# arc fault not tripping with tester



## spetey (May 23, 2011)

This is the second time I had this problem. the test bottom on a plug tester does not trip the arc fault breaker. has anyone eles ever had this problem. Both times GE


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

spetey said:


> This is the second time I had this problem. the test bottom on a plug tester does not trip the arc fault breaker. has anyone eles ever had this problem. Both times GE


Not sure how the AFCI tester works but the GE AFCI don't have ground fault protection in them. Besides that the only true way to test an AFCI breaker is to push the button on the breaker. Not all AFCI testers are compatible with all brand AFCI's.

BTW, ignore the stuff you will probably hear about GE products. Some members have an attitude about GE & Carlon boxes.


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## spetey (May 23, 2011)

every time my inspectors come around they use a simple plug tester with a test botton and thats how they test to make sure the hole room trips. lights included. it works.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

spetey said:


> every time my inspectors come around they use a simple plug tester with a test botton and thats how they test to make sure the hole room trips. lights included. it works.


They do not always work. Had a friend who had the same issue. It appeared the AFCI worked at the first receptacle but none of the ones further down the line. This inspection department just spent $400 each for these AFCI testers. The contractor finally had to get the company to call the inspection department to telll them they need to upgrade their testers as they wouldn't work more than75' from the breaker. Call the GE people and they will tell you the button is the only way to truly test an AFCI


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

spetey said:


> This is the second time I had this problem. the test bottom on a plug tester does not trip the arc fault breaker. has anyone eles ever had this problem. Both times GE


According to Ul there is no such thing as an AFCI tester, there are AFCI 'indicators' and not all will trip all brands of AFCIs.

The only way to test an AFCI is with the button on the AFCI.


http://www.ul.com/global/documents/...ical/afci/AFCI_Indicators_Regulators_Page.pdf


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## spetey (May 23, 2011)

thanks for the input. now if I can just get the inspector to beleave that lol.. what do you think my chances are ? every town does it that way here in CT . I thought I may have done something wrong but can't figure what it might be.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

spetey said:


> thanks for the input. now if I can just get the inspector to beleave that lol.. what do you think my chances are ? every town does it that way here in CT . I thought I may have done something wrong but can't figure what it might be.


The tester is likely creating a ground fault to trip a GF mechanism, but your GE breakers don't have it, so no trip. Print the specs on the breaker, and the UL sheet above and show them.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

spetey said:


> thanks for the input. now if I can just get the inspector to beleave that lol.. what do you think my chances are ? every town does it that way here in CT . I thought I may have done something wrong but can't figure what it might be.


Ask him to read this thread and join the forum. It would benefit him alot. Let him know that GE had recently redesigned their AFCI with no ground fault and that GE states the button on the device is the only way to get a fair test of the breaker.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Sticking a piece of wire from neutral to ground will trip the AFCI.. does that tell you anything.. :jester: :laughing:


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

B4T said:


> Sticking a piece of wire from neutral to ground will trip the AFCI...


 Wuss! I always go neutral to hot. That's the only _true_ way to test the AFCI! :jester:

-John


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## jbfan (Jan 22, 2007)

Big John said:


> Wuss! I always go neutral to hot. That's the only _true_ way to test the AFCI! :jester:
> 
> -John


I thought that was a breaker finder!:laughing:


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

There is one thing I did learn about the AFCI breakers they are not too far off from our RCD however our RCD will not read parallel arc at all but series arc yeah we can catch it.

For the Américian AFCI breakers the only two sure fire test I have done is either test at the breaker test button or otherwise my RCD tester will trip them { due they are set for either 30 or 100 ma setting } so I know it will work.

Merci,
Marc


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> ... Let him know that GE had recently redesigned their AFCI with no ground fault and that GE states the button on the device is the only way to get a fair test of the breaker.


I wonder why they did that? I have talked with engineers from other manufacturers and they indicate that most of the trips on AFCIs are from the GFP part. The AFCI arc signature part of the device does not even look at series faults below 5 amps. Often a fault is or will become a ground fault with a fault current far below 5 amps. The GFP will clear that fault before the arc signature part even looks at it.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

frenchelectrican said:


> There is one thing I did learn about the AFCI breakers they are not too far off from our RCD however our RCD will not read parallel arc at all but series arc yeah we can catch it. ...
> Merci,
> Marc


Marc,
How does a RCD work to catch a series arc? I thought that RCD was just another term for ground fault protection.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> Marc,
> How does a RCD work to catch a series arc? I thought that RCD was just another term for ground fault protection.


