# New to the trade, is dealing with volatile journeymen a fact of life?



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Just smile and do your work. Don't let him under your skin


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## chewy (May 9, 2010)

When I first started, 

I couldn't make it 10 stories of stairs without wheezing and taking breaks.

I couldn't work with my hands above my head for very long.

A single pouch with just my screwdrivers, pliers, ***** and tape measure felt heavy.

I couldn't measure very accurately.

I couldn't cut square, drive a nail, screw on a plate without stabbing the wall...

How about suck it up and take it like a man, you have no idea how irritating your incompetence really is to people who have been doing the job a fair while, you will get better and they will stop riding you so hard as you do.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

I disagree. People like this (assholes) are enabled by folks who do or say nothing. 
I would do just as you say, ask him politely to cut the sh*t.
If that gets you no where or in deeper trouble go right over his head as far as you can. You're in the union, you should have support for things like this.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

chewy said:


> How about suck it up and take it like a man, you have no idea how irritating your incompetence really is to people who have been doing the job a fair while, you will get better and they will stop riding you so hard as you do.


You CANNOT be serious! Incompetence? Did you miss the part where he says he is new to the trade?
How 'bout the asshole foreman suck it up and acknowledge that not everyone is as great as him?


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Speedy Petey said:


> I disagree. People like this (assholes) are enabled by folks who do or say nothing.
> I would do just as you say, ask him politely to cut the sh*t.
> If that gets you no where or in deeper trouble go right over his head as far as you can. You're in the union, you should have support for things like this.


That Long Island upbringing came to the surface.. :thumbup:


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

I had a "foreman" type guy yell at me once. 
I stopped for a minute to talk to someone in another trade. The foreman was on the other side of the small retail store we were doing. He clapped his hands loudly and yelled across the store to "let's go". 
I dropped what I was doing, walked over to him and said if he EVER did that again we'd have to discuss it somewhere off the jobsite.
I know a lot of you would say I should not have stopped to chat with another tradesman, but I did and would do it again. I busted my ass, and if I too 15-30 seconds to say something to someone that was my personal half a minute break. Too ****ing bad. Fire me.

I have to add, I lasted almost 7 years with this contractor when pretty much anyone else he hired lasted no more than a year. I had that (yelling) guy's job less than a year later. My boss saw where i was coming from.


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## CADPoint (Jul 5, 2007)

The level of language shows a lack of education(period). As my boss said this week if someone got's a piev about your level of work, just ask them "to show me".


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## WyeDelta (Jul 28, 2012)

Speedy Petey said:


> I disagree. People like this (assholes) are enabled by folks who do or say nothing.
> I would do just as you say, ask him politely to cut the sh*t.
> If that gets you no where or in deeper trouble go right over his head as far as you can. You're in the union, you should have support for things like this.


yeah cause unions dont like it when their little boys feelings get hurt by the schoolyard bully. :laughing:

they developed unions for p**sies like you.

oh yea new guy, if your union, well, that sucks figure it you. if you aernt, and you want to get fired, listen to that dumbs*it, and if you want to keep your job and learn somthing about electrical, make that guy your new best friend. shadow him and monkey see monkey do. ask questions, stay punctual with your time and work and theres nothing for anyone to complain about. ill tell you one thing, if you want to really start p*ssin everyone off, break the chain of command buddy. and see how long youll last... im just sayin put your big boy pants on and go to work like a man.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

I have worked for men like this as an apprentice, as a journeyman and as an owner. In each case I told the person in a calm voice.

We both are adults, we are not children you do not need to rant and rave like a child pitching a tantrum when addressing me. I will treat you with respect I expect the same.

In 99% of the cases the person responds positively, in 1% of the cases your ass is grass.

There is no need to mistreat anyone whether they are a helper, apprentice, or journeyman.


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## WyeDelta (Jul 28, 2012)

Speedy Petey said:


> I had a "foreman" type guy yell at me once.
> I stopped for a minute to talk to someone in another trade. The foreman was on the other side of the small retail store we were doing. He clapped his hands loudly and yelled across the store to "let's go".
> I dropped what I was doing, walked over to him and said if he EVER did that again we'd have to discuss it somewhere off the jobsite.
> I know a lot of you would say I should not have stopped to chat with another tradesman, but I did and would do it again. I busted my ass, and if I too 15-30 seconds to say something to someone that was my personal half a minute break. Too ****ing bad. Fire me.
> ...


your quite the socialite pete, and jobsite tough guy haha:laughing: kudos 

sereously? im proud of your reputation at your company. good job. i hope NOBODY takes this advice.. i mean you can..? but then ill be down at the UI office with the others who did.


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## JohnSmith (Jul 28, 2012)

I should mention that he's not the foreman on the job, another guy is who's been away on another project, but the foreman told me he doesn't expect me to be fast right away and to take my time and try my best doing it right. Which is what I've been doing, only to get laid out by this other journeyman who clearly hates his job and is just right pissed that there's any apprentices on the site at all.

As I said, I'm not a *****, and I've worked with guys way tougher than this dude. I've worked alongside ex cons in previous jobs who have done serious time, and always had them respect me for being a hard worker, and doing everything they say.

I don't understand the mentality that just because someone's an apprentice, it's ok to treat them worse than their dog. I go to work to learn as much as I can and to work hard. But I also expect to not get **** on every day in return.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

WyeDelta said:


> yeah cause unions dont like it when their little boys feelings get hurt by the schoolyard bully. :laughing:
> 
> they developed unions for p**sies like you.


Yeah, I'm a *****. And you are probably the asshole that was yelling at the new guy FOR NO REASON. 
No, the schoolyard bully need to get his ass kicked once in a while to humble him.
Unions are there to protect the worker. THAT was my point. 





