# Just curious



## Anathera (Feb 16, 2016)

As a guy in a mostly union weak state with no union experience I'm just curious from a company owner perspective what would it look like to bring an exsiting small non-union company union, I've seen a lot of problems finding decent employees in the few spots I've worked (partly due to skills gap, mostly due to crap pay) and wanted to know if that kind of process is even possible


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

Wait.....You're a contractor, who WANTS to organize his crew? Did I read that right?
That concept is foreign to me, but........
What you could probably expect, after you become a signatory, is a whole new crew. Guys you can just hand the prints to and give directions to the job site. They'll handle the rest. Material procurement, manpower, scheduling, and an on time, and on budget project completion. Done right the first time.
Now....all this doesn't come cheap, but you get what you pay for.
You'll probably have to restructure your bidding process to accommodate for efficiency, better wages and benefit package.
Union journeymen don't show up late and ask "am I gonna need my tools today"? You get 8 for 8.
It's up to you, but, your local union business manager would be more than happy to run down the details on your schedule.


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## Anathera (Feb 16, 2016)

well I am a electrician myself with dreams of an eventual successful company. Like I said this state is very non-union but there are some shops. Like i said it's mostly curiosity but given that there are so many contractors around us that are hurting for help i was wondering what it looked like.


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## Anathera (Feb 16, 2016)

I've been in several situations where the wages are certainly not fair and while im definitely not an osha loyalist the safety standards are fairly low. I personally hope to create a company that does a fair step better. It sounds like the same idea that the unions had at least initially but I am not particularly sure if union affiliation would work in our context. Electrical contractors typically charge near 100 per hour and from what i see it doesn't look like a union shop could support such low rates and being a new company I'd have to stay competitive.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

joebanana said:


> Wait.....You're a contractor, who WANTS to organize his crew? Did I read that right?
> That concept is foreign to me, but........
> What you could probably expect, after you become a signatory, is a whole new crew. *Guys you can just hand the prints to and give directions to the job site. They'll handle the rest.* Material procurement, manpower, scheduling, and an on time, and on budget project completion. Done right the first time.
> Now....all this doesn't come cheap, but you get what you pay for.
> ...


What if there are no prints? Then they are lost.


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

Anathera said:


> well I am a electrician myself with dreams of an eventual successful company. Like I said this state is very non-union but there are some shops. Like i said it's mostly curiosity but given that there are so many contractors around us that are hurting for help i was wondering what it looked like.


I think it's blowback from the states requiring certifications for a job you didn't have to have one for before. (One big money grab for the states to try to balance their budgets on) Non-union guy's just won't pay for, and spend the time getting certified, especially if it doesn't benefit them, they'll still be getting $10-15/hr. So, they just become plumbers, or painters.
One problem you might face would be, if there isn't a union hall within a few hundred miles, you'll be paying per diem. It's a big move going union, but it's like day and night.


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## Anathera (Feb 16, 2016)

Oh there is one 30 miles away, its just really weak around here. Right to work states seem to be that way. Our state doesn't require any licensing to work for an EC I think the right to work aspect is what killed a lot of union growth and then the historically sparse population. However the local area is growing fast


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

sbrn33 said:


> What if there are no prints? Then they are lost.


Kinda hard getting through plan check without prints. Carpenters hate it when there aren't any prints, Sparkies can wing it, we've got the instruction book. :thumbup:


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## Anathera (Feb 16, 2016)

plan check? what is this novelty you speak of? Do you see many small shops (10 and under) go union? or just the big boys


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

I would talk to the rep for the local union and see what he has to say. There will be compromises to be made.


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## Anathera (Feb 16, 2016)

Its something i've thought of once i get off the ground. going from a 2 man shop to larger it would be nice to have a decent influx of skill


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## dawgs (Dec 1, 2007)

Anathera said:


> As a guy in a mostly union weak state with no union experience I'm just curious from a company owner perspective what would it look like to bring an exsiting small non-union company union, I've seen a lot of problems finding decent employees in the few spots I've worked (partly due to skills gap, mostly due to crap pay) and wanted to know if that kind of process is even possible


I did it with my company back in 2008. When you get serious about it PM me and I will give you all the details. I'm also in a right to work state.


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

INHO, your odds of running a successful union shop will go up if you are (or have been) a union electrician. Your more of an insider to them. They'll respect you more and you'll probably be treated better. 

In my view and in my personal experience, its advantageous to have the inside knowledge of how the union works, the politics and connections that will help you get the most out of the union as a union contractor.

