# I was called a "rogue electrician" Agree?



## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

How bad ass is this....


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

You're going to hell. That's all there is to it. 

No, that was a junk panel before you cut a little of the extra plastic away. It's still a junk panel after you were done. You did no harm, in my mind.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

I think the cutting is fine, I do think that if the conductors are 200 amp that you could be cited for bending space issues but it's not like I have not done the same thing.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

I had to do that on this job. The bus ended up a 1/2" away. Sometimes you do what you have to do.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

jwjrw said:


> I had to do that on this job. The bus ended up a 1/2" away. Sometimes you do what you have to do.


This is one of those rare time where you have a genuine need for that "meter offset" fitting.


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

electricmanscott said:


> How bad ass is this....


 Wow and no bonding bushing either.....your just all kinds of silly.....

I would probably go to hell for some of the things Ive done.....


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

captkirk said:


> Wow and no bonding bushing either.....


Or wires! :laughing:


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

captkirk said:


> Wow and no bonding bushing either.....your just all kinds of silly......


?? No bond bushing is required in that installation.


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

jwjrw said:


> I had to do that on this job. The bus ended up a 1/2" away. Sometimes you do what you have to do.


 Just shooting from the hip here but isnt there a 60 percent rule on nipple fill....?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> You're going to hell........ .



No he's not. Joshua will find the launch code, and there will be no one to play tic-tac-toe with him, so he'll launch all the nuclear missiles.

THEN he will go go hell. Along with the rest of us.


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> ?? No bond bushing is required in that installation.


Oh yea your right ....im thinking on non cocentric , I just wanted to bust his chops some more......there is a lot of sexual tension between me and scott.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Been called that and just about everything else in the book. BTW if you go to hell for that the are going to be inventing a new level for some of us.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

I have been called a lot worse here.. so what is the problem.. :whistling2: :laughing:


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

electricmanscott said:


> *I was called a "rogue electrician"*


The question is by whom?


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

But on a more serious note, what do some of you guys think about seu sleeve through Pvc and Lb for a service..? I do it alot and so far no problem but I'm sure it can be argued that the seu is not properly supported...? what say some of you..? rouge or not rouge.


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

I called Scott a rouge because he said he will keep putting cords on dishwashers (which in all honesty is fine and safe) untill someone tells him otherwise even though code says no..


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

captkirk said:


> I called Scott a rouge because he said he will keep putting cords on dishwashers (which in all honesty is fine and safe) untill someone tells him otherwise even though code says no..


What do you mean? A cord on a dishwasher is a listed accessory for every dishwasher I've ever seen. Some of the european imports come with a cord on them already, or stowed inside for field installation.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

captkirk said:


> But on a more serious note, what do some of you guys think about seu sleeve through Pvc and Lb for a service..? I do it alot and so far no problem but I'm sure it can be argued that the seu is not properly supported...? what say some of you..? rouge or not rouge.


Is it going to kill any one, burn the place down, or look like crap? That's how I judge stuff. I don't really care what people call me.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

captkirk said:


> But on a more serious note, what do some of you guys think about seu sleeve through Pvc and Lb for a service..? I do it alot and so far no problem but I'm sure it can be argued that the seu is not properly supported...? what say some of you..? rouge or not rouge.


I like to use common sense on those type of things.. sometimes it answers any questions you may have.. :thumbsup:


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

captkirk said:


> But on a more serious note, what do some of you guys think about seu sleeve through Pvc and Lb for a service..? I do it alot and so far no problem but I'm sure it can be argued that the seu is not properly supported...? what say some of you..? rouge or not rouge.


Whether or not that's compliant depends a lot on the conduit size selected, and whether or not it's a complete raceway from A to B.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> I like to use common sense on those type of things.. sometimes it answers any questions you may have.. :thumbsup:


That makes no sense at all.:no:

You could common sense your way into many inspection failures or is it that you don't get inspections?


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> You could common sense your way into many inspection failures or is it that you don't get inspections?


A large majority of service calls here don't get inspected, if the POCO has to be involved then yeah but otherwise no. Just throwing that out there.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Bob Badger said:


> That makes no sense at all.:no:
> 
> You could common sense your way into many inspection failures or is it that you don't get inspections?


