# A few union questions



## Drew1485 (Jun 9, 2009)

Hey guys, I am new to this whole union thing...I am in my early 20's and I have been working as a non-union electrician for 4 years. I really enjoy it a lot and want to make a career out of it so I went to the union and met with a BA. He told me that since I have over 4000 hrs of experience I don't have to start at the bottom. Does anyone know where I would start at then? (I have about 7000-7500 hrs exp)
He said I wouldn't have to take the aptitude test but I would be interviewed. I assume that is where they would determine my experience and where to place me at? Yes? Does anyone have any suggestions for the interview or what I should be prepared for?
Thanks for you help...like I said this is a whole new experience for me so I don't know much about the union scene.


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## BDB (Jul 9, 2008)

Drew1485 said:


> He said I wouldn't have to take the aptitude test but I would be interviewed. I assume that is where they would determine my experience and where to place me at? Yes?


Yes:thumbsup:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Dress nice, think before you answer. Think pro union when you answer but do not come across as a BSer.

Example;

Interviewer:
*Where do you see yourself in 4 years.*

Your answer would be.
*Voting for Obama.*

Interviewer:
How do you respond when someone gets in you face?

Your answer would be.
*I tell them I Voted for Obama.*

and so forth.


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

Brian is correct. And the wrong answer answer to any question they ask is "Rush Limbaugh".


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## Drew1485 (Jun 9, 2009)

Haha yeah...Alright thanks guys I'll keep that in mind. Since I will be getting interviewed as someone who has previous experience will they be asking me electrical related questions or will they stick to the typical why do you want to be an electrician types of questions?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Drew1485 said:


> Haha yeah...Alright thanks guys I'll keep that in mind. Since I will be getting interviewed as someone who has previous experience will they be asking me electrical related questions or will they stick to the typical why do you want to be an electrician types of questions?


 
JUST MY OPINION,

I do not think they give a durn about your electrical experience that will be another test, this is to see if you are a good fit. Like some of the excellemt members and a few losers that tag along, they really want less losers (I HOPE).


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

brian john said:


> Dress nice, think before you answer. Think pro union when you answer but do not come across as a BSer.
> 
> Example;
> 
> ...


 :laughing::laughing: This is so correct.:laughing::laughing:


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

oldman said:


> Brian is correct. And the wrong answer answer to any question they ask is "Rush Limbaugh".


 Oldman is 100% correct they think that republicans are the devil and don't even tell them you shop at walmart.


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

william1978 said:


> Oldman is 100% correct they think that republicans are the devil and don't even tell them you shop at walmart.


i'm a conservative, and even I won't shop at walmart:laughing:


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

brian john said:


> and so forth.


I'm telling yah, refer to your GF as your 'significant other,' flap your wrist around a bit, and add a bit of lisp, YOU'RE a SHOE IN!

They will probably have you start in at third year. That is when all the really good stuff begins, so don't get MAD!


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

brian john said:


> Dress nice, think before you answer. Think pro union when you answer but do not come across as a BSer.
> 
> Example;
> 
> ...


OK this cracked me up! :thumbup:


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Drew1485 said:


> Hey guys, I am new to this whole union thing...I am in my early 20's and I have been working as a non-union electrician for 4 years. I really enjoy it a lot and want to make a career out of it so I went to the union and met with a BA. He told me that since I have over 4000 hrs of experience I don't have to start at the bottom. Does anyone know where I would start at then? (I have about 7000-7500 hrs exp)
> He said I wouldn't have to take the aptitude test but I would be interviewed. I assume that is where they would determine my experience and where to place me at? Yes? Does anyone have any suggestions for the interview or what I should be prepared for?
> Thanks for you help...like I said this is a whole new experience for me so I don't know much about the union scene.


Drew:

Relax, it's a union rep not St. Peter... dress nice, be truthful. Don't B.S.
I'd like to hear your story about why you're going to the union to make a career out of electrical work?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Drew:
> 
> Relax, it's a union rep not St. Peter... dress nice, be truthful. Don't B.S.
> I'd like to hear your story about why you're going to the union to make a career out of electrical work?


 Most likely

Better pay
Better benefits
Consistent retirement.


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## Drew1485 (Jun 9, 2009)

Pretty much it.
Benefits is a huge factor for me. The union has been bothering me and the company I work for if you will, for years now and it seems like more and more of the work that we used to get is being lost to unions. I hear both good and bad things about the union so its kind of hard for me to know what to think. Also I have met both union and non-union guys who have done very well for themselves. But more or less, what Brian said.


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

you might want to practice your NOT referring to the UNION as BOTHERING you and the company you work for.
Maybe The union has expressed interest in me and the company I work for.

