# Industry feedback - Opportunity or Carrot Dangling



## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Is this a fairly normal arrangement? Yes. Is it legal? Possibly yes, possibly no.

The courts have ruled that deminimus time need not be compensated (like time the few minutes it takes to change your uniform at work, answering a quick text or phone call on your off hours, or getting a pass down from another shift). If you're required to pick up a truck at the shop and return it to the shop, the time clock starts when you get the truck and ends when you return the truck. This EXACT scenario has been ruled on a great many times. 

I see three options for you if they want you to pickup and return the truck each day:
1) Do what your employer asks, and take it as an opportunity to boost the resume, laws aside.
2) Tell them you feel it is a fairly basic and fundamental violation of labor law and either refuse or renegotiate when time clock starts and stops. 
3) Do what they ask for a period of time (perhaps a long time), with full intentions of filing a claim at a later date with your state's labor department and take the easy windfall.

Keep in mind that if they give you a "take home truck", the time clock starts when you arrive at the first job of the day (or the shop to pick up materials/marching orders) and ends when you finish the last job. With a take home truck, the commute time to the first job of the day and back home from the last job is not required to be paid time. When you have to pick up the truck at the shop and return it to the shop, that makes all the difference in the world as to what paid time and commute time is. I'm a little foggy, from your opening post, as to whether they're giving you a take home truck or asking you to pickup and return the truck each day. If it's a take home truck, what they propose is legal (and normal). This is the one of the primary motivating factors for service outfits to give their guys a take home truck.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Right or wrong it's common practice to tell people to show up 15 minutes before punch in in an effort to have everyone there and ready to roll at start time, rather than waiting 15 minutes until people roll in. The trip to the shop off the clock at the end of the day is chiseling. It's also pointless, you're starting at the shop in the morning anyway. 

I think it's a bad practice, whether it's legal or not is a matter for a lawyer, probably mainly state law. Either way, I'd do two things. 

One, document your time in detail - what time you leave home, what time you arrive at the shop, how much time you spend waiting to work, when you leave the last job each day, etc. The best thing is probably to use an app that tracks this for you, with GPS and timestamps it should be dead accurate. Use an app that lets you get the data out of the app one way or another - not enough to just have it available to view on your phone. If you think you're going to go to court, keep a paper handwritten log too, just buy a little thread bound pocket notebook and keep it in your pocket. 

Two, think about the big picture and the bottom line, the numbers on your pay stub, the hours between when you leave the house and the time you get home at night, and the experience you're getting. Decide if you can do better before you burn it down. 

There's very little chance I'd burn it down until the 30 to 90 day probation period ends, but don't let them drag this vague probation period out forever.


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## SISYPHUS (Aug 13, 2018)

One could advocate either worker or employer side of this

But that old addage applies _either_ way

He who_ lives_ by the nickle, will _die_ by the nickle

:vs_cool:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

sabe6 said:


> Hey Crew,
> 
> So, I feel I'm making progress as an apprentice. Having recently left the new construction Resi world for a more well rounding opportunity with a company that does Resi Remo, Light commercial and Industrial/controls. Recently they've said that they would like to get me up to speed into doing service work, mostly the light remo and commercial stuff to start. I now have to drive to the shop, pick up a work vehicle which they intend to let me keep at my own house if I keep up good work over a month or two. However, I'm being asked to arrive 645am, 15 minutes earlier than previous commercial assignments, but not getting paid for the vehicle pick up time, as the start clock still apparently begins at 7am. Furthermore, my hourly wage stops at the end of the last billable hour at the work site. I than have to relocate the vehicle back to the shop (30-60min normally) without getting paid. Than have to make my way home. As I'm only a year into the constructions trades, is this an opportunity or commonplace amongst the industry? *Or is this another form of wage theft which is rampant in our capitalist nation*.
> 
> Appreciate the Feedback.


Something can't be theft if you offer it, if you agree to it.

You know the deal very well, you just wrote it out for us. So if you agree to that deal, why complain?

You don't need the government to come in and tell them that they cant do it. Just walk away. Or take the job. Either way it's your choice.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

It isn't fair but look at the experience you're getting. My advice is to stay quiet, be a team guy and think about what your resume will look like in a couple of years.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> Something can't be theft if you offer it, if you agree to it.
> 
> You know the deal very well, you just wrote it out for us. So if you agree to that deal, why complain?
> 
> You don't need the government to come in and tell them that they cant do it. Just walk away. Or take the job. Either way it's your choice.


Exactly. It's non-negotiable. Take it or leave it. No job is perfect.


