# OSHA fines for electrical violations at hospital



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

They should also get nailed for not having a Master Electrican supervising Their Electricians..So they are ignoring our state licensing laws as well..:no:


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> They should also get nailed for not having a Master Electrican supervising Their Electricians..So they are ignoring our state licensing laws as well..:no:


How do you know they don't have a master there?


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Zog said:


> How do you know they don't have a master there?


If they did it would show on the state board of Examniners web site..

Any Electrical work they are doing they are supose to be pulling permits.

And if they do have one in there employ that master electrician must add the business name of the hostpital on his or her license..


*18.01: Rules Governing Practice*

(1) Two or more Journeyman electricians shall not associate as partners or otherwise engage in the business or occupation of installing, repairing or maintaining wires, conduits, apparatus, devices, fixtures, or other appliances used for light, heat, power, fire warning or security system purposes without obtaining the necessary Master electrician license.
(2) A licensee shall only engage in the electrical trade or otherwise conduct business in the name printed on his or her license. Any sign, advertisement or other business communication of a Master electrician (Class A) or Journeyman electrician (Class B) or Systems Contractor (Class C) shall indicate the type of license and the license number.
(3) All persons, firms, and corporations engaging in or working at the business of installing wires, conduits, apparatus, devices, fixtures, or other appliances for carrying electricity for light, heat, power, fire warning or security system purposes and employing learners and apprentices shall keep, or cause to be kept, accurate and detailed records of such employment for no less than seven years and shall permit the Board or its agents to inspect and copy such records upon request.
(4) Any licensee performing electrical installations shall comply with the uniform state electrical permit application and notification processes as set forth in M.G.L. c. 143, § 3L and the Massachusetts Electrical Code, 527 CMR 12.00.
(5) Each licensee shall disclose to the Board any pending complaint or finding made against him or her made by a court, other state or federal agency or, where applicable, by a licensing board of another jurisdiction.
(6) Each person, firm, or corporation holding a license and entering into, engaging in, or working at the business of installing, testing, repairing, or maintaining wires, conduits, apparatus, devices, fixtures, or other appliances used for carrying or using electricity for light, heat, power, fire warning or security system purposes shall be governed by the regulations of the Board, all applicable provisions of Massachusetts laws, and any regulations promulgated pursuant to the provisions of such laws; and with respect to all requirements of public safety not therein provided for, such person, firm, or corporation shall be governed by the minimum standards set forth in the Massachusetts Electrical Code, 527 CMR 12.00, provided that such Code and its amendments have been adopted by the Board, and provided further that a copy of the Code as adopted has been filed with the Massachusetts Office of the Secretary of State.
(7) A Journeyman electrician shall have no more than one apprentice/helper under his or her direct supervision or employ


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Zog said:


> I see these just about every day, felt like sharing this one.
> 
> OSHA has cited Northeast Hospital Corp. for alleged repeat and serious violations of electrical safety standards at its facility in Beverly. The employer faces a total of $63,000 in proposed fines following an OSHA inspection prompted by a worker complaint.
> OSHA found that some hospital employees were exposed to potential electric shock, burns, arc flash incidents and electrocution while changing circuit breakers on live electrical panels. Specifically, the employees lacked or did not use personal protective equipment while working with energized electrical equipment; electrical protective equipment was not periodically tested; electrical safety related work practices were not used; and specific procedures were not developed for the control of hazardous energy while replacing electrical breakers.
> ...



That's crazy. Here University Of Penn(Hospital and School) requires ALL electricians to have OSHA 10 and NFPA 70E. Foreman have to have OSHA 30.


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> If they did it would show on the state board of Examniners web site..
> 
> Any Electrical work they are doing they are supose to be pulling permits.
> 
> And if they do have one in there employ that master electrician must add the business name of the hostpital on his or her license..


I see, was just asking because I did not see it mentioned in my post. I agree they should have one, I just did not know how you knew if they did or not. Maybe you should call them and offer your services?


