# Heat vent light best wiring method



## VELOCI3 (Aug 15, 2019)

Is this residential or commercial? If residential what type of dwelling is it?

They make 12-2-2 romex but IF romex is allowed in this location just use 2 runs of 12/2 


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## Lone Crapshooter (Nov 8, 2008)

Single family homes.
I do mostly industrial and fire detection but I am helping out a former coworker.
LC


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## VELOCI3 (Aug 15, 2019)

So it’s 240v with a switching contact or is the wall switch getting the full load? 


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Save yourself time and money and use what you already have - two runs of 12/2 romex. 

Run #1 
Black - fan
White - Neutral

Run #2
Black - heater
White - light (re identified, of course )

If you have one with a nightlight, subtsitute the second run with 12/3.


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## Lone Crapshooter (Nov 8, 2008)

No it's 120 volt Nutone, Browan and the switch is suppliedwith the unit


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## JoeSparky (Mar 25, 2010)

You technically can't run your neutral in a different cable and you can't parallel your neutral at that size either. 
For a vent/light/heat, run a 12/2 and a 12/3 romex. Arrange your switch legs so your neutrals are grouped based on how they are grouped in the fan junction box. Typically, the heater has it's own separate neutral, so that switch leg and the associated neutral would be your 12/2. The Fan and light tie them to the 12/3. Do not splice the neutrals of both cables together in the fan unit.
If your unit has a night light, Then run two 12/3 romexes. The light and night light will definitely share a neutral, so use one of the cables for those and the other for the remaining


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

JoeSparky said:


> You technically can't run your neutral in a different cable and you can't parallel your neutral at that size either.
> For a vent/light/heat, run a 12/2 and a 12/3 romex. Arrange your switch legs so your neutrals are grouped based on how they are grouped in the fan junction box. Typically, the heater has it's own separate neutral, so that switch leg and the associated neutral would be your 12/2. The Fan and light tie them to the 12/3. Do not splice the neutrals of both cables together in the fan unit.
> If your unit has a night light, Then run two 12/3 romexes. The light and night light will definitely share a neutral, so use one of the cables for those and the other for the remaining


Tape the 12/2's together and it won't be an issue. Why make more work for yourself? All you need is 4 insulated conductors and two runs of cable you already have accomplishes that. This is how I wire the HFL's now.


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## VELOCI3 (Aug 15, 2019)

Or run 12/4 MC cable and change the switch box from a plastic to a metal 4 gang. 


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

MTW said:


> Save yourself time and money and use what you already have - two runs of 12/2 romex.
> 
> Run #1
> Black - fan
> ...


What code do you follow that allows 2 seperate load conductors in a cable with no neutral?


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## JoeSparky (Mar 25, 2010)

MTW said:


> Tape the 12/2's together and it won't be an issue. Why make more work for yourself? All you need is 4 insulated conductors and two runs of cable you already have accomplishes that. This is how I wire the HFL's now.


That will physically work fine and never be an issue, however not code compliant. Hell, I have one inspector who pulled me aside after an inspection and told me he passed me, but i wasn't allowed to wire them with 2 romexes like I described above. I told him I wasn't sharing or paralleling neutrals between cables and it wasn't an issue.
More derp from his mouth...... I asked him where I could find this rule in the code book. He told me it was common knowledge :no: I said if it was common knowledge then you would have no problem finding it in the book for me :biggrin: I have a copy right there on my dashboard. Let me go get it. A$shole told me he passed me, don't push it and don't do it again:vs_mad:


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

joe-nwt said:


> What code do you follow that allows 2 seperate load conductors in a cable with no neutral?


The code of common sense. Tape the cables closely together and use plastic boxes. Don't tell me it's not acceptable because "code". I want to know what actual problems will be caused.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

MTW said:


> The code of common sense. Tape the cables closely together and use plastic boxes. Don't tell me it's not acceptable because "code". I want to know what actual problems will be caused.


If you can't see what problems would be caused, why use a plastic box? Why tape them together? Why not 4 THHN in a garden hose and call it a day?

I'm not saying some dangerous situation might arise, I'm saying it's against code. We tell everybody that comes along, "for professionals only" and then you ask that question?


