# Need 3-way input power transfer switch for shared well



## sarness (Sep 14, 2010)

I'm thinking something like a 3 way rotary or drum switch, Allen Bradly makes some, and you can configure it break before make so no chance of smoke.

Steven


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

http://www.google.com/search?q=elec...ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7TSHB_en


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## Old man (Mar 24, 2010)

If they can afford a 2nd home then why the heck cant they have thier own wells or at least not worry about the power consumtion and divy the cost. Talk about pinching pennies.:laughing: What if more than one is at thier 2nd house? Which one pays for the others shower?


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Sorry to say but I can think of a couple of articles or at least one that makes this not legal per the NEC. You need to do something like put in one service for the well and charge each customer by their water usage.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Yep it looks like, 210.25 makes this and also makes the original installation illegal.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> Yep it looks like, 210.25 makes this and also makes the original installation illegal.


 
I don't think think that one applys here. They are seperate houses and the well is associated with the dwelling. :001_huh: And each house has its own circuit to the well.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> I don't think think that one applys here. They are seperate houses and the well is associated with the dwelling. :001_huh: And each house has its own circuit to the well.


(A) Dwelling Unit Branch Circuits. Branch circuits in
each dwelling unit shall supply only loads within that
dwelling unit or loads associated only with that dwelling
unit.

IDK though I'm not an NEC expert.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> (A) Dwelling Unit Branch Circuits. Branch circuits in
> each dwelling unit shall supply only loads within that
> dwelling unit or loads associated only with that dwelling
> unit.
> ...


 
The way I read it branch circuits must only supply loads 
within that unit or associated with it. 
The well is not inside but it is associated with the dwelling. 
This article is more for multi family where you would have a house panel for hallway lights and they want the power not to come out of a unit.

I'm no expert either but that is my opinion on it.


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## rb1 (Sep 14, 2010)

Thanks to those with informative replies. This is definitely not a DIY situation -- there is no way I'd let anyone but a licensed electrician go anywhere near a shared well pump.

I just wanted to know what the options are so I can be informed. An electrician I spoke to today said you could do two double-throw switches in series with no chance of having two homes powering the pump at once. I was just wondering if there is a better way (e.g. triple-throw switch?) 

I can see how the code could be a gray area. To the extent a house is using the well by itself, it wouldn't seem to be a problem. It seems less clear if more than one house is using the well at the same time.


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## Old man (Mar 24, 2010)

:laughing:When you find that triple throw switch I would like to know how to buy stock in it.


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## rb1 (Sep 14, 2010)

Old man said:


> :laughing:When you find that triple throw switch I would like to know how to buy stock in it.


Here is a 4 position input selector (3 power sources + off). It's for marine applications, but seems to have enough capacity:

http://www.technooutlet.com/cw20804.html

Is there not a similar product available for more general use (although I expect that one might actually work for this application).


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

You cannot supply a seperate structure(the well) with more than one circuit legally, except for a few exceptions that do not fit here


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

Put a small off grid pv in with a batterry and charge controller so it doesnt matter who pays for it.


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## rb1 (Sep 14, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> You cannot supply a seperate structure(the well) with more than one circuit legally, except for a few exceptions that do not fit here


The existing configuration is set up exactly this way, but if this indeed true, then it seems that the least expensive solution (at least for several years) will be for me to just pay for the electricity to drive the well pump myself (e.g disconnect all the existing circuits and have a new circuit run from my home to the well).


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

rb1 said:


> The existing configuration is set up exactly this way, but if this indeed true, then it seems that the least expensive solution (at least for several years) will be for me to just pay for the electricity to drive the well pump myself (e.g disconnect all the existing circuits and have a new circuit run from my home to the well).


and this brings me back to my first post

google electrician and call one

now scram


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## rb1 (Sep 14, 2010)

gold said:


> and this brings me back to my first post
> 
> google electrician and call one


Did I not indicate I had spoken to an electrician? 

And there seem to be differing opinions among experienced folks even here as to whether the existing setup is legal or not. It was the well company that installed it this way.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

rb1 said:


> Did I not indicate I had spoken to an electrician?
> 
> And there seem to be differing opinions among experienced folks even here as to whether the existing setup is legal or not. It was the well company that installed it this way.


 

The only difference of opinion you'll find is from guys who don't know, or understand the code. 225.30 makes your setup illegal.
A well installer does not know electrical code.


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## rb1 (Sep 14, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> The only difference of opinion you'll find is from guys who don't know, or understand the code. 225.30 makes your setup illegal.


