# GFCI receptacle next to electrical panel



## west shore electric (Sep 30, 2015)

Does anyone know a code article that says gfci receptacle must be next to a panel? Failed a final today for this one thing. I had a gfci receptacle 15 feet away....the panel is in a garage. Never had a problem with this. Unfortunately I wasn't there. The builder doesn't want me to ask the inspector for the article, he also isn't going to pay me to add the two gfci (duplex building).


----------



## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

I don't know of anything in nec backing that up. But at least it's a minor fix to get paid.


----------



## TRurak (Apr 10, 2016)

You do need a receptacle at the panel. I don't have my codebook handy but I would think 15 feet away would be fine


----------



## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Could it be because of spacing? Or that it's a garage so it needs to be gfi'd and ALSO spacing is an issue? I can't find anything yet. Maybe ahj says it's exterior?

Was this a new install or ??


----------



## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

210.52G1
One for each car space..

But I didn't not find anything about at panel location.


----------



## Hired Hand (Nov 29, 2014)

During the last continuing Ed class I went to I remember touching base on this as a new change. If I remember correctly it's at the main panel within x amount of feet. Not sure I'll have to look.


----------



## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

Look as hard as you want. She ain't there.


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

When did this happen?

Still on the 08 code cycle.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

west shore electric said:


> The builder doesn't want me to ask the inspector for the article, he also isn't going to pay me to add the two gfci (duplex building).


Sounds like a great builder to work for!


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

You should go into his office early in the morning and humiliate him in front of all the other inspectors. Then he will cut that out in the future, guaranteed. It will be a public service on your part, and the best thing anybody has done for him.


----------



## west shore electric (Sep 30, 2015)

Majewski said:


> Could it be because of spacing? Or that it's a garage so it needs to be gfi'd and ALSO spacing is an issue? I can't find anything yet. Maybe ahj says it's exterior?
> 
> Was this a new install or ??


It's new construction residential duplex. 1 car garage, I have a gfci receptacle 15 ft away in the garage. The builder said the inspector wants an outlet right next to the panel. Builder doesn't want me to ask him for the article number because he let him slide on other things (he doesn't want to get him upset). I said I'll have to bill for it. He says I should have one there. I told him it's a one car garage I only need one. 
My point is, these inspectors pull this s**t out of there a** and don't back it up.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

west shore electric said:


> It's new construction residential duplex. 1 car garage, I have a gfci receptacle 15 ft away in the garage. The builder said the inspector wants an outlet right next to the panel. Builder doesn't want me to ask him for the article number because he let him slide on other things (he doesn't want to get him upset). I said I'll have to bill for it. He says I should have one there. I told him it's a one car garage I only need one.
> My point is, these inspectors pull this s**t out of there a** and don't back it up.


I would tell the builder that you did it code compliantly and if he wants you do extra work to cover for the builders other problems, then the builder will have to pay you for your work.


----------



## millelec (Nov 20, 2010)

west shore electric said:


> It's new construction residential duplex. 1 car garage, I have a gfci receptacle 15 ft away in the garage. The builder said the inspector wants an outlet right next to the panel. Builder doesn't want me to ask him for the article number because he let him slide on other things (he doesn't want to get him upset). I said I'll have to bill for it. He says I should have one there. I told him it's a one car garage I only need one.
> My point is, these inspectors pull this s**t out of there a** and don't back it up.


The inspector is one issue, the fact that the builder is being a douche by not wanting you to challenge the inspector, as well as making you eat the costs to "make it right", *cough* is another. That sucks.


----------



## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

I think I'd make the changes and wait for payment. If and when you get paid, never work for this nutmunch again. If you don't get paid or get dinged on payment for some reason, start getting law advice from 1-800-lawyer.com or whatever.


----------



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

west shore electric said:


> It's new construction residential duplex. 1 car garage, I have a gfci receptacle 15 ft away in the garage. The builder said the inspector wants an outlet right next to the panel. Builder doesn't want me to ask him for the article number because he let him slide on other things (he doesn't want to get him upset). I said I'll have to bill for it. He says I should have one there. I told him it's a one car garage I only need one.
> My point is, these inspectors pull this s**t out of there a** and don't back it up.


And I want a million dollars. Tell him to pound sand. We get a form from the state that clearly tells what code section you violated.


