# Residential bonding question at the service



## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

Hello Everyone,

A friend of mine is building his own house, he asked me to stop by and look at everything before his power company connects him next week and I had a question I'd like to get some opinions on.

I'll post pictures also but where his service enters the basement, his water main enters a few feet away. He's run a #6 GEC from his panel to two ground rods outside of the house. Next to where the water main enters, he's drilled a 5/8ths hole at the bottom of his foundation and drove a ground rod horizontally into the ground, even though the rod is horizontal it is at least 8 feet below the grade. He the ran an additional #6 from the metal portion of his water pipe to the ground rod, and from the rod he ran another #6 across the basement to the black iron pipe where his propane will enter the house. 

There is no connection between the electrical service and the additional water / propane / ground rod set up just a few feet away. I told him it needs to be bonded so there is no difference of potential between the metals - but he insists the rod makes them all grounded so it's fine. I tried but I don't think I did a good job explaining the difference in grounding vs bonding.

I came home and looked up art 250.104 and I'm confident that all the metal systems should be bonded, I'm curious to see what other people think and also if I missed anything.

Thanks,

IMG_3572.jpg

IMG_3573.jpg

IMG_3574.jpg


----------



## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

Sorry, it appears I can't post the pictures until I get my post count up, Hope I painted a decent word picture.


----------



## splatz (May 23, 2015)

If the horizontal rod is a grounding electrode, 250.50 requires that it be bonded to the other grounding electrodes. 

A ground rod next to a buried metal water supply is superfluous. 

What he has done will keep the metal water pipes and propane pipes at the same potential, but not necessarily at the same potential as the electrical system's GEC. So it could be a hazard because if there's a lightning strike or utility line down or etc. there could be a potential between those two. 

In a steel building you can take a shortcut that looks similar but is actually different. The building steel (in most cases) is considered one big grounding electrode. So you can just run a bonding jumper to the metal water pipe supply where it enters the building.


----------



## Quickservice (Apr 23, 2020)

The SEI's around here throw a fit if all the electrodes are not bonded together. Most even require you to bond to the NG and water lines.


----------



## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

Thanks for the 250.50 reference, I’d have to say it is considered a grounding electrode because his whole argument on why it’s correct was to tell me that it is grounded. That’s why I tried to explain to him how grounding and bonding are different.

The water line coming into the house is actually a plastic line, but then feeds into a copper manifold, that copper portion is what’s grounded with it’s own rod and bonded to the propane pipe.


----------



## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

Quickservice said:


> The SEI's around here throw a fit if all the electrodes are not bonded together. Most even require you to bond to the NG and water lines.


I’m not exactly sure what SEI stands for, but the local inspector passed the whole install based off pictures that where emailed in. The inspectors around here are not going into houses due to the Covid and are just conducting business with emails and pictures. Also, none of the pictures that were submitted showed this grounding arrangement.


----------



## JoeSparky (Mar 25, 2010)

joedawson79 said:


> The inspectors around here are not going into houses due to the Covid and are just conducting business with emails and pictures.


Seems like a great time to get stuff wired with a large crew of unlicensed hacks. Note to self. Hire Romex Racer's crew:wink:


----------



## Dan the electricman (Jan 2, 2011)

joedawson79 said:


> I’m not exactly sure what SEI stands for


State Electrical Inspector?


----------



## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

Dan the electricman said:


> State Electrical Inspector?


Oh ok, that makes sense. Around here we deal with inspectors at the town level. As far as I know the only time we get the state inspector involved is if we get into a beef with the town guy over something and we need another opinion.


----------



## HertzHound (Jan 22, 2019)

joedawson79 said:


> Oh ok, that makes sense. Around here we deal with inspectors at the town level. As far as I know the only time we get the state inspector involved is if we get into a beef with the town guy over something and we need another opinion.



Same here, but the state inspectors are mostly for inspecting state owned properties. There is a lot of state property and state funded projects. Also all the highway work, transit authority buildings, state police barracks and cell towers. They stay busy. They are called DCA inspectors here, because electrical contracting falls under the Department of Consumer Affairs.


