# Why insulated tools?



## Josue (Apr 25, 2010)

Hey I am new in this and I don´t know whay buy insulated tools (pliers, strippers, etc.) if they are so expensive.
what is their advantage?


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Insulated tools are largely unnecessary unless you do hot work.


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

Josue said:


> Hey I am new in this and I don´t know whay buy insulated tools (pliers, strippers, etc.) if they are so expensive.
> what is their advantage?


 
If you are new to the trade get some years under your belt before you even think of buying insulated tools.


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## Josue (Apr 25, 2010)

ok thanks


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

randomkiller said:


> If you are new to the trade get some years under your belt before you even think of buying insulated tools.



You shouldn't be working hot in your first few years anyway.


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

480sparky said:


> You shouldn't be working hot in your first few years anyway.


 
That's where I was headed. If he's new he maybe working at home depot before he needs insulated tools.


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## michael3 (Mar 14, 2010)

"hot work" are we talking about changing a light switch with the circuit on or a lot bigger than that?


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

michael3 said:


> "hot work" are we talking about changing a light switch with the circuit on or a lot bigger than that?


All of the above.


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## mikeh32 (Feb 16, 2009)

1st years are not even aloud to work on hot wires


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

mikeh32 said:


> 1st years are not even aloud to work on hot wires


He's in Mexico. They're on the ICC rules, but I doubt NFPA70E is in force.


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## mikeh32 (Feb 16, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> He's in Mexico. They're on the ICC rules, but I doubt NFPA70E is in force.


ohhhhh. mexico.....

do they even have rules?


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

MDShunk said:


> He's in Mexico. They're on the ICC rules, but I doubt NFPA70E is in force.


I'd be interested in checking it out, in case you ever wanted to retire to Mexico on the beach somewhere and do some part time work, consulting or such.


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

mikeh32 said:


> 1st years are not even aloud to work on hot wires


 
Very true they are not allowed.


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

BuzzKill said:


> I'd be interested in checking it out, in case you ever wanted to retire to Mexico on the beach somewhere and do some part time work, consulting or such.


 
If nothing changes the rest of mexico will be coming here in the next 2-3 years.


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

mikeh32 said:


> ohhhhh. mexico.....
> 
> do they even have rules?


 
Sometimes they don't have electric!


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

randomkiller said:


> If nothing changes the rest of mexico will be coming here in the next 2-3 years.


:laughing::laughing::laughing:
very good, consult B4T's web signature.


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

BuzzKill said:


> :laughing::laughing::laughing:
> very good, consult B4T's web signature.


No need to look any further than the news I read daily. 

1) Five kids sent home from school in mexifornia for refusing to turn their American flag shirts inside out.

2) The proposal to give amnesty to all illegals.

3) Over 420,000 illegals in Az alone.

4) Berkley Fire dept. top brass having the men remove US flags from their trucks so they don't offend any one.

5) The UCLA professor that is calling for a revolution by hispanics in this country to take over.

No need to continue, as a USMC vet. the first one turns my stomach.


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## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

randomkiller said:


> If nothing changes the rest of mexico will be coming here in the next 2-3 years.


 Hell, if nothing changes I was thinking of going down there. I can surely find some work picking fruit or landscaping or something.:whistling2:


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

mattsilkwood said:


> Hell, if nothing changes I was thinking of going down there. I can surely find some work picking fruit or landscaping or something.:whistling2:


 
I know a guy that has joked about "putting the band back together"
going down and taking over in a coup for years.


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

randomkiller said:


> I know a guy that has joked about "putting the band back together"
> going down and taking over in a coup for years.


ahahaha! It might take a battalion of marines to do it, if that.
I alway thought annexing canada was a good move too.


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

BuzzKill said:


> ahahaha! It might take a battalion of marines to do it, if that.
> I alway thought annexing canada was a good move too.


