# Advice on if I should move away from this field?



## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

Hello everyone! I posted a thread a while ago here discussing career options. I recently worked as a helper doing the worst tasks and being treated as such. I quit my job after a week and a half realizing that this job wasn't for me. It's a long story but the way my old boss worked was very crappy for a lack of a better term. He tried to teach me how to hide boxes and exposed wires when the inspector came. How to make a make shift ground and when the ground is missing, how to hide it. I also got yelled at alot, he threatened to for me multiple times. I got shocked twice because he didn't want to tell me which breaker the circuit was on and said "the beepy testers are for pussies". He also never spliced anything but wirecapped the wires together which would make sense for example if you want to disconnect a pump or load instantly, you can by just unscrewing the wire nut. However, he did this for all the outlets in the house. He yelled at me for being scared when I wouldn't lean against an exposed live 480 panel used to power an ATS. He grabbed two legs of 277 live and used electrical tape to tie them together. I can list a whole number of other things but it is just not worth it. 

Maybe I was mis informed but do all electricians do this? I mean like the majority of them. Also, keep in mind I was the new guy and tried to get a job straight out of vocational school. I didn't know jack **** compared to the rest of the guys but I really wanted to and enjoyed learning. But the things I learned weren't really good because I was taught on how to be scumbag. He also threatened to fire me because I didn't know a recess light was called a "high-hat" and that RMC is supposed to be called "gal". Go figure, I was taught directly from the books like I told him. I never contradicted or spoke back.

No back on topic and forgive me for this long story, I'm considering low voltage due to all the scumbag electricians I dealt with in ONLY ONE WEEK. I'm also considering the tech field cause I know how to code and I am a nerd at heart. Odd cause most of the guys I worked with were lik hicks and confederates but that's besides the point. So what do you guys think? I have valued all of your responses highly up until now and I'm very curious for your responses. Thanks in advance friends!


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## NC Plc (Mar 24, 2014)

The tech field is EXTREMELY competitive. When you say you can code well, I hope you mean extremely well in multiple languages with equal proficiency. You should research how many certifications people have to carry to stay relevant in many areas of IT.

There are a lot of good ole boys in the trade, but there are also good people in the trade. Just look at this forum, there are a lot of intelligent and from what I can tell good people that post here.

You should apply for an apprenticeship at a union. You can code on the side while working to get your electrical license. I'm in college but I am doing the electrical apprenticeship as a fallback so if I can't get a job with my degree I can still get plenty of good paying jobs as an electrician.


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## dawgs (Dec 1, 2007)

Man up and quit being a pu$$y. You were in the field one week for a piece of sh!t contractor. Doesn't mean all others are the same. Find another job and give it a try again.


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## degupita (Jun 5, 2015)

The stuff he was doing was wrong.
But why ask if all electricians do it like that?

As I have written. There is apprentice abuse at some companies. 

But what I found, is if I am at that point of quitting a job, because they are so abusive. It doesn't hurt to talk back. It is free.

If someone is not concerned about the safety of his employees and teaching you how to do code violations, then they are not electricians.

I never heard of a recessed can called high hat and RMC is rigid metal conduit. Some people use those their own terms, but they shouldn't get mad if you don't know them.
And if they do use them, I don't also.


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

NC Plc said:


> The tech field is EXTREMELY competitive. When you say you can code well, I hope you mean extremely well in multiple languages with equal proficiency. You should research how many certifications people have to carry to stay relevant in many areas of IT.
> 
> There are a lot of good ole boys in the trade, but there are also good people in the trade. Just look at this forum, there are a lot of intelligent and from what I can tell good people that post here.
> 
> You should apply for an apprenticeship at a union. You can code on the side while working to get your electrical license. I'm in college but I am doing the electrical apprenticeship as a fallback so if I can't get a job with my degree I can still get plenty of good paying jobs as an electrician.


Union is impossible because I don't meet any of the credentials and most people get in by knowing someone unfortunately. I've also read multiple sources online the tech field is the highest one that will grow in the next couple years. And that you can start somewhere at an entry level position with a couple certificates here and there and even president Obama supposedly is trying to provide even more sources other than colleges which I despise (for my own reasons) to help train people to code better. I'm at a bad position because I can't see my self going anywhere in this field. I love taking things apart, learning math and theory, I'm even trying to make a game mod as we speak as a hobby, just solving puzzles and problems. I don't know man I'm going to try one more job and then a legitimate entry level position at a low voltage company or something.
I'm curious however. Where else can I go to if my electrician thing doesn't work out?

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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

dawgs said:


> Man up and quit being a pu$$y. You were in the field one week for a piece of sh!t contractor. Doesn't mean all others are the same. Find another job and give it a try again.


No need to be aggressive. You don't even know my past and my background so need to call me that. I never said all of them are the same. I'm saying the electricians in the area that were with my ******ed boss were the same. Keep in mind only these people in my area have a need for workers because all the other well established businesses have no need to hire me and rightly so. I will try another job if not I'm done. I can't waste time. I should've re worded this thread as well to prevent animosity so that's on me. I keep read in my thread and it sounds like I'm venting. That I apologize for, the rest I don't.

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## degupita (Jun 5, 2015)

Electrical engineering.


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

degupita said:


> The stuff he was doing was wrong.
> But why ask if all electricians do it like that?
> 
> As I have written. There is apprentice abuse at some companies.
> ...


I apologize for the way I worded the thread. What I was supposed to say despite my immature venting was: Where to go if my electrician thing doesn't work out? In other words, what other fields can I go to from electrical excluding the obvious routes but maybe special niches I didn't research. Thanks boss.

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## degupita (Jun 5, 2015)

Davethaboss said:


> I apologize for the way I worded the thread. What I was supposed to say despite my immature venting was: Where to go if my electrician thing doesn't work out? In other words, what other fields can I go to from electrical excluding the obvious routes but maybe special niches I didn't research. Thanks boss.
> 
> Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


Yeah, Electrical engineering. It really is a different animal, and has many of the things you say you like to do, even on your own.


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

Hello David;

First you must finish your apprenticeship. You must sit for the exam and pass it-----prove them all wrong. You can do it because I did it--Being and apprentice sucks till the day you have the card, once you have the card you will all of a sudden get the respect of a journeyman electrician.

It is a long ride but YOU must prove that you can be a journeyman electrician.

Put your head down and do the time, learn hard, and work hard... Do not take any chit!

The goal is to become a journeymen electrician------GO get IT and never give up.

If you want the leave the electrical trade after you get the ticket, then do so, but finish this mission first-------YOU CAN DO IT! get it done


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Wow, you were taught how to do everything wrong in the first week. It took me years to figure out how to do everything wrong  .


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

Davethaboss said:


> Hello everyone! I posted a thread a while ago here discussing career options. I recently worked as a helper doing the worst tasks and being treated as such. I quit my job after a week and a half realizing that this job wasn't for me. It's a long story but the way my old boss worked was very crappy for a lack of a better term. He tried to teach me how to hide boxes and exposed wires when the inspector came. How to make a make shift ground and when the ground is missing, how to hide it. I also got yelled at alot, he threatened to for me multiple times. I got shocked twice because he didn't want to tell me which breaker the circuit was on and said "the beepy testers are for pussies". He also never spliced anything but wirecapped the wires together which would make sense for example if you want to disconnect a pump or load instantly, you can by just unscrewing the wire nut. However, he did this for all the outlets in the house. He yelled at me for being scared when I wouldn't lean against an exposed live 480 panel used to power an ATS. He grabbed two legs of 277 live and used electrical tape to tie them together. I can list a whole number of other things but it is just not worth it.
> 
> Maybe I was mis informed but do all electricians do this? I mean like the majority of them. Also, keep in mind I was the new guy and tried to get a job straight out of vocational school. I didn't know jack **** compared to the rest of the guys but I really wanted to and enjoyed learning. But the things I learned weren't really good because I was taught on how to be scumbag. He also threatened to fire me because I didn't know a recess light was called a "high-hat" and that RMC is supposed to be called "gal". Go figure, I was taught directly from the books like I told him. I never contradicted or spoke back.
> 
> ...


Maybe you should consider a career as a plumber?


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

wendon said:


> Maybe you should consider a career as a plumber?


So you think plumbers are worse than electricians huh? In my book they are the same. Lol Myself being a non-hick in a group of racist and confederate supporting hicks made for a bad day. My boss didn't even know who the first state to secede was...

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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

99cents said:


> Wow, you were taught how to do everything wrong in the first week. It took me years to figure out how to do everything wrong  .


Now my question is, while looking at this issue from an open mind view point, is it really that bad if some electricians try to quite literally make ends meet regardless of safety not followed? I'm starting to question what I was taught in school, I don't know if that's a bad thing or good thing?

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## degupita (Jun 5, 2015)

Davethaboss said:


> So you think plumbers are worse than electricians huh? In my book they are the same. Lol Myself being a non-hick in a group of racist and confederate supporting hicks made for a bad day. My boss didn't even know who the first state to secede was...
> 
> Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


The electrician where I have been working, has the dukes of hazzard song as a ring tone. :laughing:

So when I need to ask others where he is. I say, "Where is the good ole boy?"


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## degupita (Jun 5, 2015)

Davethaboss said:


> Now my question is, while looking at this issue from an open mind view point, is it really that bad if some electricians try to quite literally make ends meet regardless of safety not followed? I'm starting to question what I was taught in school, I don't know if that's a bad thing or good thing?
> 
> Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


They don't need to make ends meet by sidelining the Code or employee safety.

I hear rationales on it sometimes, but it is really they are stubborn, don't like doing electrical anymore, and their inner awareness suffers from lack of sensitivity.

You can get away with shortcuts and all, but what is the point? We have the technology now to cover those.

The last electrician I worked with. He was a good ole boy, but he was respectful, honest, and did everything by code and efficiently.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Reply to the OP - Yes , you should move away from the trade. We don't want your ***** ass around. Have a nice day.


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

macmikeman said:


> Reply to the OP - Yes , you should move away from the trade. We don't want your ***** ass around. Have a nice day.


Lol you don't even know who I am? I used to work in a mine in my country and I used to shovel horse **** as a job. I'm sorry I wasn't as granted as you were to be born into a middle class society and not only that but agree with working half-assed. You sir are exactly like my boss and you already agree with the techniques he used so with that said, go **** yourself. See? I learned a little from the guys who posted on this thread. Don't take chit from anyone and you are free to talk back to those who waste your time.

P.S. When you use a comma you put it right after the word you select to signify a pause. For example, yes, not yes ,

Did this from my phone. Thank you and go **** yourself.  
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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

degupita said:


> The electrician where I have been working, has the dukes of hazzard song as a ring tone. :laughing:
> 
> So when I need to ask others where he is. I say, "Where is the good ole boy?"


Lol, two guys I "worked" with were white supremacists. I'm not from America, I'm a Balkan. So yeah, that made for an interesting 2 weeks.


degupita said:


> The electrician where I have been working, has the dukes of hazzard song as a ring tone. :laughing:
> 
> So when I need to ask others where he is. I say, "Where is the good ole boy?"



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## NC Plc (Mar 24, 2014)

Davethaboss said:


> Union is impossible because I don't meet any of the credentials and most people get in by knowing someone unfortunately. I've also read multiple sources online the tech field is the highest one that will grow in the next couple years. And that you can start somewhere at an entry level position with a couple certificates here and there and even president Obama supposedly is trying to provide even more sources other than colleges which I despise (for my own reasons) to help train people to code better. I'm at a bad position because I can't see my self going anywhere in this field. I love taking things apart, learning math and theory, I'm even trying to make a game mod as we speak as a hobby, just solving puzzles and problems. I don't know man I'm going to try one more job and then a legitimate entry level position at a low voltage company or something.
> I'm curious however. Where else can I go to if my electrician thing doesn't work out?
> 
> Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


Electrical work can lead down a number of avenues. You can slide into a management type of position, you can work for yourself, you can do PLC programming, you can go down the troubleshooting route, you can go into sales, you can go into EE (with a degree), etc.

Or that is what I have gathered so far as an apprentice.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Davethaboss said:


> Lol you don't even know who I am? I used to work in a mine in my country and I used to shovel horse **** as a job. I'm sorry I wasn't as granted as you were to be born into a middle class society and not only that but agree with working half-assed. You sir are exactly like my boss and you already agree with the techniques he used so with that said, go **** yourself. See? I learned a little from the guys who posted on this thread. Don't take chit from anyone and you are free to talk back to those who waste your time.
> 
> P.S. When you use a comma you put it right after the word you select to signify a pause. For example, yes, not yes ,
> 
> ...


All wrong. I came from another country as well, and..... my father was vice press. of Green Giant prior to departure, while his father was president, so actually i was more of a 1% at the time of immigration. The good times only lasted for a short time, and from early early teens, I have been creating callouses on my hands continuously day to day busting ass, with little time for listening to whiners who complain about conditions of the jobsites, or placements of commas and periods.


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

NC Plc said:


> Electrical work can lead down a number of avenues. You can slide into a management type of position, you can work for yourself, you can do PLC programming, you can go down the troubleshooting route, you can go into sales, you can go into EE (with a degree), etc.
> 
> Or that is what I have gathered so far as an apprentice.


For an apprentice like myself. If finding a job with a typical mom and pop shop doesn't work, would it be wise to try and find an entry level position in maybe say low voltage? What industries have the highest entry level positions with the highest level of progression through years? I've done so much research with mixed results. I'm compiling a list of industries to check for and the rate of progression. Again mixed results. I live in Jersey, in your experience what's the best thing to do, as your an apprentice like myself? PLC programming requires a degree of I'm not mistaken.

I finished vocational school while in high school and haven't spent a single cent on college nor do I want to. However if it is an online degree or two year degree I'm all up for it.

Listen man, thanks for the advice so far.

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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

macmikeman said:


> All wrong. I came from another country as well, and..... my father was vice press. of Green Giant prior to departure, while his father was president, so actually i was more of a 1% at the time of immigration. The good times only lasted for a short time, and from early early teens, I have been creating callouses on my hands continuously day to day busting ass, with little time for listening to whiners who complain about conditions of the jobsites, or placements of commas and periods.


1%? Hahaha. You haven't experienced what busting your ass even FEELS like. I'm not here to create a sob story nor am I here to complain. Also for the record, I never complained about jobsite conditions but those who run them. If you like please re-read my thread. 

On topic. If I complain about safety and you don't, that means you aren't an electrician according to one of the posts on this thread. If you think following the code is whining, you aren't an electrician according to one of the posts on this thread. You have proven to me that you are just like the crap I had to deal with in this trade and the crap that continues to make it look bad. I just started in this trade and you just make it look even worse. I'm just curious why you are so angry? I'm assuming you hate your job or something but I'll leave that witty remark to you. [emoji3] 
P.S. Grammer is directly co-related with intelligence and the way you normally speak day to day. Anyone with a G.E.D. can grasp this idea.[emoji1] 

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## NC Plc (Mar 24, 2014)

Davethaboss said:


> For an apprentice like myself. If finding a job with a typical mom and pop shop doesn't work, would it be wise to try and find an entry level position in maybe say low voltage? What industries have the highest entry level positions with the highest level of progression through years? I've done so much research with mixed results. I'm compiling a list of industries to check for and the rate of progression. Again mixed results. I live in Jersey, in your experience what's the best thing to do, as your an apprentice like myself? PLC programming requires a degree of I'm not mistaken.
> 
> I finished vocational school while in high school and haven't spent a single cent on college nor do I want to. However if it is an online degree or two year degree I'm all up for it.
> 
> ...


There are no degrees for PLC programming. Okay, maybe there are as I haven't really researched it, but it is something that does not require a degree to do. From what I have learned, people with engineering degrees are the ones writing the PLC programs from scratch and guys with PLC experience are the ones on the floor making alterations to existing programs, usually maintenance men. I've met a few manufacturing engineers and one plant owner that have expressed an interest in a guy that can write custom PLC programs for a process they're about to roll out but I am not that guy, I'm just a newbie. The demand for guys that can do PLC programming seems to be strong from what I can tell.

If you do not want a degree then electrical work is what you want to do, as all engineering that I know of (aside from maybe railroad engineers) requires a BS or higher. A good electrical apprenticeship will pay for classes while you're getting the hands on learning at work. The only ABET engineering degree I could find for electrical engineering that is offered entirely online costs $60k-$70k, so engineering isn't really an option for me.

My employer is paying for my schooling and has paid for me to go to a PLC programming class, some online PLC learning materials, electrical theory classes, a motors and controls class, and a number of other classes. Right now they're paying me to get an A.S. transfer degree (since I couldn't make it to the EET classes), and they are paying for me to get my Microsoft access certification as of today.

tl;dr I have absolutely no social life and electrical work is my fallback if nothing else pans out.


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## degupita (Jun 5, 2015)

Davethaboss said:


> 1%? Hahaha. You haven't experienced what busting your ass even FEELS like. I'm not here to create a sob story nor am I here to complain. Also for the record, I never complained about jobsite conditions but those who run them. If you like please re-read my thread.
> 
> On topic. If I complain about safety and you don't, that means you aren't an electrician according to one of the posts on this thread. If you think following the code is whining, you aren't an electrician according to one of the posts on this thread. You have proven to me that you are just like the crap I had to deal with in this trade and the crap that continues to make it look bad. I just started in this trade and you just make it look even worse. I'm just curious why you are so angry? I'm assuming you hate your job or something but I'll leave that witty remark to you. [emoji3]
> P.S. Grammer is directly co-related with intelligence and the way you normally speak day to day. Anyone with a G.E.D. can grasp this idea.[emoji1]
> ...


I wouldn't take what people say on this site seriously, It sounds like you are not.

But there is a lot of subversive humor going on this site.

He probably does everything by code and is respectful to his employees.

Or he is a Fascist. Just seeing if they will allow that word. Lol.


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

*stay or go*



Davethaboss said:


> For an apprentice like myself.


You have an apprenticeship, real lucky. 
Yes the live voltage stuff is way wrong, but man up and finish your apprenticeship. If not move over and let someone else improve themself.


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

degupita said:


> I wouldn't take what people say on this site seriously, It sounds like you are not.
> 
> But there is a lot of subversive humor going on this site.
> 
> ...


Lol I've seen two of these people already. Instead of giving me advice they tell me I'm a ***** and need to man up. I guess that's advice I don't know lol. I do realize that not all electricians are pricks but a couple are just like on this site.

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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

just the cowboy said:


> You have an apprenticeship, real lucky.
> Yes the live voltage stuff is way wrong, but man up and finish your apprenticeship. If not move over and let someone else improve themself.


I don't have an apprenticeship for the record nor did I have one. I was working for some random guy in my town and that's it. He was a mom and pop shop and got all his work from his brother. Apprenticeship in my area is long and getting education paid for is almost unheard of unless you work for a good company which in my case I didn't. 

Also who says I'm not trying to improve? I watch Mike Holt every day and I do research every day in my field. I just have difficulty applying it and some people don't have the patience to put up with it. I don't get it. A couple of you guys keep telling me to man up. Why should I put up with crap that I don't need to for the next 5 years? My mistake because I should've entitled this alternatives to the electrical trades....

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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

NC Plc said:


> There are no degrees for PLC programming. Okay, maybe there are as I haven't really researched it, but it is something that does not require a degree to do. From what I have learned, people with engineering degrees are the ones writing the PLC programs from scratch and guys with PLC experience are the ones on the floor making alterations to existing programs, usually maintenance men. I've met a few manufacturing engineers and one plant owner that have expressed an interest in a guy that can write custom PLC programs for a process they're about to roll out but I am not that guy, I'm just a newbie. The demand for guys that can do PLC programming seems to be strong from what I can tell.
> 
> If you do not want a degree then electrical work is what you want to do, as all engineering that I know of (aside from maybe railroad engineers) requires a BS or higher. A good electrical apprenticeship will pay for classes while you're getting the hands on learning at work. The only ABET engineering degree I could find for electrical engineering that is offered entirely online costs $60k-$70k, so engineering isn't really an option for me.
> 
> ...


That's awesome you have an apprenticeship and are working for a guy you like and having school paid for. Where I am, finding a job was hard as hell for myself. I could only find jobs for some no name electricians that would leach off people they knew to get work. 

PLC programming which is stuff my bro does, is hard and you can't just jump into it. Online schooling I'm considering but like you said it sounds like it costs ALOT. Is low voltage a bad idea to consider?
I'm running out of ideas because if I can't find any, looks like I'm going to school and getting ready to be enslaved by the colleges and their debt. I still don't understand why there's anyone willing to work with me. I'll work for FREE just to understand more in depth than what I learned in school. I've always been good at doing math, doing formulas, and fixing random stuff we'd have in the shop, I don't if you had this problem but, I have difficulty applying all of it real time. It's like I just get dumb when someone explains a simple task to me. I can understand computers, networks, and programming pretty well however some things in this trade I just can't get. I don't know man it's quite frustrating because I'm still trying to get somewhere however my time is running out.

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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

Davethaboss said:


> I don't have an apprenticeship for the record nor did I have one.


My bad when you said helper I jumped to the wrong conclusion. If that is the case get away from that group and find a good shop to work for. The field is a great one to get into, but idiots like the group you talk about are not helping you when it comes to safety. Keep trying if the field interests you, not the money.
good luck


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## NC Plc (Mar 24, 2014)

Davethaboss said:


> PLC programming which is stuff my bro does, is hard and you can't just jump into it. Online schooling I'm considering but like you said it sounds like it costs ALOT. Is low voltage a bad idea to consider?
> Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


PLC just requires training, like many things. Online college is fine and not all colleges cost what the one I mentioned cost, that was for an ABET accredited engineering degree.

Low voltage isn't bad, I hear it pays more.


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## degupita (Jun 5, 2015)

A lot of the online courses are good for information, but not so much for credentials.

If you go to a four year college like IEC or IBEW, then jobs really like that.

If you get a online course at Ashford college or Foley belsaw, it is like saying, I learned from my pop or by watching YouTube videos..

But you should get oldblue to punch that SOB you worked for, in the mouth.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Much of anyone's success with any career comes from connections, other contractors, customers etc. It takes time to build for most of us. Going the apprenticeship route allows a broad range of specialties. That is if there is a structured program in place and or licenses where you are. All it takes is finding a decent contractor to work with. You never know where it's going to take you. I took a corporate jet to and from work Monday, though I spent the rest of the day in an attic. Most of us aren't blessed with a clear picture of our future but cultivate some decent relationships along the way. Hang in there.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Our trade is not a meritocracy , nor is it most days sane or civil .

When it's hot , you'll be hot

When it's cold , you'll be cold

When it's dirty, you'll be dirty

People will lie, cheat , bear false witness, and steal from you

The bureaucrats sworn to uphold us will let us down , and when we need them the most

The trade icons will mislead you

The manufacturers and suppliers will as well

Other than that , it's really great Dave

~CS~


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

It isn't always pleasant. Like chicken says, unless you drop the tools entirely and become management, you'll likely not escape this stuff entirely. It is like most careers, what you make of it. Try to find a segment that holds your interest. May not be possible, who knows. Have to start someplace.


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## degupita (Jun 5, 2015)

As far as the crap jobs given to apprentices, I don't mind that. 

There are no crap jobs, only crappy intentions for giving you them.

Electrical is easy. Partly because I like doing it so much.

People will give you the job of cleaning the part carts. or the rooms they have all the parts in.

So I would do it so well, they felt like rewarding me with running circuits.

But after awhile if the lead electricians are being vindictive and crappy, and it gets no better. I just find a better place.

So far, all my jobs have been better than the last, because I don't accept the things a lot of apprentices feel they have to.


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

NC Plc said:


> PLC just requires training, like many things. Online college is fine and not all colleges cost what the one I mentioned cost, that was for an ABET accredited engineering degree.
> 
> Low voltage isn't bad, I hear it pays more.


I'm going to try the low voltage route? You have any other thoughts on it other than it paying more? I don't care about money at this point. I just want to start somewhere where it would be suitable for me.

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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

degupita said:


> A lot of the online courses are good for information, but not so much for credentials.
> 
> If you go to a four year college like IEC or IBEW, then jobs really like that.
> 
> ...


I guess you're right. Just college is such an issue right now and I'm trying so hard to find something work. Granted, I can work as anything as I have in the past but, I would prefer working somewhere and doing something I choose for once lol. 

I won't ever go by old boss's house again. This guy is a crazy hick. He says TV is the Devil, phones are his demons, and that guns are the solution. He's a tea party member, etc... And racist. He's bat **** crazy if that even accounts for anything.

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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

nrp3 said:


> Much of anyone's success with any career comes from connections, other contractors, customers etc. It takes time to build for most of us. Going the apprenticeship route allows a broad range of specialties. That is if there is a structured program in place and or licenses where you are. All it takes is finding a decent contractor to work with. You never know where it's going to take you. I took a corporate jet to and from work Monday, though I spent the rest of the day in an attic. Most of us aren't blessed with a clear picture of our future but cultivate some decent relationships along the way. Hang in there.


It's a shame because no contractors are willing to hire in my area. A friend of mine kept record of like 70 or so electricians and only 10% answered. I have even told people I will work for FREE but still nothing. Union is impossible. I'm stuck with mom and pop shops and the guy I was working for was reluctant to even consider doing an apprenticeship. I just want a mentor man. Like I said education to me up to this point beats everything.
Shame all my connections are no good and my school didn't assist me in finding a job or anything. There are all these stupid exceptions to prevent me from working at some places. I'm going to give it another shot just time is running out....

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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

chicken steve said:


> Our trade is not a meritocracy , nor is it most days sane or civil .
> 
> When it's hot , you'll be hot
> 
> ...


Well said my friend, well said. I'm willing to cope with these realities once I can find a job for someone that is willing to teach me...

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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

nrp3 said:


> It isn't always pleasant. Like chicken says, unless you drop the tools entirely and become management, you'll likely not escape this stuff entirely. It is like most careers, what you make of it. Try to find a segment that holds your interest. May not be possible, who knows. Have to start someplace.


I'm interested in the theory and I have always been fascinated by technology even stupid little RC receivers and especially circuit boards have just intrigued me my entire life. I would try to build breadboards out of pure curiosity. I still research a ton because I like learning about it. Complete different world in the electrical trade though. Hopefully I start somewhere where I can progress too, and have the capability to post on some of the threads here without having to Google an answer lol. 
What's your opinion of low voltage btw and electronics? 
Thanks for the advice man up until now.

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## NC Plc (Mar 24, 2014)

Davethaboss said:


> I'm going to try the low voltage route? You have any other thoughts on it other than it paying more? I don't care about money at this point. I just want to start somewhere where it would be suitable for me.
> 
> Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


Not really, no. I'm just an apprentice.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I usually fly solo, but when I have the sub working for me and his apprentice is working, I'm more than happy to answer and share knowledge. He has a good one working for him at the moment. I think you would find most of us here would be willing to teach, given the chance. There are times when we are busy and getting things done is the priority, learning may take the back seat. A good journeyman should answer your questions or know where to find the answer.


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

degupita said:


> As far as the crap jobs given to apprentices, I don't mind that.
> 
> There are no crap jobs, only crappy intentions for giving you them.
> 
> ...


I agree with you man. However I'm fine with doing "crap jobs". I had to clean up and the clean the van every day. I loved it. I was able to learn what all the materials and tools were and what they were used for etc... However, my **** boss would cut me short always and yell at me for wasting his time. I also had to collect and run wire in a sewage waste lift station where every electrician hates working. I didn't mind it. Yea if you touch your face after working you'll be pooping like no tomorrow, but I got the chance to see how the sewage lift station worked and how all the wire was ran. Despite my boss taping up a 277 line with electrical tape and just putting a wire nut on it...
What bothers me is that I get called a ***** and that I wasn't fit enough to deal with the ****, even though there was no way for me to progress...

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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

NC Plc said:


> Not really, no. I'm just an apprentice.


How long have you been an apprentice for?

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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

There's always a need for that knowledge too. When you are just starting, there isn't going to be much of that unless you get lucky and maybe land where some that is going on, say industrial or maybe fire alarm. Doesn't mean you won't find it. If you get into some apprentice classes, this is the time to start getting to know people. Who do your classmates work for, how do they like it, what kinds of work are they doing, etc. Get to know the supply house counter guys if you find yourself there. When you are on jobs, talk to other trades. This is how it happens.


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

Davethaboss said:


> It's a shame because no contractors are willing to hire in my area. A friend of mine kept record of like 70 or so electricians and only 10% answered. I have even told people I will work for FREE but still nothing. Union is impossible
> 
> Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


That's what I thought in 1977 so I left NW Jersey and moved to Georgia. So far it's been working out ok for me, but I still hate my boss. Although now that I'm self-employed, maybe I should try not to.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Stick it to the man, oh wait I am the man. Nevermind. Yes self employment has its pitfalls.


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

Oh by the way, the first 25 years are the hardest, no matter what field you choose.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Then your body starts to fall apart...


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Davethaboss said:


> Hello everyone! I posted a thread a while ago here discussing career options. I recently worked as a helper doing the worst tasks and being treated as such. I quit my job after a week and a half realizing that this job wasn't for me. It's a long story but the way my old boss worked was very crappy for a lack of a better term. He tried to teach me how to hide boxes and exposed wires when the inspector came. How to make a make shift ground and when the ground is missing, how to hide it. I also got yelled at alot, he threatened to for me multiple times. I got shocked twice because he didn't want to tell me which breaker the circuit was on and said "the beepy testers are for pussies". He also never spliced anything but wirecapped the wires together which would make sense for example if you want to disconnect a pump or load instantly, you can by just unscrewing the wire nut. However, he did this for all the outlets in the house. He yelled at me for being scared when I wouldn't lean against an exposed live 480 panel used to power an ATS. He grabbed two legs of 277 live and used electrical tape to tie them together. I can list a whole number of other things but it is just not worth it.
> 
> Maybe I was mis informed but do all electricians do this? I mean like the majority of them. Also, keep in mind I was the new guy and tried to get a job straight out of vocational school. I didn't know jack **** compared to the rest of the guys but I really wanted to and enjoyed learning. But the things I learned weren't really good because I was taught on how to be scumbag. He also threatened to fire me because I didn't know a recess light was called a "high-hat" and that RMC is supposed to be called "gal". Go figure, I was taught directly from the books like I told him. I never contradicted or spoke back.
> 
> ...



This is why apprenticeships in this country need to be demolished and rebuilt from the ground up. We have a system that drives away talent and sucks up degenerates :no:

My advice to you is self educate and look for those who treat you with respect. Dont leave the trade, the world needs people like you and less then the animal you had to deal with.


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## NC Plc (Mar 24, 2014)

Davethaboss said:


> How long have you been an apprentice for?
> 
> Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


2 wonderful hellish years. It's only bad because my apprenticeship is on top of my regular job and college so I work an excessive amount of hours.


