# Service upgrade pictures



## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

200amps Seiman's manual transfer switch


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## denny3992 (Jul 12, 2010)

Whats the price on one, never seen one of those... Just always used interlocks


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Not sure about the neutrals on that left side bar.


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## daveEM (Nov 18, 2012)

electricmanscott said:


> Not sure about the neutrals on that left side bar.


And the grounds on the right side bar.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

daveEM said:


> And the grounds on the right side bar.


Those are fine since the bars are bonded to each other. Just not sure about the left bar used as a "neutral bar" the way that they're bonded together. The green screw is really the only connection.


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## FrunkSlammer (Aug 31, 2013)

Grounds on the right side are fine (IMO).. but I kind of think the neutrals on the left should go to the right bar as well. 

I don't like the idea of having to use the metal of the panel tub to complete the circuit for the neutral. Fine for ground. But that's just my personal opinion. It's electrically the same point, left or right bar.


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

denny3992 said:


> whats the price on one, never seen one of those... Just always used interlocks


$385


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## SparkyDino (Sep 23, 2013)

I install Siemens, but never did this panel yet.

I would have brought the ground thru the bottom of the enclosure.

I like pictures :thumbsup:


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## Johnsongrimes (Oct 27, 2013)

electricmanscott said:


> Those are fine since the bars are bonded to each other. Just not sure about the left bar used as a "neutral bar" the way that their bonded together. The green screw is really the only connection.


There is no green screw like a typical panel. The back panel isn't being used.

If you look you can see a bus bar connecting the ground bar to the neutral bar. There is a little copper finger that goes into the neutral bar that serves as the main bonding jumper instead of the typical green screw.

This is spelled out in the NEC. You could also use a #4 cu conductor if the panel used the typical green screw.


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## Johnsongrimes (Oct 27, 2013)

If this was a typical green screw installation, then the GEC shouldn't be landed on the ground bar either.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

electricmanscott said:


> Not sure about the neutrals on that left side bar.


It makes no difference.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

HARRY304E said:


> It makes no difference.


The way he has it set up it is a violtion. 

The steel of the enclsure cannot be used as a current carrying conductor.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

I don't get it. where's the generator feed ? where's the interlock ?


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Johnsongrimes said:


> There is no green screw like a typical panel. The back panel isn't being used.
> 
> If you look you can see a bus bar connecting the ground bar to the neutral bar. There is a little copper finger that goes into the neutral bar that serves as the main bonding jumper instead of the typical green screw.
> 
> This is spelled out in the NEC. You could also use a #4 cu conductor if the panel used the typical green screw.


What connects that copper finger?


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

BBQ said:


> The way he has it set up it is a violtion.
> 
> The steel of the enclsure cannot be used as a current carrying conductor.


Look again, the steel of the enclosure is not being used as a CCC.


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

electricmanscott said:


> What connects that copper finger?


There is a bonding bar, silver is color, from the neutral bar to the grounding bar.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

```

```



Roger123 said:


> There is a bonding bar, silver is color, from the neutral bar to the grounding bar.


That's only partially true.


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

wildleg said:


> I don't get it. where's the generator feed ? where's the interlock ?


The genny feed and the interlock is in the middle of the panel.


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

electricmanscott said:


> ```
> 
> ```
> That's only partially true.


????


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

wildleg said:


> I don't get it. where's the generator feed ? where's the interlock ?


http://www.hqs.sbt.siemens.com/gip/...SIILV/3R GenReady RPFL-GENER-0609_low res.pdf


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Roger123 said:


> There is a bonding bar, silver is color, from the neutral bar to the grounding bar.


If I was inspecting this I would fail it based on page four of this PDF http://w3.usa.siemens.com/us/intern...l/Residential/LoadCenters/RPFL-GENER-0609.pdf that identifies the bar on the left as the grounding bar and the bar on the right as the neutral bar. 

I bet the label on the cover says the same thing.


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

BBQ said:


> The way he has it set up it is a violtion.
> 
> 
> 
> The steel of the enclsure cannot be used as a current carrying conductor.


