# Customer Won't Pay



## kgb62 (Oct 23, 2011)

How do you guys who own the biz deal with non paying customers? I've been in biz for 15 months and this is the first time it has come up. It's only $600 so it's not killing me by any means but it's going on 8 weeks now with multiple letters, emails, phone calls. He was crying poor in the beginning. Now he just won't answer. I'm thinking bout stealing his patio furniture.


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

I have a guy that owes me $601.22 for 8 years now. Write him a bill monthly and don't do anything dumb.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Make sure your invoice includes interest after 30 days Kg, enter a sm claim, get a judgement. If no appeal after 30 days, they will be required to make some reparations, if not then fill out a writ of execution and mention the patio furniture.

~CS~


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## Spunk#7 (Nov 30, 2012)

Deadbeat! Just move on,chalk it up to experience.


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## T&K (Jun 18, 2012)

Attempt to be the good guy, set up a monthly payment plan of $100 per month. Try to get a little interest out of them. I've been tossing around the idea of financing jobs for people, especially jobs like service change outs, and fuse box replacement. Most of the time these types of jobs are not planned on by the homeowner, and they usually go somewhere to borrow money. Why don't I just finance it for them and make a little more off the job. Just a thought.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

That is the diff T&K 

I've negotiated payments with sorts confronted with unexpected $0000's 

But i've also had many agree on a price, sign and shake on it, then look me in the eye when i hand them an invoice and say 4Q 

many of these folks are career offenders , they know how to work the system

We, as contractors, need to know how to work that system against them as well

~CS~


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

kgb62 said:


> How do you guys who own the biz deal with non paying customers? I've been in biz for 15 months and this is the first time it has come up. It's only $600 so it's not killing me by any means but it's going on 8 weeks now with multiple letters, emails, phone calls. He was crying poor in the beginning. Now he just won't answer. I'm thinking bout stealing his patio furniture.


I tought yous guys in Philly had a special way of dealing wid deese kind a clowns.


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## T&K (Jun 18, 2012)

chicken steve said:


> We, as contractors, need to know how to work that system against them as well
> 
> ~CS~


Very true. My comment wasn't meant to take anything away from yours, or attempt to make myself look better, it was just another approach that could be taken. I totally agree with getting tough, but I, and I'm sure you, only want to do that after the friendly approach method gets blown off.


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## btharmy (Jan 17, 2009)

Just have your lawyer write a letter on his letterhead about following through in a non payment case for his client. It has worked for me.


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## sparky402 (Oct 15, 2013)

Ive had a gc owe me about $10g for the last year. Had a national debt collector/attorney call me out of the blue saying this builder owed a few other subs one of them a national rental chain that uses them to collect. He asked if i wanted in on it so i sent him my invoices. First the builder said it was paid in full but didnt have proof, then he said none of the work i did worked, now they say all ive done is shotty work and they had to hire a company to come fix it all and thats why i havent been paid.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

FWIW, one thing i learned @ ET is posting bounced checks @ the bank

I did not think a photocopy of a bad check could still be a functional piece of paperwork until i read it here

:thumbsup:

~CS~


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## Hmacanada (Jan 16, 2014)

T&K said:


> Attempt to be the good guy, set up a monthly payment plan of $100 per month. Try to get a little interest out of them. I've been tossing around the idea of financing jobs for people, especially jobs like service change outs, and fuse box replacement. Most of the time these types of jobs are not planned on by the homeowner, and they usually go somewhere to borrow money. Why don't I just finance it for them and make a little more off the job. Just a thought.



I have started using paypal on exactly this . Service up grades is one here that insurance companies push on people that can't really afford it.
Use their credit card to pay you monthly . 12 equal payments with a little extra added in for the hassel and done deal.
Just started doing this about 2 yrs ago , so far only had one I had to pursue to get all of my cash.



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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

We do PP, but they take 3% Hma...

~CS~


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Standing in their living room with a pistol on my hip looking menacing has worked for me in the past. Being a nice guy never has.


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## kgb62 (Oct 23, 2011)

Im set up to recieve credit card payments and he knows this. At this point hes just trying to stiff me. Is $600 worth the aggrevation in small claims court?


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

T&K said:


> Very true. My comment wasn't meant to take anything away from yours, or attempt to make myself look better, it was just another approach that could be taken. I totally agree with getting tough, but I, and I'm sure you, only want to do that after the friendly approach method gets blown off.


I always try _honey_ first T&K, any reasonable biz man does. In fact i'm also (after a while) willing to negotiate a bit on $$$, knowing what the courts and collection agencies take
_
(fwiw, those career deadbeats know this as well)_

That said, i'm your best friend or worst enemy

I've no time in this short existence to have anyone or anything jack me around inbetween 

For _ex,_ i've been served  restraining orders for simply showing up at a residence with an invoice in the past. 

There's a point where we need to think _'no more Nice Guy'_, because the old adage about them is right

~CS~


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

kgb62 said:


> Is $600 worth the aggrevation in small claims court?


No

And it's not even worth a collection agencies quality time

~CS~


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Buy a 200 clunker van, spray paint his name and deadbeat on it , leave it parked in front of his house till he pays

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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

kgb62 said:


> How do you guys who own the biz deal with non paying customers? I've been in biz for 15 months and this is the first time it has come up. It's only $600 so it's not killing me by any means but it's going on 8 weeks now with multiple letters, emails, phone calls. He was crying poor in the beginning. Now he just won't answer. I'm thinking bout stealing his patio furniture.


Be happy it's only $600 I had a GC take me for $4,000 in February


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

I have only been screwed over for $1300.00 and that guy finally won the waiting game. I gave up on him. He changed careers from general contracting to selling used cars. No point in chasing a loser.


