# ARC fault on all circuits not labled GFCI.



## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

We put arc faults in every day and do not have any issues with them tripping. The old non combos yes. The new combination type no issues. In 2008 all 120v receptacles shall be arc fault in most areas of a dwelling. 

210.12 Arc-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection.
(A) Dwelling Units. All 120-volt, single phase, 15- and
20-ampere branch circuits supplying outlets installed in
dwelling unit family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms,
parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sunrooms, recreation
rooms, closets, hallways, or similar rooms or areas shall
be protected by a listed arc-fault circuit interrupter,
combination-type, installed to provide protection of the
branch circuit.
Informational









Removing the arc fault on a service call??????? 

Are you crazy? That is illegal and I would not do that.


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## calboy (Feb 13, 2011)

jwjrw said:


> We put arc faults in every day and do not have any issues with them tripping. The old non combos yes. The new combination type no issues. In 2008 all 120v receptacles shall be arc fault in most areas of a dwelling.
> 
> 210.12 Arc-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection.
> (A) Dwelling Units. All 120-volt, single phase, 15- and
> ...


Now that you can look up the code, explain what is crazy about removing the arc fault with out going to the code book. I will rely on my years of experience and proper training then what is stated in a code book that is over kill or grandfathered. Explain what the danger is? You install them with no issues in a new home and leave. then after a while the owner starts having tripping issues and do you get called back to repair them, I bet not.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

calboy said:


> Now that you can look up the code, explain what is crazy about removing the arc fault with out going to the code book. I will rely on my years of experience and proper training then what is stated in a code book that is over kill or grandfathered. Explain what the danger is? You install them with no issues in a new home and leave. then after a while the owner starts having tripping issues and do you get called back to repair them, I bet not.


The code requires arc fault breakers. To remove them would violate the code and the state would take our license if we did that. Again we do not have any issues with them tripping at all. Our customers only use us. They do not call someone else to fix them. The arc fault breakers are not the issue. Your install is.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

calboy said:


> Well here a doosey in my neck of the woods. All convenience circuits located on a residential property new construction shall be either GFCI protected are Arc fault.
> 
> We all know code evolve such as GFCI shall be locate in all wet locations, garages and within 6-feet of water to GFCI shall be installed in all wet locations, laundry areas, garages and to all convenience outlets in kitchens and kitchen islands.
> 
> ...






> Good for the service and repair company as it is a basic service call and a quick 10 min and it is fixed/arc fault is removed for a standard circuit breaker. anyone else have this code in their city?


That is exactly why in my state all Electrical work requires a permit and inspection by the wiring inspector,,It does not matter if it is a service Call.
If you do not pull permits and somthing goes wrong you will be fined and have your license suspended and or Revoked.which meens bannisment from the trade..

IMO if you are going around removing AFCI breakers then you should lose you're license an do six monthes in the house of correction.. Hopefully that will change you,re attitude toward AFCI breakers..

You should Google AFCI breakers and read up about why they are code.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

calboy said:


> Now that you can look up the code, explain what is crazy about removing the arc fault with out going to the code book. I will rely on my years of experience and proper training then what is stated in a code book that is over kill or grandfathered. Explain what the danger is? You install them with no issues in a new home and leave. then after a while the owner starts having tripping issues and do you get called back to repair them, I bet not.


 You're job as an Electrician is to follow the NEC not make up the rules because you are smarter than the code,,

I you are haveing Tripping issues with AFCI breakers then maybe you should check your splices and device connections poor wiring practice is the problem not the AFCI breakers...


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## calboy (Feb 13, 2011)

Again, you are going by the book and both of you are avoiding the issue of reasons why of use versus experience. Yes I agree in a new home hey are required in Bedrooms, well until last week here in So cal they are required all over now But if it was such an issue with safety they would require all home new and old to be done this way and not have a grandfather clause to existing homes. I do know that even a loose wire nut can cause them to trip. We do not install them in home theaters due to high current amps will trip them. I do have all out project inspected and in the 57 years of my family business we have never had an issue whether it be with the local inspectors of the local unions.


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

calboy said:


> Again, you are going by the book and both of you are avoiding the issue of reasons why of use versus experience. Yes I agree in a new home hey are required in Bedrooms, well until last week here in So cal they are required all over now But if it was such an issue with safety they would require all home new and old to be done this way and not have a grandfather clause to existing homes. I do know that even a loose wire nut can cause them to trip. We do not install them in home theaters due to high current amps will trip them. I do have all out project inspected and in the 57 years of my family business we have never had an issue whether it be with the local inspectors of the local unions.