225.30 seems to cover structures located on the same property and under single management. Neither of which applies in this situation.


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## jbfan (Jan 22, 2007)

Not from GA are you?

I looked at a set up like this years ago and walked away from it!
It worked fine when it was al family, but after several divorces and home sells, it be came 3 unrelated people fighting for water from the same well.
Not a very pretty sight, and something I did not want to get involved in.


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## rb1 (Sep 14, 2010)

jbfan said:


> Not from GA are you?


Turns out that I am, but I don't think this is the same setup. 

In this case, there is a pretty clear cut deed and everything is spelled out in terms of the obligations once you tap in.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> The only difference of opinion you'll find is from guys who don't know, or understand the code. 225.30 makes your setup illegal.
> A well installer does not know electrical code.


 
I don't think that one makes it illegal.


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## rb1 (Sep 14, 2010)

Old man said:


> :laughing:When you find that triple throw switch I would like to know how to buy stock in it.


Electroswitch
775 Pleasant St, Suite 1
Weymouth, MA
02189-2355

Triple throw, Quad throw, you name it. If they don't stock it, they'll build it for you.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> I don't think that one makes it illegal.


 
Care to explain why?

A structure can only be fed with one branch circuit unless permited in225.30 a-e

I don't think any of them apply to the op


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Care to explain why?
> 
> A structure can only be fed with one branch circuit unless permited in225.30 a-e
> 
> I don't think any of them apply to the op




My reasoning is it says a structure on the same property under single control.
Dosen't seem to be the case. IDK...


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## rbj (Oct 23, 2007)

*Water rights...*



rb1 said:


> > I'm looking to tap into a shared well already servicing two homes to add a 3rd house to use the well.
> 
> 
> There is more to just adding an overriding electrical supply source to the 3rd house from a community well. A new water line has to be hooked up to the system captive supply tank at the well.
> ...


I agree with the well guy.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

rbj said:


> I agree with the well guy.


I know that this would not fly in AZ. There are like 5 different codes that say not just no but he11 no. This comes from someone who does this work a lot.


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## woodchuck2 (Sep 18, 2009)

I myself have done something similar to this for a gentleman last year, BUT the difference was the pump was wired from one panel and i installed a 3-way switch to control the pump from two locations "pressure tanks". One tank was in the main home and the second was in an apartment above his detached garage. I mounted the 3-way switch in a breezeway that spanned the two buildings. His idea was that he wanted some way to control the pump without having to go into both homes unless needed due to seasonal use and seasonal prep. The only way i can see to control this from a 3rd location is by a 4 way switch but it still must be a single dedicated circuit and they would still have to use one of the other pressure tanks for pressure switching. I would tell the HO to drill their own well and save the hassle.


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## rbj (Oct 23, 2007)

woodchuck2 said:


> I myself have done something similar to this for a gentleman last year, BUT the difference was the pump was wired from one panel and i installed a 3-way switch to control the pump from two locations "pressure tanks". One tank was in the main home and the second was in an apartment above his detached garage. I mounted the 3-way switch in a breezeway that spanned the two buildings. His idea was that he wanted some way to control the pump without having to go into both homes unless needed due to seasonal use and seasonal prep. The only way i can see to control this from a 3rd location is by a 4 way switch but it still must be a single dedicated circuit and they would still have to use one of the other pressure tanks for pressure switching. I would tell the HO to drill their own well and save the hassle.


Thanks for explaining what was done. I am interested in the type of well and pump being serviced along with the line capacity involved. (I.e. HP rating and Voltage, distance from well, conductor AWG...etc.) The system on a third home appears to need an overhaul for a centralized hookup.


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## woodchuck2 (Sep 18, 2009)

I had to run a new wire "all 12ga" to transfer power of one leg "line" from the home to the 3-way switch and back to the home pressure switch, another wire from the apartment pressure switch to the 3-way switch that worked as a switch loop and would send back to the home pressure switch. I used the home pressure switch as the location of the well pump circuit.
The fella i did the work for has a drilled well with a 3/4hp 20amp 220-240v motor about 75' from the home. How deep the well is i do not know. I had a plumber friend come in for the water line. The HO already had a water line run to the garage but it was not large enough so the plumber just Td into the original line with 1" and ran that to the garage. When the pump is energized the line is filled to the shut offs at each tank. I opted for heat tapes at each tank that are controlled with "temp cubes" so they come on at 35deg and shut off at 45deg to prevent freezing. Both homes get drained in the fall and the plumber set up the homes so the HO can drop a pump in a 5gallon pail of antifreeze and fill all of his pipes and traps. So when the HO comes to town he just decides which building to stay in, flips the switch for the pump and charges the system for that building. Run the water for 10 minutes or so to clean out the pipes and turn on the hot water breaker. The HO is happy with it so far and there have been no issues.


