# Checking for a bad neutral



## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

What is the quickest way you have found to check for a loose or bad poco neutral and eliminate the house wiring? I have a few things I always do first. Visually inspecting the drop if possible is always the first thing I do.......


----------



## BurtiElectric (Jan 11, 2011)

Check the crimps followed, by pulling the meter and and testing voltage


----------



## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

Load one phase while testing voltage on the other.

A simple 1000W load will do.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Check L-L voltage first, then each L-G voltage.

Turn off one small breaker, then recheck both L-G voltage. If it jumps back & forth in relationship to the load being turned on/off, that's a huge red flag.


----------



## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

I have an old ceiling heater I pulled from a bathroom rated at 1100 W. I clip it onto the meter jaws and measure the voltage.


----------



## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

If I suspect a loose or bad neutral I turn off the main immediately. Then i start at the meter and work my way back to the POCO connections and back towards the main after that if needed. Any damage that might happen while you are there is hopefully avoided by opening the main. If something happens to fry while you are there you are getting the blame so I like to cover my butt first off.


----------



## ceb58 (Feb 14, 2009)

220/221 said:


> Load one phase while testing voltage on the other.
> 
> A simple 1000W load will do.


I modified a heat gun for this. I put insulated alligator clips on the cord. Turn off main breaker and clip on to one leg coming in. Then test the volts on the other.


----------



## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

I isolate the circuit (s) affected and if it's more than one thats not a mwbc then I start checking from the line side of the meter back toward the poco. 










Took this one today with my new Iphone 4, it's the original wiring from 1991, HO's had two 1500 watt space heaters and two women getting ready at the same time every morning with hair dryers and hair irons, not to mention all the lights for three bedrooms and two bathrooms. They have been resetting the breaker almost everyday for years. Sometimes it would hold they said. The opted not to have me pull some dedicated circuits to each bedroom so they could have a dedicated plug in each room for their space heaters and for the bathroom to bring it up to code. The backstabbing seems to have held. 

Sorry, not trying to hijack.


----------



## ampman (Apr 2, 2009)

Bkessler said:


> I isolate the circuit (s) affected and if it's more than one thats not a mwbc then I start checking from the line side of the meter back toward the poco.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


thats not good


----------



## ampman (Apr 2, 2009)

start at the point of attachment from the poco many times it's them


----------



## ampman (Apr 2, 2009)

wait just looked again it has to be the blue box


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

ampman said:


> wait just looked again it has to be the blue box


No.. but the original installer did a sh!tty job of twisting the wires together and that is why the splice failed..

The blue box just confirms the OI was not qualified enough for a simple thing like splicing wires..


----------



## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

B4T said:


> No.. but the original installer did a sh!tty job of twisting the wires together and that is why the splice failed..


WHAT!? Over in another thread (Here) it is claimed that it is practically industry standard to make a joint like that.


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

InPhase277 said:


> WHAT!? Over in another thread (Here) it is claimed that it is practically industry standard to make a joint like that.


Chances are the OI tried to twist his wires together, but he didn't have enough bare copper to connect inside of the wire nut..

The conductors are twisted to hell.. the guy was over his head..

All he had to do was tape the splice and it would never of failed.. :laughing:


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Bkessler said:


> I isolate the circuit (s) affected and if it's more than one thats not a mwbc then I start checking from the line side of the meter back toward the poco.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Don't look like those wires are twisted at all...:laughing:


----------



## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

HARRY304E said:


> Don't look like those wires are twisted at all...:laughing:


 Sometimes when there are only two wires (same size),I do not twist them before installing the wirenut. 

More than two wires, or different size wires, I always twist them first.

I M H O that makes sense!


----------



## Malaking_TT (Dec 17, 2010)

That's a total hack job. The pigtails are too short and sloppy and they are in a blue box. Can't expect someone who works like that to know the proper way to install a wire nut.


