberal DB. :laughing:
> 
> ...


If you would read you would see that I called my labor board several times and got a machine then never got a call back.


----------



## denny3992 (Jul 12, 2010)

BBQ said:


> Vic, that depends
> 
> For sure that counts as hours worked but it may, or may not have to be counted toward OT.
> 
> ...


If they handle material hes working


----------



## Vic. (Nov 12, 2013)

It wouldn't be a labor board issue, unless Pudge and a few of the other employee's bitched about it, and then were punished or fired for making the bitch, right now, it's a Department of Labor issue, wage compliance.

And as far as making a bitch to the government is concerned, we all know how long that can take.


----------



## Vic. (Nov 12, 2013)

pudge565 said:


> If you would read you would see that I called my labor board several times and got a machine then never got a call back.


That's not a Labor Board issue. And a phone call is not how that works, you need to file a charge, via the website.


----------



## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

Vic. said:


> It wouldn't be a labor board issue, unless Pudge and a few of the other employee's bitched about it, and then were punished or fired for making the bitch


Another case for unions. Getting fired for filing a grievence is not allowed.


----------



## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

pudge565 said:


> Theu are smarter than just simply not paying the OT at all, I have been getting paid straight time for 4 hours travel a day on top of 8 hours working. I meet at the shop both before and after wprk to load unload (travel to from shop and home os not counted in these hours).
> 
> When I asked after getting my first paycheck with the straight time, I was told hours traveled must be paid but it is not considered "hours worked" so only has to be paid straight. Too many people just believe lines like that. Case in point, my JM has worked there 10 years he just believes them and says its better than no pay for drive time. How much money do you think he missed out on over 10 years?
> 
> ...


I predict a one man lay off coming:whistling2:

You guys would hate it in Florida.


----------



## pudge565 (Dec 8, 2007)

jrannis said:


> I predict a one man lay off coming:whistling2:
> 
> You guys would hate it in Florida.


That's ok as I am halfway out the door already. Plus then I can collect UE.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

360max said:


> ...the tricks of the non union sector never cease to amaze me. If you are requiring him to ride in the van, why is he now making less money hourly? If he handles material on the job site during the day, does he again make less money during that time?
> 
> Set an hourly rate for a man, pay him that hourly rate, no games or gimmicks.


Lets say I have work 8 to 10 hours drive away I send two guys in a van one guy is riding, playing on his smart phone and sight seeing.

The law only requires the rider to be paid minimum wage. Have we done that? Not that I am aware of.

We have paid straight time vs OT for that ride time, and all of it was discussed with _volenteers_ before they left. 

Now you will spin that into a greedy company screwing the workers but I bid that work and had I bid that work paying the OT for all the travel we likely would not have gotten the job which means the guys would have no pay.

Instead we got the work, we had 6 to 8 guys busy for couple of months making some good money even without getting OT to sightsee. 

No tricks, no gimmicks, no surprises, all openly discussed with all before they set foot out the door.


----------



## Vic. (Nov 12, 2013)

big2bird said:


> Another case for unions. Getting fired for filing a grievence is not allowed.


Agreed.
But that's another conversation all together.


----------



## pudge565 (Dec 8, 2007)

denny3992 said:


> If they handle material hes working


Actually according to the definitions in the PA wage laws I don't even have to handle material.

" Hours worked - The term includes time during which an employe is required by the employer to be on the premises of the employer, to be on duty or to be at the prescribed work place, time spent in traveling as part of the duties of the employe during normal working hours and time during which an employe is employed or permitted to work; provided, however, that time allowed for meals shall be excluded unless the employe is required or permitted to work during that time, and provided further, that time spent on the premises of the employer for the convenience of the employe shall be excluded."

http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt?open=514&objID=552961&mode=2


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

denny3992 said:


> If they handle material hes working


That could be, but none of us know a thing about it other than what pudge has told us.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

pudge565 said:


> If you would read you would see that I called my labor board several times and got a machine then never got a call back.



Perhaps you don't have a case.



Vic. said:


> It wouldn't be a labor board issue, unless Pudge and a few of the other employee's bitched about it, and then were punished or fired for making the bitch, right now, it's a Department of Labor issue, wage compliance.


Where I am a report to the labor board would do it.


----------



## Vic. (Nov 12, 2013)

pudge565 said:


> That's ok as I am halfway out the door already. Plus then I can collect UE.


Aw****t....gettin' your Jackwad bucks I see. :laughing: :thumbup:


----------



## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

BBQ said:


> The rules have been posted, it depends on what you are doing. It is not as cut and dry as you are trying to make it.
> 
> Stop be such a liberal DB. :laughing:
> 
> ...


... non unions now believe it is OK to have people work 80 hours with no over time pay, just say he was driving a van for the first 40


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

big2bird said:


> Getting fired for filing a grievence is not allowed.


For sure and if we did that we would be in deep crap.


----------



## Vic. (Nov 12, 2013)

BBQ said:


> Where I am a report to the labor board would do it.


Huh?


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

360max said:


> ... non unions now believe it is OK to have people work 80 hours with no over time pay, just say he was driving a van for the first 40


Unions think someone should get OT for doing nothing. :laughing:


----------



## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

BBQ said:


> Lets say I have work 8 to 10 hours drive away I send two guys in a van one guy is riding, playing on his smart phone and sight seeing.
> 
> The law only requires the rider to be paid minimum wage. Have we done that? Not that I am aware of.
> 
> ...


Not a spin at all. You negotiated away their wages, and they bought it hook, line, and sinker. You make it sound like you did them all a huge favor.


----------



## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

I am union B, when I work OT, I work.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Vic. said:


> Huh?


Well maybe we call it different things but regardless of what we call it we do follow the rules.


----------



## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

BBQ said:


> Unions think someone should get OT for doing nothing. :laughing:


Unions think the wage should be set up front. BOTH sides KNOW what is what. No , "we did them a favor bidding the travel time at straight time.":laughing:


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

360max said:


> I am union B, when I work OT, I work.


If you are siting in the passenger seat of a truck sightseeing you must be very proud to call that work.


----------



## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

BBQ said:


> If you are siting in the passenger seat of a truck sightseeing you must be very proud to call that work.


If the company has instructed me to do it, and I am on THEIR TIME, hell ya.

Your rather proud of being a company patsy.:thumbsup:


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

big2bird said:


> Not a spin at all. You negotiated away their wages, and they bought it hook, line, and sinker. You make it sound like you did them all a huge favor.


A huge favor? I don't know.


But I did keep them working as opposed to getting laid off. They are grown men and they had full choice to stay or go.

.




big2bird said:


> Unions think the wage should be set up front. BOTH sides KNOW what is what. No , "we did them a favor bidding the travel time at straight time.":laughing:



Again, they did know the deal before, not after. 

I would have taken the deal if I was them. 

Do you also have a problem with the fact that they were also told that if they got a certain amount done they could come home early and get there 40 hours anyway?

In other words, if they put in 30 hours of production they would end up with 40 hours for that, plus the 16 to 20 hours of drive time for the week?

So 30 hours, work, about 60 hours pay, plus per diems for food and of course decent hotels each night. Yeah I suck, I really screwed them hard. :laughing:


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

big2bird said:


> If the company has instructed me to do it, and I am on THEIR TIME, hell ya.
> :


See, there we have a basic problem, I can't be proud of collecting money for nothing. If I was into that I would be on welfare.



> Your rather proud of being a company patsy.:thumbsup


Your rather proud of being overpaid to run extension cords.


----------



## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

BBQ said:


> A huge favor? I don't know.
> 
> 
> But I did keep them working as opposed to getting laid off. They are grown men and they had full choice to stay or go.
> ...


Paint it as rosy as you want, your just a sucker. I get any OT and per diem and free hotels for the SAME THING.


----------



## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

BBQ said:


> If you are siting in the passenger seat of a truck sightseeing you must be very proud to call that work.


How about the pay starts and ends at the gang box on the job site?
If a company truck is going that way and has a legal seat available, it's yours and we are happy you saved the gas expense.


----------



## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

BBQ said:


> See, there we have a basic problem, I can't be proud of collecting money for nothing. If I was into that I would be on welfare.
> 
> 
> 
> Your rather proud of being overpaid to run extension cords.


You just don't get it. If I put in a show, and get paid OT to stand by all day, and never get called, I get a pat on the back for doing my job right in the first place.

If the stand by is billable, it's a win-win. 

I am NOT home drinking beer, I am on THEIR TIME doing what I was INSTRUCTED to do.

Why is that such a hard concept for you? You say WE are brainwashed, YET, you suck up to your companies every whim. Sucka.


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## pudge565 (Dec 8, 2007)

BBQ said:


> See, there we have a basic problem, I can't be proud of collecting money for nothing. If I was into that I would be on welfare.
> 
> Your rather proud of being overpaid to run extension cords.


So I guess that machine start up I was sent to I shouldn't have been paid for because I was just standing there in case there were start up issues.


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

pudge565 said:


> So I guess that machine start up I was sent to I shouldn't have been paid for because I was just standing there in case there were start up issues.


BBQ would have cut them a deal, maintaining his "TOP DOG" status while ****ing everyone else. It's what kiss azz suckas do.


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## pudge565 (Dec 8, 2007)

Here's what I'm going to do BBQ, I'll file a complaint, and let you know when I win.


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

pudge565 said:


> Here's what I'm going to do BBQ, I'll file a complaint, and let you know when I win.


Good luck. If they fire you, sue their azz off.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

BBQ said:


> See, there we have a basic problem, I can't be proud of collecting money for nothing. If I was into that I would be on welfare.
> 
> 
> 
> Your rather proud of being overpaid to run extension cords.


So when your riding around to jobs are you off the clock? You would have to drive there to work anyways, why not help us out and take the van in case you need a wire nut or something?


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

BBQ said:


> If you are siting in the passenger seat of a truck sightseeing you* must be very proud to call that work*.


 Its time away from my family in which I try and make myself and my employer some money, so yes, its work. 

Hire a truck driver like everyone else does, the truck drivers job ends at the job site curb.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

pudge565 said:


> Here's what I'm going to do BBQ, I'll file a complaint, and let you know when I win.


Please do, and when you get the back pay snap a photo of the check here.


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## pudge565 (Dec 8, 2007)

BTW BBQ, "The United States Supreme Court originally stated that employees subject to the act must be paid for all time spent in “physical or mental exertion (whether burdensome or not) controlled or required by the employer and pursued necessarily and primarily for the benefit of the employer and his business.” (Tennessee Coal, Iron & Railroad Co. v. Muscoda Local No. 123, 321 U. S. 590 (1944)) Subsequently, the Court ruled that there need be no exertion at all and that all hours are hours worked which the employee is required to give his employer, that “an employer, if he chooses, may hire a man to do nothing, or to do nothing but wait for something to happen. Refraining from other activity often is a factor of instant readiness to serve, and idleness plays a part in all employments in a stand-by capacity. Readiness to serve may be hired, quite as much as service itself, and time spent lying in wait for threats to the safety of the employer's property may be treated by the parties as a benefit to the employer.” (Armour & Co. v. Wantock, 323 U.S. 126 (1944); Skidmore v. Swift, 323 U.S. 134 (1944)) The workweek ordinarily includes* “all the time during which an employee is necessarily required to be on the employer's premises, on duty or at a prescribed work place”*. (Anderson v. Mt. Clemens Pottery Co., 328 U.S. 680 (1946)) The Portal-to-Portal Act did not change the rule except to provide an exception for preliminary and postliminary activities. See §785.34."


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

big2bird said:


> Paint it as rosy as you want, your just a sucker. I get any OT and per diem and free hotels for the SAME THING.


That is the same logic a thief uses. Honest people are suckers because they work for a living.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

big2bird said:


> You just don't get it. If I put in a show, and get paid OT to stand by all day, and never get called, I get a pat on the back for doing my job right in the first place.
> 
> If the stand by is billable, it's a win-win.


Which is working, which is billable which we do as well.

But that is not what we were talking about, we were talking about drive time. 



> I am NOT home drinking beer, I am on THEIR TIME doing what I was INSTRUCTED to do.
> 
> Why is that such a hard concept for you? You say WE are brainwashed, YET, you suck up to your companies every whim. Sucka.


It's not a hard concept at all, but it is not what we are talking about. :laughing:

We do tons of stuff like that babysitting generators and the time is billed and paid as OT or DT as applicable. 

The company pays OT to the employees if they are under 40 but we billed OT.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

big2bird said:


> Good luck. If they fire you, sue their azz off.


I agree 100%


And if Pudge is mistaken he should be sure to reimburse them for any costs.:whistling2:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

pudge565 said:


> BTW BBQ, "The United States Supreme Court originally stated that employees subject to the act must be paid for all time spent in “physical or mental exertion (whether burdensome or not) controlled or required by the employer and pursued necessarily and primarily for the benefit of the employer and his business.” (Tennessee Coal, Iron & Railroad Co. v. Muscoda Local No. 123, 321 U. S. 590 (1944)) Subsequently, the Court ruled that there need be no exertion at all and that all hours are hours worked which the employee is required to give his employer, that “an employer, if he chooses, may hire a man to do nothing, or to do nothing but wait for something to happen. Refraining from other activity often is a factor of instant readiness to serve, and idleness plays a part in all employments in a stand-by capacity. Readiness to serve may be hired, quite as much as service itself, and time spent lying in wait for threats to the safety of the employer's property may be treated by the parties as a benefit to the employer.” (Armour & Co. v. Wantock, 323 U.S. 126 (1944); Skidmore v. Swift, 323 U.S. 134 (1944)) The workweek ordinarily includes* “all the time during which an employee is necessarily required to be on the employer's premises, on duty or at a prescribed work place”*. (Anderson v. Mt. Clemens Pottery Co., 328 U.S. 680 (1946)) The Portal-to-Portal Act did not change the rule except to provide an exception for preliminary and postliminary activities. See §785.34."



