# New sub panel pics



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

eeewwwww, a CH CH


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

mcclary's electrical said:


> eeewwwww, a CH CH


You're right, I should have used Murray.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> You're right, I should have used Murray.


 
I'm only picking because I know you like them:thumbsup:


Ford/ Chevy, wanna argue about it?


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> eeewwwww, a CH CH


I don't use anything by C-H if I can avoid it, but the copper bus and connection the breakers make to the bus bars seems hard to top on the CH-CH line.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> You're right, I should have used Murray.


If you wanted to do a low end hack job. :whistling2:


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## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

Whats wrong with just 90ing into the bottom of the panel?


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

MF Dagger said:


> Whats wrong with just 90ing into the bottom of the panel?


 

That's what i thought. That LB is fugly


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## jhall.sparky (Jun 14, 2011)

MF Dagger said:


> Whats wrong with just 90ing into the bottom of the panel?


It would require a bit of skill and experience to kick the 90 into the bottom of the panel.


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## walkerj (May 13, 2007)

jhall.sparky said:


> It would require a bit of skill and experience to kick the 90 into the bottom of the panel.


With PVC?

Sent by my thumbs.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

I could not do this in EMT because I lack the equipment to do that. Though I could buy the bender to do it your way but wouldn't be a wise business decision because 1 1/4 EMT is not a part of a residential service van. The PVC is sturdy and rigid and serves the purpose of safeguarding the feeder conductors and equipment ground.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Here's more


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## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

Magnettica said:


> I could not do this in EMT because I lack the equipment to do that. Though I could buy the bender to do it your way but wouldn't be a wise business decision because 1 1/4 EMT is not a part of a residential service van. The PVC is sturdy and rigid and serves the purpose of safeguarding the feeder conductors and equipment ground.


You're the only one talking about EMT in this thread. Why did you use an LB instead of just taking the 90 into the bottom?


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## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

Looking at your newest picture why didn't you just use cable up in the ceiling and jump over?


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## jhall.sparky (Jun 14, 2011)

MF Dagger said:


> You're the only one talking about EMT in this thread. Why did you use an LB instead of just taking the 90 into the bottom?


Again, because it would require some skill to bend the PVC himself, he couldn't use pre-fabbed bends to kick the 90 off the wall so he did it the amateur way.


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> Here's more


weird.......very weird......


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

steelersman said:


> weird.......very weird......


 Maybe so but one thing it kinda irk moi is the gaz meter how far is that from the edge of the panel ??

Merci.
Marc


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> I could not do this in EMT because I lack the equipment to do that. Though I could buy the bender to do it your way but wouldn't be a wise business decision because 1 1/4 EMT is not a part of a residential service van. The PVC is sturdy and rigid and serves the purpose of safeguarding the feeder conductors and equipment ground.


 

You say you lack the eqyipment to bend EMT, yet you didn't bother to even kick the PVC? 

And why not go overhead? 

Thirdly, you've placed OCPD's too close to a gas meter.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Magnettica said:


> I could not do this in EMT because I lack the equipment to do that. Though I could buy the bender to do it your way but wouldn't be a wise business decision because 1 1/4 EMT is not a part of a residential service van. The PVC is sturdy and rigid and serves the purpose of safeguarding the feeder conductors and equipment ground.


You can bend 1 1/4"- 2" EMT make kicks and even off sets by using objects like 2 trees close together or anything that you can wedge the pipe between like your van tire and the frame of the van,just use small 2x4's to protect the pipe from kinking it just takes a little practice :thumbsup:

BTW your PVC looks fine.:thumbup:


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> You can bend 1 1/4"- 2" EMT make kicks and even off sets by using objects like 2 trees close together or anything that you can wedge the pipe between like your van tire and the frame of the van,just use small 2x4's to protect the pipe from kinking it just takes a little practice :thumbsup:
> 
> BTW your PVC looks fine.:thumbup:


Looks fine to you. They would be fired on my watch.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Looks fine to you. They would be fired on my watch.


Your to tough :laughing:

After all it's in a house and no one will see it anyhow.:thumbsup:


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## davis9 (Mar 21, 2009)

For a kick in pvc that small you could use your knee.

I think SER would have been my choice.

Tom


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

MF Dagger said:


> Looking at your newest picture why didn't you just use cable up in the ceiling and jump over?


Customer was sold a copper feeder. The design is mine. You can run cables all day this is the way I chose.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

mcclary's, I did kick the pvc, down by the panel with the offset. That little kick went to a prefab 90 and at the other end the LB went in a little sideways. I would do this again and post at ET while on line at the bank on iPhone in a heartbeat.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

davis9 said:


> For a kick in pvc that small you could use your knee.
> 
> I think SER would have been my choice.
> 
> Tom


You would choose crappy aluminum over copper and conduit? :no:


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> You would choose crappy aluminum over copper and conduit? :no:


 

Yes, but just in case they make SER in copper too


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

How come you always install your sub panels about 15' away from your main? I''ve noticed this before. Is there any specific reason why? just curious.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

True, why not in the metal studded wall right to the left? No conduit needed, everything will be in the wall.


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

Shockdoc said:


> How come you always install your sub panels about 15' away from your main? I''ve noticed this before. Is there any specific reason why? just curious.


