# Troubleshooting loose neutrals and hots



## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Here's a tool I've mentioned several times over the years that is very valuable to use for troubleshooting loose service hot legs and neutrals. It is "The Best of Burden", by H.J.Arnett Industries. It is marketed to lineworkers, but is very helpful to the electrician.



















It is bascially a "load bank" that you can alternately heavily load one hot leg or the other, with dual voltage meters, so that you can watch what happens. If one leg goes down, and the other goes up, you've found a loose neutral. If one leg sorely sags, and the other leg remains the same, you've found a loose hot. If both legs sag a little, but about the same, you've found a normal condition, or maybe an undersized aerial drop. 

Here's a few more views of the equipment. You can use the alligator clips that come out of the adaptor base on the main lugs in the panel, or on a multiwire branch circuit. You can remove the tool from the adaptor base, and plug it right into the meter socket. (you do need to plug a clip on the neutral in the meter base first, before you insert the tool).


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

Looks like the ideal unit for troubleshooting the power company's problems. We arn't permitted to pull meters around here.

Bob O.84,Pa.15330


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

bobelectric said:


> Looks like the ideal unit for troubleshooting the power company's problems. We arn't permitted to pull meters around here.
> 
> Bob O.84,Pa.15330


Bob, the tool is easily utilized with the adapter base, which permits it to be used with alligator clips on the main lugs of panels and such.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

wow Marc, now that is nice gimzo to use insead of lugging hevey duty load bank to test it out for loose netural / weak or loose hot line 

majorty of the load bank i have to get proper breaker by useing largest one by type of load centre or / disubation centre 

Merci , Marc


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

That thing really is a beast!


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## mdcorreia (Mar 31, 2007)

Magnettica said:


> That thing really is a beast!


Looks good, I still use old fashion methods, however good to know about.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

> Looks good, I still use old fashion methods, however good to know about.


What methods?


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

brian john said:


> > Looks good, I still use old fashion methods, however good to know about.
> 
> 
> What methods?


I have sometimes used boiling a cup of water in the microwave, running a hair dryer, etc. while measureing the voltage at each leg with a meter as an alternate method in a resi/light commercial environment.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Marc:

More load is always better in this situation, I was looking for other ideas?


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

brian john said:


> Marc:
> 
> More load is always better in this situation, I was looking for other ideas?


Yeah.... The "Super Beast" I have is the same tool most utility trouble trucks carry. It only puts a 20 amp load on. Somebody needs to make a reasonably sized load bank for electricians that puts maybe a 50-60 amp load on. When I last looked into this, it seemed like the next size up from the Super Beast was a load bank on wheels with a handle, about the size of a small television set.


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## mdcorreia (Mar 31, 2007)

brian john said:


> What methods?


I will post them more clear later - I use a drill, grouded piece of wire, amprobe, v. tester, hometer etc. just normal tools for small loads.


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## mdcorreia (Mar 31, 2007)

That is exactly what I use! It works well and I feel proud that this way I use some special skills and don1t have to fork out big bucks for that tester! Just my opinion.


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## cannio (Oct 6, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> Yeah.... The "Super Beast" I have is the same tool most utility trouble trucks carry. It only puts a 20 amp load on. Somebody needs to make a reasonably sized load bank for electricians that puts maybe a 50-60 amp load on. When I last looked into this, it seemed like the next size up from the Super Beast was a load bank on wheels with a handle, about the size of a small television set.


Couldnt you use an electric heating element out of an electric furnace or heat pump.

You could just get the elements and wire them up to suit your needs....

maybe build an enclosure for the element....

5,10,15,20 kw elements are lying around in hvac company scrap yards just waiting to be taken away and put to use.


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> Yeah.... The "Super Beast" I have is the same tool most utility trouble trucks carry. It only puts a 20 amp load on. Somebody needs to make a reasonably sized load bank for electricians that puts maybe a 50-60 amp load on. When I last looked into this, it seemed like the next size up from the Super Beast was a load bank on wheels with a handle, about the size of a small television set.


The company I started out with up in NY had a version similar to what you mentioned that was built on a handtruck frame with dual dials to adjust the load and asbestos wrapped leads with huge brass ring terminals. 
I think T A Edison Labs was the name plate on the front. Loose conductor connections were always problems in some of the ancient buildings in NYC.


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

Hey guys,
I'm trying to follow this thread and I'm a bit lost. 

Are you guys saying that if say a 20amp load is placed on the service that one phase should be delivering 20amps and the other should be returning 20amps. If not there may be a loose connection in the service wires?


