# Salting



## WhitehouseRT (Aug 20, 2013)

Anyone familiar with a "salting" agreement??, and can explain details


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

its a great opportunity for you, take it


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## WhitehouseRT (Aug 20, 2013)

360max said:


> its a great opportunity for you, take it


What is it??


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Not in the union but my experiance with salts tells me the agreement must be something like this.

_*I agree to be a lying sack of crap for the good of the union.*_


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

360max said:


> its a great opportunity for you, take it


Yeah a great opportunity to be as respected as a lawyer or used car salesman.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Salting is one of many reasons why I utterly detest unions.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

WhitehouseRT said:


> Anyone familiar with a "salting" agreement??, and can explain details


Basically the hall asks one of its members to go to work for a non union contractor and pays the difference in wages.

The purpose of the salt depends upon the contractor, but in most cases it is to provide an example of the quality manpower available via the hall and to expose the non union manpower with a union perspective.

( There will be many folks on this forum who will claim all sorts of things about salts. Anecdotal tales must be taken, well, with a grain of salt. )

IBTL.


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## Mich drew (Mar 3, 2013)

Salting is when union members,with the blessing of the IBEW,go to work for a non union shop and try to get the non union electricians and or company to go union.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

eejack said:


> ( There will be many folks on this forum who will claim all sorts of things about salts. Anecdotal tales must be taken, well, with a grain of salt. )
> 
> IBTL.


Translation

There will be many people who will speak truths eejack does not want to hear and will deny 

Of course if you take some time on google you will find a lot of info and you can decide for yourself.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

BBQ said:


> Translation
> 
> There will be many people who will speak truths eejack does not want to hear and will deny
> 
> Of course if you take some time on google you will find a lot of info and you can decide for yourself.


I forgot about google...
Here is a link to a salting agreement.
http://www.ibew46.org/documents/SaltAgreement.110705.pdf

And if you read the salting horror stories, look at who wrote them and what site they are on and ask yourself...do they ever say anything pleasant about workers or unions...grain of salt.


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

BBQ said:


> Not in the union but my experiance with salts tells me the agreement must be something like this.
> 
> _*I agree to be a lying sack of crap for the good of the union.*_


I'd salt your job just to make you pissed. :laughing::laughing:


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

"Agreement".


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

MTW said:


> Salting is one of many reasons why I utterly detest unions.


why, non union shops have no problem talking to other companies guys at the supply house when they need qualified help, how is salting any different (when properly done)?


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

big2bird said:


> I'd salt your job just to make you pissed. :laughing::laughing:


I wouldn't, he works way to many nights, I had my share of that.


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## WhitehouseRT (Aug 20, 2013)

360max said:


> why, non union shops have no problem talking to other companies guys at the supply house when they need qualified help, how is salting any different (when properly done)?


Agreed.... it seems to me like if you were truly not doing anything wrong ( as far as treating your guys right, and following the labor laws) then you would really have nothing to worry about having a "salt"


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

WhitehouseRT said:


> Agreed.... it seems to me like if you were truly not doing anything wrong ( as far as treating your guys right, and following the labor laws) then you would really have nothing to worry about having a "salt"


That is true, if the company follows every rule, no matter how obscure to the letter, every day. They should not have a problem.

Just like if a cop sets up a speed trap at the bottom of a hill and you always keep your speed perfect you have nothing to worry about.

The salts I have worked with did all they could due to draw the company into breaking a rule.

In one case there were three of them that worked one job we were on and not once said a thing about being in the union to anyone for about 3 months. Their work was average. So to say they were there to show the rest of us how good the union was is simply untrue.

Once they 'came out' we all told them to screw.

To each their own.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

big2bird said:


> I'd salt your job just to make you pissed. :laughing::laughing:


Come on over, we need someone qualified to run cord ..........:laughing:


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Not in the union but my experiance with salts tells me the agreement must be something like this.
> 
> _*I agree to be a lying sack of crap for the good of the union.*_


The local in Bobs area is aggressive and does everything it can to protect it's work(I know you don't like the way that sounds Bob) so it's a bit different there.

The program does two things, when a local is slow, they allow guys to work non-union to make wages and promote the work of its members.
Some think guys go to a union shop to sabotage it or something like that. Guys I know that have done some salting generally had a good experience and didn't cause any trouble.
Like most things involving human beings, there are always problems. Problem stories are much more interesting so, they get passes around a bit more.

Hope that helps.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

jrannis said:


> The local in Bobs area is aggressive and does everything it can to protect it's work(I know you don't like the way that sounds Bob) so it's a bit different there.


I know I don't like the way that sounds. You make it seem like somehow they are entitled to certain work. Like by some devine intervention it is their work for the doing and someone else is stealing it.


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

Speedy Petey said:


> I know I don't like the way that sounds. You make it seem like somehow they are entitled to certain work. Like by some devine intervention it is their work for the doing and someone else is stealing it.


His description of salting is completely false also.

But then that is what we expect from the likes of 360max,LGLS, Jrannis and big bird.

Self entitlement and lies.


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

BBQ said:


> Come on over, we need someone qualified to run cord ..........:laughing:


Sorry. I'm booked solid for 3 years. Maybe next lifetime.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

robnj772 said:


> His description of salting is completely false also.
> 
> But then that is what we expect from the likes of 360max,LGLS, Jrannis and big bird.
> 
> Self entitlement and lies.


Another idiot that doesn't know the difference between "earned" and "entitled"


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

jrannis said:


> Another idiot that doesn't know the difference between "earned" and "entitled"


OK, feel free to explain why the the IBEW has earned the right to call all electrcal work theirs more than a non IBEW member.


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## union347sparky (Feb 29, 2012)

BBQ said:


> OK, feel free to explain why the the IBEW has earned the right to call all electrcal work theirs more than a non IBEW member.


