# ground crimp/barrel question



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

There was no NEC change that forces the use of crimps over wirenuts.

You can use any listed connector.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Run-EMT said:


> when I was in the union in 2003, we were using regular wire nuts for grounds. when did the code shift away from regular wire nuts, and was there a particular reason that they changed the code? I'm curious about the subject because I don't particularly like some of the alternatives my shop has been using.


I agree with Bob. There has been no change regarding this. 

Who told you there was? You can go back to them and explain so others don't get the wrong information as well.

I crimp outside the box and leave the tail(s) longer. Then I fold the crimp to the back of the box so the tail is the same length as the other wires.


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## itsunclebill (Jan 16, 2007)

:blink:I don't like crimps as a lot of the work I do involves removing them. Way too many people shove the crimps into the back of the box and cut off the extra ground wire instead of folding it into the box before crimping. The requirement is that ALL the ground wires are 6" long minimum. But, they're quick and cheap which seems to drive everything these days. 

I typically use a green wire nut if I need one or two tails for switches or receptacles and a 6 or 8 spot push-in if I need more. I also usually wind up using push-in type connectors to reconnect the short stubs left when the grounds are cut short.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

I use crimp sleeves, but not because the code compells me to do so. I just like the space it saves in the box. I crimp them at the end of the bundle, outside the box, and fold it back in (except the tail to the device).


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

I had a boss who believed crimps were mandatory due to the word "permanent" in the code wording.

I don't use the crimps myself. To me, they're just another thing to buy and another tool to carry around, when I already have wirenuts. 

Don't put the crimp in the back, that's just stupid. If you have to take that loose, or someone else has to years down the road, then you have to cut the grounds very short, and we know what a pain that is.


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## mikeg_05 (Jan 1, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> I use crimp sleeves, but not because the code compells me to do so. I just like the space it saves in the box. I crimp them at the end of the bundle, outside the box, and fold it back in (except the tail to the device).


exactly what I do:thumbsup: Single gang box I fold them back in up and down, multi gang box I push them to one side, crimp, cut the tails off I dont need then fold them to the opposite side.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Run-EMT said:


> where do you guys place the crimp on your ground wires - at the back, closest to the box, or at the front, closer to the ends?


I place ground crimps in a garbage can.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Peter D said:


> I place ground crimps in a garbage can.


I think the correct term would be a "trash receptacle" :laughing:


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Speedy Petey said:


> I crimp outside the box and leave the tail(s) longer. Then I fold the crimp to the back of the box so the tail is the same length as the other wires.


Moi Aussie..:thumbsup:


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

MDShunk said:


> I use crimp sleeves, but not because the code compells me to do so. I just like the space it saves in the box. I crimp them at the end of the bundle, outside the box, and fold it back in (except the tail to the device).


Agreed, especially when there are a ton of wires in the box and/or a lot of devices. Cut them halfway, fold them back leaving the pigtails only for the devices. What drives me nuts is the ground wire is not insulated in romex. Always seems to be one just close enough to a device when you are finishing off the box to have it spark on you.


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## kbsparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Crimp sleeves and wire nuts are both listed "pressure type" connectors. The _Code_ makes no distinction between either one. :blink:


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> I use crimp sleeves, but not because the code compells me to do so. I just like the space it saves in the box. I crimp them at the end of the bundle, outside the box, and fold it back in (except the tail to the device).


Do they (crimp sleeves) still come with the rubber jacket you install over the barrel? And do you use them on EGC's, or just leave them bare? Curious?


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

John Valdes said:


> Do they (crimp sleeves) still come with the rubber jacket you install over the barrel? And do you use them on EGC's, or just leave them bare? Curious?


The rubber things are available seperately if you want to use the crimp sleeves on your hot wires. They don't come with the crimp sleeves. I only use crimps on the EGC's, so I obviously don't insulate the completed crimp. On the odd job where I do need to do insulated crimps on the hot wires (jobs for the railroad almost always have this requirement) I use the preinsulated crimp sleeves that look more like a white nylon wirenut.


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## KayJay (Jan 20, 2008)

I would suggest to also be sure and use only the genuine copper Buchanan/Ideal crimp sleeves if there will be any amount of moisture present at all. 
I’ve used the T&B Holub ones before and they are just coated steel. Not only are they a lot harder to crimp and remove, but they also rust/corrode like a Mo’Fo’ when used in locations like inside WP boxes.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

KayJay said:


> I would suggest to also be sure and use only the genuine copper Buchanan/Ideal crimp sleeves if there will be any amount of moisture present at all.
> I’ve used the T&B Holub ones before and they are just coated steel. Not only are they a lot harder to crimp and remove, but they also rust/corrode like a Mo’Fo’ when used in locations like inside WP boxes.


