# Replacing Switches and Outlets...Liability????



## emfman (Jan 17, 2009)

First off I am a journeyman Electrician and I work under my fathers Electrical license. He supervises big stuff like service upgrades but leaves me to myself on small stuff like changing switches or ruinning a new line to a dishwasher or something. 

So i have developed a good relationship with a GC who is flipping houses for himself and other investors that hire him. On most of the flips I usually end up replacing all the switches and receptacles. 

My concern is I often come across wiring that is not up to code when replacing these switches and receptacles. Today I found switches in a bathroom with no ground leading to an exhaust fan and a light above the bathroom sink. I also ran into a switch that controlled a sink drain waste disposal unit that had no ground. Also I found a receptacle mounted into the floor baseboard trim with no box.

Now I am not tasked with upgrading the wiring in these houses. I am only tasked with replacing the switches and receptacles. Now if the issues can be remedied cheaply I do it without question. But sometimes the wiring would have to be completely reinstalled to remedy the situation and would be quite costly to my client. 

So basically I guess I want to know what is the line between dangerous and not up to code. Or what should I as a professional Electrician insist my GC pay me to fix because I will possibly be held liable for it because I did not fix it and it becomes and issue in the future. 

Just because I saw and touched something attached to inferior wiring am i liable for it???

Thanks in advance.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

emfman said:


> First off I am a journeyman Electrician and I work under my fathers Electrical license. He supervises big stuff like service upgrades but leaves me to myself on small stuff like changing switches or ruinning a new line to a dishwasher or something.
> 
> So i have developed a good relationship with a GC who is flipping houses for himself and other investors that hire him. On most of the flips I usually end up replacing all the switches and receptacles.
> 
> ...


Rules are rules. You need to follow the NEC as adopted by your AHJ. If they require updates, trying to cut corners by doing otherwise can jeopardize your licensing.



emfman said:


> So basically I guess I want to know what is the line between dangerous and not up to code. Or what should I as a professional Electrician insist my GC pay me to fix because I will possibly be held liable for it because I did not fix it and it becomes and issue in the future.


YOU are the professional here, not the GC or his checkbook.



emfman said:


> Just because I saw and touched something attached to inferior wiring am i liable for it???


Until you die, yes..


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

The code allows switch replacements on non-grounded circuits. The code also gives you several options when replacing receptacles on non-grounded circuits. You're fine. What you describe is ordinary electrical maintenance. Don't try to turn it into a rewiring project unless it really needs to be.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

So there you have it, you are screwed ......... Or you are fine. :laughing:


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

I will have to say that any electrician with a 1/2 an ounce of sense would cut in a box in that baseboard rec you found without a box. The ungrounded stuff, however, concerns me very little.


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## emfman (Jan 17, 2009)

Yes I am screwed... lol

Yeah I went to put in a box in the baseboard and the guy before me left the old work box flush with the drywall and then cut a hole in the baseboard and slapped the receptacle on top of that. I thought about wrestling the box out of the wall so I could get mine in but it is wired with nob and tube and it is so old just looking at it the wrong way makes it crumble. What worries me is what I can't see with that old stuff in the wall after I disturb it. I put a piece of metallic tape over the existing box in the wall and put a blank plate on it. No outlet there any more. 

Maybe my question would be better addressed to a lawyer. Because my biggest issue is liability. Basically what liability am i opening myself up to by replacing a switch or outlet or whatever. 

My switch is perfect but the wiring that was in place that I hooked it up to was old as hell and out of date and not safe by current standards so by replacing the switch, outlet, recep am I liable for the wiring?


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

emfman said:


> Maybe my question would be better addressed to a lawyer. Because my biggest issue is liability. Basically what liability am i opening myself up to by replacing a switch or outlet or whatever.
> 
> My switch is perfect but the wiring that was in place that I hooked it up to was old as hell and out of date and not safe by current standards so by replacing the switch, outlet, recep am I liable for the wiring?


This is what insurance is for. If you're the type of person who sees the boogey man around every corner, questions like this will plague you forever. OF COURSE, the last guy that touched it is liable. The likelihood of something happening? Pretty slim.


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## van2977 (Jan 13, 2010)

I was always told when starting to take on my own work to remember what I touch I own , so do it fix it rite.
Just my 2cents


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## noarcflash (Sep 14, 2011)

there is a time limit of which contractors are responsible for. 3 years I think it is around here. after 3 years, your not responsible for shoddy work.


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## emfman (Jan 17, 2009)

van2977 said:


> I was always told when starting to take on my own work to remember what I touch I own , so do it fix it rite.
> Just my 2cents



I mean that sounds like sage advice for someone who does new construction only but if you do remodel work how could you work on anything and not end up replacing everything.

Not having been in the game for as long as others on here I think my issue may be experience in identifying issues that are real big issues (must be fixed) from minor issues (can be left alone).


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

emfman said:


> I mean that sounds like sage advice for someone who does new construction only but if you do remodel work how could you work on anything and not end up replacing everything.
> 
> Not having been in the game for as long as others on here I think my issue may be experience in identifying issues that are real big issues (must be fixed) from minor issues (can be left alone).


Did I mention that the code allows switch and receptacle replacements on ungrounded circuits? :whistling2: Not to mention, the code also addresses extensions to ungrounded circuits. 

Here's my rule of thumb, if it was ever legal, repair it with new switches and receptacles. If the install was never legal, talk with the homeowner or contractor and see what they want to pay for. In my opinion, you're getting yourself all worked up over every-day electrical stuff that shouldn't be allowed to rent space in your brain.


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## watts77 (Dec 3, 2010)

As long as no walls were opened to expose old wiring then it's legal. If you're just changing out devices and open the box and it's old k&t or 2 wire cloth romex or whatever, just put the new device in. You can let the homeowner know that what they have is outdated and see if they want you to rewire it. If not, then call it good. When you start opening up walls is when you are liable to change wiring.


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## aDudeInPhx (Feb 20, 2012)

Have you ever asked your dad for his opinion?


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## amptech (Sep 21, 2007)

emfman said:


> Yes I am screwed... lol
> 
> Yeah I went to put in a box in the baseboard and the _guy before me left the old work box flush with the drywall and then cut a hole in the baseboard and slapped the receptacle on top of that. _I thought about wrestling the box out of the wall so I could get mine in but it is wired with nob and tube and it is so old just looking at it the wrong way makes it crumble. What worries me is what I can't see with that old stuff in the wall after I disturb it. I put a piece of metallic tape over the existing box in the wall and put a blank plate on it. No outlet there any more.
> 
> ...


They make box extender sleeves for that. I have ran in to the situation where the "remodelers" hung 1/2" sheetrock on the plaster walls leaving the original switch and receptacle boxes 1/2" back. Steel City makes metal extenders and Arlington makes plastic ones. Just have to buy a box of 1-1/4" long 6-32 screws.


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