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

All depends on the company. Some will make your last service call close to the shop others will make the last call as far away as possible.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

gpop said:


> All depends on the company. Some will make your last service call close to the shop others will make the last call as far away as possible.


I never much minded, myself, but I always liked to have the one with the highest likelihood of getting totally filthy at the end of the day (if possible).


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

It's best if you don't break down every hour and instead look at it as a whole.

Maybe they didn't pay you for those hours driving. But in total you were out of the house for 10 hours per day and made $##,### per year doing something that you enjoyed. The next job might pay you for that time, but less per hour. 

It's a game of give and take.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

HackWork said:


> It's best if you don't break down every hour and instead look at it as a whole.
> 
> Maybe they didn't pay you for those hours driving. But in total you were out of the house for 10 hours per day and made $##,### per year doing something that you enjoyed. The next job might pay you for that time, but less per hour.
> 
> It's a game of give and take.


Sort of how I always figured. If I was happy, that was the most important thing, to me. Sure, he could run the screws into them if he wanted to. Or he can take the experience and learn all he can. How they treat him, overall, will probably make the decision which route that should take. Does it make it right of them to take advantage like that? Is he a wuss for not standing his ground and barking about it for all to hear? I dunno. That's a decision he needs to make.


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

Look at it this way. That truck time is unpaid internship that should last "a month or two" as you state. Do a good job and you'll have a take home truck which has a value to it.

Are you going to screw up an opportunity over arguing over this? That's your choice.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

MikeFL said:


> Look at it this way. That truck time is unpaid internship that should last "a month or two" as you state. Do a good job and you'll have a take home truck which has a value to it...


Yup. Makes it even easier to do side work. :biggrin:


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

@sabe6, they said a month or two you can take home the truck right? So in a month or two, providing you like what your doing, tell them you would like to take the truck home as they said.

Better yet, if it is going well and you like that kind of work, ask for the truck sooner. 

Taking that truck home will save you quite a bit and waiting a couple of months for it isn't that bad IMO.

Also, on a construction site or any job for that matter you should be there 10 to 15 minutes before starting work IMO.


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## Switchgear277 (Mar 18, 2017)

MDShunk said:


> Is this a fairly normal arrangement? Yes. Is it legal? Possibly yes, possibly no.
> 
> The courts have ruled that deminimus time need not be compensated (like time the few minutes it takes to change your uniform at work, answering a quick text or phone call on your off hours, or getting a pass down from another shift). If you're required to pick up a truck at the shop and return it to the shop, the time clock starts when you get the truck and ends when you return the truck. This EXACT scenario has been ruled on a great many times.
> 
> ...


Totally agree if you this company is violating labor laws


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

One thing that no one has mentioned is you are joining a company that may have written and un-written understandings with there original staff.

Where i work we average 42hrs a week. When you take your vacation you are payed 48hrs for the week. Now if you know the history you would find that we use to average 56 hours a week and as a un-written agreement they payed 48hrs a week vacation and we tried to keep our vacations during 4 months of the year. 

A new person would think it was unfair to try to keep vacation time during the down season (its 6 months long now), But they would be impressed to find that they get 8 hrs extra pay per week of vacation.

Until you start working there you might not be able to work out what deals have been made by former employees. Maybe in exchange for being off the clock during there home journey they were payed extra per hour or were given a different type of bonus. 

With in a few days you will know if the boss is screwing the employees. When ever i interview i always try to get a quick chat with someone working there during the show and tell.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

eddy current said:


> @sabe6, they said a month or two you can take home the truck right? So in a month or two, providing you like what your doing, tell them you would like to take the truck home as they said..


Or, if you have the guts, on the 61st day of this arrangement, just drive the truck home after the last job. After all, they already told you that you could after a month or two. If nothing is said, have someone follow you to work some day that week to get your POV home.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

I have never had anything like this ever happen to me, but I have never been a service union electrician. All was new construction.

Is the contactor asking or telling the guy to use his personal truck? I did not read every post here.
I would think the best way to handle it is to drive a car to work. 

I have never heard of this even with the non-union shops I have worked for.
Company always supplied certain things and working vehicles were never considered an option for the employee to provide.

Of course a car/truck allowance can be profitable. But I would never use my own vehicle to carry around supplies for them. 
It would seem the contractor is taking a very big gamble allowing an employee to use his own vehicle. What happens in an accident? You must declare that your vehicle is for personal use don't you? For insurance purposes?


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

*Apprentice???*



sabe6 said:


> Hey Crew,
> 
> So, I feel I'm making progress as an apprentice. .


