# Max Number Of Receptacles on GFI Protected Circuit?



## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

You would have to check the MFG's instructions [110.3(B)]


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

In a residence the NEC does not put a limit on it, but the physics of the conductor insulation does. The longer the circuit the greater the leakage current and the more likely the GFCI is to trip.


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## machasman (Mar 10, 2009)

Treat it just as you would any receptical circuit


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

I remember years ago there was a footage of cable that could be on the "protected" side of a GFCI. I won't say what that number was because I'm not positive it was not a myth. I will suggest that you refer to the manufactor for this information. Like Brian John said the longer the run the more problems


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## patriot1 (Feb 16, 2009)

usually 8 max


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

patriot1 said:


> usually 8 max


where did you get this number?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

patriot1 said:


> usually 8 max


Personal preference? Local requirement? Not an NEC rule.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

patriot1 said:


> usually 8 max


According to.......


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## bauler (Jan 2, 2008)

brian john said:


> In a residence the NEC does not put a limit on it, but the physics of the conductor insulation does. The longer the circuit the greater the leakage current and the more likely the GFCI is to trip.


 
But wouldn't the leakage (resistance) be the same for both conductors? Therefore cancel each other out. I guess if you had a bad connection from point A to B on one conductor with a heavy load on B that would pop the GFI.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

bauler said:


> But wouldn't the leakage (resistance) be the same for both conductors? Therefore cancel each other out. I guess if you had a bad connection from point A to B on one conductor with a heavy load on B that would pop the GFI.


All insulation has leakage, which is why meggr readings range from full scale to "0" megohms. Leakage would be to ground in most cases (NM MC in particular) resulting in a trip of the GFCI.


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## crazyboy (Nov 8, 2008)

brian john said:


> All insulation has leakage, which is why meggr readings range from full scale to "0" megohms. Leakage would be to ground in most cases (NM MC in particular) resulting in a trip of the GFCI.


So then how does this affect a gfci breaker?


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## chenley (Feb 20, 2007)

The only 8' rule I can think of is for cord length for manufacturers. The 'ol minimum of 6' and maximum of 8'. Oddly enough I had read that on a piece of paper that came with a camera last night.


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## machasman (Mar 10, 2009)

The code allows you to load a circuit to 80% of its overcurrent rating and each receptical is counted as 180 Watts' so 15A X 120V = 1800 Watts/.8= 1440 Watts=180= 8 recepticals

20A X 120V = 2400 Watts X .8 = 1920/180 =10.6

Remember these are the minimum requirements I have always use 75% instead of 80.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

crazyboy said:


> So then how does this affect a gfci breaker?


 
A GFCI operates with a zero sequence CT arragement, current out has to return, 5 amps out on the ungrounded conductor, 5 amps return on the grounded conductor.

If you have leakage current on the conductors (which all conductor insulation has) that exceeds the GFCI threshold the GFCI will see the current inbalance and trip the unit.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

machasman said:


> The code allows you to load a circuit to 80% of its overcurrent rating and each receptacle is counted as 180 Watts' so 15A X 120V = 1800 Watts/.8= 1440 Watts=180= 8 receptacle
> 
> 20A X 120V = 2400 Watts X .8 = 1920/180 =10.6
> 
> Remember these are the minimum requirements I have always use 75% instead of 80.


This is not applicable in a residence. Maybe a good practice but not NEC.

Install two circuits 40 receptacles on one circuit and one receptacle on the other circuit and the lady of the house will overload the single receptacle.


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## machasman (Mar 10, 2009)

I'm pretty sure its in the code when you are calculating the service load, Although residential may be an exception. dont do much res. I can remember learning that in my master's test prep

But I could be wrong about it being code but its how I have always done it


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## jayare813 (Mar 12, 2009)

each recepticle is 1.5 non-continous load and 1.9 continous load meaing if its goin be consumed for 3 or more hrs each recep. should be calculated 1.9 amps...


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

jayare813 said:


> each recepticle is 1.5 non-continous load and 1.9 continous load meaing if its goin be consumed for 3 or more hrs each recep. should be calculated 1.9 amps...


1.5 and 1.9 what? Amps? Where does these numbers come from?


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

Let the myths begin


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)




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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

If you're gonna post a Ouija board, post one that works!


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

480sparky said:


> If you're gonna post a Ouija board, post one that works!



:blink:...yours is broken...it goes by itself...with the one I posted, you hover your pointer/cursor over it and it will lead the pointer around/cursor.


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## patriot1 (Feb 16, 2009)

cool


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## patriot1 (Feb 16, 2009)

Max amps on a 15 amp breaker...x 80% = 12 amps
1.5 amps per outlet x 8= 12 amps......therefore 8 on a 15 amp circuit.

20 amp breaker... x 80% = 16 amps
1.5 amps x 10 outlets = 15 amps 

both are acceptable according to the OUJI board


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

patriot1 said:


> Max amps on a 15 amp breaker...x 80% = 12 amps
> 1.5 amps per outlet x 8= 12 amps......therefore 8 on a 15 amp circuit.
> 
> 20 amp breaker... x 80% = 16 amps
> ...


you still never said where you got 8 as the max outlets on the load side of a gfi.....as far as those numbers..i dont think there is a max. number of outlets according to code....but i generally try to have no more than 13 on a 20 and 10 on a 15


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

patriot1 said:


> Max amps on a 15 amp breaker...x 80% = 12 amps
> 1.5 amps per outlet x 8= 12 amps......therefore 8 on a 15 amp circuit.
> 
> 20 amp breaker... x 80% = 16 amps
> ...


The OUIJA board also said I was going to rich and drive a limo :blink:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Celtic said:


> :blink:...yours is broken...it goes by itself...with the one I posted, you hover your pointer/cursor over it and it will lead the pointer around/cursor.


Then yours is broken, too. It don't do nuttin.


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## jayare813 (Mar 12, 2009)

each recepticle is rated 180va which is apperante power so if you knew your ohms law 480 sparky and math it would be easy 180 divide by 120volts= 1.5 amps...thats for a non continuos load.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

I never use GFI breakers or use one to feed more on the load side. It has always been less of a problem to use "point of use" GFI'S. Besides.. your customers will *NEVER* use the test button like you tell them too and you get to change them all in a few years :thumbup:


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## gilbequick (Oct 6, 2007)

jayare813 said:


> each recepticle is rated 180va which is apperante power so if you knew your ohms law 480 sparky and math it would be easy 180 divide by 120volts= 1.5 amps...thats for a non continuos load.


How do you know what the OP is talking about? Is he talking about a residential or commercial application? If he's talking about residential show me where what you said applies to anything.


