# Flat Rate Pricing for residential



## turbostroke

I have just recently gone out on my own and I would like to go to a flat rate system. I am just curious as to how you put it all together? Do you average you time doing tasks and estimate from there? Or do you use those national pricing guides?


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## richrock1605

I use a national guide format but i've modified my prices based on the area/economy. It works out very well for me.


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## ralph

richrock1605 said:


> I've been using a flat rate system of pricing to sell/upsell my services for about the last 4 years. It seems to work pretty well. Troubleshooting/Diagnostics calls start at about $150 and go up from there. Anybody else using flat rate pricing? If so, where are you located and what do you think about it? Success? I'd love to hear how other techs are doing out there.


Im in Savannah GA . I am very intersted in flat pricing , but I dont know that much about it


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## Skyline Electric

Hey Richrock, do you charge a fee to give estimates? Then waive the fee if they authorize the work? Seems that Flat Rate pricing methods always handle estimates that way.


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## JohnJ0906

Skyline Electric said:


> Hey Richrock, do you charge a fee to give estimates? Then waive the fee if they authorize the work? Seems that Flat Rate pricing methods always handle estimates that way.


We flat rate, but do give "free estimates". Obviously, the cost of this is built into the rates.


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## Skyline Electric

I'm a small shop, I drive out to jobs (residential) and give them written estimates on the spot. Like you guys, over the years I've gotten very good at pricing jobs, so essentially, I'm "flat rating" jobs now, no need for a fancy book.

So, going to a flat rate book system seems to only have 3 advantages:

1. Somebody else can price jobs, for instance the technician who will do the work.

2. The technician knows how much money he will make, so he has an incentive to work briskly.

3. The book looks "official", consumers don't think you're pulling numbers out of thin air.

Do I pretty much have this right?


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## oldman

Skyline Electric said:


> I'm a small shop, I drive out to jobs (residential) and give them written estimates on the spot. Like you guys, over the years I've gotten very good at pricing jobs, so essentially, I'm "flat rating" jobs now, no need for a fancy book.
> 
> So, going to a flat rate book system seems to only have 3 advantages:
> 
> 1. Somebody else can price jobs, for instance the technician who will do the work.
> 
> 2. The technician knows how much money he will make, so he has an incentive to work briskly.
> 
> 3. The book looks "official", consumers don't think you're pulling numbers out of thin air.
> 
> Do I pretty much have this right?


yepper


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## brian john

We use flat rate for certain testing jobs, we made it up as we went along. It seems for an expierenced man a homemade flat rate guide should be simple to arrive at. For a newbie I can see it as simplifying estimating.


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## bauler

I would like to go with flat rate pricing, but I just can't seem to see how it would work in the real world. Recently went out to to a small job which consisted of:

1. Add a RV outlet
2. Replace a outdoor GFI plug
3. Replace 4 stacked switches in a barn.

No biggy right. Well 2 days later got the above work done and got a better look at the rest of the mess which I could easly spend a week on just to fix the Disney Electrician's work.

How do you flat rate this? I seem to get these a lot. Handling it now by T&M.


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## Bkessler

My flat rate for those jobs that are fixing other jerks work. I take a educated guess at how long it will take to fix, usually material is not to much on this kind of work, and give an hourly rate including material. But I do not tell customer it's an hourly rate I just give them a price. generally this kind of crap that I do not like doing and is a pain in the ssa I would go 155 an hour. So if you have four hours of f ing around redoing others work, 620 inlcluding the material. I came up with this system from reading all posts on pricing in this forum. Thanks again all.


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## alcoelectrical

_Hi everyone, I used to do these forums long ago and it's nice to be back - I think. 
While most customers prefer a bottom-line price, I prefer to push the T&M by explaining that it isn't costing more than it should. But, I also suggest that if there happens to be more work involved due to the unknown element, at least your covered. This way, there's no rush to get the work done, just work at a regular pace and do a nice job with no call backs.

Now to the next job - where's the directions.
_


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## excellencee

I don't like T&M because I don't want to be given crap for trips to the bathroom, phone calls, drive time, trips to the supply house, material prices, etc. I had one PITA customer who kept track of time on the job and would only pay for that time, no travel or material runs. He took my bill to HD and compared prices before he mailed the check. I learned quick to quote totals or flat rate.


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## Bkessler

I wish what those customers thought was true: That every penny minus materials goes straight into our savings accounts. Or that we make 85 an hour profit, 60 hours a week with one person. The difference between those who do and those who don't understand the way it is is amazing. My customer right now is remodeling a house he just bought. Probably putting 90,000 into a 500G fixer upper. He owns his own underground utility installation company, he gave me a check before lunch on the first eight hour day for double what I asked. And tells me constantly to make sure I charge him for all the little changes he's making. I bid to (as always) to stay clean while I work and told him that at estimate, he has a laborer (legal) there all day to clean up after everybody, insists on us drinking his bottled water and gatorade and has mentioned my name to other contractors in at least three phone calls in two days while I was nearby. 
On a small addition/remodel I waiting to finish, the lady is such a bich, it's the exact opposite in every way. She want refund for for one recess can she deleted after I wired it despite me adding two outlets and a three way that were added later for free.


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## TOOL_5150

bauler said:


> I would like to go with flat rate pricing, but I just can't seem to see how it would work in the real world. Recently went out to to a small job which consisted of:
> 
> 1. Add a RV outlet
> 2. Replace a outdoor GFI plug
> 3. Replace 4 stacked switches in a barn.
> 
> No biggy right. Well 2 days later got the above work done and got a better look at the rest of the mess which I could easly spend a week on just to fix the Disney Electrician's work.
> 
> How do you flat rate this? I seem to get these a lot. Handling it now by T&M.




Since you are in california, I would say the above work would lead me to say between 500 and 600 dollars. I am assuming you mean add a new circuit to a panel and pull the wire for the RV outlet. If the wire was allready there for the RV outlet, I would say between 200 and 300.

I use a modified flat rate. Basically: I have a flat rate price, and I modify it upon seeing the job at hand.

