# Why is there paper in romex?



## daveEM (Nov 18, 2012)

Canada tossed paper in loomex, I don't know, maybe 30 or 40 years ago. 

^^ That was our brand, what we call it here... sorta like fridge.


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## Travvy (Sep 17, 2017)

I’ve heard it has something to do with the manufacturing process. I work with a guy who claims it provides some sort of protection when you remove the sheathing.


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

Look up UL listing E 123775. Among other things the paper is fire resistant.
https://studylib.net/doc/18051353/type-nm-b---copper-conductor---600v


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## Service Call (Jul 9, 2011)

drsparky said:


> Look up UL listing E 123775. Among other things the paper is fire resistant.
> https://studylib.net/doc/18051353/type-nm-b---copper-conductor---600v




I might have to try it. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

Travvy said:


> I’m sure this has been discussed here before, but the search function leaves much to be desired. I’ve heard several different explanations. Does anyone know the real reason? It just seems somewhat counterintuitive to have a flammable material in such close proximity to the conductors.


What about that flammable plastic in direct contact with the conductors?


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## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

Probably without the paper it would be like striping UF. 

There’s a local manufacturer of MC cable here. He would sometimes make the rounds to job sites. He asked how I liked his product. It was MC-AP. I said his product takes longer to install than other brands. He would wrap the plastic around the group of conductors in such a way that it takes more time to pull it off than other brands. He said the plastic was there to meet some standard on how crush proof the conductors are. I think it had the stings between the conductors also. 

I would think the only damage would be during the manufacturing process. Maybe box clamps? There’s nothing going to protect it if you smash it good with a hammer, or drive over it with a lift.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Travvy said:


> I’m sure this has been discussed here before,* but the search function leaves much to be desired.* I’ve heard several different explanations. Does anyone know the real reason? It just seems somewhat counterintuitive to have a flammable material in such close proximity to the conductors.


Don't you dare put down the search function on here. People have been banned for that.


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## Apelectric (Dec 6, 2017)

I believe it's to help in the manufacturing of the Romex


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Just to be different. Just Like how the rest of the planet uses metric.


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## Travvy (Sep 17, 2017)

CoolWill said:


> Travvy said:
> 
> 
> > I’m sure this has been discussed here before, but the search function leaves much to be desired. I’ve heard several different explanations. Does anyone know the real reason? It just seems somewhat counterintuitive to have a flammable material in such close proximity to the conductors.
> ...


I suppose you have a point. I just see an obvious purpose for the plastic.


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## Wardenclyffe (Jan 11, 2019)

https://diy.stackexchange.com/a/36567


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

The reason they put paper in Romex is because until very recently , Hemp was illegal to grow.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

I remember seeing a sample of paper free NM cable at a trade show a few years back. It was not the real Romex brand but from another company I will not name because a real loser works there. I'm guessing nothing ever came of it because I have not seen it anywhere to this day.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

One of the sales guys at a supply house show gave me a roll of the paperless to try. I think it takes longer to strip. Not as bad as UF, but still more time consuming than the type we are used to here in the US.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

nrp3 said:


> One of the sales guys at a supply house show gave me a roll of the paperless to try. I think it takes longer to strip. Not as bad as UF, but still more time consuming than the type we are used to here in the US.


I see.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Probably a couple of years ago. Haven't seen it since.


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## RICK BOYD (Mar 10, 2008)

*paper in romex*

. Does anyone know the real reason


the conductors are bundled ,
then paper covered ,
then pulled thru an extruder to apply the sheath as a liquid


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## RICK BOYD (Mar 10, 2008)

*paper in romex*

. Does anyone know the real reason


the conductors are bundled ,
then paper covered ,
then pulled thru an extruder to apply the sheath as a semi liquid 










single strand process at 3:00 min in sheath is done the same way


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

Paper is a filler. You see paper "cords" in larger cables, too. It fllls the voids so that the outer jacket is more evenly distributed. If they didn't put it in there either they would have problems with the jacket or with molded type jackets such as in medium voltage cables, they'd spend a lot more money using more expensive outer jacket material as filler. They can really put anything in there...rubber, paper, mylar, more conductors, strength members (the cotton threads you often find in some cables) but paper filler is the cheapest filler. In more expensive cables and in some that are for wet locations you often find rubber fillers instead of paper since it doesn't wick moisture into the jacket. That being said I just laid and terminated a whole lot of 3/C 350 MCM TC-ER that had three large paper-like cords for fillers a few weeks ago in addition to a bunch of smaller rubber fillers. It was Nexans brand, probably made in the Alabama Amercable plant. The first 5-10 feet on the spool had wicked up a huge amount of moisture into the fillers and was all rotten inside.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

There is no paper in Romex in first world countries.


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## Nutmegger777 (Mar 14, 2014)

It must be to reduce the friction between the sheath and the conductors. That way, when you pull the cable and it snags, the sheath may get nicked or just keep gliding past whatever imperfection snagged it, all without transferring the friction to the conductors in the cable.


