# the AFCI fairytale



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

saga continues.....





 
~CS~


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Can we forward a copy to the NFPA , lawyers and claim FRAUD ?


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

This man works _for_ the nfpa Doc

~CS~


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

With all the disproof to this junk, why is the consumer still getting extorted out of $40 each breaker when they prove to be worthless in additional protection.


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

Then what do they do? I thought they prevented forest fires. Thats what the picture on the box says. I've been lied to again?


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

There is big money at stake , someone continues to pay big dollars in the enforcement of this crap.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Shockdoc said:


> With all the disproof to this junk, why is the consumer still getting extorted out of $40 each breaker when they prove to be worthless in additional protection.


 
Because class action suits have been confronted by the powers that be Doc, there has to be a number of _victims_ for it to grow legs.....

further, the CSPC knows all about this, along with lawyers from multiple countries fueling them to bust a move...

~CS~


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

nolabama said:


> Then what do they do? I thought they prevented forest fires. Thats what the picture on the box says. I've been lied to again?


_lol, slices, dices, makes julian friez?_

but seriously, an EC can (by code) sell $1000 of these in a single residence

where, i ask, does the onus of_ liabilty_ rest in the event of an electrical mishap?

~CS~


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

chicken steve said:


> Because class action suits have been confronted by the powers that be Doc, there has to be a number of _victims_ for it to grow legs.....
> 
> further, the CSPC knows all about this, along with lawyers from multiple countries fueling them to bust a move...
> 
> ~CS~


Let me guess, they hinder the benefit of doubt as to "what if they work and save at least one life" excuse ???


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Shockdoc said:


> Let me guess, they hinder the benefit of doubt as to "what if they work and save at least one life" excuse ???


that's what the majority of the trade brownshirts are doing, good guess Doc

no, instead they have a _'philisophical difference'_ in the concept of what would be an arcing connection vs. a glowing connection

i.e.- the majority of bad connection are _FIRST _glowing, and progress to arcing, they achieve incindeary levels glowing, by the time they arc it's way to late

they can't even agree on _this _fundamental you see

never mind that the afci has _never_, and _will never_ achieve the potential of series mitigation , Paschens laws (a century old) aside....

~CS~


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

AFCI is just another bad tasting Kool Aid people are forced to drink under the new communist regime.


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

Shockdoc said:


> AFCI is just another bad tasting Kool Aid people are forced to drink under the new communist regime.


I like Kool Aid.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

*AFCI Inventor Responds *
Mike,
I invented the AFCI circuit breaker in the 1980s and my engineering staff at www.zlan.com advanced its technology in the 90s: (Lee Blanton & Bob Clunn).
Bob Huddleston's 8/01/02 article "AFCI - Why I Have A Problem With It" only scratches the surface of the underlying problems associated with the AFCI. However, our homes and offices desperately need the protection of today's AFCI circuit breaker.
I strongly recommend installing AFCIs in all circuits in the home. Even with all the problems and improvements that are equally desperately needed.
An unadvertised electrical path that Bob may not have tested is the GFI path: Line (hot) to Ground. The AFCI circuit breaker has a pigtail and two connectors because of the pseudo GFI function, not the AFCI function. Of the AFCIs that we tested, all used the GFI path to ground. The GFI reacts when a current of 60 milliamps or larger is detected to ground. This path does not qualify as a GFCI path as it exceeds the body model of 3 to 5 milliamps.However, this GFI path addresses a large percentage of the electrical fires; either a Line (hot) to Ground shorts or after a Line to Neutral shorts that bridges to the ground wire causing a GFI trip.
Try the series arcing test from Line to Ground! The AFCI may also trip Neutral to Ground if the Neutral voltage is elevated.
The fast response of the GFI path is the saving grace of today's AFCI circuit breaker.
----- I strongly urge you not to repeal the use of the AFCI breaker --- this would be a major mistake.
----- I instead encourage expanding its use. I say this knowing of a ton of problems and issues that must be standardized and fixed.
The problems with the present AFCI are a direct reflection of UL, NEMA, and the UL-1699 code.
I know that everyone feels that they have been duped by UL and NEMA, and we have, (Congress needs to fix this issue).
After working with these organizations for several years; I feel a Congressional hearing to remove UL and NEMA from this process is the only way the problems & issues can be resolved.
By misleading us, and not allowing outside inputs & scrutiny, these organizations are a detriment to our safety!
Zlan can demonstrate most of what Bob's testing was hoping to find in the AFCI breakers.
Again in closing, I strongly encourage you not to defeat the AFCI, instead I implore you to expand its use. Its pseudo GFI function will save thousands of lives.
The action that I encourage you to take is:
---- push for a Congressional hearing ---.
Regards,
George Spencer (Inventor) [email protected] [email protected]

