# AFCI Breaker Functionality



## Achilles (Sep 11, 2014)

***Back Story***
Working on a 100 year old home, renovated a few times, the home owner had concerns over the safety of the existing electrical wiring.

The wiring was a combination of old cloth romex & more modern romex.

Instead tearing out the walls and rewiring the 2nd floor, I isolated the 2 circuits feeding the second floor and put them on AFCI breakers.

Later there was a complaint about a crackling sound originating in a 3-way switch. The wiring inside the switch box was a mess.

***Question***
It's been my understanding that AFCI breakers were designed to trip when a bad connection cause arcing. The breaker is installed properly, has anyone experienced this? Is the breaker functioning properly?


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

Achilles said:


> It's been my understanding that AFCI breakers were designed to *make the shareholders more money*. The breaker is installed properly, has anyone experienced this? Is the breaker functioning properly?


fify.

Anyhow, no one is really sure what AFCI's actually do.

Pete


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## daveEM (Nov 18, 2012)

Shred the second floor. Install new wire. Drywall and paint. The owner will not sleep till you do that.

Plus now he is primed to kick out the bucks to do the job right.


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## pete87 (Oct 22, 2012)

Is the crackling like Popcorn ?

When it comes to AFCI's , I enjoy the show .







Pete


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## AllWIRES (Apr 10, 2014)

Achilles said:


> ***Back Story***
> Working on a 100 year old home, renovated a few times, the home owner had concerns over the safety of the existing electrical wiring.
> 
> The wiring was a combination of old cloth romex & more modern romex.
> ...


I you sure you want to see how deep this rabbit hole goes?? :blink::no:


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## Achilles (Sep 11, 2014)

Is the crackling like Popcorn ?

Yes - It was poor/old wire splicing. The problem wasn't hard to fix (outside of the bastard why the 3-way was wired)

It just makes me question if AFCI's work, or if that AFCI works.

(Good advice on rewiring the 2nd Floor, but I left out the detail of the owner being a close friend. I have no interest in performing that much charity electric)


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

After the inevitable fire, help your friend to sue the stunning unbelievable never before achieved utmost crap out of the company that made the device that claimed it would prevent a fire. Take one for the team. 




civic duty. we will never forget you achilles, your name will go down in history. they will tell tales of you in schools forever. might even make a movie.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Somewhere between the story given in AFCI marketing and what we actually observe in the field lies The Grand Canyon. 

This same story existed in trade literature in the 1970's related to GFCI's. The hopes and wishes of the manufacturers exceeded the technology.


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## Almost always lurkin (Jul 30, 2014)

Here's an example of something that won't trip an AFCI. 




There are success stories at http://www.afcisafety.org/, but it's an NEMA site and what do you expect them to say?


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## pete87 (Oct 22, 2012)

Almost always lurkin said:


> Here's an example of something that won't trip an AFCI. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLmC5quELrE
> 
> There are success stories at http://www.afcisafety.org/, but it's an NEMA site and what do you expect them to say?




Show this to people who think AFCI's will save them .




Pete


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

*It has already been proven AFCIs will not reduce fires*

Arc mitigation technology has been mandated outside of North America for at least 40 years through RCD (GFCI) and low magnetic trip breakers, yet despite its implementation there has not been a significant decrease in electrical fires. In fact when one adjusts for wood framed buildings like Norway which has some of the strictest electrical installation standards on earth (heck it is flat out illegal for a home owner to touch wiring) dwelling fire statics continue to be similar to North America.


With that said it has already been established that arc mitigation technology will not make a significant dent in electrical fires. So in other words AFCIs will do nothing other then rake in profit for those who sell them. 

The above is what they dont want you to know about. :no:


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

MDShunk said:


> Somewhere between the story given in AFCI marketing and what we actually observe in the field lies The Grand Canyon.
> 
> This same story existed in trade literature in the 1970's related to GFCI's. The hopes and wishes of the manufacturers exceeded the technology.



GFCIs had their place with the large number of 2 prong none double insulated power tools which helped bring down electrocution statics. The irony being had they mandated 3 prong plugs for all none double insulated appliances we would also have seen a similar decrease without GFCIs.


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## pete87 (Oct 22, 2012)

EMT will reduce Fires .





