# Millbank



## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

The only thing dumber then the opps question is Steve "liking" it.

Or is Steve liking his own post?:vs_worry:


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

bostonPedro said:


> Hello people from Millbank.
> I have a a question about the GEC hole that comes on your meter banks
> I have noticed that its listed and approved for entry of the GEC conductor.
> 
> Does this mean that if I can't use the listed and approved GEC hole because of circumstances that I am allowed to drill my own hole if its the same size as the listed and approved hole and that it would be the equivalent of the listed and approved hole or am I only allowed to use the listed and approved hole on your meter banks to enter the GEC conductor?


Are you asking a manufacturer what your allowed to do as per the NEC?


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## bostonPedro (Nov 14, 2017)

eddy current said:


> Are you asking a manufacturer what your allowed to do as per the NEC?


Nope. I am asking if any hole I drill is the equivalent of their listed and approved hole.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

bostonPedro said:


> Nope. I am asking if any hole I drill is the equivalent of their listed and approved hole.


Equivalent in size? What do you expect as an answer from them?

This is funny

"Why yes Mr. Pedro, any hole you drill will be covered under our listing"


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## bostonPedro (Nov 14, 2017)

eddy current said:


> Equivalent in size? What do you expect as an answer from them?
> 
> This is funny


If I knew I wouldn't have asked.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

They know that they lost on the issue of whether a GEC can run thru the factory small hole, so they are grasping for anything they can find to keep the debate alive.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

bostonPedro said:


> If I knew I wouldn't have asked.


Sometimes, wisdom means knowing when to not ask a question.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

bostonPedro said:


> If I knew I wouldn't have asked.


Why would you ask a manufacturer a question that electrician are supposed to know?


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## bostonPedro (Nov 14, 2017)

Its all about the listing to me. Its actually that simple. 
You can't run a GEC into a panel through a romex connector, mc connector, black button, etc etc because they are not listed for that use. I would like to think that there is no disputing that. Now manufacturers come along and they have a hole that is listed and approved which we can use to enter the GEC, I dont dispute that at all. I only want to know if a hole we drill is considered the equivalent of the listed and approved hole.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

bostonPedro said:


> Its all about the listing to me. Its actually that simple.
> You can't run a GEC into a panel through a romex connector, mc connector, black button, etc etc because they are not listed for that use. I would like to think that there is no disputing that. Now manufacturers come along and they have a hole that is listed and approved which we can use to enter the GEC, I dont dispute that at all. I only want to know if a hole we drill is considered the equivalent of the listed and approved hole.


Like I said, everyone else on the forum already knows the answer because we are all electrician here. 

The manufacturer isn't the one to ask, you should be asking an electrician. But since you clearly aren't an electrician, you shouldn't be on this forum at all.

Maybe you should ask Raco or Steel City if you can drill a 1/2" KO in one of their 4"x4"x4" boxes that come without any holes? :vs_laugh::vs_laugh::vs_laugh:


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

bostonPedro said:


> Its all about the listing to me. Its actually that simple.
> You can't run a GEC into a panel through a romex connector, mc connector, black button, etc etc because they are not listed for that use. I would like to think that there is no disputing that. Now manufacturers come along and they have a hole that is listed and approved which we can use to enter the GEC, I dont dispute that at all. I only want to know if a hole we drill is considered the equivalent of the listed and approved hole.


Assuming they could stop laughing long enough to answer your stupid question, the answer would undoubtably be, "NO". They are not going to cover YOUR alteration to the equipment. PERIOD!

Look up the equipment in the white pages of the UL listing book and see if they have listed the equipment to be altered by the end user for drilling a hole in it. 

However, you have my permission to drill as many holes you want in the equipment. If anyone gives you any sh!t, just show them this post and tell them I said it was ok.