Both statements say the same thing but one of them sounds much better.

Ever wonder if those union reps and business agents ever "lurk" on these sites ??


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

manchestersparky said:


> you might want to practice your NOT referring to the UNION as BOTHERING you and the company you work for.
> Maybe The union has expressed interest in me and the company I work for.
> 
> Both statements say the same thing but one of them sounds much better.
> ...


Sometimes I fell like we are being salted, just like those snake oil salesman peddling their power savers they come in make a strike and leave.


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## Drew1485 (Jun 9, 2009)

you might want to practice your NOT referring to the UNION as BOTHERING you and the company you work for.
Maybe The union has expressed interest in me and the company I work for.

Both statements say the same thing but one of them sounds much better.

I'll keep that in mind..Thanks.


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## Drew1485 (Jun 9, 2009)

Drew1485 said:


> you might want to practice your NOT referring to the UNION as BOTHERING you and the company you work for.
> Maybe The union has expressed interest in me and the company I work for.
> 
> Both statements say the same thing but one of them sounds much better.



I meant to quote the previous statement..But in the future I will say it your way...your right it does sound better!


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## headrec (Feb 25, 2008)

You could always finish out your 8000 hours and test out then just jump on as a J-man.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

headrec said:


> You could always finish out your 8000 hours and test out then just jump on as a J-man.


Not necessarily. 
The may need men now, and might not need them then.
Rules could change.
Lot's of things happen, if you want in and you can get in now I'd go for it, unless they cut you to a greenhorn.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

headrec said:


> You could always finish out your 8000 hours and test out then just jump on as a J-man.



Then you would miss out on all the good training.


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## Drew1485 (Jun 9, 2009)

Yeah getting the extra training would be nice I think. Plus I would think that jumping on as a Journeyman could be a little harder, but I'm not too sure. All in all, if there is an opening I will take it.


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## BDB (Jul 9, 2008)

Drew1485 said:


> jumping on as a Journeyman could be a little harder,


And if you did jump in as a J-Man, you would for ever be known (by your "brothers") as a guy that did not do the training and was given your J-Man ticket.


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## Drew1485 (Jun 9, 2009)

I didn't want to say it...but my thoughts exactly.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

manchestersparky said:


> you might want to practice your NOT referring to the UNION as BOTHERING you and the company you work for.


I Hope to GAWD the Union is Bothering him and his company.

After all, that is why I pay them every month!

And if you must know, that consistent pestering is why I joined up in the first place!


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

BDB said:


> And if you did jump in as a J-Man, you would for ever be known (by your "brothers") as a guy that did not do the training and was given your J-Man ticket.


 
Yeah because no matter how much we try to dis-spell myths there are still some narrowed minded idiots.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

miller_elex said:


> I Hope to GAWD the Union is Bothering him and his company.
> 
> After all, that is why I pay them every month!
> 
> And if you must know, that consistent pestering is why I joined up in the first place!


 
Yeah like a bitch many can't wait for them to go away. Formulating friends where ever they go?????????????????????????


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

oldman said:


> i'm a conservative, and even I won't shop at walmart:laughing:


Walmart is the wellspring of all useless crap that I see piled up in peoples' garages.


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## headrec (Feb 25, 2008)

brian john said:


> unless they cut you to a greenhorn.


This is what I have noticed with a few in my local that have come over from the non union side. One guy in my first year class had 6000+ hours. Then again he was dumb as a box of rocks. So all said and done probably best to test in where you belong and get the best training you can. :thumbup::laughing:


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## Drew1485 (Jun 9, 2009)

erics37 said:


> Walmart is the wellspring of all useless crap that I see piled up in peoples' garages.


What is the deal with being anti-walmart? Are the anti union or something?


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

Drew1485 said:


> What is the deal with being anti-walmart? Are the anti union or something?


A store full of cheap crap made by 12 year olds working 14 hour days sold to you by minimum wage workers with no benefits so that the taxpayers pick up there medical benefits while the owners rank as some of the wealthiest people in the country? Why would anyone have a problem with that?


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

drsparky said:


> A store full of cheap crap *designed specifically to fail *made by 12 year olds *The non-educated Chinese and Mylasian and SriLankian typically send their children to factory at age 7 *working 14 hour days *that's only holiday hours *sold to you by minimum wage workers with no benefits so that the taxpayers pick up there medical benefits *while they're given instructions on how to apply for, and get welfare WHILE WORKING at WalMart *while the owners rank as some of the wealthiest people in the country? Why would anyone have a problem with that?


Capitalism... what could be wrong with it?


