# Outdoor load center installation



## pghelectrician

Good morning all,

In the 11-12 years I've been an electrician, I have never had to install an outdoor load center. I have done hundreds of service replacement/upgrades and sub panel installations but never dealt with an outdoor panel.

I will more than likely be installing a 200 amp meter socket/load center combo, fed inside the house to a 200 amp sub panel.

A few questions...

Are outdoor load centers grounded the same (ground rods & water meter) as indoor load centers?

Since I will be using the outdoor panel solely to feed the sub panel inside, I will need to install a 200 amp sub feed lug kit, correct?

Thanks guys, I appreciate your help. Please bear with my stupid questions. Like I said, I have never had to deal with a setup like this before.


----------



## MDShunk

When I'm using an outdoor panel to feed a sub inside, I generally just buy the empty outdoor can, buy a MB panel, and move the breaker. Saves a ton of money that way. Put lugs in the indoor panel where the breaker used to be. I know that you can do this with QO, HOM, and CH-CH. Not sure about other brands.


----------



## jwjrw

pghelectrician said:


> Good morning all,
> 
> In the 11-12 years I've been an electrician, I have never had to install an outdoor load center. I have done hundreds of service replacement/upgrades and sub panel installations but never dealt with an outdoor panel.




Nothing different really



pghelectrician said:


> I will more than likely be installing a 200 amp meter socket/load center combo, fed inside the house to a 200 amp sub panel.




Why do you need 200Amps inside? Why not feed 150Amp inside? 



pghelectrician said:


> A few questions...
> 
> Are outdoor load centers grounded the same (ground rods & water meter) as indoor load centers?



Yes



pghelectrician said:


> Since I will be using the outdoor panel solely to feed the sub panel inside, I will need to install a 200 amp sub feed lug kit, correct?




Either a trailer panel or set a 2 circuit disconnect if you do not need circuits outside. I usually set at least a 12 circuit outside for 240v loads. 

Remember your inside panel must be fed with a 4 wire.


----------



## pghelectrician

MDShunk said:


> When I'm using an outdoor panel to feed a sub inside, I generally just buy the empty outdoor can, buy a MB panel, and move the breaker. Saves a ton of money that way. Put lugs in the indoor panel where the breaker used to be. I know that you can do this with QO, HOM, and CH-CH. Not sure about other brands.


 
Thanks for the quick response MD.

This sounds like a great idea considering the lug kits I have priced were around 100 bucks. 

So can this be done with a load center/meter combo? In other words, do they make a main lug/meter socket combo? Or would I have to use a separate meter socket and outdoor load center?

Thanks again!


----------



## Dennis Alwon

Generally I use a meter with a separate trailer panel-- WP 8 cir. panel with feed thru lugs, but they may make a meter main combo with feed thru lugs.


----------



## pghelectrician

So when you guys say "trailer panel" What do you mean? Sorry. I'm just making sure I'm on the same page as you guys.


----------



## pghelectrician

jwjrw said:


> Why do you need 200Amps inside? Why not feed 150Amp inside?


 
Thanks jwjrw.

There are no plans for anything ever being fed from the outdoor panel besides the sub panel I am speaking of. That is why I was going to feed 200 amps to the sub panel.


----------



## jwjrw

pghelectrician said:


> So when you guys say "trailer panel" What do you mean? Sorry. I'm just making sure I'm on the same page as you guys.




A panel with breaker on top of bus and feed thru lugs on the bottom of the bus.


----------



## pghelectrician

jwjrw said:


> A panel with breaker on top of bus and feed thru lugs on the bottom of the bus.


 
Ok thats what I thought you were talking about.

Is this the better way to go? Should I ditch the idea of using a combination meter/load center panel?


----------



## Dennis Alwon

pghelectrician said:


> Ok thats what I thought you were talking about.
> 
> Is this the better way to go? Should I ditch the idea of using a combination meter/load center panel?


Some love the combo units but I have not used them much simply because I don't like change.  . If the combo unit has what you want then go for it as it is a time saver. They are pricey.


----------



## jwjrw

pghelectrician said:


> Ok thats what I thought you were talking about.
> 
> Is this the better way to go? Should I ditch the idea of using a combination meter/load center panel?


I use meter combos on some jobs. Depends on space requirements really.

