# Old Church flower lights



## Andy17 (May 12, 2014)

As the pictures show, the socket is directly fed with knob and tube. Which I believe is directly mounted to wood above it. I have a minimum of 8-10” of space above the lights in the center of the arches, then it increases the further down the arch you go. Any thoughts and suggestions would be helpful.


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## Kawicrash (Aug 21, 2018)

...


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

Low voltage lights? Maybe some sort of fiber optic?


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## PokeySmokey (Nov 14, 2017)

Have you looked into using LED lights. Check out link below. Search for: LED Retrofit Downlighting

Retrofit LED Downlights | LED Retrofit Lighting | Super Bright LEDs


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

Maybe something like this if the 4" one fits, driver can be 20'away and wires/plug can be extended from what is supplied.


4, 6 & 8-Inch LED Recessed Ceiling Lights


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## Andy17 (May 12, 2014)

I found a 2 1/4” LED light (similar to the wafer lights) that may work. There’s not a lot of room in the center of the flower. I told the customer, there’s a reason they stuck corks in the sockets and painted over them. Some of the lights work, some don’t. During troubleshooting the situation, it seems as though at some point someone tapped into the knob and tube to feed chandeliers in the center of each arch. The knob and tube they used was for the flower lights.


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

I saw some of those 2 " ones but wondered how much spread they would have. Looked more like spot than flood.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

If you refeed these something low voltage / class 2 you can wire it more like speakers than lights and it's compliant. If you account for voltage drop carefully you can do this with 12V power supplies and the wiring is very easy. You can get regular medium base RV bulbs that run on 12VDC.


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## J F Go (Mar 1, 2014)

I'll go out on a limb here and just say that certain types of wire, ie romex, is not allowed in a church. I can't remember which conductors are acceptable, as it's been a while since I did wiring in a church. There is a section in the code that is for places of assembly. (Or there use to be.)


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## Andy17 (May 12, 2014)

I’m liking the low voltage thoughts. The type of wire would be easier to work with. The lights are only to be ascetic, so the lighting out put does not need to be bright.


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## samgregger (Jan 23, 2013)

Maybe some of these - https://www.amazon.com/Leviton-905-One-Piece-Incandescent-Lampholder/dp/B003I5VVTI/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=bayonet+socket&qid=1607390969&refinements=p_85:2470955011&rnid=2470954011&rps=1&sr=8-3

And some of these - https://www.amazon.com/Contact-Wate...CZM6155GDGF&psc=1&refRID=2E3590KDSCZM6155GDGF

And some of this - https://www.amazon.com/Cable-Matter...ords=14+awg+2+conductor&qid=1607391089&sr=8-9

And one of these - https://www.amazon.com/eTopxizu-Uni...ywords=12v+power+supply&qid=1607391215&sr=8-8


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

J F Go said:


> I'll go out on a limb here and just say that certain types of wire, ie romex, is not allowed in a church. I can't remember which conductors are acceptable, as it's been a while since I did wiring in a church. There is a section in the code that is for places of assembly. (Or there use to be.)


If the building isn't required to be of fire rated construction, then article 520 allows NM, so I think you're usually OK in older buildings like this. The article 520 rules don't apply to audio, communications, class 2 and 3, and fire alarm.


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## MotoGP1199 (Aug 11, 2014)

I agree about the low voltage option. I would probably go with the small E12 base and some 12v DC candelabra bulbs.












https://smile.amazon.com/Leviton-10028-Candelabra-Incandescent-Lampholder/dp/B000HJ96B8/ref=sr_1_25?dchild=1&keywords=e12+socket&qid=1607403803&sr=8-25


1.42" diameter (32mm)












https://smile.amazon.com/Voltage-Candelabra-Tubular-Equivalent-Battery/dp/B08GWY3N9H/ref=sr_1_5?dchild=1&keywords=12v+light+bulb+e12&qid=1607403995&sr=8-5



or











https://smile.amazon.com/OPALRAY-Candelabra-Dimmable-Incandescent-Replacement/dp/B07JQBRSRM/ref=sr_1_10?dchild=1&keywords=12v+light+bulb+e12&qid=1607404070&sr=8-10


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

When you pick out a power supply, I'd definitely look for something UL listed and class 2.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

I'd also do everything I could to modify the existing bases as little as possible. Things of this age, especially if they were baked by the old lights for years, things tend to fall apart when you try to disassemble and reassemble them. 

I'd be a bit hesitant to use LED lights here. You might want to dim these and I have no idea how the 12V LED bulbs work, whether they dim easily or not. I know that incandescent 12VDC bulbs are simple to dim. 

It would be nice if you could get each arch of 22 bulbs on a single power supply and dimmer. That would mean 4 watts per bulb and a lot of very inexpensive night light bulbs are 4 watts and have a candelabra base. Rather than dink around with modifying those old fixtures I'd use the candelabra to medium base adapters. (E19 to E26 maybe? Very easy to find.) I would paint a little of the silicone anti-seize they make for bulbs on them too. 

You're going to want #12 wire. If you want to really dig on the antique vibrations in that old church, you could use some wiring methods that are historically correct for the building.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

The cable you use should be CL2 rated or better. (Article 725 gives you a lot of lattitude but not a total free for all.)


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## PokeySmokey (Nov 14, 2017)

splatz said:


> I'd also do everything I could to modify the existing bases as little as possible. Things of this age, especially if they were baked by the old lights for years, things tend to fall apart when you try to disassemble and reassemble them.
> 
> I'd be a bit hesitant to use LED lights here. You might want to dim these and I have no idea how the 12V LED bulbs work, whether they dim easily or not. I know that incandescent 12VDC bulbs are simple to dim.
> 
> ...