For the record: My personal experience was thirty years ago. FWIW


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## Anathera (Feb 16, 2016)

I'd like to come in with the experience but i would have had to start several years back. I was introduced to the trade outside of the union and it wasn't until recently that i realized there was even a presence here to be interested in. As it stands it looks like they would just appreciate local shops period


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## dawgs (Dec 1, 2007)

Anathera said:


> I'd like to come in with the experience but i would have had to start several years back. I was introduced to the trade outside of the union and it wasn't until recently that i realized there was even a presence here to be interested in. As it stands it looks like they would just appreciate local shops period


What state are you in?


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## Anathera (Feb 16, 2016)

dawgs said:


> What state are you in?


North Carolina. There are locals here but none of the big name shops are union and the local here has a very short list of contractors best i can tell


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

Anathera said:


> plan check? what is this novelty you speak of? Do you see many small shops (10 and under) go union? or just the big boys


Union jobs are usually too big for the lone mom and pop shop. They're geared more toward large corporate machines like, McCarthy, Bechtel, G.E., SCE, etc. Multi-million dollar payroll projects, that need lots of manpower, instantly. We do a lot of power generation, combined cycle, large PV array's, ie. "Bird zappers" (Ivanpah, yeah, we did that one)


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## Anathera (Feb 16, 2016)

Are big projects the bread and butter or pretty much the exclusive work you do?


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

There's not usually a lot of incentive for large nonunion shops to organize. The owners have already gotten in their groove.

A lot of our union contractors are not that large, but they're busy constantly and CAN bid larger projects because of the readily accessible skilled workforce. 

Sent from my SM-G360T using Tapatalk


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## Anathera (Feb 16, 2016)

I'd like to have that flexibility really cause I've gotten some customers that are loyal to me and will go with me that would have big projects and the ability would be nice.


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## Switchgear277 (Mar 18, 2017)

I wish you were my boss .
It's so refreshing to hear of a contractor that actually wants skilled labor even if it cost more instead of paying as little as possible .

And it seems like u actually care about safety and your guys getting fair wage .

I hope every works out for you , and your able to go union and be successful you seem like a great guy.

These right to works states are passing bills in more and more states , theirs deff a war going on against the middle class .


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Switchgear277 said:


> I wish you were my boss .
> It's so refreshing to hear of a contractor that actually wants skilled labor even if it cost more instead of paying as little as possible .
> 
> And it seems like u actually care about safety and your guys getting fair wage .
> ...


He is one of the few guys here that sound like they would be a pleasure to work for or with.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

MechanicalDVR said:


> He is one of the few guys here that sound like they would be a pleasure to work for or with.


Thanks a lot! :sad:


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

backstay said:


> Thanks a lot! :sad:


You could be in 'the few' it doesn't say you aren't.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

MechanicalDVR said:


> You could be in 'the few' it doesn't say you aren't.


"Could"?


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

backstay said:


> "Could"?


Buck up buttercup, ya feeling down today?


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## dawgs (Dec 1, 2007)

I signed with the union back in 2008. My first 6 years in business were as a nonunion contractor. When you get serious about doing it PM me. I will give you the good, the bad, and the ugly LOL!


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## dawgs (Dec 1, 2007)

We did a job in Lumberton NC a few years back and hired guys out of the local. I can't remember what local is was. I know they didn't have much of a presence down there though. They were calling me for the next couple of years asking us to bid some projects down there.


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## c-note (Jun 30, 2017)

Anathera said:


> well I am a electrician myself with dreams of an eventual successful company. Like I said this state is very non-union but there are some shops. Like i said it's mostly curiosity but given that there are so many contractors around us that are hurting for help i was wondering what it looked like.


You really need to call and speak to the business manager of the local union in your area. Don't listen to that reply about having to replace your whole crew, that just isn't true. They will be more than happy to work with you in determining the skill level of each person and set a plan in place to bring them up to speed if necessary. After that, you know that you will have access to qualified workers when you need to hire.


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## c-note (Jun 30, 2017)

It also doesn't matter what size shop you have. Even if all you do is service work, they will bend over backward to have you. I can also tell you that in many cases they will make sure to get you some really good hands to help you to be successful.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Having been non-union, then union, then non-union again. I'll tell you this, you will have a real hard time going union. It's a different world. When using bidding software, you have to select union because the jobs take more man hours. The guys will consider you a rat and treat you accordingly. Best electrician I ever knew was non-union. You find the right men and treat them well, they don't need a union.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

backstay said:


> Having been non-union, then union, then non-union again. I'll tell you this, you will have a real hard time going union. It's a different world. When using bidding software, you have to select union because the jobs take more man hours. The guys will consider you a rat and treat you accordingly. *Best electrician I ever knew was non-union.* You find the right men and treat them well, they don't need a union.


