# 12-2-2 nm



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Never used it and only seen it once at a supply house with an inch of dust on it. 

That being said, labor is always the most expensive component of a job by far, and anything that saves labor is worthwhile, IMO.


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## StriickeN (Sep 11, 2017)

Iv only used it once.... Never again.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Arrow3030 said:


> I hate it in new construction. It's okay for a renovation home run.
> 
> It's heavy, overpriced and I don't see it saving man hours for new construction. I'd rather have two spinners with 12-2.
> 
> Your thoughts?


My thoughts are: Bingo!


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## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

We don't have that in Canada. I wonder with the requirement coming that we must maintain a neutral in the switch box if there will be something on the market.

Our wires and ampacity charts are all based on "not more than 3 wires". I think if we had something here like that I would use it.

Cheers

John


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## Arrow3030 (Mar 12, 2014)

I thought it was a great idea until I paid for it and used it.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

It has come in handy several times, before everyone had the double pole AFCI's. Now that everyone has them, I don't really see the need for it.


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## bostonPedro (Nov 14, 2017)

I've never seen that wire set up in Romex. Used that wire set up plenty of times with MC 12-2-2-2 in commercial because it just makes more sense as we can box it in the ceiling and then run branch circuits wherever they need to go. I just dont see the value of using 12-2-2 Romex in a house because most rooms have their own HR's and very little is boxed plus most homes dont have drop ceilings. Pulling to an attic and box it I can see but not enough to buy a a reel of the stuff 
Where do you use it?


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

bostonPedro said:


> I've never seen that wire set up in Romex. Used that wire set up plenty of times with MC because it just makes more sense as we can box it in the ceiling and then run branch circuits wherever they need to go. I just dont see the value of using 12-2-2 in a house because most rooms have their own HR's and very little is boxed plus most homes dont have drop ceilings. Pulling to an attic and box it I can see but not enough to buy a a reel of the stuff
> *Where do you use it*?


They were only good for the short period of time when AFCI breakers didn't come in double pole by all the manufactures. Now they are a complete waste.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Low turnover means that it's going to be withdrawn from the market.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

I


Switched said:


> They were only good for the short period of time when AFCI breakers didn't come in double pole by all the manufactures. Now they are a complete waste.


If I were going to use arc fault breakers (I don't) I would rather have two different breakers than to have them on a double pole just so I could share a neutral. With a double pole, one tripping circuit kills the other good circuit. I would be pissed if someone slid that into my custom electrical install.

Edit: A cable with 4 insulated conductors and a ground definitely has its place, but you've got to know that the turn around on the price is going to be a while. I have used 12-4 MC as a dead-end 4-way in a hard-to-fish wall. 12-2-2 rx would be useful for the heat-vent-light fans in bathrooms.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

RePhase277 said:


> *If I were going to use arc fault breakers (I don't) *I would rather have two different breakers than to have them on a double pole just so I could share a neutral. With a double pole, one tripping circuit kills the other good circuit. I would be pissed if someone slid that into my custom electrical install.


You don't because they suck.

I may or may not use them....:vs_whistle:


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

RePhase277 said:


> I
> 
> If I were going to use arc fault breakers (I don't) I would rather have two different breakers than to have them on a double pole just so I could share a neutral. With a double pole, one tripping circuit kills the other good circuit. I would be pissed if someone slid that into my custom electrical install.
> 
> Edit: A cable with 4 insulated conductors and a ground definitely has its place, but you've got to know that the turn around on the price is going to be a while. I have used 12-4 MC as a dead-end 4-way in a hard-to-fish wall. *12-2-2 rx would be useful for the heat-vent-light fans in bathrooms.*




I'd think *14*-2-2 Romex would be your cable.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

telsa said:


> [/B][/COLOR]
> 
> I'd think *14*-2-2 Romex would be your cable.


Possibly, but if I'm going to buy an expensive roll of cable that I only use 10 ft at a time, I might as well buy a single roll of #12 because I can use it in 15 or 20 circuits. With 14, you pigeon-hole yourself into the 15 amp max bracket.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

RePhase277 said:


> Possibly, but if I'm going to buy an expensive roll of cable that I only use 10 ft at a time, I might as well buy a single roll of #12 because I can use it in 15 or 20 circuits. With 14, you pigeon-hole yourself into the 15 amp max bracket.


That is my reasoning for only stocking #12THHN on my service van... Not enough space to waste on #14's.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

I've no use for 14-2-2

But have gone 14-4 on all rope jobs

Less wire = more $$$

goodbye 14-3

~CS~


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

we used that stuff on a couple of hotel jobs (wood frame). can't remember exactly what for, but it was labor saving.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

If your game is Residential -- then it's the game of #14.

# 12 can't be used except by exception.

Too expensive, too slow.

Those with LOW production -- are excused.

&&&&&&&

The typical Residential player uses #14 like crazy -- until he is compelled to jump to #12 and up.

With LEDs -- this is even MORE true.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Arrow3030 said:


> I hate it in new construction. It's okay for a renovation home run.
> 
> It's heavy, overpriced and I don't see it saving man hours for new construction. I'd rather have two spinners with 12-2.
> 
> Your thoughts?