I usually set a meter and a 200 amp MB panel outside. Then set a ML panel inside. Each job is a little different. Do you really need 200A inside? Most cases you do not. You could use a regular 150 breaker and feed inside panel off it.


----------



## pghelectrician

So does a trailer panel come with the feed through lugs already installed or would I still have to buy the lug kit separate?


----------



## Dennis Alwon

jwjrw said:


> I use meter combos on some jobs. Depends on space requirements really.
> 
> I usually set a meter and a 200 amp MB panel outside. Then set a ML panel inside. Each job is a little different. Do you really need 200A inside? Most cases you do not. You could use a regular 150 breaker and feed inside panel off it.


John can you install a 150 amp breaker on the bus of those combo panels. I know a standard 200 amp panel only allows 125 amp breaker to attach to the bus.


----------



## Dennis Alwon

pghelectrician said:


> So does a trailer panel come with the feed through lugs already installed or would I still have to buy the lug kit separate?


All ready to go.


----------



## jwjrw

pghelectrician said:


> So does a trailer panel come with the feed through lugs already installed or would I still have to buy the lug kit separate?




Nope they come with them already on it.


----------



## jwjrw

Dennis Alwon said:


> John can you install a 150 amp breaker on the bus of those combo panels. I know a standard 200 amp panel only allows 125 amp breaker to attach to the bus.




The 200 Amp CH panels we use are rated for a 150A breaker on the bus. Their smaller panels like a 12/24 circuits are only rated for 125 Amp.


----------



## Dennis Alwon

jwjrw said:


> The 200 Amp CH panels we use are rated for a 150A breaker on the bus. Their smaller panels like a 12/24 circuits are only rated for 125 Amp.


I don't believe I have ever used a 150 amp panel or breaker. If I had to buy a 150 amp panel it would cost me twice as much as a 200. No one stocks them around here.


----------



## pghelectrician

Dennis Alwon said:


> I don't believe I have ever used a 150 amp panel or breaker. If I had to buy a 150 amp panel it would cost me twice as much as a 200. No one stocks them around here.


 
Same thing here. About 5 years ago, most supply shops phased out 150 amp materials so now they're actually more costly than 200 amp materials.


----------



## jwjrw

Dennis Alwon said:


> I don't believe I have ever used a 150 amp panel or breaker. If I had to buy a 150 amp panel it would cost me twice as much as a 200. No one stocks them around here.




It's rare for me too. Usually my subs are 100Amp or 60Amp. This job required us moving the service outside. I used a 200 amp MB panel outside and then used a 150amp breaker to feed inside panel.......... Now the customer wants the inside panel moved and they want me remove the junction box and conduits we installed.... I plan to come out of the back of the outside panel and thru attic to new panel location.

I was surprised they had a 150amp breaker in stock. With customers like this price is not an issue.....getting what they want is.


----------



## jwjrw

pghelectrician said:


> Same thing here. About 5 years ago, most supply shops phased out 150 amp materials so now they're actually more costly than 200 amp materials.




Since the change in 2008 on the ampacity of SE cable many people here use 150 stuff now.We use very little SE cable so we still use 200 Amp stuff.


----------



## Roger123

pghelectrician said:


> There are no plans for anything ever being fed from the outdoor panel besides the sub panel I am speaking of.


If you must have a outdoor disco., just get a meter with a main disconnect.


----------



## pghelectrician

Another stupid question...

They do make 4/0 4-conductor SER cable to feed the sub panel from the trailer panel?

I've never had to use sub feed cable that large...


----------



## jwjrw

pghelectrician said:


> Another stupid question...
> 
> They do make 4/0 4-conductor SER cable to feed the sub panel from the trailer panel?
> 
> I've never had to use sub feed cable that large...



Sure but the change in ampacity of SE cable in 2008 means you have to use 300 mcm. Thats why I was asking do you really need 200a inside.


----------



## Dennis Alwon

jwjrw said:


> Sure but the change in ampacity of SE cable in 2008 means you have to use 300 mcm. Thats why I was asking do you really need 200a inside.


The op said there are no loads in the exterior panel so 4/0 is good.


----------



## jwjrw

Dennis Alwon said:


> The op said there are no loads in the exterior panel so 4/0 is good.



310.15 (b) (6)?????


----------



## Dennis Alwon

jwjrw said:


> 310.15 (b) (6)?????


yep..........


----------



## jwjrw

Dennis Alwon said:


> yep..........



