# New Hack Work



## william1978

Is that your work?


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## walkerj

Do you think I would post these pictures here if I did this?

This was installed by a guy at work. An "electrician of 9 years."

I roughed in the slab.


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## william1978

The slab looks good.


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## user4818

You can always use those white pipes if you miss a stub up or two. :laughing:


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## 1991 Storm Trooper

That looks really nice dude. Your hired! Is that emt holding down your pvc runs? That is a really good idea. Will be using that one in the future.


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## william1978

I wish I could figure out how to post pictures. 480 has told me how but I still can't get it to work right. Must be my stupid ass.


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## user4818

william1978 said:


> I wish I could figure out how to post pictures. 480 has told me how but I still can't get it to work right. Must be my stupid ass.



Just set up a photobucket account or something similar. I did it and I'm a computer illiterate. So if I can do it, you can do it! :thumbsup:


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## 1991 Storm Trooper

Are those off sets out of the wall?? Did the tubs come with precut holes or did he lay it out that way? The off set don't even match!!! I hope someones going to fix this if the pipes are out the wall.


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## user4818

1991 Storm Trooper said:


> Are those off sets out of the wall?? Did the tubs come with precut holes or did he lay it out that way? The off set don't even match!!! I hope someones going to fix this if the pipes are out the wall.


I don't think anyone other than a few people on this forum are going to care the slightest bit that the offsets don't match. It's not the greatest workmanship but in the grand scheme of things I don't think it's much to worry about.


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## walkerj

No, that's in the wall and it's all closed up now.

If only I had pics of the whole job...

The guy that did this is a tard and won't be with us after this one is over.

I roughed in the slab, THATS IT


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## walkerj

The offsets aren't the problem, it's the 4" piece of conduit at the panel AND the offsets don't match.:jester:


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## william1978

1991 Storm Trooper said:


> Are those off sets out of the wall?? Did the tubs come with precut holes or did he lay it out that way? The off set don't even match!!! I hope someones going to fix this if the pipes are out the wall.


 You'r the first person I've ever heard call a panel can a tub. It must be a regional thing I guess.


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## knowshorts

Why would you need a pull line for the 2" nipples between the 3 panels on picture number 3?

Besides the disco being more crooked than Madoff, is it possible the ground is temporary?


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## 480sparky

william1978 said:


> I wish I could figure out how to post pictures. 480 has told me how but I still can't get it to work right. Must be my stupid ass.


Click here.


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## william1978

knowshorts said:


> Why would you need a pull line for the 2" nipples between the 3 panels on picture number 3?


 Maybe he is a phone guy.:laughing: I think that is where he tied the strings that are in other conduits.


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## 480sparky

knowshorts said:


> Why would you need a pull line for the 2" nipples between the 3 panels on picture number 3?.....


I got a nickel that says that's the ends of the lines pulled into the pipes tied off through the nipples.


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## knowshorts

walkerj said:


> The offsets aren't the problem, it's the 4" piece of conduit at the panel AND the offsets don't match.:jester:


I don't think this defines the word hack. Now if the guy made the offsets with a fat chick's legs or nippled in small chunks of flex, then maybe you can use the word "hack".


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## BDB

That has the look of someone not caring what their work looks like.


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## walkerj

knowshorts said:


> Why would you need a pull line for the 2" nipples between the 3 panels on picture number 3?


 


william1978 said:


> Maybe he is a phone guy.:laughing: I think that is where he tied the strings that are in other conduits.





knowshorts said:


> Besides the disco being more crooked than Madoff, is it possible the ground is temporary?


You are looking at this guy's finished product


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## william1978

480sparky said:


> I got a nickel that says that's the ends of the lines pulled into the pipes tied off through the nipples.


 I'm not going to bet you on that because your exactly correct.:thumbsup:


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## walkerj

knowshorts said:


> I don't think this defines the word hack. Now if the guy made the offsets with a fat chick's legs or nippled in small chunks of flex, then maybe you can use the word "hack".


 
Now that you bring it up, it wouldn't suprise me if he did:laughing:




BDB said:


> That has the look of someone not caring what their work looks like.


