# Generator grounding question



## Funkadelicfred (Jan 30, 2019)

We set up an 18 kW "portable" generator for a mobile ice cream making business. The generator is sold and labelled as a portable one but is 18 kW, which is over the 12 usually attributed to portable ones. So on site, at an event, we had to bury a ground plate for it to pass inspection. Luckily, it was near the grass and easy to do but next time it might be on a big paved parking lot with no access to diggable ground. Is there any way around this short of using two 12 kW generators? This is Ontario btw. 

Can't ground to vehicle frame or anything either because it's set up like a booth with tables and there is no truck or vehicle nearby to ground to.


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## Mobius87 (May 20, 2019)

_CEC 10-214 1) A portable generator assembly shall not be required to be connected to a grounding electrode if the generator has the neutral bonded to the frame._


Appendix B mentions that it has to be under 12kW and 240V.


*But*

2) b) applies if it is mobile or vehicle mounted, and this does not have the same restrictions on size as 1). Is it mounted to a vehicle or trailer?


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## Funkadelicfred (Jan 30, 2019)

Mobius87 said:


> _CEC 10-214 1) A portable generator assembly shall not be required to be connected to a grounding electrode if the generator has the neutral bonded to the frame._
> 
> 
> Appendix B mentions that it has to be under 12kW and 240V.
> ...


Yeah those were the ones I was looking at too but the appendix elaborates and says if it's over 12 kw you basically treat it like any other service.

No its not mounted to vehicle or trailer it's placed on a wheeled piece of plywood like a skateboard. Is there some sort of rubber wheeled metal chassis that can be used as a ground and carted around or something?


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

Funkadelicfred said:


> Yeah those were the ones I was looking at too but the appendix elaborates and says if it's over 12 kw you basically treat it like any other service.
> 
> No its not mounted to vehicle or trailer it's placed on a wheeled piece of plywood like a skateboard. Is there some sort of rubber wheeled metal chassis that can be used as a ground and carted around or something?


Your small "s" isn't showing up. We see gibberish.


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## Mobius87 (May 20, 2019)

Look at 2) d) ii). Is the ice cream equipment located on a trailer or vehicle?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Can you use a ground rod up there? Drill a 5/8" hole thru the pavement and drive a rod. Afterwards sink the rod 6" down and use some black caulk to close it up.


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## Mobius87 (May 20, 2019)

Nevermind, just re-read your post. No vehicle.


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## Funkadelicfred (Jan 30, 2019)

HackWork said:


> Can you use a ground rod up there? Drill a 5/8" hole thru the pavement and drive a rod. Afterwards sink the rod 6" down and use some black caulk to close it up.


No, there's no way the venues will let the people drill holes Into the pavement


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Funkadelicfred said:


> No, there's no way the venues will let the people drill holes Into the pavement


So tell them to deal with the inspector.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Double tap.


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## Funkadelicfred (Jan 30, 2019)

HackWork said:


> Double tap.


This isn't about whether or not the venue will allow holes drilled into private parking lots, this is about a solution to the issue which doesn't include grounding rods or plates.


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## Funkadelicfred (Jan 30, 2019)

Bird dog said:


> Your small "s" isn't showing up. We see gibberish.


What a pain. Seems to happen on my phone and then it doesn't even show up. Only shows up on my PC that something is wrong.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

@;


Funkadelicfred said:


> This isn't about whether or not the venue will allow holes drilled into private parking lots, this is about a solution to the issue which doesn't include grounding rods or plates.


 It doesn’t seem like there is a solution. Sometimes the customers have to do things that they don’t want to.

I’m just saying, we are not the ones who should be taking the blame for not being able to find a solution when one does not exist.


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## Funkadelicfred (Jan 30, 2019)

HackWork said:


> @;
> 
> It doesn’t seem like there is a solution. Sometimes the customers have to do things that they don’t want to.
> 
> I’m just saying, we are not the ones who should be taking the blame for not being able to find a solution when one does not exist.


That's what I thought too, I couldn't find a solution either. I kept racking my head but I'm just an apprentice so I figured someone else might know more that I just haven't encountered yet. 

Putting two 12 kW's together would work though wouldn't it? Then you wouldn't need a ground plate/rod.


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

Funkadelicfred said:


> but I'm just an apprentice


Ask your journeyman.


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## Funkadelicfred (Jan 30, 2019)

Bird dog said:


> Funkadelicfred said:
> 
> 
> > but I'm just an apprentice
> ...


Yeah I did but it's a one man company and he doesn't know so rather than just give up I came on here for help.


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## B-Nabs (Jun 4, 2014)

I had an instructor once tell me a story about a large generator on a movie set he worked on. The set was downtown with no soil anywhere nearby to drive a rod or bury a plate. They ended up putting a plate on the pavement and heaping a bunch of ice cubes on it, and the inspector accepted that. 

