# Service change panel relocation ,.AFCI's?



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

I am relocating an existing service to the front of a house from the rear of the house because the service entrance comes in the front of the basement all the circuits must be extended to the new location no new loads are being added.

Do i need to use AFCI breakers?

I say no ,

What say you?


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## CelticElect (Nov 17, 2011)

It is up to the Authority with Jurisdiction. This is a grey area, but what also might make your case is if the bathrooms are tied into the habital rooms. If they are, that would make a good argument for you with the inspector. It is hard to arc fault a gfci circuit. 

Good luck


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

CelticElect said:


> It is hard to arc fault a gfci circuit.
> 
> Good luck


What are you smoking?


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## 19kilosparky984 (Sep 14, 2011)

HARRY304E said:


> I am relocating an existing service to the front of a house from the rear of the house because the service entrance comes in the front of the basement all the circuits must be extended to the new location no new loads are being added.
> 
> Do i need to use AFCI breakers?
> 
> ...


Here that would fall under rehab and you wouldn't have to


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> What are you smoking?


He is trying to answer the ? Why dont go take a nap.:laughing:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

I say you need to contact our AHJ.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> He is trying to answer the ? Why dont go take a nap.:laughing:


Yes, but he's stating falsehoods. Just because he's "trying" doesn't mean I can't point that out.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Yes, but he's stating falsehoods. Just because he's "trying" doesn't mean I can't point that out.


That's great but you could put in the effort to reply in a friendly manner instead of stomping on the guy.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

What does your code book, and your local rules say Harry?

Thats whats important, not what a bunch of our opinions state.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> That's great but you could put in the effort to reply in a friendly manner instead of stomping on the guy.


Harry, asking him what's he's smoking is not stomping on him.


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## CelticElect (Nov 17, 2011)

*Cut me some slack*

I am a 100% commercial electrician and I was told/never attempted that it would not work to put an GFCI outlet on an arc fault breaker. If you can, I learned something today. Just like when I was an apprentice (family side job) and was scratchimg my head when I attempted to used a single pole AFCI's on a three wire. While the other circuit was a conventional breaker. The AFCI would constantly trip out! This forum is a great tool to learn thing and help people. I understand that this might be resi 101 for you, but if you never work with this stuff.


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

CelticElect said:


> I am a 100% commercial electrician and I was told/never attempted that it would not work to put an GFCI outlet on an arc fault breaker. If you can, I learned something today. Just like when I was an apprentice (family side job) and was scratchimg my head when I attempted to used a single pole AFCI's on a three wire. While the other circuit was a conventional breaker. The AFCI would constantly trip out! This forum is a great tool to learn thing and help people. I understand that this might be resi 101 for you, but if you never work with this stuff.


GFCI protection will work on an AFCI protected circuit.

In fact may of the AFCI breakers already incorporate GFPE protection in there AFCI circuits which has a trip threshold of 30 to 50 milliamps. AFCI breakers are not listed as GFPE devices though.

Also the reason that you can't use a single pole AFCI breaker on a multiwire branch circuit is due to the GFPE protection that is in the AFCI breakers.

Chris


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

HARRY304E said:


> I am relocating an existing service to the front of a house from the rear of the house because the service entrance comes in the front of the basement all the circuits must be extended to the new location no new loads are being added.
> 
> Do i need to use AFCI breakers?
> 
> ...


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

macmikeman said:


> What does your code book, and your local rules say Harry?
> 
> Thats whats important, not what a bunch of our opinions state.


Yes I know.

I thout it would An interesting discussion because I am exsteding all the circuits.

BBQ answered the question for the mass guys.:thumbup:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

HARRY304E said:


> Yes I know.
> 
> I thout it would An interesting discussion because I am exsteding all the circuits.
> 
> BBQ answered the question for the mass guys.:thumbup:


I don't think the State inspectors require it, but some local AHJs in Iowa do. it's a crap-shoot. So I make a call if I'm even 0.005% unsure.


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

Harry, would it be just as easy to leave the panel where it is, add a Meter w/ built in disconnect and run SE-R to the existing panel location?


