# installer cut off ground on SER cable



## cubgirl (May 18, 2016)

hi,

i have a 2 gang meter box, siemens WP2211RJ, with 200 amp service. i have a 1/0-1/0-1/0-2 to downstairs 125a breaker panel and a 2/0-2/0-2/0-4 derated (for attic heat) feeder to the upstairs to a 125a lug panel.

the installer cut off the ground on meter end of both SER's saying it was not necessary. i disagreed but he cut anyway, saying there was no where to tie the ground into the meter box. he showed me that neutral went to ground anyway... so the ground wire as being "redundant". 

i think he should've got a lug & tied the SER ground to ground bar on the meter that goes to earth.

any advice?? thanks!


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## AllWIRES (Apr 10, 2014)

They should be bonded at the service and separate in the feeder panels. Not sure why they would cut them off.


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## Tonedeaf (Nov 26, 2012)

if it's an electrical service meter it should not have a ground bar and you don't ground or bond the meter pan. 

This is part of the POCO's specifications for installing electrical services. PECO and PSEG in my area.

Grounding starts at the Panel.

If its a sub meter after the service you need grounds.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

That meter pan is a meter/main combo. That is the main disconnect where neutral and ground should be bonded. There should be an EGC from that meter to any subsequent panel.

The EC should not have cut off the EGC. He should have connected the EGC to the neutral bar.

If you look at a typical main panel in a house, you'll see that all the branch circuit grounds and neutrals "go to the same place", but that doesn't make them redundant.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

Your description of the meter socket enclosure is (2) meter sockets
rated for 100 amps each ( a 200 amp service) , with (2) 100 amp
OCP disconnects ...right?

If so , there should be bonding of the neutral and grounding (to
ground rods) out @ the meter socket service...The (2) feeders
are now sub feeders and should be going to (2) main lug sub
panels...right?

If the #4 grounding/bonding jumpers have been cut , you now 
have an incorrectly installed service , because back at the main
lug panels in the building , you must be bonding the neutral
with the grounding bonding jumper , which is very dangerous
as it may energize (to ground) parts /equipment that is not 
intended to be energized ( just bonded).

Grounding -bonding should never be boded to the neutral
after the service OCP main breaker..


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## Service Call (Jul 9, 2011)

I googled the part number and it is a 2/g meter main. The egc should "not" have been cut.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

To OP..
Who is the installer relating to cutting rhe EGC ??? 

As other posted here they are correct due you have meter main set up..

That should never done like that in first place..

It will be nice to take a photo of what that installer done..

And what the installer doing ? Put new equiment or what ???


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Was the guy who decided to cut it off the licensed electrician or just an employee ?


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## cubgirl (May 18, 2016)

Hi and thanks... I'm going to have to look up what EC & ECG are (earth ground conductor = ECG??)

anyway, the 2 gang meter had 100 amps going to each unit. the previous electrician installed 2-2-2-4 AWG as feeders, which carries only 90 amps. NEC allows this cable for 100a service. 

i wanted 125a in each unit to support each unit's load requirements. so new cables (the 2/0 & 1/0 SER's) replaced the old 90 amp feeders, the siemen's 100a breaker panel upstairs (P2020B1100CU) was removed and replaced with a 125a lug panel (P2020L1125CU). the 100a back fed breaker (QP2100) on the 200a panel downstairs (P4040B1200CU) was replaced with a 125 amp back fed breaker (QP2125). i installed two 125 amp tenant breakers (QS2125) in the gang meter.

so i now have a 200a panel downstairs with a 125a back fed main breaker as a main breaker and a 125a lug panel upstairs with no breaker (the tenant breaker is its disconnect).

i've heard about GND, EQPT GND, bonding, etc. and how sub-panels are wired differently. frankly, i don't totally understand this -- but seeing the #4 ground cut at the gang meter alarmed me. the installer insisted it was not necessary and cut it off. 

it was not my intention that the breaker & lug panels in each unit were to be sub-panels but if they are, i want to make sure the set up is safe... how can i tell if they're safe or not. the unit's are empty & i want to make sure everything is OK before moving someone in.

thank for your help.
cub


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

cubgirl said:


> i've heard about GND, EQPT GND, bonding, etc. and how sub-panels are wired differently. frankly, i don't totally understand this -- but seeing the #4 ground cut at the gang meter alarmed me. the installer insisted it was not necessary and cut it off.


 All of the stuff you said before this paragraph is fine and doesn't make any difference to the problem at hand.

