# keeping apprentices or people you've spent money training



## jwhire (Feb 2, 2010)

What is the practice for keeping or being repaid for training apprentices that leave before you've gotten any worth?


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

The hall trains the apprentice and the BA moves them as needed .


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## di11igaf (Jan 1, 2012)

What do you mean? Your posting in the union section, and by the question it sounds like your a union contractor. If so, nothing happens. The union, jatc, and the members train apprentices. Not contractors. Contractors have ACCESS to the trained apprentices.
Edit- - not trying to nitpick rewire, but the apprentice director moves apprentices, not the BA.


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## jordan_paul (Oct 4, 2011)

Actually, the JATC forces the apprentices to take a bunch of useless courses, the JW's do the real training of the apprentices.


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## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

jordan_paul said:


> Actually, the JATC forces the apprentices to take a bunch of useless courses, the JW's do the real training of the apprentices.


 
What do you feel is the "useless courses" and what courses do feel could be more usefull?


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## Amish Electrician (Jan 2, 2010)

Both union and non-union apprenticeships have the students sign a contract, stipulating that they can be asked to reimburse the program if they leave the program.

NO contractor does everything, all the time. Most tend to specialize in certain work for a handful of customers. IMO, it is essential that electricians move around, in order to get the complete training they need. In the end, the employer benefits. Indeed, we all benefit.

Still, there are some things employers do to limit the ability of their employees to market what they have learned. For example, the employer may keep the certifications that his employees get from training seminars. For example, they hire a guy to come out and give the 10-hr. OSHA course; the individual never gets a card or certificate, but the employer keeps it on file. This practice means the next employer gets to give the guy another OSHA course.

That's why it's so valuable to have the Union sponsor training. That's training you can take with you.

Ditto for work experience. In my town, all of the 'gas station' work is done by one firm. This means that very few other electricians have any Haz Loc experience. That can make it difficult to get the experience you need.

Another contractor does only houses, and likes to hold on to his apprentices. Fair enough, but that means there are ;journeymen' being trained who have never bent a stick of pipe or wired a motor starter. The limited scope of work this guy does has the effect of making it harder for his guys to find other employment.


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## jordan_paul (Oct 4, 2011)

rlc3854 said:


> What do you feel is the "useless courses" and what courses do feel could be more usefull?


Well when a 5th year whos done all his ministry of apprenticeship required schooling, and gets unionized before he writes, he has to do 12 manditory courses before he's allowed to write. Here's the exact list:

WHMIS
Fall Arrest
Conduit Bending
Arc Flash
Lock Out/ Tagout
First Aid
Hoisting and Rigging
Elevated Aerial Work Platform
Telescopic/ All Terrain Forklift
Counterbalance Forklift
Electrical Project Supervision 1
Ontario Code Course

I can see some of them useful, but why does a ready to write 5th year have to take a conduit bending course, especially when he could teach the course? How would he in any way shape or form benefit from a counter balance forklift course when all he does is resi for instance? Same thing with EPS 1, what if he dosen't want to be a foreman one day?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

di11igaf said:


> What do you mean? Your posting in the union section, and by the question it sounds like your a union contractor. If so, nothing happens. The union, jatc, and the members train apprentices.


While the union has class rooms education the real gist of what apprentices use day to day comes from field work. I'll lay money that 75% of what they are taught in class is lost in the first 5-10 years.



> Not contractors. Contractors have ACCESS to the trained apprentices.
> Edit- - not trying to nitpick rewire, but the apprentice director moves apprentices, not the BA.


 You are speaking about your local, not every local operates the same.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

jwhire said:


> What is the practice for keeping or being repaid for training apprentices that leave before you've gotten any worth?


 
You get their labor while they are with you, what more do you want? It is all the cost of doing business. If you are union or open shop and you have trained employees electricians or apprentices leaving you for other than being transfered by the hall, you are not offering them enough to keep them.


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## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

jordan_paul said:


> Well when a 5th year whos done all his ministry of apprenticeship required schooling, and gets unionized before he writes, he has to do 12 manditory courses before he's allowed to write. Here's the exact list:
> 
> WHMIS
> Fall Arrest
> ...


I can see that there are some on your list that should be completed prior to 5th year. Check Brian Johns posts above, he speaks the truth. Your EPS1 is appropriate because it prepares you to take on 1st year's in directing and training them.


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## henderson14 (Oct 23, 2010)

brian john said:


> While the union has class rooms education the real gist of what apprentices use day to day comes from field work. I'll lay money that 75% of what they are taught in class is lost in the first 5-10 years.
> 
> You are speaking about your local, not every local operates the same.



True, but to be fair, even in college you don't use most of what you were taught in the classroom in the real world. Do you have to know history or science to have most jobs in the real world? But highschools still teach it. Learning in general makes people better thinkers, thus better workers. Plus there are things you are taught in the classroom that you wouldnt have a chance to learn in the field, but you may need to know at some point. Knowledge is power.


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## freeagnt54 (Aug 6, 2008)

You probably aren't paying them enough. I have left a few different contractors for contractors offering more money and I average about $3-4 an hour raise each time.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

henderson14 said:


> True, but to be fair, even in college you don't use most of what you were taught in the classroom in the real world. Do you have to know history or science to have most jobs in the real world? But high schools still teach it. Learning in general makes people better thinkers, thus better workers. Plus there are things you are taught in the classroom that you wouldn't have a chance to learn in the field, but you may need to know at some point. Knowledge is power.


 
AS a company that reviews and oversees electrical projects installed by others and am involved in install quite a bit of off the wall equipment. I think a vast majority of the education never makes it past the year they are in.

Grab 10 electricians from a construction job give them the following question.