----------



## pawirenut (May 28, 2008)

Bkessler said:


> I isolate the circuit (s) affected and if it's more than one thats not a mwbc then I start checking from the line side of the meter back toward the poco.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Exactly why i put each bedroom on their own circuit and use 12-2. Alot of people set up their bedrooms like it's a home inside a home with all the **** they plug in.

The last home i was in had those Edenpure space heaters in every bedroom.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

pawirenut said:


> Exactly why i put each bedroom on their own circuit and use 12-2. Alot of people set up their bedrooms like it's a home inside a home with all the **** they plug in.
> 
> The last home i was in had those Edenpure space heaters in every bedroom.



Better start running _two _20a circuits into each bedroom then. You'll need to wire it so they can vacuum the bedroom while the heater is running.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Malaking_TT said:


> That's a total hack job. The pigtails are too short and sloppy and they are in a blue box. Can't expect someone who works like that to know the proper way to install a wire nut.



It's not the Carlon box that's a dead give-away. It's because the recep is back-stabbed.


----------



## pawirenut (May 28, 2008)

480sparky said:


> Better start running _two _20a circuits into each bedroom then. You'll need to wire it so they can vacuum the bedroom while the heater is running.


A single 20 amp to each bedroom is the way i always wire a house. Most people today make their bedroom a home inside a home.

Mini fridges, desktop computers, giant flat screen tvs, space heaters, stereos, home theater systems, and all the little gadgets plus the lighting.


----------



## jefft110 (Jul 7, 2010)

Bkessler said:


> I isolate the circuit (s) affected and if it's more than one thats not a mwbc then I start checking from the line side of the meter back toward the poco.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Back stab+Ideal 'wing nut'+ blue box= Home Depot Hack trifecta.

As stated earlier: open main, clamp a 120v load at the meter and record L1 to N then L2 to N.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

jefft110 said:


> Back stab+Ideal 'wing nut'+ blue box= Home Depot Hack trifecta.


Not consider it's a Leviton device, and the world will end tomorrow. :laughing:




jefft110 said:


> As stated earlier: open main, clamp a 120v load at the meter and record L1 to N then L2 to N.


How does opening the main help? With no loads, the voltages will return to nominal.


----------



## jefft110 (Jul 7, 2010)

How does opening the main help? With no loads, the voltages will return to nominal.[/quote]

Open the main in case there is a loose neutral on the poco side. Clamp a 120v load on the load side of meter, take readings on the line side.


----------



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

pawirenut said:


> Exactly why i put each bedroom on their own circuit and use 12-2. Alot of people set up their bedrooms like it's a home inside a home with all the **** they plug in.
> 
> The last home i was in had those Edenpure space heaters in every bedroom.


 

I love competitors like you


----------



## den (Mar 28, 2009)

When I was a service man for poco, I always checked under meter first. If h.o. was home I would ask them to bounce the toaster a few times for a load that is unafected by voltage. any more than 1-2 volt change was a problem indicater. If I didn't see the voltage drop it was towards the house. Almost 75% of the time it was on our (poco) side and mostly where we were crimped on system neutral on the ones that were not jumpered directly to center lug of transformer. I had a modified hair dryer also.


----------



## pawirenut (May 28, 2008)

mcclary's electrical said:


> I love competitors like you


Why's that?


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

pawirenut said:


> Why's that?


I imagine because you price yourself out of competition.


----------



## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

Exactly. Think about a bid on a big house. PA is running one 20 amp circuit to each bedroom. The rest of us are running 14-2 to two bedrooms and back stabbing. I just cut down on wire cost, labor and used one AFCI while PA used two AFCI's, increased wire cost and increased labor costs. 

I think PA's method would be better but only in a T&M situation or the customer specs that in the bid.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

BBQ said:


> I imagine because you price yourself out of competition.



Maybe, if he's bidding tract/spec housing. But if you can get on the good side of a custom builder, many are more interested in quality than bottom-dollar price.


----------



## pawirenut (May 28, 2008)

I guess i should clarify that i meant i run dedicated circuits to each bedroom when i rewire houses.