The ground being cut is most definitely incorrect. It needs to be fixed. Your installer does not know what he is doing.



> it was not my intention that the breaker & lug panels in each unit were to be sub-panels but if they are, i want to make sure the set up is safe... how can i tell if they're safe or not. the unit's are empty & i want to make sure everything is OK before moving someone in.
> 
> thank for your help.
> cub


The fact that the two panels are "sub panels" isn't an issue. They are only considered sub panels because you have main breakers in the meter, which makes it the main disconnect for the house and the place where neutral and ground need to be bonded. From that point on, everything must have a separate neutral and ground conductor, even tho they land on the same terminal bar in the meter/main. This is something that an electrician understands, but an "installer" probably won't.

You need those grounds that were cut off, either by running new cable or by hacking in a splicebox on each end.

If you want it done safely, hire a real electrician. That is the only answer. Your installer has proven that he doesn't know what he is doing and needs to be replaced with someone qualified to do this work.


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## cubgirl (May 18, 2016)

P.S. I can open the panels & take pictures but not so sure about opening the gang meter. but i saw what he did. for each unit: two hots to the meter/tenant lugs, one neutral to neutral bus, cut off ground wire.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

cubgirl said:


> P.S. I can open the panels & take pictures but not so sure about opening the gang meter. but i saw what he did. for each unit: two hots to the meter/tenant lugs, one neutral to neutral bus, cut off ground wire.


Yes, that is completely incorrect.

Instead of being cut off, the grounds should have gone to the neutral bus as well.

I know it seems redundant, and that's why your "installer" cut it off, but it's the way it's supposed to be.

You also have to make sure that the neutral and grounds in both of those remote panels are separated. This is very important. Again, get a real electrician to do it.


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## cubgirl (May 18, 2016)

Jrzy said:


> You need those grounds that were cut off, either by running new cable or by hacking in a splicebox on each end.


my understanding was he did not cut the grounds at the panel end. i'll check it out. i hired a "real" electrician the 1st time. i was promised 125a each unit. during install, i asked if the cables had 125A capacity. I was told yes, yes. they were so stupid, they installed 100a breaker panels in each unit and 100a tenant breakers. then i discovered the feeders were 2-2-2-4, carrying only 90amps. they could've put in 125A breakers & fooled me but they weren't even that smart.

i'm happy with the 125A feeders but not happy with the GND issue. i looked at the siemen's drawing and see a GND for the meter box & a bus bar for EQPT GND. the meter box GND is connected to earth but there's nothing at EQPT GND.


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## cubgirl (May 18, 2016)

here is drawing for meter box. 

http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/pdfImages/3f/3ff8b575-c538-4ad2-8d94-a8ea95b44646.pdf


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## Service Call (Jul 9, 2011)

If you have a few inches of ground wire available in the main panel and the sub panel you can splice in a longer conductor.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

You'll see in the drawings that the GND and EQPT GND are all connected together.

You've been given the correct advice from multiple people. Now it's time to find a real electrician to fix this.


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## cubgirl (May 18, 2016)

Service Call said:


> If you have a few inches of ground wire available in the main panel and the sub panel you can splice in a longer conductor.


by main panel, do you mean the meter box? and are sub-panels the load centers?

is splicing an SER, while technically feasible, is it "legal" or up to code?

thanks again...


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

I agree with those guys posted here and get real electrician and they can fix it propely..

And do not let that installer get near that place at all..


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## Service Call (Jul 9, 2011)

cubgirl said:


> by main panel, do you mean the meter box? and are sub-panels the load centers?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Yes and yes.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

On rarest of rare occasions I use ser cable for single phase service drops to meter/main cans. Most in are in mast conduit instead. I cut the bare ground off at both ends leaving only three insulated wires. I use ser round because I buy it by the 1,000 foot spool, and also because I don't like the flat version with no insulation on the ''neutral'' wire and spread out around the two hots. - seen too many insulation breakdowns and spectacular short circuit events when those flat cables get aged. So round. Purist electricians will condemn me now, since there is an uninsulated lightning rod inside my cable that is connected to nothing on each end and is not ''bonded''. So be it.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

macmikeman said:


> On rarest of rare occasions I use ser cable for single phase service drops to meter/main cans. Most in are in mast conduit instead. I cut the bare ground off at both ends leaving only three insulated wires. I use ser round because I buy it by the 1,000 foot spool, and also because I don't like the flat version with no insulation on the ''neutral'' wire and spread out around the two hots. - seen too many insulation breakdowns and spectacular short circuit events when those flat cables get aged. So round. Purist electricians will condemn me now, since there is an uninsulated lightning rod inside my cable that is connected to nothing on each end and is not ''bonded''. So be it.


