# Sub-Panel Breaker/Rating



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

...Yes...


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

Where are the spare pad locks?


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Experience says your "owner" needs to hire a qualified electrician unless he/she wants more fires.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

I will put in 200 amp MLO panels when a 125 isn't going to give me enough spaces. Then just put in a backfeed breaker(with hold down ). Also, if they ever want to upgrade, bam! It's there.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

If I understand correctly, you're asking if the conductors and sub can be oversized for the breaker. Yes.


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## theJcK (Aug 7, 2013)

I agree its a smart move if youre looking to the future. A smaller breaker can protect a larger sub feed. And honestly unless a heat pumps involved this apartment may never see higher than 80A. IMO.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

This is between the electrician and customer. You shouldn't even be getting involved in such details.

Let me guess, you've already figure out the price of all of this, and you are going to beat down whatever electrician you find to be less than that horrid price? And then you complain because those "pro's" who are willing to work for those pennies aren't on the ball when it comes to code? Nice.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

HackWork said:


> This is between the electrician and customer. You shouldn't even be getting involved in such details.
> 
> Let me guess, you've already figure out the price of all of this, and you are going to beat down whatever electrician you find to be less than that horrid price? And then you complain because those "pro's" who are willing to work for those pennies aren't on the ball when it comes to code? Nice.


I'm on a house remodel, and the builder told the HO that he could have a bath fan/light installed for $200. Most units I install cost more than $150. Still have to mount it, install roof jack, duct and wire it. 

This was the same builder that failed to pull the insulation under the old windows to make sure there was nothing in the way when larger openings were going to be needed. Tried to call me back after my rough in was done and inspected. I'm laughing like hell, well because I just had a knee replaced! Dumbass, I told the HO that too. He knew what the window sizes were going to be and stripped the wallboard off. But couldn't pull the little bit of paper away to look under it. :no:


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

backstay said:


> I'm on a house remodel, and the builder told the HO that he could have a bath fan/light installed for $200. Most units I install cost more than $150. Still have to mount it, install roof jack, duct and wire it.
> 
> This was the same builder that failed to pull the insulation under the old windows to make sure there was nothing in the way when larger openings were going to be needed. Tried to call me back after my rough in was done and inspected. I'm laughing like hell, well because I just had a knee replaced! Dumbass, I told the HO that too. He knew what the window sizes were going to be and stripped the wallboard off. But couldn't pull the little bit of paper away to look under it. :no:


Huh? I'm no tin basher. If I supply the fart fan, I wire it and the GC tells me what direction the duct goes. He does the rest.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

99cents said:


> Huh? I'm no tin basher. If I supply the fart fan, I wire it and the GC tells me what direction the duct goes. He does the rest.


If the builder wants to quote the electricians sales without consulting with
the electrician , then let the builder purchase the product and handle the
install him or her self.

The EC is purchasing a decent exhaust fan @ 150.00. He is right by
passing on the 50.00 ... IMO this doesn't even begin to cover cost.

Better yet , the EC should go buy a homer depot special for $19.99
and flip em a bill for $200.00...when the builder bitches , remind em
how contracting law works , who sets the EC's prices and the fact
that the builder DOES NOT represent his EC business to the customer.


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## Chattaroy (Jun 11, 2016)

To those who gave a thoughtful answer: Thanks!

To the negative answers: My responsibility as GC from the first communication with the HO to the end of the job is to understand and communicate codes and practices in every trade. I'm responsible for every detail of the job. So nothing is just between a sub and the HO.

To Hackwork: The more money I make for my subs the happier I am. All of my jobs and subs are top notch. That's because I stay informed, don't make assumptions and treat my subs well. So "guess" again.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Chattaroy said:


> To those who gave a thoughtful answer: Thanks!
> 
> To the negative answers: My responsibility as GC from the first communication with the HO to the end of the job is to understand and communicate codes and practices in every trade. I'm responsible for every detail of the job. So nothing is just between a sub and the HO.
> 
> To Hackwork: The more money I make for my subs the happier I am. All of my jobs and subs are top notch. That's because I stay informed, don't make assumptions and treat my subs well. So "guess" again.


You're welcome! :thumbup:


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

lighterup said:


> If the builder wants to quote the electricians sales without consulting with
> the electrician , then let the builder purchase the product and handle the
> install him or her self.
> 
> ...


The builder quoted $200 for everything, the fan, the mechanical, the wiring, the demo of the old light, the rerouting of the wiring and adding boxes in the ceiling because there were three cables coming to that box. Your post is spot on. I didn't tell the HO that he could put a tub in the bath for $$$.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

Chattaroy said:


> To Hackwork: The more money I make for my subs the happier I am. *All of my jobs and subs are top notch.* That's because I stay informed, don't make assumptions and treat my subs well. So "guess" again.


Then why didn't you just pose this question to your top notch sub and leave it at that?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Chattaroy said:


> To Hackwork: The more money I make for my subs the happier I am. All of my jobs and subs are top notch. That's because I stay informed, don't make assumptions and treat my subs well. So "guess" again.


Oh, my mistake. Here I was thinking that you opened your second post on this forum by saying "_I've had a few discussions with some "pro's" and there is some dissent. My understanding of national code..._".


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

And can you define "stay informed"? Do you mean asking strangers on the Internet?


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Majewski said:


> And can you define "stay informed"? Do you mean asking strangers on the Internet?


Some more strange than others! :whistling2:


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Yeah, this guy is going to last long. :no:


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

Chattaroy said:


> To those who gave a thoughtful answer: Thanks!
> 
> To the negative answers: My responsibility as GC from the first communication with the HO to the end of the job is to understand and communicate codes and practices in every trade. I'm responsible for every detail of the job. So nothing is just between a sub and the HO.
> 
> To Hackwork: The more money I make for my subs the happier I am. All of my jobs and subs are top notch. That's because I stay informed, don't make assumptions and treat my subs well. So "guess" again.


