# Fishing walls?



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Haley said:


> I just looked at a project that requires a lot of fishing wire through walls in a 100 year old house. I think the job is mine if I want it, but I need to get it done fast, so I can move on. Usually,I spend too much time on this kind of projects. Any tips?


Only one. CHARGE LARGE.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Run. There is no getting it done fast unless you have help who is very experienced doing this.

Also, price it twice as much as you first though.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Not really, anything that involves snaking/fishing is going to be very time consuming and tedious, even with a few of the labor saving gadgets out there. I've done a lot of it over my career and have never really found ways to shave much time off of it, other than just having a working knowledge of framing methods in my area. We have furring strips and balloon framing in many old houses here so that helps us a lot, but it's still slow work no matter how you look at it.

If you have a lot of it to do, having two experienced electricians is essential. One guy by himself can do it but expect it to take double or triple the amount of time.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Haley said:


> I just looked at a project that requires a lot of fishing wire through walls in a 100 year old house. I think the job is mine if I want it, but I need to get it done fast, so I can move on. Usually,I spend too much time on this kind of projects. Any tips?


Not really due there is too many variation of the type of construction on the house in that era plus over the years the remodeling can throw ya off the track if not aware of it.

Ya cant really going super fast unless you know few good spot where you can hit pretty quick.

I rather try to hit the inside walls first before exteral walls ( but watch out the inside wall thickness some case they are not really thick so just beaware of it)


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## Haley (Oct 3, 2017)

Most of these old houses are balloon framed with horizontal cross bracies in the walls, on stone foundations.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Haley said:


> Most of these old houses are balloon framed with horizontal cross bracies in the walls, on stone foundations.


Horizontal braces don't mess me up much, it's those diagonal ones made with a long uncut wood shaped like an x that pisses me off every time. They suck.


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## 3DDesign (Oct 25, 2014)

I usually figure that two guys can install 6-8 outlets in an eight hour day.
By outlets, I mean receptacles, switches, lights, etc. If you get one an hour, you're doing well.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

3DDesign said:


> I usually figure that two guys can install 6-8 outlets in an eight hour day.
> By outlets, I mean receptacles, switches, lights, etc. If you get one an hour, you're doing well.


That's kinda funny to me , cause I always set my goal for ten by myself. But I dig what you are saying here.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

3DDesign said:


> I usually figure that two guys can install 6-8 outlets in an eight hour day.
> By outlets, I mean receptacles, switches, lights, etc. If you get one an hour, you're doing well.



Are you talking about rewiring existing locations or installing from scratch?


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## 3DDesign (Oct 25, 2014)

macmikeman said:


> That's kinda funny to me , cause I always set my goal for ten by myself. But I dig what you are saying here.


I bid at six per day, hope for eight and make good money at ten.
Eight is my average. That includes drop clothes, moving furniture, vacuuming and being very neat about it.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

3DDesign said:


> I bid at six per day, hope for eight and make good money at ten.
> Eight is my average. That includes drop clothes, moving furniture, vacuuming and being very neat about it.



Well excuuuuuuuse me, I do all the same stuff. Hey, with rewires I don't always get ten, I just shoot for ten. I been known to come home late before...


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## Haley (Oct 3, 2017)

The low crawl spaces kill my time. 6 river rock high


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Haley said:


> I just looked at a project that requires a lot of fishing wire through walls in a 100 year old house. I think the job is mine if I want it, but I need to get it done fast, so I can move on. Usually,I spend too much time on this kind of projects. Any tips?


You are guaranteed to spend too much time on this job.

You are also at the cusp of the transition from balloon framing to platform framing.

But even more important, it's MOST unlikely that the whole structure is a century old.

Figure on it being a mix of balloon and platform framing -- and that (original build) exterior walls are now interior walls. These will prove to be an absolute nightmare to fish in.

Beyond that, it's a certainty that the project would benefit from a down-to-the-studs re-hab.

NO WAY is the insulation remotely up to standard... ditto everything else.

Other than (perhaps) a few 'beauty rooms' ( entry parlor, etc.) every wall should be opened up entirely.

Re-sheeting is so cheap that it pays for your ticket... and then some.


