# Heat trace



## Clintmiljavac (Aug 18, 2011)

Did a job for a GC on a clients home. We heat traced all gutters, this was a big historic house he is now saying that the down spouts need it also that wasnt in the bid or ever discussed until now when the payment is due in full, my question to you guys do you ever heat trace down spouts? If so why? Once it melts gutters and all it's a down run to the ground why would you do that


----------



## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

If it melts slowly on the roof the small trickle of water can freeze and completely block the down spout in some cases.


----------



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

I agree that downspout trace is important. But that really doesn't matter if you were not being paid to do it.

-John


----------



## Auselect (Dec 2, 2011)

My understanding is you need to turn the ice into water and get it away from the building, if you only do the gutters, that would leave the downspouts to freeze hence defeating the purpose of turning the ice into water in the first place, it's still going to be on the roof....I'm sure icicles can form in the spouts.

Have you looked at the manufacturers install manual, I would do what they recommend, if they state only the roof then your golden, if they state the spouts then maybe you should of read the instructions first.


----------



## TimChaput69 (Nov 14, 2011)

Around here if you don't trace the downspouts also you end up with a worse problem that if you didn't install heat trace at all. The heat trace will melt the ice but if there is no place for the water to go it just backs up and fills the gutters then winds up getting under roofing. The heat trace will run constantly because the water will just thaw and freeze in a vicious circle. Also depends on the weather too, if it doesn't stay too cold for long periods you'll probably be fine but you can never plan on mother nature to do what you want!!


----------



## 347sparky (May 14, 2012)

One commercial account we work with has open faced downspouts and they definately needed the heat tape for the winter. Looks like an extra for you.


----------



## 007 (May 4, 2009)

Sounds like you may have missed a speck. The GC will look at it from the stand point you should have known the downspouts were a part of the project. If you did not get it in writing you are going to have a problem collecting and it sounds like he has the money leverage. I would be surprised if it isn't in the manufacturers speck that you need to do the downspouts.


----------



## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

Up state NY where I live yes for sure....water can freeze in seconds when it is below zero and the wind is blowing ....in Missouri I think you could have the same problem...check the job spec...you dont want ice dams on a roof...:no:


----------



## 007 (May 4, 2009)

RGH said:


> Up state NY where I live yes for sure....water can freeze in seconds when it is below zero and the wind is blowing ....in Missouri I think you could have the same problem...check the job spec...you dont want ice dams on a roof...:no:


Syracuse three feet of snow was considered a light snowfall:laughing:


----------



## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

007 said:


> Syracuse three feet of snow was considered a light snowfall:laughing:


ah yes you tug hill guys...ah..wheres dah mail box:thumbup:


----------



## JHFWIC (Mar 22, 2012)

To me its all part of the system, down spouts are part of it and they need heat trace in them. I might be a d**k but I say thats on you.


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Clintmiljavac said:


> Did a job for a GC on a clients home. We heat traced all gutters, this was a big historic house he is now saying that the down spouts need it also that wasnt in the bid or ever discussed until now when the payment is due in full, my question to you guys do you ever heat trace down spouts? If so why? Once it melts gutters and all it's a down run to the ground why would you do that


first off this sounds like a contractual misunderstanding re' gutters _vs._ gutters and downspouts

2ndly, this is a concern in Missouri? some rather intense global wierding .....?

~CS~


----------



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

JHFWIC said:


> To me its all part of the system, down spouts are part of it and they need heat trace in them. I might be a d**k but I say thats on you.


Damn right. I cant even IMAGINE doing just the gutters and not the downspouts.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Clintmiljavac said:


> my question to you guys do you ever heat trace down spouts? If so why?


Every time, just doing the gutters is worthless, the downspouts will freeze up solid.


----------



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

I don't know how complex this bid was. If it was just one line that said "Heat trace gutters for X amount" then maybe you should eat it and chalk it up to lesson learned.

If there was a much more specific scope that broke down all the parts of the work, I really would tend to put it on the person who forgot to write in downspouts. 

-John


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Big John said:


> If there was a much more specific scope that broke down all the parts of the work, I really would tend to put it on the person who forgot to write in downspouts.


I hear ya but it seems as the professional the EC would be obligated to ask the question. IMO it is standard practice to do the down spouts so I would be asking the question if the spec was unclear.


