# Grounding pigtail screw has to be green?



## Golden Arc (Apr 28, 2008)

Is this a code?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Tim Crimson said:


> Is this a code?


Only if it's on a device or in a panel for bonding.

250.28(B), 250.126 and 406.9(B)(1)


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

Looks like 480sparky has this one covered.


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## Golden Arc (Apr 28, 2008)

Maybe its the inspectors discretion but I had a box that was full of mud so I had to use a tapcon and the boss said no can do has to be a green screw.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Tim Crimson said:


> Maybe its the inspectors discretion but I had a box that was full of mud so I had to use a tapcon and the boss said no can do has to be a green screw.


It doesn't have to be green, but it can only be used for the purpose of grounding, and have not less than tho thread engaged in the metal of the box. 250.8(A)(5) and (6).


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

Tim Crimson said:


> Maybe its the inspectors discretion but I had a box that was full of mud so I had to use a tapcon and the boss said no can do has to be a green screw.


The tapcon's threads aren't fine enough to be used for grounding. 480 covered the basics.


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## Golden Arc (Apr 28, 2008)

InPhase277 said:


> The tapcon's threads aren't fine enough to be used for grounding. 480 covered the basics.




I wonder what that has to do with anything?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Tim Crimson said:


> I wonder what that has to do with anything?


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## redbeard43 (Mar 20, 2009)

Many Many Many years ago , I used the anchor from the box mount to ground the wire (ie toggle bolt), and at that time the boss told be that when the box was removed for some reason, the ground had to stay intact with the box. (note to self: designated hole for the ground screw). If i dont have a green screw, i use a self tap screw with a green pigtail anchored to the box only and securely.


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

Tim Crimson said:


> I wonder what that has to do with anything?


The screw that is used for grounding must be threaded into the box or fastened with a nut, not connected to the box with only pressure from an anchor in the wall.

As Ken pointed out take a look at 250.8 for connection of grounding and bonding equipment.

Chris


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

Tim Crimson said:


> I wonder what that has to do with anything?


different threads


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## Adam12 (May 28, 2008)

If you wanted to, you could use a drywall or wood screw, perfectly legal though not recommended.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Adam12 said:


> If you wanted to, you could use a drywall or wood screw, perfectly legal though not recommended.


Um, no.....250.8(A)(5) and (6).


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## Jeff000 (Jun 18, 2008)

I need to buy an old NEC book so I know what code you guys are talking about, lol. 
I often just use a cut 10-32 or 8-32 if the ground screw is missing. but in the nitty gritty have used a 10x1 screw before too.


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## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

ok i know your not supposed to use self tappers but what do you think about the fine thead buildex self tappers? i say they are legal. i also believe that while not lsgal a regular old self tapper does just as good as a green screw but what do i know im just a dumb ol electrician.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

mattsilkwood said:


> ok i know your not supposed to use self tappers but what do you think about the fine thead buildex self tappers? i say they are legal. i also believe that while not lsgal a regular old self tapper does just as good as a green screw but what do i know im just a dumb ol electrician.


Those buildex self tappers are fine thread, so, as long as at least two threads engage the metal of the box, then you are in compliance with the code. But I agree, a regular self tapper is probably just as good as any, but somebody somewhere probably used one and somebody got killed, so now we have a code.


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## nakulak (Dec 10, 2007)

mattsilkwood said:


> ok i know your not supposed to use self tappers but what do you think about the fine thead buildex self tappers? i say they are legal. i also believe that while not lsgal a regular old self tapper does just as good as a green screw but what do i know im just a dumb ol electrician.


course thread screws come loose, that is why the code is specific.


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## Jeff000 (Jun 18, 2008)

nakulak said:


> course thread screws come loose, that is why the code is specific.


The only time I have used screw that didnt come with whatever I am installing is stip fixtures in parkaids. I would use a 10x1 through where the ground screw should be and into the grounding nut of the of the ipex box in the slab. This is a nut that is for an 8-32, there is no way its backing out. 
But I understand this is not always the case. 

With said fixtures I would be surprised if even an 8-32 would have more then one thread into the meter they are so paper thin and cheap.


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## Golden Arc (Apr 28, 2008)

So what about the 4 square boxes that dont have the little indented hole specifically for the ground. What would be the best way to ground them if they are surrounded by concrete mud.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Tim Crimson said:


> So what about the 4 square boxes that dont have the little indented hole specifically for the ground. What would be the best way to ground them if they are surrounded by concrete mud.


Install the pigtail before the box is installed in the mud.


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## nakulak (Dec 10, 2007)

or take a small drill bit and drill behind the location where you are putting the screw, then install it (or tap first if necessary)


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## Adam12 (May 28, 2008)

480sparky said:


> Um, no.....250.8(A)(5) and (6).