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## rbj (Oct 23, 2007)

woodchuck2 said:


> I had to run a new wire "all 12ga" to transfer power of one leg "line" from the home to the 3-way switch and back to the home pressure switch, another wire from the apartment pressure switch to the 3-way switch that worked as a switch loop and would send back to the home pressure switch. I used the home pressure switch as the location of the well pump circuit.
> The fella i did the work for has a drilled well with a 3/4hp 20amp 220-240v motor about 75' from the home. How deep the well is i do not know. I had a plumber friend come in for the water line. The HO already had a water line run to the garage but it was not large enough so the plumber just Td into the original line with 1" and ran that to the garage. When the pump is energized the line is filled to the shut offs at each tank. I opted for heat tapes at each tank that are controlled with "temp cubes" so they come on at 35deg and shut off at 45deg to prevent freezing. Both homes get drained in the fall and the plumber set up the homes so the HO can drop a pump in a 5gallon pail of antifreeze and fill all of his pipes and traps. So when the HO comes to town he just decides which building to stay in, flips the switch for the pump and charges the system for that building. Run the water for 10 minutes or so to clean out the pipes and turn on the hot water breaker. The HO is happy with it so far and there have been no issues.


I can see why the OP has asked for help in trying to connect up to this existing system. The response I commented on explains why an equitable system will not work with what exists without extensive rework in both water supply and electrical control circuitry for a third home interface.

After reading about the line flushing anti-freeze from a domestic supply, indicates a health issue that I would not want to be part of in this installation due to future hazard liabilities that may arise from any mishap. Considering a central supply tank and water line distributions to each dwelling would be the best start to correcting the existing well system. For safety starters, putting a GFCI on the branch circuit will not work because of the looped circuit.

If the new home owner plans to share this water supply, it would be prudent to check out how many GPM's the well can supply to make sure there is adequate storage capacity for all three homes. There are home insurance requirements for a minimum water pressure and hose stream distance with output capacity that may be another consideration. 

I also set well pumps and high country water systems, and there are too many loose ends on this project not to overlook. rbj


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## rb1 (Sep 14, 2010)

rbj said:


> I agree with the well guy.


Most of the content of your post didn't come over in the quote, but each home has it's own well pressure tank with check-valve to prevent backflow, so there is no community water tank or "captive water supply" at the well itself. 

If you set up a metered account for the well itself, the minimum service charge from the electric company would be triple (or more) the actual amount required to drive the well pump.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

rb1 said:


> Most of the content of your post didn't come over in the quote, but each home has it's own well pressure tank with check-valve to prevent backflow, so there is no community water tank or "captive water supply" at the well itself.
> 
> If you set up a metered account for the well itself, the minimum service charge from the electric company would be triple (or more) the actual amount required to drive the well pump.


Not if you have a storage tank installed. It will be easier on the pump too, less start/stops that way.


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## rbj (Oct 23, 2007)

rb1 said:


> > Most of the content of your post didn't come over in the quote, but each home has it's own well pressure tank with check-valve to prevent backflow, so there is no community water tank or "captive water supply" at the well itself.
> 
> 
> Maybe I do not understand what lines are being flushed and where the check valve is located. If referring to the pump having an integral check valve, there still remains a residual coating in the line that takes more than just a flush to clean the piping out completely.
> ...


 A well pump will not have a long run time with a large capacity captive air tank at the well that feeds all three homes. The existing setup you have described indicates that the well pump cycling is too often and will considerably shorten the pump life as Jlarsen mentions.


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## woodchuck2 (Sep 18, 2009)

I agree with RBJ that this is about impossible if not certainly impractical for 3 homes to be set up this way. IMO once you get to 3 homes either drill another well or put in a pump station with storage tanks/pressure switch right at the well. Then the only issue each HO may have to face is turning the water on or off and draining their pipes. I worked on a system last year that used a 3k gallon storage tank with a variable speed water pump to feed around 120 condo units. There were floats inside the tank to trigger on the well pump and fill the tank. This system would be a bit large for just 3 homes but the same system could be used with a smaller tank for 3 homes.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Only thing is with the storage tank thing is that when the pump does bite it and it will you will not know until the tank runs out, the booster runs dry and you got no water. 