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## bostonPedro (Nov 14, 2017)

HackWork said:


> Like I said, everyone else on the forum already knows the answer because we are all electrician here.
> 
> The manufacturer isn't the one to ask, you should be asking an electrician. But since you clearly aren't an electrician, you shouldn't be on this forum at all.
> 
> Maybe you should ask Raco or Steel City if you can drill a 1/2" KO in one of their 4"x4"x4" boxes that come without any holes? :vs_laugh::vs_laugh::vs_laugh:


No need to ask because its actually code that we have to use a "listed and approved" connector of some sort through that hole we just drilled.:vs_cool:


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

flyboy said:


> Look up the equipment in the white pages of the UL listing book and see if they have listed the equipment to be altered by the end user for drilling a hole in it.
> 
> .


Yet to date, nobody has '_looked up the listing in the white book_' to see if the 1/4" knockout provided IS LISTED for gec entry_ either _Flyboy

~CS~


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

This whole issue has taken on new heights of absurdity. I totally understand why Sabrina is questioning whether Steve is actually a real electrician. You see, real electricians use the 1/4" GEC hole provided by the manufacturers every single day without a second thought. It's only fake armchair electricians on internet forums who say it's not permitted.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Chicken I actually like it best when you post under Boston. At least he makes sense.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

bostonPedro said:


> No need to ask because its actually code that we have to use a "listed and approved" connector of some sort through that hole we just drilled.:vs_cool:


Show me that code requirement for a GEC (not for a cable or any other wiring method), thanks...


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Only thing better is if stevie would make up a song about it so everyone could skip over it.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

chicken steve said:


> Yet to date, nobody has '_looked up the listing in the white book_' to see if the 1/4" knockout provided IS LISTED for gec entry_ either _Flyboy
> 
> ~CS~


Milbank engineering team and SquareD is more than good enough for me. 

I haven't looked up ANYTHING in the UL white book to see if it's listed to use it that way, ever. Yet I still perform code compliant installations. 

Have you ever looked up the listing on a 1900 box to see if you can install an MC connector in the 1/2" KO???

You see how pathetic you sound??


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## bostonPedro (Nov 14, 2017)

MTW said:


> This whole issue has taken on new heights of absurdity. I totally understand why Sabrina is questioning whether Steve is actually a real electrician. You see, real electricians use the 1/4" GEC hole provided by the manufacturers every single day without a second thought. It's only fake armchair electricians on internet forums who say it's not permitted.


Of course that hole can be used, its listed and approved for that purpose but thats not the question that was asked to Millbank


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

bostonPedro said:


> Of course that hole can be used, its listed and approved for that purpose but thats not the question that was asked to Millbank


Steve, I don't see why it's relevant. They provide a hole already, we make use of it. No supplemental bonding required either.


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## bostonPedro (Nov 14, 2017)

HackWork said:


> Show me that code requirement for a GEC (not for a cable or any other wiring method), thanks...


First you tell me why the manufacturers have a hole "listed and approved" for the purpose of entering the GEC. 
Actually don't bother. 
I am on pins and needles waiting for Millbank to answer my question and dont want to be distracted.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

bostonPedro said:


> First you tell me why the manufacturers have a hole "listed and approved" for the purpose of entering the GEC.
> Actually don't bother.
> I am on pins and needles waiting for Millbank to answer my question and dont want to be distracted.


So you can't show me the code to backup your statement? 

This is where you admit that your statement was wrong. 

But you will never do that, will you, Steve?

As usual, you just distract from the issue by bringing something else up. In this case it's waiting for Milbank, who isn't the correct person to be asking. I explained this to you already, you have to ask an electrician. Do you know any?


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

bostonPedro said:


> Hello people from Millbank.
> I have a a question about the GEC hole that comes on your meter banks
> I have noticed that its listed and approved for entry of the GEC conductor.
> 
> Does this mean that if I can't use the listed and approved GEC hole because of circumstances that I am allowed to drill my own hole if its the same size as the listed and approved hole and that it would be the equivalent of the listed and approved hole or am I only allowed to use the listed and approved hole on your meter banks to enter the GEC conductor?


Really :001_huh:

Have you ever built a panel with UL listed equipment, and still needed it to be listed/approved ? Go after the listing/approval agencies and/or code makers if you have a beef.

