# Distance between ground rod and water pipe grounding?



## Elephante (Nov 16, 2011)

owl said:


> My boss was pointing out that there should be a distance of 8 feet between the ground rod connection and the water pipe connection. He gave an explanation for why this needs to be true, but I didn't quite understand it. Something about an infinite number of parallel ground paths being cut in half? Can anyone offer an explanation for this? I am about to go look up the code article.


he probably just doesn't want you to drive rod through the water pipe.lol


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## owl (Oct 31, 2012)

Elephante said:


> he probably just doesn't want you to drive rod through the water pipe.lol


Lol. Well, he was pointing out the problem in someone else's work, and saying the two were installed too close together. I'm pretty sure he wasn't worried about the ground rod going through the pipe.


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## ButcherSlayer (Oct 4, 2013)

I know 8 ft from rod to rod but never heard from rod to water main. Interesting lol


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## KGN742003 (Apr 23, 2012)

ButcherSlayer said:


> I know 8 ft from rod to rod but never heard from rod to water main. Interesting lol


It's 6 feet.

Edit: Actually after rereading 250.53 there is no minimum spacing for grounding electrodes of the same system. This is one of those things I was told coming up and apparently never checked for myself.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

There is no rule in the NEC regarding this you can place the electrode next to the water pipe.

But there is a theory that says the further apart the electrodes are the better said electrodes will work.

Read this

http://support.fluke.com/find-sales/Download/Asset/2633834_6115_ENG_A_W.PDF



> The resistance of the surrounding body of earth
> The ground electrode is surrounded by earth which conceptually is made up of concen- tric shells all having the same thickness. Those shells closest to the ground electrode have the smallest amount of area resulting in the greatest degree of resistance. Each subsequent shell incorporates a greater area resulting in lower resistance. This finally reaches a point where the additional shells offer little resistance to the ground surround- ing the ground electrode.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

It is way more than 6 ft to the poco transformer, and even farther to the poco overcurrent disconnecting break gizmo you see about every other mile or so. Since that is the *only* real thing all them rods are good for, I would say it is good enough to put the rod next to the water pipe anyway....


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

looselocknut said:


> Ground rods are very important for the safety of the home and the people in it. They also help dissipate the lightning when using one of these fancy whole house surge suppressors that I will add to your service change for just $279 more.
> 
> Or at least that's what I tell my customers.


$499, you leave too much on the ground.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Schussh. Listen to me. I am trying to help you get that van. 


I just got my new one. The Adrian shelves are not exactly the same depth so now I am stuck trying to figure out where everything is going to go.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Wouldn't fit under the garage doors. 9' max.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Guess I screwed up. I could have asked you about it first, but I couldn't find you.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Oh man, BBQ is right, Now I am talking to myself. I must be bat something or other crazy......:laughing:


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

ButcherSlayer said:


> I know 8 ft from rod to rod but never heard from rod to water main. Interesting lol





KGN742003 said:


> It's 6 feet.
> 
> Edit: Actually after rereading 250.53 there is no minimum spacing for grounding electrodes of the same system. This is one of those things I was told coming up and apparently never checked for myself.



You guys need to crack open a code book and stop believing everything someone tells you...frankly, it's embarassing.

Go read 250.53(A)(3) and 250.53(B)and see what the NEC actually says.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

ButcherSlayer said:


> No **** I know it's 6 ft but if YOU looked in the code book you would see it says not (LESS) than 6 ft smart guy. If you knew what you were talking about you would know to go a lil extra than touch the border. :thumbsup:



Settle down ...you have no idea what you are saying...lets revisit it:



ButcherSlayer said:


> I know 8 ft from rod to rod ..l





ButcherSlayer said:


> No **** I know it's 6 ft


:blink:
You know it's 8' and it's 6' :laughing:

Don't go getting all hostile with me after I showed you the proper section.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

ButcherSlayer said:


> Ok cornball what's your point. I'm not wrong so how you showing me something to begin with. Go to sleep


My point is: you appear to be an idiot who cannot tell the difference between 8' and 6'....I thought I made that clear.

How can you possible be correct when you give two different answers to the same question :blink:

:laughing:


Troll on Butch :thumbsup:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

It has to do with the 'concentric shells of earth' concept. The further apart the electrodes are, the better they function.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

ButcherSlayer said:


> U must b a helperr lol because both answers pass inspection. I though I made that clear to you idiot. Looks to me so did sparky lol :thumbup: aight im out. Keep thinking it through


Both do pass inspection ~ obviously...
but that was not the question...
you cannot say _I know it's 8'_ and ...
then say _I know it's 6'_....
[after I posted the article for you ]...
There IS a minimum distance and it's NOT the 8' that you "know".
You get no gold star for that :no:

You get called to the mat for not knowing what you say you say know....aka, BS'ing....and you did.

Like I said...settle down and go crack the code book open before you start telling anyone else "what you know" :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:


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## Edrick (Jun 6, 2010)

So we got 8', 6' and no minimum. So what is the final answer. What is the minimum between rods and what is the minimum between water main and rod?

I think we've gathered that there's no minimum between rod and main but what about rod and rod?


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

Well this is for your info brothers your all looking at the NEC which is a joke minimal 
90 percent of the engineers today need this but they don't know what there doing some say . 

30 foot between rods if your near a cold water pipe 3 foot no less 

If your near the foundation footers 3 foot no less .

So here we go lets see what sergeant major BBQ or corporal MTW has to say ?

This is due to the magnetic field that's extending out in shells passed the ground rod which is just like a antenna in the air . Basically its magnetic lines outward into mother earth by minute current flow in that rod .

If the Mag lines cross your over lapping the field of ground plane of installed multiple rods effective area of magnetic field around the rod or rods into the earths soil you don't want that . Its a cancelled effect of there shrouded field of coverage in the earths soil to be effective and actually work when needed . There is a flow of current which passes to earth 100 percent all the time its so small it can not be tested with a clamp but put a milliamp meter on a rod and on some jobs I have seen 10 amps on a rod were theres a problem with the electrical install . Sometimes theres a reason why we do things the correct way voltage balance lighting protection static current flow in the system . 
Over lapping also effects current flow when its time to discharge into the earth plus it screws up the testing guy when he does a fall of potential test .

For the ones who think resistance doesn't matter and that rods are just for a lighting strike your wrong .

So even if the NEC says nothing about distance there wrong .

That would include the resistance of rods or rod distance from other grounded metal objects that some think is not 
needed because they think the NEC is the word of god .

Trust me the NEC is guide to a minimal install so install it were it says 
do it per the NEC and have a great day .:thumbup:


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

Piperunner. Interesting. Maybe for data centers and cell towers. Commercial and home,?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

piperunner said:


> W
> This is due to the magnetic field that's extending out in shells passed the ground rod which is just like a antenna in the air . Basically its magnetic lines outward into mother earth by minute current flow in that rod .
> 
> If the Mag lines cross your over lapping the field of ground plane of installed multiple rods effective area of magnetic field around the rod or rods into the earths soil you don't want that . Its a cancelled effect of there shrouded field of coverage in the earths soil to be effective and actually work when needed . There is a flow of current which passes to earth 100 percent all the time its so small it can not be tested with a clamp but put a milliamp meter on a rod and on some jobs I have seen 10 amps on a rod were theres a problem with the electrical install . Sometimes theres a reason why we do things the correct way voltage balance lighting protection static current flow in the system .
> Over lapping also effects current flow when its time to discharge into the earth plus it screws up the testing guy when he does a fall of potential test .