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## The_Modifier (Oct 24, 2009)

Haley said:


> I just looked at a project that requires a lot of fishing wire through walls in a 100 year old house. I think the job is mine if I want it, but I need to get it done fast, so I can move on. Usually,I spend too much time on this kind of projects. Any tips?


Congrats(?)

I think that the search feature may lead you to a lot more information in this forum as some of the specialists have either left the site or passed away.

Here are a few links I found

*Knob and Tube*

Specifically *THIS* post for tools.


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## active1 (Dec 29, 2009)

Besides what was said, don't forget that the walls may be wood lath plaster. 
The plaster is hard like a rock. The wood lath nails pop loose if using a recip saw.
It can cause big chunks of plaster to break loose or just cracks forming. 
Rotozip or other tool may be better. 
I don't know of any blade that can cut more than 1 wood lath plaster hole.
Just saying it's more time consuming to cut these and easy to cause damage.
Be a good exclusion of wall damage repair.

Something else I seen on old homes is on the outside wall they fill in between the 1st floor joists with bricks and or mortar (maybe stone in your case). Preventing a simple hole drilled on all outside walls to the basement (or crawl).


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

A reciprocating saw on plaster sucks. Use an oscillating tool with grit blades. It cuts well and doesn't disturb the wall too much.


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## drewsserviceco (Aug 1, 2014)

HackWork said:


> A reciprocating saw on plaster sucks. Use an oscillating tool with grit blades. It cuts well and doesn't disturb the wall too much.



If the job allows for the mess, I've found a grinder with diamond wheel works the best (will even cut the lathe also). Sometimes if I can seal off the area with plastic and use fans for negative pressure I'll use it even if the job isn't in full on reno/demo mode.


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## SummitElectric1 (Aug 8, 2016)

Haley said:


> I just looked at a project that requires a lot of fishing wire through walls in a 100 year old house. I think the job is mine if I want it, but I need to get it done fast, so I can move on. Usually,I spend too much time on this kind of projects. Any tips?


Tip #1 as many other members have posted above: Quote the project high enough to guarantee that you will make money no matter what happens.

Tip #2 posted previously as well: It will take you at least twice as long as you think it will. Plan accordingly.

Tip #3 also previously posted: Have the right tools. The_Modifier posted some great links to posts applicable to your situation. A few minutes searching here will likely yield more posts that you can learn from.

Have you ever done a project like this in a 100 year old home?

There are usually two reasons that a homeowner or GC will want to have the new circuits fished versus opening the walls...

1. It is cheaper for them. Make sure to charge enough for the project that your effort and skill in fishing the wires is adequately compensated. It is not cheap to open and restore plaster walls in an old home and it should therefore also not be cheap to fish new wires into an old wall.

2. They don't want to know what is behind the walls and deal with other problems that may be revealed by opening the walls. This again is where the homeowner or GC thinks that having an electrician fish new wires will be less expensive. Fishing wires may be less expensive, but don't let their problem affect your profitability. To install new circuits in old walls without damaging the home requires the right experience, the right tools, and a fair amount of luck. If you possess all three then you should get paid well. If you don't have all three you will lose money and likely more.

The fastest way to install new circuits into walls in a 100 year old house is with two electricians that have years of experience working together doing exactly that. Knowledge of construction techniques in the era the home was constructed as well as the decades since when there were likely remodels or additions are essential. The ability to recognize, before cutting or drilling any holes, that an interior wall was an exterior wall 60 years ago will make or break your project.

If the two electricians working together on the old home communicate and work together well it can be very profitable. However, if the measurement relayed from the guy in the finished space gets lost in translation to the guy laying on the dead rat in the crawl space and a drill bit comes up a couple of inches off and makes a hole in a 100+ year old original heart-pine floor then your job is sunk.

I love working in old homes and I have had the privilege of working in many historic homes in my career. i enjoy the challenge of updating the electrical systems in historic homes while being able to maintain the architectural integrity and details of the original construction. If somebody wants to rush a job like that my company is not going to be a good fit. It always takes as long as it takes to do it right.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

*"The ability to recognize, before cutting or drilling holes, that an interior wall was an exterior wall 60 years ago will make or break your project."*

That's the heartbreaker.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

There's a lot of good advice above. Couple remarks. 

