# Gas meter grounding



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

It's not the meters they are bonding, it is the gas pipe. And it's required if they used CSST inside of the building. I would make sure that they didn't renovate the units and use CSST before you disconnect the bonds.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

It is bonded on the load side of the gas meter and there should be a dielectric fitting between the meter an the pipes. The power company needs to leave i alone assuming there is a dielectric fitting. Why does the power company get involved in this anyway.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

HackWork said:


> It's not the meters they are bonding, it is the gas pipe. And it's required if they used CSST inside of the building. I would make sure that they didn't renovate the units and use CSST before you disconnect the bonds.




CSST? 


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

Dennis Alwon said:


> It is bonded on the load side of the gas meter and there should be a dielectric fitting between the meter an the pipes. The power company needs to leave i alone assuming there is a dielectric fitting. Why does the power company get involved in this anyway.




I’m not sure but how can I confirm this ? Not sure how to proceed here. Didn’t codes for grounding to gas pipes change ? I thought this wasn’t allowed ? 

I believe it was that gas utility that had a problem with this.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

CSST = Corrugated Stainless Steel Tubing


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## glen1971 (Oct 10, 2012)

WronGun said:


> I’m not sure but how can I confirm this ? Not sure how to proceed here. Didn’t codes for grounding to gas pipes change ? I thought this wasn’t allowed ?
> 
> I believe it was that gas utility that had a problem with this.
> 
> ...


Use a volt meter set to DC and measure across the unions on the meter. If you read zero volts, there is no insulating union or it has been defeated by a jumper. If you read a value, that will the difference in potential from their cathodic protection system and the bonded downstream side of the meter. Depending on the system, they may have a pulse rectifier, so the value may not be seen instantly when measuring across the union.

The biggest difference is someone probably saw all of the jumpers and hasn't seen gas lines inside houses bonded before, as all they were staring at was the meter.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Csst was a yellow jacketed flexible gas line. When it came out it was a great time saver however, there was a major issue with it when lightning struck a home. The lightning would puncture the steel jacket and create a torch. Many homes burned because of this stuff and somehow they still allow it if it is bonded. One way to bond it is to connect to the hard gas pipe and that in turn bonds the CSST.

Now we see more of the black jacketed csst which is supposed to not need any bonding. We bond it anyway just to be safe. Of course, no one is really sure if the bonding helps or not.

The code will not allow us to use the gas pipe as an electrode-- 10' or more of metal pipe in the earth hence the reason for this dielectric fitting which separates the inside piping from the underground piping.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

WronGun said:


> I’m not sure but how can I confirm this ? Not sure how to proceed here. Didn’t codes for grounding to gas pipes change ? I thought this wasn’t allowed ?
> 
> I believe it was that gas utility that had a problem with this.
> 
> ...


I would call the gas company. They should know


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

BTW, I would not remove that bonding as it will be on your butt. Let the company who installed it remove it and remove the csst or get the gas company to install dielectric fittings.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

The odd thing is that this community is massive and is made up of big 24 unit buildings and the majority of the buildings don’t have this grounding setup at the gas meters and the buildings are all identical. 


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

WronGun said:


> The odd thing is that this community is massive and is made up of big 24 unit buildings and the majority of the buildings don’t have this grounding setup at the gas meters and the buildings are all identical.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Did they have renovations in those units?

They use CSST for gas pipes during renovations just like they use PEX for plumbing pipe.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

HackWork said:


> Did they have renovations in those units?
> 
> They use CSST for gas pipes during renovations just like they use PEX for plumbing pipe.


I wondering about that too .,,

If that was more than 30 year old system more likely they just used straight black pipe.

I am not too famauir with state laws and codes in Wrongun location is so I cant really comment but they have fuel gas code I think it was mention it before on the NFPA but which verison they are using that I dont know yet.

but Wrongun .,, do not do anything with gaz meters let those gaz guys deal with it unless they ask you for bonding situation but only on load side with dielectric union is on. the chance of find one is there is kinda a gamble. all it depending on how recent they did upgrade the gaz meters. 

I heard but not confirmed on this one many inspectors are getting little flicky with CSST so they rather have hard pipe like black pipe or heavy wall copper tubing, that all I know of.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

They could have moved the stoves, added washer/dryer to the units, added fireplaces, moved the water heaters or furnaces, etc. and used CSST.

Doing that would require the bonds in your picture, like the diagram I posted shows.


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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

If it's been that way forever, why is it a problem now????


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

If there is a dielectric union, there's probably just one to the left somewhere, or if the property is fed with yellow plastic, then the dielectric union would be irrelevant.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

I’m going to call the utility engineer and see what the issue is here. Im not making any assumptions. 


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

WronGun said:


> I’m going to call the utility engineer and see what the issue is here. Im not making any assumptions.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 Even if he told you to remove the bonds, you still can’t just remove them.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

HackWork said:


> CSST = Corrugated Stainless Steel Tubing
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 134052




Maybe I’m reading it wrong but doesn’t the diagram show 3 other options (Or). 

When is grounding to gas line required ? Only if the lines are CSST? 

I’ve done many services resi and commercial and never grounded to gas, Rods and water only.


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## Jerome208 (May 10, 2013)

Don't think of it as grounding TO a gas line.


