# Use of a 4sq as a pendant on a drop cord, violation?



## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

I was working for a different ec the last 2 days and we were installing drop cords and on the end was a regular 4sq with 2 duplex receptacles. Isnt that a violation? What 2008 code section should I be looking at?

~Matt

Sent from my HTC Evo using ET app.


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

400.8 (1) maybe


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

Mr Rewire said:


> 400.8 (1) maybe


:notworthy:


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

Not what I am looking for. The cord drops themselves are fine -its the type of box that I dont agree with. I thought somewhere it said you have to use a box that has hubs, not knockouts.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

TOOL_5150 said:


> Not what I am looking for. The cord drops themselves are fine -its the type of box that I dont agree with. I thought somewhere it said you have to use a box that has hubs, not knockouts.


It does but I forgot where. An FS box is the way to fly for pendants or those hubble pendant boxes.


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

Mr Rewire said:


> 400.8 (1) maybe



The code god has spoken.:notworthy:


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

TOOL_5150 said:


> Not what I am looking for. The cord drops themselves are fine -its the type of box that I dont agree with. I thought somewhere it said you have to use a box that has hubs, not knockouts.


 400.10 but that doesn't prohibit KOs


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

Mr Rewire said:


> 400.10 but that doesn't prohibit KOs


Spoken like a true professional.:notworthy:


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

314.23(H)(1) Was what I was looking for, thanks for the help :laughing:

(1) Flexible Cord. A box shall be supported from a multiconductor
cord or cable in an approved manner that protects
the conductors against strain, such as a strain-relief
connector threaded into a box with a hub.

That right there means NO 4Sq's


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

TOOL_5150 said:


> 314.23(H)(1) Was what I was looking for, thanks for the help :laughing:
> 
> (1) Flexible Cord. A box shall be supported from a multiconductor
> cord or cable in an approved manner that protects
> ...


I don't see a prohibition on 4 sq boxes,it only requires cables be protected from strain in an approved manner.did you provide strain relief in an alternate method?


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

Mr Rewire said:


> I don't see a prohibition on 4 sq boxes,it only requires cables be protected from strain in an approved manner.did you provide strain relief in an alternate method?


 
:blink:......


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

4 squares don't have threaded hubs like an FS box does.


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

Jlarson said:


> 4 squares don't have threaded hubs like an FS box does.


 are threaded hubs "one " approved method or the "only" approved method.
It reads "such as" I looked in the handbook but it has no comentary.It really doesn't say you cant do it.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

It's not just the threaded hub part, it needs to be a box approved to be supported by the hubs. A 4 square and a bell box for that mater are not approved for such use.


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## tkb (Jan 21, 2009)

OSHA will write a violation for this.
The boxes must be mounted.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Would a meyers hub be acceptable with a 4" square ? Just asking for future reference.


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## kevmanTA (Jul 20, 2010)

I've used a standard 4x4x2 1/2 with a kellem grip and passed inspection.. Depends on whose looking at it.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Shockdoc said:


> Would a meyers hub be acceptable with a 4" square ? Just asking for future reference.


IMO no, as 4" squares are still designed to be mounted to something.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

kevmanTA said:


> I've used a standard 4x4x2 1/2 with a kellem grip and passed inspection.. Depends on whose looking at it.


Here doing that may expose your customer to OSHA fines, that will usually sour the relationship.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

kevmanTA said:


> I've used a standard 4x4x2 1/2 with a kellem grip and passed inspection.. Depends on whose looking at it.


I think it's a really poor design, the KO's get pushed in or popped out entirely and the boxes get bent all to hell over time. 



And then there are the guys that use 4's with 1/2-3/4 concentrics


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## kevmanTA (Jul 20, 2010)

BBQ said:


> Here doing that may expose your customer to OSHA fines, that will usually sour the relationship.