Grandfather Knows Best ?:jester::laughing:


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## calboy (Feb 13, 2011)

HARRY304E said:


> You're job as an Electrician is to follow the NEC not make up the rules because you are smarter than the code,,
> 
> I you are haveing Tripping issues with AFCI breakers then maybe you should check your splices and device connections poor wiring practice is the problem not the AFCI breakers...


 COME ON! give me a reason that you do not have to read. I want you to explain your experience why they have to be there not because you read it has to be there. One must remember that the Code book is there to provided a safe installation for the consumer and can be over kill in practical use. Do I say throw out the code and do what you want, absolutely not. But in some cases the practical use of the code in the trade does not make sense.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

calboy said:


> Again, you are going by the book and both of you are avoiding the issue of reasons why of use versus experience. Yes I agree in a new home hey are required in Bedrooms, well until last week here in So cal they are required all over now But if it was such an issue with safety they would require all home new and old to be done this way and not have a grandfather clause to existing homes. I do know that even a loose wire nut can cause them to trip. We do not install them in home theaters due to high current amps will trip them. I do have all out project inspected and in the 57 years of my family business we have never had an issue whether it be with the local inspectors of the local unions.





> I do know that even a loose wire nut can cause them to trip.


That is why you should read up on how they work.



> We do not install them in home theaters due to high current amps will trip them


It does not matter they are required by the code,,You're job is to enforce the code not make up silly reasons to ignore it.



> I do have all out project inspected


Then the wiring inspector should fail you every time you remove AFCI Breakers..and if he does not then he should not be an Electrical inspector..



> But if it was such an issue with safety they would require all home new and old to be done this way and not have a grandfather clause to existing homes


It is against the united states Constitution to make retroactive laws that is why exiting installs are grandfathered......


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

calboy said:


> COME ON! give me a reason that you do not have to read. I want you to explain your experience why they have to be there not because you read it has to be there. One must remember that the Code book is there to provided a safe installation for the consumer and can be over kill in practical use. Do I say throw out the code and do what you want, absolutely not. But in some cases the practical use of the code in the trade does not make sense.


 Our job is to enforce the Electrical code not make up excuses to ignore it.


> I want you to explain your experience why they have to be there not because you read it has to be there



I have 37 years in the trade..And the Electrical inspectors around here enforce the code..:thumbup:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

calboy said:


> .........We all know that Arc-fault protection works like a GFCI in which potential between wires will cause a trip...........



You need to go back to school.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

480sparky said:


> You need to go back to school.


 I agree with that..:thumbup:


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## calboy (Feb 13, 2011)

HARRY304E said:


> Our job is to enforce the Electrical code not make up excuses to ignore it.
> 
> 
> 
> I have 37 years in the trade..And the Electrical inspectors around here enforce the code..:thumbup:


 Come on... explain your experience hence the technical issue at hand and why they are needed.. Quit hiding behind the words of a book and use your so called 37 years experience.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

calboy said:


> COME ON! give me a reason that you do not have to read.





calboy said:


> Quit hiding behind the words of a book.......


Your logic that you know better than the code book holds absolutely NO water. 

If you think you don't have to follow the code, or that you know better than the code, then you are in the WRONG business mister.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

calboy said:


> COME ON! give me a reason that you do not have to read. I want you to explain your experience why they have to be there not because you read it has to be there. One must remember that the Code book is there to provided a safe installation for the consumer and can be over kill in practical use. Do I say throw out the code and do what you want, absolutely not. But in some cases the practical use of the code in the trade does not make sense.


 

what a HACK


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

calboy, I don't care about how long your family has been in business. How long are YOU in the trade???


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## calboy (Feb 13, 2011)

Speedy Petey said:


> Your logic that you know better than the code book holds absolutely NO water.
> 
> If you think you don't have to follow the code, or that you know better than the code, then you are in the WRONG business mister.


 I knew this would ruff feathers but it isn't an issue of knowing better then the code rather then the practicality at hand with arc-fault in a circuit. We all know how to read the code but the question is the technicality of the code that pertains to arc-fault. I have been in this trade my whole life and as a third generation electrician What is written isn't always practical.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

HARRY304E said:


> That is why you should read up on how they work.
> It is against the united states Constitution to make retroactive laws that is why exiting installs are grandfathered......



