# mystery modules



## JTMEYER (May 2, 2009)

Hard to see in your pics, but they resemble some solid state relays that I have seen.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

The "epoxy device" is an ordinary HVAC style "fan relay". Nothing peculiar about it, but one might guess that it was installed by a full-service mechanical contractor, rather than an electrician, due to the selection of this particular relay.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Looks like you have a motorized main, maybe? Is this associated with a generator transfer arrangement? I see that two of the three terminals are only connected, so I wonder if it's set to motorize on, or motorize off?


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Okay, that thing in the panel is a Square D Class 8903 type PB panelboard lighting contactor.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

I have a couple guesses...

Since the panelboard lighting contactor is only wired to close, AND
since the timer arrangement was obviously replaces with some cobbled together relay arrangement... I MIGHT GUESS THAT...
The 2,000 dollar panelboard lighting contactor went bad AND 
someone noticed that the load was light enough to substitute some low-cost relays.


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## lbwireman (Jan 22, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> The "epoxy device" is an ordinary HVAC style "fan relay". Nothing peculiar about it, but one might guess that it was installed by a full-service mechanical contractor, rather than an electrician, due to the selection of this particular relay.


Thanks Marc, I was hoping you'd be around today and see this post. I've had very little experience with HVAC, other than hooking up discos on RTUs for new construction commercial jobs. Most of my commercial work ended when I moved back to CA from AZ after a mining dispute (she got the gold 'n' I got the shaft). Since then, 10 years of mostly service work, resi and light commercial, so I'm a little rusty in the area at hand. I'm not familiar with the disco shown in pics 3, 4 & 6 (counting from the top). It seems to serve multiple functions beyond just Load Center Disco but I haven't quite wrapped my mind around it yet. Maybe just havin' a bad brain day. Any enlightenment would be welcome. Thanks,
Sean


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

lbwireman said:


> MDShunk said:
> 
> 
> > The "epoxy device" is an ordinary HVAC style "fan relay". Nothing peculiar about it, but one might guess that it was installed by a full-service mechanical contractor, rather than an electrician, due to the selection of this particular relay.
> ...


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

lbwireman said:


> It seems to serve multiple functions beyond just Load Center Disco but I haven't quite wrapped my mind around it yet. Maybe just havin' a bad brain day. Any enlightenment would be welcome. Thanks,
> Sean


Nope. Honest to God, it's just like a contactor. The three terminals on the side are for the control power to the solenoids to turn it on and off. Top is control power L1, middle is control power L2 for "open" and the bottom terminal is L2 control power for "close". It's wired to only close. The front panel stuff is for manual operation, should that become necessary. I think you hold in a little catch through the hole, and rotate the knob with the flip of a screwdriver. I've only seen one in real life, and never operated it. That thing may or may not have aux contacts on the right hand side. It does have a rebuild kit available, I see on the net. It's functionally no different than Square D's PowerLink breakers, except it has no overcurrent protective features. Just turns the whole panel on or off by remote control. The way yours is wired, it does nothing.

EDIT... here's the manual for the thing: http://static.schneider-electric.us...lboard, Mechanically Held/8903PB/8903-584.pdf


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## lbwireman (Jan 22, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> Looks like you have a motorized main, maybe? Is this associated with a generator transfer arrangement? I see that two of the three terminals are only connected, so I wonder if it's set to motorize on, or motorize off?


Not to my knowledge. As I said before the electrics are spread all over. We had limited time to inspect and evaluate. The job is in an Albertsons Supermarket that is now out of business and the security guy who had driven a ways there to let us in wanted us to hurry up so he could get back to his former activity (or lack thereof). I saw no evidence of a genset but there could easily have been one. This panel is in one of the secondary electrical rooms, on the second floor, in the front of the building (offices, employee break area, bathrooms, etc.). The Main electrical room and SE is on the ground floor at the rear of the building (about 1/2 block away), so my guess would be that any backup genset and associated switchgear would be in proximity to that.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Okay, a grocery store makes sense when I see those HVAC style relays. That work was probably done by the grocery store's district maintenance staff. Relays like that would likely be truck stock for the grocery chain's fixxer-upper guys. I've got a couple on my own truck, matter of fact. No cheaper way to get a relay for 24vac control power. Those relays are something like 8 bucks a piece at national HVAC supply houses like United Refrigeration, Johnstone Supply, RE Michaels, Sid Harvey's, etc. Very versatile, durable, and inexpensive relay.

EDIT... related to the relay, Steveco is the most popular modern-day replacement brand, but they are exact copies of the White-Rogers relay. Old timers sometimes call that type of relay a "White-Rogers relay", no matter what brand it is. I think that Mars (GE) has some that look identical also. On a side note, thanks a lot GE for royally screwing up Mars' website when you bought them out.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Looks like a lighting contactor mechanically held, it needs power to open and power to close, hence the relays I am guessing..
I am too lazy to read your complete post and just am going by Marc's response and your pictures,

This panel might be lighting strictly?


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## lbwireman (Jan 22, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> It does have a rebuild kit available, I see on the net.


At the risk of imposing, do you happen to have a link to that location? I'm torn between taking what I'm sure would be the costlier route of trying to replicate the original design (and selling that to the management co./owners of an unoccupied building) or simply cleaning up the bypass so the lights come on at dusk and go off at dawn (their stated objective) by replacing the fan relays with another mechanical timer. 



MDShunk said:


> It's functionally no different than Square D's PowerLink breakers, except it has no overcurrent protective features. Just turns the whole panel on or off by remote control. The way yours is wired, it does nothing.


