# CONCEPT OF AN ENERGY DIVIDER CONTROLLER FOR 30A, 40A and 50A CIRCUIT BREAKERS (FEEDING 24A, 32A and 40A LOADS)



## Energy Divider Controller (8 mo ago)

Revised system: Need comments concerning compliance with the Canadian Electrical Code. Thank you.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Dryer is only 30 amp circuit. Wouldn’t the range be a better choice?


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## Energy Divider Controller (8 mo ago)

backstay said:


> Dryer is only 30 amp circuit. Wouldn’t the range be a better choice?


It could be also a range (with unbalanced L1 & L2) we sense both wires' current.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

I would suggest using a 2 pole relay. 

Also, as noted, the dryer circuit is 30 amps, you'd need to be able to set the EV charger to not more than 24 amps continuous. 

It would be a code violation to use a 50 amp breaker for the dryer receptacle, it cannot be more than 30.


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## BleedingLungsMurphy (10 mo ago)

Seems like an impractical solution. Why would you only want to manage the drier circuit? How much does _electronic circuit _cost to assemble? How long does it take? You can already buy load controllers for EVSE.

https://www.gescan.com/products/23-solar-products/03-off-grid/03-charge-controllers/p-RENURENDOTUwQQ==-recharge-vehicule-electrique-dcc-9-50a-charge-controller-1-phase-120240---208-v-50-a-input-125-a-load


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Congratulations, the good news is, you've invented rudimentary load shedding, the bad news is, someone else invented it long before you did.


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

You can do the same thing with an Allen Bradley Instantaneous Trip Current Relay and a two pole contactor. 

For some reason I'm always coming up with an industrial solution using 1970's technology


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## BillyMac59 (Sep 12, 2019)

I admire your initiative for the design. In some ways it makes sense. The dryer is infrequently used and the dedicated circuit could be used elsewhere. As others have noted, you have re-invented the wheel. Load - shedding and/or transfer switches accomplish the same thing. Will the 30A dryer circuit supply all the power required by the charger. Either a pont panel near the charging area or a dedicated circuit from the existing panel seems more practicable.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

ValeoBill said:


> I admire your initiative for the design. In some ways it makes sense. The dryer is infrequently used and the dedicated circuit could be used elsewhere. As others have noted, you have re-invented the wheel. Load - shedding and/or transfer switches accomplish the same thing. Will the 30A dryer circuit supply all the power required by the charger. Either a pont panel near the charging area or a dedicated circuit from the existing panel seems more practicable.


i have seen the clothes dryers of large families run about half a day 7 days a week
granted that is not the norm


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## SWDweller (Dec 9, 2020)

My ex brother in law had 2 washers and 3 dryers in is home. The wife said it took to long to do the laundry with only one machine each.


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

As said, not a new idea. But if you think you can grab a share of that market, go for it.

It needs to be code compliant, and the BIG one is 2-024... You have to have it tested by a NRTL.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

You can do the same thing with a simple current switch and a 2 pole relay.


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

micromind said:


> You can do the same thing with a simple current switch and a 2 pole relay.


Can we use these please?
























Remember, why buy ready made for $100 when you can build it for $500?


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Why not use a simple double pole, double throw, center off manual switch? That would be really old technology.


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

This is just a way around a service upgrade?


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## CraziFuzzy (Jul 10, 2019)

Am i the only one seemingly missing a description of what, specifically, this is trying to solve?


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## BleedingLungsMurphy (10 mo ago)

yankeejoe1141 said:


> This is just a way around a service upgrade?


Yes. 



CraziFuzzy said:


> what, specifically, this is trying to solve?


Using a load controller reduces the service demand for EV chargers. The charger will only run when enough capacity is available.


