# Extending two wire branch circuits



## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

Since we hashed out GFCI protection on two wire circuits I figured it was time to discuss extending them.

The consensus seems to be that you can't extend them. But I can't find a code reference for that. Can anyone point me in the right direction?


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

Check out 406.3 and 250.130c


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

nitro71 said:


> Since we hashed out GFCI protection on two wire circuits I figured it was time to discuss extending them.
> 
> The consensus seems to be that you can't extend them. But I can't find a code reference for that. Can anyone point me in the right direction?


You probably won't find any, you as an electrician must know that today's standard requires a EGC with any cable. Conduits different story. So your answer is no.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> You probably won't find any, you as an electrician must know that today's standard requires a EGC with any cable. Conduits different story. So your answer is no.


Must know :blink: 

250.132(C) is the last nail in that coffin.


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## doubleoh7 (Dec 5, 2009)

I just did yesterday. I used 12-2 and hooked up the grounding conductor all the way back to the J box where the original cable ends. In the proccess I fixed 2 lights, 1 switch, and one GFCI receptacle mounted to paneling with NO BOXES. I also eliminated a buried open splice.


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

doubleoh7 said:


> I just did yesterday. I used 12-3 and hooked up the grounding conductor all the way back to the J box where the original cable ends. In the proccess I fixed 2 lights, 1 switch, and one GFCI receptacle mounted to paneling with NO BOXES. I also eliminated a buried open splice.


So where do you get your EGC from if there was none to begin with.


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## doubleoh7 (Dec 5, 2009)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> So where do you get your EGC from if there was none to begin with.


 

The EGC starts at the first J box where the original 12/2 without ground ends.


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

nitro71 said:


> Must know :blink:
> 
> 250.132(C) is the last nail in that coffin.


This section does not pertain to your situation the operative word is cable armor in your instance you don't have cable armor from what your explaining is 2 wire romex.


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## doubleoh7 (Dec 5, 2009)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> This section does not pertain to your situation the operative word is cable armor in your instance you don't have cable armor from what your explaining is 2 wire romex.


 
NM cable


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> This section does not pertain to your situation the operative word is cable armor in your instance you don't have cable armor from what your explaining is 2 wire romex.


250.132(c) 2011 code? I don't have that section only 250.132


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

doubleoh7 said:


> The EGC starts at the first J box where the original 12/2 without ground ends.


I understand that part. But, you have NM cable with no ground. Where did you pick up you GEC from the only way you can achieve this is if you go back to the panel, or if you hit the GEC or metal water pipe.


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## doubleoh7 (Dec 5, 2009)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> I understand that part. But, you have NM cable with no ground. Where did you pick up you GEC from the only way you can achieve this is if you go back to the panel, or if you hit the GEC or metal water pipe.


 
The EGC starts at the first J box where my work starts. There is one GFCI receptacle, I labeled it GFCI protected no equipment ground. There is not egc going back to the panel. I guess I have to spell some things out.


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> So where do you get your EGC from if there was none to begin with.


You Stated you connected the EGC in the original j box where the 12/2 ended. So with in that j box someone ran the EGC to that junction box from the panel or FROM THE GEC, or METAL UNDERGROUND WATER PIPE?????


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## doubleoh7 (Dec 5, 2009)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> You Stated you connected the EGC in the original j box where the 12/2 ended. So with in that j box someone ran the EGC to that junction box from the panel or FROM THE GEC, or METAL UNDERGROUND WATER PIPE?????


 
No I did not. Also there was no "original j box" , just a buried open splice. This is dildos. There is no EGC that goes anywhere.


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

doubleoh7 said:


> No I did not. Also there was no "original j box" , just a buried open splice. This is dildos. There is no EGC that goes anywhere.


 Step:1 run wire to first outlet box/junction box
Step:2 oh know no EGC
Step:3 run ( 1 ) wire to GEC
Step:4 connect EGC to GEC from new wire
Step:5 branch circuit extension is now grounded
the GFCI is not your EGC it a means of replacement from 2 prong rec to 3 prong rec with probably little protection
If steps 1-5 were completed then you installtion is compliant
Just trying to get a better understanding of what exactlly you did..


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## doubleoh7 (Dec 5, 2009)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> Step:1 run wire to first outlet box/junction box
> Step:2 oh know no EGC
> Step:3 run ( 1 ) wire to GEC
> Step:4 connect EGC to GEC from new wire
> ...


 

I give up. I'm going to go dig some holes outside for a while. The circuit wasn't grounded when I started and it wasn't grounded when I finished.


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

doubleoh7 said:


> I give up. I'm going to go dig some holes outside for a while. The circuit wasn't grounded when I started and it wasn't grounded when I finished.


Okay! LOL! So you didnt run any new wires?


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

IMO, you can continue a non grounding 2 wire circuit if you connect the egc in any method of 250.130(C). I also think that, in general, if I can install an egc based on 250.130(C) then I probably can just get back to the panel and do a better job.