WyeDelta said:


> oh yea new guy, if your union, well, that sucks figure it you. if you aernt, and you want to get fired, listen to that dumbs*it, and if you want to keep your job and learn somthing about electrical, make that guy your new best friend. shadow him and monkey see monkey do. ask questions, stay punctual with your time and work and theres nothing for anyone to complain about. ill tell you one thing, if you want to really start p*ssin everyone off, break the chain of command buddy. and see how long youll last... im just sayin put your big boy pants on and go to work like a man.


Yeah, you're a real man. 
"Chain of command"? You mean politics of the job site, don't you?

From the tone of the OP it sounds like he WAS doing all the right things. Go back and re-read what he wrote. 

What's you're ****ing problem buddy? Someone yell at YOU today?


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## Bootss (Dec 30, 2011)

Looks like there's more than one method to deal with "job site loud mouth".
Let it roll off your back, yell back at him, go over his head to a supervisor, punch him in the nose. Each one probably has its own merits. I've been yelled at, intimidated, had tools thrown at me it's not any fun.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

WyeDelta said:


> your quite the socialite pete, and jobsite tough guy haha:laughing: kudos
> 
> sereously? im proud of your reputation at your company. good job. i hope NOBODY takes this advice.. i mean you can..? but then ill be down at the UI office with the others who did.


I NEVER even implied I was a tough guy. I am far from it. I DO however stand up for what I believe in. 

So, what, YOUR advice is the only one that's correct?

You are some piece of work for a new guy around here though, huh? :whistling2:


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## chewy (May 9, 2010)

Speedy Petey said:


> You CANNOT be serious! Incompetence? Did you miss the part where he says he is new to the trade?
> How 'bout the asshole foreman suck it up and acknowledge that not everyone is as great as him?


Come on man, we only know one side of the story, I was trying to give the guy some realistic advice. 

The incompetence comment is from personal experience, plain incompetence I can deal with and I am very patient, I spent an entire lunch break trying to teach a guy how to drive a screw with a cordless. He decided the better career choice was to continue to "wake and bake" so a drug test was arranged and he is no long with us.

Incompetence coupled with back chat I absolutely do not tolerate and I will scream the skin off you if your stupid enough still be in my line of sight after doing it.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Speedy Petey said:


> You are some piece of work for a new guy around here though, huh? :whistling2:


Funny how these new guys know what buttons to push and come out swinging..

So much for jumping into the pool and not making a splash.. :no:


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

chewy said:


> Come on man, we only know one side of the story, I was trying to give the guy some realistic advice.
> 
> The incompetence comment is from personal experience, plain incompetence I can deal with and I am very patient, I spent an entire lunch break trying to teach a guy how to drive a screw with a cordless. He decided the better career choice was to continue to "wake and bake" so a drug test was arranged and he is no long with us.
> 
> Incompetence coupled with back chat I absolutely do not tolerate and I will scream the skin off you if your stupid enough still be in my line of sight after doing it.


It's just from his original post I got the impression that he was simply greeen, not incompetent. I thought you were equating the two.


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## Rideit (Jan 20, 2012)

CADPoint said:


> The level of language shows a lack of education(period). As my boss said this week if someone got's a piev about your level of work, just ask them "to show me".


I agree just drop your tools and tell him to do it. I have been in the union since the start, and we are supposed to be brothers!


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

I spent my first year working with a hung over addict who never showered or washed his clothes. One day he snapped at me to pull the snake, well I yanked it and along came a piece of flesh in the hook.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

The troll activity on this thread is astonishing. :laughing:


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

I recommend buying a whole bunch of little travel bottles of Johnson's "No More Tears" Shampoo and handing him one every time he starts crying.










-John


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Peter D said:


> The troll activity on this thread is astonishing. :laughing:


And I let it get to me. I hate myself for it!  :laughing:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

I do not yell at my employees.
I do not expect my employees to yell at anyone that works for me.

I have replaced one man in 27 years for what I consider mistreatment of an apprentice.

This type of crap yelling, shouting and abusing fellow workers does nothing to improve efficiency on a project, it negatively impacts production.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Speedy Petey said:


> And I let it get to me. I hate myself for it!  :laughing:


Good to see you take a walk on the wild side.. :laughing:


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## ace24wright (Jul 10, 2012)

:thumbsup:


brian john said:


> I have worked for men like this as an apprentice, as a journeyman and as an owner. In each case I told the person in a calm voice.
> 
> We both are adults, we are not children you do not need to rant and rave like a child pitching a tantrum when addressing me. I will treat you with respect I expect the same.
> 
> ...


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Speedy Petey said:


> And I let it get to me. I hate myself for it!  :laughing:


I can see that. :laughing:


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## chewy (May 9, 2010)

To the OP - 

When you think its getting really tough, just remember there is a trial happening here in New Zealand of a Korean fishing trawler that was not paying the Indonesian crew, barely feeding them and they were forced to massage the captain and provide sexual favors or they were beaten, they're way out at sea with nowhere to go. 

Point is, it could always be worse.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Big John said:


> I recommend buying a whole bunch of little travel bottles of Johnson's "No More Tears" Shampoo and handing him one every time he starts crying.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Those little bottles were ace to skirt a drug test back in the day.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

brian john said:


> I do not yell at my employees.
> I do not expect my employees to yell at anyone that works for me.
> 
> I have replaced one man in 27 years for what I consider mistreatment of an apprentice.
> ...


One of my GCs switched to me after their former ECs mechanic got into a violent brawl with his helper in the customers home in front of everyone.


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## JohnSmith (Jul 28, 2012)

Honestly I don't think I'm incompetent, but I guess I don't have a good frame of reference for that, but I've worked with my hands all my life and have a lot of experience with tools from my metal fab days. 

