# Bosch Brushless



## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

99cents said:


> If you believe the propaganda from Bosch, it was never their intention to be first out the gate with brushless technology. They wanted to get the engineering right. Of course, this could be interpreted as meaning that Milwaukee caught them with their pants down and now Bosch is playing catch up.
> 
> Regardless, the Fuel line for me has been like a cheap sports car - it's fun to drive until the wheels fall off. Quality and engineering seems to be lacking.
> 
> I will be making the switch away from Milwaukee. I don't have a lot of experience with Bosch except for a laser level and an old fashioned corded drill. What is your experience with Bosch in terms of quality and is it worth the wait?


Bosch has always made great tools ! I currently have a corded jig saw , corded deck screw gun , two ( old ) 12 volt cordless drills , one corded sds plus rotary hammer , one big sds max rotary hammer . I think that's it , lol ? Most of this stuff was purchased back in the 90's and is still going strong . The cordless drills are backups to my backups , but still work good as screw guns . I have nothing bad to say about Bosch tools .


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## RHWilks (Jul 14, 2012)

I purchased the Bosch cube radio! Awesome! I don't have anything else Bosch. I might switch over next year, when it is time to replace the Dewalt combo kit I use now.


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## randas (Dec 14, 2008)

Looks like they put a plastic chuck on it. All yours boys

And damm, 600in-lb rating. If that dosent get you excited I don't know what will. lol


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## AFElectrician (Jun 14, 2011)

I have the 12v Impact with the 360 light ring, the powerbox radio, and the Multi-tool. I haven't had any problems with any of it! The multi-tool is great around my house, and I use the impact all day everyday at work. The 1.5 ah batteries lasted me about two days. Also, it fits perfectly in tool belt! The radio is powerful and gives out great sound and the outlets on the side work great for charging batteries if you need too.


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

99cents said:


> If you believe the propaganda from Bosch, it was never their intention to be first out the gate with brushless technology. They wanted to get the engineering right. Of course, this could be interpreted as meaning that Milwaukee caught them with their pants down and now Bosch is playing catch up.
> 
> Regardless, the Fuel line for me has been like a cheap sports car - it's fun to drive until the wheels fall off. Quality and engineering seems to be lacking.
> 
> I will be making the switch away from Milwaukee. I don't have a lot of experience with Bosch except for a laser level and an old fashioned corded drill. What is your experience with Bosch in terms of quality and is it worth the wait?


ALthough I still have my DeWalt, I went with a Bosch brushed lithium ion.
So far I have no problems with this drill.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

randas said:


> Looks like they put a plastic chuck on it. All yours boys
> 
> And damm, 600in-lb rating. If that dosent get you excited I don't know what will. lol


So tell me, wise guy, who makes a metal chuck any more with the possible exception of Metabo?

And where are you getting the specs on Bosch brushless? I can't seem to find them.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> So tell me, wise guy, who makes a metal chuck any more with the possible exception of Metabo?


:blink:


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

Bosch Brute Tough always has a metal chuck. Anything else is the cheaper "compact" and more for homeowners.


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## FastFokker (Sep 18, 2012)

Congrats on finally joining the brushless party, Bosch!

Fashionably late or just late?


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## the-apprentice (Jun 11, 2012)

milwaukee has metal chucks..and more torque then 600 in,lbs


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## svh19044 (Jul 1, 2008)

Which tools in the FUEL line do you really have? :no:

It's honestly like you have some kind of personal vendetta against them, and it's really odd behavior, almost to the point of sounding made up.

I've got to say, the socket adapter on the 18v BOSCH is impact is pretty damn cool though. Unfortunately, it's been pending release for the past freaking year. Some day it will actually come out.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

svh19044 said:


> Which tools in the FUEL line do you really have? :no:
> 
> It's honestly like you have some kind of personal vendetta against them, and it's really odd behavior, almost to the point of sounding made up.


He's got the Fuel with the plastic chuck


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## FastFokker (Sep 18, 2012)

I never liked Milwaukee either, until I bought one.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

99cents said:


> If you believe the propaganda from Bosch, it was never their intention to be first out the gate with brushless technology. They wanted to get the engineering right. Of course, this could be interpreted as meaning that Milwaukee caught them with their pants down and now Bosch is playing catch up.
> 
> Regardless, the Fuel line for me has been like a cheap sports car - it's fun to drive until the wheels fall off. Quality and engineering seems to be lacking.
> 
> I will be making the switch away from Milwaukee. I don't have a lot of experience with Bosch except for a laser level and an old fashioned corded drill. What is your experience with Bosch in terms of quality and is it worth the wait?


I'm still using my M-18 stuff and have not tried the fuel line yet.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

the-apprentice said:


> milwaukee has metal chucks..and more torque then 600 in,lbs


:thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

HARRY304E said:


> I'm still using my M-18 stuff and have not tried the fuel line yet.


It just depends what you using them for. I've got both the regular M18 and the Fuel M18. The regular one seldom gets used anymore..... longer run time and about 20-30% more power. Same with the M12 impacts.


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## FastFokker (Sep 18, 2012)

Same. I only use my regular m12 when I go to the truck for something and then need to drill something and have left my fuel m12 in the house. RARE. Fuel is a major difference.

