# Exposed romex in residential?



## 1capybara

Another sparky and me disagree on this. Common sense and practice says you cannot run romex exposed on the walls in a residential house - only allowed to do that in attics, crawl spaces, garages, unfinished basements, etc. but not in someones bedroom, hall, living room etc. He says "yes you can" I say "no you cant where exposed to physical damage." He says "yes you can, what damage is it exposed to?" I say "children, besides, no inspector in America is going to allow that as far as i know" what do you think? is there a code section or something I can quote him?


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## 480sparky

334.15(b).


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## B4T

480sparky said:


> 334.15(b).


You could of posted the section for the guy.. :no:

(B) Protection from Physical Damage. Cable shall be
protected from physical damage *where necessary* by rigid
metal conduit, intermediate metal conduit, electrical metallic
tubing, Schedule 80 PVC conduit, or other approved
means. Where passing through a floor, the cable shall be
enclosed in rigid metal conduit, intermediate metal conduit,
electrical metallic tubing, Schedule 80 PVC conduit, or
other approved means extending at least 150 mm (6 in.)
above the floor.


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## BBQ

There is no general NEC section prohibiting running NM on the surface in any room of a dwelling unit.

Certainly an inspector could decide some areas might be exposed to damage but that is a call made differently by each area.

Where I am exposed NM is common under the sink for garbage disposal feeds.


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## BBQ

> *334.15 Exposed Work.* In exposed work, except as provided
> in 300.11(A), cable shall be installed as specified in
> 334.15(A) through (C).
> 
> *(A) To Follow Surface.* Cable shall closely follow the surface
> of the building finish or of running boards.


Seems pretty clear that NM is allowed to be run exposed on top of the building finish.


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## jwjrw

BBQ said:


> There is no general NEC section prohibiting running NM on the surface in any room of a dwelling unit.
> 
> Certainly an inspector could decide some areas might be exposed to damage but that is a call made differently by each area.
> 
> Where I am exposed NM is common under the sink for garbage disposal feeds.



I agree but there are many on here that say 334 requires romex to be behind a 15 min fire rated wall. They state article 334.10(3). I read that the article only applies to "other" structures.


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## BBQ

jwjrw said:


> I agree but there are many on here that say 334 requires romex to be behind a 15 min fire rated wall.


Who says that?


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## jwjrw

BBQ said:


> Who says that?



I edited my post. The member from VA is one who was heavily involved in a discussion on this in the past. Not exactly the same situation. I think the wording in all the NM type cables needs to be changed. It conflicts itself in multiple articles.


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## 480sparky

B4T said:


> You could of posted the section for the guy.. :no:



I could have driven to the job site and beat it into him, too.


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## journeymanjo

BBQ said:


> Seems pretty clear that NM is allowed to be run exposed on top of the building finish.


 
why would any electrician erun exposed romex, i cant believe your even discussing running romex exposed on a wall. just poor workmanship, aeven under a sink that is what mc cable is for


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## B4T

journeymanjo said:


> why would any electrician erun exposed romex, i cant believe your even discussing running romex exposed on a wall. just poor workmanship, aeven under a sink that is what mc cable is for


There are always situations where you don't work in a perfect world and need to work with what you have..


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## 480sparky

journeymanjo said:


> why would any electrician erun exposed romex, i cant believe your even discussing running romex exposed on a wall. just poor workmanship, aeven under a sink that is what mc cable is for



Using Carlon boxes is 'just poor workmanship'. Installing USE cable is 'just poor workmanship'. Using NM staples that don't have a ton of plastic on them is 'just poor workmanship'. Back-stabbing devices is 'just poor workmanship'. Putting splices in a panel is 'just poor workmanship'. Burying UF cable is 'just poor workmanship'.

Ad nuseum ad infinitum.


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## 220/221

It's done all the time in some areas, never in others. 

It's all about interpetation of "subject to damage" or "where necessary"


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## B4T

480sparky said:


> Using Carlon boxes is 'just poor workmanship'. Installing USE cable is 'just poor workmanship'. Using NM staples that don't have a ton of plastic on them is 'just poor workmanship'. Back-stabbing devices is 'just poor workmanship'. Putting splices in a panel is 'just poor workmanship'. Burying UF cable is 'just poor workmanship'.
> 
> Ad nuseum ad infinitum.


You have been in a raggy mood all day.. someone pee in your corn flakes.. :laughing:


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## 480sparky

B4T said:


> You have been in a raggy mood all day.. someone pee in your corn flakes.. :laughing:



No one peed in my corn flakes. Someone left some Scotchkote in my corn flakes. :whistling2::laughing:


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## journeymanjo

B4T said:


> There are always situations where you don't work in a perfect world and need to work with what you have..


what you have is wiremold, conduit, or mc cable,


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## BBQ

journeymanjo said:


> why would any electrician erun exposed romex,


I don't know, that was not the question.




> i cant believe your even discussing running romex exposed on a wall.


The guy asked a question, I am giving him a code answer. 



> just poor workmanship, aeven under a sink that is what mc cable is for


Whatever you say, after all you are unionized. :laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## journeymanjo

BBQ said:


> I don't know, that was not the question.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The guy asked a question, I am giving him a code answer.
> 
> 
> 
> Whatever you say, after all you are unionized. :laughing::laughing::laughing:


exposem nm cable on a living space wall, still shaking my head, poor workmanship. why not use wiremold? maybe you'd like to unionize?


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## NolaTigaBait

journeymanjo said:


> exposem nm cable on a living space wall, still shaking my head, poor workmanship. why not use wiremold? maybe you'd like to unionize?


What don't you get? He' s not arguing "workmanship"...A question was asked if was legal and he answered it.


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## journeymanjo

NolaTigaBait said:


> What don't you get? He' s not arguing "workmanship"...A question was asked if was legal and he answered it.


 its not legal, would like to see the inspectors face when he walks into a home and romex is stapled to all the interior walls, thank god you dont work around me


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## brian john

1capybara said:


> Another sparky and me disagree on this. *Common sense and practice says you cannot run romex exposed on the walls in a residential house* - only allowed to do that in attics, crawl spaces, garages, unfinished basements, etc. but not in someones bedroom, hall, living room etc. He says "yes you can" I say "no you cant where exposed to physical damage." He says "yes you can, what damage is it exposed to?" I say "children, besides, no inspector in America is going to allow that as far as i know" what do you think? is there a code section or something I can quote him?


 
You said common sense and practice, neither have anything to do with the NEC.


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## brian john

journeymanjo said:


> its not legal, would like to see the inspectors face when he walks into a home and romex is stapled to all the interior walls, thank god you dont work around me


Post the NEC article please.


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## JmanAllen

If nothing else that fact that code says all work is to be done in a neat workman like manner should rule it out.

Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


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## brian john

JmanAllen said:


> If nothing else that fact that code says all work is to be done in a neat workman like manner should rule it out.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


 
No go on that one, one mans workmanship is another mans hack.

Has anyone ever heard about a electrician being turned down for workmanship by an inspector?


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## BBQ

JmanAllen said:


> If nothing else that fact that code says all work is to be done in a neat workman like manner should rule it out.


The NFPA considers both of those terms 'neat' & 'workmanship' to be vague and possibly unenforceable.

The following is from the NFPA manual of style.