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## sparky402 (Oct 15, 2013)

The customers/gcs that really p me off are the ones that try to tell you you did something wrong and thats why they dont owe you everything. I had a homeowner tell me all this bs that we were supposed to do and thats why he was only paying half and if that wasnt good enough he said take me to court for the rest.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

kgb62 said:


> How do you guys who own the biz deal with non paying customers? I've been in biz for 15 months and this is the first time it has come up. It's only $600 so it's not killing me by any means but it's going on 8 weeks now with multiple letters, emails, phone calls. He was crying poor in the beginning. Now he just won't answer. I'm thinking bout stealing his patio furniture.


I just turn them in to collections. I never get much money back but I just don't want them to get away with screwing me.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

sparky402 said:


> The customers/gcs that really p me off are the ones that try to tell you you did something wrong and thats why they dont owe you everything. I had a homeowner tell me all this bs that we were supposed to do and thats why he was only paying half and if that wasnt good enough he said take me to court for the rest.


And you should.


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## johnnyontheside (Aug 30, 2010)

Maybe you should contact Shockdoc.


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## Niven8 (Sep 19, 2009)

This is where being 6'3" and 280lb power lifter comes in handy for me. Not so much for getting into crawl spaces or attic accesses.


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## te12co2w (Jun 3, 2007)

A sign installer owed me $7000. Our small claims system goes up to $6000. I filed a claim for $6000. I got a judgement in my favor for the full 6 grand. Then the judge told me " good luck collecting". He said that the constable would go to his house and serve the papers, but that's as far as it went. I guess the old adage "you can't get blood out of a turnip" holds some truth. He no longer works so I can't garnish his wages. As far as I know he has nothing I can seize even if I knew how. Plus, I had to travel 150 miles one way to go to court in his location. That one hurt a little.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

In AZ we can lien his property.

It will be a bonus some day when he wants to sell or refinance his house and you will get a check with interest.


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## rrolleston (Mar 6, 2012)

chicken steve said:


> We do PP, but they take 3% Hma...
> 
> ~CS~


Its 2.7% for us but if we use the paypal CC that they sent us to buy materials and pay bills we get 1% back so we really only end up paying 1.7% and can write that off as business expense.


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## NacBooster29 (Oct 25, 2010)

te12co2w said:


> A sign installer owed me $7000. Our small claims system goes up to $6000. I filed a claim for $6000. I got a judgement in my favor for the full 6 grand. Then the judge told me " good luck collecting". He said that the constable would go to his house and serve the papers, but that's as far as it went. I guess the old adage "you can't get blood out of a turnip" holds some truth. He no longer works so I can't garnish his wages. As far as I know he has nothing I can seize even if I knew how. Plus, I had to travel 150 miles one way to go to court in his location. That one hurt a little.


That's when you do a reconn and misplace some of his property into your truck. And it disappears. Sorry karma


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## NotApprvd4Electric (Jul 16, 2014)

chicken steve said:


> FWIW, one thing i learned @ ET is posting bounced checks @ the bank
> 
> I did not think a photocopy of a bad check could still be a functional piece of paperwork until i read it here
> 
> ...


Can you explain this? Where do you post it and what happens then?


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

NotApprvd4Electric said:


> Can you explain this?
> Where do you post it and what happens then?



Not as well as your bank might NA4E 

In my case, the bank sends out a notification of a bounced check, which is basically a photocopy of the original. 

In conversation here, i'm informed said piece of paper is still legal tender

soooooOOOOooo, i take it to MY bank, tell the clerk the story, who informs me that i should take it to the submitters bank (Friday, with a wink ) 

I tool on down , hand the clerk there the Pcopy, they check the deadbeats funds, and they cashed it on the spot :thumbsup:

The thread here (which i'll never find) details_ 'posting'_ said check @ the writers fiscal facility UNTIL there are funds available



~CS~


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

The monthly mailbox removal has bought me a reputation in one particular neighborhood.

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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

I think us ECs should form local websites and exposing deadbeat GCs and homeowners

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## NotApprvd4Electric (Jul 16, 2014)

I've heard people say that they protested in front of customer's houses with signs saying that the homeowner doesn't pay their debts. I imagine that could be effective as long as you follow the law.


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## Galt (Sep 11, 2013)

When I first started in business the REA use to hold a little get together once a month all electricians were invited we use to take turns bringing cake and ice cream. This allowed us to discuss the dead beats. Here in Wi. If someone don't want to pay you they don't have to.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Black Dog said:


> Be happy it's only $600 I had a GC take me for $4,000 in February


Why don't you file a notice to owner even if it's too late.
I did have a collection agency harass someone until they paid.
They had an attorney file a cease and desist order against them. They didn't charge me for their services, the owner called me to settle.
Didn't cost me a thing and I got my 2k.


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## te12co2w (Jun 3, 2007)

220/221 said:


> In AZ we can lien his property.
> 
> It will be a bonus some day when he wants to sell or refinance his house and you will get a check with interest.


 What's the procedure? Do you need a lawyer? Is it just a form at the court house?


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## NotApprvd4Electric (Jul 16, 2014)

I'm pretty sure in New Jersey you can lien as well but I am not sure the procedure. Anyone ever do it?


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

NotApprvd4Electric said:


> I'm pretty sure in New Jersey you can lien as well but I am not sure the procedure. Anyone ever do it?


 Don't be too sure about that. You have to file and have everything in place before the invoice hit the 90 day mark. So that means once the invoice is 15 days past due you need to start the lien process or it's too late.