Not all states allow things to be grandfathered. The NEC moved the "grandfather clause" to a different section a cycle or two ago I think. Most things here are allowed to be grandfathered others are required to be brought up to current code.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

calboy said:


> I knew this would ruff feathers but it isn't an issue of knowing better then the code rather then the practicality at hand with arc-fault in a circuit. We all know how to read the code but the question is the technicality of the code that pertains to arc-fault. I have been in this trade my whole life and as a third generation electrician What is written isn't always practical.



You are really gonna hate the 2011 code.....:laughing:

(B) Branch Circuit Extensions or Modifications — Dwelling
Units. In any of the areas specified in 210.12(A), where
branch-circuit wiring is modified, replaced, or extended, the
branch circuit shall be protected by one of the following:
(1) A listed combination-type AFCI located at the origin of
the branch circuit
(2) A listed outlet branch-circuit type AFCI located at the
first receptacle outlet of the existing branch circuit


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

calboy said:


> Come on... explain your experience hence the technical issue at hand and why they are needed.. Quit hiding behind the words of a book and use your so called 37 years experience.


Beause if you had a copy of the NEC you would Know the awnser..

Do you what the NFPA stands for? the NEC has been around since 1897..

They know what they are talking about..the popose of the NEC is to prevent Electrical Fires and other hazards coused by the use of Electrical wiring in the home...


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

jwjrw said:


> You are really gonna hate the 2011 code.....:laughing:
> 
> (B) Branch Circuit Extensions or Modifications — Dwelling
> Units. In any of the areas specified in 210.12(A), where
> ...


Good one...:laughing::laughing:


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

calboy said:


> I knew this would ruff feathers but it isn't an issue of knowing better then the code rather then the practicality at hand with arc-fault in a circuit. We all know how to read the code but the question is the technicality of the code that pertains to arc-fault. I have been in this trade my whole life and as a third generation electrician What is written isn't always practical.


No kidding. I hate AFCIs as well, but thing is they are a fact of our lives at this point, and only getting worse. 

Live by the book or find a profession that has no rules. :whistling2:


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## calboy (Feb 13, 2011)

jwjrw said:


> You are really gonna hate the 2011 code.....:laughing:
> 
> (B) Branch Circuit Extensions or Modifications — Dwelling
> Units. In any of the areas specified in 210.12(A), where
> ...


 I will comply with all local and state codes, thats not a problem. I was trying to get a convo on the technical aspect of the topic instead of a code quoting contest on the subject. Let's say a hands on from experience chat on why they should be used. I can tell ya around these parts arc-fault isn't a common function of a circuit. it may be code but hardly used and inspected and passed.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

calboy said:


> I was trying to get a convo on the technical aspect of the topic instead of a code quoting contest on the subject. Let's say a hands on from experience chat on why they should be used.


In new construction I see no real reason.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

calboy said:


> I will comply with all local and state codes, thats not a problem. I was trying to get a convo on the technical aspect of the topic instead of a code quoting contest on the subject. Let's say a hands on from experience chat on why they should be used. I can tell ya around these parts arc-fault isn't a common function of a circuit. it may be code but hardly used and inspected and passed.


 

Ok,,,,drop the code. Let's talk field experience. How many times have you wired a new house, turn on the new AFCI breaker and it trips?. It force you to go find (somewhere) there is a grounded conductor and a grounding conductor touching together. Without AFCI's you would have never know it. There are thousands of accidental, illegal N-G bonds in boxes all over america that would be alot safer if they had been AFCI'd from the start.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

calboy said:


> I will comply with all local and state codes, thats not a problem. I was trying to get a convo on the technical aspect of the topic instead of a code quoting contest on the subject. Let's say a hands on from experience chat on why they should be used. I can tell ya around these parts arc-fault isn't a common function of a circuit. it may be code but hardly used and inspected and passed.


Thank to joe tedesco for the videos..:thumbsup:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

*Proclomation*

Be it known here to all present that the following member:

 calboy

has self-proclaimed himself a better electrician
and a more knowledgeable one than all the
persons listed in pages 70-9 through 70-20
of the 2008 National Electrical Code, as Published by the
National Fire Protection Agency, Massachusetts, USA.

​


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

calboy said:


> I will comply with all local and state codes, thats not a problem. I was trying to get a convo on the technical aspect of the topic instead of a code quoting contest on the subject. Let's say a hands on from experience chat on why they should be used. I can tell ya around these parts arc-fault isn't a common function of a circuit. it may be code but hardly used and inspected and passed.