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## NolaTigaBait

journeymanjo said:


> its not legal, would like to see the inspectors face when he walks into a home and romex is stapled to all the interior walls, thank god you dont work around me


Did you read the code section above where it states that it is legal?...I've never done it myself,and I think it is hack, but it doesn't really matter what I think, the code says its ok. Here, I can run romex in pipe outside and the inspector passes it everytime, its illegal , yet it gets passed hmmmmmmm


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## NolaTigaBait

brian john said:


> No go on that one, one mans workmanship is another mans hack.
> 
> Has anyone ever heard about a electrician being turned down for workmanship by an inspector?


That's a great point. An inspector yelled at me and basically told me I was a hack for using pvc outside...go figure...Its the same guy who failed me for not running a "ground" to each service disconnect b/c I used pvc nipples. Also, thanks Bob for posting that.


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## brian john

I do not know about other areas but NM under sinks for the GD is common here.


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## B4T

journeymanjo said:


> why would any electrician erun exposed romex, i cant believe your even discussing running romex exposed on a wall. just poor workmanship, aeven under a sink that is what mc cable is for


Here is a perfect example you to think about..

Say a HO has a garage that he converted to office space.. drywall on (3) sides..

My job is to install receptacles on the (3) finished walls.. the unfinished wall is going to be closet space..

I can snake down the wall cavity on all the finished walls and staple the NM to the top plate along the wall space..

HO puts in a suspended ceiling so he can have 2X4 florescent lights and run duct work for heat and AC..

Job is code compliant and I didn't need wire mold.. :thumbsup:


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## robnj772

journeymanjo said:


> why would any electrician erun exposed romex, i cant believe your even discussing running romex exposed on a wall. just poor workmanship, aeven under a sink that is what mc cable is for


I can't believe you would use mc under a sink unless you just stole a piece from your day job. 
Romex is more then acceptable,if your worried about damage just sleeve it car flex.

When I see mc in a house I know that some union side jobbing thief was there.

Sent from my iPad using ET Forum


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## journeymanjo

NolaTigaBait said:


> Did you read the code section above where it states that it is legal?...I've never done it myself,and I think it is hack, but it doesn't really matter what I think, the code says its ok. Here, I can run romex in pipe outside and the inspector passes it everytime, its illegal , yet it gets passed hmmmmmmm


why wouldnt he allow it in pipe nec section 334.15 (B)


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## JmanAllen

brian john said:


> No go on that one, one mans workmanship is another mans hack.
> 
> Has anyone ever heard about a electrician being turned down for workmanship by an inspector?


Yes I have seen an inspector fail a guy because of the workmanship He had installed some stuff that didn't run down plum from the ceiling to the floor. Told him to straighten it up and call him back

Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


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## NolaTigaBait

JmanAllen said:


> Yes I have seen an inspector fail a guy because of the workmanship He had installed some stuff that didn't run down plum from the ceiling to the floor. Told him to straighten it up and call him back
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


Joke.


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## NolaTigaBait

journeymanjo said:


> why wouldnt he allow it in pipe nec section 334.15 (B)


Well, lets see.....hmmmmm...romex is NOT allowed in wet or damp locations for starters.


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## NolaTigaBait

robnj772 said:


> I can't believe you would use mc under a sink unless you just stole a piece from your day job.
> Romex is more then acceptable,if your worried about damage just sleeve it car flex.
> 
> When I see mc in a house I know that some union side jobbing thief was there.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using ET Forum


Hell, MC isn't allowed to be exposed to physical damage either, so I'm not sure what the hell they want...


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## McClary’s Electrical

BBQ said:


> Seems pretty clear that NM is allowed to be run exposed on top of the building finish.


I agree


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## electricmanscott

JmanAllen said:


> Yes I have seen an inspector fail a guy because of the workmanship He had installed some stuff that didn't run down plum from the ceiling to the floor. Told him to straighten it up and call him back
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


*B*ravo *S*ierra :no:


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## Dennis Alwon

journeymanjo said:


> why wouldnt he allow it in pipe nec section 334.15 (B)


Read art. 300.9


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## journeymanjo

NolaTigaBait said:


> That's a great point. An inspector yelled at me and basically told me I was a hack for using pvc outside...go figure...Its the same guy who failed me for not running a "ground" to each service disconnect b/c I used pvc nipples. Also, thanks Bob for posting that.


you should have been failed, its called bonding, art. 250.130A talks briefly about this. what would happen if you would have lost a grouding electrode conductor at one of the services, without the services being bonded? you could have a shock hazard.


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## Jefro

robnj772 said:


> I can't believe you would use mc under a sink unless you just stole a piece from your day job.
> Romex is more then acceptable,if your worried about damage just sleeve it car flex.
> 
> When I see mc in a house I know that some union side jobbing thief was there.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using ET Forum


You should see my basement...


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## journeymanjo

brian john said:


> I do not know about other areas but NM under sinks for the GD is common here.


yeah probably didnt install a special purpose rect. for the gd,so the home owner has the convience to unplug the gd to service it. or replace it. it is what it is, poor workmanship
,


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## Dennis Alwon

journeymanjo said:


> you should have been failed, its called bonding, art. 250.130A talks briefly about this. what would happen if you would have lost a grouding electrode conductor at one of the services, without the services being bonded? you could have a shock hazard.


What does a grounding electrode conductor have to do equipment grounding & shock hazard.


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## Frasbee

journeymanjo said:


> yeah probably didnt install a special purpose rect. for the gd,so the home owner has the convience to unplug the gd to service it. or replace it. it is what it is, poor workmanship
> ,


Is somebody pouting?


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## 480sparky

​


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## journeymanjo

Dennis Alwon said:


> What does a grounding electrode conductor have to do equipment grounding & shock hazard.


 where does your grounding conductor connect to? loose your grounding electrode conductor where is the path to ground if someone gets between your unbonded disconnect and groud 99 time out of 100 no problem have a current leakage to ground and you now have a shock hazard, gotta be bonded thats that.


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## journeymanjo

Frasbee said:


> Is somebody pouting?


 nope just humored at the level of craftsmanship


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## Dennis Alwon

journeymanjo said:


> where does your grounding conductor connect to?


 You said grounding electrode conductor not grounding conductor- they are very different.


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## NolaTigaBait

Dennis Alwon said:


> You said grounding electrode conductor not grounding conductor- they are very different.


Another "journeyman" that doesn't know jack.


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## NolaTigaBait

journeymanjo said:


> you should have been failed, its called bonding, art. 250.130A talks briefly about this. what would happen if you would have lost a grouding electrode conductor at one of the services, without the services being bonded? you could have a shock hazard.


Are you serious? So I can't use pvc nipples, huh?...:no: You are a joke, dude.


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## user4818

Exposed romex is one of those evils that simply cannot be comprehended.


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## B4T

NolaTigaBait said:


> Another "journeyman" that doesn't know jack.


maybe Hackwork is a better fit..:laughing::thumbup::laughing:


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## 480sparky

journeymanjo said:


> where does your grounding conductor connect to?


The neutral bar of the service panel, so it's tied to the service neutral. Which, BTW, is the lowest path of impedence.



journeymanjo said:


> loose your grounding electrode conductor where is the path to ground


Same as above. I don't install CEEs and ground rods to carry any fault current.



journeymanjo said:


> if someone gets between your unbonded disconnect and groud 99 time out of 100 no problem have a current leakage to ground and you now have a shock hazard, gotta be bonded thats that.