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

meadow said:


> This is why apprenticeships in this country need to be demolished and rebuilt from the ground up. We have a system that drives away talent and sucks up degenerates :no:
> 
> My advice to you is self educate and look for those who treat you with respect. Dont leave the trade, the world needs people like you and less then the animal you had to deal with.


Thanks for the advice man! I keep being told to put up with those who don't respect you but I tend to disagree with the majority and agree with you. 
I think you were the one who got me into Mike Holt too so I thank you for that! 

I also keep getting told to not self educate even though I do it regardless. 
Only issue is finding a decent job here in Jersey. It's ironic because I've always been the odd kid out. At school and it seems even in the trade. However the same underlying problem remains. Finding someone decent to work for and starting an apprenticeship. This is the hardest. The work itself doesn't bother me. I just need somewhere to be where I can progress...

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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

NC Plc said:


> 2 wonderful hellish years. It's only bad because my apprenticeship is on top of my regular job and college so I work an excessive amount of hours.


Lol it's funny to find a guy who was the new guy like myself. What exactly are you learning at college that will assist you with your work?

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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Davethaboss said:


> Thanks for the advice man!


Weclome!  



> I keep being told to put up with those who don't respect you but I tend to disagree with the majority and agree with you.
> I think you were the one who got me into Mike Holt too so I thank you for that!



Instinct never fails you. :thumbsup: Anything that goes against that is wrong. We feel bad when we are disrespected for a reason. 4 billion years of evolution didn't give us emotions for nothing.

I am glad Mike Holt is working out for you  IMO MH is an excellent resource being clear and to the point. 





> I* also keep getting told to not self educate* even though I do it regardless.




No, and I mean just no. Do not, I repeat do not listen to that. They are just saying that for reasons that have nothing to do with you or anyone else, rather themselves. They are just passing on what they were told. The majority of college students are actually required to do independent studies for certain courses which involves self education and research. 





> Only issue is finding a decent job here in Jersey. It's ironic because I've always been the odd kid out. At school and it seems even in the trade. However the same underlying problem remains. Finding someone decent to work for and starting an apprenticeship. This is the hardest. The work itself doesn't bother me. I just need somewhere to be where I can progress...



Because the system goes by a once size fits all, fit square pegs into round holes. Either comply or get chewed up. Your not the only one who sees it that way. 

Finding the right apprenticeship is the hard part, you may have to look out of state for that. Cast a broad net and try everything. In the meantime self educate. If you can educate yourself nothing can stop you, you have already mastered the most critical skill:thumbup:.


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## NC Plc (Mar 24, 2014)

Davethaboss said:


> Lol it's funny to find a guy who was the new guy like myself. What exactly are you learning at college that will assist you with your work?
> 
> Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


They paid for me to take a PLC class, some electrical theory classes, a motor and controls class, and some other things.

Right now my degree is unrelated to the electrical field, but they pay for some online PLC stuff for me.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

nrp3 said:


> Stick it to the man, oh wait I am the man. Nevermind. Yes self employment has its pitfalls.


I was just talking to myself about that today.....:laughing:~CS~


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

nrp3 said:


> Then your body starts to fall apart...


Were an equestrian crew we'd all be gracing the backs of stamps......:whistling2:~CS~


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## pete87 (Oct 22, 2012)

Set your Bar High !


Then get a bigger chair .




Pete


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Davethaboss:

I like your humble Internet nic.

The economy has been punked all through this century... with no job growth for native American men.

Blue collar incomes are going backward -- FAST.

The 'zero percent inflation rate' is a government lie. 

So, everyone is grouchy... and there's no place to run.

The price of a college degree has doubled since 2001 -- while wages have rolled over.

Hence, getting a college degree is now a route to poverty -- for the majority.

It only pencils out for the hyper elite going to Harvard, Yale, etc. -- Just ask BHO.

The President admitted that he had a hard time making ends meet on a family income of $300,000 per year. Which is why he wrote two books -- about himself, of course. They sold well enough to retire his college debt and much more.

As long as the economy is punked, you're going to run into very unhappy people.

{ My parents visited behind the Iron Curtain in the '80s. EVERY single person they met was grim, unhappy or both. Under Communism, the government was taking all of their incomes away. This made every citizen an economic zombie. }

I just don't see greener pastures beyond. The entire planet is wrenching down into no growth.

And that's the way it is.


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## Ontario (Sep 9, 2013)

Davethaboss said:


> No need to be aggressive. You don't even know my past and my background so need to call me that. I never said all of them are the same. I'm saying the electricians in the area that were with my ******ed boss were the same. Keep in mind only these people in my area have a need for workers because all the other well established businesses have no need to hire me and rightly so. I will try another job if not I'm done. I can't waste time. I should've re worded this thread as well to prevent animosity so that's on me. I keep read in my thread and it sounds like I'm venting. That I apologize for, the rest I don't.
> 
> Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


Come to Canada. We don't have confederates or hicks, but we do have some jerkoffs that shouldn't be in the field. If you can get past those and find an employer that treats you like an asset rather than a piece of turd, you're golden. 

I MUST disclose that the best experience is actually working with your horrible boss. Not for the educational value but for the conditioning: electricians come across crazy situations on the fly. One minute you could be doing a simple task like replacing lights for a condo, the next moment you'll find all the old insulation has fallen off and every wire is bare (meaning you'll have to run new lines for each circuit). These situations happen often unless you're doing new installations.

I've gone through these situations for 10 years now and I can say I expect the worst before getting to a job site. I expect the worst tempered people, the worst environmental conditions, etc and it no longer bothers me. I've hardened up.


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

telsa said:


> Davethaboss:
> 
> I like your humble Internet nic.
> 
> ...


I see what they were talking about in subversive humor. Davethaboss is a nickname I've used since I was a kid because I call everybody boss. I call everyone boss because all the immigrants from my country do that and I guess it just stuck with me and sounded like a suitable name.

Communism in my country killed off some of my relatives that I never had a chance to see. My uncle was imprisoned and then later killed. My father worked at a very young age being forced to work under a "cooperation field". I don't how we did it but we managed to come to the U.S. 
Not many people have suffered the way my family has and I as the next generation have the chance to start a family in a setting where it wasn't as bad as it was years ago. 
My friend, America isn't doing too well either but if you look at Greece and the middle east I think we're doing FINE. Like you said, I believe America is a victim of corporate sharecropping and countless other things. I like what a couple guys here said. Expect the worst but don't act like it's the worst.

I expect people that will treat me with no respect. However, I want to start somewhere at least. If I can start good and with someone that is willing to train me and then I can work for cut throat over working boss so be it.

My friend, I'm used to the people and jobs. It's my mistake because I expected more from this trade when I shouldn't have as many people on this forum have said. 
The fact I'm writing this on a smart phone blows my mind, from what I used to have which was nothing when I was growing up. All I had was a game boy advance that got stolen. Haha, the things all of us have to go through...

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## NC Plc (Mar 24, 2014)

telsa said:


> Hence, getting a college degree is now a route to poverty -- for the majority.


We agree on something. Yes, for the majority a college degree will lead to 1-2 decades of paying off student loans while you are employed making 20-30k a year. I live with two college graduates; one works at a grocery story making minimum wage while the other one makes around $10 an hour.

The only people that should get a college degree are the ones that can do so without going 50-100k in debt. The engineering degree I wanted was going to cost me around 60-70k in tuition. The degree I am currently working towards costs a fraction of that.

The sad thing is that me, an uneducated 30 year old man working at a blue collar job is making a bit more than both of my college graduate roommates. 

Actually, to add one last thing, I recently read that the only millennials that are doing really well which includes home ownership and saving up money had help from their parents. Their parents paid part or all of their college tuition and for some paid part or all of their house.


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

meadow said:


> Weclome!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm going to keep doing exactly like you said! I have one question. I recently have been looking for entry level jobs in my area and I'm looking to do low voltage. Most of them say that they will teach on job for the right candidate. Is it a bad idea for me to look in this field especially in New jersey? Any thoughts on low voltage in general?

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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

pete87 said:


> Set your Bar High !
> 
> 
> Then get a bigger chair .
> ...


Will do boss!

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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

NC Plc said:


> We agree on something. Yes, for the majority a college degree will lead to 1-2 decades of paying off student loans while you are employed making 20-30k a year. I live with two college graduates; one works at a grocery story making minimum wage while the other one makes around $10 an hour.
> 
> The only people that should get a college degree are the ones that can do so without going 50-100k in debt. The engineering degree I wanted was going to cost me around 60-70k in tuition. The degree I am currently working towards costs a fraction of that.
> 
> ...


I'm trying to avoid college all together. However, I have read that going for an associate's degree isn't a bad idea and it isn't extremely expensive. However, some people say it proves nothing. I don't know what do you think?

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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

Ontario said:


> Come to Canada. We don't have confederates or hicks, but we do have some jerkoffs that shouldn't be in the field. If you can get past those and find an employer that treats you like an asset rather than a piece of turd, you're golden.
> 
> I MUST disclose that the best experience is actually working with your horrible boss. Not for the educational value but for the conditioning: electricians come across crazy situations on the fly. One minute you could be doing a simple task like replacing lights for a condo, the next moment you'll find all the old insulation has fallen off and every wire is bare (meaning you'll have to run new lines for each circuit). These situations happen often unless you're doing new installations.
> 
> I've gone through these situations for 10 years now and I can say I expect the worst before getting to a job site. I expect the worst tempered people, the worst environmental conditions, etc and it no longer bothers me. I've hardened up.


I actually like Canada ALOT as an area. It's looks like a better and more stable version of the U.S. 
I also thank you for your advice. I understand what you are saying. I just failed miserably because I couldn't think of spontaneous solutions for things off the top of my head when my boss is saying to his buddies " My btch isn't working correctly." "He doesn't even know what a hi-hat is." "Dave, I still have the help wanted advertisement on the internet. Do not fck up a 5th time or I'm firing you."
It was difficult my friend and I just didn't want to have the mentality of hating to go to work every day.

Hopefully I find someone completely opposite and I can finally say "Yea my boss isn't one of those weird construction guys that goes to strip clubs and gogo clubs. He is normal. Like seriously, I don't get called btch anymore." 

Also as an edit I told a homeowner that had an LED my old boss put in that kept flickering because it was non-dimmable and on a dimmer switch, to buy one that was dimmable. He yelled at me and asked me why would I tell her something if she wouldn't pay us? I didn't know respect and kindness=money hahaha.

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## bobbarker (Aug 6, 2015)

Davethaboss said:


> No need to be aggressive. You don't even know my past and my background so need to call me that. I never said all of them are the same. I'm saying the electricians in the area that were with my ******ed boss were the same. Keep in mind only these people in my area have a need for workers because all the other well established businesses have no need to hire me and rightly so. I will try another job if not I'm done. I can't waste time. I should've re worded this thread as well to prevent animosity so that's on me. I keep read in my thread and it sounds like I'm venting. That I apologize for, the rest I don't.
> 
> Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


get a class d and do fire alarm, test switch gear, take classes on thermal imaging to look for hot spots, electrical engineering, change lamps on top of skyscraper steeples or on top of cell phone towers or wind turbines etc the electrical field is vast and these are some areas and quite a few niches also


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

telsa said:


> And that's the way it is.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pj0bwLBckkI

~C:jester:S~


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Davethaboss said:


> I'm going to keep doing exactly like you said! I have one question. I recently have been looking for entry level jobs in my area and I'm looking to do low voltage. Most of them say that they will teach on job for the right candidate. Is it a bad idea for me to look in this field especially in New jersey? Any thoughts on low voltage in general?
> 
> Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk



Hard to know what will transpire. But the question is this: with all negative experiences aside what do you feel like doing?


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Davetheboss...

"High Hat" originally referred to those super popular in the 19th Century -- and in the modern mind -- associated with President Lincoln.

ALWAYS expensive, they were quite the status symbol, and really made any wearer stand out in a crowd. 

As the decades have rolled by, high hats faded in popularity. The automobile just destroyed the hat business. Early period luxury cars ( _Duesenberg ) _had elevated roofs just for high hats. (!)

Today "Giving someone the high-hat treatment" = acting snobbish// superior // lording it over...

So, ironically, you were being given the 'high-hat' treatment when your co-worker lorded over you your ignorance as to electrician slang... as in our trade 'high-hat' refers to light fixtures that are also called 'can lights' ... 'hats' ... 

BTW, if you've got any foreign accent, it's a burden -- socially.

You can counter it by letting your 'flight from Communism' tale get out. 

Such suffering will neutralize a lot of work sit resentment, believe me.

You want it to 'leak out' so that it becomes common knowledge about you.


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

bobbarker said:


> get a class d and do fire alarm, test switch gear, take classes on thermal imaging to look for hot spots, electrical engineering, change lamps on top of skyscraper steeples or on top of cell phone towers or wind turbines etc the electrical field is vast and these are some areas and quite a few niches also


I'm actually considering tyco energy right now and I'm considering working for an audio engineering company as a tech. I'm also considering working for another company that installs fire alarms... What you said is very true.

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## ce2two (Oct 4, 2008)

Davethaboss said:


> Hello everyone! I posted a thread a while ago here discussing career options. I recently worked as a helper doing the worst tasks and being treated as such. I quit my job after a week and a half realizing that this job wasn't for me. It's a long story but the way my old boss worked was very crappy for a lack of a better term. He tried to teach me how to hide boxes and exposed wires when the inspector came. How to make a make shift ground and when the ground is missing, how to hide it. I also got yelled at alot, he threatened to for me multiple times. I got shocked twice because he didn't want to tell me which breaker the circuit was on and said "the beepy testers are for pussies". He also never spliced anything but wirecapped the wires together which would make sense for example if you want to disconnect a pump or load instantly, you can by just unscrewing the wire nut. However, he did this for all the outlets in the house. He yelled at me for being scared when I wouldn't lean against an exposed live 480 panel used to power an ATS. He grabbed two legs of 277 live and used electrical tape to tie them together. I can list a whole number of other things but it is just not worth it.
> 
> Maybe I was mis informed but do all electricians do this? I mean like the majority of them. Also, keep in mind I was the new guy and tried to get a job straight out of vocational school. I didn't know jack **** compared to the rest of the guys but I really wanted to and enjoyed learning. But the things I learned weren't really good because I was taught on how to be scumbag. He also threatened to fire me because I didn't know a recess light was called a "high-hat" and that RMC is supposed to be called "gal". Go figure, I was taught directly from the books like I told him. I never contradicted or spoke back.
> 
> ...


i WORKED FOR A CONTRACTOR IT WAS THE 2ND ONE EVER.My boss was a fantasy born again guy,i out roped and finished homes and condos faster than his daughters husband who was the leadman.I got a phone call on dec.24th ,saying we are running out of work ,we had 400 units to wire still:laughing: .I took it in stride,he too did alot of work that was hidden from inspectors,he was a p.o.s...I moved on to greener pastures ,contractors are a dime a dozen.


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

telsa said:


> Davetheboss...
> 
> "High Hat" originally referred to those super popular in the 19th Century -- and in the modern mind -- associated with President Lincoln.
> 
> ...


I have known what a high hat is for awhile now due to my boss's constant annoyance but thanks for the history and clever joke (Not being sarcastic. Internet text is hard to decipher sometimes.) 
My communism tale is one that will haunt me the rest of my life, so it's one of those instances where it's take it or leave it. 
I have no foreign accent and not trying to sound rude but asking someone to get rid of one is a VERY hard thing to do. Maybe you did it but others have an extremely hard time doing it and I agree that it makes it hard to communicate with others. However, "Americans" need to be less ignorant and accept these things (not saying you are one.) I've had too many racists that call themselves Americans that treat me like crap...
I relayed my communism story as a means of connecting with you in particular. I only tell it when someone asks, with you being the exception.

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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

meadow said:


> Hard to know what will transpire. But the question is this: with all negative experiences aside what do you feel like doing?


I'm not a typical high school kid so what I say next will appear bizarre. I was planning on maybe getting another job with another electrician but it's becoming quite limited now. I plan on applying for tyco, Johnson controls, and a couple jobs in the low voltage department solely entry level positions where they state in the job description that they are WILLING to teach me. I'm not even that a bad of a person to teach...
Afterwards, I plan on helping some people in my community and hopefully be prepared for another natural disaster. I also plan on going back to my country to help the people there. However I need electrical knowledge and low voltage knowledge in order to do so. This is one of the reasons I decided to go this career route in high school.
So what do you think?
Any advice would do me good. None of your advice has been bad haha. [emoji1] 

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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

telsa said:


> Davethaboss:
> 
> I just don't see greener pastures beyond. The entire planet is wrenching down into no growth.
> 
> And that's the way it is.


I'm legitimately intrigued with this statement. You don't believe the world will get better? I believe the same. Some people believe the world is getting better but America is the last civilization to rule as stated in many religions and as proven by history that every great empire falls.
I still don't understand why people believe we are getting better when we have morals failing but some will argue we are coming out with more medicine!
For more diseases...
Less war!
But more mass killings, bombings, and homicides...
Easier to make money!
But more debt, illogical fees, and more taxes for the lower classes.

I have no idea how we came to this conversation but I love the outright spontaneous nature of it!


Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Davethaboss said:


> I
> 
> 
> > 'm not a typical high school kid so what I say next will appear bizarre. I was planning on maybe getting another job with another electrician but it's becoming quite limited now.
> ...


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

the LV industry has been traditionally demographic , due to their monopolistic nature Dave. 

for instance , when fiber debuted in my state, their existed few qualified splicers, the then telecommunication moguls looked to _beg, borrow or steal _any contender south of us....

that they teach it in HS shop class now tugs the capitalist strings of my old black heart

~CS~


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

meadow said:


> My question: what interests you more, low voltage electronics or building power systems?


T*Ts :jester:

not what i'd recommend for a career choice though.... :no:

~CS~


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Davethaboss said:


> I'm legitimately intrigued with this statement. You don't believe the world will get better? I believe the same. Some people believe the world is getting better but America is the last civilization to rule as stated in many religions and as proven by history that every great empire falls.
> I still don't understand why people believe we are getting better when we have morals failing but some will argue we are coming out with more medicine!
> For more diseases...
> Less war!
> ...


A number of demographic factors are hitting America:

1) The 1965 (Ted) Kennedy immigration 'reform' entirely eliminated the historical preference America had for European immigrants.

2) The average global IQ is ~ 85 -- not 100. 

Mexican, Latino, Black IQs in America are not far off the global average ~ 85. 

3) The average White IQ is 100. Indeed, the entire IQ scale -- when initiated a century ago took White IQs as its base line.

The original purpose behind testing for IQ was to help the mentally disadvantaged. It didn't hold that focus long.

http://michaelwferguson.blogspot.com/p/the-inappropriately-excluded-by-michael.html

The above link is essential reading... and allows one to understand how society is structured.

http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com/imm.htm

The above link is essential to understanding how wide open legal immigration is changing the nation.

http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com/sft.htm

The above link largely explains WHY America became the economic powerhouse of the world.

The motive force for that achievement is being reversed at full speed by BHO. It's his primary drive.

Economic advance is very much like a fire: it can be put out. Communism // So******m // Monarchy // Dictatorship all function as economic fire extinguishers.

Right now, Venezuela is the nexus of total, systemic, failure -- being a So******t Dictatorship.

{ For some STRANGE reason, modern Americans don't comprehend that So******m goes with Monarchy and Dictatorship like two peas in a pod. Monarchs and Dictators merely figure that THEY are the ones that should be administering society's wealth -- for the betterment of that society.

So******m is actually a RETURN to the ancient style of governance, the one famous for no growth and pervasive repression, if not rigid castes. } 

It's not for nothing that BHO functions -- royally. He doesn't cotton to anyone telling him what the public deserves. He's going to give it to them long and hard, as he sees fit. :blink:


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

chicken steve said:


> the LV industry has been traditionally demographic , due to their monopolistic nature Dave.
> 
> for instance , when fiber debuted in my state, their existed few qualified splicers, the then telecommunication moguls looked to _beg, borrow or steal _any contender south of us....
> 
> ...


I got really good at making patch cables and I used to mess with fiber before high school. I'm a tinkerer. One thing I've tried to devise is to create a radio signal and wave out of scratch to power my TV and other stuff in my house. I have always been fascinated with telecomms. and electronics. However so think this is a field where I can learn a lot.

Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

meadow said:


> Davethaboss said:
> 
> 
> > INot bizarre at all. Keep trying even if you have to do it over and over. Even most utility line relocsers make 4 attempts. [emoji106]:laughing:
> ...


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Davethaboss said:


> meadow said:
> 
> 
> > Thank you very much for the advice as usual! As I told another guy here I have always enjoyed tinkering with electronics and making Ethernet cables for my ps4 for fun and then hacking and modding it. I have always been intrigued by networking and telecommunications as well. So yes I'm more interested in Low voltage, technology, and networking/electronics more so than power systems in buildings. The worst part... I regret not going for 4 full years at my votech for networking and telecommunications. I could've learned so much but I went to my tech school for 2 years to learn electrical trades. Not saying what I learned was bad because I had a blast learning all these new things and I would make contraptions with the limited materials we had at my school. I made a train signal out of the lights used for them, a door bell, limit switch, and a contactor. At the time I thought it was so cool. I also learned a lot more in residential. However the question I ask myself is did I make a mistake not choosing the right course? I guess time will decide.
> ...


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## AMP_Electric (Aug 8, 2015)

Davethaboss said:


> Union is impossible because I don't meet any of the credentials and most people get in by knowing someone unfortunately. I've also read multiple sources online the tech field is the highest one that will grow in the next couple years. And that you can start somewhere at an entry level position with a couple certificates here and there and even president Obama supposedly is trying to provide even more sources other than colleges which I despise (for my own reasons) to help train people to code better. I'm at a bad position because I can't see my self going anywhere in this field. I love taking things apart, learning math and theory, I'm even trying to make a game mod as we speak as a hobby, just solving puzzles and problems. I don't know man I'm going to try one more job and then a legitimate entry level position at a low voltage company or something.
> I'm curious however. Where else can I go to if my electrician thing doesn't work out?
> 
> Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


Not a bad idea to have a fall-back, but let me tell you something about the tech field... It's full of H1-Bs that drive down salaries and they aren't easy to deal with. I have worked in the tech field. I was working as a Jman at a college and took advantage of the tuition assistance they offered. I got a AAS/GS and a AAS/CS where I "majored" in Unix. I had a 3.8 and 3.9 GPA respectively. I got three certs afterwards, Novell, LPIC and CompTIA Linux ones. I also know how to code in C, PERL, and limited Python and Ruby (can find issues if given enough time but not really code from scratch with them). I had ONE job that lasted about a year in tech, you can look at start pay of about 35-40k (I got on the high side of that because I know how to interview pretty good)... That said, it takes about 10+ years to go past 100k. My brother in law took 20 years to break that threshold (mainly because of where he lives but also due to the fact he's not a yes man). You will deal with the H1Bs, if you work on a combined project (which undoubtedly you will) not making comments on changes in code (as to who did it) and THEN BLAME YOU or any other American working there. And since they probably are making considerably less than you (I know they pack them in condos near TI in Richardson, TX where I worked so their living costs are down and they can send more back to India or whatever ME dirt-hole and split rent). Left after getting tired of the PC BS and back-biting, it's worse than anything I've experienced in the trades.... Worked another 3 months to get my hours, took ME test got 89% first try, opened my own EC with my wife and will never look back... 

IF you are looking at it due to the federal government saying there will be a shortage, let me give you a little advice... any time the government says there's going to be a shortage in a field, RUN AS FAST AS YOU CAN FROM IT!!!! They are just looking for justification to saturate the field with either H1Bs or illegals. Not trying to turn this into a political rant, just telling the truth. There was my experience above, after saying that STEM jobs were going to be in high demand right before I started taking classes, my dad's stories of them claiming the same thing in the 80s for engineering (right before his field, electrical engineering which he was a senior making 95k a year in 1983 to his last job before retiring making 67k in 1999, field FLOODED with H1Bs), his wife getting her teaching certificate (she has a masters in Physics and a bachelors in Astronomy) just to find the claim of a "shortage" inflated and the pay abhorrently lower than what was projected. So in short, if the federal says shortage, you RUN!!!


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

telsa said:


> A number of demographic factors are hitting America:
> 
> 1) The 1965 (Ted) Kennedy immigration 'reform' entirely eliminated the historical preference America had for European immigrants.
> 
> ...


BHO is Barack Hussein Obama if I'm not mistaken? I apologize I do not do as much extensive reading as you have so I may not understand these acronyms. I also thought you meant butane hash oil, haha, I had a nice argument with a guy about that. 
Anyways, I first must tell you that I am neutral and have no faith in politics. From what you said I can gather you dislike Obama and maybe prefer another party. However, politics do not solve ANYTHING. This has been proven time and time again. As all great empires rise they fall the same way. (Just like the banks we have here in America that stimulate the economy setting it up more for a drastic collapse then say if it was a free market haha.)
This is where I get religious. It's stated in almost all books that America is the last empire to stand. America is represented by the Babylonian statue and idol used in Daniels prophecy. It is represented by the clay toes and copper feet. Why are they mixed? It's not only America but Britain as well. The Anglo-American world empire is the last to rule.

Now regarding IQ. When I was young I normally had a high IQ just because (even now) I could think really fast. I also thought I had a photographic memory however, I was proven wrong very early. I just had a good memory that was it and my spatial conception and understanding was good. However I would suffer in other departments such as stuttering and having difficulty in explaining certain things, which would lead me to rambling.
Regardless, African Americans and all other minorities suffer from low IQ's because they never were given the chance to achieve a high one. Now this is a problem we have right now with many Americans not actually being smart. I had an argument with someone on YouTube because I was trying to explain to him that the click bait marketing done by many people tricks you into watching or buying something but, he would just ridicule me. Regardless, of the fact that all these corporations prey on the social majority and social crowd, subliminally as proven by the CIA.
Now before I'm called a conspiracy nut and such that us take a step back.
History isn't told truthfully yet many Americans accept it. Why do I say this? I was never taught in school about the Syphilis experiments done on black individuals as clinic trials. I was never taught about how leading Nazi generals escaped Germany somehow, after the war ended. I was never taught about in depth the genocides committed by the Americans on the native Americans. I was never taught how the U.S. obtained information and tests done on those that were in the concentration camps and that they hired some of those that were involved. I was never taught that Saddam Hussein never had WMD's.
History wasn't taught right and now we have countless Americans brainwashed in a way. Some Americans don't even understand that the holidays they celebrate are actually pagan, but try explaining that to an open minded individual and you will see a different result. People are becoming brainwashed in a way. Life isn't about checking instagram every day, fessing over make-up, becoming anorexic because the models are, getting the biggest house, getting the nicest car, etc... These are only things people measure the success of their life by. If we had a world where people were focused on helping one another without a human government and developing themselves that's what real life would be. 
However, I'm here fussing about where I should direct my career in the electrical field. I'm stuck in limbo essentially. I don't have much leeway to do anything that I want to do, because I'm confined to the way it is.
And that's just the way it is.
Man, I have to work on organising my thoughts. I'm re thinking what I wrote down and I'm thinking "this dude will have no idea what I'm trying to get across. Probably the only point being I'm fed up with everything."

Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

meadow said:


> Davethaboss said:
> 
> 
> > Look at what you gives you passion. Look at what you enjoy doing, the rest will just fall into place. [emoji106]
> ...


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

AMP_Electric said:


> Not a bad idea to have a fall-back, but let me tell you something about the tech field... It's full of H1-Bs that drive down salaries and they aren't easy to deal with. I have worked in the tech field. I was working as a Jman at a college and took advantage of the tuition assistance they offered. I got a AAS/GS and a AAS/CS where I "majored" in Unix. I had a 3.8 and 3.9 GPA respectively. I got three certs afterwards, Novell, LPIC and CompTIA Linux ones. I also know how to code in C, PERL, and limited Python and Ruby (can find issues if given enough time but not really code from scratch with them). I had ONE job that lasted about a year in tech, you can look at start pay of about 35-40k (I got on the high side of that because I know how to interview pretty good)... That said, it takes about 10+ years to go past 100k. My brother in law took 20 years to break that threshold (mainly because of where he lives but also due to the fact he's not a yes man). You will deal with the H1Bs, if you work on a combined project (which undoubtedly you will) not making comments on changes in code (as to who did it) and THEN BLAME YOU or any other American working there. And since they probably are making considerably less than you (I know they pack them in condos near TI in Richardson, TX where I worked so their living costs are down and they can send more back to India or whatever ME dirt-hole and split rent). Left after getting tired of the PC BS and back-biting, it's worse than anything I've experienced in the trades.... Worked another 3 months to get my hours, took ME test got 89% first try, opened my own EC with my wife and will never look back...
> 
> IF you are looking at it due to the federal government saying there will be a shortage, let me give you a little advice... any time the government says there's going to be a shortage in a field, RUN AS FAST AS YOU CAN FROM IT!!!! They are just looking for justification to saturate the field with either H1Bs or illegals. Not trying to turn this into a political rant, just telling the truth. There was my experience above, after saying that STEM jobs were going to be in high demand right before I started taking classes, my dad's stories of them claiming the same thing in the 80s for engineering (right before his field, electrical engineering which he was a senior making 95k a year in 1983 to his last job before retiring making 67k in 1999, field FLOODED with H1Bs), his wife getting her teaching certificate (she has a masters in Physics and a bachelors in Astronomy) just to find the claim of a "shortage" inflated and the pay abhorrently lower than what was projected. So in short, if the federal says shortage, you RUN!!!


I appreciate everything you wrote and my change in stance regarding the technology field. What do you think about starting in low voltage or fiber applications? Also is the technology field the same throughout the country? I don't think so but, hell I haven't seen anything yet...

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## 120/208 (Nov 18, 2012)

Davethaboss said:


> Hello everyone! I posted a thread a while ago here discussing career options. I recently worked as a helper doing the worst tasks and being treated as such. I quit my job after a week and a half realizing that this job wasn't for me. It's a long story but the way my old boss worked was very crappy for a lack of a better term. He tried to teach me how to hide boxes and exposed wires when the inspector came. How to make a make shift ground and when the ground is missing, how to hide it. I also got yelled at alot, he threatened to for me multiple times. I got shocked twice because he didn't want to tell me which breaker the circuit was on and said "the beepy testers are for pussies". He also never spliced anything but wirecapped the wires together which would make sense for example if you want to disconnect a pump or load instantly, you can by just unscrewing the wire nut. However, he did this for all the outlets in the house. He yelled at me for being scared when I wouldn't lean against an exposed live 480 panel used to power an ATS. He grabbed two legs of 277 live and used electrical tape to tie them together. I can list a whole number of other things but it is just not worth it.
> 
> Maybe I was mis informed but do all electricians do this? I mean like the majority of them. Also, keep in mind I was the new guy and tried to get a job straight out of vocational school. I didn't know jack **** compared to the rest of the guys but I really wanted to and enjoyed learning. But the things I learned weren't really good because I was taught on how to be scumbag. He also threatened to fire me because I didn't know a recess light was called a "high-hat" and that RMC is supposed to be called "gal". Go figure, I was taught directly from the books like I told him. I never contradicted or spoke back.
> 
> ...


