# Which brand of PLC to learn to program?



## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

I'm planning to take a programming course based on Allen Bradley RSLogix 500 software. The next level of the same program teaches A-B 5000 series. A lot of places I've been in have A-B PLCs so the choice seemed obvious. Recently in a job interview I was told to learn Schneider PLCs because they're supposedly the most popular. What 's the real story? Isn't the basic concept transferable across brands or are they radically different?

I'm bored of running conduit and terminating lights. I need something else.


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## Jhellwig (Jun 18, 2014)

Learn 5000. 500 is still widely used but is older and confined to smaller systems. 

Unless you have a specific place that has a specific system you are interested in it doesn't much matter what brand you learn. The basics are more or less the same. You could even buy your own Plc cheap from automation direct and teach yourself.


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## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

Vintage Sounds said:


> Recently in a job interview I was told to learn Schneider PLCs because they're supposedly the most popular. .. .


Maybe at THEIR facility, but it's not even close. A-B has 42% market share in North America, Siemens is #2 with 11%, Mitsubishi is #3, followed by Omron, THEN Schneider. Elsewhere in the world, Siemens is #1, then Omron, then AB, then Schneider. 

Studio 5000 is expensive for a learner. If you want to start out and understand the fundamentals, buy yourself a small AB Micro 810 for under $100, then download Connected Components Workbench for free, the software that programs it. Low investment in hardware, free software. The programming doesn't translate directly into larger systems, but you will learn the basics and the conventions involved in all PLC programming. Once you have that down, look for classes on Studio 5000 being offered by your local AB distributor. They aren't free, but once you get a certificate saying you took it, that's worth money in a job interview.

And yes, Jhellwig is right about 500, it will be going away soon(ish), so don't bother. It was created for the SLC500 line, which is being phased out now, then they made it good for the ML1000-1500 line, which is also going to be displaced by the Micro800 products eventually, and like I said, that software is free, so expertise on 500 will not have much value in a few years.


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## NC Plc (Mar 24, 2014)

The biggest difference I've noticed when it comes to various brands of PLCs is programming software interface and addressing.

We have Keyence, DL06, and AB PLCs. I consider AB to have the most user-friendly software for programming. automation direct PLCs, though, are far cheaper. You can download the directsoft programming software for free up to 100 lines, that's an easy way to get a taste of what they're like.

I can't say I know what the industry standard is but I have to also mess around with CMORE.



JRaef said:


> Once you have that down, look for classes on Studio 5000 being offered by your local AB distributor. They aren't free, but once you get a certificate saying you took it, that's worth money in a job interview.


I need to remember that.


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

*AB to others easy but not to Siemans*

If you learn AB you can do most of the others, but Siemens is not as easy to transition to from there. 
The last 3 machines we got in were programed with CODESYS, so I guess I am going to have to make that jump soon. 
After 35 years of programing machine control, you never stop learning, things change and get easier, most of the time.


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## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

Yeah, I was an AB guy for a long time and went to work for Siemens, took me forever to figure out how to think like a German... But lots of people I know who learned on Siemens have no trouble adapting to AB (or any other brand for that matter). 

The secret by the way, if anyone ever has to do that, is that with Siemens, you absolutely MUST plan out and organize your ENTIRE project ahead of time BEFORE you start to write programming code. AB (and others) allow you to start writing your program right away when you think about it, then do global changes to fit it into a project when you get to that point. If you do that with Siemens, you end up doing the entire thing twice.


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## KennyW (Aug 31, 2013)

I you can tough it through the rather steep learning curve, learn the Codesys environment. 

It is free to download, and you can run/simulate your programming on the fly. Since it is a true IEC 61131 environment, you are learning the "core" programming languages. 

Most other vendors' software is loosely based around 61131 ( Like Rockwell, but it is definitely only very loosely in some cases) so if you learn it you can more or less program anything. 

It is more like a piece of engineering software though, very powerful but not terribly intuitive. Later versions may be better but I work with Codesys 2.3 and it seems pretty amateur from a interface perspective compare to Logix Designer, but it is nonetheless very powerful.

I agree with the sentiment that it is easier to migrate from a "european" type of environment like Siemens or Codesys to Rockwell, rather than vice versa, but either can be done.

At the end of the day it is knowing how the integration of various IO devices and communications need to work that is the challenging part of any make. Programming is programming.


