# Good Union needed here



## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

I normally don't side with Unions because of the attitudes I have seen, but reading this article reminded me of why they were formed.

If there is a Union in this plant (the one in the article), where are they? If not, then they really need one. The employer is just wrong.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/10_12/b4171057616634.htm


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Large company's bullying and intimidating employees.No! Say it ain't true! I thought this type of thing never happens.I thought unions aren't needed anymore.Oh,I know these employees that don't like how there being treated should just quit right.
Of course the management has the employees best interest in mind.I mean why on earth would they want a union?With organizations like OSHA and the DOL and the NLRB employees should be protected right?:whistling2:


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## Silversam (Feb 8, 2010)

We had a wonderful Business Agent here in NYC years ago named Bill Gillen. He used to say:

"The best job in the world to have is to work Non-Union for a Prince."
"The worst job in the world to have is to work Non-Union for a Pr*ck."
"Unfortunately there are so many more Pr*cks then Princes in this world and that's why they invented Unions."

R.I.P. Bill. You were a class act.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Silversam said:


> We had a wonderful Business Agent here in NYC years ago named Bill Gillen. He used to say:
> 
> "The best job in the world to have is to work Non-Union for a Prince."
> "The worst job in the world to have is to work Non-Union for a Pr*ck."
> ...


There are good and bad people in all walks of life, open shops have good management and prick workers, open shops have prick management and good workers, same goes for unions and anything else. 

No one segment of society has a lock on being virtuous and no one group is comprised solely of pricks.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

slickvic277 said:


> Large company's bullying and intimidating employees.No! Say it ain't true! I thought this type of thing never happens.


I don't see where this happened in that article. Some employees who were injured were also given time off for rules violations. Most reasonable men realize that a great many work related injuries have a rules violation as their root cause. Is the employer supposed to take pity on you, because you are injured, and not write you up also?


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

brian john said:


> No one segment of society has a lock on being virtuous and no one group is comprised solely of pricks.


This is why we have the law and contracts??


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

miller_elex said:


> This is why we have the law and contracts??


YEP and government agencies that typically are sitting on their fat arse's


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> I don't see where this happened in that article. Some employees who were injured were also given time off for rules violations. Most reasonable men realize that a great many work related injuries have a rules violation as their root cause. Is the employer supposed to take pity on you, because you are injured, and not write you up also?


In 25 years I have had 3 large settlements, one was dismissed.

Helper fell off ladder, after he was told not to use the top step, $52,000.00 Found out later we were the 3rd company (different trades) he had had large settlements with.

One was a weight lifter slipped a disk did it happen in the gym or work? much larger settlement than noted above.

One worked a switch hot against company policy and without PPE which all men are furnished. $8,000.00 settlement plus all medical. Burnt his finger than it got infected because he did not do as told by doctor.

One was addicted to drugs and tried to say it was work related, she lost of course I had $25,000.00 in lawyer fees.

You get hurt on one of my jobs and it is legit I want you to get everything you should get and need to get to you back to work. But I have seen abuses on both sides.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

brian john said:


> Helper fell off ladder, after he was told not to use the top step, $52,000.00 Found out later we were the 3rd company (different trades) he had had large settlements with...


People like that should just kill themselfs and do society a favor.


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

We had a guy quit because he wasn't getting journeyman pay. But then he came back and claimed he got injured, as soon as they told him he would have to take a drug test he wasn't so injured anymore.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

MY rigger had a guy go out with a bad back, a very common injury for riggers and my friend did not question they guys injury, the guy was due for total disability. 

Months later, one of my friends superintendents was pulling out of his shop and low and behold, there is the injured guy working on a fiber optic ground crew in a ditch. Old cell phone camera and a call to the insurance company. This guy is facing fraud charges. 

But another guy I worked with jumped off a transformer (not sure of the height) someone had taken his ladder and the foreman told him to jump down, he hit the ground, slipped sprained his ankle and fell hurting his back. He never worked in the trade again due to his injuries and the company and the companies insurance company fought him every inch of the way (union contractor). Year later even after he was awarded a monetary settlement I was told the insurance company was withholding any payments appealing the case.

So it goes both ways as in most things


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## Charlie K (Aug 14, 2008)

brian john said:


> In 25 years I have had 3 large settlements, one was dismissed.
> 
> Helper fell off ladder, after he was told not to use the top step, $52,000.00 Found out later we were the 3rd company (different trades) he had had large settlements with.
> 
> ...


Well said. Thanks Brian. The ones that claim they are hurt and try to rob you blind. I had to go to hearings on several guys on my crew over time. It is amazing what the investigators come up with. On another note I was injured in a fall 5+ years ago. I broke my knee. After 3 operations I was told to take disability pension, it was as much as my takehome pay. I chose to go back to work after 7 months. I have a hard time getting around sometimes. When it gets real bad I go in the office and estimate for awhile.