Please provided more detailed information regarding this and when this occurs



> For the ones who think resistance doesn't matter and that rods are just for a lighting strike your wrong .



Please provide more detailed information on this as it regards to LV systems, 480/277 and 208/120 VAC 



> So even if the NEC says nothing about distance there wrong .


And I do believe those you chided above agree with this statement.


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## KGN742003 (Apr 23, 2012)

Edrick said:


> So we got 8', 6' and no minimum. So what is the final answer. What is the minimum between rods and what is the minimum between water main and rod?
> 
> I think we've gathered that there's no minimum between rod and main but what about rod and rod?


As long as they are on the same system, no minimum spacing.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

piperunner said:


> Well this is for your info brothers your all looking at the NEC which is a joke minimal
> 90 percent of the engineers today need this but they don't know what there doing some say .
> 
> 30 foot between rods if your near a cold water pipe 3 foot no less
> ...



I eagerly await more instruction on discharging into the earth. Is there a layer down there someplace that catches all them trons? Kinda like the ionosphere? Or do they go into a cave? I don't hardly get much chance to bend 4" so I don't know about such things.


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

.














Well if your standing on the ground with the 25 ohm NEC ground rod rule that no one checks in resi work ever and some time in the future you have a connection between metal and a line phase what do you think will happen if the breaker doesn't trip because of resistance at that point .

If your standing on earth you will be shocked yes no .


I think the NEC is a joke when it comes to ground rods if it had less than 25 ohms which I can tell you no one checks you might not get shocked as bad as the 25 ohm rule because current would pass into the rod not the person standing on the good old earth. Now I will say it depends on location to connection meaning if your lucky that day and happen to be further away from the point of being a higher resistance . 


And yes current does flow into the earth if it has no way of return to the source yes/ no its only limited by what ever resistance is in its path .

Like I said ive seen 10 Amps on a ground rod with a clamp meter and if you test one you would be surprised there is current flow on a rod .


Why its there because its a problem in the system leakage to ground it takes a path that returns it you need to find it but its there .

Micro amps milliamps and amps its flowing into that rod test it tell me iam wrong .

We just drive that old ground rod and walk away but its important to have the least amount of resistance on a rod for your benefit and all that electronics stuff we use today AC OR DC .


Its not just for lightning its a ground to keep everything at a equal potential and gives us a safe path when needed and ill say under some conditions but should be applied 100 percent . 


As to discharging into the earth the top layer of earth that 4 foot area is the soil that conducts the deeper you install a rod may give you less resistance on a test but its that 4 foot section on top that is your connection when you get hit by lighting . As to low voltage as Brian says current will flow if it has no other way of return to its supply . To me there is always a condition that can happen and I don't want to be in that area with 25 ohms to protect me .

But Iam just a monkey pipe junky .


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Thanks for this mornings fun PR.:laughing:

Stick with running pipe and leave the reasons and methods for grounding to those that have some proper training.:thumbsup:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Pipe this (in bold) is just not correct.

We just drive that old ground rod and walk away but its important to have the *least amount of resistance on a rod for your benefit and all that electronics stuff we use today AC OR DC* .


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

brian john said:


> Pipe this (in bold) is just not correct.
> 
> We just drive that old ground rod and walk away but its important to have the *least amount of resistance on a rod for your benefit and all that electronics stuff we use today AC OR DC* .


As is the thought that ground rods are going to protect people from getting shocks or that ground rods have anything at all to do with operting over current devices at 600 volts or less.


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## Fibes (Feb 18, 2010)

Well BBQ and Brian you guys just have never talked to an FP&L secretary.

:thumbup:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

macmikeman said:


> Oh man, BBQ is right, Now I am talking to myself. I must be bat something or other crazy......:laughing:


:laughing:

Doh!


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

BBQ said:


> As is the thought that ground rods are going to protect people from getting shocks or that ground rods have anything at all to do with operting over current devices at 600 volts or less.


Bob I have a problem I need your help with, I will be going on a trip soon (flying to Utah) and I want to use my laptop, what size GEC will I need to connect to Earth at 15,000 feet? And what do I do about the connection when we cross the Mississippi.:blink::whistling2:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

BBQ said:


> As is the thought that ground rods are going to protect people from getting shocks or that ground rods have anything at all to do with operting over current devices at 600 volts or less.


One of my favorite sayings is the Earth could care less.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Bring a bucket of dirt with you, place grounding plate in bucket. 

If you don't do this you will die.


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

i think a lot of old guys were taught just to use the other 8 foot ground rod to space it away from the first. not step potential, but its better to be more than an average guys wingspan apart if there is a bad connection to one of the rods. if you could touch both and there was a dif in potential, it could end up bad.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

cl219um said:


> i think a lot of old guys were taught just to use the other 8 foot ground rod to space it away from the first. not step potential, but its better to be more than an average guys wingspan apart if there is a bad connection to one of the rods. if you could touch both and there was a dif in potential, it could end up bad.


Yet I have seen ground rods driven in basements directly under the panel/

Testing has shown that driven electrodes function better when there a distance more that 6' between them.

I have read articles that state deep Earth grounding is more effective, but how effective a driven electrode is depends on types of soil, moisture content of the soil, depth of moisture, temperature changes.

What we do for a residence is drastically different from the electrode system for a telecommunication, data centers or large industrial facilities. But I still say when there are power quality issues adding more electrodes is a waste. Most facilities we work in these days have a large concrete surface area in direct contact with the Earth, hard to imagine 3-rods driven in a triad (Some engineers swear by this) will do much to lower the ground resistance in these facilities.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

owl said:


> My boss was pointing out that there should be a distance of 8 feet between the ground rod connection and the water pipe connection. He gave an explanation for why this needs to be true, but I didn't quite understand it. Something about an infinite number of parallel ground paths being cut in half? Can anyone offer an explanation for this? I am about to go look up the code article.


In my opinion a second electrode that is not very close to the primary electrode is a good idea. It gives the electricial system a better chance in the event that one or the other has a more moist soil condition. However, as I have said before, lightning does not just "ZING" to your neck of the woods looking for a place to go. The path sufficient for completion of the arc has to be there for the strike to get to you. Does that make sense?


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Thanks for this mornings fun PR.:laughing:
> 
> Stick with running pipe and leave the reasons and methods for grounding to those that have some proper training.:thumbsup:


 
Well BBQ let me ask you this question since you have the training what course did you take on grounding .

lets ask this does current flow in the earth yes/ no .

During a test does current flow from ground rod to test rod during the fall of potential test.

If your standing on the ground and you touch any phase leg ABC with your hand do you get shocked normally .

If a neutral is disconnected by a condition that may happen over time 
what happens to the return to the neutral when its not connected. 
Now does it effect PVC more so than EMT conduit when a neutral is burnt out or lost due to a bad connection on the main service .

Why do we use a bonding jumper on the service main .

If we had no ground rod to earth or any electrical contact with earth would that be ok with you .

Now don't take this wrong were simply asking you or Brian to give me a training lesson since we just run conduit and have no electrical back ground .

Give honest answers we don't want any smart comments or jokes 
lets talk about why we need a ground rod .

I already know about lightning lets skip that part and get to just the purpose of a ground rod and what could happen if not installed .

And explain why they picked 25 ohms or just add a extra rod and walk away .

