# Block wall construction.



## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

So being mostly a residential electrician I'm a little lost on piping as the block goes up. I think I have the cinder block portion worked out and if I don't it's too late now because the boxes and pipe are in the walls. Never having done it before I had them a little pissed until I asked what kind of beer they wanted from the liquor store, the mood cheered right up. My actual questions though involve when brick is going on the exterior of the block. I was told anything facing out would have to go between the block and the brick in the void. Do I use normal masonry boxes for this or something else? My prints call for those to be vertical boxes for the receptacles-is this typical or should I request from the architect to turn them horizontal? And the last thing for the moment is wall sconces-do I use the normal single gang for these as well or do the make a better box for the application?


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## kbsparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Normal "mud" boxes are fine for these applications, including the wall sconces.

How many couplings did you have to use? We had to cut the conduits into 2' lengths and provide a slew of couplings on the last such job we did .... :whistling2:


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## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

I asked if 30" would work for them and they said that was fine by them. I had an apprentice pre fab up a couple bundles of 1/2" with a coupling on one end of each yesterday after I realized they were laying block-no one bothered giving me notice so this was a mad scramble to get boxes on site in time. I got to the supply house and back in time to sit around for 1/2 an hour and then slam an hours worth of work into 20 minutes and then sit around again for a while. So I had plenty of time to second guess myself and kick myself after a course or two was on top of the boxes.


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## tkb (Jan 21, 2009)

kbsparky said:


> Normal "mud" boxes are fine for these applications, including the wall sconces.
> 
> How many couplings did you have to use? We had to cut the conduits into 2' lengths and provide a slew of couplings on the last such job we did .... :whistling2:


The masons are usually OK with 40" lengths.


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

tkb said:


> The masons are usually OK with 40" lengths.


yeah I use to cut them in 3rd's


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## walkerj (May 13, 2007)

Prefab is very important.

Sent from your mom's iPhone. She says hi.


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## walkerj (May 13, 2007)

It works out perfectly for receptacles and data drops to cut 3 32" sections with a stub on one and one 24" section to go on the box. Your couplings will fall out in the middle of whatever course you need to add another link to. ( assuming 10' or less ceilings, roughly )

Duct tape is your friend. 

Don't forget your ground screws. 

Make friends. 

Try to keep up. 

Repeat as needed.

Sent from your mom's iPhone. She says hi.


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## cultch (Aug 2, 2011)

It seems as though chasing the masons is NEVER planned out correctly. Never have any lead time. It seems as though this is a situation where the gc could organize the timeline a little better.

It's a simple job if you have a 'little' time to plan for it.

I will never forget the time my boss decided that the whole company would take off on fridays. They would work 4 10's. Since at the time I could not I would work fridays by myself. 

Me vs. 40 masons. Oh well...most of it got in there.

You may have to figure out what 'depth' boxes with what rings will make it nice and flush.

Don't see any reason why they couldn't be vertical.


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## walkerj (May 13, 2007)

For outdoor boxes in brick, I run the pipe in the block and stub out to go in the back of a masonry box flush with the brick.

Sent from your mom's iPhone. She says hi.


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## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

Any overwhelming reason I couldn't use PVC jacketed MC in between the block and the exterior brick?


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## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

And for that matter would i need to even use PVC jacketed since it's not being filled? I would notch through at the top in 1 or 2 spots and then sleeve that in something to keep it off the cement.


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## Electro481 (Jan 3, 2011)

Any one ever used PVC in Block walls?


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## mbednarik (Oct 10, 2011)

I can't think of any reason why PVC wouldn't work. I think it may be a little faster with PVC. I worked for a guy once that tried smurf tube in 10' coils. I am surprised the mason's didn't slash his tires.


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## chewy (May 9, 2010)

Electro481 said:


> Any one ever used PVC in Block walls?


All thats ever used in NZ and everyone seems ok


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## Julius793 (Nov 29, 2011)

anybody ever try smurf tube in a poured concrete and stub up for each outlet? how did it go?


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## btharmy (Jan 17, 2009)

Electro481 said:


> Any one ever used PVC in Block walls?


Yes. For a previous employer I chased brickies for 3 months as a 5th yr apprentice. All pvc into masonry boxes. 30" lengths, couplings, duct tape. I can imagine the material and labor cost savings over emt was huge on a project as large as a major school expansion.


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## xlink (Mar 12, 2012)

Julius793 said:


> anybody ever try smurf tube in a poured concrete and stub up for each outlet? how did it go?


Not every one but a couple dozen. Hitting a future wall is time consuming and the cement guys destroy stubs unless they are protected. The worst part is that you still need to deal with the masons and their 5 am start time when they want to avoid the afternoon heat.