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## machasman (Mar 10, 2009)

7 and 10


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## jbfan (Jan 22, 2007)

machasman said:


> Im telling you how its done, get you face out of the codebook and start working, after you have been doing it for 30 years then we can talk.
> 
> I have never taken work from any union guys in fact i manage 6 of them we use as contractors.
> 
> ...


Nice rant!. I never saw anything in this thread about union/non-union!
Maybe I haven't been working 30 years, ok maybe i have.:jester:

It is hard to work in this field IF you never have your face in the code book.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

brian john said:


> In a residence the NEC does not put a limit on it


The CEC has a limit for residential. CEC 12-3000 No more than 12 outlets period, 15 or 20 amp circuit. :no:

My magic number is 8, twelve is too much!


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## Randy L (Jun 11, 2008)

Wow! Never knew this was such a heated topic! This question was for my adolescent health treatment facility. My boss was wanting to have all receptacles in the sleeping areas GFCI protected. I told him the cheapest way would be to install a GFCI receptacle at the beginning of the circuit, thus protecting the outlets after it. Some circuits, according to the prints, serve multiple rooms and hallway receptcales.

That's what drove my question. I knew the 80% load limiting, and the rooms only have clock radios so overloading is not an issue. 

Installing GFCI breakers for the circuits would have cost over $7K.


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## sparky970 (Mar 19, 2008)

I don't have my code book in front of me, but I thought you were allowed to protect 3 additional outlets from 1 GFCI recptacle.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

sparky970 said:


> I don't have my code book in front of me, but I thought you were allowed to protect 3 additional outlets from 1 GFCI recptacle.


Never been an NEC issue.



jayare813 said:


> each recepticle is rated 180va which is apperante power so if you knew your ohms law 480 sparky and math it would be easy 180 divide by 120volts= 1.5 amps...thats for a non continuos load.


180va is for _calculating the service load only_. 180va works out to 1.5 amps. You're saying you can only load a 15 or 20 amp receptacle to 1.5 amps? How does your fridge work then?

15a receptacles are rated 15 amps. 20a receps are rated 20 amps. Simple as that.


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## jayare813 (Mar 12, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Never been an NEC issue.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


of course there rated for 15 or 20 amps.. I never said there not....Im just anwsering the question on calculating loads for a recepticle....1.5x12=18...but you should always caluculate at least 1 device to be 1.9 to be safe for a continous load. Im not saying each device is rated 1.5 amps....im saying it should be calculated 1.5amps when calculating a circuit


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## piette (Feb 7, 2008)

Randy L said:


> Wow! Never knew this was such a heated topic!


It really isn't, it just becomes a heated topic when people make up their own codes in their head and then try to tell everyone that is what the code says. 

The only way you will know if their is a limit is to read what comes with the GFCI. If that manufacturer limits the number then you are limited to that. The NEC has no written limit on the number of receptacles that can be protected by a single GFCI.

Jeff


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

jayare813 said:


> of course there rated for 15 or 20 amps.. I never said there not....Im just anwsering the question on calculating loads for a recepticle....1.5x12=18...but you should always caluculate at least 1 device to be 1.9 to be safe for a continous load. Im not saying each device is rated 1.5 amps....im saying it should be calculated 1.5amps when calculating a circuit


yes, good practice...but i don't think its a code viloation to have say...20 oulets on a 20 amp circuit


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## jayare813 (Mar 12, 2009)

NolaTigaBait said:


> yes, good practice...but i don't think its a code viloation to have say...20 oulets on a 20 amp circuit


 
actually its not a good practice its the code read article 220.14 I....


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## KayJay (Jan 20, 2008)

Randy L said:


> Wow! Never knew this was such a heated topic! This question was for my adolescent health treatment facility. My boss was wanting to have all receptacles in the sleeping areas GFCI protected. I told him the cheapest way would be to install a GFCI receptacle at the beginning of the circuit, thus protecting the outlets after it. Some circuits, according to the prints, serve multiple rooms and hallway receptcales.
> 
> That's what drove my question. I knew the 80% load limiting, and the rooms only have clock radios so overloading is not an issue.
> 
> Installing GFCI breakers for the circuits would have cost over $7K.


I can’t recall ever seeing a restriction on the number of receptacles that can be supplied downstream of a GFCI receptacle or blank face device, so I reviewed the listed instructions included with the P&S, Leviton, Cooper and some generic brand that I stock for my cheapskate Craigslist customers. They make no reference to such a restriction, so let good wiring practice be your guide here. As noted, excessively long runs can lead to nuisance tripping. I personally feel it’s generally not a good idea to feed receptacles in a different room or common areas downstream from a GFCI receptacle in another room, as it can become chaotic locating the GFCI to reset it if it trips.

I commend your boss for trying to make a safer installation, but if they are not on the specs and no change order approved, don’t cut your own throat. 
Will you be using Tamper Resistant receptacles?

For a dwelling unit, let your conscience be your guide as to the number of general purpose receptacle outlets on a branch circuit because there is no NEC limit, but since this sounds like it is a *non-dwelling *application, 220.14, Branch-Circuit Load Calculations applies for branch circuit receptacle outlet loading, not merely for service and feeder calcs. 
Using 220.14, a maximum of 13 receptacle outlets are allowed on a 20A circuit. They can be single or dulpex and still only counts as one receptacle.
The exception would be for simultaneous and non-simultaneous use of receptacles on multi-outlet assemblies [Plugmold] and single piece of equipment with four or more receptacles.
You don’t need to allow for 80% max load on a branch circuit used for these receptacles, the 80% limit is on the receptacle itself. 16A max load on a 20A receptacle, see Table 210.21,B[2]. The 125% [80% max] branch circuit rating your thinking of applies to equipment on individual branch circuits.

Note: using the 2008 NEC for reference.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

jayare813 said:


> of course there rated for 15 or 20 amps.. I never said there not....Im just anwsering the question on calculating loads for a recepticle....1.5x12=18...but you should always caluculate at least 1 device to be 1.9 to be safe for a continous load. Im not saying each device is rated 1.5 amps....im saying it should be calculated 1.5amps when calculating a circuit


I don't understand your logic. How do you calculate an unknown load?

Suppose you have a GFI in your garage that feeds 4 outside receps. What is the load on those outside receps? String trmmer? Landscape lighting? Holiday decorations? I've seen outside receps that look like they've never been used. How do you calculate that?

Put the same GFI in a kitchen, and install 2 downstream receps. Now you've got a coffee maker, toaster and micro going all at once.


