# Solar backfeed



## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

Can someone explain how solar safely backfeeds a panel ? 

For instance...when you have a dual feed into a panel like utility power and a generator you need an interlock. But , many solar systems I see simply backfeed on a double pole breaker into the panel and the main always stays on. 

I’m just trying to figure out how this works. 


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Grid-tied solar power is not supposed to be a separate source like a generator, it is supposed to backfeed into the grid. The inverter will sync the solar power with the utility power so that this can be done with no ill effects.


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## Signal1 (Feb 10, 2016)

HackWork said:


> Grid-tied solar power is not supposed to be a separate source like a generator, it is supposed to backfeed into the grid. The inverter will sync the solar power with the utility power so that this can be done with no ill effects.


Good explanation.

Some of our buildings have co-generator systems, (as opposed to emergency generators) that work in the same way. It monitors the utility sine wive properties and duplicates it so there are no ill effects.


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

It is often surprising to most people that grid tie solar normally shuts off if utility power is disconnected. Like backup generators though if the utility goes offline the utility feed must be disconnected for safety reasons.

Grid tie large solar farms have been causing lots of stability problems in NC. Imagine what happens if a rain storm crosses a large solar farm so the power generated suddenly plummets or in the case of Amazon East the wind shifts directions in a largely rural area to begin with. No good answers yet.


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## farmantenna (Nov 22, 2012)

Signal1 said:


> Good explanation.
> 
> Some of our buildings have co-generator systems, (as opposed to emergency generators) that work in the same way. It monitors the utility sine wive properties and duplicates it so there are no ill effects.


what kind of buildings have the system you describe? industrial, hotel?


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## Signal1 (Feb 10, 2016)

farmantenna said:


> what kind of buildings have the system you describe? industrial, hotel?


Schools. 

Solar and co-gen.


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

WronGun said:


> Can someone explain how solar safely backfeeds a panel ?
> 
> For instance...when you have a dual feed into a panel like utility power and a generator you need an interlock. But , many solar systems I see simply backfeed on a double pole breaker into the panel and the main always stays on.
> 
> ...


Grid tie inverters automatically shut down if the incoming power goes out.
The solar array is offline, and you can't get any power from it.

There is at least one way around using the solar panels when the power is out, with battery backup systems and a transfer switch, but I've never seen one myself.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

emtnut said:


> Grid tie inverters automatically shut down if the incoming power goes out.
> The solar array is offline, and you can't get any power from it.
> 
> There is at least one way around using the solar panels when the power is out, with battery backup systems and a transfer switch, but I've never seen one myself.


By law such systems don't get the IRS rebate. :crying:

That's why you'll just don't see them.

Without the rebate, they are totally uneconomic. :crying:

And, obviously, they only work when the sun shines... or if you've laid in an astounding battery bank. In a commercial setting the numbers don't remotely work out.


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## Bdcrump (Jan 2, 2021)

paulengr said:


> It is often surprising to most people that grid tie solar normally shuts off if utility power is disconnected. Like backup generators though if the utility goes offline the utility feed must be disconnected for safety reasons.
> 
> Grid tie large solar farms have been causing lots of stability problems in NC. Imagine what happens if a rain storm crosses a large solar farm so the power generated suddenly plummets or in the case of Amazon East the wind shifts directions in a largely rural area to begin with. No good answers yet.
> 
> ...


Ok so im totally new to solar wiring. I'm assuming there are two types of inverters,one that ties into the grid and one that can be used off grid. The grid tie in automatically gets the phasing correct the off grid does not?? Correct???


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## Kevin (Feb 14, 2017)

Bdcrump said:


> Ok so im totally new to solar wiring. I'm assuming there are two types of inverters,one that ties into the grid and one that can be used off grid. The grid tie in automatically gets the phasing correct the off grid does not?? Correct???


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

farmantenna said:


> what kind of buildings have the system you describe? industrial, hotel?


Some larger buildings that have co-generation use the gen set to make hot water also. The generator makes electricity and the engine produces heat for a heat exchanger to make domestic hot water.


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## PokeySmokey (Nov 14, 2017)

paulengr said:


> It is often surprising to most people that grid tie solar normally shuts off if utility power is disconnected. Like backup generators though if the utility goes offline the utility feed must be disconnected for safety reasons.
> 
> Grid tie large solar farms have been causing lots of stability problems in NC. Imagine what happens if a rain storm crosses a large solar farm so the power generated suddenly plummets or in the case of Amazon East the wind shifts directions in a largely rural area to begin with. No good answers yet.
> 
> ...


