# Contractor wants to avoid electrical engineer



## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

Do you have a load calc?
That's how it works here.

Up to 400A res and 600A commercial can be done by the EC.
Any bigger and it requires a PE.

Every state is different. What state is the job in?

You could also hire the EE yourself.


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## Ostrich Society (Dec 14, 2021)

I’m in Colorado. not sure what the load calc is, I have a meeting on Wednesday to get a better idea of a scope of work.

I’ve done the design/build thing on smaller commercial and large residential projects which did not require an engineer but I am under the impression this job is going to be bigger based on my preliminary conversations with the contractor.

You’re right though if the demand load is big enough an engineer would have to be involved. I hadn’t considered hiring an engineer, that’s something I will keep in mind for my upcoming meeting. Maybe some larger shops often establish a relationship and work with an engineer. Being a small shop I haven’t found myself in this position before.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Big, small, what’s the difference? The biggest service I’ve done is 800 amps. Done a few of them. You just need to figure out the load. Then it’s off to the utility to figure out how to get it to the site. Supply houses have experts on building the right switchgear. I find engineers to be more trouble than their worth.


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## 205490 (Jun 23, 2020)

Here in Ca the prints have to be wet stamped by the PE. No approved prints from building dept, no job. Plus title 24.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

I just ran through a sample inspection request( MN). Under 600 volts, more than 800 amps, one service, and 20 circuits or feeders under 200 amps. Nothing required from the state except $220 dollars. I’ve done several 800 amp services and would wonder what an engineer would bring to the party?


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

If it is a standard warehouse / office building / commercial use, our education, training and subsequent testing should equip us to be able to do a job like this. I have done many office buildings and manufacturing facilities without an engineers design. Maybe if there is some exotic or specialty stuff involved then you might need a specialty engineer such as a hazmat engineer. There may be an issue with your insurance coverage or the municipality you are in. If I do not know the landlord or the GC then I stress they consult with an engineer so that they take any blame but I find , as Backstay said, engineers sometimes mess things up. For the towns that did required a stamp, the engineer came to us to do the layout and service equipment then they put it on paper.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

backstay said:


> I just ran through a sample inspection request( MN). Under 600 volts, more than 800 amps, one service, and 20 circuits or feeders under 200 amps. Nothing required from the state except $220 dollars. I’ve done several 800 amp services and would wonder what an engineer would bring to the party?


A big bill?


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## Ostrich Society (Dec 14, 2021)

kb1jb1 said:


> If it is a standard warehouse / office building / commercial use, our education, training and subsequent testing should equip us to be able to do a job like this. I have done many office buildings and manufacturing facilities without an engineers design. Maybe if there is some exotic or specialty stuff involved then you might need a specialty engineer such as a hazmat engineer. There may be an issue with your insurance coverage or the municipality you are in. If I do not know the landlord or the GC then I stress they consult with an engineer so that they take any blame but I find , as Backstay said, engineers sometimes mess things up. For the towns that did required a stamp, the engineer came to us to do the layout and service equipment then they put it on paper.


Awesome thanks for this. It helped me put this job in perspective. My concern was the ol blame game. I’ve always enjoyed the comfort of a buffer between myself and the project design. But you’re right, if this turns out to not be anything over the top or special circumstances, then I’ve just probably been over thinking it and just a little outside my normal comfort zone.


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## tmessner (Apr 1, 2013)

In rural MN no engineer is required. We have done churches, large dairies, industrial, ag with services of 2000 amp 480 volts design build. Just do your homework with the project owner for load calcs and add large for the future they forget to tell you about.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Ostrich Society said:


> Awesome thanks for this. It helped me put this job in perspective. My concern was the ol blame game. I’ve always enjoyed the comfort of a buffer between myself and the project design. But you’re right, if this turns out to not be anything over the top or special circumstances, then I’ve just probably been over thinking it and just a little outside my normal comfort zone.