~Matt


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## captkirk

I know this is an older question but I personally like the flat rate pricing for alomost all residential work. Most customers really would like to have an idea of what the work will cost. And this can have other advatages cause sometimes it might wind up being a little less than what they anticipated so thell throw in a little more stuff. And this can give you a better angle for upselling. 
I dont know, thats just my two cents.


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## bauler

Sorry its been a while since my last post. This house probably about 2500 sq ft, occupied, which means you have to dig around peoples stuff, go around the house through gates that woundn't close right, deal with 3 dogs, ect, ect. Barn in the back must be about 150 ft from the house. You get the idea.

Now I open up the main 200 a panel, what a rats nest, and of course it located over a nice rose bush, and only a few inches from a fireplace chase. You have to come at it at a angle. Wonder who approved this.

I just can't see how you can flat rate such a job. The sample flat rates I've seen look like someone just pulled the prices out of thin air. But like someone said, you wonder if the customer thinks you are charging them for phone calls, and other breaks. 

I'm still working it out.


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## ACB

I try to T&M whenever there are to many variables, but if the client insists on a written quote, I make sure I cover all contingencies that would make for extras. like running into a situation thats gonna cost an extra hour or 2, and including any changes, no refunds once its in, in fact it cost money to now remove or relocate it, and the quote is also a work order once its signed its the same as a contract. as for using a flat rate, myself I have found that when I do a walk through I can ball park the hours pretty close so I base it on the high end of my guess and it seems to work out fine for me, never lost money yet and am usually within 10% on jobs that are under 50 hours, anything over 50 hours I try to fine tune a little more on a quote, as there usually more guys competing for those.


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## bauler

Has anyone ever heard of software where you could make your own? I don't mean the comercial stuff for HVAC, plumbers and electricians. I mean some type of software you could make up a flat rate book for any type of service business. I know about using excel.


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## Grimlock

Old thread but still valid, especially since I am working on my flat rate as well.

I am 100% for developing a spreadsheet for creating your flat rate pricing. You can have formulas written in that calculate your mark up & allow you to develop multiple prices for the same project type, standard price, seniors discount, preferred pricing... You can also develop modifiers that apply when a project breaches the limits of your flat rate pricing.

You can set it up to allow you to make changes that affect all flat rate assemblies globally or just locally.


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## LAElectrician

bauler said:


> Has anyone ever heard of software where you could make your own? I don't mean the comercial stuff for HVAC, plumbers and electricians. I mean some type of software you could make up a flat rate book for any type of service business. I know about using excel.


I have developed a excel-based price book for electricians. My company is really doing well with it.


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## NolaTigaBait

LAElectrician said:


> I have developed a excel-based price book for electricians. My company is really doing well with it.


You giving that away for free too?:jester:


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## LAElectrician

NolaTigaBait said:


> You giving that away for free too?:jester:


 You know, that’s a really interesting question. If I were retired or sold my company or something like that, maybe I would just give the price book away. I haven’t been involved in any forums until recently on this one, but already I’m starting to become aware that some of the people reading what I write are my potential computers in LA.

Just five minutes ago I got a private massage from someone who seems to do the exact kind of work my company does, and he says he’s moving to LA soon and wants business advice. Hey, I want to help the guy, but do I want to create another business competitor? 

Got any suggestions on this issue?


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## NolaTigaBait

I think you are very gracious with your info. This is a cut throat business and it seems like nice guys finish last. I wouldn't post that, I was joking(though I would be interested in seeing the setup of it and not really numbers)


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## nolabama

LAElectrician said:


> You know, that’s a really interesting question. If I were retired or sold my company or something like that, maybe I would just give the price book away. I haven’t been involved in any forums until recently on this one, but already I’m starting to become aware that some of the people reading what I write are my potential computers in LA.
> 
> Just five minutes ago I got a private massage from someone who seems to do the exact kind of work my company does, and he says he’s moving to LA soon and wants business advice. Hey, I want to help the guy, but do I want to create another business competitor?
> 
> Got any suggestions on this issue?


career coach - be verrry pricey ie a little more than a consultant


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## user4818

LAElectrician said:


> You know, that’s a really interesting question. If I were retired or sold my company or something like that, maybe I would just give the price book away. I haven’t been involved in any forums until recently on this one, but already I’m starting to become aware that some of the people reading what I write are my potential computers in LA.
> 
> Just five minutes ago I got a private massage from someone who seems to do the exact kind of work my company does, and he says he’s moving to LA soon and wants business advice. Hey, I want to help the guy, but do I want to create another business competitor?
> 
> Got any suggestions on this issue?


L.A. is a massive city. I don't think I would be too concerned about it, unless they are moving right into your neighborhood.


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## LAElectrician

nolabama said:


> career coach - be verrry pricey ie a little more than a consultant


Great idea, nolabama! OK, that will be $500 for my review of your post.


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## robnj772

I made my own excel flat rate price book but there is no way in hell would I ever post it on here.

That is just a little too much info to be giving out.Anyone can access this site with out even being a member. Homeowners can even come on here and see everything. I think sometimes guys forget that sometimes


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## LAElectrician

robnj772 said:


> I made my own excel flat rate price book but there is no way in hell would I ever post it on here.
> 
> That is just a little too much info to be giving out.Anyone can access this site with out even being a member. Homeowners can even come on here and see everything. I think sometimes guys forget that sometimes


Yeah, I actually paid several hundred dollars buying several other electrical price books just so I could do research and make a better one for my own company. Then I and one of my employees spent several months developing the excel program, and then a LOT of time getting prices for all the material items, then a lot more time programing the book to be customized for different levels of material mark-up and global % increases of pricing for labor and material.

It's designed so that every one of hundreds of job tasks automatically changes when a new labor rate or material rate is entered in the master page. Etc., etc, etc. 

So, even forgetting the "helping my own competitors" issue, I just doesn't seem OK for me to be giving the entire price book away for free after all time and money my staff and I put into creating it in the first place. My 20 year old book about contracting, sure. But my price book, I don't think so...


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## RIVETER

*Flat rate*



richrock1605 said:


> I've been using a flat rate system of pricing to sell/upsell my services for about the last 4 years. It seems to work pretty well. Troubleshooting/Diagnostics calls start at about $150 and go up from there. Anybody else using flat rate pricing? If so, where are you located and what do you think about it? Success? I'd love to hear how other techs are doing out there.


