# how much does a HO really save?



## MAKALUA09 (Mar 29, 2009)

Wassup Guys! I'm a new booty contractor and I was just wondering about you guys' thoughts on how much a customer really saves by not going through the city to buy a permit? Is it a very unsafe practice? Just wanted some old school professional contracting thoughts. Thanks guys


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## MAKALUA09 (Mar 29, 2009)

I meant for a Service Upgrade. 100 to 200 for ex.


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## TxElectrician (May 19, 2008)

MAKALUA09 said:


> Wassup Guys! I'm a new booty contractor and I was just wondering about you guys' thoughts on how much a customer really saves by not going through the city to buy a permit? Is it a very unsafe practice? Just wanted some old school professional contracting thoughts. Thanks guys


 
My city doesn't issue permits to sell booty. I can see where it might make it safer though.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

A service upgrade in my area will result in no electrical service. The POCO requires a 'release' from the AHJ before they'll energize a new service. In order to 'release' the service to the POCO, the city needs to inspect it. In order to inspect it, they need to know about it. In order to know about it, the electrician needs to get a permit.

If the POCO finds a service that has been changed without all the paperwork and such being in order, they will (and have) cut the service off until they are satisfied the job is done by a licensed EC and permits are obtained.

If someone manages to get the new service hooked up and energized without the POCO or AHJ noticing, then there is a chance they may save a few bucks. But how much will the HO save when the house burns down, and the insurance company says "Well, you didn't file a permit for the work that caused the fire, so we're not paying."?

On the flip side, your profile says your an EC. You should know better than this. Trying to 'sneak' a new service past the POCO and AHJ jeopardizes your license. And for what? Do_ you_ benefit from saving the HO $100 or so?


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## MAKALUA09 (Mar 29, 2009)

tx 480Sparky! thats wut I was looking for. just intellegent old school perspective. I just received my license and I have not done a service upgrade with my license yet. My friend whose a hvac contractor said his electrician sometimes saves the clients money by not going thru the city and pulling the permit. I guess the risk vs. reward is just not worth it. I appreciate the insight. It just makes me think


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

MAKALUA09 said:


> Wassup Guys! I'm a new booty contractor and I was just wondering about you guys' thoughts on how much a customer really saves by not going through the city to buy a permit? Is it a very unsafe practice? Just wanted some old school professional contracting thoughts. Thanks guys


 
Hell yea its very unsafe. Homeowner might save up to $1000 and burn his house down. Doesn't sound like he saved anything, and God forbid that he hurts or kills someone in his family.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

By the way welcome to the forum.


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

TxElectrician said:


> My city doesn't issue permits to sell booty. I can see where it might make it safer though.


Haha! I was thinking the same thing! What the hell is wrong with this guy using this term? Must be a west coast thing. Very gay though!


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

steelersman said:


> Haha! I was thinking the same thing! What the hell is wrong with this guy using this term? Must be a west coast thing. Very gay though!


I heard a guy today say that same sex marriages are completely gay too. :laughing:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Permits aka unnecessary government intervention are to be avoided if at all possible.


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> I heard a guy today say that same sex marriages are completely gay too. :laughing:


Hahahaha! That's truly funny!


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

Peter D said:


> Permits aka unnecessary government intervention are to be avoided if at all possible.


And so is that! Permits. Who needs 'em?


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

A permit is another word for special government permission to perform an activity that would otherwise be illegal. Gee, electricians perform work that would normally be illegal. Weird when you think about it in that way.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> A permit is another word for special government permission to perform an activity that would otherwise be illegal. Gee, electricians perform work that would normally be illegal. Weird when you think about it in that way.


Yes, have you ever seen an inspector show up with a search warrant? I've often wondered if inspectors (who are not police and have an unauthorized power to search) could be challenged in court.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Peter D said:


> Yes, have you ever seen an inspector show up with a search warrant?


Actually, yes... sort of. They call the police and let them take care of it.


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## s.kelly (Mar 20, 2009)

Peter D said:


> Yes, have you ever seen an inspector show up with a search warrant? I've often wondered if inspectors (who are not police and have an unauthorized power to search) could be challenged in court.


I was on a job in Williamsburg VA this winter. The fire marshals there have realized they do have police power. They actualy carry a firearm. At first I thought it was one cowboy, but then 2 showed up together armed. Guess you better not block that exit in that town!

Anybody else see this out of fire marshals?


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

s.kelly said:


> I was on a job in Williamsburg VA this winter. The fire marshals there have realized they do have police power. They actualy carry a firearm. At first I thought it was one cowboy, but then 2 showed up together armed. Guess you better not block that exit in that town!
> 
> Anybody else see this out of fire marshals?


I got a traffic ticket from a forest ranger once. First time it ever really clicked that they're a police department too.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

s.kelly said:


> Anybody else see this out of fire marshals?


Yes, fire marshals in my area also have unauthorized power to search.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

The thinking man might start to believe that we live in a police state.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> The thinking man might start to believe that we live in a police state.



I haven't started to believe it...I already do.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

s.kelly said:


> I was on a job in Williamsburg VA this winter. The fire marshals there have realized they do have police power. They actualy carry a firearm. At first I thought it was one cowboy, but then 2 showed up together armed. Guess you better not block that exit in that town!
> 
> Anybody else see this out of fire marshals?


