# Kitchen requirements



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

It is not all the receps in a kitchen. Only those that serve the countertop are required to be GFI protected. 210.8(A)(6).

Disposals, refrigerators, dishwashers, gas ranges, built-in microwaves, etc. are not included.


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## Chris Kennedy (Nov 19, 2007)

480sparky said:


> It is not all the receps in a kitchen. Only those that serve the countertop are required to be GFI protected. 210.8(A)(6).
> 
> Disposals, refrigerators, dishwashers, gas ranges, built-in microwaves, etc. are not included.


You read to fast. Look at the letters in the middle.

OP said other than dwelling units.

I see no exception.


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## gilbequick (Oct 6, 2007)

I don't have a code book in front of me for a reference, but also in a dwelling unit every receptacle within 6ft of a sink has to be gfci protected...no matter if its in a cabinet or not. Take your tape measure and going from the edge of any part the sink or water faucet if it reaches ANY receptacle within 6ft it needs to be gfci protected. Don't know about where you live but it's enforced here in NC.


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## gilbequick (Oct 6, 2007)

I don't have a code book in front of me, but also in a dwelling unit every receptacle within 6ft of a sink has to be gfci protected...no matter if its in a cabinet or not. Take your tape measure and going from the edge of any part the sink or water faucet if it reaches ANY receptacle within 6ft it needs to be gfci protected. Don't know about where you live but it's enforced here in NC.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Chris Kennedy said:


> You read to fast. Look at the letters in the middle.
> 
> OP said other than dwelling units.
> 
> I see no exception.


My bad! 



gilbequick said:


> I don't have a code book in front of me, but also in a dwelling unit every receptacle within 6ft of a sink has to be gfci protected...no matter if its in a cabinet or not. Take your tape measure and going from the edge of any part the sink or water faucet if it reaches ANY receptacle within 6ft it needs to be gfci protected. Don't know about where you live but it's enforced here in NC.


If they are, they are mis-interpreting 210.8(A)(7). That only includes laundry, wet bar & utility sinks, not the kitchen sink. Either that, or they are still stuck on the pre-1996 six-foot rule for kitchen sinks. And even if that's the case, receps for specific appliances were considered exempt.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

jamesvcampbell said:


> For kitchens other than dwelling units (article 210.8 (B)) the requirements for gfci protection states that all 15 and 20 amp, 125 volt receptacles within the kitchen area shall be gfci protected. Does anyone see an exception for receptacles that service appliances in the kitchen area?


Nope! Not even for refridgerators. This is a foolish lawyer and insurance driven code change IMO. Keep the suits happy.







gilbequick said:


> I don't have a code book in front of me for a reference, but also in a dwelling unit every receptacle within 6ft of a sink has to be gfci protected...no matter if its in a cabinet or not.


What 480 said!
I'd ask for a code reference next time they demand this of you.


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## kkelter (Nov 16, 2007)

The code overlaps though, the sink is on the kitchen counter-top so the receptacle still has to be GFI protected


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

What Gil is saying is that they enforce the GFI rule even if the receptacle is not serving the counter top.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Interesting.

My question to those inspectors would be: "So if the kitchen sink wall is backed up to, say, a bedroom, the bedroom receps would need to be GFId as well?"


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

Just because an inspector insists on something does not make it true.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

I agree. The gas range, dishwasher, insta-hot / disposal, refrig, microwave (permanently installed) doesn't need to be GFCI protected. I don't care if they're IN the sink.


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## gilbequick (Oct 6, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> I agree. The gas range, dishwasher, insta-hot / disposal, refrig, microwave (permanently installed) doesn't need to be GFCI protected. I don't care if they're IN the sink.


I've had to do all of that to keep the inspectors happy around here. In multiple counties too, not just one.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Gil, where are you located?

I am not being a jerk about this, but is your job to wire a job to code or to your own preference above code, or is it to make inspectors happy?


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

gilbequick said:


> I've had to do all of that to keep the inspectors happy around here. In multiple counties too, not just one.