Most Electric Utility Systems to-day are relying on base generation which cannot quickly adjust to rapid demand changes.

Older Electric Utility Systems had a variety of sources such as Nuclear and Hydro (Water) powered generators for base loads and Coal, Natural Gas, and Oil Generating stations plus Combustion Turbines (Oil and/or Natural Gas) for rapid response in demand changes. A good operator and crew can bring a 350 MW coal fired generator up to full output from a cold start in two hours which is still slow. This is why they had spinning reserve (Coal, Natural Gas, and Oil Fired Generators online at minimum load). This way if a large solar/wind farm or hydro/nuclear generator(s) suddenly went offline the spinning reserve would automatically run-up to take up the increased load. Spinning reserve is the best way to avoid major problems caused by loss of a large generating source dropping off the grid.

Nuclear cannot react fast enough for peaking and loss of generation. It takes 24 to 48 hour so start up and shut down a nuclear powered generator. Hydro is better but still relatively slow. This is why the are used for Base Load. They are place online and stay relatively stable with little output variation.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

PokeySmokey said:


> Most Electric Utility Systems to-day are relying on base generation which cannot quickly adjust to rapid demand changes.
> 
> Older Electric Utility Systems had a variety of sources such as Nuclear and Hydro (Water) powered generators for base loads and Coal, Natural Gas, and Oil Generating stations plus Combustion Turbines (Oil and/or Natural Gas) for rapid response in demand changes. A good operator and crew can bring a 350 MW coal fired generator up to full output from a cold start in two hours which is still slow. This is why they had spinning reserve (Coal, Natural Gas, and Oil Fired Generators online at minimum load). This way if a large solar/wind farm or hydro/nuclear generator(s) suddenly went offline the spinning reserve would automatically run-up to take up the increased load. Spinning reserve is the best way to avoid major problems caused by loss of a large generating source dropping off the grid.
> 
> Nuclear cannot react fast enough for peaking and loss of generation. It takes 24 to 48 hour so start up and shut down a nuclear powered generator. Hydro is better but still relatively slow. This is why the are used for Base Load. They are place online and stay relatively stable with little output variation.


Natural gas-fired combustion turbines are one of the quickest. If they're running at low output, they can go from low to full in less than a minute. They can also go from cold and dark to full output in a couple of minutes.


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## SWDweller (Dec 9, 2020)

Paul,

The people on the left coast are pushing battery banks as a method of smoothing out the power dips from renewables. Personally it is a lot of money for the consumers to pay for some politicians errand. (fools)
sample








Giant batteries, key to solar and wind power plans, start to get bank backing


Big batteries have long been touted as the future of the electrical grid and a key to unlocking solar and wind power.




www.latimes.com


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## Kevin (Feb 14, 2017)

SWDweller said:


> Paul,
> 
> The people on the left coast are pushing battery banks as a method of smoothing out the power dips from renewables. Personally it is a lot of money for the consumers to pay for some politicians errand. (fools)
> sample
> ...


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## russellc (Oct 20, 2021)

PokeySmokey said:


> Most Electric Utility Systems to-day are relying on base generation which cannot quickly adjust to rapid demand changes.
> 
> Older Electric Utility Systems had a variety of sources such as Nuclear and Hydro (Water) powered generators for base loads and Coal, Natural Gas, and Oil Generating stations plus Combustion Turbines (Oil and/or Natural Gas) for rapid response in demand changes. A good operator and crew can bring a 350 MW coal fired generator up to full output from a cold start in two hours which is still slow. This is why they had spinning reserve (Coal, Natural Gas, and Oil Fired Generators online at minimum load). This way if a large solar/wind farm or hydro/nuclear generator(s) suddenly went offline the spinning reserve would automatically run-up to take up the increased load. Spinning reserve is the best way to avoid major problems caused by loss of a large generating source dropping off the grid.
> 
> Nuclear cannot react fast enough for peaking and loss of generation. It takes 24 to 48 hour so start up and shut down a nuclear powered generator. Hydro is better but still relatively slow. This is why the are used for Base Load. They are place online and stay relatively stable with little output variation.


