# Squirrelly Local Codes



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Generally, local codes seem to be written by ignorant electricians with stupid ideas on how things work. In my opinion, the death penalty would be in order here.:no:


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## jelhill (Nov 11, 2018)

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brian john said:


> Generally, local codes seem to be written by ignorant electricians with stupid ideas on how things work. In my opinion, the death penalty would be in order here.:no:


Amen! How about this one: The city I live in does not allow grounding screws in metallic JB’s, raceways, etc. They require you to use commercial grounding pigtails only. Picky, picky... Think how much fun it is to go back and change those on a big job!


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

What is a "commercial grounding pigtail"? 

I may be wrong here, but pigtails are not listed, correct? So there is no legal difference between some other company making grounding pigtails and your company making grounding pigtails, correct?

That is just insane, it makes no sense. Do they make you use those pre-made pigtails to attach to each device? No, right? So what's the purpose of using it when attaching it the box?


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

We have one here, subject to damage is anything below 8'.

On one hand it makes it easy to interpret what "Subject to Damage" is, but it can be a PITA at times.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Switched said:


> We have one here, subject to damage is anything below 8'.
> 
> On one hand it makes it easy to interpret what "Subject to Damage" is, but it can be a PITA at times.


So you have to build a wall or box around the top of a panel to protect those cables coming out? I think Macmikeman said they have to do that on that crappy island he lives on.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

We don't have squirrelly local codes.

NJ is normally a horrible state, but they do the code thing pretty well. We have a Uniform Construction Code thruout the state which not only means that you need 1 contractor license to work anywhere int he state, but you also follow 1 code. For electric, the state adopts the NEC with very few amendments, and oddly enough the changes are usually less restrictive. Such as not requiring AFCI's for years after the NEC required them.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

HackWork said:


> So you have to build a wall or box around the top of a panel to protect those cables coming out? I think Macmikeman said they have to do that on that crappy island he lives on.


Yep. All those installations you guys post with panels in basements and the NM cables and MC cables coming out of them, none of that would fly here. 

We can't run MC-Cable anywhere that is subject to damage either. So if some guy wants an outlet installed in his garage, it all has to be piped in, can't just simply snake some cable through the framing.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

HackWork said:


> We don't have squirrelly local codes.
> 
> NJ is normally a horrible state, but they do the code thing pretty well. We have a Uniform Construction Code thruout the state which not only means that you need 1 contractor license to work anywhere int he state, but you also follow 1 code. For electric, the state adopts the NEC with very few amendments, and oddly enough the changes are usually less restrictive. Such as not requiring AFCI's for years after the NEC required them.


I like the idea of that "Rehab" code you guys have, or whatever it is called.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Of all the "squirrelly local codes", upon investigation you will often find that at least half of them are not local codes at all. They're some inspector's wild idea that began to be enforced or it is something so steeped in tradition that everyone assumes it's local code. Every time I hear "the inspector's won't let us do xyz in my area", or "That's against code in my area", my skin begins to crawl because I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that this is so often not true at all, but people think it is. When prompted for the link to the local code amendment, more often than not the person finds there is no such rule.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

jelhill said:


> ```
> 
> ```
> Amen! How about this one: The city I live in does not allow grounding screws in metallic JB’s, raceways, etc. They require you to use commercial grounding pigtails only. Picky, picky... Think how much fun it is to go back and change those on a big job!


Code citation, please. lain:


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

Florida did a great job with this subject. If a local jurisdiction wants an amendment, they have to:
1) Justify why the amendment is necessary in that jurisdiction but not in other jurisdictions in the state due to the jurisdiction being geographically unique (a tough bar to make).
2) Submit it as a revision into the next edition of the code, and,
3) Expire it upon the effective date of the next code edition.


In essence, there are no local amendments.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

Here is the amendments for SF where I work.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

SanFran was one of the places famous for the purple high leg.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

San Fran requires all electrician to wear capri style pants and fashion their hair into a man-bun. For safety.


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## stiffneck (Nov 8, 2015)

brian john said:


> Generally, local codes seem to be written by ignorant electricians with stupid ideas on how things work. In my opinion, the death penalty would be in order here.:no:


Not always "electricians" but ignorant "electrical inspectors" that have little to no experience/education doing electrical work :yes:


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Any local amendments should enhance the safety of the installation. If the amendment does nothing to enhance safety, I can't really support it. For things like a single disconnect instead of the max of 6, I can see how that might enhance the safety of the installation in a fire or gas leak emergency. In the case of a purple high leg, I can see how that might avoid confusion between the high leg and the B phase of 480. In the case of a commercially made grounding pigtail instead of a midspan strip of the green wire in the MC cable wrapped around a ground screw.. that's a bunch of horse sheeite and does nothing to enhance the safety of the installation.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

HackWork said:


> San Fran requires all electrician to wear capri style pants and fashion their hair into a man-bun. For safety.


Wrong.

All workers must use full length water resistant pants with built in knee pads for protection.:surprise:


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

And what of chaps?