Are these ACTUAL AMENDMENTS to the jurisdictions you work in? In other words, the NEC has to be adopted by the jurisdiction - state legislature, city/county council, etc. Often, there are changes, i.e.: amendments that are included. These are now part of the NEC for that jurisdiction.

For instance, Baltimore county formally amended the NEC to prohibit AL wires smaller than #4. They also have an official color code.

Are the jurisdictions enforcing something like this, or just making stuff up and pretending it's the code?

http://resources.co.ba.md.us/Documents/Permits/ElectricalInspections/local_elec_amends.pdf

http://resources.co.ba.md.us/Documents/Permits/ElectricalInspections/elec_color_code.pdf


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## gilbequick (Oct 6, 2007)

To tell you the truth, I don't know 100% that they are local amendments. I do know that this took effect when the 2005 code took effect, I took 2 code classes and both taught this 6ft rule. Others in the company at which I work also took a class by a different inspector and was also taught this. Sooooooooo I can only assume that is a local amendment.

Do I agree with it? Nope. Have I been failed for it? Yup, more than once. I'm not kidding when I say that I've had an inspector unscrew a fastened appliance in a kitchen and check the outlet. The appliance was a custom built in refridgerator. It was 5'-10'' from the edge of the sink at a downstairs bar (looked like a mini kitchen but had no cooking appliances), I remember because I thought to myself "there's no way he's going to pull out that fridge and measure". Yeah right! 

How the inspectors here do it is 6ft from a sink, no matter what. Even if the outlet is down and around inside a cabinet, doesn't matter. 

Almost forgot, I live in Charlotte, NC. The surrounding counties also enforce this "6ft rule"".



> I am not being a jerk about this, but is your job to wire a job to code or to your own preference above code, or is it to make inspectors happy?


Not really sure what you mean by this, but my job is to wire and install by code. 

Like I said, I don't agree with it all, but it is uniformly enforced around here so I go with it.


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## GREGNC (Nov 13, 2007)

gilbequick said:


> To tell you the truth, I don't know 100% that they are local amendments. I do know that this took effect when the 2005 code took effect, I took 2 code classes and both taught this 6ft rule. Others in the company at which I work also took a class by a different inspector and was also taught this. Sooooooooo I can only assume that is a local amendment.
> 
> Do I agree with it? Nope. Have I been failed for it? Yup, more than once. I'm not kidding when I say that I've had an inspector unscrew a fastened appliance in a kitchen and check the outlet. The appliance was a custom built in refridgerator. It was 5'-10'' from the edge of the sink at a downstairs bar (looked like a mini kitchen but had no cooking appliances), I remember because I thought to myself "there's no way he's going to pull out that fridge and measure". Yeah right!
> 
> ...


gil i live about 60 miles north of ya in the foothills howdy neighbor! the 6' rule must be an amendment in your county they dont enforce it around here


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Well Gil if as in your above example it was a wet bar sink your inspector is correct. If it is a kitchen sink I'd want to see it in writing. 

My point was that it is not the inspector's job to make up codes he thinks should be enforced. It is his job to enforce existing codes. 
I hear all the time about AHJs requesting, no, demanding, things that are NOT code. Yet no one bats an eye. Everyone just wants to appease the inspector. That is NOT how it is supposed to work.


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

Speedy Petey said:


> I hear all the time about AHJs requesting, no, demanding, things that are NOT code. Yet no one bats an eye. Everyone just wants to appease the inspector. That is NOT how it is supposed to work.


Well, unfortunately Petey it is how it usually works!

A couple of times I did more then just bat an eye. I demanded to see their made up rules that were not in the NEC. The inspectors just said, "it's not how we do things here and I'm not signing off on the permit." Every time I went back to the GC and was told the same thing, "just do it their way so this job can be completed." Probably everyone here has been in the same situation also.


