# Pool bonding AFTER THEY POURED CONCRETE



## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

I've had this problem and found no compliant way to do it without removing concrete. I imagine that getting to the reinforcement wire and attaching a bond would be good enough especially if you GFCI all the equipment, but it still doesn't meet the requirements of the code to the letter.


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

I would run from it FAST, unless all concrete was to be removed and the bonding 100% to code ! Doing a "close enough" or an " I ASSUME it ok" install has the potential to bite you in the ass hard . Insurance companies hate pools and Lawyers love pools. one will do anything to avoid any claim and the other will go after you for everything


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## Signal1 (Feb 10, 2016)

Tell the flipper he's a flopper and start busting concrete. 

Say "this is gonna be noisy" 

Remember to ask things like:

Not like on TV Huh?

Thought you were gonna get rich huh?

See This Old House lately? Norm said Roman ogee bit, not orgy! HAhaha


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

How do you know wire or rebar was installed? Many people will take the quick and dirty micro-fiber, or possibly macro-fiber shortcut. No steel = no Ufer to bond to.


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

Bail.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

I’ll need to get a rebar locator and a resistance meter. I have neither.
I think a zircon MT6 will work for the rebar locator
The resistance meter, I do not own but was looking at ETCR2100A ground resistance meter. I’ll have to watch some YouTube to learn how to use it.
Maybe a few bugs and 50’ of bare #6 and... some scotchkote.
32 man hours.
$5200.00


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## JoeSparky (Mar 25, 2010)

Too much liability for not enough reward. He had a brand new pool installed without hiring a fancy high dollar 'lectrician. Now he got caught. Fǔck him! 
If you do this, charge large and break the concrete. There is no other way to do it compliantly.


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

If you have a good relationship with an inspector and can get him/her to agree to a solution BEFORE you start any work, you might have a shot. 

I did the wiring and bonding of in-ground pools for years and can tell you that most inspectors take Article 680 very serious and will probably insist the deck be removed. 

Even worse, most inspectors don't respect house flippers and have it out for them.


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## JoeSparky (Mar 25, 2010)

frq3efeq said:


> Even if the inspector "allows it" (ie. doesn't fail him), all of the liability still falls on Southeast Power.
> 
> Municipal permits/inspections do not remove liability. If it's not to code and someone gets hurt, Southeast Power is f*cked.



Hacky's newest disposable user name is right. Southeast Power and his other username should take this advice :thumbup:


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

Southeast Power said:


> I’ll need to get a rebar locator and a resistance meter. I have neither.
> I think a zircon MT6 will work for the rebar locator
> The resistance meter, I do not own but was looking at ETCR2100A ground resistance meter. I’ll have to watch some YouTube to learn how to use it.
> Maybe a few bugs and 50’ of bare #6 and... some scotchkote.
> ...


You don't need a ground resistance meter. Pool bonding has nothing to do with the earth. You have to tie all the metal, including metal drain covers, ladders, light shells, and concrete support together and back to the pump(s).


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Walk behind concrete saw with double blades to make the line cut wider. Buster for the 4 places to get rebar, same for pool light. 

But this is going to be a low voltage light? Double read section 680. 
Put in a double insulated pump motor and you can skip the run to the motor, unless there is also other equipment in direct contact with water that needs bonding. Then after all new bonding done the flippers can put a new layer of tile over the old one to make it pretty again.


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

frq3efeq said:


> Even if the inspector "allows it" (ie. doesn't fail him), all of the liability still falls on Southeast Power.
> 
> Municipal permits/inspections do not remove liability. If it's not to code and someone gets hurt, Southeast Power is f*cked.


Where in this thread did anyone say anything about permits/inspections or for that matter anything removing liability? Anyone whose been around long enough and knows anything about being in business knows that NOTHING "removes" liability. You can "limit" to some extent the consequences of being found liable by having insurance and creating a legal entity, but you NEVER remove it.


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

Last year ,I was talking with some people from both Met Labs and UL about this very subject. I asked them if they would go out to certify a pool bond on an existing pool. Both companies adamantly said there's no way in hell . So I asked them if they knew of any NRTL, PE or engineering firm that would do so ? The answer - NO ! Too much liability, Too many unknowns, and NO industry standard for testing existing bonding.

These are the guys who do this type of stuff for a living and they run from this type of thing...……..


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

460 Delta said:


> How do you know wire or rebar was installed? Many people will take the quick and dirty micro-fiber, or possibly macro-fiber shortcut. No steel = no Ufer to bond to.