How are you complying by removing the arc fault and replacing with a regular breaker?

What you are missing is that they are required. That is why they should be used. I don't know or care if they work. I do what I have to do to stay in business and prosper. I make about 10.00 on an arc fault breaker and only 2 on a regular breaker. The law states we have to use them here. No discussion changes that.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Ok,,,,drop the code. Let's talk field experience. *How many times have you wired a new house, turn on the new AFCI breaker and it trips?*. It force you to go find (somewhere) there is a grounded conductor and a grounding conductor touching together. Without AFCI's you would have never know it. There are thousands of accidental, illegal N-G bonds in boxes all over america that would be alot safer if they had been AFCI'd from the start.



Sounds like it happens to him often.....:whistling2::laughing:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

I wanna hear calboys' take on megging circuits before energizing them. :whistling2:


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## calboy (Feb 13, 2011)

Speedy Petey said:


> No kidding. I hate AFCIs as well, but thing is they are a fact of our lives at this point, and only getting worse.
> 
> :whistling2:


 This is basically my point.. I understand the code but question some of it through experience. Arc-fault is one of these issues that has me questioning the code.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

calboy said:


> This is basically my point.. I understand the code but question some of it through experience. Arc-fault is one of these issues that has me questioning the code.



If you feel that strong about it, then submit a proposal for the '14 NEC, along with your documentation to support it.


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## calboy (Feb 13, 2011)

480sparky said:


> I wanna hear calboys' take on megging circuits before energizing them. :whistling2:


 So you want me to explain megging a circuit to find potentual to ground?


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

calboy said:


> I will comply with all local and state codes, thats not a problem. I was trying to get a convo on the technical aspect of the topic instead of a code quoting contest on the subject. Let's say a hands on from experience chat on why they should be used. I can tell ya around these parts arc-fault isn't a common function of a circuit. it may be code but hardly used and inspected and passed.


What part of CA is that?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

calboy said:


> So you want me to explain megging a circuit to find potentual to ground?



Please do. You're obviously so much smarter than the rest of us dolts.


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

calboy said:


> Now that you can look up the code, explain what is crazy about removing the arc fault with out going to the code book. I will rely on my years of experience and proper training then what is stated in a code book that is over kill or grandfathered. Explain what the danger is? You install them with no issues in a new home and leave. then after a while the owner starts having tripping issues and do you get called back to repair them, I bet not.


You do know that arc faults trip when you get the grounded conductor wrapped up with another ciruit, right?


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

I hope AFCI catches on. That's a lot of work for residential guys!!!

Funny that I haven't seen any cool panel pictures from you guys who are jumping all over this guy for thinking AFCIs everwhere in the house is overkill.

But hey, mob on!


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Calboy,

I think AFCIs are a crock, but that being said, whenever I've seen one trip, it's been because of a legitimate wiring problem. In my case, these have always been ground faults of some kind that needed to be repaired. 

I'm sure there are devices out there that do nuisance trip on arc-detection, but if I were you I'd troubleshoot the circuit before just randomly swapping out breakers. You could be simply hiding a problem, not correcting it, which is probably why guys are jumping on you.

Next time put a GFCI on the circuit and see if it holds. If it doesn't, there's a wiring problem somewhere.

-John


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## ColoradoMaster3768 (Jan 16, 2010)

calboy said:


> This is basically my point.. I understand the code but question some of it through experience. Arc-fault is one of these issues that has me questioning the code.


Calboy, through experience I too can say with confidence that you're not the only one struggling to meet those lofty minimums established by the _Code_.


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## Smoke (Feb 25, 2011)

calboy said:


> Well here a doosey in my neck of the woods. All convenience circuits located on a residential property new construction shall be either GFCI protected are Arc fault.
> 
> We all know code evolve such as GFCI shall be locate in all wet locations, garages and within 6-feet of water to GFCI shall be installed in all wet locations, laundry areas, garages and to all convenience outlets in kitchens and kitchen islands.
> 
> ...


arc faults are mandatory, problem is the breakers need to be updated regularly to accommodate new electronics or you can get nuisance tripping. siemens made a batch of breakers in 2009 (#3) that were to spec but trip frequently. we installed hundreds on one job and get daily service calls because of tripping breakers. we replace them all with the updated model (#4), problem solved. sux to be siemens they eat the bill on every call lol


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Smoke said:


> arc faults are mandatory, problem is the breakers need to be updated regularly to accommodate new electronics or you can get nuisance tripping. siemens made a batch of breakers in 2009 (#3) that were to spec but trip frequently. we installed hundreds on one job and get daily service calls because of tripping breakers. we replace them all with the updated model (#4), problem solved. sux to be siemens they eat the bill on every call lol


You're full of it. AFCI breakers do not need to be "updated regularly". You got a bum batch of breakers. Big deal. Every manufacturer of anything has made a bum batch of whatever at some point in time. I can say with 100% confidence that every AFCI breaker I have come across that was reported to be "nuisance tripping" was tripping for a bonafide reason. That reason is sometimes very difficult to decode.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

calboy said:


> So you want me to explain megging a circuit to find potentual to ground?


