# Future of unions without PLA's



## butcher733 (Aug 4, 2012)

It is my understanding that PLA's are not required on federal jobs anymore, just advised to be mandated on projects over 25 million if it helps meet deadline and efficiency goals. With that being known it sounds to me that we are just a good political swing away from losing a major amount of the unions work.

What is the future of the IBEW without PLA's? How much of your locals work is under them?


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## HARRY305E (Jun 14, 2013)

butcher733 said:


> It is my understanding that PLA's are not required on federal jobs anymore, just advised to be mandated on projects over 25 million if it helps meet deadline and efficiency goals. With that being known it sounds to me that we are just a good political swing away from losing a major amount of the unions work.
> 
> What is the future of the IBEW without PLA's? How much of your locals work is under them?



Who changed the law?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Do you mean Project Labor Agreements or Prevailing wage?


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## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

If the unions can't survive without PLA's, then they deserve to die. 

PLA's are nothing more than legal extortion. Here, sign this agreement to use only union labor and we won't make any trouble for you. Refuse to sign an agreement? You'll be sorry. PLA's and card check are two of the most disgusting and egregious policies that the union endorses. Any one who defends those policies shouldn't be surprised that the majority of Americans no longer support the unions.


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## butcher733 (Aug 4, 2012)

HARRY305E said:


> Who changed the law?


Bush. PLA's are no longer federal law, now their just "encouraged" on projects over $25M.
http://m.whitehouse.gov/the_press_o...LaborAgreementsforFederalConstructionProjects

I'm talking about PLA'S not prevailing wage.


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## butcher733 (Aug 4, 2012)

EBFD6 said:


> If the unions can't survive without PLA's, then they deserve to die.
> 
> PLA's are nothing more than legal extortion. Here, sign this agreement to use only union labor and we won't make any trouble for you. Refuse to sign an agreement? You'll be sorry. PLA's and card check are two of the most disgusting and egregious policies that the union endorses. Any one who defends those policies shouldn't be surprised that the majority of Americans no longer support the unions.


Just opened my fortune cookie about ten minutes after reading your post. I think its for you.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

EBFD6 said:


> Any one who defends those policies shouldn't be surprised that the majority of Americans no longer support the unions.


http://www.gallup.com/poll/149279/approval-labor-unions-holds-near-low.aspx

All time low of 52% is still a majority of Americans supporting unions.

Now, I will admit, amongst the 25% of Americans who are stupid enough to believe the president was not born in this country ( 85% of which are teabaggers ) the percentage supporting unions is much lower - but these are the same people who consistently are opposed to any worker rights whatsoever.


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## HARRY305E (Jun 14, 2013)

butcher733 said:


> Bush. PLA's are no longer federal law, now their just "encouraged" on projects over $25M.
> http://m.whitehouse.gov/the_press_o...LaborAgreementsforFederalConstructionProjects
> 
> I'm talking about PLA'S not prevailing wage.


Okay, Now why is it that Obama has been president six years and has not revoked that executive order, He has the same power to do it so, so why has he done nothing?


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## HARRY305E (Jun 14, 2013)

eejack said:


> http://www.gallup.com/poll/149279/approval-labor-unions-holds-near-low.aspx
> 
> All time low of 52% is still a majority of Americans supporting unions.
> 
> Now, I will admit, amongst the 25% of Americans who are stupid enough to believe the president was not born in this country ( 85% of which are *teabaggers* ) the percentage supporting unions is much lower - but these are the same people who consistently are opposed to any worker rights whatsoever.


 Yup there you go insulting people instead of presenting a strong argument to why your side is better,,,,


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

HARRY305E said:


> Yup there you go insulting people instead of presenting a strong argument to why your side is better,,,,


No point in presenting any argument. You don't care about little things like the truth or facts or reason. You ignored the gallup poll because it disagreed with your preconceived idea of the world and reacted to teabagger, kind of proving my point.


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## Classic_Toby (Mar 18, 2014)

PLAs help, but unions are doomed until they can all be united again. How many teachers, police, firefighters use non union electrical contractors to do their home remodel? But want ibews support when there is a pay cut...