'A good crew' cannot bring a cold iron steam plant to full output in two hours! I worked with steam plants as an operator. A startup is a slow (and busy time for operators) process to raise boiler water temperature, and then admit steam to roll and raise the turbine temp. More like eight hours and more. This a a slow temperature and stress process to meet parameters


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

emtnut said:


> Grid tie inverters automatically shut down if the incoming power goes out.
> The solar array is offline, and you can't get any power from it.
> 
> There is at least one way around using the solar panels when the power is out, with battery backup systems and a transfer switch, but I've never seen one myself.


Around here, the poco doesnt like grid tie and battery. They insist on one or the other. A battery system inverter is different from a grid tie inverter in most cases. Also im not certain but since battery is normally off grid, the inverter cant shut down on poco loss.
I agree it would certainly require an ATS, but i doubt the battery inverter would have the capability to sync to the grid.
About 10 yrs ago, i investigated solar very hard (to see if i thought i could make money at it) and i dont recall battery inverters that were grid tie capable


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

emtnut said:


> The solar array is offline, and you can't get any power from it.


The pv array is always generating if sun is shining on it, the inverter is what shuts down.

Now i have no idea if this could work, but it might maybe be possible to parallel battery inverters with the grid inverters. Just hook the battery inverters to the batteries, and the grid tie to the grid. 

But then you would need a way to utilize the battery power which is normally low voltage lighting and maybe one or 2 small appliances. A grid tied house wouldnt have those, unless extra installed with the system.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Almost Retired said:


> The pv array is always generating if sun is shining on it, the inverter is what shuts down.
> 
> Now i have no idea if this could work, but it might maybe be possible to parallel battery inverters with the grid inverters. Just hook the battery inverters to the batteries, and the grid tie to the grid.
> 
> But then you would need a way to utilize the battery power which is normally low voltage lighting and maybe one or 2 small appliances. A grid tied house wouldnt have those, unless extra installed with the system.


If your off grid inverter can sync to a generator, it can sync to the grid. My 25+ year old Trace has both utility and generator inputs. No interlocking required. California and Hawaii require grid tie inverters to be able to do grid support. PoCo would determine the settings. This goes back to 2015. All grid tie inverters are required to have that ability.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Almost Retired said:


> The pv array is always generating if sun is shining on it, the inverter is what shuts down.
> 
> Now i have no idea if this could work, but it might maybe be possible to parallel battery inverters with the grid inverters. Just hook the battery inverters to the batteries, and the grid tie to the grid.
> 
> But then you would need a way to utilize the battery power which is normally low voltage lighting and maybe one or 2 small appliances. A grid tied house wouldnt have those, unless extra installed with the system.


What you describe is called an AC coupled system. Not parallel, series. A battery inverter makes AC and syncs to one or more grid tie inverters. The battery inverter handles the battery bank, generator and the grid tie inverters handle the loads. It used on very large system.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

backstay said:


> What you describe is called an AC coupled system. Not parallel, series. A battery inverter makes AC and syncs to one or more grid tie inverters. The battery inverter handles the battery bank, generator and the grid tie inverters handle the loads. It used on very large system.


Thanx !! Stuff i didnt know. Or maybe it has been so long and i didnt look into it initially that i forgot it. anyway


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

backstay said:


> If your off grid inverter can sync to a generator, it can sync to the grid. My 25+ year old Trace has both utility and generator inputs. No interlocking required. California and Hawaii require grid tie inverters to be able to do grid support. PoCo would determine the settings. This goes back to 2015. All grid tie inverters are required to have that ability.


The "Grid support" part i am not understanding. Are you saying that CA and HI want the inverter to stay on when the grid goes down ? or something else ?


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

Maybe it is the large system part that i missed?

I only looked at residential for louisiana. So i have no knowledge of anything else


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Almost Retired said:


> Thanx !! Stuff i didnt know. Or maybe it has been so long and i didnt look into it initially that i forgot it. anyway


Solar is a moving target. This grid support thing is 180 from the past practice of shutting down when the grid has a hiccup. UL 1741 Supplement SA is the standard to build the inverters to. Then it looks like each state will have its own regulations. PoCo then decides what they need as far as voltage dips, duration as such. So yes, inverter stays connected for awhile.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

AC coupled two types of inverters.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

This would be a fairly standard setup for a smaller home.


