# "Questionable" LED Claims



## Ragin Cajun (Nov 20, 2013)

Saw an add in EC&M for:

​"450W design delivers up to 41,250 lumens and replaces up to a 1500W HID fixture"


Now that's ~92 Lu/w.

A 1500W HID lamp is ~120Lu/w giving 180,000 lumens. Even if in a fixture the net output is over 108,000 lumens, how on earth can the manufacturer claim that 41,250 lumens replaces 108,000???!!!

What a crock. 

Anybody else sick of these bogus LED claims?

RC


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

Ragin Cajun said:


> Saw an add in EC&M for:
> 
> "450W design delivers up to 41,250 lumens and replaces up to a 1500W HID fixture"
> 
> ...


Yes, they do not make any sense :no:


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

I have yet to put up an LED fixture that the customer does not like. 
Well, other than price.


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## 3xdad (Jan 25, 2011)

sbrn33 said:


> I have yet to put up an LED fixture that the customer does not like.
> Well, other than price.


Marketing matters.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

3xdad said:


> Marketing matters.


What does that mean?


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

sbrn33 said:


> I have yet to put up an LED fixture that the customer does not like.
> Well, other than price.


I believe everything I read on the internet too.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Ragin Cajun said:


> Saw an add in EC&M for:
> 
> ​"450W design delivers up to 41,250 lumens and replaces up to a 1500W HID fixture"
> 
> ...


Don't worry, the LED fanboys will be along shortly.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

MTW said:


> Don't worry, the LED fanboys will be along shortly.


I understand you are trying to start **** but what i said is true. Have you installed any LED fixtures in the last month or so.?


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

MTW said:


> I believe everything I read on the internet too.


I have no idea what you mean by this. are you drunk?


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## fargowires (Aug 26, 2010)

LED is something completely different from incandescent, halogen, florescent, HID. It is directional. And that means that much more of the lumens produced are directed to the work area, without being bounced around by reflectors and such. So, lumens/watt is no longer the point of comparison, much as "watts" is no longer the point of measure for light bulbs.
The important thing is usable lumens. At the work surface, on the floor, at the ceiling. LED products have an incredible advantage over other light sources in that all the light produces is directed to the work surface. No lost lumens due to reflection losses and dirt on the top of the T8 or HID lamp.
So, ABSOLUTELY, yes, a lesser lumens/watt LED may well provide much the same output as the best HID, T8, or T5HO. It depends on the lamp/fixture design, proper engineering, and fixture installation. LED will win. No doubt. Eventually.
Get used to it.


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

sbrn33 said:


> I have yet to put up an LED fixture that the customer does not like.
> Well, other than price.


I agree. Haven't had any customers complain about LED lighting.


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

fargowires said:


> LED is something completely different from incandescent, halogen, florescent, HID. It is directional.


They're all considerably different from each other aside from halogen and incandescent being very similar. 

MH, HPS and filament are direct emitters. 
MH, HPS are electric discharge lamps. 

Solid state fluorescent lamps and traditional electric discharge fluorescent lamps are fluorescent lamps. 

Most lighting LEDs are solid state fluorescent lamps 



fargowires said:


> And that means that much more of the lumens produced are directed to the work area, without being bounced around by reflectors and such. So, lumens/watt is no longer the point of comparison, much as "watts" is no longer the point of measure for light bulbs.


And they're hard lights that cast strong shadows like direct sunlight. Sometimes they form a dizzying annoying multi-faceted shadows. 



fargowires said:


> The important thing is usable lumens. At the work surface, on the floor, at the ceiling. LED products have an incredible advantage over other light sources in that all the light produces is directed to the work surface.


Lighting design often makes significant sacrifice in fixture efficiency in order to produce a diffuse light, because a razor sharp casting, rock hard, coherent light is undesirable in many applications.



> No lost lumens due to reflection losses and dirt on the top of the T8 or HID lamp.


but LEDs suffer substantially more performance loss over the useful life due to degradation of closely coupled fluorescent phosphors. 



> So, ABSOLUTELY, yes, a lesser lumens/watt LED may well provide much the same output as the best HID, T8, or T5HO. It depends on the lamp/fixture design, proper engineering, and fixture installation. LED will win. No doubt. Eventually.
> Get used to it.


Applications overlap, they don't displace others completely. 