:no:





Roger123 said:


> Look again, the steel of the enclosure is not being used as a CCC.


:yes:



electricmanscott said:


> That's only partially true.


No it's fully true!

The can is not being used to carry the neutral current.

Roger already said it, the bar from the neutral bus to the ground bus makes both buses the same.

The copper finger is the bonding jumper from can to the neutral bus.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Little-Lectric said:


> :yes:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I see the bar.

I would still fail it based on the instructions and labeling.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Little-Lectric said:


> :no:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You twisted my words by taking a statement I made in response to a post and applying it to something you wanted it to apply too ( a different post) Not cool dude.



Roger123 said:


> There is a bonding bar, silver is color, from the neutral bar to the grounding bar.





electricmanscott said:


> ```
> 
> ```
> That's only partially true.


THIS is where I said this and it is 100 percent factually correct.


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

BBQ said:


> I see the bar.
> 
> I would still fail it based on the instructions and labeling.


How do you know what the listing/labeling is?

What is the bar for?

It's not the bonding jumper, the copper finger is.

Only thing I ever saw in the instructions on some panels say not to remove the bar because of stability. Not all say that though.


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## diamond dave (Feb 13, 2011)

BBQ said:


> The way he has it set up it is a violtion.
> 
> The steel of the enclsure cannot be used as a current carrying conductor.


A know it all that's wrong again


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Roger123 said:


> There is a bonding bar, silver is color, from the neutral bar to the grounding bar.





electricmanscott said:


> ```
> 
> ```
> That's only partially true.



I have a hard time believing that that GREEN SCREW is there to carry neutral current.

See this....


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Little-Lectric said:


> How do you know what the listing/labeling is?


I looked it up and posted the link to it. 



> What is the bar for?


Don't know and I don't care.


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

Roger123 said:


> There is a bonding bar, silver is color, from the neutral bar to the grounding bar.





electricmanscott said:


> That's only partially true.





electricmanscott said:


> You twisted my words by taking a statement I made in response to a post and applying it to something you wanted it to apply too ( a different post) Not cool dude.


No I didn't twist your words. See above!
I was responding to you saying the part about the bar not being fully true!


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

Thanks. That's really nice. I quit making pretty panels a few years ago. No one appreciates them. If they do they nit pick em.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

electricmanscott said:


> I have a hard time believing that that GREEN SCREW is there to carry neutral current.
> 
> See this....


As do I.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Little-Lectric said:


> No I didn't twist your words. See above!
> I was responding to you saying the part about the bar not being fully true!


Yeah, but that's not what you quoted.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

nolabama said:


> Thanks. That's really nice. I quit making pretty panels a few years ago. No one appreciates them. If they do they nit pick em.


Are you drunk?:laughing:


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

No. I don't drink. I only read the OP and posted that. Lol. I didn't know you guys were blasting it to bits.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

nolabama said:


> No. I don't drink. I only read the OP and posted that. Lol. I didn't know you guys were blasting it to bits.


Are you drunk? :laughing:


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

BBQ said:


> I looked it up and posted the link to it.
> 
> 
> 
> Don't know and I don't care.


You must have posted that while I was posting as I didn't see that.

Also, the pic Roger posted looks like the bar goes all the way from bus/bus.
But the cut sheet doesn't show it that way.


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

BBQ said:


> If I was inspecting this I would fail it based on page four of this PDF http://w3.usa.siemens.com/us/intern...l/Residential/LoadCenters/RPFL-GENER-0609.pdf that identifies the bar on the left as the grounding bar and the bar on the right as the neutral bar.


And that is true, because the bonding stab in the drawing is not connected. So, you would be wrong again!!! Because if you look again at the pictured install you would see it is connected.


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

It's still a pretty panel.


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

Little-Lectric said:


> You must have posted that while I was posting as I didn't see that.
> 
> Also, the pic Roger posted looks like the bar goes all the way from bus/bus.
> But the cut sheet doesn't show it that way.


It does go all the way from bus to bus.


