# 4 hours service change, page 1



## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

I'd love to do one of these outdoor, all-in-one's just one time. Looks like fun, actually. Honest question... If I ever travel to Arizona, would you let me help with one?


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

CSED's are abundant in california as well.

~Matt


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

tsk,,,,tsk,,,,somebody's fibbing. The sun moves 4 hrs worth in the pictures, and he hasn't even put it back yet:whistling2:


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## Breakfasteatre (Sep 8, 2009)

i really appreciate all the photos, ive gone through all your previous threads as well


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

*4 hour service change, page 2.*

Got the new panel in place without killing myself. I wrapped a bunch of heavy plastic sheeting around the POCO wires to give myself a little more insulation in case they got scraped/pinched in the raw hole.

It's all down hill now.











Make up the panel.

The PVC that feeds a sub panel in the garage ended up looking like crap. The phone box was in the way and the cable box was in the way of the phone box. The phone riser was rigid plastic and didn't want to give me any play. I tried for a few minutes to find a better solution then decided it was close enough. Sealtight it is.

Looking at the pics, I am not really happy. The wires somehow looked neater/cleaner when I was there. I did have to splice the sub neutral and ground. 











POCO didn't return to energize until around 2PM. I took a long lunch and strolled thru Harbor Freight. Labeled everything and called it a day.










It make things sooo easy when you can park the truck ten feet from the panel. 70 to 80 degrees doesn't hurt either.










There are of course violations but I didn't point them out to the two inspectors and I won't point them out to you. :jester:

POCO inspector tried to fail me because I caulked all around the panel to keep water and bugs out of the wall. No eaves on this one and the scupper is right over the panel. Inspector said "No 1/4" air gap behind panel" I said "Sure there is" and pointed out the stand offs. She said "You can't caulk around the panel because that eliminates the air gap". 

I was my usual charming self and got a green tag. 


She brought their spec book to show me and it said "1/4" air gap" with arrows pointing behind the panel, not at the edges of the panel. I thought that strengthed my position but she still insisted that she was right.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Ask her what she thinks is behind the panel if it's not air.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

I still want to know why you stagger your breakers throughout the panel.

~Matt


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> If I ever travel to Arizona, would you let me help with one?


Hell yeah! You don't really want to come here in the summer though.



> The sun moves 4 hrs worth in the pictures, and he hasn't even put it back yet


Got there at 8AM and was *done by noon*....maybe 12:15 :laughing:

City inspector showed at 12:45, POCO inspector showed at 1:45, POCO linenan showed around 3:30.




> I still want to know why you stagger your breakers throughout the panel.


Same reason as in the last one. I try to give the AC breakers some breathing room. Top two on the right are AC condensers. Top left it the oven.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> Ask her what she thinks is behind the panel if it's not air.


Exactly, its not like you filled it with spray foam. The sealant around 3 edges of the panel is better rain protection IMO anyway. I have done it in the past when needed.

~Matt


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

TOOL_5150 said:


> I still want to know why you stagger your breakers throughout the panel.
> 
> ~Matt


My guess would be that's where the wires reached to, so he wanted to keep as many as possible to their maximum length. Helps out the next guy.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> My guess would be that's where the wires reached to, so he wanted to keep as many as possible to their maximum length. Helps out the next guy.


Never really thought about it that way. That is kind of considerate. Im all for considering the next guy to come along, because often with my customers - I am the next guy.

~Matt


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## Voltech (Nov 30, 2009)

220/221 said:


> I knew this one would be cake. It's a modern panel with proper grounding and bonding. The bus was burned at one of the Ac breakers and there were a crapload of twins in it.
> 
> POCO disconnected @ 8AM. By disconnected, I mean pulled the wires off the lugs and taped some red plastic things on the ends of the hots.
> 
> Again, the POCO didn't ask me, tell me or leave a note indicating they were hot. He was too lazy to get into the transformer so......I can call, complain and wait who knows how long to get it disconnected for real or I can suck it up like I usually do. I phoned my business partner, told him I loved him and told him to sue the living sh!t out of the POCO if I died.


I did one last Sat. It was one unit of 12 in 3 quad buildings. The poco was unable to find underground service taps to each unit. I asked to just turn the hole thing off. The can was ready to be removed. They said they would RR the can and just tape off the lines. I was lucky, didnt have any problems. Only had to cut a few wires because of slack. 

My boss helped me because it was the day before easter. He went out and looked at it Fri night and shot them a price Hoping they would wait til Monday. No one even lived in it...odd..but I would do these all day long if I could..


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Voltech said:


> ... The poco was unable to find underground service taps to each unit. ...