Mike Holt's Comment: Sure a line to ground fault will trip the Ground Fault sensor or an AFCI like it would a GFCI. So what is the advantage, except the AFCI won't trip until the ground fault reaches 60 milliamperes. Where a GFCI trips at 5 milliamperes. Given the choice between AFCI and a GFCI, I would chose the GFCI. 
Copyright © 2002 Mike Holt Enterprises,Inc.
1-888-NEC-CODE (1-888-632-2633)

http://www.mikeholt.com/mojonewsarchive/AFCI-HTML/HTML/AFCI_Inventor_Responds~20020814.htm

~CS~


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

What did you do? Hack Mike Holt's email?


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

for those who follow the history closley enough , here's the wayback machine prequil...>

http://www.cpsc.gov/library/foia/meetings/mtg98/afci1.pdf
~CS~


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

NolaTigaBait said:


> What did you do? Hack Mike Holt's email?


no & everything i've posted is public knowledge

~CS~


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

chicken steve said:


> no & everything i've posted is public knowledge
> 
> ~CS~


Don't lie.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

NolaTigaBait said:


> Don't lie.


tell it to CMP-2 

~CS~


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

George Spencer, soley responsible for destroying our trade over a cockamaimy concoction he invented and paid off to use. 

George Spencer #1 Award in being a D!ckhead.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

George actually thried to muster something of a suit , and was summarily shut down & silenced Doc

~CS~


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## JohnR (Apr 12, 2010)

So we have the inventor (guy who gets royalties) saying expand the usage. Great, if I invented something and turned into a cash cow I would want everyone to keep using it too. His appeal does not impress me, sorry.:no:

If he had detailed the problems, and said what nema, etc. was limiting it to do, then maybe I would accept that.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

JohnR said:


> So we have the inventor (guy who gets royalties) saying expand the usage. Great, if I invented something and turned into a cash cow I would want everyone to keep using it too. His appeal does not impress me, sorry.:no:
> 
> If he had detailed the problems, and said what nema, etc. was limiting it to do, then maybe I would accept that.


actually, _he did_ John, being George was afraid of some class action aimed his way

over a decade later, one of the key people involved in the creation of acfi technology completely eviserates them in detail

yet they remain the 800Lb Gorilla in our trades living room.....:no:

~CS~


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## Amish Electrician (Jan 2, 2010)

Let's can the guessing and innuendo!

George Spencer does NOT get royalties from his invention. UL would not list ANY 'afci' unless the technology was in the public domain. UL is a stickler on this point- they won't let the UL mark become party to a patent issue or help create a monopoly for a product.

So, the AFCI patents were donated by Mr. Spencer. Anyone can use them, without restriction. At worst, there is a token $1 lifetime 'license' charge, much as is done with Phillips screwdrivers.

Mr. Spencer has not addressed the assertion that Paschen's Law says an AFCI simply cannot work at household voltages with copper wire.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Amish Electrician said:


> Let's can the guessing and innuendo!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

I seem to remember that when they were first about to come to market, arc fault protection was going to only be at the receptacle. It was for monitoring and protecting the HO from old lamp cords and such behind beds and couches. This was due to them being bent and crushed for years and never being checked or changed.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Good to see the NEC does their research before ramming these articles down our throats...

The next thing will be NM sleeved in conduit on the outside of a house is perfectly fine and will not melt like a sugar cube in a "wet location".. :no:


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## niteshift (Nov 21, 2007)

Wirenuting said:


> I seem to remember that when they were first about to come to market, arc fault protection was going to only be at the receptacle. It was for monitoring and protecting the HO from old lamp cords and such behind beds and couches. This was due to them being bent and crushed for years and never being checked or changed.


Also for the ones who run the ext. cords under the rugs/carpets.


