# Owner allowed to wire home, commercial bldg......



## conclavicus (Jul 25, 2016)

When and where was the owner of a building exempted from having to hire a licensed electrician or contractor??? Was it always this way or was it the result of a trial case in the courts???

I realize in such cases that NEC codes still apply and the property cannot be a for rental or for lease property to others.

Can a licensed electrician help the owner and if so does he have to be responsible for inspection???? Are any union issues involved in this situation???


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

It's different in every state. 

Here, only the owner of a single family house can do electrical work and I think even then there are restrictions on whether it's going to be rented.

I don't think the unions had anything to do with it. They don't really compete with such low level work that the owner could do it themselves lol.


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## Byte (Oct 3, 2016)

HackWork said:


> It's different in every state.
> 
> Here, only the owner of a single family house can do electrical work and I think even then there are restrictions on whether it's going to be rented.
> 
> I don't think the unions had anything to do with it. They don't really compete with such low level work that the owner could do it themselves lol.


Do the unions have any right to infringe on a homeowner? I think not, but maybe in Russia?


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## mdnitedrftr (Aug 21, 2013)

In CT, owners can wire their homes. POCO won't deal with you unless you have a license though. Not sure about businesses.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Byte said:


> Do the unions have any right to infringe on a homeowner? I think not, but maybe in Russia?


The unions may or may not have been involved with lobbying for certain laws and regulations.


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## conclavicus (Jul 25, 2016)

Not so interested in whether it was union driven or not. Would like to know if it was always this way or if not was there a seminal trial that made it happen (like a Roe v Wade) ????


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

conclavicus said:


> Not so interested in whether it was union driven or not. Would like to know if it was always this way or if not was there a seminal trial that made it happen (like a Roe v Wade) ????


The NEC itself was launched by the fire insurance industry.

They forced everyone to use skilled talent -- by not writing low cost policies for the DIY crowd.

On any serious structure, the fire insurance players will send out their own man to inspect. 

If he declines, you, as the property owner, are screwed.

You will not ever be able to obtain financing against the property.

DIY 'technique' is glaring to such insurance men.

This is also the same force that's driving K&T out of the market.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Very True Tels, and let's remember the insurance cabal owns everything out to Neptune, maybe _Uranus_ by now.....~C:jester:S~


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Agricultural has an exemption here. They get to do whatever they want.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I think it wasn't till sometime in the seventies when licensing was introduced here and probably at the same time the provision for homeowner wiring was put to paper. There is always something going on at the state level, bills for the elimination of licenses, exemption from licenses, creation of new licenses, increasing the scope of existing licenses, etc.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Suncoast Power said:


> Agricultural has an exemption here. They get to do whatever they want.


Farm wiring is a _horror show_ here.....~CS~


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I have sympathy for the plight of farmers, but not sure that's a good thing. One thing to risk your neck (and maybe your families) but also your employee's too. That may have been proposed here. On the other hand, I don't think I'd go for no homeowner wiring or plumbing either. I can change a faucet if I need to. If its complicated enough, I'll just have one of the guys I know deal with it. Excuse to visit and talk.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

I'm a firm believer in the rights of a person to do pretty much whatever mechanical work to their home as they want. A homeowner would be wise to do work that is code-compliant, but I don't think any government should have the authority to force compliance. This of course depends on the proximity and impact one has on others. A condo/townhouse owner, for example, shouldn't be allowed to wire freely if his condo is attached to others. But a man who builds a house on his 40 acre farm ought to be able to wire it with paperclips and bailing wire if he's dumb enough to do it.


I don't feel the same about properties where the general public has access to. Inspectors and permits are necessary here in my opinion.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

As complicated as home ownership has become, I begin to wonder sometimes whether there is any ownership in that. Maybe just rent.


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## PlugsAndLights (Jan 19, 2016)

Quebec does just about everything differently than the rest of Canada.
I'm not 100% on this, but fairly sure home owners are not allowed to do 
any electrical work there. From what I gather, my license is also worth 
nothing there. Maybe @*emtnut* will know better. 
P&L


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

In good ol Nebraska the homeowner must be occupying the residence. That means no on new construction and no on any rentals or even an offsite cabin or garage.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

hackwork said:


> it's different in every *county.*
> 
> here, only the owner of a single family house can do electrical work and i think even then there are restrictions on whether it's going to be rented.
> 
> I don't think the unions had anything to do with it. They don't really compete with such low level work that the owner could do it themselves lol.


fify, ........................................................


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## Byte (Oct 3, 2016)

I googled it and apparently homeowners in Quebec can only change light bulbs as demanded by the Insurance Bureau who can demand anything they want. That bureau is worse than OPEC.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I wondered if it came down to insurance.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

RePhase277 said:


> I'm a firm believer in the rights of a person to do pretty much whatever mechanical work to their home as they want. A homeowner would be wise to do work that is code-compliant, but I don't think any government should have the authority to force compliance. This of course depends on the proximity and impact one has on others. A condo/townhouse owner, for example, shouldn't be allowed to wire freely if his condo is attached to others. But a man who builds a house on his 40 acre farm ought to be able to wire it with paperclips and bailing wire if he's dumb enough to do it.
> 
> 
> I don't feel the same about properties where the general public has access to. Inspectors and permits are necessary here in my opinion.