Um, yes, as long as its not a sheet metal screw.


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

Adam12 said:


> Um, yes, as long as its not a sheet metal screw.


Um- NO like was stated 250.8
Clearly states MACHINE SCREW
wood screws ,sheet metal screws and sheetrock screws are not Machine screws.

Must be a machine screw type of fastener or a listed pressure connector
aka - ground clip.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Adam12 said:


> Um, yes, as long as its not a sheet metal screw.


Or a drywall or wood screw, which was what my response was to.

250.8(A)(5) and (6) state that there must be two threads in contact with the metal for it to be a legal. I have yet to see either a wood, tapcon, drywall or sheet metal screw with fine enough threads to satisfy either code section.


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## Adam12 (May 28, 2008)

480sparky said:


> Or a drywall or wood screw, which was what my response was to.
> 
> 250.8(A)(5) and (6) state that there must be two threads in contact with the metal for it to be a legal. I have yet to see either a wood, tapcon, drywall or sheet metal screw with fine enough threads to satisfy either code section.


Right, but still wouldnt be illegal if it satisfied the code requirement. According to the 05


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Adam12 said:


> Right, but still wouldnt be illegal if it satisfied the code requirement. According to the 05


I'm confused. You're saying a drywall screw or tapcon is legal by the '05?


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

Adam12 said:


> Um, yes, as long as its not a sheet metal screw.


I do believe I owe Adam an apology.( provided we are not talking about this issue based solely on the 2008) He is talking about the loop hole the NEC created. In the 2005 it only specifies sheet metal screws.

From the 2005 NEC :
250.8 Connection of Grounding and Bonding Equipment. Grounding conductors and bonding jumpers shall be connected by exothermic welding, listed pressure connectors, listed clamps, or other listed means. Connection devices or fittings that depend solely on solder shall not be used. Sheet metal screws shall not be used to connect grounding conductors or connection devices to enclosures. 


If under the 2005 it would be OK by code ,but.. what does the AHJ think This is why the code making panel made the clarification in 2008


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

manchestersparky said:


> I do believe I owe Adam an apology.( provided we are not talking about this issue based solely on the 2008) He is talking about the loop hole the NEC created. In the 2005 it only specifies sheet metal screws...........


I don't see any loophole. Unless drywall screws, tapcons and wood screws are listed for grounding, they're not allowed.


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## Adam12 (May 28, 2008)

manchestersparky said:


> I do believe I owe Adam an apology.( provided we are not talking about this issue based solely on the 2008) He is talking about the loop hole the NEC created. In the 2005 it only specifies sheet metal screws.
> 
> From the 2005 NEC :
> 250.8 Connection of Grounding and Bonding Equipment. Grounding conductors and bonding jumpers shall be connected by exothermic welding, listed pressure connectors, listed clamps, or other listed means. Connection devices or fittings that depend solely on solder shall not be used. Sheet metal screws shall not be used to connect grounding conductors or connection devices to enclosures.
> ...


On the money Manchester! :thumbsup:


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

Maybe Loop hole was the incorrect term. Maybe I should have said the 
non- specified term that some electricians used to argue the fact that the wood screw they installed was OK by code.
It must have become an issue why else would the code making panel spend time to clarify the article to the extent they have.

It seems that ground screws are not required to be listed but ground clips are? 
The 2008 UL White book does not list ground screws. Under the section KDER it does mention ground clips but not ground screws. ( the 2008 NEC Handbook commentary for section 250.8 also says ground screws do not need to be listed but clip do)

I can't imagine any AHJ worth their salt allowing a wood screw to be used for grounding


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## Golden Arc (Apr 28, 2008)

raider1 said:


> The screw that is used for grounding must be threaded into the box or fastened with a nut, not connected to the box with only pressure from an anchor in the wall.
> 
> As Ken pointed out take a look at 250.8 for connection of grounding and bonding equipment.
> 
> Chris


So it has to be threaded into the box and have fine threads?


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

The 2008 clarified this - Yes it must be a fine thread, threaded into the box with at least two complete threads.


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## Golden Arc (Apr 28, 2008)

If your trying to ground a four square box that has a masonry mud ring its nearly impossible unless you use a ground screw that has self taping threads. If you use just the plain screws you'll either strip the threads or strip the hole out. In the end a tapcon(if theres mud behind it) or a 5/16 should be fine as long as it makes contact with the four square box. This code is useless.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Tim Crimson said:


> If your trying to ground a four square box that has a masonry mud ring its nearly impossible unless you use a ground screw that has self taping threads. If you use just the plain screws you'll either strip the threads or strip the hole out. In the end a tapcon(if theres mud behind it) or a 5/16 should be fine as long as it makes contact with the four square box. This code is useless.


