# Electrical room second floor



## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

Well were getting done power is on to the second floor it only took 2 1/2 years .


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

What is the facility?


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

brian john said:


> What is the facility?


 Well Brian its the Doctor Phillips performing arts center weve been there 2 1/2 years so far we still have another phase coming up . Which I might just go fishing when its over . :laughing:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

piperunner said:


> Well Brian its the Doctor Phillips performing arts center weve been there 2 1/2 years so far we still have another phase coming up . Which I might just go fishing when its over . :laughing:


This place?

http://www.drphillipscenter.org


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## 123electric (Jun 3, 2012)

Jesus!
Coil springs under transformers look funny but I'm sure there effective for transformer buzz vibration.


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

brian john said:


> This place?
> 
> http://www.drphillipscenter.org


 
Well yes that's the place that's just phase one theres another phase coming up after we get done .


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

123electric said:


> Jesus!
> Coil springs under transformers look funny but I'm sure there effective for transformer buzz vibration.


Really dude, you want to stir up that hornets nest again? Trollers gonna troll. :laughing:


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

piperunner said:


> Well Brian its the Doctor Phillips performing arts center weve been there 2 1/2 years so far we still have another phase coming up . Which I might just go fishing when its over . :laughing:


Do you get bored working at the same place for 2 1/2 years? Longest stretch I've done on one job was 18 months, but we had some other service work we did at the same time. I was getting pretty sick of walking in the doors to that place at month 16 though.


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

123electric said:


> Jesus!
> Coil springs under transformers look funny but I'm sure there effective for transformer buzz vibration.


Well everything we do is funny on this project its a funny place 
every thing that vibrates must have a loop 180 degrees flex .

There cant be any physical connection on any dimmer with conduit .

All switchboards are on vibration pads . 

Every disconnect or panel are hung with vibration supports .

I could go on but they don't want any noise no sound transmission complete elimination the electrical rooms are padded when we get done with 2 inches of sound board .


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

piperunner said:


> Well everything we do is funny on this project its a funny place
> every thing that vibrates must have a loop 180 degrees flex .
> 
> There cant be any physical connection on any dimmer with conduit .
> ...


 Jesus. They should've just made it easy on you guys and let you build all the equipment normally inside a sound-proof electrical room. :laughing:


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## ablyss (Feb 8, 2014)

piperunner said:


> Well everything we do is funny on this project its a funny place
> every thing that vibrates must have a loop 180 degrees flex .
> 
> There cant be any physical connection on any dimmer with conduit .
> ...


When you work do you tiptoe across?:laughing:


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## greenman (Apr 20, 2012)

So what do they do when you need a contactor??
nice work by the way.


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

greenman said:


> So what do they do when you need a contactor??
> nice work by the way.


 Well its the same as motor starter or a freq drive anything that has a coil or a transformer or a relay that's anything that hums must be mounted on mason vibration pads or hangers.
Conduit is on rubber hangers and its flex with a S or a U shaped type connection to equipment . 

These folks are unbelievable but there sound engineers and they know it all .
Best part is if you move bump or shove any transformer in this building while its hot you might break the termination bus as they move easy on springs . 
I personally think there idiots but what do I know and its extra money our tax dollars could have saved.:thumbup:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Nice Job....:thumbup:


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## 123electric (Jun 3, 2012)

Very nice work. Attention to detail really shines.
Would have loved to have seen a few pics of the 4k amp main section before you put the covers on. I'm sure your top men made it work of art.


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

123electric said:


> Very nice work. Attention to detail really shines.
> Would have loved to have seen a few pics of the 4k amp main section before you put the covers on. I'm sure your top men made it work of art.


Well is this what you asked for.


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

Going_Commando said:


> Do you get bored working at the same place for 2 1/2 years? Longest stretch I've done on one job was 18 months, but we had some other service work we did at the same time. I was getting pretty sick of walking in the doors to that place at month 16 though.


 Well we don't have time to get bored most of my jobs are 2 years plus and a few have been longer in phases . 
We are always in run for the roses mode from start to finish non stop were 100 to 150 electricians on one project . You keep them busy or find another place to work here . :thumbsup:


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## 123electric (Jun 3, 2012)

Very impresive!


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## jchabot2012 (Apr 20, 2011)

Great work. It's nice to see someone taking the time to make their work look great. Seems too often foremen are in such a rush to get things done they don't want you to take the time to make it look good. But, once you do the job fast they complain it doesn't look good.I think you almost have to be OCD to be a good electrician. You have to figure in value added of course.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

And to think that was all done by a bunch of $22/hr Florida electricians. Who'd a thunk it?


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## jchabot2012 (Apr 20, 2011)

I would have paid 23/hour for that kind of work


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## madbubba (Sep 1, 2013)

I wouldn't shake my **** off in the morning for 23 bucks an hour.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

:thumbup:

Now that's how you wire up switchgear


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

MTW said:


> And to think that was all done by a bunch of $22/hr Florida electricians. Who'd a thunk it?


 
Well I guess I missed this MTW funny how you know what we make per hour now tell me how much stock we have in the company . And our bonus program % of jobs you seem to know more about my company then we do . 
Also include the benefit package so I know what my company is giving us this year .This way I can tell all the guys on Monday LOL. :thumbup:


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

piperunner said:


> Well I guess I missed this MTW funny how you know what we make per hour now tell me how much stock we have in the company . And our bonus program % of jobs you seem to know more about my company then we do .
> Also include the benefit package so I know what my company is giving us this year .This way I can tell all the guys on Monday LOL. :thumbup:


Uh huh. So what is the hourly pay for workers at Tri City electric? $35 an hour? :laughing::no:


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## Chrisibew440 (Sep 13, 2013)

Look at all the beutiful I-line stuff. Is that a company preference or was that just what you got? 

Me likey square d.


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

MTW said:


> Uh huh. So what is the hourly pay for workers at Tri City electric? $35 an hour? :laughing::no:


 Well MTW you tell us :laughing::laughing: 
You seem to be upset when I post photos of work show us your pay stub post it . let me ask you this how old are you and how long have you been in the trade you seem always on the edge or uptight. 
Do you ever have anything to post or benefit the forum but talk .:thumbup:


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

piperunner said:


> Well MTW you tell us :laughing::laughing:
> You seem to be upset when I post photos of work show us your pay stub post it . let me ask you this how old are you and how long have you been in the trade you seem always on the edge or uptight.
> Do you ever have anything to post or benefit the forum but talk .:thumbup:


The average electrician in Florida makes less than $25 an hour. Maybe they make a few dollars an hour more working for your company but I doubt it's much more than that.


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## Chrisibew440 (Sep 13, 2013)

So when you ladies are done bickering can you answer my question piperunner. I'm oh so anxious.


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

MTW said:


> The average electrician in Florida makes less than $25 an hour. Maybe they make a few dollars an hour more working for your company but I doubt it's much more than that.


 Well iam not sure why you care what we make in florida or why? Is that what you do all day . Average electricians yes were just plain old electricians let me ask you this how many jobs have you done and what or were are you located . Whats your companys name what is your pay ?:thumbup:


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

piperunner said:


> Well iam not sure why you care what we make in florida or why? Is that what you do all day . Average electricians yes were just plain old electricians let me ask you this how many jobs have you done and what or were are you located . Whats your companys name what is your pay ?:thumbup:


So in other words I'm right. :thumbup:


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## Chrisibew440 (Sep 13, 2013)

Oh wow. Want me to tell you how much I make. Jesus. 

I really like square d


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## Chrisibew440 (Sep 13, 2013)

I wasn't gonna tell ya anyway. It doesn't MATTTERRRRR!


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

Chrisibew440 said:


> Look at all the beutiful I-line stuff. Is that a company preference or was that just what you got?
> 
> Me likey square d.


Well we only install whats called for or accepted at submittal time what ever is approved by engineer we don't get the choice its there choice .

Some jobs its GE or what ever is cheapest .
Some jobs its SQ-D personally i like SQ-D because its smaller then most gear by" inches" the rooms today are packed and when I start layouts & pipe routes of electrical rooms months before a project its all about clear space . Submittal time and spec time they give you 4 choices then the supply companys play with the numbers.
We pick one and if the engineer has it in the specs on there list of accepted gear its used . You use whats in the specs that's all products on the job down to the anchors we use or screws. Its sent to engineer for approval he my reject it or pass it . Ya anyone who needs to know what one makes is a idiot like were going to give our personal info on a forum .


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

MTW said:


> And to think that was all done by a bunch of $22/hr Florida electricians. Who'd a thunk it?


In that part of Florida, it's more like $15 to $17 per hour. But you get a bonus. And a truck and a gas card.


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## Greg (Aug 1, 2007)

jrannis said:


> In that part of Florida, it's more like $15 to $17 per hour. But you get a bonus. And a truck and a gas card.


I'm jrannis but you are off base with your numbers. Before I went to the Gov't. I worked for that company as well as others and we make more than that. Your numbers are apprentice wages. Yes we do get bonuses, truck and gas card.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Greg said:


> I'm jrannis but you are off base with your numbers. Before I went to the Gov't. I worked for that company as well as others and we make more than that. Your numbers are apprentice wages. Yes we do get bonuses, truck and gas card.


