# Industrial Help Needed



## WronGun

Im planning out the install of a Trumatic 7000 with True Flow 4000 and Laser Process Cooler. 

I’ve figured a connected load of 87KVA 

A few things I need to consider and not to sure about. 

1. Impermissible Voltage fluctuations reducing performance. Should a voltage stabilizer or a regulated isolating transformer be considered? 

2. Fuse protection is listed as 125/125/160 
Why does the C-phase show as higher protection? 
(Conductors L1, L2, L3, PE)(THHN 2000Volt)

3. Would a Residual Current Device be standard practice here ? If so, Again would an unregulated isolating transformer be used with an RCD in this scenario ? 




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## micromind

I've installed/troubleshot/maintained about 2 dozen lasers so far, most of them are 15 - 40KVA. I've simply connected every one of them to normal power, just like any other load.....never had a problem. 

I don't know why the fuses are listed as different ratings, maybe the engineer is an idiot.......

Unless this one is different than most others, I doubt if it needs anything special.


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## joebanana

If all else fails, read the instructions. Surely the documentation would address any warnings, and cautions. I would do a load check after installation to see if L3 is drawing more current, just for S's n G's.


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## frenchelectrican

WronGun said:


> Im planning out the install of a Trumatic 7000 with True Flow 4000 and Laser Process Cooler.
> 
> I’ve figured a connected load of 87KVA
> 
> A few things I need to consider and not to sure about.
> 
> 1. Impermissible Voltage fluctuations reducing performance. Should a voltage stabilizer or a regulated isolating transformer be considered?
> 
> I would not worry about it too much if you have very clean power supply source unless very specfially from the manufacter.,
> 
> 2. Fuse protection is listed as 125/125/160
> Why does the C-phase show as higher protection?
> (Conductors L1, L2, L3, PE)(THHN 2000Volt)
> 
> where did you find that info at? I hoping it is not a typo due 160 is not a super common item in usa side.
> 
> 3. Would a Residual Current Device be standard practice here ? If so, Again would an unregulated isolating transformer be used with an RCD in this scenario ?
> 
> RCD ? genrally not super common in USA at all and I dont think it justify the cost for RCD
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Ya runing at 480 volts ? if so which flavor you are running on this one Wye or Delta at that location?


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## WronGun

frenchelectrican said:


> Ya runing at 480 volts ? if so which flavor you are running on this one Wye or Delta at that location?




480 wye 


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## WronGun

micromind said:


> I've installed/troubleshot/maintained about 2 dozen lasers so far, most of them are 15 - 40KVA. I've simply connected every one of them to normal power, just like any other load.....never had a problem.
> 
> I don't know why the fuses are listed as different ratings, maybe the engineer is an idiot.......
> 
> Unless this one is different than most others, I doubt if it needs anything special.




This is from the spec sheet. I’m never surprised to see oddities in an industrial settings. I’m not very experienced in industrial by any means but I learn something on everything I do on these jobs. 

I’ve been working at this manufacturing plant for sometime now, but it’s always moving heavy automated machinery around. When we do this we are updating the electrical but basically copying the previous installation with some minor adjustments. This has taught me a few things without having to lose my mind and introduced me to this part of the trade. 

So now we are bringing in new machines and new loads. A little bit more homework to do now. 

Probably why they recently upped their insurance requirements for us. 

There are onsite engineers. I’m not sure how much Info or design they will offer, I also don’t want to seem incompetent. 


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## Weasel

The engineers are there for you. If you have a question ask and they will get you an answer. They have bosses to so they will do what it takes to assist you in the installation. Remember it’s there equipment and they have a timeline so they are at your mercy


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## gnuuser

WronGun said:


> 2. Fuse protection is listed as 125/125/160
> Why does the C-phase show as higher protection?
> (Conductors L1, L2, L3, PE)(THHN 2000Volt)
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



that sounds like a high leg delta!
and its been a long time for me on deltas systems!

