# What the...



## Jupe Blue (Aug 18, 2008)

Service call to troubleshoot receptacles that aren't working showed a classic open neutral when taking voltage readings. Asked the HO where his electrical panel was located.

He led me all over the house to point out 2 main panels (garage), 3 sub-panels (basement, exterior, & storage room). It seems that the previous owner had planned to separate the house into 4 individual apartments.

One of the main panels fed the ext. sub-panel which fed the trouble circuit in question. When I opened up the sub-panel, this is what I saw. All the single pole breakers feed 120v circuits. Notice the lack of wire on the neutral bar.

The second picture is the main panel. The installer used Romex to jumper from the main panel to the sub but did not take neutrals to the sub. He used the black wire for one circuit and the white for a second. There was a permit sticker on the sub-panel, but no signature that it ever had an inspection.

The original homerun for the bad circuit is part of a MWBC and it's being re-fed by two circuits on the same phase from the sub. Still haven't found the bad neutral. The second circuit on the MWBC seems to be working fine. Due to the extensive remodeling, I'm worried that I won't be able to find the j-box where these circuit split off. Will be back on Monday to look some more.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Jupe Blue said:


> Service call to troubleshoot receptacles that aren't working showed a classic open neutral when taking voltage readings. Asked the HO where his electrical panel was located.
> 
> He led me all over the house to point out 2 main panels (garage), 3 sub-panels (basement, exterior, & storage room). It seems that the previous owner had planned to separate the house into 4 individual apartments.
> 
> ...



That neutral bar is not even bonded to the panel:blink:

That is just wonerfull..:laughing:


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

So, the first photo is a sub panel and all they did was bring the hots out to the sub and left all the neutrals for those circuits in the main? 

Why the hell would anyone do that? What the hell is on the other end of all those white wires connected to breakers? Does the main have a bunch of pieces of Romex coming in where only the neutral is landed? I'm so confused! :confused1: :huh: :blink:

-John


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## Jupe Blue (Aug 18, 2008)

Big John said:


> So, the first photo is a sub panel and all they did was bring the hots out to the sub and left all the neutrals for those circuits in the main?
> *
> YES!*
> 
> ...


 

I'm confused too.


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## Jupe Blue (Aug 18, 2008)

I just checked the county's online permit website. It shows that this service initially failed inspection in Oct. 2010. Was approved and passed final inspection 6 days later. 

How should I break it to the customer that it's a substandard installation and should be corrected?

Since they never completed the remodel, the quickest fix would be to reconnect all the circuits to the spare breakers in the main panel. I guess I would leave the Romex jumpers safed off in place. And then correct what ever violations are left in the subpanel.

I suspect the panel was never re-inspected. Has anyone ever called the AHJ for a re-inspection when the original permit was approved for final even when it's clear that it wasn't properly inspected? What was the result?


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> Notice the lack of wire on the neutral bar.


Aren't *both* of those neutral bars? It looks like they are tied together behind the bus in that insulated thin bar.

I can't tell from the pic what kind of feeder they used. If it's 4 wire, just remove the jumper, put the neutrals on the right side and the grounds on the left (and jumper/bond the can).


Wait...what? I looked again and see what you are talking about. WTF?


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## DCAC (Feb 11, 2011)

I got a question on the 1st pic. Lookes like the feed is from the top, to main breaker & the Neutral is on the right. If it is not bonded to the box, or bonded to the bar on the left. Then it seems that there is no real grounding or bonding method. There getting their neutrals to work through all the ground wires. If thats the case, there will never be a true ground, nor neutral. 
Is this the main dissconnect? Can you bond those to bars together? whats power from phase to neutral, & phase to ground at this panel?


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## Jupe Blue (Aug 18, 2008)

DCAC said:


> I got a question on the 1st pic. Lookes like the feed is from the top, to main breaker & the Neutral is on the right. If it is not bonded to the box, or bonded to the bar on the left. Then it seems that there is no real grounding or bonding method. There getting their neutrals to work through all the ground wires. If thats the case, there will never be a true ground, nor neutral.
> Is this the main dissconnect? Can you bond those to bars together? whats power from phase to neutral, & phase to ground at this panel?


Sub-panel is a 4 wire feed from main panel. Conductors are landed on the main lugs of the 200a breaker, right side bar has the neutral, ground wire is landed on the right. 240 phase-phase, 120v each phase to either neutral/ground bar (fairly certain they are bonded, but didn't actually look closely yesterday).


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

Jupe Blue said:


> Sub-panel is a 4 wire feed from main panel. Conductors are landed on the main lugs of the 200a breaker, right side bar has the neutral, ground wire is landed on the right. 240 phase-phase, 120v each phase to either neutral/ground bar ).


 
So...in order to free up space in the main panel, they installed a sub (pictured) and use 2 wire NM to backfeed 2 circuits per cable?




> fairly certain they are bonded, but didn't actually look closely yesterday


You can see the bond strap isn't tied to the bus.


It looks like you need to get four more circuits back to the main panel.


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## Jupe Blue (Aug 18, 2008)

I don't think the HO is interested in fixing the issues with the subpanel. He just wants the receptacles to work. I still have to find the open neutral in the MWBC.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Electrical work is so easy, anyone can do it!


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

I would love to bring my gaussmeter there and see what readings I would get. The emf's must be astronomical in that place.


