# Single breaker trips causes whole house to go dark



## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

your last sentence says it all!


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Cobra3 said:


> I was doing some work for my cousin. He had an outlet he said did not work. Checked it with my meter and the neutral had 29 volts black had 21. When testing across the 2 wires I was getting 73 volts. I figured there was a neutral issue. The really strange part is that outlet is switched I pulled out the switch and when I put it back the one wire broke and was causing the breaker to trip. What is strange about this is the one 15 amp breaker tripped and the whole house went black then came back on on its own yet the main never tripped. How could one 15 amp breaker tripping blackout the whole house yet not trip the main? This house is a nightmare created by previous owner doing all his own electrical work



Stupid question but when you say "black out the whole house" you mean all the lights went out ? As in they could all be on that circuit. If the main wasn't tripped the buss were still hot. When the lights are out did you read any circuit breakers to see if they had power or not?


----------



## Cobra3 (Mar 2, 2016)

When I say black out I mean everything in the house shut off as far as I could tell. Lights, TV, security system reset. I didn't have time to check anything because it was only for a few seconds


----------



## Cobra3 (Mar 2, 2016)

As I was retracing my steps opening each box and seeing what happened I'd reset the breaker and each time I did the lights in the whole house would get really dim and flicker after the breaker would trip. Like I said I eventually figure out why the breaker tripped but that left me with a new question which was why did that one breaker have so much of an affect of the rest of the panel


----------



## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

loose connection somewhere. start with the main connections, certainly the neutral, and then----also check the connection under the main breaker, they can do some weird stuff too!


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Because the short circuit allowed such a large current flow that all the available power went through the short and not the rest of the circuits. So until the breaker cleared the circuit, there basically was no power left to run everything else.


----------



## telsa (May 22, 2015)

After such an 'expert' has fiddled with the home...

You are dreaming to think you can un-cluster this mess with a 'this' or 'that.'

You have to -- fundamentally -- rebuild the system.

If experience is any guide, you'll find astounding screwball connections.

Yes, ones you can't imagine.

&&&&&&&&

Your original post is really "how screwy can screwy get"?

The answer is -- pretty screwy.

&&&&&&&&&&

Classic goofs that normal electricians can't imagine:

Cross connecting COUNTLESS A leg circuits -- so that they are ALL 'blended.'

Yes, this goes against everything a j-man can imagine.

Cross connecting countless B leg circuits, too.

Yiikes.

The "ONE CIRCUIT" C//B is merely the FIRST to trip.

The cross connections are so bizarre -- that the 'choke' is the #14 wire... itself.

Carried far enough, the ONLY OCPD you have is the MAIN. 

(Let's hope this is not true for you. )

The 'expert' has defeated all branch protection.

Perfect.

You need to approach this fiasco as if it was a NEW build.

Build a complete panel schedule.

Expect to find crossed over conductors.

( Two, three, four C/Bs cross connected to a given branch circuit. )

Bring a fire extinguisher. -- Your hair might catch on fire !


----------



## bkmichael65 (Mar 25, 2013)

A loose service neutral would probably do that. A surge on leg from a direct short will cause the voltage on the other leg to drop down to almost nothing


----------



## Cobra3 (Mar 2, 2016)

Ok i will check out that service neutral. Thank you for the responses. Something else I found strange was I decided to check for continuity. I checked every breaker in the panel to ground and to the neutral bar. There was continuity between each breaker and ground and also each breaker to neutral. Now nothing has ever inspired me to do this before so I don't know if this is common or if my meter is screwed but I thought it was strange


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Cobra3 said:


> Ok i will check out that service neutral. Thank you for the responses. Something else I found strange was I decided to check for continuity. I checked every breaker in the panel to ground and to the neutral bar. There was continuity between each breaker and ground and also each breaker to neutral. Now nothing has ever inspired me to do this before so I don't know if this is common or if my meter is screwed but I thought it was strange


If there is a load on the circuit, of course you will have continuity.


----------



## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

Sounds like you gots a real can of worms there. First thing is a complete panel inspection, pull all the breakers and the meter, everything that can come out, take it out, check for evidence of arcing. Tighten all neutrals on the buss. Do a voltage drop, and leakage check on all breakers, and exercise them, including the main. Don't forget the GEC connections. Pull all devices, plugs, switches, lights, everything on, or in a box. Get in the attic, and/or under the house and open all j-boxes. Then rebuild the entire system one circuit at a time. There's no room for guesswork, you must verify everything. You must know and understand every circuit from end to end. Draw a circuit diagram, and write up a panel schedule. This isn't a "one day job", and you can't half-azz it. Well you could, if your conscience, and professional manner will allow it.


----------



## Cobra3 (Mar 2, 2016)

Yes this is a bad situation and it's a family member so I wasn't planning on charging him. Worst part is every wall and ceiling from the basement to the attic is sheetrocked so I can't see where anything comes from or goes to.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Cobra3 said:


> Yes this is a bad situation and it's a family member so I wasn't planning on charging him. Worst part is every wall and ceiling from the basement to the attic is sheetrocked so I can't see where anything comes from or goes to.



You don't need to see it. Just use your meter.