Electric shavers : yes
electric/diesel trains: yes
jet fuel powered turbo prop household vacuum: no 
electric fighter jet: no 

Cost and durability matters.



sbrn33 said:


> I understand you are trying to start **** but what i said is true. Have you installed any LED fixtures in the last month or so.?


It's not about how they install or how they perform for a few weeks thereafter.


These are comparable expressions:
Up to, not exceeding, less than or equal to


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

sbrn33 said:


> I understand you are trying to start **** but what i said is true. Have you installed any LED fixtures in the last month or so.?


You're the same guy who believes in AFCI protection, so I see it's pretty easy to pull the wool over your eyes.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Chris1971 said:


> I agree. Haven't had any customers complain about LED lighting.


That's because they haven't been installed long enough for the failures to start occurring. :whistling2:


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

MTW said:


> You're the same guy who believes in AFCI protection, so I see it's pretty easy to pull the wool over your eyes.


Pretty much every single LED fixture I have put in has made the customer happy once they get over the price.
I understand you are trying to start **** but my customers are very, very happy with LED. If you are stuck in the 80's so be it.


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

sbrn33 said:


> Pretty much every single LED fixture I have put in has made the customer happy once they get over the price.
> I understand you are trying to start **** but my customers are very, very happy with LED. If you are stuck in the 80's so be it.


Some people can't aceept change and new technology. They'd rather try to sell a service upgrade to an Amish man.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

sbrn33 said:


> Pretty much every single LED fixture I have put in has made the customer happy once they get over the price.
> I understand you are trying to start **** but my customers are very, very happy with LED. If you are stuck in the 80's so be it.


I'll start believing in LED once manufacturers stop lying about their performance.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Chris1971 said:


> Some people can't aceept change and new technology. They'd rather try to sell a service upgrade to an Amish man.


Some people aren't gullible, and don't believe the lies being told by manufacturers seeking to make profit.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

MTW said:


> I'll start believing in LED once manufacturers stop lying about their performance.


What are you talking about???


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

MTW said:


> Some people aren't gullible, and don't believe the lies being told by manufacturers seeking to make profit.


Huh?:001_huh:


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

LED performance standards are forming shapes, but they're still in development. 

There are LM-79, LM-80, DLC and a few others I do not remember. The DLC tests each core LED modules, but not in a product or in a installed system. 

The life rating on LEDs are tested for 6,000 hrs and extrapolated. The slightest error during the testing can cause the slope to shoot through to the wrong place. So measurement accuracy and the quality of modeling both affects the forecasted life. 

Most LEDs just use the speculation to 30% decay, unless they specifically give another value. 

20,000 @ L90 isn't the same as 20,000 @ L70.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Electric_Light said:


> LED performance standards are forming shapes, but they're still in development.
> 
> There are LM-79, LM-80, DLC and a few others I do not remember. The DLC tests each core LED modules, but not in a product or in a installed system.
> 
> ...


You can quote all the studies and standards you want. All I know is I have yet to have a customer not like the LED fixtures that I have installed. Now when they don't last 600 years like I tell the customer I may have to answer some questions, I will just blame that on the POCO and sell some surge suppression and a new fixture.


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## mdnitedrftr (Aug 21, 2013)

sbrn33 said:


> I have yet to put up an LED fixture that the customer does not like.
> Well, other than price.


Same here. 

LED's are taking off with my customers.


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## Arrow3030 (Mar 12, 2014)

LED is the sexy new easy sell. Retro's are paying my bills and customers are happy.


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

sbrn33 said:


> You can quote all the studies and standards you want.


ummm, they're important points of reference. 

What does "up to 40 mpg" mean? Driving at 30 mph and starting the clock once you've reached speed and fully warmed up? Lack of mature standardization means each one will quote whatever they want. It's getting better, but this is still a problem. 



sbrn33 said:


> All I know is I have yet to have a customer not like the LED fixtures that I have installed.


Caving into feelings. 



sbrn33 said:


> Now when they don't last *600 years like I tell the customer* I may have to answer some questions


If it ain't in writing and backed up (if the consumer's credit rating is poor, require a cosigner; likewise if the LED retrofit sales company has not existed for that long, then insist on insured warranty. If you have a lot of negotiation power advantage, push for retainage)



sbrn33 said:


> I will just blame that on the POCO and sell some surge suppression and a new fixture.


