# Unions



## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

Speaking for my area

Some open shops match union scale and benefits and offer an excellent work place. 

Problem is when the owner retires, dies or closes the door you are looking for another job making the same pay, retirement and benefits.

My friend retired 3 years ago and with the different retirements he gets plus Social Security he tells me he is bringing home 80,000.00 a year.

Nice retirement

BUT you should talk to union members and open shop workers to see what the work for union is like in your area. 

Full time work, all refinery or factory.........


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## AK_sparky (Aug 13, 2013)

Side note: Thanks BE for moving this discussion over here; I was going to suggest that, but you beat me to it!

Also: Sounds decent, you hiring?


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## JasonCo (Mar 23, 2015)

Bad Electrician said:


> Every local is different. My employees are all long term, I have some guy that have been with me 29 years. For general construction Apprentices typically have work during their apprenticeship, Electricians do get laid off. In my area we generally have continuous work year around.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks a bunch for spending the time to answer all those questions. Very much appreciated my man! I never really considered moving companies but you make it sound like it is a no brainer. I live in Houston Texas, and there is A LOT of construction and new buildings going up, there always has and most likely always will be. So if I decide to go the union route, do I negotiate my pay or is there usually some sort of standard pay for new apprentice employees. How does that typically work?


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

There is a fixed scale everyone makes the same apprentices make a percentage of journey men.

Based on your experience the union may have you start all over but the money most likely will be more than you make now.


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## danhasenauer (Jun 10, 2009)

The amount paid into your retirement by your employer will be way more than you could ever put aside on your own. I have 2 pensions and an annuity fund. The health care plans are second to none. Little to none out of your own pocket. Wish I had gotten in the IBEW from Day-1, but my life didn't follow that path.


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## JasonCo (Mar 23, 2015)

You know what, I have one more question. If I quit my schooling that I've been in for 2 years now and join a Union. Lets say they make me start over the schooling under their own program, and in 4 years I get my Journeyman card, do I still have to finish out the 2 years at the Union school? Also, I have 2 years of school right now, if I talk to the Union could those credits sort of transfer over you think where they might put me in year 3 instead? So whenever I get my 4 years experience, that's when I will be graduating the Union school and also be getting my J-card at the same time.


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## kg7879 (Feb 3, 2014)

I do not know your situation whether you are young or old or whether you have a family but the union is worth looking into.

Every local is different but I do not pay any health care premiums, I have a contractor paid 401k, a couple of pensions, a health benefit debit card that gets 50 cents and hour put into. 

Plus our scale is the highest in my area even after union dues. 

I know there will be guys who say that you will be laid off a lot but I haven't seen that in the last 4 four years (in my area)for apprentices and if you were a JW then you did not work only because you did not want to.


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## JasonCo (Mar 23, 2015)

kg7879 said:


> I do not know your situation whether you are young or old or whether you have a family but the union is worth looking into.
> 
> Every local is different but I do not pay any health care premiums, I have a contractor paid 401k, a couple of pensions, a health benefit debit card that gets 50 cents and hour put into.
> 
> ...


Okay awesome, thanks for the information. By the way, I am 25 years old with no kids or family. Just a dog to take care of :thumbup:

I'm interested in finding out what pay might be in my area, Houston Texas. Tried surfing the internet but can't find any answers for union pay in Houston Texas. Not sure if you know how to find this information out. If anything I guess I can just call up the union and find out.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

JasonCo said:


> Okay awesome, thanks for the information. By the way, I am 25 years old with no kids or family. Just a dog to take care of :thumbup:
> 
> I'm interested in finding out what pay might be in my area, Houston Texas. Tried surfing the internet but can't find any answers for union pay in Houston Texas. Not sure if you know how to find this information out. If anything I guess I can just call up the union and find out.



http://www.ibew.org/Tools/Construction-Jobs-Board

You can see the scale if they have work.


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## 3D Electric (Mar 24, 2013)

I am not in the union. I will tell you this though. Do whatever is best for you and your situation. Get advice from both sides and make an informed decision. Good luck! No matter what you do you've already made the right decision becoming an electrician! 👍


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

One question that has not come up. Do you see yourself opening your own shop? If yes, IMO that answer makes the decision a little more intriguing. 

If no, then IMO the union is the way to go if you can get in. People that work hard and make A's in school are desirable to both union and non-union employers (and in general the union employees make better money).

Now, if you want to open your own shop, you can get a much more easier in a small non-union shop that does a bunch of different work. The union tends to be bigger projects and you can be stuck doing the same thing over and over.

Good luck to you, but my gut says you don't need it.


