# What do you guys charge for troubleshooting?



## RJS3rd (Sep 17, 2009)

I do extensive work in Philly mainly dealing with row homes and go on TS calls all the time. We charge a flat 300 for non-obvious problems (tripped breaker etc..) and if we cant find the actual problem (buried in a wall) I can usually run a line to the the afflicted part of the circuit and bypass the problem area. Usually.

It might take an hour, might take a day as my boss does require we honestly try to fix the problem before we just circumvent the problem. There have been times where a T&M charge would have been more practical though.

Im working with old Philly Rowhomes...50-75 yrs old, cloth covered romex or knob and tube (or worse).

Is it more prevalent for a flat fee or Time and Materials?


----------



## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

We stilll do hourly (85) and rarely make any money on troubleshoot/service calls.


----------



## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

No way in hell I could charge a flat $300 for a service call. T&M is the only way to go around here. 

You have to do a LOT of service calls to justify charging a flat fee. You will rip people off much of the time and lose your shirt some of the time. 
I see absolutely no point in making an easy call customer pay for part of the hard call customer's job.

Service call charge for the first half hour and hourly after that.


----------



## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Speedy Petey said:


> No way in hell I could charge a flat $300 for a service call. T&M is the only way to go around here.
> 
> You have to do a LOT of service calls to justify charging a flat fee. You will rip people off much of the time and lose your shirt some of the time.
> I see absolutely no point in making an easy call customer pay for part of the hard call customer's job.
> ...


 
Yep we are 80 per hour on service calls. That gets you an hour maybe hour and a half depending on how I feel.


----------



## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

Speedy Petey said:


> No way in hell I could charge a flat $300 for a service call. T&M is the only way to go around here.
> 
> You have to do a LOT of service calls to justify charging a flat fee. You will rip people off much of the time and lose your shirt some of the time.
> I see absolutely no point in making an easy call customer pay for part of the hard call customer's job.
> ...


That is how I do it. Flat rate only works for the cut and dry stuff.


----------



## MisterCMK (Jul 5, 2009)

We are $115/hr plus a truck charge during business hours. We do low-voltage communications.


----------



## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

I do 1.5 hrs charge for the first 1/2 hour. This is a "service call" rate. This way I don't have to mess with trip charges, fuel surcharges, truck charges, etc. 
Personally I think it looks better. Then again, I rarely travel more than 30-40 minutes away.


----------



## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

I've been doing a 2 hour minimum for troubleshooting. Then if it's needed a flat rate to make the necessary repairs. Speed and ease is the key.


----------



## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

Service call is $75. 
T/S is $100 bucks an hour. 
I generally hate t/s calls, but more work can come from it so you do what you gotta do.


----------



## Mr. Sparkle (Jan 27, 2009)

I used to charge $75/hr 2 hour minimum and got so sick of people beating me over the head that I restructured how I bill certain calls and raised my rate a bit on occasion because hey wtf they are gonna do it anyway no mater the price, but I do not do a lot of service to be honest.


----------



## faber307 (Jan 22, 2007)

Speedy Petey said:


> No way in hell I could charge a flat $300 for a service call. T&M is the only way to go around here.
> 
> You have to do a LOT of service calls to justify charging a flat fee. You will rip people off much of the time and lose your shirt some of the time.
> I see absolutely no point in making an easy call customer pay for part of the hard call customer's job.
> ...



maybe quote them the flat fee to keep THEM honest. Then charge the hourly rate if it comes out less. HERO


----------



## faber307 (Jan 22, 2007)

We're 100% service, 2 hour minimum. 1 - 4 service calls a day, 100 mile radius. $100.00 per hour. some customers want the trip charge listed. others I simply list "labor"

We make more money doing service per hour than we could ever get on projects in this economy.


----------



## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

faber307 said:


> maybe quote them the flat fee to keep THEM honest. Then charge the hourly rate if it comes out less. HERO


Yea and then when they call someone else because you told them $300 OR
What if the flat rate wasn't enough?