Ive worked primarily wye systems at the factory.
check the specs and communicate with the engineers.
they should be able to help you clear that up


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## WronGun

gnuuser said:


> that sounds like a high leg delta!
> and its been a long time for me on deltas systems!
> 
> Ive worked primarily wye systems at the factory.
> check the specs and communicate with the engineers.
> they should be able to help you clear that up




It’s wye and wye is also required for this unit. 


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## WronGun

Ok I’ve spent some time online researching if there is a method for testing WYE power ? 

I know I can go back to the xformer, but Isn’t there a way to check by voltages at the panel ?


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## WronGun

https://www.belden.com/blog/data-centers/3-phase-power-wye-it-matters?hs_amp=true

This link seems to give me a very straight forward description. 


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## paulengr

WronGun said:


> Ok I’ve spent some time online researching if there is a method for testing WYE power ?
> 
> I know I can go back to the xformer, but Isn’t there a way to check by voltages at the panel ?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Phase to phase works regardless of the transformer for voltage. Phase to neutral or ground works on wye but not delta for obvious reasons. That’s for voltage. Current works the same everywhere. If you are wanting to measure power though you need the phase angle between them which unless you are good with an oscilloscope or something like that a watts transducer or a power meter is the practicsl way.


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## WronGun

Yes I was told a neutral is not needed but wye configuration is needed. Back to square 1. How can I figure out if this is wye or not?


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## splatz

WronGun said:


> https://www.belden.com/blog/data-centers/3-phase-power-wye-it-matters?hs_amp=true
> 
> This link seems to give me a very straight forward description.





WronGun said:


> Yes I was told a neutral is not needed but wye configuration is needed. Back to square 1. How can I figure out if this is wye or not?


I think what they are saying in the Belden paper is, you can supply a PDU for single phase line to line voltage loads with either delta or wye - you're only wiring in the three phases and have no line to neutral loads. (The PDUs are really just fancy plugmold.) 

With a 240V delta supply you'll get 240V single phase line to line out of the PDU. You won't use a neutral because there isn't one. 

With a 208V wye supply and a PDU wired delta, you'll get 208V single phase line to line at the PDU. That may be OK if you weren't counting on 240V when you bought that 240V PDU. You won't use the neutral because the PDU doesn't supply any phase to neutral loads. 

Or are you trying to figure out whether your supply is wye or delta?


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## WronGun

splatz said:


> I think what they are saying in the Belden paper is, you can supply a PDU for single phase line to line voltage loads with either delta or wye - you're only wiring in the three phases and have no line to neutral loads. (The PDUs are really just fancy plugmold.)
> 
> With a 240V delta supply you'll get 240V single phase line to line out of the PDU. You won't use a neutral because there isn't one.
> 
> With a 208V wye supply and a PDU wired delta, you'll get 208V single phase line to line at the PDU. That may be OK if you weren't counting on 240V when you bought that 240V PDU. You won't use the neutral because the PDU doesn't supply any phase to neutral loads.
> 
> Or are you trying to figure out whether your supply is wye or delta?




Yes , the laser we are installing needs wye 3-phase.

2 transformers we found are old and name plates are worn. I contacted utility and found out the main transformer is wye secondary. This building is massive I wish there was an easier way to know 100% the panel we are feeding from is wye. 


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## splatz

Not that this answers your question but it seems odd that it would specifically need 480V wye if it doesn't need a neutral. How does the equipment know? Does it bootleg something to the frame ground internally to get 277?  I'd also think that if the specs say it has to be wye, they mean grounded. I might ask the engineer in writing to clarify that, and make sure you get a response in writing. 

There must be no neutral in the panel, if there was you'd know it was wye because there was a neutral, and you'd have 277v phase to neutral, and you wouldn't have asked. If the neutral of the wye is grounded, but there's no neutral in the panel, you'll still see 277V line to ground at the panel. 