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


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## Funkadelicfred (Jan 30, 2019)

B-Nabs said:


> I had an instructor once tell me a story about a large generator on a movie set he worked on. The set was downtown with no soil anywhere nearby to drive a rod or bury a plate. They ended up putting a plate on the pavement and heaping a bunch of ice cubes on it, and the inspector accepted that.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


Now that's something. Interesting solution but I don't think we can count on the inspector to accept that. We even called one and he said "idk"


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Funkadelicfred said:


> This isn't about whether or not the venue will allow holes drilled into private parking lots, this is about a solution to the issue which doesn't include grounding rods or plates.


Hackworth answered with the only practical solution. There are only a few grounding electrodes listed in the code. You can't make up your own. 
I would have drilled the hole and driven the rod without even thinking about asking. My view is that holes up to 1/8" in walls, floors and ceilings and up to 3/4" in pavement never even happened, they are inconsequential. 

You're actually asking how to ground something without touching the ground. This is ridiculous. There is pavement between what needs to be grounded, and, the ground. You'll have to penetrate the pavement. The ground rod is the least invasive of the approved grounding electrodes. 

If they really won't allow the hole in the pavement, then use two generators. Done. Nothing more to discuss.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

B-Nabs said:


> I had an instructor once tell me a story about a large generator on a movie set he worked on. The set was downtown with no soil anywhere nearby to drive a rod or bury a plate. They ended up putting a plate on the pavement and heaping a bunch of ice cubes on it, and the inspector accepted that.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


Oh, well, maybe Fred can squirt a plate with some cat urine and tie it to a bunch of helium balloons and let it hover over a copy of the Quran translated into Spanish. Seems about as effective.:vs_laugh:


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## Funkadelicfred (Jan 30, 2019)

splatz said:


> Funkadelicfred said:
> 
> 
> > This isn't about whether or not the venue will allow holes drilled into private parking lots, this is about a solution to the issue which doesn't include grounding rods or plates.
> ...


Grounding to A vehicle doesn't involve putting ground rods or plates in and that's an approved method. There is no vehicle but it's still a viable potential option.


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## B-Nabs (Jun 4, 2014)

CoolWill said:


> Oh, well, maybe Fred can squirt a plate with some cat urine and tie it to a bunch of helium balloons and let it hover over a copy of the Quran translated into Spanish. Seems about as effective.:vs_laugh:


I didn't say I thought it was effective or that I would do it, just offering an anecdote. 

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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

B-Nabs said:


> I didn't say I thought it was effective or that I would do it, just offering an anecdote.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


I know. You're not the one who came up with the "method".


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Instead of using wire, I fill a hose with water and bond to the water on each end.


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## Incognito (Apr 14, 2019)

Funkadelicfred said:


> We set up an 18 kW "portable" generator for a mobile ice cream making business. The generator is sold and labelled as a portable one but is 18 kW, which is over the 12 usually attributed to portable ones. So on site, at an event, we had to bury a ground plate for it to pass inspection. Luckily, it was near the grass and easy to do but next time it might be on a big paved parking lot with no access to diggable ground. Is there any way around this short of using two 12 kW generators? This is Ontario btw.
> 
> Can't ground to vehicle frame or anything either because it's set up like a booth with tables and there is no truck or vehicle nearby to ground to.


Are you hard wiring the generator to the load, or is it just receptacles on the generator and your running cords?


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## CTshockhazard (Aug 28, 2009)

Jus&#115 ren&#115 a damn &#115railer :biggrin:



















Just rent a damn trailer.


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## Funkadelicfred (Jan 30, 2019)

Incognito said:


> Are you hard wiring the generator to the load, or is it just receptacles on the generator and your running cords?


Genny goes to a small panel which is mounted on a wooden box with a lid and the panel has all the receptacles and such inside the box.


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## Incognito (Apr 14, 2019)

Funkadelicfred said:


> Genny goes to a small panel which is mounted on a wooden box with a lid and the panel has all the receptacles and such inside the box.


Then yes it must be grounded. If it had its own receptacles mounted on it, you would not have to ground it. 10-214(2) and appendix B

You can always run a grounding conductor to the closest piece of grass and install the ground rods there.


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## Funkadelicfred (Jan 30, 2019)

Incognito said:


> Funkadelicfred said:
> 
> 
> > Genny goes to a small panel which is mounted on a wooden box with a lid and the panel has all the receptacles and such inside the box.
> ...


Yeah that was my thought but the venues would call it a tripping hazard. We told them that they will need to use 2 smaller ones take a trailer.


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

Funkadelicfred said:


> Yeah that was my thought but the venues would call it a tripping hazard. We told them that they will need to use 2 smaller ones take a trailer.


2 separate sources of power to one unit sounds like sparks waiting to happen :biggrin:


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## Alexander89 (Sep 13, 2019)

HackWork said:


> So tell them to deal with the inspector.