We always have outside loads so almost every inside panel I install can not use 310.15(b)(6)


----------



## MDShunk

Not sure I'd advise the trailer panel if the only use for this outdoor disco is to feed the panel inside. If you need some branch circuits to originate from outdoors, however, the trailer panel is probably the way to go--- like for A/C units in the vicinity of the new service.


----------



## Dennis Alwon

MDShunk said:


> Not sure I'd advise the trailer panel if the only use for this outdoor disco is to feed the panel inside. If you need some branch circuits to originate from outdoors, however, the trailer panel is probably the way to go--- like for A/C units in the vicinity of the new service.


The reason we use it is because I generally pipe to the inside panel and use copper but even with 4/0 in pvc it is rated 180 amps. So the as long as the calculated load in the interior panel is 180 or less this is my preference. Also a trailer panel is less expensive then a 200 amp wp disco and breaker and it has a lot more room.


----------



## pghelectrician

Dennis Alwon said:


> The reason we use it is because I generally pipe to the inside panel and use copper but even with 4/0 in pvc it is rated 180 amps. So the as long as the calculated load in the interior panel is 180 or less this is my preference. Also a trailer panel is less expensive then a 200 amp wp disco and breaker and it has a lot more room.


 
Am I required to pipe in the cable from the outside panel to the sub panel? It is not a common practice around here.


----------



## MDShunk

pghelectrician said:


> Am I required to pipe in the cable from the outside panel to the sub panel? It is not a common practice around here.


Nope. That is, not if the structure is of a class of construction that would permit SER or NM. I think you said you're dealing with a dwelling, so you're good with whatever method you pick.


----------



## MDShunk

Dennis Alwon said:


> Also a trailer panel is less expensive then a 200 amp wp disco and breaker and it has a lot more room.


Yeah, I hear you. That's why I advised buying an empty can and moving the main from a MB panel. That gets you an outdoor 200 amp disconnect for 35 bucks. To different means to the same end.


----------



## pghelectrician

MDShunk said:


> Nope. That is, not if the structure is of a class of construction that would permit SER or NM. I think you said you're dealing with a dwelling, so you're good with whatever method you pick.


 
Would it be legal to pipe in the SER cable on the outside of the dwelling and have it open air once it is inside? The way the house is constructed, it would be extremely hard to pipe it all the way to the panel but I wouldn't mind having the added protection on the exterior of the house.


----------



## MDShunk

pghelectrician said:


> Would it be legal to pipe in the SER cable on the outside of the dwelling and have it open air once it is inside? The way the house is constructed, it would be extremely hard to pipe it all the way to the panel but I wouldn't mind having the added protection on the exterior of the house.


Uh, yeah... but the pipe size would be HUGE. The fill for one cable is 53%. Just going off the top of my head, you'd need 3 or 3-1/2" outside. The transition from pipe to cable would have to be talked over with the inspector. There are some compliant and some not-quite-compliant ways to do that.


----------



## pghelectrician

MDShunk said:


> Uh, yeah... but the pipe size would be HUGE. The fill for one cable is 53%. Just going off the top of my head, you'd need 3 or 3-1/2" outside. The transition from pipe to cable would have to be talked over with the inspector. There are some compliant and some not-quite-compliant ways to do that.


 
Yeah I thought abou that after I posted the question...Where I'd be entering the house with my cable would be almost ground level. That's why I was asking


----------



## Dennis Alwon

pghelectrician said:


> Yeah I thought abou that after I posted the question...Where I'd be entering the house with my cable would be almost ground level. That's why I was asking


Just run individual 4/0 conductors. Why pay extra for the cable that will potentially give you a reduced ampacity.


----------



## MDShunk

pghelectrician said:


> Yeah I thought abou that after I posted the question...Where I'd be entering the house with my cable would be almost ground level. That's why I was asking


Seriously, there's a dozen ways to do this. You've just gotta crunch some numbers based on a few things. Aesthetics, material available locally, and price for materials for the various methods. Whatever you come up with will likely be compliant (after all, you're an electrician). It just might not be how I'd do it or how the next guy would do it. 

If you can find a meter-main, that would be the least ugly on the outside of the house, and possibly the most expensive. If you go with a meter and a separate trailer panel, that would be the largest and possibly the ugliest method. There's a few methods in between. 