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## CraziFuzzy (Jul 10, 2019)

I would not be turning the EVSE on and off like that. I would use an EVSE that can be controlled to limit it's max current setting on the fly. Pretty sure OpenEVSE had this capability. You need a single CT on each phase, with the feeder and the EVSE running through it together (and in opposite directions). This will measure the total current of the house minus the EVSE current. Your controller can set the EVSE to your desired limit minus the measured current (using the worst case number between the two phases). The EVSE will then tell the vehicle that it can't draw more than that amount, so it won't overload your feeder.


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## BleedingLungsMurphy (10 mo ago)

CraziFuzzy said:


> I'm would not be turning the EVSE on and off like that....The EVSE will then tell the vehicle that it can't draw more than that amount, so it won't overload your feeder


Why not? It won't damage anything. Is open EVSE code compliant? A quick google search says it's arduino based. I wouldn't even try to sell that to a customer.


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## CraziFuzzy (Jul 10, 2019)

Are you trying to sell something?


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

CraziFuzzy said:


> I would not be turning the EVSE on and off like that. I would use an EVSE that can be controlled to limit it's max current setting on the fly. Pretty sure OpenEVSE had this capability. You need a single CT on each phase, with the feeder and the EVSE running through it together (and in opposite directions). This will measure the total current of the house minus the EVSE current. Your controller can set the EVSE to your desired limit minus the measured current (using the worst case number between the two phases). The EVSE will then tell the vehicle that it can't draw more than that amount, so it won't overload your feeder.


Way overcomplicated. You only need to measure the house loads. A simple iron core CT connected to a Carlos Gavazzi (cheap), Crompton, Palladian, or Metasol current relay handles the electronics for your output signal. There are other ways that use an “open” CT like a Shark 100 power meter. An easy way to cut down on charging is switch between 240 and a neutral, cutting the diode bridge inout voltage in half, which those chargers then back off on the power/current. Perhaps say a 50:1 CT with one of those relays makes a very simple system. You could build a custom microcontroller and use that higher priced charger but you blow up the budget by the time you “save money”.


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## BleedingLungsMurphy (10 mo ago)

CraziFuzzy said:


> Are you trying to sell something?


Absolutely. I'm an electrical contractor in Alberta. Wholesalers already have all kinds of "smart" load controllers that are tested and approved.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

BleedingLungsMurphy said:


> Why not? It won't damage anything. Is open EVSE code compliant? *A quick google search says it's arduino based. I wouldn't even try to sell that to a customer.*


I agree, Arduino is a great platform for it's intended purpose - education - but it's not great for production. In the tech world everyone's gone Shark Tank, they want to take their science fair project straight to market, skipping the steps between prototype and production. In the startup world, "fake it till you make it" is now considered a solid business practice  Solar and EV are particularly popular with this crowd.


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

splatz said:


> I agree, Arduino is a great platform for it's intended purpose - education - but it's not great for production. In the tech world everyone's gone Shark Tank, they want to take their science fair project straight to market, skipping the steps between prototype and production. In the startup world, "fake it till you make it" is now considered a solid business practice  Solar and EV are particularly popular with this crowd.


Embedded systems have been around arguably since the first computers where you built a system from scratch down to the “CPU”. In college I wrote the software and developed the hardware for an online tool that measured the stress/strain curve of a fluid in about a minute or two. Viscosity is a variable with many fluids such as polymers and slurries. Any time you start down the path of signal processing although it’s possible to do it in a PLC we’re getting into square peg/round hole territory. It’s just not a good fit. This is the realm of embedded systems. But the guys doing it are few and far between and there are many challenges to doing it. I mean can you start with a tiny blank “PC” without even an operating system and a couple boxes of component level electronic parts and produce a sophisticated working system in a couple days?

Arduino largely moves us from either a very simple OS or no OS and C and the need to be a hardware interface expert to something where that is all done for you,like a PLC.