Charlie


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Charlie K said:


> Well said. Thanks Brian. The ones that claim they are hurt and try to rob you blind. I had to go to hearings on several guys on my crew over time. It is amazing what the investigators come up with. On another note I was injured in a fall 5+ years ago. I broke my knee. After 3 operations I was told to take disability pension, it was as much as my takehome pay. I chose to go back to work after 7 months. I have a hard time getting around sometimes. When it gets real bad I go in the office and estimate for awhile.
> 
> Charlie


When you say you broke you knee what breaks the knee cap?


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## TheRick (Apr 13, 2008)

slickvic277 said:


> Large company's bullying and intimidating employees.No! Say it ain't true! I thought this type of thing never happens.I thought unions aren't needed anymore.Oh,I know these employees that don't like how there being treated should just quit right.
> Of course the management has the employees best interest in mind.I mean why on earth would they want a union?With organizations like OSHA and the DOL and the NLRB employees should be protected right?:whistling2:


So let me get this right........a company lays out clear rules and guidelines pertaining to safety, with consequences for violations of said rules. An employee of the company violates these rules, so the company enforces the consequences, and they are in the wrong?!?!?! :blink:

Sorry, I don't follow your logic.

The rules are there to PREVENT injuries........follow the rules or suffer the consequences, meaning both injury and punishment for violating the rule. If an employee is scared to report an injury that means there is a pretty good chance he broke one of the safety rules in place and fears the punishment he knows will follow.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

miller_elex said:


> People like that should just kill themselfs and do society a favor.


But typically they just find a union to join. :laughing:

_*I am not saying all union members are like that at all*_, but the protections of a union definitely attract the slackers of the world.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> But typically they just find a union to join. :laughing:
> 
> _*I am not saying all union members are like that at all*_, but the protections of a union definitely attract the slackers of the world.



Oh Bob............:laughing:


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

I don't know if cat is going to the extreme or not, but based on my own experience, I do believe that far too many "accidents" are really not accidents, but just stupidity and carelessness on the part of the "victims", so it is hard for me to condemn behaviour which scares the employees and puts them in fear for their jobs, because maybe that is exactly what is needed to prevent idiots from 1) hurting themselves for no good reason and 2) after hurting themselves, sucking money out of the system which could be better served somewhere else.


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## Charlie K (Aug 14, 2008)

brian john said:


> When you say you broke you knee what breaks the knee cap?


A stone the size of your fist that you land on.

Charlie


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

jrannis said:


> Oh Bob............:laughing:


:laughing:


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

*Question for Union members*

Since I've not been in a Union, I am curious. Does the Union offer any safety training? Does the Union act like a parter with the Company to prevent accidents and to discipline employees that violate safety policies?

In other words, does the Union ever become a partner with the Company or is it mostly just an adversarial relationship when it comes to safety issues? Will the Union ever side with the Company if the employee violates safety rules?


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

For those posting about the slackers and company rights to enforce safety rules, I mostly agree with you. But this quote from the article makes me think the Company is getting a bit too strong-armed.


> According to data compiled by the U.S. Labor Dept. it is more dangerous to serve coffee at Starbucks or count currency as a bank teller than it is to maneuver massive metal slabs at AK Steel.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

hardworkingstiff said:


> For those posting about the slackers and company rights to enforce safety rules, I mostly agree with you. But this quote from the article makes me think the Company is getting a bit too strong-armed.


More than likely, they're underreporting too!

Tell you a story... I once worked for an electronic component manufacturer that dramatically reduced their reportable injuries over a 5-year period. It was all smoke and mirrors. They got everyone a short-term disability plan (like AFLAC). They had meeting after meeting to show how the short-term disability plan paid you better than if you collected workman's comp. 

This reduced the "reportable injuries" dramatically, because when a guy got hurt at work (where it was clear that he was not going to be disabled), he just said he did it at home and collected on the short-term disability policy instead... and made out pretty well, financially.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Another typical Electrician talk thread.Here's where I stand.If someone is knowingly breaking safety protocol and putting themselves in danger then they deserve what they get.Safety should be YOUR own number one responsibility.BUT there's another side to this coin.

The reality of the situation is this;accidents can and do happen even when procedure is followed to the letter.Many companies preach safety but in the real world there bent on speed and profit that they knowingly "bend" the rules and FORCE people through fear of losing there jobs to do things that they are not comfortable with.(I know,I know,all the big shots here would just walk away and quit if that was the case).

Management has been doing this type of thing for years.We even see it on these larger job sites all around the country.Safety monitors walking around just waiting to write somebody up for a violation.But towards the end of the job when EVERYONE is balls to the wall to get done on time those safety monitors slowly disappear and the procedure goes out the window.

Here's an example of a big company disregarding the safety of it's employees.
http://www.changetowin.org/connect/2007/08/osha_slaps_cintas_with_histori.html

Here's another.
http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=NEWS_RELEASES&p_id=16674

and another.
http://www.allbusiness.com/labor-employment/workplace-health-safety/6559931-1.html

In all three instances the employer had repeat or willful violations.Knowingly putting employees at risk.Why?For Profit.
All the nay-sayers here on this site will say things like "people need to be accountable for themselves" and "where's the personal responsibility" and "If you don't like it quit".