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

I zoomed those pictures to try to make them more readable but they're pretty grainy.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

MikeFL said:


> I zoomed those pictures to try to make them more readable but they're pretty grainy.


Sorry, photo stuff isn’t my thing.
Go here for the pictures.









Solar battery system types - AC Vs DC coupled — Clean Energy Reviews


AC coupled is the preferred battery configuration for larger solar installations while DC coupling works very well for smaller systems. We explain the advantages and disadvantages of each along with the new generation High Voltage DC batteries and AC battery systems.




www.cleanenergyreviews.info


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

backstay said:


> Sorry, photo stuff isn’t my thing.
> Go here for the pictures.
> 
> 
> ...


Yes pics much better.

Yes solar has come a very long way in 10 yrs. I never saw anything for a home that was rated to handle batteries and grid tie back then


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

Almost Retired said:


> Yes pics much better.
> 
> Yes solar has come a very long way in 10 yrs. I never saw anything for a home that was rated to handle batteries and grid tie back then



The bad part of this is :
louisiana has stopped their rebate program, and kWh has just recently begun to cost enough to actually make solar pay for itself with the past rebates.

10 yrs ago i saw local tv ads for solar all the time, now i barely even see any panels anywhere, some have been taken down (i think they might have been rented)


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

bottom line for me, i never got any body to bite on it at 5.00/watt for installed systems back then. I was not going to do it on a roof, but in the yard.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

I said this before and still believe it. The utility companies have fixed costs. Trucks and manpower. They have to maintain the grid. Administration costs. Poles, transformers, cable, other materials. Power plants...etc.. These are fixed costs and cannot go down. How does the utility make money to pay for these things? They SELL electricity. The more people turn to solar then the rates go up for everybody. It is not fair that people with money get subsidized for installing an expensive way of generating electricity and people who cannot install solar systems for what ever reason have to pay extra.


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## SWDweller (Dec 9, 2020)

Not only do the POCOs sell electricity they are in most places guaranteed a profit. So you get well managed companies and a slug of the others as well. Just look at Kalifornia, they create the problem then try to force the public into their solution. Batteries for peak demand, grid scale, that is nuts. Oh we can not generate power so lets shift the peak a few hours so that the generation can catch up.
West of Phoenix is the largest Nuke in the country ( ~4000mw), called Palo Verde. During construction some of the backers sold part of their positions to other utilities. So Arizona gets about 1/3 and CA and Texas get about 1/3 of the power. PV is licensed to 2050. Who knows what will happen then.
What the huggers have not figured out is they shut down 4 Corners, BIG coal plant total of 5 units ~1500 MW when operational. Only two units are left in operation and they close in a few years. The Navajo tribe thought they had the cats meow and now all of the good paying jobs are gone. This is NO G land not much out there but high desert, wind and the Navajo reservation. So 4 Corners closes and then there is PV and some NG peaker plants. Could get cloudy on a sunny day when the ac needs to run.

A couple of small 2-300 MW natural gas plants were constructed in AZ a while back. But nothing that I know about is on the horizon for construction.

There is a lot more to this whole situation that just selling power. 
One of the reasons I am looking into a 5kw solar system with a 48v fork lift battery. Completely stand alone.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

You’re better of with a lithium battery system. More upfront, but better cost over time and better performance. 









Home


At Battle Born Batteries, we specialize in providing top of the line LiFePO4 batteries so you can get out there, stay out there!




battlebornbatteries.com


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Almost Retired said:


> bottom line for me, i never got any body to bite on it at 5.00/watt for installed systems back then. I was not going to do it on a roof, but in the yard.


I charge $5/watt grid tie and $10/watt off grid.


