# unionize!



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

electricalperson said:


> the company i work for is very anti union for reasons unknown to me.


Maybe the fact they loose a lot of control over what they can and can not do. Maybe the fact that many business owners worked very hard to build a successful business and they resent the thought they may be forced to run it ways they do not want to?




> i had a discussion with somebody there and they said its bad for both the employer and employees



I am not a union fan but I can not think of a big reason why it would be bad for the employees. That sounds like anti-union propaganda to me.



> no union bashing or anything just facts


 :laughing::laughing::laughing:

Yeah, that will happen. :laughing:



> according to the ibew website theres about 750,000 union members in america. 750,000 men and women cant be wrong im assuming


I am not sure what that proves one way or the other, there are certainly more then that outside the union. 

You strike me as a guy that would do well in the union. You want the pleasure of wrapping burndys no matter how much longer it takes and no matter better products are available. :thumbup:


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## electricalperson (Jan 11, 2008)

Bob Badger said:


> You strike me as a guy that would do well in the union. You want the pleasure of wrapping burndys no matter how much longer it takes and no matter better products are available. :thumbup:


 im the guy that wants to do quality work, take my time and not be forced to cut corners to save a few dollars. union or not

i want to do my trade the way i was taught


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## augie47 (May 4, 2009)

electricalperson said:


> i want to do my trade the way i was taught


 
you might want to study your decision a bit longer then


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## electricalperson (Jan 11, 2008)

augie47 said:


> you might want to study your decision a bit longer then


 why?


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

You want the pleasure of wrapping burndys no matter how much longer it takes and no matter better products are available. :thumbup:[/quote said:


> What are you talking about? It is up to the employer if you use burndys or other methods, not the union.:001_huh:


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

Union down here gets undercut all the time, they just can't get a good foothold down here like they can the northern cities. Both companies I've worked for used to be Union then quit.

A guy I work with "is Union", but apparently his company just don't have enough work, small stuff here and there. Doesn't matter how much more they pay you if they can't keep you working.

Maybe when I settle down somewhere I'll join the Union, but not now, not yet.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

drsparky said:


> What are you talking about? It is up to the employer if you use burndys or other methods, not the union.:001_huh:


I just remember that electricalperson has a preferences for the pleasures of wrapping tape around a burndy.


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## electricalperson (Jan 11, 2008)

Bob Badger said:


> I just remember that electricalperson has a preferences for the pleasures of wrapping tape around a burndy.


 if we ever work together would you slap the burndy out of my hand and fire me? you seem like you hate those things:laughing:


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

electricalperson said:


> I'm the guy that wants to do quality work, take my time and not be forced to cut corners to save a few dollars. union or not


To me it is not _my_ money to spend, I am not an artist I was not given a commission to do my wiring. If the customer wants a Kia I have no problem supplying it, if they want a Bentley I can do that as well. 

Work however makes you happy and keeps you employed, that is of course everyones right to do. 

You and I will never agree about the nature of the work we do. :no:


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## electricalperson (Jan 11, 2008)

Bob Badger said:


> To me it is not _my_ money to spend, I am not an artist I was not given a commission to do my wiring. If the customer wants a Kia I have no problem supplying it, if they want a Bentley I can do that as well.
> 
> Work however makes you happy and keeps you employed, that is of course everyones right to do.
> 
> You and I will never agree about the nature of the work we do. :no:


 im sure ill agree with you on a lot of things if we worked together. i respect you and know you know a lot more than i do :thumbsup:


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

Bob Badger said:


> To me it is not _my_ money to spend, I am not an artist I was not given a commission to do my wiring. If the customer wants a Kia I have no problem supplying it, if they want a Bentley I can do that as well.
> 
> Work however makes you happy and keeps you employed, that is of course everyones right to do.
> 
> You and I will never agree about the nature of the work we do. :no:


Hey now!

Kias are quality affordable cars.

Lets call it a GM instead!


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Frasbee said:


> Hey now!
> 
> Kias are quality affordable cars.
> 
> Lets call it a GM instead!


LOL. :laughing:

I was having a harder time with the high end car, it used to be you would say 'Thats a Cadillac" and that would mean the best money could buy ........ it been a long time since then.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

electricalperson said:


> im sure ill agree with you on a lot of things if we worked together. i respect you and know you know a lot more than i do :thumbsup:




Well thanks but I am just another working stiff wishing I could do this trade as a hobby when and where I want.


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## Lone Crapshooter (Nov 8, 2008)

I have been bared from the IBEW in my area because I have no realitives in the local. After hearing them talk the only difference between a union electrician and a non-signitured is that the union electrician payes dues.
The IBEW has brain washed it's members into thinking that they are the only ones than can do electrical work. that is just not so. 
The way I see it is that if I am not good enough to be one of them I would not employee any of them.
The all want to tell you how good it is to be a union electrician but when was the last time one of them invited a qualified non-signitured electrician to join their with no conditions attached like being a salt.
It might be a better organization if a contractor sponsered a individual rather than a apprenticeship committee selected a individual . You go to work for a contractor then join the you are sponsered in apprenticeship by that contractor.
That would work for a green apprentice . 
For a experienced electrician the union would give the contractors permissiom to hire off the street a individual goes to work and if they make it then after a probationary period he can join the union.
There would have to be some kind of tracking system to make sure that the individuals are not being abused by the contractors and the individuals are capeable of doing the work.
LC


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## westernexplorer (Jun 20, 2009)

The anti-union propaganda is getting deep....
I have yet to see a Union rep or B.A. walk onto a jobsite and tell an electrician how to bend a stick of conduit, or wrap a splice. I have however, seen them tell an employer to pay the men the wage they are suppose to be paid and I have seen a union rep force an employer to re-hire an employee who was wrongfully fired, in violation of the law......

Thats what this comes down to, most employers do not respect the labor laws or the laws of our nation, when it comes to employee's pay, safety standards or training. And when someone, who is not under there thumb calls them on it, they don't like it......

Just like contractors who work people on Davis-Bacon Jobs and don't tell the employee, he is entiled to the full wages under the law. The non-union contractors continue to pay the employee there normal wage and pocket the rest of the money that is suppose to go the employee......But its the unions fault or the GOVERNMENTS fault because the contractor choose to break the law. I can understand why a non-union contractor doesn't want someone looking over his shoulder......

electricalperson, bottom line is, if all employers treated there employee's fairly and followed the law, unions would not exist...........The more the Republician Contractors try and weaken the labor laws and employee protections, they fan the flames of the labor movement......


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## Minuteman (Dec 29, 2007)

To many members, you be will view upon as an outsider, You didn't go through "the program" so, you are not a real brother. If you should join, many will say that you bought your ticket. Some may even accuse you of taking a brothers job, should the books start getting a of of names on it. 
Oh, and yes, there will be many that will cast dispersions upon you training and or methods.

You will have to learn how to work slower, how to whine about conditions, and most importantly - that you NEVER GO BACK TO WORK from break BEFORE THE STEWARD DOES! :no:


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## John (Jan 22, 2007)

electricalperson said:


> i am thinking of applying at the local union around here. i wouldnt mind the experience under my belt.
> 
> the company i work for is very anti union for reasons unknown to me. i had a discussion with somebody there and they said its bad for both the employer and employees
> 
> ...


Don't join the union just for the sake of being "union". Join if you think that it is to your advantage, in that you will learn more job skills, acquire more experience, be able to do types of electrical work that you presently don't have the opportunity to do,...........
Do it if there is something in it for you, if not don't.

Number of electricians that are not.:whistling2:

View attachment 1506


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

electricalperson said:


> according to the ibew website theres about 750,000 union members in america. 750,000 men and women cant be wrong im assuming


Yeah, just ask Hitler's army...


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## gilbequick (Oct 6, 2007)

InPhase277 said:


> Yeah, just ask Hitler's army...


Ohh come on that's ridiculous. Depending on where you live the union could be a big plus or not much of a benefit at all. Compare union vs nonunion wages and benefits, and work. Much of this will not come down to union vs nonunion but more of a company vs company issue. If you go union and get on with a crappy company you can't blame it on the union. If you go nonunion and get on with a crappy company you can't blame it on it being account of not being union. 

Bottom line, IMO, is compare training, wages, and who is steadily working.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

westernexplorer said:


> The anti-union propaganda is getting deep....
> 
> Thats what this comes down to, most employers do not respect the labor laws or the laws of our nation, when it comes to employee's pay, safety standards or training. And when someone, who is not under there thumb calls them on it, they don't like it......


Would it be wrong of me to say YOU ARE FULL OF SH*T?



> Just like contractors who work people on Davis-Bacon Jobs and don't tell the employee, he is entiled to the full wages under the law. The non-union contractors continue to pay the employee there normal wage and pocket the rest of the money that is suppose to go the employee......But its the unions fault or the GOVERNMENTS fault because the contractor choose to break the law. I can understand why a non-union contractor doesn't want someone looking over his shoulder......


On Davis Bacon jobs contractors get audited and if they are not paying prevailing wages they are fined and FORCED TO PAY THE AGREED UPON WAGE. So once again you are WRONG.





> electricalperson, bottom line is, if all employers treated there employee's fairly and followed the law, unions would not exist...........The more the Republician Contractors try and weaken the labor laws and employee protections, they fan the flames of the labor movement......


Did I say you are full of SH*T?

Not to fan the flames


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## westernexplorer (Jun 20, 2009)

Brian John, 

You are the one who is so full of sh*t it is running out of your ears.....LOL.

I suppose because something is not happening under the watchful eyes of an expert like you, then it's not happening......keep trying to sell some more of that Right wing propaganda about how employers in America love and enjoy complying with the labor laws....LOL.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

westernexplorer said:


> Brian John,
> 
> You are the one who is so full of sh*t it is running out of your ears.....LOL.
> 
> I suppose because something is not happening under the watchful eyes of an expert like you, then it's not happening......keep trying to sell some more of that Right wing propaganda about how employers in America love and enjoy complying with the labor laws....LOL.


I did not say that, I said if they are caught violating Davis Bacon they will be fined and have to make back pay.

Do you disagree with that?

You said MOST employers, that is a bald face lie SOME YES most NO.

A blanket statement like yours is no different than someone saying all union electricians are slackers. NOT TRUE are some yes, are all HECK NO.


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## westernexplorer (Jun 20, 2009)

Brian John,

Calling me a liar, is what is a bald face lie.

I will agree that when employer's are caught violating Davis-Bacon labor provisions that they are fined and sanctioned. However, many are not caught, just as speeder's on our highways. How many times have you driven passed the speed limit and not gotten a ticket, does that mean you don't speed...?

I stand by what I said, about most employers not respecting labor laws in America. They see them as REGULATION, which hamper business activities, just as they are suppose to. Not everything in America is about what's good for business. Many business organizations supported Child labor until the great depression, not because it was good for America, but good for there bottom line. 

If you want to have an honest discussion about union's, lets do that. Calling me a liar, however is not true........you know better than that.


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## acmax (Apr 20, 2009)

In areas of the country that fight hard to keep out the unions ( the south) wages are 15 to 20 % less for almost any given trade. Why is that?
Also take note that it is very hard to competitively bid against non union companies for most that I have witnessed on the job sites have very poorly trained personal, using temp agencies and day labor to fill the work load.
now this is just what I've seen , and I am not nor every have belonged to a union. There are plenty of good companies that operate at a high standard , but at any given moment are capable of practicing low ball tactics to bring in the bottom line.And having owned a business I know that good employees are worth everything to keep, but in today's type of 
business models the $$ talks and nobody is that great.


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## jbberns (Jan 14, 2009)

Lone Crapshooter said:


> I have been bared from the IBEW in my area because I have no realitives in the local. After hearing them talk the only difference between a union electrician and a non-signitured is that the union electrician payes dues.


Funny, I'm in the IBEW and don't have any relatives in. 
He makes a good point though. There Union Crybabies and Non Union Crybabies!


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

jbberns said:


> Funny, I'm in the IBEW and don't have any relatives in.
> He makes a good point though. There Union Crybabies and Non Union Crybabies!


Same here, no friends, no relatives, had to find it on a map to put my application in.:thumbsup:


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## westernexplorer (Jun 20, 2009)

Same here, I didn't know a soul in the IBEW when I got in.....


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

brian john said:


> On Davis Bacon jobs contractors get audited and if they are not paying prevailing wages they are fined and FORCED TO PAY THE AGREED UPON WAGE. So once again you are WRONG.


Uh... I guess you never heard of double booking? Oh, and then there's that whole "You're getting this on the paycheck on Friday, better have $575.00 cash for me on Monday, Or you're not coming back to work..." thing that goes on.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Frasbee said:


> Union down here gets undercut all the time, they just can't get a good foothold down here like they can the northern cities. Both companies I've worked for used to be Union then quit.
> 
> A guy I work with "is Union", but apparently his company just don't have enough work, small stuff here and there. Doesn't matter how much more they pay you if they can't keep you working.
> 
> Maybe when I settle down somewhere I'll join the Union, but not now, not yet.


Anybody who works in the construction industry expecting to be employed 100% of the time is only kidding themselves. Construction work is by nature cyclical. If you take a job paying less based on a promise of steady work, you've been lied to, and you're cheating yourself out of better wages.

I'd rather work for 49.00 an hour for 1/2 a year than for 25.00 an hour 12 months a year.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

acmax said:


> In areas of the country that fight hard to keep out the unions ( the south) wages are 15 to 20 % less for almost any given trade. Why is that?
> A.


Because the cost of living is less. I can get twice the house in your state than I can get in Northern VA. for 1/2 the price. Taxes are lower as a percentage of income.

Move to NYC and make what you make, you might be forced to live in a box on the street, and an NYC electrician would live like a king on his NYC salary in your state.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

westernexplorer said:


> Brian John,
> 
> Calling me a liar, is what is a bald face lie.
> ....you know better than that.


OK you are not a liar, you know no better and are peddling the stuff you were fed.

The facts of life are in every field, trade, profession, walk of life, nationality, country and religion there are good and bad people. In my experience most people walk the straight line and er towards the good side. Until you can give me proof of anything different, I'll stand by my statement. For you to say most is BALONEY.


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## Minuteman (Dec 29, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Anybody who works in the construction industry expecting to be employed 100% of the time is only kidding themselves. Construction work is by nature cyclical. If you take a job paying less based on a promise of steady work, you've been lied to, and you're cheating yourself out of better wages.
> 
> I'd rather work for 49.00 an hour for 1/2 a year than for 25.00 an hour 12 months a year.



I make above scale, and work 12 months.
Most of them only get scale, and most of them work 12 months.

I keep what I make.
They pay dues.

I have employer supplied health care for myself.
They have Union supplied care for the whole family.

I get paid holidays, vacation, sick days.
They get what's on the check.

I get OT for over 40.
They get OT over 8.
I could go on and on, point is: it's subjective. It all depends on the part of this Once Great country that you live in and how well you market yourself. As it has been said, there is good and bad on both sides.


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## Lone Crapshooter (Nov 8, 2008)

The local in this area is one if the premier "country club "locals in the country. They have been sued over their apprenticeship selection process. In the 70's it was standard operating practice to have 10 openings and take 9 sons and one soon to be son-in-law.
But it was fair I know that because they said it was.


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## westernexplorer (Jun 20, 2009)

Lone,

You are right, it does still go on.......I would say less than the past, but never the less it still happens.

Brian John,

You really do think alot of yourself, your the authority on what goes on in this country.

Tell me this is not true, so I and the rest of the board can get a good laugh. Everytime the US Congress attempts to raise the minimum wage or pass a law making it easier for workers to organize into a union for better pay and conditions. The major objecters are the Business (UNIONS) like the Chamber of Commerce, US Manufacturers Association and every other Business union in the country. When workers band together to push for change its somehow seen as evil. However, when business's band together for there interest it's the American way.

Brian John, they had a name for people like you in the 1800's, it was called "Snake Oil Salesman".

I don't blame you though, you are just another brain washed victim of the corporate media and that includes FOX News, who twist everything with a coporate slant. If I see another story on TV about how we need more illegal mexican's and more indian's to teach us about computer programming, because America is short of skilled workers, I think I'm going to through-up.......


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## BDB (Jul 9, 2008)

Minuteman said:


> I make above scale, and work 12 months.
> Most of them only get scale, and most of them work 12 months.
> 
> 
> ...


This is the most accurate post on this topic I have seen.:thumbup:


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## westernexplorer (Jun 20, 2009)

Minuteman said:


> I make above scale, and work 12 months.
> Most of them only get scale, and most of them work 12 months.
> 
> I keep what I make.
> ...


 
Minuteman,

I agree that things are subjective. I know some non-union electrician's who are great electricians and earn top wages and benefits. Wouldn't agree though, that on average, union electricians are paid a higher wage & retirement, in general...?


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## Minuteman (Dec 29, 2007)

westernexplorer said:


> Lone,
> 
> You are right, it does still go on.......I would say less than the past, but never the less it still happens.
> 
> ...


Minimum wage??? :blink: Talk about Snake oil! Minimum wage is nothing but a Democrat ploy to buy the uneducated vote. Raising it will only raise inflation. It could never equate to a living wage.



westernexplorer said:


> Minuteman,
> 
> I agree that things are subjective. I know some non-union electrician's who are great electricians and earn top wages and benefits. Wouldn't agree though, that on average, union electricians are paid a higher wage & retirement, in general...?


On the average: True. I have said here before, that the main thing that I will miss from my stint will be my pension.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Uh... I guess you never heard of double booking? Oh, and then there's that whole "You're getting this on the paycheck on Friday, better have $575.00 cash for me on Monday, Or you're not coming back to work..." thing that goes on.


 
OF COURSE that happens, is it the NORM no, Do most contractors do this NO. BUT SOME people take one example and SWEAR it is the truth across the board. In that case they are liars, full of crap or ignorant of the truth.

Union men have a bad rep in open shops as lazy slackers, is this true NO! Are some union men lazy slackers you bet.

All open shop men have a reputation in the union as not knowing how to do quality electric work. Is this true NO, are some hacks? YES! sure they are.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

westernexplorer:

What you do not think about (based upon your post) is that increasing wages does NOTHING. Be it minimum wage or scale. EVERYTHING RISES to match it.


The point is not whether I knowm more than you (which there is little doubt I do just ask me), but that anytime you make such a blanket statement you show how small you are. Much in the vein of a bigot that makes blanket statements about minorities, gays or religion.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Minuteman said:


> I make above scale, and work 12 months.
> *This is not true for MOST nonunion electricians. Who's your daddy?*
> 
> Most of them only get scale, and most of them work 12 months.
> ...


*Most of the bad residing on the other side. :laughing:*


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> I'd rather work for 49.00 an hour for 1/2 a year than for 25.00 an hour 12 months a year.


Thats a great sound bite and if it was as simple as that anyone would agree. 

But it ain't that simple.:no:

When your off for that six months are you still paying dues? Subtract that from your 1000 hrs of $49. per hr.

When your off for that six months who pays your health care? Subtract that from your 1000 hrs of $49. per hr.

When your off for that six months do you still get money added to your retirement account? (I really do not know the answer to this one)

I am sure there are more examples if we stop to think about them.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

brian john said:


> OF COURSE that happens, is it the NORM no, Do most contractors do this NO. BUT SOME people take one example and SWEAR it is the truth across the board. In that case they are liars, full of crap or ignorant of the truth.
> 
> *Google "Labor Department contractor debarred list." *
> 
> ...


*There's a LOT more "ignorant" fueled by "powerlessness" on the nonunion side. From my experience there isn't ONE... not ONE person who calls themselves an electrician (or wants to) who does not WANT to do the BEST job possible... the stumbling block is always the cheap greedy or ill-prepared contractor who doesn't allow it. *

*Plenty of carpenter hacks, I've yet to meet a electrician hack. *


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> *There's a LOT more "ignorant" fueled by "powerlessness" on the nonunion side. From my experience there isn't ONE... not ONE person who calls themselves an electrician (or wants to) who does not WANT to do the BEST job possible... the stumbling block is always the cheap greedy or ill-prepared contractor who doesn't allow it. *


 
LGLS:

That is just not true I have seen plenty of hacks, lazy men and pure slobs in both fields that had the best of everything to work with. Just as contractors are not all the best workers are the same, some good, so OK and some lazy hacks.

*



Plenty of carpenter hacks, I've yet to meet a electrician hack.

Click to expand...