 Because the IBEW has worked together with contractors to create this trade. IBEW has been there since the begging of this modern trade fighting for safety, wages, and education. Non union guys ride ibews coat tails building on its work. Non union enjoys their standard of working and living due to the success of the union. The union isn't perfect and needs some updating and pr control. But for a non union guy to claim he did it on his merit is laughable at best.


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

union347sparky said:


> Because the IBEW has worked together with contractors to create this trade. IBEW has been there since the begging of this modern trade fighting for safety, wages, and education. Non union guys ride ibews coat tails building on its work. Non union enjoys their standard of working and living due to the success of the union. The union isn't perfect and needs some updating and pr control. But for a non union guy to claim he did it on his merit is laughable at best.


What an ignorant sob.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

union347sparky said:


> Because the IBEW has worked together with contractors to create this trade. IBEW has been there since the begging of this modern trade fighting for safety, wages, and education. Non union guys ride ibews coat tails building on its work. Non union enjoys their standard of working and living due to the success of the union. The union isn't perfect and needs some updating and pr control. But for a non union guy to claim he did it on his merit is laughable at best.


Thank you for doing a great job of showing how screwed up your thinking is. :laughing:


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

There is that old saying that goes: "Give someone an inch of rope to hang themselves and they will take a mile." Once again the IBEW never fails to disappoint. :thumbsup:


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

union347sparky said:


> Because the IBEW has worked together with contractors to create this trade. IBEW has been there since the begging of this modern trade fighting for safety, wages, and education. Non union guys ride ibews coat tails building on its work. Non union enjoys their standard of working and living due to the success of the union. The union isn't perfect and needs some updating and pr control. But for a non union guy to claim he did it on his merit is laughable at best.


Dude,
We don't talk about the elephant in the room on this forum.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Thank you for doing a great job of showing how screwed up your thinking is. :laughing:


Soo, all of this was voluntarily? Nobody did a thing...


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

jrannis said:


> Soo, all of this was voluntarily? Nobody did a thing...



No i did not say that and I have time and again mentioned that the IBEW has done some good things in the past.

Lets look at what 347 said. 




union347sparky said:


> Because the IBEW has worked together with contractors to create this trade.


Ah no. With or without the IBEW the trade would exist, that's a stone cold fact. Proved many times over. 



> IBEW has been there since the begging of this modern trade fighting for safety, wages, and education.


What changes in the safety and education requirements has the IBEW changed in recent times?

So basically what 347 said is this;

Because he joined a group that has done good things in the past he has earned the right to claim all electrical work as his own.


News flash, the current membership has not earned anything, they joined the IBEW to ride the coat tails of those before them. 

Its pretty simple to figure out that if the union was half as great as presented by many on this forum that they would not be losing market share.


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

Salting is done, to cost a merit shop owner and their employees, to either join the Union, or go out of business, and usually it is the latter.

Salts intentionally screw things up to cause financial damage to a merit shop owner.

There is no other reason. 

Anything these union guys here say about it otherwise, is a lie.


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## union347sparky (Feb 29, 2012)

BBQ said:


> No i did not say that and I have time and again mentioned that the IBEW has done some good things in the past. Lets look at what 347 said. Ah no. With or without the IBEW the trade would exist, that's a stone cold fact. Proved many times over. What changes in the safety and education requirements has the IBEW changed in recent times? So basically what 347 said is this; Because he joined a group that has done good things in the past he has earned the right to claim all electrical work as his own. News flash, the current membership has not earned anything, they joined the IBEW to ride the coat tails of those before them. Its pretty simple to figure out that if the union was half as great as presented by many on this forum that they would not be losing market share.


News flash. I never said anything about present day here moron. I think IBEW in some areas are screwed up. But to try to erase history just to ease your ego when the IBEW rejected you is stupidity. 

Electrical work is not mine. It's everybody's to do. However, it is what it is in present day because of the IBEW. YOU didn't do anything to improve it either since becoming an electrician. You are riding the coat tails of those before you. IBEW members recognize that. You are arrogant enough not to and think you achieved what you have on own merit. You didn't. 

Electricity would have existed w/o the IBEW. The trade as we know it would not. Get over it.


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## bkmichael65 (Mar 25, 2013)

In ancient times, an invading army would not only attempt to take away prisoners/ slaves, but they would also salt the soil and water supplies so that the area could not sustain life and the enemy would be totally vanquished. Seems the more that things change, the more they stay the same


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

union347sparky said:


> News flash . Electricity would have existed w/o the IBEW. Get over it.


 I edited out all the fluffy nonsense and broke his post down to the facts.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

BBQ said:


> No i did not say that and I have time and again mentioned that the IBEW has done some good things in the past.
> 
> Lets look at what 347 said.
> 
> ...


We pay out of every paycheck to lobby for our industry and all boats rise with the tide.


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

jrannis said:


> Another idiot that doesn't know the difference between "earned" and "entitled"


 Well since now you have resorted to name calling I guess you are getting angry , it's ok if I was you I would be angry also . I feel sorry for you .


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## union347sparky (Feb 29, 2012)

Bkessler said:


> What an ignorant sob.


Wow you have no argument do you? Already resorting to name calling. Ok I'll play that. 

What a dumb back stabbing judas you are.


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

union347sparky said:


> Wow you have no argument do you? Already resorting to name calling. Ok I'll play that. What a dumb back stabbing judas you are.


Dude don't copy me

You called someone a moron , that's name calling!!!!!

MORON !!!!!

God you union guys are so stupid it's embarrassing


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

union347sparky said:


> Wow you have no argument do you? Already resorting to name calling. Ok I'll play that. What a dumb back stabbing judas you are.