Keep trying but I have posted the links to the laws. Drive time is not always work time.


But you are in the perfect spot to prove me wrong. Just file a compliant and post a pic of the check.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Loose Neutral said:


> So when your riding around to jobs are you off the clock? You would have to drive there to work anyways, why not help us out and take the van in case you need a wire nut or something?


Do you guys have any sack left at all, or do you have to turn it into the hall?:laughing:

Saying no is not a death sentence. We have guys that refuse to travel, we have guys that refuse to work nights yet they still have jobs.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

360max said:


> Its time away from my family in which I try and make myself and my employer some money, so yes, its work.


So if you were to travel for work you would expect OT for the hours spent at the hotel?

You would be away from your family for your employer so it must be work.:laughing:


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

BBQ said:


> But that is not what we were talking about, we were talking about drive time.
> 
> 
> 
> It's not a hard concept at all, but it is not what we are talking about. :laughing:


Same thing. If the company says" Drop what your doing and drive to Bakersfield Sunday", I get DT + milage, BECAUSE, I am doing what I have been instructed to do. It IS the same thing. I am not home watching football, I am doing what I was told for the wages per the agreement. They KNOW this when they send me.
They make big $$ off of me. Win-win. It IS an honest living. 
If YOU want to be a company sucker, that is YOUR decision.


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

BBQ said:


> That is the same logic a thief uses. Honest people are suckers because they work for a living.


1st prize spin of the day.:laughing:


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

BBQ said:


> So if you were to travel for work you would expect OT for the hours spent at the hotel?
> 
> You would be away from your family for your employer so it must be work.:laughing:


Obviously not, but you knew that anyhow. Pretty desperate to prove you don't suck the company p***s.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

big2bird said:


> Same thing. If the company says" Drop what your doing and drive to Bakersfield Sunday", I get DT + milage, BECAUSE, I am doing what I have been instructed to do. It IS the same thing. I am not home watching football, I am doing what I was told for the wages per the agreement. They KNOW this when they send me.
> They make big $$ off of me. Win-win. It IS an honest living.
> If YOU want to be a company sucker, that is YOUR decision.


Keep ranting, keep ignoring the laws I posted.

Drive time is not always work time.

Now in our case when we ask a guy to drop what they are doing and drive somewhere we do pay portal to portal at the rate we bill out. 1.5 or 2. 

On the other hand I gave a very specific example of when we would pay drive time but not at OT rates.


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

BBQ said:


> So if you were to travel for work you would expect OT for the hours spent at the hotel?
> 
> You would be away from your family for your employer so it must be work.:laughing:


Even in the union travel time is only paid one way unless you are in a company truck and are returning back to the shop


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

big2bird said:


> Obviously not, but you knew that anyhow. Pretty desperate to prove you don't suck the company p***s.


Desperate is resorting to name calling, but it is in the union play book. :laughing:


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

robnj772 said:


> Even in the union travel time is only paid one way unless you are in a company truck and are returning back to the shop


Wrong again. I get TT and milage out of town there, and back again. Maybe if you had stuck around long enough you would know that.


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

BBQ said:


> Keep ranting, keep ignoring the laws I posted.
> 
> Drive time is not always work time.
> 
> ...


Not laws, my agreement. In my agreement, drive time IS work time.


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

BBQ said:


> Desperate is resorting to name calling, but it is in the union play book. :laughing:


Actually no, it's not. It's just using another of your tactics. You do it all the time.


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## pudge565 (Dec 8, 2007)

BBQ here are two sections from the FLSA that throw your argument out the window.

"§785.38 Travel that is all in the day's work.
Time spent by an employee in travel as part of his principal activity, such as travel from job site to job site during the workday, must be counted as hours worked. Where an employee is required to report at a meeting place to receive instructions or to perform other work there, or to pick up and to carry tools, the travel from the designated place to the work place is part of the day's work, and must be counted as hours worked regardless of contract, custom, or practice. If an employee normally finishes his work on the premises at 5 p.m. and is sent to another job which he finishes at 8 p.m. and is required to return to his employer's premises arriving at 9 p.m., all of the time is working time. However, if the employee goes home instead of returning to his employer's premises, the travel after 8 p.m. is home-to-work travel and is not hours worked. (Walling v. Mid-Continent Pipe Line Co., 143 F. 2d 308 (C. A. 10, 1944))"

"§785.41 Work performed while traveling.
Any work which an employee is required to perform while traveling must, of course, be counted as hours worked. An employee who drives a truck, bus, automobile, boat or airplane, *or an employee who is required to ride therein as an assistant or helper, is working while riding,* except during bona fide meal periods or when he is permitted to sleep in adequate facilities furnished by the employer."

I still have not found anything saying they can reduce my pay to minimum wage or just straight time, since you claim that this is true post the proof my friend.


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

big2bird said:


> Wrong again. I get TT and milage out of town there, and back again. Maybe if you had stuck around long enough you would know that.


WRONG!!!!!!

Its written right in the bilaws local 102 IBEW

But thanks again for playing


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

big2bird said:


> Not laws, my agreement. In my agreement, drive time IS work time.


Well no chit, :laughing: if you go back and look at my first post in this thread I had mentioned that my comments did not apply to contracts.

If you have a contract they need to honer it.


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

robnj772 said:


> WRONG!!!!!!
> 
> Its written right in the bilaws local 102 IBEW
> 
> But thanks again for playing


I am not a member of 102, and you certainly are not a member of 441, ergo, your wrong again.
However, you are excedingly good at being wrong.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

pudge565 said:


> BBQ here are two sections from the FLSA that throw your argument out the window.
> 
> "§785.38 Travel that is all in the day's work.
> Time spent by an employee in travel as part of his principal activity, such as travel from job site to job site during the workday, must be counted as hours worked. Where an employee is required to report at a meeting place to receive instructions or to perform other work there, or to pick up and to carry tools, the travel from the designated place to the work place is part of the day's work, and must be counted as hours worked regardless of contract, custom, or practice. If an employee normally finishes his work on the premises at 5 p.m. and is sent to another job which he finishes at 8 p.m. and is required to return to his employer's premises arriving at 9 p.m., all of the time is working time. However, if the employee goes home instead of returning to his employer's premises, the travel after 8 p.m. is home-to-work travel and is not hours worked. (Walling v. Mid-Continent Pipe Line Co., 143 F. 2d 308 (C. A. 10, 1944))"
> ...


Again, if you are right you will win. Will your employer say you were required to be there as a helper?



> I still have not found anything saying they can reduce my pay to minimum wage or just straight time, since you claim that this is true post the proof my friend


I have posted the proof that all drive time is not counted as work time.

The only question is what exactly your role was. To determine what your roll was requires info from both sides not just your side. 

As far as the minimum wage that is all that is required.


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

BBQ said:


> Well no chit, :laughing: if you go back and look at my first post in this thread I had mentioned that my comments did not apply to contracts.
> 
> If you have a contract they need to honer it.


Sorry, I do not read/worship your every post. Hope your ego stays intact.
How do you find time for 30,000 posts of "Hey,look at me" anyhow?


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## pudge565 (Dec 8, 2007)

BBQ said:


> The rules have been posted, it depends on what you are doing. It is not as cut and dry as you are trying to make it.
> 
> Stop be such a liberal DB. :laughing:
> 
> ...





BBQ said:


> I have posted the proof that all drive time is not counted as work time.
> 
> The only question is what exactly your role was. To determine what your roll was requires info from both sides not just your side.
> 
> As far as the minimum wage that is all that is required.


Is the above post the one you are referring to? If so please point out which one says that they can pay less than OT or for that matter which one applies to make this travel non commensurable at all.


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## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

BBQ said:


> Saying no is not a death sentence. We have guys that refuse to travel, we have guys that refuse to work nights yet they still have jobs.





big2bird said:


> Not laws, my agreement. In my agreement, drive time IS work time.


Bingo!

Pudge's employer is not breaking the law. That doesn't make it right what they are doing, but it isn't illegal. There's a difference. Instead of whining about it and needing a union to step in and fight your battles, put your big boy pants on, grow a set, and stand up for yourself.

Is it illegal for an employer to require travel 4 hours a day and only pay straight time? No.

Would I travel 4 hours a day for straight time? Hell no!

Do I need the union to step in and stand up for me? Hell no!

My personal policy is that I will drive an hour each way for free if I'm leaving my house to the job and back to my house. The law is that the company doesn't have to pay travel at all for that scenario. Regardless of the law, I'm not driving more than an hour each way for free.

My personal policy If required to report to the shop in the morning or afternoon is that I get paid from the time I arrive at the shop in the morning(not the time I leave for the job, but the time I show up to the shop) until the time I arrive back at the shop in the afternoon, overtime if applicable.

If these conditions are not agreed to, I refuse the job. This is *my policy*. Not the company policy, not what the law says. I could care less about what is legal or what the company handbook says. If my employer and I can't come to an agreement then I will find a new job. Don't be a pussie and cry to the union to fight your battles, be a man and stand up for yourself. Instead of whining about the company policy, do something about it.


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## pudge565 (Dec 8, 2007)

BBQ said:


> Again, if you are right you will win. Will your employer say you were required to be there as a helper?
> 
> My title is Electrician's Helper so kind of hard to deny I was there as a helper.
> 
> ...


4 Char


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

big2bird said:


> I am not a member of 102, and you certainly are not a member of 441, ergo, your wrong again. However, you are excedingly good at being wrong.


Sooooooo then how do you say I am wrong you don't know what 102s bi laws say.

When you find the rest of your brain cells try reposting


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

pudge565 said:


> My title is Electrician's Helper so kind of hard to deny I was there as a helper.


It does not matter what your title is, what matters is what you are doing.

If your only function was to ride, that is not subject to OT.







> Moot point the drive is "all in a days work" and is required to be counted as hours worked.


So why are you wasting time with me and not chasing your money?

I will tell you this, if I was as sure as you are I had been screwed I would be going after it. 





> You have yet to show me proof that they can drop my normal hourly wage to minimum if the so feel for the travel time. Please do show me the proof.


Get back to me when you have gotten this OT back pay. :laughing:


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

EBFD6 said:


> Don't be a pussie and cry to the union to fight your battles, be a man and stand up for yourself. Instead of whining about the company policy, do something about it.


I'm crying all the way to the bank.
I made ****load of $$ this year, with 3 months off.
In 3 years, I will make a ****load on my pension. 
AND, I just watered the front lawn in shorts and flip flops.
Try doing that in Mass. this time of year.
A person of BBQ's obvious talent and intelligence would do well here, but justifying inferior wages/conditions over and over in the name of integrity is BS.
Keep digging that work truck out of the snow, while I watch NASCAR today.
I have to work tommarow in a local mall, staring at all the girls still in shorts and halter tops. Life is tough.


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

big2bird said:


> I'm crying all the way to the bank. I made ****load of $$ this year, with 3 months off. In 3 years, I will make a ****load on my pension. AND, I just watered the front lawn in shorts and flip flops. Try doing that in Mass. this time of year. A person of BBQ's obvious talent and intelligence would do well here, but justifying inferior wages/conditions over and over in the name of integrity is BS. Keep digging that work truck out of the snow, while I watch NASCAR today. I have to work tommarow in a local mall, staring at all the girls still in shorts and halter tops. Life is tough.


 Ok well lets all pretend to live by your ideals SHARE YOUR WEALTH MOFO !!!!!!!!!

Everyone claim how much of his wealth we are entitled to....


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## pudge565 (Dec 8, 2007)

BBQ said:


> It does not matter what your title is, what matters is what you are doing.
> 
> If your only function was to ride, that is not subject to OT.
> 
> ...



jdjd


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

robnj772 said:


> Ok well lets all pretend to live by your ideals SHARE YOUR WEALTH MOFO !!!!!!!!!
> 
> Everyone claim how much of his wealth we are entitled to....


When your business goes under because your an azz to everyone, I'll buy you some food stamps.:laughing:


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

big2bird said:


> When your business goes under because your an azz to everyone, I'll buy you some food stamps.:laughing:


Asshurt ?


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

pudge565 said:


> jdjd


Pudge, you are not really asking for proof that your company can lower your pay at anytime right?

They can drop it as low as the required minimum at any time for any reason.

The only question is could they do it without letting you know first.


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## DIYer4Life (Nov 11, 2013)

BBQ said:


> Pudge, you are not really asking for proof that your company can lower your pay at anytime right?
> 
> They can drop it as low as the required minimum at any time for any reason.
> 
> *The only question is could they do it without letting you know first.*


And like I told him many months ago, the employer will say that they told him and produce a copy of a notice that they sent to him :whistling2:


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## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

BBQ said:


> Pudge, you are not really asking for proof that your company can lower your pay at anytime right?
> 
> They can drop it as low as the required minimum at any time for any reason.
> 
> The only question is could they do it without letting you know first.


They can reduce your hourly pay, travel pay, poop time pay, pay a different rate for rough wiring versus finish, etc... basically what ever they want.

I do not know the wording of the law and am way too lazy to look it up, so I'm basically pulling this out of my azz and could be totally wrong. But......I believe (with no proof to back this up), that the company must notify you in writing at least one pay period in advance of reducing your pay. However, if they wish to pay a reduced rate for travel (all the way down to minimum wage if they want) all they would need to do is make it company policy and put it into the company handbook, and obviously give proper notice if this were a change in policy.

Again, I'll repeat what I said before, just because the company can legally do something doesn't mean it's right or that I agree with it. However it is up to the employee to stand up for himself or find a new employer if something suitable to both parties can't be worked out.