We don't really get those kind of inspections, we have Ontario Health and Safety, but they're more worried about exit lights, hard hats, safety glasses.. That kind of stuff.


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## Lone Crapshooter (Nov 8, 2008)

A point about splitting hairs I worked for a guy that was a electrical inspector for many years back in the 50 & 60's. As a matter of fact he was at the meeting when they adopter the 3 wire outlets. 
One of the most important things he ever told me was you must ask yourself it is really dangerous, will it cause a fire ,will some one get hurt or killed. He told me that of all of the work he inspected none was 100% code compliant. He told me that he he turned allot of work down but if it was safe with in limits they would pass it. 
I guess what I am trying to say is dont sweet the small stuff but by all means make it safe. 
Or like I tell them " make it look like hands donet rather than maintenance."


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

Jlarson said:


> It's not just the threaded hub part, it needs to be a box approved to be supported by the hubs. A 4 square and a bell box for that mater are not approved for such use.


What says that a bell box is also not intended to be supported by the conduit, or a strain relief into its hub? I thought Bells were OK since they have hubs...


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

TOOL_5150 said:


> What says that a bell box is also not intended to be supported by the conduit, or a strain relief into its hub? I thought Bells were OK since they have hubs...


Not designed and not listed to be suspended by the hubs.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

TOOL_5150 said:


> What says that a bell box is also not intended to be supported by the conduit, or a strain relief into its hub? I thought Bells were OK since they have hubs...



An FS Box can be suported by conduit look in 314.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

TOOL_5150 said:


> What says that a bell box is also not intended to be supported by the conduit, or a strain relief into its hub?


The listing and labeling.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

HARRY304E said:


> An FS Box can be suported by conduit look in 314.


If it is listed for it, a typical 'bell box' is not.

Here are 'FS' / 'FD' boxes that are made to be supported by the hubs.

http://www.o-zgedney.com/PDF/OZG_AE_FSShallowFDDeepBoxes[1].pdf


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## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

It needs to be an FS box, that's the way I read it.
I do have some cords at home that have 4sqs on the end though.:whistling2:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

mattsilkwood said:


> I do have some cords at home that have 4sqs on the end though.:whistling2:


Me too ..


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

Ive seen so many times in the past, illustrations showing a bell box supported by 2 rigid conduits only, Sometimes even 1.... A conduit coming out of the ground, bell box, then 3 or 4 tier yard light. So, every installation like that is a violation...?


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## MarkyMark (Jan 31, 2009)

TOOL_5150 said:


> Ive seen so many times in the past, illustrations showing a bell box supported by 2 rigid conduits only, Sometimes even 1.... A conduit coming out of the ground, bell box, then 3 or 4 tier yard light. So, every installation like that is a violation...?


Good question. I wonder what code cycle the "hubs identified for the purpose" verbiage was first included?


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

MarkyMark said:


> Good question. I wonder what code cycle the "hubs identified for the purpose" verbiage was first included?


314.23 E, or F

....."It shall have threaded entries or have
hubs identified for the purpose."


Ok so it has to have threaded entries, so that rules out a 4Sq, a bell box had threaded entries and so does a FS box. What would be a hub identified for the purpose? Is not a hub a threaded entry?:blink:


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## redwoodk (Jun 14, 2013)

