# 442A to 309A possible?



## Thimper

To start with, I was originally looking for a 309A apprenticeship in my area but was having a tough time finding one. Eventually I Landed a job a city over and got an apprenticeship as a 442A apprentice and had 2 years of schooling exempted from my apprenticeship. My question is, Is it possible for an industrial apprentice to switch over to a 309A apprenticeship. If it is possible, would it be possible to retain the hours and exempted schooling from my 442A apprenticeship. One last question I would have is in the case it is possible, would any form of certification or training make me stand out as a candidate for a 309 apprentiship opportunity?

Thank you for your time.


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## Navyguy

The schooling for the 309 and the 442 is the same except for the last term. The issue really is your hours in the field. If you don't have "309 hours", with a 309 contractor your schooling is moot.

Cheers
John


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## Thimper

Thanks for the response. I will likely keep applying to 309 apprentice jobs in hopes someone will take me on. Oddly enough I am paired with a 309A electrician at my facility but only do 442a apprenticeship. Once I get my 442 license is it possible to challenge the 309 exam?


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## Navyguy

You can challenge the 309 exam if you have proven 309 hours. Remember that a 309 can do 442 work but not he other way around. Technically as a 442 apprentice you cannot even do 309 hours, but that is a relatively easy fix between your employer and the ministry.

Cheers
John


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## MoscaFibra

Honestly, let me know how it works out. I have asked a few times, even got the paper work to sign up for my 309 but the ministry never put it through and I ended up back in the steel mills. I am even to this day considering going back after my 309, just to have the ability to go anywhere.


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## u2slow

How many provinces define this 309 vs 442 stuff? Could somebody get out-of-province hours to count in a province that wasn't picky? We're all shooting for a Red Seal anyway....


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## eddy current

u2slow said:


> How many provinces define this 309 vs 442 stuff? Could somebody get out-of-province hours to count in a province that wasn't picky? We're all shooting for a Red Seal anyway....


309A (construction and maintenance electrician) and 442A (industrial electrician) is Ontario only. Other provinces have the same, but call them different things. 

Most provinces will allow you to challenge their exams, but you need to prove that you have experience in that field, not schooling. In Ontario they won’t allow you to write the construction and maintenance exam if you only have industrial experience for instance. Same the other way, can’t write the industrial exam if you don’t have industrial experience. 

Challenging the exams is meant more for someone who was an electrician in another country, has the experience but not the training here.


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## u2slow

@eddy current thats the reason I pose the suggestion. BC didn't have a construction vs industrial distinction until recently. Besides what I've read here for Ontario, I don't know what the other provinces do.


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## Bahd

I am an apprentice in Ontario also going through the same thing. I'm looking to switch because there are only a handful of schools that provide schooling for 442A in my area. Kingston is the closes at about a 45 minute drive, but only day release (blah). Humber is the other way at 1.25 hours plus traffic. I really enjoy the industrial work and don't see myself going into residential so 442A is better suited for me. We need to get these classes in Fleming and Durham.


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## Navyguy

Niagara has just started offering 442 in a night school this coming year (which basically is Level III). I don't think there has been much demand until recently and it is fairly expensive to get a program approved and running for only a few students at a time. I suspect once the night school option runs a few terms, Niagara will start offering it in block release (Level III), since that is the only portion that is different from the 309, which is basically only the fluid power vs the print reading.

Cheers
John


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## eddy current

So a 442A license is not compulsory in Ontario meaning anyone can do industrial electrical work without being an apprentice or a license holder. 

Then why take the apprenticeship at all? 

Does someone who holds this voluntary license actually get paid more than someone who doesn’t have it ?


To me it’s the same as the 631A (Network cabling) or the general carpenters licence. Both are just voluntary trades so anyone can do that work and very few have the useless license


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## u2slow

eddy current said:


> Does someone who holds this voluntary license actually get paid more than someone who doesn’t have it ?


Correct - many companies won't hire or pay journeyman rate without the qualification.


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## eddy current

u2slow said:


> Correct - many companies won't hire or pay journeyman rate without the qualification.


And many other companies don’t have a single employee in their factory with the qualification because it is not required.


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## emtnut

Any good company I know of, requires the Industrial. Most hire on it, or for an in-house promotion they will sometimes train on the job but still require you to write the exam after you get your hours.
The employer is required to have 'competent workers' under the OHSA, the Industrial Electrician satisfies that.