Did you used to sell used cars? 



mdnitedrftr said:


> Same here.
> LED's are taking off with my customers.





Arrow3030 said:


> LED is the sexy new easy sell. Retro's are paying my bills and customers are happy.


Long term durability is of a major concern and only time will tell.


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## Arrow3030 (Mar 12, 2014)

I never suggest LED to the customer. I'd rather install flourescent. IMO flourescent is like having a 30+ year hard working dependable veteran in the field and an LED is the new kid on the block with a lot to prove.
My point is that people want LEDs and who am I to not give the customer what they want.
I will make more of an effort to clearly mention that claims of longevity should not be trusted since there's only one real way to test tim.
I actually go out of my way to tell customers that mr16 is a better looking light when applicable. I put 8 mr16 cans in my parents house 6 years ago and they run about four hours every night since and haven't had to change a bulb


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Arrow3030 said:


> I never suggest LED to the customer. I'd rather install flourescent. IMO flourescent is like having a 30+ year hard working dependable veteran in the field and an LED is the new kid on the block with a lot to prove.
> My point is that people want LEDs and who am I to not give the customer what they want.
> I will make more of an effort to clearly mention that claims of longevity should not be trusted since there's only one real way to test tim.
> I actually go out of my way to tell customers that mr16 is a better looking light when applicable. I put 8 mr16 cans in my parents house 6 years ago and they run about four hours every night since and haven't had to change a bulb


Just think, if you would have gone with LED those fixtures would probably be paid for.


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## Ragin Cajun (Nov 20, 2013)

I have specified LED fixtures, but very carefully. They are grossly over priced at this point in time and failures are there. I have T5HO dimmable in my own offuce and have no desire for LED. Harsh, you bet. "White" light, too white unless you hold the supplier's/contractor's feet to the fire not to use 4 or 5000degK color. Have one client pi$$ed of because they are "too bright"! I had them on a dimmer but he turns them up all the way. I had to allow for the huge drop in output over the lifetime. Would he listen to my explanation? Nope, he just thought I put in way too many fixtures. He went from wraparound fluorescent to recessed cans. Puke! Can's don't belong in an office, but he insisted!!! @#$%^&. They have their place, but have a long way to go yet. RC


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Ragin Cajun said:


> I have specified LED fixtures, but very carefully. They are grossly over priced at this point in time and failures are there. I have T5HO dimmable in my own offuce and have no desire for LED. Harsh, you bet. "White" light, too white unless you hold the supplier's/contractor's feet to the fire not to use 4 or 5000degK color. Have one client pi$$ed of because they are "too bright"! I had them on a dimmer but he turns them up all the way. I had to allow for the huge drop in output over the lifetime. Would he listen to my explanation? Nope, he just thought I put in way too many fixtures. He went from wraparound fluorescent to recessed cans. Puke! Can's don't belong in an office, but he insisted!!! @#$%^&. They have their place, but have a long way to go yet. RC


Actually cans in an office are probably better than wraps when it comes to screen glare and other thinks like looks and power consumption.


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

Arrow3030 said:


> I never suggest LED to the customer. I'd rather install flourescent. IMO flourescent is like having a 30+ year hard working dependable veteran in the field and an LED is the new kid on the block with a lot to prove.
> My point is that people want LEDs and who am I to not give the customer what they want.
> I will make more of an effort to clearly mention that claims of longevity should not be trusted since there's only one real way to test tim.
> I actually go out of my way to tell customers that mr16 is a better looking light when applicable. I put 8 mr16 cans in my parents house 6 years ago and they run about four hours every night since and haven't had to change a bulb


You could compare LEDs offered by recruiters with promises of lower dollars per hour rate, but requires you to front an outrageous amount upfront, no refund, no performance guarantee. Performance drop of 25% after 2 days maybe allowed as long as it doesn't drop 30% or more within the warranty period. Alternatively, you could look at N80 NLight type devices as an offer for laborer at a set performance rate, dollar/hour rate may increase.



sbrn33 said:


> Just think, if you would have gone with LED those fixtures would *probably be paid for.*


The decision making shouldn't be a gambling process. It's true you could spend money on lottery for entertainment purposes, but in rare cases, it can serve investment purposes. 

