# Need Help



## Flytyingyaker (Jun 9, 2011)

I need help. I have a circuit that has a square D Qo AFCI breaker on it. I wired this house. The circuit worked fine for 2 months. Now it trips anywhere from one day to three days. No one particular thing makes it trip. The circuit has these items on it. 

USB outlet 

less then 10 receptacles 

foyer light 

2 ceiling fans 

switched GFCI 

4 outdoor sconces 

The circuit has no shared neutrals and I have pulled the entire circuit apart and checked everything. Nothing looks wrong at all. I even used the siemens arc fault testing tool and nothing showed any signs of arcing. Am I missing something?


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## The_kid (Nov 4, 2014)

Probably a bad breaker. Have you swapped it out?


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## Flytyingyaker (Jun 9, 2011)

Yes I have. When I run the test on the breaker it says there is a series or parallel arc.


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## The_kid (Nov 4, 2014)

Does the breaker trip when there is absolutely no load on the circuit?


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## The_kid (Nov 4, 2014)

Lamps, chargers, etc unplugged.


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## Flytyingyaker (Jun 9, 2011)

The_kid said:


> Lamps, chargers, etc unplugged.


No it is their office. However they now tell me it seems to happen only when the laptop charger and lamp are plugged into one particular outlet. But they have also told me it tripped with out anything plugged in to that outlet.


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

Flytyingyaker said:


> No it is their office. However they now tell me it seems to happen only when the *laptop charger and lamp* are plugged into one particular outlet. But they have also told me it tripped with out anything plugged in to that outlet.


Yes because one of the 2 is the problem, but they do not want to hear that.


What type of lamps are in all of the fixtures?

Make sure no grounds are touching neutrals.

Looks for nicks in the wires in the boxes.

Also ask them if they have a cleaning service coming in once a week or something.


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## Flytyingyaker (Jun 9, 2011)

Black Dog said:


> Yes because one of the 2 is the problem, but they do not want to hear that.
> 
> 
> What type of lamps are in all of the fixtures?
> ...


They are regular incandescent lamps. No cleaning service. No wires touching no nicenice I have tore of the entire circuit apartment


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

Black Dog said:


> Also ask them if they have a cleaning service coming in once a week or something.


Good one Leo! I wouldn't have though about that one.


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

Flytyingyaker said:


> They are regular incandescent lamps. No cleaning service. No wires touching no nicenice I have tore of the entire circuit apartment


Then it is either defective equipment on their part, or you have a nail threw a romex somewhere, or a staple driven home too hard.

Did you make certain that all the splices are rock solid?


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Flytyingyaker said:


> ...
> 
> The circuit has these items on it.
> USB outlet
> ...


 *ALL *of this is on ONE circuit?!?!


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## Flytyingyaker (Jun 9, 2011)

IslandGuy said:


> *ALL *of this is on ONE circuit?!?!


Yeah. What is the problem. No where near overloaded.


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## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

Flytyingyaker said:


> No it is their office. However they now tell me it seems to happen only when the laptop charger and lamp are plugged into one particular outlet. But they have also told me it tripped with out anything plugged in to that outlet.


If you haven't witnessed the trip yourself you are relying on the customer's account of what happened and I personally wouldn't put a lot of stock into what they say about when the breaker tripped and under what circumstances. 

Because of the steps you've already taken it sounds to me like the breaker is working properly and they have a defective item. If you want to successfully investigate this you yourself have to narrow down what connected items exactly are causing it. Ask them to stop using the laptop charger and lamp in that room altogether. If it stops tripping then let them start using one of the items again. If it continues to hold, plug the other one in until it trips again.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Flytyingyaker said:


> Yeah. What is the problem. No where near overloaded.


If it's a 15 amp circuit, it's overloaded. Not that that's your problem but it makes it much more difficult to divide and conquer when you have that much junk on one circuit.


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## Flytyingyaker (Jun 9, 2011)

99cents said:


> If it's a 15 amp circuit, it's overloaded. Not that that's your problem but it makes it much more difficult to divide and conquer when you have that much junk on one circuit.



How could you possibly know this? What does the total amp draw come up to for this circuit. Do you know?


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Without a doubt, I've seen it three times, the usb port is doing it. Especially if they're charging a laptop with it. Don't ask me why, but I've seen it, and I've also seen them trip gfis.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Oh yeah, forgot to add that that circuit is no where near over loaded.


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## Flytyingyaker (Jun 9, 2011)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Without a doubt, I've seen it three times, the usb port is doing it. Especially if they're charging a laptop with it. Don't ask me why, but I've seen it, and I've also seen them trip gfis.




It's been on my radar. We will see.


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## Awg-Dawg (Jan 23, 2007)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Without a doubt, I've seen it three times, the usb port is doing it. Especially if they're charging a laptop with it. Don't ask me why, but I've seen it, and I've also seen them trip gfis.



There was a thread on here awhile back.

The laptop was the culprit.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Flytyingyaker said:


> How could you possibly know this? What does the total amp draw come up to for this circuit. Do you know?


Sorry, I don't know the NEC but up here it would be very sketchy.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Are you guys down there required to have lights and ceiling fans on an AFCI circuit?