Again though, I think brushless of any popular brand will be good. Not like Milwaukee has an edge, except for being one of the first to market and pushing heavily on marketing/advertising.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> He's got the Fuel with the plastic chuck


Have you taken that drill apart to see what's inside? Neither have I but, when my Fuel chuck crapped out, it sure didn't feel like metal failure.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

99cents said:


> Have you taken that drill apart to see what's inside? Neither have I but, when my Fuel chuck crapped out, it sure didn't feel like metal failure.


What other Milwaukee tools do you own and what kind of bad experiences have you had with them? Spill it!!!:laughing::laughing:


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

99cents said:


> Have you taken that drill apart to see what's inside? Neither have I but, when my Fuel chuck crapped out, it sure didn't feel like metal failure.


I've taken the fuel hammerdrill chuck apart. Besides the rear piece it _is_ all metal. Mine also failed, I used to have pictures posted until I deleted them from my imageshack account. I replaced it with the fuel drill driver chuck which has been fairing much better.

Also, I'd jump on a bosch brute tough brushless line in a heart beat if I still had to supply my own powertools. My Bosch Ni-Cads were beasts.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

svh19044 said:


> Which tools in the FUEL line do you really have? :no:
> 
> It's honestly like you have some kind of personal vendetta against them, and it's really odd behavior, almost to the point of sounding made up.
> 
> I've got to say, the socket adapter on the 18v BOSCH is impact is pretty damn cool though. Unfortunately, it's been pending release for the past freaking year. Some day it will actually come out.


I have had five Milwaukee tools go to the repair shop that were all less than a year old - a Fuel drill, a driver, two Hackzalls and a Subscanner. Each tool was there for anywhere from one to three weeks. That's a lot of time to manage without proper tools. To NOT switch to another brand name would be odd behaviour.


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

Found 'em. What I was circling is where there were signs of wear like it was rubbing on something. The chuck just wouldn't stay tight anymore, or when opening up would ratchet when trying to close it.

Again I replaced this chuck with the M18 Fuel Drill/Driver chuck (cost me like 30 bucks) and I've had no issues so far, and I find less debris/dust gets inside when drilling overhead. 

EDIT: Sorry I didn't realize the pictures would be this huge.

Uploaded with ImageShack.com

Uploaded with ImageShack.com

Uploaded with ImageShack.com


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

Here are the specs on the Milwaukee impacts. Maybe someone could come up with specs on the other brands

M12 Impact 1000 in. lbs.
M12 Fuel Impact 1200 in. lbs.
M18 Impact 1400 in. lbs.
M18 Fuel Impact 1600 in. lbs.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

The typical Dewalt 18V impact gun has 1,330 in/lbs of torque.

I would like to see it go neck and neck with the M12 Fuel impact gun.


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## the-apprentice (Jun 11, 2012)

the m18 fuel impact has 1600 i think

i have an m18 hammer drill, and an m18 fuel impact among a ton of other milwaukee tools, they seem to work well


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

wendon said:


> Here are the specs on the Milwaukee impacts. Maybe someone could come up with specs on the other brands
> 
> M12 Impact 1000 in. lbs.
> M12 Fuel Impact 1200 in. lbs.
> ...


Bosch seems to use Neuton Meters, which make no sense to me and I live in a metric country. Even if I do the conversion, it still makes no sense.

Regardless, I don't think Bosch has released the specs on their brushless line. If they have, I can't find them.


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## randas (Dec 14, 2008)

99cents said:


> So tell me, wise guy, who makes a metal chuck any more with the possible exception of Metabo?





99cents said:


> I have had five Milwaukee tools go to the repair shop that were all less than a year old - a Fuel drill, a driver, two Hackzalls and a Subscanner. Each tool was there for anywhere from one to three weeks. That's a lot of time to manage without proper tools. To NOT switch to another brand name would be odd behaviour.


I love it when someone gets caught up in a lie. If you owned a Milwaukee drill you would know it had a metal chuck


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## the-apprentice (Jun 11, 2012)

randas said:


> I love it when someone gets caught up in a lie. If you owned a Milwaukee drill you would know it had a metal chuck


my m12 drill driver has a metal chuck too


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## randas (Dec 14, 2008)

99cents said:


> Regardless, I don't think Bosch has released the specs on their brushless line. If they have, I can't find them.


http://www.boschtools.com/Products/Tools/Pages/BoschProductDetail.aspx?pid=DDS182-01#specs


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## FastFokker (Sep 18, 2012)

Good thing they took their time designing this to make it look like a cheap homeowner version.

Not saying it is, whatsoever, just looks like it.


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

randas said:


> http://www.boschtools.com/Products/Tools/Pages/BoschProductDetail.aspx?pid=DDS182-01#specs


It's the brushless compact. There's no point in comparing one brand's light duty drill to another's heavy duty drill.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

FastFokker said:


> Good thing they took their time designing this to make it look like a cheap homeowner version.
> 
> Not saying it is, whatsoever, just looks like it.


Yeah, I don't get it. They're calling their new brushless line "CORE" but this looks like a DIY special.


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

Compact Brushed









Compact Brushless











Brute Tough Brushed










I would expect their Brute Tough Brushless will look similar and put out equal or greater numbers than what's out on the market. Bosch almost always is the overachiever in the specs department.


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## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

I highly recommend Bosch in particular because of the build quality, especially if you get a "Brute Tough" drill.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

Bosch brushless 600 in. lbs. of torque
Milwaukee Fuel 650 in. lbs. of torque


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## farlsincharge (Dec 31, 2010)

wendon said:


> Bosch brushless 600 in. lbs. of torque
> Milwaukee Fuel 650 in. lbs. of torque


The Milwaukees have up to 725. I have had mine for a few months. Not long enough for a conclusive review.


