# Graduating to unemployment



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

It seems to me if 50% of the journeymen. Are unemployed then you need to go get a open shop job.

Don't waste your life sitting on the bench go get the money your self.

Just like you said they play favorite's and no matter how hard you work they will stiff you first.


Good luck.:thumbsup:


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## SVT CAMR (Apr 17, 2012)

Be happy you learned this lesson at a young age. Pick up the pieces and move forward. Don't sit around waiting for people who don't care about you.


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## DMILL (Oct 26, 2010)

Im in the same unemployment boat, im not an apprentice though (long story) in a non union shop, im looking for a new place to call home...


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

al13nw4r3LC76 said:


> Other apprentices I have ran circles around have been kept over me on many occasions as they were family/friends of the foreman. I figured hard work would eventually pay off but it doesnt seem like it has.


Sadly, they are victims of their own volition , openly insisting on a meritocracy, which succumbs to nepotism behind closed doors....

~CS~


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

chicken steve said:


> Sadly, they are victims of their own volition , openly insisting on a meritocracy, which succumbs to nepotism behind closed doors....
> 
> ~CS~


since when has the union insisted on being a meritocracy. I would say it is exactly the opposite, hence the term "merit shop" for nonunion.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/meritocracy



> meritocracy
> 
> 
> mer·i·toc·ra·cy
> ...



Nuff said ...


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

BBQ said:


> http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/meritocracy
> 
> Nuff said ...


 And that is the main problem with the union


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## stc9357 (Mar 16, 2012)

I would work open shop see if I could get permission to do it. One of the reasons I'm determined to learn two trades so I never have any lay off time.


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## s.kelly (Mar 20, 2009)

Sorry to hear, sucks to top out right into long term unemployment at home.

It sounds like you can travel and if so it opens up many more possibilities. 

I think you may have some success in CA this summer, last time I was on the job board many bay area locals were expecting work this summer.

Good luck!


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## B W E (May 1, 2011)

So, the unions have a higher unemployment rate than the country as a whole? And, we all agree the country's unemployment rate is unacceptable, yes? Live better, collect unemployment.....till it runs out.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

B W E said:


> So, the unions have a higher unemployment rate than the country as a whole? And, we all agree the country's unemployment rate is unacceptable, yes? Live better, collect unemployment.....till it runs out.


I do not think that is a fair understanding of the state of the economy or the unions.

A more accurate ratio to explore would be the construction industry as a whole...or even various trades in the whole...and their unemployment rate.


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## B W E (May 1, 2011)

Celtic said:


> I do not think that is a fair understanding of the state of the economy or the unions.
> 
> A more accurate ratio to explore would be the construction industry as a whole...or even various trades in the whole...and their unemployment rate.


I'm not unemployed, never have been. I also have never worked for a union shop. I was laid off once, not due to the economy, but due to bad management and they lost clients at a destructive rate. I immediately got my license, and have been working steadily now for 13 years, on my own for a little over two. I have employed union guys many times who were laid off. Well, it was one guy, 4 times. 

No matter how you slice it, 50% of union guys in unemployment is horrible. Why anyone would put up with that crap is beyond me.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

B W E said:


> I'm not unemployed, never have been. I also have never worked for a union shop. I was laid off once, not due to the economy, but due to bad management and they lost clients at a destructive rate. I immediately got my license, and have been working steadily now for 13 years, on my own for a little over two. I have employed union guys many times who were laid off. Well, it was one guy, 4 times.
> 
> No matter how you slice it, 50% of union guys in unemployment is horrible. Why anyone would put up with that crap is beyond me.


Good for you. :thumbsup:

What that has to do with your previous post eludes me.:blink:


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## B W E (May 1, 2011)

Celtic said:


> Good for you. :thumbsup:
> 
> What that has to do with your previous post eludes me.:blink:


Name a union guy that hasn't been on unemployment in the last 13 years.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

B W E said:


> Name a union guy that hasn't been on unemployment in the last 13 years.


What kind of a stupid question is that?


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## B W E (May 1, 2011)

Celtic said:


> What kind of a stupid question is that?


Can you?


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

B W E said:


> Can you?



