# up front money to wire new house



## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Good business dictates that you get money down (you're not a finance company, after all), but that's definitely not traditional when doing work for GC's. The best you can do is try. If you get an objection, you have a decision to make... do the work anyhow or move on to other pastures. 

Where are you at, by the way? I'm in Chambersburg.


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

He is right around the corner looking to steal your market share with Craigs list ads.


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## trademan (Mar 29, 2009)

hey md. i'm in roxbury area


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Your state laws may restrict you to a smaller percentage or a maximum dollar amount.

Seek legal counsul.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

trademan said:


> hey md. i'm in roxbury area


Mike Rhinehart? Doesn't matter. Welcome!

I actually live about 3 minutes from Roxbury.


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## iaov (Apr 14, 2008)

I get at least a third down to start. Next third at rough in inspect and last at final.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

For several years I didn't get deposits. Then I kept hearing from friends and other contractors that I was crazy for not getting at least something down. It is a trust thing that goes both ways. 

For other than a small job I typically like to get:
25-30% down
30-35% rough in (I like to be at around 60% when the rough-in is done)
30% finish
10% after final inspection and punch list stuff


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

I like how Petey does it. Although I'd rather have at least 70% after the rough inspection. It's important to have a little leverage so whoever your contract is signed with doesn't try to get wise and have someone else finish the job u started and not have to pay him as much as he owes you. And IMO the rough is the more difficult work when compared to trimming out.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Magnettica said:


> I like how Petey does it. Although I'd rather have at least 70% after the rough inspection. It's important to have a little leverage so whoever your contract is signed with doesn't try to get wise and have someone else finish the job u started and not have to pay him as much as he owes you. And IMO the rough is the more difficult work when compared to trimming out.


 
To prevent this, I intentionally short out my general purpose circuits during rough-in.

As my own SOP, I take GP circuits to a switch box first to make possible troubleshooting problems during trim easier. The first thing I do is put an extra pigtail on both the hot and noodle and tie them together with an orange wire nut. 

I place it in the box along with the rest of the splices, and it looks totally normal.

Now, when I come back to trim, it takes very little time to take those orange wire nuts off and seperate the two wires. Trim as normal.

But............ if some kooky HO decides to have Uncle Fred or Cousin Tom trim the place, guess what? I'm going to be getting a call from one very mad owner.

Of course, I'll just inquire as to why the work I have yet to finish is being energized. "Interesting. Our contract states this is a complete project. There's nothing in there about me just roughing it in. Tell you what. I'll come down tomorrow, complete the trim-out, find and correct all the problems, and you just pay me in full for the balance before I call for a final inspection."

Never had to do this, but I think it's cheap insurance.


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## Mr Electric (Jun 2, 2009)

480sparky very nice havn't had to to do it but love the idea


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## wvwirenut (Apr 24, 2009)

480sparky said:


> To prevent this, I intentionally short out my general purpose circuits during rough-in.
> 
> As my own SOP, I take GP circuits to a switch box first to make possible troubleshooting problems during trim easier. The first thing I do is put an extra pigtail on both the hot and noodle and tie them together with an orange wire nut.
> 
> ...


I love that idea 480!!! During rough-in you strip back the outer jacket of the romex and short the two together?


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## Mr Electric (Jun 2, 2009)

trademan i have been a contractor for 15 years the last 12 mainly new construction and i have never takin up front money (always thought the owner would frown on it and hire somone else). Our policy was 1/3 up front 1/3 ri insp. 1/3 final insp. but we always said we would accept 2/3 at ri insp. not the week after but when the sticker was stuck. But with todays economy as stated in another post my name is not xxxx electric and creative finacing its just xxxx electric. All general contractors get at least 25% down at contract signing to cover mobilization and materials do the math on a $200,000 dollar house thats $50,000 befor they start. Never feel shy about at least 25% for yourself. Unless Wal mart,Target the gas sation and any where you spend the money you are to collect let you just nod and say I'll cut you a check when i get home.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

wvwirenut said:


> I love that idea 480!!! During rough-in you strip back the outer jacket of the romex and short the two together?


Huh? Unless Jose and Pablo taught you to rough wire a home, the jacket should already be off the romex and all the connections in the box already made up.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

OK, I'll elaborate.

Let's say I have a home run coming into a 3-gang box.

I also have three 14/2s for switched feeds to three lights.

I also have two more 14/2s feeding other boxes.

When I make up the box, I add an extra black pigtail to the blacks that are always hot, and a white pigtail to all the noodles that are made up. I short those out with an orange wire nut and place into the box along with all the other splices. This way, nothing looks unusual, other than one orange wire nut amonst all the tans. The orange nut is only used so I can easily identify it when I come back.

During trim, I remove the wire nut, seperate the black and white, and nut both of the off and stuff 'em into the box. Continue trim as usual.



I learned this from a bricklayer years ago. He did a job where he was supposed to install a wood-burning fireplace in this couple's house.

Once he got done with the job, the HOs told him they had spent too much money and couldn't pay him right away. They agreed they would not use the fireplace until he was paid.

