# Non-member wearing shirts



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I will usually punch them in the gulliver and then ask them if they are ready for a bit of the old ultraviolence.


----------



## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

I don't know why anyone who wasn't union would want to wear a union tshirt, unless maybe they just tacitly support unions (?)




HackWork said:


> I will usually punch them in the gulliver and then ask them if they are ready for a bit of the old ultraviolence.


-- that works great for target practice. not so sure how well it works if the targets punch back.


----------



## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

Organize them.


----------



## Signal1 (Feb 10, 2016)

Would it be inappropriate for a family member?


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

You know what is really odd, seeing someone walking down the street wearing a sports team t-shirt when they clearly aren't on that team. Damn weirdos.


----------



## BrettC (Apr 10, 2016)

TGGT said:


> Organize them.


By...height?

I will admit that owning a Local 666 shirt sounds cool as hell.


----------



## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

metsen duts said:


> Just wondering how tall feel about non brothers or sisters wearing ibew local shirts. I'm from l.u 666 Richmond VA people either think that it's bs as in fake or want one. Thoughts any one?


You have to expect that the shirts local 666 produces would be a bit interesting to a particular market.
I don't see any malicious or disrespect intent unless the wearer was representing the self as a member trying to scab off of the sacrifices made by our brothers and sisters in Richmond.


----------



## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

HackWork said:


> You know what is really odd, seeing someone walking down the street wearing a sports team t-shirt when they clearly aren't on that team. Damn weirdos.


They make a royalty off of those official shirts. Get em while they are hot!


----------



## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

Signal1 said:


> Would it be inappropriate for a family member?


I have given my brother in law hooded sweatshirts in the past. He is a longshoreman/diesel mechanic in Staten Island. You know he has never returned the favor. It's that time of year where I wear a weeks worth of clothes in a day. An extra sweatshirt would be nice.


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Having been involved in Unions from a young age and having lived in NJ for a long while, if I encounter someone in a Union local garment I ask if they are a member. If they say no then I tell them they need to pay the normal wage percentage of I may have to turn them into the collection agency. But for 50% of the usual fee i'll let them go for now.


----------



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

I have IBEW coats from when I was a member. Is wearing them the same as this?


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

I wear my pink union tank top all the time.


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

backstay said:


> I have IBEW coats from when I was a member. Is wearing them the same as this?


Nope, you earned it.

I have various shirts, hoodies, jackets, and clothes from every place I've worked. The only person that tells me it's lame to wear them is the wife.


----------



## Dan the electricman (Jan 2, 2011)

sbrn33 said:


> I wear my pink union tank top all the time.


Good for you, Susie! Be proud! :thumbsup:


----------



## rankin (Apr 14, 2015)

Is it any worse than a guy wearing shirts and hats from the same contractor out in public, when he doesn't even work for that contractor anymore?


----------



## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

Maybe the non-IBEW person wearing the IBEW apparel is showing support for the local as they can not join the IBEW. 
Yes I am union but not IBEW as it would be a conflict ....................


----------



## active1 (Dec 29, 2009)

Had other trades ask me if I could get them a shirt.
Told them to go to our hall and ask themself.


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

On a scale of 1-10, with all that is going on in the country it rates a NOTHING.


----------



## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

How do you feel about folks wearing union suits?


----------



## PlugsAndLights (Jan 19, 2016)

Silly tribalism. 
P&L


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

sbrn33 said:


> I wear my pink union tank top all the time.


International Association of Ladies Garment Workers?


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

manchestersparky said:


> Maybe the non-IBEW person wearing the IBEW apparel is showing support for the local as they can not join the IBEW.
> Yes I am union but not IBEW as it would be a conflict ....................


Operating engineers?


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

drsparky said:


> How do you feel about folks wearing union suits?


Looks strange with the 'mickey mouse' boots!


----------



## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

I was at the Coconut Grove Art fest yesterday and saw a Richmond, Va shirt. Made me think about this thread.


----------



## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

metsen duts said:


> Just wondering how tall feel about non brothers or sisters wearing ibew local shirts. I'm from l.u 666 Richmond VA people either think that it's bs as in fake or want one. Thoughts any one?