Of course I can...can you prove me wrong?


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## B W E (May 1, 2011)

Celtic said:


> Of course I can...can you prove me wrong?


Whatever, here we go again.... Forget it. Stick
With the union and your bench vacations.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

B W E said:


> Whatever, here we go again.... Forget it. Stick
> With the union and your bench vacations.


:laughing:

Now that you've realized what a moronic statement you made...followed up by an equally weak question, you have no retort but to shut down?

Thanks, you made my day :thumbsup:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Celtic said:


> :laughing:
> 
> Now that you've realized what a moronic statement you made...followed up by an equally weak question, you have no retort but to shut down?
> 
> Thanks, you made my day :thumbsup:


Celtic, Have you been unemployed in the last 10 years?

I have 25 men that have been fully employed for 25 years, 24, 23, 22, 21, and on down the line. 20 are of these are long term union employees. Full employment has to do with your location.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

brian john said:


> Celtic, Have you been unemployed in the last 10 years?
> 
> I have 25 men that have been fully employed for 25 years, 24, 23, 22, 21, and on down the line. 20 are of these are long term union employees. Full employment has to do with your location.


Yes, I have been laid off within the past 10 years.
I also know many guy/s who have 20+ years with the same contractor/s.


Full employment has do with location as well as many other factors.


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## B W E (May 1, 2011)

Celtic said:


> Yes, I have been laid off within the past 10 years.
> I also know many guy/s who have 20+ years with the same contractor/s.
> 
> Full employment has do with location as well as many other factors.


However, the statistic of 50% of union electricians are in unemployment is accurate, right?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

B W E said:


> However, the statistic of 50% of union electricians are in unemployment is accurate, right?


If that is true it sure would be a fact some politician would try to hone in on for an ad campaign.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

B W E said:


> However, the statistic of 50% of union electricians are in unemployment is accurate, right?


You don't get to play anymore...you decided to take your ball and go home...



B W E said:


> Whatever, here we go again.... Forget it. Stick
> With the union and your bench vacations.


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## B W E (May 1, 2011)

Celtic said:


> You don't get to play anymore...you decided to take your ball and go home...


Sorry, I know introducing facts and logic throws you off.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

B W E said:


> Sorry, I know introducing facts and logic throws you off.



:laughing:
You're funny.

Not too bright, but funny. :thumbup:


Ok, we'll let you back in the sand box...IF...

You can start introducing some [_facts_] instead of the nonsense you have been spewing:


B W E said:


> However, the statistic of 50% of union electricians are in unemployment is accurate, right?


Source please.


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## B W E (May 1, 2011)

Celtic said:


> :laughing:
> You're funny.
> 
> Not too bright, but funny. :thumbup:
> ...


Just quoting the OP....


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

B W E said:


> Just quoting the OP....






B W E said:


> Sorry, I know introducing facts and logic throws you off.


So there are no facts or logic that are throwing me off, then. :blink:



Now hush up...the adults are trying to have a conversation.


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## TooFarFromFenway (Jul 15, 2011)

Is unemployment in the union at 50% union-wide? No. As of 2010, the IBEW reported 25-30% unemployment union wide, but some reported a rate of 50%.

http://www.ibew558.org/article.php?section=labornews&id=4


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## B W E (May 1, 2011)

TooFarFromFenway said:


> Is unemployment in the union at 50% union-wide? No. As of 2010, the IBEW reported 25-30% unemployment union wide, but some reported a rate of 50%.
> 
> http://www.ibew558.org/article.php?section=labornews&id=4


Oh, well, jeez, only 30% unemployment.... Sign me up!!!


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## B W E (May 1, 2011)

So, I know I'm kinda being a ****, and I apologize. I am honestly trying to wrap my brain around how the union works. According to ibew.org, in 2010 there were 1.5 million union workers who had exhausted their 99 (99??????) weeks of unemployment coverage. That has to imply that there are countless others well on their way to exhausting THEIR benefits as well. 

Here is my question. If there are so many people in the union that are sitting on the bench, and who HAVE BEEN sitting on the bench for
so long, why does the union keep bringing people in?? And the unions strategy is to convince congress to extend UI benefits?? 