If it has no purpose why is it in the code book does that mean the NEC is incorrect or out of date that today we really don't need it if it does nothing but pass lightning to ground . Now the best part of this would be in your favor if I get good results ill stay off the forum for a day or two with no conduit photos now I know that will motivate you guys you have my word .
And Brian like the funny comment have a good flight but lets include all ground earth applications with DC under the scope of the NEC would there be any system that with your experience testing need a earth ground like a ground rod to earth to operate .

Remember were just pipe monkeys so keep it simple so we can understand .:thumbup:


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

For a 3:55 am post there is sufficient time for some responses.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

RIVETER said:


> For a 3:55 am post there is sufficient time for some responses.


There is little point, he is set in his misbeliefs.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

brian john said:


> 3-rods driven in a triad (Some engineers swear by this) will do much to lower the ground resistance in these facilities.


Triangle ground rod voodoo :clap::laughing:


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## DIYer4Life (Nov 11, 2013)

cl219um said:


> i think a lot of old guys were taught just to use the other 8 foot ground rod to space it away from the first. not step potential, but its better to be more than an average guys wingspan apart if there is a bad connection to one of the rods. if you could touch both and there was a dif in potential, it could end up bad.


How would there be a difference in potential in 2 ground rods 6' away from each other that are bonded with a thick copper wire?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

> Well BBQ let me ask you this question since you have the training what course did you take on grounding


.

What does that have to do with anything?



> lets ask this does current flow in the earth yes/ no .


Depending on the voltage levels and soil conditions YES it can



> During a test does current flow from ground rod to test rod during the fall of potential test.


It can and a determination can be made of the Earth Resistance.



> If your standing on the ground and you touch any phase leg ABC with your hand do you get shocked normally .


First you would be a fool for doing it and second once again it depends on soil conditions.




> If a neutral is disconnected by a condition that may happen over time
> what happens to the return to the neutral when its not connected.


In a building with shared water pipe or other metallic components and a common transformer you have ground current ON THE METALLIC COMPONENTS. If none of the above exist and you have open neutral you now have series connections through your distribution system and depending on resistances in each phase you will fry equipment.



> Now does it effect PVC more so than EMT conduit when a neutral is burnt out or lost due to a bad connection on the main service .


PVC? PVC is non-conductive often called an insulator, so the current would be on the EGC, with EMT on the EMT I am missing your point on this?



> Why do we use a bonding jumper on the service main .


To insure a connection of all metallic components in a facility are referenced to the GROUNDED CONDUCTOR.



> If we had no ground rod to earth or any electrical contact with earth would that be ok with you .


In 99.9% of the cases yes but if there was a lightning strike or accidental connection to the primary there would be issues. Sites run with ungrounded services all the time, that is the phase conductors have no reference to ground. BUT the service is still grounded for LIGHTNING AND accidental contact with the utility primary.



> Now don't take this wrong were simply asking you or Brian to give me a training lesson since we just run conduit and have no electrical back ground .


You said it I didn't


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

PR

I can give you educated answers and if you like links to back up my statements.

I asked you earlier for substantial links and a explanation to back your argument and you did not or cannot provide it

The really sad thing here is some of us are having to discuss this with you. I surely thought with your back ground you knew basic grounding.

I know you feel Bob (BBQ) and I are complete dolts because of other discussions we have had with you. Go to Mike Holts forum and post your electrical beliefs, we'll post and see where the chips fall.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

brian john said:


> Bob I have a problem I need your help with, I will be going on a trip soon (flying to Utah) and I want to use my laptop, what size GEC will I need to connect to Earth at 15,000 feet? And what do I do about the connection when we cross the Mississippi.:blink::whistling2:


Would you not need to fly in a "GROUND" plane?:blink:


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

brian john said:


> PR
> 
> I can give you educated answers and if you like links to back up my statements.
> 
> ...


 

Well why would I need to go on mikes whats wrong with this forum 
I didn't provide any links because its my own words in my post .

I just say what I feel or how I think my own theory on a ground rod .

Brian you answered thats what I wanted to see iam not here to say your wrong . 

And you don't need to give me a link to back up or prove it .

Just would like to hear it from your own written words on this forum . 

I don't have any bad feelings I just talk this way normally so don't get your feathers ruffled up you gotta tuffen up kid . 

I guess we all have our own theorys and some have set out general guide lines layed out when it comes to electric and the NEC so I do understand your point its seems to upset some when I question it .

Now is there any reason beyond a primary or a lightning strike for a ground rod. 

Yes ive been in the trade since 1969 .
doesn't bother me to ask a question I just might learn something. 

Gee this is putting my reputation on the line maybe I should just post photos and call it a day . What rep didn't know I lost one .

Now DC power would not need a ground to earth under any operating electrical system is that the general rule of what your seeing Brian go ahead 
just be honest Yes /No .Or a complete narrative of your own thoughts .

Would you say the NEC covers all grounding of every system or does it just cover the systems we see everyday as electricians resi or commercial .

Why do we need a ground rod ?

You don't have to prove it just your own trusty words I don't need concrete facts just your theory Brian .


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

piperunner said:


> Well this is for your info brothers your all looking at the NEC which is a joke minimal
> 90 percent of the engineers today need this but they don't know what there doing some say .
> 
> 30 foot between rods if your near a cold water pipe 3 foot no less
> ...


The NEC can't describe in intimate detail all that is going on with an install. People like you...me...and the others on the forum sit around and try to make sense of the "theories". Your theory about the rings of fields emanating from a rod is interesting . It is my understanding that the reason that we want the egc of a circuit to be run in very close proximity to the phase conductors is that when the excess current flows due to a fault the fields emanating from the phase conductor cross the egc conductor and cause it to be even more conductive so as to cause the OL device to trip quickly. Would that theory be applied to your fields and therefore cause the other rods to be at more...rather than less advantage?


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

Well we understand that at 25 ohms or just two rods with no testing done can protect you from a lightning strike or a primary fault to your secondary service feeders and equipment .

I feel real safe now and know its in the NEC so that's it Brian BBQ you guys are correct .

I have no electrical training so I feel better asking you guys great answers it is now off my plate and it took just 40 years to find my way home .

So at 25 ohms or just add one more rod it will help you in a primary fault to secondary connection or a lightning strike . 

But less say 1 ohms or less multiple rods are voo doo that's understandable 
lets see if I go to MH I will get a different what answer there .

And we can see were the chips fall good answer there Brian cant wait to go over there and ask a NEC code freak about why the code book is maybe wrong 
no I don't have a link to what iam talking about did they have a link when they invented the light blub . Did they have a link when they invented the wheel .
How did they do it .

Sorry but me monkey sees it as you need more of a conductor to accomadate the current and I see more to a ground rod than just a fault or lightning strike 
it passes and connects things to earth that should go away or be part of that earth common to everything not just AC power and not be part of the system return to neutral because its at a different freq .


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

DIYer4Life said:


> How would there be a difference in potential in 2 ground rods 6' away from each other that are bonded with a thick copper wire?


if there is an underground fault anywhere. i am just telling you what my teacher at nwtc taught me 18 years ago.


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

also you are trying to give the neutral and your equipment ground on the premises the same potential as the ground . the neutral from poco could be coming from a long distance away where the potential is different.


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## DIYer4Life (Nov 11, 2013)

cl219um said:


> if there is an underground fault anywhere. i am just telling you what my teacher at nwtc taught me 18 years ago.


I want you to explain it to me. 

How would there be a difference in potential in 2 ground rods 6' away from each other that are bonded with a thick copper wire?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

cl219um said:


> if there is an underground fault anywhere. i am just telling you what my teacher at nwtc taught me 18 years ago.


