# scraps



## duff7830 (Apr 29, 2008)

know a few people in the trade and they swear that every week they make a killing selling there scrap metal for money. is this legit or are they just B.Sin me and its just a once in a while little extra chump change kinda thing?


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

Every company I have worked for the journeymen let the apprentices take the scrap and yes it adds up fast. For the guys doing a lot of service upgrades and larger wire pulls, it more than pays their gas and coffeee for the week. We had a few pieces of 9" x 1/2" copper ground buss from a job recently and the helper that took that in has been buying morning coffee for the guys that told him to take it in since.


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## amptech (Sep 21, 2007)

I had a lot of end pieces of 500kcmil and 4/0 left over last Sept. from a church job. Me and a buddy spent 3 hours on a Sunday afternoon stripping it all and took it to a scrapyard the next day. It weighed in at [email protected] $3.25 a pound! I had no idea we had that much weight or that it was worth that much a pound.


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## BryanMD (Dec 31, 2007)

And then there are the jobsites where there is an actual conscious effort made to create scraps. 
Ever see electricians forget to load up enough CJ's or batwings etc onto their cart in the morning but NONE ever forget to have their box or bucket to put scraps into?
Ever see branch circuit MC pulled with WAY extra length at each end?
Hmmm.


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## amptech (Sep 21, 2007)

I have seen what you are talking about and yes, it is wrong. It amounts to stealing, as far as I am concerned. But when you have 16 runs of 500kcmil 240' long and it comes on 1000' rolls, you are going to have some unusable lengths left over. I used to give my scrap to my neighbor until he started burning the insulation off in his driveway and choking me out of my house. I save it now and strip it myself.


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## Ecopat (Apr 17, 2008)

Burning is bad isnt it, I save mine and strip it all so its clean, some scrapyards give you better money over here for that, I usualy way it in when it gets to 100K.


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

One of the guys I used to work with had an elaborate set up in his garage with a table saw and a jig to run the wire through and slit the insulation and a hydraulic press with a axe type blade for big cable and a home made power hack saw. We all laughed at his invebtions til he mentioned that was how he paid for his kids college expences.


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## Trimix-leccy (Dec 4, 2007)

Ecopat...what are you getting per kg for bright copper at the moment?:thumbsup:


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## Ecopat (Apr 17, 2008)

Last month it was £3.200 per tonne, I dont know what it is now.


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## RUSSIAN (Mar 4, 2008)

I currently work for Rosendin Electric and they have a strict policy that all scrap belongs to the company, no exceptions. I can understand with the large shops though. the previous contractor I worked for was small and let his employees have all scrap, and it was usually split between the crew. With the price of scrap copper, most journeyman have trouble not getting there share these days....


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

I don't know why this is under the Union Topics forum, as it isn't a union issue.

The best company policy I've seen is one where employees are required to collect the scraps and return them to the shop. They were collected there, and occasionally a recycler would arrive to take it away. At the end of the year, the money the company made from the scraps was used to fund the annual company Christmas party. So if we took the scraps back as required, we'd get steaks instead of chicken, and an open bar as opposed to a cash one..

*Scrap belongs to the person who pays for it, not the person who installs it. If you take scrap without asking for it, you are stealing. Period.*


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## HighWirey (Sep 17, 2007)

amptech said:


> I have seen what you are talking about and yes, it is wrong. It amounts to stealing, as far as I am concerned. But when you have 16 runs of 500kcmil 240' long and it comes on 1000' rolls, you are going to have some unusable lengths left over. I used to give my scrap to my neighbor until he started burning the insulation off in his driveway and choking me out of my house. I save it now and strip it myself.


We always had larger pulls cut to length by the vendor, delivered to the site, and already triplexed. Less waste, less labor, less muss and fuss. Let someone else be concerned with those odd lengths of copper. I know, I paid a little premium for the service, but was _always_ better off in the long run.

As usual 480 is on time with his advice "Scrap belongs to the person who pays for it, not the person who installs it. If you take scrap without asking for it, you are stealing. Period".

My orbit was mostly the goverment arena. Any material delivered onto a US goverment project is the property of the US Goverment. That means if you overestimate the amount of pipe, wire, or whatever, and it is _delivered to the project_, any excess is the property of the US Government.

Same technoledgy applies everywhere . . .

Work'in For That Free Tee . . .