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

nolabama said:


> It's still a pretty panel.


Thank you!


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

electricmanscott said:


> Yeah, but that's not what you quoted.


Yes it was, go back and read r e a l slow!:laughing:


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Roger123 said:


> It does go all the way from bus to bus.


No it doesn't. What the hell??


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Little-Lectric said:


> Yes it was, go back and read r e a l slow!:laughing:


Hold on..


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

electricmanscott said:


> No it doesn't. What the hell??



Yes it does!!


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

Roger123 said:


> It does go all the way from bus to bus.


I wanted to be on your side, sorry!
I did go back and look at your pic and it is just like the cut sheet. It stops just shy of the bus and the finger/mounting screw is the only thing connecting the bar to the bus.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Little-Lectric said:


> Yes it was, go back and read r e a l slow!:laughing:


Let me read it to YOU reallly slowlyyyy :laughing:


_This_ is what I replied to with saying it's only partially true. And it's fact.



Roger123 said:


> There is a bonding bar, silver is color, from the neutral bar to the grounding bar.





electricmanscott said:


> ```
> 
> ```
> That's only partially true.


This is what you applied my quote to in error



Roger123 said:


> Look again, the steel of the enclosure is not being used as a CCC.


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## pete87 (Oct 22, 2012)

I like it . Tin Plated Cooper Bus .







Pete


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Roger123 said:


> Yes it does!!


NO it doesn't no matter how many times you say it does look at the picture.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Roger123 said:


> And that is true, because the bonding stab in the drawing is not connected. So, you would be wrong again!!! Because if you look again at the pictured install you would see it is connected.


Connected, not connected it does not matter.

The instructions I posted clearly identify the function of each bar. 

You have neutrals landed on the ground bar.


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

I would assume the bar being used as a neutral to be the neutral due to the larger lug for the neutral conductor. I did not read the instructions. Nor would I have. If that copper L is under the neutral bar then it's bonded. It is a clean , pretty, legal install.


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## PULLEDPORK (Oct 27, 2013)

BBQ said:


> Connected, not connected it does not matter.
> 
> The instructions I posted clearly identify the function of each bar.
> 
> You have neutrals landed on the ground bar.


But there is more to it than that.

Take a look at this panel label:

http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/pdfImages/d1/d16ccf12-d57c-4324-8634-118846ea993e.pdf

On the right side you can see how it labels both bars neutral when the jumper is connected. This is standard in Murray/Siemens panels.



electricmanscott said:


> What connects that copper finger?


A screw holds them together tightly making a good connection. That is different than using the screw itself as the only thing for the current to flow thru like in a typical panel.


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

I install it. You guys are just looking at a picture. The bonding bar connects both bar together when the bonding stab is connected to the neutral bar. It goes under the phase bus bars.


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## PULLEDPORK (Oct 27, 2013)

I had this issue with an inspector and everyone here said it was OK, starting at post #6:

http://www.electriciantalk.com/f5/gec-ground-bar-57164/

Anyway, I'm out before I get banned :thumbup::laughing:


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

I also would assume the bar that is isolated by plastic and has the L lug at it to be the neutral due to it being able to be isolated from the can. If the instructions say otherwise they are to be considered wrong in this situation.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

PULLEDPORK said:


> But there is more to it than that.
> 
> Take a look at this panel label:
> 
> ...


That's great, but does not apply to the panel on the picture. :laughing:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Roger123 said:


> I install it. You guys are just looking at a picture. The bonding bar connects both bar together when the bonding stab is connected to the neutral bar. It goes under the phase bus bars.


Do the instructions call the bar on the left a ground bar or a neutral bar?

It's a red tag from me ... If I was an inspector.


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## PULLEDPORK (Oct 27, 2013)

BBQ said:


> That's great, but does not apply to the panel on the picture. :laughing:


As I said, it's the same on the panel in the OP. If the OP takes a picture of the panel label it will show the same thing. 

You know this, but you are too far into it to reverse yourself and admit you are wrong.


