# Gfci for commercial hand wash stations.



## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Very curious what you're reading that makes you feel it needs a GFCI? While it might be standard wisdom, you'd come up empty if you were hunting an actual code requirement for this.


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## nathan.hoggatt (Jan 31, 2018)

MDShunk said:


> Very curious what you're reading that makes you feel it needs a GFCI? While it might be standard wisdom, you'd come up empty if you were hunting an actual code requirement for this.


Nec17 requirements stating that receptacles within 6' of top edge of the sink need gfci protection. 210.8(B)(5)

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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

Time to break out the megger.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

More people die from disease than shocks at an automatic faucet. Removal of power by a GFCI introduces a greater hazard. Hand washing is more important.


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## nathan.hoggatt (Jan 31, 2018)

While i agree with you skunk, there has to be a reason the sink is tripping it.

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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

nathan.hoggatt said:


> While i agree with you skunk, there has to be a reason the sink is tripping it.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


. 

Yes, of course. Why not tackle it from that direction instead?


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## nathan.hoggatt (Jan 31, 2018)

That's what I'm trying to get them to do. But the manufacturers rep insists its the gfci so im being asked to remove it.

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## nathan.hoggatt (Jan 31, 2018)

nathan.hoggatt said:


> That's what I'm trying to get them to do. But the manufacturers rep insists its the gfci so im being asked to remove it.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


The sink and the receptacle beneath it. Note the numerous water lines and drain line within 6-8" of the receptacle.









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## MotoGP1199 (Aug 11, 2014)

If thats a bathroom you have to have a GFCI


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## nathan.hoggatt (Jan 31, 2018)

MotoGP1199 said:


> If thats a bathroom you have to have a GFCI


It is between two bathrooms but is no actually in them.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

nathan.hoggatt said:


> The sink and the receptacle beneath it. Note the numerous water lines and drain line within 6-8" of the receptacle.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Man that’s a cluster under that sink. 
I would test the GFCI and see if it’s operating correctly. 
If so, it’s the unit. 
Is the unit new?
What did the product install paperwork say?
I just installed a bunch in a preschool and 2 out of about 10 were bad sink units out of the box. 

I see you have school listed on your profile. I would sure not want to be the one to shock a kid. Even if it had tamper proof screws on the cover I would still be worried.


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## nathan.hoggatt (Jan 31, 2018)

Wirenuting said:


> Man that’s a cluster under that sink.
> I would test the GFCI and see if it’s operating correctly.
> If so, it’s the unit.
> Is the unit new?
> ...


Yes it is new. Both the sink and the gfci. I have replaced the gfci once because the one the contractor installed was a 15 amp. I replaced it with a 20. And still have the same problem. My boss who is not an electrician dont believe me that ots not the gfci.

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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

nathan.hoggatt said:


> Yes it is new. Both the sink and the gfci. I have replaced the gfci once because the one the contractor installed was a 15 amp. I replaced it with a 20. And still have the same problem. My boss who is not an electrician dont believe me that ots not the gfci.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


Changing from a 15 to 20 does not alter the trip threshold.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Wirenuting said:


> Changing from a 15 to 20 does not alter the trip threshold.


Both 15 and 20 amp 120 V GFCI device do have same tripping level. 

That I do agree with wirenuting.,

Just unplug the unit and test the GFCI and use the test function to make sure it working properly., If so then the sink unit is bad. 

It could be bad connection somewhere in the sink unit. 

You have to divide and conquer it. that is the only surefire way to see where it is. 

Even over here in my area I do get few bad one too once a while.


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## nathan.hoggatt (Jan 31, 2018)

frenchelectrican said:


> Both 15 and 20 amp 120 V GFCI device do have same tripping level.
> 
> That I do agree with wirenuting.,
> 
> ...


Agreed, however the nature of my question is with regards to the legal requirement that the receptacle be gfci protected or not.

