# Glad to be UNION or not



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

I tried to get into the union when I first got into the trade back in 1970. 

I didn't have a family member or anyone in the "inside" to help me out. 

At the time, that was a job thousands of others wanted also and it was locked up tight.

The good thing was that going non-union allowed me to go into business for myself soon after. :thumbsup:

If I had a union job making big bucks, going out on my own would not of looked so appealing


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> It seems as though there are a lot of people out there opposed to unions. Is it because they legitimately are against unions? Are they upset because they did not get a UNION job? What is it? I have worked union and non-union and I have never had someone say that I wish we weren't unionized. There is good and bad, as far as I am concerned, but overwhelmingly, The GOOD outweighs the BAD.
> 
> RIVETER


I am happy to be non-union.

I have been offered union jobs, no thanks. 

To each their own, if it's what you want then great enjoy it. 

*The pros*

High pay 

*The Cons*

Paying to work

Another level of the buddy system

Being a member of a group that does a lot of things that I would be ashamed to be associated with.

Having lazy Fs get raises just because they showed up.

Being chastised for putting in extra effort instead of calling for more help

Worrying more about union politics than doing my job.

Tool lists

Waving an American Flag while extorting higher wages. 

I could probably go on .....


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

I have worked on both sides and whoever offers the most money is the one I will go with and it just happens to the non-union side right now, but I always sale my tools to the highest bidder.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*union non-union*



william1978 said:


> I have worked on both sides and whoever offers the most money is the one I will go with and it just happens to the non-union side right now, but I always sale my tools to the highest bidder.


As long as it is easy to switch back and forth it will work for you. If you are going for the MONEY for your family...I commend you. If you are an opportunist who will use all systems...screw the rest... It will not work out, long term.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

7% of America (and shrinking) can't be wrong.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

RIVETER said:


> As long as it is easy to switch back and forth it will work for you. If you are going for the MONEY for your family...I commend you. If you are an opportunist who will use all systems...screw the rest... It will not work out, long term.


 It is all about feeding the family.:thumbsup:


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*Union non-union*



william1978 said:


> It is all about feeding the family.:thumbsup:


Then I cannot find fault with that.


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

brian john said:


> 7% of America (and shrinking) can't be wrong.


That's kind of a good thing, right?

I mean, if you think about it, the labor unions put themselves out of the job. They wanted to raise the standard of pay, they wanted to raise the standard of work quality, they wanted to raise the standard of job safety. I'd say for the most part, they were successful. So much, that we now labor laws, worker's compensation, over-time, minimum wages, etc., that non-union businesses need to comply with.

Just with anything in America, I have no doubt that unions will make a come-back. These things just go through cycles. Swing from one side to the other.


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## user5941 (Mar 16, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> I am happy to be non-union.
> 
> I have been offered union jobs, no thanks.
> 
> ...


 benefits ; medical,retirement,vacation pay, holiday pay,continuing education

job safety
seniority
no off clock time
no forced use of own truck
no forced use of own tools not on list
no losing overtime


> *The Cons*
> 
> Paying to work


 dues to support local


> Another level of the buddy system


not sure what this is but you sign the book and take the call


> Being a member of a group that does a lot of things that I would be ashamed to be associated with.


exactly what??


> Having lazy Fs get raises just because they showed up.


 as aposed to having no raise for anyone


> Being chastised for putting in extra effort instead of calling for more help


 nothing like screwing the older guys who cant lift three 3 inch conduits on their shoulder and run up a ladder,your day is comming so don't set a pace you can't keep the rest of your life


> Worrying more about union politics than doing my job.


why woorry be happy


> Tool lists[/qoute]i cant afford to supply all the bosses tools so I lose my job because you are willing to
> [
> 
> 
> ...


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

rewire said:


> benefits ; medical,retirement,vacation pay, holiday pay,continuing education
> 
> job safety
> seniority
> ...


