# Should there be wage classes dependent on the type of labor performed?



## Forrester28 (Sep 3, 2010)

As I continue on I see more and more of the work becoming easier while the rates go up. I see journeyman wiremen wiring up lights the same (or slower) as the 1st year apprentice, what part of that deserves $73 per hour? I worked on a large rooftop solar array in which 95% of the work was humping material and pushing bolts thru holes, something that a day laborer off the street could do. I was lucky that me and my apprentice did the pipe work, the only thing that required a braincell or two.

As a JW I have used my skills and experience over the years and feel that I always earned my pay. I was always a company guy and was properly utilized. Work got slow, now I am going out on jobs from the hall, and I feel like I am robbing the contractor sometimes. Much of the work is something that an apprentice can do if you give him a good 15 minute demonstration. 

It just seems like $73/hr package and $47 in the envelope is a bit much for someone moving pallets of material around all day. The union laborers do it for half of that. I did it when I worked at a supermarket as a kid for minimum wage.

I guess I am just venting. It's not that I want to take a pay cut, it's that I want to feel like I am earning my paycheck by doing something that requires the skills and experience that I use to demand my wage.


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

Forrester28 said:


> As I continue on I see more and more of the work becoming easier while the rates go up. I see journeyman wiremen wiring up lights the same (or slower) as the 1st year apprentice, what part of that deserves $73 per hour? I worked on a large rooftop solar array in which 95% of the work was humping material and pushing bolts thru holes, something that a day laborer off the street could do. I was lucky that me and my apprentice did the pipe work, the only thing that required a braincell or two.
> 
> As a JW I have used my skills and experience over the years and feel that I always earned my pay. I was always a company guy and was properly utilized. Work got slow, now I am going out on jobs from the hall, and I feel like I am robbing the contractor sometimes. Much of the work is something that an apprentice can do if you give him a good 15 minute demonstration.
> 
> ...


You mean pay MORE for jobs that require MORE skill and pay LESS for jobs that require LESS skill?

Sheesh next thing you know we will be paying employees that work harder MORE and lazy slugs LESS. What is this world coming to?

Maybe the CE/CW can do all the hard work, for LESS pay and the JWs can just do the skilled work and make MORE money. When work is slow the CE/CW can just sit home and the JWs can do both and get 2 different pay rates.

Good for everyone right. The union shops can compete with the rat shops (except for PW jobs there should be more laws to keep the rat shops out of that). The union will allow the scab to work (sometimes if they dont want to do the work for less) and the JWs dont have to get there skirts dirty. 



Did I stir it?


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

> Should there be wage classes dependent on the type of labor performed?


There are if you work merit shop. :thumbsup:


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Forrester28 said:


> As I continue on I see more and more of the work becoming easier while the rates go up. I see journeyman wiremen wiring up lights the same (or slower) as the 1st year apprentice, what part of that deserves $73 per hour? I worked on a large rooftop solar array in which 95% of the work was humping material and pushing bolts thru holes, something that a day laborer off the street could do. I was lucky that me and my apprentice did the pipe work, the only thing that required a braincell or two.
> 
> As a JW I have used my skills and experience over the years and feel that I always earned my pay. I was always a company guy and was properly utilized. Work got slow, now I am going out on jobs from the hall, and I feel like I am robbing the contractor sometimes. Much of the work is something that an apprentice can do if you give him a good 15 minute demonstration.
> 
> ...



I've heard of self hating Americans, self hating Jews, self hating Catholics and on and on. But self hating electrician? That's a new one.


This is one bizzarro post for sure.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

Forrester28 said:


> I worked on a large rooftop solar array in which 95% of the work was humping material and pushing bolts thru holes, something that a day laborer off the street could do.


Try having a day laborer do it and see how you like the result.. Just saying.


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## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

You mean pay a guy what he's worth? Na that would never work.


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## Forrester28 (Sep 3, 2010)

electricmanscott said:


> I've heard of self hating Americans, self hating Jews, self hating Catholics and on and on. But self hating electrician? That's a new one.
> 
> 
> This is one bizzarro post for sure.


I'm not self hating, I am being honest.


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## Forrester28 (Sep 3, 2010)

nitro71 said:


> Try having a day laborer do it and see how you like the result.. Just saying.


If properly trained, I can't see the difference. It's just like an erector set, you really can't go wrong. There are only a couple of holes, the pieces will only fit into the holes they are supposed to. I see day laborers rope houses, so I'm sure they can hump material and slide bolts thru holes.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

Forrester28 said:


> If properly trained, I can't see the difference. It's just like an erector set, you really can't go wrong. There are only a couple of holes, the pieces will only fit into the holes they are supposed to. I see day laborers rope houses, so I'm sure they can hump material and slide bolts thru holes.


Who drilled the holes? Who measured? Who trained the day laborer? You can have a laborer rope your house but I won't live in it.


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## Forrester28 (Sep 3, 2010)

nitro71 said:


> Who drilled the holes?


 No holes needed to be drilled. The entire array sits on the roof, ballast block and sticky pads holds it down. That's another job that paid $73/hr, putting sticky pads on the feet. Carrying block paid the same too.



> Who measured?


 The foreman laid out with a 1st year helper the first day as we were bringing material up with the crane (lot's of standing around). The lines were on the deck, you couldn't go wrong.


> Who trained the day laborer?


 No training required. None of us did this type of installation before. Like I said, it was as simple as building an erector set. You can't go wrong. The instructions to put together my wall unit were 10X more complicated than the cut sheet on this array. 


> You can have a laborer rope your house but I won't live in it.


I think you are just being argumentative.


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

nitro71 said:


> Who drilled the holes? Who measured? Who trained the day laborer? You can have a laborer rope your house but I won't live in it.


95% of the work installing solar doesnt take a 5 year apprenticeship. It just doesnt. Its too easy. 

Here is a list of things that are harder to do then installing solar.

Tieing your shoe
opening a beer
Sexual intercourse
Reading threads on 250.52
breathing
farting

You get the idea.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

You sound like a desk jockey. Lines laid out. Easy to install. Like a erector set. You happened to be on the ONLY install that's ever gone that smooth. I can't think of one install I've done where I want a day laborer helping me for anything besides digging a trench. You feel free to have unskilled labor work for you.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Turn in your ticket and go work non union. You'll get exactly what you want.
$15 per hour. Now remember one thing, even though you'll get paid according to the "difficulty" level_ (who determines that??)_ of the job the contractors price doesn't change. Congratulations :thumbup: you just put more money in the contractors pocket's and less in ours. Good job :thumbsup:.

I'll explain something to you, the contractors are very smart. Much smarter then most people want to admit. You see how quickly they agreed with you.
The package you described is identical to my local's are you a member? If you were you would know the contractors got no problem turning a profit at our rates.


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

slickvic277 said:


> the contractors got no problem turning a profit at our rates.


Is it going to stay that way in solar tho vic? D&B only applies to schools and municipal buildings if the project is funded with grant money right? So if these projects are funded by SREC factoring, like so many are then the PW requirements are gone and the open shops can bid at there own rates.

Is 98 giving solar training yet? I dont think 351 is yet. So the level of training right now is pretty equal between open and union shops.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

NO install ever goes exactly perfect. You better have someone in the field that can "field engineer" something to get the job done. 

One time not to long ago I was supposed to just replace a solenoid coil on a valve, sounds easy right anyone should be able to do it right it's just disconnect 2 wires a piece of flex and put the new one on, following the NO install goes perfect rule, someone got the coil order wrong and I had to find a different coil on a weekend BTW, find a control transformer out of an old sprinkler timer, and rig a little relay and float switch circuit up, let's see your unskilled labor do that.


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## Forrester28 (Sep 3, 2010)

nitro71 said:


> You sound like a desk jockey.


 For what reason?



> Lines laid out. Easy to install. Like a erector set. You happened to be on the ONLY install that's ever gone that smooth.


 I don't see how in the world it could NOT go that smooth. tell me, how many of these large rooftop arrays have you worked on? What were the problems?


> I can't think of one install I've done where I want a day laborer helping me for anything besides digging a trench. You feel free to have unskilled labor work for you.


I never said that I WANTED day laborers, I said that they could do the work.

Again, you are just arguing because you don't like the topic. Anything that goes against the "I am union so I deserve $1,000 per hour" mentality probably makes you this way. And that is one of the main reasons why our market share is so low, IMO.


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## Forrester28 (Sep 3, 2010)

slickvic277 said:


> Turn in your ticket and go work non union. You'll get exactly what you want.
> $15 per hour. Now remember one thing, even though you'll get paid according to the "difficulty" level_ (who determines that??)_ of the job the contractors price doesn't change. Congratulations :thumbup: you just put more money in the contractors pocket's and less in ours. Good job :thumbsup:.
> 
> I'll explain something to you, the contractors are very smart. Much smarter then most people want to admit. You see how quickly they agreed with you.
> The package you described is identical to my local's are you a member? If you were you would know the contractors got no problem turning a profit at our rates.


 Tell me, if the merit shops are bidding the same pries but simply putting more in their pockets, why are they winning all the work? Why is our marketshare so very low?


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

There is a classification called 'Material Handler' here.

They install nothing but move stuff around, typically they work in the warehouse and make deliveries to the jobsite.

On bigger jobs, one will come in a couple times a week just to organize all the parts.

So you got what you want in the classification. Being one is what helps them get into the program. Some contractors have these material handlers going about the job, making up a parts list, and getting the order ready. Right down to laying 4in GRC down right below where it will hang.


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## Forrester28 (Sep 3, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> NO install ever goes exactly perfect. You better have someone in the field that can "field engineer" something to get the job done.


 You're absolutely correct, but how many people do you need to be at that level? All 14 of us? Or is 3 or 4 enough while the rest of the men who are just humping material be lower paid workers?


> One time not to long ago I was supposed to just replace a solenoid coil on a valve, sounds easy right anyone should be able to do it right it's just disconnect 2 wires a piece of flex and put the new one on, following the NO install goes perfect rule, someone got the coil order wrong and I had to find a different coil on a weekend BTW, find a control transformer out of an old sprinkler timer, and rig a little relay and float switch circuit up, let's see your unskilled labor do that.


 Why would I want unskilled labor to do that? If you think that is what I want, you haven't read a word that I said. 

What you described is a perfect example of the work I like to do, something that makes me feel like I earned my paycheck. Carrying material or wiring up light fixtures all day is not. I did that when i was a first year helper. Hell, I did that before I got in the union and knew a thing about electrical work.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

gold said:


> Is it going to stay that way in solar tho vic? D&B only applies to schools and municipal buildings if the project is funded with grant money right? So if these projects are funded by SREC factoring, like so many are then the PW requirements are gone and the open shops can bid at there own rates.
> 
> Is 98 giving solar training yet? I dont think 351 is yet. So the level of training right now is pretty equal between open and union shops.



98 has it as part of the apprenticeship and also a Journeyman level training course as well. I'm not familiar with NJ but the PA DOL already ruled that any solar projects getting grant money are under the PW law. Small business, residential, industrial, it doesn't matter.


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## Forrester28 (Sep 3, 2010)

miller_elex said:


> There is a classification called 'Material Handler' here.
> 
> They install nothing but move stuff around, typically they work in the warehouse and make deliveries to the jobsite.
> 
> ...


That sounds reasonable, I like that idea and would support it if it were up for a vote.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Forrester28 said:


> Tell me, if the merit shops are bidding the same pries but simply putting more in their pockets, why are they winning all the work? Why is our marketshare so very low?



One; there prices are not the same. Except for PW jobs and sometimes they still magically lower there bid.:whistling2: Another thing is 98 has close to 90% market share in Philadelphia, maybe more.


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

slickvic277 said:


> PA DOL already ruled that any solar projects getting grant money are under the PW law. Small business, residential, industrial, it doesn't matter.


Right the ones getting grant money. But the ones that are being installed without grant money are open to pretty much everyone.


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## Forrester28 (Sep 3, 2010)

gold said:


> are open to pretty much everyone.


You bet your ass. Carpenters want the work, masons want the work, iron workers want it, even glaziers want it.


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

Forrester28 said:


> Tell me, if the merit shops are bidding the same pries but simply putting more in their pockets, why are they winning all the work? Why is our marketshare so very low?


Because we aren't bidding the same prices we are much lower and maintain wider margins.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Forrester28 said:


> You're absolutely correct, but how many people do you need to be at that level? All 14 of us? Or is 3 or 4 enough while the rest of the men who are just humping material be lower paid workers?
> Why would I want unskilled labor to do that? If you think that is what I want, you haven't read a word that I said.
> 
> What you described is a perfect example of the work I like to do, something that makes me feel like I earned my paycheck. Carrying material or wiring up light fixtures all day is not. I did that when i was a first year helper. Hell, I did that before I got in the union and knew a thing about electrical work.


I really should have gone into more detail. What I really meant is were do you draw the line. I know some contractors that find a way to save money and go too far with it.


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## Forrester28 (Sep 3, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> I really should have gone into more detail. What I really meant is were do you draw the line. I know some contractors that find a way to save money and go too far with it.


I agree with you. No, I do not have a solution, but I definitely see a problem.

You can see the other guys in the thread getting all hot under the collar because I am breaking the union rules by admitting the truth :laughing:


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

gold said:


> Right the ones getting grant money. But the ones that are being installed without grant money are open to pretty much everyone.



Yes, of course. But in PA very few are getting done without grant money.The problem that 98's facing is the state is not enforcing it's own ruling as of right now.


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

Forrester28 said:


> You can see the other guys in the thread getting all hot under the collar because I am breaking the union rules by admitting the truth :laughing:


 
Nah, this thread is real cival you want to see hot in the collar throw in some 250.52 Threads will close.


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## Widestance_Politics (Jun 2, 2010)

Forrester28 said:


> I agree with you. No, I do not have a solution, but I definitely see a problem.
> 
> You can see the other guys in the thread getting all hot under the collar because I am breaking the union rules by admitting the truth :laughing:


I don't see anyone getting hot under the collar...looks like they are just debating.....I'm gonna take a wild guess that you changed from the pot-leaf avatar.....


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## Forrester28 (Sep 3, 2010)

slickvic277 said:


> Turn in your ticket and go work non union. You'll get exactly what you want.


There are a lot of things I like about the union and a lot of things that I like about non-union shops.

Most likely I will be shelving my book and going non-union since the union can't compete anymore. I'm not going to sit out for 20 months waiting for a 2-3 month job, just to sit out for another 2 years after that.

It was good while it lasted, but it looks all down hill from here. There are things we can do to change it for the better and get more market share back, but many of the members (like yourself) are unwilling to change.


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

slickvic277 said:


> Yes, of course. But in PA very few are getting done without grant money.The problem that 98's facing is the state is not enforcing it's own ruling as of right now.


Probably because all the grant money is pretty much gone. There left relying on srec financeing now. Which is what I was eluding to.


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

Did we just get Trolled?

HAHA


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## Forrester28 (Sep 3, 2010)

Widestance_Politics said:


> I don't see anyone getting hot under the collar...


I do. When I make a statement about problems with the union and people tell me that I'm a self hating electrician, I'm a desk jockey, I should turn my card in, etc. it seems like they are a bit frazzled.



> I'm gonna take a wild guess that you changed from the pot-leaf avatar.....


 No pot here. Altho I am usually against drug testing, I have to admit that it does clean up the local when properly applied.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

gold said:


> Probably because all the grant money is pretty much gone. There left relying on srec financeing now. Which is what I was eluding to.


Not in PA. There just now starting to release the funds. I suspect they'll be a large influx of solar jobs in the month of October.

The DOL ruled, that any funds flowing from any government entity or program will be applicable under the Pennsylvania Prevailing Wage Act.-In regards to solar rebates and incentives.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Forrester28 said:


> There are a lot of things I like about the union and a lot of things that I like about non-union shops.
> 
> Most likely I will be shelving my book and going non-union since the union can't compete anymore. I'm not going to sit out for 20 months waiting for a 2-3 month job, just to sit out for another 2 years after that.
> 
> It was good while it lasted, but it looks all down hill from here. There are things we can do to change it for the better and get more market share back, but many of the members (like yourself) are unwilling to change.



You have 17 posts and know diddly squat about me. I'm really starting to doubt your a member.


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## Forrester28 (Sep 3, 2010)

slickvic277 said:


> You have 17 posts and know diddly squat about me. I'm really starting to doubt your a member.


How does my post count or my personal knowledge of YOU effect what I have said?

What have a said that would suggest in any way that I am not a member?


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

> Forrester28;279944]How does my post count or my personal knowledge of YOU effect what I have said?


Because most members here know me as being pro union but I'll go out on a limb and say that I wouldn't fall into the "stuck in the old school" mentality.

If you know so much about me tell me something that no one else here would know.



> What have a said that would suggest in any way that I am not a member?


Nothing, but nothing you said really proved that you are either.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

I said the same thing about fiber optic splicing in the 80's all the ECs were rushing to get men trained and who does the splicing now, semi-skilled laborers.

Office Networks the same thing the hall was all excited by this new work now semi skilled laborers do it.

And in 5 years solar will be the same way.


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## Widestance_Politics (Jun 2, 2010)

Forrester28 said:


> I do. When I make a statement about problems with the union and people tell me that I'm a self hating electrician, I'm a desk jockey, I should turn my card in, etc. it seems like they are a bit frazzled.
> 
> No pot here. Altho I am usually against drug testing, I have to admit that it does clean up the local when properly applied.


Ok I agree with you onn the self-hating, desk jockey statements.....but I think the one about turning your card in may have just been actuall advice.....what you are asking for is close to what you will find at a merit shop.....and that is not a dig on merit shops....justdo what you gotta do....


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

I have always thought a knowledge based scale, that a deck ape makes with a PLC/control tech makes is a freaking joke.

The head of apprenticeship at our local once told me a monkey could be trained to do what the average electrician does, get a speciality boy.

But he also told be to get my $1,800.00 bike (1976 that was an expensive bike) out of the hall, he told me "only ******* and sissies ride a bike to my hall, are you a fuc*ing sissie?" Oh it was a Italian bike which offended him all the more.


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## Forrester28 (Sep 3, 2010)

slickvic277 said:


> Because most members here know me as being pro union but I'll go out on a limb and say that I wouldn't fall into the "stuck in the old school" mentality.
> 
> If you know so much about me tell me something that no one else here would know.


 I'll ask the same question again, what does me knowing something about you have to do with the topic of this thread?



> Nothing, but nothing you said really proved that you are either.


Do we have to prove who we are here? I must have missed that memo. You want to test me so you can be sure?


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## Forrester28 (Sep 3, 2010)

Widestance_Politics said:


> .but I think the one about turning your card in may have just been actuall advice.....what you are asking for is close to what you will find at a merit shop.


 Yes, but that is only one issue. There are hundreds of other issues that need to be weighed when deciding which road to take. Personally, I'd rather stick with the union and clean it up a bit and try to get a better market share by doing the right thing.

That's actually exactly what I am talking about. the second I said something that goes against the grain in an attempt to better the union as a whole, the guys told me to hand in my card cause they don't want the change.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

> Forrester28;279954]I'll ask the same question again, what does me knowing something about you have to do with the topic of this thread?


Nothing really. But your the one who brought it up.




> Do we have to prove who we are here? I must have missed that memo. You want to test me so you can be sure?


No, I don't need a test. But what local are you a member of?


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## Forrester28 (Sep 3, 2010)

slickvic277 said:


> Nothing really. But your the one who brought it up.


 No, actually I brought up pay scales and wage classes while you have been talking about everything but that topic.




> No, I don't need a test. But what local are you a member of?


102


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Forrester28 said:


> No, actually I brought up pay scales and wage classes while you have been talking about everything but that topic.
> 
> 
> 
> *102*



That explains a lot.


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## Forrester28 (Sep 3, 2010)

slickvic277 said:


> That explains a lot.


Yeah yeah. Let's hear it...


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Forrester28 said:


> Yeah yeah. Let's hear it...


Vic I wouldn't argue with this dude, he's just another member of the ET troll union.


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## Forrester28 (Sep 3, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> Vic I wouldn't argue with this dude, he's just another member of the ET troll union.


Exactly what did I do? 

I guess if you don't like what someone is saying you simply label them a troll?


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Forrester28 said:


> Exactly what did I do?
> 
> I guess if you don't like what someone is saying you simply label them a troll?


Here at ET we operate on the shoot first ask questions later philosophy. Most of the time someone starts something like this its a troll.


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## Forrester28 (Sep 3, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> Here at ET we operate on the shoot first ask questions later philosophy. Most of the time someone starts something like this its a troll.


Whatever dude.

If you don't like or agree with something that I said, spell it out. But I think it's pretty lame for you to sit there all high and mighty just saying "Troll!".


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Alright, alright let's calm down. I think were getting off on the wrong foot.
Forrester I was just breaking your stones, there's a lot of that here.

FWIW. I agree there's a whole lot of problems in our union. I don't think the rate is necessarily the problem. Poor leadership and obsolete ideals and culture I think are much bigger problems then the rate.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Forrester28 said:


> Whatever dude.
> 
> If you don't like or agree with something that I said, spell it out. But I think it's pretty lame for you to sit there all high and mighty just saying "Troll!".


Spell it out, alright. I hate people that think cause they can use a bender or whatever thinking they are above all the other work. You can't move a box or mount a freaking 2x4 fixture and who the he11 complains about making a butt load of money for doing a simple job anyway. Cause that's how your argument reads, like you want the less skilled labor to do the crap work you don't want to do.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

slickvic277 said:


> Alright, alright let's calm down. I think were getting off on the wrong foot.
> Forrester I was just breaking your stones, there's a lot of that here.
> 
> FWIW. I agree there's a whole lot of problems in our union. I don't think the rate is necessarily the problem. Poor leadership and obsolete ideals and culture I think are much bigger problems then the rate.


