# Apprentices and small copper scrap



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

That sounds alot like stealing to me. Does your shop have a copper policy?


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

Journeyman don't typically give the apprentices the scrap. That call is usually made higher up. Foreman, PM, Owner, etc. Know the policy. And it can change job to job. Lunch box size = theft. Theft will get you nowhere fast.

When I was a cub, I was transferred from one project to another. That first day on site, we had to demo some feeders. I was directed by the foreman to work with the other 3 apprentices on site. The foreman left for the day after lunch for a doctors appointment. When we were done yanking out the wire, we had 4 coils of 1/0 about 200' long. I specifically asked "where we putting this?" Other guys said "in your truck". There was 4 coils and 4 of us, and the rabbit is "supposed" to go to the apprentices. 

Oops, little did I know, we stole that wire. The foreman had plans to reuse some of it. So a meeting was called and the foreman asked the entire crew if anyone knew what happened to the wire. No one said a word. I couldn't believe it. People were lying and covering things up. I returned my share and made it clear I didn't steal it. 3 apprentices lost their jobs for $150 in copper. That's just stupid. 

But, if offered, don't turn it down. A trash barrel of 10 and 12 is between $450-$500.


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## Bbsound (Dec 16, 2011)

It depends on your company policy and what the owner wants to happen with it. Sometimes the plans say to turn it over to the owner. ( but that is rare )

I will through the apprentices a bone occasionally but I try to get them to use it to buy/upgrade tools.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

Round here apprentices usually get first dibs on copper. I've got my bitchin' little wire stripping machine now, though, so their claims will go unheeded with me.


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## chewy (May 9, 2010)

Im honest by nature, I was talked into doing it once but the $300 wasnt worth the paranoia and the seriously close call I had getting caught. I wouldnt do it again I dont think, its not worth my job.


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## Ty Wrapp (Aug 24, 2011)

All scrap goes into the recycle dumpster at the shop. Not enough copper in telephone wire to be worth the hassle.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

In my local, all copper goes to the apprentice(s) on the job. The better journeymen will help them with it and the better foremen will make time available for 'cleaning up the jobsite'. The better apprentices learn to appreciate the help and buy break or lunch on occasion.

It works out for everyone - no one measures a pull short so the contractor never buys a pull twice, it is an acceptable way to reward the apprentices and the job site gets cleaned up. For the couple of dollars it is worth, giving the rabbit to the kids just makes sense.

On some jobs the end customer will claim the copper and they get it, but that is usually only when the customer is supplying the material ( power houses for example ).


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

If you're doing something you're afraid to admit, you're doing something wrong. Stop doing it.

-John


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

It pains me to say this but I throw it overboard now. It's just easier than losing my job for a couple bucks.


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## LARMGUY (Aug 22, 2010)

nolabama said:


> It pains me to say this but I throw it overboard now. It's just easier than losing my job for a couple bucks.


 
   

I'm goin diving!


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

There's not much worst in life, than a thief.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Unless the owner or his representative gives you the "OK", it is stealing. On government jobs the FBI can show up at your door.

Happened on a job we were doing testing on, the apprentices were given the copper by the mechanics, the building facility personnel wanted it and claimed it was stolen. In come the FBI.

It is not the mechanics, the apprentices or the local gimp thief's to take.


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## MollyHatchet29 (Jan 24, 2012)

mcclary's electrical said:


> There's not much worst in life, than a thief.


Aside from someone who defaces people's stuff.


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## scooter11 (Jan 25, 2012)

Around here its like tradition giving the apprentices the scrap. I haven't been on a job where there wasn't any scrap given unless the owners wanted it, which never happens. First year wage isn't much when you realize how much tools are and all the different things you need.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

scooter11 said:


> Around here its like tradition giving the apprentices the scrap. I haven't been on a job where there wasn't any scrap given unless the owners wanted it, which never happens. First year wage isn't much when you realize how much tools are and all the different things you need.


Justifying stealing with the low wage argument does not make it right.

Justifying stealing with the tradition argument does not make it right.

Taking something that was bought and paid for by someone else with out permission is stealing.



Steal
1.
to take (the property of another or others) without permission or right, especially secretly or by force: A pickpocket stole his watch.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

Really depends on your company policy, if in doubt, dont touch.

When I was a helper, I picked up every single piece of copper that hit the floor. This was ok at the company I worked at and most guys new in the trade did. All my tools and drills were bought with scrap money.