I also believe the lack of education is killing the unions especially the IBEW. We already see it with the CE/CW program. How many JIW do you know that never take upgrade training classes, or sit through Apprtc class on AC theory? If required to take a class by the state they take the easiest class they can that has little to over the EC. A COMET class does not help an EC make money on the job, and OSHA is good, but not if it's the only class you take. Or thing the EC should pay to train them. 
NECA and union EC are to blame too, with not going after work...


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## jigs-n-fixtures (Jan 31, 2013)

The things killing unions are poor training. And not honoring each other's lines. 

I watched the culinary and housekeeping unions in Las Vegas kill off several unions by never honoring any picket lines. In over twenty five years they never voted to honor anyone else's lines. When they went on strike I made a point of crossing theirs. A Scab club is not a union.


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## pete87 (Oct 22, 2012)

EBFD6 said:


> If the unions can't survive without PLA's, then they deserve to die.
> 
> PLA's are nothing more than legal extortion. Here, sign this agreement to use only union labor and we won't make any trouble for you. Refuse to sign an agreement? You'll be sorry. PLA's and card check are two of the most disgusting and egregious policies that the union endorses. Any one who defends those policies shouldn't be surprised that the majority of Americans no longer support the unions.




Who ever said that Americans are intelligent ?

Prevailing wage laws were passed to protect the people . There was a war over the treatment of labor . The good old days , Right ?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Playboy_Enterprises

Well it goes by PLA , right .



Pete


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## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

pete87 said:


> Who ever said that Americans are intelligent ?
> 
> Prevailing wage laws were passed to protect the people . There was a war over the treatment of labor . The good old days , Right ?
> 
> ...


Who said anything about prevailing wage? 

This thread is about PLA's.

Fwiw, I disagree with prevailing wage also. All it does is help the union compete by inflating wages. I work for a non-union contractor. I've negotiated a wage with my employer that we are both comfortable with. Why should they have to pay me prevailing wage on certain projects just to make things fair for the union? Screw the union! If they can't compete that's there problem. 

Sure, I like making some extra money while working pw, but let's not forget where that money comes from. Pw is used on publicly funded projects (ie., my tax dollars). Why should the public (me and you) have to pay more for the project to even the playing field for the unions?


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

EBFD6 said:


> Who said anything about prevailing wage?
> 
> This thread is about PLA's.
> 
> ...


Why should I make less money because you are willing to work for dirt wages?

Basically - that is what you just said. You will work for squat, and are proud to work for squat and everyone else should work for the same squat you want to work for, and you would be willing to work for even less because don't value your time, training or abilities.

Stop dragging the rest of us down with you.


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## pete87 (Oct 22, 2012)

EBFD6 said:


> Who said anything about prevailing wage?
> 
> This thread is about PLA's.
> 
> ...




You made my point . 

Prevailing Wage is always lower than the going rate for a good "J" man .
The reason the government passed such laws was to protect the people
from Low Wages , and to keep a pool of Qualified workers . The contractors keep the major difference when Electrical .

I've swam in both oceans . I wonder what a Good Wage / Shop is to you ?

As being the " Public " ... I do like seeing Tax Dollars going where it should .

PLA also is a call sign for Playboy . I like that better .



Pete


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

EBFD6 said:


> Who said anything about prevailing wage?
> 
> This thread is about PLA's.
> 
> ...


 How does inflating wages help the union compete? 



> I work for a non-union contractor. I've negotiated a wage with my employer that we are both comfortable with.


 I work for a union contractor, along with about 12,000 others. We've found that one-on-one wage negotiations always result in the employee getting a "take it or leave it" offer and that it's far better for us, financially, to have professionals and lawyers do the negotiating for us. Just like movie stars and professional sports stars. What's great about this method is that if an employer claims they can't afford our demands, they have to prove it. For some reason they never do. I wonder why that is?



> Why should they have to pay me prevailing wage on certain projects just to make things fair for the union?


 Because it is recognized from a legal standpoint and from a practical standpoint when it comes to spending taxpayer dollars on public works projects that competitive bidding isn't a perfect system when the contractors with the lowest paid personnel get the jobs. Typically, all contractors have to pay the same for materials which are typically specified right down to the manufacturer and model # to the methodology of installation. If wages and employee qualifications weren't also specified every job would be competing on who has the lowest payroll instead of who has the best and most well managed company. 