But, but I took the time to type out a rant. And to Forrester28 breaking stones is like an every other post occurrence especially if your in a 250.52 thread:laughing:


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Jlarson said:


> Spell it out, alright. I hate people that think cause they can use a bender or whatever thinking they are above all the other work. You can't move a box or mount a freaking 2x4 fixture and who the he11 complains about making a butt load of money for doing a simple job anyway. Cause that's how your argument reads, like you want the less skilled labor to do the crap work you don't want to do.



Now that right there is funny.:thumbup:


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Jlarson said:


> But, but I took the time to type out a rant. And to Forrester28 breaking stones is like an every other post occurrence especially if your in a 250.52 thread:laughing:



He's a 102 guy. They have special needs.


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## Forrester28 (Sep 3, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> Spell it out, alright. I hate people that think cause they can use a bender or whatever thinking they are above all the other work.


 I can do WAY more than use a bender. I don't MIND doing manual labor, but I think it's pretty wasteful to pay me $73/hr to do so. I feel that is what is hurting the IBEW in general.



> You can't move a box or mount a freaking 2x4 fixture


 Sure I could, but once again, why would you make me do it? Should we pay doctors to pickup the trash? Lawyers to towel off the cars at the car wash? Why pay a man who is skilled and experienced in something such a high amount of money to do weeks or months worth of manual labor that would ordinarily command $15 an hour?


> and who the he11 complains about making a butt load of money for doing a simple job anyway.


 I do, when it leads to such a small market share that our local has a 20 month wait. 


> Cause that's how your argument reads, like you want the less skilled labor to do the crap work you don't want to do.


 That's exactly what I said, isn't it? And what's wrong with that? Why shouldn't the less skilled laborers do the manual labor that requires little to no skill or experience? That seems to make PERFECT sense...


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## Forrester28 (Sep 3, 2010)

slickvic277 said:


> He's a 102 guy. They have special needs.


I asked you before, let's hear what you have to say about 102 guys...

The way it looks, YOU are the troll.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Forrester28 said:


> I asked you before, let's hear what you have to say about 102 guys...
> 
> The way it looks, YOU are the troll.


Hell I'm across the county and I already know one of their members tends to piss me off and is in need of some; 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dfx73Z6fhbc


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## Forrester28 (Sep 3, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> Hell I'm across the county and I already know there their members tend to piss me off and they are in need of some;
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dfx73Z6fhbc


I honestly don't know what the hell you just said nor what that video has to do with anything.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Forrester28 said:


> I asked you before, let's hear what you have to say about 102 guys...
> 
> The way it looks, YOU are the troll.



Nothing. I like 102 guy's. I've worked with a couple before they were cool. Hell a few years back my local had a ton of 102 guy's working here. Your just really excitable and it's funny.

Troll.......Eh, I've been called worse by better.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Forrester28 said:


> I honestly don't know what the hell you just said nor what that video has to do with anything.


 I edited check back.


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## Forrester28 (Sep 3, 2010)

Two idiots, no wonder the IBEW will be a thing of the past in a few years. Thanks for the help, Brothers...


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Forrester28 said:


> ...But how many people do you need to be at that level? All 14 of us? Or is 3 or 4 enough while the rest of the men who are just humping material be lower paid workers?
> Why would I want unskilled labor to do that?....


 I think the thing to remember is that right now both non-union and union shops are struggling to keep guys from sitting down. If they can keep 14 J-men employed doing this work, they jump at the chance to take it.

However, if during a "normal" economy, where jobs for skilled J-men are widely available, they're still using this same formula, then I agree that's a recipe for problems. Because you can bet that a merit shop would be bidding that same job with a couple of J-men, as many apprentices as legally allowed, and possibly some laborers, and the hall won't be able to compete with that formula.

From the standpoint of an employee, I also think it's in their interest to keep the job assignments skilled. I expect the same pay regardless of the work I do, because that's the pay we agreed on. They pay me the same whether I'm restoring a power plant to operation or pushing a broom. But I'm much more valuable to them restoring a power plant, and I'm a heck of a lot happier doing it, so we both win if they utilize me to my full ability. That's true for everyone. Having J-men do the job of laborers screws up moral if it goes on for too long.

And, there are also times when the customer will simply "overpay" for the job. These aren't little old ladies, they're big commercial customers, they know (or darn well should) what they're getting for their money. I worked on a job where a pharmaceutical giant paid $1,000,000 (yes, that's six zeros) for the installation of 10 flat-screen televisions. These were not difficult installs. There was nothing to "justify" $100,000 per TV. But if they are willing to pay it, why on earth not? No one forced them to accept that bid.

So, I think it's important to keep perspective and consider all the circumstances of the job before getting too worked up.

-John


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Big John said:


> I think the thing to remember is that right now both non-union and union shops are struggling to keep guys from sitting down. If they can keep 14 J-men employed doing this work, they jump at the chance to take it.
> 
> However, if during a "normal" economy, where jobs for skilled J-men are widely available, they're still using this same formula, then I agree that's a recipe for problems. Because you can bet that a merit shop would be bidding that same job with a couple of J-men, as many apprentices as legally allowed, and possibly some laborers, and the hall won't be able to compete with that formula.
> 
> ...


This is a well thought out and intelligent post.:thumbsup:


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## Forrester28 (Sep 3, 2010)

Big John said:


> I think the thing to remember is that right now both non-union and union shops are struggling to keep guys from sitting down. If they can keep 14 J-men employed doing this work, they jump at the chance to take it.


 On the job I was speaking about, every single man was out of the hall, even the foreman.


> From the standpoint of an employee, I also think it's in their interest to keep the job assignments skilled. I expect the same pay regardless of the work I do, because that's the pay we agreed on. They pay me the same whether I'm restoring a power plant to operation or pushing a broom. But I'm much more valuable to them restoring a power plant, and I'm a heck of a lot happier doing it, so we both win if they utilize me to my full ability. That's true for everyone. Having J-men do the job of laborers screws up moral if it goes on for too long.


 Excellent statement, i agree with you 100%.


> And, there are also times when the customer will simply "overpay" for the job. These aren't little old ladies, they're big commercial customers, they know (or darn well should) what they're getting for their money. I worked on a job where a pharmaceutical giant paid $1,000,000 (yes, that's six zeros) for the installation of 10 flat-screen televisions. These were not difficult installs. There was nothing to "justify" $100,000 per TV. But if they are willing to pay it, why on earth not? No one forced them to accept that bid.


 That's great in that situation. But when the customer HAS to pay an incredibly high rate because you have so many $73/hr men humping material, they tend sway more towards the non-union side.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Big John said:


> I think the thing to remember is that right now both non-union and union shops are struggling to keep guys from sitting down. If they can keep 14 J-men employed doing this work, they jump at the chance to take it.
> 
> However, if during a "normal" economy, where jobs for skilled J-men are widely available, they're still using this same formula, then I agree that's a recipe for problems. Because you can bet that a merit shop would be bidding that same job with a couple of J-men, as many apprentices as legally allowed, and possibly some laborers, and the hall won't be able to compete with that formula.
> 
> ...


Nice post. I still can't get passed the idea this guy wants to only do the work he wants to do.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Forrester28 said:


> I'm not going to sit out for 20 months waiting for a 2-3 month job, just to sit out for another 2 years after that.


You sound like a great candidate for the salting program.

Spew that line at your interview, and you are, HIRED HIRED HIRED!

I am not making this up.

Listen man, you are just, waddyacallit, VENTING. I feel your pain, been there. Go read some of my previous posts.

Salting is good for you because it keeps you busy, and keeps your skills sharp. It keeps the hall in the know about what is going on. It builds a bridge between your new shop and the hall, though no one will cross it.

I was offered a buy out from the union, a big promotion, all kinds of goodies, but turned it down. The folks at that (specialty) shop were the nicest in the world, it just happened to be that the total package was $15 less per hour. Anyways, when the work I was running was finished, I split for a regular call.


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## Forrester28 (Sep 3, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> Nice post. I still can't get passed the idea this guy wants to only do the work he wants to do.


Why not? Who doesn't want to only do the work that they want to do? All I want to do is electrical work.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Forrester28 said:


> ...When the customer HAS to pay an incredibly high rate because you have so many $73/hr men humping material, they tend sway more towards the non-union side.


 Absolutely. That's why I was saying, if that's a "normal" situation something really does need to change. 

The trick is you'll always have slugs who are content doing BS work and raking in dough for it, and you gotta try and make sure they don't end up being the voice for your local. A lot of guys would probably be happier making sure they're doing work they can take pride in, and if you're trying to sell the change to your hall, that's probably how you have to do it.

-John


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Forrester28 said:


> Why not? Who doesn't want to only do the work that they want to do? All I want to do is electrical work.


So would you tell your foreman to get someone else to carry your materials for you cause it's not the type of work you want to do?


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

the industry is dumbing down...prefab stick and click devices, boxes, wiring...10 conductor MC - no need to bend pipe...

had a good friend work on a couple of hotels in vegas a few years back...not a bender over 1" on site...everything was factory bends (11, 22 1/2, 30, 45....) 

you can do well over 50% of today's installs (commercial) ,and probably over 70% of residential, with a couple of electricians and a bunch of monkeys...go ahead, argue based on your premise of how much you know and how hard you work...

there is no thinking required of the average electrician, union or non, and lord help the contractor who prices jobs based on his men thinking...

pick up any trade magazine, and look at all the neat tools and material being invented that eliminate the need for any type of skill...

how many guys here can bend 4" accurately with a Greenlee 881? How many guys just googled "Greenlee 881 bender" to see what it looks like?

there are good journeymen out there, who are worth $80+/hr....but not nearly as there are electricians out there getting paid $80+/hr..


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## Forrester28 (Sep 3, 2010)

Big John said:


> Absolutely. That's why I was saying, if that's a "normal" situation something really does need to change.
> 
> The trick is you'll always have slugs who are content doing BS work and raking in dough for it, and you gotta try and make sure they don't end up being the voice for your local. A lot of guys would probably be happier making sure they're doing work they can take pride in, and if you're trying to sell the change to your hall, that's probably how you have to do it.
> 
> -John


We see eye to eye :thumbsup:


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

P.S. They will BIRD DOG you like a mofo! Even have their 'pipelines' on the job to suckup to you, cozy up, and then call the PM that evening at home for updates.

It is what it is. But if the PM's pipeline could do the work, then I'd have been working for him. And if they didn't think I could perform, I wouldn't have been running work in places where mistakes are a big no-no. Non-union shops have sweet contracts too, and if you're the shining star you say you are, then you will be the MAN.

The customer gets to know you, and will be introduced to what real quality and craftsmanship is. It is truly all about the customer.


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## Forrester28 (Sep 3, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> So would you tell your foreman to get someone else to carry your materials for you cause it's not the type of work you want to do?


Would I turn down a job in this economy? No.

Do I think it's wrong to pay a man $73/hr to do manual labor that people would be happy to get $15/hr to do, especially when it's pricing union labor out of the market? Yes.

I've made this very clear. As I said earlier, you are just trolling. You see my point, but you don't like it because you are probably that JW that goes out on jobs and does a brainless job like pulling MC at half the speed of the apprentices, then complains that they are working too fast.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Forrester28 said:


> Would I turn down a job in this economy? No.
> 
> Do I think it's wrong to pay a man $73/hr to do manual labor that people would be happy to get $15/hr to do, especially when it's pricing union labor out of the market? Yes.
> 
> I've made this very clear. As I said earlier, you are just trolling. You see my point, but you don't like it because you are probably that JW that goes out on jobs and does a brainless job like pulling MC at half the speed of the apprentices, then complains that they are working too fast.


:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:

The only person I troll is Vic (BTW Vic you missed one i tossed you in Riv's why a ground thread). I actually do the same thing Big John does not a power utility though water and waste water. I do PLC, control, instrumentation, motor work, all the fun stuff. I usually work alone and I think I have only ever installed like 100' of MC.


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## Forrester28 (Sep 3, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> I actually do the same thing Big John does not a power utility though water and waste water. I do PLC, control, instrumentation, motor work, all the fun stuff. I usually work alone and I think I have only ever installed like 100' of MC.


The way you are talking, I don't know if I believe you. Someone who does those things wouldn't like to be put on a job carrying material and block for 2 months. Someone who actually cares about the union and getting more market share wouldn't like it either.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Also you should know that sometimes I play the other side of an argument just* cause I want people to think about the other side *:thumbup:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Jlarson said:


> Nice post. I still can't get passed the idea this guy wants to only do the work he wants to do.


 
I only do what I want to do. Well except when I have to do test reports....


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## Forrester28 (Sep 3, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> Also you should know that sometimes I play the other side of an argument just* cause I want people to think about the other side *:thumbup:


 :sleep1:


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

In reality I wouldn't put the JW's on stupid work ether. Doesn't make sense, that's also why I get materials HD and don't use overly expensive stuff. That's how you win jobs these days. Like I said I like to make people think about the other side so the country doesn't end up like one giant flock of sheep. And if you want to see some of my handy work search for the thread radio telemetry, I posted an emergency rush control job I did a week ago.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Forrester28 said:


> :sleep1:


Damn why didn't I see that coming.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

oldman said:


> the industry is dumbing down...prefab stick and click devices, boxes, wiring...10 conductor MC - no need to bend pipe...


And if you are not of foreman quality or a specialist in the commercial market you will be doing simplistic work, that can be done by the less skilled.

*DID YOU READ MY POST ABOUT SALARY BASED ON KNOWLEDGE*



> had a good friend work on a couple of hotels in vegas a few years back...not a bender over 1" on site...everything was factory bends (11, 22 1/2, 30, 45....)


YEP



> you can do well over 50% of today's installs (commercial) ,and probably over 70% of residential, with a couple of electricians and a bunch of monkeys...go ahead, argue based on your premise of how much you know and how hard you work...


GOING TO GET MY ASS KICKED, but if you cannot wire a track home after 6 months you are in the wrong business, commercial is heading that way. With a good foreman anyone will be ablt to do MOST the work.....



> there is no thinking required of the average electrician, union or non, and lord help the contractor who prices jobs based on his men thinking...


I do not think it is there yet, but most of the work I see is hospitals and data centers the few office buildings the foreman requirement was the ability to speak Spanish.




> ....but not nearly as there are electricians out there getting paid $80+/hr..


 Hell I ain't worth that.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

If this topic wasn't stupid to start with the gloves would be coming off now but there's nothing to fight.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

brian john said:


> I only do what I want to do. Well except when I have to do test reports....


 Well yeah but you run the company, as an apprentice would you have said no to doing some task. 

BTW paperwork sucks and I don't do stuff I don't want to do ether being one of the bosses has it's advantages.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Jlarson said:


> Well yeah but you run the company, as an apprentice would you have said no to doing some task. Myabe it's just me that thinks that way, it's how I was taught.
> 
> BTW paperwork sucks and I don't do stuff I don't want to do ether being the one of the bosses has it's advantages.


Yeah I was only in the office two days this week, this is the first year in 25 I have taken some extra time.


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## Forrester28 (Sep 3, 2010)

brian john said:


> GOING TO GET MY ASS KICKED, but if you cannot wire a track home after 6 months you are in the wrong business,


6 months??? It shouldn't take more than 3 or 4 houses to figure it out.


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## Forrester28 (Sep 3, 2010)

nitro71 said:


> If this topic wasn't stupid to start with the gloves would be coming off now but there's nothing to fight.


It's not stupid, it very logical and important.

Again, you must be one of those guys wallowing in the money from pulling MC and wiring up 2X4's. That's the only type of person who would disagree with my point.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Forrester28 said:


> 6 months??? It shouldn't take more than 3 or 4 houses to figure it out.


 
6 months is the max, I was wiring them on my own after 4-5 weeks


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

Forrester28 said:


> It's not stupid, it very logical and important.
> 
> Again, you must be one of those guys wallowing in the money from pulling MC and wiring up 2X4's. That's the only type of person who would disagree with my point.


Why even have licensing? Why require a contractors license? If we follow your train of thought to the end it should be laissez-faire_*.*_ Then our wiring can look like 3rd world countries, spagettied everywhere. How about lets get rid of OSHA and safety standards. How about Florida. I'd never buy a house there. Wired by whomever walks in off the street. That makes me confident.


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## Forrester28 (Sep 3, 2010)

nitro71 said:


> Why even have licensing? Why require a contractors license?


 That has absolutely nothing to do with anything I have discussed in this thread, NOTHING.


> If we follow your train of thought to the end it should be laissez-faire_*.*_
> Then our wiring can look like 3rd world countries, spagettied everywhere. How about lets get rid of OSHA and safety standards. How about Florida. I'd never buy a house there. Wired by whomever walks in off the street. That makes confident.


Again, this is just BS from someone who is worried that he might actually have to produce for his paycheck. You do understand that you are on the job to MAKE the contractor money, right? You're not supposed to cost them money...


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

I guess the point I have been trying to get across is quit your b1tching and do what ever getting the job done requires. Like I said I do all the fun controls but I also have to do paperwork, drawings, reports, I even clean waste water level controls(I won't go into anymore detail). I totally get not having the JW's doing little stuff all day, but that don't mean they should be above it that's all I want to say.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

Forrester28 said:


> That has absolutely nothing to do with anything I have discussed in this thread, NOTHING.
> 
> Again, this is just BS from someone who is worried that he might actually have to produce for his paycheck. You do understand that you are on the job to MAKE the contractor money, right? You're not supposed to cost them money...


You keep insulting me. I work very hard. GO **** YOURSELF! How's that sit with ya!


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## Forrester28 (Sep 3, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> I guess the point I have been trying to get across is quit your b1tching and do what ever getting the job done requires.


WHY? Why should I do that? I see my union going down in flames and I should just stand by and do nothing?

You're a real prize 



> I totally get not having the JW's doing little stuff all day, but that don't mean they should be above it that's all I want to say.


I have no problem at all sweeping the floor or cleaning up when it gets a bit slow and more work isn't laid out. I DO have a problem when 14 skilled and trained men making a high wage are called on a job to do 2 months worth of work that a high school kid could do. It's really hurting us. If you do the work that you say you do, you should feel the same way and know that you would stick with the higher rate if we did start a tiered rate system.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

nitro71 said:


> You keep insulting me. I work very hard. GO **** YOURSELF! How's that sit with ya!


Hey, look at post #80 and tell me what that reminds you of.


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## Forrester28 (Sep 3, 2010)

nitro71 said:


> You keep insulting me.


 You started with the insults from the very beginning. I do not respect you, I think you are a low life and I hate the fact that you and your kind stain my union.



> I work very hard. GO **** YOURSELF! How's that sit with ya!


It's exactly what I would expect from you. You haven't brought a single coherent thought into this discussion, go back in your hole.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

I'm done with this thread. This guy wants to hire cheap labor. That's the bottom line. I have no idea why he would be in the union at all. If you don't like the union get out. My shop is super busy while many non-union along with union shops are going under. It's not because we are lazy or not working hard. It's because we are skilled workers out there busting ass to make the company money.


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## Forrester28 (Sep 3, 2010)

nitro71 said:


> I'm done with this thread.


 FInally! You were done before it started. No one wants you here, go away.



> This guy wants to hire cheap labor. That's the bottom line.


 Exactly! I want simple, easy work to be performed by a lower class of worker who gets paid accordingly. I do NOT feel that every man is equal and I don't agree that a man who is working on the VFD's should make the same as a man who is jockeying pallets of fixtures around. SUE ME.



> I have no idea why he would be in the union at all.


 Because there are benefits that I enjoy. there are also downfalls that I would like to get rid of.


> If you don't like the union get out.


 There are a lot of things that I don't like about the country, should I just leave? Is that what you do if you don't like something, walk away? 

Or do you try and fix it? I know your answer already.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

------------------------------------------


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## Forrester28 (Sep 3, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> Forrester28 I'm sorry about the stuff I said, I don't want to get into some long drawn argument over it, ok.


You're a couple hours late.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Forrester28 said:


> You're a couple hours late.


------------------------------


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

nitro71 said:


> Why even have licensing? Why require a contractors license? If we follow your train of thought to the end it should be laissez-faire_*.*_ Then our wiring can look like 3rd world countries, spagettied everywhere. How about lets get rid of OSHA and safety standards. How about Florida. I'd never buy a house there. Wired by whomever walks in off the street. That makes me confident.


You are missing his point.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Forrester28 said:


> You're a couple hours late.


 
And you are missing his point...He is reaching his hand out in a gesture of friendship.


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## Forrester28 (Sep 3, 2010)

brian john said:


> And you are missing his point...He is reaching his hand out in a gesture of friendship.


I don't really like him very much, tho.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

brian john said:


> You are missing his point.


 I get what he is saying know, I really should read a little bit better before I open my big mouth(that can be my improvement for this year).

Let me see if I got it. The union is declining because they use skilled personnel (the ones getting payed the most) for stuff other (lower payed) personnel could do, so basically bad personnel management and making the cost of a job higher. Right? Originally, I thought he meant he didn't want to do the menial stuff just because(that's one of my biggest pet peeves).


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## Forrester28 (Sep 3, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> Originally, I thought he meant he didn't want to do the menial stuff just because(that's one of my biggest pet peeves).


Well, that is also true.

I WILL do the menial labor when necessary, it's usually as a filler. But it is most certainly not something that I want to do full time. You can call me high and mighty all you want, but I do NOT want my career to be carrying material and doing other mindless tasks. I've worked for a long time to achieve higher than that. 

Do you think a doctor would feel satisfied at the end of the day if he was serving coffee at the local diner?