Flat rate and Troubleshooting residential service calls don't go well together.

I could care less about being a HERO I want to make money


----------



## Mr. Sparkle (Jan 27, 2009)

faber307 said:


> We're 100% service, 2 hour minimum. 1 - 4 service calls a day, 100 mile radius. $100.00 per hour. some customers want the trip charge listed. others I simply list "labor"
> 
> We make more money doing service per hour than we could ever get on projects in this economy.


How many men in the truck?


----------



## jbrookers (Dec 7, 2008)

If you don't make money during service calls, there is a problem. Too many electricians give away service calls even though its the one time when a customer actually NEEDS your services. 

We flat rate. Either to find the problem or to find and fix the problem. I wouldn't want to pay by the hour for troubleshooting by the mechanic or HVAC guy. I would want to know upfront whats it going to cost.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

jbrookers said:


> If you don't make money during service calls, there is a problem. Too many electricians give away service calls even though its the one time when a customer actually NEEDS your services.........


Not necessarily always true, though.

If an electrician isn't set up for service calls, and doesn't market his services to that type of market, he may find himself doing TS calls rather infrequently, and mostly for exisiting customers. If that's the case, you may find it beneficial to consider the occasional TS call a loss-leader item to keep your old customers happy.

But if you're marketing service calls, then you need to price your services to provide a profit.


----------



## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

Exactly.
This also is an occasion for a "not to exceed" quote if your client gets fussy about paying hourly for T/S. There are multiple ways to go about it, I still toy with my methods, nothing is a straight up rule; more benificial for the one man shows.


----------



## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Not necessarily always true, though.
> 
> If an electrician isn't set up for service calls, and doesn't market his services to that type of market, he may find himself doing TS calls rather infrequently, and mostly for exisiting customers. If that's the case, you may find it beneficial to consider the occasional TS call a loss-leader item to keep your old customers happy.
> 
> But if you're marketing service calls, then you need to price your services to provide a profit.


 
I like being an electrician but what I enjoy about my job we do a big variety of jobs. Remodels,new,commercial,service calls,some low voltage and I like t/s. I make good money on them and it is a break from the harder work. I dont think anyone here has a flat rate.They may but Ive never heard of anyone.


----------



## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

jbrookers said:


> I would want to know upfront whats it going to cost.


How do know what it is going to take though? Sure, we have our experience to help us estimate, but every call is different. 

I just did a no lights call that was a burned up receptacle. I found it in about 15 minutes. What if the device was in a different room, behind a large piece of furniture. Would you keep looking for the problem, or would you isolate the circuit and re-feed? What if the house was on a slab, or had a finished basement? Would you do damage to hack in a solution, or take the time to find the real problem and do it right? 

Like I said, the 15 minute lady is overpaying so the 2.5 hour t-shoot doesn't lose money. Sure, I am in this to make money and not be a hero, but I personally don't feel right about that.


----------



## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Speedy Petey said:


> How do know what it is going to take though? Sure, we have our experience to help us estimate, but every call is different.
> 
> I just did a no lights call that was a burned up receptacle. I found it in about 15 minutes. What if the device was in a different room, behind a large piece of furniture. Would you keep looking for the problem, or would you isolate the circuit and re-feed? What if the house was on a slab, or had a finished basement? Would you do damage to hack in a solution, or take the time to find the real problem and do it right?
> 
> Like I said, the 15 minute lady is overpaying so the 2.5 hour t-shoot doesn't lose money. Sure, I am in this to make money and not be a hero, but I personally don't feel right about that.


 
I tell them that usally I know what is wrong or have a good idea if its going to be expensive by the first hour ($80 to $85) And its true if I havent found it within an hour I usally have a good idea and can quote them what I think(or hope after you name a price) it will take.
And for my regular customers before I ride and charge a service call for receptacles not working I tell them to look for gfi's and call me back. Customers remember when they are treated right and never forget if they arent.