I will trade you one for one of mine? Local 586. :thumbsup:


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Suncoast Power said:


> I was at the Coconut Grove Art fest yesterday and saw a Richmond, Va shirt. Made me think about this thread.


Damn, a whole art festival and one attendee with class!


----------



## active1 (Dec 29, 2009)

Union shirts are not IDs but when security is lax it can get you in a lot of facilities.

No different than company shirts.
Some companies are required by the customer to have workers wear company shirts so they can be identified. Giving out the same shirts risks a person that's not an employee misrepresenting the company at the least. And gives an opportunity for theft.

When a person is seen doing something wrong, it's always we seen a guy with one if your shirts on doing this. Last week it was 2 guys driving an electric cart down Las Vegas Blvd to lunch. But they had Teamster shirts on, so it was all good for us.

I know of a time when disgruntled employees gave their old work cloths to pan handlers / homeless that were always outside the hotel casino they worked at.


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

active1 said:


> Union shirts are not IDs but when security is lax it can get you in a lot of facilities.
> 
> No different than company shirts.
> Some companies are required by the customer to have workers wear company shirts so they can be identified. Giving out the same shirts risks a person that's not an employee misrepresenting the company at the least. And gives an opportunity for theft.
> ...



I can see the humor in that!:thumbsup:


----------



## Jhellwig (Jun 18, 2014)

So now you have to pay dues to wear a freaking shirt? And people wonder why unions get a bad name....


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Jhellwig said:


> So now you have to pay dues to wear a freaking shirt? And people wonder why unions get a bad name....



Collective bargaining!

High hourly pay!

Overtime pay after regular hours!

Good paid medical benefits!

Paid days off!

Vacation pay!

Retirement!

No job hunting needed!


*Yeah Unions totally suck.*


----------



## Jhellwig (Jun 18, 2014)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Collective bargaining!
> 
> High hourly pay!
> 
> ...



You missed my point. Bitching about a non union person wearing a union shirt is the dumbest ****ing thing to worry about.


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Jhellwig said:


> You missed my point. *Bitching about a non union person wearing a union shirt is the dumbest ****ing thing to worry about.*


Yeah I missed it!

Agreed!


----------



## Byte (Oct 3, 2016)

metsen duts said:


> Just wondering how tall feel about non brothers or sisters wearing ibew local shirts. I'm from l.u 666 Richmond VA people either think that it's bs as in fake or want one. Thoughts any one?


Why would anyone care?


----------



## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

I have both an Army and USMC shirt, never served in either. I'm not a man prone to violence, but if anything could flip my switch, it's stupidity. And the stupidity of confronting someone about a shirt, like a gang member in colors, might set me into a rage.


----------



## Byte (Oct 3, 2016)

RePhase277 said:


> I have both an Army and USMC shirt, never served in either. I'm not a man prone to violence, but if anything could flip my switch, it's stupidity. And the stupidity of confronting someone about a shirt, like a gang member in colors, might set me into a rage.


Good point. Why go looking for confrontation? Handguns are legal in USA


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

RePhase277 said:


> I have both an Army and USMC shirt, never served in either. I'm not a man prone to violence, but if anything could flip my switch, it's stupidity. And the stupidity of confronting someone about a shirt, like a gang member in colors, might set me into a rage.


I'm not big on pack mentality in humans either. I fully understand it in animals.


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Byte said:


> Good point. Why go looking for confrontation? Handguns are legal in USA


We train our young to fight from an early age, it isn't handguns that one needs to be aware of, it's 4' Italian girls from NJ or NY that will level you!


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Collective bargaining!
> 
> High hourly pay!
> 
> ...


You forgot about getting laid off for years at a time and collecting employment.


----------



## Asaddc (Feb 13, 2017)

A shirt's a shirt to me, if anything it's free publicity for the union, it may just be helping the IBEW by advertising.


----------



## LuckyLuke (Jun 1, 2015)

At least it's still better then some marshmallow of a man wearing a UFC shirt


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

sbrn33 said:


> You forgot about getting laid off for years at a time and collecting employment.


 I have asked this question on this forum for seven or eight years now. Can anyone show any real conclusive evidence saying that union workers are out of work anymore than nonunion workers? 

During the worst time My hall ever had, when some guys were out of work for two years, the out of work list was only 600 men long. There's 4000 men in my local and all of the rest of us were working full-time plus overtime. I never missed more than two weeks of work in 15 years.