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

backstay said:


> Electrical work is so easy, anyone can do it!


 Very True!! Just ask your H D associate!:laughing:


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## Jupe Blue (Aug 18, 2008)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I would love to bring my gaussmeter there and see what readings I would get. The emf's must be astronomical in that place.


Dennis, could you write more about how you would measure EMF with a gaussmeter? I don't even know how and where to measure and what it would really mean. Thanks.


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

220/221 said:


> wait...what? I looked again and see what you are talking about. Wtf?


haha!!

I think the homeowner needs a do over!!


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## Jmohl (Apr 26, 2011)

Quick bit of advice, DON'T get too critical of the install to th HO, may turn out that he's the one that did it..... Ranting about the hack to the hack that installed it may not make you too many friends.


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

I also see what appears to be some #12 on 30 0r 40 amp breakers (the green handled ones). 

In this case, if the HO won't allow the repairs to FULLY correct this, I would run, not walk, away. 

Any attempt to get the receptacles working will leave you open to serious liability *when,* _*not if,*_ the fire starts or someone gets killed. 



Jupe Blue said:


> .....the quickest fix would be to reconnect all the circuits to the spare breakers in the main panel. _*I guess I would leave the Romex jumpers safed off in place.*_ And then correct what ever violations are left in the subpanel.


Very bad idea. Demo them to the point they can never be reconnected. 

Better yet, as I have said, run away from this one, turn it in to the AHJ and let them have their power shut off before someone gets killed.


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## zwodubber (Feb 24, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I would love to bring my gaussmeter there and see what readings I would get. The emf's must be astronomical in that place.


I'll meet you there with my PQ meter, i'd love to see some of the harmonics and the EN 50160


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

zwodubber said:


> I'll meet you there with my PQ meter, i'd love to see some of the harmonics and the EN 50160


 I'd like to see pictures of triplens from a single phase circuit.


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## zwodubber (Feb 24, 2011)

bobelectric said:


> I'd like to see pictures of triplens from a single phase circuit.


If it wasn't all the way across the country I'd be there just to record the results


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## DCAC (Feb 11, 2011)

Run a new circuit from main panel. Put in writting that you have no responsability towards existing wriring, & saggest that HO has the additional panels removed.


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## Jsmit319 (Sep 23, 2010)

I have to agree with mxslick....Maybe the HO would let you could call in the electrical inspector for a consultation visit since this is clearly a life/safety issue rather than just a code issue. If they won't let you fix this properly, Gracefully bow-out and let them find someone else.


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## hornetd (Oct 30, 2014)

backstay said:


> Electrical work is so easy, anyone can do it!


Of course they can! "It's all just color to color" quoting the landlord of a patient our station's ambulance transported to the hospital as an electric shock patient. The landlord kept asking when we of the engine crew were leaving and the captain kept telling him we were waiting on permission from the dispatcher to leave the scene. We left when the Fire Investigators, Chief of Electrical Inspection, and 2 of his inspectors got there. They didn't need a search warrant for Clear and Present Danger since the fire service maintained control of the scene. I'm proud to say that it was I who convinced the Captain to call out the cavalry. The Chief of Electrical Inspection took a look around the apartment house's electrical room and ordered the building evacuated. We spent the rest of the day and well into the evening escorting people to get medicine, the next day's clothes, and other essentials out of their now dark apartments. The Chief Inspector had ordered the POCO to disconnect all power from the building. 

But wait there's more! The next winter we were back there because the landlord's brother had worked on the heating system. The original 911 call was for multiple people in one unit suddenly and inexplicably ill. I arrived on the ambulance not knowing that the dispatchers knew that this involved 4 patients in one unit. They had decided that 1 ambulance should go and check it out first. Would have been nice to have known that. There were people sitting out in the freekin snow sick as dogs. I called for an EMS task force of 5 ambulances, EMS duty officer, and 2 engines for manpower and gas meters. Ambulances don't carry CO nor combustible gas meters here. The first arriving engine officer had dispatch fill out the full assignment for the building as if it had a working fire. That is called filling the box. That brought out 3 more engine companies, 2 truck companies, a heavy rescue squad, an additional medic unit and ambulance over what was due to respond as the EMS task force that I had called for. The District Fire Chief who took command ended up calling two more EMS task forces. Keeping in mind that I was just one Firefighter / Emergency Medical Attendant Volunteer and that we made 5 trips to the hospital with patients who were too sick to stand and you know why I cannot actually tell you how many people were sick enough to be transported by ambulance. All 16 of the ambulances from the 3 EMS task forces and the ambulance which responded on the box assignment ended up doing multiple transports. The Medic Unit's Paramedics and the EMS Duty Officer did the triage which is the sorting of patients by the severity of their condition. The EMS Duty Officer called out 2 transit buses and sent the walking patients to 2 more distant hospitals to be evaluated. A lot of patients received serious drugs because of the degree of poisoning. The Charge Nurses at both of the more distant hospitals were surprised that some of the bus transported patients were still walking and talking. They told us that their blood gases came back frighteningly high with CO. When I last saw the Landlord and his Brother they were being loaded into the back of a patrol car with the matching bracelets already in place. 

So you see we just worry too much. After all it's just color to color. Why would they call in an expensive electrician or pipe fitters when they new how to do it themselves?

-- 
Tom Horne


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