Doubling the amount of time you think it will take really might not be enough. 

I'd at least consider checking the outside walls as part of your survey to see if it's uninsulated balloon framing with no fire blocking. Those are very easy to fish. You can literally drop a quarter between the studs in the attic and go down in the basement and find it on the floor. 

The other thing to check with balloon framing is whether you can get down a wall from the ceiling without going through a top plate. 

If you have those two things - not really rare around here - you actually have an easy job. 

Be smart about the wall patching. You're probably not going to achieve this with zero wall patching. Consider the difference in price paying a plaster / drywall guy to patch the smallest / fewest possible holes to make it possible and making enough holes that it's easy. Don't spend 40 hours to save a drywall guy 4 hours.


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## SummitElectric1 (Aug 8, 2016)

telsa said:


> *"The ability to recognize, before cutting or drilling holes, that an interior wall was an exterior wall 60 years ago will make or break your project."*
> 
> That's the heartbreaker.


And the budget breaker too.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Study this diagram a bit and you'll see what I'm saying about some of these are actually pretty easy...


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

I'm going to agree with the guys that said charge large.

There is nothing fast about working on 100 year old houses/buildings.

In addition to diagonal bracing I find many here with brick lined stud bays.

Take your time and do what needs to be done but charge well for your time.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Haley said:


> I just looked at a project that requires a lot of fishing wire through walls in a 100 year old house. I think the job is mine if I want it, but I need to get it done fast, so I can move on. Usually,I spend too much time on this kind of projects. Any tips?


BTW, pop in some old episodes of This Old House.

Cost overruns were common as dust for that elite crew.

Even TOH was shocked when they ran into interior walls that had been exterior walls.


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## active1 (Dec 29, 2009)

A pic off the internet to give you an idea of wood lath plaster.
You may first ask why such a big hole in the wall for 2 boxes.
Like I said if your cutting and the wood lath that supports the plaster comes loose it's all over. Plaster is more like a brick where it's easy for a larger piece to break out.
Not saying it will happen. Depends on your luck and skill. Just that it could.
The nails used to hold the lath in pop out easy. The lath is holding a lot of weight. IMO the plaster helps hold these old houses together. Remove one section of plaster and the next will want to follow. Remove the ceiling and the floor above will get real spungy.

http://img2-2.timeinc.net/toh/i/step-by-step/12/10-wall/01-repair-plaster.jpg








http://https://i.ytimg.com/vi/eXuMwyB5Pp4/maxresdefault.jpg


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## StriickeN (Sep 11, 2017)

Another PITA with plaster/lathe walls is that a lot of the time they used chicken wire (or thicker wire mesh around the chimneys) to hold the mud that went on before the plaster.. That demolishes blades/bits pretty quickly.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

On lathe and plaster walls I use steel device boxes (also known as gem boxes. That way you are only cutting all the way through 1 piece of lathe. I pencil the outline of the box, and chip it away gently using a screwdriver as a chisel. I make a small square in the middle to verify i am centering the box height on a piece of lathe, and adjust as necessary. A sharp multi tool blade, and not cutting all the way through one side of the lathe before you cut most of the way through the other side minimizes vibration and loosening of the plaster. Then 4 #4 wood screws hold the box to the lathe. Flappy old work boxes tend to grab the plaster that pokes between the lathe and pop it out, loosening tye plaster and causing holes. We hardly ever need anything patched using this method. I can usually do 8-10 a day unless there is angled fire blocking to deal with, and then with having to hook to fishes together and such on the wall by myself drops me to 4 a day.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Going_Commando said:


> On lathe and plaster walls I use steel device boxes (also known as gem boxes. That way you are only cutting all the way through 1 piece of lathe. I pencil the outline of the box, and chip it away gently using a screwdriver as a chisel. I make a small square in the middle to verify i am centering the box height on a piece of lathe, and adjust as necessary. A sharp multi tool blade, and not cutting all the way through one side of the lathe before you cut most of the way through the other side minimizes vibration and loosening of the plaster. Then 4 #4 wood screws hold the box to the lathe. Flappy old work boxes tend to grab the plaster that pokes between the lathe and pop it out, loosening tye plaster and causing holes. We hardly ever need anything patched using this method. I can usually do 8-10 a day unless there is angled fire blocking to deal with, and then with having to hook to fishes together and such on the wall by myself drops me to 4 a day.


