# I've never seen one



## Arrow3030 (Mar 12, 2014)

I know nothing of this era. This is for a service disconnect. It tripped, I reset it. The boss is going to follow up on it. I'm posting for any info from the many experienced people here. Ty


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Can't tell from the tiny pic on my phone but it looks like an Eaton or maybe Westinghouse ground fault relay. I don't really recommend just resetting them before at least _some_ checking, unless you know for a fact that you just had a big motor or something burn up. I guess yours just went to an alarm and didn't shunt trip the main?


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

If I have the pic decoded properly, and it is a ground fault relay, they're pretty simple. In a nutshell, they have a couple terminals to power the unit. A couple few terminals for CT's to decode if there's current "leaving" but not "coming back" the right place (assumed to be going to ground), and a few sets of normally open and normally closed contacts to do with as you wish for when the unit trips (shunt trip a breaker, sound a buzzer, whatever). The dials adjust the magnitude of the ground fault and the number of cycles in which it may occur before it trips. Of course, they can be all fancy-pants and featureful, but yours appears to be a dirt-simple unit.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

https://www.amazon.com/Westinghouse-1293C47G08-Ground-Fault-Relay/dp/B01F7SJRYY


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

splatz said:


> https://www.amazon.com/Westinghouse-1293C47G08-Ground-Fault-Relay/dp/B01F7SJRYY


Well there you go. Cheap at twice the price.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

You can just about make out two numbers on it, 

1293C47G08
p/n: 255p157h04c 

There are some photos on the amazon link that *might* be helpful, but I would be careful assuming it's identical - it might be some slight variant. 

Unfortunately one of the casualties of all the consolidation in the industry, the web site for eaton / cutler hammer / westinghouse doesn't have any info on this. Really ten years ago you had more archival information at your fingertips, ten years ago web sites had really good old info on them, now it's hard to find even fairly recent info.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Very doubtful the thing needs replacing. Much like breakers seldom "go bad", but rather trip for a reason. Same idea here. It's more likely than not that this thing tripped on a genuine ground fault, however brief it may have been. In a large installation, something may have burned up that won't be discovered for days, weeks, or months. It may even be a faulty load that seldom cycles. 

Most people's "fix" it to "adjust the dials some". I'd almost bet my next paycheck that this is what the OP's boss will do. Naturally, that's no fix at all. Sort of like turning up your car stereo when the engine's valves start to clatter to mask the noise.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

https://autode.sk/2Mc9oOa


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Arrow3030 said:


> This is for a service disconnect. It tripped, I reset it.


How did you trip it?


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Look someone wants to service it for you: 

http://www.protectiverelayspecialists.com/protective-relays-sorted-by-manufacturer.htm


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

splatz said:


> How did you trip it?


I totally missed that part. I guess he knows why it tripped then. :biggrin: Mystery solved. Nothing to see here. Move on. :vs_cool:

@brian john since this is his every day thing.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

splatz said:


> Look someone wants to service it for you:
> 
> http://www.protectiverelayspecialists.com/protective-relays-sorted-by-manufacturer.htm


 I don't really know why people would get old crap like that fixed. GE used to make these mechanical ground fault relay monstrosities that you can retrofit something modern that you can hold in the palm of your hand.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

MDShunk said:


> I don't really know why people would get old crap like that fixed. GE used to make these mechanical ground fault relay monstrosities that you can retrofit something modern that you can hold in the palm of your hand.


Maybe red tape at some of these facilities where you're allowed to replace it with same or similar no big deal, but changing to something functionally equivalent takes an act of congress.


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## Arrow3030 (Mar 12, 2014)

The service call was for no power to the building. I'm glad shunk recommended checking things before throwing the switch bc that's what I did.

I wouldn't be surprised if we don't get a call back saying one of their motors isn't working anymore after reading through the responses.

I know I've updated an older switch gear before but I don't remember the details very well. The customer did seem interested in that. 

Thanks all for the help


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Arrow3030 said:


> The service call was for no power to the building. I'm glad shunk recommended checking things before throwing the switch bc that's what I did.
> 
> I wouldn't be surprised if we don't get a call back saying one of their motors isn't working anymore after reading through the responses.
> 
> ...


So you get a chance to sell them a motor and a new GFCI main!!

When it rains it pours!


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

Yep Splatz a MOC can be a real tough thing to get, especially if engineers are in short supply at a facility. 
BTW, I love the smell of slate and Bakelite in the morning.


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## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

Those relays are made by a Company called ITI (Instrument Transformer Inc) in Florida, they brand labeled that relay to Westinghouse, GE, Cutler Hammer, Square D and ITE/Siemens for years and years. Same Relay, different colors on the faceplate. The purpose was to be able to add equipment GF protection to existing breakers or bolted pressure switches by simply adding a shunt trip to the breaker or switch and running the conductors through this big window CT, then wiring the GF relay to the shunt trip coil. 

ITI was bought by GE in the 90s but still operated independently, at least until 2006 when I left a neighboring company that had a personal relationship with the founder (long boring story). When GE bought them, most of the others ended their brand label agreements, plus most mfrs had switched to just building the GFP feature into the breaker anyway. 

You can still get that relay from ITI, and I don’t know the status of their connection to GE now that GE was bought by ABB. But regardless, they are still made and supported.


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## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

From the photo, the label on the side indicates it was originally set for 100A of Ground Current, likely as part of a Coordination Study based on it having that sticker. But the dial on there appears to have been tweaked to a little more than 100A. That tells me this has happened before and rather than finding out why you had >100A of Ground fault current, someone just cranked it up by an RCH. That’s a very dangerous thing to do. True to form, this problem has probably never been dealt with and will only get worse, i.e. it took 30 years to trip the first time, 10 years the next time, maybe only a few years this time, next time it might be months or weeks, then days, then hours. You are losing money each time. The time to investigate and find the REAL problem is now.


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

What's with the redaction's?


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## Arrow3030 (Mar 12, 2014)

Thanks for all the info! I really enjoy reading it. 

I don't know much about this building other than they had to cut a padlock off the gear bc it hadn't been opened for years.


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## gnuuser (Jan 13, 2013)

JRaef said:


> From the photo, the label on the side indicates it was originally set for 100A of Ground Current, likely as part of a Coordination Study based on it having that sticker. But the dial on there appears to have been tweaked to a little more than 100A. That tells me this has happened before and rather than finding out why you had >100A of Ground fault current, someone just cranked it up by an RCH. That’s a very dangerous thing to do. True to form, this problem has probably never been dealt with and will only get worse, i.e. it took 30 years to trip the first time, 10 years the next time, maybe only a few years this time, next time it might be months or weeks, then days, then hours. You are losing money each time. The time to investigate and find the REAL problem is now.


that kind of thing ive seen too many times 
and mostly by unauthorized people.
we ended up locking the control cabinets for their's and our safety.


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## Arrow3030 (Mar 12, 2014)

It is somewhat odd that the dials are so easy to mess with and so important for safety/function. 

I really doubt anyone messed with the one from the OP recently. The lock they had to cut to get to the cabinet was rusted pretty good.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Do an ET search for a post I wrote some time ago regarding GFPE's.


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