You cannot extend a 2 wire circuit if you do not have any means presented in 250.130(C).


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> IMO, you can continue a non grounding 2 wire circuit if you connect the egc in any method of 250.130(C). I also think that, in general, if I can install an egc based on 250.130(C) then I probably can just get back to the panel and do a better job.
> 
> You cannot extend a 2 wire circuit if you do not have any means presented in 250.130(C).


That's what I'm insisting. You are right, but , it doesn't seem that his installation is complaint.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

doubleoh7 said:


> The EGC starts at the first J box where my work starts. There is one GFCI receptacle, I labeled it GFCI protected no equipment ground. There is not egc going back to the panel. I guess I have to spell some things out.


Were the receptacles that you installed down stream of the "two wire" type... of the type with no egc availability?


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## doubleoh7 (Dec 5, 2009)

I did extend a two wire NM circuit yesterday. All of the devices on the circuit are GFCI protected. Did I bend/ break the rules????? I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. I eliminated three dangerous issues. The work was in a bathroom on a slab with no attic space overhead. There was no grounding when I started and none when I finished. On top of that, there is now a J box behind a mirror that is held in place by two screws. It replaced an open splice. Anyone want to mention 314.29?


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## doubleoh7 (Dec 5, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> Were the receptacles that you installed down stream of the "two wire" type... of the type with no egc availability?


One GFCI receptacle feeds a switch from the load side that controls a light fixture over the mirror. Before I started the switch and defective receptacle were mounted to wood paneling with NO boxes. I pulled the covers off and there was just a small hole for each cut in the paneling and the switch and receptacle mounted directly to the paneling. I see that kind of crap all too frequnetly.


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

doubleoh7 said:


> I did extend a two wire NM circuit yesterday. All of the devices on the circuit are GFCI protected. Did I bend/ break the rules????? I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. I eliminated three dangerous issues. The work was in a bathroom on a slab with no attic space overhead. There was no grounding when I started and none when I finished. On top of that, there is now a J box behind a mirror that is held in place by two screws. It replaced an open splice. Anyone want to mention 314.29?


So, you have just admitted that your installation was not code compliant. That's what I was implying. You cannot extend a 2 wire circuit unless you properly ground it according to 250.130 (c) and you have not achieved that from your installation. You can actually kill someone if somethings are not ground properly!


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

doubleoh7 said:


> I did extend a two wire NM circuit yesterday. All of the devices on the circuit are GFCI protected. Did I bend/ break the rules????? I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. I eliminated three dangerous issues. The work was in a bathroom on a slab with no attic space overhead. There was no grounding when I started and none when I finished. On top of that, there is now a J box behind a mirror that is held in place by two screws. It replaced an open splice. Anyone want to mention 314.29?


Okay so you did one thing right by abiding by section 314.29. Big deal you still screwed up!


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## doubleoh7 (Dec 5, 2009)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> So, you have just admitted that your installation was not code compliant. That's what I was implying. You cannot extend a 2 wire circuit unless you properly ground it according to 250.130 (c) and you have not achieved that from your installation. You can actually kill someone if somethings are not ground properly!


 



Oooooo, I'm scared! A gfci receptacle and a switch and light fed from GFCI receptacle over a mirror are not grounded! SOmetimes you do what you have to do. Some of you guys need to get your heads out of the NEC and your a55es and use some common sense once in a while. Again, this is a bathroom on a sconcrete slab with no access overhead. In addition the bathroom is paneled and has a tile ceiling that would be impossible to match.. On top of that, the panel at the other end of the house is in a room on a slab with no attic access.


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

doubleoh7 said:


> Oooooo, I'm scared! A gfci receptacle and a switch and light fed from GFCI receptacle over a mirror are not grounded! SOmetimes you do what you have to do. Some of you guys need to get your heads out of the NEC and your a55es and use some common sense once in a while. Again, this is a bathroom on a sconcrete slab with no access overhead. In addition the bathroom is paneled and has a tile ceiling that would be impossible to match.. On top of that, the panel at the other end of the house is in a room on a slab with no attic access.


Did you know that if the water pipe in the bathroom was a copper line, you could've atleast installed a water clamp and bonded everything. I would've been happier to see that.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

If everyone did it the chances of someone getting hurt just increases. I agree sometimes we make do with what we have but I don't think I would have chosen to do that.


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## doubleoh7 (Dec 5, 2009)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> Okay so you did one thing right by abiding by section 314.29. Big deal you still screwed up!


 

No, I most certainly did not screw up. I knew exactly what I was doing. Since I was there, should I have ripped out all of the paneling and drywall in the home to make sure there were not any other open, buried splices? In old, inaccessable work, you have to make compromises. I was there to replace a defective GFCI receptacle and a non functioning light switch. The further I went, the bigger the can of worms got. Apparantly, you have not done much service work. The service drop to the house is also less than ten feet above grade. I suppose I would have to correct that too?