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## glen1971 (Oct 10, 2012)

btharmy said:


> Yes. For a previous employer I chased brickies for 3 months as a 5th yr apprentice. All pvc into masonry boxes. 30" lengths, couplings, duct tape. I can imagine the material and labor cost savings over emt was huge on a project as large as a major school expansion.


What labour savings? Cut a bundle of conduit at a time.. The brickies add each piece of conduit after the first one.. You are around for the receptacles, switches, fire alarm/lights in upper courses and when the conduits come out of the wall... 

Why duct tape?


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## running dummy (Mar 19, 2009)

glen1971 said:


> What labour savings? Cut a bundle of conduit at a time.. The brickies add each piece of conduit after the first one.. You are around for the receptacles, switches, fire alarm/lights in upper courses and when the conduits come out of the wall...
> 
> Why duct tape?


I still don't think those guys know what a screwdriver is... I don't think my brickies tightened any of my couplings :no:


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

running dummy said:


> I still don't think those guys know what a screwdriver is... I don't think my brickies tightened any of my couplings :no:


Why were they messing with the conduits?


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## running dummy (Mar 19, 2009)

hardworkingstiff said:


> Why were they messing with the conduits?


The previous post that I quoted implied the brickies adding on the 40" sections of conduit for the electrician. I've tried this on smaller block projects and it worked out ok, except that they didn't get the concept of tightening the set screw once the next piece is put on.


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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

Electro481 said:


> Any one ever used PVC in Block walls?


Yes, works great.

I've only done one block job, it was for a school gymnasium. I'll mention a few things I learned.

Prep as much as you can. Can't stress that enough. Get your boxes ready and taped up, connectors, ma's, ground screws/pigtails installed.

Use tie wire out the 6-32 holes in the front to wrap around a scrap piece of conduit to help hold the box flush with the front of the block.

Plan your conduit routes ahead of time. Make sure you aren't stubbing up under a window, etc.

Buy the brickies beer.

For single gang boxes with two conduits out the same end, I found 4 sq deep with a deep SG mud ring WAY EASIER to work with than trying to get two conduits out one end of a deep single gang masonry box. Trust me on this! I got that tip from Infinity! Saved my butt on that job.

I used upside down paint to paint lines on the ground next to the wall to show where boxes would go above. It also helps you keep track of your stubs too, so you don't miss any as the wall go up. You just gotta keep the mortar scraped off your lines when the brickies start slopping it around.

Ask the brickies how long to make your stubs. Ours let us make them pretty long, but I'm sure brickies all have different preferences.

If you need a hollow void in poured block to recess a fixture, etc have the brickies cut it out and fill it with pieces of rigid foam insulation board. 

Good luck.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Electro481 said:


> Any one ever used PVC in Block walls?



That is like asking me if I ever used a wire nut.... All the time.


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

MF Dagger said:


> So being mostly a residential electrician I'm a little lost on piping as the block goes up. I think I have the cinder block portion worked out and if I don't it's too late now because the boxes and pipe are in the walls. Never having done it before I had them a little pissed until I asked what kind of beer they wanted from the liquor store, the mood cheered right up. My actual questions though involve when brick is going on the exterior of the block. I was told anything facing out would have to go between the block and the brick in the void. Do I use normal masonry boxes for this or something else? My prints call for those to be vertical boxes for the receptacles-is this typical or should I request from the architect to turn them horizontal? And the last thing for the moment is wall sconces-do I use the normal single gang for these as well or do the make a better box for the application?


40" for your jumps is usually the norm . You'll get three 40" pieces out of a 10' length of conduit . The masons can go five courses before they're calling for you for the next piece . That's usually fine by them because they don't like lifting the block that high ( especially 12" block ) . Mud boxes turned horizontal in brick usually works better with the coursing , than vertically based on the width of the brick . Another way to win the masons over is to have your 90's out of the wall work out with the coursing too so they're only notching the block a little . Sometimes , they pour the walls solid with a grout slurry . If you get on a job like that , you need to use plenty of duct tape around your couplings and connectors or you could have a very bad day , lol ! That stuff will get in anywhere and sets up like concrete ! Some guys like to offset out of the wall instead of a stub 90 , but I always preferred stubs . It's a matter of preference . I would prefab as much as I could ahead and would continue to do so while the wall was going up . It's not that hard and becomes second nature on no time . Having a good working relationship with the masons helps a lot too ! They love beer , lol !


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

drumnut08 said:


> ........They love beer , lol !


And Krispie Kremes.


