# Resi guys, favorite panel brand?



## TGGT

I'm planning on upgrading my 60A to 200A and relocating it to the garage on the opposite side of the house. Undecided on interior or exterior (brick) wall of the garage, its common here to have them outside, but probably for install convenience by the meter.

I want to make it easy to modify for either for back up generator or even PV in the future. Brands/models would be appreciated.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


----------



## HackWork

This is almost like discussing politics or religion. Everybody has their own opinion and are strongly set in their ways.

I have never seen any benefit from using a more expensive panel such as a Square D QO or Cutler Hammer CH. I generally install Siemens brand panels because a lot of the supply houses stock them. I also install Square D Homeline when it works better in that situation.

One thing that you should consider is that anything more than 30 circuits in a panel is getting a bit tight and sloppy. So if you have a lot of circuits, I would install 2 30 space panels. Save space in the main panel for larger loads like future solar, electric cars, etc.


----------



## Navyguy

I am not particularly loyal, but we install almost exclusively Siemens panels for resi work. The only reason is that the supplier for them is close and they have good inventory.

When the time arises, we will match what may be existing in another part of the home or if we are doing a larger panel we will match for breakers if they are in good shape.

Cheers
John


----------



## Switched

It is usually Siemens or Homeline, that is what the supply houses I use stock.

I don't think I have installed a CH/BR panel since I have had my own shop, come to think of it we never installed them at the other shops I worked for either. 

Both Siemens and Homeline stuff is good quality, I rarely have issues with either of them.


----------



## readydave8

Also Siemans and HO! more siemans in the past, more HO nowadays. And some BR, I learned to hate Bryant after putting many in so evidently Cutler-Hammer made some improvements

I don't like ge

Seen CH and QO panels with breakers coming loose of stabs, especially older panels with missing covers (CH would sell cover separate from panel, so there are many around here that never had a cover)


----------



## macmikeman

Eim a Pirate, soo's me favrite panels are Eaton Br's. What? Yuu doin't like that?
Arrrrrr matey's I'll cut your stairs off with me scabbard



HEY, If chevy and ford can make crappy vans and not look backwards, then I'm in the me too crowd...............


----------



## HackWork

I think CH BR is pretty much the same a Siemens and Homeline.

One thing that I like is that the Homelines are available here in 30/60 panels, which means plenty of neutral and ground spaces.

The Siemens available around here are generally 30/30 panels which means never enough neutral spaces and you need a ground bar anyway. That $8 really eats into my profit.


----------



## macmikeman

Big Question: Who here has ever had a panel failure before the one year warranty is up? Me neither, never happened. In 42 years of work it never happened. And after they pass the one year warranty? F'em all but six boys, you need to keep the six to carry the coffin........


----------



## HackWork

The only problem that I have ever had with a new panel that I installed was a CH-CH panel in which the breakers just popped off. They would not stay on the bus, they might hold for a couple seconds and then would just pop off. I searched and found MDShunk talking about it many years ago on another forum.

It really turned me off the CH-CH.


----------



## Forge Boyz

I personally like the low trip curves on Square D. Don't know that it actually matters, because all brands sold today meet the listing requirements, but it's a feel good thing to me. 

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## EJPHI

I like Square D QO because you can get a copper bus if you order the right ones. They finally came up with 2 pole AFCIs for MWBCs.

Oh and I am from Milwaukee so go Brewers for what its worth.

They still do not offer a EUSERC panel though.


The Seimens panels have a partial copper bus, but the bus on the POCO side is Aluminium connected with sheet metal screws.

CH CH sounds interesting.


----------



## Going_Commando

Forge Boyz said:


> I personally like the low trip curves on Square D. Don't know that it actually matters, because all brands sold today meet the listing requirements, but it's a feel good thing to me.
> 
> Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


Same. Regardless of application we now install predominantly Square-D. We do have some temp services built with GE panels, which is nice, because the carpenters never bitch about breakers tripping.


----------



## MikeFL

I like having a MDP for all the heavier loads and a MLO for all the lighting & receptacle branch circuits in a single family. It just makes for easier working in the panels. 


As to inside or outside, inside sure is nicer at 3am during a storm when you want to know why that one circuit is dead.


As to the ATS that would be easier outside but I'd still put everything inside.


As to brand, whatever is going to have parts immediately available in your area when you need something as others have said.


----------



## The_Modifier

HackWork said:


> This is almost like discussing politics or religion. Everybody has their own opinion and are strongly set in their ways.
> 
> I have never seen any benefit from using a more expensive panel such as a Square D QO or Cutler Hammer CH. I generally install Siemens brand panels because a lot of the supply houses stock them. I also install Square D Homeline when it works better in that situation.
> 
> One thing that you should consider is that anything more than 30 circuits in a panel is getting a bit tight and sloppy. So if you have a lot of circuits, I would install 2 30 space panels. Save space in the main panel for larger loads like future solar, electric cars, etc.


