# Surveillance without internet



## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

What are you guys installing for surveillance systems without a network? 

DVR with Analog Cameras ? 

I did a few of these years ago but we always integrated network. 

Ever since its been servers/POE/switches which I don’t believe will work off the grid. 


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## Forge Boyz (Nov 7, 2014)

I dont know much about security camera systems but POE cameras can work without internet. I installed a system in a sawmill that was just the NVR, monitor and 3 cameras so that the sawyer could watch what was happening. All the cameras simply had a Cat6 run back the the NVR. It is not networked but could be by running an Ethernet cable to the NVR.

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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

Forge Boyz said:


> I dont know much about security camera systems but POE cameras can work without internet. I installed a system in a sawmill that was just the NVR, monitor and 3 cameras so that the sawyer could watch what was happening. All the cameras simply had a Cat6 run back the the NVR. It is not networked but could be by running an Ethernet cable to the NVR.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


I’ve had issues without network on a few Flir systems I’ve done. NVR software wasn’t automatically picking up IP addresses. A lot of manual programming had to be done so we programmed the entire system at the shop while connected so all the camera IP addresses would register automatically. 


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## Forge Boyz (Nov 7, 2014)

WronGun said:


> I’ve had issues without network on a few Flir systems I’ve done. NVR software wasn’t automatically picking up IP addresses. A lot of manual programming had to be done so we programmed the entire system at the shop while connected so all the camera IP addresses would register automatically.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I did not do any of the programming. My brother works for an IT company and we bought the system from them and put it in for one of our customers. The system was already set up and programmed when I got it, so for me it was plug and play.

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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

With networked systems there are three services to be aware of.

The first is DHCP and the related Bonjour protocol. When the internet first got started we would program the IP address of each device, the mask, the gateway, and later the DNS server by hand. Today we usually do this automatically. When a machine first boots up it broadcasts a generic “who am I?” message and the local DHCP server passes out an address from a pool. This is not an internet function. It’s just a local router or switch or even a server PC doing it. This is OK for user PCs and cameras but servers (routers, NVR or DVR) need fixed IP addresses or at least they used to. A related system called UPNP works in conjunction with DNS to register local services like printers or say the family TV or sound bar so that they can be found by other devices.

Bonjour sounds like what you really want but trust me, it just causes confusion. If you ever see a device with a strange IP like 169.x.x.x and it won’t connect to anything that’s Bonjour. The idea is that devices can set up IP addresses autonomously without DHCP which usually ends on failure. Think about it...how are two devices who don’t know who they are ever supposed to talk?

Now the next issue solves the modern day problem that NOBODY memorizes phone numbers anymore. You don’t have to...you just look it up in your phone directory. DNS works the same way. Everyone just types in google.com instead of the actual address for google such as 4.4.4.4 (this actually works). Again it’s something on your router but your router just handles local names you create (if any). If there are none it passes everything up to the internet servers that do DNS.

UPNP as mentioned also ties into DNS but unlike regular DNS it works strictly locally.

So in terms of “just working” a camera may look to an external server for licensing or some proprietary routing and this is going to break and nothing you can do about it. Or it might be trying to use DHCP or DNS. So you need some device to provide these services, or manually set up everything.

AND it needs to be reliable. I just went through an issue at the house where the phone company replaced their modem. DHCP crashed every couple days and it took time to figure it out. I really couldn’t eliminate it so I set up DHCP on another router. But the double NAT caused issues so I moved it to a NAS (Linux server) and now things are nice and stable. A lot of cheap hardware has garbage DHCP and DNS. Auto configuration “just works” out of the box when it works, but is more complicated and prone to failure. Programming every device manually is painful but network problems are much less common.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

There are still analog cameras and NVRs availalbe if you don't want to monkey around with the network. Setting static addresses on the cameras only takes a few minutes per camera but that's if you know what to set. Knowing what to set may or may not be something you want to figure out.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

...


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## Kevin (Feb 14, 2017)

An NVR with IP cameras should work right out of the box with no internet. However, you may have to set up a static IP address on each camera and the NVR. If the NVR has a built in PoE switch, it should automatically do lots of magic, including setting up the IP address of each camera to the IP address it wants them set to (if they're from the same manufacturer)

A good way to do this might be to program them all at your home/shop/office where you have internet available to do this. Internet shouldn't be required though...

Or analog, but analog is outdated tech.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

Kevin_Essiambre said:


> An NVR with IP cameras should work right out of the box with no internet. However, you may have to set up a static IP address on each camera and the NVR. If the NVR has a built in PoE switch, it should automatically do lots of magic, including setting up the IP address of each camera to the IP address it wants them set to (if they're from the same manufacturer)
> 
> A good way to do this might be to program them all at your home/shop/office where you have internet available to do this. Internet shouldn't be required though...
> 
> Or analog, but analog is outdated tech.


