# Ballast Lighting: Could phase sequence matter?



## theForce (Mar 21, 2013)

Hello,

On a 3-phase 120/208Y system, I got one lamp post with two ballasts to shine. 

Ballast Specs are as follows:

475w metal halide (Continuous Wattage Autotransformer)
Two ballasts connected in parallel.

The system feeding this is a Double Pole breaker in a lighting panel. Line to Line I measure 216v with a multimeter...at the panel all the way to the lamp post.

The lamp post is one of 4 others in a row of lamp posts in a parking lot. Each lamp post is connected in parallel to one another and as said before the lamp posts each have two ballasts connected in paraleel. So, there is really two parallel connected ballasts connected in parallel to another set of ballasts all in row on two lines coming from a panel.

My question: What happens if I connect the primarie(s) of one set of ballasts to line 2 and connect line 3 to the common(s) of this set and then move on down to the next lamp post and switch things around by connecting line 3 to the primarie(s) and line 2 to the common(s) of the next set? In other words will phase sequence matter? The ballasts are inductive and depend on phase relations...but I know nothing else.

I need to figure out why I got one light to shine and when I moved to the next lamp post to connect yet another set of new ballasts, I turned things on waited around for a bit and then went outside to see...the second lamp post was completely dark (not even a flicker after) and the other lamp post shined and then one of the two lights on it went out...

When I went back to the panel...I could hear an intermitant buzzing and vibrating from the MDP that the light panel (and the rest of the building) connects to.

Thanks, 

theForce


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## glen1971 (Oct 10, 2012)

You'll have to make sure that the sequence is correct. A-B-C (clockwise), or else your rotation at the lamps will be counterclockwise and the lamps will fall out...:laughing:


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

There is a star wars joke in here somewhere....


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## theForce (Mar 21, 2013)

glen1971 said:


> You'll have to make sure that the sequence is correct. A-B-C (clockwise), or else your rotation at the lamps will be counterclockwise and the lamps will fall out...:laughing:


Well, thanks for this bit of insight. I did'nt think phase sequence was what the expeienced electrician would look for. Can you tell me how parking lot lights on 208v would be done? I gather that phase sequence isn't the concern but I noticed that the electricians that onstalled the parking area lights were color coded the wires:

1) The line wires coming from the first lamp post are solid black. At the next lamp post there are two black lines coming from the first lamp post and now a black and a white going to the next lamp post.

2) the wires going up the second lamp post are red and blue every other lamp post has a red and a blue going up to the ballasts *except* the first lamp post which has two blue wires. 

Thanks.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

theForce said:


> Well, thanks for this bit of insight. I did'nt think phase sequence was what the expeienced electrician would look for. Can you tell me how parking lot lights on 208v would be done? I gather that phase sequence isn't the concern but I noticed that the electricians that onstalled the parking area lights were color coded the wires:
> 
> 1) The line wires coming from the first lamp post are solid black. At the next lamp post there are two black lines coming from the first lamp post and now a black and a white going to the next lamp post.
> 
> ...


If you replace the white wire with another black wire you can get a different voltage out of it :laughing:


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

they already locked out your last thread pal. but hey just keep trying and you'll learn enough to **** it up worse than it alredy is


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## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

That white wire going from the first light to the second explains everything. It should have been orange. Sadly, there are hacks out there installing white wires in pole lights all the time. My suggestion, pull it out and run a #6 orange.


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## theForce (Mar 21, 2013)

Ah, I see you are telling me my post was removed for indecency...because for whatever reason you feel like I should quit following up on this thread. Well I don't need you to tell me that. What I want to know is why did the former electricians maintain a pattern...blue to common and red to the primary on the ballast? No one cares about weather my thread got locked out. I'm still getting paid one way or the other. 



theForce


.


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

Blah blah blah. I'd recommend hiring an electrician...but don't, you got it


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## theForce (Mar 21, 2013)

Vintage Sounds said:


> That white wire going from the first light to the second explains everything. It should have been orange. Sadly, there are hacks out there installing white wires in pole lights all the time. My suggestion, pull it out and run a #6 orange.


Please don't make fun of me. I know that pulling out a perfectly good conductor won't eliminate the problem that occured after I tried to move to the next light. You're not special just because I asked you for your knowledge. You're special because you stand at the door to letting a stranger through so he can make lights shine in a parking lot. Will you not lend a hand and help get these lights working. There is so much sadness and suffering in the world you could remove if you'll help me.


