# Crazy inspector?



## BBQ

Not crazy

*334.15(C) In Unfinished Basements and Crawl Spaces.* Where
cable is run at angles with joists in unfinished basements
and crawl spaces, it shall be permissible to secure cables
not smaller than two 6 AWG or three 8 AWG conductors
directly to the lower edges of the joists. Smaller cables
shall be run either through bored holes in joists or on running
boards. NM cable installed on the wall of an unfinished
basement shall be permitted to be installed in a listed
conduit or tubing or shall be protected in accordance with
300.4. Conduit or tubing shall be provided with a suitable
insulating bushing or adapter at the point the cable enters
the raceway. The NM cable sheath shall extend through the
conduit or tubing and into the outlet or device box not less
than 6 mm (1⁄4 in.). The cable shall be secured within
300 mm (12 in.) of the point where the cable enters the
conduit or tubing. Metal conduit, tubing, and metal outlet
boxes shall be connected to an equipment grounding conductor.


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## thegoldenboy

Yeah, he got you.

Art. 334.15 (C)



> (C) In Unfinished Basements and Crawl Spaces. Where
> cable is run at angles with joists in unfinished basements
> and crawl spaces, it shall be permissible to secure cables
> not smaller than two 6 AWG or three 8 AWG conductors
> directly to the lower edges of the joists. Smaller cables
> shall be run either through bored holes in joists or on running
> boards. NM cable installed on the wall of an unfinished
> basement shall be permitted to be installed in a listed
> conduit or tubing or shall be protected in accordance with
> 300.4. Conduit or tubing shall be provided with a suitable
> insulating bushing or adapter at the point the cable enters
> the raceway. The NM cable sheath shall extend through the
> conduit or tubing and into the outlet or device box not less
> than 6 mm (1⁄4 in.). The cable shall be secured within
> 300 mm (12 in.) of the point where the cable enters the
> conduit or tubing. Metal conduit, tubing, and metal outlet
> boxes shall be connected to an equipment grounding conductor.


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## chicken steve

> Is this standard in the romex world?


pretty much so, although i find the cloths line deal a tad overdone, and just as unapplicable w/#6 range wire.....

~CS~


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## running dummy

Thanks for the input guys. Like I said it's a remodel and 99% of the wiring in the basement was existing. I didn't catch it when I bid the job so it looks like I'm going to eat this one. Live and learn


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## sparky711

Learned that one the hard way too. 3rd day on the job the journeyman i was working with showed me where to run the romex but neglected to show me the holes he drilled to run it through. Long and short I ran over 150' only to have to take it down and re-run it the right way. Guess he also learned never to assume a first year apprentice knows the code.


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## RGH

What you could do is pick up some 1"pine and screw it to joist next to romex each side then you are ok.


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## Mr Rewire

A 1x6 works great


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## RGH

The 1x6 is a great way to go over cold air returns as well.(at rt angle). It is still best to drill the holes...if I had a nickel for every hole I drilled....I could buy the hearing aide I need from dilling them lol.


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## den

I got called on this also on the floor joists of a second floor that was going to have a drop ceiling under the wires. I said it wasn't a basment or crawl space but insp didn't care. had to change it.


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## BBQ

den said:


> I got called on this also on the floor joists of a second floor that was going to have a drop ceiling under the wires. I said it wasn't a basment or crawl space but insp didn't care. had to change it.


In this case (A) applies not (C)



> 334.15 Exposed Work. In exposed work, except as provided
> in 300.11(A), cable shall be installed as specified in
> 334.15(A) through (C).
> 
> *(A) To Follow Surface. Cable shall closely follow the surface
> of the building finish or of running boards.*


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## den

So is it supported if it is laying on the drop ceiling grid?


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## jwjrw

running dummy said:


> Thanks for the input guys. Like I said it's a remodel and 99% of the wiring in the basement was existing. I didn't catch it when I bid the job so it looks like I'm going to eat this one. Live and learn



If it was existing why is he even looking at it? Here they can only look at the work the permit specifies.


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## RGH

den said:


> So is it supported if it is laying on the drop ceiling grid?