The only reason I even started the topic is because I don't think I'm doing the best work I'm capable of because every time I start to work on something I'm kind of nervous that I'm going to get yelled at for it.

The weirdest thing is that on a day that he was actually in a good mood, he told me I'm doing really well for a new guy. But it just sucks not knowing from one minute to the next if I'm going to get reamed out for something or not


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## Bootss (Dec 30, 2011)

JohnSmith said:


> Honestly I don't think I'm incompetent, but I guess I don't have a good frame of reference for that, but I've worked with my hands all my life and have a lot of experience with tools from my metal fab days.
> 
> The only reason I even started the topic is because I don't think I'm doing the best work I'm capable of because every time I start to work on something I'm kind of nervous that I'm going to get yelled at for it.
> 
> The weirdest thing is that on a day that he was actually in a good mood, he told me I'm doing really well for a new guy. But it just sucks not knowing from one minute to the next if I'm going to get reamed out for something or not


That kind of work envirement is the firkin disaster. Sorry whoever is running the show on that job is a knucklehead.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

JohnSmith said:


> Honestly I don't think I'm incompetent, but I guess I don't have a good frame of reference for that, but I've worked with my hands all my life and have a lot of experience with tools from my metal fab days.
> 
> The only reason I even started the topic is because I don't think I'm doing the best work I'm capable of because every time I start to work on something I'm kind of nervous that I'm going to get yelled at for it.
> 
> The weirdest thing is that on a day that he was actually in a good mood, he told me I'm doing really well for a new guy. But it just sucks not knowing from one minute to the next if I'm going to get reamed out for something or not


Some people are NOT leaders but have that position . Sounds to me as if the guy your working with seeks a scapgoat for his insufficiencies. The only time I would yell at the help is when they'd be standing around during OT or being stupid like a green guy trying to impress me taking it upon himself to smash holes in new cinder blocks thinking outlets were going there. He was dead wrong.


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## WyeDelta (Jul 28, 2012)

Speedy Petey said:


> Yeah, I'm a *****. And you are probably the asshole that was yelling at the new guy FOR NO REASON.
> No, the schoolyard bully need to get his ass kicked once in a while to humble him.
> Unions are there to protect the worker. THAT was my point.
> 
> ...


do you think his foremans attitutde has gone completely unnoticed by his superiors? 
do you think his super wants his greeeen new guy to come up to him with his problems with his feelings about his foreman? 
if that was two yesses move onto the third your on a roll
do you REALLY think that bitc*ing to sombody is going to fix, er change, or anything that will be productive to the new guy on the jobsite? sounds to me like his boss is a **** and if hes been there for any ammount of time HIS boss above him knows. sounds to me that bitchin* is bitchin* is bitchin* no matter how you read it.
pete you had quite a few I references isln one of your last posts.. let me fill you in on mine my friend.

i never go above anyones head, not because of politics.. but of respect
i deal with the grumpy people on my jobsite with kindness
ige never had to threten nor ever felt thretened by anybody at work
ive worked as an electrician for 6 years nonstop with 2 contractors, one tanked..
i started with my current outfit when we had over 85 guys in the field and i got hired 3 months before layoffs. 4 years later i am one amongst 7..
i work hard and care about what i do which is why ive edeucated myself for the last 3 years with honors through trade school.
i never felt the need to complain to my boss about other workers because I have a problem, i trust the people above me to do their jobs well as they do me. unless safety.
ive had the **** bosses and the language barriers etc. the only reason why i love coming to work is because i really want to be an electrician.
oh yeah i am a journey man
and i turn 25 this year..
:thumbup:


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## adroga (Mar 3, 2011)

Before I even remotely finish reading all the replies..

Hey chewy how about you go f!$k yourself with an attitude like that.


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## JohnSmith (Jul 28, 2012)

Like I said before, this guy isn't the foreman, another guy is who was sent to a different job site for a few weeks.

I think what I'll probably do is just deal with it until this job ends in a few months, and then when I get laid off, if the union tries to dispatch me again to this company I'll just turn down the call and tell them I don't want to work for that outfit again. And in the meantime I'll literally not say a word to the guy unless it's absolutely crucial to me doing my job. And if he yells I'll just stare at him and say nothing. Definitely won't apologize for anything anymore.


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## chewy (May 9, 2010)

adroga said:


> Before I even remotely finish reading all the replies..
> 
> Hey chewy how about you go f!$k yourself with an attitude like that.


Dont get emotional.


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## Bootss (Dec 30, 2011)

WyeDelta said:


> do you think his foremans attitutde has gone completely unnoticed by his superiors?
> do you think his super wants his greeeen new guy to come up to him with his problems with his feelings about his foreman?
> if that was two yesses move onto the third your on a roll
> do you REALLY think that bitc*ing to sombody is going to fix, er change, or anything that will be productive to the new guy on the jobsite? sounds to me like his boss is a **** and if hes been there for any ammount of time HIS boss above him knows. sounds to me that bitchin* is bitchin* is bitchin* no matter how you read it.
> ...


Dude you blow a lot of smoke for your age, you must be one of those superman electritions


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## Bootss (Dec 30, 2011)

JohnSmith said:


> Like I said before, this guy isn't the foreman, another guy is who was sent to a different job site for a few weeks.
> 
> I think what I'll probably do is just deal with it until this job ends in a few months, and then when I get laid off, if the union tries to dispatch me again to this company I'll just turn down the call and tell them I don't want to work for that outfit again. And in the meantime I'll literally not say a word to the guy unless it's absolutely crucial to me doing my job. And if he yells I'll just stare at him and say nothing. Definitely won't apologize for anything anymore.


