# Union Industrial Electrician...



## LanceBass (Mar 22, 2013)

...I'm currently doing an apprenticeship through a private business. We do mostly residential work but I know its better to know industrial electrcity. I know I could learn through Trade School but then I'd have to not be an apprentice.

Can you learn to be an industrial electrician through a union? Or are unions only for residential training?


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## Peewee0413 (Oct 18, 2012)

You want training? Hit the road build a power plant or two. Work in a mine, and try the oil and gas... then you'll realize industrial electricians are the best...truthfully I think industrial is the hardest route and gives more knowledge. I also believe res/com guys have skills ill never have as well...


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

LanceBass said:


> ...I'm currently doing an apprenticeship through a private business. We do mostly residential work but I know its better to know industrial electrcity. I know I could learn through Trade School but then I'd have to not be an apprentice.
> 
> Can you learn to be an industrial electrician through a union? Or are unions only for residential training?


The unions do not do residential...


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

HARRY304E said:


> The unions do not do residential...


Harry, that is not factual. They certainly do . Maybe not where you are at. In my neck by far they perform the lion's share of new housing starts.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

You can learn industrial two ways - through working for non union contractors that do that sort of work or through an apprentice program. Most union apprentice programs do not specialize in just industrial work - they are usually more generalized along the industrial/commercial/institutional range.

If you can get into your local union, I recommend it. However, there are some fine non union electricians out there to learn from, it just takes some effort to find a company looking for apprentices in the field you want.

Welcome to the forum and best of luck.


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

from my experience in the industrial industry most work is performed by non union contractors and big time facilities that haven't gone union yet will do anything they can to keep the union out of their building. i hear stuff that this kid is saying all the time "blah blah i wanna be a industrial guy blah blah screw resi". well seeing as you have zero experience id say you gotta crawl before you can walk and walk before you can run. get some experience being a helper and take it all in. when you're well rounded and know how to listen and learn then you can take steps to get in your desired field. it takes years before you can run with the big dogs so buck up and do it like everybody else had to


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## Peewee0413 (Oct 18, 2012)

You can make more money non union. Not counting pension of course. TIC has a program that is awesome. Instructor Dennis C. knows his stuff.


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## LanceBass (Mar 22, 2013)

ponyboy said:


> from my experience in the industrial industry most work is performed by non union contractors and big time facilities that haven't gone union yet will do anything they can to keep the union out of their building. i hear stuff that this kid is saying all the time "blah blah i wanna be a industrial guy blah blah screw resi". well seeing as you have zero experience id say you gotta crawl before you can walk and walk before you can run. get some experience being a helper and take it all in. when you're well rounded and know how to listen and learn then you can take steps to get in your desired field. it takes years before you can run with the big dogs so buck up and do it like everybody else had to


I understand. What the director of the Electrician Engineering program told me at my CC was that a lot of people get their associates and then go to work in the industrial field.

Idk how true that is and I guess that's what I'm asking. If I'm say, Texas Instruments, and I own a factory, I'm gonna take the guy with 4 years experience and maybe 2-3 college courses vs. Someone fresh out of school that hasn't worked anywhere.

I'd MUCH rather just be an apprentice than be in school. In the end I want to know if an apprenticeship - in the LONG RUN just like you said - opens the same number if doors?


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## Peewee0413 (Oct 18, 2012)

I have no schooling no licenses / certs.... I make 60-100k a year depending the job ...all thanks to industrial know how ....of course that's because I dropped the conduit and took the diagnostic path ...(mainly self taught and proud)


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

Peewee0413 said:


> You can make more money non union. Not counting pension of course. TIC has a program that is awesome. Instructor Dennis C. knows his stuff.


Hahahaha.


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## LanceBass (Mar 22, 2013)

Thank you for all the responses. I appreciate them.


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## Peewee0413 (Oct 18, 2012)

Loose Neutral said:


> Hahahaha.


What


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Peewee0413 said:


> What


The laughing is for the assertion that non union makes more than union.

Honestly I bet some folks do, but putting the whole package together, most electricians don't make what union electricians make, industrial or otherwise.

A lot of complexes strive to avoid unionization specifically because our package is higher than the wages they want to pay - and they go through great pains and effort to convince their employees that they are 'better off' staying non union. Just consider the source of the information and put it into the proper perspective, just as you ought to take anything I say about unionism with the full knowledge that I am a long time member.

That said, there are many fine choices to pursue an industrial career, whether you like the mechanical aspects of things or the instrument side of things or a bit of both, you can find opportunities if you are willing to work for them.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

eejack said:


> The laughing is for the assertion that non union makes more than union.
> 
> Honestly I bet some folks do, but putting the whole package together, most electricians don't make what union electricians make, industrial or otherwise.
> 
> ...


This reminds me of a plant I worked in for 6 years. Non-union plant.
I asked one time about a union and almost got my head chopped off. I was only asking and here is what I was told.

We had a union one time. We voted it in, even though the company said they would fire anyone who joined or signed the ballot.
The union got in and the company immediately froze Christmas bonuses.
The company said no more bonuses and the union was quickly dissolved.

