# Receptacle Placement



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

John, go with your gut, my experience is that when this question is asked it goes 100s of posts with no firm answer.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Big John said:


> A kitchen island also serves as one wall of a living room space. The small-appliance receptacles for the island are under the edge of the counter-top on the "living room" side of the island.
> 
> Do you still need additional receptacles on a different circuit (probably at floor height) to satisfy the general-use receptacle requirements for the living room?
> 
> -John


 
The SABC cannot serve the living room


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

Edit.... Yes another receptacle down at normal height on a different circuit would likely be the most code-compliant solution.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

BBQ said:


> John, go with your gut, my experience is that when this question is asked it goes 100s of posts with no firm answer.


 
I really don't see why this wouldn't be firm enough:


*(2) No Other Outlets.​*​​​​The two or more small-appliance
branch circuits specified in 210.52(B)(1) shall have no
other outlets.​
_Exception No. 1: A receptacle installed solely for the electrical
supply to and support of an electric clock in any of
the rooms specified in 210.52(B)(1).
Exception No. 2: Receptacles installed to provide power
for supplemental equipment and lighting on gas-fired​ranges, ovens, or counter-mounted cooking units
_


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

InPhase277 said:


> Unless it is a wall, there are no receptacle requirements. An opening between a kitchen and living room is not required to have them.


 

*(2) Wall Space.​*​​​​As used in this section, a wall space shall
include the following:
(1) Any space 600 mm (2 ft) or more in width (including
space measured around corners) and unbroken along the
floor line by doorways, fireplaces, and similar openings
(2) The space occupied by fixed panels in exterior walls,
excluding sliding panels
(3) The space afforded by fixed room dividers such as freestanding​
bar-type counters or railings


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> I really don't see why this wouldn't be firm enough



See post four, that will be the argument.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

mcclary's electrical said:


> *(2) Wall Space.​*​​​​As used in this section, a wall space shall
> include the following:
> (1) Any space 600 mm (2 ft) or more in width (including
> space measured around corners) and unbroken along the
> ...


I misunderstood the question. For some reason I read it as there was an opening between rooms and the bar faced it...


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Alright. My gut is that I need the floor-height receptacles. The reason I asked is because anyone but an inspector is gonna look at these two parallel rows of receptacles and ask if the electrician was on drugs. 

It's gonna look retaaahded (I'm practicing my Boston-ese.)

-John


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

Big John said:


> Alright. My gut is that I need the floor-height receptacles. The reason I asked is because anyone but an inspector is gonna look at these two parallel rows of receptacles and ask if the electrician was on drugs.
> 
> It's gonna look retaaahded (I'm practicing my Boston-ese.)
> 
> -John


But when day trow a wicked pissah, they'll have plenty of receptacles tah use.:thumbsup:


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Big John said:


> Alright. My gut is that I need the floor-height receptacles. The reason I asked is because anyone but an inspector is gonna look at these two parallel rows of receptacles and ask if the electrician was on drugs.
> 
> It's gonna look retaaahded (I'm practicing my Boston-ese.)
> 
> -John


 
If the receptacle is served from a GFI, use a duplex, break both tabs on grounded and ungrounded and feed 1/2 with a 20 and half with a 15. Meets both requirements.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Why would you be required to provide a SABC on the non kitchen side?


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

BBQ said:


> Why would you be required to provide a SABC on the non kitchen side?


It's the only place to put them to serve the island. The kitchen side of the island is cabinets, and the drawers come right up to the lip of the counter. 

I am thinking about GFCI'd wire-mold under the lip, though. How would you glue to granite?

-John


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

Big John said:


> It's the only place to put them to serve the island. The kitchen side of the island is cabinets, and the drawers come right up to the lip of the counter.
> 
> I am thinking about GFCI'd wire-mold under the lip, though. How would you glue to granite?
> 
> -John


I used Loctite epoxy to glue under cabinet lights to a stone reception counter in some doctors' offices. I used my angle grinder to sand the paint from the lights and rough the stone up.

Believe me, it holds tight. The asked us if we could relocate one. I had to beat the light to pieces, then chisel and grind the rest off:laughing:


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Big John said:


> It's the only place to put them to serve the island. The kitchen side of the island is cabinets, and the drawers come right up to the lip of the counter.
> 
> I am thinking about GFCI'd wire-mold under the lip, though. How would you glue to granite?
> 
> -John


 
And keep in mind if the overhang is more than 6" the receptacle that is under it cannot serve the countertop.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

Big John said:


> It's the only place to put them to serve the island. The kitchen side of the island is cabinets, and the drawers come right up to the lip of the counter.
> 
> I am thinking about GFCI'd wire-mold under the lip, though. How would you glue to granite?
> 
> -John


bad design. I suggest a filler strip in between base cabinets specifically for the purpose of the receptacle, before I get in that stupid jam.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

wildleg said:


> Bad design...


 Why?

-John


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

mcclary's electrical said:


> And keep in mind if the overhang is more than 6" the receptacle that is under it cannot serve the countertop.