Normally my political opinion would make me want to agree with what you are saying. But here's the thing about what you just said, you recognize that one person shouldn't be able to have their unsafe work hurt someone else. But in that same respect, you have no problem with that person's unsuspecting wife, kids, family, guests, etc. getting hurt inside of his house. 

For example, I know of a situation in which a man's family and friends got hurt when a deck he built very poorly and didn't have inspected collapsed. I'm sure we've all heard stories of electrical fires killing kids, many of which may have been caused by the homeowner's shoddy work. 

While I respect the right for a man to own his house, he doesn't have the right to harm or kill other people, even his own kids.

Also, I say this as someone who almost daily sees horrible and dangerous homeowner and handyman work. It's rampant.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

HackWork said:


> Normally my political opinion would make me want to agree with what you are saying. But here's the thing about what you just said, you recognize that one person shouldn't be able to have their unsafe work hurt someone else. But in that same respect, you have no problem with that person's unsuspecting wife, kids, family, guests, etc. getting hurt inside of his house.
> 
> For example, I know of a situation in which a man's family and friends got hurt when a deck he built very poorly and didn't have inspected collapsed. I'm sure we've all heard stories of electrical fires killing kids, many of which may have been caused by the homeowner's shoddy work.
> 
> ...


That used to also be my opinion, but then I had an AHA! moment with the theory of evolution and realized that if a man is too dumb to do something safe and effective, then we as a species are better off without him and his children polluting the gene pool. It even applies to his wife for being dumb enough to shack up with his slack ass genetics.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

It's something of a dilemma with valid points for and against. I'm just not sure I like the way it's going to go if we go down that route. Being in the trades, I'm fairly mechanically inclined. If I choose to work on my car, I'd like to, if I want to work on my house, I'd like to as well. That's me, and probably most of us here. Obviously from what we all see day to day from people who don't know any better, it makes you think. The minute we moved in to our new home, the town was right there, inside, taking measurements and looking at everything to make sure the last guy didn't screw them. Its only getting worse.


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

PlugsAndLights said:


> Quebec does just about everything differently than the rest of Canada.
> I'm not 100% on this, but fairly sure home owners are not allowed to do
> any electrical work there. From what I gather, my license is also worth
> nothing there. Maybe @*emtnut* will know better.
> P&L


Quebec is a funny province 

I have a cottage in Quebec. You have to be an electrical contractor to do any electrical work.
I guess it's good for the electricians here.

Funny thing is, from my experience, Quebec is the King of DIY'ers ... And since they can't permit/inspect ... There are some pretty scary installs around here 

I think can do your own plumbing though ... I don't think you can't do that in Ontario :blink:


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## Byte (Oct 3, 2016)

I did wiring as a contractor in BC and I could sign off on my work, plumbers could not. Seems like you were at more risk from a flood than fire.


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## PlugsAndLights (Jan 19, 2016)

RePhase277 said:


> That used to also be my opinion, but then I had an AHA! moment with the theory of evolution and realized that if a man is too dumb to do something safe and effective, then we as a species are better off without him and his children polluting the gene pool. It even applies to his wife for being dumb enough to shack up with his slack ass genetics.


And he's not even trolling. 
P&L


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## 3DDesign (Oct 25, 2014)

In most of Pennsylvania, anyone can wire a home and/or commercial jobs.
They must pass inspection and local building inspections, but that's it.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

PlugsAndLights said:


> And he's not even trolling.
> P&L


It's just the cold, cold truth of science. The neat thing about science is that our feelings and emotions have no bearing on it.


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

RePhase277 said:


> It's just the cold, cold truth of science. The neat thing about science is that our feelings and emotions have no bearing on it.


I think I'm starting to get feelings towards you .... Maybe it's your new gay avatar ... I'm not sure thou :jester:


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

RePhase277 said:


> It's just the cold, cold truth of science. The neat thing about science is that our feelings and emotions have no bearing on it.





emtnut said:


> I think I'm starting to get feelings towards you .... Maybe it's your new gay avatar ... I'm not sure thou :jester:


My avatar isn't gay. His boyfriend is.


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

RePhase277 said:


> My avatar isn't gay. His boyfriend is.


Gay rights matter


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

Here is my town's policy on homeowner installations.



> (a)
> Nothing in this article shall prohibit any bona fide homeowner from personally installing electrical conductors or equipment within his own home; provided that the owner shall file with the electrical inspector information as to his ability to:
> (1)
> Install electrical wiring or equipment;
> ...