I can't figure it either way.

:surprise:


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

telsa said:


> If your game is Residential -- then it's the game of #14.
> 
> .



Lighting circuits in 14-4, jump feed & 3ways across the job w/ONE wire, less box fill, less time, etc

~CS~


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

chicken steve said:


> Lighting circuits in 14-4, jump feed & 3ways across the job w/ONE wire, less box fill, less time, etc
> 
> ~CS~


Do you get 14-4 easier than 14-2-2? I had to order a roll of 12-4 NM (bare ground, black, red, blue, white) as a job spec. The suppliers had plenty of 12-2-2, but 12-4 was a few days wait. In other words, it isn't in plentiful supply, nor is the demand for it high.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Switched said:


> That is my reasoning for only stocking #12THHN on my service van... Not enough space to waste on #14's.


I do the same. 

Hell, 75% of the pipe I install I just push 14-2 romex into anyway.


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## Arrow3030 (Mar 12, 2014)

12-4nm!? What's next, stranded romex?


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

So happy I don't do residential other than service calls...I have little need to stock anything other than wire nuts.


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## active1 (Dec 29, 2009)

wildleg said:


> we used that stuff on a couple of hotel jobs (wood frame). can't remember exactly what for, but it was labor saving.


They are using 10-2-2-2-2 now on the strip.
1 cable powering 8 rooms on 4 floors.
1 Circuit does parts of 2 rooms back to back, the other circuits rise up to the next floors.
Really common for all the power to go vertical up the floors vs across the same floor.
Lot harder to service it this way.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

RePhase277 said:


> Do you get 14-4 easier than 14-2-2? I had to order a roll of 12-4 NM (bare ground, black, red, blue, white) as a job spec. The suppliers had plenty of 12-2-2, but 12-4 was a few days wait. In other words, it isn't in plentiful supply, nor is the demand for it high.


I can get it, but i usually have to 'splain the dif to them 277

~CS~


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

It's R-B-B , but it _could_ be useful in B-O-Y

~CS~


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## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

X-2-2 or the x -4 have to be derated? If you have 14-2-2, is the rating less then 15 amps?

Cheers

John


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

good one John

well we start in the 90C column of (formerly 310.16) for that 4-6 80% in T310.15 

but then there's 334.80's thermal insulation ditty.....

~CS~


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## Arrow3030 (Mar 12, 2014)

X-4 only has 3 CCC's while x-2-2 has 4 CCC's. Typically.


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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

active1 said:


> They are using 10-2-2-2-2 now on the strip.
> 1 cable powering 8 rooms on 4 floors.
> 1 Circuit does parts of 2 rooms back to back, the other circuits rise up to the next floors.
> Really common for all the power to go vertical up the floors vs across the same floor.
> Lot harder to service it this way.


That sounds a hell of a lot harder to service.

We don't do much hi-rise or multi-floor buildings around here but I always thought standard procedure was to have a panel or panels on every floor just for ease of installation and maintenance? 

I always thought it was easier to run one feeder up than a bunch of branch circuits.


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## active1 (Dec 29, 2009)

Cow said:


> That sounds a hell of a lot harder to service.
> 
> We don't do much hi-rise or multi-floor buildings around here but I always thought standard procedure was to have a panel or panels on every floor just for ease of installation and maintenance?
> 
> I always thought it was easier to run one feeder up than a bunch of branch circuits.


It's kinda sad but it's more about ease of construction.
Some of the hotels have the electric rooms about 30 floors apart.
So a center mechanical floor could do 15 floors up and 15 down. With substations and electric rooms all up and down the wings in different rooms. Each room has countless panels. Panel schedules never detailed enough.

Looking for a tripped breaker can take 30 to 60 minuets.
Some time engineers just go in teams electric room to electric room opening every panel door looking. Not really paying attention to the schedule as it takes too long to read them all.

Only thing I seen on every few floors floor on each wing is IDF (Comm) rooms. Due to the old Cat 5 100m limitation. And now also used for wireless gear. Can only guess that's may be going away in new construction with all fiber.

The best design was panels in every sweet.
Palazzo had that in about 5,000 rooms.
The trouble was it was hidden behind a tall heavy mirror that was locked to the wall. They're not that heavy until you have to access every panel on the floor. Taking down and rehanging all day is no walk in the park.


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## John M. (Oct 29, 2016)

I agree, 12-2-2 can be cumbersome, but it some cases it saves the day. I had a remodel job where I needed two 20 amp circuits pulled 200 feet from the panel. That worked great!


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## B-Nabs (Jun 4, 2014)

John M. said:


> I agree, 12-2-2 can be cumbersome, but it some cases it saves the day. I had a remodel job where I needed two 20 amp circuits pulled 200 feet from the panel. That worked great!


What was the voltage under load at that distance? 

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


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## John M. (Oct 29, 2016)

It was a very light load, 24 VAC circuit.


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## Arrow3030 (Mar 12, 2014)

John M. said:


> I agree, 12-2-2 can be cumbersome, but it some cases it saves the day. I had a remodel job where I needed two 20 amp circuits pulled 200 feet from the panel. That worked great!


I agree. Okay for renovation homeruns


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