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## jayare813 (Mar 12, 2009)

480sparky said:


> I don't understand your logic. How do you calculate an unknown load?
> 
> Suppose you have a GFI in your garage that feeds 4 outside receps. What is the load on those outside receps? String trmmer? Landscape lighting? Holiday decorations? I've seen outside receps that look like they've never been used. How do you calculate that?
> 
> Put the same GFI in a kitchen, and install 2 downstream receps. Now you've got a coffee maker, toaster and micro going all at once.


 
N.E.C 220.14 I explains my logic


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

jayare813 said:


> N.E.C 220.14 I explains my logic


I still don't get it. 180va per is the max you're going to load a recep?


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## jayare813 (Mar 12, 2009)

480sparky said:


> I still don't get it. 180va per is the max you're going to load a recep?


 
no 180va is what it each device should be calculated from a branch circuit


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

jayare813 said:


> no 180va is what it each device should be calculated from a branch circuit


Not in a residence.


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

jayare813 said:


> actually its not a good practice its the code read article 220.14 I....


no, its not......but thanks for playing


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## patriot1 (Feb 16, 2009)

On page 112 of the 2008 code, 220.14 says - other loads---*ALL occupancies.*

220.14 I 
180va (watts) per duplex/triplex or individual single outlet
180 watts/120 volts= 1.5 amps

1.5 amps x 8 recepts = 12 amps max on a 15 amp circuit. This what I am getting at along with man..

Even if outside receptacles cant be counted like 480 said, you still have to account for other recepts on the same circuit.
The code does say max 10 recepts on a 15 amp breaker and 13 on a 20 amp in 220.4 but does not say how many GFCI's.

Next time you open a GFCI box, look to see how many "protected BY" stickers are in there. P & S has 7 stickers. They put the quantity in there for a reason, 1 gfci receptacle and 7 non-gfci receptacles stickers...adding up to 8 receptacles on a gfci.
Why would someone want 40 recepts on a GFCI anyway. 

Health care facilities are considered exceptions in 220 and 517 of the code gfci are not always used. Read carefully and save yourself money.

I have really enjoyed this discussion on GFCI's. I like to hear others input and hope others are as open minded as I am.


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## KayJay (Jan 20, 2008)

patriot1 said:


> On page 112 of the 2008 code, 220.14 says - other loads---*ALL occupancies.*
> 
> 220.14 I
> 180va (watts) per duplex/triplex or individual single outlet
> ...


You could certainly apply those restrictions to your residential installations if you wanted, but those aren't NEC requirements. 
Continue on and read 220.14 [J], Dwelling Occupancies then even 220.16 as well.
For resi, the allowance for general-purpose branch circuit receptacle loads has already been made through the general lighting load calcs done for the service and feeder calcs.
For other than dwelling units, 20A X 120V = 2400W /180VA = 13 maximum receptacle outlets on a 20A circuit. No further calcs or reductions are required.
The NEC states receptacle outlets and makes no differentiation as to the whether they are standard or GFCI receptacle outlets. See 406.3, D[3] about use of those stickers. 
There is also no 80% load limitation on a branch circuit used with these receptacles. 
The 80% limitation is on the receptacles themselves based on Table 210.21,B[2], which states 16A maximum load on a 20A receptacle. 
So, as far as the NEC is concerned, your 20A branch circuit is now already sized at 125% of the maximum load because of this supposed receptacle load limitation, but the NEC makes no differentiation as to continuous or non-continuous loads on receptacle outlets. It states only one value and that is the maximum regardless as to whether the load is plugged in for 10-minutes or 10-years. 
In reality though, the NEC is a paper tiger here, because it is impossible to have any real control over what is plugged in after the installation is complete. Presumably manufactures are designing their cord and plug connected equipment within these parameters, but this still doesn’t prevent someone from possibly overloading a receptacle outlet by using an adapter or even a branch circuit by plugging in multiple pieces of equipment into several of these receptacles at once. *This is where design issues come into play. *


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

look guy, if 480sparky says something its probably right....so just go with it.....and i seriously doubt just because they put seven stickers with a gfi that means its can protect up to seven outlets...


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## jayare813 (Mar 12, 2009)

brian john said:


> Not in a residence.


 
In 220.12 it specifies the type of occupancy and dwelling units is one of them


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## jayare813 (Mar 12, 2009)

NolaTigaBait said:


> no, its not......but thanks for playing


 
In 220.12 it specifies the type of occupancy and dwelling units is one of them


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

> For resi, the allowance for general-purpose branch circuit receptacle loads has already been made through the general lighting load calcs done for the service and feeder calcs.


this is how its done...its by the square foot, theres a minimum amount of general branch circuits


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## patriot1 (Feb 16, 2009)

Ok lets say this. If code says you can have 10 recepts on a 15amp circuit and 13 on a 20 amp.........let this be a common practice for GFCIs also.


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## electricista (Jan 11, 2009)

patriot1 said:


> Ok lets say this. If code says you can have 10 recepts on a 15amp circuit and 13 on a 20 amp.........let this be a common practice for GFCIs also.


In a residence the code does not limit the number of receptacles on a circuit.


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

chenley said:


> The only 8' rule I can think of is for cord length for manufacturers. The 'ol minimum of 6' and maximum of 8'. Oddly enough I had read that on a piece of paper that came with a camera last night.


nobody is talking about footage of cords dude. Pay attention.


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

machasman said:


> The code allows you to load a circuit to 80% of its overcurrent rating and each receptical is counted as 180 Watts' so 15A X 120V = 1800 Watts/.8= 1440 Watts=180= 8 recepticals
> 
> 20A X 120V = 2400 Watts X .8 = 1920/180 =10.6
> 
> Remember these are the minimum requirements I have always use 75% instead of 80.


so, if you had a customer in a home that wanted a new receptacle added in an upstairs bedroom, and the panel is in the basement, and the existing circuit has let's say 10 receptacles and a couple of lights on it but nothing much being plugged into these outlets, are you going to add a new circuit for this? If so then great as long as you have no problem selling this to the homeowner, but I would never even try to do this. I would simply tap off of the existing, as I can sleep knowing that I did the job correctly and didn't overkill it and rip off the HO.


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## patriot1 (Feb 16, 2009)

the code does say it...... 10 on a 15a and 13 on a 20a


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

patriot1 said:


> the code does say it...... 10 on a 15a and 13 on a 20a


not in a house


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## electricista (Jan 11, 2009)

patriot1 said:


> the code does say it...... 10 on a 15a and 13 on a 20a


Show me where. You have made a lot of statements tonight in different threads but you have not backed up anything with a code article. I am not trying to be a smart ass but you can't just keep stating things that are code without backing it up.


