# I just dont get this mentality ?



## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

I've been in the trade 22 years . About half of that time was spent with a very large non- union contractor . All commercial / industrial / transit / and communication work . He organized at the mid point of my career there and most of the " shop " guys were put into surrounding locals . If you were already a journeyman , you transferred over as a journeyman . If you were an apprentice , they bumped you back to first year . So , the type of work stays the same for a while and jobs pulled from the hall as needed . There really weren't too many changes except one that I still hear to this day , and it couldn't be farther from the truth in most cases . A girl in my local posted some pictures of observed electrical work somewhere over the weekend . I'm guilty of this too , I think we all are ? It was some not so nice looking exposed conduit work . It automatically turned into " that looks like a typical rat / scab outfit , because none of those guys know what they're doing " ! Not only , is this not true , it's offensive as hell to any non union guy who knows his / her **** ! The work I did and other guys for this company in our ore union days was second to none , and often a lot better than some union installations I've seen since . These young kids coming through the program are being taught this and it's a damn disgrace ! The best and worst work on both sides of this divide , but a non union guy is still inferior ? That theory may have been true years ago , but sure isn't now . Some of the biggest EC 's out there are non - union , and are doing just fine ! This kind of thinking is unfortunately alive and well in the IBEW , and will be it's ultimate demise . Some of the absolute dumbest electricians I've ever met were card holding members making the same as me , as I have to draw out how a 3-way switch works ? So much for the superior training ? In not union bashing , but this up and coming generation is being fed a bunch of info that isn't true , and isn't fair ! Go ahead let it fly , lol !


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

drumnut08 said:


> I've been in the trade 22 years . About half of that time was spent with a very large non- union contractor . All commercial / industrial / transit / and communication work . He organized at the mid point of my career there and most of the " shop " guys were put into surrounding locals . If you were already a journeyman , you transferred over as a journeyman . If you were an apprentice , they bumped you back to first year . So , the type of work stays the same for a while and jobs pulled from the hall as needed . There really weren't too many changes except one that I still hear to this day , and it couldn't be farther from the truth in most cases . A girl in my local posted some pictures of observed electrical work somewhere over the weekend . I'm guilty of this too , I think we all are ? It was some not so nice looking exposed conduit work . It automatically turned into " that looks like a typical rat / scab outfit , because none of those guys know what they're doing " ! Not only , is this not true , it's offensive as hell to any non union guy who knows his / her **** ! The work I did and other guys for this company in our ore union days was second to none , and often a lot better than some union installations I've seen since . These young kids coming through the program are being taught this and it's a damn disgrace ! The best and worst work on both sides of this divide , but a non union guy is still inferior ? That theory may have been true years ago , but sure isn't now . Some of the biggest EC 's out there are non - union , and are doing just fine ! This kind of thinking is unfortunately alive and well in the IBEW , and will be it's ultimate demise . Some of the absolute dumbest electricians I've ever met were card holding members making the same as me , as I have to draw out how a 3-way switch works ? So much for the superior training ? In not union bashing , but this up and coming generation is being fed a bunch of info that isn't true , and isn't fair ! Go ahead let it fly , lol !


They're over selling the union to these kids, depending on what state you are working in, the training in the non-union shop is just as good.


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## kg7879 (Feb 3, 2014)

It goes both ways. If you were to put a poll up and ask if Union electricians are lazy and entitled i bet 90% of the non union guys would say hell yes. 

If you put up a poll for Union guys to vote whether non union craftsmanship was inferior you would probably have the same outcome as above.

Half truths and down right lies prevail on both sides.

I think the only real issue the IBEW should have with non union contractors is the racing to the bottom which hurts everybody in this trade.


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

Black Dog said:


> They're over selling the union to these kids, depending on what state you are working in, the training in the non-union shop is just as good.


. Yep . I understand there are lots of cheap fleabag companies out there , but to make a generalization that they if they're not union , they suck , is wrong . Granted , it's not everyone that thinks this way , but these are a batch of apprentices and someone is telling them this stuff ? It's just stupid ! I don't care what someone else does , and quite frankly , there's enough work out there for everyone . We don't all have to belong to the same club .


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Drumnut, when some people see a situation that leaves a bad taste in their mouth, the sky is the limit on the insults and disparaging words they choose. Just broad-stroking "scabs did this on the weekend" is really the easy way out for any simpleton. 

Even within union ranks, some shops here are "noted" for the "scabby" work others see done. Fact of the matter is, it's never really about the labor pool, it's management that is usually the driving force behind shortcuts and boo-hoos.


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## FrunkSlammer (Aug 31, 2013)

Group mentality. Pick a group to identify with and vilify those not in the group. 

The only real issue is that the IBEW could actually disappear.. non-union workers are here to stay and becoming the standard. I think unions have a good role and do well for many workers, but they gotta run a cleaner game and big better if they want to last. 

In my opinion the only unions that will be around in the near future are going to be for government workers. Private sector and corporations are really busting up and eliminating unions. It's impossible to compete, unless the work is protected like government jobs.


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## ampman (Apr 2, 2009)

drumnut08 said:


> I've been in the trade 22 years . About half of that time was spent with a very large non- union contractor . All commercial / industrial / transit / and communication work . He organized at the mid point of my career there and most of the " shop " guys were put into surrounding locals . If you were already a journeyman , you transferred over as a journeyman . If you were an apprentice , they bumped you back to first year . So , the type of work stays the same for a while and jobs pulled from the hall as needed . There really weren't too many changes except one that I still hear to this day , and it couldn't be farther from the truth in most cases . A girl in my local posted some pictures of observed electrical work somewhere over the weekend . I'm guilty of this too , I think we all are ? It was some not so nice looking exposed conduit work . It automatically turned into " that looks like a typical rat / scab outfit , because none of those guys know what they're doing " ! Not only , is this not true , it's offensive as hell to any non union guy who knows his / her **** ! The work I did and other guys for this company in our ore union days was second to none , and often a lot better than some union installations I've seen since . These young kids coming through the program are being taught this and it's a damn disgrace ! The best and worst work on both sides of this divide , but a non union guy is still inferior ? That theory may have been true years ago , but sure isn't now . Some of the biggest EC 's out there are non - union , and are doing just fine ! This kind of thinking is unfortunately alive and well in the IBEW , and will be it's ultimate demise . Some of the absolute dumbest electricians I've ever met were card holding members making the same as me , as I have to draw out how a 3-way switch works ? So much for the superior training ? In not union bashing , but this up and coming generation is being fed a bunch of info that isn't true , and isn't fair ! Go ahead let it fly , lol !


We're they unorganized to begin with


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

The universal axiom is good, fast, cheap

Normally you can get _any_ two out of three from a larger company

But if you _really _want all three, you have to find a company with little to zero overhead

Guess who _that_ may be .....:whistling2::laughing:

~CS~


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## FrunkSlammer (Aug 31, 2013)

chicken steve said:


> Guess who _that_ may be .....:whistling2::laughing:


Gypsies? :blink:


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Guys like me Frunk

This '_mentality_' isn't so much U or nonU 

It's what companies do when they realize their overhead makes them non competitive

They know i can come in lower, with a higher P/E ratio

~CS~


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## 51360 (Jun 9, 2014)

Great posts!

Someone mentioned a three way switch, ( reminded me of a story in the old days of local 1687, Sudbury local), when 10 day calls were common. A member could take a call for 10 days, and not lose his spot on the list! Well, it was abused. Members would show up, do nothing, make a pile of money and go home.

On my first Union job, this happened! An older member explained how it worked, with a little addition? 

He said all those new guys, ten day callers, with a few exceptions, are " dumber than bastard rats, couldn't wire a three way switch " :laughing:

On to topic, I have been on both sides of the fence, Union and non Union, but I have never straddled the fence! Definitely talent, ( as well as non ), on both sides! It's an individual choice, and you are certainly entitled! :thumbsup:

Thanks, Borgi


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

chicken steve said:


> Guys like me Frunk
> 
> This '_mentality_' isn't so much U or nonU
> 
> ...


Probably the biggest drawback I see with the union (as long as they leave the non-union guys alone) is that it's a lot harder for them to get rid of the dead wood. When I used to work for someone else, (non-union) I had a number of different guys working under me and it's very maddening to end up doing about 75% of the work and they still draw a paycheck. At least there, if it got bad enough, they were sent down the road.


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## kg7879 (Feb 3, 2014)

The contractors have a right to reject any member referred to them by the hall and they do not have to give a reason.

Contractors can fire people as well but rarely do. That is on them not the union. The union has procedures for disciplining members that are fired for just cause.


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## mr hands (Sep 15, 2013)

I noticed the better non-union commercial contractors, like one of the IES's in particular, put an emphasis on quality work.

Because it pays to do quality work upfront. And when the package for a non-union guy is 60% of a union guy's, they can afford to do spaceship quality. There's about the same amount of manhours in all the lowbids. Just happens to be the non-union ec keeps alot more of the pie in those manhours. He can afford to encourage quality work. 

Those to blame are the one's who encourage shoddy workmanship at the expense of the customer's ignorance.


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## Spunk#7 (Nov 30, 2012)

I would say 90% of union electricians are pipe and wire specialist.that is not a negative,but what is required of them on the job. Both the local and P&W types have very little regard for electricians with an extensive technical background. "Who ya' gonna'call" ?


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

Spunk#7 said:


> I would say 90% of union electricians are pipe and wire specialist.that is not a negative,but what is required of them on the job. Both the local and P&W types have very little regard for electricians with an extensive technical background. "Who ya' gonna'call" ?


In our area most testing companies are union, many of the companies specializing in PLC's and many of the fire alarm companies are union as well


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

We're all _somewhat _programmed to think bigger is better , and in cases of _volume_ it is true larger shops or locals can man big jobs well. 

To analogize on that, we don't go to HD for _specialty_ items

~CS~


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

kg7879 said:


> It goes both ways. If you were to put a poll up and ask if Union electricians are lazy and entitled i bet 90% of the non union guys would say hell yes. If you put up a poll for Union guys to vote whether non union craftsmanship was inferior you would probably have the same outcome as above. Half truths and down right lies prevail on both sides. I think the only real issue the IBEW should have with non union contractors is the racing to the bottom which hurts everybody in this trade.


. The contractor I worked for was an anomaly in the sense of pay scale . In the pre union days , we got the whatever the rate was in the local we were working in . This was even more than the local guys saw , because there were no dues contributions taken out . I wouldn't consider that a race to the bottom , lol ? I just don't like the brainwashing that takes place with these apprentices and think it's very bad for the future of the IBEW , in general .


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Black Dog said:


> They're over selling the union to these kids, depending on what state you are working in, the training in the non-union shop is just as good.


Just a bit of disagreement here on the training.
No one can deny that the union apprenticeship is top notch, gold standard and second to none out there since day one and I don't know of anything even close.

Second, you have all of this training, put in the hours, study the materials and after five long hard years, if you don't have to repeat a year, you achieve journeyman status.
Here is the problem. 
The term "journeyman" is not universal. Some people live in areas where such titles do not exist with in the city, county or state so, it how does one become a journeyman there?
Some place will issue anyone a journeyman card with just a couple of years of experience and pass a simple test.

