# Help with pricing a big custom home electrical



## 6selectric (May 10, 2017)

Trying to give an estimate on a 6000 sq. ft., split level custom home. Out of town contractor, no electrical prints, just floor plans. Nothing to go off of for load calculations. It's pretty much put a receptacle here, put a light there. He does say he wants every room with its own home run, as well as bathrooms. He says he has no problem with $5.00 a sq. ft., but would I get in trouble with that?
Any help would be appreciated! Tia


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

6selectric said:


> Trying to give an estimate on a 6000 sq. ft., split level custom home. Out of town contractor, no electrical prints, just floor plans. Nothing to go off of for load calculations. It's pretty much put a receptacle here, put a light there. He does say he wants every room with its own home run, as well as bathrooms. He says he has no problem with $5.00 a sq. ft., but would I get in trouble with that?
> Any help would be appreciated! Tia


In Kansas probably not but you better nail things down a tad. LED trims? How many recessed fixtures? Dimmers? Electric heat?


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Carry on my wayward son. There'll be truth when you are done.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

If you put together a contract with a clear scope of work and payment schedule that prevents you from losing too much skin, it might work out. Worst thing that happens is they use the contract you put together to do design, load calcs, etc., and someone else does the work. 

Making a clear scope of work without giving away all the details is the trick.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I still don't understand why you would engineer a job for free for someone who is only going to pay you $5/sqft anyway. Electrical engineers make a lot of money to do this, why give it away?


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## active1 (Dec 29, 2009)

I would always charge for electrical design time if they didn't have an electrical print. Most likely someone will need to do it to submit for permits. Once you have an approved electrical drawing you then have a solid scope of work. Then price out the assemblies, home runs, equipment, gear, communication, etc..

A 6,000sf home is never code bare bones.
Estimating electrical on high end resi with no plans could lead to a nightmare.

What if the owner requests more than normal 4 way lighting switching all over the house. Such as next to each side of the bed. For every outside light next to every door. With switches for outside soffit cans, another for coach lighting, another flood lights, another landscape lights. 

With requests like chandelier lifts, driveway entrance lights, driveway gate, outside kitchen, flat screens everywhere, cameras, steam showers, under sink instant hot water, hot tub, whole house vacuum, attic fans, surge protectors, cabinet lighting, door switches, magnetic door locks, glass that fogs with power, data racks, generator, light poles, lighting rods, there is no stop to the list of things they can request connected. 

Had one wood framed home we did they requested all electrical in conduit, all compression fittings, min wire size 12 and 10 for HRs, going to bolt in panel boards.


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## LuckyLuke (Jun 1, 2015)

You first warning sign when he is more than happy to pay $5 per sqf


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

You kidding? $30,000 is great. It will get a little over half of the house wired to absolute code minimum, by Mesicans. Maybe splatz with throw in a complementary megging of every circuit.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

McMansions of such size, hereabouts, go crazy on the electrical.

You can't use per square foot.


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## Signal1 (Feb 10, 2016)

> 6000 sq. ft., split level *custom home*.


Ok, so this is a home being specifically built for someone, and they don't know what they want? Design on the fly? Can't afford an EE?

Not to be a downer but this just sounds like a recipe for disaster.

You should read @active1's post, walk away for a few minutes, then read it again.


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## Barjack (Mar 28, 2010)

I'd say you're being shopped. The builder probably has no intention of using you, just your price.



Second, $5 per sq ft is a joke. We completed 2 3750 sq ft homes last year just south of $40K each.



I would spend an hour on a proposal, no room breakdowns, just basic quantities with a bottom line price. Add plenty of overhead. Tell them certain breakdowns come with a signed contract.


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## socket2ya (Oct 27, 2016)

HackWork said:


> You kidding? $30,000 is great. It will get a little over half of the house wired to absolute code minimum, by Mesicans. Maybe splatz with throw in a complementary megging of every circuit.


