# Voltage leak in ground?



## mikebusc (Oct 7, 2009)

I have a problem at a home I've worked at for years. An outdoor gas grill was installed in the back of the house. The guy installing it was sitting on the ground and got a tingle when he leaned up against it. We tested with a meter and got from between 5 volts to 14 volts from the stainless steel grill to the ground (actually putting the probe into the dirt). The grill has uf running to if for a GFI. We killed power and got the same readings. The guy installing the grill did his own readings and says he got 30 volts to ground. What happened about a year ago some people were digging and hit the direct burial feeders for the house with a pry bar. They nicked the neutral just slightly and I taped it with rubber and vinyl tape. The thing of it is the voltage gets higher the closer you get to the point underground where the nick was. I even get the same readings from the main panel ground bar to the earth, and even the gas main to earth, getting higher as you get closer to the cut wire, leading me believe that this is the source of the problem. My thought now is that maybe they hit one of the hots somwhere as well. I may be mistaken but I know you get amperage through the neutral but I didn't think you get voltage as well. Any input would be appreciated.


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## Mr. Sparkle (Jan 27, 2009)

Hire an Electrician.


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## mikebusc (Oct 7, 2009)

Funny, Anybody else?


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## Mr. Sparkle (Jan 27, 2009)

I am not trying to be funny, I am telling you that you are not going to get an answer to your question here.

This site is for Electrical Professionals only, it clearly tells you this on the page where you created your account.

Try DIYchatroom.com, I think it tells you that too....


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## mikebusc (Oct 7, 2009)

Well that's fine. I've been an electrical contractor for 14 years thank you. Really, if you don't have any constructive input stop posting to me. Now if there is anyone else out there who may be of assistance you're more than welcome.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

So after all that, you're thinking there's still a nicked wire underground? 
Then grab a shovel and start digging.


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## mikebusc (Oct 7, 2009)

Well it's kind of a strange thing but the voltage does get higher the closer you get to the point where they were digging. I thought that they may have hit another part of the cable at that time and either didn't know or didn't tell me. The thing is, now I wouldn't be able to dig and try to find it since there's a concrete patio over that spot now. I did test a theory and planted a ground rod about halfway down and bonded it to the stainless steel, took some readings and they were a lot lower. But I'm still not comfortable leaving it like that.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

now you have a nice electrolytic cell too

you seem to have answered your own question though. there is no magic trick to repairing the underground cables.


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## Mr. Sparkle (Jan 27, 2009)

mikebusc said:


> Well that's fine. I've been an electrical contractor for 14 years thank you. Really, if you don't have any constructive input stop posting to me. Now if there is anyone else out there who may be of assistance you're more than welcome.


I'm supposed to think you are an EC with 14 years experience after you come into a forum and your first post is asking about why you have stray voltage from a nicked underground feeder that you "fixed" with rubber tape?


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## mikebusc (Oct 7, 2009)

Yeah Wildleg I know. I guess my main question, which Mr. Sparkle -the idiot- seemed to have missed was can a neutral put out voltage as well as carry amperage. That way I would know if they also hit a hot. A little above Mr S's head I suppose. The technique and materials I used for the neutral is made for the underground feeders and was taught to be by a senior PECO lineman years ago. Look into it Sparkle. Expand your limited knowledge a bit. Stop trying to sound like something you're not. It makes you sound like more of an idiot.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

mikebusc said:


> ......... can a neutral put out voltage as well as carry amperage. ..........


 
Yes. Why couldn't it?


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## Mr. Sparkle (Jan 27, 2009)

You know another way to find out if they hit a hot?

Hire a qualified Electrical Contractor to dig a hole (again) and inspect all 3 (three) feeder cables for damage, then repair the damage using equipment listed for the purpose.

Sincerely,

-the idiot-


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## mikebusc (Oct 7, 2009)

I was thinking it would be pretty hard to get a difference in potential of up to 35 volts from the incoming neutral to the house ground and ground rod that's only about 5 feet away from the repair. They should be of nearly the same potential at that point.


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## mikebusc (Oct 7, 2009)

Mr. Sparkle said:


> Sincerely,
> 
> -the idiot-


You said it! 
Now grow up and stop wasting everyone's time. I put Sparkle on the ignore list. If anyone else is tired of her I'd suggest you do the same.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

mikebusc said:


> You said it!
> Now grow up and stop wasting everyone's time. I put Sparkle on the ignore list. If anyone else is tired of her I'd suggest you do the same.


 
Those who live in glasses houses shouldn't throw stones.


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

Is it me or does it seem like PA license rquirements are kinda layed back. I am far from great, and i'm sure theres 100's better on this forum but i cant see being able to pass the test i had to take and still asking this question. My opinion and I'm entitled to push it on whomever I want.

:no::no:


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## mikebusc (Oct 7, 2009)

Yes! Thank you 480.


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## mikebusc (Oct 7, 2009)

Gold, have you ever seen a potential difference of 35 volts from ground to neutral?


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## Mr. Sparkle (Jan 27, 2009)

Yeah, thanks 480! :thumbsup:

Nyuk nyuk nyuk......what a moroon.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

mikebusc said:


> Gold, have you ever seen a potential difference of 35 volts from ground to neutral?


I've seen the neutral have potential all the way up to the sytem voltage.



 mikebusc said:


> Yes! Thank you 480.


You missed the obvious slam, there.



Mr. Sparkle said:


> Yeah, thanks 480! :thumbsup:


The 'idiot' didn't, though.


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

mikebusc said:


> Gold, have you ever seen a potential difference of 35 volts from ground to neutral?


yes.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Mr. Sparkle said:


> Yeah, thanks 480! :thumbsup:
> 
> Nyuk nyuk nyuk......what a moroon.