It's entirely possible that a lot of his work, like mine, does not require an inspection. It's really no excuse, but I can't pretend that my approach to some jobs isn't based on whether there will be an inspection or not. The phrase, "not technically compliant, but not blatantly unsafe", sometimes rings in my ear.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> What do you mean? A cord on a dishwasher is a listed accessory for every dishwasher I've ever seen.


Yes, but to meet the UL requirements you must use the cord that is listed for that unit, no GE cords on Maytag DWs. (I know it is stupid)

(B4T, the above is a perfect example of 'common sense' not having a thing to do with the requirements)


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> What do you mean? A cord on a dishwasher is a listed accessory for every dishwasher I've ever seen. Some of the european imports come with a cord on them already, or stowed inside for field installation.


 doesnt that mean that you have to use one of their cords and not any ole cord...?


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

captkirk said:


> doesnt that mean that you have to use one of their cords and not any ole cord...?



That is the idea but, like that gets followed.


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

I was busted once on it and told by another that you cant do it soo thats enough for me to just use a breaker lock. And amazingly one of the benifits is its quicker..safe and compliant.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

I have also been told I "cherry pick" what UL standards I follow and which ones I think suck. I think I said fine by me.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Bob Badger said:


> Yes, but to meet the UL requirements you must use the cord that is listed for that unit, no GE cords on Maytag DWs. (I know it is stupid)
> 
> (B4T, the above is a perfect example of 'common sense' not having a thing to do with the requirements)


Yeah, I know. 

My dishwasher and garbage disposal cords say "listed replacement power tool cord" on the UL tag. That should make them pretty universal. :thumbsup: :laughing:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Jlarson said:


> I have also been told I "cherry pick" what UL standards I follow and which ones I think suck. I think I said fine by me.



Smörgåsbord.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> That makes no sense at all.:no:
> 
> You could common sense your way into many inspection failures or is it that you don't get inspections?


YES.. my jobs get inspections.. 

My "common sense" answer was more about creating a hazard with what ever you are working with.

Sometimes you are between a rock and a hard place out in the field and you need to make a judgment call..


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Smörgåsbord.


Why are we involving a Swedish buffet type thing in this discussion? :laughing:


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

jwjrw said:


> I had to do that on this job. The bus ended up a 1/2" away. Sometimes you do what you have to do.












Is it just me or does this look to anybody like a 30" wide clearance issue?


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

MDShunk said:


> This is one of those rare time where you have a genuine need for that "meter offset" fitting.




I use the offset even when there is not a real need. Its cheaper than two 2" connectors and two lock nuts. Pretty common in my area.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

macmikeman said:


> Is it just me or does this look to anybody like a 30" wide clearance issue?


Must be just you. There is nothing in front of the panel and it sticks out past the meter conduit. The water hose reel is also not in the 30" space. This was an inspected and passed job.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

captkirk said:


> I was busted once on it and told by another that you cant do it soo thats enough for me to just use a breaker lock. And amazingly one of the benifits is its quicker..safe and compliant.


It is only quicker if the appliances are on site and you do not have to go back. :thumbsup:


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

"Well you see, your Honor, if Mrs. O'Leary's cow had only been a Maytag, instead of a GE...."


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Aw, we all know a using a GE cord on a Maytag ain't going to make it burst into flames as soon as it's plugged in. It's just another way for corporations to make more money.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

It ain't the manufacturers, it is UL.

The manufacturers would have to pay UL to test their cords on every other brand and model DW out there.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> It ain't the manufacturers, it is UL.
> 
> The manufacturers would have to pay UL to test their cords on every other brand and model DW out there.


Yeah but someone is making more money now that you can't uses the same cord on all brands.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

How's this for rogue. I don't have any UL standards books, no white book, no green book no what ever freaking color they are on now book.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

macmikeman said:


> Is it just me or does this look to anybody like a 30" wide clearance issue?


I just checked 110.26 for where the 30" starts and ends.. nothing there so it must start at right edge of panel..

I figured the 30" would be centered.. :blink:


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> I just checked 110.26 for where the 30" starts and ends.. nothing there so it must start at right edge of panel..
> 
> I figured the 30" would be centered.. :blink:


 



You do not have to be centered in your 30". It can all be on one side


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> You do not have to be centered in your 30". It can all be on one side


Now say the panel is in a closet.. with the door closed it is only 12" but open closet door (hinged) it is 30" and more.