I remember back around 2001 I wired this guy's house. I did not know him and he did not know me. One of the carpenters gave my name to him and things went well. After the house he asked me to wire a building he bought for his new office / shop. It was at this point I realized how big of a contractor he was. The building was a complete gut and rewire of a 120,000 sq-ft building and I was way out of my comfort zone. He reassured me and it turned out it was one of the biggest jobs I ever did and I made money on the project. I saw all the machines and equipment that was being installed. The HVAC loads, the lighting loads the square footage loads and did the load calculation. Sized the service, the distribution, the feeders, the fire pump feeder, etc.. It was a lot of work and pressure but I enjoyed it. I upped my insurance but that was all part of the cost. The main thing is you have to be comfortable. I have seen some really big hacks doing large jobs and I have seen excellent electrical contractors talent being wasted on dead beat jobs.


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## 205490 (Jun 23, 2020)

backstay said:


> I just ran through a sample inspection request( MN). Under 600 volts, more than 800 amps, one service, and 20 circuits or feeders under 200 amps. Nothing required from the state except $220 dollars. I’ve done several 800 amp services and would wonder what an engineer would bring to the party?


Liability Insurance, Errors and Omissions Insurance. When I got my license 30 yrs ago the registrar made it very clear. As a contractor you execute the work designed by others. Of course we all still have to do build design but I prefer design build.


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## BleedingLungsMurphy (10 mo ago)

Why do you need an engineer for a photocopy of a typical warehouse blueprint? Is there any special equipment being installed? Typical warehouse here is just a 600v/400 amp main disconnect -> tap box -> 200amp fused disconnects -> 347/600v-120/208v-75KVA transformer wall mounted or hanging in each bay. Front offices just bare bones with a bathroom. If tenants want some fancy equipment let them hire an engineer and build to their spec.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Ostrich Society said:


> Now here is the thing, he asked if I would design the build so he could not hire an electrical engineer. I am planning to decline and instead offer my services for doing the work after an engineer has drawn some plans.



So I guess I'll be in the minority on this but I am a big fan of working inside your comfort zone. 

Are you getting paid for the design? Or are you expected to do the design and present a proposal, and you build recouping the cost of the design into the proposal? If that's the case, what's to stop him from taking your free design from the proposal and shopping? You could wind up getting paid $0 to do the design for a competitor. 

Electrical service and power distribution for a warehouse may not be all that complicated but small mistakes can be very expensive, I have seen this. Big contractors can absorb expensive mistakes, small contractors can not. If there's a dispute, you might eventually get paid, but you could wind up off the job and chasing your money in court a while. Or you might wind up on the hook for it. 

You might be better off money wise hiring an engineer yourself, as long as you can cover the cost. Some engineers are expensive, some are reasonable. Even if the engineer's hourly rate is a lot higher than yours, he can do it a lot faster than you. Put it this way, say you do a residential service upgrade on Monday and pay the engineer's bill with what you make on that job. Or could you do the design for the job on Monday. Which is better? 

But if you hire the engineer, you could still wind up with a dispute for an expensive mistake, going after the engineer's E&O insurance etc. will take time, the contractor will just go after the sub (you) and let you go after the engineer. If the contractor hires the engineer, things are simpler. 

Generally an electrician has a good knowledge of the code, especially the parts they have to think about on a daily basis, but not necessarily all that goes into the design, the NEC is not a design manual. If you build a lot of warehouses to the prints, if you pay attention to the details and differences, you may gain a good knowledge of the design over time. Still it's not the same as going through the process from scratch. If you hire an engineer, even just for your first one, you can ask questions and get a better idea of the process.


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## Veteran Sparky (Apr 21, 2021)

MikeFL said:


> *You could also hire the EE yourself.*


This...is what I do. If the municipality requires Stamped drawings for permit...what are you going to do? It is not the electricians job to design. In a court of law the judge doesn't care if you CAN, he cares if you're QUALIFIED.

I run into this weekly!


