# I got asked to bid for adding CO detectors to a loading dock at a hotel.



## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

macmikeman said:


> I haven't been given any engineering drawings or other documents yet. I was wondering if anyone knows where to find proper standards for CO Detection and placement of sensors. Big space- 50 ft wide x 150 long with 22 ft high ceilings.
> Trucks driving in and out all day with deliveries. I don't see much in the way of displacement fans or ac ducting and forced air exchange in there. And it's pretty well closed in except for the drive thru opening at one end which is open to the outdoors. This could be alarm going off all day heaven. Or hell...


Toss the engineer guys a bunch of coconut shells to them and let them figure it out .,,

really Mac .,, CO detection in loading dock ?? aww heck non merci.,,, 

It will drive the fire alarm nuts .

I would just install heat detectors and be done with it. 

shove those turkeys a new edition of NFPA .,,


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## sparkiez (Aug 1, 2015)

macmikeman said:


> I haven't been given any engineering drawings or other documents yet. I was wondering if anyone knows where to find proper standards for CO Detection and placement of sensors. Big space- 50 ft wide x 150 long with 22 ft high ceilings.
> Trucks driving in and out all day with deliveries. I don't see much in the way of displacement fans or ac ducting and forced air exchange in there. And it's pretty well closed in except for the drive thru opening at one end which is open to the outdoors. This could be alarm going off all day heaven. Or hell...



You are going to find these standards in the international building code.


https://www.ecmag.com/section/codes-standards/carbon-monoxide-detection


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## stuiec (Sep 25, 2010)

I'd be wary of those detectors being classified as life safety devices and being subject to big liability. That's where I'd start.


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## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

Actually I have had a similar request lately; client wants propane detection for the forklifts in his shop.

He was hoping to connect them to the existing security / fire detection system, but I don't think it will work. The CO sensor and the ones for raw fuel (propane / methane / gasoline) are not the same type of detector. I have an technical request to the panel manufacturer to see if there is a compatible third-party system that may work on a standard NO/NC contact in the existing panel.

Cheers
John


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## varmit (Apr 19, 2009)

If there is no exhaust system in this area, you might as well wire the alarm to be on full time. 

The "normal" operation would be an exhaust fan that ran constantly or was started by truck entry to area. the exhaust fan/duct entry, and the detector, would be located near the floor since CO is heavier than air. The alarm would be a separate, unique sound if the CO was higher than the detector safe limits. This system is not normally connected to the fire alarm system. You can also have a two speed fan that changes to high speed on an alarm. Also, if you have an exhaust fan, you must have an air intake of some sort, but most dock areas are not exactly air tight.

This is the way I have done these at freight terminals in Ohio. Your state may have different codes however.


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

macmikeman said:


> I haven't been given any engineering drawings or other documents yet. I was wondering if anyone knows where to find proper standards for CO Detection and placement of sensors. Big space- 50 ft wide x 150 long with 22 ft high ceilings.
> Trucks driving in and out all day with deliveries. I don't see much in the way of displacement fans or ac ducting and forced air exchange in there. And it's pretty well closed in except for the drive thru opening at one end which is open to the outdoors. This could be alarm going off all day heaven. Or hell...


If it's considered a garage (due to having roof and walls) then by code it needs mechanical ventilation if >50% of the wall area is not open to free air. At least that's how it was. It probably still is. What you described needs mechanical ventilation. 

They should walk around with a handheld meter and measure the levels so they know what they're dealing with.

Then they need a mechanical engineer (or contractor) to give them however many cfm the mechanical code (or bldg code) says for that area. And they'll need you to run power to that. Maybe you could do the fan installs too.

What's your building code there?


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

MikeFL said:


> If it's considered a garage (due to having roof and walls) then by code it needs mechanical ventilation if >50% of the wall area is not open to free air. At least that's how it was. It probably still is. What you described needs mechanical ventilation.
> 
> They should walk around with a handheld meter and measure the levels so they know what they're dealing with.
> 
> ...



Thanks for bringing this up to the attention on that part of code and I just hope other readers can get this part pretty clear.

I am not sure what year or any admendment on the building codes at Hawaii locations but for Philippines I am not too far off from the building codes beside some admendends for being in earthquake area.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

International Building Code, I think it is the 2012 edition. I agree it should not be tied to FA system. I haven't been the front man sitting at the meeting on this idea the engineering dept. at the site has hatched, but I bet they are looking for somebody to put in a standalone alert system. I agree also it might be a liability beyond belief to assume it would prevent physical demise from CO, especially with the current situation of air handling in that dock which frankly yes should be called loading garage, not loading dock. 


Same day, same facility my connection had me walking around various points in the building looking at duress buttons and kicks where cash is exchanged , all remote from the security office because they also want a quote to upgrade the duress system they currently have. No drawings, nothing on paper yet, just " how much to replace the current system"., type questions. I never walk right into traps. I will look into it a bit and come up with questions for them, but it needs to be a formal request before I spend any real time on the effort. 

If this becomes serious, I will be asking for either they bring in an engineering company to produce drawings and engineer the job or pay me up front to do the same using an outside source to engineer it. Either way- pay up front. .......


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

By the way, I remember some thirty years ago a similar question was asked of me- could I install an access control system at our largest airport, before any formal drawings or engineering for such a grand system was begun. I said sure I can, and eventually I ended up doing exactly that- but it was a 5 year 12.5 million dollar venture, and that was only my part, millions more for the electrical engineer who designed it, and more for the third party "engineering" company that was providing "project management" which meant - writing letters and slowing every process down as much as possible. Government job- a mess. 
This facility is a Pentagon owned hotel/ resort for military on leave. Sometimes a small idiotic question from a clueless facility engineer can lead to giant things. That is my experience, so I always say "yea I can do that". when asked.


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