Here's a quote I received from NEMA regards whether a "Bell" box complied with 314.23(H): *"* 
*NEMA Standard FB-1* uses the word Hub in the definition of Cast Boxes (i.e. FS) to describe specifications (i.e. threads, throats, material) for *threaded conduit openings* in boxes *and* in *Hub* fittings as in #6, (Service Hub, Meyers, etc))
Technically the threaded opening are not HUBS (fittings) but *Threaded Conduit Openings* but made to the same standard as the Hub threaded openings.
*(1) Flexible Cord. *_A box shall be supported from a multiconductor cord or cable in an approved manner that protects the conductors against strain, __such as a strain-relief connector threaded into a box with a hub._ [THIS WORDING IS AN EXAMPLE OF AN Acceptable METHOD, NOT PRESCRIPTIVE. Hub may not be the only choice, a threaded opening may not be technically a hub but provides for the same purpose and use as stated in the Standard.]
This is the allowance under the ruling in 406.5 ["…securely fastened in place"] “where otherwise permitted elsewhere”
The boxes are listed for this purpose if the necessary fittings are employed. Strain relief and cord protection must be maintained under the 314.23(H) section.
This may be compression and basket grips or other acceptable means. Strain relief is for the terminations, Grips are for Conductor protection for Cords.
The use of external Threaded Conduit Openings (hubs) as in cast metal boxes or internal Threaded Conduit Openings (hubs) as in cast aluminum boxes are both suitable for pendant support."


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

I don't understand the logic there. If the cord-connector can screw into a hub that's mounted with a lock-nut, why on earth can't the cord-connector be mounted directly to the box with the same lock-nut?


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

I just posted in a zombie thread.

Hi mom! :drink:


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Big John said:


> I don't understand the logic there. If the cord-connector can screw into a hub that's mounted with a lock-nut, why on earth can't the cord-connector be mounted directly to the box with the same lock-nut?


Wait. What? You use locknuts on fs boxes?


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

Big John said:


> I don't understand the logic there. If the cord-connector can screw into a hub that's mounted with a lock-nut, why on earth can't the cord-connector be mounted directly to the box with the same lock-nut?



I got a good one. I was talking to a safety officer the other week who didn't like my homemade 4 way splitter. I made it using a 2 gang FS, cord grip connector with a strain relief kellems, and a steel double duplex cover, and a short piece of 12/3 so with a heavy duty male cord end. He was telling me this was a safety hazard and i couldn't have it since it wasn't a manufactured splitter and the box wasn't being used in its designed purpose. He said the box was designed to be mounted in place. I said we hang these threaded boxes all over the plant and it's perfectly fine. He said that I wasn't hanging it off anything and it was just laying on the floor so it was a violation. I asked him if I could use it if I hung it off a nail. He said yes. Wow


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Wait. What? You use locknuts on fs boxes?


Sure......just have to have 1-1/2" of threads!


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Wait. What? You use locknuts on fs boxes?


 No, it's just that _Redwood's_ post confused the hell out of me. I first read it to say that either an FS box or a Meyers hub was acceptable. Now I'm not sure what it says.


ponyboy said:


> ...He said that I wasn't hanging it off anything and it was just laying on the floor so it was a violation....


 Another safety yokel trying to justify his paycheck. Good ones are few and far between.


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## redwoodk (Jun 14, 2013)

*Earlier statement "Bell" boxes couldn't be used as pendants.*

I jumped in at the wrong place in the queue of responses. I have to contend with the issue of pendant receptacle outlets at almost all of my electrical safety audits in manufacturing facilities. 
During a followup inspection, initially performed by someone else, the question of whether "Bell" boxes (cast boxes with "threaded openings" rather than hubs) could be used for the pendant receptacle outlet boxes mentioned in 314.23(H) became a hotly contested issue. I went about researching the issue. My UL contact deferred me be to NEMA explaining there was no UL standard specific to pendant receptacle outlets. My NEMA contact, as quoted earlier was okay with using "Bell" boxes for pendant applications.


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## oliquir (Jan 13, 2011)

Big John said:


> I don't understand the logic there. If the cord-connector can screw into a hub that's mounted with a lock-nut, why on earth can't the cord-connector be mounted directly to the box with the same lock-nut?


just beacuase a standard box is made to be supported by wall fixing, not by the cord connector, the box may bend or broke. Fs box are a lot stronger and wont bend


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## millelec (Nov 20, 2010)

*a little off topic, but interesting...*

googling stuff, came up with this info on the inventor of the Kellem's grip...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vivien_Kellems


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