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Well back in mid June I wouldn't have one bad thing to say about my Union. Five months out of work and it changes a little. Prior to this year I have never been out of work unless I wanted to be out for some reason. My last boss had asked me a few times what was going on with my knees (I need them replaced) since I had surgery and they were giving me issues. A short time after he asks, I get laid off before other newer guys on the job, I was there three years. I get people to call for interviews from my BA, get several interviews and no call backs from them. I call my BA to see whats up and leave a voicemail, he doesn't call back either. So here I am 49, out of work for months, need both knees replaced (injured on the job), suing the comp carrier and collecting Unemployement. Yeah I have two vested retirement plans with the Union, my dues are paid til next year but, what has the Union done for me lately?


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*Union*



brian john said:


> rewire said:
> 
> 
> > benefits ; medical,retirement,vacation pay, holiday pay,continuing education
> ...


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

rewire said:


> .........
> [ and you prefer begging on your hands and knees
> 
> the term RAT is used to describe guys who would gladly drown their co worker if it saved their job


How sad it is that there are those still out there who hold dearly to their hearts this (never existed) image of the non-union worker. Do you think we are so poor we resort to selling apples on street corners for a nickel apeice? Are we standing in line every day at soup kitchens begging for free handouts? I don't ever recall laying awake at night concocting some scheme on how to stab a coworker in the back so I could advance my career.

I don't need a union to negotiate my next pay raise. I do that all by my confident and hard-working self by doing good work. I never kissed the boss's áss, or sucked on his dïck to get anything. I gave the company an honest day's work for an honest day's pay. And I never felt the need to strike for 6 weeks (and lose 6 weeks pay!) to get a 25¢-hour raise for the next 3 years.

I prefer to make my own path, not one that is determined by someone else with their hands in my wallet.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

One thing SOME union men forget is this is a free society (for the time being) and choice in where we work available to all of us (if your live in a Right to work state).

The new rule the unions are trying to pass doing away with a secret ballot STINKS and shows how desperate unions are getting.

If they worked for the betterment of the men, the company anmd the country. Raises based on performance, not raises for all including slackers, rules protecting the good the bad and the ugly. 

Unions need to get with the program or continue to lose private sector membership.


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## user5941 (Mar 16, 2009)

brian john said:


> rewire said:
> 
> 
> > benefits ; medical,retirement,vacation pay, holiday pay,continuing education
> ...


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## Wireless (Jan 22, 2007)

RIVETER said:


> Then I cannot find fault with that.


So the ends justify the means? One can take advantage of the sstem to feed their famil but not to just make money? Can he rob a bank if he has to?


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## Wireless (Jan 22, 2007)

rewire said:


> nothing like screwing the older guys who cant lift three 3 inch conduits on their shoulder and run up a ladder,your day is comming so don't set a pace you can't keep the rest of your life why woorry be happy


So maybe journeymen should work at the same pace as apprentices. What is ethical about deliberately not putting in full effort because some day you won't be able to?


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## user5941 (Mar 16, 2009)

Wireless said:


> rewire said:
> 
> 
> > nothing like screwing the older guys who cant lift three 3 inch conduits on their shoulder and run up a ladder,your day is comming so don't set a pace you can't keep the rest of your life why woorry be happy
> ...


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

rewire said:


> benefits ; medical,retirement,vacation pay, holiday pay,continuing education


I have all that, thanks. 



> job safety


Have that as well, in house company safety officer and polices in place.



> seniority


I don't believe in it.



> no off clock time


I get paid for the hours I work.



> no forced use of own truck


Have always had a company truck or truck allowance and no one makes me do what don't want to. 



> no forced use of own tools not on list


I have never been forced to supply more than hand tools.



> no losing overtime


Never had that happen either.



> dues to support local


Call it whatever makes it more palatable to you. 



> not sure what this is but you sign the book and take the call



You not seriously trying to say there is no favoritism at the hall?



> exactly what??


Too long to list, give me a break. Slashed tires, intmindation, name calling, picketing sites that are doing fine without you.



