# Pros and cons of joining the union



## Electriclady1

Hello, 
I am a 4th year apprentice and a friend suggested that I look into joining the union. I currenlty work for a private company at the moment and would like to find out about my options.Can anyone tell me the pros and cons of joining the union? Please be as honest as possible. Thank you


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## sparky970

You should just scroll through a few pages in this topic


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## Electriclady1

Okay I will do that. But would still appreciate feedback.


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## JeffG

Excellent training, healthcare and retirement benefits are some nice pros. Compared to non-union, sometimes our hourly compensation is superior in addition to the aforementioned benefits. Additionally, if work dries up with your employer and you're an apprentice, your training director can usually place you with another EC quickly in order to keep you working. Your current employer might only have the option of letting you go if their work dries up.


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## Voltron

Electriclady1 said:


> Hello,
> I am a 4th year apprentice and a friend suggested that I look into joining the union. I currenlty work for a private company at the moment and would like to find out about my options.Can anyone tell me the pros and cons of joining the union? Please be as honest as possible. Thank you


It's definitely not a bad move for the long run, but be prepared to more than likely start over with your apprenticeship. If you can get past the pride aspect, you will only become a better electrician.


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## Electriclady1

I have less than a month before I complete my 4th year of classes and then I will take the journeyman's exam if I were to join the union it wouldn't be until after all that.
Right now I simply want to obtain all the information I can.


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## eejack

Electriclady1 said:


> I have less than a month before I complete my 4th year of classes and then I will take the journeyman's exam if I were to join the union it wouldn't be until after all that.
> Right now I simply want to obtain all the information I can.


Chances are very good you would not be accepted into the union as a journeyman. Typically you need to serve out some apprenticeship with the local.

Pros - better pay, benefits, conditions, training

Cons - less stability ( more layoffs ), more rules to follow, your non union experience is usually disregarded, folks who do not serve a full apprenticeship usually have a difficult time adjusting.


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## daveEM

eejack said:


> Chances are very good you would not be accepted into the union as a journeyman. Typically you need to serve out some apprenticeship with the local.


Interesting. I thought Union guys always wanted to sign up shops.


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## eejack

daveEM said:


> Interesting. I thought Union guys always wanted to sign up shops.


Shops have customers and contracts, which are attractive to a hiring hall.


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## Southeast Power

If you can get in, the advantages are live changing.
I did it when I was second year. I was permitted to Clep first year, repeated second year. I'm kinda glad I did. The difference in education standards is considerable.
The guys I worked with when I was non-Union are in much worse shape than I am carreer and finance wise.
For me, it was a good opportunity.


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## hardworkingstiff

IMO, the only reason to not go union is if you excel at everything you do. If you are consistently the best guy on the job, then you might be able to hook up with a small diversified EC that lets you move up in the company, all the way up that you learn the ins and outs of the business side of being an EC. You then will have learned one of the most important parts of being an EC, the business side.

If you don't have any desire to become an EC, then I believe the union is most likely a better choice.


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## chicken steve

Were i younger and w/o family i would trade my masters for an apprenticed position vs. this one horse town EC gig....~CS~


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## Electriclady1

Thank you so much for your feedback. I feel I should point out that I am a woman. Not sure if that makes a difference. As far as going through the apprentice program again pride isn't a problem just don't know if I am willing to do 4 more years of classes.


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## HackWork

Electriclady1 said:


> Thank you so much for your feedback. I feel I should point out that I am a woman. Not sure if that makes a difference. As far as going through the apprentice program again pride isn't a problem just don't know if I am willing to do 4 more years of classes.


Classes are easy, they are a time to BS with your peers.

You'll often make more money even being put back as an apprentice. 1st year apprentices in my local make over $20/hr, full healthcare (other than dental for the first year or two), full pension credit and annuity.


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## 99cents

Interesting. Up here it's the government who decides if you're a journeyman, not the union.


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## Rollie73

eejack said:


> Chances are very good you would not be accepted into the union as a journeyman. Typically you need to serve out some apprenticeship with the local.





daveEM said:


> Interesting. I thought Union guys always wanted to sign up shops.


 
As 99 stated, things are different here in Canada. Since we have the red seal program, all apprentices are trained and educated to the same standards, therefore, the union will still accept you even if you are a JM or an apprentice. 

It's the best training program there is.:thumbsup:


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## HackWork

Down here, each state has their own requirements and in many states each individual city or county has their own requirements. 