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

I bet you would keep a pocket full of red tags if you were an inspector!:laughing:

Edit: Hey I was quoting BBQ but it didn't show the quote!


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## PULLEDPORK (Oct 27, 2013)

Here you go Bob, fail this: http://w3.usa.siemens.com/us/SiteCo.../Internet/Products/G3042B1200GENS_4099338.pdf


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

PULLEDPORK said:


> As I said, it's the same on the panel in the OP. If the OP takes a picture of the panel label it will show the same thing.
> 
> You know this, but you are too far into it to reverse yourself and admit you are wrong.


Yes, it is label as you said. Unfortunately I did not take a picture of the listing. And you are right bbq is just being his usually asshole.


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## PULLEDPORK (Oct 27, 2013)

As I said from the first page in this thread, it's the same way in all Murray and Siemens panels:

"TO BOND NEUTRAL TO ENCLOSURE: (1) REMOVE SCREW SECURING BOND STRAP. (2) INSERT ROUND END OF BOND 
STRAP INTO LARGE HOLE OF NEUTRAL IN LINE WITH BOND STRAP MOUNTING HOLE. (3) REASSEMBLE BOND STRAP TO 
ENCLOSURE WITH SCREW PROVIDED. TIGHTEN TO 25 LB-IN. (4) TIGHTEN CONNECTOR SET SCREW ON ROUND END OF 
BOND STRAP TO 45 LB-IN. *WITH NEUTRAL BONDED, LEFT BAR BECOMES SPLIT NEUTRAL*."


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## diamond dave (Feb 13, 2011)

BBQ said:


> Connected, not connected it does not matter.
> 
> The instructions I posted clearly identify the function of each bar.
> 
> You have neutrals landed on the ground bar.


Epic failure on your part. Live to lose another battle.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

PULLEDPORK said:


> As I said, it's the same on the panel in the OP. If the OP takes a picture of the panel label it will show the same thing.
> 
> You know this, but you are too far into it to reverse yourself and admit you are wrong.


It is not the same as the OPs panel Hack, I posted the instructions for the OPs panel.:laughing:


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## 3xdad (Jan 25, 2011)

Oh, it's on now.......popcorn.


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## PULLEDPORK (Oct 27, 2013)

BBQ said:


> It is not the same as the OPs panel Hack, I posted the instructions for the OPs panel.:laughing:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Roger123 said:


> Yes, it is label as you said. Unfortunately I did not take a picture of the listing. And you are right bbq is just being his usually asshole.


:laughing:

You are calling me an asshole for showing you that you screwed up.

I am fine with that. :thumbsup:


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## PULLEDPORK (Oct 27, 2013)

BBQ said:


> :laughing:
> 
> You are calling me an asshole for showing you that you screwed up.
> 
> I am fine with that. :thumbsup:


Where did he screw up???


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

I wish I had that little waving smiley.


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## PULLEDPORK (Oct 27, 2013)

macmikeman said:


> I wish I had that little waving smiley.


Hi Mikey


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

It's still a pretty panel.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Hi buddy, how ya doin?


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Here is a screen shot of the instructions from the manufacturer for that panel.

Argue with them. :thumbsup:


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## PULLEDPORK (Oct 27, 2013)

BBQ said:


> Here is a screen shot of the instructions from the manufacturer for that panel.
> 
> Argue with them. :thumbsup:


Damn you are stubborn when it comes to you being wrong.

I posted the *label* to the panel in the OP (the exact model) in post #59 and cited what it said on it in post #61.

It's irrefutable proof that you are incorrect. Give it up already dude.


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

nolabama said:


> It's still a pretty panel.


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

PULLEDPORK said:


> Damn you are stubborn when it comes to you being wrong.
> 
> I posted the *label* to the panel in the OP (the exact model) in post #59 and cited what it said on it in post #61.
> 
> It's irrefutable proof that you are incorrect. Give it up already dude.


Pulledpork, save some frustration, just ignore him.


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## diamond dave (Feb 13, 2011)

BBQ said:


> Connected, not connected it does not matter.
> 
> The instructions I posted clearly identify the function of each bar.
> 
> You have neutrals landed on the ground bar.


