# Adding a EGC to an existing 2 wire circuit



## Service Call (Jul 9, 2011)

What is the legal and or preferred method of adding an EGC to the receptacles in a house. I read 250.130(C) in the 2011 and I understand it to say I can run a branch circuit ground to just about any grounding electrode. 

Is this correct?


Sent from my house using 2 cans and a string!


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

Service Call said:


> What is the legal and or preferred method of adding an EGC to the receptacles in a house. I read 250.130(C) in the 2011 and I understand it to say I can run a branch circuit ground to just about any grounding electrode.
> 
> Is this correct?
> 
> ...


250.130(C) is not allowed here...We must either use a 2 wire receptacle or replace the circuit.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

250.130(C) does not address the addition of JUST an EGC to ground a receptacle.

From the NECHB:

Section 250.130(C) applies to both ungrounded and grounded systems, but its most common application is for receptacle replacement of branch-circuit extensions in single-phase, 120-volt, 15- and 20-ampere branch circuits, which are required to be supplied by a grounded system per 250.20(B). This section permits a nongrounding-type receptacle to be replaced with a grounding-type receptacle under the following conditions:
1. The branch circuit does not contain an equipment ground.
2. An existing branch circuit is being extended for additional receptacle outlets.
3. An EGC is connected from the receptacle grounding terminal to any accessible point on the grounding electrode system, to any accessible point on the grounding electrode conductor, to the grounded service conductor within the service equipment enclosure, to the equipment grounding terminal bar in the enclosure from which the circuit is supplied, or to an EGC that is part of another branch circuit that originates from the same enclosure where the branch circuit for the receptacle originates.
The requirement in 250.68(C)(1) does not permit this separate EGC to be connected to the metal water piping of a building or structure beyond the first 5 feet of where the piping enters the building or structure unless the conditions of the exception to 250.68(C)(1) can be met.

I have, however, installed miles of green 14 and 12 THHN from existing 2-slot receps to a nearby metallic raceway, box, panel, grounded circuit, etc. to install grounded receps..... with no mention of it from any inspector.


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

480sparky said:


> 250.130(C) does not address the addition of JUST an EGC to ground a receptacle.
> 
> From the NECHB:
> 
> ...


i must have missed something, you can replace an ungrounded rec with a grounded rec. ..


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

holy cow, batman! just looked that up. and its o.k. to replace a non-grounded rec with a grounded rec. lets see that fly by any inspector i ever met!:001_huh::001_huh:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

papaotis said:


> i must have missed something, you can replace an ungrounded rec with a grounded rec. ..


You can EXTEND an ungrounded circuit to a new, grounded recep if you pick up a ground somewhere in the structure (if the ground originates in the same panel as the circuit you're extending).

250.130(C) does _not_ address adding JUST an EGC.



papaotis said:


> holy cow, batman! just looked that up. and its o.k. to replace a non-grounded rec with a grounded rec. lets see that fly by any inspector i ever met!:001_huh::001_huh:



You guys must not read well. Try it again.

Section 250.130(C) applies to both ungrounded and grounded systems, but its most common application is for receptacle replacement of branch-circuit extensions in single-phase, 120-volt, 15- and 20-ampere branch circuits, which are required to be supplied by a grounded system per 250.20(B). *This section permits a nongrounding-type receptacle to be replaced with a **grounding-type receptacle under the following conditions:
*_*1. The branch circuit does not contain an equipment ground.
*__*2. An existing branch circuit is being extended for additional *__*receptacle outlets.*
__*3. An EGC is connected from the receptacle grounding terminal *__*to any accessible point on the grounding electrode system*,_ to any accessible point on the grounding electrode conductor, to the grounded service conductor within the service equipment enclosure, to the equipment grounding terminal bar in the enclosure from which the circuit is supplied, or to an EGC that is part of another branch circuit that originates from the same enclosure where the branch circuit for the receptacle originates.
The requirement in 250.68(C)(1) does not permit this separate EGC to be connected to the metal water piping of a building or structure beyond the first 5 feet of where the piping enters the building or structure unless the conditions of the exception to 250.68(C)(1) can be met.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Service Call said:


> What is the legal and or preferred method of adding an EGC to the receptacles in a house. I read 250.130(C) in the 2011 and I understand it to say I can run a branch circuit ground to just about any grounding electrode.
> 
> Is this correct?
> 
> ...


Yes you can run an equipment grounding conductor and connect it to any place along the grounding electrode conductor or the grounding electrode system.

Remember if you connect to a water pipe then you must connect to the pie within 5' of entering the building.


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

again, i must be missing something, ive had a rough couple days(mostly my head stuck in my ass) but 31 clearly states 'on an ungrounded' right?


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

just read it again and dont seew here it allows the replacement of an ungrounded rec with a grounded rec. im looking at the 2011, did it change? the other book is in the truck.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Maybe this will help


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## Service Call (Jul 9, 2011)

This is a requirement of the insurance company, that all receptacles in the house must have a ground. Curious as to how the best way to do it. 


Sent from my house using 2 cans and a string!


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## Service Call (Jul 9, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Yes you can run an equipment grounding conductor and connect it to any place along the grounding electrode conductor or the grounding electrode system.
> 
> 
> 
> Remember if you connect to a water pipe then you must connect to the pie within 5' of entering the building.



I was going to run it back to the panel. 


Sent from my house using 2 cans and a string!


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Service Call said:


> This is a requirement of the insurance company, that all receptacles in the house must have a ground. Curious as to how the best way to do it.
> 
> Sent from my house using 2 cans and a string!


I wonder why they would require that. Grounding all the receps won't mitigate any liability for them.

More likely, it's due to some uneducated, mid-level actuary.