Well here's the reality,people have mouths to feed,bills to pay,a mortgage,car payment,kids in school and all the responsibility that comes with raising a family and living a normal middle class life.Good paying jobs are hard to come by,especially in recent years.That's why people knowingly work in places were there safety is constantly disregarded by management,and this is why company's constantly put people at risk.They have you over a barrel and they know it. 

Well I'm ready for everyone to attack me now.I think I like it,like those weirdo's who cut themselves.......


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Of course there are companies who disregard safety and encourage unsafe work practices. I think you could go on the 'net and find thousands of examples of that. That doesn't seem to be the case in the article referenced in the opening post, is all. There are at least as many work related injuries (probably more) caused by the employee disregarding the rules than there are companies forcing or encouraging the violation of safety rules and laws. 

My whole point is this... if you knowingly violate safety rules and get yourself hurt, don't be surprised if you get a suspension or are relieved of your job also.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

slickvic277 said:


> Well I'm ready for everyone to attack me now.I think I like it,like those weirdo's who cut themselves.......


No attack from me, there is culpability on both sides (employer and employee). The way the insurance and OSHA are set up encourage companies to hide safety claims. 



MDShunk said:


> My whole point is this... if you knowingly violate safety rules and get yourself hurt, don't be surprised if you get a suspension or are relieved of your job also.


As it should be. The problem is when a real injury gets covered up and pushed under the rug.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

hardworkingstiff said:


> Since I've not been in a Union, I am curious. Does the Union offer any safety training? Does the Union act like a parter with the Company to prevent accidents and to discipline employees that violate safety policies?
> 
> In other words, does the Union ever become a partner with the Company or is it mostly just an adversarial relationship when it comes to safety issues? Will the Union ever side with the Company if the employee violates safety rules?



Each and every union is different.We have OSHA 30 training as part of our apprenticeship.We have a NFPA 70E as a class and we also have a safety director with a safety department.

We have an accident reporting system as well.

They will investigate the accident to find the cause,the remedy,and who is at fault.

There is also clear language in the contract stating safety protocol.
If a member is in violation he could be brought up on charges(although usually not unless there negligence caused others to be put in danger or injured).The same goes for signatory contractors.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Bob Badger said:


> But typically they just find a union to join. :laughing:


I joined up because I blew out me knee on the job too. It left me feeling completely worthless like a weakling for three months. Where I worked had no health package of any kind. Worker's comp kicked in, but I had seen the writing on the wall.

Unless you too have felt like you will have to find another line of work, then you don't know the feeling.

My knee healed to 100%, and I had made the best decision in my life. Even though I never use my benefits, I am grateful they are there.


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

slickvic277 said:


> Management has been doing this type of thing for years.We even see it on these larger job sites all around the country.


How can a young guy like yourself possibly know what types of things have been going on for years. I seriously doubt you have any first hand knowledge of this at all, let alone have worked on job sites all around the country.

Who is We?

Are you a spokesman for something with some type of credible backing, or do you have a mouse in your pocket?


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## The Estimator (Nov 19, 2009)

brian john said:


> When you say you broke you knee what breaks the knee cap?


Brian,
I do not know if you remember, but back in the 1970's there was a guy who worked for H.P.Foley. He faked an injury and was suing for big dollars and won. A year later he was on the front page of the Washington Post quarterbacking his
football team. Thankfully he lost everything.


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## regieleeroth (Feb 27, 2009)

I've worked at an AK Steel mill. You will not meet a more miserable, stressed-out workforce as far as the plant personnel goes. While working for a subcontractor there, we were explicitly told to bring ALL injuries to the outfit we were working for. "Keep it in our house."

Apparently, one of their guys a few months prior had whacked his thumb with a hammer. He reported it, thinking, "Hey, electricians need their digits, right?" 

The mill sent up a safety audit team to view the site of the accident, reviewed the materials being used, photographed everything (hammer included, I swear to God), and had a meeting with the subcontractor's supervision to brainstorm on ideas of how to avoid these types of accidents.

It was not only overkill, it was very hostile to the sub. I'm CERTAIN that the implied message was "Do not report this stuff again. Or we will get someone else in here." -- this to a contractor who's been in that mill for 30 years or so.

If you were lucky enough to have a plant guy talk to you, they would all say to a man that their safety rules are outlandish, and they are looking for ways to fire you... not correct the situation and keep you. Fire you.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Dnkldorf said:


> How can a young guy like yourself possibly know what types of things have been going on for years. I seriously doubt you have any first hand knowledge of this at all, let alone have worked on job sites all around the country.
> 
> Who is We?
> 
> Are you a spokesman for something with some type of credible backing, or do you have a mouse in your pocket?



You should change your name to *DSHBAG*.

All anyone has to do is go on any message board that has anything to do with construction or talk to,work with or know anyone who has been in any way shape or form any type of large scale construction projects to understand what goes on.