Any jobs in the Auto sector (Honda GM etc) require a 309A along with the 442A. The beer factories too.
Some even want Electrical or Electronic Technician/Technologist diplomas along with a 442A.

All big buck great benefit Jobs.


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## MoscaFibra

emtnut said:


> Any good company I know of, requires the Industrial. Most hire on it, or for an in-house promotion they will sometimes train on the job but still require you to write the exam after you get your hours.
> The employer is required to have 'competent workers' under the OHSA, the Industrial Electrician satisfies that.
> 
> Any jobs in the Auto sector (Honda GM etc) require a 309A along with the 442A. The beer factories too.
> Some even want Electrical or Electronic Technician/Technologist diplomas along with a 442A.
> 
> All big buck great benefit Jobs.


The big trade off with the 442 vs the 309 is shift work. You make a good wage with decent benefits (The old guards, honda / toyota / dofasco aren't keeping up with the increases), but I find once you are licensed (I am a 442A holder) you quickly become pigeon holed into the trouble shooting side of things, which means nights and weekends (and often fuse / breaker issues for operators). I find most of my 309 or substation friends pretty much work banker hours Monday to Friday(pretty much).

any factory I have been in, that has more than a couple dozen people hires a 442A to do their electrical. Once upon a time they wouldn't even entertain a 309 to do their maintenance work, but there are not enough Electricians around to do all the work. My current employer can't even seem to find a millwright to work days for them.


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## Bahd

A fellow apprentice who is a few months ahead of me was in contact with the college of trades and some other sort of goverement enity, (I'm assuming the ministry of skilled trades), about switching from 442A to 309A. They got back to them today and denied the request citing "safety". Now I get they are different fields of work and experience in said field is absolutly nessecary, but queue the small rant....the amount of safety training I've taken over the last 3 years for lockout/tagout, arcflash, working at hieghts, crane, tool sefety, and every other safety cert under the sun doesn't make me a competent person to work as a 309A according to the COT has me wondering.


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## u2slow

Gov't policy is what it is. Fat chance having it changed after. 

However, I could see employers being able to define the hours industrial or construction, depending on the jobsite.


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## emtnut

Bahd said:


> A fellow apprentice who is a few months ahead of me was in contact with the college of trades and some other sort of goverement enity, (I'm assuming the ministry of skilled trades), about switching from 442A to 309A. They got back to them today and denied the request citing "safety". Now I get they are different fields of work and experience in said field is absolutly nessecary, but queue the small rant....the amount of safety training I've taken over the last 3 years for lockout/tagout, arcflash, working at hieghts, crane, tool sefety, and every other safety cert under the sun doesn't make me a competent person to work as a 309A according to the COT has me wondering.


I'd think they were saying electrical safety, as in being able to properly wire a house.

Sorry, but I wouldn't want a guy that was only exposed to Industrial to wire MY house.
(maybe me, but I'm special 😂 )


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## MoscaFibra

emtnut said:


> I'd think they were saying electrical safety, as in being able to properly wire a house.
> 
> Sorry, but I wouldn't want a guy that was only exposed to Industrial to wire MY house.
> (maybe me, but I'm special 😂 )


Or only commercial installs, or anything else except residential experience. This is the one thing I have struggled with in the trades. I am pigeon holed into my experience. I get paid well to use that experience. I would like to do other things, (even if means less pay) to get more experience, to do more (variety is the spice of life). I do not find out college or whatever tf they are called now gives any help in trying to explore that path. 

First time I called about starting a 309 apprenticeship AFTER having my 442 done, was no it can't be done go start over nothing counts. 

Then I got hired by a contactor, and I was told 2 years worth of hours, last year of trade school. 

Once I even got told to come in, I could just challenge the exam (that one worried me, she did not know what she was talking about) 

Moral of the story, no one knows, and they do what they want. Good luck I hope you make it through. Mainly, if you have a j-man with his 309 and you can convince them you are getting commercial experience they might sign you over.


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## Navyguy

I agree that there likely is inconsistent approach to this, although there should not be. Ultimately in the end it boils down to two things:

1. Can you find a 309 employer that has room for an apprentice; and
2. Is the employer going to support you in recognizing your 442 hours to some extent.