I saw that the total wage and benefit package for 606 is like $26 so I would think that maybe 25% of that is benefits the rest on the check and usually here in the south, where we haven't learned to speak up for ourselves, on your own, it would be a bit less.


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## Chrisibew440 (Sep 13, 2013)

piperunner said:


> Well we only install whats called for or accepted at submittal time what ever is approved by engineer we don't get the choice its there choice .
> 
> Some jobs its GE or what ever is cheapest .
> Some jobs its SQ-D personally i like SQ-D because its smaller then most gear by" inches" the rooms today are packed and when I start layouts & pipe routes of electrical rooms months before a project its all about clear space . Submittal time and spec time they give you 4 choices then the supply companys play with the numbers.
> We pick one and if the engineer has it in the specs on there list of accepted gear its used . You use whats in the specs that's all products on the job down to the anchors we use or screws. Its sent to engineer for approval he my reject it or pass it . Ya anyone who needs to know what one makes is a idiot like were going to give our personal info on a forum .


Thanks for the reply. Yeah I hate the subject of pay rate, we know its a screwed up system, no need bringing it up, especially criticism of it.


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

Well if I had to pick it would be SQ-D on the job GE is getting bad plastic supports inside 500 Kva transformers when your trying to support 6 runs of 600 mcm and all that's holding it up is the transformer coil phase plate and a tiny plastic strip .
GE there gear is bigger but most of the terminations are a joke to make up .
GE there hard to fit inside the rooms today on any project .

GE service when parts are shipped there sent damaged or not on time poorly assembled at the plant missing bolts nuts or breakers not install were they were ordered in place per contract . 

GE any distribution panel 400 amp 600amp 800amp 1000amp 12000 amp 3phase the breakers are attached with bolts common when you replace or move a large breaker when you go to reinstall it the bolts strip out .

What we found is they install the bolts in the factory in south America with a air wrench they are putting to much torque on the bolt and they have defective distribution panels all over the world now .

Also the panels are cheap plastic bus supports are a joke !

There ok until the day you move or replace a breaker then you must order a new bus finger kit for it plus new bolts because they strip out the threaded part of the extension phase bus when you unscrew it .

We set hundreds of switchboards each year trust me GE is junk .


And why because its not manufactured in AMERICA that's why you go cheap you get cheap !


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

...nice job piperunner, looks professional, well done !


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

jrannis said:


> In that part of Florida, it's more like $15 to $17 per hour. But you get a bonus. And a truck and a gas card.


Piperunner works for a big non-union shop so I wouldn't expect wages to be that low. However, there is no chance they are as high as they are here in the northeast. An average hourly worker at his company doesn't make more than $25/hr.


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

MTW said:


> Piperunner works for a big non-union shop so I wouldn't expect wages to be that low. However, there is no chance they are as high as they are here in the northeast. An average hourly worker at his company doesn't make more than $25/hr.


 Well yes MTW you are correct the average yes . But then again there a few who started with the company many years ago and still work in the field . Still out there everyday running the projects .You know the ones who made the company to get mega were its at today .
Just think 401K plus years plus stock in the company plus years plus bonus on each project . You make what your earn its my thoughts that your barking up the wrong tree. I if you look at it this way you really don't know what a person makes each has his or hers own income . And you don't know anything about me or who works with me at my company .
All our jobs are multi million projects 12 mill to 40 mill now were not talking here guys ill give ya 50 bucks nice job your really a idiot if you do. Some day when you grow up and think about what your making claims to about other electricians or what there income is remember theres always someone better than you or smarter . By the way weres your side kick BBQ ?:thumbup:


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

piperunner said:


> Well yes MTW you are correct the average yes . But then again there a few who started with the company many years ago and still work in the field . Still out there everyday running the projects .You know the ones who made the company to get mega were its at today .
> Just think 401K plus years plus stock in the company plus years plus bonus on each project . You make what your earn its my thoughts that your barking up the wrong tree. I if you look at it this way you really don't know what a person makes each has his or hers own income . And you don't know anything about me or who works with me at my company .
> All our jobs are multi million projects 12 mill to 40 mill now were not talking here guys ill give ya 50 bucks nice job your really a idiot if you do. Some day when you grow up and think about what your making claims to about other electricians or what there income is remember theres always someone better than you or smarter . By the way weres your side kick BBQ ?:thumbup:


Right, so every guy who works on your crew is making $35 or more an hour, right? :laughing::laughing::no::no:

Even counting bonuses, stock, etc, you're still below the union average scale here in the Northeast.


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

MTW said:


> Right, so every guy who works on your crew is making $35 or more an hour, right? :laughing::laughing::no::no:
> 
> Even counting bonuses, stock, etc, you're still below the union average scale here in the Northeast.


Well I really don't care what anyone makes I only care about number one me . But yes your correct generally they make less but we don't pay your taxes we don't pay what you pay to live up north . Your a funny guy MTW but you don't have a clue you need help .

Iam from Edison NJ IBEW union during high school worked in Manhatten 
local 3 # lots of big jobs before you were born .Were are you from I need to know so I can go around that state when I visit my brother in NY.

Came to florida found a company just starting out been with them ever since . I make more money with them and will retire with more cash then if I stayed in local 3 my whole life . Let me say I make more money then your top union boys do up north every year and iam never out of work . And on some jobs I get a check that's more then what they make in fours years union wages up north in addition to hourly rate .

Its all about who you work for and what you give them to get what you want .
Nothing is free no one is going to hand it to you. 

You must work for it .
Seems everyone needs a union to speak for them or protect them .
That's not today and in real life if you have a trade or skill they will pay for it 
You don't need to be up north or out west that's a joke to make more money . Our taxes and cost of living down south is less if we make more money or less your not getting the picture MTW . 

Out say California they make more but they pay mega taxes and everything cost more so whos making more your paying more .

Yes were slow were poor folks down here but we hunt and fish and enjoy warm weather year round and don't pay extra to live in a trash dump.:laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

piperunner said:


> Well I really don't care what anyone makes I only care about number one me . But yes your correct generally they make less but we don't pay your taxes we don't pay what you pay to live up north . Your a funny guy MTW but you don't have a clue you need help .
> 
> Iam from Edison NJ IBEW union during high school worked in Manhatten
> local 3 # lots of big jobs before you were born .Were are you from I need to know so I can go around that state when I visit my brother in NY.
> ...


:sleep1:


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

MTW said:


> :sleep1:


 

What no comment weres your boys at :thumbsup:


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

piperunner said:


> Let me say I make more money then your top union boys do up north every year and iam never out of work . And on some jobs I get a check that's more then what they make in fours years union wages up north in addition to hourly rate .


Let's run some quick numbers on that, shall we? Average union pay is about $33-40 an hour, give or take. Let's split the difference. $36.50 an hour at 2000 hours a year is $73,000, pre tax. After taxes it's about $57,000, give or take.

So your company gives you a bonus check of (57,000 X 4) $228,000 on some jobs? Yeah, that's believable. :laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

MTW said:


> Right, so every guy who works on your crew is making $35 or more an hour, right? :laughing::laughing::no::no:
> 
> Even counting bonuses, stock, etc, you're still below the union average scale here in the Northeast.


 do you read what you post, or just constantly troll?


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## MIKEFLASH (Apr 14, 2012)

Can't any one actually post pics of good quality work without being bashed, and why does it matter how much he makes ? 
Some people really be hating.


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## Next72969 (Dec 9, 2012)

Grammar (noun)- : the set of rules that explain how words are used in a language


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## union347sparky (Feb 29, 2012)

MIKEFLASH said:


> Can't any one actually post pics of good quality work without being bashed, and why does it matter how much he makes ? Some people really be hating.



Nope. Everyone on here is the BEST electrician EVER. They can always do it better than anyone on here.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Next72969 said:


> Grammar (noun)- : the set of rules that explain how words are used in a language


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

360max said:


> I constantly troll.


That's pretty obvious. :laughing:


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## MIKEFLASH (Apr 14, 2012)

I really starting to hate this stupid site, filled with a bunch of idiots trying to stir up a bunch of crap. Most resi electricians jealous of jobs that they can't even fathom where to start.


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)




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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

MTW said:


> Let's run some quick numbers on that, shall we? Average union pay is about $33-40 an hour, give or take. Let's split the difference. $36.50 an hour at 2000 hours a year is $73,000, pre tax. After taxes it's about $57,000, give or take.
> 
> So your company gives you a bonus check of (57,000 X 4) $228,000 on some jobs? Yeah, that's believable. :laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


 Well I make more than 73k a year my friend and yes on some jobs we can get a percent of the total saved hours and material which can be a few dollars 
when you think 20 million to 40 million electrical projects . Once in a while you can make more in a bonus then you make hourly all year . So whats your point what are you trying to say that up north your hourly pay is more yes I agree with that stay up there MTW good for you .


