# Septic pump control box power (resi)



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

A typical residential septic control panel used around here requires 2 circuits - one exclusively for the pump and the other for the control circuit and alarm. Most often a 12/3 is run. 

This introduces a problem - the code requires a common trip breaker. However, with this arrangement, a pump fault will knock out the alarm circuit as well and causing a potential overflow. 

So how are these typically wired? Two separate 2-wire circuits?


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

MTW said:


> A typical residential septic control panel used around here requires 2 circuits - one exclusively for the pump and the other for the control circuit and alarm. Most often a 12/3 is run.
> 
> This introduces a problem - the code requires a common trip breaker. However, with this arrangement, a pump fault will knock out the alarm circuit as well and causing a potential overflow.
> 
> So how are these typically wired? Two separate 2-wire circuits?


Yes, two separate 2-wire circuits just for the alarm reason you mentioned.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Yes, two separate 2-wire circuits just for the alarm reason you mentioned.


Or just run the 3-wire and don't use a common trip breaker. :whistling2:


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## mvigneux (May 3, 2013)

Most of the ones I see are quite advanced and require 12/3 or 10/3 feed and internal fuses that will blow without tripping the breaker so the alarm still functions.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Two separate cables(UF), I have seen a three circuit unit also.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

MTW said:


> Or just run the 3-wire and don't use a common trip breaker. :whistling2:


That is up to you but down here I've seen many that the alarms were on a 15 amp gfici circuit and the pump on a separate 20 amp circuit.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

I run (2) seperate ...but I confess it has nuttin to do
with codes or common trip issues. 
I run (2) cause septic companies run (2) to building , so
I just have been matching what they do.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Resi alarms take almost_ zero_ ummph, and are usually made on the pump motor circuits 

Typically they are made to the panel gfci

see 430.24 & 430.25 

~CS~


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

MechanicalDVR said:


> That is up to you but down here I've seen many that the alarms were on a 15 amp gfici circuit and the pump on a separate 20 amp circuit.


Yes, I have seen that too. My friend has that 15/20 setup on his house. The control circuit has a 10 amp breaker in the control box itself. 

But 90% of the time I'm seeing 12/3 run.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

chicken steve said:


> Resi alarms take almost_ zero_ ummph, and are usually made on the pump motor circuits


That's not what I'm seeing at all, the pump and alarm circuits are totally separate for obvious reasons.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

MTW said:


> That's not what I'm seeing at all, the pump and alarm circuits are totally separate for obvious reasons.


Does that _'obvious reason'_ comes via an '_obvious code citation_' MT ?


~CS~


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

I'm too lazy to look... how do these systems get around the restriction on multiple circuits to a remote structure? It seems like the code says something about alarm or signaling, but again I'm not going to hunt the book down... and opening it is out of the question.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

chicken steve said:


> Does that _'obvious reason'_ comes via an '_obvious code citation_' MT ?
> 
> 
> ~CS~


No clue. I don't read the code book, I do what is practical.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Please explain how is adding redundant circuitry is practical MT?

~CS~


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

RePhase277 said:


> I'm too lazy to look... how do these systems get around the restriction on multiple circuits to a remote structure? It seems like the code says something about alarm or signaling, but again I'm not going to hunt the book down... and opening it is out of the question.


You mean multiple circuits to the underground system? 

I'm trying to edumacate myself on these since I may be wiring them more frequently now.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

chicken steve said:


> Does that _'obvious reason'_ comes via an '_obvious code citation_' MT ?
> 
> 
> ~CS~


I would think it would be obvious to anyone, even non-electricians, as to why you would want your pump and alarm on different circuits. You don't need a code to tell you that ringing an alarm if the chit pump stops working is a good idea.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

chicken steve said:


> Please explain how is adding redundant circuitry is practical MT?
> 
> ~CS~


Because that's how the control boxes are configured from the factory.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

MTW said:


> You mean multiple circuits to the underground system?
> 
> I'm trying to edumacate myself on these since I may be wiring them more frequently now.


There is a code that forbids multiple circuits from feeding remote structures. A septic pit is a structure. I just feel that there may be an exception for signaling circuits, but I can't recall.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

chicken steve said:


> Please explain how is adding redundant circuitry is practical MT?
> 
> ~CS~


Because if the pump rotor locks up and takes out the circuit, the alarm will still sound, alerting you that you've got an environmental disaster on the way in your backyard.


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## Jack Legg (Mar 12, 2014)

around here the septic installer will run a 12/2 and a 14/2 uf

the 12/2 for the 120v pump

and the 14/2 is low volt for the alarm float from one of these usually plugged in by the service panel








very rare is there a septic control panel


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Jack Legg said:


> around here the septic installer will run a 12/2 and a 14/2 uf
> 
> the 12/2 for the 120v pump
> 
> ...