Top all of that off with people willing to work for less pay and benefits and declaring themselves "journeymen" thinking they have the same knowledge and experience you sacrificed to achieve.

This is the perspective as I know it. 
I cannot say that I believe it to be true %100 of the time or even %50 of the time.
Exceptions are on both sides but, some things cannot be denied.

Not all Harvard educated dentists are super elite
Not all New Deli educated dentists are hacks

But, which would you choose?
Would you only consider the price, or factor in the training?


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

ampman said:


> We're they unorganized to begin with


 who , the ones who had a hard time wiring a 3 - way ? No , he was a union apprentice from day one , somehow made it through the program , wound up on a job I was running , and it was pretty scary to see what he didn't know ! Nice guy , but just didn't have it . I think he's doing something else now ?


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

I just think good quality work should be praised , no matter which side you're on . On the flip side , hack work shouldn't be tolerated either from either side . I just don't always assume when I see a good installation , that it was done by a union contractor , when I know plenty of open shops can do the same caliber work .


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

drumnut08 said:


> I've been in the trade 22 years . About half of that time was spent with a very large non- union contractor . All commercial / industrial / transit / and communication work . He organized at the mid point of my career there and most of the " shop " guys were put into surrounding locals . If you were already a journeyman , you transferred over as a journeyman . If you were an apprentice , they bumped you back to first year . So , the type of work stays the same for a while and jobs pulled from the hall as needed . There really weren't too many changes except one that I still hear to this day , and it couldn't be farther from the truth in most cases . A girl in my local posted some pictures of observed electrical work somewhere over the weekend . I'm guilty of this too , I think we all are ? It was some not so nice looking exposed conduit work . It automatically turned into " that looks like a typical rat / scab outfit , because none of those guys know what they're doing " ! Not only , is this not true , it's offensive as hell to any non union guy who knows his / her **** ! The work I did and other guys for this company in our ore union days was second to none , and often a lot better than some union installations I've seen since . These young kids coming through the program are being taught this and it's a damn disgrace ! The best and worst work on both sides of this divide , but a non union guy is still inferior ? That theory may have been true years ago , but sure isn't now . Some of the biggest EC 's out there are non - union , and are doing just fine ! This kind of thinking is unfortunately alive and well in the IBEW , and will be it's ultimate demise . Some of the absolute dumbest electricians I've ever met were card holding members making the same as me , as I have to draw out how a 3-way switch works ? So much for the superior training ? In not union bashing , but this up and coming generation is being fed a bunch of info that isn't true , and isn't fair ! Go ahead let it fly , You should probably just shelve your ticket.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

Just sheve your ticke5. It'll be OK.


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## kg7879 (Feb 3, 2014)

drumnut08 said:


> who , the ones who had a hard time wiring a 3 - way ? No , he was a union apprentice from day one , somehow made it through the program , wound up on a job I was running , and it was pretty scary to see what he didn't know ! Nice guy , but just didn't have it . I think he's doing something else now ?


Did he want to learn? If he did and you and other guys didn't want to help him then that pisses me off. When guys put down other guys for lack of knowledge and experience it hurts this whole trade.

There is stuff I have never done in this trade that I should of been trained on or exposed too. I haven't got the opportunity yet. I am a bit nervous that I will come across some a**hole foreman who will lay me off for my lack of knowledge or that it will take me a little more time because I have never done the task before.

Sorry I am not trying to attack you. I have seen too many good guys get laid off because lack of knowledge not lack of effort.


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

kg7879 said:


> Sorry I am not trying to attack you. I have seen too many good guys get laid off because lack of knowledge not lack of effort.


In 43 years I have only seen men laid off because a lack of work I cannot think of a case where someone that was willing to work was let got for a lack of knowledge. Lazy F*CKs let go yes, motivated men NOPE. Because there is very little we do that a motivated electrician cannot learn in short order.

And in general construction, if you have been at it more than 12 months and can't figure it out, time to become a plumber.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

drumnut08 said:


> I just think good quality work should be praised , no matter which side you're on . On the flip side , hack work shouldn't be tolerated either from either side . I just don't always assume when I see a good installation , that it was done by a union contractor , when I know plenty of open shops can do the same caliber work .


Well it's just_ not_ a meritocracy Drummer

The best don't always rise like cream to the top

i mean..... look who's in the WH.....

~CS~


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

wendon said:


> Probably the biggest drawback I see with the union (as long as they leave the non-union guys alone) is that it's a lot harder for them to get rid of the dead wood. When I used to work for someone else, (non-union) I had a number of different guys working under me and it's very maddening to end up doing about 75% of the work and they still draw a paycheck. At least there, if it got bad enough, they were sent down the road.


Maybe long ago but, ever since I have been in the trade, one man lay-offs were not uncommon. Some were sent to jobs that were laying off. 
I haven't seen anything close to that. If you don't work, the guys will make your life a living hell. 
Those old stories linger a long time and never seem to die.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

drumnut08 said:


> who , the ones who had a hard time wiring a 3 - way ? No , he was a union apprentice from day one , somehow made it through the program , wound up on a job I was running , and it was pretty scary to see what he didn't know ! Nice guy , but just didn't have it . I think he's doing something else now ?


We usually pull a separate color for travelers. Do that for a couple of decades and then walk into a house with only black white and red wire and you are kinda screwed unless you know how the person wired it.

I find plenty of mis wired three ways and I think of how happy I am to be able to fix it, not so much about who wired it wrong. There are plenty of complicated situations in our work. I don't think a mis-wired 3-way is a true measurement of competency.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

I'll concede the ibew apprenticeship is top notch Jrannis, only because i know enough, worked with enough

But it's a point in time, just like i was real hot on the '84 NEC

there's a lot of life that's happened since then, to every sparky

~CS~


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## kg7879 (Feb 3, 2014)

Bad Electrician said:


> In 43 years I have only seen men laid off because a lack of work I cannot think of a case where someone that was willing to work was let got for a lack of knowledge. Lazy F*CKs let go yes, motivated men NOPE. Because there is very little we do that a motivated electrician cannot learn in short order.
> 
> And in general construction, if you have been at it more than 12 months and can't figure it out, time to become a plumber.


It happens all the time around here. Guys go through the apprenticeship and bend conduit the whole time. I know a guy who did nothing but fire putty for two years. Another guy only did residential the whole time.

Typically my local only does large projects where you are assigned to the lighting crew, or fa crew and so on. The apprentices never get a well rounded experience unless you get to work for the smaller shops.

Also, to say that if you can't figure this trade out in 12 months is arrogant.


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

jrannis said:


> Just a bit of disagreement here on the training.
> No one can deny that the union apprenticeship is top notch, gold standard and second to none out there since day one and I don't know of anything even close.
> 
> Second, you have all of this training, put in the hours, study the materials and after five long hard years, if you don't have to repeat a year, you achieve journeyman status.
> ...


I agree, in many states, the training is not there and the occupation of electrician has not been professionalized.

In this state it is a profession however, in the non-union sector, the apprentice must do 4 years of schooling and have 8,000 hours in the field and prove it before you can take the journeymen electricians exam, those of us who did the time and schooling for the most part had to pay the full tab too.

Some of the big electrical firms send their men to school and pay for it as well.

The state requires us to get the same training as the union does, so there is no free ride here, the same can be said about the other New England states except for Vermont JK Stevie :laughing:

Also each state has a Master Electricians license and to get that you must go to school and pass the exams, then after holding the journeyman license you can sit for the master exam.

So in some states the non union training is at the same level as the union.

Anyhow my reply that you were replying to, is about how the union kids are being taught to look down their nose at the non union guys, calling them rats and scabs and other crap.

This type of chit makes what would otherwise be a great professional organization for electricians, look like overpaid low life trash, who do not appreciate that they are in an exclusive club that all non union guys are locked out of.

To many of them think that I have no business being an electrician, funny because I've been working in the field longer than they have been alive:laughing: 

They should be thrilled and humbled that they found a way to get into the IBEW , most of us are locked out forever.


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

kg7879 said:


> It happens all the time around here. Guys go through the apprenticeship and bend conduit the whole time. I know a guy who did nothing but fire putty for two years. Another guy only did residential the whole time.
> 
> Typically my local only does large projects where you are assigned to the lighting crew, or fa crew and so on. The apprentices never get a well rounded experience unless you get to work for the smaller shops.
> 
> Also, to say that if you can't figure this trade out in 12 months is arrogant.


Here apprentices move companies regularly. And if someone cannot figure out the mechanics behind what they are doing after 12 months you have picked the wrong trade. Not arrogance, experience from years of hiring people, years of doing almost all aspects of the trade without formal training. Get a book and read. And today with the internet and a motivated electrician they should be able to get through just about anything in GENERAL CONSTRUCTION.

What we do is not all that complicated.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

I just wish someone would take these kids aside , and teach them some history....

~CS~


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

chicken steve said:


> I just wish someone would take these kids aside , and teach them some history....
> 
> ~CS~


Most can't tell you which happened first WWI or WWII, Revolution or Civil


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Yet another union bashing thread. Refreshing.

"Oh, I'm not bashing, I'm blah blah blah."

Simple truth, if you bash unions you are bashing workers, if you bash workers you erode your own conditions. 

So go ahead, help the money men beat you down, make it easier for them to treat you like cheap disposable labor. 

Every 'anti-union' story has a non union counterpart. So they get us to rip each other apart while they watch, amused, counting their extra profits.

Enjoy.


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## EB Electric (Feb 8, 2013)

I'm a non union apprentice, I have to laugh when I read all the union die hards posting on here. I guess scab's like me are destroying the industry by doing our jobs. It makes me chuckle when our non union company gets hired by the union to do work which they have attempted and screwed up miserably or just do not have the tools or the know how. A couple of unionized guys made a big stink and insisted one of our jman buy the unionized guys coffee and donuts. These guys were dead serious they refused to work unless 'the scab' bought them and the crew coffee and donuts. The jman called our supervisor to let him know he would be leaving site and that is exactly what he did. They called and begged him to come back since they needed to power on. He did not return for 5 days until the head electrical supervisor from the union sent him a written apology. When he went back they had coffee and donuts waiting for him. LOL. We are all just pawns in this game together, who cares what side of the street you're on, put your head down go to work and spend time worrying about the more important parts of life like family and what kind of beer is in the fridge! :thumbup:


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## kg7879 (Feb 3, 2014)

EB Electric said:


> I'm a non union apprentice, I have to laugh when I read all the union die hards posting on here. I guess scab's like me are destroying the industry by doing our jobs. It makes me chuckle when our non union company gets hired by the union to do work which they have attempted and screwed up miserably or just do not have the tools or the know how. A couple of unionized guys made a big stink and insisted one of our jman buy the unionized guys coffee and donuts. These guys were dead serious they refused to work unless 'the scab' bought them and the crew coffee and donuts. The jman called our supervisor to let him know he would be leaving site and that is exactly what he did. They called and begged him to come back since they needed to power on. He did not return for 5 days until the head electrical supervisor from the union sent him a written apology. When he went back they had coffee and donuts waiting for him. LOL. We are all just pawns in this game together, who cares what side of the street you're on, put your head down go to work and spend time worrying about the more important parts of life like family and what kind of beer is in the fridge! :thumbup:


You must be so proud.:thumbup:


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## 51360 (Jun 9, 2014)

EB Electric said:


> I'm a non union apprentice, I have to laugh when I read all the union die hards posting on here. I guess scab's like me are destroying the industry by doing our jobs. It makes me chuckle when our non union company gets hired by the union to do work which they have attempted and screwed up miserably or just do not have the tools or the know how. A couple of unionized guys made a big stink and insisted one of our jman buy the unionized guys coffee and donuts. These guys were dead serious they refused to work unless 'the scab' bought them and the crew coffee and donuts. The jman called our supervisor to let him know he would be leaving site and that is exactly what he did. They called and begged him to come back since they needed to power on. He did not return for 5 days until the head electrical supervisor from the union sent him a written apology. When he went back they had coffee and donuts waiting for him. LOL. We are all just pawns in this game together, who cares what side of the street you're on, put your head down go to work and spend time worrying about the more important parts of life like family and what kind of beer is in the fridge! :thumbup:


You are young and have a lot to learn! I don't believe your bull**** story for one minute! 