I don't do tract house wiring at all i don't want to compete with guys working for pennies on the dollar.

I always tell my customers the reasoning behind running dedicated circuits (in my opinion) to each bedroom and offer them options.


----------



## pawirenut (May 28, 2008)

nitro71 said:


> Exactly. Think about a bid on a big house. PA is running one 20 amp circuit to each bedroom. The rest of us are running 14-2 to two bedrooms and back stabbing. I just cut down on wire cost, labor and used one AFCI while PA used two AFCI's, increased wire cost and increased labor costs.
> 
> I think PA's method would be better but only in a T&M situation or the customer specs that in the bid.


14-2 to two bedrooms?:blink: Holy chit batman!

I can hear it now "Johnny turn that damn space heater off your trippin the breaker I'm trying to play Madden!!":laughing:


----------



## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

pawirenut said:


> 14-2 to two bedrooms?:blink: Holy chit batman!
> 
> I can hear it now "Johnny turn that damn space heater off your trippin the breaker I'm trying to play Madden!!":laughing:


LOL, space heater? I would hope in a rewire of a place that some type of installed heating is being put in..


----------



## pawirenut (May 28, 2008)

nitro71 said:


> LOL, space heater? I would hope in a rewire of a place that some type of installed heating is being put in..


I have central air forced air heating and i use space heaters. I have one in my bedroom and office. It's very common for people to use space heaters.


----------



## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

Well if you're wiring for future space heater usage then I think that your method is spot on. I've never owned a space heater..


----------



## sfeyelectric (Dec 31, 2010)

Pa, i always do the same thing as long as customer doesn't mind additional fee.


----------



## Malaking_TT (Dec 17, 2010)

I wired my 3 bedroom house with 1 dedicated 15amp circuit to my bedroom and one 15 amp for the other 2 rooms.


----------



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

nitro71 said:


> LOL, space heater? I would hope in a rewire of a place that some type of installed heating is being put in..


 

I agree. ANywhere there's a space heater, I want a dedicated circuit. I'm not running #12 everywhere for nothing


----------



## danickstr (Mar 21, 2010)

I bid it for 14-2 then suggest 12-2 after I get the job to avoid heater issues.:thumbsup:

change order, ma'am?

But I dont see much need for 12-2 in most rooms. Seems like overkill to me.


----------



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

I just run 4/0 to everything:whistling2:


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

backstay said:


> I just run 4/0 to everything:whistling2:


 Can you rap that around receptacle's..:laughing::laughing:


----------



## EvilBunny (Feb 2, 2009)

What is back stabbing?

What's wrong with the blue boxes? Is it because they are cheap and not as sturdy? What do real ECs use instead of the blue boxes?

Just curious... I'm thinking I see a lot of "hack" work because that's all I see around here..


----------



## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

EvilBunny said:


> What is back stabbing?
> 
> What's wrong with the blue boxes? Is it because they are cheap and not as sturdy? What do real ECs use instead of the blue boxes?
> 
> Just curious... I'm thinking I see a lot of "hack" work because that's all I see around here..


Backstabbing is the use of the push-in connections, common in resi work as it was fast and cheap, but can be prone to failure. Look at the recept in the pics and you'll notice the wires are shoved into holes on the back of the device rather than put under screws. 

Nothing is "wrong" with the blue boxes per se. They are sold by the big box home improvement stores and can be used by DIY's. But a LOT of tract home builder's EC's use them as well to save on costs. 

They are not as sturdy as other types/brands, but they aren't as bad as some of the other plastic boxes out there. The old bakelite boxes tended to shatter and one brand of light gray box was notorious for having device screw holes that stripped out if you even looked at them wrong. 

"Real EC's" use different brands to avoid the stigma that they themselves created over the blue boxes.


----------



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

HARRY304E said:


> Can you rap that around receptacle's..:laughing::laughing:


Sure, just give it a hair cut and backstab one strand!:laughing:


----------