So you need to 1. lose your service neutral, 2. lose your grounding electrode conductor and 3. energize the exterior of the panel. How often is that actually going to happen in the real world? Has _anyone _ever seen all three of these things happen at once? Anyone? Beuller? Beuller?


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## journeymanjo

NolaTigaBait said:


> Are you serious? So I can't use pvc nipples, huh?...:no: You are a joke, dude.


 sure you can use pvc nipples i use the all the time but they do not bond anything. do you understand a rigid nipple and lock nuts bonds the two enclosures?


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## Dennis Alwon

Peter D said:


> Exposed romex is one of those evils that simply cannot be comprehended.


Like Se cable. :thumbsup:


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## journeymanjo

480sparky said:


> journeymanjo said:
> 
> 
> 
> where does your grounding conductor connect to?
> 
> The neutral bar of the service panel, so it's tied to the service neutral.
> 
> Same as above.
> 
> 
> 
> So you need to 1. lose your service neutral, 2. lose your grounding electrode conductor and 3. energize the exterior of the panel. How often is that actually going to happen in the real world? Has _anyone _ever seen all three of these things happen at once? Anyone? Beuller? Beuller?
> 
> 
> 
> not on a sub panel it isnt
Click to expand...


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## 480sparky

Dennis Alwon said:


> Like Se cable. :thumbsup:


Not nearly as evil as Carlon blue nail-ons. :whistling2: Houses spontaneously erupt into flame if they're within 500' of one.


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## Dennis Alwon

journeymanjo said:


> sure you can use pvc nipples i use the all the time but they do not bond anything. do you understand a rigid nipple and lock nuts bonds the two enclosures?


Nola is talking about PVC nipple between the meter and the service disconnect- no bonding required.


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## 480sparky

journeymanjo said:


> not on a sub panel it isnt


OK, so what's your question about SUB panels, and why do THEY have to do with grounding electrode conductors? Better answer fast, my dance card is getting filled up and you seem to like dancing.


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## B4T

480sparky said:


> Not nearly as evil as Carlon blue nail-ons. :whistling2: Houses spontaneously erupt into flame if they're within 500' of one.


Show me ONE post where anyone said those boxes are a fire hazard.. nice try..:no::laughing:


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## NolaTigaBait

journeymanjo said:


> sure you can use pvc nipples i use the all the time but they do not bond anything. do you understand a rigid nipple and lock nuts bonds the two enclosures?


Nope. I don't. The main bonding jumper bonds the enclosures, last time I checked.


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## user4818

B4T said:


> Show me ONE post where anyone said those boxes are a fire hazard.. nice try..:no::laughing:



I can show you plenty where they are automatically associated with hack work.


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## 480sparky

B4T said:


> Show me ONE post where anyone said those boxes are a fire hazard.. nice try..:no::laughing:



Oh c'mon now..... we've all agreed that Carlon blue nail-ons are the worst thing to happen to the electrical trade, followed by SEU cable, Scotchkote and NM staples that don't have shock absorbers built into them. :laughing:


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## user4818

480sparky said:


> Oh c'mon now..... we've all agreed that Carlon blue nail-ons are the worst thing to happen to the electrical trade, followed by SEU cable, Scotchkote and NM staples that don't have shock absorbers built into them. :laughing:


What about buried PVC boxes with UF connectors in the bottom of them? :laughing:


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## journeymanjo

480sparky said:


> The neutral bar of the service panel, so it's tied to the service neutral. Which, BTW, is the lowest path of impedence.
> your lowest path to ground is your grouding electrode conductor
> 
> 
> Same as above. I don't install CEEs and ground rods to carry any fault current.
> 
> 
> 
> So you need to 1. lose your service neutral, 2. lose your grounding electrode conductor and 3. energize the exterior of the panel. How often is that actually going to happen in the real world? Has _anyone _ever seen all three of these things happen at once? Anyone? Beuller? Beuller?


 you dont need to loose your service neutral, a sub panel enclosure is not bonded to the service neutral, have a pump water heater wahtever leaking to ground without the service enclosure being bonded you have a setup for a shock hazard,


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## B4T

Peter D said:


> I can show you plenty where they are automatically associated with hack work.


Stick with the question I asked..:no:


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## journeymanjo

Dennis Alwon said:


> You said grounding electrode conductor not grounding conductor- they are very different.


thats right grounding electrode conductorim talking about the grounding electrode conductor


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## BuzzKill

Work on your definitions Journeymanjo.


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## Dennis Alwon

You need to get your terminologies straight-- you went from GEC to sub panels to grounding conductors. I can't discuss things if you are changing your meaning everytime.


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## user4818

> Seems there are a lot of sheep tuning into FOX NEWS these days and of course Bill O'reilly is still king of the mountain.. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0...=1_The_OReilly


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## B4T

Peter D said:


> What about buried PVC boxes with UF connectors in the bottom of them? :laughing:


I switch to 3/8" holes instead of useless connectors.. you need to update my file.. :laughing:


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## 480sparky

journeymanjo said:


> thats right grounding electrode conductorim talking about the grounding electrode conductor



So remove your GEC and what will happen?



















A: Nothing. No shock hazard will suddenly be created.


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## journeymanjo

NolaTigaBait said:


> Another "journeyman" that doesn't know jack.


 ya know maybe you need too just sit back and read maybe youll learn something yeah im a journeyman you?


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## user4818

B4T said:


> I switch to 3/8" holes instead of useless connectors.. you need to update my file.. :laughing:


I'll add that to the list. :blink:


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## B4T

Peter D said:


> I'll add that to the list. :blink:


BTW.. what connector do you use with a "hand hole" box.. THAT is my point..:thumbsup:


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## journeymanjo

480sparky said:


> So remove your GEC and what will happen?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> never said it is a instant shocck hazard, that sytem could stay that way for decades and never have a problem let lightning strick your mast on your service and see what happens, probably nothing right? just ttake 10 minutes bond it and thats that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A: Nothing. No shock hazard will suddenly be created.


 never said it would be a sudden shock hazard,


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## journeymanjo

Dennis Alwon said:


> You need to get your terminologies straight-- you went from GEC to sub panels to grounding conductors. I can't discuss things if you are changing your meaning everytime.


no lets face it you didnt think about the bonding issues with a subpanel did you, just quick to make judgement calls, ive been talking about one thing bonding you are the one making senerios on why it could not be a shock hazard.


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## Dennis Alwon

journeymanjo said:


> no lets face it you didnt think about the bonding issues with a subpanel did you, just quick to make judgement calls, ive been talking about one thing bonding you are the one making senerios on why it could not be a shock hazard.


We all must be making the same mistakes- not you, BTW I am done- when you are finished trolling let me know.


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## nitro71

Anyways.. In WA we can't run exposed NM in a residence unde like 8' or so. I always sleeve any exposed NM in flex or EMT under 8'.


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## user4818

nitro71 said:


> Anyways.. In WA we can't run exposed NM in a residence unde like 8' or so.


As I always say, that's to protect it from the axe and chainsaw wielding maniacs. :laughing:


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## journeymanjo

Dennis Alwon said:


> We all must be making the same mistakes- not you, BTW I am done- when you are finished trolling let me know.


 just remember to bond your pvc service disconnect pipes,


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## BuzzKill

journeymanjo said:


> just remember to bond your pvc service disconnect pipes,


what?:laughing:


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## user4818

journeymanjo said:


> just remember to bond your pvc service disconnect pipes,


The troll is strong with this one.