In less than one year, the union was dissolved over a measly one week bonus pay check.
The employees were so stupid not to see the big picture. They could have had that weeks pay over 100 times, but only saw the single missing Christmas check.
This is why people move their businesses to the south.
The people are very slow and hard headed.


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## Peewee0413 (Oct 18, 2012)

Yeah I've seen the bonus thing in a mine I worked once... truthfully, no pun intended. A lot of union members abuse their rights. Complain and get lazy. That is why i believe companies hate unions.


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## Peewee0413 (Oct 18, 2012)

A lazy worker has job security, in a union..........you know its a strong statement, but pretty true...


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

Peewee0413 said:


> A lazy worker has job security, in a union..........


You might have a slight chance in a municipal union, definitely not in a construction union. You obviously haven't a clue.


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## Peewee0413 (Oct 18, 2012)

I worked in a roofers union when I was 18...


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## Peewee0413 (Oct 18, 2012)

Had a job with union workers. They got mad that we worked through their breaks and sometimes took a late lunch... "im sorry your laziness makes you look bad, I have a job to do" the time you lose taking multiple breaks and stopping for lunch at an unreasonable time makes the project last longer...i say man up and work


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Peewee0413 said:


> Had a job with union workers. They got mad that we worked through their breaks and sometimes took a late lunch... "im sorry your laziness makes you look bad, I have a job to do" the time you lose taking multiple breaks and stopping for lunch at an unreasonable time makes the project last longer...i say man up and work


So for less money you are willing to put up with crappier conditions? I am sorry to hear that.

Breaks are there for a reason. While I understand the 'gotta work all the time full speed' mentality I also understand that it creates an unsafe and unpleasant worksite.

It is not 'manning up' to be so scared for your job that you are willing to work like you do - it is fear. You have a legitimate right to be concerned for your continued employment.

What unions do is remove a portion of the fear. I can work safely and do a workmanlike job without concern for being fired over the most mindless of reasons. The guys just starting out don't have to try to compete with me to get work done as efficiently and I don't have to compete with their enthusiastic energy. I can spend the time to train the folks I work with and learn from them as well.

Union and non union sites have lazy workers, and good workers. Just because I am union does not mean I cannot be laid off, or fired for being incompetent or reckless, however it does mean that the employer has to deal with me as part of a greater collective, and I have to deal with him through that same collective. Both parties benefit.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Peewee0413 said:


> That is why i believe companies hate unions.


Companies hate unions because unions increase costs and therefore decrease profits. Just like a company will buy cheaper toilet paper to save a buck they look at their non union workforce as cheaper but still getting the job done.

All the other stuff about lazy workers etc. etc. etc. is all spin and corporate doublespeak to convince their workforce to not go union.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

The middle class is being conditioned to consider unions a threat eejack, you don't need to help it along with TP analogies.....~CS~


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## chris856 (Jun 12, 2009)

It all depends on the area I guess. Where I'm at most of the industrial work is union but it is not the majority of what we do and whether or not you end up working for a shop that does industrial depends on who you get dispatched to, although you can rotate voluntarily every year and a half or so.

It almost sounds like you are looking for a maitenance/facilities job. Most of those jobs require you to have a Journeyman's license. Most of the guys I run into that do these jobs are not doing it as a union job but are members in good standing and our local does post listings for these jobs on our website.

As an apprentice I would recomend the union hands down. I've been on both sides and I can say the schooling is much better and the electricians I've worked seem to more more knowledgeable in general.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

Peewee0413 said:


> I worked in a roofers union when I was 18...


Nuff said.


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## Peewee0413 (Oct 18, 2012)

How is union schooling a better side? You attended both?


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## Peewee0413 (Oct 18, 2012)

I don't need a union to get work.. as far as having to bust my but to assure I keep mt job goes, I don't bust my butt. I work hard when the job calls for it and slow down when I feels its necessary. No good standing company slave drives anymore. Its all about safe productivity now. ....Union members: have u worked next to a guy who makes the same as you and knows only half? No quite fair to your hard work in learning your trade. Its even worse when their lazy and dumb.. makes you all look bad and unions look bad


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

_<sigh>_.............


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Peewee0413 said:


> How is union schooling a better side? You attended both?


I don't know if every union apprentice program is better than every non union apprentice program, but our programs are honored by every governing board that oversees apprentice programs. It is my belief that our education is superior but that is a belief - not a fact - as it is impossible to verify.

That is not to say that there are not excellent non union mechanics out there - there are a great many of them - and many excellent training programs.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Peewee0413 said:


> I don't need a union to get work.. as far as having to bust my but to assure I keep mt job goes, I don't bust my butt. I work hard when the job calls for it and slow down when I feels its necessary. No good standing company slave drives anymore. Its all about safe productivity now. ....Union members: have u worked next to a guy who makes the same as you and knows only half? No quite fair to your hard work in learning your trade. Its even worse when their lazy and dumb.. makes you all look bad and unions look bad


I have worked with folks both better and worse than myself and it never seems unfair to me. We as a collective are responsible for the job. While I may not be the best at something I certainly put in the effort, and in general I believe - union or non union - the vast majority of folks who go to work go and put in a good effort.

I understand the non union competitive nature - it is a requirement for success, which is measured in merit (money). 