> as apposed to having no raise for anyone


I get plenty of raises, ones I earned myself, not ones contractually 'owed me'



> nothing like screwing the older guys who cant lift three 3 inch conduits on their shoulder and run up a ladder,your day is coming so don't set a pace you can't keep the rest of your life why worry be happy


Lifes a bitch, stay useful or get pushed aside, yeah that sucks but that is how it is. Your Momma is not going to take care of you.



> i cant afford to supply all the bosses tools so I lose my job because you are willing to


If I am more valuable for whatever reason and someone has to go .... 



> and you prefer begging on your hands and knees


I have not begged for anything since I used to chase the ice cream truck.

But if I had to choose between asking for a raise and extorting one I would ask.



> the term RAT is used to describe guys who would gladly drown their co worker if it saved their job


And there we go, typical union crap, if someone does not agree with the union line than call them names like a kid on the school ground.

You do your cause so much more harm than good I should thank you. :laughing:


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## Mr. Sparkle (Jan 27, 2009)

There are plenty of union electricians working for cash at open shops right now. 

I even know a few who are licensed and they get a plenty of non union work when they are laid off by lowballing because they do not have the overhead and burden that goes with operating a legitimate business. Their CL ad's say things like "Will beat ANY price."

Opinions anyone? :whistling2:


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## cobra50 (Aug 12, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> I tried to get into the union when I first got into the trade back in 1970.
> 
> I didn't have a family member or anyone in the "inside" to help me out.
> 
> ...


Same here, I stood on line with 900 hundred other other guys(1978) at the old pinelawn rd location.I think they where only taking 6 on to that class.I made it all the way to the interview but was turned down,tried it again few times but finally gave up.


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

480sparky said:


> I prefer to make my own path, not one that is determined by someone else with their hands in my wallet.


 The American way. :thumbsup:


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

Well put Bob; I respect what unions have accomplished over the years, indeed, they were needed at the time to enhance and upgrade worker's rights, however, their time is nearing it's end; free-market economics is too powerful a force to reckon with, as opposed to socialist economics.


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

BuzzKill said:


> Well put Bob; I respect what unions have accomplished over the years, indeed, they were needed at the time to enhance and upgrade worker's rights, however, their time is nearing it's end; free-market economics is too powerful a force to reckon with, as opposed to socialist economics.


Keep in mind that the free(er) markets are part of the reason why we're in such an economical mess. And the effect has been a democratic president, bail outs, and the nationalizing of several industries.

In a few years the flaws of these remedies will be irrefutable. The opposition will point the fingers and the country will swing the other way once again.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Frasbee said:


> Keep in mind that the free(er) markets are part of the reason why we're in such an economical mess. And the effect has been a democratic president, bail outs, and the nationalizing of several


This could not be further from the truth.


1.Several years ago congress passed the Community Development Act, which FORCED banks to make a certain percentage of loans to business and families in the local neighborhoods. Forcing banks to make loans to folks that normally would not get loans, RISKY LOANS insured by US (you and me) via the FDIC.

2. Under the last banking crisis congress allowed banks to buy up failing banks making mega banks, the failure of any one of these mega banks could crash the whole market.

3. Then Congress changed the lending rules at Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, allowing them to make loans to those less than able to repay them, as part of this many middle class were able to OVER QUALIFY for houses they could not pay for.

4. GMAC got into the loan business and under new federal laws (at the time) they basically became a bank with FDIC insurance. Well when the car industry failed and the banking industry failed GM took a double hit and hit us, well it looks like we will take a triple hit as GMAC is asking for more federal dollars.

5. In addition there is a TON of federal regulation that is in place only problem the federal regulators were asleep.

Let the free market work

Let businesses FAIL and new business will fill their shoes if there is a need for the product.


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## regieleeroth (Feb 27, 2009)

Frasbee said:


> Keep in mind that the free(er) markets are part of the reason why we're in such an economical mess. And the effect has been a democratic president, bail outs, and the nationalizing of several industries.
> 
> In a few years the flaws of these remedies will be irrefutable. The opposition will point the fingers and the country will swing the other way once again.