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## stuiec (Sep 25, 2010)

theForce said:


> Please don't make fun of me. I know that pulling out a perfectly good conductor won't eliminate the problem that occured after I tried to move to the next light. You're not special just because I asked you for your knowledge. You're special because you stand at the door to letting a stranger through so he can make lights shine in a parking lot. Will you not lend a hand and help get these lights working. There is so much sadness and suffering in the world you could remove if you'll help me.


 
nono no no. This appeal is no good in this place. Here's what you need to do. Get a box of kittens. (pics or it didn't happen) Announce that, for each minute that you don't get a decent answer from a serious electrician, one kitty gets it. (it will help if you first give them names) You'll still get a butt ton of abuse and ridicule, but there are at least two or three cat fanciers on this site that also happen to be pretty knowlegable, electrically speaking.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

Most of us here except paypal, and creditcard for online assitance with your DIY job.


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

stuiec said:


> nono no no. This appeal is no good in this place. Here's what you need to do. Get a box of kittens. (pics or it didn't happen) Announce that, for each minute that you don't get a decent answer from a serious electrician, one kitty gets it. (it will help if you first give them names) You'll still get a butt ton of abuse and ridicule, but there are at least two or three cat fanciers on this site that also happen to be pretty knowlegable, electrically speaking.


Haha. Best. Craftsmen...?....more like CATSmen!! Am I right people! I'll be here all night


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## theForce (Mar 21, 2013)

ponyboy said:


> Blah blah blah. I'd recommend hiring an electrician...but don't, you got it


They don't have the money to hire an electrician in these hard economic times. That's why i'm working on the lights instead. I'm not an electrician but I am prepared enough to fix them with a minimum of advice. However that may disturb some people so I might have to get by on my own. So yes "i've got it" but it won't be easy. Thanks but no thanks.


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## Awg-Dawg (Jan 23, 2007)

stuiec said:


> there are at least two or three cat fanciers on this site t


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## theForce (Mar 21, 2013)

stuiec said:


> nono no no. This appeal is no good in this place. Here's what you need to do. Get a box of kittens. (pics or it didn't happen) Announce that, for each minute that you don't get a decent answer from a serious electrician, one kitty gets it. (it will help if you first give them names) You'll still get a butt ton of abuse and ridicule, but there are at least two or three cat fanciers on this site that also happen to be pretty knowlegable, electrically speaking.


Well yea I see your point there. Sure beats pay pal. I'm not good at finding interesting 
ways to show people I'm not a do-it-myselfer. But i will keep you're sugestion in mind since i will surely need to learn to work with people.


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## stuiec (Sep 25, 2010)

theForce said:


> Well yea I see your point there. Sure beats pay pal. I'm not good at finding interesting
> ways to show people I'm not a do-it-myselfer. But i will keep you're sugestion in mind since i will surely need to learn to work with people.


 
Its all about knowing your audience :thumbsup:. Electricians are d1cks!:laughing:


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## theForce (Mar 21, 2013)

stuiec said:


> Its all about knowing your audience :thumbsup:. Electricians are d1cks!:laughing:


Sounds a little too english-y for a "di1ck". I've got a very large nose.


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## xlink (Mar 12, 2012)

theForce said:


> Well yea I see your point there. Sure beats pay pal. I'm not good at finding interesting
> ways to show people I'm not a do-it-myselfer. But i will keep you're sugestion in mind since i will surely need to learn to work with people.


When an electrician gives advice to someone whom he knows is unqualified, or encourages him to do work for which he is not qualified, the electrician is liable for property damage and personal injury. I suspect that a monitored internet site, like this one, also would have some liability. Why isn't this thread locked?


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## Rochsolid (Aug 9, 2012)

ponyboy said:


> haha. Best. Craftsmen...?....more like catsmen!! Am i right people! I'll be here all night


bazinga!


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## theForce (Mar 21, 2013)

*An update*

Gentlemen (& cat fanciers),

I chanced upon an excerpt from a book that indicates a cause for electrical load unbalance in commercial electrical systems is improper phase sequence
Applicable codes (the NEC in my location) specify a systematic loading of each phase so one phase doesn't carry a disproportionate load.

This is why the original installers of this row of lamp posts were separating the lines/connections by color.