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## NC Plc (Mar 24, 2014)

Well when I took my programming class almost everything was in AB and for the last month of the class we programmed Seimens. I had to set up a bunch of lights on timers and make them all come on and off to simulate processes starting and stopping based on various sensors and timers at our workstation.

It was very difficult to switch over to Seimens when I had become so accustomed to AB. 

Why is it easier to come from Seimens to AB than vice versa?


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## KennyW (Aug 31, 2013)

It's easier to move from something that is unintuitive to something that is intuitive. 

What I don't like about Siemens is it's really no more powerful than AB, just more awkard to use. At least with Codesys you get some additional functionality in exchange for the crappier interface.

For maintenance guys in a plant, you really can't beat Allen Bradley. If anything the fact that it's so easy to get your fingers into can be a bad thing, because the first thing people tend to do when a machine starts misbehaving is monkey with the program, cuz it's easy. 

For machine OEMS that need lean and mean, you really can't beat a lot of the Codesys products like Wago/Beckhoff. Totally opposite strengths and weaknesses to Rockwell.


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## triden (Jun 13, 2012)

AB is popular in sawmills (American equipment) and the USA. Up here it's more of a hodgepodge of everything else. I prefer Modicon as I am a Unity master myself and have programmed some very large (>$50 million) plants with it. Are you paying for the course yourself or is company paying? That would make a big difference for me. If you're a beginner you would be better off learning generic ladder or function block rather than a specific architecture. After that it's just learning the quirks and syntax of different systems. I can usually jump to a brand new platform after a day or two of playing around and complete almost anything I want.


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## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

Jhellwig said:


> Learn 5000. 500 is still widely used but is older and confined to smaller systems.
> 
> Unless you have a specific place that has a specific system you are interested in it doesn't much matter what brand you learn. The basics are more or less the same. You could even buy your own Plc cheap from automation direct and teach yourself.





JRaef said:


> Maybe at THEIR facility, but it's not even close. A-B has 42% market share in North America, Siemens is #2 with 11%, Mitsubishi is #3, followed by Omron, THEN Schneider. Elsewhere in the world, Siemens is #1, then Omron, then AB, then Schneider.
> 
> Studio 5000 is expensive for a learner. If you want to start out and understand the fundamentals, buy yourself a small AB Micro 810 for under $100, then download Connected Components Workbench for free, the software that programs it. Low investment in hardware, free software. The programming doesn't translate directly into larger systems, but you will learn the basics and the conventions involved in all PLC programming. Once you have that down, look for classes on Studio 5000 being offered by your local AB distributor. They aren't free, but once you get a certificate saying you took it, that's worth money in a job interview.
> 
> And yes, Jhellwig is right about 500, it will be going away soon(ish), so don't bother. It was created for the SLC500 line, which is being phased out now, then they made it good for the ML1000-1500 line, which is also going to be displaced by the Micro800 products eventually, and like I said, that software is free, so expertise on 500 will not have much value in a few years.


Thanks. This company I interviewed at was actually one that sells and services motors and pumps, as well as running a rewind shop. I didn't get the job, as I had no experience with VFDs or PLCs and also am not a journeyman yet. Their service guys go to various customer owned facilities, probably encountering legacy equipment. In that situation would it make more sense to learn on the 500? I'm not sure why the company owner suggested I learn Schneider or ABB equipment.



triden said:


> AB is popular in sawmills (American equipment) and the USA. Up here it's more of a hodgepodge of everything else. I prefer Modicon as I am a Unity master myself and have programmed some very large (>$50 million) plants with it. Are you paying for the course yourself or is company paying? That would make a big difference for me. If you're a beginner you would be better off learning generic ladder or function block rather than a specific architecture. After that it's just learning the quirks and syntax of different systems. I can usually jump to a brand new platform after a day or two of playing around and complete almost anything I want.


I am paying for the course myself. My company is an industrial electrical contractor, but doesn't do this type of work. We just install things and do very little service. I originally tried to get on at a company that would maybe train/expose me to this stuff, but nobody would take me without having some experience/knowledge and now that the downturn has flooded the Calgary market with experienced guys I pretty much have accepted that I need to pay to play. 