When I say "WE" it's fairly obvious that I'm talking about the construction industry,but I guess that flew way over your head.

What a half ass so-called electrician such as yourself fails to realize is when your part of a large,organized,well documented and involved organization such as the IBEW(or any other large construction organization,union or not for that matter),You have access to statistics,documentation,and past history.

How many LARGE scale projects have you been on? How many safety committees have you been on or a part of? Have you ever been in a refinery,chemical plant,manufacturing facility?

You ever been on a job where the investors have there own safety company walking around watching everyone with a magnifying glass enforcing rules above and beyond what OSHA requires? Only to realize they made the job slow down to a halt and are now costing the investors money.Then all of a sudden the safety protocol is out the window and they want the work done yesterday.

I really doubt with your limited experience you can really have an informed and educated opinion on the safety procedures of dangerous conditions and hazardous locations.

What OSHA training have you had?
Have you had NFPA 70E?
Training on hazardous locations work practices?
Do you even own any PPE at all?

And if so please elaborate on your personal experiences in such situations and how you applied your safety training.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

regieleeroth said:


> I've worked at an AK Steel mill. You will not meet a more miserable, stressed-out workforce as far as the plant personnel goes. While working for a subcontractor there, we were explicitly told to bring ALL injuries to the outfit we were working for. "Keep it in our house."
> 
> Apparently, one of their guys a few months prior had whacked his thumb with a hammer. He reported it, thinking, "Hey, electricians need their digits, right?"
> 
> ...



I'm sure this type of thing doesn't really happen :whistling2:
Wait let me guess.If someone got hurt then I guess they deserve to be fired,Right?

I'm sure If we wait long enough *DSHBAG *will come along and correct you.Because it's obvious that you must be exaggerating.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

slickvic277 said:


> You should change your name to *DSHBAG*.
> 
> All anyone has to do is go on any message board that has anything to do with construction or talk to,work with or know anyone who has been in any way shape or form any type of large scale construction projects to understand what goes on.


You do not think many on these messages boards may have an ax to grind or are slanted in any way?



> When I say "WE" it's fairly obvious that I'm talking about the construction industry,but I guess that flew way over your head.


When you say we you may THINK you are talking about the construction industry as this word gives the user that he is backed by the majority whether he is or is not. Supply stats or say I think.



> What a half ass so-called electrician such as yourself fails to realize is when your part of a large,organized,well documented and involved organization such as the IBEW(or any other large construction organization,union or not for that matter),You have access to statistics,documentation,and past history.


Because he does not agree with you he is a half assed electrician, how doid you arrive at that?



> How many LARGE scale projects have you been on? How many safety committees have you been on or a part of? Have you ever been in a refinery,chemical plant,manufacturing facility?


So it is not enough that you take cheap shots at his work skills then you try and demean his work experience.



> You ever been on a job where the investors have there own safety company walking around watching everyone with a magnifying glass enforcing rules above and beyond what OSHA requires? Only to realize they made the job slow down to a halt and are now costing the investors money.Then all of a sudden the safety protocol is out the window and they want the work done yesterday.


In my experience and I have worked on VERY BIG JOBS, I can truly say I have never seen or heard of this.



> I really doubt with your limited experience you can really have an informed and educated opinion on the safety procedures of dangerous conditions and hazardous locations.


Supply your credentials, supply some evidence, supply some to back up what you are saying as truth.

Just seems your post is a bit heavy handed to me.


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## Charlie K (Aug 14, 2008)

Dnkldorf said:


> How can a young guy like yourself possibly know what types of things have been going on for years. I seriously doubt you have any first hand knowledge of this at all, let alone have worked on job sites all around the country.
> 
> Who is We?
> 
> Are you a spokesman for something with some type of credible backing, or do you have a mouse in your pocket?


I also use WE when speaking of the industry and MY Union.
I seriously doubt your ability as an electrician or owner of a company. I have seen some things you have posted. It speaks alot for you. As an example all tools are double insulated, panel in a generator enclosure, Duty cycle on welding cable. I think DOUCHEBAG is an excellent name for you.

Charlie


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## Chris21 (Nov 25, 2009)

brian john said:


> In my experience and I have worked on VERY BIG JOBS, I can truly say I have never seen or heard of this.




This is actually very common here in NYC. On the larger scale jobs at least. Not always as extreme as the OP stated but close to it.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

brian john said:


> You do not think many on these messages boards may have an ax to grind or are slanted in any way?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I've had disagreements with you on this forum and others in the past.And that's what they were,disagreements.*DSHBAG* feels the need to find and belittle each and every single post I make.Dissecting the parts he see's fit as to prove his point and to make his opinion matter of fact.

If my post comes off heavy handed,so be it.It was meant to be that way. 

I stand by what I said.I've been on jobs that were ran the right way and a joy to be on.I've also been on jobs that were nightmares.
I attacked no one in this thread.*DSHBAG* pulled out one part of a longer post for one reason to attack me.Fine,I'm a big boy and I can handle it,Just as sure he can handle me being a little "heavy handed".

