# Help with Car charging stations



## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

I’m pricing out a job for a client but I’m unsure how to even proceed with the plan. 

I have 22 townhouse units with 22 garages across the rd. They are split into 4 and 3 unit buildings (same with the corresponding garages) The units are fully finished and panels maxed out @ 200 amps. The units also sit a solid 15’ below street level where the garages are. 

Running power from each unit to each garage across the street is near impossible. 

My only thought was to bring in dedicated underground services to each garage building from the utility. 

I’m trying to come up with a service configuration. It seems I may have to bring in a 200 amp dedicated service to each garage building and have a separate meter for each garage unit with its own panel rated for at least 70amps to cover the car charger and the move the existing garage door power, gfci, and light to it the new panel to a avoid having multiple branch circuits in each garage. 

Does this plan make sense? 


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## jw0445 (Oct 9, 2009)

Are these townhouses individually owned or rented? I'm assuming they pay their own electric regardless. How are the house meters laid out? What are the owners thoughts ?I would have these new services individually metered for each unit. There is the question if someone doesn't have an electric car why would he want a second bill. I'm not saying don't build it for all but these are things that need answers from the person paying you.


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## jw0445 (Oct 9, 2009)

Any chance there are conduits to the garages? Remove the old and pull in two 6's, an 8, and a 10 or bigger ?


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

jw0445 said:


> Are these townhouses individually owned or rented? I'm assuming they pay their own electric regardless. How are the house meters laid out? What are the owners thoughts ?I would have these new services individually metered for each unit. There is the question if someone doesn't have an electric car why would he want a second bill. I'm not saying don't build it for all but these are things that need answers from the person paying you.


They are individually owned. We had a meeting today with trustees. These were all the preliminary questions I had. It seems they want what they want and weren’t even bothered by these issues. Apparently, they haven’t been able to get a bid and were frustrated about it. It seems the board has had multiple meetings on this and apparently owners are on board. It’s not a small project and it’s only phase 1. Phase 2 will be identical for a total of 44 units. 

I went to the meeting to get a sense if they had any realization that we are looking at a 6 figure job. Just from my initial visual it won’t be under 250k. 

I’ll let them figure out the logistics. I just need to figure the path of least resistance on my end. 

It seems excessive but a service and meter for each garage seems like the logical thing to do. 

I could be ignorant to any other way of designing this. 


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

jw0445 said:


> Any chance there are conduits to the garages? Remove the old and pull in two 6's, an 8, and a 10 or bigger ?


There are pipes going to the garage but the issue is the panels are heavily loaded already. They don’t have gas it’s all electric. Like I said the unit drops 15’ below street (probably more) and are 40’ horizontally across from the garages. Id hate to depend on using those pipes. They were prepared to rip up trenches everywhere to get this done. I’m thinking there has to be another way. 

Everything is stoned, patio, stairs, trees, pools, amenities….it’s set on a golf course. I’d hate to get into tearing all this apart.


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## jw0445 (Oct 9, 2009)

Something to concider, a directional boring company may be your new best friend no matter where the power comes from.


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## jw0445 (Oct 9, 2009)

Had a 400 amp service to a new barn this summer. Directional boring was actually cheaper than a backhoe and sticks of 4" pvc. And there wasn't any restoration.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

jw0445 said:


> Had a 400 amp service to a new barn this summer. Directional boring was actually cheaper than a backhoe and sticks of 4" pvc. And there wasn't any restoration.


Never looked into it. 

In this situation the back of all garages are 10’ off the trees so this wouldn’t be too bad for trenching. It’s a tight area for any big equipment. 

So if you direction bore, does the machine pull the pipe through ? How does that work ?


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## jw0445 (Oct 9, 2009)

Yes the pipe is pulled through with the bore. It's on a reel. They can install whatever size you need and there isn't any coupling edges to get hung up on except for the ends. They direct the head of the bore for direction and depth. Only need to dig at the ends of the route to get the pipe down when the bore is completed and to couple on the sweeps and risers.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

jw0445 said:


> Yes the pipe is pulled through with the bore. It's on a reel. They can install whatever size you need and there isn't any coupling edges to get hung up on except for the ends. They direct the head of the bore for direction and depth. Only need to dig at the ends of the route to get the pipe down when the bore is completed and to couple on the sweeps and risers.


Sounds nice, definitely going to consider it.


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## CMP (Oct 30, 2019)

First check with the utility service planner, they may only allow one service per property.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

You should not be doing this. They should get themselves an engineer to figure this out. JMO


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Dennis Alwon said:


> You should not be doing this. They should get themselves an engineer to figure this out. JMO


I agree 100%. My experience with HOA or condo boards is that they want things that cannot be done or are unrealistic. They are always looking to save a buck and blame others when things go wrong. However, if the complex is a good customer then I would look into the design build aspect. It sounds like a nice job.
Here if you install a separate service on the garage you pay a higher rate and you will have to pay for the second drop.


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## jw0445 (Oct 9, 2009)

kb1jb1 said:


> Here if you install a separate service on the garage you pay a higher rate and you will have to pay for the second drop.


Around here PPL and PECO call it a GS1 (general service rate) which is higher than a RS1 rate (residential service)


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

Dennis Alwon said:


> You should not be doing this. They should get themselves an engineer to figure this out. JMO


This is is something I was considering. I wasn’t exactly sure what my first step is walking into larger projects. I can definitely handle it. Is this common for these type of projects. First thing, have it engineered by the board or owners. 