Don, he's French... So, you know...


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> I wonder why they did that? I have talked with engineers from other manufacturers and they indicate that most of the trips on AFCIs are from the GFP part. The AFCI arc signature part of the device does not even look at series faults below 5 amps. Often a fault is or will become a ground fault with a fault current far below 5 amps. The GFP will clear that fault before the arc signature part even looks at it.


Their new design allows you to use 2 single pole arc faults with handle ties for a MWBC. The neutral from the MWBC gets connected to one arc fault breaker.

Check out the PDF


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Their new design allows you to use 2 single pole arc faults with handle ties for a MWBC. The neutral from the MWBC gets connected to one arc fault breaker.
> 
> Check out the PDF


 But my point is is that they loose a lot of the protective functionality when they delete the GFP protection.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> But my point is is that they loose a lot of the protective functionality when they delete the GFP protection.


Why do you need GFP? If you want GFP put in a GFCI-- these are arc fault protection- you don't need GFP in those areas. Also I don't think these devices would work as set up if they had GFP.


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## Josue (Apr 25, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Why do you need GFP? If you want GFP put in a GFCI-- these are arc fault protection- you don't need GFP in those areas. Also I don't think these devices would work as set up if they had GFP.


What's the difference between a GFP and a GFCI?


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Josue said:


> What's the difference between a GFP and a GFCI?



Basically, the rating at which it will trip. GFCI for personnel protection has a trip rating of 5mA. GFP has ratings far higher than that.


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## Josue (Apr 25, 2010)

Peter D said:


> Basically, the rating at which it will trip. GFCI for personnel protection has a trip rating of 5mA. GFP has ratings far higher than that.


So a GFCI receptacle will trip if there is a fault of 5mA and a GFP will trip for example with 5A?


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Josue said:


> So a GFCI receptacle will trip if there is a fault of 5mA and a GFP will trip for example with 5A?


Yeah. GFP protection is usually rated around 30 mA, which is above lethal levels. GFP for large services may be rated even higher, I'm not sure though.


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## Josue (Apr 25, 2010)

Peter D said:


> Yeah. GFP protection is usually rated around 30 mA, which is above lethal levels. GFP for large services may be rated even higher, I'm not sure though.


Thanks!:thumbsup:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Josue said:


> Thanks!:thumbsup:


:sleep1:





































:laughing:

You're welcome. :thumbsup:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Josue said:


> What's the difference between a GFP and a GFCI?


GFCIs (Ground Fault Circuit Interrupters) are intended to protect people

GFP (Ground Fault Protection) is intended to protect equipment, and the trip rating can be miliamps to 100s of amps depending on what is being protected.


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## Josue (Apr 25, 2010)

BBQ said:


> GFCIs (Ground Fault Circuit Interrupters) are intended to protect people
> 
> GFP (Ground Fault Protection) is intended to protect equipment, and the trip rating can be miliamps to 100s of amps depending on what is being protected.


Thanks.

So which is more sensitive, the GFP right?


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Josue said:


> Thanks.
> 
> So which is more sensitive, the GFP right?


Technically, the GFCI is far more sensitive, because it trips at a much lower.


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## Josue (Apr 25, 2010)

Peter D said:


> Technically, the GFCI is far more sensitive, because it trips at a much lower.


ok:thumbsup:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

A GFCI is required to open when the current exceeds about 6 mA, on the other hand many GFPs for services are set at 400 to 800 amps.

This is an oversimplification as time has something to do with it as well.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Why do you need GFP? If you want GFP put in a GFCI-- these are arc fault protection- you don't need GFP in those areas. Also I don't think these devices would work as set up if they had GFP.


Dennis, 
My point is is that the GFP part of the previous AFCIs did most of the work. In talking with a AFCI decelopement engineer from Eaton, I was told that 90 to 95% of the trips are GFP trips and not arc signature recognition trips. 

The AFCI arc signature recognition does not look at "series arcs" with a current of less than 5 amps. Glowing connections (a form of series arc) can produce enough heat to start a fire at well less than 5 amps. With a wiring system that includes an EGC, there will often be a ground fault before a fire starts and the GFP part of the AFCI provides that protection.