I'm surprised that 30,000 sounds good to you. Here on Cape Cod MA i was thinking at least 40,000 for a house that size with all the recesseed, undercabinet lighting, dimmers, HVAC etc that will come along with it. I figured the Jersey/NY prices would trump that.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

socket2ya said:


> I'm surprised that 30,000 sounds good to you. Here on Cape Cod MA i was thinking at least 40,000 for a house that size with all the recesseed, undercabinet lighting, dimmers, HVAC etc that will come along with it. I figured the Jersey/NY prices would trump that.


I don't think you read my whole post :thumbsup:


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

sbrn33 said:


> In Kansas probably not but you better nail things down a tad. LED trims? How many recessed fixtures? Dimmers? Electric heat?


If the devices are trimmed in Lutron custom colors, you can get murdered on the cost of that stuff.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

I figured if you locked up a contract for code minimums at $5 / square foot, you could do OK on change orders. As mentioned no 6000 square foot house goes with code minimums, once you're in you might do OK.


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## socket2ya (Oct 27, 2016)

HackWork said:


> I don't think you read my whole post :thumbsup:


Oh, your original post was satirical. Now I get it, I'm a little slow


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## 6selectric (May 10, 2017)

Okay, let me clarify. I'm in kansas, not Jersey or New York or even Florida. I'm in a 2500 person town.
Met with the gereral contractor today, 200 amp main panel with 150 sub. 220v circuits are: 2 A/C condensers, 30 amp oven ( convection) clothes dryer, well. Major appliances include: dish/disposal, 2 refers, freezer, wash machine, lift station, pressure pump. 60 can lights ( LED, owner furnished trims ) 6 ceiling fans, general lighting and plug circuits. No special trim, standard switches and plugs, no dimmers, but 4 4-way systems. 9 ft ceilings with 1 big vaulted ceiling with 2 ceiling fans. 6 bed, 4 bath lake house (vacation home) no communications or cable. Local IT to provide that. Thanks for everyone's input, and I understand, I came from California, so I understand the various price differences.


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## active1 (Dec 29, 2009)

I'm not saying it's wrong if you did the math?
But I never seen a 200a service on a home the size of 6,000 sf.
Many jurisdictions and or power companies have service size minimums beyond the NEC.

Normally with those homes you have a ton of breakers for all the circuits, and I end up having at least 2 full size panels. But to figure the circuits you start with the electrical plans and load calcs. Oh wait.. 

I seen these done before with the minimum space and by the time it's done with all the extras there's panels added to make it work or dedicated circuits combined. Because it was not planed for it tends to look like new construction poop on a stick.

Who said it was a 200a service the GC, owner, village, power company, plans?
Don't know why you would put a 150 amp sub on a lonely resi panel vs at least (2) 200a panels.

2500 person town. So now your basing your prices on population and square footage.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

active1, around here there are plenty of houses that size with 200A services. The subpanel is just for more breaker space. When heat and other appliances are natural gas, the electrical load isn't as high as some people think.

But I completely agree with your premise, he needs to know this beforehand, it should have been engineered. I don't care where he lives, a custom 6,000sqft house shouldn't be trying to save dollars by not being engineered.


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## Glock23gp (Mar 10, 2014)

In my state, my license allows me to design any installation I install, therefore do not need engineering done beforehand.

That said, I also have a 6700 Sq ft home coming up that I will be pricing soon as well.

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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Glock23gp said:


> In my state, my license allows me to design any installation I install, therefore do not need engineering done beforehand.
> 
> That said, I also have a 6700 Sq ft home coming up that I will be pricing soon as well.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-T337A using Tapatalk


Our licenses allow us to do many things, but the point is that we shouldn't be doing it for free.

The house that the OP is talking about needs to be engineered, whether it's done by an EE, an architect, or the OP himself. The EE and architect would be paid for that work, so the OP should be too.


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## Glock23gp (Mar 10, 2014)

HackWork said:


> Our licenses allow us to do many things, but the point is that we shouldn't be doing it for free.
> 
> The house that the OP is talking about needs to be engineered, whether it's done by an EE, an architect, or the OP himself. The EE and architect would be paid for that work, so the OP should be too.