*I have seen their work in at least 15 states I have worked in or inspected work in (including NYC, OMG the piss poor quality work and attitudes I saw there rival any where I have worked). Carpenters are no different than electricians we do not have the hold on quality.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Thats a great sound bite and if it was as simple as that anyone would agree. 

But it ain't that simple.:no:

When your off for that six months are you still paying dues? Subtract that from your 1000 hrs of $49. per hr.

*OK. And then it's tax deductable, so may I add it back in?*

When your off for that six months who pays your health care? Subtract that from your 1000 hrs of $49. per hr.

*Health bennies continue for 6 months beyond any layoff... then you can pay them yourself. But at least we got them. The local knows suspending them wouldn't save much because you will be back after a layoff, and you'll bring any health issues right along with you. (Pay me now or pay me later.) *

When your off for that six months do you still get money added to your retirement account? (I really do not know the answer to this one)

*IF you have enough hours to earn the pension credit, you made it. At least we HAVE a pension, though I expect future negotiations will probably do away with the defined benifit plans. The Int'l manages 2 pensions for JW's, my local augments this with another 2, and then there's the 401k, which we control. ( www.ibenefitcenter.com ) *

*Currently, pensioners take home about $6500.00 a month, not including whatever their 401k provides, which is going to vary depending on degree of participation and the outcome of personal fund selections and payout options.*

I am sure there are more examples if we stop to think about them.


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## westernexplorer (Jun 20, 2009)

Originally Posted by *westernexplorer*  
_The 50/50 call back, use to be for every man taken off the books by the number, the contractors had the right to call someone out of order by name to work a job. It is wormy as hell, but the whole country has become pretty wormy in my view......:whistling2:_

Quote: Brian John 
Yeah So I can get two slackers (bench warmers) or a guy that I know is good and a bench warmer. Promoting a better work force. NOT. 
__________________
I void warranty's 


Brian John,

So are you implying by your quote above that anyone that comes from the hall that you can't HAND pick is a lazy slacker.....? Talk about blanket statements..... You need to start smelling that stuff you are shoveling. Your problem is that I have worked in the Union and Non-Union for many years and travelled and worked all over this country from California to New Jersey. Your snake oil pitch, doesn't work on me......LOL. 

You still have not addressed the real issues, you continue to duck and dodge. I want to here you say, that a MAJORITY, which means MOST, for slow people like you. That Employers in America support and enjoy complying with all the labor laws, like overtime pay, family medical leave, workers compensation, unemployement insurance and the like and wouldn't overeturn anyone of those laws if given the chance...... Say it with a straight face.....

Be careful when you open your mouth, so as not to insert your foot............LOL.


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

LGLS, 
Could you please do me a favor and pay just the interest on my house. It's around $6000 a year and it's 100% tax deductible. Thanks.

Explorer, 
You need to remember there is a big difference between a contractor and an employee. Contractors took a huge financial leap and went into business. Employees just want to show up. Of course, contractors want to get the most value for their employees. Contractors will pay top dollar to guys who make them top dollar. The guys that don't cut it, will not get raises just because its June 1st. It is the American way to have different pay scales for different people. Employees will only get paid what they think their worth. If they are getting underpaid or treated like crap (by the examples you stated above), then they should move on.


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## westernexplorer (Jun 20, 2009)

Knowshorts,
I don't disagree with what you have said. I agree that we should reward work. I also, understand the difference between an employer and an employee. I don't even blame employers for fighting for there positions or what they believe in. However, alot of employer's want it to be one-sided. It's ok for them to ban together, just not the workers. Would you say that is not true....? Would you say that most employers, if given the chance would over turn many labor laws in America...?


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

westernexplorer said:


> However, alot of employer's want it to be one-sided. It's ok for them to ban together, just not the workers. Would you say that is not true....?


And a lot of employees want it to be one-sided.



westernexplorer said:


> Would you say that most employers, if given the chance would over turn many labor laws in America...?


I would disagree. What labor laws are you referring to? I would say most employers were labor at one time, too. The only time I have really heard of employers try to change labor laws, is when CA went to a 40 hour work week before overtime, rather than after 8 hours. Employers (even large corporations) don't want to dismantle labor laws, they just want their people to produce. If work was being done, without all the bitching and moaning that goes on by lazy, entitled, American workers, do you really think we would have lost millions of jobs to Mexico, India, China, etc? 

I have heard union guys making $70+ package bitch and complain because they find out their employer is billing out at $125 an hour. They have no idea the costs to run a business.


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## westernexplorer (Jun 20, 2009)

Quote: Knowshorts 
If work was being done, without all the bitching and moaning that goes on by lazy, entitled, American workers, do you really think we would have lost millions of jobs to Mexico, India, China, etc? 



You are comparing the Most industrialized nation on the earth to the Third World. We lost those jobs because of taking down the trade tariff's we had in place from the conception of the country......Yes we make more money than people in Mexico and India, we also live in better homes, drive better cars and have clean drinking water.

Now if you want to turn this country into the Third World, we can do that, in fact we are doing that, giving tax breaks to companies for moving overseas and continuing to shift the taxes from the rich onto the backs of the working people.......From 1933 to 1981 the rich people of this country paid between 68% to 89% tax on income over 200K earned in a year. We won a World War, Fought two other major conflicts, Korea and Vietnam, put a man on the moon, cured polio, built the interstate highway system coast to coast, ended CHILD LABOR and enacted MAJOR LABOR protections, like the Wagner Act. And Business's didn't leave the United States, would you like to know why.....? FEAR......of the communist's taking there factory's after they built them in another country AND trade tariff's when they tried to re-import the cheap labor goods...........

To hear guys like you tell it, we should eliminate all taxes on business and the wealthy and the roads will suddenly get paved, the police will hire more officers, the schools will have more money......Supply side economics didn't work not when Reagan, not when Bush, not when Clinton, not when Bush again or when Obama tries it....... Supply side economic's is a failure and it is destroying this country and our way of life.......


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## westernexplorer (Jun 20, 2009)

*Bush Administration Ignores Common Sense in Rolling Back Contractor Responsibility Standards*

*FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE* 
*CONTACT*: Reece Rushing, 202-234-8494 

April 4, 2001 

Say you are the government. You are considering two contractors, equal in every way except that one has repeatedly violated environmental laws. Common sense says you contract with the law-abiding company. But then, you wouldn’t be the Bush administration. 

On April 3, the administration published notice in the Federal Register announcing that it intends to suspend and eventually repeal a rule that promotes greater accountability for federal contractors – to make sure they comply with important public protections. Specifically, the rule instructs government contracting officers to look at a bidding company’s compliance with the law (including tax laws, labor laws, employment laws, environmental laws, antitrust laws and consumer protection laws) before awarding taxpayer dollars. 

Contracting officers need to take greater care in distributing federal dollars than they have in the past. According to the General Accounting Office, 80 firms that violated the National Labor Relations Act received more than $23 billion in contracts in Fiscal Year 1993. In FY 1994, $38 billion was awarded to 261 federal contractors that were cited by OSHA for 5,121 violations, many of which were both serious and willful. 

“A more careful examination of a prospective contractor's record and an up-front determination on compliance with the law would help ensure that taxpayer money is spent responsibly,” said Gary D. Bass, executive director of OMB Watch, as well as chairman of Citizens for Sensible Safeguards, a broad-based coalition of hundreds of public interest organizations. “It seems clear, however, that the administration is less concerned about its obligations to taxpayers – who the president claims to care so much about – and more concerned about the powerful corporate interests that made repeal of this rule a top priority. 

“Of course, this is not a complete surprise. Since his first day in office, President Bush has been waging war on health, safety, consumer, and environmental protections. From ergonomics standards and safe drinking water to medical privacy and global warming to drilling and mining on public lands, this president has made clear that he stands with corporate interests, no matter the price.” 

As for the contractor responsibility rule, which was completed at the end of the Clinton administration after years of work, the business lobby has dishonestly argued that it amounts to “blacklisting” – that companies could be barred from receiving federal contracts with no due process. 

“This argument is completely hollow,” Bass said. “It serves to distort the debate, because they know they can’t win on the merits. Each determination under the rule is made on a case-by-case basis for the contract in question, and does not constitute ‘debarment’ for all federal contracts. In other words, a company that is denied one contract on the basis of its legal track record is still eligible to be considered for another federal contract. This rule does not create a blacklist, however much the opponents insist it does.” 

As for due process, the claims here are equally dubious. The rule requires contracting officers to coordinate adverse determinations with agency legal counsel, to notify bidders if they are found non-responsible, and to provide the basis for that determination. If a company disagrees with that determination, the Federal Acquisition Regulation already provides for an appeal process (as directed in Executive Order 12979, Agency Procurement Protests). Moreover, the rule also makes clear that in making a judgement, contracting officers should give the greatest weight to convictions or civil judgments rendered against the prospective contractor in the preceding three years. 

In its Federal Register notice announcing its intent to repeal the rule, the Bush administration ignored industry’s cries of blacklisting, and instead argued in vague terms that it would be impossible to implement and too burdensome on industry. Again, these are not serious arguments – particularly when considered next to the benefits of ensuring the government doesn’t contract with chronic lawbreakers. To facilitate implementation, the rule requires bidding companies to disclose whether they have been found liable for violating the law within the preceding three years. This minimal disclosure requirement – which is the only “burden” placed on industry under the rule – makes it easy for a government contracting officer to make the necessary determination. Implementation is not the real issue. 

“The common arguments used against the contractor responsibility rule seek to dodge the core question: Should we consider a company’s compliance with the law in awarding taxpayer dollars?”, Bass said. “Common sense says yes. The business lobby and its allies in the Bush administration clearly believe the answer is no. They just don’t want to have to defend that position. I can’t say I blame them.” 

By the way, I don't believe President Obama is going to fix this either, he is getting alot of money from the same people as Bush was.....


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

communism doesn't work either....


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## westernexplorer (Jun 20, 2009)

I never said it did, I just said that is what kept those companies in America, not low taxes.....


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

westernexplorer said:


> I never said it did, I just said that is what kept those companies in America, not low taxes.....


you really believe that? ok....


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

> Quote: Brian John
> Yeah So I can get two slackers (bench warmers) or a guy that I know is good and a bench warmer. Promoting a better work force. NOT.
> __________________
> I void warranty's
> ...


Not a blanket a fact. There is a difference.

No foot in mouth here, my bread and butter is on the table based on who works for me I try to hire the best, I DO NOT WANT A RANDOM GUY from any where working for me in a top position. I want to pick my employees. And for 24 years I have.

A small concept we call freedom.

I am a union contractor that pays above scale, offers MORE benefits than required by the hall, pay higher overtime for holidays than contractually required (triple time and a half), give a minimum 8 hours OT when men work any Saturday, Sunday or holiday no matter how many hours they work above 4, Travel time for all off hour work, when men are out sick they get sick may, I have covered up to two months sick leave, wife have a baby two weeks, death in the family one week, plus two weeks vacation (not contractually required) and holidays above the hall mandated, any education classes you feel will help you not just what the hall offers, any tools you want and not that it matters now but we were one of the first contractors to give AC in all our work trucks . Yeah I am just a big ****.

I am not laying this into just ANYBODY's hands I want and need the best and for the most part I have them


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

brian john said:


> Not a blanket a fact. There is a difference.
> 
> 
> I am not laying this into just ANYBODY's hands I want and need the best and for the most part I have them


You can't possibly have the best, I don't work for you.


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

If work ever dries up in hot and sunny socal, I want to go work for the man with two first names. He offers a nice deal. I don't do drugs, and have no arrests, charges or convictions. I like to sleep in though, so I won't be able to start till 8am and I would like to get off at 3pm. And I would like a paid lunch.


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## Minuteman (Dec 29, 2007)

knowshorts said:


> If work ever dries up in hot and sunny socal....


News Flash: Cali is broke, Arnold said so.


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

westernexplorer said:


> To hear guys like you tell it, we should eliminate all taxes on business and the wealthy and the roads will suddenly get paved, the police will hire more officers, the schools will have more money......Supply side economics didn't work not when Reagan, not when Bush, not when Clinton, not when Bush again or when Obama tries it....... Supply side economic's is a failure and it is destroying this country and our way of life.......


Actually I am all in favor of taxes. But I think everyone should have to pay their fair share. Because of the business I get extra tax relieve, but I still pay a lot more than an employee. Yet my better half gets money back every year. Not a refund, she gets back more than she puts in. Is that fair? I bust my ass everyday to make my business grow and she sits in her little air conditioned office all day and gets a little bonus from the FTB and US Treasury. I don't mind paying my share, I just don't want to pay someone elses share.


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## westernexplorer (Jun 20, 2009)

If what you say is true, you are the exception and not the rule. If what you say is true, then I commend you for being a socially responsible employer....


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## acmax (Apr 20, 2009)

brian john said:


> Because the cost of living is less. I can get twice the house in your state than I can get in Northern VA. for 1/2 the price. Taxes are lower as a percentage of income.
> 
> Move to NYC and make what you make, you might be forced to live in a box on the street, and an NYC electrician would live like a king on his NYC salary in your state.


You know that is just a cop out:no:Stupid remarks That try to hide cheap 
plantation mentality business owners in the south. 
That comment has nothing to do with paying someone with a certain level of skill a respectful wage reflective of the time it takes to gain such skills.Demographics sure has become the go to excuse for cheap employers. So 20yrs ago when I moved from West New York to south Florida And they joked that the pay was less because Sunshine every day was part of your compensation package was the truth also.Ha.! They get away with it because of the collusion of business owners that keep out competition.IMO :whistling2:Opps my anger management class is not working.


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## Minuteman (Dec 29, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> _
> 
> I make above scale, and work 12 months.
> *This is not true for MOST nonunion electricians. Who's your daddy?*
> ...


I wasn't comparing my job to LU 3, I was comparing my job to LU 1141, genius. FYI, not all locals have the same deal.


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## westernexplorer (Jun 20, 2009)

acmax,

The plantation metality is still going strong. Snake Oil Salesman, selling ice to the eskimo's.......Its how they get poor people to vote for policy's that only benefit the rich and powerful. Conservative talk radio dominates the airwaves in the nation, not because it's ideas are superior or actually work. They get a steady and very large infusion of cash form Coporate America and big business......


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## Minuteman (Dec 29, 2007)

westernexplorer said:


> The plantation metality is still going strong. Snake Oil Salesman, selling ice to the eskimo's.......Its how they get poor people to vote for policy's that only benefit the rich and powerful. Conservative talk radio dominates the airwaves in the nation, not because it's ideas are superior or actually work. They get a steady and very large infusion of cash form Coporate America and big business......


Sure, cause Air America did so well with all the money from the DNC and the ACLU. Oops, my bad. Conservative talk ACTUALLY has an audience. :whistling2:


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

knowshorts said:


> And a lot of employees want it to be one-sided.
> 
> 
> 
> I would disagree. What labor laws are you referring to? I would say most employers were labor at one time, too. The only time I have really heard of employers try to change labor laws, is when CA went to a 40 hour work week before overtime, rather than after 8 hours. Employers (even large corporations) don't want to dismantle labor laws, they just want their people to produce.


Negative.

Americans produce. Corporations want MORE and they want to pay LESS. Like the "flextime" Bush tried to push through - work OT this week, your employer gives you that many hours off by next week. 

Everytime it's suggested the minimum wage be raised, out come the corporate shills crying about how many jobs will be lost. Unemployment never goes up whenever the minimum wage is increased. Today, if the wage followed inflation, minimum wage would be between $14.00 and $16.00 an hour.



> If work was being done, without all the bitching and moaning that goes on by lazy, entitled, American workers, do you really think we would have lost millions of jobs to Mexico, India, China, etc?


We didn't lose jobs because of American apathy. Would you pay a seamstress 14.00 an hour to sew jeans together when you can pay 16.00 a day to an entire familt to sew jeans together?



> I have heard union guys making $70+ package bitch and complain because they find out their employer is billing out at $125 an hour. They have no idea the costs to run a business.


That's a completely different issue. I hear a 200 amp service in Florida costs about the same as here on Long Island. Yet in Florida, the journeyman doing the job is NOT making $35.00 an hour. Stop trying to justify wage erosion by claiming the rest of the disparity is business related overhead. That's a cop out.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

knowshorts said:


> LGLS,
> Could you please do me a favor and pay just the interest on my house. It's around $6000 a year and it's 100% tax deductible. Thanks.
> 
> Explorer,
> You need to remember there is a big difference between a contractor and an employee. Contractors took a huge financial leap and went into business.


This isn't exactly true. Ther biggest investment in any business is TIME. Many employers started with a van and basic tools and just grew, this was especially true in the 60's - 80's. And yes it takes money to make money, but just because someone "risks" going into business doesn't mean they get to control every aspect of it. 

Further, most of the largest employers got there by buying other successful businesses out. Not much risk-taking there... 



> Employees just want to show up.


Just want to show up and what, sleep? Every person in the world who gets up and goes to work is trading a day of their life and their skills for money. 



> Of course, contractors want to get the most value for their employees. Contractors will pay top dollar to guys who make them top dollar. The guys that don't cut it, will not get raises just because its June 1st. It is the American way to have different pay scales for different people.


Actually, for generations many wages were pretty static and predictable. And you either met the standard of expectation or you didn't get a job or hold it very long.



> Employees will only get paid what they think their worth. If they are getting underpaid or treated like crap (by the examples you stated above), then they should move on.


There are other options, just because you don't like them doesn't mean they're wrong. Funny how in the midst of an organizing campaign many employers suddenly shower their workers with higher wages... did everybody suddenly become more productive during the campaign? 

Fed-Ex did it when the teamsters started their highly publicized organizing drive. And supply-demand economics plays into it too. Guaranteed any contractor advertizing for help right now is "churning" their workforce - looking to replace guys who are making high wages with new blood that is hungry. Hire 3 guys at 20.00, the ROW 3 guys making 30.00 and the contractor makes out like a bandit pocketing another $1200.00 a week.


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

god bless this country...to have the ability to espouse biased opinions and try to pass them off as facts....and have absolutely no repercussions...

i honestly wouldn't want it any other way....


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## Toronto Sparky (Apr 12, 2009)

oldman said:


> god bless this country...to have the ability to espouse biased opinions and try to pass them off as facts....and have absolutely no repercussions...
> 
> i honestly wouldn't want it any other way....



There were falsehoods? 
Other than the $37 / hr thing.. Any Licensed trades person in North America settle that low?
Minimum wage should be at least $15 /hr But Walmart would board up the doors.

Of course one could head into the auto sector where one gets $30 +/ hr unskilled labour.. 


These days anyone that took the time to be trained deserves to be clearing a grand a week. (Week being 37.5 hrs)
All said and done.. Union is the way to spend your life..


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

Toronto Sparky said:


> There were falsehoods?
> Other than the $37 / hr thing.. Anyone Licensed trades person in North America settle that low?
> Minimum wage should be at least $15 /hr But Walmart would board up the doors.
> 
> ...


again biased opinion being passed off as fact...

look at countries like Germany, Sweden, Britain, etc that operate the way many of you want the US to operate...

yep, the average wage is higher, but the standard of living is heavily subsidized by the government...because the cost of living is quite high...

i believe that up in Canada, you guys are in a similar boat...high taxes and government subsidies...

as for union being the way to spend your life....maybe if you want to spend your life working for someone else...but it's really a personal choice, isn't it?


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## Toronto Sparky (Apr 12, 2009)

oldman said:


> again biased opinion being passed off as fact...
> 
> look at countries like Germany, Sweden, Britain, etc that operate the way many of you want the US to operate...
> 
> ...



I live in Canada And will die in Canada (they tell me within 3 years) Without my Union "IBEW" I may already be dead. I have trouble getting out of a chair these days. But thanks to our benefit package I still have a income. 
You wanna argue with that? Well on top of that I was making $1000 / week (after taxes) back before ALS started to take it's toll. 
I truly believe the skilled trades in North America are being underrated. 
We are the best in the world..


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

What's to argue?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

acmax said:


> You know that is just a cop out:no:Stupid remarks That try to hide cheap
> plantation mentality business owners in the south.
> That comment has nothing to do with paying someone with a certain level of skill a respectful wage reflective of the time it takes to gain such skills.Demographics sure has become the go to excuse for cheap employers. So 20yrs ago when I moved from West New York to south Florida And they joked that the pay was less because Sunshine every day was part of your compensation package was the truth also.Ha.! They get away with it because of the collusion of business owners that keep out competition.IMO :whistling2:Opps my anger management class is not working.


