# Puzzling Service



## groundlug (Oct 19, 2010)

I just recently viewed a new service that I am very puzzled about. This contractor installed a 60" wide 96" tall hoffman box outdoor to feed a multi field sports complex. Inside he built the service, he took two 400 amp panel board MCB interiors placed them on a back plate made of a sheet of plywood. Now here is the puzzling part, there are two 4" pvc pipes underground going back to the pad mount transformer. Each pipe has four 500 mcm conductors one for each phase, plus one for the neutral. He placed the phases on the 400 MCB's, but then he mounted only one neutral buss assembly and landed both neutrals on the one buss. So basically he paralleled the neutral part of the service, but separated the panel feeders. There are many code issue at this complex, and the owner wants me to give them the code book articles for each of these problems. I have made a list of the other items, but I can not find anywhere that what he did here is wrong. Does anyone know where this may be addressed in the code book? I've spent hours trying to find it. This is brand new complex with many problems other than code issues, and the owner is just trying to running.


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

got some pics?


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## groundlug (Oct 19, 2010)

I have attached the pictures. If for some reason they don't come through let me know.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

groundlug said:


> View attachment 4574
> 
> 
> View attachment 4575
> ...


 

I don't think there's a violation by doing that as lons as the neutral load has been calculated accordingly.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

On second look, there is no neutral load at all. This is code compliant.


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

code compliant minus the wood backboard.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Sixty foot by ninety six foot box. Man thats huge,.....


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## acrwc10 (Jan 28, 2007)

What is he using to hold the large conductors going up? it looks like pipe strut straps (703s) The PVC comming in needs bell ends on them and duct seal for the under ground pipes coming up out of the ground into the enclosure. 
Its amazing how someone can be so close to doing nice work then go down in flames so quick, pun intended, I love the plywood in the cabinet, Awsome :no:


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Ah ok. 

I don't see an issue with the neutral either, now the rest of the install well...


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

That's very creative, artistic even.

Never seen such a thing.


but jeez louise, wth?


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Rudeboy said:


> That's very creative, artistic even.
> 
> Never seen such a thing.
> 
> ...



what!!?????


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

macmikeman said:


> Sixty foot by ninety six foot box. Man thats huge,.....


 :whistling2::whistling2::whistling2:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Not sure why he would do it this way, but I see no major issues.


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## acrwc10 (Jan 28, 2007)

brian john said:


> Not sure why he would do it this way, but I see no major issues.


How would you address the plywood? I don't like it but off the top of my head didn't come up with a code section, other then it 408.50 The panels of switchboards shall be made of moisture-resistant, noncombustible material. And it could be argued this is not a panel it is a cabinet.


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## BEAMEUP (Sep 19, 2008)

The only thing I would think that would be an issue is that he has built an assembly of different components into a panel board, and would need it to be field listed by an approved UL listing agency. Or am I way off base with my thinking here ???


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## cobra50 (Aug 12, 2009)

I would question 2 items.
1. Mounting height off ground...some inspectors look for min 30".
2. Looks like the voltage is 480v the right side of the cabinet looks to 
close the chain link fence... I think you need 40".


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

acrwc10 said:


> What is he using to hold the large conductors going up? it looks like pipe strut straps (703s) The PVC comming in needs bell ends on them and duct seal for the under ground pipes coming up out of the ground into the enclosure.
> Its amazing how someone can be so close to doing nice work then go down in flames so quick, pun intended, I love the plywood in the cabinet, Awsome :no:


These are all your preferences, not code



brian john said:


> Not sure why he would do it this way, but I see no major issues.


 

I agree


acrwc10 said:


> How would you address the plywood? I don't like it but off the top of my head didn't come up with a code section, other then it 408.50 The panels of switchboards shall be made of moisture-resistant, noncombustible material. And it could be argued this is not a panel it is a cabinet.


 
The panelboard IS MADE of noncombustible materials, the backboard is not


BEAMEUP said:


> The only thing I would think that would be an issue is that he has built an assembly of different components into a panel board, and would need it to be field listed by an approved UL listing agency. Or am I way off base with my thinking here ???


 
Way off. He can install dead front types in that enclosure, along with starters, contactors whatever he likes.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

cobra50 said:


> I would question 2 items.
> 1. Mounting height off ground...some inspectors look for min 30".
> 2. Looks like the voltage is 480v the right side of the cabinet looks to
> close the chain link fence... I think you need 40".


 


Show me an article on the minimum height. 