If it's ungrounded wye without a neutral, you don't have any way to check phase to neutral in the panel. I don't think you can tell ungrounded wye from ungrounded delta without a neutral!


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## WronGun

splatz said:


> Not that this answers your question but it seems odd that it would specifically need 480V wye if it doesn't need a neutral. How does the equipment know? Does it bootleg something to the frame ground internally to get 277?  I'd also think that if the specs say it has to be wye, they mean grounded. I might ask the engineer in writing to clarify that, and make sure you get a response in writing.
> 
> 
> 
> There must be no neutral in the panel, if there was you'd know it was wye because there was a neutral, and you'd have 277v phase to neutral, and you wouldn't have asked. If the neutral of the wye is grounded, but there's no neutral in the panel, you'll still see 277V line to ground at the panel.
> 
> 
> 
> If it's ungrounded wye without a neutral, you don't have any way to check phase to neutral in the panel. I don't think you can tell ungrounded wye from ungrounded delta without a neutral!




Delta causes the laser to run abnormally it also can damage the drive and processors. 

I’ve confirmed with Trumpf engineers a neutral
Is not required, just 480V Wye. 

The panel we are pulling from has no neutral and all lines test 277v to G, 480 line to line. 

We did confirm the main utility is wye secondary. We traced the utility transformer to the main 1600 Amp switchgear. 

Out of this switchgear we traced direct breaker feeds to an existing Trumpf Laser which is more good news. 

Out of this switchgear we have a 4’ section of 4” pipe that feeds another older GE 480V panel with a 200A Breaker that’s feeds the panel we are using. 

So far all is good , no transformers have been found in-between. Although , seeing as I’m about to power up a machine that costs north of 1/4 million I wanted some hard evidence specifically right from the panel we are feeding from. 

Another thing we found is this panel we are using was feeding another laser by a different manufacturer which we are replacing, this machine is now long gone and the area the size of a basketball court has now been cleared and epoxied for this new Trumpf monster. 

Engineers at this plant are more mechanical not so much electrical and are relying on me to figure out the correct power. 

Sure we can come from the main gear which is 600’-800’ away from this location but the correct thing would be to verify wye and use the panel which is about 150’ away. I just didn’t know verifying wye would be so stressful ! 

However , I think we are close to being sure at this point , just wish I had something more visual. 


Also, technically we could feed all the way to the machine using Delta and use a regulated isolation low impedance transformer at the location. They require under 2.5% impedance. 


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## splatz

WronGun said:


> The panel we are pulling from has no neutral and all lines test 277v to G, 480 line to line.


So mission accomplished, right? If it wasn't wye you wouldn't be seeing 277V.


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## paulengr

You cannot tell one ungrounded system from another as far as wye vs delta other than taking measurements of the transformer or checking the name plate or looking for an X0. Ungrounded systems aren’t totally ungrounded...they’re capacitively grounded but it takes very little to make the neutral drift so you may see roughly 277 to ground even if it’s not. The comment from Trimpf makes no sense except if they are grounded somewhere.


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## WronGun

splatz said:


> So mission accomplished, right? If it wasn't wye you wouldn't be seeing 277V.




Is this true though ? 


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## splatz

WronGun said:


> Is this true though?


Yes.


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## WronGun

splatz said:


> Yes.




So I’ve watched a dozen videos , I’ve read many articles, etc., etc. on the subject of identifying wye. Trying to learn more about 3-phase systems. A simple voltage test has never been mentioned.

Why wouldn’t you see 277/480 coming from a delta 3-phase?

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## splatz

?

There is no 277V present in the delta system. 

L1-L2 = L2-L3 = L3-L1 = 480V 

If it's corner grounded, you'll have L1-G = L2-G = 480V 
and you'll have L3-G= 0V 

No two points 277V apart. 

Now the 480/277 wye starts with the 277, each of the phases windings in the 480V wye are 277V, they are 120 degrees out of phase, so the line to line is 480V, I am sure you saw the vector drawings googling around. But the 277V is there before you even make the connections between the phases.