There's the hook. The attitude that you're making the subs money is WRONG..they are making you money via your mark up on their invoicing.

I don't know what the contract laws are in your state , but in my state if
you direct the licensed sub contractor in any way you have crossed over
from contracting (General contractor - sub contractor relationship to
employer - employee relationship) which now has labor law , payroll implications.

I'm sorry for you that you feel this is "negative" but what I said is FACT.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

This is hilarious. I could put a list together of 100 upsells and upgrades but I haven't encountered a GC yet who bothers listening. These not only make both of us extra money, I consider it my responsibility to keep the customer informed of new products and trends.

Here's an example: If you are developing a basement and you have a clear run from the panel to the garage, why would you not at least ask about roughing in the cable for future vehicle charging? It costs d!ck. When I bring it up, GC's laugh at me. I polled my friends on Facebook and every one said they would gladly pay the extra.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

99cents said:


> This is hilarious. I could put a list together of 100 upsells and upgrades but I haven't encountered a GC yet who bothers listening. These not only make both of us extra money, I consider it my responsibility to keep the customer informed of new products and trends.
> 
> Here's an example: If you are developing a basement and you have a clear run from the panel to the garage, why would you not at least ask about roughing in the cable for future vehicle charging? It costs d!ck. When I bring it up, GC's laugh at me. I polled my friends on Facebook and every one said they would gladly pay the extra.


I have a suspicion that in some cases the person in question is insecure and feels threatened by ideas they didn't come up with.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

99cents said:


> This is hilarious. I could put a list together of 100 upsells and upgrades but I haven't encountered a GC yet who bothers listening. These not only make both of us extra money, I consider it my responsibility to keep the customer informed of new products and trends.
> 
> Here's an example: If you are developing a basement and you have a clear run from the panel to the garage, why would you not at least ask about roughing in the cable for future vehicle charging? It costs d!ck. When I bring it up, GC's laugh at me. I polled my friends on Facebook and every one said they would gladly pay the extra.



Their know it alls. if this GC is so qualified , why is he asking
an electricians talk forum if it's okay to feed a 200 amp panel off
of a 100 amp panel? 
the fact is , to answer the OP's question , I as a "pro" wouldn't do it
unless they did the whole service upgrade.
You know the HO is going to start adding loads to that new main lug.
Anything goes wrong (overload I mean) then the question will be posed
to the EC ..Why did you do it?


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

lighterup said:


> Their know it alls. if this GC is so qualified , why is he asking
> an electricians talk forum if it's okay to feed a 200 amp panel off
> of a 100 amp panel?
> the fact is , to answer the OP's question , I as a "pro" wouldn't do it
> ...


It's ok though! You can just re word the question until you manipulate the answer how you want it. That way it's totally fine because someone on the Google box said you could.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

My understanding is that he is upgrading the sub in anticipation of a future service change. It's okay but, you're right, it's a little sketchy. Probably one of those jobs where a horribly expensive bath tub rolls in and the electrical service is twisting in the wind.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

99cents said:


> My understanding is that he is upgrading the sub in anticipation of a future service change. It's okay but, you're right, it's a little sketchy. Probably one of those jobs where a horribly expensive bath tub rolls in and the electrical service is twisting in the wind.


I 'm not there looking at this existing 100 amp main , but I've seen enough booked up 100 amp panels to know , there's probably no room for 2/0 cu's
nor any adequate wire bending space , nor any terminals left to land the neutral and even if you had space available for a 240 volt breaker , what 
is he using? What OCP is he planning on putting in that will fit 2/0 cu or
4/0 SER in it ...correctly fit in it?

I just would not do it. Besides what the heck are they putting in that would need 200 amps at a sub panel? Load calc please.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

lighterup said:


> I 'm not there looking at this existing 100 amp main , but I've seen enough booked up 100 amp panels to know , there's probably no room for 2/0 cu's
> nor any adequate wire bending space , nor any terminals left to land the neutral and even if you had space available for a 240 volt breaker , what
> is he using? What OCP is he planning on putting in that will fit 2/0 cu or
> 4/0 SER in it ...correctly fit in it?
> ...


Just installed a 200A sub panel to feed to Tesla Superchargers at a customers house.

I installed the 200A sub panel in the garage and ran the feeders to a Jbox in the crawl space. Out of the Jbox I ran a temp. 100A line to the existing 200A main service, while were on the POCO wait list.

The new 400A is now installed and everything has been transferred over. They can now charge both Tesla's to their hearts content.


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## Chattaroy (Jun 11, 2016)

Holy Cow what a feisty crew! I didn’t ask how to do anything. As a licensed GC, when it was legal, I did more electrical work and won more arguments with subs and inspectors than some of you have or ever will. Then I’d buy them lunch and we’d catch up.

Sure there’s a lot of junk work out there. People are injured and die all the time because of it. The subtleties of any trade or profession are invisible to the person who just wants it now…and cheap. So junk gets bought and sold, and they suffer the consequences. Others really want to do it right, but again have no concept of all of the implications of their ignorance. So as a result: SHTF.

It’s too bad some of the respondents here are so pre-occupied with protecting their trade, and maybe with just trashing people as a regular habit. I like talking about the building industry and the issues we deal with every day with all kinds of trade specialists. It helps me understand their concerns and perspective, and it makes me better at anticipating issues with clients, job bids, and job oversight. I have my own job. No need to get protective or venomous about yours.

To Backstay: I know exactly how you feel about GC’s throwing out quotes like dog biscuits. The reason I ask questions of the trades is to make sure I don’t do that. Thanks for your comments.

To Switched & Majewski: It was 9:00 on a Friday night. I was working on a bid. I don’t call people at that hour. But connecting with you guys seemed like a good idea.

To Lighterup: Get real. Do you have any idea what it takes to attract quality clients and well-paying jobs on a continuous basis? Not the crap most subs rely on day to day. I’m the marketing division for my subs. Can you spell “Marketing”. I create more work than my subs can handle. That’s security, have you created that with your business. Could you take three months off and know a source was just waiting for you. Good for you then, you understand income security.

