# Final Inspection of Generator install



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> Today, i had a final inspection for a generator install with ATS. I called in for inspection this morning but still had to isolate all grounds from neautral. With limited time to work with and inspector coming sooner then i tought i said to myself i'll do it after inspection, but, came to find out by inspector that its not required to isolate the EGC's from neautral bar. Great!!! He told me its not required since i'm only transferring power from one sourece to the other. The transfer switch was located outdoors and with inches of meter pan. I was always under the impression the EGC's had to be isolated. I guess i was wrong or was he wrong???? :whistling2:


Did the ATS become the service disconnecting means?


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

He was wrong. The switch becomes the service.


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## Bulldog1 (Oct 21, 2011)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> Today, i had a final inspection for a generator install with ATS. I called in for inspection this morning but still had to isolate all grounds from neautral. With limited time to work with and inspector coming sooner then i tought i said to myself i'll do it after inspection, but, came to find out by inspector that its not required to isolate the EGC's from neautral bar. Great!!! He told me its not required since i'm only transferring power from one sourece to the other. The transfer switch was located outdoors and with inches of meter pan. I was always under the impression the EGC's had to be isolated. I guess i was wrong or was he wrong???? :whistling2:


Did you use a service rated ATS? Factory bonding jumper left connected?
Or a non service rated ATS with 4 conductors to the generator? If so yes they should be separated.


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

Okay it was a 200amp service rated ATS. The panel had a 200amp main breaker as well. The service entrance conductors entering the home were less then 6'. So, I was told no grounding is necessary nor was isolating all the EGC's from neutral bar. The binding screw in ATS was not removed.

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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

BBQ said:


> Did the ATS become the service disconnecting means?


It could have, but the panel already had a 200amp main breaker.

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## Bulldog1 (Oct 21, 2011)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> It could have, but the panel already had a 200amp main breaker.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum




The service rated ATS becomes the Service Disconnect. The existing panel is now a sub. Did you ask for a code reference? I imagine not since he was passing it.......:laughing:


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## Bulldog1 (Oct 21, 2011)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> It could have, but the panel already had a 200amp main breaker.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum



There is so much wrong with your statement I don't know where to begin.....:no:


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

Bulldog1 said:


> The service rated ATS becomes the Service Disconnect. The existing panel is now a sub. Did you ask for a code reference? I imagine not since he was passing it.......:laughing:


Well think of it this way. From the meter pan to the first means of disconnect we are allowed to run up 6' of se cable unprotected which does not have an EGC as part of the cable assembly. All I did was add in a ATS which was service rated. He also questioned me why I would wanna isolate the EGC's from the neautral bar. I told him I thought it was required. He chuckled and said he sent in a RFI to the NEC.

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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> It could have, but the panel already had a 200amp main breaker.


The NEC prohibits transfer switches on the supply side of service disconnects so that ATS must become the service disconnect, the GEC has to be moved out of what is now a sub panel and the neutrals and grounds have to be separated.



> *230.82 Equipment Connected to the Supply Side of Service
> Disconnect.* Only the following equipment shall be
> permitted to be connected to the supply side of the service
> disconnecting means:
> ...


Notice transfer switches are not on the list.


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## Bulldog1 (Oct 21, 2011)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> Well think of it this way. From the meter pan to the first means of disconnect we are allowed to run up 6' of se cable unprotected which does not have an EGC as part of the cable assembly. All I did was add in a ATS which was service rated. He also questioned me why I would wanna isolate the EGC's from the neautral bar. I told him I thought it was required. He chuckled and said he sent in a RFI to the NEC.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum




So he let you leave the factory installed bonding jumper on the generator and the bond in the existing panel stayed connected also? :001_huh:


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

BBQ said:


> The NEC prohibits transfer switches on the supply side of service disconnects so that ATS must become the service disconnect, the GEC has to be moved out of what is now a sub panel and the neutrals and grounds have to be separated.
> 
> Notice transfer switches are not on the list.


So please explain to me in theory what will happen if i dont isolate the EGC's? Nothing!! If the AHJ said you do not have to isolate the grounds and he explains his reasoning behind it, should I question him and tell him your wrong and say it should be done this way. He was aware of what the code states he simply believes its not required on any work he inspects. I'm still stumped by this. I'm certainly glad it saved me a trip to the supply house. 

Merry Xmas

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## Bulldog1 (Oct 21, 2011)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> So please explain to me in theory what will happen if i dont isolate the EGC's? Nothing!! If the AHJ said you do not have to isolate the grounds and he explains his reasoning behind it, should I question him and tell him your wrong and say it should be done this way. He was aware of what the code states he simply believes its not required on any work he inspects. I'm still stumped by this. I'm certainly glad it saved me a trip to the supply house.
> 
> Merry Xmas
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum




So you know you have a non code compliant install but since it passed your ok with it? In theory if something happens and your work is found to not have been installed to the NEC a passed inspection or not your screwed.....The code requires bonding at one point only for a reason.......