If you can't get #1, then #2 does not matter. Now #2 is a negotiation of sorts. The only thing that is not negotiated is the schooling, since Level 1 and 2 schooling is the same, most of Level 3 is also, so there is s direct credit for that portion.

As am employer, I would want to see your skills in the 309 area of expertise before I committed to crediting you any 309 hours, but to be fair, things like using tools, making connections, pulling wire in conduit should be all the same; so there is room to discuss.

To put it in perspective, if you have been doing conduit work and pulling wire for 25 years, and that is all you do, that is not 25 years of experience. That is 1 year of experience repeated 25 times. If all you do is wire new houses for 25 years, that is not 25 years of experience either.

Cheers
John


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## Bahd

emtnut said:


> I'd think they were saying electrical safety, as in being able to properly wire a house.
> 
> Sorry, but I wouldn't want a guy that was only exposed to Industrial to wire MY house.
> (maybe me, but I'm special 😂 )


I 100% agree with you. I just think there needs to be a better way for a 442A to aquire 309A as well without starting at zero hours. 309 has an easy path into 442 as they can just work what ever, and I might argue the same electrical safety concerns for someone who has only ever worked residential coming into an industrial setting.


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## Klein Electrical

Thimper said:


> To start with, I was originally looking for a 309A apprenticeship in my area but was having a tough time finding one. Eventually I Landed a job a city over and got an apprenticeship as a 442A apprentice and had 2 years of schooling exempted from my apprenticeship. My question is, Is it possible for an industrial apprentice to switch over to a 309A apprenticeship. If it is possible, would it be possible to retain the hours and exempted schooling from my 442A apprenticeship. One last question I would have is in the case it is possible, would any form of certification or training make me stand out as a candidate for a 309 apprentiship opportunity?
> 
> Thank you for your time.


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## Navyguy

Bahd said:


> I 100% agree with you. I just think there needs to be a better way for a 442A to aquire 309A as well without starting at zero hours. 309 has an easy path into 442 as they can just work what ever, and I might argue the same electrical safety concerns for someone who has only ever worked residential coming into an industrial setting.


I think the point you are missing is that the 309 is a compulsory trade and the 442 is not. There is no guarantee that any 442 even went to school or completed any formal training, since it is not required.

From the 442A training standard


> Restricted Skill Sets This program does not contain any restricted skill sets as per Ontario Regulation 565/99, Restricted Skill Sets. Therefore, an individual is not required to be registered apprentice or possess certification in order to perform skills contained in the program.


Cheers
John


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## MoscaFibra

Navyguy said:


> I think the point you are missing is that the 309 is a compulsory trade and the 442 is not. There is no guarantee that any 442 even went to school or completed any formal training, since it is not required.
> 
> From the 442A training standard
> 
> 
> Cheers
> John


Funny, before I was allowed to write I had to come up with a book signed off, and a letter of hours complete from multiple employer's as well as documents complete showing my schooling as well. They would not let me challenge regardless of what that training standard says. And they gave me grief for my journeyman writing NA on a bunch of things that we would never touch. 

Compulsory or not, as soon as you are an apprentice in the system you need to show proof of completion, and they would not just let me challenge it. I don't know in which situation they just let you challenge it as I have never seen it happen with anyone I know in the trades.


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## Navyguy

Typically a straight up "challenge" comes mostly from international people trying to gain equivalency to the 442 (or whatever trade). They are "proving their hours and "equivalency" based on the documents they bring with them, so in some ways it is no different they what you had to go through. Regardless of trade, you cannot simply "challenge" based on a "book" experience. That is why the CofQ has both code and workplace questions. We are electricians, not code regurgitators.

I have written NA in boxes for apprentices before, no issue. As an example I do not do High Voltage, so it is NA in anything related to High Voltage.

Cheers
John


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## MoscaFibra

Navyguy said:


> Typically a straight up "challenge" comes mostly from international people trying to gain equivalency to the 442 (or whatever trade). They are "proving their hours and "equivalency" based on the documents they bring with them, so in some ways it is no different they what you had to go through. Regardless of trade, you cannot simply "challenge" based on a "book" experience. That is why the CofQ has both code and workplace questions. We are electricians, not code regurgitators.
> 
> I have written NA in boxes for apprentices before, no issue. As an example I do not do High Voltage, so it is NA in anything related to High Voltage.
> 
> Cheers
> John


lol there was no issue for my journeyman when I wrote either, I just got to listen to the ministry's diatribe of how he didn't appreciate it. 