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

kb1jb1 said:


> I agree 100%. My experience with HOA or condo boards is that they want things that cannot be done or are unrealistic. They are always looking to save a buck and blame others when things go wrong. However, if the complex is a good customer then I would look into the design build aspect. It sounds like a nice job.
> Here if you install a separate service on the garage you pay a higher rate and you will have to pay for the second drop.


They def seem to want unrealistic things sometimes. On the positive, in my experience working for large property management companies has opened up many doors for me and has brought in the easiest fill-in work and also some of our largest jobs. After years of building trust with a handful of them, we hardly deal with them anymore they just link us straight with the boards. Estimates are rare also for jobs that fall under 2000-2500 I can’t tell you how many $250 light bulbs I’ve changed this year.


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## Slay301 (Apr 23, 2018)

You should check with your local utility most offer incentives/rebates that will pay for a majority of the work and equipment on a side note theres a back log of chargers currently available for purchase


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

Slay301 said:


> You should check with your local utility most offer incentives/rebates that will pay for a majority of the work and equipment on a side note theres a back log of chargers currently available for purchase


There’s a backlog of utility work also


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

There is a lot of work planning/estimating this stuff. Im a small company, how do I proceed with larger scopes like this. How do you guys estimate when you get jobs that need either design or extensive take off bids. 

I’ve been lucky to have some honest GC’s that helped direct me on larger projects And they’ve all worked out great. Made Money but more important got experience handed to me. 

Now that I’ve got these jobs in my portfolio I get similar requests but without the helping hand. Just prints, pages of contract agreements, etc. 

I want to take the next step but not sure how as a small shop trying to grow bigger. 


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Dennis is correct, they need an engineered plan. That’s why they can’t find anyone to bid. Who would even try to seat of your pants a possible 1/4 of a million dollar job?


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

I suppose I could hire the engineer also and charge them with that as a separate item? 

I would think offering this would make me look more capable and professional… 

Another thing about these communities. They don’t want to do anything. They just want to get it done and pay for it after they have a trusted EC. 


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

CMP said:


> First check with the utility service planner, they may only allow one service per property.


230.2 allows only one service to a building with a few exceptions, but you might be able to get around this if the new services are 3Ø. 

230.2(D). Different characteristics. Additional services shall be permitted for different voltages, frequencies or phases or for different uses such as different rate schedules.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

micromind said:


> 230.2 allows only one service to a building with a few exceptions, but you might be able to get around this if the new services are 3Ø.
> 
> 230.2(D). Different characteristics. Additional services shall be permitted for different voltages, frequencies or phases or for different uses such as different rate schedules.


We also use multiple services for adding off peak electrical hearing to a building. It’s charged at half price and is only energized for 8 hours(11 PM to 7 AM). Electric golf carts are sometimes done that way.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

@WronGun, I have to hand it to you, you get some good ones! 



WronGun said:


> We had a meeting today with trustees. These were all the preliminary questions I had. It seems they want what they want and weren’t even bothered by these issues. Apparently, they haven’t been able to get a bid and were frustrated about it.


They might come off that way but when ever people are saying money is no object, of course that is bullshit. One hundred percent of the time, once you get to a big enough project. Even for the very free-est spending customers. If it wasn't, they'd just give you a blank check. See if they'll go for that. 

They want this job to be simple but unfortunately it's not. I don't think the power distribution part of the work is necessarily out of electrician and into electrical engineer territory. You're going to be working within what's spelled out in the code and power company requirements. But it sounds like the site work will be trickier than the electrical part. The right engineering company or construction management company will be able to bring all the necessary expertise together to come up with a solid design, and advise the customer the cost. The design project will be five figures I'd bet, but they ought to be OK with that. 

Realistically I'd say your best bet would be to spend a little time to help them understand the complexity of the project and why you, like the others, will decline to bid, and recommend that they take this to an engineering / architect / construction management company to design, and ask that they give you first crack at the electrical work.


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## HertzHound (Jan 22, 2019)

Would a job like this require errors and omissions insurance?

What type of disconnect do they have now for the branch circuit feeding the garage? Is it just one circuit? There shouldn’t be multiple. Like one for a heater and one for lights/receptacle.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

HertzHound said:


> Would a job like this require errors and omissions insurance?
> 
> What type of disconnect do they have now for the branch circuit feeding the garage? Is it just one circuit? There shouldn’t be multiple. Like one for a heater and one for lights/receptacle.


It’s one circuit. Each garage has an gfci receptacle, garage door opener, and a light. 

I have pictures of some of the unit panels and I would need to verify this but it looks like it may be a double pole 20amp. 

I’m wondering if there is something minimal I can offer right off the bat with what they have and explain anything more would require an engineering firm, and big bags of money. 

They’ve already been told by other EC’s, extensive trenching, etc., etc. but no bids have come through, from what they say this has been on their list of priorities for 2 yrs now. They are certainly expecting a large price tag as they were talking about configuring this into a association loan with special assessments for each unit. 

If I can offer a minimal package I could probably still hit a grand slam as being the only bid, they may very well bite. 

Just trying to think outside the box. 