----------



## Innovative (Jan 26, 2010)

300 dollar flat rate is insane......our service trucks avg 6 to 7 service calls each day, most calls with drive time are 1.25 hours or less. Residential rate is 84.50, Commercial rate is 92.50, that rate is for a truck with a mechanic and experienced helper. All service type work should be TM. Service work is always a money maker and provides day to day cash flow, as it is usually paid at completion of the job. Our service dept is our second most profitiable area, behind marine.


----------



## jbrookers (Dec 7, 2008)

Speedy Petey said:


> How do know what it is going to take though? Sure, we have our experience to help us estimate, but every call is different.
> 
> I just did a no lights call that was a burned up receptacle. I found it in about 15 minutes. What if the device was in a different room, behind a large piece of furniture. Would you keep looking for the problem, or would you isolate the circuit and re-feed? What if the house was on a slab, or had a finished basement? Would you do damage to hack in a solution, or take the time to find the real problem and do it right?
> 
> Like I said, the 15 minute lady is overpaying so the 2.5 hour t-shoot doesn't lose money. Sure, I am in this to make money and not be a hero, but I personally don't feel right about that.


Sure, there is a risk of losing money on a flat rate call. You could lose some money. However, the customer never overpays. How could they? They pay for a solution, not your time. Time is relative, solutions are not.


----------



## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

Innovative said:


> 300 dollar flat rate is insane......our service trucks avg 6 to 7 service calls each day, most calls with drive time are 1.25 hours or less. Residential rate is 84.50, Commercial rate is 92.50, that rate is for a truck with a mechanic and experienced helper. All service type work should be TM. Service work is always a money maker and provides day to day cash flow, as it is usually paid at completion of the job. Our service dept is our second most profitiable area, behind marine.


What type of work do you do, where one truck averages 7 different calls a day......average......?

At a average travel time of @ > 1.25/hr each, that leaves maybe 30 seconds a service call on a great day.

Is my math off?


----------



## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

I think that's calls including drive time.


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Depends on where it is, what it is and what time it is.

I LOVE TROUBLE SHOOTING PROBLEMS, the more complicated and confusing the more I love it. For years that is all I did.


----------



## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

BuzzKill said:


> I think that's calls including drive time.


 
Still, that is efficient as hell.

Is this resi service?

6-7 calls a day....someone is marketing very well, and doing it very cheaply it would seem too.

I can't put two guys in a truck for under $135/hr for anything, anymore.


----------



## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

Dnkldorf said:


> Still, that is efficient as hell.
> 
> Is this resi service?
> 
> ...


 that's allot of calls.
$150/hr for two guys is more like breaking even.


----------



## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

brian john said:


> Depends on where it is, what it is and what time it is.
> 
> I LOVE TROUBLE SHOOTING PROBLEMS, the more complicated and confusing the more I love it. For years that is all I did.


 
Commerical building t-shooting...not so much.

Give me a machine in pieces, on a bunch of pallets, show me a picture of what it should look like and how it should work......I'm in heaven.


----------



## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

jbrookers said:


> However, the customer never overpays. How could they? They pay for a solution, not your time. Time is relative, solutions are not.


Sorry. $300 for a 1/2 call IS overcharging IMO. 
I would not get the repeat work I get if I charged like that in my small town kind of area. Maybe in a bigger city you can overcharge people all day and not have to reply on repeat work and word of mouth. I do.


----------



## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

Speedy Petey said:


> Sorry. $300 for a 1/2 call IS overcharging IMO.
> I would not get the repeat work I get if I charged like that in my small town kind of area. Maybe in a bigger city you can overcharge people all day and not have to reply on repeat work and word of mouth. I do.


How are you defining... overcharging?

There is charging under fraudulent pretenses or something, I guess, but what defines financial overcharging?

If I didn't want a job and threw out a big number.......and I get it....is that overcharging?