I agree.

I think I'm going to do a per opening price on my project to see how it turns out (will be easier to track and document exactly what's to be installed for what price as a cya). I'll be trading (bartering) over half the job anyway so won't hurt too bad if I come in under a bit and will give me more numbers to go with on my pricing since I'm still new to bidding work.

I've always been curious how contracts are written to avoid being screwed on items that were mentioned above: 

- Custom colors
- Wireless gadgets
- Fancy low volt thingys 
- Gate 2000' from home with camera
- Etc...

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## Barjack (Mar 28, 2010)

6selectric said:


> Okay, let me clarify. I'm in kansas, not Jersey or New York or even Florida. I'm in a 2500 person town.
> Met with the gereral contractor today, 200 amp main panel with 150 sub. 220v circuits are: 2 A/C condensers, 30 amp oven ( convection) clothes dryer, well. Major appliances include: dish/disposal, 2 refers, freezer, wash machine, lift station, pressure pump. 60 can lights ( LED, owner furnished trims ) 6 ceiling fans, general lighting and plug circuits. No special trim, standard switches and plugs, no dimmers, but 4 4-way systems. 9 ft ceilings with 1 big vaulted ceiling with 2 ceiling fans. 6 bed, 4 bath lake house (vacation home) no communications or cable. Local IT to provide that. Thanks for everyone's input, and I understand, I came from California, so I understand the various price differences.




That looks awfully tight for a 200A service. 

I realize it's a vacation house, but what happens when the owners host the whole family for spring break or whatever and the main trips. No matter who is responsible for the design, the electrician will look bad. 

Also think about vehicle chargers. I guarantee with a house that size that topic will come up. They are a nice, fat, continuous load that will overwhelm a 200A service. 

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## socket2ya (Oct 27, 2016)

You would typically do a 325 amp service for a house this big but I question how necessary it really is. I'll bet if you clipped an amprobe on the mains it wouldn't approach 200 amps on its busiest day.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

socket2ya said:


> You would typically do a 325 amp service for a house this big but *I question how necessary it really is. I'll bet if you clipped an amprobe on the mains it wouldn't approach 200 amps on its busiest day.*


Yup. I've done this exact thing when showing people in big houses that a portable generator would be fine and they didn't need a huge 20,000 watt generator for outages.


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

Glock23gp said:


> I'll be trading (bartering) over half the job anyway


Bartering what?


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

6selectric said:


> He says he has no problem with $5.00 a sq. ft., but would I get in trouble with that?
> [/QUOTE
> 
> probably


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## Glock23gp (Mar 10, 2014)

readydave8 said:


> Bartering what?


I'm in the process of buying a house that needs a lot of work and he is a gc friend of mine (building his own house) and we just trade straight across. 

Full price for full price.


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## Galt (Sep 11, 2013)

I think if you have him buy the trim fans and fixtures you will be fine. If there is a shared wall between bedrooms it's pretty dumb to have 2 circuits.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

socket2ya said:


> You would typically do a *320 *amp service for a house this big but I question how necessary it really is. I'll bet if you clipped an amprobe on the mains it wouldn't approach 200 amps on its busiest day.


Fixed it for you.

The Trade term for such a SERVICE is *320* never 325. 

I don't know where you picked that number up.

320 = 80% of 400 ... which is where it got started.

*320* also means it's going to receive a* Residential* tariff.

The gear can actually pass 400A, and is rated for it. *320 is a term of art.*

The same single phase socket would be rated 400 if the customer was on a Commercial tariff.

This got started as a polite way to explain to Mr. Commercial that his tariff was different than Mrs Residential. (A business has virtually no off hour load, while imposing an immense load during business hours. This full on// full off is hard on the Poco's system. Plus the PUC has no sympathy for small businesses.)

You can thank the Marketing Boys for this one.

325 makes you read like a newbie... or someone who's picked up bad lingo from an old fart.