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

Jlarson said:


> I get what he is saying know, I really should read a little bit better before I open my big mouth(that can be my improvement for this year).
> 
> Let me see if I got it. The union is declining because they use skilled personnel (the ones getting payed the most) for stuff other (lower payed) personnel could do, so basically bad personnel management and making the cost of a job higher. Right? Originally, I thought he meant he didn't want to do the menial stuff just because(that's one of my biggest pet peeves).


not bad personnel management...forced personnel management...

we bid a solar job about 18 months ago...12,000+ panels...worked with the customer...bid the job with union electricians (about 18-20) installing the power and equipment - and a roofing contractor (union) installing the panels...their labor rate was about 2/3 of a IBEW JW...the local who controlled this territory wouldn't work with us...

job ended up being done by another shop, union....took the contract for the same price we negotiated...had 75 IBEW men on site...payroll of about $150,000/week...job total was $1.6mil after material...they were there for more than 12 weeks...

don't know if the contractor is still in business...


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Forrester28 said:


> Do you think a doctor would feel satisfied at the end of the day if he was serving coffee at the local diner?


Now you equate yourself to a surgeon?? Compared to a waitress? I got alot to say about waitresses, alot end up in that line of work because tips are good enough to make ends barely meet with their kids who don't have a dad at home. They never had a shot at any kind of education, because they needed the steady income, and they get help from no one. Yes, you bet, I tip big.

Dude, JLARSON hit the nail on the head from the start. You're a prima donna. :laughing:


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## Forrester28 (Sep 3, 2010)

miller_elex said:


> Now you equate yourself to a surgeon??


 In what instance did I equate myself to a surgeon? I used a comparison to a doctor. I also used a comparison to a lawyer earlier. You can also insert artist, architect, or any other line of work where someone might care about what they do and actually want to do that type of work (instead of just wanting to bring home a paycheck and not give a crap what they have to do for it).

This tactic that you just used (saying that I equate myself to a doctor) is what the other jerkoffs have done thru out the thread, you detract from the point with your idiotic ramblings. I have no respect for you either.



> Dude, JLARSON hit the nail on the head from the start. You're a prima donna. :laughing:


Yes, because I want to do *electrical work* I am a prima donna. That's fine, I accept it, most other trades call us that anyway...


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## Forrester28 (Sep 3, 2010)

oldman said:


> bid the job with union electricians (about 18-20)


I thought you weren't signed with the local?


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

Forrester28 said:


> I thought you weren't signed with the local?


roundabout


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Forrester28 said:


> Well, that is also true.
> 
> I WILL do the menial labor when necessary, it's usually as a filler. But it is most certainly not something that I want to do full time. You can call me high and mighty all you want, but I do NOT want my career to be carrying material and doing other mindless tasks. I've worked for a long time to achieve higher than that.
> 
> Do you think a doctor would feel satisfied at the end of the day if he was serving coffee at the local diner?


 Well hell no, I wouldn't make a JW do little stuff when I could get helpers to do it for less meaning a lower job cost meaning a better chance of winning the project.


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

Jlarson said:


> Well hell no, I wouldn't make a JW do little stuff when I could get helpers to do it for less meaning a lower job cost meaning a better chance of winning the project.


bid a union job, pulling guys from the hall, for anything less than all JW's and see what happens...at least here in NJ...


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

oldman said:


> bid a union job, pulling guys from the hall, for anything less than all JW's and see what happens...at least here in NJ...


That would be pretty easy for me to do since, I'm not union.


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

Jlarson said:


> That would be pretty easy for me to do since, I'm not union.


then you're talking about cheese, when the conversation is about tea...


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## Forrester28 (Sep 3, 2010)

oldman said:


> then you're talking about cheese, when the conversation is about tea...


You're just figuring that out, huh? :laughing:


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

Forrester28 said:


> You're just figuring that out, huh? :laughing:


been around too many of 'your people' for the past few years...lost my ability to think quickly:laughing:


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

I just figured let's see what it's like on the other side.


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## Forrester28 (Sep 3, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> I just figured let's see what it's like on the other side.


We're livin large, yo.


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

I will take cheese any day if the other option is tea, I hate tea.


----------



## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Forrester28 said:


> I thought you weren't signed with the local?


If you joined here in the last couple days, yet you know Oldman's business, who hasn't been around in quite a while....

Then you are indeed a crap-hole Troll.

P.S. If you want to do more than just work foe a living, then go get a degree, prima donna.


----------



## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

slickvic277 said:


> Because most members here know me as being pro union but I'll go out on a limb and say that I wouldn't fall into the "stuck in the old school" mentality.


 


Just want to add something to the above statement for clarification reasons. 

Most union folks here, are diehard union supporters, but only when it's convienent for them. They really don't live by what they preach. 

Most also read as being anti-contractor types, unless their out doing side work for cash, while collecting unemployement benefits.


Why is that?


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Dnkldorf said:


> Just want to add something to the above statement for clarification reasons.
> 
> Most union folks here, are diehard union supporters, but only when it's convienent for them. They really don't live by what they preach.
> 
> ...


Because 1st year apprentices are schooled VERY HEAVY in this, union god, contractor devil.

Slick while a die in the wool union member does have a more open mind/approach than most of the kool aid drinkers. And he does post in the electrical sections (HE IS NEVER RIGHT, BUT DOES SHOW UP:blink::laughing::no:)

I do not doubt there are many contractors that are A*holes, but this is balanced by A^hole workers. There needs to be a balance and understanding for this to work.


----------



## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

From a different angle, Fathead28 says he doesn't believe he is worth what he's paid.

Do you believe a hedgefund manager is worth the $2million a day he is paid?

He is worth $23 a second?


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

miller_elex said:


> Do you believe a hedgefund manager is worth the $2million a day he is paid?
> 
> He is worth $23 a second?


They are worth what they can wrangle from who ever is responsible for seeing they are compensated.


----------



## voltz (Jun 2, 2010)

---------------


----------



## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

What bugs me is the Journeyman installing fixtures for scale, or unloading a truck might just get called later that night because a generator will not transfer. (switch over). So if we go by the OP's assumption, the Journeyman only gets top pay on the emergency call where he had to know his job and get laborers pay when hes doing menial labor.

I guess they should adjust a football players contract in direct relationship to the caliber of the opponent? Just because you are doing less meaningful work one minute does not mean you will not be in the schematics next. 
I for one know how hard and complicated this electrical work can be. I may have an easy day now and then, but usually it's hard work and can get as complicated as you want it to be.


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## MichealBentham (Sep 4, 2010)

John Valdes said:


> What bugs me is the Journeyman installing fixtures for scale, or unloading a truck might just get called later that night because a generator will not transfer. (switch over). So if we go by the OP's assumption, the Journeyman only gets top pay on the emergency call where he had to know his job and get laborers pay when hes doing menial labor.


 It seems more like a different classification is what this is about. You would have a JW doing the emergency call and a lower classifiaction doing the laborer work. Tile unions have tile setters and tile laborers to do the material humping and easier tasks such as grouting. The IBEW has different classifications at lower rates for things such as Tele-data. Why is it so wrong to have a classification for the manual labor and extremely easy tasks?


> I guess they should adjust a football players contract in direct relationship to the caliber of the opponent?


 Your football reference is a good one. Does the kicker make the same salary as the quarterback? Nope, they all get paid accordingly based on their skills and talents. What's wrong with that?


> Just because you are doing less meaningful work one minute does not mean you will not be in the schematics next.


 That's perfectly understandable, those guys deserve to be paid top rate. But the point here is when work is 100% mindless labor for the entirety of the job, how can you justify a rate that is based on skills and experienced?


----------



## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

exactly...why would the local here in NJ require A journeymen (at $85+/hr) install solar panels instead of B Men ($40+/hr)...to clarify, the local would not allow us to use B men on the project...only A men and A apprenctices...


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## s.kelly (Mar 20, 2009)

brian john said:


> Because 1st year apprentices are schooled VERY HEAVY in this, union god, contractor devil.


Not here:no:

Actually most of the instructors in our local are about teaching that the contractors have to make money. And I would say generally, apprentices in this local spend more of their time with "regulars" who are probably more likely to be accused of favoring the contractor than the local.


----------



## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

> brian john;280271]Because 1st year apprentices are schooled VERY HEAVY in this, union god, contractor devil.


This hasn't been my experience. The apprentice instructors all to a man preach the right things in school. The culture of "us vs them" is handed down in the field from old disgruntled JW to young impressionable apprentices. Even as "radical" as I may come off, I always want the contractors to succeed. Without that, there's no job for us.

Seems pretty simple, but most can't grasp the concept.



> Slick while a die in the wool union member does have a more open mind/approach than most of the kool aid drinkers. And he does post in the electrical sections (HE IS NEVER RIGHT, BUT DOES SHOW UP:blink::laughing::no:)


I'll take this as a compliment. I can feel the sarcasm oozing through my monitor.:thumbup:



> I do not doubt there are many contractors that are A*holes, but this is balanced by A^hole workers. There needs to be a balance and understanding for this to work.


True dat.


----------



## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Dnkldorf said:


> Just want to add something to the above statement for clarification reasons.
> 
> Most union folks here, are diehard union supporters, but only when it's convienent for them. They really don't live by what they preach.
> 
> ...



I guess this is a shot at me. I'm pretty consistent in my opinions, at the very least you have give me that.


----------



## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

MichealBentham said:


> But the point here is when work is 100% mindless labor for the entirety of the job, how can you justify a rate that is based on skills and experienced?


I like how all the new trolls are coincidentally union-busters, or are phony union men trying to portray us in a bad light by being militant.

All you fakers shine through for who you really are. 

I am all about good business, but you imposter whining uncle toms are all about widening your margins on the backs of good men.


----------



## 120 Volt Sparky (Sep 4, 2010)

MichealBentham said:


> It seems more like a different classification is what this is about. You would have a JW doing the emergency call and a lower classifiaction doing the laborer work. Tile unions have tile setters and tile laborers to do the material humping and easier tasks such as grouting. The IBEW has different classifications at lower rates for things such as Tele-data. Why is it so wrong to have a classification for the manual labor and extremely easy tasks?
> Your football reference is a good one. Does the kicker make the same salary as the quarterback? Nope, they all get paid accordingly based on their skills and talents. What's wrong with that?
> That's perfectly understandable, those guys deserve to be paid top rate. But the point here is when work is 100% mindless labor for the entirety of the job, how can you justify a rate that is based on skills and experienced?


:sleep1:


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

I was installing a lot of infrared heating a few years back and it involved dodging overhead rail cranes. I had a helper whose job was to foot my ladder. After a couple of days he told me that he did not feel as if he was earning his money, just footing my ladder and watching for cranes. He asked me to cut his pay. That's the truth. I told him that we could make a deal and that was that I'll pay him the current amount when he is doing menial work, and when I needed him to do very technical work, I would not pay him any more. Electrical work is electrical work; Not all of it is technical, but it rates the pay. I'll bet your lawyer doesn't lower his rates when he is at the copying machine.


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## 121 Volt Sparky (Sep 5, 2010)

120 Volt Sparky said:


> :sleep1:


:yawn:


....


----------



## 121 Volt Sparky (Sep 5, 2010)

RIVETER said:


> I'll bet your lawyer doesn't lower his rates when he is at the copying machine.


That's is an apple to orange comparison.

No, the lawyer doesn't lower his rate. But he does hire a lower paid secretary if he needs to make that many copies.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

121 Volt Sparky said:


> That's is an apple to orange comparison.
> 
> No, the lawyer doesn't lower his rate. But he does hire a lower paid secretary if he needs to make that many copies.


How much are you worth and hour with the electrical knowledge you have?


----------



## 121 Volt Sparky (Sep 5, 2010)

RIVETER said:


> How much are you worth and hour with the electrical knowledge you have?


I'm worth a lot, which is why it's a shame to pay me so much to do manual labor that a $10/hr employee can do. What a waste. I wonder how bad that looks to the outside world, you know, the customers......

But hey, we're doing a great job with our 9% market share (and slipping) so why not keep it up? 

Hey Riv, I still say that you were cooler when I thought you were a power saver troll.


----------



## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

As a JW I have used my skills and experience over the years and feel that I always earned my pay. I was always a company guy and was properly utilized. Work got slow, now I am going out on jobs from the hall, and I feel like I am robbing the contractor sometimes. `

Besides this paragraph making little or no sense, I can appreciate this confused soul having a guilty conscious.It kinda reminds me of Brian who comes across as an intelligent person who is an union contractor but on occasion takes jabs at the IBEW,Brotherhood and or members on occasion, as if there was some dark secret hidden from the average view point.
I would hope the contractor knew what the pay rate was before he bid the job, got the said job,put a call in at the hall, hired you and other members.
As far as the solar photovoltaic class, I agree with Brian that it will be passe in short order.The class I took was an engineering class geared towards training persons to become instructors, perhaps an over qualified contractor. Yes I have done several different solar arrays including roof tops and although boring and repetitious, you must apply yourself to get the job done, which could be physical and or mental. 
Are you doing the work that the contractor ask of you? Do you apply yourself to the best of your ability? If the answer is yes then you should have had no questions about guilty feelings.


----------



## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

the OP is not saying to pay an individual a different amount for different levels of difficulty...he's saying that the union's inability to allow the right skill level (and consequently, pay level) employee handle the correct tasks...

that the union's are destroying themselves by requiring a contractor to have 3 JW's and 1 apprentice on a job that could easily be done by 1 JW and 2 - 3rd yr apprentices...

just like a non-union shop would man the job...


----------



## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Most electricians are their own worst enemy. We are so proud of our knowledge and those of us who really study, and try to be good labor, as well, tend to think that "This is nothing". And we give others the impression that we think it's a "snap". We go to a friend's house and wire a receptacle and just drink a beer with him. Next week he calls again and we believe that he must think we're pretty good, when in fact we are just cheap. Your neighbors and your friends gradually lose respect for your time. If you don't believe that, just wait until you have a few more years in the trade. My point is that what we do, if we do it correctly, is is worth quite a lot and we have to learn to respect ourselves too. To the OP, just don't sell yourself short.


----------



## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

Wow I go to a BBQ and look at all the drama I miss


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

gold said:


> Wow I go to a BBQ and look at all the drama I miss



Eh, Mostly just troll stuff.


----------



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

120 Volt Sparky said:


> :sleep1:


Gee, you joined today, your first two posts have been sleepy.


I wonder if you are the no good troll  .......... go play in traffic.


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## 120 Volt Sparky (Sep 4, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> Gee, you joined today, your first two posts have been sleepy.
> 
> 
> I wonder if you are the no good troll  .......... go play in traffic.


:sleep1:


----------



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

120 Volt Sparky said:


> :sleep1:


Did you need help with that post?


----------



## 121 Volt Sparky (Sep 5, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> Gee, you joined today, your first two posts have been sleepy.
> 
> 
> I wonder if you are the no good troll  .......... go play in traffic.


We are not the same person. I am 1 better than he.

You do realize that there are many more than 1 troll here, right?

FWIW< I am the coolest out of all of them, the most handsome too. I am union so I am the smartest and richest as well, of course.


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## 120 Volt Sparky (Sep 4, 2010)

121 Volt Sparky said:


> FWIW< I am the coolest out of all of them, the most handsome too. I am union so I am the smartest and richest as well, of course.


:furious:


----------



## 121 Volt Sparky (Sep 5, 2010)

120 Volt Sparky said:


> :furious:


Sorry bro, the truth hurts, huh?


----------



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

121 Volt Sparky said:


> We are not the same person. I am 1 better than he.



Which is still well below the crap found under a dead maggot. :thumbsup:




> You do realize that there are many more than 1 troll here, right?


Yeah there are lot if dipchits in the world.


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## 120 Volt Sparky (Sep 4, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> Did you need help with that post?


Oh Bob! :laughing:


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## 121 Volt Sparky (Sep 5, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> Which is still well below the crap found under a dead maggot.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm rubber and you're glue. 


Notice the "you're" spelled right. A non-union rat wouldn't know how to do that.


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

oldman said:


> the OP is not saying to pay an individual a different amount for different levels of difficulty...he's saying that the union's inability to allow the right skill level (and consequently, pay level) employee handle the correct tasks...
> 
> that the union's are destroying themselves by requiring a contractor to have 3 JW's and 1 apprentice on a job that could easily be done by 1 JW and 2 - 3rd yr apprentices...
> 
> just like a non-union shop would man the job...


 I am scooping what you are pooping but the last roof top solar array I did was through a line local(I do not understand that one) and the ratio was 1 jw-2 apprentice-2groundsmen. The solar array we did in Blythe had 1 jw-2 apprentice-2 trainee's(labor)
My other thought on this is that the union contractors are still bidding work and they have their doors open therefore that dog does not hunt. I know that the unions have problems just as many others who are trying to make ends meet in these drastic economic times. The thread starter to me comes across as maybe being confused about where they are headed and subconsciously wanting a pat on the back for a decision that causes anxiety within this twisted soul. I have my concerns about the IBEW myself but I have never got to the point I felt the need to vent on a board because I felt like I was getting paid to much.
Brian where do you get your info about the teachings of a first year apprentice?By your statement it would lead me to believe that you have never had the experience. When I went through the program it was common knowledge that we were there(as 1st year) to do any grunt work the jw's needed done in order for the contractor to make money if not then we would be gone. I help out from time to time with the program and not once has anything like what you posted Brian come out of any instructors mouth or they would be gone.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

120 Volt Sparky said:


> Oh Bob! :laughing:


Peter????????? Is that you?


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Brother Noah said:


> I
> Brian where do you get your info about the teachings of a first year apprentice?By your statement it would lead me to believe that you have never had the experience. .



I get my information from mechanics that went through the program and the apprentices I know that are in the program, first year is spent in the history of the IBEW which stresses drinking the kool aid


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

brian john said:


> I get my information from mechanics that went through the program and the apprentices I know that are in the program,* first year is spent in the history of the IBEW which stresses drinking the kool aid*



I won't doubt what your saying. But the History of the IBEW doesn't teach the "us vs them" attitude, quite the contrary. I'm telling ya, it comes from the men in the field.

Here's the history, exactly how it's taught in the apprenticeship.

http://ibew.org/IBEW/history/Form 169 - History and Structure.pdf


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Damn this is still going on?


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

slickvic277 said:


> Here's the history, exactly how it's taught in the apprenticeship.
> 
> http://ibew.org/IBEW/history/Form 169 - History and Structure.pdf


Yeah, let the IBEW tell us how great they are, that will be truthful and unbiased.:laughing::no::whistling2:


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

brian john said:


> Peter????????? Is that you?


I have been thinking that since post #80.


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## 121 Volt Sparky (Sep 5, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> I have been thinking that since post #80.


Peter is not the thread starter, I was.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> Yeah, let the IBEW tell us how great they are, that will be truthful and unbiased.:laughing::no::whistling2:



edited.......


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

gold said:


> Wow I go to a BBQ and look at all the drama I miss


Hey gold, I have a job at a scrap yard coming up since the metal heap is in contact with earth can I use it as an electrode?


----------



## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

Jlarson said:


> Hey gold, I have a job at a scrap yard coming up since the metal heap is in contact with earth can I use it as an electrode?


if you *MUST*


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

slickvic277 said:


> _Why bother.....This thread should be dead already. _


I figured I killed it last night.


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

gold said:


> if you *MUST*


:laughing:


----------



## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

Lets just say unions suck and we will call this thread a wrap?? wuddya say?

And yes RAT shops do beat there employees. So what.


:laughing:


Breathe Vic I'm just kidding


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

gold said:


> Lets just say unions suck and we will call this thread a wrap?? wuddya say?
> 
> And yes RAT shops do beat there employees. So what.
> 
> ...


You mean I should have been beating the guys all this time?


----------



## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Jlarson said:


> You mean I should have been beating the guys all this time?


That's why its called a reacharound. Common courtesy.


----------



## millerdrr (Jun 26, 2009)

Where the hell are all these great jobs? Out of a hundred or so local electricians I know that work around here, not a one makes outside of the mid-teens per hour, level of experience irrelevant. I once saw an ad for an industrial electrician that paid $20, but that was just over the state line in Danville VA. Around here, the only way to get $73/hr is if the door to the office has your name above it.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

millerdrr said:


> Where the hell are all these great jobs? Out of a hundred or so local electricians I know that work around here, not a one makes outside of the mid-teens per hour, level of experience irrelevant. I once saw an ad for an industrial electrician that paid $20, but that was just over the state line in Danville VA. Around here, the only way to get $73/hr is if the door to the office has your name above it.


You near Danville?


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

millerdrr said:


> Where the hell are all these great jobs? Out of a hundred or so local electricians I know that work around here, not a one makes outside of the mid-teens per hour, level of experience irrelevant. I once saw an ad for an industrial electrician that paid $20, but that was just over the state line in Danville VA. Around here, the only way to get $73/hr is if the door to the office has your name above it.



Come on man, it's merit shop country. If you really, really, really work hard and deserve it........you can make like a whole $19 or maybe even $20 per hour.:laughing: But if your only gettin' $15 per hour, well that must be all your worth.:thumbup: Because we all know the merit shop's pay guy's so well and offer you what your *MERIT* dictates. 

:laughing:. Yeah, and the unions are the one's who spread propaganda.:whistling2:




_(warning; the sarcasm may be to much for your computor adjust accordingly)_


----------



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

slickvic277 said:


> Because we all know the merit shop's pay guy's so well and offer you what your *MERIT* dictates.


Rarely will a person feel they are making what they are worth. And some 'electricians' are only worth mid teens pay.

I just can't get behind overpaying a guy just because they feel they are entitled to high pay to do they job they choose. If they are not good at that job they do not deserve the pay of those that are good at the job.





> :laughing:. Yeah, and the unions are the one's who spread propaganda.:whistling2:


More time than not yes, this boards Noah's and others prove that point regularly.

They ignore any first hand accounts presented and just keep massaging the unions calk.