Because he's not all that sharp on things.....didn't you notice how he didn't know how to make a simple kick? Hahahahaha those pics are hilarious.....I love how he thinks spray painting the plywood black is so cool.......:laughing:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

steelersman said:


> Because he's not all that sharp on things.....didn't you notice how he didn't know how to make a simple kick? Hahahahaha those pics are hilarious.....I love how he thinks spray painting the plywood black is so cool.......:laughing:


I don't see a problem with *his* design since it was *his* job and the money is in *his* pocket..:thumbsup:

Some guys here would of run MC cable over the top if they had a short piece on the truck..

I think painting the board is a great idea.. but I personally like a dark gray color instead..

You seem to enjoy ripping people about anything you can find.. why are you such a miserable human being.. :no:


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## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

OP, why not use a PVC LR instead of an LB?



frenchelectrican said:


> Maybe so but one thing it kinda irk moi is the gaz meter how far is that from the edge of the panel ??
> 
> Merci.
> Marc


Relax dude, it's just a gas meter. You think it leaks gas or something?


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

B4T said:


> You seem to enjoy ripping people about anything you can find.. why are you such a miserable human being.. :no:


Mind your business oldman.....


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## davis9 (Mar 21, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> You would choose crappy aluminum over copper and conduit? :no:


As stated SER is available as a Cu cable. Depending on where is was I may use Al. Cu is a tougher sell nowadays, but I'll give 'em the option if they want it.:thumbup:

Tom


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Magnettica said:


> Customer was sold a copper feeder. The design is mine. You can run cables all day this is the way I chose.


I wish the option of Aluminum SE and SER cable was available here. Only services can have aluminum so I'm stuck using copper past that point on all residential. AL SE or SEU is special order or a trip to Jersey or PA.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

steelersman said:


> Mind your business oldman.....


Wow.. great come back.. calling me old man is suppose to mean something.. :blink::blink:

When a loser like you has nothing left to say.. they always become a bottom feeder.. good to see you're consistent.. :no:


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Magnettica said:


> You would choose crappy aluminum over copper and conduit? :no:


Yup. ABSOLUTELY no difference. SER AL to feed that sub panel that feeds CABLES. :thumbup:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

electricmanscott said:


> Yup. ABSOLUTELY no difference. SER AL to feed that sub panel that feeds CABLES. :thumbup:


Yeah. I second that. All day long. SER cable. Yup. good stuff. :thumbsup:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

electricmanscott said:


> Yup. ABSOLUTELY no difference. SER AL to feed that sub panel that feeds CABLES. :thumbup:


I hope your new truck came in i cant wait to drive it...:whistling2::laughing::laughing:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Peter D said:


> Yeah. I second that. All day long. SER cable. Yup. good stuff. :thumbsup:


Pipe and copper = more money...:thumbup:


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

jza said:


> Relax dude, it's just a gas meter. You think it leaks gas or something?


 
leaks gas or not, it would never pass here. 3 ft to a meter and OCPD, and 10 ft to a regulator and OCPD


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> Pipe and copper = more money...:thumbup:


:sleep1:


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> Pipe and copper = more money...:thumbup:


 

True, which means in most situations, he loses the bid.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

HARRY304E said:


> I hope your new truck came in i cant wait to drive it...:whistling2::laughing::laughing:


I went to visit it today. It's back from the upfitter and sitting at the dealer. :thumbup: Having plow and lettering done this week. Pray for snow. :laughing:


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

bad tony....bad post.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

captkirk said:


> You know what.......WHO FUC&EN cares how he installed it, whether he went up and over, down and up, lb or no lb, pvc or emt or rigid, cu or alu, painted or not painted the black board................. WHO CARES ?
> 
> ....The customer, Im sure could probably give two sh its...and as long as Ron made money and its to code and safe you really cares......?It doesnt look sloppy to me. Its funny that you old farts acually care that much.
> 
> ...


 

Is this your new angle? Come on every thread and bithc about what we're discussing. If you don't care so much,,,,quit coming on here. I've heard you say this way too often lately.


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Is this your new angle? Come on every thread and bithc about what we're discussing. If you don't care so much,,,,quit coming on here. I've heard you say this way too often lately.


 Im looking for something to enlighten me and its always the same fare...You can post a text book picture of something and someone will still have something to say....


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

captkirk said:


> Im looking for something to enlighten me and its always the same fare...You can post a text book picture of something and someone will still have something to say....


 

Very true, which is normally helpful. This install is far from textbook, and what do you want, 42 post of us saying , Nice work. 

post #2 nice work
post #3 nice work
post #4 nice work.








Yeah, that would be a fun forum.


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Very true, which is normally helpful. This install is far from textbook, and what do you want, 42 post of us saying , Nice work.
> 
> post #2 nice work
> post #3 nice work
> ...


Ron is my friend so I back him up...besides im being honest too. I think he could have made the job easier for himself but what ever... Im also kind of over the elitist attitude some guys have...thats when I speak up..


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

THe other point "Larry" and im calling you larry cause you seem like a larry, is that eveyone is coming from a different place in here.

There are guys here that work for big outfits that have more time and resources at their disposal and there are guys like me, Ron, B4T, Electric Scott, that work for ourselves and its about getting in and out... 

I persoanlly dont have the luxury of staying on a job for as long as I feel like or make it as pretty as I want because I need to get to the next one ASAP. I got people breathing down my neck sometimes..
Its very rare now that I will book a full week because by the time tues or wed rolls around I will already have a couple of service or emergency calls from new or regular customers.... I gotta get in and out as efficently as possible... 