For what its worth, as an owner, I still collect every single piece of copper that hit the ground. Scrapping pays off!


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## LARMGUY (Aug 22, 2010)

As an owner you should know all material bought, installed, and billed to the job is the customers. Have it in your contract where the scrap goes.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

I believe in recycling and while I dislike all the crap that seems to happen because of copper, I do like to think it ends up being recycled in lie of the trash.

All one has to do is ask the boss, get permission.

I have seen men digging in the dumpster for AL and CU and I applaud them. BUt to take it and have to hide it, seems to speak for it's self.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

Haiday said:


> Okay, so this is somewhat of a taboo topic obviously, so I hesitate to bring it up with anyone who I work with. How accepted is it, generally, for Journeymen to be giving apprentices scrap copper from jobs we both work on? I mean, it was made very clear to me not to mention or let anyone see it being taken out, and I hesitated about even posting here, but obviously I am reasonably anonymous. Incidentally I just started my apprenticeship through a JATC office in my state, and started working on a job as a pre-apprentice until the next class starts.
> 
> The reason I ask this is because I had an "incident" in which, through a variety of circumstances, lead to me ferrying cut up "lunchbox size" copper around the main shop we are all dispatched from at the start of our shift. I got flustered and dropped some out of the black plastic bag it was in, in front of witnesses, and ending up just placing it in our cage. I did a few other things wrong so it was pretty much a completely terrible off-night. Dreading going in tonight, but hopefully it won't be as bad as I thought.


Congrats! You are now officially a thief! Next time it should be easier!


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## randas (Dec 14, 2008)

LARMGUY said:


> As an owner you should know all material bought, installed, and billed to the job is the customers. Have it in your contract where the scrap goes.


T&M you may have an argument, but a quoted job the customer is paying for the finished product described in the contract. Wire left over from a pull is not the customers in this case IMO


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

Don't steal copper, steal hours.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Does ET have a monopoly on high horses? 

Scrap wire works like this.

Sometimes it's part of the jobs contract that either,

A) the owner of the building or the customer claims it.
B) the Laborer/Demo Contractor gets it. (Thus, is responsible for removing it)
C) the Electrical Contractor owns it.

Outside of these three scenario's I have never ever seen anyone have a problem with the electricians taking the scrap, be it, removed old stuff, left over new stuff, or the clippings from NM or MC rough ins.

Before the union hater ******* chime in, I have worked for both non union and union companies. This applies equally.


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

slickvic277 said:


> Does ET have a monopoly on high horses?
> 
> Scrap wire works like this.
> Sometimes it's part of the jobs contract that either,
> ...


The scenarios you mentioned makes sense. However, the OP was stealing the copper and got caught when his bag spilled. Completely different scenario then the three you mentioned.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Chris1971 said:


> The scenarios you mentioned makes sense. However, the OP was stealing the copper and got caught when his bag spilled. Completely different scenario then the three you mentioned.


True.
But I was more or less responding to the chest thumpers.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

slickvic277 said:


> True.
> But I was more or less responding to the chest thumpers.


We had close to 50G's in scrap copper, steel, aluminum, brass and lead last year. That is worth check thumping over.

Last company I was with two men got in a fight over the cash from scrap, have seen apprentices stealing, a labor was burned when I was an apprentice taking copper, and the deal I noted about about the FBI. 

Better to set rules and stick to them.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

brian john said:


> We had close to 50G's in scrap copper, steel, aluminum, brass and lead last year. That is worth check thumping over.


Who's we?
Don't you do testing?


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## sparky970 (Mar 19, 2008)

At one of our sites we would save the copper. When we had a truckload, several thousands pounds, we would cash it in. Half would go to the hall and the other have would be used for lunches, Powerade, microwave, and the like


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

This thread makes me sad.

Lots of slinging the thief word around without justification.

Why?

Scrap copper, unless otherwise stated is garbage. Just because it has value doesn't mean it is stealing. It is garbage. If the owner of the garbage wanted it, they would say so, they would make provisions to put it aside, they would spend their OWN money to deal with it ( ie, have an employee scrap it ). 

But it is almost never worth it to them, since they view it as garbage. anecdotes about the Feds showing up on jobsites to deal with copper issues aside.


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

eejack said:


> This thread makes me sad.
> 
> Lots of slinging the thief word around without justification.
> 
> ...