Ideal makes crimp sleeves under their own brand, without the Buchanan brand name on them, and they are just yellow chromated steel. I only use the copper Buchanan crimp sleeves.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> Ideal makes crimp sleeves under their own brand, without the Buchanan brand name on them, and they are just yellow chromated steel. I only use the copper Buchanan crimp sleeves.


I use neither. But that's obvious by now.


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

Twist and cap. Why all the extra steps?
Stak-ons for stranded, The only crimps needed.

... and another thought... Why carry 'strippers' for the finish? Linesmans do it all. Travel light with universal tools.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

leland said:


> ... and another thought... Why carry 'strippers' for the finish? Linesmans do it all. Travel light with universal tools.


Because strippers are much lighter than linesmans. I'm trying to avoid carpal tunnel syndrome.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

itsunclebill said:


> :blink:I don't like crimps as a lot of the work I do involves removing them. ...........


If you take more than 10 seconds to remove a crimp, you're doing it wrong.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

480sparky said:


> If you take more than 10 seconds to remove a crimp, you're doing it wrong.


I agree. And for the amount of times you actually have to remove one I consider it a non-issue. 

Another nice thing about crimps is if you have to add a wire, just add another crimp.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

Speedy Petey said:


> I agree. And for the amount of times you actually have to remove one I consider it a non-issue.
> 
> Another nice thing about crimps is if you have to add a wire, just add another crimp.


yeah, the previous owner of my house thought the same thing 

I prefer wirenuts, and even a greenie now and then.

~matt


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Thomas and Betts Sta-kons pt series are all copper.


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## Lz_69 (Nov 1, 2007)

480sparky said:


> If you take more than 10 seconds to remove a crimp, you're doing it wrong.


I think the problem usually start when you have to remove those from wires that are already too short and then try and replace them with wire nuts.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Lz_69 said:


> I think the problem usually start when you have to remove those from wires that are already too short and then try and replace them with wire nuts.


Wires that are too short to begin with cannot be the fault of the crimp. The responsibility rests solely with the original installation.

I know of one old-timer electrician who would install devices during rough-in. He would pull the wires into the box, make them up and install the device, then pull on all the cables to get as mush slack as he could.

"Saves wires, and that saves money!" was his motto. The only way to remove a device after he was done is to take a hammer to it and bust it up. Heck, the only reason the devices were screwed to the box is to make lining 2-, 3-, and 4-gang boxes up for the cover plate. You could remove the 6-32 screws in the straps and they would not move.


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

conductors are required to come out of the box a minimum of 3" on boxes smaller then 8". 
if your following code you should not have a problem removing crimps.
On the record I've never been a fan of crimps myself


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

manchestersparky said:


> conductors are required to come out of the box a minimum of 3" on boxes smaller then 8".
> if your following code you should not have a problem removing crimps.
> On the record I've never been a fan of crimps myself


That rule was new to the '99 NEC. Older installations are a problem, IME.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

JohnJ0906 said:


> That rule was new to the '99 NEC. Older installations are a problem, IME.


 
Only the 8" dimension of 300-14 was added in '99. The 6-inch rule goes back to at least 1937, maybe further.


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## ralph (Apr 6, 2008)

I would rather use them than wirenuts. They aree a whole lot cheaper, and work just fine if installed to manufacterers recomendations. 
Then again if I didnt have to worry about costs, I wouldnt care what I used.


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## SideWorker (Aug 2, 2009)

I guess it's just a rumor around here that on residential work inspectors want to see either crimps or green wirenuts on all ground splices.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

SideWorker said:


> I guess it's just a rumor around here that on residential work inspectors want to see either crimps or green wirenuts on all ground splices.


I sure hope so. There's quite a few ways to make up your grounds in a compliant manner, and they don't really vary from how you'd make up any other wire connection.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

SideWorker said:


> I guess it's just a rumor around here that on residential work inspectors want to see either crimps or green wirenuts on all ground splices.


That's what has been required by a few AHJs in my area... greenies or pukeannons.


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

480sparky said:


> Only the 8" dimension of 300-14 was added in '99. The 6-inch rule goes back to at least 1937, maybe further.


The 3" out of the box rule was added in the '99. That's what I was referring to.

