# 517 and FMC?



## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

SparkYZ said:


> Another guy on the crew is doing a doctors office TI. I told him all patient care areas have to be wired with "redundant grounding" meaning EMT and green wire, or HCF MC cable, or something of the sort.
> He roughed in the receptacles and lighting with aluminum flex, and is planning on pulling two green wires in each conduit run. I told him I don't believe that's kosher, as more than 6' of FMC doesn't count as an EGC, and the wiring method sheath or conduit has to qualify as an EGC in itself.
> 
> Also, out of each switch, is a stub up of standard 12-3 MC, for lights, is this legal?
> ...


A Dr's office does not make a "patient" care area. A Dr's office with a "patient exam room" is also not a patient care area. 
If these room are in a hospital then the AHU will most likely have it wired as a care area for liability issues. 
A clinic has rules that are less then a hospital but more then a Dr's office.
Treatment and care areas almost go hand in hand as a patient care area under NFPA 99. 
Look in the hospital facilities handbook.


An easy way to remember is if there is a "legally required stand by system" installed at the facility (auto start & connected in less then 10 seconds) and the location also has emergency outlets in the room.


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## B W E (May 1, 2011)

SparkYZ said:


> Another guy on the crew is doing a doctors office TI. I told him all patient care areas have to be wired with "redundant grounding" meaning EMT and green wire, or HCF MC cable, or something of the sort.
> He roughed in the receptacles and lighting with aluminum flex, and is planning on pulling two green wires in each conduit run. I told him I don't believe that's kosher, as more than 6' of FMC doesn't count as an EGC, and the wiring method sheath or conduit has to qualify as an EGC in itself.
> 
> Also, out of each switch, is a stub up of standard 12-3 MC, for lights, is this legal?
> ...


You are right about the the first part. The wiring method must qualify as an EGC independent of a separate wire-type EGC. FMC does not qualify, so go with EMT or HCF MC.

The second part, I believe is ok because exception 2 of 517.13(b) says that luminaires more than 7.5' above the floor do not need to have the redundant ground, because patients are not likely to come into contact with the fixtures if they are that high.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

SparkYZ said:


> Another guy on the crew is doing a doctors office TI. I told him all patient care areas have to be wired with "redundant grounding" meaning EMT and green wire, or HCF MC cable, or something of the sort.
> He roughed in the receptacles and lighting with aluminum flex, and is planning on pulling two green wires in each conduit run. I told him I don't believe that's kosher, as more than 6' of FMC doesn't count as an EGC, and the wiring method sheath or conduit has to qualify as an EGC in itself.
> 
> Also, out of each switch, is a stub up of standard 12-3 MC, for lights, is this legal?
> ...


He is not.

Read this.


> 348.60 Grounding and Bonding. If used to connect equipment
> where flexibility is necessary to minimize the transmission
> of vibration from equipment or to provide flexibility for
> equipment that requires movement after installation, an equipment
> ...





> 250.118 Types of Equipment Grounding Conductors.
> The equipment grounding conductor run with or enclosing
> the circuit conductors shall be one or more or a combination
> of the following:
> ...





> 517.12 Wiring Methods. Except as modified in this article,
> wiring methods shall comply with the applicable provisions
> of Chapters 1 through 4 of this Code.
> 517.13 Grounding of Receptacles and Fixed Electrical
> ...



Read all the definitions in article 517 because each area in a health care facility has different rules.


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## SparkYZ (Jan 20, 2010)

I'm talking about the actual exam rooms, not the waiting room or office. 

So the flex is in the wall, drywall is up and taped...any way to salvage the job?


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## B W E (May 1, 2011)

SparkYZ said:


> I'm talking about the actual exam rooms, not the waiting room or office.
> 
> So the flex is in the wall, drywall is up and taped...any way to salvage the job?


What if you were able to identify and separate the two EGCs. Use one and only that one to bond all of the boxes, and use the second one and only the second one to attach to devices? I think that accomplishes the same thing, right?

The last company I worked for did one in North Hollywood. We ran flex with 1 ground. Inspector made us come back and pull a second ground.


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## SparkYZ (Jan 20, 2010)

B W E said:


> What if you were able to identify and separate the two EGCs. Use one and only that one to bond all of the boxes, and use the second one and only the second one to attach to devices? I think that accomplishes the same thing, right?
> 
> The last company I worked for did one in North Hollywood. We ran flex with 1 ground. Inspector made us come back and pull a second ground.


That's his plan....how is it legal?


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

B W E said:


> What if you were able to identify and separate the two EGCs. Use one and only that one to bond all of the boxes, and use the second one and only the second one to attach to devices? I think that accomplishes the same thing, right?
> 
> The last company I worked for did one in North Hollywood. We ran flex with 1 ground. Inspector made us come back and pull a second ground.


Two EGCs in the flex won't do it. Harry posted the section in 517: "The
metal raceway system, or metallic cable armor, or sheath
assembly *shall itself qualify* as an equipment grounding
conductor in accordance with 250.118."

