# GFCI Protection 2014 NEC Dishwasher & Disposals



## Deep Cover

At a IAEI code seminar last month, our inspectors stated that in the sink cabinet WAS considered "readily accessible". However, a typical receptacle with a piece of furniture in front of it, was not.


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## Chris1971

Deep Cover said:


> At a IAEI code seminar last month, our inspectors stated that in the sink cabinet WAS considered "readily accessible". However, a typical receptacle with a piece of furniture in front of it, was not.


Good point. I'll need to see how the state will interpret it.


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## Dennis Alwon

I would install a dead front gfci under the sink and perhaps use it as the disconnect


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## electricmanscott

Deep Cover said:


> At a IAEI code seminar last month, our inspectors stated that in the sink cabinet WAS considered "readily accessible".


That's the exact opposite of what their code Analysis of changes book says. 

The purpose of a GFCI receptacle being readily accessible is to make testing as easy as possible. A GFCI buried in a kitchen sink base is, IMO, not readily accessible.


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## Dennis Alwon

electricmanscott said:


> That's the exact opposite of what their code Analysis of changes book says.
> 
> The purpose of a GFCI receptacle being readily accessible is to make testing as easy as possible. A GFCI buried in a kitchen sink base is, IMO, not readily accessible.


If the gfci is up high and close to the door I don't see an issue


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## BBQ

Dennis Alwon said:


> I would install a dead front gfci under the sink and perhaps use it as the disconnect


It would have to be labeled ON and OFF to serve as the disconnect. I think they are available that way but not sure.


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## 480sparky

Add another gang to a box at the ctop and install a deadfront GFCI there. Problem solved.


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## electricmanscott

480sparky said:


> Add another gang to a box at the ctop and install a deadfront GFCI there. Problem solved.


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## BBQ

electricmanscott said:


>


Satan forbid a device is seen in the kitchen. :laughing:


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## Dennis Alwon

480sparky said:


> Add another gang to a box at the ctop and install a deadfront GFCI there. Problem solved.


Most of my customers would not like that.


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## Dennis Alwon

BBQ said:


> It would have to be labeled ON and OFF to serve as the disconnect. I think they are available that way but not sure.



Good Point. I used P&S


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## Chris1971

BBQ said:


> It would have to be labeled ON and OFF to serve as the disconnect. I think they are available that way but not sure.


.........


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## Deep Cover

electricmanscott said:


> That's the exact opposite of what their code Analysis of changes book says.
> 
> The purpose of a GFCI receptacle being readily accessible is to make testing as easy as possible. A GFCI buried in a kitchen sink base is, IMO, not readily accessible.


Which version of the book are you talking about? 2011 or 14? This was a 2011 Code Change class, when the requirement of readily accessible was first required. Maybe the interpretation changed over the 3 years.


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## Deep Cover

Dennis Alwon said:


> 2014 requires gfci for dishwasher and afci in kiychens


I realize that, but I'm talking about the requirement for GFI's to be readily accessible.


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## Dennis Alwon

Deep Cover said:


> Which version of the book are you talking about? 2011 or 14? This was a 2011 Code Change class, when the requirement of readily accessible was first required. Maybe the interpretation changed over the 3 years.


The 2014 has changed but the 2011 states no removal of obstacles. Thus if the gfci is in the back and you have to move soaps, boxes etc to get to it then it would not be readily accesible


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## Dennis Alwon

Deep Cover said:


> I realize that, but I'm talking about the requirement for GFI's to be readily accessible.


I realized that so I deleted my post but you got yours in before I could finish. 

I correctly responded above


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## Deep Cover

I'm just stating what was relayed as the IEAI's interpretation.

But, for argument's sake, if that is the case, then if an inspector comes in for a final kitchen inspection and there is a coffee maker in front of a GFI, the job has to be failed.

Likewise, if the dish/disposal GFI was in the sink base with nothing else in it, it would be legal. It's silly IMO.


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## BBQ

Deep Cover said:


> I'm just stating what was relayed as the IEAI's interpretation.
> 
> But, for argument's sake, if that is the case, then if an inspector comes in for a final kitchen inspection and there is a coffee maker in front of a GFI, the job has to be failed.
> 
> Likewise, if the dish/disposal GFI was in the sink base with nothing else in it, it would be legal. It's silly IMO.