Hope it helps to get it off your chest kid, now go enjoy your weekend.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

WyeDelta said:


> do you think his foremans attitutde has gone completely unnoticed by his superiors?
> do you think his super wants his greeeen new guy to come up to him with his problems with his feelings about his foreman?
> if that was two yesses move onto the third your on a roll
> do you REALLY think that bitc*ing to sombody is going to fix, er change, or anything that will be productive to the new guy on the jobsite? sounds to me like his boss is a **** and if hes been there for any ammount of time HIS boss above him knows. sounds to me that bitchin* is bitchin* is bitchin* no matter how you read it.
> ...


OK, wow. I completely understand now.

You have your opinion, I have mine. When you have another 20 years in the trades come back and we can discuss this further. 
This is NOT a diss on your age or work experience, I got a TON of experience my first 3-1/2 years as well, but it is an observation on your life experience.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Let's calm down, everyone. We don't need to make this so personal.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

B4T said:


> Funny how these new guys know what buttons to push and come out swinging..
> 
> So much for jumping into the pool and not making a splash.. :no:


I think he jumped in the pool and sunk to the bottom..:laughing:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Lep said:


> Dude you blow a lot of smoke for your age, you must be one of those superman electritions


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## WyeDelta (Jul 28, 2012)

Lep said:


> Dude you blow a lot of smoke for your age, you must be one of those superman electritions


lol... you have me there, just a little high strung? hahahah:whistling2:


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## Bootss (Dec 30, 2011)

WyeDelta said:


> lol... you have me there, just a little high strung? hahahah:whistling2:


Your cool, I get your point also.


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## 347sparky (May 14, 2012)

WyeDelta said:


> oh yeah i am a journey man
> and i turn 25 this year..
> :thumbup:


 
Big deal, I became a journeyman at 25 and so did 10 other people in my apprenticeship class. 2 were 24 at the time.


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

chewy said:


> To the OP -
> 
> When you think its getting really tough, just remember there is a trial happening here in New Zealand of a Korean fishing trawler that was not paying the Indonesian crew, barely feeding them and they were forced to massage the captain and provide sexual favors or they were beaten, they're way out at sea with nowhere to go.
> 
> Point is, it could always be worse.


I'm sick of hearing about all this entitlement. If they don't like it, they can always swim.


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## WyeDelta (Jul 28, 2012)

347sparky said:


> Big deal, I became a journeyman at 25 and so did 10 other people in my apprenticeship class. 2 were 24 at the time.


cheers to them as well

i guess im on the same page as the class then... im proud of it!:thumbup:

i know its not the biggest deal but not being apart of union or abc apprenticeship made the struggle all more worth it


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## chewy (May 9, 2010)

Frasbee said:


> I'm sick of hearing about all this entitlement. If they don't like it, they can always swim.


I dont know if the cold, leopard seals or sharks would get them first. :laughing:


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## WyeDelta (Jul 28, 2012)

Speedy Petey said:


> OK, wow. I completely understand now.
> 
> You have your opinion, I have mine. When you have another 20 years in the trades come back and we can discuss this further.
> This is NOT a diss on your age or work experience, I got a TON of experience my first 3-1/2 years as well, but it is an observation on your life experience.


absolutly correct 

two completely different people 
doing the same job
twocompletely different ways

haha cheers bud, a good day is a safe day in every electricians book:thumbsup:

i think your seeing were all that unchecked anger over the few years is finally going :blink:


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## critter done (Jan 12, 2011)

Hey John welcome to the trade and the forum.I'm a2nd year apprentice and I also came into the trade from a differant trade.I'm 37 and non union.Anyway my boss had me pull apart a 4 gang switch box in order to replace broken box.It had 2 single pole switches ,a 3way and a dimmer.Well...i couldn't get it back together.He threw a fit in front of the g.contractor,his help and the painters ...who were women none the less.Man i was embarrassed.Just 6 months into the trade.I could put those switches back together now.I don't know what to tell you.My dad said my boss was in the wrong which i agree...but i really want that journeyman's license.Maybe you should ask yourself how bad you want it.I'm still there , i just got my 2nd raise but man you can go from a hero to a zero quick.GOD bless .




Ride hard ,shoot straight and always speak the truth!


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## WyeDelta (Jul 28, 2012)

i think the most volitial journeyman is the one that is supposed to be experianced, and yet 50 miles away from a supplyhouse-puts the dang 1" dye and 3/4 cup on the ko set... 12 stainless boxes yet to be, yea, CRAP!


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## T-Bart (Jun 24, 2011)

JohnSmith said:


> New to the trade, is dealing with volatile journeymen a fact of life?


Yes. Yes it is. The reaction you just got pretty much proves it.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Speedy Petey said:


> And I let it get to me. I hate myself for it!  :laughing:


:laughing::laughing:


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

After almost 30 years in this trade, I find electricians to mostly be know it all, pig headed, stuck up, jerks. Mostly.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

backstay said:


> After almost 30 years in this trade, I find electricians to mostly be know it all, pig headed, stuck up, jerks. Mostly.


After 30 years ---We out to be


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## JohnSmith (Jul 28, 2012)

T-Bart said:


> Yes. Yes it is. The reaction you just got pretty much proves it.


The responses were pretty much 50/50 on this.

In any case, I've decided on the route I'm going to go with this. Like I said, I'm a hard working guy who's never had my work ethic or effort questioned in any job, and I've never complained or turned down any task in any job.

That being said, I expect a certain modicum of respect on any site. I've never gotten into an argument with a co-worker nor a heated discussion. That's not how I roll, and it's not what I'm willing to put up towards me either.

I accept that's it's going to be a lot of work to get my ticket, and I welcome it. I'm looking forward to learning a lot, and being a productive member of whatever team I'm on. If harassing or abusive behaviour exists on a job site, I'll leave and look elsewhere for work. I'm financially secure enough that I don't have to put up with it. I'm not willing to give up my self respect and be a groveling dweeb to get to where I want to be. 