Oh and Hackwork: That seems like a good name for you. I’m sure you have some valuable knowledge, and I’d welcome it. But getting PO’d to that degree by a simple question? You attract what you think buddy. Think “collaboration”. Your life will get much better.

To all: This site should be a resource, even an inspiration driven by your knowledge and good will. Perhaps replacing the labels, petty complaints, and existential angst with a really supportive attitude would change your communications, your productivity, and your life.
Anyway, I just dropped in hoping people here liked a good conversation. I wish the best for everyone.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

You had to expect some flaming from a forum you just joined late at night!? You had to know with your experience that you'd get resistance. Aside from that, it's only a forum and not the end of the world if someone teases you. I have no problems with you on here or in life in general. But I am a smartass and horrible at derailing threads, it's a curse and a skill. Anywho... Peace out homie.


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## PlugsAndLights (Jan 19, 2016)

Chattaroy said:


> To Hackwork: The more money I make for my subs the happier I am. All of my jobs and subs are top notch. That's because I stay informed, don't make assumptions and treat my subs well. So "guess" again.


Since this forum is supposed to be for electricians, not GC's, any 
criticism given to you by Hackwork is deserved. 
P&L


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Chattaroy said:


> To all: This site should be a resource, even an inspiration driven by your knowledge and good will. Perhaps replacing the labels, petty complaints, and existential angst with a really supportive attitude would change your communications, your productivity, and your life.
> Anyway, I just dropped in hoping people here liked a good conversation. I wish the best for everyone.


Thank you for telling us how the forum should be. I am not sure what we would do without you.

Maybe I should reciprocate, I should find a forum that specifically says for General Contractors *only* and go there to tell them how to act.



> As a licensed GC, when it was legal, I did more electrical work and won more arguments with subs and inspectors than some of you have or ever will.


 You very well might be the one GC who actually knows something about the electrical trade. Or, you may be like all the rest of the GC's who just think they know something about the electrical trade.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

Chattaroy said:


> To all: *This site should be a resource*, even an inspiration driven by your knowledge and good will. Perhaps replacing the labels, petty complaints, and existential angst with a really supportive attitude would change your communications, your productivity, and your life.
> Anyway, I just dropped in hoping people here liked a good conversation. I wish the best for everyone.


It is a great resource for electricians....

Without the petty complaints and existential angst we delve out on here we would probably be forced to take it out on GC's.... Be Happy!:laughing:


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Chattaroy said:


> Holy Cow what a feisty crew! I didn’t ask how to do anything. As a licensed GC, when it was legal, I did more electrical work and won more arguments with subs and inspectors than some of you have or ever will. Then I’d buy them lunch and we’d catch up.
> 
> Sure there’s a lot of junk work out there. People are injured and die all the time because of it. The subtleties of any trade or profession are invisible to the person who just wants it now…and cheap. So junk gets bought and sold, and they suffer the consequences. Others really want to do it right, but again have no concept of all of the implications of their ignorance. So as a result: SHTF.
> 
> ...


You can't say things like " As a licensed GC, when it was legal, I did more electrical work and won more arguments with subs and inspectors than some of you have or ever will." these EC will turn on you. How would you feel if they turned it around and said it to you? I have no use for GCs, I don't need their work or their games. I have more work than I can handle without them. All this without a yellow pages add, business cards or any other advertising. All word of mouth and directly for the customer. The few times I've been around GCs, have left a bad taste in my mouth. You may be different, you may be the greatest. But you came on an electrical forum and started taking swings when you didn't like the answers. You get what you get then.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

backstay said:


> You can't say things like " As a licensed GC, when it was legal, I did more electrical work and won more arguments with subs and inspectors than some of you have or ever will." these EC will turn on you. How would you feel if they turned it around and said it to you? *I have no use for GCs, I don't need their work or their games. I have more work than I can handle without them.* All this without a yellow pages add, business cards or any other advertising. All word of mouth and directly for the customer. The few times I've been around GCs, have left a bad taste in my mouth. You may be different, you may be the greatest. But you came on an electrical forum and started taking swings when you didn't like the answers. You get what you get then.


I have no use for them.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

I tried to be civil, but his attitude rubs me wrong. I thought you guys went easy on him.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Me too. And honestly, I won't remember it in a few days so who cares, right?


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

"GC's are all cut from the same piece of cheesecloth and are all liars. All of them. Every last one " 

I didn't pen that. Romex Racer did. Pay attention. Romex Racer knew his $hit.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

macmikeman said:


> "GC's are all cut from the same piece of cheesecloth and are all liars. All of them. Every last one "
> 
> I didn't pen that. Romex Racer did. Pay attention. Romex Racer knew his $hit.


Are you saying that we should paint the walls red with the blood of any GC who dares to enter?


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

HackWork said:


> Are you saying that we should paint the walls red with the blood of any GC who dares to enter?


Viseration. Or perhaps quartered and then burned at the stake. :thumbup:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

macmikeman said:


> Viseration. Or perhaps quartered and then burned at the stake. :thumbup:


Have you heard of a Blood Eagle? I've always wanted to try it, doing it on a GC would be even better :thumbsup:


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

Chattaroy said:


> Holy Cow what a feisty crew! I didn’t ask how to do anything. As a licensed GC, when it was legal, I did more electrical work and won more arguments with subs and inspectors than some of you have or ever will. Then I’d buy them lunch and we’d catch up.
> 
> Sure there’s a lot of junk work out there. People are injured and die all the time because of it. The subtleties of any trade or profession are invisible to the person who just wants it now…and cheap. So junk gets bought and sold, and they suffer the consequences. Others really want to do it right, but again have no concept of all of the implications of their ignorance. So as a result: SHTF.
> 
> ...