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## Dennis Alwon

journeymanjo said:


> just remember to bond your pvc service disconnect pipes,


Thank you -- I have so much to learn from you.


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## journeymanjo

Dennis Alwon said:


> Thank you -- I have so much to learn from you.


 personally i could care les what you learn obviously if you havent learned it by know you probably wont, tell me why you wouldnt bond se disconnects?


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## 480sparky

journeymanjo said:


> ya know maybe you need too just sit back and read maybe youll learn something yeah im a journeyman you?














Not to toot my own horn, but it's been years since I was a lowly JW. Been a Master now for a long long time. You?​


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## journeymanjo

480sparky said:


> Not to toot my own horn, but it's been years since I was a lowly JW. Been a Master now for a long long time. You?​


 i bow to you master im a industrial journeyman, gave the residential/ commercial ratrace up years ago. when i grow up i hope im not like you


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## 480sparky

journeymanjo said:


> i bow to you master im a industrial journeyman, gave the residential/ commercial ratrace up years ago. when i grow up i hope im not like you


Come back when you grow up, then.


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## user4818

Don't feed the Peter D....I mean, the troll. :laughing:


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## A Little Short

*$100,000.000*

Don't usually ever criticize anyone's spelling but I've read a ton of mr. journey boy's threads and I think he should take some of that $100,000.000 and buy some spelling lessons and an attitude adjustment. Then if there's any left maybe a code book. :thumbup:


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## BuzzKill

journeymanjo said:


> just remember to bond your pvc service disconnect pipes,


why bond plastic nipples? even if your pvc disco's were plastic and your nipples were rigid, why do it?


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## Speedy Petey

journeymanjo said:


> ya know maybe you need too just sit back and read maybe youll learn something yeah im a journeyman you?


If you notice, I "Thanked" you for this post. That was thanking you for the laugh I had. It was genuine. 

OK, I have to ask (and I know I am not the only one wondering); how old are you? Really.


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## NolaTigaBait

He knows what he knows b/c he's seen it done that way and only that way...deviate from what he has seen and all he can say is that its wrong...


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## I_get_shocked

> This message is hidden because *journeymanjo* is on your ignore list.


......................:whistling2:


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## journeymanjo

BuzzKill said:


> why bond plastic nipples? even if your pvc disco's were plastic and your nipples were rigid, why do it?


 excuse me i was refering to bonding the enclosures inwhich the pvc nipples were used my mistake


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## electricmanscott

journeymanjo said:


> excuse me i was refering to bonding the enclosures inwhich the pvc nipples were used my mistake


The service enclosure _should_ be bonded to the grounded conductor of the service.


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## journeymanjo

electricmanscott said:


> The service enclosure _should_ be bonded to the grounded conductor of the service.


not on a subpanel


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## electricmanscott

NolaTigaBait said:


> That's a great point. An inspector yelled at me and basically told me I was a hack for using pvc outside...go figure...Its the same guy who failed me for not running a "ground" to each service disconnect b/c I used pvc nipples. Also, thanks Bob for posting that.





journeymanjo said:


> you should have been failed, its called bonding, art. 250.130A talks briefly about this. what would happen if you would have lost a grouding electrode conductor at one of the services, without the services being bonded? you could have a shock hazard.





electricmanscott said:


> The service enclosure _should_ be bonded to the grounded conductor of the service.





journeymanjo said:


> not on a subpanel



The discussion is about service enclosures.


----------



## robnj772

electricmanscott said:


> The discussion is about service enclosures.


Actually the thread is about exposed nm.

Sent from my iPad using ET Forum


----------



## 480sparky

Speedy Petey said:


> ...........OK, I have to ask (and I know I am not the only one wondering); how old are you? Really.


Age is not relevant to trolls.


----------



## electricmanscott

robnj772 said:


> Actually the thread is about exposed nm.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using ET Forum


That was settled in post #2


----------



## electricmanscott

Really B4t??? You are thanking for that comment? Puhhhleeeze. You are the king of derailing threads. Usually with useless drivel.


----------



## B4T

electricmanscott said:


> Really B4t??? You are thanking for that comment? Puhhhleeeze. You are the king of derailing threads. Usually with useless drivel.


Either put me on ignore or STFU.. that should be simple enough for you to understand.. :thumbsup:

I don't see anyone else complaining about my posts so it must be you..


----------



## Dennis Alwon

Let's play nice. Thanks


----------



## electricmanscott

Pinhead or Patriot?? :laughing:


----------



## journeymanjo

electricmanscott said:


> The discussion is about service enclosures.


 a sub panel is a service enclosure.....


----------



## B4T




----------



## macmikeman

electricmanscott said:


> Really B4t??? You are thanking for that comment? Puhhhleeeze. You are the king of derailing threads. Usually with useless drivel.



Hold a second here, I am the king of derailing threads with useless drivel and you know its really hard work to be the king, so I would appreciate more deserved respect.......


----------



## journeymanjo

thank goddness for inspecters


----------



## electricmanscott

journeymanjo said:


> a sub panel is a service enclosure.....


No it is not.


----------



## electricmanscott

journeymanjo said:


> thank goddness for inspecters


:laughing: :thumbup:


----------



## HARRY304E

macmikeman said:


> Hold a second here, I am the king of derailing threads with useless drivel and you know its really hard work to be the king, so I would appreciate more deserved respect.......


No way...:laughing::thumbup::laughing:


----------



## gold

B4T said:


> Either put me on ignore or STFU


FTW!! :thumbsup:


----------



## journeymanjo

electricmanscott said:


> No it is not.


ok what ever you say


----------



## BBQ

journeymanjo said:


> sure you can use pvc nipples i use the all the time but they do not bond anything. do you understand a rigid nipple and lock nuts bonds the two enclosures?


And you clearly have no clue what the code requires.:laughing:

The service enclosure he was talking about was already bonded.

_You really need to get over yourself._ You may be a great troubleshooter but you don't know s hit about the code or basic practices.:no:


----------



## BBQ

journeymanjo said:


> a sub panel is a service enclosure.....


Actually no it is not ......ever.

Pick up a code book (You do have one?) and read about service equipment.


----------



## journeymanjo

BBQ said:


> Actually no it is not ......ever.
> 
> Pick up a code book (You do have one?) and read about service equipment.


yeah have a number them dating back to the 1978 code book , by the way were were you in 1978?

how can you tell me his sub panel is already bonded? i really think you need to review art. 230 and 250 i would guess you arent working with these parts of the code much....


----------



## BBQ

journeymanjo said:


> yeah have a number them


You should keep the latest one beside you if you are going to comment about what the code requires. 




> dating back to the 1978 code book , by the way were were you in 1978?


In '78 I was 14, but by '80 I was sitting in trade school with the 1978 NEC. 



> how can you tell me his sub panel is already bonded?


Why do you keep insisting it is a sub panel?

I agree if it was a subpanel there would be a problem. But it was not a subpanel it was a service disconnecting means.

In the case of a service disconnecting means it is bonded by the MGN (Multi Grounded Neutral) also known as the grounded conductor. (neutral)

All enclosures on the supply side of the service disconnecting means such as meter sockets, troughs, gutters etc. will also all be directly bonded to the grounded conductor.