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Lets be realistic about this. I would be willing to bet that I could walk into many facilities, not saying all, and find similar "violations" I am not minimizing the safety issues either. I as a mostly service person, am not going to pull a permit for all the outlets etc that I change. I don't think it is realistic for a hospital maintenance staff either. I think most experienced people know when to pull one or not. I am not sure whether in MA you would need a Master or whether a Journeyman would suffice. I have a copy of 70e now and am a bit overwhelmed by it. In a hospital situation, I can imagine the stress caused by having to shut down a whole panel to change a breaker, but it has to be worked out and am sure it does. I am still looking for a good training class locally that is affordable. I am on the empty knockout and breaker blank patrol for the apartments I service as they get inspected by government agencies. Makes me some extra money. Looking for faulty ebus and exits is another good one.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

nrp3 said:


> Lets be realistic about this. I would be willing to bet that I could walk into many facilities, not saying all, and find similar "violations" I am not minimizing the safety issues either. I as a mostly service person, am not going to pull a permit for all the outlets etc that I change. I don't think it is realistic for a hospital maintenance staff either. I think most experienced people know when to pull one or not. I am not sure whether in MA you would need a Master or whether a Journeyman would suffice. I have a copy of 70e now and am a bit overwhelmed by it. In a hospital situation, I can imagine the stress caused by having to shut down a whole panel to change a breaker, but it has to be worked out and am sure it does. I am still looking for a good training class locally that is affordable. I am on the empty knockout and breaker blank patrol for the apartments I service as they get inspected by government agencies. Makes me some extra money. Looking for faulty ebus and exits is another good one.



But that's just it. You don't have to shut down a whole panel just to change a breaker, as long as the proper PPE and protocol is employed.

I'll agree that a lot of the 70E is over whelming and almost seems impractical but it's a culture change. It's a culture of safety, and keeping people alive.

It works but in the long run it will probably just be blamed for chasing industry out of the country.


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

slickvic277 said:


> But that's just it. You don't have to shut down a whole panel just to change a breaker, as long as the proper PPE and protocol is employed.


Not true, unless you can justify not shutting it off as being a greater hazard than working hot. The 70E is not a guide on how to work on energized equipment, the #1 goal is to deter working energized. 

NFPA 70E Article 130.1 *Justification for work. *Live parts to which an employee might be exposed shall be put into an electrically safe work condition before an employee works on or near them, unless the employer can demonstrate that deenergizing introduces additional or increased hazards or is infeasible due to equipment design or operational limitations. *Zog's note:* If you dont know what "Infeasible" means, look it up; it means "incapable of being done". Dont confuse feasible with convenient.

Energized parts that operate at less than 50 volts to ground are not required to be deenergized if there will be no increased exposure to electrical burns or to explosion due to electric arcs.

NOTE 1: Examples of increased or additional hazards include, but are not limited to, interruption of life support equipment, deactivation of emergency alarm systems, shutdown of hazardous location ventilation equipment 

NOTE 2: Examples of work that may be performed on or near exposed energized electrical conductors or circuit parts because of infeasibility due to equipment design or operational limitations include performing diagnostics and testing (e.g., start-up or troubleshooting) of electric circuits that can only be performed with the circuit energized and work on circuits that form an integral part of a continuous process that would otherwise need to be completely shut down in order to permit work on one circuit or piece of equipment. 

Now, this being a hospital we happen to be discussing, perhaps note 1 applies, but this is for life safety systems, not power to an operating room or other loads that some people consider critical. I have done many midnight outages at hospitals waiting to get word a surgery was complete before killing power to the sub.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Zog said:


> Not true, unless you can justify not shutting it off as being a greater hazard than working hot. The 70E is not a guide on how to work on energized equipment, the #1 goal is to deter working energized.
> 
> NFPA 70E Article 130.1 *Justification for work. *Live parts to which an employee might be exposed shall be put into an electrically safe work condition before an employee works on or near them, unless the employer can demonstrate that deenergizing introduces additional or increased hazards or is infeasible due to equipment design or operational limitations. *Zog's note:* If you dont know what "Infeasible" means, look it up; it means "incapable of being done". Dont confuse feasible with convenient.
> 
> ...


