# 309A vs. 442A



## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

The 442A is a pretty useless license but some employers specifically want it, so I guess there's that. I was also told the legal liability is different, and I also don't think there is an expiry date so there shouldn't be a renewal fee either(I could be wrong about this). When I move back to Ontario I might give it a shot. Don't know about the grant money though.


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## cdnelectrician (Mar 14, 2008)

It all depends on why you want the 442 license. Places like CN rail and the TTC will only hire guys with a 442 ticket (from what I hear). Unless you plan on working in a plant or for an organisation that requires the 442 I don't see the point. 

As far as OCOT is concerned, I don't believe they will charge you a yearly fee because a 442 electrician is not considered a compulsory trade. Nothing wrong with expanding your knowledge though, so if you have the time go for it!


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## Tommyboy26 (Sep 10, 2012)

I have come to most of the same conclusions. Though I did not know that the TTC only looks for potential employees with a 442. They are on my radar of employers I would apply to. I have heard that a 309A is like having all three ( 309C and 442a) you guys think this is true?


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## cdnelectrician (Mar 14, 2008)

It is, the 309A covers all of them.


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## Canadian sparky (Sep 19, 2011)

The 309a is in my opinion more versatile...


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## Stevemo (Apr 24, 2015)

Hi guys,
I have been an electrical engineer for the past 10 years with a lot of HV station experience and am ready to make a change. From what I have read the 442A is industrial but does that allow you to work for a high voltage contractor in other company's stations? 
I have been made aware of a high voltage contractor in Ontario that has taken engineers in the past and got them to go through the 442A apprenticeship so I am trying to get a bit of an understanding of how this works before I contact them.
My interest is really focused, just HV work like controls, protection, metering, power transformers, breakers, towers, etc. Where I currently work we hire 309a's and 442a's and let them do whatever but we do not do contract work...we have our own 115 kV station and 70+ substations off of it. 
Any info on what a 442A could do as a contractor would be greatly appreciated.
Cheers, Steve


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## Tsmil (Jul 17, 2011)

As a contractor, the 442 is useless. With the 442 you can only work on the premises of your employer. The only exception that I know of is an oem manufacturer. The 442 holder can travel for equipment install and service but cannot touch the power feed to their supplied equipment.

I started with 442 and switched to 309A.


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## KDC (Oct 19, 2012)

Stevemo said:


> Hi guys,
> My interest is really focused, just HV work like controls, protection, metering, power transformers, breakers, towers, etc.


 You might think it's focused, but man, that covers a lot. 

Where I work, that'd be 3 different guys. Protection & Metering is guys with technology backgrounds, Breakers & Power Transformers is Power Electricians (like me) and the Towers would be Linemen (aka Power Line Technicians).


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## Stevemo (Apr 24, 2015)

Tsmil said:


> As a contractor, the 442 is useless. With the 442 you can only work on the premises of your employer. The only exception that I know of is an oem manufacturer. The 442 holder can travel for equipment install and service but cannot touch the power feed to their supplied equipment.
> 
> I started with 442 and switched to 309A.


Interesting, having a 442 would not make much sense at all. I am certain that they service other vendor's products so this will be important to talk about with them. Trying to troubleshoot something without having control over the power source would be maddening. 
Thanks, Steve


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## Stevemo (Apr 24, 2015)

KDC said:


> You might think it's focused, but man, that covers a lot.
> 
> Where I work, that'd be 3 different guys. Protection & Metering is guys with technology backgrounds, Breakers & Power Transformers is Power Electricians (like me) and the Towers would be Linemen (aka Power Line Technicians).


Yeah, I guess it is sort of all over the place. This is the stuff that a HV service contractor would focus on so that is what I would expect to be working on. 
I find that utilities are more able to break this type of work up but it is a lot more broad in an industrial environment. I have brought in training for our guys to teach them MV splicing/terminations, relay calibration, power transformer maintenance, and breaker overhauls. If it is something they don't know very well I will go out in the field with them and we'll work it out together. 
We just bought a Power Factor tester and one of the guys I had taught is a fire alarm guy. You just get whoever the lead hand sends. 
Steve


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## AK_sparky (Aug 13, 2013)

I have 309A. A few times in job interviews I've been asked which ticket I have...There is always a sigh of relief when I tell them its a 309A.

From what I understand, the 442A was set up for plant maintenance personnel to have a legal way to work on electrical IN THEIR FACILITY ONLY!

I would go with the 309A. I has none of the limitations of the other licenses. If you want to learn some hydraulics, take a night course. The amount you learn in that one course in tradeschool is only marginally better than finding a good youtube video.