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## LJSMITH1 (May 4, 2009)

drsparky said:


> A store full of cheap crap made by 12 year olds working 14 hour days sold to you by minimum wage workers with no benefits so that the taxpayers pick up there medical benefits while the owners rank as some of the wealthiest people in the country? Why would anyone have a problem with that?


 
Then tell all of your American neighbors to stop shopping there or anywhere else imported product is sold. Stop looking for the lowest priced stuff around. Be willing to pay more for American made product (if its available). 

Shopping for the lowest price has caused many American companies to pack up and move manufacturing operations to where the labor costs are cheaper (Mexico, China, India, etc.). They do this so they can stay in business and still sell you product that you want for the price you are willing to pay. I guess it would be better if the company just folded in light of foreign competition, right?:001_huh:

The problem with this thinking is that the consumer assumes NO accountability for helping to drive American manufacturing offshore. This is absolutely ridiculous!:laughing: EVERY American consumer shares responsibility for this - including me.

Contrary to what some believe, American manufacturing was doing just fine until foreign competition was allowed to eat up domestic competition. If you want to blame someone, blame your Congress and your government for not protecting American Manufacturing interests with import tariffs similar to other countries (like China or Mexico). These places make it much easier (and cost effective) to export goods than to import them if domestics are available. Level the playing field and American manufacturing will become more attractive to many companies.

Also, comparing a Chinese assembly worker wage/benefits with an American assembly worker wage/benefits (assuming the same job function - and non-union) is like comparing fruits and meats. I have worked with Chinese, Taiwanese, Indian, and Mexican manufacturers first hand. I can tell you that the standard of living in much of these countries is NOT the same as anywhere in the USA, so the wages would not be the same or even close. In many parts of China (Guangdong Province for example), a Chinese worker has little option due to educational restrictions, family circumstances, or home residence location. A steady job puts food on the table and can support a family (at a much lower standard of living than we can imagine) where the alternative is to beg and steal. There is no real "welfare" to fall back on. Chinese workers cannot just 'pack up and move' to a better job with higher wages. There are none. 

The good news is that as the standard of living increases in these countries, so will the wages, and the closer they will be in comparison with US or European wages. That will take awhile. Japan is on par with the US, which is why manufacturing moved to Taiwan. Taiwan's standard of living is now approaching Japan's and many manufacturers have moved into China. Next will be Vietnam, or Africa...the list is endless..

This is why changing the import tariff laws and duties are the best bet to change American consumerism to promote Made In USA capitalism.


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## LJSMITH1 (May 4, 2009)

drsparky said:


> A store full of cheap crap made by 12 year olds working 14 hour days sold to you by minimum wage workers with no benefits so that the taxpayers pick up there medical benefits while the owners rank as some of the wealthiest people in the country? Why would anyone have a problem with that?


 
Oh...and another thing...I guess being "wealthy" is a bad thing, right?:001_huh:

So what if the Walton family is filthy rich, so what if Bill Gates has to much money to spend...who cares? They succeeded by giving the public what they want. 

If you want equal distribution of wealth, then look into countries like Russia or North Korea...

From Wiki:
"Communism is based on the idea that the state should enforce equal wealth for all citizens. The common slogan is, "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need." Critics of state-managed economies, notably Milton Friedman, point out that this slogan turns ability into a liability and need into an asset. The former Soviet Union and The People's Republic of China as examples of countries where, despite aggressive economic regulation, wealth continues to be distributed unevenly."


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

drsparky said:


> A store full of cheap crap made by 12 year olds working 14 hour days sold to you by minimum wage workers with no benefits so that the taxpayers pick up there medical benefits while the owners rank as some of the wealthiest people in the country? Why would anyone have a problem with that?


Other than a very few limited brands do you think anything else you wear is USA made, like your skivvies.

And Walmart has fishing licenses HARDLY CRAP, but that is about all I get there.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

LJSMITH1 said:


> Oh...and another thing...I guess being "wealthy" is a bad thing, right?:001_huh:
> 
> ."


 
If you haven't noticed there are a FEW very jealous, small minded, commie and/or socialist, maybe electricians that post here.


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## LJSMITH1 (May 4, 2009)

brian john said:


> If you haven't noticed there are a FEW very jealous, small minded, commie and/or socialist, maybe electricians that post here.


 
 No Way! Really?!?! :jester:


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

LJSMITH1 said:


> Oh...and another thing...I guess being "wealthy" is a bad thing, right?:001_huh:
> 
> So what if the Walton family is filthy rich, so what if Bill Gates has to much money to spend...who cares? They succeeded by giving the public what they want.
> 
> ...