KennyW said:


> I you can tough it through the rather steep learning curve, learn the Codesys environment.
> 
> It is free to download, and you can run/simulate your programming on the fly. Since it is a true IEC 61131 environment, you are learning the "core" programming languages.
> 
> ...


Thanks. I will give Codesys a try. Whose equipment actually uses it? I'm going to 4th year trade school in January, where apparently they do teach some PLC basics, but my friends who have done it say it's not very challenging or in-depth. I do know they use A-B equipment because last year they added VFDs to third year motors class, and those were Powerflex 70s. 

This is the course I was planning to take:

500 course

5000 course

Expensive, but it seems like a pretty thorough course and I can take it in bits and pieces when I have the time.


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## Hybwolf (Jul 31, 2011)

JRaef said:


> Maybe at THEIR facility, but it's not even close. A-B has 42% market share in North America, Siemens is #2 with 11%, Mitsubishi is #3, followed by Omron, THEN Schneider. Elsewhere in the world, Siemens is #1, then Omron, then AB, then Schneider.
> 
> Studio 5000 is expensive for a learner. If you want to start out and understand the fundamentals, buy yourself a small AB Micro 810 for under $100, then download Connected Components Workbench for free, the software that programs it. Low investment in hardware, free software. The programming doesn't translate directly into larger systems, but you will learn the basics and the conventions involved in all PLC programming. Once you have that down, look for classes on Studio 5000 being offered by your local AB distributor. They aren't free, but once you get a certificate saying you took it, that's worth money in a job interview.
> 
> And yes, Jhellwig is right about 500, it will be going away soon(ish), so don't bother. It was created for the SLC500 line, which is being phased out now, then they made it good for the ML1000-1500 line, which is also going to be displaced by the Micro800 products eventually, and like I said, that software is free, so expertise on 500 will not have much value in a few years.


How many years untill AB stops support for the Micrologix Line? We have over 100 micrologix 1100's in operation in our pump stations. We Have been slowy uprading to the Micrologix 1100 from a Consolidated Electric controller. Just finnished the last station a few weeks ago!


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## AK_sparky (Aug 13, 2013)

When I was installing industrial control systems I saw a lot of AB. And a good amount of Siemens. 

However, at my current job we use hardened controllers almost exclusively, from brands companies most electricians will never have heard of, let alone ever see or touch. Those are all programmed with Codesys. It seems like a lot of stuff is heading that way.

I would say you would be safe learning AB, Siemens, or Codesys. As others have said, AB is expensive, Siemens is non-intuitive, Codesys for pretty much no cost.


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## NC Plc (Mar 24, 2014)

I will look into learning Codesys. Is it ladder logic based like AB/Directsoft/etc or is it different? I only have experience with ladder logic based stuff. When you say "hardened controllers" what do you mean specifically? 

Also Vintage you should look into building a PLC trainer. You can build one for fairly cheap so long as you salvage outputs from junkyards (small motors, etc) and for digital inputs you can just use switches. Cheap analog inputs would be stuff like temperature or pressure sensors. Another option for analog inputs is a 4-20ma generator/simulator/whatever. I can't get one until December.

I'm actually assembling a PLC trainer for my company (mostly for myself to train on) so I can post pictures of it if you want. It will not be completed this weekend because I need some parts but I have a few things on it. Switches, surge protector, a power supply or two, etc. It's not pretty but at least it's a way for me to practice PLC stuff. If I have the time I hope to put our CMORE HMI on it.


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

*rexroth or wago*



Vintage Sounds said:


> Thanks.
> I will give Codesys a try. Whose equipment actually uses it? I'm going to 4th year trade school in January, where apparently they do teach some PLC basics, but my friends who have done it say it's not very challenging or in-depth. I do know they use A-B equipment because last year they added VFDs to third year motors class, and those were Powerflex 70s.
> 
> Expensive, but it seems like a pretty thorough course and I can take it in bits and pieces when I have the time.


Rexroth and wago are the ones in my plant.
But I was told to buy an aundro ( or something like that )to run it and play with it. I am going to bite that bullet soon.


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## triden (Jun 13, 2012)

Schneider's new Modicon M221/M251 offering is codesys-based. I have one on my desk, but I haven't programmed it yet. Looks like it's suppose to compete with Automation Destruct and the like.