There is no need to argue. I've heard the union babble for 20 years. Your right though I should have left out the sob part.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Speedy Petey said:


> I know I don't like the way that sounds. You make it seem like somehow they are entitled to certain work. Like by some devine intervention it is their work for the doing and someone else is stealing it.


It simple means the kind of work that union contractors typically do and typically go after. Nothing divine, no burning bushes. No reason for panties being in a twist....:laughing:


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Dnkldorf said:


> Anything these union guys here say about it otherwise, is a lie.


Okay, same game...

Whining and lying about salting is done to prevent workers from understanding there is a choice between non union contractors and union contractors. That understanding would ruin many non union contractors because they pay poorly and have wretched benefits and conditions.

Anything the non union guys here say about it otherwise is a lie.


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## rewire (Jul 2, 2013)

eejack said:


> Okay, same game...
> 
> Whining and lying about salting is done to prevent workers from understanding there is a choice between non union contractors and union contractors. That understanding would ruin many non union contractors because they pay poorly and have wretched benefits and conditions.
> 
> Anything the non union guys here say about it otherwise is a lie.


 if their goal is to promote the union why do they hide the fact they are in the union?


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

rewire said:


> if their goal is to promote the union why do they hide the fact they are in the union?


He will deny that happens. 

Just like he would deny water is wet if that is what the hall tells him.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Kind of funny, I am watching a TV show about the Mob and how they bankrolled and controlled the unions. :laughing:


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

BBQ said:


> Kind of funny, I am watching a TV show about the Mob and how they bankrolled and controlled the unions. :laughing:


No, that isn't possible. Unions have always been as pure as the driven snow. They helped the working people in 1890, don'tcha know?


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

no comment on salting but found this funny as hell


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

robnj772 said:


> Well since now you have resorted to name calling I guess you are getting angry , it's ok if I was you I would be angry also . I feel sorry for you .


I'm waiting for fifteen year old I screwed your mother jokes from you. Talk about pot calling the kettle black...


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

rewire said:


> if their goal is to promote the union why do they hide the fact they are in the union?


It is illegal for a con to ask if you are in a bargaining union during in interview. Therefore the employee doesn't tell him. He is salting for employees mostly. Not the cheesy company that is currently employing some talent. The salt doesn't talk about the union unless he is asked by a coworker that is not unionized. For the most part a union salt can only approach you on joining after work. I worked with a union salt while I worked non union, and it was obvious he had more experience, patience, and skill than my foreman. I could tell it frustrated him to no end.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

cl219um said:


> It is illegal for a con to ask if you are in a bargaining union during in interview. Therefore the employee doesn't tell him. He is salting for employees mostly. Not the cheesy company that is currently employing some talent. The salt doesn't talk about the union unless he is asked by a coworker that is not unionized. For the most part a union salt can only approach you on joining after work. I worked with a union salt while I worked non union, and it was obvious he had more experience, patience, and skill than my foreman. I could tell it frustrated him to no end.


The three I worked with for months were simple average. They said nothing to anyone about the union before, during or after work. 

They spent their time pushing the limits trying to draw a great company into breaking a labor law. What is pretty telling is they were unsuccessful in that or attracting the employees to go union. 

When they 'came out' they tried to push the union at break and lunch. It was fun because we all told them to screw.


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

I am sorry about your experience. Mine was different. At a hospital addition. Guy was soft spoken and knew what he was doing. My foreman was young, in his early thirties and kind of an arrogant ass. IMO. I hated going to work up until I worked with the salt. He had patience and knowledge that was a nice change of pace. Kept his opinions to himself and did his job. I worked partners till one day he was gone.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

robnj772 said:


> Well since now you have resorted to name calling I guess you are getting angry , it's ok if I was you I would be angry also . I feel sorry for you .


Im not angry, I just thought a simple "thank you IBEW members for raising the bar for all of us" would be nice.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

cl219um said:


> I am sorry about your experience. Mine was different.


I belive you and I mean that.

If there is one thing I have learned from these national forums is that things are done differently in every location.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

jrannis said:


> Im not angry, I just thought a simple "thank you IBEW members for raising the bar for all of us" would be nice.


The people that need the thanking are all dead.

Stop trying to be a hero for others efforts.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

BBQ said:


> The people that need the thanking are all dead.
> 
> Stop trying to be a hero for others efforts.


AAHHH, the electrician martyrs of long ago.


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

BBQ said:


> The people that need the thanking are all dead.
> 
> Stop trying to be a hero for others efforts.


Every journeyman you have worked for deserves to be thanked. Some teach you a lot, and the ones that make you grind your teeth and make you stronger help you appreciate the days you don't have to work with them. Listen to others opinions and they will respect you for it. Know it alls are the worst people to work for or with IMO.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

cl219um said:


> Every journeyman you have worked for deserves to be thanked. Some teach you a lot, and the ones that make you grind your teeth and make you stronger help you appreciate the days you don't have to work with them. Listen to others opinions and they will respect you for it. Know it alls are the worst people to work for or with IMO.


Your post has nothing at all to do with the post of mine you quoted.

I do thank those that teach me, some of them have been union members.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

jrannis said:


> AAHHH, the electrician martyrs of long ago.


I guess so.

What have you personally done to 'raise the tide around me?' 

Nothing, not a thing.


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

BBQ said:


> Your post has nothing at all to do with the post of mine you quoted.
> 
> I do thank those that teach me, some of them have been union members.


That's what I like about you. You get me...


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

I agree. The tides have changed. No matter how much the union gives up during negotiations, there is always someone out there doing it cheaper. Also a market for consumers that are wanting installation done as fast and cheap as possible. I even see the craftsmanship standard get lowered by some electricians in the union. Willing to give everything that our forefathers have fought for. Work through breaks that are actually recommended by labor strategists for company owners. So many more non union cons popping up daily, trying to out bid, and undercut. If I was getting work done from an electrical outfit, I wouldn't call on the cheapest. You get what you pay for.