Thanks, Borgi


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

Borgi said:


> You are young and have a lot to learn! I don't believe your bull**** story for one minute!
> 
> Thanks, Borgi


I believe it, I am missing five front teeth to prove it too


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## 51360 (Jun 9, 2014)

Black Dog said:


> I believe it, I am missing five front teeth to prove it too


Explain!  I am not knowing what you are saying!?

Thanks, Botgi


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## Canadian sparky (Sep 19, 2011)

I call bs on this one..been part of 353 for a number of years and have never ever seen or heard of bs like that..I've been on huge union jobs here and have seen guys start on Monday and get smoked by Thursday..union or not if you don't produce you are given your papers...


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

Borgi said:


> Explain!  I am not knowing what you are saying!?
> 
> Thanks, Botgi


May 1977 I was done with High school, My Father said go down the 103 hall and join up!

So I did just that by myself, I was 17 and had the whole world before me.

I walked in there and found the Boss' A fat bald F-ck!, he was just a pissa big shot.

I asked him if he could help me get to work as an electricians helper, He said who are you! taking a big puff of his cigar, so I told him my name and told him I want to be an electrician,,,,,He said listen KID who do you Know? I said no one.

He said, You've got a lotta balls coming here by yourself and we will get rid of the nerve for you,,I said WHAT?:blink: he snapped his fingers and the thuggery walked into the room, one of them about 30 years old 6' 5" grabbed me by the hair and slammed my head into the desk, I took a swing and nailed his big ass buddy who was trying to jump in and stop me from defending my self, a few more thugs came in and beat the ever living hell out of me, I woke up in the back seat of my 1971 Chevy impala, in a tow yard where a mechanic was under the hood of my car stealing parts So I walked out of there and, called some friends down so I could get my car out, I went home and MY father went there and took up the fight with his buddy's, he came back just as beat up, and said he will help me get a job but not in the union, those guys are bad news and he said he was sorry because he did not know they were like that. back then this state was run by bad news people and no one could beat them in the courts.


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## FrunkSlammer (Aug 31, 2013)

Union companies around here don't seem to invest in training for resi home automation, so I wind up working with some union guys. They're always nice, I like them. They do like to talk and don't seem to get a heck of a lot accomplished in a day, but their work is top notch and they know their stuff and like to joke around. 

Plus my wife is a unionized government employee.. she used to be a manager though, so she pretty much hates the union she has now re-joined. :laughing: But the nurses union here is STRRRRONG and has a fantastic collective agreement and treats our family well.









*Rah Rah GOOOOO UNIONS!*


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

eejack said:


> Yet another union bashing thread. Refreshing.
> 
> "Oh, I'm not bashing, I'm blah blah blah."
> 
> ...


Is that the story...... 









~CS~


----------



## Spunk#7 (Nov 30, 2012)

Repeal NAFTA!!!!!!


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

EB Electric said:


> I go for coffee! :thumbup:


Pretty much sums it up.:thumbsup:


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

Spunk#7 said:


> Repeal NAFTA!!!!!!


That boat already sailed and the Titanic is at the bottom of the ocean, not sure it can be raised at this point.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Here's a union member that gets it

:thumbsup:

~CS~


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Bad Electrician said:


> That boat already sailed and the Titanic is at the bottom of the ocean, not sure it can be raised at this point.


Congress would fly right on by even if it were to be seen Bad one.....

~CS~


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## 51360 (Jun 9, 2014)

Black Dog said:


> May 1977 I was done with High school, My Father said go down the 103 hall and join up!
> 
> So I did just that by myself, I was 17 and had the whole world before me.
> 
> ...


Well, that is a good story, and I am all for a good story!  But that is absolute *Bull!*

I don't have a problem with tradesman making a choice between Union or non-Union, but I don't support unsubstantiated garbage like that! 

Thanks, Borgi


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

_Now now_ Borgi....if you've read the Black one & his _nom de plumes_ for a while, it's rather evident he's had his share of lumps in life.....:whistling2:

~CS~


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## 51360 (Jun 9, 2014)

I have had my issues with Unions, especially local 424 Alberta, in district one for you Americans.

I would like to see Canadians split from the IBEW and end the Ed Hill influence, but I still believe organized labour is the way to go. :thumbsup:

But, you are allowed your opinions, as long as you acknowledge others have one too! :laughing:

Thanks, Borgi


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

So you'd be just the *C*anadian*BEW * Borgi?

wouldn't that diminish the collective _'voice'_ you have now?

~CS~


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## 51360 (Jun 9, 2014)

chicken steve said:


> So you'd be just the *C*anadian*BEW * Borgi?
> 
> wouldn't that diminish the collective _'voice'_ you have now?
> 
> ~CS~


No, Canadians need a voice not connected to Ed Hill, who is a thief! 

He blamed everything on his secretary girlfriend, but he is a f...ing thief. Nobody in Canada wants that asshole associated with Union electricians! 

Not sure why Americans want him either, but, I digress! 

Thanks, Borgi


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## kg7879 (Feb 3, 2014)

I agree I would like to see Ed hill go. His organizing for the sake of organizing haven't done any favors for my local.


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## 51360 (Jun 9, 2014)

kg7879 said:


> I agree I would like to see Ed hill go. His organizing for the sake of organizing haven't done any favors for my local.


I love your American spelling! I am sure you think us Canucks are crazy!

But, back to topic. Ed Hill promotes concession bargaining, sucking **** I call it, to get as many members as possible! My ex BA/BM sold local 424 down the river based on Ed's influence. I know that for a fact! 

I am strong labour, but guys like Ed Hill, ( ****ing thief ), don't help our movement at all!

Thanks, Borgi


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## mr hands (Sep 15, 2013)

Now for the most serious subject ever to impact the IBEW......

The old farts are retiring. The predominate membership is old as dirt.

WTF is the plan??? I am not going to work to pay some guy's retirement, who at the core of his identity, is a lazy mofo. Not when the retirement is going to be bone dry by the time I am ready to collect.

I want my money now!!!! Not in 2030.


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

mr hands said:


> *I want my money now!!!! Not in 2030*.



That is not what you signed up for, One for all, all for one, that the retirement was mismanaged is the fault of members not paying at tenting and screaming loud enough to be heard.

Just a thought not an argument.



> ut, back to topic. Ed Hill promotes concession bargaining, sucking **** *I call it, to get as many members as possible!* My ex BA/BM sold local 424 down the river based on Ed's influence. I know that for a fact!


I could be wrong but shouldn't the union be looking out for all electricians and the more members in the IBEW the better it is for electricians as a whole.

Our local has steadily grown since I have been a member, not everybody agrees with the methods utilized to get new members but there will always be differing opinions.

As a whole unions in the private sector are shrinking, any methods utilized to bolster membership may take a while to pay off and in the mean time there may be some suffering, but overall if it is for the good of the members in the long run?


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## ampman66 (Dec 5, 2012)

The biggest problem with Ed Hill's organize everybody approach is that not every non-union electrician should be organized.
We have benefitted from some great talent from the non-union sector, but have suffered also by accepting so-called electricians who are better suited to flipping burgers at Mickey Ds.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

mr hands said:


> Now for the most serious subject ever to impact the IBEW......
> 
> The old farts are retiring. The predominate membership is old as dirt.
> 
> ...


Not union, but the boomers are going to phuck we Gen X and Gen Y'ers 6 ways to Sunday with retirement, insurance and whatnot. God damn horny GIs coming back from dubya dubya 2 just had to go and ruin it for generations to come. Want to fix the problem? Throw out the condoms and birth control pills and get to copulating if you want to retire. 3 kids should be a good start. :laughing:


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

ampman66 said:


> The biggest problem with Ed Hill's organize everybody approach is that not every non-union electrician should be organized.
> We have benefitted from some great talent from the non-union sector, but have suffered also by accepting so-called electricians who are better suited to flipping burgers at Mickey Ds.


 
For every open shop hack I am sure on a percentage basis you can find a union boob. I have worked with many on both sides of the fence, EVERYONE deserves a chance. 

If they come in and are worthless weed them out. But blocking open shop members as was the policy in the past only resulted in some really bitter open shop men.

The largest open shop contractor in our area tried to sign up in the early 50's and was denied. Now he is the unions biggest competitor.


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## ampman66 (Dec 5, 2012)

Bad Electrician said:


> For every open shop hack I am sure on a percentage basis you can find a union boob. I have worked with many on both sides of the fence, EVERYONE deserves a chance.
> 
> If they come in and are worthless weed them out. But blocking open shop members as was the policy in the past only resulted in some really bitter open shop men.


I agree with you.
Did you read the part of my post where I said that we have benefitted from non-union talent, or did you skip that part??
Weeding them out is where we fall short.
The International thinks that as long as members are paying their dues, then they are successful, no matter how poor their work is.
And there are plenty of union slugs out there who should be flipping burgers too, no doubt. They should be weeded out as well.


----------



## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

ampman66 said:


> I agree with you.
> Did you read the part of my post where I said that we have benefitted from non-union talent, or did you skip that part??
> Weeding them out is where we fall short.
> The International thinks that as long as members are paying their dues, then they are successful, no matter how poor their work is.


I read you whole post, I was not trashing what you said I just wanted to add that there are marginal electricians everywhere and on large jobs they are put to work doing marginal work. Small to medium jobs they are given the boot.

My close friend from high school turned out to be a real slacker, lazy bum and took advantage of people. We called hi ma F*CKING BUM, his mother called him a free sprit. 

There will always be free sprits in any work force.


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## kg7879 (Feb 3, 2014)

Ed Hill's organizing for the sake of organizing has really hurt the local I am in.