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## B-Nabs (Jun 4, 2014)

RePhase277 said:


> I'm a firm believer in the rights of a person to do pretty much whatever mechanical work to their home as they want. A homeowner would be wise to do work that is code-compliant, but I don't think any government should have the authority to force compliance. This of course depends on the proximity and impact one has on others. A condo/townhouse owner, for example, shouldn't be allowed to wire freely if his condo is attached to others. But a man who builds a house on his 40 acre farm ought to be able to wire it with paperclips and bailing wire if he's dumb enough to do it.
> 
> 
> I don't feel the same about properties where the general public has access to. Inspectors and permits are necessary here in my opinion.





HackWork said:


> Normally my political opinion would make me want to agree with what you are saying. But here's the thing about what you just said, you recognize that one person shouldn't be able to have their unsafe work hurt someone else. But in that same respect, you have no problem with that person's unsuspecting wife, kids, family, guests, etc. getting hurt inside of his house.
> 
> For example, I know of a situation in which a man's family and friends got hurt when a deck he built very poorly and didn't have inspected collapsed. I'm sure we've all heard stories of electrical fires killing kids, many of which may have been caused by the homeowner's shoddy work.
> 
> ...


I absolutely believe property owners should be allowed to do their own work, but I also think they should be subject to at least the same scrutiny as contractors are. That's pretty much how it is here; one can obtain a homeowner's permit, which then subjects them to inspection at various intervals during the project. Usually these inspections are done a little more meticulously owing to the fact the inspector knows they're not dealing with a pro.

As for the argument about it being okay as long as the person isn't harming any member of the public, what about the next person who buys that house? What if some element of the previous owner's hackery is not immediately apparent during a pre-purchase inspection, and then causes a fire that kills the new owner and their family? That is not a scenario I am willing to accept which is why I support the inspection of homeowner work as a way to prevent that.

I also take issue with RePhase's assertion that the children and spouses of handyman hacks somehow deserve whatever ill fate befalls them as a result of any accidents that may happen. There is nothing Darwinian about that, it's just tragic. Those children didn't ask to be born to such an idiot. And if spouses should be expected to dump their partners because of dumb things they do so as to avoid being killed by one of their experiments, then the institution of marriage really is doomed.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

B-Nabs said:


> I also take issue with RePhase's assertion that the children and spouses of handyman hacks somehow deserve whatever ill fate befalls them as a result of any accidents that may happen. There is nothing Darwinian about that, it's just tragic. Those children didn't ask to be born to such an idiot. And if spouses should be expected to dump their partners because of dumb things they do so as to avoid being killed by one of their experiments, then the institution of marriage really is doomed.


Then you don't quite understand the Darwinian theory. The children may not have asked for any of it, but they do carry his genetics. The feeling that it is tragic is a societal invention and has no relevance on the facts.


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## B-Nabs (Jun 4, 2014)

RePhase277 said:


> Then you don't quite understand the Darwinian theory. The children may not have asked for any of it, but they do carry his genetics. The feeling that it is tragic is a societal invention and has no relevance on the facts.


I don't particularly think Darwin applies here. This is not a case of particularly strong genetic traits prevailing over weaker ones. It's a bit of a broad statement to say that any such accident is even genetic in its making. Sometimes even otherwise perfectly reasonable and smart people do stupid things. Anyway, Darwinian or not, I don't think the family of the DIYer deserve to die because of their poor installation practice. Hence why I support homeowner's permits/inspections.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

An example of Darwinism is when some hillbilly used a 22 caliber bullet as a fuse in his car, and then got shot in the testicles when it burned up and shot off.

A man making a mistake when running a MWBC in his own house and having it overload the neutral and cause a fire is more of an innocent mistake that should have been found by an inspection process.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

So the libertopians and darwinian advocates want a leash? 

Enter the HI's , the unqualified inspecting the unqualified 

:no:
~CS~


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

As a parent of two young kids of my own, other peoples kids deserve the same protection regardless of how inept the parents are.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

nrp3 said:


> As a parent of two young kids of my own, other peoples kids deserve the same protection regardless of how inept the parents are.


Now if i said that MechD would write something along the lines of my need to address a mental disorder nrp3  , but i digress

Weather one agrees or disagrees, our trade takes the _brunt of the blame_, the manufacturers presest the CMP's CSPC (et all watchers) with statistical evidence pursuant to magic widgets with codes that will never...._ever_....be read on Walton mountain


~CS~


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

B-Nabs said:


> I don't particularly think Darwin applies here. This is not a case of particularly strong genetic traits prevailing over weaker ones. It's a bit of a broad statement to say that any such accident is even genetic in its making. Sometimes even otherwise perfectly reasonable and smart people do stupid things. Anyway, Darwinian or not, I don't think the family of the DIYer deserve to die because of their poor installation practice. Hence why I support homeowner's permits/inspections.