I am all for making an honest buck. The problem I have with Wal-Mart is there business practices are unethical. Most of the hourly employees are limited to 32 hours a week so they are considered part timers even though they have worked there for years. This puts them in a lower category for benefits and you and I as taxpayers supplement there wages buy paying for there medical and food stamps. If Wal-Mart would permit these long time employees to work 40 hour weeks there would be fewer burdens on the taxpayers. Warren Buffet and Berkshire Hathaway is a very successful company, but they are ethical, they still make truckloads of money but do it right. I am all for big business, if I need something from that type of store I go to Kmart or Sears. How you can equate avoiding shopping at Wal-Mart to class envy or communism?:001_huh:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

drsparky said:


> I am all for making an honest buck. The problem I have with Wal-Mart is there business practices are unethical. Most of the hourly employees are limited to 32 hours a week so they are considered part timers even though they have worked there for years. This puts them in a lower category for benefits and you and I as taxpayers supplement there wages buy paying for there medical and food stamps. If Wal-Mart would permit these long time employees to work 40 hour weeks there would be fewer burdens on the taxpayers.


MAYBE if these folks got educated they could get a better job? 

Not a slam against them just a thought. 

Maybe if our government finally realized that welfare and social programs are a failure and let ME and YOU KEEP MY TAX DOLLARS we all might be better off. 

Once again just a thought.


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## LJSMITH1 (May 4, 2009)

drsparky said:


> I am all for making an honest buck. The problem I have with Wal-Mart is there business practices are unethical. Most of the hourly employees are limited to 32 hours a week so they are considered part timers even though they have worked there for years. This puts them in a lower category for benefits and you and I as taxpayers supplement there wages buy paying for there medical and food stamps. If Wal-Mart would permit these long time employees to work 40 hour weeks there would be fewer burdens on the taxpayers. Warren Buffet and Berkshire Hathaway is a very successful company, but they are ethical, they still make truckloads of money but do it right. I am all for big business, if I need something from that type of store I go to Kmart or Sears. How you can equate avoiding shopping at Wal-Mart to class envy or communism?:001_huh:


 
Un-Ethical?!?! What??:001_huh::laughing:

Lets start off with a definition to make sure I understand:
*unethical* - not conforming to approved standards of social or professional behavior; "unethical business practices".

In the context of the definition, I find it hard to imagine that limiting hours worked per week (and getting paid for it) is violating some business practice standard or behavior. I don't know of any EEOC issues with Wal-Mart that revolve around this issue. I know they have had issues in the past with paying workers for the actual time they worked and not providing for proper breaks. Those issues were settled in court back in 2000-2005. They were fined and as far as I know, are not violating any current labor laws now. 

The primary detractors of Wal-Mart have been the Unions - specifically the SEIU. They want to unionize all of the workers in Wal-Mart. So, they make a big deal out of 'poor' benefits, female discrimination, unfair working conditions..etc...etc...etc..all in the hopes of painting Wal-Mart as un-American and heartless as possible. 

If things are so bad as an employee of Wal-Mart, then why do over 250,000 people continue to work for them? Nobody is twisting an arm or a leg to work there. Are things any better at a local supermarket or other retailer without Union supervision? The Unions would like you to think so. They have to..it is in their best interest to do so.

If I own a business, I decide how many hours I need from employees to work, how much overtime is available, and I how much I can offer a wage/benefit that will be acceptable to gain the labor in return. Very simple concept. I have been laid off 2X in my "white collar career" and I never complained about how 'unfair' it is or how I deserved more...I picked myself up by my bootstraps and got a new job. On with my life. 

I agree with Brian, education seems to be the limiting factor in most salary potentials. Very few are dropouts who make a huge success that you read about on the news. Does that mean everyone can do the same thing? No. Sometimes its not what you know, but who you know, your potential, or being in the right place at the right time.

My Dad always told me that "the world needs ditch diggers too, and if I was ever without a job, I should do ANYTHING to put food on the table for myself and my family". If that means I need to fix cars or dig ditches instead of being an engineer...so be it.:thumbsup:


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

My daughter is a college student and works at Wal-Mart; she is helping to pay her tuition. The pay stinks but Wal-Mart is the only one left in her town.
As far as unethical, yes I stand by that, unethical, I didn’t say illegal. Target, Kmart, Shopko, do not have the problems Wal-Mart does. Microsoft, Google, Berkshire Hathaway, are famous for taking care of there workers. If you are looking at lower educated workers Fed-Ex, Target, UPS, Time Warner cable, all have good employee relations and good pay. 
It if funny in an odd sort of way that you consider that my avoiding shopping at the biggest purchaser of good from a communist country makes me a communist.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

drsparky said:


> My daughter is a college student and works at Wal-Mart; she is helping to pay her tuition. The pay stinks but Wal-Mart is the only one left in her town.
> As far as unethical, yes I stand by that, unethical, I didn’t say illegal. Target, Kmart, Shopko, do not have the problems Wal-Mart does. Microsoft, Google, Berkshire Hathaway, are famous for taking care of there workers. If you are looking at lower educated workers Fed-Ex, Target, UPS, Time Warner cable, all have good employee relations and good pay.
> It if funny in an odd sort of way that you consider that my avoiding shopping at the biggest purchaser of good from a communist country makes me a communist.


 
dang commie


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

The question is about accountability. If someone wants to work for W-mart for pennies then that's fine by me I just don't want to pay their health insurance while a couple of fat cat waltons earn billions. One couldn't spend a billion let alone billions, so own up and pay your share. With W-mart being the largest private sector employer I think it's fair to expect a little more from them. I personally don't shop there cause I don't like their practices and I think anything you buy there is total crap.


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## paul d. (Jul 13, 2008)

maybe we'd all be better off if the govt. set pay scale for everyone in the country. yep. thats the solution. :whistling2:


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

paul d. said:


> maybe we'd all be better off if the govt. set pay scale for everyone in the country. yep. thats the solution. :whistling2:


No one said anything about government setting executive compensation. Drew 1845 asked why some of us do not like Wal-Mart. Why don't you tell us why we should patronize Wal-Mart? Give us the good points.:nerd:


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## gilbequick (Oct 6, 2007)

Loose Neutral said:


> The question is about accountability. If someone wants to work for W-mart for pennies then that's fine by me I just don't want to pay their health insurance while a couple of fat cat waltons earn billions. One couldn't spend a billion let alone billions, so own up and pay your share. With W-mart being the largest private sector employer I think it's fair to expect a little more from them. I personally don't shop there cause I don't like their practices and I think anything you buy thier is total crap.


What a load of BS if I ever heard one. "Fair share", "accountability", "fair", come on man. What is their fair share? Accountable for what? They're not breaking any laws. 

With that said, I don't like Wal-Mart. The store isn't anything but a bunch of cheap CRAP that isn't worth the price you pay for it, even as low as some of it may be. Ethically, I think their company model blows. But they are their own company and they can run how they chose, as long as they stay within the laws that abide them. 

It's no secret that the employees there don't get the best pay or benefits, it's been all over the news and is common knowledge. Yet somehow they always seem to have people lined up to work there, knowing all of this before they fill out the application. The individual is worth what they accept in form of hourly pay and benefits. If they accept minimun wage than that's what they put their self worth as. Some people may think they're worth $232/hr but if no one will pay it then their not worth it.


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## LJSMITH1 (May 4, 2009)

drsparky said:


> My daughter is a college student and works at Wal-Mart; she is helping to pay her tuition. The pay stinks but Wal-Mart is the only one left in her town.
> As far as unethical, yes I stand by that, unethical, I didn’t say illegal. Target, Kmart, Shopko, do not have the problems Wal-Mart does. Microsoft, Google, Berkshire Hathaway, are famous for taking care of there workers. If you are looking at lower educated workers Fed-Ex, Target, UPS, Time Warner cable, all have good employee relations and good pay.
> It if funny in an odd sort of way that you consider that my avoiding shopping at the biggest purchaser of good from a communist country makes me a communist.


I never said or implied that if you don't shop there you are a communist. Re-read my post. You made a comment about wages, and alluded to your support of re-allocation of wealth....It's funny that you read into my comments like that.

I would beg to differ about the working conditions of many of the companies you list. I am sure if you looked closer, you would find similar problems or issues. However, find some non-union comparisons. Last I checked, UPS, Fed-Ex, Time-Warner Cable, etc. all have some degree of union representation. As a matter of fact, Time-Warner has been accused of union busting in 2007...There have been many employee complaints at UPS and Fed-Ex.

My point is that just because a company offers low wages and little or no benefits, does not make them un-American or a terrible company. People know the wages before they start their first day of work, and if they agree to work for them, who are you to question that? They are not the only game in town for most areas in the USA.


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## LJSMITH1 (May 4, 2009)

Loose Neutral said:


> The question is about accountability. If someone wants to work for W-mart for pennies then that's fine by me I just don't want to pay their health insurance while a couple of fat cat waltons earn billions. One couldn't spend a billion let alone billions, so own up and pay your share. With W-mart being the largest private sector employer I think it's fair to expect a little more from them. I personally don't shop there cause I don't like their practices and I think anything you buy there is total crap.


