# I got nothing against non union but...



## daddymack (Jun 3, 2008)

I have a locked room I use for my office and to have our breaks etc. 

When I got in this morning, the door was kicked in because the non union guys could not wait to get in. theyre working overtime
Not sure about non union electricians but non unions of other crafts are a pain in the a$$. There is no use trying to coordinate with them. I can't count the times they had to tear out ceiling grid or studs because they could not wait for an answer. I mean we all want to make our boss money, that goes without saying but geez, use common sense. You can work with them to help them out and if you ask them to return the favor they look at you like you are crazy.

They ran that foreman off the job, we had a ton of copper in there and there was no rush for them to get in there. I just wonder if they do that crap to try and impress their boss?


----------



## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

What was the reason they needed in that room?


----------



## nap (Dec 26, 2007)

this was a room in the building you are working on, right?

If so, it is not your room. It is whomever owns the buildings room. As such, if you do not have any agreement with the owner or their rep, you have no right to lock the room. If you have such an agreement, then take it up with the owner/rep.

All the trades on my job are union so it is not a union/ non-union situation. If we have a designated room, we expect our rights be repected and all work in that room be scheduled. If we simply grabbed a room and called it ours, we really can't demand anybody respect our rights since we obviously have shown no respect for the owners rights to have his project finished.

The only exception to that is the electrical closets and gear rooms. As the electrical contractor on the job, there is a liability issue since we have performed all the work in those areas and if a person is injured due to our work, there is a liability issue. Due to that, we expect control and expect to be given that control.

Was the copper missing?


----------



## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

william1978 said:


> What was the reason they needed in that room?


That is my first question as well. 
Was it YOUR room, or everyone's room?


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

And you know what? Union members do the same and WHY? Because this is not a union VS open shop issue but a lack of respect on someone's part.


----------



## Minuteman (Dec 29, 2007)

This is not a "union/non-union" issue. This a "somebody did something wrong but I gonna blame it on them being different than me" issue.


----------



## sherman (Sep 29, 2008)

Idiots dont need a special card to identify them as different. The term Nonunion in itself is condescending and inflamatory to persons who are not in a union. How about just Electricians. Jerks have no union affilliation that I know of.


----------



## Minuteman (Dec 29, 2007)

Was on a new hospital job once, where the only nonunion skilled trades was the Sprinkler Fitters. One day the Sprinkler Fitters were not on site, and a fellow journeyman complained to the foreman, that the Sprinks had damaged his work the day before. I peeked in as the j'man showed the foreman a 1/2" EMT that was above grid, that was bent up out of the way of 4" sprinkler line.

The foreman went to the job trailer and picked up a port-a-band. He cut a foot section out of the sprinkler pipe and everyone had a good laugh. The EMT didn't have wire in it yet, and the section was replaced with 2 couplings.

A few days latter, they were back and were air pressure testing the pipe. You could hear this "ahhhhhhh" sound of the air coming out of the 4" pipe. Story goes that the 2 foreman had words, and the Spring foreman walked off mad. Next day, the GC Super called us all out on the floor.

Guess it was a real pain for the Sprinks to repipe the whole run. The EC paid to fix it. Needless to say, but the electric foreman kept a lower profile after that.


----------



## nick (Feb 14, 2008)

*Electricians Room Stay Out Rule One*

Well most large jobs everyone has a room as electricians we have our electrical rooms and the electrical room or rooms are locked to no one but us we have key and the construction manager has a key in the event like on a week end or who needs to get in emergency wise when were not there. But no one gets in unless they sign in or log out nothing gets damaged . You come in our electrical room we have a person with you all the time and on most jobs if were not in the room the construction manager watches for us. Its called safety no one works in our electrical room unless we know . And after power is turn on it takes a act of congress to just look at our main electrical room , we do work with the other trades but its called cordination with drawns overlayed we sit down with all trades have meetings and work out issues so we dont have problems like that and iam non union .best to ya


----------



## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

sherman said:


> Jerks have no union affilliation that I know of.


Quote of the week!!! :drink:


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

sherman said:


> The term Nonunion in itself is condescending and inflamatory to persons who are not in a union.


Not at all. I'm quite happy and content to be called a non-union electrician. It's no badge of dishonor or disgrace to be a "rat" contrary to what some might tell you here. I have no need for a union - I never have and I never will.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Minuteman said:


> This is not a "union/non-union" issue. This a "somebody did something wrong but I gonna blame it on them being different than me" issue.


It's more of a co-ordination (or rather, _lack_ of co-ordination) with other trades issue. Being union or non-union doesn't enter into it.


----------



## nap (Dec 26, 2007)

brian john said:


> And you know what? Union members do the same and WHY? Because this is not a union VS open shop issue but a lack of respect on someone's part.


I agree and apologize if my post inferred anything other. It has nothing to do with union/non-union.




> sherman
> The term Nonunion in itself is condescending and inflamatory to persons who are not in a union. How about just Electricians.


a bit touchy there sherman? Non-union is merely a factual statement. There is nothing condescending about it. If it is inflammatory, I would suggest that is a personal reaction as it is not intended to be such.

