# Romex in commercial



## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Goes by your AHJ, some here allow, some don't.


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

I wonder about old wooden, multi-office storefronts, myself..is romex allowable?


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Shockdoc said:


> Goes by your AHJ, some here allow, some don't.


What do you mean by this. Maybe in NYC it is not allowed, but everywhere else in NY is. 
And yes, I am aware that the OP is not in NY.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Speedy Petey said:


> What do you mean by this. Maybe in NYC it is not allowed, but everywhere else in NY is.
> And yes, I am aware that the OP is not in NY.


Town of Oyster Bay, NO. Town of Hempstead, YES, Village of Freeport,NO, Suffolk County,YES, Town of N. Hempstead,NO. It varies between county, towns and villages here.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Shockdoc said:


> Town of Oyster Bay, NO. Town of Hempstead, YES, Village of Freeport,NO, Suffolk County,YES, Town of N. Hempstead,NO. It varies between county, towns and villages here.


And this is in writing somewhere?


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Speedy Petey said:


> And this is in writing somewhere?


Local town codes


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

GEORGE D said:


> Is there an issue with wiring a wooden office building that sits inside of a commercial facility with romex?


I would wonder if the wood framed office structure was allowed in the first place. Some building construction types are non-combustible only (with some exceptions).

To answer your question... the NEC would permit it with some limitations but as others have posted it may be best to check with your AHJ.

Pete


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## GEORGE D (Apr 2, 2009)

I'll check, thanks to all btw.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

If the place has a drop ceiling, you can pretty much forget it.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Celtic said:


> If the place has a drop ceiling, you can pretty much forget it.


If its type I, II, or III building and not a place of assembly, then it would be permitted everywhere except above the ceiling, as long as the walls have a 15 minute fire rating.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

mcclary's electrical said:


> If its type I, II, or III building and not a place of assembly, then it would be permitted everywhere except above the ceiling, as long as the walls have a 15 minute fire rating.


When you factor in all the additional cost for JBs, splices, etc etc...generally, it becomes a losing proposition to use the NM.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> If its type I, II, or III building and not a place of assembly, then it would be permitted everywhere except above the ceiling, as long as the walls have a 15 minute fire rating.


Here are the different types of buildings for those who don't know.. http://www.korel.com/construction-type.asp


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

How do you guys in NY price and figure out jobs when every town is different?


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Peter D said:


> How do you guys in NY price and figure out jobs when every town is different?


I only work in Suffolk County.. things are pretty standard from town to town..

Nassau County is all screwed up with many different licenses and the "good ole boys club" that HATES for any Suffolk County guy to work there..

They have a residency law where they reciprocate between towns* IF* you are a Nassau resident..

I would have to get about (15) different licenses to work in Nassau County..


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

B4T said:


> I only work in Suffolk County.. things are pretty standard from town to town..
> 
> Nassau County is all screwed up with many different licenses and the "good ole boys club" that HATES for any Suffolk County guy to work there..
> 
> ...


That's nuts. :no:


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

B4T said:


> I only work in Suffolk County.. things are pretty standard from town to town..
> 
> Nassau County is all screwed up with many different licenses and the "good ole boys club" that HATES for any Suffolk County guy to work there..
> 
> ...


Suffolk is jumping on that band wagon too, Southampton and Mastic already, rumor had it Islandia was next.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Shockdoc said:


> Suffolk is jumping on that band wagon too, Southampton and Mastic already, rumor had it Islandia was next.


I stay out of Southampton.. not going to pay a "register my truck fee".. 

Mastic is mostly a slum.. I don't go their either..


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

B4T said:


> I stay out of Southampton.. not going to pay a "register my truck fee"..
> 
> Mastic is mostly a slum.. I don't go their either..


I've had the Southampton for two years using it only once. Mastic is a joke and i won't even bother unless I get a 20k+ project out there which chances are extremely remote for that.


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## electricalwiz (Mar 12, 2011)

B4T said:


> I only work in Suffolk County.. things are pretty standard from town to town..
> 
> Nassau County is all screwed up with many different licenses and the "good ole boys club" that HATES for any Suffolk County guy to work there..
> 
> ...


That is how it is in PA, the big cities have a license that you have to take an ICC test for, but all the townships you have to pay roughly $100 per township per license. Really it is a license to steal. Not sure about NY but PA will never go to a state license because the local townships would lose too much money


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## electricalwiz (Mar 12, 2011)

Shockdoc said:


> I've had the Southampton for two years using it only once. Mastic is a joke and i won't even bother unless I get a 20k+ project out there which chances are extremely remote for that.


Is NY license by county or local township/municipality


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

electricalwiz said:


> Is NY license by county or local township/municipality


Seems like its by the block! 


:laughing:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

electricalwiz said:


> Is NY license by county or local township/municipality


Long Island is all of the above.. it is a money maker for everyone involved except for the poor slob just trying to make a living..