That is absolutely incorrect. If no steel rebar or mesh is used then the installer needs to use the alternate method to bond the deck. 680.26(B)(2)(b)


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

manchestersparky said:


> Last year ,I was talking with some people from both Met Labs and UL about this very subject. I asked them if they would go out to certify a pool bond on an existing pool. Both companies adamantly said there's no way in hell . So I asked them if they knew of any NRTL, PE or engineering firm that would do so ? The answer - NO ! Too much liability, Too many unknowns, and NO industry standard for testing existing bonding.
> 
> These are the guys who do this type of stuff for a living and they run from this type of thing...……..


A NRTL isn’t the organization for this kind of thing.
It’s only going to be a contractor pulling a permit for the job and having the AHJ sign off on it.


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

frq3efeq said:


> I said it.
> 
> Doing this work on a pool without it being 100% code compliant is foolish.
> 
> The inspector saying that he will pass it does not change that fact.


Where in this thread did anyone say or suggest anything about doing the work without it being 100% compliant? Point it out for me.

You just jumped to the conclusion that I was suggesting that an inspector might accept something less then 100% code compliance. I never said that. What I was suggesting was that he get a clear understanding of what the inspector would accept as a solution without removing the deck.

Stop being a troll.


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

frq3efeq said:


> flyboy said:
> 
> 
> > Where in this thread did anyone say or suggest anything about doing the work without it being 100% compliant? Point it out for me.
> ...


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

frq3efeq said:


> :vs_smirk::vs_smirk:


:vs_rightHere::vs_rightHere:


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Compliance, in my opinion, is the job of the AHJ to sign off on. 
I’m not a pool contractor. I will call my insurance and explain that if I take to job, I will need to know if I will be covered and to get what in need to be covered and make sure it covers attorney fees.
I think fire alarm work has plenty of liability and can potentially involve exponentially more people than a residential swimming pool.


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## JoeSparky (Mar 25, 2010)

Southeast Power said:


> Compliance, in my opinion, is the job of the AHJ to sign off on.
> I’m not a pool contractor. I will call my insurance and explain that if I take to job, I will need to know if I will be covered and to get what in need to be covered and make sure it covers attorney fees.
> I think fire alarm work has plenty of liability and can potentially involve exponentially more people than a residential swimming pool.



By the time you jump through all of the hoops and come up with a number to do this right, This guy will find someone else. He has already proven he didn't want to do it correctly when he didn't hire an electrician to bond the pool in the 1st place. He doesn't want it done right, he wants a permit and inspection now that he got caught so he can move on to the next one.
You are not going to give that to him. You are going to do the job correctly. He'll find some craigslist hack to pull the permit and sweet talk the inspector for dirt cheap instead.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

You may or may not be able to coerce a sticker out of an inspector, but of course that does not wash your hands of liability. 

Your insurance agent isn't going to tell you anything you don't already know. 

You could go to an engineer for a stamp, but they'll tell you to crack it up. 

How much do you really love your gopher's flipper friend?


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## mofos be cray (Nov 14, 2016)

Question: why can't I see hack's comments on this thread? I can only see them when somebody replies to him.


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## JoeSparky (Mar 25, 2010)

mofos be cray said:


> Question: why can't I see hack's comments on this thread? I can only see them when somebody replies to him.


Hacky was suspended here a week ago. He has created a few throw away accounts to attempt to skirt around his ban. The mods here are not dumb. All of the troll accounts so far have been banned and the posts deleted

https://www.electriciantalk.com/members/frq3efeq-205446/


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## LARMGUY (Aug 22, 2010)

mofos be cray said:


> Question: why can't I see hack's comments on this thread? I can only see them when somebody replies to him.


You must have put him on ignore.

Bamminated?

Well I'll shut up now.


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

manchestersparky said:


> That is absolutely incorrect. If no steel rebar or mesh is used then the installer needs to use the alternate method to bond the deck. 680.26(B)(2)(b)


You totally missed my point, he can jackhammer up the whole pad and find no steel under it because someone went for the quick and easy, fiber.


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## mofos be cray (Nov 14, 2016)

JoeSparky said:


> mofos be cray said:
> 
> 
> > Question: why can't I see hack's comments on this thread? I can only see them when somebody replies to him.
> ...


Thanks for the info.

Seems a bit excessive. One can only guess that any one username belongs to anyone person. As long as whatever username is posting is not stepping outside of the user agreement I don't see why any user is kicked.


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## JoeSparky (Mar 25, 2010)

mofos be cray said:


> Thanks for the info.
> 
> Seems a bit excessive. One can only guess that any one username belongs to anyone person. As long as whatever username is posting is not stepping outside of the user agreement I don't see why any user is kicked.



