# Union or Non-Union? (only constructive thoughts please)



## Joe Momma

What part of the country your in makes a big difference

Here with the union in Utah we do day schooling(collect unemployment for a week every 2 months and go to school)

The comm. cllege is over 600 for tuition, the union is 250.

The pass rate for the JW test is in the 90's for union and I believe in the 40's for non-union


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## guschash

In my area, the union apprentice program turns out very knowledgeable electricians.They are well rounded. They have continueing education for all their members. I never had the chance to go through their program and always wish I had.


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## brian john

In general, and strictly my opinion with the union you get better pay, better benefits and The big one, even if you get better pay and benefits with an open shop, should the owner die, retire or just quit you are not guaranteed that same pay and benefits elsewhere (HIGHLY UNLIKELY YOU"LL FIND A BETTER PAY AND BENNIES THAN UNION IN THE FIRST PLACE). But union pay and benefits carry with you from job to job.

Having said that in my area the best electricians are union, not from union training but more from the fact that the best electricians seek out the best pay and that is union pay and benefits. 


There are a few top notch electricians that work for a few open shops, these shops are operated by GREAT fellows that retain their trained men with the best pay and benifits.

I am managment and having a union shop cost me more money out of my pocket, but I feel the expense is worth it to have secure family men.


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## John

I have been both and there is no real difference to me. Being union is part of the job, not the job. So look for a job that you want and if being or not being union is part of the job, so be it. There are a lot of good jobs out there both union and non-union.


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## leftyguitarjoe

I prefer my merit shop employer, simply because I want to be paid more.


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## MDShunk

Hey, Lefty! Long time, no see. 

For the benefit of others, would you mind explaining the difference between a merit shop and a typical non-union or open shop?


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## Joe Momma

John said:


> I have been both and there is no real difference to me. Being union is part of the job, not the job. So look for a job that you want and if being or not being union is part of the job, so be it. There are a lot of good jobs out there both union and non-union.


I have been both as well, and though your opinion is welcomed, no one can decide if they like a union shop unless they are accepted by the union.

"being or not-being union" does not explain much, I think the OP was asking for a little more insight. Such as who will take the best care of him(while working and when he's too old to work), paywise and benefit-wise.

And Lefty, can you also explain your package?
I apologize for keeping this thread fact driven.


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## brian john

> simply because I want to be paid more


Paid more? Please explain.


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## Mike M.

Thanks for the intelligent responses and differing viewpoints everyone. They are definitely helping to make my decision easier.


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## leftyguitarjoe

brian john said:


> Paid more? Please explain.


in my area, a 1st year gets about $12-14 an hour in union. At Tri-M, between $17-$20 depending on how you test out or if you have been summer help. Tri-M will give you a raise every 6 months IF you work hard. Union in my area does a $2.50 (or something near that) once a year.


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## brian john

And what about your benefits Health & Welfare, retirement?


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## Joe Momma

Another thing;
I was talking to a non-union buddy and he told me his cordless sawz-all crapped out at work. I just laughed at him and said there goes your next paycheck.

Union guys only buy their own hand tools(most of which have lifetime warranty's)


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## Speedy Petey

Joe Momma said:


> Union guys only buy their own hand tools(most of which have lifetime warranty's)


How does this differ from non-union shops??? EVERY independent contractor I know, or have ever worked for has been the same way.
If a shop "requires" a man to buy power tools they are in the WRONG. Period!

If you want a toy cordless sawzall, go buy one. If you want any weird power tool go get whatever you want. Just don't ask me to buy it (chances are I have it already though). 
Any needed power tools will be on the truck already. If we need something special and I can justify it I'll buy it.

Around here the unions are a joke when it comes to tools. They buy and throw away perfectly good tools simply because one part breaks, or someone couldn't figure out the proper way to use it (true story). This is how a friend of mine got his 1/2-2" hydraulic KO punch. Some yahoo couldn't figure out how to use it so he said "Piece of junk" and put it in the dumpster. It stayed there for about 13 seconds. This is one quick story. I hear things like this all the time. 
The wasted money is SHAMEFUL!


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## Joe Momma

Does that also go for cordless drills?(perhaps a dumb question)


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## oldman

Joe Momma said:


> Does that also go for cordless drills?(perhaps a dumb question)


the unions out here don't require contractors to provide cordless tools..
some do...but so do some open shops...purely a personal decision..


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## joebell

I have worked in open shops from the day I was discharged from the service and have never missed a day of work due to a layoff in almost 20 years. With that being said were Mike is young IMO this is the perfect time to try to get into the union. You can not beat the benefit package they offer. The problem I find with the Union especailly in my area is they are too exclusionary. If the union is the way to be as they (the union bosses)claim Then open the doors, Let all that want to join get sworn in and pay there dues and put them to work and stop putting pressure on the open shops which are just another bunch of hard working people trying to make a living as well.

Joe


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## brian john

JOEBELL got it 100% right... with all points espically opening the doors to more than sons nephews and close friends (which is still prevelant in some area). You can not tell me all those sons and nephews are any smarter than a few none related boys trying for a better future.


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## Joe Momma

Say in a given area you have 50 non-union contractors and 50 union contractors comprising of 100% of the work. If the union only does half the work, why would they need 100% of the workforce? A better goal is to go after the well established non-union contractors thus making their steady guys part of the labor force.
If there is no more money to be made, why would you add more guys to the payroll?


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## joebell

Joe 

Around here the unions goal is 100% of the work force and 100% of the work. To obtain that goal they pressure the open shops to convert and sign a CBA. Don't get me wrong its a terrific gig if you can get in but there in lies the problem getting in.


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## MDShunk

joebell said:


> Don't get me wrong its a terrific gig if you can get in but there in lies the problem getting in.


How do you mean? I know many guys don't get into the apprenticeship the first time around, but many/most do if they try for a second or third time. Is that what you mean?


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## brian john

First union tactics are different from area to area.

I have seen the union do more to hurt themselves over the years than to help their lot with people they should be trying to recruit.

1. Calling fellow electricians SCABS and RATS DOES ABSOLUTLY NOTHING to help the already suffering image of unions.
2. Limiting membership to the aforementioned family/friends. When I tried to join the union I was told I stood a snowballs chance in hell of getting in as I was not FAMILY and knew no one that could add pull to my chances. I was told maybe I should consider being a plumber. In the meantime a union boss son get in 6 months later he drops out. GREAT for me NOT>
3. In our area at one time the union bosses were in cahoots with the big shops and made rules to keep new shops from joining, so when a GOOD UNION electrician wanted to open a UNION SHOP he could not and so went non-union.
4. Salting the act of sending a union member to apply for an advertised job at an open shop, then instead of working he would try to recruit or worse sabotage tools and work.
5. Other union trades sabotaging open shop work on a project.
6. Picketting open shops and open shop projects and yelling the above mentioned slurs.
7. Telling open shop employees that want to join that their open shop training is worthless.

The union I believe is trying to change this image for the better BUT this bad behavior will have lasting effects on many open shop workers for some time.


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## Joe Momma

joebell said:


> Joe
> 
> Around here the unions goal is 100% of the work force and 100% of the work. To obtain that goal they pressure the open shops to convert and sign a CBA. Don't get me wrong its a terrific gig if you can get in but there in lies the problem getting in.


I think you just named the underlying problem yourself(at least I know I did above)
They want the open shops to convert to union, so then they will be able to bring more guys in. (of course saturation has a major effect, which is more closely the model I was using in the other post)


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## Speedy Petey

brian john said:


> 1. Calling fellow electricians SCABS and RATS DOES ABSOLUTLY NOTHING to help the already suffering image of unions.
> 2. Limiting membership to the aforementioned family/friends. When I tried to join the union I was told I stood a snowballs chance in hell of getting in as I was not FAMILY and knew no one that could add pull to my chances. I was told maybe I should consider being a plumber. In the meantime a union boss son get in 6 months later he drops out. GREAT for me NOT>
> 3. In our area at one time the union bosses were in cahoots with the big shops and made rules to keep new shops from joining, so when a GOOD UNION electrician wanted to open a UNION SHOP he could not and so went non-union.
> 4. Salting the act of sending a union member to apply for an advertised job at an open shop, then instead of working he would try to recruit or worse sabotage tools and work.
> 5. Other union trades sabotaging open shop work on a project.
> 6. Picketting open shops and open shop projects and yelling the above mentioned slurs.
> 7. Telling open shop employees that want to join that their open shop training is worthless.



I see you've been to my area. :whistling2:


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## joebell

Marc its not as simple here in the Northeast as Brian said you have to have the right last name that is the easiest way to get in. Aprentices seem to have an easy time when the economy is good they give an apptitude test and you can begin work as soon as you begin your schooling but if things are slow your name gets put on a list and you wait. If you are licensed already it is a much tougher road to hoe. Brian you are dead on with those tactics I have seen them all utilized.


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## nmkuhn

They both definitely have thier downsides. The non union companies seem to be getting rattier every year. The last job I had, The contractor insisted we supply hand benders, cordless drill and sawzall. Since then, I've refused to supply power tools and benders and been denied work because of it.
I started in the trade in indentured servitude in the union. Everything Brian posts is true on this issue, and it gets way more political than that. That being said, at least when you drag a job or take a layoff when you're union, you don't start over with your bennies on the next job.


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## leftyguitarjoe

brian john said:


> And what about your benefits Health & Welfare, retirement?


the full package bro. I was not a full time employee, so I did not receive the package, but they take care of their employees.


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## Curt

Unions offer a good flat pay scale, insurance and pension benefits but no guarantee of steady work. When back in the hall a new job could take you anywhere in city or suburbs. You will only do one type of work. Electrical. They train well but expect a lot as there are many in the hall still waiting for work so if you don't meet there standards (quota ) you will be let go. If lucky and dependable and very experienced you could land a job with a steady future. Pay scales will vary depending on where you work. Here in Chicago union pay is around $35/hr in the city to about $27/hr in the suburbs. Nonunion pay is $25 to $30 with varying benefits. The union work is divided into catagories with little overlapping. Commercial, residential and phone/data. Chicago is a right to work town so if licensed by the city (supervising electrician) unions have to let you work in their enviornment. I am non union but licensed and hold a contractors license as well. This to me was the best of both worlds. I get equal pay, full paid health insurance, fully employer paid pension plan, and worked out a deal when hired that if we pulled in strictly electrical work I get an equal share of the profits.. I dumped this into my pension and look to retire soon! The benefits for me were great and I get to do everything besides electrical. We work from commercial (schools, offices) to luxury highrises. In 20yrs I have never been laid off and work a 40 hour week with overtime only when I want it. I worked union for 5 years previous and found the work very demanding with an attitude of us against them. The steady work from a small company was a lot easier to handle. Plus it is a more flexible environment as far as time off is concerned. You really have to decide what you expect for your time and when ready negotiate a good future.


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## Joe Momma

Curt said:


> if you don't meet there standards (quota ) you will be let go. If lucky and dependable and very experienced you could land a job with a steady future.


How is this different from non-union? If a guy is not up to par why wouldn't he be sent down the road?


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## sparkysteve

I'm not trying to start a fight. Just sharing my experience. If you're happy where you are, I'm thrilled.

I'm in the merit system and am happy. I'm paid well, have good benefits and insurance, recieve job incentive bonuses, have never been laid off in 7 years, and enjoy my work. My apprenticeship classes were paid for by my boss. I passed my J-man exam on the first shot. The union isn't very prominent in my area. Unions make up maybe 20% of contractors. A few surrounding cities have strong unions. We work there too. I know some union guys are fine to work with. But I've dealt with far more unsavory union members. I've been called a rat, scab, etc. just showing up to work every morning. Had work sabotaged, material stolen and scattered, lifts unpluged at night, gang-boxes overturned, tires slashed, conduit filled with mortar, wire cut, deliberate lack of coordination, ladders and scaffold broken, you name it. I've been told how to vote every fall. I've been called every 4-letter word in the book for having a W-'04 sticker on my truck. Apperently I'm not entitled to my on opinion. I didn't force mine on theirs. I don't want to be associated with ANY group with ANY number of members like that. 

I know this doesen't represent all union members, just many I've dealt with in my career. 

If I think I deserve a raise I'll ask my boss for one. Our company president, along with many others I know of many trades, have said, that if their employees join the union they will close up shop or sell. We are currently an ABC member. I think union numbers are on the decline for a reason. Employess don't need the protection they used too. There are plenty of good and bad on both sides of the union line. I prefer the side I'm on. To each their own though. The union does pay well and benefits continue with a transfer to a different company. I've wished I had that once.

To each their own. Just guys showing up and earning a paycheck.:thumbsup:


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## brian john

> Unions offer a good flat pay scale, insurance and pension benefits but no guarantee of steady work. When back in the hall a new job could take you anywhere in city or suburbs. You will only do one type of work. Electrical/quote]
> 
> 
> I am union and have worked steady for 37 years.
> The variety of work (IN MY AREA) is much more limited in open shops. Most testing companies are Union 9 out of 10. In the union as I came up I did controls, generators, ATS's work, fire alarm and the aforementioned electrical testing.. I think it is very difficult to discuss union VS open shop as it varies local to local.


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## Joe Momma

When back in the hall you take whatever job you wish. And steady work(as with any job) is completely dependant on how valuable of a person you are.


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## Curt

In Chicago a non union shop is not as demanding. THey give out jobs but for the most part the time you take is what it is within reason. Probably because bids are made from experience and known times rather than computed by an estimator dedicated to that trade who usually calculates on work without a visual impression of environment. A non union shop can have more slop in their estimate also simply because of wage and benefit differences. Chicago has many people in the hall waiting for work and really don't chose their jobs but are offered them based on seniority. I work along side union people all the time and hear countless stories of being bounced around and being laid off. I have been told the first ten years are the worst and then it all starts to click. The benefits for the owner of a union shop here is he can hire and lay off as his work demand changes and when rehiring he can expect at least people with equal skills due to the trade schooling. A non union shop will accept a lesser worker just because skill levels are so varied and cannot be tested until hired. All major construction jobs in Chicago are union simply because of the labor pool at their disposal. Most all residential projects are non-union due to costs. It has been said a price of a home in Chicago would cost 2 1/2 times more if built with pure union labor. Really, all has to be inspected before any occupancy permits are issued and the inspectors here do their job full time and are very well versed in code so all work will at least meet building standards. The suburbs are a different story. 

I have really enjoyed hearing how this all works in various areas and I hope this thread fills up with everyones tales.


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## Joe Momma

Good post Curt though semi-biased.
Again I'll point out that union versus non shops each build their own shops, perhaps I'll put it this way; some guys are and will always be "help" while others are employees, on both sides of the fence this is true.
Good training is crucial, but does not make an "employee". If a particular guy 'just doesn't get it' he will be used for his abilities then when his limitations are met he will be sent down the road.
Every job has a "crunch" time where the shop puts in calls to meet demand, guys that aren't "fitting in" at their current jobs take the call (of course with the pretense that they weren't being treated well), their ignorance and help is hugely appreciated. Their caliber is easily noticed, but will be sent to other jobs, either by the respect of the brotherhood, or perhaps to find their fit, or because a big OT project is coming up, or perhaps to wait till they drag, but always when the shop gets back to their normal flow the excess will be cut off and this has nothing to do with rank or seniority.
Fact is that anyone upset over a lay-off feels they are better than what they are. Regardless, lay-offs are a neccessity of any contractor with multiple large jobs, but if the guy complains of bouncing through different contractors then there is something else going on(perhaps his flapping jaw got him sent down the road(why else would he be telling his life story while on the clock Curt?). Hell, I'm still an apprentice and can hand pick the guys I want helping me after only meeting them for a few minutes, and yes I did say "helping ME". Though I would never cosider a senior hand as help, I merely try to be a guide and a liaison to the typical ways the shop likes to do things, and of course a 'fetcher' while he/they take time to 'consider'.

I've gotten way off subject now, but another thing; I thought the union also controls the housing market in Chicago, and that's whay they still pipe homes?


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## DavidHutton

*2 year non union*

Ive weighed the pros and cons with going union or staying independent. The local 80 in my area is not very strong. There is simply not a lot of union work around here. and i make wayyyy more than a 2 year union apprentice. I think it would be ok as a jw to join, but as far as money and what not for apprentices, i think im better off independent. It seems like theres a huge amount of band wagoning going on with union vs non union. I know union apprentices that are 100% pro union that act like theres no other way than union. In my "opinion" unions bankrupt the very industry there members belong to. So how does that help the workers? The IBEW in my "opinion" is the only union that really has any real basis for existing. Electricians especially lineman put there lives on the line for there jobs. We make the world possible. 
we should pull together and look out for one another. but as long as theres someone whos willing to work for cheaper...the union wont be a strong as it could be. and whats up with the whole flat rate thing? if a jw knows more than another jw he should make more than him. Thats another thing i dont agree with.


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## gilbequick

Duplicate


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## gilbequick

DavidHutton said:


> and whats up with the whole flat rate thing? if a jw knows more than another jw he should make more than him. Thats another thing i dont agree with.


If he's that much better he could be the next foreman and the other guy is still a JW, or when things get slow the better more knowledgeable guy will be around and the other will get the lay off. The crappy JW's don't tend to be employed as much because they're not really worth their pay rate comparitively. 


Also, where else are you going to start as a first year apprectice and in 4-5 years be making top pay? Not too many places.


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## calimurray

Union is a good choice if you can get accepted, you'll have great benefits and good pay with usually a pension. I know for a fact the union near my house guarantee's 5 yrs. of work for an apprentice, when you a journeyman your on your own.
Near my area the Union will allow you to work on all kinds of jobs a regular non union contractor couldn't touch, which will result in a lot of great experiences and good knowledge.

