# Minimalist Layout



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Why would you want Panduit in something that small? It’s fine. If you want to make it pretty, that’s what cable ties and sticky backs are for.

I didn’t vote because it’s fine once you close the lid.


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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

The only thing I would do different is tb's and jumpers for the 120v. Rather than those crimp style taps.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

I would flip relay 4 over. 
Make the wiring cleaner and open that port up behind the bundle.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Cow said:


> The only thing I would do different is tb's and jumpers for the 120v. Rather than those crimp style taps.


I didn't want to lead the question but I was wondering if there would be any objections to those Scotchloks. 

Adding 15 terminal blocks in three groups of five would be nice but it would bump me into a slightly bigger enclosure. I have never used them, but I was thinking about doing it with these 










which would minimize the space it takes, but it's still going to come out a little longer.


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

Looks great to me, but I’m known to do loopy wiring with no numbers on the wires.:biggrin:


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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

splatz said:


> I didn't want to lead the question but I was wondering if there would be any objections to those Scotchloks.
> 
> Adding 15 terminal blocks in three groups of five would be nice but it would bump me into a slightly bigger enclosure. I have never used them, but I was thinking about doing it with these
> 
> ...


You could do 3 groups of 3 tb's and come off the top also, and follow some of those wires to the right of the power supplies back down to the bottom.

I'm not a fan of double stabbing tb's if I can help it.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I guess the only thing I'd wonder about is the the Scotch loks. I don't build panels, though i've built a few enclosures with a handful of load shedding relays in them.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

nrp3 said:


> I guess the only thing I'd wonder about is the the Scotch loks. I don't build panels, though i've built a few enclosures with a handful of load shedding relays in them.


I like them, easy to use and they also make shorting bars to use between the horizontal terminals. Even if one melts or is damaged they are easy to swap out.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Cow said:


> You could do 3 groups of 3 tb's and come off the top also, and follow some of those wires to the right of the power supplies back down to the bottom.


I'd like to keep the line voltage wires off by themselves in the corner away from the low voltage wires. So I'd put the terminal blocks for the line voltage supply off to the left of the power supplies. 

The last time I did these I ran the three wires to each power supply out a nipple to a box on the side of the enclosure and spliced the line voltage supply in there, just regular wire nuts. That really isn't bad but I thought I'd get rid of the sidecar.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

Cow said:


> The only thing I would do different is tb's and jumpers for the 120v. Rather than those crimp style taps.


The color coded wire negates the need for numbers in this particular panel, IMHO. Another vote for short jumpers on the 120V. Other than that, I like it:vs_cool:


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

Looks good to me.
Agree with Wirenutting on relay #4 , it also looks like there is an ethernet port on it, the wires are in the way.

Wire**** apart from that :biggrin:


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## CMP (Oct 30, 2019)

*Scotchlok IDC ban*

Those Scotchlok's, make it look like a car stereo installer did it.


If you want to eliminate those and terminal blocks to replace them, I would use a single piece of wire, strip intermittent sections for the terminal clamps, with my ideal stripmaster's. Place the single conductor under the clamps and tighten.


If you need to replace a power supply, you could easily remove all the pressure plate screws and wiring bus to replace a module. At 1.5A each, that should not be a problem. And you would have one wire per terminal.


Just a thought to save space, and keep it serviceable.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

CMP said:


> Those Scotchlok's, make it look like a car stereo installer did it.
> 
> If you want to eliminate those and terminal blocks to replace them, I would use a single piece of wire, strip intermittent sections for the terminal clamps, with my ideal stripmaster's. Place the single conductor under the clamps and tighten.
> 
> If you need to replace a power supply, you could easily remove all the pressure plate screws and wiring bus to replace a module. At 1.5A each, that should not be a problem. And you would have one wire per terminal.


I thought about that but I just know someone at some time, maybe me, will lose one of the screws and have a headache on their hands. Then they will wish a car stereo installer did it instead of me. 

Even if stripped the wire every 6", so you have a nice loop between, you'd have to take three screws all the way out to remove a power supply. (Well three of the four...) 

I think these type of terminals are rated for two wires (one on either side of the screw) as long as they are the same gauge, so jumpers from one to the next would be OK. Or I guess I could use two forks per terminal, one on either side. 
One bad connection brings down the whole mess but I'd prefer that, it would still be easy to work on. 