----------



## JHFWIC (Mar 22, 2012)

west shore electric said:


> The builder doesn't want me to ask the inspector for the article (duplex building).


Why not, sounds like the Builder just wants 2 outlets and wants them for free.

I would call the Inspector, (and no matter what be civil.)


----------



## TRurak (Apr 10, 2016)

Looked in the 2014 NEC. Article 210.64. At least one 125 volt single phase, 15 or 20 ampere rated receptacle outlet shall be installed within 50 feet of the electrical service equipment. 

Exception: the receptacle outlet shall not be required to be installed in one and two family dwellings.

Go tell the inspector to pound sand........


----------



## splatz (May 23, 2015)

HackWork said:


> I would tell the builder that you did it code compliantly and if he wants you do extra work to cover for the builders other problems, then the builder will have to pay you for your work.





millelec said:


> The inspector is one issue, the fact that the builder is being a douche by not wanting you to challenge the inspector, as well as making you eat the costs to "make it right", *cough* is another. That sucks.


OK no doubt, you shouldn't have to work for free to appease the inspector on someone else's issues. On the other hand you don't want to quibble over chump change and hold up final payment and sometimes you give a customer a gift, he'll remember this more than a fruit basket at Christmas. (Especially if you remind him regularly how you saved his ass.) So a couple ways I might go with this. 

I might ask him what other sub has the issues with the inspector, hand him a bill for the change and ask if he can make a small adjustment to take this out of their final payment. Tell him don't worry about it if he can't. Don't make a big deal out of it and hold up final payment. 

That would be fair, but no fun. More likely I'd tell him I'll take care of it right away, do it right away, call him and tell him it's done, and inform him that he's taking me to lunch somewhere real nice. NO pizza cheap bastard. Someplace with waitresses, no plastic trays. Going to have an appetizer, too, just be prepared. Remind him 10 20 maybe 30 times how I saved his life. By the end of lunch he'd be begging to pay for a change order to shut me up.


----------



## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

Put the receptacle in and get your final payment. Before you cash his check write on the back, *“This check is deposited under protest, without prejudice, and with preservation of all rights of the payee against the drawer of this check.” *

Then bill him for the receptacle. You probably won't get paid, but you now have an excuse for not warranting any of your work until he pays it.

...and I forbid you to work for this contractor again.


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

This all sounds more like a _contractual_ snafu ,than anything _code_ related

Just curious if the job was '_garage subpanel_' OR '_garage subpanel & wire garage_' here....?

~CS~


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Why bother spending time looking in the book? Call the inspector and request the code section.

There's nothing in the NEC that can be cited, but there may be a local amendment.


----------



## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

Does the violation say GFCI outlet or just "outlet" or "lighting outlet"? The reason I 
ask is he may mean lighting outlet per 210.70 (2) & (3) (2014 NFPA). AHJ would
really be streaching his interpretation of these codes .

The catch phrases would be "The lighting outlet shall be at or near the equipment
requiring service".

I would fight this , if he in fact is sighting you on these above code references.
To me , if you already have a wall switched light in each garage , then you've
met the code.

I cannot find a code that requires a gfci outlet next to the panel.


----------



## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

west shore electric said:


> *It's new construction residential duplex.* 1 car garage, I have a gfci receptacle 15 ft away in the garage. The builder said the inspector wants an outlet right next to the panel. Builder doesn't want me to ask him for the article number because he let him slide on other things (he doesn't want to get him upset). I said I'll have to bill for it. He says I should have one there. I told him it's a one car garage I only need one.
> My point is, these inspectors pull this s**t out of there a** and don't back it up.





chicken steve said:


> This all sounds more like a _contractual_ snafu ,than anything _code_ related
> 
> Just curious if the job was '_garage subpanel_' OR '_garage subpanel & wire garage_' here....?
> 
> ~CS~


See OP's 2nd post. New construction duplex with a 1 car garage each, thus 2 additional receptacles.