If you have a chance to go union and the work in that local is abundant I'd say go for it!


If you cant get in the union right away there is plenty of non union contractors out there that can provide you with good experiences, benefits, and good pay also. In my time as a non union electrician i have not been layed off in a long time, knock on wood! I make about 80% of journeyman wages in most locals and I am generally happy with my job.


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## calimurray

Union is a good choice if you can get accepted, you'll have great benefits and good pay with usually a pension. I know for a fact the union near my house guarantee's 5 yrs. of work for an apprentice, when you a journeyman your on your own.
Near my area the Union will allow you to work on all kinds of jobs a regular non union contractor couldn't touch, which will result in a lot of great experiences and good knowledge.

If you have a chance to go union and the work in that local is abundant I'd say go for it!


If you cant get in the union right away there is plenty of non union contractors out there that can provide you with good experiences, benefits, and good pay also. In my time as a non union electrician i have not been layed off in a long time, knock on wood! I make about 80% of journeyman wages in most locals and I am generally happy with my job.


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## Frasbee

This sounds like it would be heavily dependent upon the local union, and open shops available in an individual's area. Because it sounds like Union locals themselves can vary just as much as the open shops.


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## gilbequick

Frasbee said:


> This sounds like it would be heavily dependent upon the local union, and open shops available in an individual's area. Because it sounds like Union locals themselves can vary just as much as the open shops.


Absolutely. Weigh both of your options and decide what you think will be best for you.


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## electrician1957

If ya wanna be an electrician, go union. If someday you want to be an electrical contractor, go non union.


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## nick

*non union /union*

I have worked union & non union been to school in both and also in the military as a electrician . On benifits of a non union shop one must work for a good one ,we get free school , pay is helpers $12 start = jr start $20 = leadmen $28.. But we get better pay then union here. We put our bennys in a 401k plan the company matches our investment up to a limit dollar for dollar .we get 5 paid hoildays each year and 3 sick days , 1 week start to 3 weeks paid vacation each year . Full medical/ dental we pay this out of our checks. If your a supertindent or foremen you get a new truck to take home and free gas .Next we get a bonus pool off of each job it can be for a helper just a $ 100 dollars or up to $ 2000 dollars .Now if you run a scope of that job you can walk away with $30,000 in you bonus check. Its all about what that electrician can do big scope of job and also the size of the job . We dont touch a job unless is 20 million plus , 2 to 3 year projects mostly we have 1200 workers and this a privately owned electrical contractor shop, We only do new electrical work only if you want to go to school our company sends us yearly for specialty classes. They pay for our prescription safety glasses ,if your sick hospitalized up to 6 months they give you 60 % of your paycheck for that time off work , what non union or union contractor does that ? we are the 23 largest electrical contractor in the usa if ya need the name look it up ecm magazine .Not putting down union ive been there local 606 orlando but there is more money non union ! no union contractor can come close to what we get in bennys do ya understand that . best to ya


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## Speedy Petey

Nick, that is all great....IF that type of thing is for you. 

I could NEVER (have) work(ed) for a company like that. Now way I could work for such a large outfit. I don't do politics very well and have a real problem keeping my mouth shut. I also never had a thing for knee pads, if you know what I mean. :whistling2:
I am not slamming your company or the union, but I KNOW this stuff goes on every day in MANY shops, and it is way more prevalent in large(er) companies.

If that type of life and lifestyle is for you then more power to you. I wish you all great success. Just remember, it is NOT for everybody.

How do you keep 1200 guys busy doing (only) new work in today's economy??? Travel, that's how. How far do your guys commute each day?
I have to say, your company is like a mini-union in itself.


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## nick

*thinking green its going to happen*

Well i for one dont use knee pads speedy , i just do electrical work and pretty good at what i do so they pay us well , i dont work in the office thats were the knee pads are needed , i work out in the distribution scope of our projects , i like running a crew and the free truck and gas travel they pay me to go anywhere and give me a place to live so no problem i go , we work mostly florida but sometimes out of the country special projects but the moneys good ,and iam used to traveling ex military electrician but if our usa new green work goes bigg time ill quit in a heart beat and go on any government project they come up with , but iam happy now but it doesnt take much we kinda go were the money is paying the most , how do we keep 1200 working have major shops in four different parts of the state most guys dont travel more than 40 miles if that .do good work on time in budget never say no . we do most jobs no one can do in our state so that helps best to ya :thumbsup:


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## Runway

I carried a Union ticket for 18 years and have worked Open Shop for the last 16 years. Both have their pros and cons - I prefer the Open Shop where your compensation is tied to your contribution, not based on some common denominator. After working my way up through the field and into management, I can tell you that knee pads don't have a d... thing to do with it. That is talk from guys who have never done the necessary work required in the office. A lot of guys think that the office cats just sit around all day reading the sports section and drinking coffee. I can promise you that everything that happens there is necessary and not always easy. Sure, on a rainy or cold day, the office is the better place to be, but I paid a heckuva price (going to school at night, learning computer programs, showing up early in the morning, staying late at night, working on weekends... the list goes on.) The reality for me is I have a great job with a solid company that pays me very well for my efforts. My family has been taken good care of and we will be able to retire well in spite of the Democrats. In our area, 95% of the work is Open Shop. That will tell you a lot about the ability of our economy to still be strong in spite of what is happening around the country. 
Whatever side of the labor fence you are on, there is good to be had and bad to be tolerated - but what happens to anyone happens to all of us. We eacgh are responsible for how we react to our circumstances. I firmly believe that the trade is still a good chioce for a young person to get in to.


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## randomkiller

nick said:


> Well do what ya need to do its your pick , i know no one will believe me but here she goes ,ive been union & non union been to school in both and also in the military as a electrician . The non union abc school is not as complete as the union school sorry , but before one can speak on benifits of a non union shop one must work for a good one ,we get free school , pay helpers $12 start jr start $20 leadmen $28 and up its all what you know this is in florida now pay is lower down south !! But we get better pay then union here thats a fact . But heres were we start to change we put our bennys in 401 k plan the company matches our investment up to a limit dollar for dollar .we get 5 paid hoildays a year 3 sick days , 1 to 3 weeks paid vacation each year , full medical/ dental we pay out of check, if your a supertendent you get a truck to take home free gas .next bonus off each job can be for a helper 100 dollars or 2000 dollars ,now if you run a scope of that job you can walk away with $30,000 in you bonus check .its all about what one takes on scope of job and also the size of the job . we dont touch a job unless is 20mil plus , 2 /3 year projects, weve got 1200 workers and this a privately owned electrical contractor shop we just due new electrical work only . if you want to go to school our company sends us yearly for specialty stuff . they will repair or replace any broken batt tool if you have a bad battery its replaced . broken tool replaced free . we have the safest company they gives us free gloves free glasses everyday , they pay for our prescription safety glasses ,if your sick hospital stay up to 6 months they give you 60 % pay what non union contractor does that? were 23 largest electrical contractor in the usa if ya need the name look it up ecm magazine .not putting down union ive been there local 606 orlando but thers more money where iam at and i like it .best to ya


 
Not to just bust balls but if you proof read what you post first it would be easier for the rest of us to follow and it would make you sound that much more on the ball.


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## randomkiller

I have no experience in working non Union. I worked in a (Union) family business before going into the Marines at 17 yrs old. I was asked to get into the hall by a guy that I served with. A handful of us came in together. I have had all very positive experiences being Union. I have met some "old time" Union thugs and just let them shoot their bs and paid little attention. I have never been laid off without planning a vacation around it and coming back to a different EC. And that has been several years ago the last time. 
I have always worked in larger shops and commuted at least 10 hours a week. One thing that seems to be prevelent in reading posts here is that Union shops only pay scale. I have never worked for a company that was like that for guys that were steady with them. I know they didn't do extra for guys on a short call but they all did for the regulars. All the guys I work with now are doing better than scale by at least $1.00/hr. We get 5 sick/personal days, many of us get trucks/vans, we get vacation based on time in, and many smaller benefits that make it a great place to work. My supervisor called me at 1030 this am to tell me it was getting bad out and to head home (paid). That ended up with shooting by his house and having lunch with him and his wife. When thinking Union, keep in mind the pay rate is the least you will get, not the max.


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## nick

Well i know i should proof read RDK !! sorry guys thats why ill never make it to the office level iam just good at one thing and its not paper work , but i must add one thing i have never had a problem on any job both union or non union we usually all work fine together on any project there is a mix down here in the south union is not strong. But i respect there work they respect our work we share tools and help each other out. I have never seen any problems we even go on fridays to hooters or some near by beer house for a few brews thats union and non union . best to yas


----------



## TheRick

randomkiller said:


> Not to just bust balls but if you proof read what you post first it would be easier for the rest of us to follow and it would make you sound that much more on the ball.


 
:blink: Whew...I thought it might be just me that couldn't understand that!


----------



## TheRick

I think the biggest thing for ALL of us to remember is that our opinions are based on our own experiences, and none of us can say what is better for someone else. Some of us have had better experiences working union, some non-union. It is very dependant on where you are and what kind of work is available. 

There are way to many variables between union and non-union, not to mention from local to local in the union, and between different open shop employers for any of us to make blanket statements one way or another. The best thing to do is talk to people in your area...both union and non-union, and find out what the pros and cons of each are, and then make an informed decision that is best for YOU.


----------



## JDG

I have been going through the union/non-union thing in my mind for quite some time as well. You see I recently obtained my NJ EC License and happen to know a BA from the local near me, he has told me he would probably be able to get me in without going through the apprenticeship program due to the fact that I have my NJ Lic. But I happen to have many friends in the local who are J-man and only work half a year or so every year. I know as others stated this varies greatly by area but around here (Central NJ) it seems that around half of all the members of each local are laid off at any given time in recent years. I am in my early 30's, already own a house and plan on starting a family soon........knowing this kind of stuff is happening to the locals around here kind of steers me away from wanting to join, I won't even get into the politics I think I may face from other union members that find out I walked in as a J-man, I don't know how that would go but I am sure some would be sore......all in all I still battle with making the call......


----------



## Golden Arc

In this part of the country the Union is considered the Devil.


----------



## gilbequick

Tim where abouts are you located?


----------



## william1978

Tim Crimson said:


> In this part of the country the Union is considered the Devil.


 
Why is it the Devil?


----------



## Golden Arc

I live in upper East Tennessee I dont think there really is any Union around here not that ive ever heard of. If the Union is ever mentioned which is rarely its always in bad manner.


----------



## Timster

nick said:


> Well i know i should proof read RDK !! sorry guys thats why ill never make it to the office level iam just good at one thing and its not paper work , but i must add one thing i have never had a problem on any job both union or non union we usually all work fine together on any project there is a mix down here in the south union is not strong. But i respect there work they respect our work we share tools and help each other out. I have never seen any problems we even go on fridays to hooters or some near by beer house for a few brews thats union and non union . best to yas


RDK's English is just as bad as yours, so don't worry (seriously). 

You both write okay, but this is just the internet; anywhere else and you dudes would be quite suspect. 

RDK has no business teaching grammar on this forum, as evidenced by his postings; however, he is really smart in other stuff, and I have learned from him, as I lurk... 

No I am not kissing your ass RKD, just telling it like I see it. 

Both of you just need to learn about spacing out the paragraphs; then you both should be fine (note how much easier my post is to read with spacings, for example)...

But then, correcting one's writings on the internet is a slippery slope indeed. I have probably made half a dozen mistakes chastising you guys. :laughing:


----------



## randomkiller

Timster said:


> RDK's English is just as bad as yours, so don't worry (seriously).
> 
> You both write okay, but this is just the internet; anywhere else and you dudes would be quite suspect.
> 
> RDK has no business teaching grammar on this forum, as evidenced by his postings; however, he is really smart in other stuff, and I have learned from him, as I lurk...
> 
> No I am not kissing your ass RKD, just telling it like I see it.
> 
> Both of you just need to learn about spacing out the paragraphs; then you both should be fine (note how much easier my post is to read with spacings, for example)...
> 
> But then, correcting one's writings on the internet is a slippery slope indeed. I have probably made half a dozen mistakes chastising you guys. :laughing:


 


YA THINK !


I just have a thing about cohesive coherent sentences.


----------



## bobelectric

Tim Crimson said:


> I live in upper East Tennessee I dont think there really is any Union around here not that ive ever heard of. If the Union is ever mentioned which is rarely its always in bad manner.


Merry Christmas.


That's what is wrong with the coal mining industry in Kentucky/Tennesee area,"If you Don't like the working conditions,go home."


----------



## ACB

I have never been part of a union, and I am happy with what I have, I have considered and still toss it around applying at OPG (ontario power generation) as the Bruce NuKe facility is suposidley getting a couple new nukes (its going through the political hoops right now) And I would love to move to that part of the province. The pay and benifits are awsome and of course its union, but it might be a nice way to finish out the last 13 to 15 years before I want to retire, get a partial pension along with what I have put away. but who knows. I like being my own boss, and I am well established as a business.


----------



## nick

*nuke plants future work think nuke*

Well down here in florida two new nukes are going on now in turkey lake florida . I think there is plans for more . But ive already got my foot in that door just waiting to go, iam young and just like the plant work its much more interesting than commercial or industrial work . The Electrical trade ill miss the crew i miss the fun but its that steady dollar that is what my kids need now . In the future there will be power & electricity we have to have it . I just dont think wind turbines or solar power is enough for the big old usa. I think its ok for some states but id liked to see a wind turbine come august when our next bigg huricane blows thur its not going to happen in florida . not alone were the most hit by lighting . best to ya think nuke .


----------



## linehammer76

*union vs. non union*

I started as a sparky in a small non union company, just me and the boss. He taught me a lot in a short time and I bought the Mike Holt videos and read the codebook. I learned more in the first year than I would have learned in 5 years working union just because most union journeymen don't want to teach you anything.

I wound up on the railroad as a communications lineman/signalman, had to take a big electrical theory test and they sent me to more school. Was there for a year until budget cuts and poor economy led to me being laid off on my last day of a year's probation. I never did anything wrong, except I was hurt on the job 4 months in and put in a claim, sat home for 2 weeks while I healed up. Their excuse on my last day was that I was a safety hazard. It was a preventable accident, nothing would have happened had I stayed home! Anyway, the union couldn't represent me because I was still on probation. Meanwhile I was paying dues for the whole year up to that point. What good did the union do for me? They did nothing.

I am now working non-union again. Non union, I worked harder than I did union, and found out that I worked around a better quality of people, both personal and professionally. On the RR there were a lot of prima donnas who thought they knew everything and always thought they were better than you, because they never worked anywhere else and don't know what it's like to make a living in the real world. On the RR we worked 3 hours a day and got paid for 8. Yea, it's a good gig, but I hated being around those people.

Non union shops got their idiots to work with too, but if you had to settle something the old fashioned way there are no rules are regulations. The pay was better for me non-union because my old boss paid me good, up to 19/hr half on the books half cash my first year, 2 dollar raises per hour every 6 months, 2-4 hours OT every day. Nice checks every friday with a lil bundle of cash. RR payed me the same every week 21/hour on books no OT at all. Only good thing about RR was the retirement/pension and annuity, which is under close scrutiny these days. Things are changing drastically all around in that union some bad times ahead...kind of a bad time to consider being in construction trade...but we are who we are...

I have been on both sides and being in the union is like playing one big game. Yea everywhere you go there's bull**** but it's really bad in the union. I like working in a non union shop with about 4-8 guys, 3-5 trucks max, a boss who isn't afraid to get his hands dirty with ya and show you a new thing every now n then, and knowing that the work you do is top notch quality goin in gettin dirty comin home knowin you did an honest day's work. 

Union guys are spoiled IMO, and the work they do can be criticized. I've been on residential jobs after a union guy was in there-one example was bringing all the home runs into a 200I murray panel by using the big 2" knockout in back upper left, ran em through a 2"locknut n bushing(guess he didn't want to take the time bringing them in individually)...brought the #2 SEU in the same way on the back upper right...that may be how some unions guys do their work but that's a violation in my book. 

Now, not all union guys are shytbirds. Yes, I got great training on the RR and learned a lot. There's plenty of scumbags non union too. It's just that in my experience union workers, no matter what the trade, tend to be lazier, not as efficient, and overpaid. Also, you need not go through an apprenticeship program to become a top notch electrician. If you can play the game and you know somebody, and kiss ass real well, go union. If you think you can hang in the "real world" and you trust your skills and want to get paid for them, go non union.


----------



## patriot1

I live in Texas and the union is not as strong as the eastern or western states. I have known several people that enjoyed the Union but have regreted being out of work. Pay is better but for some folks 6 months a year is not a benefit. Both Union and Non have their points. You maybe out of work but still have to pay dues and you may have to sit on the books a while waiting for a job. If your single and young, Union maybe a benefit because of the traveling. Non union companies may or may not have great benefits, depends on where you look. I graduated from a Trade school and walked out with many job oppertunities from open shops with great pay. A benefit to you would do homes for about a year, after that they get boring, then go to industrial to perfect your conduit skills and knowledge, then go to commercial and expand your blueprint and thinking skills. If you skip industrial that is ok but always play it safe in no matter what field you get into. Most union shops do not allow any outside work whether for family, friends or yourself. I went to trade school for 1 year, graduated Deans List, in 6 months I was incharge of my on small lease space with supervision of course, I don't think an appentice in the Union would be able to have the oppertunity to do that. What ever you decide both union or Non, you can always opt out and go to the other. Both have great supervisory skills, the more you want to learn, the better the electrican you will become.