Stop it.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Galt said:


> I think if you have him buy the trim fans and fixtures you will be fine. If there is a shared wall between bedrooms it's pretty dumb to have 2 circuits.


Rope 14-2-2 and make him happy. 

He's repeat business.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Glock23gp said:


> I agree.
> 
> I think I'm going to do a per opening price on my project to see how it turns out (will be easier to track and document exactly what's to be installed for what price as a cya). I'll be trading (bartering) over half the job anyway so won't hurt too bad if I come in under a bit and will give me more numbers to go with on my pricing since I'm still new to bidding work.
> 
> ...


You're a budding contractor.

These issues are to be covered in your SUBMITTALS.

You need to develop your own boilerplate Submittal book that details just such details.

You don't leave such items hanging in the breeze.

You also must have EXCLUSIONS. Stuff like, if it's not on the print, it's not in the deal.

( Like circuits run outside the curtain wall are EXTRAS.)


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## active1 (Dec 29, 2009)

Is this another side job - how much do I charge and how do I do this job post?

Was wondering about the 325a, thought it was just some regional wierdness.


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## Glock23gp (Mar 10, 2014)

active1 said:


> Is this another side job - how much do I charge and how do I do this job post?
> 
> Was wondering about the 325a, thought it was just some regional wierdness.


I don't know bout the OP but I install a lot of 320 services. It's the most common for anything over 200 because a full 400 requires ct's.

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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Glock23gp said:


> I don't know bout the OP but I install a lot of 320 services. It's the most common for anything over 200 because a full 400 requires ct's.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk


At 400A you'll find that the Poco's tariff changes, too.

The PUC does not have a soft heart for millionaires.

So the monster residence is billed at Commercial Rates.


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## active1 (Dec 29, 2009)

Ya we just called em 400a. I know the 320a meter. But 400 sounds better.

Like I posted earlier don't understand why not put a 320a meter to (2) 200a panels and be done. A 150a sub off a resi 200a main breaker panel is crazy talk.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Glock23gp said:


> In my state, my license allows me to design any installation I install, therefore do not need engineering done beforehand.
> 
> That said, I also have a 6700 Sq ft home coming up that I will be pricing soon as well.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-T337A using Tapatalk


Who is going to pay you $100 an hour for your time, I suspect 40 hours to design and answer RFIs.
I can design most of what I install but, I hire someone to do it. I can make more money doing what I do.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

socket2ya said:


> You would typically do a 325 amp service for a house this big but I question how necessary it really is. I'll bet if you clipped an amprobe on the mains it wouldn't approach 200 amps on its busiest day.


I have upgraded people to 200 amps and I find it impossible to get 60 amps on a 2000 sf all electric house.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

Last house I wired ended up at $28,000 for 2400 sq ft, and the one before that was $12000 for 1200 sq ft, and before that was $34,000 for 3000 sq ft. I bet Mr. GC would LOVE the house wired at $5/sq ft.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Glock23gp said:


> In my state, my license allows me to design any installation I install, therefore do not need engineering done beforehand.


Mine as well. It's interesting that my particular state requires '_plan review_' of all architecturals , as well as a state engineers stamp, but will breeze right on by E1,E2,E3 

Which, if the electrician has a problem with the archy , ends up the _electricans _problem.

But i digress, what about _design build_ is apples/apples?

GC's telling any of us to bid anything w/o _ specifics _ better be ready for a world of change orders

I think we all know how that works out ......

~CS~


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

active1 said:


> A 150a sub off a resi 200a main breaker panel is crazy talk.


It's common and typical to do that. As I said earlier, it is only to accommodate the amount of circuits. More common in a house that size is to have 2 X 90A subpanels (located in remote positions) off of the main 200A panel. 