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## pudge565 (Dec 8, 2007)

Clearly a sink and therefor the GFCI is required per the code you referenced. At least I would not give anyone a pass sticker if it was not GFCI protected.


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## canbug (Dec 31, 2015)

What is the 120V supplying? A class 2 transformer? The sink may have protection built-in and therefore you do not require the GFCI.


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## pudge565 (Dec 8, 2007)

canbug said:


> What is the 120V supplying? A class 2 transformer? The sink may have protection built-in and therefore you do not require the GFCI.


The sink itself may not require GFCI protection per the manufacturer or any specific requirement of the code. However, because the receptacle is located within 6' of the inside edge of the sink the receptacle IS required to be GFCI protected. The only way to get around the GFCI requirement would be to hardwire the sink and if the manufacturer doesn't show that in the manual or they provide the unit with a cord and plug from factory then that is not an option.


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## canbug (Dec 31, 2015)

Is the receptacle accessable or is it behind a cover?


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## pudge565 (Dec 8, 2007)

canbug said:


> Is the receptacle accessable or is it behind a cover?


It doesn't matter unless they are on the 2017 NEC which makes provisions for the way the 6' is measured and states that if it has to pass through a physical barrier or doorway then GFCI isn't required. Though if it was installed prior to the 2017 being in force then it still has to adhere to the cycle it was installed under.


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## Arrow3030 (Mar 12, 2014)

I'll double down on an earlier question. Is there a transformer or is the sink line voltage?

Have you checked that the gfci isn't protecting a building wired load?


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## pudge565 (Dec 8, 2007)

Arrow3030 said:


> I'll double down on an earlier question. Is there a transformer or is the sink line voltage?
> 
> Have you checked that the gfci isn't protecting a building wired load?


The first question is irrelevant to whether or not this recepacle needs GFCI protection.

The second question is actually very important here. If that GFCI feeds other loads on the load side of it the sink may not be tripping it at all and would leave whatever is unprotected.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

I've yet to see an automatic faucet that operated at anything above 24 volts.


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## nathan.hoggatt (Jan 31, 2018)

The gfci is located inside a cabinet under the sink within 6" of the water supply line and drain.the sink is controlled by an isolation 120-24v transformer that plugs into the receptacle ie. It is not hardwired. 


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

nathan.hoggatt said:


> The gfci is located inside a cabinet under the sink within 6" of the water supply line and drain.the sink is controlled by an isolation 120-24v transformer that plugs into the receptacle ie. It is not hardwired.
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


If this GFCI drop is tailed out above a drop ceiling, you can use a 24v plate mounted hvac transformer above the ceiling and repurpose that drop down the wall into a 24v drop. That's how large commercial restrooms are normally done anyhow. Large transformer above the ceiling and tails down to all the flushers and faucets.


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## pudge565 (Dec 8, 2007)

nathan.hoggatt said:


> The gfci is located inside a cabinet under the sink within 6" of the water supply line and drain.the sink is controlled by an isolation 120-24v transformer that plugs into the receptacle ie. It is not hardwired.
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


GFCI has nothing to do with how close the receptacle is to the water line or drain line. 210.8(B)(5) also has no exception for passing through a fixed divider or doorway as does the dwelling unit section so it doesn't matter, this receptacle requires GFCI in any case.


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## Arrow3030 (Mar 12, 2014)

pudge565 said:


> Arrow3030 said:
> 
> 
> > I'll double down on an earlier question. Is there a transformer or is the sink line voltage?
> ...


That's kinda where I was heading. First of all, I agree that the gfci is required. 

I was more leading to maybe something on the load side of the gfci is causing the problems. Or, something between the cord end and the primary side of the transformer.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

I’m wondering why this is in the residential forum?


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## nathan.hoggatt (Jan 31, 2018)

eddy current said:


> I’m wondering why this is in the residential forum?


Because im new to tapatalk and didnt realize it. Oops!