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## zwodubber (Feb 24, 2011)

I'm interested in how well the socket ready chuck works. 











The Bosch techs from Germany always have at least one or two tools with them that we can't get and they are always happy to let us get a short hands on demo. I still have not caught them with any brushless though...

Their tool bags are always impressive, all german hand tools and of course plenty of Bosch power tools.

A few of the Bosch techs after finishing up the KUKA programming and setup. They were getting on a plane back to Germany that night.












I never tried Proxxon before but this 1/2" set was NICE


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

TGGT said:


> Compact Brushed
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Now I understand. A Brute Tough brushed drill already has 700 in/lbs. of torque, almost the same as a Milwaukee Fuel. I will be interested in this new line when it comes out.


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## randas (Dec 14, 2008)

wendon said:


> Bosch brushless 600 in. lbs. of torque
> Milwaukee Fuel 650 in. lbs. of torque





farlsincharge said:


> The Milwaukees have up to 725. I have had mine for a few months. Not long enough for a conclusive review.


wendons #s are comparing apples to apples. The compact Milwaukee fuel is 650, since we are comparing it to the compact bosch.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

randas said:


> wendons #s are comparing apples to apples. The compact Milwaukee fuel is 650, since we are comparing it to the compact bosch.


I thought there was only one Fuel drill, the only difference being that the compact model only came with small batteries. Am I wrong? Are there two different models or does the XC battery give the same drill higher torque? Clearly, Bosch makes a DIY model and a professional model.


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## zwodubber (Feb 24, 2011)

99cents said:


> I thought there was only one Fuel drill, the only difference being that the compact model only came with small batteries. Am I wrong? Are there two different models or does the XC battery give the same drill higher torque? Clearly, Bosch makes a DIY model and a professional model.


Xc batteries will provide more torque than slim batteries


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

zwodubber said:


> Xc batteries will provide more torque than slim batteries


So a Fuel drill is a Fuel drill, the only difference being batteries? I bought a compact with a free battery. I talked them into giving me the XC battery as the freebie. Did I do good  ?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

zwodubber said:


> Xc batteries will provide more torque than slim batteries


Where is that written?


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## FastFokker (Sep 18, 2012)

HackWork said:


> Where is that written?


Maybe this:



> http://www.milwaukeetool.com/accessories/batteries-and-chargers/48-11-1828
> 
> REDLINK™ Intelligence: Provides optimized performance and overload protection using total system communication between tool, battery and charger
> 
> Delivers more runtime, power and speed than standard lithium-ion batteries. The M18™ XC High Capacity REDLITHIUM™ Battery is designed with superior pack construction, electronics, and performance to optimize work per charge and work over pack life. It offers 3.0 amp-hours of runtime. With built-in Milwaukee durability, this battery runs cooler and performs in climates below 0°F/-18°C.


I have noticed those Redlithiums give more power to tools.


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## chewy (May 9, 2010)

My red lithium 4.0 have alot more power than my regular M18 batts.


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## randas (Dec 14, 2008)

99cents said:


> I thought there was only one Fuel drill, the only difference being that the compact model only came with small batteries. Am I wrong? Are there two different models or does the XC battery give the same drill higher torque? Clearly, Bosch makes a DIY model and a professional model.


Now that I look at it again I think your right. Its just the batteries that change the rating. However there is still two fuel models, drill/driver and hammer drill/driver

Why bosch would focus on upgrading their cheap line first is beyond me. Probably has something to do with box stores squeezing them.
Looks like makita did the same thing. Their only brushless drill looks like a pos- plastic chuck and 400in-lb rating lol


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## Lighting Bolt (Dec 2, 2011)

Power and Run time are two separate things. The M18 should have the same power with both batteries. Power = Speed and Torque. Runtime will be longer with the XC.


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## Wpgshocker (Jan 25, 2013)

Lighting Bolt said:


> Power and Run time are two separate things. The M18 should have the same power with both batteries. Power = Speed and Torque. Runtime will be longer with the XC.


This.

They use current limiting tech to prevent damage to the windings, why would they allow the drill to overdraw just because you have higher battery capacity?


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## FastFokker (Sep 18, 2012)

Lighting Bolt said:


> The M18 should have the same power with both batteries. Power = Speed and Torque.


I have the m12, but there is definitely more power (speed and torque) with the xc red lithium's. I've noticed mostly on my drill and the sawzall.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

Just curious, where are the Bosch drills and impacts made?


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

FastFokker said:


> I have the m12, but there is definitely more power (speed and torque) with the xc red lithium's. I've noticed mostly on my drill and the sawzall.


I saw that when that came out with the Red Lithium. The standard M12 lithiums didn't have the same power.


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## chewy (May 9, 2010)

wendon said:


> Just curious, where are the Bosch drills and impacts made?


I had a 36v Bosch made in Switzerland, it was a POS.


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## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

wendon said:


> Just curious, where are the Bosch drills and impacts made?


My 18v Bosch drill and impact are made in Malaysia.


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

chewy said:


> I had a 36v Bosch made in Switzerland, it was a POS.


I had a Brute Tough 18v Nicad made in Switzerland. I couldn't killed it.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

TGGT said:


> I had a Brute Tough 18v Nicad made in Switzerland. I couldn't killed it.


