# Federal Pacific Subpanel I changed out...fire away.



## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

Ok, I am gonna take my chances with the animals here and post a recent subpanel change-out I did for a friend. The original FPE panel had been in place since 1959 and had some issues...the loose breaker/stab connection being the biggie. No real damage had happened....yet. But we also wanted to be ready for future expansion. Right now the new Murray panel has 8 single-pole breakers, but the panel is rated for up to 16 circuits so we can add some tandems later if needed. There were a lot of other issues I took care of, including replacing a bunch of old 8' T12 fixtures with old, burned out ballasts (complete with loads of messy tar and some burn marks on the ceiling.) This is in a basement, the other side of the wall is an open storage area. 

So here goes:

The old panel..as you can see the deadfront doesn't quite sit right..even with the interior adjusted out as far as I was comfortable with:









Typical FPE crap working space..compounded by a few switch legs passing thru (the wirenuts at the top and bottom.) :










The conduits entering from the back..I had full access to the back side of the wall/panel. :










The new and old, side by each. The top 1" is the feeder conduit and the bottom 1" is a chase nipple/coupler to a 10x10 pull can mounted behind the panel, which you'll see in later pics. :











The gutted FPE panel. All but the feeder are getting removed. I put the Polaris connectors on hot, as this panel is fed by a 70 year old disconnect that I had no confidence in operating. (That is next on the upgrade list.) :










More pics in the next two posts....


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

Continuing the saga:

The feeder conduit...and part of the old circuits in the j-box above. :











Most of the wiring done..the egc's were added after this pic was taken. :











The feeder connected in the old FPE panel. The ground was routed out the top thru a bushing and clamped directly to the 1" EMT..I felt it made for a better ground connection. The red and white #12's on the right are a mystery, we could not figure out what, if anything, they powered. They were pulled out to a j-box and abandoned for now. :










The j-boxes tying in to the new panel. All of this is readily accessible as this is actually in a basement storage area. :


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## RedLiz75 (Jun 22, 2011)

Is that LB still going to be accessible? And the jbox?


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

The 10x10 pull can. There is a 1" chase nipple that goes into the new Murray subpanel (lower left) and the can is secured to the stud on the left. Plenty of working space. The egc's for the circuits and one to bond the can were added after the picture was taken. :











The finished product. There was actually another FPE deadfront found on site that had no breaker knockouts punched out, saved me fabricating a sealed cover for the old can. I goofed numbering the circuits...my chicken scratch will be replaced with a computer-generated panel schedule label on my next visit.  :











All the j-boxes closed up. Notice any missing items? There are a few from when this pic was taken.  :










Showing the pull can, and the EGC prior to being clamped to the 1" EMT. :











All in all, with tracing out the circuits and not rushing, it took me about 7 hours with no helper to finish this one.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

Sharpie on the dead front!


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

I would have done it differently. I would have installed the new panel at the old panel location. You're gonna get called a hack because of the pvc. Welcome back, by the way.


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## RedLiz75 (Jun 22, 2011)

knowshorts said:


> I would have done it differently. I would have installed the new panel at the old panel location. You're gonna get called a hack because of the pvc. Welcome back, by the way.


 

And, what is wrong with the PVC? I think I would have done some things differently, but most any residential I have done is new construction. The contractor I work for does mostly commercial and does not hardly do any residential service.


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

RedLiz75 said:


> Is that LB still going to be accessible? And the jbox?



Welcome to the forum.  See you're up late too. :laughing:

Yes, all of the work is accessible as the wall you see is in a basement storage area. 

I was debating on using a flush-mount panel but really didn't feel like sawing the opening in the wall when I could do it using a holesaw for the conduit and chase nipple entries. :laughing:

Plus, a surface mount panel makes adding circuits later easier in this case.


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## RedLiz75 (Jun 22, 2011)

mxslick said:


> Welcome to the forum.  See you're up late too. :laughing:
> 
> Yes, all of the work is accessible as the wall you see is in a basement storage area.
> 
> ...


 
I am starting a long weekend. My BF and I plan to spend most of it on his boat. After this, it is going to be back to work. I don't get another vaction until October. We are going to Key West then.