What part of m_arshal_ don't you understand?:laughing:






MDShunk said:


> A permit is another word for special government permission to perform an activity that would otherwise be illegal. Gee, electricians perform work that would normally be illegal. Weird when you think about it in that way.


Prostitution is another strange one with goofy laws. It's illegal to sell sex, but you can _give it away_.


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

480sparky said:


> It's illegal to sell sex, but you can _give it away_.


not in some parts of Nevada.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

steelersman said:


> not in some parts of Nevada.


Like I said..........


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Like I said..........


technically what you said was a blanket statement that isn't true everywhere.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

steelersman said:


> technically what you said was a blanket statement that isn't true everywhere.


There's an exception to every rule. And the exception proves the rule.


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

Ja ja ja...


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## 2towbot (Nov 19, 2008)

So here is the deal,
From what i read you are thinking about an upgrade?
100 to 200 amp service needing a permit which involves the
AHJ and the Poco.
One reason the poco needs to be involved is unless your climbing 
the pole or pulling new service conductors underground yourself 
more than likely the conductors are sized for the load at the service now.
You double the load on the entrance conductors without upsizing
hm....... whats that burning smell.

Just my thought


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

MAKALUA09 said:


> Wassup Guys! I'm a new booty contractor and I was just wondering about you guys' thoughts on how much a customer really saves by not going through the city to buy a permit? Is it a very unsafe practice? Just wanted some old school professional contracting thoughts. Thanks guys



I'll respond,then I'll read all the posts.
Contracting 'Booty' in Mass. is a crime. Punishment is big. but some times 'Booty' is worth it. NOT!:laughing:

Electrical work, a permit is worth (depending on the town) $45 to $100.
So that is what the customer saves. The EC with out proper paper work..Their cost,an entire career.

Rather silly question. For a legit EC. Besides,even with insurance,your carrier will not cover it.
Your cost is far more than an HO's savings.


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> I got a traffic ticket from a forest ranger once. First time it ever really clicked that they're a police department too.



Here,they have more jurisdiction and authority than 'Staties',They are Federal.

And some same sex couples are Lesbian. Now thats Gay!
Hey,They make the distinction not me!!!


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

480sparky said:


> What part of m_arshal_ don't you understand?:laughing:
> Prostitution is another strange one with goofy laws. It's illegal to sell sex, but you can _give it away_.


So is spitting on the subway. But throwing up is OK...


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## TheRick (Apr 13, 2008)

Peter D said:


> Permits aka unnecessary government intervention are to be avoided if at all possible.


 
PERMITS! we don't need no stinkin' PERMITS! :laughing:


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## jfwfmt (Jul 5, 2008)

In WV state fire marshalls are armed and have arrest powers. In my town guy builds a retaining wall facing sidewalk without permit and without any clue as to how to build one. City inspector tells him he must tear it down, hazard. He ignores inspector, goes to jail.

/s/ Jim WIlliams


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

TheRick said:


> PERMITS! we don't need no stinkin' PERMITS! :laughing:


Precisely. Government employees with unauthorized power to search someone's dwelling unit should be denied that access whenever possible.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

Peter D said:


> Precisely. Government employees with unauthorized power to search someone's dwelling unit should be denied that access whenever possible.


 Around here if you deny them access all they got to do is get a search warrant and the bring a policeman next time and the homeowner can't do anything but watch.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

william1978 said:


> Around here if you deny them access all they got to do is get a search warrant and the bring a policeman next time and the homeowner can't do anything but watch.


Seems a little backwards, doesn't it? :whistling2:


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

I've had inspectors show up with stop work orders,,,,,,,,,and throw everybody off the job,,,,and if you won't leave,,,he's bringing the sherriff,,,,,,,,it's always been unpermitted work when this happens,,,,,


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## Toronto Sparky (Apr 12, 2009)

I just paid $78 for a permit to relocate the feed for flat rate water tank to the panel.
Had to do it as Toronto Hydro would not remove the flat rate billing until they had inspection number.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

_



Permits aka unnecessary government intervention are to be avoided if at all possible.

Click to expand...

_ 
_*Fight the power! :thumbup:*_

_Permits are only necessary when home owners, hacks and handymen are doing the work._


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

480sparky said:


> ...
> If the POCO finds a service that has been changed without all the paperwork and such being in order, they will (and have) cut the service off until they are satisfied the job is done by a licensed EC and permits are obtained.


I guess you don't have many lawyers in your neck of the woods. It is next to IMPOSSIBLE for the utilities here to cut off service without jumping through a lot of legal hoops, including proof of adequate prior notification to the inhabitants.


> If someone manages to get the new service hooked up and energized without the POCO or AHJ noticing, then there is a chance they may save a few bucks. But how much will the HO save when the house burns down, and the insurance company says "Well, you didn't file a permit for the work that caused the fire, so we're not paying."?


THIS IS A SCARE TACTIC. 

I'd like ANYONE here to show just ONCE where an insurer has denied payment on this basis. DO you really think the insurance company sifts through the ashes, finds work that might be newer or an alteration, searches the records for permits issued, and then denies payment? 



> On the flip side, your profile says your an EC. You should know better than this. Trying to 'sneak' a new service past the POCO and AHJ jeopardizes your license. And for what? Do_ you_ benefit from saving the HO $100 or so?


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