That looks like an improvement compared to keeping the alarm on a GFI since if the GFI trips you'll never know until you discover the septic mess it failed to sound the alarm about.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Most resi pump alarms end up in basements with the incoming septic run. The cheap and most prevalent variety being indoor cord/plug in models.

They can be plugged into the panel gfci ,which can serve other notable gfci required items 

There is absolutely _no need,_ in either code *or* practical sense, to supply a dedicated circuit to it.
:no::no:
~CS~


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

A few further applicable considerations would be 430.102 as well as 110.25 , depending on the configuration.

Some states require a pedestal , some don't for the aforementioned reasons , albeit they can easily be '_exceptioned_' out 

However, it must be noted that making splices in a *methane atmosphere* can seriously up the '_ante_':whistling2: , so the pedestal (or ground box) is utilized allowing those long pump and alarm leads to find a non-methane termination

I'm curious as to how many of you who have them inspected come to the above conclusions?
:thumbsup:
~CS~


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

MTW said:


> Because that's how the control boxes are configured from the factory.


Please show us a *110.3B* ,_manufacturers specifications_, that dictates a residential septic pump /alarm box be fed via 2 home runs , pump *AND* alarm Mr MT

thx

~CS~


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

This is pretty typical of what gets installed here.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

backstay said:


> This is pretty typical of what gets installed here.


Well I'll be. A pump control box that is configured for two separate circuits. One for the pump and one for the alarm circuit. Imagine that.


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## mvigneux (May 3, 2013)

The last one we did was configured for 3 sep ccts, a small pump, large pump and alarm


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

MTW said:


> A typical residential septic control panel used around here requires 2 circuits - one exclusively for the pump and the other for the control circuit and alarm. Most often a 12/3 is run.
> 
> This introduces a problem - the code requires a common trip breaker. However, with this arrangement, a pump fault will knock out the alarm circuit as well and causing a potential overflow.
> 
> So how are these typically wired? Two separate 2-wire circuits?


As others have stated, 2 separate circuits would suffice.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Chris1971 said:


> As others have stated, 2 separate circuits would suffice.


I see.


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

MTW said:


> Well I'll be. A pump control box that is configured for two separate circuits. One for the pump and one for the alarm circuit. Imagine that.


:thumbsup:


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

this would be the norm here>












~CS~


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

chicken steve said:


> this would be the norm here>
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That typical used on gravity feed holding tank but if you have pump in system that change the game a bit.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

They can be installed on _either_ FrenchOne

And most pumps i see are 120V 

The OP is targeting residential systems , most of which are the _simplest_ , which are bid winners 

If we want to depart from resi into commercial systems, the ante' up's....

~CS~


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## mvigneux (May 3, 2013)

chicken steve said:


> They can be installed on _either_ FrenchOne
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Most custom homes round' here are bid with commercial gear, because a large home typically needs that approach, not to mention customers have money and expect to spend money or they don't feel like their getting something good.


I can't count the number of times a gc has told a drywaller or tiler he likes to add 20% to his bid or the homeowner would just dismiss it!

Then again we have the hottest luxury home
Market in North America 


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> this would be the norm here>
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Septic installers haven't used that style here in over twenty years. Alarm and controls are at the pump site. Float and pump wires are long enough to reach the control panel.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

backstay said:


> Septic installers haven't used that style here in over twenty years. Alarm and controls are at the pump site. Float and pump wires are long enough to reach the control panel.


I've already asked about that BStay

~CS~


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

backstay said:


> Septic installers haven't used that style here in over twenty years. Alarm and controls are at the pump site. Float and pump wires are long enough to reach the control panel.



Typical installation here has the control panel that you posted. The septic field is usually far away from the house, so a 3/4" PVC is run to a j-box where the float and pump cords are spliced. 99% of septic systems are like that with a manufactured control panel located outside.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

A lot of panels come set up for separate alarm and pump circuits, or it's an available option.

Even if it might be technical NEC violation, health codes and DEQ's often want the alarm circuit separate from the pump. Ours even goes as far as to say they have to be different and the the alarm must be fed off a lighting circuit in the building the system serves, it can't be dedicated to just the alarm.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

MTW said:


> Yes, I have seen that too. My friend has that 15/20 setup on his house. The control circuit has a 10 amp breaker in the control box itself.
> 
> But 90% of the time I'm seeing 12/3 run.


Maybe one company started doing that and then it caught on in your area.


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