Here we do real engineering and load calcs instead of just guesstimating 400 services. The PoCo is going to want to see it and they may turn it down due to the added load on the tranny.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

HackWork said:


> It's common and typical to do that. As I said earlier, it is only to accommodate the amount of circuits.  More common in a house that size is to have 2 X 90A subpanels (located in remote positions) off of the main 200A panel.
> 
> Here we do real engineering and load calcs instead of just guesstimating 400 services. The PoCo is going to want to see it and they may turn it down due to the added load on the tranny.


It is common? That seems odd as they do not make a 150 ampere breaker to fit a 200 ampere load center.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

sbrn33 said:


> It is common? That seems odd as they do not make a 150 ampere breaker to fit a 200 ampere load center.


I never specified 150A. I was speaking about a large secondary subpanel, or two, instead of installing a larger service.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

A word of warning: if you're a little guy, this job will consume you. You will be stuck on it for what seems like a very long time. You need to have an iron clad scope of work and a mechanism for change orders. You can't allow one freebie because, after that, freebies will be expected.

I used to be a nice guy. Then I came to this site and the good people here taught me how to be a hardass. Nice guys don't make money in this business, hardasses do. The minute you trust your welfare to someone else is the minute you lose your ass. 

For little guys, we're always better off with lots of smaller jobs than big jobs. The cash turnover is quicker and exposure is limited.

I'm not saying you shouldn't take this job but you need to look at it with very critical eyes. Somebody will do this job. Around here, it would be done by a crew of wire yankers who blast through it and get on to the next one.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I agree with 99cents only I am going to go a little further and say that he shouldn't do it. There is no reason to get your feet wet with a custom 6,000sqft house in which the GC already told you that he is going to rape you ($5/sqft = $30,000). I don't care where you are, that's insane.

Do some small houses first and figure out what it actually costs you to do this work.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

What bugs me about this job is it reeks of indecision. We need to have exact details. That job could be going along fine until thirty Desperation Hardware fixtures hit site. Then your profit disappears in a heartbeat.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> What bugs me about this job is it reeks of indecision. We need to have exact details. That job could be going along fine until thirty Desperation Hardware fixtures hit site. Then your profit disappears in a heartbeat.


99cents has exceeded their stored private messages quota and cannot accept further messages until they clear some space.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> 99cents has exceeded their stored private messages quota and cannot accept further messages until they clear some space.


Done!


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## 6selectric (May 10, 2017)

Glock23gp said:


> I don't know bout the OP but I install a lot of 320 services. It's the most common for anything over 200 because a full 400 requires ct's.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk


PU does not provide 320, next step up IS 400 amp C/Tls. 
That's my concern. Lot of good information here, and I agree that it should have been engineered, but it's not gonna happen unless PU insists on it. Contract will specify " contractor insists on 200 amp service" if PU allows it.


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## LuckyLuke (Jun 1, 2015)

I am not sure how easily you will be able to change your pricing for this job and still look good, the GC probably already has a down payment on a vacation home based off your $5/sqf you already discussed with him. Never discuss price until you know what it is, to say 30k then come in next week and say something like 50k you will look like you don't know what you are doing sadly.


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## 6selectric (May 10, 2017)

Like I said, great information here, but I'm looking at where some of you are from, and it's just not the same. Some of you are saying I'm getting raped at $5.00 a square foot, but I've talked to several local ( within a 100 miles) and standard rate is between $3.25- $3.75 a square foot. I also agree I'm a little skeptical about him throwing out the $5.00 a square foot price out there with no prints, and no load calculations at all. I've wired plenty of houses, and did fine on all but one, came real close to cost + labor, but this is much bigger then I've tackled. This is not an all electrical house, no special usage items, just a big house with lots of plugs and lights. And most of the lighting will be LED bought by the home owner.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

6selectric, you should look for a deli, or market, or maybe a nail salon in your area and apply for a job sweeping the floors or stocking the shelves. All of them pay more than you will make on this job and they are easier and less stressful.


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## 6selectric (May 10, 2017)

HackWork said:


> 6selectric, you should look for a deli, or market, or maybe a nail salon in your area and apply for a job sweeping the floors or stocking the shelves. All of them pay more than you will make on this job and they are easier and less stressful.


