# union vs mom and pop shop



## Murphy (Dec 10, 2009)

what is it like to work in the union. Is every new apprentice treated the same.? Will I be treated as someone that has no clue how to do anything and only do labor work? 
The great pay and benefits seem to be my only reason to leave my current job. I enjoy working for a mom and pop shop, doing little jobs throughout the day. I dont think I will like doing the same thing everyday and all day for weeks straight. My ultimate concern is having my own company someday. I like the idea of being able to do things my way and not by the rules of a union. Part of me wants to give the union a shot because Im sure the experience is well worth it, and getting paid to go to school is a win win.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

If you have the chance to get in you may not be able to beat the skills you will learn.

I started out working for small shops and I did like it but there are types of work small shops will never do. You are unlikely to lean how to bend big pipe, pull and terminate large conductors, make duct banks and large site utility work or wire large buildings with all their systems such as security, fire alarm, building automation systems, large UPS systems and generators. Of course you are right that at times you will do the same work for long periods of time. You might be putting the same kind of light fixtures in for weeks at a time 

I happened to end up in a large non-union shop that did the same kind of jobs that the union does so it worked out well for me. I learned a lot and if you want to open your own shop I think it would benefit you to have 'Mom and Pop' experience along with larger work.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Every area is different and what you do will vary, I have seen small shops do all kinds of work from residential, to controls, PLCs, fire alarm, electrical testing and even high voltage work.

You can get stuck doing boring work in any of the different fields in electrical trade.

Union will offer good schooling. (ABC and the others have some good schools but these will vary from area to area) I THINK the union schools are pretty good across the board.

Union offers good pay and benefits (insurance, retirement), some small shops do as well, but if the shop owner retires or dies you may not get the same pay and benefits elsewhere.

I would think that in the union, if there is work you will see a wider variety of work that with the typical small company.

Otherwise for two identically sized shops one union one open shop, work wise no difference.

And there are pin heads in both union and open shop, no one group has a lock on jerks.


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## RobTownfold64 (Mar 17, 2011)

> Is every new apprentice treated the same.? Will I be treated as someone that has no clue how to do anything and only do labor work?


 Absolutely not. If you are a good worker and excel above the others, it will usually be noticed. You'll be doing more tasks on your own while other apprentices are humping material and trimming out or pulling MC all day. 

However, it might take time to be noticed, in the meantime, keep your nose down and don't be a hot shot.

What union in NJ were you planning on joining?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

RobTownfold64 said:


> Absolutely not. If you are a good worker and excel above the others, it will usually be noticed. You'll be doing more tasks on your own while other apprentices are humping material and trimming out or pulling MC all day.
> 
> However, it might take time to be noticed, in the meantime, keep your nose down and don't be a hot shot.
> 
> ?


In addition

In my expierence any apprentice that acts like a dolt (runs your mouth, acts stupid), becomes the project clown, the butt of jokes a good position to avoid.


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## Murphy (Dec 10, 2009)

im trying to get into 351,, thanks for the advice,, I dont brag or claim to better than anyone, I will just do my best and ask questions if im unsure of something. I think they will see that I take my job seriously and hopefully treat me as an electrician and not a helper.


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## RobTownfold64 (Mar 17, 2011)

Murphy said:


> im trying to get into 351,, thanks for the advice,, I dont brag or claim to better than anyone, I will just do my best and ask questions if im unsure of something. I think they will see that I take my job seriously and hopefully treat me as an electrician and not a helper.


351 is doing much better than most of the other NJ locals. Good luck, I'm sure you'll do fine.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Murphy said:


> im trying to get into 351,, thanks for the advice,, I dont brag or claim to better than anyone, I will just do my best and ask questions if im unsure of something. I think they will see that I take my job seriously and hopefully treat me as an electrician and not a helper.


Helper is not a union word. If you're accepted you'll be an apprentice. Keep your nose down and hustle. On union job site's nothing will get you noticed as an apprentice like hustle will. 

Not trying to shake you up or scare you, but some IJW like to treat apprentices like sh*t. Don't be a door mat, for anyone, ever.

All you have to do as an apprentice is,

1) Be on time, every single day and work every single day that's available to work.
2) Hustle, hustle and more hustle.
3) Don't be afraid to ask questions. Other then work related topics, keep your trap closed. 

You stick to these three very basic things and you'll excel as an apprentice plus you'll get noticed by the people that matter.

We have a good relationship with 351, they look to be in good shape for the very near future, or so I heard.


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## Murphy (Dec 10, 2009)

good advice, i will do exactly that


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Murphy said:


> good advice, i will do exactly that


Good. Also, apply those to apprentice school too. Remember their are all types in the union. Some will really rub you the wrong way. the only thing I can tell you is, form your own opinions and don't let the loads drag you down the wrong road.

It's a small world and even smaller union. Your reputation will follow you for your whole career. If you're given a nickname, you're done. :laughing:


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## Murphy (Dec 10, 2009)

slickvic277 said:


> Good. Also, apply those to apprentice school too. Remember their are all types in the union. Some will really rub you the wrong way. the only thing I can tell you is, form your own opinions and don't let the loads drag you down the wrong road.
> 
> It's a small world and even smaller union. Your reputation will follow you for your whole career. If you're given a nickname, you're done. :laughing:


 ha yes.. this is true , I certainly dont want a nickname.. thanks


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## cguillas (Jun 25, 2009)

Everyone gets a nickname... Just hope yours isn't ****head.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

slickvic277 said:


> Helper is not a union word. If you're accepted you'll be an apprentice.


Actually in locals (or at least here) Helper is a word assigned to Residential none journeymen.




> Keep your nose down and hustle On union job site's nothing will get you noticed as an apprentice like hustle will.
> 
> d.


That is pretty much true anywhere in life. Though I know a few apprentices that told me (RUMOR) that on the nukes they were chastised for hustling.


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## RobTownfold64 (Mar 17, 2011)

brian john said:


> Actually in locals (or at least here) Helper is a word assigned to Residential none journeymen.


 Here a lot of union people interchange Apprentice with Helper, I do sometimes too. 


> That is pretty much true anywhere in life. Though I know a few apprentices that told me (RUMOR) that on the nukes they were chastised for hustling.


That's absolutely true.

Not to bring up a war, but Murphy deserves to know. In all honesty, what we would consider "doing good" is what many, many union men would consider being a "worm", "ball washer", "shop rocket", "suck pump", etc. It's all part of the game. Some union men want everyone to be exactly equal, they don't want anyone to excel. They think everyone should be laid off at the end of each job and no worker should stick with a contractor. It's up to you to decide which road you are going to take.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

RobTownfold64 said:


> Here a lot of union people interchange Apprentice with Helper, I do sometimes too.
> 
> That's absolutely true.
> 
> They think everyone should be laid off at the end of each job and no worker should stick with a contractor.


I have heard that some locals practice this? If so what do service companies do?


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## RobTownfold64 (Mar 17, 2011)

brian john said:


> I have heard that some locals practice this? If so what do service companies do?


I do not know of any local that FORCES layoffs at the end of the job, but I do know of many members who say that is the way it should be because it would rotate the list much faster. That is true, but it would completely eliminate any merit left in the union. I like knowing that I could work a full year and keep a steady job by working hard. I also like knowing that the slugs will sit the bench more than work. 

As for a service company, I'm not sure how they would do it. I guess if they truly believe they are all equal they could rotate service workers too


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## JacksonburgFarmer (Jul 5, 2008)

Murphy said:


> what is it like to work in the union. Is every new apprentice treated the same.? Will I be treated as someone that has no clue how to do anything and only do labor work?
> The great pay and benefits seem to be my only reason to leave my current job. I enjoy working for a mom and pop shop, doing little jobs throughout the day. I dont think I will like doing the same thing everyday and all day for weeks straight. My ultimate concern is having my own company someday. I like the idea of being able to do things my way and not by the rules of a union. Part of me wants to give the union a shot because Im sure the experience is well worth it, and getting paid to go to school is a win win.


 

Hoss, I have been on both sides of the fence. If that mom and pop shop is worth a damn, you will see learn more QUICKER than in the union. Small mom/pop shop means everyone is all hands on deck at all times, and trial by fire for the rookies....good for some....bad for others.....

Me....well trial by fire worked.....lots of times....and still does. If you want to "climb the ladder" mom and pop is for you. If you dont climb the ladder there, you will at your own shop. If you want to put tools on for 40 hrs a week......and then go home and forget about the job every day& weekend...the union is for you....helll some guys forget about the job friday and forget to remember about it on monday EVER!!!!!:laughing:


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## Sparky3 (Nov 21, 2010)

A worker without a union has nothing, a worker with a union has something,
a worker with a strong union has everything.


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

Sparky3 said:


> A worker without a union has nothing, a worker with a union has something,
> a worker with a strong union has everything.


Dude, shut up.


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## Sparky3 (Nov 21, 2010)

Frasbee said:


> Dude, shut up.


Sorry didn't know it was anti union thread


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

First I will state I am biased towards unions, having only worked for 14 different non union shops. What I experienced was only a couple of Journeymen on nonunion were good mechanics with many lower paid journeymen who would follow the lead of others(so less of a chance of a wide variance of Tudors in the field) then the educational aspect, I think that the unions offer so many more opportunities, unless you hire on with a world wide group such as Daniels,Brown&Root etc.The unions also have a few mom and pops contractors out there if that is what one desires when they become a journeyman.Local #351 is a respected local within the IBEW with a good scale and package that anyone would be proud to retire on.The choices you make in life right now will have impact on you and your family for many years to come, so I ask anyone who has the opportunity to get into an IBEW apprenticeship, to please for all our sake just do your best.


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

Sparky3 said:


> Sorry didn't know it was anti union thread


That was a knee jerk reaction, so I meant it, but would have preferred to keep it to myself, so I apologize.

I didn't even know this was in the union forum I just click "New Posts" and go from there.


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

JacksonburgFarmer said:


> Hoss, I have been on both sides of the fence. If that mom and pop shop is worth a damn, you will see learn more QUICKER than in the union. Small mom/pop shop means everyone is all hands on deck at all times, and trial by fire for the rookies....good for some....bad for others.....
> 
> Me....well trial by fire worked.....lots of times....and still does. If you want to "climb the ladder" mom and pop is for you. If you dont climb the ladder there, you will at your own shop. If you want to put tools on for 40 hrs a week......and then go home and forget about the job every day& weekend...the union is for you....helll some guys forget about the job friday and forget to remember about it on monday EVER!!!!!:laughing:


 Thier are no ladders at small non union shops to climb if any climbing is done it is on the back of the other guy usually after you have stabed him in it. Non union mom and pops dont want to many guys knowing whats what or they might have to pay more.The guy making twice the money you are is going to do what ever it takes to keep making twice what you are and if you are a threat he will see you canned.At non union shops it is every man for himself and if you get squashed well thats just to bad..