> *250.142 Use of Grounded Circuit Conductor for
> Grounding Equipment.
> 
> (A) Supply-Side Equipment.* A grounded circuit conductor
> shall be permitted to ground non–current-carrying metal
> parts of equipment, raceways, and other enclosures at any
> of the following locations:
> 
> (1) On the supply side or within the enclosure of the ac
> service-disconnecting means
> 
> (2) On the supply side or within the enclosure of the main
> disconnecting means for separate buildings as provided
> in 250.32(B)
> 
> (3) On the supply side or within the enclosure of the main
> disconnecting means or overcurrent devices of a separately
> derived system where permitted by 250.30(A)(1)


Now when you do see bonding jumpers between enclosures and the raceways those are in place to bond the raceway to the already bonded enclosure.

When you use PVC raceways there is no need to try to bond the PVC raceway. 





> i really think you need to review art. 230 and 250


See, when you say things like that it makes you seem like a bit of a dolt. :laughing:

Many guys here may not like me, but I doubt many would say I don't know my code. Particularly Articles 90 through say 450. I am a code geek. :laughing:

But I will admit I don't know jack about hazardous location rules. 



> i would guess you arent working with these parts of the code much....


So, as a troubleshooter in a large plant are you designing and installing a lot of services?:laughing:


----------



## forgotflying

BBQ said:


> Actually no it is not ......ever.
> 
> Pick up a code book (You do have one?) and read about service equipment.


couldn't resist:jester:
meter main sub-panel not a service enclosure?:thumbup:

7ft and above in Hawaii.
You didn't think that 500$ price reduction came out of my check did you?


----------



## Jlarson

Oh my god exposed Romex, panic!!!! :no:

Some of you take this whole electrical trade and craftsmanship thing WAY to seriously.


----------



## 76nemo

Hell, it's an AFCI/combo protected, tamper-resistant, insulated stapled, ground up device.

Lagy Gaga would ride it........


----------



## robnj772

Jlarson said:


> Oh my god exposed Romex, panic!!!! :no:
> 
> Some of you take this whole electrical trade and craftsmanship thing WAY to seriously.


I am sure 90% of the ones that do just lie about it on here.

There is no way half these liars actually perform in the field like they boast on here. They would be fired for no being productive or they wouldn't make money on jobs working for themselves.

Its all about profit and working in the real world,not the ET world


----------



## 76nemo

robnj772 said:


> I am sure 90% of the ones that do just lie about it on here.
> 
> There is no way half these liars actually perform in the field like they boast on here. They would be fired for no being productive or they wouldn't make money on jobs working for themselves.
> 
> Its all about profit and working in the real world,not the ET world


 

I wasn't expecting that from you...........


----------



## brian john

journeymanjo said:


> thank goddness for inspecters


 
What does God have to do with this.


----------



## Jlarson

BBQ said:


> but you don't know s hit about the code or basic practices.


Can't be a very good troubleshooter then :no:


----------



## brian john

BBQ said:


> In '78 I was 14, but by '80 I was sitting in trade school with the 1978 NEC.


Youngster



> Many guys here may not like me, but I doubt many would say I don't know my code. Particularly Articles 90 through say 450. I am a code geek. :laughing:
> ?:laughing:


I like you (for what that is worth) in addition I have immense respect for your code knowledge. Something journeymanjo could earn (not that he cares) if he could be involved in one thread where he could prove he knew ANYTHING.

I still think he is a troll, nobody is that stupid or ignorant and continues to post. Go back to New Jersey (for the members from NJ sorry to relegate him to Jersey)


----------



## BBQ

forgotflying said:


> couldn't resist:jester:
> meter main sub-panel not a service enclosure?:thumbup:


That is not a sub panel is it? :no:


----------



## BBQ

brian john said:


> Youngster


No doubt compared to many here:laughing:, but JO asked me what I was doing in 78.





(And thanks for the kind words)


----------



## brian john

BBQ said:


> No doubt compared to many here:laughing:, but JO asked me what I was doing in 78.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (And thanks for the kind words)


In 78 I was getting a divorce, and the kind words are the truth. There are a few here that have an immense wealth of knowledge, I more than admire.

With a few here we could make a killing in the business, but we most likely kill each other first, personalities and all.


----------



## NolaTigaBait

brian john said:


> Youngster
> 
> 
> 
> I like you (for what that is worth) in addition I have immense respect for your code knowledge. Something journeymanjo could earn (not that he cares) if he could be involved in one thread where he could prove he knew ANYTHING.
> 
> I still think he is a troll, nobody is that stupid or ignorant and continues to post. Go back to New Jersey (for the members from NJ sorry to relegate him to Jersey)


Yes , they are. He sounds exactly like the inspector I was dealing with. The same exact arguments.


----------



## BBQ

brian john said:


> With a few here we could make a killing in the business, *but we most likely kill each other first,* personalities and all.


LMAO!!

Yeah, I can see that would be a problem.:laughing::laughing:


----------



## robnj772

brian john said:


> I still think he is a troll, nobody is that stupid or ignorant and continues to post. Go back to New Jersey (for the members from NJ sorry to relegate him to Jersey)


 
His profile says ohio.... Just sayin.... :whistling2:


----------



## McClary’s Electrical

journeymanjo said:


> a sub panel is a service enclosure.....


 

NOW THAT"S FUNNY:laughing:


----------



## macmikeman

Here is the work schedule for the new ET electrical company: Pay attention, I don't want to have to deal with any slackers.


Show up at 7:00 am , don't even think about being late cause you never know when the wind will come up and turn conditions from glassy to blown out, so we all want an early start.

We paddle out at 7:10 am sharp. 


2 hrs later we come in to the beach and get ready to go do some actual work.

1 hr later, arrive at jobsite.

Work 1 hr. Hey its lunchtime- lets go on break now. I always try to take a nice nap at lunch by the way, its good for the soul and health..


1:00 pm - 3:00 pm, attempt to do some more work.

3:00 pm- 3:15 pm, clean up and roll up tools and lock down site.

3:30- head back to the beach for the evening glass off session.

Cowabunga.....


----------



## NolaTigaBait

Thats pretty much what I do now, without the surfing and all...


----------



## brian john

macmikeman said:


> Here is the work schedule for the new ET electrical company: Pay attention, I don't want to have to deal with any slackers.
> 
> 
> Cowabunga.....


When do we post to ET?


----------



## macmikeman

brian john said:


> When do we post to ET?


On days when its flat or we are too sunburned to surf.....:thumbsup:


----------



## MattMc

I like the bar electrician style extension cords everywhere. If it's in a finished room it has to be behind drywall unless you are hack. In somewhere like a garage, basement or workshop bx is good. Wasn't there already a thread about this not too long ago?


----------



## Jlarson

robnj772 said:


> There is no way half these liars actually perform in the field like they boast on here. They would be fired for no being productive or they wouldn't make money on jobs working for themselves.


I know I'd never let my guys waste time, materials and the clients money like some of the guys here claim too.


----------



## itsunclebill

As a kid I remember being in several cabins at camps and such that had surface run wire (romex) that was attached to surface mounted receptacles, switches, and lamp sockets. Even helped my grandfather install a few. The sockets seem to have disappeared from the market but the switches and receptacles seem to be available on E-Bay and at a number of on-line hardware stores - UL listed and all for surface mounted wire. 