It's an open forum and he has every opportunity to respond and prove me wrong.

My credentials are better then some and not as good as others.I speak on experience.I never pretend to be a know it all and I never have a problem asking a question when I'm not sure.

I do not have 20 years in the trade but I have been an electrician for 10.Long enough to form opinions and to speak about what I know.

I worked non union and I'm now union.I've been on both sides.
Out of High school I went to trade school.I've been to "continuing education classes" I've gone through a 5 year apprenticeship.I've taken extra classes on my own.I have OSHA 30.I've taken NFPA 70E,I've been to facility ran safety classes and meetings.

I didn't attack him or anyone in this thread but since he felt the need to pick at my post then I feel he should prove his background in this topic.


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## Charlie K (Aug 14, 2008)

The Estimator said:


> Brian,
> I do not know if you remember, but back in the 1970's there was a guy who worked for H.P.Foley. He faked an injury and was suing for big dollars and won. A year later he was on the front page of the Washington Post quarterbacking his
> football team. Thankfully he lost everything.


Erle, I wish my injury was fake. I also wish I got big dollars out of it.

Charlie


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

regieleeroth said:


> I've worked at an AK Steel mill. You will not meet a more miserable, stressed-out workforce as far as the plant personnel goes. While working for a subcontractor there, we were explicitly told to bring ALL injuries to the outfit we were working for. "Keep it in our house."
> 
> Apparently, one of their guys a few months prior had whacked his thumb with a hammer. He reported it, thinking, "Hey, electricians need their digits, right?"
> 
> ...


If you are a "glass half empty" type of person, I can understand why you feel that way. When I read this, what I get out of this is that a steel mill is a dangerous place. and AK takes safety seriously. So seriously, that if you are caught ignoring the rules, you get canned. I'm not sure why that's unreasonable. Sure, it probably would be miserable being on pins and needles all day, but that's better than being dead, I suppose.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

slickvic277 said:


> I didn't attack him


Oh, and here I thought calling some one a douchebag repeatedly was an attack.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> If you are a "glass half empty" type of person, I can understand why you feel that way. When I read this, what I get out of this is that a steel mill is a dangerous place. and AK takes safety seriously. So seriously, that if you are caught ignoring the rules, you get canned. I'm not sure why that's unreasonable. Sure, it probably would be miserable being on pins and needles all day, but that's better than being dead, I suppose.


I worked at Bethlehem in Baltimore MD, to me it was a scary place. But I must say they had safety as priority number one in a place that seemed to be looking for an accident to happen.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

slickvic277 said:


> I
> If my post comes off heavy handed,so be it.It was meant to be that way.



It seemed out of place coming from you.


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## Charlie K (Aug 14, 2008)

brian john said:


> I worked at Bethlehem in Baltimore MD, to me it was a scary place. But I must say they had safety as priority number one in a place that seemed to be looking for an accident to happen.


Brian, did you work there for some other contractor or for yourself? Yes Beth steel Sparrows Point was a scary place to work in. I have not had to go in there in 20 years and don't miss it.

Charlie


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Charlie K said:


> Brian, did you work there for some other contractor or for yourself? Yes Beth steel Sparrows Point was a scary place to work in. I have not had to go in there in 20 years and don't miss it.
> 
> Charlie


I was a sub to another testing firm. Looked like a place out of a scifi movie.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

brian john said:


> It seemed out of place coming form you.



Oh,Brian.Surely you jest.:laughing:


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## Charlie K (Aug 14, 2008)

brian john said:


> I was a sub to another testing firm. Looked like a place out of a scifi movie.


MET? Had to go in there on night when a silo collapsed. It contained scinter[sp]. The stuff rained down and collapsed steel decks, bent columns and destroyed everything in its path. We worked the night shift and it was miserable.

Charlie


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Charlie K said:


> MET? Had to go in there on night when a silo collapsed. It contained scinter[sp]. The stuff rained down and collapsed steel decks, bent columns and destroyed everything in its path. We worked the night shift and it was miserable.
> 
> Charlie


No for ITA, When I looked around quite a few buildings looked like they might collapse.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

brian john said:


> It seemed out of place coming form you.


Slick is one more union man who is fed-up with ignorant right-wingers who aggressively try to push the working man backwards.

The frustration is warranted.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

miller_elex said:


> Slick is one more union man who is fed-up with ignorant right-wingers who aggressively try to push the working man backwards.
> 
> The frustration is warranted.


And those "RIGHT-WINGERS are fed up with the other side, as in everything there are two sides to every story and the truth lies somewhere in the middle.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

I am in the middle. My folks with the gun vault and the buried conex are the wack jobs.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

miller_elex said:


> I am in the middle. My folks with the gun vault and the buried conex are the wack jobs.


that explains a lot


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

miller_elex said:


> Slick is one more union man who is fed-up with ignorant right-wingers who aggressively try to push the working man backwards.
> 
> The frustration is warranted.