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## 76nemo (Aug 13, 2008)

patriot1 said:


> the code does say it...... 10 on a 15a and 13 on a 20a


 
No, it doesn't. The code states what is called for by footage and wall space, but code does NOT say how many receps are allowed on a branch in a residence. What I would REALLY like to know myself is what does this have ANYTHING to do with GFCI protection?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

patriot1 said:


> the code does say it...... 10 on a 15a and 13 on a 20a


Teach me, Master Po.


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## 76nemo (Aug 13, 2008)

480sparky said:


> Teach me, Master Po.


 
I think Ken just ended this


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## MarkyMark (Jan 31, 2009)

From the Pass & Seymour GFCI FAQ - Still doesn't clear up much though.
http://www.passandseymour.com/knowh...faqcategory=Ground Fault Circuit Interrupters

*Q:* *How many receptacles can be installed and protected on the load side a Pass & Seymour/Legrand GFCI?*

*A:* The number of receptacles installed downstream of a GFCI will be determined by the size of the branch circuit and the estimated load. It is not uncommon to have four to six receptacles being protected downstream from a GFCI.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

MarkyMark said:


> From the Pass & Seymour GFCI FAQ - Still It is not uncommon to have four to six receptacles being protected downstream from a GFCI.


 
Well that explains NOTHING.


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## patriot1 (Feb 16, 2009)

wow i could save a whole lot of money, use #12-2 and wire the whole house on 1 circuit....except for the 220s..


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## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

patriot1 said:


> wow i could save a whole lot of money, use #12-2 and wire the whole house on 1 circuit....except for the 220s..


Just curious, what type of work do you do, residential/commercial/industrial or all of the above. The numbers you provided are part of the myths such as you must have a JB every 100'. Those numbers you gave belong in commercial work. Another question for you, can you use 15 amp rated recepticles on a 20 amp branch circuit or must they be rated 20 amp.


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## jbfan (Jan 22, 2007)

patriot1 said:


> wow i could save a whole lot of money, use #12-2 and wire the whole house on 1 circuit....except for the 220s..


 Nope. You still have the laundry circuit and the 2 kitchen circuits!:whistling2:


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

jbfan said:


> Nope. You still have the laundry circuit and the 2 kitchen circuits!:whistling2:


and the bathroom gfci circuits


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

rlc3854 said:


> can you use 15 amp rated recepticles on a 20 amp branch circuit or must they be rated 20 amp.


 
yes you can


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

I have 11 recepts. on a 15A ckt in my little girls room...I hope I can sleep tonight knowing how insanely overloaded/undersized this design is.


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## patriot1 (Feb 16, 2009)

rlc3854 said:


> Just curious, what type of work do you do, residential/commercial/industrial or all of the above. The numbers you provided are part of the myths such as you must have a JB every 100'. Those numbers you gave belong in commercial work. Another question for you, can you use 15 amp rated recepticles on a 20 amp branch circuit or must they be rated 20 amp.


 
Comm/resi, prefer comm..idustry too slow, resi no money and commercial fast pace, use the braine get the wob cebs out

Yes your answer.

Here *cista!*
210.21b-3

*Breaker* *Receptacle*
15 15
20 15-20
30 30
40 40-50
50 50


crap forgot about 210.21-3...bath laundry circuits:blink:

code 220.12 and 14

max numb of outlets on a circuit 10-13..15a-20a....restriction DOES Not apply to lighting or small appliance....think ill have another beeerrkfjd :drink:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

patriot1 said:


> .........210.21b-3
> 
> 
> *Breaker* *Receptacle*
> ...


Says nothing about the number of receps. Says nothing about GFCIs.



patriot1 said:


> .........code 220.12 and 14
> 
> max numb of outlets on a circuit 10-13..15a-20a....restriction DOES Not apply to lighting or small appliance....think ill have another beeerrkfjd :drink:


 
220.12 is about lighting loads. Says nothing about the number of receps. Says nothing about GFCIs.

220.14 says nothing about GFCIs.


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## seo (Oct 28, 2008)

Celtic said:


> The OUIJA board also said I was going to rich and drive a limo :blink:


Did you mean that you were going to own a limo or drive a limo for somebody else?


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## electricista (Jan 11, 2009)

patriot1 said:


> Yes your answer.
> Here *cista!*
> 210.21b-3


I didn't ask that question but I am sure RLC3854 appreciates the answer. 




> code 220.12 and 14
> 
> max numb of outlets on a circuit 10-13..15a-20a....restriction DOES Not apply to lighting or small appliance....think ill have another beeerrkfjd :drink:


I think you better wait on that beer because you owe me a cocoa, hot with whip cream. I think the article you meant to state is 220.14(I). Read it again. Nowhere does it say the numbers you came up with. These numbers are for calculations not for branch circuit limits. 
Also if I use a fixed plugmold that is 5' long with outlets space every 6" (that's 10 outlets per strip) are you saying that I could not put 2 plugmolds on the same circuit. Code only requires 180va per 5' of plugmold and at most 180va for every 1 foot if appliances are likely to be used simultaneously. That is still twice the number you stated. I only bring this up to show the discrepancies. 

Now look at 220.14(J) for dwellings. We would use 3 watts/sq.ft. so with a 15 amp circuit I could have 1800 watts. That's 600 sq. feet. Some believe you are limited to that but in that 600 sq. feet I could put 100 receptacles if I wanted. No limit

Now good design will limit the number of receptacles on a circuit.


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## patriot1 (Feb 16, 2009)

this all started by how many recept on a gfci in a Hospital situation. Some dodo jumped into the residence mode and it took off from there.

480- read other posts before you post something.

Cista, we can talk this over with cocoa and whip cream in person..


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

patriot1 said:


> this all started by how many recept on a gfci in a Hospital situation. Some dodo jumped into the residence mode and it took off from there.
> 
> 480- read other posts before you post something.
> 
> Cista, we can talk this over with cocoa and whip cream in person..


you just don't know when you're wrong!


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## electricista (Jan 11, 2009)

patriot1 said:


> this all started by how many recept on a gfci in a Hospital situation. Some dodo jumped into the residence mode and it took off from there.


Here is the op's question.


RandY L said:


> Quick question, when installing a GFCI receptacle, is there a maximum number of duplex receptacles you can have after it (protected)? I'm thinking only making sure the load doesn't exceed branch circuit capabilities (20 amps in my case).





> 480- read other posts before you post something.


I'll let 480 speak to that one. 



> Cista, we can talk this over with cocoa and whip cream in person..


 This is something you can only dream of. :laughing:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

patriot1 said:


> this all started by how many recept on a gfci in a Hospital situation. Some dodo jumped into the residence mode and it took off from there.
> 
> 480- read other posts before you post something.
> 
> Cista, we can talk this over with cocoa and whip cream in person..