A couple weeks later, he gets a phone call from them. They say there's something wrong with the fireplace. It fills the house with smoke, and it won't draw a proper draft. He said, "I thought you said you weren't going to use it until you paid me!"

They replied, "Well, we thought we should check it first before we did, and there's a serious problem! We've opened the damper, and even looked up the chimney and we can see the bottom of the cap with no problem. But it just won't draw air and pull the smoke up the chimney. You need to fix this before we pay you!"

His response: "Well, that means you have my money. Here's what I'll do. I'll be out first thing tomorrow morning. You pay me, and I'll fix it."

They agreed. He went out the next day, and they put cash in his hand. He got his ladder out, climbed up on the roof, pulled the cap off, and removed the plate glass he installed. He then replaced the cap, climbed down and drove off.

Seems he'd been doing this for years. When he got paid for a job, he'd stop by and remove the glass without anyone noticing him.

That's where I got this idea.


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## Mr. Sparkle (Jan 27, 2009)

480sparky said:


> To prevent this, I intentionally short out my general purpose circuits during rough-in.
> 
> As my own SOP, I take GP circuits to a switch box first to make possible troubleshooting problems during trim easier. The first thing I do is put an extra pigtail on both the hot and noodle and tie them together with an orange wire nut.
> 
> ...


This is now my new SOP, I call it the 480 special.

Thanks! :thumbsup:

As far as money down goes.....

I would suggest you are at least at 60% after rough inspection, aside from other aspects spoke of already some homes can sit for quite some time before they are "finished". I have one right now that is going on almost a year, and it's only 2100 sq. ft.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Mr. Sparkle said:


> This is now my new SOP, I call it the 480 special.
> 
> Thanks! :thumbsup:


I also have a clause in my contracts about unauthorized work performed on my installs.



> 19. CHANGES AND MODIFICATIONS TO WORK:
> If, during the course of this contract or any agreed-upon change orders or during the warranty period, any work installed by *Code Electric* is modified, altered, revised or otherwise changed by anyone other than a *Code Electric* employee or assign, and/or without our consent, no warranty will be given. Further work will not be performed on the changed portion(s) unless *Code Electric* can be fully satisfied that the changes done are consistent with our installation policies and governing Codes. Labor and material needed to confirm acceptance will be charged to the Owner/Contractor as an additional expense above and beyond the price given in this proposal.


I also mention warranty work in that clause:



> 12. WARRANTY:.........
> b. _Warranty does not apply to: ........._
> _2. Extensions, alterations or additions to the original installation if made by others. ..........._


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## Mr. Sparkle (Jan 27, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> Huh? Unless Jose and Pablo taught you to rough wire a home, the jacket should already be off the romex and all the connections in the box already made up.


Funny you say that, I saw a rough a couple weeks ago where all the nm was sheathed in the boxes nothing was spliced, and everything was in 12/2. Sheetrock was up, all I thought was huh?:001_huh:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Mr. Sparkle said:


> Funny you say that, I saw a rough a couple weeks ago where all the nm was sheathed in the boxes nothing was spliced, and everything was in 12/2. Sheetrock was up, all I thought was huh?:001_huh:


 
That's the way some folks are taught. Do the ABSOLUTE MINIMUM in order to get the insulators and sheetrockers going. Box, drill, rope, suff and staple. Make-up can be done during trim. Never mind it takes longer this way, just git-'er-done! GO! GO! GO! I want it done NOW!!!!!! Kwityerbitchin! Do it like I tell you to!


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## Mr Electric (Jun 2, 2009)

*cut the check*

My old boss would walk on site and you try to ask a question all he would say i dont care get the job done aka(ri inspection) so they will cut the check.In MN all boxes must be spliced before RI insp


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## wvwirenut (Apr 24, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> Huh? Unless Jose and Pablo taught you to rough wire a home, the jacket should already be off the romex and all the connections in the box already made up.


Sorry to take them from your job site! There goes your cheap labor. Actually it was Juan Valdez. He brought coffee every morning.

I guess there's only one way....the MDSkunk way!!


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## te12co2w (Jun 3, 2007)

Mr. Sparkle said:


> This is now my new SOP, I call it the 480 special.
> 
> Thanks! :thumbsup:
> 
> ...



480 special! I like it. Seems like everyone likes this idea. I certainly might try it.
We used to ask for 1/2 when roughed in, and 1/2 when finished. That didn't work out real well. We now ask for 40% to start, 40% at rough in, and 20% when finished. Sounds extreme I know, but the cash flow is better. At least we have most of the money collected before trim this way. Still have to wait for that last check sometimes though.
We figure rough-in is 60-65% of the total.
I agree about the time line to finish some of these places. When I go back months later, I can easily forget some things. Takes a little while to get up to speed again.
Oh, by the way, we also make up all boxes during the rough in phase.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

480sparky said:


> That's the way some folks are taught. Do the ABSOLUTE MINIMUM in order to get the insulators and sheetrockers going. Box, drill, rope, suff and staple. Make-up can be done during trim. Never mind it takes longer this way, just git-'er-done! GO! GO! GO! I want it done NOW!!!!!! Kwityerbitchin! Do it like I tell you to!