Here in New Jersey there is no journeyman license that is actually used for anything. Just a contractor license. If you're a union member you will be a union journeyman but that doesn't apply to any city or state level requirement.


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## Basttrax

4SQUARE said:


> It's definitely not a bad move for the long run, but be prepared to more than likely start over with your apprenticeship. If you can get past the pride aspect, you will only become a better electrician.


Curious about this note. In my local (Eastern Canada) we have apprentices come in at different years from the private side, and some times will end up getting their apprenticeship in a mix of private and union work. Does how this work change from local to local, or province to province?


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## chicken steve

Rollie73 said:


> It's the best training program there is.:thumbsup:


I'm starting to think _anything _is better than 52 fiefdoms with their own set of _if and or buts_ Rollie :no:

I did, at one time, think the IAEI would provide some sort of level playing field, got involved for a few decades , only to find they are just another place to drink and patronize each other 

~CS~


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## chicken steve

Electriclady1 said:


> Thank you so much for your feedback. I feel I should point out that I am a woman. .


I feel you _shouldn't._

I'm an EC (like many here) that simply views the viability of hires as to_ ability._

sorry to be terse.....

~CS~


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## Bad Electrician

She is a female, easy in, jumps the line.

Go for local 26 in Washington DC NOT Baltimore


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## Rollie73

Basttrax said:


> Curious about this note. In my local (Eastern Canada) we have apprentices come in at different years from the private side, and some times will end up getting their apprenticeship in a mix of private and union work. Does how this work change from local to local, or province to province?


 
What local are you in?


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## Rollie73

chicken steve said:


> I'm starting to think _anything _is better than 52 fiefdoms with their own set of _if and or buts_ Rollie :no:
> 
> I did, at one time, think the IAEI would provide some sort of level playing field, got involved for a few decades , only to find they are just another place to drink and patronize each other
> 
> ~CS~


Its not without its own unique set of problems and flaws. 

For example........We need to show 8000 hrs of on the job experience but the problem is that _any_ licensed electrician can simply sign the book and credit you any number of hours. It, of course, leads to countless number of falsified and un-verified hours.

We also must have a JM sign off on numerous essential skills stating that we are capable of performing said skills to the level of a JM before we are allowed to write for our IP. The same problems apply.


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## Widestance_Politics

eejack said:


> Chances are very good you would not be accepted into the union as a journeyman. Typically you need to serve out some apprenticeship with the local.
> 
> Pros - better pay, benefits, conditions, training
> 
> Cons - less stability ( more layoffs ), more rules to follow, your non union experience is usually disregarded, folks who do not serve a full apprenticeship usually have a difficult time adjusting.



In my area the local comes knocking at your door when they see your license show up on the State records. I joined after getting my license and saw both good and bad qualities with the Union - same as when I was non-union, but without a doubt I made more money. 

Joining without having gone through their apprenticeship created some animosity between me and the 5th year apprentices.

I am now back in the non-union sector after the whole 2008 downturn and not being able to get out on anything other than a short call.

I say give it a shot...worst that can happen is you leave and go back out on your own......good luck!


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## Bad Electrician

Local 26 has work and did for the most part when the rest of the country was hurting.

If she works in Frederick MD. the scale will be more a=in the local and better bennies


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## Electriclady1

I have ability otherwise I would not still be in the field. Perhaps you are right though. I have already proven myself to those I work with and have earned a great deal of respect from them in the process.


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## Natoe5

Don't look a gift horse in the mouth if you have the chance to get in take it.Big difference in what you will learn


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## ben journeyman

If any of you electricians are struggling finding work, out here in Austin Texas we are in desperate need of electrician union or non-union, residential or commercial we need help. consider Texas.:thumbsup:


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## Electriclady1

I am truly not trying to look a gift horse in the mouth. not even sure if I would be accepted into the union. I simply wanted to obtain as much information as possible before making a decision. I am over 40 and I don't want to make a wrong choice.


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## eejack

ben journeyman said:


> If any of you electricians are struggling finding work, out here in Austin Texas we are in desperate need of electrician union or non-union, residential or commercial we need help. consider Texas.:thumbsup:


Texas is desperate for skilled labor because it acts like a third world country. If folks were paid real wages there would be no issue.


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## HackWork

eejack said:


> Texas is desperate for skilled labor because it acts like a third world country. If folks were paid real wages there would be no issue.