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> So please explain to me in theory what will happen if i dont isolate the EGC's? Nothing!! If the AHJ said you do not have to isolate the grounds and he explains his reasoning behind it, should I question him and tell him your wrong and say it should be done this way. He was aware of what the code states he simply believes its not required on any work he inspects. I'm still stumped by this. I'm certainly glad it saved me a trip to the supply house.
> 
> Merry Xmas
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


Just admit you, nor him, know what the eff you were discussing.


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Just admit you, nor him, know what the eff you were discussing.


I would thread carefully.

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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

Bulldog1 said:


> So you know you have a non code compliant install but since it passed your ok with it? In theory if something happens and your work is found to not have been installed to the NEC a passed inspection or not your screwed.....The code requires bonding at one point only for a reason.......


I would disagree with that.

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## Bulldog1 (Oct 21, 2011)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> I would thread carefully.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum



Dude he has a valid point. You called an inspection in before the job was ready to be inspected. Let an inspector tell you he knows what you did is not legal but in HIS opinion it needs to be done this way. You post it here yet don't expect to be called out on it? :laughing:


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## Bulldog1 (Oct 21, 2011)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> I would disagree with that.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum



Disagree all you want......As the NEC article posted says....YOU and Mr Inspector are incorrect. Your install is not NEC compliant.......:no:

IT IS HOWEVER DUMB/MORON INSPECTOR COMPLIANT.......:whistling2:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> So please explain to me in theory what will happen if i dont isolate the EGC's? Nothing!! If the AHJ said you do not have to isolate the grounds and he explains his reasoning behind it, should I question him and tell him your wrong and say it should be done this way. He was aware of what the code states he simply believes its not required on any work he inspects. I'm still stumped by this. I'm certainly glad it saved me a trip to the supply house.
> 
> Merry Xmas
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


I am not talking about theory or what would happen or could happen.

I am talking about the NEC and bottom line you left a pile of NEC violations, the fact that inspector let it go does not change that.


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

BBQ said:


> I am not talking about theory or what would happen or could happen.
> 
> I am talking about the NEC and bottom line you left a pile of NEC violations, the fact that inspector let it go does not change that.


So, when certain certain cities, towns or states don't adopt the current 2011 in code are they in violation??

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## Fibes (Feb 18, 2010)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> So, when certain certain cities, towns or states don't adopt the current 2011 in code are they in violation??
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


Yes they are. The requirements brought forth in this thread have been in place for a good number of previous code cycles


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

Article 100
Definitions
APPROVED: Acceptable to the authority having jurisdiction

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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

Fibes said:


> Yes they are. The requirements brought forth in this thread have been in place for a good number of previous code cycles


Really, so why is it that the state of CT has not adopted the current code cycle. There still in 2005.

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## Fibes (Feb 18, 2010)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> Article 100
> Definitions
> APPROVED: Acceptable to the authority having jurisdiction
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


That's fine but be aware of the fact that if something goes wrong the Inspectors approval will not let you off the hook in a court room with blatant code violations being present


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## Fibes (Feb 18, 2010)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> Really, so why is it that the state of CT has not adopted the current code cycle. There still in 2005.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


And the same rules here were applicable in the 2005 cycle.


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

Fibes said:


> And the same rules here were applicable in the 2005 cycle.


Stop running circles around my original question. You have been proven wrong and be a man about it and admit your wrong.

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## Fibes (Feb 18, 2010)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> Stop running circles around my original question. You have been proven wrong and be a man about it and admit your wrong.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


What are you talking about? I am just telling you that the 2005 requirments for your installation are the same as the 2011 and you have violations, so you and your inspector are both wrong.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> So, when certain certain cities, towns or states don't adopt the current 2011 in code are they in violation??


No, but the section I quoted is many cycles old.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> Article 100
> Definitions
> APPROVED: Acceptable to the authority having jurisdiction


:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:

Well at least now you admit it does not meet NEC requirements.


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

BBQ said:


> :laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:
> 
> Well at least now you admit it does not meet NEC requirements.


Keywords: " Approved" and " Acceptable

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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> I would thread carefully.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


I'm not one for being careful. It is blatantly apparent I am correct.


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

Wow you guys are a tough crowd..
You guys are gonna luv this one.
I have another whole house generator to install. This one has a 400amp meter pan and 150' of unprotected wire from meter to the house. Told inspector about it and i asked if i can mount transfer switch by the utility panel without separating grounds or running additional grounds back to the panels. There is no conduit to house from meter, they used direct burial and no main breaker at the meter location. How that got approved is beyond me. The inspector gave me the go ahead to to do this install without any problems. I GOT THERE BLESSINGS ON THIS ONE BEFORE WE INSTALL ED ANYTHING OR EVEN CONTRACTED WITH HO, AND WE HAD A SITE VISIT TO THE LOCATION.