Good idea!


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Funkadelicfred said:


> We set up an 18 kW "portable" generator for a mobile ice cream making business. The generator is sold and labelled as a portable one but is 18 kW, which is over the 12 usually attributed to portable ones. So on site, at an event, we had to bury a ground plate for it to pass inspection. Luckily, it was near the grass and easy to do but next time it might be on a big paved parking lot with no access to diggable ground. Is there any way around this short of using two 12 kW generators? This is Ontario btw.
> 
> Can't ground to vehicle frame or anything either because it's set up like a booth with tables and there is no truck or vehicle nearby to ground to.


You should invest in a few 11.5kw stickers if things are getting that touchy.


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## Kevin (Feb 14, 2017)

Funkadelicfred said:


> No, there's no way the venues will let the people drill holes Into the pavement


Carnivals do it all the time. You're in Ontario, have you heard of worlds finest shows? I worked for them a few years ago. We pounded ground rods in all the time through the pavement.

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## Kevin (Feb 14, 2017)

Incognito said:


> Then yes it must be grounded. If it had its own receptacles mounted on it, you would not have to ground it. 10-214(2) and appendix B
> 
> 
> 
> You can always run a grounding conductor to the closest piece of grass and install the ground rods there.


I know for carnivals/amusement parks there is a limit for the length of the ground wire (50 meters) and limited to 2 sets of connections on the ground wire. (2015 OESC section 66-200). Would this apply here? 

I know for the carnivals the generator has to be grounded because it's public safety, even if it's cam locks or plugs on the generator (mind you, carnivals use 500kw and bigger)... would that apply here?

Would this apply for this generator?

These are codes from 2015 OESC below:



> Section 66-000 Scope:
> (1) this section applies to the temporary installation of electrical equipment, utilizing any source of electrical power, for
> A: amusement parks;
> B: midways;
> ...


I'd think this would fall under similar events.



> Section 66-002 Special Terminology:
> In this section, the following definitions apply:
> *Concession* - a structure or a combination of structures erected for the purpose of entertaining or amusing people with games or shows and for the depending of food, souvenirs, and tickets, be sale or for any other purpose.


Ice cream is classified as food in my opinion.



> 66-200 grounding:
> (1) the service and electrical distribution shall be grounded in accordance with section 10.
> (2) notwithstanding rule 10-906(1)(a), grounding electrodes for mobile generators shall be permitted to be connected using single-conductor, plug-in, locking-type connectors.
> (3) a mobile generator grounding conductor shall
> ...


I'm genuinely curious if these codes would apply to this set up. 

I know these are old codes, I do not have the new code book yet, as I do not hold my licence yet, so I have no use for the new book yet. If there are changes to this section, please let me know.

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## Incognito (Apr 14, 2019)

Kevin_Essiambre said:


> I know these are old codes, I do not have the new code book yet, as I do not hold my licence yet, so I have no use for the new book yet. If there are changes to this section, please let me know.
> 
> Sent from my Samsung using Tapatalk


Dude, you need a new code book, they are not only for licensed electricians. Have you done all your trade school? How can you study for the red seal without a new code book?

Section 10 has been completely rewritten with new rules on grounding portable generators


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## Kevin (Feb 14, 2017)

Incognito said:


> Dude, you need a new code book, they are not only for licensed electricians. Have you done all your trade school? How can you study for the red seal without a new code book?
> 
> Section 10 has been completely rewritten with new rules on grounding portable generators


I'm on the verge of bankruptcy, don't even have insurance on my car to get to work right now... i got more inportant things to spend money on right now.

I need a 2018 Canadian electrical code or 2015 Canadian electrical code to write the red seal exam.

I know section 10 has be completely rewritten.

I have not done any schooling (can't afford it), the MCTU didn't tell me when I signed up for my apprenticeship that I needed a log book signed off... so now I have to go through 5 years of apprenticeship and get things signed off.

No one will hire a 5th year apprentice, with all their hours but no schooling, who's ready to write their red seal ASAP. Ice applied to 15 places, they ain't looking for someone who's almost a journeyman. They're either looking for a journyman, or for something like 1-3rd year apprentice.

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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Can we get Kevin a current code book? Anyone have an extra? I will pay shipping or if necessary for a new one.


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## Kevin (Feb 14, 2017)

HackWork said:


> Can we get Kevin a current code book? Anyone have an extra? I will pay shipping or if necessary for a new one.


Someone already PM'd me.

You guys are a good bunch on here.

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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Kevin_Essiambre said:


> Someone already PM'd me.
> 
> Sent from my Samsung using Tapatalk


Ok good, if it doesn't work out, let me know. I've made lots of money off of what I have gotten out of this forum and would love to give back some to someone who can use some help.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Biggest fear I have with drilling the holes and driving the ground rods, is what's below?


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