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

120/208 said:


> You might be better at being a plumber.


The subversive humor is real! Was it really that long?

Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


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## AMP_Electric (Aug 8, 2015)

Davethaboss said:


> I appreciate everything you wrote and my change in stance regarding the technology field. What do you think about starting in low voltage or fiber applications? Also is the technology field the same throughout the country? I don't think so but, hell I haven't seen anything yet...
> 
> Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


If that's what makes you happy, life's too short to be miserable. I don't know about technology field throughout the nation, I still get calls from Dice to work in Massachusetts, New Jersey, New York, etc... I don't mind travelling but I won't live anywhere outside Dixie other than maybe Dakotas, Montana, Idaho. Don't like the crowds or politics of elsewhere.... Feels like living in a beehive....


That said, I'll tell you my game plan. I am still Iearning about PLCs (installation as well as programming and machine code (Gray and BCD code) I was lucky in starting in MFD maintenance, transitioned into light commercial (school) then worked for an industrial electrician to finish hours. I'll tell you, niche electricians find the most money for time spent, and industrial is more interesting than res. and ltcom to me. The last electrician, don't know if his nephew who also worked for him was sh!tt!ng me or not, but supposedly grossed 1.8M last year by doing ONLY industrial work for power plants and manufacturing in NE TX. I do mainly residential and light commercial because that's about all that's where I live right now, but focusing on industrial is my end game. 

Another brother in law has a data cabling company in Houston, and he says illegals are moving into it driving down wages BAD. But it's ultimately what makes you happy. Good luck


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

........


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

> I have so many options. I'm getting criticized by my narcissist brother for asking you guys for advice, but what is the best option? I like anything that does with electrical really. I have so much information but, so little time.


Actually you've a whole life ahead Dave

And you've _ants in yer pants_ about it

In a room of old dogs , who made their choices _decades _ago

Slow down, and take your time.......

~CS~


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## 120/208 (Nov 18, 2012)

Davethaboss said:


> The subversive humor is real! Was it really that long?
> 
> Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


You need to find a legitimate electrical contractor to work with or join the union and get a good education.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Davethaboss said:


> BHO is Barack Hussein Obama if I'm not mistaken? I apologize I do not do as much extensive reading as you have so I may not understand these acronyms. I also thought you meant butane hash oil, haha, I had a nice argument with a guy about that.


Im not good with them either. :laughing:




> Anyways, I first must tell you that I am neutral and have no faith in politics. From what you said I can gather you dislike Obama and maybe prefer another party. However, politics do not solve ANYTHING. This has been proven time and time again. As all great empires rise they fall the same way. (Just like the banks we have here in America that stimulate the economy setting it up more for a drastic collapse then say if it was a free market haha.)


Politics is just a game, its already decided ahead of time. I don't pay attention to it either. 





> This is where I get religious. It's stated in almost all books that America is the last empire to stand. America is represented by the Babylonian statue and idol used in Daniels prophecy. It is represented by the clay toes and copper feet. Why are they mixed? It's not only America but Britain as well. The Anglo-American world empire is the last to rule.


Who knows. :laughing: All religion has the flaw of asking people to look at a higher power rather then within themselves. Subversion more then anything if you ask me. 







> Now regarding IQ. When I was young I normally had a high IQ just because (even now) I could think really fast. I also thought I had a photographic memory however, I was proven wrong very early. I just had a good memory that was it and my spatial conception and understanding was good. However I would suffer in other departments such as stuttering and having difficulty in explaining certain things, which would lead me to rambling.


People with high IQs often appear to be that way, education is built around the lowest common denominator rather then the extremes it normally encounters. Ironically those extreme are the ones that need the most support that education has to offer. 

Dont sweat you past, it is what it is. 







> Regardless, African Americans and all other minorities suffer from low IQ's because they never were given the chance to achieve a high one. Now this is a problem we have right now with many Americans not actually being smart. I had an argument with someone on YouTube because I was trying to explain to him that the click bait marketing done by many people tricks you into watching or buying something but, he would just ridicule me.


Everything you say here it true, everything. Environment can make or break both IQ and talent. The environment can either excel it or stifle it. This is why I am so critical of education. You should be encouraged, not discouraged for wanting to beat old tradition. 

And oh, you are correct. The majority of the internet is bait and click. He either trolling or seeing it the way advertisers want him to. 




> Regardless, of the fact that all these corporations prey on the social majority and social crowd, subliminally as proven by the CIA.
> Now before I'm called a conspiracy nut and such that us take a step back.
> History isn't told truthfully yet many Americans accept it. Why do I say this? I was never taught in school about the Syphilis experiments done on black individuals as clinic trials. I was never taught about how leading Nazi generals escaped Germany somehow, after the war ended. I was never taught about in depth the genocides committed by the Americans on the native Americans. I was never taught how the U.S. obtained information and tests done on those that were in the concentration camps and that they hired some of those that were involved. I was never taught that Saddam Hussein never had WMD's.


History is written by the winners. Inconvenient truths are swept under the rug. When ever a nation conquers another, it surrenders or collapses with the winners taking what resources they need and copying everything that worked for them. 

There is a lot schools don't teach you. All the more reason to self educate. 



> History wasn't taught right and now we have countless Americans brainwashed in a way. Some Americans don't even understand that the holidays they celebrate are actually pagan, but try explaining that to an open minded individual and you will see a different result. People are becoming brainwashed in a way.


I agree.

Our NEC is becoming brainwashed thanks to manufacturer representatives lobbying the code making process for favorable outcomes. Apprentices are taught not to question for this exact reason. 





> Life isn't about checking instagram every day, fessing over make-up, becoming anorexic because the models are, getting the biggest house, getting the nicest car, etc... These are only things people measure the success of their life by. If we had a world where people were focused on helping one another without a human government and developing themselves that's what real life would be.


I agree, which is why goals should be around a job you enjoy and descent home. Once you find something you love the rest becomes trivial. 




> However, I'm here fussing about where I should direct my career in the electrical field. I'm stuck in limbo essentially. I don't have much leeway to do anything that I want to do, because I'm confined to the way it is.
> And that's just the way it is.
> Man, I have to work on organising my thoughts. I'm re thinking what I wrote down and I'm thinking "this dude will have no idea what I'm trying to get across. Probably the only point being I'm fed up with everything."
> 
> Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


Dont sweat it for now, your still young. Stress kills, take it easy for now.


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

meadow said:


> Im not good with them either. :laughing:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm amazed time after time on how open minded you are my friend. You are very different from the people on this forum. The reason I'm beginning to stress is much more complicated than you think. My family believes I will go nowhere with my life and have labelled me as a failure. They are threatening me that if I do not find a decent job in September they will stop supporting me because I turned 18. 
I'm not even that bad of a kid.
I never attended parties, drank, or smoked or had an affair with some girl. I spent my time researching and reading books upon books in the electrical trade while I was told they wouldn't help me.
My point is, the reason I made this thread was to see different perspectives and opinion of people and then make a logical decision based off it. Also to prove to everyone I'm not a failure and I've amounted to something. 
No one here understands nor do I need anyone's pity. Too much negativity in my house. If I had the chance to get a decent job and make some money first mission is leaving the house...
I will never stop self educating regardless of what people tell me. I only pray that it pays off soon or I'm seriously in trouble. Ironically a bunch of college kids are taking it easy on vacation and doing things I don't do as I said in the latter...

Again please forgive me for the sob story, I have to stop doing that.

Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

120/208 said:


> You need to find a legitimate electrical contractor to work with or join the union and get a good education.


Why does a vocational school education not suffice? I know plenty of people that have gotten by and make more money than me in my votech class when I spent more time working and studying then they did.
Union in Jersey is all about knowing people, that's it. People like me never get in.
I'm curious. What are signs of a good contractor?
I mean like obvious ones so I don't have to waste my time sending resumes and emails.
Like maybe their logo, speak, etc...

Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Davethaboss said:


> I'm amazed time after time on how open minded you are my friend. You are very different from the people on this forum.


Thanks!  






> The reason I'm beginning to stress is much more complicated than you think. My family believes I will go nowhere with my life and have labelled me as a failure. They are threatening me that if I do not find a decent job in September they will stop supporting me because I turned 18.



Calling you a failure before you have even had a chance to succeed is asking for disaster. Im sorry that happening. For now forget what they say. 



> I'm not even that bad of a kid.
> I never attended parties, drank, or smoked or had an affair with some girl. I spent my time researching and reading books upon books in the electrical trade while I was told they wouldn't help me.


Who told you they wouldnt help? Of course they will help, that is one way of being self taught. Heck if we could get professionals to crack open books more often this trade will have a revolution. 





> My point is, the reason I made this thread was to see different perspectives and opinion of people and then make a logical decision based off it.


So far so good 




> Also to prove to everyone I'm not a failure and I've amounted to something.


For starters your not a failure, the only person who is a failure is one who refuses to learn. For now dont even think about amounting to something, turn that off and seek to gain knowledge. 




> No one here understands nor do I need anyone's pity. Too much negativity in my house. If I had the chance to get a decent job and make some money first mission is leaving the house...


Once you get into the trade will have job security. 





> I will never stop self educating regardless of what people tell me. I only pray that it pays off soon or I'm seriously in trouble. Ironically a bunch of college kids are taking it easy on vacation and doing things I don't do as I said in the latter...


Being honest it may take time until you see it, you are still young but one day I can grantee it will turn out to be the best decision ever. 




> Again please forgive me for the sob story, I have to stop doing that.
> 
> Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


Its ok, its better to be honest then have us give you misleading advice assuming something else.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Davethaboss said:


> Now regarding IQ. When I was young I normally had a high IQ just because (even now) I could think really fast. I also thought I had a photographic memory however, I was proven wrong very early. I just had a good memory that was it and my spatial conception and understanding was good. However I would suffer in other departments such as stuttering and having difficulty in explaining certain things, which would lead me to rambling.
> 
> Regardless, African Americans and all other minorities suffer from low IQ's because they never were given the chance to achieve a high one.
> 
> ...


==> False. Saddam used chemical weapons against Iran, These were state-of-the-art binary rounds. Their shelf life is measured in decades. ( The primary reason for binary rounds in the first place -- they really last. )

When these showed up during the American occupation, the Pentagon suppressed the news releases -- for military security reasons.

After the campaign is over, the NY Times reported in detail how long that paper had known about LOTS of captured nerve gas... but had kept the secret to save lives. All of the war era accounts of never finding nerve agents were, in fact, false, and the NY Times knew such was so when they were published.

The Iraqi experts ultimately revealed that Saddam had a massive atomic program. It did exist. He erased it in the weeks leading up to the invasion. Entire buildings were torn down. ( This same stunt has been happening with Iran, ) Saddam forced the technicians to tuck the blue prints away -- in their own homes -- kept there, safe, on pain of death.

Once the coast was clear, Saddam was set to go right back into the atomic weapons race. He figured he simply had to have atomics to scare off Iran.

As you might imagine, binary nerve agents -- if shipped to New York City -- would have horrific impact -- even if only a handful were detonated. And Saddam's ammo dumps had HUNDREDS of such shells. Grabbing them, counting them, everything about them was kept deeply classified. (ie secret)


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## 120/208 (Nov 18, 2012)

Davethaboss said:


> Why does a vocational school education not suffice? I know plenty of people that have gotten by and make more money than me in my votech class when I spent more time working and studying then they did.
> Union in Jersey is all about knowing people, that's it. People like me never get in.
> I'm curious. What are signs of a good contractor?
> I mean like obvious ones so I don't have to waste my time sending resumes and emails.
> ...


The union apprenticeship was just a suggestion. Not a do all end all option. As far as finding a good contractor, check their license number see how long they've been in business, check online reviews.


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## AMP_Electric (Aug 8, 2015)

Davethaboss said:


> Why does a vocational school education not suffice? I know plenty of people that have gotten by and make more money than me in my votech class when I spent more time working and studying then they did.
> Union in Jersey is all about knowing people, that's it. People like me never get in.
> I'm curious. What are signs of a good contractor?
> I mean like obvious ones so I don't have to waste my time sending resumes and emails.
> ...



Well, part of your problem, from what I see, is you think you have to go to a union to get employment. Go to a right to work state if it's that hard to find employment. 

The real sign of a good contractor is how they talk to you. There's really no way to tell for sure before meeting in person. If in the interview process they start talking down to you, seem disinterested in what you're saying, seem full of themselves, etc... then they'll probably be WORSE working for them. I use to tell them thanks for your time but I don't think I'll be a good fit with your company and get up and leave. There are also temporary companies, such as Aerotech and Outsource down here, that specialize in the technical trades, get your feet wet with a contractor and if you fit see about permanent placement.


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## dawgs (Dec 1, 2007)

You keep saying that you can't get in the union because you don't know anyone. My question is have you actually applied?

How many contractors or other electrical jobs have you applied for since you have been unemployed?


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

dawgs said:


> You keep saying that you can't get in the union because you don't know anyone. My question is have you actually applied?
> 
> How many contractors or other electrical jobs have you applied for since you have been unemployed?


I have applied and my friends have applied and none of us got in.
Currently there aren't many employers in my area that I would like to work for because they knew my previous boss and were just like him.

I'm just going to do low voltage or find an entry level position fixing electronics or creating networks like my brother. The electrical technical field is a place I don't want to really be in and I don't want to be around it at all to be honest. Also, All the advanced maths and sciences I learned in school will do me no good in this field unless I go to college for electrical engineering which I won't.

In all this thread has succeeded and failed in different respects but I got a lot of different perspectives that I was looking for. However the rest of the people on this forum that keep mentioning plumber this, plumber that are the exact people I want to avoid.
I also remembered your comment from a while ago calling me a pssy. Another PERFECT reason why I hate people like you in this trade.
Go fck yourself.  

We need more "meadows and telsas and all the others that actually provided useful information (I wish I could personally thank each one of you)" in this field and less "dawgs".

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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

telsa said:


> ==> False. Saddam used chemical weapons against Iran, These were state-of-the-art binary rounds. Their shelf life is measured in decades. ( The primary reason for binary rounds in the first place -- they really last. )
> 
> When these showed up during the American occupation, the Pentagon suppressed the news releases -- for military security reasons.
> 
> ...


He still never actually owned WMD's. (i guess it depends on your definition of the term) Nerve agents other wise known as phosphorous gas and chlorine gas (I think chlorine gas could be classified as that?) I believe can't be smuggled over an American border that easily and that they don't do detrimental impact to a HUGE area. I think Syria used chemical warfare against the insurgents in his country but someone I knew told me that during a windy day they would be rendered useless because of the density of its composition.
Regardless Saddam was trying to build nukes. In my honest opinion, where the hell in the Middle East will you be able to mine rare-earth metals without being seen, a safe environment to test them, and a safe place to blow them up and drop them? 
We had NO reason to go into the middle east other than to save the lives of those under the heavy regimes. However it was later realized and portrayed in the show Homeland that these people actually supported their leaders, so yeah go figure. I recall even in Cuba some people viewed Castro as a God and savior. Did they say it with free will or not? I don't know.
I still think that the Middle East has no capability to do any damage to us. They could send one nuke but we'd send like 50. The people in the Middle East need to understand this fact.
Again, do nerve agents count as WMD's I don't know. I have always thought they have been deemed as nuclear weapons with nuclear capabilities. 
However I haven't commented on the shells because I don't know how they work. Are they like uranium dipped tank rounds that a M1 Abrams tank uses?

My next question is: What is your opinion of the declassified documents of the CIA, about their studies on subliminal messaging? I've always found this intriguing and I've always thought this was true for example with common advertising.

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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

telsa said:


> ==> False. Saddam used chemical weapons against Iran, These were state-of-the-art binary rounds. Their shelf life is measured in decades. ( The primary reason for binary rounds in the first place -- they really last. )
> 
> When these showed up during the American occupation, the Pentagon suppressed the news releases -- for military security reasons.
> 
> ...


I just finished reading your comment. I didn't read it correctly to begin with but I 're read what you quoted and then I was able to see your REAL comment. 
I find it quite hopeless to believe that your whole life has been predestined from the start. If this was the case life would have no meaning. My opinion however is I believe you DO NOT need a high IQ to do menial tasks. However, our brains do not operate at 100%. Some people may be able to control larger percentages than others. That's the only way I can understand it in a physical sense. 
My next question is why would America allow the KGB lies to seep into American media?
Even other non-communist countries stated that the Americans did commit these acts as I stated previously.
When you state syphilis tests weren't done on black males I believe you're incorrect.
Search up the Tuskegee Syphilis Experiment
If that's a lie or some sort of cover up or something I don't know what is anymore.
I read reports of some German officers that escaped to Uruguay and even Egypt and were NEVER caught. They actually died there never being captured. Just search it up. Even Josef Mengele supposedly died in Brazil but there are so many different accounts my head hurts thinking about it. If those are lies too, again I don't know what is.
However, if we continuously portray the Russians as these deceitful lot of individuals there will be a time where we will have to set differences aside which is right now. Right now meaning, my version of Cold War V.2. (Russia and US propaganda not telling the war for it is correctly) it doesn't matter who is right or not but they both are publishing propaganda and Russia is silencing more TV stations than the U.S. so I guess you can use that as a means of measuring who silences their people more, the Russians or Americans.

I will say one thing. If we as a human race can not make any true advancement in terms of our morals and ethics we will go backwards REGARDLESS of how many inventions we make and how many peace treaties are made, etc... If you disagree I'm afraid I can not relate with you.

There comes a point however, when we have all these people discussing the same topics as we have but yet sit there and do nothing. 
I plan on one day going to my country and hopefully show them something I learned here.
"You can give a man a fish but they will eat for one day. Teach a man how to fish, they will thrive for one year."

Too many people argue and talk about issues and others ignore them altogether. It's time people left these differences behind and actually got up and did something. Sometimes we don't have the proper means necessary to do so but we have to try.
Call me fake or call me an extreme opportunist, I don't believe our lives are intended for eternal backwards progression. Remain open minded and remain awake. Something my generation is not doing...




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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

AMP_Electric said:


> Well, part of your problem, from what I see, is you think you have to go to a union to get employment. Go to a right to work state if it's that hard to find employment.
> 
> The real sign of a good contractor is how they talk to you. There's really no way to tell for sure before meeting in person. If in the interview process they start talking down to you, seem disinterested in what you're saying, seem full of themselves, etc... then they'll probably be WORSE working for them. I use to tell them thanks for your time but I don't think I'll be a good fit with your company and get up and leave. There are also temporary companies, such as Aerotech and Outsource down here, that specialize in the technical trades, get your feet wet with a contractor and if you fit see about permanent placement.


Interesting comment. I've been told to man up and stop being a pssy with certain employers. I can't go out of state considering the responsibilities I have here in Jersey. I can apply for the union but I will be in a never ending waiting list. 
I am going to apply for an entry level low voltage position and we will see what happens...

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## CharlieCarcinogen (Aug 8, 2015)

I am in northern NJ and am looking for a helper. Maybe 25-30 hours per week. 

What experience do you have?
Will you work for cash? How much?


ETA: I just read the first post and I am amazed:



> It's a long story but the way my old boss worked was very crappy for a lack of a better term. He tried to teach me how to hide boxes and exposed wires when the inspector came. How to make a make shift ground and when the ground is missing, how to hide it.


 So you would have a problem if I told you to hide something??? :blink:



> He also never spliced anything but wirecapped the wires together which would make sense for example if you want to disconnect a pump or load instantly, you can by just unscrewing the wire nut. However, he did this for all the outlets in the house.


 Let me get this straight, a helper with 1 week's experience is complaining because the master electrician he works for doesn't pre-twist? Half of this forum doesn't pre-twist. Who are you to judge?

You are, very clearly, the last person I would want working for me. No wonder you can't get a job. There are plenty of nail salons hiring around here, good luck.


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## NC Plc (Mar 24, 2014)

CharlieCarcinogen said:


> So you would have a problem if I told you to hide something??? :blink:


So you regularly hide things from inspectors?



CharlieCarcinogen said:


> You are, very clearly, the last person I would want working for me. No wonder you can't get a job. There are plenty of nail salons hiring around here, good luck


So of all the people in the world he is the absolute last person you would want working for you? :whistling2:


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

CharlieCarcinogen said:


> I am in northern NJ and am looking for a helper. Maybe 25-30 hours per week.
> 
> What experience do you have?
> Will you work for cash? How much?
> ...


Thank you for showing me that this field is the last place that I should be working.
Go fck yourself! 
Expect a massive wave of hate as well buddy! 
Also I did some researching. You are the LAST person I would want to work for considering you are a small business in north Jersey just like my old boss and you don't even know how to advertise correctly. Also, no wonder you can't hold a helper, figures all you electricians in this damn state are the same. Are you a red neck and a hick too? 
I had YouTube channel with 50,000+ subscribers and I was 16 and I knew how to advertise correctly.

HAHAHA Let your comment here be a testament to why I hate northern Jersey electricians so much. For the record I never contradicted or talked back to my boss. I left cause he treated me harshly and expected me to work like a scumbag. 
Also, Last time I checked it didn't take a rocket scientist to understand you aren't supposed to hide **** if it isn't code approved. No wonder you are a small business...

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## CharlieCarcinogen (Aug 8, 2015)

NC Plc said:


> So you regularly hide things from inspectors?


 Yes. I very rarely get inspections. When I do, I hide as much as I can. For example, I recently did a service upgrade and added 3 new circuits for AC units. I hid the 3 new circuits so that the customer didn't have to pay more for the permit and lots more for AFCI's.



> So of all the people in the world he is the absolute last person you would want working for you? :whistling2:


Yes, there is nothing worse than a first week helper giving his opinion.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

6 pages. At his age I would already have gotten hired by at least two companies in the same time. It is not this poster that amazes me, its all the gurgleslurp replies he has been getting.


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

CharlieCarcinogen said:


> Yes. I very rarely get inspections. When I do, I hide as much as I can. For example, I recently did a service upgrade and added 3 new circuits for AC units. I hid the 3 new circuits so that the customer didn't have to pay more for the permit and lots more for AFCI's.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, there is nothing worse than a first week helper giving his opinion.


Nothing worse than having no helper at all! Man, thank you so much for your comment. This is grade one irony. 
I'm just going to continue my conversation with the people that actually provided me with some decent information. 
(You also didn't read the thread to begin with before posting? My brain...)

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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

macmikeman said:


> 6 pages. At his age I would already have gotten hired by at least two companies in the same time. It is not this poster that amazes me, its all the gurgleslurp replies he has been getting.


Then why are you on this thread posting this? I literally asked for information. That's all I've asked for. I even STATED that it was my mistake describing this thread based off how frustrated I was. I need to find a way to mute people like you...

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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)




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## CharlieCarcinogen (Aug 8, 2015)

I Love it :thumbup: Let him keep digging his hole :laughing:


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

CharlieCarcinogen said:


> I Love it  Let him keep digging his hole :laughing:


No worries. There is a reason a report button exists.  
Unfortunately there isn't one for the work you do.

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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

Davethaboss said:


> No worries. There is a reason a report button exists.
> Unfortunately there isn't one for the work you do.
> 
> Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk



I'd get off that high horse. There's a thread here identical to yours about once a week with some boo hoo sob story about how the trades just not working out the way they dreamed it would. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

ponyboy said:


> I'd get off that high horse. There's a thread here identical to yours about once a week with some boo hoo sob story about how the trades just not working out the way they dreamed it would.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I don't know man, I did research for threads before and it is my mistake really. I should've worded this thread as: "different niches for an individual who finished VoTech for Electrical." 
I was also trying to avoid a sob story and I tried editing my first post that started the thread but, I'm afraid the damage is done...

Oh and to answer one of your comments. Reason there are so many sob stories is because many people bought into the whole " trade school" dream. I did as well. I thought it would work out and that I wouldn't have to go to college but it turned out quite different. 
However with all due respect, it would be nice to see the story from the perspective of the one who said it. 
I'm afraid many people like me bought into the false impression that the trade force is a dream!

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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Davethaboss said:


> I just finished reading your comment. I didn't read it correctly to begin with but I 're read what you quoted and then I was able to see your REAL comment.
> I find it quite hopeless to believe that your whole life has been predestined from the start. If this was the case life would have no meaning. My opinion however is I believe you DO NOT need a high IQ to do menial tasks. However, our brains do not operate at 100%. Some people may be able to control larger percentages than others. That's the only way I can understand it in a physical sense.
> My next question is why would America allow the KGB lies to seep into American media?
> Even other non-communist countries stated that the Americans did commit these acts as I stated previously.
> ...



Even older generations it seems. Said some things on another forum about how we could better our installs as an innocent opinion, turned into pages of trying to personally discredit me rather then sit down and actually try to figure out what I was trying to say. Education teaches us to fear new knowledge. 

If I could be your mentor I would. I think you have the potential thats for sure :thumbsup:


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## CharlieCarcinogen (Aug 8, 2015)

Davethaboss said:


> I don't know man, I did research for threads before and it is my mistake really. I should've worded this thread as: "different niches for an individual who finished VoTech for Electrical."
> I was also trying to avoid a sob story and I tried editing my first post that started the thread but, I'm afraid the damage is done...
> 
> Oh and to answer one of your comments. Reason there are so many sob stories is because many people bought into the whole " trade school" dream. I did as well. I thought it would work out and that I wouldn't have to go to college but it turned out quite different.
> ...


You see, even when you try to explain it, you still come across as a little baby.

The electrical trade is great, most of us here love it and there are thousands of new people getting into it. 

Just because it doesn't work out for you, it doesn't mean that there is a problem with the trade, it means there is a problem with YOU. I pointed just some of those problems out, but instead of listening, you did what all failed apprentices do.

Now go ahead and attack me again, I need another good laugh.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

CharlieCarcinogen said:


> You see, even when you try to explain it, you still come across as a little baby.
> 
> The electrical trade is great, most of us here love it and there are thousands of new people getting into it.
> 
> ...



I disagree, there is a problem with our trade, I hear stories like this all the time. The majority of apprenticeships could use improvement.


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## CharlieCarcinogen (Aug 8, 2015)

meadow said:


> I disagree, there is a problem with our trade, I hear stories like this all the time. The majority of apprenticeships could use improvement.


There is no apprenticeship in the OP's state.

There is also no difference today than 20 years ago, other than maybe more pussified apprentices. Go off and do your job, if you're good at it, you will excel. There is way too much crying along the way. The OP is a good example of that, *1 week* in the trade and he already has a laundry list of complaints about the type of work his boss does (when they are actually pretty normal things). 

Everyone has got a story about how great it was in the past and how bad it is today. That same thing has been rinsing and repeating for 200 years.


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

CharlieCarcinogen said:


> There is no apprenticeship in the OP's state.
> 
> There is also no difference today than 20 years ago, other than maybe more pussified apprentices. Go off and do your job, if you're good at it, you will excel. There is way too much crying along the way. The OP is a good example of that, *1 week* in the trade and he already has a laundry list of complaints about the type of work his boss does (when they are actually pretty normal things).
> 
> Everyone has got a story about how great it was in the past and how bad it is today. That same thing has been rinsing and repeating for 200 years.


As I said before I never contradicted nor did I tell my boss off. I left on good terms with him and I kept my mouth shut when working with him trying to learn.
I was taught to learn things the RIGHT way because that way you set yourself and others up for success.
I haven't been in this field for one week either. I've been in it for 2 years doing work here and there. This is one person I worked for and this is the time where I was questioning where I should go or what I should do with my life.

I now realize the folly in attacking you. However I was taught that individuals tend to get upset and angry due to issues at their home or other external issues. 
With that said I apologize for what I said earlier and I wish that whatever is going on at your house or whatever problem you are having, ends.
You might respond badly or positive, I don't know. I made peace.


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

meadow said:


> Even older generations it seems. Said some things on another forum about how we could better our installs as an innocent opinion, turned into pages of trying to personally discredit me rather then sit down and actually try to figure out what I was trying to say. Education teaches us to fear new knowledge.
> 
> If I could be your mentor I would. I think you have the potential thats for sure


Thank you for the kind words as usual friend and may good luck come on you and those like you. I'm also happy that if I have a question, I can type it on this here device and you would answer it. I wish there was something I could do for you however my field of expertise is more computer related and a lot less electrical related haha. 
Thank you again my friend.
My first question might be regarding low voltage actually...

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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

CharlieCarcinogen said:


> There is no apprenticeship in the OP's state.
> 
> There is also no difference today than 20 years ago, other than maybe more pussified apprentices. Go off and do your job, if you're good at it, you will excel. There is way too much crying along the way. The OP is a good example of that, *1 week* in the trade and he already has a laundry list of complaints about the type of work his boss does (when they are actually pretty normal things).
> 
> Everyone has got a story about how great it was in the past and how bad it is today. That same thing has been rinsing and repeating for 200 years.



Of course, because its not working out for him.


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## CharlieCarcinogen (Aug 8, 2015)

Davethaboss said:


> As I said before I never contradicted nor did I tell my boss off. I left on good terms with him and I kept my mouth shut when working with him trying to learn.
> I was taught to learn things the RIGHT way because that way you set yourself and others up for success.
> I haven't been in this field for one week either. I've been in it for 2 years doing work here and there. This is one person I worked for and this is the time where I was questioning where I should go or what I should do with my life.
> 
> ...


Alright, I accept your apology and I will apologize for my harshness as well.

Here's is the thing you need to understand about some of us. I came up thru an apprenticeship in local 102, but I spent a lot of time in local 164, I'm sure you heard of both unions and probably applied to one or both of them.

Apprentices were taught their place on the first day. There is no such thing as questioning anyone, even to yourself. You are there to listen and learn. To dig holes and get lunch. It's kinda the way the karate kid was washing cars thinking he wasn't learning anything, but in the end he found out there he was learning valuable lessons. 

Now I am not saying that the one guy you were working for wasn't a doosh, but it's the attitude. When I see a kid with 1 week's experience complaining about a master electrician not pre-twisting, I usually write that kid off as a lost cause. 

You spoke about being open minded earlier in the thread, well that's what you need to be when your boss wants you to hide something. There is way more to life than electrical code. If you ever get into contracting you will learn that real life is different than the by-the-book fantasy land that Mike Holt's forum members will try to fool you into believing.

Yes, you could give up a $4,000 renovation job because you won't hide a junction box like the homeowner wants you to, that is your choice when you are a contractor. That's just an example, but it's the way life goes sometimes. 

You know my biggest problem right now? Finding a good worker. I have work and I need a good part timer, but I can't find one. 

When I talk to other 1-man shops the reason why they turn down work instead of hiring a second guy is always because they can't find someone good. 