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## Arod1023# (Dec 28, 2020)

I here all these people saying a 442 is useless really well I bet not one 309a has anyone how to set up a Vfd from scratch or write a program in a plc from scratch but you guys sure can bend pipe


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## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

Other than the post being over 5 years old...

Part of the training that both 309 and 442 get is VFD and programming PLCs.

The only difference in training (classroom) is that the Level III 442 get a course on fluid power and the Level III 309 get an additional prints course.

The 442 is very limited in use outside the industrial setting and in fact is not even a required ticket (voluntary trade). The 309 has a lot of mobility and is just as effective in the industrial setting as well as the construction setting.

Cheers
John


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## Arod1023# (Dec 28, 2020)

Navyguy said:


> Other than the post being over 5 years old...
> 
> Part of the training that both 309 and 442 get is VFD and programming PLCs.
> 
> ...


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

Arod1023# said:


> I here all these people saying a 442 is useless really well I bet not one 309a has anyone how to set up a Vfd from scratch or write a program in a plc from scratch but you guys sure can bend pipe


Some of them know how to make a coherent sentence too.


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## Arod1023# (Dec 28, 2020)

Unfortunately your not correct if the required training your talking about is in the classroom that’s not what I would call experienced controls person also having worked in an environment where I have seen and hired many 442 and 309 we have always found guys who wire houses or fire alarms or apartment buildings are extremely week in the industrial field the 309 is a ticket supported by unions in government that’s it and that’s why it’s compulsory you wire one house or one apartment bldg you wired 100.The fact is the 309 exam is an apartment calculation and how to read the code book .It’s people on these forums saying crap about how good it is to be a 309 verses a 442 I have both tickets and unless I want to do side jobs or work out of the hall the 442 in today’s industry is the ticket that’s why people ask for it


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## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

You can't compare a person's experience to the ticket they hold. I would argue there are plenty of 442s that have limited experience in those areas also as much as 309s have that experience. As a side note, most of the people out there programming the VFDs and PLCs are programmers and they are not even electricians...

I hold a 309... I know how to install and program a PLC and a VFD... Now ask a 442s how many different PLCs they can install and program. I bet their answer is only the ones they have experience on, it has nothing to do with the fact that they hold a 442...

I am not sure why you wanted to come on here and make a fight between the 309s and the 442s with your initial posts... You say you have both tickets, no need for that because the 309 covers everything a 442 does plus more. The majority of people that have both tickets come from a background that they started with a 442 and found out how limited the 442 was and went back and wrote their 309.

I have found most employers don't know the difference between the tickets; all they see is the title "Industrial" and they think that is what they need. Once I educate them on the differences, they almost always go for the 309 ticket and then look at the experience of the candidate. The opposite is true also, if I look at a 309 ticket and all they have is plant work, and I need a house wired he is not my guy... but that has nothing to do with his ticket, but his experience.

Cheers
John


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## Arod1023# (Dec 28, 2020)

There is no fight and my initial posts were to put one against the other but for years I have seen first hand the actual truth of what happens in the real world .Most guys who come from residential and construction struggle with industrial control you as would probably most industrIal guys working in construction or residential but after I wired a house or apartment or ran 100ft of pipe I would figure it out pretty quick that doesn’t happen in the industrial world Also plc programmers are electricians if they work in the industrial field john most plants don’t hire programmers they hire guys who Have extensive plc programming who have worked with several types of plcs I do agree you are correct that you can not judge a person by the ticket they hold but just because the unions have pushed to make that license mandatory does not make it any better than the 442 I think showing some respect To this ticket and the people who hold it is justified here on this forum 

cheers !


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## Arod1023# (Dec 28, 2020)

I do apologize in advance for and grammar issues that I have posted and I did not come on here to put of ticket against the other to clarify.I was wiring a basement and my fingers were sore


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## Arod1023# (Dec 28, 2020)

John I want to apologize if I offended you we both work in the field but in different capacities and we will never agree on which license is better I gues it depends on where you work and what you like to do in the field that counts .As long as we all have work and support our families in these crappy times that’s what counts.I appreciate your views and respect them as well.Good luck in your career 

cheers
Arod


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## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

So I know this has been posted in other threads before by me and others.

The history of the 442 stemmed from the idea that the auto industry wanted to “certify” people within their own company. Why that was an issue, I am not sure but I suspect it started with “job classification” issue and who could do what.

This is where the term “Maintenance Electrician” came from and the “ticket” was only good that the plant where it was earned. As time progressed there was mobility between plants, so you could go to a GM plant in London and Oshawa and still be good. You could not go to the Ford plant however.