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## viriyo

Actually the main issue about industrial sector is pollution they are creating pollution in the environment and disturbing the health of peoples so i think this is totally wrong i only want to say that we should stop this.


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## sbrn33

A piece of equipment requiring 3 phase 3 wire does not know wye from delta.


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## HackWork

viriyo said:


> Actually the main issue about industrial sector is pollution they are creating pollution in the environment and disturbing the health of peoples so i think this is totally wrong i only want to say that we should stop this.


I say you should suck start a shotgun. 

You want to stop all of the "industrial sector"? And do what then, live in a tent?


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## Going_Commando

viriyo said:


> Actually the main issue about industrial sector is pollution they are creating pollution in the environment and disturbing the health of peoples so i think this is totally wrong i only want to say that we should stop this.


Lol. Go away.


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## JRaef

viriyo said:


> Actually the main issue about industrial sector is pollution they are creating pollution in the environment and disturbing the health of peoples so i think this is totally wrong i only want to say that we should stop this.


Reported...


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## Weasel

You will never see 277vac on a 3 phase 480 vac 3 phase delta transformer your secondary voltage will be 240/120 with a high leg that has to be marked orange and it is 180vac. The only thing a 3 phase 480 delta transformer is good for is 3 phase loads only


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## JRaef

splatz said:


> ?
> 
> There is no 277V present in the delta system.
> 
> L1-L2 = L2-L3 = L3-L1 = 480V
> 
> If it's corner grounded, you'll have L1-G = L2-G = 480V
> and you'll have L3-G= 0V
> 
> No two points 277V apart.
> 
> Now the 480/277 wye starts with the 277, each of the phases windings in the 480V wye are 277V, they are 120 degrees out of phase, so the line to line is 480V, I am sure you saw the vector drawings googling around. But the 277V is there before you even make the connections between the phases.


While EFFECTIVELY this may wring true most of the time, in reality there is NO ground reference on an ungrounded delta system, so what you measure on from phase to ground depends on _*capacitance *_to ground, which can vary greatly from site to site, even on the same system. Plus it can often be "fooled" by things like power electronics that have surge protection erroneously left in place that has a "wye" connection with an internal ground reference. So sometimes you WILL measure 277V or some other odd voltage from phase to ground on an ungrounded delta system, so it's just not reliable to do a voltage measurement only. *The BEST method is to find the main service transformer nameplate and read it.*

But if measuring the voltage your only recourse, then at least do this:
1) Measure phase to ground at your location. If it reads 480V or any other oddball voltage OTHER THAN 277V, *it IS delta* (if one phase reads zero V, it is a "corner grounded" delta, or that phase is accidentally grounded). If it DOES read 277V, then go to #2

2) Assuming there is another location on the same system, measure phase to ground again somewhere else and see if it reads EXACTLY the same as the first location. If you get something different by more than a volt or two, it MIGHT be delta. 

Unfortunately it might ALSO be a wye system where the neutral is accidentally floating, or it might be that there is a UPS or VFD with surge protection somewhere that has an internal ground connection, creating a "false wye" connection. In that case, that's a secondary issue in that the ground reference SHOULD have been removed at installation because the first time there is a real ground fault on that delta system, current will ATTEMPT to flow through those surge protection devices and vaporize them, usually causing collateral damage in the process.


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## MTW

My method for identifying voltages and connection method in a building - go outside and look at the poco transformer setup. When you're as awesome and talented as I am, it only takes a quick glance to figure it out.


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## Weasel

The only way you can get 480/277 on a delta transformer is to purchase a 3 phase 480vac delta primary and a 480/277 wye secondary and bond XO


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## Weasel

You are not that good MTW To be saying how awesome you are and how good you are is going to bite you in the ass one day


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## HackWork

*Weasel*



Weasel said:


> You are not that good MTW To be saying how awesome you are and how good you are is going to bite you in the ass one day


Agreed. He is not nearly as awesome as me and he should stop saying it.