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## dawgs (Dec 1, 2007)

My shop is union just under 20 employees so we are small and we do a variety of work. There are many other union shops like mine were I'm at also.


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

dawgs said:


> My shop is union just under 20 employees so we are small and we do a variety of work. There are many other union shops like mine were I'm at also.


 
We have been small with a slow growth policy just hit 25 employees.


I worked open shop for 8 years then had a chance to join the union and hopped on. When I started my own shop I felt if union was good for me I should offer the same to any employees I might have. 

Over the years there have been some minor issues but nothing that could not have occurred had I been an open shop.


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

I don't know about Houston, but the undersung benefits of being union is that you don't have to shell out for power tools, you are not expected to wear heavy joint busting tool and part bags, you are not expected to provide your own PPE.

It was weird to put all my carefully selected power tools on the shelf, but I know I'm better off.

Also, if you do join, I would encourage you to try to get involved at your local in whatever way you can. There are some benefits you will receive automatically, but without an educated, involved membership we'll never get the most out of our unions. Buck the naysayers, there can be many in a conservative right to work state like Texas.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

@JsaonCo, you are getting some very valuable input here and you're smart to look into early in your career. I will give you one bit of advice, educate yourself about personal finances enough that you really understand the dollar value of benefits (pension contributions, and health care, etc.) Until you really understand that you don't really understand how much a job REALLY pays. This is true in ANY line of work. 

It may not be the most exciting thing but it's so important you won't even believe it.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

dawgs said:


> My shop is union just under 20 employees so we are small and we do a variety of work. There are many other union shops like mine were I'm at also.


You up near DC where the money just flows out of the federal coffers? 

I bet the situation down in Texas is a bit different than up there. You know, they have the conservatives in charge and keep workers wages down.

I grew up in Va Beach, and we never really felt the recessions that the rest of the country had to deal with (military bases all over the place). Gotta love the government spending to help keep recessions at bay in certain areas.


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## danhasenauer (Jun 10, 2009)

You need to look into your prospective Local's policy concerning non-Union Apprenticeship transfers. Here in NY, an Apprentice in a NYSDOL approved program (ABC) usually receives credit for non-Union class work and OTJ hours, though sometimes not 100% full credit. Worst case is usually a 1 year setback in school.


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## Jarp Habib (May 18, 2014)

Posting to remind myself to get back to you JasonCo. I'm in Houston and just turned out on the union side. 

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk


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## dawgs (Dec 1, 2007)

hardworkingstiff said:


> You up near DC where the money just flows out of the federal coffers? I bet the situation down in Texas is a bit different than up there. You know, they have the conservatives in charge and keep workers wages down. I grew up in Va Beach, and we never really felt the recessions that the rest of the country had to deal with (military bases all over the place). Gotta love the government spending to help keep recessions at bay in certain areas.


I'm south of DC. Hampton Roads and RichmOnd is most of our work. I do zero government work.


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## icdubois (Nov 16, 2013)

I'm kinda in the same boat as you. Would be starting my third year if I was working but things happen and I'm currently a stay at home dad. I'm currently in the process is of getting in to the local after starting in an open shop. I did two years worth of school at my old shop. The local had me take a placement test to see where I would be in their school. As predicted I would be starting third year. Which is really nice since I was worried about having to start over, like you. They pay here for in town 3rd year is ~17.75. The only downside that I'm coming across at the moment is there's "no" work for a third year. The apprenticeship director even told me that they are having a hard time keeping first years busy. So take that how ever you want. I'm still looking forward to joint due to the pay, retirement and other benefits that come along with the union.


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

icdubois said:


> . So take that how ever you want. I'm still looking forward to joint due to the pay, retirement and other benefits that come along with the union.


Only if you have work

Did you have full employment working open shop? was the pay close to union scale?

The union is a wise choice if they have work.


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## icdubois (Nov 16, 2013)

Bad Electrician said:


> Only if you have work
> 
> Did you have full employment working open shop? was the pay close to union scale?
> 
> The union is a wise choice if they have work.


Yes and no, my first company full time for a year a half then things got slow and it was a family business. So it was more important to keep the owners daughter on payroll than a productive employee. My second company was full time for one "long term" project, that only lasted about 6 months. Then my last company I was told it would be full time permanent but I was laid off after the install season. I have a feeling that was the plan all along. 


No the pay wasn't even close to the union scale. Almost $3 less per hour.