And philly isn't in New Jersey FYI


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

As far as liens are concerned:

Sold a spec house, at closing lawyer said "we can't close, there's a lien" (long story why). I said "sure, just bond around it."

So bond cost less then $25, house closed, never heard any more about it.


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

readydave8 said:


> As far as liens are concerned: Sold a spec house, at closing lawyer said "we can't close, there's a lien" (long story why). I said "sure, just bond around it." So bond cost less then $25, house closed, never heard any more about it.


Huh?


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

In 1990 I started my zero tolerance policy, I decided to always get paid.

Most recent: did a job for $100, lady kept not getting around to paying. I was real nice but persistent.

After 5 or 6 weeks, got lawyer to send her a letter dunning for the $100 plus $100 legal fee. I figured if that resulted in $100 payment I'd give it to lawyer, lawyer probably have split it with me, if not I didn't care.

2 weeks later customer sent a check for $200.


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## NacBooster29 (Oct 25, 2010)

Shockdoc said:


> I think us ECs should form local websites and exposing deadbeat GCs and homeowners
> 
> Sent from my C5215 using electriciantalk.com mobile
> 
> Deleted


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

robnj772 said:


> Don't be too sure about that. You have to file and have everything in place before the invoice hit the 90 day mark. So that means once the invoice is 15 days past due you need to start the lien process or it's too late.
> 
> And philly isn't in New Jersey FYI


An attorney advised me to send a notice to owner even after the time officially expired just as some saber rattling. I've done it more than once, it seems to get their attention.


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## Joefixit2 (Nov 16, 2007)

220/221 said:


> In AZ we can lien his property.
> 
> It will be a bonus some day when he wants to sell or refinance his house and you will get a check with interest.


 Don't you have to file pre lien paperwork before the job starts in order to file a lien later?


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## Joefixit2 (Nov 16, 2007)

kgb62 said:


> How do you guys who own the biz deal with non paying customers? I've been in biz for 15 months and this is the first time it has come up. It's only $600 so it's not killing me by any means but it's going on 8 weeks now with multiple letters, emails, phone calls. He was crying poor in the beginning. Now he just won't answer. I'm thinking bout stealing his patio furniture.


You haven't given us enough information for us to advise you. What kind of patio furniture is it?


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## dmxtothemax (Jun 15, 2010)

View attachment 37664


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

te12co2w said:


> What's the procedure? Do you need a lawyer? Is it just a form at the court house?


I don't know the procedures. I just pull the plow.

I just know that it is common and has paid off for us a couple times. Sometimes we pre lien a job, whatever that means. 

Google _Mechanics Liens_ in your state.




> Don't you have to file pre lien paperwork before the job starts in order to file a lien later?


I just saw this and, I don't know **** :jester:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

220/221 said:


> .......Sometimes we pre lien a job, whatever that means. ........


Pre-lien means a lien is filed at the _beginning _of a job. This prevents any misunderstanding about whether a lien is going to be filed or not. The customer goes into the contract knowing there's going to be a lien in place until all debts to the contractor are satisfied.

If the customer is honest and fully intends to pay, pre-liens aren't an issue.


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## janagyjr (Feb 7, 2011)

kgb62 said:


> How do you guys who own the biz deal with non paying customers? I've been in biz for 15 months and this is the first time it has come up. It's only $600 so it's not killing me by any means but it's going on 8 weeks now with multiple letters, emails, phone calls. He was crying poor in the beginning. Now he just won't answer. I'm thinking bout stealing his patio furniture.


After 4 months of him crying poor (before taking a family vacation to Colorado), me trying to set up some sort of repayment plan, and endless frustration, I just wrote him off and vowed never to do business with him again. Unfortunately the guy also calls himself a Christian and was a family friend up until this point.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

480sparky said:


> Pre-lien means a lien is filed at the _beginning _of a job. This prevents any misunderstanding about whether a lien is going to be filed or not. The customer goes into the contract knowing there's going to be a lien in place until all debts to the contractor are satisfied.
> 
> If the customer is honest and fully intends to pay, pre-liens aren't an issue.


We may also find a lien waiver in our contractual packages starting out on a job, OR have it incorporated into the standard AIA 401's legalese

I radically altered the last AIA401, with the acknowledgment of all signatories

~CS~


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Deadbeat accounts are a cost of doing business. Nothing you do after the fact guarantees payment. You do your best to pre-qualify your customers. If it stinks going in, chances are it will stink going out. Sometimes you get stiffed by the nice guys. It is what it is.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

I deal almost exclusively with GC's and none of them have been in business less than ten years. Those guys have never stiffed me.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

I've had GC's declare bankruptcy , i've had customers hauled off by the feds, i've seen jobs shut down, and i've tried _every_ legal recourse to collect in the past

This is why i'm always on posters here over a contract. Paper is nice, but the legal process behind making good on it can grind mighty slow, to where it's almost moot

~CS~


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

Galt said:


> When I first started in business the REA use to hold a little get together once a month all electricians were invited we use to take turns bringing cake and ice cream. This allowed us to discuss the dead beats. Here in Wi. If someone don't want to pay you they don't have to.


That's right Galt but like you said, once the word gets around, nobody needs to do work for the deadbeats either. I had one guy (that I turned down) tell me that he had left messages with 6 electricians and no one returned his calls.  The slow payers get slow service. The no payers get no service!!


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

As it should be.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Works _great_ in a small pond

One  GC here was last seen waving a $100 bill in a local coffee shop

no takers! 

~CS~


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## janagyjr (Feb 7, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> Works _great_ in a small pond
> 
> One  GC here was last seen waving a $100 bill in a local coffee shop
> 
> ...


