# Wrong panel installed



## The_Modifier (Oct 24, 2009)

WronGun said:


> Long story short .... I recently did a larger service with 2 other guys.... the wrong panel was installed due to poor communication! 100 to 200 Amp upgrade and no Main breaker or disconnect anywhere ! A load center was installed , Ouch .... anyways , what would you do replace the whole panel or add a Main breaker disconnect.... a stupid mistake !! Very stupid , still not over it ....
> 
> The easier fix is simply just to pop a Disconnect right next to the panel and swing the SEU to the disco and come back in with SER....
> 
> ...


Just turn is sideways like we do here in Canada. :thumbup::laughing:


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

The_Modifier said:


> Just turn is sideways like we do here in Canada. :thumbup::laughing:




Not sure what that means ? Lol


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## The_Modifier (Oct 24, 2009)

WronGun said:


> Not sure what that means ? Lol
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


See? Now you didn't even notice the breaker size- presentation is everything. LOL.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

How would this solve my problem ?


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## BlueOval5272 (Jul 25, 2015)

If it is a Square D and I'm not mistaken, can't the lugs be taken out and a main bolted in?

If I'm wrong then I think the easiest and simplest fix it to add a disconnect then feed the panel from there


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## The_Modifier (Oct 24, 2009)

WronGun said:


> How would this solve my problem ?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It doesn't. 
But your solution in your OP is the way that we would go about correcting it. :thumbup:

It will bug you for a bit, but you win some/ you loose some.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

It's a Murray cheapo panel , but luckily I jus found a 200amp conversion Murray breaker for a Murray load center !! Problem solved ! Yessss


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

WronGun said:


> It's a Murray cheapo panel , but luckily I jus found a 200amp conversion Murray breaker for a Murray load center !! Problem solved ! Yessss
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Put a disco outside near the meter. Make it 100% safer!


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

WronGun said:


> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Answered your own question!


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Answered your own question!




Can I thank myself on this forum ?[emoji848]


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

WronGun said:


> Can I thank myself on this forum ?[emoji848]
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Not that I know of! 

A special thanks goes out to WronGun for solving his own self inflicted injury!


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Geez WronGun, you keep doing this lol. Stop rushing thru services and plan them out better :laughing:


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## electricguy (Mar 22, 2007)

Here the panel would have to be rated as Service Equipment


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

electricguy said:


> Here the panel would have to be rated as Service Equipment


Here too. Any MLO panel that will accept a main breaker will say it's SUSE.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

The_Modifier said:


> See? Now you didn't even notice the breaker size- presentation is everything. LOL.


I've seen a few comments over the last couple of months about turning a panel sideways like in that picture. The problem in the States with that is we have a section (240.81) that tells us if the breaker is operating in the vertical, then the "up" position must be the "on" position. That means that all those breakers on the top of that sideways panel are not installed code compliant compliant because the "up" position would be "off", not "on".


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

hardworkingstiff said:


> I've seen a few comments over the last couple of months about turning a panel sideways like in that picture. The problem in the States with that is we have a section (240.81) that tells us if the breaker is operating in the vertical, then the "up" position must be the "on" position. That means that all those breakers on the top of that sideways panel are not installed code compliant compliant because the "up" position would be "off", not "on".


That code is going to change for you guys. Your next code cycle from what I hear. It is a dumb code in my opinion. What is it's purpose? Gravity going to turn your circuits off? Haha

So Canadian style service panels are coming your way soon. They have a barrier around the service conductors and you can no longer enter the panel from the top with other circuits.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

eddy current said:


> That code is going to change for you guys. Your next code cycle from what I hear. It is a dumb code in my opinion. What is it's purpose? Gravity going to turn your circuits off? Haha
> 
> So Canadian style service panels are coming your way soon. They have a barrier around the service conductors and you can no longer enter the panel from the top with other circuits.


I will fight that tooth and nail!!
If it does happen I will go to an outside disco or meter main and make the inside a subpanel so I don't need that idiotic joke of a requirement.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I don't think it's gonna happen. Americans are so much better at electricianing than Canadians, we don't need those stupid barriers.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

HackWork said:


> I don't think it's gonna happen. Americans are so much better at electricianing than Canadians, we don't need those stupid barriers.


Man they do love their codes and regulations though.


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## matt1124 (Aug 23, 2011)

The_Modifier said:


> See? Now you didn't even notice the breaker size- presentation is everything. LOL.