Technically, they could charge cars just with a regular outlet. I don’t even think they realize this. They are just assuming they need this “charging station”

The property management company requested I put a minimal package together. The absolute minimal and then offer higher levels. 

To be completely honest, I initially just reached out to this property management company in hopes to get another maintenance contract with all their high end communities. I had a meeting with them first and soon after they threw this on my lap as their first request. 

My actual goal is not exactly getting this project. Rather I’d like to be the only EC to steer them in the right direction, offer a minimal option if possible, and get in the door to service all their properties. After that, If they still want to go big then so be it. 


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

HertzHound said:


> Would a job like this require errors and omissions insurance?


From the contractor's perspective, their liability policy might not cover errors and omissions. So they might avoid work where they'd be unprotected, or put some verbage in the contract that releases them from liability. 

From the customer's perspective, any consulting type service you might want to require that the consultant has errors and omissions insurance, and even ask for a certificate of insurance.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

One thing that's kind of bothering me with this. How did they decide one day that everyone needs an EV charging station in their garage? 

Maybe one or two residents found out it would be a huge project to add it to their unit. So they figure let's do it for all, and share the cost of the site work. 

But, surely some of the residents want, and others don't. If it's done by the HOA, the ones that want basically are forced to subsidized the ones that do. That could mean there's going to be some bickering among the tenants that has to happen before this gets done. I guess it depends if the tenants will get worked up over a $5,000.00 charge for this, maybe not if they're sufficiently well heeled and the loan payment on that isn't too bad.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

WronGun said:


> It’s one circuit. Each garage has an gfci receptacle, garage door opener, and a light.
> I have pictures of some of the unit panels and I would need to verify this but it looks like it may be a double pole 20amp.


That makes sense. For practical purposes that is the most you could do without a panel in the garage. Of course it seems short sighted now, the cost of a 60A or 100A feeder to the garage wouldn't have been so bad in the big picture of the initial construction. 

It's possible they oversized the conduits in case there was ever a desire to upgrade, but I bet they just went cheap. 

Something to consider, you could install step up transformers at the house and step down transformers and panels in the garages and use the existing wire and get quite a bit more power in the garage over the existing feeder. That option would avoid the site work, and let those who want get it, those that don't leave it.


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

Along the lines of splatz thinking, if the conduits were sized up like say to an 1”, would it be less mayhem to upsize the 200 amp service to a 320 amp at the house and then re pull in some #4 copper to a sub panel? If the conduit is 1 1/4”, or up it would be even better as you could probably use #2 aluminum.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

splatz said:


> One thing that's kind of bothering me with this. How did they decide one day that everyone needs an EV charging station in their garage?
> 
> Maybe one or two residents found out it would be a huge project to add it to their unit. So they figure let's do it for all, and share the cost of the site work.
> 
> But, surely some of the residents want, and others don't. If it's done by the HOA, the ones that want basically are forced to subsidized the ones that do. That could mean there's going to be some bickering among the tenants that has to happen before this gets done. I guess it depends if the tenants will get worked up over a $5,000.00 charge for this, maybe not if they're sufficiently well heeled and the loan payment on that isn't too bad.


I don’t know but I work in a lot of very nice upper end communities. This one was on another level, the 2 units I walked in resembled a fine arts museum [emoji2371] maybe that’s just how they are. You can’t buy a back yard shed in this town for under a million. 


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

If it in fact is a double pole 20 amp. Would a 4 circuit mini sub be capable to power up a garage door, an led light, a gfci receptacle and a 240V 20 amp car charging inlet as a minimal option. 
I’d have to do a calculation and figure the load. 

10’s would be ideal. 


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

I bet there is both a lawyer and an accountant on the condo board and they are kicking around the idea to get all this subsidized by the green new deal or some other program. It supposedly raises the property values and since everybody has to go to EVs , they will be set. Probably if they don't get the desired money grants the whole idea will be put off for another year.


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## Quickservice (Apr 23, 2020)

CMP said:


> First check with the utility service planner, they may only allow one service per property.


Yeah! That bit me in the butt once early in my career.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

splatz said:


> Something to consider, you could install step up transformers at the house and step down transformers and panels in the garages and use the existing wire and get quite a bit more power in the garage over the existing feeder. That option would avoid the site work, and let those who want get it, those that don't leave it.


 This might be the best idea. 

If you set a 10KVA 600 - 120/240 transformer at the panel and a similar one in the garage, you'd have 16.67 amps on the 600 side and 41.7 on the 120/240 side. 

On the downside, a 10 KVA transformer is about 16" high, 14" wide and 10" deep and it'll weigh about 150 lbs. Noise will be low. 

I would use a 40 or 45 amp breaker in the panel since the #12 wire will be the weak point.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

WronGun said:


> If it in fact is a double pole 20 amp. Would a 4 circuit mini sub be capable to power up a garage door, an led light, a gfci receptacle and a 240V 20 amp car charging inlet as a minimal option.
> I’d have to do a calculation and figure the load.
> 
> 10’s would be ideal.


I am not good with load calculations but I guess you start with a continuous load of 20A @ 240V from the charging station. And, I think I'm done with my load calculation. 