So the problem is on both ends.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

meadow said:


> Even older generations it seems. Said some things on another forum about how we could better our installs as an innocent opinion, turned into pages of trying to personally discredit me rather then sit down and actually try to figure out what I was trying to say. Education teaches us to fear new knowledge.
> 
> If I could be your mentor I would. I think you have the potential thats for sure :thumbsup:



Ahh yes, I remember that discussion. Nobody tried to discredit you, issue was taken with your claim to be an electrician.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

MTW said:


> Ahh yes, I remember that discussion. Nobody tried to discredit you, issue was taken with your claim to be an electrician.



Of course. Something was needed to discard everything I said. 




> Are you being intentionally dense?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yet this comes from a guy wanting to abolish licensing


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

meadow said:


> Of course. Something was needed to discard everything I said.


When you propose that we overhaul our system to make it like the British system, then people are going to discard what you're saying because it's not practical or relevant to American wiring systems.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

MTW said:


> When you propose that we overhaul our system to make it like the British system, then people are going to discard what you're saying because it's not practical or relevant to American wiring systems.



Farking a , We need nothing from Europe. Ok, wait, there is some good surf spots, and perhaps Eric Idle, but other than that......


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

What's this thread about, again? I'm confused.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

CharlieCarcinogen said:


> Alright, I accept your apology and I will apologize for my harshness as well.
> 
> Here's is the thing you need to understand about some of us. I came up thru an apprenticeship in local 102, but I spent a lot of time in local 164, I'm sure you heard of both unions and probably applied to one or both of them.
> 
> Apprentices were taught their place on the first day. There is no such thing as questioning anyone, even to yourself. You are there to listen and learn. To dig holes and get lunch. It's kinda the way the karate kid was washing cars thinking he wasn't learning anything, but in the end he found out there he was learning valuable lessons.


I disagree, questioning is how people learn. Not everything in our trade is perfect yet we create the perception it is. Dont say anything and follow tradition otherwise we will use pain compliance. 






> Now I am not saying that the one guy you were working for wasn't a doosh, but it's the attitude. When I see a kid with 1 week's experience complaining about a master electrician not pre-twisting, I usually write that kid off as a lost cause.


:laughing:

Lost cause because he might have some common sense, but god forbid you challenge tradition. I always look to see how I made up my splices before I cap them.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

MTW said:


> When you propose that we overhaul our system to make it like the British system, then people are going to discard what you're saying because it's not practical or relevant to American wiring systems.



I never said that. My point was insulation resistance testing is better then the bang method we have.


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## CharlieCarcinogen (Aug 8, 2015)

meadow said:


> I disagree, questioning is how people learn.


 Bullsh1t. A helper in his first week shouldn't be disparaging the company's owner for not pre-twisting or for hiding something from the inspector.


> :laughing:
> 
> Lost cause because he might have some common sense, but god forbid you challenge tradition.


 Again, bullsh1t. A first week helper should not be challenging tradition.

It's insane for you to say this.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

CharlieCarcinogen said:


> Bullsh1t. A helper in his first week shouldn't be disparaging the company's owner for not pre-twisting or for hiding something from the inspector.


So you are ok with deliberately teaching apprentices to dupe inspectors? What if what was being hidden was dangerous? Nice, you are supporting the destruction of our trade, you rock! :thumbup:








> Again, bullsh1t. A first week helper should not be challenging tradition.
> 
> It's insane for you to say this.


Because its 100% correct and fully evolved in the short 100 years electricity has been here?


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

meadow said:


> I never said that. My point was insulation resistance testing is better then the bang method we have.



This is debatable. Digital insulation testers do not find always find pinhole faults that an old style crank destructive insulation tester would. And 

&&&&&&&&&&& (just for fun)

locating a fault by the bang method at testing time is better than not locating a fault using an electronic megger tester.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

MDShunk said:


> What's this thread about, again? I'm confused.


Go back to sleep......~CS~:whistling2:


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## CharlieCarcinogen (Aug 8, 2015)

meadow said:


> So you are ok with deliberately teaching apprentices to dupe inspectors?


 Not everything is a lesson. I am OK with a contractor running his business the way he sees fit and not being second guessed and lambasted by a FIRST WEEK HELPER.



> What if what was being hidden was dangerous?


 Who decides what is dangerous? Certainly not a FIRST WEEK HELPER.



> Nice, you are supporting the destruction of our trade, you rock! :thumbup:


 Wow, the hyperbole is almost nauseating. Is the sky falling as well? 

I gave an example of something that I hid from the inspector recently, 3 new circuits added to the house that the homeowner didn't want to pay for AFCI's. Did that really destruct our trade?? :whistling2:

The drama is getting thick in here...



> Because its 100% correct and fully evolved in the short 100 years electricity has been here?


Whether it's correct or not is NOT up to a FIRST WEEK HELPER.


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

meadow said:


> So you are ok with deliberately teaching apprentices to dupe inspectors? What if what was being hidden was dangerous? Nice, you are supporting the destruction of our trade, you rock! :thumbup:



So often inspectors are dupes to begin with, and never bother to really study up on the nec, but instead rely on urban myth's floating about in their office on what is an acceptable electrical installation. 

I will give you a for instance. I allowed my son to watch me use 33+ electrical tape to field repair a nm cable that had damage to the outside sheath. I pushed it back on top of the drywall blocking wood where it would not be seen by inspector. Because if he saw it, he would condemn it while holding his index finger pointed up at the sky and giving me a speech about no pride in my work and so forth and so on. Meanwhile UL years ago said tape it up if there is no damage to the conductor insulations......


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

CharlieCarcinogen said:


> Not everything is a lesson. I am OK with a contractor running his business the way he sees fit and not being second guessed and lambasted by a FIRST WEEK HELPER.


 All observation is learning, young minds copy old ones. 





> Who decides what is dangerous? Certainly not a FIRST WEEK HELPER.


 How do you know? If he has been studying theory before hand? Right there you desparge the future. 

This is exactly why micromind could not do an apprenticeship, because if he shares his knowledge out of innocence guys like you will abuse him. 





> Wow, the hyperbole is almost nauseating. Is the sky falling as well?


No point in explaining, it would go over your head anyways. 






> I gave an example of something that I hid from the inspector recently, 3 new circuits added to the house that the homeowner didn't want to pay for AFCI's. Did that really destruct our trade?? :whistling2:



Nope, but if that attitude was applied to something else... 





> The drama is getting thick in here...
> 
> 
> Whether it's correct or not is NOT up to a FIRST WEEK HELPER.


Why? Explain. Something about a first week helper speaking his mind is triggering something here...


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

macmikeman said:


> So often inspectors are dupes to begin with, and never bother to really study up on the nec, but instead rely on urban myth's floating about in their office on what is an acceptable electrical installation.



Teach the inspector why he was wrong, let the apprentice know to. In cases like this never keep your mouth shut. 



> I will give you a for instance. I allowed my son to watch me use 33+ electrical tape to field repair a nm cable that had damage to the outside sheath. I pushed it back on top of the drywall blocking wood where it would not be seen by inspector. Because if he saw it, he would condemn it while holding his index finger pointed up at the sky and giving me a speech about no pride in my work and so forth and so on. Meanwhile UL years ago said tape it up if there is no damage to the conductor insulations......



UL said it was fine as long as the conductor insulation wasn't damaged, but if the inspector saw 33 he would not know that. But in any case I hope you told your soon not to do it down the road.


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## CharlieCarcinogen (Aug 8, 2015)

meadow said:


> All observation is learning, young minds copy old ones.


 And again, not everything is a lesson. After a few years in the trade, the helper will figure out what he thinks is right and what he wants to do when he does it on his own.


> How do you know? If he has been studying theory before hand? Right there you desparge the future.


 I don't care what a first week helper has studied. "Desparge" the future? Are you on crack?


> This is exactly why micromind could not do an apprenticeship, because if he shares his knowledge out of innocence guys like you will abuse him.


I don't know what this means, but it makes just as little sense as the rest of what you said.



> No point in explaining, it would go over your head anyways.


 ie. "I dont have a reply so I am going to cop out."



> Nope, but if that attitude was applied to something else...


 What? 



> Why? Explain. Something about a first week helper speaking his mind is triggering something here...


You want me to explain to you why a first week helper shouldn't be questioning whether 100 years of tradition is correct or not. Are you serious?


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

macmikeman said:


> This is debatable. Digital insulation testers do not find always find pinhole faults that an old style crank destructive insulation tester would. And
> 
> &&&&&&&&&&& (just for fun)
> 
> locating a fault by the bang method at testing time is better than not locating a fault using an electronic megger tester.



I will say a few things:

1. When energizing 277/480 volt high amp gear unless you megger you have no solid conformation the gear will not explode. Most electricians just close the main and move on despite unreal fault current.

2. Meggering new installations proves compliance with 110.7. Id rather leave the job knowing the wiring has integrity, after all thats how isolated ground receptacles came about.

3. Earth fault loop impedance testing confirms a functioning EGC, worth testing when dealing with pools and hot tubs.


These tests are conducted everywhere outside the US and it was something about this that set of a chain of cognitive dissonance. If anything it has proved you will be burned at the stake for taking pride in your work.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

CharlieCarcinogen said:


> And again, not everything is a lesson. After a few years in the trade, the helper will figure out what he thinks is right and what he wants to do when he does it on his own.


By then the apprentice will have been conditioned to take orders and follow exactly as his instructor. If he didnt he would have been booted a long time ago. So yes, a person who is quiet will seem to know whats right especially when thats what the instructor wants to see. As they say you can never go wrong by doing what appears right to others. 






> I don't care what a first week helper has studied. "Desparge" the future? Are you on crack?


Which boils down to "I dont care what you know, its all worthless" even if that knowledge does hold weight. 

In any case I am now a drug addict, awesome!  



> I don't know what this means, but it makes just as little sense as the rest of what you said.


Micromind is a member, do you know him or his history? If not that would be my bad. 




> ie. "I dont have a reply so I am going to cop out."
> 
> What?


I can try, but seeing the pattern already in place... 




> You want me to explain to you why a first week helper shouldn't be questioning whether 100 years of tradition is correct or not. Are you serious?


Everyone has a moral compass, and some who go into apprenticeships already have been self educating and thus are no oblivious to whats going on so they will give their input.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Sabrina is a no show here today. Probably hitting a little white ball around. 
Perfect example of a first year apprentice and how they act.


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## CharlieCarcinogen (Aug 8, 2015)

macmikeman said:


> Sabrina is a no show here today. Probably hitting a little white ball around.
> Perfect example of a first year apprentice and how they act.


I miss him so much


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Who is Sabrina?


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## CharlieCarcinogen (Aug 8, 2015)

meadow said:


> Who is Sabrina?


My BFF.


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

CharlieCarcinogen said:


> My BFF.


I explained to you I've been in this field for 2 YEARS. This is one job where I quit after two weeks. 
Again, I need caps lock for this.
I NEVER QUESTIONED MY BOSS.

I NEVER TALKED BACK TO HIM.

HE CALLED ME BTCH EVERY DAY AND I WOULD RESPOND.

I NEVER REFUSED TO DO ANY JOBS

I SWEAT EVERY DAY TRYING TO FIND SOMETHING TO DO BECAUSE HE WOULD FREAK OUT.

I needed to do that for emphasis.

Working for him was degrading. Just like all the other ELECTRICIANS that were around and would scream at me if I had a question.
Please stop saying things that aren't true. I can give you a whole history if you want.
I also remember micromind and what he told me.
The older electricians have all kinds of problems. The problem is going around those and finding somewhere where you can work in peace and learn a thing or two. 
You want to know why I follow the rules so much?
All I did in school was study the NEC and apply the codes I learned to my work. I memorized some of these codes. So if the codes were created just so they would be broken, what was the point of having them in the first place? That's like saying why do we have laws in the U.S. when there's crime? For safety. I've heard countless stories of people dying and I personally knew someone that died due to "shortcutting" these codes. 
Don't ever tell me that shortcutting codes is worth it. Go say that to my friends poor family and the coffin.

I left the job not because I couldn't handle it but, because either he would have a tamper tantrum, I would die due to him not telling me if the power was on, and there was no way I could progress. 
I was so annoyed I didn't even ask for my pay check for that week knowing he would be stingy with it and we'd be having an argument as we are now.

I don't see why I can't question things on a forum? 
My Lord, I realize now so many electricians are bent on up holding their tradition and if you refuse to conform. POOF! Fired.
This is only my opinion but I'm an apprentice so who gives a sht right?
You small business owners have a perverted version of what a good worker is. Not a dog that you give commands to, not racially profiling that helper, not risking his life instead of yours, not paying liability just in case he dies so it is not your fault.

I am in shock, that some people here are in favor of this.

Please again re-read everything I've written down.

Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

meadow said:


> Who is Sabrina?


I know who Sabrina is. 
Let me tell you a very interesting story. There was a Sabrina where I was working. He was considered a legend because he did exactly as he was told just like Stanley in The Stanley Parable (if you get that reference cheers!) HE LEFT because he realized he could find another job elsewhere doing technology maintenance. Meanwhile the helper to fill Sabrina's legendary boots, which was me, was a failure. But Sabrina'a boss never found out the helper actually KNEW Sabrina and was trying to contact Sabrina to get a job. The helper actually received help from Sabrina and learned Sabrina had used his boss just to meet new people and have something to put on his resume. Now the helper is contemplating what path he should take. However the end of the story is that the boss was the real dupe and both the helpers profited more from him then he did from them. 
My two weeks weren't for nothing. I learned a thing or two.  

Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


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## degupita (Jun 5, 2015)

I hear doing electrical on those straw houses in Honolulu create callouses on the hand. 
And the straw houses below the belt.


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

degupita said:


> I hear doing electrical on those straw houses in Honolulu create callouses on the hand.
> And the straw houses below the belt.


You are a legend! The master of change the subject! Hahaha
Even if you could wire those homes where the hell would you get enough power , to power an entire neighborhood? A volcano? oh wait!
Enjoy your vacation boss!

Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

The two of you are being insensitive to Polynesians and are acting racist. I'm reporting the both of you to Janet Reno.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

meadow said:


> By then the apprentice will have been conditioned to take orders and follow exactly as his instructor. If he didnt he would have been booted a long time ago. So yes, a person who is quiet will seem to know whats right especially when thats what the instructor wants to see. As they say you can never go wrong by doing what appears right to others.


Funny you speak of apprenticeships when you've never done one and you've never worked a day in the trade in your life.


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## degupita (Jun 5, 2015)

Davethaboss said:


> You are a legend! The master of change the subject! Hahaha
> Even if you could wire those homes where the hell would you get enough power , to power an entire neighborhood? A volcano? oh wait!
> Enjoy your vacation boss!
> 
> Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


You can wire those homes. I have done straw bale houses here.

That straw house there in the pic probably has electrical.

But as far as where to get the power, ask macmikeman, he lives there.

You missed what I was going for?

I am not here to talk about weapons of mass deception and Saddam, I am here to talk about electrical and stand up for apprentices.


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

degupita said:


> You can wire those homes. I have done straw bale houses here.
> 
> That straw house there in the pic probably has electrical.
> 
> ...


I am actually really confused. How does a straw house apply to an apprentice? Oh wait is this subversive humor like you taught me? 
Why is macmikeman calling me racist? I'm a dumbass apprentice that doesn't know anything remember?
For the record, I was quite intrigued about what telsa said. Like REALLY intrigued. I could've continued it in off-topic but meh didn't feel like it. Plus, that stuff interests me. Whenever the subject comes up I can't resist.

Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


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## CharlieCarcinogen (Aug 8, 2015)

macmikeman said:


> The two of you are being insensitive to Polynesians and are acting racist. I'm reporting the both of you to Janet Reno.


Racism really bothers me, I think we should abolish it.


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

macmikeman said:


> The two of you are being insensitive to Polynesians and are acting racist. I'm reporting the both of you to Janet Reno.


Who's Janet Reno? How am I being racist? I'm a dumbass apprentice remember? Is Janet Reno a mod or something? If so, You've been reported AWHILE ago.

Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

CharlieCarcinogen said:


> Racism really bothers me, I think we should abolish it.


Impossible to abolish. People will be people. Unless you brainwash or re program them. In that case, NOW WE'RE TALKING.

Thanks for reading what I said.  

Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


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## degupita (Jun 5, 2015)

Davethaboss said:


> Who's Janet Reno? How am I being racist? I'm a dumbass apprentice remember? Is Janet Reno a mod or something? If so, You've been reported AWHILE ago.
> 
> Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


Janet Reno is not even in office of any kind anymore, and my comment is directly based on defending apprentices.


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## CharlieCarcinogen (Aug 8, 2015)

Davethaboss, do you still have a bedtime set by your parents? Cause it's 10:15.


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

MTW said:


> Funny you speak of apprenticeships when you've never done one and you've never worked a day in the trade in your life.


I don't even know you but, wow. I started quite a drama war here it seems. Meadow seems like a nice guy. I will await his response.

Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

CharlieCarcinogen said:


> Davethaboss, do you still have a bedtime set by your parents? Cause it's 10:15.


You entertain me thoroughly.  
I've made my peace seems like you haven't made yours. Also, why do you try to pick on someone who is CLEARLY younger than you? 
Oh and my biggest question. What nail salons are open? I'm looking for a job there. I'll send you a full report on how the dumbass apprentice Dave is doing.

Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


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## CharlieCarcinogen (Aug 8, 2015)

If you can't handle a little ribbing like this, then this trade definitely isn't for you.


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

degupita said:


> Janet Reno is not even in office of any kind anymore, and my comment is directly based on defending apprentices.


Never knew this. Good stuff to know.
I apologize for not understanding your comment.

Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Davethaboss said:


> I don't even know you but, wow. I started quite a drama war here it seems. Meadow seems like a nice guy. I will await his response.
> 
> Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


You and him have a lot in common, you have a week in the trade and he has zero in the trade.


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

CharlieCarcinogen said:


> If you can't handle a little ribbing like this, then this trade definitely isn't for you.


Dammit. I thought I was doing a pretty damn good job. Back to bed it is I guess...


Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

MTW said:


> You and him have a lot in common, you have a week in the trade and he has zero in the trade.


What makes you say that?
I've also said I've spent two years in this trade. Don't know where you got one week from...
Also, do you mind giving me any advice on the topic at hand?
As said at the start any advice is helpful!

Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


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## CharlieCarcinogen (Aug 8, 2015)

Davethaboss said:


> What makes you say that?
> I've also said I've spent two years in this trade. Don't know where you got one week from...
> Also, do you mind giving me any advice on the topic at hand?
> As said at the start any advice is helpful!
> ...


You didn't spend 2 years in the trade. You said you were 18.

When an apprentice says he spent 2 years in the trade, I expect to see at the very least 4,000 hours of verifiable work experience, signed and stamped by a licensed master electrician.

How many hours do you have listed on these forms: http://www.njconsumeraffairs.gov/elec/Applications/Work-Experience-Certification.pdf ??


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

CharlieCarcinogen said:


> You didn't spend 2 years in the trade. You said you were 18.
> 
> When an apprentice says he spent 2 years in the trade, I expect to see at the very least 4,000 hours of verifiable work experience, signed and stamped by a licensed master electrician.
> 
> How many hours do you have listed on these forms: http://www.njconsumeraffairs.gov/elec/Applications/Work-Experience-Certification.pdf ??


I said 2 years doing simple jobs here and there. My father's friend, another guy I know that is an electrician, and my instructor I worked with in 2 years. I do not mean day after day 2 years. As I said in my opening thread I've done work here and there over the course of 2 years. I actually was interested in this field when I was 15. I started my tech school when I was 16 now I'm 18. That's two years I spent doing work and learning. I don't know. If that doesn't count as two years, I don't know what does.

I never got any of it documented. I was working for free and would take whatever they felt like giving me.

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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Have a nice day.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Davethaboss said:


> Meadow seems like a nice guy.


A nice guy? Yes.

An electrician? Definitely not.


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

macmikeman said:


> Have a nice day.


Will do. I think it's night by you? So good night. It's still morning by me. Thanks for the advice by the way.

Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


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## CharlieCarcinogen (Aug 8, 2015)

Davethaboss said:


> I said 2 years doing simple jobs here and there.


 But that's a lot different than saying you've "been in the field for 2 years" or you've "spent two years in the trade" like you keep saying. You're trying to sneak one by us.

When I was in high school I took electricity and electronics classes, but I still don't add those 4 years to my resume nor do I count them as "being in the field".



> I don't know. If that doesn't count as two years, I don't know what does.


I showed you above what counts as 2 years, I was very clear about it, I even linked you to the document. Your problem is that you just don't want to listen.


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

MTW said:


> A nice guy? Yes.
> 
> An electrician? Definitely not.


I apologize. I can't quite see why you say that? Do you know him personally or...? I think it's because I haven't been around too long on this forum.
Ah, sorry for asking again but do you have any advice for me? A simple no would do. I apologize again for bothering you.

Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

I gave you a very simple piece of advice, but you didn't like it. Actually I gave you two, the second being ''have a nice day''.


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## degupita (Jun 5, 2015)

CharlieCarcinogen said:


> You didn't spend 2 years in the trade. You said you were 18.
> 
> When an apprentice says he spent 2 years in the trade, I expect to see at the very least 4,000 hours of verifiable work experience, signed and stamped by a licensed master electrician.
> 
> How many hours do you have listed on these forms: http://www.njconsumeraffairs.gov/elec/Applications/Work-Experience-Certification.pdf ??


In a perfect world you can expect that. Around this world, it is 2 out of 5 chance that the people you work for, have a masters, will record your hours like they say they will, signed and stamped.

I have been doing electrical much longer. But the last 2 years, of the companies or individual electrical contractors I worked for, 0 to none have actually recorded my hours.

I am going to have to keep on them until they do.

But the guy Dave worked for, doesn't sound like a master electrician. He sounds like someone that isn't licensed at all, and learned electrical from Home depot books. Assuming he can read. And even then, still doesn't do it right.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Davethaboss said:


> I apologize. I can't quite see why you say that? Do you know him personally or...? I think it's because I haven't been around too long on this forum.
> Ah, sorry for asking again but do you have any advice for me? A simple no would do. I apologize again for bothering you.
> 
> Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


It's a carry over from a discussion on another forum. Don't mind me.


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

CharlieCarcinogen said:


> But that's a lot different than saying you've "been in the field for 2 years" or you've "spent two years in the trade" like you keep saying. You're trying to sneak one by us.
> 
> When I was in high school I took electricity and electronics classes, but I still don't add those 4 years to my resume nor do I count them as "being in the field".
> 
> ...


I'm confused. Maybe our definitions are different? I am quite in fact listening. I'm actually doing some research on what you just said. 
Maybe I worded it wrong? 
All I'm trying to say is I completed a two year course of schooling and that during that time I worked for multiple people. 
Matter of fact, my teachers told me to include that in my resume. Include that I got OSHA certified, spent 2 years in votech, state my honors/AP classes, compile a list of all the work I've done in the school, and the people that I worked with for free.

Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


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## dawgs (Dec 1, 2007)

Davethaboss said:


> I have applied and my friends have applied and none of us got in. Currently there aren't many employers in my area that I would like to work for because they knew my previous boss and were just like him. I'm just going to do low voltage or find an entry level position fixing electronics or creating networks like my brother. The electrical technical field is a place I don't want to really be in and I don't want to be around it at all to be honest. Also, All the advanced maths and sciences I learned in school will do me no good in this field unless I go to college for electrical engineering which I won't. In all this thread has succeeded and failed in different respects but I got a lot of different perspectives that I was looking for. However the rest of the people on this forum that keep mentioning plumber this, plumber that are the exact people I want to avoid. I also remembered your comment from a while ago calling me a pssy. Another PERFECT reason why I hate people like you in this trade. Go fck yourself.  We need more "meadows and telsas and all the others that actually provided useful information (I wish I could personally thank each one of you)" in this field and less "dawgs". Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


Whatever. I called you a ***** because you were wining like one. Dust yourself off and move on. That was the moral of the story. If you can't then go sell dresses at the mall. And FYI, I help people everyday. It's part of my job.


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## CharlieCarcinogen (Aug 8, 2015)

degupita said:


> In a perfect world you can expect that. Around this world, it is 2 out of 5 chance that the people you work for, have a masters, will record your hours like they say they will, signed and stamped.


 It's actually state law and the OP is in this state as well. One of the contractors didn't want to sign off when I needed him to when I went for my license and the DCA took care of it for me.


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## CharlieCarcinogen (Aug 8, 2015)

Davethaboss said:


> I'm confused. Maybe our definitions are different? I am quite in fact listening. I'm actually doing some research on what you just said.
> Maybe I worded it wrong?
> All I'm trying to say is I completed a two year course of schooling and that during that time I worked for multiple people.
> Matter of fact, my teachers told me to include that in my resume. Include that I got OSHA certified, spent 2 years in votech, state my honors/AP classes, compile a list of all the work I've done in the school, and the people that I worked with for free.
> ...


How many hours have you worked for a licensed electrical contractor?

When telling people how long you have been in the trade, those hours are all you should be quoting, certainly not "2 years".


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

macmikeman said:


> I gave you a very simple piece of advice, but you didn't like it. Actually I gave you two, the second being ''have a nice day''.


I already knew the second part. I was taught that in kindergarten. Thanks for the reminder. I will continue to tell others " have a nice day". Thanks boss!

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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

MTW said:


> It's a carry over from a discussion on another forum. Don't mind me.


Oh I see. Forgive me.

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## degupita (Jun 5, 2015)

CharlieCarcinogen said:


> It's actually state law and the OP is in this state as well. One of the contractors didn't want to sign off when I needed him to when I went for my license and the DCA took care of it for me.


It probably is here too. None of them would do it while I was working for them, because it would cost them $30. One of them said that it can be done retroactively. A larger company I worked for, was supposed to send in the sheets that I filled out every month. Which broke it down to Rough ins, makeup, commercial, residential. 

I will have to get them to send letters that I can send to the department of labor.


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

CharlieCarcinogen said:


> How many hours have you worked for a licensed electrical contractor?
> 
> When telling people how long you have been in the trade, those hours are all you should be quoting, certainly not "2 years".


I apologize because I do not remember every single hour but I will do my best to remember.
This is only an estimate while I try to re collect everything I've done.
So.
Only work days?
If I were to total all the work hours where I was spent doing something it would be maybe like...
I spent my summer when I was 16 working two days of the week with my father doing electrical.
When I was 17 I did work with my instructor who is licensed because he wouldn't be able to instruct if he wasn't, maybe like one month? We went to a bunch of places.
As 18, I spent only about like a month. I did two weeks with my boss and then I did another two with my father's friend.
Should I count the time I spent just watching too?
Oh Lord, there are definitely holes in my time. I can't put a perfect number on it so I just said " over 2 years". 
Didn't realize it would anger people this badly. My bad.
Again none of it is documented. I did what every other kid my age did. Do menial work with people they knew.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Davethaboss said:


> I already knew the second part. I was taught that in kindergarten. Thanks for the reminder. I will continue to tell others " have a nice day". Thanks boss!
> 
> Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


Hey, I went to kindergarten too. Which one did you go to?


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

RIVETER said:


> Hey, I went to kindergarten too. Which one did you go to?


I went to the one for dumbass apprentices. I was a failure though.[emoji20] 
I failed when they kept calling me btch and I wouldn't respond. I would have to growl just so I could pass. Tough times, tough times....

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## CharlieCarcinogen (Aug 8, 2015)

Davethaboss said:


> I apologize because I do not remember every single hour but I will do my best to remember.
> This is only an estimate while I try to re collect everything I've done.
> So.
> Only work days?
> ...


So basically you have 0 time in the trade. 

Working with your unlicensed father and his unlicensed friend and watching your instructor add up to just about nothing.

If you ever want to get your own license, you better start documenting your hours properly. I posted the link to the form above.


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## degupita (Jun 5, 2015)

Davethaboss said:


> I apologize because I do not remember every single hour but I will do my best to remember.
> This is only an estimate while I try to re collect everything I've done.
> So.
> Only work days?
> ...


You didn't give a number, even an estimate.

Your father doesn't count, unless he is a licensed electrician. 
Your instructor may not count, unless you were officially an employee of his, not a student.
The red neck hick you worked for, doesn't count, because he probably wasn't licensed. 

You may be **** out of it for hours.

I have been doing electrical for 15 years, but only the last 2 years have I worked directly for electrical contractors. So 13 years are no hours recoverable.


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## dawgs (Dec 1, 2007)

Davethaboss said:


> I don't know man, I did research for threads before and it is my mistake really. I should've worded this thread as: "different niches for an individual who finished VoTech for Electrical." I was also trying to avoid a sob story and I tried editing my first post that started the thread but, I'm afraid the damage is done... Oh and to answer one of your comments. Reason there are so many sob stories is because many people bought into the whole " trade school" dream. I did as well. I thought it would work out and that I wouldn't have to go to college but it turned out quite different. However with all due respect, it would be nice to see the story from the perspective of the one who said it. I'm afraid many people like me bought into the false impression that the trade force is a dream! Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


 Here's your trade school dream. I attended votec for electrical my junior and senior year. You see I wasn't a very good student and was not going to college. It was my only route. I busted my but for different electrical contractors, some good, some not so good. But I didn't whine about it or give up. I made the best of my situations at all times, working my way through the ranks and testing for my licenses. When I turned 30, I went on my own. Struggled for a while like all new businesses do. It's been 13 years and have done very well. I have a strong customer base, loyal employees, and make damn good living. That's the American Dream in the trades. But you go ahead and just give up, then I won't have to worry about you as competition in the future.


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

CharlieCarcinogen said:


> So basically you have 0 time in the trade.
> 
> Working with your unlicensed father and his unlicensed friend and watching your instructor add up to just about nothing.
> 
> If you ever want to get your own license, you better start documenting your hours properly. I posted the link to the form above.


0 hours? Quite harsh. Maybe on paper.
I guess I'll get that form then. Weird. My instructor never told me anything about it. Just told me get field experience and throw it on your resume. 
I have a question: If you plan on working with electronics or low voltage do you need to plan on getting your license to progress? Or does it not really matter?

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## CharlieCarcinogen (Aug 8, 2015)

Davethaboss said:


> 0 hours? Quite harsh. Maybe on paper.
> I guess I'll get that form then. Weird. My instructor never told me anything about it. Just told me get field experience and throw it on your resume.


 Your instructor doesn't have a clue what he is talking about. I bet $50 he doesn't have an electrical license in NJ either.

No vocational school in NJ is worth a damn. Seriously, you wasted your time going to it. Sorry, but that's all there is to it. NJ is a union state, the IBEW is the only thing that requires an apprenticeship. No other entity is respected in this state. Other states have ABC and a few other organizations, but they are worthless here.

If you want to be an electrician in NJ, there are only 2 options: Join the IBEW or work for a licensed contractor. That's it.