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

robnj772 said:


> Asshurt ?


Yet wrong again. But we are used to it.:laughing:


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

EBFD6 said:


> They can reduce your hourly pay, travel pay, poop time pay, pay a different rate for rough wiring versus finish, etc... basically what ever they want.


Sounds like a good arguement for the unions to me.


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## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

big2bird said:


> Sounds like a good arguement for the unions to me.


I'm a grownup, I can negotiate my own deal. I don't care what anyone else does. If they can't stand up for themselves and allow the company to take advantage of them that's their problem. I will never understand the union mentality. A bunch of supposedly grown men that pay some organization to talk to their boss for them because they are afraid to do it themselves. If that's what you're into great, it's just not for me.


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## DIYer4Life (Nov 11, 2013)

EBFD6 said:


> I'm a grownup, I can negotiate my own deal. I don't care what anyone else does. If they can't stand up for themselves and allow the company to take advantage of them that's their problem. I will never understand the union mentality. A bunch of supposedly grown men that pay some organization to talk to their boss for them because they are afraid to do it themselves. If that's what you're into great, it's just not for me.


Like I said the other day this mentality is lame and ignorant.

Do you stand up for yourself in court? Or do you hire a lawyer to do what he does best?

Do you do your own taxes? Or do you pay an accountant because he will get more a higher refund than his fee costs?

Would you hire a headhunter to find you a good job at a high salary that you couldn't find on your own?

If you were in the sports or entertainment industry, would you hire an agent who could get you the better jobs and negotiate better pay?

Yes, huh? So if the opportunity arises to pay a few bucks in dues to a union in order to get a higher compensation package, why do you sudden change your mind and pound your chest proclaiming how you can do it on your own? 

Saying that a union member is "afraid" to negotiate for themselves is a silly and childish thing to say. Grow up and use common sense when you speak.


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

DIYer4Life said:


> Like I said the other day this mentality is lame and ignorant.
> 
> Do you stand up for yourself in court? Or do you hire a lawyer to do what he does best?
> 
> ...


Well said. Kudos.


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## 347sparky (May 14, 2012)

A few years ago I had to drive 4 hours one way to a service call on a Saturday. Problem was already taken care of before I got there, so I had to turn around and go home. Turned in 8 hours OT for that. All day Saturday is overtime on our contract, so if I worked 40 or just 1 hour during the week it is still OT.


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## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

DIYer4Life said:


> Like I said the other day this mentality is lame and ignorant.
> 
> Do you stand up for yourself in court? Or do you hire a lawyer to do what he does best?
> 
> ...


Apples and oranges.

I am not a lawyer or an accountant. I am not qualified to represent myself in those areas. 

I am however qualified to know when I am being screwed by my employer or not. I am qualified to determine if my pay, benefits, and working conditions are satisfactory to me. I am qualified to sit down with my employer and negotiate my own deal.

If you need the union to negotiate for you that's ok. I don't. 

Do you bring the B.A. with you when you go car shopping too, or do you negotiate with the salesman yourself. Maybe have your wife do it?


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

347sparky said:


> A few years ago I had to drive 4 hours one way to a service call on a Saturday. Problem was already taken care of before I got there, so I had to turn around and go home. Turned in 8 hours OT for that. All day Saturday is overtime on our contract, so if I worked 40 or just 1 hour during the week it is still OT.


And you company billed them for it, paid you for your time, and everyone was happy.
But a merit shop would claim foul, tell you they have issues collecting, and try to pay you less. (And pocket the difference).:laughing:


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

I pay 1.5 on nights, anything over 40 and Saturday's and 2X on Sundays. I charge the same. I try everything I can to avoid overtime. Guys need time of. Money is not everything.

I do pay full bore for road time as long as they are in my vehicle. If they grab a beer on the way home then it is on their time. Yea,yea I know but it happens.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

big2bird said:


> And you company billed them for it, paid you for your time, and everyone was happy.
> But a merit shop would claim foul, tell you they have issues collecting, and try to pay you less. (And pocket the difference).:laughing:


Easily the most uninformed post of the year. Pure lies.


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

EBFD6 said:


> Maybe have your wife do it?


The wife. She can sometimes get it for free just so she will leave.:laughing::laughing:


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

sbrn33 said:


> Easily the most uninformed post of the year. Pure lies.


Nope. Seen it before.
I know a great many people in this business, both union and not.
I have been with them while they drink and brag about ****ing their guys.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

big2bird said:


> Nope. Seen it before.


Bullsiit. This is what your "brothers" told you.


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## pudge565 (Dec 8, 2007)

DIYer4Life said:


> And like I told him many months ago, the employer will say that they told him and produce a copy of a notice that they sent to him :whistling2:


Which if it does not have my signature will hold no water with the hours and wage.


----------



## DIYer4Life (Nov 11, 2013)

EBFD6 said:


> Apples and oranges.
> 
> I am not a lawyer or an accountant. I am not qualified to represent myself in those areas.


 It's not apples and oranges, it's the same exact thing. 

Paying someone else for their services to get you something better than you could get on your own. It makes sense in all situations.



> I am however qualified to know when I am being screwed by my employer or not. I am qualified to determine if my pay, benefits, and working conditions are satisfactory to me. I am qualified to sit down with my employer and negotiate my own deal.


 Or, you can pay a team of negotiators to negotiate and even better deal. 



> If you need the union to negotiate for you that's ok. I don't.


 No one needs it, just like you don't need a lawyer or accountant. But it's smart practice.



> Do you bring the B.A. with you when you go car shopping too, or do you negotiate with the salesman yourself. Maybe have your wife do it?


First of all, I am not in the union anymore, so I have no BA, second of all, when car shopping, I use services to find the vehicles at the best prices without me having to go deal with the salesman. You see how that works? :laughing:


----------



## DIYer4Life (Nov 11, 2013)

pudge565 said:


> Which if it does not have my signature will hold no water with the hours and wage.


Who says a notice needs your signature??


----------



## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

347sparky said:


> A few years ago I had to drive 4 hours one way to a service call on a Saturday. Problem was already taken care of before I got there, so I had to turn around and go home. Turned in 8 hours OT for that. All day Saturday is overtime on our contract, so if I worked 40 or just 1 hour during the week it is still OT.





big2bird said:


> And you company billed them for it, paid you for your time, and everyone was happy.
> But a merit shop would claim foul, tell you they have issues collecting, and try to pay you less. (And pocket the difference).:laughing:


It would be the exact same situation for us. When on call I get paid overtime from the time I receive the call until I back the van into the driveway. Also would be overtime regardless of how many hours worked that week. The same deal, yet I don't have to pay a 3rd party (union) to negotiate for me.


----------



## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

sbrn33 said:


> Bullsiit. This is what your "brothers" told you.


I turned in $1,500,000 in billing one day. The same day my boss told me "I'm not making any money." He got in his Rolls Royce and drove off. Dumb bastard never did fire me. He retired. :blink::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


----------



## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

big2bird said:


> Nope. Seen it before.
> I know a great many people in this business, both union and not.
> I have been with them while they drink and brag about ****ing their guys.


Another tall tale from the hall. You guys should publish a book. You could call it "Fairytales from the Hall"


----------



## pudge565 (Dec 8, 2007)

DIYer4Life said:


> Who says a notice needs your signature??


The board is going to tell them it does or else there is no way they can prove they actually gave it to me. Remember in labor disputes the burden of proof is on the employer.

ETA: It's a moot point since they haven't been paying me minimum wage, either way it's a seperate issue from the OT pay.


----------



## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

EBFD6 said:


> It would be the exact same situation for us. When on call I get paid overtime from the time I receive the call until I back the van into the driveway. Also would be overtime regardless of how many hours worked that week. The same deal, yet I don't have to pay a 3rd party (union) to negotiate for me.


Tell you what. Eliminate all unions, install all Republicans, and see how quick we ship you trainloads of Mexicans who will do your job for all straight time. Don't believe me? Shop at Wally World. Coming to a theater near you faster than you think.


----------



## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

EBFD6 said:


> Another tall tale from the hall. You guys should publish a book. You could call it "Fairytales from the Hall"


Sorry. Real world truith. I rarely go to the hall. I pay my dues online.:laughing:


----------



## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

big2bird said:


> Tell you what. Eliminate all unions, install all Republicans, and see how quick we ship you trainloads of Mexicans who will do your job for all straight time. Don't believe me? Shop at Wally World. Coming to a theater near you faster than you think.


Yeah, because that's what would happen. You guys are too funny. The self importance of the union is almost unbelievable. Once the union is dead (hopefully sooner than later) we'll be just fine without you.


----------



## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

EBFD6 said:


> Yeah, because that's what would happen. You guys are too funny. The self importance of the union is almost unbelievable. Once the union is dead (hopefully sooner than later) we'll be just fine without you.


 Good luck. I have been watching it happen here for almost 60 years. It's just a matter of time.


----------



## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

big2bird said:


> Nope. Seen it before.
> I know a great many people in this business, both union and not.
> I have been with them while they drink and brag about ****ing their guys.



and if union guys were as smart or worked as hard as their merit shop counter parts they wouldn't need to lobby for all those laws protecting their lazy asses.


----------



## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

I am retireing at 62 with a fat pension. I consider that pretty smart.
As for working hard, no one said you did not work hard. You just don't make what I do, and if YOU think that is brilliant, hold onto that dream.


----------



## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

EBFD6 said:


> Yeah, because that's what would happen. You guys are too funny. The self importance of the union is almost unbelievable. Once the union is dead (hopefully sooner than later) we'll be just fine without you.


On the flip side, the fact that all you non union folks think that you are so awesome and irreplaceable is comical. 

The difference between union and non union is we know we are going to get laid off and move on.

You are being paid the least the contractor can get away with paying you and treating you with the barest minimum of concern...and you are happy for it. Grateful for it. Willing to do pretty much anything for it.

Think about it...can your contractor pay you a buck an hour more? He can..can't he. Why doesn't he if you are so awesome.

I truly hope that someday unions are no longer needed - because that will mean contractors finally started treating everyone fairly.


----------



## pudge565 (Dec 8, 2007)

There are great non union shops out there, there are also really ****ty union shops out there, my guess would be less on the union side but they do exist.


----------



## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

pudge565 said:


> There are great non union shops out there, there are also really ****ty union shops out there, my guess would be less on the union side but they do exist.


That would be a fair statement.


----------



## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

eejack said:


> On the flip side, the fact that all you non union folks think that you are so awesome and irreplaceable is comical.
> 
> The difference between union and non union is we know we are going to get laid off and move on.
> 
> ...


Funny thing is they are always talking about drinking the union kool-aid, yet, they swallow the corporate line hook ,line, and sinker all day long.


----------



## pudge565 (Dec 8, 2007)

big2bird said:


> That would be a fair statement.


I have a way of finding the ****ty non union places. The interview I had Friday is for a union place (maintenance electrician).


----------



## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

I hear the pitter patter of rodent feet now. Watch out Eejack, they are sending down reinforcements. "Rat pack mentallity.":laughing:


----------



## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

eejack said:


> You are being paid the least the contractor can get away with paying you and treating you with the barest minimum of concern...and you are happy for it. Grateful for it. Willing to do pretty much anything for it.
> 
> Think about it...can your contractor pay you a buck an hour more? He can..can't he. Why doesn't he if you are so awesome.
> 
> I truly hope that someday unions are no longer needed - because that will mean contractors finally started treating everyone fairly.


That dollar your referring to is a dollar the merit shop pays when they are slow as well, not just when there is work. Its a dollar paid every hour all year. Not just a dollar they pay when they have work.


I think a lot of you union slugs get the wrong idea about merit shops because your used to the way union cons work. In the real world where the majority of electricians work the contractor has to take into consideration the cost of carrying an employee when they are slow and the higher number of non billable hours. So that Dollar over an average lifetime employment of 10 years is closer to $25000 - $30000 depending on its associated burdens.


----------



## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

big2bird said:


> Funny thing is *they* are always talking about drinking the union kool-aid, yet, they swallow the corporate line hook ,line, and sinker all day long.


They huh?


----------



## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

robnj772 said:


> WRONG!!!!!!
> 
> Its written right in the bilaws local 102 IBEW
> 
> But thanks again for playing


That's actually something that would be spelled out in the agreement and not the by- laws.


----------



## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

Goldagain said:


> That dollar your referring to is a dollar the merit shop pays when they are slow as well, not just when there is work. Its a dollar paid every hour all year. Not just a dollar they pay when they have work.
> 
> 
> I think a lot of you union slugs get the wrong idea about merit shops because your used to the way union cons work. In the real world where the majority of electricians work the contractor has to take into consideration the cost of carrying an employee when they are slow and the higher number of non billable hours. So that Dollar over an average lifetime employment of 10 years is closer to $25000 - $30000 depending on its associated burdens.


BS. My non union shop owner friends sit the guys home when it's slow. Try again.


----------



## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

Loose Neutral said:


> That's actually something that would be spelled out in the agreement and not the by- laws.


I know. He is wrong again. Get used to it.


----------



## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

EBFD6 said:


> Bingo!
> 
> Pudge's employer is not breaking the law. That doesn't make it right what they are doing, but it isn't illegal. There's a difference. Instead of whining about it and needing a union to step in and fight your battles, put your big boy pants on, grow a set, and stand up for yourself.
> 
> ...


It's not aboutt needing anyone to do any others business, it's just a good business deal. You don't have to like it, but it works for many. I usually find guys like you that say how tough they are, usually are the opposite. I'll bet you wear pink underwear.


----------



## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

big2bird said:


> I know. He is wrong again. Get used to it.


Just proves most these haters are just that. They have no clue as to the facts.