You can call it silly as you want but ultimatly it is up to the inspector. 


By the way, electrical equipment such as devices mounted above counters are already an NEC violation. 110.26 :jester:


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## 347sparky

Gfci breaker with regular receptacle?


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## Deep Cover

2014 would require AFCI protection...which _almost_ eliminates the GFI breaker scenario.


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## ponyboy

Iowa is still on 2008. Who knows when they'll get on 2014


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## macmikeman

Macmikey say" drill 2" hole thru countertop and route dishwasher cord thru up to countertop gfi protected receptacle outlet. Bam. 

The ridiculousness of that statement (along with the fact it violates code) is no larger than the requirement to have dishwasher's on gfi in the first place......


Never , ever, ever, never, ever, ever, ever, never, ever seen a single incident of a dishwasher shorting to its frame. 

And if I am wrong and they do, it should be a built into the dishwasher a factory ground fault detector circuit. 

I would love to find out what kind of hash is passed around the table at a cmp meeting.


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## Dennis Alwon

Deep Cover said:


> 2014 would require AFCI protection...which _almost_ eliminates the GFI breaker scenario.


I don't understand. AFCI does not eliminate gfci where required


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## Deep Cover

Dennis Alwon said:


> I don't understand. AFCI does not eliminate gfci where required


AFCI devices are not readily available as of yet (no pun intended), so you would have to use an AFCI breaker, thus not being able to use a GFI breaker. I know you probably know, but in order to use a AFCI receptacle, you would have to satisfy the other requirements as well.


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## BBQ

Dennis Alwon said:


> I don't understand. AFCI does not eliminate gfci where required


He is saying the breaker will have to be AFCI so you can't use a GFCI breaker, you have to use a GFCI device. 

I might put a faceless GFCI nippled to the side of the panel.


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## Dennis Alwon

I suspect that will make a gfci/afci breaker again someday. I am almost certain GE had them at one time but not anymore-- I may be incorrect on that but that is my memory of it.


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## Rockyd

BBQ said:


> You can call it silly as you want but ultimatly it is up to the inspector.
> 
> 
> By the way, electrical equipment such as devices mounted above counters are already an NEC violation. 110.26 :jester:


???? Want to expand on this? Not being sarcastic, I'm asking for justification.


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## macmikeman

Big Orange - one carton of faceless gfi's in white only on the store's shelve, with sometimes only maybe one left in there cause they never restock those. And they are usually priced about $5 more than a regular gfi receptacle outlet. 

It would have been just as easy for NFPA to have inserted into the 14 "Dishwashers that do not have built in gfi protection SHALL not be installed in dwellings." But that would have become a problem on the golf course for them ...


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## B4T

Has there ever been any studies posted where people or pets were dying from electric shock that came from a dishwasher or garbage disposal??

Seems soon they will require whole house GFI/AFCI protection at the main breaker...

Only people I see making a ton of money here are the manufactures and the EC's get the headaches.. :no::no:


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## BBQ

Rockyd said:


> ???? Want to expand on this? Not being sarcastic, I'm asking for justification.





> 110.26 Spaces About Electrical Equipment. Sufficient access and working space shall be provided and maintained about all electrical equipment to permit ready and safe operation and maintenance of such equipment.
> 
> (A) Working Space. Working space for equipment operating at 600 volts, nominal, or less to ground and likely to require examination, adjustment, servicing, or maintenance while energized shall comply with the dimensions of 110.26(A)(1), (A)(2), and (A)(3) or as required or permitted elsewhere in this Code.
> 
> 
> 
> (3) Height of Working Space. The work space shall be clear and extend from the grade, floor, or platform to the height required by 110.26(E). Within the height requirements of this section, other equipment that is associated with the electrical installation and is located above or be-low the electrical equipment shall be permitted to extend not more than 150 mm (6 in.) beyond the front of the electrical equipment.


Even if you want to say a switch does not need examination, adjustment, servicing, or maintenance a GFCI does. 

Obviously I am not asking for jobs to start failing, just pointing out a code section that needs some work.