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

knowshorts said:


> I would have done it differently. I would have installed the new panel at the old panel location. You're gonna get called a hack because of the pvc. Welcome back, by the way.


Thanks for the welcome back. :thumbup: I am trying to keep my mind off of other things right now...

Yeah, I agree that it would have been better to use the original location, but there were a few issues:



I wasn't in the mood to do sawing on that wall..it is two layers of sheetrock with plywood on top.
I had to leave the feeder hot and demo'ing the old can with the lines hot was too much risk for my mood at the time. (The connectors I used meant my exposure time to live conductor ends was a matter of seconds rather than minutes.) I expect BBQ will be blasting me soon for doing it hot.
And future expansion plans from that new panel will be easier with the surface mount. (I can be lazy sometimes.)
As for the PVC at least it's not buried and needing a map to find it. :whistling2::laughing:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

mxslick said:


> Ok, I am gonna take my chances with the animals here and post a recent subpanel change-out I did for a friend. The original FPE panel had been in place since 1959 and had some issues...the loose breaker/stab connection being the biggie. No real damage had happened....yet. But we also wanted to be ready for future expansion. Right now the new Murray panel has 8 single-pole breakers, but the panel is rated for up to 16 circuits so we can add some tandems later if needed. There were a lot of other issues I took care of, including replacing a bunch of old 8' T12 fixtures with old, burned out ballasts (complete with loads of messy tar and some burn marks on the ceiling.) This is in a basement, the other side of the wall is an open storage area.
> 
> So here goes:
> 
> ...




8 - 20-59.. How old are you...:blink::laughing::laughing:


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

Only a hack wouldn't strap all of those MC's and Flex's......just joking......I think it's just fine. It's definitely an upgrade and improvement.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

knowshorts said:


> I would have done it differently. I would have installed the new panel at the old panel location. *You're gonna get called a hack because of the pvc. * Welcome back, by the way.


:whistling2::thumbup:

The PVC looks like crap, I would have done it differently. At the very least one support is required.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

BBQ said:


> :whistling2::thumbup:
> 
> The PVC looks like crap, I would have done it differently. At the very least one support is required.


I agree, flex would have been the way to go for the feeder.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Only hacks use yellow wing nuts. Real electricians use tans twisters. :thumbsup: All in all I don't see much of an improvment. The FMC's still look like spaghetti and I see no reason why you couldn't have cut the new panel into the old spot.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

It would have taken less than five minutes to saw out the existing opening. I would have put the new box in the existing opening also. Mainly because it would have been just as easy and saved a pull box, polaris connectors and and just looked better in general.
I might have even turned it around and had it face the storage room.
Your way worked and would pass, but?


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

sbrn33 said:


> It would have taken less than five minutes to saw out the existing opening. I would have put the new box in the existing opening also.


That was my thinking as well, less parts, cleaner and I doubt any more time.


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

BBQ said:


> :whistling2::thumbup:
> 
> The PVC looks like crap, I would have done it differently. *At the very least one support is required.*


Crap? It's modern art man!! :laughing: But yes, it needs support. I plan on grabbing the stud just to the left of the LB.



backstay said:


> I agree, flex would have been the way to go for the feeder.


This was a job as a favor, with very limited budget, I had to use what I had on hand (including the surface mount Murray panel) so I did what could with material I had. I do agree that flex would have been a lot better, but I had no 1" or fittings on hand. 



sbrn33 said:


> It would have taken less than five minutes to saw out the existing opening. I would have put the new box in the existing opening also. Mainly because it would have been just as easy and saved a pull box, polaris connectors and and just looked better in general.
> I might have even turned it around and had it face the storage room.
> Your way worked and would pass, but?


See my quoted post below for the reasons I didn't cut it in. I also had a surface mount panel on hand and as in my reply above, I was working with what I had with the very limited budget involved. Now if this was for a "regular" customer it would be a different story. 

The storage area has a dirt floor (very fine powder no less), low clearance and while easier to place the panel, it was a less than optimal location. 



Peter D said:


> Only hacks use yellow wing nuts. Real electricians use tans twisters. :thumbsup: All in all I don't see much of an improvment. The FMC's still look like spaghetti and I see no reason why you couldn't have cut the new panel into the old spot.


I agree the FMC's are still messy..the old ones are the very old and thick steel and very hard to cut (I never did master cutting steel flex with wires inside). 