Pete


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

This is a UL afci simulator>




















This is the paper they wrap a cord in>>>>










this is what happens to the cord with 7000 Volts applied>










this is why they need to use voltages not present in resi dwellings>










and this is what you get marketed from said UL test>




> *Series Protection* − A series arc fault is the unintended flow of electricity over a gap within a single wire. These arc faults were not detectable until advanced technology allowed the development of the Combination AFCI breaker.


read this and understand more

~CS~


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## AllWIRES (Apr 10, 2014)

chicken steve said:


> This is a UL afci simulator> This is the paper they wrap a cord in>>>> this is what happens to the cord with 7000 Volts applied> this is why they need to use voltages not present in resi dwellings> and this is what you get marketed from said UL test> read this and understand more ~CS~


Where do I sign up?


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

From this link CS posted: 

http://www.geindustrial.com/product...PRODUCTS&pnlid=3&famid=8&catid=36&id=cb-qafci









> Arc faults arise from a number of situations, including:
> 
> 
> Damaged wires
> ...


So what I am reading is that manufactures want us to believe that something at ground potential will create arcing while behind close doors 7,000 volts is being applied to lamp cords and 15,000 volts to NM cable...:no:


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

pete87 said:


> EMT will reduce Fires .
> 
> Pete


Over half of the population of Illinois live in areas where EMT is required for dwelling units.

The Chicago fire stats show that they have 75% fewer fires that are said to be of electrical origin as compared to the national average. Sure there are many reasons for that, but I expect the EMT requirement is one of the reasons.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> Over half of the population of Illinois live in areas where EMT is required for dwelling units.
> 
> The Chicago fire stats show that they have 75% fewer fires that are said to be of electrical origin as compared to the national average. Sure there are many reasons for that, but I expect the EMT requirement is one of the reasons.


I wonder how the property loss savings from 75% fewer electrical fires compares to the cost of having installed EMT in 100% of the properties? I support the requirement, but I can't help but wonder how the consumer fares.


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## drewsserviceco (Aug 1, 2014)

Perhaps the use of EMT rules out lazy fire officials blankety labeling the cause of a fire as electrical in nature. 

People overloading branch wiring with flimsy extension cords and space heaters is not an electrical fire. IMO. 

The public hears electrical fire and assumes wiring in the walls as the cause.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

drewsserviceco said:


> The public hears electrical fire and assumes wiring in the walls as the cause.


You can thank the fire officials for the free marketing. :thumbsup:


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

MDShunk said:


> You can thank the fire officials for the free marketing. :thumbsup:



As is more fires are just assumed as electrical.


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## Dengarrett (May 6, 2013)

MDShunk said:


> Somewhere between the story given in AFCI marketing and what we actually observe in the field lies The Grand Canyon. This same story existed in trade literature in the 1970's related to GFCI's. The hopes and wishes of the manufacturers exceeded the technology.


Would love to see some of those articles when GFCI's were introduced.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Dengarrett said:


> Would love to see some of those articles when GFCI's were introduced.




This is a good one:


http://www.necconnect.org/resources/gfcis/


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## ELECTRICK2 (Feb 21, 2015)

My understanding of AFIs is that if they sense an "arc" they trip.
Don't most motors produce arcs to work?
We don't do a lot of residential but the 2015 CEC requires AFI for just about everything.
Narrow it down to washing machine, which requires an AFI, won't the motor arc trip the AFI


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

I love AFCI's. I used to make $12 on a breaker. Now I make $35.


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

sbrn33 said:


> I love AFCI's. I used to make $12 on a breaker. Now I make $35.


I'm better at wiring than at PR, sales, and marketing, but:

I have a hard enough time convincing customer why a breaker now costs $45 ($10 markup), I don't want to try to get $70 ($35 markup).

I used to go years without getting that phone call "tripped breaker on a house you wired." I don't do much new construction anymore, but now I get calls for tripped breaker. So 1st I have to reassure and convince customer that I didn't do anything wrong, then figure out why AFCI tripped. So far switching breakers or telling customer to plug vaccuum into hall receptacle has worked, so far I haven't found any problems with my wiring tripping breaker (except when we first started using them, we found some grounds touching neutrals, now we're a lot more careful and that has not been happening).

I agree that my failings as a businessman are what cause my AFCI anxiety.


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

I forgot to include "cool" smiley that I hadn't noticed before, so here it is::vs_cool::vs_cool::vs_cool:


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## Almost always lurkin (Jul 30, 2014)

ELECTRICK2 said:


> My understanding of AFIs is that if they sense an "arc" they trip.
> Don't most motors produce arcs to work?
> We don't do a lot of residential but the 2015 CEC requires AFI for just about everything.
> Narrow it down to washing machine, which requires an AFI, won't the motor arc trip the AFI


You're asking the right questions.

