# Questioning torque values



## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

mark35 said:


> For those that use torque wrenches/screwdrivers, do you ever think that a factory supplied torque spec is off? I'm mainly talking about circuit breakers, but it could apply to lugs, ground bars, taps (Like a Polaris) etc. Last week I terminated a solid #10 onto a DP 30a Cutler Hammer (tan handle) and the spec was 20in-lbs for #14-#10. 20in-lbs seemed light for a #10 to me. Once torqued it appears ok but solid #10 is rather stout. I don't suppose it would take much manipulating to loosen up that connection, such as would happen the next time someone is working in the panel. Not long ago I put a solid #14 onto a Siemens 15a breaker, the specs here are 25in-lbs for #14-#6! I know these #'s are derived from testing and all but such a large span of conductors sizes using the same torque value doesn't seem right. 25in-lbs w/this set screw type of termination (As found on a Siemens of this size) really deforms a #14 but on the other hand 25in-lbs on a #6 doesn't seem like it would sufficiently keep a conductor of this size in place very well. I could go on and on but you get the idea. Anyone with similar thoughts?


I think they're all too loose personally ! I'd prefer a slightly over torqued connection to a heat generating loose one any day ! Any problems I've ever seen in panels or in gear was never from an over torqued connection , but a loose connection , sticks out like a sore thumb . Torquing is important , but really not as much with the smaller stuff .


----------



## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

It totally depends on the type of terminal. Set screws, where the screw itself binds into the conductor, tend to need more torque than "saddle clamp" type terminals, where there is a spring pressure plate that stays tight with just enough pressure to slightly deform the spring shape. They are better if there is a possibility of wide thermal changes, but the saddle clamp type terminals are more expensive for the mfr. so you don't see them everywhere. If you over torque a saddle clamp terminal and flatten it out though, you will lose some of its advantages and may end up with it loosening through thermal cycling.

Even within the set crew type, there are different designs. Some have the threads cut so that they bind under pressure and help to avoid loosening under vibration, some don't. If you over torque the ones that do, you can strip them out.

It's always best to do exactly what the mfr says to do with regard to torque, you don't know all of the reasons behind it.


----------



## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

JRaef said:


> It's always best to do exactly what the mfr says to do with regard to torque, you don't know all of the reasons behind it.


Words of wisdom to those that will listen.


----------



## mark35 (Mar 24, 2009)

Just reviving an old thread of mine. I did a service recently and both the meter and panel manufacturers wanted 250in lbs for the 4/0 terminations. I got up to 210in lbs and wimped out. The meter pan's lugs have brass like bolts and aluminum "plates", the Homeline panel's lug components are completely aluminum. I feared stripping something out at the end of the day and having to deal with that kept me from going higher. 210in lbs felt pretty darn tight. Again, anyone with similar thoughts? None of my associates use torque wrenches on their terminations so I can't get any answers there.


----------



## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

mark35 said:


> Just reviving an old thread of mine. I did a service recently and both the meter and panel manufacturers wanted 250in lbs for the 4/0 terminations. I got up to 210in lbs and wimped out. The meter pan's lugs have brass like bolts and aluminum "plates", the Homeline panel's lug components are completely aluminum. I feared stripping something out at the end of the day and having to deal with that kept me from going higher. 210in lbs felt pretty darn tight. Again, anyone with similar thoughts? None of my associates use torque wrenches on their terminations so I can't get any answers there.


How confident are you that your torque wrench is properly calibrated?

If the manufacturer wants 250, I go to 250 unless something breaks. Then it becomes a pissing match between me and the supplier. Lucky for me I've never had to fight that battle.


----------



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

mark35 said:


> ...210in lbs felt pretty darn tight. Again, anyone with similar thoughts...?


 Been there. Don't remember the spec, but it was for wire-binding lugs and I'm tightening this stupid thing watching it deform the piss out of the conductor. I stopped and double-checked the manufacturers torque and my wrench before finally just called it "tight enough." I do not think a proper torque should crush the hell out of the conductor, and I've torqued enough things to be comfortable saying that.