That's not true, I have been both.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

backstay said:


> Having been non-union, then union, then non-union again. I'll tell you this, you will have a real hard time going union. It's a different world. When using bidding software, you have to select union because the jobs take more man hours. The guys will consider you a rat and treat you accordingly. Best electrician I ever knew was non-union. *You find the right men and treat them well,* they don't need a union.


Sad fact is this isn't common. Far too many companies abuse their employees and if they complain they replace them.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

c-note said:


> *You really need to call and speak to the business manager of the local union in your area.* Don't listen to that reply about having to replace your whole crew, that just isn't true. They will be more than happy to work with you in determining the skill level of each person and set a plan in place to bring them up to speed if necessary. After that, you know that you will have access to qualified workers when you need to hire.


Exactly!

Welcome aboard by the way!


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Switchgear277 said:


> I wish you were my boss .
> It's so refreshing to hear of a contractor that actually wants skilled labor even if it cost more instead of paying as little as possible .


This is a post from someone that has no ****ing idea what he is talking about. Typical brainwashed "brother". I would put any one of my guys up against the typical union guys. 
Honestly if I were you I would be embarrassed,but I bet you are great at playing poker on the roof.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

HackWork said:


> That's not true, I have been both.


I'm speaking of myself you self opinionated lout.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

joebanana said:


> *Wait.....You're a contractor, who WANTS to organize his crew? Did I read that right?*
> That concept is foreign to me, but........
> _What you could probably expect, after you become a signatory, is a whole new crew. Guys you can just hand the prints to and give directions to the job site. They'll handle the rest. Material procurement, manpower, scheduling, and an on time, and on budget project completion. Done right the first time.
> Now....all this doesn't come cheap, but you get what you pay for.
> ...


1. If your statement I put in bold was true there would be no union in many places.
2. All the rest of that is mostly hype you were taught.

I am a union shop and have some of the brightest and best electricians there are, but many of my customers are electrical contractors both union and open shop and I see the same high quality work and the same crap work coming from both camps. I see boozers, late employees in both camps. 

What I do, if I notice an open shop employee that seems exceptional I would try (on the side) to convince him of the merits of going union, not just for giving him the ability of improving his lot in life in the long term but to improve the local.


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## Switchgear277 (Mar 18, 2017)

sbrn33 said:


> Switchgear277 said:
> 
> 
> > I wish you were my boss .
> ...


I've worked six years in nonunion I 
Just got into the union I passed a test and skipped labor history and was able to get into 1st year apprentice . So I'm not brain washed brother,

What I said was it was so refreshing that a contractor nonunion is wanting to pay union wages and is wanting skilled labor and is willing to pay more for it .

in Nj / ny j have met very greedy contractors that are soulless , treat their men like scum all they care about is the dollar , don't care about safety , fair wages , no pride in work , as long as it gets done fast .

I've had a boss screw is men on pw jobs for thousands , break our tools 
Verbally abuse etc ,

And would pay the men pennies ,
Now this is my experience with non unin that the contractor dosnt care about the men And paying fair wages .

I've met some very skilled men in non union , but j also met a lot of scrubs ,

At least I'm the union theirs an apprenticeship program we're you know that a jw at least had 5 years of schooling , in non union a guy can lye and say he has way more experience than he does .

Their skilled labor On both sides .

But basically I was saying that it was
Nice to hear that the contractor wanted to go union bc he wasn't happy with the skills of the men he was getting and that he was willing to pay more pention annuity etc to get it. 

Sounds like
A guy I'd love to wrk for .

And like I said this is my experience with non union everyone's is diff

I've been working
Union for only few mounths n love it 
Have met very skilled jw .and love the pride but it's not for everyone


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

joebanana said:


> Union jobs are usually too big for the lone mom and pop shop. They're geared more toward large corporate machines like, McCarthy, Bechtel, G.E., SCE, etc. Multi-million dollar payroll projects, that need lots of manpower, instantly. We do a lot of power generation, combined cycle, large PV array's, ie. "Bird zappers" (Ivanpah, yeah, we did that one)


Pentagon Remodel a multi year project (12-15 years) completed open shop. Was not happy about that, just saying.


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