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## SWDweller (Dec 9, 2020)

I looked into LI for awhile, was all excited about rebuilding a Nissan leaf battery pack, until they got so expensive, not counting the labor to rewire them. I have seen smashed Leafs with salvage titles going for close to $6k. That is nuts, plus the 500 mile trip to get them. Looked into several other LI batteries and for less than 4 grand I get a battery with tech that I understand and replaceable cells. I am still designing the tilt system for the panels. It will be ground mount, I have the room and do not want to destroy my roof. The boys at Zome works in NM do not answer emails any more. And no one that I have found is selling their tilt system. The original one used freon to tilt the panels back and forth. I am not going to get into XY axis controls again. Tried that at the U for some solar reflectors, just could not keep them working together.
Get an Whole Earth Catalog and everything is in there. I am dating myself.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Dual axis 12 module tracker. $4800 plus shipping. Single axis start at about $4000


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Four 50 amp hour 24 volt batteries, $2400









50 Ah 24V LiFePO4 Deep Cycle Battery


The 50Ah 24V LiFePO4 Deep Cycle battery weighs a fraction of lead acid, is backed by a ten year warranty, and designed and assembled in the USA!




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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Almost Retired said:


> Yes pics much better.
> 
> Yes solar has come a very long way in 10 yrs. I never saw anything for a home that was rated to handle batteries and grid tie back then


Like i said, Trace had them 25 years ago. Now we have inverters that do grid tie, off grid, mini grid, zero grid, load support, and grid backup, in one unit.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

kb1jb1 said:


> I said this before and still believe it. The utility companies have fixed costs. Trucks and manpower. They have to maintain the grid. Administration costs. Poles, transformers, cable, other materials. Power plants...etc.. These are fixed costs and cannot go down. How does the utility make money to pay for these things? They SELL electricity. The more people turn to solar then the rates go up for everybody. It is not fair that people with money get subsidized for installing an expensive way of generating electricity and people who cannot install solar systems for what ever reason have to pay extra.


my poco is only paying back about 40% of what they charge. Plus the best they will do is $0.00 a month bill. You will never get a check, unless you close your account


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

backstay said:


> Dual axis 12 module tracker. $4800 plus shipping. Single axis start at about $4000
> 
> View attachment 159070


10 years ago the trackers were only for just a cpl panels at most
so how much a kWh around there? Currently n. louisiana is at 12 to 13 cents beginning in march this year.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

backstay said:


> Dual axis 12 module tracker. $4800 plus shipping. Single axis start at about $4000
> 
> View attachment 159070


How many watts does it produce? After buying it with all the other hook ups would it be economically cheaper to just use the local utility electric? An off grid house is a different story.


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## SWDweller (Dec 9, 2020)

My local utility has draconian rules. Our way or not at all. The attitude really surprises me.
I would think give the "clean power" mandates every roof top would help a it towards that goal. Somehow in their way of thinking it is a hindrance.
Other POCO's in the state are not so backward thinking.
Because of my location so close to Tucson my county has made it a requirement to have water and power. No hauling water which I know people who are doing just that for more than 30 years. So my system will be and island and for the privilege of living were I do I will get to pay the $14 bucks a month for the meter. I am OK with the concept, I fought with the utility for 3 years over how they were going to connect a 200 amp single phase service. Silly me, I read the install instructions which say, you will do it this way and on another page you will do it this way.
Different materials, when confronted with the issue, they just ignored it.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

SWDweller said:


> My local utility has draconian rules. Our way or not at all. The attitude really surprises me.
> I would think give the "clean power" mandates every roof top would help a it towards that goal. Somehow in their way of thinking it is a hindrance.
> Other POCO's in the state are not so backward thinking.
> Because of my location so close to Tucson my county has made it a requirement to have water and power. No hauling water which I know people who are doing just that for more than 30 years. So my system will be and island and for the privilege of living were I do I will get to pay the $14 bucks a month for the meter. I am OK with the concept, I fought with the utility for 3 years over how they were going to connect a 200 amp single phase service. Silly me, I read the install instructions which say, you will do it this way and on another page you will do it this way.
> Different materials, when confronted with the issue, they just ignored it.


my poco has some conflicting install instructions as well. In particular a "thru the edge of the roof" service. We call it a roofjack service. They have several different pages for varying situations. One page shows a minimum height for the weather head and the drop insulator, another says you can only be this far above the roof. For a few very low roofs, it conflicts. Guess the engineer who drew it didnt know about that.


