# Ground rods



## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

How long are the rods?


:laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

Celtic said:


> How long are the rods?
> 
> 
> :laughing: :laughing:


 He is using those rods that he cut off a couple of weeks ago.:laughing::laughing:


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Yea, I figured what the hell?


No seriously, I have to drive the rods on the other side of the house from the panel because of a concrete walkway and I don't want to have to run another wire from the panel in the garage to the basement and out to the rods. Can I simply "tap" the copper water pipe to the ground rods?


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

I dont think the code specifies irreversable. But I know you are allowed to go from ground rods to water pipe. There is a picture of it in 05 handbook. (dont have 08 handbook yet) Exhibit 250.29.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

Just make the run continuous and it will be just fine.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> Can I jump from H2O meter bond to ground rod connection without using irreversible crimp?
> 
> Code reference?


Yes. Your GEC only has to be continuous to one electrode. You can make as many jumpers off of that as you want after that.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

william1978 said:


> Just make the run continuous and it will be just fine.



Why? Not necessary.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

captkirk said:


> There is a picture of it in 05 handbook..... Exhibit 250.29.












...here's another:


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

captkirk said:


> I dont think the code specifies irreversable. But I know you are allowed to go from ground rods to water pipe. There is a picture of it in 05 handbook. (dont have 08 handbook yet) Exhibit 250.29.


That's what I was looking for :thumbsup:


I ran a #6 copper to the H20 and now I'm going to run another #6 from the same area out to the (2) ground rods. 

Awesome baseball game going tonight too! :thumbup:


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

You know.... this is one of those things that if you do it ....most inspectors will knock it down saying rods have to be homerun to the panel...
Oh and another one is if you run the ground rods to the meter pan it will 95 percent of the time get knocked down too. Even though its permitted by 250.24. Its another one of those "not in my town" rules.....


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

Peter D said:


> Why? Not necessary.


 Never said it was necessary.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

william1978 said:


> Never said it was necessary.



No, but you did say make it continuous. That's usually a pain in the rear. Do what's easiest - make jumpers off the main GEC.


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

I can think of many situation where jumping off the water pipe would have made more sense and saved me some wire too. But they always seems to skitts out when I do it......Next time I do it im gonna print the picture from the handbook and just tape it to the pipe..


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

Peter D said:


> No, but you did say make it continuous. That's usually a pain in the rear. Do what's easiest - make jumpers off the main GEC.


 Yes, I agree. It sounded like the op was going to have some issues out of someone if he didn't provide a code ref. thats the only reason I said to run it continuous.


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

The only thing i can find about the ground rod connector is that it needs to be listed for direct burial if its underground....


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Peter D said:


> No, but you did say make it continuous. That's usually a pain in the rear. Do what's easiest - make jumpers off the main GEC.


I did a steel building with (6) 200 amp services and I wanted to use building steel for GEC

Building was 300 ft long and I wanted to go from panel to "I" beam, but got shot down 

Something about GEC has to be run with other conductors


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> I did a steel building with (6) 200 amp services and I wanted to use building steel for GEC
> 
> Building was 300 ft long and I wanted to go from panel to "I" beam, but got shot down
> 
> Something about GEC has to be run with other conductors



The GEC does not have to be run with other conductors. The EGC does, but not the GEC. Somebody didn't know what they were talking about. :no:


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

Black4Truck said:


> I did a steel building with (6) 200 amp services and I wanted to use building steel for GEC
> 
> Building was 300 ft long and I wanted to go from panel to "I" beam, but got shot down
> 
> Something about GEC has to be run with other conductors


 You can't use the building steel as you GEC. I don't know what the inspector was talking about when he said it had to be run with other conductors. Was he talking about equipment grounds?


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Peter D said:


> The GEC does not have to be run with other conductors. The EGC does, but not the GEC. Somebody didn't know what they were talking about. :no:


Imagine that? :laughing:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

william1978 said:


> You can't use the building steel as you GEC. I don't know what the inspector was talking about when he said it had to be run with other conductors. Was he talking about equipment grounds?


No.. the water main was plastic.. why I wanted to use building steel

But, it turned out first 25' was copper inside the building, then changed to plastic


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

So did you use it as a GEC?


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*Gec*

As a fault current is increasing in a circuit the "the magnetic field" that is encompassing the "HOT" conductor actually increases the ampacity of the EGC so that it will trip the breaker quicker. Therefore it is always better to run the EGC as close to the circuit conductors as possible.

RIVETER


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> So did you use it as a GEC?


Yes.. I used the water pipe

I will post some pics and start a new thread in the next few days .. did the job last year and I still "don't get it" :laughing:


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Black4Truck said:


> Yes.. I used the water pipe
> 
> I will post some pics and start a new thread in the next few days .. did the job last year and I still "don't get it" :laughing:


Well... if you "don't get it" you should be an inspector. :001_huh:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> Well... if you "don't get it" you should be an inspector. :001_huh:


:laughing: :thumbup:


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*Service grounding*

I have not looked at the code book for a while so I may be wrong.Let me know what you think. The picture of the grounding system showed the "GROUNDING" conductor tied to the neutral buss, then to the water pipe system and then to the system grounding electrode. As I remember, the grounding conductor connected to the panel must be connected to the metal water pipe system, if the system has one, and to the system ground rod. (Both are electrodes and should be independent of each other.) The picture depicted the system grounding conductor depending solely on the integrity of the water pipe system; If for some reason the metal water system is replaced with rubber, or plastic in the future, which does happen, the integrity of the system grounding is compromised.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*GEC or not*

I tried to edit my post but could not, so I will retract part of what I said in an earlier post. I mispoke; I meant to say that the equipment ground, not the GEC, should be run close to the circuit conductors to facilitate the overload device.