----------



## confident

kind of weird, but I have never heard of a man going from a uniun shop to a non-union shop
its always the non-union man asking


----------



## confident

i guess i should have read the entire post


----------



## jwelectric

confident said:


> kind of weird, but I have never heard of a man going from a uniun shop to a non-union shop
> its always the non-union man asking


Well be enlightened and not blinded by those around you.

Unions in the employment population across America today only represent around 7%. This is down from 9% only two years ago.

The unions are losing grips on America and are using all your dues trying to boost enrolment but it isn’t working out to good for them these days.


----------



## 3rdgeneration

confident said:


> kind of weird, but I have never heard of a man going from a uniun shop to a non-union shop
> its always the non-union man asking


Alot of non union shops will not hire anyone who has had a past history with the IBEW. By hiring someone currently with the IBEW or who has a past with the IBEW, you are risking hiring a potential salt who will do nothing but create problems within the company in the hopes of unionizing them.


----------



## Mr. Wizard

The union here in Texas isn't very strong. Our local has no retirement, vacation, holidays, and the insurance is horrible. And they do the most reprehensable thing you could imagine - they encourage apprentices to cheat on their Journeyman tests. They promote this guy that comes around every now and again that sells the answers to the Texas exam for $500. They have his cards sitting out at the counter, and the BA passes them out everywhere. I know the union is great elsewhere, I've traveled up north a few years back and was really amazed at the professionalism and care for the employees the northen union shops showed. But down here, sad to say but the union apprenticeship program is turning out morons. Two of the instructors paid to get the answers to the test, and they don't teach. They issue reading assignments and homework, but no real instruction. Maybe if you don't know it, how can you teach it? I was with the union for many years, but now I am open shop due to the way a lot of good hands got treated. I had nothing at our local, but with open shop, I got a van I take home, cell phone, gas card, paid holidays, vacation, retirement, tool account, the list goes on (but not much more). Not to mention I make quite a bit more now, and don't have to negotiate for a pay raise - my work speaks for itself. If you're up north, or in a strong union state, I say go for it. It will probably be one of the best decisions you could make. Good luck!


----------



## robnj772

confident said:


> kind of weird, but I have never heard of a man going from a uniun shop to a non-union shop
> its always the non-union man asking


Thats a bunch of BS.I left a union shop and went non union and never looked back.Buddy of mine that got tired of giving up his hard earned pay to union dues left to work with us after I did.
I was making more money non union AND I wasn't paying dues to some suit with a BMW.
Now I run my own shop and I feel had I not left the union when I did I wouldn't be were I am today.

Now why isn't this stupid thread locked and shoved in the union topix area????


----------



## Speedy Petey

robnj772 said:


> Now why isn't this stupid thread locked and shoved in the union topix area????


Because:

A) Up until now it has been a pretty civil thread.

B) It lays dormant and every couple of months someone decides to post and bring it TTT. Then it goes back to sleep for a while.

C) This thread was started long before the Union topic forum was even created. I guess none of us saw the need to move it.
This thread started: 9-4-07
Union forum created: 3-28-08


----------



## oprtun1

I'm a non-union EC. I was thinking about going union... This thread has been very informative.


----------



## retired 7373

Hello,
Not preaching union or non union. Some people speak of making higher wages being non union. Hopefully these people have not fooled themselves about the reason why they are making more.
If we woke up Monday morning and there was no IBEW everyones wages and benefits would be cut drastically.


----------



## brian john

retired 7373 said:


> Hello,
> Not preaching union or non union. Some people speak of making higher wages being non union. Hopefully these people have not fooled themselves about the reason why they are making more.
> If we woke up Monday morning and there was no IBEW everyones wages and benefits would be cut drastically.


 
And you wasted bandwidth with this post WHY?


----------



## John

retired 7373 said:


> If we woke up Monday morning and there was no IBEW everyones wages and benefits would be cut drastically.



Maybe less chest thumping and redderick, but lower wages and benefits I don't think so. :no:


----------



## robnj772

John said:


> Maybe less chest thumping and redderick, but lower wages and benefits I don't think so. :no:


Yea and if there were no union the auto makers would be able to afford to operate without needing a bail out


----------



## Dude Man

This is a very interesting thread.

I have been union start to finish now for 7 years. I am currently laid off due to the economic situation. But there is a ton of electricians union or non union that are laid off. In the company I work for, when your job comes to an end and there is no work you have to sit, and this is my first time sitting.

I work where the money is, and IMO that is union. Unless you are a Contractor. My friends and old roommates were/are non-union. They say all the time they are treated well, but never say what they are paid. But they do get a hard on when ever they get a state job: Prevailing Wage. That tells me they are way underpaid. They need to buy all there own tools, which I think in a way is a good thing by the way, otherwise people just don't care. However they all consider five finger discounts as buy there own tools.
P.S. IMO, If you are the guy screwing someone over, odds are you are going to treat them well, or at least make them think that. The person getting screwed always says, well me Boss treast me well. You kidding me? ahahah

The shop that I work at, I would say half have company have vehicles and gas. The rest of us drive our personals to the job. Sometimes they pay our gas too. For me, the furthest I have had to drive is like 20 min. If we have to go real far we get drive time too. Also there are plenty of guys who get more than the flat scale. I have also never met a non union in my area that makes more than I do, in fact there foreman even make less. If we get more than 5 guys on a job you get a raise for that duration, being the foreman that is.

All the non-union shops around here are now making everyone take pay cuts or freeze wages, taking a way drive time and health insurance. What to you think will happen when things get better? Go back to where you were? I doubt it. 

Everyone I talked to about 401ks has had it tank. Including mine, since we have both in my local. Thank God for my pension. Most of them use there statements a toilet paper. Now they have to work even longer to retire. That really sucks for those people. I think that many people don't consider there future when younger. When you are 50 and someone is 22. Who is going to be able to work harder and faster? Who is going to loose there job?

Sorry for venting, the biggest thing that gets me is the largest non union contractor around here doesn't play by the rules. If they get a big job they load it up with kids, called helpers. They will have 10 of them and one Journeyman. Who is getting screwed here? My boss can not get the work and the helper is getting taken advantage of.

These are just some of my view points, obviously biased. Sorry if I offended anyone, just my thoughts. 
Good luck to everyone out there in these times, no matter who you work for.


----------



## rlc3854

robnj772 said:


> Yea and if there were no union the auto makers would be able to afford to operate without needing a bail out


Yea or the banks, mortgage companies and credit card companies  They would just move south where the labor force is just dying to help put them back on their feet. I thought the thread stated "constructive throughts please". There is good and bad in everything. Keeping the trades alive is something all of us here on this board should work toward together. Brian and John always post productive views on this subject even though one is union the other non-union. I would love to work with them both as I know my knowledge and experience would become ten fold. Lets keep together and help those wanting to join our trade and the various avenues to get there.


----------



## ElectricBrian

*Reality*

Gentlemen
Here is the real Deal.
Union or Non-union. Point one - the union because it is a recognized group that is easily seen and has some kind of standard, IE wages, bennies, hours conditions. The union has regardless to market share sets the standard. It is what we all are measured against.

If we all truly wanted to control our life and our future we all everyone of us join the union. We then could have control over our work environment.

In America is it Wrong to band together to improve all our lives? Some Yahoo will want to be a big bad rebel and cut their own throat and dive on wages/ conditions to try to get ahead (dose anyone else not see the logic in this?)

The Union does give some freedom in making it simple to work in many other places across the country and have an good idea of how the job and other conditions will be before you get there.

The union also has a problem when market conditions change rapidly. Because of the Collective bargaining agreement all work is at a set minimum wage/package. The non-union employers can change the wages they want to pay at any time, then the workers only have the option to accept this or quit. Yes I know that that may have some ramifications but we all have watched non-union shops take a bad job and push the cost off on the workers.

The Union is still recognized for the training they can provide. The reality here is the IBEW and its NJATC have a proven method and is still unsurpassed in its quality and effectiveness. The non-union is improving in training by using the model of the IBEW and at times even stealing some of the curriculum. All the NJATC materials are copyrighted, and there have been lawsuits of the miss-use of curriculum. 

The reality is that only knowledge is built in the class room, you then have to take that knowledge on the job and with the help of proven journeymen the apprentice then can develop real world skills.

The choice is for each individual to make but if we all belonged to the Union we would have control of our industry and security. That is also not to say even then we would have to be very studious stewards of the industry, we all have customers that we in the end are responsible to.

The bottom line is electricians are a lot like doctors we need very specialized training and the knowledge and skills we have are very high. We usually have a much better understanding of the aspects of our work than the layman. So we all have a professional responsibility to our customers. Unlike most doctors if an electrician dose their job poorly we could kill many people with one mistake.

As for as unemployment I have over thirty years in the electrical industry and I have always had work with the Union. I have salted with the non-union and help convert several contractors, we did not pressure the contractors we showed them better skills and production than the workers they had, and more man power, then they made the choice. 

The Union also provides the Brotherhood that at times the benefits of far and away can be relied upon to help me and my family, not to mention just the brotherhood, the knowledge that I belong to something good, strong and beneficial. My union is a good citizen in my community, we are often called upon to help and contribute, and we do so proudly.

Just an FYI Union Membership all across the board has been rising over the last two to three years. The IBEW is curently at its highest Construction membership ever in its history!


----------



## retired 7373

robnj772 said:


> Yea and if there were no union the auto makers would be able to afford to operate without needing a bail out


 
If you seriously think the problems with the automakers was the union you have a serious reality problem. To say any one side was the problem shows that you have no idea what the problems are and all you are trying to do is bash the unions. I wonderwhat your wages and benefits are


----------



## MDShunk

ElectricBrian said:


> The IBEW is curently at its highest Construction membership ever in its history!


Yet continues to decline, year after year, in percentage share of the total electrical labor efforts. IBEW membership has increased in the EXACT same proportions as the total jobs available in the electrical sector have increased. Nothing surprising about that.


----------



## zen

my boss comes from union training and ive seen guys leave and go union.when they come back they seem to be more well rounded electricians..


----------



## retired 7373

linehammer76 said:


> I started as a sparky in a small non union company, just me and the boss. He taught me a lot in a short time and I bought the Mike Holt videos and read the codebook. I learned more in the first year than I would have learned in 5 years working union just because most union journeymen don't want to teach you anything.
> 
> I wound up on the railroad as a communications lineman/signalman, had to take a big electrical theory test and they sent me to more school. Was there for a year until budget cuts and poor economy led to me being laid off on my last day of a year's probation. I never did anything wrong, except I was hurt on the job 4 months in and put in a claim, sat home for 2 weeks while I healed up. Their excuse on my last day was that I was a safety hazard. It was a preventable accident, nothing would have happened had I stayed home! Anyway, the union couldn't represent me because I was still on probation. Meanwhile I was paying dues for the whole year up to that point. What good did the union do for me? They did nothing.
> 
> I am now working non-union again. Non union, I worked harder than I did union, and found out that I worked around a better quality of people, both personal and professionally. On the RR there were a lot of prima donnas who thought they knew everything and always thought they were better than you, because they never worked anywhere else and don't know what it's like to make a living in the real world. On the RR we worked 3 hours a day and got paid for 8. Yea, it's a good gig, but I hated being around those people.
> 
> Non union shops got their idiots to work with too, but if you had to settle something the old fashioned way there are no rules are regulations. The pay was better for me non-union because my old boss paid me good, up to 19/hr half on the books half cash my first year, 2 dollar raises per hour every 6 months, 2-4 hours OT every day. Nice checks every friday with a lil bundle of cash. RR payed me the same every week 21/hour on books no OT at all. Only good thing about RR was the retirement/pension and annuity, which is under close scrutiny these days. Things are changing drastically all around in that union some bad times ahead...kind of a bad time to consider being in construction trade...but we are who we are...
> 
> I have been on both sides and being in the union is like playing one big game. Yea everywhere you go there's bull**** but it's really bad in the union. I like working in a non union shop with about 4-8 guys, 3-5 trucks max, a boss who isn't afraid to get his hands dirty with ya and show you a new thing every now n then, and knowing that the work you do is top notch quality goin in gettin dirty comin home knowin you did an honest day's work.
> 
> Union guys are spoiled IMO, and the work they do can be criticized. I've been on residential jobs after a union guy was in there-one example was bringing all the home runs into a 200I murray panel by using the big 2" knockout in back upper left, ran em through a 2"locknut n bushing(guess he didn't want to take the time bringing them in individually)...brought the #2 SEU in the same way on the back upper right...that may be how some unions guys do their work but that's a violation in my book.
> 
> Now, not all union guys are shytbirds. Yes, I got great training on the RR and learned a lot. There's plenty of scumbags non union too. It's just that in my experience union workers, no matter what the trade, tend to be lazier, not as efficient, and overpaid. Also, you need not go through an apprenticeship program to become a top notch electrician. If you can play the game and you know somebody, and kiss ass real well, go union. If you think you can hang in the "real world" and you trust your skills and want to get paid for them, go non union.[/quote
> 
> So after 1 year or less of working for the railroad and going to school most of that time you know all about the union. lol-lol-lol- You were most likely laid off because 1- you were oneof the last people hired and 2- you might have actually been considered a safety hazard.
> You have very little life experience and a lot to learn.
> That railroad job was the best job you will ever have and when you retired you would have it made. As far as your best buddy the contractor paying you cash- he is actually screwing you over, not paying benefits and cheating you out of social security benefits. In case you dont know this is against the law. I feel sorry for people like you, you reming me of the non union people on the same job not making any health benefits and making less an hour and writing on the **** house walls about not having t opay for a job. You have obviously been brain washed and you actually think you are better off. While your family suffers you beat on your chest about what a great job you have. Please stay non union and do us a favor.
> 
> lol-lol-lol-


----------



## ElectricBrian

*Correct*



MDShunk said:


> Yet continues to decline, year after year, in percentage share of the total electrical labor efforts. IBEW membership has increased in the EXACT same proportions as the total jobs available in the electrical sector have increased. Nothing surprising about that.



Trends have to start somewhere


----------



## RePhase277

Dammit! Why is this thread even here?


----------



## Bob Badger

ElectricBrian said:


> Gentlemen
> Here is the real Deal.


Oh, then it's settled Brian has told us the real deal. :laughing:

You post sounds like typical brainwashed BS.


----------



## retired 7373

InPhase277 said:


> Dammit! Why is this thread even here?


 
Where do you think this thread shoul be.


----------



## Bob Badger

retired 7373 said:


> Where do you think this thread shoul be.


Seems to me a union topic would be in the union topic forum.

But hey what do I know? :whistling2:


----------



## 480sparky

retired 7373 said:


> Where do you think this thread shoul be.


----------



## Bob Badger

LMAO :laughing:


----------



## MDShunk

ElectricBrian said:


> Trends have to start somewhere


Yes. This trend is what some might call a death spiral.


----------



## retired 7373

Bob Badger said:


> Seems to me a union topic would be in the union topic forum.
> 
> But hey what do I know? :whistling2:


Bob this is the union topics forum exactly where do you think it is.


----------



## retired 7373

480sparky said:


>


Maybe you should sick to the other forms if you cant handle someone sho does not have the same opinion as you do


----------



## retired 7373

MDShunk said:


> Yes. This trend is what some might call a death spiral.


It is only a death spiral because you dont agree with what is being said. Use your great diplomatic powers and lock it out if you think it is so terrible.


----------



## Bob Badger

retired 7373 said:


> Bob this is the union topics forum


Really?

Then the top of the page must be wrong where it says this is the General Electrical Discussion foum. 


From the top of the page.



> Electrician Talk - Professional Electrical Contractors Forum > Electrical Forum > General Electrical Discussion


If this was in the union topics section the top of the page would say this.



> Electrician Talk - Professional Electrical Contractors Forum > Community > Union Topics


----------



## MDShunk

retired 7373 said:


> It is only a death spiral because you dont agree with what is being said. Use your great diplomatic powers and lock it out if you think it is so terrible.


Actually, The IBEW president posted graphs about 30 minutes into his "state of our union" address this year that showed that pretty clearly. They called it a "downward trend", and the graphs showed that it's been happening for decades. Sure, "death spiral" was my terminology.


----------



## robnj772

zen said:


> my boss comes from union training and ive seen guys leave and go union.when they come back they seem to be more well rounded electricians..


But yet they come back?????????

I thought this bs thread got moved WTF???


----------



## 480sparky

retired 7373 said:


> Maybe you should sick to the other forms if you cant handle someone sho does not have the same opinion as you do


I can handle those who do not share my opinions. What I cannot handle is those who are self-dilusional and brainwashed.


----------



## MDShunk

Moved thread. Just now clicked what you guys were trying to say. I didn't realize that this was in the general discussion area.


----------



## drsparky

The title of the post is _Union or Non-Union? (only constructive thoughts please)_ If the word "Union" puts it in the Union Forum then the words "Non-Union" would put it in another. Bottom line is you don’t like this thread, don’t read it. It is just like TV, if the show sucks, change the channel.


----------



## Bob Badger

drsparky said:


> Bottom line is you don’t like this thread, don’t read it. It is just like TV, if the show sucks, change the channel.


:thumbsup:


----------



## MDShunk

drsparky said:


> Bottom line is you don’t like this thread, don’t read it. It is just like TV, if the show sucks, change the channel.


That pretty much sums up my thoughts too. I just thought I owed it to the readers to put this show on Spike TV, when it was mistakenly on Lifetime. You channel surf with a particular type of programming in mind.