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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> Keywords: " Approved" and " Acceptable
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


Here is another key word applicable to your installation... WRONG:thumbdown:

Pete


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> Wow you guys are a tough crowd..
> You guys are gonna luv this one.
> I have another whole house generator to install. This one has a 400amp meter pan and 150' of unprotected wire from meter to the house. Told inspector about it and i asked if i can mount transfer switch by the utility panel without separating grounds or running additional grounds back to the panels. There is no conduit to house from meter, they used direct burial and no main breaker at the meter location. How that got approved is beyond me. The inspector gave me the go ahead to to do this install without any problems. I GOT THERE BLESSINGS ON THIS ONE BEFORE WE INSTALL ED ANYTHING OR EVEN CONTRACTED WITH HO, AND WE HAD A SITE VISIT TO THE LOCATION.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


So this one has just as many violations as the last, except you added one more by not grouping the disconnects


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## Fibes (Feb 18, 2010)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> Wow you guys are a tough crowd..
> You guys are gonna luv this one.
> I have another whole house generator to install. This one has a 400amp meter pan and 150' of unprotected wire from meter to the house. Told inspector about it and i asked if i can mount transfer switch by the utility panel without separating grounds or running additional grounds back to the panels. There is no conduit to house from meter, they used direct burial and no main breaker at the meter location. How that got approved is beyond me. The inspector gave me the go ahead to to do this install without any problems. I GOT THERE BLESSINGS ON THIS ONE BEFORE WE INSTALL ED ANYTHING OR EVEN CONTRACTED WITH HO, AND WE HAD A SITE VISIT TO THE LOCATION.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


Just goes to show how clueless the inspector is.


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

mcclary's electrical said:


> So this one has just as many violations as the last, except you added one more by not grouping the disconnects


It has one 400amp Service Rated disconnect outdoors by the utility meter. 
Grouping disconnects LMFAO!!!

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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

Its amazing the jealousy that's in the air.

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## Fibes (Feb 18, 2010)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> I guess i was wrong or was he wrong???? :whistling2:


 

BTW, you really didn't want an answer to that question did you?


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> Its amazing the jealousy that's in the air.


:lol::lol:


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> Its amazing the jealousy that's in the air.


Not jealous at all. 

Good Job!! Hope you do much more work with the inspectors "blessing".

That was called sarcasm...

Pete


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> Its amazing the jealousy that's in the air.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


Is this rewire? Why would we be jealous of someone that's wrong, and doesn't wanna learn why?


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

How ironic, while writing a reply to this thread, which, I was about to write something totally different then now the inspectors calls me about a reschedule. So, while I had him on the phone I explained to him my concerns. He told me that the AHJ can accept or approve any install. He told me to tell you guys you have no 
F. U. C. K. I. N IDEA WHAT YOU GUYS ARE TALKING ABOUT AND TO SPEAK TO YOUR LOCAL AHJ AND SEE WHAT THEY SAY IF YOU DONT BELIEVE!!!!

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## yankeewired (Jul 3, 2008)

(6) Solar photovoltaic systems, fuel cell systems, *or interconnected
electric power production sources.

*What would this refer to ?


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> How ironic, while writing a reply to this thread, which, I was about to write something totally different then now the inspectors calls me about a reschedule. So, while I had him on the phone I explained to him my concerns. He told me that the AHJ can accept or approve any install. He told me to tell you guys you have no
> F. U. C. K. I. N IDEA WHAT YOU GUYS ARE TALKING ABOUT AND TO SPEAK TO YOUR LOCAL AHJ AND SEE WHAT THEY SAY IF YOU DONT BELIEVE!!!!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


He's just as confused as you.


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## Fibes (Feb 18, 2010)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> How ironic, while writing a reply to this thread, which, I was about to write something totally different then now the inspectors calls me about a reschedule. So, while I had him on the phone I explained to him my concerns. He told me that the AHJ can accept or approve any install. He told me to tell you guys you have no
> F. U. C. K. I. N IDEA WHAT YOU GUYS ARE TALKING ABOUT AND TO SPEAK TO YOUR LOCAL AHJ AND SEE WHAT THEY SAY IF YOU DONT BELIEVE!!!!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


Sounds like you are telling a bald face lie or this inspector is more clueless than I originally thought


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## 3xdad (Jan 25, 2011)

Subscribed.:thumbsup:

Waiting to read chickensteve's reply to the inspector.:thumbup:


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> SPEAK TO YOUR LOCAL AHJ AND SEE WHAT THEY SAY IF YOU DONT BELIEVE!!!!


Just for fun I did. Oddly enough I still have the same opinion. 

I ain't got no dog in this fight but I would hate to work in the area that this inspector works in... be kinda hard to *guess* what he will or won't enforce. 

Pete


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## BurtiElectric (Jan 11, 2011)

The NEC is the minimum requirements, if you cant meet them and you are proud that you have an incompetent inspector, you have no business doing electrical work. Take some pride in your work and most importantly yourself. :no:

HACK


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## 19kilosparky984 (Sep 14, 2011)

BurtiElectric said:


> The NEC is the minimum requirements, if you cant meet them and you are proud that you have an incompetent inspector, you have no business doing electrical work. Take some pride in your work and most importantly yourself. :no:
> 
> HACK


No the NEC is THE requirement. Not the minimum,not the max, just the requirement. Either something is to code or it's not.


