# Arc fault issues, why??



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Neutral-ground fault.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

Huggyd said:


> *What am I missing here?*


That Canadians were foolish enough to follow suit with their southern neighbors!

If you checked everything, and it tests good, did you try another CB?


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

Also... Metered out? How did you test the wiring and connections?

Like 480 said, most of the problems we have found have been with a poorly installed splice, anything from mixed up wiring to wires just touching when the receptacle was installed.


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## Huggyd (Aug 24, 2014)

I am going to remove the 5 receptacle and see if there is anything touching but I metered out N to G at the panel and also N to H and H to G, nothing shows on the meter. I removed the 1st receptacle that I have the power going to and metered there again nothing shows. 
I have them on a normal 15amp breaker now and have not had an issue. 
there are no wire nuts in this circuit I have the power going the one receptacle and then loops around room again for a total of 5 receptacles. 
What are my options here.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Huggyd said:


> I am going to remove the 5 receptacle and see if there is anything touching but I metered out N to G at the panel and also N to H and H to G, nothing shows on the meter. I removed the 1st receptacle that I have the power going to and metered there again nothing shows.
> I have them on a normal 15amp breaker now and have not had an issue.
> there are no wire nuts in this circuit I have the power going the one receptacle and then loops around room again for a total of 5 receptacles.
> What are my options here.


Megger the circuit.


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## CADPoint (Jul 5, 2007)

You have a dry wall screw between the neutral and the ground, divide and concuor.


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## Huggyd (Aug 24, 2014)

megger the circuit, I can leave all the receptacles on and just go from the panel back then with no problems?
I would think that a meter would pick up any issues no? 

thanks for all the replies people. I will continue the trouble shooting process tomorrow. 

why F'ing bother with arc fault breakers, stupid code.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

A continuity tester may not pick up on a high-resistance fault.

As long as there's NO LOADS on the circuit (lamps, radio, GFCIs, dimmers etc), you can megger to your heart's delight.


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## Huggyd (Aug 24, 2014)

CADPoint said:


> You have a dry wall screw between the neutral and the ground, divide and concuor.



hell I hope this is not the problem. 

This is possible as the drywall guys were a bunch of cowboys.


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## CADPoint (Jul 5, 2007)

The AFCI is functioning exactly as designed.

Think about it, it's the relationship that everything else has to a AFCI, it's not the AFCI fault.


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## zac (May 11, 2009)

CADPoint said:


> The AFCI is functioning exactly as designed.
> 
> Think about it, it's the relationship that everything else has to a AFCI, it's not the AFCI fault.


I agree. 
But it almost seems like emt runs and jacketed grounds would be only way to eliminate nuisance tripping -on top of sound splices. And this has no effect upon lighting issues concerning ballast etc. I'm all for safety but it has a price.

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk


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## CADPoint (Jul 5, 2007)

The argument can go just about anywhere, love them hate them... 

Whatever! 

It's now part of our work and just another minimal Code requirement
IMO where they apply.

I truly don't understand why all trades including ourselves bitch about our work
and then not be payed nor charge for it when in fact it's someone else's fault....

The OP asked for some insight I might have stated to much of a IMO...


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## 51360 (Jun 9, 2014)

Huggyd said:


> Basement bedroom total 5 receptacle on one arc fault breaker
> 14-2. Breaker turns on and hold all day no problems. Plug something in, no matter what the current draw (LED light, radio, etc..), and immediately trips. I started looking into the problem and metered out the wires, it all checks out fine, but still trips when you draw any current???
> I needed the power in the room so I said screw it, changed the arc fault breaker out to a regular 15amp breaker and I have had no issues but will need to change it back to arc fault breaker for finale inspection.
> 
> What am I missing here?


In the new 2015 CEC, which comes into effect Jan 1 here in Alberta, AFCI will become something we deal with on a regular basis, you need to get used to it.

