# 400 Volt motor on a 480 system



## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

Here's a picture cause everyone likes pictures. Tried to get a bit of the trainer in. But better views are in the enterprise thread.


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

Wirenuting said:


> Before I try to fire it up and run it, I was wondering if it might be smoked.
> 
> Thanks.


Megger it, including PI and DAR. Measure winding resistance also.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

Zog said:


> Megger it, including PI and DAR. Measure winding resistance also.


I can't today. My truck is in for oil change & I'm in a tiny pick-up all I have is basic belt. That's why I'm a grease monkey this week. 
But the old GE MCC bucket has o/l's for 24.4 amp protection , it is tripped and had been dialed up to 125% trip level. The motor was 12.4 fla so I'll call it history. 
There are 2 other units in here with original motors & they are 200/460. 
I gotta love co-workers. I'll let then hump the new motor up here.

Thanks anyway.


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

Wirenuting said:


> I can't today. My truck is in for oil change & I'm in a tiny pick-up all I have is basic belt. That's why I'm a grease monkey this week.
> But the old GE MCC bucket has o/l's for 24.4 amp protection , it is tripped and had been dialed up to 125% trip level. The motor was 12.4 fla so I'll call it history.
> There are 2 other units in here with original motors & they are 200/460.
> I gotta love co-workers. I'll let then hump the new motor up here.
> ...


How much actual current is the motor drawing? OL's could be bad.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

Zog said:


> How much actual current is the motor drawing? OL's could be bad.


I don't know as my meter is with my van in the shop. It's rated at 12.4. I'm heading back for lunch so I'll borrow the shop meter. 

Or I'll call DCC cause I'm low on make up so they should secure power. 

I hate an empty coffee pot. LoL


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

This motor may run for much longer than you think. I suggest to use it until it quits. But have a spare ready to take its place. Setting a transformer is not a good idea as they do not build 400/480 volt xfmr's standard. 
I also would not blame a coworker who might have had no choice but to use the 400 volt motor. 


I installed a 380 volt motor once in a 460 volt system and it still runs today. 10 plus years. Of course being a variable torque load helped alot.
Looks like you have a variable torque load too. This 400 volt motor may just be fine.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

John Valdes said:


> This motor may run for much longer than you think. I suggest to use it until it quits. But have a spare ready to take its place. Setting a transformer is not a good idea as they do not build 400/480 volt xfmr's standard.
> I also would not blame a coworker who might have had no choice but to use the 400 volt motor.
> 
> 
> ...


Code Violation. 110.4


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

John Valdes said:


> This motor may run for much longer than you think. I suggest to use it until it quits. But have a spare ready to take its place. Setting a transformer is not a good idea as they do not build 400/480 volt xfmr's standard.
> I also would not blame a coworker who might have had no choice but to use the 400 volt motor.
> 
> I installed a 380 volt motor once in a 460 volt system and it still runs today. 10 plus years. Of course being a variable torque load helped alot.
> Looks like you have a variable torque load too. This 400 volt motor may just be fine.


As I sit here in my shop eating lunch,, here is the rest of the story as filled in by a smarter co-worker. 
After the plumber installed the motor last year that had come in.. He had problems getting it started. My boss sent over a helper to take a look. The helper changed the o/l elements with some he found in an old MCC bucket there. He said every now and then he would stop by and reset all the tripped buckets in that MCC. He also turned the trip % dial up and everything was fine. 

After lunch I'll take the shop meter over there and put fire to it and see what happens. 

Oh the load is constant as it's a belt driven squirrel cage air handler. Just a reheat unit for the bay area.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Message to Bob bbq , or Raider, or somebody important. Can you please post something about 110.4 for me so the op will read about it....:whistling2:


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

macmikeman said:


> Message to Bob bbq , or Raider, or somebody important. Can you please post something about 110.4 for me so the op will read about it....:whistling2:


Are you talking about equipment, the motor, not being rated for the voltage supplied?