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

BurtiElectric said:


> The NEC is the minimum requirements, if you cant meet them and you are proud that you have an incompetent inspector, you have no business doing electrical work. Take some pride in your work and most importantly yourself. :no:
> 
> HACK


You guys still don't get it. If he deems the install to be acceptable and see's no reason to isolate the grounds from neutrals, because I simply added a ATS, so be it. 
In theory there's nothing wrong!! The transfer switch is only transferring from one source to the other. It's not switching the grounds.

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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> You guys still don't get it. If he deems the install to be acceptable and see's no reason to isolate the grounds from neutrals, because I simply added a ATS, so be it.
> In theory there's nothing wrong!! The transfer switch is only transferring from one source to the other. It's not switching the grounds.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


You win. :notworthy: 

Pete


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## Bulldog1 (Oct 21, 2011)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> How ironic, while writing a reply to this thread, which, I was about to write something totally different then now the inspectors calls me about a reschedule. So, while I had him on the phone I explained to him my concerns. He told me that the AHJ can accept or approve any install. He told me to tell you guys you have no
> F. U. C. K. I. N IDEA WHAT YOU GUYS ARE TALKING ABOUT AND TO SPEAK TO YOUR LOCAL AHJ AND SEE WHAT THEY SAY IF YOU DONT BELIEVE!!!!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum



I wonder if his boss or the chief inspector would agree with him. The AHJ has to follow the NEC or have a written amendment. I love how he says he submitted a change to the NEC and then starts enforcing it before it is even voted on. That is one inspector I would take to the state board....


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Bulldog1 said:


> I wonder if his boss or the chief inspector would agree with him. The AHJ has to follow the NEC or have a written amendment. I love how he says he submitted a change to the NEC and then starts enforcing it before it is even voted on. That is one inspector I would take to the state board....


 
What Salvadumass doesn't understand is as soon as there is a warranty issue with the generator, they're not gonna cover it because it was installed by a hack. Conveniently enough, when the inspector is approached about the situation, he will most certainly forget all about any converstions he ever had with sirMexitore or whatever his name is.


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## BurtiElectric (Jan 11, 2011)

19kilosparky984 said:


> No the NEC is THE requirement. Not the minimum,not the max, just the requirement. Either something is to code or it's not.


No the NEC is the minimum required for an installation. You could go above and beyond it.


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## 19kilosparky984 (Sep 14, 2011)

BurtiElectric said:


> No the NEC is the minimum required for an installation. You could go above and beyond it.


Well until inspectors start giving gold stickers for a super duper job I think to code shall suffice.

We are in the business for one thing and one thing only,to make a profit. 

If your going to go above the code I hope your getting paid to do so.


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

mcclary's electrical said:


> What Salvadumass doesn't understand is as soon as there is a warranty issue with the generator, they're not gonna cover it because it was installed by a hack. Conveniently enough, when the inspector is approached about the situation, he will most certainly forget all about any converstions he ever had with sirMexitore or whatever his name is.


Listen up you MICK. Your a real tough guy over the Internet. Face the facts that your weren't blessed with a big pecker. Don't get pissed at me for your lack of manlyhood.

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## BurtiElectric (Jan 11, 2011)

19kilosparky984 said:


> Well until inspectors start giving gold stickers for a super duper job I think to code shall suffice.
> 
> We are in the business for one thing and one thing only,to make a profit.
> 
> If your going to go above the code I hope your getting paid to do so.


Im not talking about losing your shirt or anything, the code requires 2 small appl circuits at a countertop. You've never run 3?


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## 19kilosparky984 (Sep 14, 2011)

BurtiElectric said:


> Im not talking about losing your shirt or anything, the code requires 2 small appl circuits at a countertop. You've never run 3?


Only if it's in the plans and I'm getting paid for it.

But your example isn't a good one because the NEC a code book not a design manual.


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## BurtiElectric (Jan 11, 2011)

Never said I do any work for free. Maybe the countertop was a bad example. Try minimum bending radius.

I said the NEC is the minimum and based on your last few posts you agree. It has nothing to do with money


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

BBQ said:


> The NEC prohibits transfer switches on the supply side of service disconnects so that ATS must become the service disconnect, the GEC has to be moved out of what is now a sub panel and the neutrals and grounds have to be separated.
> 
> Notice transfer switches are not on the list.


The ATS is connected to the load side of meter. We don't install disconnects before the meter in residential dwellings. 
If I'm reading that code section correctly.

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## Bulldog1 (Oct 21, 2011)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> The ATS is connected to the load side of meter. We don't install disconnects before the meter in residential dwellings.
> If I'm reading that code section correctly.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum



:no::no::no:


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> The ATS is connected to the load side of meter. We don't install disconnects before the meter in residential dwellings.
> If I'm reading that code section correctly.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


 
Code requires the bonding take place at the first disconnectting means. So your transfer switch became the service disconnect, you planel inside becomes a sub panel, and you run SER and seperate the neutrals off the can inside. Him and you are both wrong. You cannot have it bonded in two places.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> The ATS is connected to the load side of meter. We don't install disconnects before the meter in residential dwellings.
> If I'm reading that code section correctly.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


The location of the meter has nothing to do with it.


