# Forced-Air Furnace in a "Closet"..Arc Fault required?



## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

Got a good question posed to me today....

If you have a forced-air unit in a residential dwelling, and it is placed in a "closet" on a dedicated circuit, would an arc-fault breaker be required? 

The FAU is cord and plug connected, not hardwired. 

This is under 2008 Code cycle. 

Vote above and post your reasons for your answer please. I'll reveal my vote and position later.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Only the lighting outlet would be arc- fault protected..


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

mxslick said:


> Got a good question posed to me today....
> 
> If you have a forced-air unit in a residential dwelling, and it is placed in a "closet" on a dedicated circuit, would an arc-fault breaker be required?
> 
> ...


although 210.12 B lists closets, that is for "outlets". A hard wired furnace is not an outlet, it is a wired in place heating unit (art 422), there is no outlet (unless you provided one). I believe that the outlet provided for maintainance, even if it is incorporated in the unit, will have to be fed by afci.

jmo


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

wildleg, thank you, you reminded me of a very important detail.....

The FAU is cord and plug wired, not hardwired. 

I will edit the OP......


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

wildleg said:


> although 210.12 B lists closets, that is for "outlets". A hard wired furnace is not an outlet, it is a wired in place heating unit (art 422), there is no outlet (unless you provided one).


Even hardwired equipment is connected to an outlet.



> *Outlet.* A point on the wiring system at which current is
> taken to supply utilization equipment.





> 210.12 Arc-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection.
> (A) Dwelling Units. *All 120-volt, single phase, 15- and
> 20-ampere branch circuits supplying outlets installed in
> dwelling unit* family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms,
> ...


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Dam.. so that means even a gas or oil burner needs AFCI protection..


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> Dam.. so that means even a gas or oil burner needs AFCI protection..


Depending on were it is sure.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

unless it is a 30A ckt


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

mxslick said:


> Got a good question posed to me today....
> 
> If you have a forced-air unit in a residential dwelling, and it is placed in a "closet" on a dedicated circuit, would an arc-fault breaker be required?
> 
> ...


We all know that arc faults don't happen behind closed doors.:blink: Even if the circuit were cord connected, a switch should be installed controlling the receptacle.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

wildleg said:


> unless it is a 30A ckt


That would be a hell of an oil burner for a home.:jester:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

mxslick said:


> Got a good question posed to me today....
> 
> If you have a forced-air unit in a residential dwelling, and it is placed in a "closet" on a dedicated circuit, would an arc-fault breaker be required?
> 
> ...


.....................................



> 2011 NEC..
> 
> *210.12 Arc-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection.*
> (A) Dwelling Units. All 120-volt, single phase, 15- and
> ...


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

BBQ said:


> That would be a hell of an oil burner for a home.:jester:


(just trying to think of ways to not install an afci breaker lol)


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Did not see post 5...

sorry BBQ....:laughing:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

An outlet in a closet - yes, AFCI required.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Peter D said:


> An outlet in a closet - yes, AFCI required.


Better read the whole thread.. more to it than that.. :thumbsup:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

B4T said:


> Better read the whole thread.. more to it than that.. :thumbsup:




I did read the thread. And I gave my answer. :thumbsup:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Peter D said:


> I did read the thread. And I gave my answer. :thumbsup:


:yawn:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

B4T said:


> :yawn:


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

[QUOTE="RIVETER" Even if the circuit were cord connected, a switch should be installed controlling the receptacle.[/QUOTE]

You'd be disappointed in California, every furnace is cord and plug connected with no switch. About 60% of them are installed with the furnace so close to the plug it's virtually inaccessible. I learned to do furnaces's hard piped with a sp switch for service. Now they get the same treatment as a disposal.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Bkessler said:


> You'd be disappointed in California, every furnace is cord and plug connected with no switch. About 60% of them are installed with the furnace so close to the plug it's virtually inaccessible. I learned to do furnaces's hard piped with a sp switch for service. Now they get the same treatment as a disposal.


That's how furnaces are done here, too (hard piped). The first time I saw a cord connected furnace in CA, I thought it was the strangest thing I had ever seen.