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Noah,

Do you know of any locals that have complete lay offs after a project is over?

Does this include all foremen?

What about the service companies in these locals how do they handle employees.

On another note some locals seem to have rules that keep the mom and pop, shops at a disadvantage with certain rules. Seems the local would be stronger with a good mix of big and small shops. 

All EC's would seem better than just the big boys in the area.


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## RyanB (Jul 14, 2009)

slickvic277 said:


> Helper is not a union word. If you're accepted you'll be an apprentice.


Not sure what they do in the States, but here you start as a pre-apprentice if you go through the union school. You start in school and get 10 weeks of paid work experience as a term 1 pre-apprentice. After that, you are a term 2 pre-apprentice.

It takes a full year before you become a term 1 apprentice. It takes five years to become a journeyman with the extra year of being a pre-app.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

RyanB said:


> Not sure what they do in the States, but here you start as a pre-apprentice if you go through the union school. You start in school and get 10 weeks of paid work experience as a term 1 pre-apprentice. After that, you are a term 2 pre-apprentice.
> 
> It takes a full year before you become a term 1 apprentice. It takes five years to become a journeyman with the extra year of being a pre-app.


No such thing as a pre-apprentice here.
It goes by periods. 1-6. Generally, 5th & 6th period apprentices are finished school and just have to finish their field hours up to raise their ticket.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Mr Rewire said:


> Thier are no ladders at small non union shops to climb


What ladder does the union provide?


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

BBQ said:


> What ladder does the union provide?


 The ladder has just a bottom rung,apprentice and a TOP rung Journeyman wireman:thumbsup: and for those that just have the need to be higher the union has Foreman and General foreman.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Mr Rewire said:


> The ladder has just a bottom rung,apprentice and a TOP rung Journeyman wireman:thumbsup: and for those that just have the need to be higher the union has Foreman and General foreman.


Which is no different than a merit shop.

We also can continue up the ladder into PM, estimator etc.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

BBQ said:


> Which is no different than a merit shop.
> 
> We also can continue up the ladder into PM, estimator etc.


 
And if you can scrap by with the limited knowledge you STOLE as a open shope electrician you can become an owner.:laughing:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

brian john said:


> And if you can scrap by with the limited knowledge you STOLE as a open shope electrician you can become an owner.:laughing:


WTF does that mean?


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

BBQ said:


> Which is no different than a merit shop.
> 
> We also can continue up the ladder into PM, estimator etc.


 Unions have all that and a BA too:thumbsup: you can become the head of the entire IBEW if you choose that path. Of course the conversation was dealing with mom and pop shops and not to many of them have PMs pr Estimators most non union shops it is still every man for himself.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Mr Rewire said:


> most non union shops it is still every man for himself.



And it is the same in the union as far as climbing the ladder.


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

BBQ said:


> And it is the same in the union as far as climbing the ladder.


 Actually the ladder is subject to a vote of the members unlike the non union shop that uses wages as a wedge to drive between workers and made up "titles" to stoke fragile egos..


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

​


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Mr Rewire said:


> Actually the ladder is subject to a vote of the members unlike the non union shop that uses wages as a wedge to drive between workers and made up "titles" to stoke fragile egos..


Once again in plain English?


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

BBQ said:


> Once again in plain English?


 I'll write slower next time :laughing:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Mr Rewire said:


> I'll write slower next time :laughing:


Please do because as it is posted it looks like nonsense. :laughing:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

BBQ said:


> WTF does that mean?



We all know electricity and all technical information pertaining to the subject is property of the IBEW.


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

Sparky3 said:


> A worker without a union has nothing, a worker with a union has something,
> a worker with a strong union has everything.


I seen that saying on a bumper sticker. I think it was on a 77 ford pick-up. You know, most of the quarter panels were rusted out, bald tires, a DIY bondo job, just cruising down the road the other day.:laughing::laughing:


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

Brother Noah said:


> First I will state I am biased towards unions, having only worked for 14 different non union shops.


Boy, if the shoe ever fit.

14? :laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:

You seem like a real keeper.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Dnkldorf said:


> Boy, if the shoe ever fit.
> 
> 14? :laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:
> 
> You seem like a real keeper.



Oh I am sure the problem was with all 14 shops and not the man who never at all posts about electrical work.


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

BBQ said:


> Oh I am sure the problem was with all 14 shops


You know it. :thumbsup:


:laughing::laughing:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Dnkldorf said:


> Boy, if the shoe ever fit.
> 
> 14? :laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:
> 
> You seem like a real keeper.



And I'll bet he never quit once.


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

BBQ said:


> Once again in plain English?


 I keep forgetting you are easily confused what word would you like explained:jester:


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## Rust (Mar 15, 2011)

Just curious what of some of you guys' motive to come to the union forum and then talk bad about the union, I mean there are 20+ other forums?


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Rust said:


> Just curious what of some of you guys' motive to come to the union forum and then talk bad about the union, I mean there are 20+ other forums?



Our motive is to pick on the union guys.....duh....:laughing:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Rust said:


> Just curious what of some of you guys' motive to come to the union forum and then talk bad about the union, I mean there are 20+ other forums?


First off, if you took the time to read I told the OP it could be a good move for them to join the IBEW. 

Second, just like I sometimes have to put up with uninvited union members at jobs you will have to put up with non union members on this forum.:laughing:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Mr Rewire said:


> I keep forgetting you are easily confused what word would you like explained:jester:


I clearly am.


So if you could actually explain what the part in bold really means that would be a big help. 





Mr Rewire said:


> Actually the ladder is subject to a vote of the members* unlike the non union shop that uses wages as a wedge to drive between workers and made up "titles" to stoke fragile egos..*


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

Rust said:


> Just curious what of some of you guys' motive to come to the union forum and then talk bad about the union, I mean there are 20+ other forums?


Freedom of speech would be up there on the list somehwere, but what attracted me was the sign for free beer, slick was buying.


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## Rust (Mar 15, 2011)

How about you settle down it was a simple question, didnt point fingers or name names just curious as to why some of these people get off on long winded arguments trying to badmouth unions? :no:


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

Rust said:


> How about you settle down





Okie Dokie kimasabi.

I didn't get the memo about Nathan putting you in charge. My mailbox may be full. 

I'll look tommorow.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Rust said:


> How about you settle down it was a simple question, didnt point fingers or name names just curious as to why some of these people get off on long winded arguments trying to badmouth unions? :no:



Lets see....well you have the fact that a lot of unions are full of corruption, a lot of lazy(mostly laid off )electricians and raise the cost of living in areas they operate. Need I say more? :whistling2:


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

I do not deliberately browse the union topics forum. I just click "New Posts", which includes any thread that has recently been replied to no matter what the sub-forum.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Frasbee said:


> I do not deliberately browse the union topics forum. I just click "New Posts", which includes any thread that has recently been replied to no matter what the sub-forum.



Me too. Most the time I have no idea which forum I am posting in. :thumbsup:


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

jwjrw said:


> Me too. Most the time I have no idea which forum I am posting in. :thumbsup:


For whatever reason, union topics have a tendency to float to the top of the list.

Whoops, just bumped this one back up again. :whistling2:


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

BBQ said:


> I clearly am.
> 
> 
> So if you could actually explain what the part in bold really means that would be a big help.


 I remember a shop that gave everyone a quarter raise but the told each indivdual that they were the only one getting the quarter.Then the shop i worked at that gave a guy the title of "crew chief" more work but no more money except the quarter he thought he was the only one getting.I had a shop actually tell me i was not allowed to discuss how much I was being paid.


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

Dnkldorf said:


> Okie Dokie kimasabi.
> 
> I didn't get the memo about Nathan putting you in charge. My mailbox may be full.
> 
> I'll look tommorow.


 Whats a kimasabi? Is it that new car from Toyota?:laughing:


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## Sparky3 (Nov 21, 2010)

jwjrw said:


> Lets see....well you have the fact that a lot of unions are full of corruption, a lot of lazy(mostly laid off )electricians and raise the cost of living in areas they operate. Need I say more? :whistling2:


How about the fact that a lot of non union shops carry non skilled muts, who undermine the skilled workers wage so they can leave in the areas they operate.
Rats are everywhere need I say more?:whistling


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## dawgs (Dec 1, 2007)

We are a mom and pop shop and are a union contractor. There are more union shops that are small than large. People seem to think if you are union you must be a large outfit. Anyone in our shop has the same potential to work up to a foreman or project manager just like a non union shop. There really isnt much difference between the two.


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

Sparky3 said:


> How about the fact that a lot of non union shops carry non skilled muts, who undermine the skilled workers wage so they can leave in the areas they operate.
> Rats are everywhere need I say more?:whistling


 Get a thicker skin. Just a suggestion.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

​


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Sparky3 said:


> How about the fact that a lot of non union shops carry non skilled muts, who undermine the skilled workers wage so they can leave in the areas they operate.
> Rats are everywhere need I say more?:whistling




Yep we are everywhere. All my employees are paid 2.00 an hour and do crappy work. That must be the reason we are booked up until may and grew 30% last year in a bad economy.....our unskilled workers can't get all the work done....


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

jwjrw said:


> Yep we are everywhere. All my employees are paid 2.00 an hour and do crappy work. That must be the reason we are booked up until may and grew 30% last year in a bad economy.....our unskilled workers can't get all the work done....


 If your guys were union that one job would not take until May just think get one more job and you will have a 100% increase:blink: The cheaper you bid the more work you get.:thumbsup:


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## dawgs (Dec 1, 2007)

jwjrw said:


> Yep we are everywhere. All my employees are paid 2.00 an hour and do crappy work. That must be the reason we are booked up until may and grew 30% last year in a bad economy.....our unskilled workers can't get all the work done....


Just curious what do they really make? and whats there benefits package?


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

Why does everyone think that every union company is the same..? Are all the merit shops the same....? come on.......