Marissa has been very good to us on this forum.

I didn't agree with you earlier, but I did have respect for you. That's gone now 

Hopefully a Mod closes this thread. Millbank doesn't need this crap.


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

Really ... move it to off topic or controversial, or lock er up ... please :smile:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

emtnut said:


> Really ... move it to off topic or controversial, or lock er up ... please :smile:


Agreed. Marissa has been helpful in serious situations and I don't want fools like this to scare her off due to their trolling.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

This would have never happened at ***. Their mods were tough.
Edit. this cracks me up E J T is a banned word.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

sbrn33 said:


> This would have never happened at ***. Their mods were tough.
> Edit. this cracks me up E J T is a banned word.


Their Admin was absolutely awesome and he kept their database well maintained so the search function always worked properly.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> Their Admin was absolutely awesome and he kept their database well maintained so the search function always worked properly.


I heard that Chicken Steve got permanently banned from E J T. That is pretty awesome.


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## bostonPedro (Nov 14, 2017)

emtnut said:


> Really :001_huh:
> 
> Have you ever built a panel with UL listed equipment, and still needed it to be listed/approved ? Go after the listing/approval agencies and/or code makers if you have a beef.
> 
> ...




No one is giving crap to Millbank. 
A simple question was asked and I am anticipating a reply.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

chicken steve said:


> Yet to date, nobody has '_looked up the listing in the white book_' to see if the 1/4" knockout provided IS LISTED for gec entry_ either _Flyboy
> 
> ~CS~


Not true- I did look and there is nothing in there about it... that doesn't mean anything, tho.


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

bostonPedro said:


> No one is giving crap to Millbank.
> A simple question was asked and I am anticipating a reply.


You know better


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

chicken steve said:


> Yet to date, nobody has '_looked up the listing in the white book_' to see if the 1/4" knockout provided IS LISTED for gec entry_ either _Flyboy
> 
> ~CS~


Chicken steve .,, I did look up on Whitebook and it did not mention too much at all but they did mention about GEC bonding bushing but that era ( 08 edition ) say not fully investaged so IMO it kinda a open end detail on that.

If anyone can get latter verson just let us know I try to but it say something about have to pay to download on PDF format.,, I know I try to get into recent edition but could not able do it for a moment.


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## bostonPedro (Nov 14, 2017)

emtnut said:


> You know better


 
I see the question as an honest question 
I see the possibility of allowing a hole to be listed and approved as dangerous. 
Not dangerous as you are going to die sort of way 
BUT 
Dangerous as in if a simple hole is approved and listed it leaves open the possibility that a hole I may happen to drill could be deemed a violation because it is NOT approved and listed. 
Thus the question and thus my willingness to have others take jabs at me because I happen to see something that concerns me


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

bostonPedro said:


> I see the question as an honest question
> I see the possibility of allowing a hole to be listed and approved as dangerous.
> Not dangerous as you are going to die sort of way
> BUT
> ...


So, if I get approval for a power/gen disconnect to equipment with relays, it leaves it open that some electrician will modify it at a later date by adding a relay, when all he really did was add a relay to a box, which is what I did to begin with ... why would that change the approval ?

If you want to drill a hole in a box, and sell it to the general public, you need to have the whole panel listed/approved. I think Millbank would be happy not to have to go thru this process.

I highly doubt that the 'hole' was listed. But their meter socket was approved as 'equipment', and any 'functions' in the panel included.

I think you know this. If you want argue, start a thread in off topic or controversial.

My last response in the Millbank forum.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

MTW said:


> I heard that Chicken Steve got permanently banned from E J T. That is pretty awesome.


That place was awesome. They had mostly real electricians there.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

frenchelectrican said:


> Chicken steve .,, I did look up on Whitebook and it did not mention too much at all but they did mention about GEC bonding bushing but that era ( *08 edition* ) say not fully investaged so IMO it kinda a open end detail on that.
> 
> If anyone can get latter verson just let us know I try to but it say something about have to pay to download on PDF format.,, I know I try to get into recent edition but could not able do it for a moment.