This stuff was available in stores alongside other types of devices almost everywhere they were sold for years. The stuff I remember was 2 wire receptacles but I see the grounding type is available - don't see them in TR though:blink:

I really don't remember seeing these things around after the mid to late 60s, but on the other hand wasn't looking for them either.


----------



## brian john

macmikeman said:


> On days when its flat or we are too sunburned to surf.....:thumbsup:


I am fairly well tanned (I THOUGHT) I forgot about my baseball hat forehead. Recently in Florida, spending hours in the Atlantic, I paid the price.


----------



## brian john

Jlarson said:


> I know I'd never let my guys waste time, materials and the clients money like some of the guys here claim too.


I can truthfully say I require to the NEC (and neat to my standards) and have made men go back and change stuff, costing me money, as recent as yesterday. I do independent inspections and how can I let me men do hack work and then write up an EC for hack work. Imagine the meeting where the EC says “but he does it” as he tosses out 8x11 glossies of hack work.

I do not tolerate it.


----------



## Jlarson

There's a difference between hack work and "hack work". The former is work that is not code compliant and the latter is work that doesn't conform to some people's ideas of how electrical work should be done.


----------



## journeymanjo

BBQ said:


> You should keep the latest one beside you if you are going to comment about what the code requires.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In '78 I was 14, but by '80 I was sitting in trade school with the 1978 NEC.
> 
> 
> 
> Why do you keep insisting it is a sub panel?
> 
> I agree if it was a subpanel there would be a problem. But it was not a subpanel it was a service disconnecting means.
> 
> In the case of a service disconnecting means it is bonded by the MGN (Multi Grounded Neutral) also known as the grounded conductor. (neutral)
> 
> All enclosures on the supply side of the service disconnecting means such as meter sockets, troughs, gutters etc. will also all be directly bonded to the grounded conductor.
> 
> 
> 
> Now when you do see bonding jumpers between enclosures and the raceways those are in place to bond the raceway to the already bonded enclosure.
> 
> When you use PVC raceways there is no need to try to bond the PVC raceway.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> See, when you say things like that it makes you seem like a bit of a dolt. :laughing:
> 
> Many guys here may not like me, but I doubt many would say I don't know my code. Particularly Articles 90 through say 450. I am a code geek. :laughing:
> 
> But I will admit I don't know jack about hazardous location rules.
> 
> 
> 
> So, as a troubleshooter in a large plant are you designing and installing a lot of services?:laughing:


 URD and PVC between the meter socket and the service disconnect and i guess you still would not bond the enclosures?????? maybe all you use is se for services????? seen many things and grounding and bonding is the of the upmost importance, i firgive you for being ignorant of bonding pvc


----------



## Jlarson

journeymanjo said:


> URD and PVC between the meter socket and the service disconnect and i guess you still would not bond the enclosures??????


Bond them to what. The meter socket is connected to the grounded conductor and so is the service disco, no need to do anything more.


----------



## journeymanjo

Jlarson said:


> Bond them to what. The meter socket is connected to the grounded conductor and so is the service disco, no need to do anything more.


when using urd and pve you bond the two enclosures, thats right the grounded conductor is bonded. i teel you one other thing when i install ridgid conduit for a service i always bond the enclousures. just doesnt make a lot of sense not to. a piece of #4 wire and a couple of locknuts.


----------



## Jim Port

Eight pages and someone is still saying you need to bond a non-conductive material. WTH?


----------



## Dennis Alwon

Jim Port said:


> Eight pages and someone is still saying you need to bond a non-conductive material. WTH?


We are either being taken for or there is miscommunication. Yes the service gets bonded but it is bonded thru the neural of the meter panel. The service disconnect has a screw or a wire that gets bonded from the can to the neutral. Metal pipe must be bonded, pvc , of course not. Sub panel is grounded thru the equipment grounding conductor-- either a metal pipe or a wire. Gec gets landed at the service only. AIf the poster is using improper terminology then it is meaningless to argue.


----------



## NolaTigaBait

Dennis Alwon said:


> We are either being taken for or there is miscommunication. Yes the service gets bonded but it is bonded thru the neural of the meter panel. The service disconnect has a screw or a wire that gets bonded from the can to the neutral. Metal pipe must be bonded, pvc , of course not. Sub panel is grounded thru the equipment grounding conductor-- either a metal pipe or a wire. Gec gets landed at the service only. AIf the poster is using improper terminology then it is meaningless to argue.


Dennis, I honestly don't know if he's a troll or not. But, he is as hard-headed as the inspector that failed me. He just doesn't get it. Pal, it's bonded from the neutral at the meter can, then the main bonding jumper(you know that little green screw that you screw to the neutral bar) at the service disconnect.


----------



## Speedy Petey

journeymanjo said:


> when using urd and pve you bond the two enclosures, thats right the grounded conductor is bonded.


NO YOU DON'T. 

When using PVC between the meter and panel NO additional bond is installed between them. The grounded service conductor is your bond.


----------



## Cletis

*Bonding*

I was told by a very old inspector that bonding with rigid or rmc and tight connections is much better than using a conductor due to the skin effect. He ranted that all these new guys using SEU and PVC with little #2 conductors for bonding were ruining the trade.


----------



## NolaTigaBait

Cletis said:


> I was told by a very old inspector that bonding with rigid or rmc and tight connections is much better than using a conductor due to the skin effect. He ranted that all these new guys using SEU and PVC with little #2 conductors for bonding were ruining the trade.


What does that even mean? PVC with #2 conductors for bonding?....You don't need to run a ground in pvc that contains service conductors...Whats so freaking hard about that?


----------



## Cletis

*Inspector*

I"m just relaying what an inspector said and made me do if pvc. He would have made me run a supplemental #2 (in addition to the service grounded conductor) from CT to all disconnects. That's probably just what he wanted and I would of just did rather than argue about it. I didn't and never used pvc for nipples so it didn't affect me.


----------



## Dennis Alwon

Cletis said:


> I was told by a very old inspector that bonding with rigid or rmc and tight connections is much better than using a conductor due to the skin effect. He ranted that all these new guys using SEU and PVC with little #2 conductors for bonding were ruining the trade.


Did you tell the inspector that a rigid metal conduit between the meter and the service disconnect, although legal, creates a parallel path. Why they allow metallic conduit is of interest to me.


----------



## Cletis

*No*

No. I never argue with inspectors anymore. I've done it before and paid the price with red tags for stupid things like missing 1 panel screw. I've learned my lesson. If it is BIG then I go to head inspector and explain nicely with code ref's and he just waives the fee and passes me. 

Don't ever argue with an inspector !


----------



## NolaTigaBait

Cletis said:


> No. I never argue with inspectors anymore. I've done it before and paid the price with red tags for stupid things like missing 1 panel screw. I've learned my lesson. If it is BIG then I go to head inspector and explain nicely with code ref's and he just waives the fee and passes me.
> 
> Don't ever argue with an inspector !


I think creating parallel paths is a big deal...It was worth the argument IMO. We will see what happens next. The same guy is inspecting an underground for me Monday. Lets see if he breaks my balls.