Agreed. The first thing I thought of when I read his post was to ask myself why somebody would want to move to Texas in order to make the same wages you could make at McDonald's anywhere else.


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## Bad Electrician

Electriclady1 said:


> I am truly not trying to look a gift horse in the mouth. not even sure if I would be accepted into the union. I simply wanted to obtain as much information as possible before making a decision. I am over 40 and I don't want to make a wrong choice.


Better money, better benefits and as a woman you would have an edge getting in. Seems a win win


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## Bad Electrician

Electriclady1 said:


> I* have ability otherwise I would not still be in the field.* Perhaps you are right though. I have already proven myself to those I work with and have earned a great deal of respect from them in the process.


Not saying you are a hack but there are plenty of crappy hacks out there making a living


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## ben journeyman

WOW,  Where did all that come from, well is 32 per hour ok considering you drive around all day doing service calls fix the contractors mistakes, as much overtime as youd like.:thumbsup:


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## ben journeyman

You guys do know that there is a residential and commercial boom in central Texas the residential market is projected to grow for at least 15 to 20 years and its NOT slowing, on a daily bases I meet alot of homebuyers from New Jersey, New York, California. But there is one thing you do need to have when doing service work a positive attitude, friendly personality and honesty.


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## pete87

ben journeyman said:


> WOW,  Where did all that come from, well is 32 per hour ok considering you drive around all day doing service calls fix the contractors mistakes, as much overtime as youd like.:thumbsup:




$32 ... Is that Tax Free ?

I hate that your Government takes your money when they should just print their own .


Pete


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## ben journeyman

Pete, if your asking if im a contractor, no im not i do pay taxes but no state taxes. Property taxes and federal. .Texas does not reciprocate when it comes to electrical licenses with California.


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## eejack

ben journeyman said:


> WOW,  Where did all that come from, well is 32 per hour ok considering you drive around all day doing service calls fix the contractors mistakes, as much overtime as youd like.:thumbsup:


That is way over the mean income for an electrician in Texas. Closer to New York money.

https://www.google.com/#newwindow=1&safe=off&q=average electrician salary texas


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## ben journeyman

EEjack, Your probably right if you go go to TDLR site youll find that Texas has 
compared to other states alot more apprentices than journeyman, wireman or master electricians alot of apprentices very few wireman, journeyman etc.. I do agree with your past comments to a point. What is really interesting is that within the city limits of Austin any electrical company doing business, there employees cannot be contractors the employees have to be fulltime employees no contract labor, I heard that the whole State of Texas my go this route as well. This is putting pressure on local electrical companies to hire qualified electricians, I believe all this came to be because of the hack work being done by unlicensed,undocumented, workers. That being said some of these guys are awesome fast paced but also you get alot of hack work and you know as well as I do these new arcfault breakers they dont hide your mistakes. Also its hard for undocumented installers to pass the PSI Texas Exam wireman or journeyman, Ive also noticed the union are picking up alot of work here in Austin. I believe this is an opportunity for qualified Electricians.:thumbup:


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## eejack

I'm just looking at the base numbers in wages - package rate for local 520 is right around $35 an hour, I suspect very few non union residential electricians are making that in Austin. While it may be getting better, it is still not a good place to make a living.

Essentially your average electrician would be giving up $20K per year to work in Texas ( $10 per hour ) and it doesn't cost $20K per year less to live in Texas. Probably the only place that is less friendly to skilled labor is Kansas, and that truly has become a scary place to live.


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## Bad Electrician

eejack:

I have family in Austin and quite a few friends from high school, I keep in contact with and they LOVE the place, say it is a wonderful place to live and work. Little hot in the summer but other than that they are very content. None of them work construction, that I know of. Teachers, IT and the like.


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## manchestersparky

I agree with Brian ( bad electrician) on joining local 26.
I deal with a good number of those guys - seldom hear a bad word


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## eejack

I like Austin, great music scene and nice place to live. San Antonio is another great city to live.

The issue with Texas is they hate labor, taxes and the federal government. 46th in education spending. Worst in health care. 30th in per capita income. 45th on the livability index. 

( on a scary note it is third in number of lynchings, first in the number of prisoner deaths, first in executions and first in number of prisoners )

The problem with not paying taxes is you don't then have the services and without the services you don't attract companies willing to pay good wages.