Do you have permission to take what you call garbage? If not, it's stealing.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Chris1971 said:


> Do you have permission to take what you call garbage? If not, it's stealing.


Yes. The apprentice has the permission of his journeyman, the journeyman typically checks with their foreman. 

Decent contractors understand the value of the scrap very well - it is a cheap reward to the crew and not worth the man power to deal with. They give their permission due to their own inaction and indifference.

The only time it becomes an issue is when the apprentice, having gone through all the effort of putting the scrap together, having taken to the yard ( or home to strip for extra value ) and puts a dollar value on the garbage.

Then usually what happens is some one gets all whiny and butthurt that they deserve it for themselves and start talking about it being stealing.

However, let us race to the bottom and call each other thieves, all the copper ends up in the dumps not getting recycled, and we end up discouraging people from apprenticing in the trades.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

slickvic277 said:


> Who's we?
> Don't you do testing?


Switchgear modifications, battery maintenance, with installation and disposal, switchgear replacements, testing, controls, generators, transfer switches and transfer controls, UPS systems, IR, power quality, grounding inspections and repairs and electrical work is all part of what we do.

We solve problems for electrical contractors doing anything out of the ordinary and a whole lot of ordinary.


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

eejack said:


> However, let us race to the bottom and call each other thieves, all the copper ends up in the dumps not getting recycled, and we end up discouraging people from apprenticing in the trades.


Did you read what the original OP posted? He was stealing copper when he spilled the bag in front of some coworkers at the shop he works at. Looks like the OP won the race to the bottom. I hope he gets fired for stealing.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Chris1971 said:


> Did you read what the original OP posted? He was stealing copper when he spilled the bag in front of some coworkers at the shop he works at. Looks like the OP won the race to the bottom. I hope he gets fired for stealing.


Actually, I read what OP wrote. Copper, given to him by his journeyman. Didn't mention stealing. 

For all you know it could be a hazing thing from his local - make the kid walk around all day with a bucket of wirenuts in case some journeyman might need one kind of thing.

Heck, I sent an apprentice out to sift dirt for the ground cannisters today ( thanks to the thread in the general discussion board ). 

But we don't know.

What we do know is "given to him by his journeyman". You want to just assume that is stealing - so do others in this thread. I find it sad that you all think that way.


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## Control Freak (Mar 8, 2008)

If it's scrap I don't feel that it is stealing. However if it isnt scrap and is going to be reused or is long enough for a pull then that's a different story.

When I was an apprentice in my first shop we were told that anything under 30 feet on the reel was scrap. A fellow apprentice took 45 feet of #8s an got whacked on the spot..bad layoff and sent down to the hall..
A bad layoff is hell for an apprentice.

Bottom line is ask!


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

slickvic277 said:


> Now let the union's hater chime in, I have worked for both non union and union companies. This applies equally.


Fixed it for you


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

eejack said:


> Actually, I read what OP wrote. Copper, given to him by his journeyman. Didn't mention stealing.
> 
> For all you know it could be a hazing thing from his local - make the kid walk around all day with a bucket of wirenuts in case some journeyman might need one kind of thing.
> 
> ...


I think you need to read the post again. Why would he need to sneak it out if it wasn't stealing??? Kind of like if it isn't nailed down you can take it and if you can pry it loose, it wasn't nailed down!!!


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## chewy (May 9, 2010)

If he is guilty of anything its for being a dumbass.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

slickvic277 said:


> Before the union hater ******* chime in, I have worked for both non union and union companies. This applies equally.



Copper the new gold (or silver) at least at current rates for scrap has nothing to do with who you work for and more about the cash possible and who you are your moral character. 

As I said I like to see all copper and aluminum recycled. With the price of scrap if a company does not have a policy it should. Labor organizations could take the lead and set rules as well.


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## kbsparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Chris1971 said:


> Do you have permission to take what you call garbage? If not, it's stealing.


Are you required to clean up your own mess from the jobsite?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

kbsparky said:


> Are you required to clean up your own mess from the jobsite?


To me there is a difference between picking up the scraps of #12, #10 AWG and taking large cuttings of wire pulls. Where the cut off is has to be determined by those in charge. Especially when the scrap takers are stripping and cutting the copper to fit tool boxes or lunch boxes.