But both of you set the union back decades with the crap that flows from your fingertips.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> But both of you set the union back decades with the crap that flows from your fingertips.



Like you would have any clue as to what either one one of us does or doesn't do for our union.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

slickvic277 said:


> Like you would have any clue as to what either one one of us does or doesn't do for our union.


If one of the main stated goals of the union is to organize all men engaged in performing electrical work, I'd say that your words are lost on many.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

slickvic277 said:


> Like you would have any clue as to what either one one of us does or doesn't do for our union.


I think the point is you may do a lot of really good work for the local, but here you seem to alienate more open shop guys that by most accounts seem to be very good electricians and might benefit from union membership and the union could benefit by their membership. 

As my mother use to say "You get more with sugar than vinegar."


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Bob Badger said:


> But both of you set the union back decades with the crap that flows from your fingertips.


The union needs not appease the likes of yurself. You are one more barrier to electricians setting the bar higher.

You would give-up years if progress on a whim to satify your lack of self-worth complex.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

brian john said:


> here you seem to alienate more open shop guys that by most accounts seem to be very good electricians


I am all for very good electricians signing-on. And I don't expect a very good electrician to sign-on with an organization whose members have no nuts and don't stand up to them who drive us backwards.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

slickvic277 said:


> Like you would have any clue as to what either one one of us does or doesn't do for our union.


I know what I read here, I do not have a clue what you do outside the forum.



miller_elex said:


> The union needs not appease the likes of yurself. You are one more barrier to electricians setting the bar higher.
> 
> You would give-up years if progress on a whim to satify your lack of self-worth complex.


Do you think you guys are helping to get more people to join or how to be more attractive to those in a position to mandate a union workforce on a project.

Forget about me, you don't want me and I am happy were I am. 

But there are others like me that find the childish name calling or personal attacks on people more than enough reason not to want to be a part of the group. And then there are customers who don't want that crap on their job sites. 

How can you not see this?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Bob Badger said:


> How can you not see this?



Just from what I have seen from union members that have a low opinion of open shop men. They are taught or pick up from other members that open shop electricians are not electricians, they are rats, low life's and therefore deserve no respect. They have a very narrow minded approach to open shop men and take a stance that hurts their membership (IMO), most of these men do not want anything to do with open shop as they see open shops as thieves, stealing their work.

Not saying MIller or Slick fall into this category just what I have seen with SOME IBEW members.


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## regieleeroth (Feb 27, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> If you are a "glass half empty" type of person, I can understand why you feel that way. When I read this, what I get out of this is that a steel mill is a dangerous place. and AK takes safety seriously. So seriously, that if you are caught ignoring the rules, you get canned. I'm not sure why that's unreasonable. Sure, it probably would be miserable being on pins and needles all day, but that's better than being dead, I suppose.


Not a glass-half-empty person as far as I can tell, but the "deal" with their safety protocol was made crystal clear within an hour of signing in and the orientation with the contractor. The headaches and consequences in reporting an accident were (and are) so entirely not worth it, the sub requested that we keep it in the family, which I have no problem with. 

If that skews the statistics, so be it. Companies like this are doing plenty of skewing on their own... and the Labor Dept. and OSHA are onto them.

Yes, rules are rules. The workplace is not our playground... tie-off, 30 min. firewatch, metatarsals and all that are necessary to both our safety and the company's profitability. But a safety panel discussion on hammering the slag off a weld?? :no:

And the hammer story didn't come from the lunch trailer rumor mill... that was from the owner/project manager (small outfit) within the first hour.


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## 134fisherman (Dec 13, 2008)

*I can see both point of views*

I have seen the fake injurys for the paid vacation,but I have seen a large general that is nationwide play their saftey rules to their standerds.For instance I had a two wire battery charger(no third ground prong pluged into a portable light/generator stand with a gfci built in,according to their rules you had to have a corded plug in gfci hence double gfci,I printed out the osha ruling on this for this general and he says our rules superceed osha,still wriiten up,rules state two write ups your off the job,hard hats,saftey glasses,orangevests?!,Inside a warehouse,but come dedline time it was ok for general to bring in 20 concrete trucks and fume us out at a30 foot celing,this is where I agree with slick vic,but fake injurys dosen't help anyone.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

brian john said:


> I think the point is you may do a lot of really good work for the local, but here you seem to alienate more open shop guys that by most accounts seem to be very good electricians and might benefit from union membership and the union could benefit by their membership.
> 
> As my mother use to say "You get more with sugar than vinegar."


I agree with you and ANY open shop electrician who would ever have any REAL questions or concerns about union membership,I would give them my undivided attention.I've been accused of drinking the "koolaid"
on this site but I have plenty of criticism for my union.There's always room for improvement.

As far as alienating open shop members on this site goes,It seams that the vast majority are self employed or contractors.They seem to have little interest in what the IBEW has to offer and attack union members at any given chance.There's been more personal attacks against union members on this site that have been unprovoked then the other way around.I'll always counter and engage any argument when I'm being trashed.



