# Do you use crimp sleeves?



## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Do you use crimp sleeves on your grounds? Buchannans or Ideals? What crimp tool do you use? The copper Buchannan's are supposed to be crimped with the C-24 "Press Sure" tool, and the yellow chromated steel Ideal's are supposed to be crimped with the die in their line pliers. That's what I'm learning, anyhow. I like to use the Buchannan press tool for all of them. 
What do you like for grounds?


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

I've never used them. The companies I've worked for didn't buy them. I have always hated them with a passion though, because when I came upon them, the installer would cut all the grounds (except the one he used as a tail) to about 1 1/2" to 2" long  . I know you don't do that yourself, but it's left a bad taste in my mouth.

I would just as soon use a regular wirenut. One less thing in my pouch.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

I know that the crimp sleeves are hated by most people that have to take them off. I have a method to take them off, which involves nipping them top to bottom with a pair of dikes. Greenies just don't work very well in gang boxes.


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

True! I've never put them on, only removed them-and thats not all that bad-its just respliceing the super-short wires. Do you find them faster then a standard wirenut?


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Marc, you must have seen my reply over at Mike Holt's.

On the rare occasion that I need to remove a ground crimp I do exactly as you describe. But really, how often do you really need to remove a crimp and undo a splice? More often then not you are adding a wire. Then I just add another crimp.

Like I said, the folks crying about crimps are crying about an unworkmanlike installation, not the crimps themselves. They just use the crimp as a scapegoat. 
It is not the crimp's fault that the installer only left 2" of tail out of the crimp. Or that all the other grounds in the box are only 1" beyond the box edge. 
I see this just as much with greenies as I do with crimps.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

JohnJ0906 said:


> Do you find them faster then a standard wirenut?


Faster? I don't know. It depends on what you get used to, I guess. I'd say that I can put on a crimp about as fast as you can twist on a wire nut, so it's about a wash in that regard. Cost wise, there's no race. The new rubberized wire nuts that I'm using now retail to the customer for about 28 cents, and the crimp sleeves are about 3 cents.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

SPEEDY:

As I have said residential is not my forte, when I did residential we used wirenuts for everything.

As for removing them DIKES as Marc said, I have seen where the installer cut the conductors too short on many occasions, but that bad workmanship not a comment on the barrel.

I don't like them but I do believe it is an old electrician thing. I was going to do a test with them this week.


Utilizing number 12 AWG

Proper connection barrel 
Proper connection wirenut
Improper connection barrel
Improper connection wirenut.

Run 200 amps threw the connections and IR them.

Not sure I will prove anything but I like doing fun things.

If nothing happens I'll hit them with 500 amps then 1,000, 2,000 ECT sooner or later something will give.


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

Speedy, I cede your point. I guess it is unreasonable to blame the crimp, but I have literally NEVER come upon one that the installer left a reasonable amount of wire. Is it a workmanship issue? Sure. I'll still be unreasonable, though:whistling2: . Hell, I don't even expect 6"-thats a relatively new rule, but is 3-4" too much to ask for?


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

brian john said:


> Run 200 amps threw the connections and IR them.
> 
> Not sure I will prove anything but I like doing fun things.
> 
> If nothing happens I'll hit them with 5000 amps then 1,000, 2,000 ECT sooner or later something will give.


THAT WOULD BE AWESOME!!!

I'd like to see some copper and steel sleeves used, with the associated tooling for each. I'd be willing to FedEx you the materials and tooling, if you needed.


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

I found the 6" free conductor rule in the '96 NEC-I thought it was newer than that. When was that rule introduced? (Brian, thats your cue)


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

I use the Greenie if it's a single gang box, otherwise I splice all ground wires together and leave the appropriate amount of leads for the devices I'll be connecting to.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Instructions from the two sizes of copper Buchannan crimp sleeves:










Note that it does say to "insulate" the completed splice, and to "cut flush" the conductors at the end of the connector. :whistling2:


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

WOW. I never noticed the "Alternate tools" listing on for those. Would you look at that.....regular old linesman's with a crimper.....LEGAL TO USE FOR BUCHANAN's.

I'll have to dig out a pack of new Ideal crimps. I had an issue with someone a few years ago and had to prove no special crimper was required. This is how I know for fact you can use a lineman's pliers (with a built in crimper).


I have to say with all humility. I like to think I make a darn good splice.