I will tell you, like I have told others. Do the paperwork and make those responsible for AFCI problems accountable. When your rough in is done, do an insulation test on all the circuits affected by AFCI. Document those results, and get the owner, or whomever is responsible to pay for your heartaches down the road, sign it and understand it! :thumbsup:

Before you connect your devices, do another insulation test. When some runner screws up, no pun intended, your work, make them pay for you to fix it BEFORE your final.

Make this a standard legal document! No exceptions. 

It's unfortunate that in this new day and age, our trade spends more time covering our ass, then working it off. But, as Einstein said in many quotes, the most intelligent "adapt"! 

Borgi


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

Borgi is right on this. I've never understood why electricians in my area wait until the house is all boarded in to do a megger test. 

Do it while your walls are still open and prove there is nothing wrong with your work. Fix something if you do have an issue and document the hell out of it. Then when the sheetrock monkeys f up your work, you have a leg to stand on in arguing for them to pay for the repairs.

I always do (or have the guys do) another test after all my normal devices are installed but just before they do GFCI receptacles or smoke detectors.

Its easy insurance guys.....plus we know for certain that our work is correct and there is no guess work involved.


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

To the OP's original query......you need to megger the circuit now. If 480 is right (and most likely is) you have a high resistance fault that a DMM cant find. Only a megger will find that fault. Be thankful there are only 5 receptacles on it.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

I predict meggs popularity will soar with afci requirements .....the irony being most afci instruction state to remove them prior .....~CS~


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

chicken steve said:


> I predict meggs popularity will soar with afci requirements .....the irony being most afci instruction state to remove them prior .....~CS~


Ironic yeah, but the first megger test should be done long before the AFCI breaker/receptacle ever enters into the equation anyway.


I've always questioned the AHJ as to why I have to install a device to protect against problems I have proven do not exist by doing my megger test.:laughing:


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

Rollie73 said:


> Ironic yeah, but the first megger test should be done long before the AFCI breaker/receptacle ever enters into the equation anyway.
> 
> 
> I've always questioned the AHJ as to why I have to install a device to protect against problems I have proven do not exist by doing my megger test.:laughing:


In the quest for an idiot proof install, they always manage to find a better idiot :laughing:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

chicken steve said:


> I predict meggs popularity will soar with afci requirements .....the irony being most afci instruction state to remove them prior .....~CS~


That's because they're a load on the circuit. Set your megger to 500v and you'll fry 'em. Same for GFCI receps, electronic dimmers etc.


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## 51360 (Jun 9, 2014)

Huggyd said:


> Basement bedroom total 5 receptacle on one arc fault breaker
> 14-2. Breaker turns on and hold all day no problems. Plug something in, no matter what the current draw (LED light, radio, etc..), and immediately trips. I started looking into the problem and metered out the wires, it all checks out fine, but still trips when you draw any current???
> I needed the power in the room so I said screw it, changed the arc fault breaker out to a regular 15amp breaker and I have had no issues but will need to change it back to arc fault breaker for finale inspection.
> 
> *What am I missing here*?


Who manufactured the AFCI breaker? Not all are made equal. Manufacturers are making better quality AFCI breakers these days, but I found some of the earlier models of breakers, especially Federal Pioneer, to be junk! 

Take the breaker out, and test it in your shop, using a small sub with a simple circuit using one receptacle. Sometimes the breaker is just junk. Throw it away! :laughing:

Borgi


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## Huggyd (Aug 24, 2014)

well it came down to a bad arc breaker. I meggered the circuit and everything checked out, pulled out the receptacles and didn't see anything. So picked up a new breaker and no issues.

thanks for the feed back everyone.


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## pete87 (Oct 22, 2012)

480sparky said:


> That's because they're a load on the circuit. Set your megger to 500v and you'll fry 'em. Same for GFCI receps, electronic dimmers etc.





500 volts eh ... I like that ... fry the basted !

Bring back the Edison Fuse .




Pete


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

AFCIs are the greatest fraud in the history of our trade. A GFCI does the exact same thing if not better.


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