----------



## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

> Bob Badger;280728]Rarely will a person feel they are making what they are worth. And some 'electricians' are only worth mid teens pay.


It seems people in position to make these decisions think that just about everyone is worth $12 per hour. 



> I just can't get behind overpaying a guy just because they feel they are entitled to high pay to do they job they choose. If they are not good at that job they do not deserve the pay of those that are good at the job.


So where's the line for over paid or under paid? Is it $16, $12, $18 ??????
Bob your a PM/estimator right???? Obviously you would like people to make as little as possible, this way you can earn a higher percentage. That's cool. I couldn't do that job though, I have to look in the mirror everyday.





> More time than not yes, this boards Noah's and others prove that point regularly.
> 
> They ignore any first hand accounts presented and just keep massaging the unions calk.



Just like all the nonsense that the die hard merit shoppy guy's spread. Everyone's making close to the scale, got great benefits, and can retire on there 401k. 
:whistling2:


----------



## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

slickvic277 said:


> I'm pretty consistent in my opinions, at the very least you have give me that.


Yes you are. 

And you defend these opinons respectfully .......that makes you okie dokie in my book.:thumbsup:


----------



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

slickvic277 said:


> It seems people in position to make these decisions think that just about everyone is worth $12 per hour.


Oh I forgot, you do not think people have any ability to say no to a poor job offer. 

Fact is there are not enough openings for the number of electricians, that means our value has dropped.

Some people must leave the trade and find other work. 





> So where's the line for over paid or under paid? Is it $16, $12, $18 ??????


That should be market driven, not contractually driven.

When times where good the company gave away a brand new pickup to the person that got the most new hires.

They gave us bonuses and incentives to work harder and we all enjoyed it, now the pendulum has swung the other way and some will have to leave the trade. 



> Bob your a PM/estimator right???? Obviously you would like people to make as little as possible, this way you can earn a higher percentage.


I am paid buy the hour I don't get any bonus for riding the guys harder. :no:

However some guys do count on me to keep the jobs coming in so that they have a job to go to each morning.

To do that I must be competitive, some of my guys are in the low 20s some are in the mid 40s all with vacations holidays, free training, health, dental etc.




> That's cool. I couldn't do that job though, I have to look in the mirror everyday.


F- You and I mean that go F yourself, the guys that work under me respect me and are not treated badly so keep that BS for others. You have no idea what you are talking about as far as how I treat employess.




> Just like all the nonsense that the die hard merit shoppy guy's spread. Everyone's making close to the scale, got great benefits, and can retire on there 401k.
> :whistling2:


Whatever dude, keep those blinders on tight or else you may just realize the union is just one way to get those things, another way is to make your own way. 

Either way can go well or bad.


----------



## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

Bob, you are pissing into a fan, uphill.....it's just a waste of time...


----------



## Widestance_Politics (Jun 2, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> Either way can go well or bad.


Is that the voice of reason?.......Anyone else wanna get in on this and admit that there needs to be some type of balance? I think it would be bad if the nation was entirely union or non-union....I have worked on a jobsite that was manned half Union and half non-union. Both factions were on seperate areas of the site but could see the others working. Being in direct view of the "competition" makes for a good end product for the customer.....and I feel that in the end some myths were crushed on both sides after witnessing each other at work.....


----------



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Widestance_Politics said:


> Is that the voice of reason?.......


I have expressed that before and so has Vic at times. :thumbsup:



> Anyone else wanna get in on this and admit that there needs to be some type of balance?


I admit it. 



> I think it would be bad if the nation was entirely union or non-union....


I have to agree as well.


----------



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

oldman said:


> Bob, you are pissing into a fan, uphill.....it's just a waste of time...


Yeah but it is doing this on the forum or putting on a 'wife beater' getting ripped and taking out my frustrations on the family. 










Just kidding, I don't own a wife beater. :no:


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

I'm going to stick with what I have always said, union and non union both have there good and bad points and you can argue it till you wear out your keyboard cause the other side is just as hard headed and stubborn as you.


----------



## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

:yawn: :sleep1: :yawn: :sleep1: :yawn:


----------



## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> I'm going to stick with what I have always said, union and non union both have there good and bad points and you can argue it till you wear out your keyboard cause the other side is just as hard headed and stubborn as you.


It really is that simple.


----------



## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

Jlarson said:


> I'm going to stick with what I have always said, union and non union both have there good and bad points and you can argue it till you wear out your keyboard cause the other side is just as hard headed and stubborn as you.


 AMEN!!! It sure seems like almost every topic ends up Union verse on-union.


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

electricmanscott said:


> It really is that simple.


:yes: I think this whole thread proves it pretty well.


----------



## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

Jlarson said:


> :yes: I think this whole thread proves it pretty well.


 Every thread in the Union topic proves it. People are still talking about the samething over and over and over.


----------



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

william1978 said:


> Every thread in the Union topic proves it. People are still talking about the samething over and over and over.



Yes, some of us enjoy pissing into the wind. :laughing:

No one says you have click into it as you already decided it is not what you like.


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> Yes, some of us enjoy pissing into the wind. :laughing:
> 
> No one says you have click into it as you already decided it is not what you like.


I did that for like 2 hours yesterday. Ticked off a couple of (or maybe just one bipolar) union members, good times, good times.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

I have no axe to grind either way. Would it be great if every electrician could make union wages and get the benifets, yes. Is this a free country, sorta. Everyone should have a right to try to earn a living, legaly, as they see fit. As far as the OP, I think he has a axe to grind vs the union and licensing in general. Caught me on a few beers and pissed me off. Maybe on these solar arrays there needs to be an exception to the rule if it is unskilled labor intensive. Every other electrical project I've been on needs skilled electricians. I can't think of very many instances where you didn't want/need skilled people. As far as the comments that residential is super easy and anyone can do it I don't agree. You can not learn enough about residential by wiring a few tract homes to be considered skilled in my book. I'm not a hardcore resi guy but I've done enough to respect those that are.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

nitro71 said:


> I have no axe to grind either way. Would it be great if every electrician could make union wages and get the benifets, yes. Is this a free country, sorta. Everyone should have a right to try to earn a living, legaly, as they see fit. As far as the OP, I think he has a axe to grind vs the union and licensing in general. Caught me on a few beers and pissed me off. Maybe on these solar arrays there needs to be an exception to the rule if it is unskilled labor intensive. Every other electrical project I've been on needs skilled electricians. I can't think of very many instances where you didn't want/need skilled people. As far as the comments that residential is super easy and anyone can do it I don't agree. You can not learn enough about residential by wiring a few tract homes to be considered skilled in my book. I'm not a hardcore resi guy but I've done enough to respect those that are.


That was just me pissed off no alcohol involved.


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## Forrester (Sep 5, 2010)

I am the thread starter, I can't get into that account (I wonder why  ).


nitro71 said:


> As far as the OP, I think he has a axe to grind vs the union and licensing in general.


 Yes, i do. My "axe to grind" is the fact that the union has such a small market share, and no one is willing to do anything to change that. 



> Maybe on these solar arrays there needs to be an exception to the rule if it is unskilled labor intensive.


 It's not just solar arrays. Many, if not most jobs have many tasks that don't need highly skilled labor to accomplish. Tell me, what part of pulling MC homeruns do you need a $73/hr JW for? If a 1st year apprentice could do it, what does that tell you?


> Every other electrical project I've been on needs skilled electricians. I can't think of very many instances where you didn't want/need skilled people.


 You're absolutely right, EVERY job needs skilled electrician. But that doesn't mean that every task needs one. The whole point of this thread is to have a different classification for some tasks, similar to the tele-data class. Tell me, would you man all the tele-data work on a job with "A" JW's for $73/hr or would you use the tele-data men for $50/hr? If you agree with using tele-data men, then what's so bad about making one more split into another classification? Maybe call it the "Humping material and throwing light fixtures up" class. Cause putting fixtures in the grid and twisting 2 wires together for 8 hours a day is not something that commands $73/hr. That right there is one of the reasons, IMO, that we are so far behind.



> As far as the comments that residential is super easy and anyone can do it I don't agree.


 I never said that resi was super easy, I said that *roping a house* shouldn't take that long to learn. That is day laborer work around here, since no license is required (and you wonder why i have a problem with licensing?).


> You can not learn enough about residential by wiring a few tract homes to be considered skilled in my book.


 You don't have to be skilled to wire a house, it's manual labor with very little skill or knowledge.


> I'm not a hardcore resi guy but I've done enough to respect those that are.


I respect resi service men and the men who run the jobs, but that doesn't change the fact that tract homes require nothing more than day laborers with a sparky stopping by once or twice a day to check it out and answer any questions.


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## Forrester (Sep 5, 2010)

miller_elex said:


> I like how all the new trolls are coincidentally union-busters, or are phony union men trying to portray us in a bad light by being militant.


I like the way instead of refuting a single thing that I said, you just pull out the troll card and use that.

I guess it's because you can't argue the facts I have brought to the table, so you attack me personally instead.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

You can think whatever you like but honestly I'd never higher you. 

Lets talk about pulling MC home runs. They need to be labeled properly. Routed properly. Secured properly. They need to get done in a timely manner. There is a learning curve to pulling MC. You are also usually working in an environment where there are other trades all over you. It takes skill to learn how to work efficiently in that environment. By the time you explained to a laborer how to pull the MC, what to label it as, how to secure it and he learns how to work around all the other trades, i'll have all the other home runs done.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

miller_elex said:


> I like how all the new trolls are coincidentally union-busters, or are phony union men trying to portray us in a bad light by being militant.
> 
> All you fakers shine through for who you really are.
> 
> I am all about good business, but you imposter whining uncle toms are all about widening your margins on the backs of good men.


I agree some of the trolls do exactly what you say, but we also get the ones that say stuff like ...


_'My booss meks me work fo no mony ands wez have to bring out own toolzz.'_

That is not a union basher.


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## Forrester (Sep 5, 2010)

nitro71 said:


> You can think whatever you like but honestly I'd never higher you.


 You're not in a position to hire me, hell, you can't even spell it. 


> Lets talk about pulling MC home runs. They need to be labeled properly. Routed properly. Secured properly. They need to get done in a timely manner. There is a learning curve to pulling MC.


 Everything you said is correct. Yet, when I put a 1st or 2nd year apprentice on the job, they always get it done right. That's $25 or $35/hr instead of $73/hr. You starting to see the difference?



> You are also usually working in an environment where there are other trades all over you. It takes skill to learn how to work efficiently in that environment. By the time you explained to a laborer how to pull the MC, what to label it as, how to secure it and he learns how to work around all the other trades, i'll have all the other home runs done.


You wouldn't need to explain to a laborer how to do it, he would have learned on the other jobs he was at before. Maybe a 1 or 2 year apprenticeship for this classification is in order.

I never said that I had a definitive answer, I simply said that there is a problem. If you think pulling MC day in and day out is really worth $73/hr plus other benefits like WC, unemployment, etc.- you are simply crazy.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Forrester said:


> I like the way instead of refuting a single thing that I said, you just pull out the troll card and use that.


No, roping dwellings is not day laborer work. It doesn't sound like you've ever roped a dwelling.

No, pulling miles of MC is not laborer work.

Hauling tubs and panels is apprentice work.

We have a great gift called the NEC, and you spit upon it.

You belong as an EC in Mexico, you could wire up circuits with lamp cord and speaker wire, and avoid those unnecessary expenditures on things like romex and circuit breakers. #24awg makes a good overcurrent protection device. God knows, there's plenty of children standing around to hire off the street.

Get the hell on, worthless waste of troll crap.


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## Forrester (Sep 5, 2010)

miller_elex said:


> No, roping dwellings is not day laborer work. It doesn't sound like you've ever roped a dwelling.


 Yes, it is. No, I have not roped a new house, but I know many, many contractors who use unskilled labor off the street who learn what to do very quickly.


> No, pulling miles of MC is not laborer work.


 Sure it is.


> We have a great gift called the NEC, and you spit upon it.


 WTF does the NEC have to do with this??? Lol, you're really reaching with this one...


> You belong as an EC in Mexico, you could wire up circuits with lamp cord and speaker wire, and avoid those unnecessary expenditures on things like romex and circuit breakers. #24awg makes a good overcurrent protection device. God knows, there's plenty of children standing around to hire off the street.


 Again, what does that have to do with ANYTHING I have said? Just because MC can be pulling effectively by a 1st year apprentice and doesn't require $73/jr JW's, it doesn't mean that lampcord needs to be used. You are fishing because you have no other argument whatsoever.


> Get the hell on, worthless waste of troll crap.


Again, you can't refute what I said so you make up long, idiotic stories about 24gauge wire and trolling.

You are very transparent.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

I agree that my spelling is sometimes not perfect. Doesn't mean that my points are not valid. 

"Everything you said is correct. Yet, when I put a 1st or 2nd year apprentice on the job, they always get it done right. That's $25 or $35/hr instead of $73/hr. You starting to see the difference?"

Union apprentices make near as much as a journeyman so your point doesn't really hold water.

Seems that you would like to create a work environment where you run around baby sitting lesser skilled workers. It's hard enough riding herd on apprentices and JW's let alone those that are not even up to that skill level. If you think you're going to come on the forum here and convice everyone that they should hire unskilled workers for their projects I don't think it's going to happen. Union or non-union. Look at Bob Badger, I doubt he would want laborers working on his projects. Even his large underground one he showed off. Not sure who you are trying to convince with your arguments.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

Forrester said:


> No, I have not roped a new house, but I know many, many contractors who use unskilled labor off the street who learn what to do very quickly.


Trust me, you don't want to live in that house.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Pulling MC is mindless labor work and I will not put a top paid guy on it.

Much of our trade is mindless assembly line work.


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## Forrester (Sep 5, 2010)

nitro71 said:


> "Everything you said is correct. Yet, when I put a 1st or 2nd year apprentice on the job, they always get it done right. That's $25 or $35/hr instead of $73/hr. You starting to see the difference?"
> Union apprentices make near as much as a journeyman so your point doesn't really hold water.


 A 1st year apprentice here makes 40% of journeyman rate. A second year makes 50%. How in the holy f*ck could you say that is "near as much as journeyman rate"???

Do you really believe the things that you say? 


> Seems that you would like to create a work environment where you run around baby sitting lesser skilled workers.


 Isn't that the way all jobs work? The more skilled and experienced employee watches over and lays work out for the lesser skilled and experienced employees? :laughing::laughing::laughing:


> Look at Bob Badger, I doubt he would want laborers working on his projects.


 Do you think Bob Badger pays the guys moving material on his jobs $73/hr? Do you think he pays the guys who do nothing more than pull MC the same rate as the "A-team" guys who do the more skilled work on the jobs? Do you think he pays the service men the same as the guy who moves pallets of lights around? NO, you only find that in the union. Maybe Bob will tell you how he does it.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

I don't agree with everything that Forrester has said, but I think his overall point is valid:

Union share of the market is declining. This is across the board, in almost every union, not just IBEW. It will keep declining unless something changes. Obviously there is something wrong. 

Unions aren't necessary in every instance all the time, but it will be a really bad day for the American worker when unions are only learned about in history classes.

So, the question is, how do you stop the bleeding? Forrester has his ideas. What are yours?

-John


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## Forrester (Sep 5, 2010)

nitro71 said:


> Trust me, you don't want to live in that house.


Why not??? :laughing:

You act like hammering boxes, drilling holes, and pulling wire thru said holes into said boxes is rocket science. Maybe we should have doctors do it from now on :laughing:

Like I said, much residential work is complicated and I don't mean to disrespect the work that the men do. But roping simple houses, especially tract houses, is not something that requires a 5 year apprenticeship and a resume full of long time electrical experience. It's something that a kid out of high school can learn in a few months and be productive. It is something that day laborers commonly do.

Go ask Romex Racer, he'll tell ya.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Big John said:


> I don't agree with everything that Forrester has said, but I think his overall point is valid:
> 
> Union share of the market is declining. This is across the board, in almost every union, not just IBEW. It will keep declining unless something changes. Obviously there is something wrong.
> 
> ...


I don't know if I want the bleeding stopped, I for one would love to see the day where we were all just electricians, with none of the non union, union crap.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

I just checked the wage scales and you are right on that. I only recalled the 4-6th tiers. You can hire apprentices and have them do those jobs. Nothing wrong with that at all. And there's nothing wrong with having your less skilled guys do MC. I still don't buy into your viewpoint. Most projects in this trade benefit from skilled workers. Go faster, smoother and get done with less headache. You're pretty much a jerk though and spend way to much time insulting people who don't agree with you. It's very easy to do that over the internet.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

F***er, go down that road if you want, move to Texas.

No union is going to tell you how to get the job done there.
No licensing will hinder your competition.

Go, live, work, in your new labor nirvana.

With CE program, guys who already have the skills, and work for non-union EC's are being put to work, for cheaper, and taking away from non-union EC's pool of available labor. Its utilizing an existing resource that can be used against us.

Where you are going, a distinction must be made from CE program, at the bottom of that slippery slope is child labor and serfdom.


Laborers rope houses where you live, its a shame. Just like all the guys who get 10-99'd for installing DISH Network. What else do you want to give away??


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## Forrester (Sep 5, 2010)

nitro71 said:


> I just checked the wage scales and you are right on that. I only recalled the 4-6th tiers. You can hire apprentices and have them do those jobs. Nothing wrong with that at all. And there's nothing wrong with having your less skilled guys do MC.


Here's the problem: The less skilled guys usually are the ones doing it, but they are being paid the same thing as the highly skilled guys. There are ratios of JW to apprentices that have to be followed. those ratios are no where near the ratio of highly skilled work vs. lower skilled work (such as MC pulling) required on the job. 




> I still don't buy into your viewpoint.


 Because you are not listening.


> Most projects in this trade benefit from skilled workers.


 You're right, we NEED skilled labor, but not as much. Read that over again, that is what I have been saying.



> Go faster, smoother and get done with less headache.


 Chances are the 21 year old 2nd year apprentice is faster up and down a ladder installing light fixtures or pulling MC than the highly skilled JW who has been working for 25 years. 


> You're pretty much a jerk though and spend way to much time insulting people who don't agree with you.


I've been attacked from every angle in this thread. Quit your belly aching, this is a man's world. If you can't take me correcting your spelling, you need to go sit at the kid's table.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

BTW, F***er isn't an IBEW member. 

He's a troll, who is on the outside looking in, and jealous of what he sees.

He sees people who are paid a living wage and feels scorned because the boys won't let him in for some reason.


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## Forrester (Sep 5, 2010)

miller_elex said:


> F***er, go down that road if you want, move to Texas.


 I don't want to. 


> With CE program, guys who already have the skills, and work for non-union EC's are being put to work, for cheaper, and taking away from non-union EC's pool of available labor. Its utilizing an existing resource that can be used against us.


 If that were true, I would agree with it. but the CW/CE program in my local is being used by the contractors to do the same labor for a lower wage. It was one giant concession.


> Laborers rope houses where you live, its a shame.


 They do it where you live too. Highly skilled electrician very rarely do it. Why would a contractor waste the talent?


> Just like all the guys who get 10-99'd for installing DISH Network. What else do you want to give away??


 What would that have to do with this discussion?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

nitro71 said:


> . As far as the comments that residential is super easy and anyone can do it I don't agree. You can not learn enough about residential by wiring a few tract homes to be considered skilled in my book. I'm not a hardcore resi guy but I've done enough to respect those that are.


There is a difference between a track home and a custom home, there is a big difference between a track home and being able to do residential service, there is a big difference between being able to wire a track home and being an electrician.

But with less than a year in the trade I was running crews wiring high rise apartments and I did all the trouble shooting and repairs and if a dolt like myself could do this, pretty much anyone can. 

Have you every driven by a track home project and looked at who is doing the wiring? Looks a few levels lower than it was than when I was wiring them. THIS MAYBE JUST A VA THING?


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## Forrester (Sep 5, 2010)

miller_elex said:


> BTW, F***er isn't an IBEW member.
> 
> He's a troll, who is on the outside looking in, and jealous of what he sees.
> 
> He sees people who are paid a living wage and feels scorned because the boys won't let him in for some reason.


As I said earlier in the thread, I am a member of 102. You don't have a single stitch of evidence to prove differently.

If I was going to lie, I would say I was 164 :thumbup::laughing:


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

There you go with the insults again. I bet in real life you're just a *****. Someone who doesn't want to get his hands dirty obviously. Say that to a man in real life and watch your ass get mopped all over the floor. Your wife probably has you by the short hairs when you're not being a keyboard commando.


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## Forrester (Sep 5, 2010)

nitro71 said:


> There you go with the insults again.


I got a guy here calling me F***er like a 12 year old, yet you are calling ME out for insults?? LOL, how biased can you prove yourself to be??


> I bet in real life you're just a *****. Someone who doesn't want to get his hands dirty obviously. Say that to a man in real life and watch your ass get mopped all over the floor. Your wife probably has you by the short hairs when you're not being a keyboard commando.


 LOL, anything else? :thumbup:

And yet again, you didn't refute anything that I said, you just took a sideroad to cry about a different topic.


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## millerdrr (Jun 26, 2009)

Brian john, I live in Greensboro, but I work out of North Wilkesboro, and all of the electricians I know are also employed in Wilkes. I'll admit, pay is a bit better in Greensboro.

Guys, Texas _does _require a license to run MC. It's a BS class lasting a few hours, but a license, nonetheless. 

EDIT Greensboro is just south of Danville. About an hours drive


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Forrester said:


> The less skilled guys usually are the ones doing it, but they are being paid the same thing as the highly skilled guys. There are ratios of JW to apprentices that have to be followed. those ratios are no where near the ratio of highly skilled work vs. lower skilled work (such as MC pulling) required on the job.


I looked around, and there hasn't been much work at all for the UNSKILLED in the last two years.

