# GFCI VS. GFPE Commercial Kitchen



## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Never heard of an inspector allowing that. Don't think it would fly here.


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

Would not fly here.

210.8(B)(2) is specific that receptacles in a non-dwelling unit kitchen must be GFCI protected not GFPE protected.

GFPE is designed to protect equipment where GFCI is designed to protect personnel from electric shock.

Chris


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

brother said:


> I know the difference in gfci and gfpe. Gfci is for people protection (5 ma) and gfpe is for equipment protection (30 ma).
> 
> Had a conversation here recently with a guy that claimed that some electricians were allowed to SWITCH the gfci (5 ma) breaker for the gfpe (30 ma) breaker in a kitchen because the (NEW)freezers and refrigerators were tripping them.
> 
> ...


I wrote that underline and that is a bunch of bull if that did trip the GFCI then you have issue with brand new unit that is the factory related issue not the electrician issue at all.

As far for the inspector to approve to use the GFPE device which that way behoind my mind what the inspector do that I think someone will have heckva a time to expain why that dolt allowed it.

I will just call the factory guys whom make that unit and they will have to come out and get this fixed and megger it to make sure.

Merci.
Marc


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

And the authority that said that was...?


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## miguelweb (Jan 27, 2011)

*GFI/GFCI for equipment*

I think most electricians on this forum are missing the point from the equipment manufacturer side. If the equipment runs a motor such as a compressor on a fridge or fan motor on a convection oven, there is no way the start current can be brought that low. So I think everyone should stop quoting the code and start thinking logically. In the end, if you want your customers to be pleased with the service you provide, you need to stop acting like code police officers and leave it to the inspector. If the inspector can't understand that equipment can trip a low rated GFCI, then the problem is with the authority having jurisdiction who neglected to think of the equipment before putting in this requirement. Equipment was installed in kitchens long before they developed GFI or GFCI's.

As for the inspector that allowed it, he did the right thing. He recognized that codes are written with gray areas on purpose to allow room around the mission impossible.


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

miguelweb said:


> I think most electricians on this forum are missing the point from the equipment manufacturer side. If the equipment runs a motor such as a compressor on a fridge or fan motor on a convection oven, there is no way the start current can be brought that low.


You obviously have no idea how a GFCI device works. Inrush current will not cause a GFCI device to trip. A GFCI device monitors the current on the ungrounded conductor and the current on the grounded (Neutral) conductor and if there is an imbalance of more than 4 to 6 Milli-amps then the GFCI device trips.



> So I think everyone should stop quoting the code and start thinking logically. In the end, if you want your customers to be pleased with the service you provide, you need to stop acting like code police officers and leave it to the inspector. If the inspector can't understand that equipment can trip a low rated GFCI, then the problem is with the authority having jurisdiction who neglected to think of the equipment before putting in this requirement. Equipment was installed in kitchens long before they developed GFI or GFCI's.
> 
> As for the inspector that allowed it, he did the right thing. He recognized that codes are written with gray areas on purpose to allow room around the mission impossible.


The code in this instance is crystal clear there is no grey area. 210.8(B)(2) requires all 125 volt 15 and 20 amp receptacles to have ground fault protection for personnel, which is defined in the NEC as a Class A device with a trip threshold of 4 to 6 milliamps. If the inspector was to approve GFPE protection which has a trip threshold of 30 to 50 milliamps IMHO that would constitute negligence on his part.

GFCI protection is to protect personnel from an electric shock that can kill someone. GFPE protection is designed to protect equipment from ground faults.

A properly functioning refrigerator motor will operate perfectly fine on a Class A GFCI device.

Chris


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## Rockyd (Apr 22, 2007)

miguelweb said:


> I think most electricians on this forum are missing the point from the equipment manufacturer side. If the equipment runs a motor such as a compressor on a fridge or fan motor on a convection oven, there is no way the start current can be brought that low. So I think everyone should stop quoting the code and start thinking logically. In the end, if you want your customers to be pleased with the service you provide, you need to stop acting like code police officers and leave it to the inspector. If the inspector can't understand that equipment can trip a low rated GFCI, then the problem is with the authority having jurisdiction who neglected to think of the equipment before putting in this requirement. Equipment was installed in kitchens long before they developed GFI or GFCI's.
> 
> As for the inspector that allowed it, he did the right thing. He recognized that codes are written with gray areas on purpose to allow room around the mission impossible.