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## EBFD6

B4T said:


> Only people I see making a ton of money here are the manufactures and the EC's get the headaches.. :no::no:


You don't mark up your material? I'm sure you do. I bet you make more money selling an $80 breaker than you do selling an $8 breaker. 

I don't necessarily agree with the need to afci or gfci every circuit, but to say that ec's aren't making more money due to these codes isn't accurate. If you aren't making more money, you're doing it wrong.


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## B4T

EBFD6 said:


> You don't mark up your material? I'm sure you do. I bet you make more money selling an $80 breaker than you do selling an $8 breaker.
> 
> I don't necessarily agree with the need to afci or gfci every circuit, but to say that ec's aren't making more money due to these codes isn't accurate. If you aren't making more money, you're doing it wrong.


I have to guarantee my work.. if a customer calls with a problem.. I go to see what is the cause..

If I waste (3) hours on a tripped DW GFI.. I have to eat that time and labor....

Charging a customer is not an options if you want to avoid a mess...


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## BBQ

B4T said:


> I have to guarantee my work.. if a customer calls with a problem.. I go to see what is the cause..
> 
> If I waste (3) hours on a tripped DW GFI.. I have to eat that time and labor....
> 
> Charging a customer is not an options if you want to avoid a mess...


If the GFCI trips there is a reason and we will charge on triped GFCI calls.


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## B4T

BBQ said:


> If the GFCI trips there is a reason and we will charge on triped GFCI calls.


Different world when you are dealing face to face with a homeowner...


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## BBQ

B4T said:


> Different world when you are dealing face to face with a homeowner...


Well I guess it sucks to be you.

Why do you think the GFCI will trip?


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## EBFD6

B4T said:


> I have to guarantee my work.. if a customer calls with a problem.. I go to see what is the cause..
> 
> If I waste (3) hours on a tripped DW GFI.. I have to eat that time and labor....
> 
> Charging a customer is not an options if you want to avoid a mess...


?

I still fail to see your point. 

A customer calls you to install a circuit for their new dishwasher. In the 2014 NEC, that circuit will need to be afci and gfci protected. That material costs more than it would have before the '14 NEC. Since you mark up your material based on percentage of material costs, your markup is more, which equals more money in your pocket. 

I also don't understand your scenario. A month later the customer calls and says their new dishwasher doesn't work. You drive over there to troubleshoot it and find the gfi is tripped. You're saying that you aren't going to charge them for a service call? Why? It isn't your fault that the dishwasher tripped the gfi. You have to stand behind your work and materials you provide. If there is an issue with your wiring or it's a defective gfi then you have to eat it as a warranty issue, otherwise bill for it.


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## B4T

BBQ said:


> Well I guess it sucks to be you.
> 
> Why do you think the GFCI will trip?


That is impossible to say.. it could be a defective GFCI...

It could be something in the DW that causes an intermittent leakage of current..

The HO complains to the EC who installed it...

So first thing I do is change the GFCI.. I am there... better to change it and move on...

Say it happens again... I tell the HO to call for service from the manufacture...

The service tech comes out... finds nothing wrong... charges the HO $175.00 for a service call...

New GFCI starts to trip weeks later.. now we go through the whole process again..

The HO only option is to spend $500 on a new DW.....

My point is without the added GFCI protection.. you never got a phone call about a DW problem...


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## BBQ

B4T said:


> My point is without the added GFCI protection.. you never got a phone call about a DW problem...


We should eliminate over current protection as well. :laughing:


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## B4T

BBQ said:


> We should eliminate over current protection as well. :laughing:


Now was that post really necessary for you to promote your point of view?? ..:no:


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## BBQ

B4T said:


> Now was that post really necessary for you to promote your point of view?? ..:no:


You are complaining that a device that may save a life is a pain to you because you do not how to charge for a service call that may never come so the code should not require it. :laughing::laughing:


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## 480sparky

Deep Cover said:


> I'm just stating what was relayed as the IEAI's interpretation.
> 
> But, for argument's sake, if that is the case, then if an inspector comes in for a final kitchen inspection and there is a coffee maker in front of a GFI, the job has to be failed.
> 
> Likewise, if the dish/disposal GFI was in the sink base with nothing else in it, it would be legal. It's silly IMO.


