# lockout for dishwasher and waterheater



## rbj (Oct 23, 2007)

*AHJ counter...*



lbt con said:


> Which code covers the need for a lock out on a dishwasher and on a water heater? Is it 422.31B? Never had to install a lockout on a dishwasher befor, first time i got giged on it.


 Appliance pigtail-receptacle for Dishwasher and 230V 30A rated 2 pole at H2O heater will eliminate the 422.31B requirement.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Um all applicances require a disconnect. For the d/w we mount a switch under the cabinet with the sink. On water heaters we mount non fuseable pull out on the wall next to it. Are you serious? You've never had to install disconnects?


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

rbj said:


> Appliance pigtail-receptacle for Dishwasher and 230V 30A rated 2 pole at H2O heater will eliminate the 422.31B requirement.



It is illegal to add a cord to a dishwasher if the d/w is not listed for a cord to be added. If it comes with a cord then it is legal to plug into a receptacle and the cord qualifys for a disconnect. 

The breaker only qualifys as a disconnect if it is witin 50ft and in sight of the water heater.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> It is illegal to add a cord to a dishwasher if the d/w is not listed for a cord to be added. .


More than that, you cannot simply put a 'Whirlpool' cord on a GE dishwasher.

You have to use a cord that is a listed accessory for that particular DW.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> More than that, you cannot simply put a 'Whirlpool' cord on a GE dishwasher.
> 
> You have to use a cord that is a listed accessory for that particular DW.




I've never seen a dishwasher that had a cord as an "accessory" but I'm sure they are out there.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

jwjrw said:


> Um all applicances require a disconnect. For the d/w we mount a switch under the cabinet with the sink. On water heaters we mount non fuseable pull out on the wall next to it. Are you serious? You've never had to install disconnects?


NOTHING more condescending then starting a reply with "Um" 



Bob Badger said:


> More than that, you cannot simply put a 'Whirlpool' cord on a GE dishwasher.
> 
> You have to use a cord that is a listed accessory for that particular DW.


True Bob, but I have yet to meet an inspector smart enough to know this. :no:

Until that day comes I'll be installing "acme" cords knowing full well that the disahwasher can't read the name on the cord and won't be offended :thumbsup:


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

electricmanscott said:


> NOTHING more condescending then starting a reply with "Um"
> 
> 
> 
> ...





I would think any licensed electrician would know appliances need a disconnect you pathetic jackass. Why waste a receptacle and buy a cord when you could hard wire and be legal?


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

electricmanscott said:


> NOTHING more condescending then starting a reply with "Um"


Um, have you read your own posts?

Um your as condescending as the rest of us. :laughing:





> True Bob, but I have yet to meet an inspector smart enough to know this. :no:


Just pointing out the rules, what we all do with that info is up to us.


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## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> I would think any licensed electrician would know appliances need a disconnect you pathetic jackass. Why waste a receptacle and buy a cord when you could hard wire and be legal?


I generally stay out of this crap but since you're getting all wound up I would think any licensed electrician would know that a light fixture draws the same amount of power no matter what voltage it's wired for. :thumbsup:


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Vintage Sounds said:


> I generally stay out of this crap but since you're getting all wound up I would think any licensed electrician would know that a light fixture draws the same amount of power no matter what voltage it's wired for. :thumbsup:




Who's wound up? Yep I had forgot watts were watts. I did know the answer because I told the customer no but I did want to make sure I was thinking correctly. And yea it probably is best you stay out of it. It's between me and the pathetic jackass that doesn't believe in god.:thumbsup:


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Vintage Sounds said:


> I generally stay out of this crap but since you're getting all wound up I would think any licensed electrician would know that a light fixture draws the same amount of power no matter what voltage it's wired for. :thumbsup:






The op said he had never been tagged on it before.....thats what I found hard to believe.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Vintage Sounds said:


> I generally stay out of this crap but since you're getting all wound up I would think any licensed electrician would know that a light fixture draws the same amount of power no matter what voltage it's wired for. :thumbsup:




http://www.electriciantalk.com/f2/stray-currents-16725-post289286/#post289286

The same can be said about you. No one knows everything. A lot of times I get confused on things I don't do often. A lot of people do. But to be an electrician and have never installed disconnects AND NEVER been turned down was a little hard to believe. Its all good. I'm really a troll anyway...:laughing:


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

jwjrw said:


> I would think any licensed electrician would know appliances need a disconnect you pathetic jackass. Why waste a receptacle and buy a cord when you could hard wire and be legal?