Malaysia seems to be the COO now. I doubt if even cuckoo clocks are made on Switzerland now  .


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

Vintage Sounds said:


> My 18v Bosch drill and impact are made in Malaysia.


How sad! I guess I'll stick to my Milwaukee even though they're made in Hong Kong or China or wherever.


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## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

wendon said:


> How sad! I guess I'll stick to my Milwaukee even though they're made in Hong Kong or China or wherever.


It's not that sad - in this day and age if manufacturing _has to _be outsourced Malaysia has more democratic freedom than does China and Bosch at least makes some of its more serious tools in Germany like some of their SDS hammer drills, jackhammers, etc. On top of that it is still actually German owned. 

That's more than can be said for Milwaukee, a brand marketed as being all-American yet is Chinese owned and manufactured.


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## zwodubber (Feb 24, 2011)

HackWork said:


> Where is that written?



on the website

XC











Compact


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

Vintage Sounds said:


> It's not that sad - in this day and age if manufacturing _has to _be outsourced Malaysia has more democratic freedom than does China and Bosch at least makes some of its more serious tools in Germany like some of their SDS hammer drills, jackhammers, etc. On top of that it is still actually German owned.
> 
> That's more than can be said for Milwaukee, a brand marketed as being all-American yet is Chinese owned and manufactured.


Actually, I believe it's headquartered in Hong Kong. Probably as much or more freedom there than in Malaysia. They might even have better quality control.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

zwodubber said:


> on the website
> 
> XC
> 
> ...


So this would be the first conclusive evidence that the XC batteries provide more power than the standards. I assume this same thing carries down to the M12 system.

I've been asking this question for a while and a lot of people have mentioned that it felt like it, but this is the first written proof of it.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> So this would be the first conclusive evidence that the XC batteries provide more power than the standards. I assume this same thing carries down to the M12 system.
> 
> I've been asking this question for a while and a lot of people have mentioned that it felt like it, but this is the first written proof of it.


It looks like it's true, although I find the M18 Fuel with the small battery still has lots of jam even at 650 in/lbs., but battery life is pathetic. The small battery is okay on the impact.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Do the old M12 chargers charge the new RedLithium batteries the same as a new charger would? Or do the new chargers have some type of "RedLink" crap in them?


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Will the new batteries make my radio blow up or will the volume just go higher  ?

...or maybe they will make Pink sound like Rammstein, which isn't necessarily a bad thing.


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

HackWork said:


> Do the old M12 chargers charge the new RedLithium batteries the same as a new charger would? Or do the new chargers have some type of "RedLink" crap in them?


I've never heard of needing a new charger for the higher amp hour batteries ? I have heard that the m12 chargers tend to not last that long . Lots of bad reviews on amazon . I went with the dual m12 / m18 chargers , so I'm set up for either tool now .


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

drumnut08 said:


> I've never heard of needing a new charger for the higher amp hour batteries ? I have heard that the m12 chargers tend to not last that long . Lots of bad reviews on amazon . I went with the dual m12 / m18 chargers , so I'm set up for either tool now .


That's funny I've got a bunch of M12 chargers and I've never had one go bad. I have had a couple M18 chargers go bad recently. I have the M12 Pvc shear and they claimed it could cut 2" Pvc. It didn't until they came out with the Red Lithium batteries.:whistling2: I do like the dual chargers:thumbsup:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

It's funny because Amazon has 2 M12 chargers, one of them that they fulfill the orders that costs $19 and another one from a different vendor for $41.

The reviews for both complain about the chargers giving the 2 blinking light error.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

HackWork said:


> It's funny because Amazon has 2 M12 chargers, one of them that they fulfill the orders that costs $19 and another one from a different vendor for $41.
> 
> The reviews for both complain about the chargers giving the 2 blinking light error.


Maybe they were using them for the "If an appliance falls into a bathtub of water will I be electrocuted" experiment! Or maybe their battery was bad?


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> It's funny because Amazon has 2 M12 chargers, one of them that they fulfill the orders that costs $19 and another one from a different vendor for $41.
> 
> The reviews for both complain about the chargers giving the 2 blinking light error.


It happens all the time. Unplug it, plug it back in, jump around on one foot, take the battery out, put it back in, sing the national anthem, sooner or later it works again.


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## Lighting Bolt (Dec 2, 2011)

Interesting on the Milwaukee Site...
2602-20 - bare tool (This would be the drill motor that takes both batteries) 525in. Lbs.
http://www.milwaukeetool.com/power-tools/cordless/2602-20
2602-22 - With XC - 525in. Lbs
http://www.milwaukeetool.com/power-tools/cordless/2602-22
2602-22 - With Reg Bat. - 450in. Lbs
http://www.milwaukeetool.com/power-tools/cordless/2602-22ct

I find it interesting that the numbers are all different from the images you linked, Hackwork.

I tried to find the 2.0 vs. 4.0 comparison on the 2611, but they don't come together in a kit, hence no specs.


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## Wpgshocker (Jan 25, 2013)

HackWork said:


> So this would be the first conclusive evidence that the XC batteries provide more power than the standards. I assume this same thing carries down to the M12 system.
> 
> I've been asking this question for a while and a lot of people have mentioned that it felt like it, but this is the first written proof of it.


Ohms law man.