 
Again...so don't shop there and tell all your neighbors to not shop there. That's the only way you can make changes that company management will understand.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

gilbequick said:


> What a load of BS if I ever heard one. "Fair share", "accountability", "fair", come on man. What is their fair share? Accountable for what? They're not breaking any laws.
> 
> With that said, I don't like Wal-Mart. The store isn't anything but a bunch of cheap CRAP that isn't worth the price you pay for it, even as low as some of it may be. Ethically, I think their company model blows. But they are their own company and they can run how they chose, as long as they stay within the laws that abide them.
> 
> It's no secret that the employees there don't get the best pay or benefits, it's been all over the news and is common knowledge. Yet somehow they always seem to have people lined up to work there, knowing all of this before they fill out the application. The individual is worth what they accept in form of hourly pay and benefits. If they accept minimun wage than that's what they put their self worth as. Some people may think they're worth $232/hr but if no one will pay it then their not worth it.




They have broke many labor laws. That's fact. They circumvent the law so that they don't have to give bennies. Fact. My point is they have the ability to and they don't. Again why should the rest of us pick up their health insurance tab. As far as it's their company they can run it how they want. Well it's my car and I should be able to drive it as I want. As far as pay, your right whatever your self worth is, than so be it. But everyone gets sick whether you make $5 hr or $500 hr.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

LJSMITH1 said:


> Again...so don't shop there and tell all your neighbors to not shop there. That's the only way you can make changes that company management will understand.



Haven't been in one in over 10 years and my neighbor's think I'm crazy when I tell them they shouldn't shop there.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Loose Neutral said:


> They have broke many labor laws. That's fact.


And they were fined.



> They circumvent the law so that they don't have to give bennies. Fact.


 What laws? (maybe state?) I know no federal guarantee benefits benefits (MAYBE THERE SHOULD BE).



> Mypoint is they have the ability to and they don't.


 You have the ability to pay more taxes do you?



> Again why should the rest of us pick up their health insurance tab.


 How are we doing this?



> As far as it's their company they can run it how they want.


Actually you just said you want them to run it different.




> Well it's my car and I should be able to drive it as I want. As far as pay, your right whatever your self worth is, than so be it. But everyone gets sick whether you make $5 hr or $500 hr.


There will always be people at all ends of the pay scale, when you try to change that by some redistribution then there will be nothing for anybody. While a very nice feel good hug the puppy feeling it just does not work.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

when their employees get sick and they don't have health insurance. They either go to a clinic or the E room. We all pay higher premiums cause of it.

As far as it's their company they can run it how they want i was repeating what the other guy said.


As far as redistributing the wealth I said no such thing I just think they can be a little better of an employer.


I pay more than enough taxes and don't have the ability to pay more i want to pay less. I'm paying more than my share of health care though. I have to go hug my dog now.


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## jsb (Apr 5, 2009)

drsparky said:


> My daughter is a college student and works at Wal-Mart; she is helping to pay her tuition. The pay stinks but Wal-Mart is the only one left in her town.
> As far as unethical, yes I stand by that, unethical, I didn’t say illegal. Target, Kmart, Shopko, do not have the problems Wal-Mart does. Microsoft, Google, Berkshire Hathaway, are famous for taking care of there workers. If you are looking at lower educated workers Fed-Ex, Target, UPS, Time Warner cable, all have good employee relations and good pay.
> It if funny in an odd sort of way that you consider that my avoiding shopping at the biggest purchaser of good from a communist country makes me a communist.


perfect example of a positive for walmat. if there was no walmart she would S.O.L. i guess. thank god for walmart


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Loose Neutral said:


> when their employees get sick and they don't have health insurance. They either go to a clinic or the E room. We all pay higher premiums cause of it.


And homeless and welfare, and McDees, Burger King and some electricians.






> As far as redistributing the wealth I said no such thing I just think they can be a little better of an employer.


No but you alluded to the fact that Walmart should do something with their cash, that at present they do not fell so inclined to do.




> I pay more than enough taxes and don't have the ability to pay more i want to pay less. I'm paying more than my share of health care though. I have to go hug my dog now.


Want to bet wait till big O gets his plan going.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

bunch o dang commies


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## e57 (Jun 5, 2009)

On the walmart/kmart hate talk... I'm with ya - but one should add the home depotes and lowes to the mix.

The problem with all of them chains is that they crush any competition.

Stick a HD or lowes within a few miles of anywhere, and you can kiss any hardware or lumber yard adios. Even a few electrical supply houses too.

Same with Coffee shops, bakeries.... Chuck a Starbucks in anywhere and start kissing that mom & pop joint that roasted their own beans goodbye, along with all the others for 20 blocks. Throw in a Dunkins and you won't be able to buy coffee anywhere else - they multiply like rabbits...