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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

To the OP, we have a "cite it, write it" rule in Oregon that inspectors must write down the code article when citing a violation. 





MDShunk said:


> Any local amendments should enhance the safety of the installation. If the amendment does nothing to enhance safety, I can't really support it.



Oregon has a state amendment still allowing 3 wire feeders assuming you meet all the guidelines, no other nonconductive paths, etc.


Do I think this enhances safety? No.
Do I think this amendment makes sense when used correctly? Absolutely.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

telsa said:


> And what of chaps?


Chaps are an exception under the "Uniform Dress Code", section 23.4, Note 2


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Cow said:


> Do I think this enhances safety? No.
> Do I think this amendment makes sense when used correctly? Absolutely.


It certainly makes your job easier a lot of the time, at least.


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## stiffneck (Nov 8, 2015)

Starting back in the 1990's the Cit-ay of Saint Louis has this requirement. "When" a residency changes hands (new owner/renter) any bathroom receptacle is to be GFI protected. Most single/two/four family dwellings where built between 1880 and 1960. So few if any have an outlet box, just a light/outlet fixture above the sink and a switch. This rule then necessitate a minimum of disconnecting/disabling that outlet that was built into the light fixture, or installing GFI protection ahead of this light outlet. At the time, an inspector against it said this to me; "That it's wrong to make some 80yr old fixed income widow pay to have this done, because the upstairs 80yr old tenant died and she now has a new 80yr old tenant moved in." Any of you for or against this requirement? The person who initiated this ordinance is on "Code-Making Panel NO. 6" of current NEC.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Cow said:


> To the OP, we have a "cite it, write it" rule in Oregon that inspectors must write down the code article when citing a violation.


That's a good rule. 

My all time worst experience with an electrical inspector (for a stupid lighted plastic store sign) was when I asked for a code citation. He came completely unglued in a way that I've seldom seen men get. Never did get my code citation. That job is technically in violation maybe 15 years later and the sign is still lit up.


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## Unionpride277 (Oct 31, 2018)

HackWork said:


> We don't have squirrelly local codes.
> 
> NJ is normally a horrible state, but they do the code thing pretty well. We have a Uniform Construction Code thruout the state which not only means that you need 1 contractor license to work anywhere int he state, but you also follow 1 code. For electric, the state adopts the NEC with very few amendments, and oddly enough the changes are usually less restrictive. Such as not requiring AFCI's for years after the NEC required them.


The things I see guys from diff states get hit on when they work in the garden state is . 

Using batwings to support mc to suspended ceiling grid .

Emergency lights and exits not on same circuit as the lighting in the general space . ( with under 3 circuits)

Not using a 2 pole breaker for a mwb’c


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## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

In the central NJ area that I started in I remember two towns that required the services to be in rigid. It may have only been the driveway side. The towns were New Brunswick and maybe South Amboy or Perth Amboy. It kinda makes sense because a lot of those houses are separated by only a driveway. 

I don't think schedule PVC schedule 80 was allowed. I don't think you can get a schedule 80 LB. 

I also remember the town of Dunellen requiring an oil burner switch next to a basement window nearest the fill tube. It was explained to me years later by Wirenuting that the people used to leave the basement window unlocked so the delivery guy could shut it off when filling. But Dunellen must have used it for firemen to smash the window and shut off the oil burner. It was also the only town I can ever remember requiring a red breaker with lock for a separate circuit for residential fire alarm. At that time I don't think they required battery backup. 

That was years ago when I first started, but I think these were local requirements


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

cabletie said:


> In the central NJ area that I started in I remember two towns that required the services to be in rigid. It may have only been the driveway side. The towns were New Brunswick and maybe South Amboy or Perth Amboy. It kinda makes sense because a lot of those houses are separated by only a driveway.
> 
> I don't think schedule PVC schedule 80 was allowed. I don't think you can get a schedule 80 LB.


 I don't believe LB's are rated in normal PVC thickness. I remember looking into this but I forget what I came up with because no inspector ever gave me problems with it.



> I also remember the town of Dunellen requiring an oil burner switch next to a basement window nearest the fill tube. It was explained to me years later by Wirenuting that the people used to leave the basement window unlocked so the delivery guy could shut it off when filling. But Dunellen must have used it for firemen to smash the window and shut off the oil burner. It was also the only town I can ever remember requiring a red breaker with lock for a separate circuit for residential fire alarm. At that time I don't think they required battery backup.
> 
> That was years ago when I first started, but I think these were local requirements


The switch for furnaces is part of the fire code. Maybe the red breaker with a lock was too? The fire code is allowed to be amended locally as far as I know.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Unionpride277 said:


> The things I see guys from diff states get hit on when they work in the garden state is .
> 
> Using batwings to support mc to suspended ceiling grid .
> 
> ...


I do not believe those are NK amendments.

I believe it was the 2008 NEC that made the requirement for a 2-pole breaker or handle tie for MWBC, that is required everywhere that goes by the NEC.

Not sure about the emergency lights thing. And as far as not supporting MC by ceiling hanger wire that is supporting the ceiling, I forget the code on that as well.


