# Neutral v.s. Grounded conductor?



## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

A grounded conductor is the one that's grounded, it isn't always a neutral (depending on the type of service)


----------



## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*?*

So, some grounding conductors are neutrals and some are not? 

Are all neutrals grounding conductors or none so some?? 

Is a conductor of a corner ground 240V delta neutral or grounded conductor or neither ?


----------



## Mr. Troubleshooter (Aug 21, 2011)

Cletis said:


> Can anyone further simplify the distinction between a neutral and a grounded conductor (branch cir. neutral v.s. service grounded conductor (some call neutral) ??
> 
> Hypothetically,
> 
> If someone goes up and cuts the grounded conductor on line side of service drop what would happen inside the house ??? Everything metal in house gets hot ??


Well I have never worked on the line side of a service before so I don't know what will happen if someone would cut the grounded conductor. But my understanding in the difference between a "Grounded conductor" and a "Neutral" is that a grounded conductor is in a 2 wire system. Like for instance, a lighting circuit, where there is just a hot, and a grounded conductor. The grounded conductor is not a neutral in this case. Now let's take a multi wire branch circuit for instance, the grounded conductor is a neutral in this case. A neutral is always a grounded conductor, but a grounded conductor isnt always a neutral


----------



## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*?*

But, both can carry current and kill you right?


----------



## ibuzzard (Dec 28, 2008)

Cletis said:


> Are all neutrals grounding conductors or none so some??


Cletoris, do you even understand the difference between a "grounded" vs "grounding" conductor?


----------



## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*..*



ibuzzard said:


> Cletoris, do you even understand the difference between a "grounded" vs "grounding" conductor?


Sure, one normally carries current and one does not


----------



## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*here..*

Here is one that always messed me up. 

On a corner grounded delta system. Is the grounded service conductor on the B phase a neutral or grounded conductor ??


----------



## Mr. Troubleshooter (Aug 21, 2011)

Cletis said:


> Sure, one normally carries current and one does not


The "grounding conductor" is the equipment ground and the "grounded conductor" is the circuit ground.


----------



## 3xdad (Jan 25, 2011)

..................


----------



## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

There have been a lot of questions asked and they have been asked in a way that makes me think there is some confusion.

As far as a neutral conductor, may I suggest the definition section of the NEC.

A grounded conductor is one that is intentionally referenced to "ground".

For most of us, the neutral is the grounded conductor. I was once asked what the difference was between a ground and a neutral. My answer was the ground should only carry fault current and the neutral carries current during a normal operation. The reason I answered this way is that most of the time, the neutral and ground are at the same potential and if you hook your load to a "hot" and a "ground" it will work (although it creates a condition for someone to get shocked).

Now as far as the OP question (assuming a single-phase service) about the service side neutral (aka grounded conductor) being cut, we get into a more complex set of conditions. The reason is all of the parallel circuits (either the 120-volt A-phase OR the 120-volt B phase) become connected in series with the opposite phase. 

This has been covered pretty well in some recent threads. Someone may be kind enough to post a link, but if you do a search you should be able to find the thread.


----------



## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

Cletis said:


> Here is one that always messed me up.
> 
> On a corner grounded delta system. Is the grounded service conductor on the B phase a neutral or grounded conductor ??


I believe if you look at the definition of neutral in the NEC you will find this to be a grounded conductor and not a neutral.


----------



## ibuzzard (Dec 28, 2008)

One of the best investments you could make, then, would be - besides a copy of the current NEC - a copy of Soares Book on Grounding and Bonding:

http://www.amazon.com/Soares-Book-Grounding-Bonding-2011-NEC/dp/1890659576

No offense to you sir - well,actually, I do intend to offend a little - I have to ask you how you can in good conscience be running an Electrical Contracting Business, with men under your care and supervision, and continually drop these little-bombs-of misunderstanding?

I concur with one of your earlier musings - You need to shut down your operation, work only by yourself,putting only yourself plus your customers at risk,instead of also endangering those under your watch-care.

Get yourself into an apprenticeship,or take some serious college classes.I've no idea where you are really at - pretty sure it is not in Ga. - but the only reason you could be running a business is because you're living where there is poor or no regulation of Electrical Contractors.