We have a 3.5% state unemployment rate but our local has a %15 unemployment rate. Why? Because we were told by the IO that we needed to increase our membership. Never mind the fact that the contractor base didn't increase when our membership increased.


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## ampman66 (Dec 5, 2012)

Bad Electrician said:


> I read you whole post, I was not trashing what you said I just wanted to add that there are marginal electricians everywhere and on large jobs they are put to work doing marginal work. Small to medium jobs they are given the boot.


 That is exactly right.:thumbsup:


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

kg7879 said:


> Ed Hill's organizing for the sake of organizing has really hurt the local I am in.
> 
> We have a 3.5% state unemployment rate but our local has a %15 unemployment rate. Why? Because we were told by the IO that we needed to increase our membership. Never mind the fact that the contractor base didn't increase when our membership increased.


I am by no means an expert on this and it appears many so called experts are not experts.

I think growing membership could be a positive idea in the long run, but the local has to go about this slow and sign open shops and make it easy for members to start their own union shops. 

To just sign members in-mass seems like the wrong approach unless you can starve the open shops of men.


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## 51360 (Jun 9, 2014)

Let me clear, and as polite as I can be:

All of you have great points regarding non-Union, Union and Ed Hill's organizing tactics, BUT that is not the issue I have with Ed Hill.



> He is a know thief, con artist, and outright criminal, not worthy of respect from our trade! He is hurting the entire trade, Union and non-Union, simply by associating with him!


I know that sounds harsh, but he is deserving of such critism. Do the research as I have, don't trust me or anyone else, then make an informed decision!

Thanks, Borgi


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## 51360 (Jun 9, 2014)

drumnut08 said:


> I've been in the trade 22 years . About half of that time was spent with a very large non- union contractor . All commercial / industrial / transit / and communication work . He organized at the mid point of my career there and most of the " shop " guys were put into surrounding locals . If you were already a journeyman , you transferred over as a journeyman . If you were an apprentice , they bumped you back to first year . So , the type of work stays the same for a while and jobs pulled from the hall as needed . There really weren't too many changes except one that I still hear to this day , and it couldn't be farther from the truth in most cases . A girl in my local posted some pictures of observed electrical work somewhere over the weekend . I'm guilty of this too , I think we all are ? It was some not so nice looking exposed conduit work . It automatically turned into* " that looks like a typical rat / scab outfit , because none of those guys know what they're doing " ! Not only , is this not true , it's offensive as hell to any non union guy who knows his / her **** ! *The work I did and other guys for this company in our ore union days was second to none , and often a lot better than some union installations I've seen since . These young kids coming through the program are being taught this and it's a damn disgrace ! The best and worst work on both sides of this divide , but a non union guy is still inferior ? That theory may have been true years ago , but sure isn't now . Some of the biggest EC 's out there are non - union , and are doing just fine ! This kind of thinking is unfortunately alive and well in the IBEW , and will be it's ultimate demise . Some of the absolute dumbest electricians I've ever met were card holding members making the same as me , as I have to draw out how a 3-way switch works ? So much for the superior training ?* In not union bashing , but this up and coming generation is being fed a bunch of info that isn't true , and isn't fair !* Go ahead let it fly , lol !


Sorry, back to topic! 

I agree, the term tossed around here is similar. Scabby work! They seem to have forgotten, or have never been taught, the meaning of the word "Scab"! 

I have reminded apprentices that bad workmanship has nothing to do with someone crossing a picket line! "Well, you know what I mean" is often the reply. " No, actually I don't! Please enlighten me " I say. :laughing:

Then I explain it to them, because I am old enough to have been on picket lines, and have turned around and went home many of times when I've encountered one. Ours or not, when non-Union as well.

Definitely plenty of bad bullchit info out there!

Thanks, Borgi


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

I've had to cross picket lines to get to work in the past

it's not a comfortable thing

~CS~


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

chicken steve said:


> I've had to cross picket lines to get to work in the past
> 
> it's not a comfortable thing
> 
> ~CS~


Was your cast knee to ankle or hip to ankle


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

I remained unscathed Badone. 

But it's the same old story of a collective having their egos lead their existence instead of their true merit.

Easy to do, and very much human nature for us to want to pull ourselves up by pulling others down.


~CS~


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## 51360 (Jun 9, 2014)

chicken steve said:


> I've had to cross picket lines to get to work in the past
> 
> it's not a comfortable thing
> 
> ~CS~


Were you a replacement worker? Or did you have a legitimate reason, which there are few good ones, to cross someone's picket line to get to work?

Thanks, Borgi


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

The particular incident involved revealing to the local biz community that they were about to be host to the first Walmart in Vermont Borgi. They (walmart) have their own cookie cutter crews, but in this instance pulled a fast one with a reno.

Even i _(lead Jman @ the time)_ did not know anything past _'dept store' _written on the prints

Long story short, the protesting biz's are now all gone, wallyworld reigning supreme over the local economy

In so many respects, bigger isn't always better

~CS~


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## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

Borgi said:


> Were you a replacement worker? Or did you have a legitimate reason, which there are few good ones, to cross someone's picket line to get to work?
> 
> Thanks, Borgi


Why would a non-union worker need a "legitimate reason" to cross a union picket line? I have bills to pay and don't have time to waste playing games with some union's tantrum. I don't go to work, I don't get paid. That's about as legitimate as it gets, imo.

I have crossed picket lines in the past and would again in the future without a second thought. I have also been on jobs that used a 2 gate system.


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## 51360 (Jun 9, 2014)

EBFD6 said:


> Why would a non-union worker need a "legitimate reason" to cross a union picket line? I have bills to pay and don't have time to waste playing games with some union's tantrum. I don't go to work, I don't get paid. That's about as legitimate as it gets, imo.
> 
> I have crossed picket lines in the past and would again in the future without a second thought. I have also been on jobs that used a 2 gate system.





> In not union bashing , but this up and coming generation is being fed a bunch of info that isn't true , and isn't fair ! Go ahead let it fly , lol !


Pretty selfish! As long as you have a hut tub on the deck, who cares! Right! Those union workers have families to feed too! If it wasn't for the labour/labor movement you wouldn't be earning a living wage!

Since this thread is NOT bashing Unions, let me add this:

What you wouldn't give a second thought to, that doesn't surprise me!  Is exactly where the term " *scabby rat bastard* " came from! :laughing:

Thanks, Borgi


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

Borgi said:


> Pretty selfish! As long as you have a hut tub on the deck, who cares! Right! Those union workers have families to feed too! If it wasn't for the labour/labor movement you wouldn't be earning a living wage!
> 
> Since this thread is NOT bashing Unions, let me add this:
> 
> ...


It could be considered selfish to stop open shop men from legitimately working when unions have an issue with management 

And that mentality is what has done more to damage anything positive the union does for ALL workers.


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## 51360 (Jun 9, 2014)

Bad Electrician said:


> It could be considered selfish to stop open shop men from legitimately working when unions have an issue with management
> 
> And that mentality is what has done more to damage anything positive the union does for ALL workers.


No union is stopping open shops from working. If you felt you needed to cross a picket line to perform a non Union job, nobody should stop you! Talk to the guys on the line, even the picket captain, they understand bills have to be paid! To not give it a second thought based on crap is wrong!

I have never heard of anyone losing there job because they refused to cross a picket line!  I have done it all my life, I have never missed a meal! That is a cop out, right up there with, " I have to feed my family ", bull****! Are you feeding your family with that box of beer? I doubt it! :laughing:

Unions don't interfere with non Union negotiations, so out of respect, non Union should do the same.

While Union and non Union workers are arguing amongst themselves, greedy employers laugh all the way to the bank. Get over yourselves, both sides, and work together, not apart! 

Thanks, Borgi


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Borgi said:


> Since this thread is NOT bashing Unions, let me add this:
> 
> What you wouldn't give a second thought to, that doesn't surprise me!  Is exactly where the term " *scabby rat bastard* " came from! :laughing:
> 
> Thanks, Borgi


No..... it's being a *capitalist *Borgi. 

A true capitalist _only_ cares about the bottom line, which is what runs my country right now

Yet when confronted by the loss to one of said capitalists , the looser almost always picks apart the _integrity _of those they lost out to

the old _*I'm better than you *_ canard

It's not just a Union thing, you can read into almost every post where someone tries to take the moral high ground here, rather sad they've not the introspect or awareness to realize they put themselves down as much as they do being all buttsore

~CS~


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## 51360 (Jun 9, 2014)

chicken steve said:


> No..... it's being a *capitalist *Borgi.
> 
> A true capitalist _only_ cares about the bottom line, which is what runs my country right now
> 
> ...


I agree to a point! CS!

I am doing my best not to bash anyone, it only hurts the trade, but sometimes "you have to stand for something, or you'll fall for anything" :laughing:

Seriously though, I am tired of seeing all the uniformed members here beeking off about what they know nothing about!

As you mentioned, the capitalists are the ones to be held accountable, and as I said earlier, they laugh when they see the working man preoccupied with trivial Union, non Union squabbles!

I respect non Union choices, I only ask that you respect mine! 

Thanks, Borgi


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## Staples1 (Oct 30, 2013)

What do u think soc security is. Suppose to b dry by 2034


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Borgi said:


> I agree to a point! CS!
> 
> I am doing my best not to bash anyone, it only hurts the trade, but sometimes "you have to stand for something, or you'll fall for anything" :laughing:


That would be _collectivism_

I don't think people realize the power it can wield , or the history of it Borgi

And there lies the conundrum , being _collectivism_ flys in the face of _capitalism_

The capitalists have actively been trying to undermine collectivist movements forever are making their biggest comeback since the guilded age

And yeah, we can wrap SS into that scheme too Staples










~CS~


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## mr hands (Sep 15, 2013)

EBFD6 said:


> I have crossed picket lines in the past and would again in the future without a second thought. I have also been on jobs that used a 2 gate system.


You sir are bold. So are the men who follow you home.


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## mr hands (Sep 15, 2013)

Craft union is just a contemporary incarnation of the guild.

Look at places historically without such institutions, like the filipines, middle east, south asia, and so on. Electricians are considered equivalent to laborers, many who make less than ten dollars a day.

All you electricians who piss on unions, remember that. Without the brotherhood of the past, you'd be making PEANUTS today. Or more realistically, you'd probably be stabbing your fellow working class brother in the back to make an extra two peanuts a day. That's what yall cut of that cloth are, a waste of good oxygen.


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## fistofbolts (Jan 25, 2014)

Ignorance is bliss I guess. Take the unions away and watch everyone's wages plummet to a dollar or two above minimum wage. Sounds like a grrrrreat idea!


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## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

fistofbolts said:


> Ignorance is bliss I guess. Take the unions away and watch everyone's wages plummet to a dollar or two above minimum wage. Sounds like a grrrrreat idea!


This is the one of the biggest lies going. 

Do you honestly believe that if the union disappears all of us are just going to agree to go to work tomorrow for $10/hr? I certainly wouldn't and I don't know anyone who would. So how are the contractors going to get all of their jobs done? They'll have to pay enough to get guys to be willing to work for them. That's how the free market works. 