Come on Hax, you and I both know the FPE is the go to brand. :devil3::vs_laugh:


----------



## sbrn33

I go with Siemens 90% of the time. I like their neutral set up way way better than qo. I only use the copper buss though.


----------



## 460 Delta

I don’t do residential, but when I put in a lighting panel I generally want a CH series panel. I like the way they’re put together, the bus issue is a new one to me. Was it one of those we made a bad run kind of things?


----------



## 99cents

Leviton.

Just kidding. 

Siemens. I used to be QO but I had a run of bad breakers. I don't give a rat's ass about copper buss. I never even thought about it before ET.


----------



## HackWork

99cent$ said:


> Leviton.
> 
> Just kidding.
> 
> Siemens. I used to be QO but I had a run of bad breakers. I don't give a rat's ass about copper buss. I never even thought about it before ET.


Yeah, you can't even get the PL copper bus Siemens panels from supply houses around here because only homeowners would buy them. 

The only thing that they have are the ES series, but those don't have enough neutral spaces, which is why I like the Sq D Homeline 30/60 panels.


----------



## AK_sparky

Homeline. Cheapest and most readily available where I was last time I needed one. I don't install panels often.


----------



## sbrn33

HackWork said:


> Yeah, you can't even get the PL copper bus Siemens panels from supply houses around here because only homeowners would buy them.
> 
> The only thing that they have are the ES series, but those don't have enough neutral spaces, which is why I like the Sq D Homeline 30/60 panels.


The copper is something like $6 more, hell why not?


----------



## HackWork

sbrn33 said:


> The copper is something like $6 more, hell why not?


Siemens PL panels are available to you for $6 more than ES? Then I would go for it just for the free ground bars.

But it's hard to find PL panels at all. I used to order them from HomeDepot.com since they had good deals, but they often got beat up in shipping.


----------



## matt1124

Eaton. Seems like quality has gone down on the BR line lately, coming across more failure than I used to. I like the CH line just fine, no problems for me but they make these things by the thousands, sure to be dud every now and then.

Homeline is what all the homeowner DIYs use around here, probably a good panel, just turned me off to them because mentally I associate them with **** work.

QO is my second choice. I like the PoN better than Eaton. Two stocking dealers that I know of, one is Graybar, which I don't have a house account at, so my pricing sucks, an the other didn't know what plug-on-neutral was until they special ordered a bunch for me.

Nobody stocks siemens around here. You might find some dust covered breakers at home depot if you dig hard enough. Same with Murray.


----------



## 99cents

Those tiny ground bars scattered around the back of Schneider panels are dumb, especially when they do the spinnerama.


----------



## JoeSparky

S4080B1200A is my go to panel for resi new construction. Siemens Wireguide ES (aluminum bus) 40 space, 80 circuit 200a main breaker. It has full length neutral bars down both sides - 80 terminals.


----------



## Switched

Just be honest everyone... 

Whatever is the cheapest one you can get, or that you have lying around in the bone pile!


----------



## Chaz

The company I work for uses homeline all-in-one. Fairly easy to install


----------



## circuitman1

three differnt ones in this order square D QO,homeline & GE.find brekers most any where.:smile::smile:


----------



## MTW

Square D I-line.


----------



## JoeSparky

MTW said:


> Square D I-line.


How many of them did you score at the Depot? Did you leave any for me? Did the price end in .06 or .03?
:vs_laugh:


----------



## MTW

JoeSparky said:


> How many of them did you score at the Depot? Did you leave any for me? Did the price end in .06 or .03?
> :vs_laugh:


----------



## lighterup

HackWork said:


> Siemens PL panels are available to you for $6 more than ES? Then I would go for it just for the free ground bars.
> 
> But it's hard to find PL panels at all. I used to order them from HomeDepot.com since *they had good deals, but they often got beat up in shipping*.


yep...shippers throw them around and the panel cover corners get all bent.Try to bend them back , paint chips off and it looks like you just sold a used panel


----------



## lighterup

matt1124 said:


> Eaton. Seems like quality has gone down on the BR line lately, coming across more failure than I used to. I like the CH line just fine, no problems for me but they make these things by the thousands, sure to be dud every now and then.
> 
> Homeline is what all the homeowner DIYs use around here, probably a good panel, just turned me off to them because mentally I associate them with **** work.
> 
> QO is my second choice. I like the PoN better than Eaton. Two stocking dealers that I know of, one is Graybar, which I don't have a house account at, so my pricing sucks, an the other didn't know what plug-on-neutral was until they special ordered a bunch for me.
> 
> Nobody stocks siemens around here. You might find some dust covered breakers at home depot if you dig hard enough. Same with Murray.