----------



## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Cobra3 said:


> Yes this is a bad situation and it's a family member so I wasn't planning on charging him. Worst part is every wall and ceiling from the basement to the attic is sheetrocked so I can't see where anything comes from or goes to.



Kill ALL power -- and trace the Romex with a toner and wand...

It -- the toner and wand -- will give you X-ray vision. :thumbsup:


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Looking back on all the "favor" jobs I've ever done they are more than often the ones with the biggest problems to find. Many people ask you to take a look at something after they have thrown money at it until they are frustrated and tell you it just occurred "I'd like to see what you think". After you find the first problem you get "oh yeah that is what abc said".


----------



## Cobra3 (Mar 2, 2016)

So I just got a call from my cousin. The saga continues. All the lights in the house went out but outlets stayed on. No breaker is tripped supposedly. Can't wait to see what's wrong now


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Cobra3 said:


> So I just got a call from my cousin. The saga continues. All the lights in the house went out but outlets stayed on. No breaker is tripped supposedly. Can't wait to see what's wrong now




Just curious what brand the panel is ?


----------



## Cobra3 (Mar 2, 2016)

Square D. So it's true no breakers are tripped. When checked with a meter every other breaker has lost power.


----------



## theJcK (Aug 7, 2013)

Haha. Lost a leg..


----------



## mitch65 (Mar 26, 2015)

Tell him to call the utility and check the power to the panel9or meter however far they will go)


----------



## Cobra3 (Mar 2, 2016)

Yea he lost a leg. I'm very confused how a 15 amp breaker trips like 3 times until I trouble shot it back to a broken wire and the very next day we lose a leg coming in from the meter. It is really windy here but I don't believe in coincidences like that


----------



## bkmichael65 (Mar 25, 2013)

Cobra3 said:


> Yea he lost a leg. I'm very confused how a 15 amp breaker trips like 3 times until I trouble shot it back to a broken wire and the very next day we lose a leg coming in from the meter. It is really windy here but I don't believe in coincidences like that


More than likely the wire was brittle and broke while you were pushing the switch back in the box and not related to the original problem or the newest issue. Since this happened while it's windy out, the problem is most likely with the service drop. Have the POCO come out and check their connections.


----------



## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

Cobra3 said:


> Yes this is a bad situation and it's a family member so I wasn't planning on charging him. Worst part is every wall and ceiling from the basement to the attic is sheetrocked so I can't see where anything comes from or goes to.


Well, that's even better, you've got a built in helper. Once powers cut, hand them your drill/driver and have them start removing devices. And, keep reminding them, "you owe me big time for this". It'll give you a chance to show off your expertise. :thumbup:


----------



## Cobra3 (Mar 2, 2016)

Yea pseg came out and said it was w bad connection at the service head but since it's on the roof they won't go on the roof to fix it. Said my he needs to have an electrician do it. Sounds like bs to me. Isn't pseg responsible up until the meter?


----------



## bkmichael65 (Mar 25, 2013)

Cobra3 said:


> Yea pseg came out and said it was w bad connection at the service head but since it's on the roof they won't go on the roof to fix it. Said my he needs to have an electrician do it. Sounds like bs to me. Isn't pseg responsible up until the meter?


According to their website, the point of attachment is the homeowner's responsibility. Unless it's for my immediate family or a super MILF, any kind of free work would stop here for me


----------



## Cobra3 (Mar 2, 2016)

Lol I hear that. Thanks for all the help and advice guys


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Now i wonder if the trip surge was enough to jolt that poco splice open.....:blink:

~CS~


----------



## Cobra3 (Mar 2, 2016)

That's what I was thinking. Maybe it was on the verge of coming apart anyway because he said sometimes the lights would dim and flicker for no reason especially in the wind. I do think something may be wrong with the main breaker though because that surge should not have made it past the main without tripping it right?


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Not _really _Cobra

Most resi mini OCPD's have similar mag trip ratings 

~CS~


----------



## mikewillnot (Apr 2, 2013)

> since it's on the roof they won't go on the roof to fix it


Same here. Moreover, if you or the homeowner pushes it with them, they'll require you to relocate the tie-off to an approved location.


----------



## theJcK (Aug 7, 2013)

Honestly not too hard a fix.. but if youre not comfortable enough then dont.


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> Not _really _Cobra
> 
> Most resi mini OCPD's have similar mag trip ratings
> 
> ~CS~



That exceed the rating of the main breaker's mag pickup in some older load centers :laughing::blink:


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Cobra3 said:


> That's what I was thinking. Maybe it was on the verge of coming apart anyway because he said sometimes the lights would dim and flicker for no reason especially in the wind. I do think something may be wrong with the main breaker though because that surge should not have made it past the main without tripping it right?



Incorrect. Google selective coordination and selective discrimination. When a fault occurs both the branch and main breaker "see" the fault current in that it flows through them. If the current is large enough, it will be a race for both. Keep in mind that when a short circuit does occur, it is often in the hundreds to amps range, so 400amps of fault current is well above the handle rating of both the branch and the main breaker.


Midway through there is a very detailed explanation, and how short circuits work:

http://www.electriciantalk.com/f5/overkill-149530/index3/#post2666929


----------