...and yet you still don't have your electrical contractors license?
...your rant did nothing to benefit your position , it just further proved
many of the perspectives about the typical GC..
...and PLEEEEASE...any "pro" Gc who's as busy as you allege you are 
does not have the time to be delving into the electricians scope of work
as you are doing. They actually would be pissed off at their electrician 
for not handling it.

It's not our fault you came on here assuming we're all schmucks.:no:


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

I like working for GC's but you have to understand their personality type. Almost every GC has a huge ego and goes berserk if he is questioned. He doesn't give a rat's a$$ about his employees or subs. It's all about the money.

That being said, if you deal with a GC who has a good client base, you can get a good stream of business yourself. If you stroke his ego and tell him how great he is, you'll get along fine (you don't have to believe it, you just have to say it). 

Once you work with a GC, you will learn how to make extra money off of him. His big ego and refusal to listen will always present opportunities to make money. You will never win a war of egos with a GC. I like to have an inspector do my talking for me. If a red sticker stands between a GC and a progress payment, he will become easy to get along with really fast.

Ultimately, it's about getting paid well and on time and, if I can accomplish that with a GC, I'll play his games.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

99cents said:


> I like working for GC's but you have to understand their personality type. Almost every GC has a huge ego and goes berserk if he is questioned. He doesn't give a rat's a$$ about his employees or subs. It's all about the money.
> 
> That being said, if you deal with a GC who has a good client base, you can get a good stream of business yourself. If you stroke his ego and tell him how great he is, you'll get along fine (you don't have to believe it, you just have to say it).
> 
> ...


I feel sorry for you, because you have to eat from their trough.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

99cents said:


> I like working for GC's but you have to understand their personality type. Almost every GC has a huge ego and goes berserk if he is questioned. He doesn't give a rat's a$$ about his employees or subs. It's all about the money.
> 
> That being said, if you deal with a GC who has a good client base, you can get a good stream of business yourself. If you stroke his ego and tell him how great he is, you'll get along fine (you don't have to believe it, you just have to say it).
> 
> ...




The problem in my State is there is no qualifications to present , nor are
there any "license" requirements. Just need to register and anyone
can register as a GC. A persons criminal background isn't even an issue
as opposed to our trade where it most definitely is.

Because it's so easy to register as a GC and people watch too many
home improvement television shows , PLUS , the element of ego that
you point out , there are too many GC's out there that are BS'rs.

I have found that the "pro" GC just does not have the time or the interest
to get overly involved in my scope of work and EXPECTS me to handle the situation..it's as you say..they just want their mark up.

I just got finished doing exactly what you stated...several years I contracted
all the work from a couple of brothers who build custom homes. 
Absolutely the biggest egomaniacs I've ever met and dealt with , but
as you say...One doesn't have to like someone to take their money and
I did my utmost best to stay on the high road with them.

The problem is , when certain personalities do not jive with your own
and you overstay your dealings , it becomes possible that you just plain
waited too long to walk away from that personality and the inevitable
explosion is like a time bomb waiting to go off. 

My final straw with these guys was as follows...

GC was presenting different mechanical & electrical layout (blue prints)
to their customers at their customer meetings as well as a selling point.
The trades were not ever included or present at these meetings . 
As a matter of FACT , the GC has a written policy that the HO's and the
trades are not allowed to speak to one another in any way. If the HO
wants to come on the project , they are supposed to schedule it with 
the GC and be accompanied by the GC.

This was a standard operating procedure that went on job after job.

The GC submitted prints for trades to bid that were A1 through A6 , no
mechanicals / no electrical layouts...prints just show framing.
Instructions are to bid the job to code along with a spec of fan boxes , 
recess can count.

(Keep in mind the print the HO was looking at with the GC was ELABORATE.
Low voltage cans , extra outlets , 3 way switching out the yazzoo , outdoor
lighting way above and beyond the code requirement etc..etc...)

None of the trades were knowledgeable of this at the time.

It was discovered by a smarter than usual HO who hired an attorney , who
contacted the building department , who then inspected the job per the
print that the GC was using with the HO. The building department failed
the final based upon this FACT.

When the final inspection failed , because the home was not done per print
the two brothers tried to send the **** downhill at the electrician (me) , plumber and HVAC contractors. acting as if they had no idea why the trades
were not doing the job to print.

Lucky for us , this building department sells the electrical and mechanical permits directly to the builder and eliminates the trades from the permit drawing phase of residential jobs. (many building department here do 
this because of loop holes in Ohio residential code / resi classification).

When I got the call from the electrical inspector , he asked me why I did
not wire the home per print. This was the first time I had become aware that
different prints were floating around out there. he also informed me that the
homeowner was suing the GC and us (trades & me)

I told him I wired it the way I bid it as well as any change orders and did 
not know what other print he was refering to.

I went to the building department and got a firsthand look at the electrical layout. I also showed him the print that was presented to me by the HO (via the GC) and basically told them I would absolutely show up for court.

I also let the AHJ know that in light of the fact thatthey sold an electrical permit to the builder using my company name and license without so much
as a notice , that I would now be INSISTING on going back to the job and rewiring the whole job exactly as shown on the print. I would NOT be 
offering an estimate as this would now be T&M due to old work techniques.

please inform the HO and GC of that and while your at it , put it in your 
pipe and smoke it.

The HO refused to take possession of this home and are suing the GC . 
Their claim? The GC did not listen to their wants / desires in design and
did not perform their duties per print provided. 

I called the HVAC contractor and let him know the facts. We were eliminated from the law suit once it was discovered we never had the correct prints.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

That's a nightmare dude. Thank god you got out.


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## Chattaroy (Jun 11, 2016)

I get it, it’s your site. I’m the loathsome enemy. It’s been a gas. Next time I’m looking for good entertainment I might come back and ask what we should do with the GC’s. Thanks guys, have a great Sunday!

BTW PlugsAndLights, Jethro rules.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Chattaroy said:


> I get it, it’s your site. I’m the loathsome enemy.


Only because of your attitude, coming in here telling us how you know more than us, how you don't listen to your "pro" subs, how you have been doing our easy job for 40 years, etc.

