# 1st hand Ground Down story



## JohnR (Apr 12, 2010)

I saw in the contractor talk area under a thread called common problems where a number of electricians had only 3rd hand knowledge of ground down trouble. JohnValdes and 480Sparky among them.
I don't know how to sign in to that part of this site so here it is.

That said, here is my story. I was planning an addition to my house and had been measuring my rooms so I could get a good as-built.
My daughter, about 3 or 4 at the time, decided to get the tapemeasure and measure the room.
She ran the tapemeasure into a corner behind my computer which had an outlet ground down. I had plugged in a surge protector which had a metal case, industrial style. It was slightly sagged out of the recep. 

The tape dropped down in the slot between the case and wall plate. 








Blowing a small hole at the edge of the tapemeasure (1) She dropped the tape and started crying and it started rewinding a little and then started shorting again at (2) 

When my wife got there, the tape was on the ground and still behind the desk . She picked it up and the tape flipped somehow and started sparking again.(3) 
(ignore the chip out)
Strange thing my computer was off but somehow my modem fried. It wasn't even plugged into that surge protector.
I thank God that my daughter wasn't hurt in all this but firmly believe that if the outlet was ground up it wouldn't have been possible to happen.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

just a couple questions:

1) do you think an arc fault breaker would have prevented the issue ?

2) why stop at ground up or down ? why not have a ground ring all the way around the receptacle. why not require every receptacle to be twist lock , or have bare grounded plates ? 

my point - ground up or ground down is little or no benefit and doesn't solve the problem you listed. That does not mean there isn't a safer solution , however.


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

This threads needs to be closed. :sleep1:


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

I am sorry that your daughter was scared but I have to wonder about basic electricity. The current/sparking incident would have occurred at the receptacle. It would be at that point where the hot to neutral fault would have occurred. I don't see any way that a modem would have been fried as a result of that incident. The fault current would have occurred outside of the equipment.


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## The Lightman (Jan 9, 2010)

wildleg said:


> That does not mean there isn't a safer solution , however.


Don't use a metal tape next time and fry your kid.


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## JohnR (Apr 12, 2010)

wildleg said:


> just a couple questions:
> 
> 1) do you think an arc fault breaker would have prevented the issue ?
> 
> ...


1) It may have, there was none as the service change was done previous to afci's being invented. This also happened in 2004 or so. I forgot to mention that.
2)I actually could see twist lock but for the dumb guys that I have worked with in the past who didn't know how to wire one. Then again, they had a hard time with normal outlets. 
I know you are being just a little facetious.:thumbsup:
I was trying to answer a question that I saw which I had experience in that is all. Yes there is a safer solution. It sometimes doesn't come to mind till another mentions it. :huh:


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## JohnR (Apr 12, 2010)

RIVETER said:


> I am sorry that your daughter was scared but I have to wonder about basic electricity. The current/sparking incident would have occurred at the receptacle. It would be at that point where the hot to neutral fault would have occurred. I don't see any way that a modem would have been fried as a result of that incident. The fault current would have occurred outside of the equipment.


What_ I think_ may have happened was the tape laid against the grounded case and somehow because the computer was off and the modem was plugged into a different surge protector, it took a ground path through the phone wires instead somehow. 

I forgot to mention , the house was built in 1927 and although most of the wiring was replaced before I bought it, some old bx was still in there. I don't remember if that outlet had any in the circuit.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

The Lightman said:


> Don't use a metal tape next time and fry your kid.


 I want to get me one of those.:thumbsup:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Change all your receps to clock outlets. :thumbsup:



JohnR said:


> .............The tape dropped down in the slot between the case and wall plate.......




The problem wasn't ground up or ground down...... it was _your wall plates being too loose_.


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## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

The problem is the electricity. I say ban it. Or regulate it more closely to keep it in the hands of those who paid the registration fee.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

MF Dagger said:


> The problem is the electricity. I say ban it. Or regulate it more closely to keep it in the hands of those who paid the registration fee.



Enact laws that state you have to be at least 21 before you can be in a room with electricity.


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## JohnR (Apr 12, 2010)

The surge protector looked like one of these 

mounted upside down as it were, it hung off the wall a little. 

The wall plate was fine. Well slightly blacker than before.:yes:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

JohnR said:


> ............ She dropped the tape and........ it started rewinding a little and then started shorting again at (2)...........


So at this point, you're saying it's impossible for the tape to have come in contact with both the ground and the hot?



JohnR said:


> ........When my wife got there, the tape was on the ground and still behind the desk . She picked it up and the tape flipped somehow and started sparking again.(3)
> (ignore the chip out)
> .............


Again, you're saying it's impossible for the tape to have come in contact with both the ground and the hot?


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## JohnR (Apr 12, 2010)

480sparky said:


> So at this point, you're saying it's impossible for the tape to have come in contact with both the ground and the hot?
> 
> 
> 
> Again, you're saying it's impossible for the tape to have come in contact with both the ground and the hot?


 No not in this particular case but that was just because the case of the SP was metal and grounded. 