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## gnuuser (Jan 13, 2013)

you know there is an awful lot of union and non union bickering going on throughout the forums!
yes there are some union locals out there that are pure $#!T 
but not all of them are crap!
how much of the crap is heresay? 
do you have valid and undeniable proof?, proof that can be proven in court?

rather than spout anti union rhetoric listen and research it.
quite often what you hear from other antis is negative and designed to instill hostility (believe me ive had to deal with a lot of these weasels over the past 30 years)

understand this IF your employer is a fair employer and relations between management and hourly employees is amicable _then there is no need to have a union._
but in industry rarely do you ever find a fair employer, they are out to get the last drop of sweat and blood they can wring from you!
a union contract holds both the management and union employee responsible for their actions regardless of what anyone else thinks.
complaints and grievances are handled and usually settled in company and rarely ever proceed to a court action.

apprenticeships handled through a union must comply with wage standards as set by the state apprenticeship coordinator and cannot be deviated from.

as non union they may or may not be covered by that regulation and may be dictated by the employers whims

while some shops are non union that is their choice i will not try to recruit them into unions 
if you ask a question about how a union handles things i will try to answer as best i can. but don't be a jerk just because i am union:no:

so please keep it civil


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## 3D Electric (Mar 24, 2013)

gnuuser said:


> so please keep it civil


But I hate being civil! Lol. Like I said get information on both and make an informed decision that is best for you. Union or open shop doesn't matter. All that matters is how you are able to feed your family. 👍


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

gnuuser said:


> so please keep it civil


Sadly, I find most union threads here assume little more than the tired old _'how much can i make' _ questions from noobs Gnuuser.

Rarely is asked _'can i become a better electrician'_ 

~CS~


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

dawgs said:


> I do zero government work.


:laughing: I bet if you really dug into it, you would find that government spending from Tidewater up to DC (influencing Richmond) is what keeps those economies doing better than many other locations plus it makes recessions much easier to handle. I know, I lived there for decades, and I did not do any government work, but I did understand that the government spending though the velocity of money created the jobs that I was doing.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

hardworkingstiff said:


> I bet if you really dug into it, you would find that government spending from Tidewater up to DC (influencing Richmond) is what keeps those economies doing better than many other locations plus it makes recessions much easier to handle.


I don't want to use the phrase "trickle down" but the government is the main economic driver in the area. If you do commercial, that market is flush with government contractors, which creates demand, which builds up the market for commercial properties. If you do residential, that market is infused with money from government employees and government contractor employees. I don't think there's been a more recession proof area because no matter what happens to imports, exports, price of oil, etc., the government has continued to grow, the sector that services the government has continued to grow.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

splatz said:


> I don't want to use the phrase "trickle down" but the government is the main economic driver in the area. If you do commercial, that market is flush with government contractors, which creates demand, which builds up the market for commercial properties. If you do residential, that market is infused with money from government employees and government contractor employees. I don't think there's been a more recession proof area because no matter what happens to imports, exports, price of oil, etc., the government has continued to grow, the sector that services the government has continued to grow.


My point better explained.


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## JasonCo (Mar 23, 2015)

Bad Electrician said:


> Only if you have work
> 
> Did you have full employment working open shop? was the pay close to union scale?
> 
> The union is a wise choice if they have work.


I'm getting 40 hours a week at the shop I work at now, and they are paying me on average of what a 2 year apprentice should be making according to my school. My school has an average pay scale for what they think apprentices should be making, and my company honors this. So I get raises like every 6 months. Right now I'm at $16.90, been in the trade for about 1.75 years now. So in my personal opinion, pay is decent. Specially for people in Texas, it is one of the lowest paying states in the Nation... If I went to Union, I'd maybe get +2$ or so? 

My question is... Do you think it is worth it. Should I just finish at the school I am at now, graduate with honors and then get my J-card. THEN join a Union as a Journeyman?



Jarp Habib said:


> Posting to remind myself to get back to you JasonCo. I'm in Houston and just turned out on the union side.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk


Hey, let me know how it is going! Could I ask how much pay you expect I should be making if I join a union? I've been in the trade for 2 years, and very determined and hard working guy. I have no idea how much pay is in the Houston area, so very curious!! Thanks for your reply, hope everything is going well


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## danhasenauer (Jun 10, 2009)

splatz said:


> I don't think there's been a more recession proof Trade because no matter what happens to imports, exports, price of oil, etc., the Planet still runs on Electricity.


Our Trade has been very good to me. I have always been able to feed my Family. I have been Union for about 1/3 of my total time in the biz. and having lived on both sides of the fence, I can honestly say the IBEW is the place to be. :thumbsup:


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

JasonCo said:


> I'm getting 40 hours a week at the shop I work at now, and they are paying me on average of what a 2 year apprentice should be making according to my school. My school has an average pay scale for what they think apprentices should be making, and my company honors this. So I get raises like every 6 months. Right now I'm at $16.90, been in the trade for about 1.75 years now. So in my personal opinion, pay is decent. Specially for people in Texas, it is one of the lowest paying states in the Nation... If I went to Union, I'd maybe get +2$ or so?
> 
> My question is... Do you think it is worth it. Should I just finish at the school I am at now, graduate with honors and then get my J-card. THEN join a Union as a Journeyman?
> 
> ...