If your inspector will fail you for a coffee maker in front of a GFCI, then the inspector needs to have the chit beat out of him.


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## B4T

BBQ said:


> You are complaining that a device that may save a life is a pain to you because you do not how to charge for a service call that may never come so the code should not require it. :laughing::laughing:


Nice try.. but you know nothing about keeping customers happy and avoiding problems that will only get worse..

I guarantee my work.. this is how I do business...

If a customer has a problem within (3) years of completion.. there is NO CHARGE...

Now some will say (3) years is too long.. this is how I roll.. right or wrong.. it has been a win-win for many years...


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## 480sparky

ponyboy said:


> Iowa is still on 2008. Who knows when they'll get on 2014



Incorrectomundo.

2011.

Most likely will adopt the '14 on Jan 1 '15.


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## BBQ

B4T said:


> Nice try.. but you know nothing about keeping customers happy and avoiding problems that will only get worse..


That is bull, I have to keep our customers happy just as much as you do. 



> I guarantee my work.. this is how I do business...
> 
> .


As do we.

If we go out on a call and the customers equipment is the problem that is not our work and is 100% billiable.


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## Rockyd

BBQ said:


> Even if you want to say a switch does not need examination, adjustment, servicing, or maintenance a GFCI does.
> 
> Obviously I am not asking for jobs to start failing, just pointing out a code section that needs some work.


The _Code_ normally lags a bit...here is the commentary from the NECH (I know, it's not code, but it should give the AHJ reason to think clearly on intent) - 

The intent of 110.26(A) is to provide enough space for personnel
to perform any of the operations listed without jeopardizing
worker safety. Examples of such equipment include
panelboards, switches, circuit breakers, controllers, and controls
on heating and air-conditioning equipment. It is important
to understand that the word examination, as used in
110.26(A), includes such tasks as checking for the presence
of voltage using a portable voltmeter.
Minimum working clearances are not required if the
equipment is such that it is not likely to require examination,
adjustment, servicing, or maintenance while energized.
However, access and working space are still required by the
opening paragraph of 110.26.
This section specifies the required working space for
such equipment as panelboards, switches, circuit breakers,
controllers, and controls on heating and air-conditioning
equipment. The intent is to provide enough space for personnel
to perform any of the operations listed without jeopardizing
worker safety. The word examination, as used in
110.26(A), includes such tasks as checking for the presence
of voltage using a portable voltmeter.
*Minimum working clearances are not required if the
equipment is such that it is not likely to require examination,
adjustment, servicing, or maintenance while energized.
However, access and working space.*

So technically let's hope that you have a reasonable AHJ. Here in Alaska, our local inspection agency doess a pretty good job at keeping it real.


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## ponyboy

480sparky said:


> Incorrectomundo. 2011.  Most likely will adopt the '14 on Jan 1 '15.


i just looked at the state website and it says state inspections are done to 2008 code except 210.8(A) which uses the 2005 verbiage. Where does it state we're on 2011??

Edit: just saw your link. They need to update their site


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## 480sparky

ponyboy said:


> i just looked at the state website and it says state inspections are done to 2008 code except 210.8(A) which uses the 2005 verbiage. Where does it state we're on 2011??
> 
> Edit: just saw your link. They need to update their site


The link says they're on the '11.


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## BBQ

Rockyd said:


> The _Code_ normally lags a bit...here is the commentary from the NECH (I know, it's not code, but it should give the AHJ reason to think clearly on intent) -
> 
> The intent of 110.26(A) is to provide enough space for personnel
> to perform any of the operations listed without jeopardizing
> worker safety. Examples of such equipment include
> panelboards, switches, circuit breakers, controllers, and controls
> on heating and air-conditioning equipment. It is important
> to understand that the word examination, as used in
> 110.26(A), includes such tasks as checking for the presence
> of voltage using a portable voltmeter.
> Minimum working clearances are not required if the
> equipment is such that it is not likely to require examination,
> adjustment, servicing, or maintenance while energized.
> However, access and working space are still required by the
> opening paragraph of 110.26.
> This section specifies the required working space for
> such equipment as panelboards, switches, circuit breakers,
> controllers, and controls on heating and air-conditioning
> equipment. The intent is to provide enough space for personnel
> to perform any of the operations listed without jeopardizing
> worker safety. The word examination, as used in
> 110.26(A), includes such tasks as checking for the presence
> of voltage using a portable voltmeter.
> *Minimum working clearances are not required if the
> equipment is such that it is not likely to require examination,
> adjustment, servicing, or maintenance while energized.
> However, access and working space.*
> 
> So technically let's hope that you have a reasonable AHJ. Here in Alaska, our local inspection agency doess a pretty good job at keeping it real.