We fix this by adding a smart relay that handles the HOA and start switches, handles the floats, starts the well and moniters the pump with a current switch or flow switch and looks for the failure and provides an early warning. The smart relay can handle other stuff too like duplex boosters and chlorination too if needed. 

Just throwing out stuff learned the hard way. :thumbsup:


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## George Stolz (Jan 22, 2009)

I'm not getting the whole "centralized tank" theory. Who pays to get the water pumped out of the ground? :001_huh:


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## JohnR (Apr 12, 2010)

I have this same problem with my two nephews house they are building.
They are going to be setting up a duplex as if it is a couple of condo's for easier re-sale down the road. 
The answer I got was either to drill a larger well casing and insert 2 pumps. OR, just install a "owners panel" or "condo association panel" and run 1 pump off of that. They will share the pump bill and later when they put up a barn, they will have the load off of that panel, and share the cost of the barn power.
I am thinking that it would be easy to install after the pressure switches and backflow preventers, a couple of water meters. They can handle their own calculations off of those readings.
They will each have their own pressure tank.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

George Stolz said:


> I'm not getting the whole "centralized tank" theory. Who pays to get the water pumped out of the ground? :001_huh:


You install a separate service and have 3 water meters and they pay based on water usage. Then price/gallon would be set to cover the operations cost.


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## George Stolz (Jan 22, 2009)

I thought it was an alternative to a house meter, though...?


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## woodchuck2 (Sep 18, 2009)

Jlarson said:


> Only thing is with the storage tank thing is that when the pump does bite it and it will you will not know until the tank runs out, the booster runs dry and you got no water.
> 
> We fix this by adding a smart relay that handles the HOA and start switches, handles the floats, starts the well and moniters the pump with a current switch or flow switch and looks for the failure and provides an early warning. The smart relay can handle other stuff too like duplex boosters and chlorination too if needed.
> 
> Just throwing out stuff learned the hard way. :thumbsup:


The large system i did used a 3 phase inverter so i controlled that with a relay. I used a low level float to trigger the relay. When water got down the float would shut off the relay which in turn shut down the 3phase inverter. The variable speed pump cost $7k, no way was i going to be liable for that burning up. There were also high level and low level floats to control the well pump to keep the tank full.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

George Stolz said:


> I thought it was an alternative to a house meter, though...?


No not really it's just the right way to do it. 



woodchuck2 said:


> The large system i did used a 3 phase inverter so i controlled that with a relay. I used a low level float to trigger the relay. When water got down the float would shut off the relay which in turn shut down the 3phase inverter. The variable speed pump cost $7k, no way was i going to be liable for that burning up. There were also high level and low level floats to control the well pump to keep the tank full.


Fun work isn't it? Every one we do is a little different. Makes for a very NOT boring job.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

That's a goofy setup. I'm not even going to try to figure out is it's code compliant. I'd install a seperate service for it or meter it from one of the houses. One house or owner is responsible for splitting the bill or the POCO splits the bill for it somehow.


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## rb1 (Sep 14, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> Not if you have a storage tank installed. It will be easier on the pump too, less start/stops that way.


This doesn't negate that the POCO will charge 20$/month minimum plus usage, when the actual electricity needed to drive the pump is 5$/month or so. 

The homes are rarely occupied simultaneously, so in practice it's like each home has it's own well the vast majority of the time. 

I agree with the other poster above who said it was "goofy", but it's been working for 30 years this way with 2 homes, why the big difference with 3?


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

rb1 said:


> I agree with the other poster above who said it was "goofy", but it's been working for 30 years this way with 2 homes, why the big difference with 3?


Just cause it works doesn't mean it's even close to right.


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## rbj (Oct 23, 2007)

rb1 said:


> > This doesn't negate that the POCO will charge 20$/month minimum plus usage, when the actual electricity needed to drive the pump is 5$/month or so.
> 
> 
> Maybe I did not explain clear enough that the WATER metering does not involve any POCO.
> ...


 Other reasons mentioned earlier.....
Liability of surrounding community, health concerns for water contamination due to antifreeze residual scum in the pipe, not Electrical Code, not Water Council Code and not Fire Code compliant.


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

rbj said:


> Other reasons mentioned earlier.....
> Liability of surrounding community, health concerns for water contamination due to antifreeze residual scum in the pipe, not Electrical Code, not Water Council Code and not Fire Code compliant.


 I M O, this thread is going nowhere. Bite the Bullet, and get it fixed right!


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Jlarson said:


> Just cause it works doesn't mean it's even close to right.


 

agreed:thumbsup:


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