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## varmit (Apr 19, 2009)

As others have said, the paper is a filler, but the paper also prevents the jacket from bonding to the conductor insulation in the extruding process. Yes, the cable could be manufactured without the filler material, but would be more expensive to make and to install.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

varmit said:


> As others have said, the paper is a filler, but the paper also prevents the jacket from bonding to the conductor insulation in the extruding process. Yes, the cable could be manufactured without the filler material, but would be more expensive to make and to install.


How much does a roll of paper romex cost? I want to compare it to our romex that does not have the paper.

Also, can you explain why it would be more expensive to install without the paper?


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

eddy current said:


> How much does a roll of paper romex cost? I want to compare it to our romex that does not have the paper.
> 
> Also, can you explain why it would be more expensive to install without the paper?


Just going to the HD site, they pay about the same as us when you adjust for currency.

I bought a pair of those strippers once that are supposed to score NMD and it stunk (maybe it was my complete lack of manual dexterity). I think they’re designed for American Romex.


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## Nutmegger777 (Mar 14, 2014)

varmit said:


> As others have said, the paper is a filler, but the paper also prevents the jacket from bonding to the conductor insulation in the extruding process. Yes, the cable could be manufactured without the filler material, but would be more expensive to make and to install.


i accept your premise, but I reject the conclusion :wink: 
By preventing the jacket from sticking to the conductors they achieve a greater flexibility of the whole assembly, plus lesser degree of snagging on rough edges.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Trust me, paperless Romex is super easy to install.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

99cents said:


> Trust me, paperless Romex is super easy to install.


For sure. Also easier to strip. You can grab the bare ground and just pull it even. It easily cuts through the sheath


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

eddy current said:


> How much does a roll of paper romex cost? I want to compare it to our romex that does not have the paper.
> 
> Also, can you explain why it would be more expensive to install without the paper?


A 250 foot roll of 12-2 at Home Depot costs $72.97, American. A 75 meter roll of 12-2 at Home Depot Canada costs $93.04, American. So you pay $20 more per roll and get 4 feet less.


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

CoolWill said:


> A 250 foot roll of 12-2 at Home Depot costs $72.97, American. A 75 meter roll of 12-2 at Home Depot Canada costs $93.04, American. So you pay $20 more per roll and get 4 feet less.



Must be Canadian import charges in there. Just checked local big box (Lowes here...HD gave up on North Carolina East of 95) and it's $69.98 for a 250 foot roll. At HD in Knightdale (Raleigh), the closet HD to me at about 100 miles away (that's 160 km for Canookistanis), it's $70.47. Basically the same price.


Don't know about NM-B as I'm mostly industrial and the only NM-B I ever mess with is in my house but once in a while we get industrial cables that don't have the little layers of what looks like mylar that I was told are called separating tapes, or paper in them where the jacket adheres to the insulation, kind of like UF, and it's total crap. It's almost impossible to strip it apart without nicking the insulation. The price is usually almost the same with or without it.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

CoolWill said:


> A 250 foot roll of 12-2 at Home Depot costs $72.97, American. A 75 meter roll of 12-2 at Home Depot Canada costs $93.04, American. So you pay $20 more per roll and get 4 feet less.


"Meter"


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

99cents said:


> Trust me, paperless Romex is super easy to install.


Not worth the extra $20 a roll for the 'paperless' experience to me.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

CoolWill said:


> A 250 foot roll of 12-2 at Home Depot costs $72.97, American. A 75 meter roll of 12-2 at Home Depot Canada costs $93.04, American. So you pay $20 more per roll and get 4 feet less.


This pisses me off. Why 70m? Why not 76m which is 249' 4"? Why not 75m which is a nice round number and 246'? Canadians get shorted again.


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

MTW said:


> "Meter"



"Metre"


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

splatz said:


> This pisses me off. Why 70m? Why not 76m which is 249' 4"? Why not 75m which is a nice round number and 246'? Canadians get shorted again.


He said it was a 75 meter roll. :blink:


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

MTW said:


> "Meter"


Yeah, you know, the far superior way things are measured in every country on the planet except for a couple of third word countries.........and the US:wink:


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Not worth the extra $20 a roll for the 'paperless' experience to me.


The $20 is not because it’s paperless, we pay more for many things here.

Look up a roll of single conductor cable and you will see we pay about $20 more for it too


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

MTW said:


> He said it was a 75 meter roll. :blink:


Thank you I feel better now.


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

CoolWill said:


> A 250 foot roll of 12-2 at Home Depot costs $72.97, American. A 75 meter roll of 12-2 at Home Depot Canada costs $93.04, American. So you pay $20 more per roll and get 4 feet less.


Par for the course up here. Take just about any item, add the exchange rate, and it's still more up here.

Smaller market, higher delivery charges etc...


