# Snow Melting Equipment and GFPE OCPD's



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Magnettica said:


> I am currently in the middle of a project and realized today that I am going to need GFPE circuit breakers to protect the heating cables. I'll need (3) 15a double pole CHCH, (3) single pole, and another double pole 30. I'm guessing they cost a couple of hundred dollars each. Is this about right?
> 
> All of the cables - who were installed by a hardwood floor guy more familiar with the product - were all Ohm'd and all tested ok. Is it common for a little current leakage (more than 5 milliamps) with these heating cables?
> 
> ...


It looks like the manufacturer must supply the protection.

424.99 Installation Under Floor Covering.



> (C) Installation. Listed heating panels or panel sets, if installed
> under floor covering, shall be installed on floor surfaces
> that are smooth and flat in accordance with the manufacturer’s
> instructions and shall also comply with 424.99(C)(1) through
> (C)(5).





> (5) Fault Protection. A device to open all ungrounded conductors
> supplying the heating panels or heating panel sets,
> provided by the manufacturer, shall function when a low- or
> high-resistance line-to-line, line-to-grounded conductor, or
> ...


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*brand*

What's brand panel. Mine were about $270 each for the 2 poles. Some of those kit's come with a gfci protected module. You just feed it normal. I'll look at link


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

HARRY304E said:


> It looks like the manufacturer must supply the protection.
> 
> 424.99 Installation Under Floor Covering.


Thanks for the info Harry but this is for removing snow. :whistling2:


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## stuiec (Sep 25, 2010)

Have you used the controls for this product before? I'm interested in the aerial mounted snow sensor in particular.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

stuiec said:


> Have you used the controls for this product before? I'm interested in the aerial mounted snow sensor in particular.


No, this is my first install of a system like this. 

Is this the sensor you speak of? http://cdn1.warmlyyours.com/0000/0163/sm-_aerial_mounted_snow_sensor_air-ss_10214.pdf


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## stuiec (Sep 25, 2010)

Magnettica said:


> No, this is my first install of a system like this.
> 
> Is this the sensor you speak of? http://cdn1.warmlyyours.com/0000/0163/sm-_aerial_mounted_snow_sensor_air-ss_10214.pdf


 
It looks like it fits the bill. The client is an architect and in all likelyhood choose it off some website without looking into the application he is specing it in. He simply speced 'snow switch' and gave a location (it is on his own home). It will control heat trace cable on the lower portion of a skylight. 

The one you posted looks like it requires the other control unit to function. From what I gather a number of conditions (humidity, temp), must be met before call for heat. I'm just wondering if this will work here where it gets plenty cold with low humidity.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Magnettica said:


> Thanks for the info Harry but this is for removing snow. :whistling2:


ARTICLE 426
Fixed Outdoor Electric Deicing and
Snow-Melting Equipment..:whistling2:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Magnettica said:


> Thanks for the info Harry but this is for removing snow. :whistling2:


Crap!

sorry i was reading the wrong article.:blink:.:laughing:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Magnettica said:


> Thanks for the info Harry but this is for removing snow. :whistling2:


Looks like your on the hook.



> 426.28 Ground-Fault Protection of Equipment. Groundfault
> protection of equipment shall be provided for fixed
> outdoor electric deicing and snow-melting equipment.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

HARRY304E said:


> Crap!
> 
> sorry i was reading the wrong article.:blink:.:laughing:


I was gonna say something like, "that's great if ever snows in the dining room" :laughing:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Magnettica said:


> I was gonna say something like, "that's great if ever snows in the dining room" :laughing:


It will if you leave the windows open....:laughing::thumbup::laughing:


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

HARRY304E said:


> It will if you leave the windows open....:laughing::thumbup::laughing:


Or if the roof ever blows off!


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## Clarky (Sep 25, 2011)

I Have installed such a system here in ski country in Vermont the home owner found a company out of Utah that supplied and helped me to install. I'm not sure there still using it or not the first month they got a $1200 electrical bill, a shovel and hiring someone to keep your walkway clean is probably cheaper! The sensor can be very sensitive, it reguires the right temp and hum. Lick your finger and touch the sensor and on she comes, try to locate away from blowing snow of the trees etc.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

the 30ma equip protection will be needed , the crosstalk (slang, i know) will trip the 5ma

that said, people that can afford to electrically heat the great outdoors can afford a gfpe

a few years back, i did an entire cobblestone driveway, ipod activated via the owner on his way on up

~CS~


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Magnettica said:


> Or if the roof ever blows off!


That's a good one..:laughing::thumbup::laughing:


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*Breakers*

Shop around now for breakers. You'll find those from $275-1k for the same breaker

Here is place is used for 2 pole gfci 30ma Siemans

http://www.jrlelectricsupplyinc.com/


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

http://livewiresupply.com/ has them. 

DP's are $104 ea.
SP's are $54 ea. 

Now I'll check with my SH and see how much they are there.


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*Class B*

YOu might want to recheck that. Is that for a Class B GFCI ?? That does not sound right. Sounds like Class A. I went through the ringer the first one of those I did. The tech explained you cannot run them off a Class A or you will for sure get lot's of false trips...hence the class B. 

LInk?

Good luck with supply house as well. All the ones I called were perplexed at the class b. 

http://circuit-breakers-online.com/Cutler-Hammer-Westinghouse/GFEP230.htm


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*more*

These guys are good too. The one below is refurbished which I think Zog and Brian J will testify is better testing than a new breaker. 

http://www.relectric.com/Store/Circuit-Breakers/GFEP230


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Cletis said:


> YOu might want to recheck that. Is that for a Class B GFCI ?? That does not sound right. Sounds like Class A. I went through the ringer the first one of those I did. The tech explained you cannot run them off a Class A or you will for sure get lot's of false trips...hence the class B.
> 
> LInk?
> 
> ...


My guys said, "what? hang on and let me get back to you"

The tech support made bio mention of class a or class b. But now that you've brought it up I most certainly will ask them.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Holy smokes!

2 - double pole 15's @ $315 each
2 - single pole 15's @ $275 each
1 - double pole 30 @ $794 each
1 - double pole 15 @ $971 each
1 - single pole 15 @ $568 each

My supply can get some of the breakers from one source but needs to order the rest directly from CH.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

F'n nice! My customer didn't even question the price I gave him. He just wanted to know who to write the check to. How great a customer is that?


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