# Kitchen Counter top



## noarcflash (Sep 14, 2011)

What the code for an outlet UNDER a granite counter top, that over hangs 14" from the cabenit.

I remember something about 6" under counter top, but can't find the reference. The customer wants it lower.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

210.52(C)(5) _Exception to (5)_.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

noarcflash said:


> What the code for an outlet UNDER a granite counter top, that over hangs 14" from the cabenit.
> 
> I remember something about 6" under counter top, but can't find the reference. The customer wants it lower.


If that outlet is supposed to serve as a countertop outlet, it won't be allowed there


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## noarcflash (Sep 14, 2011)

I just read 12" or less from the countertop.
But why ? There must be logic around it.

It can be used for a vacuum, or for a lap top computer sitting on the counter top.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

noarcflash said:


> I just read 12" or less from the countertop.
> But why ? There must be logic around it.
> 
> It can be used for a vacuum, or for a lap top computer sitting on the counter top.


Countertop appliances have 2' cords. If the receptacle is supposed to serve the countertop, it has to be close. If you need one for a vacuum, you can certainly run another circuit down lower, and even put it under the 14" overhang, but not to serve the countertop.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

You may have a few violations. First if the counter overhangs more than 6" then the outlet will not be accepted as the required counter recep. Now if this is a counter that is not part of an island or peninsula then the outlet must be located above the counter.


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## noarcflash (Sep 14, 2011)

ok, I'll tell the home owner it's for a vacumme cleaner only, and not to use it for anything sitting on the counter top.

The problem with the code, is you can not restrict usage on a 120v 15a receptacle.

Maybe the kid likes to dry his hair at the kitchen counter.

Me personally, I plug my laptop in, and sit at the counter.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

noarcflash said:


> ok, I'll tell the home owner it's for a vacumme cleaner only, and not to use it for anything sitting on the counter top.
> 
> The problem with the code, is you can not restrict usage on a 120v 15a receptacle.
> 
> ...


But is it a required outlet? If so, simply telling them it does not serve the counter doesn't cut it.


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## noarcflash (Sep 14, 2011)

I'd have to take a picture to explain. part of the counter top sits against a wall, where there are 2 outlets, and wall cabenits. Then there is an extension of 6 feet going to the middle of the room, that serves as an eating area, with bar stools on both sides.

by one of the bar stools (under the counter), is the proposed outlet.

They do use that area for food prep. Kids homework, lap top, whatever.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

noarcflash said:


> I'd have to take a picture to explain. part of the counter top sits against a wall, where there are 2 outlets, and wall cabenits. Then there is an extension of 6 feet going to the middle of the room, that serves as an eating area, with bar stools on both sides.
> 
> by one of the bar stools (under the counter), is the proposed outlet.
> 
> They do use that area for food prep. Kids homework, lap top, whatever.


That is considered a peninsula and the rules in 210.52 for peninsulas apply. Can you install the outlet on the side where the overhang is not 14"?


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## noarcflash (Sep 14, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> That is considered a peninsula and the rules in 210.52 for peninsulas apply. Can you install the outlet on the side where the overhang is not 14"?


 
Then it is exposed and would destroy their cabinets. Actually the side where the countertop overhangs just 1" is all cabinet doors, so it's not even possible.

Putting it where the counter top over hangs 14" doesn't create an eye sore.

I guess it is a peninsula, because this area where it extends into the middle of the room is 3 sided. and the 4th side is against a wall.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

noarcflash said:


> Then it is exposed and would destroy their cabinets. Actually the side where the countertop overhangs just 1" is all cabinet doors, so it's not even possible.
> 
> Putting it where the counter top over hangs 14" doesn't create an eye sore.
> 
> I guess it is a peninsula, because this area where it extends into the middle of the room is 3 sided. and the 4th side is against a wall.


That is the def of penn. 4 sides would be an island. You are required to put an outlet there. I will say that I have had a few inspectors let me slide and put one under the 14" hang, as long as it was within 6" of the end. That is stretching the wording


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Time to educate the cabinet makers and teach them the requirements. I have my guys trained and I meet with them on the jobs. All you can due is ask the inspector for leniency.


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## noarcflash (Sep 14, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Time to educate the cabinet makers and teach them the requirements. I have my guys trained and I meet with them on the jobs. All you can due is ask the inspector for leniency.


 
I disagree. Cabinets can be used anywhere, islands, walls, peninsula, and an outlet cut into a cabinet would be ugly for the most part.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

noarcflash said:


> I disagree. Cabinets can be used anywhere, islands, walls, peninsula, and an outlet cut into a cabinet would be ugly for the most part.