> Restricted Skill Sets This program does not contain any restricted skill sets as per Ontario Regulation 565/99, Restricted Skill Sets. Therefore, an individual is not required to be registered apprentice or possess certification in order to perform skills contained in the program.


Basically this means, I should have been able to write regardless of what they say, if its not compulsory or regulated. Nothings restricted.

If they are going to acknowledge certain aspects of training, hands on and otherwise, they should be able to draw certain parallels to the trade and the equivalent to it. That would lead to a certain and clear pathway for one aspect of the trade to transition to another. I am pretty sure that's all the OP is saying, and that is all I am saying. It's not that difficult for them to do with other trades (Doctors in their specialties for example) I don't think its too much to ask here either.


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## emtnut

Navyguy said:


> I think the point you are missing is that the 309 is a compulsory trade and the 442 is not. There is no guarantee that any 442 even went to school or completed any formal training, since it is not required.


Although that statement is somewhat true, you still need to have a book filled out with your hours to get the 442. It has to have a percentage of work in the various areas required, and signed off by the forman/supervisor.

I've seen my share of 309's with eyes popped out when they are doing industrial, even though they had formal training and the schooling.


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## u2slow

Navyguy said:


> I think the point you are missing is that the 309 is a compulsory trade and the 442 is not. There is no guarantee that any 442 even went to school or completed any formal training, since it is not required.


Is there a significant wage/opportunity rift between the two in Ontario? A case of the grass looking greener with 309?

Call me backwards, but I'm glad I left Code and construction behind...


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## MoscaFibra

u2slow said:


> Is there a significant wage/opportunity rift between the two in Ontario? A case of the grass looking greener with 309?
> 
> Call me backwards, but I'm glad I left Code and construction behind...


Yes, and generally in favor of the industrial side lol. The trade off in my side of the trade is, you make more money BUT most of the jobs are shift. I suppose this is a lot of grass is greener for me. Or feeling like I am missing part of a trade I enjoy, variety and all that. If I was to try and do my own gig, I am pretty much relegated to PLC programming and the such.


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## Navyguy

u2slow said:


> Is there a significant wage/opportunity rift between the two in Ontario? A case of the grass looking greener with 309?
> 
> Call me backwards, but I'm glad I left Code and construction behind...


I am not sure to be honest. I think a majority of the 442 guys will be in some sort of union / association so they may have some better wages and benefits. Having said that, I have worked for years in plants, doing construction, doing repairs / maintenance and filling in for when the regular electricians are away; I find it very repetitive work and once you are over the initial hump of figuring out the different machine's personalities you are marking time.

Now unless your company is very proactive (doing upgrades, line rebuilds, etc) you just sit in the shop and wait for the buzzer to ring. I really like control work, building panels, etc but it is something I don't get to do much anymore.

Most 309 guys are on construction sites and are going at generally pretty fast pace. Some will be union, but I would guess most are not, and the 309 guys tend to move from contractor to contractor. Work, in general is weather dependent, more work and lot so of overtime in the summer, lay off in the winter.

So I can't say that a 309 guy makes more or less money then a 442, I think if a 309 guy can get on a company that is busy all year and pays well, I think they would make more then a typical maintenance electrician in a factory.

Cheers
John


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## u2slow

Navyguy said:


> Now unless your company is very proactive (doing upgrades, line rebuilds, etc) you just sit in the shop and wait for the buzzer to ring. I really like control work, building panels, etc but it is something I don't get to do much anymore.
> 
> Most 309 guys are on construction sites and are going at generally pretty fast pace. Some will be union, but I would guess most are not, and the 309 guys tend to move from contractor to contractor. Work, in general is weather dependent, more work and lot so of overtime in the summer, lay off in the winter.
> 
> So I can't say that a 309 guy makes more or less money then a 442, I think if a 309 guy can get on a company that is busy all year and pays well, I think they would make more then a typical maintenance electrician in a factory.


My experience with construction (in BC, mostly union) is very, very minimal overtime. The strategy is all about maximizing straight-time hours. Instead, sites are crewed up to get more work done. Layoffs and work shortages still come in the winter. Self-employment looks simplistic on the surface - the majority do not succeed. This would be my caution for the guys thinking the 309 is superior.

