# German motor



## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

Someone please tell me what I've got here. I can apply the kW rating to my supply voltage (480) but the nameplate amperage seems high for 355 volts. I've got it figured for 222 amps at 480 but everything about this nameplate seems crazy to me. 











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## AK_sparky (Aug 13, 2013)

222A / 0.81PF = 274

Assume 95% (based on nameplate)

274 / .95 = 288A (at 480V)


Using nameplate values (355V):
185000 / (355 * 1.73 * 0.81) = 371.9
95% efficiency: 371.9 / .95 = 391A, pretty close to nameplate


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

AK_sparky said:


> 222A / 0.81PF = 274
> 
> Assume 95% (based on nameplate)
> 
> ...



So the 81 on the nameplate is the pf? What about the 83? 

Edit: just googled power factor symbol. Not sure I've seen it before but I won't forget it now. 


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## AK_sparky (Aug 13, 2013)

See the "Hz" above the 83? That is the symbol for Hertz, a unit to measure frequency. You see, when you get to level 1 tradeschool you will learn about AC and DC electricity. This motor uses AC....yada yada yada :laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## AK_sparky (Aug 13, 2013)

Can you run this thing at 480?


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

AK_sparky said:


> See the "Hz" above the 83? That is the symbol for Hertz, a unit to measure frequency. You see, when you get to level 1 tradeschool you will learn about AC and DC electricity. This motor uses AC....yada yada yada :laughing::laughing::laughing:



Yeah yeah hertz I've heard of it I think. Never 83 though. And yes it's going to run at 480, as far as I know it's a like for like replacement so it better work. 


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## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

AK_sparky said:


> Can you run this thing at 480?


You can get a 480V VFD and program the voltage to be 355V when the frequency is 83.8 Hz , that's what this motor was designed for. Then once you have it set up for that, you can make it do whatever you like. But this motor was DESIGNED to be run from an inverter of some sort, likely as what's called a "spindle drive" because of the relatively high speed. 

It is designed for 4.32V/Hz (355/83.8), but 480V 60Hz is 8 V/Hz, almost 2x what the motor is designed for so if you connect it directly to 480V it will saturate and burn up. If you connect it to 240V 60Hz (4.0V/Hz) it is closer and in fact may be close enough (-7.5%), but you would need to contact the motor mfr for the voltage tolerance specifications on it. NEMA motor design tolerance is +-10%, but that is not a NEMA motor...

If it were me, I would use a 480V VFD and program it for what that motor is expecting to see.


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## pete87 (Oct 22, 2012)

JRaef ... How would this work on the old German 360/220 50hz 3ph system ... If I stated it right .


Also , what dose the .... 1/min ... over ... 2500...mean on the name plate ?



Pete


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## AK_sparky (Aug 13, 2013)

1/min is RPM. 

# of turns / minute


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## AK_sparky (Aug 13, 2013)

JRaef said:


> It is designed for 4.32V/Hz (355/83.8)


4.24V, not 4.32V 



pete87 said:


> How would this work on the old German 360/220 50hz 3ph system ... If I stated it right.



4.24V/Hz * 50Hz = 211V
Sort of close to 220V, but I also think Germany was at 230V, so even less close.

Baumuller does a lot of control/servo stuff. I am guessing that this motor was either built for a very specific purpose and application, or designed to be used with some"fancy, black voodo, proprietary" controller...but that's just a guess.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

It's also factory labeled "Resolver" ... which could be tied back into a trick VFD... or even a SCADA display.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resolver_(electrical)

This level of control is to be expected in such items as paper mills, web presses, calendaring machines ( veneer strippers, e.g. ) etc.

Such complex systems can't suffer speed drift between rotational elements.

The implication is that this puppy simply HAS to be driven by a VFD -- and a pretty high end one at that. ( Tight feed-back control, very robust, state of the art )

Good luck.


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

It's one of 4 for a specific operation that is moving from another facility to ours. The drives and other components are shipping Wednesday. This motor showed up before anything else and had me doing a double take. Thanks for the replies. 