If you're not in a non union apprenticeship with formal class time I would recommend getting into one or just signing up with the ibew now before a pay drop sounds unbearable. The understanding of theory is what makes good journeymen and eventually good foreman.


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## Jarp Habib (May 18, 2014)

JasonCo said:


> I'm getting 40 hours a week at the shop I work at now, and they are paying me on average of what a 2 year apprentice should be making according to my school. My school has an average pay scale for what they think apprentices should be making, and my company honors this. So I get raises like every 6 months. Right now I'm at $16.90, been in the trade for about 1.75 years now. So in my personal opinion, pay is decent. Specially for people in Texas, it is one of the lowest paying states in the Nation... If I went to Union, I'd maybe get +2$ or so?
> 
> My question is... Do you think it is worth it. Should I just finish at the school I am at now, graduate with honors and then get my J-card. THEN join a Union as a Journeyman?
> 
> ...


Local scale is about $30.25, a second year apprentice makes 60% or $18.15. Our local is very heavily in with oil industry work which is, of course, in a slump right now but we do have a fair amount of work everywhere else. Our local got kicked out of the facilities in the ship channel back in the late 1970s during the great nationwide labor pushback but this year the ship channel came back to us because open shops operating there have had an abysmal safety record. Safety records have actually become our #1 selling point in Houston, to the point that the last two big jobs I've been on have very pointedly had a focus on doing it safe and deliberately and as slow as necessary to do the job in a quality manner without rushing. And that's coming from the GC/customer! So it takes a bit of adjustment. 

We have a system here called an IJ program "Intermediate Journeymen" where people who have some experience in the trade outside the union can test in on a scale of 1-8 and be compensated appropriately. I do not know how the 1-8 IJ scale corresponds with the 50%-90% apprentice pay scale. IJs have courses that they can schedule and take at the school but it is not mandatory as with Apps. It is also significantly less in depth, we had to go once a week for 5 years. Personally, I feel the IJ program turns out weaker electricians except for the ones who already have 8-10 years experience and test in as a 7 or 8. But that's just me. 

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

Jarp Habib said:


> Local scale is about $30.25, a second year apprentice makes 60% or $18.15. Our local is very heavily in with oil industry work which is, of course, in a slump right now but we do have a fair amount of work everywhere else. Our local got kicked out of the facilities in the ship channel back in the late 1970s during the great nationwide labor pushback but this year the ship channel came back to us because open shops operating there have had an abysmal safety record. Safety records have actually become our #1 selling point in Houston, to the point that the last two big jobs I've been on have very pointedly had a focus on doing it safe and deliberately and as slow as necessary to do the job in a quality manner without rushing. And that's coming from the GC/customer! So it takes a bit of adjustment.
> 
> We have a system here called an IJ program "Intermediate Journeymen" where people who have some experience in the trade outside the union can test in on a scale of 1-8 and be compensated appropriately. I do not know how the 1-8 IJ scale corresponds with the 50%-90% apprentice pay scale. IJs have courses that they can schedule and take at the school but it is not mandatory as with Apps. It is also significantly less in depth, we had to go once a week for 5 years. Personally, I feel the IJ program turns out weaker electricians except for the ones who already have 8-10 years experience and test in as a 7 or 8. But that's just me.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk


Do you guys not have the CE/CW program down there?


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## Jarp Habib (May 18, 2014)

TGGT said:


> Do you guys not have the CE/CW program down there?


No. I've heard about these programs elsewhere but not really sure what they're about. Here, all roads of training lead to JW.

That does have a bit of a small asterisk. The City of Houston uses our school to train their maintenance electrical technicians but they only get 4 years so they don't qualify for JW. The local is always leaning on the city to take that extra step but no luck yet. I think that's the only institution with a deal like that though. 

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

Jarp Habib said:


> No. I've heard about these programs elsewhere but not really sure what they're about. Here, all roads of training lead to JW.
> 
> That does have a bit of a small asterisk. The City of Houston uses our school to train their maintenance electrical technicians but they only get 4 years so they don't qualify for JW. The local is always leaning on the city to take that extra step but no luck yet. I think that's the only institution with a deal like that though.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk


The Construction Electrician/Construction Wireman classifications basically replace the IJ program. They are an alternate path to JIW classification as well, but people can also become "career CE's" and just never get their licenses and do the same work for less indefinitely.


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