Because even a pathetic jackass is smart enough to know that a cord and receptacle is more cost effective than making a return trip to make connection after the plumber finally shows up to install the dishwasher. Same goes for disposals.


Who knew there was even a receptacle shortage. :no:


Now remember, watts are watts..... :laughing:


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> Um, have you read your own posts?
> 
> Um your as condescending as the rest of us. :laughing:


What's that shorty, look up when you speak so I can hear you. :laughing:


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

jwjrw said:


> It's between me and the pathetic jackass that doesn't believe in god.:thumbsup:



This is not a very Christian thing to say.

So you look down on me because I don't believe in fairy tales? Who's the pathetic jackass?

See you in hell sucker!


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

electricmanscott said:


> Because even a pathetic jackass is smart enough to know that a cord and receptacle is more cost effective than making a return trip to make connection after the plumber finally shows up to install the dishwasher. Same goes for disposals.:



I leave enough wire for the dish washer to be pulled out far enough for him to plumb it if it hasn't been done when I'm trimming out.







electricmanscott said:


> Who knew there was even a receptacle shortage. :no::



No shortage that I know of. Just more money in materials and a code violation in most cases to boot.




electricmanscott said:


> Now remember, watts are watts..... :laughing:



I do need to brush up on electrical thoery. I do have many things to learn. Most of us do. We stay so busy it's hard to make time to study. I got a little lax after I got my card.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

electricmanscott said:


> This is not a very Christian thing to say.!




You are right. I'm sorry for saying that.









electricmanscott said:


> So you look down on me because I don't believe in fairy tales? Who's the pathetic jackass?!



No I don't look down on you for what you believe. You are the one that made a big deal out of what I believe. I wish you nothing but the best.








electricmanscott said:


> See you in hell sucker!


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## lbt con (May 6, 2010)

Damn, ask a question and start a bar fight. I know about the disconnect for the water heater, but have never heard of a lock out. As far as the dishwasher goes have installed plenty and the breaker at the panel was always the disconnect, never told to put a switch under the sink. Sorry to ask a question and stir up so much s**t.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

lbt con said:


> Damn, ask a question and start a bar fight. I know about the disconnect for the water heater, but have never heard of a lock out. As far as the dishwasher goes have installed plenty and the breaker at the panel was always the disconnect, never told to put a switch under the sink. Sorry to ask a question and stir up so much s**t.


Don't be sorry, we love s**t, it is what we deal in here.

Back to the question, if the appliance has a 'unit switch' as per ...




> 422.34 Unit Switch(es) as Disconnecting Means. A unit
> switch(es) with a marked-off position that is a part of an
> appliance and disconnects all ungrounded conductors shall
> be permitted as the disconnecting means required by this
> ...


.. that can serve as the disconnecting means, but fewer and fewer appliances have a switch that qualifies.


So than you could place a switch or cord and plug at the or a lock off at the breaker.



> *422.31 Disconnection of Permanently Connected
> Appliances.
> 
> 
> ...


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

I dont understand why so many guys dont like this....? hard wire it and installing a breaker lock is by far the least expensive way to go. The code is telling you its ok not to install an outlet and cord.....! Why bother going through the trouble of puting in a switch, or outlet and cord when you can get away with a 2 dollar breaker lock......LOL you guys kill me......


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

captkirk said:


> I dont understand why so many guys dont like this....? hard wire it and installing a breaker lock is by far the least expensive way to go. The code is telling you its ok not to install an outlet and cord.....! Why bother going through the trouble of puting in a switch, or outlet and cord when you can get away with a 2 dollar breaker lock......LOL you guys kill me......