??????????


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## dmxtothemax (Jun 15, 2010)

Ditto !

?????


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Nobody wanted to work for him.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

http://blogs.mprnews.org/newscut/2014/07/trash-hauler-dumps-trash-in-deadbeat-customers-driveway/


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## janagyjr (Feb 7, 2011)

480sparky said:


> http://blogs.mprnews.org/newscut/2014/07/trash-hauler-dumps-trash-in-deadbeat-customers-driveway/


Unfortunately we cannot just take our wire and materials back when a customer doesn't pay. The job I got stiffed on, the HO's place would have burned to the ground (and probably still will the way he's overloading wires and circuits).


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

nrp3 said:


> Nobody wanted to work for him.


Exactly

even waving cold hard cash didn't make him look any better

~CS~


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## devosf (Jan 17, 2012)

kgb62 said:


> How do you guys who own the biz deal with non paying customers? I've been in biz for 15 months and this is the first time it has come up. It's only $600 so it's not killing me by any means but it's going on 8 weeks now with multiple letters, emails, phone calls. He was crying poor in the beginning. Now he just won't answer. I'm thinking bout stealing his patio furniture.


I was in a similar situation and I billed the customer 3 times (3 months), realized they were not going to pay, and reported it as a loss on my taxes. Don't get emotionally attached to your deadbeat accounts. Move on so they don't sap your mojo and your chi.


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## B-ri (Dec 11, 2013)

Go to the customers house when they're home, knock on the door and request final payment. If they refuse to pay or avoid answering the door, pull their meter  the check book usually comes out quickly after that.


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

robnj772 said:


> Huh?


So in Georgia, lien is only 1st step. It may persuade some customers to pay but house can still be sold with a lien against it.


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

B-ri said:


> Go to the customers house when they're home, knock on the door and request final payment. If they refuse to pay or avoid answering the door, pull their meter  the check book usually comes out quickly after that.


Which will result in one of several possible outcomes, some of which will include electrician in jail.


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## Mich drew (Mar 3, 2013)

I know a big guy named Guido who is effective at collections.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

devosf said:


> I was in a similar situation and I billed the customer 3 times (3 months), realized they were not going to pay, and reported it as a loss on my taxes. Don't get emotionally attached to your deadbeat accounts. Move on so they don't sap your mojo and your chi.


It's true. We deal with all types - deadbeats, nutjobs, passive/aggressives, screamers; you name it, we get them.

I tend to let the nutjobs get to me. It's not healthy.

When I think about the truly good people I work with, they far outnumber the deadbeats and wackos. Thanks for the reminder  .


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

devosf said:


> ...., and reported it as a loss on my taxes........ .


Did you send the non-payer a 1099-Misc for a Forgiven Debt?


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## Joefixit2 (Nov 16, 2007)

devosf said:


> I was in a similar situation and I billed the customer 3 times (3 months), realized they were not going to pay, and reported it as a loss on my taxes. Don't get emotionally attached to your deadbeat accounts. Move on so they don't sap your mojo and your chi.


How can you claim a loss for something you never had? You already claimed the materials in your purchase expenses and the labor in your payroll expenses, what else is there to claim?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Joefixit2 said:


> How can you claim a loss for something you never had? You already claimed the materials in your purchase expenses and the labor in your payroll expenses, what else is there to claim?


As soon as an invoice is created, the IRS considers it income on the part of the EC, whether they've been paid or not.

Only by submitting a 1099-Misc for a Forgiven Debt can you deduct the loss. This then creates an 'income' for the non-payer as they have received goods and/or services and not paid for them. They then have to pay taxes on the money they didn't pay the EC.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Joefixit2 said:


> How can you claim a loss for something you never had? You already claimed the materials in your purchase expenses and the labor in your payroll expenses, what else is there to claim?


It's still considered a receivable that you pay taxes on unless it's written off.


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## Electricdon (Mar 30, 2014)

You have already written off the labor portion, you'll need to write off the labor.


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## Electricdon (Mar 30, 2014)

Sorry, materials.


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## devosf (Jan 17, 2012)

480sparky said:


> Did you send the non-payer a 1099-Misc for a Forgiven Debt?


I am not an account, but at the end of the year my accountant asks for losses I suffered during the year such as unpaid accounts...


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## janagyjr (Feb 7, 2011)

480sparky said:


> As soon as an invoice is created, the IRS considers it income on the part of the EC, whether they've been paid or not.
> 
> Only by submitting a 1099-Misc for a Forgiven Debt can you deduct the loss. This then creates an 'income' for the non-payer as they have received goods and/or services and not paid for them. They then have to pay taxes on the money they didn't pay the EC.


I will have to talk to my accountant about this, this is good news.



devosf said:


> I am not an account, but at the end of the year my accountant asks for losses I suffered during the year such as unpaid accounts...


And, if 480 is right, they submit those 1099-Misc for Forgiven Debt....


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## LouieCO (Jul 13, 2014)

holy **** i'm just an apprentice and this is giving me anxiety. lol


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## Sparky J (May 17, 2011)

LouieCO said:


> holy **** i'm just an apprentice and this is giving me anxiety. lol


Yeah man as you go through the trade you will see and hear of all the crazy ways people go about slow or non payment. And also some of the "creative" ways people deal with them (some legal, some not).

Me personally my biggest problem with non payers is it really eerks me to have some jackass using and/or enjoying something for free after I worked my ass off to install it.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

I've got a few inspectors convinced i'm not _'done' _until i'm paid, ergo no final....~CS~


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## janagyjr (Feb 7, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> I've got a few inspectors convinced i'm not _'done' _until i'm paid, ergo no final....~CS~


That sounds like it really skirts legality, though I can't really speak. I've done work that probably should have been inspected but I never had it done (replacing fixtures and one hardwired appliance only, tbh).