What year, they may not break the rules about the truck, but as an apprentice don't you need to work under a jorneyman? Service is mostly just one person.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

just the cowboy said:


> What year, they may not break the rules about the truck, but as an apprentice don't you need to work under a jorneyman? Service is mostly just one person.


Many union companies bend the rules. I worked as a service guy on my own truck and was only an apprentice. If I had an issue, there was a great crew of service guys I could call for help. Not saying it is allowed, but it is done everywhere I’m sure


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

Interesting comments...


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

just the cowboy said:


> What year, they may not break the rules about the truck, but as an apprentice don't you need to work under a jorneyman? Service is mostly just one person.


Exactly. Why isn't the journeyman driving his/their truck and you ride along.
You cannot be working alone can you?


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## gnuuser (Jan 13, 2013)

asking you to show up 15 minutes early is normal and has its advantages,
during this time the boss can give you the heads up on any changes to scheduling and tasks. as well as give you a little time to get set for your task. 

my crew would come in 15 min early and i would hand out the assignments, get their input on projects, enjoy a cup of coffee and generally have a quick bs session with them.
its also a good time to assess the condition of your tools before starting.


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

HackWork said:


> Something can't be theft if you offer it, if you agree to it.
> 
> You know the deal very well, you just wrote it out for us. So if you agree to that deal, why complain?
> 
> You don't need the government to come in and tell them that they cant do it. Just walk away. Or take the job. Either way it's your choice.


His time should stop when he gets back to the shop. Especially if it indeed has been ruled on. He would have a legal right to compensation for his time. There isn't "mutually agreed upon" exceptions to labor laws like that.

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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

TGGT said:


> His time should stop when he gets back to the shop. Especially if it indeed has been ruled on. He would have a legal right to compensation for his time. There isn't "mutually agreed upon" exceptions to labor laws like that.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


Apparently you didn't understand what I wrote.

I wasn't speaking to a goodie-2-shoes who wants to follow every law to the exact letter. I was speaking to someone who was serious about getting into the trade with a good company.


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

HackWork said:


> Apparently you didn't understand what I wrote.
> 
> I wasn't speaking to a goodie-2-shoes who wants to follow every law to the exact letter. I was speaking to someone who was serious about getting into the trade with a good company.


Sure I did, my statement still stands.

To the OP, as others mentioned, track your time. Text messages to your girlfriend about when you arrived at the shop and when you'll be home are an easy way to track it. This way, if they are just dangling the carrot and decide not to give you the truck you can claim lost wages.

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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

TGGT said:


> Sure I did, my statement still stands.
> 
> To the OP, as others mentioned, track your time. Text messages to your girlfriend about when you arrived at the shop and when you'll be home are an easy way to track it. This way, if they are just dangling the carrot and decide not to give you the truck you can claim lost wages.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


That's cute, did your union teach you that tactic? And you wonder why they continue to loose marketshare.

Maybe he can make his own deal? 

Naw, forget that, we have someone else to take care of our responsibilities for us:


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

HackWork said:


> That's cute, did your union teach you that tactic? And you wonder why they continue to loose marketshare.
> 
> Maybe he can make his own deal?
> 
> View attachment 128884


I'm looking out for somebody that is already wary of being taken advantage of. I don't understand the hostility.

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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

TGGT said:


> I'm looking out for somebody that is already wary of being taken advantage of. I don't understand the hostility.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


Because if he agrees to the terms of the employment, he shouldn't go back later crying that it was against some overbearing law and try to get money. 

Doing what you said is what a weasel or a snake would do.

The laws are to protect innocent people from getting taken advantage of. He is not an unsuspecting person, he knows what's going on. So if he takes the job, he should honor the deal that he makes. What you suggest goes in the opposite direction and is using the law to take advantage of the contractor.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

HackWork said:


> Because if he agrees to the terms of the employment, he shouldn't go back later crying that it was against some overbearing law and try to get money.
> 
> Doing what you said is what a weasel or a snake would do.
> 
> The laws are to protect innocent people from getting taken advantage of. He is not an unsuspecting person, he knows what's going on. So if he takes the job, he should honor the deal that he makes. What you suggest goes in the opposite direction and is using the law to take advantage of the contractor.


So if his employer makes some deal with him that is actually against the law and the employee does or doesn’t know it, the employee is then a snake or weasel and taking advantage of his employer for then following the laws?

I’d say the employer is the snake or weasel as they 100% know the rules and is trying to take advantage of a new employee.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

eddy current said:


> So if his employer makes some deal with him that is actually against the law and the employee does or doesn’t know it


 The employee _does_ know it. He is reading it right here in this thread.



> the employee is then a snake or weasel and taking advantage of his employer for then following the laws?