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Code requires the bonding take place at the first disconnectting means. So your transfer switch became the service disconnect, you planel inside becomes a sub panel, and you run SER and seperate the neutrals off the can inside. Him and you are both wrong. You cannot have it bonded in two places.


I understand that.. I never said I wasn't going to or not do it. I told the inspector it was not done when he arrived. He simply stated based on my situation that there was no need to seperate the EGC's from the neutral bar.

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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> there was no need to seperate the EGC's from the neutral bar.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


except for the NEC


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

mcclary's electrical said:


> except for the NEC


Ding ding ding. The Irishman wins!!!!

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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> I He simply stated based on my situation that there was no need to seperate the EGC's from the neutral bar.


And he was wrong. :thumbsup:


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

Now, let's say I use a non service rated 200 amp ATS, would I still have to do all my bonding in the transfer switch and isolate all my grounds in the 200amp main breaker panel? (IE) Load side of Meter to ATS, ATS to main breaker panel. Where does all my bonding take place?

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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

Add: also is this install permitted if the ATS is not considered service rated, install the conductors from the meter to the ATS?

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## Bulldog1 (Oct 21, 2011)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> Add: also is this install permitted if the ATS is not considered service rated, install the conductors from the meter to the ATS?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum



Are you really a licensed electrician? Think...service....not service.


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

Bulldog1 said:


> Are you really a licensed electrician? Think...service....not service.


Does that really matter. I'm a really great test taker.

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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

Hey! Did anyone check with their AHJ and question them if they would accept not isolating the grounds from the neutral bar???

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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> Now, let's say I use a non service rated 200 amp ATS, would I still have to do all my bonding in the transfer switch and isolate all my grounds in the 200amp main breaker panel? (IE) Load side of Meter to ATS, ATS to main breaker panel. Where does all my bonding take place?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


By NEC you would need to remove the Non service rated ATS. You are not allowed to install a non rated ats on the supply side of the service disconnect


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> Hey! Did anyone check with their AHJ and question them if they would accept not isolating the grounds from the neutral bar???
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


Well, you could say I asked................. ( I am an inspector :thumbsup: )

There's no way in hell that install would ever get a pass from me


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## Roger. (Dec 18, 2011)

manchestersparky said:


> Well, you could say I asked................. ( I am an inspector :thumbsup: )
> 
> There's no way in hell that install would ever get a pass from me


 
I don't think he looked at Pete's profile either.

Roger


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> Hey! Did anyone check with their AHJ and question them if they would accept not isolating the grounds from the neutral bar???
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


 
There's no way in hell I'd ever ask that.


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

Fibes said:


> That's fine but be aware of the fact that if something goes wrong the Inspectors approval will not let you off the hook in a court room with blatant code violations being present


Ill call you when i need legal advice:no:


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

mcclary's electrical said:


> There's no way in hell I'd ever ask that.


Why? Let me guess all the inspectors are Italian and they'll just make fun of the Irishman!!!!


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> Why? Let me guess all the inspectors are Italian and they'll just make fun of the Irishman!!!!


 
Because no real electrician would ask that to an inspector. I don't want them to think I get to work on a school bus.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> Why? Let me guess all the inspectors are Italian and they'll just make fun of the Irishman!!!!


This is one of the stupidest things I have ever read, even if you are joking. Are you still living in the 70's?

PLEASE drop the racial and nationality quips.


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## socalelect (Nov 14, 2011)

Hack electrician and inspector


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

Speedy Petey said:


> This is one of the stupidest things I have ever read, even if you are joking. Are you still living in the 70's?
> 
> PLEASE drop the racial and nationality quips.


You criticize me being racial? Why don't you you read the comments he makes. 
Or are you in bed with him also.

Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> You criticize me being racial? Why don't you you read the comments he makes.
> Or are you in bed with him also.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


 
I read it and I will tell you just stop it right there before something major happend in here.

And it have to end it right now.



Merci,
Marc


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Here you go whether you or your inspector agrees this is how IT NEEDs TO BE DONE.

1. The generator neutral ground needs to be lifted (if this exist)
2. The Service disconnect is in the ATS (assuming this ATS is service rated.
3. The neutral ground bond is in the ATS this is the SERVICE DISCONNECT.
4. The neutral ground bond in the old service panel (now a sub-panel) MUST be lifted.
5. The neutrals and EGC’s (Grounds) must be separated.

And I do not care if the feeder from the ATS to the panel is 2’, 6’ or 20’ and under the installation you have the FEEDER could be 100’ or more.

Theory or no theory this is CODE, commonly called the NEC or for your inspector who seems to be clueless (assuming you are telling the truth) THe National Electrical Code. The sections we are discussing have been in the NEC as long as I can remember and I have been in the trade 41 years.


Now if you would like theory, By making the illegal, improper, NEC violations you mistakingly installed but now condone in the face of many NEC experts.
You could be placing current on any metallic components that are bonded in the house. 

Now if you wish to argue grounding with me, or the validity of your installation as you try to justify your MAJOR mistakes OK, but understand YOU ARE WRONG.


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## Bulldog1 (Oct 21, 2011)

Check out what he said in this generator thread.....