I always thought the neutral braided around the hots in SEU cable was for protection.

Where do you get weatherheads for round SER cable?


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

macmikeman said:


> On rarest of rare occasions I use ser cable for single phase service drops to meter/main cans. Most in are in mast conduit instead. I cut the bare ground off at both ends leaving only three insulated wires. I use ser round because I buy it by the 1,000 foot spool, and also because I don't like the flat version with no insulation on the ''neutral'' wire and spread out around the two hots. - seen too many insulation breakdowns and spectacular short circuit events when those flat cables get aged. So round. Purist electricians will condemn me now, since there is an uninsulated lightning rod inside my cable that is connected to nothing on each end and is not ''bonded''. So be it.


You are talking about line side of the meter to the mast?..Does that
have an outdoor rating and a sun light resistant rating? I'm not
sure if I'm understanding you??
The "flat" 3 wire (SEU) has an unsheathed neutral because that is the
only location that the neutral does not require sheathing...I agree with
you about not liking that...I would rather use the al-urd with xxee 
sunlight resistant rating in conduit before using that.

"Cub girl" originally posted , for the load side of a main meter 
disconnect , so SER , which has 2 hots 1 sheathed neutral and one 
non-sheathed grounding-bonding jumper is what should be used in
her application...the installer does not understand "grounding & bonding" 
vs "grounded" and is probably headed toward a big time eye opener
someday.

I am suspecting there is no AHJ looking at this service and If I were 
cub girl , I would not allow that service to be energized .:no:


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

Jrzy said:


> macmikeman said:
> 
> 
> > On rarest of rare occasions I use ser cable for single phase service drops to meter/main cans. Most in are in mast conduit instead. I cut the bare ground off at both ends leaving only three insulated wires. I use ser round because I buy it by the 1,000 foot spool, and also because I don't like the flat version with no insulation on the ''neutral'' wire and spread out around the two hots. - seen too many insulation breakdowns and spectacular short circuit events when those flat cables get aged. So round. Purist electricians will condemn me now, since there is an uninsulated lightning rod inside my cable that is connected to nothing on each end and is not ''bonded''. So be it.
> ...


They must make them. I've seen more than a couple 3 phase services with an SER riser.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Jrzy said:


> I always thought the neutral braided around the hots in SEU cable was for protection.
> 
> Where do you get weatherheads for round SER cable?


Supply houses. Hardware Hawaii. 


Ser round is rated sunlight and wet locations. 

And yes Lighterup, I was aware of the difference in where the op saw no ground wire and where I do it is from weatherhead to meter/main . I did say ''service drop, which is slang for the cable from point of attachment to meter unless you are on 14 in which case now it is strictly for the poco drop from the pole to the point of attachment in definitions.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Jrzy said:


> I always thought the neutral braided around the hots in SEU cable was for protection.
> 
> Where do you get weatherheads for round SER cable?


We are pretty much saturated with salt air in winter when the waves are huge, the braided strands in seu cable turn to mush pretty fast sometimes due to that. I see some trunk slammer's buying the flat cable sometimes, it is slightly cheaper to purchase, but the vast majority of sparky's around here will just use round ser and do like I do. They also sell round throated compression connectors for the SER cable just like the flat cable type except the rubber inside bushing is round.


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## cubgirl (May 18, 2016)

i see why the SER must have EGC & neutral bonded. even in this illustration, the path between the meter and the main almost appears as one wire... but it should be two wires, EGC & neutral.

i told the guy not to cut it


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

cubgirl said:


> i see why the SER must have EGC & neutral bonded. even in this illustration, the path between the meter and the main almost appears as one wire... but it should be two wires, EGC & neutral.
> 
> i told the guy not to cut it


Well no, in that image there is only 1 wire from the meter to the main, that is called the neutral. The ground is born in the main panel, so anything after the main requires separate neutral and ground.

Ground is derived in the main panel by being bonded to neutral and having the GECs connected there. The GEC in your image is the orange ground symbols, they symbolize ground rods or other grounding electrodes.


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## cubgirl (May 18, 2016)

ok, thank you, everyone has been so helpful. i want to make sure i understand this. had i understood this initially, i could've argued my point or just have insisted the SER ground to be connected to the meter's neutral bus.

is the following statement taken from the code correct (specifically, the location of the items mentioned in the code)? my interpretations are italicized/bold...