 
Taking over the government probably could be done at less than 
battalion strength, eliminating drug cartels would require time,
close air support, and plenty of funds for munitions. 
Not to say all involved wouldn't enjoy the target rich environment. :thumbsup:


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

randomkiller said:


> Taking over the government probably could be done at less than
> battalion strength, eliminating drug cartels would require time,
> close air support, and plenty of funds for munitions.
> Not to say all involved wouldn't enjoy the target rich environment. :thumbsup:


ahahaha, nice.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Josue, Although I am pretty much aligned, politically, with the persons on this forum, I still would like to advise you to get INSULATED tools. They will help you if a mistake is committed. If you are new to the trade you should not be allowed to work something hot. But even if it is turned off, you should still treat it as if it is hot.:thumbsup:


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

RIVETER said:


> Josue, Although I am pretty much aligned, politically, with the persons on this forum, I still would like to advise you to get INSULATED tools. They will help you if a mistake is committed. If you are new to the trade you should not be allowed to work something hot. But even if it is turned off, you should still treat it as if it is hot.:thumbsup:


RIV, you are a kind Christian soul.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

BuzzKill said:


> RIV, you are a kind Christian soul.


I would like to be, but I am still learning how to live down a rowdy past. Are you? I suspect you are, or you wouldn't have even asked.


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

RIVETER said:


> I would like to be, but I am still learning how to live down a rowdy past. Are you? I suspect you are, or you wouldn't have even asked.


 
Four ex wives, a collection of kids, various collections and hobbies...what is this rowdy past of which you speak?


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

randomkiller said:


> Four ex wives, a collection of kids, various collections and hobbies...what is this rowdy past of which you speak?


There is not enough ink in my computer to tell it all. When I first got out of the military I went to confession and told the priest that in the past 4 years I had done about everything possibly that was wrong; He asked if I had killed anyone, and that, I had not done, so he told me to go back out in the church and pray and examine my conscience because I was not as bad as I thought I was. I left and went home...I guess he was only hearing murder cases that day.


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## Josue (Apr 25, 2010)

Well here in mexico there are some rules: nothing as the ones in canada and us. I use canadian and us standards. Nobody respects mexican standars really if there are any jaja


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

Josue said:


> Well here in mexico there are some rules: nothing as the ones in canada and us. I use canadian and us standards. Nobody respects mexican standars really if there are any jaja


Rules or no rules energized circuits are just as dangerous in Mexico as there are in the US. The difference is our labor laws.

OSHA 1910.335 (a)(2)(i) When working near exposed energized conductors or circuit parts, each employee shall use insulated tools or handling equipment if the tools or handling equipment might make contact with such conductors or parts. If the insulating capability of  insulated tools or handling equipment is subject to damage, the insulating material shall be protected.

Notice is says "near", not just "on". Near in OSHA refers to inside the minimum approach boundary. 

The NFPA 70E is more restrictive and is enforceable via the general duty clause, but the OSHA requirement above has been enforced since 1981.


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## Josue (Apr 25, 2010)

*Mexican electricians*

I think 5% of electricians in mexico anre "good." other 90% are guy who are not afraid of electricity jaja and the other 5% are peple who really know what they are doing and usre canadian or us satadards. I´m from mexico and I tell ya that almost nobody uses standadrs and the electrical instalations are scarry. I follow canadian and us standars.


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## Josue (Apr 25, 2010)

MDShunk said:


> He's in Mexico. They're on the ICC rules, but I doubt NFPA70E is in force.


 I think 5% of electricians in mexico anre "good." other 90% are guy who are not afraid of electricity jaja and the other 5% are peple who really know what they are doing and usre canadian or us satadards. I´m from mexico and I tell ya that almost nobody uses standadrs and the electrical instalations are scarry. I follow canadian and us standars.


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## Trimix-leccy (Dec 4, 2007)

Insulated tools?
because my wife, family and soon to be born granddaughter are worth it :thumbsup:


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## CFine (May 20, 2008)

the ONly time you catch me working with my insulated tools is when I'm working on a circuit that can't be LOTO and/or a remodel. I also use them on panels and duplex's/anything and other things that are hand size with no disconnect past the panels. Lighting is different. but in the end if i feel there is a chance it can be turned on while i'm working on it i'll use the tools but i LOTO everything. I also treat everything as hot. but in general. what i listed above is then i use them w/o thinking. but other then that i'll pick and choose. they are expensive and in the end it boils down to If you can't turn it off and Lock it out do so, and Don't work on it Hot to be a "macho man". Safety First. You can't fix stupid, but electricity sure can.


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

Working hot should be treated like teen sex.