Another plus for Arduino is that even if you have the hardware engineering expertise, let’s face it embedded systems are a pretty small market. As an example one I worked on a couple years ago involved making tires. They wrap the rubber around a mandrel. Controlling the overlap where the rubber wraps around over itself is a critical aspect of making a tire and there is no commercial tool to measure this. Vision systems can’t easily see it since you are measuring a “bump” that is easier to feel than see. There are also tons of issues with doing it. This is a classic embedded system problem. But honestly how many multimillion dollar tire machines are out there that can produce 1-2 tires per minute? That’s not a market for thousands of units of product. At most you might make a couple dozen.

Where things fall down is on the electronics side. A chip with a TTL level inout has a dozen transistors hiding on the other side of that pin. It is a very simple and robust board level system. The moment we step off into industrial/commercial/residential systems though we leave the world where “high voltage” might mean 12 V snd where zapping a $1 chip means pulling one out of a socket and putting another one in. Signal conditioning and protection come into play. These things are done for you in industrial controls. Again it seems very simple…we are just wiring up controls. The fact that input and output protection exists is the reason it seems simple. But we are taught the “simple” view in school and it is easy to overlook the real world. This is where we go from “science fair” to “real world”.

And then there’s the Listing hurdle. This stops the “science fair” stuff dead in its tracks. You will spend about $20k trying to get a product Listed. If you don’t have it together you will spend countless more money until you get it right. This is our blockade against “junk” products.

Automation Direct sells a PLC with Arduino. You can buy industrial grade hardware and program it in C++, “blocks” (arguably the modern incarnation of BASIC), or even ladder logic. So you can easily make that typical embedded system with industrial grade hardware, the best of both worlds. Plus since it’s already Listed you cross to the finish line very quickly if you stay away from “science fair” stuff. Most embedded systems would never pass inspection and must have a pretty bad reputation for reliability.

In a way we’ve lowered the barrier to entry into embedded systems too low. We are back to the Apple 2 days where you could pop the lid without tools and start hardware hacking your PC.


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

I know this is CEC forum but if we're talking NEC... wouldn't this product violate 625.40 that says an EV outlet has to be feed by an individual branch circuit?


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## BleedingLungsMurphy (10 mo ago)

yankeejoe1141 said:


> has to be feed by an individual branch circuit?


If a load controller can switch a circuit to only feed the EV, is it an individual circuit while it's operating? If it's physically impossible for that circuit to feed more than one device at any time, is it individual or shared?


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

Geez, if only the load shedder had already been invented ... we'd already have all these answers


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

BleedingLungsMurphy said:


> If a load controller can switch a circuit to only feed the EV, is it an individual circuit while it's operating? If it's physically impossible for that circuit to feed more than one device at any time, is it individual or shared?


I think the branch circuit would still be feeding two outlets, his contraption decides only one at a time… but the one branch circuit serves two different outlets. If you had to put a label identifying the source of power on each outlet they would be the same label.


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

emtnut said:


> Geez, if only the load shedder had already been invented ... we'd already have all these answers


Hang tight…I think the OP is working on it.


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## BleedingLungsMurphy (10 mo ago)

Energy Divider Controller said:


> Need comments concerning compliance with the Canadian Electrical Code


It's definitely possible. These are $1500 online at Gescan. You might be able to do it cheaper with approved parts, but it will take a lot longer.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

BleedingLungsMurphy said:


> It's definitely possible. These are $1500 online at Gescan. You might be able to do it cheaper with approved parts, but it will take a lot longer.
> View attachment 165782


Any idea of price for that bad boy? I didn't feel like signing up with the company just to find out about pricing.


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

BleedingLungsMurphy said:


> It's definitely possible. These are $1500 online at Gescan. You might be able to do it cheaper with approved parts, but it will take a lot longer.
> View attachment 165782


I don't think this is exactly what the OP is trying to do, he wants to take the existing range circuit and feed two outlets, the range and the EV. It looks like the device you posted will still be a dedicated circuit that will kill the load if the main breaker sees too much current draw.