Well put.. Unfettered free market capitalism puts enormous pressure on goods/services sectors to produce at the CHEAPEST PRICE POSSIBLE. Hence, outsourcing, trade law degradation, and worst-case scenario human rights violations. 
The U.S. enforces (to varying degrees) child labor laws, discrimination cases, OSHA standards, a minimum wage. 

When a corporation like Dell, NEER fittings, Klein Tools (just returned a Chinese torpedo level) makes a decision to send operations overseas, it is to circumvent all that "red tape" and maximize profits. Great if you're a shareholder, bad if you're on the factory floor, and as for the consumer, well..... I can't understand customer service when I call Dell, my NEER compression couplings blow apart easily even though I weigh a buck sixty, and my torpedo level still cost 35 bucks and the plumb vial was useless.

Now do we need government torpedo-level regulators, coupling inspectors and the like? Of course not. But regulating some of these high-risk maneuvers made by Wall Street could have limited the recent malaise we're in. (That goes from the repeal of the Glass-Steagal Act in the mid 90's to last year).


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## regieleeroth (Feb 27, 2009)

brian john said:


> The new rule the unions are trying to pass doing away with a secret ballot STINKS and shows how desperate unions are getting.
> 
> So does the company calling meetings to show anti-union propaganda, threatening employees during working hours, spying, firing, demoting, paying anti-union "specialists" to subvert union activity... The deck is so stacked in favor of companies it's not even funny.
> 
> ...


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

regieleeroth said:


> Well put.. Unfettered free market capitalism puts enormous pressure on goods/services sectors to produce at the CHEAPEST PRICE POSSIBLE. Hence, outsourcing, trade law degradation, and worst-case scenario human rights violations.
> The U.S. enforces (to varying degrees) child labor laws, discrimination cases, OSHA standards, a minimum wage.
> 
> When a corporation like Dell, NEER fittings, Klein Tools (just returned a Chinese torpedo level) makes a decision to send operations overseas, it is to circumvent all that "red tape" and maximize profits. Great if you're a shareholder, bad if you're on the factory floor, and as for the consumer, well..... I can't understand customer service when I call Dell, my NEER compression couplings blow apart easily even though I weigh a buck sixty, and my torpedo level still cost 35 bucks and the plumb vial was useless.
> ...


 Pass the Fair Tax and all the money and corp.'s flowing out of this country would come back in a big *ss hurry. It's the tax structures that make companies want to run, simple as that.


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## regieleeroth (Feb 27, 2009)

BuzzKill said:


> Pass the Fair Tax and all the money and corp.'s flowing out of this country would come back in a big *ss hurry. It's the tax structures that make companies want to run, simple as that.


 Too bad Steve Forbes couldn't quite pull it off. 

Tax and everything else I mentioned. All contributing factors.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*Union or not*

Ford motor company posted right at a Billion dollar profit for the just ending quarter. It is a darn shame that they had to do it with UNION workers. Something ought to be done. Ford is also listed as a car manufacturer with tops in quality...Those uppity union workers are trying to pull a sneaky trick... I will keep my eye on them .
Seriously, we have great products to offer and the people who build them have families to raise just as you and I do. Give a Ford a try; I don't think that you will be dissapointed. Thanks,

RIVETER


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

RIVETER said:


> Ford motor company posted right at a Billion dollar profit for the just ending quarter. It is a darn shame that they had to do it with UNION workers. Something ought to be done. Ford is also listed as a car manufacturer with tops in quality...Those uppity union workers are trying to pull a sneaky trick... I will keep my eye on them .
> Seriously, we have great products to offer and the people who build them have families to raise just as you and I do. Give a Ford a try; I don't think that you will be dissapointed. Thanks,
> 
> RIVETER


 I have already bought 3 Fords this year, I gave up on the Sprinter WAY TO EXPENSIVE and upkeep is killing us.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

brian john said:


> I have already bought 3 Fords this year, I gave up on the Sprinter WAY TO EXPENSIVE and upkeep is killing us.


What is a Sprinter?