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

jrannis said:


> Im not angry, I just thought a simple "thank you IBEW members for raising the bar for all of us" would be nice.


Haaaaaa haaaaaaa.

I just blew beer thru my nose.

That's funny .

Hey the city of Detroit would like to thank you for making her a ghost town.

The Chinese would also like to thank you for all the jobs.

Thank you for union greed , ruining companies , raising my taxes .

It's not the 1920's anymore. Unions have run their course,got too greedy and are rapidly vanishing.


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

robnj772 said:


> Haaaaaa haaaaaaa.
> 
> I just blew beer thru my nose.
> 
> ...


Ahhh... Corporate greed. Look up what percentage of a car went into the labor of assembling it. Clue in. The companies that went to other states in America moved to places like Texas where screwing the workers is normal. You know this one. Right to work for less states. Now Michigan has become one too thanks to our republican gov. I could work out of my union without paying dues. I would get union representation as well. No pension. I will keep them up though.


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## 347sparky (May 14, 2012)

BBQ said:


> *losing* quote]
> 
> Finally someone spelled it right! :thumbup: It's not *loosing*! :no:


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## 347sparky (May 14, 2012)

robnj772 said:


> Haaaaaa haaaaaaa.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Mich drew (Mar 3, 2013)

It seems many people don't understand what solidarity means anymore,as a trade, or as a nation. Too much of the what's in it for me only mentality.


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

Detroit was built on the backs of union labor. You must hang out with the guy on this forum that has the Wall Street avatar. You know. The union buster with "greed" under it. I liked Martin sheen better in that movie. Charle sheen kinda sucked to. I guess you would have to be born a one percenter to have that avatar.


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## rewire (Jul 2, 2013)

so the unemployed union guy who was sitting the bench is paid by the hall to go to non union shop get employment and then try and talk all the hands into going union leaving their non union employment and sitting on the bench he just came from. Oh and he is ahead of them on the book.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

cl219um said:


> Detroit was built on the backs of union labor. You must hang out with the guy on this forum that has the Wall Street avatar. You know. The union buster with "greed" under it. I liked Martin sheen better in that movie. Charle sheen kinda sucked to. I guess you would have to be born a one percenter to have that avatar.


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## rewire (Jul 2, 2013)

Mich drew said:


> It seems many people don't understand what solidarity means anymore,as a trade, or as a nation. Too much of the what's in it for me only mentality.


 Most of us were not raised as socialists so the idea of rugged individualism is strong.


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## Mich drew (Mar 3, 2013)

Solidarity is not strictly a socialist idea. Did you ever play on a sports team,serve in the military,go to church,help your neighbors. These are what I understand solidarity to mean.


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## rewire (Jul 2, 2013)

Mich drew said:


> Solidarity is not strictly a socialist idea. Did you ever play on a sports team,serve in the military,go to church,help your neighbors. These are what I understand solidarity to mean.


 on a sports team not everyone gets to play and in the military not all are equal don't get me started on church ladys. Solidarity does not mean much to people because it has been bastardized by the unions to promote an agenda of us against them.


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## Mich drew (Mar 3, 2013)

Listen,there are radicals on both sides of the union/nonunion fence. I have worked on both sides myself. Nevertheless most people fall in the middle someplace. All of us are not against you.


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

robnj772 said:


> Haaaaaa haaaaaaa.
> 
> I just blew beer thru my nose.
> 
> ...


Didn't the IBEW train you while you were paid?


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

big2bird said:


> Didn't the IBEW train you while you were paid?


Yes but I wasn't brainwashed by them.

I can think for myself, form opinions.

While they were attempting to indoctrinate us into their world of lies and skewed views was when I first soured by them.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Mich drew said:


> Listen,there are radicals on both sides of the union/nonunion fence. I have worked on both sides myself. Nevertheless most people fall in the middle someplace. All of us are not against you.


It's redeeming to hear the voice of_ old school collectivism_ Mich, even though the definitionally challenged stampede their revisions in attempting to drown out the sentiment .....~CS~


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

robnj772 said:


> Yes but I wasn't brainwashed by them.
> 
> I can think for myself, form opinions.
> 
> While they were attempting to indoctrinate us into their world of lies and skewed views was when I first soured by them.


People like this are usually 
Terminated first and can't get along with others and sour a job. They usually end up in the non union sector or carving out a small shoestring business.


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

jrannis said:


> People like this are usually Terminated first and can't get along with others and sour a job. They usually end up in the non union sector or carving out a small shoestring business.


More lies and insults from the political Cletus .


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

WhitehouseRT said:


> Anyone familiar with a "salting" agreement??, and can explain details



Now let's get back on topic.

As organized labor struggles to remain relevant in the 21st century, unions are using ever more aggressive tactics. Salting is a tried and true method that construction unions continue to use to tilt the level playing field of America’s free market system.
Unions may use salting to achieve two different goals: either to “infiltrate” a non-union company in order to organize its workforce, or to goad a construction company into committing an unfair labor practice. The tactics haven’t changed much over the years because they’re effective and because bad public policy protects the methods used. Typically, a “salt” (so named because one or a few of them among your loyal workforce has the same effect as sodium chloride in your well) under the auspices of the local trade union, will visit the contractor’s headquarters to apply for a job, usually without revealing his or her union affiliation. While on the job the salt will sneak around the jobsite, ferreting out as much information about the company and its employees as possible.
While union organizers often publicly caution their salts never to commit sabotage, steal, lie, or cheat, as does one local of the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers, they are just as likely to provide tips on exactly how to go about committing these reprehensible acts. The same website advises salts to “get a list of all employees, or make one of your own. If you can, try to include home addresses and telephone numbers.” Where is the spy likely to find this information? In the company’s confidential personnel files, of course.
When applying for the job, the union says the mole should “avoid obvious references to Union jobs in your resume…. If it’s obvious that you’ve worked at a union company, be prepared to give a believable explanation as to why you’re applying for a non-Union job.”
Notice the accepted union plan is to provide plausible explanations and to purposefully omit relevant information; that is, to find ways around the truth.

