# Attic Safety



## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

A while back I had a 4" recessed can that would not turn on. It was connected to a Lutron Maestro dimmer switch. Being that it was a 4" halo can I could not access the connections from below as you can on a 6" can so I crawled into the attic to make my repair. I was kind of in a hurry and not thinking of safety as it was hot and I was upset that I had to go in the attic. The soffit I crawled into was metal stud and I got shocked when I cut out the wago connector to replace it with a wire nut. Dummy me I forgot to pull the Fass switch out on the dimmer and companion dimmer. Be careful and don't assume you are safe from being shocked just because the lights look like they are off.


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## zac (May 11, 2009)

Easy said:


> A while back I had a 4" recessed can that would not turn on. It was connected to a Lutron Maestro dimmer switch. Being that it was a 4" halo can I could not access the connections from below as you can on a 6" can so I crawled into the attic to make my repair. I was kind of in a hurry and not thinking of safety as it was hot and I was upset that I had to go in the attic. The soffit I crawled into was metal stud and I got shocked when I cut out the wago connector to replace it with a wire nut. Dummy me I forgot to pull the Fass switch out on the dimmer and companion dimmer. Be careful and don't assume you are safe from being shocked just because the lights look like they are off.


Yeah, any dimmer I see the meter comes out. I got lit up wiring up a chandelier once. 
I was holding the chandelier with one hand and twisting the wires with the other. 

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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

Good thing you didn't drop the chandelier. Don't get me wrong I love the performance and style of the Maestro switch but it can be a problem child in this Scenario. If you were to install one in a bell box with a weatherproof cover and you pull out the FASS switch and then let the cover close it will also push the switch back in. Probably always best practice to open the CB on any circuit you work on. Unfortunately it's not always an option when circuits are not identified. I'm sure someone will chime up and say .. Always kill power before you work on any system. I agree but we all take short cuts at times.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I got shocked once on a ceiling fan that I turned off with the remote control because it was hardwired to constant power so there was no switch. I guess the remote circuitry lets some current bleed thru.

This is why I treat everything like it is hot. I avoid touching the hot conductor, I only touch it when not touching anything else, and I put the levernut on it first. That's yet another nice thing about levernuts, you cap off the hot with one first thing, then the hot is always safe and you never have to touch it again. Just put the additional conductors into the levernut when ready.


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

Hack .. I can see how levernuts can be a big advantage in that scenario. Attics are just a bad place to be in for any circumstance. I think at the time I got across the neutral and just that low current was enough to shock me. Sweet was probably factors as well. Another good way to get shocked is when you run into a broken raceway and one end is energized because there was no EGC only the raceway and the tail end is hot and the lead end is grounded.


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

People do dumb things. Especially lazy journeymen. The worst shock I ever felt was on a 277 vt lighting circuit. I pushed open a tile on a t-bar ceiling and was touching the t-bar and some dumb ass left a bare wire hanging out.


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## Mobius87 (May 20, 2019)

Attics can be dangerous by themselves, when they get hot. I went in one once early in the morning when it was cool. The temperature slowly rose over the next couple of hours, slowly enough that I didn't 'feel' how hot it had gotten.

Once I stopped sweating, it dawned on me that I was in trouble and bailed. I figure another 10 minutes and I wouldn't have made it out.

Another one I was climbing through was like a mine field. Multiple live, open splices hidden in the blown in insulation. Got zapped multiple times trying to make my way back to the hatch.

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## Service Call (Jul 9, 2011)

One attic I was in had the points of nails sticking up into the space. There was no where to kneel without getting stuck. I charged triple time for that job.


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

HackWork said:


> I got shocked once on a ceiling fan that I turned off with the remote control because it was hardwired to constant power so there was no switch. I guess the remote circuitry lets some current bleed thru.
> 
> This is why I treat everything like it is hot. I avoid touching the hot conductor, I only touch it when not touching anything else, and I put the levernut on it first. That's yet another nice thing about levernuts, you cap off the hot with one first thing, then the hot is always safe and you never have to touch it again. Just put the additional conductors into the levernut when ready.


Quick question, do you have to strip the wire before you put it in the Wago or does it bite to the wire on it’s own?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

460 Delta said:


> Quick question, do you have to strip the wire before you put it in the Wago or does it bite to the wire on it’s own?


You definitely have to strip it. I doubt it would bite thru modern insulation, and it's definitely not rated to do that. Personally, I don't like insulation piercing connectors.


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

HackWork said:


> You definitely have to strip it. I doubt it would bite thru modern insulation, and it's definitely not rated to do that. Personally, I don't like insulation piercing connectors.


Yeah wire biters are a little sketchy, but if you're doing hot work in an attic, well they would have a place.


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## Mobius87 (May 20, 2019)

460 Delta said:


> Yeah wire biters are a little sketchy, but if you're doing hot work in an attic, well they would have a place.