Why the hell do they do that? They did that in the 70's in my area too, and it sucks. They open up the padmount to remove your lateral, and they only find a couple taps on the secondary flag. In the 70's, they used to run one lateral to a group of houses, then bury taps someplace, without a vault. That's really chaps my ass. You're in a position of either rescheduling it so they can give proper notice to all the neighbors that might be effected, or work it hot. The choice becomes clear, to me.


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## MisterCMK (Jul 5, 2009)

If I had to move anywhere it certainly would be Arizona. I suppose you guys don't get the revenue generating ground faults due to melting snow and rain. I bet you also don't get the bonus of lightning damage to fire alarms and other systems.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Times the photos were taken, for anyone interested.









8:12 AM​ 










8:31 AM​ 










8:47 AM​











9:35 AM​










​ 9:36 AM


For you doubting the times, they were taken with a Canon PowerShot A590 IS, full auto expose, no flash.​


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

DAmn boy! Super sleuth. 

I hope you didn't see the naked pics of my GF on there too!

What time was this one? It HAD to be close to noon.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Nice job.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

220/221 said:


> DAmn boy! Super sleuth.
> 
> I hope you didn't see the naked pics of my GF on there too!



No, but I can tell you everything technical about the photos.

Auto ISO
Contrast, Saturation & Sharpness : Normal
5.8mm focal length, digital -zoom off
Red Eye Reduction on
Full Auto Easy-Shooting
Image Size : Large (3264 x 2448 Pixels)
Image Quality : Fine
Average Compression Ratio : 3/1
Auto White Balance
Multi-Segment metering
1/318 sec shutter speed, f/4.0 aperture


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

220/221 said:


> ...........
> What time was this one? It had to be close to noon.



12:20 pm


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

220/221 said:


> ........



OK......... how did you do the transition between the sealtight and the pipe in the bottom right of the panel...... going around the telecom demarc?


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

I'll tell you but, get ready for 20 pages of hack/no hack, listed/non listed, legal/illegal :laughing:

I will give you a hint.

Nonmetallic sealtight flex fits/cements snugly into a 3/4" PVC coupling.

I will do this on occaision. The last time was a transition from PVC stubed up for a jacuzzi spa. Mount a JB or just tarnsition smoothly up and into the spa innards.

Although the do make flexible PVC, I haven't seen any listed for electrical.

Of course, I haven't really looked very hard.:jester:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

220/221 said:


> I'll tell you but, get ready for 20 pages of hack/no hack, listed/non listed, legal/illegal :laughing:
> 
> I will give you a hint.
> 
> ...


Might I suggest a heating blanket? Either that, or a KO set. Or a uni-bit.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

There was a large concentric KO (1" to 2")right where I needed to go. There *was* room to drill a hole about 1" to the right. In retrospect it would have cleared the telco box a bit better. Eyeballing it, I _thought_ the hole I used would be fine but one I got it in place it was a little off. 

Maybe the next one will be perfect.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

http://s8.photobucket.com/albums/a8/JohnC1952/Electrical/sells/?action=view&current=7d010575.pbw


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

In my opinion everyone of us knowingly violates the NEC at some point.

That said it baffles me why someone who runs such professionally set up trucks, shop and I imagine business is so _proud_ to brag about choosing to do it wrong. To me this would be like bragging about drinking on the job or rummaging through the customers dresser drawers.

I just don't get it at all and if I was a potential customer reading this stuff I would avoid you. Are you so busy that you can afford to risk loosing work? :blink:

Rock on, to each their own.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

There is a *lot *of ground between proud an ashamed. There is a lot of gray between black and white. I could go on with the metaphors but I would think that you can understand my position.


I'm simply initiating discussion *amongst peers*.

Do you think more of someone who claims to be perfect when in fact you know they are lying? That's what I don't get.


If someone wants to pretend they are always 100% compliant, let them do so. Just don't try to sell *me* that BS.

If a customer happens to find their way to this forum, oh well. If they choose not to use my services, oh well. I'm not a very paranoid person and, in most cases, don't hide behind a screen name.


And, if you can't see the difference between using a self tapper as a ground screw, splicing a ground wire on a pool circuit or taping a #6 wire white and rummaging thru a customers drawers, you need to pay more attention to the world around you.

By the way, murder is different from jaywalking too.


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

TOOL_5150 said:


> Exactly, its not like you filled it with spray foam. The sealant around 3 edges of the panel is better rain protection IMO anyway. I have done it in the past when needed.
> 
> ~Matt


 I caulk around too. never had any trouble for doing it.


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## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

480sparky said:


> Might I suggest a heating blanket? Either that, or a KO set. Or a uni-bit.


 How about a rigid coupling and a couple connectors?


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

220/221 said:


> There is a *lot *of ground between proud an ashamed.


I will agree with you.



> There is a lot of gray between black and white.


There certainly may be some code sections that are gray but the items I see you showing us are generally black and white and clearly NEC violations, most times you even admit that part. 