----------



## retired 7373

Bob Badger said:


> Really?
> 
> Then the top of the page must be wrong where it says this is the General Electrical Discussion foum.
> 
> 
> From the top of the page.
> 
> 
> 
> If this was in the union topics section the top of the page would say this.


 
I dont know what you are reading, but union topics is on my page and is also listed on the main union topics page, maybe somehow its listed on both pages, since I dont visit the general electrical discussion page I have no idea what is listed there. ????


----------



## 480sparky

retired 7373 said:


> I dont know what you are reading, but union topics is on my page and is also listed on the main union topics page, maybe somehow its listed on both pages, since I dont visit the general electrical discussion page I have no idea what is listed there. ????


 


*Originally, it was posted in the* 


Electrician Talk - Professional Electrical Contractors Forum > Electrical Forum 
 *General Electrical Discussion*
*forum.*


*It has been now been moved to the* 

Electrician Talk - Professional Electrical Contractors Forum > Community
 *Union Topics *

*forum.*




*The TITLE of the THREAD is*

*Union or Non-Union? (only constructive thoughts please) *


----------



## Minuteman

drsparky said:


> The title of the post is _Union or Non-Union? (only constructive thoughts please)_ If the word "Union" puts it in the Union Forum then the words "Non-Union" would put it in another. Bottom line is you don’t like this thread, don’t read it. It is just like TV, if the show sucks, change the channel.


And I will add, that unless you check dues receipts, there is know way of knowing who is Union and who is not. Been said before, but this is an open site to ELECTRICIANS (i.e. all of us!)

The OP wanted advice about wither to go Union or not. There is a good mix of both opinions presented to him for him to make a semi informed decision.


----------



## Timster

Once a man is in the union, it is extremely difficult, emotionally and mentally, to leave.

Once union, one really has to be an alpha male, or close to it, to leave and go non union. Looking back, I cannot believe I had the strength and willpower to do it, as I was quite happy being union. 

Hindsight being 20/20 I just never felt like a man in the union (my personal view).

Union guys soon become pups sucking on momma's teats after a few years, psychologically... No disrespect intended, and I was a union guy for 9 years and I love all of you.

Of course, each person's personal circumstances dictate whether they can choose a certain path.


----------



## brian john

Timster said:


> Once a man is in the union, it is extremely difficult, emotionally and mentally, to leave.
> 
> Once union, one really has to be an alpha male, or close to it, to leave and go non union. Looking back, I cannot believe I had the strength and willpower to do it, as I was quite happy being union.
> 
> Hindsight being 20/20 I just never felt like a man in the union (my personal view).
> 
> Union guys soon become pups sucking on momma's teats after a few years, psychologically... No disrespect intended, and I was a union guy for 9 years and I love all of you.
> 
> Of course, each person's personal circumstances dictate whether they can choose a certain path.


 
I never noticed any difference working either side of the fence. As for leaving I have seen some real dolts (nutless wonders) walk away, more than once.


----------



## westernexplorer

Timster said:


> Once a man is in the union, it is extremely difficult, emotionally and mentally, to leave.
> 
> Once union, one really has to be an alpha male, or close to it, to leave and go non union. Looking back, I cannot believe I had the strength and willpower to do it, as I was quite happy being union.
> 
> Hindsight being 20/20 I just never felt like a man in the union (my personal view).
> 
> Union guys soon become pups sucking on momma's teats after a few years, psychologically... No disrespect intended, and I was a union guy for 9 years and I love all of you.
> 
> Of course, each person's personal circumstances dictate whether they can choose a certain path.


 
Not sure where you got your information and facts to support this conclusion. The reason many people I know left the union was because they were not ALPHA males as you put it. They traded in my view, higher wages and pensions in exchange for lower wages and a false job security.......Just my view.....


----------



## brian john

westernexplorer said:


> Not sure where you got your information and facts to support this conclusion. The reason many people I know left the union was because they were not ALPHA males as you put it. They traded in my view, higher wages and pensions in exchange for lower wages and a false job security.......Just my view.....


I have know some workers that NEEDed a sense of an everyday job, not there are any guarantees in the open shop. They had worked everyday for 10 years and then joined the union and even though they may have made more pay and better benefits they were never comfortable with a week or a month between jobs.


And that's why there is chocolate and white milk.


----------



## Timster

Yeah, to reply to those quoting me, it is definitely not an exact science regarding the union/non union guys.

... you guys are totally correct regarding those leaving the union that could not handle it, vs. those who leave for other reasons.

Good points... Personally, I am not an alpha male, by the way. 

I know a few alphas, though, and it has nothing to do with being tough, but instead, always being there when needed, and helping others.

Alpha males are actually the nicest guys we all will ever meet (they will kick some #@@ though if needed). 

Being an alpha has nothing to do with being tough, but it has everything to do with being strong and helping others; many kids miss this point.

Anyways, nothing wrong with working in the union, in my opinion. Shucks, I sometimes regret leaving, but I love being free. :thumbup:


----------



## LGLS

brian john said:


> JOEBELL got it 100% right... with all points espically opening the doors to more than sons nephews and close friends (which is still prevelant in some area). You can not tell me all those sons and nephews are any smarter than a few none related boys trying for a better future.


Brian, is this still going on by you?


I mean... really...


----------



## LGLS

Joe Momma said:


> When back in the hall you take whatever job you wish. And steady work(as with any job) is completely dependant on how valuable of a person you are.


No.

If there are 5000 members and the economy hits the crapper, and then there's only 2500 jobs, that doesn't mean the 2500 laid off members are worthless, below average, or less than someone who still has a job. 

That's merit shop, "you need to produce to compete against your fellow worker for your (actually your employer's) success" thinking.

Hook, line and sinker.

Welcome to Dumbsville. Population: you.


----------



## user4818

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> No.
> 
> If there are 5000 members and the economy hits the crapper, and then there's only 2500 jobs, that doesn't mean the 2500 laid off members are worthless, below average, or less than someone who still has a job.
> 
> That's merit shop, "you need to produce to compete against your fellow worker for your (actually your employer's) success" thinking.
> 
> Hook, line and sinker.
> 
> Welcome to Dumbsville. Population: you.


:sleep1:


----------



## 480sparky

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> No.
> 
> If there are 5000 members and the economy hits the crapper, and then there's only 2500 jobs, that doesn't mean the 2500 laid off members are worthless, below average, or less than someone who still has a job.
> 
> That's merit shop, "you need to produce to compete against your fellow worker for your (actually your employer's) success" thinking.
> 
> Hook, line and sinker.
> 
> Welcome to Dumbsville. Population: you.


So the union's answer is what?..... "Let's keep all the useless employees out on the job sites no matter how bad their work is solely based on their haveing joined The Brotherhood"?

Tell me, LGLS; if a union contractor has 5000 employees, and the economy tanks so he can only put 2500 of them to work, exactly what criteria will he use to determine who still gets to go to work next week?


----------



## retired 7373

480sparky said:


> So the union's answer is what?..... "Let's keep all the useless employees out on the job sites no matter how bad their work is solely based on their haveing joined The Brotherhood"?
> 
> Tell me, LGLS; if a union contractor has 5000 employees, and the economy tanks so he can only put 2500 of them to work, exactly what criteria will he use to determine who still gets to go to work next week?


Sparky-HAve you ever worked on a union job and for how long or how many years.


----------



## brian john

retired 7373 said:


> Sparky-HAve you ever worked on a union job and for how long or how many years.


Don't answer a question with a question:whistling2:


He is asking what is a legit question from an open shop guy that may never have worked union.

While I know there are rules for lay off. I also know on big jobs those rules get bent.


----------



## Lone Crapshooter

Brian What do you think of letting the contractors hiring crafts people and then having them sign up for the union as 1st Class or as a apprentice instead of being accepted in to the union then going to work.
LC


----------



## 480sparky

retired 7373 said:


> Sparky-HAve you ever worked on a union job and for how long or how many years.


*My* past work history either within or outside the union should have no bearing on the answer.


----------



## Bob Badger

Ken, next your pay and bennies will be questioned then will come the insults, then how your taking food off a brothers plate and eventually if you keep asking tough questions the vague threats will come but doubtful anyone will give you a direct answer to your questions. 

It is a very predictable pattern.


----------



## retired 7373

480sparky said:


> *My* past work history either within or outside the union should have no bearing on the answer.


Of course it has a bearing. And you just answered my question. Union contractors are just like non union contractors in that both are out to make a profit. Working for a contractor and stayinng busy and productive is one thing, working as hard and fast as you can for a contractor is another thing and is not necessary. All that should be required is a good productive day.


----------



## 480sparky

retired 7373 said:


> Of course it has a bearing. And you just answered my question. ..........


So how 'bout you answer mine?



I fail to see how whether or not I have ever worked for a union shop has any bearing on how some union shop in another part of the country deals with an economic downturn.


----------



## Bob Badger

480sparky said:


> I fail to see how whether or not I have ever worked for a union shop has any bearing on how some union shop in another part of the country deals with an economic downturn.


I agree with you, it has noting to do with answering a really simple question.



> if a union contractor has 5000 employees, and the economy tanks so he can only put 2500 of them to work, exactly what criteria will he use to determine who still gets to go to work next week?


You would think someone that _has_ been in the union could answer that even to those that may never have been in.


----------



## 480sparky

Bob Badger said:


> ..........You would think someone that _has_ been in the union could answer that even to those that may never have been in.


Yes, one would think so.

I don't think I'll hold my breath, though.


----------



## retired 7373

480sparky said:


> So the union's answer is what?..... "Let's keep all the useless employees out on the job sites no matter how bad their work is solely based on their haveing joined The Brotherhood"?
> 
> Tell me, LGLS; if a union contractor has 5000 employees, and the economy tanks so he can only put 2500 of them to work, exactly what criteria will he use to determine who still gets to go to work next week?


I did answer your question. The layoffs will have a lot to do with who likes who. What makes you think a contractor would have 2500 worthless employees because the contractor is union. As I said previously union contractors are like non union contractors in that they are also out to make a profit. People are laid off for various reason and who comes first is also various.
Sparky how many less than perfect electricians have you kept because you liked them or they kissed your ass and you laid off another electrician that was more productive than your friend. People get laid off for many reason, some valid, some personal. 
Sparky if you have a question ask it, your general question will not get a direct answer in the way you are looking for.


----------



## drsparky

480sparky said:


> So the union's answer is what?..... "Let's keep all the useless employees out on the job sites no matter how bad their work is solely based on their haveing joined The Brotherhood"?
> 
> Tell me, LGLS; if a union contractor has 5000 employees, and the economy tanks so he can only put 2500 of them to work, exactly what criteria will he use to determine who still gets to go to work next week?


Simple, it really comes down to the foreman. I talk to my boss and tell him who I want to let go. It is a management decision.


----------



## retired 7373

Bob Badger said:


> Ken, next your pay and bennies will be questioned then will come the insults, then how your taking food off a brothers plate and eventually if you keep asking tough questions the vague threats will come but doubtful anyone will give you a direct answer to your questions.
> 
> It is a very predictable pattern.


Yes with people like you its a very predictable pattern. No one on this site has ever threatened you Just because you are at the top of the food chain does not mean everybody or even most electricians are. Your pay and bennies are not what the average non union electrician makes and you know it.
You think you deserve your pay and bennies I wonder if you think the same about other electricians.
People like you and Sparky make me so happy that I never worked non union and also make me proud of being union


----------



## 480sparky

retired 7373 said:


> I did answer your question......


 
Uh, where? Did I miss it? Did the mods delete it? Can you give me a post #?



retired 7373 said:


> .....The layoffs will have a lot to do with who likes who. What makes you think a contractor would have 2500 worthless employees because the contractor is union.


I NEVER said they were worthless. I said the shop can't keep them busy. Don't put words in my mouth.



retired 7373 said:


> As I said previously union contractors are like non union contractors in that they are also out to make a profit. People are laid off for various reason and who comes first is also various.
> Sparky how many less than perfect electricians have you kept because you liked them or they kissed your ass and you laid off another electrician that was more productive than your friend. People get laid off for many reason, some valid, some personal......


Now you're assuming you know how I run MY business.



drsparky said:


> Simple, it really comes down to the foreman. I talk to my boss and tell him who I want to let go. It is a management decision.


So in short, union shops lay people off for the same reasons non-union shops do.

Yet when a non-union shop does so, they're back-stabbing SOBs who don't care about employees enough to pay them a decent wage, let alone give a damn about how they're going to pay their bills now that they've been kicked out to the curb.



retired 7373 said:


> Sparky if you have a question ask it, your general question will not get a direct answer in the way you are looking for.


I DID ask a question. I'm now looking for an answer. I don't see what's so difficult in answering it. *What criteria does a union outfit use to decide who stays and who goes during slow times?*

I'm not looking for any specific 'way' for an answer. I would simply like an answer. Is that so difficult to understand?


----------



## retired 7373

480sparky said:


> Uh, where? Did I miss it? Did the mods delete it? Can you give me a post #?
> 
> 
> 
> I NEVER said they were worthless. I said the shop can't keep them busy. Don't put words in my mouth.
> 
> 
> 
> Now you're assuming you know how I run MY business.
> 
> 
> 
> So in short, union shops lay people off for the same reasons non-union shops do.
> 
> Yet when a non-union shop does so, they're back-stabbing SOBs who don't care about employees enough to pay them a decent wage, let alone give a damn about how they're going to pay their bills now that they've been kicked out to the curb.
> 
> 
> 
> I DID ask a question. I'm now looking for an answer. I don't see what's so difficult in answering it. *What criteria does a union outfit use to decide who stays and who goes during slow times?*
> 
> I'm not looking for any specific 'way' for an answer. I would simply like an answer. Is that so difficult to understand?


Sparky your question has been answered, what else do you want. I am not telling you how to run your shop , but human nature is human nature. Union shops run much the same way as non union shops and lay offs are handled in much the same way as non union shops. Tell
me exactly what answer you are looking for in response to your question.


----------



## 480sparky

retired 7373 said:


> ...... I am not telling you how to run your shop , but human nature is human nature. ......


Again, you are putting words in my mouth. I NEVER said you were telling me how to run my business.

PLEASE READ MY POSTS and you will see I stated that you are assuming you know how I run my business.

If you cannot make that distinction, I truly feel sorry for you.



retired 7373 said:


> ........Union shops run much the same way as non union shops and lay offs are handled in much the same way as non union shops...........


NOW you have answered my question.


----------



## brian john

Lone Crapshooter said:


> Brian What do you think of letting the contractors hiring crafts people and then having them sign up for the union as 1st Class or as a apprentice instead of being accepted in to the union then going to work.
> LC


I hire most of my men off the street (in good times) and then bring them into the local.

For the record if any contractor had 5,000 or a 1,000 people 1/3 of them are bodies on the job playing switch with their thumbs, ass to mouth and then SWITCH.


----------



## applejack

I'm brand new here (as of today 1 Aug 2009). I have been following this thread with great interest. 
I was curious as to opinions concerning working union or non-union. I'm a former Navy Electronics Tech but I know very little as to what it means to work in a union. As it turns out I've applied for the Apprenticeship program with IBEW #38 here in Cleveland for the TeleCom program. I think, from what I have been told, that the training is excellent and the classes are taught by Cuyahoga Community College, which is a great thing. It's a good school. So I'll just continue to read everyone's posts here to get a better feel for it all.


----------



## paul d.

welcome. lots of squids here.


----------



## Southeast Power

Golden Arc said:


> In this part of the country the Union is considered the Devil.


Thats why the poor South will stay poor.


----------



## Southeast Power

Mike M. said:


> Hello to everyone this is my first post around here. I am at a standstill about what I should do, so Im looking for some experienced opinions that might help me out. Also I realize this is a sensitive subject, but I am not looking to get into a philosophical argument about unions.
> 
> I am about to graduate from a 2yr technical school, and basically with the way my state board works, I have 2 options to get my Journeyman's license.
> 
> *Option 1 - *Join my local IBEW. Get credit for 2 years of the apprentice program, but will still have to complete 3 more years of union school.
> 
> *Option 2 - *Get on with a private contractor. Do 4000 hours of work experience, and won't have to go to school at night.
> 
> 
> What I am mainly concerned with is the actual work experience. I would like to have my own shop at some point and I want to get experience doing more complex work (I'm not very interested in residential). Am I missing out by not attending the union school? Is most of the commercial/industrial work done by union shops? Please post any thoughts you have on this subject. Thanks


 
OK back to the original question:
Should he go to school and have on the job training (IBEW) 

or

just OJT(work the hours and take the test)?

I would say this:
If you have a chance to get in an IBEW apprenticeship program take it. World class education and its free.
There are plenty of guys on this forum that can't get in or got screened out and can't get over it.
The extra year isn't going to make a difference down the road.