All that lame assembly line work dried up. Seems like the best electricians are either taking turns doing the lame work, or are specialized.

The only guys working at some shops are foremen and low term apprentices. Here it is a one-to-one ratio. So the load of crap you spewed probably does not apply.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

As a contractor I can tell you the OP has some valid points. For the died in the wool union members to ignore some of what he says, will not further the IBEW, but doom it in all but a few major cities, where the only union advantage is held not by quality but by muscle and strong arm tactics.

Time are changing, at least for the present and either concessions are made or the IBEW will go the way of the shoe makers union in Massachusetts, once a powerful force in that state.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Forrester said:


> As I said earlier in the thread, I am a member of 102. You don't have a single stitch of evidence to prove differently.


Everyone has the $100 scanner / copier / printer.

Post a copy of your latest yellow ticket. Blur out the name and number.

Anyone can do that.

But you won't. Because you're a phony.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

millerdrr said:


> EDIT Greensboro is just south of Danville. About an hours drive


I drive that route regularly, my oldest daughter went to Elon, and is now moving to Atlanta. RT 29 to 85 is an easy trip.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

brian john said:


> Have you every driven by a track home project and looked at who is doing the wiring? Looks a few levels lower than it was than when I was wiring them. THIS MAYBE JUST A VA THING?


 I've done resi. in a couple of states along the coast, including VA, and it's all ths same. You got the bottom-dollar guys wiring the places where people sleep at night. :no: I worked for an EC who's method was to have a crew of greenies bang out a house in a couple of days, and then after trim when nothing worked, I'd go back with another guy and we'd spend a week in there fixing everything. 


Jlarson said:


> ...I for one would love to see the day where we were all just electricians, with none of the non union, union crap.


No argument there. As long as everyone gets an honest day's pay for an honest day's work. The problem is that even now, there are cases where that doesn't happen. That's where unions continue to be valuable.

-John


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## Forrester (Sep 5, 2010)

miller_elex said:


> Everyone has the $100 scanner / copier / printer.
> 
> Post a copy of your latest yellow ticket. Blur out the name and number.
> 
> ...


What will I get if I do it??


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

miller_elex said:


> All that lame assembly line work dried up. *Seems like the best electricians are either taking turns doing the lame work, or are specialized.
> *
> The only guys working at some shops are foremen and low term apprentices. Here it is *a one-to-one ratio*.



You are defending his point with these statements.


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## Forrester (Sep 5, 2010)

My card is in the truck and I don't have any program to blank the personal info out.

Here is what I am willing to do in a 2 minutes notice, if you don't believe I am a member you are an idiot:


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## Forrester (Sep 5, 2010)

miller_elex said:


> Everyone has the $100 scanner / copier / printer.
> 
> Post a copy of your latest yellow ticket. Blur out the name and number.
> 
> ...


Why is the phony now???

You ready to admit that you were 100% dead wrong? 

Man enough?


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

Forrester said:


> Why not??? :laughing:
> 
> You act like hammering boxes, drilling holes, and pulling wire thru said holes into said boxes is rocket science. Maybe we should have doctors do it from now on :laughing:
> 
> ...


hell, tract homes are wired like a production line...1st the box guy sets all the boxes in the house....then the drill guy goes through and drills all the holes...then the branch circuit guy goes through and pulls all the branch circuits....then the homerun guy pulls all the home runs....then the 3rd yr apprentice makes up all the grounds and neutrals for rough inspection...then a 2nd or 3rd yr guy comes in and installs all devices and trims...then an electrician goes through and troubleshoots...

they do it this way because it costs more...

and if a 1st/2nd yr guy can't read the panel and circuit # off a print and write it on a tag, he's an idiot...

and lastly, a guy who can think his way through a job and lay it out is worth $75/hr, a guy who can do that and bring in work to is worth more...a guy who can only focus on 1 task at a time and do what the Foreman tells him is not..


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

> Bob Badger;280736]Oh I forgot, you do not think people have any ability to say no to a poor job offer.


Sure but piss poor job offers dominate the market, even before the recession. Remember the non-union dominates the market share and the wages.



> Fact is there are not enough openings for the number of electricians, that means our value has dropped.


Maybe for some, but most are still working for the same money they were working for in 2007. Before there was a shortage.



> Some people must leave the trade and find other work.


Especially when they realize that a living wage in this field is outta reach in a lot of area's. All along i thought being a tradesmen was a means to a respectful living. I know garbage men who make more then good electricians with 15+ years experience. Meanwhile contractors can charge old lady's $6500 for a service change.:whistling2: 




> That should be market driven, not contractually driven.


The contract's are based on the market. The numbers aren't pulled out of thin air.



> When times where good the company gave away a brand new pickup to the person that got the most new hires.


That was nice of them.



> They gave us bonuses and incentives to work harder and we all enjoyed it, now the pendulum has swung the other way and some will have to leave the trade.


Happens all the time, what's the point.





> I am paid buy the hour I don't get any bonus for riding the guys harder. :no:
> 
> However some guys do count on me to keep the jobs coming in so that they have a job to go to each morning.
> 
> To do that I must be competitive, some of my guys are in the low 20s some are in the mid 40s all with vacations holidays, free training, health, dental etc.


I thought you got bonuses and incentives for working harder. Now your saying you don't. I'm confused. Anyone else ????




> F- You and I mean that go F yourself, the guys that work under me respect me and are not treated badly so keep that BS for others. You have no idea what you are talking ab
> out as far as how I treat employess.


I hit a nerve there Bob.:laughing: Take it easy, I never cursed you out.




> Whatever dude, keep those blinders on tight or else you may just realize the union is just one way to get those things, another way is to make your own way.


My eye's are wide open. You and your shop are an exception to the rules. You know it, I know it, and everyone here knows it. There's maybe 3 non union shops in my area that are worth working for, there harder to get into then the virgin Mary, there nepotism make's the IBEW's look like childs play. 



> Either way can go well or bad.


We've agreed on this before.


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

Forrester said:


> As I said earlier in the thread, I am a member of 102. You don't have a single stitch of evidence to prove differently.
> 
> If I was going to lie, I would say I was 164 :thumbup::laughing:


i call BS...if you were gonna lie, you'd say 400...no one wants to be a member of 400:laughing:


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

Forrester said:


> What will I get if I do it??


$16/hr over 4 yrs and a 2 yr wait on the books:laughing:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Slick, 

My cousin works for Delta as a pilot, 3 years ago he took a 40% hit on his hourly wage. Competition form JetBlue, AirTran and others was beating them in the market.

Delta had an unfunded retirement plan, (The Feds allowed this) Delta liquidated the retirement and his 20 years retirement was gone. I am not clear but I think Delta declared bankruptcy.

The fact is for years the Air Line Pilots Association (their union) held the consumer and company as hostages with strikes at peak travel time. And now unfortunately all that has changed. The union and company were not smart enough to see the forces changing in the market.

Like the steel workers, Safeway A&P and their Union, the fore mentioned Brotherhood of Shoe Workers and Allied Craftsman, you have to move with the market and the changes that are happening or you'll be with the Whip Makers and Elevator operators and countless other "brothers".

How good are the toll workers doing as most new booths are unmanned?
That a toll worker makes what that do is a freaking joke, I forget current scale for NJ and NYC toll takers.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

brian john said:


> Slick,
> 
> My cousin works for Delta as a pilot, 3 years ago he took a 40% hit on his hourly wage. Competition form JetBlue, AirTran and others was beating them in the market.
> 
> ...



I don't disagree and I've stated a million times on this forum about the changes I think the IBEW could make to better it's standings in the market.
I just disagree that contract's and set wages are the problems. Honestly I think a lot of time's we're are own worse enemy, I know "members" that make me embarrassed to say I'm in the same organization as them.

That being said, I'm all for unionism and collective bargaining.


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

Wow I keep missing all the lovely drama that ensues ITT.

Concessions will be made. Not just on the union side. Companies will go bankrupt on both sides. Many arent going to make it. Old companies stuck in old ways that wont bend or adapt to adversities will fall. Not just the economy that is changing but people and public are changing, people are begining to notice waste and there questioning it. The days of liquid lunches and stand and wait on t&m are behind us. Companies that can adjust and add value to there service and find proffit in efficiency will THRIVE. The IBEW is TO BIG TO FAIL (lulz) It WILL adjust to compete in markets that it hasnt always been strong in to make up for lost market share and less available work. I think thats probably the point to the CE/CW program. Which I think is what the OP is reffering to. Adding value by using less skilled labor for less skilled jobs. In any event the gap between the worker and the contractor has to close. The mindset of the worker has to change and move toward VALUE TO THE CUSTOMER and away from WHATS BEST FOR ME. Not that anyone should do unsafe work or sacrifice standards. Personnally I favor a lower base pay with production, safety and quality bonuses that reward better performance. I would have no issue paying someone $73 an hour if they are productive safe and consistantly deliver quality. As a non union ratshop owner tho I would NEVER pay a material handler more then $15 an hour. Guys ropeing mc, hanging pipe, deviceing or hanging lights and other less glamorous jobs are still done by jman but they must meet production standards equal to there pay rate or I replace them. Call me a slave driver. In fact most of the time those guys moving material are kids out of high school that may or may not be in the trade in 10 years. Wether union or non there are more slugs then performers. As a trade we may be better served by raising the standards to be an electrician acrossed the board.

just saying ...


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

gold said:


> . The IBEW is TO BIG TO FAIL


That is what T-Rex thought:blink:





> The mindset of the worker has to change and move toward VALUE TO THE CUSTOMER and away from WHATS BEST FOR ME.


And many workers fail to see or understand this.



> Call me a slave driver.


Some may but it seems you are in business to make money, and some do think that is a sin.




> Whether union or non there are more slugs then performers. As a trade we may be better served by raising the standards to be an electrician acrossed the board.
> 
> just saying ...



I was told better than 2/3's of the JW's in our local do not have licenses, I would bet 90% of the men had them and let them lapse.

The men that are wise.
Keep current with trends in the trade.
And keep up with education
And keep their licenses active.

I have had open shop and union men tell me

They want me to go to classes they have to pay me while I go and pay for the classes.

I paid for loads of classes for myself when I was open shop and in the union. 

I also offered to pay for classes for union men only to have them tell me they wanted OT pay for the time they are in class.

The average electrician is better suited to a job with some protections because from what I see the average electrician is below average.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Forrester said:


> Man enough?


I was wrong.

But that leads me to wonder why.

If you are cozy with oldman, and you're such a superstar,

then howcome you aren't dispatched on a foreman call and on his payroll?? 

My bet is that you're an 'A'-teamer who is arrogant and disliked. PM's know you as a cancer.

Real leaders take the lesser capable, and it is the little things that mold them into money makers. I can tell Bob Badger is a good leader, I am just sorry to say he works for the competition. Bob, don't go getting a swollen head now.

It still doesn't add up. And you are still trolling.

If you're the sh1t, then you make ways for yourself, no matter which side of the fence you are on. Quit crying about how you are jealous of the Jman getting paid to twist on bolts.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

brian john said:


> The fact is for years the Air Line Pilots Association (their union) held the consumer and company as hostages with strikes at peak travel time. And now unfortunately all that has changed. The union and company were not smart enough to see the forces changing in the market.


What else are pilots supposed to do after they get out of the service? I think society rewarding them with a living wage job after their seperation is a small price to pay for our national security. Now their retirement has been liquidated. Sad, sad, sad.


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

brian john said:


> The average electrician is better suited to a job with some protections because from what I see the average electrician is below average.


 
Thats probably even more to the point. What is considered average electrician is really sub par. Its not just the skill level that needs to be raised but the willingness to exert a little effort to meet a customers expectations.

I'm just curious in the JATP they spend time on PLCs controls, code etc and of course history of the union. How much time do they dedicate to customer service in there training? How much time do they dedicate to understanding the contractors needs? To me this stuff is just as important as knowing how to install a vfd. Also do they spend ANY time teaching how to actually be productive or even define specifically what being productive is? Do they teach that productivity is the responseability of the jworker?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

miller_elex said:


> What else are pilots supposed to do after they get out of the service? I think society rewarding them with a living wage job after their seperation is a small price to pay for our national security. Now their retirement has been liquidated. Sad, sad, sad.



So we are to support everyone for a choice they made in life. 

MANY of the pilots receive training fly a few years and get out.


Sad shmad not practical, the government CANNOT continue to support or fund everyone for their choices in life.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

gold said:


> Thats probably even more to the point. What is considered average electrician is really sub par. Its not just the skill level that needs to be raised but the willingness to exert a little effort to meet a customers expectations.
> 
> I'm just curious in the JATP they spend time on PLCs controls, code etc and of course history of the union. How much time do they dedicate to customer service in there training? How much time do they dedicate to understanding the contractors needs? To me this stuff is just as important as knowing how to install a vfd. Also do they spend ANY time teaching how to actually be productive or even define specifically what being productive is? Do they teach that productivity is the responseability of the jworker?



The whole first year of apprentice school is basically customer/contractor/employee relations. Then again in 4th year, it get's more in depth. Job site economics, contractor profit margin, and competition overhead vs our overhead.

Let me say this, I came up from the non-union. I had my own reservations about what I was going to get in the local's JATC. I thought for sure it was going to be all non union bashing stereo typical propaganda. It wasn't. I was very surprised about the REALITY of what was being taught. The JATC at my local are doing the right thing and pushing people in the right direction. In my opinion the mind set of "f*ck the contractor" comes from the disgruntled, warped, dinosaurs in the field. I hear it all the time, people really have no clue what there talking about and it drives me nuts!!

The sooner we come to grasps with the competitions ability the better of we'll all as a union be. A guy once called me a "scab" just because I was organized, it didn't matter I was going through the program, my daddy wasn't an electrician so it didn't matter. That's how this guy explained it to me. I explained to him that the IBEW has 10% market share across the country and it's impossible that 90% of the buildings being built we're done wrong and the guy's didn't know what there doing.

He told me I was thinking like a "scab".....Unbelievable but true.

These are the guy's perpetuating the stagnant culture of the IBEW that's holding us back. the sooner guy's like him retire, the better off we'll all be.

I think my intentions are misunderstood in this forum a lot. I want the contractor to make money, lot's and lot's of money. I just don't want to be tread on in the process.


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

slickvic277 said:


> The whole first year of apprentice school is basically customer/contractor/employee relations. Then again in 4th year, it get's more in depth. Job site economics, contractor profit margin, and competition overhead vs our overhead.
> 
> Let me say this, I came up from the non-union. I had my own reservations about what I was going to get in the local's JATC. I thought for sure it was going to be all non union bashing stereo typical propaganda. It wasn't. I was very surprised about the REALITY of what was being taught. The JATC at my local are doing the right thing and pushing people in the right direction. In my opinion the mind set of "f*ck the contractor" comes from the disgruntled, warped, dinosaurs in the field. I hear it all the time, people really have no clue what there talking about and it drives me nuts!!
> 
> ...


Thats probably why 98 has the market share that it does. However they dont share your resolve on this side of the river.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

gold said:


> Thats probably why 98 has the market share that it does. However they dont share your resolve on this side of the river.



And that's why the NJ IBEW is in a lot of trouble. They have all types of problems, the least of which is the non union. And that say's a lot.


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

slickvic277 said:


> The whole first year of apprentice school is basically customer/contractor/employee relations. Then again in 4th year, it get's more in depth. Job site economics, contractor profit margin, and competition overhead vs our overhead.
> 
> Let me say this, I came up from the non-union. I had my own reservations about what I was going to get in the local's JATC. I thought for sure it was going to be all non union bashing stereo typical propaganda. It wasn't. I was very surprised about the REALITY of what was being taught. The JATC at my local are doing the right thing and pushing people in the right direction. In my opinion the mind set of "f*ck the contractor" comes from the disgruntled, warped, dinosaurs in the field. I hear it all the time, people really have no clue what there talking about and it drives me nuts!!
> 
> ...


i think you, me, Brian John and whoever the OP is now are actually in agreement...the difference is, you defend the union as a whole based on your personal experience...i chastise the union as a whole based on my extensive experience with the 'dinosaurs' you refer too...

The OP is saying - get rid of the dinosaurs, and make the whole deal better...


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

oldman said:


> i think you, me, Brian John and whoever the OP is now are actually in agreement...the difference is, you defend the union as a whole based on your personal experience...i chastise the union as a whole based on my extensive experience with the 'dinosaurs' you refer too...
> 
> The OP is saying - get rid of the dinosaurs, and make the whole deal better...



I don't think that was what the OP was really getting at. But yes the dinosaurs need to be retired to the museums. And that's only one aspect of it.


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

More time than not yes, this boards Noah's and others prove that point regularly.

They ignore any first hand accounts presented and just keep massaging the unions calk.[/quote]

Now Bob you are once again telling an LIE, How do you know whether or not I ignore any first hand accounts? What I do know is what I have experienced, I have seen abuse by both sides and I admit that we both have problems something that does not seem to get into your brain. I do understand your intent with your message but there is a twist, I am not upset with your post, I expect it.
To all I wish a wonderful week end and Labor Day Monday.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Brother Noah said:


> Now Bob you are once again telling an LIE, How do you know whether or not I ignore any first hand accounts?


It is really very easy, Brian John, myself or others tell you things we have witnessed first hand and you say it does not happen, that it is in the past.

That is how I can tell you ignore first hand accounts, you tell us so.


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## Forrester (Sep 5, 2010)

oldman said:


> $16/hr over 4 yrs and a 2 yr wait on the books:laughing:


Hey, stop rubbing it in


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## Forrester (Sep 5, 2010)

miller_elex said:


> I was wrong.
> 
> But that leads me to wonder why.
> 
> If you are cozy with oldman, and you're such a superstar,


 I am not a superstar, I never said anything of the sort. I am a competant journeyman electrician who has run many jobs and always made money for the contractor. I am not special, but I am a good worker with a solid skillset and many years of experience.


> then howcome you aren't dispatched on a foreman call and on his payroll??


 I do not know the man personally. I have known him and read his posts for at least 6 or 7 years, I respect his opinion and business sense, but I disagree with him on a lot as well.


> My bet is that you're an 'A'-teamer who is arrogant and disliked. PM's know you as a cancer.


 The exact opposite, actually. I am still friends with many of the people that worked for me, I worked for, or I worked with. 


> Real leaders take the lesser capable, and it is the little things that mold them into money makers. I can tell Bob Badger is a good leader, I am just sorry to say he works for the competition. Bob, don't go getting a swollen head now.


 So what does that have to do with me? This has nothing to do with the less capable being molded, it has to do with paying them less since their job is worth less.


> It still doesn't add up. And you are still trolling.


 Yeah yeah yeah, like I said before, you can't refute what I said so you attack me personally. I STILL don't see you responding to the topic of this thread, just me. Even after I proved you were an idiot with the picture, you are still acting a fool.


> If you're the sh1t,


 I never said I was "the sh1t". I don't know where you got that from but it's just plain old stupid.



> then you make ways for yourself, no matter which side of the fence you are on. Quit crying about how you are jealous of the Jman getting paid to twist on bolts.


Why should I? I think it's necessary to change and this is one important way to do it. Only an idiot would think we are doing well, everyone else in the world sees how we are slowly but surely fading away. Without us effectively doing something to stop that, we will be gone soon.

I refuse to stand by and watch.


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## Forrester (Sep 5, 2010)

oldman said:


> i think you, me, Brian John and whoever the OP is now are actually in agreement...the difference is, you defend the union as a whole based on your personal experience...i chastise the union as a whole based on my extensive experience with the 'dinosaurs' you refer too...
> 
> The OP is saying - get rid of the dinosaurs, and make the whole deal better...


Yes, I agree. One of the other things that comes from the "dinosaurs" that I feel really hurts us is the thuggery. All the tough guy crap at pickets, all it does is give the anti-union crowd a leg to stand on. I don't condone any thuggery and make it clear to the men around me. I'm sure Miller_Elex will attack me for saying that too.


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## Forrester (Sep 5, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> It is really very easy, Brian John, myself or others tell you things we have witnessed first hand and you say it does not happen, that it is in the past.
> 
> That is how I can tell you ignore first hand accounts, you tell us so.


Here's the problem the way I see it. The way you state it is usually in a way to make it look like it's a common occurrence and something that will most likely happen. When the truth is that there are only a few people doing it in a group of almost 1 million members.

The way it comes out when you say it makes it seem like you are generalizing all members to be that way. Maybe you don't mean it that way, I am just making an observation. It seems like you say it in a way to attack all the members is all.

Sure, it's happens, but the group as a whole shouldn't take the blame for the bad eggs (or criminals) who do the bad deeds.

I have laid off men who have made loud comments and started trouble with non-union electrician on jobs because it makes my contractor look bad to the customer. When I called the hall, the referral agent apologized to me. I am as friendly as could be to the non-union electrician on jobs, they are out there to put food on their tables. Hell, most of them tell me they would love to work union if A) they were allowed in and B) there was enough work.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Forrester said:


> Without us effectively doing something to stop that, we will be gone soon.


I work in a contractor's local. Market-share is above 80% and rising. Not quite the same situation as others experience day in and day out. So I admit, I am probably not qualified to comment.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

miller_elex said:


> I work in a contractor's local. Market-share is above 80% and rising. Not quite the same situation as others experience day in and day out. So I admit, I am probably not qualified to comment.


IBEW is 80% of the market share?


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

brian john said:


> IBEW is 80% of the market share?



It's the same in my local as well. It's not unrealistic to say that 80% or even more of the work get's done by union in Philadelphia. Ask around.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

slickvic277 said:


> It's the same in my local as well. It's not unrealistic to say that 80% or even more of the work get's done by union in Philadelphia. Ask around.


I knew about Philly, I was just curious if that is what he meant.