So it makes no sense that I can buy a house in Burlington for $245,000.00, 4 bedrooms 2.5 baths on 1/3 of an acre all brick all 4 sides, that up here would cost 550,000.00. My apologies leave NC and come to work here for your wages and try to live.

My taxes on my house are $12,500.00 a year and YOURS? I know based on home values I pay more in homeowners insurance. BUT, ME I JUST AN OLD SLAVE owner, I mean being from Alaska we had a lot of plantations, unlike NC.

They get away with it because that is the way it is NO COLLUSION. Collusion is what a union does. Employees get caught doing this and it is defended by the NRLB. When business owners are caught the FBI is knocking on their door.

One more question, who is going to pull us out of this recession/depression workers? or business that risk capital to grow?


From the OP


> no union bashing or anything just facts


And you tink we can avoid that?


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

So it makes no sense that I can buy a house in Burlington for $245,000.00, 4 bedrooms 2.5 baths on 1/3 of an acre all brick all 4 sides, that up here would cost 550,000.00. My apologies leave NC and come to work here for your wages and try to live.

*So the house is less - because the land is cheap and plentiful, plus people wouldn't buy an average home for a Northern price. Taxes I believe are less though many areas don't supply water, or garbage pickup, or leaf pickup, and did you catch that thread about staying away from all the dirty cops down there? All of this still doesn't justify wages that run 1/2 what they are up here - autos, car insurance, utilities, clothing, food, vacations, college tuition... all of that costs the same. *

My taxes on my house are $12,500.00 a year and YOURS? I know based on home values I pay more in homeowners insurance. 

*I'd say the same or less, up here we hardly ever see devastating Cat 5 storms. Plus, no matter how bad the storm you still own the property - it is the dirt under your house that's more valuable than what's on it - and it isn't covered, so insurance costs are based on loss/reconstruction figures.*


BUT, ME I JUST AN OLD SLAVE owner, I mean being from Alaska we had a lot of plantations, unlike NC.

They get away with it because that is the way it is NO COLLUSION. Collusion is what a union does. Employees get caught doing this and it is defended by the NRLB. When business owners are caught the FBI is knocking on their door.


One more question, who is going to pull us out of this recession/depression workers? or business that risk capital to grow?

*Who CAUSED it? Not us peons that's for sure. Who SHOULD pay?*


From the OP


And you tink we can avoid that?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> *Who CAUSED it? Not us peons that's for sure. Who SHOULD pay?*
> 
> t?



Well many have a hand in this, those folks that took negative equity mortgages or other creative financing that our congress allowed to be given out. Greedy wall streeters and blind bankers that took chances they never should have and the blame goes on and on. But there is plenty of blame for those in the working class that borrowed more than they should have.

My father was a banker and CPA he always said bankers should wear blue suits and white shirts because they are conservative, NOT RISK TAKERS which is what they did with our money in the last 20 years.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

Brian John Do you guys have self solicitation In local 26? Is that the local your out of? 26's local do they have branch locals? Are you saying all guys coming of the list are bums or you saying you don't want to risk getting a bum of the list?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

westernexplorer said:


> acmax,
> 
> The plantation metality is still going strong. Snake Oil Salesman, selling ice to the eskimo's.......Its how they get poor people to vote for policy's that only benefit the rich and powerful. Conservative talk radio dominates the airwaves in the nation, not because it's ideas are superior or actually work. They get a steady and very large infusion of cash form Coporate America and big business......



So once again you would want to limit freedoms and curtail speech? All because your boys can muster a decent show that the public wants to hear. (And I NEVER LISTEN TIO RUSH or similar shows). Man you are so AMERICAN, happy May Day. I mean 4th of July.:laughing:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Loose Neutral said:


> Brian John Do you guys have self solicitation In local 26? Is that the local your out of? 26's local do they have branch locals? Are you saying all guys coming of the list are bums or you saying you don't want to risk getting a bum of the list?


I think there are 100's of VERY GOOD men on the bench (unfortunately) and maybe 1 out of a 100 is a PIA (maybe less). DO I want to gamble on that NO. I prefer to interview my employees and pick the best IMO.


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## westernexplorer (Jun 20, 2009)

brian john said:


> They get away with it because that is the way it is NO COLLUSION. Collusion is what a union does. Employees get caught doing this and it is defended by the NRLB. When business owners are caught the FBI is knocking on their door.
> 
> One more question, who is going to pull us out of this recession/depression workers? or business that risk capital to grow?


 
Your shoveling again.....LOL. The Oil companies, big insurance, and the list goes on are in COLUSION all the time..... I'm sorry, the Oil Companies, investigated themselves and found they didn't fix the price of gasoline....and Congress and the President said if you say so....another campaign contribution please...?


Minuteman,

You should do better homework. You are right about Air America hurting for cash. I can see why Business's would line up to give them money, because they talk about raising the minimum wage, national health insurance, worker rights........oh I forgot, Rush talks about all those things on the EIB network. 

Rush Limbaugh is a coporate shill who never misses a chance to bash unions and try and make everyone feel sorry for those poor CEO's on Wall Street.....Snake Oil Saleman he is.

My Father is a small business owner for the last 35 years and he will tell you that small business and coporate America, have nothing in common......Rush would have you believe different.....ofcourse he is a Snake Oil Saleman.....LOL.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

westernexplorer said:


> Your shoveling again.....LOL. The Oil companies, big insurance, and the list goes on are in COLUSION all the time..... I'm sorry, the Oil Companies, investigated themselves and found they didn't fix the price of gasoline....and Congress and the President said if you say so....another campaign contribution please...?


You man is in office and unemployment is on the rise as is the price of gasoline and you propoganda for this?



> Rush Limbaugh is a coporate shill who never misses a chance to bash unions and try and make everyone feel sorry for those poor CEO's on Wall Street.....Snake Oil Saleman he is.


SO you were curtail his rights, RIGHT.



> My Father is a small business owner for the last 35 years and he will tell you that small business and coporate America, have nothing in common......Rush would have you believe different.....ofcourse he is an Snake Oil Saleman.....LOL.


Small business are corporate America, most job creations are in small business. Once again you are sooooo off the mark. But I expected that.


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## westernexplorer (Jun 20, 2009)

brian john said:


> Small business are corporate America, most job creations are in small business. Once again you are sooooo off the mark. But I expected that.


If you think so, just go down sign up for your bailout check, then you find out your not the same......no money for you or my father.....but they sure have plenty for the Banks, Insurance Companies, Big Auto Companies.....I thought you were smarter than that, Brian John...

By the way, Obama is not my man, this country has not had a decent President since before you or me. The Republa-Crats are screwing this country up good. Just ask them, when either party is in power, it's always the other parties fault.....lol


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

westernexplorer said:


> If you think so, just go down sign up for your bailout check, then you find out your not the same......no money for you or my father.....but they sure have plenty for the Banks, Insurance Companies, Big Auto Companies.....I thought you were smarter than that, Brian John...


I do not want the money and I was not for the bail outs, Bush and Big "O" pushed that crap I was all for letting them fail. You can't make it, you can go the way of whip makers. Look at Amtrak there is a bail out success. NOT.



> By the way, Obama is not my man, this country has not had a decent President since before you or me. The Republa-Crats are screwing this country up good. Just ask them, when either party is in power, it's always the other parties fault.....lol


And now we finally agree.


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## Minuteman (Dec 29, 2007)

Toronto Sparky said:


> There were falsehoods?
> Other than the $37 / hr thing.. Any Licensed trades person in North America settle that low?
> Minimum wage should be at least $15 /hr But Walmart would board up the doors.
> 
> ...


Raise minimum wage to $15, make it $20, it won't hurt Walmart one little bit. They will just adjust their prices to offset the wage increase. McDonald's will advertise their new $5.99 "value" menu. Won't be a year, and everyone will be crying about raising it again.


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## westernexplorer (Jun 20, 2009)

Quote: Brian John
And now we finally agree


How about that........ Have a good 4th of July......


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Minuteman said:


> Raise minimum wage to $15, make it $20, it won't hurt Walmart one little bit. They will just adjust their prices to offset the wage increase. McDonald's will advertise their new $5.99 "value" menu. Won't be a year, and everyone will be crying about raising it again.



And that is basic economics, something many miss in the rush to help the poor.

Make India self dependent, which was the cry for years of do gooders, now that they are we are losing jobs to them and worry that their pollution will make anything we did pale in comparison. Can mess with mother and economics with false infusion of help. Please read Mr. Big "O"


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## Minuteman (Dec 29, 2007)

Want to hurt Walmart? Make a law that gives Mom & Pop businesses an advantage, where the little guy gets a financial break.


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## westernexplorer (Jun 20, 2009)

Vice President Cheney said during his term, "Reagan, Proved Deficiet's don't matter....." The supply siders said if we just cut taxes on the rich and business the economic activity it would creat would fill the US Treasury and we could pay down the US debt and straighten the country out.......Boy that really happened......NOT. Yet another Snake Oil Saleman....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRZUaW0HwCM


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

electricalperson said:


> can somebody explain to me why someone would think the union is bad?


So EP ............ is this thread all you hoped for? :laughing:

You might as well ask about abortion, gay marriage or which is the true religion.:whistling2:


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

hey, i just want westernexplorer to come up with another phrase besides "snake oil salesman"....he's hung his hat on it too many times...


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## Minuteman (Dec 29, 2007)

Bob Badger said:


> So EP ............ is this thread all you hoped for?
> 
> You might as well ask about abortion, gay marriage or which is the true religion.:whistling2:


Yeah, you trying to start a fight? :boxing: :2guns::gun_bandana::gunsmilie:


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> One more question, who is going to pull us out of this recession/depression workers? or business that risk capital to grow?
> 
> *Who CAUSED it? Not us peons that's for sure. Who SHOULD pay?*


Dumb ass people who thought they were entitled and over extended their credit. A lot of people thought they could take their equity and it was theirs, they didn't have to pay it back. Can you blame the banks, not really, they found a market to make money off of stupid people.


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## westernexplorer (Jun 20, 2009)

LOL....Ha..Ha..Ha. I guess I could call them Coporate Hacks, Con-Men, White Collar criminals, Robber Baron's, Blue Bloods or Coporate Parasites.....LOL


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

westernexplorer said:


> Your shoveling again.....LOL. The Oil companies, big insurance, and the list goes on are in COLUSION all the time..... I'm sorry, the Oil Companies, investigated themselves and found they didn't fix the price of gasoline....and Congress and the President said if you say so....another campaign contribution please...?


When oil companies were posting record profits and everyone was bitching, did anyone in the media ever wonder why? If their margins stayed the same, because of their costs, of coarse their profits would increase. 

Before the downturn, a real estate agent friends' profits (income) went up. She didn't have to do a thing. She stayed at 3%. A waitress friend had her profits (income) increase. She didn't have to do a thing. Food prices went up. The girl who cuts my hair, her profits (income) went up. Her supplies increased in cost. When copper and steel prices were sky high, my profits went up substantially. Yet as a percentage, they stayed the same.


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## westernexplorer (Jun 20, 2009)

knowshorts said:


> Can you blame the banks, not really, they found a market to make money off of stupid people.


 
Have you lost your mind...? Ofcourse the Banks are to blame. They put the entire nation at risk and they were able to do that, because of de-regulation under the watchful eyes of both political parties. I'm glad you enjoy the results of the coporate shills actions. 

We once lived through this stuff before, it was called the "Gilded Age" Almost NO regulation on business or finanace. It resulted in the collapse of our economy, called the Great Depression..... But I guess that didn't happen in your world, almost like the Holocaust not happening in the tiny mind of the President of Iran.....LOL.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

westernexplorer said:


> Have you lost your mind...? Ofcourse the Banks are to blame. They put the entire nation at risk and they were able to do that, because of de-regulation under the watchful eyes of both political parties. I'm glad you enjoy the results of the coporate shills actions.


With the blessing of congress and all presidents since the peanut man.


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## westernexplorer (Jun 20, 2009)

Brian John,
We agree AGAIN.......that is twice in one day.....This could be dangerous......LOL.....:jester:


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## retired 7373 (Feb 28, 2009)

minuteman said:


> to many members, you be will view upon as an outsider, you didn't go through "the program" so, you are not a real brother. If you should join, many will say that you bought your ticket. Some may even accuse you of taking a brothers job, should the books start getting a of of names on it.
> Oh, and yes, there will be many that will cast dispersions upon you training and or methods.
> 
> You will have to learn how to work slower, how to whine about conditions, and most importantly - that you never go back to work from break before the steward does! :no:


lol-lol-lol-lol-lol


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## Toronto Sparky (Apr 12, 2009)

Being Union gives you a fair piece of the pie.. However be prepared to be out of work of long periods at a time.. Overall (long term) Your life will be better being union. 
Remember one of the biggest (long term) cost in life tends to be medical.

At the same time if you are a gung ho willing to go out of your way for your employer type of guy, full time (Lifetime) non-union may be the way to go.
Just be careful they don't rope you over the coals. (any successful contractor can afford at least $25 - $30 / hr. but normally without benefits)


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Toronto Sparky said:


> Being Union gives you a fair piece of the pie..
> 
> 
> > I hate when anybody says that WHAT TO HELL IS FAIR?
> ...


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## retired 7373 (Feb 28, 2009)

brian john said:


> Toronto Sparky said:
> 
> 
> > Being Union gives you a fair piece of the pie..
> ...


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

retired 7373 said:


> Unless you are a personal friend of a non union contractor you will get kicked to th curb if you low down any at all.


That is such a load of crap to say as a blanket statement.

Sure it can happen, just like the union screws some workers as well.

Neither is perfect and both can have a-holes running things.


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## retired 7373 (Feb 28, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> That is such a load of crap to say as a blanket statement.
> 
> Sure it can happen, just like the union screws some workers as well.
> 
> Neither is perfect and both can have a-holes running things.


Bob never having worked non union i can not make that statement on personal experience about getting older and being laid off. I would guess that is more the norm that you are willing to admit- uness of course there is more work than manpower available then of course you keep the older wireman. I find you picking this out of my post and not saying anything about the benefits is totally typical of people like you.


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## gilbequick (Oct 6, 2007)

retired 7373 said:


> I find you picking this out of my post and not saying anything about the benefits is totally typical of people like you.


Naah, I don't agree with that at all. He just picked the part he disagreed with. He didn't disagree with the benefits situation, just what you said about kicking people to the curb. It wasn't a slam against the union just a disagreement with what you said. 

Let's have a civilized *discussion* about things and not get pissy and personal for a change. It's when people start attacking that immediately sheds their side in a bad light.


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## Toronto Sparky (Apr 12, 2009)

The benefit package is the Main reason to belong to the union.
The money probably works out about the same over the long haul.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

retired 7373 said:


> Bob never having worked non union i can not make that statement on personal experience about getting older and being laid off.


Having never worked 'non-union' all you know is hearsay and rumors.

I fully acknowledge that are horrible non-union shops that treat their employees poorly but in my experience having worked non-union for 25 years it is not the norm.




> I find you picking this out of my post and not saying anything about the benefits is totally typical of people like you.


What are 'people like me'?

I look at things honestly and not just from one side.

Yes, the union does do a lot for employees, I have never said otherwise.

But many non-union shops also treat their employees well.

As far as being pushed out when we slow down ........ we should be, there is no reason todays customer should pay top dollar for a guy that passed his prime years ago.

I am slowing down and I look in the mirror and ask myself "What *AM I* going to do about it" I don't look for someone to take care of me till I'm dead just because I used to be much more productive.

It's a hard world and no one owes anyone anything, I make my own way. At this point I am going to some classes so I can move out of the field and be productive inside.


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## Toronto Sparky (Apr 12, 2009)

Seems to me in Toronto one out of four on site has to be 50+


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Toronto Sparky said:


> Seems to me in Toronto one out of four on site has to be 50+


By chance?

By union rules?

By Canadian law?

If it is one of the last two that sounds a lot like socialism and not free business.


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## Toronto Sparky (Apr 12, 2009)

Union rule.. (I think only in my local) May be in the provincial agreement. I will look it up.

OK I found it in the Provincial Agreement (Ontario) 

706.. "Where five or more Journeyman are employed every fifth Journeyman shall be fifty years of age or older , where available"

Not sure if that means the 10th , 15th (and so on) must also be 50+


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## retired 7373 (Feb 28, 2009)

Bob
The Customer-give me a break- i bet you have screwed over the customer many times- you are a sad person- you justify your being a jerk as being true to the customer- everytime you went to work not feeling well you screwed over the customer. Does the shop you work for pay health insurenace and a decent retirement benefit- how many times have you told a customer that the union is screwing everybody over. You sure dont mind making a decent living for yourself even if you are screwing the customer- you think you are so great and everybody except you are screwing he customer.
it would be interesting to see what you call a productive man hour. I never ran doing worrk and refused to do so. I was always productive and believed in doing so. Its people like you with your attitudes that screw it up for everybody.
Taking clases -lol-lol-lol- No ego problem with you-lol-lol.
Why dont we just shoot everybody over 40 so the customer always gets a good deal. Except you of course after all you are taking classes-lol-lol-lol


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

When I was 18 i spent my first winter in the trade and first on a deck. It also happened to be one of DC's coldest, the Potomac froze 3' thick. I looked around and thought there are wino's, druggies, a few old men and 3 apprentices, I'll be damned if in 30 years I am one of the others, I stated working my way around the trade, residential, commercial, fire alarm, commercial service and finally testing. 

One has to prepare for the future, not have the world prepare for you.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

retired 7373 said:


> Why dont we just shoot everybody over 40 so the customer always gets a good deal.


Sounds great and is just what I said. :laughing:


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

Bob Badger said:


> Sounds great and is just what I said. :laughing:


I knew it! You're an anti-elderite. 

I personally believe the age of shooting should continuous change. And should always be 1 year older than I am


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Bob, please stop bringing common sense to this discussion. It's really ruining it.  

:laughing:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

retired 7373 said:


> Bob
> The Customer-give me a break- i bet you have screwed over the customer many times- you are a sad person- you justify your being a jerk as being true to the customer- everytime you went to work not feeling well you screwed over the customer. Does the shop you work for pay health insurenace and a decent retirement benefit- how many times have you told a customer that the union is screwing everybody over. You sure dont mind making a decent living for yourself even if you are screwing the customer- you think you are so great and everybody except you are screwing he customer.
> it would be interesting to see what you call a productive man hour. I never ran doing worrk and refused to do so. I was always productive and believed in doing so. Its people like you with your attitudes that screw it up for everybody.
> Taking clases -lol-lol-lol- No ego problem with you-lol-lol.
> Why dont we just shoot everybody over 40 so the customer always gets a good deal. Except you of course after all you are taking classes-lol-lol-lol


??????????????????????????:blink::blink::blink:


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Bob Badger said:


> It's a hard world and no one owes anyone anything, I make my own way.


I can see it now, written in fat sharpie on a slice of brown cardboard:

"Retired non-union electrician
anything helps....
God Bless!!"

See yah on the freeway offramp!


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

OH NO, I am pissing off those that feel entitled.


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## walkerj (May 13, 2007)

Bob Badger said:


> OH NO, I am pissing off those that feel entitled.


Thank you, Bob:thumbsup:


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## acmax (Apr 20, 2009)

Looking around I have yet to see anybody getting younger. And having seen and worked with many younger men I certainly do not feel threatened by the generation following us. There is advantages to both union and open shop and one needs the other to compare to. There is no doubt that if not for the threat of a union, employers would cut you to the bone. If you know your history you see the reasoning.This topic never can be simple.


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## retired 7373 (Feb 28, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> OH NO, I am pissing off those that feel entitled.


 
Bob,
Please state how much you make yearly and your benefits. Entitled we are not talking about street drunks we are talking about professional people who work for a living.For all we know you are nothng but a street drunk running off at the mouth. Reality -lol-lol-If you are so concerned about the customer then you should be making about $5.00 and hour and taking your chidren to the local povery hospital. Also the contractor you work for should cut his profit margin to around 5% after all this is best for the customer. And hell yes I am entitled to a decent wage and benefits when I work. You run off at the mouth but you obviously make a decent living, you just dont think other people deserve to do the same. As I said you are talking out your a??.