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

joe-nwt said:


> If you can't see what problems would be caused, why use a plastic box? Why tape them together? Why not 4 THHN in a garden hose and call it a day?
> 
> I'm not saying some dangerous situation might arise, I'm saying it's against code. We tell everybody that comes along, "for professionals only" and then you ask that question?


So in other words you're confined in a box of what a code book tells you is right and wrong. I don't live in that world. Furthermore, your comparison is ludicrous. Using proper romex and boxes is not even close to using a garden hose. You're in desperation mode now.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

MTW said:


> So in other words you're confined in a box of what a code book tells you is right and wrong. I don't live in that world. Furthermore, your comparison is ludicrous. Using proper romex and boxes is not even close to using a garden hose. You're in desperation mode now.


While I was awaiting your response, I cruised the forum and noticed you seem to be on some kind of rampage here today.

Soooo, you win.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

joe-nwt said:


> While I was awaiting your response, I cruised the forum and noticed you seem to be on some kind of rampage here today.
> 
> Soooo, you win.


Not at all. You said something is against code, but failed to provide any reason why it's hazardous. So, it's hard to take your argument seriously after that.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

The junction box on these regardless of brands are always small. Anything you can do to reduce the number of conductors coming into the box is good. I usually end up (if I can) pulling a new circuit to it to handle the load of the heater. I guess it depends upon how big of a pain in the ass it is to get that circuit there. Usually I can talk people out of it for a second floor bath if there's no way to get a circuit there. It depends upon the circumstances, no heat, not enough heat, do I add a fan forced heater, do I wire in a forced hot water toe space heater, electric toe space heater, etc...


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## CTshockhazard (Aug 28, 2009)

I personally like ent and stranded for these, but will legally use multiple romexes in a heartbeat.




> *300.3(B) Conductors of the Same Circuit.* All conductors of the
> same circuit and, where used, the grounded conductor and all
> equipment grounding conductors and bonding conductors
> shall be contained within the same raceway, auxiliary gutter,
> ...


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

CTshockhazard said:


> I personally like ent and stranded for these, but will legally use multiple romexes in a heartbeat.


Good point, ENT is cheap, easy, a better install anyway, no question about code, and more readily available than the right NM cable, especially if you only need 25' or so. 

I think the code reference just about seals it up for me except what the heck is "an insulating wall" 



> (2) passing all
> the conductors in the circuit through an insulating wall sufficiently large for all ot the conductors of the circuit.


Edit: wait, never mind, you're going to pull both romex through a single connector and it's not an issue. The code reference seals it up, you can use two 12-2's if you want to keep things simple and move along.


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## VELOCI3 (Aug 15, 2019)

splatz said:


> Good point, ENT is cheap, easy, a better install anyway, no question about code, and more readily available than the right NM cable, especially if you only need 25' or so.
> 
> I think the code reference just about seals it up for me except what the heck is "an insulating wall"



Prob Bakelite or glasstic


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## Lone Crapshooter (Nov 8, 2008)

When I worked at the plant if our switchgear was in a elevated building and fed with single conductor HV cables or 480 in cable tray individual conductors would pass through a piece of micarta. That was to protect against the magnetic fields. 
Some large MV breakers(GE Magneblast and the Powellvac retrofit I know for sure)that have bushings through a ferrous alloy frame there is a slot between the bushings and then the frame is reinforced with a Aluminum plate. this too is done to prevent magnetic heating effect.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

300.20(B) Individual Conductors. Where a *single conductor* carrying
alternating current passes through metal with magnetic
properties, the inductive effect shall be minimized by
(1) cutting slots in the metal between the individual holes
through which the individual conductors pass or (2) passing all
the conductors in the circuit through an insulating wall sufficiently large for all ot the conductors of the circuit.

You guys have single conductor Romex? Outstanding!


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Now you guys are comparing this situation to cable tray and high voltage/high current individual conductors going to into switch gear? :laughing:

Can any of you just reason through a situation without resorting to this type of nonsensical comparison?


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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

MTW said:


> Not at all. You said something is against code, but failed to provide any reason why it's hazardous. So, it's hard to take your argument seriously after that.


Materials are readily available to do this correctly, they are not expensive, and it meets code.

Why take such a strong stance against something such as using 12/14-3 when it's required to pass inspection? Are your bids so tight you can't afford the one extra wire and labor to terminate? Do you also backstab?