The city I live in has a series mandatory public hearings before the planning commission aimed at keeping chains out... Granted SF has some real wacked out laws I don't like... This one I do, because it is aimed at maintaining and creating opportunities for small business. It all started at keeping HD out - the result has been whole bunches of independant hardware stores all over the city staying around in each nieghborhood. Some of them have been around for decades - a few more specialized than that. Better quality tools and parts. Personal relationships form easier when you don't see the silly orange apron, at my favorite woodworking tool shop they know me by name. But most importantly, none of my tools say 'huskey' on them. One of them has a great welding section. Another is great for lumber. And there are still a half dozen or more electrical supply houses in competition with each other. If there were a home destructo available without a freeway trip - all of them would loose out to the burger king of the construction industry. And be gone...


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Any large corporation is the bane of workers.

Mickey-Ds has often been the target of the new world order protesters, now Starbucks is getting their angst, IBM, Microsoft (target of hackers), Sears, Walmart and any other successful company.

But there is a simple solution STOP using these firms. MY issue with Walmart is what they have done to the American small town, down town. But if not them it would have been someone else, would you rather it be K-Mart or Abdula Mart?

When cars were invented I am sure the whip makers and saddle makers hated Ford.


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## LJSMITH1 (May 4, 2009)

e57 said:


> On the walmart/kmart hate talk... I'm with ya - but one should add the home depotes and lowes to the mix.
> 
> The problem with all of them chains is that they crush any competition.
> 
> ...


 
Good post. We all know the only reason these chains come to town is to sell more product. It obviously works, because within years of a HD coming to town, most lumberyards or hardware stores are shutting their doors. Why? Because they can't compete with the prices and selection the big chains offer for the same product the customer wants. The only people who still shopped at those places were those with business/personal relationships with the staff or owner. They willingly paid more to show their loyalty. Unfortunately, that doesn't go far in business these days.

We can bash these big box stores all day long, but they are all there because the consumer wants them. Is the Milwaukee Saws-All the same in your HD as the one in your independent hardware store? Yes. Does HD have a cheaper price? Yes. Why? It's called price breaks for higher quantities. Call it unfair, un-ethical, un-American...but its good 'ol Capitalism. It's what this country was built on.

HD, Lowes, Kmart, Wal-Mart, Costco, Staples, etc. didn't start off with 100 stores around the country. They grew one by one over time based on how well the stores were doing. They obviously did something right to get as big as they are now. If they were truly offering crap that nobody wanted, then I wouldn't think that they would still be in business.

BTW..the "HUSKY" brand has been around for awhile. It is made by Stanley Tool Works, who also makes Bostitch and Proto brands. Stanley Tool Works was founded in 1843 in New Britain, CT. While much of their manufacturing has moved overseas (see my previous posts for why..), Bostitch is still made in Clinton, CT and some hand tools are still made in New Britain, CT. I have a few Husky wrenches and they seem no different than the Craftsman tools I have had for 40+ years (my father gave me some). I wrench on things quite often, and I feel I have a good handle on what is junk and what is decent quality. I also have S-K, Snap-On, Proto, Klien and a few other brands I can't think of right now..


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## LJSMITH1 (May 4, 2009)

brian john said:


> When cars were invented I am sure the whip makers and saddle makers hated Ford.


 
That's so true! :thumbsup:

What these big stores are creating is a better 'mousetrap'. Maybe someday, someone will think of a better way to shop for construction supplies and they will be the next HD or Lowes...


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

I'm going to Walmart would anyone like to go with me?:whistling2::jester:


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

jsb said:


> perfect example of a positive for walmat. if there was no walmart she would S.O.L. i guess. thank god for walmart


There were stores before Wal-Mart and two small manufactures that went out of business, cheaper to build in China. Overall a loss of jobs. If I buy from the few remaining locally owned business in town the money stays and is respent in town (maybe for some electrical work). If I spend money at Wal-Mart a small percentage goes to the local employees but the big money leaves for Bentonville Arkansas. 
When I lived in Ohio a friend had a pumpkin farm and he tried to work a deal with Wal-Mart to sell locally grown pumpkins, the price they offered him was so low he barely recoup costs. He ended up selling to a local grocery chain, he made a small profit and so did the store.


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## paul d. (Jul 13, 2008)

seems like a lot of guys here want to roll the calendar back to 1950. it aint gonna happen . mexicans are here. wal mart is everywhere. GM is bankrupt. who woulda thunk it.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

paul d. said:


> seems like a lot of guys here want to roll the calendar back to 1950. it aint gonna happen . mexicans are here. wal mart is everywhere. GM is bankrupt. who woulda thunk it.


 Yea, GM cut funding to NASCAR yesterday I heard for the nationwide and Truck series and some more dominos fall.