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

retired 7373 said:


> Bob,
> Please state how much you make yearly and your benefits. Entitled we are not talking about street drunks we are talking about professional people who work for a living.For all we know you are nothng but a street drunk running off at the mouth. Reality -lol-lol-If you are so concerned about the customer then you should be making about $5.00 and hour and taking your chidren to the local povery hospital. Also the contractor you work for should cut his profit margin to around 5% after all this is best for the customer. And hell yes I am entitled to a decent wage and benefits when I work. You run off at the mouth but you obviously make a decent living, you just dont think other people deserve to do the same. As I said you are talking out your a??.


You can say ass.


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

retired 7373 said:


> Bob,
> Please state how much you make yearly and your benefits. Entitled we are not talking about street drunks we are talking about professional people who work for a living.For all we know you are nothng but a street drunk running off at the mouth. Reality -lol-lol-If you are so concerned about the customer then you should be making about $5.00 and hour and taking your chidren to the local povery hospital. Also the contractor you work for should cut his profit margin to around 5% after all this is best for the customer. And hell yes I am entitled to a decent wage and benefits when I work. You run off at the mouth but you obviously make a decent living, you just dont think other people deserve to do the same. As I said you are talking out your a??.


you, my good man, are doing a fantastic job at proving that there is truth in stereotypes....carry on....


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## Minuteman (Dec 29, 2007)

I don't know if any of this debate has convinced the OP one way or the other, but I have decided that I will not talk old - when I get old. :no:


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

retired 7373 said:


> Bob,
> Please state how much you make yearly and your benefits. Entitled we are not talking about street drunks we are talking about professional people who work for a living.For all we know you are nothng but a street drunk running off at the mouth. Reality -lol-lol-If you are so concerned about the customer then you should be making about $5.00 and hour and taking your chidren to the local povery hospital. Also the contractor you work for should cut his profit margin to around 5% after all this is best for the customer. And hell yes I am entitled to a decent wage and benefits when I work. You run off at the mouth but you obviously make a decent living, you just dont think other people deserve to do the same. As I said you are talking out your a??.


Dude, I have no interest in trying to discuss this with you, you are obviously a one sided guy who can not read a post without getting upset.

I hope your have a long happy retirement and your meds keep you healthy.


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## westernexplorer (Jun 20, 2009)

You guys are all wrong.....Ha..Ha..Ha.... Just kidding....Man, someone turned the heat up in this thread...LOL.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

The great thing about this country is up till now we all have a freedom to work where we please (with certain exceptions and I will avoid delving into these).

Many open shop men have a bitterness against the IBEW, there are legitimate reasons for this many times, at least in the workers mind. I was bitter against the IBEW for some mistreatment I received as a open shop worker and as a new union member, but swallowed my distaste for the consistent money and benefits. 

Many union men are bitter against open shop workers feeling they are stealing their work. Which ain't so but is a legitimate perception.

Can't we all just get along? HELL NO so it seems.


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## retired 7373 (Feb 28, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> Dude, I have no interest in trying to discuss this with you, you are obviously a one sided guy who can not read a post without getting upset.
> 
> I hope your have a long happy retirement and your meds keep you healthy.


Dude as i said you are running off at the mouth- this is not a union non union thing this is about some jerk saying peopel deserve to be paid less because of what is best for the customer when he himself is making a great salary and benefits yet he does not think other people deserve those same benefits.
The customer should have to pay for decent wages and benefits and then you have people like bob come along and tells the customer he can give them the lowest price and a bunch of other lies, yet he does not tell the customer how much he is making off the customer just that no one else should make a decent salary.
I am so happy that I no longer have to put up with people like you.
I dont expect everybody to be union or non union, expect people to be paid a decent wage and benefits. All this crap about entilements is just that crap. You benefit daily from the system we have in the United States . And yes i do take the wages and benefits seriously.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

retired 7373 said:


> Dude as i said you are running off at the mouth- this is not a union non union thing *this is about some jerk saying *peopel deserve to be paid less because of what is best for the customer when he himself is making a great salary and benefits yet he does not think other people deserve those same benefits.


Again your not discussing you busy calling names and ignoring what I really posted. Your post above could not be father from the truth, but you are not interested in any truths only typical Union brainwashed BS.

Have a great retirement.

If you decide to discuss the issue like an adult let me know.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

I wish Bob was at Starbucks!! He's too talented in the trade for that, I know, he's like a codencyclopedia-come-handbook of all-trades.

But we need more like him. The $5 lattes need to stop. They probably cost a quarter to make, and my wallet feels the pain when the wife stops there daily. Who the hell are these people to charge me $5 a cup when they need just $1 to keep the lights on???

Hell, I'll bet Bob gave more than his share of free sweat and grease when he last roped in an espresso joint. Don't get me started on those folks that sell shoes made in China by slave labor for more than a hundred bucks. What about that $500k triple bypass? Does your mother take and $300 pills?

What? Bob didn't rope that one? Yeah, but he was hovering over the plan table and talking on the phone the whole time a couple second-year guys did all the legwork. Still, talking shop with the PM on the drive too and from work and looking at the plans at home, well, that's still work isn't it? Even if its not necessarily paid time, it's Bob, giving his share to the contractor's overhead.

Bob, your altruism stinks, and its holding the rest of us down. We electricians are professionals, and we are middle-class. It takes an educated, experienced, and intelligent professional to do profitable installations at more than a basic level. We are entitled to that middle-class lifestyle, just like white-collar people, who have a license to steal, believe they are entitled to. 

How it ends, is when intelligent gents such as yourself, are brought into the game. You don't have the belief in yourself that you are good enough, and continue to lack self-confidence and be a people pleaser. Your tendency to please people that you see as important for praise in return, continues the cycle. Well, you are good enough, now quit giving away the skills you worked so many years and studied hard to acquire!

Hardwork is honorable indeed. Now, to feel satisfied when you give something away to the contractor, that is getting your head screwed on backwards. The contractor surely will convince you when times are tough, to take a share of his burden, understand his risk and give a little more, but when times are good, don't expect much more than your paycheck when he gets his big profits! Yes, I have seen the hush hush incentives for foremen, but they are a pretty penny compared to how much they really bring in.

Another way it ends is when competent folks are brought in from third world countries who feel as if to get a fraction of what we make is a windfall lottery, look whats happened to computer programmers and sheet rockers. 

Bob, don't lead the impressionable youngsters down this path, implying that there is some kind of glory in guzzling three rockstars and burning up their bodies. It will haunt yah, and if it won't, I hope the Brotherhood will.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> 750,000 men and women cant be wrong im assuming


How many non union workers are there?


It's not about right/wrong, it's about choices.


*Personally*, I hated belonging the unions. They were as corrupt and narrow minded as politicians.

Like so many other things they are a good concept gone bad. Their basic message got corrupted over the years into the stereotypical image they "enjoy" today.


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## Toronto Sparky (Apr 12, 2009)

I'm thinking you have to be union if your gonna be buying stuff at Starbucks. 
Besides Tim Hortons is Sooooo much better.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

miller_elex said:


> Bob, don't lead the impressionable youngsters down this path, implying that there is some kind of glory in guzzling three rockstars and burning up their bodies. It will haunt yah, and if it won't, I hope the Brotherhood will.


Anther guy that has forgotten _what I actually posted _and made up his own version for both of us. 

Your doing great job keeping that closed mind stereotype rolling. :thumbsup:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

retired 7373 said:


> For all we know you are nothng but a street drunk running off at the mouth. As I said you are talking out your a??.


WOW .. first, who is *WE?? *Try and find 1 other person who share your views on this forum. :no:

If you took your head out of *your* a$$, you might of read some of Bob's posts before making yourself look like a fool in need of new meds :drink:


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## retired 7373 (Feb 28, 2009)

Toronto Sparky said:


> I'm thinking you have to be union if your gonna be buying stuff at Starbucks.
> Besides Tim Hortons is Sooooo much better.


They showed a segment on tv here about Tim Hortons, it was a good show. Who would have known.


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

I like Tim Hortons coffee and donuts, hate Krispy Kream.


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## retired 7373 (Feb 28, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> WOW .. first, who is *WE?? *Try and find 1 other person who share your views on this forum. :no:
> 
> If you took your head out of *your* a$$, you might of read some of Bob's posts before making yourself look like a fool in need of new meds :drink:


 
I read what Bob posted and I understand exactly what he meant. As for the we it should have read I. 
When Bob goes home and tells his wife they are selling the house and moving into a cheap apartment and that he is voluntering to take a 50% cut in pay because this is whats needed to be fair to the customer then I will think he and most likely you are not talking out your ass.
After all why should the customer have to pay for Bob and his famly to live in a nice house, heck that is stealing from the customer and why should the customer have to pay for Bob to make a decent wage, another example of stealing from the customer.
I stated the part about the meds to show that I was being taken care of by the union and wondering how many non union contractors would have done this for one of their electricians. Again I understood exactly what Bob is saying.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Some people just can't be helped :no:


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

retired 7373 said:


> I read what Bob posted and I understand exactly what he meant. ........................Again I understood exactly what Bob is saying.


Its obvious you do not.

Why not use the quote button on the exact part of my post you have a problem with and ask me a direct question about it?

Oh yeah, your having to much fun ranting.:whistling2:


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## westernexplorer (Jun 20, 2009)

brian john said:


> The great thing about this country is up till now we all have a freedom to work where we please (with certain exceptions and I will avoid delving into these).
> 
> Many open shop men have a bitterness against the IBEW, there are legitimate reasons for this many times, at least in the workers mind. I was bitter against the IBEW for some mistreatment I received as a open shop worker and as a new union member, but swallowed my distaste for the consistent money and benefits.
> 
> ...


Brian John,

I too, started in the open shops before becoming an organized IBEW Brother. I too, had to walk the gontlet and put up with lots of crap from the welcoming committee....LOL. I think that every new organized guy in the IBEW has to "prove themselves" to the rank and file. But, I guess that the way it is with almost any organization.....like a green horn on a CRAB Boat in the Bering Sea....LOL. Some of us survive the trials and others choose to quit and go back to the open shops.


As I have said before and I think you would agree, even with all of the ups and downs I'm proud I stayed in the IBEW, IMO it's better than the alternative, but to each his own....


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## amptech (Sep 21, 2007)

I don't understand why anyone is getting hung up on the "customer" issue and is taking it so far overboard. As an electrician, union or not, you have a right to expect to be reasonably compensated for your time and knowledge when you do a job. The employer has a right to expect he/she is getting their money's worth from the time they are paying the electrician to work. The customer has a right to expect the company they hired to give them good value for what they are paying, i.e. effective use of time(especially if it is a T&M job), quality materials and craftsmanship. Nobody is entitled to anything they don't work for or pay for. Simple as that. An old retired union electrician helped me quite a bit when I was first starting out and hadn't decided to try to get in to the IBEW or go open shop. He didn't push me one way or the other but he did tell me that if I did get in to the IBEW that I should be careful not to let it go to my head. He said the pay and benefits are bigger but along with them came higher expectations. He said too many guys top out and hit cruise control thinking they have made it and are entitled to a higher standard of living for the rest of their lives automatically. He said those are the guys who end up sitting the bench when they are in their 30s because no good contractor will waste their time with them. I've seen union and non-union outfits come and go over the last 30 years because they either cut corners, did hack work, took advantage of employees and couldn't keep them or charged Cadillac prices for Yugo work. The open market and time has a way of dealing with these type of things.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

drsparky said:


> I like Tim Hortons coffee and donuts, hate Krispy Kream.


Krispy Kreme may be going out of business....bankrupt


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

westernexplorer said:


> Brian John,
> 
> I too, started in the open shops before becoming an organized IBEW Brother. I too, had to walk the gontlet and put up with lots of crap from the welcoming committee....LOL. I think that every new organized guy in the IBEW has to "prove themselves" to the rank and file. But, I guess that the way it is with almost any organization.....like a green horn on a CRAB Boat in the Bering Sea....LOL. Some of us survive the trials and others choose to quit and go back to the open shops.
> 
> ...




One of my issues was once in was I was picked to be the foreman because of my knowledge and willingness to read about what was required (company was starting an electrical testing group). For this I received extreme crap. IMO jealousy and resentment.

AS for better I also believe in the long run with the consistency of pay and benefits one is better off.


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## westernexplorer (Jun 20, 2009)

brian john said:


> One of my issues was once in was I was picked to be the foreman because of my knowledge and willingness to read about what was required (company was starting an electrical testing group). For this I received extreme crap. IMO jealousy and resentment.
> 
> AS for better I also believe in the long run with the consistency of pay and benefits one is better off.


 
We Agree.............


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## westernexplorer (Jun 20, 2009)

I had a similar situation. I was sent to several jobs and given the shaft by jeolous foreman. Finally I ended up on a job with an old Foreman who was secure with himself and didn't feel theatened. He gave me my shot and he told the Contractor that I was shining like a new penny. The Contractor gave me an apprenetice and a service van and let me run jobs for a couple of years until he passed away. I even got to wire up the new IBEW Fifth District International Vice President's Office for the SE region of the US. After that, I had fun with the good old boys, telling them JJ Barry didn't trust anyone, but an organized hand, to wire up the offices of his IVP's..........LOL. It took several years and a lot of thick skin, but now many of the old hands show me a lot of respect, and even call me form time to time with questions......But boy, that first couple of years was rough.......I'm sure glad the ink finally dried on my yellow ticket.....


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## Toronto Sparky (Apr 12, 2009)

brian john said:


> Krispy Kreme may be going out of business....bankrupt


I can't help but wonder what inspired them to name it "Krispy Kreme"
When Kreme gets Krispy your supposed to throw it out.


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

electricalperson said:


> i am thinking of applying at the local union around here. i wouldnt mind the experience under my belt.
> 
> the company i work for is very anti union for reasons unknown to me. i had a discussion with somebody there and they said its bad for both the employer and employees
> 
> ...


 You are obviously have already made up your mind and are just asking rhetorical questions. You are excited and gun-ho looking for a good debate, and I can relate to that.

A word of advice the actual number IBEW membership number as of 2008 as per the DOL website is 708,638 IBEW union members and that is down from the 722,095 in 2002. Overall IBEW is losing ground, and considering the 8+ million estimated jobs in the electrical field (census data includes low voltage jobs) the 708K is a minority opinion and the other 7M (+/-) cant all be wrong either. You may want to rethink your bullet points and stick with the “brother hood” angle it seems to be more effective against facts.

Good luck with your carrier and don’t believe everything they tell you.


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

PhatElvis said:


> Good luck with your carrier and don’t believe everything they tell you.


i don't remember his saying he bought a new air conditioner:whistling2::laughing:


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

oldman said:


> i don't remember his saying he bought a new air conditioner:whistling2::laughing:


 LOL.... my 18 hour days are catching up with me. At least its good for some entertainment value..."Career"


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## LJSMITH1 (May 4, 2009)

retired 7373 said:


> I read what Bob posted and I understand exactly what he meant. As for the we it should have read I.
> When Bob goes home and tells his wife they are selling the house and moving into a cheap apartment and that he is voluntering to take a 50% cut in pay because this is whats needed to be fair to the customer then I will think he and most likely you are not talking out your ass.
> After all why should the customer have to pay for Bob and his famly to live in a nice house, heck that is stealing from the customer and why should the customer have to pay for Bob to make a decent wage, another example of stealing from the customer.
> I stated the part about the meds to show that I was being taken care of by the union and wondering how many non union contractors would have done this for one of their electricians. Again I understood exactly what Bob is saying.


I am not one to get embroiled in one of these discussions, but let's take a higher level view of whats going on....

*retired 7373*: Do you or your wife shop for the lowest price around for things that you purchase with your hard-earned money? (i.e. at your local supermarket, your local retail shops, etc.) How about when buying a new car? An new home? A new computer? Be honest. 

I will bet that you AND your entire family shop around looking for the lowest price on anything that is consumed. It is that VERY capitalistic action that is driving the price that someone is willing to pay for your services and/or products. If the supply is small, the price goes up. 

I am willing to bet that you will not pay 20% more for a car from a dealer just so you can feel good about contributing to the mechanics pension fund, or medical care plan. In fact, you are contributing to the very same pressures that are putting unionized and non-unionized folks out on the street collecting unemployment. We all are contributing. Heck, why is there even bidding on projects? Just take the first price offered and be done with it. 

*The customer demand entitles us to work, and not the other way around. *If the customer doesn't want to pay what you feel you are worth, they won't hire you. They may not hire anyone. It's their choice.

In order for any company to survive in a capitalist society (we are still capitalist, right?), they must provide a product or service for a price that a customer is willing to pay (assuming supply and demand are equal). That's the way it works - there really are no exceptions. The company makes a profit, and they get to stay in business and, most importantly - grow -hire more people - and help raise the standard of living. There will always be people that are willing to try to cheat the system - on both sides of the workforce. White collar folks do not feel anymore entitled than blue-collar folks. There are folks that steal in the union and in corporate America.

All the price shopping does is drive prices downward. This starts a chain reaction...the distributor/supplier shops around, causing the manufacturer to lower prices - somehow. Typically the cost of labor in the US is the highest component. If the manufacturer can't lower prices domestically...guess what? They move operations overseas, where the standard of living is much lower. This is why China has become the 'go-to' place for much of the world's manufacturing labor. Don't worry, China will eventually become too expensive (just like Taiwan and Japan are now), and the manufacturers will find other parts of the globe to set up shop. It will never end until the standard of living around the world stabilizes at a certain level.

Some unionized folks have a sense of entitlement that goes beyond a "fair and reasonable" view of value. The customer determines actual value, not the other way around. In many cases, this is why many "sanitation engineers" (i.e. garbage men) are making more money than a 1st grade teacher. We as a society have placed a higher value on getting rid of garbage, than in the molding our children's minds. Let's face it, the customer could care less about your pension, IRA, medical care, or you and your family. They are more concerned about their pension, IRA, medical care and their families. 

As an Engineer, I am baffled at how peers of mine who help manage Hedge Funds make 1000% more salary than I do. What about pro-athletes? (don't get me started!) I feel I have more complicated knowledge, skill, education, and a more difficult job - thus I should have more perceived value. Somehow, the market doesn't agree.:blink: So be it. I am happy with what I have been able to accomplish so far. I am happy with what I have been able to do because I fully understand how capitalism works.

IMO the brotherhood mentality about looking at fellow non-union electricians as people who are 'taking food away' from their families is complete silliness (and borderline socialist). In my view, most of these fellow, non-union electricians are patriotic AMERICANS, and are entitled to anything that they can earn - even if they are willing to work without benefits or higher wages. Does that mean that they are bad people? NO! They are doing the same thing as you are - putting food on the table for themselves and their families. Why should they have to be part of a socialized labor cartel to earn a living? It is their own free will, and unions should respect that, not punish or ridicule those who choose not to participate in the 'club'.

Please do not take this as being disrespectful, as I have no intention of being so.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*union non-union*



retired 7373 said:


> brian john said:
> 
> 
> > I am retired on medical disability. I was a member of the IBEW for 32 years.
> ...


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> ... I'd rather work for 49.00 an hour for 1/2 a year than for 25.00 an hour 12 months a year.


The grasshopper mentality suits you well.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*Unionize*

There are pros and cons to unionization. More pros than cons. You have to make your own decision based on information you receive. I have worked with some pretty rotten union people and some rotten non-union people. I know the difference, believe me. When it comes to whether a company makes a decision to be union or not, to an extent it is about control of what they have started.
But mostly it is about money. The "worker" cannot possibly be worth that much. Tsk. What you should look at is the number of Unionized companies to see that both the worker and the company can make money. Otherwise, they would not still be in BUSINESS.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

BUT I have said this before my friends that have open shops have a much lower labor overhead than I do and their wages are close as are their benefits.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*Unionize*



brian john said:


> BUT I have said this before my friends that have open shops have a much lower labor overhead than I do and their wages are close as are their benefits.


Brian, you,know your expenses,but why is there disparity if the wages and benefits are so close? Take into consideration here that I am not your enemy...Just wondering. Thanks.

Your Friend
RIVETER


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## EDM (Nov 3, 2009)

brian john said:


> BUT I have said this before my friends that have open shops have a much lower labor overhead than I do and their wages are close as are their benefits.


Then why did you sign with the local if you could give your guys the same package for a lower cost without unionizing?


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*Edm*



EDM said:


> Then why did you sign with the local if you could give your guys the same package for a lower cost without unionizing?


I can't believe that I am with you on this question. And I'm not sure that I like it, either. Maybe there is some common ground for all of us.Give the guy a break, though; We can't know all of his circumstances.

