# DO NOT PLOG UNIT INTO AGFI OUTLET vs 210.8(B)(5)



## Chris Kennedy (Nov 19, 2007)

Got a brand new bar and restaurant set to open this weekend. Got 4 glass chillers located behind bar. One was tripping the GFCI(s). Rep from Krowne called and said not to plug it into a GFI. I said, are you kidding me???

He sent me some interesting info. See pg 4 here.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

v










Any reason/logic why not?


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Is this considered a 210.8(b)(2)_ 'kitchen'_ area Chris?

~CS~


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

a "BAR" isn't one of the places listed in 210.8 B 1 thru 8. is it in the kitchen or within 6' of the sink ?


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Celtic said:


> v
> 
> 
> 
> Any reason/logic why not?


that digital messing with terminal #7 ?

~CS~


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

wildleg said:


> a "BAR" isn't one of the places listed in 210.8 1 thru 8. is it in the kitchen or within 6' of the sink ?


_asking,_ don't know if it's also a food prep area wl....

~CS~


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

chicken steve said:


> Is this considered a 210.8(b)(2)_ 'kitchen'_ area


I do not see where the units final location matters.

It could _be_ within 6' of a wet bar, on an outside patio, etc.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

chicken steve said:


> that digital messing with terminal #7 ?
> 
> ~CS~


I'm thinking there must be an indicator light with residual current on the ground. why else ?


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

chicken steve said:


> _asking,_ don't know if it's also a food prep area wl....
> 
> ~CS~


kitchen - permanent provisions for cooking (food prep isn't a kitchen)


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

yes and yes then

so why would a manufacturer insist on non gfi accomodations?

it's highly indicative of a bleed over....

~CS~


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

wildleg said:


> kitchen - permanent provisions for cooking (food prep isn't a kitchen)


thus gfi non applicaple, eh?

~CS~


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## Chris Kennedy (Nov 19, 2007)

Not a kitchen, a public bar, AKA, Other than dwelling unit, 210.8(B). Now look at 210.8(B)(5). This is and island bar with 4 sinks also. Hard to be anywhere in there without a sink next to you or behind you within 6'.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Chris Kennedy said:


> Not a kitchen, a public bar, AKA, Other than dwelling unit, 210.8(B). Now look at 210.8(B)(5). This is and island bar with 4 sinks also. Hard to be anywhere in there without a sink next to you or behind you within 6'.


can it be hardwired?

~CS~


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Are the units listed?


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

yes .


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## Chris Kennedy (Nov 19, 2007)

Celtic said:


> Any reason/logic why not?


The reason given to me over the phone was that moisture could accumulate in the unit. Thats some very interesting engineering IMO.


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## Sparky J (May 17, 2011)

Chris Kennedy said:


> The reason given to me over the phone was that moisture could accumulate in the unit. Thats some very interesting engineering IMO.


I hope you relayed to him Moisture, electricity and humans don't play well.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Its CYA cause the design and engineering in it is unreliable and they probably got a bunch of heat in the past because of tripping the gfi outlets or circuits they were plugged into. Where were the motors made? Let me take a wild guess.......




Gimme a C.....
Gimme an H....
Gimme an I...........................

Yesterday I put in 3 Lutron fan speed controls and the package stated not to use them on a circuit fed from an AFCI breaker. Other than the fact that the Seimens afci breaker held up fine with them on the circuit, they were noisy as hell in the middle speeds . Like HUMmmmmmmmmmmmmmm .
I gotta go searching now for the device to quiet down fan rf noise. I bet I know where they were made too...


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Never fear, Captain Obvious is here!


Chris Kennedy said:


> The reason given to me over the phone was that moisture could accumulate in the unit....


 Captain Obvious thinks that's the whole f-ing reason to have GFCI protection in the first place!

-Captain Obvious


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

Big John said:


> Never fear, Captain Obvious is here! Captain Obvious thinks that's the whole f-ing reason to have GFCI protection in the first place!
> 
> -Captain Obvious


well, I guess it would be cool if you had a uniform with a cape and a big "O" on the front of it, but then again, you might get confused with 

Captain Orgasm or Captain OLD Guy, 

or maybe even OPRAH


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

Chris Kennedy said:


> The reason given to me over the phone was that moisture could accumulate in the unit. Thats some very interesting engineering IMO.


Are you planning on returning it?


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

You just need to be like the hacks around here and properly label your gfi's.


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## GEORGE D (Apr 2, 2009)

Here we are required to treat bars as kitchens and install gfcis everywhere


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

Wow. There seem to be only two ways to make this thing work. Both of them a Code violation.