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

thegoldenboy said:


> Harry, would it be just as easy to leave the panel where it is, add a Meter w/ built in disconnect and run SE-R to the existing panel location?


No the old fuse boxes are under a stairway 4' high..

So it all has to be moved to the front of the house.

I should have bid higher...woups...:blink::laughing:


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

HARRY304E said:


> No the old fuse boxes are under a stairway 4' high..
> 
> So it all has to be moved to the front of the house.
> 
> I should have bid higher...woups...:blink::laughing:


In the '11 that's legal... :whistling2:

They got rid of the "Headroom" requirements in Art. 110. 

Inconvienent for the end user, sure. Legal by own standards, absolutely.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

thegoldenboy said:


> In the '11 that's legal... :whistling2:
> 
> They got rid of the "Headroom" requirements in Art. 110.
> 
> Inconvienent for the end user, sure. Legal by own standards, absolutely.



This is the old set up in the back of the basement under the stairs..

And it is being upgraded to 200amps as you can see the meter is inside and the POCO wants it outside at the street side of the house.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Despite the technical specifics, old electrical equipment is like old cars to me

i enjoy these shots Harry.....~CS~


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

chicken steve said:


> Despite the technical specifics, old electrical equipment is like old cars to me
> 
> i enjoy these shots Harry.....~CS~


Yup there is some good stuff in that house.:thumbsup:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

CelticElect said:


> I am a 100% commercial electrician and I was told/never attempted that it would not work to put an GFCI outlet on an arc fault breaker. If you can, I learned something today. Just like when I was an apprentice (family side job) and was scratchimg my head when I attempted to used a single pole AFCI's on a three wire. While the other circuit was a conventional breaker. The AFCI would constantly trip out! This forum is a great tool to learn thing and help people. I understand that this might be resi 101 for you, but if you never work with this stuff.


They do make 2 pole AFCI breakers now so you can use them on a 3wire.

GFCI'S work fine on a AFCI breaker i have never had a problem with them.


Mc
mcclary is too smart for him self :laughing:don't let him give you are hard time..:thumbsup:


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## 19kilosparky984 (Sep 14, 2011)

HARRY304E said:


> They do make 2 pole AFCI breakers now so you can use them on a 3wire.
> 
> GFCI'S work fine on a AFCI breaker i have never had a problem with them.
> 
> ...


I think you still need a separate neutral for the 2 poles. You need 4 wire not 3


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

HARRY304E said:


> BBQ answered the question for the mass guys.:thumbup:


Not really, I posted the rules for MA.

But you extended the circuits so I think the extended part needs AFCI protection.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

BBQ said:


> Not really, I posted the rules for MA.
> 
> But you extended the circuits so I think the extended part needs AFCI protection.


Great that's only all the circuits .


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

19kilosparky984 said:


> I think you still need a separate neutral for the 2 poles. You need 4 wire not 3


I have to take a look at one and see..that maybe the case i dunno.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

HARRY304E said:


> Great that's only all the circuits .


In all seriousness I think you should just talk with the inspector and see what they think ............ none of what anyone here thinks makes a difference. 

You know how it work in MA, in one town you will be rewiring the whole house to please the inspector and in the next town it will be a drive by inspection.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

BBQ said:


> In all seriousness I think you should just talk with the inspector and see what they think ............ none of what anyone here thinks makes a difference.
> 
> You know how it work in MA, in one town you will be rewiring the whole house to please the inspector and in the next town it will be a drive by inspection.


Yeah i know he is on vacation till Tuesday ,the other inspector said he was fine with it but he said ask him because i cant tell him how to think..:laughing:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

BBQ said:


> In all seriousness I think you should just talk with the inspector and see what they think ............ none of what anyone here thinks makes a difference.
> 
> You know how it work in MA, in one town you will be rewiring the whole house to please the inspector and in the next town it will be a drive by inspection.


The best part is i was one of 5 bids and $1,000 more than the next highest price ,
But I was the only one that was willing to pull a permit.