I was curious as to when the 6" rule was added. Judging by the installs I have seen from the 60's and 50's, I didn't think it went that far back.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

JohnJ0906 said:


> I was curious as to when the 6" rule was added. Judging by the installs I have seen from the 60's and 50's, I didn't think it went that far back.


When it was written in the code and when any given area had actual code enforcement (or had the code adopted as law) are two totally different things.


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> When it was written in the code and when any given area had actual code enforcement (or had the code adopted as law) are two totally different things.


No argument here.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

I really think that in the K&T days, you had to make up your connections outside the box, then pull the wire back out of the box and attach it to the knobs. That, to me, appears to be the only way to get the connections to fit in the box with those big ass devices they had at the time.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

JohnJ0906 said:


> The 3" out of the box rule was added in the '99. That's what I was referring to.
> 
> I was curious as to when the 6" rule was added. Judging by the installs I have seen from the 60's and 50's, I didn't think it went that far back.


I can trace the '6-inches of free conductor' back to 1937. But that year had a total renumbering and restructuring of the entire codebook, so if the requirement is present prior to that, I cannot find it. It may or may not be there. I'll keep looking, though.


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

Peter D said:


> Because strippers are much lighter than linesmans. I'm trying to avoid carpal tunnel syndrome.


Me too. Ever notice that sometimes when you use linemans, you put a small nick in the wire. Over time that will break. The strippers save my hands as well, especially when you are trimming out an entire house.


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## itsunclebill (Jan 16, 2007)

I realize that there are ways to get the da*n things off, especially if you can get the bundle out of the box. The issues have to do with the idiots that cut the wires short and crimp close inside the box. These are usually the same guys that leave well over a foot of the other wires in the box. The short ground wires are an issue with wire nuts a lot less often. 

Frankly, for grounds there isn't anything faster than push-ons. And, they work great for those short wires the crimp guys left. 

So far I haven't lost any jobs by figuring in push-ins or greenies instead of crimps. Don't like 'em, don't use 'em. I can't stop you other misguided souls so I won't try.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

itsunclebill said:


> I can't stop you other misguided souls so I won't try.


:laughing: Calm down, killer.


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## SideWorker (Aug 2, 2009)

itsunclebill said:


> Frankly, for grounds there isn't anything faster than push-ons.


Correction, for *any wiring* there isn't anything faster than push-ons. Grounds are not special and unique snowflakes.


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## itsunclebill (Jan 16, 2007)

SideWorker said:


> Correction, for *any wiring* there isn't anything faster than push-ons. Grounds are not special and unique snowflakes.


Yeah, but that'll get another one started that'll get my pulse up:whistling2:


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

SideWorker said:


> Correction, for *any wiring* there isn't anything faster than push-ons. Grounds are not special and unique snowflakes.


correction: any _*solid*_ wiring


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

wildleg said:


> correction: any _*solid*_ wiring


Not according to Wago.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

you use em for stranded. I'll pass


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

wildleg said:


> you use em for stranded. I'll pass


All I use 'em for is filling up the 'round file'.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

480sparky said:


> All I use 'em for is filling up the 'round file'.


Can you save them for me? I'll use 'em.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Peter D said:


> Can you save them for me? I'll use 'em.


Any that I get are installed in can lights, so one port will already have a fixture wire in it. And I ain't gonna bend over to pick them up after I cut them out.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Any that I get are installed in can lights, so one port will already have a fixture wire in it. And I ain't gonna bend over to pick them up after I cut them out.


Well, aren't you just a Gatorade bucket full of ice!


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Peter D said:


> Well, aren't you just a Gatorade bucket full of ice!


 
Sorry, but the call-480-names contest is over. :laughing:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Sorry, but the call-480-names contest is over. :laughing:


If you say so


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

Leave them long enough for me to cut the wires and replace them with a wirenut.

I do *tons* of rework and HATE it when they are so short that I have to nibble it off with my dull dikes.

If I did *new* resi construction, I would use them because they _are _faster than nuts.


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## kornbln (Apr 4, 2008)

I've found that the Ideal steel crimps are inferior to the Buchanan copper crimps. At least the way they were installed in my house. I've cut off a number of 410s using dikes and the grounds have a large indentation from the crimp point. On others, I've left the crimp on and wiggled the pigtail back and forth less than 10 times and it snapped right off. I've been working on replacing them all with copper crimps using the C24 tool.

Has anyone else noticed this or were they just installed poorly?


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