Would you prefer; union deficient? Maybe; union challenged? Give me an option you prefer. I have no problem trying to not offend you and if a simple terminology change would help, then help me out here.:thumbsup: There are times where union or non-union clarification is pertinent.


----------



## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

Minuteman said:


> The foreman went to the job trailer and picked up a port-a-band. He cut a foot section out of the sprinkler pipe and everyone had a good laugh. The EMT didn't have wire in it yet, and the section was replaced with 2 couplings.


Damn, that's really juvenile behavior for a foreman.


----------



## nick (Feb 14, 2008)

*old non union misconceptions*

Well i think times have changed its 2009 we have yes union and non union shops but the work force today has more than it had 100 years ago , we have rights at work most companys today of any size meaning not some small contractor or a company thats not able to have a benefit package. We have good treatment of the workers in our company we have a human resource office if we have a problem the worker gos to the office and problem gets fixed real fast . I think there is a old misconception of how non union workers today are treated ,or how we are educated as electricians .Times are different its a new world out there . If you make money our company will keep you working and pay you well if not your gone! But it takes lots of paper work before one gets let go down the road  and you have a chance to improve if you want .Iam proud of my non union company .Were still working and alot of others are out of work . Were one of largest electrical contractors in the good old usa .best to yas


----------



## Minuteman (Dec 29, 2007)

nap said:


> a bit touchy there sherman? Non-union is merely a factual statement. There is nothing condescending about it. If it is inflammatory, I would suggest that is a personal reaction as it is not intended to be such.
> 
> Would you prefer; union deficient? Maybe; union challenged? Give me an option you prefer. I have no problem trying to not offend you and if a simple terminology change would help, then help me out here.:thumbsup: There are times where union or non-union clarification is pertinent.


My friend Sherman was not hung up on terminology. He only saying that jerks are found both in organized and merit shops.


----------



## G & G Electric (Dec 13, 2008)

I was in the IBEW Local 72 for about 4 years. Not as a contractor, just a JIW. I've got a few things to say about this particular local. First off, it's a contractors union. All greivances fall on deaf ears. The BA will side with the contractor 99.9% of the time. One complaint was a contractor having us show up at the shop at 6 am, drive an hour to get to the jobsite, and we don't start to get paid until 7 am. The BA said "just be happy you've got a job". Same job - I was the foreman (the only JIW on site) and had 6 apprentices under me. We get no holiday pay, no vacation time, horrible insurance, and we have a no-strike clause. We have no strength. We have a first year and a second year insructor who bought their Journeyman exam answers from the Contractors School, and they are teaching apprentices how to be as dumb as they are. On our last agreement, the contractors came with pages and pages of things they wanted changed, and the brothers came with 4 items. Three of the four items got struck down, and what they ended up with was a $2 pay raise over the next two years. Oh, yeah, doubletime (any doubletime) was voted out, and we have to work 40 hours before overtime kicks in. Local 72 is an absolute joke, and an embarrasment to the IBEW. I could rant for hours on this, but I won't waste my time. I can already feel my blood boiling...


----------



## nap (Dec 26, 2007)

nick said:


> . I think there is a old misconception of how non union workers today are treated ,or how we are educated as electricians


It's not a misconception but an overly broad generalization. There are some great non-union shops and there are some really crap ones that abuse their people. It is what it is.



Minuteman said:


> My friend Sherman was not hung up on terminology. He only saying that jerks are found both in organized and merit shops.


I was attempting to be humorous. 



> =G & G Electric;53495] One complaint was a contractor having us show up at the shop at 6 am, drive an hour to get to the jobsite, and we don't start to get paid until 7 am. The BA said "just be happy you've got a job".


then you did not take the proper steps to have this remedied. It sounds like the BA was an idiot but since you believed him, what does that make of you?



> Same job - I was the foreman (the only JIW on site) and had 6 apprentices under me.


And the problem is? What was he overall ratio of JIW to apprentices?



> We get no holiday pay, no vacation time,


 that is typical



> horrible insurance


,then you, as the union, need to do something about that. 



> and we have a no-strike clause


Sorry to disagree with you on this one but this is one situation where I believe a no-strike clause is proper. If you strike, who do you injure? Your employers and since we have such a symbiotic relationship with our employers, who gets hurt in the end? Who wins? The union challenged companies that step in to take over the work.



> . We have no strength.


In some ways, I agree. 



> We have a first year and a second year insructor who bought their Journeyman exam answers from the Contractors School, and they are teaching apprentices how to be as dumb as they are


Then take that issue to the exec board and the BA. In my local, the apprentice coodinator is actually employed by the NECA members, not the union. It is a strange relationship and it has caused problems with us.



> On our last agreement, the contractors came with pages and pages of things they wanted changed, and the brothers came with 4 items. Three of the four items got struck down, and what they ended up with was a $2 pay raise over the next two years. Oh, yeah, doubletime (any doubletime) was voted out, and we have to work 40 hours before overtime kicks in.


then express your concerns with the union leaders. Actively work to remove them at the next election.



> Local 72 is an absolute joke, and an embarrasment to the IBEW


. You can put your card into retirement and work elsewhere. Is the grass greener somewhere else? A smart person would go and enjoy that grass.



> I could rant for hours on this, but I won't waste my time.