Perhaps in acknowledgement of unions’ status among loyal, hardworking employees, the site also advises salts, “Don’t tell your co-workers that you’re a Union member or a salt. You want to be seen as being an ordinary worker” rather than someone whose goal is to boost union membership rolls and coffers instead of putting in a fair day’s work for a fair day’s pay.”
More typically, the union’s plan in a salting campaign is to make a case for an unfair labor practice charge against a target non-union company. That is, to harass the company and its management simply for being in the vast majority and choosing to remain an open shop. To do this, the union might send a member to apply for a job while making it obvious she or he is affiliated with the union. The applicant may wear a union shirt or hardhat sticker, may even state outright his intention or may include union organizing experience on her job application. If the applicant is not hired for any reason, the union takes its case to the National Labor Relations Board accusing the company of discrimination based on union membership.
Incredibly, these schemes are protected, despite common sense arguments against that protection. Why should an employer be forced to hire someone whose stated or covert objective is to work counter to the employer’s desires? Refusing to hire a salt would not infringe on current employees’ rights to organize. Nevertheless, given the current law, there are some measures non –union contractors can take to protect their open-shop status.
While not intended as legal advice to prevent salting (always consult a labor attorney) some companies have instituted policies that have met with varying degrees of success while not running afoul of union rights. Here are some ideas worth considering:
• Insist all employment applications be completed on site or in front of an officer of the company. This will prevent a salt from making dozens of copies, distributing them to fellow salts for completion, and flooding the company with union-affiliated applicants, increasing the potential for unfair labor practice accusations.
• Prohibit disclosure of information not requested. Make it clear that just like religious affiliation, ethnic background, etc., you do not want to know about an applicant’s “volunteer” union organizing work history.
• Make it a policy not to accept photocopied or faxed applications in place of the application.
• Keep accurate records of interviews so legitimate reasons for not hiring an applicant can be cited (acceptable reasons may include poor hygiene, insubordinate attitude, etc., which union lackeys may effect to ensure they don’t get the job.)


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

As perverted as this may seem, there is almost no company that is too small to become a target of a union, as long as there are at least two employees.

Even worse, adding to the already-lengthy trail of industrial carnage left by unions, American labor law gives today’s unions the right to destroy small companies under the guise of unionizing employees. This is particularly true in the construction industry where, all too often, unions and their unionized employers compete for work against non-union companies in a Darwinian death dance.

Very often, because of their costly benefits and often-underfunded pension plans, union contractors fail to get the work while non-union contractors get the work. This leaves union tradesmen unemployed–sitting “on the bench.”

With less construction being done these days, the high rate of unemployment among construction unions has led many of them to target non-union contractors for the sole purpose of unionizing them in order to get the work. In other words, because they already have enough unemployed members, they don’t want the workers–they want their work.

One of the more insidious ways that unions are allowed to unionize companies is through the practice of “salting.” Salting is the union tactic of sending one or more union members into a non-union company for the sole purpose of unionizing the company from within.

A union salt’s job is to infiltrate, as well as to spy on the company and its employees, to report back to the union bosses, as well as agitate and unionize the workers. Then, once the job of unionizing the company is finished, the salt typically moves on—often to the next vulnerable company.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Mich drew said:


> Solidarity is not strictly a socialist idea. Did *you ever play on a sports team*,*serve in the military*,*go to church,help your neighbors. *These are what I understand solidarity to mean.


AKA Miami Dolphins - Incognito?

AKA Edi Amman Dada?

AKA Jim Jones?

Just saying-:blink:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Mich drew said:


> It seems many people don't understand what solidarity means anymore,as a trade, or as a nation. Too much of the what's in it for me only mentality.


Funny, I find union guys all about 'what's in it for them and screw the contractor and customer'


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Mich drew said:


> Solidarity is not strictly a socialist idea. Did you ever play on a sports team,serve in the military,go to church,help your neighbors. These are what I understand solidarity to mean.


So when a salt tries to sneak into my team I take that very badly

I take it even worse when a salt tries to destroy the management of my team.

Open your eyes and just try for a minute to look at things from the other direction.




For instance has your path into the job site ever been physically blocked by a picket of merit shop workers?





I ask you to really consider that.


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## pete87 (Oct 22, 2012)

Mich drew said:


> Salting is when union members,with the blessing of the IBEW,go to work for a non union shop and try to get the non union electricians and or company to go union.






I like it . What do non union shops have to fear ?




Pete


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

pete87 said:


> I like it . What do non union shops have to fear ?


:laughing:


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

BBQ said:


> The three I worked with for months were simple average. They said nothing to anyone about the union before, during or after work.
> 
> They spent their time pushing the limits trying to draw a great company into breaking a labor law. What is pretty telling is they were unsuccessful in that or attracting the employees to go union.
> 
> When they 'came out' they tried to push the union at break and lunch. It was fun because we all told them to screw.


Your guys were just too dumb to realize they have been enslaved by a greedy corporation. If they had half a brain they'd know that it's far more noble to be a greedy union worker representing a greedy union. 

In short greedy corporation bad, greedy union good. :thumbsup:


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

Salting is just another form of union thuggery. They indoctrinate their members to think otherwise.


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

jrannis said:


> People like this are usually
> Terminated first and can't get along with others and sour a job. They usually end up in the non union sector or carving out a small shoestring business.


Bullsh!t. The ibew hasnt fired anyone ever. They just send them to a different contractor.


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

Goldagain said:


> Bullsh!t. The ibew hasnt fired anyone ever. They just send them to a different contractor.