Open your eyes. The meter shows it being in contact with the earth. It's bonded at the meter and thats why it's showing it not bonded in the panel and being deignated in that manner. 
thats not water ripples it's trying to indicate.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

PULLEDPORK said:


> As I said from the first page in this thread, it's the same way in all Murray and Siemens panels:
> 
> "TO BOND NEUTRAL TO ENCLOSURE: (1) REMOVE SCREW SECURING BOND STRAP. (2) INSERT ROUND END OF BOND
> STRAP INTO LARGE HOLE OF NEUTRAL IN LINE WITH BOND STRAP MOUNTING HOLE. (3) REASSEMBLE BOND STRAP TO
> ...


Where did you find this?


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## PULLEDPORK (Oct 27, 2013)

electricmanscott said:


> Where did you find this?


On the label of the panel that the OP installed. I posted a PDF of it in post #59.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

diamond dave said:


> Open your eyes. The meter shows it being in contact with the earth. It's bonded at the meter and thats why it's showing it not bonded in the panel and being deignated in that manner.
> thats not water ripples it's trying to indicate.


What the hell are you talking about? :laughing:


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## PULLEDPORK (Oct 27, 2013)

You could also see in the diagram how both are labeled neutral.


http://w3.usa.siemens.com/us/SiteCo.../Internet/Products/G3042B1200GENS_4099338.pdf


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

PULLEDPORK said:


> On the label of the panel that the OP installed. I posted a PDF of it in post #59.


Just found it. Looks like the question is answered and the OP is good to go.


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## PULLEDPORK (Oct 27, 2013)

BBQ said:


> What the hell are you talking about? :laughing:


I don't know who it is, but he registered just for you (take a look at his post history :laughing.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

PULLEDPORK said:


> Damn you are stubborn when it comes to you being wrong.
> 
> I posted the *label* to the panel in the OP (the exact model) in post #59 and cited what it said on it in post #61.
> 
> It's irrefutable proof that you are incorrect. Give it up already dude.


You posted the label for the panel in post 59, got it.

Now show me where the label for that panel says what you are claiming it says in post 61.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

electricmanscott said:


> Just found it. Looks like the question is answered and the OP is good to go.


Where is it, I am not finding it?


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## PULLEDPORK (Oct 27, 2013)

BBQ said:


> You posted the label for the panel in post 59, got it.
> 
> Now show me where the label for that panel says what you are claiming it says in post 61.


Read the fuc*king thing.

Damnit.

How could you miss it?

Also look at the diagram.


OP, FWIW, that panel is expensive. You are better off spending $100 for a 30 space Siemens and $50 for the matching interlock. Half price and it will give you the option of energizing all the circuits instead of half of them. Just my opinion.


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

PULLEDPORK said:


> Read the fuc*king thing.
> 
> Damnit.
> 
> ...


This was a service upgrade and transfer switch job. Needed a need panel anyhow. 100 to 200amp upgrade. It is in post #1


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

BBQ said:


> I see the bar.
> 
> I would still fail it based on the instructions and labeling.


Where are the instructions?


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

PULLEDPORK said:


> Read the fuc*king thing.
> 
> Damnit.
> 
> How could you miss it?


Thanks for the help d!ck.

I don't see it, obviously you see it Scott sees it, so give me a hint.



> Also look at the diagram.


Look at the diagram I posted and it says different doesn't it?

But whatever, I trust Scott not to steer me wrong so I will say it now loud and clear.


_*I was wrong.*_​


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

HARRY304E said:


> Where are the instructions?


You are a day late and a dollar short.


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

Who reads residential panel instructions? I mean really who?


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## PULLEDPORK (Oct 27, 2013)

Roger123 said:


> This was a service upgrade and transfer switch job. Needed a need panel anyhow. 100 to 200amp upgrade. It is in post #1


What I am saying is I would have just put in a new 200A panel for $100 and used an interlock for $50. It would have cost less than half as much and give greater ability. Just a suggestion.