Unions don't measure success the same way - we measure it in quality of life and conditions. If we as a group do well then the whole group does well. My benefits are not only dependent upon my own effort, but the efforts of those working around me. 

It is in my own interest that everyone I work with has insurance and retirement options, works safely and fairly and spreads the effort and the joys of the job. In a non union situation, you might be best served by working with knuckleheads to make yourself more valuable.

I get that it is a strange way of looking at things, coming from the non union viewpoint, it is as alien to you as it is to me to strive to stand out from the crowd. 

No, we both don't need a union to get work - I just prefer working that way and you prefer to work your way.


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## Peewee0413 (Oct 18, 2012)

Nice way to put it...


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

eejack said:


> I have worked with folks both better and worse than myself and it never seems unfair to me. We as a collective are responsible for the job. While I may not be the best at something I certainly put in the effort, and in general I believe - union or non union - the vast majority of folks who go to work go and put in a good effort.
> 
> I understand the non union competitive nature - it is a requirement for success, which is measured in merit (money).
> 
> ...


hahahaha:laughing:


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## Peewee0413 (Oct 18, 2012)

Saying that stuff I take it as your a loser lifer? Its ok people like u makes my getting a job easier


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

Peewee0413 said:


> Saying that stuff I take it as your a loser lifer? Its ok people like u makes my getting a job easier


Read what you just posted!!! Hard to make sense out of it. I respect eejack and his opinions but I still believe it's easier to get rid of "dead wood" in a non-union shop. If running your own business is being a "loser lifer" I guess that's what I am!!!!:laughing::laughing: Please don't break my legs or if you do make it painless!:laughing::laughing:


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## Peewee0413 (Oct 18, 2012)

Its all fun and games.. unions suck, but some people like em. To each is own ...


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

Peewee0413 said:


> Its all fun and games.. unions suck, but some people like em. To each is own ...


:laughing::laughing: I've never even belonged to a roofers union!! I just think it's funny how defensive it gets when someone brings out the obvious differences between the two. It probably depends on who you're working for. In my area the union is almost non-existent. Most of us electricians are on friendly terms with each other and I'd have to say I prefer it that way. JMHO


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## RevTap (Mar 12, 2013)

(sorry about the wall of text, I get going and it's hard to stop :whistling2

Workers in most places tend to get put into an unfortunate dilemma. Employers often reward the hardest and most dedicated of workers with promotions and raises, strongly incentivizing the "man up and work" attitude mentioned above; working through breaks, taking reduced or no lunch, unpaid OT, etc. In the area where I grew up, that sort of thing is rampant. Simply put, if you aren't willing to do whatever the boss wants (even if it violates your legal rights), you're viewed as "lazy" and will never get anywhere. It's just part of the culture, built in due to the constant downward pressure of the profit motive. It will be there as long as private enterprise exists.

The dilemma comes in when you consider your coworkers. I can make those sorts of sacrifices and get personally rewarded, but in doing so I increase the pressure on everyone else to do the same. It erodes the idea of workers' rights, and makes those legal protections that are in place gradually more and more unenforceable. I've personally experienced everything from the expectation that employees put themselves in serious unnecessary danger, to outright theft by employers, and nothing could be done about it because it wasn't at all out of the norm (note that I'm not talking about electrical work here; I'm still waiting to begin my apprenticeship). It can, and does, get out of hand enough that simply trying to do eight hours of work for eight hours of pay becomes grounds for termination.

Before I ever got into union work, I heard about various contract provisions that sounded ludicrously strict and unnecessary. Restrictions on what sort of tools various workers could even pick up on the job site, that sort of thing. Then, once I finally started doing some union work, it quickly became apparent that it was all about providing a counter to that downward pressure. Suddenly, my coworkers would get upset if I didn't immediately go to break at the designated time, or if I tried to do work outside my specific job description at a boss's request. It did feel like being lazy, at first. Thing is, though, all those same people would (and do, at every union job I've worked) bust their asses the rest of the time; the only difference was that the union drew a hard line in the sand where protecting their rights was concerned. In protecting workers against that slippery slope, I no longer have to decide whether or not to make things a little worse for everybody else in order to get ahead. Personally, I find I can do better work without that dilemma constantly hanging over my head; I find it distracting, particularly when I'm actually friends with my coworkers.

I've also done some (non-union) public sector work and have a number of relatives who do as well, and once again it's subject to a different culture. With zero profit motive in place and the money already acquired before the work starts, the incentive is simply to get the work done, in the time allotted, with the money available. The only gain to be had in going beyond that is for those public sector workers who really believe in what they're doing and want to do more for their communities (pretty much all my public-sector relatives fall into this category).

I've worked with industrious and lazy people in all three categories, in honestly roughly the same proportion. Sure, depending on the provisions of any given contract, it's probably more difficult to fire a worker for being lazy in a union shop, but that's not the only disincentive to laziness out there. Nobody likes carrying someone else's job for them, and people don't tend to stay in a job very long if all their coworkers hate them. Peer pressure doesn't stop happening, or even get any less powerful, just because we're adults.