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

macmikeman said:


> Code Violation. 110.4


So if I connect a motor rated 230/460 and the supply is 480, I am non-compliant? I don't think so.

What about motors that are rated 230 and are run on 208, or visa versa? Its done every day.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Just read the section I posted. I didn't author it. 400 on a 480 v system is not the same as 230 run on a 208 system. A 230/460 v motor run on 480 meets nominal.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

macmikeman said:


> Just read the section I posted. I didn't author it.


I did read it. And you have a point. But what about the real world of motors? The NEC has zero jurisdiction over motor manufacturers. UL does. 
Is it a code violation to use a 230 or 130 volt incandescent lamp in a 120 volt socket? It is done all the time.
What about two light bulbs in series? Is that a violation?

I think in this matter common sense trumps anything else. Running that motor at 460/480 or whatever might be a NEC infraction, but in the real world it is going to be run until.


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

I would love to get my hands on a pair of those sound powered phones.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

John Valdes said:


> I did read it. And you have a point. But what about the real world of motors? The NEC has zero jurisdiction over motor manufacturers. UL does.
> Is it a code violation to use a 230 or 130 volt incandescent lamp in a 120 volt socket? It is done all the time.
> What about two light bulbs in series? Is that a violation?
> 
> I think in this matter common sense trumps anything else. Running that motor at 460/480 or whatever might be a NEC infraction, but in the real world it is going to be run until.


Hack:laughing::whistling2::whistling2:


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

macmikeman said:


> Hack:laughing::whistling2::whistling2:


Okay. JMO.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

400 volt motor +-10%= 440 v to 360 volt range. 40 volts low. I like how sometimes the industrial guys who think plastic nail on boxes are hack approve of running motors out of the range they are designed for. Maybe if they paint that motor blue it will be ok.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

Zog said:


> I would love to get my hands on a pair of those sound powered phones.


Me to. They demolished the old gunnersmate school not long ago. All the full sized working trainers went out the door. I walked thru just before the wreckers did. They made a documentary about it & I'm in it. I could have gotten some then as the contractor was happy to give everything away. But how cool to have a working growler for the wife to call me in my shop.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

macmikeman said:


> Just read the section I posted. I didn't author it. 400 on a 480 v system is not the same as 230 run on a 208 system. A 230/460 v motor run on 480 meets nominal.


I agree and since this isn't a design issue the motor there now is wrong. 

I did ring it out just now and it's smoked. Dead to ground. So a new one has to be ordered. 
There are 2 others in this space and they are both 230/460 volt motors,, still OEM and about 20 years old.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

macmikeman said:


> 400 volt motor +-10%= 440 v to 360 volt range. 40 volts low. I like how sometimes the industrial guys who think plastic nail on boxes are hack approve of running motors out of the range they are designed for. Maybe if they paint that motor blue it will be ok.


It ain't blue but it hangs by 3/4 inch all thread.


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

Wirenuting said:


> I agree and since this isn't a design issue the motor there now is wrong.
> 
> I did ring it out just now and it's smoked. Dead to ground. So a new one has to be ordered.
> There are 2 others in this space and they are both 230/460 volt motors,, still OEM and about 20 years old.


I'm surprised you had to ring it out..most times you can tell by the smell. 

And thanks for the pics, I love seeing the stuff used "shipboard".:thumbup:


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

mxslick said:


> I'm surprised you had to ring it out..most times you can tell by the smell.
> 
> And thanks for the pics, I love seeing the stuff used "shipboard".:thumbup:


It was replaced about a year ago. I'm the first to climb back up here and find it off. Its been down about a year. 
I did do the sniff test but everything in here smells like jet fuel and grease. 
It's a gas turbine ship a guided missile destroyer. The pics in the enterprise thread is me looking down from were the motor is to the water break.


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## millelec (Nov 20, 2010)

Wirenuting said:


> Me to. They demolished the old gunnersmate school not long ago. All the full sized working trainers went out the door. I walked thru just before the wreckers did. They made a documentary about it & I'm in it. I could have gotten some then as the contractor was happy to give everything away. But how cool to have a working growler for the wife to call me in my shop.