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> Did you know that if the water pipe in the bathroom was a copper line, you could've atleast installed a water clamp and bonded everything. I would've been happier to see that.


It may have been better but still not compliant.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> So, you have just admitted that your installation was not code compliant. That's what I was implying. You cannot extend a 2 wire circuit unless you properly ground it according to 250.130 (c) and you have not achieved that from your installation. You can actually kill someone if somethings are not ground properly!


Kill someone? I doubt that. It really is no different than installing a GFCI upstream on a two wire circuit and installing three wire receptacles. Except you extended the circuit. Is the original wiring un-safe? Not particularly. Was compliant at one time. His install is safe with a GFCI protecting the circuit.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

doubleoh7 said:


> The further I went, the bigger the can of worms got. Apparantly, you have not done much service work. The service drop to the house is also less than ten feet above grade. I suppose I would have to correct that too?


LOL! Isn't that the truth. I always feel good telling the customer that they should maintain operating smoke alarms. I don't mention that it's because of their wiring.. :whistling2:


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## doubleoh7 (Dec 5, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> If everyone did it the chances of someone getting hurt just increases. I agree sometimes we make do with what we have but I don't think I would have chosen to do that.


 
What would YOU have done? Again, there was no access above because there was no attic over the bathroom and it was on a concrete slab. Just because I go to a home to take care of a nonfunctioning GFCI recaptacle and switch, does not mean that I am going to gut the house and bring everything up to compliance with the 2011 NEC.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

doubleoh7 said:


> What would YOU have done? Again, there was no access above because there was no attic over the bathroom and it was on a concrete slab. Just because I go to a home to take care of a nonfunctioning GFCI recaptacle and switch, does not mean that I am going to gut the house and bring everything up to compliance with the 2011 NEC.


Did you run new wire? Without knowing the situation I don't know. I could run pvc outside if the bathroom were an outside wall or if I couldn't do that then I would probably say I can't do it. Repair is one thing installing more wire is another.


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## doubleoh7 (Dec 5, 2009)

nitro71 said:


> Kill someone? I doubt that. It really is no different than installing a GFCI upstream on a two wire circuit and installing three wire receptacles. Except you extended the circuit. Is the original wiring un-safe? Not particularly. Was compliant at one time. His install is safe with a GFCI protecting the circuit.


 
Actually, I did not even extend the circuit. There was an open splice behind the bathroom mirror in a cavity where a medicine cabinet once resided. From that open splice a GfCI receptacle and a switch were fed. The switch controled the light above the mirror. I really only replaced cable because it was too short at all of the openings.No new devices were added. Everything past the open, buried splice was hackorama. Someone step up to the plate and bust my balls because I installed a j box behind a mirror where there was an open splice laying against a dry, 50 year old stud.

Don't forget that most of us grew up in homes with no branch circuit grounding and no GFCI receptacles. 


Again, anyone who does service work in older homes knows that compromises and common sense have to be implemented.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Given the circumstances you did the best you could. I probably would have done the same.


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

doubleoh7 said:


> No, I most certainly did not screw up. I knew exactly what I was doing. Since I was there, should I have ripped out all of the paneling and drywall in the home to make sure there were not any other open, buried splices? In old, inaccessable work, you have to make compromises. I was there to replace a defective GFCI receptacle and a non functioning light switch. The further I went, the bigger the can of worms got. Apparantly, you have not done much service work. The service drop to the house is also less than ten feet above grade. I suppose I would have to correct that too?


Remember one thing, if anything were to happen in that home you would be held accountable because you were the last person in that house. Our responsibility is to correct things that are wrong " not everything" only where the work is like in your situation the bathroom. "once we add new wiring to a existing wiring it is considered new. Which would require some sort of inspection or filing whatever is applicable to your town.


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## doubleoh7 (Dec 5, 2009)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> Remember one thing, if anything were to happen in that home you would be held accountable because you were the last person in that house. Our responsibility is to correct things that are wrong " not everything" only where the work is like in your situation the bathroom. "once we add new wiring to a existing wiring it is considered new. Which would require some sort of inspection or filing whatever is applicable to your town.


 

Absolute nonsense!


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## doubleoh7 (Dec 5, 2009)

Another thing I forgot to mention is that the bathroom is on a 15 amp circuit that also feed half of the adjoining bedroom. C'mon, someone tell me that I should have corrected that as well.


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

250.130(C) does not exist in Massachusetts.

Deleted from the code.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

leland said:


> 250.130(C) does not exist in Massachusetts.
> 
> Deleted from the code.


Thats right so what does it meen???


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

HARRY304E said:


> Thats right so what does it meen???


2008 code it maybe the same section you guys are referring to in 2011 also known as section 232


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

HARRY304E said:


> Thats right so what does it meen???



It means we can't use the code section that was removed.


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