Salvatoreg02 
PES

Really number* #4 copper or #4alum is required for a 20kw.* Number #3 is overkill...:whistling2:



How is it even possible you have installed a generator when you have no clue what the code requires?


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

Bulldog1 said:


> Check out what he said in this generator thread.....
> 
> Salvatoreg02
> PES
> ...


I rescind my statement from above. It's #4copper or #2alum. The generator output is 83.5 amps. T310 under 75degreee col. #4 copper is good for 85amps while #2alum is rated for 90amps.

Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


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## Bulldog1 (Oct 21, 2011)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> I rescind my statement from above. It's #4copper or #2alum. The generator output is 83.5 amps. T310 under 75degreee col. #4 copper is good for 85amps while #2alum is rated for 90amps.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum




How did you get a license? The generator is fused at 100Amps. Your wire has to be good for 100 amps.....


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

brian john said:


> Here you go whether you or your inspector agrees this is how IT NEEDs TO BE DONE.
> 
> 1. The generator neutral ground needs to be lifted (if this exist)
> 2. The Service disconnect is in the ATS (assuming this ATS is service rated.
> ...


Look at it this way. We don't do any grounding in the meter, NYSEG will require you to install 2 ground rods and #2co to the meter pan, Where as con Ed doesn't. My meter pan the neutral is already bonded So, if I continue that bond to the ATS. What will possibly happen if I don't seperate the grounds. NOTHING!!


Now on a side note, all you so called inspectors, master electricians and those of you who work for EC&M, if you read my original post I stated that the grounds needed to be separated etc. etc. etc. 

I know what the code requires, I told you the inspector passed my install. I even spoke to him afterward, because i felt he overlooked something and again he expressed to me if i wanted to separate the grds i could. He then expressed there was no plausible evidence that in fact by not doing so would cause harm. But, not one of you can tell me or bring to the table significant evidence that this install is harmful in anyway. I'm not trying to be controversial in anyway. 

@ Brian John are you stating that there is no plausible evidence in your statement?

Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


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## Bulldog1 (Oct 21, 2011)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> Look at it this way. We don't do any grounding in the meter, NYSEG will require you to install 2 ground rods and #2co to the meter pan, Where as con Ed doesn't. My meter pan the neutral is already bonded So, if I continue that bond to the ATS. What will possibly happen if I don't seperate the grounds. NOTHING!!
> 
> 
> Now on a side note, all you so called inspectors, master electricians and those of you who work for EC&M, if you read my original post I stated that the grounds needed to be separated etc. etc. etc.
> ...



It boils down to this. The NEC is a legal document. You either followed the rules and have a code compliant install or you didn't follow the rules and have a non code compliant install. Inspection pass or fail , your inspectors opinion and your opinion are meaningless. If the inspector went to court about your install do you think he would state what the code requires now or what he thinks it should say on the stand?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> @ Brian John are you stating that there is no plausible evidence in your statement?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


 
I made my statement, I refuse to be drug into an argument with a buffon. You were wrong, you are wrong and if you continue to do electric work, I feel for your customers.

As far as I am concerned CASE CLOSED.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> @ Brian John are you stating that there is no plausible evidence in your statement?


What we have all been telling you is what the code requires.

It has nothing to do with anything else.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> Look at it this way. We don't do any grounding in the meter, NYSEG will require you to install 2 ground rods and #2co to the meter pan, Where as con Ed doesn't. My meter pan the neutral is already bonded So, if I continue that bond to the ATS. What will possibly happen if I don't seperate the grounds. NOTHING!!
> 
> 
> Now on a side note, all you so called inspectors, master electricians and those of you who work for EC&M, if you read my original post I stated that the grounds needed to be separated etc. etc. etc.
> ...


 


If you leave the bond in the panel, rather than doing things correctly, and some point in the future, the grounded conductor becomes loose, EVERY SINGLE metallic part in the entire home that is connected to the EGC's will become elevated to full line potential.


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

brian john said:


> You could be placing current on any metallic components that are bonded in the house.


Brian, maybe if this is explained to Salvatoreg, he would understand.

OK, Mcclary just did.


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

Roger123 said:


> Brian, maybe if this is explained to Salvatoreg, he would understand.
> 
> OK, Mcclary just did.


So when we install a residential 200amp main breaker panel and land all the EGC's on the neutral bar can't the same happen. That is permissible by code. And we bond all out GEC's to the neutral.

Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> So when we install a residential 200amp main breaker panel and land all the EGC's on the neutral bar can't the same happen. That is permissible by code. And we bond all out GEC's to the neutral.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


Well to tell you the truth Sal, I don't know how that works and it has been one of my questions. Maybe someone can help both of us. However, I also believe your stated install is a violation.


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## Bulldog1 (Oct 21, 2011)

Roger123 said:


> Well to tell you the truth Sal, I don't know how that works and it has been one of my questions. Maybe someone can help both of us. However, I also believe your stated install is a violation.


Draw it out.....


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> Now on a side note, all you so called inspectors, master electricians and those of you who work for EC&M, if you read my original post I stated that the *grounds needed to be separated etc. etc. etc.*


I did read your original post and still don't understand your logic or lack there of.