It is an even bigger part of the protection of the original branch circuit/feeder type of AFCIs as they did not even look at series arcing faults and did not look at parallel arcing fauts of less than 75 amps.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> Dennis,
> My point is is that the GFP part of the previous AFCIs did most of the work. In talking with a AFCI decelopement engineer from Eaton, I was told that 90 to 95% of the trips are GFP trips and not arc signature recognition trips.


I do understand and I do not know why it is allowed if it were such a big issue. If that were a true concern then GFP should be required also but it is not so I am not sure that the GFP faults that occur are necessarily a fire hazard.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I do understand and I do not know why it is allowed if it were such a big issue. If that were a true concern then GFP should be required also but it is not so I am not sure that the GFP faults that occur are necessarily a fire hazard.


 I am not sure of that and I really don't believe too much of what the manufacturers and UL tell us about AFCIs. 

These are the people that said, in the original AFCI proposals, that they had a device ready to market that would do what they now tell us the combination type AFCIs will do. Those original proposals were some 13 years before the combination type AFCI hit the market.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> Marc,
> How does a RCD work to catch a series arc? I thought that RCD was just another term for ground fault protection.


 
Don.,

I know that question will pop up on moi one way or other anyway the standard branch RCD will genrally can catch the arc series arc due the unblanced load and rapid cycling just enough to trip the RCD but for the main RCD breaker the chance to see the Main RCD breaker to trip from series arc is very small unless the branch RCD is malfunctioned.

Again., The RCD is primarly used for GFP due they are on higher ma setting and we do have 3 diffrent setting we used depending on location it being used. The main RCD typically have 100 ma while branch RCD are at 30 ma and for bathroom or pool useage they are at 6 or 10 ma setting { it depending on which manufacter we get it from }

There were few case the RCD did tripped from series arc but parallel arc ., AFAIK they don't trip unless it combined with ground fault situation arise.

Merci,
Marc


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

i always liked GE loadcenters and breakers


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## ce2two (Oct 4, 2008)

BBQ said:


> A GFCI is required to open when the current exceeds about 6 mA, on the other hand many GFPs for services are set at 400 to 800 amps.
> 
> This is an oversimplification as time has something to do with it as well.


 I have dumb question WHY on commercial switch gear did they start at 1000 amps for G.F.P .:blink:Clue me in?


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

ce2two said:


> I have dumb question WHY on commercial switch gear did they start at 1000 amps for G.F.P .:blink:Clue me in?


 I've seen GFP set a good bit lower than that, but a setting that high is probably for selective coordination: If there's a ground-fault in a branch circuit, you want the branch breaker to have a chance to clear it before it dumps the main. A feeder fault off of the gear is usually gonna be a heck of a lot more than 1000A so it's safe to have it set that high and still be effective.

-John


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

I know for a fact that Seimens arc-fault can only be tested with their buttons. I received an email from their tech dept. that stated this fact. I will look for it tommorow if this thread is still active.


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## zoopenny (May 29, 2011)

*testing AFCI?*

So I was on a service call for an AFCI that kept tripping. Traded it out and it still tripped. Divided circuit in half, still tripped. Finally located a J-box in attic with  loose wirenut from previous electrician... getting toasty. Hmmm it wasn't the crummy AFCI, it was DOING exactly what it was designed to do! The homeowner was CONVINCED it was the breaker. Glad I reserved any comments until I had the answer! With that example it seems like it wouldn't be that hard to make an AFCI tester. Put in a small load device and a simulated loose wirenut-- wouldn't that work? :whistling2:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

zoopenny said:


> So I was on a service call for an AFCI that kept tripping. Traded it out and it still tripped. Divided circuit in half, still tripped. Finally located a J-box in attic with  loose wirenut from previous electrician... getting toasty. Hmmm it wasn't the crummy AFCI, it was DOING exactly what it was designed to do! The homeowner was CONVINCED it was the breaker. Glad I reserved any comments until I had the answer! With that example it seems like it wouldn't be that hard to make an AFCI tester. Put in a small load device and a simulated loose wirenut-- wouldn't that work? :whistling2:



Good work that is the # problem poor workmanship bad splices lose device screws.......


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