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Veteran Sparky said:


> This...is what I do. If the municipality requires Stamped drawings for permit...what are you going to do? It is not the electricians job to design. In a court of law the judge doesn't care if you CAN, he cares if you're QUALIFIED.
> 
> I run into this weekly!


What makes an engineer who only works with paper and computers more qualified than an experienced electrical contractor. If we follow the engineer's plans for everything then we are only wiremen following directions. What is our years of schooling and testing for? There are many situations where the engineer is needed like a shopping mall, public works, or other large complicated buildings. Also if you are building something that requires interconnection of different systems such as a sewage treatment plant. There you have electric, plumbing, environmental, fluid dynamics, structural, plus many more. On a straight cut building what is there. Lighting, we can do it. The service, receptacles, HVAC, all stuff that we are use to. Probably the biggest thing is the risk exposure, which they charge big for. Again the electrician has to be experienced in the work. I would not advocate a residential guy jumping into a 20,000 sq-ft building but start small.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

I have to add, yes you charge for the design and your time.


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

I would estimate a marina based on my understanding. Then I would qualify my bid that it does not include engineering fees and they would be passed on to the customer at a cost plus 0%, plus I had the clause that my price was based on the engineer accepting our design.

I would make my own drawings anywhere the EE stamp was not required. I even stamped them with my corporate seal and I believe one locality assumed it was an EE stamp. Most jobs required PE stamped drawings.

They will accept a PE stamped drawing even if the PE was trained in chemical engineering. I had a friend that was a PE and he was willing to stamp small drawing for me for gas stations rework. It was crazy that they even wanted a PE stamped drawing for electrical gas station rework (fuel system only). I would have to tell the engineer what equipment we were using and how it should be wired. Crazy,


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

CA C-10 said:


> Liability Insurance, Errors and Omissions Insurance. When I got my license 30 yrs ago the registrar made it very clear. As a contractor you execute the work designed by others. Of course we all still have to do build design but I prefer design build.


Here is Minnesota’s. Notice they qualify a BA in EE or experience the same. They use the word laying out, I don’t think they are talking setting the parts out.


- An applicant for a Class A Master Electrician's license shall
(a) hold a bachelor's degree in electrical engineering; or
(b) shall have at least one year's experience, acceptable to the board, as a licensed journeyman; or
(c) shall have at least five years' experience, acceptable to the board, in planning for, laying out, supervising and installing wiring, apparatus, or equipment for electrical light, heat, and power.


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## HertzHound (Jan 22, 2019)

We do it, but it’s more for a budget. My employer gets paid for the design. They start with a budget for the design through the customer. We get it as accurate as we can, then my employer puts a price or allowance on it. After that, if the price is doable, it goes to an engineer. If fixtures, feeder size, etc. changes, there could be a change in the price. My employer gets covered for the time through the whole process. I don’t think my employer wants to be on the hook for the final design, or have to pay for the error and omissions insurance.

I know larger EC’s have an engineering team in house. I guess there’s a point where you have to make the leap to that type of buisiness structure. On a smaller scale we all do design/build. I’m not sure where the line is drawn where a job is truly considered design/build.

On another note, there are five milestones in any project. 100 through 500. The A&E take it to level 300. The contractor takes it to 500. 100 is the conceptual design and rough budget. In the title block you sometimes see it as %CD, where 100%CD (contract document) is level 300.









Level of Detail


The intent of the BIM Execution Plan (BEP) is to define a foundational framework to ensure successful deployment of advanced design technologies.




www.gsa.gov


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

backstay said:


> Here is Minnesota’s. Notice they qualify a BA in EE or experience the same. They use the word laying out, I don’t think they are talking setting the parts out.
> 
> 
> - An applicant for a Class A Master Electrician's license shall
> ...


to me the "layout" suggests
proper placement of lighting etc.
proper placement of multiple wiring runs, etc.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

I design the electrical system on every job I work on. I see no difference in approach from a three bedroom home to the 90 x 60 heavy equipment repair shop I finished. In my mind a master electrician has to know how to design an electrical system. If all I need to do is follow someone else’s plans, I’m a journeyman. Why would most states require an EC to have only one master? They don’t require them to have one EE.