Yes, it is a broad statement but there is a difference between a mistake and stupidity. We are now delving deeply into the depths and inner workings of nature. Evolution doesn't care about who deserves to die or live. Let's say that an otherwise intelligent person gets distracted by a phone call and overlooks one MWBC neutral screw. A fire later kills him and his family. Did they deserve it? Not by any human standard. But nature ensures that whatever genes that crafted a brain that could get distracted by a phone call have ended their march right there. It is a cold reality of the universe, whether we like it or not.

Having said that, I'm not that cold. I'm not speaking about honest mistakes. I'm only talking about the stupidity of people who would wire a structure with extension cords and bailing wire. Or the guy who builds a deck with 2x6 joists on 24" centers and sheetrock screws, 16 feet off the ground. Y'all need to lighten up just a tad. Or switch to a smaller butt plug.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Which of course brings up the manufacturing integrity of such devices 277....










~C:jester:S~


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

chicken steve said:


> Which of course brings up the manufacturing integrity of such devices 277....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I would just hope the plastic is BPA-free.


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## McDaniel8402 (Jan 14, 2014)

I've lived in a few places, and the rules on this kind of stuff are different everywhere you go. Varies form one city to another, one county to another. I believe inside of Houston (Tex) City Limits you can do wiring inside of the house that you live in, but nothing on the outside. I haven't really looked at it in the suburb that I live in. I do the work in my own home, and don't worry about it. I hate hack work, but if a guy can competently wire something up and have it be safe and functional, then why the fuss (within his own home, of course)?


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## janagyjr (Feb 7, 2011)

mdnitedrftr said:


> In CT, owners can wire their homes. POCO won't deal with you unless you have a license though. Not sure about businesses.


In TN homeowners can do own electrical work, but it still has to be inspected (and by law, even changing a receptacle requires the inspector to come out).


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## Byte (Oct 3, 2016)

Law in Canada also. You need a permit as shown below, unless you are exempt by being a Co-Gen or supplying your own power like on sites that have an agreement with Inspections departments.
*2-004 Permit*
Electrical contractors or others responsible for carrying out the work shall obtain a permit from the inspection department before commencing work with respect to installation, alteration, repair, or extension of any electrical equipment.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

nrp3 said:


> I think it wasn't till sometime in the seventies when licensing was introduced here and probably at the same time the provision for homeowner wiring was put to paper. There is always something going on at the state level, bills for the elimination of licenses, exemption from licenses, creation of new licenses, increasing the scope of existing licenses, etc.


Licensing became mandatory in NH in 1975. It was voluntary from the 60s or so, hence the big discrepancy in license numbers. My grandfather's # is in the 4 digits, but he has been an electrician since 1940. Other guys in the area have 2 digit numbers and are still working, though not many. Heck, I was working on an apartment reno today that my grandfather and great uncle wired new back in the early 50's. Cloth/rubber big romex (6-3 panel feeders and 8-2 feeding the range) and tarred romex with plastic insulation in the branch circuits.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> Very True Tels, and let's remember the insurance cabal owns everything out to Neptune, maybe _Uranus_ by now.....~C:jester:S~


Which is funny, since your state doesn't even require a license to wire single family dwellings.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Or two family GC.....:no:~CS~:no:


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Cool that you have some family history on what you're working on.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

But it gets better, two fam no license required, but a permit and inspection is

So our AHJ's run around inspecting for handymen , with all kinds of stories

I mean, these folks haven't a license to loose......

~CS~


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

Going_Commando said:


> Licensing became mandatory in NH in 1975. It was voluntary from the 60s or so, hence the big discrepancy in license numbers. My grandfather's # is in the 4 digits, but he has been an electrician since 1940. Other guys in the area have 2 digit numbers and are still working, though not many. Heck, I was working on an apartment reno today that my grandfather and great uncle wired new back in the early 50's. Cloth/rubber big romex (6-3 panel feeders and 8-2 feeding the range) and tarred romex with plastic insulation in the branch circuits.


Did you see anything that made you call gramps a hack?


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

RePhase277 said:


> Did you see anything that made you call gramps a hack?


Yup. Tore out a steel box for a wall sconce since I am adding a switch below it and needed more room for box fill. Had the old wires out, looked at one, and either him or my great uncle got a little overzealous with their pocket knives and there was some bare copper exposed on the black wire. It held up fine for almost 70 years, so I think some 33+ oughta fix her up just fine. I've worked on a bunch of his stuff over the years. Heck, we've had some customers for over 50 years.

Good thing I do this stuff for fun. Everyone knows family businesses aren't real jobs, anyway.


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## FaultCurrent (May 13, 2014)

Politics are a major factor in allowing homeowners to do work in their own home.

In this state an owner-occupied homeowner can do work in his own house. The occupied provision keeps realtors from acting as unlicensed developers-general contractors by requiring them to used licensed contractors, even if they own the homes but don't live in them. Flippers have to use licensed contractors in theory.

Remember in the world of local politics voters have a long memory. The homeowner is king and his vote is highly prized. You can't pass a law that will piss off a bunch of homeowners. Hence many rules like requiring hardwired smoke detectors and other stuff don't apply to existing SFD's. 