If I tell someone that it will be $5K to replace that GFI receptacle, and they say go ahead......is that overcharging?


----------



## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

I guess it is what I would consider if I had to have someone come in and do something similar in my own home. 

Price is all relative. Maybe $300 for 1/2 is cheap in So Cal or some place like that?


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

A fair price is what a customer and the vendor agree upon for what ever work is being completed and there is repeat business from a high enough of percentage of customers to know they are not being left with a bad taste in their mouth.


----------



## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

brian john said:


> A fair price is what a customer and the vendor agree upon for what ever work is being completed and there is repeat business from a high enough of percentage of customers to know they are not being with a bad taste in their mouth.


 
That's very good.


----------



## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

brian john said:


> Depends on where it is, what it is and what time it is.
> 
> I LOVE TROUBLE SHOOTING PROBLEMS, the more complicated and confusing the more I love it. For years that is all I did.


Yeah, I agree, I love a challenge, especially figuring out which 8' fluorescent ballast in a 40' ceiling is the one faulting the circuit breaker


----------



## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

Speedy Petey said:


> Sorry. $300 for a 1/2 call IS overcharging IMO.
> I would not get the repeat work I get if I charged like that in my small town kind of area. Maybe in a bigger city you can overcharge people all day and not have to reply on repeat work and word of mouth. I do.


:thumbup: This is why I spend ZERO money on advertising


----------



## faber307 (Jan 22, 2007)

robnj772 said:


> Yea and then when they call someone else because you told them $300 OR
> What if the flat rate wasn't enough?
> 
> Flat rate and Troubleshooting residential service calls don't go well together.
> ...


We never flat rate


----------



## faber307 (Jan 22, 2007)

Mr. Sparkle said:


> How many men in the truck?


Got me there.
Me and apprentice 90% of the time
$75.00 alone.
1 hour minimum
1 hour truck charge in addition on every call


----------



## faber307 (Jan 22, 2007)

jwjrw said:


> I tell them that usally I know what is wrong or have a good idea if its going to be expensive by the first hour ($80 to $85) And its true if I havent found it within an hour I usally have a good idea and can quote them what I think(or hope after you name a price) it will take.
> And for my regular customers before I ride and charge a service call for receptacles not working I tell them to look for gfi's and call me back. Customers remember when they are treated right and never forget if they arent.


I try to walk residential customers through minor problems as well.


----------



## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

faber307 said:


> We never flat rate


Flat rate is the way to go,but just not for trouble shooting


----------



## faber307 (Jan 22, 2007)

robnj772 said:


> :thumbup: This is why I spend ZERO money on advertising


I took the lettering off my trucks! no more Robin Hood Electric!


----------



## faber307 (Jan 22, 2007)

robnj772 said:


> Flat rate is the way to go,but just not for trouble shooting


I've heard you can come out ahead on flat rate. I have not been comfortable with it.


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Magnettica said:


> Yeah, I agree, I love a challenge, especially figuring out which 8' fluorescent ballast in a 40' ceiling is the one faulting the circuit breaker


I pretty much do not trouble shoot light fixtures, mostly grounding issues and why GFP (or the associated main CB) is tripping.


----------



## Innovative (Jan 26, 2010)

Dnkldorf said:


> What type of work do you do, where one truck averages 7 different calls a day......average......?
> 
> At a average travel time of @ > 1.25/hr each, that leaves maybe 30 seconds a service call on a great day.
> 
> Is my math off?


That is a mix of commercial (Walmart, Sams Clubs, Gas Stations) usually ballast issues or breaker replacements and residential, replacing ballasts, devices, GFCI issues. My service guys work 4 x 9 hour days and 1 x 6 hour day. The guys on the truck are usually paid 35.oo per hour combined and drive a 2009 F350 KUV. Our service dept has never not made money. We service alot of the big chains and Auto dealerships. The key to service is to do a large volume and do it efficently. Our rates are set at the very top end of the scale in the area. We loose some work, because we are not the lowest rate, but in the overall scheme of things, our prices are the lowest. We stock almost everything to get the job done, where most service trucks in the area use the supply house to stock their material.