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## Signal1 (Feb 10, 2016)

Imma gonna wow these dumb electricians with my amazing new idea............................................


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

yankeejoe1141 said:


> I know this is CEC forum but if we're talking NEC... wouldn't this product violate 625.40 that says an EV outlet has to be feed by an individual branch circuit?


A CT is not a CCC: Plus a branch must be connected to a load. Technically the charger is power conversion like a transformer but that’s a technicality: So the wiring to this device is a feeder.

Realistically the loads you are looking to load share with are scattered l. The easiest install would be a CT on the service entrance cables: then the combination of loads doesn’t matter and you don’t have a bunch of sensors scattered everywhere.

I just don’t see any benefit. Residential metering doesn’t include a demand charge so load shedding for that is pointless. At best you could be trying to manage a service size but that just means being faster than the breaker/fuse and again, throttling is kind of pointless. It’s just as expensive as upgrading the service. And load shedding based on peak/off peak utility charges would be based on a time of day, not load.


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

yankeejoe1141 said:


> I think the branch circuit would still be feeding two outlets, his contraption decides only one at a time… but the one branch circuit serves two different outlets. If you had to put a label identifying the source of power on each outlet they would be the same label.


If I switched between 240 V and 120 V by dropping a leg is that one or two circuits? It’s one.


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## BleedingLungsMurphy (10 mo ago)

macmikeman said:


> Any idea of price for that bad boy?


You can view pricing without an account https://www.gescan.com/search/ev...


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## CraziFuzzy (Jul 10, 2019)

paulengr said:


> Way overcomplicated. You only need to measure the house loads. A simple iron core CT connected to a Carlos Gavazzi (cheap), Crompton, Palladian, or Metasol current relay handles the electronics for your output signal. There are other ways that use an “open” CT like a Shark 100 power meter. An easy way to cut down on charging is switch between 240 and a neutral, cutting the diode bridge inout voltage in half, which those chargers then back off on the power/current. Perhaps say a 50:1 CT with one of those relays makes a very simple system. You could build a custom microcontroller and use that higher priced charger but you blow up the budget by the time you “save money”.


Y'all really missed the points of my post, that point being that EV charging is a variable and infinitely controllable load, something where on/off control is crude and less user friendly than simply changing a parameter in the EVSE.


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## CraziFuzzy (Jul 10, 2019)

paulengr said:


> A CT is not a CCC: Plus a branch must be connected to a load. Technically the charger is power conversion like a transformer but that’s a technicality: So the wiring to this device is a feeder.
> 
> Realistically the loads you are looking to load share with are scattered l. The easiest install would be a CT on the service entrance cables: then the combination of loads doesn’t matter and you don’t have a bunch of sensors scattered everywhere.
> 
> I just don’t see any benefit. Residential metering doesn’t include a demand charge so load shedding for that is pointless. At best you could be trying to manage a service size but that just means being faster than the breaker/fuse and again, throttling is kind of pointless. It’s just as expensive as upgrading the service. And load shedding based on peak/off peak utility charges would be based on a time of day, not load.


"Throttling" an EV's charging rate is simple, if you have an EVSE that is easily controlled.


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## BleedingLungsMurphy (10 mo ago)

CraziFuzzy said:


> Y'all really missed the points of my post, that point being that EV charging is a variable and infinitely controllable load





> "Throttling" an EV's charging rate is simple, if you have an EVSE that is easily controlled.


That may be true, but it's still irrelevant when doing a service load calculation. A dedicated load controller allows you to install higher capacity EVSE on an existing service.


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## CraziFuzzy (Jul 10, 2019)

BleedingLungsMurphy said:


> That may be true, but it's still irrelevant when doing a service load calculation. A dedicated load controller allows you to install higher capacity EVSE on an existing service.


So does setting the current on the evse to what the service can provide.


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## BleedingLungsMurphy (10 mo ago)

CraziFuzzy said:


> So does setting the current on the evse to what the service can provide.