----------



## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

HackWork said:


> I have asked this question on this forum for seven or eight years now. Can anyone show any real conclusive evidence saying that union workers are out of work anymore than nonunion workers?
> 
> During the worst time My hall ever had, when some guys were out of work for two years, the out of work list was only 600 men long. There's 4000 men in my local and all of the rest of us were working full-time plus overtime. I never missed more than two weeks of work in 15 years.


That may vary by region and change with time.

50 years ago the industrialized north would be hit hardest by recession.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MikeFL said:


> That may vary by region and change with time.
> 
> 50 years ago the industrialized north would be hit hardest by recession.


I am only talking about the union vs. non-union aspect. Some guys, like Sabrina, continually say how union workers spend half of their careers on the bench. I would like to see some evidence saying that they are unemployed more than non-union guys.


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

sbrn33 said:


> You forgot about getting laid off for years at a time and collecting employment.


Oddly enough the only time I was ever laid off was when I put a second story on my house. 

And you may count when I had a dispute with a contractor and walked out and he said I was laid off. That was during summer time which is great for wreck diving and didn't last anywhere near long enough. 

When contractors know who you are they head hunt you in the markets I've worked in.


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

HackWork said:


> I have asked this question on this forum for seven or eight years now. Can anyone show any real conclusive evidence saying that union workers are out of work anymore than nonunion workers?
> 
> During the worst time My hall ever had, when some guys were out of work for two years, the out of work list was only 600 men long. There's 4000 men in my local and all of the rest of us were working full-time plus overtime. I never missed more than two weeks of work in 15 years.


Funny how it works out for guys that are diverse in their skill set and can do more than one type task or job. Service related skills can keep a guy employed with pay over scale and normally more benefits as well. 

There were times I'd have loved a lay off to get in some hunting or diving down in the Caymans.


----------



## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

HackWork said:


> I am only talking about the union vs. non-union aspect. Some guys, like Sabrina, continually say how union workers spend half of their careers on the bench. I would like to see some evidence saying that they are unemployed more than non-union guys.


I've only heard the opposite that union guys enjoy the rarity when they get laid off for a week. It's like a vacation and it doesn't come often. All they have to do is show their face at the union hall once per week and they're good to go. Of course this was 40 years ago up north. I'm sure today they check in electronically.


----------



## DesignerMan (Jun 13, 2008)

BrettC said:


> I will admit that owning a Local 666 shirt sounds cool as hell.


Local 777 has better long term benefits! :icon_wink:


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Asaddc said:


> A shirt's a shirt to me, if anything it's free publicity for the union, it may just be helping the IBEW by advertising.


Or not. On more than one occasion, I had to get out of my seat on the train and tell some loud IBEW member to STFU or take off the identifying shirt. At the picket lines, I always show up in plain clothes. But that's because I'm a bad boy.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

HackWork said:


> I have asked this question on this forum for seven or eight years now. Can anyone show any real conclusive evidence saying that union workers are out of work anymore than nonunion workers?
> 
> During the worst time My hall ever had, when some guys were out of work for two years, the out of work list was only 600 men long. There's 4000 men in my local and all of the rest of us were working full-time plus overtime. I never missed more than two weeks of work in 15 years.


The problem with comparing out of work union members with non union is that a union has facts and figures such as you've posted which are accurate and quantifiable. 

There is no "organization" that represents the non union sector reporting how many participants, how many laid off, how many are waiting for work, etc.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

HackWork said:


> I am only talking about the union vs. non-union aspect. Some guys, like Sabrina, continually say how union workers spend half of their careers on the bench. I would like to see some evidence saying that they are unemployed more than non-union guys.


There are locals located in "the boonies" where unemployment is more common than employment. Right here on Long Island local 25 isn't doing too well. For a period in the 90's my local (3) took in travelers, one of whom who was about 45 years old told me that since he got his JW card he has NEVER worked in his own jurisdiction.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> There are locals located in "the boonies" where unemployment is more common than employment. Right here on Long Island local 25 isn't doing too well. For a period in the 90's my local (3) took in travelers, one of whom who was about 45 years old told me that since he got his JW card he has NEVER worked in his own jurisdiction.