A GFCI specifically requires testing while energized. :jester:


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## aftershockews

ponyboy said:


> Iowa is still on 2008. Who knows when they'll get on 2014


We just went the 2008 cycle this year.:laughing:

And we still do AFCI's per 2002.:blink:


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## frankft

EBFD6 said:


> ?
> 
> I still fail to see your point.
> 
> A customer calls you to install a circuit for their new dishwasher. In the 2014 NEC, that circuit will need to be afci and gfci protected. That material costs more than it would have before the '14 NEC. Since you mark up your material based on percentage of material costs, your markup is more, which equals more money in your pocket.
> 
> I also don't understand your scenario. A month later the customer calls and says their new dishwasher doesn't work. You drive over there to troubleshoot it and find the gfi is tripped. You're saying that you aren't going to charge them for a service call? Why? It isn't your fault that the dishwasher tripped the gfi. You have to stand behind your work and materials you provide. If there is an issue with your wiring or it's a defective gfi then you have to eat it as a warranty issue, otherwise bill for it.


In my world, customer would hire a handyman to do the work using a regular breaker, or any kind of circuit near by. What is happeneing here (mostly areas with no permits) is that contractors that go by the rules are getting squeezed out by those who don't go by rules. The Electrical examining board has no jurisdiction over a unlicensed person.The home owner doesn't feel unsafe, because a regular breaker has always worked fine for them. Their thinking is that the AFCI breaker and gfci receptacle are just a way for the electrician to pad the bill. They hire a handyman, and god knows what they will do, but the home owner will think its ok as ling as it works. If we lived where everything gets permitted, and unlicenced work got prosecuted, then things would be different, but as of now, simple service calls like replacing outlets on a now required AFCI circuit, are getting priced out of the range of what people are willing to pay, and not by the doing s of the contractor.


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## Roger123

Chris1971 said:


> According to the 2014 NEC we will be required to have GFCI protection for dishwashers and garbage disposals in a dwelling unit. These GFCI receptacles will need to be readily accessible. We now typically install two receptacles below the sink area for the disposal and dishwasher. I assume we can not install the Gfci receptacles below the sink area as they wouldn't be readily accessible? So, where's the next best place to install them? Dead front gfci's by the panel? Thoughts?


Our inspector accept the smartlock GFCI's even behind a refrigerator in a commercial kitchen. He believes that they meet the intent of the CMP.

http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/SectionDisplay.jsp?section=47134&minisite=10251


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## Dennis Alwon

Roger123 said:


> Our inspector accept the smartlock GFCI's even behind a refrigerator in a commercial kitchen. He believes that they meet the intent of the CMP.
> 
> http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/SectionDisplay.jsp?section=47134&minisite=10251


The intent is that it is accessible to be tested. What do you do when you have a huge refrigerator and the gfci is tripped behind it. There is no easy access and testing is not going to happen for sure


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## BBQ

frankft said:


> In my world, customer would hire a handyman to do the work using a regular breaker, or any kind of circuit near by. What is happeneing here (mostly areas with no permits) is that contractors that go by the rules are getting squeezed out by those who don't go by rules. The Electrical examining board has no jurisdiction over a unlicensed person.The home owner doesn't feel unsafe, because a regular breaker has always worked fine for them. Their thinking is that the AFCI breaker and gfci receptacle are just a way for the electrician to pad the bill. They hire a handyman, and god knows what they will do, but the home owner will think its ok as ling as it works. If we lived where everything gets permitted, and unlicenced work got prosecuted, then things would be different, but as of now, simple service calls like replacing outlets on a now required AFCI circuit, are getting priced out of the range of what people are willing to pay, and not by the doing s of the contractor.