I disagree. That's the last place you would want to put a sketchy connection.

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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

I thought this was going to be about attic heat. But electrically, if you don't turn the circuit off, you get what you get.


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

Easy said:


> Good thing you didn't drop the chandelier. Don't get me wrong I love the performance and style of the Maestro switch but it can be a problem child in this Scenario. If you were to install one in a bell box with a weatherproof cover and you pull out the FASS switch and then let the cover close it will also push the switch back in. Probably always best practice to open the CB on any circuit you work on. Unfortunately it's not always an option when circuits are not identified. I'm sure someone will chime up and say .. Always kill power before you work on any system. I agree but we all take short cuts at times.


I don't usually kill the power with lighting either. Just recently I was adding a slim LED live. When I was connecting the live, the side of my hand touched the metal driver can. Not a big shock, but I felt it ... and worst of all, someone saw it :vs_mad: Makes you look like you don't have a clue.

I didn't know about that Fass switch ? Is that new ???
I don't think I've seen it on the lutrons or levitons that I've used.


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## Kevin (Feb 14, 2017)

emtnut said:


> I don't usually kill the power with lighting either. Just recently I was adding a slim LED live. When I was connecting the live, the side of my hand touched the metal driver can. Not a big shock, but I felt it ... and worst of all, someone saw it :vs_mad: Makes you look like you don't have a clue.
> 
> I didn't know about that Fass switch ? Is that new ???
> I don't think I've seen it on the lutrons or levitons that I've used.


I don't know when they introduced the FASS (front accessible service switch).

I do know that all lutron Caseta dimmers and switches have them.

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## Mobius87 (May 20, 2019)

It is easy to miss, unless you read the instructions thoroughly. If you're like me, the instructions never leave the box.

But it's not new, at least not in the past 5+ years.

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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

HackWork said:


> You definitely have to strip it. I doubt it would bite thru modern insulation, and it's definitely not rated to do that. Personally, I don't like insulation piercing connectors.


Maybe it might bight thru some wire on grandmas trailer. lol. Get the 4 conductor stripper so you can work 4 lines at once.


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

Honestly I imagine the wagos have there place.


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

460 Delta said:


> Quick question, do you have to strip the wire before you put it in the Wago or does it bite to the wire on it’s own?


I just don't think they are as reliable as a wire nut but I do see the time savings element. The ones that Hack showed are the better ones than the push ins. Both types have to be stripped. It's the wave of the future man.


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

HackWork said:


> I got shocked once on a ceiling fan that I turned off with the remote control because it was hardwired to constant power so there was no switch. I guess the remote circuitry lets some current bleed thru.
> 
> This is why I treat everything like it is hot. I avoid touching the hot conductor, I only touch it when not touching anything else, and I put the levernut on it first. That's yet another nice thing about levernuts, you cap off the hot with one first thing, then the hot is always safe and you never have to touch it again. Just put the additional conductors into the levernut when ready.


lever nuts are same as wire nuts .. yes / no ?


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Easy said:


> lever nuts are same as wire nuts .. yes / no ?


No, lever nuts shaped similar to the push-in type wagos or ideal in-sures but they have a lever to lock in each wire.


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

Thanks for sharing Splatz. I have not seen the 221 series Lever Nuts before. They are a pressure type connection so I guess they are much better than the stab in type. 
This is what the manufacture said. "HTCELLE lever-nut connector housing is made of the best high quality PC insulating material. With the advantages of *long life, corrosion resistance, high-temperature resistance* and aging resistance, HTCELLE wire connector can effectively prevent electrical leakage. So the lever nuts are *safer than traditional wire nuts."*


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

wow they even sell a tool to open them with .. for only $172 .. not sure if I would rush out and buy one.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Easy said:


> wow they even sell a tool to open them with .. for only $172 .. not sure if I would rush out and buy one.


LOL that's how they do in Europe!


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Easy said:


> wow they even sell a tool to open them with .. for only $172 .. not sure if I would rush out and buy one.


I remember Shunk posted that a while back.

That is good if you are fabricating things and making up hundreds of connections per day.

IMO, I think that opening them too early could lead to a weaker spring. I try not to open mine until immediately before using it. I don't even like letting it sit there opened for 10 minutes, but that might just be my OCD :biggrin:


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

It’s all about safety. I’d hate to break a finger nail opening a lever nut.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Easy said:


> It’s all about safety. I’d hate to break a finger nail opening a lever nut.


You're more likely to nip your fingertip, or your lip. Those levers hurt pretty badly if they close on you.


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

HackWork said:


> You're more likely to nip your fingertip, or your lip. Those levers hurt pretty badly if they close on you.


Yeah use your teeth to open them and pinch your lip. :smile:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Easy said:


> Yeah use your teeth to open them and pinch your lip. :smile:


I’ve never use my teeth to open them, but I do keep them in my mouth sometimes while dealing with the wires.


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