# Doing a hot overhead service connection



## VELOCI3 (Aug 15, 2019)

Thirty-eight said:


> Is it common practice to do this in your area?



Your bio says you are an electrical contractor. What type of work do you specialize in?


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## Thirty-eight (Mar 2, 2020)

VELOCI3 said:


> Your bio says you are an electrical contractor. What type of work do you specialize in?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


New construction, custom homes.


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## Kevin (Feb 14, 2017)

@HackWork I think this is your area of specialty...


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## Thirty-eight (Mar 2, 2020)

I’m not a home owner guys, I’m honestly just curious with how safety cautious everything is lately. In the early 2000’s I did one a week doing service changes then I moved to an area where it’s 99% underground, and I recently found a 1% house and it’s gonna be sketchy.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

With all the new safety requirements, which is a growing list, electricians will not be able to work anymore. I am constantly looking over my shoulder for people with a cell phone camera taking a picture of what we should not be doing.


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## JoeSparky (Mar 25, 2010)

Cake. 
Hots 1st, neutral last - with the meter out! Use these and an allen head driver in your impact driver to tighten it in the air. You can preinstall them on the dead side first. I typically just use tape to insulate them.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Kevin_Essiambre said:


> @HackWork I think this is your area of specialty...


Nah, let's let wcord post his stupidity again, and then flyboy tell me that I am wrong and should admit to it.


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## Signal1 (Feb 10, 2016)

It's easy. Take your time and do like @JoeSparky said.

Get the snap-on covers if you can find them, or use rubber, just get it ready first, hang some strips on the ladder.

If the triplex drop looks like it might unravel put a ty-rap on it first.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Not me. That’s the utility guy’s job.


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## Kevin (Feb 14, 2017)

99cents said:


> Not me. That’s the utility guy’s job.


I'd do them if we were permitted. POCO charges $600 in Ottawa (for basic resi)... that money could be ours if they let us.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Kevin_Essiambre said:


> I'd do them if we were permitted. POCO charges $600 in Ottawa (for basic resi)... that money could be ours if they let us.


The first thing that I want to say is how crazy $600 is.

But then thinking about it, and how workers aren't supposed to work live and all that, I think that price is accurate.

Not that there would be any reason to do it in itself, but if a customer called me to disconnect their energized service and then come back to reconnect, I would want at least $300 each time. Especially having to handle an extension ladder twice.


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## Signal1 (Feb 10, 2016)

HackWork said:


> The first thing that I want to say is how crazy $600 is.
> 
> But then thinking about it, and how workers aren't supposed to work live and all that, I think that price is accurate.
> 
> Not that there would be any reason to do it in itself, but if a customer called me to disconnect their energized service and then come back to reconnect, I would want at least $300 each time. Especially having to handle an extension ladder twice.


You should put that on craigslist


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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

Thirty-eight said:


> Is it common practice to do this in your area?


No, and we deal with about six different utilities.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

The POCO disconnects and reconnect the same day for free.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

Here it is not common practice, and they will string you up if they catch you. Three different POCO's here that I deal with, only one charges a fee for disconnect reconnects.


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## VELOCI3 (Aug 15, 2019)

Cut the overhead. Splice on an extension cord to run temp power for lights and tools. Demo service. Install new service. Reconnect. 


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

99cents said:


> Not me. That’s the utility guy’s job.


You know, you might find yourself doing exactly that on a farm one day. Sure you could turn the main off first. If you were scared.....


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

Switched said:


> Here it is not common practice, and they will string you up if they catch you. Three different POCO's here that I deal with, only one charges a fee for disconnect reconnects.


3? SCE, DWP, and who else?


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## Thirty-eight (Mar 2, 2020)

VELOCI3 said:


> Cut the overhead. Splice on an extension cord to run temp power for lights and tools. Demo service. Install new service. Reconnect.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That’s the way we did back in the day. :smile:


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

joe-nwt said:


> You know, you might find yourself doing exactly that on a farm one day. Sure you could turn the main off first. If you were scared.....


Farms are different. They power up a house, a barn, a mobile home, a shop, a couple of outbuildings and a hot tub off an old, rusty 100A FPE breaker.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

VELOCI3 said:


> Cut the overhead. Splice on an extension cord to run temp power for lights and tools. Demo service. Install new service. Reconnect.





Thirty-eight said:


> That’s the way we did back in the day. :smile:


Nowadays we use battery tools so we don't even make temp power.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Here, 20 yrs ago, we could do it no problem or the utility would come out for free and do it for us. 
Now we are not allowed to do it and the utility charges us. Sometimes it’s $300, sometimes it’s $800, all depends on where and how they need to disconnect it.