So my point is, before you start ripping a guy for his work, or why he painted a wood board (just a low blow) try to see where he is coming from because in the end we are all apples and oranges. 

Oh and I do a lot more reading here and on other sites than I acually post, I just like to bring some guys back to reality, sorry if it struck a nerve with you.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

I think his install is fine even though I would have slapped in a piece of SE-R and gotten out of there. I see no need for conduit methods in a dwelling unit and even most commercial jobs for that matter, but some do.


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

There's enough crap over head, I'd probably done it close to the same way but I'd of heated up the PVC with a torch and made the bends a little cleaner and definitely came in the bottom. Screw the LB or LR.


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

B4T said:


> Wow.. great come back.. calling me old man is suppose to mean something.. :blink::blink:
> 
> When a loser like you has nothing left to say.. they always become a bottom feeder.. good to see you're consistent.. :no:


Hahaha you are so feeble minded.....you aren't close to being on the radar.....


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> True, which means in most situations, he loses the bid.


these bonesuckers don't understand basic things like this though.....


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

captkirk said:


> Ron is my friend so I back him up....


sorry about that.....but he posts so much toolish crap.....


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

electricmanscott said:


> I went to visit it today. It's back from the upfitter and sitting at the dealer. :thumbup: Having plow and lettering done this week. Pray for snow. :laughing:



Nice,, looking good that is the best set up .:thumbup::thumbup:

There will be Blizzard conditions this winter ..:thumbup: :laughing:


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

Peter D said:


> I think his install is fine even though I would have slapped in a piece of SE-R and gotten out of there. I see no need for conduit methods in a dwelling unit and even most commercial jobs for that matter, but some do.


I couldn't have said it any better.......that's it right there.....but some dolts will never get it.....they think they have to run copper and conduit and that SER or SEU or aluminum is hack.......idiots is all they are....


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

steelersman said:


> Hahaha you are so feeble minded.....you aren't close to being on the radar.....





steelersman said:


> these bonesuckers don't understand basic things like this though.....





steelersman said:


> sorry about that.....but he posts so much toolish crap.....


:sleep1::sleep1::sleep1:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

steelersman said:


> these bonesuckers don't understand basic things like this though.....


Boring..:sleep1:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

steelersman said:


> Hahaha you are so feeble minded.....you aren't close to being on the radar.....


Boring..:sleep1:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

steelersman said:


> sorry about that.....but he posts so much toolish crap.....


Boring..:sleep1:


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> Boring..:sleep1:


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

electricmanscott said:


> Yup. ABSOLUTELY no difference. SER AL to feed that sub panel that feeds CABLES. :thumbup:


There is a difference, I guess you just don't the what the difference is.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

mcclary's electrical said:


> True, which means in most situations, he loses the bid.


Hmm.. not if it's me they want to hire. Competing on price is for suckers. But if you want answers, dependability, and the best materials, then I'm your EC.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> Hmm.. not if it's me they want to hire. Competing on price is for suckers. But if you want answers, dependability, and the best materials, then I'm your EC.


I can dig that. That's a good way to be.

But IMO, it's a lie to tell the customers a copper feeder is better than ser. Better how? Both will outlast the house you put it in.


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*Aluminum Facts*

Refresher 

A NEW ALUMINUM…

In 1968 Southwire Company led the way in aluminum building wire technology with the advent of triple e® aluminum alloy, resulting in the very first AA-8000 series aluminum alloy. This change resulted in the higher aluminum standards that are still observed today. Starting with a clean slate, metallurgists developed an aluminum alloy that possessed the characteristics desirable in an aluminum building wire. In 1972, and for the first time, aluminum building wire was manufactured with its own metal, not a poor fitting hand-me-down from electrical utility applications. One alloy does not fit all!

This new aluminum alloy, developed and patented by Southwire, bridged the gap in key metal characteristics between copper and aluminum. In AA-8000 series aluminum alloy characteristics such as elongation, thermal stability, compressive creep and flexibility were much closer to that of copper. In addition to a new aluminum alloy, aluminum building wire and devices were being tested and listed for compatibility. The use of compatible materials, proper testing and listing resulted in a reliable aluminum electrical wiring method. In 1981, the NEC® began requiring aluminum alloy conductors for 12, 10 and 8 gauge conductors. In 1987 NEC® began requiring AA-8000 series aluminum conductors. This has remained unchanged and can be found in the 2008 NEC® Section 310.14. AA-8000 series aluminum alloy conductors have properties that are significantly different from the old AA-1350 aluminum conductors. To confirm your cable has these conductors, look for the designation “AA-8176” on Southwire’s cable print legend. For other aluminum building wire products, make sure there is an “AA-8…” followed by three other digits.

In addition, copper/aluminum compatible (CO/ALR) devices were required for aluminum wire branch circuits and listed by UL. These devices were developed to be compatible with 10 and 12 AWG aluminum conductors. Due to the cost of these connectors and devices, it is no longer economical to use these sizes in aluminum.

Today, aluminum AA-8000 alloy is fully recognized by industry standards and is required in all aluminum building wire installed per the NEC.® This new aluminum is generally compact stranded according to ASTM B-801. Compact stranding reduces the diameter of the conductor by 9-10%. Equal ampacity AA-8000 aluminum and copper conductors can usually be installed in the same size conduit because of the compact stranding. Annex C in the 2008 NEC® includes tables for determining conduit fill when using compact stranded conductors. These tables can be used for both compact stranded aluminum and copper conductors.