Security bars is a big issue. Sadly there are stories about people dying not being able to get out in a fire. But politics makes coming down hard on homeowners that don't have inside releases installed a touchy issue. Make a law but don't enforce it.

A 100 unit apt. building owner is only one vote but 100 tenants are over 100 votes. So for better or for worse in local politics tenants and owners of SFD's have a lot of sway at the Council office.

Sometimes the homeowners bitch to the inspector about having to follow stupid codes. If they were only going to kill themselves that's one thing, but when they sell what about the unsuspecting new owner and his family?


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## janagyjr (Feb 7, 2011)

FaultCurrent said:


> Sometimes the homeowners bitch to the inspector about having to follow stupid codes. If they were only going to kill themselves that's one thing, but when they sell what about the unsuspecting new owner and his family?


That's why smart people hire home inspectors, then follow up with a walk-through by relevant contractors. I had a gig like that once. After a home inspector came across an FPE sub panel in an out building (see picture). I was called in to go over the entire electrical system and provide a report like the Home Inspector. Easiest (and scariest) $35 I ever made.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

janagyjr said:


> That's why smart people hire home inspectors, then follow up with a walk-through by relevant contractors. I had a gig like that once. After a home inspector came across an FPE sub panel in an out building (see picture). I was called in to go over the entire electrical system and provide a report like the Home Inspector. Easiest (and scariest) $35 I ever made.


If you provide an inspection and report, you really need Error & Omission insurance, which is very expensive. I hope you are kidding about the $35.


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## janagyjr (Feb 7, 2011)

I didn't know such insurance existed, and I'm not. I was treating it like giving an estimate as that is what was asked for initially. I gave an estimate, charged my fee for the estimate, and happened to include a report on my findings.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

janagyjr said:


> I didn't know such insurance existed, and I'm not. I was treating it like giving an estimate as that is what was asked for initially. I gave an estimate, charged my fee for the estimate, and happened to include a report on my findings.


It's gets a bit foggy between an estimate and report. Especially if the customer is expecting that report to show all deficiencies, or if you are stating that something is in working condition. 

Before doing that again, I would definitely talk to your insurance person.

Error & Omission insurance covers you when the customer sues you after something goes wrong because they said they felt safe due to your report saying it was fine, or not citing it as a problem. The report should have some lawyer written legalese in it as well.

A written estimate should just list the task description and price.


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## janagyjr (Feb 7, 2011)

HackWork said:


> It's gets a bit foggy between an estimate and report. Especially if the customer is expecting that report to show all deficiencies, or if you are stating that something is in working condition.
> 
> Before doing that again, I would definitely talk to your insurance person.
> 
> ...


I actually contacted my agent right after reading your earlier reply. In this case it didn't matter. This was back in September and the house still sits empty.


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## Byte (Oct 3, 2016)

I have heard and seen examples of what home inspectors do not find. Those omissions end up costing the homeowner. Unfortunately, banks require inspections and there are not enough "qualified" inspectors out there.


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## janagyjr (Feb 7, 2011)

Byte said:


> I have heard and seen examples of what home inspectors do not find. Those omissions end up costing the homeowner. Unfortunately, banks require inspections and there are not enough "qualified" inspectors out there.


I've heard the same, to be honest, but it's better than nothing.

How is it unfortunate that banks require them? They have a vested interest in the home, it's in their best interests to make sure they know as much about it as possible. If the individual took that much interest in potential purchases, there would be much less in the way of crappy homes because they just wouldn't sell.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

You do the best you can and are careful about the language you use. You don't have xray vision. You aren't going to remove building surfaces. You aren't going to take down every light fixture or open every junction box. You test some receptacles and some GFCI's, maybe all if you like. Maybe open some that give you that feeling... Knob and tube gets mentioned. I think the home buying process is a pain in the @ss.


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

Check county records & find out when it was actually built.


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## Rock knocker (Mar 8, 2016)

conclavicus said:


> When and where was the owner of a building exempted from having to hire a licensed electrician or contractor??? Was it always this way or was it the result of a trial case in the courts???


The underlying law was RCW 19.28.261 which modified earlier laws. So yes, the answer was it probably was always like this because the law can be followed to at least 1935



conclavicus said:


> I realize in such cases that NEC codes still apply and the property cannot be a for rental or for lease property to others.


You're wrong about that. The RCW is actually quite lenient http://www.lni.wa.gov/Forms/pdf/F500-094-000.pdf


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## conclavicus (Jul 25, 2016)

Rock knocker said:


> You're wrong about that. The RCW is actually quite lenient http://www.lni.wa.gov/Forms/pdf/F500-094-000.pdf


Here is how I read it. You are correct.

The owner is exempted from being a licensed electrician to do work on his own property (Residential ans Commercial). He must occupy it for 24 months. He has to have L&I (Labor and Industries is the AHJ?) inspect the work in WA (unless the City has its own Inspection process). He can hire a licensed electrician to help him for the work or as a consultant if he so wishes.