Work hard, get dirty and go home tired.:thumbsup:


----------



## Southeast Power

retired 7373 said:


> linehammer76 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I started as a sparky in a small non union company, just me and the boss. He taught me a lot in a short time and I bought the Mike Holt videos and read the codebook. I learned more in the first year than I would have learned in 5 years working union just because most union journeymen don't want to teach you anything.
> 
> I wound up on the railroad as a communications lineman/signalman, had to take a big electrical theory test and they sent me to more school. Was there for a year until budget cuts and poor economy led to me being laid off on my last day of a year's probation. I never did anything wrong, except I was hurt on the job 4 months in and put in a claim, sat home for 2 weeks while I healed up. Their excuse on my last day was that I was a safety hazard. It was a preventable accident, nothing would have happened had I stayed home! Anyway, the union couldn't represent me because I was still on probation. Meanwhile I was paying dues for the whole year up to that point. What good did the union do for me? They did nothing.
> 
> I am now working non-union again. Non union, I worked harder than I did union, and found out that I worked around a better quality of people, both personal and professionally. On the RR there were a lot of prima donnas who thought they knew everything and always thought they were better than you, because they never worked anywhere else and don't know what it's like to make a living in the real world. On the RR we worked 3 hours a day and got paid for 8. Yea, it's a good gig, but I hated being around those people.
> 
> Non union shops got their idiots to work with too, but if you had to settle something the old fashioned way there are no rules are regulations. The pay was better for me non-union because my old boss paid me good, up to 19/hr half on the books half cash my first year, 2 dollar raises per hour every 6 months, 2-4 hours OT every day. Nice checks every friday with a lil bundle of cash. RR payed me the same every week 21/hour on books no OT at all. Only good thing about RR was the retirement/pension and annuity, which is under close scrutiny these days. Things are changing drastically all around in that union some bad times ahead...kind of a bad time to consider being in construction trade...but we are who we are...
> 
> I have been on both sides and being in the union is like playing one big game. Yea everywhere you go there's bull**** but it's really bad in the union. I like working in a non union shop with about 4-8 guys, 3-5 trucks max, a boss who isn't afraid to get his hands dirty with ya and show you a new thing every now n then, and knowing that the work you do is top notch quality goin in gettin dirty comin home knowin you did an honest day's work.
> 
> Union guys are spoiled IMO, and the work they do can be criticized. I've been on residential jobs after a union guy was in there-one example was bringing all the home runs into a 200I murray panel by using the big 2" knockout in back upper left, ran em through a 2"locknut n bushing(guess he didn't want to take the time bringing them in individually)...brought the #2 SEU in the same way on the back upper right...that may be how some unions guys do their work but that's a violation in my book.
> 
> Now, not all union guys are shytbirds. Yes, I got great training on the RR and learned a lot. There's plenty of scumbags non union too. It's just that in my experience union workers, no matter what the trade, tend to be lazier, not as efficient, and overpaid. Also, you need not go through an apprenticeship program to become a top notch electrician. If you can play the game and you know somebody, and kiss ass real well, go union. If you think you can hang in the "real world" and you trust your skills and want to get paid for them, go non union.[/quote
> 
> So after 1 year or less of working for the railroad and going to school most of that time you know all about the union. lol-lol-lol- You were most likely laid off because 1- you were oneof the last people hired and 2- you might have actually been considered a safety hazard.
> You have very little life experience and a lot to learn.
> That railroad job was the best job you will ever have and when you retired you would have it made. As far as your best buddy the contractor paying you cash- he is actually screwing you over, not paying benefits and cheating you out of social security benefits. In case you dont know this is against the law. I feel sorry for people like you, you reming me of the non union people on the same job not making any health benefits and making less an hour and writing on the **** house walls about not having t opay for a job. You have obviously been brain washed and you actually think you are better off. While your family suffers you beat on your chest about what a great job you have. Please stay non union and do us a favor.
> 
> lol-lol-lol-
> 
> 
> 
> Nice story about the rail road in the old days.
> How is this sad ramble going to help this young man make a career decision in this century?
Click to expand...


----------



## Southeast Power

Runway said:


> reality for me is I have a great job with a solid company that pays me very well for my efforts. My family has been taken good care of and we will be able to retire well in spite of the Democrats.
> 
> *I was reading your post with a small amount of interest until you blamed the Democrats for our ecomonic problems.*
> *I guess everything in Texas is big, especially denial* :laughing:
> 
> 
> In our area, 95% of the work is Open Shop.
> 
> Whatever side of the labor fence you are on, there is good to be had and bad to be tolerated - but what happens to anyone happens to all of us. We eacgh are responsible for how we react to our circumstances. I firmly believe that the trade is still a good chioce for a young person to get in to.


 .........................


----------



## brian john

jrannis said:


> Thats why the poor South will stay poor.


THE "POOR SOUTH" is kicking the North's ass at this point and this gap will grow. Taxes in the north are climbing and the great migration from the south to the north has reversed. The north east is a SPENT commodity, unless they wake up and smell the roses. And the liberal do gooders will never do this. It feels to good to gave away someone else's money.


----------



## Southeast Power

brian john said:


> THE "POOR SOUTH" is kicking the North's ass at this point and this gap will grow. Taxes in the north are climbing and the great migration from the south to the north has reversed. The north east is a SPENT commodity, unless they wake up and smell the roses. And the liberal do gooders will never do this. It feels to good to gave away someone else's money.


Really?
Check out the GDP per State http://www.bea.gov/newsreleases/regional/gdp_state/gspSE_glance.htm and get back to us. :thumbsup:


----------



## Frasbee

jrannis said:


> Really?
> Check out the GDP per State http://www.bea.gov/newsreleases/regional/gdp_state/gspSE_glance.htm and get back to us. :thumbsup:


Ha.

The north isn't rich, they're just inflated.

Cost of living is higher in northern states and especially in cities no matter what state you live in, which equates to higher wages.

An electrician in NYC may make more but his expenses are higher than someone from Bumblef*ck, GA.


----------



## brian john

Frasbee said:


> Ha.
> 
> The north isn't rich, they're just inflated.
> 
> Cost of living is higher in northern states and especially in cities no matter what state you live in, which equates to higher wages.
> 
> An electrician in NYC may make more but his expenses are higher than someone from Bumblef*ck, GA.



And life in bumblef*ck is WAYYYY more relaxed.


----------



## brian john

jrannis said:


> Really?
> Check out the GDP per State http://www.bea.gov/newsreleases/regional/gdp_state/gspSE_glance.htm and get back to us. :thumbsup:


And yeah??????


----------



## paul d.

i live in bumble f#$#%, ga. nice place.


----------



## jbfan

paul d. said:


> i live in bumble f#$#%, ga. nice place.


 
GREAT PLACE!:thumbup:


----------



## Frasbee

I've passed through Georgia once.

There's nothing more to that story.


----------



## brian john

Every state in the UNion is GREAT IMO, all have some beauty to offer. I love the old towns that exist in every state and in many states are dying.

I worked in southern GA and it is VERY FLAT but a nice place to see.


----------



## Frasbee

I miss Pennsylvania's rolling hills and windy roads.

Philadelphia has a lot of parks and woods. Plenty of places to ride a bike or go hiking.

New Orleans ain't got $hit, unless you like mosquito, snake, 'gator infested swamps.


----------



## brian john

Frasbee said:


> I miss Pennsylvania's rolling hills and windy roads.
> 
> Philadelphia has a lot of parks and woods. Plenty of places to ride a bike or go hiking.
> 
> New Orleans ain't got $hit, unless you like mosquito, snake, 'gator infested swamps.


Get away from the city


----------



## MDShunk

brian john said:


> Get away from the city


Yeah, no kiddin. You're single. Throw a dart at a map and go Greyhound. I think you can still go one-way pretty much anywhere for 89 bucks.


----------



## RePhase277

Frasbee said:


> I've passed through Georgia once.
> 
> There's nothing more to that story.


You didn't stay long enough. As a kid growing up in Georgia, I used to hate it, thinking there were better places to be. Now that I've been all over this great nation, I find that very few places can even come close to the people and scenery you can find in Ga. A few places in Texas and Oklahoma come close, but I keep finding my way back home. 

In NY, people look at you funny when you hold a door for them. People in Colorado City are just generally impolite. Alot of folks in Cali think they are better than anyone else. Washington was beautiful, but I was terrified that Mt. Rainier was going to blow any minute. I hated Louisiana. Florida is nice to visit briefly, but I can't stand to be there more than a few days. The mentality of people in Alabama is quite stymieing. Etc, etc. No, I keep coming home to Georgia.


----------



## SideWorker

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Brian, is this still going on by you?
> 
> 
> I mean... really...


It's still going on in every local in NJ. You think those 20 apprentices they're letting in a year with the same last names as the BA's and other higher-ups just happened to score the highest on both tests?


----------



## SideWorker

retired 7373 said:


> Of course it has a bearing. And you just answered my question. Union contractors are just like non union contractors in that both are out to make a profit. Working for a contractor and stayinng busy and productive is one thing, *working as hard and fast as you can for a contractor is another thing and is not necessary*. All that should be required is a good productive day.


Maybe that's why I always work while the "old timers" with your horrid attitude are always on the bench.

There is nothing worse than the "slow down, you're working us out of a job" attitude from the old timers. That attitude is why so many people hate unions, and I can't argue with them. There is no reason why you can't work your hardest each and every day.


----------



## SideWorker

applejack said:


> I'm brand new here (as of today 1 Aug 2009). I have been following this thread with great interest.
> I was curious as to opinions concerning working union or non-union. I'm a former Navy Electronics Tech but I know very little as to what it means to work in a union. As it turns out I've applied for the Apprenticeship program with IBEW #38 here in Cleveland for the TeleCom program. I think, from what I have been told, that the training is excellent and the classes are taught by Cuyahoga Community College, which is a great thing. It's a good school. So I'll just continue to read everyone's posts here to get a better feel for it all.


IMO going union at the beginning is best. I've seen even the worst union haters say that the IBEW training is good. Go thru the apprenticeship, you'll get good training and make good money, you really can't go wrong. At the end you decide if you want to stay union, go non-union, or start your own business.


----------



## knowshorts

SideWorker said:


> Maybe that's why I always work while the "old timers" with your horrid attitude are always on the bench.
> 
> There is nothing worse than the "slow down, you're working us out of a job" attitude from the old timers. That attitude is why so many people hate unions, and I can't argue with them. There is no reason why you can't work your hardest each and every day.


I don't agree with the "working us out a job" at all. I always preferred to look at it as getting to the next job sooner. Half full. 

You're not supposed to work you hardest each and every day. Work your smartest. There are days were you have to beat your body up, but do you want to be an "old timer" who can't move?


----------



## retired 7373

SideWorker said:


> Maybe that's why I always work while the "old timers" with your horrid attitude are always on the bench.
> 
> There is nothing worse than the "slow down, you're working us out of a job" attitude from the old timers. That attitude is why so many people hate unions, and I can't argue with them. There is no reason why you can't work your hardest each and every day.


SideWorker- I never said anything about slowdown that was your words. You are a child who does not have a clue. You think you are impressing your bosses and they are secretly laughing at you. Wait until you get hurt at work and with your attitude you will and see how long your contractor keeps paying you. All I can say is I feel sorry for you and that you have a lot to learn in life. I always worked industrial. YOU obviously work residential or commerical. YOur attitude will change as you age and after you get screwed over by a contractor your attitude will change.I only hope you do not get someone else hurt when you make your stupid mistake and hope you dont get killed.


----------



## brian john

retired 7373 said:


> SideWorker- I never said anything about slowdown that was your words. You are a child who does not have a clue. You think you are impressing your bosses and they are secretly laughing at you.



When I was a young mechanic I was told the exact thing you wrote. I told then leave me alone. At the end of the project they were laid off I was given a service truck.




> Wait until you get hurt at work and with your attitude you will and see how long your contractor keeps paying you. All I can say is I feel sorry for you and that you have a lot to learn in life. I always worked industrial. YOU obviously work residential or commerical. YOur attitude will change as you age and after you get screwed over by a contractor your attitude will change.I only hope you do not get someone else hurt when you make your stupid mistake and hope you dont get killed.


Hard work is often rewarded, slacker mentality is never rewarded.


----------



## oldman

Brian, if I've asked you once, i've asked you a million times....please stop letting facts get in the way of good opinions...you can not disprove an opinion, no matter how hard you try...


----------



## MDShunk

There's a lot of wisdom in the heads of guys like retired7373, but when I read posts similar to his last one, the words to an old Cranberries song come to my mind. The song's called "Zombie" and it's about not thinking for yourself; just spouting the party line and doing what you do because everyone else is. I don't suspect it's musically very appealing to guys in retired7373's age bracket, but here it is just the same:


----------



## SideWorker

retired 7373 said:


> You are a child who does not have a clue.


 I have a job, tho.


> You think you are impressing your bosses and they are secretly laughing at you.


 They are most certainly NOT laughing at me. They respect me for doing the right thing and not being a slug. They reward me with a job while they punish slackers with a layoff.


> Wait until you get hurt at work and with your attitude you will and see how long your contractor keeps paying you.


 What does getting hurt have to do with this? If I get hurt, workmen's comp takes over. What contractor would keep paying me?!?


> All I can say is I feel sorry for you and that you have a lot to learn in life.


 I *DO* have a lot to learn, but not from you. Most certainly not from you.


> YOur attitude will change as you age and after you get screwed over by a contractor your attitude will change.


 I hope my attitude doesn't change. And yes, I have been screwed over by contractors, so what? Am I supposed to put it in the ass of every other contractor because of it?


> I only hope you do not get someone else hurt when you make your stupid mistake and hope you dont get killed.


 Where does getting someone killed come into play? What type of stretch are you desperately trying to make here?

Honestly, people like you have completely ruined the union image, I really don't even want to speak with you anymore.


----------



## MDShunk

SideWorker, thank you for being part of the change. You're the guy Ed Hill is begging everyone to be more like. I'll put in a good word for you next time Ed and I go golfing. There will be a little something extra in your paycheck. 



(Okay, so I don't know Ed Hill and I don't golf.)


----------



## SideWorker

knowshorts said:


> You're not supposed to work you hardest each and every day.


 I disagree with that.


> Work your smartest.


 That's very true, but there is no reason why you can't work hard and smart.


> There are days were you have to beat your body up, but do you want to be an "old timer" who can't move?


 If you have medical problems then you should look for another career or at least make sure that you move up to management pretty quickly. I think working hard is healthy as long as you're not stupid about it. If you "can't move" when you get older then you ignored your medical problems along the way and made the wrong choices.


----------



## Frasbee

Ah, the Cranberries bring me back to my junior high days.


----------



## retired 7373

lol-lol-lol- of course all you contractors want people to work as hard and fast as they can or will. Yes there are many people out there who are stupid enough to believe all the garbage and lies.
I have never heard anyone tell me to slow down nor have I ever told anyone to slow down.
Shunk-lol-lol- You are not even good enough to wear ED HILLS underwear, play golf, yes in your dreams. 
As far as getting old, hopefully you will all live to be old someday. Its ok, impress yourself, many others are laughing at you, cntractors included. It has always been my experience that if a contractor does not make money on a job it is the contractors fault, of course it is always blamed on labor. You know the old saying, **** starts at the top and rolls down hill.
Brian you got the service truck because someone liked you, chances are you would have gotten the truck regardless,of course working hard did not hurt. I will say again, no one needs to work as hard and fast as possible. 
Shunk, the music was good, I still have old albums and I grew up on that kind of music. And once again remember all you kids you will also grow old. The contractor is not your friend or enemy. For the most part the people you deal with are the foreman and maybe a general foreman.
So you still have a job, gee I wonder what the many thousands and thousands of other electrician who are working would say to you. It would be interesting to know what the other electricians on the job thank of you. I have seen so many people like you come and go- 
I have seen the bidding books and computer programs. I know generally, or used to know hw contractors bid work and how much is required.
Brian one question, are you saying all those other electricians were intentionally working slow and you were the only person giving the contractor a good days work for a days pay???
oldman-lol-lol-lol you are so predictable- go back to friends and family


----------



## oldman

retired 7373 said:


> lol-lol-lol- of course all you contractors want people to work as hard and fast as they can or will. Yes there are many people out there who are stupid enough to believe all the garbage and lies.
> I have never heard anyone tell me to slow down nor have I ever told anyone to slow down.
> Shunk-lol-lol- You are not even good enough to wear ED HILLS underwear, play golf, yes in your dreams.
> As far as getting old, hopefully you will all live to be old someday. Its ok, impress yourself, many others are laughing at you, cntractors included. It has always been my experience that if a contractor does not make money on a job it is the contractors fault, of course it is always blamed on labor. You know the old saying, **** starts at the top and rolls down hill.
> Brian you got the service truck because someone liked you, chances are you would have gotten the truck regardless,of course working hard did not hurt. I will say again, no one needs to work as hard and fast as possible.
> Shunk, the music was good, I still have old albums and I grew up on that kind of music. And once again remember all you kids you will also grow old. The contractor is not your friend or enemy. For the most part the people you deal with are the foreman and maybe a general foreman.
> So you still have a job, gee I wonder what the many thousands and thousands of other electrician who are working would say to you. It would be interesting to know what the other electricians on the job thank of you. I have seen so many people like you come and go-
> I have seen the bidding books and computer programs. I know generally, or used to know hw contractors bid work and how much is required.
> Brian one question, are you saying all those other electricians were intentionally working slow and you were the only person giving the contractor a good days work for a days pay???
> oldman-lol-lol-lol you are so predictable- go back to friends and family


the fact that you have survived in this world as long as you have is proof that Darwin was wrong....good luck though...


----------



## retired 7373

You people are confusing working hard and working hard and as fast as you can. These are 2 completly different working methods. There is nothing wrong with working hard
I have always worked hard and that is why I have as good a retirement as i do. And working a lot of hours
You people also do not understand how people work. Everyone has a different work speed. Some slower and some faster that others,most work in the middle speed. This all averaged together gives the contractor a good or great days work.


----------



## 480sparky

retired 7373 said:


> ......... Everyone has a different work speed. Some slower and some faster that others,most work in the middle speed. This all averaged together gives the contractor a good or great days work.


But, when it comes time to cull the herd, which ones do you think are going to be left to the wolves?