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## FrunkSlammer (Aug 31, 2013)

BBQ said:


> _*I'm usually wrong.*_​


fify :thumbsup:


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

This seems to answer the question in my mind.




PULLEDPORK said:


> As I said from the first page in this thread, it's the same way in all Murray and Siemens panels:
> 
> "TO BOND NEUTRAL TO ENCLOSURE: (1) REMOVE SCREW SECURING BOND STRAP. (2) INSERT ROUND END OF BOND
> STRAP INTO LARGE HOLE OF NEUTRAL IN LINE WITH BOND STRAP MOUNTING HOLE. (3) REASSEMBLE BOND STRAP TO
> ...


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## PULLEDPORK (Oct 27, 2013)

BBQ said:


> Thanks for the help d!ck.
> 
> I don't see it, obviously you see it Scott sees it, so give me a hint.


 It's on the left with the other paragraphs of text. About halfway down.



> Look at the diagram I posted and it says different doesn't it?


 But that is meaningless. The diagram you posted is of an automatic transfer switch panel, not a manual switch panel like the OP installed. Further, there is a LOT of information missing from those instruction, such as what breakers you can use in the panel. Continuing your logic, you would fail that installation because he put breakers into it...?

In reality, we know that information may come from multiple sources, such as the label on the panel :whistling2:

I ain't mad at you buddy, we're still on the road to becoming bestie's.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

electricmanscott said:


> This seems to answer the question in my mind.


It does to me as well, if that comes from the OPs panel and not just a random Murray panel.


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

PULLEDPORK said:


> What I am saying is I would have just put in a new 200A panel for $100 and used an interlock for $50. It would have cost less than half as much and give greater ability. Just a suggestion.


OK, see what you are saying, but this customer is considering an automatic switch in the future. So I decided this install this panel. ATS plugs in the middle of the panel.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

FrunkSlammer said:


> I am a pot stirring douche bag.


Fixed it for you. :thumbsup:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

PULLEDPORK said:


> Here you go Bob, fail this: http://w3.usa.siemens.com/us/SiteCo.../Internet/Products/G3042B1200GENS_4099338.pdf


Good one ..:laughing:


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## FrunkSlammer (Aug 31, 2013)

bbq got his pork pulled!


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## PULLEDPORK (Oct 27, 2013)

BBQ, even if Siemens was to only label it a ground bar, the code says that you could use it as a neutral bar if it's connected with a busbar or conductor #4 or larger, right? I really don't want to open my codebook today.


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## diamond dave (Feb 13, 2011)

BBQ said:


> Thanks for the help d!ck.
> 
> I don't see it, obviously you see it Scott sees it, so give me a hint.
> 
> ...


vV 
Victory is ours. Game-set-match.


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## PULLEDPORK (Oct 27, 2013)

diamond dave said:


> vV
> Victory is ours. Game-set-match.


Who the fu*k is you?


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

PULLEDPORK said:


> But that is meaningless. The diagram you posted is of an automatic transfer switch panel, not a manual switch panel like the OP installed.


Actually if you followed my link you would see it is for both.




> Further, there is a LOT of information missing from those instruction, such as what breakers you can use in the panel. *Continuing your logic, you would fail that installation because he put breakers into it...?
> *


Hardly. 



> In reality, we know that information may come from multiple sources, such as the label on the panel :whistling2:


It can, and IMO the info on the actual panel label trumps all other info.




> I ain't mad at you buddy, we're still on the road to becoming bestie's.


Might be a goal for you, me .... Not so much.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

PULLEDPORK said:


> BBQ, even if Siemens was to only label it a ground bar, the code says that you could use it as a neutral bar if it's connected with a busbar or conductor #4 or larger, right? I really don't want to open my codebook today.


No, you still would have to follow the instructions as required by 110.3(B).


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

FrunkSlammer said:


> bbq got his pork pulled!


:laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## PULLEDPORK (Oct 27, 2013)

BBQ said:


> No, you still would have to follow the instructions as required by 110.3(B).