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## Forrester (Sep 5, 2010)

miller_elex said:


> I work in a contractor's local. Market-share is above 80% and rising. Not quite the same situation as others experience day in and day out. So I admit, I am probably not qualified to comment.


102 is certainly a contractor's local too, but all that means to us as the members is that we get the ass end of the stick in every instance. We take concessions, we suffer deals made without votes, we are told to do things directly against out CBA just cause "you gotta do it". A few weeks ago the new 85% scale plan came into effect for all Journeymen Wiremen working in the refinery, great...

I have no idea what the actual market share is in our territory, nor do I know how to find out. You'd think it would be high in a union state like NJ, but that's not what I hear.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Forrester said:


> 102 is certainly a contractor's local too, but all that means to us as the members is that we get the ass end of the stick in every instance. We take concessions, we suffer deals made without votes, we are told to do things directly against out CBA just cause "you gotta do it". A few weeks ago the new 85% scale plan came into effect for all Journeymen Wiremen working in the refinery, great...
> 
> I have no idea what the actual market share is in our territory, nor do I know how to find out. You'd think it would be high in a union state like NJ, but that's not what I hear.



That's even worse then a "contractors" local. It sounds like a corrupt local and sadly it seems to be the norm in the majority of the IBEW these days.
The officers selling out the membership to the contractors.

take LU 380 for example, there last BM ran them and there pension into the ground then quit and took a cushy job with NECA!!! Can you say traitor.

I don't think NJ is a strong Union state. When I was non-union I worked all over Jersey and never even knew the union existed there.

I had one encounter with a local 351 officer when I was non-union. He told us 

_"I don't care you guy's are working here, but I have to show up. Just go in through the back to avoid the picket line"_ 

The sad part was, we never, ever saw a picket line on that job that lasted 4 months.

I just feel blesses to be a member of a local that gives a **** and has a BM who holds his officers accountable.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

brian john said:


> I knew about Philly, I was just curious if that is what he meant.



I think that's what he meant.


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## Forrester (Sep 5, 2010)

slickvic277 said:


> That's even worse then a "contractors" local. It sounds like a corrupt local and sadly it seems to be the norm in the majority of the IBEW these days.


 I don't know if I would call it corrupt or not.


> The officers selling out the membership to the contractors.


 Well, they do it under the assumption that it will get more guys working. It's a 20 month wait so I guess they are trying different avenues. 
But it kinda sucks to hear that a contractor isn't paying overtime, they are substituting hours (work late Monday and Tuesday, go home early Friday) but they are doing it hour for hour instead of an hour of OT for 1.5 of time off later. And the hall claims they can't do anything about this. This is just one of the many things going on, some contractors feel that the employees abused the situation when times were good (which many of the workers DID do), so now the contractors can abuse them back when the economy blows.


> take LU 380 for example, there last BM ran them and there pension into the ground then quit and took a cushy job with NECA!!! Can you say traitor.


 That would make my blood boil, I'd be prone to doing something I'd rather not say here. As far as pension, I hear ours is doing better than any other local in the state or area. So at least that's a good thing.


> I don't think NJ is a strong Union state. When I was non-union I worked all over Jersey and never even knew the union existed there.


 I wouldn't compare it to a strong *city* like NYC or Philly, but considering the whole state, I always took NJ as being pretty unionized.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

> Forrester;281267]I don't know if I would call it corrupt or not. Well, they do it under the assumption that it will get more guys working. It's a 20 month wait so I guess they are trying different avenues.
> But it kinda sucks to hear that a contractor isn't paying overtime, they are substituting hours (work late Monday and Tuesday, go home early Friday) but they are doing it hour for hour instead of an hour of OT for 1.5 of time off later. And the hall claims they can't do anything about this. This is just one of the many things going on, some contractors feel that the employees abused the situation when times were good (which many of the workers DID do), so now the contractors can abuse them back when the economy blows.


Sounds pretty shady to me. I saw you had a copy of the contract, what's it say about overtime and hours worked? I'm willing to bet banking hours is a no-no. And this is what I mean by corrupt. The local (who is paid by the membership) are not representing the interest of the members. But are turning a blind eye to the contractors abuses, not a good thing.

And the thing about paybacks for when times where good is horse sh*t. believe me if the contractors we're getting abused, it's only because they allowed it to happen. One has nothing to do with the other.




> That would make my blood boil, I'd be prone to doing something I'd rather not say here. As far as pension, I hear ours is doing better than any other local in the state or area. So at least that's a good thing.
> I wouldn't compare it to a strong *city* like NYC or Philly, but considering the whole state, I always took NJ as being pretty unionized.



Yeah, 380 is in trouble from what I understand. They have more money coming out of there pension then going in.

Don't get confused, being a unionized state and being a strong union are two different things. It's time for new leadership in 102.


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

Forrester said:


> Here's the problem the way I see it. The way you state it is usually in a way to make it look like it's a common occurrence and something that will most likely happen. When the truth is that there are only a few people doing it in a group of almost 1 million members.
> 
> The way it comes out when you say it makes it seem like you are generalizing all members to be that way. Maybe you don't mean it that way, I am just making an observation. It seems like you say it in a way to attack all the members is all.
> 
> ...


 Bob this gentleman has 36 post to your 5000+ and he had no problem spotting the error. I have stated over and over that I have witness evil from both sides, almost all in the past and when some one post that they are experiencing something negative so I should know about it then WOW. Brian appears to be intelligent and a hard worker but has shown a skewed view(instructors teaching the union youths to dislike the contractors"I am putting this mildly") even though it seems that Brian never experience this for himself.Forrester I do appreciate the comment, and yes I was leery of you by your post.You have shown stamina from the onslaught but the jury is still out. 
Monday is a holiday to celebrate all those who earn their keep from labor, I wish all those concerned a wonderful Monday Labor day.


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## Skipp (May 23, 2010)

brian john said:


> I knew about Philly, I was just curious if that is what he meant.


 Not the California I live in. More like 30% and dropping.


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## Forrester (Sep 5, 2010)

Brother Noah said:


> Bob this gentleman has 36 post to your 5000+ and he had no problem spotting the error.


 I got more posts than Bob.


> Forrester I do appreciate the comment, and yes I was leery of you by your post.You have shown stamina from the onslaught but the jury is still out.


 I'm not here to impress you, nor do I care what you think about me.

I agree with Bob that many of YOUR posts show you to be the type of person that is driving the IBEW into the ground. The jury is still out on YOU.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Brother Noah said:


> . Brian appears to be intelligent and a hard worker but has shown a skewed view(instructors teaching the union youths to dislike the contractors"I am putting this mildly") even though it seems that Brian never experience this for himself.Forrester I do appreciate the comment, and yes I was leery of you by your post.You have shown stamina from the onslaught but the jury is still out.
> y.


Should I get the mechanics that work for me to post or would you prefer the apprentices. 

As for experiencing union BULLIES, I have experienced union crap on several occasions from day one and as I posted previously up to last year.

1st month in the trade the EC I worked with was the only non-union trade on the job.

The union "brothers" filled our in deck conduits with mastic.

We were not allowed to use the elevators in a 12 story office building. SCABS NOT ALLOWED, as a 17 year old this stuck with me.

Been called a SCAB countless times, by pieces of ****. 

Had a plumber get in my face about being open shop, when I explained I made over scale and equal benefits. He said that makes no difference a scab is a scab.

When the company went bankrupt I tried to get in the union and VERBATIM was told, I was hardly qualified to join (after 3 years in the trade) and could start as a green apprentice as what I learned open shop was worthless. Oh this meant a pay cut, BS.

A second union man(?) told me my dad was not union (no he spent 33 years in the army) and with no uncles or even neighbors that I stood NO CHANCE of ever getting in the "A program.

Had two union men working for me when I was a super open shop. They had been off work 17 and 20 months, one had 6 kids, seems like they might need the open shop scab work. They got in my face calling me names shouting union ****. So I fired them, talk about hearing the union **** after that.

When I joined the union I was told I would never be as good as a "REAL BROTHER" because I had come in through the back door. Even though I had 7 master licenses and most union men did not have a single license.

When I was made a sub-foreman after 2 weeks, the hall was called, the slackers were offended that they had to take orders from a PREVIOUS SCAB.

I was shocked at the ****ty quality work I saw being installed by the electricians on this job as I was being told how superior they were.

During elections the want-to-be local BA came to the job to shake hands, he refused to shake my hand.

Noah this is only up to year 8 in the trade shall I go, I have been in the trade 40 years.


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## Forrester (Sep 5, 2010)

So brian, what is your point? Seriously, what are you trying to say? That a few members of an organization did things that you didn't like? Who cares?

EVERY organization (or group of people) has members that do stupid things, or criminal things. 

The problem is when you blame the entire organization for the actions of the few.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Forrester said:


> So brian, what is your point? Seriously, what are you trying to say? That a few members of an organization did things that you didn't like? Who cares?


The union should care, these folks are too stupid to think of this crap on their own the IBEW and unions in general foster this type of mentality.



> EVERY organization (or group of people) has members that do stupid things, or criminal things.


Yes but the unions tolerate of as noted foster it. 



> The problem is when you blame the entire organization for the actions of the few.


I do not blame the majority of members BUT I do blame the union. The few meetings I went to more than reinforced this in me. 

I do believe our local has changed and this crap is not as prevalent but the old boys still spout this **** and many of the younger members swallow it hook line and sinker.

Yet, you see men having to do work beneath them in a tough market as an issue, but piss poor treatment of others means nothing?


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

Forrester said:


> The problem is when you blame the entire organization for the actions of the few.


No, the problem is when the few can hide behind the entire organization unpunished. Each individual is a representative of the organization as a whole. If an individual can commit crimes without worry of being punished, then it will be assumed by the general public that the organization condones the behavior as tolerable.

This stands true across the board.


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## Forrester (Sep 5, 2010)

brian john said:


> The union should care, these folks are too stupid to think of this crap on their own the IBEW and unions in general foster this type of mentality.


 I disagree. I also disagreed when you said it was taught in aprenticeship class. You were *WRONG* to say that as if it's going on everywhere, because it is *NOT*. We teach our apprentices to pull up their pants, take the jewelry out of their faces, got off the cell phone, and make the contractor money while doing good work for the customer. 




> Yes but the unions tolerate of as noted foster it.


 Again, that is untrue. Maybe it has happened in a couple situations, but you are again generalizing it as if it's always going to happen, which it doesn't. 




> I do not blame the majority of members BUT I do blame the union. The few meetings I went to more than reinforced this in me.


 Such as?


> I do believe our local has changed and this crap is not as prevalent but the old boys still spout this **** and many of the younger members swallow it hook line and sinker.


Then it's your job to help those young members learn the truth.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Forrester said:


> The problem is when you blame the entire organization for the actions of the few.


I don't blame all the members, I do blame the leadership for not taking a clear stand against the small percentage of A-Holes that happen to be members and feel the need to act like D-bags in the name of the union.


----------



## Forrester (Sep 5, 2010)

Frasbee said:


> No, the problem is when the few can hide behind the entire organization unpunished. Each individual is a representative of the organization as a whole. If an individual can commit crimes without worry of being punished, then it will be assumed by the general public that the organization condones the behavior as tolerable.
> 
> This stands true across the board.


So how do you punish someone for making comments? 

This is what I said earlier in the thread:



Forrester said:


> I have laid off men who have made loud comments and started trouble with non-union electrician on jobs because it makes my contractor look bad to the customer. When I called the hall, the referral agent apologized to me.



But honestly, what can i expect the hall to do about it? Bring a grown man into a room and tell him to be more sensitive towards other people's feelings?

This is construction work, at some point you have to pull your panties up and realize that guys might call you a mean name, get over it. If you can't take a little ribbing, go work in a nail salon.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Forrester said:


> So how do you punish someone for making comments?
> 
> This is what I said earlier in the thread:
> 
> ...


Maybe in the early years they explain we are all electricians and not down play open shop men.



> This is construction work, at some point you have to pull your panties up and realize that guys might call you a mean name, get over it. If you can't take a little ribbing, go work in a nail salon.


Ribbing is different, I can take it and dish it out with the best, union threats are totally different.

This mentality started with management of the union and they can steer attitudes in a better direction.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Forrester said:


> So how do you punish someone for making comments?





> But honestly, what can i expect the hall to do about it? Bring a grown man into a room and tell him to be more sensitive towards other people's feelings?


I don't know what they can do about it but they damn well need to find away because the way it is now has made guys like myself avoid supporting or joining unions.


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## Forrester (Sep 5, 2010)

brian john said:


> Maybe in the early years they explain we are all electricians and not down play open shop men.


So what you want is the IBEW to develop a program to teach the apprentices to be nice to non-union workers? 

Give me a break...


> This mentality started with management of the union and they can steer attitudes in a better direction.


 NOPE, again you are wrong. 

What you *should* have said was "This mentality started with a couple members of management of the local I have dealt with...".

You won't find management of my local spouting this nonsense, they are WAY too busy catering to the contractor's every need :thumbup::thumbup:


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## Forrester (Sep 5, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> I don't know what they can do about it but they damn well need to find away because the way it is now has made guys like myself avoid supporting or joining unions.


Chances are, anyone who is that butthurt over some comments from blowhard union guys aren't going to be bringing any work with them, so why would we want them?? 

Anyone who voluntarily joins the local, whether it be to work or as a signatory contractor, will do it for the benefits that goes along with being union. Comments from some picketers isn't going to change that.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Forrester said:


> So what you want is the IBEW to develop a program to teach the apprentices to be nice to non-union workers?
> 
> Give me a break...
> NOPE, again you are wrong.


NOPE you are wrong....Unions fostered the idea that open shop men were SCABS and now they are reaping the benefits in losing a market share.

The number of open shop men, that HATE thee union due to crap treatment will only hurt any future membership drives (should the economy improve) 



> What you *should* have said was "This mentality started with a couple members of management of the local I have dealt with...".
> 
> You won't find management of my local spouting this nonsense, they are WAY too busy catering to the contractor's every need :thumbup::thumbup:


By default the union is the management, the members elected them to represent the membership and the IBEW.


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## Forrester (Sep 5, 2010)

brian john said:


> NOPE you are wrong....Unions fostered the idea that open shop men were SCABS and now they are reaping the benefits in losing a market share.


 So it's every IBEW local and all 1 million members that did that, I see. I guess everyone who is a part of the church is a child molester, all muslims are terrorists, all Italians are in the mafia, blah blah blah. How many more stereotypes can we name? 

I guess there is no getting thru to you.

Hey, I read about a couple BA's stealing from the general fund and pension in a local down south, I guess every BA is a criminal thief too, huh?



> The number of open shop men, that HATE thee union due to crap treatment will only hurt any future membership drives (should the economy improve)


 Membership means nothing, work does. If there is work, all those guys you are talking about will join in droves. Do you really think most men will say "well, the union has open positions for $30/hr more than I am making here, but I don't like the attitudes of some of the union guys in the past so I won't join"? Trust me, the positions WILL be filled. 


> By default the union is the management, the members elected them to represent the membership and the IBEW.


The "union" is a group of locals, each one run differently and by a multitude of people. The mistakes of some men do not represent everyone else.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Forrester said:


> Chances are, anyone who is that butthurt over some comments from blowhard union guys aren't going to be bringing any work with them, so why would we want them??


Well for one thing we are not talking about just one guy we are talking about many potentially good electricians that would join the union but choose not to be part of a group that has a reputation for using bullying as a standard tactic.

Now I am no *****, I can take care of myself but I have no patience, no respect for any bully be it a person or orginzation. 




> Comments from some picketers isn't going to change that.


Hmmm

So you do not think pickets don't change peoples views?


I would have to ask why are pickets used then?


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Forrester said:


> So it's every IBEW local and all 1 million members that did that, I see.


No, not at all.

But you have to understand that is the perception that unions have to find a way to get past and just saying 'It ain't so' is not going to do it.

To the general public 'The Union' is all one thing, when union garbage handlers go on strike it reflects badly on all the unions. It is not fair, it is not right but it is a fact that has to be considered.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

brian john said:


> this is only up to year 8 in the trade shall I go on, I have been in the trade 40 years.


If Forrester endured that experience, I doubt he'd be successful like you are today. He'd probably be layed up in a nursing home, filling up diapers all day, from the accumulated stress.


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## Forrester (Sep 5, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> Well for one thing we are not talking about just one guy we are talking about many potentially good electricians that would join the union but choose not to be part of a group that has a reputation for using bullying as a standard tactic.


 That's like saying that someone wouldn't want to be part of a religion that has a reputation for molesting children or killing innocent people. 

In the end, do those actions of few really deter people? Or are people smart enough to see the light for themselves?



> Hmmm
> 
> So you do not think pickets don't change peoples views?
> 
> ...


I think pickets could be used for good. A simple, peaceful display is fine, IMO. I have said it here before, I was part of a huge "walk thru" in a mall on a Saturday afternoon. There were hundreds of us, we walked thru the mall, we were 100% respectful of everyone, we showed our presence and purchased things from the mall. We had all the eateries offering free food and drink to us, everyone seems happy. In the end, we got the work. 

On the other hand, I have been on pickets that I left 5 minutes after arriving because the idiots were blocking the non-union contractors from entering the site which was causing traffic on the street. I was embarrassed to be a part of that, it made the union look bad, IMO. That form of thuggery is something that is hurting us more than it's helping. I made my feelings known at the next meeting after that picket. The next picket I was called to (about a year later) everyone was instructed not to block the gate, so maybe they learned?


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## Forrester (Sep 5, 2010)

miller_elex said:


> If Forrester endured that experience, I doubt he'd be successful like you are today. He'd probably be layed up in a nursing home, filling up diapers all day, from the accumulated stress.


Yet another attack against me instead of refuting what I said. I'm still waiting on you to go back and actually say something of substance. I remember you used to be on LGLS's c0ck all the time, I guess now that he's not here you think you could fill his shoes??

It's funny how my "brother" is attacking me while I am having a peaceful conversation with the "enemies"...


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Forrester said:


> That's like saying that someone wouldn't want to be part of a religion that has a reputation for molesting children or killing innocent people.


Some people would not want to be part of a religion that has a reputation for molesting children or killing innocent people. 

I would never become a catholic based on it's 'managements' past actions.



> In the end, do those actions of few really deter people? Or are people smart enough to see the light for themselves?


Your version of the light is not everyones.

I am not going to choose to ignore the bad parts so I can take advantage of the good parts.



> I think pickets could be used for good. A simple, peaceful display is fine, IMO. I have said it here before, I was part of a huge "walk thru" in a mall on a Saturday afternoon. There were hundreds of us, we walked thru the mall, we were 100% respectful of everyone, we showed our presence and purchased things from the mall. We had all the eateries offering free food and drink to us, everyone seems happy. In the end, we got the work.
> 
> On the other hand, I have been on pickets that I left 5 minutes after arriving because the idiots were blocking the non-union contractors from entering the site which was causing traffic on the street. I was embarrassed to be a part of that, it made the union look bad, IMO. That form of thuggery is something that is hurting us more than it's helping. I made my feelings known at the next meeting after that picket. The next picket I was called to (about a year later) everyone was instructed not to block the gate, so maybe they learned?


That really did not address what we were talking about but it was a great diversion.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Forrester said:


> It's funny how my "brother" is attacking me while I am having a peaceful conversation with the "enemies"...


And there is the issue you see me, management as the enemy and Bob an open shop man that by all appearances would make a top union electrician as another enemy.


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## Forrester (Sep 5, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> That really did not address what we were talking about but it was a great diversion.


How was it not addressing your question about how I think pickets change people's views? Are you kidding me, I answered your question directly and honestly with experiences that I had which display my opinion.




Bob Badger said:


> I would never become a catholic based on it's 'managements' past actions.


That right there is showing how off base your opinion is.

Do you really think that the majority of people would choose their faith based on "the management".

This is the way you see unions too, which is why I say your view doesn't represent the majority.


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## Forrester (Sep 5, 2010)

brian john said:


> And there is the issue you see me, management as the enemy and Bob an open shop man that by all appearances would make a top union electrician as another enemy.


Do you happen to know what I means when someone puts a word in quotes as I did? Apparently not... It was a tongue in cheek method of being sarcastic.

A contractor is not my enemy, it is my lifeblood. Without contractors, I would have to go out and do the hard work instead of humping material for $73 per hour :thumbup:


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

brian john said:


> Should I get the mechanics that work for me to post or would you prefer the apprentices.
> 
> As for experiencing union BULLIES, I have experienced union crap on several occasions from day one and as I posted previously up to last year.
> 
> ...


 Brian I do honestly appreciate that you are a union contractor, we all know you could be taking more of each contract dollar if you did not pay union scale and benefits. By your sincere post you have witnessed abuse at the hands of over zealous union members, and it shows in small ways throughout your post.You should be commended for being tolerant and yet forging ahead to be a union contractor.Have you ever participated actively in your local? Attend union meetings,volunteer phone banks for political drives,donated your efforts to habitat for humanity(I see you doing this) What I am asking is have you made sacrifices for the IBEW in order to further its cause? It seems by your own testimony that you have achieved your success by an inner strength and desire to overcome and prove wrong the union naysayers.(No ill intent meant) I do truly love the IBEW and what it is suppose to do for ALL the working class and because of this view I have been scorned,jeered,harassed by some of those same members I try to represent leading by example. Many years ago I did go out to SALT, my intent was to give a good days work and be productive with hopes of convincing the contractors they could make money using union labor that was productive. The nonunion contractors I worked for (for the most part) were not a problem at all, but wow the static(putting it mildly) that I caught from the union members for in their eyes helping the nonunion.NO matter how bad it got or how long I still push on trying to help the IBEW when or however I can. Where I am located now I have helped their apprenticeship build a welding shop(going there in 15 minutes) even though I have been discriminated against(my opinion)many times.
Forrester I apologize for the fact that I confused you with the thread starter in my last post.I need not rely on my memory at my age.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Forrester said:


> It's funny how my "brother" is attacking me while I am having a peaceful conversation with the "enemies"...