Here is my procedure:

I bring all the conductors beyond the face of the box at least the width of my hand, plus the length of my thumb. Picture a hitchhiker's hand laid sideways.
That is all the conductors, but...I leave all the grounds longer. 
I then twist the grounds at about the point of the cut wires; cut off all but the number of devices in the box; crimp them; then fold the splice all the way to the back of the box leaving the tail(s) out. 
I then cut the ground tail the same length as all the others. 
I then loop the conductors and fold them all in.
This leaves the grounds as long as all the others for future re-do's and/or box changes, does NOT take any longer than any other way I have tried, and is very clean since only the grounds needed are coming out of the box.
This also makes for a cleaner and easier device make up later since all the wires are the same.

I had a boss who used to do it this way BUT he never folded the ground splice back before cutting the device tail. This kept the double twisted ground out with the device and was pain to work with.


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## dcc (Mar 19, 2007)

Loacal code here in Ca. requires that you use barrel crimps with a "proper" crimping tool. Wire nuts a not allowed.

As mentioned before code addresses the length of of the twist of the ground wire, unfortunately not enough "electricians" have had to go back and rework their own make ups otherwise this wouldn't be happening.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Speedy Petey said:


> I bring all the conductors beyond the face of the box at least the width of my hand, plus the length of my thumb. Picture a hitchhiker's hand laid sideways.


That's exactly the way I was taught and I still do it like that.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

I like to use them for all my motor connections, but only with the 4 way crimper.
Scott


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

> Loacal code here in Ca. requires that you use barrel crimps with a "proper" crimping tool. Wire nuts a not allowed.


The manufacture has been lobbying somebody....




> I like to use them for all my motor connections, but only with the 4 way crimper.
> Scott


REALLY?


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

sbrn33 said:


> I like to use them for all my motor connections, but only with the 4 way crimper.
> Scott


I can see where that might be of some benefit, because the pecker-head on a motor is so small (cubic inch wise). I've tended to crimp ring terminals on the motor leads and the power leads, and couple them with #10 x 3/8 bolts and nuts. For big motors, I like to use the preinsulated pedestal lugs (Polaris, NSI, etc.)


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## Mountain Electrician (Jan 22, 2007)

Ideal In-Sure push in connector. This one is the model 90, takes 8 #20 to #12s. Very nice for multi gang boxes, fold back flat and doesnt take up much room. I've used these for one job so far, and am real happy with them.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Mountain Electrician said:


> Ideal In-Sure push in connector..


I've got a baggie of them on the truck that a salesman gave me. They're Ideal's version of the Wago. The really long one's put me in mind of a harmonica.


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## dcc (Mar 19, 2007)

brian john said:


> The manufacture has been lobbying somebody....


Hey dude...this is California, like what do you expect.


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## Mountain Electrician (Jan 22, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> I've got a baggie of them on the truck that a salesman gave me. They're Ideal's version of the Wago. The really long one's put me in mind of a harmonica.


LOL..like I said, I like the way they take up less room, but I'm curious as too how they will stand up under load. Its nice that they are clear so you can see how far the wire went in, but how much different is this than backstabbing a recep?


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Mountain Electrician said:


> ... but how much different is this than backstabbing a recep?


People say the spur is a little different. I dunno. I don't really trust them, but I use them on certain occasions for certain things (recessed cans, old wires too short, etc.).


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## itsunclebill (Jan 16, 2007)

A lot of my work involves removing an existing box and installing a wider one. This pretty much means I hate crimps. Not only do too many folks cut wires short but the wrong tool gets used and I find everything from loose wires to a crimp almost impossible to remove without damaging the wire.

I use greens in single gang boxes and have gone to the push-in type for anything else. I have tested the push-ins a bit myself, including giving them a bunch of fault current shots and checking the temperature of the splices while under heavy load. I'm happy enough with them I use them in place of wire nuts in many instances, especially 2 gang or wider boxes and in J-boxes. I've kind of taken the attitude that if they're good enough to use at all, they're good enough to use all the time, so I do most of the time if more than 3 wires are involved. I think an additional benefit is that it gives the DIYer a connector that is pretty hard to screw up versus an improperly installed and/or sized wire nut.


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## TheElectricalGuru (Jan 16, 2007)

I hate the crimps.....seems that most of the time when I am dealing with previous work that used them...they fail to understand you need to maintain the length of the wire IN the box first before you go SNIPPIN them off.....sometimes I am lucky to have 2" on them before they are crimped to a MASS of EGC's...and it is just a mess...

I prefer " greenies" or a standard wirenut personally.....have been known to do some homes with solder and tape and it works fine as well....but nope I can honestly say I don't work with the crimps...