That comment was meant as an attempted personal attack against me.

You know the type of thing the rest of us get banned for.

Jrannis must have naked pics of a mods wife or something along those lines.

His attacks,name calling,lies, thread derailments etc etc would have gotten most other people a lifetime ban.

And then he turns around and says this site is anti union. ... :sleeping:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

robnj772 said:


> That comment was meant as an attempted personal attack against me.
> 
> You know the type of thing the rest of us get banned for.
> 
> ...


You play the biggest 'victim' on this forum. 

You put out more insults than anyone and whine when others do the same.


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

BBQ said:


> You play the biggest 'victim' on this forum. You put out more insults than anyone and whine when others do the same.


It's been a while since I have gone off on someone .

Fwiw every time I insult you I get a warning from a mod ( cause you are a big fat crybaby) and a mailbox full of private messages telling me how much they hate you and to keep up the good work....... :lol:


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

robnj772 said:


> That comment was meant as an attempted personal attack against me.
> 
> You know the type of thing the rest of us get banned for.
> 
> ...


You don't really contribute anything about electrical work to this forum. You enjoy trolling.
We like to sit around and have a little fun with Union stuff and FOX news silly comments.
At the end of the day, we are all in the same boat, working for our families and trying to make money for ourselves and our shop. Be it ours or our employers.
You just kinda showed up here and get butt hurt about every comment.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

pete87 said:


> I like it . What do non union shops have to fear ?
> Pete


Workers who want decent wages and conditions.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Goldagain said:


> Bullsh!t. The ibew hasnt fired anyone ever. They just send them to a different contractor.


Incorrect. I can understand how you get these things wrong, since you just apparently make stuff up, but folks get ejected from the IBEW all the time.

However, since that is inconvenient for your fantasy land just ignore I mentioned it.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Goldagain said:


> Salting is just another form of union thuggery. They indoctrinate their members to think otherwise.


Posting lies about unions is just another form of anti-worker non union thuggery. They indoctrinate their workers to think that if they consider collective bargaining, they will be fired. :thumbsup:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

eejack said:


> Workers who want decent wages and conditions.


Strange, in my case the workers told the salts to screw.

I guess your one size fits all answers are off the mark.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

eejack said:


> Posting lies about unions is just another form of anti-worker non union thuggery. They indoctrinate their workers to think that if they consider collective bargaining, they will be fired. :thumbsup:


I am sure some do, when I worked open-shop, I worked for one skunk employer, treated almost every one equally bad, but he never mentioned union, same at the other open shops it was never mentioned to me. First contractor I worked for tried to go union as they wanted a large influx of men on and off, unfortunately the few men that were hired during the transition were very rough and talk sh*t to all the regulars. The owner backed down from going union.

You use the same tired argument you use defending the Liar in the WH. Post some positive union information.

I have found when open shop men, I have organized in find out the benny and pay difference all their union angst slides away. Never lost one man back to open shops


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

robnj772 said:


> Now let's get back on topic.
> 
> As organized labor struggles to remain relevant in the 21st century, unions are using ever more aggressive tactics. Salting is a tried and true method that construction unions continue to use to tilt the level playing field of America’s free market system.
> Unions may use salting to achieve two different goals: either to “infiltrate” a non-union company in order to organize its workforce, or to goad a construction company into committing an unfair labor practice. The tactics haven’t changed much over the years because they’re effective and because bad public policy protects the methods used. Typically, a “salt” (so named because one or a few of them among your loyal workforce has the same effect as sodium chloride in your well) under the auspices of the local trade union, will visit the contractor’s headquarters to apply for a job, usually without revealing his or her union affiliation. While on the job the salt will sneak around the jobsite, ferreting out as much information about the company and its employees as possible.
> ...


Huh?


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

Goldagain said:


> Bullsh!t. The ibew hasnt fired anyone ever. They just send them to a different contractor.


Contractors have the right to refuse anyone. Unions are just a pool of labor. If a contractor doesn't like the guy they sign the referral in a certain spot and send him packing. :whistling2:


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

OK, so back to the OP. Do you union boys honestly think salting is an honorable and honest thing to do?
If so great but I just can't see it.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

sbrn33 said:


> OK, so back to the OP. Do you union boys honestly think salting is an honorable and honest thing to do?
> If so great but I just can't see it.


Some do, some don't.

It depends on how it is handled.

I would not do it.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

cl219um said:


> Contractors have the right to refuse anyone. Unions are just a pool of labor. If a contractor doesn't like the guy they sign the referral in a certain spot and send him packing. :whistling2:


Which is not being fired, it is just being recycled.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

cl219um said:


> Huh?


I have to agree with you on that one.

Clearly he cut and pasted some gibberish.


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

sbrn33 said:


> OK, so back to the OP. Do you union boys honestly think salting is an honorable and honest thing to do?
> If so great but I just can't see it.


My local does not pay the difference in scale. Small local that cares about their community volunteering and donating to good causes from rehab houses to playgrounds... Brought this subject up at work and had some success stories where they brought in contractors to go signatory. Call me naive, but it seems to work here. See it from my side naysayers.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

cl219um said:


> My local does not pay the difference in scale. Small local that cares about their community volunteering and donating to good causes from rehab houses to playgrounds... Brought this subject up at work and had some success stories where they brought in contractors to go signatory. Call me naive, but it seems to work here. See it from my side naysayers.


If that is the case then why not work for free?
That is how I do the 3 Habitat Homes every year.
Salting is not the same as volunteer work. Even if the local tells you otherwise.


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

BBQ said:


> Which is not being fired, it is just being recycled.


Recycled out of town. To jobs where the cons just need a pulse. Big jobs. And you and I know as well that there are big jobs in the non union sector where they need manpower so badly that all you need is a heartbeat. T and m..