I was using Eaton BR , but for some reason all the Blowes stores are making it more difficult to get them on line now , so I switched to HD and bought
my first SQ D Homeline Panel withe the fast connecting neutral bar (or
whatever their calling that ).

I was surprised at how much better built the Homeline is then the BR
panels. Heavier steel , Main breaker and regular breakers seem like
they have more weight to them as well.

We'll see how well it works after I energize (afci's mainly)


----------



## flyboy

lighterup said:


> I was using Eaton BR , but for some reason all the Blowes stores are making it more difficult to get them on line now , so I switched to HD and bought
> my first SQ D Homeline Panel withe the fast connecting neutral bar (or
> whatever their calling that ).
> 
> I was surprised at how much better built the Homeline is then the BR
> panels. Heavier steel , Main breaker and regular breakers seem like
> they have more weight to them as well.
> 
> *We'll see how well it works after I energize (afci's mainly)*


Be sure to wear full PPE and have a qualified electrician with you. :vs_laugh:


----------



## lighterup

flyboy said:


> Be sure to wear full PPE and have a qualified electrician with you. :vs_laugh:


Ohhh bite me


----------



## flyboy

lighterup said:


> Ohhh bite me


:vs_smirk::vs_rightHere:


----------



## lighterup

flyboy said:


> :vs_smirk::vs_rightHere:


I'll let you have last word.:vs_mad:


----------



## nrp3

MTW said:


> Square D I-line.


I have one customer with an I Line panel for the main panel. Probably a few others out there in large homes.


----------



## svh19044

For residential, they are all good enough. I've seem them all have breakers go bad, but for the most part, they are all just fine. 

Lately I have been using the Sq D 40/80 homeline with the quick grip inserts and plug on neutrals.


----------



## Deadhead_84

Siemans or Eaton/CH all day. Square D is going down the tubes. I was recently doing services for a solar company and they went from Square D to Siemans because SqD had a "recall" (not technically a full recall but several had issues not disengaging the stabs when you pulled the handle into the OFF position). Anyways, the level of quality of the Siemans discos compared to SqD is unreal. SqD had thin, sharp metal, you could twist the whole box almost. The plastic at the end of the handle would gather water, just a poor design. Basically every part of the Siemans was superior. Better metal with smooth edges, even thick coat of paint; the handle had a rubber grip that didn't hold water; the entire mechanism inside felt like it could handle a million throws...just very solid. Square D used to be king, it's an American company...but just so hard to see such a decline in quality.


----------



## tmessner

HackWork said:


> The only problem that I have ever had with a new panel that I installed was a CH-CH panel in which the breakers just popped off. They would not stay on the bus, they might hold for a couple seconds and then would just pop off. I searched and found MDShunk talking about it many years ago on another forum.
> 
> It really turned me off the CH-CH.


We had a problem with that a few years ago. You could look at he stab on the panel and tell if it would work or not. I think the stamping machine had a set of dull cutters.


----------



## MTW

Eaton BR plug-on neutral is my new favorite. The regular sized AFCI breakers are great now that practically everything requires them.  

I'm all done with Square D.


----------



## mjbasford

Love square d homeline for non high end stuff. Have not tried the plug on neutral (afci exemptions). But guessing I will soon, I'm sure they'll discontinue the cheaper models soon


----------



## zac

I do allot of service upgrades and prefer the square d homeline. I like the fact that the breakers are in two rows not one. The one row breaker type panels get messy with all the wires forced on one side. Bending #6 wire in a 4" space is no bueno. 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## HackWork

zac said:


> I do allot of service upgrades and prefer the square d homeline. I like the fact that the breakers are in two rows not one. The one row breaker type panels get messy with all the wires forced on one side. Bending #6 wire in a 4" space is no bueno.


I am so confused. 2 rows of breakers? 1 row? :surprise: 4" of space?


----------



## HackWork

I have been using Homeline more because they are a lot shorter than Siemens. The Siemens panels have this absolutely huge area at the top which makes their panels so long that they don't fit into the space that I need them to fit. Homeline panels are much shorter and work better.


----------



## CoolWill

HackWork said:


> I am so confused. 2 rows of breakers? 1 row? :surprise: 4" of space?


Probably talking about those silly outdoor meter/mains that Westerners like to use. All the ones I have seen have one row of breakers.


----------



## Dan the electricman

CoolWill said:


> Probably talking about those silly outdoor meter/mains that Westerners like to use. All the ones I have seen have one row of breakers.












:wink:


----------



## zac

HackWork said:


> I am so confused. 2 rows of breakers? 1 row? :surprise: 4" of space?


The post above mine shows what's typical here with everything except the homeline series (I think). The bending radius will be roughly the same on a "1 row or two row bus", it's just the wires get dense when dealing with many dedicated circuits on a single row set up. Many dead fronts here are bulging out because. The photo below shows the panel I prefer.









Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## zac

Another reason I prefer the homeline is that it's semi flush. Our panels in southern California are located outside... typically next to the garage. If you want to add an exterior circuit the homeline panel has exterior knockouts to use because the panel sits about 2 inches off the stucco. Consequently It's not flush with the stucco or siding but adding circuits is much less problematic in regards to fishing or drywall damage (backside of panel in garage) and stucco/ siding penetration. 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## HackWork

I see, I thought we were talking about panels.


----------



## zac

HackWork said:


> I see, I thought we were talking about panels.


I was. Combo mains are over half of the panels here. Only the newer homes, bigger old homes or remodels will offer a sub panel. 
The knob and tube homes will have the meter separate and the panel inside the house. Allot of times the meter box is set flush into the house and covered with stucco. There's one around my house that I'll try a take a picture of. Looks like a cyclops. 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## HackWork

zac said:


> I was.


 What you posted isn't a panel, it's a


zac said:


> Combo main


----------



## zac

HackWork said:


> What you posted isn't a panel, it's a


Last word. 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## HackWork

zac said:


> Last word.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Meter main! :vs_mad::vs_mad::vs_mad:


----------



## MTW

zac said:


> I was. Combo mains are over half of the panels here. Only the newer homes, bigger old homes or remodels will offer a sub panel.
> The knob and tube homes will have the meter separate and the panel inside the house. Allot of times the meter box is set flush into the house and covered with stucco. There's one around my house that I'll try a take a picture of. Looks like a cyclops.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Aren't those 20 circuit all-in-ones obsolete with AFCI's now? My friends had a tract house built in 1998 in San Diego county which had one of those similar to the one you pictured stuffed with twins. Since then I've seen houses there with 40 circuit all-in-ones for AFCI's.


----------



## zac

MTW said:


> Aren't those 20 circuit all-in-ones obsolete with AFCI's now? My friends had a tract house built in 1998 in San Diego county which had one of those similar to the one you pictured stuffed with twins. Since then I've seen houses there with 40 circuit all-in-ones for AFCI's.





MTW said:


> Aren't those 20 circuit all-in-ones obsolete with AFCI's now? My friends had a tract house built in 1998 in San Diego county which had one of those similar to the one you pictured stuffed with twins. Since then I've seen houses there with 40 circuit all-in-ones for AFCI's.


No you can get them still. I did a service upgrade yesterday with a home only having 3 circuits. I gave them a solar ready 40 space panel because I wanted too. But sometimes on underground feeds that are rated 125 amps, with minimal circuits I will provide a 20 circuit panel. It all depends on what their future plans are and the space that's available for me to work with. 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## sparkiez

I install whatever. Lots of BR panels. I don't like BR panels. I like the CH breaker-type. I mean, they hold TIGHT. Homeline seems to offer a tighter tolerance than BR panels' bus bars if you are going for that particular form factor.


----------



## 99cents

Anything but Square D. Maybe it was good at one time but now it’s just Schneider junk. It’s not just their panels.


----------



## Going_Commando

99cents said:


> Anything but Square D. Maybe it was good at one time but now it’s just Schneider junk. It’s not just their panels.


Lol.


----------



## HackWork

99cents said:


> Anything but Square D. Maybe it was good at one time but now it’s just Schneider junk. It’s not just their panels.


Odd. I haven't seen any difference. I am actually in the process of switching from Siemens to Sq D Homeline as my panel of choice.


----------



## zac

The guy switched from Milwaukee to Bosch, I don't think you can go by his recommendation [emoji23]

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## Greg Sparkovich

So it seems most people seem to prefer Siemens or Square D/Homline.

I use Siemens PL series exclusively. Mostly because Siemens is popular where I live ...and because of the copper bus bar. I was concerned with the failure rate of Siemens breakers, but I had a conversation with Dr. Jesse Aronstein and he recommends copper bus bars over his concerns over breaker brands.

(Interesting read: https://inspectapedia.com/electric/Circuit_Breaker_Failures.php)

The PL-series seems well built, but the design is annoying.

1). I'm on a new kick to have neutrals terminate beside the CBs they go with ...can't do that with these panels because the Neutral bus bar isn't long enough. I could just do them in order though...sigh.

2). The ground bus is really near to the top of the panel ...and so the ground wire has to separate from the hot and neutral right away ...I like(d) to keep everything together and as close to the same length as possible.

3) Because of the configuration of the ground and neutral buses, there is little space to run all 3 wires down each side of the panel. I like my wires to go to the bottom of the panel and come up to the breaker (side issue on panel replacements: nothing pisses me off more than those twits who bring a wire in and go at right angles to the bus bars and the breakers ...how many times have I replaced a panel with something larger and now the wires are too short because some annal nit-wit wanted their work to "look pretty"?!?)

4). This is more personal: I use the Milwaukee 8'n1 (whatever) screw drivers and the plastic handle hits the edge of the box when tightening neutrals.