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## amptech (Sep 21, 2007)

Just to clarify, I am the company, I did pay for it, the scrap is mine. As for having the wire cut to length and re-spooled, I will keep the .20 per foot handling charge from the supply house($768.00 on this job) and cash in my scrap. Even if I measure exactly from point to point for a pull I always add 10' to allow for the pulling head and just to be safe so there will always be some scrap on my pulls. It is cheaper than one of those wire stretchers you hear about.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

amptech said:


> Just to clarify, I am the company, I did pay for it, the scrap is mine.


That's understandable. But not necesarrily always true. Suppose you pull existing copper out of a raceway in order to replace it with new? Who 'owns' the old wire?

Unless I reach an agreement with the property owner, it's thiers. True, I'll speak to the owner at the beginning of the job if we're looking at a substantial amount of wire. I'll mention to them that my bid can be reduced a bit if they want me to take the wire and recycle it for them.


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## amptech (Sep 21, 2007)

Well, that's a whole other subject but I do agree with you. My policy in upgrade situations is this: Conductors and equipment which are to be removed/replaced as part of the contracted job will be dealt with in one of 2 ways, to be determined by the property owner prior to the signing of the contract work agreement. 1) Conductors/equipment/materials wrecked out as part of the demo will be disposed of by the contractor. Or 2) Conductors/equipment/materials wrecked out as part of the demo will be disposed of by the property owner. That's been a standard provision in my contract work agreements for 20 years. It wasn't necessitated over salvage rights. It was needed to clarify who had the right/responsibility to add or remove debris from the job dumpster. I would include in my contract a 22yd. dumpster for the job and the owner would fill it with trash from everywhere. I would have to pay for a second or third container just to get the trash off of the job. I have had customers dump furniture, landscape timbers, swing sets, appliances(which are not allowed in the landfill), old cans of paint(also not allowed), carpet, concrete and dead livestock! Sorry folks, that's not part of my work agreement.


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

I have never been on a job where the contractor asked for the scrap nor has anyone ever hidden the fact that it was given to the apprentices. On smaller jobs where it was basically myself and a helper or two, we all split it. But I have never been the type of guy that would cut up wire on a reel just to junk it.


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## HighWirey (Sep 17, 2007)

480sparky said:


> That's understandable. But not necesarrily always true. Suppose you pull existing copper out of a raceway in order to replace it with new? Who 'owns' the old wire?
> 
> Unless I reach an agreement with the property owner, it's thiers. True, I'll speak to the owner at the beginning of the job if we're looking at a substantial amount of wire. I'll mention to them that my bid can be reduced a bit if they want me to take the wire and recycle it for them.


I have only done one _real _commercial project in 22 years, for Orlando Utilities Commission. I was very clear in my proposal that the removed cable was my property. It so happens that the removed cable 'weighed out' to 12,000 pounds of clean copper. Santa was generous that year . . .

My point is 'nail it down' prior to getting yourself in a bind. And you will sleep better.

Work'in For That Free Tee . . .


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## HighWirey (Sep 17, 2007)

amptech said:


> Just to clarify, I am the company, I did pay for it, the scrap is mine. As for having the wire cut to length and re-spooled, I will keep the .20 per foot handling charge from the supply house($768.00 on this job) and cash in my scrap. Even if I measure exactly from point to point for a pull I always add 10' to allow for the pulling head and just to be safe so there will always be some scrap on my pulls. It is cheaper than one of those wire stretchers you hear about.


Yes, we always 'tru-taped' and added the make up. You must consider the vendor's premium vs the the jobsite handling labor, the cost of those 'drops' from a standard vended length, handling of those drops, plus 'shrinkage' of the drops before they arrive back at your shop, then inventorying and storing the drops for the next project. There is no contest. Dust off your calculator and pay that premium. Cheaper, quicker, and better . . .

Work'in For That Free Tee . . .


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## Mountain Electrician (Jan 22, 2007)

480sparky said:


> That's understandable. But not necesarrily always true. Suppose you pull existing copper out of a raceway in order to replace it with new? Who 'owns' the old wire?
> 
> Unless I reach an agreement with the property owner, it's thiers. True, I'll speak to the owner at the beginning of the job if we're looking at a substantial amount of wire. I'll mention to them that my bid can be reduced a bit if they want me to take the wire and recycle it for them.


Just moved the safety lockouts for (non fused discos) and re-fed 7 motors ranging from 30 to 50 HP. This was a T&M project, and the customer asked me to remove tho old PVC jacked armored cable. I offered to strip and scrap it and give them back 15% to which they agreed. Win-win situation. My 17 year old son has a bunch of wire stripping ahead of him this summer!