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

MIKEFLASH said:


> I really starting to hate this stupid site, filled with a bunch of idiots trying to stir up a bunch of crap. Most resi electricians jealous of jobs that they can't even fathom where to start.


Bye bye. :thumbup:


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

MIKEFLASH said:


> I really starting to hate this stupid site, filled with a bunch of idiots trying to stir up a bunch of crap. Most resi electricians jealous of jobs that they can't even fathom where to start.


. They got rid of a bunch of the usual D bags that were notorious for stirring the pot . Obviously , a few are still left , lol ! Jealousy makes guys say the dumbest things sometimes .


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

360max said:


> ...nice job piperunner, looks professional, well done !





union347sparky said:


> Nope. * Everyone on here* is the BEST electrician EVER. They can always do it better than anyone on here.


...when I see quality work, whether its residential or industrial, I always make it a point to post a positive comment to the installer.


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

MTW said:


> Right, so every guy who works on your crew is making $35 or more an hour, right? :laughing::laughing::no::no: Even counting bonuses, stock, etc, you're still below the union average scale here in the Northeast.


. Ok , putting pay rates aside , what's the biggest project you've ever run from the ground up ? Would you seriously even know where to start on a project as big as the one piperunner is doing ?


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

drumnut08 said:


> . They got rid of a bunch of the usual D bags that were notorious for stirring the pot . Obviously , a few are still left , lol ! Jealousy makes guys say the dumbest things sometimes .


...that's why the site is kinda stale. You can always get any question answered here, mixed in with a little trolling sometimes.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

piperunner said:


> Well I make more than 73k a year my friend


No doubt, as you should for that kind of work. I was pointing out that the average Florida electrician does not make anything close to that, but as usual you took it personally. :laughing:



> and yes on some jobs we can get a percent of the total saved hours and material which can be a few dollars
> when you think 20 million to 40 million electrical projects . Once in a while you can make more in a bonus then you make hourly all year . So whats your point what are you trying to say that up north your hourly pay is more yes I agree with that stay up there MTW good for you .



I'm simply saying your claim of making more in one bonus than an average union electrician does up north in 4 years is completely bogus. If that were the case, you wouldn't be working right now, would you?


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

360max said:


> ...that's why the site is kinda stale. You can always get any question answered here, mixed in with a little trolling sometimes.


. Sometimes , lol ? You can get a question answered , but you better be prepared to hear what a ****** you are for not knowing the answer , lol !


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

drumnut08 said:


> . Ok , putting pay rates aside , what's the biggest project you've ever run from the ground up ?


I wired a bird house once, but it was all wrong. 



> Would you seriously even know where to start on a project as big as the one piperunner is doing ?


No, I couldn't follow a set of blueprints and having engineers holding my hand all day long.


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

MTW said:


> I wired a bird house once, but it was all wrong. No, I couldn't follow a set of blueprints and having engineers holding my hand all day long.


. Ok , that's what I thought , lol ! The engineers have nothing to do with the layout of the job . They spec what equipment to use , but how a conduit makes it from " a " to " b " is up to the installer . Birdhouse's have been a pain to wire since afci's came into the picture , I feel your pain !


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

drumnut08 said:


> . Ok , that's what I thought , lol ! The engineers have nothing to do with the layout of the job . They spec what equipment to use , but how a conduit makes it from " a " to " b " is up to the installer Birdhouse's have been a pain to wire since afci's came into the picture , I feel your pain !


:thumbsup::laughing:


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

drumnut08 said:


> . Ok , putting pay rates aside , what's the biggest project you've ever run from the ground up ? Would you seriously even know where to start on a project as big as the one piperunner is doing ?


My opinion is that running a small busy residential service company causes far more anxiety than running a large job. (over 2 million) in most cases. There's still 100's of small decisions and a few large ones to make on a daily basis in both situations. And there are also 100's of variables.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Bkessler said:


> My opinion is that running a small busy residential service company causes far more anxiety than running a large job. (over 2 million) in most cases. There's still 100's of small decisions and a few large ones to make on a daily basis in both situations. And there are also 100's of variables.


Hmmm...I thought resi work wasn't real electrical work though?


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## glen1971 (Oct 10, 2012)

The coordination and planning involved on the jobs that pieprunner has posted pics for are definately well beyond that of most electricians.. Lots of them appear to be showcase jobs that have taken months of planning and coordinating between the trades as well as every different drawing. Take that element away from the project and if you posted the pics from "those" projects, everyone could rip them to shreds and be ashamed to admit to being in the same trade as what would produce that final product. 

Anyone that is involved in the management and coordination of that size of projects is definately in a league of their own, and I applaud their craftsmanship! 

Just my 2 cents...


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

MTW said:


> No doubt, as you should for that kind of work. I was pointing out that the average Florida electrician does not make anything close to that, but as usual you took it personally. :laughing:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well its not bogus now its not every job but if we saved 2 million on a project the boys get a part of that savings foremen get the most of that . 
The company made more above and beyond that. That's just what the boys in the field saved on labor or material next to what was estimated .But you earn it nothing is given long hours hard work no one hands it to us. I saw the comment about engineers and started laughing you really don't have a clue do you . what do you do at work ? 


we design pipe runs shorter we save wire we save pipe we design the rooms so feeders are closer . yes if your making money for a profit share you get what you get and ill stop working when I feel the need to not ready yet . Ive spent lots of that money on my own business ventures . Which iam sure youll tell me iam bogus you have a lot of ideas about me who I work for how much I make and also what I know about electrical but you really don't know who or what I do or know . LOL your a very funny guy MTW some day when you grow up and just need to post something use full let me know . :thumbup:


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

piperunner said:


> Well its not bogus now its not every job but if we saved 2 million on a project the boys get a part of that savings foremen get the most of that .
> The company made more above and beyond that. That's just what the boys in the field saved on labor or material next to what was estimated .But you earn it nothing is given long hours hard work no one hands it to us.
> 
> we design pipe runs shorter we save wire we save pipe we design the rooms so feeders are closer . yes if your making money for a profit share you get what you get and ill stop working when I feel the need to not ready yet . Ive spent lots of that money on my own business ventures . Which iam sure youll tell me iam bogus you have a lot of ideas about me who I work for how much I make and also what I know about electrical but you really don't know who or what I do or know . LOL your a very funny guy MTW some day when you grow up and just need to post something use full let me know . :thumbup:


Based on your posts here you should stick with what you're good at and stay away from electrical theory. :thumbsup:


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

MTW said:


> Based on your posts here you should stick with what you're good at and stay away from electrical theory. :thumbsup:


Well there you go again what question would you like to ask about anything electrical go for it from electronics to our electrical work . And don't use your code book lets just talk about theory . And don't bring up your grounding ideas per what you read in the code book . Lets see what you got .

Now don't bring your code book into this lets just talk about electrical or electronics theory iam waiting hot shot .


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

piperunner said:


> Well there you go again what question would you like to ask about anything electrical go for it from electronics to our electrical work . And don't use your code book lets just talk about theory . And don't bring up your grounding ideas per what you read in the code book . Lets see what you got .


They aren't "my" grounding ideas from the code book, they are based on sound electrical theory and principles. For some reason you think every building needs to be grounded with a lightning protection system which makes sense in Florida but it's not necessary in low lightning areas.


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

Well there you go again lets talk theory anything you like. No I don't agree with your grounding not in this life time .

You made the statement many times on posts that I don't know nothing but how to run pipe . 

That I should stick with just pipe and that's it .

So heres your chance MTW to prove it with everyone on the forum ask me your tuffest question about anything to do with electrical or electronic theory? No formulas no calculations just theory .

Now remember iam 61 years old and we didn't have computers when I started in the trade but go ahead lets see if the oldman can answer you tuffest theory question . 

This is your big chance to back up your statement when you think you know 
what a persons background is like a construction electrician .

Iam here to tell you all construction electricians get a bad rap and iam here to show your wrong . You put us all in a same boat well go ahead and ask.
Theres no engineer to help me now or a set of drawings to instruct me iam alone will I be able to answer .

 I think this will be a fun post interesting construction pipe monkeys 
talking theory come on hot shot give it your best . 

Are you googling it now or can you open up a book .

I will use spell check on my responses just so you cant comment on my post about spelling properly


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

piperunner said:


> Well I make more than 73k a year my friend and yes on some jobs we can get a percent of the total saved hours and material which can be a few dollars
> when you think 20 million to 40 million electrical projects . Once in a while you can make more in a bonus then you make hourly all year . So whats your point what are you trying to say that up north your hourly pay is more yes I agree with that stay up there MTW good for you .


I'm sure the top dogs are getting paid nice but the average guy, not so much.

BTW, 
73k was nice money in that part of Florida and here too 20 years ago but, I do see your point.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

glen1971 said:


> The coordination and planning involved on the jobs that pieprunner has posted pics for are definately well beyond that of most electricians.. Lots of them appear to be showcase jobs that have taken months of planning and coordinating between the trades as well as every different drawing. Take that element away from the project and if you posted the pics from "those" projects, everyone could rip them to shreds and be ashamed to admit to being in the same trade as what would produce that final product.
> 
> Anyone that is involved in the management and coordination of that size of projects is definately in a league of their own, and I applaud their craftsmanship!
> 
> Just my 2 cents...