Don't EVER call me brother! I got more love for your enemies than a brother like you.

Time to give up on your sob story. You feel like you're more important than you really are. Don't mean to kick sand in your vag, but the sun doesn't revolve around you and your sorry sob story of sitting on your can for 20 months while allegedly imcompetent Johns are still working. 

Pull the Visine out of your medicine cabinet, apply to your eyes, you don't want everyone to see you've been crying all night, its time to NUT UP, and look for work out of town. Blowin the manpower supt obviously didn't work for you, he must have mistaken it for true love / lust.


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## 120 Volt Sparky (Sep 4, 2010)

miller_elex said:


> Don't EVER call me brother! I got more love for your enemies than a brother like you.
> 
> Time to give up on your sob story. You feel like you're more important than you really are. Don't mean to kick sand in your vag, but the sun doesn't revolve around you and your sorry sob story of sitting on your can for 20 months while allegedly imcompetent Johns are still working.
> 
> Pull the Visine out of your medicine cabinet, apply to your eyes, you don't want everyone to see you've been crying all night, its time to NUT UP, and look for work out of town. Blowin the manpower supt obviously didn't work for you, he must have mistaken it for true love / lust.


And I get accused of being a troll! :furious::furious:


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Forrester said:


> That right there is showing how off base your opinion is.
> 
> Do you really think that the majority of people would choose their faith based on "the management".


Obviously you're off base. The majority of people have chosen non-denominational, because of the management.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Forrester said:


> That right there is showing how off base your opinion is.
> 
> Do you really think that the majority of people would choose their faith based on "the management".


You are the one that through the word majority in there, I never said the majority,.

But a lot do.



> This is the way you see unions too, which is why I say your view doesn't represent the majority.


Again you are caught up with that word 'majority' so be it.

The fact is the unions share of the work is far less than the majority _and is shrinking_ in most areas.

They really need to think hard about alienating anyone.


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## Forrester (Sep 5, 2010)

miller_elex said:


> Don't EVER call me brother! I got more love for your enemies than a brother like you.


 You get more love from them? I guess you forgot that it is YOU who started attacking me because you didn't like my opinion, yet you still didn't describe the ways in which you felt my opinion was wrong.


> Time to give up on your sob story. You feel like you're more important than you really are.


 No, I don't. As I have stated, I am one in a million. Yes, I can do good electrical work and make my contractor money, but I know that I am not special.



> Don't mean to kick sand in your vag, but the sun doesn't revolve around you and your sorry sob story of sitting on your can for 20 months while allegedly imcompetent Johns are still working.


 I have never sat on my can for 20 months, I have never been out of work for more than 2 months in my life. Hell, before last year, I was never out of work for more than 2 weeks. This just goes to show how you are attacking me for bullsh1t reasons, none of what you say has any merit. 


> Pull the Visine out of your medicine cabinet, apply to your eyes, you don't want everyone to see you've been crying all night, its time to NUT UP, and look for work out of town. Blowin the manpower supt obviously didn't work for you, he must have mistaken it for true love / lust.


 This is exactly what I would expect from a 12 year old.

You are apparently the type of guy who Brian John and Bob Badger are speaking of. You use these childish insults against people whose opinion is different than yours, and look at the way you are making others feel about the union because of it...


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## Forrester (Sep 5, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> You are the one that through the word majority in there, I never said the majority,.
> 
> But a lot do.
> 
> ...


 Ok, you didn't use the word majority, but I just assumed that is what we were talking about. Do we really care what the minority thinks? Aren't we after the majority?


> The fact is the unions share of the work is far less than the majority _and is shrinking_ in most areas.
> 
> They really need to think hard about alienating anyone.


Well, that very reason is why I started this thread. 

I feel that the super high cost of moving material and pulling MC is playing a LARGE role in our tiny market share. I do not feel that union workers making comments to non-union workers is causing that much harm to the marketshare. But this is all opinion based off of assumptions. I'm just an electrician.


Hey Bob, I have tried to answer all your questions, I would appreciate if you could respond to this:


> Bob Badger said:
> 
> 
> > That really did not address what we were talking about but it was a great diversion.
> ...


I think it's unfair that you said I was putting up a diversion when I was answering your question directly, IMO.


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## Forrester (Sep 5, 2010)

120 Volt Sparky said:


> And I get accused of being a troll! :furious::furious:


Hey Buddy! :thumbsup:


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## 120 Volt Sparky (Sep 4, 2010)

Forrester said:


> Hey Buddy! :thumbsup:


:thumbsup:

I know who the _real_ trolls are. :whistling2:


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Seeing how 120 Volt Sparky has been banned under another user name, and Forrester has had all 6 of his other user names banned, it's probably time to redefine the definition of the word "troll".


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## Forrester (Sep 5, 2010)

MDShunk said:


> Seeing how 120 Volt Sparky has been banned under another user name, and Forrester has had all 6 of his other user names banned, it's probably time to redefine the definition of the word "troll".


*troll*

_noun_ *Definition of TROLL*

*:* The coolest guy in the room.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

MDShunk said:


> Seeing how 120 Volt Sparky has been banned under another user name, and Forrester has had all 6 of his other user names banned, it's probably time to redefine the definition of the word "troll".


 

Can you imagine a life so empty you have time (and the desire) to troll electrician chat sites? How lonely they must be.:laughing::thumbup:


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## Forrester (Sep 5, 2010)

jwjrw said:


> Can you imagine a life so empty you have time (and the desire) to troll electrician chat sites? How lonely they must be.:laughing::thumbup:


Altho I have a lot of posts here, you have quite a bit more than me (3,126 in 7 months). So when speaking about having extra time and being lonely, look in the mirror first.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Forrester is actually behaving himself under this user name, so despite convention, I'm letting him alone.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Forrester said:


> Ok, you didn't use the word majority, but I just assumed that is what we were talking about. Do we really care what the minority thinks? Aren't we after the majority?


Uhh to get to be the majority you have to get more people, the pool you have to get those people from are those that like to be electrians

It is counter productive to alieninate any of that pool of potential supporters.

It is pretty basic math. 




> I do not feel that union workers making comments to non-union workers is causing that much harm to the marketshare.


And I think with such a low market share it is foolish to risk lowering it ever further.

It certainly is never going to gain you any market share to be protrade badly on the evening news.







> I think it's unfair that you said I was putting up a diversion when I was answering your question directly, IMO.



Not worth either of our time.

We had been talking about union picketers calling people scabs hurting the unions image and you went on a long talk about some pickets without ever addressing the basic position.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

jwjrw said:


> Can you imagine a life so empty you have time (and the desire) to troll electrician chat sites? How lonely they must be.:laughing::thumbup:





Forrester said:


> Altho I have a lot of posts here, you have quite a bit more than me (3,126 in 7 months). So when speaking about having extra time and being lonely, look in the mirror first.


Point Forrester. :laughing:


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

I guess my basic postion is this.

IMPO the union comes across like this.

_"We are the f-ing balls, no one is better, you are lucky we even show up to wire your building, we have better things to do, we will take long breaks, and whine about every little issue."_


When really they need to be more like.

_"We have the training and the experience to get it done on time and on budget, we will keep our primma donna wants and desires off the work site."_

Of course the above is just my opinion and in no way offered as fact.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Forrester said:


> Altho I have a lot of posts here, you have quite a bit more than me (3,126 in 7 months). So when speaking about having extra time and being lonely, look in the mirror first.


 

I spend time here to learn about my chosen profession. Its an investment in my future...:whistling2:you however.......well why do trolls do what they do? Do you masterbate everytime you stir crap up? Sick Bastard.:laughing:


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

electricmanscott said:


> Point Forrester. :laughing:


It was a pretty funny come back. Would be funny if I wasn't here to learn.:thumbup:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> Forrester has had all 6 of his other user names banned, it's probably time to redefine the definition of the word "troll".



6 other names?

Fess up Forrester what is you devious past or names.

And I thought you were serious, turns out your are just another PIA.


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## Forrester (Sep 5, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> Uhh to get to be the majority you have to get more people, the pool you have to get those people from are those that like to be electrians
> 
> It is counter productive to alieninate any of that pool of potential supporters.
> 
> It is pretty basic math.


 I don't agree with that because the people we need to support us is not electrician. As I said, they will follow along if there is work, hurt feelings or not. 

We need the customers, and I don't think they are as effected by the rank and file throwing "Rat" and "Scab" insults as you and Brian were.




> And I think with such a low market share it is foolish to risk lowering it ever further.


 Agreed.


> It certainly is never going to gain you any market share to be protrade badly on the evening news.


 ABSOLUTELY! 

But my contention is that nothing Brian has listed as bad things to happen to him by union men are things that you see on the news. Normally it's the corruption, which we both agree on as being incredibly hurtful and wrong.


> We had been talking about union picketers calling people scabs hurting the unions image and you went on a long talk about some pickets without ever addressing the basic position.


My position was that peaceful demonstrations show the union in a good light while the hardcore thuggery BS is damaging to us. I figure you would agree with that...?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Forrester said:


> Altho I have a lot of posts here, you have quite a bit more than me (3,126 in 7 months). So when speaking about having extra time and being lonely, look in the mirror first.


But once again these others are often trying to learn, not just run their post count up. I do it to kill time me, learn and help others out if possible..


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## Forrester (Sep 5, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> I guess my basic postion is this.
> 
> IMPO the union comes across like this.
> 
> _"We are the f-ing balls, no one is better, you are lucky we even show up to wire your building, we have better things to do, we will take long breaks, and whine about every little issue."_


 My position is that what you just said is only coming from a few people, while the rest of us see it as:

"_I just want to put in my 8 hours, then go home to my family. If I put in a good day's work, it'll lead to more work in the future and a good retirement._"



> When really they need to be more like.
> 
> _"We have the training and the experience to get it done on time and on budget, we will keep our primma donna wants and desires off the work site."_
> 
> Of course the above is just my opinion and in no way offered as fact.


Most of us are that way.

But let's be honest, ALL electrician, union or non-union, are primma donnas :thumbsup:


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## Forrester (Sep 5, 2010)

brian john said:


> But once again these others are often trying to learn, not just run their post count up. I do it to kill time me, learn and help others out if possible..


I try to learn too, I also try to help when I have the ability. I may be considered a troll, but I do try and get involved in electric discussions and I often recommend this forum to electrician in real life as a great resource for them. 
Let's not act like half of jwjrw's posts aren't in the union section. This really isn't an argument worth having.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Forrester said:


> But let's be honest, ALL electrician, union or non-union, are primma donnas :thumbsup:


Yeah I can't argue with that. :laughing:


But to elaborate and I know, I know, .... Noah has told me it is all in the past .... and he is right this story is in the past, way back in the dark ages of 2000-2001.

We were the only non-union contractor on a large job, fairly normal for us and often lead to tensions.

This time we got lucky because the union carpenters and union labors where so busy fighting each other over who owned unloading material from incoming trucks that they had no time to give us crap.

Instead of the norml BS about 'scabs' to read in the crapper we got to read about the how the labors mothers have a fondness for donkeys etc. 

This fighting lead to damaged goods, work stoppages, crap all over the floor of the site etc.

Now if I was a GC or customer why the F would I want to deal with crap like that?


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## Forrester (Sep 5, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> Yeah I can't argue with that. :laughing:
> 
> 
> But to elaborate and I know, I know, .... Noah has told me it is all in the past .... and he is right this story is in the past, way back in the dark ages of 2000-2001.
> ...


 You wouldn't.

My point is that if this were 102 members out there doing this, the BAs would be out there, the men responsible would be back at the hall up on charges, and new men would be sent out with a strict warning to curb the BS. That's my experience. If I were the foreman on that job and my men were out there fighting with another trade on the contractor's dime, they would be sent home. At $1+/minute they don't have time to do anything but work.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Forrester said:


> You wouldn't.


But they did have to, it went on for a long time.




> My point is that if this were 102 members out there doing this, the BAs would be out there, the men responsible would be back at the hall up on charges, and new men would be sent out with a strict warning to curb the BS.


Now I don't care who you are that is just plain hilarious, next you will tell me politicians are worried about me. 

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


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## Forrester (Sep 5, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> But they did have to, it went on for a long time.


 Something needed to be done about it, it's too bad that the local in your area didn't move on it. 


> Now I don't care who you are that is just plain hilarious, next you will tell me politicians are worried about me.
> 
> :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


As I said earlier in this thread, my local is a contractor's local, they would nip that BS in the bud the second it started.

Believe it or not, some locals do understand that both the customer and the contractor needs to be catered to.


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

when the silent majority lets the vocal minority be their voice to the public, you end up with Obama as president, Al Sharpton as your leader, and dumbass union thugs as the visual majority...

i rag union guys, but the truth is, some of my closest friends are JW's, and i still employ many when the jobs call for it...


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Bob Badger said:


> We were the only non-union contractor on a large job, fairly normal for us and often lead to tensions.


 
Sorry to hear Bob. I worked for a large non-union EC on a job with a union GC and other union EC's doing the low-voltage. It must be an east coast thing, because the only guys that flipped an attitude were the ones coming straight from the hall, and they were far out-numbered. It went very well. Many good hands have crossed over.

Me, I am just a sh1t-stirrer that crossed over. No regrets.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

miller_elex said:


> Sorry to hear Bob. I worked for a large non-union EC on a job with a union GC and other union EC's doing the low-voltage. It must be an east coast thing, because the only guys that flipped an attitude were the ones coming straight from the hall, and they were far out-numbered.


It was not everybody and the frustrating thing was that one on one most of the guys were decent but in front of others they put on a different face.


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## Forrester (Sep 5, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> It was not everybody and the frustrating thing was that one on one most of the guys were decent but in front of others they put on a different face.


Basic mob mentality.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

The funniest thing I saw was a fight between the rod men and carpenters. The rod-men were from DC and the carpenters were from West VA. there had been tension since day one, mostly arguing over who had access to the tower crane for lifting. In the fight they were swinging everything, but the worst was when one carpenter took a handsaw to a rod-men's head, quite a few workers had to go to the hospital, the Alexandria riot squad had to break it up.

Next day it flared up again a rod-men said he was going to get his piece, the carpenter beat him to the draw a 30-06 blew the rod-man's car apart. The GC had all the men replaced.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Can we please close this P.O.S thread. I'm embarrassed to have even taken part in it.


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

slickvic277 said:


> Can we please close this P.O.S thread. I'm embarrassed to have even taken part in it.


What he said ^^


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## Forrester (Sep 5, 2010)

slickvic277 said:


> Can we please close this P.O.S thread. I'm embarrassed to have even taken part in it.


Not until we start paying go-fors, material handlers, and MC pullers a more marketable rate.

You've made 31 posts to this thread, don't backpedal now.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Forrester said:


> Not until we start paying go-fors, material handlers, and MC pullers a more marketable rate.
> 
> You've made 31 posts to this thread, don't backpedal now.



Yeah, I'm ashamed I let your dumb ass suck me in. For awhile I thought you were a legit dude with legit complaints. I went back through the thread, your nothing but a self serving douche trying to make up for your own short comings on the backs of others.

Nothing and I mean nothing is keeping you in the IBEW. Shelve your ticket and go work open shop.



I'm now officially done with this thread.


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## Forrester (Sep 5, 2010)

slickvic277 said:


> Yeah, I'm ashamed I let your dumb ass suck me in.


 You are STILL attacking me. Why not discuss the topic at hand?


> For awhile I thought you were a legit dude with legit complaints.


 I am, and I do have a legitimate complaint. I will reiterate: I feel that part of the reason why union contractors can't compete with non-union contractors is because the union contractors have to pay a set rate for every man, no matter what his skill level or what task he is put on. I do not feel that all men are equal. I feel that if one more classification was initiated, it would help them compete and possibly get more marketshare.


> I went back through the thread, your nothing but a self serving douche trying to make up for your own short comings on the backs of others.


 I disagree. There is nothing to show that other than the fact that you disagree with me. When someone of your maturity level disagrees, they usually turn to insults instead of reason.


> Nothing and I mean nothing is keeping you in the IBEW. Shelve your ticket and go work open shop.


 There is plenty keeping me union, I enjoy being a union member for many reasons. however, unlike you, i understand that the union is not perfect, there are ways to make it better. What I proposed is one way, IMO.



> I'm now officially done with this thread.


 Of course you are done, and you still haven't even discussed the topic.

I'll ask you this once more, since you ignored it the other times I asked:

How do you feel about the tele-data classification?

An "A" JW can do tele-data, altho he would still be paid A rate of $73 per hour. So instead of paying the JW, they bring in a tele-data tech for about $53/hr.

That allows them to compete, it seems to work out, doesn't it? It keeps men working, for a lesser amount since the work is a bit easier and requires a smaller skill set, but it still keeps men working and union contractors competing.

So if that works, what is wrong with a second classification for the high voltage construction wireman? Do you honestly feel that the guys who pull MC their whole career are worth the same amount as the instrumentation tech?


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

slickvic277 said:


> Yeah, I'm ashamed I let your dumb ass suck me in. For awhile I thought you were a legit dude with legit complaints. I went back through the thread, your nothing but a self serving douche trying to make up for your own short comings on the backs of others.
> 
> Nothing and I mean nothing is keeping you in the IBEW. Shelve your ticket and go work open shop.
> 
> ...


 Brother Vic you could have been the champ do not throw in the towel now.All jokes aside this reminds me of a youthful day spent in college with the notion of becoming a shrink, I remembered be referred to as being schizophrenic which essentially means one thinks rationally but act irrationally.The person who started this thread goes against common lore or knowledge among all (union or nonunion) complaining about getting paid too much for a menial job. I asked myself who in the world could this benefit and I sense whom or what entity is a college educated business type who is way past their prime to actually be productive with their physical self but maybe seeing the market share slipping wish to stir a debate in an effort to fish for new ideas. I ask you Vic to not get frustrated and ask yourself who has anything to loose or gain from this thread. Bob, you and I have swapped insults that are not necessary(my opinion) I understand you pains(I have horror stories from the other side myself) I do not think you or I are completely innocent from our past and maybe we just misunderstand each other at times. It is not my intent to change anyone into a union member(this has to be desired)
Look no matter who does what most of us earn our living by our labor so again I wish all those people a wonderful Labor Day. It would be nice to have a truce for at least one day out of the year.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Brother Noah said:


> I understand you pains(I have horror stories from the other side myself) I do not think you or I are completely innocent from our past and maybe we just misunderstand each other at times. .


Please tell at least one tale, I have NEVER heard of open shop men harassing a "BRO".

Seriously the open shop men (I know) avoid union men for fear of complications in their lives, that they do not want.


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## Forrester (Sep 5, 2010)

brian john said:


> Please tell at least one tale, I have NEVER heard of open shop men harassing a "BRO".
> 
> Seriously the open shop men (I know) avoid union men for fear of complications in their lives, that they do not want.


Oh give me a break Brian, all I ever hear from people when they find out I am union is how lazy I am, how I can't be fired, how it takes 5 of us to do the job of 1 man, how we sit around all day, how we start work at 10:00 and leave at 1:00, how would couldn't make any money if the union wasn't protecting us, how bad our work is, how our apprenticeship doesn't teach anything except brainwashing about how great the union is, how we wouldn't be able to make it in "the real world", how we are all communists, and the list goes on and on and on.

You say that you've never heard of an open shop man harassing a "BRO"? Weaksauce. I've been scoffed at and had comments thrown multiple times when at the supply house in a van with a known union contractor name on the side (or wearing a shirt with the contractor name). For you to act like it never happens is simply insane.

There are stereotypes for both sides and both sides harass the other side. This forum itself is a perfect example of that.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Brother Noah said:


> (I have horror stories from the other side myself)


Oh, I see.

Can you describe the times that merit shop workers tried to prevent you from going to work and earning your living by coming to your workplace and blocking the way in?

Or the times a group of merit shop workers tried to pressure a contractor or developer into locking out bids from union shops? 

Do tell, I need to be educated. :whistling2:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> Oh, I see.
> 
> Can you describe the times that merit shop workers tried to prevent you from going to work and earning your living by coming to your workplace and blocking the way in?
> 
> ...


Will you please stop using *facts* to support your argument with these Union guys.. :no:


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## Forrester (Sep 5, 2010)

Black4Truck said:


> Will you please stop using *facts* to support your argument with these Union guys.. :no:


Just about everyone in this thread has been using both facts and opinions to have a discussion. 

Would you like to share, Bob? Not everything you post has to be about your buried boxes or silly 'going rate' shtick.


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> Oh, I see.
> 
> Can you describe the times that merit shop workers tried to prevent you from going to work and earning your living by coming to your workplace and blocking the way in?
> 
> ...