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

yeah I'd always cut loose and reconnect, at first was split bolts and poco would come at their convenience to crimp, later on started using H-crimps and all they had to do was install seal

but not no more, got fussed out for the last few meters I pulled and now try to avoid it

but both inspector and poco dropped the ball on the last changeout I did, waited 2 1/2 hrs for inspector followed by 5 hour wait for poco (had exact times scheduled with both since it was a weekend job so I knew would be ready Monday morning)

So am considering cutting the next one loose and see what happens, I asked the lineman (delay was partly his fault) "how long would it have taken you to come if I'd pulled the {smart} meter?"


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I couldn’t imagine having to work around the schedules of both the municipal inspector and the power company.

Our inspectors are part time and my customers have a year to get an inspection.


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## VELOCI3 (Aug 15, 2019)

HackWork said:


> I couldn’t imagine having to work around the schedules of both the municipal inspector and the power company.
> 
> Our inspectors are part time and my customers have a year to get an inspection.



I scheduled for a final Monday and he showed up today. Walked him through and after looking at everything he said. “I thought you guys made a mistake on your affidavit of cost on my way over. You have a 1600 amp feeder and 3 smoke heads listed for $400,000. Now I understand”


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## joab (Dec 28, 2019)

HackWork said:


> I couldn’t imagine having to work around the schedules of both the municipal inspector and the power company.
> 
> 
> 
> Our inspectors are part time and my customers have a year to get an inspection.


You have no idea...

One of our utilities doesn't allow us to talk to local management anymore, we have to call the 800 number and talk to someone 3 hours away. The corporate phone girls refuse to schedule a reconnect until the service is complete and ready for power, including an inspectors certificate. It's "policy".

Luckily, most of the linemen are pretty decent guys. Most of the time they ask us what time we think we'll be ready for power, and drop through about that time. If it's ready for power, they'll connect it and take care of the work order when it comes through.

The Inspectors are generally okay with everything not being 100% on a service change. As long as the majority of the installation is in and they can see what we're doing, they'll send in the certificate and let us put on covers, land the rest of the conductors, etc.. after they're gone.

Scheduling is normal done 3-4 weeks ahead of time.

Yeah, it's a pain.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

We do all of the work, then tell the customer to get the inspection at their convenience. After the inspection the inspector takes a week or two to send the cut-in card to the PoCo, who then takes a month or 8 to come re-splice it and replace the overhead line if necessary.


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## Helmut (May 7, 2014)

Here it's 3 weeks to wait for the PC to disconnect or connect.

We don't wait.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

Helmut said:


> Here it's 3 weeks to wait for the PC to disconnect or connect.
> 
> We don't wait.


I don't understand this. I know they aren't balls-out busy. What takes them so long?


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## Helmut (May 7, 2014)

CoolWill said:


> I don't understand this. I know they aren't balls-out busy. What takes them so long?


It's probably due to the fact that if you call them for something like this, they don't have the 6 guys needed to do it, waiting for your call.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

CoolWill said:


> I don't understand this. I know they aren't balls-out busy. What takes them so long?


We have had waits of up to six weeks. It’s something we just have to work around. The utility owns the cable and owns the meter. I’m not allowed to touch their stuff.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Here is a solution for the people saying how long it takes or any associated fees. Turn in your licenses and close your business that you worked hard for. Then become an international migrant and do the work without any requirements. I am seeing this more and more. If the people doing the work have nothing then the town or county does little. If you have assets then they go after you.


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## VELOCI3 (Aug 15, 2019)

kb1jb1 said:


> Here is a solution for the people saying how long it takes or any associated fees. Turn in your licenses and close your business that you worked hard for. Then become an international migrant and do the work without any requirements. I am seeing this more and more. If the people doing the work have nothing then the town or county does little. If you have assets then they go after you.



What’s an international migrant? We don’t have those in the US. 


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## HertzHound (Jan 22, 2019)

Our utility used to require a D&R by the line crew. It was always a pain in the ass. We were never really sure if they were coming, because they sometimes wouldn't get there till 11:00. The crew were given a few to do that day. By that time it was already cut with a temp hook up for work lights/power and the service was half changed. The inspector would show up after 12:00 and issue a cut-in card for the utility to re-connect. Once you knew the few guys with the utility in the area that did this work, they would sometimes re-connect it and leave you a seal for the meter, for us to install after we were done. The inspector always had to fax the cut in card anyway. No cut-in card changed hands on site. 