> Bob Badger;206542]I know what I read here, I do not have a clue what you do outside the forum.



What do you read here? Besides rebuttal to your often lopsided and stereotypical comments.It seems to me that the majority of the non union electricians on this site like to bash unions at a drop of a dime.But when Miller,LGLS,or someone like myself speak up in defense the whole Electrician talk non union collective jump in and go into attack mode.

Several times I've made posts in threads that had nothing what so ever to do with union vs non union and have had J-off anti union comments made to me.So excuse me if I'm a bit "heavy handed" at times.

(for the record I don't have a problem with it,that's what makes this site great)




brian john said:


> Just from what I have seen from union members that have a low opinion of open shop men. They are taught or pick up from other members that open shop electricians are not electricians, they are rats, low life's and therefore deserve no respect. They have a very narrow minded approach to open shop men and take a stance that hurts their membership (IMO), most of these men do not want anything to do with open shop as they see open shops as thieves, stealing their work.
> 
> Not saying MIller or Slick fall into this category just what I have seen with SOME IBEW members.


I agree with this also.It's one of my BIGGEST problems with the perception that union members have in regards to open shop electricians.I'm constantly arguing this fact with my fellow "brothers" in my own local,the fact is I've myself have been called a scab and a rat just for the simple fact that I was organized,despite the fact that I've gone through the locals apprenticeship.

The members who feel this way I do not consider the norm or the majority of my local.There not the people who matter and not the one's I want to reach.


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## gmbjr (Mar 25, 2010)

hardworkingstiff said:


> Since I've not been in a Union, I am curious. Does the Union offer any safety training? Does the Union act like a parter with the Company to prevent accidents and to discipline employees that violate safety policies?
> 
> In other words, does the Union ever become a partner with the Company or is it mostly just an adversarial relationship when it comes to safety issues? Will the Union ever side with the Company if the employee violates safety rules?


The union has mandatory OSHA 30 hour course in apprentice school, and the course is available to all through our continuing education program. Contractors are encouraged by the union to comply with OSHA and most have no problems with this. If their are questions on the job we have a safety coordinator at the hall who will come out and make sure everyone is informed. If you willfully violate OSHA rules I wouldn't bother asking the hall for help, as you deserve what happens.


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## gmbjr (Mar 25, 2010)

Victor!!!! yo bro, you know I agree with that, we've had that discussion many times. Alot of our union brothers have never worked non-union and are not aware that there are contractors out there that send their people for training, pay well and provide good benefits, and produce work that is comparable to that of a good union contractor. Fortunately that mentality is slowly but surely going to the wayside.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

slickvic277 said:


> There's been more personal attacks against union members on this site that have been unprovoked then the other way around.


Show me some.

If I say I think the union is wrong to picket.

That is not a personal attack.






> What do you read here?



What I read here is every time someone criticizes the union you or a number of members like you starts attacking the person.






> It seems to me that the majority of the non union electricians on this site like to bash unions at a drop of a dime.


You need to learn the diffrences between bashing and criticism. 

If I where to say all unions suck that would be bashing.

If I say it is wrong for unions to try to take over a company that is a criticism.






> But when Miller,LGLS,or someone like myself speak up in defense the whole Electrician talk non union collective jump in and go into attack mode.


Again, your idea of defending the union is calling people douchebags, rats or other nonsense instead of actually rebutting the comments made.



> Several times I've made posts in threads that had nothing what so ever to do with union vs non union and have had J-off anti union comments made to me.So excuse me if I'm a bit "heavy handed" at times.


And that happens all the time the other way, someone asks a simple question and some j-off says if you where union you would know that etc.

Grow some skin.


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## gmbjr (Mar 25, 2010)

just started here, gonna be fun.....Mr Badger, the real problem is that most if not all non-union guys are absolutely clueless as to how a union works or what goes on, and do not listen when the benefits of belonging to one are explained to them. There are a few who claim to be former union members here, but I do not believe most of them that I have seen so far, as by their posts it is clear they are clueless, which is not to say they may have just been clueless members, in which case good riddance.

The thinnest skin I have seen here so far has been the non union skin. Why not quiet down, ask some legitimate questions and really listen to the answers? It's not like we don't want to provide them. It is frustrating to hear the same BS lines over and over when they simply are not true.

I'll ask myself a question and answer it to get the dialogue started for anyone who is serious and wants to know. Oh, and by the way...in regard to the many references I have seen about not being able to get in the union: I bet most of those complaining never tried and just repeat it. If we had work, and the foremen and workers from joe blow electric came and said "hey we want to have a union vote", the arrangements would be made. It's how Slick got in. Now....

gmbjr, I'm a non-union guy who can't find work due to the economy. I can't afford insurance and am uncomfortable trying to moonlight because I have no training in running a business. What would be different if I were in the union? What would they do for me? signed, non-union dude

Well non-union dude, I am currently laid off since Dec. 14, so I feel your pain. Fortunately, we have a plan for such things in our particular union so I do not worry about losing my coverage. My brothers and I have paid into a fund to cover those who do not have the good fortune to have worked enough hours to meet the insurance contribution minimum. I hope this answers your question in a satisfactory manner.