Okay. The garage/shop sub panel is near capacity. The EVSE on the lowest setting will require a bigger sub panel, this will require a full service upgrade.

I can do a service upgrade, new panel, run a cable to the garage, install a new panel...... _*or*_ I can install a load controller on the panel feeding the EVSE

Wait until we have to start installing 2 or 3 or 4 EV chargers at one house when the whole family has an EV. It's just an option to consider. A service upgrade will always be my first recommendation.


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

BleedingLungsMurphy said:


> Okay. The garage/shop sub panel is near capacity. The EVSE on the lowest setting will require a bigger sub panel, this will require a full service upgrade.
> 
> I can do a service upgrade, new panel, run a cable to the garage, install a new panel...... _*or*_ I can install a load controller on the panel feeding the EVSE
> 
> ...


Wow, I never considered multiple EV chargers until you just said it...one day 200amp services may not be enough and considered small.


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## CraziFuzzy (Jul 10, 2019)

'minimum setting' on a quality EVSE is incredibly small, likely 12A to run in a 15A circuit. On a fully configurable one like i mentioned already, it would probably go even lower. Additionally, there are a number of EVSE's that can work together with others to share available capacity. This is very common at apartment complexes or existing parking facilities. If only one is connected, it would have the full capacity available, but as more cars are connected to the combined network, they will adjust each pulse-width signal as necessary to keep the total load less than the programmed availability. This isn't just dividing the max by the number and setting all to that number, it will detect the reduction in rate from each vehicle as they start to fill up and return that availability to the pool.
Remember, a level 1 or 2 EVSE itself does nothing to the AC other than disconnect or connect it once safety checks are done and passed. All it does is send a pulse width signal to the vehicle to tell the charger (which is in the car) how much current it is allowed to draw. The vehicle's charger will use up to the limit of either its own charger capacity, the max rate the battery can take, or the max the EVSE says it has available, whichever is less.


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## CraziFuzzy (Jul 10, 2019)

yankeejoe1141 said:


> Wow, I never considered multiple EV chargers until you just said it...one day 200amp services may not be enough and considered small.


If you've ever lived long term with an ev, you realize that you almost never need a very rapid charging rate at home. Hell, i spent three years with a fiat 500e and never bothered to use more than 12A @ 240V (the factory supplied level-1 evse).


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## BleedingLungsMurphy (10 mo ago)

CraziFuzzy said:


> 'minimum setting' on a quality EVSE is incredibly small, likely 12A to run in a 15A circuit. On a fully configurable one like i mentioned already, it would probably go even lower.


Yes, I don't think anyone is disputing this fact.


> If you've ever lived long term with an ev, you realize that you almost never need a very rapid charging rate at home. Hell, i spent three years with a fiat 500e and never bothered to use more than 12A @ 240V (the factory supplied level-1 evse).


I wouldn't buy an EV. Next time a customer with a new tesla asks for a rapid charger, I'll just show them a screen shot of your comment.


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## CraziFuzzy (Jul 10, 2019)

Well, sounds like you're definitely the expert on the matter. Why are you in this thread again?


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## BleedingLungsMurphy (10 mo ago)

CraziFuzzy said:


> Well, sounds like you're definitely the expert on the matter.


If you say so. 


> Why are you in this thread again?


Trying to have a discussion about load controllers, you know, the thing OP is trying to design.


> *CONCEPT OF AN ENERGY DIVIDER CONTROLLER FOR 30A, 40A and 50A CIRCUIT BREAKERS (FEEDING 24A, 32A and 40A LOADS)*


I don't see anything about 15 amp circuits, so, why are you here?


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## BleedingLungsMurphy (10 mo ago)

CraziFuzzy said:


> you're definitely the expert on the matter


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

BleedingLungsMurphy said:


> View attachment 165879


Your code looks like it’s easier to read and understand than ours lol.


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