----------



## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

big2bird said:


> BS. My non union shop owner friends sit the guys home when it's slow. Try again.


Is your friend a contractor of reasonable size comparable to most union contractors? Because that simply isn't normal among merrit shop contractors.


----------



## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

Goldagain said:


> Is your friend a contractor of reasonable size comparable to most union contractors? Because that simply isn't normal among merrit shop contractors.


One has 6 men, the other has 40 or so. They all try to keep them busy, but you can only pay out of pocket so many times to clean the shop.


----------



## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

eejack said:


> On the flip side, the fact that all you non union folks think that you are so awesome and irreplaceable is comical.


I am awesome, but that's not the point of this thread. Let's stay on topic. If you want to discuss my awesomeness you'll have to start a new thread.


eejack said:


> The difference between union and non union is we know we are going to get laid off and move on.


I don't understand this thinking. Why would I want to be in a situation where getting laid off all the time is a fact of life. In 15 years I have been laid off once and that was because the company I was working for closed it's doors and laid off a couple hundred guys overnight. When I was laid off, I didn't have to sign some book and wait my turn behind a couple hundred other guys before I could work again. I went right out and started knocking on doors (figuratively) until I had a new job. I was out of work for a total of 4 days.


eejack said:


> You are being paid the least the contractor can get away with paying you and treating you with the barest minimum of concern...and you are happy for it. Grateful for it. Willing to do pretty much anything for it.


My boss pays me a rate that I negotiated with him. I am happy with it as is he. I agree to give him an hour of my labor and he agrees to pay me the dollar amount we agreed upon. If I am unhappy with that deal or think I can do better I am free to renegotiate or look for a better deal elsewhere.


eejack said:


> Think about it...can your contractor pay you a buck an hour more? He can..can't he. Why doesn't he if you are so awesome.


My boss pays me what he needs to keep me happy. If he can find someone to do my job cheaper that's his perogotive. If one of his competitors is willing to pay me a dollar more I am free to go work for them. That's the way the free market works. The contractor is always trying to get the most labor for the money he spends, the worker is always trying to get the most money for his labor. If either side is unhappy with the agreement or thinks they can do better, they are free to explore their options. 

The bottom line is my boss has jobs that need to be done and he needs qualified workers to do those jobs. Qualified workers cost money. If he doesn't pay competitively with what other companies in the area are paying he won't have any guys to do the jobs. We'd all be working for his competition instead. It wouldn't make much sense from a business perspective for him to try and pay less than market value for our labor. It's hard to make any money if the jobs aren't getting done.


eejack said:


> I truly hope that someday unions are no longer needed - because that will mean contractors finally started treating everyone fairly.


Something we can agree on.


----------



## DIYer4Life (Nov 11, 2013)

Loose Neutral said:


> Just proves most these haters are just that. They have no clue as to the facts.


Wait a second, you are here trying to insult someone for not knowing "facts" because they mistook something being in the bylaws and the agreement?

After 15 years of working union and 17 years being a member, I still don't care enough to know if something is in one or the other. And I have the little binder with both the bylaws and agreement sitting right here on my shelf :laughing:


----------



## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

I hear the train a comin, it's comin round the bend...............:laughing:


----------



## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

big2bird said:


> One has 6 men, the other has 40 or so. They all try to keep them busy, but you can only pay out of pocket so many times to clean the shop.


I don't believe you, I think your lieing to try to make your point but even if your not it isn't typical of merit shop contractors.


----------



## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

Loose Neutral said:


> I'll bet you wear pink underwear.


I do not. They're white. Only the flowers printed on them are pink!

And stop peeking in my windows, pervert.


----------



## DIYer4Life (Nov 11, 2013)

A lot of people here have seen my tighty whities.


----------



## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

big2bird said:


> One has 6 men, the other has 40 or so. They all try to keep them busy, but you can only pay out of pocket so many times to clean the shop.


Was it not in this very thread where someone complained that union members got paid for doing nothing, yet now it appears that it is standard practice for non union contractors to pay their men to do busy work so they don't lose them?

If we could harness the spin we could power the world...:thumbup:


----------



## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

Goldagain said:


> I don't believe you, I think your lieing to try to make your point but even if your not it isn't typical of merit shop contractors.


I have no motive to lie to you. NO contractor can survive long paying guys to do nothing. It's unsustainable, bad business, and the guys know that. It's just part of being a contractor. Feast or famine.


----------



## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

eejack said:


> Was it not in this very thread where someone complained that union members got paid for doing nothing, yet now it appears that it is standard practice for non union contractors to pay their men to do busy work so they don't lose them?
> 
> If we could harness the spin we could power the world...:thumbup:


Amen.

Sound's LAZY to me, eh Eejack?


----------



## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

DIYer4Life said:


> A lot of people here have seen my tighty whities.


----------



## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

eejack said:


> Was it not in this very thread where someone complained that union members got paid for doing nothing, yet now it appears that it is standard practice for non union contractors to pay their men to do busy work so they don't lose them?
> 
> If we could harness the spin we could power the world...:thumbup:


Yes

Union = wanting to get paid overtime for riding in a vehicle doing nothing

non-union = doing busy work, key word being work, willing to put in a days labor to continue getting a paycheck rather than getting laid off

What is it that confuses you here? Seems pretty cut and dry to me.


----------



## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

DIYer4Life said:


> Wait a second, you are here trying to insult someone for not knowing "facts" because they mistook something being in the bylaws and the agreement?
> 
> After 15 years of working union and 17 years being a member, I still don't care enough to know if something is in one or the other. And I have the little binder with both the bylaws and agreement sitting right here on my shelf :laughing:


I didn't insult, I just merely stated the facts. There a lot of misconceptions here about the union.


----------



## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

eejack said:


> Was it not in this very thread where someone complained that union members got paid for doing nothing, yet now it appears that it is standard practice for non union contractors to pay their men to do busy work so they don't lose them?
> 
> If we could harness the spin we could power the world...:thumbup:


Perhaps I derailed the thread or maybe your generalizing. My point was specific and directed at big birds generalization that my comment to you about the cost of a dollar being bull****. Beyond that I didn't really take part in this thread beyond calling union workers names and generalizing them as lazy and lower quality workers then their non union counter parts. Obviously if you been here more then a week you know I don't believe that but the generalizations some of you make about Merit shops and non-union workers are just as ridiculous. A lot of you cry about members here are"anti union" I think thats true to degree but I think most of us are just tired of hearing Anti non union Rhetoric from some of the forum members who are union.

Basically if you don't want people to make generalizations about you slugs then lay off the generalizations about the non union side.

And lets not patronize each other with the "oh there is good on both sides and bad blah blah blah" you don't ant to hear it anymore then we do. There are differences, clear differences everyone gets that.


----------



## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

EBFD6 said:


> I do not. They're white. Only the flowers printed on them are pink!
> I knew it.


----------



## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

On that note you phucksticks stay here and tell everyone how great the union is by bashing the way the majority of us make a living so you can come back later and cry about how all the members here don't like the union or wtf ever.

I'm outta here.


----------



## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

Goldagain said:


> Perhaps I derailed the thread or maybe your generalizing. My point was specific and directed at big birds generalization that my comment to you about the cost of a dollar being bull****. Beyond that I didn't really take part in this thread beyond calling union workers names and generalizing them as lazy and lower quality workers then their non union counter parts. Obviously if you been here more then a week you know I don't believe that but the generalizations some of you make about Merit shops and non-union workers are just as ridiculous. A lot of you cry about members here are"anti union" I think thats true to degree but I think most of us are just tired of hearing Anti non union Rhetoric from some of the forum members who are union.
> 
> Basically if you don't want people to make generalizations about you slugs then lay off the generalizations about the non union side.
> 
> And lets not patronize each other with the "oh there is good on both sides and bad blah blah blah" you don't ant to hear it anymore then we do. There are differences, clear differences everyone gets that.


I think the biggest difference people need to understand, is the difference between a construction union and a municipal union. I think a lot of the hate is pointed at a union member period and most don't understand the difference between the two.


----------



## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

DIYer4Life said:


> A lot of people here have seen my tighty whities.


Turn on your cam.


----------



## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

big2bird said:


> I am retireing at 62 with a fat pension. I consider that pretty smart.
> As for working hard, no one said you did not work hard. You just don't make what I do, and if YOU think that is brilliant, hold onto that dream.


And the way obama care is about to ass rape our economy you will be flipping burgers in five years without two dimes to rub together just to buy food.

And you have no F-ing idea what anyone makes other then your fellow brothers so STFU about how much you have and how much you make, you sound like a bored housewife on facebook starting lists to one up the other bitches on her friend's list


----------



## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

DIYer4Life said:


> A lot of people here have seen my tighty whities.


No that was steve,

a lot of people here saw stave in his tighty whities


----------



## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

Loose Neutral said:


> I think the biggest difference people need to understand, is the difference between a construction union and a municipal union. I think a lot of the hate is pointed at a union member period and most don't understand the difference between the two.


I think we had this convo before loose and we understood each other pretty well. If the rest of your brothers talked to non union and merrit shop guys the way you do your market share would be a lot higher.

Like I said tho I need to GTFO of this thread before i express my opinion in a way that violates the TOS.


----------



## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

Scott must be sick today. :laughing:


----------



## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

robnj772 said:


> And the way obama care is about to ass rape our economy you will be flipping burgers in five years without two dimes to rub together just to buy food.
> 
> And you have no F-ing idea what anyone makes other then your fellow brothers so STFU about how much you have and how much you make, you sound like a bored housewife on facebook starting lists to one up the other bitches on her friend's list


Internet tough guy?

I eat punks like you for lunch.


----------



## DIYer4Life (Nov 11, 2013)

robnj772 said:


> No that was steve,
> 
> a lot of people here saw stave in his tighty whities


I wasn't wearing them when I posted pics.


----------



## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

robnj772 said:


> And the way obama care is about to ass rape our economy you will be flipping burgers in five years without two dimes to rub together just to buy food.


Wrong again. Lord it's a record, even for you.


----------



## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

Goldagain said:


> I think we had this convo before loose and we understood each other pretty well. If the rest of your brothers talked to non union and merrit shop guys the way you do your market share would be a lot higher.
> 
> Like I said tho I need to GTFO of this thread before i express my opinion in a way that violates the TOS.


Be well Gold. Seek you happy place Wink Wink . Peace.


----------



## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

big2bird said:


> Scott must be sick today. :laughing:


Or something better to do.


----------



## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

Loose Neutral said:


> Or something better to do.


Speaking of that NASCAR is on. Later


----------



## Vic. (Nov 12, 2013)

I just want to point out that I was in no way responsible for the out come of this thread.


----------



## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

Vic. said:


> I just want to point out that I was in no way responsible for the out come of this thread.


We know, it's Harry's fault


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Vic. said:


> I just want to point out that I was in no way responsible for the out come of this thread.


:laughing:


----------



## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

big2bird said:


> Speaking of that NASCAR is on. Later


Non Athletic Sports Centered Around ********


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

big2bird said:


> Speaking of that NASCAR is on. Later


You can't watch that, they have rejected the unions. :laughing:


----------



## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

BBQ said:


> You can't watch that, they have rejected the unions. :laughing:


Nascar is from NC a right to work state. That's why they're just going around in circles all day.


----------



## Vic. (Nov 12, 2013)

robnj772 said:


> Non Athletic Sports Centered Around ********


******** are like bananas. They're born green, turn yellow, and die rotten.:laughing: 
Jk....


----------



## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

big2bird said:


> BS. My non union shop owner friends sit the guys home when it's slow. Try again.


Bird, you're actually admitting that you have friends that are non union! Amazing. Will you get in trouble for posting something like this on a public forum!:laughing::laughing:


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Loose Neutral said:


> Nascar is from NC a right to work state. That's why they're just going around in circles all day.


Making huge salaries without the union.

Yeah, that right to work thing is really killing NASCAR. :laughing:


----------



## Vic. (Nov 12, 2013)

NASCAR might be the worse thing to watch on TV buy I hear its an awesome event to witness in person.


----------



## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

Vic. said:


> NASCAR might be the worse thing to watch on TV buy I hear its an awesome event to witness in person.


Eh I been there, it's like a bad episode of " the people of Walmart"


----------



## Vic. (Nov 12, 2013)

Eh, I figured as much.


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

big2bird said:


> I hear the pitter patter of rodent feet now. Watch out Eejack, they are sending down reinforcements. "Rat pack mentallity.":laughing:


More name calling. You should be banned for a week. If only for your lack of spelling ability.


----------



## pudge565 (Dec 8, 2007)

Vic. said:


> NASCAR might be the worse thing to watch on TV buy I hear its an awesome event to witness in person.


Its only cool for the crashes.


----------



## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

sbrn33 said:


> More name calling. You should be banned for a week. If only for your lack of spelling ability.


Well he didn't belong to e. J. T so that will never hsppen


----------



## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

robnj772 said:


> Non Athletic Sports Centered Around ********


Sport, not sports. Wrong again.:laughing:


----------



## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

wendon said:


> Bird, you're actually admitting that you have friends that are non union! Amazing. Will you get in trouble for posting something like this on a public forum!:laughing::laughing:


Why is that? Unions embrace the 1st ammendment.


----------



## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

BBQ said:


> Making huge salaries without the union.


They have lawyers and agents. I call that representation.

BTW, a fellow native Southern Californian cleaned their clocks for the 6th time in 8 years.


----------



## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

robnj772 said:


> Well he didn't belong to e. J. T so that will never hsppen


It's "happen". Did you graduate first grade?

Perhaps you could be banned for bad grammer as well.


----------



## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

big2bird said:


> Why is that? Unions embrace the 1st ammendment.