You can't compete with hacks, don't even try. 

But please do not wish for reduced safety just to make things easier for business reasons


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## Chris1971

So, I will need to check to see if the AHJ will allow the Gfci receptacles to be installed underneath the sink. If not, we'll either need to locate them right by the cabinet doors or install dead front Gfci receptacles by the electrical panel so they're readily accessible.


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## ponyboy

Or you could just keep doing them the way you always have since you're not on 14 yet


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## Roger123

Dennis Alwon said:


> The intent is that it is accessible to be tested.


That is what the Smartlocks do Dennis. They test for failed protection every 15 minutes, not monthly. If there is a failure they lockout the current. They even have an alarm.


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## BBQ

Roger123 said:


> That is what the Smartlocks do Dennis. They test for failed protection every 15 minutes, not monthly. If there is a failure they lockout the current. They even have an alarm.


Regardless of that, the CMPs intent is for the GFCI device to be accessible. 

If your AHJ chooses not to enforce it or not is beyond the NFPAs ability to control.


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## Dennis Alwon

Roger123 said:


> That is what the Smartlocks do Dennis. They test for failed protection every 15 minutes, not monthly. If there is a failure they lockout the current. They even have an alarm.


I have one that has an alarm but never saw a self test. It would still be inconvenient if you had to change it


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## 480sparky

Dennis Alwon said:


> Most of my customers would not like that.



How many devices are already at the c'top? So what's one more?


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## Dennis Alwon

480sparky said:


> How many devices are already at the c'top? So what's one more?


I have had customers not want any in the wall.


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## Deep Cover

480sparky said:


> If your inspector will fail you for a coffee maker in front of a GFCI, then the inspector needs to have the chit beat out of him.


Is that not the way the code reads? If you have to move obstacles?


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## 480sparky

Deep Cover said:


> Is that not the way the code reads? If you have to move obstacles?



If a coffee maker is considered an 'obstacle', then the inspector needs to be take out back and spend some time with Vinny and Bruno.


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## BBQ

480sparky said:


> If a coffee maker is considered an 'obstacle', then the inspector needs to be take out back and spend some time with Vinny and Bruno.


That will depend if it is HOs Mr Coffee or a coffee shops three burner stainless steel 200 pound machine. 


I see this as giving the inspector a tool to use when they feel it makes sense.


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## Deep Cover

480sparky said:


> If a coffee maker is considered an 'obstacle', then the inspector needs to be take out back and spend some time with Vinny and Bruno.


It's not that I don't agree with you, but if you are consider the cleaning agents/waste paper basket in the sink base obstacles, I think you have to consider that coffee maker an obstacle.


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## RIVETER

Chris1971 said:


> According to the 2014 NEC we will be required to have GFCI protection for dishwashers and garbage disposals in a dwelling unit. These GFCI receptacles will need to be readily accessible. We now typically install two receptacles below the sink area for the disposal and dishwasher. I assume we can not install the Gfci receptacles below the sink area as they wouldn't be readily accessible? So, where's the next best place to install them? Dead front gfci's by the panel? Thoughts?


In the case of those types of receptacles "readily accessible" means for the electrician, or plumber.


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## BBQ

RIVETER said:


> In the case of those types of receptacles "readily accessible" means for the electrician, or plumber.


The code making panel says it is so the homeowner can test the GFCIs.


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## RIVETER

BBQ said:


> The code making panel says it is so the homeowner can test the GFCIs.


Yeah, right.:thumbsup:


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## Shockdoc

How individual members of the CMP and NFPA should be dealt with


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## BBQ

Shockdoc said:


> How individual members of the CMP and NFPA should be dealt with


Funny, that is how I think NYC cops should handle you. :thumbsup:


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## chicken steve

BBQ said:


> A GFCI specifically requires testing while energized. :jester:


which maybe %.0001 of installs might actually assume monthly.....~CS~


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## Dennis Alwon

chicken steve said:


> which maybe %.0001 of installs might actually assume monthly.....~CS~


I bet less than that :thumbsup:


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## EBFD6

BBQ said:


> A GFCI specifically requires testing while energized. :jester:





chicken steve said:


> which maybe %.0001 of installs might actually assume monthly.....~CS~





Dennis Alwon said:


> I bet less than that :thumbsup:


I bet less than 1% of the guys on this forum even test the gfci's in their own house (I don't), do we really think that non-electricians do? I doubt they even remember they exist except when they need to use one.