250.130 Equipment Ground connections at service equipment shall be made as indicated in 250.130(A) or (B). 
(A) For Grounded Systems. The connection shall be made by bonding the equipment grounding conductor (*i.e., the unsheathed SER ground cable*) to the grounded service conductor (*i.e., the grounded neutral from utility company*) and the grounding electrode conductor (_*i.e., the earth ground*_).​
since my gang meter is grounded to earth, the EQPT GND on the SER needed to be connected to the grounded service neutral conductor and the bond between the neutral & ground should be removed at each panel. 

but if the gang meter were not grounded, then the EQPT GND on the SER still should have been attached to earth ground but the bond between the neutral & ground at each panel would remain intact and each individual panel should be connected to an earth ground.

i take it that earth ground is for lightening protection and equipment ground is for line-ground fault protection. that's what this guy didn't understand... they're NOT redundant.

so currently i have lightening protection but no is EQPT GND for fault protection. 

am i understanding this correctly??

thanks
cubgirl


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## cubgirl (May 18, 2016)

OK, I'm continuing to read and I'm wondering why this does not apply...

Section 250.142(A)(1) Neutral to case connection.

"At service equipment, the service neutral conductor provides the effective ground-fault current path to the power supply [250.24(C)]; therefore, an equipment grounding conductor isn't required to be installed within PVC conduit containing service entrance conductors [250.142(A)(1) and 352.60 Ex 2]."

So, if the gang meter is service equipment and the installer connected the SER neutral to the grounded neutral from the POCO, is what he did OK?? It looks exactly like the 2nd picture. (My understanding is the service equipment comes bonded from the manufacturer.)

Can somebody shed some light on this for me please? I need to either move on or get this fixed ASAP.

Thanks,
cubgirl


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## Service Call (Jul 9, 2011)

From the first means of disconnect (the main breaker in the 2 gang meter main) to the sub panel, requires the equipment ground (EGC) that was cut. From the overhead or underground "service", the EGC is not required.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

In that illustration there are two units, the meter pan and the main disconnect.
In your situation, both of those units are together in one piece, it's called a meter/main combo.

Everything after the main disconnect requires a separate neutral and ground.

The code that you quoted says "*service* neutral conductor", which in your case, is only inside of the meter/main. No other neutral can be used as the grounding conductor.



> Can somebody shed some light on this for me please? I need to either move on or get this fixed ASAP.


 You have been given correct advice from many people, everyone has agreed (which is very odd here). Call an *electrician* and have him fix this major screw up. That is the only answer.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

cubgirl, I know you are trying hard to find a way to not have to re-do this screw up. But just so you know, this exact situation is why people get shocked when they lean against their washing machine while touching the faucet. Or why people feel a tingle while they are taking a shower.

It's wrong and it needs to be fixed. Chances are a good electrician can pull some slack into the box and splice onto the cut ground wire. I'm sure he will also find many other things wrong with the installation along the way.

Remember, hiring the cheap person often turns out to be more expensive.


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## cubgirl (May 18, 2016)

i'm trying to understand this. you know, give a fish & feed one meal or teach to fish, feed many meals... that's a good thing (or so i thought).

so in my meter unit, the service neutral is grounded and the SER neutral goes to the grounded service neutral. so why does 250.142(A)(1) not apply?

Code: 250.142 Use of Grounded Circuit Conductor for Grounding Equipment
A) Supply Side Equipment A grounded circuit conductor shall be permitted to ground non-current carrying metal parts of equipment raceways and other enclosures at any of the following locations 
1) On the supply side or within the enclosure of the ac service disconnecting means​
the words in the code "of the ac service disconnecting means" does not specify it must be only a single piece of equipment. the meter/main combo (i.e., the siemen's 2 gang meter) IS the supply side service disconnecting equipment, is it not?

other than mine being an all-in-one unit, my setup is exactly like the neutral to case picture.

i'm a retired engineer and capable of understanding this. i need to understand myself first.

thanks,
cub


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## cubgirl (May 18, 2016)

my question still stands... why does 250.142 (A)(1) not apply??


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## cubgirl (May 18, 2016)

Service Call said:


> From the first means of disconnect (the main breaker in the 2 gang meter main) to the sub panel, requires the equipment ground (EGC) that was cut. From the overhead or underground "service", the EGC is not required.


thanks... in the picture the SER has no ground. it's neutral is going to the grounded service neutral.

this is exactly what i have... is it wrong? if so, what is 250.142 about?