The higher capacity battery offers longer run time. 
Quote from milwaukee " Use with the REDLITHIUM™ Compact or Extended Capacity Battery Pack for more work per charge and more work over pack life than the competitors."
Unless the higher capacity batteries somehow reduce the resistance in the windings, the draw will remain the same. They employ current limiters to protect the windings,why would they risk damaging the tool?
If they throttle tool performance just to sell higher capacity batteries, then why would you ever buy their product?


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## Lighting Bolt (Dec 2, 2011)

True, but are you going to see a quicker voltage or current drop on a 4ah or 2ah battery? In THEORY, it should be the same...

It sounds, however, that in reality, Chewy is noticing a difference, so I believe something else is at play. There are a lot of variables here, temperature, tool age, etc.


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## 8V71 (Dec 23, 2011)

The high capacity batteries provide a "stiffer supply" with less voltage drop which will give you the extra torque.


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## Wpgshocker (Jan 25, 2013)

8V71 said:


> The high capacity batteries provide a "stiffer supply" with less voltage drop which will give you the extra torque.


You think there is voltage drop from 3ah to 4ah batteries?


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## Wpgshocker (Jan 25, 2013)

Don't confuse current capacity with current draw.

The AH rating is not A. It is just capacity. Meaning longer run time.


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## 8V71 (Dec 23, 2011)

If you could measure the voltage during a working load there will be less voltage drop with the higher capacity batteries.


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## Wpgshocker (Jan 25, 2013)

8V71 said:


> If you could measure the voltage during a working load there will be less voltage drop with the higher capacity batteries.


Voltage is electrical pressure, it doesn't change because the capacity of the battery is slightly higher or lower, the voltage drop across the windings is the same regardless of battery capacity and I doubt there is a hidden load somewhere in the lower capacity battery. Now I will give you the fact that manufacturing imperfections could effect the voltage slightly. But all batteries have a variance between standing and load voltage, which would be the same between the batteries, regardless of capacity.

If you cracked open a battery, you would find that it is composed of cells. Higher capacity batteries have additional cells. That's all, more stored "work".


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## Wpgshocker (Jan 25, 2013)

"Installing batteries with varying A·h ratings does not affect device operation (although it may affect the operation interval) rated for a specific voltage unless load limits are exceeded."

Read this.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_(electricity)


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## 8V71 (Dec 23, 2011)

If you start your car with one battery there will be xx voltage drop at the battery while cranking, lets say 10 volts measured voltage. Parallel another battery and the voltage drop will be less, say 11 volts measured, and the starter will crank faster and harder. There is a reason why some/most? diesels have 2 batteries.


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## Wpgshocker (Jan 25, 2013)

8V71 said:


> If you start your car with one battery there will be xx voltage drop at the battery while cranking, lets say 10 volts measured voltage. Parallel another battery and the voltage drop will be less, say 11 volts measured, and the starter will crank faster and harder. There is a reason why some/most? diesels have 2 batteries.


No. 
Deisel starts with 24v not 12 so they have 2 batteries in series. Unless it is a 12v system, then the 2 batteries are there for the extra capacity and current.
And there is a difference between standing and load voltage in most batteries. Most 12v car batteries are 14.4 standing, and 12v under load. You need to read the article I posted for you.


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## 8V71 (Dec 23, 2011)

Wpgshocker said:


> then the 2 batteries are there for the *extra* capacity and *current*.


I meant small diesel trucks like pickups with a 12 volt system. This is not even the main part of this conversation. I only mentioned it as an example so you might catch on to what I am saying.


You even wrote the correct words down that I bolded so I don't know how else to explain it. More current availiable=less voltage drop=equals stronger feeling drill.


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## Wpgshocker (Jan 25, 2013)

8V71 said:


> I meant small diesel trucks like pickups with a 12 volt system. This is not even the main part of this conversation. I only mentioned it as an example so you might catch on to what I am saying.
> 
> You even wrote the correct words down that I bolded so I don't know how else to explain it. More current availiable=less voltage drop=equals stronger feeling drill.


I must be missing something or you don't understand how electricity works. Do you know what voltage drop is? 

What exactly are you trying to say? That a higher capacity battery makes the drill need less voltage? The there is less wire resistance In the high capacity battery? 

The voltage is 18v. The drill will draw what it draws. What additional load is causing your voltage drop to vary between batteries? Are you suggesting there is higher internal resistance in the lower capacity battery?

Are you trolling me?


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## 8V71 (Dec 23, 2011)

Wpgshocker said:


> you don't understand how electricity works.


You got me....I'm just a big internet fake. 



> Do you know what voltage drop is?


It's when I drop my meter off of a ladder and it still has voltage in it while falling?

I'm saying the more you load a battery the lower the voltage will be. You could place a bigass wire across the posts and end up with almost zero volts at mucho current. More load....less voltage. If you increase the ampacity of the battery there will be less voltage drop (coming out of the battery at a given load) which will make your drill have more torque over the smaller battery.


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## 8V71 (Dec 23, 2011)

Wpgshocker said:


> Are you suggesting there is higher internal resistance in the lower capacity battery?


That is a true statement.

Go back to the car starting example with 1 and 2 batteries. The load (starter) has not changed, same voltage with 2 batteries, but more voltage coming out of the batteries while cranking because you doubled the ampacity and they are being stressed less.

Same as having a high amperage load on a 100 amp vs. 200 amp service. Given the same load on both services the 200 amp service will provide more voltage than the 100 amp service.


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## chewy (May 9, 2010)

Meanwhile in the real world I can report my redlithium batteries are stronger and give noticeably longer runtime especially in my M12 multitool.