Energy Retrofit Sales and Marketing could say all sorts of pretty things. 
This is why the buyer should involve consultants and an expert attorney so the paperwork is triple sealed air tight so all the damage due to not living up to the sales pitch hits the LED Sale Vendor's bottom line.



Ragin Cajun said:


> I have specified LED fixtures, but very carefully. They are *grossly over priced* at this point in time and failures are there.


Exactly. Cost of failure maybe substantially higher. 



Ragin Cajun said:


> I have T5HO dimmable in my own offuce and have no desire for LED. Harsh, you bet. "White" light, too white unless you hold the *supplier's/contractor's feet to the fire* not to use 4 or 5000degK color.


Or put it in requirements that it SHALL BE 3,500K. Put in 5,000K where it says "shall be 3500K"... there is no argument, i feel that it looks the bomb, i think maybe its comparable :whistling2: Specification non-conformance. Re-do it, then when you're done, let's talk payments, less deductions for incurred losses + penalties as allowed by the contract. 

The other day, I ordered a chicken sandwich and it was made with a damn microwaved frozen chicken pattie rather than the grilled chicken breast I was hoping for and I accept the fault for assuming that it was and failure to ask enough questions. At least it was just a $7 sandwich, not a facility full of lighting left to the discretion of Retrofit Sales Vendor with terms of payments set on the vendor's boiler plate. 

Proper specification requirements is the key to legally say "I ain't paying until you make it right, because it fails to meet requirements A, B, C, D, E, F, G and H of objectively defined in specifications" rather than "I don't like how it tastes"





> Have one client pi$$ed of because they are "too bright"! I had them on a dimmer but he turns them up all the way. I had to allow for the huge drop in output over the lifetime. Would he listen to my explanation? Nope, he just thought I put in way too many fixtures. He went from wraparound fluorescent to recessed cans. Puke! Can's don't belong in an office, but he insisted!!! @#$%^&. They have their place, but have a long way to go yet. RC


If that client insisted and came up with his own specs, too bad for him. Also, if it uses a phase control dimmer, it may lead to high harmonics and reduction of facility power factor and reduce power saving opportunities. Just sayin' 



sbrn33 said:


> Actually cans in an office are probably better than wraps when it comes to screen glare and other thinks like looks and power consumption.


Although this isn't LED vs fluorescent issue. 
There are high performance parabolic troffers that use proven, efficient technology such as F32T8 fluorescent lamps and appropriate for use with video display terminals.


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## Surge03 (Sep 23, 2012)

sbrn33 said:


> I have yet to put up an LED fixture that the customer does not like. Well, other than price.


That's because they don't know any better, they read the sales label it will last 20 years lol


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

Surge03 said:


> That's because they don't know any better, they read the sales label it will last 20 years lol


Time span is a big factor.

I sell you a loaf of bread with the pitch that it will stay fresh for 12 days at 80F but it gets completely moldy in after 36 hours. A lot of buyers experienced the same. They will probably complain. 

Energy Retrofit Sales company sells LEDs claiming 12 year life. Well, reviews are generally left within a month of ownership and follow up comments within a year. The probability of complaint for a 12 year life LED failing after 18 month is probably less scathing than a 12 day shelf life bread going moldy after 1.5 days. 

It's efficient, saves energy and lasts a long time XOXO, I love LED is equivalent to positive reviews about the shelf life of 12-day shelf life bread left on the day it was bought.


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## mdnitedrftr (Aug 21, 2013)

Get a reputable brand, and you can worry less. 

I installed Rab LED wallpacks back when they came out in late 2011 or early 2012, for a customer of mine who is all about saving energy. They're on every night from 7pm-5am...not a single problem.

If you get yourself a fly by night manufacturer, then yea you might run into some problems.


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## ampman (Apr 2, 2009)

Chris1971 said:


> I agree. Haven't had any customers complain about LED lighting.


---x2----


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Surge03 said:


> That's because they don't know any better, they read the sales label it will last 20 years lol


Why do you LOL this>? Do you something we do not?


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

sbrn33 said:


> Why do you LOL this>? Do you something we do not?


"lasts 20 years" is a speculation. It could be true but it's not proven. 
There's the driver, various components, fluorescent phosphors, package, etc. 

The Titanic was supposedly unsinkable. Until it sank.
That's why you need the correct language in the contract that leaves the selling vendor on the hook if it does sink or it goes out of specifications during the duration of warranty. The length of warranty needs to realistically reflect useful life.