1) use a non-GFI receptacle
2) use GFI, but clip the ground pin off the plug

I would first try to convince the customer to get a different unit. And IF it came down to it, I might go with option 1 because while GFIs are great, they do fail. And you just can't beat a solid ground connection.

Nah. I'd probably install a dead-face GFI on the wall to protect the outlet. Then tell the customer to reset it if it trips. And if he doesn't like that, he can bypass it after I'm gone.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

BBQ said:


> Are the units listed?





wildleg said:


> yes .


Then I would likely try to contact the listing agency and see what they have to say about it.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Then I would likely try to contact the listing agency and see what they have to say about it.


page 1 on his link said ul. 
http://www.krowne.com/media/downloads/80/Mug%20Froster%20Manual%202012.pdf


unless they are just kidding


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

wildleg said:


> page 1 on his link said ul.
> http://www.krowne.com/media/downloads/80/Mug%20Froster%20Manual%202012.pdf


I understand, but just because it has a listing label on it does not mean the unit at the job meets the listing.


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## k_buz (Mar 12, 2012)

Since it says "Do not plug into a GFI outlet" put a GFI breaker on the circuit and then complain that it doesn't work.


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## LARMGUY (Aug 22, 2010)

wildleg said:


> well, I guess it would be cool if you had a uniform with a cape and a big "O" on the front of it, but then again, you might get confused with
> 
> Captain Orgasm or Captain OLD Guy,
> 
> or maybe even OPRAH


I vote for this guy instead.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

LARMGUY said:


> I vote for this guy instead.


That's alright, because the day you see me dressed like that, it means I need to be put out of my misery. 

-John


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

BBQ said:


> I understand, but just because it has a listing label on it does not mean the unit at the job meets the listing.


It probably only means, that contrary to what UL says, that UL has not reviewed the manufacturer's instructions. UL is on record as saying they review all supplied instructions and all such instructions are 110.3(B) instructions.
That being said, UL reviewed or not, manufacturer's instructions cannot change a code rule.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

I don't get some of these posts. All the instructions say is don't plug it into a GFI. That means you can't use it in certain areas. The unit is perfectly suited to be plugged into an area other than a kitchen. A bar is not a kitchen. If someone wants a mug icer in a kitchen, then they should use another manufacturer's equip, not this one. while I'm not defending a crappy piece of equipment, I don't see the code issue.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

wildleg said:


> I don't get some of these posts. All the instructions say is don't plug it into a GFI. That means you can't use it in certain areas. The unit is perfectly suited to be plugged into an area other than a kitchen. A bar is not a kitchen.


Again, bars have sinks, often many of them.



> 210.8 Ground-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection for
> Personnel.
> 
> (B) Other Than Dwelling Units. All 125-volt, singlephase,
> ...


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

which makes it a design issue - you don't place it within 6' of a sink. not a code issue


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

wildleg said:


> which makes it a design issue - you don't place it within 6' of a sink. not a code issue


Who said it was a 'code issue'?

Chris is trying to do his job and the equipment will not work where he is providing power to it.

It sounds to me like a UL / manufacturer issue.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

or, (if the manufacturer agrees) hardwire it so there_ is no_ receptacle....

~CS~


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

ok, again, I am not defending the crappy equip. 

But it goes without saying that some designer chick or architect spec'd out that equip and the location. it doesn't work there. it's not the equip manufacturer's fault. 

Is it their fault that they make crappy equipment that can't be used in a lot of situations ? sure. Is it their fault that someone drew their piece of sheeit into a place where it can't be used ? no


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

wildleg said:


> ok, again, I am not defending the crappy equip.
> 
> But it goes without saying that some designer chick or architect spec'd out that equip and the location. it doesn't work there. it's not the equip manufacturer's fault.
> 
> Is it their fault that they make crappy equipment that can't be used in a lot of situations ? sure. Is it their fault that someone drew their piece of sheeit into a place where it can't be used ? no


well they're certainly not doing themselves any marketing favors....

~CS~


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

chicken steve said:


> or, (if the manufacturer agrees) hardwire it so there_ is no_ receptacle....


Good luck finding a place for a disconnect switch behind a bar. 





chicken steve said:


> well they're certainly not doing themselves any marketing favors....


Exactly, even if the unit meets all standards it is a poor design for a glass washer.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

BBQ said:


> > Good luck finding a place for a disconnect switch behind a bar.
> 
> 
> heroic efforts aside, point taken....
> ...


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