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

Peter D said:


> That's how furnaces are done here, too (hard piped). The first time I saw a cord connected furnace in CA, I thought it was the strangest thing I had ever seen.


Coincidently I replaced my furnace cord tonight. It was all dry and cracked and it got cold for ca so my wife wanted me to turn on the furnace. We hadn't had it on yet since we moved in in march. Everything in my house is original and broken.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Bkessler said:


> You'd be disappointed in California, every furnace is cord and plug connected with no switch. About 60% of them are installed with the furnace so close to the plug it's virtually inaccessible. I learned to do furnaces's hard piped with a sp switch for service. Now they get the same treatment as a disposal.


I am not saying that I see it a lot here; It's just what I do...cord and plug that is, plus switch. It seems to me to be safer when a portable generator is used during a storm outage.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

RIVETER said:


> I am not saying that I see it a lot here; It's just what I do...cord and plug that is, plus switch. It seems to me to be safer when a portable generator is used during a storm outage.


Huh?:blink::blink:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

To Drama Queen: An AFCI is required in this situation.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Huh?:blink::blink:


8766 posts and you don't know what I am talking about?


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

Peter D said:


> To Drama Queen: An AFCI is required in this situation.


To the master Hackwagon: :laughing:

Now to throw a wrench into the live panel:

Let's say this is new construction;
The FAU location is called out on the plans, but it is NOT called a _*closet..*_;


Now what do you think?



RIVETER said:


> 8766 posts and you don't know what I am talking about?


Hell half the time no one knows what you're talking about.:laughing::laughing:


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

I am not sure but for few super cold states if you have FAU in the closet or mini uility room if have cord et plug yeah it will have AFCI unless it is stated otherwise with state or local code requirement.

I know in France it will be on RCD without a question however it will have it own circuit but in state of Wisconsin it kinda toss up depending on which Métro you are in.

Hard wired FAU useally do not need the AFCI unless otherwise stated in their codé.

Merci,
Marc


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## mgraw (Jan 14, 2011)

I would say AFCI is required. I also agree with RIVETER, there should be a switch installed as well. I know of at least 12 brands that require a switch(or other means of disconnect) to be installed if local code allows cord and plug to be used.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

mgraw said:


> I would say AFCI is required. I also agree with RIVETER, there should be a switch installed as well. I know of at least 12 brands that require a switch(or other means of disconnect) to be installed if local code allows cord and plug to be used.


Please explain why two NEC recognized disconnects are needed.

Seems ridiculous to me.


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## mgraw (Jan 14, 2011)

BBQ said:


> Please explain why two NEC recognized disconnects are needed.
> 
> Seems ridiculous to me.


 The main reason is so that when the unit is disconnected from power the unit will still be bonded to ground. This is important for the HVAC tech when working on the unit.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

mgraw said:


> The main reason is so that when the unit is disconnected from power the unit will still be bonded to ground. This is important for the HVAC tech when working on the unit.


If it is disconnected from sources of power why is grounding important?


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

mxslick said:


> Now to throw a wrench into the live panel:
> 
> Let's say this is new construction;
> The FAU location is called out on the plans, but it is NOT called a _*closet..*_;
> ...



What I think, what anyone here thinks means nothing.

What does the AHJ think?




> 210.12 Arc-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection.
> (A) Dwelling Units. All 120-volt, single phase, 15- and
> 20-ampere branch circuits supplying outlets installed in
> dwelling unit family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms,
> ...


IMO the CMP left the AHJ some room to decide.


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## mgraw (Jan 14, 2011)

BBQ said:


> If it is disconnected from sources of power why is grounding important?


 The circuit boards can be damaged from static electricity. One manufacture states in their service manual if the ground is broken when the unit power is disconnected the service tech needs to locate another grounded source before working on the unit.


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

Bkessler said:


> You'd be disappointed in California, every furnace is cord and plug connected with no switch. About 60% of them are installed with the furnace so close to the plug it's virtually inaccessible. I learned to do furnaces's hard piped with a sp switch for service. Now they get the same treatment as a disposal.