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## Texas_LED_Guru (Mar 1, 2013)

Electric_Light said:


> They're all considerably different from each other aside from halogen and incandescent being very similar.
> 
> MH, HPS and filament are direct emitters.
> MH, HPS are electric discharge lamps.
> ...


Not trying to stir up a can of worms, but your reasoning & distaste for LED's begs me to ask...

Chances are you own, or have owned a flat screen television/s.

Sooo...are they plasma, florescent, or LED back lit?

Also, while I've got your attention, does a T5 or T8 triphosphor lamp producing greater than 85 CRI even exist or would one need an LED light source for that? Cree makes 90+ CRI chips all day long that are used in many of their commercial fixtures & are finally making their way into residential applications.


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

Texas_LED_Guru said:


> Not trying to stir up a can of worms, but your reasoning & distaste for LED's begs me to ask...
> 
> Chances are you own, or have owned a flat screen television/s.
> 
> Sooo...are they plasma, florescent, or LED back lit?


I have some that are CCFL, some that are SSFL (LED) 



> Also, while I've got your attention, does a T5 or T8 triphosphor lamp producing greater than 85 CRI even exist or would one need an LED light source for that? Cree makes 90+ CRI chips all day long that are used in many of their commercial fixtures & are finally making their way into residential applications.


The higher CRI lamps are generally used for graphic arts and paint industry. You would find that it's hard to tell different brightness ratings of copy papers under LED as LEDs on the current market is nearly completely lacking in output shorter than deep blue. 

As you can imagine, the superwhite (fluorescence) exhibited by paper media is very important in graphic arts industry. So, while LEDs can come with a sticker value of 90+ CRI, they don't meaningfully reproduce the color as expected to meet ANSI standards for color match lamps. 

In fact, incandescent lamps put out more violet and UV than LEDs. Mercury vapor based fluorescent lamp technology retains the capability to extend emissions from UVB to near IR while solid state fluorescent lamps have an inherent spectral flaw between blue and green (devoid of aqua/turquoise range), as well as lack of violet. 

The matching of broad spectrum light extending into UVA generally require gas discharge technology such as xenon gas and mercury. Gas technology offers much more consistent performance between brands and batches.


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## confident (Apr 28, 2008)

My biggest problem with LEDs down to the replacement bulbs, ( I forget the exact numbers) but a 15 watt led replaces 60 watt incandescent.
Does the 15w produce as much heat as the 60?....and if it does, how does it save any energy?


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Ragin Cajun said:


> Saw an add in EC&M for:
> 
> "450W design delivers up to 41,250 lumens and replaces up to a 1500W HID fixture"
> 
> ...


If EC&M is professing them it is probably legitimate.


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## Texas_LED_Guru (Mar 1, 2013)

confident said:


> My biggest problem with LEDs down to the replacement bulbs, ( I forget the exact numbers) but a 15 watt led replaces 60 watt incandescent.
> Does the 15w produce as much heat as the 60?....and if it does, how does it save any energy?


15 watt 60's were some of the first LED's on the market 7 or 8 years ago. They barely matched the CFL equivalent in efficiency.

The newer generations are only drawing 8 or 9 watts to equal a 60 watt incandescent.

In a year or two even that will be cut in half down to 4 or 5 watts.

LED's get more efficient every year.


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

confident said:


> My biggest problem with LEDs down to the replacement bulbs, ( I forget the exact numbers) but a 15 watt led replaces 60 watt incandescent.
> Does the 15w produce as much heat as the 60?....and if it does, how does it save any energy?


LEDs have to reject more heat at the bulb, because they can't shed much as infrared. 



Texas_LED_Guru said:


> 15 watt 60's were some of the first LED's on the market 7 or 8 years ago. They barely matched the CFL equivalent in efficiency.
> 
> The newer generations are only drawing 8 or 9 watts to equal a 60 watt incandescent.
> 
> ...


I don't like watt equivalent expressions used on their own, because it's misleading. The point of reference is constantly changing. It's also somewhat geographically dependent. 

230v 60W ~ 725 lm 
120v 60W ~ 865 lm 
HB3 12v 65W automotive halogen ~1700 lm


800 lm CFLs consume 13-14W and this is what we see sold as "60W bulb equiv" in the US. 