> I'm simply initiating discussion *amongst peers*.


This forum is not a closed environment like chatting with your buds after work at the bar. Here what you say and do remains and is public.



> Do you think more of someone who claims to be perfect when in fact you know they are lying?


No, I do hate people who lie.

But there is a huge difference between keeping ones mouth shut and lying. I occasionally see people on the forum claim they never make NEC violations, I lose respect for them as IMO they either do not know the NEC or are just plain lying.




> If someone wants to pretend they are always 100% compliant, let them do so. Just don't try to sell *me* that BS.


I have never claimed to be 100% compliant and I am not suggesting you should be, only that I would not bother posting pictures of my violations and try to justify them with a bunch of BS that you know better then 100 years of code making.:no:

There is usually only a few reasons we choose to ignore the NEC, money, time and pure laziness. (FWIW I have used self tappers for EGCs, but I will not try to BS about it, I did it because it was easy, not because I know better than the NFPA)



> If a customer happens to find their way to this forum, oh well. If they choose not to use my services, oh well.


That is stupid and you know it. We all need as many paying customers as we can get.




> I'm not a very paranoid person and, in most cases, don't hide behind a screen name.


You where born 220/221 ..... cool. 

Is it paranoid to look both ways before crossing the street, is it paranoid to make sure the customer can pay before doing the work?




> And, if you can't see the difference between using a self tapper as a ground screw, splicing a ground wire on a pool circuit or taping a #6 wire white and rummaging thru a customers drawers, you need to pay more attention to the world around you.


I know the difference and I agree there are differences but again I just do not get why an otherwise professional tradesman takes such joy in bragging about the violations he leaves behind. 




> By the way, murder is different from jaywalking too.


Very true but I would not post pictures of me doing either. :no:

To each their own and just for the record I have a lot of respect for you, you seem like a great EC and you have that cool 'a doby' even i it has a chicks car out front.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> I will agree with you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
I hope I still have your respect Bob(if I ever had it). I had said I always do things by the NEC but had to go back and say I never knowingly violate the code. I'm sure from lack of knowledge or misunderstanding I have. I agree with all you say. And like someone posted a couple of connectors and a rigid coupling would of made it code compliant just like a ground screw and 4wire outlet would of made the other one comliant.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> I just do not get why an otherwise professional tradesman takes such joy in bragging about the violations he leaves behind


 

I don't know where you get "bragging". If I wanted to brag, I'd post a pic of the chick that drives the Porsche.




> I would not bother posting pictures of my violations and try to justify them with a bunch of BS that you know better then 100 years of code making


There are a _few_ things I know better tnan 100 years of code. I'm not Mr. Code by any means but I'm Mr. Common Sense.




> This forum is not a closed environment like chatting with your buds after work at the bar


I treat it as the same. Someone could overhear you at the bar and cause you grief. Someone could take what I post on the internet and cause grief. Someone could walk up behind me and put a bullet in my head and cause grief.That's life.



> That is stupid and you know it. We all need as many paying customers as we can get.


There is a differnce between stupid and careless. I have my moments but I am generally not a stupid person.



> You where born 220/221 ..... cool.


I've posted my name, email, company name plastered all over my trucks and website countless times.

''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''




> And like someone posted a couple of connectors and a rigid coupling would of made it code compliant


Maybe code compliant but not as safe. The PVC and NM would leave the rigid coupling ungrounded.:notworthy:







> I had said I always do things by the NEC but had to go back and say I never knowingly violate the code


BS :no: 

You didn't know it was illegal to mark #6 wire with white/green tape?
You didn't know that it was illegal to leave the cable switch loop white?
You didn't know that it was illegal to leave tat small section of PVC @ 16"
You didn't know that it was illegal to leave the romex laying on the trusses without staple every 4'

The list of meaningless violations is long, reoccuring and harmless.


'''''''''''''



> How about a rigid coupling and a couple connectors?


1) Some people (Joe T) would argue that that is a listing violation :sleep1: 

2) In this case it would have been a PVC female adapter and a connector. The coupling seemed cleaner and the connection is solid so.......


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

220/221 said:


> I don't know where you get "bragging". If I wanted to brag, I'd post a pic of the chick that drives the Porsche.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It amazes me you think everyone is a LAZY as you.:notworthy:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

I think you did a really fine job with that service change.. people can bitch, moan, and complain about your methods until they try one. :thumbsup:

I have seen many EC around here glue flex PVC into a coupling and the house didn't burn down :no:

The guys who strictly work for pool companies use that method when ever there is a change of direction that a "standard" fitting won't match the angle.

Sure you can heat up PVC and make a pretzel (I know.. 360 degrees max)
but what are the dangers here?? :blink:

Common sense has to come into play, even if _that_ is not listed in the NEC.. IMO


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

220/221 said:


> There are a _few_ things I know better than 100 years of code.