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

cl219um said:


> Recycled out of town. To jobs where the cons just need a pulse. Big jobs. And you and I know as well that there are big jobs in the non union sector where they need manpower so badly that all you need is a heartbeat. T and m..


What a goofy post.


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

sbrn33 said:


> If that is the case then why not work for free?
> That is how I do the 3 Habitat Homes every year.
> Salting is not the same as volunteer work. Even if the local tells you otherwise.


You think I was getting paid for voluntarily working community jobs in my home local? I was giving back to my community. For free.


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

sbrn33 said:


> What a goofy post.


Guess you haven't worked for any big non union contractors. What's goofy?


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

cl219um said:


> Guess you haven't worked for any big non union contractors. What's goofy?


He is a non union contractor


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

robnj772 said:


> He is a non union contractor


I said big. I figured that one out on my own.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

cl219um said:


> I said big. I figured that one out on my own.


What does big have to do with doing good acts without expecting something in return?
Salting is nothing like doing good acts of kindness. Honestly it is almost the exact opposite.


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

sbrn33 said:


> What does big have to do with doing good acts without expecting something in return?
> Salting is nothing like doing good acts of kindness. Honestly it is almost the exact opposite.


I was just showing why my experience in salting in a smaller local may have been different from others where the salts are jerks probably not working for their union. Probably trying to just work whether the consequences don't even help the local. I know there are some bad apples.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

cl219um said:


> Recycled out of town. To jobs where the cons just need a pulse. Big jobs. And you and I know as well that there are big jobs in the non union sector where they need manpower so badly that all you need is a heartbeat. T and m..


I do work for large non-union contractors and yes we sometimes employ those that are just labor. You know the big differance?

They are paid at the level they are worth and not same as the better workers.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

brian john said:


> Post some positive union information.


I post positive things all the time BJ and I am told I drink koolaid. There were honest answers in this thread and a lot of made up crap - I used to wonder why but as many times as I have asked I have never gotten an answer to that question so I made one up that works for me.

My guess is folks just like to hate. They enjoy being spiteful black hearted seething bowls of anger, they enjoy their stunted and wretched existence and when they see anyone doing well they lash out with impotent claws to try and scratch others down into their miserable pits of squalor.

I have come to pity them, I hope that somehow someway they find some amount of happiness eeks in through their iron gates of self loathing.

Why bother talking about my positive salting experiences, the low brow mob will shout it down spittle spewing fervor. 

Some folks cannot believe that 2 and 2 make 4, it matters not because even that simple truth causes their fragile hallucination to begin to crumble.

Enjoy.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

BBQ said:


> Which is not being fired, it is just being recycled.


In my local if a member is fired twice in 12 months ( not laid off ) they get reviewed and can be kicked out of the local.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

sbrn33 said:


> OK, so back to the OP. Do you union boys honestly think salting is an honorable and honest thing to do?
> If so great but I just can't see it.


If it is done properly, yes. You cannot talk about unions or organizing while working ( that is the contractor's time ) and you have to put in a good day's work. 

If you do it well the contractor can see good union labor in action and the workers can have the opportunity at breaks and after work to chat about unions etc.

Salts will go wrong - contractors freak out, workers start to panic about being fired, the union member may not be flexible enough to do the work the non union way or say things they shouldn't. 

We are expected to work at a high level while under scrutiny without any real schooling on how to do it, so when it goes wrong it usually goes very wrong. On the other hand, when it works out it usually brings a new contractor and new members into the local.


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

FWIW:

Salts aren't always JM from the halls. They can be losers who can't pass the test, but who walk into the hall and volunteer to be a salt. If they are successful into turning employees or causing financial damage, they will be accepted into the ranks without passing any test, or having the required hours in OJT.

It's one of the quickest ways into the union, but the Union won't tell you, that you get placed on the bottom of the list to work. Senior members get work first. 
Don't think you are going to get into any choice jobs either. They are reserved for the most senior guys, not newbies. 


So if you are reading this thread, and want to salt for the Union, just ask them first to put all their promises in writing, and get it signed. This way when they screw you, which they will, you might have a leg to stand on.

But, good luck getting it in writing from them.


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

BBQ said:


> I do work for large non-union contractors and yes we sometimes employ those that are just labor. You know the big differance?
> 
> They are paid at the level they are worth and not same as the better workers.


But probably full time. Where as a slow worker in union works seldom in his local. Mostly out on the road on the big jobs. If they choose to stay working, they go the distance. Guess they want to be an electrician. It's not easy being slow.


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

Dnkldorf said:


> FWIW:
> 
> Salts aren't always JM from the halls. They can be losers who can't pass the test, but who walk into the hall and volunteer to be a salt. If they are successful into turning employees or causing financial damage, they will be accepted into the ranks without passing any test, or having the required hours in OJT.
> 
> ...


That's a new one to me.


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

Well now eejack your propaganda changed my mind consider me your brother. Next time you stand outside a jobsite and harass guys trying to feed their families count me in! Hell maybe we can even push a non union contractors van and tools in the river together some day.

Solidarity!



Tool.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Goldagain said:


> Well now eejack your propaganda changed my mind consider me your brother. Next time you stand outside a jobsite and harass guys trying to feed their families count me in! Hell maybe we can even push a non union contractors van and tools in the river together some day.
> 
> Solidarity!
> 
> ...


Do you want to know why no one actually takes you seriously?

You asked a question and got an honest answer. My answer contained neither rancor nor insults.

You then respond with some load of crap about harassing people and pushing vans in rivers. It is like a medical condition, like tourettes only you spew fantastical nonsense out your piehole. You cannot help it apparently. 

