# Can you build your own motor control panel?



## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

nitro71 said:


> I was wondering if you can build your own motor control panel? Specificaly in the state of WA.


You can build a motor control panel anywhere.

Whether you can legally install it or not is another question :thumbsup:

It would need to be built from listed (not just recognized) stuff on site, or you can build it with whatever parts you want and get a listing agency field rep to come certify it.

Beware: not all common parts are listed, some are merely recognized (I'm thinking like, terminal blocks and stuff), so if the inspector is really anal, like they are in the Portland area, then they might not pass it.

That's what I remember from my RCW/WAC class a few months ago.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

I've been told by a few people that you can't build your own even if you use UL listed components. Trying to sort that one out.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

nitro71 said:


> I've been told by a few people that you can't build your own even if you use UL listed components. Trying to sort that one out.


Pretty sure you can, in WA at least. I don't have any code reference though, I leant my WAC/RCW book to someone and haven't gotten it back yet.

This scenario was specifically brought up and addressed at my code update class that I mentioned. Think about it; how many times have you bought a little 3-pole contactor and screwed it into a metal Hoffman box and wired a photocell to it and made it into a lighting control box? Nothing wrong with that, all the individual parts are listed.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

erics37 said:


> Pretty sure you can, in WA at least. I don't have any code reference though, I leant my WAC/RCW book to someone and haven't gotten it back yet.
> 
> This scenario was specifically brought up and addressed at my code update class that I mentioned. Think about it; how many times have you bought a little 3-pole contactor and screwed it into a metal Hoffman box and wired a photocell to it and made it into a lighting control box? Nothing wrong with that, all the individual parts are listed.


WA might differenciate between that a a motor control panel. I'm probably going to have to call on this one.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

nitro71 said:


> WA might differenciate between that a a motor control panel. I'm probably going to have to call on this one.


Wouldn't hurt :thumbup: I'm interested in the answer too.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

erics37 said:


> You can build a motor control panel anywhere.
> 
> Whether you can legally install it or not is another question :thumbsup:
> 
> ...


Eric what is that class?


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

Anyone can build a motor controller under proper engineering supervision. 
Do you want it listed after its finished?
That would be a tough call. But I see no issue with it as long as you get it right the first time around.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

360max said:


> Eric what is that class?


Revised Code of Washington / Washington Administrative Code

Some portions of those codes pertain to electrical installations and comprise the "local code amendments to the NEC." I have two Washington licenses and have to do some continuing ed code update class for them every few years.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

The NH State electrical inspector did my code update class, and he said that you can only do a field installed control panel with up to 3 devices. Anything more than that needs to be built by a listed factory. What a crock if you ask me. It ain't that hard to wire up a few motor starts and on/off/hand switches. Puh-leeeze.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Do a nice enough job, and the inspector won't know it from a prefabricated motor control panel. The devil's in the details. :thumbsup:


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

This brings up the obvious question... is an assembly of UL listed components, used in accordance with their listing and labeling, a UL listed assembly by proxy?


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> This brings up the obvious question... is an assembly of UL listed components, used in accordance with their listing and labeling, a UL listed assembly by proxy?


That's what I'm wondering. Seems like a crock that you couldn't build your own control center. I'm starting to suspect that you can't in WA. In WA everything has to be "listed" for it's purpose. IE: no tie wire supporting EMT.


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## Wireman191 (Aug 28, 2011)

nitro71 said:


> I've been told by a few people that you can't build your own even if you use UL listed components. Trying to sort that one out.


 UL listed shop has to build it in there shop. With UL listed parts, And there UL sticker on it.
Now is what I dont get is I built one out in the feild for a box convayor (48 motors) about 4 years ago and it was given the green light.:001_huh:


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Wireman191 said:


> UL listed shop has to build it in there shop. With UL listed parts, And there UL sticker on it.
> Now is what I dont get is I built one out in the feild for a box convayor (48 motors) about 4 years ago and it was given the green light.:001_huh:


Show me any manufacturing company on this planet that doesn't have at least a few industrial control panels built completely or heavily modified with in house electricians. I don't think you'll find too many.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

MDShunk said:


> This brings up the obvious question... is an assembly of UL listed components, used in accordance with their listing and labeling, a UL listed assembly by proxy?