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## nap (Dec 26, 2007)

amptech said:


> Just to clarify, I am the company, I did pay for it, the scrap is mine. .


that would all depend on how the contract is written. I have had many jobs where the EC has scrap rights as part of the contract. In others the EC was simply instructed to get rid of everything so once it hits the dumpster, it is up for grabs.

With that said, yes, if there is no prior agreement, it is yours.


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## amptech (Sep 21, 2007)

If a contractor bids a job to install (fill in the blank) from point A to point B for $xxxx.xx that is what the customer gets. All scrap conductor, conduit, extra fittings and hardware that were brought onto the job but were not used are the sole property of the contractor. Period. I don't sell EMT by the inch. If I use more than 5' of a 10' section on the job the customer is paying for the whole 10' section. However, if I bring a 100 count box of EMT connectors on the job but only use 82, the customer only gets charged for 82. There is a difference between scrap and surplus. Scrap may be usable on another job, maybe not. Surplus materials are readily usable on the next job without question. As far as "scrap rights" are concerned, I think I covered my position on that in post #15.


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## nap (Dec 26, 2007)

Sorry folks. I caught the part about the salvage from a job, not the "trimmings".

I absolutely agree with your position amptech. The cutoffs are not the premises owners material. It is the EC's. The salvage material is what I was speaking to and I thought that was what you were addressing.

There is a difference between scrap, surplus, and salvage. The only one that would belong to the premises owner would be the salvage and only if the contract did not state otherwise.

For some reason I was reading your post (Amptech) as you being the premisis owner, not the EC.


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## sparky970 (Mar 19, 2008)

We used to save our scrap until we had about 5000 lbs. When it was cashed in, 1/2 the money went to the hall and the rest went in our fund to stock our lunch room or have lunch on Friday's. Several years ago, work was a little slow and our boss didn't want to lay anyone off. He struck a deal with the mill we were at and they let us scrap wire in an area that was to be demolished to pay our wages. This kept 7 people working for 6 weeks. When it was all said and done, we had cashed in almost $50K worth of scrap.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

480sparky said:


> I don't know why this is under the Union Topics forum, as it isn't a union issue.
> 
> The best company policy I've seen is one where employees are required to collect the scraps and return them to the shop. They were collected there, and occasionally a recycler would arrive to take it away. At the end of the year, the money the company made from the scraps was used to fund the annual company Christmas party. So if we took the scraps back as required, we'd get steaks instead of chicken, and an open bar as opposed to a cash one..
> 
> *Scrap belongs to the person who pays for it, not the person who installs it. If you take scrap without asking for it, you are stealing. Period.*


The best company policy I've seen is one where the company and the employees sat down and formed a written policy that both agree to abide by. :thumbup:

Now, if you think the amount of scrap generated by a company is ONLY enough to cover a party once a year with an open bar, I have a nice hot tub to show you otherwise.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> ....Now, if you think the amount of scrap generated by a company is ONLY enough to cover a party once a year with an open bar, I have a nice hot tub to show you otherwise.


Usually at these parties, there are things called 'bonus' or "Christmas' checks that get handed out. New tools (cordless drills, sawzalls, etc.) for everyone as well.

I'll state it again. If you didn't pay for it, and took it home anyway, you stole it. Pure and simple.


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## nap (Dec 26, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> The best company policy I've seen is one where the company and the employees sat down and formed a written policy that both agree to abide by. :thumbup:
> 
> Now, if you think the amount of scrap generated by a company is ONLY enough to cover a party once a year with an open bar, I have a nice hot tub to show you otherwise.


well, the last company that claimed they used the scrap sales for a Christmas party spent around $50k for that party. We had prime rib and a full open bar for over 300 employees and family. Hotel rooms for those too drunk to drive and a cab ride there or a cab ride home if within the county.

We also got a Christmas bonus plus a ham or turkey for home.

This was back when copper was anywhere from 75 cents to a couple bucks a pound. Took a lot of scrap to buy those parties.

so, about that hot tub......:whistling2:

I agree that a written policy is great but realistically, I have known very few contractors that did not simply expect the rabbit to come home. In those cases, the installer taking it home is stealing. Without an agreement, it is also stealing.


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## HighWirey (Sep 17, 2007)

randomkiller said:


> I have never been on a job where the contractor asked for the scrap nor has anyone ever hidden the fact that it was given to the apprentices. On smaller jobs where it was basically myself and a helper or two, we all split it. But I have never been the type of guy that would cut up wire on a reel just to junk it.