I remember coming up in the trade and jobs like these were very routine, all planned and supervised and no one really thought they were a superman for doing their job. We certainly didn't expect a bonus for giving 8for 8, paid according to our agreement, maybe a little OT here and there, lay off and on to the next one.
Then shops opened up, hired one smart guy and a bunch of monkey see, monkey do types and the race to the bottom began.
One or two guys get paid a decent wage, bonus them out of the money saved from paying the other guys, and a legend in his own mind is created. 

Just my 2 cents.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

piperunner said:


> Well there you go again lets talk theory anything you like.
> 
> Now remember iam 61 years old and we didn't have computers when I started in the trade but go ahead lets see if the oldman can answer you tuffest theory question .
> 
> ...


Can you explain to me how three phase can be made from just to incoming phases?
I see this all of the time and was also wondering what that sine wave would look like.
And can you please answer in Haiku format?


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Hey Piperunner, do you or any of your guys have to supply their own benders?


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

jrannis said:


> Can you explain to me how three phase can be made from just to incoming phases? I see this all of the time and was also wondering what that sine wave would look like. And can you please answer in Haiku format?


Two pots on the pole
Waves of one hundred twenty
The open delta


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## walkerj (May 13, 2007)

ponyboy said:


> Two pots on the pole Waves of one hundred twenty The open delta


:laughing:


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

ponyboy said:


> Two pots on the pole
> Waves of one hundred twenty
> The open delta


 :lol:


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## glen1971 (Oct 10, 2012)

jrannis said:


> I remember coming up in the trade and jobs like these were very routine, all planned and supervised and no one really thought they were a superman for doing their job. We certainly didn't expect a bonus for giving 8for 8, paid according to our agreement, maybe a little OT here and there, lay off and on to the next one.
> Then shops opened up, hired one smart guy and a bunch of monkey see, monkey do types and the race to the bottom began.
> One or two guys get paid a decent wage, bonus them out of the money saved from paying the other guys, and a legend in his own mind is created.
> 
> Just my 2 cents.


Redlined a set of drawings for a site built in the 70s and the drafting detail was about 1,000 times what it is today. They had all the conduit numbers, sizes, conductor counts from north to south, or east to west... Even the details on how the elevation changes was to be done with LBs and 90s on a 2 tier rack.. Pretty impressive, compared to some of the junk that comes out today...


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

piperunner said:


> No I don't agree with your grounding not in this life time .


That's why you should stick with running pipe then. You're really good at that. :thumbsup: Grounding...not so much.


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

glen1971 said:


> Redlined a set of drawings for a site built in the 70s and the drafting detail was about 1,000 times what it is today. They had all the conduit numbers, sizes, conductor counts from north to south, or east to west... Even the details on how the elevation changes was to be done with LBs and 90s on a 2 tier rack.. Pretty impressive, compared to some of the junk that comes out today...



Well was it a power plant a refit or a power plant you get elevations pipe & trays racks to and from locations. Theres no design for us to do its done for us . We fill out conduit cards with a numbering system on the card theres cable or cables listed on that conduit card . All cable pulls are non spliced so you cut it before you pull it lots of fun cut and roll it up then pull it .
After we run conduit the engineer checks it off after we pull wire engineer checks it off . Numbers stamped on conduit numbers stamped on pull boxes . Cables labeled with number 
From a pull box the same cable maybe change conduits in size and direction 
so now that cable is on a different card and so on .

The drawings are different from a commercial job you have termination schematics which show each cable and what wire in that cable terminates on what terminal in I/0 cabinets which can be 2 conductors to 50 conductors theres no wire in a plant other then multi conductor cable . 

When you do a plant its the best drawings that you will ever get in this trade 
not like regular commercial jobs on the street .
What do you do today Glen we all use ipads out in the field mostly paperless today everything is a copy off the printer if you need it .


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

piperunner said:


> Well there you go again lets talk theory anything you like. No I don't agree with your grounding not in this life time .
> 
> You made the statement many times on posts that I don't know nothing but how to run pipe .
> 
> ...



What purpose does an ultra low impedance grounding system serve for a premises wiring system operating under 600 volts?


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

MTW said:


> What purpose does an ultra low impedance grounding system serve for a premises wiring system operating under 600 volts?


 
Well it keeps you resi boys busy that's about it. :thumbup:


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

piperunner said:


> Well it keeps you resi boys busy that's about it. :thumbup:


In other words, you don't know. :thumbup:


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

MTW said:


> In other words, you don't know. :thumbup:


 Well I think I figured out who you really are on the forum do you live with your mother and stay in the basement all day .:laughing:


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

piperunner said:


> Well I think I figured out who you really are on the forum do you live with your mother and stay in the basement all day .:laughing:


You said that you could handle any theory question. So I'll be waiting for your answer.


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## glen1971 (Oct 10, 2012)

piperunner said:


> What do you do today Glen we all use ipads out in the field mostly paperless today everything is a copy off the printer if you need it .


I'm in the oilfield in Southern Alberta.. Did my tour on the construction side of things all over Western Canada and no doing the maintenance thing... Never done a power plant, but have done miles of teck cable and a bit of conduit. By bit, the largest rack I've built is about 18 conduits wide of GRS.. Definately not the largest, but on this side of the 49th cable is replacing conduit, so I missed out on that "era" of the trade up here..Still lots of EMT in commercial, but I've been out of that for about 20 years, so I'm guessing there are 2nd or 3rd years that could run circles around me..

I'm still "semi old school" with my laptop.. Most places that don't have drawings I build them in excel and send them off for drafting. Lots of guys have asked why excel and it's mainly because everyone out there has it and can at least print the docs.. Plus it is handy following out wire terminations and there is no guess work with a "G" or a "6"...


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

glen1971 said:


> I'm in the oilfield in Southern Alberta.. Did my tour on the construction side of things all over Western Canada and no doing the maintenance thing... Never done a power plant, but have done miles of teck cable and a bit of conduit. By bit, the largest rack I've built is about 18 conduits wide of GRS.. Definately not the largest, but on this side of the 49th cable is replacing conduit, so I missed out on that "era" of the trade up here..Still lots of EMT in commercial, but I've been out of that for about 20 years, so I'm guessing there are 2nd or 3rd years that could run circles around me..
> 
> I'm still "semi old school" with my laptop.. Most places that don't have drawings I build them in excel and send them off for drafting. Lots of guys have asked why excel and it's mainly because everyone out there has it and can at least print the docs.. Plus it is handy following out wire terminations and there is no guess work with a "G" or a "6"...


Well we use Auto Cad to design our work rooms piping and lighting you can re design it in 3d I don't its done by one of the auto cad guys who works for us. I like Excel for my feeder spread sheets and just about anything I do is Excel . Auto cad is what most engineers use and Revit I don't know if I spell that correct . If I need a 36 "x 36 " drawing I send it to the printer and its spit out for the field . But the ipad has taken construction over its the best thing all drawings are easy to see and I use goodreader to help out . 

I remember when we had blue prints things have change plus when you have tons of drawings the Apple ipad saves time .
I even have a program that lets me order wire directly from south wire its a program that south wire can install in your ipad so I can order material from them while standing out in the field . Iam no bill gates I learn as I go and everything is paper less .


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Phil, I'm still waiting for your reply.


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## T&K (Jun 18, 2012)

MTW said:


> Phil, I'm still waiting for your reply.


And I'm still waiting for yours...I bumped the thread for ya.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

T&K said:


> And I'm still waiting for yours...I bumped the thread for ya.


:001_huh:


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## sarness (Sep 14, 2010)

I miss the smell of old fashioned blueprints.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

ponyboy said:


> Two pots on the pole
> Waves of one hundred twenty
> The open delta


If you are pipe runner, and you have two user names, you posted on the wrong one.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Piperunner, I'm still waiting for your reply.


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## Mitchell1211 (Feb 6, 2014)

Out of curiosity... MTW, would you describe your contributions to this forum as positive?


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## 8V71 (Dec 23, 2011)

sarness said:


> I miss the smell of old fashioned blueprints.


And fresh blue on white prints from the ditto machine. yumm yummmm


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Mitchell1211 said:


> Out of curiosity... MTW, would you describe your contributions to this forum as positive?


And which reincarnated former ET member might you be?


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## Mitchell1211 (Feb 6, 2014)

MTW said:


> And which reincarnated former ET member might you be?


Newish member. I don't post much. 

Just try to keep things positive... 

Who is going to read this thread and say "ya know what? This job came out looking pretty nice, I'm gonna post pictures of this on ET so the thread can get hijacked by two guys that have absolutely no social etiquette."

People should want to post here. I came here because other sites were a bunch of people asking how to get into unions, or which union is better. I came here because I don't work with many guys in the field. This site is a place to talk to people about things that your friends don't understand. So please, just think about how these petty arguments are affecting this place that some of us have found to be entertaining and useful.