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

Amen speedy, I challange inspectors every oppertunity I get. Most inspectors in california have no field experience in the trade thieir inspecting. They just took a class. If you have documentaiton that you are correct go to the building department. AND RAISE HELLL.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

I understand that Roger, but WHY does it have to be that way?
I do NOT accept the old "It's the way we do things" B-S. 

They know no one will fight them for fear of the job being delayed. This is just plain wrong, and is probably criminal to certain slight extent. 

I guess I am lucky that I can "ask" for a reference and they'll read it with me and explain their point. The inspectors I use aren't on power trips. 
This may be because we use third party inspectors and we can use any of several different agencies. The field guys also usually have to answer to higher ups. And the higher ups are typically very cool and will talk with you.

I have to admit. There are some local municipal building inspectors around here who are not this easy to deal with. One is downright vindictive.


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

speedy petey said:


> I have to admit. There are some local municipal building inspectors around here who are not this easy to deal with. One is downright vindictive.


That's all we have around here. Most ARE professional, and were electricians in the field before becoming inspectors, but not all. As you can see by the link, SOME actually have things in writing, but some jurisdictions don't want to make it easy.
I don't care (too much) what the requirements are, as long as it's official, in writing, enforced across-the-board, and we know about it in advance.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

JohnJ0906 said:


> I don't care (too much) what the requirements are, as long as it's official, in writing, enforced across-the-board, and we know about it in advance.


BAM!
All that writing for me and you summed it up in one concise sentence! :thumbsup:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Let me ask you all something:

If you were driving through a city, and the speed limit was posted at 45MPH, and you were doing 45, say the city cop pulls you over.

He gives you a ticket for doing 45. You would say, "But the speed limit is 45, how can I be speeding?", right?

If the cop says, "Well, I say it's 35 today, so here's your ticket....have a nice day.", you would make a beeline to the police station, city hall, your court date, wherever you need to go, because no police officer has the legal power to change the written law.

Same legal principle applies to inspectors. They are _in_spectors, not _ex_pectors.


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

480sparky said:


> Let me ask you all something:
> 
> If you were driving through a city, and the speed limit was posted at 45MPH, and you were doing 45, say the city cop pulls you over.
> 
> ...


I agree Ken, but there is no GC in your example with his arms folded saying, "just get this job done now, whatever it takes!"


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## Idaho Abe (Nov 28, 2007)

*It is in the book*

I am an inspector and if a EC questions my decision I encourage them all to aks me where it is in the NEC. If I cannot find it I am wrong. All inspectors get into their favorite things and sometimes try to enforce what they think the code should be not what it is. Good Luck


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Abe, thank you VERY much for these frank statements. It is refreshing to see this. :thumbsup:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

JohnJ0906 said:


> I don't care (too much) what the requirements are, as long as it's official, in writing, enforced across-the-board, and we know about it in advance.


I care, some things are not worth arguing, but I spent a long time studying and figuring out what little I know and I do not take kindly to inspectors, electricians or engineers that make up your own code. Don't explain HOO-DOO VOO-DOO theory to me and tell my that the way it is if it isn't.


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

Speedy Petey said:


> Abe, thank you VERY much for these frank statements. It is refreshing to see this. :thumbsup:


Ditto!


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## kapakahi (Feb 12, 2007)

