# Breaker positions in a residential panel



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

arni19 said:


> Hey guys up in canada we have a code that requires us to leave 2 full breaker spaces empty on a new residential service for future over current devices, down in the states do you have a similiar code?


Nope we can load them up..:thumbup:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Makes no sense. When the next schmuck comes along and needs those two extra spaces, is he supposed to add two more spaces to the panel in order to maintain the "two extra spaces" rule?

Or does he tell the customer, "Sorry, I can't use those last two spaces because I'm supposed to leave them."?


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## arni19 (Nov 20, 2009)

The reason i ask is we have the rule for future... I remember reading in the code handbook that the rules intention or meaning is the future it talks about is for a house with unfinished basements... Regardless the reason i ask is that a house i finished 2 years ago was getting a hot tub installed by a different electrical contractor and there was no " space" left in the panel according to him.. So the homeowner called the inspector and he wrote me a defect for the rule above... The worst part is that i installed a 30/60 cct cutler panel. And used 30 full size breakers to fill it so i was under the assumption that my panel is half full, since it is! what a pita, i wouldnt be so pisssed off about something so petty if the other ec didnt tell me i was in the wrong... Put 2 tandems in problem solved.. Ps rule is bull since the next guy could come 2 days after i finished and fill the last 2 spots then it is full, and for all i know someone very well could of in the last 2 years.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Am I reading this right, you got cited for a code violation on a job you completed 2 years ago? How the F does that work? :blink: Do you guys not have final inspections or what?

-John


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

What about a 30/40 that is full, but no tandems?


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Not a code here, but IMO there probably should be something like that in there. I cannot tell you how many "new houses" that have 150 amp services with 20 circuit panels that are already "twinned" and maxed-out so the EC could save a few bucks.


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## randas (Dec 14, 2008)

480sparky said:


> Makes no sense. When the next schmuck comes along and needs those two extra spaces, is he supposed to add two more spaces to the panel in order to maintain the "two extra spaces" rule?
> 
> Or does he tell the customer, "Sorry, I can't use those last two spaces because I'm supposed to leave them."?


The rule just covers new installs.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

randas said:


> The rule just covers new installs.


So I'm installing two new circuits..........


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## arni19 (Nov 20, 2009)

Big John said:


> Am I reading this right, you got cited for a code violation on a job you completed 2 years ago? How the F does that work? :blink: Do you guys not have final inspections or what?
> 
> -John


In sask, anything under 400 amps is not a mandatory inspection its a spot check type deal, if the inspector checks your work and it fails he will go back on all your work, And check for the same mistakes. You never know when you will be inspected and so the work stays up to par.


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## Sparky J (May 17, 2011)

arni19 said:


> In sask, anything under 400 amps is not a mandatory inspection its a spot check type deal, if the inspector checks your work and it fails he will go back on all your work, And check for the same mistakes. You never know when you will be inspected and so the work stays up to par.


Thats Canada ay. I have to say thats stupid though.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

That's a heck of a system, knowing that at any time you could potentially be hit with a violation for any work you'd done in your entire career? 

The electrical work up there must be damn near immaculate.

-John


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## arni19 (Nov 20, 2009)

Ya in a big way its stupid, agreed. The thing is when i was in Alberta and they had rough in and final inspections they were sort of a joke, the inspector would glance around if everything looked fine they were happy and gone. In Sask, nothing is mandatory under 400amps, but they do come out and periodically check your work, and when they do the inspector comes and checks absolutely everything, opens panels, measures distances tests the plugs for proper wiring. To me other then getting called on something 2 years down the road... which is rare (1st time) the way they inspect here is more thoro and since you don't know when he will show it makes you more honest as well.


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## arni19 (Nov 20, 2009)

Big John said:


> That's a heck of a system, knowing that at any time you could potentially be hit with a violation for any work you'd done in your entire career?
> 
> The electrical work up there must be damn near immaculate.
> 
> -John


They give you 1 month from date of defect, if its not fixed they pull your contractors license.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Magnettica said:


> Not a code here, but IMO there probably should be something like that in there. I cannot tell you how many "new houses" that have 150 amp services with 20 circuit panels that are already "twinned" and maxed-out so the EC could save a few bucks.


It's a pain in the rear and annoying but not a safety issue. Usually.