I suppose the flipside is I don't know exactly what scope of work the 442 restricts you to. Can you not work as a journeyman for a company that has a 309 primary-license-holder?


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## Navyguy

Restrictions are fairly clear. A 442 can only work in an industrial maintenance environment. Now as a contractor, if I have a contract that is in that environment I can use 442 guys, but I can also use a 309 guy, so generally there is no advantage for a contractor to have 442 guys when he can have 309 guys anywhere he needs them.

Historically the 442 was a method for the auto manufacturers et al to allow personnel to move between plants / companies. Well before my time, there were GM electricians, Ford electricians, etc and one was not recognized in the other. Then you start to add in all the spin-off companies and they could only have a a "factory-trained" guy work on their equipment for whatever company they were doing the work for. The implementation of the 442 eliminated that and now a 442 can move between auto, food, forging, mining, etc.

There is no doubt that an experienced 442 can run circles around a 309 when it comes to the maintenance and most troubleshooting in that environment. But again that is experience and not schooling / education. It is no different then a 309 could probably run circles around a 442 when it comes to construction / code; that is simply because of the experience they have.

Cheers
John


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## MoscaFibra

I have actually worked in both fields, Working with a contractor on my last attempt to try out the 309 side of life. I was marked under as an apprentice for some jobs(construction) but mostly as a JM in industrial plants helping troubleshoot. As for wages, at the time it was pretty straight forward -

IBEW makes the best money straight time in construction. Here right now it is roughly an average $40 an hour (I believe it is technically $42/hour but the steel plants negotiated a $40/hr contract with them somehow). Gross per year tends to fall into the 80-100 a year range for most of the guys I know in the hall that had a steady gig (Not saying never laid off, but generally working). Slower years, obviously less. Overtime is frowned upon, but I personally am ok with that. 

Non-union and resi guys were generally being posted around the 28-30$ mark. When I worked with New Electric most of our JM were saying 85-95 a year, but there was a ton of overtime. And you were expected to work said overtime. Some travel but not as bad as working for Siemens. Most of the journeymen were making around the $30-32 an hour mark. A couple of our specialist (we literally had an electronics expert who could repair any drive, and resolder chips onto it) that was making $38.

For the most part, it seems those in industrial plants were being posted $35-$38 (mainly automotive and steel in this area driving that number). Mandatory overtime being enforced in those places too. 

This year, my old numbers seem to mean nothing. I have seen a 2 non-union commercial shops posting jobs looking for journeymen (kraun electric, CLAC, arthur electric) with their numbers being $35-$38 an hour for resi/commercial work. The plants I was in were offering about the same or less. I expect those rates to go up in those plants as well, as it gets harder to find people. 

Toyota, Honda, Ford, all post jobs at $42 an hour, most of the guys I know who do or have worked in there clear about $120 a year. Dofasco and the steel plants around here tend to clear about 90-100 a year. The guys I know in the IBEW tend to do about $90-100 on a regular year, 150+ on really busy years, I know a few who did only 50-60 all last year. 

Funny thing, when I talk to my friends in the IBEW they tell me to stay away from the hall moving forward. Apparently the training isn't what it used too be, nor is the workload. 

Moral of this ridiculously long post, You can make more in the industrial side(in my opinion), but you work more hours to make it. Otherwise I would say they are pretty much equal in my experience. I do agree with navyguy though, sitting around waiting for things to break sure gets boring fast. I find troubleshooting a big rush when you fix things, but I've been in plants where you are told to sit in the corner and wait until called upon.


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## u2slow

Appreciate the explanation. Didn't realize the 442 was restrictive at the journeyman level too - not just contractor. That doesn't exist in BC as far as I know.

Our rate is $42.65/h on shore and $45.27/h +27% onboard ship. Its union, but not IBEW. Guys are not waiting for stuff to break... always work to do.


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## Navyguy

I really enjoyed doing electrical on the ships / rigs here in Ontario. Having sailed a bit out of Esquimalt, I enjoyed hanging around the electricians, but I had other duties in other places, so it was never a job for me out West.

Cheers
John


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## MoscaFibra

u2slow said:


> Appreciate the explanation. Didn't realize the 442 was restrictive at the journeyman level too - not just contractor. That doesn't exist in BC as far as I know.
> 
> Our rate is $42.65/h on shore and $45.27/h +27% onboard ship. Its union, but not IBEW. Guys are not waiting for stuff to break... always work to do.