What's the big deal. Just because you think one way is "better" does not mean it is. I happen to think, make that know, my way works better for me. Whoopdeedo.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

I prefer cord and receptacle myself. I question whether NM is designed to be used as a flexible pigtail to a removable appliance. I personally find it just as easy to rough in a receptacle and put a cord on the dishwasher vs hardwiring it. If you hard wire it then you have to have a disconnecting means or lock out.


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

electricmanscott said:


> What's the big deal. Just because you think one way is "better" does not mean it is. I happen to think, make that know, my way works better for me. Whoopdeedo.


I dont think one way is better than the other, I just do what the "CODE" says you have to do..An inspector brought it to my attention about a year ago so now I do it the correct way. Just cause your the "Bad boy/rouge" electrician doesnt mean we all have to be......Try not to be a crotchety old man all the time....take a break once in a while..your heart will thank you.. You missed the whole point of the thread my friend..Arent we all here to learn and follow the code...?


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

captkirk said:


> I dont think one way is better than the other, I just do what the "CODE" says you have to do..An inspector brought it to my attention about a year ago so now I do it the correct way. Just cause your the "Bad boy/rouge" electrician doesnt mean we all have to be......Try not to be a crotchety old man all the time....take a break once in a while..your heart will thank you.. You missed the whole point of the thread my friend..Arent we all here to learn and follow the code...?


I do many kitchens out here, the only time i cord and plug is if the appliance is not set at the time of my final. We are not required yet by our inspectors to provide disconnect for our kitchen appliances. Everyone has an a-hole so everyone has a way to do something. I would like to see the manufacturers be required to provide disconnect on the unit such as a switch mounted on the feed box of DW or a pull out integral on a range. The NFPA is not for the electrician.


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## lbt con (May 6, 2010)

Ok I will get the two dollar breaker lock. But why the hell does the code require it. If you shut the breaker off, no power. Do they think someone is going to turn it on when you are not looking. If that is the case what about the 50 amp for the stove. You might be puttingon a new outlet and someone could turn it on. Hell breaker locks for all breakers.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

lbt con said:


> Ok I will get the two dollar breaker lock. But why the hell does the code require it. If you shut the breaker off, no power. Do they think someone is going to turn it on when you are not looking. If that is the case what about the 50 amp for the stove. You might be puttingon a new outlet and someone could turn it on. Hell breaker locks for all breakers.




For safety. If the panel is within 50ft and in "sight" no lock is needed. But if its not in sight someone could cut it on by mistake. I've had carpenters kick a gfi and start flipping breakers trying to get the power on. I can see why it's required because my dad of all people flipped the wrong breaker on and ruined my new kleins in the process.....crap happens. I just perfer using a switch for a disconnect. To each his own. My way and captkirk's way are both code compliant. Scotts and nitros way is not code compliant unless the d/w is ul listed for a cord to be added.


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## Mike in Canada (Jun 27, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> So than you could place a switch or cord and plug at the or a lock off at the breaker.


 This whole situation would be a non-starter if it wasn't for:
"The provision for locking or adding a lock to
the disconnecting means shall be installed on or at the
switch or circuit breaker used as the disconnecting means
and shall remain in place with or without the lock installed."

Darn. So a double-pole switch with hasp-holes for locking is required (cheapest option I can think of). Up here they've started looking hard for switching being marked "Suitable for use as disconnect". It has caused some anguish.

Mike


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## Mike in Canada (Jun 27, 2010)

jwjrw said:


> I can see why it's required because my dad of all people flipped the wrong breaker on and ruined my new kleins in the process.....crap happens.


 We're required to lock and tag breakers of circuits we're working on. The lock-outs for breakers aren't all that effective, really, but they certainly make it obvious that somebody is working on it.

Mike


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## sparky.jp (May 1, 2009)

On the commercial building project I'm just finishing up on, we used the permanently-installed circuit breaker locks (square-D QOB series in 120/208V branch panelboards and larger Square-D series breakers as required in 277/480V distribution panelboards) in lieu of locally-installed disconnects for many building loads, including domestic water heaters and unit heaters in the HVAC system.