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## stuiec (Sep 25, 2010)

Holy shiz-nat! I had no idea you guys had that kind of system over there! You are right about the inspections here in AB being a bit of a joke though. We had an inspector come in, mistake us for some other guys he knew, yak yak yak, here's your sticker.  Barely looked at the place.


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## randas (Dec 14, 2008)

480sparky said:


> So I'm installing two new circuits..........


New install as in when you install the panel it has to have x many free spaces. After that stuff er full

AKA if you pull a permit for a new service/service change you have to leave free spaces. But if you pull a permit to say, add a hot tub you can use whatever space is available


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

free spaces in the panel are just places that give a home owner an opportunity to burn the place down with diy wiring


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

wildleg said:


> free spaces in the panel are just places that give a home owner an opportunity to burn the place down with diy wiring



Pffft. DIYers are gonna stuff any tandem that will fit, or else double- and triple-up wires under a breaker.


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## B W E (May 1, 2011)

480sparky said:


> Makes no sense. When the next schmuck comes along and needs those two extra spaces, is he supposed to add two more spaces to the panel in order to maintain the "two extra spaces" rule?
> 
> Or does he tell the customer, "Sorry, I can't use those last two spaces because I'm supposed to leave them."?


Read again. The "next schmuck" isn't installing a new service. The two breaker spaces were left for him. He very clearly said "when installing a new service."


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

B W E said:


> Read again. The "next schmuck" isn't installing a new service. The two breaker spaces were left for him. He very clearly said "when installing a new service."


Try again.



randas said:


> The rule just covers new installs.


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## stuiec (Sep 25, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Try again.


 
the rule is intended for the installation of a new service


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## B W E (May 1, 2011)

480sparky said:


> Try again.


Are you serious dude? Read the original post, you're making yourself look worse than normal.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

B W E said:


> Are you serious dude? Read the original post, you're making yourself look worse than normal.


Nah, he always looks this bad. :whistling2:


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

I leave the top spaces open for larger 2 pole breakers, and group all 2 poles, 20's and 15s. Usually leaving a space or two in those areas as well.


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## arni19 (Nov 20, 2009)

randas said:


> New install as in when you install the panel it has to have x many free spaces. After that stuff er full
> 
> AKA if you pull a permit for a new service/service change you have to leave free spaces. But if you pull a permit to say, add a hot tub you can use whatever space is available


Correct.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

I always try to leave it like this


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## B W E (May 1, 2011)

Shockdoc said:


> I always try to leave it like this


Looks nice, 'cept for the white on the breaker.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

B W E said:


> Looks nice, 'cept for the white on the breaker.


I keep forgetting that code change for re indentifying whites on a branch circuit.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Shockdoc said:


> I keep forgetting that code change for re indentifying whites on a branch circuit.


 I think Mass has an amendment that allows it. :thumbsup: 

I've always thought it was a really stupid rule: If someone is confused by a white wire landed on a switch or 2P breaker, they have no business doing electrical work to start with.

-John


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## B W E (May 1, 2011)

Big John said:


> I think Mass has an amendment that allows it. :thumbsup:
> 
> I've always thought it was a really stupid rule: If someone is confused by a white wire landed on a switch or 2P breaker, they have no business doing electrical work to start with.
> 
> -John


It could help during a panel change. Then again, if they saw a white wire on a breaker and didn't flag it for reconnect, they still have no business doin electrical.


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## arni19 (Nov 20, 2009)

Big John said:


> I think Mass has an amendment that allows it. :thumbsup:
> 
> I've always thought it was a really stupid rule: If someone is confused by a white wire landed on a switch or 2P breaker, they have no business doing electrical work to start with.
> 
> -John


Could not agree more.


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## arni19 (Nov 20, 2009)

In canada you donnot have to phase the white in a cable for switching purposes as long as when you get back to the lighting outlet white is neutral and black is your switched hot. In the states you have to color code your whites in switch boxes if they arent neutrals?


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## Sparky J (May 17, 2011)

Yep but the new code will probably get rid of that in switch boxes we will have to put a neutral in for specialty switches. In panels I usually mark my whites on breakers with black tape. A while back we had an inspector who wanted you to color the whites with a black sharpie because the tape could fall off and cause confusion what a jackwagon.


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