 It's only a waste if you simply rant and refuse to do anything about it.



> I can already feel my blood boiling.


Good. Then maybe you will allow that to push you to action rather than just venting frustration.


----------



## sherman (Sep 29, 2008)

nap said:


> I agree and apologize if my post inferred anything other. It has nothing to do with union/non-union.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 It is a factual statement if the world revolved around the unions. It doesnt and I am not the least bit touchy about it.
For example this year about 1000 applicants will apply for apprenticeship for 40 openings in my area. What are the other 960 people that werent selected to be called. 
The ones that didnt have an uncle or brother or father on the inside. Union deficient?? How about what they are just electricians.
Union electricians have a tremendous resource of information and training available to them . 
Not all of them take advantage of this priveledge. Dont take this the wrong way but annother example would be anyone who held a masters licence.
Would it be right to say well there is Master electricians and all the others are NON-masters. Which are you a master or a non-master? I hope you get my point no hard feelings over here.:thumbsup:


----------



## nap (Dec 26, 2007)

:whistling2:


sherman said:


> Dont take this the wrong way but annother example would be anyone who held a masters licence.
> Would it be right to say well there is Master electricians and all the others are NON-masters. Which are you a master or a non-master? I hope you get my point no hard feelings over here.:thumbsup:


I am a master whether I have the license or not:thumbsup:

no hard feelings here either. Like I said, it was an attempt at humor. I do understand your point.




> It is a factual statement if the world revolved around the unions


. Now hold on there. Since when _doesn't_ it revolve around the unions and the electricians are in the center of that universe so I guess that means with me being a union electrician, I AM the center of the universe:whistling2:


----------



## sherman (Sep 29, 2008)

nap said:


> :whistling2:
> 
> I am a master whether I have the license or not:thumbsup:
> 
> ...


I gotta get me some shades.


----------



## nap (Dec 26, 2007)

sherman said:


> I gotta get me some shades.


Well, at least you didn't say boots.


----------



## G & G Electric (Dec 13, 2008)

nap;53506Good. Then maybe you will allow that to push you to action rather than just venting frustration.[/quote said:


> I certainly did something about it, got blackballed for calling NECA, and now work open shop. WOOOHOOO LOCAL 72!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

G & G Electric said:


> I certainly did something about it, got blackballed for calling NECA, and now work open shop. WOOOHOOO LOCAL 72!!!!!!!!!!!!


I love it when a union man goes rat. :thumbup:


----------



## nap (Dec 26, 2007)

G & G Electric said:


> I certainly did something about it, got blackballed for calling NECA, and now work open shop. WOOOHOOO LOCAL 72!!!!!!!!!!!!


what would possess you to call NECA? Of the avenues available to you, that is not one of them.What did you expect NECA to do for you?

maybe I should change my suggestions to "take _appropriate_ action"


----------



## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

Frasbee said:


> Damn, that's really juvenile behavior for a foreman.


Reminds me of my early days,wiring houses,ahead of heating guys that cut your wires if they were in their way.


----------



## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

Peter D said:


> I love it when a union man goes rat. :thumbup:


 
Can't make anyone something that they aren't already.


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Peter D said:


> I love it when a union man goes rat. :thumbup:


AND RAT IS A DIGUSTING.


No wonder some open shop employees think so little of us, name calling NEVER works


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

randomkiller said:


> Can't make anyone something that they aren't already.


I've always wondered what union flavored Kool Aid tastes like. Is it cherry or orange flavored?


----------



## Minuteman (Dec 29, 2007)

Peter D said:


> I love it when a union man goes rat. :thumbup:


Yeah, I had my state journeyman license for years be for I organized in. I was called names. Rat, scab, step brother and such. My "A" ticket was just as yellow as theirs. A few said that I "bought" my ticket. 

After a few years, it didn't get any better. I was on a job at a college and we needed a crow bar to demo some bus duct that we were upgrading. Went out to my personal truck and got one. A "brother" went off on me, because a crow bar ain't on the tool list. The next day at the gang box at the end of the shift, there was a small cardboard box with a dead mouse in it and sayings wrote on it like, "Here lays Mike" and "RIP Rat".

When the car plant job started slowing down, the best brothers got to stay and get the five 10's and a 8, while the rest of us got sent out to other jobs. I was sent to a site 75 miles away. Nope, no drive time. A few weeks later, the 37 of us that were sent out got the lay off, because the car plant job closed and the best brothers needed work. There was 142 names sign book 1 that day before I got to the hall, and there was already over a hundred on the books.

These are just a few memories of LU 1141. I make more than scale now as a PM and I'm top dog at the shop. The one thing that I learned from the brothers, was how NOT to treat people.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Sit back and relax, folks. It's gonna get ugly now.


----------



## daddymack (Jun 3, 2008)

nap said:


> this was a room in the building you are working on, right?
> 
> If so, it is not your room. It is whomever owns the buildings room. As such, if you do not have any agreement with the owner or their rep, you have no right to lock the room. If you have such an agreement, then take it up with the owner/rep.
> 
> ...


 
This was designated our room to store our stuff safety meetings , lunch etc. We did not just plant our flag and claim it.