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

degupita said:


> You didn't give a number, even an estimate.
> 
> Your father doesn't count, unless he is a licensed electrician.
> Your instructor may not count, unless you were officially an employee of his, not a student.
> ...


Oh Lord... 
Well there goes all that time...
I couldn't quite remember all the time I did I just did an estimate for the work days through 2 years I "worked" for.
I didn't even get paid my second week for the hick I worked for...
He made me hold an ATS box all day because, I wouldn't call a black guy the n-word. Lol, he said he would fire me too. 

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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Davethaboss said:


> I went to the one for dumbass apprentices. I was a failure though.[emoji20]
> I failed when they kept calling me btch and I wouldn't respond. I would have to growl just so I could pass. Tough times, tough times....
> 
> Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


I seriously hope that you are kidding. I would add an icon but there is no room for me to accept abuse on the job.


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## degupita (Jun 5, 2015)

Davethaboss said:


> 0 hours? Quite harsh. Maybe on paper.
> I guess I'll get that form then. Weird. My instructor never told me anything about it. Just told me get field experience and throw it on your resume.
> I have a question: If you plan on working with electronics or low voltage do you need to plan on getting your license to progress? Or does it not really matter?
> 
> Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


http://www.necanet.org/professional...ents/low-voltage-state-licensing-requirements


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

dawgs said:


> Here's your grade school dream. I attended vote he for electrical my junior and senior year. You see I wasn't a very good student and was not going to college. It was my only route. I busted my but for different electrical contractors, some good, some not so good. But I didn't whine about it or give up. I made the best of my situations at all times, working my way through the ranks and testing for my licenses.
> 
> When I turned 30, I went on my own. Struggled for a while like all new businesses do. It's been 13 years and have done very well. I have a strong customer base, loyal employees, and make damn good living.
> 
> That's the American Dream in the trades. But you go ahead and just give up, then I won't have to worry about you as completion in the future.


I'm afraid that wasn't my grade school dream. I can't afford college and I have plans on doing community work back in my country. I wanted to learn electrical and go back to my country and attempt to help the people there. That's my end goal. Not making a lot of money or getting a big house or being super successful. I also thought electrical was the way to do it. I now realize I should've went to votech for computer and networking. Like telsa said, I'm just not made for the trade like others are.

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## NC Plc (Mar 24, 2014)

Davethaboss said:


> 0 hours? Quite harsh. Maybe on paper.
> I guess I'll get that form then. Weird. My instructor never told me anything about it. Just told me get field experience and throw it on your resume.
> I have a question: If you plan on working with electronics or low voltage do you need to plan on getting your license to progress? Or does it not really matter?
> 
> Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


Electronics is as bad of a field as some areas of IT. Sure, experienced electronics engineers are finding work but the 2 year degree guys are fighting for scraps. Instrumentation is a far stronger field than say electronics design, calibrating flow meters and such.

They're right about the hours, it's quite possible those two years are worthless. My hours are in the ballpark of 3000 out of the 8000 required.

If you want to always be employed, electrical work is decent work. It doesn't pay as much as I would like, but let's be honest does any job really pay as much as you would like to make? Electrical work is paying for my college and I am an apprentice. My work paid for me to take some electrical classes and they're helping with my degree, as well as paying for my PLC learning crap. All in all, it's about finding a good employer. I suggested a union so that you know for a fact your hours will be counted, school is paid for as far as I know, etc.

You can't get hired if you don't make some serious face time with the local employers though.


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

CharlieCarcinogen said:


> Your instructor doesn't have a clue what he is talking about. I bet $50 he doesn't have an electrical license in NJ either.
> 
> No vocational school in NJ is worth a damn. Seriously, you wasted your time going to it. Sorry, but that's all there is to it. NJ is a union state, the IBEW is the only thing that requires an apprenticeship. No other entity is respected in this state. Other states have ABC and a few other organizations, but they are worthless here.
> 
> If you want to be an electrician in NJ, there are only 2 options: Join the IBEW or work for a licensed contractor. That's it.


My instructor as a matter of fact has his license and his own business. He wouldn't be able to teach at my school if he didn't have it. He was also quite successful. 
A lot of people are saying it was useless. I'm starting to see why. I now think it would've been better to go for computer and networking.
I still don't get it.
I learned some good information in votech. Like how to wire simple devices. I even made a make shift train signal by myself. 
I guess there are only two ways...

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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

RIVETER said:


> I seriously hope that you are kidding. I would add an icon but there is no room for me to accept abuse on the job.


I'm kidding about that part. Him and his buddies would call me "btch" all the time just to get a couple kicks. I wouldn't ever respond. I told him my last day I'm re evaluating this decision I've made. He told me man up and stop being a fruit cake.
I hope everyone can see why I am quite bitter. I don't know some people here suggest that I growl back.

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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

degupita said:


> http://www.necanet.org/professional...ents/low-voltage-state-licensing-requirements


Thank you very much looking at it right now.

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## NC Plc (Mar 24, 2014)

Davethaboss said:


> My instructor as a matter of fact has his license and his own business. He wouldn't be able to teach at my school if he didn't have it. He was also quite successful.
> A lot of people are saying it was useless. I'm starting to see why. I now think it would've been better to go for computer and networking.
> I still don't get it.
> I learned some good information in votech. Like how to wire simple devices. I even made a make shift train signal by myself.
> ...


You shouldn't get discouraged so easily. Figure out what you want to do, then go out and do it.

Life, for most of us, isn't easy and requires hard work and determination.



Davethaboss said:


> I'm kidding about that part. Him and his buddies would call me "btch" all the time just to get a couple kicks. I wouldn't ever respond. I told him my last day I'm re evaluating this decision I've made. He told me man up and stop being a fruit cake.
> I hope everyone can see why I am quite bitter. I don't know some people here suggest that I growl back.
> 
> Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


They did it because you didn't say anything back, just took it. Sometimes you have to tell people to take their f***ing job and shove it. Of course I have never worked with such disrespect, but I would walk if it showed up.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Davethaboss;2167714 I even made a make shift train signal by myself.
I guess there are only two ways...
Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk[/quote said:


> Forward...and Back.


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## CharlieCarcinogen (Aug 8, 2015)

Davethaboss said:


> My instructor as a matter of fact has his license and his own business. He wouldn't be able to teach at my school if he didn't have it. He was also quite successful.


 Sorry to break this to you, but successful electrical contractors don't go teach fulltime at trade school in New Jersey.

Also, the reason that it seems like he doesn't have a license is because you said he did not tell you about recording your hours, which is the entire basis to getting a license and being an electrician.



> A lot of people are saying it was useless. I'm starting to see why. I now think it would've been better to go for computer and networking.
> I still don't get it.
> I learned some good information in votech. Like how to wire simple devices. I even made a make shift train signal by myself.
> I guess there are only two ways...
> ...


Trade school is worthless in NJ because it doesn't do anything for you. It's not a requirement. You could learn as much and more working out in the field. 

Trade schools are probably great in other states where it's required. But here they are all garbage and every single person I have ever spoken to about it says it was a waste of their time.


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## NC Plc (Mar 24, 2014)

CharlieCarcinogen said:


> Trade schools are probably great in other states where it's required. But here they are all garbage and every single person I have ever spoken to about it says it was a waste of their time.


As far as electrical in NC is concerned trade school is only good to reduce the number of hours you have to work before you can test for your license. A few classes can be useful, an entire 2 year degree is absolutely worthless.


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## CharlieCarcinogen (Aug 8, 2015)

Davethaboss said:


> I'm kidding about that part. Him and his buddies would call me "btch" all the time just to get a couple kicks. I wouldn't ever respond. I told him my last day I'm re evaluating this decision I've made. He told me man up and stop being a fruit cake.
> I hope everyone can see why I am quite bitter. I don't know some people here suggest that I growl back.
> 
> Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


You keep crying about this one boss that you worked for for a week and a half. Give it up already!


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

CharlieCarcinogen said:


> Sorry to break this to you, but successful electrical contractors don't go teach fulltime at trade school in New Jersey.
> 
> Also, the reason that it seems like he doesn't have a license is because you said he did not tell you about recording your hours, which is the entire basis to getting a license and being an electrician.
> 
> ...


Not sure why you are criticizing education. It is always a good idea to compliment "on the job training " with actual on site work. As a matter of fact the only people that I know of who do not agree are those who did not make it.


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

CharlieCarcinogen said:


> Sorry to break this to you, but successful electrical contractors don't go teach fulltime at trade school in New Jersey.
> 
> Also, the reason that it seems like he doesn't have a license is because you said he did not tell you about recording your hours, which is the entire basis to getting a license and being an electrician.
> 
> ...


I want to give him the benefit of the doubt cause he was a nice guy. He might've forgotten or something. He lives in a big ass house in north Jersey dude. Owns like two mustangs and still has enough to go on vacation. I don't think he has done that bad. I did tell him one time that he mis informed me on stuff regarding the license process but he just brushed it off. Votech in Jersey sucks because there were a bunch of spoiled stoners in my class that would take away from us learning new things. They really need to completely 're work them.
He did say that you learn more working in the field than in school which sounds logical. He actually encouraged us to get a job once we got our license. I tried doing that but I had transportation issues. Meanwhile, other kids that didn't do Jack **** all day would get all these amazing jobs while I was stuck with my head in my books trying to find a job by myself. 
I'm looking through this list of electricians that need help and I knew some of them when I was working. I never get lucky haha.

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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Davethaboss said:


> I want to give him the benefit of the doubt cause he was a nice guy. He might've forgotten or something. He lives in a big ass house in north Jersey dude. Owns like two mustangs and still has enough to go on vacation. I don't think he has done that bad. I did tell him one time that he mis informed me on stuff regarding the license process but he just brushed it off. Votech in Jersey sucks because there were a bunch of spoiled stoners in my class that would take away from us learning new things. They really need to completely 're work them.
> 
> Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


Do you smoke joints every now and then?


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

NC Plc said:


> You shouldn't get discouraged so easily. Figure out what you want to do, then go out and do it.
> 
> Life, for most of us, isn't easy and requires hard work and determination.
> 
> ...


I was risking my job at the time and he told me I don't like it when people talk back. At the time I didn't say anything and I quit on good terms with him. I notified him one day before and told him in a text that I wouldn't be coming in.

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## CharlieCarcinogen (Aug 8, 2015)

RIVETER said:


> Not sure why you are criticizing education. It is always a good idea to compliment "on the job training " with actual on site work. As a matter of fact the only people that I know of who do not agree are those who did not make it.


I am being honest about trade schools in NJ sucking and not being required.

I went thru a very good apprenticeship in the IBEW. But there is no other way to do it here in NJ. The only other way to be an electrician is to work for a licensed contractor. Very few people go thru trade schools here because they are horrible.

You don't have a clue how it works here.


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

CharlieCarcinogen said:


> You keep drying about this one boss that you worked for for a week and a half. Give it up already!


I'm sorry man. I'm bitter about it cause there were other ELECTRICIANS there! And they were fine with it! Like I said I'm looking at this here job list on indeed.com and I already know I'm screwed hahaha.

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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

RIVETER said:


> Do you smoke joints every now and then?


Nope. Marijuana is a gateway drug. We can have this discussion in off-topic if you like? 

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## CharlieCarcinogen (Aug 8, 2015)

Davethaboss said:


> I'm sorry man. I'm bitter about it cause there were other ELECTRICIANS there! And they were fine with it! Like I said I'm looking at this here job list on indeed.com and I already know I'm screwed hahaha.
> 
> Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


OMG, ELECTRICIAN were there while your boss was breaking your balls!!!

Jesus, get over it already.


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

CharlieCarcinogen said:


> OMG, ELECTRICIAN were there while your boss was breaking your balls!!!
> 
> Jesus, get over it already.


Ok. Over it.

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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

CharlieCarcinogen said:


> I am being honest about trade schools in NJ sucking and not being required.
> 
> I went thru a very good apprenticeship in the IBEW. But there is no other way to do it here in NJ. The only other way to be an electrician is to work for a licensed contractor. Very few people go thru trade schools here because they are horrible.
> 
> You don't have a clue how it works here.


Give me your local number and And I guarantee that I can check it out. AND, are you talking about NON Union trade schools separate from the school system?


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## CharlieCarcinogen (Aug 8, 2015)

RIVETER said:


> Give me your local number and And I guarantee that I can check it out. AND, are you talking about NON Union trade schools separate from the school system?


Check what out?

Again, you have no idea what you are talking about. Stick to KY.


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

CharlieCarcinogen said:


> Sorry to break this to you, but successful electrical contractors don't go teach fulltime at trade school in New Jersey.
> 
> Also, the reason that it seems like he doesn't have a license is because you said he did not tell you about recording your hours, which is the entire basis to getting a license and being an electrician.
> 
> ...


ALL trade schools suck here? That's false. I know plenty of people that finished Lincoln tech and other places where they are making more than me and you combined. It's not electrical but HVAC controls. Even in low voltage I know a couple people that are doing REALLY well. I don't know about electrical though. However don't generalize all of them into one clump. That's a little unfair.

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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

CharlieCarcinogen said:


> Check what out?
> 
> Again, you have no idea what you are talking about. Stick to KY.


I had you figured out from your first post.


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## CharlieCarcinogen (Aug 8, 2015)

Davethaboss said:


> ALL trade schools suck here? That's false. I know plenty of people that finished Lincoln tech and other places where they are making more than me and you combined.


 I am talking about electrical trade schools. And you have absolutely no idea what I make.

Also, I never said that someone who went to a trade school won't succeed. I said that going to the school is, in most cases, unnecessary and the person who did so regrets wasting the time and money.

I've been in this trade (as in actually working, dealing with tradesmen and contractors daily) for 18 years now. Out of all the people I know who have gone to a non-union trade school, not a single one of them ever said it was worth it. The only people who go these days are people so far removed from the trade that they don't know any better. That's the truth. If you knew someone in the trade, they would tell you to either join the union or go to work for a non-union contractor. Those are the only two realistic choices. Going to a non-union trade school is not a viable option here. 

That's the last time I am going to say it.


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## CharlieCarcinogen (Aug 8, 2015)

RIVETER said:


> I had you figured out from your first post.


No, you did not.

You're some guy from a far away state trying to argue something that is very specific to this state alone.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

CharlieCarcinogen said:


> I am talking about electrical trade schools. And you have absolutely no idea what I make.
> 
> Also, I never said that someone who went to a trade school won't succeed. I said that going to the school is, in most cases, unnecessary and the person who did so regrets wasting the time and money.


It is important for you to know that we all are kind of in the same boat. We get knowledge from others...and we go from there. If you had a bad experience in your education and are now really successful in spite of it just tell us.


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

CharlieCarcinogen said:


> I am talking about electrical trade schools. And you have absolutely no idea what I make.
> 
> Also, I never said that someone who went to a trade school won't succeed. I said that going to the school is, in most cases, unnecessary and the person who did so regrets wasting the time and money.


I don't really care honestly how much you make, just trying to make a comparison. You also stated:
Trade school is worthless in NJ because it doesn't do anything for you. It's not a requirement. You could learn as much and more working out in the field. 

Trade schools are probably great in other states where it's required. But here they are all garbage and every single person I have ever spoken to about it says it was a waste of their time."
So every person you have spoken to has said it was a waste of time? 
I have never met anyone that has said this. So do you believe going to college is a waste of time too? What if it was for an associate's degree?

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## CharlieCarcinogen (Aug 8, 2015)

RIVETER said:


> It is important for you to know that we all are kind of in the same boat. We get knowledge from others...and we go from there. If you had a bad experience in your education and are now really successful in spite of it just tell us.


I was very clear in what I told you. 

I went thru a great IBEW apprenticeship which included top notch in-class training and I would recommend it to anyone. However, not everyone can get into the union. For those people who can't get in, the ONLY other option to become an electrician is to go work for a non-union contractor.

Going to one of the very few electrical trade schools in NJ is not an option, it is a stupid mistake. In a state with such a high union union marketshare, the non-union education offerings are complete garbage. It's not like other states in which the ABC and other organizations setup good schools. I have said this same thing over and over in this thread, yet you keep arguing it.

You don't understand that because you are not in this state, so you should stop arguing it.


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

RIVETER said:


> I had you figured out from your first post.


Don't mind Charles. He is a good guy. He just needs some roughing to, that's all. Let me assure you not all people from Jersey are like me and Charles despite the common stereotype.
Plus this damn state has so many dumb laws for everything it's like mind boggling boss.

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## degupita (Jun 5, 2015)

Schools or courses or online courses, even crappy ones, if they are looked at on the basis of what they can do for you. The main one is education.

Besides IEC, I have been doing some free online courses. 

They are little courses that give a basic brush up on terminology, and retention, and keep me thinking on it.

Around here the IBEW apprenticeship school and the IEC have some clout for getting hired.

But only if you have done at-least 2 years of it. That is if you can keep paying for it.

The jobs I have gotten, or applied to, 4 out of 5 don't care about IEC.

They seem to primarily be concerned about how much work I can do in the least amount of hours.

I am considering rebelling, and learning on my own and not by some fast track curriculum. I am not into competition.


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## CharlieCarcinogen (Aug 8, 2015)

Davethaboss said:


> So every person you have spoken to has said it was a waste of time?


 Yes.


> I have never met anyone that has said this.


 Because you don't know any electrician. You know your dad and his friend, neither of which are licensed electrician. You know your instructor, who is most certainly not going to say the school he works at sucks. Who else? 



> So do you believe going to college is a waste of time too? What if it was for an associate's degree?


 For an electrician? Absolutely a waste of time. 

If you want to advance past an electrician, then a degree might help.


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## CharlieCarcinogen (Aug 8, 2015)

degupita said:


> Schools or courses or online courses, even crappy ones, if they are looked at on the basis of what they can do for you. The main one is education.
> 
> Besides IEC, I have been doing some free online courses.
> 
> ...


Don't get me wrong, if you want to go to school or do online training for solely for the learning aspect, I support that 100%. All I am saying is that it won't help you in NJ. It's not going to help you get your license and it won't help you get a job.


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

CharlieCarcinogen said:


> Yes.
> Because you don't know any electrician. You know your dad and his friend, neither of which are licensed electrician. You know your instructor, who is most certainly not going to say the school he works at sucks. Who else?
> 
> For an electrician? Absolutely a waste of time.
> ...


Electricians*, boss. I know my teacher, his boss, another company which I won't give the name of located in central Jersey, and another guy who actually graduated from my school and started his own business! I tried getting a job with him but he had no positions available. There are countless other success stories from my school and I've seen them first hand. The main reason I went to school. 
You'll be asking for the names of the companies.
I will not provide them. I already know what the possible side effects could be.

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## degupita (Jun 5, 2015)

The unions are like cults. They beat into people's heads that everything else, without their influence sucks.

I am not opposed to unions, I am just opposed to singular thinking.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

CharlieCarcinogen said:


> I was very clear in what I told you.
> 
> I went thru a great IBEW apprenticeship which included top notch in-class training and I would recommend it to anyone. However, not everyone can get into the union. For those people who can't get in, the ONLY other option to become an electrician is to go work for a non-union contractor.
> 
> ...


You need to withdraw your claws. I am a staunch UNION person and I, like you am very...very successful. However, this forum is about ALL electricians and I want all of them to be successful. I can't believe that New Jersey does not care how their city is wired. Maybe you have a UNION BIAS going on..


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## CharlieCarcinogen (Aug 8, 2015)

Davethaboss said:


> Electricians*, boss. I know my teacher, his boss, another company which I won't give the name of located in central Jersey, and another guy who actually graduated from my school and started his own business! I tried getting a job with him but he had no positions available. There are countless other success stories from my school and I've seen them first hand. The main reason I went to school.
> You'll be asking for the names of the companies.
> I will not provide them. I already know what the possible side effects could be.
> 
> Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


So you know 5 people who think going to trade school is worth it? Or you know 5 people who went to trade school and now know they could have done the exact same thing without wasting time and money in trade school?

Remember that in NJ you need hours, that's all that matters, 10,000 hours. Every hour you sit in trade school is one less hour of work that you could be doing towards getting your license.


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

degupita said:


> The unions are like cults. They beat into people's heads that everything else, without their influence sucks.
> 
> I am not opposed to unions, I am just opposed to singular thinking.


It's really like that in my state. However I'm a non conformist as well and I believe competition is good. However having competition in this state is the last thing you want. I swear, there are so many people with degrees and all kinds of crap but they can't find a job. Union is a mess here. I tried applying but trying to apply to it is like trying to reach space with Coke and Mentos.

Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


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## CharlieCarcinogen (Aug 8, 2015)

RIVETER said:


> You need to withdraw your claws.


 ME? I thought you were the guy who "I had you figured out from your first post." ??? 




> I can't believe that New Jersey does not care how their city is wired. Maybe you have a UNION BIAS going on..


Again, I have no idea what this means, it doesn't make any sense.

Who is talking about wiring NJ cities? What does that have to do with trade schools?


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

MTW said:


> Funny you speak of apprenticeships when you've never done one and you've never worked a day in the trade in your life.




I could say the same about someone wanting to abolish all licensing. I mean if you know what your doing why not just take the test and move on?


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Davethaboss said:


> It's really like that in my state. However I'm a non conformist as well and I believe competition is good. However having competition in this state is the last thing you want. I swear.
> 
> Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


Why do you say that?


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## degupita (Jun 5, 2015)

CharlieCarcinogen said:


> Don't get me wrong, if you want to go to school or do online training for solely for the learning aspect, I support that 100%. All I am saying is that it won't help you in NJ. It's not going to help you get your license and it won't help you get a job.


Well, obviously it won't get your license, but schooling, even in the hell pit of NJ can help you prepare for the license test. Like anywhere, I suspect in New jersey, the state license test deals primarily with theory, Code and much of the information you will rarely, if ever use on the job, but will be taught in electrical schools.

And yes, it could possibly get someone a job. I know in Unions they try and tell people they cannot get anything unless the union talks for them, but I have found otherwise.


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

CharlieCarcinogen said:


> So you know 5 people who think going to trade school is worth it? Or you know 5 people who went to trade school and now know they could have done the exact same thing without wasting time and money in trade school?
> 
> Remember that in NJ you need hours, that's all that matters, 10,000 hours. Every hour you sit in trade school is one less hour of work that you could be doing towards getting your license.


The trade school I went to was free. They went to the same one that was free. I do know now that I'm DEFINITELY not doing night school.

I don't know. It's hard to say wether or not they would've been as successful with or without votech.

You have to give some credit to some of these schools boss. I believe that they played somewhat of a role in dictating how each student advances their career and life in electrical.

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## CharlieCarcinogen (Aug 8, 2015)

degupita said:


> Well, obviously it won't get your license, but schooling, even in the hell pit of NJ can help you prepare for the license test.


 Yeah, there are study courses for that. It would be silly sto spend time in the crapy trade schools they have here just to pass the test when you can spend a couple hundred bucks and a week's worth of evenings to take the study course specifically designed for the NJ test.



> And yes, it could possibly get someone a job. I know in Unions they try and tell people they cannot get anything unless the union talks for them, but I have found otherwise.


No, it's not going to get someone a job. That's what I keep saying. No non-union contractor here cares about a potential applicant going to trade school. They would MUCH rather see more time/experience in the field than one of the crappy trade schools on the resume. I have learned that from 18 years of being in the business and interacting with other tradesmen and contractors daily.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

meadow said:


> I could say the same about someone wanting to abolish all licensing. I mean if you know what your doing why not just take the test and move on?


I already have two state electrical contractor licenses.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

MTW said:


> I already have two state electrical contractor licenses.



Then why gripe about them?


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

degupita said:


> Well, obviously it won't get your license, but schooling, even in the hell pit of NJ can help you prepare for the license test. Like anywhere, I suspect in New jersey, the state license test deals primarily with theory, Code and much of the information you will rarely, if ever use on the job, but will be taught in electrical schools.
> 
> And yes, it could possibly get someone a job. I know in Unions they try and tell people they cannot get anything unless the union talks for them, but I have found otherwise.


What was your last years salary?


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

meadow said:


> Then why gripe about them?



They cost time and money and they provide nothing beneficial in return.


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

RIVETER said:


> Why do you say that?


Our state is so dense that there's not much competition right now because most employers are looking for those with a lot of work experience and that's basically it. School degrees and a degree from this or that don't really play a factor at all. Now if you INCLUDE competition for jobs, people like me would be scavenging for scraps because I would be BEATEN to every job because almost everyone will have more experience than me. Now if you INCLUDE competition among those with no experience which there really isn't much of right now, you'd have a huge cluster you-know-what of inexperienced grads from all kinds of schools with little to no work experience. I can't see in the future unfortunately because it's a talent that I haven't obtained yet
However, if you ask Charles how would it feel going through countless inexperienced workers he'd go berserk.
So then all the employers would probably introduce ANOTHER step that future to be electricians would have to complete in order to work for them and show that they can actually work.
I apologize because I'm ranting a tiny bit but I'm just saying competition in a state as dense with as many people as Jersey is, isn't a good idea. We have other jobs here as examples... 

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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Davethaboss said:


> Our state is so dense that there's not much competition right now because most employers are looking for those with a lot of work experience and that's basically it. School degrees and a degree from this or that don't really play a factor at all. Now if you INCLUDE competition for jobs, people like me would be scavenging for scraps because I would be BEATEN to every job because almost everyone will have more experience than me. Now if you INCLUDE competition among those with no experience which there really isn't much of right now, you'd have a huge cluster you-know-what of inexperienced grads from all kinds of schools with little to no work experience. I can't see in the future unfortunately because it's a talent that I haven't obtained yet
> However, if you ask Charles how would it feel going through countless inexperienced workers he'd go berserk.
> So then all the employers would probably introduce ANOTHER step that future to be electricians would have to complete in order to work for them and show that they can actually work.
> I apologize because I'm ranting a tiny bit but I'm just saying competition in a state as dense with as many people as Jersey is, isn't a good idea. We have other jobs here as examples...
> ...


You don't have to apologize to me. I can sense your delima, Are you currently working in the trade?


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

RIVETER said:


> You don't have to apologize to me. I can sense your delima, Are you currently working in the trade?


As I told a couple folks here, I quit my job and I'm currently on vacation doing tons and tons of research on what I should do as a substitute to becoming an electrician.
I was practically lied to in school and out. Conflicting advice on both sides and I'm on the fence thinking but what dog to let in and which one to leave out in a figurative sense. Some people talk about school and say it was use less, others say it was beneficial, some say it was kind of useful, other say it was a waste of money, etc...

Short story. I am going to apply for an entry level position at a low voltage company. I'm also going to take some online courses on technology and coding seeing that's the only thing "dumbass apprentice Dave" knows how to do good. 

Still doing tons of research haha.

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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Davethaboss said:


> As I told a couple folks here, I quit my job and I'm currently on vacation doing tons and tons of research on what I should do as a substitute to becoming an electrician.
> I was practically lied to in school and out. Conflicting advice on both sides and I'm on the fence thinking but what dog to let in and which one to leave out in a figurative sense. Some people talk about school and say it was use less, others say it was beneficial, some say it was kind of useful, other say it was a waste of money, etc...
> 
> Short story. I am going to apply for an entry level position at a low voltage company. I'm also going to take some online courses on technology and coding seeing that's the only thing "dumbass apprentice Dave" knows how to do good.
> ...


I sensed all of that. I have done well but if I had a mentor "way back then", I would have chosen HVAC. It is so simple. It is a weird phenomena that the easiest thing to do is confusing to the majority of people..


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

RIVETER said:


> I sensed all of that. I have done well but if I had a mentor "way back then", I would have chosen HVAC. It is so simple. It is a weird phenomena that the easiest thing to do is confusing to the majority of people..


Actually I was considering about doing HVAC but my brother does it and I wanted to spite him by showing him I could do better than he could but I failed miserably. 
I also liked electrical. I also enjoyed building electrical stuff and testing it. I also enjoyed finding defects in the most craziest things like an oscilloscope... I loved seeing the stuff I mounted and wired coming to life and lighting up!
I wanted to get a job doing something I enjoy. This thread has taught me a lot regarding that. 
The whole trick in life in my opinion is having a mentor. I think it's way more beneficial learning from a mentor that cares about teaching you instead of instructing and giving you orders. Some of the most influential people had mentors that guided them. Just like Siddhartha, I'm stuck having to be my own mentor for now. Eh, only God knows where I'm headed.
Thanks for the concern though boss! Your comment made for a very drastic change in mood for this thread, which was for the better. Meanwhile, we have a fight going down so I'm going to grab my popcorn and watch this drama unfold! On an electrician forum hahaha. 

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## NsparkyNV (Jul 29, 2015)

This was maybe the weirdest thread I have ever read. Davetheboss some bosses are assholes and you either deal with it or move on. I'm confused, you said you left on good terms yet you can't get on with other contractors because they know your hick boss? If a week or two of working for someone you don't like makes you question trying to become an electrician maybe it's not for you. I'm an apprentice and you put up with being the rookie and jokes played on you and yeah treated like **** sometimes but you pick up what you can learn by watching and listening. If it's so abusive you can't handle it go work somewhere else. You can't judge electricians and the trade in general off of one experience you had. There are all kinds of journeyman out there and some you will know are not that great or suck. You can still learn from them and take what not to do as learning experience. If you ever do make it you will be that much better at your job. This applies to any profession and people you will deal with in life. So yes. Man the **** up and do your time as bitch boy haha! It will pass and if you work hard, watch, listen and only ask questions that are necessary you will be fine. Sounds like you might not have the ability to do that based off what you have put forth in this thread. Not everyone is cut out for it. Just keep in mind these challenges you will face in almost every field you could go into in some form or another. Just my two cents


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## Michigan Master (Feb 25, 2013)

Davethaboss said:


> Union is impossible because I don't meet any of the credentials and most people get in by knowing someone unfortunately.


What credentials do you lack? High school diploma or GED, basic algebra, driver’s license, drug free, passing aptitude test score? If it's this stuff you're talking about you could (and probably should) work on changing that...


degupita said:


> Electrical engineering.


 Davethaboss said he “despises college” so engineering is most likely out of the question.


Davethaboss said:


> I'm at a bad position because I can't see my self going anywhere in this field. I love taking things apart, learning math and theory, I'm even trying to make a game mod as we speak as a hobby, just solving puzzles and problems. I don't know man I'm going to try one more job and then a legitimate entry level position at a low voltage company or something. I'm curious however. Where else can I go to if my electrician thing doesn't work out?


Try another working for another contractor, and if that doesn’t work out maybe low voltage will. 

Honestly I’m not sure what a “game mod” is, but maybe you should consider a career in digital animation and game design or something like that; college is easier if it's a subject you find interesting. They key is to find something you enjoy and then figure out how to make a living at it.
.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

MTW said:


> Could you do a 100 amp to 200 amp service upgrade start to finish without supervision or assistance?