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

I never saw a service riser that was anything but ridged until I went up north. Between the sun and the wind here a PVC riser isn't going to be performing very well. Code or no code, we don't use PVC risers on a service.


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## jelhill (Nov 11, 2018)

MDShunk said:


> Code citation, please. lain:



I’m sure you are right... it is something that the chief electrical inspector demands but he could never show it to you in writing.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MikeFL said:


> I never saw a service riser that was anything but ridged until I went up north. Between the sun and the wind here a PVC riser isn't going to be performing very well. Code or no code, we don't use PVC risers on a service.


Is your sun different than ours? 

Wind? I would think that any wind that could take a little 2" pipe off a house would take the house with it.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

We can do risers in PVC as long as the attachment point isn't to the pipe, otherwise it is all IMC/GRC. I don't think I see anyone using PVC for a service ever though, it is always done in IMC/GRC.


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## jelhill (Nov 11, 2018)

Switched said:


> Yep. All those installations you guys post with panels in basements and the NM cables and MC cables coming out of them, none of that would fly here.
> 
> We can't run MC-Cable anywhere that is subject to damage either. So if some guy wants an outlet installed in his garage, it all has to be piped in, can't just simply snake some cable through the framing.


Our MC can’t be exposed either. A lot of stuff gets overlooked on the residential side.... you get the feeling that they just want their permit money.


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

HackWork said:


> Is your sun different than ours?
> 
> Wind? I would think that any wind that could take a little 2" pipe off a house would take the house with it.



It's the same star but it's straight overhead instead of 15 degrees south towards the horizon on June 21 like it is where you are. Come on down and work on a mod bit roof in the summer and you'll know what it's like. You could cook a roast up there. Attics are nice because at least you're out of the sun.



It used to be nothing to get afternoon storms with winds of 90 mph. I haven't seen that in a while though. 



Keep in mind that little 2" pipe has a service drop attached to it, swinging in the wind, and being impacted by tree branches, trash cans and picnic tables, etc. Not that rigid risers don't get bent, they do, but they last longer than PVC.


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## JoeSparky (Mar 25, 2010)

Got burned in a MA city once. Local code required a main outside. Found out after I replaced the service:vs_mad:


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

JoeSparky said:


> Got burned in a MA city once. Local code required a main outside. Found out after I replaced the service:vs_mad:


I totally missed a job spec that required a main outdoors and it cost me the entire profit on the job. It was a damned old barn on a college campus that they restored. They wanted a main outdoors with a 12x18 red plastic sign with white letters that said "Firefighters Disconnect". The stupid sign cost 100 bucks, much less the Disco and having to go back and rework the whole thing. Ah well, the site engineer was super cool about it.


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

MDShunk said:


> SanFran was one of the places famous for the purple high leg.


I believe that was lavender, not purple.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

HackWork said:


> And as far as not supporting MC by ceiling hanger wire that is supporting the ceiling, I forget the code on that as well.


I think that was added in the 2008, 300.11 requires independent support, can't tag along on the ceiling supports.


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

None of the local jurisdictions have any amendments dealing with squirrels, but they have been discussing moose proof meter sockets.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)




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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

HackWork said:


> I do not believe those are NK amendments.
> 
> I believe it was the 2008 NEC that made the requirement for a 2-pole breaker or handle tie for MWBC, that is required everywhere that goes by the NEC.
> 
> Not sure about the emergency lights thing. And as far as not supporting MC by ceiling hanger wire that is supporting the ceiling, I forget the code on that as well.


There's a back-story here.

The rule shift was triggered by a California earthquake, now so many, I forgot which one. What had happened was that the falling grid -- via bat wings -- started to hang tough by stretching open the MC that led to the fixtures.

So they came up with the notion that EXTRA drop wires not associated with the grid ought to be exclusively used for such attachments.

But, then, it occurred to many that such #12 steel wires needed to be wrapped to the grid -- even so.

Which defeats the original premise, don't you think?

You just end up with more #12 drops running to the grid. To keep our inspectors happy we end up spraying _our_ #12 drops some odd color. ( green and orange are way popular )

What is really needed is some drop-wire-scheme that lets the grid fall away once the stress has gone critical. That way the grid doesn't ever pull the MC apart. 

BTW, during the earthquake that triggered this, the MC energized the grid providing the fire boys plenty of hot times in the ol' town that day.

:surprise:

The current was not enough to trip a breaker, the grid work was hanging off the ceiling, the fire crew was shuffling through a sodden mire of broken glass and debris.

My cure: kill the power to the building before wading in, LED 'headlamps' for the fire fighting crew.


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## jelhill (Nov 11, 2018)

brian john said:


> Generally, local codes seem to be written by ignorant electricians with stupid ideas on how things work. In my opinion, the death penalty would be in order here.:no:



Speaking of ignorant electricians, I was called to a new house where an entire bedroom receptacle circuit was not working and the original jackleg would not come back and fix it. Turns out that he breezed through both inspections without ever installing a home run for that circuit.


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