# AFCI's for a heavy-up



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

The NEC doesn't say, so it's the _AHJ's call_.

Speaking of_ AHJ_ and _call_, why not just drop the dime and call the AHJ?


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

I'll be the dumb one.....
What's a "heavy up"?:blink:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

A Little Short said:


> I'll be the dumb one.....
> What's a "heavy up"?:blink:


Installing a new service that's of a higher amp rating than what it's replacing. As in tearing out 100a service and installing 200a.


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## Selectric (Aug 18, 2009)

The way I understand the 2014 NEC, if you do not need to extend any "required" circuit six feet or more, adding AFCI protection is not required.


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## DENorcal (Dec 24, 2012)

Why is there so much resistance in installing AFCI's? How much mark up is there on a $5 breaker vs. a $40 breaker? You guys are loosing material profits without having to do any additional work. Sell the freaking things! (The only contract clause you should have regarding AFCI's is 'any additional repairs to existing branch circuits due to code required AFCI breakers will be an additional charge'.)

Aren't you installing a new panel with enough space/capacity?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

DENorcal said:


> Why is there so much resistance in installing AFCI's? How much mark up is there on a $5 breaker vs. a $40 breaker? You guys are loosing material profits without having to do any additional work. Sell the freaking things! (The only contract clause you should have regarding AFCI's is 'any additional repairs to existing branch circuits due to code required AFCI breakers will be an additional charge'.)
> 
> Aren't you installing a new panel with enough space/capacity?


Installing AFCI's on existing circuits that can be up to 75 years old can cause serious headaches and cost a TON of money. If a customer is looking at 'just adding a couple circuits to a full panel' and ends up with a $18,0000 proposal, you ain't gonna make diddly squat.


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## DENorcal (Dec 24, 2012)

But 480, it seems you are assuming the EC has a decision to add the AFCI's or not. The AHJ (or code) will tell you right up front.

If something cost a ton of money because the AHJ or code requires you to, then you are just the messenger of the bad news to the client. And if you don't uphold the standards of the AHJ or code, then what kind of service are you really offering your clients?

Are you saying you would rather choose to do a non-compliant install just to gain the project?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

DENorcal said:


> But 480, it seems you are assuming the EC has a decision to add the AFCI's or not. The AHJ (or code) will tell you right up front.
> 
> If something cost a ton of money because the AHJ or code requires you to, then you are just the messenger of the bad news to the client. And if you don't uphold the standards of the AHJ or code, then what kind of service are you really offering your clients?
> 
> Are you saying you would rather choose to do a non-compliant install just to gain the project?



No, I'm saying you ain't gonna do the project at all after the customer keels over from a coronary.


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## pete87 (Oct 22, 2012)

DENorcal said:


> Why is there so much resistance in installing AFCI's? How much mark up is there on a $5 breaker vs. a $40 breaker? You guys are loosing material profits without having to do any additional work. Sell the freaking things! (The only contract clause you should have regarding AFCI's is 'any additional repairs to existing branch circuits due to code required AFCI breakers will be an additional charge'.)
> 
> Aren't you installing a new panel with enough space/capacity?




Because AFCI's are a Burden on the Consumer to Bear the Cost .
I will hate to see How long They Last ? 

I would not want to warranty them .

Bring Back the Edison Fuse !



Pete


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## pete87 (Oct 22, 2012)

480sparky said:


> Installing AFCI's on existing circuits that can be up to 75 years old can cause serious headaches and cost a TON of money. If a customer is looking at 'just adding a couple circuits to a full panel' and ends up with a $18,0000 proposal, you ain't gonna make diddly squat.




Well Said 480 !

It seems that a customer is better served Getting 2 New Circuits to handle the Load . Much Safer to get that Load off of Existing Wiring .



Pete


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

pete87 said:


> Well Said 480 !
> 
> It seems that a customer is better served Getting 2 New Circuits to handle the Load . Much Safer to get that Load off of Existing Wiring .
> 
> ...



Hence the high $ price. Replacing circuits in a 100-year-old 3-story is no fun. Especially when the residents are living in it.


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Installing a new service that's of a higher amp rating than what it's replacing. As in tearing out 100a service and installing 200a.


Oh, regional terminology.
Too hard to say "service change or upgrade"?


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

DENorcal said:


> Why is there so much resistance in installing AFCI's?


Some of us don't believe it's right that we're forced to use fraudulent, worthless products.


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## btharmy (Jan 17, 2009)

Any contractor who sells not only his time, but material as well, should be happy to mark up a $40 AFCI rather than a $4 standard breaker. It is good economics.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

DENorcal said:


> *Why is there so much resistance in installing AFCI's?* How much mark up is there on a $5 breaker vs. a $40 breaker? You guys are loosing material profits without having to do any additional work. Sell the freaking things! (The only contract clause you should have regarding AFCI's is 'any additional repairs to existing branch circuits due to code required AFCI breakers will be an additional charge'.)
> 
> Aren't you installing a new panel with enough space/capacity?



Because the vast majority of electrical fires are not from arc faults. The rest of the world uses a single $40 sub-main GFI breaker to provide the same protection for a dozen circuits. 

Personally I would install regular breakers and walk. Once you show them your price with AFCIs vs the handyman none AFCI price the Handyman will take the job.


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## Power21 (Jan 26, 2010)

480 your right thats the answer. i requested a call back from the Ahj on friday. Still no callback but he pob
had a money 4 day weekend.

also, in this jurisdiction of MD a heavy up is actually the terminology they use.


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## markbrady (Jun 2, 2014)

DENorcal said:


> Why is there so much resistance in installing AFCI's? How much mark up is there on a $5 breaker vs. a $40 breaker? You guys are loosing material profits without having to do any additional work. Sell the freaking things! (The only contract clause you should have regarding AFCI's is 'any additional repairs to existing branch circuits due to code required AFCI breakers will be an additional charge'.)
> 
> Aren't you installing a new panel with enough space/capacity?


Because customers think we are sticking it to them even if you explain the code rules to them and then there is the other things that some posters listed about them ie we are being forced to install fraudulaent worthless materials


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

btharmy said:


> Any contractor who sells not only his time, but material as well, should be happy to mark up a $40 AFCI rather than a $4 standard breaker. It is good economics.


The problem is, when the HO starts having nuisance tripping on those wonderful, money-making AFCI's, he's going to be mad at the contractor. Not the manufacturer, the AHJ, the preacher, the deacon or anyone else that might have been involved. He'll be mad a the contractor and he'll spread the word.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Selectric said:


> The way I understand the 2014 NEC, if you do not need to extend any "required" circuit six feet or more, adding AFCI protection is not required.


Might want to re-read. Extending a circuit calls for updating..


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## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

RIVETER said:


> Might want to re-read. Extending a circuit calls for updating..


If a device is added. If under 6 feet and no additional devices no AFCI required


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## Hack with the Best! (Sep 26, 2016)

*AFCIs on Heavy-Ups*

Washington DC requires AFCI circuit breakers for heavy-ups, but most of the inspectors do not enforce the rule. The company I work for recently failed a couple inspections for no AFCI circuit breakers. In speaking with a couple other contractors, they say the same thing.

None of the counties in Maryland where we do work (PG, Montgomery, Calvert) require AFCI circuit breakers for heavy-ups.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Thanks, I was waiting for that.


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