FIRST IMPRESSIONS ARE HARD TO CHANGE

Even though aluminum was poised for the comeback it deserved, market conditions and lack of understanding prevented it from reaching it’s full potential. Copper prices at the time were relatively low so little motivation existed to try something new. First impressions are hard to change and although some considered it as a new alternative, others still perceived it as the same wire used in the 50’s and 60’s.

Aluminum building wire is something few people in the residential and commercial electrical industry don’t have a passionate opinion about. More often than not, you will find this opinion is based on 40-year-old facts, and a misunderstanding of those facts. Aluminum building wire, through the efforts of manufacturers like Southwire, and organizations such and the NEC® and UL,® is a proven safe and reliable system.

And don’t forget about the advantages of aluminum building wire over copper, particularly in the larger sizes (6AWG- 900kcmil). It is much lighter and more economical. This means easier installations, fewer injuries, and pound-for-pound more conductivity. Those that have embraced feeder sized aluminum building wire, are reaping the benefits, and may very well be hoping you walk away from this information clinging tight to your old misconceptions since they could be bidding their next job against you.

So why tell this story? With the rise in copper prices over the past few years renewed interest in aluminum building wire is gathering. Many contractors and owners find themselves looking for an alternative to provide relief from rising copper prices. Unfortunately, they are still being misinformed that the very solution they hope for does not exist. Well it does and it has for over 35 years. It’s called AA-8000 series aluminum alloy. And Southwire Company developed it in 1968. So now when you hear someone say “aluminum causes fires” you can reply with the facts about today’s aluminum building wire:

A problem that happened 40 years ago, failure of utility grade aluminum and a simple steel screw, is simply not relevant to the aluminum building wire installed today. With the development of an improved aluminum alloy, AA-8000, increased NEC® and UL® requirements, and a proven track record of over 30 years, aluminum building wire is just as safe and just as reliable as copper.

DID YOU KNOW?

• Material shortages after WWII and a housing boom in the 1960’s caused the switch from copper to aluminum in building wire.

• Pre-1972 aluminum wire is referred to as either AA-1350 aluminum, EC aluminum or utility grade aluminum because it was the same construction used in utility wire.

• The National Electrical Code® has permitted the use of aluminum wire since 1901.

• Southwire developed and patented the first AA-8000 Series aluminum alloy in 1968 setting a standard for the manufacturing of aluminum building wire that exists today.

• In the 80’s, UL® and NEC® required new connectors and devices assuring reliability of aluminum building wires performance.

• It takes only one pound of aluminum to equal the current-carrying capacity of two pounds of copper.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

steelersman said:


> sorry about that.....but he posts so much toolish crap.....


Not nearly as much as you. And I think most would agree. 

You, on the other hand contribute a lot to the site, most of it is useless however..


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Magnettica said:


> There is a difference, I guess you just don't the what the difference is.


I don't. Educate me.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

electricmanscott said:


> I don't. Educate me.


:no:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Magnettica said:


> Not nearly as much as you. And I think most would agree.
> 
> You, on the other hand contribute a lot to the site, most of it is useless however..


:thumbup::thumbup:


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Magnettica said:


> :no:


Yeah, exactly.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> Hmm.. not if it's me they want to hire. *Competing on price is for suckers*. But if you want answers, dependability, and the best materials, then I'm your EC.


I don't buy that.. :no:

If that was true.. people would not be getting (5) estimates for a job and picking the cheapest estimate..

I can't be the only one who has lost jobs to a cheaper price and it has nothing to do with selling skills..

When I quote a number to the HO or GC.. sometimes I ask what kind of numbers they have gotten..

"YOUR HIGH".. is always the kiss of death..


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

B4T said:


> I don't buy that.. :no:
> 
> If that was true.. people would not be getting (5) estimates for a job and picking the cheapest estimate..
> 
> ...


 

I really loved a flyer our local building department mailed out after the earthquake. They recommended getting three estimates, and they recommended NOT taking the cheapest one. Good advise.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

electricmanscott said:


> Yeah, exactly.


Exactly.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

B4T said:


> I don't buy that.. :no:
> 
> If that was true.. people would not be getting (5) estimates for a job and picking the cheapest estimate..
> 
> ...


Bob, with all due respect, I don't want customers who are looking for the cheapest price. I learned early on that customers like that are not the kind that I want to work for because there's always an undesirable issue. The idea is to land higher priced jobs (and fewer of them), so that I can provide even better customer service to these elite customers and not have to worry about the $1,000 100-amp service-type customer who does nothing but ask questions and bargain down the price even after a price has been set.


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

electricmanscott said:


> Yeah, exactly.


He's one of the many electricians that don't understand that aluminum is just as good as copper. His head was in the sand but maybe now that he's just read up on the good info posted about it he will understand......


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> Bob, with all due respect, I don't want customers who are looking for the cheapest price. I learned early on that customers like that are not the kind that I want to work for because there's always an undesirable issue. The idea is to land higher priced jobs (and fewer of them), so that I can provide even better customer service to these elite customers and not have to worry about the $1,000 100-amp service-type customer who does nothing but ask questions and bargain down the price even after a price has been set.


Ron.. what ever works for you is the way you plan on making a living.. :thumbsup:

I really don't care what the customer is looking for.. I give them the best job I can for the price I quoted..

Having a pile of money in my pocket is better than it being in the pocket of the guy before me..

I am not say that EVERY job goes to the lowest price.. I know that is not true..