 
It would be _so simple_ to install a ground screw and pigtail *before* the box is set in the wall. Lack for foresight does not allow you to ignore the rules.


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

Boxes set in masonary and no ground screw installed?
What I used to do was to take my scratch awl and tap out as much mortar from the ground screw hole as possible. Then I would get out my strippers with the built in bolt cutter. I would then cut off some of the green ground screw,being positive to leave the code required minimum of 2 threads. Worked every time. Once you figure out how much to take off it's easy.
Then I had a code compliant installation.


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## Golden Arc (Apr 28, 2008)

480sparky said:


> It would be _so simple_ to install a ground screw and pigtail *before* the box is set in the wall. Lack for foresight does not allow you to ignore the rules.



I didnt install the boxes.


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

Tim Crimson said:


> I didnt install the boxes.


Regardless this still does not grant a waiver from the code. ground screws must be used. They can be installed still, just takes some know how and the desire to the job correct rather then "hacking" it in.
Yes I said Hacking it in ! Tapcons and self tapping screws are hack


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Tim Crimson said:


> I didnt install the boxes.


 
I didn't install this either:







































But it's fixed now.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

480sparky said:


> I didn't install this either:


Is that an SE cable or triplex pulled into the conduit, or did someone pull a bare neutral?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

InPhase277 said:


> Is that an SE cable or triplex pulled into the conduit, or did someone pull a bare neutral?


Bare noodle. Common back in the 60s.


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## Golden Arc (Apr 28, 2008)

480sparky said:


> I didn't install this either:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Uhh this isnt a remodel.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Tim Crimson said:


> Uhh this isnt a remodel.


What, your box in the concrete wall? Neither is a panel swap.

I don't understand why that makes any difference. Compliance with the Code is required, no matter what it takes to obtain compliance. Whether it's taking half an hour to get a ground screw properly attached to a 4sq box imbedded in a masonry wall, or completely redoing an entire house because it was roughed in incorrectly, the end is the same regardless of the means necessary to get there.


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## KayJay (Jan 20, 2008)

Tim Crimson said:


> In the end a tapcon(if theres mud behind it) or a 5/16 should be fine as long as it makes contact with the four square box. This code is useless.


What about that blue non-conductive coating on the Tapcons?
Even though the wire is pinched between the box and the tapcon head, there are no threads at all for about the first 1/4" under the head, more than the thickness of the 4 SQ box material itself.

BTW, I just put my meter on a 3/16" X 1-1/4" Tapcon between the bottom of the head and the threaded shank… no continuity at all.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

KayJay said:


> What about that blue non-conductive coating on the Tapcons?
> Even though the wire is pinched between the box and the tapcon head, there are no threads at all for about the first 1/4" under the head, more than the thickness of the 4 SQ box material itself.......


So if there's no threads where the box would be, how do you propose to get two full threads in contact with the box?


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## KayJay (Jan 20, 2008)

480sparky said:


> So if there's no threads where the box would be, how do you propose to get two full threads in contact with the box?


Exactly.


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## Golden Arc (Apr 28, 2008)

480sparky said:


> What, your box in the concrete wall? Neither is a panel swap.
> 
> I don't understand why that makes any difference. Compliance with the Code is required, no matter what it takes to obtain compliance. Whether it's taking half an hour to get a ground screw properly attached to a 4sq box imbedded in a masonry wall, or completely redoing an entire house because it was roughed in incorrectly, the end is the same regardless of the means necessary to get there.


Mine is a situation where the people at the company you worked for should have done things the right way instead of some unknown person that was there before you.


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## Golden Arc (Apr 28, 2008)

KayJay said:


> What about that blue non-conductive coating on the Tapcons?
> Even though the wire is pinched between the box and the tapcon head, there are no threads at all for about the first 1/4" under the head, more than the thickness of the 4 SQ box material itself.
> 
> BTW, I just put my meter on a 3/16" X 1-1/4" Tapcon between the bottom of the head and the threaded shank… no continuity at all.


What about the green on the ground screw?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Tim Crimson said:


> Mine is a situation where the people at the company you worked for should have done things the right way instead of some unknown person that was there before you.


That still doesn't relieve you of the requirements.



Tim Crimson said:


> What about the green on the ground screw?


It doesn't need to be green.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

I used (2) 1900 boxes (4x4) today.. one deep and one shallow.. anyone know why the deep box has a raised threaded hole for the ground screw and the shallow had a ground screw hole that is not raised??


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Black4Truck said:


> I used (2) 1900 boxes (4x4) today.. one deep and one shallow.. anyone know why the deep box has a raised threaded hole for the ground screw and the shallow had a ground screw hole that is not raised??