S'zackly how far inside the house is the existing or proposed sub panel?


----------



## pghelectrician

MDShunk said:


> Seriously, there's a dozen ways to do this. You've just gotta crunch some numbers based on a few things. Aesthetics, material available locally, and price for materials for the various methods. Whatever you come up with will likely be compliant (after all, you're an electrician). It just might not be how I'd do it or how the next guy would do it.
> 
> If you can find a meter-main, that would be the least ugly on the outside of the house, and possibly the most expensive. If you go with a meter and a separate trailer panel, that would be the largest and possibly the ugliest method. There's a few methods in between.
> 
> S'zackly how far inside the house is the existing or proposed sub panel?


 
The sub panel will be 20 feet inside the house


----------



## pghelectrician

Dennis Alwon said:


> Just run individual 4/0 conductors. Why pay extra for the cable that will potentially give you a reduced ampacity.


 
But then I'd have to pipe them in, correct? Like I said before, the way the house was built, piping it in would be extremely difficult.


----------



## MDShunk

pghelectrician said:


> The sub panel will be 20 feet inside the house


Bummer. 

Oh well. You've got your options now. Get your calculator out. Or, just pick whatever suits you best if price isn't a huge concern.


----------



## MDShunk

pghelectrician said:


> But then I'd have to pipe them in, correct? Like I said before, the way the house was built, piping it in would be extremely difficult.


Use pipe outside and transition to LFNMC inside, perhaps. That's at least as easy to run as SER.


----------



## pghelectrician

MDShunk said:


> Use pipe outside and transition to LFNMC inside, perhaps. That's at least as easy to run as SER.


 
So you wouldn't run SER straight from the WP panel to the sub feed panel?


----------



## MDShunk

pghelectrician said:


> So you wouldn't run SER straight from the WP panel to the sub feed panel?


I would, but that's just me. I haven't seen the place to see how nice or not nice it is. I also haven't seen the conditions where the SER would need to be run. Safe to say, however, that SER would be my first choice if it would look right on the place and it wasn't subject to physical damage (whatever that might mean to you and your inspector).


----------



## pghelectrician

For this application, I think SER would be perfectly fine. Now I just have to figure out what size to use. jwjrw got me thinking about using 300 mcm instead of 4/0. Perhaps I'm overthinking things now...


----------



## Dennis Alwon

pghelectrician said:


> But then I'd have to pipe them in, correct? Like I said before, the way the house was built, piping it in would be extremely difficult.


I have seen very few basements or crawl spaces where piping it would be a problem. Sometimes the pipe needs to stay low below any dropped beams or ride over them if possible. When I drop the pipe down I nail a 2x4 to the floor joist to the height I want to attach my pipe to. You can also use threaded rod but that is more work.


----------



## pghelectrician

Dennis Alwon said:


> I have seen very few basements or crawl spaces where piping it would be a problem. Sometimes the pipe needs to stay low below any dropped beams or ride over them if possible. When I drop the pipe down I nail a 2x4 to the floor joist to the height I want to attach my pipe to. You can also use threaded rod but that is more work.


 
The problem with the crawl space in the house is the crazy duct work. Its a mess. Would be a huge problem getting around all of it.


----------



## pghelectrician

I just called my supply shop. They said that if I'd go with a Cutler Hammer meter/main combo, it would be $180.00 but they'd give me a 40 space CH sub panel for $72.00 instead of $160.00. Th meter/main combo comes with the pass through lugs also.


----------



## sfeyelectric

What supply house are you dealing with? Sunray?


----------



## pghelectrician

sfeyelectric said:


> What supply house are you dealing with? Sunray?


Cardello


----------



## jwjrw

MDShunk said:


> Seriously, there's a dozen ways to do this. You've just gotta crunch some numbers based on a few things. Aesthetics, material available locally, and price for materials for the various methods. Whatever you come up with will likely be compliant (after all, you're an electrician). It just might not be how I'd do it or how the next guy would do it.
> 
> If you can find a meter-main, that would be the least ugly on the outside of the house, and possibly the most expensive. If you go with a meter and a separate trailer panel, that would be the largest and possibly the ugliest method. There's a few methods in between.
> 
> S'zackly how far inside the house is the existing or proposed sub panel?



I can think of 4 ways I would price this. I most likely would move most circuits outside and run a 100 or 60 amp sub panel inside. If I was set on a 200a inside how I did it would depend on job itself the.