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## tmessner (Apr 1, 2013)

backstay said:


> I design the electrical system on every job I work on. I see no difference in approach from a three bedroom home to the 90 x 60 heavy equipment repair shop I finished. In my mind a master electrician has to know how to design an electrical system. If all I need to do is follow someone else’s plans, I’m a journeyman. Why would most states require an EC to have only one master? They don’t require them to have one EE.


Well said. I think the fine print of an engineers plans says something like he is not responsible for code compliance, so it still the EC who is on the hook.


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

Ever been in a meeting and hear "I'm just the dumb contractor, you guys need to tell me what to do."?  Ever use that line?


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

No


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## Veteran Sparky (Apr 21, 2021)

kb1jb1 said:


> What makes an engineer who only works with paper and computers more qualified than an experienced electrical contractor. If we follow the engineer's plans for everything then we are only wiremen following directions. What is our years of schooling and testing for? There are many situations where the engineer is needed like a shopping mall, public works, or other large complicated buildings. Also if you are building something that requires interconnection of different systems such as a sewage treatment plant. There you have electric, plumbing, environmental, fluid dynamics, structural, plus many more. On a straight cut building what is there. Lighting, we can do it. The service, receptacles, HVAC, all stuff that we are use to. Probably the biggest thing is the risk exposure, which they charge big for. Again the electrician has to be experienced in the work. I would not advocate a residential guy jumping into a 20,000 sq-ft building but start small.


Maybe read my post again before you get to excited. I don't know where you work...but I live near and do work in one of the largest cities in the country. You cannot pull a permit for electrical work without stamped sealed engineered drawings, unless it falls under the minor repair exception. I never said we are not capable...quite the contrary. Yes, we did schooling and years of experience, however without engineer stamp it doesn't mean **** in court.
Do you get ENG fee for design? I bet you don't.


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## Veteran Sparky (Apr 21, 2021)

This countries construction is a Fn joke. Accountability, regulation, licensing needs an enigma. The crap that continues frustrates the hell out of me. Building is supposed to have a process. Conseption-Design-Permit-Build.
We build. Like it or not. Many engineers if not most are primadona's. They don't like being questioned even though many times they are wrong. What you should do to maybe help our business is explain and educate people on how 'it's suppose to work'. Most contractors I speak to are oblivious to many things but because it's been going on for so long they think it's right. How many time has a customer of yours...(and I dont mean resi) tried to bully you into the design because they don't want to pay. **** that.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Veteran Sparky said:


> Maybe read my post again before you get to excited. I don't know where you work...but I live near and do work in one of the largest cities in the country. You cannot pull a permit for electrical work without stamped sealed engineered drawings, unless it falls under the minor repair exception. I never said we are not capable...quite the contrary. Yes, we did schooling and years of experience, however without engineer stamp it doesn't mean **** in court.
> Do you get ENG fee for design? I bet you don't.


Are you saying to wire a new home it has to be engineered? Or is there some threshold?


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## Veteran Sparky (Apr 21, 2021)

backstay said:


> Are you saying to wire a new home it has to be engineered? Or is there some threshold?


Like I said in my last post NOT RESI. I do not do resi. I am talking about commercial in particular.
But since you mention it...don't you think a Dwelling should be engineered? Do you trust all the fly by night wannabe sparky's to design electrical in a home your children will live in?


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Veteran Sparky said:


> Like I said in my last post NOT RESI. I do not do resi. I am talking about commercial in particular.
> But since you mention it...don't you think a Dwelling should be engineered? Do you trust all the fly by night wannabe sparky's to design electrical in a home your children will live in?


