# 250.148 question



## Monkeyboy (Jul 28, 2012)

On the commercial side we ground everything in that junction box.


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## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

I would connect all the grounds together. One ground I would wrap around a ground screw first before going to the splice. That would eliminate one wire in the splice. If it was that bad I would not tail out a ground for the switch. 

I would consider all those wires associated because they are in the same box. 

If the lighting was 277v,I would do something different. If I had over 300v between the switch and the outlet, I would use a box divider and ground the box and devices separate.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

The code itself reads hard>



> *250.148 Continuity and Attachment of Equipment
> Grounding Conductors to Boxes.* Where circuit conduc-
> tors are spliced within a box, or terminated on equipment
> within or supported by a box, any equipment grounding con-
> ...



So one could have a green grounding screw for each egc , and use self grounding devices here.


~CS~


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## Kaffeene (Feb 11, 2014)

..."or terminated on equipment within or supported by a box..."

If your receptacle is within or supported by the box then that EGC shall be connected within the box OR to the box. 

You could enter the box with the receptacle circuit conductors and wrap the EGC around another screw. 

Also to avoid one additional EGC lead terminating on the switch you could just follow 404.9 (B) (1) for grounding if the box is metal. 

What I would do is wrap one, or two EGC entering the box on a green screw and tie the EGC together with 2 leads to the devices (unless you wrapped the equipment grounding conductor of the switch circuit around a second green screw and connected it to the switch, then you would need only need one lead to the receptacle).


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## 3xdad (Jan 25, 2011)




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## B W E (May 1, 2011)

It sounds like the consensus is that all of you would tie them together. However, if the intent of this code was that *all* egc in the box must be connected, why would it not just say that. Instead, it says "associated with those circuit conductors".

Is the egc from the receptacle circuit "associated with" the circuit conductors of the lighting circuit? How and why?

Seems like a lot of words when *all* would have been much shorter and more clear.


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## B W E (May 1, 2011)

Kaffeene said:


> ..."or terminated on equipment within or supported by a box..."
> 
> If your receptacle is within or supported by the box then that EGC shall be connected within the box OR to the box.


Isn't the intent here to ensure the box is bonded? In my case, the box is bonded.


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## Monkeyboy (Jul 28, 2012)

I suppose that don't want it to be to clear, then we would not use our brains. Also, the inspectors wouldn't be able to bust chops once in a while.


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## Kaffeene (Feb 11, 2014)

B W E said:


> Isn't the intent here to ensure the box is bonded? In my case, the box is bonded.


I was just pointing out that it addressed that all devices attached to or within the box or splices (EGC associated with those circuit conductors...) should have their circuit equipment grounding conductors connected together and to a metallic box.

Either by tying them all together and one to the metal box OR tying some together and some to the metal box. 

I think it says "Those" instead of "All" because saying "...associated with those circuit conductors..." refers to the circuit conductors it just mentioned.

And "...associated with ALL circuit conductors..." is too broad and can be mistaken for meaning every EGC in the box, or even in the building (even though that's goofy).

Even if 250.148 was worded "...associated with ALL circuit conductors WITHIN the box..." it still would not be an accurate explanation. 
Because circuit conductors that pass through a box with no splices within the box or to devices within or attached to the box are not required to have their EGC connected in that box.


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## Monkeyboy (Jul 28, 2012)

Kaffeene said:


> I was just pointing out that it addressed that all devices attached to or within the box or splices (EGC associated with those circuit conductors...) should have their circuit equipment grounding conductors connected together and to a metallic box. Either by tying them all together and one to the metal box OR tying some together and some to the metal box. I think it says "Those" instead of "All" because saying "...associated with those circuit conductors..." refers to the circuit conductors it just mentioned. And "...associated with ALL circuit conductors..." is too broad and can be mistaken for meaning every EGC in the box, or even in the building (even though that's goofy). Even if 250.148 was worded "...associated with ALL circuit conductors WITHIN the box..." it still would not be an accurate explanation. Because circuit conductors that pass through a box with no splices within the box or to devices within or attached to the box are not required to have their EGC connected in that box.


Exactly. Good explanation.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

crimp barrels. Next question....


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## B W E (May 1, 2011)

macmikeman said:


> crimp barrels. Next question....


I was never asking "how can I do this?". I was asking if all them them were *required* to be connected per 250.148.


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## Monkeyboy (Jul 28, 2012)

In cut feed through, no. Any splices, I'd say yes.


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## Monkeyboy (Jul 28, 2012)

Monkeyboy said:


> In cut feed through, no. Any splices, I'd say yes.


Un cut


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

What I do is strip the longest wire and wrap it around the ground screw, so you eliminate the jumper. Then I use another ground to loop the other devices together. Then tie all the loose ends together with a wire nut. In your case, there would be 3 wires in the wirenut.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

The loopy wording is crafted to deal with* ISOLATED GROUNDING CONDUCTORS*.

These are now regarded as a passing fad, as modern devices are no longer so glitch prone that the field wiring is blamed.


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## B W E (May 1, 2011)

InPhase277 said:


> What I do is strip the longest wire and wrap it around the ground screw, so you eliminate the jumper. Then I use another ground to loop the other devices together. Then tie all the loose ends together with a wire nut. In your case, there would be 3 wires in the wirenut.


I get that this is a reasonable way to do it, however, again, I am not looking for different ways of doing this. I am looking for a definitive answer as to whether or not all egc's from all circuits *must* be connected inside a 4square box with two attached devices.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

_'Associated_' ...?

like what? casual sex?