But people are shopping every little thing they want done and I don't see that changing anytime soon..


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

steelersman said:


> He's one of the many electricians that don't understand that aluminum is just as good as copper. His head was in the sand but maybe now that he's just read up on the good info posted about it he will understand......


I don't sell aluminum wire for anything and it has never come back to bite me in the ass.. :no:

I put on my estimate copper wire and so far nobody has asked me why or asked for a price with AL instead..

It is a personal choice.. nothing wrong with that.. :thumbsup:


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

steelersman said:


> aluminum is just as good as copper



Then why the price difference?


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

I base all original estimates on services in Aluminum, I do not volunteer what brands, methods or wire type I am using. To date no customer has asked. I have even started using aluminum for GECs for 200 amp and above services. Legal, safe and reliable. It's beneficial when I bid against another EC that bases his price upon a 100% copper job and I'm 100 to 200 dollars cheaper.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

B4T said:


> I don't sell aluminum wire for anything and it has never come back to bite me in the ass.. :no:


Yet you sell junky aluminum bus Murray panels with aluminum lugs to boot. Do your meter sockets come with copper guts too? :no: 

Your refusal to use aluminum wire is a perfect example of someone who cannot think critically and see the obvious contradictions in your methods.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Peter D said:


> Yet you sell junky aluminum bus Murray panels with aluminum lugs to boot. Do your meter sockets come with copper guts too? :no:
> 
> Your refusal to use aluminum wire is a perfect example of someone who cannot think critically and see the obvious contradictions in your methods.


 

And maybe the reason he's having trouble staying busy...


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

mag- Copper is better!!! me-Why?? mag-You don't know!! me-So tell my why??? mag- NO!!! 

hahahaah way to make your point. :laughing: :no:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

steelersman said:


> aluminum is just as good as copper.





Magnettica said:


> Then why the price difference?


Mag ........ come on man, you really did not ask that did you?


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*Excerpts*

More Facts starting with Cliff Notes at top

So what have we learned? I think we’ve busted the myth that aluminum wiring is unsafe and should never be used for commercial purposes. If you use the right product for the job and follow proper installation practices, aluminum wiring may be up to the test. With copper demand so strong worldwide, it might not be such a bad idea to consider aluminum as a viable option for large wiring projects.


Connections for aluminum are more critical than copper, and although these installation steps are not difficult, they are indeed different from copper installation and need to be followed per instructions

When connections are made correctly, aluminum conductors actually run at a lower resistance, and therefore a lower temperature, than copper conductors

Another design issue challenge is that aluminum cannot be used to directly terminate to motors due to the current UL listing limitation on motors. This limitation can be overcome by running aluminum to the disconnecting means and running copper to the motor

conductivity of aluminum is still only about 80 percent than that of copper.

In utility applications, aluminum has a long-standing track record, and it continues to provide substantial performance in commercial and institutional applications.

Aluminum is also being used more frequently in heavy commercial facilities. MC cable with aluminum feeders is becoming a staple in many high rise buildings, stadiums, shopping malls, commercial buildings, wastewater treatment, and manufacturing facilities. Contractors are installing them in service entrance conductors, large conductors, and power distribution conductors

One industry recommendation is to use aluminum wiring at 1/0 or larger, since installing smaller conductors tends to become more expensive. This is because terminations in branch circuits necessitate more space, as installation would require both an aluminum-to-copper termination and a copper-to-equipment termination

“Copper’s unquestioned superiority over aluminum building wire is at the point of connection. Although improved aluminum building wire materials have been developed to alleviate the tendency for connections to loosen as the metal ‘cold creeps,’ no amount of alloying will change the inherent nature of aluminum to immediately form, upon exposure of a fresh surface to air, a tightly adherent, high resistance oxide film

“A survey of U.S. electrical contractors on their preference of building wire materials showed that they preferred copper 20 to 1 over aluminum

The most likely and often identified culprits were: workmanship, thermal expansion differences, and creep.


However, newer AA-8000 aluminum alloys have creep rates very similar to copper building wire. This means that AA-8000 conductors perform very much like copper conductors at terminations.

“Corrosion is often cited as a contributing cause of failure at aluminum connections. Nowadays, a thin, protective layer of oxide on aluminum conductors contributes to the excellent corrosion resistance of aluminum. When terminations are made correctly, the oxide layer is broken during the termination process, allowing the necessary contact to be made between conducting surfaces.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

BBQ said:


> Mag ........ come on man, you really did not ask that did you?


I want to hear an answer from him since he normally waits for someone to answer for him then agrees with that person.


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

Wow what a mine field. AL has been used for years in WNY. Almost exclusivly. I use it all the time. Anti-ox the Sxxt outta it. The meter can is AL lugged too. The POCO uses it to feed the system, so why not extend it to panel? The triplex is AL so what the beef? In resi work this is the norm for 30yrs in my area. Comm/Ind feeders cooper then we match it. Most h/o's don't have clue and seem to careless. Cooper in a perfect world...Look at the crappy homes some guys build and people buy em ! People go to college come out educated and can't pound a nail. They dont have a clue as to what we do...but ask them what a syntex error is !


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Magnettica said:


> I want to hear an answer from him since he normally waits for someone to answer for him then agrees with that person.


As you wish ....


Hey how are your Jets doing?


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Hey how are your Jets doing?


They choked.. almost as good as the Yankees..


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> They choked.. almost as good as the Yankees..