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## 123electric (Jun 3, 2012)

Type one and two construction no romex. Type three to five romex can be used. Leaving all places of assembly out of this equation for the present topic of construction types.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

electricalwiz said:


> Is NY license by county or local township/municipality


Two halves, one has a county, the other has towns, and Inc. villages. 19 licenses in all if one wishes to cover every nook and cranny.


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## 123electric (Jun 3, 2012)

How strange. I live on long island too! I have Suffolk county license (1998) oyster bay (2004) heampstead (2009) not going for more anytime soon as I have a 15 month old at home. Mainly just use Suffolk county. For Southampton all you need is Suffolk county for that silly little permit/license.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

GEORGE D said:


> Is there an issue with wiring a wooden office building that sits inside of a commercial facility with romex?


I say no.


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## 123electric (Jun 3, 2012)

I have Suffolk county, oyster bay and Hempstead.


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## 123electric (Jun 3, 2012)

I could never be an electric inspector as I would have all flat tires on my car for enforcing the code.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

123electric said:


> I could never be an electric inspector as I would have all flat tires on my car for enforcing the code.


Are there that many contractors there who would not install a proper job?


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## Theriot (Aug 27, 2011)

123electric said:


> I could never be an electric inspector as I would have all flat tires on my car for enforcing the code.


Where the problem comes in is the interpretation of code. Some or very open to questioning like the one the other day. The ground rod should by driven.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Theriot said:


> Where the problem comes in is the interpretation of code. Some or very open to questioning like the one the other day. The ground rod should by driven.


Are you interpreting the code to say that a rod does not have to be driven?


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## Theriot (Aug 27, 2011)

RIVETER said:


> Are you interpreting the code to say that a rod does not have to be driven?


No. I don't want to start this again but it was how it was driven. Is driving it by hand driven or does it have to be driven by a hammer or impact tool. That was the argument. An inspector said that if you could push it by hand it's not driven.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Theriot said:


> No. I don't want to start this again but it was how it was driven. Is driving it by hand driven or does it have to be driven by a hammer or impact tool. That was the argument. An inspector said that if you could push it by hand it's not driven.


If you can "push" a rod into the ground it is questionable as to it being in "intimate" contact with the earth. If, in the area that the rod needs to be driven is the same type of soil, a fall of potential test could be taken to see if what you eventually have is good enough.


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## Theriot (Aug 27, 2011)

The inspector was really making a point about the water trick.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Theriot said:


> The inspector was really making a point about the water trick.


That "water" trick...is a driven ground.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

123electric said:


> I could never be an electric inspector as I would have all flat tires on my car for enforcing the code.


It's an insult if an inspector opens as much as a receptacle:laughing:


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## noarcflash (Sep 14, 2011)

It's somewhat obvious, if a building has all EMT, and BX. And then when you remove ceiling tile, you see all the temp romex lighting from the original construction.... which I think has to be removed now-a-days.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

123electric said:


> Type one and two construction no romex. Type three to five romex can be used. Leaving all places of assembly out of this equation for the present topic of construction types.


Not quite, you can run romex in type 1 or type 2 construction if the buildings could have been built as type 3, 4 or 5.


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## 123electric (Jun 3, 2012)

Last time I checked type 1 or 2 had no wood in them. All concrete and steel. We can't use romex in those buildings. What on earth are they putting together in your area BBQ. Here type one or two on permit means no romex and if you try an use it on your rough your inspector would fail your rough. You would be making a return visit to rough it in using anouther wiring methold


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## 123electric (Jun 3, 2012)

BBQ- Do you work for an electrical contractor or are you an electrical contractor?


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

123electric said:


> BBQ- Do you work for an electrical contractor or are you an electrical contractor?


I run a small service division (5 trucks) for a large commercial electrical construction contracting company. 

In the past we have run miles of NM in Type 1 and Type 2 buildings, this pretty much ceased when the rule was added prohibiting NM in non-dwelling suspended ceiling.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

123electric said:


> Last time I checked type 1 or 2 had no wood in them. All concrete and steel.


I agree.



> We can't use romex in those buildings.


The NEC allows it in some cases.



> 334.10(3) *Other structures permitted to be of* Types III, IV, and V
> construction except as prohibited in 334.12. Cables
> shall be concealed within walls, floors, or ceilings that
> provide a thermal barrier of material that has at least a
> ...





> What on earth are they putting together in your area BBQ. Here type one or two on permit means no romex and if you try an use it on your rough your inspector would fail your rough. You would be making a return visit to rough it in using anouther wiring methold


That would depend on if the building would have been code compliantly built as a Type 3, 4 or 5.