If anything proper torques very often feel way loose, and I agree with your first post that it's definitely possible to accidentally wiggle a conductor free in a properly torqued termination.


----------



## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

One time I saw a guy take an impact drill with a hex attachment and tighten down the lugs in a big transfer switch with that. He just stuck it in there and impacted it until the drill stopped hammering 

I was just blown away. He turned 3/0 copper into a flat bus bar :blink:


----------



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

We often have to remove breakers from brand-new gear because someone gets the genius [bad] idea to primary inject them. The factory spec on a bolt will be something like 25 ft/lbs and in the meantime I'm literally hanging my body weight off a ratchet to break it free. Even better are the ones that show up stripped from the factory. Go ahead and unscrew that, then you're completely f**ked.

I'm sure they have some sort of torque limiter on the impact drivers they use to build switchgear, but they definitely fail frequently.


----------



## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

erics37 said:


> One time I saw a guy take an impact drill with a hex attachment and tighten down the lugs in a big transfer switch with that. He just stuck it in there and impacted it until the drill stopped hammering  I was just blown away. He turned 3/0 copper into a flat bus bar :blink:


I had a guy doing that about six months ago. I kind of heard about it through the grapevine but didn't actually believe it so I never asked him about it. Then I saw it happening. The guy said he'd been doing them that way forever


----------



## mwr (Dec 15, 2013)

I have only done residential so that is my frame of reference but I have never seen an electrician use a torque wrench or screwdriver. 

Do you even own a torque screwdriver?


----------



## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

Big John said:


> We often have to remove breakers from brand-new gea*r because someone gets the genius [bad] idea to primary inject them.* The factory spec on a bolt will be something like 25 ft/lbs and in the meantime I'm literally hanging my body weight off a ratchet to break it free. Even better are the ones that show up stripped from the factory. Go ahead and unscrew that, then you're completely f**ked.
> 
> I'm sure they have some sort of torque limiter on the impact drivers they use to build switchgear, but they definitely fail frequently.


NOW YOU STEPPED OVER THE LINE, that is my bread and butter.:laughing:


----------



## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

mwr said:


> I have only done residential so that is my frame of reference but I have never seen an electrician use a torque wrench or screwdriver.
> 
> Do you even own a torque screwdriver?


All our electricians have torque screw drivers, 1/4" socket drive 20-250 inch pound(I believe this is the range), 3/8" socket drive 15-120 Foot pound (once again this is a SWAG. We also have several 1/2" drives, floating around.


----------



## Kryptes (Aug 6, 2013)

Connecting 6 30amp federal 3 phase disconnect switches several years our torque driver was set to specifications, after tightening the connections I could pull the conductor out from the lug fairly easily. We reconnected using a different driver with same result. Trying a third time we over torqued them just abit and broke 5 lugs. Put in new lugs again breaking a couple. Ripped out the switches and exchanged for another brand....thankfully cost plus project.


----------



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Bad Electrician said:


> NOW YOU STEPPED OVER THE LINE, that is my bread and butter.:laughing:


 We do it, too. But I really think the risk involved in removing and transporting a lot of these breakers outweighs the risk of testing them on the bus. 

I am a huge fan of secondary injection (as long as it's not a magic-black-box tester) and low-current CT pickup tests.

Hell, we just had a job recently where we had to remove a mess of Entelligaurds and the horrible GE bus studs kept stripping. Every single job where I have had to remove enough GE breakers from those bus studs, sooner or later I have had those studs strip. 

And then what, you tell the customer that their brand-new gear is now damaged and unsuitable for use because they insisted on having the breakers removed and primary tested? What a terrible situation.


----------



## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

ponyboy said:


> I had a guy doing that about six months ago. I kind of heard about it through the grapevine but didn't actually believe it so I never asked him about it. Then I saw it happening. The guy said he'd been doing them that way forever


Our company does PM's for our trusting customers, some every couple years. This involves opening switchgear and retorqueing all terminations with impact drivers. The stronger the driver the better. They do not discriminate between copper and aluminum conductors, just drive it till it makes all kind of noise.

We are considered a reputable company in this area. I've got hours worth of stories.