So really, the question isn't whether or not union workers (or public sector workers) are lazy; from the perspective of being essentially required to do literally whatever it takes to get ahead, anything else is going to appear lazy by definition. The real question is whether or not that's an acceptable standard to judge all workers by. Given that it's the standard that encourages employers to call me lazy for wanting to get paid for my work, I'm gonna go ahead and cast my vote for "no."


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## Peewee0413 (Oct 18, 2012)

My company hired me to maintain plcs vfd's and all the controls. I spend more time helping the crews run the facility than actually doing my hired job. See the thing is im not just an electrician. Im a team member of a company who happens to know electrical....I don't kiss ass I help my company to succeed ...that's where unions screw things up..can be a team when you segregate in the company....


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## RevTap (Mar 12, 2013)

In my experience, employers who expect their employees to exhibit the kind of hard work and dedication to the company embodied by the term "team member" are common.

However, in my experience, employers who exhibit the kind of respect for and loyalty to their employees to make the term "team members" something more than empty rhetoric are quite rare.

It's a two-way street.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

The company I'm working for does around a $100 mil a year in all kinds of electrical work and has been doing so for over 50 years. Somethings working out.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Peewee0413 said:


> I have no schooling no licenses / certs.... I make 60-100k a year depending the job ...all thanks to industrial know how ....of course that's because I dropped the conduit and took the diagnostic path ...(mainly self taught and proud)


Does your 60k to 100k come with any benefits or pension/ 401k ?


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Peewee0413 said:


> My company hired me to maintain plcs vfd's and all the controls. I spend more time helping the crews run the facility than actually doing my hired job. See the thing is im not just an electrician. Im a team member of a company who happens to know electrical....I don't kiss ass I help my company to succeed ...that's where unions screw things up..can be a team when you segregate in the company....


I think you totally misunderstand the role of representation. You are defining a company that has employees running around and getting involved in what ever they want.
Being organized is just that. Much the way our military operates.


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## chris856 (Jun 12, 2009)

Peewee0413 said:


> How is union schooling a better side? You attended both?


 I started out non-union and went to school for three years and I can say the union schooling covers a lot more ground than the non union school I went to and has more lab space. It may not be the same at all JATCs but in Seattle we have a pipe bending lab, motor control, fire alarm, transformer, and power quality lab and a few others I'm not thinking of.

The non union school just had a motor lab.


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

Peewee0413 said:


> You can make more money non union. Not counting pension of course.


If your not counting the pension, than you are comparing apples to oranges.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

RevTap said:


> In my experience, employers who expect their employees to exhibit the kind of hard work and dedication to the company embodied by the term "team member" are common.
> 
> However, in my experience, employers who exhibit the kind of respect for and loyalty to their employees to make the term "team members" something more than empty rhetoric are quite rare.
> 
> It's a two-way street.


But then you're in Minnesota!!!!!:laughing::laughing: Even after your long sermon I still disagree with the concept of slowing down to make the dead wood look better. That seems to be a common theme. Makes sense why my neighbor that worked at a union shop urged me to apply. He said, "Really all you have to do is show up!!" I guess it goes against what I've been taught. Sorry!


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## Mozzy49 (Feb 21, 2013)

Employers will hardly ever give Union employee's the respect they deserve as in their minds as businessmen they are paying someone something they could outsource for pennies on that. That's why I do think Unions are maybe (aside from being in the service close to it) might be the most "pro America" job you can have as IMO it is Unions that are the only thing preventing the trades from being outsourced to non USA contractors.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

macmikeman said:


> Harry, that is not factual. They certainly do . Maybe not where you are at. In my neck by far they perform the lion's share of *new housing starts.*


is that done at the same rate mike?


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

Probably a resi rate.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

RevTap said:


> (
> Workers in most places tend to get put into an unfortunate dilemma. Employers often reward the hardest and most dedicated of workers with promotions and raises, strongly incentivizing the "man up and work" attitude mentioned above; "


Oh my God, rewarding people for their worth, yeah that is awful.


As far as working through breaks, not getting OT their are laws against that and people need to take responsibility for thir own lives and not put up with being taken advantage of and this includes quitting a job and finding a better one.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Mozzy49 said:


> Employers will hardly ever give Union employee's the respect they deserve as in their minds as businessmen they are paying someone something they could outsource for pennies on that.


At the same time union workers seem to think they are special and deserve automatic respect. 

Guess what, we are all just tradesmen and will never be truly respected by most business people.


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## skinnyj41004 (Mar 17, 2007)

chris856 said:


> I started out non-union and went to school for three years and I can say the union schooling covers a lot more ground than the non union school I went to and has more lab space. It may not be the same at all JATCs but in Seattle we have a pipe bending lab, motor control, fire alarm, transformer, and power quality lab and a few others I'm not thinking of.
> 
> The non union school just had a motor lab.


Out of curiosity what did the power quality lab consist of?


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## sparky970 (Mar 19, 2008)

eejack said:


> I don't know if every union apprentice program is better than every non union apprentice program, but our programs are honored by every governing board that oversees apprentice programs. It is my belief that our education is superior but that is a belief - not a fact - as it is impossible to verify.
> 
> That is not to say that there are not excellent non union mechanics out there - there are a great many of them - and many excellent training programs.