----------



## nap (Dec 26, 2007)

daddymack said:


> This was designated our room to store our stuff safety meetings , lunch etc. We did not just plant our flag and claim it.


designated by the construction management co. ? If so, then what did they say?

Did the management company have keys?

and; was the copper missing?

Ultimately, if the room was designated by the CM or owner, then I understand your ire but this is a chance to show your professionalism and show that company (not neccessarily all non-union companies) has no respect for others on a job and should not be considered for work by all in the future. If there were no actual losses, this is the time where planting a seed for future projects is the best remedy. Dang, you might even convince the CM that these guys cannot handle any extras on this job and they should be bid out. I've seen that done before.


----------



## sherman (Sep 29, 2008)

We were forbidden to discuss this on the other site like a bunch of little children. I feel so dirty talking this forbidden language.


----------



## sherman (Sep 29, 2008)

Peter D said:


> I love it when a union man goes rat. :thumbup:


He grows a tail and starts eating cheese. Some of the big contractors around me bought a big blowup cat to outdo the rat.


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

sherman said:


> We were forbidden to discuss this on the other site like a bunch of little children. I feel so dirty talking this forbidden language.


It's a two-way street Mr. Cow. If union men are going to call us "rats" and bash non-union trades as a way of life, they have to be willing to accept criticism for their ways as well.


----------



## sherman (Sep 29, 2008)

Peter D said:


> It's a two-way street Mr. Cow. If union men are going to call us "rats" and bash non-union trades as a way of life, they have to be willing to accept criticism for their ways as well.


Go back and read the post from the begining, I feel a lot of love in the room.


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

sherman said:


> Go back and read the post from the begining, I feel a lot of love in the room.


I have read it from the beginning. I'm just exercising my right to threadjack.


----------



## Minuteman (Dec 29, 2007)

I have been a member of 3 unions. The AFL/CIO when I worked at a grocery store in Michigan. Later, I was in the teacher's union as a school maintenance electrician. Later again, I joined the IBEW.

From my experience, unions have their place in society. Trade unions seem to shoot themselves in the foot. While they are loosing their market share and are doing less and less of the work, they tend to run a negative P.R. campaign. The organizers work hard trying to bring in new shops and new people, and the organized guys get treated like crap by the diehards.

I'm not saying all brothers are that way, but it only takes a few to give the whole local a bad name.


----------



## splitphase (Jan 8, 2009)

G & G Electric said:


> I was in the IBEW Local 72 for about 4 years. Not as a contractor, just a JIW. I've got a few things to say about this particular local. First off, it's a contractors union. All greivances fall on deaf ears. The BA will side with the contractor 99.9% of the time. One complaint was a contractor having us show up at the shop at 6 am, drive an hour to get to the jobsite, and we don't start to get paid until 7 am. The BA said "just be happy you've got a job". Same job - I was the foreman (the only JIW on site) and had 6 apprentices under me. We get no holiday pay, no vacation time, horrible insurance, and we have a no-strike clause. We have no strength. We have a first year and a second year insructor who bought their Journeyman exam answers from the Contractors School, and they are teaching apprentices how to be as dumb as they are. On our last agreement, the contractors came with pages and pages of things they wanted changed, and the brothers came with 4 items. Three of the four items got struck down, and what they ended up with was a $2 pay raise over the next two years. Oh, yeah, doubletime (any doubletime) was voted out, and we have to work 40 hours before overtime kicks in. Local 72 is an absolute joke, and an embarrasment to the IBEW. I could rant for hours on this, but I won't waste my time. I can already feel my blood boiling...


 
Are you sure you are in Texas, and not in Long Island ???? This sounds very familiar to me, except you mention nothing about the international just outright taking anything away from your local....!


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Locals are made up of MEMEBRS and these members vote in management. Organize an anti management election. Take control


----------



## BDB (Jul 9, 2008)

I have been following this thread and finally had to jump in.



Minuteman said:


> After a few years, it didn't get any better. I was on a job at a college and we needed a crow bar to demo some bus duct that we were upgrading. Went out to my personal truck and got one. A "brother" went off on me, because a crow bar ain't on the tool list. The next day at the gang box at the end of the shift, there was a small cardboard box with a dead mouse in it and sayings wrote on it like, "Here lays Mike" and "RIP Rat".


This is a very good example of what is wrong with the Union. If you can not use a tool that you own, that will make your job easier for YOU, just because it is not on the "tool list" and the "brothers" call you a rat for doing so, then that is a problem that the Union needs to address.



G & G Electric said:


> We have a first year and a second year insructor who bought their Journeyman exam answers from the Contractors School, and they are teaching apprentices how to be as dumb as they are.


Here is another big problem the Union has, it will hire anyone that breaths to teach school. There is no teaching, just do your work sheets and if you have a question I will try and find the answer, that is NOT teaching. I will say, not all JATC's are like this, some have teachers that really do know what they are doing, but the majority do not.



G & G Electric said:


> Oh, yeah, doubletime (any doubletime) was voted out, and we have to work 40 hours before overtime kicks in.


Well that is an interesting concept, you actually have to work 40 Hrs before you get OT:no:. Guess that means no more deciding to take a day or two off during the week but making damn sure you are there for the double time hours. Work 40 before getting OT sounds fair to me.:thumbsup:


----------



## nap (Dec 26, 2007)

> ]BDB;53918]I have been following this thread and finally had to jump in.