----------



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Yeah, it's a tough position to be in because the only defense the OP would seem to have is _"Yes, we're competent to install it, but we still didn't know enough to ask about the downspouts."_

Usually on a butch like this we end up compromising and eating 50% of the cost and the EC ponies up the other 50%, which makes sure nobody is happy.

-John


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Big John said:


> Usually on a butch like this we end up compromising and eating 50% of the cost and the EC ponies up the other 50%, which makes sure nobody is happy.


Been there, not fun in our case it was a three-way at 33% (Us, GC and another trade) for what IMO was another subs lack of professionalism. Lucky it was pretty short money, it was all about slapping some wrists.


----------



## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

I don't understand this thread at all. When/why do you do a heat trace on a gutter. Clean the leaves out after fall and be done with em.


----------



## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

nolabama said:


> I don't understand this thread at all. When/why do you do a heat trace on a gutter. Clean the leaves out after fall and be done with em.


The trace is not just on the gutter, but also normally on the lower part of the roof. Ice dams form and can force water up under the shingles and into the building as the snow and ice freeze and thaw. Keeping the lower part of the roof, the gutters and downspouts free of ice will prevent the ice dams.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

nolabama said:


> I don't understand this thread at all. When/why do you do a heat trace on a gutter. Clean the leaves out after fall and be done with em.


Of course you don't, you don't have snow and ice conditions do you?


----------



## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

BBQ said:


> Of course you don't, you don't have snow and ice conditions do you?


No. What is this ice you speak of. Is it the same kind that goes in whiskey?


----------



## jimmy21 (Mar 31, 2012)

I never would have thought about this work being done. Never even heard of using heat trace on the gutters, but it makes sense


----------



## 007 (May 4, 2009)

jimmy21 said:


> I never would have thought about this work being done. Never even heard of using heat trace on the gutters, but it makes sense


Combined with snow meeting mats on the roof


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

007 said:


> Combined with snow meeting mats on the roof


What where?


----------



## Amish Electrician (Jan 2, 2010)

Ever try reading the instructions?

The Raychem instructions are pretty clear about running a 'tail' down the spout.

You made a mistake. man up and fix it. No charge, no whining.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Amish Electrician said:


> Ever try reading the instructions?


:laughing: What a silly idea.


----------



## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

BBQ said:


> :laughing: What a silly idea.


 When my oldest son was in second or third grade, the teacher told us that he often starts doing his work without reading the instructions. My answer of "so do I" did not get a very favorable reaction from the teacher.


----------



## moshei (May 24, 2012)

I enjoy the read on this thread 
those are very funny . well, energizing each heat trace circuit is necessary to make sure no short circuit or ground faults exist and RTDs are functioning properly.!

Cheers !


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

moshei said:


> I enjoy the read on this thread
> those are very funny . well, energizing each heat trace circuit is necessary to make sure no short circuit or ground faults exist and RTDs are functioning properly.!
> 
> Cheers !


No RTDs to check.


----------



## 007 (May 4, 2009)

BBQ said:


> What where?


 you never heard of ZMESH ?


----------



## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

007 said:


> Combined with snow meeting mats on the roof


So, the snow meets the mats on the roof or does the mats meet the snow on the roof?:001_huh::001_huh:


----------



## 007 (May 4, 2009)

Chris1971 said:


> So, the snow meets the mats on the roof or does the mats meet the snow on the roof?:001_huh::001_huh:


Something like that only totally different


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

007 said:


> you never heard of ZMESH ?


Nope and I live in an area with snow and ice. 

Here we just use heat trace in a. Zig zag. 

Here is an example. http://www.heatersplus.com/roof.html


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

I'm absolutely amazed at the stuff I learn just by reading the instructions. :laughing:


----------



## 007 (May 4, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Nope and I live in an area with snow and ice.
> 
> Here we just use heat trace in a. Zig zag.
> 
> Here is an example. http://www.heatersplus.com/roof.html


 this is the product
http://www.zmesh.com/roofdeicing.html


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Amish Electrician said:


> Ever try reading the instructions?
> 
> The Raychem instructions are pretty clear about running a 'tail' down the spout.
> 
> You made a mistake. man up and fix it. No charge, no whining.


Not sure about Raychem but some manufacturers don't even recommend tails. They don't want T-splices in the gutter so they recommend a continuous loop with spacers to keep the cable from touching itself in the downspout. There isn't a danger with self reg cable touching itself but it will create a cold spot.

Regardless, I agree with you. Proper design includes the downspouts. Anybody installing trace should know that.


----------