You are a hazzard to customers, your employees, and yourself.Just being honest, Bro.


----------



## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

Cletis said:


> So, some grounding conductors are neutrals and some are not?
> 
> Are all neutrals grounding conductors or none so some??
> 
> Is a conductor of a corner ground 240V delta neutral or grounded conductor or neither ?


There's a difference between "grounded" and "grounding."

Your corner grounded delta has a grounded conductor and it's a phase. Not a neutral.


----------



## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*ok*



ibuzzard said:


> One of the best investments you could make, then, would be - besides a copy of the current NEC - a copy of Soares Book on Grounding and Bonding:
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Soares-Book-Grounding-Bonding-2011-NEC/dp/1890659576
> 
> ...



Ok. Thanks for advise. Give me 2 weeks to close up shop then I'll go back to bartending. I needed a nudge anyhow...



erics37 said:


> There's a difference between "grounded" and "grounding."
> 
> Your corner grounded delta has a grounded conductor and it's a phase. Not a neutral.


OH ****! 


Ok. So, in essence on a residential service you have your grounding electrode connected to the grounding conductor which is connected to the terminal bar that is also connected to the grounded conductor which also connects to branch circuit neutrals and grounding conductors...Furthermore, when you bond your metal of the enclosures on systems you connect via terminal strips, lugs,etc...making wrenchtight connections of your grounded conductor, grounding conductors, and also grounded conductors all going back to the neutral point of the system. Furthermore, neutrals carry current normally, grounded conductors carry current sometimes, and grounding conductors dont' normally carry current unless some jackass runs a 3 wire sub-panel or bootlegs the neutral connection at devices. In summary, anything green or white just twist together and wrap black tape around. 

Out!


----------



## ibuzzard (Dec 28, 2008)

Cletis said:


> In summary, anything green or white just twist together and wrap black tape around.


Another of those "bombs-of misunderstanding".

I'm pretty sure you're only a troll, and not as ignorant as the image you try to portray.I hope.


----------



## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*general*



ibuzzard said:


> Another of those "bombs-of misunderstanding".
> 
> I'm pretty sure you're only a troll, and not as ignorant as the image you try to portray.I hope.


I wouldn't be sure of that


----------



## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

ibuzzard said:


> One of the best investments you could make, then, would be - besides a copy of the current NEC - a copy of Soares Book on Grounding and Bonding:
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Soares-Book-Grounding-Bonding-2011-NEC/dp/1890659576
> 
> ...


:laughing: He's just trolling us !


----------



## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*Training Videos*

This is first in a multi part series of training series for my new recruits 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_N2lg-Hwi4


----------



## ibuzzard (Dec 28, 2008)

Cletis said:


> This is first in a multi part series of training series for my new recruits


Kind of "The Blind Leading the Blind", eh?


----------



## 76nemo (Aug 13, 2008)

I'll just shut up............


----------



## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*2nd*

Here is the second part in the ongoing training series how to locate and fish wire professionally. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdL3_83KZZA&feature=related


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Cletis said:


> Can anyone further simplify the distinction between a neutral and a grounded conductor (branch cir. neutral v.s. service grounded conductor (some call neutral) ??
> 
> Hypothetically,
> 
> If someone goes up and cuts the grounded conductor on line side of service drop what would happen inside the house ??? Everything metal in house gets hot ??


After reading all the posts in this thread , I don't see why you are all stomping on Cletis, when you all missed the important fact: *No Cletis, you would still need to have a fault before all the metal in the house becomes "hot". * However you will cause the remaining two power legs to have voltage swings dependent 
on the load imposed on either of them being unbalanced. So if the loading is a little unbalanced, the voltage will be a small swing up or down on one side, with the opposite and equal swing away from 120 v to ground on the other leg. A heavy load like 70 amps or so and you are going to see some dangerous swings up and down on the two remaining conductors, which can then cause electronic devices plugged into the system to start burning. It ain't good....