----------



## jwjrw

pghelectrician said:


> For this application, I think SER would be perfectly fine. Now I just have to figure out what size to use. jwjrw got me thinking about using 300 mcm instead of 4/0. Perhaps I'm overthinking things now...




You can use 310.15(b)(6) as Dennis pointed out so 4/0 is ok. If you had any loads in the outside panel you would then have to use 300 mcm.


----------



## doubleoh7

jwjrw said:


> You can use 310.15(b)(6) as Dennis pointed out so 4/0 is ok. If you had any loads in the outside panel you would then have to use 300 mcm.


 
I think you are saying it would not be a feeder if there are loads on the outside panel?

 

Why does the NEC not make sense sometimes???


----------



## Dennis Alwon

doubleoh7 said:


> I think you are saying it would not be a feeder if there are loads on the outside panel?
> 
> 
> 
> Why does the NEC not make sense sometimes???


It is still a feeder in either case but if there are loads in the outside panel other than the feeder to the interior panel then those conductors cannot benefit from 310.15(B)(6)


----------



## jwjrw

doubleoh7 said:


> I think you are saying it would not be a feeder if there are loads on the outside panel?
> 
> 
> 
> Why does the NEC not make sense sometimes???


To use 310.15(b)(6) the inside panel must carry the load of the dwelling.




(7) 120/240-Volt, 3-Wire, Single-Phase Dwelling Services
and Feeders. For individual dwelling units of onefamily,
two-family, and multifamily dwellings, conductors,
as listed in Table 310.15(B)(7), shall be permitted as
120/240-volt, 3-wire, single-phase service-entrance conductors,
service-lateral conductors, and feeder conductors
that serve as the main power feeder to each dwelling unit
and are installed in raceway or cable with or without an
equipment grounding conductor. *For application of this section,
the main power feeder shall be the feeder between the
main disconnect and the panelboard that supplies, either by
branch circuits or by feeders, or both, all loads that are part
or associated with the dwelling unit.* The feeder conductors
to a dwelling unit shall not be required to have an allowable
ampacity rating greater than their service-entrance conductors.
The grounded conductor shall be permitted to be
smaller than the ungrounded conductors, provided the requirements
of 215.2, 220.61, and 230.42 are met.


----------



## doubleoh7

jwjrw said:


> To use 310.15(b)(6) the inside panel must carry the load of the dwelling.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (7) 120/240-Volt, 3-Wire, Single-Phase Dwelling Services
> and Feeders. For individual dwelling units of onefamily,
> two-family, and multifamily dwellings, conductors,
> as listed in Table 310.15(B)(7), shall be permitted as
> 120/240-volt, 3-wire, single-phase service-entrance conductors,
> service-lateral conductors, and feeder conductors
> that serve as the main power feeder to each dwelling unit
> and are installed in raceway or cable with or without an
> equipment grounding conductor. *For application of this section,*
> *the main power feeder shall be the feeder between the*
> *main disconnect and the panelboard that supplies, either by*
> *branch circuits or by feeders, or both, all loads that are part*
> *or associated with the dwelling unit.* The feeder conductors
> to a dwelling unit shall not be required to have an allowable
> ampacity rating greater than their service-entrance conductors.
> The grounded conductor shall be permitted to be
> smaller than the ungrounded conductors, provided the requirements
> of 215.2, 220.61, and 230.42 are met.


 

The feeder conductors
to a dwelling unit shall not be required to have an allowable
ampacity rating greater than their service-entrance conductors.


What about the part in red?


----------



## jwjrw

doubleoh7 said:


> The feeder conductors
> to a dwelling unit shall not be required to have an allowable
> ampacity rating greater than their service-entrance conductors.
> 
> 
> What about the part in red?


What about it?:001_huh:

It's saying that if you followed 310.16 the feeder that is carring all the load would be bigger than the feeder outside with no loads. The red is the part that lets you use 310.15(b)(6).


----------



## doubleoh7

jwjrw said:


> You can use 310.15(b)(6) as Dennis pointed out so 4/0 is ok. If you had any loads in the outside panel you would then have to use 300 mcm.


 

The 300 MCM for a 200 amp feeder is where I am lost.


----------



## jwjrw

doubleoh7 said:


> The 300 MCM for a 200 amp feeder is where I am lost.