I am not sure I mind the scotchloks that much...


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)




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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

The answer is always Lever Nuts.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

HackWork said:


> The answer is always Lever Nuts.
> 
> View attachment 142780


That's a good idea! 

One 5-wire lever nut for L, N, and G, two DIN rail holder, done. Quicker and cheaper than the terminal blocks. 

If these power supplies ground themselves through their DIN rail mount, I could even get by with two lever nuts and one DIN rail holder. 

:thumbsup:


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Holy pow, this must be my lucky day. 

I was having a trouble finding the lever nuts, the din carrier, and the strain relief in stock on Amazon, I did a search and turned up 

https://usac123.com/ 

Good prices, in stock, they take Paypal, and they answer the phone. 

https://usac123.com/221-415-k194-4045-000-100.html 

225 of the 5-port for $105.11 - that's about as cheap as you're going to get these...



HackWork said:


> The answer is always Lever Nuts.
> 
> View attachment 142780


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## Helmut (May 7, 2014)

It's hard to believe the one ty-wrap has 6 wires there.
The one on the right looks like 5 red wires, but I only see 3 terminal blocks.

My eyes must be wacky....

Bottom right of picture.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

splatz said:


> Holy pow, this must be my lucky day.
> 
> I was having a trouble finding the lever nuts, the din carrier, and the strain relief in stock on Amazon, I did a search and turned up
> 
> ...


Here is where I first bought the Lever Nuts before I found them cheaper on Amazon: https://www.onlineelec.com/parts/wago/push-wire-connector/

The price you found them for is very good. But 225 is a lot fo them, I don't use 5 port often at all.

I still want a 4 port in a square configuration, I think that would be perfect. It would be the same size as a typical wirenut.


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## Superman (Mar 19, 2019)

it looks fine.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Helmut said:


> It's hard to believe the one ty-wrap has 6 wires there.
> The one on the right looks like 5 red wires, but I only see 3 terminal blocks.
> 
> My eyes must be wacky....
> ...


There are four pairs of terminal blocks to the right of the relay module, four red and four black, but you can't see the first pair due to the angle.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Well, I was going to go with @HackWork's suggestion to use Wago lever nuts with DIN rail holders, but they were hard to get a hold of right now so maybe next time. 

I decided I'll stick to the minimalist idea and go with @CMP 's method, but have not decided whether I'll do it as he described, or slightly modified. I am leaning to the pigtail loops, it's actually quicker and easier to do this way, and it is real easy to get insulation under the clamp the straight across way. It doesn't look that bad, and it would be easy to replace a power supply.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

I like both of those over the original. I think you are putting way too much emphasis on potentially having to replace a power supply, but hey, it's not my panel.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

joe-nwt said:


> I think you are putting way too much emphasis on potentially having to replace a power supply, but hey, it's not my panel.


I think the best bet is to put a lock on it and make them pay you to come back to make any changes :smile:


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## Helmut (May 7, 2014)

Why did it all have to go on one din rail?Could the fuse blocks have been turned 90 degrees and have been push up about 3".

Then flip the TB's.

You'd have one dressed harness above the din rail, and all wiring would 90 and come straight down to TB locations. 

Too late huh?


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## Helmut (May 7, 2014)

There's 6 wires in that bundle..


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Helmut said:


> View attachment 142912
> 
> 
> There's 6 wires in that bundle..


You are correct. That bundle has one red wire off each of the fuseholders, 1-4, then a red 5 from the three reds jumpered together, and a black 5 from the three blacks jumpered together. They all land on the controller's Phoenix style terminal.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Helmut said:


> Why did it all have to go on one din rail?Could the fuse blocks have been turned 90 degrees and have been push up about 3".
> 
> Then flip the TB's.
> 
> ...


That would be a nice layout. But, I am installing a bunch of these in small enclosures, 10" x 18". In some locations where they are going to have a larger enclosure in the same spot, I'll take the rail out in one piece and install it inside the larger enclosure. I might even have more than one in some of the bigger enclosures. Kind of a modular setup.


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## Helmut (May 7, 2014)

splatz said:


> That would be a nice layout. But, I am installing a bunch of these in small enclosures, 10" x 18". In some locations where they are going to have a larger enclosure in the same spot, I'll take the rail out in one piece and install it inside the larger enclosure. I might even have more than one in some of the bigger enclosures. Kind of a modular setup.


