# ICF Homes



## starsailor803 (Jun 10, 2009)

Has anyone wired an ICF house? Saw one being constructed for the first time the other day. It's the strangest thing I'd ever seen. Exterior walls are styro foam blocks filled with rebar and concrete. This one is three stories with open truss-style floor joists and stick built interior walls. Just curious how you'd rough in the exterior walls. I'm thinking you'd route the styro with a hot knife and mount 4" sq boxes with plaster rings to the concrete and stub up with EMT(topped with a connector and plastic bushing) to run the Romex thru. 

Or would you run MC cable? That would be costly.

Here's a link for anyone curious as to what these are: http://www.icfhomes.com/


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

I've never wired one, but seen them on This old house a few times.


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## starsailor803 (Jun 10, 2009)

I'd love to try one. The homeowner and his wife are building it themselves. I think he plans on doing the wiring himself but when I asked him how they planned on doing the electrical he didn't seem 100% sure. In fact, I remember him giving me a confused look when I used terms like Romex and EMT. Maybe he'll get frustrated and give us a call. Wishful thinking.


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## George Stolz (Jan 22, 2009)

No problem. Just plan on 2x or 3x the price for any conventional home, per trade.

We did NM routered in with a router, and then insulating foamed in. 4 squares liquid-nailed into the foam.

It's about the worst building method I can think of at the moment, but isn't it cool! :blink:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

George Stolz said:


> No problem. Just plan on 2x or 3x the price for any conventional home, per trade.
> 
> We did NM routered in with a router, and then insulating foamed in. 4 squares liquid-nailed into the foam.
> 
> It's about the worst building method I can think of at the moment, but isn't it cool! :blink:


I use an electric chain saw with a long peice of all-thread nutted to the bar to control the depth.

4sq. boxes are shot in with a Ramset.


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## starsailor803 (Jun 10, 2009)

480sparky said:


> I use an electric chain saw with a long peice of all-thread nutted to the bar to control the depth.
> 
> 4sq. boxes are shot in with a Ramset.


This seems like a good idea. So, have you done many ICF houses, 480? Are they a PITA?


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## George Stolz (Jan 22, 2009)

480sparky said:


> I use an electric chain saw with a long peice of all-thread nutted to the bar to control the depth.


If that works well, my buddy would probably stab me to find that out. 



> 4sq. boxes are shot in with a Ramset.


Always at a column location, or just into foam?


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

Haven’t wired one but did help a neighbor build an ICF potato house (a kind of barn with everything but the roof and one side are below grade). It was old fashion barn building bee with all volunteers, when it got to dark to work we would drink beer and smoke cigars ‘till the mosquitoes drove us off.


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## vinster888 (May 3, 2009)

once again another use for a sawz all. with a wood blade you get a nice wire notch in no time. the ones i have done had a steel top plate and those holes were sleeved from the factory. makes you think before running wire.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

George Stolz said:


> If that works well, my buddy would probably stab me to find that out.
> 
> 
> Always at a column location, or just into foam?


"Column"? The whole wall is concrete behind the foam. Cut the foam out, and shoot a box anywhere. Just make sure it's between the plastic tabs the drywallers use for hanging rock.

It's been a couple years since I've done one, and I never took pix during the last one I did.



starsailor803 said:


> This seems like a good idea. So, have you done many ICF houses, 480? Are they a PITA?


Not really a PITA, just a totally different way of thinking.

Anything more than a 2-gang box will need something more than a 4sq and mud ring. Laying out the circuits takes a different mindset as sometimes you just can't take 4 or 5 cables into a box.


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## George Stolz (Jan 22, 2009)

480sparky said:


> "Column"? The whole wall is concrete behind the foam. Cut the foam out, and shoot a box anywhere. Just make sure it's between the plastic tabs the drywallers use for hanging rock.
> 
> It's been a couple years since I've done one, and I never took pix during the last one I did.


Ahh - must be a slightly different system. In the system we dealt with, the styrofoam forms essentially made a concrete "waffle" at the middle of the wall. It was a crap shoot as to whether you were going to find styrofoam or concrete at the center of the wall, where you wanted a box.




> Not really a PITA, just a totally different way of thinking.
> 
> Anything more than a 2-gang box will need something more than a 4sq and mud ring. Laying out the circuits takes a different mindset as sometimes you just can't take 4 or 5 cables into a box.


The particular house we dealt with had a SIP ceiling as well, and also a loft with a fully exposed wood floor, so that probably helped to elevate it into PITA status.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

George Stolz said:


> Ahh - must be a slightly different system. In the system we dealt with, the styrofoam forms essentially made a concrete "waffle" at the middle of the wall. It was a crap shoot as to whether you were going to find styrofoam or concrete at the center of the wall, where you wanted a box........