I agree. We have several guys working for us that came from open shops and joined the union. Most were called out as foreman, and all have excellent skills. Some of the skills they have are superior to the ones I ever got in my apprenticeship. What I have noticed is the young age they are for what they know. A good electrician is a good electrician.


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## sparky970 (Mar 19, 2008)

wendon said:


> Read what you just posted!!! Hard to make sense out of it. I respect eejack and his opinions but I still believe it's easier to get rid of "dead wood" in a non-union shop. If running your own business is being a "loser lifer" I guess that's what I am!!!!:laughing::laughing: Please don't break my legs or if you do make it painless!:laughing::laughing:


 I have never had an issue with getting rid of a guy that can't perform. If they are lazy or can't do the work, send them back to the hall. Have you ever worked union? How do you know?


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## RevTap (Mar 12, 2013)

wendon said:


> But then you're in Minnesota!!!!!:laughing::laughing: Even after your long sermon I still disagree with the concept of slowing down to make the dead wood look better. That seems to be a common theme. Makes sense why my neighbor that worked at a union shop urged me to apply. He said, "Really all you have to do is show up!!" I guess it goes against what I've been taught. Sorry!


Guess you missed the bit in my long sermon about how the union folks I've worked with (in two unions, in two states) bust their asses whenever they're on the clock and not on designated break time.

Slowing down? Not hardly. :no:


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## RevTap (Mar 12, 2013)

BBQ said:


> Oh my God, rewarding people for their worth, yeah that is awful.


Ah, love me some disingenuous out-of-context quote replies.  Got anything to add that doesn't rely completely on pretending other parts of the post don't exist?




BBQ said:


> As far as working through breaks, not getting OT their are laws against that and people need to take responsibility for thir own lives and not put up with being taken advantage of and this includes quitting a job and finding a better one.


You're adorable. 

There are parts of the country where worker's rights laws mean squat, either because of other laws on the books that effectively nullify them or make them unenforceable, or because the will to enforce those laws just isn't there among the folks who're supposed to do so. In places like that, any time there's a surplus of labor, employers who won't take advantage get much thinner on the ground. Of course, you can always sue the bastards yourself...if you've got the spare cash lying around for it. Pithy sayings about personal responsibility are great when you're not the one faced with the choice of "try to stand up for my rights" or "put food on the table."

Amusingly enough, though, I did do what you recommend and took responsibility for my own life...by moving to a less anti-worker state and getting a union job. :thumbup: I'm glad to see you support my decision and I'll tell my friends back home that you recommend they do the same. :icon_wink:


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

In other words, you left you family & friends to wallow in dysfunction, while you ran off and joined the Borg?

stout fellow....

~CS~


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## RevTap (Mar 12, 2013)

Hey, I've told several of them they should follow suit, but apparently none of them know enough about personal responsibility yet. :001_tongue:


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

I see, so this begs the question, especially in light of recent history, just where do you suggest they run?










~CS~


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## RevTap (Mar 12, 2013)

Anywhere amenable to them where there are union jobs to be had? Seriously, I encourage people to join unions whenever possible precisely because of the effect that chart illustrates, but if "union" is a dirty word where you live...


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

RevTap said:


> Anywhere amenable to them where there are union jobs to be had? Seriously, I encourage people to join unions whenever possible precisely because of the effect that chart illustrates, but if "union" is a dirty word where you live...



well Rev, then i would suggest you ship you & yours to China, they're lousy with union forming at this point in history as we are with union busting

but i digress, you have openly admitted that personal responsibility is no more than your back pocket 

this is sad .....

it's sad because unions were born of the concept of _collectivism_, or in terms you might grasp, folks that took personal responsibility for the next generation, they had an _allegiance_ that has been tossed under the bus opining as you do here

just where do you think the term_ together we stand, divided we fall_ comes from?

Run if you like Rev.....butcha can't hide....

~CS~


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## RevTap (Mar 12, 2013)

I encourage the people I know to bolster the rate of union membership in the country...so I should go to China? :blink:

Not quite following you there.

I moved from a place where I couldn't really make a living, to one where I can, and can get involved in promoting labor issues in a way that could actually have an effect.

Everything I've said about "personal responsibility" is just making fun of BBQ's post.


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## chris856 (Jun 12, 2009)

skinnyj41004 said:


> Out of curiosity what did the power quality lab consist of?


 I wish I could tell you as I haven't seen it yet. I can't imagine it is anything horribly substantial since I think only a week or two are spent on the subject.
My only complaint is that they seem to cover a too many subjects without getting too in depth on any one subject except for code and theory.


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## skinnyj41004 (Mar 17, 2007)

chris856 said:


> I wish I could tell you as I haven't seen it yet. I can't imagine it is anything horribly substantial since I think only a week or two are spent on the subject.
> My only complaint is that they seem to cover a too many subjects without getting too in depth on any one subject except for code and theory.


We just finished that class at my local abd it was only bookwork but the teacher was new and he did get a rep from dranitz to come in one night.


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## Peewee0413 (Oct 18, 2012)

big2bird said:


> If your not counting the pension, than you are comparing apples to oranges.


Ya but how much does you company contribute to your 401k? Most companies i work for match me. So it probably works out.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Peewee0413 said:


> Ya but how much does you company contribute to your 401k? Most companies i work for match me. So it probably works out.