Thanks, that's helpful!


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

6selectric said:


> Thanks, that's helpful!


It is. 

Your fantasy that it's ok to wire a customer 6,000sqft house for $30,000 just because of your location, or the other failing contractors in your area are doing it for less, is going to hurt you. 

I notice something odd happening sometimes. People will talk about their area and how they can't make much money doing certain jobs. But they still do those jobs, they just make crap money, or lose money.

WHY? If you can't make good money doing a certain job, do another type of job. 

Why would you wire a house in which you will end up making less than a janitor? You just told me that your competition would charge $19,500 to do that 6,000sqft house. So why would you even get involved?


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## LuckyLuke (Jun 1, 2015)

Well take it on and let us know how you made out with that pricing, then the old boys on here who have seen this time and time again have another statistic to show the next rising star.


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## active1 (Dec 29, 2009)

@hack
"Here we do real engineering and load calcs instead of just guesstimating 400 services. The PoCo is going to want to see it and they may turn it down due to the added load on the tranny."

Oh ya. You think that doesn't Fkn happen in Las Vegas? 
NEVER DID I ESTIMATE THE LOAD.
MY FRICKEN POINT IS THE 200A SEEMED SMALL AND HOW THE F WOULD YOU HAVE A 150A SUB. 

The last resi project I did was a 2,200sf detached gym for a sports franchise and casino franchise owner. Had 600a per EE with panelboards full spread around the building.



sbrn33 said:


> It is common? That seems odd as they do not make a 150 ampere breaker to fit a 200 ampere load center.


That's my whole point with post #18.
Probably need lots of circuit space, 2 full size panels.
Just what was listed post #17 would be about 32 spaces (appliances, equipment, dedicated bed & bath). That does not include the other 6,000' of general power & lighting, 3,000' basement?, basement pumps? how many car garage, outside electrical, and other dedicated things added. 

No plan projects like this things come up requiring more power & circuits too often. After a few you start to have a check list asking if they are going to have a steam shower, hot tub, heated whirlpool, etc.. 

So if you have a 200a MCB loadcenter how are you going to get the 150a for the sub? They don't make 150a CB for those. 

They do sell plug in 2 space sub feed lugs kits for load centers. Using tap rules put the 150a next to the 200a. But they have a max rating less than 150a. Figure the plug in load center buss fingers can only handle so many amps. Besides you got a 200a full panel and you want another 150a to feed something else. It would be an interesting panel schedule to justify that. Perhaps if all the large loads are on a sub and the nothing loads are in the main. Why would you do that unless you had a special case. The 200a shouldn't have a constant load of more that 160a.

What are your options?
1. A bolt-in panelboard with a 200a main and 150a breaker. Nice but costly. 
2. Feed thru lugs on a 200a panelboard would also be a costly choice.
3. Drill and tap the 200a buss & install lugs. On a loadcenter, that's not happening.
4. Put a 200a OCP before the 200a load center panel (meter or separate disco) and install double lugs. Thee 150a wouldn't really be a sub panel. You could do it but there would be a lot of fat conductors in that 14.5"x3.5" panel.
5. Put double lugs in the meter and come out twice. Good luck fitting that in a 200a meter. Thee 150a wouldn't be a sub panel.
6. Come out the meter to a splice box. From the splice box to each panel. Thee 150a wouldn't be a sub panel.

Or

Use a 400a meter base made to feed 2 panels, install (2) 200a panels.
Material cost, labor, and quality would be the better option.

Not saying 400a is what's needed. Just that a 400a is a way better option than the 150a sub on a 200a.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

The 150a subpanel that you keep dwelling on was something the GC pulled out of his ass. You spent 5 paragraphs talking about the 150a size when I already mentioned that 2 90a panels was normal and doable. I didn't want to cloud the issue with the subpanel size like people are doing with the 325a, 320a, and 400a debate which is completely besides the point. 

The amount of circuits has absolutely nothing to do with the service size. You can have 5 42 space subpanels powered off of a 200a service in a system that is running perfectly.