RIVETER


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## EDM (Nov 3, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> I can't believe that I am with you on this question. And I'm not sure that I like it, either. Maybe there is some common ground for all of us.Give the guy a break, though; We can't know all of his circumstances.
> 
> RIVETER


I think it's time for you to switch back to trolling the power saver crap.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

EDM said:


> Then why did you sign with the local if you could give your guys the same package for a lower cost without unionizing?


I was union and I felt it was best for me, I would be a hypocrite to do anything less. I have standards and if I felt union was best why would I short my men? Maybe REWIRE can answer this one?


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## EDM (Nov 3, 2009)

brian john said:


> I was union and I felt it was best for me, I would be a hypocrite to do anything less. I have standards and if I felt union was best why would I short my men? Maybe REWIRE can answer this one?


As a contractor that is already giving the good wages and bennies, what more will the men get out of being union?


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*Unionize*



brian john said:


> I was union and I felt it was best for me, I would be a hypocrite to do anything less. I have standards and if I felt union was best why would I short my men? Maybe REWIRE can answer this one?


Brian, that is the best possible answer you could have given. Do your employees know that you feel this way? If you are that honest with them, and they know it, the hard part is over because if you do get a SLUG, every now and then you can kick him to the curb, and and there will be no complaints from anybody. Good luck with your business.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

RIVETER said:


> Brian, you,know your expenses,but why is there disparity if the wages and benefits are so close? Take into consideration here that I am not your enemy...Just wondering. Thanks.
> 
> Your Friend
> RIVETER


They pay their best men the best wages and the others are paid what they are worth based on skills and they get better health care cost, no added cost that is incurred with all the union adders.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

EDM said:


> As a contractor that is already giving the good wages and bennies, what more will the men get out of being union?


If and when I fold the men can take their bennies with them and not have to worry about losing anything.

When I first went in business many of my customers wanted union contractors now they could care less if a contractor is union or not.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*Unionize*



brian john said:


> If and when I fold the men can take their bennies with them and not have to worry about losing anything.
> 
> When I first went in business many of my customers wanted union contractors now they could care less if a contractor is union or not.


I am hoping that you do not "FOLD". Are you close to that? If so , let a few of us know..there is an outside chance that we can help.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

RIVETER said:


> I am hoping that you do not "FOLD". Are you close to that? If so , let a few of us know..there is an outside chance that we can help.


I have been in business 24 years and doing OK at this time. But one never knows could get hit by a bus tomorrow.


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## Power Tech (Aug 23, 2009)

westernexplorer said:


> Knowshorts,
> I don't disagree with what you have said. I agree that we should reward work. I also, understand the difference between an employer and an employee. I don't even blame employers for fighting for there positions or what they believe in. However, alot of employer's want it to be one-sided. It's ok for them to ban together, just not the workers. Would you say that is not true....? Would you say that most employers, if given the chance would over turn many labor laws in America...?


You said it, "employers". I do not have a factory with 1000's of workers. I am in the ditch and on the lift with them. I know what you are saying about big business and factory labor. Contractors are so regulated that if they do break the law it will be just a mater of time before it catches up with them.

Come on, the only thing I can discriminate against is smoking and tattoos.

I think the workers of the US are far more organized than businessmen. 

I do not think you comprehend at all the difference between being a contractor and an employee. A contractor has more rules to follow when it comes to the employee, than the employee has with the contractor.

The laws are geared for the employee.

The contractor RISKS his money and time gambling that he can do the job for a stated price. If it don't come in at that price he loses. You get a check either way, weekly.

Contractors get to wait for draws and have to sweat to make payroll.

After everybody else gets paid then the contractor gets paid.

Contractors are not standing shoulder to shoulder against you, they need you. Since they cannot threaten you with death they have to offer you money. 

More than once I have loaned my company money form my personal savings to pay the employees.

Technical workers are hard to find, and sometimes even harder to motivate.


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## shockme123 (May 13, 2009)

Toronto Sparky said:


> I truly believe the skilled trades in North America are being underrated.
> We are the best in the world..


I agree with that as well! :thumbsup:

But unlike North America, Europe doesn't have capitalist bastards that are in control of EVERYTHING. In Newfoundland the minimum wage is $9.75/hour, and most non-union shops will abide by that wage and pay no more. Some Journeyman are getting paid $12/hour, because the employer can get away with it, and this person is taking the beating just to feed his family.

Some contractors truly deserve the middle finger.


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

Hey Newfie, power to the people. Holy christ, you are a lost soul.


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## shockme123 (May 13, 2009)

oldman said:


> Hey Newfie, power to the people. Holy christ, you are a lost soul.


What do you mean by that? :laughing:


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## traveler (Sep 15, 2009)

Union is the best for one main reason.

When you are being wronged, someone has your back.

Contrary to what the anti-union guys on here will tell you.....there IS strength in numbers.

Keep in mind this is mainly a non-union/anti-union site. Every time you ask anything about the union, most of the "self identified rats" complete with the rat avatars will come running over here chiming in with what they "know are the facts" about the IBEW. Hell, I have already been called a Nazi for being in the union.:001_huh:

Go union. The apprenticeship is hell....but all the training is worth college credits, and you can easily springboard to a BS in E.E. if you so choose right after graduation.

~Joe


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

traveler said:


> Union is the best for one main reason.
> 
> When you are being wronged, someone has your back.
> 
> ...


I have worked both. And I have to agree with you. Given the chance, I would take a union job over a non-union job any day.
Keep in mind. It's been over 20 years since I had a ticket. I really do believe the ones that berate the union have never been a member. Once you have been a member nothing compares. And believe me, I have been comparing for many years. More years than I want to remember.


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

Actually, many who berate were once members and are now contractors. 

Problem with unions is that many are anti contractor. 

And the union bosses thrive on keeping the labor-management relationship as adversarial as possible. 

In good open shops you'll find more of a 2 way street. 

Just an observation.


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## running dummy (Mar 19, 2009)

traveler said:


> Union is the best for one main reason.
> 
> When you are being wronged, someone has your back.
> 
> ...


That right there is HUGE!! I am in the process of fulfilling the credit hours for my Associates which I will hopefully add on to get a Bachelors. I was already given 53 credit hours towards my Associates by completing the apprenticeship. :thumbup:


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## Thomps (Nov 27, 2008)

John Valdes said:


> I have worked both. And I have to agree with you. Given the chance, I would take a union job over a non-union job any day.
> Keep in mind. It's been over 20 years since I had a ticket. I really do believe the ones that berate the union have never been a member. Once you have been a member nothing compares. And believe me, I have been comparing for many years. More years than I want to remember.


But you have to remember that there are a lot of people out there who feel that the union, or a unionized environment isn't in their best interest, and that doesn't make them wrong. 

That is one of the key points that people have to remember, that there are benefits and limitation on both sides. If someone is planning their career path, only they can decide which is going to provide them with the opportunties they need to earn a living and achieve their goals.

It becomes frustrating, when someone who has opted to work in a merit/open shop workplace tells a pro-union peron about their decision, they are branded as stupid, or a scab or mis-informed.


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## traveler (Sep 15, 2009)

Thomps said:


> But you have to remember that there are a lot of people out there who feel that the union, or a unionized environment isn't in their best interest, and that doesn't make them wrong.
> 
> That is one of the key points that people have to remember, that there are benefits and limitation on both sides. If someone is planning their career path, only they can decide which is going to provide them with the opportunties they need to earn a living and achieve their goals.
> 
> It becomes frustrating, when someone who has opted to work in a merit/open shop workplace tells a pro-union peron about their decision, they are branded as stupid, or a scab or mis-informed.


I agree.

~Joe


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Power Tech said:


> Contractors are so regulated that if they do break the law it will be just a mater of time before it catches up with them.
> 
> *You mean the immigration laws, right? Every trade but MEP is guilty here, some places even MEP is **a lost cause.*
> 
> ...


You are probably a great guy to work for, but that's the exception.


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## e57 (Jun 5, 2009)

miller_elex said:


> *More organized? That's what owners like to tell the ill-informed who know not better to perpetuate the illusion. More organized than the Chamber of Commerce? The AGC, the ABC? The NECA? Give me a break.*


 You do know that the NECA and IBEW are basically one in the same? Right.... Despite what they tell you.... Ask down at the hall about the LMCC...


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## bward76 (Oct 7, 2009)

e57 said:


> You do know that the NECA and IBEW are basically one in the same? Right.... Despite what they tell you.... Ask down at the hall about the LMCC...


Wrong!!! Two completly seperate organizations with a contract between the two. I need to roll up my pants, it's getting a little deep.


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## JayH (Nov 13, 2009)

e57 said:


> You do know that the NECA and IBEW are basically one in the same? Right.... Despite what they tell you.... Ask down at the hall about the LMCC...


NECA and IBEW are not the same organization.

There are plenty of signatory contractors that are not affiliated with NECA.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*Unionize*

This is a very touchy subject, as we all know. I don't consider myself a better electrician because I am union. In some cases I think that I care more about the trade than others. I speak up when I see others doing something that I know not to be right. Has anyone worked on a metal stud building ...and has seen someone use two screws to fasten a box to the metal stud? That is just one instance of something that you know is incorrect, and you can bring it up in an UNION enviornment and not be afraid to lose your job. 
I am not disparaging any non-union people out there because I know that if you did not care about your work, you most likely would not get into a forum such as this.
I will never say anything bad about a person who is doing the best that he/she can for their family.



























t


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

oldman said:


> Actually, many who berate were once members and are now contractors.
> 
> Problem with unions is that many are anti contractor.
> 
> ...


 Well said.:thumbsup:


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> Has anyone worked on a metal stud building ...and has seen someone use two screws to fasten a box to the metal stud?


I've got to ask. How many screws is the proper amount? If the job is emt and bracket boxes, I use 2 tec screws. If it is mc and bracket boxes, I use 3 tec screws.

More often than not I find myself using slide brackets in which case I only need 2 screws to mount the box to the bracket.


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## JayH (Nov 13, 2009)

knowshorts said:


> I've got to ask. How many screws is the proper amount? If the job is emt and bracket boxes, I use 2 tec screws. If it is mc and bracket boxes, I use 3 tec screws.
> 
> More often than not I find myself using slide brackets in which case I only need 2 screws to mount the box to the bracket.


The proper amont needed is securely attached.


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## e57 (Jun 5, 2009)

bward76 said:


> Wrong!!! Two completly seperate organizations with a contract between the two. I need to roll up my pants, it's getting a little deep.


Contract?!? They're practically in bed together....


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## Power Tech (Aug 23, 2009)

John Valdes said:


> I have worked both. And I have to agree with you. Given the chance, I would take a union job over a non-union job any day.
> Keep in mind. It's been over 20 years since I had a ticket. I really do believe the ones that berate the union have never been a member. Once you have been a member nothing compares. And believe me, I have been comparing for many years. More years than I want to remember.


Even if the fringe is paid in cash?


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Power Tech said:


> Even if the fringe is paid in cash?


What you have said does not make sense...don't diminish what the man has said.


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## Power Tech (Aug 23, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> What you have said does not make sense...don't diminish what the man has said.


I gave you the benifit of the doubt for quite a while. I know now you are a jerk. 
:notworthy::whistling2:

That's rude to tell me what to do. What, you in love with him?

He can't speak for himself?


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## JayH (Nov 13, 2009)

e57 said:


> Contract?!? They're practically in bed together....


Jeez dude, that's like sayong every non-union contractor is in bed with ABC.

It just is complete misinformation.


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## e57 (Jun 5, 2009)

JayH said:


> It just is complete misinformation.


We can disagree... :thumbsup:


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## minibdr (Nov 11, 2009)

Love this post I should scan a copy of my check to go along with it.Last week worked 35 and 35 took home 3,300 $ and 1500 in bennies.lol and had sunday off.
_

I make above scale, and work 12 months.
*This is not true for MOST nonunion electricians. Who's your daddy?* 

Most of them only get scale, and most of them work 12 months.
*MOST nonunion electricians don't even know what "scale" is.* 

I keep what I make.
*Good for you. I pay 1% dues, but it's 100% tax deductable, so basically YOU pay my union dues. :laughing:* 

They pay dues.
*So, you don't knock over anthills whiole working in a hornet's nest... :whistling2:* 

I have employer supplied health care for myself.
*And all the others? Oh that's right, you're not concerned about them...* 

They have Union supplied care for the whole family.
I get paid holidays, vacation, sick days.
*My paid holiday check is $301.04, there are 10 holidays. *
*My vacations (5 weeks, 6 after 30 years) are paid, + $2500.00 to "enjoy" it...*
*We get 0 sick days. No work, no pay. *

They get what's on the check.
*They get what they get, 99 & 44/100ths % of the time a boatload LESS that any union worker earns.* 

I get OT for over 40.
They get OT over 8.
*I get OT for over 7 a day, or 35 hrs a week.*

I could go on and on, point is: it's subjective. It all depends on the part of this Once Great country that you live in and how well you market yourself. As it has been said, there is good and bad on both sides._


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

minibdr said:


> Love this post I should scan a copy of my check to go along with it.Last week worked 35 and 35 took home 3,300 $ and 1500 in bennies.lol and had sunday off.


I almost care. :no:

And who are you responding to? Why don't you quote instead of responding in list format? :001_huh:


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Peter D said:


> Why don't you quote instead of responding in list format? :001_huh:


Its' too complicated, the union is not here to hold his hand and show him how.:whistling2:


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## user5941 (Mar 16, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> Its' too complicated, the union is not here to hold his hand and show him how.:whistling2:


 So being shown How is a bad thing in the non union world ? I guess it makes sense you don't want the monkeys getting to smart or they might realize they can say "no".:jester:


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## bward76 (Oct 7, 2009)

Just to break a little bit misconception. In my local there are no paid holidays, sick days, or vacation days. No work, no Pay. 

By the way, travelers we have calls going into book 2 lately.


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## MOGAL (Nov 18, 2009)

Minuteman said:


> To many members, you be will view upon as an outsider, You didn't go through "the program" so, you are not a real brother.
> 
> This is not even 50% accurate in my world. I do not judge a fellow brother by whether they were organized in or not. If they are doing the work in a "workmanship type manner" they are my equal. Guys that are organized in can bring knowledge that I do not have. There are great & crappy electricians in both the union and non-union world.
> 
> ...


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Power Tech said:


> You said it, "employers". I do not have a factory with 1000's of workers. I am in the ditch and on the lift with them. I know what you are saying about big business and factory labor. Contractors are so regulated that if they do break the law it will be just a mater of time before it catches up with them.
> 
> *HA1 Contractors break the laws all the time, and rarely get caught. Only the most blatant and aggregious are ever prosecuted, and it rarely involves jail time. *
> 
> ...


*Workers are easy and simple to motivate. But the less you pay the tougher it gets. *


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## Power Tech (Aug 23, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> *Workers are easy and simple to motivate. But the less you pay the tougher it gets. *


Oh go mow a lawn---Dude---LSparky. :tt2::tt2::tt2:

Your statements show you have no idea what the hell your talking about.:laughing:


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

LJSMITH1 said:


> I am not one to get embroiled in one of these discussions, but let's take a higher level view of whats going on....
> 
> *retired 7373*: Do you or your wife shop for the lowest price around for things that you purchase with your hard-earned money? (i.e. at your local supermarket, your local retail shops, etc.) How about when buying a new car? An new home? A new computer? Be honest.
> 
> ...


 
*Very nice post, but it reeks of rampant unregulated capatilism being the end-all be-all best thing for an entire society, which it definately is not. *

*I do not shop for the best price on most things worth mentioning. I will not but K-Mart's 48" LCD TV for $699.00 because I know it will not last as long as My Sony Bravias. I could have bought a Dodge Ram pickup (I think they're really sweet) but chose the Ford for it's better ride and track record. *

*Cheaper isn't always better.*

*Shopping for the lowest price on an exact same item simply forces sellers to be more efficient. The ones with the lowest overhead win. *

*There are cars that have higher sticker prices but will trade in at such a better rate that owning them is actually cheaper than buying a less expensive car to begin with.*


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

(Oldman) 
Actually, many who berate were once members and are now contractors. 

Problem with unions is that many are anti contractor. 

*Labor and management have opposing goals.*

And the union bosses thrive on keeping the labor-management relationship as adversarial as possible.

*Read: "don't have to back down."* 

In good open shops you'll find more of a 2 way street.

*Yes, both of them. :laughing:* 

Just an observation.


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## Power Tech (Aug 23, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> (Oldman)
> Actually, many who berate were once members and are now contractors.
> 
> Problem with unions is that many are anti contractor.
> ...


Go into business. Then after a couple of years look at your statements.

Then you will see you were full of ****.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Power Tech said:


> Oh go mow a lawn---Dude---LSparky. :tt2::tt2::tt2:
> 
> Your statements show you have no idea what the hell your talking about.:laughing:


Which must be why you took the time to quote and debate my entire rebuttal...

Typical rat - always doing a 1/2 assed job.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Power Tech said:


> Go into business. Then after a couple of years look at your statements.
> 
> Then you will see you were full of ****.


No. what I will see is the "other side" of the OPINION. Which is of course, as previously stated, you'd make more money if I made less. Your standard of living would be better if employees accepted a lower standard.


----------



## Power Tech (Aug 23, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Which must be why you took the time to quote and debate my entire rebuttal...
> 
> Typical rat - always doing a 1/2 assed job.


Developed Nations? You mean socialist nations, comrade?


----------



## Power Tech (Aug 23, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> No. what I will see is the "other side" of the OPINION. Which is of course, as previously stated, you'd make more money if I made less. Your standard of living would be better if employees accepted a lower standard.


Wrong again, my ex employees call me and like me. I have paid them well and will again when I can.


----------



## Power Tech (Aug 23, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> *Workers are easy and simple to motivate. But the less you pay the tougher it gets. *


No, you pay them more and you get the same as yesterday.

No matter how much you tickle their butt.:whistling2:


----------



## traveler (Sep 15, 2009)

If you, as an owner really cared about your guys and wanted to give them bennies and good pay, then you wouldn't be so anti-union.

The only ones who are anti-union are the ones that REALLY don't want to offer a good package.....they want to be able to screw the guys over and get away with it.

If you're not like that, then fine.....but if you're not, then why would you be against something that you purport to be all in favor of?

BTW, like it or not, if 30% or greater of your workforce wnats to be union, BY LAW it happens. All you can do is close the shop. Again, it's the LAW.

Think it can't happen? PHFFT! Happens all the time, and you can't stop it, MR. Moneybags....IT'S THE LAW!!!

Are you a greedy owner, or are you looking for fairness and equity?

You're views on the union will show you're TRUE motives.

Same can be said for guns and politicians. The only politicians that wnat to get rid of the guns are the ones that KNOW what they are doing will not go over well.

if you wnat what's best for your guys, yet are against an organization that insures that they are well taken care of, what's that say about you?

Hypocrite perhaps?

If you are anti-union and an owner, then you are anti-worker....if the truth hurts...too damn bad. 

The dem's are in office, and when push comes to shove, they will side with the workers because they need their votes. 

~Joe


----------



## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

this thread is taking a turn into Forest Gump land...

IF, and that is the key word, IF, the unions provided what they claimed - well trained men - it would be a simple decision...

but, when you have to pay every man the same rate, and are not allowed to expect the same production, something is wrong...

the misinformation is laughable. But, please feel free to hold righteous indignation towards anyone who doesn't believe that you are entitled to anything you don't earn.

as lawn guy has already stated, labor and management have different goals - well, in the union world they do...

why would i possibly want to rely on men who have a different goal than me? that's just dumb....


----------



## traveler (Sep 15, 2009)

oldman said:


> this thread is taking a turn into Forest Gump land...
> 
> IF, and that is the key word, IF, the unions provided what they claimed - well trained men - it would be a simple decision...
> 
> ...


Wrong.

Union men are "laid off" and "Fired" regularly. If they can't perform, then they lose their job.

The IBEW even has a "no strike clause".

:laughing:

~Joe


----------



## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

You must be from Kansas.


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## Power Tech (Aug 23, 2009)

oldman said:


> this thread is taking a turn into Forest Gump land...
> 
> IF, and that is the key word, IF, the unions provided what they claimed - well trained men - it would be a simple decision...
> 
> ...



I was thinking the same thing. 

A guy gets in the union and it is not teamwork to make money for the contractor. 