 .... if you owned UL, would you want someone putting your stamp on their product, without paying you anything? IMO I dont think it is UL Listed by proxy either, its not your sticker (UL) to distribute without their permission/blessing, JMO


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## Theriot (Aug 27, 2011)

In marine side of things we built our own motor controls all the time. But they were installed in our own equipment. Miss it sometimes. It's really fun to start from scratch sometimes.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

360max said:


> .... if you owned UL, would you want someone putting your stamp on their product, without paying you anything? IMO I dont think it is UL Listed by proxy either, its not your sticker (UL) to distribute without their permission/blessing, JMO


I hear you, and I agree. I just think it's silly that I can take every component that is already inside a can, mount them separately, pipe them all together, and have a compliant install. If I want to take a big Hoffman box and mount all that same stuff inside one can myself, it requires a UL evaluation. Just grinds on me.


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## Theriot (Aug 27, 2011)

If you change out a part of the motor control with a different brand part doesn't that ruin the ul listing?


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> This brings up the obvious question... is an assembly of UL listed components, used in accordance with their listing and labeling, a UL listed assembly by proxy?


That's my argument.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

and it's a good one, but one can see the extreeme end of it being violated every time one takes a motor controller out of it's original can.....~CS~


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## bill39 (Sep 4, 2009)

erics37 said:


> You can build a motor control panel anywhere.
> 
> Whether you can legally install it or not is another question :thumbsup:
> 
> ...


To officially be a UL listed panel it needs a sticker w/a number that can be traced back the builder who maintains the prints and records for that panel.

To get the sticker you have to either be a UL listed panel builder or it is possible to build the panel and then have a UL inspector come to look it over and get a sticker. This is pretty pricey and UL can be kinda cranky about it.

The term "UL Approved" is not a correct term. Something is either UL listed or Recognized (has a backwards "R" next to a "U"). Recoginized components can be used within a UL listed panel. 

It costs about $3000 to take the UL class and then about $1200 annual fee after that.


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## k_buz (Mar 12, 2012)

MDShunk said:


> This brings up the obvious question... is an assembly of UL listed components, used in accordance with their listing and labeling, a UL listed assembly by proxy?


This came up for me just recently when I connected some prewired cubicles. At final inspection, he asked me where the UL listing was. Well, I hadn't thought of it because there was a large tag on the whip and I just assumed it was on that...nope it wasn't. BUT while we were talking about it, he told me that you could use all UL listed parts, but the system would not be automatically UL listed.

(We ended up finding the UL listing on the backside of the wireway cover.)


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

Some folks take UL listing waaaaayyyy too seriously. For example, bailing wire isn't listed for EMT support so fail. Surely common sense must prevail somewhere?


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## freeagnt54 (Aug 6, 2008)

That seems stupid, what's next we can't build 2,3,4,5 gang switch boxes with out ordering custom ones from the factory with your dimmers, single poles and 3ways packaged together.

As a licensed electrician you should be able to take any listed material and build what's needed as long as everything being used as its listing intended and code compliant.


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## bill39 (Sep 4, 2009)

freeagnt54 said:


> That seems stupid, what's next we can't build 2,3,4,5 gang switch boxes with out ordering custom ones from the factory with your dimmers, single poles and 3ways packaged together.
> 
> As a licensed electrician you should be able to take any listed material and build what's needed as long as everything being used as its listing intended and code compliant.


In our area not every panel needs to be UL Listed. We build a lot of control panels and only build it to the UL standard and put the UL sticker on one when required by the customer specs.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

MDShunk said:


> I hear you, and I agree. I just think it's silly that I can take every component that is already inside a can, mount them separately, pipe them all together, and have a compliant install. * If I want to take a big Hoffman box and mount all that same stuff inside one can myself, it requires a UL evaluation. Just grinds on me*.


I agree with you on that


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

InPhase277 said:


> Some folks take UL listing waaaaayyyy too seriously. For example, bailing wire isn't listed for EMT support so fail. Surely common sense must prevail somewhere?


where does it say 3/4 emt straps have to be listed?