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## LouieCO (Jul 13, 2014)

Sparky J said:


> Yeah man as you go through the trade you will see and hear of all the crazy ways people go about slow or non payment. And also some of the "creative" ways people deal with them (some legal, some not).
> 
> Me personally my biggest problem with non payers is it really eerks me to have some jackass using and/or enjoying something for free after I worked my ass off to install it.


yeah man that's not right


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

janagyjr said:


> That sounds like it really skirts legality, though I can't really speak. .


_mmmmmmm_aybe Jana , buthcha gotta fight fire w/fire :whistling2:

for _ex_. i just found out one scumbag i dealt with isn't a registered biz 

i learned that on line from our sec of state 

now they've given him a deadline to register, oh and, his tax situation might have some serious challenges this year, you know how the taxman gets when he don't get his cut!! :no:

Oh and, the dept of welfare might want to hear about that too! :no:

Trust me, one can do more damage in an afternoon on this wonderful mode of communication than most lawyers you'll hire can do in a year!:thumbsup:

:laughing::thumbup:~CS~


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## kbsparky (Sep 20, 2007)

480sparky said:


> As soon as an invoice is created, the IRS considers it income on the part of the EC, whether they've been paid or not....





99cents said:


> It's still considered a receivable that you pay taxes on unless it's written off.


Neither is applicable if you are on a _cash basis accounting_.


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## sstlouis03 (Jun 23, 2011)

Well I'm not sure what kind of work you did for him but I have a great story from one of my old companies.

We had installed a new package unit on a building. After about 2-3 months of trying to collect the customer never paid. Never even made a payment. After my boss tried contacting them several times he decided enough was enough. We showed up one night with our man lift, strapped the unit to it and lifted it straight up and off. Left a nice big hole in the roof. Guess who called the next morning saying the A/C wasn't working. They were told to contact another contractor. 

Guess what I'm getting at is if the work you did is outside or accessible go take it back down, if you installed a new breaker, go take it out. Technically it is still yours.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

sstlouis03 said:


> ...Technically it is still yours.


 Seems like that should be the case, but it's not. Once it's installed on the customers property, in the eyes of the law it belongs to the customer and removing it is theft and you will be arrested.

The best you can do is file a civil complaint.


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## egruhadfio (Jul 21, 2014)

sstlouis03 said:


> Well I'm not sure what kind of work you did for him but I have a great story from one of my old companies.
> 
> We had installed a new package unit on a building. After about 2-3 months of trying to collect the customer never paid. Never even made a payment. After my boss tried contacting them several times he decided enough was enough. We showed up one night with our man lift, strapped the unit to it and lifted it straight up and off. Left a nice big hole in the roof. Guess who called the next morning saying the A/C wasn't working. They were told to contact another contractor.
> *
> Guess what I'm getting at is if the work you did is outside or accessible go take it back down, if you installed a new breaker, go take it out. Technically it is still yours.*


I hate when people do this...

You just encouraged people to break the law. If someone followed what you said, they could get into a lot of trouble. 

You said "_Technically it is still yours._", but that is the exact polar opposite from the truth.

Before you recommend that people commit felonies that can put them in prison, you should get a clue as to what the f*ck you are talking about.


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## NacBooster29 (Oct 25, 2010)

It would be brazenly ballsy of a customer to call the cops , on a contractor they never paid. 
If it was an item you could remove and keep out of sight. In case the authorities come looking. 
I would consider a repo.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

You guys would do some stupid chit for six hundred bucks.


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## NacBooster29 (Oct 25, 2010)

Why can car companies take your car if you don't pay? Because you sign a finance agreement? Well a signed contract between a contractor and a customer should be equally enforceable.


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## kgb62 (Oct 23, 2011)

So I had my lawyer write up a letter and send it to him via certified mail. He called me after he opened it and gave me a credit card number over the phone. Told him to lose my number. Case closed. 


Sent from my iPhone using electriciantalk.com


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## sstlouis03 (Jun 23, 2011)

egruhadfio said:


> I hate when people do this... You just encouraged people to break the law. If someone followed what you said, they could get into a lot of trouble. You said "Technically it is still yours.", but that is the exact polar opposite from the truth. Before you recommend that people commit felonies that can put them in prison, you should get a clue as to what the f*ck you are talking about.


 Ughhhh ok. I encourage you to jump off a bridge, it's a real thrill, technically there is water at the bottom.

By the way this is a quote of yours. 

"Breaking laws and paying fines is part of doing business, many companies have line items in their budget for it."


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## sstlouis03 (Jun 23, 2011)

kgb62 said:


> So I had my lawyer write up a letter and send it to him via certified mail. He called me after he opened it and gave me a credit card number over the phone. Told him to lose my number. Case closed. Sent from my iPhone using electriciantalk.com


Congrats, glad you got it solved.


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## kgb62 (Oct 23, 2011)

sstlouis03 said:


> Congrats, glad you got it solved.



Thanks. Sstlouis. Still put it way too much time over $600. 


Sent from my iPhone using electriciantalk.com


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Big John said:


> Seems like that should be the case, but it's not. Once it's installed on the customers property, in the eyes of the law it belongs to the customer and removing it is theft and you will be arrested.
> 
> The best you can do is file a civil complaint.


In the eyes of the law, the customer should have paid him.
I would call it a draw.
It would be interesting to see this work out in front of a judge.
Did he install it? Yes your honor.
Did you pay him? No, your honor.
What did you expect might happen?
I would get it for free your honor?