Kinda interesting, Bird, but about the only time we hear from you is when someone bashes your beloved union!! I like poking at you guys just because it gets such a rise out of you. Personally I've never had a problem with the union as they just simply aren't in my area unless they come from a ways away. We have a lot of 1 and 2 man shops around here and they'd have a hard time competing. They also have no impact on the wage scale in my area either. The only business that was union chased them out years ago when they went on strike and ruined a good paying job for themselves. About the only time you're going to see them around here is on a large hospital, school, etc. project that none of us smaller guys could or would want. I don't agree with eejack that most people support the union cause as it was proven in Wisconsin when the union tried to recall the governor and found out what the people thought of it. They also made a bad name for themselves for the way they behaved at the Capitol building. :no::no::no:
What a shame


----------



## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

wendon said:


> I don't agree with eejack that most people support the union cause as it was proven in Wisconsin when the union tried to recall the governor and found out what the people thought of it. They also made a bad name for themselves for the way they behaved at the Capitol building. :no::no::no:
> What a shame


The polls I see are nationwide, it is entirely likely that regions will vary off of those numbers ( I can find no polls that are specifically Wisconsin ).

The recall of Walker doesn't prove or disprove anything. The alternative candidate was very weak. 

Additionally the June 5th recall election swung control of the state senate to the Democrats, hardly a mandate for Walker.

As far as behavior, that gets into the subjective, personally I believe the late night voting and use of a budget ( non-amendable ) bill for non budget purposes seemed very cheesy and underhanded, certainly ignoring the norms of government - but that is just my opinion.


----------



## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

big2bird said:


> It's "happen". Did you graduate first grade? Perhaps you could be banned for bad grammer as well.


 Because I hit the letter next to the one I meant to. Grasping at straws ?? And you are ass hurt!

Must suck to be you!


----------



## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

robnj772 said:


> Because I hit the letter next to the one I meant to. Grasping at straws ?? And you are ass hurt!
> 
> Must suck to be you!


Wrong yet again. At least you are consistent.


----------



## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

eejack said:


> The polls I see are nationwide, it is entirely likely that regions will vary off of those numbers ( I can find no polls that are specifically Wisconsin ).
> 
> The recall of Walker doesn't prove or disprove anything. The alternative candidate was very weak.
> 
> ...


As a native Wisconsinite I disagree with you. The recall of Walker proved a lot of things. A lot of people pretty well ignored the public unions other than to make jokes about them. For example: What's the slowest way to die? Get run over by a county truck! After the recall attempt and the shameful way the unions behaved a lot of people were turned off by them and realized how broke the system was. Why did so many teachers etc. bail out of the union when they were given the opportunity???? If they all loved the union so much why did they turn traitor??? Interesting thing about the polls is that even though a slight majority were favorable to the unions, in reality, union support is at an all time low. 
http://www.gallup.com/poll/157025/labor-union-approval-steady.aspx

Of course then it might depend on who's poll you believe!

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/pub..._have_favorable_view_of_unions_45_unfavorable


----------



## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

wendon said:


> As a native Wisconsinite I disagree with you. The recall of Walker proved a lot of things. A lot of people pretty well ignored the public unions other than to make jokes about them. For example: What's the slowest way to die? Get run over by a county truck! After the recall attempt and the shameful way the unions behaved a lot of people were turned off by them and realized how broke the system was. Why did so many teachers etc. bail out of the union when they were given the opportunity???? If they all loved the union so much why did they turn traitor??? Interesting thing about the polls is that even though a slight majority were favorable to the unions, in reality, union support is at an all time low. http://www.gallup.com/poll/157025/labor-union-approval-steady.aspx Of course then it might depend on who's poll you believe! http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/business/jobs_employment/august_2013/44_have_favorable_view_of_unions_45_unfavorable


You are wrong, all the links in the world mean nothing, if big turd or eejack says they are right, even if they provide no links to back up their statements, you are wrong.

They are entitled to it because they are union.


----------



## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

robnj772 said:


> They are entitled to it because they are union.


:laughing:Need I say it? Sure. Wrong yet again. :laughing:


----------



## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

wendon said:


> Kinda interesting, Bird, but about the only time we hear from you is when someone bashes your beloved union!! I like poking at you guys just because it gets such a rise out of you.


That's all I'm doing. You guys flip out over the rat thing. It's hysterical.:laughing:


----------



## pudge565 (Dec 8, 2007)

Ok I called the wage and hour divison of the US Department of Labor to get clarification on the federal laws. I was told by the representative that the situation is tricky. BBQ you are correct that as a passenger it might not be considered OT but she said it really depends on the full situation.

She said the first step is to determine whether I am covered by the FLSA at all. She said I most likely am as I am participating in interstate commerce, and working on telecommunications. I may be covered at the company level which would require an annual sales of 500k or more which I am fairly certain they meet.

She said the driver is definitely considered working as he is transporting employees and materials for the employer which is a benefit to the employer.

Basically what I got out of it is on a federal level if I file a complaint it will be a very long process because I would have to remember which days I drove, what days I loaded and unloaded materials etc., with probably low pay due to my normally being a passenger, so really not worth it.

I still have no answers on the state level but I suspect that the answers are probably similar.


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## lefleuron (May 22, 2010)

wendon said:


> The only business that was union chased them out years ago when they went on strike and ruined a good paying job for themselves.


 Here is a misconception.

See, the job WAS a good paying job.

Then contract time came, and the company offered something bad.

Like maybe 20% cut in wage, or whatever.

I have been involved in 2 major strikes, and trust me on this- workers dont 

want to strike. You go without pay, maybe a day, maybe forever.( as was the case in your example).

Then their is company revenge- maybe they decide to lay off the bottom 30% after a strike. And that was the case at one place.

In the last 20 years, a vote to strike is a last resort. And every person voting yes to a strike knows it could be the last time they step foot in that building. And with the job market the way it is, that is taken as seriously as death.


----------



## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

big2bird said:


> :laughing:Need I say it? Sure. Wrong yet again. :laughing:


Did your mother have any children that lived?

You are so stupid and pathetic it's embarrassing.

I feel so sorry for your family


----------



## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

robnj772 said:


> Did your mother have any children that lived?
> 
> You are so stupid and pathetic it's embarrassing.
> 
> I feel so sorry for your family


Racist.


----------



## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

wendon said:


> http://www.gallup.com/poll/157025/labor-union-approval-steady.aspx
> 
> Of course then it might depend on who's poll you believe!
> 
> http://www.rasmussenreports.com/pub..._have_favorable_view_of_unions_45_unfavorable


I do not give either gallup or rasmussen any real credibility - they both tend to make up the results they want.

Pew _seems_ fair - unions were less liked a few years ago and are rising in popularity. Gallup had them at 52% for the last couple of years...

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2013/09/02/opinion-of-unions-is-up-membership-down/

It would be really nice if there were completely non biased polling companies because, hey if you watch Fox you use Rasmussen polls and they always jive with Fox - Gallup and CNN...same thing. 

I personally believe part of the problem in the country right now is the news we get is so polarized that if you get your entertainment from one place you don't know you are being lied to and you believe the lies.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

It's pretty simple and no polls are needed

If the union was as popular, as great, as effective as some here claim it is, it would not be in decline. There would be a huge line of people trying to get in.


----------



## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

eejack said:


> I do not give either EEJACK or BIGTURD any real credibility - they both tend to make up the results they want.
> 
> .


Fixed it for you


----------



## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

BBQ said:


> It's pretty simple and no polls are needed
> 
> If the union was as popular, as great, as effective as some here claim it is, it would not be in decline. There would be a huge line of people trying to get in.


I don't think it's in decline because it's not popular, I think it's in decline cause corporate America has waged war on the unions. I know of lots of people who want to be union and as eejack said the trend will soon be changing. Thankfully the union has been good to me and I've been busy collecting other assets, but i feel sorry for the next generation of worker. If the union is not more popular it will come full circle cause everyone will be tired of getting kicked in the mouth.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Loose Neutral said:


> I don't think it's in decline because it's not popular, I think it's in decline cause corporate America has waged war on the unions.


I can't agree, when the workers wanted the unions they made it happen at a time when there was little protection for organizers and certainly the robber barons of the times did all they could .... much more than would be allowed now .... to stand in the way of the unions.


----------



## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

BBQ said:


> It's pretty simple and no polls are needed
> 
> If the union was as popular, as great, as effective as some here claim it is, it would not be in decline.* There would be a huge line of people trying to get in.*




...what percentage of non union electricians have a better overall package than the union? Who is better trained ? Who offers free continuing education

BTW, its Corporate America that wants to see the unions disappear, why is that? ?


----------



## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

BBQ said:


> I can't agree, when the workers wanted the unions they made it happen at a time when there was little protection for organizers and certainly the robber barons of the times did all they could .... much more than would be allowed now .... to stand in the way of the unions.


There is way more money involved now.


----------



## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

big2bird said:


> That's all I'm doing. You guys flip out over the rat thing. It's hysterical.:laughing:


I've never flipped out over the rat thing. I've never even seen a rat erected except in pictures. Do I think that it's childish and immature? You bet! You want to erect a rat in my local town? Go ahead. I'd like to see the reaction. I'd be curious to see what would happen if the union thugs tried ripping out work and/or blocking others from reaching their job site in our rural area!!! :laughing::laughing::no::no::hammer:


----------



## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

lefleuron said:


> Here is a misconception.
> 
> See, the job WAS a good paying job.
> 
> ...


The way I recall the workers were striking for higher wages at a time when a lot of locals had lost their jobs and were glad to step in to a well paying job. Bad move!!! They not only kept the plant running, the company found out they could put out the same amount with less workers.


----------



## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

eejack said:


> I do not give either gallup or rasmussen any real credibility - they both tend to make up the results they want.
> 
> Pew _seems_ fair - unions were less liked a few years ago and are rising in popularity. Gallup had them at 52% for the last couple of years...
> 
> ...


 Actually, the only place you'll get factual, fair, and unbiased news is on ET, correct??:laughing::laughing: Fortunately, most of us still have most of our brain cells and it's not too hard to sort out the truth. Follow the money trail.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

360max said:


> [/B]
> 
> ...what percentage of non union electricians have a better overall package than the union? Who is better trained ? Who offers free continuing education


Certainly overall the union provides better overall packages for the workers.

Yet they are still in decline. 




> BTW, its Corporate America that wants to see the unions disappear, why is that? ?


Of course corporate America is not fond of the unions, they were not fond of the unions when the unions were established and used hired guns to put the organizers down and scare others away.

Yet still at that time the unions prevailed because the general public could see the needs and the reasons for them. They saw the unions as fighting 'the good fight' for basic values. 

Now when the general public hears about the union the perception is much different. It seems often we hear how a police officer has been a real dirt bag but the union prevents any action against them. Now I know any example I give you will pick apart ...... fine. But I know what I see on the news and it s not positive to the union image.



Given enough time I think the pendulum will swing back the other way if corporate America keeps screwing everyone .... which is going to happen but right now it is laughable when folks like eejack ignore the reality. Right now th general public, at least in my area does not seem to very supportive. Certainly Wisconsin confirms that.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Loose Neutral said:


> There is way more money involved now.


Whoh, in today money the companies where much more powerful then anyone is today. They owned politicians as much or more so than now.

The big guys back then would make Bill Gates look like he was slumming.


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

> Originally Posted by 360max
> [/b]
> 
> ...what percentage of non union electricians have a better overall package than the union? Who is better trained ? Who offers free continuing education


I always felt I wanted the most bang for my 40+ hours a week when I finally could get a union job I jumped at it. Many of my friends and fellow workers thought I was nuts. Over the years I have tried to persuade them to join and all most all of them still hold a bitter taste for unions. I meet young men that feel the same way.

I know a few of the reasons, but not all, why men when offered generally better wages and benefits spit on it. These are bitter feelings and deep rooted distrust among many open shop men.

Additionally I live in an area that takes in open shop men quite readily, this is not the case in many areas.

Our local had some forward looking leadership and jumped at the strong construction growth in our area allowing open shop men to join, this only helped our local grow. I think many locals are short sighted and not making it easier for open shop men to join is a mistake. Possibly leading to smaller locals


----------



## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

wendon said:


> Actually, the only place you'll get factual, fair, and unbiased news is on ET, correct??:laughing::laughing: Fortunately, most of us still have most of our brain cells and it's not too hard to sort out the truth. Follow the money trail.


It is tough enough to get factual and fair, forget unbiased.

I find google news spreads it out pretty decently - articles from all over. You do have to read them though - even the ones that you have already decided are nuts - because perspective is important and you need lots of it to see the bias.

Even then, we read it with our own bias - any time I see a Republican make a statement I am predisposed to disbelieve them. It is impossible to avoid.


----------



## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

BBQ said:


> It's pretty simple and no polls are needed
> 
> If the union was as popular, as great, as effective as some here claim it is, it would not be in decline. There would be a huge line of people trying to get in.


We have lines trying to get in. We just don't have the places to put them.

There are many reasons for the decline of unions but this forum is a perfect example of the biggest one.

A lot of hard working smart people have been convinced that collectively bargaining is against their own interest. They will scream about how they are better off without them - yet a rational person would understand how that is not the case.

A lot of money spent to make that happen. Big money turned it into a religion, a crusade against worker rights by putting forth the 'rugged individual' ideal. 

The mantra of "I am better and therefore deserve more than you".

Yet America was built on working together, working as a group toward ideals and goals, not by individual effort. And as a society we have always stuck up for the little guy, helped out those in need...but recently we walk on those people, lower our taxes, not in my backyard.

We became selfish. 

Because big money wanted us to be selfish. 

Because they make more money when we are selfish.