The breakers have some smarts in them and are _supposed_ to be able to tell the difference between a vacuum cleaner and wiring damage by looking at details of the waveform.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

readydave8 said:


> I'm better at wiring than at PR, sales, and marketing, but:
> 
> I have a hard enough time convincing customer why a breaker now costs $45 ($10 markup), I don't want to try to get $70 ($35 markup).
> 
> ...



Customers are now the R&D for a technology thats to primitive to tell normal arcs from abnormal ones.

Personally customers are asking the right questions.


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## AllWIRES (Apr 10, 2014)

I explain to my clients the "benefits" of the magic arc sensing breakers, followed by a brief summary of how much the cost has increased, followed by a little more arc fault sensing icing. I also explain I'm not liable for any problems that may exist in the current wiring. If troubleshooting is required so is an additional charge of $xxx an hour. That clause goes in the contract and we move forward.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

AllWIRES said:


> I explain to my clients the "benefits" of the magic arc sensing breakers, followed by a brief summary of how much the cost has increased, followed by a little more arc fault sensing icing. I also explain I'm not liable for any problems that may exist in the current wiring. If troubleshooting is required so is an additional charge of $xxx an hour. That clause goes in the contract and we move forward.



What benefits? :laughing: 

If you were telling me that Id pull this out (the peak of 120 is 170 volts):


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## AllWIRES (Apr 10, 2014)

meadow said:


> What benefits? :laughing:
> 
> If you were telling me that Id pull this out (the peak of 120 is 170 volts):


:thumbup:

That's why I don't sell my services to electricians. :no:


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## AllWIRES (Apr 10, 2014)

I was actually thinking about adding a statement in my advertising like this...

"If you think you, your brother in-law, or your retired grandfather can do your project.... we are not the company for you!":thumbup::laughing:


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## Wpgshocker (Jan 25, 2013)

meadow said:


> What benefits? :laughing:
> 
> If you were telling me that Id pull this out (the peak of 120 is 170 volts):



What does that prove? Other than insulation works?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Wpgshocker said:


> What does that prove? Other than insulation works?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



That self sustained arcing can not take place at 120 volts.


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## Wpgshocker (Jan 25, 2013)

meadow said:


> That self sustained arcing can not take place at 120 volts.


Total Bulls!t...

Paschens law, might wanna read it. What distance apart are the conductors in your "evidence"? Also, Paschens law does not relate to current already flowing, rather ramping up voltage to the break over point.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paschen's_law

While lower voltages do not, in general, jump a gap that is present before the voltage is applied, interrupting an existing current flow with a gap often produces a low-voltage spark or arc. As the contacts are separated, a few small points of contact become the last to separate. The current becomes constricted to these small hot spots, causing them to become incandescent, so that they emit electrons (through thermionic emission)

Low voltage arcing, might wanna read that too

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_voltage

http://etap.com/support/articles/electrical-safety-measures-2009/etap-arc-flash-esm.pdf?lang=en-US


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## ELECTRICK2 (Feb 21, 2015)

Almost always lurkin said:


> You're asking the right questions.
> 
> The breakers have some smarts in them and are _supposed_ to be able to tell the difference between a vacuum cleaner and wiring damage by looking at details of the waveform.


A few years ago a carpenter tried to use his skill saw on a AFCI'd recept. it tripped every time. maybe the tech has improved maybe not.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

ELECTRICK2 said:


> A few years ago a carpenter tried to use his skill saw on a AFCI'd recept. it tripped every time. maybe the tech has improved maybe not.


Or maybe the brush holders were so fouled up in his saw that the AFCI did its job?


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## ELECTRICK2 (Feb 21, 2015)

meadow said:


> GFCIs had their place with the large number of 2 prong none double insulated power tools which helped bring down electrocution statics. The irony being had they mandated 3 prong plugs for all none double insulated appliances we would also have seen a similar decrease without GFCIs.


 GFCIs work the same as an amprobe. If you put your amprobe around hot and neutral and get an amperage something is wrong. If a GFCI sees a current, it trips. Current is going out but not coming back. Whether it's 2 prong or 3, don't matter. AFCIs are a different thing. Sensing the difference between motors and an actual fault, I don't think the technology is there yet.