5). This kills me: the neutral bus does not have any large holes! What if I have a 60 amp sub-panel???
5b). Same goes for the DP circuit breakers ...I've had times when I want to reconfigure 5 or 6 panel loads on a 200 amp service and all the panels are run with #2 SE ...but I want to swap a 100 amp breaker with a 60 amp breaker that will not fit #2 wire. Both Square D and Eaton have DP 60A CBs that have large terminals. :-(

So my new question is which *copper bus* panel do you like/use???


----------



## HackWork

Greg Sparkovich said:


> 1). I'm on a new kick to have neutrals terminate beside the CBs they go with ...can't do that with these panels because the Neutral bus bar isn't long enough. I could just do them in order though...sigh.


 That's why I like the Homeline panels. The neutral bars go the entire way down next to the breakers.



> 2). The ground bus is really near to the top of the panel ...and so the ground wire has to separate from the hot and neutral right away ...I like(d) to keep everything together and as close to the same length as possible.


 The benefit of having the ground bar at the top means that short ground wires don't have to be spliced to reach. It also cuts down on the amount of wiring down below.



> 3) Because of the configuration of the ground and neutral buses, there is little space to run all 3 wires down each side of the panel. I like my wires to go to the bottom of the panel and come up to the breaker (side issue on panel replacements: nothing pisses me off more than those twits who bring a wire in and go at right angles to the bus bars and the breakers ...how many times have I replaced a panel with something larger and now the wires are too short because some annal nit-wit wanted their work to "look pretty"?!?)


 Apparently I am one of those twits. I hate working in a panel that has extra wire looped down in it, it makes it very tight, just too much wire. I never do that. I instal a panel knowing it will last 50+ years and I am not worried if the next person to install a panel has to extend some wires. 



> So my new question is which *copper bus* panel do you like/use???


Whatever one costs the same as the aluminum bus panel. Sometimes Siemens PL panels are real cheap at Home Depot, slightly more than the ES of the same size. But the PL comes with ground bars which makes it a better deal. Other than that, I am not spending more on copper bus, just like I am not spending more on copper wire.


----------



## HackWork

Here is the typical panel of mine. I’m not going to feel bad if the guy who upgrades this in 50 years has to splice some wires to reach the breakers. That’s his job. Why should I make a mess out of the panel with lots of extra wire to save someone else from doing their job?


----------



## joe-nwt

QO for me. Main reason is that's what my supplier carries and they have good inventory. 

No issues for about 3 decades.


----------



## 99cents

joe-nwt said:


> QO for me. Main reason is that's what my supplier carries and they have good inventory.
> 
> No issues for about 3 decades.


I had some dead QO breakers. Only happened once. Now I use Siemens mostly. They bang them out in Canada. I get my best deal on their 3 phase panels too.


----------



## Forge Boyz

HackWork said:


> Here is the typical panel of mine. I’m not going to feel bad if the guy who upgrades this in 50 years has to splice some wires to reach the breakers. That’s his job. Why should I make a mess out of the panel with lots of extra wire to save someone else from doing their job?
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 143892


What is with the wedge in the feeder conduit? Is that in a highrise?

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## HackWork

Forge Boyz said:


> What is with the wedge in the feeder conduit? Is that in a highrise?


Yup. 16 story condo.


----------



## Forge Boyz

HackWork said:


> Yup. 16 story condo.


Why not a 4 wire feeder? I see the grounds and nuetrals aren't separate.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## HackWork

Forge Boyz said:


> Why not a 4 wire feeder? I see the grounds and nuetrals aren't separate.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


The feeder is piped in, the pipe is the EGC. All of the branch circuits are using BX cable. There are no grounds at all in the panel. The neutral bar is isolated from the panel.


----------



## Forge Boyz

Gotcha. The picture is a little blurry and I thought I saw bare copper mixed in with the neutrals on the left. My bad.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## HackWork

Forge Boyz said:


> Gotcha. The picture is a little blurry and I thought I saw bare copper mixed in with the neutrals on the left. My bad.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


It’s really nice not having any grounds. Easier to wire up and less wiring in the panel.


----------



## Max C.

The guys I've worked with almost exclusively use Eaton BR. Overall, they're decent panels and have infinitely improved over the years. The new painted backpans are sleek and I've yet to have an issue with their current AFCI breakers.

As for Eaton CH panels, they're extremely uncommon around here. One guy I worked for used their hot-tub disconnects (which were fine). How many fellow Canadians have dealt with CH products?

I've installed a whole _*one*_ (Canadian) HomeLine panel. It seemed solid enough, however - as 99 pointed out - the groundbars were an absolute joke compared to others.


HackWork said:


> Here is the typical panel of mine.


That looks better than (easily) 75% of the panels I've seen. Those labels made me tinkle a little, too!


----------



## Kevin

Max C. said:


> How many fellow Canadians have dealt with CH products?