What did he tell you?


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

DIYer4Life said:


> I want you to explain it to me.
> 
> How would there be a difference in potential in 2 ground rods 6' away from each other that are bonded with a thick copper wire?



I am only going to guess, but due to the small amount of resistance featured in every purchase of "thick copper wire" if you were to borrow one of Brian's fancy micro micro meters you could actually probably get a teeny slight difference in potential out of the two items. Kinda like how a crow on a high voltage line likes to balance on one leg . Teeny. 

Sidenote for Piperunner- I just love it when people say "Discharge into the earth". These dopes have continued to further the misbelief of those who think that there is a favorite restaurant down there where electrons want to go for lunch. So, piperunnerman, from now on I command you to use the term "return to source via the earth" instead of "discharge into the earth". If you don't comply you will not be allowed to go visit Planet Macmikeman to look at all the nice artwork featured there. You have been warned.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

> piperunner said:
> 
> 
> > Well we understand that at 25 ohms or just two rods with no testing done can protect you from a lightning strike or a primary fault to your secondary service feeders and equipment .
> ...


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

brian john said:


> What did he tell you?


he told me that what you are mainly doing is bringing the poco neutral to the same potential to earth at the service. the reason for the spacing was the wingspan of a person cannot touch both rods at once in case something happened to one of the connections on one of the rods and there was a fault to earth. i am not an iaei member. thats just what i was told.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

cl219um said:


> he told me that what you are mainly doing is bringing the poco neutral to the same potential to earth at the service.


For the average ground electrode only at the point where the rod is driven and along the copper GEC



> the reason for the spacing was the wingspan of a person cannot touch both rods at once in case something happened to one of the connections on one of the rods and there was a fault to earth. i am not an iaei member. thats just what i was told.



Than is a new one on me, what about a copper water pipe in your house and a cable faults to the pipe? Seems a more likely scenario, with a potential for shock?

I think he was WACKY

Look I only know a little I am not all that smart and always willing to learn, but if use logic and you will be able to debunk many misconceptions regarding grounding.

You want to see the real concerns in grounding? Screw the rod, lets look inside residences and facilities and make sure the bonding is correct, all EGC are installed properly and all metallic surfaces are bonded. There is the concern.


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

Well Brian finally I like the response good points well made now lets talk more about ground rods I might learn more .

Would you agree that a lightning strike under any conditions is at a very high frequency . Ill say this some strikes can be dc in theory meaning current flow but generally speaking a hit by lightning is from 33khz to MHz.

As to a fault condition a major phase to phase or phase to ground it is also at a high frequency not as high as the lightning strike but not at 120 cycles during the arcing between conductors or ground . And at any voltage from 120 volts to 15kv lets say 12KHz to 33 KHz during the short time in micro seconds as it discharges sorry iam old school . yes/no 


What iam getting at is if we install these rods in the ground they should be tested at a frequency to match impedance of rod at the high frequency

I know most 3 point test sets only go to say what Brian 125 cycles or what maybe 1k if .

To me were wasting our time installing this if its not correctly tested Yes /no 


A ground rod under fault or a strike is high freq and higher voltages during the arc . I also understand a ground rod can be by the nature of length and the soil surrounding forming a little capacitance in the circuit. By using three or more in a delta which can equally pass currents between soil and rods at high freq this means a wire becomes a capacitor .

And the three rods form this in theory which can help you in a major event when its a big blast . Were the single rod will do nothing but melt down . huh what
in florida I drive 30 foot single rod I get 14 ohms worst case tested then we install delta and test each they must be less than 10 ohms per rod we add 10 foot more now were at 9.56 ohms when ther all tied it must be less than 5 ohms per spec. :laughing: .

Each project is cold water building steel ground rods uffer ground all 4/0 cu and delta on gensets and a delta on the normal service plus each transformer has 4/0 bonding to neutral from a ground bar in each elec room. Each panel every room extra bond to the panel cans theres enough copper on grounding then most guys run all year on there projects average job we install bare 4/0 cu 5000 feet normally on one job.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

cl219um said:


> he told me that what you are mainly doing is bringing the poco neutral to the same potential to earth at the service. ...


Actually you are raising the voltage of the earth, for a small area around the grounding electrode, to that of the utility grounded conductor. You are not changing the voltage of the utility grounded conductor.


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> Actually you are raising the voltage of the earth, for a small area around the grounding electrode, to that of the utility grounded conductor. You are not changing the voltage of the utility grounded conductor.


never said you were changing voltage... equalizing potential.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

cl219um said:


> never said you were changing voltage... equalizing potential.


To the area directly next to the rod and no further.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

I've never tested such a short distance on a single rod, nor have I read anything that confirms it, but my understanding is that the six foot spacing is based on the idea that each rod has basically a 3 foot sphere of influence around it and as you intrude into the sphere of influence of an electrode, your earth resistance begins to increase.

My experience is that traditionally the zone of influence around an electrode is often tens of feet, but admittedly these are often ground grids which act differently. Still, that seems to be supported by the informational note added to 250.53(A)(3):


> Informational Note: The paralleling efficiency of rods is
> increased by spacing them twice the length of the longest rod.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

BBQ said:


> To the area directly next to the rod and no further.


Not in my yard I back filled my yard to a depth of 10' with copper dust


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

brian john said:


> Not in my yard I back filled my yard to a depth of 10' with copper dust


 Don't look now but crackheads are already out there shoveling your topsoil into cardboard boxes.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

cl219um said:


> never said you were changing voltage... equalizing potential.


But changing the voltage is exactly what is happening...the voltage of the earth, for a small distance around the ground rod, will be raised to match the voltage of the utility grounded conductor.


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> But changing the voltage is exactly what is happening...the voltage of the earth, for a small distance around the ground rod, will be raised to match the voltage of the utility grounded conductor.


whats the voltage of the earth?


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

cl219um said:


> whats the voltage of the earth?


im thinking the earth is gathering and losing electrons at any given moment. the ac system works of a steady opposition of neutral on both ends. neutral is ground. what voltage ?


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

cl219um said:


> im thinking the earth is gathering and losing electrons at any given moment...


 Don't think of it like that. 99% of the function of the earth in an electrical system is as a conductor made of dirt, nothing more.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

cl219um said:


> im thinking the earth is gathering and losing electrons at any given moment.


The earth is not an electron sponge, it does not just soak up or ring out spare electrons.

Almost all the current flow in a grounding electrode system will be current trying to use the earth as a conductor back to the source. Most often the source is a utility transformer.


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

BBQ said:


> The earth is not an electron sponge, it does not just soak up or ring out spare electrons.
> 
> Almost all the current flow in a grounding electrode system will be current trying to use the earth as a conductor back to the source. Most often the source is a utility transformer.


it is though. how many lightning strikes are ther at any given moment. lightning goes up and down btw.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Not for the purposes of electrical power distribution it's not. Lightning is a separate animal.


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

Big John said:


> Not for the purposes of electrical power distribution it's not. Lightning is a separate animal.


i have also done dist. work. thats all it is is a spark gap for higher voltages basically. la's i am talking.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

:confused1: I don't mean high voltage. I mean all alternating-current circuits associated with buildings. In those cases, the earth is not a sink for electrons. It's just a crappy wire.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

cl219um said:


> whats the voltage of the earth?


The earth, outside the influence of any grounding electrodes (often described as at least 50' from a grounding electrode) is assumed to have a voltage of zero.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> The earth, outside the influence of any grounding electrodes (often described as at least 50' from a grounding electrode) is assumed to have a voltage of zero.