Oh, I just assumed you had the back plane for the enclosure at your shop.

Needs wire numbers at the least.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

Helmut said:


> Oh, I just assumed you had the back plane for the enclosure at your shop.
> 
> Needs wire numbers at the least.


Red #12 = positive
Black #12 = negative

Black #14 = 120VAC L1
White #14 = neutral
Green #14 = ground

Nimbers, shmumbers. Not needed in this case.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Helmut said:


> Oh, I just assumed you had the back plane for the enclosure at your shop.
> 
> Needs wire numbers at the least.





joe-nwt said:


> Red #12 = positive
> Black #12 = negative
> 
> Black #14 = 120VAC L1
> ...


I thought about it but this is so small and straightforward I think just numbering the components will be OK without numbering the wires.


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

HackWork said:


> The answer is always Lever Nuts.
> 
> View attachment 142780


You sold me on lever nuts. Where can you get the din rail holder for the lever nuts?


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## Mbit (Feb 28, 2020)

Ditch the taps or at least use lever nuts IMHO.


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## MotoGP1199 (Aug 11, 2014)

Easy said:


> You sold me on lever nuts. Where can you get the din rail holder for the lever nuts?


I started using these and they are great. I put two 221 wagos that hold 5 wires in one carrier and use it as a distribution block from my power supply to go to different I/O's. Wago actually sent me a free sample.

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B07346HP47/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Free Sample
https://www.wago.com/us/lp-221

Keep in mind the sample took over a month to come.
.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

Wire numbers and a drawing (with all external connected devices) no matter how simple it is. But other than that I think its just fine.

Just remember. There is always someone behind you that did not wire this up.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Anything but schotchlocks, nothing good comes from schotchlocks.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

I voted " Are you even an electrician" simply on behalf of those blue "whizby" insulation piercing connectors. I've seen too many of those turn into crispy critters under load. Unlike the big black ones with a bolt that you tighten down, which are pretty good- Insuleators. But those type are for- somebody mentioned it I think- car stereo installers........ .......


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

And trailer people.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Jlarson said:


> Anything but schotchlocks, nothing good comes from schotchlocks.





macmikeman said:


> I voted " Are you even an electrician" simply on behalf of those blue "whizby" insulation piercing connectors. I've seen too many of those turn into crispy critters under load. Unlike the big black ones with a bolt that you tighten down, which are pretty good- Insuleators. But those type are for- somebody mentioned it I think- car stereo installers........ .......


I wound up going with the little curly-cue pigtails between the power supplies, only because it was just too slow / difficult to get the DIN mounts for the Lever-nuts, which pisses me off. 

But back to the Scotchloks. I am still interested in hearing more specifics on people's experience using them for power. I have nothing to draw on, I haven't heard or seen of them used very much. Occasionally they would be very, very handy way to solve a problem. Tell us more, how bad are they? 

I am just trying to separate 

"I don't like them because I associate them with hacks" 

from 

"I have seen these fail when used"


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Jlarson said:


> Anything but schotchlocks, nothing good comes from schotchlocks.


I always thought that, until I used them. They worked great and every time I go into that mall I can see the 6 150' strips of cove lights still working with the Scotchlock taps I installed 15 years ago.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

splatz said:


> But back to the Scotchloks. I am still interested in hearing more specifics on people's experience using them for power. I have nothing to draw on, I haven't heard or seen of them used very much. Occasionally they would be very, very handy way to solve a problem. Tell us more, how bad are they?
> 
> I am just trying to separate
> 
> ...


You need to install them correctly, which takes a little finesse that I know you will understand.

First you have to make sure that the metal piece is lined up perfectly. The plastic should do that, but it might not. You need the metal piece to slide around the conductor instead of cutting into it. Second, you need to use something with parallel jaws. Lineman pliers don't work well because the jaws are on an angle to each other. I used channel locks which I set so that the jaws were parallel to each other about halfway thru the motion of pressing the metal piece down. The Knipex pliers wrench would be perfect for this since they stay parallel the entire motion, but they aren't necessary.

The Scotchlock taps are great when coupling long strips of lights together like with cove lighting that I mentioned in my above post. Just pull a set of conductors down thru all of the lights, then use the brown Scotchlocks to connect the #12 to the fixture wiring. No breaking the wiring and splicing. 