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## nathan.hoggatt (Jan 31, 2018)

Arrow3030 said:


> That's kinda where I was heading. First of all, I agree that the gfci is required.
> 
> I was more leading to maybe something on the load side of the gfci is causing the problems. Or, something between the cord end and the primary side of the transformer.


Isolation transformer is the only load on the circuit.

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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

nathan.hoggatt said:


> Isolation transformer is the only load on the circuit.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


Until Mr Plumber plugs his spinner in to unclog a drain.
I see it as required because that receptacle can still be used even if that isolation transformer is plugged in. 


I believe that an exception should be that if it’s a single device and inaccessible during normal usage that it not be required to be GFCI protected if the equipment (LV sink) is listed for such use.


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## pudge565 (Dec 8, 2007)

Wirenuting said:


> Until Mr Plumber plugs his spinner in to unclog a drain.
> I see it as required because that receptacle can still be used even if that isolation transformer is plugged in.
> 
> 
> I believe that an exception should be that if it’s a single device and inaccessible during normal usage that it not be required to be GFCI protected if the equipment (LV sink) is listed for such use.


It used to be allowed like that but like everything else people abused the heck out of it so it was removed...


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

canbug said:


> Is the receptacle accessable or is it behind a cover?





pudge565 said:


> It doesn't matter unless they are on the 2017 NEC which makes provisions for the way the 6' is measured and states that if it has to pass through a physical barrier or doorway then GFCI isn't required. Though if it was installed prior to the 2017 being in force then it still has to adhere to the cycle it was installed under.


I will revisit what canbug was leading too ( I think) The OP stated that the receptacle is in a cabinet. From I see that "cabinet" is not a typical "cabinet" but rather a compartment that the utilities for the handwashing station ( sink) are located, Much like an electric Water Cooler. I ask again -
Is this "cabinet" readily accessible ? no tools needed to access the inside, or does one need to remove some screws ?
If a tool is needed than the GFCI device can not be located there.


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## pudge565 (Dec 8, 2007)

manchestersparky said:


> I will revisit what canbug was leading too ( I think) The OP stated that the receptacle is in a cabinet. From I see that "cabinet" is not a typical "cabinet" but rather a compartment that the utilities for the handwashing station ( sink) are located, Much like an electric Water Cooler. I ask again -
> Is this "cabinet" readily accessible ? no tools needed to access the inside, or does one need to remove some screws ?
> If a tool is needed than the GFCI device can not be located there.


Ok you were going with another approach. It should be noted it still requires GFCI protection it would just make that you can't place a GFCI receptacle there. You could use a dead front GFCI or breaker though.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

pudge565 said:


> It used to be allowed like that but like everything else people abused the heck out of it so it was removed...


Now your not taking about sump pump or basement refrigerators are you?:wink:


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## pudge565 (Dec 8, 2007)

Wirenuting said:


> Now your not taking about sump pump or basement refrigerators are you?:wink:


Nah couldn't be...


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## Greg Sparkovich (Sep 15, 2007)

In situations like this, I honestly care less about code and more about the potential headline:
"Electrician stoned by parents after school and manufacturer insist that they told him that he needs to put a GFCI in there because precious children are more important than the expense of replacing the sink".

Seriously: regardless of the NEC, I would not trust a judge with this decision if a kid reaches in there to plug something in and gets shocked. Their hand is going to brush up against something that is grounded.

I'm self-employed, so I would walk. I realize you can't do that so I know that doesn't help much. 

I would make the argument to the school and boss that they have a liability issue.
I say that I have a professional and moral duty to protect my customers and my boss' business.
I'd show my client this thread so that they can see how many electricians agree my assessment.
I'd ask the manufacturer to provide names of electricians in the area who have installed this unit and try to find out if any other units actually do function on a GFCI. They probably won't.

If all else failed, you could get a permit, call your inspector and ask him what he thinks before getting him out for the inspection. If I really "had" to finish this job, in the end, I'd let my inspector decide.


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