Advised against, but educated on the proper precautions.

They should start handing out free insulated drivers at work.


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

Frasbee said:


> Working hot should be treated like teen sex.
> 
> Advised against, but educated on the proper precautions.
> 
> They should start handing out free insulated drivers at work.


 
Yeah but unless the girl has a dad like me death isn't a part of the package.


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

Ahem, so today a journey and apprentice felt the effects of arc flash.

They were changing something out in the main gear, and word in trying to torque a nut, it slipped off and crossed two phases.

BOOM.

Power went off in the whole school.

They got lucky with little more than 1st degree burns a bit of missing facial hair.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Frasbee said:


> Ahem, so today a journey and apprentice felt the effects of arc flash.
> 
> They were changing something out in the main gear, and word in trying to torque a nut, it slipped off and crossed two phases.
> 
> ...


Safe to say that was only a 208 panel? I can't really see that being the limits of the injury in a 480 panel, unless they had pretty sweet electronic mains.


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## Voltech (Nov 30, 2009)

Frasbee said:


> Ahem, so today a journey and apprentice felt the effects of arc flash.
> 
> They were changing something out in the main gear, and word in trying to torque a nut, it slipped off and crossed two phases.
> 
> ...


I hate to hear stories like this. Makes for a good reminder to pay attention...


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

Frasbee said:


> Ahem, so today a journey and apprentice felt the effects of arc flash.
> 
> They were changing something out in the main gear, and word in trying to torque a nut, it slipped off and crossed two phases.
> 
> ...


And they were doing this live why??


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

Zog said:


> And they were doing this live why??


 
Because the school was in session and you aren't supposed to shut the power down when it's regular school hours and they were in too much of a hurry to do it the right way, there are names for guys like that and the filters here cut them all out


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> Safe to say that was only a 208 panel? I can't really see that being the limits of the injury in a 480 panel, unless they had pretty sweet electronic mains.


 
Pretty safe bet there, unless he left out the guy needs the nut surgically removed from his forehead


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

randomkiller said:


> Pretty safe bet there, unless he left out the guy needs the nut surgically removed from his forehead


Not sure why you guys think that, voltage is not a factor for the energy released by an arc flash. What if it was 15,000V? Would you expect that to be worse? 95% of the time the Ei on a 15kV system is much less than on the LV part of the system.


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

Zog said:


> Not sure why you guys think that, voltage is not a factor for the energy released by an arc flash. What if it was 15,000V? Would you expect that to be worse? 95% of the time the Ei on a 15kV system is much less than on the LV part of the system.


 
There is definetly in the energy released by higher voltage. Ever seen an old knock out hit 480?


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

randomkiller said:


> There is definetly in the energy released by higher voltage. Ever seen an old knock out hit 480?


I have seen much worse than that and do on a regular basis, part of my job, in fact I have the KEMA lab rented out next month to recreate a 480V arc flash incident for an injury settlement case. 

The energy released is a function of the available fault current and clearing time of the protective device, not voltage.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Zog said:


> I have seen much worse than that and do on a regular basis, part of my job, in fact I have the KEMA lab rented out next month to recreate a 480V arc flash incident for an injury settlement case.
> 
> The energy released is a function of the available fault current and clearing time of the protective device, not voltage.



Doesn't the proximity to the source (I.E. transformer) come into play when determining the AFC?


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

MDShunk said:


> Safe to say that was only a 208 panel? I can't really see that being the limits of the injury in a 480 panel, unless they had pretty sweet electronic mains.


I don't know the specifics of the gear I'll ask tomorrow.

And the school isn't finished being built yet.

Why did he do it live?

Because the foreman told him to do it live, but guess who got laid off today...


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

Frasbee said:


> Why did he do it live?
> 
> Because the foreman told him to do it live, but guess who got laid off today...


As much as I hate smileys this is deserving.

:clap::clap::clap::clap:


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

slickvic277 said:


> Doesn't the proximity to the source (I.E. transformer) come into play when determining the AFC?


Yes it does, your highest fault current will usually be closest to the transformer secondary unless you have some serious motor contribution. But sometimes that is a good thing for arc flash as the higher currents mean faster clearing times.


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

480 volts, 1200 amps is what I was told.


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