> Screw the union! If they can't compete that's there problem.


 Competition isn't really the big issue here, since nonunion shops bid on and win PW jobs all the time. 



> Sure, I like making some extra money while working pw, but let's not forget where that money comes from.


 So do I. In fact, I make at least that wage whether it's publically funded or not. It's the prevailing wage. Why would you call yourself an electrician and work for any less?



> Pw is used on publicly funded projects (ie., my tax dollars). Why should the public (me and you) have to pay more for the project to even the playing field for the unions?


 It evens the playing field for everybody. Not just unions. And they're my tax dollars too. And the last thing I want to see happen when a public school or a bridge or a tunnel or a runway goes in with MY tax dollars is some hillbilly contractor from Alabama importing a 100 jacklegs to live in a temporary tent city move into MY town for the duration of the project and mail their paychecks home. This is how PW became a law in NY when that exact senario happened during a construction project at the VA hospital in Northport Long Island. 

Now, you would think that a nonunion electrician would have nothing but high praise for PW laws because they almost always invariably earn more money per hour as well as the fringe benefits they're not used to getting while working on a PW project. (Despite the constant claims from so many that they make more than a union electrician per hour, which is utter BS) 

But the truth- the part they leave out- is the FACT that nonunion electricians cannot work on the project using their typical industry-killing modis-operendi: load a project up with tons of non educated non skilled "helpers" and only one or two competent electricians who invariably become "foreman" but are typically overwhelmed and constantly make mistakes and screw up requiring even MORE unskilled labor to correct. Because on a PW project EVERYONE must be paid PW unless they're enrolled in an approved apprenticeship program. And they don't swing that way. Nonunion contractors work helpers for years without ever recognizing any official "journeymanship." They'll hire anyone off the street depending on their present need and the availability or lack of skilled labor. And their "helper" to "mechanic" ratio is off the charts with the former number being as many as they can possibly have on the payroll without having to hire another higher paid quasi-layout, quasi-foreman, quasi-sub-foreman, quasi-mechanic type. 

The requirement that nonunion contractors have to actually man an electrical project with actual electricians is where they fail. Hence, EBFD6's outrage.


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## pete87 (Oct 22, 2012)

Island Guy


Well said on so many Levels .


"The requirement that nonunion contractors have to actually man an electrical project with actual electricians is where they fail. Hence, EBFD6's outrage."




EBFD6's may well be a "J" man you would like / need on a job .




Pete


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## mainejakes (Mar 28, 2014)

EBFD6 said:


> If the unions can't survive without PLA's, then they deserve to die.
> 
> PLA's are nothing more than legal extortion. Here, sign this agreement to use only union labor and we won't make any trouble for you. Refuse to sign an agreement? You'll be sorry. PLA's and card check are two of the most disgusting and egregious policies that the union endorses. Any one who defends those policies shouldn't be surprised that the majority of Americans no longer support the unions.


yeah because on the other hand we should let the owners dictate pay and screw over workers.


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## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

IslandGuy said:


> But the truth- the part they leave out- is the FACT that nonunion electricians cannot work on the project using their typical industry-killing modis-operendi: load a project up with tons of non educated non skilled "helpers" and only one or two competent electricians who invariably become "foreman" but are typically overwhelmed and constantly make mistakes and screw up requiring even MORE unskilled labor to correct. Because on a PW project EVERYONE must be paid PW unless they're enrolled in an approved apprenticeship program. And they don't swing that way. Nonunion contractors work helpers for years without ever recognizing any official "journeymanship." They'll hire anyone off the street depending on their present need and the availability or lack of skilled labor. And their "helper" to "mechanic" ratio is off the charts with the former number being as many as they can possibly have on the payroll without having to hire another higher paid quasi-layout, quasi-foreman, quasi-sub-foreman, quasi-mechanic type.
> 
> The requirement that nonunion contractors have to actually man an electrical project with actual electricians is where they fail. Hence, EBFD6's outrage.


This might be the way things are done in your area, and I agree that sucks and isn't right. 