 
*Having big balls, does not equate with having big brains. Inspectors are not gods. Smart inspectors (like raider1) use critical thinking to read what "The Code" has to say!:whistling2:*


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## miguelweb (Jan 27, 2011)

If this is the case and compressors and fan motors that have an inrush current should not trip it, why is it reported to still be happening? I can understand a unit with a problem but what about a new unit?

I understood GFCI are used to protect people and GFI are to protect equipment. If this is correct, would a single receptacle GFI instead of duplex be used? Does it meet your local codes? Especially if it is dedicated only for that one appliance?

If GFI are not allowed, what is their purpose? (do they have a purpose in a commercial kitchen?)

Also, if anybody knows where to get a 30 mA GFI single wall receptacle (not GFCI) please let me know. I appreciate it.

Our equipment states that if the unit is connected to a GFI, it must have a 30 mA trip. Are we wrong in saying this? Our fan motors have a much lower current draw (even in rush) than standard convection ovens.

Do all states now require a GFCI in the kitchen? If not, under what conditions is it required? eg. counter top receptacles, near ground, etc.

raider1, is a GFPE the same as a GFI? Looking on the internet, it appears all countries have different terminologies for these devices.


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

miguelweb said:


> If this is the case and compressors and fan motors that have an inrush current should not trip it, why is it reported to still be happening? I can understand a unit with a problem but what about a new unit?


I am not aware of any legitimate reports of modern refrigeration equipment listed to the UL standard for such equipment that is not compatible with a Class A GFCI device.



> I understood GFCI are used to protect people and GFI are to protect equipment. If this is correct, would a single receptacle GFI instead of duplex be used? Does it meet your local codes? Especially if it is dedicated only for that one appliance?


As far as the NEC is concerned, using a single non-GFCI protected receptacle for the equipment is not code compliant.



> If GFI are not allowed, what is their purpose? (do they have a purpose in a commercial kitchen?)


I am assuming you mean GFPE (30 milliamp trip threshold). GFPE is not used for kitchen equipment but is commonly used to protect roof de-icing cable.



> Also, if anybody knows where to get a 30 mA GFI single wall receptacle (not GFCI) please let me know. I appreciate it.


I am not sure that there is any GFPE type of receptacles.



> Our equipment states that if the unit is connected to a GFI, it must have a 30 mA trip. Are we wrong in saying this? Our fan motors have a much lower current draw (even in rush) than standard convection ovens.


If you are stating that then your equipment can not be installed in a commercial kitchen in compliance with the NEC.

Is you equipment listed to UL: Standard 471 for commercial refrigeration equipment?



> Do all states now require a GFCI in the kitchen? If not, under what conditions is it required? eg. counter top receptacles, near ground, etc.


The NEC requires all 125 volt 15 and 20 amp receptacles in a commercial kitchen to be GFCI protected. See 210.8(B)(2).



> raider1, is a GFPE the same as a GFI? Looking on the internet, it appears all countries have different terminologies for these devices.


GFPE stands for Ground Fault Protection for Equipment. The term GFI is just Ground Fault Protection and can encompass a lot of different things such as ground fault protection of large services and feeders.

Chris


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

If the NEC members wants to share some of the kickbacks it gets from manufacturers with me, I'll be glad to use everything they want me to.


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## Skipp (May 23, 2010)

raider1 said:


> The code in this instance is crystal clear there is no grey area. 210.8(B)(2) *requires all 125 volt 15 and 20 amp receptacles* to have ground fault protection for personnel, which is defined in the NEC as a Class A device with a trip threshold of 4 to 6 milliamps. If the inspector was to approve GFPE protection which has a trip threshold of 30 to 50 milliamps IMHO that would constitute negligence on his part.
> 
> GFCI protection is to protect personnel from an electric shock that can kill someone. GFPE protection is designed to protect equipment from ground faults.
> 
> ...


 So the 30, 50 amp 220 volt recepticles are just fine the way they always have been. But the 15 & 20 amp must be GFCI. That makes sense! Because the code is crystal clear. 
How about you make it crystal clear why it's ok for some circuits installed in the same area or conditions to be Non GFI and others not? 
Just because the "NEC says so" is not good enough explaination.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Skipp said:


> So the 30, 50 amp 220 volt recepticles are just fine the way they always have been. But the 15 & 20 amp must be GFCI. That makes sense! Because the code is crystal clear.
> How about you make it crystal clear why it's ok for some circuits installed in the same area or conditions to be Non GFI and others not?
> Just because the "NEC says so" is not good enough explaination.


