# Freaking mess.



## Steve W (Dec 18, 2008)

i love seeing pictures of your work that looks awesome


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

220/221 said:


> On a standard service change/upgrade, I generally put the new service right over the old one and manage to get the cables all landed in the new panel.
> 
> POCO decided that this service had to be relocated, about 6-8 feet to the right. They were supposed to run a new drop from the pole and get rid of the midspan connection.
> 
> ...


 How well do those lables hold up..?


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

I was wondering about all of that thhn...They made you move it because the drop was over too much of the roof or what?


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## mikeg_05 (Jan 1, 2009)

looks good man:thumbsup:


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

Looks good.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

Yeah what a pain. Pipe looks real good though. :thumbsup: 
What'd the HO have to say about all the pipe?


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Looks good for what you were up against there. Next coat of paint that house gets and those conduits will be a lot less objectionable.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> They made you move it because the drop was over too much of the roof or what?


1. They don't like the mid span drops because of accessibility and support.
2. The drop went thru a tree which is in the process of being removed.












> How well do those lables hold up..?


I'll let you know :laughing: I usually just use a sharpie.



> What'd the HO have to say about all the pipe?


He's prety laid back, cool guy. Some people would have a fit.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

Why do you scatter your breakers all over the panel?

~Matt


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## AWKrueger (Aug 4, 2008)

I love the way neat conduit work looks on a wall. Good work.:thumbsup:


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

TOOL_5150 said:


> Why do you scatter your breakers all over the panel?
> 
> ~Matt


I think he just pulls the wire and wherever they land , that is where the breaker is going.


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## BCSparkyGirl (Aug 20, 2009)

your labels are crooked.......and they coulda been trimmed a little neater......:jester:


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> Why do you scatter your breakers all over the panel?





> I think he just pulls the wire and wherever they land , that is where the breaker is going


There is *always* a method to my madness, whatever the job is. Each case is different. Sometimes I leave space at the top for futire, sometimes at the bottom. Sometimes I use only one side. A lot of times it depends on the existing cable length.










In this case, the far right conduit is the range circuit and the wire was just long enough to hit the bottom and it was toward the right side.

The bottom four red #12's are 15A circuits going into one conduit with a spare 20A black.

The six black 12's are isolated from the main for breathing room.

The dryer circuit above those comes from the far left/bottom.

I always try to isolate the AC breaker as we tend to have problems with them getting hot here in the 150 degree summers.

I left 2 poles open at the bottom for future solar backfeed and the surge went to the obvious location.

I also encountered several two wire cables so I lined up the neutrals with the corresponding breaker so if the HO wants to make it right, I can easily install GFCI breakers. I SHOULD have done this on installation but, 1) the estimator didn't prep the HO for additional charges and 2) I only had a couple GFCI breakers with me.




> your labels are crooked.......and they coulda been trimmed a little neater......


I will use a lazer level next time. And by lazer level, I mean Sharpie.


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## BCSparkyGirl (Aug 20, 2009)

220/221 said:


> I will use a lazer level next time. And by lazer level, I mean Sharpie.


:laughing::thumbsup:


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Very nice.


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

What if you increase the size of the wire and breaker. Would that help aleviate the heat buildup..? Im sure there is a max breaker listing on the ac.


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

Nice work. I would love to do a few of those. Its nice when its all piped in. I miss doing a little pipe work.


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

I like that Air Conditioning breaker idea. I do not like the same color wire thing, however. Pipe work looks good.


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

That mid-line attachment is what is hack. Bad Poco, bad!


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

BuzzKill said:


> That mid-line attachment is what is hack. Bad Poco, bad!


I dunno. They do that all the time around here. You can't put a pole in front of every house. Many old neighborhoods are tightly packed, and the lines are still overhead. That pretty much forces you to do mid span taps.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> What if you increase the size of the wire and breaker. Would that help aleviate the heat buildup..? Im sure there is a max breaker listing on the ac


 Hell, I don't know. All I know is that itt's a random but common failure. I went to copper bused panels a few years ago and try to give it some space if there is any. We'll see.



> I do not like the same color wire thing, however


I used black, red, white, green and blue?

There's only so many colors available, ya know?





> That pretty much forces you to do mid span taps.