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

I would probably put the receptacle in, but I would definitely call the inspector and ask what his reasoning was. I would just say that you have looked all over the code book and it is really driving you crazy. It could be a local thing but if that is the case you should have known that or he should have caught it on RI.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

splatz said:


> OK no doubt, you shouldn't have to work for free to appease the inspector on someone else's issues. On the other hand you don't want to quibble over chump change and hold up final payment and sometimes you give a customer a gift, he'll remember this more than a fruit basket at Christmas. (Especially if you remind him regularly how you saved his ass.) So a couple ways I might go with this.
> 
> I might ask him what other sub has the issues with the inspector, hand him a bill for the change and ask if he can make a small adjustment to take this out of their final payment. Tell him don't worry about it if he can't. Don't make a big deal out of it and hold up final payment.
> 
> That would be fair, but no fun. More likely I'd tell him I'll take care of it right away, do it right away, call him and tell him it's done, and inform him that he's taking me to lunch somewhere real nice. NO pizza cheap bastard. Someplace with waitresses, no plastic trays. Going to have an appetizer, too, just be prepared. Remind him 10 20 maybe 30 times how I saved his life. By the end of lunch he'd be begging to pay for a change order to shut me up.


What you said makes perfect sense, and is probably the "right" thing to do.

But the principle of it is what would continue to eat me inside. I would feel weak, as if I just allowed a bully to walk all over me. 

So if I ended up doing it just to move things along, I would make it clear to the builder that I would never work for him again.


----------



## TRurak (Apr 10, 2016)

Is this 2014 NEC? If so see my post about 210.64


----------



## TRurak (Apr 10, 2016)

210.64 is shaded gray which means it's a new addition for 2014 I believe


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

TRurak said:


> Is this 2014 NEC? If so see my post about 210.64


He already has a receptacle 15 feet away anyway. The inspector is either calling a local amendment or just plain wrong. Either way, discussing it with the inspector would be the correct option. The more you allow inspectors to make bad calls unquestioned, the more they are going to do it.


----------



## TRurak (Apr 10, 2016)

HackWork said:


> He already has a receptacle 15 feet away anyway. The inspector is either calling a local amendment or just plain wrong. Either way, discussing it with the inspector would be the correct option. The more you allow inspectors to make bad calls unquestioned, the more they are going to do it.


210.64 has an exception that states the receptacle isn't required in 1 and 2 family dwellings...........


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

HackWork said:


> He already has a receptacle 15 feet away anyway. The inspector is either calling a local amendment or just plain wrong. Either way, discussing it with the inspector would be the correct option. The more you allow inspectors to make bad calls unquestioned, the more they are going to do it.


Dead on. You don't need to get all huffy with the inspector just ask him a simple question like you really want to know. Then ask him where the code section is because it was driving you crazy that you couldn't find it.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

TRurak said:


> 210.64 has an exception that states the receptacle isn't required in 1 and 2 family dwellings...........


Yes, as I said, it doesn't matter either way since he has the receptacle 15 feet away.


----------



## splatz (May 23, 2015)

HackWork said:


> But the principle of it is what would continue to eat me inside. I would feel weak, as if I just allowed a bully to walk all over me.


That's what the free lunch and the ball busting I mentioned was about  

But in reality I bet you might or might not feel that way. 

If they guy gave you $20,000 of reasonably profitable work, was decent to work with, and had more work for you in the future, you wouldn't feel like you'd been beat. 

If the guy was a difficult to deal with from day one, and beat you down so hard on price you might have been better off doing other work, and / or you just don't like him, it might stick in your craw to do this. But it isn't the one thing. This would be the straw that broke the camel's back. You really aren't severing the relationship because of a fifteen minute, ten dollar job.


----------



## splatz (May 23, 2015)

HackWork said:


> What you said makes perfect sense, and is probably the "right" thing to do.


Movie quote like the other thread: 

"That would be pride, fcukin wit you."


----------



## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

HackWork said:


> He already has a receptacle 15 feet away anyway. The inspector is either calling a local amendment or just plain wrong. Either way, discussing it with the inspector would be the correct option. The more you allow inspectors to make bad calls unquestioned, the more they are going to do it.


And it plainly says it does not apply to single and two family dwellings in the
exception.


----------



## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

I wonder what the odds are that if and when OP does the fix, the ahj comes back and says it needs to be afci device. lol jk


----------



## FaultCurrent (May 13, 2014)

Chickenstuff issues like this happen all the time. It's an aggravation and the principle of the whole deal is wrong.

I'd call the inspector and put in the damn receptacle. Tell the inspector it was CS and wrong, you did it anyway to make the owner happy, but it cost you money. 

Keeping the general happy is worth more than a damn extra plug costs, price of doing business.