Contractors would still have jobs that need to be done, and would still need qualified electricians to do those jobs. Those qualified guys would demand a certain wage and the contractors would have to pay it in order to keep those guys happy. If their competition pays more, well guess who gets the guys to do the work. This is basically how non-union contractors operate now. They have to compete with each other to keep employees. If someone wants to pay cheap and treat his guys like crap, he'll be stuck with bottom of the barrel workers, which in turn will lead to hack work, which leads to lost customers, which leads to going out of business. To be successful, a contractor needs to pay top dollar to attract top talent. The market takes care of itself and doesn't need the union. 

The union is far from being as important as you think it is. The union is dying, thankfully.


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## ampman (Apr 2, 2009)

mr hands said:


> Craft union is just a contemporary incarnation of the guild. Look at places historically without such institutions, like the filipines, middle east, south asia, and so on. Electricians are considered equivalent to laborers, many who make less than ten dollars a day. All you electricians who piss on unions, remember that. Without the brotherhood of the past, you'd be making PEANUTS today. Or more realistically, you'd probably be stabbing your fellow working class brother in the back to make an extra two peanuts a day. That's what yall cut of that cloth are, a waste of good oxygen.


I vote this for biggest bull**** post of the year


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## kg7879 (Feb 3, 2014)

EBFD6 said:


> This is the one of the biggest lies going.
> 
> Do you honestly believe that if the union disappears all of us are just going to agree to go to work tomorrow for $10/hr? I certainly wouldn't and I don't know anyone who would. So how are the contractors going to get all of their jobs done? They'll have to pay enough to get guys to be willing to work for them. That's how the free market works.
> 
> ...


I do not think a race to the bottom would happen tomorrow if the union disappeared but the industry wages would drop over time. 

Whether non union guys like to admit it or not the IBEW has set the standard for licensing, safety and education. The IBEW continually fights legislators on the state level who want to relax licensing laws and education standards. 

Of course if licensing and education standards go out the window so would top wages because the market would be flooded with more "electricians" because there would less barriers to get into the trade.

In the end supply and demand of the total electrician labor pool is what really causes wages to rise or fall, not talented electricians. If the union died the non union contractors would have more contractors competing for customers that the former union shops never really tried to go after. This would cause a downward pressure on wages to stay competitive.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

mr hands said:


> Craft union is just a contemporary incarnation of the guild.
> 
> Look at places historically without such institutions, like the filipines, middle east, south asia, and so on. Electricians are considered equivalent to laborers, many who make less than ten dollars a day.
> 
> All you electricians who piss on unions, remember that. Without the brotherhood of the past, you'd be making PEANUTS today. Or more realistically, you'd probably be stabbing your fellow working class brother in the back to make an extra two peanuts a day. That's what yall cut of that cloth are, a waste of good oxygen.


Pride goes before the fall ....


~CS~


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## 51360 (Jun 9, 2014)

mr hands said:


> Craft union is just a contemporary incarnation of the guild.
> 
> Look at places historically without such institutions, like the filipines, middle east, south asia, and so on. Electricians are considered equivalent to laborers, many who make less than ten dollars a day.
> 
> All you electricians who piss on unions, remember that. Without the brotherhood of the past, you'd be making PEANUTS today. Or more realistically, you'd probably be stabbing your fellow working class brother in the back to make an extra two peanuts a day. That's what yall cut of that cloth are, a waste of good oxygen.


I vote this to be one of the most honest, sincere, and educational posts I have seen on this site with regard to organized labour/labor!

Problem is, the members apposed to this truth, stubbornly refuse to acknowledge the facts available to them, if they simply read a history book. 

You can lead an educated man/women to the library, but you can't make them read! :laughing:

Thanks, Borgi


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## Batfink (Jul 9, 2014)

A book is just one persons view or based on the information available to that person at that time. I can write a book on the price of cabbage and how it affects the world, doesn't mean I know the first thing about it or that there won't be 30 other books with another view on the subject. I am yet to read a book that didn't have the authors biased opinion mixed in with the facts.


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## ampman (Apr 2, 2009)

Borgi said:


> I vote this to be one of the most honest, sincere, and educational posts I have seen on this site with regard to organized labour/labor! Problem is, the members apposed to this truth, stubbornly refuse to acknowledge the facts available to them, if they simply read a history book.  You can lead an educated man/women to the library, but you can't make them read! :laughing: Thanks, Borgi


So let me get this right no union = the end of the world 
No union = stabbing people in the back for peanuts 
Not union = waste of good oxygen

And you agreed with all that - that's ok most union " brothers " repeat or agree with anything another brother says no mater how asinine


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## kg7879 (Feb 3, 2014)

ampman said:


> So let me get this right no union = the end of the world
> No union = stabbing people in the back for peanuts
> Not union = waste of good oxygen
> 
> And you agreed with all that - that's ok most union " brothers " repeat or agree with anything another brother says no mater how asinine


Poor guy got his feelers hurt.


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## Batfink (Jul 9, 2014)

No ones ever made a cent running unions, they do it out of the goodness of their hearts to help their fellow man. They are the greatest not for profit organization around!


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## ampman (Apr 2, 2009)

kg7879 said:


> Poor guy got his feelers hurt.


Feelers What a douche


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## 51360 (Jun 9, 2014)

ampman said:


> So let me get this right no union = the end of the world
> No union = stabbing people in the back for peanuts
> Not union = waste of good oxygen
> 
> And you agreed with all that - that's ok most union " brothers " repeat or agree with anything another brother says no mater how asinine


You make my point exactly! Read the post again, this time take your blinders off, and read!

Thanks, Borgi


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## kg7879 (Feb 3, 2014)

ampman said:


> Feelers What a douche


I can tell you are not an English major. Are you from the south?


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## mr hands (Sep 15, 2013)

So seriously.....

Breaking down the distinctions between how electrical works in the western world, as opposed to the rest of the world...

Middle class edumacated business people are contractors, who hire engineers, who design and do all the technical stuff. They are the boss people. They give the foreman, who is the smartest and most experienced of all the poor douchebags, the authority and a secret bonus. He runs his crew of poor brown people, and they in turn pay him too, to keep their jobs away from other poor brown people. So you got class distinctions, you got the educated white folk, or arab, or whatever cream pedigree you please, then you have the ****** bossman who is some kind of tribal or village leader, then below him is an army of peons.

So basically this model with the rich priveleged, and the *******, is the natural order. We upstanding white western european folk cringe at the thought of inequality, and brought up the middle class. Because we are north men, and all the hereditary morons were frozen out of our stock, more or less equality is required to maintain the social order and prevent revolution. But the morons are making a resurgence, and they are demanding the right to work for less in the name of freedom. The ****** model is predominant in the south, I've been told. Where electricians toil away in dangerous conditions for less than twenty an hour and no bennies. I hope to god it's just the heat killing their brain cells, because I won't stand for that crap up here. I might follow one of those priveleged white folk to their home and share my discomfort. So that's what unions ultimately do, they preserve the peace, by paying me more money, so I am happy, and don't kill any rich folk out of frustration.


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## mr hands (Sep 15, 2013)

Now EBFD69, son, or whatever your name is, you've got your head screwed on backwards.

You see, yall folks are judgemental. So your masters point the finger at unions, the IBEW, and say they are evil because they support the baby killers in congress. Your demographic is awful easy to manipulate, so you all wrote off the rest of what unions do as evil too.

But the truth behind it is that unions are democratic, as in, ruled by their membership. If the judgemental had not left the locals to start up their own show, we'd be in a much better spot. For one, the unions wouldn't necessarily support the democraps. For two, we'd have alot more help turning the screws on the slugs. So you see, the problem with unions is you. Because you opted out, the other flavor of re2rdation has festered in us. You see, there is more than one flavor of re2ardation, there is a left flavor, a right flavor, a lazy flavor, a righteous flavor, and so on. When we lost our righteous, judgemental flavor, that let the other flavors turn the soup into big pot of sh1t stew. But, at least the money is good.... :thumbup:


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

EBFD6 said:


> This is the one of the biggest lies going.
> 
> Do you honestly believe that if the union disappears all of us are just going to agree to go to work tomorrow for $10/hr?


It would take more than a day, but yes, your wages would plummet.

When faced with losing your job, you will take less. Non union guys always do.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Yet anywhere we go, we see small EC's making better than U-guys do....:whistling2::thumbup:

~CS~


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

chicken steve said:


> Yet anywhere we go, we see small EC's making better than U-guys do....:whistling2::thumbup:
> 
> ~CS~


And (unfortunately possibly) the percentage of the union share of the market shrinking, unless you are in a government union.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Still i'm a big supporter

They make all the noise

We make all the $$$'s 

:thumbup:

~CS~


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## 51360 (Jun 9, 2014)

chicken steve said:


> Yet anywhere we go, we see small EC's making better than U-guys do....:whistling2::thumbup:
> 
> ~CS~


Thank your local Union for that. Big signatory contractors don't want the small stuff, and the smaller ECs do those jobs better and more efficiently! 

Sounds like a win, win to me! :thumbup:

Thanks, Borgi


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## ampman (Apr 2, 2009)

kg7879 said:


> I can tell you are not an English major. Are you from the south?


Yes I'm from the south are you from the north also you are pretty sharp being able to tell someone's not an English major on an electricians website unions taught you well


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## kg7879 (Feb 3, 2014)

ampman said:


> Yes I'm from the south are you from the north also you are pretty sharp being able to tell someone's not an English major on an electricians website unions taught you well


I was just busting your chops man.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Borgi said:


> Thank your local Union for that. Big signatory contractors don't want the small stuff, and the smaller ECs do those jobs better and more efficiently!
> 
> *Sounds like a win, win to me*! :thumbup:
> 
> Thanks, Borgi


Pretty much

but i have to say all the _spew and ado_ is rather detrimental

let me put it this way....

there are factions that want us blue collars on each other's sh*t Borgi

buying into it is all in _their_ back pocket, not _ours_

~CS~


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## ampman (Apr 2, 2009)

kg7879 said:


> I was just busting your chops man.


]

Ya well you can go and - oh wait never mind then me to


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

chicken steve said:


> Yet anywhere we go, we see small EC's making better than U-guys do....:whistling2::thumbup:
> 
> ~CS~


The reason why I have you on ignore is you just make crap up. 

You might have a case for a small Contractor doing better than a union electrician, meaning the actual owner of the business, the fellow who works night and day, who sweats out making payroll and collections - that guy, that guy should be doing better than a union electrician. I would hope he is doing better...those folks keep the nation running.

However, the guy who works for that guy is not doing better than a union electrician. Not happening. No bargaining power, always someone better, or younger or cheaper or hungrier ( or all of the above ) right around the corner.