 



> This is a very good example of what is wrong with the Union. If you can not use a tool that you own, that will make your job easier for YOU, just because it is not on the "tool list" and the "brothers" call you a rat for doing so, then that is a problem that the Union needs to address.


there is a reason for this rule. This rule, along with all others, if not enforced becomes diluted and unenforcable. There is nothing to address as far as I can see. Maybe you like your contractor telling you you need to go out and by tools that HE wants you to use, I don't. Do you have hand tools? Good. How about a bender? I can actually live with that. How about ladders (6,6,10,12, and 14 foot)? Now, how about something like a rotary laser? In to data? How about a TDR? In to fiber? how about an OTDR. A fusion welder?

Where does it stop?

Without the rules, the boss will find somebody to buy those tools just to keep his job. BTW, up there I just listed enough tools to take all the take home pay for somebody that makes $20/hr and then some.

Granted, there are some tools I would like to but for myself but like I said, diluting the rule kills the rule.




> Here is another big problem the Union has, it will hire anyone that breaths to teach school. There is no teaching, just do your work sheets and if you have a question I will try and find the answer, that is NOT teaching. I will say, not all JATC's are like this, some have teachers that really do know what they are doing, but the majority do not.


Have you been to a union school? What you listed surely doesn't sound like mine. Work sheets? Sure and then spend hours going over them with lots of explanation. There is more teaching in my local training than in many of the college courses I have had.





> Well that is an interesting concept, you actually have to work 40 Hrs before you get OT:no:. Guess that means no more deciding to take a day or two off during the week but making damn sure you are there for the double time hours. Work 40 before getting OT sounds fair to me.:thumbsup:


Sure, so if your boss tells you to sit home from 7 until 1 everyday and then work a few hours, you're good with that at straight time? Ok, then he has you sit home Thurs but then come in Saturday (of course, it;s the middle of summer and you had plans with the family) but straight time is fine for you, right?

Ok, so you set home Thurs and Friday and guess what? He wants you to work Saturday and Sunday, for straight time, of course. Still good with that?

You still doing OK with everything?

Ok, so now, you don't get a coffee break (there is no law in Texas that requires a break). 

Then finally, he says we don't have time for a lunch break (and no, there is no law in Texas that requires a lunch break either).

So now, you are working weekends, odd hours (don't forget that time you had to come in a 3 in the morning for a couple days), no break, no lunch,

and just when you were feeling good about all this on straight time;

POW! Sorry guy, we have to cut the insurance out. Just too expensive.

Now you may say; it doesn't happen like that. The problem is; you are wrong. Each of those things happen at one time or another but of course, you are fine with all of it and happy as heck with just straight time pay.

You can keep your non-union job. I'll stick with my union job. Apparently we will both be happy because you are willing to get whipped for straight time and I am not. You will get your straight time and I will get my OT. That's what I love, there is a place for everybody in the world.


----------



## Minuteman (Dec 29, 2007)

nap said:


> there is a reason for this rule. This rule, along with all others, if not enforced becomes diluted and unenforcable. There is nothing to address as far as I can see. Maybe you like your contractor telling you you need to go out and by tools that HE wants you to use, I don't. Do you have hand tools? Good. How about a bender? I can actually live with that. How about ladders (6,6,10,12, and 14 foot)? Now, how about something like a rotary laser? In to data? How about a TDR? In to fiber? how about an OTDR. A fusion welder?
> 
> Where does it stop?
> 
> ...


Yeah, except the contract called it the tool minimum, which I had. (Except for a wooden measure, I'm also a rat 'cause I used a Klein tape measure and not a wooden one).

Anyway, it was never explained to me. Not till after the fact, and then the steward told me that it was because of that when it comes time for a lay off, the contractor might keep me for my crow bar and lay off someone else.

Funny thing though, the Foreman on the next job had a bunch of tools that were not on the list, he came in one day with a new Milwaukee drill and sawzall kit and was bragging about how little HE paid for it. Neither tool was on the list.


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

1. I buy what my men need but if they need a tool at a moments notice and they had one I would surely expect them to utilize it. To do other wise is stupidity beyond compare.

2. Union schools like open shop schools and public schools have good, bad, in different and average teachers.

3. Calling a worker names for using THE RIGHT TOOL FOR THE JOB, if in all else he does decent work is WRONG.

4. As for OT if the area can support it, then go for it. IN our area it was modified to compete in the market Anything over 8 a day is 1-1/2, anything over 60 hours a week is DT, Sunday and holidays is ST


----------



## BDB (Jul 9, 2008)

nap said:


> Have you been to a union school? What you listed surely doesn't sound like mine. Work sheets? Sure and then spend hours going over them with lots of explanation. There is more teaching in my local training than in many of the college courses I have had.