For example, I want to build a large store, I could build it with wood and meet all building codes but I want large clear spans. I find out it is cheaper to build these long clear spans with steel and concrete. So I build it with steel and concrete but the NEC still allows NM to be used.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

What was the mass exemption for romex again? Was it the number of floors? There was something in there that my foggy mind can't recall.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

nrp3 said:


> What was the mass exemption for romex again? Was it the number of floors? There was something in there that my foggy mind can't recall.


The NEC used to restrict NM to under 3 floors above grade. The MA amendment said forget that and we could (and I did) run NM in non-dwelling units as high as 'GASP' 10 floors. Strangely it did not spontaneously combust. :jester:


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Imagine that. Right up there with the 08 and having to wire detached garages with MC. The exemptions don't apply to above non dwelling ceilings, correct?


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

When the NEC said that NM was now prohibited in non-dwelling ceilings MA amended that to 'it's OK if you run it neat'


MA Amendment


> 334.12(A)(2). Revise to read as follows:
> (2) In dropped or suspended ceilings in other than one- and two-family and multifamily
> dwellings, *unless run so as to closely follow the surface of framing members, running boards,
> or the equivalent, or unless connected to luminaires or other pieces of electrical equipment in
> accordance with 334.30(B)(2).*


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

334.10 Uses Permitted. Type NM, Type NMC, and Type NMS cables shall be permitted to be used in the following:

(1) One- and two-family dwellings and their attached or detached garages, and their storage buildings.
(2) Multifamily dwellings permitted to be of Types III, IV, and V construction except as prohibited in 334.12.
(3) Other structures permitted to be of Types III, IV, and V construction except as prohibited in 334.12. Cables shall be concealed within walls, floors, or ceilings that provide a thermal barrier of material that has at least a 15-minute finish rating as identified in listings of firerated assemblies.

_Informational Note No. 1: Types of building construction and occupancy classifications are defined in NFPA 220-2009, Standard on Types of Building Construction, or the applicable building code, or both. Informational Note No. 2: See Informative Annex E for determination of building types [NFPA 220, Table 3-1]._

(4) Cable trays in structures permitted to be Types III, IV, or V where the cables are identified for the use.

Informational Note: See 310.15(A)(3) for temperature limitation of conductors.

(5) Types I and II construction where installed within raceways permitted to be installed in Types I and II construction.


Part 5 is the one most people do not remember, but then again why would one run conduit then pull NM through it?


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## magneticpersona (Apr 28, 2012)

we have done this before, but need prior approval from the inspectors first. I would give em a call or have them pop by for a visit and if they say its good to go, then do it. Just make sure to keep the romex away from the concrete.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

magneticpersona said:


> Just make sure to keep the romex away from the concrete.



:blink:


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

BBQ said:


> :blink:


 Those 2 don't mix the building might explode


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## kapakahi (Feb 12, 2007)

*PA License*

If legislation was put forth in PA for a state license it may pass. I do not think the few cities that have licensing will have an issue. There is not that much money collected from electricians over a year to make a significant impact that they would fight it politically. Philadelphia would keep their more restrictive standard. Sort of like the statewide electrical inspectors' license. It is good for three years, there is a required continuing education (with many options), but I think think they would adopt it if presented properly.


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## uconduit (Jun 6, 2012)

For all I know, they might be using Romex in nuclear power plants across the third world, but in America, Romex is for residential use in like single-family homes and duplexes.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

uconduit said:


> For all I know, they might be using Romex in nuclear power plants across the third world, but in America, Romex is for residential use in like single-family homes and duplexes.


Just so much you do not know ...


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## uconduit (Jun 6, 2012)

BBQ said:


> Just so much you do not know ...


I'll admit it, I know next to nothing about Romex.


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## Chrisibew440 (Sep 13, 2013)

GEORGE D said:


> Is there an issue with wiring a wooden office building that sits inside of a commercial facility with romex?


Look up nm "non metallic" cable in the nec. Uses permitted and not permitted


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## uconduit (Jun 6, 2012)

Chrisibew440 said:


> Look up nm "non metallic" cable in the nec. Uses permitted and not permitted


zombie thread, man, it's been 16 months I'm hoping it got sorted out by now


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## Elephante (Nov 16, 2011)

A finished basement with metal studs, would that be considered type 1 construction?


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

GEORGE D said:


> Is there an issue with wiring a wooden office building that sits inside of a commercial facility with romex?


I say no. Unless the job requires a pull-in...pull-out system and as long as the romex is not exposed to damage.


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## ras electroid (Oct 22, 2014)

Is wires supposed to be exposed in a commercial building? I sighted a pull box with a bunch of wire being fed from four metal raceways down through the box to four holes at bottom of the box.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

ras electroid said:


> Is wires supposed to be exposed in a commercial building? I sighted a pull box with a bunch of wire being fed from four metal raceways down through the box to four holes at bottom of the box.


Check the thread dates and brush up on the English.


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