Your pushing for a 400a service is nothing more than guesstimating based on circuit numbers and not the load. 

A 400 amp service is very expensive and may not even be allowed by the PoCo, as spelled out in previous posts.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

HackWork said:


> The 150a subpanel that you keep dwelling on was something the GC pulled out of his ass. You spent 5 paragraphs talking about the 150a size when I already mentioned that 2 90a panels was normal and doable. I didn't want to cloud the issue with the subpanel size like people are doing with the 325a, 320a, and 400a debate which is completely besides the point.
> 
> The amount of circuits has absolutely nothing to do with the service size. You can have 5 42 space subpanels powered off of a 200a service in a system that is running perfectly.
> 
> ...


I respectfully disagree. A 400 ampere service is cheap and super easy. Plus the customer loves it and it also helps sell the house. You put in 2-100 amp panels for $1,000 and I put in 2-200 ampere panels for $1,500. Who do you think they are going to go with? I have another $$150 in the 200.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

sbrn33 said:


> I respectfully disagree. A 400 ampere service is cheap and super easy. Plus the customer loves it and it also helps sell the house. You put in 2-100 amp panels for $1,000 and I put in 2-200 ampere panels for $1,500. Who do you think they are going to go with? I have another $$150 in the 200.


Such weak trolling.


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## active1 (Dec 29, 2009)

"The 150a subpanel that you keep dwelling on was something the GC pulled out of his ass."
That was my question in post #18.
What's concerning is the OP went with that number.
And my point has been it makes no since for resi to do that.

The (2) 100a panels would be a better option than the OP listed.
As would be a 100a sub.
That wouldn't be so as bad.
But the 150a sub in resi is a poor design choice.

"Your pushing for a 400a service is nothing more than guesstimating based on circuit numbers and not the load."

For the love of god my point of the 400a was a better design choice than the 150a sub.
Remember your post #41 You said a 150a sub "It's common to do that".
And post #43 sbrn33 questioned your statement.

HOW MANY ****IN TIMES DID I SAY IT NEEDED TO BE CALCULATED?
At least twice in post #18 & 41. 
That's as bad as me writing HackWork thinks any 6,000sf home needs only a 200a service and keep posting it over and over.

"A 400a service is very expensive".
Vs what. What the OP listed, a 200a and a 100a sub?
WTF is very expensive? 1P resi. Another few $1000 customer cost.
That may just put them over budget and they cancel the project, not. 

"You can have 5 42 space subpanels powered off of a 200a service in a system that is running perfectly."
Hell I'll raise you, You can have 10 or more 42 space subpanels powered off of a 200a service in a system that is running perfectly if the calculated load works out. 

I would be willing to calculate the load for the OP if they provided more details, but they probably don't have.


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## Signal1 (Feb 10, 2016)




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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I can't wait to see how this house will pull less than 100A on the worst day.


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## active1 (Dec 29, 2009)

Halfway into construction there will be more.
Like it will be a 50a oven, not 30a.
Or put electric hot water tanks under the sinks.
The 4 bathrooms will get heated tile.
Another AC unit will be added.
Etc.

In a year or two someone will get the call.
Why do the lights dim when the A/C turns on?

It's going to cost me $8,000 to do the electric on the hot tub?
But I should have space in my 5 subpanels?
Well your million dollar home was built to the minimum. 
Got to trench few hundred feet around your patio to install the conduit to the utility transformer. Then we need to replace the meter housing, toss out this 100a panel and replace it with a 200a.

But my neighbor didn't have to upgrade the service to install a car charger..
Yes, Active Electric did them.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Active1, you are missing the entire point. This house IS built to the absolute minimum. There is no way for $30,000 to cover even one staple more than the minimum. Certainly not a CT'ed 400A service like the OP said is the only allowable step up from 200A. If they want any of the upgrades that you mentioned, they can do another load calc and see if they will need to upgrade the service. But to try and fit a 400A service into what the GC is offering now is not going to work.