That's understandable, but the same would go for non-union electrician in that area.


----------



## splatz (May 23, 2015)

HackWork said:


> That's understandable, but the same would go for non-union electrician in that area.


No, that isn't true. In a lot of those areas, where the local economy isn't as flush, there are fewer of the jobs that typically go to the union - government jobs, large corporations, large projects. 

Where there's a large discrepancy in labor rates between union and non union (i.e., most places) it's hard for the union shops to be competitive with non union on most types of work. 

Big jobs, the unions shops have the advantage with the flexible labor pool they can draw from. There are few large non-union shops to bid against. 

Public works / Davis Bacon jobs, the law evens the playing field between union and non union. 

BTW, the boonies referred to - that's most of the country, you could use some recent election maps to identify the boonies where us deplorables are fighting for the scraps


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

HackWork said:


> I am only talking about the union vs. non-union aspect. Some guys, like Sabrina, continually say how union workers spend half of their careers on the bench. I would like to see some evidence saying that they are unemployed more than non-union guys.


I knew you would like that. I have never laid anyone off as long as I have been in business. I would have them clean the shop for quite awhile first. 
My Bro in law works in the Omaha union. Drives a minimum of 60 miles each way to work. He maybe works 6 months a year if that.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

splatz said:


> No, that isn't true. In a lot of those areas, where the local economy isn't as flush, there are fewer of the jobs that typically go to the union - government jobs, large corporations, large projects.


 I am not talking about union marketshare.



> Where there's a large discrepancy in labor rates between union and non union (i.e., most places) it's hard for the union shops to be competitive with non union on most types of work.


 And in those areas the unions are small and have very few members.



> Big jobs, the unions shops have the advantage with the flexible labor pool they can draw from. There are few large non-union shops to bid against.
> 
> Public works / Davis Bacon jobs, the law evens the playing field between union and non union.
> 
> BTW, the boonies referred to - that's most of the country, you could use some recent election maps to identify the boonies where us deplorables are fighting for the scraps


Again, this isn't about union vs. non-union.

Please go back and read what I said. I am asking for any evidence that the average union electrician is out of work more than non-union electrician. This is based off of people here saying how union members sit on the bench for half of their career while acting like non-union electrician are always fully employed.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

sbrn33 said:


> I knew you would like that. I have never laid anyone off as long as I have been in business. I would have them clean the shop for quite awhile first.
> My Bro in law works in the Omaha union. Drives a minimum of 60 miles each way to work. He maybe works 6 months a year if that.


That's not evidence. 

I could say how I have 3-4 non-union electrician calling me per week looking for work while every union member in my hall is working (they are, it's a walk-thru). That still doesn't mean anything on such a small scale.


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Dude, Non union contractors are way more loyal than union. You know that, I know that, everyone in the world knows that. 
I am not saying that union is not the better way to go. The pay is way better in the union but if you want a job you love and want to go to work at NU is the way to go. 
So my BIL uses his own vehicle plus gas and wear and tear to go to his "big" job everyday. Never mind the extra 2.5 hours on the road. 
This is a guy that I would let work on his own.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

sbrn33 said:


> Dude, Non union contractors are way more loyal than union. You know that, I know that, everyone in the world knows that.
> I am not saying that union is not the better way to go. The pay is way better in the union but if you want a job you love and want to go to work at NU is the way to go.
> So my BIL uses his own vehicle plus gas and wear and tear to go to his "big" job everyday. Never mind the extra 2.5 hours on the road.
> This is a guy that I would let work on his own.


I really don't care about any of this.

I am asking for evidence that union electrician are out of work more than non-union electrician. 

You complaining about your union brother in law and his working conditions isn't getting us anywhere.


----------



## splatz (May 23, 2015)

HackWork said:


> Please go back and read what I said. I am asking for any evidence that the average union electrician is out of work more than non-union electrician. This is based off of people here saying how union members sit on the bench for half of their career while acting like non-union electrician are always fully employed.


I can't point to any department of labor statistics or anything like that, if that's what you're after. I can just tell you this is not something anyone argues about out here in the boonies. The union is kind of a liquid labor pool. That means there are going to be people sitting home at times. The non union shops work more steadily at smaller jobs and need the liquidity less, it's more constant.