Because you cannot simply unplug a 30 or 50A appliance and plug in a drill, space heater, floor buffer, hand mixer, etc, with a "standard" 15A 125V plug on it.


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## Skipp (May 23, 2010)

Speedy Petey said:


> Because you cannot simply unplug a 30 or 50A appliance and plug in a drill, space heater, floor buffer, hand mixer, etc, with a "standard" 15A 125V plug on it.


 Nor can you simply unplug a spa/hot tub. But they are required to be on GFCI (for good reason). 
So commercial kitchen circuits are used for drills, space heaters, floor buffers..etc. Can circuits outside of the kitchen area be used for these things as well? If so we better reqiure every recepticle in every building to be GFCI.


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

Skipp said:


> Nor can you simply unplug a spa/hot tub. But they are required to be on GFCI (for good reason).
> So commercial kitchen circuits are used for drills, space heaters, floor buffers..etc. Can circuits outside of the kitchen area be used for these things as well? If so we better reqiure every recepticle in every building to be GFCI.


The reason for GFCI protection in a commercial kitchen has to do with the wash down procedures and the fact that we are dealing with very conductive surfaces. The substantiation was a case where a janitor was mopping down the area in a commercial kitchen and touched a stainless steel appliance. The appliance had a broken ground prong on the cord and the motor in the appliance had faulted out to the frame. The janitor touched the appliance and was killed.

The fact that the UL standard for commercial refrigeration equipment shows that the equipment is compatible with Class A Gfci protection help the CMP come to the conclusion that there is no significant "Nuisance" tripping issues with providing GFCI protection of 125 volt 15 and 20 amp receptacles in a commercial kitchen.

Chris


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

Read the comentary on code changes most will explain why they were adopted.


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

raider1 said:


> The reason for GFCI protection in a commercial kitchen has to do with the wash down procedures and the fact that we are dealing with very conductive surfaces. The substantiation was a case where a janitor was mopping down the area in a commercial kitchen and touched a stainless steel appliance. The appliance had a broken ground prong on the cord and the motor in the appliance had faulted out to the frame. The janitor touched the appliance and was killed.
> 
> The fact that the UL standard for commercial refrigeration equipment shows that the equipment is compatible with Class A Gfci protection help the CMP come to the conclusion that there is no significant "Nuisance" tripping issues with providing GFCI protection of 125 volt 15 and 20 amp receptacles in a commercial kitchen.
> 
> Chris


 Why do they not make commercial kitchen receptacles, with indicating lights, that would indicate an open ground or neutral. Basically like the plug-in circuit testers? What do you think?


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

oldtimer said:


> Why do they not make commercial kitchen receptacles, with indicating lights, that would indicate an open ground or neutral. Basically like the plug-in circuit testers? What do you think?


Most of the times the loss of the equipment grounding conductor occurs in the equipment plugged into the receptacle so an indicator light on the receptacle would not accomplish much in the way of safety and would never replace the safety provided by GFCI protection.

Chris


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

raider1 said:


> Most of the times the loss of the equipment grounding conductor occurs in the equipment plugged into the receptacle so an indicator light on the receptacle would not accomplish much in the way of safety and would never replace the safety provided by GFCI protection.
> 
> Chris


Good Point!


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## miguelweb (Jan 27, 2011)

Thanks Chris
Below are some answers to your questions.



raider1 said:


> I am not aware of any legitimate reports of modern refrigeration equipment listed to the UL standard for such equipment that is not compatible with a Class A GFCI device.
> 
> Ok, perhaps the code is different if it applies to Convection ovens or Convection steamers
> 
> ...


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

> Ok, perhaps the code is different if it applies to Convection ovens or Convection steamers


No, the NEC does not differentiate between different types of commercial kitchen equipment. All 125 volt 15 and 20 ampere receptacles, regardless of what they supply, in a commercial kitchen must be GFCI protected. 



> Our units are 120V and come with a cord and plug standard 5-15P.
> They are made to be used only in a commercial kitchens in Canada and US.
> Our largest unit draws max 1.1 kW and 8.3 A. (again, smaller current motor than standard convection ovens and steamers).