Baseball? ......... lets not talk about baseball. :whistling2::hang:


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Tough week for me. Yanks lose, Isles lose, Jets lose. 

Lose, lose, lose (not loose, loose, loose).


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Magnettica said:


> Tough week for me. Yanks lose, Isles lose, Jets lose.
> 
> Lose, lose, lose (not loose, loose, loose).


To top it off, you sold people on lies and propaganda!!! :laughing:


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

electricmanscott said:


> To top it off, you sold people on lies and propaganda!!! :laughing:


That's not true. Don't say that.


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## AnthonyClifton (Sep 14, 2011)

Magnettica said:


> You're right, I should have used Murray.


 

I always use Siemens. I like the copper buss bar.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Magnettica said:


> That's not true. Don't say that.


If you can give me legitimate reasons why "copper is better" I'll stop saying that. Until then what I said is true.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> And maybe the reason he's having trouble staying busy...



It could be. I don't know. What I do know for certain is that refusing to use aluminum conductors in 2011 is silly and shortsighted. But hey, if being stuck in your ways means you lose work and lose money, not my problem.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

electricmanscott said:


> If you can give me legitimate reasons why "copper is better" I'll stop saying that. Until then what I said is true.


You want to be a ****ing jerk off you be a ****ing jerk off.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

Wow, calm down princess...


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> You want to be a ****ing jerk off you be a ****ing jerk off.


Hey. If you want to get your point across say "fuk" or some such.
:whistling2:


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

The two vids on this page pretty much say it all... 

http://www.southwire.com/commercial/aluminum-mega-mc-cable.htm


Aluminum is good. :thumbsup:


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> Then why the price difference?


Wow you're a tool.....:laughing:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

electricmanscott said:


> If you can give me legitimate reasons why "copper is better" I'll stop saying that. Until then what I said is true.


Every time I run into a LIPA lineman.. I ask him about CU vs AL services..

So far not one of them has said they are the same.. CU.. hands down has the least amount of burnt up lugs in transformers.. meter pans.. and panels..

LIPA guys will pull a panel cover and see where the problem is..

These guys are on the front lines of service work and I believe them..

I have never had a customer ask me for AL wire instead of CU.. 

There is no reason why I would not use AL if the customer wanted it..

Copper is top shelf when it comes to conductors and my customers don't mind paying for it..

You guys who sell AL.. good for you.. :thumbsup:


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

He never disappoints.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Actually, gold and silver are better conductors than copper.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

electricmanscott said:


> If you can give me legitimate reasons why "copper is better" I'll stop saying that. Until then what I said is true.





Magnettica said:


> You want to be a ****ing jerk off you be a ****ing jerk off.


Good answer. Way to make your point. :no:

As for the poco argument, nonsense when applied to a standard issue resi service. Which by the way, is usually connected to aluminum service drop.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

electricmanscott said:


> As for the poco argument, nonsense when applied to a standard issue resi service. Which by the way, is usually connected to aluminum service drop.


Scott.. you should not ask questions if you can't accept the answers.. it shows weakness on your part.. :no:


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

B4T said:


> Scott.. you should not ask questions if you can't accept the answers.. it shows weakness on your part.. :no:



You mean like this.....


Magnettica said:


> You want to be a ****ing jerk off you be a ****ing jerk off.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

electricmanscott said:


> If you can give me legitimate reasons why "copper is better" I'll stop saying that. Until then what I said is true.


It's easy sell the Cadillac job, not the Ugo job.


Here is my point you go to a customers home look at their service and sell them a new one all top of the line,, sell the job and seal the deal.

If you leave without the green light then you already lost the job anyways.


It is more than likely that the customer has gotten the trunk slammers 
Al Price but he failed to make the sale that's why they called you .,Your job is to sell the top of the line product "Copper and Pipe" there is more profit for you, and the customer has the piece of mind that they have found the best most trustworthy Electrician to do the job..:thumbup:


How's my new truck doing....:laughing::thumbup::laughing:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

electricmanscott said:


> You mean like this.....


This is what you posted.. _"To top it off, you sold people on lies and propaganda!!!"_

What gives you the right to judge someone else and say they are a liar and basically a thief for using "propaganda" as a tool to sell a job.. :blink::blink:

You could of easily said you don't agree with his views.. but instead you decided personal insults was more your style.. :no:

So you got back what you gave to him in the first place..personal insults :thumbsup:


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

B4T said:


> > This is what you posted.. _"To top it off, you sold people on lies and propaganda!!!"_
> 
> 
> To that, I would agree
> ...


Around here? Nah, I don't believe that:whistling2:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Around here? Nah, I don't believe that:whistling2:


You're not exactly a shinning example of a person who has two feet firmly planted on the ground..:no:

As I remember.. you have your nuts hanging from the back of your tri-cycle..swinging in the breeze.. :laughing:

But thanks for the attempt to add something of interest to the debate..


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## davis9 (Mar 21, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> Actually, gold and silver are better conductors than copper.



Silver yes, gold no.