There are many types of LED retrofit kits available that are dimmable in line voltage as well as 12 volt. They come in various sizes. Check the specs for diameter and height.

Here is some models that may fit depending upon inside diameter flower opening:

Has prewired junction box.
*6” LED Recessed Downlight - Remote Junction Box - Selectable Color Temperature - 75 Watt Equivalent - Dimmable - 900 Lumens*
Part Number: DLS6D-SWA12-120V

No junction box. Dimmable on 120 volts.
*6" Commercial LED Downlight - 18 Watt Recessed Retrofit/New Construction Light - 1,600 Lumens - 100 Watt Equivalent*
Part Number: CDL6D-xK18


You may want to have the church board check their insurance policy. Many insurance companies are voiding policies for buildings with knob and tube wiring.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

PokeySmokey said:


> You may want to have the church board check their insurance policy. Many insurance companies are voiding policies for buildings with knob and tube wiring.


Oh yes by all means that would be huge favor for your customer. Even better maybe just snoop out who their insurance carrier is and let them know they might want to cancel your customer's insurance.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

PokeySmokey said:


> There are many types of LED retrofit kits available that are dimmable in line voltage as well as 12 volt. They come in various sizes. Check the specs for diameter and height.
> 
> Here is some models that may fit depending upon inside diameter flower opening:


I might be guessing wrong from the photos but I think the openings are just slightly bigger than the lampholders, the lampholders are the type common in old lights. 










They might say they are dimmable but I have had enough LED lights make me chase my tail that I'd think twice. Even if they are dimmable they may not work with simple voltage, which can be very handy. There may be flicker, they may never go all the way dark, etc. The energy savings may be minimal if these lights are on half a day on Sundays. 

I would much rather preserve the old look of these, either with incandescent bulbs, or the LED filament-look type bulbs.


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## PokeySmokey (Nov 14, 2017)

In Ontario Canada insurance companies were send out letters to customers whose building were old enough to have knob and tube wiring informing their policies would be cancelled if the knob and tube wiring was not replaced by a certain date. The customers had to show proof their buildings no longer had any knob and tube wiring in use.


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## Andy17 (May 12, 2014)

I really appreciate all your input. I should be able to get a lift in the sanctuary next month. This will give me a chance to see how the old socket removes, and what of these ideas will work best. From what I found above the ceiling, I’m not giving them the option of repairing the knob and tube. It’s been tapped into and hacked up over the years. I told them that anything is possible, but the price tag is what needs taken into consideration before I proceed. Thanks again for all the ideas. I’m leaning towards a low voltage set up, but need verification that the new lighting control panel will be compatible. If I do proceed, I’ll post pics when it’s finished.


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## RICK BOYD (Mar 10, 2008)

Andy17 said:


> As the pictures show, the socket is directly fed with knob and tube. Which I believe is directly mounted to wood above it. I have a minimum of 8-10” of space above the lights in the center of the arches, then it increases the further down the arch you go. Any thoughts and suggestions would be helpful.


I like the look ,,,,,,and the idea of low volt led to reduce hazard of nob and tube wire


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## Quickservice (Apr 23, 2020)

460 Delta said:


> *Low voltage* lights? Maybe some sort of fiber optic?


Low voltage would preclude you from having to run MC.


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## dspiffy (Nov 25, 2013)

I've seen these in a lot of old churches and theatres, with the original wiring. Never seen them updated.


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## Andy17 (May 12, 2014)




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## Andy17 (May 12, 2014)

So I finally got all the flower lights rewired. I ended up using a low voltage LED puck light fed from a transformer. We mounted a transformer at the peak of each arch, then fished each light. Some of the fishing went well, some we had to crawl above and work together. All in all it took 60 total man hours to complete. The final result is well worth it. I promised I’d post a pic when we finished, thanks for all the input. It definitely helped steer me in the right direction.


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

Andy17 said:


> So I finally got all the flower lights rewired. I ended up using a low voltage LED puck light fed from a transformer. We mounted a transformer at the peak of each arch, then fished each light. Some of the fishing went well, some we had to crawl above and work together. All in all it took 60 total man hours to complete. The final result is well worth it. I promised I’d post a pic when we finished, thanks for all the input. It definitely helped steer me in the right direction.


Thank you for posting the follow up.

oh yea looks great
Cowboy


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

That looks really nice!


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## dspiffy (Nov 25, 2013)

That looks really amazing.


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## wiz1997 (Mar 30, 2021)

That should have received a bunch of " oohs and ahhs".
Nicely done.


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## MotoGP1199 (Aug 11, 2014)

Nice job, it looks great. Any close up pics of the.puck lights mounted in the flowers?


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## Andy17 (May 12, 2014)

I really appreciate all the compliments. My guys and I worked hard and in difficult to access areas to make this happen. Nothing you do 89 times goes off without a couple problems, but all in all it worked out and came out great. One obstacle we had to overcome was the puck light by itself had to much of a starburst glare. Rather surprising for only a 1.1 watt 2200k led light 30’ in the ceiling. But it wasn’t gonna work. So we cut out a 2.5” plastic “defuser” from art supplies I bought at Michael’s. I was concerned about potential heat from the light and the plastic defuser being in contact with it. But we tested one out for 3 days, 8 hrs a day and the plastic, nor the light had any warmth let alone heat issues. The defuser worked great cutting out the starburst affect. Once the rest of the lights are up and it doesn’t look like a construction site, I’ll post some final pics.


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