I showed this to an apprentice the other day. He said "Oh! I always wondered why the sides are full of KOs when they are just going to be up against a stud!" :laughing::laughing:


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

HackWork said:


> I don't think it's gonna happen. Americans are so much better at electricianing than Canadians, we don't need those stupid barriers.


Most of us down here aren't standing on snow or ice 9-10 months out of the year!


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## glen1971 (Oct 10, 2012)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Most of us down here aren't standing on snow or ice 9-10 months out of the year!


2 weeks ago - 3' to 4' of fresh snow.. This week temps are above zero and most of the snow is gone...


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

glen1971 said:


> 2 weeks ago - 3' to 4' of fresh snow.. This week temps are above zero and most of the snow is gone...


Better you than me brother!


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

sbrn33 said:


> I will fight that tooth and nail!!
> If it does happen I will go to an outside disco or meter main and make the inside a subpanel so I don't need that idiotic joke of a requirement.


What about the idiotic joke of a requirement that says you can't mount panels sideways? :laughing:


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

eddy current said:


> What about the idiotic joke of a requirement that says you can't mount panels sideways? :laughing:


That does not affect me as I would never do it. nothing worse than wiring all coming in the side of a panel.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

sbrn33 said:


> That does not affect me as I would never do it. nothing worse than wiring all coming in the side of a panel.


When does your area adopt the 2017 NEC cause it is in there. 408.3(A)(2). Panel manufacturers are making them now so I bet you wont have a choice soon. Not many options left when you can't come in the top of the panel :thumbsup:

https://www.downloads.siemens.com/download-center/Download.aspx?pos=download&fct=getasset&id1=BTLV_46859


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

eddy current said:


> What about the idiotic joke of a requirement that says you can't mount panels sideways? :laughing:


That one makes complete sense to many of us.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

MechanicalDVR said:


> That one makes complete sense to many of us.


Explain please

Actually, can you give me the code reference? I would like to read it myself.


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## PlugsAndLights (Jan 19, 2016)

eddy current said:


> When does your area adopt the 2017 NEC cause it is in there. 408.3(A)(2). Panel manufacturers are making them now so I bet you wont have a choice soon. Not many options left when you can't come in the top of the panel :thumbsup:
> 
> https://www.downloads.siemens.com/d...aspx?pos=download&fct=getasset&id1=BTLV_46859


I don't consider panels to have a top or bottom. Not until they're 
installed anyways. Everyone mounts them with the main at the 
bottom when the feed is coming up through the slab, don't they? 
P&L


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## B-Nabs (Jun 4, 2014)

I've never seen a sideways panel in person. However around here it seems it is most common to have the main at the bottom, so coming in the top with your branch circuits is no problem.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

eddy current said:


> Explain please
> 
> Actually, can you give me the code reference? I would like to read it myself.


I'm no code guru but I'm sure one of the guys that is will refer you to the section that says the main must be in a vertical operating position.

The rest of us just think it looks like hell and makes no sense!


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## B-Nabs (Jun 4, 2014)

PlugsAndLights said:


> I don't consider panels to have a top or bottom. Not until they're
> installed anyways. Everyone mounts them with the main at the
> bottom when the feed is coming up through the slab, don't they?
> P&L


I think we just posted at the same time. It appears I can't like your post.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

PlugsAndLights said:


> I don't consider panels to have a top or bottom. Not until they're
> installed anyways. Everyone mounts them with the main at the
> bottom when the feed is coming up through the slab, don't they?
> P&L


Ok, not always the "top". 

With this new code, There is one side of the panel you can't use out of 4, depending on how you orient the panel, that side might be the top.

Better?


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

PlugsAndLights said:


> I don't consider panels to have a top or bottom. Not until they're installed anyways. Everyone mounts them with the main at the bottom when the feed is coming up through the slab, don't they?
> P&L





B-Nabs said:


> I've never seen a sideways panel in person. However around here it seems it is most common to have the main at the bottom, so coming in the top with your branch circuits is no problem.



You guys are too much "main at the bottom", seems this side of the border the main is most often found on top.


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## B-Nabs (Jun 4, 2014)

MechanicalDVR said:


> You guys are too much "main at the bottom", seems this side of the border the main is most often found on top.


I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that's another sexual reference.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

B-Nabs said:


> I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that's another sexual reference.


Eww , panels make you think of things like that....you need to get out more! 


Canadians! :jester:


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## PlugsAndLights (Jan 19, 2016)

MechanicalDVR said:


> You guys are too much "main at the bottom", seems this side of the border the main is most often found on top.