Yeah, what he said. Metal boxes are a must for old work. You can only get away with plastic old work boxes if the plaster is not disintegrating, which is usually never.


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## StriickeN (Sep 11, 2017)

Iv had pretty good luck with using plastic old work boxes, iv only had the plaster shatter on me once (knock on wood). Im used to working with it though.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I only use plastic as well. I will usually cut the hole next to a stud and screw a One-Box to the stub to hold it firmly.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> I only use plastic as well. I will usually cut the hole next to a stud and screw a One-Box to the stub to hold it firmly.


That's not always possible, hence the need for metal.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MTW said:


> That's not always possible, hence the need for metal.


Nope, not need for metal.

Gray plastic slater/P&S oldwork boxes when not attaching to the stud. 

Metal boxes are small and silly.


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## StriickeN (Sep 11, 2017)

Iv never had a problem with the plastic ones. Im new to the trade though so who knows what i'll come across in the future lol.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

If you get the less than standard 2x4 depth, then you may be into metal. Up here the framing comes in all kinds of wierd depths. Smarts or sliders to the stud work well when you can do it. Remember all these metal and plastic boxes cost a fair bit more than the average nail on. It takes time and skill to do this without a ton of mess. Sometimes if the plaster is really crumbly, you can't avoid it at all. I like the rotozip with two different bits. Plaster bit for the plaster and the wood bit for the wood. Doesn't put much pressure on anything.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

GEM boxes are SO much more flexible.

They are also immaterial as a cost factor. 

I'm amazed that ANYONE would raise that as an issue.

These jobs are 94% labor. 

Boxes represent about 0.5% the job cost.

Your mind is not wired right if you're focused on them.

EVERYTHING has to be oriented towards labor -- damage control -- ease of install -- and so forth.

The ears on a GEM box can be flipped every which way.

You just don't have that with plastic -- any of them. They are what they are.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

telsa said:


> GEM boxes are SO much more flexible.
> 
> They are also immaterial as a cost factor.
> 
> ...


Oh you sold me, I can flip the ears on metal boxes every which way. How great. No more plastic boxes for me.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> Nope, not need for metal.
> 
> Gray plastic slater/P&S oldwork boxes when not attaching to the stud.
> 
> Metal boxes are small and silly.


I defer to your awesomeness. 

I prefer metal because the ears have more contact area with the plaster. There is very little margin with the plastic old work boxes especially when dealing with brittle plaster. The metal ears add an extra margin of safety that the box will actually have something to grab onto. 

I'll only entertain the idea of a plastic box if the plaster is in really good shape.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

telsa said:


> GEM boxes are SO much more flexible.
> 
> They are also immaterial as a cost factor.
> 
> ...



See, this guy knows.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

I keep forgetting, how many e-men don't comprehend that the ears on a GEM box can be reversed...

That they can be set to ANY practical plaster depth.

They naturally anchor to lath... if done so... and can then be set to the depth required for a suitable sweet repair.

NONE of that happens in plastic.

Tell me... how much are you really saving with plastic ?

That's right, you're losing your azz.

You're doing hand stands to make plastic old-work boxes 'anchor' to plaster.

Good luck with that.

&&&

BTW, here's a trick...

NEVER cut through lath -- ever.

Cut most of the way through -- and then use your Kliens to twist out the final linkage. Yes, rotate the lath through 75 degrees to and fro until it gives it up. Then you're dealing with mere strands of lath. You can then snap clean through them with your Kleins *****.

This will stop the lath from bouncing all over creation -- and shattering the plaster nearby in so doing.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

HackWork said:


> Oh you sold me, I can flip the ears on metal boxes every which way. How great. No more plastic boxes for me.