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## Chrisibew440 (Sep 13, 2013)

drumnut08 said:


> . Ok , putting pay rates aside , what's the biggest project you've ever run from the ground up ? Would you seriously even know where to start on a project as big as the one piperunner is doing ?


I did a 4 million dollar roof mount solar system. 4,620 panels. .987563 kw. It took 3 weeks shy of 1 year. 9 men at the most for about 8 months. I was proud of it.


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## 120/208 (Nov 18, 2012)

piperunner said:


> Well were getting done power is on to the second floor it only took 2 1/2 years .


Awesome work. I appreciate all the neat pictures you post. You should be very proud of your work.


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

piperunner said:


> Well were getting done power is on to the second floor it only took 2 1/2 years .


Very nice work piperunner. Thanks for sharing.


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

Well thanks we like to share I would like to see work from other electricians out there manly from the ones who just talk about what they do like MTW . But ill post more soon we have a special room that has so many conduits you cant see the ceiling. I noticed a lot less aggressive 
folks on the forum they must be running out of stories to tell or they don't have friends to back them up when I post photos of electrical work . LOL :laughing:


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Well let's see Piperunner, you've declared than any work other than pipe work isn't real electrical work, so why would anyone feel compelled to post pictures of any non real electrical work? After all, banging together 20' sticks of PVC and bending 90's in 4" EMT is the real thing.


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

MTW said:


> Well let's see Piperunner, you've declared than any work other than pipe work isn't real electrical work, so why would anyone feel compelled to post pictures of any non real electrical work? After all, banging together 20' sticks of PVC and bending 90's in 4" EMT is the real thing.


Well iam waiting for your work to be posted .

As to your grounding question just go with what the NEC tells you that's all you need to know don't educated yourself . I said this before and no one ever came back to discuss it like a real person would but lighting is high frequency its not at 60 cycles its not at 600 volts . Its in the kilo & mega cycles and its super high voltage the better connection you have is the lowest resistance . Because it travels on the outside of a conductor at 25 ohms per code your NEC is a big mistake your really at a much higher resistance then 25 ohms . Its not even worth installing the ground rod but if you put multiple rods in and bond them the way our engineers design it you have a better system .

Next I said this before but ill repeat it the testing companys who test rods with a three point fall of potential is a waste of time . 

Why because its not at the frequency of a strike and its not at that voltage so there not getting the real resistance of the system . 

Go to Gainesville Florida 
theres a place there that will educate you on ground rods remember florida is the lighting capital state you don't have a clue about grounding . Average dealths in florida is 10 people per year think about it MTW .

So we bond we use more of a system then any other part of the USA plus we have engineers design it not just install a 25 ohm rod and walk away that's a joke . :no: Don't ask me dumb questions about why I know why if you want to talk about electric do it but be intelligent about it your one way and cant see out of that box and don't trust what you get from talk on ET . 
They install electrical work but they need to look past the code book theres another world out there .
Once they thought the earth was flat and AC power would kill everyone so look past what you think you know and don't ever tell someone that there wrong just because your posting on a forum and need to keep face .

Now lets see what you got hot shot lets talk grounding .


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Piperunner, I agree that places like Florida with high amounts of lightning should incorporate lightning protection systems into the building wiring system. But that's not what this discussion is about. It's been stated many times that an ultra low impedance grounding system does not increase the overall safety of a building wiring system and that remains true no matter what you believe. 

The connection to earth is just that - a connection to dirt. It's not a magic electron sink and it's certainly not a reliable path back to the source. The connection to earth in building wiring is primarily for accidental contact with high voltage and lightning protection to a lesser degree. The connection earth, even a marginal connection, will certainly mitigate the hazard of high voltage contact. As for lightning protection, the NEC does not address that. Therefore nothing short of a complete UL listed LPS is going to help with that. But the earth connection has nothing whatsoever to do with fault clearing or hazard mitigation on systems operating at less than 600 volts.


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

MTW said:


> Piperunner, I agree that places like Florida with high amounts of lightning should incorporate lightning protection systems into the building wiring system. But that's not what this discussion is about. It's been stated many times that an ultra low impedance grounding system does not increase the overall safety of a building wiring system and that remains true no matter what you believe.
> 
> The connection to earth is just that - a connection to dirt. It's not a magic electron sink and it's certainly not a reliable path back to the source. The connection to earth in building wiring is primarily for accidental contact with high voltage and lightning protection to a lesser degree. The connection earth, even a marginal connection, will certainly mitigate the hazard of high voltage contact. As for lightning protection, the NEC does not address that. Therefore nothing short of a complete UL listed LPS is going to help with that. But the earth connection has nothing whatsoever to do with fault clearing or hazard mitigation on systems operating at less than 600 volts.



Well finally a response to a post now you are saying let me understand this less than 600 volts a ground rod is not needed . clearing a fault or any function of a system metallic ground earth connection mishap would not function to limit or protect . 

Why would a clamp meter on a ground rod measure 10 amps on a 480 volt system ?

Why do we test rods with a fall of potential tester .


Theres the old current voltage measuring between the rods which passes thought earth soil at what voltage do you think that tester is operating at and frequency . The soil is what a totally non conductive material I disagree with that .

I think old tesla would also disagree .

Ok at 60 cycles at 480 volts could you light up a light bulb from a rod to a hot phase placed in the earth ?

So any place on earth the soil no matter were it is do you think current will not pass from point A to point B at less than 600 volts is that what your point is ? 

So a high current at 600 volts will not pass into soil and clear itself never happen will not work is that correct MTW ?

We have class C soil in Florida .


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## Ultrafault (Dec 16, 2012)

piperunner said:


> Well finally a response to a post now you are saying let me understand this less than 600 volts a ground rod is not needed . clearing a fault or any function of a system metallic ground earth connection mishap would not function to limit or protect .
> 
> Why would a clamp meter on a ground rod measure 10 amps on a 480 volt system ?
> 
> ...


If your return path is 25 ohms, which is low, and your voltage is 600 you would have a 24 amps. 25 ohms is the best case scenario on a 25 ohm rod, further away you will have less. 

You will have current on a rod becuase it is unavoidable as current will take all available paths to its source. So with the main ground rod in place and the transformer ground in place you have effectively created a parallel neutral through the ground. This is not a situation we would want at all.

MTW is right. But take solace in the fact that he has never posted conduits or switchgear as pretty as yours.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Ultrafault stole my thunder, but I'll reply anyway. 



piperunner said:


> Well finally a response to a post now you are saying let me understand this less than 600 volts a ground rod is not needed


I never said that. The NEC requires us to connect premises wiring systems to a grounding electrode system. I'm saying it doesn't serve a reliable fault clearing function unless it's medium or high voltage. 



> . clearing a fault or any function of a system metallic ground earth connection mishap would not function to limit or protect .


I'm not sure I understand.



> Why would a clamp meter on a ground rod measure 10 amps on a 480 volt system ?


Some current will flow on the earth. The earth is a path back to the source assuming it's connected in parallel to the source. 



> Why do we test rods with a fall of potential tester .


To make engineers happy? :laughing: You could install a system with .00001 ohms of impedance to earth, but it's still not nearly as important as the main bonding jumper which I will explain more later. 




> Theres the old current voltage measuring between the rods which passes thought earth soil at what voltage do you think that tester is operating at and frequency.


I have no idea as I've never done an FOP test. But that isn't really relevant to the discussion at hand. The voltage level must be high enough to push enough current through the earth to operate an OCPD. You can take a wire directly off a 20 amp breaker and connect it to a ground rod, and it's not going to trip that breaker. 



> The soil is what a totally non conductive material I disagree with that .


It's conductive but dirt is not an NEC recognized conductor. The NEC requires us to connect our electrical systems to it, but it's not for fault clearing purposes at premises wiring system voltage. Would you omit the equipment ground at a parking lot lighting pole and rely on a ground rod and the earth instead? I certainly hope not. :no:



> I think old tesla would also disagree.


I couldn't tell you, but I'm sure Tesla understood that the earth is not a reliable path back to the source, no matter how much he might have experimented with it.



> Ok at 60 cycles at 480 volts could you light up a light bulb from a rod to a hot phase placed in the earth ?


I suppose you could make it light up, but we're not talking about completing a circuit. We're talking about a reliable, NEC recognized conductive path back to the source. That function is served by the main bonding jumper from the non current carrying, conductive paths of a premises wiring system to the source of supply. 



> So any place on earth the soil no matter were it is do you think current will not pass from point A to point B at less than 600 volts is that what your point is ?


Current will flow on the earth. The question is, can we use that path for fault clearing? I say no and the NEC certainly says no. 



> So a high current at 600 volts will not pass into soil and clear itself never happen will not work is that correct MTW ?


It may, it may not. Too many variables involved to say, but I'm certainly not going to trust my life on a system that uses the earth as a primary bonding conductor. 



> We have class C soil in Florida .


What is Class C soil?


----------



## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

Well we don't install one rod and we never follow the NEC 25 ohm rule .