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*3 cents?*



MDShunk said:


> Faster? I don't know. It depends on what you get used to, I guess. I'd say that I can put on a crimp about as fast as you can twist on a wire nut, so it's about a wash in that regard. Cost wise, there's no race. The new rubberized wire nuts that I'm using now retail to the customer for about 28 cents, and the crimp sleeves are about 3 cents.


Where did you find those crimps for 0.03cents ?? I just bought a 1000 thinking I was saving money a few minutes ago. I even got gardner bender zinc coated ones 18-10


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## ibuzzard (Dec 28, 2008)

Five and a half year old thread, manure-for-brains.

Happy thanksgiving.


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## denny3992 (Jul 12, 2010)

Cletis said:


> Where did you find those crimps for 0.03cents ?? I just bought a 1000 thinking I was saving money a few minutes ago. I even got gardner bender zinc coated ones 18-10


Good luck with the gb....they're junk imo


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

TheElectricalGuru said:


> I hate the crimps.....seems that most of the time when I am dealing with previous work that used them...they fail to understand you need to maintain the length of the wire IN the box first before you go SNIPPIN them off.....sometimes I am lucky to have 2" on them before they are crimped to a MASS of EGC's...and it is just a mess...
> 
> I prefer " greenies" or a standard wirenut personally.....have been known to do some homes with solder and tape and it works fine as well....but nope I can honestly say I don't work with the crimps...


 
Hey Paul, are you still alive? I don't work in Alexandria. The city of Richmond is sure nice without you inspecting:whistling2:


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

denny3992 said:


> Good luck with the gb....they're junk imo


Why do you say that? they are UL listed and code compliant and I've never seen the steel/zinc coated ones ever break??????


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## Davethewave (Jan 6, 2012)

Cletis said:


> Why do you say that? they are UL listed and code compliant and I've never seen the steel/zinc coated ones ever break??????


I always Use T AND B with WT11M crimp pliers. Some inspectors in our area actually have compatibility inspections with sleeves and pliers. As long as the twists are there and the sleeve is tight I don't see a problem. As solid a connection as I have seen.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

Cletis said:


> Why do you say that? they are UL listed and code compliant and I've never seen the steel/zinc coated ones ever break??????


Cletis go back to sleep! Laying there in bed and buying things on Flea Bay is only going to hurt your bottom line. Otherwise get out of bed and start thinking clearly. :laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## denny3992 (Jul 12, 2010)

Ive used the gb ( in a pinch from te hardware store) just didnt like the feel of them!

Installation is major thing imo!

Ive seen the wires not twisted and crimped with ur strippers! FAILURE!!!!!!!

Twist and crimp with correct tool and leave plenty of slack!


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## wireman64 (Feb 2, 2012)

MDShunk said:


> Do you use crimp sleeves on your grounds? Buchannans or Ideals? What crimp tool do you use? The copper Buchannan's are supposed to be crimped with the C-24 "Press Sure" tool, and the yellow chromated steel Ideal's are supposed to be crimped with the die in their line pliers. That's what I'm learning, anyhow. I like to use the Buchannan press tool for all of them.
> What do you like for grounds?


I don't use em, but i think i might try em


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

dcc said:


> Loacal code here in Ca. requires that you use barrel crimps with a "proper" crimping tool. Wire nuts a not allowed.


Yep. The idea is to prevent Joe Homeowner from opening a ground circuit.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

denny3992 said:


> Ive used the gb ( in a pinch from te hardware store) just didnt like the feel of them!
> 
> Installation is major thing imo!
> 
> ...


Twist:laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

sbrn33 said:


> Twist:laughing::laughing::laughing:


 

I thought the same thing...


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## denny3992 (Jul 12, 2010)

So...... U dont twist?


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

denny3992 said:


> So...... U dont twist?


 

Hell no. Why would you?


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## denny3992 (Jul 12, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Hell no. Why would you?












See instructions


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

denny3992 said:


> View attachment 19343
> 
> 
> See instructions


 

I never saw that, but I honestly don't think that means pretwist the wires.


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## denny3992 (Jul 12, 2010)

No but it says TWIST 


Lesson learned for today!


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

denny3992 said:


> No but it says TWIST
> 
> 
> Lesson learned for today!


I guess that some of us did read the instruction for first  time however .,,

Like myself I always pretwist it first then slide the sleeve in and crimp it.

Reason., easier and quicker with less cussing on that.

I did try that with the instruction as McClary posted. It is ok with two or three conductors but once you get above 4 no way do the pretwisting first then slip that sleeve on.

Merci,
Marc


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

I use them sometimes. I always have linemans with the crimp die so I use that, we get the ideals most it seems.