I would be too worried about people getting pissed that their car's not going to be charged in time for tomorrow's commute.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

WronGun said:


> If it in fact is a double pole 20 amp. Would a 4 circuit mini sub be capable to power up a garage door, an led light, a gfci receptacle and a 240V 20 amp car charging inlet as a minimal option.
> I’d have to do a calculation and figure the load.
> 
> 10’s would be ideal.


If they bumped up to #10's, #10 ampacity 30 amps, 80% of 30 amps = 24 amps, 24 amps at 600 volts = 60 amps at 240 volts so with transformers, now you're talking.


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

If the 200 amp service is already maxed out, then without a load shedding device the car charger will be tripping the main.
I’m not going to be happy if I’m trying to make a meatloaf in the oven and I can’t charge my car.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

kb1jb1 said:


> I bet there is both a lawyer and an accountant on the condo board


Good point! 

Run away!


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

460 Delta said:


> If the 200 amp service is already maxed out, then without a load shedding device the car charger will be tripping the main.
> I’m not going to be happy if I’m trying to make a meatloaf in the oven and I can’t charge my car.


That would be balanced out by the enjoyment of watching the PUCOs transformers explode..........


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

micromind said:


> That would be balanced out by the enjoyment of watching the PUCOs transformers explode..........


That’s actually kinda scary. I slammed the knives in on a primary metered system that had a floating full Delta bank. It was fine for about 10 seconds then the circulating current took off and the rr rrr rrrr RRRRR RRRRRR RRRRRR!!!!! sound freaked me out. I should have let them go and explode, but I pulled out the knives with the extendo and the current was so high I didn’t think the arc was going to extinguish on B phase knife and it was close to flashing over to another phase. I closed up the stick and stated I’m done, you’ll need to hire a private line gang to fix this.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

No wonder no one is bidding this. 

I’m sending over a 1,200,000 estimate. Then I’ll figure it out once it’s signed and 20% is received 


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

WronGun said:


> No wonder no one is bidding this.
> 
> I’m sending over a 1,200,000 estimate. Then I’ll figure it out once it’s signed and 20% is received
> 
> ...


If they sign it you'll be so pissed you didn't ask for $1,500,000


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## CMP (Oct 30, 2019)

If the utility came back and informed you it will be $ 750K to upgrade the primary from 5 miles away and change out the transformers in the complex to serve the new loads, you would be more than pissed.

Everyone is sold on going green, but hardly anyone understands the the implications, including brandon.


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## Forge Boyz (Nov 7, 2014)

CMP said:


> If the utility came back and informed you it will be $ 750K to upgrade the primary from 5 miles away and change out the transformers in the complex to serve the new loads, you would be more than pissed.


This is why you always exclude utility fees from your proposals.

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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

CMP said:


> If the utility came back and informed you it will be $ 750K to upgrade the primary from 5 miles away and change out the transformers in the complex to serve the new loads, you would be more than pissed.
> 
> Everyone is sold on going green, but hardly anyone understands the the implications, including brandon.


I wouldn’t attempt this job without the utility. That is always my first stop. 

Even for resi UG services. I always talk to the utility designer before anything. 

I have a few open work orders for UG upgrades. 1 of them requires the shut down of 4 homes and a new transformer. Needless to say we will probably be waiting a bit before starting this job. 

I will at least reach out to the utility and see what’s possible. The design wouldn’t be hard. Back of the garages are 10’ off the street. It would be a straight trench and T off to each building. The question is if they will allow it, and if the power demand is available. 

These situations I’m sure will be becoming more and more common. 


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## CMP (Oct 30, 2019)

Forge Boyz said:


> This is why you always exclude utility fees from your proposals.


I wouldn't even waste time quoting the project without having a commitment from the utility, and I would first require a commitment from the customer to pay for the cost of a load schedule and the required meetings with the service planner and the city planners. If the customer is not in for the upfront feasible costs, then neither am I.

Just negating these costs as not my responsibility, is just foolishness. They will kill the project before the first shovel hits the earth when presented as a surprise. I have better things to do with my time.

Like most of the other contractors they contacted. Someone has already mentioned that this should be engineered up front. If they don't want that, they can't afford the project.


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## CMP (Oct 30, 2019)

WronGun said:


> I will at least reach out to the utility and see what’s possible. *The design wouldn’t be hard.* Back of the garages are 10’ off the street. *It would be a straight trench and T off to each building.* The question is if they will allow it, and if the power demand is available.


You seem to be negating the standard rule of one service per property. To me that would indicate a main service upgrade to everyone that desired a charger, and a new directional bore to each garage with a subpanel and rewiring of the existing garage wiring. That's a bit more than a straight trench with some branches.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

CMP said:


> You seem to be negating the standard rule of one service per property. To me that would indicate a main service upgrade to everyone that desired a charger, and a new directional bore to each garage with a subpanel and rewiring of the existing garage wiring. That's a bit more than a straight trench with some branches.


That’s why I mentioned “if it’s allowed”. I’m not familiar with this rule since I’ve never had to look into it. This could be an issue in the future if electric vehicles become mainstream. 


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

CMP said:


> You seem to be negating the standard rule of one service per property. To me that would indicate a main service upgrade to everyone that desired a charger, and a new directional bore to each garage with a subpanel and rewiring of the existing garage wiring. That's a bit more than a straight trench with some branches.


If each garage service were 3Ø, then 2 services would be allowed. 