NEC code is convoluted...


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

cubgirl said:


> my question still stands... why does 250.142 (A)(1) not apply??


I answered this question in post #31.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

cubgirl said:


> thanks... in the picture the SER has no ground. it's neutral is going to the grounded service neutral.
> 
> this is exactly what i have... is it wrong? if so, what is 250.142 about?
> 
> NEC code is convoluted...


There is no SER in the picture. SER is only used after the service disconnect.

It is NOT what you have.

On this issue, the NEC is crystal clear.

250.142A1 is about the service entrance conductors between the meter and the first means of disconnect. Unlike the above illustration, In your situation the first means of disconnect is inside of the meter. 

If the first means of disconnect where the main breakers in those two panels you have, then you would be able to run SEU cable (3 conductor, no ground) to them. But they're not.


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## cubgirl (May 18, 2016)

so i'm going to get this fixed ASAP... i've been advised to get a splice box to splice the #4 GND on the SER but that solution bothers me a bit. there is no GND left at the meter end. we could splice it in the middle of the SER (at least the 35' 2/0; the 1/0 would be more difficult as most of it is in conduit) but i'd rather have a non-spliced ground wire.

is a better solution just buying a sheathed #4 and running it separately in parallel to the SER?

here is the schematic of the meter main, attached. my plan is to run #4 to the N2/EQPT GND bus/bar (which is already bonded by the manufacturer, is that right??) and the other end will to the ground bar at the panel.

at each siemens panel (schematics attached), i'm going to ensure the neutral and ground bus/bars are NOT bonded together. they're not bonded at the factory, right? so unless a jumper is installed, i can assume they are not bonded.

taking these steps will fix everything, is that correct? is there anything else i need to know or do??

thanks for your help. i appreciate it very much.
cub


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

There should be enough of the EGC/ground to make a butt splice. That's unless he cut it before going into the conduit and it's not inside the meter main. Splicing is fine for the ground if done properly.

By code, you can't run a separate wire for the ground since it's part of a cable assembly. All conductors have to be in the same cable assembly. Had they been individual conductors in conduit then you could run a separate conductor.

If you can't get enough slack to pull the ground in enough to do a splice, then you have no choice but to install a junction box to splice or run a new cable. 
I would make the installer foot the bill on whatever you do!


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## cubgirl (May 18, 2016)

he cut it at the meter... 

do you mean a butt splice like this?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

cubgirl said:


> he cut it at the meter...


 Like I told you on the last page, a good electrician could find some slack somewhere and get a few more inches of cable into the meter panel, that's all you need.



> do you mean a butt splice like this?


Yes, that is one example. You could use one smaller than that, one that only requires an inch or two of wire inside of the meter panel.


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## Service Call (Jul 9, 2011)

And you don't need the heat shrink.


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## cubgirl (May 18, 2016)

i hired a licensed electrical company to do this job in April. they did no load calculations; they derated no wires (he acted like he didn't even know what it was). i asked the electrician for 125A in each unit, minimum. what i got was 2-2-2-4 feeders that carry 90A, and even while they were installing, they assured me the feeders had 125A ampacity. then they put in 100A tenant breakers & 100A mains in the subpanels. they must've thought i was a total fool.

i fired them and bought new feeders and new subpanels to fix their crummy work. i had to have a minimum of a 125A panel w/ 60A double pole for tankless water heater in one of the units (the smallest one). i did my own load calcs and 125A was the MINIMUM required in each unit to support the load.

i got a friend to help me fix because i knew i could not handle the 1/0 and 2/0 SER's. unfortunately, he cut the EGC's. now i'm fixing his mistake. however, his error is more acceptable because, while it's wrong, it was at least an honest mistake.

after i realized the electrician screwed me, i called the AHJ but here, in my neck of the woods, the AHJ is a joke. i went to them about the lack of load calcs, the non-de-rated cable and the fact i got two 100A panels when i was told i'd get two 125A. the AHJ doesn't really check their work, but goes by what the contractor signs off on what he SAYS he did. the AHJ guy said he can't force contractors to do load calcs or to install derated cables... he said if he did, the contractors would call the mayor who would then call his boss & his job would be in jeopardy. that's when i realized the AHJ & contractors are in bed together and neither one give a rat's a$$ about the end customers. it's a giant good ole boy system here.

so i'm on my own...

if anyone wants to impart electrical knowledge to help i'd appreciate that. if not that's OK too; i'm figuring it out on my own.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

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