Every job when we install one rod it must be less than 10 ohms that's one rod .

When all 3# rods are connected in a delta it must be less then 1 ohm .

That's just the rods for the normal power .

On a project we have two grounding systems normal & emergency .
So on most projects we FP test just on one rod when its less then 10 ohms we stop adding rods this can take us down to 40 feet or more .

When we are totally done meaning connecting all three rods with a 4/0 copper cad weld we test again at this time is not connected to any thing but the three rods in delta . 

We get less than one ohm like normally .0019 that's low normally 1/4 of a ohm is generally the results .

Now I can make a 60 watt blub burn via earth yes soil has resistance 
but its also were your at whos soil and how much soil resistance .

I do my own F/P testing on rods when you test current flows via earth to voltage test rod and current test rod to ground rod under test . That's via the soil now today they use a high frequency to eliminate interference .

Now we have connected 18 rods not including the rebar matt building steel uffer ground cold water ground gas ground and every transformer on site inside the building . Current can flow from ground any place in building back to the source . Where not in a wooden structure were not using romex .

The NEC is not even close to what we do so and I would say at 600 volts on our projects if you had a fault the breaker would trip via earth .

Fact is were so low when all systems are tied together its .0001 ohms .


----------



## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

.


Ultrafault said:


> If your return path is 25 ohms, which is low, and your voltage is 600 you would have a 24 amps. 25 ohms is the best case scenario on a 25 ohm rod, further away you will have less.
> 
> You will have current on a rod becuase it is unavoidable as current will take all available paths to its source. So with the main ground rod in place and the transformer ground in place you have effectively created a parallel neutral through the ground. This is not a situation we would want at all.
> 
> MTW is right. But take solace in the fact that he has never posted conduits or switchgear as pretty as yours.



Well a ELCB voltage sense in fact now they make a brk called a RCD current sense both operated by ground rod leakage. Basic operation was if in the case of voltage from any source the ELCB E for voltage L leakage via ground earth soil it t tripped. 


They can sense voltage from earth they can work on any level of voltage does not have to be 4160 v it could be 480 v or 208 volts . They could detect a current or voltage from soil to rod at or above 50 volts but it all was via soil earth to rod metal piping people connected to a phase via ground earth .

That's there function so you see a ground rod is important and they are used maybe not in your scope .
GFI do you use these we use them on everything above 1000amps .


Ground rods are important and serve a purpose other than just a lighting strike in commercial work just go past the code book a little theres lots of things your missing .

Lets caluculate my rods at .0001 ohmies its almost like a conductor. fact it has less resistance then some of my ground wire in raceways so which path would it take . since I cant add or subtract and only run pipe iam a little out of touch with complex math or formulas .


Thanks for the comment but theres many electrical contractors who do the same work we do its just I guess iam the only one who post work .

I wish some day to see some other folks post but I never have personally 
It gets old seeing just my work I really like to see other contractors work
to see how they do it .:thumbsup:


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

piperunner said:


> Well we don't install one rod and we never follow the NEC 25 ohm rule .
> 
> Every job when we install one rod it must be less than 10 ohms that's one rod .
> 
> ...


That's a complete waste of time, money and resources to require a grounding impedance that low for building wiring. That's just some boilerplate engineering spec required by cubicle dwelling building wiring engineers who have no grasp on electrical theory. 



> On a project we have two grounding systems normal & emergency .
> So on most projects we FP test just on one rod when its less then 10 ohms we stop adding rods this can take us down to 40 feet or more .
> 
> When we are totally done meaning connecting all three rods with a 4/0 copper cad weld we test again at this time is not connected to any thing but the three rods in delta .
> ...


Again, I see no purpose for this whatsoever, other than it makes engineers feel good. 



> Now I can make a 60 watt blub burn via earth yes soil has resistance
> but its also were your at whos soil and how much soil resistance .


So what about areas with high soil resistance? 



> I do my own F/P testing on rods when you test current flows via earth to voltage test rod and current test rod to ground rod under test . That's via the soil now today they use a high frequency to eliminate interference .





> Now we have connected 18 rods not including the rebar matt building steel uffer ground cold water ground gas ground and every transformer on site inside the building . Current can flow from ground any place in building back to the source .


Why is the current flowing "from" the ground? The majority of the current will flow on the metallic path, not the ground. 



> Where not in a wooden structure were not using romex .


All buildings require a grounding electrode system by the NEC. The wiring method is not relevant either. In my area we have lots of concrete and steel commercial buildings wired completely with romex. They have the same grounding electrode systems that your buildings do. 



> The NEC is not even close to what we do so and I would say at 600 volts on our projects if you had a fault the breaker would trip via earth .


You would be completely wrong then. 



> Fact is were so low when all systems are tied together its .0001 ohms .


That's due to the many parallel metallic paths, not the earth.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

piperunner said:


> .
> 
> 
> Well a ELCB voltage sense in fact now they make a brk called a RCD current sense both operated by ground rod leakage. Basic operation was if in the case of voltage from any source the ELCB E for voltage L leakage via ground earth soil it t tripped.


Those are just European terms for GFCI's and they operate under the same principles. GFCI's have nothing to do with the earth and don't require an earth connection to operate. 




> They can sense voltage from earth they can work on any level of voltage does not have to be 4160 v it could be 480 v or 208 volts .


Wrong, they compare the current between two or more phases, if there is an imbalance, they trip. The current may very well be leaking into the earth but the device does not care about that. All it knows is that there is an imbalance so it must disconnect the circuit. 




> GFI do you use these we use them on everything above 1000amps .


The protection you speak of is GFPE and it has nothing to do with personnel safety. It is to prevent catastrophic destruction of electrical equipment due to high fault currents available on high amperage, 480Y/277 volt systems. 






> Ground rods are important and serve a purpose other than just a lighting strike in commercial work just go past the code book a little theres lots of things your missing .


What purpose do they serve exactly? They certainly don't serve a fault clearing function for building wiring. You haven't defended your case at all other than telling us what you do on big jobs with engineers specs. What electrical principle or theory can you point to that will demonstrate to us how important grounding electrodes are for fault clearing?




> Lets caluculate my rods at .0001 ohmies its almost like a conductor. fact it has less resistance then some of my ground wire in raceways so which path would it take . since I cant add or subtract and only run pipe iam a little out of touch with complex math or formulas .


There is not the slightest chance in the world that the ground rods connected to earth are a better conductor than metallic paths via raceways and wire bonding conductors. Not even the slightest chance. If you believe they are, then I can only classify you as delusional.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

I have no particular interest in getting into this argument, the only thing I can add is that if they do require ultra low resistance electrode specs for high-rises in Florida, I would bet dollars to donuts it's for the lightning protection system.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Big John said:


> I have no particular interest in getting into this argument,


Yes you do. :laughing:




> the only thing I can add is that if they do require ultra low resistance electrode specs for high-rises in Florida, I would bet dollars to donuts it's for the lightning protection system.


No doubt about that. However, PR stated that it was for the building wiring that he installs. I don't know much about LPS but I'm guessing it requires its own electrodes that must be connected to the building wiring GES?


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

rWell there's a lot of things you don't know MTW .

Let me start with if you drill a hole in the earth in Florida you hit water at 25 ft or less.Most of the ground rods are at 40 foot so the clay limestone and organic soil resistivity is far less then up north. So rods sphere of influence is greater which depth is increased greatly .

That means we are at the lowest resistance you can find which is the best grounding system in the USA .

Yes all lighting protect is connected to the main service grounding electrode per spec . All transformers in house all are 100 percent connected back to the ground rod system in the event of a fault if the neutral was lost the current would go to ground earth and branch its way till it dissipates into the good old earth . Yes I say soil earth can conduct current that's how a 4 point ground tester works via soil . 

Why do you think we get hit by lighting the most because were below sea level plus exposed on all sides by water. 

When you go deep the rod surface area is increased which now can handle more ampacitiy do to the sphere of influence more current can be discharged into the earth . Clay is low resistance like 20 ohms per 875 ft think distance from rod to rod limestone is low resistance 50 ohms per 875 ft and organic soil which is common here is 10 ohms per 875 ft . If the rods are 30 ft apart and 40 ft down you have a lower resistance than the grounding conductor in you raceway . 

Touch voltage equal potential of all objects sensitive equipment and a return path under a major fault . 

We bond everything not just you 200 amp MCP like on your projects .

You think all we do is high rises I've only done one in 35 plus years and it was a 35 story project . 

We do the high voltage switch yards and also the med voltage pwr that includes the 480 volt services to projects .The 25 ohm code rule is a joke 
not on my home and your galvanized rods that only last a few years and corrode and you don't have a ground to earth . 

Install copper ones at .0001 ohms and it will take the fault and trip the breaker if needed when you lost the ground in the blast in the raceway .

Yes at 25 ohms it wont work but at zero ohms it just might .

What if your ground over time was lost or your conduit lost its metal connection like a flex connection or the ground wire in raceway were would the fault go least resistance or would it just hang out and wait for that 25 ohm rod per NEC .What happens if you lost your neutral in house or just at one transformer in the building . Do you trust a 25 ohm rod I don't .