The instructions don't say not to land a neutral there. It just labels it a ground bar, and the code says there are times you can land a neutral on the ground bar. 

If the instructions say "nail holes" does that mean you can't use screws?


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## SparkyDino (Sep 23, 2013)

this is all so f*cking confusing........

I should have listened to dad & just been a drunk painter or plumber


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## diamond dave (Feb 13, 2011)

BBQ said:


> No, you still would have to follow the instructions as required by 110.3(B).


Ooops. He took his "sorry i was wrong" back.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

PULLEDPORK said:


> The instructions don't say not to land a neutral there. It just labels it a ground bar, and the code says there are times you can land a neutral on the ground bar.




If it is not listed as a neutral bar you can't land neutrals in it. 




> If the instructions say "nail holes" does that mean you can't use screws?


Sadly yes.

That would be up to the inspector and they would be within the NEC to fail you for it based on 110.3(B).


Understand that ULs postion is that you must use the cheap hardware and wire nuts that come with a fixture. Mark Ode of UL has written articles about it.

Luckily inspectors can chose to accept it anyway.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

diamond dave said:


> Ooops. He took his "sorry i was wrong" back.


You know what makes me smile?


That someone's life is so boring that they sign up to a forum just to bust my balls. :thumbsup:


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

I can't stand ty-raps in a panel.


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## FrunkSlammer (Aug 31, 2013)

The *B*ig *B*eautiful *Q*ueen will never stop being right, no matter what facts you bring to the table.


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## PULLEDPORK (Oct 27, 2013)

FrunkSlammer said:


> The *B*ig *B*eautiful *Q*ueen will never stop being right, no matter what facts you bring to the table.


He was wrong about the specific panel in the OP and admitted to it. But the other stuff after it he's probably right because the code and UL is very gay and stupid and I don't like it.


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## diamond dave (Feb 13, 2011)

BBQ said:


> You know what makes me smile?
> 
> 
> That someone's life is so boring that they sign up to a forum just to bust my balls. :thumbsup:


Just pointing out the obvious.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

BBQ said:


> You know what makes me smile?
> 
> 
> That someone's life is so boring that they sign up to a forum just to bust my balls. :thumbsup:


You know of course I have been thinking the same thing for about forty thousand posts now.......:laughing:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

FrunkSlammer said:


> The *B*ig *B*eautiful *Q*ueen will never stop being right, no matter what facts you bring to the table.


As I said you are just a pot stirring douche bag looking to start crap.


I used the largest font in bold to say it but I guess you missed that. So I will help you out.

I was wrong about the OPs panel, I was wrong about the OPs panel, I was wrong about the OPs panel, I was wrong about the OPs panel, I was wrong about the OPs panel, I was wrong about the OPs panel, I was wrong about the OPs panel, I was wrong about the OPs panel, I was wrong about the OPs panel, I was wrong about the OPs panel, I was wrong about the OPs panel, I was wrong about the OPs panel, I was wrong about the OPs panel, I was wrong about the OPs panel, I was wrong about the OPs panel, I was wrong about the OPs panel, I was wrong about the OPs panel, I was wrong about the OPs panel, I was wrong about the OPs panel, I was wrong about the OPs panel, I was wrong about the OPs panel, I was wrong about the OPs panel, I was wrong about the OPs panel, I was wrong about the OPs panel, I was wrong about the OPs panel, I was wrong about the OPs panel, I was wrong about the OPs panel, I was wrong about the OPs panel, I was wrong about the OPs panel, I was wrong about the OPs panel, I was wrong about the OPs panel, I was wrong about the OPs panel, I was wrong about the OPs panel, I was wrong about the OPs panel, I was wrong about the OPs panel, I was wrong about the OPs panel.

Got it?


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

diamond dave said:


> Just pointing out the obvious.


As was I. :whistling2:


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## PULLEDPORK (Oct 27, 2013)

BBQ said:


> Might be a goal for you, me .... Not so much.


I'm not too happy about this...


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## SparkyDino (Sep 23, 2013)

this is slowly becoming my favorite thread for some sick reason.