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*Union or not*



brian john said:


> I have already bought 3 Fords this year, I gave up on the Sprinter WAY TO EXPENSIVE and upkeep is killing us.


Great and thanks for checking us out. Hopefully, you will have many years of good service from your Ford. Were the purchases F-series? They are, and have been the most popular for the last twenty or thirty years.


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

Black4Truck said:


> What is a Sprinter?


 Those really cool Mercedes imported from europe...like a van but you can stand up in it...I think Nola has one, ask him about it.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BuzzKill said:


> Those really cool Mercedes imported from europe...like a van but you can stand up in it...I think Nola has one, ask him about it.


 
I bet that is expensive to fix :no:

I have had Ford vans for the past 30 years and would buy a new one tomorrow if I could :thumbsup:


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*Union or not*



Black4Truck said:


> I bet that is expensive to fix :no:
> 
> I have had Ford vans for the past 30 years and would buy a new one tomorrow if I could :thumbsup:


I've had the E-150, as well...loved it but traded it in when the kids would not go on vacation with me anymore. I didn't think that twenty four...twenty three...and twenty six was to old to go on vacation with dad.


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## Mr. Sparkle (Jan 27, 2009)

I had a Ford Ranger 4x4 that was good to me for 10 years before finally kicking the bucket, but I just cannot dig their vans. The old company I worked for had both Ford and GM vans and man those Ford cabs were cramped. How are the newer Ford cabs?


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Mr. Sparkle said:


> I had a Ford Ranger 4x4 that was good to me for 10 years before finally kicking the bucket, but I just cannot dig their vans. The old company I worked for had both Ford and GM vans and man those Ford cabs were cramped. How are the newer Ford cabs?


I have a 2003 E250 and it has more room than a full size car (Camry) I rented when the truck went in for service. I had to crawl out of the car :no:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Black4Truck said:


> I bet that is expensive to fix :no:
> 
> I have had Ford vans for the past 30 years and would buy a new one tomorrow if I could :thumbsup:


Sprinter, Freightliner, Mercedes, A nice van that cost $8,000.00 more than a comparable Ford van, and have cost me $30,000.00 this year to keep 3 of them on the road.

ttp://www.dodgedealer.com/dodgedifference/?bid=3835377&adid=216966220&pid=40052643&daafs=515&cscr=paidsearch&KWNM=sprinter%20vans&KWID=61357621&family=sprinter&utm_campaign=DWA_700_IP_Washington_WASHINGTONDCHAGRSTWN&utm_source=google&utm_funding=daa&utm_term=sprinter_vans&utm_medium=psearch


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*Glad to be union or not*



brian john said:


> Sprinter, Freightliner, Mercedes, A nice van that cost $8,000.00 more than a comparable Ford van, and have cost me $30,000.00 this year to keep 3 of them on the road.
> 
> ttp://www.dodgedealer.com/dodgedifference/?bid=3835377&adid=216966220&pid=40052643&daafs=515&cscr=paidsearch&KWNM=sprinter%20vans&KWID=61357621&family=sprinter&utm_campaign=DWA_700_IP_Washington_WASHINGTONDCHAGRSTWN&utm_source=google&utm_funding=daa&utm_term=sprinter_vans&utm_medium=psearch


That is a nightmare.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

RIVETER said:


> That is a nightmare.


Yeah I could have bought a new Ford for the money I spent in maintenance.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

brian john said:


> Yeah I could have bought a new Ford for the money I spent in maintenance.


 
Why did you even buy them in the first place?? :blink:


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

I'm looking at Ford's 2010 Fiesta.

Little car to compete with the Honda Fit, and other subcompacts.

I like small cars, but I'm wondering if I shouldn't hold out for Ford's F-100 with V6 direct injection engines. It's supposed to be only slightly smaller than the F150, and the V6 is supposed to get awesome mileage while still pulling like a V8.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Black4Truck said:


> Why did you even buy them in the first place?? :blink:


Lots of room, 21 MPG, historically a Mercedes diesel last 350,000-400,000 miles.


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