Am I reading it correctly????


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

conclavicus said:


> Here is how I read it. You are correct.
> 
> The owner is exempted from being a licensed electrician to do work on his own property (Residential ans Commercial). He must occupy it for 24 months. He has to have L&I (Labor and Industries is the AHJ?) inspect the work in WA (unless the City has its own Inspection process). *He can hire a licensed electrician to help him for the work or as a consultant if he so wishes.
> *
> Am I reading it correctly????



Because we're all after high liability, low paying jobs....:no:~CS~


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## [email protected] (Mar 13, 2017)

Not sure about any particular case reference that prompted the owner's right to perform his/her own mechanical work to their own property. Each state is different. In my state, the home owner's right to do so is protected by law, so long as it is carried out responsibly. Any negligence, carelessness, or code violations will be dealt with severely if erroneous work performance results in death, serious injury, or heavy loss of adjoining property(ies), which has been known to happen because the property owner wanted to save a few bucks or take a few short cuts to save time. 

For peace of mind, you can't beat following code when building, rebuilding, or even jack legging (throwing together) any structure. Since when does the fear of government intrusion over ride the rule of common sense? I say it never does. 

Common sense always prevails. I agree property owners should have the right to do what they want with their own property. But personally, I believe they should always want to act responsibly. No matter how they act, they will always in all situations be held accountable. The loss of a loved one in an electrical fire due to negligence or "brazenness" is a high price to pay for the right to ignore safety codes simply because one can or it's his right.

I encourage the DIY property owner trying to guard his budget and work within his/her expertise. In the same respect, I encourage them to call an expert when dealing with electrical or other mechanical issues that exceed their level of expertise. In all situations a DIYer should follow all recommended safety codes.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> Not sure about any particular case reference that prompted the owner's right to perform his/her own mechanical work to their own property. Each state is different. In my state, the home owner's right to do so is protected by law, so long as it is carried out responsibly. Any negligence, carelessness, or code violations will be dealt with severely if erroneous work performance results in death, serious injury, or heavy loss of adjoining property(ies), which has been known to happen because the property owner wanted to save a few bucks or take a few short cuts to save time.
> 
> For peace of mind, you can't beat following code when building, rebuilding, or even jack legging (throwing together) any structure. Since when does the fear of government intrusion over ride the rule of common sense? I say it never does.
> 
> ...


Many DIYers feel empowered by watching DIY tv shows or you tube videos and ther eis no mention of codes as a general rule. 

I like seeing many of those tv shows and often see things that violate codes I'm familiar with.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> *Common sense always prevails. *
> 
> I encourage the DIY property owner trying to guard his budget and work within his/her expertise. In the same respect, I encourage them to call an expert when dealing with electrical or other mechanical issues that exceed their level of expertise. In all situations a DIYer should follow all recommended safety codes.


Common sense rarely prevails! Especially when money is in play.

Welcome aboard by the way!

What kind of work do you do?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Many DIYers feel empowered by watching DIY tv shows or you tube videos and ther eis no mention of codes as a general rule.
> 
> I like seeing many of those tv shows and often see things that violate codes I'm familiar with.


Plus, those shows literally make people think they can do these big tasks in 30 minutes. 

This Old House has a guy doing a full service upgrade in his 11 minute segment, it looks so easy lol.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

HackWork said:


> Plus, those shows literally make people think they can do these big tasks in 30 minutes.
> 
> This Old House has a guy doing a full service upgrade in his 11 minute segment, it looks so easy lol.


You see the one where he ran underground up a hill to a shed for a sub panel?

http://www.pbs.org/video/2365949104/


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

Did he say or do anything to keep the trench from washing out?


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Bird dog said:


> Did he say or do anything to keep the trench from washing out?


Oh just watch the video. I can see a bunch of DIYers getting waist deep in problems.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MechanicalDVR said:


> You see the one where he ran underground up a hill to a shed for a sub panel?
> 
> http://www.pbs.org/video/2365949104/


Yup, lol. They are all on YouTube.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

HackWork said:


> This Old House has a guy doing a full service upgrade in his 11 minute segment, it looks so easy lol.


Maybe that was 220/221? :notworthy:


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Many DIYers feel empowered by watching DIY tv shows or you tube videos and ther eis no mention of codes as a general rule.
> 
> I like seeing many of those tv shows and often see things that violate codes I'm familiar with.


My fav is Renovation Realities.

The DIY Network edits out difficult work. It's too boring -- if not down right scary.

The result is that folks DIY themselves in over their heads -- and try to 'work in their sleep.' { 18-hour construction days = a daze }

Their budgets are also usually pretty screwy. ( insanely low )


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

telsa said:


> My fav is Renovation Realities.
> 
> The DIY Network edits out difficult work. It's too boring -- if not down right scary.
> 
> ...


Is that the one where they get hurt by their mistakes? 

Like collapsing decks and things like that...