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## Rust (Mar 15, 2011)

jwjrw said:


> Lets see....well you have the fact that a lot of unions are full of corruption, a lot of lazy(mostly laid off )electricians and raise the cost of living in areas they operate. Need I say more? :whistling2:


Oh yeah because the non union sector is the golden child of everything, around here the so called merit shops have just as bad unemployment as the union and that river of curruption is flowing both ways. Also can I get some proof that laid off UNION workers are the only reason cost of living has gone up I wont hold my breath because chances are your touting meaningless opinions about unions because you yourself had a bad experience years ago.....is that the reason you get turned on by making falsehoods and bogus claims about unions?


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## sparky105 (Sep 29, 2009)

IMO the small contractors are the back bone of the locals. there are far more of them these days. Only they always get a bad name because they only call the list when their rockets quit or die I think that this is not an accurate stigma but it is what the members think.
I happen to work for one of the largest privately owned constructors in Canada and it is still even with all the big company workings over 3000 full and part time employees run like a Mom and Pop shop the chances for climbing are great and the benefits sure are made avalable but as for being foreman or project manager I can make almost twice what some of they do riding the service truck with over time and extras. And I have seen a lot of project managers come and go in the last 5.5 yrs. So remember the higher up you are the closer you are to the door.


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

captkirk said:


> Why does everyone think that every union company is the same..? Are all the merit shops the same....? come on.......


 don't ruin this thread by introducing logic and common sense:laughing:


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Mr Rewire said:


> If your guys were union that one job would not take until May just think get one more job and you will have a 100% increase:blink: The cheaper you bid the more work you get.:thumbsup:





We have been around since 1974 and will be here for many more years to come.


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

jwjrw said:


> We have been around since 1974 and will be here for many more years to come.


I have been around since 1960. I wish my daddy had given me an electric business:jester:


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Rust said:


> Oh yeah because the non union sector is the golden child of everything, around here the so called merit shops have just as bad unemployment as the union and that river of curruption is flowing both ways. Also can I get some proof that laid off UNION workers are the only reason cost of living has gone up I wont hold my breath because chances are your touting meaningless opinions about unions because you yourself had a bad experience years ago.....is that the reason you get turned on by making falsehoods and bogus claims about unions?



It's a fact unions have been caught up in corruption. I have never had a bad experience with unions. They are in my area but mainly in big commercial projects and we only do smaller ones. We don't compete against union contractors. It also is a fact when it cost more to build everything and everyone from the guy directing traffic at a construction site to the guy who opens the door at a hotel has to be union it costs everyone more to live. You need to make more to live. If unions were in my area I have no idea if we would be an union contractor or not.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Mr Rewire said:


> I have been around since 1960. I wish my daddy had given me an electric business:jester:




My daddy was a one man shop. We built what we have now together. Granted him having a reputation for doing quality work and some established customers has helped. We are fortunate that we are in a city with a lot of upper income customers that are still doing projects.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

dawgs said:


> Just curious what do they really make? and whats there benefits package?



We pay the going rate and no bennys. After all we are rats....:laughing:


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## BCSparkyGirl (Aug 20, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> It's a fact unions have been caught up in corruption.


there has to be something that every mafia show I have ever watched has guys in the mob running union stuff..........just sayin.......the writers have to get the idea from somewhere..........:whistling2:


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Dnkldorf said:


> Freedom of speech would be up there on the list somehwere, but what attracted me was the sign for free beer, *slick was buying*.


Only the chasers. You gotta buy the shots.:thumbsup:


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## BCSparkyGirl (Aug 20, 2009)

slickvic277 said:


> Only the chasers. You gotta buy the shots.:thumbsup:


works for me! :thumbsup:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Sparky3 said:


> How about the fact that a lot of non union shops carry non skilled muts, who undermine the skilled workers wage so they can leave in the areas they operate.
> Rats are everywhere need I say more?:whistling



The term rat is offensive and places you in the level of a bigot This causes union open shop problems and DOES NOTHING to improve ANYTHING in the work arena.


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## BCSparkyGirl (Aug 20, 2009)




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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

jwjrw said:


> My daddy was a one man shop. We built what we have now together. Granted him having a reputation for doing quality work and some established customers has helped. We are fortunate that we are in a city with a lot of upper income customers that are still doing projects.


And I have seen kids do just the opposite, drive a company in the ground. We deal with what we have and either improve it or trash it. You seem to have improved on what was there for you.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

brian john said:


> And I have seen kids do just the opposite, drive a company in the ground. We deal with what we have and either improve it or trash it. You seem to have improved on what was there for you.



So far I have done well. Maybe I will be a success.... maybe I will be a failure. :001_huh: Maybe a one man shop.  Life is funny that way.Right now I just wake up everyday and try to be the best contractor I can and hope all the hard work pays off.


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

BCSparkyGirl said:


> there has to be something that every mafia show I have ever watched has guys in the mob running union stuff..........just sayin.......the writers have to get the idea from somewhere..........:whistling2:


 This was a mistake made by the early union movement if you look at the history the early workers rights advocates were at a disadvantage most of the companies owned the local police and it was not uncommon for them to hire private "security' who were nothing more than head busters and many were off duty cops. The union advocates simply needed protection and the mobsters were more than willing to give it and it didn't take long for organized crime to see a chance at making easy money through control of the unions.


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## Charlie K (Aug 14, 2008)

Mr Rewire said:


> This was a mistake made by the early union movement if you look at the history the early workers rights advocates were at a disadvantage most of the companies owned the local police and it was not uncommon for them to hire private "security' who were nothing more than head busters and many were off duty cops. The union advocates simply needed protection and the mobsters were more than willing to give it and it didn't take long for organized crime to see a chance at making easy money through control of the unions.


Those headbusters were the Pinkertons. Today they are called Securitas.
That is the reason the Mafia was used.

Charlie


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

brian john said:


> And if you can scrap by with the limited knowledge you STOLE as a open shope electrician you can become an owner.:laughing:


Thats right...:thumbup::laughing::laughing:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Charlie K said:


> Those headbusters were the Pinkertons. Today they are called Securitas.
> That is the reason the Mafia was used.
> 
> Charlie


Major mistakes were made on both sides, the union unfortunately got stuck with some really bad characters for many years. Robbed the members, robbed the contractors and gave some unions a long lasting bad name.

Say Teamsters and most adults think of the mob.


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## Charlie K (Aug 14, 2008)

brian john said:


> Major mistakes were made on both sides, the union unfortunately got stuck with some really bad characters for many years. Robbed the members, robbed the contractors and gave some unions a long lasting bad name.
> 
> Say Teamsters and most adults think of the mob.


Can't deny that.

Charlie


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

brian john said:


> Major mistakes were made on both sides, the union unfortunately got stuck with some really bad characters for many years. Robbed the members, robbed the contractors and gave some unions a long lasting bad name.
> 
> Say Teamsters and most adults think of the mob.


My best friends father was a Teamster "official" for many, many years. The crap the Teamsters are involved with would make Henry Hill blush.

My friends father (who was like a second dad to me growing up) is going away to prison for a very, very long time. It's not directly related to his union, but the connection is there.
What he has done has completely destroyed a once very tight family.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Mr Rewire said:


> This was a mistake made by the early union movement if you look at the history the early workers rights advocates were at a disadvantage most of the companies owned the local police and it was not uncommon for them to hire private "security' who were nothing more than head busters and many were off duty cops. The union advocates simply needed protection and the mobsters were more than willing to give it and it didn't take long for organized crime to see a chance at making easy money through control of the unions.



Not only that, but there was no laws on the books to protect unionism until 1935. In reality trying to organize was quite literally putting your life on the line.

Tremendous strides were made by organized labor by the middle of the 1940's, with union membership being almost half the work force. With the passing of the Taft-Hartley Act and the end of WWII these numbers dropped considerably. Still, the Union movement had successfully created a middle class in Industrialized America.

IMO the Unions of yesterday in no way, shape or form resemble the Unions of today. I couldn't imagine some of these stiffs today getting a free pass on a war time construction project in the 1940's.

Unions are in trouble. First it's the public sector unions under attack, and frankly they made themselves an easy target. *I HATE THE TEACHERS UNION.* Ugh, I hate that the IBEW would even be mentioned in the same sentence with them.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

I want a union of weed smokers, so we can say HELLS NO to the whiz quiz.

From that alone, an empire could be built. Cops in their union don't have to pee, why should I???


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

BCSparkyGirl said:


>


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

brian john said:


> Noah,
> 
> Do you know of any locals that have complete lay offs after a project is over?
> 
> ...


 I have been on jobs where the EC would lay all off when that said job was completed.Maintenance locals usually only hire or rof as needed(not all because they as a norm have continued work on that project. What Ed Hill has mandated with this ce.cw program it will allow the smaller contractors assess to get ahead within the IBEW for a period of time but at a cost to all Electricians in the long run(it is all set up on lower scales so in the future union and nonunion alike will have to lower their scales to compete) This thread has shown many posters that are immature and insecure with whom they are along with loads of misconceptions. I have seen both the evil and good sides of both union and fair workers and I believe what we all need to understand is all the while we are bickering back and forth the GREEDY corporate figure heads are counting their funds generated by our labors. No matter what you say about the IBEW or me, I do try to help all workers with my proactive actions and sacrifices just as our forefathers have done for us. Would we not all benefit if we spent all the efforts of trying to disrespect each other on a common goal of a better way of life for us all that we would then lead a happier life?


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## BCSparkyGirl (Aug 20, 2009)

480sparky said:


>


touche, sir.........touche.:laughing:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

BCSparkyGirl said:


> touche, sir.........touche.:laughing:


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

jwjrw said:


> We have been around since 1974 and will be here for many more years to come.


Is that coincidentally the year of your departure from the womb?

This union / non-union back and forth is just plain reh-tarded. My reason for stating that, is because most people here either live in a heavily union area like myself, or live in a place where union presence is negligible, like J.W. 

It's like debating about what the boogey-man looks like. The other side is always the boogey-man who has his hand on your wallet. Its so easy to get a man spun-up, frame any story into the perspective that the other side is picking his pocket. Its such a worn out trick.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

480sparky said:


>


Ohhhh, GRODY


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

*Vern*: Do you think Mighty Mouse could beat up Superman?
*Teddy*: What are you, cracked?
*Vern*: Why not? I saw the other day. He was carrying five elephants in one hand!
*Teddy*: Boy, you don't know nothing! Mighty Mouse is a cartoon. Superman's a real guy. There's no way a cartoon could beat up a real guy.
*Vern:* Yeah, maybe you're right. It'd be a good fight, though.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

480sparky said:


> *Vern*: Do you think Mighty Mouse could beat up Superman?
> *Teddy*: What are you, cracked?
> *Vern*: Why not? I saw the other day. He was carrying five elephants in one hand!
> *Teddy*: Boy, you don't know nothing! Mighty Mouse is a cartoon. Superman's a real guy. There's no way a cartoon could beat up a real guy.
> *Vern:* Yeah, maybe you're right. It'd be a good fight, though.