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## markbrandx (Oct 11, 2015)

It has been my experience over the years to see most US employers looking for the A-B programming experience. Not to say the others are 2nd rate or bad, not at all. A-B is a very popular price leader. The last I had heard A-B had 60% of the US plc market, but that was back in the 90's.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

I was just browsing around and saw this 

http://store.codesys.com/codesys-control-for-raspberry-pi-sl.html

Is it me or is that a pretty good learning opportunity for next to no investment?


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## KennyW (Aug 31, 2013)

Yes that's the arduino based controller mentioned previously. It's more of a hobbyist type thing but it gets you some hardware.


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## Jabberwoky (Sep 2, 2012)

My formal training is almost entirely AB which has a good look and is fairly user friendly. AB does have some annoying license issues while Mitsubishi does not have license restrictions you just buy the software. The Mitsubishi and Omron software is basic with some good secondary software for motion controls. GX developer reminds me of those old unix based engineer developed interfaces.

Our facility started out almost entirely Mitsubishi and Omron. In the past two years we were introduced with AB on 3 new lines and a refit of an old machine. Now we are evaluating removing all the AB gear because of the high failure rates.


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## NC Plc (Mar 24, 2014)

Jabberwoky said:


> In the past two years we were introduced with AB on 3 new lines and a refit of an old machine. Now we are evaluating removing all the AB gear because of the high failure rates.


I was under the impression with AB you pay the high price for reliability. Why are they failing? Is it hardware or software related?


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## triden (Jun 13, 2012)

NC Plc said:


> I was under the impression with AB you pay the high price for reliability. Why are they failing? Is it hardware or software related?


Yea that's odd and should be investigated. Last I checked the MTBF on an AB CPU was somewhere around 105 years.


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## Canada eh (Mar 24, 2014)

AK_sparky said:


> When I was installing industrial control systems I saw a lot of AB. And a good amount of Siemens.
> 
> However, at my current job we use hardened controllers almost exclusively, from brands companies most electricians will never have heard of, let alone ever see or touch. Those are all programmed with Codesys. It seems like a lot of stuff is heading that way.
> 
> I would say you would be safe learning AB, Siemens, or Codesys. As others have said, AB is expensive, Siemens is non-intuitive, Codesys for pretty much no cost.



Just out of curiosity, is Bedrock one of the companies you use? 


Sent from my iPhone using electriciantalk.com


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## Electrorecycler (Apr 3, 2013)

triden said:


> Yea that's odd and should be investigated. Last I checked the MTBF on an AB CPU was somewhere around 105 years.


 Just yesterday I found an old SLC 5/03 processor and power supply in a very damaged rack, sitting in a scrap pile. It would have been dumped into a scrap truck, then dumped from there into the scrap pile and then probably moved my a bobcat who knows how many times. They were right on the edge of going into the shredder. I pulled them and put them into my test rack. They both still worked and the processor still had the program intact. That's a testament to the quality of AB PLC's. And I now have a spare processor in case one of mine craps out. :thumbup:


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## Jabberwoky (Sep 2, 2012)

NC Plc said:


> I was under the impression with AB you pay the high price for reliability. Why are they failing? Is it hardware or software related?


The AB PLC components are fine its the motors and drives. Just replaced the 21st or 22nd servo motor tonight (lost track after around 15). I'm thinking we have replaced 8 drives in two years. Rockwell said the vibrations are a big failure reason although we can not get an official work report because we are considered a third party. The machine manufacturer is not saying much also due to liability. All replacements so far have been covered under warranty from either Rockwell or the machine maker. The massive amount of downtime and maintenance has cost us easily in the seven figures. It may be cheaper to farm out some of the jobs and replace the machine with a copy of our 4th line all Mitsubishi controls and drives.


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## NC Plc (Mar 24, 2014)

I'm really confused as to what is causing the vibration issues. Why are you having these issues with AB lines but not with Mitsubishi lines? Are the only differences between them the PLCs?

I mean I've had to replace PLCs when they were taken out by shorts or the cold, but never due to vibration.


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## Jabberwoky (Sep 2, 2012)

NC Plc said:


> I'm really confused as to what is causing the vibration issues. Why are you having these issues with AB lines but not with Mitsubishi lines? Are the only differences between them the PLCs?
> 
> I mean I've had to replace PLCs when they were taken out by shorts or the cold, but never due to vibration.