What has your average gross receipts for these last four years been?


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## oldman

LAElectrician said:


> So, even forgetting the "helping my own competitors" issue, I just doesn't seem OK for me to be giving the entire price book away for free after all time and money my staff and I put into creating it in the first place. My 20 year old book about contracting, sure. But my price book, I don't think so...


so, you are saying that you are a selfish capitalist infidel?


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## Southeast Power

LAElectrician said:


> You know, that’s a really interesting question. If I were retired or sold my company or something like that, maybe I would just give the price book away. I haven’t been involved in any forums until recently on this one, but already I’m starting to become aware that some of the people reading what I write are my potential computers in LA.
> 
> Just five minutes ago I got a private massage from someone who seems to do the exact kind of work my company does, and he says he’s moving to LA soon and wants business advice. Hey, I want to help the guy, but do I want to create another business competitor?
> 
> Got any suggestions on this issue?


He is going to be a competitor anyway!
Get him on board!
I think that our trade needs something to standardize pricing.
I would think that if someone was moving into my area, and it was a big town like LA, I would share my pricing information with a competitor. The new contractor could quite possibly roll into LA using "poor south" prices and go broke while destroying the local market.


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## spdone

I just lumped several things in to catagories and gave each catagory a price, ranging from $75 to $600 noting exceptions at the bottom such as multiples and subject to change clause. I have 5 catagories. If what you want does not fit... I bid. Sa far as giving out prices, they are gonna find out one way or another anyway if they really want to. I would approach the guy a little different and treat it more like an exchange of info. You dont want him to undercut. That does no good for anyone in the trade!


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## knowshorts

Even if you did manage to get someones pricebook, without the knowledge of how it was created, you can easily fail. Everyone has different costs of doing business. Everyone has a different percentage for profit. Even material mark-up is way across the board. In the last week, I have seen material mark-up between 10-50% on this board.



> I use a national guide format but i've modified my prices based on the area/economy. It works out very well for me.


Why wouldn't you modify it based on YOUR costs of doing business?



> I would like to go with flat rate pricing, but I just can't seem to see how it would work in the real world. Recently went out to to a small job which consisted of:
> 
> 1. Add a RV outlet
> 2. Replace a outdoor GFI plug
> 3. Replace 4 stacked switches in a barn.
> 
> No biggy right. Well 2 days later got the above work done and got a better look at the rest of the mess which I could easly spend a week on just to fix the Disney Electrician's work.
> 
> How do you flat rate this? I seem to get these a lot. *Handling it now by T&M*.


You do realize, T&M is illegal for residential pricing in CA. The customer needs to know exactly how much it is going to cost before work starts.


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## JohnJ0906

knowshorts said:


> You do realize, T&M is illegal for residential pricing in CA. The customer needs to know exactly how much it is going to cost before work starts.


From everything I've heard, CA makes it as difficult as they can for a business to operate.


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## knowshorts

JohnJ0906 said:


> From everything I've heard, CA makes it as difficult as they can for a business to operate.


As far as the CSLB is concerned, they are there to protect the customer. There were far to many cases where contractors tried to bill T&M to resi customers, and they were just shocked with the prices. 

For example, a plumber goes and replaces a water heater. Tells customer $125 an hour plus parts. Customer thinks in his head this will only be around $150. Plumber bills for 3 hours plus $60 in parts. Bill is actually $435. Big difference. 

Electrician goes and replaces a GFCI outlet. Tells customer $60 an hour plus parts. Customer thinks, $50. Contractor bills for 2 hours plus $35 for parts. $155 total. Big difference. 

That is why in order to legally do residential contracting, you must give a price up front. Not a guestimate, but a firm price. 

It can be a troubleshooting project. You need to tell the customer that you should be able to fix the problem in x amount of time for x amount of cost. When that money runs out, you then need to go back to the customer and explain that it's gonna take more.


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## JohnJ0906

I've worked for different companies, some did T&M, one flat rate. I admit that I prefer the flat rate. That way I can give that firm price up-front, and not deal with sticker shock. When I do T&M, I do give a general idea of the time involved, and approximate cost before I start.
One thing I hate about T&M is explaining/arguing with customers that don't feel that travel time is part of the time involved with a job. With flat rate, it is already included.


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## knowshorts

JohnJ0906 said:


> One thing I hate about T&M is explaining/arguing with customers that don't feel that travel time is part of the time involved with a job. With flat rate, it is already included.


Not just travel time, but material acquisition, inventory, invoicing, banking, collecting, etc.

That is why when I do a 30 minute service call, I charge a minimum of 2 hours. The customer doesn't know I am charging them for 2 hours, it's already factored in my price. You wouldn't believe how much time it actually takes to change out a back-stabbed 15 amp outlet.


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## brian john

Any information I have gathered over the years including forms are free for the asking, I would not publish them on an open forum but more than willing to email.

Good deeds reap rewards I have no problem helping others and if you screw me with my own information, shame on you as I gain my revenge.


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## spdone

knowshorts, You are the 3rd or 4th guy that has said basically the exact same thing: 2hr min! Man that seems like an insane amount of money for an outlet...and I understand the reasoning behind it. I am not bashing it, I just have to wonder if I am being a puss when it comes to pricing?!


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## robnj772

spdone said:


> knowshorts, You are the 3rd or 4th guy that has said basically the exact same thing: 2hr min! Man that seems like an insane amount of money for an outlet...and I understand the reasoning behind it. I am not bashing it, I just have to wonder if I am being a puss when it comes to pricing?!


If you think a 2 hr min is too much you are being a puss :laughing:

I won't break the plane of someones front door with tools in hand for anything less then my hourly rate times 2 even if all I did was reset a breaker


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## Mr. Sparkle

Yeah that 2hr minimum is set that way because whether you are resetting a breaker or spending 2hrs there you have to cover your costs, just because you are not in their house yet does not mean you are not working for them....what about that time you spent stocking your van...and so on...and so on....

I'll add this as well, I do some small service work for a commercial outfit that has been around for some time, last week I had to meet a couple of guys on a job and wait around to disconnect and reconnect some stuff while they swapped out some equipment that was about to disintigrate. We were all on site for less than 4 hours, I billed for 5 hours, his invoice to the customer was $5200.

