# supporting EMT connectors



## Big John

With exceptions, it's within 3' of a termination. I've heard guys argue that "termination" means the end of each stick of conduit.

Most of the world doesn't agree with that, and realizes termination is the beginning and end of each complete run.

-John


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## apprentice14

Just today my foreman stated the termination rule and I replied that a connector does not terminate the pipe. It extends/continues it.


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## rlc3854

*2008 NEC


358.30 Securing and Supporting.​*​​​​EMT shall be installed
as a complete system in accordance with 300.18 and shall
be securely fastened in place and supported in accordance
with 358.30(A) and (B) or permitted to be unsupported in
accordance with 358.30(C).​
*(A) Securely Fastened.​*​​​​EMT shall be securely fastened in
place at least every 3 m (10 ft). In addition, each EMT run
between termination points shall be securely fastened within
900 mm (3 ft) of each outlet box, junction box, device box,
cabinet, conduit body, or other tubing termination.​
_Exception No. 1: Fastening of unbroken lengths shall be
permitted to be increased to a distance of 1.5 m (5 ft) where
structural members do not readily permit fastening within​900 mm (3 ft).
_


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## don_resqcapt19

apprentice14 said:


> Just today my foreman stated the termination rule and I replied that a connector does not terminate the pipe. It extends/continues it.


 In my opinion a connector does terminate the conduit...a coupling extends it.


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## apprentice14

Sorry, I meant coupling, not connector. :no:


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## cultch

It's within nec to strap it every 10'. No need to factor in the couplings. However it can start to look like sh** depending on what/where your running it. I usually don't put 2 straps on 1 piece of emt but sometimes even tho it will be above a ceiling something just makes me put an extra one every so often.


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## hardworkingstiff

At one time the code required a strap within 3' of a fitting. I don't remember when it changed, but at one time you did have to have a strap w/in 3' of a coupling. It may not be code now, but I usually do it (old habits are hard to break, plus since you have to strap at least every 10' why not close to a coupling?).


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## cowboyznindianz

apprentice14 said:


> I have been working for my present employer for about a year now, and all 4 of the foreman/supervisors I work for all believe that conduit couplings need supported. We run tons of 3/4 EMT and I have very politely asked each one of them to show me where this is stated in the NEC. After much searching the fallback answer is always "the inspector insists on us putting a support within 3 feet of a coupling". End of discussion. If I am missing something I would appreciate a code number so I can change my ways. I even went so far as to buy the "picture book" copy of the NEC in case they dumb it down somewhere in there. Nope.


 
Your foremen, I assume have all had some time in the trade....The NEC is only a minimum....I've seen too many older runs where the conduit sags near couplings because somebody, initially didn't care to properly support the run....as buildings shift with the expansion and contraction of the ground throughout different seasons, those areas will be the first areas subject to seperation...Listen to your supervision it's helpful to your future employment...


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## manchestersparky

The 3' from a coupling is from past code cycles. 

From The 1990 NEC
Article 348-12 Supports
Electrical Metallic tubing shall be installed as a complete system as provided by article 300 and shall be securely fastened in place at least every 10 feet(3.05m) and within 3 feet(914mm) of each outlet box,junction box,cabinet,or fitting.

The wording was changed in the 1993 NEC to the current wording in use today.

So prior to 1993 you had to support EMT within 3 feet of a coupling.


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## don_resqcapt19

It was never the intent of the code to require a support within 3' of each coupling. It was an issue with code language and field language that even the CMPs did not catch. The use of the word "fitting" was intended to mean conduit body, and not "fitting" as defined in Article 100. 
The code had the same issue with the 360° between pull points. In the older codes (about the same time the support rule was changed) the code permitted up to 360 degrees of bend between fittings. Again, the use of the word fitting was intended to be "conduit body" but in both cases, since the word "fitting" is defined in the code you had to use the code definition.