The only way they can attempt to prove that is to do a three point test using the moon, Venus, and Mars for a reference.


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## Phaser (Nov 17, 2013)

piperunner said:


> Well Brian finally I like the response good points well made now lets talk more about ground rods I might learn more . Would you agree that a lightning strike under any conditions is at a very high frequency . Ill say this some strikes can be dc in theory meaning current flow but generally speaking a hit by lightning is from 33khz to MHz. As to a fault condition a major phase to phase or phase to ground it is also at a high frequency not as high as the lightning strike but not at 120 cycles during the arcing between conductors or ground . And at any voltage from 120 volts to 15kv lets say 12KHz to 33 KHz during the short time in micro seconds as it discharges sorry iam old school . yes/no What iam getting at is if we install these rods in the ground they should be tested at a frequency to match impedance of rod at the high frequency I know most 3 point test sets only go to say what Brian 125 cycles or what maybe 1k if . To me were wasting our time installing this if its not correctly tested Yes /no A ground rod under fault or a strike is high freq and higher voltages during the arc . I also understand a ground rod can be by the nature of length and the soil surrounding forming a little capacitance in the circuit. By using three or more in a delta which can equally pass currents between soil and rods at high freq this means a wire becomes a capacitor . And the three rods form this in theory which can help you in a major event when its a big blast . Were the single rod will do nothing but melt down . huh what in florida I drive 30 foot single rod I get 14 ohms worst case tested then we install delta and test each they must be less than 10 ohms per rod we add 10 foot more now were at 9.56 ohms when ther all tied it must be less than 5 ohms per spec. :laughing: . Each project is cold water building steel ground rods uffer ground all 4/0 cu and delta on gensets and a delta on the normal service plus each transformer has 4/0 bonding to neutral from a ground bar in each elec room. Each panel every room extra bond to the panel cans theres enough copper on grounding then most guys run all year on there projects average job we install bare 4/0 cu 5000 feet normally on one job.


I maybe new here but I have been lurking for some time your posts open up a part of electrical we over look or don't think about I agree with your grounding we do the same work mostly construction projects 3point delta grounding is the norm . Matts grids and tons of bare copper on all projects we work all over the country and 
Have been doing industrial plants & commercial for years. Nice to be here looks like a great forum I will chime in more like the conduit work piperunner!


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

Phaser said:


> I maybe new here but I have been lurking for some time your posts open up a part of electrical we over look or don't think about I agree with your grounding we do the same work mostly construction projects 3point delta grounding is the norm . Matts grids and tons of bare copper on all projects we work all over the country and
> Have been doing industrial plants & commercial for years. Nice to be here looks like a great forum I will chime in more like the conduit work piperunner!


 
Well thanks NY but the best thing is never agree with me on this forum. LOL :laughing: Just a joke glad for you to join the ET forum what jobs are you doing up north data center ?


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

macmikeman said:


> The only way they can attempt to prove that is to do a three point test using the moon, Venus, and Mars for a reference.


There is no reason to prove an assumption.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Phaser Welcome to the forum




> Phaser said:
> 
> 
> > I maybe new here but I have been lurking for some time your posts open up a part of electrical we over look or don't think about
> ...


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

Well Brian if lightning strikes or a major fault happens what is the frequency at that moment in time .
You test at a low freq I see most testers can go up to 25 kHZ looking at 
different ones on the market today .

Whats your thoughts on this doesn't the total impedance change increase if frequency is increased in the mega hz range in circuit .


So its my own thinking that if it goes up then the rods are not tested correctly when we test at the lower frequency YES/NO ?

That theres really no protection because its a lot higher freq then the test .Because the impedance is a lot higher at that moment vey high .

So if you lower the resistance to less then one ohm it would be better 
or what ? Not that it matters if your hit directly but just a thought .

Also the time or duration of a hit or fault would be a factor YES/NO ?


This is why even on a commercial job we ground it maybe some day it might be needed 
maybe it might just work or it might not but its better than one rod at 25 ohms YES/NO ?


To answer your question on the 10 amps the power companys transformer had a problem they replaced it and the 10 amps went away I used a standard clamp on amprobe and if you took off the ground connection at the rod with hot gloves it had a spark to it there was power there my friend .


In our state of florida we have a better grounding connection then most states due to the soil and you can see why we get hit more than any other state in the USA that's why our grounding is the way it is . So I don't agree with the code book on 25 ohms .


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

piperunner said:


> fWell Brian if lightning strikes or a major fault happens


Please describe what you mean by a 'major fault'.


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Please describe what you mean by a 'major fault'.


Well lets say your neutral is lost burnt out or the neutral or phases have no way of return to the transformer but one leg of one phase is still connected in the building . I know its a short time but it only takes mirco seconds to flash . And that's if the breaker works correctly I think it would cross over the contacts and burn its way out.

And all the other phases are crow barred shorted what happens during that short time span even if the breaker trips or blows out of the switchboard .


Basically all phase some phases to each other what happens to all the inductance inside the building when it all returns the energy back into the system were does it go not the transformer it has no connection to the system YES/NO ?
Were looking at the code book because it covers commercial and there is lots of motors and lots of transformers in house were I work so when you say its not related to what were talking about yes it is my friend .
It goes to ground .


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

piperunner said:


> Well lets say your neutral is lost burnt out or the neutral or phases have no way of return to the transformer but one leg of one phase is still connected in the building .


So you are talking about an open neutral or hot but not a short?




> I know its a short time but it only takes mirco seconds to flash . And that's if the breaker works correctly I think it would cross over the contacts and burn its way out.
> 
> And all the other phases are crow barred shorted what happens during that short time span even if the breaker trips or blows out of the switchboard .
> 
> ...


I really do not understand what you are trying to say.

Are you trying to suggest the grounding electrode system plays a role in the operation of breakers and fuses in systems under 600 volts?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

BBQ said:


> So you are talking about an open neutral or hot but not a short?
> 
> 
> I really do not understand what you are trying to say.
> ...


 
I am having trouble following the logic or intent of the post but I think it has been stated.

Discussing 600 VAC and lower systems, 

1. The Earth plays no role in the operation of the AS distribution system on a day to day basis.
2. The Earth plays no role in operating OCPs, during a fault.
3. If you lose a neutral unless there is metal to metal contact between facilities on a common transformer, you will fry equipment, the Earth will not have a low enough resistance to work as a conductor.
4. In a lightning strike or inadvertent contact with the primary a grounding electrode will function at some level in a beneficial way.
5. Once item 4 has happened the grounding electrode may be damaged.
6. To obtain levels PR has suggested (1 ohm) would not be practical in the vast majority of homes and commercial establishments.
7. Then if it was acceptable to a 1 ohm level, how long would it stay that way?
8. Additionally the #6 would need to be upsized, the installers would have to do a better job installing and terminating the GEC. 


Lastly I cannot find the link but something I read some time ago detailed different states Earth to Ground Resistance, this document listed Florida as having high resistance values due to the soil is primarily sand. BUT I COULD BE WRONG I will look further for the document


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

brian john said:


> I am having trouble following the logic or intent of the post but I think it has been stated.
> 
> Discussing 600 VAC and lower systems,
> 
> ...


 
In florida one rod gives generally 20 ohms that's average two rods may drop it down from 3 to 4 ohms three rods it gets less .

On a average install I must get less than 5 ohms total on all the rods which is a delta three separate driven rods 30 feet apart in a triangle I must get 10 ohms or less on any single rod it maybe 30 foot or 40 foot driven .