Just to make sure I am reading you correctly, I am referring to the grounding cond. not grounded. If it was a normal cord or case ,yes it would have been impossible. IMO


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## The Lightman (Jan 9, 2010)

william1978 said:


> I want to get me one of those.:thumbsup:


Check your supply house. I paid thirty dollars cheaper at Rechzell than the orange store was charging.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

JohnR said:


> No not in this particular case but that was just because the case of the SP was metal and grounded.
> 
> Just to make sure I am reading you correctly, I am referring to the grounding cond. not grounded. If it was a normal cord or case ,yes it would have been impossible. IMO



I'm confused now.

You're saying its possible to make contact between the grounded (neutral) and ungrounded (hot), but not between the grounding (ground) and ungrounded (hot)?


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## JoeKP (Nov 16, 2009)

im pretty sure he is saying that the tape measure fell on the blades of the surge strip cord, and went BOOM!


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

JoeKP said:


> im pretty sure he is saying that the tape measure fell on the blades of the surge strip cord, and went BOOM!



Yeah, I get that too.

But what's the difference between the tape falling and striking the grounded (neutral) and ungrounded (hot) and grounding (ground) and ungrounded (hot)? Same result.


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

Since no manufacture that I know of makes a cord mounted transformer, GFCI, or air freshener for a ground up receptacle I will mount ground down.


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## JohnR (Apr 12, 2010)

The difference as I see it. if the recep was ground up the tape would have never come in contact with the hot(ungrounded) at all.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

JohnR said:


> The difference as I see it. if the recep was ground up the tape would have never come in contact with the hot(ungrounded) at all.


 Did you turn all of your rec's over?


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## JohnR (Apr 12, 2010)

william1978 said:


> Did you turn all of your rec's over?


:no::whistling2:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

JohnR said:


> The difference as I see it. if the recep was ground up the tape would have never come in contact with the hot(ungrounded) at all.



So falling metal will always maintain it's bottom edge at a 90° angle to the receptacle?


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

480sparky said:


> So falling metal will always maintain it's bottom edge at a 90° angle to the receptacle?


 



And for everybody that's ever dropped something accross a receptacle with ground down,,,,,,there are just as many people who have shorted them out from the bottom side


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

JohnR said:


> :no::whistling2:


 Why not? I thought that was the whole point of this thread.


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

I was was told that a knife would some how fly behind there and short out, not a tape measure. Are you telling us the whole truth, JohnR? :laughing:


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## JohnR (Apr 12, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> And for everybody that's ever dropped something accross a receptacle with ground down,,,,,,there are just as many people who have shorted them out from the bottom side


Probably is.:laughing:


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## Mr. Sparkle (Jan 27, 2009)




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## fdew (Mar 26, 2009)

*Problem Solved*

I think I can solve this for everyone. Just mount this on a condulet and you are all set. Note, This is for display only and is not in use.

Frank


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## Widestance_Politics (Jun 2, 2010)

fdew said:


> I think I can solve this for everyone. Just mount this on a condulet and you are all set. Note, This is for display only and is not in use.
> 
> Frank


Bing! I need to call the patent office stat!....


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## electricalperson (Jan 11, 2008)

i dont think the problem was ground up or ground down i think the problem was a ****ty receptacle that didnt have enough holding power to hold the plug all the way in. replace that receptacle with a good one  

only reason i put the ground down is because i think it looks better. a ground up receptacle is ugly IMO. i put ground facing right when i put them horizontal.


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## electricalperson (Jan 11, 2008)

we wired a place several years ago that had kids. it was a daycare of some sort. the inspector made us turn all the receptacles over so the kids cant stick a piece of metal on the top and get hurt. my question is where would a kid get a piece of metal in a daycare and why would the kid not be watched?


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

electricalperson said:


> we wired a place several years ago that had kids. it was a daycare of some sort. the inspector made us turn all the receptacles over so the kids cant stick a piece of metal on the top and get hurt. my question is where would a kid get a piece of metal in a daycare and why would the kid not be watched?


How did he _make_ you do this? Gun, knife, some sort of mind altering drug?


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## NJPostman (Sep 9, 2010)

Interesting debate.....I've always wondered about this myself. I prefer ground down, it looks better and yes, most devices seem to be designed for ground down, BUT I can see the logic in mounting them ground up, it DOES seem much more likely that a metal object will cross the blades by falling on top, rather than by reaching up from the bottom. It's been a while since I noticed, but don't some manufacturers have wording or logos which are oriented to be read ground up?


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

robnj772 said:


> This threads needs to be closed. :sleep1:



Ditto.

This rates with Ford vs Chevy or which is the best type of fishing lure.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

Isn't that kinda like Australian vs British style if I remember right : ) Riveter might know what I'm getting at, LOL!


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## gardiner (Sep 25, 2007)

Just use these and adjust as required

http://www.smarthome.com/2241W/White-360-Degree-Rotating-Outlet/p.aspx


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Yeah, I get that too.
> 
> But what's the difference between the tape falling and striking the grounded (neutral) and ungrounded (hot) and grounding (ground) and ungrounded (hot)? Same result.


 only if the grounding (ground) was not cut off in the box:laughing::laughing:


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

I just deviced an office space, all 60 outlets ground up. metal plates fall on the ground if they ever come loose, looks ugly for ahole tenant of my customer, inconvenient if 90 plug has ground on bottom


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

If you use twist lock outlets and receptacles you'll never have to worry about this problem. I then throw a AFCI on all my circuits, TR, heck I even get em WP in case someone spills milk. I also invest in rubber flooring to help with insulating.


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