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

MF Dagger said:


> So being mostly a residential electrician I'm a little lost on piping as the block goes up. I think I have the cinder block portion worked out and if I don't it's too late now because the boxes and pipe are in the walls. Never having done it before I had them a little pissed until I asked what kind of beer they wanted from the liquor store, the mood cheered right up. My actual questions though involve when brick is going on the exterior of the block. I was told anything facing out would have to go between the block and the brick in the void. Do I use normal masonry boxes for this or something else? My prints call for those to be vertical boxes for the receptacles-is this typical or should I request from the architect to turn them horizontal? And the last thing for the moment is wall sconces-do I use the normal single gang for these as well or do the make a better box for the application?


I was never a big fan of mud boxes unless I was coming out of the back for an exterior fixture , or camera . I preferred using 2 1/8" deep 1900 boxes with different gang and depth tile rings ( not plaster rings ) 1 1/2" deep rings work good on up to 8" wide block . 10 and 12" the web on the block is thicker and holds the boxes back too far from the face . I was never a fan of PVC in block walls . Duct tape your boxes up real well too , because a good mason , is going to mud in all around the box and make it flush . The real good ones parge over the front too and fill in any voids from too big a box cut . I worked for a commercial contractor for 18 years and 75% of his work was new schools with block walls , so I learned a few things over the years , lol ! Construction today , seems to be phasing masonry walls out a bit . Structural steel studs , Sheetrock and maybe a brick exterior veneer is what you mostly see now a days .


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

glen1971 said:


> What labour savings? Cut a bundle of conduit at a time.. The brickies add each piece of conduit after the first one.. You are around for the receptacles, switches, fire alarm/lights in upper courses and when the conduits come out of the wall...
> 
> Why duct tape?


The duct tape ( or in reality gaffers tape ) is to prevent schtuff from getting into the boxes. Put a stub onto a connector into a box and tape the opening of the box. I usually given the couplings a quick wrap as well but that is unnecessary.

You ought to put the conduits on yourself, you cannot count on the brickies tightening connectors and couplings or to not miss a pipe.

Personally I hate chasing the brickies but unless you have an electrician on it, you cannot predict the end result.


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## glen1971 (Oct 10, 2012)

drumnut08 said:


> Another way to win the masons over is to have your 90's out of the wall work out with the coursing too so they're only notching the block a little . Sometimes , they pour the walls solid with a grout slurry . If you get on a job like that , you need to use plenty of duct tape around your couplings and connectors or you could have a very bad day , lol ! That stuff will get in anywhere and sets up like concrete ! Some guys like to offset out of the wall instead of a stub 90 , but I always preferred stubs . It's a matter of preference . I would prefab as much as I could ahead and would continue to do so while the wall was going up . It's not that hard and becomes second nature on no time . Having a good working relationship with the masons helps a lot too ! They love beer , lol !


I liked doing the offsets, then if you needed to run parallel with the wall you could, without a box.. Either using an offset or a 90, lining it up so they only have to notch part of the block is key... Never seen them use a slurry, just concrete... That would be a good thing to remember on a slurry job! 

There is good beer and better beer, but the best beer are free!


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

glen1971 said:


> I liked doing the offsets, then if you needed to run parallel with the wall you could, without a box.. Either using an offset or a 90, lining it up so they only have to notch part of the block is key... Never seen them use a slurry, just concrete... That would be a good thing to remember on a slurry job!
> 
> There is good beer and better beer, but the best beer are free!


Agreed , lol ! The offsets work well if you have a semi competent group of brick layers ( that's hard to come by ) . It's amazing some of these guys can get dressed in the morning ! When I would lay out a wall , I'd lay the boxes on the first ( layout ) course , I'd have what course it went in , too or bottom , and would also write on the duct taped box with sharpie . Any easier , I'd be making the block cuts and laying the wall , lol ! Most got it , but one or two would screw it up in a heartbeat . Does it go here ? Is that the the sixth course ? No well , it doesn't go there does it , lol ! A lot of funny stories with bricklayers over the years . Had a guy put a switch box in the third course right after I just got done telling him 48" to the top . It's an experience .


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

eejack said:


> The duct tape ( or in reality gaffers tape ) is to prevent schtuff from getting into the boxes. Put a stub onto a connector into a box and tape the opening of the box. I usually given the couplings a quick wrap as well but that is unnecessary.
> 
> You ought to put the conduits on yourself, you cannot count on the brickies tightening connectors and couplings or to not miss a pipe.
> 
> Personally I hate chasing the brickies but unless you have an electrician on it, you cannot predict the end result.


I've been on jobs where the foreman didn't think it was necessary to have someone on bricklayer duty . That goes horribly wrong real quick ! Not to mention in all honesty , it's not their job to put conduits together , let alone tighten the couplings . I'd rather do it myself and know there will be no problems when I go to put wire in that pipe down the line . It's a necessary evil of the trade . Ones I trusted who were good would help me out if I was with another crew a d put the jumps on and tighten them . They took care of me because I I didn't break their balls and took the time to learn all their names . One hand washes the other .


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