I like to have the feed under the slab when I can, but more often 
the feed comes through the joist space above the panel. In this 
case, we're no longer allowed to 90 down into the panel directly. 
This is due to moisture coming down the pipe and running down 
all the gear. We now have to come down the side of the panel and 
LB or 90 in*. In this case I'll have the main at the top unless 
there's something in the way.
*also have to "drain and seal appropriately" 
P&L


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

MechanicalDVR said:


> I'm no code guru but I'm sure one of the guys that is will refer you to the section that says the main must be in a vertical operating position.
> 
> The rest of us just think it looks like hell and makes no sense!


So the reason it "makes complete sense to many of us" is you think it looks like hell?

I'm sure if you let the NEC know about how you feel, they will change the code.


LOL. :jester:


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

eddy current said:


> So the reason it "makes complete sense to many of us" is you think it looks like hell?
> 
> I'm sure if you let the NEC know about how you feel, they will change the code.
> 
> ...


They are completely insensitive to the likes of people actually installing and maintaining equipment or they never would be so into AFCIs.:001_unsure:


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

PlugsAndLights said:


> I like to have the feed under the slab when I can, but more often
> the feed comes through the joist space above the panel. In this
> case, we're no longer allowed to 90 down into the panel directly.
> This is due to moisture coming down the pipe and running down
> ...


Hmm, interesting. For the number of panels I've seen that have running water in them that is a good consideration and makes sense.


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## PlugsAndLights (Jan 19, 2016)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Hmm, interesting. For the number of panels I've seen that have running water in them that is a good consideration and makes sense.


Likely even more so in our cold climate where condensation is a 
natural result.
P&L


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

eddy current said:


> When does your area adopt the 2017 NEC cause it is in there. 408.3(A)(2). Panel manufacturers are making them now so I bet you wont have a choice soon. Not many options left when you can't come in the top of the panel :thumbsup:
> 
> https://www.downloads.siemens.com/download-center/Download.aspx?pos=download&fct=getasset&id1=BTLV_46859


The new requirements are just barriers around the lugs. It, as far as I can tell, doesn't prevent wiring from entering the same space as the service entrance conductors.


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## Byte (Oct 3, 2016)

sbrn33 said:


> I will fight that tooth and nail!!
> If it does happen I will go to an outside disco or meter main and make the inside a subpanel so I don't need that idiotic joke of a requirement.


Those "idiotic" barriers make it safe to add ccts to the panel. You just turn off the main, take cover off and are good to go. How is that "idiotic"?








How do you add ctts as shown here? Where do you lockout the panel as required?


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

RePhase277 said:


> The new requirements are just barriers around the lugs. It, as far as I can tell, doesn't prevent wiring from entering the same space as the service entrance conductors.


It does actually. Once energized, if you remove the barrier, you are exposing the live lugs. They want that area protected which will prevent electricians from running wires in there. The barrier also blocks wiring from entering, not just the main lugs.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Byte said:


> Those "idiotic" barriers make it safe to add ccts to the panel. You just turn off the main, take cover off and are good to go. How is that "idiotic"?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


We do this every single day. I put a romex connector in the top run my romex through it. Strip it terminate it and go on with my day. It is called being an electrician. If I am worried at all I will pull the meter.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

sbrn33 said:


> We do this every single day. I put a romex connector in the top run my romex through it. Strip it terminate it and go on with my day. It is called being an electrician. If I am worried at all I will pull the meter.


So not following safety codes makes you more of an electrician?

Dude, we (Canadian electricians) are not saying we are not able to do this due to our lack of knowledge. IT IS CODE!!!

Has nothing to do with our skills. Being an electrician also means you follow codes.

Also we are not allowed to pull the meter.


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## Byte (Oct 3, 2016)

sbrn33 said:


> We do this every single day. I put a romex connector in the top run my romex through it. Strip it terminate it and go on with my day. It is called being an electrician. If I am worried at all I will pull the meter.


It's called not caring for safety. Pull the meter and expose live lugs outdoors? Wow, you are not correct. 
All I want to do is work safe, not cause a short or fire, and not get sued for not thinking.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

eddy current said:


> So not following safety codes makes you more of an electrician?
> 
> Dude, we (Canadian electricians) are not saying we are not able to do this due to our lack of knowledge. IT IS CODE!!!
> 
> ...


No need to get all defensive. We have a much different set of codes here. 