RIVETER (Egg on face)


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## TheRick (Apr 13, 2008)

RIVETER said:


> If for some reason the metal water system is replaced with rubber, or plastic in the future, which does happen, the integrity of the system grounding is compromised.


Which is why the connection is required to be in the first 5' of the pipe entering the dwelling, that portion is less likely to be replaced with a different piping system.


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## TheRick (Apr 13, 2008)

Magnettica said:


> Well... if you "don't get it" you should be an inspector. :001_huh:





Black4Truck said:


> :laughing: :thumbup:


That's not very nice!


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Were just joking around there are plenty of good EI's.


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## TheRick (Apr 13, 2008)

Magnettica said:


> Were just joking around there are plenty of good EI's.


 
I know......I actually agree with you for the most part, I have seen some really good inspectors in my time, and I have seen some *really *bad ones as well. 

I try and stay in that first group! :thumbup:


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## EJPHI (May 7, 2008)

*grounding*










This is a good diagram. However, I would like it more if it considered the effect of a lightning stike on the service entrance conductors. I believe it would be better to connect the neutral bus or meter directly to a close ground rod to form the lowest inductance path. The way it is shown here, the lightning current will travel through the whole above-ground water pipe on its way to earth. This will cause extreme potential differences throughout the building. Not a good situation.

EJPHI


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

EJPHI said:


> This is a good diagram. However, I would like it more if it considered the effect of a lightning stike on the service entrance conductors. I believe it would be better to connect the neutral bus or meter directly to a close ground rod to form the lowest inductance path. The way it is shown here, the lightning current will travel through the whole above-ground water pipe on its way to earth. This will cause extreme potential differences throughout the building. Not a good situation.
> 
> EJPHI


 For some reason everyone seems to feel that it needs to be next to the main breaker. And im refering to the ground rods.... By code you allowed to go at the meter or even the service drop. ...Good luck trying to pass that way though...


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

EJPHI said:


> This is a good diagram. However, I would like it more if it considered the effect of a lightning stike on the service entrance conductors. I believe it would be better to connect the neutral bus or meter directly to a close ground rod to form the lowest inductance path. The way it is shown here, the lightning current will travel through the whole above-ground water pipe on its way to earth. This will cause extreme potential differences throughout the building. Not a good situation.
> 
> EJPHI


I agree with your assessment. But in certain situations the ground rods go wherever they can be driven. Code says what the Code says.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

EJPHI said:


> The way it is shown here, the lightning current will travel through the whole above-ground water pipe on its way to earth. This will cause extreme potential differences throughout the building. Not a good situation.
> 
> EJPHI



You do realize that many times the steel skeleton of a building is used as the path for the lighting strike ...and what is attached to the skeleton.....everything ~ plumbing, electric, sprinklers, etc.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*Grounding electrodes*

It does not matter if you have 100 steel beams anchored five feet in reinforced concrete,you must bond them and still place a supplemental ground rod at the service.

RIVETER


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

RIVETER said:


> It does not matter if you have 100 steel beams anchored five feet in reinforced concrete,you must bond them and still place a supplemental ground rod at the service.
> 
> RIVETER


Where is that requirement in 250.52(A)(2)?

The only electrode that requires a supplemental electrode is a metal underground water pipe, and it does not have to be a ground rod - 250.53(D)


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*Supplemental ground rod*

Prove what I have said is wrong and I will defend it.
RIVETER


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> Prove what I have said is wrong and I will defend it.


He just did.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Wide open here; tell me what the purpose of a ground rod at an electrical service is.

RIVETER
{devil's advocate}


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*Gec*

You are correct.


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## TheRick (Apr 13, 2008)

RIVETER said:


> Wide open here; tell me what the purpose of a ground rod at an electrical service is.
> 
> RIVETER
> {devil's advocate}


 
*250.4 General Requirements for Grounding and Bonding.*

*(A) Grounded Systems.*

*(1) Electrical System Grounding.* Electrical systems that are grounded shall be connected to earth in a manner that will limit the voltage imposed by lightning, line surges, or unintentional contact with higher-voltage lines and that will stabilize the voltage to earth during normal operation.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*Supplemental ground rod*

So, are you saying the word "ONLY" is in there?

RIVETER


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

RIVETER said:


> So, are you saying the word "ONLY" is in there?
> 
> RIVETER



Since you seem to be the _only_ one of that side of the fence ~ tell us:

What is the purpose of a ground rod at an electrical service ?


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## TheRick (Apr 13, 2008)

RIVETER said:


> So, are you saying the word "ONLY" is in there?
> 
> RIVETER


I think I am missing your point. :001_huh:


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