Does California have an amendment to the NEC that permits furnaces to be cord and plug connected?

I have yet to see a furnace that meets the requirements of 400.7(A)(8).

Chris


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

mgraw said:


> The circuit boards can be damaged from static electricity. One manufacture states in their service manual if the ground is broken when the unit power is disconnected the service tech needs to locate another grounded source before working on the unit.


 
With a cord and a receptacle, why would you need a disconnect switch ? 


I've haven't heard anything here about having to use Arc Faults on FAU yet.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

raider1 said:


> Does California have an amendment to the NEC that permits furnaces to be cord and plug connected?
> 
> I have yet to see a furnace that meets the requirements of 400.7(A)(8).
> 
> Chris


In 25 years, all my FAU's are cord, and receptacle. Maybe a local code.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Did I mention that an AFCI is required in this situation?


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

Peter D said:


> Did I mention that an AFCI is required in this situation?


 

:yawn: Since there is no such thing as new construction anymore around here, I'll have to see if they enforce it.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

dronai said:


> :yawn: Since there is no such thing as new construction anymore around here, I'll have to see if they enforce it.


The 2011 NEC requires them when adding to existing circuits. :laughing:


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

BBQ said:


> The 2011 NEC requires them when adding to existing circuits. :laughing:


I don't do that much anymore either. Remodels are almost at a halt too. 

The thing that usually saves us with ARC's for existing residences are the MWBC's (2008) Usually the inspectors will not enforce it, unless the panel is accessible.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

dronai said:


> In 25 years, all my FAU's are cord, and receptacle. Maybe a local code.


I bet it is just the MO of how it was done in the area and has been accepted thru the years.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Although I disagree, louisa county does not consider outlets in a closet to be in the bedroom. Hence a closet light does not have to go off with the afci


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I bet it is just the MO of how it was done in the area and has been accepted thru the years.


Yes, I highly doubt there is anything that addresses cord connected furnaces there. But CA is a big state with millions of dwelling units so it's not a small issue, so I don't want to say that for certain.


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## jmsmith (Sep 10, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I bet it is just the MO of how it was done in the area and has been accepted thru the years.


Dennis-
At one time, wasn't a cord and plug connection considered to be an accepted disconnecting means? As for the closet issue, only a "clothes closet" is even part of def. section. Looks to me like there is a whole lot being left up to the AHJ to decide here to me! :blink:

Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

jmsmith said:


> At one time, wasn't a cord and plug connection considered to be an accepted disconnecting means?


It still is, but the NEC requires the appliance be listed for cord and plug connection.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

BBQ said:


> Even hardwired equipment is connected to an outlet.


I dont agree with that. Its just a junction box for hard wired equipment. So every junction box is now an outlet? A junction box with capped off conductors in it is not an outlet.


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

TOOL_5150 said:


> I dont agree with that. Its just a junction box for hard wired equipment. So every junction box is now an outlet? A junction box with capped off conductors in it is not an outlet.


You may want to read the NEC definition of "Outlet".:thumbsup:

"Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment."

A j-box supplying a furnace is most definitely an "Outlet".

Chris


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

TOOL_5150 said:


> I dont agree with that. Its just a junction box for hard wired equipment.


You think I am making things up?:laughing:



> So every junction box is now an outlet?


Everyone that power is taken from to supply utilization equipment.



> A junction box with capped off conductors in it is not an outlet.


I agree.


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## jmsmith (Sep 10, 2011)

BBQ said:


> It still is, but the NEC requires the appliance be listed for cord and plug connection.


Thanks... Still trying to get my head wrapped around how NEC applies on the residential end...

Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

If it is 120 volts 15 or 20 amperes I would see it as a AC unit and unfortunately yes, I would AFCI it.


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## mgraw (Jan 14, 2011)

dronai said:


> With a cord and a receptacle, why would you need a disconnect switch ?


 Because some brands require in their installation instructions a switch or other means of disconnect if you use cord and plug.


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

mgraw said:


> Because some brands require in their installation instructions a switch or other means of disconnect if you use cord and plug.


Got a link to a furnace manufacture that has instructions permitting cord and plug connection?