~C(cheap but not easy)S~


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

B W E said:


> I get that this is a reasonable way to do it, however, again, I am not looking for different ways of doing this. I am looking for a definitive answer as to whether or not all egc's from all circuits *must* be connected inside a 4square box with two attached devices.



As posted immediately above ... the strict answer is NO.

EGCs that are routed as ISOLATED GROUNDS are NOT to be tied into the rest of the bonding scheme -- until they reach the grounding rail... the single point of bonding.

The standard practice is for all common grounding conductors to be cross connected at every opportunity ( j-box ) -- to create an equipotential voltage plane at every point in the system.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

I think 250.148 as stated above holds the answer and I would say yes all equipment grounding conductor's must be spliced together



> 250.148 Continuity and Attachment of Equipment
> Grounding Conductors to Boxes. Where circuit conductors
> are spliced within a box, or terminated on equipment
> within or supported by a box, any equipment grounding conductor(
> ...


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

B W E said:


> I get that this is a reasonable way to do it, however, again, I am not looking for different ways of doing this. I am looking for a definitive answer as to whether or not all egc's from all circuits *must* be connected inside a 4square box with two attached devices.


In my interpretation, no. You're not required to tie them all together. But it is good form. It forms a multiply redundant bonding system.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

telsa said:


> The standard practice is for all common grounding conductors to be cross connected at every opportunity ( j-box ) -- to create an equipotential voltage plane at every point in the system.


So does that divide the fault return back?

~CS~


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

B W E said:


> It sounds like the consensus is that all of you would tie them together. However, if the intent of this code was that *all* egc in the box must be connected, why would it not just say that. Instead, it says "associated with those circuit conductors".


Because only the EGCs that are associated with the circuits that splice or terminate to a device at that box have to bonded to the box. An EGC that is associated with a circuit that passes through the box without a splice or termination is not required to be bonded to the box.


> Is the egc from the receptacle circuit "associated with" the circuit conductors of the lighting circuit? How and why? ...


The rule doesn't say that the circuits are associated with each other. It applies to EGCs that are associated with circuits that splice or terminate at the box.


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## Kaffeene (Feb 11, 2014)

B W E said:


> I get that this is a reasonable way to do it, however, again, I am not looking for different ways of doing this. I am looking for a definitive answer as to whether or not all egc's from all circuits *must* be connected inside a 4square box with two attached devices.


Definitive answer = NO (sort of) (hmmm... not that definitive)

All EGC from ALL circuits don't need to be connected, IF one of those circuits is passing through and doesn't connect to any devices that is within or attached to that box, you do not need to cut the EGC of a circuit passing through and splice it with the other in the box. 
In your case you need to connect them all. 

Of course if you have a circuit that comes into a box that doesn't pass through to some other location, And also doesn't connect to any device within or supported by the box (a cirucit that enters the box and is wire nutted with no splices) then you don't need to connect the EGC. 
However, it might be best practice to connect the EGC.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

All EGCS are associated because the originate from the main bonding jumper.


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## pete87 (Oct 22, 2012)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> Because only the EGCs that are associated with the circuits that splice or terminate to a device at that box have to bonded to the box. An EGC that is associated with a circuit that passes through the box without a splice or termination is not required to be bonded to the box.
> 
> The rule doesn't say that the circuits are associated with each other. It applies to EGCs that are associated with circuits that splice or terminate at the box.




Well Said Don ... BUT ... Is the OP Correct ,,, AND .... Is this a 3 wire Feed from 
the Panel ...


Wise Man Said ... , " There are NO Friendly Debates "



Pete


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## pete87 (Oct 22, 2012)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> Because only the EGCs that are associated with the circuits that splice or terminate to a device at that box have to bonded to the box. An EGC that is associated with a circuit that passes through the box without a splice or termination is not required to be bonded to the box.
> 
> The rule doesn't say that the circuits are associated with each other. It applies to EGCs that are associated with circuits that splice or terminate at the box.





Dennis Alwon said:


> I think 250.148 as stated above holds the answer and I would say yes all equipment grounding conductor's must be spliced together




3 Wire Feed ... ?


Just Making Trouble ...


( to the OP ... Questions Like This is why Inspectors Do not Open Boxes )




Pete


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

What does a 3 wire feed have to do with this.... If the equipment grounding conductor is spliced in the box then all the equipment grounding conductor's must be spliced together. If there is an equipment grounding conductor that run thru the box then that would not need to be spliced to the others.


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## pete87 (Oct 22, 2012)

Dennis Alwon said:


> What does a 3 wire feed have to do with this.... If the equipment grounding conductor is spliced in the box then all the equipment grounding conductor's must be spliced together. If there is an equipment grounding conductor that run thru the box then that would not need to be spliced to the others.




Just making trouble Den ... If a Circuit Originates as a 3 Wire Feed and
later divides at a JB box with 1 Circuit going one way and 2 Circuit going 
another way ... Like in a Kitchen ,,, and come back to a Same Box ...


Just Making Trouble Den .



Pete


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

pete87 said:


> Just making trouble Den ... If a Circuit Originates as a 3 Wire Feed and
> later divides at a JB box with 1 Circuit going one way and 2 Circuit going
> another way ... Like in a Kitchen ,,, and come back to a Same Box ...
> 
> ...


So all of the circuit conductors are spliced or terminated in the box and therefore all of the EGCs mus be connected to the box.


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