Thanks for the feedback, and giving me perspective on the direction I need to take with this.

To those who have said that I need to not be a bitch and to just take it like a man, I'll make sure I never work on any jobs with guys like you. It's that kind of attitude that promotes unsafe work practices, bad morale, abuse of drugs and alcohol, and high employee turnover.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

backstay said:


> After almost 30 years in this trade, I find electricians to mostly be know it all, pig headed, stuck up, jerks. Mostly.


No...........









Not Us...:laughing::laughing:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

JohnSmith said:


> To those who have said that I need to not be a bitch and to just take it like a man, I'll make sure I never work on any jobs with guys like you. It's that kind of attitude that promotes unsafe work practices, bad morale, abuse of drugs and alcohol, and high employee turnover.


So you are a bitch.:whistling2::jester:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

JohnSmith said:


> The responses were pretty much 50/50 on this.
> 
> In any case, I've decided on the route I'm going to go with this. Like I said, I'm a hard working guy who's never had my work ethic or effort questioned in any job, and I've never complained or turned down any task in any job.
> 
> ...


BTW Welcome to the forum..:thumbup:



Keep this in mind ,Never let anyone give you chit just because they think they can stand up for your self and the ***** with the big fat head will stand down every-time.:thumbsup:


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

WyeDelta said:


> I think the most volatile journeyman is the one that is supposed to be experienced....


 That's actually one of the big reasons I don't like loud-mouths: I've never met one who could back it up. All the bluster sets them up for a fall when they turn out to be run-of-the-mill, or even below-average at their job.

-John


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## WyeDelta (Jul 28, 2012)

HARRY304E said:


> No...........
> 
> 
> 
> ...


nope, ive never known an electrician to act out in bad behavior or poor language before
:whistling2:


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

HARRY304E said:


> No...........
> 
> Not Us...:laughing::laughing:


I did say mostly...not all!


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

I was fortunate during my second employment to work with the old timers and heavy commercial/conduit work. I kept my mouth shut and my ears open only asking questions when I didn't understand. Hopefully your next gig will furnish a better crew leader.


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## WyeDelta (Jul 28, 2012)

Shockdoc said:


> I was fortunate during my second employment to work with the old timers and heavy commercial/conduit work. I kept my mouth shut and my ears open only asking questions when I didn't understand. Hopefully your next gig will furnish a better crew leader.


we got 2 guys who are 62 and 63 in the field, piping pulling digging you name it, and are also foreman. ill tell you what i felt like i was clashing with those guys at first, new work habbits, new company, and mistakes happened! i thought they had it out for me etc, and come to actually knowing them, theyre just naturally craby! also a little senile but after becoming acquaintances, they slowed down, became less craby, easier to understand and mistakes ave very few.besides theyre little old school tricks i learned how to work very well with them and everyone else in the future. unfortunatly you cant pick who you work with, but its manageable if its what you really have a passion for.

you new guys seem like you have the right attitudes to do this. that says alot about charactor and so on, id work with ya anyday! i dont care how green


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

I think I have a pretty good handle on why some leaders yell and cuss at the crew. I was one of those guys. For a very long time. I think it held me back greatly. I now have the benefit of hindsight, and I'm pretty sure it was the insecurity of the leadership position that caused it. I was so twisted up about the possibilities of not getting respect, not being listened to properly, and managing men many years my senior, that I compensated by yelling at people a lot. I guess the subconscious thought was that if I think they might not respect me, I'll make them fear me. It never helped that I am, personally, somewhat of a perfectionist. No wonder people didn't really enjoy working for me. It was brought to my attention at first, after I got off a less-than-nice phone conversation with an under-performing vendor, that a secretary said to me (more or less), "it makes me very uncomfortable to be around you when you're yelling at people like that. You can make people feel two inches tall from just your words", and this was only a phone call. 

Since then, I think I've mended my evil ways, for the most part. Some things that have helped me are the realization that there's at least a dozen ways to do any task. I'm now okay with a competent guy choosing to do it differently than I would have, as long as it doesn't use extra material or time. I've also learned that latitude must be given to men who have demonstrated competence. I also have found that the time spent formerly yelling and berating is better spent teaching and coaching. Pays bigger dividends, in the end. I think I was a pretty decent example of a person that had the knowledge to run a job, but not the skills to run men. Just as many good electricians make terrible business owners, some fantastic journeymen make terrible foremen. 

Even so, people are people, and I still lose my cool from time to time. Not every day or every-other day, as before. Maybe once every few months. Perhaps there is a healthy amount of yelling? Perhaps I just have a bit to go yet? Time will tell. As it is, I'm contemplating a different route in this trade. One that may take me to working alone, with little to no customer interaction. The only one I'll have to be mad at then will be myself.


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## electrictim510 (Sep 9, 2008)

Short story. 

As service manager at a previous job I came across a situation at a job where a new guy was helping out a couple journeyman running a few circuits in a commercial building. I walked onto the job to check on things in between service calls. I heard some yelling (knew it was from the 'alpha journeyman') and once I turned the courner I saw he was yelling down at an apprentice bending emt and was way out of line in what he was yelling about at that. 

Keep in mind I am a pretty nice guy, very understanding and really easy to get along with, always looking for a reason to be nice. I also just so happen to be at the time 6'4 380lbs. The apprentice was the smallest of the guys and the journeyman was far bigger.

