# Bargain/ beg



## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

Was talking to an apprentice the other day that had a conversation with a facility electrician where he worked. The guy claimed he made $15 over our scale working open shop. That was before the company he was running work for went belly up. The man is now working maintenance for a facility making approximately $10 less than our scale with bennies. I worked open shop for years, and have never seen a total package to match any where near what the union had to offer. I was young, but all the open shops had was running smaller work leading a bunch of unskilled labor. I myself didn't enjoy training guys every skill for the job specific task. I don't mind being a teaching foremen, but skills should not have to be taught by the foreman to the apprentice on a bigger job. There are many good journeyman on jobs for this. Of course some better than others. I tried telling this apprentice this, but when your young, you want to see it on the check. Pretty sure when he was talking to the guy, he didn't understand our total package , insurance, pension, representation...


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

It is so much easier to communicate if we all speak the same language.

No offense, but it is difficult to understand your point.


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## 3D Electric (Mar 24, 2013)

eejack said:


> It is so much easier to communicate if we all speak the same language.
> 
> No offense, but it is difficult to understand your point.


I thought I was the only one. Lol :thumbsup:


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

eejack said:


> It is so much easier to communicate if we all speak the same language.
> 
> No offense, but it is difficult to understand your point.


Kinda fishing in my own way. Wanted to see if anyone has had similar instances where they had to compare one to the other. Or are you a lifelong union member ejack?


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

eejack said:


> It is so much easier to communicate if we all speak the same language.
> 
> No offense, but it is difficult to understand your point.


$15 over union wages seemed like he was blowing smoke up an apprentices arse. Worked open shop long enough. When a guy is blowing smoke I just like to call him on it. I am sure you can make more being a foreman for an open shop. But I just want to let everyone know its on the wage, not the total package.


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## 3D Electric (Mar 24, 2013)

cl219um said:


> Kinda fishing in my own way. Wanted to see if anyone has had similar instances where they had to compare one to the other. Or are you a lifelong union member ejack?


The union has it's advantages. I am a non union contractor but would never be against anyone trying to better themselves. If you can get into the union go ahead and try for it. I work for myself so I do not get great bennies. I do know of some nonunion contractors that offer exceptional pay and bennies above and beyond union wages. However getting hired on with them is next to impossible as they really have no turnover. The only thing I do not like about the union is I do not want to be told when and where I can work. Other than that I think it's an excellent option to work for. :thumbsup: Do whatever is best for you and your situation.


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

eejack said:


> It is so much easier to communicate if we all speak the same language.
> 
> No offense, but it is difficult to understand your point.[/ my point usually has a double edged sword since I have been on both sides of the fence for almost the same amount of time. Btw. Need validation? Nope. Just want to know if anyone has had similar questions. I know you are all veterans at being opinionated.


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## Expediter (Mar 12, 2014)

Just remember that it is very few and far between, the child apprentice that understands and grasps the concept of benefits or retirement packages. 
I say child because they just think they are grown up now.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

cl219um said:


> eejack said:
> 
> 
> > It is so much easier to communicate if we all speak the same language.
> ...


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

Does the work hard and get it done mentality get rewarded in the union?

It's a serious question. The few union guys I've known have indicated that if you have that mentality, the "brothers" will have a talk with you and set you straight. 

True/False?


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

hardworkingstiff said:


> Does the work hard and get it done mentality get rewarded in the union?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Work too hard and you will be asked to slow down. That is a fact


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

ponyboy said:


> Work too hard and you will be asked to slow down. That is a fact


Really? 

Being raised in the American way of competition, that seems wrong, almost communistic. 

If businesses didn't beat down workers so hard, unions would not be necessary and if unions busted ass to help the businesses, the businesses would not fight the unions so hard.


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

hardworkingstiff said:


> Really?
> 
> Being raised in the American way of competition, that seems wrong, almost communistic.
> 
> If businesses didn't beat down workers so hard, unions would not be necessary and if unions busted ass to help the businesses, the businesses would not fight the unions so hard.


pony is right. I worked union once, it was warehouse work, but union all the same. I was told plenty of times to slow down because i would disrupt the way things are meant to go.


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

hardworkingstiff said:


> Really?
> 
> Being raised in the American way of competition, that seems wrong, almost communistic.
> 
> If businesses didn't beat down workers so hard, unions would not be necessary and if unions busted ass to help the businesses, the businesses would not fight the unions so hard.


The American way? Employers especially big business makes a wheelbarrow of money today. The separation of the middle class and management has grown out of control. I am a guy that does my job and very well btw. To always be put in a class of guys that make the same is preposterous. But to work non union for less and with the loss of prevailing wage and states becoming right to work for less is the ultimate kick in the bag. I can look at myself in the mirror at the end of the day and be proud of what I have accomplished. It's not the same for others that worked union all their life though. I have been getting sick of the laziness on both sides open and union. If there was an open shop that really paid a guy his worth, heck, I may be all aboard. There isn't, so the union is the next best thing.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

hardworkingstiff said:


> Does the work hard and get it done mentality get rewarded in the union?
> 
> It's a serious question. The few union guys I've known have indicated that if you have that mentality, the "brothers" will have a talk with you and set you straight.
> 
> True/False?


The honest answer is both.

Good hard workers get kept on longer, get made foreman, get better company training etc. and make more money as a result.

When it comes to your average guy, yes - folks want everyone to work around the same speed - so there is pressure to keep some things in check.

Then you get folks like myself, who bang hard all day yet refuse the perks, ask for layoffs etc. My personal belief is we should all put in the best day we can and make folks happy to hire us. My local has given me a good living and I believe it deserves my best effort.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

eejack said:


> My personal belief is we should all put in the best day we can and make folks happy to hire us. My local has given me a good living and I believe it deserves my best effort.


If 98% of the unions felt/worked that way I think more companies would go union.


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

I have worked open shop and made over scale, I have worked open shop Davis Bacon and made scale plus bennies in the check but was responsible for my own H&W.

I have worked union and open shop (as noted) and found excellent men in both realms. 

I will say around here the best men are generally union as the pay and bennies are hard to beat, so good open shop men strive to sign up, unless they are well compensated by their employer.

We have a few open shops here that only do Davis Bacon and the men make over scale to keep them from going union. Then there are a few open shops that pay equal to union wages and bennies. 

I have seen hack work and excellent work completed by both camps.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

I've played both sides of the fence, several times as a matter of fact. I, like most, have seen phenomenal guys and losers in equal proportion. 

I disagree heavily with the notion that "open" shops will pay for performance. While I have worked for some that do recognize talent and pay accordingly, I would say the vast majority are pretty cutthroat with it. Playing the game of seeing how long they can pay you so little. 

Too many times, both union and non, I have seen guys give whole companies and crews bad names by their blatant lazy and disrespectful viewpoints. In the end, they are different, but not really better.


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