----------



## DIYer4Life (Nov 11, 2013)

eejack said:


> We have lines trying to get in. We just don't have the places to put them.


Exactly. Everyone wants to work for $80/hr. The problem is that is not a realistic number, and that's why your marketshare is almost extinct. 

The vast majority of the people don't want to pay what it costs to keep union people working at their artificially inflated wages.


----------



## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

I didn't become bitter toward unions till i came here. Hell I was union. I just don't like the way the majority of union members talk down to non union workers. They are usually no smarter or any better as an electrician but if your not in a union your a scab or a rat. So, i harass them. And I bid all there work really cheap and take it from them by paying dirt wages and doing everything to the absolute minimum standard. I sleep well knowing i steal a few thousand hours from the guys in my local every year.
Rock on *brothers*!!


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

eejack said:


> We have lines trying to get in. We just don't have the places to put them.


I would say your actual membership numbers are more telling.





> A lot of hard working smart people have been convinced that collectively bargaining is against their own interest. They will scream about how they are better off without them - yet a rational person would understand how that is not the case.


Oh, smart people are just too stupid to make their own decisions.

That make sense. 



> A lot of money spent to make that happen. Big money turned it into a religion, a crusade against worker rights by putting forth the 'rugged individual' ideal.


Listen careful eejack, big money did not cause my feelings toward the unions.

My feelings toward the unions are entirly the result of first hand experience with them.

If the union refuses to realize that is the case with many people they are in a bad spot. 



> The mantra of "I am better and therefore deserve more than you".


Is correct, if I am more productive I deserve more than the others who are not.







> Yet America was built on working together, working as a group toward ideals and goals, not by individual effort. And as a society we have always stuck up for the little guy, helped out those in need...but recently we walk on those people, lower our taxes, not in my backyard.


Would you like a musical accompaniment for that tugging at the heartstrings post? :laughing:

If your posts did not long ago show you where in it for yourself I might actually be touched by that however, we all know you are full of it.


----------



## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

Goldagain said:


> I didn't become bitter toward unions till i came here. Hell I was union. I just don't like the way the majority of union members talk down to non union workers. They are usually no smarter or any better as an electrician but if your not in a union your a scab or a rat. So, i harass them. And I bid all there work really cheap and take it from them by paying dirt wages and doing everything to the absolute minimum standard. I sleep well knowing i steal a few thousand hours from the guys in my local every year.
> Rock on *brothers*!!


I am the exact opposite. Merit shops did not bother me till I started posting here. The "union thug" attitude here is prevalant. 
I love doing side jobs where I take a few crumbs from the local rats.

"And there you have it.":laughing:


----------



## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

BBQ said:


> I would say your actual membership numbers are more telling.


We have been a steady 1800 members for over ten years. 



BBQ said:


> Oh, smart people are just too stupid to make their own decisions.
> 
> That make sense.


Actually it does. When you look at the social implications of societal norms you will find the individual usually follows the herd even when they do not entirely believe the reasoning. Societies shift and change all the time. It was not very long ago that same sex marriage was not even a phrase, yet now it is accepted in many parts of the country.

Now, did anyone just decide they were going to accept it? No. But society shifted that way anyway. Society shifted away from working as a group - hence club memberships went down, unions waned, groups in general got smaller.



BBQ said:


> Listen careful eejack, big money did not cause my feelings toward the unions.
> 
> My feelings toward the unions are entirly the result of first hand experience with them.
> 
> If the union refuses to realize that is the case with many people they are in a bad spot.


Perhaps, but most folks don't have any 'reason' or direct experience to work from.



BBQ said:


> Is correct, if I am more productive I deserve more than the others who are not.


I don't believe that you can obtain anything like your true worth on your own. 



BBQ said:


> Would you like a musical accompaniment for that tugging at the heartstrings post? :laughing:
> 
> If your posts did not long ago show you where in it for yourself I might actually be touched by that however, we all know you are full of it.


I would love to see where I am in it for myself...:laughing:

( okay, I do like the musical accompaniment idea ):thumbup:


----------



## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Goldagain said:


> I didn't become bitter toward unions till i came here. Hell I was union. I just don't like the way the majority of union members talk down to non union workers. They are usually no smarter or any better as an electrician but if your not in a union your a scab or a rat. So, i harass them. And I bid all there work really cheap and take it from them by paying dirt wages and doing everything to the absolute minimum standard. I sleep well knowing i steal a few thousand hours from the guys in my local every year.
> Rock on *brothers*!!


I think that if you have a social disorder, you really shouldn't try to belong any kind of fraternal organization. Working together and a teamwork environment requires both humility and maturity. 
When you get a bit older and have seen a bit more, you will realize what you squandered.


----------



## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

big2bird said:


> I am the exact opposite. Merit shops did not bother me till I started posting here. The "union thug" attitude here is prevalant.
> I love doing side jobs where I take a few crumbs from the local rats.
> 
> "And there you have it.":laughing:


----------



## DIYer4Life (Nov 11, 2013)

jrannis said:


> I think that if you have a social disorder, you really shouldn't try to belong any kind of fraternal organization. Working together and a teamwork environment requires both humility and maturity.
> When you get a bit older and have seen a bit more, you will realize what you squandered.


The union isn't a fraternal organization, it's a paid for service.


----------



## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

DIYer4Life said:


> The union isn't a fraternal organization, it's a paid for service.


Very well worth the price. :thumbsup:


----------



## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

jrannis said:


> I think that if you have a social disorder, you really shouldn't try to belong any kind of fraternal organization. Working together and a teamwork environment requires both humility and maturity. When you get a bit older and have seen a bit more, you will realize what you squandered.


Obviously you have a social disorder so just please die already


----------



## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

jrannis said:


> I think that if you have a social disorder, you really shouldn't try to belong any kind of fraternal organization. Working together and a teamwork environment requires both humility and maturity.
> When you get a bit older and have seen a bit more, you will realize what you squandered.


Squandered huh. 

:laughing::laughing:


----------



## DIYer4Life (Nov 11, 2013)

jrannis said:


> Very well worth the price. :thumbsup:


In some cases, sure. In most cases, no.


----------



## lefleuron (May 22, 2010)

Goldagain said:


> I didn't become bitter toward unions till i came here. Hell I was union. I just don't like the way the majority of union members talk down to non union workers. They are usually no smarter or any better as an electrician but if your not in a union your a scab or a rat. So, i harass them. And I bid all there work really cheap and take it from them by paying dirt wages and doing everything to the absolute minimum standard. I sleep well knowing i steal a few thousand hours from the guys in my local every year.
> Rock on *brothers*!!


 And you guys get pissed at me when I do Hats for 30 bucks each on a Sunday.

Hippykrits.:laughing:


----------



## lefleuron (May 22, 2010)

BBQ,

Try to understand this.

NOBODY prefers to work for less money.

That is the wall all of your bull**** statements hit.

NOBODY with a fully functional brain would prefer to make 14 dollars per, compared to 28 dollars per hour.

I understand some dont have the ability to pass the tests, or do the schooling. Maybe some dont have the opportunity because the Union is not a large presents in their area, and they can't travel.

But given the chance, nobody prefers to make less then the most they possibly can. And anyone who says otherwise is either a r e t a r d, or just as full of **** as you are.

One or the other.


----------



## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

lefleuron said:


> BBQ,
> 
> Try to understand this.
> 
> NOBODY prefers to work for less money.


Union Electricians ALWAYS make more!!

I squandered my opportunity. 

:laughing:


----------



## DIYer4Life (Nov 11, 2013)

CE/CW :whistling2:


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

lefleuron said:


> BBQ,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I want to agree with you because it make all the sense in the world and CANNOT understand men working for less, but I KNOW MEN that despise the union to the extent they willing work for less.


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

DIYer4Life said:


> CE/CW :whistling2:


In theory hopefully a way to a better wage


----------



## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

This thread has potential.

IBTL


----------



## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

lefleuron said:


> BBQ,
> 
> Try to understand this.
> 
> ...


I would take a job picking up dog sh!t for minimum wage before I would join the IBEW. You don't have to believe me, but it is the truth.

Yes, I make less hourly working non-union than I would working union. However, I work year round. 12 months a year, all year, every year. I have been laid off once when the company I worked for went under. I had a new job the next week. IMO, there is more negative than positive in joining the union. I'm glad it works for you, it's not for me.

What good is union scale wages doing for a guy that works 6 months, gets laid off, and rides the bench for 2 years. Even though my hourly rate is a few bucks less I still make more than that guy does over the long hall. Yes, the union has many benefits. It also has many negatives. If it were truly as great a situation as you guys claim it is we would all be banging the doors down to get, but we aren't.


----------



## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

EBFD6 said:


> I would take a job picking up dog sh!t for minimum wage before I would join the IBEW. You don't have to believe me, but it is the truth. Yes, I make less hourly working non-union than I would working union. However, I work year round. 12 months a year, all year, every year. I have been laid off once when the company I worked for went under. I had a new job the next week. IMO, there is more negative than positive in joining the union. I'm glad it works for you, it's not for me. What good is union scale wages doing for a guy that works 6 months, gets laid off, and rides the bench for 2 years. Even though my hourly rate is a few bucks less I still make more than that guy does over the long hall. Yes, the union has many benefits. It also has many negatives. If it were truly as great a situation as you guys claim it is we would all be banging the doors down to get, but we aren't.


 Exactly. It all equals out in the end. In the long run union decline will continue to grow and in twenty years or so the union will cease to exist.

Mostly to blame for this are the brainwashed thugs like the few union cheerleaders who constantly provoke


----------



## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

...just a curiosity question;

what if a 100 man shop votes to go into the union and than decides 4 years later it was not a good move and want to return to non union. 
They voted and 100% want out of the union, what happens and how hard is it to reverse?


----------



## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

robnj772 said:


> Exactly. It all equals out in the end. In the long run union decline will continue to grow and in twenty years or so the union will cease to exist.
> 
> *Mostly to blame for this* are the brainwashed thugs like the few union cheerleaders who constantly provoke


 Major corporations share a large chunk of that blame.


----------



## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

robnj772 said:


> Exactly. It all equals out in the end. In the long run union decline will continue to grow and in twenty years or so the union will cease to exist.


Wrong again. I have heard this for 35 years, and it has yet to come close.


----------



## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

brian john said:


> I want to agree with you because it make all the sense in the world and CANNOT understand men working for less, but I KNOW MEN that despise the union to the extent they willing work for less.


Blows me away. My father, a fellow sparkey, hated unions when I was a kid. When my mother convinced him to work at Disneyland with her, he had to join IBEW. 
AFter that, 180* change in his attitude towards the union. 
So kids, when I hear all this BS, all I hear is my father and my child hood all over again. I have heard all the arguements on both sides from THE SAME MAN.:blink:


----------



## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

big2bird said:


> Wrong again. I have heard this for 35 years, and it has yet to come close.


Wrong again


----------



## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

jrannis said:


> I think that if you have a social disorder, you really shouldn't try to belong any kind of fraternal organization. Working together and a teamwork environment requires both *humility and maturity.
> *When you get a bit older and have seen a bit more, you will realize what you squandered.





lefleuron said:


> And you guys get pissed at me when I do Hats for 30 bucks each on a Sunday.
> 
> *Hippykrits.*:laughing:





lefleuron said:


> BBQ,
> 
> Try to understand this.
> 
> ...


Must be Jrannis was mistaken about the humility and maturity part or you aren't actually in the union.

Isn't that being a hypocrite to admit doing side work in violation of union policy??? 

It's "presence" not "presents" 

Please don't use the R word around us non-union gentlemen!:laughing:


----------



## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

big2bird said:


> Blows me away. My father, a fellow sparkey, hated unions when I was a kid. When my mother convinced him to work at Disneyland with her, he had to join IBEW.
> AFter that, 180* change in his attitude towards the union.
> So kids, when I hear all this BS, all I hear is my father and my child hood all over again. I have heard all the arguements on both sides from THE SAME MAN.:blink:


Are you saying your dad did Mickey Mouse electrical work??:laughing::laughing:


----------



## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

wendon said:


> Must be Jrannis was mistaken about the humility and maturity part or you aren't actually in the union. Isn't that being a hypocrite to admit doing side work in violation of union policy??? It's "presence" not "presents" Please don't use the R word around us non-union gentlemen!:laughing:


Yea he expects everyone to join the union, thinks we are stupid for not wanting all this money blah blah blah.

Then he sends his Sunday doing side work for peanuts, because " he likes stealing work from rats"

That right there is the union mentality in a nut shell

You just can't make this **** up.


----------



## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

wendon said:


> Are you saying your dad did Mickey Mouse electrical work??:laughing::laughing:


Pretty much.:laughing:He worked his way up to #2 on the list before he passed.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

lefleuron said:


> BBQ,
> 
> Try to understand this.
> 
> ...


We all would prefer more money.

But some of us are unwilling to toss our own standards aside to get it.

I have a real problem with how the union in this area operates, I don't want to be associated with that even if it mean less money for me. 



> NOBODY with a fully functional brain would prefer to make 14 dollars per, compared to 28 dollars per hour.


Prefer to? No, choose to anyway yeah, it happens.



> But given the chance, nobody prefers to make less then the most they possibly can. And anyone who says otherwise is either a r e t a r d, or just as full of **** as you are.
> 
> One or the other.


The third option is you are wrong. You have no issues with working for the union and that's great. Have fun.

I and many others would have a problem with it. You do realize some folks even leave the union because they find it is not for them. :laughing:


----------



## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

BBQ said:


> We all would prefer more money.
> 
> But some of us are unwilling to toss our own standards aside to get it.
> 
> ...