It was not that involved, but they would have lost much more money if the issue was not addressed ASAP.


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## JohnJ0906

knowshorts said:


> Not just travel time, but material acquisition, inventory, invoicing, banking, collecting, etc.
> 
> .


That should already be built into the hourly rate to begin with.


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## spdone

Ok, so I'm a puss! But I have been charging $90 for me to show up and the first hour as a standard call out. If I don't have it fixed or see it being fixed after the first 30min we talk numbers. Reset a breaker or change a light bulb costs the customer $90. Swap out a GFI in a bathroom costs 90+parts=$100ish. A truly basic ceiling fan install $150 and so on... iget an average of 2.5 a day for a 5 day work week. Being small and new to the area, I figured I was doing good. Do these prices jive with yours at all? I am hoping you say yours is higher cuz I intend to follow suit! What would you say is your average # of 1 hr or less jobs in a week?


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## oldman

JohnJ0906 said:


> That should already be built into the hourly rate to begin with.


go ahead and figure them into your hourly rate....then quote your hourly rate to a residential customer...go ahead, I triple dog dare ya...


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## oldman

spdone said:


> Ok, so I'm a puss! But I have been charging $90 for me to show up and the first hour as a standard call out. If I don't have it fixed or see it being fixed after the first 30min we talk numbers. Reset a breaker or change a light bulb costs the customer $90. Swap out a GFI in a bathroom costs 90+parts=$100ish. A truly basic ceiling fan install $150 and so on... iget an average of 2.5 a day for a 5 day work week. Being small and new to the area, I figured I was doing good. Do these prices jive with yours at all? I am hoping you say yours is higher cuz I intend to follow suit! What would you say is your average # of 1 hr or less jobs in a week?



so you generate approximately $300/day gross?

if you are running pure resi service, you'd be lucky to get 4-5 billable hours a day (that's time on site)...what do you do for the other 3? imagine having employees who get paid for 8 hrs...


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## nolabama

brian john said:


> Any information I have gathered over the years including forms are free for the asking, I would not publish them on an open forum but more than willing to email.
> 
> Good deeds reap rewards I have no problem helping others and if you screw me with my own information, shame on you as I gain my revenge.



You might be the most "stand up" guy on this board. Thanks for the info. Unfortunately I do not do much ground loop EMF data center meggering.


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## JohnJ0906

oldman said:


> go ahead and figure them into your hourly rate....then quote your hourly rate to a residential customer...go ahead, I triple dog dare ya...


So you don't figure your overhead into your hourly rate?


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## oldman

JohnJ0906 said:


> So you don't figure your overhead into your hourly rate?


it's the wrong way to phrase the question....the reality is no, we don't figure all our OH into our T&M rate...we do figure it in for any 'flat-rate' or contract type work...

figuring in all our OH would put our T&M rate in the $150-$175/billable hour...this is commercial work and doesn't include a bunch of the OH that resi requires...

If we attempted to bill out $150-$175/hr, forget it...but we can easily bill 2 hrs at $85/ for 1 hour on site...we get our $170 for the hour, but the customer gets a more manageable hourly rate...

for residential, to quote Donnie Brasco, fugetaboutit....try quoting a resi T&M rate over $100/hr...for that matter, try quoting $90/hr...

not saying that it's never happened, but find me a resi service company, that does service as a primary business, and does it T&M at that rate.....and has more than 1-2 owner operated trucks...


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## JohnJ0906

Our rate is $105/hr. However, we are primarily construction. Only 3 trucks run service.

Just to clarify, I'm just one of the hired hands.

The only company I worked for that was primarily residential service was flat rate.


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## oldman

JohnJ0906 said:


> Our rate is $105/hr. However, we are primarily construction. Only 3 trucks run service.
> 
> Just to clarify, I'm just one of the hired hands.
> 
> The only company I worked for that was primarily residential service was flat rate.


how are they actually billing service? T&M at $105/hr? just time on site?
and what do they pay the service techs hourly, on average, including benefits?


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## JohnJ0906

oldman said:


> how are they actually billing service? T&M at $105/hr? just time on site?


 And travel


> and what do they pay the service techs hourly, on average, including benefits?


Low $20s, health, vacation, take-home truck


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## oldman

JohnJ0906 said:


> And travel
> 
> 
> Low $20s, health, vacation, take-home truck


more power to them...i know you are in Baltimore area, but I'm truly surprised that they can bill resi service at that rate...


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## JohnJ0906

Some of the jobs are quoted and/or bid. Service changes, additions, basements, etc.

I sometimes get lent to the service department when they are busy. The other day I replaced a post light, and that job had been quoted.


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## JohnJ0906

oldman said:


> more power to them...i know you are in Baltimore area, but I'm truly surprised that they can bill resi service at that rate...


They have 3 trucks busy, day in, day out. My previous company was flat rate, and they declared bankruptcy. Go figure.


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## oldman

JohnJ0906 said:


> They have 3 trucks busy, day in, day out. My previous company was flat rate, and they declared bankruptcy. Go figure.


understand john, i don't think the $105 is too much, or even necessarily profitable....i'm just a little surprised that they can get resi customer to agree to pay that rate on a T&M invoice...never mind travel time...

sounds like Baltimore may not be a bad place to set up shop


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## DipsyDoodleDandy

*Flat Rate*

Try this. When you go to the emergency room next time with severe pains. Ask the doctor for a flat rate to fix it. And that you would like 3 other bids as well. Watch his expression.


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## McCaa

DipsyDoodleDandy said:


> Try this. When you go to the emergency room next time with severe pains. Ask the doctor for a flat rate to fix it. And that you would like 3 other bids as well. Watch his expression.


The Emergency rooms here locally bill out flat rate.
ER ROOM - $1850 per day (whether you were there for 5 minutes or 24 hours its the same price)
Doctors & Nurses Services are a flat rate also.

Just dealt with this on my dad 2 months ago. He had to go to emergency. He was there for 2 hours and the bill was $3,600. He saw the Attending Doctor for 20 minutes ($1,000), the flat rate emergency room ($1,850), his nurse services ($600) and his medications were billed individually totaling ($250).