Cree LED introduced in 2013 ish as "Warm White LED 60w" is rated out of the box at 800 LM 9.5W with degradation allowance down to 560 LM. 

The newer version introduced in 2015 called 4 FLOW has reduced efficacy in the interest of lower production cost and it's rated 815 LM 11W out of the box, depreciation allowance to 570 lm with the warranty reduced to 3 year/6,570 hrs. 










Most LED bulbs use the solid state fluorescent lamp design and they too suffer from degradation and both CFLs and LED lamp bulbs must have a ballast in the base regardless of semantics around the circuits. 

CFLs lose utilization efficiency in making itself compact. The spiral emits in all directions and light from inner facing portions become trapped which is why they only get about 60 lm/W. 

Linear T8 fluorescent can break 90 lm/W utilized (ballast + fixture optics + lamps combined) and go over 50,000 hrs with <10% drop in output. This is where LEDs have difficulty matching, not just the initial output, but long term efficacy.


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

Ragin Cajun said:


> Saw an add in EC&M for:
> 
> ​"450W design delivers up to 41,250 lumens and replaces up to a 1500W HID fixture"
> 
> ...


Some HIDs lose about half the output from the time they're new to the time they're due for replacement, so when all HID lamps are new, the area will be significantly over lit. 

So the sales department probably crunched the numbers using brand new output for LEDs and end of life output for HIDs. Some LEDs claim L90 (90% of original output remaining) after tens of thousands of hours of use, but you really need to check with the manufacturer to see if that's native performance or with the help of active LED degradation compensation circuitry that progressively raises the input power to overcome light drop.


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## ElectronFlow (Dec 21, 2014)

Electric_Light said:


> The higher CRI lamps are generally used for graphic arts and paint industry. You would find that it's hard to tell different brightness ratings of copy papers under LED as LEDs on the current market is nearly completely lacking in output shorter than deep blue.


Really? All that, and a bag of chips too.

It is pretty obvious that you don't like LED's. And for whatever reason, you go on endlessly about the evils of LED's.

However, here is hard numbers out of an office with LED 2x4 troffers in an 8' ceiling. it was 6 am, and there wasn't much sunlight to cloud the readings. it was made last week.

The readings were made with a device with a current certification to NIST standards.

Let us take a look at the actual numbers from the lights. Provisioning has been made for these lights to perform this way for 20 years.

Run of the mill LED office lights. Inefficient this, inadequate that... when the lights were dimmed to about 20 fc at the desktop, which is where the occupants set most of them, using the full range dimming available, the entire 6,000 sq ft of space drew 8.5 amps at 277 volts.


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

ElectronFlow said:


> However, here is hard numbers out of an office with LED 2x4 troffers in an 8' ceiling. it was 6 am, and there wasn't much sunlight to cloud the readings. it was made last week.


Ceiling, wall and floor reflectivity values or just their colors? 



> The readings were made with a device with a current certification to NIST standards.


That's odd. We don't report Re or the JIS R15 values in North America. 
I don't know what "purity" represents. What's the brand and model of the lights discussed here and where were these measurements taken? 



ElectronFlow said:


> Run of the mill LED office lights. *Inefficient this, inadequate that*... when the lights were dimmed to about 20 fc at the desktop, which is where the occupants set most of them, using the full range dimming available, the entire 6,000 sq ft of space drew 8.5 amps at 277 volts.


Using RE80 HPT8 3,100 lumen lamps and using a LLF of 0.9
100' x 60' x 8' space, with the standard 80/50/20 reflectivity rules... 

Lithonia 2ES8P B 232
55W input, 0.88 BF 

I can reach 21 FC at 0.26W/ft² or get it down to 20FC @ 0.22W/ft² if the LLF is ignored as LED sales people often do. 

But, it took you nearly double the power and needed 0.4W/ft² to illuminate the desk surface in 8' ceiling 6,000 sq.ft space using your LEDs? 

I used V x A =W as any decent light fixtures are PF corrected. So, if it isn't, these LEDs get a terrible power factor. 


These do not address the proper softness/hardness of lights. Do you have a picture of a pen standing on the desk lit under these lights? What abut a chart showing FC level on the walls and uniformity of distribution? 

We use diffusers like shades, opal glass or use indirect lighting to alleviate highly undesirable harsh lights as demonstrated in the first picture below. It's easy to achieve a horizontal surface level foot candle value and neglect uniformity or non shadow casting attributes. 