----------



## MDShunk

retired 7373 said:


> Everyone has a different work speed. Some slower and some faster that others,most work in the middle speed. This all averaged together gives the contractor a good or great days work.


You're absolutely right. I like to get rid of the slow one's in favor of the faster and middle speed one's to guarantee a productive day.


----------



## NolaTigaBait

I'm a small 1 man shop. I can see the pros and cons of union membership. I think people have pretty well covered this topic. I have to say though when I was in the union it was great. I was in the SIU(seafarers international union). I used to work on a tugboat on the river. We got $200 a day , all the food you could eat, benefits etc... I can understand why someone would want to be in one. For the employee, it does seem like a good deal. You aren't going to get rich, but you can make a livable wage with benefits.


----------



## 480sparky

MDShunk said:


> You're absolutely right. I like to get rid of the slow one's in favor of the faster and middle speed one's to guarantee a productive day.


I think I'll join the union with the sole purpose of being the slowest electrician on record. The fastest guy in the world will make it up. All will be well. :laughing:


----------



## brian john

> There are days were you have to beat your body up, but do you want to be an "old timer" who can't move?


My grandmother use to say "Work smarter no harder."

In any large job there are hard workers, smart workers, ok guys and slackers. Same in open shop and union.


----------



## brian john

> Brian one question, are you saying all those other electricians were intentionally working slow and you were the only person giving the contractor a good days work for a days pay???
> oldman-lol-lol-lol you are so predictable- go back to friends and family


Not ALL some where, many men were working hard producing. The one crew I was on had a dumb slacker for the sub foreman. He set the tone. For the one crew.
But there were several whiners that had the what was called the Power house mentality.


----------



## SideWorker

480sparky said:


> I think I'll join the union with the sole purpose of being the slowest electrician on record. The fastest guy in the world will make it up. All will be well. :laughing:


That's what gets me pissed. Those of us who are actually working hard everyday are making up for the slackers. Without the people working hard, the work wouldn't be getting done on time, the contractors would be losing more money, the customers would be charged more and we would lose even more market share. 

The slackers are cursing the men who are busting their ass everyday, even tho those men are keeping the slackers employed.


----------



## NolaTigaBait

SideWorker said:


> That's what gets me pissed. Those of us who are actually working hard everyday are making up for the slackers. Without the people working hard, the work wouldn't be getting done on time, the contractors would be losing more money, the customers would be charged more and we would lose even more market share.
> 
> The slackers are cursing the men who are busting their ass everyday, even tho those men are keeping the slackers employed.


Ok, then mind your own business, keep doing what you do....OR, go start your own company.


----------



## SideWorker

NolaTigaBait said:


> Ok, then mind your own business, keep doing what you do....OR, go start your own company.


In what way am I not minding my own business? I replied to a person who openly recommended that we slow down on a public forum.

Also, I do have my own business, but what does that have to do with this thread? Hell, what does anything in your post have to do with this thread? You seem to have an issue, yet your description of it is pretty bad...

And for the record, the good of the brotherhood (including the way the members act and work) *IS* my business.


----------



## 480sparky

SideWorker said:


> That's what gets me pissed. Those of us who are actually working hard everyday are making up for the slackers. Without the people working hard, the work wouldn't be getting done on time, the contractors would be losing more money, the customers would be charged more and we would lose even more market share.
> 
> The slackers are cursing the men who are busting their ass everyday, even tho those men are keeping the slackers employed.


So instead of tolerating slackers, why not kick 'em to the curb and keep the guys who give a shît? Then, productivity will increase, jobs are done on time, customers will be happy, the inspector will not need to come back, profits will go up, paychecks will get fatter, and those who care will make more money.

Apparently, however, that's not the 'union way'. It seems they prefer to keep the slackers and it will somehow magically all work out in the end.


----------



## NolaTigaBait

SideWorker said:


> In what way am I not minding my own business? I replied to a person who openly recommended that we slow down on a public forum.
> 
> And for the record, the good of the brotherhood (including the way the members act and work) *IS* my business.


I didn't read the whole post. My take was that you were worried about what everyone else is doing, while you bust ass an work. Am I right?...Are you a union agent?


----------



## SideWorker

480sparky said:


> So instead of tolerating slackers, why not kick 'em to the curb and keep the guys who give a shît? Then, productivity will increase, jobs are done on time, customers will be happy, the inspector will not need to come back, profits will go up, paychecks will get fatter, and those who care will make more money.
> 
> Apparently, however, that's not the 'union way'. It seems they prefer to keep the slackers and it will somehow magically all work out in the end.


 You are absolutely correct.


----------



## SideWorker

NolaTigaBait said:


> I didn't read the whole post. My take was that you were worried about what everyone else is doing, while you bust ass an work. Am I right?...Are you a union agent?


Do I go around the job proclaiming that I am the best worker and everyone else sucks? Nope.

Do I call out a guy who spouts off about how we shouldn't work hard everyday, especially when said guy is *effecting me and my livelihood*. Yup.

IMO, the "slow down, you're working yourself out of a job" attitude is the worst thing for unions.


----------



## NolaTigaBait

SideWorker said:


> Do I go around the job proclaiming that I am the best worker and everyone else sucks? Nope.
> 
> Do I call out a guy who spouts off about how we shouldn't work hard everyday, especially when said guy is *effecting me and my livelihood*. Yup.


I'm not saying you do. I used to get pissed when I was doing more work than the next guy. I 've found that it gets you nowhere. You can't help what the next guy is doing. At some point the slackers get weeded out..........right?...But then again, I've never worked a union shop , so what do I know?


----------



## SideWorker

NolaTigaBait said:


> I'm not saying you do. I used to get pissed when I was doing more work than the next guy. I 've found that it gets you nowhere. You can't help what the next guy is doing. At some point the slackers get weeded out..........right?...But then again, I've never worked a union shop , so what do I know?


Well, that's the whole point, the slackers aren't getting weeded out. They are a cancer, but as long as they know someone who is supporting them, we are stuck with them. Then they spread their attitude to the younger guys and make things even worse.


----------



## NolaTigaBait

SideWorker said:


> Well, that's the whole point, the slackers aren't getting weeded out. They are a cancer, but as long as they know someone who is supporting them, we are stuck with them. Then they spread their attitude to the younger guys and make things even worse.


Gotcha.


----------



## oldman

NolaTigaBait said:


> At some point the slackers get weeded out..........right?...But then again, I've never worked a union shop , so what do I know?


that's the heart of this argument...they don't


----------



## NolaTigaBait

oldman said:


> that's the heart of this argument...they don't


haha, like I said, I didn't read that far into it.


----------



## retired 7373

SideWorker said:


> Do I go around the job proclaiming that I am the best worker and everyone else sucks? Nope.
> 
> Do I call out a guy who spouts off about how we shouldn't work hard everyday, especially when said guy is *effecting me and my livelihood*. Yup.
> 
> IMO, the "slow down, you're working yourself out of a job" attitude is the worst thing for unions.


 Very few of you people know anything about working as an union electrician. As far as you getting mad because other electricians do not work as hard as you shows your true mentatily-spelling- You call out a guy and what do you say to him- do you go crying to the foreman- that you are working harder that the other guy-lol-lol- you people are pathetic.
sideworker it would be nice to know what type of electrical work you do- i am not asking, but it would be nice to know your hourly pay and benefits.
Sideworker- the non union contractor puts worker against worker and uses a lot of 50's style management- which says that if you make your people mad they will work harder- you see the harder you work the more money the contractor makes. Which making money is not a bad thing. 
Side worker the contractor is making a fool of you and you are not even smart enough to know it. When you go crying to your foreman he laughs at you behind your back. But as you say I'm old and retired and do not have to worry about people like you anymore.


----------



## SideWorker

retired 7373 said:


> Very few of you people know anything about working as an union electrician.


 Yes, you're right, YOU are the only one here who knows anything about it 


> As far as you getting mad because other electricians do not work as hard as you shows your true mentatily-spelling-


 Good, I'm glad, then maybe the other people will start pulling their own weight.


> You call out a guy and what do you say to him- do you go crying to the foreman- that you are working harder that the other guy-lol-lol- you people are pathetic.


 I've only had to do it once in real life, and I did it to his face. Pathetic? For what? Standing up for what I believe in? Trying to keep the union alive?

Is telling a slug that he is bringing the union down by telling all the guys "Nothing new after 2:00" really pathetic? To you I guess it is since you were the guy who said that in his day. "Nothing dirty after 2:30"? "Hide and seek for 2 G's a week"? I bet you have those copyrighted.


> sideworker it would be nice to know what type of electrical work you do- i am not asking, but it would be nice to know your hourly pay and benefits.


 Journeyman Wireman. Package is around $70, envelope is around $46. Pretty standard in NJ.


> Sideworker- the non union contractor puts worker against worker and uses a lot of 50's style management- which says that if you make your people mad they will work harder- you see the harder you work the more money the contractor makes. Which making money is not a bad thing.


 It's an excellent thing! My JOB is to make the contractor money, that is what I do for a living. 


> Side worker the contractor is making a fool of you and you are not even smart enough to know it.


Prove it. 


> When you go crying to your foreman he laughs at you behind your back.


 I've never cried to my foreman, not once. The slackers are the ones who do that.


> But as you say I'm old and retired and do not have to worry about people like you anymore.


 And I'm glad that's true, one less slug bringing us down.


----------



## westernexplorer

NolaTigaBait said:


> I'm a small 1 man shop. I can see the pros and cons of union membership. I think people have pretty well covered this topic. I have to say though when I was in the union it was great. I was in the SIU(seafarers international union). I used to work on a tugboat on the river. We got $200 a day , all the food you could eat, benefits etc... I can understand why someone would want to be in one. For the employee, it does seem like a good deal. You aren't going to get rich, but you can make a livable wage with benefits.


Bullseye........:thumbup:


----------



## Speedy Petey

retired 7373 said:


> Side worker the contractor is making a fool of you and you are not even smart enough to know it. When you go crying to your foreman he laughs at you behind your back. But as you say I'm old and retired and do not have to worry about people like you anymore.


Problem is Sideworker is right and you know it. That or you are too far gone to admit it.


----------



## retired 7373

Speedy Petey said:


> Problem is Sideworker is right and you know it. That or you are too far gone to admit it.


Petey tell me exactly what sideworker is rightabout so that I know exactly what to reply to.


----------



## Speedy Petey

retired 7373 said:


> Petey tell me exactly what sideworker is rightabout so that I know exactly what to reply to.


Exactly what you quoted in post #182. Especially the last line.


----------



## retired 7373

SideWorker said:


> Yes, you're right, YOU are the only one here who knows anything about it
> Good, I'm glad, then maybe the other people will start pulling their own weight.
> I've only had to do it once in real life, and I did it to his face. Pathetic? For what? Standing up for what I believe in? Trying to keep the union alive?
> 
> Is telling a slug that he is bringing the union down by telling all the guys "Nothing new after 2:00" really pathetic? To you I guess it is since you were the guy who said that in his day. "Nothing dirty after 2:30"? "Hide and seek for 2 G's a week"? I bet you have those copyrighted.
> Journeyman Wireman. Package is around $70, envelope is around $46. Pretty standard in NJ.
> It's an excellent thing! My JOB is to make the contractor money, that is what I do for a living.
> 
> Prove it.
> I've never cried to my foreman, not once. The slackers are the ones who do that. And I'm glad that's true, one less slug bringing us down.


Sideworker- are you saying you are a union electrician- I have never heard anything about not working after 2:00 or not getting dirty after 2:30. Must be a new jersey thing. 
As far as me being a slug-lol-lol-lol-whatever. management sets the tone of the job and also sets the pace. Depends on the type of contract.
Unlike you I wish you the best-lol-lol-lol-


----------



## NolaTigaBait

Retired, you can replace the lol's with::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


----------



## SideWorker

retired 7373 said:


> Sideworker- are you saying you are a union electrician


Of course I'm a union electrician, have I not made that clear thru out the thread?


----------



## oldman

SideWorker said:


> Of course I'm a union electrician, have I not made that clear thru out the thread?


you actually need to type slower for him to follow along...just an observation...


----------



## Speedy Petey

retired 7373 said:


> management sets the tone of the job and also sets the pace. Depends on the type of contract.


Now this deserves some :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:


----------



## retired 7373

petey- I am retired- what is your interest in that- I disagree with sideworker, that is obvious. I do not think anyone in the electrical trade has to work as hard and fast as possible to do right by the contractor. I also do not agree with slow walking the job and never have. I do believe in the union and I also believe in contractors making money. Of course for all I know sideworker is stealing all his material off the job to do his side work with and thinks he making good by working as fast as he can. So who knows what these people are all about we could all be anything we want on these chat rooms.


----------



## SideWorker

oldman said:


> you actually need to type slower for him to follow along...just an observation...


S o r r y a b o u t t h a t .


I s t h i s b e t t e r ?

:whistling2:


----------



## SideWorker

Speedy Petey said:


> Now this deserves some :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:


I agree. Mainly because earlier in the thread he told us to slow down, but now he is saying that management is the one doing it.


----------



## Speedy Petey

retired 7373 said:


> petey- I am retired- what is your interest in that-


None. Where did I express any? :001_huh:


----------



## Speedy Petey

SideWorker said:


> S o r r y a b o u t t h a t .
> 
> 
> I s t h i s b e t t e r ?
> 
> :whistling2:


No, no, no.
You need to actually pause a half second between key strokes. It's works, I promise. :laughing:


----------



## SideWorker

retired 7373 said:


> petey- I am retired- what is your interest in that- I disagree with sideworker, that is obvious. I do not think anyone in the electrical trade has to work as hard and fast as possible to do right by the contractor. I also do not agree with slow walking the job and never have. I do believe in the union and I also believe in contractors making money. Of course for all I know sideworker is stealing all his material off the job to do his side work with and thinks he making good by working as fast as he can. So who knows what these people are all about we could all be anything we want on these chat rooms.


You're right, the faster I work the more romex connectors I take home with me. I setup my own merit system :thumbup:


----------



## SideWorker

retired 7373, this is getting out of hand. We're passing around too many insults and this is going no where. We are supposed to be brothers looking for a common good. 

I'm sure you're a nice guy and full of wisdom. However, as I've said many times, I just don't care for the "don't work yourself out of a job" attitude. Maybe that really isn't your attitude, but it seemed like in from what you said.

I do work hard (AND smart) everyday, that was the work ethic I was taught. And I've had too many "old timers" try and break that habit, which I won't let happen. My contractors don't laugh at me, they respect me as a hard worker and keep me while they lay off the people who choose to work slower. That's just the name of the game. 

In the end, continuing to argue will get us no where, so I'm just gonna call this a draw. No hard feelings.


----------



## retired 7373

sideworker- I never said anything about slowing down- I did object to the work as fast as you can attitude. It sounds like you have a lot of labor problen in jersey. I have worked a lot of different places in the United States and have never heard the things you are talking about. What slackers there have been have been taken care of by the contractors and yes the contractor always sets the tone of the job. I have mostly worked industrial job and never residental. As far as the name calling I believe you started the slug thing. And no I did not see that you stated you were a union electrician, everything i read was your hatred of the union. I wish you the best, bu hope you look back on this conversation 20 year from now and see wht shape your body is in.


----------



## retired 7373

Petey- how many drinks or beers have you had tonight. Hope you enjoyed your fun.


----------



## SideWorker

retired 7373 said:


> everything i read was your hatred of the union.


Then you REALLY need to get your glasses checked or work on your reading comprehension. I did not say one thing that can be remotely mistaken for union hatred. I love the union, that's why I don't like the people who are ruining it.


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## Lone Crapshooter

I am watching the signitured contractors we use at work and if you dont turn the work out you dont stay around long.
LC


----------



## Speedy Petey

retired 7373 said:


> Petey- how many drinks or beers have you had tonight. Hope you enjoyed your fun.


Nope sir. Sorry, I don't drink.
Not sure what you are getting at either, nor do I care at this point.


----------



## miller_elex

Lone Crapshooter said:


> I am watching the signitured contractors we use at work and if you dont turn the work out you dont stay around long.
> LC


That's how it rolls these days. The only time they stick around is when the economy is hot! hot! hot! too hot to need every body you can find, able bodied or not.

Now I like the union because the old-timers have a chance to work, and a chance to be semi-retired when work is slow, and recover. When I am 55, I will still want to work, and take half the year off. And I mean work in the field, who the hell wants into the office, unless you're a complete suckup?


----------



## retired 7373

Petey- Sideworker-Anyone- who thinks they have to work as fast as possible to keep their job cannot be helped- Now I know you people will twist these words around as usual. I did not say not to work or not to work hard. The contractors on this site are mostly non union or union people who have dropped their tickets and started their own business. Notice again with these words I said mostly.
Most of these contractors would love to see you people work yourself to death and then replace you. After all some of them get to play golf with Ed Hill. 
I am so glad i am retired and no longer have to deal with people like the ones on this thread. The union will be destroyed from the inside-out. People like sideworker will over time agree to give everything away to the contractors. Wages and benefits will go down. Contactors will get to play golf more with Ed Hill.
Call me a slug or whatever makes you feel better.
Labor is going downhill fast. One day it will get to the workers once again revolting against the contractors.
All you really really fast guys, I have worked at Embassies overseas where hey paid their local electricians $50.00 a month. Do you think for a second these contractors would keep you fast guys if they could get this cheap labor.
Contractors for the most part are greedy and care nothing about you people. Contractors for the most part think there is something special about them and that they deserve to make alot of money.
In a few years you people will give away everything the IBEW has fought over and in some cases died for. Then you will complain about lack of benefits and wages and blame everything on someone else and never look in the mirrow


----------



## Frasbee

It's like a perfectly balanced game of tug-o-war.