Brian I have never had a problem getting less than one ohm in florida we test each rod per spec during driving time .

All equipment in the building must be tied to a grounding buss bar and attached all transformers bonded from case with a jumper attached this is crimped on bus bars generally . 

I understand your point Brian trust me I respect you but I just don't understand why they pick 25 ohms . 

And I don't really think a strike will pass better down that 25 ohms which like you said can change over time and to me least resistance is the path so it doesn't stray out to other equipment it just might go to that rod . With the higher freq at which it is at I see hundreds of ohms .

In florida were at or below the water table so if you go down you have 
a good connection all the time . 

Plus like I said we have more lightning strikes than any place on earth just so you know we have coral rock and dirt here also your just thinking the coastal areas that's sand we have dirt in florida . I think theres a place in Africa which has more ill check believe me I have witness in my time in florida a few hands on lightning strikes actually been there on a job site and have witnessed the damage and that's normal here .Funny but if you golf here you have been to a lightning strike at least once .


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

piperunner said:


> In florida one rod gives generally 20 ohms that's average two rods may drop it down from 3 to 4 ohms three rods it gets less .
> 
> On a average install I must get less than 5 ohms total on all the rods which is a delta three separate driven rods 30 feet apart in a triangle I must get 10 ohms or less on any single rod it maybe 30 foot or 40 foot driven .
> 
> ...


This is complete bs. One rod in va is anout 85 ohms. It can take( 30- 40) 30' rods to get down to one ohm. Thats only done here for cell towers. We did 8 of them last year. You will NEVER get the measurements you describe with one rod!


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

> I understand your point Brian trust me I respect you but I just don't understand why they pick 25 ohms .


Somebody once posted where this number originated from, for me it is just a random number picked out of the air and is meaningless as almost no one test for it they just drive a second electrode.



> Plus like I said we have more lightning strikes than any place on earth just so you know we have coral rock and dirt here also your just thinking the coastal areas that's sand we have dirt in florida . I think theres a place in Africa which has more ill check believe me I have witness in my time in florida a few hands on lightning strikes actually been there on a job site and have witnessed the damage and that's normal here .Funny but if you golf here you have been to a lightning strike at least once .


Actually there is a place in Africa that exceeds Florida's count for lightning strikes


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

piperunner said:


> In florida one rod gives generally 20 ohms that's average two rods may drop it down from 3 to 4 ohms three rods it gets less . ...


Really? Two 20 ohm resistors (grounding electrodes) in parallel will not give you 3 or 4 ohms.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

One thing piperunner is right about is the water table. Any 8 foot rod driven south of Vero Beach will have some portion in the water table (unless the surface grade level has been artificially raised up . When we used to dig holes in SW Florida we hit fresh water at about three or four feet every time. 

25 ohms was the standard set up back in telegraph days. It is a holdover.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

World Lightning Strike Map

http://geology.com/articles/lightning-map.shtml


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Because I'm ADD, I'll post this picture I think is neat:








Not Photoshop, just time-lapse of Ikaria, Greece.


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

macmikeman said:


> One thing piperunner is right about is the water table. Any 8 foot rod driven south of Vero Beach will have some portion in the water table (unless the surface grade level has been artificially raised up . When we used to dig holes in SW Florida we hit fresh water at about three or four feet every time.
> 
> 25 ohms was the standard set up back in telegraph days. It is a holdover.


 
Well actually in Vero beach I did the refit 45 mega watt at V power plant and when we drove ground rods deep which went into the coral rock bed we drilled holes and installed rods cad welded together 60 foot down . But yes you have a better connection in Florida to mother earth .


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

....


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Cletis said:


> The Congo gets hit by lightening the most. This area has thunderstorms all year round as a result of moisture-laden air masses from the Atlantic Ocean encountering mountains. It's god's way of punishing the muslims


As much as I love discussing grounding, this post is now officially dead.

Clete checked in


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> Really? Two 20 ohm resistors (grounding electrodes) in parallel will not give you 3 or 4 ohms.


 
Well first you don't know what your talking about both of you guys let me repeat this normally 90 % of the jobs . Ground rods are not resistors they don't work like resistors the earth gives you the resistance Resqcapt iam surprised at you .

We install one or two rods together meaning straight down so a single rod we test that rod with the Biddle tester which is at around 20 ohms average .


Then we install next rod 30 feet away another set of two single cad welded together and then we install the delta third set each has two rods . 

All rods are 3/4" copper cald we don't use crap rods and we weld not screwed couplings are a high resistance never used on our projects. 

If we don't get less than 10 ohms we add rods down when we get all of the sets close as we can but must be less than 10 ohms they vary as a single rod . We connect all in a delta with 4/0 copper cad welded and test the whole system of just the delta rods it must be less than 5 ohms that is normal but we can get 1/2 ohm on just the rods together . That's not BS been during it for many years only rare cases we add more rods in our state this is not Vermont or New York .


When we add cold water building steel uffer and the entire ground bar system its less than 1/2 ohm or less always never installed a grounding system in this state with a 25 ohm ground rod system . 

I will post our testing companys report but with out there name which I will not show because its not a good business practice. Just to prove you don't know what grounding is in my state .

Now lets look at it this way if you had a lightning strike on a building and the metal roof or say a tower for communications now the tower or roof was at 16 ohms and the distribution ground bars at 20 ohms 
The ground rod was at 25 ohms . 

What damage could be avoided if the ground rod was less than the tower or the roof because lightning hit this building twice a year . The cost was extreme engineers redesigned the grounding system and I know you will not believe me but it was the space center true story . Theres so many hits on the structures the grounding system is the best .

The rods are stainless also the first 4 foot of the top rods close to the surface meaning the last rod installed after it passes the resistance test has a special coating applied at the earth surface at 4 foot . Its a rubber coating applied 4 feet down from the top of the rod it makes the lightning go deeper ill bet you don't believe that do you . LOL


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

piperunner said:


> Well first you don't know what your talking about both of you guys let me repeat this normally 90 % of the jobs .
> 
> We install one or two rods together meaning straight down so a single rod we test that rod with the Biddle tester which is at around 20 ohms average .
> 
> ...


None of that addresses your statement that said..


> In florida one rod gives generally 20 ohms that's average two rods may drop it down from 3 to 4 ohms three rods it gets less .


If they are at 20 ohms each, you cannot get below 10 ohms with two rods. 
Also if you are talking about lightning protection, deeper, even with a lower ground resistance, is not better. The best lighting protection grounding electrodes are long radial electrodes a couple of feet below the surface.


----------



## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> None of that addresses your statement that said..
> 
> If they are at 20 ohms each, you cannot get below 10 ohms with two rods.
> Also if you are talking about lightning protection, deeper, even with a lower ground resistance, is not better. The best lighting protection grounding electrodes are long radial electrodes a couple of feet below the surface.


Well I guess your not reading we install two rods and test them we do this three times in a 30 foot delta triangle .


Now we test the sets one at a time if we don't get 10 ohms on any set of the three are you following ok .


We add rods but in my state it only takes a few rods to get 10 ohms its the location or maybe the soil . But we might go down with one more rod or two 
so lets say its 30 foot of rods down or 40 foot down we must get 10 ohms or less .

And when all the rods are in a delta its less than 5 ohms but normally less than a 1/2 ohm . Thats totally connected weld all in a delta formation with copper wire .

Do you understand what I just said or do I need explain this in detail have you ever installed a ground rod system yourself seems like your all lost on how its done .