----------



## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*happen*



macmikeman said:


> After reading all the posts in this thread , I don't see why you are all stomping on Cletis, when you all missed the important fact: *No Cletis, you would still need to have a fault before all the metal in the house becomes "hot". * However you will cause the remaining two power legs to have voltage swings dependent
> on the load imposed on either of them being unbalanced. So if the loading is a little unbalanced, the voltage will be a small swing up or down on one side, with the opposite and equal swing away from 120 v to ground on the other leg. A heavy load like 70 amps or so and you are going to see some dangerous swings up and down on the two remaining conductors, which can then cause electronic devices plugged into the system to start burning. It ain't good....


Have you ever seen this happen? Would the plumbing and such become energized?


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Cletis said:


> Have you ever seen this happen? Would the plumbing and such become energized?


Bout a hundred times would be my guess. To further add, the water piping system from the point where the gec clamp is connected to the other structures nearby connected likewise will carry your unbalanced return current (a bunch of it anyway) so the water piping system can have potentially fatal current in it, regardless of any ground fault or no ground fault in the system. But unless the interior piping has additional places in it that are "grounded" that piping downstream of the gec connection point should not see a current flow. However lots of plumbers install copper water pipes without insulation on them under slabs, so........


----------



## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

you trolled 4 cletis, good catch :thumbup::whistling2::laughing:


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

360max said:


> you trolled 4 cletis, good catch :thumbup::whistling2::laughing:


Three... I just had nothing better to do while waiting on my breakfast to be served....


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

> For most of us, the neutral is the grounded conductor. I was once asked what the difference was between a ground and a neutral. My answer was the ground should only carry fault current and the neutral carries current during a normal operation. T*he reason I answered this way is that most of the time, the neutral and ground are at the same potential and if you hook your load to a "hot" and a "ground" it will work (although it creates a condition for someone to get shocked).*



The Neutral and grounding conductor are the same potential, ONLY, at the neutral bond connection or when there is no load on the circuit.


----------



## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

brian john said:


> The Neutral and grounding conductor are the same potential, ONLY, at the neutral bond connection or when there is no load on the circuit.


True, and the phase conductors are at the same potential as the neutral at the zero crossing. I didn't think we were getting this technical though.


----------



## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Cletis said:


> So, some grounding conductors are neutrals and some are not?
> 
> Are all neutrals grounding conductors or none so some??
> 
> Is a conductor of a corner ground 240V delta neutral or grounded conductor or neither ?


Grounding conductors are NOT neutrals. A conductor that is intentionally GROUNDED at the service is either a neutral or a grounding conductor. The conductor that is intended to carry circuit current is the neutral.


----------



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

ibuzzard said:


> Cletoris...


 I choked on my dinner. :lol:

-John


----------



## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*Corner Grounded System*

So, on a corner grounded system say when the C phase is grounded is it called the grounded neutral conductor or a grounded phase conductor ??


----------



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Cletis said:


> So, on a corner grounded system say when the C phase is grounded is it called the grounded neutral conductor or a grounded phase conductor ??


 Neither. It is the grounded conductor.

It's not a neutral because there is no voltage-neutral point in a corner-grounded delta system.

It's no longer a phase conductor because it's been grounded.

-John


----------



## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*?*



Big John said:


> Neither. It is the grounded conductor.
> 
> It's not a neutral because there is no voltage-neutral point in a corner-grounded delta system.
> 
> ...


Then what's up with this I lifted off of an IAEI article 

"Summary

Installations and inspections of corner-grounded systems can be a bit *intimidating* both to *seasoned veterans *and to *students* of the Code. All the rules for grounded conductors must be applied identically to the grounded conductors of all systems, whether the grounded conductor is a grounded neutral conductor or a grounded phase conductor. "


----------



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

It's symantics: To the code, it's a grounded conductor.

Any leg or phase of a transformer can be theoretically be grounded, so I don't see much value in the term "grounded phase conductor." It's like calling one side of a control transformer the "grounded hot leg."

-John


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Big John said:


> It's symantics: To the code, it's a grounded conductor.
> 
> Any leg or phase of a transformer can be theoretically be grounded, so I don't see much value in the term "grounded phase conductor." It's like calling one side of a control transformer the "grounded hot leg."
> 
> -John


 
While I agree, with your statement, the corner grounded conductor is a phase conductor.


----------