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## pete87 (Oct 22, 2012)

AK_sparky said:


> 4.24V, not 4.32V
> 
> 
> 
> ...



AK sparky ... I have only seen one time a 3 ph 50hz 360v/220 German Motor used in a Book Binding Equipment machines set up . Equipment was used in South America , Argentina ? ... .3ph 360v / 220v 50hz ... 31 years ago , shipped to US , New Jersey , and used on a 440v 3ph 60hz system . Tapped down to 380v .

Ran Great .

The Old 360 / 220 50hz system .


Pete


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## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

My bad on the math error, fat fingered the calculator on my iPad this morning. So 4.24V/Hz is even closer to 240V 60Hz, -6%. Still, I would check with the mfr before just powering it up without the VFD, or, like I said, just do what it wants. If you are married, you should know better...

But yes, when you see an oddball V/Hz like this 355V at 83.8Hz, that motor was MADE to be operated from an inverter drive of some sort, and yes, the resolver would be a feedback mechanism for a high end Vector drive or servo drive (although that is too big to be a "servo" drive). If you are planning on re-purposing that motor for something else that doesn't need variable speed or accuracy, then go with 240V 60Hz, but that's a BIG motor to run at 240V; you're looking at a Size 6 motor starter for that beast and if you only have 480V available, you will need at least a 500kVA transformer to feed it! A 480V VFD might be cheaper in the long run anyway.

Side note FWIW, IEC voltage would have been 380V, not 360. The new "harmonized" voltage is 400V 50Hz, which is a compromise between the 380V used in Germany and the 415V used in the UK and some other countries. So what mfrs are "supposed" to do now is design to 400V 50Hz so that it still falls within tolerances at both 380V and 415V systems.


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## Jhellwig (Jun 18, 2014)

On some vfd rated motors it gives you this information on the name plate for a few frequencys to set your v/hz curve not just one. There is more than likley a spec sheet that has it all somewhere. 

German motors just have confusing nameplates no matter what they are.


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## AK_sparky (Aug 13, 2013)

Jhellwig said:


> German motors just have confusing nameplates no matter what they are.


How do you figure? What was confusing there?


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

AK_sparky said:


> How do you figure? What was confusing there?



The voltage and frequency had me confused. I learned a lot in this thread and not afraid to admit it. I'm sure when I received the rest of the equipment and got briefed on the project things would've cleared up but when this thing showed up all by itself with no paperwork I was absolutely confused. 


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## AK_sparky (Aug 13, 2013)

ponyboy said:


> The voltage and frequency had me confused. I learned a lot in this thread and not afraid to admit it. I'm sure when I received the rest of the equipment and got briefed on the project things would've cleared up but when this thing showed up all by itself with no paperwork I was absolutely confused.


My question was geared at Jhellwig because he said all German motor nameplates are confusing.

But, ya, that motor you have there on it's own is odd without context.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

This puppy cost a fortune, was custom built, and probably has a custom built VFD en route at this very moment.

It's a common practice for such exotic motors/ equipment for factory tech (master electricians ) visits to be a part of the 'package price.' (And very lengthy these visits may be.)

The entire experience will be highly educational -- and entertaining.

When possible, when appropriate, up-load some photos.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

ponyboy said:


> Someone please tell me what I've got here. I can apply the kW rating to my supply voltage (480) but the nameplate amperage seems high for 355 volts. I've got it figured for 222 amps at 480 but everything about this nameplate seems crazy to me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Why worry...just don't use it. If you are tempted just run it at 480 ...possibly "bump" it and take current readings.


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## Jabberwoky (Sep 2, 2012)

JRaef said:


> (although that is too big to be a "servo" drive)


I'm not sure if you have come across the new servo presses. We have a couple that run 3 ~750HP servo motors. One set is Siemens water cooled servos and I think the other set is Mitsubishi air cooled. I might be able to get some nameplate photos tomorrow if I'm not too busy. They are certainly the biggest servos I have ever seen.


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