If you came in here like a gentleman, you would have received a much nicer welcome.


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

Can someone post that fantastic piece romex racer did a while ago about gcs?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

Chattaroy said:


> I get it, it’s your site. I’m the loathsome enemy. It’s been a gas. Next time I’m looking for good entertainment I might come back and ask what we should do with the GC’s. Thanks guys, have a great Sunday!
> 
> BTW PlugsAndLights, Jethro rules.


Yeah and next time you come here we'll get out the pad lock. You should be on 
the DIY sight , not the Pro electricians talk forum.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Biscuits said:


> Can someone post that fantastic piece romex racer did a while ago about gcs?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Even better would be the sunglasses one...


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

View attachment 83618


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Biscuits said:


> Can someone post that fantastic piece romex racer did a while ago about gcs?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


_I've worked for hundreds of GCs and I honestly have no idea what they do. They've somehow insinuated themselves between the customer and the subs who actually do the work. Then they take credit for a job well done!

I have a couple of good GCs I've worked with for a while, but 95% of them add zero value to the job. 20% of the GCs I work with will abandon the job and 85% will be bankrupt in 18 months. 50% have substance abuse problems and 25% are functionally iliterate.

All the GC brings to the table is he knows the phone numbers of the subs. GCs always want free work and are quick to hire unlicensed, bootleg subs to save a buck.

99% of GCs have no idea of construction scheduling, not a clue as to what sequence the trades must appear in. Even homeowners know that the plumber must install the disposal before I can wire it but this is a mystery to most general contractors.

It wasn't always this way. 30 years ago general contractors were professional businessmen. These days they're just high school drop outs with no impulse control. A general contractor handles a lot of money, sometimes they'll take that $40,000 draw and blow it on a Corvette only later to realize that they have $30,000 of bills coming due....

Only 25% of general contractors actually know their cost of doing business. 75% of GCs don't even charge enough to break even, this utter financial stupidity results in their indignation and outrage when I must charge for extra work. I always give the GC a written work order to sign before I do the extra work they've asked me to, but when I give them a break, they still can't reconcile my "high" prices.

I've seen a million cocksure, wiseass GCs come and go. I meet a new GC about every 10 days, I really don't even bother to learn their names anymore. In the residential remodel and new construction market, the attrition rate is high and I seldom do more than 2 jobs for a GC before get tired of his shenanigans and move on to the next GC. It's impossible for GCs to keep good subs like me, they must be constantly moving, like a shark, always looking for new subs.

The other day I and my crew was wiring a kitchen and the plans indicated 2 dishwashers (this was a nice, luxury kitchen), I bid two dishwashers but I needed some info from the GC, for some reason he happened to be on the job, so I asked my question and he was totally surprised that there were two dishwashers! He obviously never looked at the plans before bidding the job.

The idea that GCs have a lot of responsibility is nonsense. That's like saying the little dog on the hood of the Mack truck carries all the responsibilty for the trip. The subs are liable for the work they do and the GC spends all his time trying to shift his responsibilities to other people, always blaming others for his oversights and lack of supervision.

General contractors are responsible for the public's distrust of contractors in general. As a speciality contractor, I have to overcome this distrust when dealing directly with customers.

I've tried to recommend this fine forum to GCs I meet but the vast majority of GCs are just now embracing Fax machines, they think ContractorTalk.com is a file burned onto an AOL CD.

Nope, the construction industry aint what it used to be..._


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

I'm going to have that laminated and start handing it out.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

HackWork said:


> _I've worked for hundreds of GCs and I honestly have no idea what they do. They've somehow insinuated themselves between the customer and the subs who actually do the work. Then they take credit for a job well done!
> 
> I have a couple of good GCs I've worked with for a while, but 95% of them add zero value to the job. 20% of the GCs I work with will abandon the job and 85% will be bankrupt in 18 months. 50% have substance abuse problems and 25% are functionally iliterate.
> 
> ...


Wow! Thank you for this post! My experiences mirror yours. I cannot even
begin to tell you how sick to death I am of the lack of pro GC's out here ,
but then I guess I don't need to.

I have found it so tiring that I'm not even entertaining calls from RESI GC's anymore. I'm running ads that say "Resi GC"s need not call"...

My previous post articulates the problem. Residential GC's do not have to 
show any qualifications to register as "pro" GC and our State does not have
a "license" requirement for them. They just register.

Absolutely agree with your take on this and I suspect the public is getting
wiser because I'm seeing more projects run by the property owners more
than ever before.

I have dealt with resi builders who will make you go to their home to pick
up a print only to discover they really want to show off their "Noah's Ark" 
full of toys...2 jet skis ..2 atv's ..2 boats ... 2 snow mobiles etcc...only
to find out later , they don't pay their trades..

Also started doing work for a guy who brags about being a pro bass fish-
erman ..enters all the summer tournaments ...only does construction in 
the spring & summer and always disappeared after the job was done .

He used money he owed his trades for expenses and entry fees for the various tournaments.

The states need to tighten up and regulate these scum bags.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

lighterup said:


> Wow! Thank you for this post! My experiences mirror yours. I cannot even
> begin to tell you how sick to death I am of the lack of pro GC's out here ,
> but then I guess I don't need to.
> 
> ...



Hacks didn't author that, Romex Racer did.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

macmikeman said:


> Hacks didn't author that, Romex Racer did.


:001_huh:Who's that?


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

I thought there was another one that RR wrote that was even better than that. I know he was famous for those rants so there's more than one, but he wrote one that was absolutely epic. The one Hax posted is not the one I remember, but it's the same basic theme.


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

We really need a catalogue of all the great posts by romex racer. I really like the one where he talks about his crew rolling up and starting a remodel and the gc adds a couple smoke detectors


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Biscuits said:


> We really need a catalogue of all the great posts by romex racer. I really like the one where he talks about his crew rolling up and starting a remodel and the gc adds a couple smoke detectors
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Did he flip out?