I think your not understanding the boys at the cape who design things know its better because there center gets hit at least twice a year trust me hit 
a strike direct hit . The long radial is what better than in some case generally yes but in some applications no .


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

piperunner said:


> So here we go lets see what sergeant major BBQ or corporal MTW has to say ?


Getting to this a little late since I've been traveling a lot lately, but you have no clue what you're talking about when it comes to electrical theory.


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

MTW said:


> Getting to this a little late since I've been traveling a lot lately, but you have no clue what you're talking about when it comes to electrical theory.


Well if your back were ever you traveled too ill bet the folks there are glad you not there any more . You must be fairly certain of your electrical theory 
what would you like to discuss other than ground rods right here and now .

Ask besides your code book


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

piperunner said:


> Well if your back were ever you traveled too ill bet the folks there are glad you not there any more . You must be fairly certain of your electrical theory
> what would you like to discuss other than ground rods right here and now .
> 
> Ask besides your code book



Two things: you sarcastically invoked my name in your opening post so did you not expect me to reply?

Secondly, I am certain of electrical theory because I have studied it in depth. You look down your nose at anyone who had educated themselves and I know this from your countless postings where you mock educated people. 

As for ground rods, answer this question: what benefit does a low impedance earth connection provide for a premises wiring system? (Excluding lightning protection.)


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

MTW said:


> Two things: you sarcastically invoked my name in your opening post so did you not expect me to reply?
> 
> Secondly, I am certain of electrical theory because I have studied it in depth. You look down your nose at anyone who had educated themselves and I know this from your countless postings where you mock educated people.
> 
> As for ground rods, answer this question: what benefit does a low impedance earth connection provide for a premises wiring system? (Excluding lightning protection.)


Well we get sarcastic when your sarcastic I think I agreed with Brian about ground rods a few posts back I agree that lightning is one major factor and a primary fault to the secondary . 

I just don't agree with the 25 ohm nec code rule generally .

Read my post I explained it but no ones seeing anything but the code and Brian is the only one who could debate it with me he actually made his points .

But if you like to discuss this further ill catch you later ill be back for more of your theory lessons . 

You can ask me anything about electrical theory ill be more than happy to give my input . That would include electronics my friend go for it prove your point you seem to think I just run conduit as a construction electrician .


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

piperunner said:


> Well we get sarcastic when your sarcastic I think I agreed with Brian about ground rods a few posts back I agree that lightning is one major factor and a primary fault to the secondary .
> 
> I just don't agree with the 25 ohm nec code rule generally .
> 
> ...


Uh huh, well if you feel so passionately about it you can submit a proposal to the NEC. We've established that lightning protection is important but that still leaves a plain old premises wiring system hanging. What say you about that?



> You can ask me anything about electrical theory ill be more than happy to give my input . That would include electronics my friend go for it prove your point you seem to think I just run conduit as a construction electrician .


I only know of your knowledge of electrical theory from what you post and so far it appears your knowledge is quite limited or downright incorrect.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

piperunner said:


> Well actually in Vero beach I did the refit 45 mega watt at V power plant and when we drove ground rods deep which went into the coral rock bed we drilled holes and installed rods cad welded together 60 foot down . But yes you have a better connection in Florida to mother earth .


I said south of Vero beach.........:thumbsup:


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

macmikeman said:


> I said south of Vero beach.........:thumbsup:


 
Well the surf sucks in Vero the best there was to jump off the bridge at 100 feet that's about it down there now its all condos and golf resorts .LOL


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

MTW said:


> Uh huh, well if you feel so passionately about it you can submit a proposal to the NEC. We've established that lightning protection is important but that still leaves a plain old premises wiring system hanging. What say you about that?
> Well personally theres more to grounding then just premises wiring but you should know that .
> 
> 
> I only know of your knowledge of electrical theory from what you post and so far it appears your knowledge is quite limited or downright incorrect.


 OK peter D 
Why that's a great point your wrong or incorrect do you think current doesn't flow in the earth. 

Its wrong because that's what your told on a post but have no proven facts show me that in a link . Does the code book say that at 600 volts a ground rod is non conductive it will not pass current from that point to another grounded or ungrounded object in earth or soil .

At any point or condition electric current will not what pass from point to point because its 600 volts or less .

Do you think current DC or AC less than 600 volts will not flow in the good old dirt . Then how do we test a rod with out that electric current .

You need to go back and study more it will under the correct conditions low or high voltage .

Only the code book is minimal they don't cover every condition and a ground rod is more than just a rod on projects.

I still didn't get a answer about lightning that at kHz / mega hz the rods today are not tested correctly .

Let me ask you this do you think a ground rod is just a resistor in theory ?

At a fault or a strike time it becomes a impedance it has capacitance and inductance yes /no come on lets see what your thoughts maybe .

Look up geophysics see how they plot the earth study it with electric current its the Wenner test current flows in the earth or the Schlumberger method there a few more but youll get the point .

Its funny but if you test a rod that's not the resistance of the earth you need to figure that from the resistance of the rod or rods meaning its less than the tested results . So when you test that's you total R 
not just the rod so your rod is lower or maybe higher depends on whats installed were . gotta go to work have a great day !


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## greenlee (Feb 7, 2012)

*Ground rod issue*

I usually put the rod right below the water main on the tail end of the gec. Last week an inspector said it was o.k. but he likes them apart in case the electrode conductor accidenally gets cut so you still have the rod at a different location. However that was just his opinion and not from the book.


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## Fibes (Feb 18, 2010)

Author unknown 



> Arguing with an idiot can be time consuming and mentally draining. Arguing with an idiot is a lot like a saying my dad used to tell me, "Never wrestle with a pig, you'll both get dirty and the pig will enjoy it." In other words, don't argue with an idiot, you both look stupid and the idiot enjoys it!
> 
> So, consider the overall need for such a discussion. If the outcome you are seeking is not extremely valuable, break off the discussion sooner versus later. You'll save your brain cells and your mental sanity.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Pipe not trying to climb on, but you realize a circle would be better than a DELTA configuration, as you would use more bare copper in the ground. 

Just a thought,

The delta in relation to ground rods coming from engineers drives me bonkers because some actually think it makes a difference.


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## DIYer4Life (Nov 11, 2013)

I just drove 2 ground rods 6.6' apart from each other, what do I win?


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

DIYer4Life said:


> I just drove 2 ground rods 6.6' apart from each other, what do I win?


A thank you from the ground rod makers of America.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

BBQ said:


> A thank you from the ground rod makers of America.


You're still a jerk.....


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

owl said:


> My boss was pointing out that there should be a distance of 8 feet between the ground rod connection and the water pipe connection. He gave an explanation for why this needs to be true, but I didn't quite understand it. Something about an infinite number of parallel ground paths being cut in half? Can anyone offer an explanation for this? I am about to go look up the code article.


Your boss is mistaken.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> You're still a jerk.....


. and you are still a angry midget.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

I am just wondering: Is there anyone on this forum who thinks that the purpose of an EGC is to send a fault current to GROUND. Those who know, just wait and not jump in.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

brian john said:


> I am having trouble following the logic or intent of the post but I think it has been stated.
> 
> Discussing 600 VAC and lower systems,
> 
> ...


I agree with you. Isn't it crazy that the industry mandates that the thing MOST UNWANTED thing for an electrical service must be given the most attractive path? Bottom line is that you can drive rods at 3" on center for 15 feet linearly and connect them together and lightning will not strike unless all of the NATURAL conditions are there.