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## DipsyDoodleDandy

*Wow*

Wow, I didn't know that about emergency rooms. Well, we can just charge $500 for the day just like them. If we have a helper $200 day. Material at 500% markup. Would that fly? Basically, they are just overcharging to cover the indigents.


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## DipsyDoodleDandy

*Hillbillyville*



JohnJ0906 said:


> From everything I've heard, CA makes it as difficult as they can for a business to operate.


You've obviosly never been to Kentucky then? I'm thinking it's tougher??? It's not intuitive ?


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## Blunny

Flat rate is the best thing since sliced bread, battery drills, contraception & mobile phones! Down here in Australia we are generally very slow to change but a few of us have joined Nexstar (we are the 1st sparky's) & have learned the business model of flat rating. Nothing better. I am finding that most customers are happy to have a price up front with no hidden charges etc. It has let my business charge more, provide much better service and evryone is happier. Imagine actually getting paid to provide the best in service & not having to cut out the customer service so you can make a $. Lets face it, with the old T&M method we have to be so aware of time to make a decent dollar that we have to cut those little things to keep our margins.
Go flat rate & charge more, we are talented people that provide an essential service so lets get paid for it.


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## electricguy

Flat rate Rocks


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## ramsy

Blunny said:


> Flat rate is the best thing since sliced bread, battery drills, contraception & mobile phones! ..have joined Nexstar ..Nothing better.


Nexstar account executives are making a killing. 
See http://nexstarnetworksucks.blogspot.com/


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## ramsy

knowshorts said:


> You do realize, T&M is illegal for residential pricing in CA. The customer needs to know exactly how much it is going to cost before work starts.


I'm having trouble verifying this. Can someone please provide the relavant CA B&P code or CSLB publication.


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## DipsyDoodleDandy

*Nice find*



ramsy said:


> Nexstar account executives are making a killing.
> See http://nexstarnetworksucks.blogspot.com/


Good one Ramsey! :thumbup: Showboaters


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## oldman

One pissed off guy from 2 yrs ago with an anonymous blog? And that's good stuff? Hell, that guy might be a part of ESI for all you know.


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## Blunny

So what, a lot of Nexstar members are making a killing as well. 
Talented people need to be paid well.


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## ramsy

DipsyDoodleDandy said:


> Good one Ramsey! :thumbup: Showboaters


Oh Ya, I'm gona attend seminars & purchase "get rich quick" software?








All these leeches & bloodsuckers are killing me


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## bauler

OK, doesn't look like this type of software exists. Last year I bought a flat rate software for HVAC that was be discontinued, originally cost about $3k. I would have wanted my money back at full price. What a POS. You have to individually go through each material item to change it when your cost went up. It would take forever. I'm a little leery of the ready made packages that cost 2-3 grand.
Ok, so I'm stuck using excel. Do you start off making a spreadsheet listing each material item, with the time for that item. Then make up a spreadsheet with tasks that would use the material and time spreadsheet. I'm not an expert on excel, working on it. I just trying to get a handle on how to start.
I have all the material prices and time, just trying to figure out how to put it together.


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## electricguy

bauler said:


> OK, doesn't look like this type of software exists. Last year I bought a flat rate software for HVAC that was be discontinued, originally cost about $3k. I would have wanted my money back at full price. What a POS. You have to individually go through each material item to change it when your cost went up. It would take forever. I'm a little leery of the ready made packages that cost 2-3 grand.
> Ok, so I'm stuck using excel. Do you start off making a spreadsheet listing each material item, with the time for that item. Then make up a spreadsheet with tasks that would use the material and time spreadsheet. I'm not an expert on excel, working on it. I just trying to get a handle on how to start.
> I have all the material prices and time, just trying to figure out how to put it together.


I have been putting my flat rate together for over 3 years this is not an instant task to get instant results, tons of data entry with i dont always find the time to do.If you have a credit card www.*aptora*.com will take a down payment and help with time to make some payments just an idea.
i find there material pricing fairly accurate but i do not mark up my materials I go after the final cost per hour that i need to break even with a profit figured in and sorry to say it runs around 200/hr for service work.


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## electricguy

no idea why the color changed in my post lol .


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## electricguy

somewhere i also saw advertised on ebay a flat rate system for HVAC work the guy siad he owned the rights to it and when i asked about converting it to Electrical he said it would be a big job of data entry to accomplish that. as it was designed for HVAC but it could be done. t least he was honest


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## LAElectrician

Quote:
Originally Posted by *knowshorts*  
_You do realize, T&M is illegal for residential pricing in CA. The customer needs to know exactly how much it is going to cost before work starts_




ramsy said:


> I'm having trouble verifying this. Can someone please provide the relavant CA B&P code or CSLB publication.


T&M is legal in California. Since it's not illegal, it's going to be hard for knowshorts to find a reference...


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## bauler

Thats the one. Its sucks. Its not worth .02. If they would have written so you could mearge a spreadsheet price list into it that might work, but the way it is programed you have to individually remove the HVAC stuff and then individually put your electrical stuff in there. It would be faster to do it by hand.

Are you happy with the Aptora program. How do you update. You should be able to globally update your prices. Thanks, I look into it.


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## knowshorts

LAElectrician said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *knowshorts*
> _You do realize, T&M is illegal for residential pricing in CA. The customer needs to know exactly how much it is going to cost before work starts_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> T&M is legal in California. Since it's not illegal, it's going to be hard for knowshorts to find a reference...


I am just going by what my attorney told me a few years back. I was told you must give as firm price to a residential client. I guess T&M with a not to exceed would be fine, just not an open T&M.

Plus this works out better for ME anyways. I do not like to disclose what I charge per hour. I also don't have to defend my material mark-up and my profit percentage.


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## ramsy

knowshorts said:


> I am just going by what my attorney told me a few years back.


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## bauler

I get that idea too here in California. I don't know if its illegal, but I know when you look at the CA contractors law book you get the impression that its all based on a fixed agreed upon price. Image you are in a small claims court room explaining yourself to a judge. Most of the T & M work I have done is small, and I figure I could eat it. I also think its looks more profressional. Its one of the reasons next year I want to go strickley with flat rate.