What about if door was a slider..


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

electricmanscott said:


> How bad ass is this....


 I've done that before.......:thumbup:


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> Now say the panel is in a closet.. with the door closed it is only 12" but open closet door (hinged) it is 30" and more.
> 
> What about if door was a slider..


 

That call is so borderlined, some inspectors will let it go, and some won't. The last time I was in that situation, there was an air handler in a closet and I wanted my disco on top. The disco was only 6" from door with door closed. The inspector let it slide. But I checked ahead of time, to be sure, and make him feel like he's somebody


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> Now say the panel is in a closet.. with the door closed it is only 12" but open closet door (hinged) it is 30" and more.
> 
> What about if door was a slider..


http://ecmweb.com/nec/code-basics/working_space_enough_0109/


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

captkirk said:


> Just shooting from the hip here but isnt there a 60 percent rule on nipple fill....?





Yep.....but it was grandfathered in......they stuffed em so full when they were built in the 1960's that you could not get another wire in. Our Ahj allows us to put it back how we found it.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> A large majority of service calls here don't get inspected, if the POCO has to be involved then yeah but otherwise no. Just throwing that out there.



No one permits service and repair work here unless it turns into a panel change or something big....


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Maybe it is the angle of the photo. It looks like about 2 inches of ok space on the right side between the can and adjacent wall, ok so far. Then add 14-1/2" inches width of panel, so now we are about 16-1/2". Then between the left side of the panel and the handle of that fixed hose reel that sticks out could another panel of equal size fit in that space? Not the way the photo looks, but as you said it passed inspection so it must be the photo. If you were to take a careful look at the photo you will see what I mean. And yes the 30" rule does not have to be centered, but it does have to be a full 30". It just doesn't look like 30" is there to me using your panel as the visual reference.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Another small thing, and again it could be the angle of the photo, because you said you have 30" and also passed inspection, and we all know inspectors never overlook or miss things like this. That demark box for the phone system (the one with the padlock) also looks from the photo to be intruding into the 30" clearance space, but I bet if 480 had a copy of photoshop he could fix the problem for you and we could all sleep better at night. :thumbsup:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

macmikeman said:


> ........... but I bet if 480 had a copy of photoshop he could fix the problem for you and we could all sleep better at night. :thumbsup:









​ 

:laughing:​


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Mahalo. ....:sleeping:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

He mea iki....:icon_lol:


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

macmikeman said:


> Maybe it is the angle of the photo. It looks like about 2 inches of ok space on the right side between the can and adjacent wall, ok so far. Then add 14-1/2" inches width of panel, so now we are about 16-1/2". Then between the left side of the panel and the handle of that fixed hose reel that sticks out could another panel of equal size fit in that space? Not the way the photo looks, but as you said it passed inspection so it must be the photo. If you were to take a careful look at the photo you will see what I mean. And yes the 30" rule does not have to be centered, but it does have to be a full 30". It just doesn't look like 30" is there to me using your panel as the visual reference.




The thing with the AHJ's in the 3 counties we do most of our work is......
If it is an existing service....and it was legal when the house was built or passed whether legal or not....the installation is grandfathered in and you can replace it like it is. All nipples on houses built here in the 70's will be overfilled. We are required to update grounding and riser height but unless it's a safety issue they understand there is not a lot you can in some situations. The old panel was a split bus and without relocating poco and cable and phone that was the best choice I could see.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

macmikeman said:


> Another small thing, and again it could be the angle of the photo, because you said you have 30" and also passed inspection, and we all know inspectors never overlook or miss things like this. That demark box for the phone system (the one with the padlock) also looks from the photo to be intruding into the 30" clearance space, but I bet if 480 had a copy of photoshop he could fix the problem for you and we could all sleep better at night. :thumbsup:




Actually you are correct about the handle. It is in the 30" I believe. This would never pass today if done new. Up until last year when I did service changes at a duplex I could stick the riser back at the 8ft heiht under the soffit. Now we have to bring risers up to code and grounding.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Ok, now I got you admitting there isn't 30", which you said there was before. Now how about that demark box......:laughing:



Just ****ing with you man, It wouldn't bother me in the least to pass that job....