Seems like you answered your own question


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Right now I am not real happy with Joe Sparky and 99 for that matter. They should not be using another members avatar while he is on vacation , unless they contacted same and got permission.......... 


Call me Karen........ :devil3:


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## JoeSparky (Mar 25, 2010)

macmikeman said:


> Right now I am not real happy with Joe Sparky and 99 for that matter. They should not be using another members avatar while he is on vacation , unless they contacted same and got permission..........
> 
> 
> Call me Karen........ :devil3:



KAREN!:vs_laugh:

Just having fun for the moment. Hacky would probably only give me permission to FOAD at this moment:biggrin: 
That is not HackWork's avitar. It is one of a long gone member named Hackster:wink:
You slept through his latest troll account and subsequent banning again.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Point of Order you thread butchers. :hammer:


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

Remember the last touch rule. You were the last one to touch it, so, it must be your fault.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Bird dog said:


> Remember the last touch rule. You were the last one to touch it, so, it must be your fault.


I don’t back down off of a 2000 amp 480 volt service so, a resi pool... good.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

Southeast Power said:


> I don’t back down off of a 2000 amp 480 volt service so, a resi pool... good.


But 2000 amp services don't have children swimming inside them.


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## JoeSparky (Mar 25, 2010)

Southeast Power said:


> I don’t back down off of a 2000 amp 480 volt service so, a resi pool... good.


I get it, however house flippers are notorious for being cheap fcuks. It gets done safely and legally at his expense even if it means destroying the concrete to do so. 
Don't be afraid to walk away. You don't need him, he needs you.

Is this going to be on season 10 of The Vanilla Ice Project? :devil3::vs_laugh:


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Since this thread is about pool bonding I heard an investigation is going on. The facts are not all out because this just happened. A man and his son suffered "electric shock drowning" which happened after an electrician extended the pool light brass conduit with PVC to move the deck box. It is unclear how he bonded the conduit and why the GFCI did not trip. As simple as pools are to wire, they can be dangerous if not done correctly or they are not maintained.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

JoeSparky said:


> I get it, however house flippers are notorious for being cheap fcuks. It gets done safely and legally at his expense even if it means destroying the concrete to do so.
> Don't be afraid to walk away. You don't need him, he needs you.
> 
> Is this going to be on season 10 of The Vanilla Ice Project? :devil3::vs_laugh:


What you and several others said about flippers is sooo true. When I was an inspector I had to go on many inspections for a flipper. They would insist that no new electrical work was done. It is all preexisting. Lies lies and more lies. All Romex is date coded. Around here they have what is called a closed wall electrical survey. Totally useless but acceptable to the town. Why have a license when the homeowner can file and say he did the work. If the flipper is the homeowner then he files.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Southeast Power said:


> I don’t back down off of a 2000 amp 480 volt service so, a resi pool... good.


Do you do that by doing what needs to be done without cutting corners, or find a way to justify halfassing it so your gopher's friend hears what they want to hear?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

kb1jb1 said:


> What you and several others said about flippers is sooo true. When I was an inspector I had to go on many inspections for a flipper. They would insist that no new electrical work was done. It is all preexisting. Lies lies and more lies. All Romex is date coded. Around here they have what is called a closed wall electrical survey. Totally useless but acceptable to the town. Why have a license when the homeowner can file and say he did the work. If the flipper is the homeowner then he files.


They won’t let flippers pull permits here. Only if it’s the primary residence. And they can’t sell or rent within two years.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

HackWork said:


> They won’t let flippers pull permits here. Only if it’s the primary residence. And they can’t sell or rent within two years.


Most flippers around here don't pull permits until after all work is done if they take one out at all. Or if they get caught. Also most are in low income areas so the town's look at It as the flipper is cleaning up the neighbourhood.


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## oliquir (Jan 13, 2011)

Just a question here about my own inground pool, it was installed in 1973, there is no concrete at all on it (aluminum panels on the sides and bare earth under liner), no lights, just a double insulated pump 10 ft away, it has a vinyl liner, but it has one metallic ladder, would i need to bond it to something?


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

oliquir said:


> Just a question here about my own inground pool, it was installed in 1973, there is no concrete at all on it (aluminum panels on the sides and bare earth under liner), no lights, just a double insulated pump 10 ft away, it has a vinyl liner, but it has one metallic ladder, would i need to bond it to something?


I can't say what the CEC says about it, but the NEC would have it bonded to the pump motor.