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

piperunner said:


> rWell there's a lot of things you don't know MTW .


Yup, and that applies to you as well, especially when it comes to the subject of grounding and bonding. 



> Let me start with if you drill a hole in the earth in Florida you hit water at 25 ft or less.Most of the ground rods are at 40 foot so the clay limestone and organic soil resistivity is far less then up north. So rods sphere of influence is greater which depth is increased greatly .
> 
> That means we are at the lowest resistance you can find which is the best grounding system in the USA .


Which is irrelevant because the NEC doesn't recognize the earth as a fault current clearing path. That's the job of the main bonding jumper. I'm very surprised that you can't wrap your head around such a simple concept. :blink:



> Yes all lighting protect is connected to the main service grounding electrode per spec . All transformers in house all are 100 percent connected back to the ground rod system in the event of a fault if the neutral was lost the current would go to ground earth and branch its way till it dissipates into the good old earth .


Again, this shows your complete lack of understanding on this subject. The current is not going to "dissipate" into the earth. It's going to try to find its way to the source. The earth is not a recognized return current path for this purpose. Even under ideal circumstances and you lose your service neutral, you're still going to have some fluctuating voltages due to the earth being an erratic conductor. 



> Yes I say soil earth can conduct current that's how a 4 point ground tester works via soil .


I also agree that the earth is conductive. 




> Why do you think we get hit by lighting the most because were below sea level plus exposed on all sides by water.


I thought it had to do with the weather patterns in Florida. 



> When you go deep the rod surface area is increased which now can handle more ampacitiy do to the sphere of influence more current can be discharged into the earth . Clay is low resistance like 20 ohms per 875 ft think distance from rod to rod limestone is low resistance 50 ohms per 875 ft and organic soil which is common here is 10 ohms per 875 ft . If the rods are 30 ft apart and 40 ft down you have a lower resistance than the grounding conductor in you raceway .


Which is all irrelevant since the earth is not a recognized equipment grounding conductor.



> Touch voltage equal potential of all objects sensitive equipment and a return path under a major fault .





> We bond everything not just you 200 amp MCP like on your projects .


I'm well aware of bonding requirements for all occupancies. 



> You think all we do is high rises I've only done one in 35 plus years and it was a 35 story project .
> 
> We do the high voltage switch yards and also the med voltage pwr that includes the 480 volt services to projects .The 25 ohm code rule is a joke
> not on my home and your galvanized rods that only last a few years and corrode and you don't have a ground to earth .


I'm not worried about losing the connection to earth one bit. I'm more concerned about the main bonding jumper. How do electrical systems function on airplanes where there is no connection to earth whatsoever? 



> Install copper ones at .0001 ohms and it will take the fault and trip the breaker if needed when you lost the ground in the blast in the raceway .


There is absolutely no chance you can get that low of an impedance with grounding electrodes. And once again, it's not the purpose of a grounding electrode system to provide a backup for equipment bonding. 




> Yes at 25 ohms it wont work but at zero ohms it just might .


I'm not putting any trust on a grounding electrode system when my life is at stake, no matter how low the impedance might be



> What if your ground over time was lost or your conduit lost its metal connection like a flex connection or the ground wire in raceway were would the fault go least resistance or would it just hang out and wait for that 25 ohm rod per NEC .


And once again you still think the purpose of the grounding electrode system is for fault clearing purposes. It is not. 




> What happens if you lost your neutral in house or just at one transformer in the building .


You would have a problem that needs to be corrected. The grounding electrode systems is not some stop gap to prevent a problem should a neutral connection be lost. The hazard exists as long as the neutral is open. Current would be flowing on the GES which is a hazard in itself. 




> Do you trust a 25 ohm rod I don't .


I don't trust grounding electrodes under any circumstances.


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

Well MTW your absolutely certain no one cant get .0001 ohms on a grounding system when the whole system is complete when every item is connected . You never have been on a large commercial or power plant project or a chip plant . 

Your reasons it wont work or it cant work are that you never have experience 
it but just read your code book and what most electricians think they have seen or know is the rule .

Trust me current will flow in earth not every place but it can and it doesn't have to be high voltage to do it .


Your lack of work experience shows plus your blinded by what others tell you 
I guess I need do a test and make a video .But that would be rigged and you would not believe it .

Would you believe it if I said I had a transformer that had lost its neutral 
completely disconnected from the core and the grounding electrode to ground rod worked fine for many years as a ground plane would to keep it stable and each phase at the same consistent voltage . Due to the fact the rods were close to transformer.

That worked due to that fact that it returned where it was not the center tap of the transformer were then or how could it work .


Why do we ground one side of a single phase 120 volt control transformer on its secondary side do you know why polarity of poles .

If you think a rod is for lighting your wrong fact is that's a joke .


lighting is at a high frequency and voltage at and above kilocycles and into mega cycles at that moment in time 
its at high frequency so how can it travel down a ground rod .


Would you believe a 3 point delta rod system has more capacitance then resistance why because at high frequency which is a lighting strike a conductor becomes a capacitor . 

Ill bet you code book doesn't teach that a wire becomes a capacitor 
the 3 rods will build up a charge and at some point it will discharge 
between them under ground via earth . Anything can conduct at some point .Thats why we go deep with rods and need a low resistance .

A 25 ohm rod would just blow out the top you have no protection from a strike the higher resistance would hold back the flow which needs to dissipate since it cant it would travel out on the surface above ground level .

Deep rods can change from a conductor with resistance to a capacitive circuit .

Well I know ships better the hull is the common ground point of return on a air craft carrier.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

……...


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

piperunner said:


> Well MTW your absolutely certain no one cant get .0001 ohms on a grounding system when the whole system is complete when every item is connected .


I already said that earlier, but you ignored it. The common parallel metallic paths of the building grounding and bonding system make up for the majority of that low impedance, not the earth itself. 



> You never have been on a large commercial or power plant project or a chip plant .


And your point is? I've never walked on the moon either. 



> Your reasons it wont work or it cant work are that you never have experience
> it but just read your code book and what most electricians think they have seen or know is the rule .


My reasons are based on Ohm's law and electrical principles, something you fail to grasp. 



> Trust me current will flow in earth not every place but it can and it doesn't have to be high voltage to do it .


The funny thing is that I've never said it won't. But you keep insisting that the earth is a suitable grounding path when it most certainly is not. 



> Your lack of work experience shows plus your blinded by what others tell you


Your lack of knowledge is what is showing. 





> Would you believe it if I said I had a transformer that had lost its neutral
> completely disconnected from the core and the grounding electrode to ground rod worked fine for many years as a ground plane would to keep it stable and each phase at the same consistent voltage . Due to the fact the rods were close to transformer.


I believe it's possible, but that situation is not safe nor is it NEC compliant. 



> That worked due to that fact that it returned where it was not the center tap of the transformer were then or how could it work .


I don't know, I wasn't there. I'm highly skeptical it's as you say it is, however. 




> Why do we ground one side of a single phase 120 volt control transformer on its secondary side do you know why polarity of poles .


Ahh no, that's not the reason at all. It's to provide a low impedance path back to the source. 



> If you think a rod is for lighting your wrong fact is that's a joke .


If you think it's for fault clearing, then that's the joke. 



> lighting is at a high frequency and voltage at and above kilocycles and into mega cycles at that moment in time
> its at high frequency so how can it travel down a ground rod .
> 
> 
> ...


Now you're a lightning expert too? :laughing:



> Well I know ships better the hull is the common ground point of return on a air craft carrier.


Let's stick with the aircraft. Please tell me how all that a/c equipment works on an airplane without a connection to earth.


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

MTW said:


> I already said that earlier, but you ignored it. The common parallel metallic paths of the building grounding and bonding system make up for the majority of that low impedance, not the earth itself.
> Will your wrong again I told you we get 1/4 of a ohm or less just from the delta rods .
> 
> 
> ...


I don't know about commercial aircraft but I know that a F-4 phantom didn't have AC .


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

piperunner said:


> I don't know about a commercial aircraft but I know that a F-4 phantom didn't have AC .


My point is that modern aircraft have loads of sensitive electronic equipment as well as an a/c system on them and there is no connection to earth or any earth reference whatsoever. It's not as important as you think it is.


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

MTW said:


> My point is that modern aircraft have loads of sensitive electronic equipment as well as an a/c system on them and there is no connection to earth or any earth reference whatsoever. It's not as important as you think it is.


 
Well are you talking about avionics communications or weapons systems spacecraft .
Or are we talking about a simple electrical service on good old conducting soil damp and wet earth you jump around a lot . 

Ask this question to yourself do you really think your a educated electrician or should I get a job at the airport because they don't need a ground rod and we don't have that 25 ohm rule to be compliant . 
Do you need a permit to work on a plane I wonder ? :thumbup:


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

piperunner said:


> Well are you talking about avionics communications or weapons systems spacecraft .
> Or are we talking about a simple electrical service on good old conducting soil damp and wet earth you jump around a lot .