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

Well if you think iam a idiot that's ok but you may want to read this and theres a few more sources of electric flow in the earth below 600 volts .

US patent 8111496 before you read your code book . This is just one fact or link you asked for . Take time to read before you say earth and a rod do nothing now we know ac will flow above 600 volts but this is dc power .

And theres more just read this one ill provide more if your looking in your code book its not there .LOL 
Theres another funny one do you think the good old earth soil your standing on can make electric power not mega watts but power enough to power a light .

Ill give you a link to battery powered by dirt .


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

piperunner said:


> Well if you think iam a idiot that's ok but you may want to read this and theres a few more sources of electric flow in the earth below 600 volts .
> 
> US patent 8111496 before you read your code book . This is just one fact or link you asked for . Take time to read before you say earth and a rod do nothing now we know ac will flow above 600 volts but this is dc power .
> 
> ...


 

Pipe I am NO CODE EXPERT and my grounding experience and knowledge are based on my readings and involvement in grounding revolves around trouble shooting ground issues, testing ground systems, installing grounding systems. There may be some locations where the Earth has a low enough resistance to pass current (MY BACK YARD due to copper dust backfill noted above) but the majority of the Earth, this just ain't so.

Lastly I do not remember anyone calling you a idiot. Questioning you knowledge of the subject yes. I have over the years many such discussions with electricians and when SHOWN IN FIELD TEST that they were wrong, they still stood there and told me I was full of BS. Old ideas and misconceptions die hard.


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

brian john said:


> Pipe I am NO CODE EXPERT and my grounding experience and knowledge are based on my readings and involvement in grounding revolves around trouble shooting ground issues, testing ground systems, installing grounding systems. There may be some locations where the Earth has a low enough resistance to pass current (MY BACK YARD due to copper dust backfill noted above) but the majority of the Earth, this just ain't so.
> 
> Lastly I do not remember anyone calling you a idiot. Questioning you knowledge of the subject yes. I have over the years many such discussions with electricians and when SHOWN IN FIELD TEST that they were wrong, they still stood there and told me I was full of BS. Old ideas and misconceptions die hard.


 
Well theres a lot of misconceptions but lets look at IEC-61312-1
my view a strike or impulse surge hit ect .
A= Z/R formula of coefficient of a ground rod 


The ratio of peak voltage to the peak voltage across a purely resistive ground rod or wire R= grd rod resistance .

A rod has a series inductance in addition to its resistance . by that inductance which increases in length of rod.


A rod has a parallel capacitance in addition to its resistance which increases by short rod length .


To me theres your answer to why most engineers use multiple delta rod systems its a LCR circuit it must use the power of its input into circuit to 
cancel the effects of a strike .

A delta rod system is not just rods to lower just the resistance but a combination of a circuit . Which in fact protects better in a event of a strike .Inductance and capacitance with resistance at fault time and lightning time that combination is designed to just do a better job than a two rod install at 25 ohms . 

I think Brian were getting old and I learn more as I age I never thought about ground rods until I worked on a project once that got hit by lightning once a month . And started looking into it more I maybe be wrong but that's my answer to why we do it or why our spec,s make us .
I did not include the soil but its part of the circuit that's needed to function and that is important but I think you understand my theory which is the main reason we use three rods in a delta .

I believe its a snubber circuit lightning has a low freq and a high freq the distance of the rod in the soil and the spacing of the rods make up you circuit .
I also think they should call it a shunt circuit but what do I know I just run pipe all day .


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

piperunner said:


> Well if you think iam a idiot that's ok but you may want to read this and theres a few more sources of electric flow in the earth below 600 volts .
> 
> US patent 8111496 before you read your code book . This is just one fact or link you asked for . Take time to read before you say earth and a rod do nothing now we know ac will flow above 600 volts but this is dc power .
> 
> ...


Do a "Show and Tell" example.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

piperunner said:


> Well theres a lot of misconceptions but lets look at IEC-61312-1
> my view a strike or impulse surge hit ect .
> A= Z/R formula of coefficient of a ground rod
> 
> ...


If I had a system that was getting struck by lightning once a month I think I would quit GROUNDING the system so well.


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> If I had a system that was getting struck by lightning once a month I think I would quit GROUNDING the system so well.


Come to the space coast if it wasn't grounded it would be worst then grounded my friend .


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

piperunner said:


> Come to the space coast if it wasn't grounded it would be worst then grounded my friend .


Do you really think that grounding a system keeps it safe from strikes?


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> Do you really think that grounding a system keeps it safe from strikes?


 
Well no nothing can its going to happen and our state its everyday .
A good grounding system unlike a two rod system un tested is better when you get hit . Unless you live in a place were its not going to happen .


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

piperunner said:


> Well no nothing can its going to happen and our state its everyday .
> A good grounding system unlike a two rod system un tested is better when you get hit . Unless you live in a place were its not going to happen .


You are right.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

RIVETER said:


> If I had a system that was getting struck by lightning once a month I think I would quit GROUNDING the system so well.


 
We have sites on mountain tops that get struck several times a month. and in Florida it can be worse especially for tall towers in a field.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

piperunner said:


> Well no nothing can its going to happen and our state its everyday .
> A good grounding system unlike a two rod system un tested is better when you get hit . Unless you live in a place were its not going to happen .


But in our original discussion lightning was never the issue and I do believe everyone agreed for lightning it was necessary. But the two rod residential, with number 6 AWG all haphazardly installed would be marginal at best,

Flat braid though only used at the I/O of a site for com seems to function best, no tight bends, multiple rods run in laterals, lots of copper conductor in the ground, and then pray you do not get a super stroke.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

piperunner said:


> Well no nothing can its going to happen and our state its everyday .
> A good grounding system unlike a two rod system un tested is better when you get hit . Unless you live in a place were its not going to happen .


Alaska?


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

brian john said:


> We have sites on mountain tops that get struck several times a month. and in Florida it can be worse especially for tall towers in a field.


Do you ever think that if you could build a grounding tower, or such for the purpose of directing the strikes away from the equipment that would be a good thing?:thumbsup:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

RIVETER said:


> Do you ever think that if you could build a grounding tower, or such for the purpose of directing the strikes away from the equipment that would be a good thing?:thumbsup:



That is what they do with Franklin rods on a building have them be the tallest structure on the roof line at regular spaced distances.oy has it the tal;les structure is most likely to be hit but these tower in a field or the Space Shuttle are hard to protect.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Pipe where are you in FLA?


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

I have but one thing to say about the Space Coast.- Fudpuckers. 

You had to be there..


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

macmikeman said:


> I have but one thing to say about the Space Coast.- Fudpuckers.
> 
> You had to be there..


I have been there not one of my favorite places BY A LONG SHOT


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

brian john said:


> Pipe where are you in FLA?


 
Well I live in Orlando but we work all over the state and most southern states including a few countrys at times .

I dont like to travel so I stay local been here since the 70,s funny but seen strikes on a clear sunny day.
Ive seen strikes while at work I don't think we can go a month without it . The worst is they hit near the job or hit our tower crane and fry all the electronics so the cranes down for the day which is costing us big money when the cranes down .You don't have to get a direct hit just a near one 
its big problem I guess if your working outside you get to see more then persons inside a office all day .Summer months it rains everyday some years its dry but you still get a afternoon lightning show some place . The space coast is dead nothing is going on not much construction anymore its over . Thanks to budget cuts and Obamacare lets see lightning hits the earth 100 times per second and 80 % of that is in Florida so that's why were nuts for living here .


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