Just try that on European side you will have heckva a time to get it passed without using the megger they are very strict with it.

And we are not far behind the NEC code in few spots and few spots we are ahead of NEC codes so it will varies a bit but just keep your ears open what the UK electrician done with their testing and their requirement and I can really throw French regulations to ya if I am good mood.

Merci.
Marc


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## kbsparky (Sep 20, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> ... I can say with 100% confidence that every AFCI breaker I have come across that was reported to be "nuisance tripping" was tripping for a bonafide reason. That reason is sometimes very difficult to decode.


Funny, my experiences with this has been exactly the opposite. Most of the service calls I have had with nuisance tripping AFCI breakers have been due to _bad breakers_, and not wiring issues. They would trip out with _no wires _attached to the load terminals at all!!


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## kbsparky (Sep 20, 2007)

jwjrw said:


> You are really gonna hate the 2011 code.....:laughing:
> 
> (B) Branch Circuit Extensions or Modifications — Dwelling
> Units. In any of the areas specified in 210.12(A), where
> ...


How will they deal with all the MWBCs out there? There are very few manufacturers that have a 2-pole AFCI breaker, and none that have a viable AFCI receptacle that I am aware of.....


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## Smoke (Feb 25, 2011)

MDShunk said:


> You're full of it. AFCI breakers do not need to be "updated regularly". You got a bum batch of breakers. Big deal. Every manufacturer of anything has made a bum batch of whatever at some point in time. I can say with 100% confidence that every AFCI breaker I have come across that was reported to be "nuisance tripping" was tripping for a bonafide reason. That reason is sometimes very difficult to decode.


lol maybe you misunderstood, im not saying you need to go around replacing them every year, but every year manufacturers update the breakers as needed and if you have nuisance tripping a newer model may fix the problem.
siemens for instance, is on model 4 of the same breaker. (and no we didnt get a bad batch, they made them f'd up for a hole year lol)
this is what the factory told me directly, so you can put that in your pipe and smoke it.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

kbsparky said:


> How will they deal with all the MWBCs out there? There are very few manufacturers that have a 2-pole AFCI breaker, and none that have a viable AFCI receptacle that I am aware of.....



The receptacles are supposed to be coming out.Of course they were supposed to be coming out years ago too. At least 2 manufactures make 2 pole arc fault breakers. (GE's is 2 SP tied together according to Dennis, Seimens is the only other one I know of). I don't think anyone's arcs are listed to be in other panel brands so I assume the are counting on the receps being available.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Smoke said:


> so you can put that in your pipe and smoke it.


 

I'll get right on that:whistling2:


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

My experiences with arc faults are similar, ground/neutral connection at the device. Find it, fix it done. You're questioning the very system which we all work within. Most electricians have cheated and as such are sinners. But we are reformed now and when someone, you in this case bring up selective following of the code as we feel fit, we'll burn you at the stake.:laughing:


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## Smoke (Feb 25, 2011)

MDShunk said:


> You're full of it. AFCI breakers do not need to be "updated regularly". You got a bum batch of breakers. Big deal. Every manufacturer of anything has made a bum batch of whatever at some point in time. I can say with 100% confidence that every AFCI breaker I have come across that was reported to be "nuisance tripping" was tripping for a bonafide reason. That reason is sometimes very difficult to decode.


i had a few more variables pop into my head while i was at work today.
1, do you know it is the same breaker you replaced when you say it is bad?
2, is it from the same lot, or box?
3, did you try it on another circuit to prove it was the breaker?.
my point was the factory makes changes/fixes and you may be installing a breaker that is the same model but a newer version.
one can easily see that in this instance, a newer version of the same breaker, could indicate a bad breaker when in fact it was a technology conflict that they resolved.

i am curious to hear if you tried any of these supposed "bad breakers" on other circuits.

frequently i am a moron, but i am rarely stupid or whatever you said.


