# Arc fault breaker in work shop



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

WHAT NEC CODE YEAR ARE YOU WORKING UNDER?


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## THARMON (Mar 21, 2010)

2008 code states just about every room except kitchens and baths (it uses the term similar areas) which is pretty vague


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

I wouldn't call a workshop a 'similar area' to family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms, parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sunrooms, recreation rooms, closets and hallways.


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## THARMON (Mar 21, 2010)

No , i have seen people set up a bedroom in a unfinished area and it slowly gets finished and becomes a bedroom. I just thought i would see what you thought. Inspectors some times make up their own idea of what a room is and they are hard to argue with after the job is done and now they make you buy 5 $45 breakers to get them out of there probably still best to call first thanks


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

You can't really wire an area for what it may become in the future, you can only wire it for what it is today.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

480sparky said:


> You can't really wire an area for what it may become in the future, you can only wire it for what it is today.



I agree with Ken.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

If it was finished and had a window and a closet, then I could see it being a similar room and would need arc protection. But since its unfinished I see it being more like a garage.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

jwjrw said:


> If it was finished and had a window and a closet, then I could see it being a similar room and would need arc protection. But since its unfinished I see it being more like a garage.


My kitchen has a window and a closet. My bathroom has a window and a closet. 

Why do you see this area as a "garage" and not just the basement that it is ?

This is how these things spin out of control be it form an inspectors or our own viewpoint. Over thinking every little detail and twisting and turning it until it becomes something that it is not. 

The op asked about an unfinished basement. No AFCI required, period.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

electricmanscott said:


> My kitchen has a window and a closet. My bathroom has a window and a closet.
> 
> Why do you see this area as a "garage" and not just the basement that it is ?
> 
> ...


If you have a room with a window and a closet (kitchens and baths are not included in this)even if its listed as an office on the plans they consider it a BEDROOM HERE. Not saying that is right or wrong just what they say here. And I said the basement is like a garage in that it dosent need arc protection.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Most all rooms have floors, walls and ceilings, so I guess they are all similar.

I agree with Scott's take on this.

IMO when the CMP says 'similar room' they mean similar in use not looks.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> If you have a room with a window and a closet (kitchens and baths are not included in this)even if its listed as an office on the plans they consider it a BEDROOM HERE.


So a dinning room is a bedroom?


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> So a dinning room is a bedroom?


that depends on your wife, not the NEC


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

wildleg said:


> that depends on your wife, not the NEC


:laughing:

Yeah but she does not even know what an AFCI is. :thumbsup:


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> So a dinning room is a bedroom?


 
My whole point was I have done lots of houses that had office on the plans(2005 nec at the time) and even though the plans said office the inspectors said it was a bedroom because of the window and closet.
I do not see an unfinished basement as a similar room. Am I right? I dont know. Ive said a hundred times that the nec should say something like every room except for kitchen, dining room, bathroom etc requires arc protection. Ofcourse then we wouldnt have as much to debate but it would make our jobs easier.

And yes Ive seen plenty of dining rooms/bedrooms( people from way down south coming here for work:whistling2the illegal ones!


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> My whole point was I have done lots of houses that had office on the plans(2005 nec at the time) and even though the plans said office the inspectors said it was a bedroom because of the window and closet.


IMO they have no right to do so.

Luckily where I live there is a specific rule that says the building owners get to determine the use of a room not the inspectors prediction of the future.





> And yes Ive seen plenty of dining rooms/bedrooms( people from way down south coming here for work:whistling2the illegal ones!


IMPO it does not matter what the room is used for, it matters what the plans say it is and how the home is zoned.

I have a sleep sofa in my living room and sometimes I let my kids sleep over night on it. That does not make it a bedroom.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> IMO they have no right to do so.
> 
> Luckily where I live there is a specific rule that says the building owners get to determine the use of a room not the inspectors prediction of the future.
> 
> ...


 
I dont disagree with you but " it is what it is here." Ive talked to the chief inspector and that is how they determine what kind a room it is. I pointed out the plans say office, didnt change what they want right or not. 

Do you agree that the nec could say what they want in a more user friendly way?


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

the NEC isn't the final word, your local ahj is the final word. It doesn't matter what the NEC says, even if they listed every type of room ever made your jurisdiction might be inclined to spell out things differently with local amendments, and as I'm sure you know, many do. Jurisdictions that are lax will loosen the rules, and proactive ones will tighten them up; don't blame nfpa for that. (personally, I am glad for the tight locales - I would bet that 3 out of 4 "offices" end up as bedrooms, so why fight about putting a smoke in them ?)


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

wildleg said:


> the NEC isn't the final word, your local ahj is the final word.


As long as it is in writing and not pulled from the AHJs head dependent on if they got any last night I agree 100%




> Jurisdictions that are lax will loosen the rules, and proactive ones will tighten them up; don't blame nfpa for that.


Here in MA we have about 65 amendments to the NEC, some tighter, some less restrictive.




> (personally, I am glad for the tight locales - I would bet that 3 out of 4 "offices" end up as bedrooms, so *why fight about putting a smoke in them?*


To me that is not the point, to me the point is that is we have to follow the plans so should the enforcement officers.

I also do not want the building officails to start predicting the future, give them an inch and they will take a mile.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

If you guys want to use what a room is called out as on the plans as a method to determine how to wire it, then wire this dwelling:

No kitchen, just a Food Preperation and Storage Area.
No bedrooms, just Sleeping Quarters.
No basement, just a Unfinished Foundation Space.
No bathrooms, just Bolidy Function Processing Zone.
No laundry, only an Apparal Cleansing Station.
No appliances, all that are installed are Appurtenances.


Heck, we could do away with this whole shopping list of synonyms and not even call it a dwelling. Let's just call in a Abode.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

480sparky said:


> If you guys want to use what a room is called out as on the plans as a method to determine how to wire it, then wire this dwelling:
> 
> No kitchen, just a Food Preperation and Storage Area.
> No bedrooms, just Sleeping Quarters.
> ...


Trouble is, Ken, many of those rooms in your list have legal definitions in the construction codes. An office or a study with a closet does not meet the legal definition of a bedroom.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

480sparky said:


> If you guys want to use what a room is called out as on the plans as a method to determine how to wire it, then wire this dwelling:
> 
> No kitchen, just a Food Preperation and Storage Area.
> No bedrooms, just Sleeping Quarters.
> ...


Don't be a tool ....... oh wait you cannot help yourself. :whistling2: :laughing:

Assuming there is a plan it would have been turned into the building officials for a permit and in most areas you will not be approved or get a CO for a dwelling unit(s) that do not include kitchen(s), bathroom(s) and bedroom(s).


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> Trouble is, Ken, many of those rooms in your list have legal definitions in the construction codes. An office or a study with a closet does not meet the legal definition of a bedroom.


 
It would around here.

I remember wiring a house with an office in the basement. The inspector told the HO specifically to not install doors on the closet, or he'd have to consider it a bedroom. 

The HO either ignored it, or forgot it. Come final inspection, the doors were on the closet. So the HO had to cut into the foundation and install an egress window........ under the deck.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

480sparky said:


> It would around here.
> 
> I remember wiring a house with an office in the basement. The inspector told the HO specifically to not install doors on the closet, or he'd have to consider it a bedroom.


Have you seen the rule written down? 

Can you post it?


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

William1978. Mr. West is the one inspector that I remember told me if an office in a dwelling has a closet and a window it is a bedroom.(at least 1 other has also but I don't remember who) Do you know if that was something NC has in writing?


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