Down this side of the border "*How do you add ctts as shown here?*" seems like a very stupid question.


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## Byte (Oct 3, 2016)

BTW, you do not need barriers on sub panels. They are controlled from the main panel.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Byte said:


> BTW, you do not need barriers on sub panels. They are controlled from the main panel.


*Making them 100% safer!* :thumbsup:


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## PlugsAndLights (Jan 19, 2016)

sbrn33 said:


> We do this every single day. I put a romex connector in the top run my romex through it. Strip it terminate it and go on with my day. It is called being an electrician. If I am worried at all I will pull the meter.


I wouldn't find that to be a big deal either. But then, I also don't find 
it a big deal to work around our dedicated entrance area. 
Expect electricians up here balked against the new combined panels 
when they were brought in 40 or 50 yrs ago. Now those guys are 
dead and nobody cares. Same thing will happen if they're brought in 
down there. 
P&L


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## Byte (Oct 3, 2016)

MechanicalDVR said:


> No need to get all defensive. We have a much different set of codes here.
> 
> Down this side of the border "*How do you add ctts as shown here?*" seems like a very stupid question.


so, how would you add ctts here? From the top? What if you pulled in your NMSC and stripped it and the ground touched the bus? Could happen and that would make you and your company look bad.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Byte said:


> so, how would you add ctts here? *From the top? * What if you pulled in your NMSC and stripped it and the ground touched the bus? Could happen and that would make you and your company look bad.


People (including homeowners, maintenance men, and a handy hosuewife or two) add circuits thousands of times a day down here just that way and it hasn't been a problem yet. 

I'm yet to read a headline in the news "electrician hurt while adding a circuit to an existing panel"!:whistling2:


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## Byte (Oct 3, 2016)

MechanicalDVR said:


> People (including homeowners, maintenance men, and a handy hosuewife or two) add circuits thousands of times a day down here just that way and it hasn't been a problem yet.
> 
> I'm yet to read a headline in the news "electrician hurt while adding a circuit to an existing panel"!:whistling2:


Do what you want, I choose to be safe and not go looking for trouble. The Americans are going to love those service barriers.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Byte said:


> Do what you want, I choose to be safe and not go looking for trouble.


*We do, it's the American spirit! *

*It isn't a requirement here 'yet' so no need to sweat it or get your panties in a bunch.* :thumbsup:

*Never sweat the small stuff, life is too short to be looking for crap all the time!

*


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## PlugsAndLights (Jan 19, 2016)

Byte said:


> so, how would you add ctts here? From the top? What if you pulled in your NMSC and stripped it and the ground touched the bus? Could happen and that would make you and your company look bad.


I suspect you've spent your career in highly safety driven workplaces
ie big installations. Service work and renos are a different world.
P&L


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## Byte (Oct 3, 2016)

MechanicalDVR said:


> *We do, it's the American spirit! *
> 
> *It isn't a requirement here 'yet' so no need to sweat it or get your panties in a bunch.* :thumbsup:
> 
> ...


My panties are not in a bunch, and why are you so angry with the bold font?
I merely commented on how I work safe and don't give a rats ass about your input. Have a great day and be safe...not so bad is it?


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Byte said:


> My panties are not in a bunch, and why are you so angry with the bold font?
> I merely commented on how I work safe and don't give a rats ass about your input. Have a great day and be safe...not so bad is it?


*Bold, gets a point across!*

*I'm not angry in the slightest.
*


*Bold makes it easier to see for us old half blind guys!*


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## Byte (Oct 3, 2016)

MechanicalDVR said:


> *Bold, gets a point across!*
> 
> *I'm not angry in the slightest.
> *
> ...


OK, thanks...point well taken.
Yes, most of my experience has been on large oil and gas plants. Nothing was done energized unless full arc flash gear was used, doors red taped, safety watch, and a guy holding a rope fastened to your harness. Ironically, my early years was all hot work in communications. Not much work anymore...it's boring sitting at home. Maybe I will check overseas and get away from the wife


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Byte said:


> OK, thanks...point well taken.
> Yes, most of my experience has been on large oil and gas plants. Nothing was done energized unless full arc flash gear was used, doors red taped, safety watch, and a guy holding a rope fastened to your harness. Ironically, my early years was all hot work in communications. Not much work anymore...it's boring sitting at home. Maybe I will check overseas and get away from the wife


Awesome!

I can understand those safety needs where an arc could cause a huge problem/disaster as everyone should. 