----------



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

CFL said:


> ...This involves opening switchgear and retorqueing all terminations with impact drivers....


 Jesus.

Ever have any identifiable failures from this?


----------



## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

Big John said:


> Jesus.
> 
> Ever have any identifiable failures from this?


They try their best to keep me away from their jobs. I don't get to see any IR scan results. They get annoyed when I pry. 

I have seen what the wire looked like on one job after they were done. The aluminum wire was so deformed, the top strands were mostly broken. The building was only a few years old and I think this was the first PM. Next year's IR scan should be interesting.


----------



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

CFL said:


> ...Next year's IR scan should be interesting.


 I was gonna ask....

For some perspective, our rule is never retorque a cable crush connection. Bolted connections, we'll retorque.


----------



## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

Big John said:


> I was gonna ask....
> 
> For some perspective, our rule is never retorque a cable crush connection. Bolted connections, we'll retorque.


That is the rule I follow as well. Makes it awkward when my boss is paying me to do the opposite.

We have a job coming up to replace compression connectors on 14 (i think) paralleled sets of feeders. One connector was hot in IR scan. Am I correct that we need to replace the belleville washers when doing this?

The last time I had a hard enough time to get them to let me wire brush the 30 year old aluminum wire before putting on new connectors.


----------



## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

Big John said:


> We do it, too. But I really think the risk involved in removing and transporting a lot of these breakers outweighs the risk of testing them on the bus.
> 
> I am a huge fan of secondary injection (as long as it's not a magic-black-box tester) and low-current CT pickup tests.
> 
> .


We primary test them in the MDP if possible.


----------



## mark35 (Mar 24, 2009)

Glad to see others with similar concerns.

Hardworkingstiff, I never had this wrench in question calibrated so it could very well be reading high or low, but I feel it will at least get me closer to a particular torque than just fee handing it. I should look at getting it calibrated though. 

I dig what you're saying about torquing it to spec and if something breaks get the manufacturer and/or supplier involved. That would be cool and interesting to experiment on something that was not currently in service but in my case, upgrading a residential service, it would have totally sucked stripping out a lug, I just didn't want to deal with that. 

It's funny, we turn to these specs that are supposedly researched and tested by engineers, but if an electrician is conscious of what their doing, you'd have to question some of these numbers. Those of us that invest money into such tools want to do right, but sometimes what happens, we say forget the spec and just torque it by feel, just like 95% (I just made that up) of the guys out there that don't torque anything and laugh at us for whipping out a $135 screwdriver.

Normally I'll side with engineers specs in general, like in the automotive world. You'll go on car forums and guys will argue something like oil weight. My f150, for example, is suppose to have 5w-20 in the engine, but you'll have guys saying it's too thin and so forth. Some will agree to that theory then the other side will say something like, "Yeah, you know more that the Ford engineers…"

I just did the top end on my dirtbike and I went by the numbers in the manual, I felt comfortable and confident in using those specs. However, in the trade, many times I cannot say the same.


----------



## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

mark35 said:


> G
> It's funny, we turn to these specs that are supposedly researched and tested by engineers, but if an electrician is conscious of what their doing, you'd have to question some of these numbers. Those of us that invest money into such tools want to do right, but sometimes what happens, we say forget the spec and just torque it by feel, *just like 95% *(I just made that up) of the guys out there that don't torque anything and laugh at us for whipping out a $135 screwdriver.
> .


If you are going to guess at least be accurate 99.1% :laughing:


----------



## Awg-Dawg (Jan 23, 2007)

Big John said:


> We often have to remove breakers from brand-new gear because someone gets the genius [bad] idea to primary inject them.


 Ive never heard that term before (primary inject)

What does that mean?


----------



## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

My rule of thumb for tightening lugs without a torque wrench is simple- tight is tight and broke is broke.


----------



## mark35 (Mar 24, 2009)

Bad Electrician said:


> If you are going to guess at least be accurate 99.1% :laughing:


That's funny, I actually was going to say 99% :laughing:



Awg-Dawg said:


> Ive never heard that term before (primary inject)
> 
> What does that mean?