These are public facilities with similar office type space usage:

This is with a recent LED retrofit. It's not as bad as it normally would be, because there's a sky light and it was during the day. At night time, it'll be worse: 

LEDs are more directional and the "flashlight hanging down the ceiling" approach can produce high surface FC to input watt value which may look good on paper that reports a narrow set of values... but... 










This is a different facility that uses indirect fluorescent:










The spectral power distribution plot you shared with us is not a typical of the dominant LED lighting technology used today, which is the LED powered fluorescent lights that use blue LEDs coated with, or behind a yellow fluorescent phosphor coating. 5,400K is not something used as the general office space lighting. So, it appears to be a special purpose(and probably superbly expensive) LED. 

"high CRI" is generally requested for special applications, but at the same time, you can have a 100 CRI and zero UV, because CRI does not factor fluorescence. The color chips used for CRI scoring do not exhibit fluorescence. 

Since LEDs struggle to include output extending into the UV range, this disadvantage maybe pitched as an advantage claiming "no damaging UV". In graphic arts, the effect of fluorescence matters, because it affects the way printed matter looks. So, the super high CRI LEDs don't necessarily meet ISO 3664, because they fail to render printed media the way D50 source should. 

With an allowance of 0.4W/sq ft to reach 20FC, I could simply use specialty T8 lamps to get the CRI up to 98 and also have emissions extending into violet and UVA to meet the above objectives.


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

ElectronFlow said:


>


You have not shared the details I asked for. What's the brand and model of the fixture you speak of? 

Most "run of the mill" LED lights use solid state fluorescent lamps consisting of blue LEDs salted with yellow emitting phosphors. They have a very distinctive trench spectral flaw in between blue and green; as well as missing output to the left of 410nm or so. It's the latter that prevents the proper rendition of fabric and paper brighteners.


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## Who Dat (Feb 27, 2010)

confident said:


> My biggest problem with LEDs down to the replacement bulbs, ( I forget the exact numbers) but a 15 watt led replaces 60 watt incandescent.
> Does the 15w produce as much heat as the 60?....and if it does, how does it save any energy?


A 60W equivalent LED lamp does not produce the same amount of (waste) heat. An incandescent lamp is barely more than a resistance heater that happens to glow. 

LED technology converts electricity into visible light more efficiently than the old technology.

On my last project I used 10W A19 LED lamps to replace 60W incandescent and they were noticeably brighter.

The newest 60W equivalent LED lamps use 8-9 watts.


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## Who Dat (Feb 27, 2010)

Hard to beat this deal:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Philips-...te-A19-LED-Light-Bulb-2-Pack-455576/205815532


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## swarski (Sep 15, 2015)

I am a LED Fan but I am also sick of sales guys regurgitating rubbish claims to clients, the one that I get most often is " but the guy at the lighting store said it will last 50000 to 100000 hours" It is usually at that point that I want to hit the roof as my job just became alot more difficult and i have to go into reality check mode.


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## Spark Master (Jul 3, 2012)

Did anyone ever amp out an LED bulb, before and after an incandescent replacement ??


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

Spark Master said:


> Did anyone ever amp out an LED bulb, before and after an incandescent replacement ??


LED lamps generally have lower amps than proportional savings compared to CFLs, partly because of front end circuits used to meet Energy Star power factor rating requirements. An 800 lm lamp is 8-12W. The current is usually under 0.2A @ 120V (0.5 PF 12W lamp will draw 0.2A. While 8W 0.8 PF draws only 0.083A)


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

swarski said:


> I am a LED Fan but I am also sick of sales guys regurgitating rubbish claims to clients, the one that I get most often is " but the guy at the lighting store said it will last 50000 to 100000 hours" It is usually at that point that I want to hit the roof as my job just became alot more difficult and i have to go into reality check mode.


That's assuming LED lamp element under laboratory conditions to 30% degradation. The ballast in LED lamps are almost always inferior to high performance electronically ballasted fluorescent systems. If you have a high frame rate (400+ FPS) high speed camera, you'll see decorative solid state lighting devices pulsate like crazy due to poor smoothing to shave cost. 

Oh but don't forget. HS cameras are used not to test light fixtures, but for artistic, industrial and educational purposes. 