And the NFPA should care about aesthetics because..............? :001_huh:


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

noarcflash said:


> I disagree. Cabinets can be used anywhere, islands, walls, peninsula, and an outlet cut into a cabinet would be ugly for the most part.


What do you disagree with? The NEC states the requirement whether it is ugly or not. The cabinet guy needs to design the cabinets to accommodate the NEC whether you like the looks or not. We use sillite receptacles that are quite unobtrusive but you need a place for it.


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## mbednarik (Oct 10, 2011)

what about one of these
http://www.tnb.com/ps/fulltilt/index.cgi?part=KPR15GBRS


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## noarcflash (Sep 14, 2011)

people spending $50K on a kitchen will not want ugly obtrusive outlets, no matter what the code says. nice wood, granite, but a commerical looking outlet is not going over.

be a realist. a decora outlet is what most people expect.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

I spent $50K on my Porsche, but I still had to get brake lights, turn signals, a rear-view mirror and seat belts. Jeez, that crap sure makes it look like a dump. There should be an exception for rich people.


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## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> What do you disagree with? The NEC states the requirement whether it is ugly or not. The cabinet guy needs to design the cabinets to accommodate the NEC whether you like the looks or not. We use sillite receptacles that are quite unobtrusive but you need a place for it.


 Love the sillites:thumbsup:


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*flip up types*

what about these ??


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## That's It? (Aug 31, 2011)

mbednarik said:


> what about one of these
> http://www.tnb.com/ps/fulltilt/index.cgi?part=KPR15GBRS


 Any ones with an actuator to make it fancier?


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

noarcflash said:


> people spending $50K on a kitchen will not want ugly obtrusive outlets, no matter what the code says. nice wood, granite, but a commerical looking outlet is not going over.
> 
> be a realist. a decora outlet is what most people expect.


And the rules apply to $50K kitchen as much at they apply to a $5K kitchen.

If people could be trusted to do the right thing there would be no reason for a code at all.


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## mbednarik (Oct 10, 2011)

I think those pop use outlets are neat. But i also wanted to find some stainless plug mold with black outlets and put above my countertop on the wall, wife shut me down.


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## noarcflash (Sep 14, 2011)

BBQ said:


> And the rules apply to $50K kitchen as much at they apply to a $5K kitchen.
> 
> If people could be trusted to do the right thing there would be no reason for a code at all.


Where NOT talking about rules applying to $5K or $50K kitchens.

No customer will pay you to do something they don't want !!
If they think it's ugly, your out the door.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

mbednarik said:


> I think those pop use outlets are neat. But i also wanted to find some stainless plug mold with black outlets and put above my countertop on the wall, wife shut me down.


 
It doesn't work on a penninsula, but plugmold under the top cabinet is a nice look if you don't want receptacles messing up the tile work.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

noarcflash said:


> Where NOT talking about rules applying to $5K or $50K kitchens.
> 
> No customer will pay you to do something they don't want !!
> If they think it's ugly, your out the door.


OK pal, whatever you say.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

noarcflash said:


> Where NOT talking about rules applying to $5K or $50K kitchens.
> 
> No customer will pay you to do something they don't want !!
> If they think it's ugly, your out the door.


 
Then, if it's a new house, they don't get a CO to move in.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

noarcflash said:


> Where NOT talking about rules applying to $5K or $50K kitchens.
> 
> No customer will pay you to do something they don't want !!
> If they think it's ugly, your out the door.



That's your fault, not the customer's. Your fault because you failed to inform the customer of what is REQUIRED. 95% of the time, if you simply tell the customer WHY it is required, they understand.

The rules apply to a $500 kitchen as well as a $5,000,000 kitchen.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

480sparky said:


> That's your fault, not the customer's. Your fault because you failed to inform the customer of what is REQUIRED. 95% of the time, if you simply tell the customer WHY it is required, they understand.
> 
> The rules apply to a $500 kitchen as well as a $5,000,000 kitchen.


 
I had a lady that spent $25,000 on her island. She refused to let me cut a receptacle into anywhere. The way we got it to pass was have the GC put it on wheels for the inspection. Remove wheels afterwards.


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## sureline (Jun 11, 2011)

noarcflash said:


> What the code for an outlet UNDER a granite counter top, that over hangs 14" from the cabenit.
> 
> I remember something about 6" under counter top, but can't find the reference. The customer wants it lower.


REALY??? Are you kidding me??? ...How long have you been doing electrical work for? Are you licensed? You can't reference the code book?:laughing:


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## noarcflash (Sep 14, 2011)

More from the black hole fan club. keep on stalking me around the internet, I know I'm your idol.


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