I find that quite fair.:thumbup:


----------



## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

chicken steve said:


> Can someone explain how being _required_ to fund a separate organizations political agenda for the sake of a job _isn't _discriminatory?
> 
> http://www.ncsl.org/Portals/1/Documents/magazine/articles/2012/SL_0512-Stats.pdf
> 
> ~CS~



This link can explain why it's not discriminatory a lot better than I can.


----------



## 347sparky (May 14, 2012)

EBFD6 said:


> I would take a job picking up dog sh!t for minimum wage before I would join the IBEW. You don't have to believe me, but it is the truth.
> 
> Yes, I make less hourly working non-union than I would working union. However, I work year round. 12 months a year, all year, every year. I have been laid off once when the company I worked for went under. I had a new job the next week. IMO, there is more negative than positive in joining the union. I'm glad it works for you, it's not for me.
> 
> What good is union scale wages doing for a guy that works 6 months, gets laid off, and rides the bench for 2 years. Even though my hourly rate is a few bucks less I still make more than that guy does over the long hall. Yes, the union has many benefits. It also has many negatives. If it were truly as great a situation as you guys claim it is we would all be banging the doors down to get, but we aren't.


Another myth that everyone in the union only works half the year. I have been laid off twice and rode the bench a whole 3 days in 24 years. I know of at least 40 other guys in my area that can claim the same or better. Most of that is from working hard, trying to do things correctly, and some luck. Not everything is black and white (on this forum) like everyone thinks it is.


----------



## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

EBFD6 said:


> What good is union scale wages doing for a guy that works 6 months, gets laid off, and rides the bench for 2 years.


In my thirty years in the union I have had 2 very long layoffs. 22 months and 10 months, both in the last five years. However, if all I work is 6 months a year, my health and welfare is covered, my pension is covered and my annuity gets a bunch of income.

The fallacy that we only work 6 months every couple of years is just that. Sure, I bet you know someone like that - but I know a lot of guys who work 12 months a year, every year, for decades. You know, kind of like everyone else in the trades, union or non union.


----------



## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

I just got my report. 34 years, 54,000 hrs. (As of last June).1995 was horrible. Other than that, pretty good.


----------



## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

eejack said:


> In my thirty years in the union I have had 2 very long layoffs. 22 months and 10 months, both in the last five years. However, if all I work is 6 months a year, my health and welfare is covered, my pension is covered and my annuity gets a bunch of income.
> 
> The fallacy that we only work 6 months every couple of years is just that. Sure, I bet you know someone like that - but I know a lot of guys who work 12 months a year, every year, for decades. You know, kind of like everyone else in the trades, union or non union.


That was just one example of what I see as a downside to the union. I'm sure there are guys like you that have worked more than they've been laid off. However, between the economy the last few years and the fact the union is losing more and more market share each year, it seems as though most union guys around here are laid off more than they work. Either way, it doesn't change anything for me personally as it pertains to my opinion of the union. 

Like I said, I have many issues with the union that will prevent me from ever joining. BBQ's post was pretty much spot on to how I feel.


----------



## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

EBFD6 said:


> Like I said, I have many issues with the union that will prevent me from ever joining. BBQ's post was pretty much spot on to how I feel.


You are welcome to not join and to have your opinions, but you have to understand that the decision to purposefully take food off the family table just confounds many folks.

While I respect your reasons, it just seems from my perspective that you bought into the hype and got suckered, and in doing so made someone else a lot of extra money.


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

BBQ said:


> We all would prefer more money.
> 
> But some of us are unwilling to toss our own standards aside to get it.
> 
> I have a real problem with how the union in this area operates, I don't want to be associated with that even if it mean less money for me.


:thumbsup:

For the past year or so, The IBEW in RI has been sending out form letters to all us non-union electricians in their jurisdiction, more or less begging us "rats" to consider joining the IBEW. I throw them away as soon as I'm done reading them, but I also get a good laugh at how badly their membership is declining that they feel the need to put on this marketing campaign.


----------



## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

MTW said:


> :thumbsup:
> 
> For the past year or so, The IBEW in RI has been sending out form letters to all us non-union electricians in their jurisdiction, more or less begging us "rats" to consider joining the IBEW. I throw them away as soon as I'm done reading them, but I also get a good laugh at how badly their membership is declining that they feel the need to put on this marketing campaign.


LOL.

Step one, complain about union market share.
Step two, complain about union attempts to increase market share.
Step three, complain about the decline of union membership.

:laughing:


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

eejack said:


> LOL.
> 
> Step one, complain about union market share.
> Step two, complain about union attempts to increase market share.
> ...


Who's complaining? I'm quite happy to watch the union market share continue to decline. The union can't die fast enough as far as I'm concerned.


----------



## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

eejack said:


> You are welcome to not join and to have your opinions, but you have to understand that the decision to purposefully take food off the family table just confounds many folks.
> 
> While I respect your reasons, it just seems from my perspective that you bought into the hype and got suckered, and in doing so made someone else a lot of extra money.


I haven't bought any "hype". I live in an area with a strong union presence, getting weaker everyday thankfully but still more prevalent than in other areas of the country. I have had a lot of exposure to and interaction with the union. Most of it has been negative. Of course most of the union cheerleaders will say I'm lying and none of my experiences actually happened, just figments of my imagination, but whatever. 

I have formed my opinions through my own experiences as well as conversations with other guys. I know guys that have been union their whole career, guys that have worked merit shop their whole career, guys that started merit shop and went union, guys that started union and left to work merit shop. 

I know many pros and cons from both sides and for me non-union is the way. I could never join the union and have any respect for myself. I despise the union and what it stands for.


----------



## denny3992 (Jul 12, 2010)

eejack said:


> In my thirty years in the union I have had 2 very long layoffs. 22 months and 10 months, both in the last five years. However, if all I work is 6 months a year, my health and welfare is covered, my pension is covered and my annuity gets a bunch of income.
> 
> The fallacy that we only work 6 months every couple of years is just that. Sure, I bet you know someone like that - but I know a lot of guys who work 12 months a year, every year, for decades. You know, kind of like everyone else in the trades, union or non union.


Tell them what ur annuity is worth after 30 yrs... Thats the payday i liked!


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

EBFD6 said:


> I haven't bought any "hype". I live in an area with a strong union presence, getting weaker everyday thankfully but still more prevalent than in other areas of the country. I have had a lot of exposure to and interaction with the union. Most of it has been negative. Of course most of the union cheerleaders will say I'm lying and none of my experiences actually happened, just figments of my imagination, but whatever.
> 
> I have formed my opinions through my own experiences as well as conversations with other guys. I know guys that have been union their whole career, guys that have worked merit shop their whole career, guys that started merit shop and went union, guys that started union and left to work merit shop.
> 
> I know many pros and cons from both sides and for me non-union is the way. I could never join the union and have any respect for myself. I despise the union and what it stands for.


This post is right on. Everyone could make more money somewhere else but will you be able to look at yourself in the mirror in the morning.


----------



## Mich drew (Mar 3, 2013)

I work for a small family owned union shop and we compete with non union shops all the time. Our prices are competitive with theirs with per hour service work at 75$ to 80$ an hour.the non union shops charge around the same because they can. The difference is my wage scale and benefits are significantly more than theirs,even though their bosses are charging the same prices. We enjoy a larger piece of the pie, while their bosses eat most of the pie and leaves the crust for his employees. Who likes pie? I know I do.


----------



## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

denny3992 said:


> Tell them what ur annuity is worth after 30 yrs... Thats the payday i liked!


They don't want to hear about my retirement package...$100 per year per month ( currently 28 pension years ) and my annuity is up because the market is up but around 300K. I took a beating when the tech bubble burst and again in 2008.


----------



## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

sbrn33 said:


> This post is right on. Everyone could make more money somewhere else but will you be able to look at yourself in the mirror in the morning.


And I drink the koolaid?

I go to work, I work, I go home.

If you could make more money honestly you would. I make my money honestly. Sheesh.

You make it sound union members drink blood and kill babies. Look myself in the mirror? Seriously...what kind of malarky are they feeding you?:blink:


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Mich drew said:


> I work for a small family owned union shop and we compete with non union shops all the time. Our prices are competitive with theirs with per hour service work at 75$ to 80$ an hour.the non union shops charge around the same because they can. The difference is my wage scale and benefits are significantly more than theirs,even though their bosses are charging the same prices. We enjoy a larger piece of the pie, while their bosses eat most of the pie and leaves the crust for his employees. Who likes pie? I know I do.


You really have know idea what you are talking about.


----------



## Mich drew (Mar 3, 2013)

sbrn33 said:


> You really have know idea what you are talking about.


Your right,I have learned nothing in the past 30+ years in this trade.Awe me with your wisdom!


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

If you work for someone you really have no idea of their costs or what they pay their employees. 
What you know is what your "brothers" tell you what you need to believe.


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

eejack said:


> And I drink the koolaid?
> 
> I go to work, I work, I go home.
> 
> ...


You could very well be the most brainwashed person on the internet.

I bet you believe the union gives all that money to charities too.:laughing:


----------



## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

sbrn33 said:


> You could very well be the most brainwashed person on the internet. I bet you believe the union gives all that money to charities too.:laughing:


Back when he was LGLS it was the same crap


----------



## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

Mich drew said:


> I work for a small family owned union shop and we compete with non union shops all the time. Our prices are competitive with theirs with per hour service work at 75$ to 80$ an hour.the non union shops charge around the same because they can. The difference is my wage scale and benefits are significantly more than theirs,even though their bosses are charging the same prices. We enjoy a larger piece of the pie, while their bosses eat most of the pie and leaves the crust for his employees. Who likes pie? I know I do.



I don't believe your drivel for three seconds.

A union shop charging out the same as a non union shop ?

You like pie? I smell a cow pie!


----------



## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

sbrn33 said:


> If you work for someone you really have no idea of their costs or what they pay their employees.
> What you know is what your "brothers" tell you what you need to believe.


If you have your own project manager on a PW job, you know all details to the dime.


----------



## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

sbrn33 said:


> You could very well be the most brainwashed person on the internet.
> 
> I bet you believe the union gives all that money to charities too.:laughing:


Talking to you is like talking to a 4 year old. 

Plonk.


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

big2bird said:


> If you have your own project manager on a PW job, you know all details to the dime.


Not sure what you mean?? I just quoted a job today Davis bacon. 14 homes. You guys wage is a joke compared to real life


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

eejack said:


> They don't want to hear about my retirement package...$100 per year per month ( currently 28 pension years ) and my annuity is up because the market is up but around 300K. I took a beating when the tech bubble burst and again in 2008.


Crap. 
Our annuity is lower, but the pension is higher. I guess it's a wash.
Local 11 annuity is similar to yours.


----------



## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

eejack said:


> Talking to you is like talking to a 4 year old.
> 
> Plonk.


Their a pair. Life is simpler with the ignore button.


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

eejack said:


> Talking to you is like talking to a 4 year old.
> 
> Plonk.


Ignorance is a very funny thing. I think you are very good at it.


----------



## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

big2bird said:


> Crap.
> Our annuity is lower, but the pension is higher. I guess it's a wash.
> Local 11 annuity is similar to yours.


We can self run our annuity - I usually pick decent investments but I timed the last crash very poorly. 

There is the international pension in there somewhere as well - I keep forgetting about it.


----------



## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

big2bird said:


> Their a pair. Life is simpler with the ignore button.


Yeppers. He got plonked and the apparent intelligence level of the entire forum rose several points. :thumbup:


----------



## Mich drew (Mar 3, 2013)

I know exactly what my wage and benefit package costs.I know what our service rates are. I know what the material markup is.I also know what most of the non union guys make. Working in a small town for so many years,I know most all the electricians that work here,and believe it or not we mostly all get along well.Apparently where you live union and non union don't get along. We respect each other and find a commonality in the trade we share.


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

eejack said:


> We can self run our annuity - I usually pick decent investments but I timed the last crash very poorly.


We can too. I am running about 18% this year, but our deduction is lower than most.


----------



## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

eejack said:


> Yeppers. He got plonked and the apparent intelligence level of the entire forum rose several points. :thumbup:


Plonked em both. :thumbsup:


----------



## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

eejack said:


> They don't want to hear about my retirement package...$100 per year per month ( currently 28 pension years ) and my annuity is up because the market is up but around 300K. I took a beating when the tech bubble burst and again in 2008.


Don't forget your Nebf.


----------



## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Loose Neutral said:


> Don't forget your Nebf.


I always forget about the international pension...what is it, like $25 a year per month or something?


----------



## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

This union topic is a lot better when I can just talk to union electricians. Worked in an outside local for eight months doing inside work on substations. 39.50 hr. 26% into my annuity. Dental... Doesn't get any better.


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## lefleuron (May 22, 2010)

Start bringing up pension/annuity/time served,

And the Union haters go quiet.:laughing:

Add in a much better wage and other benies...and why in the world would anyone want to join?:no:


----------



## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

lefleuron said:


> Start bringing up pension/annuity/time served, And the Union haters go quiet.:laughing: Add in a much better wage and other benies...and why in the world would anyone want to join?:no:


Or maybe the "union haters" got tired of eejerk and big turds lies after 16 pages


----------



## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

Maybe I should just be quiet. We don't want a huge line at the union hall tomorrow. My ba might have a panic attack.


----------



## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

robnj772 said:


> Or maybe the "union haters" got tired of eejerk and big turds lies after 16 pages


Stay out of the union.


----------



## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

cl219um said:


> Maybe I should just be quiet. We don't want a huge line at the union hall tomorrow. My ba might have a panic attack.


Check and see if the sun comes up in the west tomorrow before you go to greet the long line on the bench. Or maybe the Vikings will win the Super Bowl!!:laughing:


----------



## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

wendon said:


> Check and see if the sun comes up in the west tomorrow before you go to greet the long line on the bench. Or maybe the Vikings will win the Super Bowl!!:laughing:


Or robnj will stop being an idiot?