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## MTW

Weasel said:


> You are not that good MTW To be saying how awesome you are and how good you are is going to bite you in the ass one day


So true Weasely....so true.


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## MTW

HackWork said:


> Agreed. He is not nearly as awesome as me and he should stop saying it.


I don't agree.


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## Weasel

When people have a to brag about how good they are because nobody else will. Don’t get to cocky nobody knows everything and when you think you do that’s when you mess up and get brought back down to earth


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## HackWork

*Weasel*



Weasel said:


> When people have a to brag about how good they are because nobody else will. Don’t get to cocky nobody knows everything and when you think you do that’s when you mess up and get brought back down to earth


But some people really are that good, and good looking.


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## MTW

Weasel said:


> When people have a to brag about how good they are because nobody else will. Don’t get to cocky nobody knows everything and when you think you do that’s when you mess up and get brought back down to earth



I see.


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## MTW

HackWork said:


> But some people really are that good, and good looking.


Like myself. :thumbup:


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## micromind

MTW said:


> My method for identifying voltages and connection method in a building - go outside and look at the poco transformer setup. When you're as awesome and talented as I am, it only takes a quick glance to figure it out.


Of course this works with pole-mount transformers but what about pad-mount?


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## micromind

Weasel said:


> The only way you can get 480/277 on a delta transformer is to purchase a 3 phase 480vac delta primary and a 480/277 wye secondary and bond XO


You can also install 3 relatively small single-phase transformers and connect them zig-zag to create a neutral from an ungrounded 3Ø ∆ system.


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## MTW

micromind said:


> Of course this works with pole-mount transformers but what about pad-mount?


Read the label on it. 

I've never seen a paramount for anything but the smallest industrial building around here, and those are always 480 volt wye since delta is no longer offered by our poco here. Those older industrial services are far too large to meet poco specs for paramount. Usually they receive primary voltage and have their own transformers, or the poco has some huge 100 kva or bigger ones sitting on the ground.


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## 460 Delta

MTW said:


> Like myself. :thumbup:


I don’t see.


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## MTW

460 Delta said:


> I don’t see.


:nerd::furious:


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## 460 Delta

MTW said:


> :nerd::furious:


I do see.


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## micromind

MTW said:


> Read the label on it.
> 
> I've never seen a paramount for anything but the smallest industrial building around here, and those are always 480 volt wye since delta is no longer offered by our poco here. Those older industrial services are far too large to meet poco specs for paramount. Usually they receive primary voltage and have their own transformers, or the poco has some huge 100 kva or bigger ones sitting on the ground.


Around here, the PUCO pad mounts don't have any labeling on the outside, only the factory nameplate inside the door. 

Also, they're trying to get everything underground, they won't do anything overhead in Reno, only the outlying areas. And reluctantly at that. 

Idiotic as it may seem the smallest 3Ø pad mount they have these days is 150 KVA. 

They'll still hook up a 4 wire high-leg ∆ in the outlying areas but if anything goes bad on an existing ∆ bank in Reno, it gets replaced with a grounded Y.


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## splatz

JRaef said:


> While EFFECTIVELY this may wring true most of the time, in reality there is NO ground reference on an ungrounded delta system, so what you measure on from phase to ground depends on _*capacitance *_to ground, which can vary greatly from site to site, even on the same system. Plus it can often be "fooled" by things like power electronics that have surge protection erroneously left in place that has a "wye" connection with an internal ground reference. So sometimes you WILL measure 277V or some other odd voltage from phase to ground on an ungrounded delta system, so it's just not reliable to do a voltage measurement only.


I was thinking about this. If you tested phase to ground on a delta system with a low-Z meter / solenoid tester, would that eliminate the capacitive ground readings, readings through MOVs, etc.?


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