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Roger123 said:


> Hey guys,
> I'm trying to follow this thread and I'm a bit lost.
> 
> Are you guys saying that if say a 20amp load is placed on the service that one phase should be delivering 20amps and the other should be returning 20amps. If not there may be a loose connection in the service wires?


No, the voltages are what will go wacky when a load is placed on one phase if the neutral is loose or open. One phase might read 130 volts, and the other might drop to 100 volts, for instance.


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

Thanks Marc,

But, how does at 120V load with an opened neutral affect the other phase conductor?


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Roger123 said:


> Thanks Marc,
> 
> But, how does at 120V load with an opened neutral affect the other phase conductor?


We're talking about the service drop here, which is essentially a multiwire circuit. With an open or loose neutral in that situation, the only thing you have to attenuate the 240 that you're stuck with now is the load on the opposite leg.


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

Oh, now I get it! Da!!


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

You now have your 120 VAC loads on a 240 VAC in series, depending on the impendance of the loads will depend on the VD across the load. SMOKE SMOKE SMOKE


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Its cool to have neat tools like that. From a purely smoke and mirrors display, using this could have real benefits in the Beverly Hills type suburbs. $$$. But a seat of the pants way to check the same is to energize just about everything in the house possible without overloading the main for the test. Doing that causes enough load to make the voltage swing around in the hot legs when the neut. is loose someplace up ahead of the main. (note- don't forget to unplug the widescreen tv and similar money stuff like that first)


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

It is also a good way to SMOKE the customers expensive electronics. IMO the proper tool for the job simplifies the job and is what makes a pro a pro.


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## mikethebike67 (Oct 7, 2007)

What I have done in the past is turn all 2 pole breakers off, turn all "A" phase breakers on and all "B" phase breakers off, then turn the lights on in all rooms. If the neutral is bad "B" phase voltage will go way up. The breakers on "B" phase are off so nothing is damaged. I would still unplug tv's and computers as anything on "A" phase will have voltage go down. Mike ps. first post hello everyone!


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

brian john said:


> It is also a good way to SMOKE the customers expensive electronics. .


Read the entire post. I said as much. And it was all tongue in cheek. And actually I like how mikethebike does it.


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## WIREDOG (May 27, 2007)

*yes yes yes*

:thumbup: i have to agree with mac i do this the same way as mikethebike but i think it is because i work with him he he he he


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## Tiger (Jan 3, 2008)

I watched a utility guy use one of those last year. For the budget minded, I turn off all the circuits in the home except the circuit for the panel outlet. I test the voltage, then see if it varies with a hairdryer running from the panel outlet. With a loose utility neutral it changed something like 10-20V, though I don't recall. It was more than I expected from a load like that. The tipoff is usually when someone says their lights dim/brighten with a load. There aren't many things that will brighten lights other than utility overvoltage.

Dave


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## faber307 (Jan 22, 2007)

I was working at a nursing home Friday that I had never been in before.
I plugged my cordless drill battery charger into a hall outlet.

I continued working then noticed the red flashing light on my charger doing somthing I have never seen before. The legend on the charge read somthing like improper voltage, or I can't even remember right now.

I grabbed a tester and and read approximately 208volts. The home's maintenance man was over my shoulder. I asked him "you have a 3 phase 240 service? wild leg?" he had no idea. I asked him when the last time he used the outlet. He shrugged.

I followed the pipe in the ceiling to the first J-box, opened her up pulled the neutral out of the box and saw an arc in the wire nut. Twisted it up and the plug tested fine.

Just goes along the lines of your discussion.

Wonder what it would do to the floor buffer?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Tab Faber said:


> Wonder what it would do to the floor buffer?


It would, theoretically, cut the staffs' time to buff the floor by 57.69%. :laughing:


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

480sparky said:


> It would, theoretically, cut the staffs' time to buff the floor by 57.69%. :laughing:


Ha! But power consumption goes by the SQUARE of the change in voltage. So maybe down by 77%:thumbup:

InPhase277


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## french connection!! (Dec 13, 2007)

well I usually look if there are any squirrel in the neighbor cause they really like to chew those aluminum service drop wires !


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## larrydoss1953 (4 mo ago)

french connection!! said:


> well I usually look if there are any squirrel in the neighbor cause they really like to chew those aluminum service drop wires !


Yes, I have encounter a many suicidal squirrels that knocked out power lines going to peoples homes.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

larrydoss1953 said:


> Yes, I have encounter a many suicidal squirrels that knocked out power lines going to peoples homes.


Watch your posts, 

Your pulling up old zombie threads.

Welcome to ET


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Wirenuting said:


> Watch your posts,
> 
> Your pulling up old zombie threads.
> 
> Welcome to ET


14 years ago LOL but good to see MDShunk's name pop up on the board!


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