Just so I get it straight in my mind... you knew that the separation was required but you vindicate yourself in the fact that your "so called inspector" said it was OK?

Why don't you go back to the install and do what you claim to know is the right way since you intended to do that in the first place? Just because the inspector "passed" your install still does not make it code compliant.

Pete

I edit to add that if this inspector is playing the 90.4 card he is giving you "special permission" and if you didn't get that in writing, as to the specific code sections that are being waived, you really don't have any legal backing.


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

Roger123 said:


> Well to tell you the truth Sal, I don't know how that works and it has been one of my questions. Maybe someone can help both of us. However, I also believe your stated install is a violation.


When was the last time, that you separated all the EGC's and added a grd detail bar where the panel breaker is the main disconnect. Every new home we have done we always share the neutral bar with the EGC's. The water main ground and the GEC must be bonded to the neutral by code and the grn screw must bond the panel enclosure. This is not a non complaint install. 
Thank you for your honesty.

Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> When was the last time, that you separated all the EGC's and added a grd detail bar where the panel breaker is the main disconnect. Every new home we have done we always share the neutral bar with the EGC's. The water main ground and the GEC must be bonded to the neutral by code and the grn screw must bond the panel enclosure. This is not a non complaint install.
> Thank you for your honesty.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


 
EVERYTHING in this entire sentance is 100% correct in regards to a SERVICE PANEL. 

What you are failing to realize is after adding the transfer switch, that panel is NO LONGER a service panel. All of the above would take place at the transfer switch.


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

mcclary's electrical said:


> EVERYTHING in this entire sentance is 100% correct in regards to a SERVICE PANEL.
> 
> What you are failing to realize is after adding the transfer switch, that panel is NO LONGER a service panel. All of the above would take place at the transfer switch.


We are going off topic now. Stick with what I said. 
Thank you for your Irish Spirit.

Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> We are going off topic now. Stick with what I said.
> Thank you for your Irish Spirit.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


 
I'm 100% sure you're playing us now. Nobody can be this dumb.


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> We are going off topic now. Stick with what I said.


Lets get back "on topic" then...


*250.24(A)(5) Load-Side Grounding Connections. 
*A grounded conductor
*shall not be connected* to normally non–currentcarrying
metal parts of equipment, to equipment grounding
conductor(s), or be reconnected to ground on the load side
of the service disconnecting means except as otherwise permitted
in this article.​
Informational Note: See 250.30 for separately derived systems,
250.32 for connections at separate buildings or structures,
and 250.142 for use of the grounded circuit conductor​for grounding equipment.

If you install a service rated transfer switch on the load side of the meter it becomes the SERVICE DISCONNECT.

What about that code section do you not understand?

Pete
​


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

Pete m. said:


> I did read your original post and still don't understand your logic or lack there of.
> 
> Just so I get it straight in my mind... you knew that the separation was required but you vindicate yourself in the fact that your "so called inspector" said it was OK?
> 
> ...


Oh, believe I will. 

But, we question them we think and install is correct when in fact it's not, now he's telling me to do something non complaint. There's a reason behind why he feels strongly about this. 
If, the neutral connection would be lost everything to grd would could back to the generator. Doesn't the AHJ have the right to enforce and not enforce certain sections and areas of the NEC????

Seriously has anyone ever thought of that?

Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> Oh, believe I will.
> 
> But, we question them we think and install is correct when in fact it's not, now he's telling me to do something non complaint. There's a reason behind why he feels strongly about this.
> If, the neutral connection would be lost everything to grd would could back to the generator. Doesn't the AHJ have the right to enforce and not enforce certain sections and areas of the NEC????
> ...


 

*90.4 Enforcement. *​ 
​​By special permission, the authority having jurisdiction​

may waive specific requirements in this 
_Code _or permit
alternative methods where it is assured that equivalent objectives
can be achieved by establishing and maintaining
effective safety.​ 
Yes, the AHJ can choose to waive specific requirements where it is assured that equivalent safety objectives can be met. That is done through "special permission". That is also why I told you to get it in writing from this inspector. If you choose not to press this issue my advice (not that you asked) would be to go back to your installation and make it code compliant, inspector be damned. 'Nuff said.​ 
Pete ​​


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

As Pete stated above or in lieu of that you could leave this as is. And if something should happen you livelihood is on the line.

In a court of law you would lose, inspector or not. If he admits he allowed this installation you and the county would be sued. If he denied passing the job you would be sued.

Either way your tushie is on the line. 

While I am no NEC expert I know a bit about grounding and have been to court as an expert witness. While you enjoy playing with us here, in court your head would be handed to you in a bucket.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

An interesting thread indeed.

1st, I agree the OP install is in violation of the NEC.

Now, although it is, I really don't see the big deal (from an electrical standpoint). The argument thrown out there that if the neutral came loose at the panel that all the bonded metal parts would elevate in voltage is the same with our without the transfer switch. 