They also work well when you want to tap into power in a box in which the existing wiring is short and you don't want to take the existing splices apart.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

I see them get brittle and crack over time and the contact works loose, probably partly due to heat and environmental conditions.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Not gonna lie though I've used them in fixtures before like hax, with electronic ballasts and leds I figured they'd be fine in there since they won't be moving around either.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

HackWork said:


> *You need to install them correctly*, which takes a little finesse that I know you will understand.
> 
> First you have to make sure that the metal piece is lined up perfectly. The plastic should do that, but it might not. You need the metal piece to slide around the conductor instead of cutting into it. Second, you need to use something with parallel jaws. Lineman pliers don't work well because the jaws are on an angle to each other. I used channel locks which I set so that the jaws were parallel to each other about halfway thru the motion of pressing the metal piece down. The Knipex pliers wrench would be perfect for this since they stay parallel the entire motion, but they aren't necessary.


I have noticed this, you just can't gorilla these. If they're going on right, they don't take much of a squeeze. You have to make sure the jaw of the pliers isn't pushing on one of the corners of the metal bit. 



> The Scotchlock taps are great when coupling long strips of lights together like with cove lighting that I mentioned in my above post. Just pull a set of conductors down thru all of the lights, then use the brown Scotchlocks to connect the #12 to the fixture wiring. No breaking the wiring and splicing.
> 
> They also work well when you want to tap into power in a box in which the existing wiring is short and you don't want to take the existing splices apart.


These two things make them a really useful thing, you can basically run a single set of wires and tap them like a bus. It's very fast and neat. 

I crimped a few yesterday and took them apart to see what kind of connection you're really getting. That little metal bit is really all the marbles, you are counting on that thing to remain springy over the years and keep in contact with the wires. I would not use an off brand of any sort with these, I'd only use the 3M.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

My biggest worry is them cutting into the wire. But these are used way more often for smaller gauge and smaller strand automotive wiring and there doesn't seem to be an issue.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

HackWork said:


> My biggest worry is them cutting into the wire. But these are used way more often for smaller gauge and smaller strand automotive wiring and there doesn't seem to be an issue.



Now I would think it would be more of an issue with solid wire than stranded, because once you start a nick it could crack all the way across. With stranded wire, it's more likely to much around, and if it does cut a strand or two, it's still OK, the crack isn't going to spread. 



Then again the IDC connections on category 5e / 6 jacks and 110 blocks are similar and working on a single strand. The 66 style punchdown blocks are even more similar on solid wires. (In fact they don't really work on stranded wire.) The load is incredibly small, but it's probably very sensitive to a bad connection.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

splatz said:


> Now I would think it would be more of an issue with solid wire than stranded, because once you start a nick it could crack all the way across. With stranded wire, it's more likely to much around, and if it does cut a strand or two, it's still OK, the crack isn't going to spread.


 I have only used stranded THHN, never even seen solid in real life. 

My point was more along the lines of larger wire not being cut as easily as smaller wire, especially that thin strand automotive stuff that you can bite thru (don't ask how I know:surprise.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

HackWork said:


> I have only used stranded THHN, never even seen solid in real life.
> 
> My point was more along the lines of larger wire not being cut as easily as smaller wire, especially that thin strand automotive stuff that you can bite thru (don't ask how I know:surprise.


I was thinking about solid wire when extending the little stubs I deal with in old old work, but I do have some of this 

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Southwi...lPAK-SIMpull-THHN-Tri-Wire-58389703/205476090 

I got it cheap. I don't know if I'll buy more but it does push well, kind of nice.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

splatz said:


> I was thinking about solid wire when extending the little stubs I deal with in old old work


 For extending short stubs I have been using Levernuts for years now. You can easily clip it onto the shortest wire in the back of the box. The 3M Scotchlok taps work when there is a bundled up splice that you don't want to touch. You just clip it onto one of the wires.


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

Cow said:


> The only thing I would do different is tb's and jumpers for the 120v. Rather than those crimp style taps.


I thought the same thing at FIRST. But it looks to be a 4 channel redundant power supply setup. If it were run to a terminal strip first you could lose the connection to feeder or jumpers to the strip and lose all 4 power supply's. The way he has it the feed wire ties into all power supplies less chance of all failing.

Looks odd but may be the best choice for that application.


Cowboy


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