Nobody cared that a temp Romex hookup was installed with a quad box. Lots of times the customers refrigerator was running off it. If the lineman showed up early enough, they would tie it in for us. I'm sure that has changed. 

Our utility was bought out by a regional company years ago. Whether it was Union busting tactics, a shareholder thing or just getting all their different companies on the same page, they stopped the D&R requirement for residential services, up to 200A, that are changed by electrical contractors. No big deal. I started in an area with the same utility that Hax has, where we always did the D&R ourselves.



> 3.12 Disconnect/Reconnect of Existing Service (Upgrades/Maintenance) When upgrading or performing maintenance on an existing overhead service entrance, the customer shall first contact the Company’s Customer Contact Center to obtain guidance and to determine applicable fees. Qualified electricians may be permitted to disconnect/reconnect overhead single-phase, self-contained 200-amp or less service drops at the weatherhead, with local Company approval. Customer shall contact the Company for approved connectors. Electricians are not permitted to disconnect underground services. All overhead and underground electrical upgrades shall be inspected prior to reconnection (refer to Section 3.9). The Company has an “Agreement for Temporary Uninspected Service,” which is only applicable for single-phase overhead services 200 amps or less. This form provides a means by which a service can be re-energized before it has been inspected. This waiver cannot be utilized in conjunction with new, temporary, underground, 400 amp or greater services, three-phase services or for service restoration following a building fire.The Company reserves the right to update meter and service locations at the time of upgrade for the purposes of applying current clearance requirements and meter location guidelines. Service equipment installed without approval or incorrectly located shall be subject to change or relocation.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

99cents said:


> Farms are different. They power up a house, a barn, a mobile home, a shop, a couple of outbuildings and a hot tub off an old, rusty* 100A FPE breaker.*


See? Same as an un-fused drop from the utility then.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

joebanana said:


> 3? SCE, DWP, and who else?


We work in the Central Valley and the Bay Area, we actually have a lot more.

PG&E
MID
TID
Silicon Valley
Palo Alto 

Typically I only deal with MID, TID, and PG&E


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

VELOCI3 said:


> What’s an international migrant? We don’t have those in the US.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


PC for undocumented person. NY has many.


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## joab (Dec 28, 2019)

HackWork said:


> We do all of the work, then tell the customer to get the inspection at their convenience. After the inspection the inspector takes a week or two to send the cut-in card to the PoCo, who then takes a month or 8 to come re-splice it and replace the overhead line if necessary.


That would get us a severe reprimand the first time, probably my job for a second time, and likely my license if there was a third. I've been chewed out for breaking a seal and pulling a meter when there was smoke coming out of the main breaker. 

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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

We cut it and reconnect it temp. Then the utility comes back whenever and puts their own on. **** I've used everything from split bolt to romex connectors. 
Now we mostly use insulinks and a ratcheting crimper or H taps and A manual crimper.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

joab said:


> That would get us a severe reprimand the first time, probably my job for a second time, and likely my license if there was a third. I've been chewed out for breaking a seal and pulling a meter when there was smoke coming out of the main breaker.


My PoCo is smart. They know that if they stop EC's from opening meters and splicing services, they will have to pay to do it. They would rather the EC's take care of it so that they can have a smaller workforce (which is still probably bigger than most other PoCo's).

Many times when I cut a seal I will call the PoCo wiring inspector in that area to tell him and he will just say "Thanks for letting me know, I'll put a note in for it".


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

I helped this old guy once on a job. He asked me if I could cut the live overhead utility lines and move them to the new service he installed. I said, “You must be joking”.

He got pi$$ed and went up there with an aluminum extension ladder, work gloves and some split bolts.


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## VELOCI3 (Aug 15, 2019)

I was part of the original transmitting meters pilot program (manuf. ITRON) in the early 2000’s. After changing out about 5000 meters I can safely say the number on the seal was never recorded. The only ones that were recorded were the white tags on meters that were supplying life safety equipment. 

Only found a few theft of service issues. 

Guy drilled a hole through the glass to jam a bbq skewer into the disc. 

Some took an insulation sleeve and put it on the neutral blade. 


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## HertzHound (Jan 22, 2019)

joab said:


> That would get us a severe reprimand the first time, probably my job for a second time, and likely my license if there was a third. I've been chewed out for breaking a seal and pulling a meter when there was smoke coming out of the main breaker.
> 
> Sent from my SM-P580 using Tapatalk



I got a call from my boss to help a co-worker out on my way home from work. A bad storm just went through and he had a service to repair. Utility was supposed to be on the way to disconnect, a utility supervisor was already on the scene. When I pulled up the supervisor was sitting in his car staying dry, and the bent over Rigid service was shooting like a roman candle. He had told my co-worker if we cut it, we have to connect it. It was either cut it, or let the house catch fire. As soon as my co-worker cut it, the supervisor drove away. It would have been nice if the line crew eventually showed up to reconnect in the rain.