One _more _time then.....



> *250.8* Connection of Grounding and Bonding Equipment.
> (A) Permitted Methods. Equipment grounding conductors,
> *grounding electrode conductors,* and bonding jumpers shall be
> connected by one or more of the following means:
> ...


GEC's were introduced to 250.8 in the *'11* NEC cycle. 


'Connection' , (_my interpretation _) would also include the _entry_ of the GEC


This would include the entry of a GEC into _anything_ a GEC might be run into


See 110.28 for the potential _'list'_


So, if you're looking for a _listing_ in the UL white book, you'd need an addition _past_ *'11*

If you're soliciting manufacturers, they would need to be up to date on this as well

You're welcome
:vs_cool:
~CS~


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

chicken steve said:


> 'Connection' , (_my interpretation _) would also include the _entry_ of the GEC
> 
> 
> This would include the entry of a GEC into _anything_ a GEC might be run into


This is where you are wrong and have been wrong this entire time. The GEC connects to the enclosure on the lug provided for it in most meter sockets or on the bus bar of the panel, it does not connect to a knockout.


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

MTW said:


> This is where you are wrong and have been wrong this entire time. The GEC connects to the enclosure on the lug provided for it in most meter sockets or on the bus bar of the panel, it does not connect to a knockout.


Steve, 

What part of this are you not getting? 

Don't you have enough common sense to know that a GEC or bonding conductor that is passing through the hole of an enclosure will be terminated on a grounding/bonding bar or lug and is by definition bonded/grounded to the very enclosure the hole is in?

Your interpretation means nothing to anyone; unless of course you're an inspector inspecting one of my jobs and sites a code violation for not using a listed connector where the conductor enters the enclosure. 

In which case, I would use my IAEI membership to call you out on it in front of the whole society of IAEI members. :vs_laugh:


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

flyboy said:


> > Steve,
> >
> > What part of this are you not getting?
> 
> ...


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

emtnut said:


> Hopefully a Mod closes this thread. Millbank doesn't need this crap.




2nd that

~CS~


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

chicken steve said:


> One _more _time then.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 And that is where you are wrong. The GEC entering a panel is NOT a connection.

This has been discussed, and everyone agrees that your interpretation is wrong and you are just grasping for any way to avoid admitting you are wrong about the GEC entering a panel.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I am going to do what Steve does from now on.

For example:

(1) Bathroom Area. GFCI protection is required for all 15A
and 20A, 125V receptacles in the bathroom area of a dwelling
unit. 

OK, well no one takes baths anymore, so if they take showers it is a showerroom or a toiletroom, which there is no code requiring GFCI's in one of those rooms.

GFCI's are not required. 

That's literally what he is doing. The above is not even an exaggeration, it's the same level of stupidity that Steve has used when he listed 8 code articles that he says restrict the GEC from passing thru the hole made for the GEC to pass thru.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

chicken steve said:


> Yes, professional organizations are all a _big joke_ to you, yet you would probably not be running a professional biz w/o them


Did you hear that Flyboy? You wouldn't be in business right now without the IAEI. Because a group where worthless inspectors get together and talk about made up code rules is so valuable to the business man. 

You can't make this stuff up. :lol::lol:


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## Milbank_Marissa (Jul 14, 2016)

Well that was whirlwind! I just got back in the office today. It looks to me like everything was resolved. Please let me know if anyone has any other questions- but yeah, I would only recommend drilling new holes if you're using meter sockets for an art project. (If so, send pics! )
But of course, if you ever think we're missing a knockout or there's an idea for a new style of product, those suggestions are always welcome!


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Marissa, did you find out why Rick said that you can’t use the small hole for the GEC?


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## Milbank_Marissa (Jul 14, 2016)

HackWork said:


> Marissa, did you find out why Rick said that you can’t use the small hole for the GEC?


I did not hear back yet, but I passed along the note from engineering. I'll try to get it all settled this week.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Thank you Marissa

I'll assume your engineering dept if familiar with UL's white book, and can respond in accordance with it

~CS~


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