Maybe you should read the OP before you post:



Randy L said:


> Quick question, when installing a GFCI receptacle, is there a maximum number of duplex receptacles you can have after it (protected)? I'm thinking only making sure the load doesn't exceed branch circuit capabilities (20 amps in my case).


Where in there is the word '_hospital_'?


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## Chris Kennedy (Nov 19, 2007)

patriot1 said:


> Here *cista!*


Who the hell is Crista? Who the hell let Garth in here? (Go Fins)


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Chris Kennedy said:


> Who the hell is Crista? Who the hell let Garth in here? (Go Fins)


Cista, not c*r*ista.


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

Chris Kennedy said:


> Who the hell let Garth in here? (Go Fins)


More like, who the hell turned Garth on to this site to allow him to see how much better it is than MH's tight knit good ole' boy politically correct site? 
I'm not sure I should divulge that info, but his initials at MH's are DA. However I don't think he has an account over here, or at least if he does then I don't know what his name is on here. I'm glad to see that Marc is a mod here. I missed his posts at MH's. Things just weren't the same.

Fancy meeting you here Chris.


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## Chris Kennedy (Nov 19, 2007)

steelersman said:


> Fancy meeting you here Chris.


You can see I don't post much, just hang out. Dennis is an old fuddy duddy and can't handle the bluntness of some post here. But he is lurking...

Nice to see you have found your element brother. I find you posts most entertaining!


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

Chris Kennedy said:


> Nice to see you have found your element brother. I find you posts most entertaining!


Thanks. I'll try to keep them edgy for ya!


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## patriot1 (Feb 16, 2009)

Randy L said:


> Wow! Never knew this was such a heated topic! This question was for my *adolescent health treatment facility*. My boss was wanting to have all receptacles in the sleeping areas GFCI protected. I told him the cheapest way would be to install a GFCI receptacle at the beginning of the circuit, thus protecting the outlets after it. Some circuits, according to the prints, serve multiple rooms and hallway receptcales.
> 
> That's what drove my question. I knew the 80% load limiting, and the rooms only have clock radios so overloading is not an issue.
> 
> Installing GFCI breakers for the circuits would have cost over $7K.


 

Would you call this a hospital? Health treatment can cover many things, including hospitals, one of which I can do the electrical on....:boxing:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

patriot1 said:


> Would you call this a hospital? Health treatment can cover many things, including hospitals, one of which I can do the electrical on....:boxing:


I was unaware that the _*35th pos*__*t*_ in a thread was the start.


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

i really think Patriot1 is screwing with us all...hes been shown by several people hes wrong, yet he can't seeit..one way street


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

patriot1 said:


> wow i could save a whole lot of money, use #12-2 and wire the whole house on 1 circuit....except for the 220s..


see, i know you are being semi-serious here...guy, theres a minimum number of branch circuit, calculated by square footage!...what part of this don't uou understand?....are you that ignorant?


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## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

NolaTigaBait said:


> see, i know you are being semi-serious here...guy, theres a minimum number of branch circuit, calculated by square footage!...what part of this don't uou understand?....are you that ignorant?


 
Can we assign him my avatar after I find a new one:jester:


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

i just don't understand it...when you have 25 differnt guys saying the same thing...that avatar would be more appropriate for him- thats for sure


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## patriot1 (Feb 16, 2009)

Also if I use a fixed plugmold that is 5' long with outlets space every 6" (that's 10 outlets per strip) are you saying that I could not put 2 plugmolds on the same circuit. Code only requires 180va per 5' of plugmold and at most 180va for every 1 foot if appliances are likely to be used simultaneously. That is still twice the number you stated. I only bring this up to show the discrepancies. 

Now look at 220.14(J) for dwellings. We would use 3 watts/sq.ft. so with a 15 amp circuit I could have 1800 watts. That's 600 sq. feet. Some believe you are limited to that but in that 600 sq. feet I could put 100 receptacles if I wanted. No limit

Now good design will limit the number of receptacles on a circuit.[/quote]


I am looking at the 2008 NEC HardBound Handbook right now and here is what it says on page 115

220.12(I) except as covered in 220.14 (J) and (K), recept shall be counted at not less than..(page 116)...180 va for each single or for each multiple recpt on 1 yoke.

220.12 (H) 1- appliances are unlikely to be used simultaniously each 5' or fraction there of each seperate and continous length shall be considered as 1 outlet of not less than 180 va

Example..5' mold with 5 single recept. =rated at 180 va

220.12 (H) 2- appliances are likely to be used simultaniously each 1' or fraction there of each seperate and continous length shall be considered as 1 outlet of not less than 180 va

Example....5' mold with 5 single recepts.......5' x 180 va = 900va....6'' would be double

I never brought up plug mold, different all together.

10 outlets based at 180 va each= 15 amp...therefore 15 amp breaker
13 outlets based at 180 va each= 20 amp...therefore 20 amp breaker

look in the handbook (bluebook) and you will see these numbers


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## patriot1 (Feb 16, 2009)

not ignorant, just closed minded people that dont read all of the code. you just read parts, i cant explain it it any better, sorry. mean while, we are way off subject with this thread.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

patriot1 said:


> I am looking at the 2008 NEC HardBound Handbook right now and here is what it says on page 115


I don't think you'll find an AHJ that enforces the Handbook.




patriot1 said:


> I never brought up plug mold, different all together.


What's difference about a recep in plugmold as opposed to a recep in a box in the wall?

And again, where is a GFI in all this?


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## patriot1 (Feb 16, 2009)

NolaTigaBait said:


> i just don't understand it...when you have 25 differnt guys saying the same thing...that avatar would be more appropriate for him- thats for sure


 
electricsita is a girl..


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## patriot1 (Feb 16, 2009)

GFI were gone long time ago...


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## patriot1 (Feb 16, 2009)

plugmold is a fixed assembly


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## patriot1 (Feb 16, 2009)

480sparky said:


> I don't think you'll find an AHJ that enforces the Handbook.
> quote]
> 
> 
> mmm the handbook is the code book by the same people for the same people, its more detail and explains things better. If the Holy Bible was defined like the handbook, everyone would stop interpreting what it says, but then again we wouldnt have more than 1 religion.


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## electricista (Jan 11, 2009)

patriot1 said:


> electricsita is a girl..


Uhhh, a woman thank you.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

patriot1 said:


> mmm the handbook is the code book by the same people for the same people, its more detail and explains things better. If the Holy Bible was defined like the handbook, everyone would stop interpreting what it says, but then again we wouldnt have more than 1 religion.


The handbook is just one group of people's interpretation of the NEC. Period. There are other 'Handbooks' out there. American Electrician's Handbook is one.










I defy you to list one AHJ that adopted the Handbook for _enforcing_ the Code. Just one.