Chris


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## eric7379 (Jan 5, 2010)

Don't have my code books with me at home, so I voted "not sure, but would anyway".

After reading through some of the posts, I would say yes that it is required.


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## mgraw (Jan 14, 2011)

raider1 said:


> Got a link to a furnace manufacture that has instructions permitting cord and plug connection?
> 
> Chris


 I don't know of any manufacturer that allows cord and plug. I also don't know of any manufacturer that does not allow cord and plug. All manufacturers I know of say follow local code or the NEC. But since some local codes do allow cord and plug some brands are giving instructions to add a switch or other means of disconnect where cord and plug is allowed.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

A lot of the fau's I see, are in the attics, so what's the code there ? Arc or not ?


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

BBQ said:


> You think I am making things up?:laughing:


Sometimes I wish you were.:jester:




BBQ said:


> Everyone that power is taken from to supply utilization equipment.


so hooking a range to that Jbox in the wall makes that Jobx an outlet? just making sure I understand.


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

TOOL_5150 said:


> Sometimes I wish you were.:jester:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yep, hard wiring a range to a J-box would make the J-box and outlet.

Chris


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

mgraw said:


> I don't know of any manufacturer that allows cord and plug. I also don't know of any manufacturer that does not allow cord and plug. All manufacturers I know of say follow local code or the NEC. But since some local codes do allow cord and plug some brands are giving instructions to add a switch or other means of disconnect where cord and plug is allowed.


400.7(A)(8) requires that the appliance be intended and identified for cord and plug connection to be connected using a cord and plug. That would require that the manufacture specifically identify that the appliance is intended for cord and plug connection.

Chris


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

dronai said:


> A lot of the fau's I see, are in the attics, so what's the code there ? Arc or not ?


No, not required in an attic.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

BBQ said:


> Please explain why two NEC recognized disconnects are needed.
> 
> Seems ridiculous to me.


You would need on outside of the room with a emergency plate/ plug and outlet for service.


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## KayJay (Jan 20, 2008)

What if the installation instructions for the listed equipment were followed as required in 110.3,B. Usually if something significant like GFCI protection, etc., is required, it would be called for in the equipment manufacturer’s instructions. If the AFCI protection isn’t specified in the installation instructions, would that possibly qualify as a field modification that may require approval by the AHJ? 
My thinking is that AFCI nuisance tripping could possibly cause a safety hazard because things like pre and post purge cycles will not be completed when power is interrupted. Could that lead to an increased CO hazard to the building occupants or possibly damage to the equipment? I’m also wondering if that could affect things like equipment warranty coverage.


*HEATING, COOLING, VENTILATING*
*AND COOKING EQUIPMENT (AAHC)*

*INSTRUCTIONS AND PRODUCT MARKINGS*
*These products are intended to be installed in accordance with the installation*
*instructions provided with the product. It is critical that the cautionary*
*statements and installation and operating instructions on the product*
*and in accompanying literature be followed.*

*FIELD MODIFICATIONS*
The UL Mark applies to the product as it is originally manufactured when
shipped from the factory. Authorized use of the UL Mark is the manufacturer’s
declaration that the product was originally manufactured in accordance
with the applicable requirements. UL does not know what the effect of a
modification may have on the safety of the product or the continued validity
of the UL certification mark unless the field modifications have been specifically
investigated by UL. Unless UL investigates a modified product, UL
cannot indicate that the product continues to meet UL’s safety requirements.
The only exception for a field modification authorized by UL is when the
product has specific replacement markings. For example, a switchboard may
have specific grounding kits added in the field. The switchboard is marked
with a list of specific kit numbers that have been investigated for use in that
particular switchboard. Only grounding kits that are included on the product
have been investigated for use in that product.


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## mgraw (Jan 14, 2011)

raider1 said:


> 400.7(A)(8) requires that the appliance be intended and identified for cord and plug connection to be connected using a cord and plug. That would require that the manufacture specifically identify that the appliance is intended for cord and plug connection.
> 
> Chris


 I agree with you but some local AHJs don't. That is why some brands put requirements for an additional means of disconnect if cord and plug is allowed by local code.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Shockdoc said:


> You would need on outside of the room with a emergency plate/ plug and outlet for service.