Using a 3Ø PUCO transformer and 2 legs of a Y to each garage would be questionable at best, you'd likely need to have actual 3Ø services.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

WronGun said:


> That’s why I mentioned “if it’s allowed”. I’m not familiar with this rule since I’ve never had to look into it. This could be an issue in the future if electric vehicles become mainstream.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It's NEC 230.2

The PUCO might have its own rules as well.

If you go the 2 transformer route, there's a chance that the existing services are 120/208 single phase. That would affect the first transformer but not the second one.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Forge Boyz said:


> This is why you always exclude utility fees from your proposals.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


I just learned the hard way. I did a job last year and there were no utility fees. Now I am on a very similar job and I was just informed that there is a $4,500.00 fee. The utility implemented the fee last month. Now I have to do a dance to see if I can get out of it.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

CMP said:


> You seem to be negating the standard rule of one service per property. To me that would indicate a main service upgrade to everyone that desired a charger, and a new directional bore to each garage with a subpanel and rewiring of the existing garage wiring. That's a bit more than a straight trench with some branches.


Here it is one drop per building. We can have one drop to the house and a second drop to a detached garage. Often times in commercial properties they have a service drop to each unit provided they have a masonry fire wall separating each unit


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

kb1jb1 said:


> Here it is one drop per building. We can have one drop to the house and a second drop to a detached garage. Often times in commercial properties they have a service drop to each unit provided they have a masonry fire wall separating each unit


Well doesn’t a detached garage qualify as another building ? 


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

WronGun said:


> Well doesn’t a detached garage qualify as another building ?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes, one service drop on the house and a second service drop on the garage. But you pay for the second drop.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

WronGun said:


> Well doesn’t a detached garage qualify as another building ?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I missed that part.....yes, a detached garage is indeed a separate structure and 230.2 does not apply.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

Well this thread has definitely shed some light on the subject. I’m not going to waste any more time on it. 

I’m sending a detailed letterhead explaining the situation in and my willingness to take this on. 

I’ve included a fee for my preliminary investigation for the project in coordination with the utility provider engineers. 

An additional fee for a private engineering firm to come in. 

Exclusions for any utility fees. 

And my recommendation not to go “minimal”. 

I’m going to leave that right there. If they are serious they can pay up. 

At the very least they scratch the project and the project management company takes me under contract. I’m guessing I’m the only one who’ll be sending a detailed plan of action to actually proceed with this. 


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

When you say the 200 amp panels are “maxed out”, how do you know? Did you do a load calc, or get a load demand from the utility?


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

backstay said:


> When you say the 200 amp panels are “maxed out”, how do you know? Did you do a load calc, or get a load demand from the utility?


I didn’t do a load calc, not going to waste my time. I don’t want anything to do with carrying power from the panel. The land is tightly packed and oddly graded, the units are tightly sealed and finished. The units have big patios in the rear and this building had a massive pool right off the patio. This is in the outskirts of Boston, everything it tightly packed. 

The panels are not only full In regards to spaces. They each carry (2) 50 amp ovens, (2) 60amp for the hvac, (4) 30 amp breakers, and the rest of the spaces are full with SP circuits. Granted could it carry an additional load ? Possibly 

It’s just not going to be my design. I rather play way out in the street away from the units and run new lines, new meters, a panel for each garage. 

The thing with communities is they are willing to pay premium to not intrude into 44 separate units. I’ve learned this over the years.

If there is away to get the job done outside of the living spaces, they go with that. The property management companies also push this as it turns into a logistical nightmare otherwise, needless to say also for the contractor. 

If anyone unit owners has issues with an additional meter bill if they don’t have an electric vehicle. They get a meter socket anyways and we blank it. 

I would have to check with AHJ on the power configuration. Technically all 4 garages are 1 structure. If unit owners opt. out Is it acceptable to maintain their existing feed from another service to their garage unit, otherwise everyone would have to be on board. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalkki hi hi


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Do you have different power rate schedules like we do? Ours are for heat or cooling. If you do, I guess a meter and panel to each garage would be the answer. I would think they would want to charge at a reduced rate anyway.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

backstay said:


> Do you have different power rate schedules like we do? Ours are for heat or cooling. If you do, I guess a meter and panel to each garage would be the answer. I would think they would want to charge at a reduced rate anyway.


Something to look into. 


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## Slay301 (Apr 23, 2018)

Sell them non grid tied solar on the roofs and batteries and inverters to charge the car badaboom bada bing


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## Viggmundir (Sep 13, 2019)

kb1jb1 said:


> Yes, one service drop on the house and a second service drop on the garage. But you pay for the second drop.


I did a job this past spring that was a second meter on a residential property. New service for a new shop the customer put up for his honey business, so wanted it metered separately from the house. POCO would do it, but the second drop was an instant 80% premium over what an equivalent single drop would have costed.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

Viggmundir said:


> I did a job this past spring that was a second meter on a residential property. New service for a new shop the customer put up for his honey business, so wanted it metered separately from the house. POCO would do it, but the second drop was an instant 80% premium over what an equivalent single drop would have costed.


you could always buy your own meter and install it between the residence and the business. A pic of the business meter each month should suffice for tax purposes


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Slay301 said:


> Sell them non grid tied solar on the roofs and batteries and inverters to charge the car badaboom bada bing


Then call me to help install!