Just not a big problem in most locations.


Wish you luck in finding work. 

Ever applied to companies that do oil rig work?


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## Byte (Oct 3, 2016)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Awesome!
> 
> I can understand those safety needs where an arc could cause a huge problem/disaster as everyone should.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the tip


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Byte said:


> Thanks for the tip


Welcome brother!

Also, are there any ship yards that do retrofits and repairs up that way?

There has to be places where an older experienced guy would fit right in.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

MechanicalDVR said:


> No need to get all defensive. We have a much different set of codes here.
> 
> Down this side of the border "*How do you add ctts as shown here?*" seems like a very stupid question.


Not being defensive. Just pointing out that your codes are changing. Have changed all ready actually. I'm sure you guys will adapt to our "sideways" panels in no time. :thumbsup:


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

eddy current said:


> Not being defensive. Just pointing out that your codes are changing. Have changed all ready actually. I'm sure you guys will adapt to our *"sideways" panels *in no time. :thumbsup:


*NEVER!*


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

eddy current said:


> It does actually. Once energized, if you remove the barrier, you are exposing the live lugs. They want that area protected which will prevent electricians from running wires in there. The barrier also blocks wiring from entering, not just the main lugs.


Maybe on Canadian panels, but all the pics I've seen of the new NEC-compliant panels don't show a compartment, just lug covers. Here's a screen capture from the link posted above:


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## Byte (Oct 3, 2016)

RePhase277 said:


> Maybe on Canadian panels, but all the pics I've seen of the new NEC-compliant panels don't show a compartment, just lug covers. Here's a screen capture from the link posted above:


Just goes to show how American ingenuity can eliminate a large heavy barrier and just make the lugs safe. I like that way better than the Canadian one.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Byte said:


> Just goes to show how American ingenuity can eliminate a large heavy barrier and just make the lugs safe. I like that way better than the Canadian one.


Of course, we are innovators from way back! 1776 baby!!!!


*Hey go check out the @Byte thread!*


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## scotch (Oct 17, 2013)

Wait until they harmonise the codes with Mexico !...that's the direction for North america we've been told . From what I've seen at the resorts turning panels sideways around is nothing !


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I just installed a Siemens panel today that had cops over the lugs. These caps fall off very easily, a piece of #14 being shaped into the panel would take it right off.











byte, let me know if this post is OK or if you are going to have Dennis deleted it.


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## Byte (Oct 3, 2016)

scotch said:


> Wait until they harmonise the codes with Mexico !...that's the direction for North america we've been told . From what I've seen at the resorts turning panels sideways around is nothing !


Where do you think our panels and switchgear are made? Mexico


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## Byte (Oct 3, 2016)

HackWork said:


> I just installed a Siemens panel today that had cops over the lugs. These caps fall off very easily, a piece of #14 being shaped into the panel would take it right off.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You would think that those boots would be made to stay on. Maybe use the same type of boot as for motors, they come with baby tie-wraps.
Nice to see you back Hack


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## scotch (Oct 17, 2013)

Byte said:


> Where do you think our panels and switchgear are made? Mexico


It's not the equipment or the hanging the equipment...it's the wiring and workmanship that comes after it !


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

WronGun said:


> Long story short .... I recently did a larger service with 2 other guys.... the wrong panel was installed due to poor communication! 100 to 200 Amp upgrade and no Main breaker or disconnect anywhere ! A load center was installed , Ouch .... anyways , what would you do replace the whole panel or add a Main breaker disconnect.... a stupid mistake !! Very stupid , still not over it ....
> 
> The easier fix is simply just to pop a Disconnect right next to the panel and swing the SEU to the disco and come back in with SER....
> 
> ...


On this one, you just swap it out to the correct panel and be done with it.
It happens. It's not going to break you.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

I'm still curious how, between the 3 of you, somehow no one noticed there wasn't a main disconnect in the entire chain...


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## Byte (Oct 3, 2016)

RePhase277 said:


> I'm still curious how, between the 3 of you, somehow no one noticed there wasn't a main disconnect in the entire chain...


I have been the one to not lockout a 2000A breaker at an industrial site. Five company reps asked why I would not lock it out and I asked, "Why would we lockout the breaker in the on position?" It is easy to miss things and I am glad that I fixed what could have been death to some poor guy.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

Easy peasy 


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

That breaker came with lug protection.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

Yes it did , what an easy save ! 


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Any pics of other brands yet?


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