All the ICF homes I've done were built with a form that consisted of two plates of styro spaced apart with hard plastic. This plastic also provided an attachtment point for the drywall or other finish. So the concrete is there no matter where I put a box.










Darn it was hard to find an image!


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## te12co2w (Jun 3, 2007)

George Stolz said:


> Ahh - must be a slightly different system. In the system we dealt with, the styrofoam forms essentially made a concrete "waffle" at the middle of the wall. It was a crap shoot as to whether you were going to find styrofoam or concrete at the center of the wall, where you wanted a box.
> 
> 
> We've done a few on the same kind of walls. We had to check each location for solid surface to mount to. Used the plastic tabs or concrete depending on what was available. Level the box, attach it, and use appropriately sized plaster ring and then level that too. They definitely are harder to wire. Not as time consuming as a log home though.


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## starsailor803 (Jun 10, 2009)

I don't think anything is worse than a log home. I hope I never have to do another one of those.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

starsailor803 said:


> I don't think anything is worse than a log home. I hope I never have to do another one of those.


I love 'em..... far better money that tract or spec housing.


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## wvwirenut (Apr 24, 2009)

A good GC that drills holes in the logs as he goes is a huge lifesaver on a log house.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

I did one several years ago. I insisted they frame out the inside of the exterior walls. 

Then, the only issues were getting the exterior boxes mounted. The cavity inside the blocks are rounded and makes securing a box difficult if it's not a pan box right on the flat part.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

wvwirenut said:


> A good GC that drills holes in the logs as he goes is a huge lifesaver on a log house.


No way am I going to miss setting logs. I'd never let the GC or the log crews attempt to do my job for me.


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## te12co2w (Jun 3, 2007)

480sparky said:


> No way am I going to miss setting logs. I'd never let the GC or the log crews attempt to do my job for me.



Do you put the price for drilling and cutting boxes in on your bid? That is if you do bid the log jobs. I've never found a way to accurately bid the drilling and cutting box holes in logs, so all the prices I've given were with that stuff extra. Sometimes the gc decides to do that and they can certainly put you in a bind. I don't know how they get holes lined up properly with natural logs i.e. not milled. All different dimensions. Quite often they don't get those holes lined up. We use a plunge router with homemade templates for cutting in boxes. Can't find a router bit deep enough, so we finish a sawzall. Have to have a different template for the plates, then cut the box in. 
I looked on the 'net and never did find anyone that built templates. There is one outfit that provides wooden trimplates for round milled logs though.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

te12co2w said:


> Do you put the price for drilling and cutting boxes in on your bid? ..........


Absotively posilutely. I rarely cut the boxes in, though. The log crew typically does that.


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## wvwirenut (Apr 24, 2009)

480sparky said:


> No way am I going to miss setting logs. I'd never let the GC or the log crews attempt to do my job for me.


Unfortunately, I wasn't called until the logs were up and the roof and everything was on. I think the HO was going to try it himself and decided he was way in over his head. I got the slop to clean up.


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## wvwirenut (Apr 24, 2009)

te12co2w said:


> We use a plunge router with homemade templates for cutting in boxes. Can't find a router bit deep enough, so we finish a sawzall. Have to have a different template for the plates, then cut the box in.
> I looked on the 'net and never did find anyone that built templates. There is one outfit that provides wooden trimplates for round milled logs though.


The Fein MultiMaster is a good tool for cutting in boxes in logs. 

My brother-in-law built an ICF house in NC, but not sure how the exterior walls were wired. I'm headed that way in a few weeks, so I'll find out.


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## F & F Electric (Jun 9, 2009)

*Getting off topic...*

Back onto the topic at hand...foam walls...has anyone seen the super heated ball bearing trick for dropping circuits down the walls? If this is a solid foam wall from floor to ceiling this is super easy to do.


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## F & F Electric (Jun 9, 2009)

wvwirenut said:


> The Fein MultiMaster is a good tool for cutting in boxes in logs.
> 
> quote]
> 
> ...


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

wvwirenut said:


> ...... I got the slop to clean up.


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## starsailor803 (Jun 10, 2009)

480, on log homes do you just mark up x amount per device over your normal price or do you have another way of estimating these?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

starsailor803 said:


> 480, on log homes do you just mark up x amount per device over your normal price ........


Pretty much. I have a set amount per device for standard-framed houses, then a set amount additional if the device is in a log wall.


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## Toronto Sparky (Apr 12, 2009)

F & F Electric said:


> Back onto the topic at hand...foam walls...has anyone seen the super heated ball bearing trick for dropping circuits down the walls? If this is a solid foam wall from floor to ceiling this is super easy to do.


As long as there is no fire block.. Seems that may set the house on fire..


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