They install easily onto the front of the circuit breakers prior to installing the deadfront panel. As a bonus, when somebody needs to do a lockout-tagout on that circuit, all they need is their lock and they don't have to chase down the correct breaker handle locking device.

It's one way to meet the code, albeit not the only way. In some cases I think there is value in having a local disconnect just for convenience sake, especially if the circuit breaker for that load is in an inaccessable part of the building.


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

A breaker lock will not count for a disconnecting means under the 2011 NEC. 422.31(C) is specific for motor driven appliances.



> *
> (C) Motor-Operated Appliances Rated over​​​​1⁄8 Horsepower.​
> *For permanently connected motor-operated appliances
> with motors rated over​​​​1⁄8 horse power, the branchcircuit
> ...




Actually under the 2008 NEC 422.32 does not allow a breaker lock for a disconnecting means of a motor driven appliance.

Chris


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

raider1 said:


> Actually under the 2008 NEC 422.32 does not allow a breaker lock for a disconnecting means of a motor driven appliance.


I have argued that many times, some said a DW is not a motor driven appliance.


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## sparky.jp (May 1, 2009)

Well, shoot, I'm learning more every day which is a good thing. I'm not up on the latest code cycle, the project I am working on (mentioned above) was designed years ago and meets the 2005 NEC edition per contract documents, so that's the version I am most familiar with now since I have lived and breathed this project for the last 1.5 years. Just getting all of the facility documentation in order now (as-builts, manuals, wiring diagrams, etc).

Thanks for the update on the 2011 version, I'll make note of this for my future projects.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> I have argued that many times, some said a DW is not a motor driven appliance.




And some people think the copper water pipe that meets the definition of an electrode only has to be used as an Lectrode if he wants to .....That don't make em right.:thumbsup::laughing:


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

Bob Badger said:


> I have argued that many times, some said a DW is not a motor driven appliance.


I don't know how someone would say a dishwasher is not a motor driven appliance.:blink:

Chris


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## jw0445 (Oct 9, 2009)

raider1 said:


> I don't know how someone would say a dishwasher is not a motor driven appliance.:blink:
> 
> Chris


I think Bob is talking about his wife.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

raider1 said:


> I don't know how someone would say a dishwasher is not a motor driven appliance.:blink:


Neither could I but that was the response from a NY state electrical inspector we know.


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## voltz (Jun 2, 2010)

Shockdoc said:


> I do many kitchens out here, the only time i cord and plug is if the appliance is not set at the time of my final. We are not required yet by our inspectors to provide disconnect for our kitchen appliances. Everyone has an a-hole so everyone has a way to do something. I would like to see the manufacturers be required to provide disconnect on the unit such as a *switch mounted on the feed box of DW or a pull out integral on a range*. The NFPA is not for the electrician.



the disconnects have to be accessible


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## Drsparky14 (Oct 22, 2016)

jwjrw said:


> It is illegal to add a cord to a dishwasher if the d/w is not listed for a cord to be added. If it comes with a cord then it is legal to plug into a receptacle and the cord qualifys for a disconnect.
> 
> The breaker only qualifys as a disconnect if it is witin 50ft and in sight of the water heater.


Not trying to be condescending here, or contrary but ith this logic, what about a disposal? Most do not come with whips on them. They have to be added. Are you saying that if it didn’t come with one it has to also be hard wired?
My opinion on this is no, as long as the whip you use is UL listed for appliance use. When they only leave you with an open 1/2” knockout it’s up to you how you power it. That’s after the appliance in the listings concern.
Have you ever looked up the listing documents for a dishwasher and confirmed it says this unit is to only be hardwired? If that’s the case the Listing agency would require that be on a sticker in the junction box for the dishwasher.
Hmm🤔


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## Drsparky14 (Oct 22, 2016)

Bob Badger said:


> Neither could I but that was the response from a NY state electrical inspector we know.


A dishwasher would likely still be considered a motor operated appliance but under 422.31 (C) it would need to be over 1/8 horsepower to be covered by that rule. Otherwise (A) or (B)


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Another old thread that was resurrected. Maybe good to talk about as the codes changed since 2010.


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## mjbasford (Oct 2, 2016)

Does this win oldest zombie thread?


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