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

splatz said:


> I can't point to any department of labor statistics or anything like that, if that's what you're after. I can just tell you this is not something anyone argues about out here in the boonies. The union is kind of a liquid labor pool. That means there are going to be people sitting home at times. The non union shops work more steadily at smaller jobs and need the liquidity less, it's more constant.


Good job. Now you have done it.


----------



## splatz (May 23, 2015)

sbrn33 said:


> Good job. Now you have done it.


What, don't be scared.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

splatz said:


> I can't point to any department of labor statistics or anything like that, if that's what you're after. I can just tell you this is not something anyone argues about out here in the boonies. The union is kind of a liquid labor pool. That means there are going to be people sitting home at times.


 Agreed. But there are also many non-union electrician out of work.



> The non union shops work more steadily at smaller jobs and need the liquidity less, it's more constant.


I also agree with this. But again, there are many non-union electrician who are out of work. 

I understand what you are saying about many union men often being hired out of a hall as temporary labor, I come from a union family and have 20 years in as a member (15 active) so I understand it first hand. But I still don't know where people get the idea that union members are unemployed more than non-union members.


----------



## Byte (Oct 3, 2016)

Let me raise a few eyebrows. It seems that if you work for a union you have an inside track to easy street. I was in a union and when a strike happened, I saw what was going on...there were threats to scabs and violence (yes in Canada). From that day on I am not involved with any union. They had their day when they were necessary; however, that day has passed.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I may not be explaining myself very well. 

Think about this, how many hours is the average non-union electrician working vs. the average union electrician?

And you can't just do what Sabrina is doing and say "union guys always get laid off but my guys work full years". You have to count *all* of the electrician who are out of work.

And another thing that may be skewing what people think is this: A union electrician is counted as a union electrician even when he is unemployed from the union job and doing other work. Adversely, a non-union electrician who is unemployed from electrical work and doing other work is generally no longer counted as an electrician.


----------



## Byte (Oct 3, 2016)

HackWork said:


> I may not be explaining myself very well.
> 
> Think about this, how many hours is the average non-union electrician working vs. the average union electrician?
> 
> ...


You cannot be serious. A non-union electrician and a union electrician are both out of work and we call them unemployed.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Byte said:


> You cannot be serious. A non-union electrician and a union electrician are both out of work and we call them unemployed.


 Read.
Comprehend.
Then post.

When a non-union "electrician" is out of work and is working as a carpenter for the last year, he is not an unemployed electrician, he is an employed carpenter.

When a union electrician is out of work and is working as a carpenter for the last year, he is still counted as a union electrician as long as he is on the list.


----------



## Byte (Oct 3, 2016)

HackWork said:


> Read.
> Comprehend.
> Then post.
> 
> ...


we are both allowed our opinion. It is our obligation to be professional and from this point forward I hope we both will. Have a great night.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Byte said:


> we are both allowed our opinion. It is our obligation to be professional and from this point forward I hope we both will. Have a great night.


Stop posting stupid sh1t and everything will be fine.


----------



## Byte (Oct 3, 2016)

F off


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Byte said:


> F off


Exactly.


----------



## splatz (May 23, 2015)

HackWork said:


> Agreed. But there are also many non-union electrician out of work.


Again this is just based on my own backyard but there are far fewer non union laid off, especially for long periods. Union guys go more feast / famine. A big job spins up, there's full employment, and at certain parts of the job, especially close to the finish line, there's all kinds of overtime. Then when the big job or jobs complete, there's a huge glut of labor. A lot of guys do side work, plow snow, and collect. If the economy is bad, it can go LONG. 

I think you might not see it in the NYC / NJ metro area because travelers come in from the boonies when things are busy but the local guys keep working even when it's relatively slow. Because your local economy is so flush with such a large population, it's never DEAD. Out in the boonies when it's slow it's DEAD. 

Now in the non union shops there is less feast less famine. The same thing that makes the small contractor unable to swing at the huge jobs, makes him able to stretch the available work to last the whole year without laying anyone off. In the boonies, the ratio of new construction to renovations, additions and service is lower. This makes a steadier stream of work. It's always busier in the summer but as I always say, THANK GOD things keep breaking year round even when the economy sucks. 