Great question, not sure what that means either.


----------



## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

ponyboy said:


> My rule of thumb for tightening lugs without a torque wrench is simple- tight is tight and broke is broke.


Snug is tight, tight is generally over torqued.


----------



## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

Awg-Dawg said:


> Ive never heard that term before (primary inject)
> 
> What does that mean?


Primary injection is testing a circuit breaker at it rated current for trip operation a Long time test is generally performed at 300% so a 1000 mp CB would be tested at 3000 amps for long time operation, Instantaneous is done at pickup. You apply current until the CB trips. A molded case CB set on 10 would trip at or around 10,000 amps. 

Our largest primary injection test set can generate 90,000 amps (WITH PERFECT CONDITIONS).we had 8 different test sets ranging from 2000 amps max to the 90,000 max.


There is also a Secondary injection test were HOPEFULLY the manufacture gets into the CT secondaries.


----------



## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

Bad Electrician said:


> Snug is tight, tight is generally over torqued.


Snug and tight are synonyms.


----------



## Awg-Dawg (Jan 23, 2007)

Bad Electrician said:


> Primary injection is testing a circuit breaker at it rated current for trip operation a Long time test is generally performed at 300% so a 1000 mp CB would be tested at 3000 amps for long time operation, Instantaneous is done at pickup. You apply current until the CB trips. A molded case CB set on 10 would trip at or around 10,000 amps.
> 
> Our largest primary injection test set can generate 90,000 amps (WITH PERFECT CONDITIONS).we had 8 different test sets ranging from 2000 amps max to the 90,000 max.
> 
> ...


 
I see breakers where I work at that have stickers on them where they have been tested.(Ive only seen small amperage, single pole)

I remember them having 5.8 seconds and the like.

Is that primary inject they were testing ?


----------



## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

ponyboy said:


> Snug and tight are synonyms.


Not in the electrical trade. Tight to the average electrician means an Allen wrench with a 12" of 1/2" EMT for leverage

I will say for better than 100 years over tightening was the norm and we seemed to have survived.


----------



## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

Awg-Dawg said:


> I see breakers where I work at that have stickers on them where they have been tested.(Ive only seen small amperage, single pole)
> 
> I remember them having 5.8 seconds and the like.
> 
> Is that primary inject they were testing ?


I would think so, but it is unusual to test small molded case less than 100 amps. 5.8 seconds sounds like a 600% test but it would depend on the CB.


----------



## Awg-Dawg (Jan 23, 2007)

Bad Electrician said:


> I would think so, but it is unusual to test small molded case less than 100 amps. 5.8 seconds sounds like a 600% test but it would depend on the CB.


 I could tell it was tested many years ago.

It is at a hospital also.

I was guessing on the time on the breaker.

I will check tomorrow and see what is actually on them.


----------



## Awg-Dawg (Jan 23, 2007)

Here's the breaker, it's a Westinghouse.


----------



## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

CFL said:


> Our company does PM's for our trusting customers, some every couple years. This involves opening switchgear and retorqueing all terminations with impact drivers. The stronger the driver the better. They do not discriminate between copper and aluminum conductors, just drive it till it makes all kind of noise.
> 
> We are considered a reputable company in this area. I've got hours worth of stories.


*EPRI Electrical Connectors Application Guidelines*
3.3.3 Inspection of Bolted Electrical Connectors
Upon assembly, utility personnel typically check electrical connections by hand or with a wrench to ensure that bolts are not loose. The applied torque is not checked after assembly. Re-torquing the joint after assembly is not an appropriate method to confirm installation torque since repeated tightening could actually damage the connector and eventually lead to failure.

3.3.4 Maintenance of Bolted Electrical Connectors
Bolted connections do not require periodic re-tightening. As described above, once a connector is installed with the proper torque, repeated tightening could actually damage the connector and eventually lead to failure. Hardware from disassembled connections can be reused if determined to be in good condition. However, some nuclear power plants have procedural restrictions on reuse of Belleville washers due to concerns with possible fatigue damage.