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## cthermond (Feb 10, 2011)

calboy said:


> Now that you can look up the code, explain what is crazy about removing the arc fault with out going to the code book. I will rely on my years of experience and proper training then what is stated in a code book that is over kill or grandfathered. Explain what the danger is? You install them with no issues in a new home and leave. then after a while the owner starts having tripping issues and do you get called back to repair them, I bet not.


 The arc-fault breakers can be a problem. I did a room addition that required an arc fault circuit in the bedroom. The customer said every time that he plugged his blueray system into the arc-fault circuit it would trip the breaker. He had it plugged into another room without arc-fault protection and it worked fine. Interestingly the existing part of the house has conventional breakers, for twenty years or so with no problems. There was no problem in the circuit, it was the arc-fault breaker. I understand your problem, and with the new requirements it could get worse.


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

When I first heard heard about them years ago, I hated the idea. The same thing with TR receptacles. 

I have only installed 2 afci's in my life. I wired the damn loft. In THHN and flex. I knew there was no problems. The damn thing kept tripping. I knew it had to be the shop vac or a faulty breaker. Well guess what, it turned one of the hairs on the grounded conductor found it's way out of the wire nut and bonded with the metal box. That was 3 years ago and not one nuisance trip. 

Now I look at it as a $ maker. Breakers are 10x's the cost, outlets are double. That's more money in my pocket. I am all for code changes. Now, how do I submit a proposal for the 2014 code that all receptacles need to be those $147 ones?


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

knowshorts said:


> ...Now I look at it as a $ maker. Breakers are 10x's the cost, outlets are double. That's more money in my pocket. I am all for code changes....


 It's great to be able to spin that in your favor, but my problem is that you shouldn't have to spin it. TR receptacles can stand on their own as a solution to a real problem. AFCIs cannot. I've never seen one trip where I found an arcing fault to be the problem. I think it's voodoo technology, and the code should not be in the business of selling products to us.

-John


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## Smoke (Feb 25, 2011)

knowshorts said:


> When I first heard heard about them years ago, I hated the idea. The same thing with TR receptacles.
> 
> I have only installed 2 afci's in my life. I wired the damn loft. In THHN and flex. I knew there was no problems. The damn thing kept tripping. I knew it had to be the shop vac or a faulty breaker. Well guess what, it turned one of the hairs on the grounded conductor found it's way out of the wire nut and bonded with the metal box. That was 3 years ago and not one nuisance trip.
> 
> Now I look at it as a $ maker. Breakers are 10x's the cost, outlets are double. That's more money in my pocket. I am all for code changes. Now, how do I submit a proposal for the 2014 code that all receptacles need to be those $147 ones?


I dont do service work and i have never installed one of these breakers, yet i have been on jobs where our company has installed nearly 1000.
my take on the hole situation is, you let hacks get away with sub standard work for the last 50 years and it warrants a breaker of this type.
dont allow stabbing feed through or stabbing in general among other things and the fire risk that surely started this epidemic would be non existent.
just my opinion...

the fact that you are making great money on this is gud, the fact that it is likely due to a history of poor workmanship represents our trade poorly.
fortunately very few will have the insight that i do to realize it...


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## kbsparky (Sep 20, 2007)

jwjrw said:


> The receptacles are supposed to be coming out.Of course they were supposed to be coming out years ago too. At least 2 manufactures make 2 pole arc fault breakers. (GE's is 2 SP tied together according to Dennis, Seimens is the only other one I know of). I don't think anyone's arcs are listed to be in other panel brands so I assume the are counting on the receps being available.


Maybe so for 2 manufacturers, but there are problems here:

1) Most of the stuf around here is Square D or Cutler-Hammer. 
2) Take an existing panel full of tandems, and try ... just TRY to install a full-sized or even a double pole full sized breaker in there. It ain't happening.... :hang:


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## 2towbot (Nov 19, 2008)

kbsparky said:


> Maybe so for 2 manufacturers, but there are problems here:
> 
> 1) Most of the stuf around here is Square D or Cutler-Hammer.
> 2) Take an existing panel full of tandems, and try ... just TRY to install a full-sized or even a double pole full sized breaker in there. It ain't happening.... :hang:


It's subpanel time!


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## pesdfw (Jun 23, 2010)

I personally don't like arc fault breakers ... but I do like having my license. I don't like GFI plugs either, but the code doesn't care what I like or don't like ... I still do things the right way.


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