But I tjinl there is more to the circuit than I know at the moment. The first lamp post had othe ballast windings wired in series. Phase A going to a common on one ballast and primary on the second ballast. Phase B similarly connected to the common of one and the primary of the other. But on the second lamp post the windings were in parallel where one phase supplied both commons and the other phase supplied both secondaries.

But I will probably have to work this one out on my own by doing some circuit analysis...


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

man, this is really a waste of a good space for a Cletis thread.


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

Sounds like the ballasts internal retroencabulator is fried. I'd suggest replacing the ballasts in the first pole not working.


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## Tsmil (Jul 17, 2011)

Lol. 

http://www.flixxy.com/rockwell-automation-systems.htm


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

stuiec said:


> Its all about knowing your audience :thumbsup:. Electricians are d1cks!:laughing:


 They're bastards. Bastard coated bastards with a bastard filling.


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## RHWilks (Jul 14, 2012)

This one hasn't been locked yet?


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

theForce said:


> Gentlemen (& cat fanciers),
> 
> I chanced upon an excerpt from a book that indicates a cause for electrical load unbalance in commercial electrical systems is improper phase sequence
> Applicable codes (the NEC in my location) specify a systematic loading of each phase so one phase doesn't carry a disproportionate load.
> ...


Your profile says student, if you do electrical work and something goes wrong, you will have no insurance to cover it. The people you are" helping" will also be liable. There are more lawyers out there looking for work in these hard times too. Besides, I thought all you students loved the "man" and the "man" says its getting better!


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## xlink (Mar 12, 2012)

If you change the phase sequence, don't worry about the bulb coming unscrewed. Your bulb is already unscrewed.

ibtl


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## theForce (Mar 21, 2013)

backstay said:


> Your profile says student, if you do electrical work and something goes wrong, you will have no insurance to cover it. The people you are" helping" will also be liable. There are more lawyers out there looking for work in these hard times too. Besides, I thought all you students loved the "man" and the "man" says its getting better!


I don't know for sure but it seems like you think I'm one of those people who 'stayed behind' in Baton Rouge back in 2005 when hurricane katrina hit. 

It is true that there are lots of those sorts of people out there. They burn every bridge; even their library cards. When they need help they wait behind for their wellfare checks to arrive so they have enough to commute away from the storm area before it hits. 

I'm not making any money off of this. I'm not trying to usurp the system and do electrical work without a license. 

The 'people' I am helping are very well frugal, reputable, and organized. They are a non-profit organization and in all common sense won't budget $6000 for fixing the parking lot lights.

They are essentially helping me do what I can't learn at school and what I probably won't be working on if I were to get hired. If I got hired and I said things about phase sequence I would probably be sweeping floors for a week before being let go. 

Since I'm not getting help here I am going to start experimenting at home and make measurments using my multimeter and some textbooks I bought that cover troubleshooting steps and how to take readings on ballasts.

If you would spend a couple more years in school yourself and possibly do your own experiments at home you could upgrade to engineering instead of worrying about me & who is and is not a wellfare bunny...

:no:


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## stuiec (Sep 25, 2010)

Are you sure you're not _already_ an engineer? :shifty:


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

if the people you are working for aren't frugal, they are foolish. It's a lot easier to pay a licensed and insured electrician to fix the lights, then pay the insurance claim, disability, or death from having an unqualified student try to troubleshoot the lights. Hell, a decent funeral is probably twice the amount you quoted. Foolish, foolhardy, downright stupid.


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

wildleg said:


> if the people you are working for aren't frugal, they are foolish. It's a lot easier to pay a licensed and insured electrician to fix the lights, then pay the insurance claim, disability, or death from having an unqualified student try to troubleshoot the lights. Hell, a decent funeral is probably twice the amount you quoted. Foolish, foolhardy, downright stupid.


It's going to take more than Jedi mind tricks to get out of that mess.


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## FastFokker (Sep 18, 2012)

Ohhhh muuhhhh gaaawd beeecky!


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

I read it three times and I'm still confused by what you're trying to get at.

What is the problem?
What would you like to accomplish?
What are the symptoms?


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

If you are really a electrician student then you should have someone whom is experince on electrical system to assit you and they will tell how it be done in correct way.

However this thread will be locked now for safety reason.

If you want this to be reopen PM any one of the moderators.

Merci,
Marc


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