Tom:thumbsup:


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*more info*

Conductors vs. insulators

Best electrical conductors: silver, copper, gold, aluminum, calcium, beryllium, tungsten

Resistivity and conductivity are reciprocals.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

We don't bother with copper for most resi services. When you have a 4/0 conductor that will almost never see more than 40 amps, what the heck is the point? Commercial and industrial, copper all the way. When you are getting serious loading on conductors, copper is better, hands down. I have seen too many smoke checked aluminum bus bars to think otherwise. The only smoked aluminum bus bars I have seen in residential were ITE from the early 80's. I think they just had a bad batch of aluminum, since we have replaced 6 or so from the same era, when even Murrays and FPE were still cooking right along. It really depends on the occupancy, in my opinion. Real motor loads? Copper. An electric range, some receptacles and lights? Aluminum.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

B4T said:


> This is what you posted.. _"To top it off, you sold people on lies and propaganda!!!"_
> 
> *Saying "copper is better" IS lies and propaganda as proven by mag's inability to explain why it is "better".
> *
> ...



:yawn: .................


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

HARRY304E said:


> It's easy sell the Cadillac job, not the Ugo job.
> 
> 
> Here is my point you go to a customers home look at their service and sell them a new one all top of the line,, sell the job and seal the deal.
> ...



Harry, you don't have to tell me about selling the Cadillac vs the Ugo (Which is actually Yugo but that's another issue :laughing: ) You don't have to tell me about selling at all. I looked at 5 jobs yesterday, 4 sold on the spot, one maybe. I have 9 people waiting for estimates and 11 waiting for me to come see their jobs. May not be much to a big contractor but for a one man show that's about two months of work even if the phone didn't ring once for the next six weeks. 

Just connected with two large resi GC's that I'll be subbing for. For the first time in about three years I'm not nervous about the next six months which isn't going to happen.

Sure, I underbid the $40.00 and hour craigslist guy by 10 bucks an hour. :laughing: :no:


Truck is ready today. Picking up Monday. I need the van today and tomorrow and it will take me a Sunday to empty and take my radio, speakers, amp and sub out.

Here's a preview


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> What gives you the right to judge someone else and say they are a liar and basically a thief for using "propaganda" as a tool to sell a job.. :blink::blink:
> 
> You could of easily said you don't agree with his views.. but instead you decided personal insults was more your style.. :no:
> 
> So you got back what you gave to him in the first place..personal insults :thumbsup:


You are such a two faced guy.

You rag and insult anyone on this forum who you don't agree with but when Scott does it you give him crap about it.

Look in the mirror before throwing stones.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

B4T said:


> Copper is top shelf when it comes to conductors and my customers don't mind paying for it..
> 
> You guys who sell AL.. good for you.. :thumbsup:


If you are selling AL buss panels with CU conductors, that is a second rate job.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

electricmanscott said:


> Here's a preview


That is too cool. :thumbsup:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Peter D said:


> If you are selling AL buss panels with CU conductors, that is a second rate job.


Yeah, it is pretty funny how he use bottom of the line stuff for everything else but suddenly it has to be copper conductors.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

electricmanscott said:


> Harry, you don't have to tell me about selling the Cadillac vs the Ugo (Which is actually Yugo but that's another issue :laughing: ) You don't have to tell me about selling at all. I looked at 5 jobs yesterday, 4 sold on the spot, one maybe. I have 9 people waiting for estimates and 11 waiting for me to come see their jobs. May not be much to a big contractor but for a one man show that's about two months of work even if the phone didn't ring once for the next six weeks.
> 
> Just connected with two large resi GC's that I'll be subbing for. For the first time in about three years I'm not nervous about the next six months which isn't going to happen.
> 
> ...


:laughing::laughing:


Good I'm glad to hear that your busy as hell Keep it going...:thumbup::thumbup:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Going_Commando said:


> We don't bother with copper for most resi services. When you have a 4/0 conductor that will almost never see more than 40 amps, what the heck is the point? Commercial and industrial, copper all the way. When you are getting serious loading on conductors, copper is better, hands down. I have seen too many smoke checked aluminum bus bars to think otherwise. The only smoked aluminum bus bars I have seen in residential were ITE from the early 80's. I think they just had a bad batch of aluminum, since we have replaced 6 or so from the same era, when even Murrays and FPE were still cooking right along. It really depends on the occupancy, in my opinion. Real motor loads? Copper. An electric range, some receptacles and lights? Aluminum.





> Commercial and industrial, copper all the way. When you are getting serious loading on conductors, copper is better, hands down.:laughing:


Stop that, I'm laughing my off..:laughing::laughing::thumbup:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Peter D said:


> If you are selling AL buss panels with CU conductors, that is a second rate job.



AL buss panels..?:blink:

Have a link?


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

HARRY304E said:


> AL buss panels..?:blink:
> 
> Have a link?


What?

There are everywhere.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

BBQ said:


> What?
> 
> There are everywhere.


I dunno maybe i should read the box the panels are coming in..:laughing:


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> AL buss panels..?:blink:
> 
> Have a link?


http://electrical.hardwarestore.com...idential-main-breaker-load-center-679797.aspx

another one of my many "useless" posts......


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Going_Commando said:


> Commercial and industrial, copper all the way.


Why should commercial and industrial clients have their money wasted on copper?


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*Video*



Going_Commando said:


> We don't bother with copper for most resi services. When you have a 4/0 conductor that will almost never see more than 40 amps, what the heck is the point? Commercial and industrial, copper all the way. When you are getting serious loading on conductors, copper is better, hands down. I have seen too many smoke checked aluminum bus bars to think otherwise. The only smoked aluminum bus bars I have seen in residential were ITE from the early 80's. I think they just had a bad batch of aluminum, since we have replaced 6 or so from the same era, when even Murrays and FPE were still cooking right along. It really depends on the occupancy, in my opinion. Real motor loads? Copper. An electric range, some receptacles and lights? Aluminum.