As time marched on, there was more of an effort to standardize within the auto sector (primarily because of the common representation) and now you could travel from any automotive plant to another easily (GM to GM to Ford). As more companies began to support the auto industry, there was a push to allow these experienced and skilled manufacturing electricians to other similar but not specifically related to the auto industry jobs. This essentially was the birth of the “Industrial Electrician”. Since then it continues to morph and is now in multiple industries such as food, injection moulding, pharmaceuticals, forestry, etc.

However still to this day, in Ontario specifically, the 442 ticket is an unregulated and voluntary trade. The Ontario regulation states clearly that anyone doing electrical work in an industrial setting must be “deemed competent”; but that can be attained in any number of ways. Having said that, most companies find it easiest to have someone with a 442 and be “deemed competent” then try to go through their own hoops that can be scrutinized legally if ever there was an issue or accident.

So back to your comment, it really has nothing to do with the 442 ticket, it has to do with the hands-on experience of the individual(s). Here is another example of differing experiences…I recently worked on a project where all the PLC and VFD programming and HMI development was done by a company that specializes in that. None of them were / are electricians and most of them are computer programmers with an electrical or process and graphics background. Now they cannot go out and physically install the PLC or the VFD, but they did the rest, but the plant maintenance electrician cannot install that PLC either because it is “construction” and not maintenance; that is a restriction of the 442, no construction related activities.

Now in time the person designated in that plant will have to go and maintain that PLC / VFD and will have to know how it works, might be an electrician, might be a maintenance guy that is good with that sort of stuff… who knows.

I don’t know that the union supports the 309 more than the 442, but I could see that the union understands the mobility of the 309 and that would be very attractive to them especially knowing that the 309 can do everything the 442 can do plus more. By having that mobility of a 309, a person can move from an industrial job to a commercial job and back as workforce demands or they can be more useful to their employer to do construction related jobs at the plant.

Cheers
John


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## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

Arod1023# said:


> John I want to apologize if I offended you we both work in the field but in different capacities and we will never agree on which license is better I gues it depends on where you work and what you like to do in the field that counts .As long as we all have work and support our families in these crappy times that’s what counts.I appreciate your views and respect them as well.Good luck in your career
> 
> cheers
> Arod


No need to apologize, I am not offended. I agree that we are out there doing our best to support our families and communities with our work.

I think the 442 is better for some people in some circumstances. But I don't believe it is that specialized knowing both training programs well. It is the experience of the individual that makes the difference. The 309 clearly have more mobility and you cannot compare that issue alone.

Cheers
John


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## Kevin (Feb 14, 2017)

Please use punctuation marks. It's very important in programming. If you use run on code it will not work, just like a run on sentence... and fill out your profile


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## Arod1023# (Dec 28, 2020)

Kevin_Essiambre said:


> Please use punctuation marks. It's very important in programming. If you use run on code it will not work, just like a run on sentence... and fill out your profile


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## Arod1023# (Dec 28, 2020)

Thanks for the information and your right using run on code will not work since grammatically thanks incorrect But if you use run in code it works fine but Thanks for the heads up.Also just to update not sure where you went to school but the one class of plc’s does not put you in the 442 arena


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## John Adams (Feb 5, 2021)

I know that as an electrical engineer you can write your master electrician exam. That might be a good place to start if you’re looking to get into the trades. You might have an easier time getting an apprenticeship having proved you know the CEC. Most electricians have a 309a or 442a before writing their masters but does anyone know if writing your masters first exempts you from any exams when going for your 309a or 442a?


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

John Adams said:


> I know that as an electrical engineer you can write your master electrician exam. That might be a good place to start if you’re looking to get into the trades. You might have an easier time getting an apprenticeship having proved you know the CEC. Most electricians have a 309a or 442a before writing their masters but does anyone know if writing your masters first exempts you from any exams when going for your 309a or 442a?


No it does not. There is very little electrical code in the masters exam, it is more about safety and running a business legally. 

The masters is also a provincial regulation where the 309A is interprovincial.


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## acompany413 (2 mo ago)

hi every one good evning
i want to get the 3 electrition certificate 
309A - 309C - 442A
how can i get them 
please tell me how 
am fromTunisia


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## acompany413 (2 mo ago)

Tommyboy26 said:


> hi all, I am curious to know if you think it redundant to acquire a 442A after you get your 309A? I have tried everything but call the MTCU for advice. The only difference i can tell is that there is a hydraulics class supplemented for a prints class in advanced. Second, could I get all the grant money again for writing and passing the exam...provided I took the hydraulics coarse? pros and cons? (Ontario Canada) thanks guys.
> ps. would I have to pay OCOT two renewal fees? one for each certificate? errr.


hi 
good evning
i want to get the 3 electrician certificate
309A - 309C - 442A
how can i get them
i know nothing about those certificates either how get them 
so please tell me how
am an electrician fromTunisia


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