So anyway; this journeyman was barking at the new guy like he was going to punch him one and when I came around the corner he almost looked like he looked almost proud of himself. I walked straight over to the j-man in a very pissed off manner, got right in his face to the point he could tell the condiments I had on my burger for lunch and proceeded to bark "Dont I EVER catch you yelling at ANYONE like that again! You dont remember being a new guy? You fee tough talking to a little guy like that? Yell at me!" Yanked him by the collar outside. "Youre off the clock, yell at me... NOW!" This guy looked like he just **** his pants and I could tell half of it was he just did not expect it from ME of all people. He proceeded with "Sorry, Tim I wont yell at him again man." 

Alot more yelling came outta my mouth after that. Then I stopped.

I spent the whole rest of the day with them afterward with a kinda laid back pace, talking to them about this and that, acting like it never happened. Took them all out for dinner and a few drinks. They were all hugs since that day, and still are buds to this day. :thumbsup:

I just do not like bullies. I'm a big boy raised by my momma, but dont call me a mommas boy. :lol:


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## chewy (May 9, 2010)

Me and the guys that work together yell at each other sometimes, its healthier than backstabbing schoolgirl behaviour, we can all get together for a beer on a Friday or go to the kids birthdays and have a good time. New guys dont understand it takes a while to be accepted as one of the boys.


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## halfamp (Jul 16, 2012)

I skipped past most of this thread after reading about half of the first page. One thing not sure if its been mentioned or not, but sometimes when you're working with someone, no matter their role, and they're just a crabby f*cker, pretty good indication they've got a drinking problem. Especially if its on a regular basis. Sometimes people are just hard to please, but I've definitely noticed people who are habitually crabby and irritable are pretty heavy drinkers and are feeling pretty sh*tty getting up early and working while feeling like trash. Just try not to give them something to bitch about


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## Hippie (May 12, 2011)

halfamp said:


> I skipped past most of this thread after reading about half of the first page. One thing not sure if its been mentioned or not, but sometimes when you're working with someone, no matter their role, and they're just a crabby f*cker, pretty good indication they've got a drinking problem. Especially if its on a regular basis. Sometimes people are just hard to please, but I've definitely noticed people who are habitually crabby and irritable are pretty heavy drinkers and are feeling pretty sh*tty getting up early and working while feeling like trash. Just try not to give them something to bitch about


Good point. Been around a few of these type myself


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## MNDan (Mar 14, 2010)

WyeDelta said:


> do you think his foremans attitutde has gone completely unnoticed by his superiors?
> do you think his super wants his greeeen new guy to come up to him with his problems with his feelings about his foreman?
> if that was two yesses move onto the third your on a roll
> do you REALLY think that bitc*ing to sombody is going to fix, er change, or anything that will be productive to the new guy on the jobsite? sounds to me like his boss is a **** and if hes been there for any ammount of time HIS boss above him knows. sounds to me that bitchin* is bitchin* is bitchin* no matter how you read it.
> ...


 
This guy is not a JW. This is the worst of the non-union residential bust ass get it done "I won't turn out cause then I will cost the boss too much money"attitudes. I've worked almost every aspect of this trade, union and non-union, and these douch bags drive me nuts. 

On another note, i had a JW like the op as an apprentice once. He started screaming in my face one day and I decided I was tired of it. I told him I wasnt going to listen to his screaming anymore and to find someone else to yell at. The decided that was reason to shove his finger into my chest a few times, in front of several other JWs. I decided that was the time to call my BA, instead of killing the guy, and he was fired within an hour. Just my experience with these difficult types.....


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## Aussielec (Apr 1, 2012)

JohnSmith said:


> I'm new to the trade, but I've worked in different construction fields like painting and metal fabrication before. I'm used to construction site talk and I'm not a princess. I work hard, don't touch my phone, don't talk back, try and do everything I'm told correctly, and generally bust my ass each and every day. I've never been late to work, written up, or laid off even.
> 
> I just started electrical and one of the journeymen is a loose cannon, and pretty much spends the day shouting and cussing at everyone around him, including me. I've also only been on the job for a week, but he's already been busting my ass about taking too long to run conduit, install boxes etc. but also flips out if something isn't perfect.
> 
> ...


Unfortunately you're in quite a difficult position being an apprentice and all. The fact about it is that generally apprentices have to put up with that sort of work environmont, I'm not saying it's right, but thats just how it is.

I do agree people like you're JM generally drag down motivation and confidence of the people around them by general just being a prick.

I also agree what someone else posted in this thread that people like that are general very average electricians and make up for it by being an arrogant loud mouth.

I think I've only ever screamed once at an apprentice and that was for being well a "teenager". Though he never talked back to me after that.

Bottom line is there are people like that where ever you work, it's really something you have to get use to. Just don't let him get to you.


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## Aegis (Mar 18, 2011)

I was treated like that when I was an apprentice and the two times I spoke up (two different companies), I was layed off a few months later. You shouldn't be treated that way but there's nothing you can do unless you want to lose your job.

Once I became licensed I didn't act like those guys before me, I treat apprentices and other electricians with respect and courtesy and I receive it in return (for the most part

I don't get guys that feel they have to treat green/new guys like trash.


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## WyeDelta (Jul 28, 2012)

MNDan said:


> This guy is not a JW. This is the worst of the non-union residential bust ass get it done "I won't turn out cause then I will cost the boss too much money"attitudes. I've worked almost every aspect of this trade, union and non-union, and these douch bags drive me nuts.
> 
> On another note, i had a JW like the op as an apprentice once. He started screaming in my face one day and I decided I was tired of it. I told him I wasnt going to listen to his screaming anymore and to find someone else to yell at. The decided that was reason to shove his finger into my chest a few times, in front of several other JWs. I decided that was the time to call my BA, instead of killing the guy, and he was fired within an hour. Just my experience with these difficult types.....


dont be jealous:no:

well at least i know what i want to do with my life, now, young, and motivitated
instead of bouncing around like the jack of all trades and master of none for the rest of my life... union or non pat or rebel
dosent matter as long as the kids are full and happy 


and im sure your happy to see this rat douc*bag doing it, commited, content, and ready.
i dont work in houses either, thats better left to the rigging of handymen like ahem..