No, I do not believe that at all, at least as far as electrical work.

And if posting pictures and reveling in it is not bragging I am not sure what is. 

Again, to each their own. I notice many people enjoy breaking the rules just so they can say they break the rules, that whole 'bad boy' thing. :jester:


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> It amazes me you think everyone is a LAZY as you.


 
It amazes me that you work so hard at dodging every question posed to you. You flat out lie, then bag on me for being lazy? Look in the mirror dude.





> No, I do not believe that at all, at least as far as electrical work.


 

I know that Taping a #6 wire is no different from taping a #4 wire.

I know that the self tapping screw I used is every bit as effective as a machine thread self tapper.




> And if posting pictures and reveling in it is not bragging I am not sure what is.


So revealing something is bragging? If that's the case, I've seen you brag about things also. Remember the sandwich shop panel change where you were so proud and bragged about....what was it....not reidentifying white conductors as hots?

Revealing something is simply uninhibited conversation. If I limited my conversation to only the upstanding things I have done in my life, I'd run out of things to talk about. I don't pretend. Pretending is, well....pretentious.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> I think you did a really fine job with that service change.. people can bitch, moan, and complain about your methods until they try one. :thumbsup:


Ahh I have done a service change or two, the one in the picture is a cake walk. There was really no reason not to do it to code.




> I have seen many EC around here glue flex PVC into a coupling and the house didn't burn down :no:


I have seen homes wired with zip cord that did not burn down, is that all we are supposed to shoot for? Not buring down?

If we, the professionals do not do the work to code why should the customers hire us, they can hire a handyman to get 'er done.



> The guys who strictly work for pool companies use that method when ever there is a change of direction that a "standard" fitting won't match the angle.


Then it must be OK ........... but why are pool guys doing electrical work? 



> Sure you can heat up PVC and make a pretzel (I know.. 360 degrees max)
> but what are the dangers here?? :blink:


I do not see any danger at all, but I also see no reason not to do it right other than laziness. 



> Common sense has to come into play, even if _that_ is not listed in the NEC.. IMO


Then try to use some common sense, what is the commonsense reason not to do the right thing?

Still I would hire 220/221 I would just watch him.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> what is the commonsense reason not to do the right thing?


 
1) When the wrong thing is is good as or better than the right thing.

I have already listed several examples.


2) When the right thing is wrong.


Stapling unfused, unprotected SE cable on the expose side of a wooden structure. 

This is one of the most dangerous wiring methods I've ever seen and it's NEC compliant. People in the regions defend it because they have seen it and done it all there lives, but it's not a god idea to have unfused, unprotected wires so accessible. Exposed branch circuit cables are bad enough but at least there is a circuit breaker on it.




> Still I would hire 220/221 I would just watch him


You might learn something !!.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

220/221 said:


> It amazes me that you work so hard at dodging every question posed to you. You flat out lie, then bag on me for being lazy? Look in the mirror dude.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
I haven't lied about anything.
I have no idea what questions you are refering to that I have not answered. 
Argue "just as good " all you want. It either meets the NEC or it dosent. Last I checked there was no national 220/221 electric code.But you seem to go by it.:whistling2: I'll continue to do things correctly you continue to do what you do. :thumbup:


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> I have no idea what questions you are refering to that I have not answered.


 
You didn't know it was illegal to mark #6 wire with white/green tape?

You didn't know that it was illegal to leave the cable switch loop white?

You didn't know that it was illegal to leave tat small section of PVC @ 16"

You didn't know that it was illegal to leave the romex laying on the trusses without staple every 4'


Perhaps I sould have used the grammatically correct "Did you know".


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

Hey, post that newspaper article on you remodeling houses...I thought that was pretty cool.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

220/221 said:


> You didn't know it was illegal to mark #6 wire with white/green tape?
> 
> You didn't know that it was illegal to leave the cable switch loop white?
> 
> ...


HUH? What the heck are you talking about?? You got me confused with your other personality I guess. 
I know you cant reidentify a cable smaller than #4
I know you must mark the white a hot color when using it to break the power
I staple romex every other truss
Your right I dont know what your talking about "leave tat pvc at 16"


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

I am asking if you have ever commited one of these atrocities.

Running UG PVC and come across a nasty rock and only give 16" of cover?

Marked a #6 thwn white?


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> Then it must be OK ........... but why are pool guys doing electrical work?
> 
> Still I would hire 220/221 I would just watch him.


There are some EC around here that do wiring for pool companies.. they have trucks set up strictly for pool work.

They can do (2) UG pools a day with the (4) guys and (2) trucks they have.

Bob...I'm talking about PVC pipe going into flex and you bring houses wired with zip cord into the discussion.. you trying to be a TOOL?


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