And is is NOT by the 'same people'.


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

patriot1 said:


> electricsita is a girl..


****** patriot1...i was refering to YOU:thumbsup:


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## patriot1 (Feb 16, 2009)

480sparky said:


> The handbook is just one group of people's interpretation of the NEC. Period. There are other 'Handbooks' out there. American Electrician's Handbook is one.
> And is is NOT by the 'same people'.


 
mine is by the NFPA, your is from ....Summers...Mcgraw hill...mine looks exactly like the regular code book except for the color, AE book doesnt look like the real code book at all. Does your book explain anything that I have been saying.


Originally Posted by *patriot1*  
_electricsita is a girl.._

_Sorry cista......woman:tongue_smilie:what about the whipcream?......._

_oops nola..i didnt catch it..watch the name calling though, dont want anyone in here to think of me any different..i never called anyone else names_


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

_



oops nola..i didnt catch it..watch the name calling though, dont want anyone in here to think of me any different..i never called anyone else names

Click to expand...

_i'm sorry i can't help it...you are pretty hard-headed...


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## patriot1 (Feb 16, 2009)

so how many regular receptacles do guys you install on a 15 amp circuit? 20 amp cicuit? in a new residence excluding the rr, kitch and laundry. and how do you come up with those answers...only bedrooms, Lr, halls dining, outside, garage etc.. no one has yet to explain how many they install.i have given my answers, i f you answer be HONEST!


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## electricista (Jan 11, 2009)

patriot1 said:


> so how many regular receptacles do guys you install on a 15 amp circuit? 20 amp cicuit? in a new residence excluding the rr, kitch and laundry. and how do you come up with those answers...only bedrooms, Lr, halls dining, outside, garage etc.. no one has yet to explain how many they install.i have given my answers, i f you answer be HONEST!


As I said earlier good design will limit the number of recep. I will get yelled at for this, but I often install one circuit for the master bedroom recep. Now if they want wall to wall outlets I would have no problem installing as many as necessary. One room can had 30 receptacles-- it does not matter but you keep insisting that it does. Now if I knew the ho wanted 30 recep. for many different pieces of equipment I would wire accordingly.


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

electricista said:


> As I said earlier good design will limit the number of recep. I will get yelled at for this, but I often install one circuit for the master bedroom recep. Now if they want wall to wall outlets I would have no problem installing as many as necessary. One room can had 30 receptacles-- it does not matter but you keep insisting that it does. Now if I knew the ho wanted 30 recep. for many different pieces of equipment I would wire accordingly.


i go over-board sometimes as well...i try to install 10 on a 15 and 13 on 20 ....i do this b/c i think its good practice....BUT THERE IS NO CODE THAT LIMITS THE # OF RECEPTS ON A CIRCUIT!!!!!!!!!!!....when you do a load calc, you get a MINIMUM # OF BRANCH CIRCUITS, BASED ON SQUARE FOOTAGE!


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

patriot1 said:


> so how many regular receptacles do guys you install on a 15 amp circuit? 20 amp cicuit? in a new residence excluding the rr, kitch and laundry. and how do you come up with those answers...only bedrooms, Lr, halls dining, outside, garage etc.. no one has yet to explain how many they install.i have given my answers, i f you answer be HONEST!


 
the kitchen has a MINIMUM of 2 circuits, laundry MINIMUM of 1 circuit...they tell you MINIMUM circuits, not recepts


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## patriot1 (Feb 16, 2009)

agree with nola

I started a new thread butt peter stopped it. I was getting out of this thread to a new one. must be nice to do what ever you want peter. just trying to get others opinion.

agree with cista, good design is best.


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

*Patriot1*

This should answer some questions.

I know it's SanAntonio.
http://www.nema.org/stds/fieldreps/codealerts/20090211tx.cfm

My point it aint too hard to find.

You really should do your own home work.:whistling2:

New York,Kalamazoo or Boston can not answer your questions.


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## patriot1 (Feb 16, 2009)

THIS IS what i have been trying to say;

9 One hundred eighty (180) volt-amperes per outlet shall be used to calculate the electrical load of one hundred twenty (120) volt receptacle circuits, that is, ten (10) outlets on a twenty ampere branch circuit and eight (8) outlets on a 15 ampere branch circuit. Branch circuits may supply a combination of receptacle and lighting outlets. When combined, receptacle and lighting outlets shall be rated at not less than one hundred eighty (180) volt-amperes each. Branch circuits serving only lighting outlets shall be allowed to serve any number of outlets provided that the total load does not exceed the rating of the branch circuit


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

patriot1 said:


> THIS IS what i have been trying to say;
> 
> 9 One hundred eighty (180) volt-amperes per outlet shall be used to calculate the electrical load of one hundred twenty (120) volt receptacle circuits, that is, ten (10) outlets on a twenty ampere branch circuit and eight (8) outlets on a 15 ampere branch circuit. Branch circuits may supply a combination of receptacle and lighting outlets. When combined, receptacle and lighting outlets shall be rated at not less than one hundred eighty (180) volt-amperes each. Branch circuits serving only lighting outlets shall be allowed to serve any number of outlets provided that the total load does not exceed the rating of the branch circuit


 
Are you sure this is for a dewelling?


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## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

patriot1 said:


> agree with nola
> 
> I started a new thread butt peter stopped it. I was getting out of this thread to a new one. must be nice to do what ever you want peter. just trying to get others opinion.
> 
> agree with cista, good design is best.


NOLA said it best:thumbup: Who the hell is peter


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

rlc3854 said:


> NOLA said it best:thumbup: Who the hell is peter


I believe when he says peter he means speedeypeetey


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

william1978 said:


> Are you sure this is for a dewelling?


We had that as the South Florida Building until recent history


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## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

steelersman said:


> I believe when he says peter he means speedeypeetey


Well alright then. Speedy and Marc can do want they want and IMHO do an excellent job. Nathan too when he pops in.:thumbsup:


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

rlc3854 said:


> Well alright then. Speedy and Marc can do want they want and IMHO do an excellent job. Nathan too when he pops in.:thumbsup:


Not sure why he closed the thread though. I don't really care, but.......


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

steelersman said:


> Not sure why he closed the thread though. I don't really care, but.......


 
I think he made it pretty clear:



NolaTigaBait said:


> you asked this question in another thread and it has been answered about 100 times....what don't you understand?





speedy petey said:


> I agree.
> Max Number Of Receptacles on GFI Protected Circuit?


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

jrannis said:


> We had that as the South Florida Building until recent history


 
OK, its not common around here. I learn something new every day.