----------



## journeymanjo

Dennis Alwon said:


> Did you tell the inspector that a rigid metal conduit between the meter and the service disconnect, although legal, creates a parallel path. Why they allow metallic conduit is of interest to me.


why they allow metallic???? what do you use for a mast? 
oh thats right creating another parrallel path. you bond it for one reason


----------



## Dennis Alwon

journeymanjo said:


> why they allow metallic???? what do you use for a mast?
> oh thats right creating another parrallel path. you bond it for one reason


So a 2" galvinized masts is connected to a meter base. The pipe is bonded automatically by being connected to the meter can. The other end goes nowhere-- how is that parallel and what does this have to do with the argument?


----------



## journeymanjo

Dennis Alwon said:


> So a 2" galvinized masts is connected to a meter base. The pipe is bonded automatically by being connected to the meter can. The other end goes nowhere-- how is that parallel and what does this have to do with the argument?


 you just ask why metallic was allowed. you just questioned the creation of a parallel path,


----------



## 480sparky




----------



## journeymanjo

NolaTigaBait said:


> Dennis, I honestly don't know if he's a troll or not. But, he is as hard-headed as the inspector that failed me. He just doesn't get it. Pal, it's bonded from the neutral at the meter can, then the main bonding jumper(you know that little green screw that you screw to the neutral bar) at the service disconnect.


 yep thats all you are relying on that little green screw, have a lightning strike on a mast and see what happens to that little green screw.


----------



## Dennis Alwon

journeymanjo said:


> you just ask why metallic was allowed. you just questioned the creation of a parallel path,


And you gave no answer so again I ask why you brought it up. I know what I said but you did not give a reason for why it is allowed. I know it is allowed in this one instance at the service.


----------



## NolaTigaBait

journeymanjo said:


> yep thats all you are relying on that little green screw, have a lightning strike on a mast and see what happens to that little green screw.


Huh?...It's for fault current to return , not for lightning protection...Thats what the GEC is for....Also, that little green screw is designed and tested by engineers.


----------



## 480sparky

journeymanjo said:


> yep thats all you are relying on that little green screw, have a lightning strike on a mast and see what happens to that little green screw.



My guess is: Nothing.


----------



## 480sparky

NolaTigaBait said:


> Huh?...It's for fault current to return , not for lightning protection...Thats what the GEC is for....Also, that little green screw is designed and tested by engineers.



Yeah, but jj is far more experienced in the matter than all those thousands of engineers at UL, ETL, CSA, NFPA, CMPs and the manufacturers. He knows. We must bow down to him.








​


----------



## Cletis

*Green Screw*

I personally run a #6 or #4 Cu from the Neutral/Ground Bar in main panel where grounded conductor lands to the other bar just in case the little green screw,bonding jumper or screws on bonding jumper fails or rust. I've seen it happen many times. Screw rust, loses connection to other bar, all neutrals lose return path. Only cost a $1 or $2


----------



## NolaTigaBait

Cletis said:


> I personally run a #6 or #4 Cu from the Neutral/Ground Bar in main panel where grounded conductor lands to the other bar just in case the little green screw,bonding jumper or screws on bonding jumper fails or rust. I've seen it happen many times. Screw rust, loses connection to other bar, all neutrals lose return path. Only cost a $1 or $2


Huh?...All that green screw does is bond the enclosure to the neutral. It affects nothing else. There is usually a factory bonding strap that bonds the neutral bars to each side.


----------



## Cletis

*Sometimes*

YEah. Sometimes but not all the time (I think). I could of swore I used to put in alot of panel where there is not bonding strap to other bar and/or you run out of room on main bar so you have to use other for some neutrals. Correct me if I'm wrong please.


----------



## Dennis Alwon

NolaTigaBait said:


> There is usually a factory bonding strap that bonds the neutral bars to each side.


That depends on the panel. The screw is not to bond to the other side. Some panels have a neutral bar on one side and nothing on the other side, The screw just bonds the enclosure.


----------



## journeymanjo

NolaTigaBait said:


> Huh?...All that green screw does is bond the enclosure to the neutral. It affects nothing else. There is usually a factory bonding strap that bonds the neutral bars to each side.


the little green screw affects nothing? leave the little green screw out of grounded bar on a main panel, see what your inspector tells you.


----------



## NolaTigaBait

Dennis Alwon said:


> That depends on the panel. The screw is not to bond to the other side. Some panels have a neutral bar on one side and nothing on the other side, The screw just bonds the enclosure.


Yeah, I know dennis....I was just saying for some panels there is a strap that goes across from bar to bar, like the Siemens for example.


----------



## NolaTigaBait

journeymanjo said:


> the little green screw affects nothing? leave the little green screw out of grounded bar on a main panel, see what your inspector tells you.


Is that all you have?...."see what the inspector tells you"..:laughing: You said the green screw is what protects you from lighting and it doesn't. All it does is bond the enclosure to the neutral. Anything else , genius?


----------



## Cletis

*Rust*

Little green screws and bonding screws can rust is all i'm saying. That's why I use a Cu conductor as supplemental bonding jumper.


----------



## NolaTigaBait

journeymanjo said:


> the little green screw affects nothing? leave the little green screw out of grounded bar on a main panel, see what your inspector tells you.


Actually I could leave the little green screw out. I can use a wire type in lieu of the screw.


----------



## NolaTigaBait

Cletis said:


> Little green screws and bonding screws can rust is all i'm saying. That's why I use a Cu conductor as supplemental bonding jumper.


So can the lug that you are using as a "supplemental" bond.


----------



## Cletis

*possible*

Yes. I guess that's possible. But, all I know is all the panels I've seen with water pouring in over months or years it seems to make the bonding screws rust real bad. I really havent seen rust in same panels where the cu conductor is in terminal. Maybe it's Cu on zinc v.s. zinc on zinc that's keeping it from rusting?


----------



## journeymanjo

Cletis said:


> Little green screws and bonding screws can rust is all i'm saying. That's why I use a Cu conductor as supplemental bonding jumper.


 i totally agree, its all about safety.


----------



## brian john

This guy cannot be this ignorant and think he knows so much. He is a troll. Now we just need to figure out if he is a regular troll or a new fool.

OR he has no business posting, (he can't type or spell and I am one of the worst at either). He cannot get his point across, he can't answer a question and he appears to KNOW NOTHING ABOUT THE CODE.


----------



## NolaTigaBait

Cletis said:


> Yes. I guess that's possible. But, all I know is all the panels I've seen with water pouring in over months or years it seems to make the bonding screws rust real bad. I really havent seen rust in same panels where the cu conductor is in terminal. Maybe it's Cu on zinc v.s. zinc on zinc that's keeping it from rusting?


Well if there is water pouring into it, I think you have bigger problems.


----------



## user4818

NolaTigaBait said:


> Well if there is water pouring into it, I think you have bigger problems.


:sleep1:


----------



## NolaTigaBait

Peter D said:


> :sleep1:


:furious:


----------



## journeymanjo

brian john said:


> This guy cannot be this ignorant and think he knows so much. He is a troll. Now we just need to figure out if he is a regular troll or a new fool.
> 
> OR he has no business posting, (he can't type or spell and I am one of the worst at either). He cannot get his point across, he can't answer a question and he appears to KNOW NOTHING ABOUT THE CODE.


 i know one thing, i need not ask questions on your foolish fourm.. and never had a red tag. i dont know anything about the code huh? well go ahead if you can think up a few 'HARD' code questions for me asshole.
when you are confronted by knowledge you seem to get very angry.


