# Breakers are “randomly losing power” not tripping



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Some people don’t understand that the tripped position is not the off position. I have had customers tell me that there was no tripped breaker and they checked the panel five times, and I later find that the breaker was clearly tripped. They simply didn’t realize that the tripped position was halfway, they thought it was the off position. Could that be happening in your situation


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

You're going to need to pack a couple weeks worth of clothes and 6 or 12 cases of beer and stand firewatch at that place. At an hourly rate, of course.


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## LibertyRising (Jan 2, 2018)

CoolWill said:


> You're going to need to pack a couple weeks worth of clothes and 6 or 12 cases of beer and stand firewatch at that place. At an hourly rate, of course.


I like the way you think :biggrin:


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## LibertyRising (Jan 2, 2018)

HackWork said:


> Some people don’t understand that the tripped position is not the off position. I have had customers tell me that there was no tripped breaker and they checked the panel five times, and I later find that the breaker was clearly tripped. They simply didn’t realize that the tripped position was halfway, they thought it was the off position. Could that be happening in your situation


Ok, so say they are wrong about the fact the breaker isn’t tripped, and they were actually tripped. 

How can I explain why it happens to seemingly random circuits? No overloads. Lighting circuits are max 1.5 A, outlet on a separate circuit, and no known issues. As far as I know it hasn’t been in three different circuit, is a dedicated circuit.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

@HackWork 's reply is my first guess, the breakers are tripping, the owner just doesn't know what tripped looks like. But if you can confirm that you're still pretty far from an answer. 



I think right off the bat I'd be replacing the breakers that failed and any other essential circuits - refrigerator, sump pump, etc. 



I would put in something to monitor power on the essential circuits and maybe some non-essential and set them up for remote notifications, that's just me, but that isn't wasted money, even if it doesn't solve this problem it's of value to them. 



If the problem continues on the original breakers, and does not continue on the ones you replace, I'd go straight to replacing all the breakers.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

LibertyRising said:


> Ok, so say they are wrong about the fact the breaker isn’t tripped, and they were actually tripped.
> 
> How can I explain why it happens to seemingly random circuits? No overloads. Lighting circuits are max 1.5 A, outlet on a separate circuit, and no known issues. As far as I know it hasn’t been in three different circuit, is a dedicated circuit.


No matter how smart and "with it" a customer seems, they still often make mistakes in explaining things in my experience.

The only other thing I can think of if the customer is correct is some type of surge protection that shuts off and needs power to be reset to it for it to come back online.

I would tell them that you need data to figure this out, and since they don't want to pay you to sleep in their house :biggrin: they have to put a piece of tape near the breaker that they reset to turn the power back on to whatever went out.

Although they may not be happy about it, customers always understand that it is very hard, if not impossible, to find and fix a problem that does not exist when you are there. Chasing a ghost just rings up their bill.


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

Explain the trip/off/on position to him. Until you actually fix a ckt it's hard to know. It could be poor connections from poor workmanship made worse by vibration from it being windy outside. But, your problem is one we rarely see. Who wired the house?
As Hax said, you need data.


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

What about ground faults from moisture wicking up inside the insulation?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

paulengr said:


> What about ground faults from moisture wicking up inside the insulation?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Have there ever been GFCI's that could be reset by turning power to them off and then back on?

Even then, the bedroom circuit probably wouldn't be on that GFCI.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Even smart homeowners don't know what they're talking about.

I wouldn't trust anything he says... not that he's lying... he's ignorant.

Hurricanes drive excessive moisture EVERYWHERE... salty drops, at that.

Their winds are so strong that they blow salt water up into the air... hence 'foaming seas.'


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## LibertyRising (Jan 2, 2018)

Yea, the more I think about it the less sense it makes that the breakers would be losing power but works again when reset, but not actually having been tripped. 

I'll have to look into the idea of some sort of a power monitor, but we'll see if the problems persist and then move forward. 

for those suggesting moisture wicked up the insulation, there wasn't insulation in the lower level, and nothing upstairs where the wiring and devices were located had any kind of water damage at all. The only thing I could buy is the idea that the panel, despite not being flooded could have been subjected to splashing and excessive moisture and humidity, although I didn't really see any signs of corrosion at all, and trust me, almost all ive been doing for the last year has involved ripping out flooded panels and the ones who got wet are clearly obvious compared to the ones that didn't. 

Its just strange to me there would be tripping across a multiple circuits, and to me the common denominator is the panel they are sitting in. Moisture was my first thought, and still is the dominant feeling. 

Next time this happens they are going to call me and not touch the breakers until I get there, and the owner is open for anything I can think of in the meantime.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

LibertyRising said:


> for those suggesting moisture wicked up the insulation, there wasn't insulation in the lower level, and nothing upstairs where the wiring and devices were located had any kind of water damage at all.


 I think he meant the paper in the romex not the fiberglass bats or whatever in the walls.


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## LibertyRising (Jan 2, 2018)

splatz said:


> I think he meant the paper in the romex not the fiberglass bats or whatever in the walls.