----------



## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

HertzHound said:


> Same here, but the state inspectors are mostly for inspecting state owned properties. There is a lot of state property and state funded projects. Also all the highway work, transit authority buildings, state police barracks and cell towers. They stay busy. They are called DCA inspectors here, because electrical contracting falls under the Department of Consumer Affairs.


I don’t know how they inspect the state jobs here, I’ve never been involved in one. I guess the state inspector should do more than just settle arguments between contractors and local inspectors.


----------



## Quickservice (Apr 23, 2020)

joedawson79 said:


> I’m not exactly sure what SEI stands for, but the local inspector passed the whole install based off pictures that where emailed in. The inspectors around here are not going into houses due to the Covid and are just conducting business with emails and pictures. Also, none of the pictures that were submitted showed this grounding arrangement.


Sorry... SEI's = State Electrical Inspectors... Covid has not fazed our inspectors, same inspections as always.


----------



## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

Quickservice said:


> Sorry... SEI's = State Electrical Inspectors... Covid has not fazed our inspectors, same inspections as always.


I really can’t believe that they’re doing inspections this way, it’s got to be a huge risk. Who’s going to send a picture of some questionable stuff? There’s always some smart ass too that probably sent pictures of another project.


----------



## Quickservice (Apr 23, 2020)

joedawson79 said:


> I really can’t believe that they’re doing inspections this way, it’s got to be a huge risk. Who’s going to send a picture of some questionable stuff? There’s always some smart ass too that probably sent pictures of another project.


Seems like there are extremes all over the place. I know tons of people that won't even come out of their house, and then you have the BLM and ANTIFA crowd marching in the streets shoulder to shoulder by the thousands. Here in the South you go to Kroger's or Food City and everyone is wearing a mask, and then if you go to Walmart and nobody is wearing a mask. Go figure.


----------



## farmantenna (Nov 22, 2012)

So he's licensed or unlicensed? He's wrong.


----------



## farmantenna (Nov 22, 2012)

my final inspection on a building was done with 5 pictures and I could choose what I sent.

I've seen buildings with violations pass in-person inspections all the time and the stupid electricians don't learn.

Most recent one was house with ceiling blank plate OVER A TUB that had a hanging light fixture installed later when owner got it.


----------



## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

farmantenna said:


> So he's licensed or unlicensed? He's wrong.


He was unlicensed, he’s a carpenter/painter building his own house, doing all of his own labor, and he asked me to take a look at it before the service was energized.


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Is this for a 200 amp or a 100 amp service? #4 is needed for a 200 amp. Also the GEC has to be unbroken so if he is running from the water pipe to the ground rod and then another one from the ground rod to the panel then that would imply that the GEC is not continuous from the water to the panel.


----------



## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

kb1jb1 said:


> Is this for a 200 amp or a 100 amp service? #4 is needed for a 200 amp. Also the GEC has to be unbroken so if he is running from the water pipe to the ground rod and then another one from the ground rod to the panel then that would imply that the GEC is not continuous from the water to the panel.


It is a 200 amp service on the house. I remember telling him #4 back when he was doing it, but he googled something that said #6. I don’t remember what he googled, it was a manufacturer’s installation instructions or something. So later in the day he asked me something and I told him just google it, he then breaks my stones and tells me don’t be so salty about it. That’s actually why I posted it on here, when I told him it was wrong I also said let’s see what the internet says, I know exactly where to post it. 

He’s since decided to bond the two together, but it’s so mutated I don’t know what I’m looking at. There’s a split bolt connector tieing the water main rod to the gec above the main panel or something like that. I just look at it, shake my head and thankfully my name isn’t on that service. 

I feel like it’s a classic case where someone says “I’m going above the code requirements because I’m better”. But all he’s done is go so far outside the code it’s nothing but a mess.


----------



## jw0445 (Oct 9, 2009)

JoeSparky said:


> Seems like a great time to get stuff wired with a large crew of unlicensed hacks. Note to self. Hire Romex Racer's crew:wink:


RR hasn't been here forever. Is he still in business?


----------