The small shops don't want to lose people when they get slow so actual layoffs happen less - and because they pay less they can afford to keep guys on. A lot of contractors will save inside work for established customers that aren't going anywhere for the winter when there's less new construction. If you want to upgrade your warehouse to LEDs you'll get a lot better price in December than June. It's just supply and demand. 

We out here in the boonies see a little more of what's going on in the metro markets because there are always people weighing the commute versus the extra money to be made. Nobody in NYC/NNJ or San Fran or etc. is really thinking about driving to east bumble**** to see what the market there will bear.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

splatz said:


> Again this is just based on my own backyard but there are far fewer non union laid off, especially for long periods.


 How do you know that? For all you know there might be 50,000 non-union electrician in your area that haven't been able to find a job for years. 




> Union guys go more feast / famine. A big job spins up, there's full employment, and at certain parts of the job, especially close to the finish line, there's all kinds of overtime. Then when the big job or jobs complete, there's a huge glut of labor. A lot of guys do side work, plow snow, and collect. If the economy is bad, it can go LONG.


 I know how the system works. But the big difference is that unions limit their membership to marketshare. So in your "boonies" area there might be 1,500 union electrician across the entire area, and they may work 60% of the year so it looks like they aren't employed that well compared to the guys you employ for the full year. But have you taken into account that fact that their might be thousands of non-union electrician out of work in that same area, bringing the average way down?



> Now in the non union shops there is less feast less famine.


 You are only looking at the feast or famine thing, but you have to realize that the union is a much smaller and limited group. 

A small group of union guys feasting and famining might still be far more employed than a very large group of non-union electrician in which some work fulltime and some have been unemployed for long periods of time.

Also, even here in NJ you will find plenty of non-union electrician looking for work, people who find short term jobs who are feasting and famining. It happens all over to union and non-union.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

splatz said:


> Again this is just based on my own backyard but there are far fewer non union laid off, especially for long periods.


 How do you know that? For all you know there might be 50,000 non-union electrician in your area that haven't been able to find a job for years. 




> Union guys go more feast / famine. A big job spins up, there's full employment, and at certain parts of the job, especially close to the finish line, there's all kinds of overtime. Then when the big job or jobs complete, there's a huge glut of labor. A lot of guys do side work, plow snow, and collect. If the economy is bad, it can go LONG.


 I know how the system works. But the big difference is that unions limit their membership to marketshare. So in your "boonies" area there might be 1,500 union electrician across the entire area, and they may work 60% of the year so it looks like they aren't employed that well compared to the guys you employ for the full year. But have you taken into account that fact that their might be thousands of non-union electrician out of work in that same area, bringing the average way down? That's the point, we don't know that.



> Now in the non union shops there is less feast less famine.


 You are only looking at the feast or famine thing, but you have to realize that the union is a much smaller and limited group. 

A small group of union guys feasting and famining might still be far more employed than a very large group of non-union electrician in which some work fulltime and some have been unemployed for long periods of time.

Also, even here in NJ you will find plenty of non-union electrician looking for work, people who find short term jobs who are feasting and famining. It happens all over to union and non-union.


----------



## splatz (May 23, 2015)

HackWork said:


> How do you know that? For all you know there might be 50,000 non-union electrician in your area that haven't been able to find a job for years.


Dude. There are not 250,000 people in my area, so I am 100% sure about that. 

Like I said, I don't have department of labor statistics, but I have been here for decades. Everyone knows everyone's business, if you accidentally fart in front of a customer you will get your balls busted about it later at the supply house. Most contractors knows who's busy, who's slow, who's dormant, who's not paid a bill in six months, who's going to be selling off the equipment unless something good happens.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

splatz said:


> Dude. There are not 250,000 people in my area, so I am 100% sure about that.


 The number was meant to be a thrown out random number and you know that.

But the truth is that you are not 100% sure that "_there are far fewer non union laid off, especially for long periods_." You have no proof or evidence of that, only an assumption. You are literally just saying what you think as fact, when I am simply asking for any type of evidence.



> Like I said, I don't have department of labor statistics, but I have been here for decades. Everyone knows everyone's business, if you accidentally fart in front of a customer you will get your balls busted about it later at the supply house. Most contractors knows who's busy, who's slow, who's dormant, who's not paid a bill in six months, who's going to be selling off the equipment unless something good happens.