----------



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Awg-Dawg said:


> Here's the breaker, it's a Westinghouse...


If it's a 20A breaker, maybe the 60.9A is the test current? It could be a 300% test, where they put in 3x the rating of the breaker, and record when it trips.

_Bad Electrician _gave a good run down on primary testing. It's not by itself a bad idea. It's the only way to reproduce with 100% fidelity the real-world tripping conditions the breaker will experience. But it often requires removing the breakers from the gear, and on large frame bolt-in breakers I am basically dead-set against this idea unless it's absolutely necessary. I sincerely believe the risk of damage is much greater than the value of primary testing.


----------



## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

Awg-Dawg said:


> Here's the breaker, it's a Westinghouse.
> 
> View attachment 37236


60.*9 *amps very tight tolerance. 


As Big John noted looks like a 300% test with trip occurring in 8.38 seconds


----------



## 2dogs (Feb 7, 2014)

http://m.ecmweb.com/contractor/do-you-have-calibrated-arm here is a good article on this.


----------



## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

Big John said:


> If it's a 20A breaker, maybe the 60.9A is the test current? It could be a 300% test, where they put in 3x the rating of the breaker, and record when it trips.
> 
> _Bad Electrician _gave a good run down on primary testing. It's not by itself a bad idea. It's the only way to reproduce with 100% fidelity the real-world tripping conditions the breaker will experience. But it often requires removing the breakers from the gear, and on large frame bolt-in breakers I am basically dead-set against this idea unless it's absolutely necessary. I sincerely believe the risk of damage is much greater than the value of primary testing.


How common is it to test a 20 amp breaker? Hospitals mainly?


----------



## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

Zog said:


> *EPRI Electrical Connectors Application Guidelines*
> 3.3.3 Inspection of Bolted Electrical Connectors
> Upon assembly, utility personnel typically check electrical connections by hand or with a wrench to ensure that bolts are not loose. The applied torque is not checked after assembly. Re-torquing the joint after assembly is not an appropriate method to confirm installation torque since repeated tightening could actually damage the connector and eventually lead to failure.
> 
> ...


I think we'll reuse all the hardware. This building is far from being a nuclear power plant. Thank you for the information. I read through a bunch of posts on this subject, many of them yours, and that is where I got the idea about the washers. I've never noticed any damage to washers in the past but I wasn't exactly looking either.


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

2dogs said:


> http://m.ecmweb.com/contractor/do-you-have-calibrated-arm here is a good article on this.


Interesting study dogs....

One minor point might be that any torque instrument relies on clean lightly oiled unused factory threads .

I don't believe this is always the case with some stock that sat around for years

~CS~


----------



## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

CFL said:


> How common is it to test a 20 amp breaker? Hospitals mainly?


We test 1000's of circuit breakers annually of 100 jobs one might ask for 20 amp CB's. Most specifications say 100 amps and larger.


----------



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

CFL said:


> How common is it to test a 20 amp breaker? Hospitals mainly?


 For us, not at all common. Even on commissions, usually they'll stop at feeder breakers so we almost never test small molded case breakers.

If there's any doubt, throw them away and buy new ones.


----------



## mark35 (Mar 24, 2009)

Great discussion. Bad Electrician and Big John, do you guys work for electrical contractors that just happen to do this specialized testing or do you work for companies that just specialize in such testing?


----------



## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

mark35 said:


> Great discussion. Bad Electrician and Big John, do you guys work for electrical contractors that just happen to do this specialized testing or do you work for companies that just specialize in such testing?


My firm sort of has two divisions, almost all of our work is sort of specialized, government, hospitals and data centers. We do anything out of the ordinary and a lot of the ordinary as well. 

Power quality, grounding, transformer issues, transfer switch issues, we are big with bolted pressure switch repairs, ground fault troubling shooting and repairs, things that sometimes leave electricians spending a lot of time trying to resolve they call us. I am not all that knowledgeable I just have a lot of years doing this OJT.


----------



## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

Bad Electrician said:


> We test 1000's of circuit breakers annually of 100 jobs one might ask for 20 amp CB's. Most specifications say 100 amps and larger.