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## user4818

journeymanjo said:


> i know one thing, i need not ask questions on your foolish fourm.. and never had a red tag. i dont know anything about the code huh? well go ahead if you can think up a few 'HARD' code questions for me asshole.
> when you are confronted by knowledge you seem to get very angry.


Hi troll boy.


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## NolaTigaBait

journeymanjo said:


> i know one thing, i need not ask questions on your foolish fourm.. and never had a red tag. i dont know anything about the code huh? well go ahead if you can think up a few 'HARD' code questions for me asshole.
> when you are confronted by knowledge you seem to get very angry.


:laughing:. Ok well you failed miserably on 250.92 and 352.60 exception #2....


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## BBQ

journeymanjo said:


> i dont know anything about the code


Yeah, that is what we have been saying. :thumbsup:

Now that you realize it we can help you learn.


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## Cletis

*Foul*

Out of Context Foul. -1pt


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## Dennis Alwon

journeymanjo said:


> i dont know anything about the code huh? well go ahead if you can think up a few 'HARD' code questions for me


Try this easy one 

#1. What is the maximum overcurrent protection allowed for a 6000 watt, 240 volt Single phase water heater


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## journeymanjo

NolaTigaBait said:


> :laughing:. Ok well you failed miserably on 250.92 and 352.60 exception #2....


 whatere you say ashole, but im not the one wondering if my work will pass inspection monday???? now am i ???/ **** you asshole...... guys like you keep the inspectors very happy with 2nd, 3rd inspections hahahahhahahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhaaa


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## Cletis

*.....*

suspense builds...


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## B4T

Ask J O a simple question.. what is the membership of ***.. :laughing:


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## NolaTigaBait

journeymanjo said:


> whatere you say ashole, but im not the one wondering if my work will pass inspection monday???? now am i ???/ **** you asshole...... guys like you keep the inspectors very happy with 2nd, 3rd inspections hahahahhahahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhaaa


I guess you didn't care to read either of those sections, huh?...:laughing:


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## NolaTigaBait

B4T said:


> Ask J O a simple question.. what is the membership of ***.. :laughing:


You think?


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## Dennis Alwon

Okay guys let not get carried away. Keep it civil and lets stop the name calling- that goes for all of us.


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## NolaTigaBait

Dennis Alwon said:


> Okay guys let not get carried away. Keep it civil and lets stop the name calling- that goes for all of us.


There is only one person that brought it to that level.


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## Dennis Alwon

NolaTigaBait said:


> There is only one person that brought it to that level.


It does not matter who started it, I am just asking that it get civil again. Thanks.


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## NolaTigaBait

Dennis Alwon said:


> It does not matter who started it, I am just asking that it get civil again. Thanks.


Yeah it does. One guy gets pissed and the thread gets closed, so it kinda does.


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## journeymanjo

BBQ said:


> Yeah, that is what we have been saying. :thumbsup:
> 
> Now that you realize it we can help you learn.


look you ****ing clown i dont need your help to learn anything here. your a real ****ing joke, i stumbled across you and a few of the other assholes on this forum while at work, i can only sleep so much at work, go and try to bull**** someone else.


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## BBQ

Cletis said:


> Out of Context Foul. -1pt


Hey slack jaw, do you know what this little symbol







beside a quote does? :laughing:

Click on it and it brings you to the full quote so the context is there if you are actually interested.


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## Dennis Alwon

NolaTigaBait said:


> Yeah it does. One guy gets pissed and the thread gets closed, so it kinda does.


Nola- we started calling him troll etc. He may have been trolling but he did not start the name calling. So please stop and let's move on.


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## macmikeman

I think Red Liz has a cousin named JO.


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## rltomkinson

journeymanjo said:


> look you ****ing clown i dont need your help to learn anything here. your a real ****ing joke, i stumbled across you and a few of the other assholes on this forum while at work, i can only sleep so much at work, go and try to bull**** someone else.


Well, that sounded civil


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## NolaTigaBait

Dennis Alwon said:


> Nola- we started calling him troll etc. He may have been trolling but he did not start the name calling. So please stop and let's move on.


Well , if the shoe fits- wear it.


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## BBQ

journeymanjo said:


> look you ****ing clown i dont need your help to learn anything here. your a real ****ing joke, i stumbled across you and a few of the other assholes on this forum while at work, i can only sleep so much at work, go and try to bull**** someone else.



OK, here is a code question. 

You run a 20 amp 277 volt circuit out to a site pole, the distance is long so you decide to use 6 AWG for the grounded and ungrounded conductors.

What is the minimum size equipment grounding conductor the NEC requires for this circuit?


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## B4T

This thread is too entertaining to see it closed..


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## Cletis

*nope*



BBQ said:


> Hey slack jaw, do you know what this little symbol
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> beside a quote does? :laughing:
> 
> Click on it and it brings you to the full quote so the context is there if you are actually interested.


Nope. Never used it Mr. extremely corpulent electrician.


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## journeymanjo

BBQ said:


> OK, here is a code question.
> 
> You run a 20 amp 277 volt circuit out to a site pole, the distance is long so you decide to use 6 AWG for the grounded and ungrounded conductors.
> 
> What is the minimum size equipment grounding conductor the NEC requires for this circuit?


you have got be be kidding me your asking me size of a grounding conductor for #6 ? what kind of "hard" question is that? lets face it you cant intellegently think of any..... i got to admit you do make me cuckle,


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## tkb

journeymanjo said:


> you have got be be kidding me your asking me size of a grounding conductor for #6 ? what kind of "hard" question is that? lets face it you cant intellegently think of any..... i got to admit you do make me cuckle,


Seems like you don't know the answer.


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## B4T

journeymanjo said:


> you have got be be kidding me your asking me size of a grounding conductor for #6 ? what kind of "hard" question is that? lets face it you cant intellegently think of any..... i got to admit you do make me cuckle,


All that and no answer to the question makes your knowledge of the "code" suspect..

I know you could care less what I or anyone else thinks of your ability with doing work in this trade.. but an answer would be nice.. :thumbsup:


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## BBQ

BBQ said:


> OK, here is a code question.
> 
> You run a 20 amp 277 volt circuit out to a site pole, the distance is long so you decide to use 6 AWG for the grounded and ungrounded conductors.
> 
> What is the minimum size equipment grounding conductor the NEC requires for this circuit?





journeymanjo said:


> you have got be be kidding me your asking me size of a grounding conductor for #6 ? what kind of "hard" question is that? lets face it you cant intellegently think of any..... i got to admit you do make me cuckle,


So answer the simple question.

Show me how simple it was. :thumbsup:


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## B4T

This might help..


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## Cletis

*Year*

Maybe he is not sure which code cycle you meant?


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## BBQ

Cletis said:


> Maybe he is not sure which code cycle you meant?


Lets say 2002, 2005, 2008 or 2011.


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## user4818

B4T said:


> All that and no answer to the question makes your knowledge of the "code" suspect..


At least we already know your knowledge of the code is suspect.


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## Cletis

*Code*

Now that he knows the code cycle the answer should be coming shortly .....tic...toc..


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## hardworkingstiff

Peter D said:


> At least we already know your knowledge of the code is suspect.


I'll admit mine is suspect, I'm just a good test taker.


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## Speedy Petey

OK, I for one am fed up with this. The last few pages have been nothing but feeding this guy's attitude.


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