----------



## brian john

Work steady, be productive and make money for all parties involved. No one can work at 100% for 100% of the time.


----------



## SideWorker

retired 7373 said:


> People like sideworker will over time agree to give everything away to the contractors.


Show me one thing that I said that would support your theory. Please point out one single concession that I promoted, or any instance in which I insinuated one.


> Contractors for the most part are greedy and care nothing about you people.


 So what? I get paid *VERY* well to make the contractor money, that's my job. I do my job, they pay me. How could it get any easier? So where does your worries about the contractor being greedy or not caring about me come into play?



> Contractors for the most part think there is something special about them and that they deserve to make alot of money.


Are you trying to say that they don't deserve to make a lot of money?

Where do you live and what is your journeyman rate? Are you trying to say that it's too low? 


retired 7373 said:


> In a few years you people will give away everything the IBEW has fought over and in some cases died for. Then you will complain about lack of benefits and wages and blame everything on someone else and never look in the mirrow


Once again, who said anything about giving anything away? What are these fictitious people you are talking about giving away?


----------



## Speedy Petey

retired 7373 said:


> Most of these contractors would love to see you people work yourself to death and then replace you.
> .....
> I am so glad i am retired and no longer have to deal with people like the ones on this thread. The union will be destroyed from the inside-out. People like sideworker will over time agree to give everything away to the contractors. Wages and benefits will go down. Contactors will get to play golf more with Ed Hill.
> .....
> Contractors for the most part are greedy and care nothing about you people.
> .....
> Contractors for the most part think there is something special about them and that they deserve to make alot of money.
> ....


Remind me why you were ever in a trades...... :001_huh: :whistling2:

You obviously despise contractors and think everyone of them is a low life money grubbing blood sucker (my words, not yours). So then tell us what your purpose was in the trades? Why would you even want to be around anyone like this?

I have to say, I don't know anybody like you describe. 
Maybe it is a big city thing? Who the hell knows.


----------



## SideWorker

Speedy Petey said:


> You obviously despise contractors and think everyone of them is a low life money grubbing blood sucker (my words, not yours).


The thing I don't understand is even if the above is true, why does it matter to him? He is union, he is (was) getting the top rate automatically. It's not like he was in the contractors office begging for a few cents extra to buy another packet of Ramen.


----------



## brian john

I do not know Retired, He may be the best of the best BUT


In my experience the FEW IBEW members I have met like him are the ones that are the bottom of the barrel, whining, pissing, moaning and groaning about "THE MAN" taking advantage of them, how they are getting screwed. And end up being bitter old grouches.

NOT SAYING THAT IS THE CASE BUT if the shoe fits!


----------



## Boneshaker

As you read this please keep in mind that this is the opinion of a 21 year union member that has never worked a day non-union in my life. Those who work in open shops, (nothing wrong with this, we all have to eat) must realize that even though you may not be a dues paying card carrying member of a labor union you benefit every day you get up and go to work. Without labor unions to fight for the workers rights we would not have the forty hour work week, or weekends, or health benefits and retirement funds would look a whole lot different. Without the couragous men and women who stood up to the tyranical robber barrons of the late 1800's and earyl 1900's what would the railway industry or the mining industry look like today? In my opinion one of the biggest things the unions brought to the trades is safety. If you are working for an open shop and you are getting treated well and with respect, that is great. But you must remember that is not the case for everyone. Lots of people do not like the unions until they need one. Just remember a rising tide lifts all ships. If the union wages & benefits rise than this forces the open shops to raise there wages in order to keep there employees.


----------



## drsparky

Well said Boneshaker.


----------



## Kevin J

brian john said:


> Work steady, be productive and make money for all parties involved. No one can work at 100% for 100% of the time.



Couldn't have said it better myself. :thumbsup:


----------



## knowshorts

Boneshaker said:


> Without labor unions to fight for the workers rights we would not have the forty hour work week, or weekends, or health benefits and retirement funds would look a whole lot different.....In my opinion one of the biggest things the unions brought to the trades is safety.


You won't find to many who would argue this. Yet this was all done in the past and I doubt it will ever reverse.



> Just remember a rising tide lifts all ships.


If you are referring to the tide as the IBEW, then why does it seem like the tide is lowering and all the non-union ships are rising?



> If the union wages & benefits rise than this forces the open shops to raise there wages in order to keep there employees.


Not true. For the most part, employers will pay what they think you are worth. If you are stoked because your pulling $30 an hour, contractor is really stoked, because they know you are actually worth $35. They may act upset that they have to give you a raise, but if you get it, it's all good.


----------



## miller_elex

retired 7373 said:


> Petey- Sideworker-Anyone-


Very well said, Thank You for that post.

Where the hell is Peter D? Did he get organized and change his alias to Sideworker?? These fellas are two peas in a pod I tell yah!

P.S. Sideworker, even if you are 30% more productive than a good JW, if you're an asshole nobody will work for you and they might even fiddle fart when you're not watching. Not every sparky in the USA eats, sleeps, breathes, and sh|ts their career like MD Shank and Brian John. Most all of us want to go somewhere away from the wife, be treated with respect by our employers, work hard, then go home, end of story. 

If you are a real people person, who can wrap their head around the plans, you will go very very far. 

Those guys you bad-mouth, well, the other guys who work hard are paying attention, they think when they aren't around, you're probably badmouthing them too. Its pretty easy to judge someone's character by whether they are critical of fat people, ugly people, stupid people, etc.


----------



## SideWorker

I'm not going to reply to the rest of your post because it's been discussed over and over and you're just jumping on the union slacker bandwagon. However:


miller_elex said:


> Its pretty easy to judge someone's character by whether they are critical of fat people, ugly people, stupid people, etc.


Why out of that list of types of people did you not mention "slow, ****ty worker"? Because that is the ONLY type of person I have judged.


----------



## brian john

Boneshaker said:


> As you read this please keep in mind that this is the opinion of a 21 year union member that has never worked a day non-union in my life. Those who work in open shops, (nothing wrong with this, we all have to eat) must realize that even though you may not be a dues paying card carrying member of a labor union you benefit every day you get up and go to work. Without labor unions to fight for the workers rights we would not have the forty hour work week, or weekends, or health benefits and retirement funds would look a whole lot different. Without the couragous men and women who stood up to the tyranical robber barrons of the late 1800's and earyl 1900's


 
Yeah and they gave us OBAMA, I'll give back the benefits if you take him back. Oh and working men your taxes will increase under his regime.




> If the union wages & benefits rise than this forces the open shops to raise there wages in order to keep there employees.


And food goes up and gas goes up and rent and taxes and everything else.




> what would the railway industry or the mining industry look like today?


Profitable??????? IN lieu of Amtrak where it cost US the tax payers $315.00 per passenger traveling from LA to Gainesville FL.

GOOD DEAL?




> In my opinion one of the biggest things the unions brought to the trades is safety. If you are working for an open shop and you are getting treated well and with respect, that is great. But you must remember that is not the case for everyone. Lots of people do not like the unions until they need one. Just remember a rising tide lifts all ships.


 [/quote]

And that is the propaganda you were taught in apprenticeship school. Good use of educational time.

WE would be were we are, maybe times would have been harder, but we might still have a steel industry, automotive, rail. WHAT NEXT?


----------



## Boneshaker

Not sure how to put a particular quote in, but would like to respond to last post by Brian James. 

All valid opinions by you, and I would like to be able to sit down, drink a beer and discuss our difference of opinions. However I take great execption to the idea that safety in the work place is just propoganda spewed forth by labor unions. Go back and research the life expectancy of a coal miner or a person working to build the rail system in this country, or even the safety records of people that worked to build the bridges and dams or woked in manufacturing facilities. You will notice that once they organized and became a single voice with a bit of power they were able to force change which over time resulted in safer/better working conditions. Both of which you and I reap the benifits of every day. Are labor unions perfect? I am in no way saying they are, but they certainly have a place in todays society. With out them helping to balance things out our work environments would look more like 1909 as opposed to 2009.
This is a fact, because safety costs money, and unless the men with the purse strings are forced to care about your safety he most lilkely won't. Take a look at the safety records of say China or Mexico, they have next to no safety and it shows in the worker fatality rates.


----------



## brian john

Boneshaker said:


> Not sure how to put a particular quote in, but would like to respond to last post by Brian John.
> 
> . However I take great exception to the idea that safety in the work place is just propaganda spewed forth by labor unions.
> 
> 
> 
> I do not necessarily disagree with this. BUT Insurance companies, lawyers and a litigious society contributed greatly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Go back and research the life expectancy of a coal miner or a person working to build the rail system in this country, or even the safety records of people that worked to build the bridges and dams or worked in manufacturing facilities. You will notice that once they organized and became a single voice with a bit of power they were able to force change which over time resulted in safer/better working conditions. Both of which you and I reap the benefits of every day. Are labor unions perfect? I am in no way saying they are, but they certainly have a place in today's society. With out them helping to balance things out our work environments would look more like 1909 as opposed to 2009.
> This is a fact, because safety costs money, and unless the men with the purse strings are forced to care about your safety he most lilkely won't. Take a look at the safety records of say China or Mexico, they have next to no safety and it shows in the worker fatality rates.
> 
> 
> 
> Let's assume all those workers had lived where would we be with over population and global warming with all the extra off spring.:whistling2:
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## brian john

knowshorts said:


> If you are referring to the tide as the IBEW, then why does it seem like the tide is lowering and all the non-union ships are rising?
> 
> .


\


Because for years the unions have done nothing but shoot themselves in the foot at every turn.

Supporting lock step the Democrats, striking in an unpopular strike, acting like fools on TV when the camera crews show up at strike sites, picketing and harassing the public at sites of pickets, damaging equipment while on strike (Washington Post printers strike). Trashing open shop men, calling them names and worse. Need I go on.


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## arelec

Can't we all just be friends. We are all electricians here. It is a personal choice which way you want to go. The OP just wanted some "educated" pros and cons, not a "lets bash each others desicions" thread. In my opinion, at least in my area, the union's only real benefit is the pension. The wages and insurance are about equal. The non-union shops give vacation, paid holidays and other small benefits that can really add up. I know it's a crazy thing that we just can't get along. My problem with the union is the BA harrasing us trying to get us to go union when there are literally 100s of guys sitting right now. If the union is so great why do you need to go "recruiting". You should be happy you are way better educated and paid than us low life non-union guys and keep it a secret. Oh yeah more people in the union more money for the corrupt leaders of said union even when ther is no work. now thats a business. Have my employees pay me so they can sit at home. lol I have never worked union but I have a nephew that is. He is on a few boards and whether you beleive it or not, unions know they need to make changes in order to compete with the non-union shops, even with there apprentice programs. It is too bad that the unions have to do the "salting" thing because I know some really good electricians that I would love to hire while they are laid off from the union, but it is way too big of a risk and unfortanately not worth it. Sorry I couldn't help joining in on the fun.


----------



## Bob Badger

arelec said:


> Can't we all just be friends.


I think that has been clearly answered.:no:


----------



## westernexplorer

arelec said:


> Can't we all just be friends. We are all electricians here. It is a personal choice which way you want to go. The OP just wanted some "educated" pros and cons, not a "lets bash each others desicions" thread. In my opinion, at least in my area, the union's only real benefit is the pension. The wages and insurance are about equal. The non-union shops give vacation, paid holidays and other small benefits that can really add up. I know it's a crazy thing that we just can't get along. My problem with the union is the BA harrasing us trying to get us to go union when there are literally 100s of guys sitting right now. If the union is so great why do you need to go "recruiting". You should be happy you are way better educated and paid than us low life non-union guys and keep it a secret. Oh yeah more people in the union more money for the corrupt leaders of said union even when ther is no work. now thats a business. Have my employees pay me so they can sit at home. lol I have never worked union but I have a nephew that is. He is on a few boards and whether you beleive it or not, unions know they need to make changes in order to compete with the non-union shops, even with there apprentice programs. It is too bad that the unions have to do the "salting" thing because I know some really good electricians that I would love to hire while they are laid off from the union, but it is way too big of a risk and unfortanately not worth it. Sorry I couldn't help joining in on the fun.


When the Union Business Agent comes around to talk, send him to your employer. I'm one of the few who doesn't believe in bottom up organizing. Tell the BA, if you can't sell my employer on the idea, why should I buy it.


----------



## arelec

westernexplorer said:


> When the Union Business Agent comes around to talk, send him to your employer. I'm one of the few who doesn't believe in bottom up organizing. Tell the BA, if you can't sell my employer on the idea, why should I buy it.


We do. He doesn't like my boss. And he never stops bothering us. Hell, the guy has a list wiyh our names and lisence plate numbers. This guy borders on stalker.


----------



## brian john

arelec said:


> We do. He doesn't like my boss. And he never stops bothering us. Hell, the guy has a list wiyh our names and lisence plate numbers. This guy borders on stalker.


LIke a salesman pushing an unwanted product, he is doing his job somewhere he will get few members. A few here a few there and he goes home feeling he is making a difference.


----------



## Boneshaker

It's no more fair to lump all unions into one group than it is to lump all non-union companies into a single group. For instance an earlier post made reference to striking in unpopular strikes, acting the fool on tv and name calling. I belong to a trades union in Maine that bargains under a no strike clause, if an agreement can not be reached between management and labor both sides are bound by arbitration. This eliminates all the messy strikes and tom foolery on tv that you speak of. It eliminates job stoppages and it keeps the negotiating process out of the news papers. As far as the name calling and such, it seems to me that most of the sarcastic remarks and underhanded comments on this post are from the open shop side. So perhaps you need to clean up your own house before you start to worry about others. I don't know where you gentlemen are from that you run into these negative situations on such a frequent basis, but I asure you up here in Maine that is not how we treat each other. Whether you are union or non-union is a matter of personal choice, the competition should not be between the labor, the competition should be between management in the bidding process. I do hope that there is enough work to keep us all employed and prosperous, I don't however agree with the mud slinging or arrow throwing from either side. Anyone that would like to have a serious two sided discussion about the pros and cons between union and non-union I am all for that, all the sarcasm and misinformation should probably be left out of it.

That's my opinion, we welcome yours.


----------



## arelec

Boneshaker said:


> It's no more fair to lump all unions into one group than it is to lump all non-union companies into a single group. For instance an earlier post made reference to striking in unpopular strikes, acting the fool on tv and name calling. I belong to a trades union in Maine that bargains under a no strike clause, if an agreement can not be reached between management and labor both sides are bound by arbitration. This eliminates all the messy strikes and tom foolery on tv that you speak of. It eliminates job stoppages and it keeps the negotiating process out of the news papers. As far as the name calling and such, it seems to me that most of the sarcastic remarks and underhanded comments on this post are from the open shop side. So perhaps you need to clean up your own house before you start to worry about others. I don't know where you gentlemen are from that you run into these negative situations on such a frequent basis, but I asure you up here in Maine that is not how we treat each other. Whether you are union or non-union is a matter of personal choice, the competition should not be between the labor, the competition should be between management in the bidding process. I do hope that there is enough work to keep us all employed and prosperous, I don't however agree with the mud slinging or arrow throwing from either side. Anyone that would like to have a serious two sided discussion about the pros and cons between union and non-union I am all for that, all the sarcasm and misinformation should probably be left out of it.
> 
> That's my opinion, we welcome yours.


 
I agree with you totally. It is always easier to make others look bad than make yourself look good. We are all electricians here and should be friends. I am sorry for what posted.


----------



## brian john

Boneshaker said:


> *It's no more fair to lump all unions into one group than it is to lump all non-union companies into a single group. For instance an earlier post made reference to striking in unpopular strikes, acting the fool on tv and name calling.*. And then you say
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As far as the name calling and such, it seems to me that most of the sarcastic remarks and underhanded comments on this post are from the open shop side. So perhaps you need to clean up your own house before you start to worry about others.
> 
> 
> 
> I have NEVER been on an open shop job where there are union contractors where the open shop men caused issues for the union shops. I have been on mostly union jobs where the union members caused issues for the open shop men.
> 
> I have NEVER called a union man bad name unprovoked I have been called scab, and rat and various other names over the years. AND SOME OF THIS WHILE BEING A UNION CONTRACTOR.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know where you gentlemen are from that you run into these negative situations on such a frequent basis, but I asure you up here in Maine that is not how we treat each other.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Try working in New York City, or Delware, Philidelphia, Baltimore, Washington DC (to some extent) and Richmond for starters. I mean Maine; hardly in the USA:laughing:
> 
> Ask our New York City "BROTHERS if they have a big rat they take out with them to open shop jobs.
> Open shops NEVER salt union jobs.
> Open shops never picket open shops
> Open shops do not have derogatory names for union shops.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Whether you are union or non-union is a matter of personal choice, the competition should not be between the labor, the competition should be between management in the bidding process. I do hope that there is enough work to keep us all employed and prosperous, I don't however agree with the mud slinging or arrow throwing from either side. Anyone that would like to have a serious two sided discussion about the pros and cons between union and non-union I am all for that, all the sarcasm and misinformation should probably be left out of it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> and this we agree on.
Click to expand...


----------



## Bob Badger

Boneshaker said:


> As far as the name calling and such, it seems to me that most of the sarcastic remarks and underhanded comments on this post are from the open shop side. So perhaps you need to clean up your own house before you start to worry about others.