I would assume they come from the factory already tested, right? So like big john said, throw them away and replace. 

I wish our company would get into some type of testing. They used to be into thermography but most of that is sub'd out too. None of the thermo. companies that we work with have an electrical background, so no testing is involved when a trouble spot is found. If it's hot, tighten it. If you can't tighten it anymore, replace something, then wait till next ir scan to see if you fixed it.

If a breaker trips, try to reset it with your eyes closed and looking away. If it trips again, try it again. If it trips again, tighten something. If it trips again, replace it.

Sorry, I realize most of my posts are me bitching about our company. I'm jealous of you guys out there doing work right.


----------



## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

CFL said:


> I would assume they come from the factory already tested, right? So like big john said, throw them away and replace.
> 
> I wish our company would get into some type of testing. They used to be into thermography but most of that is sub'd out too. None of the thermo. companies that we work with have an electrical background, so no testing is involved when a trouble spot is found. If it's hot, tighten it. If you can't tighten it anymore, replace something, then wait till next ir scan to see if you fixed it.
> 
> ...


Where are you located?


----------



## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

Bad Electrician said:


> My firm sort of has two divisions, almost all of our work is sort of specialized, government, hospitals and data centers. We do anything out of the ordinary and a lot of the ordinary as well.
> 
> Power quality, grounding, transformer issues, transfer switch issues, we are big with bolted pressure switch repairs, ground fault troubling shooting and repairs, things that sometimes leave electricians spending a lot of time trying to resolve they call us. I am not all that knowledgeable I just have a lot of years doing this OJT.


What is your hourly rate? Dumb question maybe, but is it much higher than an average electrical service rate?


----------



## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

Bad Electrician said:


> Where are you located?


Florida.


----------



## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

CFL said:


> Florida.


Where in Fla? I will be in Palm Bay July 5th for a week.


----------



## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

Bad Electrician said:


> Where in Fla? I will be in Palm Bay July 5th for a week.


pm'd you


----------



## mark35 (Mar 24, 2009)

Bad Electrician said:


> My firm sort of has two divisions, almost all of our work is sort of specialized, government, hospitals and data centers. We do anything out of the ordinary and a lot of the ordinary as well.
> 
> Power quality, grounding, transformer issues, transfer switch issues, we are big with bolted pressure switch repairs, ground fault troubling shooting and repairs, things that sometimes leave electricians spending a lot of time trying to resolve they call us. I am not all that knowledgeable I just have a lot of years doing this OJT.



Sounds cool man. If one were interested in getting into such work I'd gather such a company would hire an electrician with basic commercial skills right? I'd have to assume most of these tests take place after hours though, so overnights are commonplace? A lot of traveling as well?


----------



## mark35 (Mar 24, 2009)

CFL said:


> Florida.


CFL, are you in Palm Bay? I lived in Melbourne Beach, on and off '96-'07.


----------



## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

CFL said:


> What is your hourly rate? Dumb question maybe, but is it much higher than an average electrical service rate?


All our employees are union, most make over scale and get above union benefits, plus bonus at the end of the year.


----------



## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

mark35 said:


> Sounds cool man. If one were interested in getting into such work I'd gather such a company would hire an electrician with basic commercial skills right? I'd have to assume most of these tests take place after hours though, so overnights are commonplace? A lot of traveling as well?


Search out a NETA firm in your area, most of the men were electricians and got OJT plus some classes.

Lots of off hours work.


----------



## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

CFL said:


> I would assume they come from the factory already tested, right?


Nope. They pull a few out for "Batch testing"



CFL said:


> I wish our company would get into some type of testing. They used to be into thermography but most of that is sub'd out too. None of the thermo. companies that we work with have an electrical background, so no testing is involved when a trouble spot is found.


These guys do IR scanning and NETA testing of breakers, transformers, etc...have an old buddy that has worked there for years. 

http://www.cbs-florida.com/


----------



## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

Somebody wanted to know if we owned torque wrenches?


----------



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

:laughing: I wanna see the lug that requires 300 foot-pounds of torque.


----------



## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

Them big diesels.


----------