For reference look at the California Contractors License Law & Reference Book.


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## bauler

Has anyone heard or used Flat Rate Pro from Key Profit Solutions? Looks interesting, cost $500 for the software, $75.00 for a pdf file. I'm still leaning toward Aptora. Here's Key's website:

http://www.kps-network.com/


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## RIVETER

*flat rate*



richrock1605 said:


> I've been using a flat rate system of pricing to sell/upsell my services for about the last 4 years. It seems to work pretty well. Troubleshooting/Diagnostics calls start at about $150 and go up from there. Anybody else using flat rate pricing? If so, where are you located and what do you think about it? Success? I'd love to hear how other techs are doing out there.


I'm not in that business anymore but that amount sounds good...Am I correct in assuming that you are giving them at least one hour?


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## RIVETER

DipsyDoodleDandy said:


> Try this. When you go to the emergency room next time with severe pains. Ask the doctor for a flat rate to fix it. And that you would like 3 other bids as well. Watch his expression.


That's because they stick together.


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## rwagner

*Finally! A Flat Rate Pricing Guide for smaller contractors*

Here is a flat rate pricing guide for only $49.95!

The next one I have seen that is priced this low is at $199.99 and it doesn't do as much. This one is great for T&M pricing AND flat rate!

http://easywayguide.ning.com/


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## NolaTigaBait

rwagner said:


> Here is a flat rate pricing guide for only $49.95!
> 
> The next one I have seen that is priced this low is at $199.99 and it doesn't do as much. This one is great for T&M pricing AND flat rate!
> 
> http://easywayguide.ning.com/


You got a trial version?


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## rwagner

Sorry, no trials. the program uses Excel which is too easily copied, That's one reason it is so inexpensive. The Web site gives you some views of what each page looks like though.


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## electricguy

rwagner said:


> Here is a flat rate pricing guide for only $49.95!
> 
> The next one I have seen that is priced this low is at $199.99 and it doesn't do as much. This one is great for T&M pricing AND flat rate!
> 
> http://easywayguide.ning.com/


what a joke , with those prices listed for flat rate in the samples i would be on welfare


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## electricguy

I see MH flagged ya as a spammer


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## robnj772

electricguy said:


> what a joke , with those prices listed for flat rate in the samples i would be on welfare


I agree I was thinking the same thing :laughing:

My Flat rate guide is way better then that POS and I made mine myself. 

I am sure speedy will flag this spammer here as well.


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## NolaTigaBait

robnj772 said:


> I agree I was thinking the same thing :laughing:
> 
> My Flat rate guide is way better then that POS and I made mine myself.
> 
> I am sure speedy will flag this spammer here as well.


:laughing:. The numbers looked off, I was just curious about his setup. I'm not paying for that.


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## rwagner

The numbers are samples folks! You have to put your own rates in and they adjust themselves.


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## NolaTigaBait

rwagner said:


> The numbers are samples folks! You have to put your own rates in and they adjust themselves.


Child please.......


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## user4818

NolaTigaBait said:


> Child please.......


:sleep1:


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## TheBrushMan007

Your name WAGNER is the authors name of the guy who wrote the flat rate. How convienent.


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## GitRDoneElectric

*Flat*

Just *$999*

Restrictions Apply


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## robnj772

GitRDoneElectric said:


> Just *$999*
> 
> Restrictions Apply


 
Double :sleep1:

I would rather pay 49.99 for this clowns flate rate book then listen to your 999 service upgrade special you toothless inbreed troll :lol:


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## rwagner

Boy I will tell you, it looks like some need a lesson in professionalism with some of the comments and name calling I have scene. I have never met any middle school aged electricians before; at least that's the only crowd I heard comments of that caliber come from before.

For you who have made your own flat rate book, how many hours did it take? Multiply that by your hourly rate and you will see how much it really cost you.

I made a simple guide for contractors just starting out who don't have the capital to invest in a high priced systems. Something I would have gladly paid for myself if one existed. I unlike many in this industry don't mind helping others in order to help improve our industry.

Treat others with some respect and maybe they will share something that may benefit you once in a while.


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## LGLS

rwagner said:


> Boy I will tell you, it looks like some need a lesson in professionalism with some of the comments and name calling I have scene. I have never met any middle school aged electricians before; at least that's the only crowd I heard comments of that caliber come from before.
> 
> For you who have made your own flat rate book, how many hours did it take? Multiply that by your hourly rate and you will see how much it really cost you.


Not really. Some people have a lot of downtime and it's absolutely free.


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## rwagner

"Not really. Some people have a lot of downtime and it's absolutely free."

LandSparky, I hear what you say. I wish an inexpensive guide was available so I could have just purchased one and spent my time networking and drumming up new business instead. I try my best to make sure my time is just as valuable when I am slow as when I am busy and invest it in the areas that will give me the greatest return. Creating a price book myself was not the best use of my time but I needed one and couldn't afford the higher priced ones since I am just returning to the field after taking a 12 year sabbatical.


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## oldman

you caught flack because you spammed...you're original post made it appear that you found a system by someone else and were just passing along the great deal...

had you been honest and said you were selling a low-cost software, you wouldn't have caught as much flack...however, you would probably have been directed to this sites TOS...

either way, you spammed


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## electricguy

oldman said:


> you caught flack because you spammed...you're original post made it appear that you found a system by someone else and were just passing along the great deal...
> 
> had you been honest and said you were selling a low-cost software, you wouldn't have caught as much flack...however, you would probably have been directed to this sites TOS...
> 
> either way, you spammed


wow if we paid you 49.00 for each time you shared with us you would be a happy man  even at 5.00.


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## oldman

electricguy said:


> wow if we paid you 49.00 for each time you shared with us you would be a happy man  even at 5.00.


nah, i've never shared one of my own thoughts...


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## rwagner

I can see where someone could think I spammed but it wasn't my intention at all. I just wanted to make others aware of a simple and more reasonably priced option; something I felt might help them. Iv'e seen someone else mention one for $199.00 and I checked it out and it was of poor quality for the price.