Try watching the video on bottom left. 

http://www.southwire.com/commercial/todaysAluminum.htm


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## Island Electric (May 9, 2011)

I like that CH panel. Actually I always here you talking up CH. I heard you talking about the copper buss. You right copper buss is hard to beat. I decided to check them out and love the built in surge protector.:thumbup: I cant wait to install one. I like the PVC you did. I have not seen work like that since the L.I. Days. The inspectors would not like that PVC here.

I put the CH on my website w/ surge protection. It's bad a$$:thumbup:

EDIT: Do you have any stock #s for single Phase 240V CH 100-200 amp panels? That would be a big help because I ned to get pricing!!!!


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Island Electric said:


> The inspectors would not like that PVC here.


Morons :laughing:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> AL buss panels..?:blink:
> 
> Have a link?


C'mon Harry, you're not that sheltered, are you? :laughing:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Yeah, it is pretty funny how he use bottom of the line stuff for everything else but suddenly it has to be copper conductors.


I would much rather have a CU buss panel with AL conductors than the other way around. I think the money is far better spent on a CU buss panel.


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## Island Electric (May 9, 2011)

*


jza said:



OP, why not use a PVC LR instead of an LB?

Click to expand...

*Don't you mean an "LL"


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Cletis said:


> Try watching the video on bottom left.
> 
> http://www.southwire.com/commercial/todaysAluminum.htm


Thank you! They say information is the key (and it is), so I can now say I have seen the light.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Island Electric said:


> I like that CH panel. Actually I always here you talking up CH. I heard you talking about the copper buss. You right copper buss is hard to beat. I decided to check them out and love the built in surge protector.:thumbup: I cant wait to install one. I like the PVC you did. I have not seen work like that since the L.I. Days. The inspectors would not like that PVC here.
> 
> I put the CH on my website w/ surge protection. It's bad a$$:thumbup:
> 
> EDIT: Do you have any stock #s for single Phase 240V CH 100-200 amp panels? That would be a big help because I ned to get pricing!!!!


Are you asking me? You should e-mail me so I can send you a few PDF files from the line of CHCH products. They have the same information on their website too.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BBQ said:


> You are such a two faced guy.
> 
> You rag and insult anyone on this forum who you don't agree with but when Scott does it you give him crap about it.
> 
> Look in the mirror before throwing stones.


Nothing better than being called "two faced" by a guy with (3) chins.. :laughing:

Since you have this opinion of me.. that I don't agree with.. post an example and I will gladly explain where you are wrong.. :thumbsup:

According to you.. there should be plenty of examples to post..


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> Nothing better than being called "two faced" by a guy with (3) chins.. :laughing:


That would be an example right there of your wiliness to insult others instead of staying on topic.







> Since you have this opinion of me.. that I don't agree with.. post an example and I will gladly explain where you are wrong.. :thumbsup:
> 
> According to you.. there should be plenty of examples to post..


I am not going hunting and to do so would be exactly what the mods do not want.

All the regulars here know that you have at least a couple of double standards.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BBQ said:


> That would be an example right there of your wiliness to insult others instead of staying on topic.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And you are nothing but a big wind bag.. :no:

Let me here if from "all the regulars" since you don't speak for them..

You like taking pot shots and have nothing to back it up... figures..

BTW.. since when are you an "expert" on staying on topic.. :blink::blink:


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Hey break it up you two. 

Btw - LOL at you have two head and three chins lmfao!!!

Sent from your sisters iPhone!


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Magnettica said:


> Hey break it up you two.
> 
> Btw - LOL at you have two head and three chins lmfao!!!
> 
> Sent from your sisters iPhone!


Nice avatar!!!!!:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

B4T said:


> Nothing better than being called "two faced" by a guy with (3) chins.. :laughing:
> 
> Since you have this opinion of me.. that I don't agree with.. post an example and I will gladly explain where you are wrong.. :thumbsup:
> 
> According to you.. there should be plenty of examples to post..


Here's a few to start. :thumbsup:



B4T said:


> You are a loud mouth little asshole I have no use for..
> 
> Go bother somebody else.. :thumbsup:





B4T said:


> GO  YOURSELF..


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> Hey break it up you two.
> 
> Btw - LOL at you have two head and three chins lmfao!!!
> 
> Sent from your sisters iPhone!


I'm done and back on topic.. :thumbsup:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

steelersman said:


> http://electrical.hardwarestore.com...idential-main-breaker-load-center-679797.aspx
> 
> another one of my many "useless" posts......


Thanks. 


This one is much better Solid copper bus bar.....:laughing::thumbup:


http://electrical.hardwarestore.com...0-amp/200-amp-main-breaker-panel--658974.aspx


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> And you are nothing but a big wind bag.. :no:


There is another example of your willinness to just insult.





> Let me here if from "all the regulars" since you don't speak for them..


I don't speak for them, I did not say I did.

All I said is the regulars know you, I don't have to show them anything about you.



> You like taking pot shots and have nothing to back it up... figures..


In my past two posts I have given examples of you being insulting.



> BTW.. since when are you an "expert" on staying on topic.. :blink::blink:


I am not, and again I did not claim to be.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

I am doing a 1000 A commercial service later this week in 600 and 250 kcmil aluminum. The only copper used goes to the ground rods. I'll post before and after pics, and I'll go back in 50 years and get some pics to see if it has melted down.:laughing:


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