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## Semi-Ret Electrician (Nov 10, 2011)

I use the crimps because the previous "electrician" cut the EGC off too short or just twisted them together, w/o a nut, then landed the longest one on the device.

I always use stranded THHN/THWN for the EGC within a box to prevent touching the ground and neutral (or hot). And, for ease of stuffing the device into the box.

I never use a WAGO. They're too much like back stab devices to me. I don't think they could survive a direct short.

BTW, I attended a seminar last week which stated 90% of all electrical problems were poor connections.


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*Yep*



Semi-Ret Electrician said:


> I use the crimps because the previous "electrician" cut the EGC off too short or just twisted them together, w/o a nut, then landed the longest one on the device.
> 
> I always use stranded THHN/THWN for the EGC within a box to prevent touching the ground and neutral (or hot). And, for ease of stuffing the device into the box.
> 
> ...


Yo, Semi

You should read this full article on wago's. It really suprised me, although I don't use them really because of cost and wire nuts are plentiful in my 81' Honda accord I wouldn't hesistate to use after reading this article in full...

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...&sig=AHIEtbSEzfw2lnDx7QwxURmUoGfy6UhgPg&pli=1


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## Semi-Ret Electrician (Nov 10, 2011)

Cletis, thanks for the info it does look very impressive and has me leaning in the WAGO direction. Sadly, I've been cutting them off recessed cans and trashing them for a long time,

But, the one thing that always bothered me, and still does, is the small contact area. If you wanted to cut the wire electrically you would do exactly what the WAGO does and hit it with a large current.

I'm looking forward to the test results that Brian John talked about.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

I'll admit, I've actually gone full circle with Wagos: Years ago, I cut them off, now I would use them without much though. That article posted a picture of the spring mechanism:









It made me wonder how different it is than a backstab:









Doesn't look a whole hell of a lot different, and I was actually surprised to see the amount of contact area in the backstab. Even not doing a ton of resi. work I've still replaced enough backstabs to think they're a legitimate problem.

How would the backstab fail? It seems like either the spring would have to be weak and allow the conductor to move or the conductor would have to curve and not make full contact with the flat matting surface. I can't see how Wagos are immune from either of those problems, though the Wago spring looks more robust.

I guess this is a case of time will tell.

-John


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

The problem with Wago brand is that they are made in China. My Ideal Twisters are made in USA.


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## woostaguy (Nov 19, 2012)

Klein tools # 1005 
I've used them forever with Buchanan non-insulated barrel crimps.
A grounding splice with a crimp needs to be twisted good before crimping to be effective (install the crimp before twisting).
To remove simply grab the crimp with a pair of line pliers ( non cutter side towards the spice and turn counter clockwise while pulling it off.


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## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

What's the point of using these crimps?

Around here it's wirenuts for grounds.


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## JoeKP (Nov 16, 2009)

I use them both kinds with my klien 9s always have, always will nothing more to it


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Big John said:


> I'll admit, I've actually gone full circle with Wagos: Years ago, I cut them off, now I would use them without much though. That article posted a picture of the spring mechanism:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Big John.,

The only weak link with Wago quick connector is ampacity rating I know they will useally muted on this part but from my experince on European side anything more than 24 amp on the wagos is cooking pretty good that based on our 4.0mm2 conductor which it is simair to your 12 awg conductors is.

And yeah they do have bigger wagos for higher ampacity which it rated for 32 amp for 6.0mm2 aka 10 awg conductors.

Merci,
Marc


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## ChrisH8802 (Feb 26, 2012)

MD, I don't do resi, but there is an industrial plant a few miles away from you that specs those buchanon's with snap-on caps and rubber boots for ALL connections. No wire nuts on anything, and yes it makes it a pain when something needs changed. You learn to leave the tails extra long.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

frenchelectrican said:


> ...The only weak link with Wago quick connector is ampacity rating....


 Marc, how long have y'all been using them? Do you have backstabs as well?

-John


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## Semi-Ret Electrician (Nov 10, 2011)

jza said:


> What's the point of using these crimps?
> 
> Around here it's wirenuts for grounds.


They work great when someone only left 1" of ground in a box and there is no way to use a wirenut


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Big John said:


> Marc, how long have y'all been using them? Do you have backstabs as well?
> 
> -John


 
Big John.,

I have used them over 15 years and I don't useally have much issue with them but just becarefull with copycaters they don't work very well and it can cause the same issue as backstabbers.

Yeah we do have some backstabber devices but not really widespread due most of the devices itself will have backwired or frontwired with pressure plate ( note this part it is insluated so you can not get touched not like antique stuff are ) 

Merci,
Marc


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