*Gordy: *Seven cent's Vern?
*Vern:* I haven't found my pennies yet. But I brought a comb.
*Teddy: *What ya bring a comb for? You don't even have any hair.
*Vern: *I brought it for you guy's............


Mean while Ace an Eyeball are out playing mailbox baseball.
:laughing:


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::thumbup:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

slickvic277 said:


> :laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::thumbup:



Good one...:thumbup::laughing:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

slickvic277 said:


> My best friends father was a Teamster "official" for many, many years. The crap the Teamsters are involved with would make Henry Hill blush.


Can't be true, has to be a lie.

Noah has told me that nothing like that is ever true and if it was true it was a long time ago.:laughing:


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## Rust (Mar 15, 2011)

jwjrw said:


> It's a fact unions have been caught up in corruption. I have never had a bad experience with unions. They are in my area but mainly in big commercial projects and we only do smaller ones. We don't compete against union contractors. It also is a fact when it cost more to build everything and everyone from the guy directing traffic at a construction site to the guy who opens the door at a hotel has to be union it costs everyone more to live. You need to make more to live. If unions were in my area I have no idea if we would be an union contractor or not.


Stating that something is a fact does not make it a fact it makes it your questionable opinion, now how about some proof of your so called fact that union cost more? If union labor is soooooo expensive why would anybody hire them, truth is your full of it, any job unions get they had to bid against 15 or more merit shops to earn that job so if they bid lower how exactly does that make them more expensive....I know I did not see the logic there either but nice try.

Ill take the curruption thing, in the past their was issues, but the same can be said on both sides of the fence and you need to acknowledge that.

Saying unions jack up the cost of living is another huge load of BS, Unions employees get paid on par with cost of living, economic factors control cost of living.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Rust said:


> Saying unions jack up the cost of living is another huge load of BS,


Now you need to acknowledge that is true.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Now you need to acknowledge that is true.



It's only one ingredient of the recipe.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

slickvic277 said:


> It's only one ingredient of the recipe.


Of course, and you know I know that. I am not saying union wages caused the recession we are in or anything like that.

BUT....... higher union wages _do drive up costs_ that is a fact.

Those higher wages come from somewhere and I don't think either of us believe it comes from cutting company profits.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Of course, and you know I know that. I am not saying union wages caused the recession we are in or anything like that.
> 
> BUT....... higher union wages _do drive up costs_ that is a fact.
> 
> Those higher wages come from somewhere and I don't think either of us believe *it comes from cutting company profits.*


Only in a perfect world....:laughing:


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Rust said:


> Stating that something is a fact does not make it a fact it makes it your questionable opinion, now how about some proof of your so called fact that union cost more? If union labor is soooooo expensive why would anybody hire them, truth is your full of it, any job unions get they had to bid against 15 or more merit shops to earn that job so if they bid lower how exactly does that make them more expensive....I know I did not see the logic there either but nice try.
> 
> Ill take the curruption thing, in the past their was issues, but the same can be said on both sides of the fence and you need to acknowledge that.
> 
> Saying unions jack up the cost of living is another huge load of BS, Unions employees get paid on par with cost of living, economic factors control cost of living.



I noticed you didn't comment on the corruption just the cost of living. Even an unemployed homeless guy can see if it costs you more to operate a business then the consumers end up paying more for products. That is what capitalism is all about.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

jwjrw said:


> I noticed you didn't comment on the corruption just the cost of living. Even an unemployed homeless guy can see if it costs you more to operate a business then the consumers end up paying more for products. That is what capitalism is all about.



I don't think he believes in capitalism


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

HARRY304E said:


> I don't think he believes in capitalism


 capitalism does not favor the worker. If I can get labor at $1.00/hr I would do it and if I didn't have to pay overtime I wouldn't.Employees are an expense and that cuts into profit.You stop this 90 week unemployment and watch wages go down as people have no choice but to work for what they can get. With business friendly republicans in office and week unions it is good news for business.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Mr Rewire said:


> .You stop this 90 week unemployment and watch wages go down as people have no choice but to work for what they can get.


 
Which would be good for workers and in turn the country. Unproductive people typically are more depressed, drink and abuse drugs at a higher rate. Having a soceity that depends on the dole for their existance is good for no one.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

IBEW is not the union you want to belong to. The one this guy heads is the real deal, if you can get in, the bennies are pretty fantastic......


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

BBQ said:


> Can't be true, has to be a lie.
> 
> Noah has told me that nothing like that is ever true and if it was true it was a long time ago.:laughing:


 A cute reply to a serious subject.If we spent all this time and effort trying to help each other live a better life we would all be happier and healthier.We have seen evil and good from both union and or nonunion. Our IO now has mandated for our doors to be opened wide to all with no trap door or funny tricks.I do not agree with some of their logic(a lower wage for the CE/CW's) but I do see promise in the effort. One thing that this site is full of is misconceptions or just plain outdated information on what one side or the other are doing this day in time.I live for today and prepare for tomorrow, therefore I make personal efforts and sacrifices for all workers to benefit not just those who have a yellow ticket in their pocket.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Brother Noah said:


> One thing that this site is full of is misconceptions or just plain outdated information on what one side or the other are doing this day in time.


Just keep stuffing that head of yours in the sand .......... your kind will be the death of the unions.




> I live for today and prepare for tomorrow, therefore *I make personal efforts and sacrifices for all workers* to benefit not just those who have a yellow ticket in their pocket



What sacrifices have you made for all workers?


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Mr Rewire said:


> capitalism does not favor the worker. If I can get labor at $1.00/hr I would do it and if I didn't have to pay overtime I wouldn't.Employees are an expense and that cuts into profit.You stop this 90 week unemployment and watch wages go down as people have no choice but to work for what they can get. With business friendly republicans in office and week unions it is good news for business.





> capitalism does not favor the worker


Really?Well the other choice is Communism .

How about those wages in China You know for the ones that are lucky enough to get paid......That is.



> With business friendly republicans in office and week unions it is good news for business


Thats funny the democrats still controll the senate and the white house.

So is it better to have a goverment that is unfriendly to business??

Yup that will make wages go way up.:blink: 

With no jobs.

The Economy has been intentionally engineered to bring down wages by maintaining a flat bussness unfriendly economic atmosphere by the white house and the majority in the senate and at the same time printing money to create inflation to cut the middle class spending power even more, If you think any thing different then you are only fooling yourself..


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

And not to get political, but the head of GE is kissin cousins with Obama.

Hardly a conservative?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

SOME union workers are blind to the fact that SOME open/merit shops are decent fair places to work.

SOME open shop workers are blind to the fact that that MOST union workers are decent hard working men and could give a CRAP about the IBEW as long as their benefits are paid and their checks continue to come.

Some open shop workers would join the union in a heart beat, if allowed, if there was work and if they did not have to take a cut in pay.

Some open shop workers would not join a union except under duress, they hate the IBEW and typically this comes from some mistreatment at the hands of union pinheads. MOST open shop men that fear, distrust or hate the union say the same basic thing, they were mistreated by the union or it's members. Some open shop men fear losing their jobs should the union take over, this comes from owners peddling lies.

And the fact is IMO, to heck with the BS, if you are happy with were you are at now stay there. If you want consistently better wages, and benefits that stay with you through your career then union is a decent choice for some.

The union members that come here peddling that RAT crap, disgust me. I have tried for 30 years to sway men into the union and have brought many members into the IBEW. Members that peddle that rat crap, do more harm than good.

Not one has a lock on quality, no one has a guarantee to "OUR WORK". And in a decent market I am thankful for the open shops, they STOP the union idiots from driving wages through the roof. If not for open shops few locals would have a no strike clause. 
Competition is good for us all.

Tell me the benefit a contractor gets from being a union shop and if you say quality your opinion is trashed. CAUSE THAT AIN'T TRUE.


Sell me on why, if I was an open shop contractor I should switch teams?


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

brian john said:


> Competition is good for us all.



Damn straight.:thumbsup:


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

BBQ said:


> Damn straight.:thumbsup:


 as long as the playing field is level.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Mr Rewire said:


> as long as the playing field is level.


Then the unions have to go as they use intimidation and extortion to get what they want.


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## Rust (Mar 15, 2011)

jwjrw said:


> I noticed you didn't comment on the corruption just the cost of living. Even an unemployed homeless guy can see if it costs you more to operate a business then the consumers end up paying more for products. That is what capitalism is all about.


Perhaps you should have read the post, you would have seen that I did acknowledge your little curruption babble, but this aint the union of the 60s and 70s and that curruption is going both ways buddy. We had jobs where small contractors who lost the bid or something of that nature would come show up on site after hours and tamper....I guess thats not a form of curruption though is it. I hear constantly about the undercutting of employee wages and benefits in the non union sector by the contractor....what does that qualify as, you need to acknowledge both sides of the fence are ugly.


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## Rust (Mar 15, 2011)

HARRY304E said:


> I don't think he believes in capitalism


I dont believe in it at least in the extent we are trying to push it, to be successful there needs to be a perfect balance of socialism and capitalism go all out on one of the other has shown to equal failure.


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## cguillas (Jun 25, 2009)

When I was first looking for a job in Ontario after trade school in Quebec, I had a really hard uphill climb. The union has to maintain a 3:1 journeyman:apprentice ratio and their list had been closed to apprentices for a year. All of the non-union shops I talked to were only interested in guys who had been through the union training program, and weren't interested in bringing on new guys that they'd have to train.


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## Rust (Mar 15, 2011)

cguillas said:


> When I was first looking for a job in Ontario after trade school in Quebec, I had a really hard uphill climb. The union has to maintain a 3:1 journeyman:apprentice ratio and their list had been closed to apprentices for a year. All of the non-union shops I talked to were only interested in guys who had been through the union training program, and weren't interested in bringing on new guys that they'd have to train.