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## paul d. (Jul 13, 2008)

william1978 said:


> Yea, GM cut funding to NASCAR yesterday I heard for the nationwide and Truck series and some more dominos fall.


 yeah william, i read that in the paper too. dont worry, TOYOTA, will pick up the slack. ( newspapers almost obosolete too )


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

paul d. said:


> yeah william, i read that in the paper too. dont worry, TOYOTA, will pick up the slack. ( newspapers almost obosolete too )


 Toyota  Well I guess I will have to get used to it if I want to watch racing.


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## e57 (Jun 5, 2009)

LJSMITH1 said:


> Good post. We all know the only reason these chains come to town is to sell more product. It obviously works, because within years of a HD coming to town, most lumberyards or hardware stores are shutting their doors. Why? Because they can't compete with the prices and selection the big chains offer for the same product the customer wants. The only people who still shopped at those places were those with business/personal relationships with the staff or owner. They willingly paid more to show their loyalty. Unfortunately, that doesn't go far in business these days.


 What many small shops have learned is that they had to make things more user freindly to the HO/hack/handy type. It was what HD did as a primary sales device. Sure many of thier prices are lower on many things, but they did so at the expense of quality in many cases. They also standardized delivery and product to lower those prices at volume. (Try getting a dry 2x4 at HD....)


LJSMITH1 said:


> We can bash these big box stores all day long, but they are all there because the consumer wants them. Is the Milwaukee Saws-All the same in your HD as the one in your independent hardware store? Yes. Does HD have a cheaper price? Yes. Why? It's called price breaks for higher quantities. Call it unfair, un-ethical, un-American...but its good 'ol Capitalism. It's what this country was built on.


A number of items from a few manufacturers are a HD model, and done so for price. (Dewalt had a few) And few just for marketing reasons for contract compliance. (Ridgid changed their color to HD orange) Some have just cheapened out on the entire line to get into HD - why? Because they had no place to sell their wares because HD killed them off. Joe blow HO doesn't know or care about that, he just got up off the couch watching "this old house" on sunday, and he'll drive right by all of the other places he could have gone to if he knew what they were, and were open.... (Many places have learned that lesson and are now open later, and on week-ends, but fail because they don't have that national TV branded name recongition.)



LJSMITH1 said:


> BTW..the "HUSKY" brand has been around for awhile...


Sure they may have made a decent wrench at one point. But I'm weary of their ladders, and the rest of the _very broad range of crap_ they have that name on.


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## LJSMITH1 (May 4, 2009)

Unfortunately, the hack/HO/DIY person is only one component of HD and Lowes success. Contractors of every type are using HD as a one stop shop to get everything they need. This saves time and money. Yes, they both have some 'cheapened' products, but many of the items are the exact same as you would find in a True Value or Ace Hardware store. This direct competition has basis in price only, which many people would prefer to focus on, and is what is driving the marketplace. Quality, reliability, and convienience are all secondary concerns.

HD wood is not too bad when you find fresh stock (just off the truck). A lot of the 2X4, 2x6, etc. are left stacked outside in the rain and are allowed to get soaking wet. This is why lumber yards will have sheds to store KD wood to help keep the moisture content low.

While I am not a HD or Lowes fanatic, I do see why many people shop there.

My local True-Value hardware store has some crappy product, and almost as crappy service. However, sometimes I don't feel like taking a 20 minute ride to HD just to save a $1.50. Plus when I get into HD, I tend to drift into a daydreaming state looking at all the stuff, and then I forget what I went there for...I hate when that happens!


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## e57 (Jun 5, 2009)

LJSMITH1 said:


> HD wood is not too bad when you find fresh stock (just off the truck). A lot of the 2X4, 2x6, etc. are left stacked outside in the rain and are allowed to get soaking wet. This is why lumber yards will have sheds to store KD wood to help keep the moisture content low.


The ones to the south, north and east of here all have fir, and pine that were NEVER dried - sap just oosing out, and weigh 3 pounds a foot.....


LJSMITH1 said:


> ~when I get into HD, I tend to drift into a daydreaming state looking at all the stuff, and then I forget what I went there for...I hate when that happens!


They got you - that's how they get you. Overwhelm and distract.... :blink:


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## LJSMITH1 (May 4, 2009)

e57 said:


> The ones to the south, north and east of here all have fir, and pine that were NEVER dried - sap just oosing out, and weigh 3 pounds a foot.....They got you - that's how they get you. Overwhelm and distract.... :blink:


 
Yep, although any great hardware store with lots of stuff elicits the same response...must be a sickness..

If it stamped "KD" on the wood, it should be kiln dried. They do sell two different versions of 2x4's (in my area), and one is a bit less expensive. That's the sap/water laden version. I buy the light, dry stuff and make sure they are straight with no splits. Its worth the extra $1 each...


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