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Cow said:


> Materials are readily available to do this correctly, they are not expensive, and it meets code.
> 
> Why take such a strong stance against something such as using 12/14-3 when it's required to pass inspection? Are your bids so tight you can't afford the one extra wire and labor to terminate? Do you also backstab?


Why use extra labor and material when I can use what I have already? That's foolish. Hunting down 12/4 or using ENT/flex and individual conductors takes more time and produces no extra benefit. 

You guys can keep arguing about it for the sake of arguing. I guarantee 99% of you would use the 2-12/2 method if you were doing this at 3:25 on a Friday and you had to make an extra trip to do it the "safe" way. So keep on arguing. I'll continue to do it this way.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

MTW said:


> Can any of you just reason through a situation without resorting to this type of nonsensical comparison?


Everybody understands that there's no safety or electrical issue running it in two separate cables. The question is if an inspector balks, can you win the argument. 

It's not electrical reality, it's practical reality. With @CTshockhazard 's snipping, you can win the argument, if you can win by being right. 

300.3(B) forbids it, unless 300.3(B)(1)-(4) allows it; 
300.3(B)(3) allows it, as long as you comply with 300.20(B), 
and 300.20(B)'s requirements don't apply, 
therefore it's allowed.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

joe-nwt said:


> I'm not saying some dangerous situation might arise, *I'm saying it's against code. We tell everybody that comes along, "for professionals only"* and then you ask that question?


I don't equate following code to being a professional, quite the opposite actually. A professional doesn't need a generalized and biased set of guidelines to follow in order to do his specific job in a safe manner.


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## farmantenna (Nov 22, 2012)

MTW said:


> Tape the 12/2's together and it won't be an issue. Why make more work for yourself? All you need is 4 insulated conductors and two runs of cable you already have accomplishes that. This is how I wire the HFL's now.


we don't do this because we want to pass inspection and move on.

There are lots of methods that are safe but code violations and you have to think about liability if anything ever happens because they're looking for anything to pass the claim costs.


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

Bring home a piece of 12-7 tray cable, boom done.:wink:


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

farmantenna said:


> we don't do this because we want to pass inspection and move on.
> 
> There are lots of methods that are safe but code violations and you have to think about liability if anything ever happens because they're looking for anything to pass the claim costs.


Oh right, because that one really worries me a whole lot. :no:

I've done it that way and will do it again, and I even passed inspection a few times doing it that way, as well as doing it that way for contractors I have worked for.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

460 Delta said:


> Bring home a piece of 12-7 tray cable, boom done.:wink:


We're not at that stage yet.


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## JoeSparky (Mar 25, 2010)

MTW said:


> I even passed inspection a few times doing it that way



Who are you? Peter's account has obviously been hacked. 
The real Peter D would *NEVER* pull a permit and get an inspection


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

JoeSparky said:


> Who are you? Peter's account has obviously been hacked.
> The real Peter D would *NEVER* pull a permit and get an inspection


Sorry, that was flyboy who always gets permits every time. :no::no:


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## JoeSparky (Mar 25, 2010)

MTW said:


> Sorry, that was flyboy who always gets permits every time. :no::no:


I do work for a plumbing and heating contractor like that. They even pull permits for replacement water heaters. Last job I did with them, one of their apprentices actually had hired his boss to replace his water heater. His boss had beat it into his head the dire consequences of doing it without a permit :no::no:
I've owned my house for 15 years. Plenty of work done. No permits other then the well guy who insisted. Town money grab:vs_mad: Nobody came to inspect.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

I did some apartments a few years ago that had HVLs in the baths and I was able to get the supply house to get me a 250 foot roll of 12-4 Romex, black, red, blue, and white. 

I sometimes still see 12-2-2 around and would use that if I had a few to do.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

I am not going to say you guys are ****ing overthinking morons but you are . The OP had a perfectly decent way of doing it and you all have to blow it up. 
Personally I would sell them an inwall heater and put in a separate fan and light. To this day I have never seen a decent combo bath fan.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

sbrn33 said:


> I am not going to say you guys are ****ing overthinking morons but you are . The OP had a perfectly decent way of doing it and you all have to blow it up.
> Personally I would sell them an inwall heater and put in a separate fan and light. To this day I have never seen a decent combo bath fan.


Says the straight white male.


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