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

Gee line to ground short trips most breakers. :no::whistling2::jester:


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

I liken these things to GFCI receptacles when they first came out. Overpriced, flawed, and too sensitive. They were a giant PITA.
When they came out, a wet fart would trip them things.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

yeah, the old timers will tell you they had a bit of a go 'round with the gfci's

they had to weed the bugs out......yet the electrical _theory_ was sound

compared to afci's, where their is no _solid _electrical theory

thus the thread title....~CS~


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

~CS~ Everyone loves a good conspiracy or controversy.:laughing:


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Chris1971 said:


> ~CS~ Everyone loves a good conspiracy or controversy.:laughing:


especially true of consumer fraud Chris.....:whistling2:~CS~


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

chicken steve said:


> yeah, the old timers will tell you they had a bit of a go 'round with the gfci's
> 
> they had to weed the bugs out......yet the electrical theory was sound
> 
> ...


The theory was that they would sense the the minor short in the old cracked lamp cord that could cause a fire before the breaker would trip. 

Now add to that the "For the children" concept and you now have mandated breakers. Sounds good to me. Didn't you buy the company stock when it was ramping up?


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Wirenuting said:


> The theory was that they would sense the the minor short in the old cracked lamp cord that could cause a fire before the breaker would trip.
> 
> Now add to that the "For the children" concept and you now have mandated breakers. Sounds good to me. Didn't you buy the company stock when it was ramping up?


the fundamentals of electrical fires have systematically been coerced WN

for instance, it is a glowing connection that will exist in the majority of cases , to do the damage , before an arc exists

now when it does degrade to an arc, it is usually the series arc that exists, the parrallel arc may or may not occur , but will only do so as the series arc degrades into it

without getting into the specifics of J Engle's disertation, this is the whole afci issue in a nutshell

they only have an American market btw, what does that tell you when the rest of the electrical world turns them down?

~CS~


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

chicken steve said:


> saga continues.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Why was he wearing gloves and a sheald??:laughing::laughing:


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

HARRY304E said:


> Why was he wearing gloves and a sheald??:laughing::laughing:


Because you wired that one?:laughing::laughing:


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

So, people here complaining about AFCI breakers must be the ones where they are just starting to require them. :laughing:


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## Amish Electrician (Jan 2, 2010)

CS, I think you owe Dave Dini an apology. 

Defected? Really? If you're implying that he is acting against the interests of UL, and that his opinions are for sale to the highest bidder .... that's an accusation that needs to either go to trial or to go away. 

I know Dave, and he is an honorable man. I don't agree with him often, and don't really much like him .... but he's a dedicated, loyal 'corporate' type who has worked hard to get where he is. 

Just because someone disagrees with you, or you lose an election, it does not mean they are all in league with the devil.

- Those with memories will recall that I've never been a fan of AFCI's.

- The AFCI issue has almost become like the 'legalise pot' issue, in that it's getting harder to have an honest discussion. In many cases it seems we're arguing religion, rather than facts.

Personally, the first step ought to be to demonstrate that yes, you can create and maintain an arc between two bits of copper wire at household voltages. We are told that Paschens' Law says you can't do that. The AFCI claimes to detect such arcs. Well ... do the arcs exist or not?


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

chicken steve said:


> they only have an American market btw, what does that tell you when the rest of the electrical world turns them down?
> 
> ~CS~


It tells me that only we care about the children and that a great concept may have gotten off at the first exit.

I don't have to deal with AFI's and for that I feel lucky. But from reading the threads here I come to think that AFI breakers work when paired with a new circuit. They fail or trip unreliable when used in old work or are installed improperly. 
Am I correct in this assumption?


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Amish Electrician said:


> > CS, I think you owe Dave Dini an apology.
> 
> 
> meet you 1/2 way Amish, will forward an appology if he shows up @ ET, and defends UL 1699 against Joe Engle's paper, k?
> ...


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

I was over at MH this morning and there was a AFCI thread running... I was going to post the Youtube video.. but they don't allow them over there.. :blink::blink:


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

B4T said:


> I was over at MH this morning and there was a AFCI thread running... I was going to post the Youtube video.. but they don't allow them over there.. :blink::blink:


You could visit xxxxxxxxx they would welcome you there. If you joined, you'd double the membership over there.:no::no:


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

B4T said:


> I was over at MH this morning and there was a AFCI thread running... I was going to post the Youtube video.. but they don't allow them over there.. :blink::blink:


even by an nfpa engineer.....:whistling2:~CS~


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

chicken steve said:


> saga continues.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I need that breaker then. My SqD unit trips if I turn on a plug strip. (POS)


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