I'd like to see you put a 1200 amp CT cabinet 30" off the ground.


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## cobra50 (Aug 12, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Show me an article on the minimum height.
> 
> 
> I'd like to see you put a 1200 amp CT cabinet 30" off the ground.


Not the cabinet but the items inside...24 to 30" to the bottom of the ct's


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

What about the wooden board not being a part of the listed assembly. Hoffman does make metal backboards designed just for this purpose. Just a thought.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

You could tell the owner that you've never seen this type of install before and that he definetly got ripped off! Someone charged him for a distribution center then hacked one together to save money.


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## Louieb (Mar 19, 2007)

Besides being a"whole lot of ugly" I dont see a ground wire for the ground rod nor do I see adequate grounds for the branch circuit mess


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

John Valdes said:


> What about the wooden board not being a part of the listed assembly. Hoffman does make metal backboards designed just for this purpose. Just a thought.


 
Yeah I would have used a metal backboard for sure.


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## cdnelectrician (Mar 14, 2008)

Would there also be an issue (as per NEC) having open conductors and exposed live parts when opening the cabinet to reset or turn off a breaker?


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## acrwc10 (Jan 28, 2007)

Looks like the box isn't grounded either. I would be looking at the bonding and grounding in the transformer also, just to make sure it is connected correctly.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

I want to know who thought it was a good idea to just set this thing down on what looks like one of those plastic AC condenser pads, what keeps it from tipping or getting tipped over? I would have poured a pad and bolted it down.


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## acrwc10 (Jan 28, 2007)

Groundlug, do you have a picture of the other side of this box? Where do the two pvc's with all the branch circuits go, it doesn't look like the pvc's are attached to the box? And if they are going any farther then 24" there maybe derating issues on the conductors.:blink:


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## varmit (Apr 19, 2009)

1. The panel interiors installed without the original panel enclosures would void the NEMA ratings of the panels.

2. The panels not being enclosed, when the outer doors are open, would violate NFPA 70E requirements and OSHA standards.

3. Not knowing the connected loads, there appears to be a conduit fill issue on the branch circuits.


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## acrwc10 (Jan 28, 2007)

varmit said:


> 1. The panel interiors installed without the original panel enclosures would void the NEMA ratings of the panels.
> 
> 2. The panels not being enclosed, when the outer doors are open, would violate NFPA 70E requirements and OSHA standards.
> 
> 3. Not knowing the connected loads, there appears to be a conduit fill issue on the branch circuits.


 
This is not an issue the "panel board" and the "cabinet"(408.38) are two seperate things.

Definition: Panelboard. A single panel or group of panel units designed for assembly in the form of a single panel, including buses and automatic overcurrent devices, and equipped with or without switches for the control of light, heat, or power circuits; designed to be placed in a cabinet or cutout box placed in or against a wall, partition, or other support; and accessible only from the front.


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## crosport (Apr 4, 2010)

Can you say hackwork?


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## varmit (Apr 19, 2009)

acrwc10 said:


> This is not an issue the "panel board" and the "cabinet"(408.38) are two seperate things.
> 
> Definition: Panelboard. A single panel or group of panel units designed for assembly in the form of a single panel, including buses and automatic overcurrent devices, and equipped with or without switches for the control of light, heat, or power circuits; designed to be placed in a cabinet or cutout box placed in or against a wall, partition, or other support; and accessible only from the front.


I disagree. This definition refers to a complete unit to be assembled from listed components of the original manufacturer. This is the same situation that prevents the use of one manufacturers breaker in a different brand panel - it is not rated or tested as a complete assembly. Yes, of course breakers are mismatched every day, that does not make it correct though.


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## amptech (Sep 21, 2007)

I've built a lot of control panels using a Hoffman box, dinrail mounted Squared D breakers, AB starters and Sola control transformers. Is that not permitted?


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

I don't see any major issue however., the one qurik is plywood backing IMO 
That is not my favour item and the other thing is the bottom of cabent someone should done better job close up large arse opening otherwise you will have some unwanted critters get in there and do the mess in there.

Merci.
Marc


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## varmit (Apr 19, 2009)

amptech said:


> I've built a lot of control panels using a Hoffman box, dinrail mounted Squared D breakers, AB starters and Sola control transformers. Is that not permitted?