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## Wpgshocker (Jan 25, 2013)

8V71 said:


> That is a true statement.
> 
> Go back to the car starting example with 1 and 2 batteries. The load (starter) has not changed, same voltage with 2 batteries, but more voltage coming out of the batteries while cranking because you doubled the ampacity and they are being stressed less.
> 
> Same as having a high amperage load on a 100 amp vs. 200 amp service. Given the same load on both services the 200 amp service will provide more voltage than the 100 amp service.


Ok. You are officially trolling.

200 amp service provides more voltage??????


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Wpgshocker said:


> Ok. You are officially trolling.
> 100 amp service provides more voltage??????


You don't think there will be more voltage drop for the same given load on a 100a service than a 200a?


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

99cents said:


> It happens all the time. Unplug it, plug it back in, jump around on one foot, take the battery out, put it back in, sing the national anthem, sooner or later it works again.


Don't tell me I've got to sing Oh Canaduh!!!


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## Wpgshocker (Jan 25, 2013)

HackWork said:


> You don't think there will be more voltage drop for the same given load on a 100a service than a 200a?


A 40 amp load doesn't give care wether the service is 60amp or 1000amp.

If the supply voltage is the same, and the load is the same, what possible difference could there be?

Please tell me the states makes you learn electrical theory because you guys are scaring the sheet out of me.

This is level one basic crap.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Wpgshocker said:


> A 40 amp load doesn't give care wether the service is 60amp or 1000amp.
> 
> If the supply voltage is the same, and the load is the same, what possible difference could there be?
> 
> ...


The difference is the drastic difference in conductor size between a 100a and 200a service, both the PoCo's lines and the SEC's.


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## FastFokker (Sep 18, 2012)

chewy said:


> Meanwhile in the real world I can report my redlithium batteries are stronger and give noticeably longer runtime especially in my M12 multitool.


I agree.. definitely MORE POWER with red lithium.. and especially longer run times.

We keep saying this, yet people with no hands on experience keep saying it's not possible. ITS FRICKIN HAPPENING!


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

FastFokker said:


> I agree.. definitely MORE POWER with red lithium.. and especially longer run times.
> 
> We keep saying this, yet people with no hands on experience keep saying it's not possible. ITS FRICKIN HAPPENING!


I don't know if anyone said that RedLithium doesn't give more power than the older models.

Some people are saying that the XC can't give more power than the normal batteries.


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## 8V71 (Dec 23, 2011)

HackWork said:


> The difference is the drastic difference in conductor size between a 100a and 200a service, both the PoCo's lines and the SEC's.


Thanks for the help Hax, I was busy on another thread. I don't know any other way to splain things to this guy. It's so basic. :blink:


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## Wpgshocker (Jan 25, 2013)

HackWork said:


> The difference is the drastic difference in conductor size between a 100a and 200a service, both the PoCo's lines and the SEC's.


You are talking about service demand. Amps and Amp Hours are not the same thing. Please research this.

What does that have to do with drill batteries?

Bottom line, drill batteries are rated based on capacity.
Voltage is not determined by the current, that is ridiculous.
The current draw is determined by the load. Period. The length of time the battery can provide the demand is based on the battery capacity which is measured in Amp Hours. Higher capacity means longer run time, not increased voltage. Voltage drop is not decreased by higher battery capacity. 

This is basically stuff here ladies.


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## 8V71 (Dec 23, 2011)

FastFokker said:


> I agree.. definitely MORE POWER with red lithium.. and especially longer run times.
> 
> We keep saying this, yet people with no hands on experience keep saying it's not possible. ITS FRICKIN HAPPENING!


I'm saying it's possible but no one is listening.


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## Wpgshocker (Jan 25, 2013)

8V71 said:


> Thanks for the help Hax, I was busy on another thread. I don't know any other way to splain things to this guy. It's so basic. :blink:


I really hope you are an apprentice.......


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Wpgshocker said:


> You are talking about service demand. Amps and Amp Hours are not the same thing. Please research this.
> 
> What does that have to do with drill batteries?


I was commenting on the fact that you disagreed that there would be less voltage drop on a larger service with the same given load. You were incorrect.

You went into a childish tantrum insulting people for no reason, when you were incorrect in what you said.


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## Wpgshocker (Jan 25, 2013)

HackWork said:


> I was commenting on the fact that you disagreed that there would be less voltage drop on a larger service with the same given load. You were incorrect.
> 
> You went into a childish tantrum insulting people for no reason, when you were incorrect in what you said.


I never said a larger service conductor had less resistance. 
I am not mentally challenged.

To say that there is more voltage drop on a load based on service size is a completely ridiculous thing to say.

Assume a 120 v load draws 10amps. 

Who cares what size the service is?

I think he doesn't understand the difference between AH and A.
Or current and current capacity.


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## 8V71 (Dec 23, 2011)

Wpgshocker said:


> I really hope you are an apprentice.......


I hope to get some experience soon. They won't let me do anything but clean, carry, clean, and clean some more.

I don't think I would hire you if I needed electrical work done though. You seem kinda cranky.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Wpgshocker said:


> I never said a larger service conductor had less resistance.
> I am not mentally challenged.
> 
> To say that there is more voltage drop on a load based on service size is a completely ridiculous thing to say.
> ...


I don't think you have a clue what's going on.


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## Wpgshocker (Jan 25, 2013)

8V71 said:


> I hope to get some experience soon. They won't let me do anything but clean, carry, clean, and clean some more.
> 
> I don't think I would hire you if I needed electrical work done though. You seem kinda cranky.