This is what I’ll do, just set things up at shop...


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## AsGreenAsGrass (Nov 26, 2020)

WronGun said:


> This is what I’ll do, just set things up at shop...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


This might be unrelated to the topic but for anything IP related I use BOOTP/DHCP tool to add an IP and to disable the DHCP so you dont lose it on shutdown. Be nice to verify that you're not going to lose all their IP's whenever the place loses power.


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## NoBot (Oct 12, 2019)

Use Cat5 or Cat6 POE cameras (power over ethernet) with an NVR (network video recorder). Be sure the NVR has a large enough hard drive to record all cameras for about 10-14 days. Most NVRs can have two hard drives. It's easy to add the second drive later. The NVR will supply power to all the cameras via POE.
Add a UPS (uninterruptible power supply), plug in battery backup


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

I would rather install one on a stand alone network then deal with the IT department.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

If you install it at the shop with everything connected to your network, the cameras and possibly the NVR will receive addresses via DHCP (from your shop router) and when you install it in the field, without a router or DHCP server present, you'll get zip, nothing will work. 

Some of the recorders that come with a built in PoE switch create a network within a network, they will work fine on their own, especially if you use the same brand cameras. However reviewing video from the console of the recorder is pretty rough around the edges and the devices are really junky janky brands, I won't deal with them. 

The more I think about it, if you're going to use a network based device, establish a network, even without internet connectivity, on the site, get an IT person involved if necessary. If you don't want to do that, a non-network based NVR and cameras is not bad. Coax doesn't necessarily mean analog. There are digital high def cameras that run over coax and recorders that work with those cameras AND network based cameras.

If you want to hedge, install both cat 6 and coax to each camera in anticipation of the day their off grid gets a network, or use ENT so you can add those cables easily when / if the time comes. The ENT can be valuable for a lot of things so it's money well spent for your customer. For example, they decide to install security or speakers, the ENT makes it cheap and easy.


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

paulengr said:


> Now the next issue solves the modern day problem that NOBODY memorizes phone numbers anymore. You don’t have to...you just look it up in your phone directory. DNS works the same way. Everyone just types in google.com instead of the actual address for google such as 4.4.4.4 (this actually works). Again it’s something on your router but your router just handles local names you create (if any). If there are none it passes everything up to the internet servers that do DNS.
> 
> So in terms of “just working” a camera may look to an external server for licensing or some proprietary routing and this is going to break and nothing you can do about it. Or it might be trying to use DHCP or DNS. So you need some device to provide these services, or manually set up everything.


No idea why you brought up DNS servers when the OP is asking for an offline network ?? (Or Bonjour, NAS, or why you had 2 NAT services running at your place ??)

Google does not own 4.4.4.4 , Level 3 communications does. Their DNS server uses 4.2.2.2.
Google has 8.8.8.8 and 8.8.4.4 (and others), but that is their DNS server, you cannot get to 'Google' from it.

I've never seen a Camera use DNS ... they are a device, they don't surf the internet. The router 'may' have DNS, if it's connected to the internet AND someone wants to surf.

Any camera I've setup that can be assigned an address via DHCP also allows that service to be disabled, and a manual IP address can be assigned.

I've never seen a camera that goes out to check for a license either. They licence the monitoring software, and you pay a fee per camera. That, or they charge a license fee in the cost for the camera. If they are out there, I'd be interested in which company actually does that.


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

WronGun said:


> What are you guys installing for surveillance systems without a network?
> 
> DVR with Analog Cameras ?
> 
> ...


Any DVR I've used has DHCP on it, so the cameras would just be plug and play. No need to have it on internet, but your customer will not be able to receive alarms or view alarm clips/video. Would be wise for them to get internet.

The POE function is just that ... Power Over Ethernet, it just powers the devices. Some DVRs and switches only have 'some' ports as POE. You can still run DHCP over any of them.

You will need a laptop to set this all up, and be capable of changing the adapter IPv4 settings to the local subnet of the network to setup the devices and DVR.
If that is not something you're familiar with, then as Splatz said, get an IT guy involved.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

emtnut said:


> Any DVR I've used has DHCP on it, so the cameras would just be plug and play. No need to have it on internet, but your customer will not be able to receive alarms or view alarm clips/video. Would be wise for them to get internet.
> 
> The POE function is just that ... Power Over Ethernet, it just powers the devices. Some DVRs and switches only have 'some' ports as POE. You can still run DHCP over any of them.
> 
> ...


We set this up at the shop. Cameras connected to nvr and saved IP info. 

Then it was just plug and play at the job, no internet. 

Didn’t have to change any of the settings. 

I’ve only had to hire an IT guy once for a 45 camera Axis Communications/Exacq Vision server system. Even then most of what he did was modem port settings, which I’ve also done numerous times with tech support on the phone. 


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