Thanks Zog, you are definitely the man when it comes to the 70E. 

And I do know the rules. I guess my wording was poor.

Instead of saying this,


> protocol is employed.


I should have said,


> unless you can justify not shutting it off as being a greater hazard than working hot.


But the thing that bugs me the most is,


> The 70E is not a guide on how to work on energized equipment,


When the book tells you what steps must be followed when working energized.

Anyways great post:thumbsup:


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

Isn't waiting monster times in emergency a safety problem? Damn hospitals. People dying waiting for service, and OHSA comes in and sites a few rinky-dinky things.

I agree that people shouldn't be working on hot stuff, especially at hospitals because a main trip is more debilitating to people on life support and the billions of equipment there, than just popping a breaker in a warehouse full of lights and refrigerators.

And this article is really about if they spot a safety problem, you should probably address it.

Knowing government sites, they probably had to form a commitee of 12 to handle the safety concerns in addressing the 5 panel fillers they needed. They had daily meetings with engineers and safety supervisors, and received 15 bids which had to be edited and deliberated.... How can OHSA seriously expect a government agency to handle anything in less than 7 months?


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

kaboler said:


> Knowing government sites, they probably had to form a commitee of 12 to handle the safety concerns in addressing the 5 panel fillers they needed. They had daily meetings with engineers and safety supervisors, and received 15 bids which had to be edited and deliberated.... How can OHSA seriously expect a government agency to handle anything in less than 7 months?


Knowing Governmet sites?? You are not even from the same country. I deal with the federal gov nearly every day, and they are more efficient than most companies are. In this country hospitals are not government sites (yet).


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

kaboler said:


> Isn't waiting monster times in emergency a safety problem? Damn hospitals. People dying waiting for service, and OHSA comes in and sites a few rinky-dinky things.
> 
> I agree that people shouldn't be working on hot stuff, especially at hospitals because a main trip is more debilitating to people on life support and the billions of equipment there, than just popping a breaker in a warehouse full of lights and refrigerators.
> 
> ...


Hospitals are different to work in. There is more then OSHA to deal with. The JCAHO inspectors bring fear to hospital administrators. There in more then just the NEC for an electrician to worry about. 
Was the lead electrician in a hospital for 8 years and lost alot of sleep and got lots of ulcers doing things perfect every day, every time because the concept is safety for the patient's who can't help themselves.


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

Yes, in canada, they're government sites.

I worked at a government place recently that told me that if I wanted to work on my 6 foot ladder, I needed a spotter. I'm pretty sure he saw my shoulders slouch and my knees buckle with an "oh my god" in my head.

I wanted to tell him that my drive to the site was probably 1000 times more dangerous than standing on a 6 foot ladder, but he'd shrug too, and tell me if I got hurt he'd get fired.

Safety and reality don't often mix.

Do any of you think about say, the drive to work being dangerous? Lots of smokers out there. Overweight population. And I need a spotter to be up 4 feet on a 6 foot ladder. hahahahahaha.


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

Wirenuting said:


> Was the lead electrician in a hospital for 8 years and lost alot of sleep and got lots of ulcers doing things perfect every day, every time because the concept is safety for the patient's who can't help themselves.


I think I understand that. Can't trip anything!!!!

Tell me, are doctors like, totally awesome when you tell them you need to shut power off to their office? hahahaha.

But I guess you have the system on your side when you're doing such things, so there is an advantage.

Not like asking an oil refinery operator boss that we need to shut down his servers (and the oil refinery itself) because we're changing a ballast.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

In large places like a hospital you have to coordinate shutdowns. You don't just knock on someones door and ask them about it. Same thing at a refinery or other large facility.


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