Actually, PM me the address and I’ll do a PV Watts look and see what the capacity is.

If you average 4 hours of sun per day, a napkin estimate would be 500 sq feet of modules per charger…that’s wrong. 8 to 10, 400 watt modules would be 160 to 200 sq feet.

About $30,000 per garage. Then they get tax credits off that and any other incentives.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Slay301 said:


> Sell them non grid tied solar on the roofs and batteries and inverters to charge the car badaboom bada bing





backstay said:


> Then call me to help install!
> Actually, PM me the address and I’ll do a PV Watts look and see what the capacity is.


@WronGun posted Boston above, that should be close enough to get in the ball park...

I would really like to see what it would take to do this with solar, it's an excellent question 

Let's figure on a Tesla Model S which a quick search says takes about 77kWh to charge. Store it all in batteries in the garage, charging all day so the car can charge overnight. 

With solar, and Boston weather, I guess you'd actually need a lot more than that in the batteries so you can get through a rainy / snowy spell. 

The batteries will have to be able to put out at least 30A @ 240 / 7200W to charge in a timely manner. 

*Now, compare charging those batteries with solar to charging the batteries from that 20A circuit all day! Charging batteries from the 20A MWBC* might actually be a reasonable solution. You could even probably work out a transfer switch to run the house off those batteries, backfeeding over the garage circuit. 

And if there are two cars in the family, we know one of them is going to have to be gas. 

I believe it will turn out that even these rich people can't afford enough land in Boston to support the solar farm it would take to drive to work on electric power. 

Maybe a small nuclear reactor in their garage?


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

I figured 33kW on average.

About $20,000 for batteries and $8,500 for the rest(modules, charge controller, mounts and electrical. If there is a DC direct charger, no inverter is needed. That not only saves money, but saves on losses through efficiency.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

backstay said:


> I figured 33kW on average.


That sounds reasonable, that would paint a much different picture. I am figuring charging for 100 miles / day as a practical minimum. I didn't find an estimate miles-per-kWh number for the Tesla.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

splatz said:


> That sounds reasonable, that would paint a much different picture. I am figuring charging for 100 miles / day as a practical minimum. I didn't find an estimate miles-per-kWh number for the Tesla.


I came to that by looking a 66kW battery and only needing to charge it at half on average. Complete by the seat of my pants. I have no idea what the average charge capacity really is.


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## WannabeTesla (Feb 24, 2020)

Fellas, fellas... all this brainstorming and the answer has been here all along- generators to charge the batteries. 

Seriously, though, I'm still curious to know the existing conduit size/type even though it's been ruled out.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

WannabeTesla said:


> Fellas, fellas... all this brainstorming and the answer has been here all along- generators to charge the batteries.
> 
> Seriously, though, I'm still curious to know the existing conduit size/type even though it's been ruled out.


Don’t be a naysayer, I’m about ready to start ordering parts for Wrongun. Just need to do the site survey via google earth and we will be golden. Bet we could get a few meetups from members and put the system in for him!


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

I am getting confused because I might not be following the conversation correctly. Are yous guys proposing to install solar panels to charge a battery system to charge an EV? Is there enough roof space for panels and clear, accessible wall space for the batteries? It seems that it would be more feasible to install meters and panels as originally thought out.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

splatz said:


> @WronGun posted Boston above, that should be close enough to get in the ball park...
> 
> I would really like to see what it would take to do this with solar, it's an excellent question
> 
> ...


Like a NAQUADAH reactor?


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

WannabeTesla said:


> Fellas, fellas... all this brainstorming and the answer has been here all along- generators to charge the batteries.
> 
> Seriously, though, I'm still curious to know the existing conduit size/type even though it's been ruled out.


It might turn out that a second Tesla is cheaper than a battery bank or the second service, charge them at 20A and drive them every other day.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

kb1jb1 said:


> I am getting confused because I might not be following the conversation correctly. Are yous guys proposing to install solar panels to charge a battery system to charge an EV? Is there enough roof space for panels and clear, accessible wall space for the batteries? It seems that it would be more feasible to install meters and panels as originally thought out.


Agreed, lol 

Minimal roof space and lots of shade [emoji41]


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

They ended up approving my preliminary work estimate [emoji2359] 

Let you know if I can add a 2,200 amps to the grid, each service would need to be a minimum of 70 amps, engineers will probably go over. 


I Broke it up into 4 proposals 

1. Investigative/Utility 
2. Engineering
3. Building Department/Planning/Approvals 
4. Project Bid & Contract 

It’s mind boggling that they want to proceed. They’ll be pretty deep in before even getting my bid.

The only downside is the utility provider In this area. I currently have 3-4 open work orders with them that are 1-2 months old and tagged as urgent. Zilch

If all goes the project would be at least 6 months out. 



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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

WannabeTesla said:


> Fellas, fellas... all this brainstorming and the answer has been here all along- generators to charge the batteries.
> 
> Seriously, though, I'm still curious to know the existing conduit size/type even though it's been ruled out.


I don’t know why but I rarely consider this route with anything old and underground that’s more than 30’ shed raceway. 

And never considerate for a service. 

If it’s questioned I’m pretty straight forward. You want us to do it, then it’s all going to be new. 