Going back to 250.118: Listed flexible metal conduit meeting all the following
conditions:
a. The conduit is terminated in listed fittings.
b. The circuit conductors contained in the conduit are
protected by overcurrent devices rated at 20 amperes
or less.
c. The combined length of flexible metal conduit and
flexible metallic tubing and liquidtight flexible metal
conduit in the same ground-fault current path does
not exceed 1.8 m (6 ft).
d. If used to connect equipment where flexibility is necessary
to minimize the transmission of vibration from
equipment or to provide flexibility for equipment that
requires movement after installation, an equipment
grounding conductor shall be installed.

You don't meet any of those criteria with flex in the walls. Hopefully you have a lenient inspector.

Why wasn't hospital grade MC used or something? :001_huh:


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## SparkYZ (Jan 20, 2010)

erics37 said:


> Two EGCs in the flex won't do it. Harry posted the section in 517: "The
> metal raceway system, or metallic cable armor, or sheath
> assembly *shall itself qualify* as an equipment grounding
> conductor in accordance with 250.118."
> ...


I told em from the beginning that this had to be done. It wasn't in the plans earlier, then a set with change orders came out.


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

Wirenuting said:


> A Dr's office does not make a "patient" care area.* A Dr's office with a "patient exam room" is also not a patient care area. *


I absolutely disagree. The definition of health care facility clearly indicates that a patient exam room in a doctors office is a patient care area and must comply with the applicable sections in Article 517.




> If these room are in a hospital then the AHU will most likely have it wired as a care area for liability issues.


Hospitals are most defiantly a heath care facility and again 517 applies. 



> A clinic has rules that are less then a hospital but more then a Dr's office.
> Treatment and care areas almost go hand in hand as a patient care area under NFPA 99.
> Look in the hospital facilities handbook.


There are different requirements for doctors offices, clinics and hospitals but they are all included in Article 517.




> An easy way to remember is if there is a "legally required stand by system" installed at the facility (auto start & connected in less then 10 seconds) and the location also has emergency outlets in the room.


None of this means anything as to whether or not a building or portion of a building is a heath care facility. A doctors or dentists office is not required to have an essential system, but they are defined as heath care facilities and must comply with the applicable sections of Article 517.

Chris


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

B W E said:


> What if you were able to identify and separate the two EGCs. Use one and only that one to bond all of the boxes, and use the second one and only the second one to attach to devices? I think that accomplishes the same thing, right?
> 
> The last company I worked for did one in North Hollywood. We ran flex with 1 ground. Inspector made us come back and pull a second ground.


Pulling a second ground does not accomplish the same thing as the metallic wiring method.

The rule in 517.13 is not really designed to provide a "redundant" ground so much as to provide the lowest impedance path possible for fault current and to make sure that we have the lowest potential between the metal equipment and other grounded objects.

Using a metal wiring method as the equipment ground is a much lower impedance fault current path then using an insulated equipment grounding conductor. That is the reason that 517.13 requires the use of a metal wiring method that itself qualifies as an equipment grounding conductor.

The in addition to the metal wiring method we are required to install an insulated copper equipment grounding conductor.

Chris


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

B W E said:


> The second part, I believe is ok because exception 2 of 517.13(b) says that luminaires more than 7.5' above the floor do not need to have the redundant ground, because patients are not likely to come into contact with the fixtures if they are that high.


That is not correct. The exception only allows you to omit the insulated equipment grounding conductor. You must still use a metallic wiring method that itself qualifies as an EGC.

Chris


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

raider1 said:


> I absolutely disagree. The definition of health care facility clearly indicates that a patient exam room in a doctors office is a patient care area and must comply with the applicable sections in Article 517.
> 
> Hospitals are most defiantly a heath care facility and again 517 applies.
> 
> ...


The AHJ can designate portions of their own facility as "non-patient care area's".

When was the last time you saw a line isolation monitor in a hospital kitchen?

You might have hospitals in your area that do not have stand-by systems, but we don't around here. 517 is only the start of what is required in a health care facility. 
Remember that 517 are the minimum requirements. And the AHJ can write procedures and plans to skirt around almost any requirements. Just ask a JCAHO inspector.


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

Wirenuting said:


> The AHJ can designate portions of their own facility as "non-patient care area's".


Patient care areas are defined in 517.2. 



> You might have hospitals in your area that do not have stand-by systems, but we don't around here. 517 is only the start of what is required in a health care facility.


Hospitals are only 1 type of health care facility. The definition of health care facility in 517.2 defines it as,

"Buildings or portions of buildings in which medical, dental, psychiatric, nursing, obstetrical, or surgical care are provided. Health care facilities include but are not limited to, hospitals, nursing homes, limited care facilities, clinics, medical and dental offices, and ambulatory care centers, whether permanent or movable."

So as you can see a doctors or dentists office is a health care facility.

Now not all health care facilities are required to have an essential system such as most doctors or dentist offices, but they are required to meet 517.13 for wiring in the patient care areas.

Chris


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## SparkYZ (Jan 20, 2010)

So basically if you don't use EMT, you'll have to use HCF for power and AC for lights?


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

SparkYZ said:


> So basically if you don't use EMT, you'll have to use HCF for power and AC for lights?


Yep pretty much.

Chris


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## bullmike (Jun 13, 2011)

*517.1*

In Southeastern New England 517 applies to Doctr's exam rooms as well as Hospitals. In Natick, Mass. a new DANA- FARBER institute required a receptacles in exam rooms and hallways were to be wired in "green MC".


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