I suspect, with patience and lots of therapy, you might be able to one day rejoin polite society. Perhaps you can find the help you need here...
http://www.njmentalhealthcares.org/

Be well.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Dnkldorf said:


> FWIW:
> 
> Salts aren't always JM from the halls. They can be losers who can't pass the test, but who walk into the hall and volunteer to be a salt. If they are successful into turning employees or causing financial damage, they will be accepted into the ranks without passing any test, or having the required hours in OJT.
> 
> ...


I am not entirely certain this is true - I have never heard of anyone getting in that way in my local, though I don't know what every other local does.

If it is true, then that might explain a bit of the ill will, because even a seasoned journeyman has a difficult time doing a good salt, let alone someone who is otherwise unqualified to become a member.

The part about seniority and choice jobs is entirely false however - all locals work off of a referral list that is first in first out, when you get laid off you sign the list on the bottom regardless of seniority.


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## SkinsNation (Oct 23, 2013)

I need to go grab another bag of popcorn


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

eejack said:


> Do you want to know why no one actually takes you seriously?
> 
> You asked a question and got an honest answer. My answer contained neither rancor nor insults.
> 
> ...


So, were not brothers?


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Goldagain said:


> So, were not brothers?


If it helps you with your counseling I am there for you.


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## rayrocksweet (Nov 12, 2012)

eejack said:


> The part about seniority and choice jobs is entirely false however - all locals work off of a referral list that is first in first out, when you get laid off you sign the list on the bottom regardless of seniority.


 
x2 they cannot skip members on the books. My hall is always fighting suits from its members (yes from its OWN members) that claim to have been skipped over for a job. The hall always wins because of its meticulous book keeping


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

rayrocksweet said:


> x2 they cannot skip members on the books. My hall is always fighting suits from its members (yes from its OWN members) that claim to have been skipped over for a job. The hall always wins because of its meticulous book keeping


Yep, bookkeeping. Yes, yes that what it is.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

sbrn33 said:


> Yep, bookkeeping. Yes, yes that what it is.


It is easier to pretend a comforting lie than accept a simple truth. :thumbsup:


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## rewire (Jul 2, 2013)

rayrocksweet said:


> x2 they cannot skip members on the books. My hall is always fighting suits from its members (yes from its OWN members) that claim to have been skipped over for a job. The hall always wins because of its meticulous book keeping


 call outs happen. The contractor pays the guy foreman pay he can reach into the book. the contractor can put in a ten man call and spin nine to get his guy. The BA can spin at the hall.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

eejack said:


> It is easier to pretend a comforting lie than accept a simple truth. :thumbsup:


For some it is easier to just deny any negative aspects of the club they are in.


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

eejack said:


> I am not entirely certain this is true - I have never heard of anyone getting in that way in my local, though I don't know what every other local does.


It came from the mouth of the guy who salted.




eejack said:


> If it is true, then that might explain a bit of the ill will, because even a seasoned journeyman has a difficult time doing a good salt, let alone someone who is otherwise unqualified to become a member.


It's not like they made them full JM. They got "promoted" to 3rd or 4th yr apprentice. As far as a qualified member.....isn't payin dues enough for them?




eejack said:


> The part about seniority and choice jobs is entirely false however - all locals work off of a referral list that is first in first out, when you get laid off you sign the list on the bottom regardless of seniority.


In theory, huh?


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Some salts i've had the pleasure to work with have been the nicest people i've met in this trade, very informative and updated as well. In fact, one took me out to lunch when his rep came to town, they spent a lotta time and effort flattering me with much ado, most impressive, etc etc ad nasuem....

Little did i know they wanted to take me over to the dark side, where electricians assume massive amounts of lumber in their posteriors sitting on some bench sort of device, here's a pix of 'em....









:jester:~CS~


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Dnkldorf said:


> It came from the mouth of the guy who salted.
> 
> It's not like they made them full JM. They got "promoted" to 3rd or 4th yr apprentice. As far as a qualified member.....isn't payin dues enough for them?


No, most locals have an interview and testing process, then apprenticeship. In my local only a full journeyman is allowed to salt and usually one with a bit of experience. Salting with someone who doesn't know what unions are about and would not otherwise qualify through the interview/testing seems completely stupid. I realize someone told you they did that but I really have my doubts as it makes no sense at all.



Dnkldorf said:


> In theory, huh?


No, in fact. A local's referral system is open to scrutiny, specifically for the very reason you bring up.


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

eejack said:


> No, most locals have an interview and testing process, then apprenticeship. In my local only a full journeyman is allowed to salt and usually one with a bit of experience. Salting with someone who doesn't know what unions are about and would not otherwise qualify through the interview/testing seems completely stupid. I realize someone told you they did that but I really have my doubts as it makes no sense at all. No, in fact. A local's referral system is open to scrutiny, specifically for the very reason you bring up.



Yes, well your local is just a pillar of honesty and integrity..... :lol:

http://www.northjersey.com/news/crime_courts/Paramus_union_officials_arrested.html?page=all

Lots of unemployment at 164 I see


https://www.facebook.com/pages/Unemployed-IBEW-Local-164/36996780303122


Nice to see where your dues go


http://www.followthemoney.org/database/topcontributor.phtml?u=19627&y=0


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## mr hands (Sep 15, 2013)

eejack said:


> Basically the hall asks one of its members to go to work for a non union contractor *and pays the difference in wages*..


What local is it you work in??? LOL


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

mr hands said:


> What local is it you work in??? LOL


#164 Jersey City NJ


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## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

I'm pretty sure salting is what goes on when two union brothers love each other very very much and meet up in a bathroom stall after the union hall meeting is over.


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

Just how is it that some posts got deleted and not this entire thread?


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

robnj772 said:


> Just how is it that some posts got deleted and not this entire thread?


Racism


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

robnj772 said:


> Just how is it that some posts got deleted and not this entire thread?


probably cause much of what you say is offensive to mothers and people with morrals. your kinda a d bag:no:


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