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## Batfink (Jul 9, 2014)

eejack said:


> The reason why I have you on ignore is you just make crap up. You might have a case for a small Contractor doing better than a union electrician, meaning the actual owner of the business, the fellow who works night and day, who sweats out making payroll and collections - that guy, that guy should be doing better than a union electrician. I would hope he is doing better...those folks keep the nation running. However, the guy who works for that guy is not doing better than a union electrician. Not happening. No bargaining power, always someone better, or younger or cheaper or hungrier ( or all of the above ) right around the corner.


Absolute BS, my guys are all young family men and women who go home to their families almost every night (some out of town work). Most have been with me for over 7 years, no one has ever been laid off for shortage of work or even sent home early due to a slow day ( I would rather pay them to clean and pay myself less if it happens) 

They all get paid the same rate, which is just a touch under union rate. My company is only as successful as the folks that work for me are. Full benefits, pension plans and bonuses. So for union brainwashed puppets making statements like that shows how far from the real world you are. Yes most union guys do very well but so do non-union, so generalizing is pointless. I have had some useless union guys work for me and some brilliant ones, some have new homes and trucks while others don't have much to show for themselves.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Batfink said:


> Absolute BS....
> 
> They all get paid the same rate, which is just a touch under union rate.


Good for you for being one of the good guys, but...under union rate is not doing better, it is doing well. And, be honest, if there was no union wage for you to pay against - would you be paying what you are paying? In other words, if you had no union competing for your labor, would you be able to pay less, and would you?


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## Batfink (Jul 9, 2014)

Don't flatter your union self, it's not union rate I am competing with, most of my guys are anti union where I am not, just have had several run in with some members. I pay my guys well only because they work hard, safe and smart which our customers understand and will pay more for which in turn makes all of us more money. Several of our largest customers would throw us out if we went union or talk union, it's not like they are afraid to pay for them since we already charge them union rates. 

On another note I have never been unemployed since I started in the trade over 25 years ago, can you say the same? My employees also don't worry about layoffs as I stated before, so yes my guys do make more then a lot of union guys just for the fact that between my customers in two cities can keep us busy non stop.


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## kg7879 (Feb 3, 2014)

Batfink said:


> Don't flatter your union self, it's not union rate I am competing with, most of my guys are anti union where I am not, just have had several run in with some members. I pay my guys well only because they work hard, safe and smart which our customers understand and will pay more for which in turn makes all of us more money. Several of our largest customers would throw us out if we went union or talk union, it's not like they are afraid to pay for them since we already charge them union rates.
> 
> On another note I have never been unemployed since I started in the trade over 25 years ago, can you say the same? My employees also don't worry about layoffs as I stated before, so yes my guys do make more then a lot of union guys just for the fact that between my customers in two cities can keep us busy non stop.


Non union contractor that has a pension? I highly doubt that.


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

kg7879 said:


> Non union contractor that has a pension? I highly doubt that.


 I have a pension lined up. Who the hell wouldn't? If you lay off that kool aid you will see that all the lines you were fed about the other side are lies


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

eejack said:


> The reason why I have you on ignore is you just make crap up. You might have a case for a small Contractor doing better than a union electrician, meaning the actual owner of the business, the fellow who works night and day, who sweats out making payroll and collections - that guy, that guy should be doing better than a union electrician. I would hope he is doing better...those folks keep the nation running. However, the guy who works for that guy is not doing better than a union electrician. Not happening. No bargaining power, always someone better, or younger or cheaper or hungrier ( or all of the above ) right around the corner.


You idiot if you have him on ignore how are you seeing what he said or quoting him ?


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## kg7879 (Feb 3, 2014)

robnj772 said:


> I have a pension lined up. Who the hell wouldn't? If you lay off that kool aid you will see that all the lines you were fed about the other side are lies


Only 12% companies offer an pension. Since most non union contractors are small I can't see them offering pensions. So if you have a pension you are probably a former member who will be drawing a union pension. 

How noble of you, cheddar.


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

kg7879 said:


> Only 12% companies offer an pension. Since most non union contractors are small I can't see them offering pensions. So if you have a pension you are probably a former member who will be drawing a union pension. How noble of you, cheddar.


Oh STFU 

12 percent ? Please... Nice troll, didn't work.

I cashed out my union stuff and invested it my self. I offer a pension plan to my employees along with healthcare .

Next time the pitcher crashes threw your wall and yells" oh yea" say no thanks!


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## kg7879 (Feb 3, 2014)

robnj772 said:


> Oh STFU
> 
> 12 percent ? Please... Nice troll, didn't work.
> 
> ...


Your the one trolling cheddar. You do not offer a pension. I call BS. 

Also enlighten me how working for you would be so much better than being union? What are the lies being told? Everything I have heard about the "other side" is true. I have friends who work on the other side.

Believe me if the other side offered just as good of deal or better, people would be jumping ship.

By the way a 401k is not a pension.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

kg7879 said:


> By the way a 401k is not a pension.


How about scratch off lottery tickets? :thumbsup:


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

kg7879 said:


> Your the one trolling cheddar. You do not offer a pension. I call BS.
> 
> Also enlighten me how working for you would be so much better than being union? What are the lies being told? Everything I have heard about the "other side" is true. I have friends who work on the other side.
> 
> ...


What lies are YOU being told?

It is very funny how you guys are so brainwashed, plenty of non union businesses offer employee pensions and benefits.

There is no union where I am anyway so if you are union you are driving a very long way to go to work.

ZERO union where I am. NONE what so ever.


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## Batfink (Jul 9, 2014)

No union? That means everyone in the area works for minimum wage according to these clowns.


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## 51360 (Jun 9, 2014)

Batfink said:


> Absolute BS, my guys are all young family men and women who go home to their families almost every night (some out of town work). Most have been with me for over 7 years, no one has ever been laid off for shortage of work or even sent home early due to a slow day ( I would rather pay them to clean and pay myself less if it happens)
> 
> They all get paid the same rate, which is just a touch under union rate. My company is only as successful as the folks that work for me are. *Full benefits, pension plans and bonuses.*So for union brainwashed puppets making statements like that shows how far from the real world you are. Yes most union guys do very well but so do non-union, so generalizing is pointless. I have had some useless union guys work for me and some brilliant ones, some have new homes and trucks while others don't have much to show for themselves.


I am from Alberta, and I hope you're telling the truth!

It's my experience that employers in Alberta are not labour friendly. Local 424 is getting weaker by the day, that doesn't help, plus the provincial PCs despise organized labour, except MERIT! I have seen many employment ads from contractors asking potential employees to pay for, ( and have as a condition of employment ), safety courses employers are supposed to pay for. H2S Alive, First Aid, harness training and many others!  in one interview I was asked to bring my cordless drill if successful. :no:

So it very much surprises me that you look after your employees so well!  But, I have been mistaken, ( not wrong ), before. :laughing:

Good for you, and keep up the good work. If I was a younger man, I would seek your company out. Sounds like your company has a lot of merit!

Thanks, Borgi


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## Batfink (Jul 9, 2014)

I won't lie I do prefer applicants that have already taken WHMIS, CSTS and first aid before applying. It's not a cost or time issue it just shows they are motivated and have done something productive with their down time (if applicable) anyone getting into the trades should see the value in getting a head start. I pay for almost any course that is relevant to what we do if an employee is proving himself to be an asset to the company. 

I do find it ironic that union guys say employers should pay for all training and yet they don't take starters themselves, the people that need the most help starting a career. So I am sure that is why a lot of owners are hesitant to pay for starters training because some get it going and head to the hall.


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## kg7879 (Feb 3, 2014)

robnj772 said:


> What lies are YOU being told?
> 
> It is very funny how you guys are so brainwashed, plenty of non union businesses offer employee pensions and benefits.
> 
> ...


I am sure there are non companies that offer pensions but they are not non union electrical contractors.

You see I am willing to listen and look at the other side unlike others.

From talking to friends who work non union and who have worked non union I have a good idea of what it is like on the other side as far as pay, benefits and working conditions.

Not one of my friends makes what I make on a hourly rate. One has no health insurance and the others have health insurance but they have to pay for some of it. None of them have a pension, some of them have 401k's and some of the contractors do a match.

So overall the pay and benefit package is less for my non union friends. I am sure the question now is why haven't I convinced them to go union if it is so great?

Two of them were former union apprentices that got kicked out of the program. They can both get back in now if they wanted to but they do not want to. One of them has so much freedom that he can take a two hour lunch if he wanted to or quit early if he feels like it. He gets paid way less than even a non union JW but he gets a salary. 

The others are just comfortable. They like where they work and like being buddy's with the owner.

The only thing that really brothers me about non union is the unsafe work practices that some shops have. Like working hot, working off the top of ladders, no trench protection, etc. The safety culture is not the same for the most part.


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## 51360 (Jun 9, 2014)

Batfink said:


> I won't lie I do prefer applicants that have already taken WHMIS, CSTS and first aid before applying. It's not a cost or time issue it just shows they are motivated and have done something productive with their down time (if applicable) anyone getting into the trades should see the value in getting a head start. I pay for almost any course that is relevant to what we do if an employee is proving himself to be an asset to the company.
> 
> *I do find it ironic that union guys say employers should pay for all training* and yet they don't take starters themselves, the people that need the most help starting a career. So I am sure that is why a lot of owners are hesitant to pay for starters training because some get it going and head to the hall.


I can't speak to your companies reasoning regarding safety training, but the ones I have dealt with, they are simply not good companies to work for! Some are Union as well, many are MERIT contractors. They won't budge, and neither will I. I have been around long enough to know employment standards and OH&S requirements. Some of these companies coincedently are the *worst abusers of the TFW program.* Without these courses I am considered unskilled.  

Just to be clear, I have taken all these courses several times, but only a few don't expire after 3 years. Paid for by both Union and non Union contractors, never by me. My CSTS and Confined Space Entry and Rescue are still active, WHIMIS is usually site specific, so a company that doesn't think I am serious is just making excuses! 

What's ironic is an accredited safety company in Alberta insisted on all this training as a condition of employment. They expected me to know the Safety Code Act, be certified Group A, and know the current CEC, but ignore OH&S! :laughing:

Who do you turn to in Alberta? I turn to the bottle some days. 

Thanks, Borgi


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## 51360 (Jun 9, 2014)

Batfink said:


> *I won't lie I do prefer applicants that have already taken WHMIS, CSTS and first aid before applying.*It's not a cost or time issue it just shows they are motivated and have done something productive with their down time (if applicable) anyone getting into the trades should see the value in getting a head start. * I pay for almost any course that is relevant to what we do if an employee is proving himself to be an asset to the company.*
> 
> I do find it ironic that union guys say employers should pay for all training and yet they don't take starters themselves, the people that need the most help starting a career. So I am sure that is why a lot of owners are hesitant to pay for starters training because some get it going and head to the hall.


*Occupational Health and Safety is not optional. It's the LAW!*

Thanks, Borgi


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## Batfink (Jul 9, 2014)

Don't think I once said it was optional, nor did I say we don't cover safety courses. Just said those sitting on their ass waiting for work should be more motivated on their own. RELEVANT courses to what we is not just safety, if it is for you then your limiting your goals and and income. I was more referring to drives, plc's, solar, estimating etc. 