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## 76nemo (Aug 13, 2008)

I'd like to add another two cents to this discussion. When someone posts something that isn't correct, instead of gang-like jumping them, how about we just let the correct answer come in and quit posting to the thread as we would with DIY'ers??? I've heard alot of talk on this forum complaining on how uptight Holt's site is. We can be civil all day long, but once we exchange words such as dumb*ss or ******, we should just retire the thread and leave it in linger. You can only argue a point so far when the other party won't admit he/she's wrong. As soon as the correct answer is given to any debate without any further question, just let it ride and let the OP or person in question to seek another answer out there, just somewhere else if they won't take OUR word for it in the first place.


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## patriot1 (Feb 16, 2009)

NolaTigaBait said:


> good job leland, add fuel to the fire...true local code will prevail, but as far as the nec....well, i think we all know the answer to that


 
OMFG 
why is it when i say something its crap and someone says the same thing and its gold.

Careful Leland, you will get back stabbed in here, senior member..:shuriken:


how about you close this thread peter p


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

NolaTigaBait said:


> i go over-board sometimes as well...i try to install 10 on a 15 and 13 on 20 ....i do this b/c i think its good practice....BUT THERE IS NO CODE THAT LIMITS THE # OF RECEPTS ON A CIRCUIT!!!!!!!!!!!....when you do a load calc, you get a MINIMUM # OF BRANCH CIRCUITS, BASED ON SQUARE FOOTAGE!


I do 11/15 and 14/20. Grounds up and plate screws horizontal.

Everything Ivory!:laughing::thumbup:


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

76nemo said:


> I'd like to add another two cents to this discussion. When someone posts something that isn't correct, instead of gang-like jumping them, how about we just let the correct answer come in and quit posting to the thread as we would with DIY'ers??? I've heard alot of talk on this forum complaining on how uptight Holt's site is. We can be civil all day long, but once we exchange words such as dumb*ss or ******, we should just retire the thread and leave it in linger. You can only argue a point so far when the other party won't admit he/she's wrong. As soon as the correct answer is given to any debate without any further question, just let it ride and let the OP or person in question to seek another answer out there, just somewhere else if they won't take OUR word for it in the first place.



I hear ya. Name calling gets no where fast!.
But when one will not surrender a code reference... who calls the game?

For the most part it was good dialogue. I think it is up to all of us to call the game.
When it is going no where and know references are given,just walk.

I think this site has been very good at self policing.
I commend the mods,they let it go and it settles it's self (most times).
No over protecting as on other sites.

Just my little commentary. thanx for your time.:laughing:


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## 76nemo (Aug 13, 2008)

leland said:


> I hear ya. Name calling gets no where fast!.
> But when one will not surrender a code reference... who calls the game?
> 
> For the most part it was good dialogue. I think it is up to all of us to call the game.
> ...


 
ALOT of this boils down to what is stated by the NEC and what boils down to what is accepted by the poster's AHJ. As much as we may not like it, local codes are sometimes highly debatable. I had one AHJ tell me a service drop with SEU cable was no longer UV resistant because it got painted and needed to be replaced before he would sign-off on it

All's we can do is quote the NEC, anything beyond that is out of our hands. We can say that their local needs schooling, but we shouldn't bash someone for having to abide by what their local AHJ has to say.

I know this forum is very lenient, but with that said, we should NEVER resort to any kind of bashing, or name calling. If someone is wrong, than they're wrong. Give them the correct answer and how it's quoted in the NEC, and we can leave it at that :thumbsup:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

patriot1 said:


> OMFG
> why is it when i say something its crap and someone says the same thing and its gold.
> 
> Careful Leland, you will get back stabbed in here, senior member..:shuriken:
> ...


AHHHHHHH Because you are WRONG? Regarding this issue in residences where the local AHJ has not superseded the NEC. You are not right, you are wrong, missed the boat, have a total misunderstanding, can't grasp the issue, blew it. I THINK


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

patriot1 said:


> THIS IS what i have been trying to say;
> 
> 9 One hundred eighty (180) volt-amperes per outlet shall be used to calculate the electrical load of one hundred twenty (120) volt receptacle circuits, that is, ten (10) outlets on a twenty ampere branch circuit and eight (8) outlets on a 15 ampere branch circuit. Branch circuits may supply a combination of receptacle and lighting outlets. When combined, receptacle and lighting outlets shall be rated at not less than one hundred eighty (180) volt-amperes each. Branch circuits serving only lighting outlets shall be allowed to serve any number of outlets provided that the total load does not exceed the rating of the branch circuit


That is a local amendment, not an NEC requirement.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

patriot1 said:


> I started a new thread butt peter stopped it. I was getting out of this thread to a new one. must be nice to do what ever you want peter. just trying to get others opinion.


Yeah, it can be very nice, but sometimes it can be a pain in the ass as well, like now. Because now we have THREE threads (one closed) on your very simple question. THAT is why I closed the other one, we do NOT need more than one thread on the exact same subject by the same person.

**Edit - This thread will stay open. The relevant posts are merged and the other threads closed.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

brian john said:


> AHHHHHHH Because you are WRONG? Regarding this issue in residences where the local AHJ has not superseded the NEC. You are not right, you are wrong, missed the boat, have a total misunderstanding, can't grasp the issue, blew it. I THINK


 
:laughing: :laughing:


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

patriot1 said:


> OMFG
> why is it when i say something its crap and someone says the same thing and its gold.
> 
> Careful Leland, you will get back stabbed in here, senior member..:shuriken:
> ...


i never said that you were wrong...i practice this method, but in regards to the NEC ,you are... there is no code and several people here have stated the same thing....what Leland posted was a local amendment which reqired what you have been saying the whole time....


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

JohnJ0906 said:


> That is a local amendment, not an NEC requirement.


for some reason patriot1 can't decipher between the two


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

this is getting old..


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

NolaTigaBait said:


> this is getting old..


 
There are some people that have completed installs a certain way assuming they were code. I think this is the case. Should P admit we are right and he is wrong, means he admits he has possibly lied to customers, wasted money and he is not as up to the NEC as he once thought.

I should add there is nothing wrong with his way of doing installs and in some cases it may be better. But I bet his way has no less overloads than what most of us have done for years.


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## piette (Feb 7, 2008)

NolaTigaBait said:


> this is getting old..


Getting????????????

This was old by the 4th page. How many professional electricians does it take to say the exact same thing, before the one who thinks he knows better realizes he doesn't?

Jeff


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## redbeard43 (Mar 20, 2009)

As I was looking through this web forum, I came accross this GFCI question. I am new here and just wanted to check things out. The simple answer to his question would have been it doesnt matter if it is an existing circuit. Now if this was a new circuit, follow a common paractice used by all here whether it is 10 or 12 on a breaker either 15 or 20 amps and make sure the circuit is not now or going to be overloaded in the future. I seen many answers like 3,6,7,8,10,100, I did not see any of these people getting bashed for what they may believe in. P stood up for himself for what he believed in and showed a few things whether right or wrong.