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## apprentice14

Yes all my foremen have had some time in the trade and I follow their orders to the letter. However, there is a distinct difference between doing something because it makes the job better (or more "workmanlike") and believing there is a code rule that dictates the practice. At 54 I have done everything from cleaning toilets for minimum wage to building houses, and I am amazed at what little I know. That is why I try to keep up on the latest changes along with all the information an electrician needs to know.


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## cowboyznindianz

apprentice14 said:


> Yes all my foremen have had some time in the trade and I follow their orders to the letter. However, there is a distinct difference between doing something because it makes the job better (or more "workmanlike") and believing there is a code rule that dictates the practice. At 54 I have done everything from cleaning toilets for minimum wage to building houses, and I am amazed at what little I know. That is why I try to keep up on the latest changes along with all the information an electrician needs to know.


It says strap every 10' but that depends on trade size also...If you strapped at 3' from your take off point and went every 10' that would land you within 3' of a coupling (in a straight run). With o.s. and 90's in a run, obviously you would want to add the extra support...I understand what you're saying but when you're doing the job, if it doesn't look right, it's probably not...


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## french connection!!

i usually have 3 to 4 straps per link of pipe , 4 '' to 12 '' from coupling and connector and then proportional on the lenght of the pipe .


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## apprentice14

if it doesn't look right, it's probably not...[/quote]
So true!


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## RIVETER

apprentice14 said:


> I have been working for my present employer for about a year now, and all 4 of the foreman/supervisors I work for all believe that conduit couplings need supported. We run tons of 3/4 EMT and I have very politely asked each one of them to show me where this is stated in the NEC. After much searching the fallback answer is always "the inspector insists on us putting a support within 3 feet of a coupling". End of discussion. If I am missing something I would appreciate a code number so I can change my ways. I even went so far as to buy the "picture book" copy of the NEC in case they dumb it down somewhere in there. Nope.


I guess some people consider a coupling a "weak" point in a conduit system if it isn't installed properly, however, if your boss says to do it he must have bid it that way and it is just more work.


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## BBQ

Big John said:


> With exceptions, it's within 3' of a termination. I've heard guys argue that "termination" means the end of each stick of conduit.


Something to keep in mind is the code section used to read within 3' of a _*Fitting*_ so many of us older guys were taught to secure within 3' of a coupling. 

Personally with EMT I try to get support about 1' from couplings I think it is a better job.


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## RIVETER

BBQ said:


> Something to keep in mind is the code section used to read within 3' of a _*Fitting*_ so many of us older guys were taught to secure within 3' of a coupling.
> 
> Personally with EMT I try to get support about 1' from couplings I think it is a better job.


What code section says that?


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## BBQ

RIVETER said:


> What code section says that?


The code sections dealing with raceway supports used to say within 3' of a fitting, that was changed to termination.


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## RIVETER

BBQ said:


> The code sections dealing with raceway supports used to say within 3' of a fitting, that was changed to termination.


What is the section number? I am just wondering.


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## hardworkingstiff

BBQ said:


> Something to keep in mind is the code section used to read within 3' of a _*Fitting*_ so many of us older guys were taught to secure within 3' of a coupling.
> 
> Personally with EMT I try to get support about 1' from couplings I think it is a better job.





RIVETER said:


> What code section says that?


You must have overlooked this post.



manchestersparky said:


> The 3' from a coupling is from past code cycles.
> 
> From The 1990 NEC
> Article 348-12 Supports
> Electrical Metallic tubing shall be installed as a complete system as provided by article 300 and shall be securely fastened in place at least every 10 feet(3.05m) and within 3 feet(914mm) of each outlet box,junction box,cabinet,or fitting.
> 
> The wording was changed in the 1993 NEC to the current wording in use today.
> 
> So prior to 1993 you had to support EMT within 3 feet of a coupling.


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## rlc3854

RIVETER said:


> What is the section number? I am just wondering.


 
Post #10 tells you.