I am an electrician for many years now. I hold several licenses and I am now also working a bit as an inspector. (I passed all three tests for national certification) In New York State it can be pretty tough. If a residential job meets the 1999 NEC reuirements (this applies until 12/31/2007) then you have to approve the job. If it doesn't meet the 1999 NEC requirements then you have to know if it meets the NYS Residential code. The Residential code makes reference to the NEC, however, the Residential Code takes precedence. It doesn't make the inspectors job easy when the work was done sloppy or you have a beligerant Licensee trying to get you to just sign of the job and "ignore" a few little items. Sloppy work and poor behavior (both not requirements of any code) are reasons for me to take a lot closer look at the work. Yes, it is not part of being an inspector, but we are people, also. We are intrusted by the municipalities to attest that the jobs are to a minimum quality. I enjoy inspecting work. Many years ago when I first started hiring people I became an inspector of sorts. Now it is more of an official position. I am happy to be shown wrong. If I am questioned concerning a code issue I am happy to comply and show the person in writing. GCs and ECs with attitude problems (anyone else for that matter), just get me more pissed albeit I don't show it. I just "look a little bit closer" that's normally all it takes to find something not in line. 
The jobs I do as an electrician, I make sure that they are 100% before going for an inspection. I want the inspector to be happy and I enjoy showing off quality work I am proud of. As an insepctor I guess I expect that of other ECs. I have run into sloppy work that is with-in code. I talk with the guys, try to impress upon them a bit, but if it meets code it has to pass. The extra time I put into these inspections is my personal committment to the industry. I don't make more money from spending an extra ten minutes with an electrician but I enjoy my time and normally the electrician also is happy. 
My two bits inspecting Sullivan County to Rockland County, NY,


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

Kapakahi,

Sounds like you are a solid good inspector. Thanks for the input. Wish every inspector would emulate you.




> GCs and ECs with attitude problems (anyone else for that matter), just get me more pissed albeit I don't show it. I just "look a little bit closer" that's normally all it takes to find something not in line.


except for this.


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## kapakahi (Feb 12, 2007)

And sometimes, I guess I talk too much!


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

kapakahi said:


> And sometimes, I guess I talk too much!


Nope, you're cool!


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## [email protected] (Dec 2, 2007)

most inspectors in this area are real cool guys they will not bust your b**** unless you ask for it. i used to work for a guy that even if the job passed he would still find some way to piss the inspector off. i always kill with kindness and i have never had an issue with anyone in the 10 years in this field. i see most Of the inspectors more than once so when they come its HEY HOWS IT GOING HOWS BUISNESS ETC....... its more of a social thing 5 minuets looking at the job 15 minuets talking makes a stressful job go a little easy sometimes


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

jamesvcampbell said:


> For kitchens other than dwelling units (article 210.8 (B)) the requirements for gfci protection states that all 15 and 20 amp, 125 volt receptacles within the kitchen area shall be gfci protected. Does anyone see an exception for receptacles that service appliances in the kitchen area?


 
210.8 (B) (2). GFCI in commercial/institutional kitchens.

NO exceptions. From the 2005 NEC.

What cycle are you on? thats the real answer.

edit: I see Alabama is on the 2005 NEC, no Ammendments I could see.


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## billsnuff (Dec 29, 2007)

*2005 handbood*

jamesvcambell, on page 77 of 05 handbook (other than dweling units) the only exception that i see is a location with a sink and a portable cooking appliance (corded microwave). otherwise it covers chuches, hotels, schools, dining halls w/kitchens, whether or not they (the outlets) serve countertops.

this was new in 02 and i don't have an '08.........we will begin with 05 in 08.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

kapakahi said:


> And sometimes, I guess I talk too much!


 


You don't talk too much but you sure can write one LONG paragraph.:laughing: 


If you break it up a little it's easier to digest.


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## skidrowpete (Dec 27, 2007)

section 210.8(b)(2) states ALL 15 and 20 amp receptacles in non dwelling kitcens begfci protected no exceptionns


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## ralph (Apr 6, 2008)

You guys that have electrical inspectors dont know how good you have it. Here ( savannah area ) we have building inspectors, they have very little knowledge of the NEC. 
All they care about is nail plates. Its absurd.
Some of my competition are totally oblivious to the code.
I went into a house that I bid, and the outlets were spaced every 15 feet. No disconnect from the meter to the panel. ( about 45 ' away )
Af ci i the bedrooms, outlets only, lights were not on the af. 
bonding of the rebar in the slab ----unheard of. ( I did it and got failed )
With all the hacking , these guys make good money .
I guess the point is ( beside me biching ) every area has different enforcment of the nec. Some more than others , obviously. this brings differnt interpratations, and along with that , different amendments.