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

macmikeman said:


> Ok, now I got you admitting there isn't 30", which you said there was before. Now how about that demark box......:laughing:
> 
> 
> 
> Just ****ing with you man, It wouldn't bother me in the least to pass that job....




The handle very well could be in the 30" I wasn't even thinking of that when I said the reel was not in the way. :no::laughing:


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## kbsparky (Sep 20, 2007)

captkirk said:


> But on a more serious note, what do some of you guys think about seu sleeve through Pvc and Lb for a service..? I do it alot and so far no problem but I'm sure it can be argued that the seu is not properly supported...? what say some of you..? rouge or not rouge.


We _never_ install SEU cable for a service. If you're going to use conduit, why not use proper wire in that conduit, such as XHHW or THHN?


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

kbsparky said:


> We _never_ install SEU cable for a service. If you're going to use conduit, why not use proper wire in that conduit, such as XHHW or THHN?


Because many times it's easier to run the se cable into a panel. I sleeve the run from the meter to the panel almost every service I do.


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## goose134 (Nov 12, 2007)

480sparky said:


> No he's not. Joshua will find the launch code, and there will be no one to play tic-tac-toe with him, so he'll launch all the nuclear missiles.
> 
> THEN he will go go hell. Along with the rest of us.



Wow. You're going back a ways for this one. Just watch the DVD or something?


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

electricmanscott said:


> How bad ass is this....


I am OK with the install. it's that crap aluminum buss panel that is the rogue part. What did you save $10.:no:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

goose134 said:


> Wow. You're going back a ways for this one. Just watch the DVD or something?



I have the DVD, but I haven't watched it for a couple years. I just recognized the line.




"The only winning move is, not to play."


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

sbrn33 said:


> I am OK with the install. it's that crap aluminum buss panel that is the rogue part. What did you save $10.:no:


Since this question has never been asked before.. let me bring it out in the open..

Since many of you say using AL conductors is perfectly fine for services, why is having an AL buss *not* the same thing?? :blink:


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

That's total bush league, hack work. If I were an inspector you would fail. That is not how that panel was intended to be used. Bad job.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> Since this question has never been asked before.. let me bring it out in the open..
> 
> Since many of you say using AL conductors is perfectly fine for services, why is having an AL buss *not* the same thing?? :blink:


I have seen and installed Al bus panels in humid, damp pump and well houses and have yet to see a failure.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

I'm sure you are a rouge electrician!


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Jlarson said:


> I have seen and installed Al bus panels in humid, damp pump and well houses and have yet to see a failure.


I have installed in unheated garage in couple homes with proper alum bussbar but IMO they just not last very long before it get fuber'ed the last one I have was HOM series that was only last me 6 years and they called me to replace it.

The curpit was the stupid sliding contractor he ding up the SE cable and got the water leak in and fuber'ed the whole thing so he end up got the bill to replace it and replace with QO series and done with it.

Merci.
Marc


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Ok I compiled a list of stuff I do;

-run NM-B through one big ko
-Use the klien sta kon pliers on all brands of sta kons
-make my own raceway transition fittings
-put EMT and PVC connectors into myers hubs
-I turn fittings to tighten the lock nuts sometimes
-Over fill jboxes a little bit on old work as a last resort
-use self tappers as ground screws as a last resort
-use LMFC fittings on LMNFC as long as they are bonded 
-build panels with no ul sticker
-and I don't follow directions to the letter
-I use scotchkote too
-and as a catch all to what I forgot I flip the bird to most UL standards

and yes I know there is a special place in hell for me 
And ya know what I don't really care. Going against the grain and being outside the box is fun. And if you say you have never done any of this you lie.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

frenchelectrican said:


> I have installed in unheated garage in couple homes with proper alum bussbar but IMO they just not last very long before it get fuber'ed the last one I have was HOM series that was only last me 6 years and they called me to replace it.
> 
> The curpit was the stupid sliding contractor he ding up the SE cable and got the water leak in and fuber'ed the whole thing so he end up got the bill to replace it and replace with QO series and done with it.
> 
> ...