This job is through a lawyer because the HO is senile to the point that she has home care 24/7 she is about 95 and comes down every day to ask me what I"m doing so i just tell her and she is happy.

this is all because the insurance company will not insure the home till the fuse boxes are gone .

Except for 2 circuits everything is #14 wire ,If you look at the pictures most of the fuses are 20 amps.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

HARRY304E said:


> Except for 2 circuits everything is #14 wire ,If you look at the pictures most of the fuses are 20 amps.


I can't tell you how many Boston brown stones I have worked on that have one 14 AWG K&T riser to each apartment always equipped with a 30 amp Edison base fuse.

In the 80s we did a ton of service changes in the Fenway and when we were done there would be a brand new 800 amp modular metering center with 30 unit meters and each with just a _single pole 15 amp breaker_.

Tenants would call the next day flipping out ........ the breaker keeps tripping. 

I would ask, did you try to watch TV, make toast and run a light at the same time? Well that is your problem right there.:laughing:

I have no idea how the 360+ units in 12 buildings were fixed, we were just hired to do the 12 services. :laughing:


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

BBQ said:


>



I would consider rule 3 to require the ckt to be brought to current code.
Extending all ckts is more than just a service/panel upgrade.

Still I would call the AHJ.:thumbsup:


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

leland said:


> I would consider rule 3 to require the ckt to be brought to current code.
> Extending all ckts is more than just a service/panel upgrade.
> 
> Still I would call the AHJ.:thumbsup:


So any time you do a service change and the wire does not reach the breaker is that considered extending the circuit? IMO Rule 3 is there to protect us from overzealous inspectors. 

What town Harry?


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

HARRY304E said:


> No the old fuse boxes are under a stairway 4' high..


I don't have the book in front of me but there is an exception that allows this panel to stay there.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

electricmanscott said:


> So any time you do a service change and the wire does not reach the breaker is that considered extending the circuit? IMO Rule 3 is there to protect us from overzealous inspectors.
> 
> What town Harry?


 Dorchester...

I only extended them a little..:whistling2:






































The inspector won't even notice..:laughing:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

that now looks like this.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

electricmanscott said:


> I don't have the book in front of me but there is an exception that allows this panel to stay there.


110.26(E) Exception: In existing dwelling units, service equipment
or panelboards that do not exceed 200 amperes shall be
permitted in spaces where the headroom is less than 2.0 m
(61⁄2 ft).


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

I ended up using 4/0 Aluminum...:laughing:

The supply house did not have any 2/0 copper in stock and it was to much cash and it would have been to long of a wait so i gave in..:laughing:


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

What's with the red tape? Any reply to the exception I mentioned? :confused1:


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

electricmanscott said:


> So any time you do a service change and the wire does not reach the breaker is that considered extending the circuit? IMO Rule 3 is there to protect us from overzealous inspectors.
> 
> What town Harry?



In the panel board,no.
But, I think what Harry has here is a tad more than a J-B above the Panel.
I would run it by the AHJ any way,or just wait for inspection and get an early gift!

Why make up the panel twice?


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

leland said:


> In the panel board,no.
> But, I think what Harry has here is a tad more than a J-B above the Panel.


That is how I am seeing it as well, it looks like Harry has a few 100' of new branch circuit wiring.


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

By the way harry, looks good.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

leland said:


> By the way harry, looks good.


I agree, nice job with the NMs on the running boards.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

electricmanscott said:


> What's with the red tape? Any reply to the exception I mentioned? :confused1:


Red tape for the hell of it..and is not really needed.

If i was going to do the job over i would have bought a 200 amp meter main and put the panel where the romex comes down and turns into the cans.

What was i thinking?:blink::laughing::laughing:

So i am going to let the Electrical inspector make the call i have all the AFCI's in the shop so if he wants them i can install them they have been payed for buy other jobs.


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

Keep us posted. Will be an interesting call.:thumbsup:


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

Looks good Harry. Nice clean job with the NM. :thumbsup:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

thegoldenboy said:


> Looks good Harry. Nice clean job with the NM. :thumbsup:


Thanks,,

Journeyman Electrician..:thumbup:


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