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## SWDweller (Dec 9, 2020)

I put a 8" offset in my riser as I refused to cut my roof. I have a 25 year iron clad warranty if I leave it alone. I could not find anything in the specs that prevented me from doing it. 
Passed the electrical inspection and the line crew did not even mention it when they connected the wires. The only detail the utility has is of a brick wall. Stucco is vastly more prevalent now days and metal is next. hardly no one does brick anymore.
I call them "cave man electric" rules and attitudes right out of the last century, 1950's.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

SWDweller said:


> I put a 8" offset in my riser as I refused to cut my roof. I have a 25 year iron clad warranty if I leave it alone. I could not find anything in the specs that prevented me from doing it.
> Passed the electrical inspection and the line crew did not even mention it when they connected the wires. The only detail the utility has is of a brick wall. Stucco is vastly more prevalent now days and metal is next. hardly no one does brick anymore.
> I call them "cave man electric" rules and attitudes right out of the last century, 1950's.


I have seen offsets, and they look good. However i dont have the ability to bend rmc


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

Why are your pocos dictating your solar install? Are they the electrical inspaectors as well? Around here, solar gets installed under the CEC and approved by the AHJ. Once approved, the utility company installs the bi-directional meter and that's it.


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## Quickservice (Apr 23, 2020)

Grrrr.... I just fell for another acient thread.


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## SWDweller (Dec 9, 2020)

We are across international border my friend. The local POCO's have a lot to say about how solar is done. The one I have been fighting with requires a 30 year commitment and when you sell the house the 30 years starts over. I know of one situation where the seller removed the solar so he could sell the house. The stuff was 20 years old and cave man electric was requiring huge changes along with a new contract.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Almost Retired said:


> 10 years ago the trackers were only for just a cpl panels at most
> so how much a kWh around there? Currently n. louisiana is at 12 to 13 cents beginning in march this year.


You can get single axis row trackers that are only limited by your row length. They track for the time of year. Dual axis trackers go up to at least 20 modules, 7kW size wise. The utilities in the north half of MN, are net meter(retail price). That’s anywhere from 8 cents/kW to 13 cents/kW.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

kb1jb1 said:


> How many watts does it produce? After buying it with all the other hook ups would it be economically cheaper to just use the local utility electric? An off grid house is a different story.


The tracker price is just the mount, no pole, modules, or balance of system. 
Grid power is cheaper, unless you can get others to pay for it, rebates, tax refunds, grants.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

joe-nwt said:


> Why are your pocos dictating your solar install? Are they the electrical inspaectors as well? Around here, solar gets installed under the CEC and approved by the AHJ. Once approved, the utility company installs the bi-directional meter and that's it.


PoCos get some oversight here by virtue of the “we have to approve “ clause in the interconnection agreement. They can tell you how big it can be, and they get to control a disconnect. Still have to have it approved by AHJ.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

SWDweller said:


> We are across international border my friend.


I'm not talking about the actual contracts for selling power back to the grid.


backstay said:


> PoCos get some oversight here by virtue of the “we have to approve “ clause in the interconnection agreement. They can tell you how big it can be, and they get to control a disconnect. Still have to have it approved by AHJ.


Well I'm reading in this thread where they are dictating installation methods. Drawings for "roof jack" installations for instance.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

joe-nwt said:


> I'm not talking about the actual contracts for selling power back to the grid.
> 
> 
> Well I'm reading in this thread where they are dictating installation methods. Drawings for "roof jack" installations for instance.


I’ve never seen that. More equipment, size and that type of thing.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

There's an example in post #44.

There is a reason I don't like utilities making up rules that override and conflict with code. I'm bound to piss someone here off with this but, the guy that shows up from the utility is not always up on current code. That polite enough?

And the guy from the utility that might know something about code is never anywhere to be found.

As far as I'm concerned, anything past the wires to the top of the meter and those meter lugs themselves are outside of their jurisdiction if approved by the AHJ. 

I believe we are a good storage battery away from the utilities losing customers.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

joe-nwt said:


> There's an example in post #44.
> 
> There is a reason I don't like utilities making up rules that override and conflict with code. I'm bound to piss someone here off with this but, the guy that shows up from the utility is not always up on current code. That polite enough?
> 
> ...


Post #44 is about the masthead above the meter. Why wouldn’t they have input there? It still has to be code, but they could require code plus.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

backstay said:


> Post #44 is about the masthead above the meter. Why wouldn’t they have input there? It still has to be code, but they could require code plus.


I might have mis-read that post.

Did you study code plus as an apprentice?


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

joe-nwt said:


> I might have mis-read that post.
> 
> Did you study code plus as an apprentice?


Code is the minimum, not the end all. I was never an apprentice.


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