 If the thread starter takes the job knowing that it may be against a labor law to do it the way _he agrees to do it_, then he has no leg to stand on later to say that it's against the law and he wants backpay. That is a slimy thing to do.



> I’d say the employer is the snake or weasel as they 100% know the rules and is trying to take advantage of a new employee.


The OP knows the rules too. Why would he agree to this employment if he has a problem with it?

It would be different if he didn't know that it was against the labor laws, but he does know. And now someone is telling him to agree to the deal, work and text your girlfriend everyday as evidence, then screw the employer over afterwards. That's shady as f*ck, it's a setup.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

HackWork said:


> The employee _does_ know it. He is reading it right here in this thread.
> 
> If the thread starter takes the job knowing that it may be against a labor law to do it the way _he agrees to do it_, then he has no leg to stand on later to say that it's against the law and he wants backpay. That is a slimy thing to do.
> 
> ...


I agree to do it that way is shady, but it sounds like he is just finding out now, in this thread, that it is not quite right, not when he agreed to the deal.

More importantly, the employer does know the rules and is offering a shady deal knowing that a new, young worker will take it wanting to advance in the trade. Now that is shady!


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

eddy current said:


> I agree to do it that way is shady, but it sounds like he is just finding out now, in this thread, that it is not quite right, not when he agreed to the deal.


Agreed.



> More importantly, the employer does know the rules and is offering a shady deal knowing that a new, young worker will take it wanting to advance in the trade. Now that is shady!


I'm not so sure that the employer does know the rules (since there are so many laws and they vary so much depending on state, municipality, etc.). But I won't say that they don't either. And I agree that if they know the rules and are trying to get over on someone, then that is wrong.

But if both parties know what the law says and still agree to do it their own way, then I don't see any problem.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

sabe6 said:


> Hey Crew,
> 
> * Or is this another form of wage theft which is rampant in our capitalist nation.*
> 
> Appreciate the Feedback.



This is how I came up and it sure as hell did not damage me, some of our apprentices have to drive 1-1/2-2 hours to a job in their own vehicles.

The statement in bold makes you sound like a union lawyer and will you post links to back up this statement.


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

This is from the Texas workforce commission. See your State laws.

Time spent traveling between worksites during a workday is compensable under*29 C.F.R. 785.38. 

For example, if a worker reports to the main office to start the day and is then told to report to another job site, all time spent traveling to that worksite and back again to the main office will be paid. 

Some workers normally report to a number of jobsites each day as part of their duties; all such time is compensable. If the worker does not have to report back to the main office after finishing at the last jobsite, but instead returns directly home, the time spent returning home is not compensable.

IMO, if unions had a better record of educating and backing working people there would be a higher demand for them.

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## Switchgear277 (Mar 18, 2017)

TGGT said:


> This is from the Texas workforce commission. See your State laws.
> 
> Time spent traveling between worksites during a workday is compensable under*29 C.F.R. 785.38.
> 
> ...


The union has a mandatory 5 year 
Apprentiship program with hands on and class room education . The ibew produces highly trained electricians . Compared to non union we’re their is no education required . So I don’t understand 
This comment 

Also union labor is used for big technical projects , power houses, bridges , stadiums , etc so theirs deff a demand for union labor on jobs were you want skilled craftsmanship 
By men that have served 5 years schooling and training , and have all their safety classes that union labors also provide osha classes , safety classes , etc 

And as far as backing wrking ppl 
The union is the only voice that 
The working man has , when a group of workers get together and are able to form a union they can bargain for good wages and benies .

In the union the men get annuity pension , healthcare , etc 

If that’s not backing the working class then I don’t know what is suddenly a lot of jobs have no retirement plans .


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Switchgear277 said:


> The union has a mandatory 5 year
> Apprentiship program with hands on and class room education . The ibew produces highly trained electricians . Compared to non union we’re their is no education required . So I don’t understand
> This comment
> 
> ...


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

Switchgear277 said:


> The union has a mandatory 5 year
> Apprentiship program with hands on and class room education . The ibew produces highly trained electricians . Compared to non union we’re their is no education required . So I don’t understand
> This comment
> 
> ...


Maybe your local is strong, but around here asking for the Steward, mentioning labor law, standing up to management even when it is legal and protected will get you terminated quick.

Mostly because our own don't even know what rights we have, from the bottom to the top.

"The hall won't back you." is a common phrase around here. It doesn't generate many enthusiastic envoys, it just proves what all the RtW supporters already believe. Despite that even RtW protects our right to organize, prohibits discrimination for being union and Federal labor protections still apply. RtW is not a good excuse for a local to be as weak as many are.

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