I am cranky. Stuff like this makes me shake my head.

1st level apprentice needs to understand the basics of Ohms law and Kerchof's law. Everything will become clear once you understand the basics.


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## FastFokker (Sep 18, 2012)

8V71 said:


> I'm saying it's possible but no one is listening.


I've read what you've said and it makes sense to me.. although my knowledge of batteries is pretty limited. But it makes sense that the more cells there are, the less the voltage will drop under load. Just like a car battery and starter..

It makes sense!


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## Wpgshocker (Jan 25, 2013)

HackWork said:


> I don't think you have a clue what's going on.


Your ignorance is proof you have no clue.

Explain to me how you think a load has less voltage drop because it is on a 200 amp service vs a 100 amp service.

The supply authority has to provide the service voltage to within 3% regardless.

So tell me how a 120 v resistive load drawing 10 amps will have a voltage drop lower on a 200 amp service, I would LOVE to hear this.


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## 8V71 (Dec 23, 2011)

Wpgshocker said:


> I am cranky. Stuff like this makes me shake my head.
> 
> 1st level apprentice needs to understand the basics of Ohms law and Kerchof's law. Everything will become clear once you understand the basics.


I'm sorry that I was making things up. I want to be a real electrician so badly and learn the ohmic laws.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Wpgshocker said:


> Your ignorance is proof you have no clue.
> 
> Explain to me how you think a load has less voltage drop because it is on a 200 amp service vs a 100 amp service.
> 
> ...


:laughing:

It's not even worth responding...


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## Wpgshocker (Jan 25, 2013)

HackWork said:


> :laughing:
> 
> It's not even worth responding...


Because you can't.

Anyone with the slightest knowledge of basic electrical theory knows it too.


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## 8V71 (Dec 23, 2011)

HackWork said:


> :laughing:
> 
> It's not even worth responding...


:lol::lol::lol:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Wpgshocker said:


> Because you can't.
> 
> Anyone with the slightest knowledge of basic electrical theory knows it too.


Electrician theory is different down here since we don't use metric.


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## FastFokker (Sep 18, 2012)

But it's true.. 10A on a 100A service would cause a larger voltage drop than on a 200A service. It's practically insignificant, but it would.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

FastFokker said:


> But it's true.. 10A on a 100A service would cause a larger voltage drop than on a 200A service. It's practically insignificant, but it would.


80A on a 100A service would have a larger voltage drop than on a 200A service and it would be noticeable. I don't know how someone could argue that and then call everyone else stupid.


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## Wpgshocker (Jan 25, 2013)

FastFokker said:


> But it's true.. 10A on a 100A service would cause a larger voltage drop than on a 200A service. It's practically insignificant, but it would.



A fixed resistive load will have the same voltage drop regardless of supply capacity.

The only way to change that is to alter the amount supply voltage or the load. Since I was pretty specific about it being a fixed resistive load , the only way to change the voltage drop across the load is to mess with the supply voltage. Given that the supply voltage was said to be 120v with both services, how the hell can you say one would make the voltage drop different from the other?


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

Wpgshocker said:


> I really hope to be an apprentice......
> 
> Right now I flip burgers .


Fixed it for you.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Wpgshocker said:


> A fixed resistive load will have the same voltage drop regardless of supply capacity.
> 
> The only way to change that is to alter the amount supply voltage or the load. Since I was pretty specific about it being a fixed resistive load , the only way to change the voltage drop across the load is to mess with the supply voltage. Given that the supply voltage was said to be 120v with both services, how the hell can you say one would make the voltage drop different from the other?


Because one service would have larger conductors than the other service so there would be a difference in voltage drop with the same amount of load


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## 8V71 (Dec 23, 2011)

Wpgshocker said:


> A fixed resistive load will have the same voltage drop regardless of supply capacity.
> 
> The only way to change that is to alter the amount supply voltage or the load. Since I was pretty specific about it being a fixed resistive load , the only way to change the voltage drop across the load is to mess with the supply voltage. Given that the supply voltage was said to be 120v with both services, how the hell can you say one would make the voltage drop different from the other?


Will I be able to mess with the supply voltage when I become an electrician?


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## FastFokker (Sep 18, 2012)

Sounds like we're making shiit up now.

100A service will be on a smaller conductor than a 200A service. So 10A's on it will cause a larger voltage drop than on the 200A service.

That's just reality.. and nothing to do with these milwaukee drills and batteries so far as I can tell. 

But I think 8V71 explained it pretty good.. I trust him. Apprentices are in school and know all the formulas and theory behind how things work and why.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Wpgshocker said:


> A fixed resistive load will have the same voltage drop regardless of supply capacity.
> 
> The only way to change that is to alter the amount supply voltage or the load. Since I was pretty specific about it being a fixed resistive load , the only way to change the voltage drop across the load is to mess with the supply voltage. Given that the supply voltage was said to be 120v with both services, how the hell can you say one would make the voltage drop different from the other?


:laughing: You've added like 12 stipulations that have nothing to do with this and were never mentioned.

This is what was said:



HackWork said:


> Wpgshocker said:
> 
> 
> > Ok. You are officially trolling.
> ...


Man up and admit you were wrong and apologize for all the crying you did.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## Wpgshocker (Jan 25, 2013)

BBQ said:


> Because one service would have larger conductors than the other service so there would be a difference in voltage drop with the same amount of load


Holy crap......