Who Dat said:


> Hard to beat this *deal*:
> 
> http://www.homedepot.com/p/Philips-...te-A19-LED-Light-Bulb-2-Pack-455576/205815532


That's rubbish, because, it's the usual revolving door Home Depot sale and you can't compare it fair and square to trade prices, because you can't expect to get them for this price in bulk or in expect stable pricing. LED lamp bulbs expensive. Without revolving sale gimmick, they run $7-12 EACH.


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## ELECTRICK2 (Feb 21, 2015)

Spark Master said:


> Did anyone ever amp out an LED bulb, before and after an incandescent replacement ??


I didn't do exactly that but I did amp a 2 lamp "Wrap" T8 fixture and an LED wrap that was (according to the box) supposed to replace the T8 with "significant energy savings". The LED was maybe .01A less. Didn't make note of model #s but they were both sold by Cooper.


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## Kaffeene (Feb 11, 2014)

Without listing any technical details I did use 3 of the RAB FXLED 150W LED flood lights about 20ft. high to light up a construction yard and wow did they make it bright. 

The customer told me to make it like daylight and when I was done it sure was. 
Of course the LED's weren't really replacing anything like HID or MH, just a single old crap fixture that had more spiders than lumens.

I will say that about 1/2 of the CFL's I ever used in my own house never even came close to lasting as long as the claims. Maybe 1-2 years. An incandescent would have lasted longer. 

I also recently had one of those common Cree LED "A" bulb styles go bad after about 15 months installed in an outdoor sconce light at my house.


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## Wpgshocker (Jan 25, 2013)

*&quot;Questionable&quot; LED Claims*



Kaffeene said:


> I also recently had one of those common Cree LED "A" bulb styles go bad after about 15 months installed in an outdoor sconce light at my house.



From the Cree website :

A19 Series
"not for use where exposed directly to weather or water"


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Kaffeene (Feb 11, 2014)

Wpgshocker said:


> From the Cree website :
> 
> A19 Series
> "not for use where exposed directly to weather or water"
> ...


Yeah but it also says suitable for damp locations and this light doesn't exactly get very wet unless the wind is blowing. And the bulb is not exposed directly.


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## Johnpaul (Oct 2, 2008)

For hard to reach locations where a scissor jack or a truck with a snorkel is needed to change out a light the cost needs to be factored in along with mean life expectancy as well as the power costs. European countries were much quicker to adopt LED lighting for large buildings where the costs to replace a lamp were a significant cost. 

For security the cleaner the color rendition from the light source the more accurate the color rendition with the security capture. This has been a problem with the high-pressure sodium lighting that became very popular 35 years ago. 

CFL's fail when the electronic components fail and that is usually from their being used inverted as in a light can where the electronics sit above the lamp and get all the heat from it and there is no way to bleed off the heat. Use a CFL lamp in an open light socket with it upright and it may reach its specified hours of operation. 

Light output from HID should be considered based on its mean output and not its initial output. Most HID's have a mean output that is two-thirds their initial light rating with 160K lumens becoming reduced to 100k lumens on average. 

Color temp is not measured in terms of lumen output (or lux at the target) but there is a big difference in visibility and acuity from a 5000K LED as compared to a 3000K one. 

Interesting tests of grow lights for greenhouse applications shows LED lights providing equivalent results to HID lamps while using 50-75 percent less Watts. 

With LED's the more costly fixtures will have heat sinks and cooling fans if needed and use higher quality electronic components and drivers. One hopes that this will translate into longer life but at this time there is not a good testing procedure to provide an accurate indication of how long a LED light will last. We have seen failure rates of as high as 40% after only 2,000 hours of operation at installations which is certainly something to factor into any recommendation. HID is a much better known quantity.


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## ELECTRICK2 (Feb 21, 2015)

We've installed lots of LEDs. (Gov't contract) Some are great, some suck.

My biggest complaint is, everybody worries about that little bit of mercury in a fluorescent. Granted, it is a toxic substance and should be disposed of properly. But what's in an LED? Pretty sure it ain't "green".
Second, LEDs, programmable t'stats, or whatever are not gonna save you money on your power bill. POCO has x amount of income and y amount of expenses. If x isn't significantly larger than y, what do you think they would do?


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## Ragin Cajun (Nov 20, 2013)

That sure cuts to the bone!

RC


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