I have installed a whomping 1 CH... and it was a spa pack with GFCI breaker supplied with the hot tub.


> I've installed a whole _*one*_ (Canadian) HomeLine panel.


I've installed quite a few Homeline panels. We use them for apartments... I'm not really sure why, I just do. I wouldn't use them in a house tho... Personal Preference. 

For houses, I have been installing Eaton BR, Siemens, or SquareD QO panels with Eaton being the most popular. I like that they have push on neutrals now... it keeps the panel cleaner.

I have not installed a single GE panel, and probably never will.

I've also been wanting to use one of those cool cutler hammer BR panels with the generator section and built in transfer switch. They look neat, and would be great to use for farms where you'd never sell a standby generator.

Sent from my new phone. Autocorrect may have changed stuff.


----------



## MTW

Leviton. 

(I had to roll out the new triple rolleyes for that one.)


----------



## nrp3

I have a customer who would like to me to install one of these:

https://www.span.io/smart-panel-product 

and a powerwall to go with it.

I've filled out the email thing a few times, but no response.


----------



## JoeSparky

nrp3 said:


> I have a customer who would like to me to install one of these:
> 
> https://www.span.io/smart-panel-product
> 
> and a powerwall to go with it.
> 
> I've filled out the email thing a few times, but no response.



Looks like Homeline guts


----------



## nrp3

At least the standard square d 200 amp main. It says it’s listed for several one inch style breakers which I didn’t see before. I don’t like that it’s only a 32 space panel, though I can bet from an engineering standpoint, that’s all they could fit with the extra gear in there. For a lot of houses I work on that’s not enough space.


----------



## Kevin

MTW said:


> Leviton.
> 
> (I had to roll out the new triple rolleyes for that one.)


That's the one I forgot to mention... I'd like to try one out. I like that the neutrals can be landed during the rough in... I'd only use a Leviton panel for new construction though.

Sent from my new phone. Autocorrect may have changed stuff.


----------



## HackWork

Kevin_Essiambre said:


> That's the one I forgot to mention... I'd like to try one out. *I like that the neutrals can be landed during the rough in*... I'd only use a Leviton panel for new construction though.


You mean the hots. 

That is a turn-off to me. I find a lot of issues with bad connections where the hot wire lands on the breaker. Making that an integral part of the panel means that you can't replace that connection point like you can with a normal panel (by replacing the $4 breaker).


----------



## MHElectric

I've installed them all. Homeline is my favorite, but I will install whatever I need to get the job done.


----------



## MTW

MHElectric said:


> I've installed them all. Homeline is my favorite, but I will install whatever I need to get the job done.



Same here. I usually go by whatever particular breaker I have an abundance of and would like to get rid of. 

Also, if a panel has a bunch of particular brand of breaker that are reasonably new, I'll just buy that panel brand and recycle the breakers into it.


----------



## MHElectric

MTW said:


> Same here. I usually go by whatever particular breaker I have an abundance of and would like to get rid of.
> 
> Also, if a panel has a bunch of particular brand of breaker that are reasonably new, I'll just buy that panel brand and recycle the breakers into it.


I think I go through seasons where I'll use different brands just to change things up a little bit. Sometimes that's the key to keeping things enjoyable.


----------



## JoeSparky

My favorite panel brand is any brand fuse panel. My 2nd favorite is Federal Pacific. My 3rd favorite is Zinsco. All of the above have made me more money then any other panel :thumbup::biggrin:


----------



## readydave8

I was reminded today of why I don't like CH panels

Should have been simple task to change one breaker to GFCI breaker

First would not slide back far enough to clip, the plastic bracket at bottom of neutral bar was in the way

Other breakers kept popping loose of bus bar as I was struggling with the GFCI breaker

And the original installer . . . , o never mind, an alligator from NJ gonna say that the more I had to fix, the more money I would make.:wink:


----------



## MTW

JoeSparky said:


> My favorite panel brand is any brand fuse panel. My 2nd favorite is Federal Pacific. My 3rd favorite is Zinsco. All of the above have made me more money then any other panel :thumbup::biggrin:


I see.


----------



## HackWork

readydave8 said:


> And the original installer . . . , o never mind, an alligator from NJ gonna say that the more I had to fix, the more money I would make.:wink:


It’s not like that at all.


----------



## MTW

Kevin_Essiambre said:


> That's the one I forgot to mention... I'd like to try one out. I like that the neutrals can be landed during the rough in... I'd only use a Leviton panel for new construction though.


They look nice, but I'm leery of using an untested proprietary design with limited distribution, though that's changed now that HD carries them.  

And they aren't priced any lower than the "breaker cartel" products either. :no::no: In fact, they are a tad more expensive.


----------



## readydave8

HackWork said:


> It’s not like that at all.