Basically the same thing I encountered here back in the 80s the merit boys wouldnt consider you for even a helper position unless you had extensive experience in the trade or went through the IBEW apprenticeship, so I went through the apprenticeship and never left, its been a good choice up until this recent recession


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## Thomps (Nov 27, 2008)

cguillas said:


> When I was first looking for a job in Ontario after trade school in Quebec, I had a really hard uphill climb. The union has to maintain a 3:1 journeyman:apprentice ratio and their list had been closed to apprentices for a year. All of the non-union shops I talked to were only interested in guys who had been through the union training program, and weren't interested in bringing on new guys that they'd have to train.


 
all employers in Ontario, open or closed are required to maintain a 3:1 ratio of electricians to apprentices.

I don't know of many (if any) merit contractors who would insist on or target electricians/apprentices who have been through any specific IBEW provided training over any other training program.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Rust said:


> Perhaps you should have read the post, you would have seen that I did acknowledge your little curruption babble, but this aint the union of the 60s and 70s and that curruption is going both ways buddy. We had jobs where small contractors who lost the bid or something of that nature would come show up on site after hours and tamper....I guess thats not a form of curruption though is it. I hear constantly about the undercutting of employee wages and benefits in the non union sector by the contractor....what does that qualify as, you need to acknowledge both sides of the fence are ugly.



Do you even know what corruption is? 
A contractor that would tamper with another companies work is not corrupt. Crappy people do bad things. There are crappy people in all walks of life. Both in and out of the unions. Cutting employee wages and benefits is not corruption. Corruption is when your union leaders take your dues and live high on the hog off of them. Take a look at this link....

http://www.unionfacts.com/articles/crimeFraud.cfm



What you are missing is I am not slamming union workers. I am slamming union bosses who are crooked. I'm sure all are not. That said a guy at a merit shop who does not hustle probably won't keep a job. In the union he would keep his job.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Rust said:


> I dont believe in it at least in the extent we are trying to push it, to be successful there needs to be a perfect balance of socialism and capitalism go all out on one of the other has shown to equal failure.


 
Show me a Socialist state that works...Oh yeah, durn I forgot Cuba.

Good point.


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## Rust (Mar 15, 2011)

brian john said:


> Show me a Socialist state that works...Oh yeah, durn I forgot Cuba.
> 
> Good point.


Lets see every country in south america seems to be fine after turning down our attempts to "spread" capitalism and attempting to overthrow chavez, socialism has enabled them not only to maintain their own production, manufacturing, and consumption, but as well helped them to compete in the global economy as well
but hey why am I referring to that when you didnt even read my post right.....I will try it slowly now......Its........About........Proper.........Balance.......
Between........Socialism.........and........Capitalism.........To......Make...........
A....Government........Run..............Smoothly


----------



## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Rust said:


> Lets see every country in south america seems to be fine after turning down our attempts to "spread" capitalism and attempting to overthrow chavez, socialism has enabled them not only to maintain their own production, manufacturing, and consumption, but as well helped them to compete in the global economy as well
> but hey why am I referring to that when you didnt even read my post right.....I will try it slowly now......Its........About........Proper.........Balance.......
> Between........Socialism.........and........Capitalism.........To......Make...........
> A....Government........Run..............Smoothly



Yea Chavez's country never has brown outs, they don't take their peoples farms and give them to the state or any other bad stuff. I hear they are looking for electricians there.....hey your laid off and it sounds like you are a socialist so it looks like a new door has opened for you. :thumbsup:


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## Rust (Mar 15, 2011)

jwjrw said:


> Do you even know what corruption is?
> A contractor that would tamper with another companies work is not corrupt. Crappy people do bad things. There are crappy people in all walks of life. Both in and out of the unions. Cutting employee wages and benefits is not corruption. Corruption is when your union leaders take your dues and live high on the hog off of them. Take a look at this link....
> 
> http://www.unionfacts.com/articles/crimeFraud.cfm
> ...


OH ok so when a merit shop doesnt give you benefits but maybe a fair paycheck while still recieving record profit and then using that to lobby politicians rather than for employees or bettering the company thats not bad at all......why did I not notice that

and for the second part you would be wrong, being lazy in a union will get you nowhere but broke if your still to stupid to not get the point that you will pay dues no matter what. Most companies around here will pick up almost 1/3 more employees off the list than they need to add some competition and weed out the lazy bastards who enjoy the pine splinters in their A**. In the union if your lazy you dont work, but you will still pay the union for that representation, I see nothing wrong with that if they choose to be lazy


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## Rust (Mar 15, 2011)

jwjrw said:


> Yea Chavez's country never has brown outs, they don't take their peoples farms and give them to the state or any other bad stuff. I hear they are looking for electricians there.....hey your laid off and it sounds like you are a socialist so it looks like a new door has opened for you. :thumbsup:


and once again let me identify another poster with trouble reading....there has to be balance between capitalism and socialism otherwise we are doomed to fail. The last 40 years the U.S. has pushed capitalism so hard and look where we are now....this country is in the exact same position as it was just a year or two before the great depression. You cannot have successful capitalism without a little socialism end of story.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Rust said:


> I dont believe in it at least in the extent we are trying to push it, to be successful there needs to be a perfect balance of socialism and capitalism go all out on one of the other has shown to equal failure.



Socialism Has failed every time it has been tryed.


Capitalism Takes the power away from the people that want to control you.

People who get up out of bed every day to earn their finacal independece from those who wish to control them that is how Capitalism works.

Socialism works by keeping people poor and needy and telling people that is the way life is suposed to be and controling every aspect of there lives.

I will take freedom over socialism win or lose.


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## Rust (Mar 15, 2011)

Murphy said:


> what is it like to work in the union. Is every new apprentice treated the same.? Will I be treated as someone that has no clue how to do anything and only do labor work?
> The great pay and benefits seem to be my only reason to leave my current job. I enjoy working for a mom and pop shop, doing little jobs throughout the day. I dont think I will like doing the same thing everyday and all day for weeks straight. My ultimate concern is having my own company someday. I like the idea of being able to do things my way and not by the rules of a union. Part of me wants to give the union a shot because Im sure the experience is well worth it, and getting paid to go to school is a win win.


For the original poster

You will be treated like an apprentice basically, your job is to help the journeyman, fetching tools and materials, CLEANING the work area, and for the love of god ask questions, and dont be afraid to make mistakes its part of the learning process.

As for doing things the "union" way a lot of times it depends on the contractor but safety is number 1 always never forget that. I would say the apprenticeship is well worth it, from there thats up to you.


----------



## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

HARRY304E said:


> Capitalism Takes the power away from the people that want to control you.


I don't know, seems like the corporations are doing a good job and making things swing in their favor, and it's not benefiting me.


----------



## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Rust said:


> and once again let me identify another poster with trouble reading....there has to be balance between capitalism and socialism otherwise we are doomed to fail. The last 40 years the U.S. has pushed capitalism so hard and look where we are now....this country is in the exact same position as it was just a year or two before the great depression. You cannot have successful capitalism without a little socialism end of story.


This country is in the shape it is because half of us don't work and pay taxes and our reps spend our tax money like drunken sailors on pork and supporting people who could be working but instead are allowed to collect a check and get more money for every kid they spit out.


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## Rust (Mar 15, 2011)

HARRY304E said:


> Socialism Has failed every time it has been tryed.
> 
> 
> Capitalism Takes the power away from the people that want to control you.
> ...


The same could be said for capitalism when it comes to keeping people poor, if the corporations end up with all their freedoms and money the people are still poor everything requires balance is what I am saying


----------



## Rust (Mar 15, 2011)

jwjrw said:


> This country is in the shape it is because half of us don't work and pay taxes and our reps spend our tax money like drunken sailors on pork and supporting people who could be working but instead are allowed to collect a check and get more money for every kid they spit out.


There has to be jobs for people to work and pay taxes, and 2/3 of fortune 500 companies along with the top 2% most of them do not pay a penny in taxes and insist that its their way or the highway this is the reality of straight all out capitalism has done for us. Too much freedom has killed this country essentially.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Rust said:


> The same could be said for capitalism when it comes to keeping people poor, if the corporations end up with all their freedoms and money the people are still poor everything requires balance is what I am saying



The whole problem is that you believe SOMEONE is KEEPING people poor. EVERYONE has the opportunity to become someone in the USA. The only one keeping people poor is themselves. Hard work pays off. Sitting on the corner drinking 40's does not.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Rust said:


> and once again let me identify another poster with trouble reading....there has to be balance between capitalism and socialism otherwise we are doomed to fail. The last 40 years the U.S. has pushed capitalism so hard and look where we are now....this country is in the exact same position as it was just a year or two before the great depression. You cannot have successful capitalism without a little socialism end of story.


 Wrong.
The socialism that is being shoved down our throughts is the cause of the economic Depression that we are in right now.

A year or two before the great depression?

What do you think has been going on for the last 4 years..

Are you telling us that 25% unemployment is normal??

Oh sorry i should have used the fudged Government figures 9% please forgive me.:laughing:


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## Rust (Mar 15, 2011)

jwjrw said:


> The whole problem is that you believe SOMEONE is KEEPING people poor. EVERYONE has the opportunity to become someone in the USA. The only one keeping people poor is themselves. Hard work pays off. Sitting on the corner drinking 40's does not.


Blah Blah Blah Blah typical, the corporations dont owe a thing to the very society that made them who they are, any average middle class person can jump right up the corporate ladder and evade taxes and ship jobs overseas just like the big boys do it. Do you take in any news at all, corporate greed owns this country, everyone else is expendable.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Rust said:


> Lets see every country in south america seems to be fine after turning down our attempts to "spread" capitalism and attempting to overthrow chavez, socialism has enabled them not only to maintain their own production, manufacturing, and consumption, but as well helped them to compete in the global economy as well
> but hey why am I referring to that when you didnt even read my post right.....I will try it slowly now......Its........About........Proper.........Balance.......
> Between........Socialism.........and........Capitalism.........To......Make...........
> A....Government........Run..............Smoothly



Well in that case by all means move.


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## Rust (Mar 15, 2011)

HARRY304E said:


> Wrong.
> The socialism that is being shoved down our throughts is the cause of the economic Depression that we are in right now.
> 
> A year or two before the great depression?
> ...


How do you figure
1. our capitalistic government spends monumentous amounts of money on meaningless wars in an attempt to spread democracy and capitalism
2. Our capitalistic government has allowed their corporate masters to basically do whatever the hell they want to the point that all of us have to pay for their mess up
3. Our great capitalistic government has allowed companies stripping americans of jobs to have a nice little tax break and credit for doing so.