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## electricguy

rwagner said:


> I can see where someone could think I spammed but it wasn't my intention at all. I just wanted to make others aware of a simple and more reasonably priced option; something I felt might help them. Iv'e seen someone else mention one for $199.00 and I checked it out and it was of poor quality for the price.


Dont worry others have had their balls busted a lot worse on this forum....
I know you spent a lot of time on your sheet.... but others do contribute info here and dont ask for monetary consideration. over the years i have seen many guys post there sheets on the forums yes they are out there but they never asked us for a dime.


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## robnj772

rwagner said:


> I can see where someone could think I spammed but it wasn't my intention at all. I just wanted to make others aware of a simple and more reasonably priced option; something I felt might help them. Iv'e seen someone else mention one for $199.00 and I checked it out and it was of poor quality for the price.


 
Not only did you spam,you also violated the rules of this website

*PLEASE READ: Site Rules and Instructions* 
*Forum Posting Rules: *
The following is a list of basic guidelines about what is and is not allowed while posting on ElectricianTalk.com. These rules are in addition to what is listed in our Terms Of Service , and Advertising Rules. Please read through all of these sections before using our site and contact us if you have questions..

Users shall treat each other with respect at all times on ElectricianTalk.com. Name calling, personal attacks, or other inappropriate behavior will not be allowed and may cause your account to be banned.
*As stated in our **Advertising Rules**, you may not post advertisements on our site unless your a local contracting professional displaying your business info. Members who try to sell products and/or services to contracting professionals will have their accounts revoked.*
No pornographic material or links to pornographic material may be posted on this site.
Profanity shall be kept to a minimum.
You may only post material and content that you own. Posting copyrighted material, trademarks, and other violations of the DMCA is prohibited..
These rules may be altered at anytime without notice so please check this page often. Thanks. 



So I am sure your account will be closed when the moderators get to it.

I have seen the $199 flate rate guide and yours is much worse then that POS FWIW


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## Magnettica

Fa Fa Fo Hi!


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## rwagner

robnj772 

No denial here and if they close my account for a simple mistake so be it; I will sleep just fine.

How about YOU read the first section of what you pasted?

*Users shall treat each other with respect at all times on ElectricianTalk.com. Name calling, personal attacks, or other inappropriate behavior will not be allowed and may cause your account to be banned.*

FWIW, I purchased the $199.00 thinking it was pretty decent but I was wrong, way wrong and if you did the same, and actually knew what you were commenting about you might not be so quick to judge mine or his!


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## Magnettica

rwagner said:


> robnj772
> 
> No denial here and if they close my account for a simple mistake so be it; I will sleep just fine.
> 
> How about YOU read the first section of what you pasted?
> 
> *Users shall treat each other with respect at all times on ElectricianTalk.com. Name calling, personal attacks, or other inappropriate behavior will not be allowed and may cause your account to be banned.*
> 
> FWIW, I purchased the $199.00 thinking it was pretty decent but I was wrong, way wrong and if you did the same, and actually knew what you were commenting about you might not be so quick to judge mine or his!


Dude, are you a professional electrician? 

Yes or no?


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## robnj772

But your not a user,your a spammer so you don't count :laughing:

I didn't purchase it ,t was shared with me.

It sucked,the one you are selling sucks,you both suck,spam sucks

Suck it up ,admit you just trying to peddle your ****.

Purchase ad space on this website like everyone else who wants to sell stuff. The flate rate guide you are bashing was advertised on here. Maybe that guy could have sold it for less but HE PAID FOR HIS ADVERTISING!!!!!!!!!!!


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## rwagner

Magnettica Dude, I received my first license in 1983 and have been around the block a bit and YES I am a professional Contractor and..... I don't mind sharing my site with you www.eesofnc.com to prove it.

And robnj I was referring to you being the user that needs to read and adhere to the rules as well and after that last comment of yours, maybe you need to read it twice AND get a dictionary to learn what the word respect means.

BTW, I didn't see his post in an ad, I saw it in a comment somewhere similar to mine.


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## robnj772

rwagner said:


> Magnettica Dude, I received my first license in 1983 and have been around the block a bit and YES I am a professional Contractor and..... I don't mind sharing my site with you www.eesofnc.com to prove it.
> 
> And robnj I was referring to you being the user that needs to read and adhere to the rules as well and after that last comment of yours, maybe you need to read it twice AND get a dictionary to learn what the word respect means.
> 
> BTW, I didn't see his post in an ad, I saw it in a comment somewhere similar to mine.


Respect must be earned

so






:sleep1:


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## Mike Guile

*Website*

I looked at his website. He looks very legit, honest, etc... Plus he actually put up his real website and name. That's pretty bold for the internet. I think someone needs to say they are sorry. 

rwagner, if you waited a little bit then through the ad in, then it would of been ok. People on here need to see you a bit first. 

I like your website. If I'm down in your area (which I visit often) I may look you up.

Mike


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## rwagner

Magnettica I grew in Clark and have some relatives living in Rahway not far from the hospital. I got my first Electrical license in NJ. What's your companies name?


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## rwagner

Thanks Mike and yes if you do get down this way look me up. It doesn't take much anymore for people to figure out who you are and where you live. Plus I have found that transparency and honesty pays far better then deception and a person's character is their greatest asset or enemy depending on what they do with it.


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## rwagner

robnj772 said:


> Respect must be earned
> 
> so
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :sleep1:


I feel differently robnj, Just because a person goes around pushing peoples buttons with the way they talk and act, it doesn't mean I have to get on their elevator. 

I will do my best to always show everyone respect and If I don't get it back, I will simply stop associating with them, not become like them.

I have intentionally done nothing to you personally to warrant your disrespect but I do understand I am the new guy here and territories must sometimes be marked by certain personalities.

How about showing us your website so we can get to know more about you than what you present in your comments?


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## NolaTigaBait

Don't mess with Rob, he's in tight with the "situation" watch your back dude!


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## rwagner

NolaTigaBait said:


> Don't mess with Rob, he's in tight with the "situation" watch your back dude!


Iv'e no beef with Rob, Just different personalities that's all.

Hows things in New Orleans? I spoke at a conference at the Sheraton downtown last spring. Did many contractors come back or has it been pretty wide open?