In my case, 13% of my gross goes to pension. Only 12% goes into my annuity, so a quarter of my gross on top of my gross goes into my retirement.

No 401k though.


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## Peewee0413 (Oct 18, 2012)

Ok well I contribute 10 and my company matches


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

Peewee0413 said:


> Ok well I contribute 10 and my company matches


Are you saying you put 10% of gross away and your company matches?


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

Loose Neutral said:


> Are you saying you put 10% of gross away and your company matches?


He's saying he is living high on the hog in one of the poorest states in the US. 
New Mexico is like a third world country.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

Sounded pretty generous.


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## MIKEFLASH (Apr 14, 2012)

Union can be good so can non union depending on varing circumstances. There's good electricians in both. Im non union making 80,000 per year with 36,000 per year in pension nothing to shake a stick at. Union makes good wages also. Can't we all just all get along.


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## Peewee0413 (Oct 18, 2012)

big2bird said:


> He's saying he is living high on the hog in one of the poorest states in the US.
> New Mexico is like a third world country.


High hog in a third world country. State is poor because its full of ******** people. Don't believe me, come check it out. Bet we have the highest teen pregnancy and the lowest graduation rate. Bet the average persons pay is........oh welfare. I reside here doesn't mean I always work here. Im a road whore and proud of it.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

So did the HS guidance counselor(s) convince the kids welfare was a viable carear PeeWee....? ~CS~


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## Peewee0413 (Oct 18, 2012)

I think somebody did. Actually my personal opinion is that NM schooling is less than average. "Dumb teachers make dumb students" ha! ha!


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

well we could trade a lotta notes here , Vermont's not exactly on the fast track to the new millenium either PeeWee

i just have a hard time blaming the kids, they didn't ask for what's being handed to them

~CS~


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## LanceBass (Mar 22, 2013)

What I'm worried about is getting into a union but not having any work to go to. Is there any work in the North East - specifically Maine? If a union is accepting applications for JATC does that mean they have steady work to send you to? I have a lot of respect for Unions buy I just can't be out of work for long...does anyone have any thoughts on this?


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## d80hunter (Apr 7, 2013)

LanceBass said:


> What I'm worried about is getting into a union but not having any work to go to. Is there any work in the North East - specifically Maine? If a union is accepting applications for JATC does that mean they have steady work to send you to? I have a lot of respect for Unions buy I just can't be out of work for long...does anyone have any thoughts on this?


 It means you will have steady work during your 5 year apprenticeship. Apprentices are always in demand, especially with large contractors. After that anything can happen. The same people who needed your help at work probably will not want you around after you get your JW card unless your contractor has a lot of work. Overall success in the union has a lot of variables, you will never know for sure until you made a lasting job as a JW or not. 

I would recommend the apprenticeship it provides a lot of experience other than sitting in class.


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## uconduit (Jun 6, 2012)

Peewee0413 said:


> Had a job with union workers. They got mad that we worked through their breaks and sometimes took a late lunch... "im sorry your laziness makes you look bad, I have a job to do" the time you lose taking multiple breaks and stopping for lunch at an unreasonable time makes the project last longer...i say man up and work


'We're in a crunch, can't pay you this week but I promise we will pay you next month, you understand right?? Man up. Work for free....'

yeah right


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## J.Dunner (Apr 21, 2013)

Pee wee sounds like a dooosh bag. There's ONE coffee break, and ONE lunch break. The times and duration are in the agreement. Everyone knows what to expect. There's no surprises. Pee Wee eats his lunch while he works. Thinks he's a big tough guy. Meanwhile, he's cheating himself and his family out of money and working himself into the grave. When you're 55 years old and your knee's are looking for that break...you'll be replaced by another young, dumb, and full of cum adolescent know-nothing........conrats on worming the standards of the trades down to nothing.


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## LanceBass (Mar 22, 2013)

Yeah it's one of those tragedy of the commons type things. When you refuse breaks and lunch you gain a bit more for yourself - but at the expense of ****ing everyone else over. Jesus, even plantation hands had a ****ing lunch break...


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## Lone Crapshooter (Nov 8, 2008)

Where I work we have union electrical conrtactors. They say that there is a 2 hour classification for the ones that the contractors don't want for various reasons. When the name is next on the list the contrtactor sends the electrician a check for 2 hours and calls the next name.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

Our contract gives the contractor right of refusal. Not likely, but has been done.


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## sparky970 (Mar 19, 2008)

Loose Neutral said:


> Our contract gives the contractor right of refusal. Not likely, but has been done.


I've exercised the right. Union or non, there are guys that make you wonder how the got a license.


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## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

sparky970 said:


> I've exercised the right. Union or non, there are guys that make you wonder how the got a license.


 
I've had to do it several years ago when the guys on site saw who was coming on site and said they would drag up if he wasn't turned around. The GC came by later and said what is up with that guy,"I had the plumber's forman, and iron worker's forman say that if that guy stayed they would pick up the day until he was gone.

Apparently the guy always started chit with everyone and was a thief.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

Well there goes the myth that you can't get rid of someone.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Loose Neutral said:


> Well there goes the myth that you can't get rid of someone.