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## CommandoCody

be advised, that if you join a union ( IBEW) , there are many downsides. they control where and when you work. if you ever cross the BA ( business Agent) you are dead meat. you will travel to work and in another local, you are a second class citizen at best, many states will honor a lineman's grunt over you with a journeyman card. many locals will forbid you to sign book one, no matter what the law sayes. be carefull. i lived it .


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## HackWork

CommandoCody said:


> be advised, that if you join a union ( IBEW) , there are many downsides. they control where and when you work. if you ever cross the BA ( business Agent) you are dead meat. you will travel to work and in another local, you are a second class citizen at best, many states will honor a lineman's grunt over you with a journeyman card. many locals will forbid you to sign book one, no matter what the law sayes. be carefull. i lived it .


It's true that there are downsides to being a union member, although not to the extremes that you mention. 

Nothing in the world is perfect. In the end, if there is work, being in the union could be very lucrative. And if there's a problem, simply leave and go back to nonunion work.


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## Rollie73

While I've seen firsthand some of the extremes that Commando listed.....it is a very rare occurrence. 
It usually the works and tactics of a corrupt business manager/administration who feel that its their God-given right to rule their local as something akin to facist dictatorship (think Nazi) while the exact opposite is true.
My own local went through a dark period with exactly the situation we are talking about and it ended with the business manager's brother (a member) pulling a Colt .38 revolver on another member who dared to speak out about the situation in our local. That's when the International finally stepped in and investigated the daily workings of our local. 

It does happen but it is rare.


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## HackWork

Rollie73 said:


> While I've seen firsthand some of the extremes that Commando listed.....it is a very rare occurrence.
> It usually the works and tactics of a corrupt business manager/administration who feel that its their God-given right to rule their local as something akin to facist dictatorship (think Nazi) while the exact opposite is true.
> My own local went through a dark period with exactly the situation we are talking about and it ended with the business manager's brother (a member) pulling a Colt .38 revolver on another member who dared to speak out about the situation in our local. That's when the International finally stepped in and investigated the daily workings of our local.
> 
> It does happen but it is rare.


It does happen, yes. But to state "If you cross the BA you are dead meat" as if it's a definite fact is false and irresponsible. My local is filled with men who hate the BA's and BM and make sure that they know it at every meeting. But the BM and BA's wouldn't dare try and retaliate because that's when the lawsuits start.


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## Rollie73

HackWork said:


> It does happen, yes. But to state "If you cross the BA you are dead meat" as if it's a definite fact is false and irresponsible. My local is filled with men who hate the BA's and BM and make sure that they know it at every meeting. But the BM and BA's wouldn't dare try and retaliate because that's when the lawsuits start.


 
Exactly true Hack......it is not an absolute fact about IBEW and it is irresponsible to portray it as such. 

The BA/BM is not their to be everyone's friend but to run the daily workings of the hall to the best of their abilities and to look out the good of the union and the best interests of the members which elected them the position their in.


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## cabletie

Rollie73 said:


> While I've seen firsthand some of the extremes that Commando listed.....it is a very rare occurrence.
> It usually the works and tactics of a corrupt business manager/administration who feel that its their God-given right to rule their local as something akin to facist dictatorship (think Nazi) while the exact opposite is true.
> My own local went through a dark period with exactly the situation we are talking about and it ended with the business manager's brother (a member) pulling a Colt .38 revolver on another member who dared to speak out about the situation in our local. That's when the International finally stepped in and investigated the daily workings of our local.
> 
> It does happen but it is rare.


We had our incedents also. It is why firearms and hard liquor are not allowed on the property. Now they don't allow any alcohol. I always thought those were the best of times. The meetings were run very civil. no one spoke out of turn, and you could speak your mind.


Now there is a lot more free speech and complaints. you can barley here what is being said. Who would want the job of BA? You could not pay me enough. I pretty much have stopped going unless there is a vote.



> if you ever cross the BA ( business Agent) you are dead meat.


There are two sides to every story. I wonder what the BA's side is.



> many locals will forbid you to sign book one, no matter what the law sayes. be carefull. i lived it .


I have never traveled, but if I did I would not expect to sign anyone's book one. Our by-laws state clearly the order of work eligibility and who is called off of what list. Are you talking about right to work? If so I have no idea how that effects the by-laws. NJ is not a right to work state, so any "A" member traveling here can expect to sign book two. That is still better than signing book four!