You have a 75 kva transformer 208/120 wye 208 amps secondary, 480 delta 90 amps primary. Calculate the kva of this transformer and 9 out of 10 will look at you like the proverbial deer in the head lights.

Lastly if the average electrician gave a rats ass about what they were doing they would research it prior to installation, how many electricians ever read the installation manual for something as basic as an ATS?

As for history without learning history, how would you ever be able to impress your kids when Jeopardy is on?

High schools are stuck with kids for so many hours a day and have to do something with them, so may as well try to teach them something.


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## green light (Oct 12, 2011)

brian john said:


> As for history without learning history, how would you ever be able to impress your kids when Jeopardy is on?


I love Jeopardy:thumbup:


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## green light (Oct 12, 2011)

Sorry,

I love what is Jeopardy:thumbup:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

green light said:


> Sorry,
> 
> I love what is Jeopardy:thumbup:


 
I have said it before on certain nights I kick butt on Jeopardy, and my kids want me to go on the show. I try to explain the night I am on they will have the following.

The Bible, Shakespere, Classical Music, Nascar, Ugly Women in History, Honest Politicians


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## green light (Oct 12, 2011)

brian john said:


> I have said it before on certain nights I kick butt on Jeopardy, and my kids want me to go on the show. I try to explain the night I am on they will have the following.
> 
> The Bible, Shakespere, Classical Music, Nascar, Ugly Women in History, Honest Politicians


Agreed. At times my wife is amazed by the number of questions I get right, but some categories I havent got a chance...


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

I think the best benefit to being a union contractor is having access to a highly trained work force.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

jwhire said:


> What is the practice for keeping or being repaid for training apprentices that leave before you've gotten any worth?


I would be more concerned about what it is that you're doing that makes them want to jump ship so fast.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

brian john said:


> AS a company that reviews and oversees electrical projects installed by others and am involved in install quite a bit of off the wall equipment. I think a vast majority of the education never makes it past the year they are in.
> 
> 
> Lastly if the average electrician gave a rats ass about what they were doing they would research it prior to installation, how many electricians ever read the installation manual for something as basic as an ATS?


So I walk in the office one day and our engine mechanic is all upset because none of our new security center gen sets will run in test.
My boss is clueless and doesn't know what to do. The mechanic sees me and says, "Sent Wirenuting over as he did this for 10 years".... We worked together at the hospital here for 10 years on this stuff.
I asked a few basic questions and looked at my boss... I kept looking as he shrugged his shoulders, looked at the
Mechanic and said, "I don't know what to do". "I have no one to send". "I'll call for a factory rep to maybe come out."

I walked out and got some coffee to go.

Sometimes it's management that is clueless.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Wirenuting said:


> I walked out and got some coffee to go.
> 
> Sometimes it's management that is clueless.


It is seldom the rank and file that destroys a company, mismanagement will time and again.

As my grandmother use to say "A fish stinks from the head down"


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## local134gt (Dec 24, 2008)

Amish Electrician said:


> Both union and non-union apprenticeships have the students sign a contract, stipulating that they can be asked to reimburse the program if they leave the program.


Local 134 had us sign one stating that we wouldn't leave and take any work away from them by working non-union. I think it was a 10 year contract and it got cheaper to buy your way out as the years went on.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

local134gt said:


> Local 134 had us sign one stating that we wouldn't leave and take any work away from them by working non-union. I think it was a 10 year contract and it got cheaper to buy your way out as the years went on.


 
Sounds like a paranoid bunch of sissies, treat you men well, treat them fairly if they become contractors and the union could avoid such contracts that likely would not hold up in court.


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

green light said:


> Sorry,
> 
> I love what is Jeopardy:thumbup:


 What is I love Jeopardy :laughing:


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

brian john said:


> Sounds like a paranoid bunch of sissies, treat you men well, treat them fairly if they become contractors and they could avoid such contracts that likely would not hold up in court.


Most locals do this. They figure they spent 5 years training you, they want their moneys worth. I've never heard of them having to collect though. Although I have never known a j-man to go the other direction.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Loose Neutral said:


> Most locals do this. They figure they spent 5 years training you, they want their moneys worth. I've never heard of them having to collect though. Although I have never known a j-man to go the other direction.


I understand the 5 year rule as it is a substantial investment in money by the local ten years seems a bit much.


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## local134gt (Dec 24, 2008)

brian john said:


> I understand the 5 year rule as it is a substantial investment in money by the local ten years seems a bit much.


It's 5 years after the apprenticeship, so 10 years total. Not really a big deal


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

local134gt said:


> It's 5 years after the apprenticeship, so 10 years total. Not really a big deal


 
I misunderstood you, I thought 10 after apprenticeship.

I wonder if they (the IBEW, any local) have ever gone after anybody for leaving in the 5 year period.


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## local134gt (Dec 24, 2008)

brian john said:


> I misunderstood you, I thought 10 after apprenticeship.
> 
> I wonder if they (the IBEW, any local) have ever gone after anybody for leaving in the 5 year period.


When I was going thru they said it wasn't uncommon before for some companies to try and send guys thru the apprenticeship, then have them quit and work as maintenance or house electricians. But never said if they went after anyone for the $


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

local134gt said:


> When I was going thru they said it wasn't uncommon before for some companies to try and send guys thru the apprenticeship, then have them quit and work as maintenance or house electricians. But never said if they went after anyone for the $


 
But why would a trained IBEW electrician do that, seems like a tail from the hall?


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## henderson14 (Oct 23, 2010)

brian john said:


> Sounds like a paranoid bunch of sissies, treat you men well, treat them fairly if they become contractors and the union could avoid such contracts that likely would not hold up in court.



I don't get how they would even know, so its most likely just a scare tactic. I think its mostly enforced if a union guy decides to open a non-union shop.


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