Your kidding right? Of course I can.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

MTW said:


> Uh huh, I believe you. :no:



Really? 4/0 SEU, millbank meter can, duct seal, straps, ground rods, ground clamps, #6 copper for the rods, #4 copper for the water bond... do I need to make a video now?


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

NsparkyNV said:


> This was maybe the weirdest thread I have ever read. Davetheboss some bosses are assholes and you either deal with it or move on. I'm confused, you said you left on good terms yet you can't get on with other contractors because they know your hick boss? If a week or two of working for someone you don't like makes you question trying to become an electrician maybe it's not for you. I'm an apprentice and you put up with being the rookie and jokes played on you and yeah treated like **** sometimes but you pick up what you can learn by watching and listening. If it's so abusive you can't handle it go work somewhere else. You can't judge electricians and the trade in general off of one experience you had. There are all kinds of journeyman out there and some you will know are not that great or suck. You can still learn from them and take what not to do as learning experience. If you ever do make it you will be that much better at your job. This applies to any profession and people you will deal with in life. So yes. Man the **** up and do your time as bitch boy haha! It will pass and if you work hard, watch, listen and only ask questions that are necessary you will be fine. Sounds like you might not have the ability to do that based off what you have put forth in this thread. Not everyone is cut out for it. Just keep in mind these challenges you will face in almost every field you could go into in some form or another. Just my two cents


I appreciate the advice. Believe it or not in my two weeks I spent working I met a couple Electricians that were the same as he was. While looking for a job I notice a trend here in Jersey. No large company is hiring. Only the small businesses that have difficulty holding helpers. Maybe I didn't check well enough but to join the large companies you need to have experience. Experience working for a good contractor not a no namer. People like Charles from my state offered me a job and then revoked it lol. Reason? I refused to hide **** that could potentially kill someone. He will most likely read this but don't get upset Charles please. 
I left on good terms with him and never yelled back at him to show the majority of forum member that still don't see that I was a good helper for him. I just couldn't really deal with him anymore. I didn't get paid a couple days too lol. It just wasn't worth the headache. He was hesitant to pay me to begin with. I'm actually on indeed.com right now looking at some companies but most of them I've already seen before because they are no name companies that can't hold helpers.
I'm off to low voltage to see if the water is different.
Keep in mind this is how it is in Jersey. And Charles and his goon macmike whatever his name is reaction to what I posted just shows how much they can't change. 

Errr I apologize for the confusion. It has been quite an interesting thread! I met a really smart ass dude, a couple old timers, a nice dude getting interrogated by some nasty dude, an apprentice like me, a supporter of apprentices, and a whole lot of people that have just come to post negativity. 
Again read this thread over. It gets pretty damn interesting....

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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

Michigan Master said:


> What credentials do you lack? High school diploma or GED, basic algebra, driver’s license, drug free, passing aptitude test score? If it's this stuff you're talking about you could (and probably should) work on changing that...
> Davethaboss said he “despises college” so engineering is most likely out of the question.
> 
> Try another working for another contractor, and if that doesn’t work out maybe low voltage will.
> ...


Credentials? As Charles pointed out to me, I should've had all the people I worked for (which was for free and a couple bucks here and there) sign and stamp that I worked with them. So like degupita and myself. We lost a whole lot of hours due to my incompetence and not being told that in school. Oh Lord, I have missed tons of stuff...

I despise college for my own reasons. They tend to rob people quite literally through debt and I think they have their own agendas. It's not worth talking about here to add to the confusion we can talk about that in off topic.

Game mod, meaning a hack or introducing a new idea or structure to a video game. I would actually consider this as a full time job but these people sit at desks all day and just test and test and test the most stupidest things...
I can't be stuck in a cubicle like it's Chinese communism all over again.

Definitely going to low voltage.
I also enjoyed working with fiber and I learned a little bit from my bro on how to set up networks, make connections, update computer graphics in real time with switches and valves...( He does HVAC controls...)

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## CharlieCarcinogen (Aug 8, 2015)

Davethaboss said:


> Keep in mind this is how it is in Jersey. And Charles and his goon macmike whatever his name is reaction to what I posted just shows how much they can't change.


Here we go again with a person with less than 2 weeks experience in the trade complaining that I, as a contractor with 18 years in the business, won't change.

This is the problem with many apprentices and why they can find work. Their first week and they already know everything and have the audacity to tell the people who have already been thru it all what to do.


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

Michigan Master said:


> What credentials do you lack? High school diploma or GED, basic algebra, driver’s license, drug free, passing aptitude test score? If it's this stuff you're talking about you could (and probably should) work on changing that...
> Davethaboss said he “despises college” so engineering is most likely out of the question.
> 
> Try another working for another contractor, and if that doesn’t work out maybe low voltage will.
> ...


I forgot to mention! I wanted to make a career out of YouTube! However too much competition and I just can't get noticed...

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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

MTW said:


> Charlie,
> 
> I'll remind you that earlier in this thread that you lambasted Meadow for defending a one week apprentice (or whatever he is) for criticizing his boss for not pre-twisting splices. Point being is I don't believe for one second that a genuine electrician who has actually worked in the field would be encouraging apprentices to be insubordinate and questioning everything their boss tells them. That alone is a strong indicator of any lack of genuine field experience. That's how I read the tea leaves.


Why are you as dumb as everyone else? I apologize for the rudeness...Actually no I don't.
I never questioned everything my boss did I shared at him and did it HIS way. Holy ****, you people are unbelievable! I made one statement regarding wire nuts and now world war 3 is coming...
You are being naive as well for asking for someone credentials OVER THE INTERNET. Are you stupid? 
I'm 18 and I can locate your house, job, etc... Just from one piece of information and then do all kinds of things.

Stay in your little world. Your little delusional world where you believe abolishing license is right. Guess that means driver license is getting thrown in the trash with the gun one too right?

You are unbelievable and just rude.
I still don't think you know how the internet works. Go watch a couple videos on YouTube. Hopefully you know what that is....

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## CharlieCarcinogen (Aug 8, 2015)

Davethaboss said:


> I'm 18 and I can locate your house, job, etc... Just from one piece of information and then do all kinds of things.


No, you can't. You are way out of your league here and I would suggest you back out and keep your mouth shut before you get yourself into real trouble.


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

MTW said:


> Could you please summarize the point you're trying to make? Bottom line, you had no business telling an apprentice it's ok to be insubordinate. You're all but guaranteeing that he won't last a month in the trade.


Insubordination? What is this the military? You've made it clear to me I'm not running from the state but from you Overdramatic electricians. 
First you ask for credentials then you change the subject. I'm dumbass Dave the apprentice remember? 
Unbelievable!

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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

CharlieCarcinogen said:


> Here we go again with a person with less than 2 weeks experience in the trade complaining that I, as a contractor with 18 years in the business, won't change.
> 
> This is the problem with many apprentices and why they can find work. Their first week and they already know everything and have the audacity to tell the people who have already been thru it all what to do.


Not necessarily Charles. I actually like you Charles but you do not like me and that's fair. 
You seem to not understand the trend?
None of you will hold any apprentices.
I know plenty of my friends that have went for jobs but they could never do it with a no name mom and pop shop.
Only with large companies starting off entry level.
The way you react just reminds me of my old boss. I also asked you to not be upset Charles. It's nothing personal Charles. You still are a good friend of mine Charles and I hope you find that very "specific" helper you need. Bitchboy Dave could not fill in the boots it seems. I can't really apologize for that.
I also never doubted how many years you've spent. I've also done quite a lot being honest. I could've straight up lied and I wouldn't be getting as much hate. 
I was thinking..."I wonder how this thread would turn out I'd I was honest on how I felt about my old boss"  That was where I first went wrong. Thread should've been entitled different ways to go for a trade school grad...

Go ahead you can still call me a baby, but you're my friend at the end of the day Charles...


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## Michigan Master (Feb 25, 2013)

telsa said:


> The price of a college degree has doubled since 2001 -- while wages have rolled over.
> Hence, getting a college degree is now a route to poverty -- for the majority.


College is a "quick route to poverty" when you sign up for outrageous debt by borrowing money to purchase something you can’t afford and choose a program that doesn’t pay well or immediately land you a job upon graduation. If you don’t have money in the bank to pay for college, then working your way through, albeit slow, is likely the smarter way to acquire a degree (_many employers offer tuition assistance - see link below_). However, a degree is not necessary to be successful and I believe the trades are a great alternative.
http://www.businessinsider.com/companies-that-will-pay-for-your-tuition-2014-6



Davethaboss said:


> The reason I'm beginning to stress is much more complicated than you think. My family believes I will go nowhere with my life and have labelled me as a failure. They are threatening me that if I do not find a decent job in September they will stop supporting me because I turned 18. Again please forgive me for the sob story, I have to stop doing that.


Sorry to be a hard-ass, but you’re 18 yrs. old, not in school fulltime, and you're not working... Why do you think your parents should support you as an adult while you "figure things out"!? Why can’t you work while trying to determine what path to take? I highly doubt they think you’re a failure at 18, but freeloading yes.



Davethaboss said:


> Nope. Marijuana is a gateway drug.


Yeah, gateway to the refrigerator… :laughing: 
This thread is out of control. LanceBass is that you? 
.


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

CharlieCarcinogen said:


> No, you can't. You are way out of your league here and I would suggest you back out and keep your mouth shut before you get yourself into real trouble.


Do you even know what MS-DOS works? Do you even know what a VPN is?
Do you know what the HackForums are?
Use all of these plus an executable and POOF you are in business both to track them down and not get caught and possibly upload a virus based off if they have WPA or not...
My friend electrical isn't my field of expertise but I am a computer nerd. 
Simply type in Google how to trace or track someone down and they would provide people like you with ways to do it, Charles.
What's real trouble? This IS THE INTERNET my friend.
The minute any person here posts real life information I believe legal action can be taken against that individual.

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## CharlieCarcinogen (Aug 8, 2015)

Davethaboss said:


> Do you even know what MS-DOS works? Do you even know what a VPN is?
> Do you know what the HackForums are?
> Use all of these plus an executable and POOF you are in business both to track them down and not get caught and possibly upload a virus based off if they have WPA or not...
> My friend electrical isn't my field of expertise but I am a computer nerd.
> ...


 Like I said, you are way out of your league and just proved it with this post filled with terms that you don't even understand.

But I am always up for a challenge. Everyone on this forum already knows exactly who MTW is. Everyone except for you. So do your little script kiddie BS and tell us who MTW is. When you fail or come up with some lame excuse as to why you can't do it, you'll show your ass.


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

Michigan Master said:


> College is a "quick route to poverty" when you sign up for outrageous debt by borrowing money to purchase something you can’t afford and choose a program that doesn’t pay well or immediately land you a job upon graduation. If you don’t have money in the bank to pay for college, then working your way through, albeit slow, is likely the smarter way to acquire a degree (_many employers offer tuition assistance - see link below_). However, a degree is not necessary to be successful and I believe the trades are a great alternative.
> http://www.businessinsider.com/companies-that-will-pay-for-your-tuition-2014-6
> 
> 
> ...


I actually watched a recent video on VICE news about the business of life and paying for college. It isn't quite attainable for people in my situation and for the story regarding my parents you being a hardass is COMPLETELY understood. Another sob story I should probably delete right now.

As I said before I plan on doing either low voltage or networking.
What are your thoughts?

Err the guy asked me to do you want to smoke a joint for whatever reason, so I told him no. I didn't just randomly say it to add to the confusion that's already here.

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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

CharlieCarcinogen said:


> Like I said, you are way out of your league and just proved it with this post filled with terms that you don't even understand.


Charles my friend....
I just provided a basic tutorial on how to do what you just asked and I encouraged you my friend, to go on Google to search the whole thing up.
As I explained we both know two different things. You know more electrical and I am a computer nerd.
However don't question my aspirations.
I would be in college right now going for computer science but alas, it is too damn expensive.

Do you know what torrenting is?
I'll explain what all the terms are and what you use them for.
I thought the common person knew what these were?
No worries Charles my friend.
It's the best way I can explain it however if you would like me too, let us go to off topic before any more confusion happens, Charles.

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## CharlieCarcinogen (Aug 8, 2015)

Davethaboss said:


> Charles my friend....
> I just provided a basic tutorial on how to do what you just asked and I encouraged you my friend, to go on Google to search the whole thing up.
> As I explained we both know two different things. You know more electrical and I am a computer nerd.
> However don't question my aspirations.
> ...


You have no idea what my computer knowledge is or how many decades I have of experience. I was literally using the Internet years before you were born. 

I gave you a challenge, since you won't do it, you are apparently lying about what you know. Just like you lied about your electrical experience.


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

Michigan Master said:


> College is a "quick route to poverty" when you sign up for outrageous debt by borrowing money to purchase something you can’t afford and choose a program that doesn’t pay well or immediately land you a job upon graduation. If you don’t have money in the bank to pay for college, then working your way through, albeit slow, is likely the smarter way to acquire a degree (_many employers offer tuition assistance - see link below_). However, a degree is not necessary to be successful and I believe the trades are a great alternative.
> http://www.businessinsider.com/companies-that-will-pay-for-your-tuition-2014-6
> 
> 
> ...


I have a question boss?
I used to dream about working in Google and Apple then I realized the reality.
Verizon provides financial tuition however what do the part time jobs/full time jobs involve?
I was actually considering doing help desk jobs but they are risky. Risky because you can be stuck doing it for years and will never progress.
I do not know what are your thoughts?

Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

CharlieCarcinogen said:


> You have no idea what my computer knowledge is or how many decades I have of experience. I was literally using the Internet years before you were born.
> 
> I gave you a challenge, since you won't do it, you are apparently lying about what you know. Just like you lied about your electrical experience.


Ah a challenge? I love challenges!
Your computer knowledge is of little importance to me.
Why so proud too Charles, my friend?
You are denunciating me like I'm a criminal Charles.
What the hell? I thought we were friends...
I asked you simply if you knew what torrenting was and the major sites used.
YOU didn't answer it and if you want me to explain and add confusion to this thread then I'll do so at your risk however Charles, my friend.


Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


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## CharlieCarcinogen (Aug 8, 2015)

Davethaboss said:


> Ah a challenge? I love challenges!
> Your computer knowledge is of little importance to me.
> Why so proud too Charles, my friend?
> You are denunciating me like I'm a criminal Charles.
> ...


So you are full of BS and you can't find out who MTW is like you bragged about earlier?

You do realize that this right here is why you can't find or keep a job, right? You think you know everything, you never shut up and listen, and you are full of crap.


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Davethaboss said:


> I have a question boss?
> I used to dream about working in Google and Apple then I realized the reality.
> Verizon provides financial tuition however what do the part time jobs/full time jobs involve?
> I was actually considering doing help desk jobs but they are risky. Risky because you can be stuck doing it for years and will never progress.
> ...



As a highly trained medical doctor, (just ask anybody at this forum, they all know) it is easy to spot borderline personality disorder. This probably is the root reason your own family considers you to be a loser who won't go anywhere. Take heart, You are not alone. There are tens of thousands of current 15-20 yr old brats watching Youtube all day long with this disorder, which can be cured incidentally by a good dose of paying rent, mortgage, grocery bills, child care costs, car payments, electrical bills, water and sewage,taxes, car insurance, health insurance, and a host of other obligations, which will take your mind off of yourself all the time. You won't have time to whine when you are finally on your own, with nobody paying your way. Then it will occur to you to listen carefully to your employer, and to hop on one leg when he instructs you to do so. Because your employer is your new daddy, kid, and he is the one paying all the above mentioned bills.


----------



## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

CharlieCarcinogen said:


> So you are full of BS and you can't find out who MTW is like you bragged about earlier?
> 
> You do realize that this right here is why you can't find or keep a job, right? You think you know everything, you never shut up and listen, and you are full of crap.


DISCLAIMER:
Anyone reading this please understand the below comment is completely irrelevant to the main topic. Thank you.



LOL 
Charles why are you so mad?
I never said I could find him earlier.
I said anyone could if he posted his REAL LIFE information online.
Forgive me. Alas, you are a New Jerseyian like myself Charles.
Also I think that problem that you are dealing with is still plaguing you and I pray and hope it may go away so that you can be the Charlie Carcinogen on the Good Side heheh!
Now let us begin.

I'm going to tell you a problem I had and what you would do to fix it.
I essentially tried streaming a video game online with a guy I knew on YouTube who had a decent following on Twitch!
Twitch is a streaming service where you can stream all kinds of stuff. Most people do video games. 
However I set everything up, but I didn't include a facecam because it is too sketchy if people see my face and try tracking me down somehow.
So I went to play my game streaming alas! I was banned and I had a timer on my screen preventing me from joining an online queue. 
So I thought of possible solutions.
I went on a bunch of forums asking for help with my situation.
Then I realized what if I could find the process that runs the timer! Genius!
However I couldn't because it was already under the launcher for the game. Used to launch, patch, and update the game before you login. So then I downloaded a program called CE, CheatEngine. I tried to speed up the timer on my PC in real time and it worked. Once the timer reached 00:00 it would just reverse back to 20:00.
Why could that be?
Why couldn't I inject code into the process that I couldn't find?

Over to you Charles! The question has two answers. If you can't even figure out what the two answers are then you are out of luck. 

Or you could make another "I'm Charlie Carcinogen and I'm proud. You can't answer my questions but I can tell you that you're wrong. Or I can make a generalization and say I don't play games because I have to work to do! Or I can make a lame ass excuse to escape this issue!"

What will it be Charles? Will you provide a lame ass excuse or will you point the finger at me? 
Other are reading Charles... Think carefully....

Meanwhile I'm going to go get some grub. Cheers! [emoji1] 

Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Anybody remember the stockbroker from Chicago? Probably this is the same troll.


----------



## CharlieCarcinogen (Aug 8, 2015)

macmikeman said:


> Anybody remember the stockbroker from Chicago? Probably this is the same troll.


The only thing he got right is when he said that you are my goon :laughing:


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

CharlieCarcinogen said:


> The only thing he got right is when he said that you are my goon :laughing:


The ****ens you say! Why I oughta...........


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## NC Plc (Mar 24, 2014)

Davethaboss said:


> I never said I could find him earlier.
> I said anyone could if he posted his REAL LIFE information online.


You did sort of imply you had the ability to DOXX people and that it was really easy to do. Anyone can run a google search on people and DOXX them if they post real life information. :laughing:

Also you of all people should know that if you're streaming, even without your face in the cam, networking geeks can track you down if they want. I was using Wireshark to monitor traffic over unsecured networks and watching what websites people visit when I was in college for IT. I also had the ability to open Linux and launch a honeypot or pineapple wifi style attack. It doesn't make me a leet hacker, it makes me a nerd with basic networking know-how.

So, basically, you should just ditch the DOXXing talk and stick to your original topic. :laughing:


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## Michigan Master (Feb 25, 2013)

Davethaboss said:


> I actually watched a recent video on VICE news about the business of life and paying for college. *It isn't quite attainable for people in my situation…*


First off I agree that borrowing $50k for college when your current income is $0 is dumb; and you seem like a smart kid but your statement about college being “unattainable for people in your situation” is a total copout! Now you’re *not* going to attend a 4 year university, live on campus, and party like a rock star on weekends; but graduating with bachelor’s degree _IS_ achievable. Instead you’re going to work 50-60 hrs/wk while attending community college before eventually taking night/online courses at a university all while working - a lot. 

Trust me, I've been there and done that; there's an old chinese proverb that says, "_the person who says it cannot be done, should not interrupt the person doing it_." Get a job that has a tuition assistance program and have your employer pay for school so you can spend your paycheck on rent, car, groceries, etc. According to the Society for Human Management, *sixty-one percent* of companies offer some type of education benefits for employees. Do some Googling, you’ll find articles listing some of these companies and what they offer, but there are many, many more out there and a lot of them will give you up to $5,250 per year for school, and some even more.



Davethaboss said:


> As I said before I plan on doing either low voltage or networking. What are your thoughts?


With regards to low voltage or networking I say go for it! I’m having a hard time picturing you digging trenches on a construction site... Also note a larger company will have better odds of having a tuition program. However, with all your talk about computers, maybe you should consider something in the IT field; surely if you’ve invested that much of your own time to learn all this stuff you must enjoy it to a certain extent.
.


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## NsparkyNV (Jul 29, 2015)

I think this guy is a troll and we are all feeding him. He's probably not 18 or in New Jersey. He doesn't take any advice offered and spouts ridiculous crap. Total troll


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## NC Plc (Mar 24, 2014)

NsparkyNV said:


> I think this guy is a troll and we are all feeding him. He's probably not 18 or in New Jersey. He doesn't take any advice offered and spouts ridiculous crap. Total troll


Well I don't doubt the guy is a kid or teenager based on the excuses he is using, successful adults don't use those. The location is most likely a lie though and he is most likely trolling.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Davethaboss said:


> Why are you as dumb as everyone else? I apologize for the rudeness...Actually no I don't.
> I never questioned everything my boss did I shared at him and did it HIS way. Holy ****, you people are unbelievable! I made one statement regarding wire nuts and now world war 3 is coming...
> You are being naive as well for asking for someone credentials OVER THE INTERNET. Are you stupid?
> I'm 18 and I can locate your house, job, etc... Just from one piece of information and then do all kinds of things.
> ...



Ignore him, taking him for real isn't healthy. Hes just upset because he failed a licensing exam.


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## stuiec (Sep 25, 2010)

meadow said:


> Ignore him, taking him for real isn't healthy.......


Neither is wet-nursing a troll.....just sayin


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

stuiec said:


> Neither is wet-nursing a troll.....just sayin



:laughing: Good point


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

meadow said:


> Ignore him, taking him for real isn't healthy. Hes just upset because he failed a licensing exam.



How much money would you like to bet on that?


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

MTW said:


> How much money would you like to bet on that?



Then tell us what you are so angry about.


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## ElectronFlow (Dec 21, 2014)

Davethaboss said:


> Lol I've seen two of these people already. Instead of giving me advice they tell me I'm a ***** and need to man up. I guess that's advice I don't know lol. I do realize that not all electricians are pricks but a couple are just like on this site.


I think you should become an electrician.
You already have so many skills a good electrician has.

Starting with Davetheboss. It's good to start at the top. Saves time.
Asking advice of strangers, and then arguing with them is another
useful ability many electricians seem to possess.

Sounding whiny without being whiny, and then defending your nonwhinyness
to the death is useful as well. There are lots of people just like you making big money as electricians, and you can too!

Don't like your co workers? They probably feel the same. You can build a lasting work relationship from such a simple beginning.

Oops. i did not realize this thread was 350 posts long in a week. i thought i was flaming a new troll, not one that was all soggy and wet from everyone fondling it.

ick.


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## NsparkyNV (Jul 29, 2015)

NC Plc said:


> NsparkyNV said:
> 
> 
> > I think this guy is a troll and we are all feeding him. He's probably not 18 or in New Jersey. He doesn't take any advice offered and spouts ridiculous crap. Total troll
> ...


He's probably in junior high school I'd wager.


----------



## NsparkyNV (Jul 29, 2015)

ElectronFlow said:


> Davethaboss said:
> 
> 
> > Lol I've seen two of these people already. Instead of giving me advice they tell me I'm a ***** and need to man up. I guess that's advice I don't know lol. I do realize that not all electricians are pricks but a couple are just like on this site.
> ...


Lol well said!


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

Maybe if he wasn't such an ugly Vulcan he could get a real job. Filthy Vulcans with their big noses and pointy ears and their fiveheads. He probably smells like cabbage too. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

macmikeman said:


> As a highly trained medical doctor, (just ask anybody at this forum, they all know) it is easy to spot borderline personality disorder. This probably is the root reason your own family considers you to be a loser who won't go anywhere. Take heart, You are not alone. There are tens of thousands of current 15-20 yr old brats watching Youtube all day long with this disorder, which can be cured incidentally by a good dose of paying rent, mortgage, grocery bills, child care costs, car payments, electrical bills, water and sewage,taxes, car insurance, health insurance, and a host of other obligations, which will take your mind off of yourself all the time. You won't have time to whine when you are finally on your own, with nobody paying your way. Then it will occur to you to listen carefully to your employer, and to hop on one leg when he instructs you to do so. Because your employer is your new daddy, kid, and he is the one paying all the above mentioned bills.


Wow it's macmikebitch coming in to save good ole Charles!
You don't even know me or where I'm from. 
I am continuing this argument because I just got a job somewhere else and I'm just screwing around with you children. 
You were part of the 1%, who are you to talk?
Clearly you have animosity because your business is probably failing and you have no way to express it.
You have been giving me a good laugh.
It makes my vacation all the more enjoyable.
Why are you so sensitive too? 
What ****** expects an 18 year old to pay bills?
I played the "parents think I'm a failure and loser card" just to see what your reaction is. I've enquired and applied to this job for a while now.
Watching you and your hopeless goons running around in circles. It's very enjoyable.
I already know I will be more successful than you. People who go on forums and talk about how successful they are, are full of crap.
Why do you infidels even exist?
You do nothing for our new generation but creating a bunch of hardass apprentices to become the same as you.
Overall question, wtf are you doing on a forum on a work day? Oh because you are doing paper work or because you are out of work.
You're such a dumbass you can't even respond with words. You respond with pictures. Your avatar is the only picture I need to look at because it makes me laugh the most.[emoji13] 
Oh you also said I'm suffering from some disorder you dug out of your kindergarten books you still use.

I'm sorry for you.
Here's a website you can check for your help.

IDGAF.com
Also.

For ******s made by ******s

******.com

You can also call your local 911 if you feel that your disorder is starting to grow. You will thank me later.

PLEASE RESPOND. 
This is so funny. 
I can practice my comebacks on older men going through their periods and mid life crises

Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

NC Plc said:


> You did sort of imply you had the ability to DOXX people and that it was really easy to do. Anyone can run a google search on people and DOXX them if they post real life information. :laughing:
> 
> Also you of all people should know that if you're streaming, even without your face in the cam, networking geeks can track you down if they want. I was using Wireshark to monitor traffic over unsecured networks and watching what websites people visit when I was in college for IT. I also had the ability to open Linux and launch a honeypot or pineapple wifi style attack. It doesn't make me a leet hacker, it makes me a nerd with basic networking know-how.
> 
> So, basically, you should just ditch the DOXXing talk and stick to your original topic. :laughing:


I'm not stupid enough to stream with tons of people watching without using either a VPN or those IP generators that run on TOR.
Also I don't know if this works or not but I think if you stream in a Virtual Box running Linux it would be very hard to hack or get hacked. Only if you share the wrong files in the Share files folder that hackers could use to get to your machine.
I'm no elite hacker but I try to learn a thing or too. I got banned from using the internet at my school cause I was practicing C++ programs on command. prompt. They thought I was trying to commit a terrorist attack or something because, I put a comment in my code stating: We about to blow up!
It then linked to a rap video that I really liked. I don't know I found it really funny and felt like sharing.
Essentially, every network as a couple of faults. Me and my bro were talking about it today about what a network can do to become completely secure, turns out there isn't much according to what my bro said.
DDoS'ing is something a 12 year old can do and I'm sure Charles doesn't even know what that is. 
Hell my butler Charles knows that.
Oh wait I don't have a butler...

Curious question, how safe is Virtual Box? 
I don't want opinions but actual facts and attempts at sabotaging a machine running in Linux while using Virtual Box.
I use Virtual Box to test literally everything...

Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

Michigan Master said:


> First off I agree that borrowing $50k for college when your current income is $0 is dumb; and you seem like a smart kid but your statement about college being “unattainable for people in your situation” is a total copout! Now you’re *not* going to attend a 4 year university, live on campus, and party like a rock star on weekends; but graduating with bachelor’s degree _IS_ achievable. Instead you’re going to work 50-60 hrs/wk while attending community college before eventually taking night/online courses at a university all while working - a lot.
> 
> Trust me, I've been there and done that; there's an old chinese proverb that says, "_the person who says it cannot be done, should not interrupt the person doing it_." Get a job that has a tuition assistance program and have your employer pay for school so you can spend your paycheck on rent, car, groceries, etc. According to the Society for Human Management, *sixty-one percent* of companies offer some type of education benefits for employees. Do some Googling, you’ll find articles listing some of these companies and what they offer, but there are many, many more out there and a lot of them will give you up to $5,250 per year for school, and some even more.
> 
> ...


IT is my next step if low voltage doesn't work out. I will check some community college courses in my area. I also think Tyco which was a job I was looking at would provide tuition assistance.

Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

NsparkyNV said:


> I think this guy is a troll and we are all feeding him. He's probably not 18 or in New Jersey. He doesn't take any advice offered and spouts ridiculous crap. Total troll


? I talk things spoken seriously, seriously. Anything else is dis-regarded.
This thread was a failure.

Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

NC Plc said:


> Well I don't doubt the guy is a kid or teenager based on the excuses he is using, successful adults don't use those. The location is most likely a lie though and he is most likely trolling.


Trolling? Ok then...
I've spoken straight with you from the start. 
So you followed the rest of the crowd too because I defended myself?

Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

meadow said:


> Ignore him, taking him for real isn't healthy. Hes just upset because he failed a licensing exam.


Ah so you switched sides too, when we discussed Mike Holt a while ago.
I'm having an argument with a guy I don't like not you.

Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

ElectronFlow said:


> I think you should become an electrician.
> You already have so many skills a good electrician has.
> 
> Starting with Davetheboss. It's good to start at the top. Saves time.
> ...


Got a job in low voltage. The good electricians I hope thrive. The rest of you that put me down, stay put down.

Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

NsparkyNV said:


> He's probably in junior high school I'd wager.


Yup I'm in kindergarten too.


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

ponyboy said:


> Maybe if he wasn't such an ugly Vulcan he could get a real job. Filthy Vulcans with their big noses and pointy ears and their fiveheads. He probably smells like cabbage too.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I'm actually much more fitter than you are based off your picture. I was taught to never stand down. Nor will I now.
Just got a job too.
This thread has failed.

Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


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## NC Plc (Mar 24, 2014)

Davethaboss said:


> Trolling? Ok then...
> I've spoken straight with you from the start.
> So you followed the rest of the crowd too because I defended myself?
> 
> Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


No, just a perception based on a few things. Life is hard, you really have to figure things out for yourself and make it work.

I'll reply to the other post shortly. Trust me, 12 year olds can easily DDOS.


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

Davethaboss said:


> I'm actually much more fitter than you are based off your picture. I was taught to never stand down. Nor will I now.
> Just got a job too.
> This thread has failed.
> 
> Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk



Yep because that's really me. Good work dumb f*ck. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

NC Plc said:


> No, just a perception based on a few things. Life is hard, you really have to figure things out for yourself and make it work.
> 
> I'll reply to the other post shortly. Trust me, 12 year olds can easily DDOS.


I have a lot of options.
I do not have much to say regarding what everyone is saying about me. It has told me that the electrical field isn't for me.