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## Gnome (Dec 25, 2013)

Kevin_Essiambre said:


> I'd do them if we were permitted. POCO charges $600 in Ottawa (for basic resi)... that money could be ours if they let us.



Hydro charges $875 here.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Gnome said:


> *Hydro* charges $875 here.


We're talking about shutting the electricity off, not the water :biggrin:


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## Gnome (Dec 25, 2013)

HackWork said:


> We're talking about shutting the electricity off, not the water :biggrin:


I keep forgetting some places burn dead dinosaurs instead of using falling water for electrical generation.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Barbecued dinosaur. Yummy.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Gnome said:


> I keep forgetting some places burn dead dinosaurs instead of using falling water for electrical generation.


Yeah, but we don't call it the Burnt Dead Dino company.


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## Kevin (Feb 14, 2017)

Gnome said:


> Hydro charges $875 here.


Wow, that's pricey. 

It's about $250-300 +/- for a meter pull

$600 +/- for a standard disconnect reconnect on most resi jobs

And $1000 +/- for a 100 to 200 amp underground upgrade with disconnect reconnect... which I find odd because it's actually easier than an overhead service... they're all 200 amp meter bases, and conductors from the transformer to the meter "large enough"(according to the POCO...) for 200 amps, so all they have to do is disconnect the power for us......

These are the most common things we do. Occasionally we will have a new building to do, and fees will vary.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

When I hear about all the fees and scheduling problems it makes me feel better about dealing with our utility company.


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## CTshockhazard (Aug 28, 2009)

joab said:


> That would get us a severe reprimand the first time, probably my job for a second time, and likely my license if there was a third. I've been chewed out for breaking a seal and pulling a meter when there was smoke coming out of the main breaker.


From whom?
The POCO has the authority to reprimand you?

The POCO has the authority to fire you?

The POCO holds authority over your license?




I've seen things like this said before, can anyone, anywhere (US thanks) show some documentation of actual case data regarding such?


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

99cents said:


> I helped this old guy once on a job. He asked me if I could cut the live overhead utility lines and move them to the new service he installed. I said, “You must be joking”.
> 
> He got pi$$ed and went up there with an aluminum extension ladder, work gloves and some split bolts.


Apparently you didn't help him if he ended up doing it himself.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

CoolWill said:


> Apparently you didn't help him if he ended up doing it himself.


There’s no “apparently” about it. I did cold work.


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## joab (Dec 28, 2019)

CTshockhazard said:


> From whom?
> The POCO has the authority to reprimand you?
> 
> The POCO has the authority to fire you?
> ...


POCO. It is illegal to tamper with their locks or equipment. There are legal grounds if they want to get nasty.

They don't have direct authority over anything else, but if my actions make life miserable for the rest of our guys, then my boss is going to let me go.

As for the license, I've never heard of anyone losing a license permanently through the complaint process/out side force's, but certainly for a short term. If the POCO complains to the Department of Professional Services, a State inspectors does have the authority to rescind a license.


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## CTshockhazard (Aug 28, 2009)

joab said:


> POCO. It is illegal to tamper with their locks or equipment. There are legal grounds if they want to get nasty.
> 
> They don't have direct authority over anything else, but if my actions make life miserable for the rest of our guys, then my boss is going to let me go.
> 
> As for the license, I've never heard of anyone losing a license permanently through the complaint process/out side force's, but certainly for a short term. If the POCO complains to the Department of Professional Services, a State inspectors does have the authority to rescind a license.



Although the POCO likes that people think they are,



these:







are not the "seal" that the law is referring to.


The law governs the meter's internal seal that protects it's calibration.


Electricians doing service changes aren't tampering with POCO equipment.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

CTshockhazard said:


> Electricians doing service changes aren't tampering with POCO equipment.


I’m not so sure about that. Our meter bases say property of PSEG. Like the other utilities, they have an easement to have their property on other peoples property. Just like how they own a large transformer placed on commercial property.

Is it illegal to open one of these pieces of equipment? Probably not, at least not in any enforceable or punishable way. But it’s definitely illegal to steal power, which no reasonable person would believe an Electrician was doing during a repair if there is no other evidence other than an open meter.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Why would I test the utility and the authorities by saying, “What happens if I do this?” I try to avoid headaches, not create them.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

The meter is 100% the property of the utility here. They install and remove them. When they remove them for us to do work, they don’t even leave them on site, they take them. 