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

The law can work for you or against you.

for ex., i was served a restraining order for simply showing up with a bill

even the cop (we knew each other) was pissed off about it

~CS~


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## devosf (Jan 17, 2012)

chicken steve said:


> The law can work for you or against you. for ex., i was served a restraining order for simply showing up with a bill even the cop (we knew each other) was pissed off about it ~CS~


It's foolish to physically go to a deadbeats home with outstanding bill in hand. What good can become of it and what could you possibly achieve with such an aggressive action? You end up looking like a stalker psychopath.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

jrannis said:


> In the eyes of the law, the customer should have paid him.
> I would call it a draw.
> It would be interesting to see this work out in front of a judge.
> Did he install it? Yes your honor.
> ...


 Let me clarify: "In the eyes of the police." If you go onto someone else's property where they can demonstrate ownership, and start removing stuff attached to their property under the claim that "it belongs to you" because you installed it, you stand a really good chance of going to jail.

I do not believe most police would even attempt to adjudicate a situation like that. They would lock you up and wait for the courts to sort it out. And that would put you in a much worse bargaining position than if you'd civilly taken it to court to begin with.

I'm not a lawyer though, and if one of y'all wants to test that theory and tell me how it works, by all means.


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## FrunkSlammer (Aug 31, 2013)

I've noticed some of the bigger service companies (not electrical) require a credit card # before they start their service. It's a great idea.


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## Skipintime (Mar 25, 2013)

Just finished a job and lady sends me a text saying that her (5 year old) dryer has three small speck sized chips on top. Told her I didn't remember being near the dryer. She said I must have set a tool on it? I told her I would take a look at it. They are barely visible. I told her I would buy the manufacturers touch up pen with exact color match and presented her with her bill. She writes me a check for half and says she just spent to much money on a cruise and wants me to wait a month for the rest.


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## btharmy (Jan 17, 2009)

Skipintime said:


> Just finished a job and lady sends me a text saying that her (5 year old) dryer has three small speck sized chips on top. Told her I didn't remember being near the dryer. She said I must have set a tool on it? I told her I would take a look at it. They are barely visible. I told her I would buy the manufacturers touch up pen with exact color match and presented her with her bill. She writes me a check for half and says she just spent to much money on a cruise and wants me to wait a month for the rest.


Did you carve your initials in the top of her dryer with your keyhole saw??


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## Skipintime (Mar 25, 2013)

btharmy said:


> Did you carve your initials in the top of her dryer with your keyhole saw??


No but did accidentally drop an opened can of sardines behind it!


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## janagyjr (Feb 7, 2011)

devosf said:


> It's foolish to physically go to a deadbeats home with outstanding bill in hand. What good can become of it and what could you possibly achieve with such an aggressive action? You end up looking like a stalker psychopath.


Seriously? It's foolish to go to a former customer's home with a bill in hand? Because doing it through the mail is so much better? 

I like the idea of the 1099 Misc Forgiven Debt, you still don't get paid but at least they still have to pay taxes on it. Keeps you legal and out of trouble.


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## janagyjr (Feb 7, 2011)

Skipintime said:


> No but did accidentally drop an opened can of sardines behind it!


I can live with that. :whistling2:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

NacBooster29 said:


> Why can car companies take your car if you don't pay? Because you sign a finance agreement? Well a signed contract between a contractor and a customer should be equally enforceable.


Because a car sitting in your driveway is not real estate.


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## FrunkSlammer (Aug 31, 2013)

Not to mention it's like 20 pages of legalese one has to agree to in getting a loan for a car, it's a hand shake at best to get an electrician to do work at your house.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

devosf said:


> It's foolish to physically go to a deadbeats home with outstanding bill in hand. What good can become of it and what could you possibly achieve with such an aggressive action? You end up looking like a stalker psychopath.


Do say Devo!

Apparently you've never invoiced anyone in person? It's done all the time.

That's because we ask progress payments for ongoing jobs, and are there for job meetings, etc. 

And so you misunderstand the situation, as well as the law involved in the situation (very common btw) 

One does not need to be a threat, nor imply a threat to be restrained. 

One's _presence_ simply needs to be _undesired_

~CS~


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

chicken steve said:


> Do say Devo!
> 
> Apparently you've never invoiced anyone in person? It's done all the time.
> 
> ...


Sure, you can deliver an invoice in person. At that point, the customer isn't a deadbeat. If you arrive six weeks later with the same invoice and an ugly look on your face, that's something completely different.

For the record, I email all my invoices.


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## FrunkSlammer (Aug 31, 2013)

Yeah I email too and people can click the invoice and pay online with Paypal. Or they can mail me the cheque or I can stop by and get the cheque or process a credit card or take cash.

For small service work, I'm starting to like the idea of just requesting a credit card number at the beginning.. then if they don't pay any other way, I can process their card manually. I haven't had any trouble, but I suspect my day is coming and I'd rather prevent these deadbeats than learn to deal with them.


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## Expediter (Mar 12, 2014)

sstlouis03 said:


> Well I'm not sure what kind of work you did for him but I have a great story from one of my old companies.
> 
> We had installed a new package unit on a building. After about 2-3 months of trying to collect the customer never paid. Never even made a payment. After my boss tried contacting them several times he decided enough was enough. We showed up one night with our man lift, strapped the unit to it and lifted it straight up and off. Left a nice big hole in the roof. Guess who called the next morning saying the A/C wasn't working. They were told to contact another contractor.
> 
> Guess what I'm getting at is if the work you did is outside or accessible go take it back down, if you installed a new breaker, go take it out. Technically it is still yours.