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## Haiday (Apr 9, 2012)

Ah, I didn't see this thread blow up quite so fast. To be precise I wasn't "caught stealing" the copper. I was literally transporting the copper from the truck to a company cage when I dropped it. I was nervous because I didn't actually know where I stood with it. There is not a place we dump off the scrap copper that I am aware of, it just sits around the shop for a bit if the pieces leftover are potentially useful.

After spending a day (night shift actually) back on the job, I probably had a huge over-reaction to the incident. 


I understand that taking such copper is on some level stealing from the company, but it is accepted pretty far up the chain so I am not losing sleep. (Well, after the panic attack from that night of course) So I am not sure I will be accepting such plunder in the future, really have to consider if it is worth the trouble at all in the first place.


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## Haiday (Apr 9, 2012)

Oh yes, one more thing. I do own up to having about 15ish pounds of 3/0 and 4/0 wire in my room, from a transformer and disconnect I helped hook up (tightened some bolts, zip tied a few wires, tried to learn something.) When I took it in the first place it was made pretty evident that it was a bit of an "open secret" that I DAMN well better not talk about to anyone. Not really sure what to think about that, but the fact that the foreman I report to knows about it and split up a bit of wire from another job with all the apprentices leads me to believe I won't land it hot water from this.


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

Haiday said:


> Oh yes, one more thing. I do own up to having about 15ish pounds of 3/0 and 4/0 wire in my room, from a transformer and disconnect I helped hook up (tightened some bolts, zip tied a few wires, tried to learn something.) When I took it in the first place it was made pretty evident that it was a bit of an "open secret" that I DAMN well better not talk about to anyone. Not really sure what to think about that, but the fact that the foreman I report to knows about it and split up a bit of wire from another job with all the apprentices leads me to believe I won't land it hot water from this.


Yeah, you're golden.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Frasbee said:


> Yeah, you're golden.


 
Back peddle........


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## vinister (Apr 11, 2012)

The lead guy at our shop was fired for stealing the scrap. We generate about 10 barells of compacted scrap per week. He was loading them all up into his truck. He would even ask people to help him and he would 'buy beers'. A bit ironic but he was a dink so nobody wanted to sit and have beers with him anyways, free or not. 

Anyways a few of us got fed up and asked for a scrap wire account of some sort so we could have pizza nights or whatever. In the end the management decided to use it to fund the annual Christmas party. It was worth it, lots of free goodies at the party and great food. 

If the guy knows he gets to profit from the scrap - he will create more scrap. Money controls behavior, pretty much always.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

IMO it's almost always the owner of the electrical contractors property. It's up to him to decide what to do with it. Unless your doing it on your own time it probably has already cost him more than it is worth.


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## kbsparky (Sep 20, 2007)

AS a business owner, I don't have the time to mess with small copper scraps.

I allow my guys (and gals when present) to keep it as long as they:

1) Allow me to reclaim any larger pieces that I may deem to be usable elsewhere

2) Collect and handle it on their own time

3) Are not wasteful when rough-wiring

So far, this arrangement has worked out for me. Your mileage may vary.


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## Pistol (Aug 16, 2012)

Depends on the situation, but for the most part chain of command... if the owner doesn't know or care, then depending on quantity the foreman would not care either, leaving it up to the JW's to make the decision... most the time JW's either split it up with the AW's or just let them have it. AW's should never count on it to go to them, do a good job and good work will be rewarded in kind.


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## mikeh32 (Feb 16, 2009)

certain jobs/contractors want it back

I have been given scrap, but I will also buy pizza for anyone I am working with. 

I was on one job, where they collected all scrap, then would buy lunch for all the electricians every friday.

They had some damn good food too, not pizza like.

Then on the last day, they had a full buffet for every trade on the job.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

He had it cut up in small enough pieces to fit in his box. When he dropped it, he was paranoid, so it is PLAIN TO SEE that he knew it was wrong. Wheter givn to him by the jman or not, it'sstill stealing. If the jamn said here, take this scap, but you gotta cut it up and take it out in your box without anybody seeing it, it's easy to see that they both know it was stealing.


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

Scrap...mongo...rabbit..whatever you call it...it's the foreman's, general foreman's, or owners call. There are jobs that have been bought with copper reclamation built in. Then there are other jobs where it's well known that a "certain foreman" is a scrap hound. You have to play it by ear, and the rules change with the supervision and the shop you're in. Be discrete, never steal, always get permission...and it helps to make sure the foreman gets a "cut" when there's a big haul. 

Steve from NYC


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