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

freeagnt54 said:


> That seems stupid, what's next we can't build 2,3,4,5 gang switch boxes with out ordering custom ones from the factory with your dimmers, single poles and 3ways packaged together.
> 
> As a licensed electrician you should be able to take any listed material and build what's needed as long as everything being used as its listing intended and code compliant.


you can do that, start your own listing/evaluation business, have some stickers made up (maybe call it LU Listed). No one says it has to be listed by UL,........... just be on the up and up.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

360max said:


> where does it say 3/4 emt straps have to be listed?


Who said they did?


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## 76nemo (Aug 13, 2008)

That's hogwash.

How can every MCP be built and survive through all the changes we go through in machinery?

Do we have to call for listing every time we modify it? I know some places call for it, but that is horsesh*t, excuse my french.......


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

Talked with a inspector today and from what I gathered you can make your own motor controller. Just has to use UL listed parts and meet the requirements of 430. I'd still check if I was going to invest serious money in it as he was at lunch and I was driving. Not sure I got the complete story.


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

Following is a picture of a custom motor starter I made for a theatre near me. The have a Wurlitzer pipe organ with two blowers. After a power problem that resulted in both motors burning up (single-phased when POCO transformer failed) with rewinding costing over $2000 they asked me for help. :thumbsup: I designed and built this back in 1999.










Service is 240v open delta with a stinger leg. 

Upper left is where power comes in from a fused disconnect. Just below the input terminal block you can see the inline fuseholders for the line pilot lamps on the front door. Middle left is the control transformer and below that is the 24vdc power supply filter/regulator. Bottom left is the relay wired as a start latch and the time delay relay which starts the second blower after a delay. Terminals to the three button start/stop stations are at the very bottom. Noitice anything wrong in that lower left corner? :001_huh:

Top center are fuses for the main blower, below that the contactor and the ABB electronic overload relay. Power for the organ's rectifier (a 28vdc 25 amp power supply, it provides voltage for the solenoids on the individual pipes) is tapped off of this blower's contactor. 

Top right are fuses for the secondary blower, the contactor and ABB overload relays. 

The LV wiring for the contactor coils (24vdc) is routed under the plate to help provide physical separation from the line voltage wiring. 

This starter has provided excellent service for 13 years now with only one breakdown (the time delay relay failed) and has protected the motors for over a dozen times with no damage to the motors, contactors or even any blown fuses. 

The front door has indicators for power in, motor run 1 and 2 and overload trip 1 and 2, as well as a local Start/Stop buttons.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

How about disconnecting means? Seperate disconnect or close enough to the breaker or?


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

The disconnect is just to the left of this starter, outside the pic I took. 

Before I put this in, every time they wanted to use the organ they had to come downstairs and turn on three separate disconnects to get things going, then come back down to shut it all down. Now they can start/stop from the pipe chambers, at the organ control computer, or at the organ console itself. 

Side note: In the days when the organ was first built, there were upwards of 3,000+ individual wires (all the same size and color) running from the organ console to the pipe chambers. Back in the late 70's early 80's a company called Devtronix came up with a computer system that uses interface boards and a 50 conductor ribbon cable between the console and the pipe chambers. The computer can record and playback any performace with all the expression and nuances of the organist's playing.


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## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> This brings up the obvious question... is an assembly of UL listed components, used in accordance with their listing and labeling, a UL listed assembly by proxy?


If I use a UL listed L16, a UL listed anti-short, a UL listed 1110, a UL listed 15a receptacle and a UL listed 1110 steel cover, that's the difference? I'm still taking various listed parts and putting them together.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

You have to be careful if the panel or MCC you are building is being installed in a facility covered by OSHA. The following is from an OSHA letter of interpretation.


> ...Based on the facts in the above paragraph, it appears your control equipment would meet our definition of electrical equipment. As such, please be advised that electrical equipment must be approved by a Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratory (NRTL) in accordance with the OSHA requirement at 29 CFR 1910.303(a). In addition, NRTLs must approve this equipment using US recognized test standards, based on requirements under 29 CFR 1910.7. As a result, electrical equipment required to be NRTL approved and used in the US and its territories must conform to US recognized test standards. ...


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> You have to be careful if the panel or MCC you are building is being installed in a facility covered by OSHA. The following is from an OSHA letter of interpretation.


Phuck em.


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