I did notice how the only thing you dodged was the part where union guys tell starters to get indentured, get basic courses THEN we will consider taking you, after putting those expenses on non-union. Seems to me if it wasn't for non union companies putting their dimes out there the union would have no apprentices then eventually the union would dry up completely.


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## 51360 (Jun 9, 2014)

Batfink said:


> I won't lie I do prefer applicants that have already taken WHMIS, CSTS and first aid before applying. It's not a cost or time issue it just shows they are motivated and have done something productive with their down time (if applicable)* anyone getting into the trades should see the value in getting a head start.*I pay for almost any course that is relevant to what we do *if an employee is proving himself to be an asset to the company.*
> 
> *I do find it ironic that union guys say employers should pay for all training and yet they don't take starters themselves, the people that need the most help starting a career. So I am sure that is why a lot of owners are hesitant to pay for starters training because some get it going and head to the hall*.


Sure sounds like you are choosing who to hire based on who paid for the course, the law is clear, the employer is responsible for " Safety related training ". The applicant should be hired based on his/her skills and experience, not on the " Safety related courses ", he or she paid for on their own. A good employer should hire quality skilled workers and train them with regard to safety as they are required to do by *LAW, THAT IS NOT OPTIONAL*

I am not dodging you with regard to Unions, ( IBEW ) not taking learners. I agree with you! :thumbsup:

Union Contractors use the safety card as an excuse, but I disagree. The most learning that can ever possibly be done is on big sites. Yes, there is DANGER all around those sites, that's why a learner should be put with an experienced Journeyman. It is the employer, ( and the workers' ) responsibility to insist this takes place. My first big Union job was at a very large project, and I was an apprentice. Loved it! :thumbup:

Thanks, Borgi


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

eejack said:


> The reason why I have you on ignore is you just make crap up.
> 
> You might have a case for a small Contractor doing better than a union electrician, meaning the actual owner of the business, the fellow who works night and day, who sweats out making payroll and collections - that guy, that guy should be doing better than a union electrician. I would hope he is doing better...those folks keep the nation running.


Yes eejack

I would be that sm contractor , but i don't sweat it after all these years on my own because i earned my position.

But here's some more crap to keep _you_ (thankfully) ignoring _me _

We could be union, some of us where offered or have been union

But most of _you_ , especially those proud of foisting their inflatable rats at us EC's you've lost out to .....could never..... not in your wildest dreams 

*be one* .....

ignore away then ! 

~CS~


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Batfink said:


> No union? That means everyone in the area works for minimum wage according to these clowns.


He lives in NJ - the entire state is covered by the IBEW. He claims to have been union himself. Basically he just lies. Folks like him give all you non union folks a bad name, just making stuff up, lying, being generally obnoxious and rude. At least we know you are not all bags like that one.

Though, if you want to just fling insults ( clowns was completely unnecessary ) you will find him to be a perfect conversational buddy.

Interestingly, it seems like non union folks don't really want a discussion, they want to listen to themselves boast about how awesome being underpaid and overworked is. Reading back through the thread, it is pretty obvious.


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## Batfink (Jul 9, 2014)

Well this the problem we have here, you don't comprehend what others have to say. I prefer someone doing something on their own without me wiping their backside because it shows motivation, has nothing to do with paying for courses. WHMIS, CSTS, first aid etc are cheap, I know I pay for guys to take them. I spend thousands each year on training for my guys.

This is what I was saying and I hope you understand it this time. Ready? Ok, if I receive 2 resumes at the same time, both guys have been out of work for 3 months. One did not present to me anything he did in that time other then collect EI. The other shows me a simple course such as WHMIS he did in his off time to better himself then that shows me he is motivated and doing something other then waiting for the phone to ring. He already has leg up on getting a job, had ZERO to do with my wallet, has everything to do with avoiding the sense of entitlement the lazy seem to have. Clear this time?


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

Only up in the smog filled north east part of the state is there an ibew presence.

Your local is so small 102 gets most of your work.

The last time someone said I was lying about that Slick vic backed me up telling the story how he was non union and wired a strip mall right next door to the office of local 351.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Batfink said:


> Well this the problem we have here, you don't comprehend what others have to say. I prefer someone doing something on their own without me wiping their backside because it shows motivation, has nothing to do with paying for courses. WHMIS, CSTS, first aid etc are cheap, I know I pay for guys to take them. I spend thousands each year on training for my guys.
> 
> This is what I was saying and I hope you understand it this time. Ready? Ok, if I receive 2 resumes at the same time, both guys have been out of work for 3 months. One did not present to me anything he did in that time other then collect EI. The other shows me a simple course such as WHMIS he did in his off time to better himself then that shows me he is motivated and doing something other then waiting for the phone to ring. He already has leg up on getting a job, had ZERO to do with my wallet, has everything to do with avoiding the sense of entitlement the lazy seem to have. Clear this time?


You seem to want to equate lazy with union, when in reality all you really have observed is lazy who have applied to work for you.

I have training through the hall and outside the hall - but it really doesn't matter since I won't work for you. It seems to confuse non union contractors but most of us union electricians won't work non union. Non union doesn't pay as well, doesn't provide as good benefits, doesn't provide the same safety standards nor provides the same working culture. Nothing wrong will all of that but why would I work harder, for less, less safely, surrounded by folks who are motivated by 'getting ahead' instead of doing quality work?

Furthermore, based on the posts on this forum, most non union electricians are angry close minded pricks with self esteem issues. Who would want to work with that?


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

eejack said:


> You seem to want to equate lazy with union, when in reality all you really have observed is lazy who have applied to work for you.
> 
> I have training through the hall and outside the hall - but it really doesn't matter since I won't work for you. It seems to confuse non union contractors but most of us union electricians won't work non union. Non union doesn't pay as well, doesn't provide as good benefits, doesn't provide the same safety standards nor provides the same working culture. Nothing wrong will all of that but why would I work harder, for less, less safely, surrounded by folks who are motivated by 'getting ahead' instead of doing quality work?
> 
> Furthermore, based on the posts on this forum, most non union electricians are angry close minded pricks with self esteem issues. Who would want to work with that?


You know that the funniest thing about your post is that this WAS a good thread until you started on post #35


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## Batfink (Jul 9, 2014)

Your a brilliant individual aren't you, so you quote my post one that has no mention of union let alone union and lazy in the same sentence. Way to just jump in with both feet without understanding the conversation. 

It's true you would never work for me, I find it highly unlikely you would even know how to even apply.....

If you read any of my posts you would know that yes, some non-union companies pay well, train well, compensate well, etc. Now feel free to partially read some other posts.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Batfink said:


> Your a brilliant individual aren't you, so you quote my post one that has no mention of union let alone union and lazy in the same sentence. Way to just jump in with both feet without understanding the conversation.
> 
> It's true you would never work for me, I find it highly unlikely you would even know how to even apply.....
> 
> If you read any of my posts you would know that yes, some non-union companies pay well, train well, compensate well, etc. Now feel free to partially read some other posts.


Posting in a union forum on a union topic...

Yes, I know some contractors are good non union contractors, have dealt with a few and have helped a few out over the years. I even congratulated you on being one of those good contractors in this thread...but I guess you missed that part since you are so fired up for a fight.

Enjoy.

Plonk.


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## 51360 (Jun 9, 2014)

Batfink said:


> Well this the problem we have here, you don't comprehend what others have to say. I prefer someone doing something on their own without me wiping their backside because it shows motivation, has nothing to do with paying for courses. WHMIS, CSTS, first aid etc are cheap, I know I pay for guys to take them. I spend thousands each year on training for my guys.
> 
> This is what I was saying and I hope you understand it this time. Ready? Ok, if I receive 2 resumes at the same time, both guys have been out of work for 3 months. One did not present to me anything he did in that time other then collect EI. *The other shows me a simple course such as WHMIS he did in his off time to better himself then that shows me he is motivated and doing something other then waiting for the phone to ring. He already has leg up on getting a job, had ZERO to do with my wallet, has everything to do with avoiding the sense of entitlement the lazy seem to have. Clear this time?*


I am losing my patience with you repeating the same bullschit while insisting I, and others, are lazy because I won't pay for " safety related courses "! 

You are looking for workers who will do as they're told without asking questions, not skilled workers! *BAGLICKING* is not a skill I posses, but no fear, there are plenty here in the land of " geter done ". :laughing:

My apologies to the many, many, hard working Alberta Electricians, ( Union and non Union ), who stand tall against EC like this.

Thanks, Borgi


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## Batfink (Jul 9, 2014)

Sometimes union guys need to speak up to educate non union but goes the other way to. I just feel the need to speak up when I know some of us put education, safety and of course employee wages at the top of our list. Lumping all non union together like some do is just asking for a fight when those of us loose sleep in making sure our guys have what they need to enjoy work and life. 

As I said in another post I have no issue with the union other then not hiring starters and when members bash non-union without knowing every contractor out there. 

I don't make much more then my guys because I put all I can back into them. They are my company and without then I have nothing. With the work we do I cannot change guys out whenever I want nor would I want to.


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## Batfink (Jul 9, 2014)

So now I don't like employees that ask questions? Where did that come from? I actually prefer questions and opinions of my guys (but you will twist this as you see fit). If my guys aren't asking questions then I am not finding the challenging jobs I prefer. 

Stand tall all you want on your high horse! Defeat the small EC that does what he can for his guys. Bravo!


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## 51360 (Jun 9, 2014)

Batfink said:


> So now I don't like employees that ask questions? Where did that come from? I actually prefer questions and opinions of my guys (but you will twist this as you see fit). If my guys aren't asking questions then I am not finding the challenging jobs I prefer.
> 
> Stand tall all you want on your high horse! Defeat the small EC that does what he can for his guys. Bravo!


Maybe I inferred too much in your case, and you're right it's not fair to lump every EC, Union or non Union, together.

I have seen employers reward workers who pay for all the " Safety " courses, bring cordless drills, even material from home, first hand! So I guess I am a little touchy about the issue.

Employers who ask for " employer responsible Safety training " usually are looking for a certain type of worker. I'll try to play nice.

I stand tall for my belief system, not to defeat the small EC looking after his guys. . I most certainly listen to others, and differing opinions, from atop my old crippled horse.

I left the IBEW local 424 because of some of the political bull, but I certainly am not against either choice. :thumbsup: Union, CLAC, MERIT, non Union. Whatever.

Time for a pop. Happy contracting. 

Thanks, Borgi


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## Batfink (Jul 9, 2014)

Well since you brought it up I only require my guys to have the basic union tool list. Most don't listen due being brand loyal lol. So my toys get mixed with theirs but it's their choice. However if they are using their tools that are not on the list in the manner intended and break them I will replace it, hopefully they don't all switch to Hilti!


Have a good weekend


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

Batfink said:


> So now I don't like employees that ask questions? Where did that come from?


That's rule number #457654 in the ibew non union contractor rule book

Didn't you know that?


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

eejack said:


> Interestingly, it seems like *union* folks don't really want a discussion, they want to listen to themselves boast about how awesome being underpaid and overworked is. Reading back through the thread, it is pretty obvious.