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

99cents said:


> Sorry, I don't know the NEC but up here it would be very sketchy.


Amps work different up there?


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## The_kid (Nov 4, 2014)

99cents said:


> Are you guys down there required to have lights and ceiling fans on an AFCI circuit?



In my area yes. Basically every circuit. Except kitchen appliances, AC units etc.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

The_kid said:


> In my area yes. Basically every circuit. Except kitchen appliances, AC units etc.


Bloody stupid. Bloody ****ing stupid.


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## The_kid (Nov 4, 2014)

99cents said:


> Bloody stupid. Bloody ****ing stupid.



Yes. I'm starting a hot check on house we roughed on Monday. 

It's gona be arc fault city.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Amps work different up there?


Apparently. Rule of thumb - max of twelve receptacles on a 15 amp circuit, lighting can go with calculated load.


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## 51360 (Jun 9, 2014)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Amps work different up there?


No. In 99cents defence, we calculate demand on 2 wire branch circuits in dwellings differently. We are only allowed 12 outlets, ( receptacles, lights and such ), unless the load is known, on 15 amp branch circuits! We don't usually have 20 amp branch circuits in Canada, except in kitchens for receptacles on counters and such. 

:thumbsup:

Borgi


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

How many outlets can you put on one 15 amp circuit as per the NEC?


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

eddy current said:


> How many outlets can you put on one 15 amp circuit as per the NEC?



In a dwelling? 100,000


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## 51360 (Jun 9, 2014)

eddy current said:


> How many outlets can you put on one 15 amp circuit as per the NEC?


Don't you just love the Internet. :thumbsup:

NEC allows 180VA per dwelling branch circuit, as far as I can gather.

So on a 15 amp branch circuit 10 outlets, and on a 20 amp branch circuit 13 outlets.

I am sure there is a wee bit more to it! 

Close enough? 

Borgi


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Borgi said:


> Don't you just love the Internet. :thumbsup:
> 
> NEC allows 180VA per dwelling branch circuit, as far as I can gather.
> 
> ...


That is for load calculations only. There is no code for residential work that limits the amount of receptacles that can be on one circuit.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Flytyingyaker said:


> No it is their office. However they now tell me it seems to happen only when the laptop charger and lamp are plugged into one particular outlet. But they have also told me it tripped with out anything plugged in to that outlet.


Loose wire in the outlet. Check all connections.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> Loose wire in the outlet. Check all connections.


I very seriously doubt a series arc is causing this.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

eddy current said:


> How many outlets can you put on one 15 amp circuit as per the NEC?


In dwellings, ∞.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> I very seriously doubt a series arc is causing this.


Not 100% sure what you mean but I have seen arcing when plugging and unplugging something from an outlet/receptacle. A SERIOUS DOUBT should not prevent you from troubleshooting further. :thumbsup:


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

Sounds like it's time to get out your Megger ™ .


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

ponyboy said:


> In a dwelling? 100,000


In Canada we have a 12 outlet max on circuits, unless the load is known.
That applies to both ressi and commercial.


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## te12co2w (Jun 3, 2007)

In the states, there is nothing in the NEC limiting the number of receptacles on a 15 or 20a 120 volt branch circuit.


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## Knauer (Jun 6, 2011)

I've had this problem in the past with afcis. Usually it's the ceiling fan motor. Do you have a speed control on the fan? Dimmer? 

These have been the known problems we have had to troubleshoot out in new homes. The first few times I almost threw the afcis in the dumpster. 

Siemens makes an afci troubleshooting tool. It's $350 and comes in handy. 

-knauer


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

+ 1 on the USB :thumbsup:
Tell them to charge their laptop somewhere else. I've heard off more than one instance where either a laptop or phone charger caused AFCIs to trip.

Even if it's not, it will rule out one thing anyway if they start with charging in a non-AFCI receptacle.


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## Flytyingyaker (Jun 9, 2011)

Believe it or not it was a floor outlet that looked completely fine. Had something wrong with it internally.


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

Flytyingyaker said:


> Believe it or not it was a floor outlet that looked completely fine. Had something wrong with it internally.


If possible, I would like to know what was bad in that outlet (receptacle.) I think this is the first time I read or seen an AFCI really work!


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

Flytyingyaker said:


> Believe it or not it was a floor outlet that looked completely fine. Had something wrong with it internally.


What was plugged into it?
I would bet there was a ground to neutral fault in there somewhere.
The GFCI part of the Arc Faults is what trips 98% of the time.

We could have gotten by with just more GFCI protection since that's what is catching most of the faults anyway!


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## Flytyingyaker (Jun 9, 2011)

What she had plugged in is still plugged and working fine since I changed it. She has a desk lamp and a mac charger


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

99cents said:


> Sorry, I don't know the NEC but up here it would be very sketchy.


so is the NEC....:whistling2:~CS~


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Without a doubt, I've seen it three times, *the usb port is doing it.* Especially if they're charging a laptop with it. Don't ask me why, but I've seen it, and I've also seen them trip gfis.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmlR5eG9zP4

:thumbsup:

~CS~


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