When was the last time you saw a bunch of open shop guys show up at a union site and picket, try to intimidate, call names, set up blow up rat dolls, flatten tires, key cars, vandalize the job, try to stop the job etc, etc. I have seen all of that at different construction sites I have worked.

And no, I do not have any proof that the vandalism was in fact done by union members, if might just be a coincidence that it happened when pickets where going on.


If you have not seen the inflatable rat that the union will bring along here is one.










Merit shop guys go to work and mind their own business, many unions feel the need to go and act like real jerks at non union sites.


----------



## Boneshaker

As I said earlier, it is not fair to lump all unions and union members into the same group. I would absolutely be ashamed to admit to being involved with any actions like the ones you have explained. I hope you understand that these actions display a character flaw or a lack of education in the people involved and not the entire body of every union. I have never had any issues with open shop members on any projects that I have ever been on, they do there job and we do ours. My point about the negative attitudes from the open shop side has been derived solely from the sarcastic tone of several post under this topic. I can asure you that there are plenty of profesional gentlemen working on both sides of this issue. I am aware of your view of the cons to being union, but what is on your list of pros to being non-union. I would be happy to list my views to the pros of being union if anyone were interested.


----------



## user4818

Boneshaker said:


> My point about the negative attitudes from the open shop side has been derived solely from the sarcastic tone of several post under this topic.


I'd say it comes from the activity that Bob mentioned in his post. It's also a fact that the union will never be able to live down their past and will be forever stuck with the stigma of their bully tactics. So it's hardly surprising that "negative attitudes" about unions are still alive and well.


----------



## Bob Badger

Boneshaker I do not believe for a moment that every union member or every union is the same, I have only worked in MA, RI and CT.

Often one on one I have no problem at all with the union members, but it is a fact that often we (non-union guys) are treated like we are the scum at the bottom of the porta john by the 'group' and this treatment in my experience is encouraged by the hall.


----------



## Boneshaker

Peter, do you really think that it is constructive to perperuate the stereotype of the unions of years past? Do not punish me for the sins of my fathers.


----------



## user4818

Boneshaker said:


> Peter, do you really think that it is constructive to perperuate the stereotype of the unions of years past? Do not punish me for the sins of my fathers.


I live in the same general area as Bob and I echo his comments. 

As for your question of it being constructive or not...yes, I believe it is as long as union thuggery goes on, whether or not you are personally involved in it.


----------



## Boneshaker

Bob Badger, I do not deny that these things happen. It is embarassing to say the least. It is my hope that things are slowly changing for the better. I have held several positions in my local union in the past and our stance has always been education over intimidation.


----------



## brian john

Boneshaker said:


> Bob Badger, I do not deny that these things happen. It is embarassing to say the least. It is my hope that things are slowly changing for the better. I have held several positions in my local union in the past and our stance has always been education over intimidation.


Many locals seem to be changing, as you stated education (selling the benefits). Not cramming them down someone throats will win over more men.


----------



## 480sparky

Boneshaker said:


> Bob Badger, I do not deny that these things happen. It is embarassing to say the least. It is my hope that things are slowly changing for the better. I have held several positions in my local union in the past and our stance has always been education over intimidation.


 
I fund the use of the word 'slowly' interesting.


----------



## user4818

480sparky said:


> I fund the use of the word 'slowly' interesting.



How much are you going to fund it?


----------



## Boneshaker

I am curious, why do you find this interesting?


----------



## 480sparky

Boneshaker said:


> I am curious, why do you find this interesting?


Why you want things to _slowly_ improve.


----------



## Bob Badger

Boneshaker said:


> Do not punish me for the sins of my fathers.



I do understand your point but you chose to join a group that in many areas has done a lot of things to create bad feelings and just because you may be innocent of any of it that will not erase the past or how I feel about my past treatment.

It sounds like your in a good group and that is great.


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## drsparky

480sparky said:


> Why you want things to _slowly_ improve.


This climate of hostility and mistrust did not happen overnight, I doubt that attitudes will change for the better at a rapid rate, it will take time.


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## 480sparky

drsparky said:


> This climate of hostility and mistrust did not happen overnight, I doubt that attitudes will change for the better at a rapid rate, it will take time.


True, but why simply capitulate to a slow and agonizing change? Why not 'take the bull by the horns', so to speak, and get proactive instead?


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## brian john

480sparky said:


> True, but why simply capitulate to a slow and agonizing change? Why not 'take the bull by the horns', so to speak, and get proactive instead?


Because there is a large group of members that like the status quo.


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## Boneshaker

I do not want things to change slowly, I am very proactive in these matters. Drsparky is absolutely right when he says the negative attitudes did not arise overnight and will not change overnight. I hope someday you will soften your stance and understand that we are not all the same.


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## 480sparky

Boneshaker said:


> I do not want things to change slowly, I am very proactive in these matters. Drsparky is absolutely right when he says the negative attitudes did not arise overnight and will not change overnight. I hope someday you will soften your stance and understand that we are not all the same.


"My stance" is that all union members are the same?????


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## Boneshaker

I don't know, is it? It just seems like you have a deep rooted mistrust for all that is union. Am I wrong?


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## 480sparky

Boneshaker said:


> I don't know, is it? It just seems like you have a deep rooted mistrust for all that is union. Am I wrong?


I don't mistrust them. It's just not my cup of tea.


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## Boneshaker

That's cool, it's not for everyone. :thumbsup:


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## drsparky

480sparky said:


> I don't mistrust them. It's just not my cup of tea.


I prefer coffee, tea if I have a cold.


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## LU595 Wife

*with jobs being scarce...*

The local union is supposed to be helping its members, not hurting them. Yet, you get fined for actively looking for work or doing side jobs (assuming they find out). On the flip side, open shops don't want to hire you for fear you're really there to salt. With the economy in its current condition, being an out of work union electrician means damned if you do, damned if you don't. It's frustrating!


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## Boneshaker

LU595 wife, hang in there. I know it gets frustrating when the work situation is the way it is. The work in the trades has always been cyclical. In my experience most union halls don't have an issue with doing side work as long as thay know about it and you are not in competition with a union contractor. Hang tough, things are bound to get better.


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## LU595 Wife

Boneshaker - Thanks for the encouragement. Unfortunately, with the economy tanking as it is (worst since WWII they say), any side job is competition with a union shop. Yes, I agree some locals allow side jobs and some even encourage seeking your own employment during tough times - but my husband's local is one of the stricter ones and doesn't look kindly on taking work outside the union. Ah well - at this point it can only get better, right?


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## LU595 Wife

And I guess a lot of our frustration is a result of all the rule changes the unions are making during/because of the recession. Whereas our local allowed early retirement with full pension (90 and out) at 55, now you are required to work to 62 before getting full pension. Sure, you can take your pension prior to that, but at 85%... for the rest of your life (unlike before when you'd at least get a percentage of the missing 15% added back in incrementally over the next years until you reach 62 and 100%). I dunno... it just seems like they're working less _for_ us than they used to.


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## Boneshaker

Anytime you work towards a particular goal and the rules get changed halfway through the game it can certainly appear as if you may be getting treated inappropriatly. However I would like to think that changes like the ones you have described are for the greater good of the local and the survival of the pension fund in question. I know they are just words but please keep in mind that you and you husband are not alone in this down turn in the economy. Hopefully he is able to see his way through this mess and come out stronger on the other side. Try to stay positive.


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## LU595 Wife

Boneshaker - Again, thank you for the wise encouragement. Your feedback and positive perspective are what help those of us bottoming out take a step back and try to see things through someone else's view. Thanks!


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## Centaur1

reply to joe mommma. I'm also a union member and in my hall they went crazy a few years back with organizing. Our management brought in a bunch of guys who really weren't qualified to read a stick rule let a lone do electrical work. Any way many of these members were made Journeyman, and gave the local a bad reputation. asa result I have been out of work almost a year now and am looking inoto a career flipping burgers at Mcdonald's.


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## brian john

LU595 Wife said:


> And I guess a lot of our frustration is a result of all the rule changes the unions are making during/because of the recession. Whereas our local allowed early retirement with full pension (90 and out) at 55, now you are required to work to 62 before getting full pension. Sure, you can take your pension prior to that, but at 85%... for the rest of your life (unlike before when you'd at least get a percentage of the missing 15% added back in incrementally over the next years until you reach 62 and 100%). I dunno... it just seems like they're working less _for_ us than they used to.


God Bless America freedom of choice and the right to associate with who you want, till you join your Local?

What a narrow minded idiotic way to approach life.


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## RIVETER

*Union non-union*



drsparky said:


> This climate of hostility and mistrust did not happen overnight, I doubt that attitudes will change for the better at a rapid rate, it will take time.


There really should not be as climate of mistrust and hostility. It should just be , I am here to work, give me the tools and the materials necessary and I WILL GET IT DONE.
When companies get away from the closeness to their workforce, due to stockholders, and the like, distrust CAN set in even if there is no reason for it. 
I never go to work thinking that I will screw the company today. I never hold the COMPANY responsible for some mishaps created by a mid-level guy. I just deal with it and keep trying to do my job.
And I do not make it my daily rant about (THOSE NON-UNION GUYS). I wish we could all be together with our mutual respect, coupled with the respect of our company because THEY KNOW that they would not be in business without us.


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## LJSMITH1

RIVETER said:


> There really should not be as climate of mistrust and hostility. It should just be , I am here to work, give me the tools and the materials necessary and I WILL GET IT DONE.
> When companies get away from the closeness to their workforce, due to stockholders, and the like, distrust CAN set in even if there is no reason for it.
> I never go to work thinking that I will screw the company today. I never hold the COMPANY responsible for some mishaps created by a mid-level guy. I just deal with it and keep trying to do my job.
> And I do not make it my daily rant about (THOSE NON-UNION GUYS). I wish we could all be together with our mutual respect, coupled with the respect of our company because THEY KNOW that they would not be in business without us.


And likewise you would not have a job without the company and those pesky shareholders. Seems to me that its a symbiotic relationship, right?


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## RIVETER

*Union?non-union*



LJSMITH1 said:


> And likewise you would not have a job without the company and those pesky shareholders. Seems to me that its a symbiotic relationship, right?


What is SYMBIOTIC? Is that a liberation front, or something?


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## brian john

From Dictionary.com

sym⋅bi⋅o⋅sis  [sim-bee-oh-sis, -bahy-] Show IPA
Use symbiotic in a Sentence
–noun, plural -ses  [-seez] Show IPA .
1.	Biology.
a.	the living together of two dissimilar organisms, as in mutualism, commensalism, amensalism, or parasitism.
b.	(formerly) mutualism (def. 1).
2.	Psychiatry. a relationship between two people in which each person is dependent upon and receives reinforcement, whether beneficial or detrimental, from the other.
3.	Psychoanalysis. the relationship between an infant and its mother in which the infant is dependent on the mother both physically and emotionally.
4.	any interdependent or mutually beneficial relationship between two persons, groups, etc.


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## LJSMITH1

brian john said:


> From Dictionary.com
> 
> sym⋅bi⋅o⋅sis  [sim-bee-oh-sis, -bahy-] Show IPA
> Use symbiotic in a Sentence
> –noun, plural -ses  [-seez] Show IPA .
> 1. Biology.
> a. the living together of two dissimilar organisms, as in mutualism, commensalism, amensalism, or parasitism.
> b. (formerly) mutualism (def. 1).
> 2. Psychiatry. a relationship between two people in which each person is dependent upon and receives reinforcement, whether beneficial or detrimental, from the other.
> 3. Psychoanalysis. the relationship between an infant and its mother in which the infant is dependent on the mother both physically and emotionally.
> 4. any interdependent or mutually beneficial relationship between two persons, groups, etc.


Wow...you are a human dictionary too? So Talented!:thumbsup:


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## Savage16

Unions helped to give americans the safety, fairness, and wages americans have today, I am proud to be part of such an organization where I have a voice and the benefits to set me up for life, say what you will about how sh**** the union is, but in the end you owe a lot to those early unions that shaped the country and made it a great place to work and support your families


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## Bob Badger

Savage16 said:


> Unions helped to give americans the safety, fairness, and wages americans have today, I am proud to be part of such an organization where I have a voice and the benefits to set me up for life, say what you will about how sh**** the union is, but in the end you owe a lot to those early unions that shaped the country and made it a great place to work and support your families


I agree that back in the day the unions did a lot of good and fought for great causes. 

That does not give them a free pass now to act like greedy self centered SOBs.


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## electricmanscott

Bob Badger said:


> I agree that back in the day the unions did a lot of good and fought for great causes.
> 
> That does not give them a free pass now to act like greedy self centered SOBs.


I'm tellin' Noah you're acting up again. :laughing:


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## Bob Badger

electricmanscott said:


> I'm tellin' Noah you're acting up again. :laughing:


Bring it on, first I will tackle Noah and than it's time to go after Moses. :laughing:


Does anyone else find the name of this thread amusing?



> Union or Non-Union? (only constructive thoughts please)


Constructive???? :laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## Savage16

The union is greedy thats your arguement? even if the union is greedy they more than take care of the workers it represents, that doesnt include all the extra incentives that come with being a union member, check out www.unionplus.com even with all the so called union greed you grumble about, the union worker can still come out on top and better off than non-union, work hard, respect the men before you and your bosses, be on time everyday and bring a good work ethic when you do and you will stay employed in the union and will live better than MOST


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## slickvic277

This thread is old.


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## running dummy

yea whats up with all the resurrected threads lately? people are getting that bored?!! ha ha


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## Bob Badger

Savage16 said:


> The union is greedy thats your arguement?


Yes in many case it is.

They have gone for fighting for noble cause to fighting for things like 'work 7 get paid for 8' and protecting the incompetent workers as well as the good ones etc. 




> even if the union is greedy they more than take care of the workers it represents, that doesnt include all the extra incentives that come with being a union member, check out


Exactly, they do not care at all about _workers_, only members. That is pretty much the definition of self centered.





> even with all the so called union greed you grumble about, the union worker can still come out on top and better off than non-union, work hard, respect the men before you and your bosses, be on time everyday and bring a good work ethic when you do and you will stay employed in the union and will live better than MOST


Or be a one of the union slugs and still get all those good things. 

Don't waste my time telling me that there are no lazy union members that are able to stay in. 

Non merit shops fire the lazy or simply pay them the peanuts they are worth.


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## Bob Badger

slickvic277 said:


> This thread is old.


You are right, sorry I did not notice that.

Maybe Pete will close it up.


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## Brother Noah1

Bob Badger said:


> Bring it on, first I will tackle Noah and than it's time to go after Moses. :laughing:
> 
> 
> Does anyone else find the name of this thread amusing?
> 
> 
> 
> Constructive???? :laughing::laughing::laughing:


 What Bob has omitted was the Christmas and Birthday cards he sends every year and electricmanscott just made an offer for the family and I come over for breakfast(I just hope they know how to cook grits) 
I do appreciate the laugh,I come home from building a weld shop for the apprentice of local#477/440 to find this humor. Oh yeah Bob I think I have already told you that you would much rather jack off a wildcat in a phone booth with a handful of sandspurs than to mess with me.


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## Savage16

ok so yeah they take care of its members, where as a non union shop may be just as greedy and not take care of its employees at all, at least when you become a union member you know the situation your getting into ahead of time, and by no means is either situation perfect, sure there are lazy union members, but the same thing flies for the non union shops, the majority of the members that get put on the bench are lazy, come in every day on time, do your job, show some respect and it is very well possible to work union and live better, your constant jabber about how shoddy unions are is rediculous, were you ever union?


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## slickvic277

Bob Badger said:


> You are right, sorry I did not notice that.
> 
> Maybe Pete will close it up.



I like to argue as much as the next guy but let's start new arguments:thumbup:


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## Bob Badger

slickvic277 said:


> I like to argue as much as the next guy but let's start new arguments:thumbup:



:thumbup: Pretty much.


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## joebell

Totally off topic ......I'm digging Bobs avatar, nothing like Johnnie Gage and Roy DeSoto from Squad 51, It brings me back to a simpiler time :laughing:


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## electricmanscott

joebell said:


> Totally off topic ......I'm digging Bobs avatar, nothing like Johnnie Gage and Roy DeSoto from Squad 51, It brings me back to a simpiler time :laughing:


Yeah, They're on daily at 4 on RTV. Followed by Adam 12. Was everybody so damn dorky in the '70s?


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## joebell

electricmanscott said:


> Yeah, They're on daily at 4 on RTV. Followed by Adam 12. Was everybody so damn dorky in the '70s?


Come on now those are classic television shows. I'll have to check them out if I can get home early enough.


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## electricmanscott

Don't get me wrong I love the shows. My kids love them too. They love to make fun of them. :thumbsup:


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## Bob Badger

electricmanscott said:


> Don't get me wrong I love the shows. My kids love them too. They love to make fun of them. :thumbsup:


I try to get my 9 and 11 year old girls to watch the stooges with me and they just look at me exactly like my wife does when I watch Tommy Boy for the 45th time, the look that says _'What the F is wrong with you?'_ :laughing:


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## joebell

Bob Badger said:


> I try to get my 9 and 11 year old girls to watch the stooges with me and they just look at me exactly like my wife does when I watch Tommy Boy for the 45th time, the look that says _'What the F is wrong with you?'_ :laughing:


 
The problem there Bob is that they are girls. My wife and daughter want nothing to do with the stooges but my 2 boys are a different story. We love the New Years day Stooges marathons.:thumbup:


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## Bob Badger

joebell said:


> The problem there Bob is that they are girls.


Yeah I know. :laughing:


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## Speedy Petey

Well, even though this thread was old it still had some merit. Too bad it turn into the same old argument and way OT banter.


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