No read 300.11(a) you cannot just lay it on top it must be secured


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## Mr Rewire

Mr Rewire said:


> A 1x6 works great


 This was the "before"


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## RGH

Great example of "cleaning it up" I do lots of work in old homes and use the same method. I like to use pine easier to staple into than plywood. Nice job.


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## don_resqcapt19

The "running board" rule makes no sense. You are permitted to run the cables through holes in the joists and the NM installed that way makes a better hanger then NM run on the bottom of the joists.


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## kaboler

RGH said:


> Great example of "cleaning it up" I do lots of work in old homes and use the same method. I like to use pine easier to staple into than plywood. Nice job.


Spruce > pine.


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## RGH

kaboler said:


> Spruce > pine.


 As in the greatest of the pine(evergreen) family? lol


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## RGH

don_resqcapt19 said:


> The "running board" rule makes no sense. You are permitted to run the cables through holes in the joists and the NM installed that way makes a better hanger then NM run on the bottom of the joists.


 I dont think it was written for new installations persa but for retro/repair work. It is always neater to drill,em and pull em. You're tring to correct the h/os mess or what some hack left. You know they don,t have the $30 nail eater like we have.


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## kaboler

RGH said:


> As in the greatest of the pine(evergreen) family? lol


Duud, if I asked you if you wanted Spruce or Fir to frame your house in, whad' you choose? Without wikipediaing it.


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## RGH

kaboler said:


> Duud, if I asked you if you wanted Spruce or Fir to frame your house in, whad' you choose? Without wikipediaing it.


 My home was built in '98 douglas fir was spec, cost more better wood I belive you can get away with spruce but is softer I think southern yellow pine is even better? IDK about that one


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## Sparksaplenty

I have never understood why electricians still go through all the trouble of drilling and pulling all the way across an unfinished basement. It is just a ridiculous waste of time and it usually looks like crap. Running boards are only marginally better looking or faster.
In areas where I don't have a center girder or sill plates, my biggest friend is the Arlington Cableway system.
http://www.aifittings.com/catalog/n...upports/cableway-cable-runway-support-system/
Just hang the brackets, run the wires, and when you're done install the covers. It looks neat and professional. Even the inspectors are impressed. 
And the best part is that it's fast and cheap.


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## HARRY304E

Sparksaplenty said:


> I have never understood why electricians still go through all the trouble of drilling and pulling all the way across an unfinished basement. It is just a ridiculous waste of time and it usually looks like crap. Running boards are only marginally better looking or faster.
> In areas where I don't have a center girder or sill plates, my biggest friend is the Arlington Cableway system.
> http://www.aifittings.com/catalog/n...upports/cableway-cable-runway-support-system/
> Just hang the brackets, run the wires, and when you're done install the covers. It looks neat and professional. Even the inspectors are impressed.
> And the best part is that it's fast and cheap.


Looks like a good idea.


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## Big John

don_resqcapt19 said:


> ...You are permitted to run the cables through holes in the joists and the NM installed that way makes a better hanger then NM run on the bottom of the joists.


 It's a stretch, but maybe they think the staples are much more likely to cut into the wire?


Sparksaplenty said:


> I...In areas where I don't have a center girder or sill plates, my biggest friend is the Arlington Cableway system....


 I think it would be silly, but seems like you could get cited for bundling using that.

-John


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## te12co2w

I've seen plenty of things hung on basement wires, whether run through the joists or stapled on the bottom. Heck my own parents hung their laundry on wires in their basement laundry room. I like to drill the joists in basements, but crawl spaces are another matter. I've been in crawl spaces barely deep enough to crawl through, let alone drag a drill and cord, and tools, and wire through.


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## McClary’s Electrical

Big John said:


> It's a stretch, but maybe they think the staples are much more likely to cut into the wire? I think it would be silly, but seems like you could get cited for bundling using that.
> 
> -John


I agree, imo it's for low voltage cabling


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## user4818

I've been doing resi work for a long while now, and I just don't see people using wires as hangers the way some of you suggest. It seems people inherently equate a wire with danger so they just don't touch them. Physical damage to NM cable is highly overrated.