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## manchestersparky

don_resqcapt19 said:


> It was never the intent of the code to require a support within 3' of each coupling. It was an issue with code language and field language that even the CMPs did not catch. The use of the word "fitting" was intended to mean conduit body, and not "fitting" as defined in Article 100.
> The code had the same issue with the 360° between pull points. In the older codes (about the same time the support rule was changed) the code permitted up to 360 degrees of bend between fittings. Again, the use of the word fitting was intended to be "conduit body" but in both cases, since the word "fitting" is defined in the code you had to use the code definition.


It WAS the intent of the CMP to have supports installed within 3" of a coupling. The 1990 NEC handbook even has a diagram showing it and commentary to explain it. 
I scanned it and tried to post it but kept getting an error message.

The exact wording in the 1990 NEC goes back to at least 1978. I don't have any older then that.
It was changed in 1993.


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## BBQ

don_resqcapt19 said:


> It was never the intent of the code to require a support within 3' of each coupling.





manchestersparky said:


> It WAS the intent of the CMP to have supports installed within 3" of a coupling. The 1990 NEC handbook even has a diagram showing it and commentary to explain it.


I have to agree with manchestersparky unless Don has first hand knowledge of the CMP members that wrote that original rule.


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## drsparky

apprentice14 said:


> Sorry, I meant coupling, not connector. :no:


I never understood why we use connectors and coupl*ing*s and not connectors and coupl*er*s.


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## don_resqcapt19

Part of the substantiation for the change was to remove the question of "is a coupling a fitting". CMP 8 did not directly comment on that, but it remains my opinion that it was never Panel 8's intent to include conduit couplings as fittings. 

To me this is reinforced by the same panel insisting in their comment on proposal 8-58 for the 87 code, that the current wording reflects the panel intent. This proposal had to do with the number of degrees between bends. At that time to code read:


> A run of conduit between outlet and outlet, fitting and fitting, or outlet and fitting shall not contain more than the equivalent of four quarter bends (360 degrees, total) including those bends located immediately at the outlet or fitting>


The proposal was to say that the "fittings" in that section were to be something with a removable cover. The panel rejected the proposal with the comment that the current wording reflects the panel intent. It is very clear that CMP 8 was reading the term "fitting" as meaning a "conduit body" and not as defined in Article 100. It remains my opinion that CMP 8 did the same thing in the conduit support rules and it was never the panels intent to require supports within 3' of couplings.

As far as what the handbook says, that is not an official document and the 1981 and 84 editions of the handbook did not have any commentary related to the EMT support section.


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## Big John

BBQ said:


> ...Personally with EMT I try to get support about 1' from couplings I think it is a better job.


 Agreed. 

Never understood strapping in the middle of a pipe. In addition to being slower to install, it puts the support away from where it's needed most.

-John


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## cowboyznindianz

Big John said:


> Agreed.
> 
> Never understood strapping in the middle of a pipe. In addition to being slower to install, it puts the support away from where it's needed most.
> 
> -John


 
Nearer the connection between conduits.... If you strap within 3' of the outlet (j-box) and then every 10', on a straight run, you will be within 3' of the couplers. I usually strap every 8' in a longer straight run and it is a cleaner and more rigid install... Again, if it doesn't look right, it probably isn't....it doesn't take that much longer to put in additional support...I know, it costs more money...It will cost you your reputation if it looks like a *GILLIGAN *RAN IT...


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## Briancraig81

BTT for anyone else who is questioning this same thing. I've been stuck working under a temp mechanic and he's insisting that I strap within 3' of a coupling, I've even tried to show him where in the code book where it doesn't state that you have too, being that a coupling is not a termination point. All I get from him is "Leave your code book at home, I know what I'm doing I've been doing this for over 25 years"...


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## k_buz

Be careful working for this guy, this is how you know you know something, but it turns out to be wrong.


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## wesleydnunder

Big John said:


> Agreed.
> 
> Never understood strapping in the middle of a pipe. In addition to being slower to install, it puts the support away from where it's needed most.
> 
> -John


If you're in a commercial building and installing boxes and running conduit on bar joists they're commonly 5' apart. That's why the exception to the 3' rule is there. If your box is mounted to a bar joist and your conduit is run perpendicular to the bar joists then your first support is around 5' from the box... in the middle of the conduit.