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## CommandoCody

i joined the IBEW in 1965, served a four year apprenticeship. i was very thankful for the oppertunities that it gave me. i have lived thru more and seen more than you who are defending the IBEW. some locals will treat you very well, but believe me i speak from experience. someone mentioned a " lawsuit"-- go down to the Texas gulf coast, and put a lawsuit against the local and you will be at the bottom of the river. you young guys have not traveled much or at all. the I E C offers a much better deal with a four year apprentice program and more freedow to work where you want.


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## HackWork

CommandoCody said:


> i joined the IBEW in 1965, served a four year apprenticeship. i was very thankful for the oppertunities that it gave me. i have lived thru more and seen more than you who are defending the IBEW. some locals will treat you very well, but believe me i speak from experience. someone mentioned a " lawsuit"-- go down to the Texas gulf coast, and put a lawsuit against the local and you will be at the bottom of the river. you young guys have not traveled much or at all. the I E C offers a much better deal with a four year apprentice program and more freedow to work where you want.


You don't know anything about us, how long we have been in, what we have seen, etc. You have 2 posts on this website and both of them are anti-union propaganda.

For example, here is another gem: "_go down to the Texas gulf coast, and put a lawsuit against the local and you will be at the bottom of the river._"


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## chicken steve

The salt on one job took me to lunch when the BA came around. They spent the whole time telling me how great i was  and signed me up. Then they would call every 6 months or so asking if i wanted work out of state. I had to turn them down because i had little ones at the time.  That was almost 25 yrs ago....things may have sugared off differently had i been w/o such obligations.....~CS~


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## eejack

CommandoCody said:


> i joined the IBEW in 1965, served a four year apprenticeship. i was very thankful for the oppertunities that it gave me. i have lived thru more and seen more than you who are defending the IBEW. some locals will treat you very well, but believe me i speak from experience. someone mentioned a " lawsuit"-- go down to the Texas gulf coast, and put a lawsuit against the local and you will be at the bottom of the river. you young guys have not traveled much or at all. the I E C offers a much better deal with a four year apprentice program and more freedow to work where you want.


So either you have been in a local for 50 years or got out 45 years ago.

In my 30+ years I have traveled and seen plenty of things and no one, including the fun loving electricians who sued my local has ended up on the bottom of a river - and NJ has plenty of rivers to sink a body.

The IEC is ****, everyone knows it and anyone who believes it ain't is lying.

Have a nice day.


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## Rollie73

HackWork said:


> You don't know anything about us, how long we have been in, what we have seen, etc. You have 2 posts on this website and both of them are anti-union propaganda.
> 
> For example, here is another gem: "_go down to the Texas gulf coast, and put a lawsuit against the local and you will be at the bottom of the river._"


While its true that I haven't been in the union anywhere near as long as since 1965, I come from a purely union family. My Dad and two of his brothers have been IBEW since long before I was born and three of his other brothers were union ironworkers and carpenters. I figuratively _grew up inside_ the union and it was always a given that if I followed in to the trades then I too would be union.
There was no local that was any worse for corruption and illegal activities than our local, and no body ever ended up at the bottom of a river



eejack said:


> So either you have been in a local for 50 years or got out 45 years ago.
> 
> In my 30+ years I have traveled and seen plenty of things and no one, including the fun loving electricians who sued my local has ended up on the bottom of a river - and NJ has plenty of rivers to sink a body.
> 
> The IEC is ****, everyone knows it and anyone who believes it ain't is lying.
> 
> Have a nice day.


We may not _always_ agree on all things union double E but you nailed this one.:thumbsup:


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## Southeast Power

CommandoCody said:


> i joined the IBEW in 1965, served a four year apprenticeship. i was very thankful for the oppertunities that it gave me. i have lived thru more and seen more than you who are defending the IBEW. some locals will treat you very well, but believe me i speak from experience. someone mentioned a " lawsuit"-- go down to the Texas gulf coast, and put a lawsuit against the local and you will be at the bottom of the river. you young guys have not traveled much or at all. the I E C offers a much better deal with a four year apprentice program and more freedow to work where you want.


You know 1965 was 50 years ago right?
I think you are into your 70s and maybe haven't seen the inside of a union hall longer ago than most members on this forum have been alive.


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## chicken steve

Rollie73 said:


> and no body ever ended up at the bottom of a river


too much_ pita ice _to chop Rollie....:laughing:~CS~


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## 51360

chicken steve said:


> too much_ pita ice _to chop Rollie....:laughing:~CS~


That's why Jimmy isn't in a river. Him and Elvis come fishing up north every now and then.  :laughing:

Borgi


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