It is hate and war. Who wants or needs that garbage.:confused1:


----------



## Power Tech (Aug 23, 2009)

traveler said:


> If you, as an owner really cared about your guys and wanted to give them bennies and good pay, then you wouldn't be so anti-union.
> 
> The only ones who are anti-union are the ones that REALLY don't want to offer a good package.....they want to be able to screw the guys over and get away with it.
> 
> ...





Okay Joe, you work your can off for 8 hours, another man produces what you do in 2 hours. 

He gets the same pay as you. Is that the fairness and equality you speak of?

Non union has an unlimited pay scale. Is that is why you are mad?

I pay according to ability and how much the man can produce. I did not like being in the union having men tell me to slow down.

I caught and fired 3 union men for cornering and threatening another man who is working too hard.

To get paid for what you are worth. What a concept.

Oh yah, I do not think it is right to pay a man of lesser ability more just because he has kids. The stare of Marxism.


----------



## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

Entitlement, whether welfare or wages, is destroying this country.


----------



## Power Tech (Aug 23, 2009)

traveler said:


> If you, as an owner really cared about your guys and wanted to give them bennies and good pay, then you wouldn't be so anti-union.
> 
> The only ones who are anti-union are the ones that REALLY don't want to offer a good package.....they want to be able to screw the guys over and get away with it.
> 
> ...


About the insurance thing. That is a sin.

According to Jesus we are to take no thought of the morrow. 

You have no faith and are a living Hypocrisy. 

No faith in finding the work yourself, you must rely on someone else to hunt the food down. 

You are the men after I drag the animal back to camp that just want as much meat as you can grab. You could care less what somebody else has to do to get work for you, but we are supposed to understand all of your cares and concerns.


----------



## Power Tech (Aug 23, 2009)

oldman said:


> Entitlement, whether welfare or wages, is destroying this country.


Oldman for president!

No more welfare? No more income tax.

That would get my vote.:thumbup:


----------



## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

I'll do it. Hey, can you photoshop me a US birth certificate?


Entitlement breeds apathy and laziness. 

I speak for no one but me. I didn't go into business for the purpose of supporting anyone but me and my family. 

As we've grown, we've needed to hire employees. If they work with me to reach my goals, we work with them to reach their goals. But when they feel my job is to make their life better, at the detriment to my own, there is a problem and they need to go. 

I am not a democrat and I am not the welfare agency. Earn your keep.


----------



## Power Tech (Aug 23, 2009)

oldman said:


> I'll do it. Hey, can you photoshop me a US birth certificate?
> 
> 
> Entitlement breeds apathy and laziness.
> ...



Welfare and entitlements weaken the personality of the person who accepts them. 

Personal initiative is food for the personally. Accepting welfare is starving the personality and leads to low self esteem.

It is like feeding the strong of the litter and starving the runt. 

We do not have a democracy. This is a representative form of government.

I wish we could put everything up for a vote. 

Who voted in welfare and income tax. 

We cannot even count votes directly for the President?

Electoral collage? What's that for? Other than to put who they want in if the votes (people) do not agree.

Instead of applying themselves and relying on their own abilities and initiative it has created ghettos and an entire generation of gimmie, gimmie gang members. 

A perfect base of people for the war machine (military).


----------



## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Power Tech said:


> About the insurance thing. That is a sin.
> 
> According to Jesus we are to take no thought of the morrow.
> 
> ...


 
Okay, so I should believe you because you still believe in Santa Clause?

Get real. This was never about insurance, start another thread in off-topics.


----------



## Power Tech (Aug 23, 2009)

miller_elex said:


> Okay, so I should believe you because you still believe in Santa Clause?
> 
> Get real. This was never about insurance, start another thread in off-topics.


If you read the post he views the union as an insurance to make sure the employer keeps in line.

Get real? Be like you. :no: 

No thank you.

Belief is not necessary where truth is allowed to prevail.


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

traveler said:


> If you, as an owner really cared about your guys and wanted to give them bennies and good pay, then you wouldn't be so anti-union.


WRONG- I do work for several shops than pay equal or better that union and have long term employees. The owners do not want the union hassle.



> The only ones who are anti-union are the ones that REALLY don't want to offer a good package.....they want to be able to screw the guys over and get away with it.


WRONG see above



> If you're not like that, then fine.....but if you're not, then why would you be against something that you purport to be all in favor of?


Hassle, equal pay for not equal work, union lawyers.........



> BTW, like it or not, if 30% or greater of your workforce wants to be union, BY LAW it happens. All you can do is close the shop. Again, it's the LAW.


But the union share is shrinking in the private sector.MMMMMMMMMMMMM



> Think it can't happen? PHFFT! Happens all the time, and you can't stop it, MR. Moneybags....IT'S THE LAW!!!


Dream on



> Are you a greedy owner, or are you looking for fairness and equity?


Greedy what is greedy wanting to keep what is yours, You need a job with the Big "O". Who decides fairness and equity YOU. Not that is laughable.




> Same can be said for guns and politicians. The only politicians that want to get rid of the guns are the ones that KNOW what they are doing will not go over well.


You need to explain this.


----------



## LJSMITH1 (May 4, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> *Very nice post, but it reeks of rampant unregulated capatilism being the end-all be-all best thing for an entire society, which it definately is not. *
> 
> *I do not shop for the best price on most things worth mentioning. I will not but K-Mart's 48" LCD TV for $699.00 because I know it will not last as long as My Sony Bravias. I could have bought a Dodge Ram pickup (I think they're really sweet) but chose the Ford for it's better ride and track record. *
> 
> ...


Unfortunately if what you say is true, you are the minority with regards to purchasing items like TV's or other "consumables". Purchasing a car is much more 'emotional' for many folks, and typically involves much larger sums of money. Because of that, many folks think looks and other similar requirements are more important than just cost alone. 

However, when folks buy electronics, food (i.e. store brands), tires, etc. etc.. they are typically shopping for price FIRST. The selections abound and there is intense competition. 

...and you are right...cheaper is not always better...but many consumers don't care. Which is why we have various 'grades' of products. There is something for just about anyone. In other societies, there is only one or two options, and if you don't like either one.. too bad.:blink:

In as far as 'unregulated capitalism', what do you mean by that? We already have thousands of laws and regulations on the books that help regulate the capitalism that our society now enjoys. Its just a matter of enforcement, not the addition of even more regulation.:no:


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Perception is everything.



oldman said:


> this thread is taking a turn into Forest Gump land...
> 
> IF, and that is the key word, IF, the unions provided what they claimed - well trained men - it would be a simple decision...
> 
> ...


*My goal is to make some of their money MY money. Your goal is to make some of their money and my money YOUR money. *


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Power Tech said:


> I was thinking the same thing.
> 
> A guy gets in the union and it is not teamwork to make money for the contractor.
> 
> It is hate and war. Who wants or needs that garbage.:confused1:


*You couldn't be more wrong. If the contractors don't make money, they're no longer contractors. The issue here is really about the split... how much should the contractor make and how much is the skilled labor, without which a contractor could not exist, make?*

*A mid-size contractor send 3 electricians out to do 3 separate and very similar 200a upgrades. One does it in 8 hours. Another does it in 8 with 1 hour overtime, and the 3rd did it in 6 hours with a helper. You would think their pay rates accurately reflect the differences in production... but in reality, issues like which man is married with kids, which man was hired when the shop was doing better and hurting for good help, and which man really undervalued himself and was desperate for work plays a much greater role in who gets paid what. * 

*A few months later, the shop is hurting for work. The right thing to do is ROW a couple of electricians, but instead the owner tells everyone there's an across the board 3-4 or 5 dollar an hour wage cut for everybody but the greenies, and some people will be asked to sit home 1 possibly 2 days a week. *

*With this, everyone grudgingly accepts as the owner now realizes higher profits despite the loss of work, takes home the same draw as when the shop was busting at the seams, then gets on ElectricianTalk.com and crows about how he's such an amazing risk-taker without whom nobody would have a job... *


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## Power Tech (Aug 23, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Perception is everything.
> 
> 
> 
> *My goal is to make some of their money MY money. Your goal is to make some of their money and my money YOUR money. *


And your perception is flawed. There is still time for you to change though.:whistling2:

Figure it out bonehead.

There is plenty of money out there for all of us.:thumbup:

If you would knock off the nonsense and help out instead of putting up resistance we would all make more money.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

(Power Tech)

Okay Joe, you work your can off for 8 hours, another man produces what you do in 2 hours. 

He gets the same pay as you. Is that the fairness and equality you speak of?

*Doubtful any man can do in 2 what others do in 8. Even if this senerio was true... in the nonunion sector are you saying that a man doing 4x the work of another is paid 4x as much as well? THIS is the problem with claims that the felxible payscale is fairer. It leaves the judgment call to the person who is least interested in paying anyone more. What is more likely to happen is the guy producing 4x less will get a paycut. *

Non union has an unlimited pay scale. Is that is why you are mad?

*I've yet to meet ANY nonunion electrician's employee earning anything close to union scale.*

I pay according to ability and how much the man can produce. I did not like being in the union having men tell me to slow down.

*Really? I rather liked that aspect, and I can tell you - my body is thanking me. Often it's the right thing to do because when you look at the big picture (most people can't see past their little world and their own little issues, or even look towards tomorrow) I've yet to see a 50 year old in a service van or a contractor's truck - or roping a house, or carrying a bundle of conduit on a deck, they all seem to be in their late 20's- early 30's... but NEVER 45 or 50 or 55... Why is that? * 

I caught and fired 3 union men for cornering and threatening another man who is working too hard.

*I highly doubt that.*

To get paid for what you are worth. What a concept.

*And to let the boss decide worth... what a folly!*

Oh yah, I do not think it is right to pay a man of lesser ability more just because he has kids. The stare of Marxism.

*That might be what you say, but it happens all the time. I've seen men laid off (well, not actually laid off but "let go" as in the nonunion way of firing a person so they can't collect unemployment insurance) and chosen because they were not married and did not have kids. *


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## Power Tech (Aug 23, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> *You couldn't be more wrong. If the contractors don't make money, they're no longer contractors. The issue here is really about the split... how much should the contractor make and how much is the skilled labor, without which a contractor could not exist, make?*
> 
> *A mid-size contractor send 3 electricians out to do 3 separate and very similar 200a upgrades. One does it in 8 hours. Another does it in 8 with 1 hour overtime, and the 3rd did it in 6 hours with a helper. You would think their pay rates accurately reflect the differences in production... but in reality, issues like which man is married with kids, which man was hired when the shop was doing better and hurting for good help, and which man really undervalued himself and was desperate for work plays a much greater role in who gets paid what. *
> 
> ...


I still put my tools on and kick butt. I love to work and enjoy working circles around knuckle heads like you. I earn my money and deserve every penny.

Go out on your own, see if you can make it. I doubt you have the courage.:no:

In my book you are a coward looking for excuses as to why you can't make it.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Entitlement, whether welfare or wages or corporate bonuses or draws or golden parachutes, is destroying this country.

*Fixed that for ys Oldman!*


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

(LJSMITH1) Unfortunately if what you say is true, you are the minority with regards to purchasing items like TV's or other "consumables". Purchasing a car is much more 'emotional' for many folks, and typically involves much larger sums of money. Because of that, many folks think looks and other similar requirements are more important than just cost alone. 

*I agree, a car is a bad example because many buy what they like, or have always wanted, like clothes it can be more of a decision based on emotion and personality than purely financial. *

However, when folks buy electronics, food (i.e. store brands), tires, etc. etc.. they are typically shopping for price FIRST. The selections abound and there is intense competition. 

*And that's great - but should the winner of that competition be the company that pays off the books, cheats on taxes, and illegally disposes of the the waste oil and the used tires? *

...and you are right...cheaper is not always better...but many consumers don't care. Which is why we have various 'grades' of products. There is something for just about anyone. In other societies, there is only one or two options, and if you don't like either one.. too bad.:blink:


In as far as 'unregulated capitalism', what do you mean by that? We already have thousands of laws and regulations on the books that help regulate the capitalism that our society now enjoys. Its just a matter of enforcement, not the addition of even more regulation.:no:[/quote]

*Where do you think all that regulation came from? DO you think the banks demanded usury laws? No. But they did demand the repeal of usury laws, got it, and now all you hear all over the radio is companys touting their get-out-of-debt programs! *


----------



## Thomps (Nov 27, 2008)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> (Power Tech)
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Selective observation on your part per-chance?
There are many merit shops that pay close to or on par to union rates. 


How does someone get laid off/let go in such a way that they are not able to collect U.I. ?


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Power Tech said:


> And your perception is flawed. There is still time for you to change though.:whistling2:
> 
> Figure it out bonehead.
> 
> ...


*There's no need to get personal and start name-calling, is there?*


----------



## Power Tech (Aug 23, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Entitlement, whether welfare or wages or corporate bonuses or draws or golden parachutes, is destroying this country.
> 
> *Fixed that for ys Oldman!*



How jealous can you get?

That is funny, your job is probably corporate welfare. 

That is the jobs the union likes to get. 

Because they could not compete, having to pay your fake scale.

You would be the first one to grab at the parachute.

And probably the first one to loot my house and the local store.

Get those capitalist pigs you commie.:laughing:


----------



## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Entitlement, whether welfare or wages or corporate bonuses or draws or golden parachutes, is destroying this country.
> 
> *Fixed that for ys Oldman!*


thanks...i actually agree with you...because usually the parachutes aren't earned either...


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Power Tech said:


> I still put my tools on and kick butt. I love to work and enjoy working circles around knuckle heads like you. I earn my money and deserve every penny.
> 
> Go out on your own, see if you can make it. I doubt you have the courage.:no:
> 
> In my book you are a coward looking for excuses as to why you can't make it.


*These a re pretty bold statements from someone who has never met me or seen me work. I don't wear the tools anymore - never have since joining the union as toolbelts are only efficient on small jobbing type work. *

*If whatever you're doing in a production-based job requires more than a couple of essencial hand tools in your back pocket and a toolbag close by, and a marker in your pocket, and maybe a hammer holster (for you residential ropers) then you're killing your back and wearing yourself down unnecessarily. *

*No wonder you never see 50 year old nonunion electricians. They're finding switchplates for you and cutting wire and cleaning up asile 3 at the Home Depot.*

*As for you other thoughts - not going out on my own is the smartest move I never made. But then again, where I'm from one needn't go it alone to earn a damn good living, why is it you couldn't make it working for others? I guess you're proving my point and don't like it one bit. *


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Thomps said:


> Selective observation on your part per-chance?
> There are many merit shops that pay close to or on par to union rates.
> 
> 
> How does someone get laid off/let go in such a way that they are not able to collect U.I. ?


*Not at all Thomps. I've organized, I've worked nonunion here and in NYC and I can assure you, no worker in the field comes close to union wages. None that I've met. *

*Further, on a nonunion project you're likely to see one or 2 journeymen or "mechanics" as some call themselves, and the entire rest of the crew is a mish-mosh of helpers (some call themselves apprentices though they've no idea what an apprentice actually is) and "junior mechanics." What they all fail to see is the ratio that surrounds them - where is the future for 10 helpers working for a contractor when there's only 2 at the top of the payscale? *

*This is part and parcel to the distaste many nonunion contractors have for unions - that we insist electrical work is done by electricians, not bottom-of-the-barrel cheap labor with no future. *

*So for all those posters claiming "I know a shop that pay's it's electricians about... or around... or even MORE than union scale" I can guarantee you that electrician is considered a foreman, is laying out work and instructions for unskilled laborers, and the RATIO within this supposed mystery shop nobody ever cares to name is about 10 to 15 underpaid unskilled hacks who will never advance to each guy who actually knows what he's doing. *


----------



## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> ]o wonder you never see 50 year old nonunion electricians. They're finding switchplates for you and cutting wire and cleaning up asile 3 at the Home Depot.


I know 50 year old non-union electricians.


----------



## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> *that we insist electrical work is done by electricians, not bottom-of-the-barrel cheap labor with no future. *
> ]


The union has it's fair share of "bottom-of-the barrel" labor, only it's expensive not cheap.


----------



## Power Tech (Aug 23, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> *These a re pretty bold statements from someone who has never met me or seen me work. I don't wear the tools anymore - never have since joining the union as toolbelts are only efficient on small jobbing type work. *
> 
> *If whatever you're doing in a production-based job requires more than a couple of essencial hand tools in your back pocket and a toolbag close by, and a marker in your pocket, and maybe a hammer holster (for you residential ropers) then you're killing your back and wearing yourself down unnecessarily. *
> 
> ...



You said it correctly, since you got in the union, no more wearing tools for you. You couldn't keep up running conduit or anything else. 

Just a simple thing like running 3/4" EMT. You have to have a pencil or marker, connectors, couplings, straps, screws, tape measure, reamer, channel locks, etc... You would loose bad, your pockets would get dirty and you would leave your tools all over the place for everyone to trip on.

I know the whole story, I live it. You must think I'm new at this.

The last union guy I worked with went into the attic. I said go check that box. He said, "gotta screw driver", then "you got a tester". 

I do not look up to you, therefor I do not even care if you like me, therefor I have no reason to lie.


----------



## Power Tech (Aug 23, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> *These a re pretty bold statements from someone who has never met me or seen me work. I don't wear the tools anymore - never have since joining the union as toolbelts are only efficient on small jobbing type work. *
> 
> *If whatever you're doing in a production-based job requires more than a couple of essencial hand tools in your back pocket and a toolbag close by, and a marker in your pocket, and maybe a hammer holster (for you residential ropers) then you're killing your back and wearing yourself down unnecessarily. *
> 
> ...


Oh yah, whatever you do, don't wear yourself out.

Oh I made it working for others, but knew it was temporary. I always worked hard, wore my tools and didn't goof off.

I was the top earner for a service company. 

I am the best, that is why I cannot work for someone else that is not.


----------



## JayH (Nov 13, 2009)

MF Dagger said:


> The union has it's fair share of "bottom-of-the barrel" labor, only it's expensive not cheap.


 
You are absolutely correct.

But a good foreman recognizes this immediately and sends the overpaid worker back to the hall. 

That foreman is looking out for himself and his employer.

In my local we have quite a few of these well trained foreman who manage manpower and material so well that the union sector is able to compete with the non-union sector outside of the "government welfare" jobs.

Incidently "government welfare" jobs are almost the only thing happening in this area since the banks still are not lending to the private sector even though Goldman Sachs recently announced record profits with their own "government welfare" monies (TARP.)


----------



## Thomps (Nov 27, 2008)

Lawn - bear with me here, it's hard to respond on a handheld. 

Just because you have not experienced an open shop with rates comparable to a union shop, doesn't mean there aren't any. 


I can't relate to your second point. Ontario has strict enforcement of the TQAA (trades qualification and apprenticeship act) which outlines who can work in the trade. Only licensed electricians and registered apprentices can partake on electrical work. This is enforced by the ministry of labour and the ministry of training colleges and universities. Further more, the TQAA outlines how many apprentices an employer can have on staff at any one time. Ironically, this ratio isn't enforcable to union shops, as apprentices are registered to the hall and not the contractor. 

Ontario contractors are fighting to have this ratio adjusted from 3:1 (three electricians to one apprentice) to 1:1, a move that is being opposed by the union. 

So considering your arguement, you can't guarantee anything. 


I am still curious about laying off employees in such a matter that they can't collect UI?????


----------



## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

MF Dagger said:


> I know 50 year old non-union electricians.


Usually they are called Contractors.


----------



## paul d. (Jul 13, 2008)

i'm a 55 y.o. non- union electrician. dont do the heavy stuff no more. same co. for 15 yrs. same people for 26 yrs. :thumbsup:


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## JayH (Nov 13, 2009)

paul d. said:


> i'm a 55 y.o. non- union electrician. dont do the heavy stuff no more. same co. for 15 yrs. same people for 26 yrs. :thumbsup:


 
That's quite a stint. Congratulations, I hope, are in order.


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

JayH said:


> You are absolutely correct.
> 
> But a good foreman recognizes this immediately and sends the overpaid worker back to the hall.
> 
> ...


And that is the way it should be.


----------



## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

I have over 10 guys that are over 50, one if them is in his 60s and last year another retired.

Some of those older guys work circles around the younger guys, and the guy in his 60s is the best layout man I have had.

Sometimes slow but steady and CORRECT is a lot faster than elbows and assholes and a pile of bent up pipe. Showing up on time every day and putting in 8 for 8 without complaint means a hell of a lot too.

Sometimes the older guys are fast and steady too. Pair them up with a good apprentice and that experience pays dividends and you get a well trained hand out of the deal. 