I may need to start drinking again

post more pictures, and then I'll make up my mind.

I like pictures:thumbsup:


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

I am sad to report that the forum software will not allow me to quote BBQ saying "I was wrong" in 7 font for my new signature line. It would have been truly fitting.....


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

BBQ is clearly trolling as everyone knows he is never wrong.


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

SparkyDino said:


> this is slowly becoming my favorite thread for some sick reason. I may need to start drinking again post more pictures, and then I'll make up my mind. I like pictures:thumbsup:


Okay here's another picture. Does the patina on the conductor help protect the conductor from deterioration?


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## SparkyDino (Sep 23, 2013)

Roger123 said:


> Okay here's another picture. Does the patina on the conductor help protect the conductor from deterioration?


if this is a trick question, I'll bite & be wrong with any answer.

so I will just ask if this tarnish protects or not. it comes "from" deterioration, then does it protect too from further deterioration? does the rust stop rusting? I've had P*ssy protect me from other p*ssy before.....so I know the cause can be the protective also.......depending what we are talking about

I know patina on the "american pickers" makes stuff worth more money lmao


thank you for the picture:thumbsup:


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Roger123 said:


> Okay here's another picture. Does the patina on the conductor help protect the conductor from deterioration?


 
Not sure what your referring to. BTW, looks like POCO is thinking about upgrading the primary voltage in the area down the road:whistling2:


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

Little-Lectric said:


> I wanted to be on your side, sorry!
> I did go back and look at your pic and it is just like the cut sheet. It stops just shy of the bus and the finger/mounting screw is the only thing connecting the bar to the bus.





PULLEDPORK said:


> As I said from the first page in this thread, it's the same way in all Murray and Siemens panels:
> 
> "TO BOND NEUTRAL TO ENCLOSURE: (1) REMOVE SCREW SECURING BOND STRAP. (2) INSERT ROUND END OF BOND
> STRAP INTO LARGE HOLE OF NEUTRAL IN LINE WITH BOND STRAP MOUNTING HOLE. (3) REASSEMBLE BOND STRAP TO
> ...



I was half right but also half wrong
If I was Chicken Steve I would write a song!:thumbup:


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

Little-Lectric said:


> I was half right but also half wrong
> If I was Chicken Steve I would write a song!:thumbup:


Man, you really hurt my feelings!


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

WTF? :blink: :001_huh:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> WTF? :blink: :001_huh:


I was wrong.


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

BBQ said:


> _*I was wrong.*_​


I forgive you BBQ. 

I can't even bust your balls because this whole debate will probably lead to 200 people having a better understanding of when they can and can't land a neutral on the ground bar.

You rotten bastard.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

BBQ said:


> I see the bar.
> 
> I would still fail it based on the instructions and labeling.





ButcherSlayer said:


> Your a failure just for saying that. How in any way would that make a difference.


You are asking me how the listing and labeling would make any difference?

:laughing:



> *110.3 Examination, Identification, Installation, and Use
> of Equipment.
> 
> (B) Installation and Use.* Listed or labeled equipment
> ...


Now it does turn out _I was wrong_ about that panels listing and labeling but I am not wrong that we have to follow it.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

I miss Hax. It is sad around here without my buddy.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

macmikeman said:


> I miss Hax. It is sad around here without my buddy.


I think he is here in spirit to support all of us because that is the kind of stand up guy he is.:whistling2:


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

macmikeman said:


> I miss Hax. It is sad around here without my buddy.


 
did he get banned again?


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

BBQ said:


> I was wrong.


You are dead to me. 













:laughing:


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## rrolleston (Mar 6, 2012)

I would have pulled the ground bar out and used it for another project and put everything on one bar. Much less confusing and I can use the bar for something else. I have a bunch of them and they also usually have a useful large ground lug that I can always use somewhere else.


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## humbled1 (Dec 3, 2013)

Since its a Main breaker panel it doesn't matter, only if its a sub panel (MLO) would his neutrals and grounds need to be separated.


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