If I was a manager of a store, I would be a fool to hire on more people than I needed, and I'd be a **** if I hired people I knew I couldn't put to work, and told them to get their UI benefits rolling.

Why do they have so many people not working? I get it that there isn't enough work to go around. If that's the case, why are they bringing in more people all the time? Does the union benefit at all financially from guys who are sitting, whether from union dues, or something else? 

I just don't get it.

And I do apologize, I misread the OP and thought he said 50% nationwide.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

B W E said:


> Name a union guy that hasn't been on unemployment in the last 13 years.


The last time I was on unemployment was in 1974 and I have not taken time off other than what I wanted to take off for vacations and things. 

There have been many members of my local off for extended lengths of time, but there have also been many members that have put in well over 3000 hours per year.(not too much of that now) The man hours per month right now, for my local, are running 50 to 60% of what they were before the economic down turn.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

B W E said:


> ...
> 
> Here is my question. If there are so many people in the union that are sitting on the bench, and who HAVE BEEN sitting on the bench for
> so long, why does the union keep bringing people in?? And the unions strategy is to convince congress to extend UI benefits??
> ...


There are job specs and local ordinances that require an active approved apprentice program. You can't have an active approved apprentice program unless you are taking in and training apprentices. 

They also have to look to the future of the industry. About 40% or more of my local will retire within the next 5 to 7 years. This is because back in the mid 70's there was an extreme amount of work in our local and we took in a large number of apprentices. While I don't expect the man hours to get back to their peaks, I do expect that they will go back up. The local was averaging over 3,000,000 man hours per year before the downturn and has been running about 1.7 million the last couple of years. The is not as bad as it looks for the local members as when we were running 3million plus hours, many of those hours were provided by book 2 people.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

mthinks as an overall objective economic pix, the current student loan debt explains graduating to unemployment in rather stark terms

~CS~


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

BWE,


Sooner or later this economic mess we are in will turn around, if the union does not train and have at the ready apprentices, then the IBEW will be behind the curve with it's ability to supply the necessary manpower to work the projects. If that happens they will be lose more market share.

In many areas of the country it is a very tough to find any job at this point much less electrical work. I think (and many feel I am wrong) the union needs to operate with blinders on allowing their men to make a living and maybe they can wiggle through this extended downturn. 

If I was a union official I’ll tell anyone do what you have to do to survive, just keep it under the raar as much as possible.


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## jimmy21 (Mar 31, 2012)

B W E said:


> So, the unions have a higher unemployment rate than the country as a whole? And, we all agree the country's unemployment rate is unacceptable, yes? Live better, collect unemployment.....till it runs out.


 
That is a bit of a stretch. Your comparing apples to oranges. Most union shops don't do service work and service work is where job stability is good. Why don't you compare the unemployment rate of union journeyman electricians vs non union electricians that mainly do 500,000 dollar contracts and above. Because that is where most union electrical work is

I know of a non union electrician that had his house foreclose due to bad times. It's not just the ibew

Also, to be realistic, I will probably be off for 4 or 5 months this year. I will be part of your union unemployment statistic, but I bet I make more this year than 90% of the people on the board. Not bragging at all, just stating facts..... I don't have to work a full year to make what you do


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## 87Electric (Apr 2, 2011)

jimmy21 said:


> That is a bit of a stretch. Your comparing apples to oranges. Most union shops don't do service work and service work is where job stability is good. Why don't you compare the unemployment rate of union journeyman electricians vs non union electricians that mainly do 500,000 dollar contracts and above. Because that is where most union electrical work is
> 
> I know of a non union electrician that had his house foreclose due to bad times. It's not just the ibew
> 
> Also, to be realistic, I will probably be off for 4 or 5 months this year. I will be part of your union unemployment statistic, but I bet I make more this year than 90% of the people on the board. Not bragging at all, just stating facts..... I don't have to work a full year to make what you do



This statement is true for most. You also have to keep in mind the international was trying to boost membership when the economy went bad. Will this pass? Sure. When? Maybe in two years who knows.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

jimmy21 said:


> That is a bit of a stretch. Your comparing apples to oranges. Most union shops don't do service work and service work is where job stability is good. Why don't you compare the unemployment rate of union journeyman electricians vs non union electricians that mainly do 500,000 dollar contracts and above. Because that is where most union electrical work is


Maybe where you live, here service is a major staple of Union Shops


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## Speedlimit190 (Apr 29, 2012)

You cannot assume everyone on the books is looking for or wanting work. Lives can take many paths, and a 5 year apprenticeship isn't something you throw away. So you keep your membership active in case you decide to return to the trade later.
If you aren't in the IBEW I don't know how you can think you have enough information to make such broad general statements. It shows your ignorance. 
If you don't want to be in the IBEW, don't be. I choose better wages, better benefits, better training, better coworkers, and am proud to be a part of a Brotherhood that is involved in our community in a very positive way.


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## B W E (May 1, 2011)

Speedlimit190 said:


> You cannot assume everyone on the books is looking for or wanting work. Lives can take many paths, and a 5 year apprenticeship isn't something you throw away. So you keep your membership active in case you decide to return to the trade later.
> If you aren't in the IBEW I don't know how you can think you have enough information to make such broad general statements. It shows your ignorance.
> If you don't want to be in the IBEW, don't be. I choose better wages, better benefits, better training, better coworkers, and am proud to be a part of a Brotherhood that is involved in our community in a very positive way.


Like I said, I was simply quoting the OP and IBEW.ORG. I didn't make any statements, just repeated them.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Speedlimit190 said:


> If you don't want to be in the IBEW, don't be. I choose better wages, better benefits, *better training, better coworkers,* and am proud to be a part of a Brotherhood *that is involved in our community in a very positive way*.


 
As a long time union member and union contract I can say BS to anything I put in bold above, you can get both in an open shop market.

And many open shops do as much or more that many "BROTHERS".


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## al13nw4r3LC76 (Apr 6, 2009)

brian john said:


> As a long time union member and union contract I can say BS to anything I put in bold above, you can get both in an open shop market.
> 
> And many open shops do as much or more that many "BROTHERS".


 In my 5 year journey with the union I will say the "brothers" are far a few between. There are many good brothers however when employment is on the line such as now true colors show. Back stabbing begins and blame gets placed on others. I nearly got in a fight with my foreman the other day as he tried to blame something he did on me. I will not take the fall for what someone else did.

I will however man up and take blame for my mistakes. It's feast or famine out there in a lot of areas. My work ethics remain strong even though it may not be enough to keep me employed due to the nepotism. I plan on opening my own shop and running things my way. I've learned how to treat workers and how not.


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## jimmy21 (Mar 31, 2012)

al13nw4r3LC76 said:


> In my 5 year journey with the union I will say the "brothers" are far a few between. There are many good brothers however when employment is on the line such as now true colors show. Back stabbing begins and blame gets placed on others. I nearly got in a fight with my foreman the other day as he tried to blame something he did on me. I will not take the fall for what someone else did.
> 
> I will however man up and take blame for my mistakes. It's feast or famine out there in a lot of areas. My work ethics remain strong even though it may not be enough to keep me employed due to the nepotism. I plan on opening my own shop and running things my way. I've learned how to treat workers and how not.



i know what you mean. The job im on, at one point, had 500 electricians. People come and go from different crews all the time. A lot of the journeyman aren't up to par. They either BS too much, are terrible pipe benders, are slow, etc. Talking with my buddies i'll not hold back and say, "that guy sucks (not in those words)." But i try to live by a code in my life to not be a nark. I will NOT talk bad about someone to the foreman, at least not until they get laid off. Everyone else on the crew will run to the foreman at the opportunity to sell someone under the buss. The foreman started to value my opinion and he would ask me how someone was. He told me a couple weeks ago that he knows how good or how bad someone is, by how long i pause before saying "fine"


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

so i'm hearing the dog eat dog concept of capitalism applys universally across the labor spectrum?

go figure....

~CS~


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## henderson14 (Oct 23, 2010)

chicken steve said:


> so i'm hearing the dog eat dog concept of capitalism applys universally across the labor spectrum?
> 
> go figure....
> 
> ~CS~


Its "sink or swim" for capitalism, not "dog eat dog"


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