Sorry, I forgot to mention we are a metal stamping amd assembly factory. Rockwell measured vibration spikes up into the 9G range. This tore in half some door hinges and broken or dislodged 2 inch bolts in I-beams. The engineer mentioned during the testing that their motors might be good for 2.5G. Which is rather low considering the brake on the motor generates a 5G spike. I guess the Allen Bradley equipment can not handle that 30,000 times a day but the Mitsubishi gear seems fine.


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## B-Nabs (Jun 4, 2014)

priyankagupta said:


> Possibly at THEIR office, yet it's off by a long shot. A-B has 42% piece of the overall industry in North America, Siemens is #2 with 11%, Mitsubishi is #3, trailed by Omron, At that point Schneider. Somewhere else on the planet, Siemens is #1, at that point Omron, at that point Stomach muscle, at that point Schneider.
> 
> Studio 5000 is costly for a student. On the off chance that you need to begin and comprehend the basics, get yourself a little Stomach muscle Small scale 810 for under $100, at that point download Associated Segments Workbench for nothing, the product that programs it. Low interest in equipment, free programming. The programming doesn't make an interpretation of straightforwardly into bigger frameworks, yet you will take in the nuts and bolts and the traditions associated with all PLC programming. When you have that down, search for classes on Studio 5000 being offered by your neighborhood Stomach muscle wholesaler. They aren't free, yet once you get an endorsement saying you took it, that is worth cash in a prospective employee meet-up.
> 
> What's more, indeed, Jhellwig is ideal around 500, it will leave soon(ish don't as well), trouble. It was made for the SLC500 line, which is being eliminated now, at that point they made it useful for the ML1000-1500 line, which is likewise going to be dislodged by the Micro800 items in the end, and like I stated, that product is free, so aptitude on 500 won't have much an incentive in a couple of years.


Did you just google translate JRaef's reply from 3 years ago? Stomach muscle? Employment meet-up? Wtf? 

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

B-Nabs said:


> Did you just google translate JRaef's reply from 3 years ago? Stomach muscle? Employment meet-up? Wtf?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


IGoogle is translating "AB" to "Stomach Muscle" which is my favorite Christmas present this year, a couple days late. 

Edit - it's translating AB, not Rockwell, now it make sense


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## Rora (Jan 31, 2017)

B-Nabs said:


> Did you just google translate JRaef's reply from 3 years ago? Stomach muscle? Employment meet-up? Wtf?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


I'm guessing "AB" (Allen-Bradley) translated to "ab(s)" (stomach muscles)

Re: OP--what I've seen on jobs postings seem to match JRaef's numbers, roughly half want ABB, maybe 30-40% is mixed between Siemens, Schneider, etc, and the rest are rando industry-specific control platforms.

You might say ABB is an obvious choice because it has the highest market share, but also consider the 50-60% chance that it won't be ABB and you're left gambling with expensive training programs since an employer could have anything.

I'm inclined to think it's not worth that much on paper vs. "real" experience anyways, and between that and taking a 40/60 that it won't be some rando platform kind of reinforces that.

Although in reality, the training would be valuable and relatively easy to adapt to other platforms, however, employers (*cough* HR) will probably want to see experience with their vendor of choice. If you think you'd get decent value just for your own professional development then go for it, but I wouldn't bank a huge amount of value on it being a gamechanging credential. As others have pointed out, there are much cheaper ways to learn IEC 61131.


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## B-Nabs (Jun 4, 2014)

I understand what happened, I just don't understand why priyankagupta apparently pasted JRaef's post from 3 years ago into a translator, translated it into some other language, then back again, and pasted it back into this 3 year old thread. 

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

B-Nabs said:


> I understand what happened, I just don't understand why priyankagupta apparently pasted JRaef's post from 3 years ago into a translator, translated it into some other language, then back again, and pasted it back into this 3 year old thread.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


I am very curious. I am pretty sure it's a clever forum spam bot method to build up some post count, so it can spam with full privileges when the time comes.


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## oliquir (Jan 13, 2011)

NC Plc said:


> I was under the impression with AB you pay the high price for reliability. Why are they failing? Is it hardware or software related?



not at all, i had used about every brand on the market and ab isn't more though than others, the oldest plc that i have that is running is a GE Fanuc Series One PLC (koyo dl300 series) and it is in a cabinet outside with temps going from -30C to 30C for more than 25 years now!!


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