Design choice by the manufacturer.


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## KayJay (Jan 20, 2008)

Tim Crimson said:


> What about the green on the ground screw?


Just for the sake of parity, I dumped out a box of actual green 10/32 hex head grounding screws I have and randomly tested about 20 or so of them at various points between the head and shank. They all showed continuity without even applying any pressure to the test leads, so apparently the green coated screws are conductive before they even make any contact at all with the threaded holes in the box.


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## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

Tim Crimson said:


> What about the green on the ground screw?


 i may be wrong on this one but i thought the green was a dye not a coating. comments?


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## Toronto Sparky (Apr 12, 2009)

tech screws rule


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

Black4Truck said:


> I used (2) 1900 boxes (4x4) today.. one deep and one shallow.. anyone know why the deep box has a raised threaded hole for the ground screw and the shallow had a ground screw hole that is not raised??



Same manufacturer?


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Raco and Steel City make both types. I bet one of them was older than the other (raised) one.


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## itsunclebill (Jan 16, 2007)

It (hopefully) shouldn't be too hard to figure out that if a box is mounted against a solid wall, attempting to seat a ground screw through a hole on a flush bottom box might result in stripped threads. A good electrician would drill a hole to allow the ground screw to seat properly in a flat bottom box. That the boxes now have a raised spot for the ground screw should be an indication of the work quality that caused the change.

None of the details required for ground screws is brain surgery. Given the thickness of a standard metal J-box or device box you have to have a 32 thread per inch or finer thread to have 2 full threads in contact with the box. In thinner walled boxes, like some panels, the threaded holes are punched so that there is a "hub" produced that effectively thickens the threaded area to gain the 2 threads minimum, and why some have instructions requiring the screws be installed before the panel is installed against a solid wall.

Finally, although the ground screws on devices need to be green, there are always uninformed inspectors. Depending on how much time I have to burn arguing the matter, a green sharpie can solve immediate problems.


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## Pierre Belarge (Feb 3, 2007)

*Ground Screws are not the only grounding means*

1. Ground screws that connect the equipment ground conductor to a metallic box are not required to be green as per the NEC, it may be a local law.

NOTE:
Green ground screws are not listed as suitable for grounding purposes, they are not listed at all. 

2. Ground screws are not the only means for bonding the EGC to the metallic box.
There are also "Ground Clips" available.

NOTE:
Ground Clips ARE listed as suitable for grounding purposes.


The 2008 NEC has done an adequate job of describing the permitted and non-permitted methods/means of bonding to enclosures/boxes. 
Bonding is important enough that installers should not be looking for alternate methods that have not been tested and therefore are unknown entities in regards to whether or not those installations will perform as necessary.


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## orelco (Jun 25, 2009)

*"GREEN " grounding screws*

*Article 250.119* " Identification of Equipment Grounding Conductor" Require that the outer cover of the wire(when used) most be green or green with yellow strips.

*Article 250.126* "Identification of Wiring Device Terminals" Require a no readily removable "GREEN terminal Screw and also a "GREEN" terminal nut.

I don't see any problem with a "GREEN" ground screw for the bonding jumper conductor.

If you want to be so technical, do you homework WHY the bonding jumper screw must be 10/32 and not 10/24 on a 1/16 gage metal box


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

orelco said:


> *Article 250.119* " Identification of Equipment Grounding Conductor" Require that the outer cover of the wire(when used) most be green or green with yellow strips.
> 
> *Article 250.126* "Identification of Wiring Device Terminals" Require a no readily removable "GREEN terminal Screw and also a "GREEN" terminal nut.
> 
> I don't see any problem with a "GREEN" ground screw for the bonding jumper conductor.


250.126 is only addressing screws on devices, i.e., receptacles and switches. There is no requirement that a screw that attaches a bonding jumper to a box be green. 



> If you want to be so technical, do you homework WHY the bonding jumper screw must be 10/32 and not 10/24 on a 1/16 gage metal box


This was addressed in the first few replies to this thread.


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## mikeg_05 (Jan 1, 2009)

nakulak said:


> or take a small drill bit and drill behind the location where you are putting the screw, then install it (or tap first if necessary)


Exactly, if your too much of a knuckle head to grab a drill bit and drill enough of the wood out or concrete too allow the the ground screw to seat properly then grab a broom and start sweeping.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

Pierre Belarge said:


> 1. Ground screws that connect the equipment ground conductor to a metallic box are not required to be green as per the NEC, it may be a local law.
> 
> NOTE:
> Green ground screws are not listed as suitable for grounding purposes, they are not listed at all.
> ...


 Boy do I hate those G-clips.


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## azmaster (Aug 6, 2009)

gust testing my message availability.


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