In 2008 they changed the ampacity of ser to 60 deg. For a 200 amp service using AL ser you would have to use 300mcm which is good for 190 amps.


----------



## doubleoh7

jwjrw said:


> In 2008 they changed the ampacity of ser to 60 deg. For a 200 amp service using AL ser you would have to use 300mcm which is good for 190 amps.


Thanks, I wasn't picking up what you were putting down.


----------



## pghelectrician

Thanks for all of your help guys! You've been a huge help!


----------



## doubleoh7

Here is another idea. I would have to see the house to know of it is viable or not.

Why not just install a new 200 amp panel on the wall opposite the meter base and run new home runs to above the old 200 amp panel and splice them in the attic?


----------



## macmikeman

Here is macmikeman's how I do it. I use a Cutler Hammer BR 200 amp meter / main combo 4/6 spaces. You can fit 2 double pole 100 amp breakers into it or 1 125 amp double pole and a 2 pole 70 in it, or a 2 pole 100 and a quad 50/50, or one of a few other combinations. My usual is 2-100 amp 2 pole breakers and run two sub panels off that. I've been using 1/0 Ser for about 5 or six years for my subfeeds, cause they were talking about the 2008 at Mike Holt for at least that long now, and I could have used #2 up till last Nov. 30 but I been using 1/0 instead. I run a uffer ground (concrete encased electrode) and hook to the water pipe outside any place I like where it comes out of the ground as long as its 10 foot of buried metal water pipe. The electrons in a lightning strike (in theory, but nobody really is totally sure about that) appreciate that as it is the ground the lightning is after, not someplace within 5 ft of where the pipe is first inside the building. When electrons get wise enough to carry around measuring tapes like inspectors do, they will possibly start thinking differently, but for now the shorter path to ground is outside the building about 2 or three inches above the point where the water pipe goes into the damn soil... Oh, did I mention we don't have frost or basements here so the water always goes outside first and then down into the dirt.


----------



## pghelectrician

doubleoh7 said:


> Here is another idea. I would have to see the house to know of it is viable or not.
> 
> Why not just install a new 200 amp panel on the wall opposite the meter base and run new home runs to above the old 200 amp panel and splice them in the attic?


 
Normally I would do something like that but the panel would be in a tight crawlspace if I would do it that way on this house.


----------



## frenchelectrican

Dennis Alwon said:


> John can you install a 150 amp breaker on the bus of those combo panels. I know a standard 200 amp panel only allows 125 amp breaker to attach to the bus.


 
Just head up with the Cutter-Hammer panels if you going to use 150 amp breaker they will take up 4 space instead of normal two space and what more I know the CH2150 breaker which I did order quite few years back they have a small hump on one side of the breaker itself to prevent to add any more breaker across the CH2150 breaker.

Ditto with CH3150 breaker and I know BR series is about the same way if I did recall it right.

And they are not cheap and the CH2150 breaker have one nice feature it have 40° connectors {sorta like bented connectors if you get my drift } so you don't have to worry about bending the large conductor in that spots.

Oh by the way they only fit with 200 amp and larger panels.

Merci.
Marc


----------



## Shockdoc

jwjrw said:


> It's rare for me too. Usually my subs are 100Amp or 60Amp. This job required us moving the service outside. I used a 200 amp MB panel outside and then used a 150amp breaker to feed inside panel.......... Now the customer wants the inside panel moved and they want me remove the junction box and conduits we installed.... I plan to come out of the back of the outside panel and thru attic to new panel location.
> 
> I was surprised they had a 150amp breaker in stock. With customers like this price is not an issue.....getting what they want is.


NO MIGB on EMT run exiting plastic pull box:huh:


----------



## jwjrw

Shockdoc said:


> NO MIGB on EMT run exiting plastic pull box:huh:





I assume you are asking how the emt got bonded.....I had put the lock nut on in that picture just to secure the box while the GC installed wood for me to attach the box to. I used a bonding bushing. :yes:


----------



## BobBob

*$*



jwjrw said:


> Since the change in 2008 on the ampacity of SE cable many people here use 150 stuff now.We use very little SE cable so we still use 200 Amp stuff.



It's just another money making trick by folks with lot's of these 

http://www.amazon.com/General-Electric-THQL2190-Circuit-Breaker/dp/B000M2WDJM

In my opinion, that change is ridiculous. Oh well


----------