Yes, this is fine as these are components that are meant to be parts of an assembly. I build panels sometimes also. A complete panel can not be partially used, as in picture, and maintain a NEMA rating. Also, by current codes, If there were terminals that were not "touch safe" inside of a panel, there would be required a method to disconnect the power before opening the panel door.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

varmit said:


> A complete panel can not be partially used, as in picture, and maintain a NEMA rating.


There are two complete panelboards as covered by Article 408 in the picture below.














> Also, by current codes, If there were terminals that were not "touch safe" inside of a panel, there would be required a method to disconnect the power before opening the panel door.


Can you provide a reference for that?


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

From Article 100



> *Panelboard.* A single panel or group of panel units designed
> for assembly in the form of a single panel, including
> buses and automatic overcurrent devices, and equipped
> with or without switches for the control of light, heat, or
> ...


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## acrwc10 (Jan 28, 2007)

varmit said:


> I disagree. This definition refers to a complete unit to be assembled from listed components of the original manufacturer. This is the same situation that prevents the use of one manufacturers breaker in a different brand panel - it is not rated or tested as a complete assembly. Yes, of course breakers are mismatched every day, that does not make it correct though.


You are mistaken, breakers are in direct contact with the bussing and conductors, they MUST be listed for the panelboard. The panelboard is a complete unit and sepate from the cabinet, there are many contractors that have sheet metal guys build "Cabinets" and the Only requirement is that they be built to the requirements of Art.312.10. The only time they are required to be "Listed" is if they are "Non-matalic", and that would kick the plywood out of the cabinet.


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## acrwc10 (Jan 28, 2007)

frenchelectrican said:


> I don't see any major issue however., the one qurik is plywood backing IMO
> That is not my favour item and the other thing is the bottom of cabent someone should done better job close up large arse opening otherwise you will have some unwanted critters get in there and do the mess in there.
> 
> Merci.
> Marc


 
Look closer. :laughing:


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

varmit said:


> I disagree. This definition refers to a complete unit to be assembled from listed components of the original manufacturer.


You are reading what you want into it, it says no such thing.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

acrwc10 said:


> Look closer. :laughing:


 
Oui I did look closer but still ya never know with underground critter can dig up thru there.

Merci.
Marc


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## varmit (Apr 19, 2009)

I was referring to this not being a true "dead front" enclosure. If the outer door is opened, there would be direct access to the the main lugs if someone unwittingly grabbed the breaker trim panel. NEC, NEMA and UL standards all refer to "dead front panelboards" where when accessing breakers, there is no exposure to live parts. In the case of this panel, it would not be practical to install a second cover inside of the door to accomplish the dead front requirement. Sometimes a disconnect interlocked to prevent the doors from opening if the disconnect is turned on is used to prevent exposure to live parts.
I don't see this as feasible in this case either.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Varmit, when I buy a panelboard like the one in the picture it will not come with an enclosure unless I order one.

Commercial panelboards are typically three parts, the 'panelboard' the 'cabinet' and the cover. 

As far as the UL issues that is up to the AHJ to decide if the use of the equipment needs to be re-investigated by UL for compliance.


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## amptech (Sep 21, 2007)

I don't see a violation as far as the concept goes. I definitely would have done it a little differently if I was going to take the route that was taken.


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## ibew292guy (May 12, 2010)

looks like a wonderful hack job


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## acrwc10 (Jan 28, 2007)

That is why I want to see a picture of what is on the back of it. It looks like it isn't even bolted down and since the conduits have no fittings on them, you can't expect them to hold it up it a strong wind or impact. "TIMBER" :blink: Then it will be a 96" wide face down energized POS. Bottom line if I was inspecting it, it would get a Red Tag.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

amptech said:


> I don't see a violation as far as the concept goes. I definitely would have done it a little differently if I was going to take the route that was taken.



Well put. :thumbsup:


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## Lsparky (Sep 28, 2010)

I have built a ton of this kind of cabinet (Hoffman) as Motor control, etc. but never with any wood (plywood backboard)


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## sparky105 (Sep 29, 2009)

It would have been easier to just install 2 enclosures into the larger 1 and put proper covers on them and use metal back board made for enclosure. That is a common install that I see.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

sparky105 said:


> It would have been easier to just install 2 enclosures into the larger 1 and put proper covers on them and use metal back board made for enclosure. That is a common install that I see.


I see no reason to drop the cash on a bigger enclosure just to put the cans for the panel boards inside.


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## sparky105 (Sep 29, 2009)

I agree but that is what I have seen. why not just use nema 4 pnls instead of the huge ass $2000 box :blink:


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