 
I can't agree more


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## 1991 Storm Trooper

Peter D said:


> I don't think anyone other than a few people on this forum are going to care the slightest bit that the offsets don't match. It's not the greatest workmanship but in the grand scheme of things I don't think it's much to worry about.


Oh I agree. Just an observation. Something that was drilled in my head sinces one, sorry. When I first started the commercial contractor I worked for was very anneal about things like that. Seen people fired if the pipes were not straight and if coupling didn't match.


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## 1991 Storm Trooper

walkerj said:


> The offsets aren't the problem, it's the 4" piece of conduit at the panel AND the offsets don't match.:jester:


 I didn't catch the 4" pipe, guess so:laughing:


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## william1978

1991 Storm Trooper said:


> I worked for was very anneal about things like that. Seen people fired if the pipes were not straight and if coupling didn't match.


 Sounds like we worked for the same guy,but I loved it. I've allways liked working for a hardass.:thumbsup:


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## 1991 Storm Trooper

william1978 said:


> You'r the first person I've ever heard call a panel can a tub. It must be a regional thing I guess.


 Ya,, it is... or a shop thing. Just then guts are out. Tub is just a pc of the panel. Also heard it called a pan.:blink:


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## user4818

william1978 said:


> Sounds like we worked for the same guy,but I loved it. I've allways liked working for a hardass.:thumbsup:


There's a time and place for neat work, and there's a time and place for "get r done." If you apply the same rules to every job regardless of time/cost constraints, you are going to be in trouble really fast ($$$.)


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## william1978

Peter D said:


> you are going to be in trouble really fast ($$$.)


 Well we've made good money on every job that the general contractors pay up on.


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## drsparky

william1978 said:


> You'r the first person I've ever heard call a panel can a tub. It must be a regional thing I guess.


They call them "tub" in Maine and Ohio. It's not a panel 'till the guts are installed.


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## redbeard43

the pvc looks great, but why are they not buried? it only leaves a small amount of room for concrete. If they wonder why the concrete is cracking, dont show them this picture. I see the gravel they are spreading but you still are thinning the concrete. I know you can do better Dogg..hehe


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## 480sparky

redbeard43 said:


> the pvc looks great, but why are they not buried? it only leaves a small amount of room for concrete.......


Sometimes, that's the plan..... excavate enough so you can lay your pipes on the rough grade, then fill over them with sand.


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## william1978

drsparky said:


> They call them "tub" in Maine and Ohio. It's not a panel 'till the guts are installed.


 Yes that is correct. Thats why I called it a panel can.


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## redbeard43

oh yea, i call them cans instead of tubs. we used to have a 1000 amp can and used to throw dice! CRAPS!!!


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## william1978

Some jobs around here they rough the slab first and then bring in a conveyer belt truck and spread the gravel over the conduit. The conduit is usually about 8" to 10" deep.


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## redbeard43

i know thats a plan but he pipes are "strapped" in place, there is no excavating here. plan ahead on paper then dig. ive done the emt thing before and ive also went to the trouble to make a horeshoe out of the emt. Im not degrading the work, it does look great.


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## william1978

Why dig if your under the 4" of gravel.


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## redbeard43

in Texas, mostly, we dont use gravel, hard clay is our game with 100%+ compaction. if your base is 10'' lower than finish grade and you use 4'' of fill with 6'' of crete, then no, i wouldnt dig either unless its bigger pipe.


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## redbeard43

this is some of what we have to work with, the pvc's are not a finished product before the crete, it gives you an idea how we have to do it here. :thumbsup:


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## gilbequick

In Picture #2 what's spacing the tops of the service from the wall? The bottom is on the brick which looks to be sticking out 3 or 4 inches from the stucco'd wall above it....


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## leland

drsparky said:


> They call them "tub" in Maine and Ohio. It's not a panel 'till the guts are installed.



'Tubs' in Ma. too. The conduits from the 'tub' to the splice can.. 'Gunners',that I think was more of a contractor term.