The guys working at Home Depot are there for a reason, and it ain't for being old. Once again Lawn Guy could not find a clue unless the hall told him where to look.


----------



## Power Tech (Aug 23, 2009)

JayH said:


> You are absolutely correct.
> 
> But a good foreman recognizes this immediately and sends the overpaid worker back to the hall.
> 
> ...


Why is it that a good forman is hard to find. My dream would be to find a few good forman with the decesion making capability to run a profitable job, so as to free up my time to go for more work.

I am flexible and may become signatory. I may have to eat tofu-cheese. You know, I am a greedy capitalist pig, I will go where the money is. Oink, Oink.:thumbup::laughing::laughing:


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## JayH (Nov 13, 2009)

Power Tech said:


> Why is it that a good forman is hard to find. My dream would be to find a few good forman with the decesion making capability to run a profitable job, so as to free up my time to go for more work.
> 
> I am flexible and may become signatory. I may have to eat tofu-cheese. You know, I am a greedy capitalist pig, I will go where the money is. Oink, Oink.:thumbup::laughing::laughing:


You're in an area where training and mentality is slightly different than where I am.

I think if I were running a business in your area...I would...I'm at a loss.

Good help is hard to find in your area either side of the fence.

Ever thought about moving?


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

They are pretty hard to find on the inside too, and the really really good ones know they can make more on the open market and get paid top dollar by non-union shops.

The last time I put a call in for a foreman they sent me shop steward...


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## Power Tech (Aug 23, 2009)

PhatElvis said:


> I have over 10 guys that are over 50, one if them is in his 60s and last year another retired.
> 
> Some of those older guys work circles around the younger guys, and the guy in his 60s is the best layout man I have had.
> 
> ...



That is good! This man is what the US is all about.

Great points! I do hav a lot to learn.:notworthy:


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## JayH (Nov 13, 2009)

PhatElvis said:


> They are pretty hard to find on the inside too, and the really really good ones know they can make more on the open market and get paid top dollar by non-union shops.
> 
> The last time I put a call in for a foreman they sent me shop steward...


We have the benefit of Foreman Call By Name. We have a membership (for the most part) that strives to produce a quality product for the contractor and the customer. It is win win for everyone involved.

On my last crew the hall wanted to put a steward on the job. I asked my most productive journeyman to be the steward and he accepted. The hall was happy with him and it was a not an adverserial relationship at any point.

The stewards job is also to make sure that the employees are holding up _*their*_ end of the CBA.


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## Power Tech (Aug 23, 2009)

JayH said:


> You're in an area where training and mentality is slightly different than where I am.
> 
> I think if I were running a business in your area...I would...I'm at a loss.
> 
> ...


Yes, but I love it here.


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

JayH said:


> We have the benefit of Foreman Call By Name. We have a membership (for the most part) that strives to produce a quality product for the contractor and the customer. It is win win for everyone involved.


That only works if you know who to call...



> The stewards job is also to make sure that the employees are holding up _*their*_ end of the CBA.


LOL...Spit... ***there goes coffee out my nose*** cough.... ahahahahaha yeah right. I guess I never met a steward like that.


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## JayH (Nov 13, 2009)

PhatElvis said:


> LOL...Spit... ***there goes coffee out my nose*** cough.... ahahahahaha yeah right. I guess I never met a steward like that.


I know. But that is a description of his duties.

I'm lucky to be in a local that understands the importance of the contractor succeeding.


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## JayH (Nov 13, 2009)

BTW, It is also your foreman's responsibility to inform your steward of his responsibilities. When you have a diligent foreman with good documentation skills and he looks out for your interests, then you will be golden.


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

JayH said:


> BTW, It is also your foreman's responsibility to inform your steward of his responsibilities. When you have a diligent foreman with good documentation skills and he looks out for your interests, then you will be golden.


With all due respect I could write a book about what a good foreman is and does, in fact have written that job description which is almost a book.

A good foreman is your most valuable asset, they are gold, and when I run out of work, I will pay my best foremen to sit at home until I find work. They are worth that much to me. Right now, I have 3 first class foreman and the rest are a LONG ways off from being on their level. I had 4 but one just retired and the only one close to taking his place I fired for stealing copper.

If IBEW could produce real leadership and lots of it, we would not even be talking right now, because this whole thread would be pointless.


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## JayH (Nov 13, 2009)

PhatElvis said:


> With all due respect I could write a book about what a good foreman is and does, in fact have written that job description which is almost a book.
> 
> A good foreman is your most valuable asset, they are gold, and when I run out of work, I will pay my best foremen to sit at home until I find work. They are worth that much to me. Right now, I have 3 first class foreman and the rest are a LONG ways off from being on their level. I had 4 but one just retired and the only one close to taking his place I fired for stealing copper.
> 
> If IBEW could produce real leadership and lots of it, we would not even be talking right now, because this whole thread would be pointless.


Every successful contrator I have worked for has a Foreman's manual. You're on the right track.

Re Copper: I've never understood why the membership is entitled to something the contractor payed for. All of my rabbit, unless otherwise directed by the owner, goes back to the shop.

Re Leadership: The IBEW has a choice. Put up or shut up. In our area non-union contractors are capable of raising capital to be competitive on many of the largest projects. Our leadership has elected to evolve and is competitve on almost every level.

I believe the IO is evolving. I watched a video (which I could not locate on the web) from the President of IBEW.

In the video Edwin Hill states that 85% of our membership is 8 for 8 quality installers. 10% are top echelon performers. 5% are deadbeats. Get them off the job. They hurt morale and the bottom line. (The percentages are from memory but reasonably accurate.)

The IBEW will have to evolve if it wishes to survive.


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## e57 (Jun 5, 2009)

Power Tech said:


> Why is it that a good forman is hard to find. My dream would be to find a few good forman with the decesion making capability to run a profitable job, so as to free up my time to go for more work.


1st - I'm not willing to relocate (  kidding) - BUT my advise would be to BUILD what you want - rather than trying to find it. You'll have a hard time trying to weed out the weak and the hot-air balloons. IMO it is easier to find one or a few of the heap that show ambition on their own, and then offer mentorship and training to be the superstar you want. Get them to meet you half way... Step them up gradually, by deligating more authority over time and correct as required... Look into some PM courses - not that they need to go that direction, but CSI formated spec reading, the RFI proccess, site documentation and contract compliance are all important for the making of a good Foreman... Some work on the technical side of leadership is also a good start.... I could go on but I expect mindless ridcule... And since it is way off topic here....


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## traveler (Sep 15, 2009)

brian john said:


> WRONG- *I do work for several shops than pay equal or better that union* and have long term employees. The owners do not want the union hassle.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You need to make up your mind...either you are the owner of a union shop on here, or you are a non-union hand.

The only ones who really don't like the union are the owners, and the guys that secretly tried to join the union and were sent away.

I can understand a man that works for a living, but I'll never understand a man who wants to work for less. Why? Becaseu you liket he boss? As soon as work slows down, you're ass is on the road.

the simple fact is....that with a union you have to act decent....without a union, you can do as you see fit. That is good for you, but $hitty for the hands.

Any man who willingly works for less than he can get is stupid. you only have so many years you can do this work. Working for peanuts is a suckers game.

Explaing the guns statement. Okay....guns keep politicians under control....unions keep Carnegie type greedy owners under control. 

the only ones who can get their feelings hurt over this are the guys who want ALL for me,me,me and screw the guys who are doing the actual work that brings the money in. 

Go look out in your parking lot. If all your men are driving clunkers but you have a new BMW....what's that mean? Sounds to me, like those men need to ORGANIZE.


Being successful and prosperous is GREAT. Sicne you wnat to being Christianity into it, I beleive Jesus would tell you to spread the wealth around a bit more than you are.

What part of "you may fire non productive union workers" do you NOT understand?

The REAL goal of the non-union shopps is to get rid of the union......right now they have to COMPETE with the union wage wise to keep anyone working for them. No union, no competition, and the wages will go WAY DOWN.

Gotta be careful when you are a foreman.....karma is a real b1tch. Just becaseu you are the foreman on this job dosen't mean you will be on the next. You start acting like a shop rocket, you reputation will be destroyed, and you will get payback....count on it.

~Joe


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

traveler said:


> You need to make up your mind...either you are the owner of a union shop on here, or you are a non-union hand.


No I don't, I am allowed (for the time being) to have my own thoughts formed by what I see and know. A process you seem incapable of.



> The only ones who really don't like the union are the owners, and the guys that secretly tried to join the union and were sent away.


Do you live in a bubble or are you just blinded by union fervor? What about the GOOD men turned away in favor of a cousin or son? What about the hard worker that knows nothing of the union or can't get in that is called a rat, has his job picketed so he can't work or worse? 



> . Why? Becaseu you liket he boss?.


What to heck does this mean?




> Explaing the guns statement. Okay....guns keep politicians under control....unions keep Carnegie type greedy owners under control.


Could you form a complete thought or are you toking?



> the only ones who can get their feelings hurt over this are the guys who want ALL for me,me,me and screw the guys who are doing the actual work that brings the money in.


Actually this should be a two way street. YOU SEEM TO BE AS BAD AS THE OWNERS YOUI RANT ABOUT. You are the problem, with the Carnegie types. You are what the unions needs to shed. Then again maybe you are really intelligent and are just trying to stir the pot with some less than insightful thoughts?



> Go look out in your parking lot. If all your men are driving clunkers but you have a new BMW....what's that mean? Sounds to me, like those men need to ORGANIZE.


All my men drive equal or better cars than me, all but one has a Harley or other bike, I don't, most have power boats, I own kayaks. Plus I only buy, Fords Chevy's and Dodge vehicles, no BWM for me.

And so what if I did drive a nicer car I invested time, money and sweat into MY BUSINESS. I assume you want to redistribute the wealth?



> Being successful and prosperous is GREAT. Sicne you wnat to being Christianity into it, I beleive Jesus would tell you to spread the wealth around a bit more than you are.


 
Christianity???? I am a atheists.

And where are the spelling police?


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

traveler said:


> Being successful and prosperous is GREAT. Sicne you wnat to being Christianity into it, I beleive Jesus would tell you to spread the wealth around a bit more than you are.


"Spreading the wealth around" is socialism, not Christianity. Christianity says "Let those who not work, not eat" and promotes a strong work ethic. It's true that Christianity does teach taking care of the poor and those truly in need, but "spreading the wealth around" to able bodied men and women who can work is not part of it.


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

JayH said:


> ... In the video Edwin Hill states that 85% of our membership is 8 for 8 quality installers. 10% are top echelon performers. 5% are deadbeats....
> 
> The IBEW will have to evolve if it wishes to survive.


I would have to disagree with those percentages based on what I get from the hall, and yes IBEW needs to change their business model. They either adapt to the market or they will get eaten by the market.

It's not always the big that eat the small, more often than not its the fast that eat the slow.


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

The problem with socialism is eventually you run out of other peoples money.


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

i vote that we do away with automatic tax withholding....let everyone who wants to spread the wealth, write a check every week for their taxes...we'll see a definite change in attitude


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

oldman said:


> i vote that we do away with automatic tax withholding....let everyone who wants to spread the wealth, write a check every week for their taxes...we'll see a definite change in attitude


There would be millions in the streets if that happened. 

Or maybe not. Maybe the government has so stupified the general population that such a thing isn't possible any more.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

oldman said:


> i vote that we do away with automatic tax withholding....let everyone who wants to spread the wealth, write a check every week for their taxes...we'll see a definite change in attitude


If you had to pay your own taxes monthly like rent or mortage in lieu of with holding the money by your employer you would hear more screaming.

Christianity???? I am a atheists.

And where are the spelling police?


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## wwilson174 (Apr 25, 2008)

Christianity???? I am a atheists.

And where are the spelling police? 
__________________
I void warranty's 



I don't know!


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

Laid off due to budget cuts.


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

oldman said:


> i vote that we do away with automatic tax withholding....let everyone who wants to spread the wealth, write a check every week for their taxes...we'll see a definite change in attitude


 I have said that for years.

You wanna see some real change? Reconnect the tax payers with their own money and when they have to write that fat check each month, "accountability" would take on a whole new meaning, and there would be some real change.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Somewhere in this long thread was posted why would an open shop electrician work for less than a union electrician.

In another thread an aspiring electrician posted he tried for 4 years to get in his local, local. Now lets assume scale is $42.00 an hour for a union man, open shop $36.00 and Wal-Mart or Domino's $12.50.

WHAT ARE THE OPTIONS? A man wants a trade and a better living when for whatever reason cannot get in his local? Which means there are NO OTHER OPTIONS for him.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

brian john said:


> Somewhere in this long thread was posted why would an open shop electrician work for less than a union electrician.
> 
> In another thread an aspiring electrician posted he tried for 4 years to get in his local, local. Now lets assume scale is $42.00 an hour for a union man, open shop $36.00 and Wal-Mart or Domino's $12.50.
> 
> WHAT ARE THE OPTIONS? A man wants a trade and a better living when for whatever reason cannot get in his local? Which means there are NO OTHER OPTIONS for him.


Agreed.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

brian john said:


> WHAT ARE THE OPTIONS? A man wants a trade and a better living when for whatever reason cannot get in his local? Which means there are NO OTHER OPTIONS for him.


Wait around four years to get into the apprenticeship? Thats a whole enlistment in whatever service of your choice. BTW that is what people who come from nowhere do, because there are no options, they sign-up and leave town.

It is idiotic to see these kids hold out forever and bank on making it into the Ibew apprenticeship. Go out and find a real life kids. The young ones who get in didn't make it on their own steam, unless they were a token minority or woman. If you want to move your life onto a faster path, go the non-union route, learn as much as you can, do the very best in school, and keep your application for the union current. You will be way ahead of the game, and it makes it worth putting up with sh1t from people. BTW, getting sh1t from someone is nothing new, and the people who flip sh1t are a P.O.S. minority not worth your time anyway. Not spending your first two years as the parts and cleanup bitch is another reason to start on the other side. Not everyone does, most new help working for small contractors does installs from day one, but if you are at a large contractor, you will be humpin material and trash from day one, to day 500.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

brian john said:


> No I don't, I am allowed (for the time being) to have my own thoughts formed by what I see and know. A process you seem incapable of.
> 
> *His thoughts are not his own simply because they're 180 degrees from yours?*
> 
> ...


*They're at a union meeting.*


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

miller_elex said:


> Wait around four years to get into the apprenticeship? Thats a whole enlistment in whatever service of your choice. BTW that is what people who come from nowhere do, because there are no options, they sign-up and leave town.
> 
> It is idiotic to see these kids hold out forever and bank on making it into the Ibew apprenticeship. Go out and find a real life kids. The young ones who get in didn't make it on their own steam, unless they were a token minority or woman. If you want to move your life onto a faster path, go the non-union route, learn as much as you can, do the very best in school, and keep your application for the union current. You will be way ahead of the game, and it makes it worth putting up with sh1t from people. BTW, getting sh1t from someone is nothing new, and the people who flip sh1t are a P.O.S. minority not worth your time anyway. Not spending your first two years as the parts and cleanup bitch is another reason to start on the other side. Not everyone does, most new help working for small contractors does installs from day one, but if you are at a large contractor, you will be humpin material and trash from day one, to day 500.


*Spoken like a true expatriot who got thrown out when after bs-ing his entire apprenticeship, found out he couldn't hack it as a journeyman. *


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

I love how lawn guy doesn't even pay attention to what he's saying or to whom. He just spouts some feel good gibberish and puffs his chest out. 

Good job, numbnuts.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

oldman said:


> I love how lawn guy doesn't even pay attention to what he's saying or to whom. He just spouts some feel good gibberish and puffs his chest out.
> 
> Good job, numbnuts.


I learned from the best, Oldman! Thanks!


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> *Spoken like a true expatriot who got thrown out when after bs-ing his entire apprenticeship, found out he couldn't hack it as a journeyman. *


Feeling defensive? Diverting attention away from the truth?

I'm a troll, but nowhere near the troll you are, I can't figure out if you are the self-appointed God of the Ibew, or someone pays you to troll.


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

brian john said:


> And where are the spelling police?


I'm right here.


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## wwilson174 (Apr 25, 2008)

steelersman said:


> I'm right here.


 

Christianity???? 
I am a atheists.

And where are the spelling police? 
__________________
I void warranty's


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

I said I'm right here.


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## wwilson174 (Apr 25, 2008)

steelersman said:


> I said I'm right here.


 
Are you guilty of selective enforcement?


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

No. I enforce whenever I feel in the mood. FYI, I haven't enforced anything on this thread.


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## wwilson174 (Apr 25, 2008)

steelersman said:


> No. I enforce whenever I feel in the mood. FYI, I haven't enforced anything on this thread.


I noticed, hence the question.


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

Take note oldhead that I haven't corrected anyone on this thread. I simply answered Brian's question.


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## wwilson174 (Apr 25, 2008)

steelersman said:


> Take note oldhead that I haven't corrected anyone on this thread. I simply answered Brian's question.


 

Duly noted!


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## traveler (Sep 15, 2009)

Peter D said:


> "Spreading the wealth around" is socialism, not Christianity. Christianity says "Let those who not work, not eat" and promotes a strong work ethic. It's true that Christianity does teach taking care of the poor and those truly in need, but "spreading the wealth around" to able bodied men and women who can work is not part of it.


 
"It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God".

Do you know of the man who told Jesus how he had followed all of the commandments and asked what more he could do? Jesus told him, give all of your money to the poor and follow me. The man walked away sad. 

Jesus said Man cannot serve two masters. He will end up loving one and despising the other.

The two masters being Money and God.

There is a big difference in working for what you have, and being GREEDY. Love your brother means be generous. How is being a signatory contractor with the union not generous?

Careful bringing Christianity into a discussion with me. I have him on my side, and he speaks through me in such matters, as he promised he would.

Now, back to the topic.

P.S. Brian, you told me yourself, you are the owner of a union shop and had been so for 25 years. Then you talked as though you were jsut a non-union hand above....so which one is it??

Again, no one can tell me what is bad about being in the union, when the employer has the right to fire for lack of production. MONEY. That is the main difference.

The "capitalism" that you talk of, is one that is REGULATED. Un restrained capitalism always brings back sweat shops, child labor, etc.

A good _*mix*_ of both socialism and capitalism is what works best, and it's what built this country. If there wasn't a mix, you would have never been able to built your shop fromt he ground up

Since there will always be more of us than you, might as well get used to the idea.

~Joe


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

Well said!


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

traveler said:


> "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God".
> 
> Do you know of the man who told Jesus how he had followed all of the commandments and asked what more he could do? Jesus told him, give all of your money to the poor and follow me. The man walked away sad.
> 
> ...



So the union is on 'A mission from God' I never new that.:laughing:

I may have bought into that when the unions where formed, now it is clearly more about union greed then any other issue at all.

Here is the 103 Building in Boston.










Who pays for that?

Who pays for all the employees inside?

Do those employees inside expect more each year?

Does the boss of the place want to increase his fiefdom?


Ultimately the customer has to pay for all that and to what benefit? Oh I know, you will say 'training' got news for you sunshine training exists outside those walls as well.


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

i think, too me anyway, just because you once saved a baby from drowning, doesn't mean that you have the right to beat every baby you see from that day forward....

the unions served a noble purpose, and if they stuck to what they publicly preach, they would be good...

but....there's always a but....

they've overstepped their boundries...they no longer offer a superior product....now they send you the same guys who weren't worth $25/hr when they were non-union, and tell you that they are suddenly worth $75/hr...

the unions need to reboot their philosophies and change with the times...that doesn't mean work for pennies a day...it means stand by the principals that they expouse...

but what do i know....lawn guy will come along and tell us how we are all greedy and evil for not thinking he deserves the same money as the owner for putting in a total of 35 hrs a week...


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## John (Jan 22, 2007)

traveler said:


> "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God".
> 
> Do you know of the man who told Jesus how he had followed all of the commandments and asked what more he could do? Jesus told him, give all of your money to the poor and follow me. The man walked away sad.
> 
> ...



" . . . it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God," has another meaning that you are not seeing.

The Talmud also has a statement “A needle’s eye is not too narrow for two friends, nor is the world wide enough for two enemies.” 
These two quotes have the same meaning: *impossibility*.

It is an “impossibility” that the 7.5% and the 92.5% of us to agree on the beneficial nature of unionization on the electrical trade.