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## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

I've encountered a few of these guys. Usually I just keep my mouth shut and continue doing my work. Realistically even on the off chance they are actually good at being an electrician, they don't exactly come from a highly educated or sophisticated background and so they have all the insight of a walnut. When the chance to throw one these trashbags under the bus comes, I happily take it. They never think twice about throwing me under the bus for their own f*ckups, so I won't think twice about reciprocating. I sleep with a clear conscience.


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## T-Bart (Jun 24, 2011)

BBQ said:


> So you are a bitch.:whistling2::jester:



:ban:


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## WyeDelta (Jul 28, 2012)

Vintage Sounds said:


> I've encountered a few of these guys. Usually I just keep my mouth shut and continue doing my work. Realistically even on the off chance they are actually good at being an electrician, they don't exactly come from a highly educated or sophisticated background and so they have all the insight of a walnut. When the chance to throw one these trashbags under the bus comes, I happily take it. They never think twice about throwing me under the bus for their own f*ckups, so I won't think twice about reciprocating. I sleep with a clear conscience.


if thats how people treat eachother where you work, i am terribly sorry for you. with my company being as small as it is now we have really learned how to function well together instead of worrying about whos gettin the boot and who may be giving it. with all due respect we work in two different worlds, it sounds like the people are worried about tearing eachother down to get ahead, on the other end of the spectrum, weve pulled together as a team to make sure we all make it out of this time of turmoil. weve all learned that EVERYBODY makes mistakes occasionaly so taking the blame isnt life or death. we get new guys here and there, and they all are respected equally, just as we expect to get in return. arrogance is ran off within 2 weeks, not fired or laid off. yeah so we go through parts runners like underwear tho. unfortunately we as a crew have that skill down to a t.. oh well everybody has their flaws :whistling2:


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

These professional sites get weird.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

you guys like getting played by trolls huh?


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## cdnelectrician (Mar 14, 2008)

JohnSmith said:


> Honestly I don't think I'm incompetent, but I guess I don't have a good frame of reference for that, but I've worked with my hands all my life and have a lot of experience with tools from my metal fab days.
> 
> The only reason I even started the topic is because I don't think I'm doing the best work I'm capable of because every time I start to work on something I'm kind of nervous that I'm going to get yelled at for it.
> 
> The weirdest thing is that on a day that he was actually in a good mood, he told me I'm doing really well for a new guy. But it just sucks not knowing from one minute to the next if I'm going to get reamed out for something or not


If I had a guy like that working for me he would be gone ASAP. There is no need for that kind of behaviour. Did you report this to your foreman?


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## Wibber (Feb 3, 2010)

It's part of the trade.

Allot of how you're viewed as an apprentice is how you deal with adversity. Adapt and get through it.

Take all feedback and assess whether there is merit to it. Do not discount feedback coming from multiple sources. Work on your skills incessantly. You are seeking constant improvement.

Do not attempt to back the guy off until you have been around awhile - your reputation is largely formed by initial impressions. Insolence - warranted or not - isn't something you want to be associated with.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

I don't lose my patience with apprentices unless they're complete dumbasses.


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## jredwood301 (Feb 8, 2009)

I had to deal with a guy like this during my apprenticeship. I finally had enough and told the guy that if it didn't pertain to work then i dont want to speak to you. He was pissy for a couple days of me ignoring him and then he did a 180* turn and we were able to get along. Just remember you will learn from every journeyman that you work with. The good jiw will teach you things that will help and bad jiw will teach you what not to do later in your career. Your 5 years will go quick and then you may be pushing work and if the jiw you are working with now shows up on your job you can put a shovel in his hand everyday till he drags.


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## donaldelectrician (Sep 30, 2010)

Wibber said:


> It's part of the trade.
> 
> Allot of how you're viewed as an apprentice is how you deal with adversity. Adapt and get through it.
> 
> ...




Then again , there is always the MA BELL DOCTRINE ....

"reach out and touch someone"


Don " Outstanding Citizen of the Conch Republic "


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## 347sparky (May 14, 2012)

An old saying we had was "be decent to your apprentice because you might be working for him someday".


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## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

WyeDelta said:


> if thats how people treat eachother where you work, i am terribly sorry for you. with my company being as small as it is now we have really learned how to function well together instead of worrying about whos gettin the boot and who may be giving it. with all due respect we work in two different worlds, it sounds like the people are worried about tearing eachother down to get ahead, on the other end of the spectrum, weve pulled together as a team to make sure we all make it out of this time of turmoil. weve all learned that EVERYBODY makes mistakes occasionaly so taking the blame isnt life or death. we get new guys here and there, and they all are respected equally, just as we expect to get in return. arrogance is ran off within 2 weeks, not fired or laid off. yeah so we go through parts runners like underwear tho. unfortunately we as a crew have that skill down to a t.. oh well everybody has their flaws :whistling2:


Well around here in the small-shop non union sector my experience is, apprentices are like toilet paper - disposable. Lots of young hungry guys trying to rack up their hours and despite a housing boom, not enough jobs for all of us. That keeps the pay low, and the abuse high. Fall out of line or complain(even legitimately) a little bit, and you're gone. No sweat off the employer's back, because someone else is dying to take your job. It feels like every journeyman who took the time to show me something new, was doing so at a risk to his own job. I have seen a lot of apprentices get tossed on a whim, without any particularly good reason.