Ah

Just seems so unlikely. I don't think its moisture in the wiring at all.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

If there are a number of circuits losing power and no breakers have tripped, I'd look at the feeder to the panel.


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

poor neutral meaning the breaker is not tripped, voltage has dropped on one leg in reference to ground. (has he mentioned anything getting brighter). 
Might even be a fun one like L2 is missing and L1 is using the water heater as a feedback loop thus tripping the heater makes random circuits seem like they have failed. (or the water got hot enough to break the feedback)

Breaker clips are bad due to Chinese drywall eating away at the copper buss so resetting the breaker wiggles the contacts. 

All wild arse guesses until you stick a meter on the wires and see whats really going on.


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## LibertyRising (Jan 2, 2018)

micromind said:


> If there are a number of circuits losing power and no breakers have tripped, I'd look at the feeder to the panel.


its not all at the same time. When it happens its one specific breaker. and that circuit only. 

so far the ones that I have been told about is 
-a bedroom lighting circuit, which carries no outlets at all, so have to rule out a bad appliance being plugged in. HOM AFCI 115

-fridge circuit. Dedicated duplex behind the fridge HOM120

-kitchen lighting circuit - HOM115, again no outlets. 

No gfcis on any of those circuits. Other AFCI lighting circuits seem fine. 

The issues seem to happen when nobody is home. The arrive to find things not working. 

I think I made the correct call to replace the breakers and play the wait and see card.


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## mofos be cray (Nov 14, 2016)

I have had issues with afci homeline breakers tripping adjacent breakers. And also with adjacent breakers tripping afci breakers. You could try moving breakers and see if different ccts trip.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

LibertyRising said:


> Hey forum,
> 
> I have a rather unique situation where a respected customer of mine in a million dollar home is reporting a months long issue where circuits are randomly losing power.
> 
> ...



Corrosion inside circuit breakers may be a genuine contributor . They can get really hot as well. Then the tripping starts. Moisture is an enemy of circuit breakers. Change em out.


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## LibertyRising (Jan 2, 2018)

macmikeman said:


> Corrosion inside circuit breakers may be a genuine contributor . They can get really hot as well. Then the tripping starts. Moisture is an enemy of circuit breakers. Change em out.


this was my first thought. I have been contemplating recommending replacing all the breakers. Should I also be concerned with the main breakers?


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Try doing a search for Brian John's fall of potential testing methods. It might even be a sticky someplace around here. 

Yes to your question , it could affect the main as well if the main is located in that area.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

LibertyRising said:


> this was my first thought. I have been contemplating recommending replacing all the breakers. Should I also be concerned with the main breakers?


I think this is going overboard. Replace the ones that were tripping, not all of them and not the main.

Breaker panels are located outside in the humidity and moisture thruout the country.


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

He should set up an alarm that notifies him when that fridge circuit goes down, even after you have everything fixed. It's his weekend hideout and nobody's there during the week. 

Do these circuits run in the attic? Critters up there chewing away?


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

We all know breakers are cheap to buy and easy to swap out.
I would remove all of the breakers including the main. clean the bus and install new breakers. Make sure to bag up and discard all of the breakers. They might look ok, some might be but, toss all of them.
It's not worth any one's time to chase a ghost. The procedure will eliminate the breakers completely for the price of a fancy study of the problem.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Southeast Power said:


> We all know breakers are cheap to buy and easy to swap out.
> I would remove all of the breakers including the main. clean the bus and install new breakers. Make sure to bag up and discard all of the breakers. They might look ok, some might be but, toss all of them.
> It's not worth any one's time to chase a ghost. The procedure will eliminate the breakers completely for the price of a fancy study of the problem.


In all my years, I have never heard this before. Seems extreme at this point.


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## CTshockhazard (Aug 28, 2009)

Could be as simple as the lugs were never tightened and switching the breaker moves the conductor enough to remake contact.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

I'd rather be the sharpshooter that figures out the problem with pinpoint testing and troubleshooting, but with an intermittent problem like this, that can take WAY more than half a day. 

This is where you have to be careful. Let's say you can replace all the breakers for $500. And let's say half a day troubleshooting is $500. 

If you replace all the breakers and go home and wait and see, and it turns out it's fixed, you guessed right, you're the hero. If it's not fixed, at least you've eliminated the breakers, and he has nice new breakers properly torqued. AND, you have made one definite step forward, you've eliminated the breakers. 

I'd make notes on everything, and label every breaker and set them aside just in case I want to check something after the fact. I'd inspect everything carefully, maybe even check the torque before I remove them. 

Before I went to this step, I'd replace the breakers that have made trouble, inspect everything. I'd hedge because it's a weird problem and I don't trust the homeowner's report 100%. 

I would clamp the problem circuits before and after for a bit and see if I get lucky and catch anything. I don't like the idea of leaving something that's going to trip and hoping the breaker catches it. 

I would offer the monitoring 100%, that's a no brainer to me on the essential circuits (refrigerator, freezer, alarm panel, sump pump, etc.) in a vacation home. 

I'd plan on replacing all the breakers on my next visit if there's a failure on a new circuit that hasn't caused trouble before. 