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Is that the one where they get hurt by their mistakes?
> 
> Like collapsing decks and things like that...


Yup.

One memorable show the fella couldn't stop his sweated joints from leaking.

He'd wasted an entire Saturday screwing up over and over.

Another favorite: an interior decorator ( quite the queen ) was almost electrocuting himself. He had energized bare conductors all over his project. 

The camera crews are deliberately selected to be wholly ignorant about construction.

That way the DIY Network excludes all liability for advice. The camera crew couldn't give advice if they tried. 

&&&

One recurrent theme in most shows: the players want to gut a load bearing wall... and get amazingly far along before the light bulb goes on. 

The other theme is wasted effort// trashed surfaces ( by mistake ) -- and the never ending struggle to get stuff through doorways.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

telsa said:


> Yup.
> 
> One memorable show the fella couldn't stop his sweated joints from leaking.
> 
> ...


I've seen a few episodes and find them funny and annoying at the same time.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

MechanicalDVR said:


> I've seen a few episodes and find them funny and annoying at the same time.


My threshold tolerance for shear stupidity is often breached.


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## janagyjr (Feb 7, 2011)

I don't watch those shows. Too much crap for me to take in, I have enough to deal with from customer/clients to make my own reality show.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I like This Old House. The rest of the shows make me ill. Wife and daughter like to watch them. I live it and I can't stand to watch it on tv. Spent a whole bunch of time trying to fix what had to have been a homeowner wiring job (whole house) today. New three ways where there should have been single poles, dishwasher doesn't work anymore because its attached to bathroom ckt now run off a three way at one location, someone forgot a neutral and tied several to the metal box to pick up a return. Beautiful stuff.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

nrp3 said:


> I like This Old House. The rest of the shows make me ill. Wife and daughter like to watch them. I live it and I can't stand to watch it on tv. Spent a whole bunch of time trying to fix what had to have been a homeowner wiring job (whole house) today. New three ways where there should have been single poles, dishwasher doesn't work anymore because its attached to bathroom ckt now run off a three way at one location, someone forgot a neutral and tied several to the metal box to pick up a return. Beautiful stuff.


Lucky man.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

janagyjr said:


> I don't watch those shows. Too much crap for me to take in, I have enough to deal with from customer/clients to make my own reality show.


Those shows will give you some insight as to where the ideas your customers have originated.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

nrp3 said:


> I like This Old House. The rest of the shows make me ill. Wife and daughter like to watch them. I live it and I can't stand to watch it on tv. Spent a whole bunch of time trying to fix what had to have been a homeowner wiring job (whole house) today. New three ways where there should have been single poles, dishwasher doesn't work anymore because its attached to bathroom ckt now run off a three way at one location, someone forgot a neutral and tied several to the metal box to pick up a return. Beautiful stuff.


I like This Old House but back in the day they showed you a budget for the projects. Now one has to just surmise and it looks to me there is no person under a millionaire that could afford the projects they do.


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## janagyjr (Feb 7, 2011)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Those shows will give you some insight as to where the ideas your customers have originated.


I already assume that's where they get the idea. I'm bidding a rewiring of a home built sometime pre-1934 (had knob-and-tube wiring). Prior 'electrician' took the customer for a ride for $6k (ripped out /all/ the old wiring, despite some still being good (according to the customer) and never returned). They have wood lathe ceilings still in place in some rooms and are insisting on recessed lighting in those rooms (they have the height for ceiling suspended paddle fans if so desired, so not sure why the instance on recessed lighting). I think they got the idea for recessed lighting from some DIY show because they thought it looked good. Not sure how to get them in or the supports attached without ripping down the whole ceiling, but $$$ :thumbup: (we really need a money icon fo' sure).


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

janagyjr said:


> I already assume that's where they get the idea. I'm bidding a rewiring of a home built sometime pre-1934 (had knob-and-tube wiring). Prior 'electrician' took the customer for a ride for $6k (ripped out /all/ the old wiring, despite some still being good (according to the customer) and never returned). They have wood lathe ceilings still in place in some rooms and are insisting on recessed lighting in those rooms (they have the height for ceiling suspended paddle fans if so desired, so not sure why the instance on recessed lighting). I think they got the idea for recessed lighting from some DIY show because they thought it looked good. Not sure how to get them in or the supports attached without ripping down the whole ceiling, but $$$ :thumbup: (we really need a money icon fo' sure).


Cans are installed in plaster ceilings all the time. Is this not a standard practice down your way?

What is the connection between ceiling fans and recessed lights, you lost me there?


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## janagyjr (Feb 7, 2011)

Easier to put up an old work box rated for a ceiling fan then get a recessed can installed in an existing (non-plaster) hardwood ceiling.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Why would you rip down the whole ceiling to get recessed lights in and the "supports attached"?

Drill a hole thru the plaster with a grip holesaw, finish thru the wood lath with a normal toothed holesaw, then insert the old work trim and clip it up.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

janagyjr said:


> Easier to put up an old work box rated for a ceiling fan then get a recessed can installed *in an existing* (non-plaster) *hardwood ceiling*.