I once read someone's post on here, in a thread started by an electrical engineer wondering about becoming an electrician. The post went something like - "being an electrician really means being a production monkey for stupid people who just want things done fast, their way. Nobody remotely cares if you have new ideas or want/need to learn something." I didn't believe that at the time, but I really do now.

I never expected the trade to be easy but I also never expected there would be so many people actively _trying_ to screw their peers over. Would I say everyone is terrible? No, but the ones who are, seem to be the ones in charge. I'm planning to move, and hopefully, there will be better opportunities where I end up. It's hard to learn anything when you're mostly looking over your shoulder.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

chewy said:


> Dont get emotional.


A Classic freak out


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

electrictim510 said:


> I just do not like bullies.


nor do I

as your story points out

most bullies are cowards

~CS~


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

critter done said:


> Hey John welcome to the trade and the forum.I'm a2nd year apprentice and I also came into the trade from a differant trade.I'm 37 and non union.Anyway my boss had me pull apart a 4 gang switch box in order to replace broken box.It had 2 single pole switches ,a 3way and a dimmer.Well...i couldn't get it back together.He threw a fit in front of the g.contractor,his help and the painters ...who were women none the less.Man i was embarrassed.Just 6 months into the trade.I could put those switches back together now.I don't know what to tell you.My dad said my boss was in the wrong which i agree...but i really want that journeyman's license.Maybe you should ask yourself how bad you want it.I'm still there , i just got my 2nd raise but man you can go from a hero to a zero quick.GOD bless .
> 
> Ride hard ,shoot straight and always speak the truth!


The guy made a mistake and took it out on you. This will not be the last time but, you will never forget it.
Try to remember this.

I had a first year apprentice, first day in the trade, as a young Journeyman. We were running some EMT in a ceiling and were hanging the blank covers on one screw and writing the circuit numbers on them to make it faster when pulling wire. I had him remove the blank and wrote "Joe's first blank cover" on it and handed it back to him. 
I didn't know, but he kept it and installed another one. He didn't have much confidence but came along nicely with a few well placed compliments. We only worked together for a couple of days or so.

We went our separate ways after the job was completed.
12 or 15 years later I see "Joe" again at a union meeting. He had been divorced, on drugs and had lived on the streets for 3 years or so.
He was all cleaned up now, working again and back to what would be considered a normal life.
He told me that through all of his "adventures", he kept the blank cover with him and always remembered those days working together and the patience I had with him.

So, I guess you can try be nice to people, and they will still steal material from the job turn out to be a bum living on the streets.


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## Revolver (Jul 30, 2012)

I hate work environments like that's. I don't think people like that deserve jobs.


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## adroga (Mar 3, 2011)

I've always been a person who took crap from people and kept on smiling and kept my mouth shut.

Occasionally I blow a gasket when the abuse is intolerable and when all the dust settles people stop messing with me.

I am pretty convinced the abusive people pick their targets accordingly. Stand up for yourself and the abuse will stop.


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## bill39 (Sep 4, 2009)

A few of things:

1) Maybe it's a matter of perspective: what one person considers being yelled at may really be just be having been talked to sternly and not sugar-coating the truth. 

2) Many people have never been "told" how to do something. They've just had things explained to them. Suck it up and get over it.

3) I served a 4-yr. apprenticeship and had to put up with an obnoxious JW for most of that time. The first time he tried that after topping out, I climbed down from the scaffold and told him face-to-face that I was a JW now and to cut it out. Pretty much put an end to it. Oh, I forgot to include the part about first chasing him down the aisle with a pipe-hickey in my hand. It requires a little more effort to get through to some people. Only time I've ever had to do something like that.


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## CraigV (May 12, 2011)

adroga said:


> I am pretty convinced the abusive people pick their targets accordingly. Stand up for yourself and the abuse will stop.


 
I think this is true. It's very rare that anyone singles me out for abuse. I'm no tough guy, so I'm not sure why people do't f with me. 

Some ribbing is to be expected...hey, I don't feel loved if someone isn't ranking on me. But screaming? No, not gonna happen.

Regarding earlier comments that abuse is the way of weeding out apprentices, this is a non-sequitor. No journeyman is expected to take random verbal abuse so it doesn't follow that absorbing it is somehow a skill needed for success.


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## jeffmoss26 (Dec 8, 2011)

I spent a summer working for a sound company. I got sent out on an install for a week with the company asshole...installing sound systems in a school four hours away. The guy is a d*ck to everyone, yet he does decent work. If they just locked him up in the shop to wire racks and never sent him to the jobsites, he would be okay.
The odd part to me is that guys who know him say he 'turns it off' after work and can be okay to deal with. He treated me like a pile of sh*t, and if it was not for him being my ride back to Cleveland, I probably would have given him a black eye.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Meet me at the pipe rack, after work.


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## jimmy21 (Mar 31, 2012)

jrannis said:


> A Classic freak out


classic.......... but scripted and fake


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## Lone Crapshooter (Nov 8, 2008)

Had a forman on a commercial that was so nasty with people on the job that when he walked into a room people who did not work for him got up and left.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

WyeDelta said:


> yeah cause unions dont like it when their little boys feelings get hurt by the schoolyard bully. :laughing:
> 
> they developed unions for p**sies like you.
> 
> *oh yea new guy, if your union, well, that sucks figure it you*. if you aernt, and you want to get fired, listen to that dumbs*it, and if you want to keep your job and learn somthing about electrical, make that guy your new best friend. shadow him and monkey see monkey do. ask questions, stay punctual with your time and work and theres nothing for anyone to complain about. ill tell you one thing, if you want to really start p*ssin everyone off, break the chain of command buddy. and see how long youll last... im just sayin put your big boy pants on and go to work like a man.


 People should treat you decently, especially your coworkers, whether your non union or union.


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