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## don_resqcapt19

EBFD6 said:


> I bet less than 1% of the guys on this forum even test the gfci's in their own house (I don't), do we really think that non-electricians do? I doubt they even remember they exist except when they need to use one.


1% may be on the high side of that estimate.


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## RGH

Chris1971 said:


> So, I will need to check to see if the AHJ will allow the Gfci receptacles to be installed underneath the sink. If not, we'll either need to locate them right by the cabinet doors or install dead front Gfci receptacles by the electrical panel so they're readily accessible.


This what I was thinking....handy box or similar...shallow box and slim line GFI....this may be a town to town thing for us....see what happens....or as someone else said....GFI breaker and done or cut circuit and dead front and ...breaker cost vs box and fish....PITA either way....this is going to be a real nut for home owners.


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## chicken steve

EBFD6 said:


> I bet less than 1% of the guys on this forum even test the gfci's in their own house (I don't), do we really think that non-electricians do? I doubt they even remember they exist except when they need to use one.


why should we bother with the recent lock out feature? ~CS~


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## owl

What is meant by a "deadfront" GFCI? I thought deadfront just meant the user can't access the live stuff inside.


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## aftershockews

owl said:


> What is meant by a "deadfront" GFCI? I thought deadfront just meant the user can't access the live stuff inside.


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## aftershockews

Another term is Faceless.


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## bobelectric

Who cares. we are on 2008 code.


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## don_resqcapt19

Roger123 said:


> That is what the Smartlocks do Dennis. They test for failed protection every 15 minutes, not monthly. If there is a failure they lockout the current. They even have an alarm.


As far as I know they do not kill the power based on a failed internal test. If they fail on a manual test they cannot be reset and if they fail an internal test and after that lose their power they cannot be reset.


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## 8V71

EBFD6 said:


> I bet less than 1% of the guys on this forum even test the gfci's in their own house (I don't), do we really think that non-electricians do? I doubt they even remember they exist except when they need to use one.


Mother Nature tests mine every so often. :whistling2:


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## jbrookers

I think the best design is the GFI outlet under the sink for many reasons. The code violation of passing a cord through the cabinet panel is minimal and should be allowed as an exception. I have never seen a microwave installation fail an inspection because the cord passes through the cabinet shelf. As long as the hole is large enough to pass the cord end through I see no greater hazard in having the cord under the sink then coiled up and jammed behind the dishwasher.

I prefer plug/cord disconnects for resi applications over hardwired installations with a disconect. The fridge, microwave, oven, instant hot, warmer drawer, vent hood, wine cooler, toaster, stove, etc. are all cord/plug...why are the garbage disposal and dishwasher ever hardwired? I don't understand the logic of a manufactures put a plug on a over the stove microwave but not a dishwasher.


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## MTW

The NEC is completely out of control now.


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## BBQ

MTW said:


> The NEC is completely out of control now.


Yes, GFCIs are to be feared.

You must know that at some point everything will be GFCI and ten years after that electricians will think we were stupid not to use them. :thumbsup:


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## MTW

BBQ said:


> Yes, GFCIs are to be feared.
> 
> You must know that at some point everything will be GFCI and ten years after that electricians will think we were stupid not to use them. :thumbsup:


I was talking about AFCI's.


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## macmikeman

BBQ said:


> Yes, GFCIs are to be feared.
> 
> You must know that at some point everything in dwellings will be GFCI and ten years after that electricians will think we were stupid not to use them. :thumbsup:


fify.



Big building owners are powerful and therefore they don't have to spend the extra money on gfi protection..........


Now macmike waits patiently for the inevitable pouncing... (fire alarm, sprinklers, standyby systems, etc, etc,...)