In this case your equipment would have to be compatible with Class A GFCI protection (4 to 6 milliamp trip threshold) or it could not be used in a commercial kitchen in compliance with the NEC.



> No, we make Combi-Steamers.
> Our equipment is listed and certified by UL. I checked the UL website for a number under our certification but they don't list it there.
> Our Gas units are also listed CSA (Canadian but they work closely with the American Authority UL because it is easier to list with one company for both Canada and US in Germany). This is not uncommon among manufacturers. The CSA certification will have a small US on the right side of the CSA logo.


I didn't know what type of equipment you made and the thread was dealing with refrigeration equipment that is why I posted about UL 471.

Now the UL standard for combination steamers would almost certainly have the same requirement that the equipment have a low enough leakage current that it would be compatible with the Class A GFCI device.



> This is the problem I am trying to understand. Perhaps I will look up the GFCI to understand how it works and find out if our gas units should be tripping it. Perhaps customers are trying to plug more than one unit into the same GFCI.


Simply put a GFCI device monitors the current in the ungrounded (Hot) and the grounded (Neutral) conductors. If an imbalance of current between those two conductors is detected in excess of 4 to 6 milliamps the device will trip.

Inrush current from motors will be same on both the ungrounded and grounded conductors so inrush current will not trip a GFCI device.

Chris


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## Stratous (Nov 7, 2019)

The combination ovens my company makes "made in Germany " use a Siemens motor drive that will trip a class A. These are UL listed specifically designed for commercial use. The installation manual states they must be hardwired or use a Class C GFCI.


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

Stratous said:


> The combination ovens my company makes "made in Germany " use a Siemens motor drive that will trip a class A. These are UL listed specifically designed for commercial use. The installation manual states they must be hardwired or use a Class C GFCI.


8 years later?
But I got in the last word!


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## Stratous (Nov 7, 2019)

I wasn't reading the dates. I was web searching for information regarding this topic because it is currently relevant to me. What if at all has the NEC done to address situations like what I mentioned?


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

NY is still on the 2014 NEC and I am in the process of going over the 2017 NEC. Am I reading the 2017 code correctly when it says all receptacles single phase up to 50 amps and all three phase receptacles have to have GFCI for personal? I see a lot of problems potentially coming up if that is true.

Just a thought about the original question. I saw a commercial kitchen wired with multiwire branch circuits and the EC used double pole GFCI breakers. There were many problems with tripping the GFCI.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

2017 nec 210.8.b


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## CTshockhazard (Aug 28, 2009)

Stratous said:


> What if at all has the NEC done to address situations like what I mentioned?



Might be wise to go back to the drawing board as it's only a matter of time before the hard wired units will need 6mA ground fault protection.


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## phamousgrey (Mar 22, 2018)

the basic thing that comes to mind.... if your equipment is tripping a regular gfci outlet [15 or 20amp]...there is something wrong with your equipment. very very few things only thing that comes to mind are dimmer switches and timers [120v devices] that may use the "bonding conductor" as a neutral wire will set off a gfci if they are on the load side of the gfci.


otherwise your equipment is shorting to ground somewhere.


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## Stratous (Nov 7, 2019)

All of our ovens trip a class a gfci. The owners manual even says not to use va class a. It suggest direct wire or class c gfci.


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## Stratous (Nov 7, 2019)

We have tried to convince the Germans to change the design. They are very stubborn.


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## Jaredt (Mar 11, 2021)

phamousgrey said:


> the basic thing that comes to mind.... if your equipment is tripping a regular gfci outlet [15 or 20amp]...there is something wrong with your equipment. very very few things only thing that comes to mind are dimmer switches and timers [120v devices] that may use the "bonding conductor" as a neutral wire will set off a gfci if they are on the load side of the gfci.
> 
> 
> otherwise your equipment is shorting to ground somewhere.


As a factory authorized tech that goes out and repaired commercial kitchen equipment, the issue I run into is that almost all new Combi steamers have variable frequency drives for their fan motors so they can change speed and direction. The VFD cut parts of the sine wave off and dump it to ground under normal operations. That means, a brand new, perfectly functioning Combi steamer, CAN trip a class A GFI breaker. I see it all the time. If you switch to one that trips at 30 mA instead of 5, the problems go away. In Europe, their GFIs are all 30 mA, and that is where many Combi steamer manufactured are.


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