Avg Day 1 truck Billed: 1230.00 less wages 315.00 less taxes, ins, unemploy, comp 72.00 fuel 30.00 overhead 148.00 other expence 30.00 materials 350.00 that leaves profit of 285.00 per service truck per day.


----------



## SparkYZ (Jan 20, 2010)

For resi calls, if it's something we can easily find really quick like a bad receptacle, switch, or breaker, we'll charge the service call fee and the T&M to fix the part. If it's someting more in-depth we charge a "Fault Find" fee for 265$. If when we find the problem its something small and stupid, it's included in the fee. If it's a big problem that requires a big repair, or tearing a wall open, etc, then it's extra, depending on what it is. We usually profit this way, and never really stuck it to the customer by doing this.


----------



## MIGS Electric (Nov 30, 2021)

robnj772 said:


> Yea and then when they call someone else because you told them $300 OR
> What if the flat rate wasn't enough?
> 
> Flat rate and Troubleshooting residential service calls don't go well together.
> ...


*I charge $350 for a basic find and fix troubleshoot and if I can't find it within 4hrs the price goes up Most I've charged was $855 for a more in depth troubleshoot is what I call it. You just need to know how to keep a clients trust. As long as you keep them in the loop and kick em with some knowledge and explain exactly what they are paying for, meaning the quality of work that you do and the knowledge that you are equipt with you can charge what you're worth. Don't ever underbid yourself. Knowledge is power.*


----------



## Quickservice (Apr 23, 2020)

I have been a "Time and Materials" guy (For troubleshooting) forever. Has worked great 99.5% of the time. I would have to write a book on here to explain the wierd instances that caused the .5%.


----------



## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

MIGS Electric said:


> *I charge $350 for a basic find and fix troubleshoot and if I can't find it within 4hrs the price goes up Most I've charged was $855 for a more in depth troubleshoot is what I call it. You just need to know how to keep a clients trust. As long as you keep them in the loop and kick em with some knowledge and explain exactly what they are paying for, meaning the quality of work that you do and the knowledge that you are equipt with you can charge what you're worth. Don't ever underbid yourself. Knowledge is power.*


Probably looks like a horrendous amount compared to what guys were charging 12 years ago.


----------



## Quickservice (Apr 23, 2020)

MIGS Electric said:


> *You just need to know how to keep a clients trust. As long as you keep them in the loop and kick em with some knowledge and explain exactly what they are paying for, meaning the quality of work that you do and the knowledge that you are equipt with you can charge what you're worth. Don't ever underbid yourself. Knowledge is power.*


Super advice! I should have added that part to my post.


----------



## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Wow thanks for this new imput


----------



## kbatku (Oct 18, 2011)

We had a place in town where the boss gave his workers 1/2 hour to find the problem. If they couldn't they would just leave and not bill anything. Then the homeowner would call us and we'd go around screwing outlets back in the wall and putting switches back together before we started trouble shooting

Seriously


----------



## MIGS Electric (Nov 30, 2021)

kbatku said:


> We had a place in town where the boss gave his workers 1/2 hour to find the problem. If they couldn't they would just leave and not bill anything. Then the homeowner would call us and we'd go around screwing outlets back in the wall and putting switches back together before we started trouble shooting
> 
> Seriously


Lol. Sounds like my old boss. He always knew where the problem was and just made it look like more than it was. Lol


----------



## MIGS Electric (Nov 30, 2021)

Quickservice said:


> Super advice! I should have added that part to my post.


Thank you sir 🙏


----------



## MIGS Electric (Nov 30, 2021)

Indeed, I'm sure it does. But as the economy goes up, our prices should follow. Cause it's what pays our bills bro.


----------



## Wardenclyffe (Jan 11, 2019)




----------