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## Tonedeaf (Nov 26, 2012)

I had an fiberglass in ground pool installed last summer in my shore house. The pool guy was gonna give me a 2000 credit if I wired the pool.

I said no thanks many because i don't do pools and was not sure of the correct way to do the bonding....i had no rebar the apron.....the guy ran a # 6 copper continuous in the apron around the pool and bonded it to the pump, panel and an pvc T' Fitting with a brass lug.

not sure if what he did was right but it passed inspection.


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## jw0445 (Oct 9, 2009)

oliquir said:


> Just a question here about my own inground pool, it was installed in 1973, there is no concrete at all on it (aluminum panels on the sides and bare earth under liner), no lights, just a double insulated pump 10 ft away, it has a vinyl liner, but it has one metallic ladder, would i need to bond it to something?


I did one of these last year. Inspector wanted the ring with 4 contacts on the metal panels and the ladder back to the pump. 150 ft. of bare #8. Passed at lunch time.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Tomorrow I’m going in at $7,500 plus permit fee and third party engineering.
My young pre apprentice just lost the bottom part of his right thumb moving a Cummings 20k resi unit. I found the part that was cut off and used black tape to reattach it to his finger.
The black tape worked so well the attending physician thought it was just a cut and put 11 stitches around the edges. I told him to take the morning off and be at the job after lunch for some ditch digging.
He said Ok I’ll be there boss. :devil3:


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## mofos be cray (Nov 14, 2016)

Southeast Power said:


> Tomorrow Iâ€™️m going in at $7,500 plus permit fee and third party engineering.
> My young pre apprentice just lost the bottom part of his right thumb moving a Cummings 20k resi unit. I found the part that was cut off and used black tape to reattach it to his finger.
> The black tape worked so well the attending physician thought it was just a cut and put 11 stitches around the edges. I told him to take the morning off and be at the job after lunch for some ditch digging.
> He said Ok Iâ€™️ll be there boss.


I don't know how much of that thumb he cut off but if it was any real amount and he turns up tomorrow to dig give him a raise. There ain't many kids out there with that kind of mentality. You want to keep guys like that.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

mofos be cray said:


> I don't know how much of that thumb he cut off but if it was any real amount and he turns up tomorrow to dig give him a raise. There ain't many kids out there with that kind of mentality. You want to keep guys like that.


What is the kid expects a lunch break? I say fire him


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## mofos be cray (Nov 14, 2016)

HackWork said:


> mofos be cray said:
> 
> 
> > I don't know how much of that thumb he cut off but if it was any real amount and he turns up tomorrow to dig give him a raise. There ain't many kids out there with that kind of mentality. You want to keep guys like that.
> ...


I've got friends who are in their 20s and dont have a drivers liscense. More than one, its ****ing ******ed. And one has a girlfriend! How do you get a girl if you can't drive?


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## JoeSparky (Mar 25, 2010)

mofos be cray said:


> I've got friends who are in their 20s and dont have a drivers liscense. More than one, its ****ing ******ed. And one has a girlfriend! How do you get a girl if you can't drive?


We are raising a planet of fuĉking pussies. They probably met at the bus station or in the back of an Uber


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

mofos be cray said:


> I've got friends who are in their 20s and dont have a drivers liscense. More than one, its ****ing ******ed. And one has a girlfriend! How do you get a girl if you can't drive?


Someone break the news to him.:biggrin:


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## mjbasford (Oct 2, 2016)

Southeast Power said:


> mofos be cray said:
> 
> 
> > I've got friends who are in their 20s and dont have a drivers liscense. More than one, its ****ing ******ed. And one has a girlfriend! How do you get a girl if you can't drive?
> ...


It involves a twelve inch ...., a dozen roses, and a pickup truck. He just can't drive it. And the flowers are for show.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Some people mentioned bonding to a double insulated pump. Do they have or make a double insulated motor with a bond lug?? I have never seen one and would bonding to it defeat the purpose of double insulated?


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## mofos be cray (Nov 14, 2016)

mjbasford said:


> Southeast Power said:
> 
> 
> > mofos be cray said:
> ...


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

mofos be cray said:


> mjbasford said:
> 
> 
> > It involves a twelve inch ...., a dozen roses, and a pickup truck. He just can't drive it. And the flowers are for show.[/QUOTE
> ...


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

kb1jb1 said:


> Some people mentioned bonding to a double insulated pump. Do they have or make a double insulated motor with a bond lug?? I have never seen one and would bonding to it defeat the purpose of double insulated?


We see bond lug on plastic housings, is that similar?


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