# Aluminum Feeder?



## shwadaddy76 (Apr 28, 2013)

As a VE (value eng.) option on a chiller install, I'm providing alum. as an alternate to copper for a 1600A 480V feeder. I may also price an alum MC cable as an alternate to wire/conduit. Does anyone with experience pulling alum (500kcmil or so) have any advice? The only time I've used alum was years ago with SEU/SER in resi work. It was light as hell and ridiculously easy to bend, as I remember. Any considerations to make when pulling long runs of it? Any techniques for installing long runs of large MC cable? Use pulleys, or will it pull across strut racks without getting hung up?


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

Is it more cost effective really? In cu you'd need 4 parallel runs at 600 mcm and in al you'd need 5 runs of 600. How long is it? If it's fairly long that's a whole other conduit run to be installed. To do this run in 4 parallel sets with al you'd need 900 mcm lol


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## shwadaddy76 (Apr 28, 2013)

560' x 4 parallel runs of 600 cu. Can't remember the Alum size that I settled on - don't have my notes handy, but it was either 500 or 600. The alum savings was over 80K, even with more runs.


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

It'd be (5) runs at 600 and (6) runs at 500. If you're piping that's a lot more work. If you go with the mc cable have fun, I'd love to watch it happen. Look at the job specs and the chiller specs closely, I wouldn't be surprised if somewhere it states copper conductors only. I do a lot of these installations and I've found smaller copper conductors and less pipe work is the way to go.


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## ghostwriter (Nov 1, 2007)

Make sure the mc cable has a properly sized equipment ground.

Common problem when mc is paralleled.


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

ghostwriter said:


> Make sure the mc cable has a properly sized equipment ground. Common problem when mc is paralleled.


Yup, that's another 350 mcm conductor for al


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

What's feeding the chiller? I don't work with much other than square d and their molded case I-line breakers stop at 1200 amps and from there it's stand alone breaker cabinet sections. That also brings up the task of terminating 5 or 6 600mcm conductors per phase on a breaker. It might require pin connectors or a special order lug assembly. Sorry if I'm rambling I drank too much mt dew tonight


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

Cletis B said:


> You need to do it using simpull thhn aluminum. All your info and how to do it is right here http://www.southwire.com/documents/SIMpull_Solutions_Borchure_web.pdf


That's all I use. It's the cats ass


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## zen (Jun 15, 2009)

ponyboy said:


> What's feeding the chiller? I don't work with much other than square d and their molded case I-line breakers stop at 1200 amps and from there it's stand alone breaker cabinet sections. That also brings up the task of terminating 5 or 6 600mcm conductors per phase on a breaker. It might require pin connectors or a special order lug assembly. Sorry if I'm rambling I drank too much mt dew tonight


I agree. I saw a jacka $$ foreman try to prove 600 al would fit in a 500 rated breaker, it fit and the lug stripped when he tightened it.

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## shwadaddy76 (Apr 28, 2013)

ponyboy said:


> It'd be (5) runs at 600 and (6) runs at 500. If you're piping that's a lot more work. If you go with the mc cable have fun, I'd love to watch it happen. Look at the job specs and the chiller specs closely, I wouldn't be surprised if somewhere it states copper conductors only. I do a lot of these installations and I've found smaller copper conductors and less pipe work is the way to go.


Def will have to be copper from local disc to the units


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## zen (Jun 15, 2009)

All al til the mwbc 

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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

shwadaddy76 said:


> Def will have to be copper from local disc to the units


 Who makes the chiller? Almost all the ones ive done have had an integrated disconnect on the unit


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

shwadaddy76 said:


> As a VE (value eng.) option on a chiller install, I'm providing alum. as an alternate to copper for a 1600A 480V feeder. I may also price an alum MC cable as an alternate to wire/conduit. Does anyone with experience pulling alum (500kcmil or so) have any advice? The only time I've used alum was years ago with SEU/SER in resi work. It was light as hell and ridiculously easy to bend, as I remember. Any considerations to make when pulling long runs of it? Any techniques for installing long runs of large MC cable? Use pulleys, or will it pull across strut racks without getting hung up?


It is so easy to install, especially long runs that you will hate going back to copper.
All of the weight problems vanish, labor costs and injuries are a huge plus.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

zen said:


> I agree. I saw a jacka $$ foreman try to prove 600 al would fit in a 500 rated breaker, it fit and the lug stripped when he tightened it.
> 
> Sent from my SPH-D710BST using electriciantalk.com mobile app


Should have either ordered the correct lugs or used lollipops.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

ponyboy said:


> is it more cost effective really? In cu you'd need 4 parallel runs at 600 mcm and in al you'd need 5 runs of 600. How long is it? If it's fairly long that's a whole other conduit run to be installed. To do this run in 4 parallel sets with al you'd need 900 mcm lol


600 al $2.20
500 cu $9.75.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Zen, I gotta tell you, if I had a job that big I would have bought a bender.


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

Large aluminum feeders should be outlawed


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## zen (Jun 15, 2009)

Sbn33 why is that? I dont own any thing its not my company. I just ran the pvc up into the tap pad and I would have stacked 3 in front of 3 from the disc. Helped pull all the wire . Mounted the panels and hooked up the xfmrs. If I remember it was 600 al from xfmr to LV panel . Total pain in the a $$

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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

ponyboy said:


> I'm trolling like cletis.



We know.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

zen said:


> Sbn33 why is that? I dont own any thing its not my company. I just ran the pvc up into the tap pad and I would have stacked 3 in front of 3 from the disc. Helped pull all the wire . Mounted the panels and hooked up the xfmrs. If I remember it was 600 al from xfmr to LV panel . Total pain in the a $$
> 
> Sent from my SPH-D710BST using electriciantalk.com mobile app


I have way to much pride to use that many factory sweeps.