So if you go to a restaurant, eat a meal,and can't or won't pay, they can put their finger down your throat, make you puke, because technically it is still their food? You haven't digested it yet..... 

No, you will be arrested for theft of goods and services.


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## sstlouis03 (Jun 23, 2011)

Expediter said:


> So if you go to a restaurant, eat a meal,and can't or won't pay, they can put their finger down your throat, make you puke, because technically it is still their food? You haven't digested it yet..... No, you will be arrested for theft of goods and services.


No they can't do that but they can call the police and have you arrested. Try that with a customer. Two different scenarios buddy. 

If you go and take your "installation" back and they call the police it's almost like a drug dealer calling because his drugs got stolen.


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## LouieCO (Jul 13, 2014)

I'm gonna get credit cards right off the bat if/when I own an electric company. I've been burned too many times loaning people money to be naive.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

We just shake 'em by the ankles to see what falls outta their pockets

~CS~


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## FrunkSlammer (Aug 31, 2013)

If you're a legitimate business, I don't see anything wrong with asking for a credit card number prior to commencing work and installing materials. It would go a long way in preventing these types of stories, which it seems like everyone has. And we have enough trouble making money in the business, don't need customers shafting us too.


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## Highvoltage77 (Mar 11, 2014)

Lol 
I like ur idea about takin his patio furniture 
Just don't use ur company truck 
Sometimes u need to just walk away If he's crying broke from the start. 
I know that is a small job 
But on larger $$$$ jobs I would suggest asking for a % up front as the job moves forward ask for another % and so on. Kinda like a retainer from a lawyer


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## Electricdon (Mar 30, 2014)

FrunkSlammer said:


> If you're a legitimate business, I don't see anything wrong with asking for a credit card number prior to commencing work and installing materials. It would go a long way in preventing these types of stories, which it seems like everyone has. And we have enough trouble making money in the business, don't need customers shafting us too.



Well said.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## janagyjr (Feb 7, 2011)

FrunkSlammer said:


> If you're a legitimate business, I don't see anything wrong with asking for a credit card number prior to commencing work and installing materials. It would go a long way in preventing these types of stories, which it seems like everyone has. And we have enough trouble making money in the business, don't need customers shafting us too.


Don't have a merchant account, and really don't want to try and deal with that at the moment.



Highvoltage77 said:


> Lol
> I like ur idea about takin his patio furniture
> Just don't use ur company truck
> Sometimes u need to just walk away If he's crying broke from the start.
> ...


I have, and really I think just walking away is the best advice. Word will get out eventually that that person is a deadbeat.


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## janagyjr (Feb 7, 2011)

FrunkSlammer said:


> If you're a legitimate business, I don't see anything wrong with asking for a credit card number prior to commencing work and installing materials. It would go a long way in preventing these types of stories, which it seems like everyone has. And we have enough trouble making money in the business, don't need customers shafting us too.


Don't have a merchant account, and really don't want to try and deal with that at the moment.



Highvoltage77 said:


> Lol
> I like ur idea about takin his patio furniture
> Just don't use ur company truck
> Sometimes u need to just walk away If he's crying broke from the start.
> ...


I have, and really I think just walking away is the best advice. Word will get out eventually that that person is a deadbeat.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Mechanic's lien?


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## FrunkSlammer (Aug 31, 2013)

janagyjr said:


> Don't have a merchant account, and really don't want to try and deal with that at the moment.


I don't have a merchant account either, I just process credit cards physically through Square at 2.75% and with only the card number for I think 3% or 3.5%? No monthly or yearly fees, just those percentages and it links to your personal or business banking account. 

There's other choices out there too... if you can't be bothered with something to cheap and simple to use and operate, you're just asking to be hassled. You gotta position yourself so you always have the power and upper hand with those psycho customers.


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## Sparky J (May 17, 2011)

Yes square or the other pay as you go is the S. I did the merchant account portable thing for a few years and it's $$$$. Yes square and others fees per use is usually higher than a merchant account charges for processing the transaction, they don't hit you with bs fees for card type (flyer miles, bonus card, etc.) and also fees like cellular for the machine and also Amex has their own bs fee just to add insult to injury.


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## janagyjr (Feb 7, 2011)

FrunkSlammer said:


> I don't have a merchant account either, I just process credit cards physically through Square at 2.75% and with only the card number for I think 3% or 3.5%? No monthly or yearly fees, just those percentages and it links to your personal or business banking account.
> 
> There's other choices out there too... if you can't be bothered with something to cheap and simple to use and operate, you're just asking to be hassled. You gotta position yourself so you always have the power and upper hand with those psycho customers.


I'll look into it, then. I've only recently gotten a smart phone (Samsung Galaxy Proclaim). I'll have to add in the CC fee if they go that route, though.


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## Expediter (Mar 12, 2014)

-- --


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## FrunkSlammer (Aug 31, 2013)

janagyjr said:


> I'll look into it, then. I've only recently gotten a smart phone (Samsung Galaxy Proclaim). I'll have to add in the CC fee if they go that route, though.


Pretty sure that phone is supported for Square.

Personally i don't think you should add the CC fee in, but there's been debates on that topic here already. If you're requesting the credit card to protect yourself from non-payment, you can't then also charge for it, because nobody will want to do it and you'll be back to square one. 

Just increase your price ever so slightly the first year to cover your overhead of what you think you'll pay.. then adjust for next year based on how much you actually pay. It's now part of your operating expense.