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## tripbraker (May 12, 2008)

*in reference to kitchen counter plugs*

i have a job coming up soon , ive yet to do work in this town - a small house in tioga tx and ive been told that i have to have 1 circuit per every 2 kitchen counter plugs being gfci protected of course , i thought they were joking cause ive always put at least 2 circuits per kitchen with no more than 6 openings on a circuit , ive even hit the frig first and then to my first counter plug being the gfci plug , dining room as well . well they say no joke and its nec code , ive looked in the code book but cant find it , it was like starring at a cows face for an hour . would you all help me find the code references because i think its silly having 4 circuits for kitchen counter plugs


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## BryanMD (Dec 31, 2007)

tripbraker said:


> i have a job coming up soon , ive yet to do work in this town - a small house in tioga tx and ive been told that i have to have 1 circuit per every 2 kitchen counter plugs being gfci protected of course , i thought they were joking cause ive always put at least 2 circuits per kitchen with no more than 6 openings on a circuit...


NEC = 2 small appliance circuits (you know this part I think).
AHJ = whatever local/state amendments may be in effect.

Ask nicely, but insist the local inspector or plan review dept to show you **IN WRITING** what rule or code or law they believe they are enforcing. Do it very soon (for your own sake) and let us know the outcome.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

I agree. There is NO such code in the NEC. 
I truly hope they are not misinterpreting the two SA circuit code. That would be a joke.

This HAS to be a local requirement.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

I've heard of it before. Apparently, someone out there thinks a cook will want to rotesserie, broil, whip, bake, toast, perk, braise, and slow-cook while making Belgin Waffles all at the same time...


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

We did a kitchenette for an insurance business that had two refrigerators, a counter top ice cream freezer, two commercial coffee makers, an espresso machine, two microwaves, a bagel toaster (chain drive), and a hot cheese machine. They also had a regular cafeteria in the basement of the building and a coffee shop and a theater style snack bar on another floor. Guess that's why the US has that obesity problem.


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## skidrowpete (Dec 27, 2007)

*gfic in kitchens*

all no exceptions 15 and 20 amp i20 volt receptacles in commercial (non residential) kithens will be gfic protected


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## kapakahi (Feb 12, 2007)

In *Non-dwelling units'* kitchens all receptacles have to be GFI Protected. As was listed several times by members:
In the 2005 NEC Codebook it is 
210.8(B)(2):*
210.8(B) Other Than Dwelling Units​*​​​​All 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere
receptacles installed in the locations specified in (1) through (5) shall have ground-fault
circuit-interrupter protection for personnel:​
(1) Bathrooms​(2) Commercial and institutional kitchens — for the purposes of this section, a
kitchen is an area with a sink and permanent facilities for food preparation and
cooking​(3) Rooftops​(4) Outdoors in public spaces—for the purpose of this section a public space is
defined as any space that is for use by, or is accessible to, the public​_Exception to (3) and (4): Receptacles that are not readily accessible and are supplied
from a dedicated branch circuit for electric snow-melting or deicing equipment shall be
permitted to be installed in accordance with the applicable provisions of Article 426.​_(5) Outdoors, where installed to comply with 210.63​*(C) Boat Hoists​*​​​​Ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel shall be
provided for outlets that supply boat hoists installed in dwelling unit locations and
supplied by 125-volt, 15- and 20-ampere branch circuits.

There you have it. You guys just have to read the codebook. The above is taken from the 2005 NEC. No change really from the 2002. The 2008 is also the same. ​


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## Inspector Grump (Jun 4, 2008)

Chris Kennedy said:


> You read to fast. Look at the letters in the middle.
> 
> OP said other than dwelling units.
> 
> I see no exception.


 That is what gives us inspectors a bad name. You have to read all the words in the code article.


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## TheElectricalGuru (Jan 16, 2007)

Speedy Petey said:


> Gil, where are you located?
> 
> I am not being a jerk about this, but is your job to wire a job to code or to your own preference above code, or is it to make inspectors happy?