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

sbrn33 said:


> I have way to much pride to use that many factory sweeps.


It's pretty typical to see factory bends after 2" since that's where the middle tier benders stop at and many smaller shops don't have an 881 or similar. We've got one but I still use bigger factory sweeps on small runs but that's because I'm lazy and don't like setting it up


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

I understand that, but if you are going to take on a job like that you should have the tools to do the job. Nothing worse than looking like a maintenance man.
I am guessing that was a $60K job. I $10K bender would not be out of line.


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## zen (Jun 15, 2009)

Why do u consider it better to bend them and not better to use factory. Is it a matter of being mechanically sounder. 

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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

zen said:


> Why do u consider it better to bend them and not better to use factory. Is it a matter of being mechanically sounder. Sent from my SPH-D710BST using electriciantalk.com mobile app


Less fittings, fewer points of hang up, less money, better rigidity, less overall material. Imagine having a big project at a dead stop because the nearest 4" 90 or 45 is 2 states away


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## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

sbrn33 said:


> I have way to much pride to use that many factory sweeps.


It's only electrical work. If your self worth is determined by whether you used factory sweeps or bent them yourself, you should seek professional help. Who cares? Install the conduit, pull the wire, get paid. You aren't painting the Mona Lisa.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

EBFD6 said:


> It's only electrical work. If your self worth is determined by whether you used factory sweeps or bent them yourself, you should seek professional help. Who cares? Install the conduit, pull the wire, get paid. You aren't painting the Mona Lisa.


You will never be able to work for me. If you don't understand the difference now you never will.


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

sbrn33 said:


> You will never be able to work for me. If you don't understand the difference now you never will.


. I know the difference ! One whole hell of a lot of labor for starters ! That whole pipe run could be done with factory fittings , while someone is still tweaking 90's . T and M bend whatever you want / contract job , factory bends it is . Just my 2 cents


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

For the record , his work looks great regardless of factory bends or not . The only one who will ever care about stuff like that is the installer . I've yet to meet a business owner who asked me to take a little longer doing something because he didn't like the way it looked ?


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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

sbrn33 said:


> You will never be able to work for me. If you don't understand the difference now you never will.


I have a feeling you like to cut all the pipes off even so the couplings line up too?

You have to remember one thing though, it only looks good to other electricians. Customers don't give a $hit if the couplings line up or if you use factory bends.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

EBFD6 said:


> It's only electrical work. If your self worth is determined by whether you used factory sweeps or bent them yourself, you should seek professional help. Who cares? Install the conduit, pull the wire, get paid. You aren't painting the Mona Lisa.


I couldn't have said it better. The more I read on these forums, the more I think most electricians are completely nuts.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Cow said:


> I have a feeling you like to cut all the pipes off even so the couplings line up too?
> 
> You have to remember one thing though, it only looks good to other electricians. Customers don't give a $hit if the couplings line up or if you use factory bends.


Why would you not line up your couplings? You're talking about minutes. Good work really doesn't take any longer.


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

sbrn33 said:


> *Why would you not line up your couplings? You're talking about minutes. *Good work really doesn't take any longer.



But can that be done without having to cut ends to line them up? Or otherwise waste material to ensure they line up? 

You are right, in most cases good work doesn't take any longer...but based on the conduit work I have done (none over 1.5" though) The simple physical layout of most jobs would make lining up couplings impossible without trimming sticks of conduit...a waste of time and material.


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## zen (Jun 15, 2009)

Just me personally I do like work that is as good as it looks but thats only because it looks as good as it works. I love electrical work sometimes too much but when it comes to installation methods I believe that first I must be code compliant and able to feed my family and when I get that rare customer who says spare no expense then I go into goverment worker mode and run ridged pipe for everything. 

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## glen1971 (Oct 10, 2012)

sbrn33 said:


> Why would you not line up your couplings? You're talking about minutes. Good work really doesn't take any longer.


Especially if you are using factory 90s... Then the deduction should be an easy number... Once they are lined up, the next 90 or fitting would be an easy measurement and multiple cuts the same length.. True enough that only other electricians will notice, but to me it is a pride in workmanship thing...

A buddy and I did a rack on a job and it looked pretty good.. We took some pics of it, then they realized they missed a conduit on the conduit schedule, so they had to add one.. We still had all our sheets with lengths, take-ups, etc for it and already had it laid out.. They gave it to another guy and he ran it in the 1 5/8" space that we had between 2 conduits and didn't match anything.. It made the whole rack look like a$$... Did it work - yes..


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

ponyboy said:


> Large aluminum feeders should be outlawed


Why is that? 

Have you installed AL feeders that failed? 

What does the PoCo use?


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

hardworkingstiff said:


> Why is that? Have you installed AL feeders that failed? What does the PoCo use?


Just trolling. I've never actually used aluminum feeders for anything


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

mxslick said:


> But can that be done without having to cut ends to line them up? Or otherwise waste material to ensure they line up? You are right, in most cases good work doesn't take any longer...but based on the conduit work I have done (none over 1.5" though) The simple physical layout of most jobs would make lining up couplings impossible without trimming sticks of conduit...a waste of time and material.


Lining up couplings on racks is common sense. If you have 10 different pipes on a rack why would you want to move your ladder or lift 3 times to put all the couplings on? And when it comes time for a bend all your measurements are the same. No brainer


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

I really like bending pipe if I have a choice. I can usually cut way down on hangers and have much, much less inventory to manage.


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## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

Why don't you throw up some cable tray and pull some Teck? Think you guys call it MC-HL down there. You could even do a single conductor installation and have smaller/fewer conductors.

We pull large armoured cables all the time.


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