----------



## power (Feb 27, 2012)

It's not expensive to put a receptacle beside the panel, and here it doesn't have to be GFCI. It's just a breaker, 5 feet of Romex, box and plug.....done.


----------



## jw0445 (Oct 9, 2009)

From the 2011 code

(G) Basements, Garages, and Accessory Buildings. For
a one-family dwelling, the following provisions shall apply:
(1) At least one receptacle outlet, in addition to those for
specific equipment, shall be installed in each basement,
in each attached garage, and in each detached garage or
accessory building with electric power.
(2) Where a portion of the basement is finished into one or
more habitable rooms, each separate unfinished portion
shall have a receptacle


----------



## west shore electric (Sep 30, 2015)

HackWork said:


> Sounds like a great builder to work for!


Worst ever! Painful to get paid. Literally have to chase my money down. Takes more man hours to get the money then to do the job. Typical GC....wants the job done now, but wants to pay later.


----------



## west shore electric (Sep 30, 2015)

TRurak said:


> Looked in the 2014 NEC. Article 210.64. At least one 125 volt single phase, 15 or 20 ampere rated receptacle outlet shall be installed within 50 feet of the electrical service equipment.
> 
> Exception: the receptacle outlet shall not be required to be installed in one and two family dwellings.
> 
> Go tell the inspector to pound sand........


Thanks! I had found it but ended up just putting them in the next day, even though I had one by code in the garage, which was also 15 feet away from the panel. Final outcome was the inspector said if the homeowner put a refrigerator in the garage the receptacle would be blocked. Can you believe that sh*t!?


----------



## west shore electric (Sep 30, 2015)

power said:


> It's not expensive to put a receptacle beside the panel, and here it doesn't have to be GFCI. It's just a breaker, 5 feet of Romex, box and plug.....done.


It's the principle


----------



## west shore electric (Sep 30, 2015)

power said:


> It's not expensive to put a receptacle beside the panel, and here it doesn't have to be GFCI. It's just a breaker, 5 feet of Romex, box and plug.....done.


It's the principal


----------



## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

west shore electric said:


> Thanks! I had found it but ended up just putting them in the next day, even though I had one by code in the garage, which was also 15 feet away from the panel. Final outcome was the inspector said if the homeowner put a refrigerator in the garage the receptacle would be blocked. Can you believe that sh*t!?


Stupid. In rebuttle, what if said home owner put a fridge in front of EVERY receptacle? Big dummy.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

west shore electric said:


> Thanks! I had found it but ended up just putting them in the next day, even though I had one by code in the garage, which was also 15 feet away from the panel. Final outcome was the inspector said if the homeowner put a refrigerator in the garage the receptacle would be blocked. Can you believe that sh*t!?



So by that logic, you'll need to add more receps in the kitchen 'cause the HO might put a microwave in front of one.

And other one still in the kitchen, because they have a coffee maker covering one up.

And yet one more because there's a mixer on the counter covering up yet another one.

And more receps in the living room. Because the HO might put a sofa in front of one.

And more receps in each bedroom. Because the HO might put a bed in front of one.

And more receps in the basement. Because the HO might put a freezer in front of one.

And another duplex for the laundry. Because the HO WILL put a washer and dryer in front of the laundry receptacle.

And more receps in the home office. Because there might be a desk placed in from of one.

And more in the entry/foyer. Because some housewife will want a small desk there and cover one up.

And more...... ad nauseum, ad infinitum.


----------



## west shore electric (Sep 30, 2015)

Majewski said:


> Stupid. In rebuttle, what if said home owner put a fridge in front of EVERY receptacle? Big dummy.


I know right! Now on my garage outlet will be next to the panel if that is where the panel is.


----------



## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

west shore electric said:


> I know right! Now on my garage outlet will be next to the panel if that is where the panel is.


I sure hope for your sake you don't have to keep working for this schlum!


----------



## west shore electric (Sep 30, 2015)

480sparky said:


> So by that logic, you'll need to add more receps in the kitchen 'cause the HO might put a microwave in front of one.
> 
> And other one still in the kitchen, because they have a coffee maker covering one up.
> 
> ...


Lmao!!


----------



## donaldelectrician (Sep 30, 2010)

I remember when they wanted a Single Recpt. behind the reffer in the
garage when not GFI Recpt... to avoid using a GFCI and risk spoiling food
on an outage .

Can you still do that ?


Just saytn ...




Don


----------