Original installer didn't leave enough slack in bundle

(not talking about extra loop, just wish there had been enough slack to run bundle close to side of panel),

the way it was I had to extend wire with pigtail from a couple breakers so that GFCI breaker would fit

By the way, I don't like CH. Am OK with BR, they're better than the Bryant with color-coded handles that I think they are descended from


----------



## Going_Commando

After seeing the plug on nuetral BR panels, we are trying a couple out. I hate how big the square d afci breakers are, and places stocking that quick grip BS is annoying. We can get BR from a supply house for similar pricing.


----------



## 460 Delta

MTW said:


> They look nice, but I'm leery of using an untested proprietary design with limited distribution, though that's changed now that HD carries them.
> 
> And they aren't priced any lower than the "breaker cartel" products either. :no::no: In fact, they are a tad more expensive.


Leviton=Trilliant


----------



## MTW

460 Delta said:


> Leviton=Trilliant


Is that so?


----------



## nrp3

The BR, Siemens, and GE all have the same footprint of the regular breakers. The square d ones are huge, plug on or not.


----------



## JoeSparky

Leviton is going to help fight against the breaker cartel :no::no:


----------



## MTW

nrp3 said:


> The BR, Siemens, and GE all have the same footprint of the regular breakers. The square d ones are huge, plug on or not.


Yes, and that's why I hate them for new construction. :yes:


----------



## 460 Delta

MTW said:


> Is that so?


 I see.
I just broke out the new triple rolleyes myself!


----------



## nrp3

MTW said:


> Yes, and that's why I hate them for new construction. :yes:



and even worse if you need to replace some with AFCI in renos with ugly panels with full gutter space, yuck. They work well enough, but too big.


----------



## Kevin

MTW said:


> They look nice, but I'm leery of using an untested proprietary design with limited distribution, though that's changed now that HD carries them.
> 
> And they aren't priced any lower than the "breaker cartel" products either. :no::no: In fact, they are a tad more expensive.


Thats 2 of the reasons we haven't tried them yet. I'd like to get my hands on one with some breakers and the hub kit for testing it, and to see how it holds up... but I don't want to pay for one...

Sent from my new phone. Autocorrect may have changed stuff.


----------



## Quickservice

HackWork said:


> The only problem that I have ever had with a new panel that I installed was a CH-CH panel in which the breakers just popped off. They would not stay on the bus, they might hold for a couple seconds and then would just pop off. I searched and found MDShunk talking about it many years ago on another forum.
> 
> It really turned me off the CH-CH.


Same here, have had problems with the tan CH’s popping loose. QO’s will do it too. I do like the the Eaton BR.


----------



## Max C.

Kevin_Essiambre said:


> I've installed quite a few Homeline panels. We use them for apartments...


Apparently, Homeline equipment is competitively-priced when ordered in-bulk, which is why you'll often see them in apartments and condominiums.


Kevin_Essiambre said:


> I have not installed a single GE panel, and probably never will.


Same here. How many have you seen locally? Also, how available the breakers? One guy I worked for insisted on using a BR breaker instead of sourcing a compatible two-pole 30 from GE...


----------



## Quickservice

JoeSparky said:


> My favorite panel brand is any brand fuse panel. My 2nd favorite is Federal Pacific. My 3rd favorite is Zinsco. All of the above have made me more money then any other panel :thumbup::biggrin:


Why did you leave out the Wadsworth breaker panel? :vs_laugh:


----------



## Kevin

Max C. said:


> Apparently, Homeline equipment is competitively-priced when ordered in-bulk, which is why you'll often see them in apartments and condominiums.



Yeah, some of the ones we have installed were ordered bulk (insert kits for amalgamated fuse panels)... we didn't order them, we only helped install them (we worked as a subcontractor for another EC)




> Same here. How many have you seen locally? Also, how available the breakers? One guy I worked for insisted on using a BR breaker instead of sourcing a compatible two-pole 30 from GE...


I have seen _maybe_ 5 GE panels in the houses I have worked in. Breakers are plentiful here. There's at least 3 different suppliers that carry the breakers.

I don't like GE panels because of their weird spacesaver breaker design.... wanna add a 1p 15a breaker? Well you need a panel filler...

Sent from my new phone. Autocorrect may have changed stuff.


----------



## 460 Delta

Quickservice said:


> Why did you leave out the Wadsworth breaker panel? :vs_laugh:


While the Wadsworth panel is really dated, they were solidly built and are still in use in several plants I work on. Breakers are still available from a local vendor at a price that is reasonable considering the age and scarcity of them.


----------



## JoeSparky

Quickservice said:


> Why did you leave out the Wadsworth breaker panel? :vs_laugh:


Other than their age, there have been no reliability problems or recalls having to do with those panels or breakers. People get their homeowners insurance cancelled over fuse panels. 
Fuse panels are generally safe when they are not tampered with. However people tend to screw oversized fuses, or pennies in which makes them unsafe.
Both Zinsco and FPE had problems with the breakers and the bus bars. They both are a fire hazard. Any customer with one of those, I suggest they sell their wife and mortgage the cat and knock off a convenience store if necessary to get those panels replaced. Under the right set of circumstances, they could lose their house in a fire due to one of those defective panels.