 
You're getting the Three Stooges mixed up with Bugs Bunny.


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## Mr. Sparkle (Jan 27, 2009)

It's ok, they have nearly the same potential to ground.


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

Mr. Sparkle said:


> It's ok, they have nearly the same potential to ground.


I think it's W's fault.


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

I was going to stay out of this but, *mikebusc* if you made a splice in any underground conductors with rubber and vinyl tape Mr. Sparkle has every reason to question if you are a electrician, much less a electrical contractor. Your question of voltage on the neutral brings further suspicion on your credentials.


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## waco (Dec 10, 2007)

Curious problem and I hope you can post the solution once you find it. On the idea that both conductors were damaged, I'd think they would conduct to one another and not impose a potential on "ground." As for leakage at the neutral, "ground" really isn't "ground the world around." It is local and how local depends on many things.

It is possible you are seeing leakage from a utility primary, especially if they are buried, and the grill is incidental -- a conductor suddenly available to reveal the problem. I have seen "ground" energized by leakage from buried primaries.

Might look around and see how the house is being fed.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)




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## Selectric (Aug 18, 2009)

mikebusc said:


> The thing of it is the voltage gets higher the closer you get to the point underground where the nick was.





mikebusc said:


> The thing is, now I wouldn't be able to dig and try to find it since there's a concrete patio over that spot now.quote]
> 
> 
> I would like to know how you tested close to the nick if there is a concrete patio over the "repair"?
> ...


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## waco (Dec 10, 2007)

"The grill has uf running to if for a GFI."

"Call the POCO for a new lateral. The water has already started corroding the AL..."

AL and UF? Lateral feeding a GFI?

Read much?


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

waco said:


> "The grill has uf running to if for a GFI."
> 
> "Call the POCO for a new lateral. The water has already started corroding the AL..."
> 
> ...





mikebusc said:


> I have a problem at a home I've worked at for years. An outdoor gas grill was installed in the back of the house. *The guy installing it was sitting on the ground and got a tingle when he leaned up against it. We tested with a meter and got from between 5 volts to 14 volts from the stainless steel grill to the ground *(actually putting the probe into the dirt). The grill has uf running to if for a GFI. We killed power and got the same readings. The guy installing the grill did his own readings and says he got 30 volts to ground. *What happened about a year ago some people were digging and hit the direct burial feeders for the house with a pry bar. *They nicked the neutral just slightly and I taped it with rubber and vinyl tape. The thing of it is the voltage gets higher the closer you get to the point underground where the nick was. I even get the same readings from the main panel ground bar to the earth, and even the gas main to earth, getting higher as you get closer to the cut wire, leading me believe that this is the source of the problem. My thought now is that maybe they hit one of the hots somwhere as well. I may be mistaken but I know you get amperage through the neutral but I didn't think you get voltage as well. Any input would be appreciated.


The GFCI/UF was just installed.
The lateral damage was a year ago.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

First off the OP comes here sounding like a bad DIYer.
Then we find out he is an electrician, so I must say he makes a repair equivalent to a hack.
Next he attacks a member for pointing out the obvious (THE OP SEEMS TO BE ADIYER or a hack).
Then the OP ask a question about ground voltage measuring voltage to ground (in the Earth) once again taking his self into the realm of a hack.

So if you want to fix this problem.

1. Get a megger (search megger on this forum there is a ton of good information on how to use this device) megger spelled M-E-G-G-E-R.
Megger the conductors this will tell you if there is a cable issue.

2. If there is a cable issue either dig up the place where the possible cut occurred and PROPERLY fix it (3M under ground splice kits work great You can buy at a local supply house. 

3. Prior to making the repair megger the conductors in each direction to verify the integrity of the conductor insulation. If the readings are still low replace the feeder or rent a fault locator and make additional repairs.

4. Depending on the type of meter you were utilizing to measure the voltage to ground you were most likely reading phantom/ghost voltage.

5. In general the Earth is a poor conductor and at 120 volts I doubt very seriously you were reading anything but what I stated in item 4 above.

Megger info

http://www.omnicontrols.com/Articles/Megger-Diagnostic_Insultion_Testing.pdf

http://www.omnicontrols.com/articles/Megger-A_Stich_in_Time.pdf

Ghost/phantom voltage info

http://us.fluke.com/usen/Support/ap...(FlukeProducts)&parent=AP_FUN(FlukeProducts)#

Now a clue you came in here like an turd on wheels (as noted above), try explaining yourself without attacking other members and your answer would have been addressed earlier.


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

drsparky said:


> I was going to stay out of this but, *mikebusc* if you made a splice in any underground conductors with rubber and vinyl tape Mr. Sparkle has every reason to question if you are a electrician, much less a electrical contractor. Your question of voltage on the neutral brings further suspicion on your credentials.


 
You must have missed the part where he learned to repair feeders from a PECO lineman.


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## waco (Dec 10, 2007)

JohnJ0906 said:


> The GFCI/UF was just installed.
> The lateral damage was a year ago.



Good point. Obviously, I don't read much! I think the "underground feeder" threw me.


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

waco said:


> Good point. Obviously, I don't read much! I think the "underground feeder" threw me.


 
It could if the kick was close to your hole.


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

Underground feeder failed.replace it!


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

bobelectric said:


> Underground feeder failed.replace it!


I heard all three were black and twisted and he couldn't find which one was bad.


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

Marine ,Glad to see you have a break from your 7/12 work load.


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

bobelectric said:


> Glad to see you have a break from your 7/12 work load.


Me and the family too, I even got their names right this morning.


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