I once saw a POCO guy use a ladder on a midspan tap replacement. It looked very awkward and dangerou. The splicing was being done right in his face on a 20 something foot ladder.


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

220/221 said:


> I used black, red, white, green and blue?
> 
> There's only so many colors available, ya know?


You used Red for A and B and Blue for A and B - It is something I do not like. It works for you and is not and will not be a code violation.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> You used Red for A and B and Blue for A and B - It is something I do not like. It works for you and is not and will not be a code violation.


Yeah, I do that a lot. It's for my own benefit. If I do A B = red black, I have to identify and tape the pairs together and it doesn't seem worth the effort for zero return. I didn't use any MWBC's so phasing wasn't applicable. If conduit fill was an issue and I needed to share neutrals i would have gone black/red on the 120V circuits.

If I were to pull multiple single phase 240V circuits in the same conduit, I would for example use 2 blacks, 2 reds and 2 blues. It just makes the wiring more identifiable and less likely to cross something up.

The blues were existing. My 6's would have been black. I pulled the 10's off a reel in the truck so it made sense (to me) to take 30' of red instead of 15' black and 15' red.

That reminds me. No one brought up conduit fill/derating. For the record, I've never been called on it. Never even heard of it until the internets :jester: I always just went by the conduit fill chart.

I did run 2 conduits, something I would not have done just a few years ago. 

I forgot how I split them up. I just eyeballed 50/50. Probably 14 12's in one and 8 12's, 2 8's and a 10 in the other.


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## AWKrueger (Aug 4, 2008)

220/221 said:


> There is *always* a method to my madness, whatever the job is. Each case is different. Sometimes I leave space at the top for futire, sometimes at the bottom. Sometimes I use only one side. A lot of times it depends on the existing cable length.


 
I thought you were supposed to balance the load in the panel? Is this true? 
I understand that the bussing alternates in the panel.. I'm just wondering if you take balancing into consideration or you install breakers where you can get them.

I'm an apprentice so I actually asking, not trying to bust chops....


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

Derating, yes indeed, an internet only thing for me also. However the last job I completed the engineer wrote it in the way he drew the prints and spec'd the job. 


Krueger - that panel is balanced - If you look at the bussbar you will see a separation between the two phases. You do not have to work top to bottom to get that effect. I had a mechanic of 15+years call me out for that a few years ago and I just shook my head in disgust.


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## I_get_shocked (Apr 6, 2009)

AWKrueger said:


> I thought you were supposed to balance the load in the panel? Is this true?
> I understand that the bussing alternates in the panel.. I'm just wondering if you take balancing into consideration or you install breakers where you can get them.
> 
> I'm an apprentice so I actually asking, not trying to bust chops....



That panel looks pretty well balanced from over here. Like you said its alternating busses


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## AWKrueger (Aug 4, 2008)

I_get_shocked said:


> That panel looks pretty well balanced from over here. Like you said its alternating busses


 
I guess I meant in general when doing a panel swap, not necessarily this job. Would a guy typically make sure everythings balanced when all is said and done or would he land breakers where he can get them?


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

It's impossible to truly balance a residential panel anyhow. The loads are absolutely unpredictable.


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

What MD said X 2 - you can forget balancing a load in a resi panel - you can make them look balanced to the untrained eye by putting the two pole breakers side by side first and then all your 20's and then your 15's 

but it is just for looks


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## AWKrueger (Aug 4, 2008)

Makes sense. I appreciate the clarification.


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## sparky105 (Sep 29, 2009)

Wouldn't it be a good practice to balance the continuous loads?

eg. electric heat and cooling 
than pool and spa circulation pumps or sumps 
and than freezers, refrigerators and stoves 

and than fill the lighting and rec. loads which would be the unpredictible amp draws.


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

How would you unbalance 240 loads in a 240 volt panel??


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## sparky105 (Sep 29, 2009)

nolabama said:


> How would you unbalance 240 loads in a 240 volt panel??


oops blond moment . I spend way to much time in Industrial settings. I really only think 4 wire systems lol.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> I thought you were supposed to balance the load in the panel? Is this true?


About the only thing you could do wrong would be to use only every other space :jester:

I suppose I could take an extra step, turn everthing on and check amperage on each leg. That of course will change as things get turned on/off so....no.


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