From what I have been Told, BC, Alberta and I believe Saskatchewan all only have 1 license. You are either an electrician or not. Nobody was expected to do everything with that license, just that you could get what you needed. 

Sounds like wages are pretty similar for the most part though. My only union job paid on tonnage, and was pretty close to $40 an hour when things were running. Not IBEW either, but probably one of the least "union" places I have ever worked. Millwrights would teach me how to torch and weld. It was fun. 

My last plant was very proud on being non union. But that was the most "union" environment I have ever been in. I don't think I have ever heard so many "not my jobs" as I did in there. But this will start another conversation altogether so I will nip that one right there and say that is my only word on it lol.


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## MoscaFibra

In case you were wondering, I reached out to the ministry for more info. this is what I was sent.


Thank you for your email.

If you are a 442A holding a Certificate of Qualification (red seal) you can bypass the apprenticeship process and apply for a Trade Equivalency Assessment with the Ontario College of Trades to request to write the 309A trade examination. Please see the attached link: Ontario College of Trades » Trade Equivalency Assessment & Credential Recognition

If you wish to start a 309A apprenticeship, some schooling and some hours from 442A maybe able to count towards this trade but that conversation will happen between the Employment and Training Consultant, the sponsor and yourself where you are hired on. This discussion regarding hours credited is not started before you have found a sponsor. Once you have found a employer that is willing to be your apprentice sponsor, please complete the attached link:  https://www.eoss.tcu.gov.on.ca/AOL/training/prerequirements

For information about the apprenticeship process please visit https://www.ontario.ca/page/skilled-trades

All the best,

It is actually consistent with what I was told last time to, so that's a nice change.


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## Jose K. Ovalle

Navyguy said:


> I agree that there likely is inconsistent approach to this, although there should not be. Ultimately in the end it boils down to two things:
> 
> 1. Can you find a 309 employer that has room for an apprentice; and
> 2. Is the employer going to support you in recognizing your 442 hours to some extent.
> 
> If you can't get #1, then #2 does not matter. Now #2 is a negotiation of sorts. The only thing that is not negotiated is the schooling, since Level 1 and 2 schooling is the same, most of Level 3 is also, so there is s direct credit for that portion.
> 
> As am employer, I would want to see your skills in the 309 area of expertise before I committed to crediting you any 309 hours, but to be fair, things like using tools, making connections, pulling wire in conduit should be all the same; so there is room to discuss.
> 
> To put it in perspective, if you have been doing conduit work and pulling wire for 25 years, and that is all you do, that is not 25 years of experience. That is 1 year of experience repeated 25 times. If all you do is wire new houses for 25 years, that is not 25 years of experience either.
> 
> Cheers
> John


Good information.


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## Corporate_Big_Shot

If you are starting out as a 442a apprentice and have a job to complete your work experience requirement, then stay there and finish that. Once you get your 442a ticket, you can start to think about the 309a and how to get it. You can also complete your Master's electrician certificate after your 442a.


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## Navyguy

That is true about the Master, but it does nothing for you really unless you want to go out on your own. Even then, if you are a 442 Master you need to hire 309 people to do your work. ESA might limit your ability to obtain permits to industrial also based on the Master Designation. I am not sure what happens if you get a 442 Master, then you want to get a 309 Master, never ran across that yet. It might be just administrative.

Cheers
John


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## maulik016

Navyguy said:


> That is true about the Master, but it does nothing for you really unless you want to go out on your own. Even then, if you are a 442 Master you need to hire 309 people to do your work. ESA might limit your ability to obtain permits to industrial also based on the Master Designation. I am not sure what happens if you get a 442 Master, then you want to get a 309 Master, never ran across that yet. It might be just administrative.
> 
> Cheers
> John


Hi if I have 442A and 309A then I can get my master electrician?


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## crosport

Navyguy said:


> I really enjoyed doing electrical on the ships / rigs here in Ontario. Having sailed a bit out of Esquimalt, I enjoyed hanging around the electricians, but I had other duties in other places, so it was never a job for me out West.
> 
> Cheers
> John


I sailed out of Esquimalt for 4 yrs.on the H.M.C.S. Kootenay.My trade was W.S. I became an electrician after the navy.


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