Well, yes I have, thank you very much, when I went it was a 4 year school, And I have been on the JATC committee, So I know a little about it And if you reread my post, I said NOT all were like this.





nap said:


> Sure, so if your boss tells you to sit home from 7 until 1 everyday and then work a few hours, you're good with that at straight time? Ok, then he has you sit home Thurs but then come in Saturday (of course, it;s the middle of summer and you had plans with the family) but straight time is fine for you, right?
> 
> Ok, so you set home Thurs and Friday and guess what? He wants you to work Saturday and Sunday, for straight time, of course. Still good with that?


Guess I should have clarified my stance, I was talking more in line with being on a job that is 6 -10's or 7-10's, not the "every once in awhile ot here and there. I see your point in your situation, hopefully you see mine too.





nap said:


> You can keep your non-union job. I'll stick with my union job. Apparently we will both be happy because you are willing to get whipped for straight time and I am not. You will get your straight time and I will get my OT. That's what I love, there is a place for everybody in the world.


This is where you are wrong, I am union, been a card holder for 28 years.:thumbup:


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

nap said:


> You can keep your non-union job.


I thought the union wanted to welcome as many members into the fold as possible? Isn't the ultimate goal of the IBEW to unionize as many "rat" shops as they possibly can?


----------



## Minuteman (Dec 29, 2007)

Peter D said:


> I thought the union wanted to welcome as many members into the fold as possible? Isn't the ultimate goal of the IBEW to unionize as many "rat" shops as they possibly can?


That's the irony. The international and the local want to organize, most of the brothers don't.


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

BDB said:


> Well, yes I have, thank you very much, when I went it was a 4 year school, And I have been on the JATC committee, So I know a little about it And if you reread my post, I said NOT all were like this.
> 
> 
> 
> This is where you are wrong, I am union, been a card holder for 28 years.:thumbup:


Nap some members are open minded and see all sides of a story.


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Minuteman said:


> That's the irony. The international and the local want to organize, most of the brothers don't.


This is something I will never understand about the IBEW. Their success (or failure) depends on membership numbers ($$$$.) Yet the union fails miserably to generate any good will towards non-union tradesmen, who are a huge potential source of new recruits. I guess if they want an elite, impenetrable club boys club, then that's what they want. 

And don't tell me about "brotherhood" if you come into the union with a non-union background. If you didn't do the 5 year union apprenticeship, you will always be a second class citizen.


----------



## spoon (Dec 9, 2008)

brian john said:


> *Locals are made up of MEMEBRS* and these members vote in management. Organize an anti management election. Take control


And of people you hire directly off the street. :icon_wink:


----------



## nap (Dec 26, 2007)

> =BDB;54021]Well, yes I have, thank you very much, when I went it was a 4 year school, And I have been on the JATC committee, So I know a little about it And if you reread my post, I said NOT all were like this.


I asked and then explained our locals school is not like this. I did not chastise. Sorry to hear your JATC has such problems. Want the loan of one of our instructors. He has a PhD in engineering and used to be a college prof. He is also a hell of an electrician. Not the typical instructor but we do tend to have a decent group.







> Guess I should have clarified my stance, I was talking more in line with being on a job that is 6 -10's or 7-10's, not the "every once in awhile ot here and there. I see your point in your situation, hopefully you see mine too.


Yes, I do but along with your type of situation, the guys that do that a generally not asked to work OT and they are way towards the top of the lay-off list, and rightfully so in my opinion. They may get away with it for awhoil but it is ususally a short lived win.







> This is where you are wrong, I am union, been a card holder for 28 years.:thumbup:


You just seem to be very hard on the union. I am either lucky or you are the opposite to have experienced our personal experiences.



brian john said:


> Nap some members are open minded and see all sides of a story.


I just saw the post as the same as a lot of the others that come from uninformed or ill informed non-union guys. I do see his point and thankfully, I have not had the experience of attending a school such as BDB has.


We cool????


----------



## nap (Dec 26, 2007)

Minuteman said:


> Anyway, it was never explained to me. Not till after the fact, and then the steward told me that it was because of that when it comes time for a lay off, the contractor might keep me for my crow bar and lay off someone else.
> .


For that, as a union member, I apologize. When a man is taken in, the rules should be explained quite thoroughly. Even when doing so, some things are mistunderstood or were not mentioned. If that was the case, you should have been explained as to what was what and let it go. Then, if it happened again, then we could send you to sleep with the fishes.:icon_wink:

I work with a lot of organized guys. Some great, some not so. I work with a lot of bro's that went through apprenticeship, some great, some not so.

I do not discriminate but try to judge each person on his or her own skills and attitiude.


----------



## nap (Dec 26, 2007)

Peter D said:


> I thought the union wanted to welcome as many members into the fold as possible? Isn't the ultimate goal of the IBEW to unionize as many "rat" shops as they possibly can?


that is the IO's intent. They seem to have this theory that they can unionize wverybody. Then the unions will have all the work. We all know it is not realistic.



Minuteman said:


> That's the irony. The international and the local want to organize, most of the brothers don't.


 I believe that is becuase when they organize too many folks, unemployment within the local often goes up (percentage wise). 



> Peter D;54156]And don't tell me about "brotherhood" if you come into the union with a non-union background. If you didn't do the 5 year union apprenticeship, you will always be a second class citizen.


with some of the guys, yes. Hopefully they are in a minority I can usually spot the guys that have not been through our apprenticeship though. I take pride in the level of education our local JATC provides. Not a lot of the non-union guys get the benefit of that level of training and it does show.