You meter both services and they both have 120v to the load. Because the supply authority did its job.


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## FastFokker (Sep 18, 2012)

This is better than the home version of Are You Smarter Than a Fifth Grader!


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Wpgshocker said:


> Holy crap......
> 
> You meter both services and they both have 120v to the load. Because the supply authority did its job.


The supply authority only has to provide the correct range of voltage at the point of connection to the building, not the load. 

But keep slinging crap, it is pretty funny.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Hey Fokker, this guy completely obliterated that thing you said last night about how all the Canadians that come here are real smart.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

What is the Canadian word for troll?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

BBQ said:


> What is the Canadian word for troll?


Pêcher à la traîne.


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## FastFokker (Sep 18, 2012)

HackWork said:


> Hey Fokker, this guy completely obliterated that thing you said last night about how all the Canadians that come here are real smart.


Go try and find a quote where I said that. lol

You mis-read my words. I said from experience on ET, it seems like Canadians know their code pretty good... yet Americans are all over the place. Some know it REEEEAL good, and others can't even read.

Straight up.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

FastFokker said:


> Go try and find a quote where I said that. lol
> 
> You mis-read my words. I said from experience on ET, it seems like Canadians know their code pretty good... yet Americans are all over the place. Some know it REEEEAL good, and others can't even read.
> 
> Straight up.


I could read


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## FastFokker (Sep 18, 2012)

lol

Must have been the beer goggles. Too many wobbly pops!

You just want to hate DURKA foreigners and DURKA your brain changes MOHAMMED the words to say JIHAD something else.


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## Wpgshocker (Jan 25, 2013)

HackWork said:


> Hey Fokker, this guy completely obliterated that thing you said last night about how all the Canadians that come here are real smart.


I have backed up my claims with links to information that isn't misguided opinion.

Re-read my earlier posts.

As for debating conductor size, I never said there wasn't a difference in wire resistance. Learn to read.
I said that current capacity and current draw had nothing to do with determining the amount of voltage. Again, learn to read.
Some how this was quickly derailed.

You want to talk about voltage drop across service conductors, go for it. I was trying to level the playing field and talk about the load. You want split hairs, go nuts. We can argue about supply voltage all day. I was merely trying to rule out an impossible variable. I have had 200 amp services with more and less supply voltage than a 100 amp. You can't argue that kind of variable without a specific example. 
And the drop would occur before any load would ever be present.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Blah blah blah, blah blah?


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## 8V71 (Dec 23, 2011)




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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

FastFokker said:


> I said from experience on ET, it seems like Canadians know their code pretty good...


:001_huh::laughing::lol::lol:


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## Lighting Bolt (Dec 2, 2011)

> A fixed resistive load will have the same voltage drop regardless of supply capacity.


I do believe that M12 and M18 have variable resistive loads.

I also believe that M12 and M18 batteries are not constant supplies.

This is where comparing them to service isn't and never will be apples to apples.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

You guys are making my brain puke.


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

HackWork said:


> Blah blah blah, blah blah?


This post is more intelligent and informative then anything wig shocker posted.

Keep up the good work


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## FastFokker (Sep 18, 2012)

robnj772 said:


> HackWork said:
> 
> 
> > Blah blah blah, blah blah?
> ...


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

They are from b4t's area.

Here we call them bennies, shoebies or tourists.


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## ohmontherange (May 7, 2008)

FastFokker said:


>


Prettiest men I've ever seen :laughing:

Come on down to my neck of the woods - a bar full of oilfield roughnecks & cowboys....


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## butcher733 (Aug 4, 2012)

So we can all agree on one thing, HILTI makes the best power tools out there.


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## chewy (May 9, 2010)

butcher733 said:


> So we can all agree on one thing, HILTI makes the best power tools out there.


If your a demo monkey.


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## ohmontherange (May 7, 2008)

butcher733 said:


> So we can all agree on one thing, HILTI makes the best power tools out there.


That's what they say. Some day I'll pony up. Until then I guess I'll keep using this junk.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

Wpgshocker said:


> I have backed up my claims with links to information that isn't misguided opinion.
> 
> Re-read my earlier posts.
> 
> ...


The resistance of the service conductors IS the point bro. The voltage drop would be additive between the supply and the load because they are, in essence, in series. The discussion isn't about whether an 80A load has more voltage drop than an 80A load, the discussion is that the voltage drop of an 80A load on a 100A service with #2 AL or #3 or 4 copper is greater than that of an 80A load on a 200A service with 4/0 AL or 2/0 or 3/0 CU service. Derp.


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## heavysparky (Jun 2, 2009)

ohmontherange said:


> Prettiest men I've ever seen :laughing:
> 
> Come on down to my neck of the woods - a bar full of oilfield roughnecks & cowboys....


 
They will get their ' factory seal " broken :laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## BababooeyHTJ (May 31, 2013)

Wpgshocker said:


> You are talking about service demand. Amps and Amp Hours are not the same thing. Please research this.
> 
> What does that have to do with drill batteries?
> 
> ...


You might want to poke around on some of the flashlight forums to see just how much of a difference different lithium ion cells can make. Not all 18650 cells can put out the same current. I've personally load tested a few 18650 cells, they aren't all built the same. That is especially true at less than a full charge. 

BTW M12 batteries are three 18650 lion batteries in series. The XC batts are two sets of three cells in parallel. For that reason they can put out more current.


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