You must of went to school in texas where the history books mentioned nothing of the economic climate coming into the great depression but rather focused on the great invisble man in the sky and G dubya the fastest gun in the west.


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## Rust (Mar 15, 2011)

Everything is about BALANCE simple as that


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Frasbee said:


> I don't know, seems like the corporations are doing a good job and making things swing in their favor, and it's not benefiting me.


 Remember corporations provide jobs and if we had a business friendly Government in place that creates an atmsotphere for businesses to open up shop here there would be 2% unemplyment right now.

All you need is two people to form a corporation by the way..they provide the jobs...


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

HARRY304E said:


> Socialism Has failed every time it has been tryed.


 you been listening to to much talk radio ,look at the history of the Ammana colonies.



> Capitalism Takes the power away from the people that want to control you.


 and gives that power to the wealthy so they can control you


> People who get up out of bed every day to earn their finacal independece from those who wish to control them that is how Capitalism works.


who are these mysterious "control" people?


> Socialism works by keeping people poor and needy and telling people that is the way life is suposed to be and controling every aspect of there lives.


Socialism deals with the whole and not the individual ,its about sharing everythingyou have and not claiming ownership of your posessions, its about distributing to those in need,its about having everything in common


> .I will take freedom over socialism win or lose.


Capitalism does not give you any more freedom


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## Rust (Mar 15, 2011)

HARRY304E said:


> Remember corporations provide jobs and if we had a business friendly Government in place that creates an atmsotphere for businesses to open up shop here there would be 2% unemplyment right now.
> 
> All you need is two people to form a corporation by the way..they provide the jobs...


Yes the business friendly enviornment, like the one in china, sure sounds great who needs regulations and safe work enviornments thats just silly talk.


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

jwjrw said:


> The whole problem is that you believe SOMEONE is KEEPING people poor. EVERYONE has the opportunity to become someone in the USA. The only one keeping people poor is themselves. Hard work pays off. Sitting on the corner drinking 40's does not.


The more I've read into poverty issues, the muddier my opinion on it has become.

My g/f is working a non-profit job that is far below her previous title (because we moved), simply because it was all that was available to her. She no longer has the bleedy heart she used to, but her experience with those Welfare Queens make me realize that at the adult point in their lives, without some serious and aggressive re-education, they'll never get on their feet.

She teaches them to save money, create a budget, understand what banking is, helps them open an e-mail account and use the internet. I take using the internet for granted, but many of "those" people don't have an e-mail, much less a computer. Even mcdonald's uses on-line applications. These are just common day things we all take for granted.

The one thing that disgusted me the most is one woman who thought she had an "bank account". There's these companies that set up shop in poor areas and sell these "debit" cards. What many of these uneducated folks aren't wise enough to realize, is that these companies charge fees for everything. They charge fees for opening the account, fees for closing an account, fees for withdrawing, fees for depositing, fees for swiping, fees on everything. This woman had been throwing her money away when she thought she was "saving" her money. Here's link to a article on the topic: http://washingtonindependent.com/35944/prepaid-cash-cards-are-a-pricey-way-to-swipe

Makes me think, maybe I'd be rich if I put any effort into it.


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## Rust (Mar 15, 2011)

Frasbee said:


> The more I've read into poverty issues, the muddier my opinion on it has become.
> 
> My g/f is working a non-profit job that is far below her previous title (because we moved), simply because it was all that was available to her. She no longer has the bleedy heart she used to, but her experience with those Welfare Queens make me realize that at the adult point in their lives, without some serious and aggressive re-education, they'll never get on their feet.
> 
> ...


Well hey thats brilliant you may have the next fortune 500 company idea there, unfortunately this is reality, the rich do actually make and effort to keep the poor, well poor and dont even get them going on the middle class


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

Remember one thing if everybody was rich then nobody would be.:yes:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Rust said:


> Well hey thats brilliant you may have the next fortune 500 company idea there, unfortunately this is reality, the rich do actually make and effort to keep the poor, well poor and dont even get them going on the middle class


 
Yeah because when the workers are poor, they they can buy all the Ipads, 36" TVs, drive two cars. You are either really depressed after being out of work so long (and I understand this) or have a sad misconception of what poor is. 

I lived in POOR countries and the poor in this country live like the rich in many countries.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Mr Rewire said:


> Remember one thing if everybody was rich then nobody would be.:yes:


 
True and if everybody was poor in no time some of the poor would be poorer and other poor would be rich.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Mr Rewire said:


> you been listening to to much talk radio ,look at the history of the Ammana colonies.
> 
> and gives that power to the wealthy so they can control you
> who are these mysterious "control" people?
> Socialism deals with the whole and not the individual ,its about sharing everythingyou have and not claiming ownership of your posessions, its about distributing to those in need,its about having everything in common Capitalism does not give you any more freedom


 
Based on this belief, you have just described yourself as a CAPATILIST PIG?????????

You want your workers to run your company?


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## doubleoh7 (Dec 5, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> Remember corporations provide jobs and if we had a business friendly Government in place that creates an atmsotphere for businesses to open up shop here there would be 2% unemplyment right now.
> 
> All you need is two people to form a corporation by the way..they provide the jobs...


 

No, corporations eliminate jobs. We do have a business friendly governemnt. It is so business friendly it allows the corporations to send jobs overseas without penalty. 

Harry, I have never voted for a democrat in my life. At one time I even believed Rush Limabaugh. I did not vote in the '08 election because I have had it with republicans and have always despised democrats. In the 2010 elections I skipped the reps and dems and only voted for 3rd party candidates. If there was only a choice between a rep or dem, I left it blank. 

Every time I see the mindless republican tripe in your posts, I think I will vote for all democrats in 2012 as my way of giving the republican party the middle finger. I don't see how guys like you are so hateful toward the working people in this country. It is simply not American.

Now, go back to watching your fox news.


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## doubleoh7 (Dec 5, 2009)

brian john said:


> Yeah because when the workers are poor, they they can buy all the Ipads, 36" TVs, drive two cars. You are either really depressed after being out of work so long (and I understand this) or have a sad misconception of what poor is.
> 
> I lived in POOR countries and the poor in this country live like the rich in many countries.


 

Brian, many of the poor in this country live in tents and under bridges, just like they do in the 3rd world.


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

unto every man according as he had need


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

doubleoh7 said:


> I think I will vote for all democrats in 2012 .


 Go right ahead it is you're own financial future that you will destroy if they win..:laughing:


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## doubleoh7 (Dec 5, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> Go right ahead it is you're own financial future that you will destroy if they win..:laughing:


 

My financial future was already destroyed by the trade policies of the republican party. I had my manufacturing career taken from me, and have tried to start over in the middle of a DEPRESSION. Harry, I mean this sincerely, you are a pompous idiot.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

doubleoh7 said:


> My financial future was already destroyed by the trade policies of the republican party. I had my manufacturing career taken from me, and have tried to start over in the middle of a DEPRESSION. Harry, I mean this sincerely, you are a pompous idiot.


Gee was that the 1990"s when they passed nafta Hmm i did not know that republicans were in charge,,,I guess it depeneds on what the meaning of IS ,IS:laughing:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

doubleoh7 said:


> My financial future was already destroyed by the trade policies of the republican party. I had my manufacturing career taken from me, and have tried to start over in the middle of a DEPRESSION. Harry, I mean this sincerely, you are a pompous idiot.


I guess you did not learn the lesson of never depending on you're Employer for you're living.


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

HARRY304E said:


> Gee was that the 1990"s when they passed nafta Hmm i did not know that republicans were in charge,,,I guess it depeneds on what the meaning of IS ,IS:laughing:


 You don't remember the Contract on America


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Mr Rewire said:


> unto every man according as he had need


 So now you're in favor of Marxism..:laughing:


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## doubleoh7 (Dec 5, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> Gee was that the 1990"s when they passed nafta Hmm i did not know that republicans were in charge,,,I guess it depeneds on what the meaning of IS ,IS:laughing:


 
I bet that you cannot answer this simple question:

Has the Republican party been an enthusiastic proponent of free trade for over 20 years?



Nafta is only part of the problem. It has nothing to do with China or India.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Mr Rewire said:


> You don't remember the Contract on America


I remember it well the value of my house went up 482%from that time till 2007...:yes:


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## doubleoh7 (Dec 5, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> So now you're in favor of Marxism..:laughing:


 

It makes as much economic sense for a nation has the corporate fascism that you and you party are for.


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

HARRY304E said:


> So now you're in favor of Marxism..:laughing:


 this is not from Marx :no:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

doubleoh7 said:


> It makes as much economic sense for a nation has the corporate fascism that you and you party are for.


Now Thats funny...:laughing::laughing:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

doubleoh7 said:


> I bet that you cannot answer this simple question:
> 
> Has the Republican party been an enthusiastic proponent of free trade for over 20 years?
> 
> ...


 Oh no I could never answer that...


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

I miss the 90s:thumbsup:


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## Rust (Mar 15, 2011)

HARRY304E said:


> Oh no I could never answer that...


Obviously not, as you dance around actually answering it with sarcasm.


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

doubleoh7 said:


> My financial future was already destroyed by the trade policies of the republican party. I had my manufacturing career taken from me, and have tried to start over in the middle of a DEPRESSION. Harry, I mean this sincerely, you are a pompous idiot.


 Harry isn't pompous.:jester:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

doubleoh7 said:


> Brian, many of the poor in this country live in tents and under bridges, just like they do in the 3rd world.


 
And the majority of them are druggies and drunks. IN this country MOST of those that want help can get it.

I have worked at shelters and my family did short term foster care to give those that need a hand help. There are programs out there to help thise in need.

The real poor in America are in the country where social services are slim.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

doubleoh7 said:


> I bet that you cannot answer this simple question:
> 
> Has the Republican party been an enthusiastic proponent of free trade for over 20 years?
> 
> ...


 
Hand in hand with the democrats, this was a two party deal. Both had their hands out.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Mr Rewire said:


> Harry isn't pompous.:jester:


Why.:laughing:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Rust said:


> Obviously not, as you dance around actually answering it with sarcasm.



Both of were around at the time so we already know the answer..


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

brian john said:


> And the majority of them are druggies and drunls. IN this country MOST of those that want help can get it.
> 
> I have worked at shelters and my family did short term foster care to give those that need a hand help. There are programs out there to help thise in need.
> 
> The real poor in America are in the country where social services are slim.