LoL...I prefer them to make me HAPPY...knowing that what I tell them to do IS code.....most " QUALITY" inspectors will supply code references on all tickets and be able to explain WHY they are wanting something done.


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

TheElectricalGuru said:


> LoL...I prefer them to make me HAPPY...knowing that what I tell them to do IS code.....
> 
> This comment asks me to question your intentions (with respect!). Power,control, the tone sets me uneasy.
> 
> ...


This statement gives me great comfort. MOST Inspectors meet this.:thumbsup:
However some..... Power and control!!!

This is why "WE" must read and be educated.
Always be Informed and question Authority.:thumbsup:


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## Inspector Grump (Jun 4, 2008)

:notworthy:
If someone requests the code article, I will copy from the code disk and fax it to them. An inspector, who will not, either does not know the code, or own a code book! In New Jersey we are required to supply this information if requested. I will do this for anyone who asks, not only in the towns I inspect in or not.


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## heel600 (Oct 31, 2007)

Inspector Grump said:


> :notworthy:
> If someone requests the code article, I will copy from the code disk and fax it to them. An inspector, who will not, either does not know the code, or own a code book! In New Jersey we are required to supply this information if requested. I will do this for anyone who asks, not only in the towns I inspect in or not.


Whether you're required to or not, doesn't change that a lot of inspectors have a GOD complex, and don't.

I failed an inspection for back-feeding a breaker (yeah yeah, I know), but not only did the inspector not give an article, he didn't even give a sticker. It's been over a week. He said he'd call to give an article number.

This after I called the state on him. He actually told me that he was waiting on a call from the state, to find out what article to give me for his failed sticker. So he failed me, but didn't know why


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## Inspector Grump (Jun 4, 2008)

If he can not read, how can he dial a phone. He needs a good kick in the ___ Larry


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

heel600 said:


> I failed an inspection for back-feeding a breaker (yeah yeah, I know), but not only did the inspector not give an article, he didn't even give a sticker. It's been over a week. He said he'd call to give an article number.


Was the breaker bolted in ?


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## heel600 (Oct 31, 2007)

william1978 said:


> Was the breaker bolted in ?


No it wasn't. Yes I know it has to be. That's not the point.

This is the inpector that failed my pool because the lights were too deep, etc etc, and ate crow when I called the state, and they told him I ws right, and he was wrong. then he STILL wouldn't pass me. I had to call enforcement, and that got things passed that time.

The inspector also made the pool guy take the panel covers off the live panels. 1st, I think it's his job. If he'd ask me, I'd do it, but asking a layman to do it is hazardous!


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## Inspector Grump (Jun 4, 2008)

Maybe more contractors should call the state on the so called “god inspectors”. They give all inspectors a bad name. Never forget the inspectors are only as good as there supervisors. When you take time to talk about a problem and explain it to a contractor why and don’t talk down to them, your job is easy.


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## Chryse (Jan 22, 2010)

This is from Mecklenburg County, NC.
http://www.charmeck.org/Departments/LUESA/CodeEnforcement/Electrical/GFCI+Information.htm

http://www.charmeck.org/NR/rdonlyre...l66p2b6fpodkehd5w56ddsvyjdkwxfutf/QAGFCIs.pdf


This is where NC is getting their information from with regards to GFCI


1987 NEC 
15-20 Amp 120 volt Receptacle Requirements: 
Basements, kitchen sinks (within 6 foot of), 
boathouses, commercial garages. ​
Other requirements: High-pressure spray washers, hydro-massage bathtubs


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Chryse said:


> This is from Mecklenburg County, NC.
> http://www.charmeck.org/Departments/LUESA/CodeEnforcement/Electrical/GFCI+Information.htm
> 
> http://www.charmeck.org/NR/rdonlyre...l66p2b6fpodkehd5w56ddsvyjdkwxfutf/QAGFCIs.pdf
> ...



:confused1::tank::drink:


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