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

We screwed up, finally we had the GC of GCs on here. The pinnacle, the top, and we let him go! We could have learned so much from him and his vast knowledge(that overshadowed our's). But no, we run him out and now we will forever be less for it! No wonder we are just ignorant electricians who never learn.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MTW said:


> I thought there was another one that RR wrote that was even better than that. I know he was famous for those rants so there's more than one, but he wrote one that was absolutely epic. The one Hax posted is not the one I remember, but it's the same basic theme.


_Now for my real life experiences. I'm an electrical sub contractor who in the last 30 years has worked for hundreds of general contractors and my experience has left me unimpressed.

General contractors typically have no skills what-so-ever. They have somehow insinuated themselves between the customer and the people who really do the work (subs). They ingratiate themselves with the customers and sell themselves based on their mastery of construction scheduling and their building savvy.

15% of all jobs I start with GCs, by the time I'm ready to finish, they have abandoned the job and are in hiding.

I am ALWAYS scheduled to begin rough while framing is in progress. I mean ceiling joists are not even up yet. 

GCs have no money. They live like parasites off the flow of money to the subs. 90% of general contractors have no idea what they should charge and therefore take jobs for prices that make no financial sense and then try to recoup money by bullying the subs.

I've never seen an industry like general contracting, such a wide distance between the bottom rung and the top. I have one GC that works out of the trunk of his car, barely scraping out an existance and another GC with a beautiful showroom and a fleet of trucks. 

GCs seem to lie constantly, about the customer, the job, the schedule, etc. Most GCs are uncouth slobs, I have one GC who is always in the habit of picking at his crotch, no matter who's around, the customer, etc.

I'm finishing a new house right now for a GC who is easily the dumbest man on the planet. After the house was framed, the inspector pointed out that the Glue-Lams were upside down. After the house was wrapped prior to stucco, someone pointed out the Lath was upside down also.

The other day one of my GC customers sent me out to rough a large room addition. No interior walls. I called him and said "what's the deal?" he said, just suspend all your plugs and switches from the ceiling and he'll build the walls later...

I try to do the best work I can but the GC's are there to create obstacles. They will pile 4 different trades in a small bathroom and have no regard for wasting people's time. 

I just had a GC call me out to finish a large kitchen remodel. No cabinets, no doors, no floor, the drywall was not even painted. I want to finish the job all at once but most GCs are incapable of having the jobsite ready, you must make a myriad of trips, install appliances one day, come back 4 days later to install light fixtures, 3 days after that for the AC... I had one idiot ask if I could come by every morning and install one light fixture each morning, I said I didn't bid the job that way, he was not pleased.

Now don't get me wrong, I have meet some top notch general contractors, professional and well thought out. But most, especially in the residential market are e-myth clowns without a clue.

I'm sure you guys have plenty of electrical contractor stories, and I apologise if I've offended any of you, like I said, I've come to have great respect for you guys by reading your posts.

The problem is anybody can get in to the contracting business. A few are professional enough to do well and earn good reputations, but most won't last, they will crap out at around year three...

I think we all agree: Contracting is not as easy as it looks._


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

Majewski said:


> Did he flip out?




No he was a genius. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Biscuits said:


> No he was a genius.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I'm not questioning intelligence, I'm curious what he did when the gc starting putting in smokes.


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

Majewski said:


> I'm not questioning intelligence, I'm curious what he did when the gc starting putting in smokes.




Oh it was just a story he posted with great dialogue and amazing character arcs. Really something. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Biscuits said:


> Oh it was just a story he posted with great dialogue and amazing character arcs. Really something.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Cool. I haven't searched the forum but... Where did he go?


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

There was a shootout in a bar down in Buenos Aries and........


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

macmikeman said:


> There was a shootout in a bar down in Buenos Aries and........


........never mind.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Lateral feed.


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

Chattaroy said:


> I get it, it’s your site. I’m the loathsome enemy. It’s been a gas. Next time I’m looking for good entertainment I might come back and ask what we should do with the GC’s. Thanks guys, have a great Sunday!
> 
> BTW PlugsAndLights, Jethro rules.


Sorry for the way you have been treated here, but I do sympathize with comments made by electricians. I have been in business since 1979, and all the GC's I've worked for have ranged from mediocre to horrible. I only have 2 ideas concerning why this is so:

1. I have attracted the wrong kind of GC's

2. Most people are not very good at what the do, whether GC, banker, plumber,
auto mechanic, etc.


I don't remember your original question, but it has probably been answered before, you may want to search old posts.


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

As far as the 200 amp sub panel fed from existing 100 amp panel, this will work fine and can be code compliant, however as others have mentioned, it will likely be overloaded in the future as more loads are carelessly added, CYA


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

readydave8 said:


> Sorry for the way you have been treated here, but I do sympathize with comments made by electricians. I have been in business since 1979, and all the GC's I've worked for have ranged from mediocre to horrible. I only have 2 ideas concerning why this is so:
> 
> 1. I have attracted the wrong kind of GC's
> 
> ...


His question was answered more than once in the first five responses. He didn't like the blowback from his statement that he had done more code compliant electrical work than most on here. It went south from there. A GC asking electrical advice is the same as a DIYer. He got butt hurt and stomped off.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

He also made another thread in which he bragged about his 40 years of experience doing electrical work as a GC and only needing us peons because municipalities started requiring electrical licenses.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

HackWork said:


> He also made another thread in which he bragged about his 40 years of experience doing electrical work as a GC and only needing us peons because municipalities started requiring electrical licenses.


Here is the thing...... He was a bit of a butt, so he got the butt....

HO's and GC's have come on here and asked legit questions with genuineness, he was too busy tooting his own horn to listen.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Switched said:


> Here is the thing...... He was a bit of a butt, so he got the butt....
> 
> HO's and GC's have come on here and asked legit questions with genuineness, he was too busy tooting his own horn to listen.


Agreed.