If the problem recurs on one of the circuits with new breakers, I'd be camping out, and prepare the homeowner for that now.


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## cdslotz (Jun 10, 2008)

Southeast Power said:


> We all know breakers are cheap to buy and easy to swap out.
> I would remove all of the breakers including the main. clean the bus and install new breakers. Make sure to bag up and discard all of the breakers. They might look ok, some might be but, toss all of them.
> It's not worth any one's time to chase a ghost. The procedure will eliminate the breakers completely for the price of a fancy study of the problem.


This^^^but while you have the breakers out, check the integrity of the buss for cracks and corrosion


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Hurricanes mean salt.

Salt that gets everywhere.

It doesn't take much for it to befoul all things electrical.

Salt contains chlorine -- duh -- which goes to town on all things aluminum.

Put a lug in salt water and come back in a week. Heh.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

LibertyRising said:


> Hey forum,
> 
> I have a rather unique situation where a respected customer of mine in a million dollar home is reporting a months long issue where circuits are randomly losing power.
> 
> ...



If all of the affected circuits are on the same leg - check this panel's main, or the feeder main, is there a generator transfer switch?


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

HackWork said:


> In all my years, I have never heard this before. Seems extreme at this point.


Just think about how much extreme you hear and see after 35 years. :biggrin:
Point being, we have to assume the OP checked the feeder terminations and suspect the breaker are the problem and cannot pinpoint the exact circuits. The reasoning in if a few breakers are considered to be contaminated by moisture, it’s a bad gamble to keep any of them in service.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Southeast Power said:


> Just think about how much extreme you hear and see after 35 years. :biggrin:
> Point being, we have to assume the OP checked the feeder terminations and suspect the breaker are the problem and cannot pinpoint the exact circuits. The reasoning in if a few breakers are considered to be contaminated by moisture, it’s a bad gamble to keep any of them in service.


I'm not sure if he checked those things.

I still think another hour of work is in order before the old switcheroo. He mentioned AFCIs, this panel might very well cost $600-800 to change out all the breakers and main.

What if he does that, it doesn't fix the problem, then after spending an hour or so afterwards he finds the problem? That's when the customer gets pissed that he paid for the breakers to be changed.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

HackWork said:


> I'm not sure if he checked those things.
> 
> I still think another hour of work is in order before the old switcheroo. He mentioned AFCIs, this panel might very well cost $600-800 to change out all the breakers and main.
> 
> What if he does that, it doesn't fix the problem, then after spending an hour or so afterwards he finds the problem? That's when the customer gets pissed that he paid for the breakers to be changed.


Arc faults, problems in the bedroom...I still think $600-$800 would be a gift.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Southeast Power said:


> Arc faults, problems in the bedroom...I still think $600-$800 would be a gift.


I just don't see it. 

I think it's a common case of someone looking at a job for an hour, not finding anything, going to think about it and get advice, then going back to figure it out.

If I walked into every troubleshooting service call like this and sold a $600-800 breaker change-out that has a random chance of fixing the problem, I would find myself saying creepy things to a Playboy model on hidden camera television.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

HackWork said:


> I just don't see it.
> 
> I think it's a common case of someone looking at a job for an hour, not finding anything, going to think about it and get advice, then going back to figure it out.
> 
> If I walked into every troubleshooting service call like this and sold a $600-800 breaker change-out that has a random chance of fixing the problem, I would find myself saying creepy things to a Playboy model on hidden camera television.


Understood but, it’s really down to the breakers.
The conversation should be something along the lines of 
No doubt the breakers were over exposed to moisture and some need to be changed. Trouble is, we can’t be sure which ones are the problem without doing some testing that will cost more than the cost of changing them all.
Once we take the maybe out of the problem, we can do proper troubleshooting.

No one in there right mind is going to do a fall of potential test on a few dozen $4 breakers.


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

I had similar situation a few years ago

The reason it was different breakers at different times was that the customer only noticed certain circuits being out

Turned out to be burnt lug in meter base

But I would replace some branch breakers as recommended by others if I couldn't find lug or busbar problem


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## FishinElectrcian (Jul 18, 2019)

Well I think I read most of that or skimmed it. 

Definitely replace affected breakers, at least you have done something.

Check neutral tightness and look for corrosion there. 

Feel the meter, see if it's hot.. I had a meter lug burn out a while ago too. I don't think it's that but a little feel on the outside and you can usually tell if it's warm in there.

Now you also mention flooding up to 3' of water.. Maybe open up some of those boxes that are down low and see if there's some wicked corrosion in them. I dealt with a couple flood repairs and crap and silt filled up a lot of those lower boxes. That was when the Bow river flooded years ago. 

Could also be something like the neutral getting partial contact to ground at least on the afci circuit. If neutral bumps ground it will trip. Ran into a weird one on a brand new house recently, the carpenters saw plugged into a kitchen outlet made enough noise to trip an outside AFCI/GFI that wasn't even in play. Voodoo frickin breakers.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

I've learned that even a little bit of current through a breaker with a bad bus connection can get it hot enough to trip. I'd go and load up a bunch of circuits and see what happens.


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