I'm not jumping around. I'm using a prime example of electrical equipment that has absolutely no connection to earth to illustrate my point. You say it's extremely important. You can't have it both ways. If it's important for building wiring, it's important for all wiring. But planes and boats don't have grounding electrodes or a direct connection to earth at all. So you have to explain the inconsistency in your view. 



> Ask this question to yourself do you really think your a educated electrician or should I get a job at the airport because they don't need a ground rod and we don't have that 25 ohm rule to be compliant .
> Do you need a permit to work on a plane I wonder ? :thumbup:


I have no idea what relevance this has to the discussion at hand.


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## daks (Jan 16, 2013)

On an airplane, the sources are not connected to earth, Similar to a car. But they can have a different potential to earth.

I sat down with a guy who had recently got his PHD in grounding, my first thought (that thankfully I kept to myself) was "wtf, how can you get a phd in grounding, ground rods and ohms law sounds like an easy way to get a doctorate" . As regular Electricians and the codes we don't even scratch the surface of what is really involved in it. Let alone the theory.

We have to envision it as a whole system with ground rods all over the place connected back to the poco generator system and their grounding points. 

Can we move the grounding portion of this thread to a separate one as it is an EXCELLENT point of discussion and theory that is quite enlightening for most resi/commercial electricians. Maybe we can lure some of the poco guys to pipe in if you two can smile a little more and we can put the valid pieces of info you've shared into the whole puzzle's picture. 

Now back to the conduit ****!


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

daks said:


> We have to envision it as a whole system with ground rods all over the place connected back to the poco generator system and their grounding points.



I get what you're saying, but the utility distribution system and premises wiring are two completely different animals. It's an apples to oranges comparison. Furthermore, the NEC does not allow the multi grounded neutral that utilities make extensive use of in their systems.


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

MTW said:


> I'm not jumping around. I'm using a prime example of electrical equipment that has absolutely no connection to earth to illustrate my point. You say it's extremely important. You can't have it both ways. If it's important for building wiring, it's important for all wiring. But planes and boats don't have grounding electrodes or a direct connection to earth at all. So you have to explain the inconsistency in your view.
> 
> 
> 
> I have no idea what relevance this has to the discussion at hand.


 Well we all know that a aircraft is not connected to a ground rod so why would you ask me that question .

But all aircraft will be bonded when there on the ground that I do know its clipped to ground when chocked .

Even a ship uses the hull for a ground reference for equalizing of electrical equipment theres a lot of DC power but also AC power ship board .

Would you believe me if I told you that a aircraft carrier has lightning protection . 









Now your touching on ships


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

piperunner said:


> Well we all know that a aircraft is not connected to a ground rod so why would you ask me that question .


I'm trying to get you to admit that an a.c. system doesn't need a ground reference to operate. I know you won't, but I'm trying anyway. :laughing:



> But all aircraft will be bonded when there on the ground that I do know its clipped to ground when chocked .
> 
> Even a ship uses the hull for a ground reference for equalizing of electrical equipment theres a lot of DC power but also AC power ship board .


The hull is used to bond everything together, but unless it's connected to earth it doesn't truly have a ground reference. Sea water is conductive but there's no way to predict how much conductivity it will have in any given area. 



> Would you believe me if I told you that a aircraft carrier has lightning protection .


Yes, I would believe that and I'd be curious how they accomplish it on a ship.











> Now your touching on ships


Only because they don't have grounding electrode systems like buildings do.


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## AllWIRES (Apr 10, 2014)

How long will this pee pee contest go????

Tune in next time, same pee pee time same pee pee channel...


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

MTW said:


> I'm trying to get you to admit that an a.c. system doesn't need a ground reference to operate. I know you won't, but I'm trying anyway. :laughing:
> 
> It can operate and yes why would I say no . But a grounding system in a building should have a grounding system and at the lowest resistance you will never get me to sway away from that my friend .
> 
> ...


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## daks (Jan 16, 2013)

MTW said:


> I get what you're saying, but the utility distribution system and premises wiring are two completely different parts of one overall system.


fify :whistling2:


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

piperunner said:


> It can operate and yes why would I say no . But a grounding system in a building should have a grounding system and at the lowest resistance you will never get me to sway away from that my friend .


That's fine, I didn't expect you to change your mind. I agree that a building should have a grounding electrode system as well. I just don't place as much importance or reliance on it as you do. 



> But its not a good practice yes a aircraft doesn't need a ground rod but trust me its bonded internally .


Yes, and that bond is what is important. 






> Its ground reference is the ship itself plus the ocean connection . let me ask you this what is capacitance


The electrical property that opposes a change in voltage, caused by electrostatics. 



> do you know that salt water is a conductor its a mineral also you can make a capacitor with a bottle of salt water and a copper rod .


I know salt water is conductive. I wasn't aware that you could make a capacitor that way. What are the plates and where is the electrostatic field?



> Well using 40 foot rods these are motorized and lower down when out at sea there on each side of the flight deck a special cable runs down to the keel they hang over the sides almost touching the sea during a lightning strike if and when they take the hit it passes the charge to the sea which is a lower resistance than the hull at high frequency and high voltage current tracks on the surface these are not made of copper its a carbon based material looks like a fiber glass rod . We get hit its real important to limit this since the deck has live weapons AV jet fuel liquid oxygen on deck .It is also used for static charges that can build up during sea going or pass a surface bolt from one side of the ship to the other discharge bypass you could say .Lightning tracks on the surface at sea branches out you see more lightning when out at sea then you do on land .


Good info, thanks. :thumbsup:


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

daks said:


> fify :whistling2:


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

Well you can make a capacitor using a beer bottle rap some copper tape around the outside of the bottle install a copper rod down the inside fill it with non ionized pure salt 30 /50 water. Seal up the top hook it up to ac power at any voltage one lead on the top rod one lead attached on the tape on the outside wrap around the bottle your done . You can test the bottle cap with a fluke meter that has a capacitance option to see what you made .

Option two if you really need a larger capacitor get a glass tank 100 %
glass take 32 #4 square electrical blank covers wire them in series to increase voltage rating attach with crimp eyelets .

Each plate has its own wire attached you must build a non conductive support for these and you must install your dielectric of a simple sheet of Reynolds sandwich wrap between each plate . 

You can add more or change the banks of plates to paralleled connection to increase C . But with high voltage series is the best if you have a major load a big watt maker the series and paralleled banks are needed. Series for high voltage and parallel will be for power output .

Yes your standard sandwich wrap you use everyday trust me its good for thousands of volts per mill thickness. 

That sandwich rap is what we use when we high pot high voltage cable we rap it around the termination and test the other end at and up to 75,000 volts two raps so its a good dielectric .

Why glass because its going to get real hot in the tank depends on what voltage your at and the amount of watts needed it will or can boil the water if its not built to handle the load or design properly . You can fill the tank with mineral oil that will limit temp and over flash when your voltage input is real high meaning 25,000 volts on that level.

You must build it to your design capacitance needed then it will run cooler that's the trick .

I have filled them with mineral oil works great and less chance of a burn out and they can get hot if under rated for your application .


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

What are you using these homemade caps for?


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## Ultrafault (Dec 16, 2012)

MTW said:


> What are you using these homemade caps for?


Grounding obviously.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Ultrafault said:


> Grounding obviously.


Ok, that was good. :laughing::laughing:


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

MTW said:


> What are you using these homemade caps for?



Well


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## CoJay (Dec 8, 2011)

Great looking work piperunner. Did you work with a couple of guys named Chance and Renzo? Did you invent the jet line measuring tool?


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## Holop (Sep 8, 2008)

Looks professional really nice being busy.


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

CoJay said:


> Great looking work piperunner. Did you work with a couple of guys named Chance and Renzo? Did you invent the jet line measuring tool?


Well Renzo was one of my best electricians but he quit don't know were he is now. I dont know Chance whos that ? This is what I enjoy making and yes I made the Stringking that's one of the reasons I come to the forums but seems no one is interested in the tool so I put it in the attic they said it was a waste of money and that they could measure better with a tape measure .
So my inventive days are over . LOL Weres Renzo at now you know !


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Nice work piperunner. :thumbsup: (The pipework and the lightning globes)


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## chewy (May 9, 2010)

MTW said:


> Nice work piperunner. :thumbsup: (The pipework and the lightning globes)


Lol.


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

MTW said:


> Nice work piperunner. :thumbsup: (The pipework and the lightning globes)


Well you like the globes I've been making these weird things since I was a kid from scratch.
we have noble gas tanks ovens glass welding torches low pressure vacuums lots of neon valves and equipment a glass cast oven dryer .
Neon Argon Krypton xenon helium even have liquid Mercury which is hard to come by theses days. 

I make the electronics for these and wind my own coils you can touch the Plasma globes but my lighting in the bottle you don't touch its at 80KV. 

It will shock you passes completely to your skin right passed the glass dielectric . Capacitance you become the other plate at that voltage its lots of fun and at 25khz it stings.Plus breathing in all the Ozone in my shop has effected my lungs so its not a safe pass time not for everyone .:laughing:


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