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

eddy current said:


> The $20 is not because it’s paperless, we pay more for many things here.
> 
> Look up a roll of single conductor cable and you will see we pay about $20 more for it too


If I was up there I'd be paying $20 more than what I get down here.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

MechanicalDVR said:


> If I was up there I'd be paying $20 more than what I get down here.


But you would also be getting a far superior product, lifestyle and bigger pay check :biggrin::biggrin:

Totally worth it

My point being that the paper in your romex is not why it is cheaper as was suggested by others


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

eddy current said:


> But you would also be getting a far superior product, lifestyle and bigger pay check :biggrin::biggrin:
> 
> Totally worth it
> 
> My point being that the paper in your romex is not why it is cheaper as was suggested by others


"Superior product" - possibly!

"Superior lifestyle" - I think not, I like much more freedom than you guys can even imagine and not freezing my ass off more than 3/4 of the year.

"Bigger pay check" - Can you even say that with a straight face? I doubt it!

I made no mention of why it was cheaper here.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

Better lifestyle...:vs_laugh:

Unless they're at some government office or a doctors office,
they have to walk out into the freezing weather to go 
use the Butt Hutt...eff that...I like my indoor plumbing


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

lighterup said:


> Better lifestyle...:vs_laugh:
> 
> Unless they're at some government office or a doctors office,
> they have to walk out into the freezing weather to go
> use the Butt Hutt...eff that...I like my indoor plumbing


And that laughing emoji is exactly how we look while enjoying our better lifestyle!


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Guys you have enough off topic areas so let's keep this thread on topic. Yesterday I had to remove about 80 posts....Thanks


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Guys you have enough off topic areas so let's keep this thread on topic. Yesterday I had to remove about 80 posts....Thanks


Wouldn't it have just been easier to move it to 'controversial'?

That would have been less offensive to those that posted the missing 80 posts.


Asking for a friend!


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Wouldn't it have just been easier to move it to 'controversial'?
> 
> That would have been less offensive to those that posted the missing 80 posts.
> 
> ...


That's what he did, it's called paperless nm off shoot.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Wouldn't it have just been easier to move it to 'controversial'?
> 
> That would have been less offensive to those that posted the missing 80 posts.
> 
> ...


The thread was split into 2 threads. Here are all the other posts: https://www.electriciantalk.com/f33/paperless-nm-off-shoot-269626/


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Wiresmith said:


> That's what he did, it's called paperless nm off shoot.


Thanks, I took his post a very different way. 

I get annoyed seeing posts disappear at random.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

HackWork said:


> The thread was split into 2 threads. Here are all the other posts: https://www.electriciantalk.com/f33/paperless-nm-off-shoot-269626/


Thanks Hack!


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Wouldn't it have just been easier to move it to 'controversial'?
> 
> That would have been less offensive to those that posted the missing 80 posts.
> 
> ...


Your friend must be a liberal. Let him know he has to request access back to the controversial section :biggrin:


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

emtnut said:


> Your friend must be a liberal. Let him know he has to request access back to the controversial section :biggrin:


I do have a lib friend or two, I can overlook mental problems sometimes!


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

MechanicalDVR said:


> I do have a lib friend or two, I can overlook mental problems sometimes!


I realized recently that it isn't liberalism that I despise. It's the guilty white liberal. Liberalism has some very good ideas. But the guilty white liberal is the destroyer of worlds.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

CoolWill said:


> I realized recently that it isn't liberalism that I despise. It's the guilty white liberal. Liberalism has some very good ideas. But the guilty white liberal is the destroyer of worlds.


I'm reporting you for youor racist attitude toward whites:vs_laugh:


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

CoolWill said:


> I realized recently that it isn't liberalism that I despise. It's the guilty white liberal. Liberalism has some very good ideas. But the guilty white liberal is the destroyer of worlds.


Oh so very true!


Having been raised in an urban area where Sicilians were regarded as being LTW (less than white) and having olive skin and nappy hair myself I never much cared very much for 'white' people as a kid. My non white friends never said anything when I turned very dark in the summer. Never had a black or hispanic girl tell me her dad said she couldn't date Sicilians.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Oh so very true!
> 
> 
> Having been raised in an urban area where Sicilians were regarded as being LTW (less than white) and having olive skin and nappy hair myself I never much cared very much for 'white' people as a kid. My non white friends never said anything when I turned very dark in the summer. Never had a black or hispanic girl tell me her dad said she couldn't date Sicilians.


That's more old school white conservatism than liberalism, but it still stands, because guilty white liberals are the most racist asshoIes on Earth.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

CoolWill said:


> That's more old school white conservatism than liberalism, but it still stands, because guilty white liberals are the most racist asshoIes on Earth.


I think of myself as a fiscal-conservative Constitutionalist but not even relatively close to being a proponent of 'white conservatism'.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Just because I prefer the romex without the brown paper does not make me a racist!!!

Lol


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