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## Mr. Sparkle

Is that a giant dent I see in the top of the disco? If so, amongst other things....why in the world would you install it out of the box like that? And for the love of god can you at least face the stamp on the pvc toward the wall........


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## dawgs

Peter D said:


> There's a time and place for neat work, and there's a time and place for "get r done." If you apply the same rules to every job regardless of time/cost constraints, you are going to be in trouble really fast ($$$.)


 If the job was bid so tight that the men cant take a few extra minutes to match the offsets and level and space the conduits then they need a new estimator. I believe quality workmanship and git r done can both be accomplished at every job.


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## user4818

dawgs said:


> If the job was bid so tight that the men cant take a few extra minutes to match the offsets and level and space the conduits then they need a new estimator. I believe quality workmanship and git r done can both be accomplished at every job.


We will have to remain in disagreement. Other than lack of supports I don't see anything about those conduit runs that is troubling considering they are going to be concealed.


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## dawgs

Peter D said:


> We will have to remain in disagreement. Other than lack of supports I don't see anything about those conduit runs that is troubling considering they are going to be concealed.


 I respect you thoughts, I'm just not a "bow and go" type of guy. To much industrial under my belt.


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## LGLS

I'm with Peter. Save the pretty for the exposed work, after 1 month nobodys going to see those offsets ever again.


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## dawgs

As an owner it would be worth the few hundred bucks extra that the job may have cost in the end to have the same pix posted here on how good the job looked rather than the title hack work.


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## oldman

In a perfect world anyway.


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## drsparky

Hate to bring it up but; underground duct banks should have separation between the conduits. We always use “chairs” that lift the conduit off of the hard soil and space the conduit. Then back fill with clean sand, top and bottom. Up north the frost will move rocks and conduit if you don’t give it a good base. We try to look at the long term 20 or more years. Also refer to NEC annex B figure B.310.1 - .2 and the rest of the applicable sections in that area.
I agree with the offsets are "hack" work, not the work of a craftsman.


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## 1991 Storm Trooper

drsparky said:


> I agree with the offsets are "hack" work, not the work of a craftsman.


Now that I think about it... How hard is it, and how much time does it take to make the off sets match??? You had to measure to get your offset depth, toss in your multiplier, and mark all the pipes the same!!! It's not to fen hard. That is a 1st month apprentice mistake. I agree,, HACK!! 

I know it 's barried and doesn't have to look as good as exposed, but I'm of the furm beleaf in quality (unlike my spelling). Yes, no one is going to see it. Except the general who my wonder who the hell did I just hire and should I give these guys more work if this is quality of the work that I am paying them for. I'm sure the bid didn't say, work preformed to code and sloppy as hell.


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## oldman

1991 Storm Trooper said:


> Now that I think about it... How hard is it, and how much time does it take to make the off sets match??? You had to measure to get your offset depth, toss in your multiplier, and mark all the pipes the same!!! It's not to fen hard. That is a 1st month apprentice mistake. I agree,, HACK!!
> 
> I know it 's barried and doesn't have to look as good as exposed, but I'm of the furm beleaf in quality (unlike my spelling). Yes, no one is going to see it. Except the general who my wonder who the hell did I just hire and should I give these guys more work if this is quality of the work that I am paying them for. I'm sure the bid didn't say, work preformed to code and sloppy as hell.


We don't know the whole situation. Was this job hard bid for a GC that puts every job out to 5+ ec's and always takes low bid? Was this job bid tight just to keep the men getting a paycheck? Is the GC a horrible payer and the work thrown in just to meet a milestone and get a payment?

Maybe the OP knows.


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## BDB

oldman said:


> We don't know the whole situation. Was this job hard bid for a GC that puts every job out to 5+ ec's and always takes low bid?


Around here, that is the only kind of job there is.But we still take pride in the way our work looks.


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## walkerj

gilbequick said:


> In Picture #2 what's spacing the tops of the service from the wall? The bottom is on the brick which looks to be sticking out 3 or 4 inches from the stucco'd wall above it....