I would like a few decent GC's to post here, it could only help to see their incite, whether we agree with it or not.


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## drewsserviceco (Aug 1, 2014)

HackWork said:


> Agreed.
> 
> 
> 
> I would like a few decent GC's to post here, it could only help to see their incite, whether we agree with it or not.



I think they are like unicorns and dragons. Cool to imagine, but don't really exist.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

drewsserviceco said:


> I think they are like unicorns and dragons. Cool to imagine, but don't really exist.


I've known a few....... but I also believe in unicorns!:thumbsup:


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

I've known of one great one. Just one. He also got out fast for something better. I do know of one other guy who isn't bad but.... He might be a figment of my imagination.


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## drewsserviceco (Aug 1, 2014)

I have not made a habit of working for GC's due to the many reasons we are all painfully aware of. I have not met one GC that was not more hassle than they were worth. I have met some better than others but every single one has at least one deal breaker making them not worth working for.


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

yeah only reason I posted was cause he said that if I said something supportive he'd have plenty of work for me later on


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

readydave8 said:


> yeah only reason I posted was cause he said that if I said something supportive he'd have plenty of work for me later on


I LOLed :laughing:


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

readydave8 said:


> yeah only reason I posted was cause he said that if I said something supportive he'd have plenty of work for me later on


And if you give him a good price, he'll spread the word for you too!?


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## Chattaroy (Jun 11, 2016)

*Hey Ready Dave*



readydave8 said:


> As far as the 200 amp sub panel fed from existing 100 amp panel, this will work fine and can be code compliant, however as others have mentioned, it will likely be overloaded in the future as more loads are carelessly added, CYA


It's not a 100 amp panel. It's a 40 year old 200 amp GE with a 100 amp breaker feeding laterals (that that were passed back then) to a large out-building that had an approved/permitted 200 amp sub before it was destroyed. The main box is a rat's nest, so we plan to replace it with a 400 amp. This is a property with other out-buildings and lots of potential demand (rural).

The out-building was destroyed. I know I'm pretty useless (a blood sucker, egotist, no idea what construction is all about, particularly determined to make electricians miserable, and worthy of a stake through the heart for entering your site and asking a question), but I have this team of people and we build things...and I agreed to rebuild this one. Stupid and self-servicing as it is that's what I plan to do.I

I just wanted some feedback on replacing the 200 amp in the out-building (lots of breakers) with a new 200. In the past I would have used the existing (and therefore grandfathered) lateral and run it to a locked down 100 amp breaker in the sub-panel.

I was just looking for some feedback. But I got so much more. I'm having some friends (yeah, GC's actually have friends) over next weekend. I was thinking of pulling up this site on the big screen (yeah, decadent contractors with their big screens) and asking you guys why those sillies at Home Despot try to sell "old" work boxes when there are brand new ones right next to them at pretty much the same price. You could blast us off the planet...no holds barred...blood on the walls...who's in?


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## Chattaroy (Jun 11, 2016)

*Hey Ready Dave*



readydave8 said:


> As far as the 200 amp sub panel fed from existing 100 amp panel, this will work fine and can be code compliant, however as others have mentioned, it will likely be overloaded in the future as more loads are carelessly added, CYA


It's not a 100 amp panel. It's a 40 year old 200 amp GE with a 100 amp breaker feeding laterals (that that were passed back then) to a large out-building that had an approved/permitted 200 amp sub before it was destroyed. The main box is a rat's nest, so we plan to replace it with a 400 amp. This is a property with other out-buildings and lots of potential demand (rural).

The out-building was destroyed. I know I'm pretty useless (a blood sucker, egotist, no idea what construction is all about, particularly determined to make electricians miserable, and worthy of a stake through the heart for entering your site and asking a question), but I have this team of people and we build things...and I agreed to rebuild this one. Stupid and self-servicing as it is that's what I plan to do.I

I just wanted some feedback on replacing the 200 amp in the out-building (lots of breakers) with a new 200. In the past I would have used the existing (and therefore grandfathered) lateral and run it to a locked down 100 amp breaker in the sub-panel.

I was just looking for some feedback. But I got so much more. I'm having some friends (yeah, GC's actually have friends) over next weekend. I was thinking of pulling up this site on the big screen (yeah, decadent contractors with their big screens) and asking you guys why those sillies at Home Despot try to sell "old" work boxes when there are brand new ones right next to them at pretty much the same price. You could blast us off the planet...no holds barred...blood on the walls...who's in?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

You're doing an excellent job making yourself look better. I eagerly await your next post.


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## zac (May 11, 2009)

Chattaroy said:


> It's not a 100 amp panel. It's a 40 year old 200 amp GE with a 100 amp breaker feeding laterals (that that were passed back then) to a large out-building that had an approved/permitted 200 amp sub before it was destroyed. The main box is a rat's nest, so we plan to replace it with a 400 amp. This is a property with other out-buildings and lots of potential demand (rural).
> 
> The out-building was destroyed. I know I'm pretty useless (a blood sucker, egotist, no idea what construction is all about, particularly determined to make electricians miserable, and worthy of a stake through the heart for entering your site and asking a question), but I have this team of people and we build things...and I agreed to rebuild this one. Stupid and self-servicing as it is that's what I plan to do.I
> 
> ...


If that's how you entertain your guest....[emoji22] 

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## drewsserviceco (Aug 1, 2014)

For someone that knows so much about electrical he sure uses a lot of terms I've never heard another electrician use. 

Sorry, I have to go now. Early morning pulling laterals and all.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Chattaroy said:


> main box


That's all I needed to read to know this guy has never done electrical work in his life.


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## drewsserviceco (Aug 1, 2014)

Also, unless your building things for free, it is self serving. 

Pretty much everything I do is self serving. 

I served a five year apprenticeship to learn a trade, I spent years mastering that trade, I do quality work and treat my customers well......but not as a charity. 