Mark


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## BBQ

wesleydnunder said:


> If you're in a commercial building and installing boxes and running conduit on bar joists they're commonly 5' apart. That's why the exception to the 3' rule is there. If your box is mounted to a bar joist and your conduit is run perpendicular to the bar joists then your first support is around 5' from the box... in the middle of the conduit.


True enough when running box to box, but when running distance you can just as easily choose the truss closest to the coupling.


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## 360max

drsparky said:


> I never understood why we use connectors and coupl*ing*s and not connectors and coupl*er*s.


my guess would be coup*lers* would be used to join dissimilar connections, and coup*lings* used to join similar connections


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## Southeast Power

360max said:


> my guess would be coup*lers* would be used to join dissimilar connections, and coup*lings* used to join similar connections


It drives me nuts when people call them "couplers"


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## Southeast Power

BBQ said:


> Something to keep in mind is the code section used to read within 3' of a _*Fitting*_ so many of us older guys were taught to secure within 3' of a coupling.
> 
> Personally with EMT I try to get support about 1' from couplings I think it is a better job.


Im not as old as Bob but those of us that run a lot of conduit find that it is easy to put a strap within a couple of feet from a termination and then support the end of that first pipe within a foot or so from the end. It will keep the pipe in place when you are 10 feet away trying to put them together. If you keep up this method, you wont give a second thought about any 10' rule. 

BTW, most old electricians have a burned in visual measuring system that can spot a improperly supported raceway where ever they go, even if it is out to dinner or on vacation.


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## LightsOn81

If you are running 100' in a line from box to box and your first strap is 3 feet from the the first box, you have to have a strap 10 feet from that strap which would put you 3feet away from your first coupling. 

There's nothing wrong with following their rules. They pay for material do it their way. It works to your advantage if you are using compression fittings which have a tendency to work their way loose over time. If your pipe is securely strapped it may slow you down a little but unless they want 400 foot a day out of you it's ok.


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## LightsOn81

jrannis said:


> Im not as old as Bob but those of us that run a lot of conduit find that it is easy to put a strap within a couple of feet from a termination and then support the end of that first pipe within a foot or so from the end. It will keep the pipe in place when you are 10 feet away trying to put them together. If you keep up this method, you wont give a second thought about any 10' rule.
> 
> BTW, most old electricians have a burned in visual measuring system that can spot a improperly supported raceway where ever they go, even if it is out to dinner or on vacation.


And it drives my wife nuts! 75 percent of what I do is run EMT and I got the old sparky eyes already


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## HARRY304E

RIVETER said:


> What is the section number? I am just wondering.


*358.30 Securing and Supporting. *EMT shall be installed
as a complete system in accordance with 300.18 and shall be securely fastened in place and supported in accordance
with 358.30(A) and (B).
(A) Securely Fastened. EMT shall be securely fastened in
place at least every 3 m (10 ft). In addition, each EMT run
between termination points shall be securely fastened
within 900 mm (3 ft) of each outlet box, junction box, device
box, cabinet, conduit body, or other tubing termination.
Exception No. 1: Fastening of unbroken lengths shall be
permitted to be increased to a distance of 1.5 m (5 ft) where
structural members do not readily permit fastening within
900 mm (3 ft).
Exception No. 2: For concealed work in finished buildings
or prefinished wall panels where such securing is impracticable,
unbroken lengths (without coupling) of EMT shall
be permitted to be fished.
(B) Supports. Horizontal runs of EMT supported by openings
through framing members at intervals not greater than
3 m (10 ft) and securely fastened within 900 mm (3 ft) of
termination points shall be permitted.


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## HARRY304E

jrannis said:


> BTW, most old electricians have a burned in visual measuring system that can spot a improperly supported raceway where ever they go, even if it is out to dinner or on vacation.


:thumbup::laughing::laughing:


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