> =spoon;54182]And of people you hire directly off the street. :icon_wink:


Only in rare occasions, anymore at least. That would be book 4. They are termed "white ticket". Yes, they can hire guys off the streeet but only when there is nobody on books 1,2, and 3 to take the call. Plus, they HAVE to be the first to get layed off as well.


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

spoon said:


> And of people you hire directly off the street. :icon_wink:


 
So they are less worthy than other members? Even when they are excellent electricians?


----------



## spoon (Dec 9, 2008)

brian john said:


> *So they are less worthy than other members?* Even when their are excellent electricians?


Less worthy, you got it. :thumbsup:

Here's a quick example of what I'm talkin' about. I consider myself a good electrician. But that's beside the point here. Let's say at your local, there's one guy out of work, who's paid his dues, and is now sittin' at the hall, waiting for a call. Then I come strollin' into your office, fresh off the street, looking for a job. I _say_ I'm good, but the other guy has _paid his dues_. 

Who do you hire? Worthy is a bad term to use, but in this case I'd have to say the guy who paid his dues is more worthy than the guy fresh off the street. It's a brotherhood, not an everyoneoffthestreethood. Some people take it more seriously I guess.


----------



## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

spoon said:


> Let's say at your local, there's one guy out of work, who's paid his dues, and is now sittin' at the hall, waiting for a call. Then I come strollin' into your office, fresh off the street, looking for a job. I _say_ I'm good, but the other guy has _paid his dues_.
> 
> Who do you hire?


Their skill set being equal, the guy I like the most gets the nod. Simple as that. I couldn't actually care any less about this _I've paid my dues_ entitlement crap. In fact, if I knew a guy felt that way, I'd go out of my way to not use him. Business is business. Brotherhood does not enter into the equation.


----------



## seo (Oct 28, 2008)

MDShunk said:


> Their skill set being equal, the guy I like the most gets the nod. Simple as that. I couldn't actually care any less about this _I've paid my dues_ entitlement crap. In fact, if I knew a guy felt that way, I'd go out of my way to not use him. Business is business. Brotherhood does not enter into the equation.


As an open shop you have that choice but as a signitory contractor you don't. You hire from the top of the book.


----------



## Minuteman (Dec 29, 2007)

seo said:


> As an open shop you have that choice but as a signitory contractor you don't. You hire from the top of the book.


Used to be that way here. About a year ago, I bumped into an assistant B.A. at a parts house. He wanted me to know that I could still catch a call, as now they have "Call-by-name Foreman". Whereby they could bypass everyone on book 1 and move me right out on a foreman's job. He said that he was talking to my old boss and that they were needing service truck guys and it pays foreman scale. :blink:

Yeah, I'm sure the "brothers" will have no problem with a guy who dropped his ticket, marching right ahead in the books and taking a call. :no:


----------



## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

seo said:


> As an open shop you have that choice but as a signitory contractor you don't. You hire from the top of the book.


Don't be so sure. The only thing I know, for sure, is that the "rules" are not at all consistent. In some places, maybe even mine, the union is little more than a temp service for the contractor. :thumbsup:


----------



## spoon (Dec 9, 2008)

MDShunk said:


> Their skill set being equal, the guy I like the most gets the nod. Simple as that. I couldn't actually care any less about this _I've paid my dues_ entitlement crap. In fact, if I knew a guy felt that way, I'd go out of my way to not use him. Business is business. Brotherhood does not enter into the equation.


I can see that you aren't union, and that's okay if you aren't. But every signatory contractor MUST adhere to the referral procedures set forth by the IBEW. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. If you are a union contractor (which means your company is signatory under the collective bargaining agreement of the IBEW) and want to hire a guy simply because he likes the same baseball team that you do, tough bananas. Send him to the hall to get signed up. That's all there is to it... and that sucks sometimes.



seo said:


> As an open shop you have that choice but as a signitory contractor you don't. You hire from the top of the book.


Exactly.



Minuteman said:


> Used to be that way here. About a year ago, I bumped into an assistant B.A. at a parts house. He wanted me to know that I could still catch a call, as now they have "Call-by-name Foreman". Whereby they could bypass everyone on book 1 and move me right out on a foreman's job. He said that he was talking to my old boss and that they were needing service truck guys and it pays foreman scale. :blink:
> 
> Yeah, I'm sure the "brothers" will have no problem with a guy who dropped his ticket, marching right ahead in the books and taking a call. :no:


It's like that around here too. This is the most abused portion of the entire referral procedure if you ask me. You can call-by-name from only two groups of electricians:

*A)* Foremen (*must* have experience as a foreman)
or
*B)* Specially skilled workers (welding, infrared thermographing, etc.)


----------



## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

spoon said:


> But every signatory contractor MUST adhere to the referral procedures set forth by the IBEW. No ifs, ands, or buts about it.


Yeah, well, you know... I've heard that in the past, and I suspect I'll keep hearing it into the future. I'm here to testify that it doesn't go down like that everywhere.