So is non dwelling electrical always engineered in your state? Or is there a threshold, amps, volts, sq ft?


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## Veteran Sparky (Apr 21, 2021)

backstay said:


> So is non dwelling electrical always engineered in your state? Or is there a threshold, amps, volts, sq ft?


Are you looking for a fight? Are you dense? What part of I don't do resi do you not understand? If you are only resi you are in a different world than me and maybe should not comment on this thread, because you obviously do not deal with the same things. If you want to design build for resi, than be my guest. Just stop making comments out of your ass.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Veteran Sparky said:


> Are you looking for a fight? Are you dense? What part of I don't do resi do you not understand? If you are only resi you are in a different world than me and maybe should not comment on this thread, because you obviously do not deal with the same things. If you want to design build for resi, than be my guest. Just stop making comments out of your ass.


Non dwelling is commercial/ industrial. That’s what I was asking about. I don’t know why you think I want a fight. Just looking for information. In my state there is no difference for what I work on. I can be wiring a gas station, super market, dairy farm, solar site, cell tower, without an engineer. I spent 20 years as an industrial electrician, 20 as an EC. I just find it interesting the different rules in other places. If that’s a problem, it’s yours.


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## Veteran Sparky (Apr 21, 2021)

backstay said:


> Non dwelling is commercial/ industrial. That’s what I was asking about. I don’t know why you think I want a fight. Just looking for information. In my state there is no difference for what I work on. I can be wiring a gas station, super market, dairy farm, solar site, cell tower, without an engineer. I spent 20 years as an industrial electrician, 20 as an EC. I just find it interesting the different rules in other places. If that’s a problem, it’s yours.


I apologize backstay...I misread where you said 'Non dwelling'. Maybe if I shed some light on Pa's electrical licensing. Pa has no Electrical State license. Contractors, no matter the trade, need a State business license to legally work. To work in Philadelphia, or Pittsburg and some other cities, you require their license. We have Phila and NJ license. NJ is state license. Phila is basically the Masters with other questions regarding business. Pa is made up of Cities, Counties, Townships and Boro's. Some Townships require a Masters. Some require absolutely nothing. All just want your money.
Some towns like Bethlehem, have there own license (Masters) but have no reciprocity with Philly, because Philly pissed them off and did not accept their license. Another thing we deal with. New commercial or industrial construction in Philly requires stamped engineered drawings. However some areas accept architect drawing up electrical, which is total bullshit. Than what happens is EC needs to design when things are wrong. Owner gets pissed because EC tells them Architect is wrong. Blah Blah Blah. You also have these primadonna 'design companies' who dont know anything about electrical who make the drawings and there are discrepancies after discrepancy. EC has to deal with it. My whole point of all this is ...IT IS NOT THE EC's JOB TO ENGINEER THE JOB.
Owner Pays Engineer, engineer designs, EC follows engineer design. If changes needed, it all has to be signed by the parties. This...is how it is supposed to work. But in Pa it is so convoluted job to job will be different depending on the local. Does this make sense to you?


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## BleedingLungsMurphy (10 mo ago)

Veteran Sparky said:


> Owner Pays Engineer, engineer designs, EC follows engineer design. If changes needed, it all has to be signed by the parties. This...is how it is supposed to work. But in Pa it is so convoluted job to job will be different depending on the local. Does this make sense to you?


Are you even allowed to hire an engineer or is there a specific requirement that the owner hires a third party? I do not envy you. Sounds like a convoluted nightmare.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

In Minnesota, the plumbers can’t do any commercial work until the state approves their plan. I can wire a nuke plant with no plan as far as the state cares!


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Veteran Sparky said:


> Maybe read my post again before you get to excited. I don't know where you work...but I live near and do work in one of the largest cities in the country. You cannot pull a permit for electrical work without stamped sealed engineered drawings, unless it falls under the minor repair exception. I never said we are not capable...quite the contrary. Yes, we did schooling and years of experience, however without engineer stamp it doesn't mean **** in court.
> Do you get ENG fee for design? I bet you don't.