Everyone has their own common practice so why should someone comment on others ideas. Down grading a person is not the way calling names is just a childish manner as I assumed there were adults here.

I dont think everyone was on the same page all though most were. P may have considered a continous load rather than a non continous load. I believe what most people were saying is you can put as many as you want as long as the circuit was not overloaded whether it be 1 or 100 recept downstream and yes the code does not specify on anything of the sort.

As far as wasting money and he lied to customers, in his defense, he did the best for the customer and yes Brian, _(I should add there is nothing wrong with his way of doing installs and in some cases it may be better. But I bet his way has no less overloads than what most of us have done for years.)_ I will agree to that. I do see that you are a senior member with a quite a few post so I feel that you can be a honest man and you didnt degrade P too much. What most of you have done for years may also be best for the customer but why argue who is right or wrong.

The only way to help someone when they are almost right, is to show them the actual facts and put numbers to it like a school instructor would. For what I have seen in this thread, everyone is right, it was just that all were not seeing what each other was talking about.

This is what best describes this thread:



76nemo said:


> I'd like to add another two cents to this discussion. When someone posts something that isn't correct, instead of gang-like jumping them, how about we just let the correct answer come in and quit posting to the thread as we would with DIY'ers??? I've heard alot of talk on this forum complaining on how uptight Holt's site is. We can be civil all day long, but once we exchange words such as dumb*ss or ******, we should just retire the thread and leave it in linger. You can only argue a point so far when the other party won't admit he/she's wrong. As soon as the correct answer is given to any debate without any further question, just let it ride and let the OP or person in question to seek another answer out there, just somewhere else if they won't take OUR word for it in the first place.


I would agree to this one.

Thanks for your time
Red.


If you see a drinking glass filled at half way, is the glass half empty or half full? I am the half full kind of man.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

> Now if this was a new circuit, follow a common practice used by all here whether it is 10 or 12 on a breaker either 15 or 20 amps and make sure the circuit is not now or going to be overloaded in the future. I seen many answers like 3, 6, 7,8,10,100, I did not see any of these people getting bashed for what they may believe in. P stood up for him for what he believed in and showed a few things whether right or wrong.


You can’t control what will happen now or in the future with receptacles. Install a dedicated and put the rest house on one circuit and the lady of the house will overload the dedicated. 




> as I assumed there were adults here.


Hang around a while we will bust that myth.




> I don’t think everyone was on the same page all though most were. P may have considered a continuous load rather than a non continuous load. I believe what most people were saying is you can put as many as you want as long as the circuit was not overloaded whether it be 1 or 100 receipt downstream and yes the code does not specify on anything of the sort.


Read MY POST I stated RESISDENCE, RESIDENTIAL. Hard to misconstrue that




> As far as wasting money and he lied to customers, in his defense, he did the best for the customer and yes Brian


I never said there was anything wrong with it, I do feel it could be argued he is mis-leading his customers through a TOTAL misunderstanding of the NEC and ended up unintentionally overcharging. A good lawyer could argue he RIPPED his customers off.

A house piped in rigid with all receptcles being dedicated might be better than NM wired by standard practices. BUT is it cost effective are you doing your customers any favors cost VS practical?




> I will agree to that. I do see that you are a senior member with a quite a few post so I feel that you can be an honest man and you didn’t degrade P too much.


It was not my intent in his case to degrade (do not read the Power Saver post), but to try to inform. I would have to think that if he is misconstruing this SIMPLE NEC code what is he doing to the rest of a sometimes confusing book?





> The only way to help someone when they are almost right is to show them the actual facts and put numbers to it like a school instructor would. For what I have seen in this thread, everyone is right, it was just that all were not seeing what each other was talking about.


In practice all were right, per NEC someone is missing the boat.


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

BOAT ? Missed the Boat ? There was a boat ?
Dam, wish I knew there was a boat!
I was curious how many outlets were being put on a boat no days. Are they ground up or ground down? :whistling2:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

manchestersparky said:


> BOAT ? Missed the Boat ? There was a boat ?
> Dam, wish I knew there was a boat!
> I was curious how many outlets were being put on a boat no days. Are they ground up or ground down? :whistling2:


Hey I have worked on ships, large commercial cable layers, they have power quality issues.


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## pbeasley (Feb 15, 2009)

manchestersparky said:


> BOAT ? Missed the Boat ? There was a boat ?
> Dam, wish I knew there was a boat!
> I was curious how many outlets were being put on a boat no days. Are they ground up or ground down? :whistling2:


Contrary to ground up best practices on terra firma, receptacles on boats should be installed ground down, that way when the bilge pump stops working the ground will be the first prong to touch the water :whistling2:

....running for cover...


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

pbeasley said:


> Contrary to ground up best practices on terra firma, receptacles on boats should be installed ground down, that way when the bilge pump stops working the ground will be the first prong to touch the water :whistling2:
> 
> ....running for cover...


If the bilge pump quits, I could care less whether the ground is up or down. At that point, all I care about is a vest and the lifeboat.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

480sparky said:


> If the bilge pump quits, I could care less whether the ground is up or down. At that point, all I care about is a vest and the lifeboat.


Heck I want a helicopter, durn if I want to get my feet wet.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

brian john said:


> Heck I want a helicopter, durn if I want to get my feet wet.


Screw the chopper. Beam me up, Scotty!


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## billsnuff (Dec 29, 2007)

*sorry*

if you're gonna toss 'em up, I'm gonna swat 'em.........



> I was curious how many outlets were being put on a boat no days.


I don't have a code ref. but I believe that 2 15s and 3 20s is a FULL BOAT. I'm all in.....:laughing:

this have been a very interesting read, but I'm going with 220.14(J) and continue my load calcs with 220.12. Hell, I even run 14NM in my own residence. Too far north for that Texas AHJ to get me....... :thumbup:

Thanks all,


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## calimurray (Apr 29, 2007)

in most kitchens I do two to three loaded receptacles , also I usually have about five home runs to my kitchens so it creates a good division of circuits.

in all other applications I would do up to three depending on wattage in certain situations.


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

I'm surprised at how many people on this thread seem to go for the overkill route.


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## zen (Jun 15, 2009)

if i remeber correct some years back we went to only 10 plugs per circut because my boss was a commercial master electrician then came to resedential said, i think,,,,,for his load calcullation he had to give the opening a value and he said 10 outlets percircut was good,, so far its worked out


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