It is time that we stop fighting amongst ourselves and stand united together for the good of us all…..:no: 





*“We all are now enthralled by a great conflict for the emancipation of union members from the thralldom of an elitist caste which has thrown its shadows upon untold generations, and is now plunging the world into a tumult of the world’s electricians.”

The other 92.5%*


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Darn it...now I'm being dragged into a union topic. How ironic. :w00t:

If I'm reading this correctly you're actually using the principles of Christianity to defend unionism? Well, I can play that game. 



traveler said:


> "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God".


That is true. 



> Do you know of the man who told Jesus how he had followed all of the commandments and asked what more he could do? Jesus told him, give all of your money to the poor and follow me. The man walked away sad.


Also true. 



> Jesus said Man cannot serve two masters. He will end up loving one and despising the other.
> 
> The two masters being Money and God.


True again. The verse you seemed to have left out is "The love of money is the root of all evil." Money is not evil. It is the desire to love money above all else that is evil. But this does nothing to bolster the position of unionism as the union philosophy in many instances is all about making money at the point of a gun. There seems to be quite a lust for money in the hallowed halls of the IBEW. So in my opinion the very verses you quoted condemn the IBEW. 



> There is a big difference in working for what you have, and being GREEDY. Love your brother means be generous. How is being a signatory contractor with the union not generous?


So then you're suggestion union contractors are non-profit organizations simply for altruistic reasons? They are in for the love of their fellow man? They donate every last penny they make to their workers and good causes every year? C'mon...you can't really be making that argument, are you? :w00t: 

Now, I understand that not every contractor, union or not, is greedy. But the whole point of contracting is profit motivated, which by the way is not a sinful act either. But you're stretching this way beyond reasonable bounds to suggest that contracting is altruistic. 






> Careful bringing Christianity into a discussion with me. I have him on my side, and he speaks through me in such matters, as he promised he would.


Now you've met your match.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Peter D said:


> Darn it...now I'm being dragged into a union topic. How ironic.



Yeah but that is how life goes.:laughing:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> Yeah but that is how life goes.:laughing:


Yep. :laughing:


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## traveler (Sep 15, 2009)

Again....follow this carefully....

Union contractors have the right to fire an individual for lack of production, or un-craftsman like work.

It is written in the bylaws, and I have seen it in practice regularly.

So, since you, as an owner have the right to fire incompetent workers, and that would leave you with only the ones that are good.....what is your hangup with the union again???

Oh yeah.....MONEY.

It's admirable that you guys care so much about your boss, that you are willing to work for less than you can. Stupid, but admirable.

As for me.....I work for money. that's the way the world works, and so I'm gonna take the best deal.

The boss wants you to have it good...just not too good. I mean, who the hell are you, anyway?? Just a stupid *******.

~Joe


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

traveler said:


> As for me.....I work for money. that's the way the world works, and so I'm gonna take the best deal.
> 
> ~Joe


That's exactly the way I look at it as well. I just happen to be union. I didn't go to the hall and try to join. I was requested and had a company that wanted to hire me, so therefore I joined. But I guess this apparently makes me guilty by association according to some on this thread.


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## traveler (Sep 15, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> So the union is on 'A mission from God' I never new that.:laughing:
> 
> I may have bought into that when the unions where formed, now it is clearly more about union greed then any other issue at all.
> 
> ...


Well, looks to me like the brothers in local #103 aren't going to have to worry about who is going to protect them from being screwed over by some boss that want's to ignore OSHA.:thumbup:

~Joe


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## traveler (Sep 15, 2009)

steelersman said:


> That's exactly the way I look at it as well. I just happen to be union. I didn't go to the hall and try to join. I was requested and had a company that wanted to hire me, so therefore I joined. But I guess this apparently makes me guilty by association according to some on this thread.


That's what it's all about.

Providing you with the best standard of living you can have.

of course, there are owners who bristle at the idea of paying you any more than they absolutly have to.

Let the union dissappear, and watch how wages in the trade fall below $10/hr.

Union wage keep non-union wages where they are at.

~Joe


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

traveler said:


> Well, looks to me like the brothers in local #103 aren't going to have to worry about who is going to protect them from being screwed over by some boss that want's to ignore OSHA.:thumbup:
> 
> ~Joe


Now that is so freaking funny, you really stepped right in it. 

That shows how little you know or how little your willing to admit.

I have a nice video of your union brothers installing those PV panels on the roof, no fall protection at all. Working on step ladders not more than 6' from a 4 or 5 story drop. This video comes on a DVD about PV installations. 

Now what was the point you where trying to make? :whistling2:


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

And I defy any off you to send a slacker back to the hall in local 456, 400 or 164 territory. Wait till you see how good the replacement is

Colorado is a weak union state. They have to work with contractors. They can't bully them

Heck, in Colorado, GC's like Whiting-Turner operate non-union. Here in NJ, not so. 

Now, maybe, in other parts of the country, the IBEW does what it claims. But here in NJ? Not so much.


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## Charlie K (Aug 14, 2008)

Bob Badger said:


> Now that is so freaking funny, you really stepped right in it.
> 
> That shows how little you know or how little your willing to admit.
> 
> ...


Safety belts and fall protection removed for clarity?:laughing::laughing:

Bob, are you off today?

Charlie


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## JayH (Nov 13, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> I have a nice video of your union brothers installing those PV panels on the roof, no fall protection at all. Working on step ladders not more than 6' from a 4 or 5 story drop. This video comes on a DVD about PV installations.


That is a crying shame on every level.

1) The owner of the shop (if involved) that did not insure safety practices were being followed.

2) The foreman that did not have the correct safety measures in place for his crew.

3) The installers that put themselves at risk of not going home to their family in one piece.

It never ceases to amaze me that it takes a tradgedy for workers such as these to wake up to the risks inherent to our trade.


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

traveler said:


> Again....follow this carefully....
> 
> Union contractors have the right to fire an individual for lack of production, or un-craftsman like work.
> 
> ...


Typical hypocrite. You just want to spread other people's wealth. But you are greedy as the day is long. 



Pick something and stand for it. But be intellectually honest about it.


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## paul d. (Jul 13, 2008)

dont know about the rest of the country, but around atlanta the GC's that do comm/ind work are very safety conscious. to the point of being ridiculous. also my co. is great on safety. ( non-union )


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

JayH said:


> That is a crying shame on every level.
> 
> 1) The owner of the shop (if involved) that did not insure safety practices were being followed.
> 
> ...


I love how it's the 'owner of the shop' listed first without knowing any facts at all. I think the grown men doing the work have voices. 



I am talking a PV class and the required book includes a DVD. A lot of time is spent on safety requirements for roof work so I was pretty surprised that in this DVD you see the 103 Members for about 10 minutes seeming ignorant of any safety rules for fall protection.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Charlie K said:


> Safety belts and fall protection removed for clarity?:laughing::laughing:


That must have been it. 



> Bob, are you off today?


Yeah, took a couple of vacation days.


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## JayH (Nov 13, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> I love how it's the 'owner of the shop' listed first without knowing any facts at all. I think the grown men doing the work have voices.


 
Note that I did include (if involved.)

Most of the shops I have worked for the owner is not involved on this level but a superintendent would be.


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## wwilson174 (Apr 25, 2008)

Tragedy!


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

*Bird-dog*



JayH said:


> That is a crying shame on every level.
> 
> 1) The owner of the shop (if involved) that did not insure safety practices were being followed.
> 
> ...


 You do know that part of the big sales pitch IBEW uses (as well as the speech we all get to here over and over) is that IBEW provide the best, well trained and safest workers on the market. In fact there are a multitude of posts in this very forum espousing these supposedly unique and monopolized values.

So, if I am paying top dollar for IBEW's [best of the best] do I still have to bird-dog these professionals to ensure they are performing their work in a safe and professional manner? Are they not the professionals I was told they were? I thought only RATS worked in an unsafe manner, are there RATS in your ranks?

How often should I be running around to all the jobs doing safety checks and inspecting all the work for each of these professionals? I am not really sure now, but you seem to have some amazing powers of observation maybe you could offer some advice.


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

I covered that ground already Elvis. 

But one thing I've noticed in this thread is that not one pro-union guy can give a positive reason for a contractor to sign on. It's all about them and what they get. 

Make it a positive move for the contractors and life would be better.


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## JayH (Nov 13, 2009)

PhatElvis said:


> You do know that part of the big sales pitch IBEW uses (as well as the speech we all get to here over and over) is that IBEW provide the best, well trained and safest workers on the market. In fact there are a multitude of posts in this very forum espousing these supposedly unique and monopolized values.
> 
> So, if I am paying top dollar for IBEW's [best of the best] do I still have to bird-dog these professionals to ensure they are performing their work in a safe and professional manner? Are they not the professionals I was told they were? I thought only RATS worked in an unsafe manner, are there RATS in your ranks?
> 
> How often should I be running around to all the jobs doing safety checks and inspecting all the work for each of these professionals? I am not really sure now, but you seem to have some amazing powers of observation maybe you could offer some advice.


So many questions, I'll try to help where I can.

1) You should not have to bird-dog these workers at all.

2)I would hope they were the professionals you were told they were but;

3) There are unsafe individuals in our ranks. (I prefer to stay away from the derogatory term RATS on either side of the fence.)

Some of the programs that have worked for us in the past are incentive based. Some included the participation of our insurance carrier. 

I wish just the incentive to go home in one piece were enough. 

One of the incentive programs was called safety bucks. It is still in effect at that shop and quite successful. Each job awards safety bucks to each individual which they can accumulate and trade for merchandise, The insurer participates in this program. If the job has a lost time accident that week, no employees on that project are awarded safety bucks. The employees tend to police each other.

Another awards cash (usually $20 - $50) at the weekly tailgate meeting to the worker who in the eyes of the foreman or general foreman who is most deserving of the safety award that week.

Another program awarded a weekend stay at a mid range hotel once per month to the worker chosen by the superintendents and general foremans at the monthly foremans meeting.

There must also be consequences for workers who violate safety policies. These should be spelled out in your safety manual.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

There is no positive reason for a contractor to sign on, unless you are doing big work in the middle of nowhere.

When collective bargaining is done on behalf of the employees, it is called a union, and derided.

When collective bargaining is done on behalf of employers, it is called an association, and lauded.

You mention the Boston local's building... how big is the Boston chapter of the AGC's building?

Whine IBEW this, and IBEW that, yet John from Vermont says we are only 7.5%. We, such a small minority appreciate all the attention!

What needs to change, is the AFL-CIO monopoly on organized electricians. Bring some competition in for collective bargaining, two unions, thats awesome, three, maybe... but four, that's one too many. Make it so the membership is not exclusive, and hands could take work from both halls.

The carpenters had far, far worse problems than us.


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

More spreading of the wealth. Now you have to bribe guys to do the very thing they claim to have a monopoly on?

What's next? Paying a guy $10 spiff for remembering both his phillips AND flathead?

Sorry guys, your points were week to begin with and they are simply getting weaker. 

This is no longer about anything than damn near marxism.


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## JayH (Nov 13, 2009)

oldman said:


> More spreading of the wealth. Now you have to bribe guys to do the very thing they claim to have a monopoly on?
> 
> What's next? Paying a guy $10 spiff for remembering both his phillips AND flathead?
> 
> ...


 

They're weak not week.


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

Miller- they have that in NYC, and local 3 pickets local 363 jobs


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## Control Freak (Mar 8, 2008)

oldman said:


> I covered that ground already Elvis.
> 
> But one thing I've noticed in this thread is that not one pro-union guy can give a positive reason for a contractor to sign on. It's all about them and what they get.
> 
> Make it a positive move for the contractors and life would be better.


 
I can give a couple of good reasons a shop would want to go union...

part of the requirements for biddding on certain work in New York City require that the trades have a nationally accredited apprenticeship. in fact some types of labor contracts require the work to be performed by a union shop.

Also, a contractor that signs up gets to take advantage of a large pool of journeymen with experience in every aspect of the trade. For example lets say a smaller shop employing 5 to 10 mechanics would like to expand. they can simply put a call for men in at the union hall. the same goes for any specialty work like high voltage splicing, testing, subway work.


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

JayH said:


> They're weak not week.


That's just proof of how weak they are


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## Control Freak (Mar 8, 2008)

oldman said:


> Miller- they have that in NYC, and local 3 pickets local 363 jobs


 
Don't make it sound that simple. 363 undercuts local 3 by "claiming" to be a union. in reality it is a "bosses" local or an association of contractors. 363 is simply a business tactic. By claiming union status they can bid on union jobs. The hourly wage is close but the real difference is in the benefit package. they can underbid local 3 contractors because of a smaller benefit package. thats not fair competion. That is actually undermining the conditions and wages set by the ibew.


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

Control Freak said:


> I can give a couple of good reasons a shop would want to go union...
> 
> part of the requirements for biddding on certain work in New York City require that the trades have a nationally accredited apprenticeship. in fact some types of labor contracts require the work to be performed by a union shop.
> 
> Also, a contractor that signs up gets to take advantage of a large pool of journeymen with experience in every aspect of the trade. For example lets say a smaller shop employing 5 to 10 mechanics would like to expand. they can simply put a call for men in at the union hall. the same goes for any specialty work like high voltage splicing, testing, subway work.


So....extortion and a line of BS. 

We've placed calls to the hall for certain skills, and have been sent 1st year JW's who didn't have a clue. 

It's a good premise, but too many locals don't walk the walk.


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## Control Freak (Mar 8, 2008)

oldman said:


> Miller- they have that in NYC, and local 3 pickets local 363 jobs


and by the way...............unions can't picket union jobs or prevailing wage jobs......but Old Man knew this. he knows everything!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## JayH (Nov 13, 2009)

oldman said:


> That's just proof of how weak they are


Yes, I suppose it is in your eyes.

Look, I realize you're trying to bait me, but these are instances of programs that actually work to keep the mod rate down for these contractors.

These are shops owned by greedy contractors that rake in millions of capitalist dollars and employ hundreds of Marxist electricians who spend thousands of their hard earned rubles in their community on their deplorable commie excesses.


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

Control Freak said:


> and by the way...............unions can't picket union jobs or prevailing wage jobs......but Old Man knew this. he knows everything!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Google it. Newspaper reports and all. I'm posting from my phone and wish I could remember some of the company names. Just came across a few cases the other night while searching for something related. 

But they've done it.


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

JayH said:


> Yes, I suppose it is in your eyes.
> 
> Look, I realize you're trying to bait me, but these are instances of programs that actually work to keep the mod rate down for these contractors.
> 
> These are shops owned by greedy contractors that rake in millions of capitalist dollars and employ hundreds of Marxist electricians who spend thousands of their hard earned rubles in their community on their deplorable commie excesses.


And you are correct for the morrow-meadows or rosedins (sp?). But what about the small signatory? It's not enough for him to pay the rate?


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## JayH (Nov 13, 2009)

oldman said:


> And you are correct for the morrow-meadows or rosedins (sp?). But what about the small signatory? It's not enough for him to pay the rate?


It should be enough in every instance. I have said as much in my posts.

That being said, it is my experience that the incentive based programs produce the best results.

I'm not sure how small of a contractor to which you are referring.

Obviously an incentive based safety program shouldn't exceed its' benefit.


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

I am not giving employees’ more money just to follow the rules, I already pay top dollar for what is supposed to be the best and most well trained, professional labor money can buy. Nowhere in my agreement does it say I have to pay extra for these professionals to actually follow the company rules.

I am not counting on union members turning each other in for safety violations. It just won’t happen, on any level. IBEW labor does not police themselves. Look around, nobody is going to rat out their [brother], not for safety, not for theft, not for production, not for anything. If you do catch somebody doing something, everybody in the area just seems to vanish, and they ones that can’t scurry away fast enough always say the same thing, [I told them not to do that.] 

Yes safety is a big deal….a very big deal, as with drug test and all the safety measures we all have to do now, because not doing them is no longer an option. However actually following those rules is at the sole option of each man on the job, it is a personal decision, they have to choose to be part of the program, if they choose not to and I catch them, they are fired with cause, but if I have to actually hold their hands or bird-dog then what exactly I am paying so much for?

--------------------------------------

BTW IEC has a nationally accredited apprenticeship program.


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## Control Freak (Mar 8, 2008)

Old Man,

you sound like an owner. if you are an owner, can you please post what you pay a journeyman? just curious.

I think i recall you posting thaat you belonged to a union at one point. if so why did you leave?


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

PhatElvis said:


> The problem with socialism is eventually you run out of other peoples money.


 credit: Margret Thatcher:thumbsup:


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

BuzzKill said:


> credit: Margret Thatcher:thumbsup:


 LOL.... yes yes.

Here is another:

Capitalism is unequal share of blessings, while Socialism is the equal share of misery.- Winston Churchill


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## Control Freak (Mar 8, 2008)

PhatElvis said:


> I am not giving employees’ more money just to follow the rules, I already pay top dollar for what is supposed to be the best and most well trained, professional labor money can buy. Nowhere in my agreement does it say I have to pay extra for these professionals to actually follow the company rules.
> 
> I am not counting on union members turning each other in for safety violations. It just won’t happen, on any level. IBEW labor does not police themselves. Look around, nobody is going to rat out their [brother], not for safety, not for theft, not for production, not for anything. If you do catch somebody doing something, everybody in the area just seems to vanish, and they ones that can’t scurry away fast enough always say the same thing, [I told them not to do that.]
> 
> ...


 
are YOU an owner? are you part of a union shop?


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## JayH (Nov 13, 2009)

PhatElvis said:


> IBEW labor does not police themselves. Look around, nobody is going to rat out their [brother], not for safety, not for theft, not for production, not for anything.


That has not been my experience. It is regrettable that those are the conditions in your area and unfortunate for us that it reflects on our membership as a whole.


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

*still weak*



JayH said:


> That has not been my experience. It is regrettable that those are the conditions in your area and unfortunate for us that it reflects on our membership as a whole.


 Well it has been mine, and a agree it is regrettable.

Control Freak... YES and YES, I have an inside agreement with IBEW.


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## Control Freak (Mar 8, 2008)

Phat Elvis and Old Man,

I am patiently waiting for a response.


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

Control Freak said:


> Phat Elvis and Old Man,
> 
> I am patiently waiting for a response.


Apparently not patiently enough...


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## Control Freak (Mar 8, 2008)

PhatElvis said:


> Well it has been mine, and a agree it is regrettable.
> 
> Control Freak... YES and I have an inside agreement with IBEW.


 
so whats the problem with the IBEW then. Everybody you have hired sucks? or just some people sucked. Nobody ever claimed that there aren't any bad apples in the batch. Im sure you have never had any A journeymen from the hall that had performed a top notch quality installation.

So whats your beef? Leave the union then. you must be getting something out of the deal.


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

PhatElvis said:


> LOL.... yes yes.
> 
> Here is another:
> 
> Capitalism is unequal share of blessings, while Socialism is the equal share of misery.- Winston Churchill


 very good, very good.


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

*...time to call it a day...*

Control Freak,

Do a search for Phatelvis and Rant, I am sure you can figure it out, without me having to retype all that again.... and NO you just cant leave anytime you want. Do your homework before you ask silly questions.


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## Control Freak (Mar 8, 2008)

PhatElvis said:


> Control Freak,
> 
> Do a search for Phatelvis and Rant, I am sure you can figure it out, without me having to retype all that again.... and NO you just cant leave anytime you want. Do your homework before you ask silly questions.


 
what the fck are you talking about?


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

Control - my old man was local 3, then a signatory contractor in NJ. I'm a non-union contractor.


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## Control Freak (Mar 8, 2008)

Old Man,

How is business going? we are all taking a beating in New York City. 
I just did a forty story building and they dont have any tennants yet.

What types of work do you do? 
also I do not hate non-union contractors.

Happy Thanksgiving


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

oldman said:


> And you are correct for the morrow-meadows or rosedins (sp?). But what about the small signatory?


You just mentioned the names of the two shops held in highest regards here.

I hope they make millions.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

oldman said:


> I'm a non-union contractor.


Are you a contractor like Phat, a flat-rate service shop, or something else entirely? I know what Phat does for a living, he's my gawd-dammed hero, but I could never work that hard.


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

not sure if i'm like phat...mostly commercial...no resi...about 50/50 service vs. install...

but, i could teach classes on flat-rate service....


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

oldman said:


> not sure if i'm like phat...mostly commercial...no resi...about 50/50 service vs. install...
> 
> but, i could teach classes on flat-rate service....


 I have never done a flat rate,only contract and mostly target big jobs, then do medium and small for the gravy.


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