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## ELECTRICK2 (Feb 21, 2015)

MDShunk said:


> Or maybe the brush holders were so fouled up in his saw that the AFCI did its job?[/quot
> New saw


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Wpgshocker said:


> Total Bulls!t...
> 
> Paschens law, might wanna read it. What distance apart are the conductors in your "evidence"? Also, Paschens law does not relate to current already flowing, rather ramping up voltage to the break over point.
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paschen's_law


Ok, hold on. First dont assume I have never studied Paschens because you would have no way of knowing. Second those conductors are least 1mm apart on average. Third I never made the claim Paschens applied to current already flowing. Fourth please take the time to read where that came from first, you will clearly find out the voltage "ramping up" is well beyond what you will ever deal with:

http://www.cpsc.gov//PageFiles/102851/technolopt1.pdf

http://www.cpsc.gov//PageFiles/102864/technolopt2.pdf









> While lower voltages do not, in general, jump a gap that is present before the voltage is applied, interrupting an existing current flow with a gap often produces a low-voltage spark or arc. As the contacts are separated, a few small points of contact become the last to separate. The current becomes constricted to these small hot spots, causing them to become incandescent, so that they emit electrons (through thermionic emission)



And the arc extinguishes. I never said contacts separating dont arc, what I am saying is that in typical 120 wiring a self sustained arc is impossible. There is an exception but I will let you figure it out. 





> Low voltage arcing, might wanna read that too
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_voltage
> 
> ...


Ummm, arc flash/arc blast is very different from sustained arcing. Second the wiki link is high voltage not 120 volt dwelling voltage.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

ELECTRICK2 said:


> GFCIs work the same as an amprobe. If you put your amprobe around hot and neutral and get an amperage something is wrong. If a GFCI sees a current, it trips. Current is going out but not coming back. Whether it's 2 prong or 3, don't matter. AFCIs are a different thing. Sensing the difference between motors and an actual fault, I don't think the technology is there yet.



A 3 prong will clear a hot to case fault, a 2 prong will not.

But riddle me this: Why are hard wired pool motors exempt from GFCI protection?


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## AllWIRES (Apr 10, 2014)

meadow said:


> Ok, hold on. First dont assume I have never studied Paschens because you would have no way of knowing. Second those conductors are least 1mm apart on average. Third I never made the claim Paschens applied to current already flowing. Fourth please take the time to read where that came from first, you will clearly find out the voltage "ramping up" is well beyond what you will ever deal with: http://www.cpsc.gov//PageFiles/102851/technolopt1.pdf http://www.cpsc.gov//PageFiles/102864/technolopt2.pdf And the arc extinguishes. I never said contacts separating dont arc, what I am saying is that in typical 120 wiring a self sustained arc is impossible. There is an exception but I will let you figure it out. Ummm, arc flash/arc blast is very different from sustained arcing. Second the wiki link is high voltage not 120 volt dwelling voltage.


Chill bud... The internet knows you're smart


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## drewsserviceco (Aug 1, 2014)

Someone has a passion for Paschen. 



Sorry, it's early and I've worked too many days in a row and just had to do it.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

*Maybe pigs really can fly?*



Wpgshocker said:


> Total Bulls!t...
> 
> Paschens law, might wanna read it. What distance apart are the conductors in your "evidence"? Also, Paschens law does not relate to current already flowing, rather ramping up voltage to the break over point.
> 
> ...



You'd like to throw electrical theory under the bus?

fine....

Go to 1:36 here>
https://youtu.be/iLmC5quELrE?t=71

there's your arc, afci does not trip

_why?_

because the device is *TESTED @ KV* to validate series protection....

_(wiring schematic and UL testing device>>>>)_











Further, and of more importance, the term electrical *arc* is actively being construed and reconstructed via UL _canned_ studies

Easy to do when the average sparky is not schooled in the *physics* of electrical theory , juxtaposed to those with $$$$ _(i'm told 100M worth of R&D)_ enough to convince us pigs can fly

And so we have the _evil all consuming baby eating_ ARC 

_fine...._

So why all the focus on *mag trip* levels? :blink:

Possibly because we exist in a system without any validation of R value in our grounding system?

Along with mag trip levels multiple times that of our Euro counterparts?

What do _they know that we don't_?:whistling2:

~CS~


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Wpgshocker said:


> Total Bulls!t...
> 
> Paschens law, might wanna read it. What distance apart are the conductors in your "evidence"? Also, Paschens law does not relate to current already flowing, rather ramping up voltage to the break over point.
> 
> ...


