# GFCI breaker keeps tripping



## stephenj99 (Dec 27, 2012)

I recently installed gfci breakers in an old house to meet code requirements. There is no ground wire throughout the house. I have 1 circuit that trips when i turn the ceiling fan on. I have traced and trouble shot the problem down to the light kit. The breaker will hold if i put only 1 bulb in the kit (it has space for 4), in any spot. If i put all the bulbs in it trips. All wiring is visible and seems fine. It is not an over amperage problem cause that fan is the only thing currently drawing power on the circuit. There is only about 5 receptacles and 2 switches on the circuit and nothing is being used. The breaker will trip with just 2 candleabbra 40watt bulbs being used. I have tried another breaker with the same result. Anyone have any intelligent ideas?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Either install a new light, or take out the breaker and install GFCI receps.


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## stephenj99 (Dec 27, 2012)

I've been looking for a 1 bulb light kit for this fan with no sucess. But recently i went back to the house and now the porch light (sigle 60 watt bulb) will also trip my breaker.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

stephenj99 said:


> I've been looking for a 1 bulb light kit for this fan with no sucess. But recently i went back to the house and now the porch light (sigle 60 watt bulb) will also trip my breaker.


I doubt it's a 1 lamp v. 2+ lamp issue.

You have a ground fault, and the GFCI is doing it's job. You need to _remove_ the ground fault, not 'cover it up'.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Does the problem also occur when you turn the actual fan on? Have you put other loads on the same circuit?

My thinking is you have a high-resistance ground fault on the circuit neutral and as you increase the load, you increase the neutral voltage drop and push the parallel fault current over the trip threshold for a GFCI.

A megger is a wonderful tool for this if you have one. Otherwise, test a variety of locations and loads, and if nothing else except the light kit trips this, I would simply replace the light kit.


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## stephenj99 (Dec 27, 2012)

I've been looking for another light kit with no sucess. It's a unique base. Anyway I dont think that is the problem. I dont know what the problem is exactly, thats why i am posting my problem. I know different ways i could get around this Sparky. I'm not an idiot and i've been in the trade a long time. What i'm asking is if anyone has any inte3lligent ideas on what might be causing this and if someone has maybe ran in to this before. I could take out the breaker and install gfi's throughout the circuit to meet code but this is not cost effective and i would not want that in my home.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Oh goodie! Another uncfesta thread. 

Color me outta here.


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## stephenj99 (Dec 27, 2012)

Big John. This sounds like my problem. I do not have a megar though. The circuit works fine on a regular breaker. I just tried flourecent bulbs to no sucess. When you say start testing the circuit, what do myou mean. I've been doin this a long time but i do know the inner workins of the gfi or the thoery behind it. Normally i would just go around this problem but now i really want to know where the exact problem is. I have ran into the same thing in the past though, so i thought this would be common


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## stephenj99 (Dec 27, 2012)

The fan itself has no impact on the breaker trippin at all.


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

stephenj99 said:


> What i'm asking is if anyone has any inte3lligent ideas on what might be causing this.


Yes



480sparky said:


> You have a ground fault, and the GFCI is doing it's job. You need to _remove_ the ground fault, not 'cover it up'.





stephenj99 said:


> Big John. This sounds like my problem. I do not have a megar though.


You should



stephenj99 said:


> When you say start testing the circuit, what do myou mean.


He means megger it, your GFCI is likely tripping as designed, it sees a ground fault, so first thing to check is for a ground and you do that with a megger. :whistling2:


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## stephenj99 (Dec 27, 2012)

The wiring in the house does not have a ground, as i said earlier. There is no direct short.


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## Toronto Sparky (Apr 12, 2009)

Lamp shell is grounding the neutral to the lamp holder?

Just because the house has no grounds doesn't mean the power can't find a path to ground.

GFI is monitoring incoming and return current.. If there is any difference it trips..

May also be that the neural is shared by another circuit somewhere in the house or neutral is (somewhat) grounded somewhere in the house which a GFI doesn't detect until the load goes up..


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## stephenj99 (Dec 27, 2012)

I have narrowed the problem down to the light kit on the ceiling fan. When i put all the bulbs in it, it trips. However the light kit is very simple and all the wiring is good. The light kit itself is good. No shorts, bad wiring, ohm's good, etc. I can put 1 or 2 bulbs in the kit, in any of the 4 slots, and everything is fine.; When i put all the bulbs in it trips. WTF. Sounds like an overamp problem but its not. And i've already checked for a faulty breaker. Breaker is good.


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## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

I've seen this before. Fix ended up being quite simple.


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## stephenj99 (Dec 27, 2012)

I know a gfi reads the hot and neutral to tell it when to trip, but i was wondering if incandecent light bulbs would have something to do with faulty trips?????????? I'm lost. I can do a few thin gs to get around this but i really want to know what the exact problem is.


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## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

You should call an electrician to come fix this for you.


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## Toronto Sparky (Apr 12, 2009)

I would pull the neutral off the breaker and check continuity to a known ground (water pipe) Keep in mind the house may not have grounds but the incoming neutral is grounded.