That is only required for oil fired heaters, I bet none of these guys are talking about oil burners.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

BBQ said:


> That is only required for oil fired heaters, I bet none of these guys are talking about oil burners.


Locally it's required outside of the room and then inside for servicing on any fuel fired furnace, gas or oil


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Shockdoc said:


> Locally it's required outside of the room and then inside for servicing on any fuel fired furnace, gas or oil


Uh huh.

Bet it is not really written that way. :no:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

It just occurred to me that Viessman boilers are cord and plug connected. Of course, they come that way.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

mxslick said:


> To the master Hackwagon: :laughing:
> 
> Now to throw a wrench into the live panel:
> 
> ...


It takes "Paying " attention.


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## DiegoXJ (Jul 29, 2010)

Bkessler said:


> You'd be disappointed in California, every furnace is cord and plug connected with no switch. About 60% of them are installed with the furnace so close to the plug it's virtually inaccessible. I learned to do furnaces's hard piped with a sp switch for service. Now they get the same treatment as a disposal.



That is odd, all the ones I have seen are hardwired into those fused disconnects that fit into a handy box.


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## jmellc (Feb 25, 2011)

I really get angry over AFCI issues. I have lost a lot of respect for NEC over this. Any code is deranged that requires AFCI, yet allows backstabbing. I have seen more problems with stabbing than any other single issue. I have done a lot of service work and seen trouble with it time after time. I saw it when I did this work in the 70's. Saw it again en masse when I started electrical work again in the 90's & up til now.


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## jmellc (Feb 25, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I bet it is just the MO of how it was done in the area and has been accepted thru the years.


I have seen lots of cord & plug and a few with a switch. I have usually asked HVAC people what they needed if we did not already know.


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## mbednarik (Oct 10, 2011)

That's why I install 240v baseboard and cove heaters. Just get a 240v air handler and don't worry about it.


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## Meanie1500 (Jan 31, 2013)

I think everyone missed the biggest parts of the original post. He said going by the 2008 NEC which in the 2008 NEC only required outlets on bedrooms to be AFCI protected. So no, it wouldn't require a AFCI breaker, unless it was installed under the 2011 NEC. My only question would be the NEC requires a disconnect means to be with in site or 50 feet. So wouldn't a switch be required in a closet for the FAU, or is the cord considered a means of disconnect.


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## jmellc (Feb 25, 2011)

Meanie1500 said:


> I think everyone missed the biggest parts of the original post. He said going by the 2008 NEC which in the 2008 NEC only required outlets on bedrooms to be AFCI protected. So no, it wouldn't require a AFCI breaker, unless it was installed under the 2011 NEC. My only question would be the NEC requires a disconnect means to be with in site or 50 feet. So wouldn't a switch be required in a closet for the FAU, or is the cord considered a means of disconnect.


Yes, cord/plug is a disconnecting means.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

jmellc said:


> I really get angry over AFCI issues. I have lost a lot of respect for NEC over this. Any code is deranged that requires AFCI, yet allows backstabbing..


Then This should really make your day.....~CS~


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## Roadhouse (Oct 16, 2010)

needs a switch. all furnaces must have switches/disconnects, closet or otherwise. 

cords are illegal as far as I know, I'm an hvac tech and in 13 years have never seen one.


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## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

Meanie1500 said:


> I think everyone missed the biggest parts of the original post. He said going by the 2008 NEC which in the 2008 NEC only required outlets on bedrooms to be AFCI protected. So no, it wouldn't require a AFCI breaker, unless it was installed under the 2011 NEC. My only question would be the NEC requires a disconnect means to be with in site or 50 feet. So wouldn't a switch be required in a closet for the FAU, or is the cord considered a means of disconnect.



You are mistaken.



> (B) Dwelling Units. All 120-volt, single phase, 15- and
> 20-ampere branch circuits supplying outlets installed in
> dwelling unit family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms,
> parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sunrooms, recreation
> ...


PS...this thread is over a year old.:whistling2:


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