I see you have swallowed the AFCI koolade. :no:


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

MTW said:


> I see you have swallowed the AFCI koolade. :no:


The trolling runs high on this thread.:laughing:


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## ELECTRICK2 (Feb 21, 2015)

meadow said:


> A 3 prong will clear a hot to case fault, a 2 prong will not.
> 
> But riddle me this: Why are hard wired pool motors exempt from GFCI protection?


My point was (prolly not very well stated) was that GFCIs do work, were AFCIs are a little iffy. I have never hooked up any pool motors, so am not qualified to answer.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

My general thoughts on AFCI's in one place:

If AFCI's do what the marketing claims they do, they are one of the most useful life and property savings devices to hit our trade.
AFCI's do not appear to do the things they are marketed to do. They are an immature technology.
When AFCI's trip in the field, it nearly always seems to be from the GFCI portion of their technology.
AFCI's do not appear to trip on arcs in the field until the arc triggers the GFCI portion of the AFCI.
AFCI's only appear to trip on arc situations generated by laboratory test equipment and not field conditions.
AFCI's are mandated by code/law. As one electrician, I am unlikely to change that on my own.
We make money installing electrical products. Insofar as AFCI's are mandated, we make more money by installing them.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Achilles said:


> ***Back Story***
> Working on a 100 year old home, renovated a few times, the home owner had concerns over the safety of the existing electrical wiring.
> 
> The wiring was a combination of old cloth romex & more modern romex.
> ...


If you were IN the box there should not be any bad connections.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

*I got's a list too....*



MDShunk said:


> My general thoughts on AFCI's in one place:





Good list Shunk 

I often wonder why an inordinate %adge of sparky's are or have been FF's though

maybe it's because our trade is a mecca for blame by sorts that have little to no understanding of electrical theory.

in fact, maybe our electrical trade _itself _lacks....

Some , like Don G for ex., parse out fire stats very well here. Myself i KNOW they're all skewed having viewed enough smoking cellar holes with a chief who would poke at me with_ 'You get the job wiring it, the job putting it out, and the job rewiring it too!'_

I  _hated_ that with a passion.....

Yet, not only does the market's response follows suit, it offers what is essentially an empty fire extinguisher as a remedy.

Manufacturers are not about protecting the _integrity _of our trade, but (jmho) WE should be .....

~CS~


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

chicken steve said:


> ...
> Some , like Don G for ex., parse out fire stats very well here. .....
> 
> ~CS~


I do that because that is all we have to work with, and they can be used to against AFCIs just as it was used to support them.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

You do it with an informed and unbiased approach Don, which is more than i can say for the rest of howling ascii masses, pro OR con....

~CS~


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## Achilles (Sep 11, 2014)

RIVETER said:


> If you were IN the box there should not be any bad connections.


Man that's just mean. I suppose I feel obligated to defend myself. The concerns were old house / kids sleep upstairs.

I installed 2 AFCI breakers to protect the family from potentially bad wiring, I did not spend the time to open all the devices or walls.

I came back after the customer was worried about the switch *crackling*. I check, it was arcing, and it was on a new AFCI breaker.

I repaired the wiring at the switch - and posted my inquiry here as I was trying to figure out just what and AFCI was supposed to protect if not a badly arcing switch.


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## j.smith6300 (Sep 6, 2015)

Whether just someone's idea of what goes on, or science itself, I have always been told and read that there are pasically TWO types of arc fault. Paralle (line-to-line) and series (the kind caused by a loose connection. Also, not ALL AFCIs are created equal. From my understanding, if you need one that protects from series arc fault, you would need to use a COMBINATION AFCI which is listed to protect for both faults.Hopefully this was some help.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

There is nothing on the market that protects a series arc J.Smith

~CS~


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Achilles said:


> Man that's just mean. I suppose I feel obligated to defend myself. The concerns were old house / kids sleep upstairs.
> 
> I installed 2 AFCI breakers to protect the family from potentially bad wiring, I did not spend the time to open all the devices or walls.
> 
> ...


Although your concern is genuine, they won't help....

~CS~


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## ELECTRICK2 (Feb 21, 2015)

MDShunk said:


> My general thoughts on AFCI's in one place:
> 
> If AFCI's do what the marketing claims they do, they are one of the most useful life and property savings devices to hit our trade.
> AFCI's do not appear to do the things they are marketed to do. They are an immature technology.
> ...


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