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## stephenj99 (Dec 27, 2012)

I am an electrician and i did add a ground to the house into the panel, just didn't rewire the entire house so most circuits dont have a ground wire. I will test continuity on the circuit and see what happens. I know a few ways to fix this problem, but i have time right now and i really want to know exactly what is causing it. I have seen ceiling fans trip gfi's in the past and i would like to know the reason.


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## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

stephenj99 said:


> I am an electrician


Not a very good one.


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## rrolleston (Mar 6, 2012)

stephenj99 said:


> I'm lost. I can do a few thin gs to get around this but i really want to know what the exact problem is.


If we were there to do the job for you we would be able to tell you the exact problem. Kinda tough to solve all problems without being there and doing the job for you.

I would carefully check all your connections and fixtures giving you problems. May even be a good time to start replacing some of the ungrounded wire. with 12/2 14/2 romex.


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## FastFokker (Sep 18, 2012)

You're seriously an electrician? Or just an apprentice?



> About stephenj99
> What is your electrical related field/trade: master electrician


Holy sheet.. well you should be teaching us a thing or two.



stephenj99 said:


> The wiring in the house does not have a ground, as i said earlier. There is no direct short.


You're seriously an electrician? :no:

GFI senses if the current coming over the hot differs from the current coming back on the neutral (or return). Depending on the rating of the GFI, if the currents vary by a few mA, the GFI will trip. 

Maybe you think it's a faulty GFI, so you try a different one and it still trips.

Guess what, you've got some current going somewhere else! It's apprenticeship training 101.

Good thing the GFI does it's job. 

Solutions have been given already.. replace the fixture or go back to a standard breaker and put gfi plugs in or start pulling some new wire.


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## Neil2010 (Oct 31, 2012)

Actually it is 7 mA that the GFCI trips...it senses the difference between L1 and L2. Its there for a reason, and its code for a reason. What all these guys are telling you is to find the fault.


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

Neil2010 said:


> Actually it is 7 mA that the GFCI trips...it senses the difference between L1 and L2. Its there for a reason, and its code for a reason. What all these guys are telling you is to find the fault.


5mA +/- 1mA


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

stephenj99 said:


> I am an electrician and i did add a ground to the house into the panel, just didn't rewire the entire house so most circuits dont have a ground wire. I will test continuity on the circuit and see what happens. I know a few ways to fix this problem, but i have time right now and i really want to know exactly what is causing it. I have seen ceiling fans trip gfi's in the past and i would like to know the reason.


Let's hear some of your ideas on how to fix it in a code-compliant way? If you don't have a megger, you should at least have a good Fluke with a megaohms setting. Try ohming it out set on that range.


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## crosport (Apr 4, 2010)

jza said:


> Not a very good one.


 Chill out! If you have nothing helpful to say don't say anything at all.


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## dthurmond (Feb 7, 2011)

Older house have shared neturals all the time . I would see how many whites are connected at the light . Unhook all except the home run and the one for the light and she if problem goes away .


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## rrolleston (Mar 6, 2012)

Worked replacing receptacles in an old house once with old two wire bx type wire and both wires were black. Had to figure out what one was hot or neutral and remark them. Do you have your wires crossed somewhere?


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## Toronto Sparky (Apr 12, 2009)

Likely the load side neutral has a leak to ground somewhere (the breaker will not trip until the load gets high enough to create enough difference that the breaker sees it)


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

You have a neutral leak somewhere in the circuit, whether to a grounded point or another circuit.


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

isolate circuit.....check all nuetrals.....you are sharing one someplace downstream.....check all devices back to panel...easy problem just many possible points to it...divide and conquer.....fan is problaly just pushing it to limit.....red herring...


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## stephenj99 (Dec 27, 2012)

No. this is a job where i have extra time, but not extra money. I have fixed the problem, but i still did not learn what i wanted to know. I could have fixed this ten different ways in under 10 mins but none of those tells me what exactly what the cause of my original problem is. If this was just a normal service call, i would have fixed it and went on. But i posted this to maybe learn somethin but it seems everyone just wants to tell me how to fix it. anyway thank you Sparky and [email protected]#$ you jza. I'm sure even you or a first year apprentice could have fixed it, but then you wouldn't learn, and thats why you dont know right now, and why you will never be better than you are now


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Wait. What?

You fixed the problem, but don't know what caused it?

Does your 'ten different ways' comment mean you did 10 things to the circuit, one of which solved the issue?


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

stephenj99 said:


> No. this is a job where i have extra time, but not extra money. I have fixed the problem,


How did you fix the problem?


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## FastFokker (Sep 18, 2012)

Wirenuting said:


> How did you fix the problem?


He called Mr. Electric.


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## rrolleston (Mar 6, 2012)

He put a standard breaker in the panel and figured it could have been done ten different ways.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

FastFokker said:


> He called Mr. Electric.


He should have called Mr Rewire. He would have helped him out and insured he had shined shoes.. LoL


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## gnuuser (Jan 13, 2013)

possibly a neutral short
had a lamp trip out a gfci and found a neutral wire pinched under a cover a few j boxes away.


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

i love this guy lol :laughing::wallbash::wallbash::wallbash:


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