----------



## MTW

FPE's are literal fire starters, I changed one last winter that was actually melting down and got so hot it charred the plywood backboard. The lineman cut the service drop at the pole before the house burned down, he was there already to investigate loss of power to the house and discovered the FPE main breaker in meltdown mode.


----------



## Max C.

kevin_essiambre said:


> i have seen _maybe_ 5 ge panels in the houses i have worked in. Breakers are plentiful here. There's at least 3 different suppliers that carry the breakers.
> 
> I don't like ge panels because of their weird spacesaver breaker design.... Wanna add a 1p 15a breaker? Well you need a panel filler...


Wow, out here I've only ever seen two (in homes). Seeing 347V GE panels in older commercial buildings isn't too uncommon, though. City Electric (the one supply-house in-town which sells their equipment) doesn't appear to keep any regular stock on the shelves.

Kevin, you aren't the only one who hates those spacesavers!


----------



## Quickservice

Kevin_Essiambre said:


> That's the one I forgot to mention... I'd like to try one out. I like that the neutrals can be landed during the rough in... I'd only use a Leviton panel for new construction though.
> 
> Sent from my new phone. Autocorrect may have changed stuff.


I have seen the Leviton Ad’s, but no one around here is stocking them - yet. Where are you finding yours, Graybar?


----------



## Kevin

Quickservice said:


> I have seen the Leviton Ad’s, but no one around here is stocking them - yet. Where are you finding yours, Graybar?


Futurplus.

I have some friends that works there... they were _supposed to_ get me pricing on a tub, the hub kit, and an assortment of breakers. They have one hanging on their wall. Next time I'm there I'll take a photo.

Sent from my new phone. Autocorrect may have changed stuff.


----------



## joe-nwt

Kevin_Essiambre said:


> Futurplus.
> 
> I have some friends that works there... they were _supposed to_ get me pricing on a tub, the hub kit, and an assortment of breakers. They have one hanging on their wall. Next time I'm there I'll take a photo.
> 
> Sent from my new phone. Autocorrect may have changed stuff.


6 month after it's unveiling, I wonder if it will ever become commonplace?


----------



## Max C.

Here's a couple Leviton unboxing videos. Personally, I'm still unconvinced...


----------



## WannabeTesla

Am I the only one Gorilla taping pennies into empty Corn Flakes boxes and calling it good?


----------



## wcord

Kevin_Essiambre said:


> Yeah, some of the ones we have installed were ordered bulk (insert kits for amalgamated fuse panels)... we didn't order them, we only helped install them (we worked as a subcontractor for another EC)
> 
> 
> I have seen _maybe_ 5 GE panels in the houses I have worked in. Breakers are plentiful here. There's at least 3 different suppliers that carry the breakers.
> 
> I don't like GE panels because of their weird spacesaver breaker design.... wanna add a 1p 15a breaker? Well you need a panel filler...
> 
> Sent from my new phone. Autocorrect may have changed stuff.


You wont see too many GE panels.
GE jumped into the resi market many years ago. Then they left for about 20years or so.
When they returned, a lot of the established contractors wouldn't touch them for fear of being abandoned again. 
It also didn't help that there was a problem with the bus bar in the old panels. So GE had an uphill battle which they lost


----------



## MTW

Leviton panels appeared in HD here about a month ago. I can already see the dust gathering on the boxes. :laughing: Pricing is not competitive with the established 1" brands, therefore the only "benefit" is the plug on breaker design. 

I'll be a broken record again but I just don't see them gaining traction. Contractors are already leery of proprietary designs especially in my area. QO is rare in resi and CH-CH even more so. Then Leviton comes along with an odd duck and they expect it to take over? I don't see it lasting another year.


----------



## HackWork

CH-CH has been used a lot around here, but in old installations. I don't see many newer installations of it. Maybe it was cheaper a couple decades ago.


----------



## JoeSparky

GE is Peter D's new favorite panel brand


----------



## MTW

HackWork said:


> CH-CH has been used a lot around here, but in old installations. I don't see many newer installations of it. Maybe it was cheaper a couple decades ago.


Eye sea.


----------



## MTW

JoeSparky said:


> GE is Peter D's new favorite panel brand


:yes::yes::yes::yes:

AFCI's without GFPE for $11 :thumbup:


----------



## HackWork

MTW said:


> Eye sea.


What was the point?


----------



## wcord

Around here Homeline seems to be the panel of the day


----------



## HackWork

wcord said:


> Around here Homeline seems to be the panel of the day


You don't say?


----------