 Anything for you Bob.1992 while living in the home I own in North Augusta South Carolina I applied for Quality Electric(nonunion,merit) Times were tough and our local had allowed us to go apply and work nonunion as long as we reported where, when, who.I had been told by one of my childhood friends who worked for this contractor that they would be building a Publix two blocks from my house soon, I applied then received a call to come in for a test(believe it or not I passed) then an interview, well the gentleman giving the interview was so impressed with my test scores, resume,school background that he offered for me to run this job for this contractor. I was like awesome, I had not worked in 6-8 months had 4 kids at the house to feed and this job was only a couple of blocks from home. After filling out my paperwork I was told I would start Monday morning. I went home to let my wife know everything would be okay that I had gotten this job. Saturday night I received a phone call from the same person who interviewed me to let me know that the owner could tell by my resume that I was union therefore they could not hire me. This is one of several hardships I had trying to just earn a living but being discriminated against for my union background, and you may be right that in this one case no one was yelling nasty things at me but that did not mean jack when I had to apply for food stamps a week later because my unemployment ran out and this happened shortly before Christmas(presents for not one child)
Does this qualify or is more needed.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Brother Noah said:


> Anything for you Bob.1992 while living in the home I own in North Augusta South Carolina I applied for Quality Electric(nonunion,merit) Times were tough and our local had allowed us to go apply and work nonunion as long as we reported where, when, who.I had been told by one of my childhood friends who worked for this contractor that they would be building a Publix two blocks from my house soon, I applied then received a call to come in for a test(believe it or not I passed) then an interview, well the gentleman giving the interview was so impressed with my test scores, resume,school background that he offered for me to run this job for this contractor. I was like awesome, I had not worked in 6-8 months had 4 kids at the house to feed and this job was only a couple of blocks from home. After filling out my paperwork I was told I would start Monday morning. I went home to let my wife know everything would be okay that I had gotten this job. Saturday night I received a phone call from the same person who interviewed me to let me know that the owner could tell by my resume that I was union therefore they could not hire me. This is one of several hardships I had trying to just earn a living but being discriminated against for my union background, and you may be right that in this one case no one was yelling nasty things at me but that did not mean jack when I had to apply for food stamps a week later because my unemployment ran out and this happened shortly before Christmas(presents for not one child)
> Does this qualify or is more needed.


It is just exactly what I expected you to post and has nothing to do with merit shop workers.

No merit shop workers did a anything to you. A merit shop owner did it to you. 

So while I am expected to tolerate union workers blocking me from my job no merit shop workers stop you from doing anything.:no:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Forrester said:


> Just about everyone in this thread has been using both facts and opinions to have a discussion.
> 
> Would you like to share, Bob? Not everything you post has to be about your buried boxes or silly 'going rate' shtick.


You seem to know quite a few facts for a new guy.. what was your original account name before it was removed??


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

Ironically this tread is still on topic, tho somehow we once again made absolutely no progress. = FAIL


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## Forrester (Sep 5, 2010)

Black4Truck said:


> You seem to know quite a few facts for a new guy.. what was your original account name before it was removed??


Jeeze, get with the program.

BTW, I have like 3 usernames on your Friends list :thumbup:


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Black4Truck said:


> Will you please stop using *facts* to support your argument with these Union guys.. :no:


 
:whistling2::thumbup::laughing:


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Forrester said:


> Jeeze, get with the program.
> 
> BTW, I have like 3 usernames on your Friends list :thumbup:



Thanks for taking the time to prove one of my earlier points. :thumbsup:


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## Forrester (Sep 5, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> Thanks for taking the time to prove one of my earlier points. :thumbsup:


Which point is that?


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> Thanks for taking the time to prove one of my earlier points. :thumbsup:


First time I ever saw someone put their foot in their mouth on this forum..:thumbup:


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## Forrester (Sep 5, 2010)

Black4Truck said:


> First time I ever saw someone put their foot in their mouth on this forum..:thumbup:


Stop PMing me.


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> It is just exactly what I expected you to post and has nothing to do with merit shop workers.
> 
> No merit shop workers did a anything to you. A merit shop owner did it to you.
> 
> So while I am expected to tolerate union workers blocking me from my job no merit shop workers stop you from doing anything.:no:


 OH now I See Bob it makes a difference exactly who did the damage to you personally that determines the severity and or if it is right or wrong? So did these bad people cause you economic harm or did you poop your pants or maybe you just got mad and went the other way out of fear? I would like to understand how in your case you were harassed but were able to make a living the majority of the harsh times you refer but because it was the contractor that caused me hardships that it makes my experiences of less importance.Like I posted I have experienced other cases of hardship but why don't we just pull our manhood out to prove who is a better man?Really Bob I am interested in earning a living and if I can help the IBEW in any way I will.I have no intentions on attacking you are anyone else for plying their trade(except maybe ones that cross those picket lines, I hear so much about but do not see) As posted before bless all working class on our holiday.Bob I do hope you get over the trauma of this past abuse and the anxiety's it causes you.If you get it all together, there is no telling how productive you could be. Smile Bob it is labor day.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Forrester said:


> Stop PMing me.


I thought you were Peter and I sent you (1) PM.. you will never get another.. trust me.. :thumbsup:


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## Forrester (Sep 5, 2010)

Black4Truck said:


> I thought you were Peter and I sent you (1) PM.. you will never get another.. trust me.. :thumbsup:


And a message on my profile, jeeze.

Peter is my special friend, for $1 I will relay a message to him.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Brother Noah said:


> OH now I See Bob it makes a difference exactly who did the damage to you personally that determines the severity and or if it is right or wrong?


Yes as far as it making a difference in this thread.

No to it being right or wrong, the owners should not treat you wrong, but are you now saying the pickets treated me wrong? 




> So did these bad people cause you economic harm or did you poop your pants or maybe you just got mad and went the other way out of fear?


I thought you were above throwing insults? 




> I would like to understand how in your case you were harassed but were able to make a living the majority of the harsh times you refer but because it was the contractor that caused me hardships that it makes my experiences of less importance.


Well it might be because the union is supposed to be for the workers and not against the workers.




> Bob I do hope you get over the trauma of this past abuse and the anxiety's it causes you.If you get it all together, there is no telling how productive you could be.


No trauma just the facts.

Here is a little thought experiment for you, see if you can honestly think about this.

Lets say you show up for work one day and a group of merit shop workers was stopping you from going to work and earning your living.

Would your first reaction be? 

_'Hey this is a swell group of guys, I should join them and be just like them'_


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

I thought you were above throwing insults? 




Well it might be because the union is supposed to be for the workers and not against the workers.




No trauma just the facts.

Here is a little thought experiment for you, see if you can honestly think about this.

Lets say you show up for work one day and a group of merit shop workers was stopping you from going to work and earning your living.

Would your first reaction be? 

_'Hey this is a swell group of guys, I should join them and be just like them'_[/quote]
I did not intend my statement to be an insult but an ironic remark related to your defiance to something good over evil. Okay now did those guys have the common union uniform on or maybe ID badges? How do you know they were not merit shop workers pretending to be union members to either give the union a bad name or maybe it was Halloween.Come on Bob I have never put my hands on a person in in effort to stop them from earning a living nor have I seen this happen, you say it happened to you okay lets say we believe you(consider yourself lucky and one of a kind) besides we (yes you and I and many others are top side dirt today) when can hater's flame be doused.Let go Bob for your own sake(I do not ask you to forget just let it go before it eats you up) Your insecurities are in aglow so I ask were you a bully in your youth Bob, did you make fun of others, pick tease etc. It appears that the inner conscious just can not let go when it happened to you it was something special that we should all be aware of and never forget(okay I will tell my grand kids about you but hey they might be working next to you, I do miss crabbing in the bay) It will be okay Bob.


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## Forrester (Sep 5, 2010)

Brother Noah, is the quote function really that hard to figure out??


Brother Noah said:


> Come on Bob I have never put my hands on a person in in effort to stop them from earning a living nor have I seen this happen, you say it happened to you okay lets say we believe you(consider yourself lucky and one of a kind)


What I believe he is talking about are picket lines in which the members intentionally block non-union workers from entering a construction site. I mentioned this earlier in the thread as a picket line that I left after I saw how it was done. Apparently, it's perfectly legal as long as you keep moving, so they have the guys walk as slow as they possibly can in front of the trucks trying to enter. Once one guy is almost past the front of the truck, the next guy starts walking, shameful.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

The phrase " You never get a second chance to make a FIRST impression", comes to mind. If a person had a bad experience with union people, or ANY people for that matter, it is ingrained in them. It is hard to shake off...I've been there. I can say that I am a strong union guy and have been on many picket lines and I have yet to be accosted by a non-union worker, and I never caused them grief. Information should be given about the pros and cons and then just let people make their own mind up...BY THE VOTE.


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## Forrester (Sep 5, 2010)

RIVETER said:


> The phrase " You never get a chance to make a FIRST impression", comes to mind.


 Do you mean to say "_You only get one chance to make a first impression_"??


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Forrester said:


> Do you mean to say "_You only get one chance to make a first impression_"??


You are right. See, I screwed up again. I am making cabbage for my bride and I typed too fast and forgot. It is nice to know that I AM human, though.:thumbsup: On second thought, the cabbage was already made, I'm just cooking it.


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

Brother Noah said:


> OH now I See Bob it makes a difference exactly who did the damage to you personally that determines the severity and or if it is right or wrong? So did these bad people cause you economic harm or did you poop your pants or maybe you just got mad and went the other way out of fear? I would like to understand how in your case you were harassed but were able to make a living the majority of the harsh times you refer but because it was the contractor that caused me hardships that it makes my experiences of less importance.Like I posted I have experienced other cases of hardship but why don't we just pull our manhood out to prove who is a better man?Really Bob I am interested in earning a living and if I can help the IBEW in any way I will.I have no intentions on attacking you are anyone else for plying their trade(except maybe ones that cross those picket lines, I hear so much about but do not see) As posted before bless all working class on our holiday.Bob I do hope you get over the trauma of this past abuse and the anxiety's it causes you.If you get it all together, there is no telling how productive you could be. Smile Bob it is labor day.


you don't get it Noah...here is the difference:

Bob has a job with Company A...he is hired and paid by Company A...the site they are working on is being picketed by the IBEW...during the picket, the IBEW blocks access to the site and stops Bob from working that day...The IBEW has no business with Bob or with Company A...they have no right to stop progress...Bob has no affiliation with the IBEW...

in your case, the owner of Company B decides that you would not be a good fit for Company B. So he does not hire you. He's not stopping you from working for company C, D, E, F, G, etc...he just made a decision that he doesn't want to be responsible for having you on his payroll...maybe he's had bad experiences in the past with salts...maybe he was afraid that 2 months into the job, the IBEW would call you back, and you'd run off...whatever the reason, he decided that he didn't want to hire you..

there is a big difference between a 3rd party (the IBEW) stopping progress of 2 other parties that they have no affiliation with, and an instance where party 1 decides not to hire party 2...

does that make sense?


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Brother Noah said:


> Here is a little thought experiment for you, see if you can honestly think about this.
> 
> Lets say you show up for work one day and a group of merit shop workers was stopping you from going to work and earning your living.
> 
> ...




This is not very brotherly! :bangin:


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## Widestance_Politics (Jun 2, 2010)

Forrester said:


> Do you mean to say "_You only get one chance to make a first impression_"??


Looks to me that he meant what he actually typed, which is actually the exact same statement that you typed.....


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Widestance_Politics said:


> Looks to me that he meant what he actually typed, which is actually the exact same statement that you typed.....


After he pointed it out to me I changed it. I thought it would show up as an edit...but it didn't.


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## millerdrr (Jun 26, 2009)

*_scratches head_

Can't say I ever remember seeing a web thread where people who agree with each other are also fighting...

I saw the airline union issue earlier. I am a commercial pilot; went to Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University. Was...now, I'm an electrician. I made that switch for a reason.

Sure, the major airlines have very high wages. They are available for public record on willflyforfood.com. However, the airlines consistently ignore the fact that they don't have that many pilots, nor do they have many that fit in the upper pay scales.

Put it this way: you can buy a ticket at the Delta/American/USAir/whoever counter, see employees in the respective uniform, and the plane has the right color scheme on the paint job, but....unless you are flying overseas or on a plane holding more than several hundred people, flying between New York and LA, odds are strong that you are actually flying on a subcontractor airline.

Those salaries look impressive, until you realize that practically every pilot flying domestically is on a much lower scale. $30/hour is crap pay, considering that pursuant to FAR Part 91, no commercial pilot can fly more than 100 hrs per month, nor more than 1000 hrs per year.

On a domestic flight, you are probably flying Expressjet/Pinnacle/PSA/TSA/Comair/American Eagle or any of the multitude of low end airlines. They are owned by execs of the major airlines. The pilots are paid less than most waitresses. The airlines claim they can't compete, even though they own them, and gave them the contracts, while simultaneously taking government subsidies for providing air service to smaller cities. The major airline "sells" goods (uniforms, fuel, deicing, maintenance, etc...) that the sub can't afford on its own, so even though the sub is just being billed by its owner, the sub files bankruptcy.

The US taxpayer comes rushing to the aid of the airlines. 

The mob calls it a bustout. The airlines call it "good biz".:whistling2:


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## Forrester (Sep 5, 2010)

Widestance_Politics said:


> Looks to me that he meant what he actually typed, which is actually the exact same statement that you typed.....


He edited his post, see the quoted text in my post. Thanks for playing.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

Forrester said:


> Not until we start paying go-fors, material handlers, and MC pullers a more marketable rate.
> 
> You've made 31 posts to this thread, don't backpedal now.


Fortunately.. you don't matter in the larger scheme of the IBEW or the industry in general. So keep jerking off in front of your computer about this and see how far it gets you. :thumbup:


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

slickvic277 said:


> Can we please close this P.O.S thread. I'm embarrassed to have even taken part in it.





gold said:


> What he said ^^


^ what they said


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## Forrester (Sep 5, 2010)

nitro71 said:


> Fortunately.. you don't matter in the larger scheme of the IBEW or the industry in general.


 Well no sh1t, and here I am thinking that I was Ed Hill's right hand man 



> So keep jerking off in front of your computer about this and see how far it gets you. :thumbup:


Yet again, another silly childish comment. However, not a single stitch of credible evidence why my point is not valid.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

nitro71 said:


> Fortunately.. you don't matter in the larger scheme of the IBEW or the industry in general. So keep jerking off in front of your computer about this and see how far it gets you. :thumbup:


Do you really think he is doing that? Ee-eww. Maybe he can start another thread and they'll make it a STICKEY.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> Do you really think he is doing that? Ee-eww. Maybe he can start another thread and they'll make it a STICKEY.


 Riveter, you have a dirty mind.. come to think of it, so do I.


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

So what has been posted since the last time I checked in it seems to me that Bob has been affected in a negative manner because someone put a LEGAL picket on a gate that he feels their cause had nothing to do with him so the unions suck as a whole?Yet I was first hired then called and told I could not work for this contractor because I was union(a legal violation of state and federal law) and somehow the two do not compare?WHY? I do understand that in the past the union has used some tactics(even if they were legal might be considered unethical) in their efforts to gain more work for their employee's but still some on this board say that does not compare to a union member's family having no Christmas because of an unethical contractors decision? Even though I was part of this I still have to say I feel it was wrong. This contractor said "I can not put you to work because you are union" again someone please give me a viable explanation to why this is okay.
I know we are all human and we behave in an unfavorable way at times when we should represent by example for our beliefs.It is sad what has happened to you what 8-9 years ago Bob I wish you well in your future adventures through the painful barricades of life.


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## millerdrr (Jun 26, 2009)

Shoulda sued, BrotherNoah. Union membership might count under the "creed" part of antidiscrimination laws.


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

Brother Noah said:


> This contractor said "I can not put you to work because you are union" again someone please give me a viable explanation to why this is okay.


because, even though you're local was unable to procure you work, and decided to look the other way, your bylaws still were in effect...

and, as a private company, in an at-will state, he had and has the right to do what he thinks is best for his company....and that might not be hiring someone who will drop him the instant the hall calls with a job...


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

A forum owner or maybe an admin could pull Foressters IP that logs on the site and cross reference it to prior log ins. Would be super easy for a Unix admin to pull that information. IP's do change but if he's logging in with multiple user accounts it would be easy to spot him.


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## millerdrr (Jun 26, 2009)

nitro71 said:


> A forum owner or maybe an admin could pull Foressters IP that logs on the site and cross reference it to prior log ins. Would be super easy for a Unix admin to pull that information. IP's do change but if he's logging in with multiple user accounts it would be easy to spot him.


Post #290 and 294. MDShunk


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> Forrester is actually behaving himself under this user name, so despite convention, I'm letting him alone.


This has been discussed between us and is the case. When all is said and done he will have one name and one name only.
We are taking him on his work. :thumbsup:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Speedy Petey said:


> This has been discussed between us and is the case. When all is said and done he will have one name and one name only.
> We are taking him on his work. :thumbsup:


That is very kind of you guys to let him stay.. can you tell us what other names he used on here??

He said a few on them are on my "friends" list


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Speedy Petey said:


> This has been discussed between us and is the case. When all is said and done he will have one name and one name only.
> We are taking him on his work. :thumbsup:


Sounds good to me. :thumbsup:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

That was quick.. I thought he was staying.. :blink:

Forrester28 
Registered Member

Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: NJ
Posts: 52


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

oldman said:


> because, even though you're local was unable to procure you work, and decided to look the other way, your bylaws still were in effect...
> 
> and, as a private company, in an at-will state, he had and has the right to do what he thinks is best for his company....and that might not be hiring someone who will drop him the instant the hall calls with a job...


I guess no matter how much effort I try to be nice when ever I have felt like I was being screwed the fighter mentality takes over.Yes I actually got in touch with NLRB who investigated and prosecuted this said contractor to the fullest extent of the law.This case was drawn out by the contractor for 3 years in which they lost in state and federal court. I myself did very little but file the complaint and gave a couple of hours for court.I received no monetary damages(they filed bankrupt, besides it was not my desire, I just wanted a JOB)
The point I am trying to express is if something bad happens to you, then do something about it and get over it, get on with your life.To hold anger inside against a group because a few bad examples will cause you a life long road to problems dealing with society.


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

Brother Noah said:


> I guess no matter how much effort I try to be nice when ever I have felt like I was being screwed the fighter mentality takes over.Yes I actually got in touch with NLRB who investigated and prosecuted this said contractor to the fullest extent of the law.This case was drawn out by the contractor for 3 years in which they lost in state and federal court. I myself did very little but file the complaint and gave a couple of hours for court.I received no monetary damages(they filed bankrupt, besides it was not my desire, I just wanted a JOB)
> The point I am trying to express is if something bad happens to you, then do something about it and get over it, get on with your life.To hold anger inside against a group because a few bad examples will cause you a life long road to problems dealing with society.


This is me not saying what I really want to say.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Brother Noah said:


> The point I am trying to express is if something bad happens to you, then do something about it and get over it, get on with your life.To hold anger inside against a group because a few bad examples will cause you a life long road to problems dealing with society.


And the point I am trying to make and that you seem to be missing entirly is this.

I am not alone, it is not just me that gets treated like crap by picketers. 

If the goal of the union is to increase its market share and membership they need to stop doing things that alienate potential members.

Again I ask you nicely


If any organized group prevented you from earning your living would your first thought be ....

_
I should join this group._

Honestly would that be how you would react?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> That is very kind of you guys to let him stay.. can you tell us what other names he used on here??
> 
> He said a few on them are on my "friends" list


Interlock, JLA, and Fusion. Altho Fusion might have been PeterD and I might have been Fission, I forget which one.



Black4Truck said:


> That was quick.. I thought he was staying.. :blink:


I asked for an old username. I don't think this is my original, but it's close to it.


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

HackWork said:


> I asked for an old username. I don't think this is my original, but it's close to it.


What is your purpose?


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> And the point I am trying to make and that you seem to be missing entirly is this.
> 
> I am not alone, it is not just me that gets treated like crap by picketers.
> 
> ...


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Dnkldorf said:


> What is your purpose?


To tell everyone how electrical contractors price gouge all their work and charge WAY too much, and that charging enough to cover their overhead is highway robbery. 

Oh wait, that is *you* who does that :blink:


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Brother Noah said:


> I understand what you are asking


It is painfully obvious you do not.



> and I am saying that in your position I would feel hostile and want to fight for what is right then GET ON WITH LIFE!


I am 'over it' and have a great job.

That is not the point 

IT IS NOT ABOUT ME!

It is about every potential union supporter that has been alienated by the actions of picketers.

That hurts the unions goals.




> You are trying to emphasize the fact that this was a organized group(union) that did this to you and nonunion workers do not do this(granted) but this contractor was a very organized group


FORGET ABOUT YOU, FORGET ABOUT ME!

Think of the damage the unions due to themselves by acting like jerks to those around a picket.





> (I guess they had the same type of long term hostility that infects you Bob?)


You are a broken record, I have no hostility, I do not wish the unions to be gone.

I hope that the unions grow up and start acting responsibly and maybe they will increase their market share which could be good for both sides.



> I am only saying for your sake it does not have to be that way.


It is not that way for me, that is all up in your head. 




> I am not asking you to join our group or in this case our union.


Forget about me, I am happy were I am.

Consider the others that have not been exposed to anything union. If there first encounter with the unions goes poorly they will remember that and that will not help anyone.




> We all have the ability to be kind or evil to each other but if drag all our past remorse and rues it will cut into our efforts at any sort of inner peace


There is that broken record again, you keep saying it's in the past. It is not in the past this very day there are large inflatable rats on job sites and picketers calling people scabs.

That hurts your precious union, it does not help it.

How can you be so blinded?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> I have no hostility,


Let's be honest Bob, you do have quite a bit of hostility towards the union. If you didn't, you wouldn't spend so much time in the Union Topics forum arguing about it.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> There is that broken record again, you keep saying it's in the past. It is not in the past this very day there are large inflatable rats on job sites and picketers calling people scabs.
> 
> That hurts your precious union, it does not help it.
> 
> How can you be so blinded?


Noah has ZERO credibility and he has proven that time and time again. All he has to do is come to Massachusetts and drive around to some job sites. Even then he'd deny what is right in front of him.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

HackWork said:


> Let's be honest Bob, you do have quite a bit of hostility towards the union. If you didn't, you wouldn't spend so much time in the Union Topics forum arguing about it.


Lets do that, lets be honest, if a multi-user name person can be. 


Here are some simple questions.

1) Are you proud to be an America?

I will assume yes.

2) Do you ever criticize Americas direction or leadership?

I will assume yes.

3) Does that mean you have hostility against America?


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Closed by request.


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