 
Strut(not level) with spring nuts and all thread


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## oldman

BDB said:


> Around here, that is the only kind of job there is.But we still take pride in the way our work looks.


Around here, too many hard bid jobs go at prices where you can't afford to take pride. 

Hell, I'll show you conduit work on jobs we've done where I wonder what the men were thinking when they installed it. And I wasn't gonna have them do it a 3rd or 4th time, since it was going to be buried. 

But I can also show pics of projects with exposed conduit that are near works of art. To the point that inspectors have taken pictures to show off. 

I was raised, and taught, to do it right and take pride. I have had enough employees to realize not everyone was taught that way. And I've learned to pick my battles to avoid a full blown heart attack by age 40.


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## knowshorts

A lot has been said about the offsets in the 3rd picture. People are in such a rush to call this guy a Hack. 

1st of all, the installer is in Lousianna. Let's cut him some slack.

2nd of all, let's observe what we can see. 

Panel 1 - (6) 3/4" ko's equally spaced. All offsets apear to be equal. Larger spacing between conduit 4 and 5. Why? Obstruction we cant see? Couplings all lined up. Could very well be legally straped just out of range of photo. 

Panel 2 - (6) 3/4" ko's equally spaced. 1st (3) conduits are the same as panel 1. Conduit 4 offset, same as first 3. Conduit 5 offset different. Was this conduit bent that way to roll out of way of obstruction we cant see? Oh crap, maybe conduits 4 and 5 were stubbed into room panels are in and now lighting crew comes in and says those to conduits are in the way of my fixtures. Fixtures were originaaly suposed to be 4" deep and the ones that arived are 6 1/2" deep. "Hey Tony, can you jack those conduits up a little? I got fixtures going right there." Conduit 6 - DOES need an offset. No visable straps on conduits 5 and 6, yet they may still be strapped legally.

Panel 3 - (2) 3/4" conduits. Offsets equal and are addequately spaced. Offsets are higher than panel 1, yet more in line with panel 2. Possibly legally strapped. Obstructions cleared.

Like others have said, maybe job was tight, maybe boss said "can't see it from my house". WE don't know. OP might know either. 

I will not defend pictures 1, 2, and 4.


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## walkerj

The job was bid for one electrician and two helpers. 

It was the low bid but had plenty of man hours to not do work like this. 

It takes no longer to match all the offsets and the truth is, they were bent to all match:laughing: but the 90's topside weren't at the right elevation.

When I bend to make them match, I bend the first stick how I want it and record the measurements, make sure it fits right, THEN bend the other ones. This guy just bent them all.

The meter can and disco are both bent to sh!t and will be replaced shortly.

As far as this being a "duct bank" I don't believe that applies since the tables in 310.60 start at #8 and all wiring in these conduits are <#10 
:whistling2:


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## davis9

How good where the helpers? Was the guy babysitting the whole time? Are there any ratio of Lic to Helpers in LA?

Tom


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## knowshorts

walkerj said:


> The job was bid for one electrician and two helpers.


Since you are the "Head Gangbox Unlocker" I will assume you are on of the helpers.



walkerj said:


> It was the low bid but had plenty of man hours to not do work like this.


How do you know? 



walkerj said:


> It takes no longer to match all the offsets and the truth is, they were bent to all match:laughing: but the 90's topside weren't at the right elevation.


That explains the couplings. We have ALL done that.



walkerj said:


> When I bend to make them match, I bend the first stick how I want it and record the measurements, make sure it fits right, THEN bend the other ones. This guy just bent them all.


Maybe he had other things on his mind that day, and made a simple mistake.




Another thing: You ran the 3/4" PVC. Guess what, all your bends will be hidden also. It appears you had a heater on site, yet you used factory PVC 90's. Some would argue that is HACK work.

Why use strut and strut straps when you could of used EMT and tie wire?


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## user4818

Once again I will point out that the only people who care about how this looks are some Monday morning quarterback electricians. And besides the service, which _is_ awful, the conduit does not look that bad.