----------



## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

big2bird said:


> Or robnj will stop being an idiot?


Now that might be stretching it a bit!!!:laughing::laughing:


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

:laughing:


----------



## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

wendon said:


> Check and see if the sun comes up in the west tomorrow before you go to greet the long line on the bench. Or maybe the Vikings will win the Super Bowl!!:laughing:


0 guys on book one here.


----------



## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

cl219um said:


> 0 guys on book one here.


Oh. I forgot the :laughing::laughing:


----------



## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

lefleuron said:


> Start bringing up pension/annuity/time served,
> 
> And the Union haters go quiet.:laughing:
> 
> Add in a much better wage and other benies...and why in the world would anyone want to join?:no:


How much money goes into your pension when you're laid off sitting home on the couch for 2 years?

I will say it again for those who might have a learning disability.

Yes, union pay is better.

Yes, union retirement benefits "might be" better than the 401k account that I have.

Yes, I do pay for a portion of my medical, dental, life, and disability insurance that I receive through my employer (60/40, employer/employee)

Even with the better pay and possibly better benefits, dealing with the union bullsh!t and politics are just not worth the trade off. I'm glad you make a good living and I sincerely hope you are able to live a long and healthy life where you can enjoy your retirement. For me the union just wouldn't work.


----------



## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

You non union guys seem to use the smiley face a lot. Is that so you can communicate with each other showing sarcasm. Or are you that slap happy?:laughing::laughing::laughing:


----------



## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

EBFD6 said:


> How much money goes into your pension when you're laid off sitting home on the couch for 2 years?
> 
> I will say it again for those who might have a learning disability.
> 
> ...


I don't sit waiting. I go find it where the work is.


----------



## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

cl219um said:


> You non union guys seem to use the smiley face a lot. Is that so you can communicate with each other showing sarcasm. Or are you that slap happy?


Maybe it's because we've never broke anyone's legs, never shot any kneecaps, never inflated a rat at some business owner's home, never tore anyone's work out unless the owner asked us to, and never protested anything. (we'd rather be working, trying to keep up):laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


----------



## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

wendon said:


> Maybe it's because we've never broke anyone's legs, never shot any kneecaps, never inflated a rat at some business owner's home, never tore anyone's work out unless the owner asked us to, and never protested anything. (we'd rather be working, trying to keep up):laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


Practically perefct in every way Mary Poppins. You don't have to be union to shoot someone's knee cap, or break a leg. :no:


----------



## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

wendon said:


> Maybe it's because we've never broke anyone's legs, never shot any kneecaps, never inflated a rat at some business owner's home, never tore anyone's work out unless the owner asked us to, and never protested anything. (we'd rather be working, trying to keep up):laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


neither have i. worked non union for thirteen years myself and seen non union guys wear ftu shirts.


----------



## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

eejack said:


> I always forget about the international pension...what is it, like $25 a year per month or something?


The international is the smallest, something like $5 a credit. The NEBF is something like $34 a credit. Both you have to wait till 62.


----------



## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

cl219um said:


> neither have i. worked non union for thirteen years myself and seen non union guys wear ftu shirts.


wait for it. i found it:laughing:. no. this one.


----------



## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

EBFD6 said:


> For me the union just wouldn't work.


We got that about 200 posts ago.


----------



## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

EBFD6 said:


> How much money goes into your pension when you're laid off sitting home on the couch for 2 years?
> 
> I will say it again for those who might have a learning disability.
> 
> ...


I've never met someone laid off for 2 years. Ever.


----------



## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

and they did it with class and style all on the same day. how cute.:sneaky2:


----------



## Thomps (Nov 27, 2008)

This thread has sunk from comical to douchebaggery,,,


----------



## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

Loose Neutral said:


> The international is the smallest, something like $5 a credit. The NEBF is something like $34 a credit. Both you have to wait till 62.


That's about right. I think my NEBF will be about $34x 38 years. $1292.
Add in the local, annuity, and SSI, and I'll be fine.(Knock on wood).


----------



## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

big2bird said:


> We got that about 200 posts ago.


Yet he loves to hang out with us union guys.


----------



## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

big2bird said:


> That's about right. I think my NEBF will be about $34x 38 years. $1292.
> Add in the local, annuity, and SSI, and I'll be fine.(Knock on wood).


Your international should be around $200


----------



## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

big2bird said:


> That's about right. I think my NEBF will be about $34x 38 years. $1292.
> Add in the local, annuity, and SSI, and I'll be fine.(Knock on wood).


That annuity has to be Fat!!!!!


----------



## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

Loose Neutral said:


> Your international should be around $200


Cool. That will pay the cable bill.:laughing::laughing:


----------



## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

the greatest thing about my pension is that its the locals. not some crummy corporations that can borrow from it or take it away at anytime. gotta love that part.


----------



## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

Loose Neutral said:


> That annuity has to be Fat!!!!!


It's getting there. We started one late, and had issues with rates, administration, yada yada. My friends in Local 11 and 357 have 2-3 times what I have. It is, however, more than I had planned on, so I'm okay.


----------



## lefleuron (May 22, 2010)

EBFD6 said:


> How much money goes into your pension when you're laid off sitting home on the couch for 2 years?
> 
> I will say it again for those who might have a learning disability.
> 
> ...



I am an industrial electrician.

I work in/for large companies that manufacture things. Like Goodyear, Ford, Sherwin Williams, etc. etc. etc.

We dont get laid off. We get fired, or locked out. Its been 14 years now since either has happened to me.

Now watch, I jinxed myself, and they will shut down all the factories in my area.


----------



## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

cl219um said:


> the greatest thing about my pension is that its the locals. not some crummy corporations that can borrow from it or take it away at anytime. gotta love that part.


Yep. My one friend who was a rod buster used to bust my chops about unions.. His boss set them up with bennies, untill his divorce, when he escaped with their bennies to the Bahamas.


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

we can only blame ourselves if it tanks. and its a COLLECTIVE approach you could say. guess not everyone would understand.


----------



## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

I'm "union" and still had to negotiate with my employer for a $9 pay increase just to make scale here.

The hall has not backed me at all in this, just words between me and the contractor.

Still don't have the awesome benefits though...

EDIT: This is in a _very_ RtW state.


----------



## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Loose Neutral said:


> I've never met someone laid off for 2 years. Ever.


In my thirty years I had one 22 month layoff and one 10 month layoff ( shock and surprise - the wall street collapse of 2008 started that string of nothing to do ).

You are not gonna convince EBFD6, but that is okay. He is happy with what he is doing and happiness is very important. Some folks would rather do things their own way and if it means less money and it is worth it to them, who are we to say they are wrong. 

I applaud the commitment, even if I disagree with it.


----------



## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

cl219um said:


> we can only blame ourselves if it tanks. and its a COLLECTIVE approach you could say. guess not everyone would understand.


I've seen that word used somewhere before.........
Oh, yes, COLLECTIVE FARMS !


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

wendon said:


> Maybe it's because we've never broke anyone's legs, never shot any kneecaps, never inflated a rat at some business owner's home, never tore anyone's work out unless the owner asked us to, and never protested anything. (we'd rather be working, trying to keep up):laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


Well, I have to admit. Once you start breaking legs it is really hard to stop - you can't just break _one_... :thumbup:

But to your salient points - never shot any kneecaps, never protested a home in any way shape or form, never tore out work unless the owner told me to do so and any pickets I have been on have been on my own time and in accordance with the law.

I have also been wacked with a baseball bat on a picket, had my truck towed _roughly _while on a picket, had a Verizon truck try to run me down on a picket and been arrested marching on washington dc ( for women's rights of all things...trying to impress Mrs. EEjack )

For the most part, I would rather be working, just like you.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

eejack said:


> Well, I have to admit. Once you start breaking legs it is really hard to stop - you can't just break _one_... :thumbup:
> 
> But to your salient points - never shot any kneecaps, never protested a home in any way shape or form, never tore out work unless the owner told me to do so and any pickets I have been on have been on my own time and in accordance with the law.
> 
> ...


Well, in spite of your leg-breaking history, I've got to admire your dedication to the Mrs. !!! I don't know if I'd be willing to go picketing for women's rights for my Mrs. especially not to Washington D.C. You're lucky some congressman didn't get his hands in your pockets while yours were busy holding up a sign of :


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

TGGT said:


> I'm "union" and still had to negotiate with my employer for a $9 pay increase just to make scale here.
> 
> The hall has not backed me at all in this, just words between me and the contractor.
> 
> ...


drag up and resign books.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

eejack said:


> In my thirty years I had one 22 month layoff and one 10 month layoff ( shock and surprise - the wall street collapse of 2008 started that string of nothing to do ).
> 
> You are not gonna convince EBFD6, but that is okay. He is happy with what he is doing and happiness is very important. Some folks would rather do things their own way and if it means less money and it is worth it to them, who are we to say they are wrong.
> 
> I applaud the commitment, even if I disagree with it.


This is how it was here for a long time until we had those couple of trolls show up that only post non-electrical crap.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

> Originally Posted by *Loose Neutral*
> _I've never met someone laid off for 2 years. Ever._


There are some guys in our local and I would think in every local that cherry pick jobs and do not mind being out of work for extended periods. 

Particularly here where members have wives that work for the federal government (good pay and bennies), the guy is up there in age and not ready to retire.

BUT THIS IS BY CHOICE


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

cl219um said:


> drag up and resign books.


CE/CW's don't sign books. We go to the organizing department and see what jobs are available. First come first serve. On top of that, I lose the wages I negotiated for from the last company.

If I quit, I lose those wages.

If I'm layed off I lose those wages.

If I'm fired I lose those wages.

Unlike non-union where I could negotiate a comparable wage before working, I highly doubt any signatory contractor would be willing to pay a decent wage for a CE/CW _before_ putting them to work.


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## DIYer4Life (Nov 11, 2013)

TGGT said:


> CE/CW's don't sign books. We go to the organizing department and see what jobs are available. First come first serve. On top of that, I lose the wages I negotiated for from the last company.
> 
> If I quit, I lose those wages.
> 
> ...


Your local doesn't have standard wages for CE/CW's?


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

DIYer4Life said:


> Your local doesn't have standard wages for CE/CW's?


They do, but they're abysmal.

I've been trying very hard to get turned out as a JIW. The contractor has agreed to pay me JIW wages ($25.40) my classification's minimum rate is $17.13 as a CE-2.

The Hall and the JATC have a lot of hoops ce/cw's need to jump through to be considered for JIW, it's pretty ironic.


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

TGGT said:


> They do, but they're abysmal.
> 
> I've been trying very hard to get turned out as a JIW. The contractor has agreed to pay me JIW wages ($25.40) my classification's minimum rate is $17.13 as a CE-2.
> 
> The Hall and the JATC have a lot of hoops ce/cw's need to jump through to be considered for JIW, it's pretty ironic.


we hired a guy recently from a non union contractor and put him to work as a cew. they decided to organize him as a jiw. he worked until his drug test came back. havent seen him since. he doubled his wage and lost it all. bummer.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

cl219um said:


> we hired a guy recently from a non union contractor and put him to work as a cew. they decided to organize him as a jiw. he worked until his drug test came back. havent seen him since. he doubled his wage and lost it all. bummer.


If he was a decent J-man he didn't double his wage. One more myth from the chosen ones.


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

sbrn33 said:


> If he was a decent J-man he didn't double his wage. One more myth from the chosen ones.


And by myth you mean bull****


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

with full benefits included. yeah he did.


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## lefleuron (May 22, 2010)

cl219um said:


> with full benefits included. yeah he did.


 You cannot explain our wages to people who don't know. They just dont want to believe someone can make $30-40 bucks per on the check, and $80+ package.

These are people who think a damn good wage is 13 dollars an hour.

Its like trying to explain television to a cannibal.


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## mr hands (Sep 15, 2013)

It's like trying to explain compound interest to my dog.


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## mr hands (Sep 15, 2013)

The IBEW has failed you TGGT.

What a crying shame.


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## Chrisibew440 (Sep 13, 2013)

Only if every electrician joined the ibew. Ahhhhhhhh. Bliss.


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## mr hands (Sep 15, 2013)

I can't believe that the non-union shops are hiring men at $10 less per hour with no retirement and health coverage that comes out of the check.

Our hall is taking almost anybody and putting them to work. Now I just found out this weekend there is a slim to none chance we can man the work we have, and still non-union guys are going to shlep wire and conduit for that much less an hour, and it's the exact same work. I guess they didn't get the memo, we love productive skilled electricians, and will even kiss their butt.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

mr hands said:


> I can't believe that the non-union shops are hiring men at $10 less per hour with no retirement and health coverage that comes out of the check.
> 
> Our hall is taking almost anybody and putting them to work. Now I just found out this weekend there is a slim to none chance we can man the work we have, and still non-union guys are going to shlep wire and conduit for that much less an hour, and it's the exact same work. I guess they didn't get the memo, we love productive skilled electricians, and will even kiss their butt.


Do you guys even hire haole's? Where can I sign up.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

mr hands said:


> It's like trying to explain compound interest to my dog.


Your dog might understand it if you could only explain it properly:thumbsup::laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

brian john said:


> Your dog might understand it if you could only explain it properly:thumbsup::laughing::laughing::laughing:


I tried but my dog kept eating all the cookies I was using as visual aids.

He did however, sit very nicely though the presentation. :laughing:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

eejack said:


> I tried but my dog kept eating all the cookies I was using as visual aids.
> 
> He did however, sit very nicely though the presentation. :laughing:


Better than my dog that little thing let the biggest FART


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