If I understand the Square D Bulletin correctly, the white #12 conductor is landed on the "Line" terminal and the blue #12 is landed on the "Close" terminal. The other ends of these conductors are made up in the contactor box. I suspect mood altering substances may have played a part in the overrall design.:no:



MDShunk said:


> EDIT... here's the manual for the thing: http://static.schneider-electric.us...lboard, Mechanically Held/8903PB/8903-584.pdf


Thanks for the link. Big help. So it appears that somewhere back down the line the 8903 PB stopped working and somebody bypassed it with the Intermatic T101 since the contactors only need 120V to pull them in and energize the (I believe) 277V parking lot lights (panel is 277/480). Then later, in an attempt to have remote activation of the lighting, someone replaced the mechanical timer with the fan relays, controlled from a remote location on the R & Wh #18 conductors. OK, now I'm rambling/thinking out loud.:jester:

Thanks for all the help.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

lbwireman said:


> At the risk of imposing, do you happen to have a link to that location? I'm torn between taking what I'm sure would be the costlier route of trying to replicate the original design (and selling that to the management co./owners of an unoccupied building) or simply cleaning up the bypass so the lights come on at dusk and go off at dawn (their stated objective) by replacing the fan relays with another mechanical timer.


Solenoid kit: http://static.schneider-electric.us...d, Mechanically Held/8903PB/30072-004-101.pdf
Contact kit:http://static.schneider-electric.us...rd, Mechanically Held/8903PB/30072-450-88.pdf 
You might consider checking with user Zog (Circuit Breaker Sales) first. He might have a slew of them, already rebuilt on the shelf, so that you wouldn't need to fuss with that one. I wouldn't have any issue with putting a kit in one in the field, but many people might find it intimidating. You can end up with a lap full of clockworks in a hurry. 




lbwireman said:


> If I understand the Square D Bulletin correctly, the white #12 conductor is landed on the "Line" terminal and the blue #12 is landed on the "Close" terminal. The other ends of these conductors are made up in the contactor box. I suspect mood altering substances may have played a part in the overrall design.:no:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No, seriously, it sounds like you're on the right track. There might not even be anything wrong with that remote controlled relay that feeds the panel. If, later on, they pulled circuits out of the panel that they didn't want remote controlled (please check), they might have just disabled it and controlled the lighting loads with those wee relays.


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## lbwireman (Jan 22, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> You might consider checking with user Zog (Circuit Breaker Sales) first. He might have a slew of them, already rebuilt on the shelf, so that you wouldn't need to fuss with that one. I wouldn't have any issue with putting a kit in one in the field, but many people might find it intimidating. You can end up with a lap full of clockworks in a hurry.


While a "lapfull of clockworks" actually sounds like a fine afternoon's entertainment to me, my customer feels that yesterday would be a good time to have the parking lot lights not burning all day. Not to mention the fact that I doubt that my "field rebuild" would pass muster re: listing, etc. Hence, if it comes to that, I will give Scott a PM or call and see what he may have laying about. Thanks for the reminder. That "oldtimer's" afflliction seems ta be kickin' in more an' more frequently these days.:blink:



MDShunk said:


> No, seriously, it sounds like you're on the right track. There might not even be anything wrong with that remote controlled relay that feeds the panel. If, later on, they pulled circuits out of the panel that they didn't want remote controlled (please check), they might have just disabled it and controlled the lighting loads with those wee relays.


Good thought. Considering the age of this installation and the jimcrackery that's been done to it since. Checking will occur first thing Mon. AM. I'll post what develops ASA I know more. Great thanks for all the input.


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

Sorry, I dont deal with anything this small. Maybe your local SQ-D distributor?


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## lbwireman (Jan 22, 2007)

Zog said:


> Sorry, I dont deal with anything this small. Maybe your local SQ-D distributor?


Durn! I was going to get in touch with you right after checking this thread for any new develoments. Our main supplier doesn't handle SQ-D but there are about 4 breaker rebuilding shops within a 25 mi. radius. I guess I'll try testing the existing unit then if a changeout is called for, make some phone calls. Thanks (also for the pics last week. They were enjoyed)


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

lbwireman said:


> Durn! I was going to get in touch with you right after checking this thread for any new develoments. Our main supplier doesn't handle SQ-D but there are about 4 breaker rebuilding shops within a 25 mi. radius. I guess I'll try testing the existing unit then if a changeout is called for, make some phone calls. Thanks (also for the pics last week. They were enjoyed)


Well you can send me the info if you like, I may have some surplus laying around but nobody would waste thier time rebuilding a breaker this small. Chaeper to replace than rebuild. Those "breaker shops" that say they rebuilld these are not telling you the truth, they clean them up and maybe test them (always make sure they are tested and you get a report). But a rebuild takes more labor than replacement costs. 

CA is one of those states that has a ton of junk dealers buying stuff in mexico and bringing it in the country, I know a few places that are being targeted by UL right now. Be careful who you buy from out there.


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## lbwireman (Jan 22, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> No, seriously, it sounds like you're on the right track. There might not even be anything wrong with that remote controlled relay that feeds the panel. If, later on, they pulled circuits out of the panel that they didn't want remote controlled (please check), they might have just disabled it and controlled the lighting loads with those wee relays.


Again, Marc, great thanks. Turned out that is exactly what had been done, probably for the reason you stated. We replaced the fan relays with an Intermatic T101 mechanical timer, did a minimal amount of rewiring, set the timer to the customer's rep's requirements, tested...all good, happy customer and awaaayyy we went.:thumbup:


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

From that wider shot, it does look like there's a lot more circuits in that panel than are being switched by the relays. That's probably why they disconnected the big remote-controlled disconnect in the panel. 

Good work. :thumbsup:


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