----------



## Minuteman (Dec 29, 2007)

You are correct Marc. The hall is little more than a temp service to the average contractor. If an EC has a new job, call for a few guys goes out. If 2 days later a job finishes, a few other guys may go back to the bench. Man up, man down, as needed. Only a few keep fulltime calls. The bulk come and go.

And before "call-by-name", all a EC would have do is call the dispatcher and see where brother Fred is on the books. "Oh, send me 15 guys". And Fred takes a call. A few days later, 14 guys get laid off.


----------



## spoon (Dec 9, 2008)

Both you fellas are right. Crap like that happens all the time and it really does undermine a lot of things the IBEW stands for. 

Corruption is everywhere, unfortunately.


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

spoon said:


> Both you fellas are right. Crap like that happens all the time and it really does undermine a lot of things the IBEW stands for.
> 
> Corruption is everywhere, unfortunately.


But for many contractors that have fluctuating man power levels it is a very good option to man jobs and the men get a decent wage that is consistent as well as a benefit package that follows them from apprenticeship to retirement a MAJOR benefit IMO.


----------



## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

Minuteman said:


> That's the irony. The international and the local want to organize, most of the brothers don't.


This is an interesting statement. I'd like to open a discussion the psychology involved.

IMO:

The union management probably sees that the better organized the union is the more clout the union has.

The "brothers" may be more interested in protecting themselves. Maybe even protecting themselves from the union organizers?


----------



## BDB (Jul 9, 2008)

nap said:


> Yes, I do but along with your type of situation, the guys that do that a generally not asked to work OT and they are way towards the top of the lay-off list, and rightfully so in my opinion. They may get away with it for awhoil but it is ususally a short lived win.


This is true, but like the old saying goes, it only takes a few bad apples to ruin the whole crop.



nap said:


> You just seem to be very hard on the union. I am either lucky or you are the opposite to have experienced our personal experiences.


Sometimes I am hard on the union, but that is because that is the subject we are on at this time.If I do not like the way something is done I do not care if you are union or non-union, I will give my .02





nap said:


> I do see his point and thankfully, I have not had the experience of attending a school such as BDB has.



Hang on a sec there. Never said the school that I went to was like that.Being on the JATC comm. I visit with other locals some times, and see and hear how their teachers are. I know there are some VERY good teachers in the JATC but I also know there are some that are only there to baby sit.



nap said:


> We cool????


If this was meant for me...then yes we are cool. We are just having a friendly discussion :thumbsup:


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

I think members would be happier to see more open shops come into the IBEW bring with them additional work, rather than extra bodies clamoring for the same amount of work.


----------



## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

*Union Rules & Hookers*​













​

​





*A dedicated Teamsters **
union worker was attending a convention in Las Vegas and decided to check
out the local brothels. When he got to the first one, he asked the Madam,
'Is this a union house?' ​​​*​*


'No,' she replied, 'I'm sorry it isn't.' ​ 
'Well, if I pay you $100, what cut do the girls get?' ​ 

'The house gets $80 and the girls get $20,' she answered ​ 

Offended at such unfair dealings, the union man stomped off down the street
in search of a more equitable, hopefully unionized shop. His search continued
until finally he reached a brothel where the Madam responded, 'Why yes 
sir, this is a union house. ​ 

We observe all union rules.' ​ 

The man asked, 'And if I pay you $100, what cut do the girls get?' 'T he
girls get $80 and the house gets $20.' ​ 

'That's more like it!' the union man said. ​ 

He handed the Madam $100, looked around the room, and pointed to a stunningly 
attractive green-eyed blonde. ​​​ 

*






*


'I'd like her,' he said. ​​​*​*

'I'm sure you would, sir,' said the Madam. Then she gestured to a 92-year
old woman in the corner, 'but Ethel here has 67 years seniority and according
to union rules, she's next.' ​​​*​*

*






 
​


----------



## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

I hope I don't get banned for my last post. (Oh yea, this is not the PC forum, whew!).


----------



## Minuteman (Dec 29, 2007)

brian john said:


> I think members would be happier to see more open shops come into the IBEW bring with them additional work, rather than extra bodies clamoring for the same amount of work.


So, the union wants our work, not our workers? :blink:





> *CONSTITUTION OF NATIONAL BROTHERHOOD OF **ELECTRICAL WORKERS **Preamble 1891*
> _We earnestly invite all men belonging to our trade to come forward, join our ranks and help increase our number_, until such time there shall be no man working at our trade outside our Brotherhood, and as eternal vigilance is the price of liberty, so is a close attention to the duties of our Brotherhood the protection of our natural interests, a duty all the more compulsory on us, as our standing among our fellow mechanics demands that we shall not be backward in bringing our trade to an equal standing with any other in the land. And we know of no means to accomplish this than by organization. Therefore it is the imperative duty of every _Electrical Worker to do all in his power to organize the men of his craft, and thus place ourselves in the material, social and moral position the dignity of our trade entitles us to._


Hmmmm?


----------



## cmec (Feb 11, 2008)

hardworkingstiff said:


> I hope I don't get banned for my last post. (Oh yea, this is not the PC forum, whew!).


KINDA DOBUT IT, this aint mike holt we arent politacally correct here


----------



## Big R (Jan 10, 2008)

Ya I heard that joke at the JATC. Got quite a laugh.


----------