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## jmsmith

Are these the same people who don't think nothing of storing flammable materials in an electrical room or transformer vault? Just thinking out loud here.....
:blink:


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## te12co2w

I like the looks of that cable system, but I have always been afraid an inspector would make me derate if I jammed a bunch of cables in there.


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## HARRY304E

te12co2w said:


> I've seen plenty of things hung on basement wires, whether run through the joists or stapled on the bottom. Heck my own parents hung their laundry on wires in their basement laundry room. I like to drill the joists in basements, but crawl spaces are another matter. I've been in crawl spaces barely deep enough to crawl through, let alone drag a drill and cord, and tools, and wire through.



I wander if they were using metal clothes pin's...:laughing:


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## thegoldenboy

mcclary's electrical said:


> I agree, imo it's for low voltage cabling


It says line or low voltage on the site, so if it's listed, why throw it out as a possible option someday? It's definitely an upsell item.


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## Big John

thegoldenboy said:


> It says line or low voltage on the site, so if it's listed....


 The listing doesn't absolve it of applying to code. If you fill it full of Romex an inspector would be within their rights to call it bundling and make you derate. 

Just an idea: If you put a running board in and then attached cable stackers to the running board, would that fly? Or does that not "closely follow" the building surface...?









-John


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## McClary’s Electrical

thegoldenboy said:


> It says line or low voltage on the site, so if it's listed, why throw it out as a possible option someday? It's definitely an upsell item.


 
You can use it,but more than 9 ccc's and you're in trouble. That's not much help in my opinion.


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## RGH

:no:I think this inspector is going by 334.15 refeneces 320.23 attic sounds strange its a crawl space but it states 7' limit. Boy its a strech but idk?


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## user4818

I wouldn't worry about derating NM cable in that Arlington system in a dwelling unit. I know it's not code compliant for a big bundle of cables, but due to load diversity and most resi circuits being very lightly loaded, it would not concern me in the least.


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## thegoldenboy

mcclary's electrical said:


> You can use it,but more than 9 ccc's and you're in trouble. That's not much help in my opinion.


Do you consider that stuff a raceway or more of a cable tray? 310.15 (B) vs. 392.11. You would still have to derate a little as per 392.11 (A) (2).


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## McClary’s Electrical

thegoldenboy said:


> Do you consider that stuff a raceway or more of a cable tray? 310.15 (B) vs. 392.11. You would still have to derate a little as per 392.11 (A) (2).


 

I consider it a raceway. What about you?


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## SEREMan2000

the arly system tells you how many of what you can fit in it under the spec sheet


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## thegoldenboy

mcclary's electrical said:


> I consider it a raceway. What about you?


I'm leaning towards cable tray. Without contacting Arlington directly, their system is something I wouldn't think is listed for individual conductors.


*Cable Tray System.* 
A unit or assembly of units or sections
and associated fittings forming a structural system used to​securely fasten or support cables and raceways.
 
*Raceway.* ​​
An enclosed channel of metal or nonmetallic
materials designed expressly for holding wires, cables, or
busbars, with additional functions as permitted in this​
_Code_​​. Raceways include, but are not limited to, rigid metal​


conduit, rigid nonmetallic conduit, intermediate metal conduit,
liquidtight flexible conduit, flexible metallic tubing,
flexible metal conduit, electrical nonmetallic tubing,
electrical metallic tubing, underfloor raceways, cellular
concrete floor raceways, cellular metal floor raceways,​surface raceways, wireways, and busways.​​​​
​​​​
Just my current interpretation. I'll contact Arlington and see what they classify it as.​


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## McClary’s Electrical

thegoldenboy said:


> I'm leaning towards cable tray. Without contacting Arlington directly, their system is something I wouldn't think is listed for individual conductors.
> 
> 
> *Cable Tray System.*
> ​​A unit or assembly of units or sections​
> and associated fittings forming a structural system used to​​​
> securely fasten or support cables and raceways.​
> 
> *Raceway.* ​​​​​​​
> 
> ​​An enclosed channel of metal or nonmetallic​
> materials designed expressly for holding wires, cables, or
> busbars, with additional functions as permitted in this​​​
> 
> 
> _Code_​. Raceways include, but are not limited to, rigid metal​
> 
> 
> 
> conduit, rigid nonmetallic conduit, intermediate metal conduit,
> liquidtight flexible conduit, flexible metallic tubing,
> flexible metal conduit, electrical nonmetallic tubing,
> electrical metallic tubing, underfloor raceways, cellular
> concrete floor raceways, cellular metal floor raceways,​​​
> surface raceways, wireways, and busways.​​​​​​​
> Just my current interpretation. I'll contact Arlington and see what they classify it as.​


 
Conductors ran on a cable tray are in free air. Conductors ran on this system are not.


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## thegoldenboy

mcclary's electrical said:


> Conductors ran on a cable tray are in free air. Conductors ran on this system are not.


Which is why you would have to derate according to 392.11(A)(2), which derates the cable assemblies individually rather than collectively as in 310.15 (B).

It would allow you to put more cables within the assembly if it were classified as a cable tray over a raceway.

Edit:

I know you said conductors, not cable assemblies. I don't want to stray to far off topic as this is a residential situation. 392 doesn't permit open conductors to be installed in covered cable trays, probably because it would then turn into a raceway in that instance.


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## RIVETER

BBQ said:


> Not crazy
> 
> *334.15(C) In Unfinished Basements and Crawl Spaces.* Where
> cable is run at angles with joists in unfinished basements
> and crawl spaces, it shall be permissible to secure cables
> not smaller than two 6 AWG or three 8 AWG conductors
> directly to the lower edges of the joists. Smaller cables
> shall be run either through bored holes in joists or on running
> boards. NM cable installed on the wall of an unfinished
> basement shall be permitted to be installed in a listed
> conduit or tubing or shall be protected in accordance with
> 300.4. Conduit or tubing shall be provided with a suitable
> insulating bushing or adapter at the point the cable enters
> the raceway. The NM cable sheath shall extend through the
> conduit or tubing and into the outlet or device box not less
> than 6 mm (1⁄4 in.). The cable shall be secured within
> 300 mm (12 in.) of the point where the cable enters the
> conduit or tubing. Metal conduit, tubing, and metal outlet
> boxes shall be connected to an equipment grounding conductor.


You quoted the code...I suppose, but what is the diff? By that I mean what the heck is the difference between running the cable under the joist or through the joist? In between the joist I could still hang my coat....right???


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## jmsmith

All kidding aside, I had it explained to me that the reasoning had to do with the bending, buckling, and twisting that goes on when a house starts settling. Even though it is stapled to every joist, staples occasionally work their way out of the joist edges, or start eating their way through the cabling itself. Years of this, and you wind up with a bunch of sagging cable, or having to locate where a short exists. A running board helps to alleviate some of these problems. I can see this in a crawl space, but in an unfinished basement?


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## BBQ

RIVETER said:


> You quoted the code...I suppose, but what is the diff? By that I mean what the heck is the difference between running the cable under the joist or through the joist? In between the joist I could still hang my coat....right???


I agree with you.


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## McClary’s Electrical

jmsmith said:


> All kidding aside, I had it explained to me that the reasoning had to do with the bending, buckling, and twisting that goes on when a house starts settling. Even though it is stapled to every joist, staples occasionally work their way out of the joist edges, or start eating their way through the cabling itself. Years of this, and you wind up with a bunch of sagging cable, or having to locate where a short exists. A running board helps to alleviate some of these problems. I can see this in a crawl space, but in an unfinished basement?


 
Who staples to every joist? Not me...


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## running dummy

I also thought it was a little silly to pop me on this specific article, at any rate I went back, made the repair and he passed me :thumbsup: Now lets see if I get paid! :lol:


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## jmsmith

mcclary's electrical said:


> Who staples to every joist? Not me...


My bad, not every joist... But was just describing how it was explained to me. I just didn't see how that would apply to a basement... Even though settling still happens, the wood (at least to me) is in a more controlled environment, and would not warp, bend, and buckle as bad as it would in a crawl space. All in all, if possible, I would rather bore through the wood.


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