Does this unit butt up to a living rm. wall? Or a column with openings on both ends?
If to a wall can the LR rec be placed on the wall? as above,if the top is 6" over on 3 sides just 1 rec for the LR is needed.

My situation was easy,they turned the living rm into a eating area,so the end rec covered it.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

leland said:


> Does this unit butt up to a living rm. wall? Or a column with openings on both ends?


 It's actually a peninsula that butts up to to a wall, but I failed geography.


> ...If to a wall can the LR rec be placed on the wall?


 It's almost 15 feet long, the living-room side counts as usable wall space; I've gotta have a couple of general use receptacles on it.


> ...As above,if the top is 6" over on 3 sides just 1 rec for the LR is needed...


 I still need to provide the SABC receptacles somewhere. I could put one on either end and be compliant, but that's not a user-friendly design for that much counter space.

-John


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## yankeewired (Jul 3, 2008)

It seems from your description that the space in question is where counter height stools would be placed to face into the kitchen . If this is the case it is part of the kitchen . You would not install another receptacle from another circuit . However if it is not a seating area and just a room divider then it is part of the living room and required to have a general use receptacle placed on it . The height can be as high or low as you decide if memory serves me, up to 5-1/2 feet from floor can be included in general use receptacle layout and it is probably 42" or less to the countertop.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

Big John said:


> I could put one on either end and be compliant, but that's not a user-friendly design for that much counter space.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Big John said:


> It's actually a peninsula that butts up to to a wall, but I failed geography. It's almost 15 feet long, the living-room side counts as *usable *wall space; I've gotta have a couple of general use receptacles on it. I still need to provide the SABC receptacles somewhere. I could put one on either end and be compliant, but that's not a user-friendly design for that much counter space.
> 
> -John



Why does this word always get used in receptacle placement arguments? It means nothing. 

I don't have a clear picture of the setup in question. :confused1:


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

electricmanscott said:


> Why does this word always get used in receptacle placement arguments? It means nothing.


 Stairs have walls. I won't be putting a table lamp on the stairs. That is non-"usable" wall space.


> ...I don't have a clear picture of the setup in question.


_Living Room

___R_________R_____
Peninsula Counter Top | 

Kitchen_

The "R"s are the locations of small-appliance receptacles. It does not appear those will qualify as living-room receptacles. Meaning I would need two more receptacles on that peninsula.

-John


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

And I just saw this addition in 2011:


> 210.52(A)(4)* Countertop Receptacles.* Receptacles installed for countertop surfaces as specified in 210.52(C) shall not be considered as the receptacles required by 210.52(A).


 That pretty much removes all doubt.

-John


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Big John said:


> Stairs have walls. I won't be putting a table lamp on the stairs. That is non-"usable" wall space.
> 
> _Living Room_
> 
> ...


 
I would split them in half so they can serve both, rather than using two rows of receptacles.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> I would split them in half so they can serve both, rather than using two rows of receptacles.


 Good thinking. That's definitely the easiest solution. I'll pass that along with the wiremold idea and see which one they chose. 

-John


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Big John said:


> Stairs have walls. I won't be putting a table lamp on the stairs. That is non-"usable" wall space.


Just saying usable or not has no bearing on receptacle placement requirements.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

Big john are you side jobbin'? :001_huh:


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

erics37 said:


> Big john are you side jobbin'? :001_huh:


 Only because I suck at telling people "no."

-John


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

Big John said:


> Only because I suck at telling people "no."
> 
> -John


I hear you. I just replaced a thermostat yesterday for my little old lady neighbor for free. She didn't even make me cookies or anything. 

Last time I extend a generous hand to old people


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## Sparky J (May 17, 2011)

Just saw this thread, Hubbell wiring has an under cabinet box It's called an under cabinet/counter power distribution box its in the Hubbell residential products section. Sorry can't post a picture but the website is www.Hubbell-wiring.com.


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

Big John said:


> Good thinking. That's definitely the easiest solution. I'll pass that along with the wiremold idea and see which one they chose.
> 
> -John


Will you be within 5 1/2 feet from the floor?


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## Amish Electrician (Jan 2, 2010)

Ever see one of those cars that, with a few minor adjustments, turns into an airplane, or a boat? Oddly enough, such vehicles need to meet the rules for both cars and airplanes (or boats). They need both licenses, too. As does the driver / pilot.

The OP has a counter that both serves the kitchen and serves to divide a space. So, it gets to meet both sets of rules: for counters and for walls.

It needs SABC receptacles to serve the counter, AND it needs 'convenience receptacles' to serve the other room. 

If the 'other room' can be seen as part of the 'food serving' area - much as a dining room is - then the 'convenience receptacles' must also be on an SABC.

If the open area serves as a 'window,' rather than a bar, and the design clearly uses a different area for eating, then you probably can't put the receptacles on the SABC.

Likewise, I can see the room to be arranged in such a manner that only the convenience receptacles on the back of the counter can be on the SABC, while the rest of the room is on an 'ordinary' convenience circuit.

You'll have to use your judgement.


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