 Reagan was a major cause of homeless people by cutting federal funding for social services for the mentally impaired


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Mr Rewire said:


> Reagan was a major cause of homeless people by cutting federal funding for social services for the mentally impaired


 Do you have a link to back that up??


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

This could go on and on we are way off track from the original OP inquiry. We should really get back on topic or start a new thread.

This has become the typical almost political union thread that is going no where slow.

And I am as guilty or guiltier than anyone.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

doubleoh7 said:


> It makes as much economic sense for a nation has the corporate fascism that you and you party are for.


corporate fascism 

Fascism's theory of economic corporatism involved the management of sectors of the economy via government or privately controlled organizations (corporations). Each trade union or employer corporation would, in theory, represent its professional concerns, especially through negotiation of labor contracts and the like. This approach, it was theorized, could result in harmony amongst social classes,,Authors have noted, however, that de facto economic corporatism was used in specific instances of silencing opposition and rewarding political loyalty

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatism


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

brian john said:


> This could go on and on we are way off track from the original OP inquiry. We should really get back on topic or start a new thread.
> 
> This has become the typical almost political union thread that is going no where slow.
> 
> And I am as guilty or guiltier than anyone.


:thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

crack a history book dude
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0610-03.htm


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Mr Rewire said:


> crack a history book dude
> http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0610-03.htm


That is a opinion piece from a left wing news paper.

The fact is in the 1970's i could not find a job in fact it was just like today back then...the 1980's got real busy every one that wanted a job had one,,

So i think the people that wrote that artcle might be fudging the facts just a little..If you were around in the late 1970's you will know what i am talking about .Please tell us how the late 1970's were better then the 1980's


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

HARRY304E said:


> That is a opinion piece from a left wing news paper.
> 
> The fact is in the 1970's i could not find a job in fact it was just like today back then...the 1980's got real busy every one that wanted a job had one,,
> 
> So i think the people that wrote that artcle might be fudging the facts just a little..If you were around in the late 1970's you will know what i am talking about .Please tell us how the late 1970's were better then the 1980's


 Actually it was mid 80s before things began to turn around 84-85.I enlisted in the 70s so what do you mean you couldn't find a job uncle Sam is always hiring:yes:


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

HARRY304E said:


> Wrong.
> The socialism that is being shoved down our throughts is the cause of the economic Depression that we are in right now.





doubleoh7 said:


> Harry, I mean this sincerely, you are a pompous idiot.





HARRY304E said:


> So now you're in favor of Marxism..


Harry, you have no concept of what socialism is.

Socialism is when government bureaucrats sit on a corporation's board of directors. Often these bureaucrats have no vested interest in the success of the company, and are just there to punch their ticket on the way to gubbamint retirement.

How many government officials are on the board of GE? Exxon? Google? Go down the listing of companies that make up the DJIA and get back to me how many directors are government bureaucrats. 

Often, it's the opposite. These executives take the revolving door back into a presidential administration to ease open the flood-gates of taxpayer money to their handlers. Like Richard Cheney, Halliburton, and Iraq contracts, I rest my case.


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## The Lightman (Jan 9, 2010)

brian john said:


> The real poor in America are in the country where social services are slim.


and getting slimmer. That Tea is very bitter.
Florida Gov. Rick Scott ordered deep cuts Thursday to programs that serve tens of thousands of residents with Down syndrome, cerebral palsy, autism and other developmental disabilities.
Though a range of state services face cuts from this year's Legislature, the governor invoked his emergency powers to order the state Agency for Persons with Disabilities to immediately roll back payments to group homes and social workers by 15 percent — an amount providers say could put them out of business and threaten their clients' safety.
"lt's not like, 'Gee, does this mean I have to skip a vacation this year?'" said Amy Van Bergen, executive director of the Down Syndrome Association of Central Florida. "Potentially, these cuts have life and death implications for these people."
An estimated 30,000 Floridians with severe developmental disabilities receive services that help them live outside of nursing homes — typically with family or in small group homes. Aides help them eat, bathe, take medication and otherwise care for themselves.But the governor said the Agency for Persons with Disabilities' ongoing budget deficit — currently at $170 million — had reached a critical point and needed to be addressed immediately.
The cuts go into effect Friday and last at least through the fiscal year, which ends June 30. Lawmakers are currently debating what will happen after that.
Providers had not been informed of the cuts.
"No one has gotten any notice," said Linda Cumbie, an Orlando social worker who coordinates services that clients need to live outside of a nursing home — which would be a more expensive arrangement for the state. "We have to find out through the newspapers."
Cumbie said funds for the disabled already had been pared back to skeletal levels. She personally is holding a carwash and bake sale to help out one young disabled client so he can attend a daily workshop program.
Katie Porta, president of Quest Inc., which operates a series of group homes and programs for those with disabilities, said provider rates in Florida already rank in the bottom 10 percent for all states.
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/features/os-scott-cuts-disabled-20110331,0,7724142.story
Affordable housing in the budget cross-hairs 
http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/news_politics/category/uncategorizedTALLAHASSEE — Florida House and Senate budget-writers are taking different tracks toward giving Gov. *Rick Scott* a bigger economic-development arm, and one of the sticking points is whether to abolish a longstanding government fund for affordable-housing.
The governor’s budget proposal last month abolished the two affordable-housing trust funds that have been used over the years to build thousands of units of apartments, moderately priced homes or ot provide downpayment assistance, largely in fast-growing counties where the real estate boom last decade was once driving out blue-collar workers.
The trust funds were supported by a sliver of the documentary stamp tax revenue generated when real estate is sold.
That design would allow the fund to draw down more tax money when the housing market accelerates – and theoretically increases the need for “workforce housing.”
In 2005, lawmakers capped the amount that could flow into the fund at $243 million. And since the housing bubble burst, that amount has plummeted.
Last year, lawmakers put $37.5 million in the fund. This year, the Senate has proposed to go along with the governor and re-route those doc stamp dollars into the state’s main bank account, while creating a new Jobs Florida economic-development agency and giving Scott broader control over how to spend future housing dollars.
The Senate Budget Committee passed its plan (SB 7200) on Friday over the objections of several Democrats on the panel.
“We have real needs,” said Senate Budget Chairman *J.D. Alexander*, R-Lake Wales, whose budget re-directs roughly $200 million in housing dollars into general revenue. Alexander said it would be “some time” before lawmakers should pour more dollars into affordable housing.“I don’t see us working out of this real estate over-supply for some time,” he said.
Meanwhile, House Republicans this week proposed a competing plan to steer dollars for affordable housing, tourism advertising and some transportation projects into a single, super-sized economic-development fund.
The House plan would theoretically preserve some of those dollars for housing projects once the economy turns around.“There’s three bodies that create and approve the budget,” said its sponsor, Rep. *Gary Aubuchon*, R-Cape Coral. “Two of those three bodies have already come forward and said ‘we think the affordable housing trust fund should be gone forever.’”


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Harry, why don't you post something you know about for once??

Like how to cut&paste the codebook.

That time someone brought up Class 2 circuits and you dug up something on PLTC gave me the chuckles. :laughing:


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## Rust (Mar 15, 2011)

Mr Rewire said:


> crack a history book dude
> http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0610-03.htm


Who needs a history book just turn on fox news gosh...


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

Rust said:


> Who needs a history book just turn on fox news gosh...


Yeah, I get my news and info from Rev Jeremiah Wright, The Huffington Post and MSNBC, along with this butt kissing loser.




:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

Dnkldorf said:


> Yeah, I get my news and info from Rev Jeremiah Wright, The Huffington Post and MSNBC, along with this butt kissing loser.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 why would you get your news from Rev Wright ?


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

miller_elex said:


> Harry, why don't you post something you know about for once??
> 
> Like how to cut&paste the codebook.
> 
> That time someone brought up Class 2 circuits and you dug up something on PLTC gave me the chuckles. :laughing:


The same can be said for you...:laughing:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

miller_elex said:


> Harry, you have no concept of what socialism is.
> 
> Socialism is when government bureaucrats sit on a corporation's board of directors. Often these bureaucrats have no vested interest in the success of the company, and are just there to punch their ticket on the way to gubbamint retirement.
> 
> ...


That makes a lot of sense:laughing:


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

The only difference between capitalism ans socialism is who gets to sit on thier butt and reap the rewards of others labor. Siocialism it is the very poor and under capitalism it is the very rich.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Mr Rewire said:


> The only difference between capitalism ans socialism is who gets to sit on thier butt and reap the rewards of others labor. Siocialism it is the very poor and under capitalism it is the very rich.


Can you point me to the country where the 'very poor' are reaping rewards?:blink:


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

BBQ said:


> Can you point me to the country where the 'very poor' are reaping rewards?:blink:


 Duh... this country


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

BBQ said:


> Can you point me to the country where the 'very poor' are reaping rewards?:blink:


I think he was trying to cause laughter...:laughing:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Mr Rewire said:


> Duh... this country


Yeah the very poor are living high on the hog due to your hard work .......... not.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Mr Rewire said:


> The only difference between capitalism ans socialism is who gets to sit on thier butt and reap the rewards of others labor. Siocialism it is the very poor and under capitalism it is the very rich.



The difference between capitalism and socialism 

In a Socialist country the poor are intentionally kept poor and are told it is Good for them and if they try to better for themselves they will be punished one way or another.

In a capitalist country the poor have the chance to become rich by finding a nich in the economy and making somthing of them selves,


Can every one get rich here.? No., But here we have the freedom to try.

In a Socialist country you do not have that freedom..:no:


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## cguillas (Jun 25, 2009)

Thomps said:


> all employers in Ontario, open or closed are required to maintain a 3:1 ratio of electricians to apprentices.
> 
> I don't know of many (if any) merit contractors who would insist on or target electricians/apprentices who have been through any specific IBEW provided training over any other training program.


Of course. I'm just speaking from my own recent experiences. I wouldn't say they were targeting specifically union guys but almost all the non-union contractors that I managed to get on the phone said the same thing to me: "If you want to get into the trade, find a way onto the union apprentice lists. I never hire first or second years. Period."

If a non-union shop never hires early years, then they're getting employees already in the trade, either union trained or from other non-union shops (who don't train first and second years).


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

HARRY304E said:


> The difference between capitalism and socialism
> 
> In a Socialist country the poor are intentionally kept poor and are told it is Good for them and if they try to better for themselves they will be punished one way or another.
> 
> ...


 With socialism their is no NEEd to be rich.The only point of being rich is to have things others can't.