Yeah. saw the 2JV there, wanted to pick it up and say "maneuvering, electrical operator" ...wow


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

macmikeman said:


> Code Violation. 110.4


Screw that. Under some conditions I would not think twice about putting a 400 volt rated motor on 480 and running till it dies.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Jlarson said:


> Screw that. Under some conditions I would not think twice about putting a 400 volt rated motor on 480 and running till it dies.


Like I said, code violation. I'm not your inspector, you get to do whatever you like as far as I am concerned, I'm just doing my job reporting here that it is a code violation whether you want to violate it or not. I stuff two cables thru one hole in a multigang nonmetallic switch box with no regard for anybody cause I know it is of zero consequence to the wiring. Some peons go to the white book and find problems with that also. They make a big fuss on the forum and it goes on for pages and pages. What makes a hack a hack? I'm beginning to think that it must be somebody who does rope work vs. the types who work inside machinery rooms. Industrial guys get to do anything.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

macmikeman said:


> Industrial guys get to do anything.


Lies, one plant wouldn't let me take one of their golf carts for a joy ride. :laughing:


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## Motorwinder (Dec 30, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> Screw that. Under some conditions I would not think twice about putting a 400 volt rated motor on 480 and running till it dies.


Hell yea, keeps me in a job.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

No question connecting a 400 volt motor to a 480 system is a code violation.

Probably cannot cite 110.3(B) as many motors are not listed.

But there is no doubt this applies.



> 110.4 Voltages. Throughout this Code, the voltage considered
> shall be that at which the circuit operates. The voltage
> rating of electrical equipment *shall not be less than the
> nominal voltage of a circuit to which it is connected.*


The tag on the motor needs to be 460.












Do whatever the hell you want but I would get a great laugh if you had to redo your work. :laughing:


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

millelec said:


> Yeah. saw the 2JV there, wanted to pick it up and say "maneuvering, electrical operator" ...wow


Old habits die hard. :thumbsup:


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## Jefro (Jul 28, 2009)

Wirenuting said:


> I don't know as my meter is with my van in the shop. It's rated at 12.4. I'm heading back for lunch so I'll borrow the shop meter.
> 
> Or I'll call DCC cause I'm low on make up so they should secure power.
> 
> I hate an empty coffee pot. LoL


Gas turbines making steam with waste heat? That the feedwater unit I see?


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

Jefro said:


> Gas turbines making steam with waste heat? That the feedwater unit I see?


I think so?? Feed water make up yes, gas turbine , yes. 

Ahh,, Mount 51 bridge,, request permission to fire rapid continuous. 

All I know about the engine room is,,, never go there and ask for the biggest BT punch they got.


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## Jefro (Jul 28, 2009)

Wirenuting said:


> I think so?? Feed water make up yes, gas turbine , yes.
> 
> Ahh,, Mount 51 bridge,, request permission to fire rapid continuous.
> 
> All I know about the engine room is,,, never go there and ask for the biggest BT punch they got.


I heard some if those BT1s can be pretty big...


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

Jefro said:


> I heard some if those BT1s can be pretty big...


So I heard. LoL
Gas turbine was after my day. To new fangle to turn a key and go.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

Jefro said:


> I heard some if those BT1s can be pretty big...


But I can Excape.


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## Greg (Aug 1, 2007)

You need to set "X-Ray" and the brass on the j-box covers need to be polished. LOL


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## Jefro (Jul 28, 2009)

Wirenuting said:


> But I can Excape.


I can't.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

Greg said:


> You need to set "X-Ray" and the brass on the j-box covers need to be polished. LOL


I had a heck of a time getting it open. It was painted over with nonskid. And your right, I didn't dog it down. 
Got some never dull?


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

Jefro said:


> I can't.


That's great. . .


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## Jefro (Jul 28, 2009)

Wirenuting said:


> That's great. . .


And there's a dude passed out in my cooling tower!


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