Material on hand, limited budget and the highlighted reasons below as to why I didn't cut the new panel in. 



BBQ said:


> That was my thinking as well, less parts, cleaner and I doubt any more time.


I agree with you. But as explained in my replies above, there are reasons why it was done the way it was. It is still better and safer than what was there before and that was the main goal. In this location appearance is the least of the concerns (I didn't want to embarrass my friend by taking pics of all the junk in that basement!)



mxslick said:


> Yeah, I agree that it would have been better to use the original location, but there were a few issues:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And yep, more support for the flex and the PVC need to be added. There is a LOT more work to be done at this location (most of the service electric is the building original going back to the 1940's) and will be replaced as time and money permits. We are attacking the biggest hazards first. 

There is another fully loaded FPE panel that is next on the list (it is crammed with mini's and powers a lot of lighting and other loads) as well as the disconnect I mentioned in one of the posts. 

Y'all must be in a good mood, I was expecting a lot worse from this bunch. :laughing:


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> 8 - 20-59.. How old are you...:blink::laughing::laughing:


That panel was put in about 4 years before I was born...:laughing:


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## pistol pete (Jul 4, 2011)

just a couple thought's 1 if this is a limited budget project why use a cheap panel now so you can buy twins later @$10-$12 bucks a pop... 2 by the time u made all those splice boxes u couda put it all in a recessed panel accessibility not so much an issue when the back side of the wall is open... sawzall works wonders... and real electricians don't use those push in b/x connectors.... 3 cutting flex with wires in it? its just like big m/c bx snap and snip or hackasuarus... my favorite for larger variety is my hackzall tho


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

pistol pete said:


> ... and real electricians don't use those push in b/x connectors....


Yeah, only smart electricians that like saving time use those. I really like the snap in double MC connectors, great for daisy chaining troffers.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

Jlarson said:


> Yeah, only smart electricians that like saving time use those. I really like the snap in double MC connectors, great for daisy chaining troffers.


:thumbsup:


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## pistol pete (Jul 4, 2011)

M/c vs bx two totally seperarte things u can't tell me that connector is a very good ground ... and he'll there's lots of UL approved ways to save time ...back stabbing device's and push in wire nuts..... all great ideas with questionable reliability ....hey its a great idea tho


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

The screw in FMC connectors are perfectly fine too, they are listed for grounding and work fine. 


As for push in spring pressure terminals, after many a year at a bench, in the field and behind a desk, I'm now fine with them, they have proven themselves as a valid way of connecting wires.


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## pistol pete (Jul 4, 2011)

Dont personally care for them either but in this senairo I probly woulds left them myself.... and ill use whatever is in front of me just have my preferences


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

pistol pete said:


> real electricians don't use those push in b/x connectors



The only push in connector I see is on the new piece of MC cable that he added. And MC cable has it's own ground. You don't rely on the sheathing to carry the ground.


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

pistol pete said:


> just a couple thought's 1 if this is a limited budget project why use a cheap panel now so you can buy twins later @$10-$12 bucks a pop... 2 by the time u made all those splice boxes u couda put it all in a recessed panel accessibility not so much an issue when the back side of the wall is open... sawzall works wonders... and real electricians don't use those push in b/x connectors.... 3 cutting flex with wires in it? its just like big m/c bx snap and snip or hackasuarus... my favorite for larger variety is my hackzall tho


Murray twins here can be had for under $8 around here. 

See my other posts for why I didn't do a recessed panel..there are four main reasons I didn't. (Wall, live feeder, panel on hand and future expansion).

Ain't a damn thing wrong with those push in MC conns...I was given a box of them by a major EC on a huge job I worked on. They are the greatest thing since sliced bread and fast to install. 

And if you read the posts that old flex is the very old, thick steel that is a real bitch to cut. I have been around long enough to know how to deal with flex... but again, time and wasted effort to cut all that old stuff wasn't worth it...the goal was I had to get this done in one session before it was needed that night. 

Is this an ideal install? No, there are lots of things that could have been different. But it works, passed inspection and got rid of another crap FPE panel. The customer (my friend) is very happy with how it turned out as well. 

And in the end, that's all that matters. :thumbup:


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