OK. City work I can understand. Too many variables for an electrical contractor.


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## 205490 (Jun 23, 2020)

I had a job last year where I had to get a title 24 engineer for 12 drop ins🤣


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

backstay said:


> I just ran through a sample inspection request( MN). Under 600 volts, more than 800 amps, one service, and 20 circuits or feeders under 200 amps. Nothing required from the state except $220 dollars. I’ve done several 800 amp services and would wonder what an engineer would bring to the party?


The vast majority of EEs would most likely bring a stupid design that would cost way more than needed plus a huge ego......and not much else. 

A few EEs would bring a great design that would be easy to install, answer questions before they become problems .......and a whole slew of other stuff that would benefit the job.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

CA C-10 said:


> I had a job last year where I had to get a title 24 engineer for 12 drop ins🤣


California, comrade??


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

kb1jb1 said:


> If it is a standard warehouse / office building / commercial use, our education, training and subsequent testing should equip us to be able to do a job like this. I have done many office buildings and manufacturing facilities without an engineers design. Maybe if there is some exotic or specialty stuff involved then you might need a specialty engineer such as a hazmat engineer. There may be an issue with your insurance coverage or the municipality you are in. If I do not know the landlord or the GC then I stress they consult with an engineer so that they take any blame but I find , as Backstay said, engineers sometimes mess things up. For the towns that did required a stamp, the engineer came to us to do the layout and service equipment then they put it on paper.


Speaking as an engineer, correct and thank you. And the problem engineers are the ones afflicted with the god complex. You know, they need a 36” wide door so their ego can fit through it. I’m not a church goer but I kind of believe in the idea that nobody is perfect.

An engineer can and should make your job easier and cost less, or at least keep you out of trouble. They can and should go to bat for you on technical problems. You can and should hire them for large or complex jobs.

But what you may not be aware of is there has been an ongoing political attempt to inject engineers into everything. This has been going on since the earliest days. The AIME (predecessor to IEEE) and SME promoted education, developing model standards, and promoting good practices to support industry and society. Things like WiFi, Ethernet, MP3s, HDTV, and even electrical standards (NESC, the ANSI Cxx series, IEEE 1584) are promoted by these groups. The other faction, mostly driven by ASCE sought to make it a license scheme to force everyone to deal with them as a trade guild. Today the guilders have been getting dramatically more powerful. They are pushing the idea to require stamped drawings for virtually everything. I’m all for it if they are financially on the hook for their screw ups! That’s where it falls apart and why like everything else that is wrong with the elitists needs to be fought.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

paulengr said:


> Speaking as an engineer, correct and thank you. And the problem engineers are the ones afflicted with the god complex. You know, they need a 36” wide door so their ego can fit through it. I’m not a church goer but I kind of believe in the idea that nobody is perfect.
> 
> An engineer can and should make your job easier and cost less, or at least keep you out of trouble. They can and should go to bat for you on technical problems. You can and should hire them for large or complex jobs.
> 
> But what you may not be aware of is there has been an ongoing political attempt to inject engineers into everything. This has been going on since the earliest days. The AIME (predecessor to IEEE) and SME promoted education, developing model standards, and promoting good practices to support industry and society. Things like WiFi, Ethernet, MP3s, HDTV, and even electrical standards (NESC, the ANSI Cxx series, IEEE 1584) are promoted by these groups. The other faction, mostly driven by ASCE sought to make it a license scheme to force everyone to deal with them as a trade guild. Today the guilders have been getting dramatically more powerful. They are pushing the idea to require stamped drawings for virtually everything. I’m all for it if they are financially on the hook for their screw ups! That’s where it falls apart and why like everything else that is wrong with the elitists needs to be fought.