I still communicate with a few of my former competitors. Now-a-daz, one of the items in all of their company handbooks deals with that rabbit. It _all _belongs to the company, except on a government installation, no exceptions. 

New hires sign the last page of the handbook. Any infractions, and it is 'count those insulators' sir.

As far as those parties fueled by scrap rabbits, they still exist, but no more booze. Too many 'smoke shovellers' in our faces today.

I may not necessarily agree, however this is 2008. 

Work'in For That Free Tee . . .


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

HighWirey said:


> I still communicate with a few of my former competitors. Now-a-daz, one of the items in all of their company handbooks deals with that rabbit. It _all _belongs to the company, except on a government installation, no exceptions.
> I may not necessarily agree, however this is 2008.
> Work'in For That Free Tee . . .


 
With the price of scrap copper now I can see it would be a huge issue and you would have guys that a few years ago wouldn't look twice think about how to "cash in" a few pounds if no one is looking. I did a lot of service work at my last employer and I had a few milk crates of small pieces of various wire on the van all the time. I would use them for appliance whips and that type of thing rather than get rid of them. Those would be going to the junker more often than not now I guess with most guys.


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

This thread reminded me of a related one from a few months back.

http://www.electriciantalk.com/showthread.php?t=1523


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

randomkiller said:


> With the price of scrap copper now I can see it would be a huge issue and you would have guys that a few years ago wouldn't look twice think about how to "cash in" a few pounds if no one is looking. I did a lot of service work at my last employer and I had a few milk crates of small pieces of various wire on the van all the time. I would use them for appliance whips and that type of thing rather than get rid of them. Those would be going to the junker more often than not now I guess with most guys.


Not me.Compare wire by the ft. compared to scrap $. Those 6 foot peices get me more money.Of course my storage is getting cluttered,but any nice pieces of rabbit,I measure and mark lenght and AWG.

Happy Memorial Day


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

480sparky said:


> Usually at these parties, there are things called 'bonus' or "Christmas' checks that get handed out. New tools (cordless drills, sawzalls, etc.) for everyone as well.


Everybody gets new tools as required, not as Christmas gifts. Bonus checks are simply held-back carrots on a stick. If you getting 500 bucks at Christmas, It's because you didn't get it on the check every week. Bonuses for performance is simply a way of pitting every worker against each other to outperform. It's a race to the bottom. Double your productivity and get a nice check. The math never quite works out to favor anyone but the boss. 



> I'll state it again. If you didn't pay for it, and took it home anyway, you stole it. Pure and simple.


If it would have ended up in the dumpster otherwise, it's redirected site debris, and I'll ask the GC for something as well for saving him the carting fees. :thumbup:


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## BP_redbear (Jun 22, 2008)

So this from a first year IBEW apprentice Inside Wireman:

Show up on job first day. First task is to organize and tidy up one of our storage trailers, and get accustomed to some of the supplies that we are using.

I am pretty good at organizing, so shelves get organized like a hardware store, true garbage goes in trash can...

meanwhile, i am putting scraps of wire in a pile because I know that it can be recycled for money.

When the boss came by to see how I was doing, then to take me to where the JWs were working, I showed him the pile of wire and asked if 'we' collect this.
He said 'Hey, if you want it, start a collection. It will add up over time'.
I said "What I meant is does The Company keep this and turn it in for $$ ?"

He told me to keep any scraps that I find...So is this stealing ???

I realize there is a debate going on about 6in. pieces of clippings vs. 6ft pieces and what is truly 'necessary' scrap vs. intentional or just wasteful because "I didn't buy it" mentallity...

I stop.


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## gilbequick (Oct 6, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Bonuses for performance is simply a way of pitting every worker against each other to outperform. It's a race to the bottom. Double your productivity and get a nice check. The math never quite works out to favor anyone but the boss.


Hmmm....more pay for more work. As hard as I try, I still can't see the flaw in that. Bonuses don't "pit every worker against each other" they motivate the ones who want more to do more.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

> Hmmm....more pay for more work. As hard as I try, I still can't see the flaw in that. Bonuses don't "pit every worker against each other" they motivate the ones who want more to do more.


and the slackers whine

Let me see 25 years in business this fall all union employees that get above union bennies, and even EVIL BONUSES, still have my first employee and I have never laid off a productive worker, fired a few. and even these were on a 3 strike policy!


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