Nah...they like that myth. It goes with the rest of the fairy tale.


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## chris856 (Jun 12, 2009)

I like the way it works. Either your competent enough to make what everyone else makes or you don't get to work at all.

When I was non union I worked for a company that way underpaid me for way too long. My thought was if I wasn't good enough to make more than $14 at that point than I must have been pretty terrible and shouldn't have been working there at all.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

chris856 said:


> I like the way it works. Either your competent enough to make what everyone else makes or you don't get to work at all.
> 
> When I was non union I worked for a company that way underpaid me for way too long. My thought was if I wasn't good enough to make more than $14 at that point than I must have been pretty terrible and shouldn't have been working there at all.


That is the myth of merit based systems...they lead you to believe that you make what you are worth, when in reality you make what the business can get away with paying you. It is easy to exploit those who don't know any better.

Neither system is perfect, but I believe collective bargaining is fairest to everyone involved. There are mechanisms in place to resolve most issues and advocates on both sides of any dispute.


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## J.Dunner (Apr 21, 2013)

eejack said:


> That is the myth of merit based systems...they lead you to believe that you make what you are worth, when in reality you make what the business can get away with paying you. It is easy to exploit those who don't know any better.
> 
> Neither system is perfect, but I believe collective bargaining is fairest to everyone involved. There are mechanisms in place to resolve most issues and advocates on both sides of any dispute.


Yup.
And despite how grossly overpaid everyone here makes us out to be, I haven't run into to many starving contractors, even through this awful economy. In fact, off the top of my head, there's been more start up EC's in my local the past few years then before the downturn. 
Go figure.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

J.Dunner said:


> Yup.
> And despite how grossly overpaid everyone here makes us out to be, I haven't run into to many starving contractors, even through this awful economy. In fact, off the top of my head, there's been more start up EC's in my local the past few years then before the downturn.
> Go figure.


That might be why our market share is increasing. I think the downturn had an up spin by creating more contractors.:thumbsup:


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

Loose Neutral said:


> Our contract gives the contractor right of refusal. Not likely, but has been done.


I can spin anyone from the hall without giving a reason or paying them.


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## owl (Oct 31, 2012)

big2bird said:


> I can spin anyone from the hall without giving a reason or paying them.


With all due respect, I think that's absurd. Without giving a reason? Look, you either have the stones to tell people what the problem is (so that they can address it), or you don't. If they choose not to fix the problem, adios. 

Sending people home without reason becomes an easy smoke screen for favortism, nepotism, and excluding anyone who isn't a member of the good ol' boys club. Besides, it just plain isn't the right way to treat people.


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## sparky970 (Mar 19, 2008)

owl said:


> With all due respect, I think that's absurd. Without giving a reason? Look, you either have the stones to tell people what the problem is (so that they can address it), or you don't. If they choose not to fix the problem, adios.
> 
> Sending people home without reason becomes an easy smoke screen for favortism, nepotism, and excluding anyone who isn't a member of the good ol' boys club. Besides, it just plain isn't the right way to treat people.


Some guys don't possess the necessary skills for a particular job , others may just be trouble makers that like to stir things up, and some guys just suck


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

owl said:


> With all due respect, I think that's absurd. Without giving a reason? Look, you either have the stones to tell people what the problem is (so that they can address it), or you don't. If they choose not to fix the problem, adios.
> 
> Sending people home without reason becomes an easy smoke screen for favortism, nepotism, and excluding anyone who isn't a member of the good ol' boys club. Besides, it just plain isn't the right way to treat people.


Let me re-phrase that for you. I do not need a reason.
However, that does not mean I do not state a reason. I just don't have to.
My stones are just fine. Thank you.


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## owl (Oct 31, 2012)

I am glad you do, because that is a crappy policy.


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

owl said:


> I am glad you do, because that is a crappy policy.


Not policy. Our agreement. It's a contract.
I mainly tossed that out there for all the people that insist we harbor lazy guys. Truith be told, you give me 8 hours work for 8 hours pay, or your back to the hall. I DON'T care how bad it hurts, it's what I do.


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## sparky970 (Mar 19, 2008)

I don't understand why people think it is difficult to send someone back to the hall. I've seen plenty of 1 man lay offs, or cherry picks, if you will. If someone isn't capable, or is lazy, then get rid of them. Whether you have your own shop or work for someone else, it is about making money and providing a service. If you have someone that can't do either, why would you keep them?


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## owl (Oct 31, 2012)

big2bird said:


> Not policy. Our agreement. It's a contract.
> I mainly tossed that out there for all the people that insist we harbor lazy guys. Truith be told, you give me 8 hours work for 8 hours pay, or your back to the hall. I DON'T care how bad it hurts, it's what I do.


It's not that I have a problem in sending people back to the hall. Doing so without giving them a reason is the problem.


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## d80hunter (Apr 7, 2013)

There is a lot of wormy stuff that goes down. I been laid off over the phone on a day off, without a reason by one some fill in manager for the real one who went on vacation.