 And none of this means anything to this discussion. 

Even if you did know exactly how many out of work non-union electrician there were in your area, which you don't, that would still be meaningless because your area is a tiny, inconsequential aspect when speaking about the average across the country.

It seems like you are comparing only the employed non-union electrician to all union electrician (whether they are employed or not), which is of course going to make the employment in the union look much worse. But you have to take into account all of the unemployed non-union electrician, some of which may be employed in other jobs (just like union guys when out of work) so it seems like they aren't electrician anymore and you're not counting them.


----------



## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

HackWork said:


> Read.
> Comprehend.
> Then post.
> 
> ...


So it's possible that my local plumber may actually be a union electrician? That's a little scarey, isn't it? Very little union in my area so if I were to wear that type of clothing, they'd probably think I was from the big city or, worse yet, Minnesota!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk


----------



## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Well listen if you're only willing to accept a count from the department of labor or something, I understand that, I am just trying to explain that what I can see with my own eyes over decades is pretty reliable. And it agrees with what most other electricians and contractors would have to say. It's a pretty significant sample of the population, it isn't certainty, but I am confident it's a pretty reliable predictor. 

BTW, this is for construction and service electricians, not for plant maintenance, government, utility, etc. - those guys don't spend much time off around here.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

splatz said:


> Well listen if you're only willing to accept a count from the department of labor or something, I understand that, I am just trying to explain that what I can see with my own eyes over decades is pretty reliable.


 I don't agree with that at all. You had no idea that the guy you walked past stocking the shelves in the supermarket was a trained electrician looking for work. When you see a carpender frame a house, you don't know that he is really an electrician who is doing carpentry in order to feed his kids while looking for an electrical job. 

You really don't know how many non-union electrician there are out there that are unemployed from electrical work.


----------



## splatz (May 23, 2015)

HackWork said:


> I don't agree with that at all. You had no idea that the guy you walked past stocking the shelves in the supermarket was a trained electrician looking for work.


You understand, I am not talking about looking around the grocery store and imagining who's a laid off electrician from their shirt. I am talking about I know a lot of electricians and their employers, both union and non union, well enough to know to some extent who's laying off, who's laid off, who never lays anybody off, who's worried how long they'll be laid off, etc. I talk to the people that sell them materials, sell them trucks, sell them insurance, do their taxes, ask for their votes, etc. etc. So I have a pretty good idea of what goes on in the pond I swim in.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

splatz said:


> You understand, I am not talking about looking around the grocery store and imagining who's a laid off electrician from their shirt. I am talking about I know a lot of electricians and their employers, both union and non union, well enough to know to some extent who's laying off, who's laid off, who never lays anybody off, who's worried how long they'll be laid off, etc. I talk to the people that sell them materials, sell them trucks, sell them insurance, do their taxes, ask for their votes, etc. etc. So I have a pretty good idea of what goes on in the pond I swim in.


I have to respectfully disagree, there is no way you can know how many non-union electrician are unemployed. The few people you talk to doesn't change that. I'm not saying that you are wrong, you very well may be right. I am just saying that no one can go off of the gossip you have heard from a handful of people, not when there are other important variables.

Union electrician may very well be unemployed more than non-union electrician, I do not know and I would be interested in seeing something conclusive. If I had to put money on it I would probably say that they were. But the mental gymnastics that people like Sabrina do, using their own 4 employees compared to a brother in law in the union, is what makes me want to bash his head in with locomotive equipment.

If someone is going to state something as such an unequivocal fact, then I am going to ask for some type of data to back it up.


----------



## splitphase (Jan 8, 2009)

I have not worn a hat or a shirt or anything else in over a decade supporting my local because its a total joke. The union that can never put me to work gets no support.


----------



## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Byte said:


> Let me raise a few eyebrows. It seems that if you work for a union you have an inside track to easy street. I was in a union and when a strike happened, I saw what was going on...there were threats to scabs and violence (yes in Canada). From that day on I am not involved with any union. They had their day when they were necessary; however, that day has passed.


Union rates are what keep non union rates high.

You really think that if the unions were gone the non union rates would stay the same? 

Come on, stop trolling with these comments


----------