Your comment started to restore my belief in engineers. Many contractors find grief working with them. As you said they should make our job easier which is good. Often times they will spec out complicated stuff when simple will do. I once had to install daylight harvesting in rooms with no windows. With the advent of CAD, they can make mistakes and it will be easy for them correct but hard on the contractor. I remember many years ago they would pick the lighting, the switchgear, distribution, all to our benefit but over the years it seems that they have several different people working on the plans and they do not talk with each other. Also today's engineers have little field experience. Maybe we have to communicate with them more.


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

kb1jb1 said:


> Your comment started to restore my belief in engineers. Many contractors find grief working with them. As you said they should make our job easier which is good. Often times they will spec out complicated stuff when simple will do. I once had to install daylight harvesting in rooms with no windows. With the advent of CAD, they can make mistakes and it will be easy for them correct but hard on the contractor. I remember many years ago they would pick the lighting, the switchgear, distribution, all to our benefit but over the years it seems that they have several different people working on the plans and they do not talk with each other. Also today's engineers have little field experience. Maybe we have to communicate with them more.


How? Do you realize that the engineering hours requirement for licensing does not recognize field experience? Without field experience they have no understanding or knowledge. NFPA 70E says that someone that is qualified has knowledge and experience of the design, construction, and operation of the equipment. Many engineers run arc flash studies by punching in a lot of computer data and printing out a report. But they are unable to understand the language of 70E when it states that an arc flash hazard exists ONLY when doing something that can create an uncontrolled arc. They stupidly print out stickers that use the incorrect word “danger” and state that there is something magic that they are unable to explain at 40 cals. They aren’t even qualified to collect their own data or recognize that LOTO IS energized work, or that energized work cannot be avoided. They can’t understand why excessive PPE is a greater hazard. They can’t tell you how to reduce it because they have zero experience where it counts. They will stupidly design excessively large transformers and switchgear then slap an arc flash sticker on it and tell you that it can’t be maintained. If you are lucky they will tell you it still needs maintenance so just shut the plant down and go dark every other weekend. That’s for the serious safety stuff. I recently explained to an engineer how to reduce his calculated 100 cal arc flash to 2.5 cal. Even after he finally accepted the idea it took him fully 25 minutes to calculate the result that I calculated in my head in 10 seconds.dds
.

The drawing error stuff is just ridiculous. We all make mistakes. But it used to be that drawings had 3 signatures. There was the draftsman, engineer, and checker. These days there is only one signature or all 3 are the same. So whether they do their own drawings instead of using a draftsman, nobody is checking the work. Quality has gone to crap as a result. And even if there is a checker, none are formally trained in inspection methods.

So garbage in, garbage out. Should be no surprise to anyone.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

paulengr said:


> How? Do you realize that the engineering hours requirement for licensing does not recognize field experience? Without field experience they have no understanding or knowledge. NFPA 70E says that someone that is qualified has knowledge and experience of the design, construction, and operation of the equipment. Many engineers run arc flash studies by punching in a lot of computer data and printing out a report. But they are unable to understand the language of 70E when it states that an arc flash hazard exists ONLY when doing something that can create an uncontrolled arc. They stupidly print out stickers that use the incorrect word “danger” and state that there is something magic that they are unable to explain at 40 cals. They aren’t even qualified to collect their own data or recognize that LOTO IS energized work, or that energized work cannot be avoided. They can’t understand why excessive PPE is a greater hazard. They can’t tell you how to reduce it because they have zero experience where it counts. They will stupidly design excessively large transformers and switchgear then slap an arc flash sticker on it and tell you that it can’t be maintained. If you are lucky they will tell you it still needs maintenance so just shut the plant down and go dark every other weekend. That’s for the serious safety stuff. I recently explained to an engineer how to reduce his calculated 100 cal arc flash to 2.5 cal. Even after he finally accepted the idea it took him fully 25 minutes to calculate the result that I calculated in my head in 10 seconds.dds
> .
> 
> The drawing error stuff is just ridiculous. We all make mistakes. But it used to be that drawings had 3 signatures. There was the draftsman, engineer, and checker. These days there is only one signature or all 3 are the same. So whether they do their own drawings instead of using a draftsman, nobody is checking the work. Quality has gone to crap as a result. And even if there is a checker, none are formally trained in inspection methods.
> ...