You are bonding the gas lines to all other metal in the building and the main electrical ground so it can never become energized.


NFPA54, fuel gas code:


"(a) Each aboveground portion of a gas piping system upstream from the equipment shutoff valve shall be electrically continuous and bonded to any grounding electrode, as defined by NFPA 70, National Electrical Code.


(b) Gas piping shall not be used as a grounding electrode conductor."


(a) is so the gas pipe will not be energized by something shorting to it and (b) is why they install a dielectric union before it dives into the dirt.


The way I see it, the installation as pictured is correct and removing that bond would make it incorrect.


If they complain, move the bond wires inside the wall where the nosy gas co. can't see it.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

WronGun said:


> Maybe I’m reading it wrong but doesn’t the diagram show 3 other options (Or).


 Yes, you are reading it wrong. 
There are multiple options to bond the gas line. There are not multiple options to avoid bonding it. If you removed the bond from the ground rod you would have to run it to the panel or the Ufer, etc. You still need that bond on the gas lines.



> When is grounding to gas line required ? Only if the lines are CSST?
> 
> I’ve done many services resi and commercial and never grounded to gas, Rods and water only.


You are not "grounding to the gas line". You are not using the gas line as a ground, grounding electrode, etc. 

You are bonding the gas line to the electrical grounding system in order to absorb a lightning strike that may come in on that gas system and then arc out of the CSST, causing a hole in it. As Dennis explained, that hole becomes a torch, causing a fire.

A little over a month ago I had to go bond the gas system in the same way as your's because the customer had a gas fireplace installed and the installer used CSST. The inspector made them bond the gas system (as the code requires), so I ran a #6 from the metal pipe near the meter to the panel.

Here is a good article from my state:



> There has been some confusion as to whether Section 310.1.1 of the International Fuel Gas Code (IFGC)/2009 and Section G2411.1.1 of the International Residential Code (IRC)/2009 are in direct conflict with Section 309.1 and Section G2410.1, respectively, of the same codes, along with Section 250.104(B) of the National Electrical Code (NEC)/2008. We believe the confusion lies in the words of Section 309.1 (IRC)/G2410.1 (IFGC) as follows: "Gas piping shall not be used as a grounding electrode." In short, bonding the gas CSST piping system does, by default, make it part of the electrical service grounding electrode system, it however is not being USED as the grounding electrode.
> 
> The IRC/2009 and IFGC/2009 state: "G2411.1.1 (310.1.1) CSST. Corrugated stainless steel tubing (CSST) gas piping systems shall be bonded to the electrical service grounding electrode system at the point where the gas service enters the building. The bonding jumper shall be not smaller than 6 AWG copper wire or equivalent."
> 
> The purpose of the bonding jumper required by these sections is to reduce the likelihood of damage to the CSST caused by the electrical energy from an indirect lightning strike. As you know, NOTHING is capable of protecting ANYTHING from a direct lightning strike. In the case of an indirect strike, the electrical energy could travel along metal piping and tubing and "jump" off to other metal components in the building. This causes an arcing that could burn and perforate the wall of CSST tubing due to the lack of thickness of its exterior wall thus causing a gas leak. Per the IRC/2009 Commentary, the bonding of the CSST directly to the electrical service grounding electrode system has been shown in laboratory testing to greatly reduce this risk. Remember that the bonding clamp must connect to the rigid steel piping at the point where the gas service enters the building and may be located either inside or outside the building. The bonding conductor must be continuous with the other end connected to the steel enclosure of the electrical service equipment or the grounded conductor at the electrical service or the grounding electrode conductor (if od sufficient size) between the service equipment and the grounding electrode(s) or one or more of the grounding electrodes for the electrical system. The bonding jumper may be connected as per the diagram below. The diagram is a reprint, with permission from the International Code Council (ICC), from the IRC/2009 Commentary. As you can see, ICC Commentaries provide wonderful insight into the intent of the code provisions and are a useful tool in any code official’s library.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I believe those bonds are where they need to be and more information is needed before anything gets done to this. Also the manufacturers instructions for the particular brand of CSST may need to be consulted on what they require for bonding as well.


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## michaelruthers79 (Aug 15, 2019)

There are commercial construction Townsville contractors that will do this for you. This is very important.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

michaelruthers79 said:


> There are commercial construction Townsville contractors that will do this for you. This is very important.


BEWARE! commercial construction Townsville contractors are scammers. They stole my money. The owner raped my dog. commercial construction Townsville contractors like to diddle monkeys and steal from piggy banks. They will go through your wife's panty drawer and wear your favorite overcoat while furiously masturbating. 

commercial construction Townsville contractors is a 1 star contractor with a negative BBB rating.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

HackWork said:


> BEWARE! commercial construction Townsville contractors are scammers. They stole my money. The owner raped my dog. commercial construction Townsville contractors like to diddle monkeys and steal from piggy banks. They will go through your wife's panty drawer and wear your favorite overcoat while furiously masturbating.
> 
> commercial construction Townsville contractors is a 1 star contractor with a negative BBB rating.


Don't hold back! Tell us what you REALLY think!:surprise:


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## VELOCI3 (Aug 15, 2019)

NY it’s not mandatory to bond the gas lines but in CT it is. Makes sense to have all the conductive pathways in a structure on the same equipotential grounding plane. Especially if the piping is direct buried


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