Just how exotic is this ceiling ?

Is it on the historic register ?


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

janagyjr said:


> Prior 'electrician' took the customer for a ride for $6k (ripped out /all/ the old wiring, despite some still being good (according to the customer) and never returned).


2 possibilities:

1. Do decent work for fair but profitable price, after bad previous experience customer will be overjoyed;

2. He'll complain just as much about next electrician as previous electrician

Have seen it go both ways


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

readydave8 said:


> 2 possibilities:
> 
> 1. Do decent work for fair but profitable price, after bad previous experience customer will be overjoyed;
> 
> ...


3. The customer is a nut and has no clue about anything electrical.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Take a look at Lithonia's new shallow led recessed lighting. No housing. I have used these in raised panel wood ceilings before. While they look slightly different than the led or incandescent trims we are used to, they aren't bad. Allows you to dodge plumbing easier than an old work housing.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

nrp3 said:


> Take a look at Lithonia's new shallow led recessed lighting. No housing. I have used these in raised panel wood ceilings before. While they look slightly different than the led or incandescent trims we are used to, they aren't bad. Allows you to dodge plumbing easier than an old work housing.


Do you mean the Lotus style lights? The Lithonia WF6 and WF4?

While I agree they are easier to install than typical old work recessed lights, and you don't have to worry about framing or joists being in the way, they still require you to cut the plaster and wood lath the same way, which seems to be what his issue is.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

janagyjr said:


> Easier to put up an old work box rated for a ceiling fan then get a recessed can installed in an existing *(non-plaster) hardwood ceiling.*


Do you mean like a 3/8" or 1/2" bead board ceiling?


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## sparkiez (Aug 1, 2015)

janagyjr said:


> I already assume that's where they get the idea. I'm bidding a rewiring of a home built sometime pre-1934 (had knob-and-tube wiring). Prior 'electrician' took the customer for a ride for $6k (ripped out /all/ the old wiring, despite some still being good (according to the customer) and never returned). They have wood lathe ceilings still in place in some rooms and are insisting on recessed lighting in those rooms (they have the height for ceiling suspended paddle fans if so desired, so not sure why the instance on recessed lighting). I think they got the idea for recessed lighting from some DIY show because they thought it looked good. Not sure how to get them in or the supports attached without ripping down the whole ceiling, but $$$ :thumbup: (we really need a money icon fo' sure).


Progress lighting has some really cool flush mount LED fixtures. We use them all the time. They look like a recessed can light, but clip on to a regular round box, octagon box, square box, anything really. P8107-20/30K9 is an example of a 5.5" one.

As far as knob and tube, I just learned recently that not everyone has had to deal with that stuff. Lucky them. Our area has lots of 1900-era homes (I've worked on homes built in the 1860's and still wired with knob and tube and fuse boxes. When dealing with existing, you have a lot more variables. I should have taken pictures of this house, converted apartment, then back to house where we removed 3 meter cans inside of a wooden cabinet and roughly 9 panel boxes / disconnects and put in a 200A service and are now troubleshooting and getting it all working. Properly. Tons of addons over the years. The job is difficult enough without having to try and teach a guy that said "I already know how to do this," and "I thought I knew how to do this until I started working with you guys," in the same day.

Gotta love farmers too. I'm working on a house out in the country where the work was done by a farmer. Demo walls and several runs of romex are not even going through studs, just pinched in between the the walls and studs. All of it damaged. The guy's 5 year old daughter's room has a hot ground and of course, "We just unhooked the ground because it was tripping the breaker." Lots of work ahead for me there too.

Back to the original post, though, our code requirements here state that any time a wire is ran, you need a permit. Some electricians around here will allow you to pull a permit for a fee under stipulation that you adhere to their requests for work to be corrected prior to the inspection. If not, the permit gets revoked and the inspector shows up asking when you are hiring a licensed electrician. When the permits are pulled, you are required to bring the service and smoke / CO detectors up to code.


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## OldMasterTech (Mar 12, 2014)

Massachusetts allows homeowners to perform electrical work but permits are issued at the discretion of the inspector.
The inspector for my region (multiple towns) has a policy of refusing permits to non licensed individuals.
I ponder the wisdom of his policy as it results in uninspected work being performed while I understand his goal of only licensed professionals doing the work. 
Comments? Do you agree with him?


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

OldMasterTech said:


> Massachusetts allows homeowners to perform electrical work but permits are issued at the discretion of the inspector.
> The inspector for my region (multiple towns) has a policy of refusing permits to non licensed individuals.
> I ponder the wisdom of his policy as it results in uninspected work being performed while I understand his goal of only licensed professionals doing the work.
> Comments? Do you agree with him?


I think it makes more sense to give any one a permit so the work gets inspected and you know it is fairly well done to code rather than not issue them and get a ton of hacks doing uninspected work.


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