I Don’t think you can be charged by law for tampering with them, but they can add charges on your electricity bill and cancel your service. 

I did a new service for a customer that was caught stealing power, his meter was inside the basement. We moved it outside at their request and when we were done, they calculated what he stole approximately and would not reconnect power until he paid it. It was many thousands of dollars.


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## VELOCI3 (Aug 15, 2019)

HackWork said:


> I’m not so sure about that. Our meter bases say property of PSEG. Like the other utilities, they have an easement to have their property on other peoples property. Just like how they own a large transformer placed on commercial property.
> 
> Is it illegal to open one of these pieces of equipment? Probably not, at least not in any enforceable or punishable way. But it’s definitely illegal to steal power, which no reasonable person would believe an Electrician was doing during a repair if there is no other evidence other than an open meter.



Ours in NY don’t. But they do lock troughs and property boxes. The new smart meters aren’t locked with the old gold rings though. 


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

CTshockhazard said:


> Although the POCO likes that people think they are,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Who owns the triplex?


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## joab (Dec 28, 2019)

joe-nwt said:


> Who owns the triplex?


The drop to the service? In my area, the POCO. They supply, install and repair it.


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## Kevin (Feb 14, 2017)

eddy current said:


> When they remove them for us to do work, they don’t even leave them on site, they take them.


Out of ALL the services I have done, there is only 1 job they took the meter with them... the crew must not trust you! Kidding, of course, but i find that unusual that they'd take the meter with them on your jobs.

There was a time where I was almost on a first name basis with the crews, because we were doing services so often, and like I said, there was only 1 job they took the meter with them, and it was a subcontractor, not Hydro Ottawa themselves.


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## joab (Dec 28, 2019)

Kevin_Essiambre said:


> Out of ALL the services I have done, there is only 1 job they took the meter with them... the crew must not trust you! Kidding, of course, but i find that unusual that they'd take the meter with them on your jobs.
> 
> There was a time where I was almost on a first name basis with the crews, because we were doing services so often, and like I said, there was only 1 job they took the meter with them, and it was a subcontractor, not Hydro Ottawa themselves.


Same here, they never leave a meter on site.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

joab said:


> The drop to the service? In my area, the POCO. They supply, install and repair it.


Then that's one of the things you don't tamper with without permission.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

All the time. I use insulated UV Polaris taps for hots and bolt style clamp and UV cover for Neutral. 

Meter out, no load. 

I always check utility lines for damage first. 

Other than that just take your time, one by one. 

I carry a 1000V blanket and clamps in truck just Incase. I’ve used them twice for hard to reach, uncomfortable services that might be close to gutters, flashing, etc. 

When I pull authorization they ask me if I’m connecting. I couldn’t imagine having to wait or schedule poco. I only do for UG upgrades or new UG connections. 

If you live in areas of high power outs due to storms, etc. It pays to be good at this. 

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## Signal1 (Feb 10, 2016)

WronGun said:


> All the time. I use insulated UV Polaris taps for hots and bolt style clamp and UV cover for Neutral.
> 
> Meter out, no load.
> 
> ...


This is a good point. I've had people standing there with their checkbook out. Sometimes I used to feel bad, but not that bad.


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## CTshockhazard (Aug 28, 2009)

joe-nwt said:


> Who owns the triplex?


So then I'm tampering with this everytime I fill up the van?


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

Walk up to a random gas station, open up the pump and start playing with the wiring. See what happens next.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

WronGun said:


> All the time. I use insulated UV Polaris taps for hots and bolt style clamp and UV cover for Neutral.
> 
> Meter out, no load.
> 
> ...


Why use $15 connectors when $2 will do better job? Plus you can still charge $25 for either one???


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

sbrn33 said:


> Why use $15 connectors when $2 will do better job? Plus you can still charge $25 for either one???



Honestly , just something I’ve done from the very start. It made me feel safer when I started doing services to use a fully insulated connector. 

This is the first thing I do when I cut down a service is put the connector on the street side. 


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## CTshockhazard (Aug 28, 2009)

joe-nwt said:


> Walk up to a random gas station, open up the pump and start playing with the wiring. See what happens next.



Yeah, that's the same


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

CTshockhazard said:


> Yeah, that's the same


Sorry. The discussion was tampering with POCO equipment and you posted a picture of a gas pump. It was the best I could do.


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## matt1124 (Aug 23, 2011)

POCO will do it for free, with a permit, so you can bet i keep h-taps around


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