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## Mike Guile

*Classes*

Seriously, I think there are several folks on here that need maybe to take a class of this sort http://www.angermanagementseminar.com/

If it makes you mad me saying that, then you definately need the class. 

What was that old song Bobby Farrin?


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## robnj772

NolaTigaBait said:


> Don't mess with Rob, he's in tight with the "situation" watch your back dude!


 
The "situation" is from LGLS's neck of the woods.

I just gotta put up with stupid guidos in the summer time.

You know they built an addition onto the county jail anticipating and larger then normal NY guido summertime population due to that stupid show


----------



## NolaTigaBait

robnj772 said:


> The "situation" is from LGLS's neck of the woods.
> 
> I just gotta put up with stupid guidos in the summer time.
> 
> You know they built an addition onto the county jail anticipating and larger then normal NY guido summertime population due to that stupid show


:laughing:. I thought they were from the shore....They just go there every summer and cause trouble I see.


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## Magnettica

rwagner said:


> Magnettica I grew in Clark and have some relatives living in Rahway not far from the hospital. I got my first Electrical license in NJ. What's your companies name?


Clark huh, small world. I grew up in Westfield, class of '88. 

Classic Electric, LLC. :thumbsup:


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## rwagner

Magnettica said:


> Clark huh, small world. I grew up in Westfield, class of '88.
> 
> Classic Electric, LLC. :thumbsup:


I dated a girl that lived in Westfield and still have some good friends there. Remember the List murders? That was Westfield wasn't it?

Went to Union County Tech for Electrical 75-76

I went through that area last year and was surprised to still see the Stewards Root Beer place on ST George still open and I had to stop and get a bag of rat Burgers at White Castle. They don't have them down here.

I checked out your companies website, It looks great and professional as well as the work you guys do in the photos. 
If any of my friends or relatives ask me about an electrician I will give them your firms name.

It is a small world indeed, thats why people need to be careful how they present themselves online because it never goes away.


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## Magnettica

The List murders (1973) happened before my parents could afford to live in Westfield, but yes they definitely happened there. Still a great town and I love getting called to work there. Maybe one day I can afford to live there again but not in this decade. 

I graduated from UCVTS in 2008 and got my license just last year. The Stewart's is on my way to the Depot but the White Castle got knocked down about 4-5 years ago in favor of the routes 1&9 expansion project. I practically live on ST George Ave going back and forth from job to job. 

You got it made down there in NC. I would like to retire to Sunset Beach one day.


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## TheBrushMan007

I have some products I want to sell. Can I sell them here for free??
Can I Speedy?


----------



## macmikeman

Message to Rwagner- Not only is a spreadsheet solution for a price book a cheap and crappy way to produce it, (hey go learn about Sql for crying out loud ok?) , but your website where you are attempting to sell it is equally crappy, and I don't usually knock anybody's efforts at trying to make a buck so that says alot about how cheezy it is......


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## Mike Guile

*website*

What is your website Mcmikeman? I would just like to compare yours and wagners. I thought his was nice. More targeted to men with the printed circuit boards though. I have happy baby's, familys, and that stuff on mine.


----------



## rwagner

macmikeman said:


> Message to Rwagner- Not only is a spreadsheet solution for a price book a cheap and crappy way to produce it, (hey go learn about Sql for crying out loud ok?) , but your website where you are attempting to sell it is equally crappy, and I don't usually knock anybody's efforts at trying to make a buck so that says alot about how cheezy it is......


macmileman,

1st you are correct, a spreadsheet is the cheap way to go. I wanted it cheep and easy for the beginner to use who may be just starting out and has little start up capital. (I guess you've never been there or struggled before?)

2nd the website that the program is on is also a free site to keep the costs down and has future potential to develop into something else. (My Contracting site is different.) You should really know something about business and sales before you write down your thoughts. It is not about how fantastic or expensive the site looks, it is about traffic and conversion rates. You may want to go for the bells and whistles, I will go for visitors and dollars.

3rd You say that you don't usually knock other people's efforts; well, that doesn't have any merit on the quality of the site or the product; but.... it does show everyone that while it many not be often, you DO indeed knock people for trying. (I am not knocking you, simply stating an observation. your probably a great electrician)

Heres something for you to ponder.. a small 14 page booklet sent out as what you would say is a cheezy PDF that is listed on an equally cheezy website and tells customers how to do a certain task. ( I am not going to share it here) It sells for $7.00. How many sell? Try 300,000 thus far. So... take out your calculator and do the math. Now when you see those numbers do you think I put a lot of weight in YOUR opinion?

Remember this when you are waiting for the phone to ring.

Because I am new to this website forum I must say; I have been involved in a lot of discussions on other professional forums but this one seems to have an abundance of people that are real quick to slam those they don't even know.

I have incorporated a number of features and systems into my businesses that can help bring a lot of income into yours, (even during a tough economy) that I am willing to share for free. Do you think I really want to share them with people that are so quick to judge?

Folks, you really should remember that the internet makes the world very small and you never know who you are going to come across and the influence they can have; positively or negatively on your life.


----------



## macmikeman

Mike Guile said:


> What is your website Mcmikeman? I would just like to compare yours and wagners. I thought his was nice. More targeted to men with the printed circuit boards though. I have happy baby's, familys, and that stuff on mine.


I'm not talking about his company website. I think that is an exceptional job. Very well done. No kidding around. I was referring to the spreadsheet sales site. And after a good nights sleep and waking up to a new day after a very aggravating one, I do regret the flaming to a certain degree since there are some out there who are too lazy to do their own price book spreadsheet on their own copy of Excel and so therefore a 50 dollar solution does in fact have some merit. So Mr Rwagner please accept my humble apology and I will give you my personal forgiveness for attempting to spam me something. Good luck with your endeavors.


----------



## rwagner

macmikeman said:


> So Mr Rwagner please accept my humble apology and I will give you my personal forgiveness for attempting to spam me something. Good luck with your endeavors.


No worries, I completely understand and thanks for forgiving my boneheaded spam post. :laughing:


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## electrictim510

I know it's an old topic but...

Sad to see such a nice topic get so badly derailed. Makes me want to start a whole new one to give the topic it's due respect. :thumbsup:


----------