I would like to do networking, programming, and low voltage if that is a possibility. 
I want to be the first one to do it. I have ambition and not even these people on this forum will stop me from achieving it.
How come you are an electrician? I don't see why you would with this knowledge you already have. You should've went for software engineering or something.
Next question:
Do companies in your area provide on the job training for networking and electronics? 
Or is getting a degree the only plausible way? 
You might've answered this question already and I apologize for that.

Thanks for sticking around too btw.


Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

ponyboy said:


> Yep because that's really me. Good work dumb f*ck.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Your welcome.

Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


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## NC Plc (Mar 24, 2014)

Davethaboss said:


> I'm not stupid enough to stream with tons of people watching without using either a VPN or those IP generators that run on TOR.


Depending on your gear (computer) and ISP, running a VPN while streaming is not always an option. Since you like computers I will let you research the exact reasons as to why that is the case.



Davethaboss said:


> Also I don't know if this works or not but I think if you stream in a Virtual Box running Linux it would be very hard to hack or get hacked.


Linux is generally more secure than Windows, but when you say this...



Davethaboss said:


> Only if you share the wrong files in the Share files folder that hackers could use to get to your machine.


This tells me you have limited experience with sandboxing (virtual box). If you have the tool installed that allows you to pull things and put things from Linux onto the emulator you have a vulnerability that will allow a keen hacker or an intelligent (hybrid) malware to break into or out of your box.



Davethaboss said:


> I'm no elite hacker but I try to learn a thing or too.


Don't think this the wrong way, but I know. So do not go around threatening to DOXX people when eventually you will threaten the wrong guy and end up with your personal information all over Reddit, Chan, TOR, etc. There was a League of Legends streamer that was joking around with some hackers that were DDOSing Riot, and while I can't remember the details I know that they got his IP, all his personal information, prank called the cops and sent them to his apartment, and something else. 

So trust me, it's best to keep your head down and not make DOXXING jokes or threats on the net, lest you attract the attention of people that are very talented with network cracking.



Davethaboss said:


> I got banned from using the internet at my school cause I was practicing C++ programs on command.


Don't do that, you can get into legal trouble. With 4-10 lines of Python I can make a keylogger that will run silently, record all keystrokes, save them plaintext, then silently send the plaintext doc to me (if I am on the same network.) You can do that by downloading python, installing it, writing the program, launching it, then leaving and going to another computer near that one. That's one way that people get into your accounts and stuff. Example, say you get into an arguement with a network nerd at college. You sit at the same computer every day right? Everyone in college has a desk they like. Well, before class in 5 minutes he can do all of that then have it running on your computer. Once class is over, he waits for you to leave and then takes a usb drive and saves the plaintext doc to his usb with all the passwords to all the sites you accessed. 



Davethaboss said:


> They thought I was trying to commit a terrorist attack or something because, I put a comment in my code stating: We about to blow up!
> It then linked to a rap video that I really liked. I don't know I found it really funny and felt like sharing.


Here's one for you that you can do without getting caught. I DO NOT SUGGEST YOU DO THIS. Anyway, learn to write batch files and write one that will reboot the computer every time someone tries to open the main internet browser. Next, change the address of the browser icon to the batch file, having hidden the batch file deep in C:.

Of course this is assuming they do not have deep freeze, but if they do there are easy ways to crack into that. Also, if you just want to frustrate someone, make a batch file that will open infinite CMD windows and watch them get extremely upset.



Davethaboss said:


> Essentially, every network as a couple of faults. Me and my bro were talking about it today about what a network can do to become completely secure, turns out there isn't much according to what my bro said.


Your brother is correct, every network will have holes. It is extremely hard to make a secure network that can't be broken into eventually. The entire philosophy of network security is to make it harder to break into a system than the value of what is in the system. With the exception of say one time pass encryption, which isn't really easy to implement, no system is entirely unbreakable if it is connected to the internet.



Davethaboss said:


> DDoS'ing is something a 12 year old can do and I'm sure Charles doesn't even know what that is.


I misread this, you are correct. Even a 12 year old can DDOS. Those botnets are not expensive and can overrun any server.

Hell, with a program that is less than 1MB in size, you can shut down specific webpages by sending a pingflood to it. Since that is laughably easy to detect and most sites are setup to stop it, it's rarely used now last I heard.



Davethaboss said:


> Curious question, how safe is Virtual Box?


So long as you do not have the tool that allows you to pull stuff from it and put stuff on it, quite safe. That tool is a massive vulnerability that some malware will exploit. Virtual Box was what I used to reverse engineer malware.



Davethaboss said:


> I don't want opinions but actual facts and attempts at sabotaging a machine running in Linux while using Virtual Box.
> I use Virtual Box to test literally everything...


Using Virtual Box as a sandbox to text programs is basic level malware testing stuff, it's safe. It would take very powerful malware to break out of VB without that tool installed. Keyword INSTALLED, not just enabled. Installed is enough of a loophole for more advanced and elegant hybrids.


----------



## NC Plc (Mar 24, 2014)

Davethaboss said:


> I have a lot of options.
> I do not have much to say regarding what everyone is saying about me. It has told me that the electrical field isn't for me.


There are people like this in every field; electrical work is difficult work. When you come onto here whining about difficulties you have to understand you are complaining to men that had to work extremely hard to get where they are and many of them are still working extremely hard day to day.

Between college, work, and my apprenticeship I work an average of 70 hours a week and some weeks I have absolutely no tolerance for whining. 



Davethaboss said:


> I would like to do networking, programming, and low voltage if that is a possibility.


Pick one and do it. A jack of all trades is a master of none; if you want to make it in life you have to pick one thing you don't hate (that pays well and has room for growth) and master it.



Davethaboss said:


> How come you are an electrician? I don't see why you would with this knowledge you already have.


I'm an apprentice not an electrician. I enjoy PLC programming and if my college degree does not pan out, electrical work is steady and pays well. Also, my current job is how I am able to pay for college.



Davethaboss said:


> You should've went for software engineering or something.


I'm not cut out for software engineering, that is an extremely difficult job. I am not that good of a programmer and I am too old to start now to work towards it. Programming is a young mans game, you don't start programming at 30 with the goal of being a SE without being a prodigy, or having unreal dedication. JMHO



Davethaboss said:


> Do companies in your area provide on the job training for networking and electronics?


Electronics is a dying field. No one in industry does electronics repair. When a 20,000$ CPU board goes out we do not replace the blown capacitor or scope out the board, we replace it. They put a thick anti-static coating on the boards we deal with that make them impossible to repair. 

For networking, you need CERTS and a 2 year degree to get interviews. On the job training comes when you actually begin working in the field, preferably not at a help-desk position. This is what I learned while speaking with people that do that work while I was working on an ISS degree. I dropped out of that degree after 1 year.

The CERTS I am referring to are Microsoft and N+. S+ is not a bad one to have, A+ is rather useless.



Davethaboss said:


> Or is getting a degree the only plausible way?


The only electronics work I would consider would be instrumentation work, such as repairing / replacing / calibrating flow meters. I am on a first name basis with a couple people in that industry and they are quite busy, the pay is decent.


----------



## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

NC Plc said:


> Depending on your gear (computer) and ISP, running a VPN while streaming is not always an option. Since you like computers I will let you research the exact reasons as to why that is the case.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

NC Plc said:


> There are people like this in every field; electrical work is difficult work. When you come onto here whining about difficulties you have to understand you are complaining to men that had to work extremely hard to get where they are and many of them are still working extremely hard day to day.
> 
> Between college, work, and my apprenticeship I work an average of 70 hours a week and some weeks I have absolutely no tolerance for whining.
> 
> ...


I was actually considering a help desk position... I have heard success stories about people rising through the top and people noticing them and hiring them for different stuff.

A+ is useless huh? So trying to learn stuff at Codeacademy and Virtual school would be a waste? I forgot the name of other certs but there was a list and A+ was one and there a few others like RubyCERT or something like that I can't remember the exact name.
Is a two year degree in this field useless? Like an associate's in like networking, system management, etc...

My mistake was applying to my votech school for Electrical. I thought it was for me but I chose it cause 4 years ago I applied for science and engineering (the hardest course in my area to get in) but didn't get in. Partially because I didn't study the test like other kids did. I still got all A's in all my other classes but that's besides the point. There was a computers and networking 4 year course. I took the electrical course cause I saw nothing else that interested me. However, I learned these kids were taking a Cisco test in order to become one of their employees. Now I regret what I've done and how stupid I was not going in that field.

My next question is: why do you say programming is a young man's game? I know plenty of older people that program and code for living. I always looked down on it because I thought I would be working in a cubicle all day.

I don't know what are your thoughts?

I also have learned my lesson. I'm no longer pointing out any more personal or honest information in a forum ever again. Or how I feel about something. Just plain and simple and to the point. Something this thread was not.


Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


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## NC Plc (Mar 24, 2014)

Davethaboss said:


> You play league of legends! LOL I do too. It's good to know I'm not the only nerd out here. I know the streamer you were talking about. He got SWATTED but that happens to literally everyone.


I don't really have time for it these days, LoL is too much of a time suck when you're my age.

It's okay to kill time on a Sunday, but during the week I have no time for that nonsense. I play on a Spanish server so at best it improves my Spanish, but overall it's a massive waste of time. 



Davethaboss said:


> Dude I tried breaking their damned Leaverbuster system but I just couldn't do it.


You're not going to break their Leaverbuster system and get away with it without knowing the mechanics of how it works, which they will not give you. I guess you could figure it out with a number of smurfs, but that's an awful lot of wasted time for something insignificant.



Davethaboss said:


> I also have little experience with virtual box. I used it to test CheatEngine because I don't trust anything I download over the internet.
> I also thought the Shared Files folder was what you were talking about. It allows you to drop files from your machine into your virtual box. Again I have little experience yet I find the whole idea fascinating.


Shared folder and tools that allow you to drag and drop from VB to the desktop. If you want it to be secure you can't have any of that, but it's been a while so things may have changed.



Davethaboss said:


> I was always told batch files are the easiest to spot out. Never quite understood what they were from a programming standpoint.


They're not for hiding, they're crude ways to wreck someone's system. As soon as any IT person sees what happens, they will know where to look to find the batch files and remove them.



Davethaboss said:


> I thought I "broke" my laptop when I was dumb enough to open a bunch of CMD Windows. I thought maybe my compiler or some **** was working wrong.


It's a great way to flood any system. Even a high end gaming rig would be eventually overwhelmed by it due to the limitations of how CPUs process commands. Then again, I never got to test it out on a high end gaming rig, or a rig with tesla level GPU power, so I have no idea if that's actually accurate. I assume it is.



Davethaboss said:


> I broke my phone trying to run and code JavaScript programs and having them fail one after the other. It's so damn slow now and no I haven't downloaded anything stupid or used up too much space or not updated it.
> I broke another computer owned by a ****head because I wanted to test a "worm virus" and it somehow broke it. Like it wouldn't boot up then I realized it worked. That's the limited hacking time I've done seeing how much **** I've broken by being just stupid.


You should probably stop hacking then and read up on exactly how rigid (and vague, if that makes any sense) computer security laws are. You can end up in prison for a very long time doing somethings that are more or less innocent.



Davethaboss said:


> Another question: If I want to make a Windows app I heard using Visual Studio is the best method. Is this true?


I never bothered with APPs.



Davethaboss said:


> Why did you learn Python instead of C and HTML and java?
> I forgot that in my programming book I think Python is more business oriented or was that FORTRAN?
> Time to go back to the book.


It has to do with the levels of languages. The levels are as follows: Machine code - base level. 
Assembly - Second level.
C / C++ - Third level.
Python, etc - 4th level.

Knowing C is sort of worthless these days outside of electronics DIY as far as I know. You should learn other languages. It's outdated knowledge, like knowing how to code in assembly. Assembly, by the way, is actually what NES games were coded in.

Python and other languages at that level take commands you give and translate them into lower languages for the machine. It's easier to code in high level languages, and requires less time, than trying to code in C or C++, etc.

I may have missed a level, it's been quite a while since I have spoken about this stuff.



Davethaboss said:


> Also what online material that's free can I use to help me program better and neater? I do it as a hobby.


You could easily google this but... 

StackOverflow: Programming know-how. There is more information there than you can handle or will need.
CodeAcadamey: Learn languages other than C.
HackThisSite: Learn how to actually hack, legally.
https://ctf365.com/:Reinforce what you learn on HtS
Backtrack: Learn what this tool package is and spend the next 2 years mastering it.




Davethaboss said:


> Last question: Do you actually think the Leaverbuster is breakable. I looked through everything. The launcher's files and I found nothing of use. The issue is server side but how can I speed up a timer server side? You could but you would end up getting caught.


If you really want to learn computer and network security you have to stop playing league and stop trying to break the LB system and instead study the links I provided above.


----------



## NC Plc (Mar 24, 2014)

Davethaboss said:


> A+ is useless huh?


Mostly. It's a base level cert for breaking into IT, it's not generally worth keeping current once you are in IT. Years ago A+ was a one time test that was a permanent cert, these days it requires renewal.




Davethaboss said:


> So trying to learn stuff at Codeacademy and Virtual school would be a waste?


I never said that. A+ is just a LLOOTT of studying for something that is only to break into IT. It's good to have to break into IT, worthless once you are in IT. Generally speaking of course.



Davethaboss said:


> I forgot the name of other certs but there was a list and A+ was one and there a few others like RubyCERT or something like that I can't remember the exact name.
> Is a two year degree in this field useless? Like an associate's in like networking, system management, etc...


A degree with certs is far better than no degree with certs.



Davethaboss said:


> My mistake was applying to my votech school for Electrical. I thought it was for me but I chose it cause 4 years ago I applied for science and engineering (the hardest course in my area to get in) but didn't get in. Partially because I didn't study the test like other kids did.


Just a heads up, in IT the studying never stops, like any competitive field.



Davethaboss said:


> However, I learned these kids were taking a Cisco test in order to become one of their employees. Now I regret what I've done and how stupid I was not going in that field.


You're young, so chill out. I just wish I had known what I know now when I was 18. :laughing:



Davethaboss said:


> My next question is: why do you say programming is a young man's game? I know plenty of older people that program and code for living. I always looked down on it because I thought I would be working in a cubicle all day.


Sitting in a cubicle all day programming beats digging trenches for electrical IMO.


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

NC Plc said:


> I don't really have time for it these days, LoL is too much of a time suck when you're my age.
> 
> It's okay to kill time on a Sunday, but during the week I have no time for that nonsense. I play on a Spanish server so at best it improves my Spanish, but overall it's a massive waste of time.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the links!
I actually use stack overflow a lot nowadays. It provides me reasons why my programs never work because I missed one line. Literally one line.
Also I do not play league every day like you think, I play only on weekends plus I'm on vacation right now so I haven't touched it for weeks. I also asked for the leaverbuster hack because I was thinking if I found a way to do it I could possibly sell it or something.

Machine code from what I read in my book is impossible for humans to understand correct? 
Assembly code is what is used to write programming languages correct?
PLANKůL is assembly code correct? It was the first programming language created.

I have been coming up with app ideas for awhile now and just wanted to let you know Microsoft supposedly wants to increase the number of apps in its play store for the Windows store, considering it is quite small in size. They are willing to pay massive money if you manage to get one rolling. 
This is the reason I've been working on making an app. It's just so hard to do by yourself. My idea is new and no one has done it yet.

Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


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## NC Plc (Mar 24, 2014)

Anyway man it's been fun talking about computer geekery but I have to crash, good luck with your stuff.


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

NC Plc said:


> Mostly. It's a base level cert for breaking into IT, it's not generally worth keeping current once you are in IT. Years ago A+ was a one time test that was a permanent cert, these days it requires renewal.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was actually thinking about studying for it and then taking the test... Guess it's quite different. 
So I guess in order to REALLY break into IT you need a degree. There's no two ways around it...
I actually find anything about computers and electronics fascinating.
Lol, is it even possible to know what you know at 18?
I guess I agree with you. Working in a cubicle all day typing beats trenches I suppose.

My last question: you have any advice on what topics YOU NEED it look at when programming or networking? Like SERIOUSLY need to know because it's that important.

Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

NC Plc said:


> Anyway man it's been fun talking about computer geekery but I have to crash, good luck with your stuff.


Alright man I apologize for the boring stuff. Have a good night.

Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


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## NsparkyNV (Jul 29, 2015)

Couple questions. 
1) Why to you put down smaller companies 'mom and pop shops'? These places can teach you a lot and give you hours you desperately need to become an actual electrician. Real experience that would be valuable to your future. 
2) Why do you think low voltage is going to be somehow better? People are people in whatever field of work you are in. It's delusional to think otherwise. 

You say you have been honest and upfront in what you have said yet you admit to lying about your situation just to get a response out of people? You mock real, lifelong electricians who tried to give you real world advice based on experience and act like a child when called on your bull****. You are either a troll or the most incredibly dumb kid I've ever encountered on a forum of any kind.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

macmikeman said:


> Reply to the OP - Yes , you should move away from the trade. We don't want your ***** ass around. Have a nice day.


Bump


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Davethaboss said:


> Ah so you switched sides too, when we discussed Mike Holt a while ago.
> I'm having an argument with a guy I don't like not you.
> 
> Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk



I think Mike Holt material is simply the best for learning the NEC, however he also has a forum where MTW lost it over a remark I made regarding a You Tube video.


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## pete87 (Oct 22, 2012)

Davethaboss said:


> Alright man I apologize for the boring stuff. Have a good night.
> 
> Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk





You are in New Jersey ? Why not just chase some Jersey Girls ?

That is what I would do .




Pete


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

Cletusthaboss said:


> This thread was a failure.
> 
> Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


Truer words were never spoken......


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Its not over until the fat lady sings :laughing::thumbsup:


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

NsparkyNV said:


> Couple questions.
> 1) Why to you put down smaller companies 'mom and pop shops'? These places can teach you a lot and give you hours you desperately need to become an actual electrician. Real experience that would be valuable to your future.
> 2) Why do you think low voltage is going to be somehow better? People are people in whatever field of work you are in. It's delusional to think otherwise.
> 
> You say you have been honest and upfront in what you have said yet you admit to lying about your situation just to get a response out of people? You mock real, lifelong electricians who tried to give you real world advice based on experience and act like a child when called on your bull****. You are either a troll or the most incredibly dumb kid I've ever encountered on a forum of any kind.


Not ever going back to electrical that has been made clearly obvious.
Mom and pop shops are called that because normally they don't know how to market well and because they make little money as it is so, they need to cut ends.
They teach you THEIR advice.
Real life advice is not "Get the **** out of this trade."
Low voltage is a lot better because it has more people like myself and less of the normal construction person. 
My buddy has also done a lot of programming in this field and I really enjoy that.
As I was saying with NC PLC I can use it as a way of monetary income to hopefully use it one day when there is a need for IT guys.
For now I'm just going to visit those websites he listed.
I'm not delusional. People are people in every field but as the field changes so do their attitudes.



Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

pete87 said:


> You are in New Jersey ? Why not just chase some Jersey Girls ?
> 
> That is what I would do .
> 
> ...


Disregarded.

Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

meadow said:


> I think Mike Holt material is simply the best for learning the NEC, however he also has a forum where MTW lost it over a remark I made regarding a You Tube video.


Yea I'm going to ditch Mike Holt now and focus on some websites to better up my coding and programming skills.
I also need work in the networking department.
This forum has made it obvious electrical is not for me.

Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Hooray


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

macmikeman said:


> Hooray


Disregarded.

Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Davethaboss said:


> Disregarded.
> 
> Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


Much like I have disregarded all you have posted here.


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

macmikeman said:


> Much like I have disregarded all you have posted here.


Thank you.
Do you only come here to start arguments?

Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

One thing you have been useful for though is revealing members who are attracted to teenage men. Confirmed my suspicions about a half dozen or so of the clowns. So many of them have carried on with you at great length.

Time for you to beat it, you don't like electrical work.


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

macmikeman said:


> One thing you have been useful for though is revealing members who are attracted to teenage men. Confirmed my suspicions about a half dozen or so of the clowns. So many of them have carried on with you at great length.
> 
> Time for you to beat it, you don't like electrical work.


I suppose so.
Well done in treating another human being as a means of use. Put yourself in that classification.
I like electrical work, I don't like the people or force.

Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


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## Michigan Master (Feb 25, 2013)

Davethaboss said:


> This forum has made it obvious electrical is not for me.


Glad we were able to help you out. 

Seriously though, I think you'll better off in an IT or networking type position; also until you find your ideal job, quit freeloading off your parents and just work any job that offers tuition assistance. 

The military is another good way to get college paid for and might also teach you some other things. :whistling2:
.


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

Michigan Master said:


> Glad we were able to help you out.
> 
> Seriously though, I think you'll better off in an IT or networking type position; also until you find your ideal job, quit freeloading off your parents and just work any job that offers tuition assistance.
> 
> ...


Yup. I guess the negative responses I got made me want to leave even more.
I just feel bad for all those like me that made the same mistake as I did.

I actually do a lot of reading on stuff that I like. As I was telling NC PLC I am working on a game mod and my "app" is on hiatus because they are extremely difficult to finish by yourself.
I'm not really free loading, I'm actually learning a lot by teaching myself.

I looked at Tyco and they provide tuition assistance I THINK. So if I can get assistance to go to college for networking and computers my life would be complete.
As it stands I'm going to work for a low voltage company that is willing to train me. (I don't know how hard low voltage is?) 
I looked at the website listed. Not many of those positions I really liked or would want to progress in.

Military? Nooo. 
Lol. The reason I argued with so many people is when they try to make a witty remark. Or make a threat or just overall treat you inferior. I will stand for myself.
Regardless if you are old or young, I had to take all the bullcrap that was thrown at me when I working for my old boss now I don't have to.
I'm kind of sorry you had to see all of that.
It all escalated when some guy from my state decided to make all these claims against me.
Regardless, I have ambition. Stubborn ambition. I will be successful. Also more successful than all the negativity here.
Thanks for the advice boss.




Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


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## NC Plc (Mar 24, 2014)

macmikeman said:


> One thing you have been useful for though is revealing members who are attracted to teenage men. Confirmed my suspicions about a half dozen or so of the clowns. So many of them have carried on with you at great length.
> 
> Time for you to beat it, you don't like electrical work.


Your paranoia knows no bounds eh?


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## pete87 (Oct 22, 2012)

Davethaboss said:


> Not ever going back to electrical that has been made clearly obvious.
> Mom and pop shops are called that because normally they don't know how to market well and because they make little money as it is so, they need to cut ends.
> They teach you THEIR advice.
> Real life advice is not "Get the **** out of this trade."
> ...




Davethaboss ... Ma & Pa Electrical in 1980's was worth $365k a year minimal for a EC License ...

Low Voltage was all the same to a EC in the old days ... We had another name for it ... The " Tit Work " ...

Don't disregard NJ Girls ... some of the best Fillies in this country .





Pete


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Davethaboss said:


> Yea I'm going to ditch Mike Holt now and focus on some websites to better up my coding and programming skills.
> I also need work in the networking department.
> This forum has made it obvious electrical is not for me.
> 
> Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk



This thread has made it obvious why this trade has been going down hill. :no: On the plus side once licensing is abolished by hard working activist all you will need is a home depot card.


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## pete87 (Oct 22, 2012)

meadow said:


> Its not over until the fat lady sings :laughing::thumbsup:






Meadow ... The Fat Lady has Sung !





Pete


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

pete87 said:


> Meadow ... The Fat Lady has Sung !
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Where? Oh....:laughing::jester:


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

NC Plc said:


> Your paranoia knows no bounds eh?


well beyond that....

~CS~


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

Davethaboss said:


> Not ever going back to electrical that has been made clearly obvious.
> Mom and pop shops are called that because normally they don't know how to market well and because they make little money as it is so, they need to cut ends.
> They teach you THEIR advice.
> Real life advice is not "Get the **** out of this trade."
> ...



You're clueless. A lot of us "mom and pop" shops choose to be that way. Some of us decide it's not worth the stress to run a big operation. I'd suggest you pursue a career installing thermostats. It's becoming clearer all the time why you whimped out after such a short time.






Davethaboss said:


> Yea I'm going to ditch Mike Holt now and focus on some websites to better up my coding and programming skills.
> I also need work in the networking department.
> This forum has made it obvious electrical is not for me.
> 
> Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk



What's Mike going to do now that you've "ditched" him? Cry?






Davethaboss said:


> Yup. I guess the negative responses I got made me want to leave even more.
> I just feel bad for all those like me that made the same mistake as I did.
> 
> I actually do a lot of reading on stuff that I like. As I was telling NC PLC I am working on a game mod and my "app" is on hiatus because they are extremely difficult to finish by yourself.
> ...


David K. Mooney aka "The Boss" will you please go now?


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Easily one of the best troll threads on this forum and possibly ever.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

MTW said:


> Easily one of the best troll threads on this forum and possibly ever.



x2. :laughing:


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## NC Plc (Mar 24, 2014)

meadow said:


> This thread has made it obvious why this trade has been going down hill. :no: On the plus side once licensing is abolished by hard working activist all you will need is a home depot card.


Well, it is an example as to why electrical work is my fall back and my college degree is my main focus. Electrical work will pay for my college in the short term and I want my license, but I don't intend to make a career out of it past my 30s. :whistling2:

The old men that post on here can call it wussing out in my case as well if they wish, I call it valuing my time more than what most electrical work pays. One the exceptions being when you own your own successful business, which I will never do.


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

wendon said:


> You're clueless. A lot of us "mom and pop" shops choose to be that way. Some of us decide it's not worth the stress to run a big operation. I'd suggest you pursue a career installing thermostats. It's becoming clearer all the time why you whimped out after such a short time.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Er I have been gone and was hoping this thread would die but you aren't letting that happen.
Still don't understand the animosity.
I'm going to to pursue networking and programming like I was discussing with NC PLC.
Errr. I just said I'm not going to watch Mike Holt anymore. That's literally all I said lol.
Don't know who David. K. Mooney is.
What did you just Google that or something?
I never wimped out. I'm just not designed for this trade.
I have one last request which is to let this thread die. I don't feel like arguing anymore. I don't see why you would either.
I wanted last word on this thread and to end with me choosing my path and thanking those that helped me along the way. I feel like it is the best ending.

Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

meadow said:


> x2. :laughing:


At least you and MTW are friends...

Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

NC Plc said:


> Well, it is an example as to why electrical work is my fall back and my college degree is my main focus. Electrical work will pay for my college in the short term and I want my license, but I don't intend to make a career out of it past my 30s. :whistling2:



Electrical work pays period. College is hit or miss, more often miss. Every public school teacher and professor of academia has college on a pedestal. Yet when miss Johnson cant make her toast she calls us to reset her GFCI for $125 while shes thinking a miracle was pulled off. Then goes back to spouting her government sponsored rhetoric on impressionable minds.


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

NC Plc said:


> Well, it is an example as to why electrical work is my fall back and my college degree is my main focus. Electrical work will pay for my college in the short term and I want my license, but I don't intend to make a career out of it past my 30s. :whistling2:


OH I forgot to ask you!
Do any companies in your area provide you with tuition assistance?
My bros. Company provides reimbursement but he chose not to go to college.

Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

as an aside

i'm amazed that anyone can type so well on a ph keyboard 

~CS~


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> as an aside
> 
> i'm amazed that anyone can type so well on a ph keyboard
> 
> ~CS~



:whistling2::lol:

Majority of these posts are from a desktop/lap top keyboard.


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## NC Plc (Mar 24, 2014)

meadow said:


> Electrical work pays period. College is hit or miss, more often miss. Every public school teacher and professor of academia has college on a pedestal. Yet when miss Johnson cant make her toast she calls us to reset her GFCI for $125 while shes thinking a miracle was pulled off. Then goes back to spouting her government sponsored rhetoric on impressionable minds.


You're right, I often ask people at my college these questions:

1) Do you know the average salary for the position you wish to obtain once you have your college degree?
2) Do you know the job outlook and overall projected growth percentage for the field you wish to enter?
3) Do you understand what is required to gain employment in the field you wish to go into?
4) Is ageism an issue in the field your degree is most applicable? A big offender here is IT.
5) Are you actively seeking work experience while you are getting your degree so that you can land a job quicker?

So far no one has been able to answer my questions. This makes me look down on college and say it's not for everyone. A lot of degrees are a scam and are setting you up for failure. The college system as a whole is not producing the work/talent that the current job market is seeking. I've researched 4 career fields that were interesting to me and all 4 had major issues that no one at the college would talk about. That is why my degree is now in mathematics and my MS will most likely be in statistics. This is assuming I get a MS.

I could rant for hours about the issues I have seen in the college system. ALSO, I have spoken with professors that have told me that we are graduating students for fields they are not qualified or able to perform in. I know that's not how it is at all colleges, but at the colleges that the professors I spoke with teach at they help to nudge struggling students along to fluff up the graduation rate.

People undervalue 2 year degrees and overvalue 4 year degrees. With a 2 year degree in radiology tech you can make $20 an hour starting, that is what my cousin makes taking x-rays and she just graduated last year. I live with two college graduates with 4 year degrees from a nice college that currently work at a grocery store and a hotel.

So tl;dr college, for many, is a complete waste of time and money.



Davethaboss said:


> OH I forgot to ask you!
> Do any companies in your area provide you with tuition assistance?
> My bros. Company provides reimbursement but he chose not to go to college.
> 
> Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


Of course. As it was already said in this thread by others, many companies offer tuition assistance of some kind.


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

NC Plc said:


> You're right, I often ask people at my college these questions:
> 
> 1) Do you know the average salary for the position you wish to obtain once you have your college degree?
> 2) Do you know the job outlook and overall projected growth percentage for the field you wish to enter?
> ...


They don't teach them practical experience, practical thinking or seeing past the academics in front of them. Institutionalizing people to a system steers them further and further from reality. 






> This makes me look down on college and say it's not for everyone. A lot of degrees are a scam and are setting you up for failure. The college system as a whole is not producing the work/talent that the current job market is seeking. I've researched 4 career fields that were interesting to me and all 4 had major issues that no one at the college would talk about. That is why my degree is now in mathematics and my MS will most likely be in statistics. This is assuming I get a MS.


Id go on a limb and say colleges fail most people. Part of it is public schools where colleges keep having to dumb down the curriculum for incoming students, the other is about profit. Colleges never tell you whats wrong. 






> I could rant for hours about the issues I have seen in the college system. *ALSO, I have spoken with professors that have told me that we are graduating students for fields they are not qualified or able to perform in.* I know that's not how it is at all colleges, but at the colleges that the professors I spoke with teach at they help to nudge struggling students along to fluff up the graduation rate.



Thats a given. Students are getting weaker coming in, and no college wants to look like a failure. 








> People undervalue 2 year degrees and overvalue 4 year degrees. With a 2 year degree in radiology tech you can make $20 an hour starting, that is what my cousin makes taking x-rays and she just graduated last year. I live with two college graduates with 4 year degrees from a nice college that currently work at a grocery store and a hotel.
> 
> So tl;dr college, for many, is a complete waste of time and money.