I had one get sprayed down with sodium hypoclorite the other day and it's still going, the vapors did nothing to it.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Jlarson said:


> I had one get sprayed down with sodium hypoclorite the other day and it's still going, the vapors did nothing to it.


 
Instering that still held up.

most POS will be done with soduim Hypoclorite espcally if contreacted strength.

Merci.
Marc


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Jlarson said:


> Ok I compiled a list of stuff I do;
> 
> -run NM-B through one big ko
> -Use the klien sta kon pliers on all brands of sta kons
> ...


You forgot: Peek at the customer's boobs (if customer is hot female of course)


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

frenchelectrican said:


> Instering that still held up.
> 
> most POS will be done with soduim Hypoclorite espcally if contreacted strength.
> 
> ...


Either 6 or 12.5% I didn't have time to look. Got all over one side and into a ko. Got all over a combo starter and a bolt on panel board too. :clap:


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

macmikeman said:


> You forgot: Peek at the customer's boobs (if customer is hot female of course)


That is implied. 

I also forgot using my linemans to strip wire. :thumbup:


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

Jlarson said:


> Ok I compiled a list of stuff I do;
> 
> -run NM-B through one big ko
> -Use the klien sta kon pliers on all brands of sta kons
> ...



Thats the difference between us and DIY, we know how to break the rules safely.

~Matt


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

TOOL_5150 said:


> Thats the difference between us and DIY, we know how to break the rules safely.
> 
> ~Matt


DIY's don't even know there are rules, I read the rules, think some of them suck and substituted my own :thumbup:


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

Jlarson said:


> DIY's don't even know there are rules, I read the rules, think some of them suck and substituted my own :thumbup:


Thats how it goes sometimes.

~Matt


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Magnettica said:


> That's total bush league, hack work. If I were an inspector you would fail. That is not how that panel was intended to be used. Bad job.




:001_huh:

You are kidding right?


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

sbrn33 said:


> I am OK with the install. it's that crap aluminum buss panel that is the rogue part. What did you save $10.:no:





Black4Truck said:


> Since this question has never been asked before.. let me bring it out in the open..
> 
> Since many of you say using AL conductors is perfectly fine for services, why is having an AL buss *not* the same thing?? :blink:





Jlarson said:


> I have seen and installed Al bus panels in humid, damp pump and well houses and have yet to see a failure.




The panel is fine. I use the same thing all the time as do most guys around here. I don't fall for the copper is better nonsense.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

electricmanscott said:


> I don't fall for the copper is better nonsense.


F-ing rogues running the trade. :laughing:


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## Ima Hack (Aug 31, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> That's total bush league, hack work. If I were an inspector you would fail. That is not how that panel was intended to be used. Bad job.


What would the code reference be for the failed inspection?


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## yucan2 (Jun 9, 2009)

Jlarson said:


> Ok I compiled a list of stuff I do;
> 
> 
> -I turn fittings to tighten the lock nuts sometimes


Is that illegal?


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## I_get_shocked (Apr 6, 2009)

yucan2 said:


> Is that illegal?


Isnt the lock nut designed to remove enough paint to create a bond? Aren't you bypassing this step by installing it this way as the locknut never drags on the painted surface


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

I_get_shocked said:


> Isnt the lock nut designed to remove enough paint to create a bond? Aren't you bypassing this step by installing it this way as the locknut never drags on the painted surface


 Best bet: old screwdriver and hammer, or Quebec hammer (PLIERS).:jester:


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

MDShunk said:


> You're going to hell. That's all there is to it.
> 
> No, that was a junk panel before you cut a little of the extra plastic away. It's still a junk panel after you were done. You did no harm, in my mind.


Wev'e got a guy around here who will take a forty cicuit panel, cut the busbars apart 2/3rds of the way down, breaker out into a transfer switch and then feed back into the remaining 1/3. He's going to hell......


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

yucan2 said:


> Is that illegal?


According to a product engineer it is, I could damage the fitting and not allow the conduit to seat properly.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

I_get_shocked said:


> Isnt the lock nut designed to remove enough paint to create a bond? Aren't you bypassing this step by installing it this way as the locknut never drags on the painted surface


The teeth still bite in and the fitting body scrapes paint too. Not going to lose any sleep over it.


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