I go above and beyond and am concerned about my customers well being, but not as a selfless act. At the very least it makes me feel good, and that can be self serving, hopefully I am well compensated. 

You sir, can leave your high horse at the door.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

MTW said:


> That's all I needed to read to know this guy has never done electrical work in his life.


NEC. ARTICLE 100 SERVICE ENTRANCE CONDUCTORS, UNDERGROUND SYSTEM. Sorry about the caps. Old guy.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

drewsserviceco said:


> For someone that knows so much about electrical he sure uses a lot of terms I've never heard another electrician use.
> 
> Sorry, I have to go now. Early morning pulling laterals and all.


You too....


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

macmikeman said:


> NEC. ARTICLE 100 SERVICE ENTRANCE CONDUCTORS, UNDERGROUND SYSTEM. Sorry about the caps. Old guy.


I don't know what this means, as I quoted his amateur terminology.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

MTW said:


> I don't know what this means, as I quoted his amateur terminology.


Go read it. Poco here always calls the underground cables in their system ''latterels" (sp). So lots of the local guys call pulling feeders underground - pulling in (sp).


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

macmikeman said:


> Go read it. Poco here always calls the underground cables in their system ''latterels" (sp). So lots of the local guys call pulling feeders underground - pulling in (sp).


Cool story bro.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Chattaroy said:


> It's not a 100 amp panel. It's a 40 year old 200 amp GE with a 100 amp breaker feeding laterals (that that were passed back then) to a large out-building that had an approved/permitted 200 amp sub before it was destroyed. The main box is a rat's nest, so we plan to replace it with a 400 amp. This is a property with other out-buildings and lots of potential demand (rural).
> 
> The out-building was destroyed. I know I'm pretty useless (a blood sucker, egotist, no idea what construction is all about, particularly determined to make electricians miserable, and worthy of a stake through the heart for entering your site and asking a question), but I have this team of people and we build things...and I agreed to rebuild this one. Stupid and self-servicing as it is that's what I plan to do.I
> 
> ...


I think this post is an improvement. You almost sound like an electrical diva now! :thumbsup:


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## drewsserviceco (Aug 1, 2014)

macmikeman said:


> You too....



Mac, I like you, but I feel like you're calling me out and I'm not sure why. 

What I had to say to the GC was partly due to his overall attitude towards subs and partly due to the fact that his tone is reminiscent of every GC I've had personal contact with, and obviously it hasn't been all peaches and cream. 

I chose to make fun of his use of lateral, but that was only one of several words in multiple examples that indicate, to me anyway, he doesn't know what he's talking about. Usually this wouldn't be an issue for me by itself, but it becomes offensive when the person doesn't respect our trade and what it takes to be good at it.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Not all GC's are bad. I just got a job with a GC I have worked with for two years. 20% deposit/60% on rough-in/20% on finish. Good pricing in a competitive market. He always pays his bills and pays electronically, which is nice. I have used this guy as a sub myself on jobs predominantly electrical.

This guy is different, though. He's a vegetarian. Most GC's are meat eaters.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

drewsserviceco said:


> Mac, I like you, but I feel like you're calling me out and I'm not sure why.
> 
> What I had to say to the GC was partly due to his overall attitude towards subs and partly due to the fact that his tone is reminiscent of every GC I've had personal contact with, and obviously it hasn't been all peaches and cream.
> 
> I chose to make fun of his use of lateral, but that was only one of several words in multiple examples that indicate, to me anyway, he doesn't know what he's talking about. Usually this wouldn't be an issue for me by itself, but it becomes offensive when the person doesn't respect our trade and what it takes to be good at it.


If you go back to the previous page you will see that I also made fun of the lateral feed: http://www.electriciantalk.com/f5/sub-panel-breaker-rating-162650/index4/#post2909978

This macmikeman better not be messing with us, that's all I have to say


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Oh boy if he is, it's going to get ugly.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

:icon_cry:


Chattaroy said:


> It's not a 100 amp panel. It's a 40 year old 200 amp GE with a 100 amp breaker feeding laterals (that that were passed back then) to a large out-building that had an approved/permitted 200 amp sub before it was destroyed. The main box is a rat's nest, so we plan to replace it with a 400 amp. This is a property with other out-buildings and lots of potential demand (rural).
> 
> The out-building was destroyed. I know I'm pretty useless (a blood sucker, egotist, no idea what construction is all about, particularly determined to make electricians miserable, and worthy of a stake through the heart for entering your site and asking a question), but I have this team of people and we build things...and I agreed to rebuild this one. Stupid and self-servicing as it is that's what I plan to do.I
> 
> ...


:sleep1:


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## nbb (Jul 12, 2014)

I have heard underground feeds from the secondary of a PoCo transformer called a "lateral" around here, if it is overhead, then "aerial" and "drop" are used. 

This doesn't apply to many commercial builds where we (as inside wiremen) run and pull the secondary wiring to a "turf hugger" style transformer, with separate compartments for HV and LV sides. Then a number of colloquial terms are used for that feeder run.

If it runs down from a pole pig and into conduit underground, and is pulled by the PoCo, we just call it a lateral.

Then again, I was working with a guy from Indiana, and he had not heard the term RS cover, for raised, or industrial cover. I am in Ohio, so regional terms can be small.

No comment on GCs, except that I am currently at a job with the most piss-poor, least coordinated general contractor I have ever seen, especially for a supposed 25 million dollar project.


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## PlugsAndLights (Jan 19, 2016)

99cents said:


> This guy is different, though. He's a vegetarian. Most GC's are meat eaters.


Am I missing something here? Are vegetarian and meat eaters 
euphemisms? 
I recall you wanna eat steak, not kraft dinner. Is there room for 
Broccoli and apples too? 

Think I'll have a fermented beverage. 
P&L


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

PlugsAndLights said:


> Am I missing something here? Are vegetarian and meat eaters
> euphemisms?
> I recall you wanna eat steak, not kraft dinner. Is there room for
> Broccoli and apples too?
> ...


I have vodka!


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