I can't imagine doing it that way. Quite often the carpet and everything is down when I go to trim. I can't imagine cleaning up all those skinnings of finished flooring materials when you could have done it much earlier.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> I can't imagine doing it that way. Quite often the carpet and everything is down when I go to trim. I can't imagine cleaning up all those skinnings of finished flooring materials when you could have done it much earlier.


I wan't trained that way either. But that's part of the reason I don't work for anyone any more.

Previous employers didn't care for my "Rough-in means get as much done as you possibly can" attitude. For some reason, I never trimmed out a house I roughed in, so my super always said I was slow.

Gee. No wonder. I always landed the panel, made up all the boxes, and trimmed the basement if it was to be unfinished. So the next slob came along and had it easy, while I wrestled their abortions that they had roughed.

For the most part, I trim before the final floor goes down, so bits of drywall mud, bits of insulation, etc. are easily cleaned up.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

480sparky said:


> For the most part, I trim before the final floor goes down, so bits of drywall mud, bits of insulation, etc. are easily cleaned up.


I normally don't have a clue at what state a given project might be in. I just wait for a phonecall or email. I would like to be more proactive in that regard, but I just don't take the time to do that. It works out anyhow.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

I have been accused of being slow by more than one boss. I take pride in it, because it means every cable is flat, every nail plate is on, every tap is made up, and everything that can be done is done on the rough. Or in commercial work, every offset is perfect, the home runs are pulled in, and I go ahead and hang the ceiling wire for my lights ahead of time.


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## Kevin J (Dec 11, 2008)

480sparky said:


> That's the way some folks are taught. Do the ABSOLUTE MINIMUM in order to get the insulators and sheetrockers going. Box, drill, rope, suff and staple. Make-up can be done during trim. Never mind it takes longer this way, just git-'er-done! GO! GO! GO! I want it done NOW!!!!!! Kwityerbitchin! Do it like I tell you to!





MDShunk said:


> I can't imagine doing it that way. Quite often the carpet and everything is down when I go to trim. I can't imagine cleaning up all those skinnings of finished flooring materials when you could have done it much earlier.



This was my father-in-law's MO. He'd say "This is how I was tought and I've been doing it that way for 35 years!! It ought to be the way you do it, much faster!" So, needless to say, over the years when I have worked with him sometimes,(Very few and far between) I have done it this way a couple of times, and it sucks!! He had this system of "notching" the wire different ways to identify feeds and switchlegs. Sure, rough-in was super fast, but the finish end was really time consuming. Or, he would make a trip back to the house after drywall just to cut-in. I don't know, I like to think of myself as pretty open minded, but I just don't really see any advantage to this way.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Kevin J said:


> ........ He had this system of "notching" the wire different ways to identify feeds and switchlegs. .........


You mean like this?


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## wvwirenut (Apr 24, 2009)

This is what makes this forum a great place to come!! :thumbup: 
No matter how long you've been doing something, you can always learn a different way of doing it. The bosses I've always had was the hurry up and get it done so the other subs can come in and get their work done. Also, it always seems like there is a lot of mud in the boxes after the drywall went up. I really like the "other" way and it sure will make trimming much easier and faster.


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## Mr. Sparkle (Jan 27, 2009)

480sparky said:


> You mean like this?


pssst 480, I see a code violation. Shhhh, I won't tell....


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Mr. Sparkle said:


> pssst 480, I see a code violation. Shhhh, I won't tell....


Yah, two wires per internal cable clamp not allowed on a Carlon box. Single gang, yes. Two gang or more... nope. Do I do it that way anyhow? You betcha I do. :laughing:


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## Mr. Sparkle (Jan 27, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> Yah, two wires per internal cable clamp not allowed on a Carlon box. Single gang, yes. Two gang or more... nope. Do I do it that way anyhow? You betcha I do. :laughing:


I too was the pot calling the kettle black....:whistling2:


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## F & F Electric (Jun 9, 2009)

*Get more down...*

In this business and these time's of economic struggle you can't trust anyone even the GC's now a days. Its common practice for my company to request at least 50% upfront this covers materials and a few bucks for labor. If for some reason the jobs goes belly up your safe


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## starsailor803 (Jun 10, 2009)

Wow. Money upfront for residential is pretty much unheard of around my area. The standard pay out is 50% after RI, the other half after TO. Your profits take a hit after rough-in material costs but makes it much sweeter on trim outs.


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## te12co2w (Jun 3, 2007)

starsailor803 said:


> Wow. Money upfront for residential is pretty much unheard of around my area. The standard pay out is 50% after RI, the other half after TO. Your profits take a hit after rough-in material costs but makes it much sweeter on trim outs.


 Exactly the way I used to do it and I liked the trim payment, just as you said. but got burned too many times like that and had to start requesting money to start.


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## hiloelectric (Jun 11, 2009)

Up here in Washington we can't ask for more than 10% Down. So I ask 10% Down, 70% RI, and 20% Trim out. When we get the rough in payment, we buy all trim materials for that job, label them and put them in the shed.


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