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## Viggmundir (Sep 13, 2019)

Almost Retired said:


> you could always buy your own meter and install it between the residence and the business. A pic of the business meter each month should suffice for tax purposes


Yes you could. In my case he wanted 200A at the shop. Everything is electric heat. So it was set a pole and run U/G to the shop, or dig up all the U/G to the house and do a 400A service to send 200A to each. Xformer needed to be upsized the same either way. It was easier to do the second service.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

Viggmundir said:


> Yes you could. In my case he wanted 200A at the shop. Everything is electric heat. So it was set a pole and run U/G to the shop, or dig up all the U/G to the house and do a 400A service to send 200A to each. Xformer needed to be upsized the same either way. It was easier to do the second service.


So Im seeing a lot of mentions of electric heat in the upper US as well as CA. Is that actually common? I always thought it would be gas, or fuel oil due to cost


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Almost Retired said:


> So Im seeing a lot of mentions of electric heat in the upper US as well as CA. Is that actually common? I always thought it would be gas, or fuel oil due to cost


Electric storage heat is half the price($0.06) of regular electric and cheaper than propane at $1.20 a gallon.


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## Quickservice (Apr 23, 2020)

Most home owners I have encounter had no clue how much power was required to charge an EV.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

backstay said:


> Electric storage heat is half the price($0.06) of regular electric and cheaper than propane at $1.20 a gallon.


ok. 
electric storage heat
there is another term that im not familiar with LOL


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## Quickservice (Apr 23, 2020)

Almost Retired said:


> ok.
> electric storage heat
> there is another term that im not familiar with LOL


Me either.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Almost Retired said:


> ok.
> electric storage heat
> there is another term that im not familiar with LOL





Quickservice said:


> Me either.


Me either 

Electric Storage Heaters Advantages and Disadvantages (house-energy.com)


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## Quickservice (Apr 23, 2020)

splatz said:


> Me either
> 
> Electric Storage Heaters Advantages and Disadvantages (house-energy.com)


Interesting that there is small print in there that says storage heaters provide no energy savings.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

splatz said:


> Me either
> 
> Electric Storage Heaters Advantages and Disadvantages (house-energy.com)


and again . . . . now i know 

I love this site !!


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

Quickservice said:


> Interesting that there is small print in there that says storage heaters provide no energy savings.


In this instance they are using/charging them during off peak hours only and so they get a kWH price break (maybe its a demand meter? idk)


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Electric storage heating is the cheapest heat source around here. Ground source heat pumps are cheaper to run but installation is much more. They charge from 11 PM to 7 AM at half the normal rate. Offpeak is about $15 per million btu’s. Propane is $23 at $2 gallon. They talk about heat loss, but that is BS. They lose heat into the room, its not lost. There are central units(38kW) and room units 3-10kW. I’ve installed many of each.









Homeowners - Steffes


Peak Performance for Long-Term Savings Whether you’re looking to heat a single room or your entire home, Steffes offers several products that utilize our




www.steffes.com


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## WannabeTesla (Feb 24, 2020)

WronGun said:


> If it’s questioned I’m pretty straight forward. You want us to do it, then it’s all going to be new.


I just like looking at what was done previously. I get insights that way. Well, i like to think i do, anyway.


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## WannabeTesla (Feb 24, 2020)

backstay said:


> Don’t be a naysayer, I’m about ready to start ordering parts for Wrongun. Just need to do the site survey via google earth and we will be golden. Bet we could get a few meetups from members and put the system in for him!


I'm in. Start Monday at 8?


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

Quickservice said:


> Most home owners I have encounter had no clue how much power was required to charge an EV.


They also have no clue what the adapters cost. Lost one job after the dealer gave my customer a $850 price go move up to a 20 amp 240v unit. 


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## Quickservice (Apr 23, 2020)

Almost Retired said:


> In this instance they are using/charging them during off peak hours only and so they get a kWH price break (maybe its a demand meter? idk)


I guess the reason us hillbillys have never heard of them is because we have never had "off peak hours," only a flat rate.


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## Viggmundir (Sep 13, 2019)

Almost Retired said:


> So Im seeing a lot of mentions of electric heat in the upper US as well as CA. Is that actually common? I always thought it would be gas, or fuel oil due to cost


Very common where I am. Natural gas is only available in town, and even there lots of houses are all electric. I'm 15ish miles from town. Our electric is $.08983/kWh. No peak demand here, all flat rate. Propane is more expensive, though I'm not sure exactly how much more. I think fuel oil is also more pricey. 95% of the new services that I've done are 200A services. 100A services would be for a non-winterized cottage. Most houses around here have a 20kW furnace, some are 25kW.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Viggmundir said:


> Very common where I am. Natural gas is only available in town, and even there lots of houses are all electric. I'm 15ish miles from town. Our electric is $.08983/kWh. No peak demand here, all flat rate. Propane is more expensive, though I'm not sure exactly how much more. I think fuel oil is also more pricey. 95% of the new services that I've done are 200A services. 100A services would be for a non-winterized cottage. Most houses around here have a 20kW furnace, some are 25kW.


In the US it's about $0.14 average with a lot of variation between $0.11 and $0.23 (with outlier Hawaii at $0.33) (link) due to state energy policies / regulation, state taxes, and differences in delivery costs. Propane and oils are not too far apart in cost per BTU but just about always lower than regular electric resistive / baseboard heat. Where it's available, utility natural gas is a lot lower. Where it's available, coal is lower than natural gas. All prices are subject to considerable volatility, right now they're way up due to Biden's changes in energy policy, US production is down. 