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## jbrookers

I don't see how a GFI under a sink is any less accessible than a GFI for a spa tub motor...which is allowed by the NEC. Cabinets are much larger and regularly accessed by HO's. I rather access an outlet that is 24" in the back of a 36" sink basin than an outlet that is 12" in the back of a 12" access panel.


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## macmikeman

jbrookers said:


> I don't see how a GFI under a sink is any less accessible than a GFI for a spa tub motor...which is allowed by the NEC. Cabinets are much larger and regularly accessed by HO's. I rather access an outlet that is 24" in the back of a 36" sink basin than an outlet that is 12" in the back of a 12" access panel.


Thats out now too. At least around here. I use a faceless next to the tub now.


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## kandymaple

*Dishwasher circuit*

Good afternoon all,

Can someone direct me to the Massachusetts electrical code which indicates a dishwasher requires a dedicated circuit? Currently, the dishwasher is connected to a counter outlet and I want to make sure this is corrected. Thank you so much in advance for your help!!


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## BBQ

MTW said:


> I was talking about AFCI's.


And the name of this thread is?:whistling2:


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## BBQ

jbrookers said:


> I don't see how a GFI under a sink is any less accessible than a GFI for a spa tub motor...which is allowed by the NEC..


That has not been allowed by the NEC for a number of code cycles. Like Mac we have used faceless ones on the wall near the spa.


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## Dennis Alwon

kandymaple said:


> Good afternoon all,
> 
> Can someone direct me to the Massachusetts electrical code which indicates a dishwasher requires a dedicated circuit? Currently, the dishwasher is connected to a counter outlet and I want to make sure this is corrected. Thank you so much in advance for your help!!


I am sorry but if you are not a licensed electrician we are not allowed to help. I will tell you that you cannot hook the dishwasher to the counter receptacles.


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## MTW

BBQ said:


> And the name of this thread is?:whistling2:


Doesn't matter, I reserve the right to derail any thread I want. :thumbup:


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## Chris1971

MTW said:


> Doesn't matter, I reserve the right to derail any thread I want. :thumbup:


Not mine.:laughing:


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## MTW

BBQ said:


> Yes, GFCIs are to be feared.
> 
> You must know that at some point everything will be GFCI and ten years after that electricians will think we were stupid not to use them. :thumbsup:


FWIW I'm completely in favor of expanded use of GFCI protection. I do wonder how necessary they are on dishwashers, but that horse left the barn alreay. Anyway, GFCI's are device that you can hold in your hand, take apart and you know what it does. AFCI's are some mystery box that nobody has any clue about except some engineers in a lab.


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## BBQ

MTW said:


> Doesn't matter, I reserve the right to derail any thread I want. :thumbup:


:thumbsup:


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## Breeze

Put the dang GFI under the sink! It’s readily accessible, no different than putting a GFI on micro, or just put it on a GFI breaker if it makes you feel better. Don’t worry about it tripping; all motors that you will find in a house have been designed specifically not to activate GFI tripping mechanisms. For connivance though, I load the micro from the closest counter top GFI and it works out great. Most inspectors are not very knowledgeable about the code and truly have no idea about the science behind anything we do just as long as there is a GFI, they are happy. I will say though if you are wiring a dwelling in a bigger city than you may want to double check with the inspector there, because the bigger city means more money, higher paid employees and those inspectors seem to actually care a lot more about their job.


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## wadeco

*dishwaher disposal*

put it on a gfci breaker


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## MTW

I wish Chris1971 would come back to the forum.


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## wadeco

*d/w g/d*



Chris1971 said:


> According to the 2014 NEC we will be required to have GFCI protection for dishwashers and garbage disposals in a dwelling unit. These GFCI receptacles will need to be readily accessible. We now typically install two receptacles below the sink area for the disposal and dishwasher. I assume we can not install the Gfci receptacles below the sink area as they wouldn't be readily accessible? So, where's the next best place to install them? Dead front gfci's by the panel? Thoughts?


put it on a afci gfci breaker:whistling2:


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## wadeco

end of dicussion


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## RIVETER

wadeco said:


> end of dicussion


Why did you say this?


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## wadeco

what do I need to say


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## RIVETER

wadeco said:


> what do I need to say


Why ...no more discussion?


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## MTW

wadeco said:


> end of dicussion


Thanks Cletis.


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