dont forget copy and paste, i have seen sooo many drawings where that was the only error, but it was more than once


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

Almost Retired said:


> dont forget copy and paste, i have seen sooo many drawings where that was the only error, but it was more than once


When I saw "stuff" on drawings that obviously didn't apply (because of copy/paste) or didn't make sense, it made me wonder how much other "stuff" on the drawings is unintentional.


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## Veteran Sparky (Apr 21, 2021)

paulengr said:


> How? Do you realize that the engineering hours requirement for licensing does not recognize field experience? Without field experience they have no understanding or knowledge. NFPA 70E says that someone that is qualified has knowledge and experience of the design, construction, and operation of the equipment. Many engineers run arc flash studies by punching in a lot of computer data and printing out a report. But they are unable to understand the language of 70E when it states that an arc flash hazard exists ONLY when doing something that can create an uncontrolled arc. They stupidly print out stickers that use the incorrect word “danger” and state that there is something magic that they are unable to explain at 40 cals. They aren’t even qualified to collect their own data or recognize that LOTO IS energized work, or that energized work cannot be avoided. They can’t understand why excessive PPE is a greater hazard. They can’t tell you how to reduce it because they have zero experience where it counts. They will stupidly design excessively large transformers and switchgear then slap an arc flash sticker on it and tell you that it can’t be maintained. If you are lucky they will tell you it still needs maintenance so just shut the plant down and go dark every other weekend. That’s for the serious safety stuff. I recently explained to an engineer how to reduce his calculated 100 cal arc flash to 2.5 cal. Even after he finally accepted the idea it took him fully 25 minutes to calculate the result that I calculated in my head in 10 seconds.dds
> .
> 
> The drawing error stuff is just ridiculous. We all make mistakes. But it used to be that drawings had 3 signatures. There was the draftsman, engineer, and checker. These days there is only one signature or all 3 are the same. So whether they do their own drawings instead of using a draftsman, nobody is checking the work. Quality has gone to crap as a result. And even if there is a checker, none are formally trained in inspection methods.
> ...


Well said. There is no accountability. I am all for allowing qualified electricians to design, I have even told owners that the electrician should be used in the design process with the engineer. Unfortunately without Eng seal, most municipalities I deal with that require stamped drawings, require eng seal.


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## Ostrich Society (Dec 14, 2021)

Met with the contractor this week and figured I'd let you all know how it played out. 

The job turns out to be in the next county over from me and they require an engineer, so that settles that. The space is going to be used by one of two potential tenants, either in the cannabis industry or a specialty parts manufacturing company. The contractor had no issue with getting an engineer but wanted to include me on the design and give me a chance to offer my input, and moving forward would like me to be in contact with the engineer. He is willing to pay so all of my time is compensated and has no other interest in trying to shop for another electrician. Overall I am excited about the project, this is the first of 3 of this identical footprint, so this should be good steady work for a while.

I wanted to thank you all for the interesting and thoughtful discussion, I learned a ton about a topic I really hadn't given much thought to.

Much love from CO


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

Thank you for the update. Good luck pulling it all together, sounds promising.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

Thank You for the Update !
we seldom get those !


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## 205490 (Jun 23, 2020)

Yes, that sounds great. Collaboration can provide the customer with a good outcome. Hope it all works out well 👍


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

Veteran Sparky said:


> Well said. There is no accountability. I am all for allowing qualified electricians to design, I have even told owners that the electrician should be used in the design process with the engineer. Unfortunately without Eng seal, most municipalities I deal with that require stamped drawings, require eng seal.


Not their choice. It is law in most states that even where exceptions exist, there are no exceptions for utilities and some government offices. It’s protectionism at its finest.


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