But I digress. You have yelled at me and cursed at me and hurt my delicate feelings.


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## active1 (Dec 29, 2009)

Sorry Hack.
Sitting at home too long.
On the positive the abuse will only make you stronger.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

active1 said:


> sorry hack.
> Sitting at home too long.
> On the positive the abuse will only make you stronger.


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## 6selectric (May 10, 2017)

No worries.... I told the GC $50,000 and we are all good now.....:thumbsup:
Just going to put 100 ampere panels in every room, then I only need a 24 breaker 200 amp main for the 12 100 amp breakers! Problem solved!


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

HackWork said:


> Active1, you are missing the entire point. This house IS built to the absolute minimum. There is no way for $30,000 to cover even one staple more than the minimum. Certainly not a CT'ed 400A service like the OP said is the only allowable step up from 200A. If they want any of the upgrades that you mentioned, they can do another load calc and see if they will need to upgrade the service. But to try and fit a 400A service into what the GC is offering now is not going to work.
> 
> But I digress. You have yelled at me and cursed at me and hurt my delicate feelings.


Are you even an electrician?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

sbrn33 said:


> Are you even an electrician?


No, but I am pretty damn convincing, eh?


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

Glock23gp said:


> I'm in the process of buying a house that needs a lot of work and he is a gc friend of mine (building his own house) and we just trade straight across.
> 
> Full price for full price.
> 
> ...


The few times I've bartered work with other tradesmen ended badly

The only real advantage may be avoiding taxes, but it still costs me the same as working for the money I need to pay for the work I want done


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## Sparky9868 (May 7, 2017)

*How do I hit like 20 times ?!*



99cents said:


> I used to be a nice guy. Then I came to this site and the good people here taught me how to be a hardass. Nice guys don't make money in this business, hardasses do. The minute you trust your welfare to someone else is the minute you lose your ass.
> 
> For little guys, we're always better off with lots of smaller jobs than big jobs. The cash turnover is quicker and exposure is limited.


:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

This is the bestest quote ever. I've been at it 22 years and done big to little and the smaller get in and get out jobs are always the best money makers.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Sparky9868 said:


> :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
> 
> This is the bestest quote ever. I've been at it 22 years and done big to little and the smaller get in and get out jobs are always the best money makers.


Agreed.

And I go a step further and prefer the smaller half day installation type jobs. They are more profitable and keep receivables at $0. The only downside is that you have to get enough calls to book 10 jobs per week unlike bigger renos that you only need to book 2-4 jobs per week.


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

I like to have a mixture of small renovation/remodel jobs along with service work so I dont get bored. It seems when I do the bigger jobs, I make less money and have to turn away more profitable work.


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

Just be prepared to "eat your lunch".
(it may be your last)


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

chicken steve said:


> Mine as well. It's interesting that my particular state requires '_plan review_' of all architecturals , as well as a state engineers stamp, but will breeze right on by E1,E2,E3
> 
> Which, if the electrician has a problem with the archy , ends up the _electricans _problem.
> 
> ...


Yes sir..we do.:thumbsup:


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

99cents said:


> A word of warning: if you're a little guy, this job will consume you. You will be stuck on it for what seems like a very long time. You need to have an iron clad scope of work and a mechanism for change orders. You can't allow one freebie because, after that, freebies will be expected.
> 
> I used to be a nice guy. Then I came to this site and the good people here taught me how to be a hardass. Nice guys don't make money in this business, hardasses do. The minute you trust your welfare to someone else is the minute you lose your ass.
> 
> ...


But 99 , ....it's a 2000 person town on a Kansas Plain...there may
not be a whole heck of a lot of jobs to choose from. This may be why
"it appears" the OP is kinda salivating over the job Op.:notworthy:


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

readydave8 said:


> The few times I've bartered work with other tradesmen ended badly
> 
> The only real advantage may be avoiding taxes, but it still costs me the same as working for the money I need to pay for the work I want done


Yep..and for a friend to boot:no:


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