FIFY.....

:whistling2::thumbup::laughing:


~CS~


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

> I just dont get this mentality ?


i do....

work with the salts 

any 3 toed sloth could hang more pipe in a day than one does :no:

so , who you gonna hire.....? :whistling2:

~CS~


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## kg7879 (Feb 3, 2014)

robnj772 said:


> That's rule number #457654 in the ibew non union contractor rule book
> 
> Didn't you know that?


What kool aid? You keeping saying that union guys are drinking kool aid. 

What are union guys so misinformed on? We know there are some non union companies that offer benefits but generally the union package is better and so is the safety. Is it kool aid to say that?


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

kg7879 said:


> What kool aid? You keeping saying that union guys are drinking kool aid.
> 
> What are union guys so misinformed on? We know there are some non union companies that offer benefits but generally the union package is better and so is the safety. Is it kool aid to say that?


Yes, because we stand up for ourselves. It makes them uncomfortable with their kneeling.


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

eejack said:


> Yes, because we stand up for ourselves. It makes them uncomfortable with their kneeling.


It's funny you start an attack and turn around and play victim


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## Ultrafault (Dec 16, 2012)

.......nvm.....


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

eejack said:


> Yes, because we stand up for ourselves. It makes them uncomfortable with their kneeling.


I see

So everyone of you _pontificating_ here are posting on *union* made computers, sitting in *union* made chairs, with *union* made desks, wearing* union *made clothing and boots, and only hire *union* companies to do work on your homes , cars, teeth , etc? :whistling2:

Now I want your autograph! :thumbup:


~CS~


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

eejack said:


> Yes, because we stand up for ourselves. It makes them uncomfortable with their kneeling.


Blanket statements like this from either side of the fence show why there is so much distrust and makes it difficult for issues to be resolved.


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

Bad Electrician said:


> Blanket statements like this from either side of the fence show why there is so much distrust and makes it difficult for issues to be resolved.


Exactly


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Unions are dying and I couldn't be happier about that.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Bad Electrician said:


> Blanket statements like this from either side of the fence show why there is so much distrust and makes it difficult for issues to be resolved.


And therein lies the _entire_ problem Badone. Not one salt have i met that would come across with the bravado and braggadocio written here. 

Because the replies would be exactly what we read returned.

Does anyone here think that will grow membership , or support? :no:


So much for shakin' hands & kissin' babies :laughing:

~CS~


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

MTW said:


> Unions are dying and I couldn't be happier about that.



It's more a suicide / murder MT....










~CS~


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## ampman66 (Dec 5, 2012)

Gee, another union vs non-union debate.
Who would have thought?????
That never happens.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

MTW said:


> Unions are dying and I couldn't be happier about that.





MTW said:


> Tradesmen in particular seem to disdain anyone who make more money than them, especially if they do so via higher education.


:laughing:


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Bad Electrician said:


> Blanket statements like this from either side of the fence show why there is so much distrust and makes it difficult for issues to be resolved.


There are no issues to be resolved. The anti-worker sentiment in this forum is unyielding - they froth at the mouth like rabid squirrels. They come into every union thread and puke up the same sputum over and over. You could go back over the last couple of years and see the exact same posts from the exact same people ( just change the usernames to match previously banned posters ).

In the real world that attitude is destroying their own wages and they are powerless to stop it, so they come here and vent. It restores some sense of control.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

eejack said:


> There are no issues to be resolved. The anti-worker sentiment in this forum is unyielding - they froth at the mouth like rabid squirrels. They come into every union thread and puke up the same sputum over and over. You could go back over the last couple of years and see the exact same posts from the exact same people ( just change the usernames to match previously banned posters ).
> 
> In the real world that attitude is destroying their own wages and they are powerless to stop it, so they come here and vent. It restores some sense of control.


I'd rather be poor then be a part of a thuggish, corrupt, criminal organization like the IBEW.


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## 51360 (Jun 9, 2014)

MTW said:


> I'd rather *be poor* then be a......


Have a pop! Be *HAPPY!!!*

Thanks, Borgi


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

eejack said:


> There are no issues to be resolved. The anti-worker sentiment in this forum is unyielding - they froth at the mouth like rabid squirrels. They come into every union thread and puke up the same sputum over and over. You could go back over the last couple of years and see the exact same posts from the exact same people ( just change the usernames to match previously banned posters ).
> 
> In the real world that attitude is destroying their own wages and they are powerless to stop it, so they come here and vent. It restores some sense of control.












:whistling2:

~CS~


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## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

It is always the same thing, "we are better than you in more ways than you want to admit." No one likes to hear that from either side. Not everyone can get in the Union for several reasons, some of which is not as prevalent as it once was. Such as family, ethnicity and religious affiliation. New construction has always been an up and down business, so you are always working yourself out of a job. Because of the economic climate the wage, benefits and ability to work year round has changed drastically. There are several locals that no longer have dental, vision, vacation, paid holidays. That said a lot of non-union contractors are offering these benefits. No one can say that if you are union and what to chase work outside your jurisdiction and can find it, you will be able to keep your benefit package going. However there are people who don't want to leave their families and lose their benefits such as health care after 30 days just like the non-union. Of course there is always COBRA for both. If you track the national labor wage and benefit trends you will see that for workers those trends show the packages for both are getting closer and closer. Just my $0.02.

Suck it up, we will all be working together or not working at all.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

rlc3854 said:


> Suck it up, we will all be working together or not working at all.


word!

:thumbsup:

~CS~


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

eejack said:


> There are no issues to be resolved. The anti-worker sentiment in this forum is unyielding - they froth at the mouth like rabid squirrels. They come into every union thread and puke up the same sputum over and over. You could go back over the last couple of years and see the exact same posts from the exact same people ( just change the usernames to match previously banned posters ).
> 
> In the real world that attitude is destroying their own wages and they are powerless to stop it, so they come here and vent. It restores some sense of control.


Your comments are the exact same from the opposite end of the discussion, as the rabid ant-union members do nothing to aid their argument, your post hurt as well.

Just a thought.


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## Semi-Ret Electrician (Nov 10, 2011)

robnj772 said:


> That's rule number #457654 in the ibew non union contractor rule book
> 
> Didn't you know that?


Rob, I'm surprised you would post a cartoon of Jesus.


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

Semi-Ret Electrician said:


> Rob, I'm surprised you would post a cartoon of Jesus.


Why is that?

You went to high school with him didn't you.?


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## Semi-Ret Electrician (Nov 10, 2011)

robnj772 said:


> Why is that?
> 
> You went to high school with him didn't you.?


Why would you want to hack off half the folks in this country?

You might want to be buried wearing PPE.


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

Semi-Ret Electrician said:


> Why would you want to hack off half the folks in this country? You might want to be buried wearing PPE.


Oh I get it.

Chicken Steve hacked your account


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## Semi-Ret Electrician (Nov 10, 2011)

I actually knew Jesus in HS but he was not a fellow student.

He and his father took me under their wing during the Nam years, as they did with so many others. In fact, long ago, his father said if we wished, we could call him father.

When things got really bad I would "call" them up and things always got better. Maybe not immediately but in due time.

In my HS shop class we had a bully who was not a big fan of Jesus, he was pronounced DOA after he coiled up some energized motor leads.

Over the years I've had many instances where a voice in my heart advised me to do something differently and, it saved my life. I "called" Him up each and every time to thank Him. 

Being in one of the most dangerous professions, you might want to try and get in touch with Him also.


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## Awg-Dawg (Jan 23, 2007)

Semi-Ret Electrician said:


> In my HS shop class we had a bully who was not a big fan of Jesus, he was pronounced DOA after he coiled up some energized motor leads


 
It sounds like youre saying, that since the bully didn't believe in Jesus, he died.


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## Semi-Ret Electrician (Nov 10, 2011)

Awg-Dawg said:


> It sounds like youre saying, that since the bully didn't believe in Jesus, he died.


Not really, but he did use His name in vain all the time. I wouldn't judge him or pretend to know what he believed.

We all begin to die at birth. Some just take longer than others.

IMO, believing Jesus exist is not enough. Just like believing Satan exist is not enough.


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## Phatstax (Feb 16, 2014)

robnj772 said:


> Why is that?
> 
> You went to high school with him didn't you.?


Very disrespectful. Exactly what I expected from you. The gentleman you are so happily harassing has put in many years of hard work in a very dangerous trade, he has seen safety and technology advance as a result of the death of others. Perhaps you should think about that before you start running your mouth to him. Just my opinion.


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

kg7879 said:


> Did he want to learn? If he did and you and other guys didn't want to help him then that pisses me off. When guys put down other guys for lack of knowledge and experience it hurts this whole trade. There is stuff I have never done in this trade that I should of been trained on or exposed too. I haven't got the opportunity yet. I am a bit nervous that I will come across some a**hole foreman who will lay me off for my lack of knowledge or that it will take me a little more time because I have never done the task before. Sorry I am not trying to attack you. I have seen too many good guys get laid off because lack of knowledge not lack of effort.


. Yes , he wanted to learn and I gave him a crash course . He got laid off when the job dictated it , but I found things for him to do . I just found it slightly odd , that anyone who goes through any type apprenticeship , hasn't seen how 3-way switches work ? I sura as hell don't know it all and will never admit to such , lol !


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

eejack said:


> Yet another union bashing thread. Refreshing. "Oh, I'm not bashing, I'm blah blah blah." Simple truth, if you bash unions you are bashing workers, if you bash workers you erode your own conditions. So go ahead, help the money men beat you down, make it easier for them to treat you like cheap disposable labor. Every 'anti-union' story has a non union counterpart. So they get us to rip each other apart while they watch, amused, counting their extra profits. Enjoy.


. I really wasn't bashing the IBEW at all . I have a problem with the " if it's not IBEW , it's crap " mentality , that's all . Out of curiosity eejack , are you a born into the IBEW man , or an organized guy ? The difference here is usually overwhelming .


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

I'll wager the fish fish who grew legs was mighty proud of himself.

In fact, he probably sat his azz on shore and started calling the 2nd one struggling out of the reef all manner of expletive deletives....:jester: ~CS~


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

drumnut08 said:


> . I really wasn't bashing the IBEW at all . I have a problem with the " if it's not IBEW , it's crap " mentality , that's all . Out of curiosity eejack , are you a born into the IBEW man , or an organized guy ? The difference here is usually overwhelming .


Organized 30 years ago.

Most union folks don't believe "if it is not IBEW it is crap", however most of the anti worker posters on this forum push that as our 'kool aid party line'. I rather doubt I have ever said anything along those lines. I am not shy about calling bull**** artists out on their bull****, but part of the union mentality is to strive to bring up the conditions of the entire trade.

There are lots of good non union workers and contractors out there, just as there are good union workers and contractors. You just won't hear that from the trolls. Everything is 'rat' this and 'scab' that, thugs everywhere. They supposedly all work harder, make more and are mystically all better than any union worker out there. I wish that were true, but at least it gives us all something to aim for.


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