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## Service Call (Jul 9, 2011)

480sparky said:


> I wonder why they would require that. Grounding all the receps won't mitigate any liability for them.
> 
> More likely, it's due to some uneducated, mid-level actuary.



Just another way for the insurance companies not to have to insure a house near the ocean


Sent from my house using 2 cans and a string!


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Service Call said:


> Just another way for the insurance companies not to have to insure a house near the ocean
> 
> 
> Sent from my house using 2 cans and a string!



They're more than happy to insure it. This means they collect the payments.

It's so they don't have to pay on the claim. :whistling2:


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Service Call said:


> This is a requirement of the insurance company, that all receptacles in the house must have a ground. Curious as to how the best way to do it.
> 
> 
> Sent from my house using 2 cans and a string!



I don't suppose 406.4(D)(2) would mean much to them....?

~CS~


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## mikewillnot (Apr 2, 2013)

I understood that (to simplify) you can replace an ungrounded receptacle with a grounded one if the new one is a GFCI (or the circuit is GFCI protected) and you label it "no equipment ground."


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## IEC (Sep 20, 2015)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Yes you can run an equipment grounding conductor and connect it to any place along the grounding electrode conductor or the grounding electrode system.
> 
> Remember if you connect to a water pipe then you must connect to the pie within 5' of entering the building.


Question lateral to the OP:

I recently came across a commercial job that was all pipe. There isn't a single ground wire in the structure - not at the recepts, not in the panel, not in the meter base. It's all single phase 240. I was to add a few switches for some new lights and a few convenience receptacles. All the existing recepts are grounding type (again, no bond, no ground). 

The business owners rent the building and did not want to pay for an upgrade other than their tenant space needs. I called the building owner with an estimate to install an EGC throughout but they aren't willing to spend any money to do so. Personally, I think they are afraid of what will happen when the inspector comes in: this place is hardly to code in any area. 

I studied 250.130 until I was blue in the face and finally decided to:

Tap a 1/4-20 to my first junction box and install a lug;
Tap a 1/4-20 to building steel and install a lug;
Connect the two lugs with 12 str and add a bonding jumper from the box to my new wiring with a grounding pigtail. 
Almost like we do with an SDS. It's the only solution I could come up with that would make it safe without funding to do it right.

Kosher or no? What would you have done? Question is for everyone, I just quoted Dennis for convenience.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

If the piping is emt then you only needed to connect to the box. Article 358.60



> 358.60 Grounding. EMT shall be permitted as an equipment
> grounding conductor


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## IEC (Sep 20, 2015)

Dennis Alwon said:


> If the piping is emt then you only needed to connect to the box. Article 358.60


Yeah, but I hate relying on the presumption that all the locknuts are tight or even installed at all. And our city does not allow emt to be used as the sole means of grounding. 

I wouldn't have been so anal about it but it is wood framing throughout. 

Thanks for the reply.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

IEC said:


> Question lateral to the OP:
> 
> I recently came across a commercial job that was all pipe. There isn't a single ground wire in the structure - not at the recepts, not in the panel, not in the meter base. It's all single phase 240. I was to add a few switches for some new lights and a few convenience receptacles. All the existing recepts are grounding type (again, no bond, no ground).
> 
> ...


Why would you bother pulling a green wire on a pipe job?
I have installed plenty of EMT jobs and never brought a single roll of green wire on the job. Just use automatic ground devices and you are good to go.


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## IEC (Sep 20, 2015)

jrannis said:


> Why would you bother pulling a green wire on a pipe job?
> I have installed plenty of EMT jobs and never brought a single roll of green wire on the job. Just use automatic ground devices and you are good to go.


I guess because it is a completely foreign concept to me. I have never, ever been on a commercial job where we were allowed to use the raceway as the grounding electrode. Likewise, I have never once worked under anyone that didn't put a ground in pipe, regardless of the type (unless it was double nutted GRC with bond bushings). 

Maybe it is just a Phoenix thing, which is where I learned 95% of the (admittedly limited) knowledge I have. I've always known that emt is suitable as an EGC, but I figured there had to be a reason I wasn't aware of that it was forbidden. 

And, to be completely honest, it seems like a cheesy way to do things. I'm not at all judging your installation technique. It just seems as if the continuity of the grounding electrode rests solely on the conductive path held together with... a locknut. I'm not sure I can wrap my head around that.

And in this case, there was no Ufer, no rod, no bond of any kind unless you count the screws holding the panel to the perlene. That too is something new to me. 

Always learning, bro. Always learning.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

IEC said:


> I guess because it is a completely foreign concept to me. I have never, ever been on a commercial job where we were allowed to use the raceway as the grounding electrode..........



That's 'cuz you can't use the raceway as a grounding electrode. :no:


















You CAN, however, use it as a grounding_ conductor_.


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## IEC (Sep 20, 2015)

LOL. Woops. Good catch. 

_It's not a clip! It's a damn magazine! Get it right!_

[slaps self on wrist]


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

IEC said:


> I guess because it is a completely foreign concept to me. I have never, ever been on a commercial job where we were allowed to use the raceway as the grounding electrode. Likewise, I have never once worked under anyone that didn't put a ground in pipe, regardless of the type (unless it was double nutted GRC with bond bushings).
> 
> Maybe it is just a Phoenix thing, which is where I learned 95% of the (admittedly limited) knowledge I have. I've always known that emt is suitable as an EGC, but I figured there had to be a reason I wasn't aware of that it was forbidden.
> 
> ...


Either you learn to install your projects using the NEC or not, it is your choice. :thumbsup:
As for me and my shop we shall follow the NFPA 70


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

IEC said:


> ......And, to be completely honest, it seems like a cheesy way to do things. ...............


And to be completely honest, studies have shown that EMT is a much better grounding conductor than a wire.

Loose locknuts and all.


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