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## LanceBass (Mar 22, 2013)

Actually if an employee has had to quit another job or move to obtain the current one they can bring you to court if they're terminated. Even for "at will" employees there are a lot of legal legs to stand on if terminated. Maybe many people are unaware of this, but if you're just terminating people without providing a reason you might get a little surprise summons one of these days. Not to mention if they're black, Moslem or what have you and you send them home for no reason - goodbye pension and hello food stamps for you


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## d80hunter (Apr 7, 2013)

LanceBass said:


> Actually if an employee has had to quit another job or move to obtain the current one they can bring you to court if they're terminated. Even for "at will" employees there are a lot of legal legs to stand on if terminated. Maybe many people are unaware of this, but if you're just terminating people without providing a reason you might get a little surprise summons one of these days. Not to mention if they're black, Moslem or what have you and you send them home for no reason - goodbye pension and hello food stamps for you


 You get a termination slip so you can go sign the book. They put a reason for the termination on there, like lack off work or fired or personal reasons. Unless your fired and "not for rehire" you can take calls back to that contractor. But besides that no one tells you anything.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Heck, I have been turned around from a job because the general foreman didn't like my Hawaiian shirt. As long as it is a clean lay off I don't really care about the why. I have been doing this long enough to know that some jobs and I will not work out and if the foreman recognizes it sooner than I do, it is best for everyone.


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

big2bird said:


> Not policy. Our agreement. It's a contract.
> I mainly tossed that out there for all the people that insist we harbor lazy guys. Truith be told, you give me 8 hours work for 8 hours pay, or your back to the hall. I DON'T care how bad it hurts, it's what I do.


Now I can honestly say you treat your workers with the respect they deserve. You tell the person and they then could file suit against the contractor whom you represent. Now after hours I would say feel free to express yourself to your hearts desire is full.


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

Brother Noah said:


> Now I can honestly say you treat your workers with the respect they deserve. You tell the person and they then could file suit against the contractor whom you represent. Now after hours I would say feel free to express yourself to your hearts desire is full.


Thank you Noah. I always tried to treat the guys like I would want to be treated.


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## marksimon112 (Aug 20, 2013)

Peewee0413 said:


> You want training? Hit the road build a power plant or two. Work in a mine, and try the oil and gas... then you'll realize industrial electricians are the best...truthfully I think industrial is the hardest route and gives more knowledge. I also believe res/com guys have skills ill never have as well...


Once I graduate, I want to join the union as an apprentice Industrial Electrician. Is it possible to join the union as an industrial electrician?


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## d80hunter (Apr 7, 2013)

Peewee0413 said:


> You want training? Hit the road build a power plant or two. Work in a mine, and try the oil and gas... then you'll realize industrial electricians are the best...truthfully I think industrial is the hardest route and gives more knowledge. I also believe res/com guys have skills ill never have as well...


For the most part that is true, but I see a lot of powerhouse guys who spend years on those jobs unable to wire light fixtures with battery ballasts and or struggle on control wiring because it isn't what they were used to doing. Variety gives experience and knowledge. 

The electrician who goes in an industrial jobsite and can pipe and wire large machines in an operating plant. Power the machine, wire the controls, hang/wire the lights, coordinate all this with the customers and get called back for more work is a good damn electrician.


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## Peewee0413 (Oct 18, 2012)

d80hunter said:


> For the most part that is true, but I see a lot of powerhouse guys who spend years on those jobs unable to wire light fixtures with battery ballasts and or struggle on control wiring because it isn't what they were used to doing. Variety gives experience and knowledge.
> 
> The electrician who goes in an industrial jobsite and can pipe and wire large machines in an operating plant. Power the machine, wire the controls, hang/wire the lights, coordinate all this with the customers and get called back for more work is a good damn electrician.


I can agree...I worked for TIC for a few years. They break their guys up into groups;
Conduit/cable tray runners.
Cable/wire pullers.
Lighting and grounding 
Termination team, etc.

There's guys who can go a whole career in that company at journeyman pay not once terminating a transformer.
My brother in law terminated PLC's for years and knew nothing about them. The "term packets" says grab this cable #, this color wire, land it on this TB with this tag. 3 years later I got a crash course in PLC's and instrumentation when they upgraded a crusher in a mine. Handed me the IO list and 30 year old outdated prints and said make it work. When me and my partner noticed things didn't match the prints we traced wires up and down multiple stories opening relay logic panels the works.. (Dave T if you ever run across this post, I'm still angry you made us cut the cables to drop them down from the control room because we took too long tracing circuits building our print update)....Added a long time to the upgrade ringing out hundreds of circuits. Sucks when every circuit used the same conductor cable and colors..


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

DATE CHECK @Peewee0413


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## Peewee0413 (Oct 18, 2012)

Almost Retired said:


> DATE CHECK @Peewee0413


 Tapatalk!!!!!!!!









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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

Peewee0413 said:


> Tapatalk!!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Now you did it!!!!
You will wake up Lance Bass and bring him back to complain about everything.


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## Peewee0413 (Oct 18, 2012)

just the cowboy said:


> Now you did it!!!!
> You will wake up Lance Bass and bring him back to complain about everything.


I've had a lot I've caught and unsubscribed from...This one slipped by me...I'll get em all under control soon enough Lol.. I mean I literally got sent notifications about this same topic 5 times.. Made me think there was a discussion going on.

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