I keep seeing everyone going into the same high paying field. My honest opinion the vast lot of people are severally mislead starting early on. 





> Of course. As it was already said in this thread by others, many companies offer tuition assistance of some kind.


I think most education should go that route. The idea for learning from people in a boxed classroom is incredibly dated.


----------



## NC Plc (Mar 24, 2014)

meadow said:


> They don't teach them practical experience, practical thinking or seeing past the academics in front of them. Institutionalizing people to a system steers them further and further from reality.


I agree. A problem with the American style of school and college in general for the most part is that it is far too general. In other more successful countries I have been told that education is more specialized. The old idea behind college was that you obtained a degree in something and then you would be picked up by an employer that would train you to do whatever it is you wish to do. That just is not the case these days, most if not all employers worth working for require real life experience before they will hire you. The degree and certifications get you an interview, the real world experience gets you the job. So in that respect college is a complete failure and totally outdated.



meadow said:


> Id go on a limb and say colleges fail most people. Part of it is public schools where colleges keep having to dumb down the curriculum for incoming students, the other is about profit. Colleges never tell you whats wrong.


It's not just the fault of the colleges. Everyone is told college is the gateway to wealth when in reality that's not the case anymore. It's an outdated idea that any college degree will lead to a wonderful career.

These days you must research your degree, the field you wish to enter, and compare the risk vs reward of the cost of your degree vs earning potential and employment options. What good is a $70,000 engineering degree if your first job pays $40,000 and it takes you 6 months to a year to get. Then you find out that due to H1B's you will not make that 60-100k you expected without a decade or two of experience, meaning you will be paying off that $70,000+ debt while making only $40,000. That's on top of rent, food, car payment, etc.



meadow said:


> I keep seeing everyone going into the same high paying field. My honest opinion the vast lot of people are severally mislead starting early on.


Here's an example, any time I bring up ageism in IT to people in college for IT they always mention "I know _____ who is 45 and is making ______ programming for ______" or some such nonsense. They fail to realize that I've researched many areas of IT extensively since I was studying network security and from what I gathered ageism is a massive problem in IT. At around 35-40 you're basically an antique in IT. I even met a brilliant network engineer that was applying at a hospital for a position that would pay him around 45k a year, simply because of his age. Let me clarify, the hospital was not paying that much because he was old. He was having issues finding employment for what he is qualified to do because of his age. IT isn't the glorious gateway to wealth that many like to suggest. Sure, plenty of people make it, but I've seen too many that did not make it because they didn't keep updating their knowledge base.



meadow said:


> I think most education should go that route. The idea for learning from people in a boxed classroom is incredibly dated.


I think people should work for 5 to 10 years and get a feel for the real world before going to college. Also, high schools should teach teenagers how to research various job fields to see what they are really getting themselves into. It would allow people to test out the field they wish to work in and help them to realize if that's what they really want to do.


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Yanno i am paying my kids through school fellas:whistling2:

i'm gonna cry myself to sleep with all this college bashing.....

~CS~


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## NC Plc (Mar 24, 2014)

chicken steve said:


> Yanno i am paying my kids through school fellas:whistling2:
> 
> i'm gonna cry myself to sleep with all this college bashing.....
> 
> ~CS~


Well, hopefully they're getting degrees that are worth having. :laughing:

For example not art history, sociology, or liberal arts. :whistling2:


----------



## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

NC Plc said:


> You're right, I often ask people at my college these questions:
> 
> 1) Do you know the average salary for the position you wish to obtain once you have your college degree?
> 2) Do you know the job outlook and overall projected growth percentage for the field you wish to enter?
> ...


I mean you personally aside from the classes you are taking (the PLC programming one) did your company help pay for the previous 4 degrees you went for? I mean help not pay entirely.
What were those degrees too btw, that you stopped going for?

I also heard 2 year degrees in the tech field don't mean Jack not even if you're a prodigy supposedly.

My last curious question that we haven't mentioned yet. 
Aside from the first job you mentioned about in IT where your salary got slashed.
What exactly were you doing and did you try to pursue another one after?

Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

NC Plc said:


> I agree. A problem with the American style of school and college in general for the most part is that it is far too general. In other more successful countries I have been told that education is more specialized. The old idea behind college was that you obtained a degree in something and then you would be picked up by an employer that would train you to do whatever it is you wish to do. That just is not the case these days, most if not all employers worth working for require real life experience before they will hire you. The degree and certifications get you an interview, the real world experience gets you the job. So in that respect college is a complete failure and totally outdated.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Based off the experience of the network engineer that went to apply for the job, isn't that considered discrimination when they lower the pay based off age?

I always looked at IT as always having job security as there always will be a need for it.
For example with all the cyber security issues that have been happening, regular system maintenance, developing new and faster software...

Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


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## NC Plc (Mar 24, 2014)

Davethaboss said:


> I mean you personally aside from the classes you are taking (the PLC programming one) did your company help pay for the previous 4 degrees you went for? I mean help not pay entirely.
> What were those degrees too btw, that you stopped going for?


No, they did not pay for the degrees I tried for and quit, my employer only pays for college classes and degrees that benefit the company as a whole.

They paid for EET, they did not pay for culinary or network security.



Davethaboss said:


> I also heard 2 year degrees in the tech field don't mean Jack not even if you're a prodigy supposedly.


Your degree and your certs get you in the door for an interview, your abilities and experience gets you the job. A CS degree doesn't mean anything if you don't understand programming architectures.

Also, come certs can get you a job simply because they require experience to get. For example CISSP (I think that is the spelling) is considered a powerhouse cert while A+, N+, and S+ are entry level certs that will only get you the interview.



Davethaboss said:


> My last curious question that we haven't mentioned yet.
> Aside from the first job you mentioned about in IT where your salary got slashed.
> What exactly were you doing and did you try to pursue another one after?


Don't misunderstand, I didn't work in IT. I researched the field and interviewed working professionals extensively. My knowledge about IT comes from that research, those interviews, and professors I spoke with. I was a straight A student in that year so I was buddy-buddy with many of the professors.

A striking theme in IT is ageism and while it does not affect everyone, at my age it is too late to go into IT without a massive uphill battle ahead of me. 

With electrical ageism isn't really a factor, it's all about your ability to do the work in my experiences. Also, electrical pays enough for me to pay for a 4 year college degree and graduate with no debt.


----------



## NC Plc (Mar 24, 2014)

Davethaboss said:


> Based off the experience of the network engineer that went to apply for the job, isn't that considered discrimination when they lower the pay based off age?
> 
> I always looked at IT as always having job security as there always will be a need for it.
> For example with all the cyber security issues that have been happening, regular system maintenance, developing new and faster software...
> ...


Yes age discrimination is illegal, but that does not stop it from being a common theme in IT from what I have learned.

Cyber security is a strong field with a lot of growth, but the best thing you can do once you are in that field is get your CISSP and then start training for PEN testing as soon as possible. Penetration testing is where very good money is, if you are talented at it.

That's what I gathered from my research, it's not rock solid or based on personal experience.


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

NC Plc said:


> I agree. A problem with the American style of school and college in general for the most part is that it is far too general. In other more successful countries I have been told that education is more specialized. The old idea behind college was that you obtained a degree in something and then you would be picked up by an employer that would train you to do whatever it is you wish to do. That just is not the case these days, most if not all employers worth working for require real life experience before they will hire you. The degree and certifications get you an interview, the real world experience gets you the job. So in that respect college is a complete failure and totally outdated.




In other countries schools drill math and science. They teach conduct and they teach appropriate behavior. Students who are gifted or excel in a particular areas have their gifts honored. US schools are polar opposites.


Schools drill and teach concepts rather then reality in hopes those skills will still be applicable 20 years down the road. Schools wasted time in the 90s teaching cursive only to have computers take over. Wasted time. The conformist attitudes may have produced obedient work place individuals decades ago, but today that doesn't work where out of the box thinking is need across a growing number of jobs. 








> It's not just the fault of the colleges. Everyone is told college is the gateway to wealth when in reality that's not the case anymore. It's an outdated idea that any college degree will lead to a wonderful career.


Public schools brainwash. They produce a type of thinking and character those who run the system believe to be desirable. Schools treat people two ways: do good, get honors and you will go to college. Do poorly, miss college and become a failure. That mentality destroys everyone including the nation. 






> These days you must research your degree, the field you wish to enter, and compare the risk vs reward of the cost of your degree vs earning potential and employment options. What good is a $70,000 engineering degree if your first job pays $40,000 and it takes you 6 months to a year to get. Then you find out that due to H1B's you will not make that 60-100k you expected without a decade or two of experience, meaning you will be paying off that $70,000+ debt while making only $40,000. That's on top of rent, food, car payment, etc.



Other countries make it easy: college is free. The idea that you can attach money to education, knowledge or skills is the greatest lie, deception and fraud of the millennium. This is a major subject all on its own. Some of the greatest discoveries of our time took place from free knowledge. You need to invest in people before they will give back, saying otherwise is putting the cart before the horse. 





> Here's an example, any time I bring up ageism in IT to people in college for IT they always mention "I know _____ who is 45 and is making ______ programming for ______" or some such nonsense. They fail to realize that I've researched many areas of IT extensively since I was studying network security and from what I gathered ageism is a massive problem in IT. At around 35-40 you're basically an antique in IT. I even met a brilliant network engineer that was applying at a hospital for a position that would pay him around 45k a year, simply because of his age. IT isn't the glorious gateway to wealth that many like to suggest. Sure, plenty of people make it, but I've seen too many that did not make it because they didn't keep updating their knowledge base.


Perfect example. 




> I think people should work for 5 to 10 years and get a feel for the real world before going to college. Also, high schools should teach teenagers how to research various job fields to see what they are really getting themselves into. It would allow people to test out the field they wish to work in and help them to realize if that's what they really want to do.



I think the government should pull out of education all together. Learning is much like sex, its personal. Our entire notion of education need to be over hauled. This man said it best:


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

NC Plc said:


> Yes age discrimination is illegal, but that does not stop it from being a common theme in IT from what I have learned.
> 
> Cyber security is a strong field with a lot of growth, but the best thing you can do once you are in that field is get your CISSP and then start training for PEN testing as soon as possible. Penetration testing is where very good money is, if you are talented at it.
> 
> That's what I gathered from my research, it's not rock solid or based on personal experience.



It should be in public schools. Kids beyond their age gap rarely get a chance to excel ahead.


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## NC Plc (Mar 24, 2014)

meadow said:


> In other countries schools drill math and science. They teach conduct and they teach appropriate behavior. Students who are gifted or excel in a particular areas have their gifts honored. US schools are polar opposites.


You can't allow the slowest members of the herd to be made to feel inferior. It's best to slow down the brightest so that the slowest are not left behind. No child left behind. 




meadow said:


> Schools drill and teach concepts rather then reality in hopes those skills will still be applicable 20 years down the road. Schools wasted time in the 90s teaching cursive only to have computers take over. Wasted time. The conformist attitudes may have produced obedient work place individuals decades ago, but today that doesn't work where out of the box thinking is need across a growing number of jobs.





meadow said:


> Public schools brainwash. They produce a type of thinking and character those who run the system believe to be desirable. Schools treat people two ways: do good, get honors and you will go to college. Do poorly, miss college and become a failure. That mentality destroys everyone including the nation.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xe6nLVXEC0



meadow said:


> Other countries make it easy: college is free. The idea that you can attach money to education, knowledge or skills is the greatest lie, deception and fraud of the millennium. This is a major subject all on its own. Some of the greatest discoveries of our time took place from free knowledge. You need to invest in people before they will give back, saying otherwise is putting the cart before the horse.


Yep. We are producing a generation of uneducated adults and it's not the fault of adults. College degrees are a luxury now given their staggering price and the fact that kids from families that are not wealthy have to work while going to college. That makes many degrees unobtainable.



meadow said:


> I think the government should pull out of education all together. Learning is much like sex, its personal. Our entire notion of education need to be over hauled. This man said it best:


Government needs to make college free or place a cap on the exponential growth of the cost of tuition. Otherwise yes they need to back off.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

MTW said:


> Easily one of the best troll threads on this forum and possibly ever.


Naw, not even close. Red Liz, 007, Miller, now they could troll properly.

Yes as a matter of fact I do know liz and 007 are the same person ok?

This guy is not even close, although he does have a new bff to play video games with.


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

NC Plc said:


> Yes age discrimination is illegal, but that does not stop it from being a common theme in IT from what I have learned.
> 
> Cyber security is a strong field with a lot of growth, but the best thing you can do once you are in that field is get your CISSP and then start training for PEN testing as soon as possible. Penetration testing is where very good money is, if you are talented at it.
> 
> That's what I gathered from my research, it's not rock solid or based on personal experience.


I have matter of fact heard of penetration testing. You need to REALLY study and understand everything behind it. We are talking about the penetration 

Now say I get those two certifications you just mentioned. Based off what I researched you either
A. Work at a help desk and expect to go up the food chain.
B. Do menial code tasks for the lead programmer. (some kids I think did this at Valve, lucky bastards.)
C. Get even more degrees to pile on yourself.
D. Find a mentor.
E. Be the next Bill Gates.
Z. Other...

Online there are MULTIPLE mixed reviews on what's most wanted in the I.T. industry.
What do you think with your experience is the highest growing trend AND topic in I.T.
Also ONLY in IT do online degrees and actual associate's degrees at the college are they extremely different? 

Keep in mind that you are not just speaking. I have to rummage through all these pages taking notes down on stuff you've said.
For example, the links and terms.

Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


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## ElectronFlow (Dec 21, 2014)

Davethaboss said:


> I'm not stupid enough to stream with tons of people watching without using either a VPN or those IP generators that run on TOR.


Well, that settles that, folks. he's \33t as he can be. 
(that is cool in uberleetspeak, for the rest of us lamerz.)

He's gonna use a VPN and a TOR. wh00t. WHOA, shouts out to all the 
other k3wl ppl.

Here was a guy with major r00t access, and how it turned out for him:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silk_Road_(marketplace)#Arrest_and_trial_of_Ross_William_Ulbricht

He used VPN and TOR too....
And when the silk road 2.0 came up, the owner of that was l33t as well.

"On 6 November 2014, authorities with the Federal Bureau of Investigation, Europol, and Eurojust announced the arrest of Blake Benthall, allegedly the owner and operator of Silk Road 2.0 under the pseudonym "Defcon", the previous day in San Francisco as part of Operation Onymous"

You see, Dave, there are people on this forum, who, while being
knuckle dragging electricians, not even worthy of your contempt,
are smarter than you are, with a lot more real life experience.
Some of them have programming experience that dates back to
writing control code in RLL and ASM.

Some of them have network analysis capabilities that they don't put on
resume's because of the statute of limitations. I've been using computers
since paper tape, and pin readers, and I have personally met some almost
unbelievably talented geeks over the years. 

Here is a clue. NONE of them talk about what they can, or can't do.
Try for a helpdesk job. I sense a future in that for you. You like to
tell people in 12,000 words or more something they can find in a 
Google search.

Good fortune to you.


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

ElectronFlow said:


> Well, that settles that, folks. he's \33t as he can be.
> (that is cool in uberleetspeak, for the rest of us lamerz.)
> 
> He's gonna use a VPN and a TOR. wh00t. WHOA, shouts out to all the
> ...


Don't understand why you are mad.
Never underestimated your abilities in computers and networking.
I said that statement to Charlie, who was extremely angry with me and was interrogating me.
Never stated I knew more than you.
I never provided a solution to anything.
Charlie said I was an idiot that did nothing all day, I just countered him.
I was having a conversation that I should've made private, with NC PLC.
He provided with information needed for the IT field and his experiences. 
I even told him I have a lot to learn.


Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

macmikeman said:


> Naw, not even close. Red Liz, 007, Miller, now they could troll properly.
> 
> Yes as a matter of fact I do know liz and 007 are the same person ok?
> 
> This guy is not even close, although he does have a new bff to play video games with.


Can I have a conversation without any interruptions please?
Don't worry this thread will die soon.

Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

NC Plc said:


> You can't allow the slowest members of the herd to be made to feel inferior. It's best to slow down the brightest so that the slowest are not left behind. No child left behind.


The smart kids end up feeling like the dumb ones, the average ones end up with over confidence. 


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xe6nLVXEC0





> Yep. We are producing a generation of uneducated adults and it's not the fault of adults. College degrees are a luxury now given their staggering price and the fact that kids from families that are not wealthy have to work while going to college. That makes many degrees unobtainable.


Its the fault of the parents that they don't demand to take back the school system. 

Currently our systems works like this: If you have money you get a degree, if you dont its what ever happens. The line between the rich and the poor grows despite the fact potential can be found in all economics. 







> Government needs to make college free or place a cap on the exponential growth of the cost of tuition. Otherwise yes they need to back off.


I agree 100%. The price of an education is small compared to a lifetime of work with economic stability.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

NC Plc said:


> Yep. We are producing a generation of uneducated sissies and it's not the fault of parents. College degrees are a luxury now given their staggering price and the fact that kids from families that are not wealthy have to work while going to college. That makes many degrees unobtainable.
> 
> 
> 
> Government needs to make college free or place a cap on the exponential growth of the cost of tuition. Otherwise yes they need to back off.


So who's going to pay for it? We're also producing a generation of lazy people that are taught from young on up that they're entitled to a free ride. How is the government going to provide a "free" education? The government is broke. What you might as well say is, "Those of us uneducated folks who have had to work for everything we've got, should work even harder so we can provide a free ride for those that don't enjoy working. Nothing's free. Maybe you could talk the teacher's union into donating their time?


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

Davethaboss said:


> I even told him I have a lot to learn.
> 
> 
> Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


That was a huge concession! What's a little amusing is how some youngsters whine about how bad they have it, and yet they know so much. The truth is, their knowledge doesn't amount to a wire nut (marette) in the pouch of one of the experienced guys on here. You think you have it bad? You haven't seen nothing. Most of us, when we were your age, didn't have the luxury of being able to quit our job a live in mom's basement. We either had to keep working in spite of the mean boss, or we had to have another job lined up BEFORE we quit. Now go back to work.


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## Aurora Ventures (Aug 12, 2015)

I love how most of the posters here or electricians that talk trash would never try that crap outside of the job site..... If that was the case I would be curb stomping skulls left and right


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## Aurora Ventures (Aug 12, 2015)

Just because you older guys say you've endured much worse then the younger generation does NOT make it okay to be treated like dog ****! It wasn't okay back then and it's not okay now.


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## NC Plc (Mar 24, 2014)

Davethaboss said:


> I have matter of fact heard of penetration testing. You need to REALLY study and understand everything behind it. We are talking about the penetration


It's just white hat or grey hat hacking.



Davethaboss said:


> Now say I get those two certifications you just mentioned. Based off what I researched you either
> A. Work at a help desk and expect to go up the food chain.
> B. Do menial code tasks for the lead programmer. (some kids I think did this at Valve, lucky bastards.)
> C. Get even more degrees to pile on yourself.
> ...


Online degrees are hit and miss, some are reputable while others are for profit and rather worthless. I haven't kept up with IT so you will have to research what the current needs and trends are in IT then decide if the information is reliable and accurate.



ElectronFlow said:


> Here was a guy with major r00t access, and how it turned out for him:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silk_Road_(marketplace)#Arrest_and_trial_of_Ross_William_Ulbricht
> 
> He used VPN and TOR too....
> ...


... I don't think you understand what a VPN is or what TOR was at its height.

His little silk road operation (for those that don't know) was effectively a black market where you could buy drugs, murder for hire, child ****, etc. If I remember correctly it's one of the major reasons BtC gained so much traction.

It's a very good thing Silk Road was taken down, that place was vile from what I have read. They took it down in a way that they could snag some of the big users as well via attack nodes. Criminals like that are so keen when it comes to computers yet their ego prevents them from understanding that the government has very talented computer geeks as well. 



Davethaboss said:


> Can I have a conversation without any interruptions please?
> Don't worry this thread will die soon.
> 
> Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


That's not how internet forums work. :laughing:



wendon said:


> So who's going to pay for it? We're also producing a generation of lazy people that are taught from young on up that they're entitled to a free ride.


In many other countries higher education is affordable or free. Decades ago you could work a summer job here making minimum wage and use that to pay for your education.

Let's look at how much you have to work at a job to pay for college at NC state:

http://financialaid.ncsu.edu/cost-of-attendance/cost-of-attendance-undergraduate-students/

We'll take the cheaper number and assume they're living at home.

*$16,023. *So let's even assume they're making $12 an hour or roughly 1600 a month. They have to work 10 months, saving every single cent, to pay for one year of tuition. So going to college, if you did not come from a wealthy family, means you are forced to go into debt or simply not go.



wendon said:


> How is the government going to provide a "free" education? The government is broke.


Maybe if we were not such warmongers with a history of dealing arms around the world, assassinating dictators and leaders, and getting involved into conflicts we have no business being in we could afford to put a little more money towards college.



wendon said:


> What you might as well say is, "Those of us uneducated folks who have had to work for everything we've got, should work even harder so we can provide a free ride for those that don't enjoy working.


I guess those like me, that work quite a lot to slowly put themselves through college, are just lazy bums looking for a free ride by requesting college be made affordable. :laughing:


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

Davethaboss said:


> Er I have been gone and was hoping this thread would die
> I wanted last word on this thread
> 
> Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


good luck with that


----------



## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

Aurora Ventures said:


> I love how most of the posters here or electricians that talk trash would never try that crap outside of the job site..... If that was the case I would be curb stomping skulls left and right



Riiiiiight. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Michigan Master (Feb 25, 2013)

meadow said:


> Other countries make it easy: college is free. The idea that you can attach money to education, knowledge or skills is the greatest lie, deception and fraud of the millennium. This is a major subject all on its own. Some of the greatest discoveries of our time took place from free knowledge. You need to invest in people before they will give back, saying otherwise is putting the cart before the horse.





NC Plc said:


> Government needs to make college free or place a cap on the exponential growth of the cost of tuition. Otherwise yes they need to back off.


First off, there’s no such thing as free! The government does not have nor make money; the only way to make college “free” is to have working taxpayers foot the bill. I agree college is VERY expensive. This fall for 2 classes (at a four year university) my bill is $2,382 and that's excluding books; however my employer pays my tuition. 

Also if students didn’t have to pay for college, I image the dropout rate would actually increase as there wouldn’t be as much commitment to finish since they haven't made any monetary investment to start... 


NC Plc said:


> You're right, I often ask people at my college these questions:
> 1) Do you know the average salary for the position you wish to obtain once you have your college degree?
> 2) Do you know the job outlook and overall projected growth percentage for the field you wish to enter?
> 3) Do you understand what is required to gain employment in the field you wish to go into?


The Bureau of Labor Statistics is good starting point to answer some of these questions and investigate various careers.
http://www.bls.gov/ooh/
.
:laughing:


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## Fibes (Feb 18, 2010)

Aurora Ventures said:


> I love how most of the posters here or electricians that talk trash would never try that crap outside of the job site..... If that was the case I would be curb stomping skulls left and right


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## NC Plc (Mar 24, 2014)

Michigan Master said:


> First off, there’s no such thing as free! The government does not have nor make money; the only way to make college “free” is to have working taxpayers foot the bill. I agree college is VERY expensive. This fall for 2 classes (at a four year university) my bill is $2,382 and that's excluding books; however my employer pays my tuition.


Yes, in the countries where college is free for the student the taxes are higher and I believe there are fewer college students.



Michigan Master said:


> Also if students didn’t have to pay for college, I image the dropout rate would actually increase as there wouldn’t be as much commitment to finish since they haven't made any monetary investment to start...


That is an easy fix, if you are not performing well in your classes you're given an academic warning, if you do not improve the following year you are given a review by the department head and another higher up. Depending on their decision, you could possibly be suspended from the college for a set period of time.

I've seen a lot of people flunk out because they don't study.





Michigan Master said:


> The Bureau of Labor Statistics is good starting point to answer some of these questions and investigate various careers.
> http://www.bls.gov/ooh/
> .
> :laughing:


Yea, that's where I started when I was looking at various careers. The sad thing is most people I talk to don't even know about that site... Or they don't care it exists? Either way, they're not researching what they're going for.


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## Michigan Master (Feb 25, 2013)

NC Plc said:


> That is an easy fix, if you are not performing well in your classes you're given an academic warning, if you do not improve the following year you are given a review by the department head and another higher up. Depending on their decision, you could possibly be suspended from the college for a set period of time. I've seen a lot of people flunk out because they don't study.


I don't think that would prevent it from occurring. Maybe if they signed an agreement saying what degree they were pursuing, and when they'd be done, and what GPA they must hold while enrolled; failure to meet any part of the agreement would result in the requirement to payback all or part of the funds spent on their education.

I know a lot of folks who've enrolled in college multiple times (on and off). They have an assortment of college credits, but no degree because they keep changing their mind, dropping out, deciding to go back, and starting over. I think this statistic would get even worse if they instead spending someone else's money.


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## NC Plc (Mar 24, 2014)

Michigan Master said:


> I don't think that would prevent it from occurring. Maybe if they signed an agreement saying what degree they were pursuing, and when they'd be done, and what GPA they must hold while enrolled; failure to meet any part of the agreement would result in the requirement to payback all or part of the funds spent on their education.
> 
> I know a lot of folks who've enrolled in college multiple times (on and off). They have an assortment of college credits, but no degree because they keep changing their mind, dropping out, deciding to go back, and starting over. I think this statistic would get even worse if they instead spending someone else's money.


I can't argue that it is not going to happen. In my case work kept making going to class impossible since I am always on call, which is one of the reasons I changed to a math degree since the vast majority of it is online. The classes I do take on campus are 1 hour at the most, with some being nights or saturday classes.


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## Davethaboss (May 5, 2015)

wendon said:


> That was a huge concession! What's a little amusing is how some youngsters whine about how bad they have it, and yet they know so much. The truth is, their knowledge doesn't amount to a wire nut (marette) in the pouch of one of the experienced guys on here. You think you have it bad? You haven't seen nothing. Most of us, when we were your age, didn't have the luxury of being able to quit our job a live in mom's basement. We either had to keep working in spite of the mean boss, or we had to have another job lined up BEFORE we quit. Now go back to work.


I'm not even whining anymore.
What is the point of this comment if all it does is incite an argument?
I'm good dude. I know what I am going to do and I know how.
You don't even know me or who I am. That's why I've been so vague.
Can we please stop with the witty comments though?
I'm done essentially I have gotten everything I needed.
I don't want to waste your time or you waste mine.


Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

meadow said:


> In other countries schools drill math and science. They teach conduct and they teach appropriate behavior. Students who are gifted or excel in a particular areas have their gifts honored. US schools are polar opposites.


No $$$ in winners, lotta $$$ for losers here Meadow

~CS~


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

NC Plc said:


> Well, it is an example as to why electrical work is my fall back and my college degree is my main focus. Electrical work will pay for my college in the short term and I want my license, but I don't intend to make a career out of it past my 30s. :whistling2:
> 
> The old men that post on here can call it wussing out in my case as well if they wish, I call it valuing my time more than what most electrical work pays. One the exceptions being when you own your own successful business, which I will never do.


I can tell a smart kid like you all you need to know about building a biz from the ground up in two words....:whistling2:

*avoid it *.....

~CS~


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## NC Plc (Mar 24, 2014)

Being a successful business owner in my mind requires the ability to get along with people. Clearly that's not my strongest area haha.

If I had a business it would be a consulting firm of some kind.


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

Davethaboss said:


> I'm not even whining anymore.
> What is the point of this comment if all it does is incite an argument?
> I'm good dude. I know what I am going to do and I know how.
> You don't even know me or who I am. That's why I've been so vague.
> ...


Have you noticed that you are not in control of your thread?


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

readydave8 said:


> Have you noticed that you are not in control of your thread?


What's the difference between an electrician and a 747?


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

Aurora Ventures said:


> I love how most of the posters here or electricians that talk trash would never try that crap outside of the job site..... If that was the case I would be curb stomping skulls left and right


Wow! How big an ole boy are you?


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

Aurora Ventures said:


> Just because you older guys say you've endured much worse then the younger generation does NOT make it okay to be treated like dog ****! It wasn't okay back then and it's not okay now.


Define being treated like dog ****. The boss chews you out? You're asked to do a dirty job? Someone has to do it.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> No $$$ in winners, lotta $$$ for losers here Meadow
> 
> ~CS~



Until the winners turn losers


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## degupita (Jun 5, 2015)

RIVETER said:


> What was your last years salary?


Am I the test case?


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Michigan Master said:


> First off, there’s no such thing as free! The government does not have nor make money; the only way to make college “free” is to have working taxpayers foot the bill. I agree college is VERY expensive. This fall for 2 classes (at a four year university) my bill is $2,382 and that's excluding books; however my employer pays my tuition.



I disagree, in order to make money you need to invest money. Less money is involved in educating then the amount created when a person is working. 

Colleges are expensive because they are in it for profit. Look at all the new buildings in campus with giant attruims and statues. That better be part of the learning.


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## ElectronFlow (Dec 21, 2014)

NC Plc said:


> ... I don't think you understand what a VPN is or what TOR was at its height.
> 
> His little silk road operation (for those that don't know) was effectively a black market where you could buy drugs, murder for hire, child ****, etc. If I remember correctly it's one of the major reasons BtC gained so much traction.
> 
> It's a very good thing Silk Road was taken down, that place was vile from what I have read. They took it down in a way that they could snag some of the big users as well via attack nodes. Criminals like that are so keen when it comes to computers yet their ego prevents them from understanding that the government has very talented computer geeks as well.


I've some familiarity with both of those, but i don't profess to be
a binary wizard. However, if you want to take a peek at some of the stuff on tor, the best approach is, and remains, to do so carefully. 

I'm suspecting that the chicken and the egg applies here. TSR got
it's wheels from bitcoin, not the other way around. what really drove
bitcoin thru the roof was people trying to get money out of collapsing
european countries. There was no way of moving value out of collapsing banks, so people bought bitcoins at whatever price they could find them,
rather than lose all value in their holdings. Around march of 2013.

My entire post was simply a sarcastic rebuttal to the OP, with little value
other than that. The actual takedown of the operator of TSR seems to be
as a result of him grounding himself with a breach of his identity to someone,
all tho the particulars are intentionally vague.

it doesn't appear that the TOR envelope was breached.


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## NC Plc (Mar 24, 2014)

ElectronFlow said:


> NC Plc said:
> 
> 
> > ... I don't think you understand what a VPN is or what TOR was at its height.
> ...


The story behind BtC is actually very interesting. I'll reply in full when I get back, I need to refresh my memory as to the exact reason that guy made BtC.

They guy that spent years making BtC disappeared actually. Impressive feat if you ask me. Invents a valid digital currency then completely vanished.


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