In Massachusetts we have state wide licensing. We also require 1:1 journeyman to apprentice ratios on jobs. This is strictly enforced. I'm not saying there aren't contractors out there that get away with shady stuff, but on big jobs ratios are checked and enforced. I have personally been on jobs where the inspector showed up randomly to check licenses and ratios. The company I work for now actually doesn't typically have that many apprentices. We have approx. 70 guys on the field and only about 15 or so are apprentices.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

pete87 said:


> Island Guy
> Well said on so many Levels .
> "The requirement that nonunion contractors have to actually man an electrical project with actual electricians is where they fail. Hence, EBFD6's outrage."
> EBFD6's may well be a "J" man you would like / need on a job .
> Pete


 He may very well be Pete, I have no reason to believe otherwise. My point is that larger nonunion contractors have a very different definition of "manning up" than union contractors do.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

EBFD6 said:


> This might be the way things are done in your area, and I agree that sucks and isn't right.
> 
> In Massachusetts we have state wide licensing.


 I happen to know that there are unlicensed journeymen working all over Massachusetts.


> We also require 1:1 journeyman to apprentice ratios on jobs. This is strictly enforced. I'm not saying there aren't contractors out there that get away with shady stuff, but on big jobs ratios are checked and enforced.


 I happen to think that a 1:1 ratio is pathetic. What happens in 5 years? You've DOUBLED the number of journeymen in the field. There will not be enough positions available to employ them all. Some will leave the trade in disgust, others will not want to lose their investment of time and go off on their own and become the competition. No wonder ShokDoc has to put all the bathrooms on the same GFCI...


> I have personally been on jobs where the inspector showed up randomly to check licenses and ratios.


 I'm going to hazard a guess there's about 1 inspector for every 500 electricians in Massachusetts. I'll hazard another - there are more contractors breaking the rules than following them, it's commonplace, and nobody says or does anything about it for fear of retaliation.


> The company I work for now actually doesn't typically have that many apprentices. We have approx. 70 guys on the field and only about 15 or so are apprentices.


 Here's my point: At least with a PW law, all contractors have to compete ON A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD. Of course, if a nonunion contractor has a lot of employees not worth anywhere near whatever PW is, then that's EXACTLY the kind of contractor that PW shuts out - and good riddance to them. I don't want that kind of employer profiting from wiring up my schools and bridges. And if a nonunion contractor has to pay it's apprentices PW because they're not in an approved program - TOO BAD. They have all the economic advantage of paying lower wages and having lower standards so having to pony up on a PW job should be the least of their concerns.

While PW laws aren't the end-all be-all solution for everyone, at least there is some degree of order and fairness to the public bidding process. But for all those who pine for the end of unions and PW laws and PLAs I ask you this: If there was no IBEW and unions are outlawed... do you really think the wages and working conditions of all the nonunion electricians is going to go *UP and BETTER?*


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## Chrisibew440 (Sep 13, 2013)

EBFD6 said:


> If the unions can't survive without PLA's, then they deserve to die.
> 
> PLA's are nothing more than legal extortion. Here, sign this agreement to use only union labor and we won't make any trouble for you. Refuse to sign an agreement? You'll be sorry. PLA's and card check are two of the most disgusting and egregious policies that the union endorses. Any one who defends those policies shouldn't be surprised that the majority of Americans no longer support the unions.


It's awesome that people believe what they say and hear. Unions do good depending on if your in a red or a blue state and there's supporters all over the nation, including members. But you can keep bashing. Your the one that sounds ignorant.


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## pete87 (Oct 22, 2012)

IslandGuy said:


> He may very well be Pete, I have no reason to believe otherwise. My point is that larger nonunion contractors have a very different definition of "manning up" than union contractors do.



Most definitely agree .

There be one time I ran across a Top Notch Non Union Contractor . They were a 
EEC Contractor with major work in all directions of office / shop .

Needless to say , there job offer on a cold walk in was outstanding .
So was the equipment in the yard .




Pete


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## ampman66 (Dec 5, 2012)

HARRY305E said:


> Okay, Now why is it that Obama has been president six years and has not revoked that executive order, He has the same power to do it so, so why has he done nothing?


 Good question.


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