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

BBQ said:


> Yeah the very poor are living high on the hog due to your hard work .......... not.


Free housing
Free food
Free medical care
Free education
Cash handouts
not bad if you ask me and all just for being poor.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Socialism is the new boogeyman with his hand in your back-pocket.

Nevermind the man railing against gays and abortion, holding the cross up high, with his hand on your wallet. But he sure is good friends with tobacco companies and defense contractors, he must be a good guy, as he professes his faith so openly...


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## Rust (Mar 15, 2011)

cguillas said:


> Of course. I'm just speaking from my own recent experiences. I wouldn't say they were targeting specifically union guys but almost all the non-union contractors that I managed to get on the phone said the same thing to me: "If you want to get into the trade, find a way onto the union apprentice lists. I never hire first or second years. Period."
> 
> If a non-union shop never hires early years, then they're getting employees already in the trade, either union trained or from other non-union shops (who don't train first and second years).


This situation is commonplace around here, the merit boys only want veteran sparkies or if you went the union apprenticeship they love you, and this is just for a helper position. They bash the hell out of the union but they sure do love those IBEW apprentices.


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## Thomps (Nov 27, 2008)

cguillas said:


> Of course. I'm just speaking from my own recent experiences. I wouldn't say they were targeting specifically union guys but almost all the non-union contractors that I managed to get on the phone said the same thing to me: "If you want to get into the trade, find a way onto the union apprentice lists. I never hire first or second years. Period."
> 
> If a non-union shop never hires early years, then they're getting employees already in the trade, either union trained or from other non-union shops (who don't train first and second years).





Maybe I can offer a different impression of the message you were getting?

You stated that employers told that of you were looking to get into the trade, then to try the local union hall. 

As am employer, I can tell you that this may be because there is not an opportunity to hire any apprentice, let alone a 1st or 2nd year because of the ontario ratio. 

Some employers don't have the resources to hire and train a crew of younger/junior apprentices, others do, but are not in a position to. 

I've been in this position for the better part of 5 years now.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

The work completed by most electricians is high end assembly line work and can be completed by men with minimal training and good leadership.

Now this statement was told to me by the head of the Local's apprenticeship program in the late 1970's. He went on to say becoming a specialist was they only way to a secure future.


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

brian john said:


> The work completed by most electricians is high end assembly line work and can be completed by men with minimal training and good leadership.
> 
> Now this statement was told to me by the head of the Local's apprenticeship program in the late 1970's. He went on to say becoming a specialist was they only way to a secure future.


 I was a specialist in 8 track tape player installation. I was told to develope a skill set that would always be in demand.The real money is not in the installation but in the maintenance and repair if you can develope that skill set you will always have a demand.


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## RyanB (Jul 14, 2009)

Thomps said:


> As am employer, I can tell you that this may be because there is not an opportunity to hire any apprentice, let alone a 1st or 2nd year because of the ontario ratio.
> 
> Some employers don't have the resources to hire and train a crew of younger/junior apprentices, others do, but are not in a position to.
> 
> I've been in this position for the better part of 5 years now.


Could you explain in more detail why you don't train apprentices?


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## Thomps (Nov 27, 2008)

RyanB said:


> Could you explain in more detail why you don't train apprentices?



We do train apprentices. 

We currently have 12 registered apprentices on staff, all at various levels of their programs. All of them are registered in the provincial apprenticeship program. 

We also have an internal company apprenticeship program including annual review and evaluations. 

My point (maybe poorly explained) was that sometimes employers may not be in a position to offer additional apprenticeship opportunities due to regulation and restriction ie. the electrician to apprentice ratio (3:1) in Ontario.


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## RyanB (Jul 14, 2009)

Thomps said:


> We do train apprentices.
> 
> We currently have 12 registered apprentices on staff, all at various levels of their programs. All of them are registered in the provincial apprenticeship program.
> 
> ...


Thanks, I misunderstood your post. 

I can see how the ratio might affect the small shops, especially a couple of guys just starting out.


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## cguillas (Jun 25, 2009)

I started out in Quebec where it's 1:1 except apprentices are self selecting... If you want to get into the trade you go to college, get your degree, and then go looking for work, like most other fields. There is no cap on the number of students a school can graduate and there is little information put out on the job market for students before they enrol; in fact, private trade schools paint a rosy picture of job opportunities using pamphlets provided by the government. 

It was either last year or the year before that there were 973 graduates in construction electricity on the island of Montreal, serving a population of only two million, during a lull in the construction industry. Less than a quarter of those were expected to find work in the trade within two years.

The result is that some crooked contractors are laying off 2nd and 3rd year guys to hire 1st years as cheaper labour. The government only requires that contractors keep their apprentices for 150 hours. Taking advantage of their desperation, they're paying those first year guys only one hour on paper for every two that they work. Many more just work cash all the time and never get their hours on the book. They're permanent apprentices. Safety standards are ignored and plenty of the new guys work unprotected around some pretty awful stuff without protection. They don't complain because they don't want to get canned. 

In a province like Quebec with mandatory union membership for construction workers, strict safety regulations and a construction corruption squad, it's surprising to me that this kind of thing still goes on. I'm glad I left there and I think every day about how lucky I am to be working in a good shop in Ontario.


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## K2500 (Mar 21, 2009)

cguillas said:


> In a province like Quebec with mandatory union membership....


Mandatory?


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## cguillas (Jun 25, 2009)

K2500 said:


> Mandatory?


Mandatory. Non-optional. Obligatory.

When an apprentice finds his first job, he must get a letter from the employer guaranteeing 150 hours of employment and pay a registration fee to the government. A government employee gives the apprentice a choice of five different unions and once he picks one he cannot change to another for three years. The collective agreement is the same for the entire province regardless of region or union. 

Since you can't easily switch union it can make job mobility difficult since all of the unions except the IBEW are only in Quebec and don't supervise training or travelling. If you want to leave one shop for another you generally have to make sure they're represented by the same union or you may find yourself in for a rough ride.


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## K2500 (Mar 21, 2009)

cguillas said:


> Mandatory. Non-optional. Obligatory.
> 
> When an apprentice finds his first job, he must get a letter from the employer guaranteeing 150 hours of employment and pay a registration fee to the government. A government employee gives the apprentice a choice of five different unions and once he picks one he cannot change to another for three years. The collective agreement is the same for the entire province regardless of region or union.
> 
> Since you can't easily switch union it can make job mobility difficult since all of the unions except the IBEW are only in Quebec and don't supervise training or travelling. If you want to leave one shop for another you generally have to make sure they're represented by the same union or you may find yourself in for a rough ride.


Wow, that's got to be the stupidest thing I've ever heard of.

I was doubtful, but a quick trip to google confirmed it. Just as a quick trip to google would have defined the word mandatory for me, had I found it necessary.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

It must be a french thing.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Mr Rewire said:


> I was a specialist in 8 track tape player installation. I was told to develope a skill set that would always be in demand.The real money is not in the installation but in the maintenance and repair if you can develope that skill set you will always have a demand.


I knew you had a skill, I was just never able to figure it out from your post.:laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## K2500 (Mar 21, 2009)

miller_elex said:


> It must be a french thing.


Defining common words, or submitting to powerful yet unreasonable influence?


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

brian john said:


> I knew you had a skill, I was just never able to figure it out from your post.:laughing::laughing::laughing:


 I also repair Betamax players


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Mr Rewire said:


> I also repair Betamax players


I hope somebody does, I was a 8-track owner, bought a quad amplifier, Beta, If I buy an electronic it always seems to be the wrong choice.


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## doubleoh7 (Dec 5, 2009)

brian john said:


> I hope somebody does, I was a 8-track owner, bought a quad amplifier, Beta, If I buy an electronic it always seems to be the wrong choice.


 
Were you one of those guys with a Chevelle or Monte Carlo that was jacked up with 15x12 Cragars and big tires on the back? And maybe you had one of those Playboy Bunny air fresheners hanging from the mirror while you were listening to AC/DC or Meatloaf?


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## amptech (Sep 21, 2007)

doubleoh7 said:


> Were you one of those guys with a Chevelle or Monte Carlo that was jacked up with 15x12 Cragars and big tires on the back? And maybe you had one of those Playboy Bunny air fresheners hanging from the mirror while you were listening to AC/DC or Meatloaf?


Don't forget the glass pack mufflers, shag carpet dash cover and the air cleaner lid turned upside-down.


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## doubleoh7 (Dec 5, 2009)

amptech said:


> Don't forget the glass pack mufflers, shag carpet dash cover and the air cleaner lid turned upside-down.


 
Ahhhh, the seventies and eightties. I got in on the end of that era in the late eighties. Full frame car with rear wheel drive and a v8 was mandatory, unless one wanted to arouse suspicions of homomsexuality.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

doubleoh7 said:


> Were you one of those guys with a Chevelle or Monte Carlo that was jacked up with 15x12 Cragars and big tires on the back? And maybe you had one of those Playboy Bunny air fresheners hanging from the mirror while you were listening to AC/DC or Meatloaf?


Nope, the only car I ever owned was a 1970 Cuda, traded it in on a truck. I have owned a truck since 1971. My air freshener has always been powered by beans.


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## cthermond (Feb 10, 2011)

I have been on both sides of the fence. The mom and pop shops in all cases paid less and had little to no benefits. With the union you at least had among the best pay and relatively good benefits. 
If you hustle and are productive someone will notice. How many foremen and shop owners do you know that do not like those who work hard fast and accurately, show up for work ahead of time and produce a good product. 

By the way some union shops are small like non-union shops, but you get the benefits of a collective bargaining agreement.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

doubleoh7 said:


> ho*mom*sexuality.


Is that when you think ho Mom's are sexy? If so, I am one too.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

K2500 said:


> Defining common words, or submitting to powerful yet unreasonable influence?


How about defying common sense and powerfully unreasonable?


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## K2500 (Mar 21, 2009)

miller_elex said:


> How about defying common sense and powerfully unreasonable?


Ok, I can live with that.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

K2500 said:


> Ok, I can live with that.


IDK, I'm not french. And the language is irritating, it sounds like someone is trying to speak under water. But I am down with some craigslist French Lessons, anytime.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

miller_elex said:


> IDK, I'm not french. And the language is irritating, it sounds like someone is trying to speak under water. But I am down with some craigslist French Lessons, anytime.



We may have talked about this before, I prefer Russian lessons.

Avoid the trip to Greece. It's a ruff ride.............:whistling2:


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