Heat pumps (mini split type and geothermal) are able to move up to 4x as many BTUs per kwh as resistive heat when they are running efficiently. (The geothermal pretty much always runs efficiently, the mini-splits only down to a certain temperature.) I think most places that's going to be the cheapest BTU and a fair bit of the country has a climate where the mini splits can run efficiently all year. I think these things are a game changer.


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## Viggmundir (Sep 13, 2019)

splatz said:


> In the US it's about $0.14 average with a lot of variation between $0.11 and $0.23 (with outlier Hawaii at $0.33) (link) due to state energy policies / regulation, state taxes, and differences in delivery costs. Propane and oils are not too far apart in cost per BTU but just about always lower than regular electric resistive / baseboard heat. Where it's available, utility natural gas is a lot lower. Where it's available, coal is lower than natural gas. All prices are subject to considerable volatility, right now they're way up due to Biden's changes in energy policy, US production is down.
> 
> Heat pumps (mini split type and geothermal) are able to move up to 4x as many BTUs per kwh as resistive heat when they are running efficiently. (The geothermal pretty much always runs efficiently, the mini-splits only down to a certain temperature.) I think most places that's going to be the cheapest BTU and a fair bit of the country has a climate where the mini splits can run efficiently all year. I think these things are a game changer.


Thanks for the breakdown! Natural gas is cheaper for heating here as well, but is generally not available in rural areas. Larger towns and cities would use it quite a bit though. The electric rate I gave is just for my province(to you it would be a state). It varies across Canada. Some provinces would have on/off peak rates and such. Here in Manitoba, most of our power comes from hydro dam generation. Our climate is generally colder then yours, so the heat pumps aren't quite as efficient, but if I ever get around to putting central A/C in my house, I think I would want a heat pump style. I didn't realize heat pumps moved that much more BTUs, so today I learned something new!


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## BillF (Mar 24, 2021)

jw0445 said:


> Something to concider, a directional boring company may be your new best friend no matter where the power comes from.


When I lived in a townhome, the electric utility needed to replace the underground power system a couple years after we had all the parking lots repaved. 
The entire job was done with directional drilling and not a bit of the parking lots was disturbed. The person who invented this process deserves all the royalties that I hope he got.


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## SWDweller (Dec 9, 2020)

Diving down with the sun behind me and not reading all of the posts.

How creative is your utility? Could you install remote metering and tie it to the customer meter?
One electric bill per customer would be the only way I would consider the project. Know anyone really well in the POCO? Your going to be coloring outside the lines on this one.

I am still having a hard time about walking across the street to my garage? Then comes ventilation issues with all of the cars and batteries, you did say below grade. I have done parking garages with 50 hp fresh air fans for underground parking. With EM back up et all. 
Rain water and flooding comes to mind.

I like challenges, this could be fun if you could come up with a metering solution. Fun as in being the expert that found a workable solution where you get your new home from your intelligence. 

I played with an HOA for over an year before they figured out that they did not have the legal rights to make a area of land into a 2000 amp 480 service yard for EV charging.


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## retcec (Oct 3, 2018)

WronGun said:


> I’m pricing out a job for a client but I’m unsure how to even proceed with the plan.
> 
> I have 22 townhouse units with 22 garages across the rd. They are split into 4 and 3 unit buildings (same with the corresponding garages) The units are fully finished and panels maxed out @ 200 amps. The units also sit a solid 15’ below street level where the garages are.
> 
> ...


Can the SE handle a panel upgrade? 225 Amp panel, or 200 with more spaces?


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

SWDweller said:


> Diving down with the sun behind me and not reading all of the posts.
> 
> How creative is your utility? Could you install remote metering and tie it to the customer meter?
> One electric bill per customer would be the only way I would consider the project. Know anyone really well in the POCO? Your going to be coloring outside the lines on this one.
> ...


No ventilation with sealed batteries.


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## Chuck99z28 (Dec 4, 2020)

I'm not an electrician, I do data comms design/build.
We do a quote for a quote. Basically a quote the customer funds to get the design/cost/specs/engineering and the cost to do the actual job.
The engineering part is up front.

And if you're gonna do that. How about some solar panels on the garages, charging local batteries forget about any new meters.

Sorry to butt in, just wanted to toss out some fresh ideas.


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## Quickservice (Apr 23, 2020)

Chuck99z28 said:


> I'm not an electrician, I do data comms design/build.
> We do a quote for a quote. Basically a quote the customer funds to get the design/cost/specs/engineering and the cost to do the actual job.
> The engineering part is up front.
> 
> ...


Very difficult to do solar panels around here. Huge trees shading our houses (That we love and will not cut down), Mountains, and ridges. Sun comes up late and goes down early.


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## Quickservice (Apr 23, 2020)

Not very encouraging.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Quickservice said:


> Not very encouraging.


Hilarious actually! Every new technology has a learning curve. That’s why you should always let others lead the way.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

I am a FIRM believer in "Never buy the first model of anything, anywhere, ever"


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## CMP (Oct 30, 2019)

Remember Exploding Airbags? their still recalling them, for haw many years?
Batteries, chargers and EV's won't be too much difference.


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