The problem is you now have a parallel path for neutral current from the 1st means of disconnect (the new ATS) to the main panel (if there were separate neutral and ground conductors to the main panel). If the feeder from the ATS to the main panel is SEU or PVC conduit, I really don't see what the big deal is. If it's metal conduit, then that's a different story.

Yes, it's not in compliance with the NEC, but I need some serious explanation as to why it is a safety issue (sorry, but Jerry's argument does not hold water). This is all assuming I understand this project correctly.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

hardworkingstiff said:


> An interesting thread indeed.
> 
> 1st, I agree the OP install is in violation of the NEC.
> 
> ...


 


There's nothing questionable about it. 

Open neutral = 120 volt potential on that neutral
That neutral bonded to the EGC = every metallic part of the equipment raised to 120 volt potential. No way around it.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

mcclary's electrical said:


> There's nothing questionable about it.
> 
> Open neutral = 120 volt potential on that neutral
> That neutral bonded to the EGC = every metallic part of the equipment raised to 120 volt potential. No way around it.


How does it change if the transfer switch is not installed?


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

hardworkingstiff said:


> An interesting thread indeed.
> 
> 1st, I agree the OP install is in violation of the NEC.
> 
> ...


Thank god there is light at the end of the tunnel. I took the service entrance conductors and directly installed them into the ATS from the ATS to the panel is PVC with only 3 conductors. 
I appreciate your honesty and I have not denied that this install is complaint. I'm simply stating that the inspector sees no need to separate all grounds. 
MAY YOU HAVE A BLESSED HOLIDAY.

Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

Picture of install

Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> Picture of install
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


OK, 

Now I'm confused, this is not what I envisioned from your OP.

Where is the service disconnect? 2-panels? Both MB and are they the service disconnects? Is one fed from the other?

How about explaining the service entry circuitry in a little more detail please.


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

hardworkingstiff said:


> OK,
> 
> Now I'm confused, this is not what I envisioned from your OP.
> 
> ...


Each panel has a 200amp main breaker the junction box has two sets of 4/0 for each panel. 400amp service.

Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

I have absolutely no idea what's going on.

Are your neutrals and equipment grounds tied together in more than one spot? If the answer is "yes" then it's wrong, and it will still be wrong in another six pages.

-John


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

OK, so you are bringing in 2 sets of service entrance conductors w/out overcurrent protection into a junction box, then sending one set to a panel with a main breaker, then sending a 2nd set to a transfer switch (which is not service rated?) then to the 2nd panel with a main breaker?

That's an awful lot of unprotected wiring.

So, how did you bond that metal junction box?

Is that junction box sized adequately? 314.28(2)


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

hardworkingstiff said:


> OK, so you are bringing in 2 sets of service entrance conductors w/out overcurrent protection into a junction box, then sending one set to a panel with a main breaker, then sending a 2nd set to a transfer switch (which is not service rated?) then to the 2nd panel with a main breaker?
> 
> That's an awful lot of unprotected wiring.
> 
> ...


The ATS is service rated. The junction box was approved when the house was built.

Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

hardworkingstiff said:


> OK, so you are bringing in 2 sets of service entrance conductors w/out overcurrent protection into a junction box, then sending one set to a panel with a main breaker, then sending a 2nd set to a transfer switch (which is not service rated?) then to the 2nd panel with a main breaker?
> 
> That's an awful lot of unprotected wiring.
> 
> ...


Now it's bond thru the ATS where as before it wasn't

Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> The ATS is service rated. The junction box was approved when the house was built.



The ATS has overcurrent protection for the conductors? It also has a manual "off".

OK, the JB was approved when it was built, but you worked in it and added a conduit, so my question still is unanswered.


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## Fibes (Feb 18, 2010)

So what we are seeing is the service rated ATS under the J box, is this correct?


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

Fibes said:


> So what we are seeing is the service rated ATS under the J box, is this correct?


That's the way I understand it.


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

hardworkingstiff said:


> The ATS has overcurrent protection for the conductors? It also has a manual "off".
> 
> OK, the JB was approved when it was built, but you worked in it and added a conduit, so my question still is unanswered.


I said it was bonded using a 2"metal nipple to the ATS enclosure which the noodle is bonded to the enclosure.

Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

Well, I doubt you would have gotten that job passed around here.


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## Roger. (Dec 18, 2011)

hardworkingstiff said:


> That's the way I understand it.


Hmmmm, the OP originally said it was under the meter in post #1.



Salvatoreg02 said:


> The transfer switch was located outdoors and with inches of meter pan.


Roger


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> Picture of install
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


 
Just correct moi at the moment ., the large junction box on the right side of the panel that housed the sets of service entrance cable ?

If you did have two set of the Service entrance cable then you have one set run thru the one of the panel box to the panel box on the left if so IMO that will not fly very well I know it may approved that time but with modern code that change a bit. ( It will never fly in France at all that is a major no-no on that one )

Second thing it kinda bother me about the bonding if you did bonded at the ATS location then the panel at the left it have to be unbonded as other members mention very clear on that.

The last thing do you know what the AIC rating on that transfer panel ??

Merci,
Marc


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Big John said:


> I have absolutely no idea what's going on.


Neither does the guy installing it.


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