See how it works now? 

Your turn.....


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

gmbjr said:


> just started here, gonna be fun.....Mr Badger, the real problem is that most if not all non-union guys are absolutely clueless as to how a union works or what goes on, and do not listen when the benefits of belonging to one are explained to them. There are a few who claim to be former union members here, but I do not believe most of them that I have seen so far, as by their posts it is clear they are clueless, which is not to say they may have just been clueless members, in which case good riddance.
> 
> The thinnest skin I have seen here so far has been the non union skin. Why not quiet down, ask some legitimate questions and really listen to the answers? It's not like we don't want to provide them. It is frustrating to hear the same BS lines over and over when they simply are not true.
> 
> ...


Maybe you should hang out here a little more before jumping in the middle of things. I work with unions all the time, I have a very good idea how they work in my area.

Yes I am sick of being called a Rat, or other BS just because I question the unions tactics.


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## gmbjr (Mar 25, 2010)

perhaps you should go back to my post and read the part where I said "most". I know there are some who know what they are talking about, but they(like you) are in the minority here. I didn't say anything about you, in fact you are proving my point about thin skin on the first post.....c'mon now, your smarter than that....


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

> Bob Badger;207372]Show me some.
> 
> If I say I think the union is wrong to picket.
> 
> That is not a personal attack.



My post wasn't aimed at you personally.Are disagreements are pretty civil.
And of course I disagree about picket lines.As long as there peaceful and non-violent.Those times have come and gone.The locals practicing violence need to take a step back and reevaluate themselves.There helping no one and hurting everyone. 






> What I read here is every time someone criticizes the union you or a number of members like you starts attacking the person.


Criticism is one thing.All out bad mouthing is another.








> You need to learn the diffrences between bashing and criticism.
> 
> If I where to say all unions suck that would be bashing.
> 
> If I say it is wrong for unions to try to take over a company that is a criticism.




I know the difference.But thank you for in depth example of the two.






> Again, your idea of defending the union is calling people douchebags, rats or other nonsense instead of actually rebutting the comments made.



I have never in any post called anyone on this site a rat,scab or other name because there non union.But I have been called lots of names on this site.

The only person I have ever called anything was DNKLDRF. He trolls the site looking for my post just to twist the parts he sees fit to try and prove some anti union point and he attacks me personally along with it.So one can only digest so much of his nonsense.He is now forever DSHBAG in my eyes.




> And that happens all the time the other way, someone asks a simple question and some j-off says if you where union you would know that etc.


Yes it does.But no where the extent it happens the other way.



> Grow some skin.


My skin is quite thick,any one with ideas like mine who sticks around this site as long as I have undoubtedly has thick skin.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

gmbjr said:


> perhaps you should go back to my post and read the part where I said "most". I know there are some who know what they are talking about, but they(like you) are in the minority here.


I think most of the regular posters to this subject know how unions work at least the ones in their area as there seems to be a vast difference of how things work in different areas of the country.



> I didn't say anything about you, in fact you are proving my point about thin skin on the first post.....c'mon now, your smarter than that....


and I assume you are smart enough to notice I did not respond by making a personal attack.


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## gmbjr (Mar 25, 2010)

Instead of being defensive, why not ask a constructive question? 

Kudos to both of us for not name calling. 

I agree things are done differently all over the country; however being laid off allowed me to peruse enough threads to come to the conclusion that most have no clue whatsoever what they are talking about. But we can disagree on that unimportant opinion, as neither of us knows for sure their backgrounds.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

slickvic277 said:


> My post wasn't aimed at you personally.Are disagreements are pretty civil.


Fair enough.



> And of course I disagree about picket lines.


It was just an example, don't get caught up in it. I know you have a right to picket and I support that right. But just because we can do something does not always make it the right thing to do. 



> Criticism is one thing.All out bad mouthing is another.


IMPO there is a large difference between badmouthing an organization and badmouthing a person.

I might badmouth the MBTA I still would not expect one their workers to start giving me crap about my opinion.



> I know the difference.But thank you for in depth example of the two.


It worked, I try not to write books.




> I have never in any post called anyone on this site a rat,scab or other name because there non union.


:laughing:





> He trolls the site looking for my post just to twist the parts he sees fit to try and prove some anti union point and he attacks me personally along with it.


I read the posts, I think you are being paranoid, he disagrees with many or most of your views for sure. I do not seem him making personal attacks agaisnt you.






> So one can only digest so much of his nonsense.He is now forever DSHBAG in my eyes.


That is a very mature attitude. 




> My skin is quite thick,any one with ideas like mine who sticks around this site as long as I have undoubtedly has thick skin.


Well I may have to agree with you on that one.


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