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## Mr. Sparkle

Something else just caught my eye, will the panel covers all fit properly? It looks to me like you are cutting it real close as far as the covers overlapping one another in the center there.


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## walkerj

knowshorts said:


> Since you are the "Head Gangbox Unlocker" I will assume you are on of the helpers.?


Sure, why not? 
I am a helper, a journeyman, an estimator, a project manager, a foreman, a service tech, a consultant, and soon to be EC(not quitting the day job, though)



knowshorts said:


> How do you know?


I know because I spend half of my time in the field, 1/4 of my time doing service calls and estimates out in the field(old work), and 1/4 of my estimating in the office(new work).



knowshorts said:


> That explains the couplings. We have ALL done that.


I agree



knowshorts said:


> Maybe he had other things on his mind that day, and made a simple mistake.


He's had 'other things on his mind' for three months.



knowshorts said:


> Another thing: You ran the 3/4" PVC. Guess what, all your bends will be hidden also. It appears you had a heater on site, yet you used factory PVC 90's. Some would argue that is HACK work.


No heater bender for the little stuff. That was all bent around the stakes



knowshorts said:


> Why use strut and strut straps when you could of used EMT and tie wire?


Either way same result. I like to leave the rack in place with straps on conduit so nothing is required when mounting the can other than glueing on some adapters.


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## walkerj

Mr. Sparkle said:


> Something else just caught my eye, will the panel covers all fit properly? It looks to me like you are cutting it real close as far as the covers overlapping one another in the center there.


 
No, they don't fit right.

Good catch!


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## knowshorts

Jason,

Since the job was bid for 1 electrician and 2 helpers, and the guy you knocked is an electrician with 9 years experience and since you are one of the helpers, what is all this about?

"I am a helper, a journeyman, an estimator, a project manager, a foreman, a service tech, a consultant, and soon to be EC(not quitting the day job, though)"

Why were you the low man on the totem pole on this job with all your experience?

And why not quit your day job and jump in the EC field?


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## knowshorts

walkerj said:


> No, they don't fit right.
> 
> Good catch!


Shave and re-paint.


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## gilbequick

Only on the 3rd picture:

HOLY CRAP people it's not the prettiest thing but come on it's going to be covered up in a wall never to be seen again. It wasn't bent incorrectly it just wasn't bent picture perfectly. It WILL FUNCTION EXACTLY like the others. It's not worth the extra time and material to redo it to make it match, that would be wasteful.

Exposed = Change It.
Covered in a wall =Leave It.

The other pics 1,2 and 4 are bad.


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## walkerj

knowshorts said:


> Jason,
> 
> Since the job was bid for 1 electrician and 2 helpers, and the guy you knocked is an electrician with 9 years experience and since you are one of the helpers, what is all this about?
> 
> "I am a helper, a journeyman, an estimator, a project manager, a foreman, a service tech, a consultant, and soon to be EC(not quitting the day job, though)"
> 
> Why were you the low man on the totem pole on this job with all your experience?
> 
> And why not quit your day job and jump in the EC field?


 
I wasn't a helper on this job, I roughed in the slab and did recon for the office.:shuriken:

Why quit my day job when I can keep it while others are making 1/2 what I make?:thumbup:

Why go out on my own at 24 when I can learn so much from the estimators/PM's and owner of this company and get paid to do what I love?:thumbup:

One day I will go out on my own, but now is not the time. 
Now, if the resi work were to pick up again like it was 2-7 years ago, that would be another story.

In reference to the 'offset' picture, that was only posted to stir the pot:jester:


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## BDB

gilbequick said:


> It's not worth the extra time and material to redo it to make it match, that would be wasteful.


Well if the fella had any respect for the look of his work, he would have done it right to start with and would not have to REDO it. But since it is already done and will be covered up (hopefully pretty damn fast) then I would not say redo it.


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## user4818

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> I'm with Peter. Save the pretty for the exposed work, after 1 month nobodys going to see those offsets ever again.



We agree on something? Whoa! This calls for a celebration. arty:


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## slowforthecones

I looked at the photos.. doesn't look like hack work. It looks sloppy but not hack work


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