Do you charge a check fee to customers? Do you charge a hassle fee for chasing people around and trying to get payments? Credit card is just convenience when needed and keeps quick cash flow in the business, it's a part of your overhead, it's the cost of doing business.

The above is my opinion.. do as you please.


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## janagyjr (Feb 7, 2011)

FrunkSlammer said:


> Pretty sure that phone is supported for Square.
> 
> Personally i don't think you should add the CC fee in, but there's been debates on that topic here already. If you're requesting the credit card to protect yourself from non-payment, you can't then also charge for it, because nobody will want to do it and you'll be back to square one.
> 
> ...


You make good points, definitely something to consider. :thumbsup:


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## FrunkSlammer (Aug 31, 2013)

I send some invoices through email, so then I can go collect a cheque... my software allows online payments through Paypal. Sometimes customers pay it immediately through paypal, and I'm like "daaaamn, that's $15 out of my pocket in fees!! aaaargh" but then I realize it would have cost me probably 30 minutes of my time to go collect a cheque and chit-chat, plus driving, then I gotta go to the bank and deposit the cheque and then come home.. probably an hour plus my costs in fuel and wear and tear on vehicle. $15 is probably a much better deal, I don't have to do anything.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Being able to deposit the check via smart phone is handy too. Almost never set foot in the bank. Thinking about getting the credit card add on too for speedier payment. Waiting for payment sucks.


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## FrunkSlammer (Aug 31, 2013)

Damn I wish I had that photo deposit for cheques. Canada just got ATM's though, so it's going to be a while.


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## janagyjr (Feb 7, 2011)

FrunkSlammer said:


> Damn I wish I had that photo deposit for cheques. Canada just got ATM's though, so it's going to be a while.


You don't have Region's banks up in the great white north?


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

FrunkSlammer said:


> Do you charge a check fee to customers? *Do you charge a hassle fee for chasing people around and trying to get payments?* Credit card is just convenience when needed and keeps quick cash flow in the business, it's a part of your overhead, it's the cost of doing business.
> 
> The above is my opinion.. do as you please.


Invoices should have the % per month over 30 days on them. (sm clams here allows 19%)

~CS~


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Electronic transfer from your customer's account to your account will get easier. It's actually fairly easy now. I pay my shop rent by email. When I sold my truck the guy paid me by email. Cheques are becoming antiquated.


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## John Peters (Jan 1, 2009)

Use peer pressure. Look them up on Facebook send them a nice note, look them up on Google and everywhere else.

Let them know that you know where they hang out but be super nice about it.


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## janagyjr (Feb 7, 2011)

That's kind of creepy.

Sent from my SCH-S738C using electriciantalk.com mobile app


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

It could be considered stalking. If you want to badmouth someone, you need to have a judgement against them, and then you can only claim they stiffed you (or whatever they may have done) publicly

That said , you could post your judgement in the local rag, internet, or skywrite it

go you


~CS~


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

I used to install fences as a teen with an uncle. One guy didn't pay so my uncle cut the fence at waist height with a chainsaw all the way around :laughing:

I don't suggest that kind of action but it sure was funny to watch.


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## John Peters (Jan 1, 2009)

chicken steve said:


> It could be considered stalking. If you want to badmouth someone,
> ~CS~


Come on guys, this is a professional electrical contractors forum. We don't stalk and we don't badmouth.

Peer pressure works like this. If your client sees you posting on his social pages saying something very innocent like "Hi I just want to make sure you are happy with my electrical work. Is everything is working perfectly?" then he realizes that if he doesn't pay his bills you could say 

Hello again. Yes I guarantee all my work but warranty work requires that your bill be paid in full." 

Most people don't want to look bad in front of their peers and equals and so that subtle pressure may cause him to think that maybe he should pay his bills so he doesn't look bad. If this doesn't work then you've got a deadbeat. Good luck. 

For the future if it's a good size contract you might as well do a name and company name search on the web before you start work. If it's a very large job might want to pay a little money for those online search engines to tell you everything about a person's history including suits judgments and bad credit reports.

I'm not saying I would do anything other than collect information. Information is knowledge. Knowledge can be very powerful if you use it the right way. 

So that's my two cents, but then again what do I know after more than 48 years as an electrical contractor. I am not a lawyer.


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

The company I work for used to send Tiny to collect and apparently from what I was told, it worked out pretty well.
By the way, his last name is Johnson.:laughing:


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

The time to _'collect info'_ is when they first make contact. People will give out all manner of personal and/or contact info then, so get it then.



~CS~


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## John Peters (Jan 1, 2009)

chicken steve said:


> The time to _'collect info'_ is when they first make contact.
> ~CS~


Yes I agree. I get their cell number for texting (I ask is it text-able?) and email "for billing purposes" in addition to the caller ID.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Collection agencies usually want as much info as possible.

That first check's bank, bank#'s can be important if we never get another.... , the sheriff needs an addy to deliver summons , skip trace is around $50 and up if we have not the needed customer info. 

If you have a judgement, you can add %'s , and add these visitation fees to the total owed

unfortunately certain court motions are harder to employ that others, a writ of execution (for ex) is harder than a writ of attachment , or the financial hearing prerequisite to it

~CS~


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## Tiger (Jan 3, 2008)

I've kept track of non-payments over the years, mostly so I won't work for them again. I haven't had a non-payment in so long I forget where the paper is. It is so much less than 1% of gross that it wasn't worth tracking or trying to collect. 

I have collected...about 2 for 4 with liens, more with certified letters. A few I didn't and it was always irritating. I try to keep my mind on the big picture and collections and negotiations are part of the business. On the whole it has been one problem client every year or two, so maybe 15-20 people in 30 years. Not much to think about.


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