FINALLY, you've been brought around to the Light. :thumbsup:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Who said that they use plastic to save money???


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

So, you use plastic to RUN UP your tab.

Got that.

It's recorded.

Thanks.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

telsa said:


> So, you use plastic to RUN UP your tab.
> 
> Got that.
> 
> ...


Good. Ignore all the actual benefits while pulling some silly thing out of your butt. Good job.


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## The_Modifier (Oct 24, 2009)

StriickeN said:


> Another PITA with plaster/lathe walls is that a lot of the time they used chicken wire (or thicker wire mesh around the chimneys) to hold the mud that went on before the plaster.. That demolishes blades/bits pretty quickly.


Try using a grout blade on your oscillating tool. :thumbsup:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

The_Modifier said:


> Try using a grout blade on your oscillating tool. :thumbsup:


Yup. Grit blades work great and don't dull.

Last week I used a grit holesaw on a plaster ceiling. I didn't even realize that it had metal mesh in it until I was halfway thru and saw the mesh cut smooth in the plugs I cut out. 

Grit really works well. And on low speed in an oscillating tool it cuts plaster without crumbling it.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

The last time I cut into a plaster/lathe wall was ... circa 1978. 

Man I'm glad I don't do that stuff. I was pretty good at it back then, just using a drill (corded) and keyhole saw.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

I just prefer metal boxes for plaster/lathe jobs hands down, the adjustability of the ears is just an added bonus..


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## StriickeN (Sep 11, 2017)

The_Modifier said:


> Try using a grout blade on your oscillating tool. :thumbsup:


Noted :thumbsup:


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

HackWork said:


> Who said that they use plastic to save money???


Hack...

You are so hopelessly argumentative that you not only contradict your own posts -- but all logic.

WHEN does it ever pay for an EC to install loser materials ?

Loser is defined as UNNECESSARY cost outlays.

It's established in this thread that GEM boxes are the cat's pajamas for lath and plaster.

Here and there, sure, sometimes a plastic old-work box will pencil out.

But, it's not something to count on.

Boxes represent ~ 1% of the cost of an installation... If that is not true... something is REALLY wrong.

I certainly won't hesitate to toss this or that Carlon box into the fray -- but I don't imagine I'll ever show up with even one. 

I know -- for a certainty -- that GEM boxes will see me through.

Why in the WORLD would I'd show up with a marginal item ?

You're telling us that you're infatuated with an extremely marginal item -- whereas -- a GEM box will cover 100% of old work in plaster and lath.

Play that out to the newbies.

The fact that a GEM box is a tighter fit -- is a blessing in Old Work.

It's more than enough to squeeze in even a GFCI -- which I'd hate to attempt unless the GEM is deep. 

( Heaven save us. I'd do hand springs to avoid such a situation: an ordinary GEM box and a GFCI. I can't recall a one. )


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

telsa said:


> HackWork said:
> 
> 
> > Who said that they use plastic to save money???
> ...


 I don't know what's worse, the fact that YOU have the audacity to call me argumentative, or that you say I am contradicting myself without pointing out any actual contradiction that I have posted.

You made an assumption that people only use plastic boxes to save money, I asked where you got that idea from. Above is your only answer. Do you see the problem?



> It's established in this thread that GEM boxes are the cat's pajamas for lath and plaster.


 It hasn't been "established". Some people have merely given their opinion that they like metal boxes better for plaster and lath.. Many of us have the opinion that plastic is better.



> You're telling us that you're infatuated with an extremely marginal item -- whereas -- a GEM box will cover 100% of old work in plaster and lath.


 Plastic boxes cover 100% of old work in plaster and lath. And There are far more houses here with plaster than with drywall. Some houses I work in were built before Commifornia even existed.

I have a few of each type of metal box in my truck, but I haven't used them in a house for any reason (other than when running MC) in 5+ years.



> It's more than enough to squeeze in even a GFCI -- which I'd hate to attempt unless the GEM is deep.


 It's really not "more than enough" space. A metal gem box is way smaller than it needs to be, especially for devices like GFCI's, USB receptacles, timers, dimmers, etc. That's one of the major advantages of plastic boxes. Work smarter, not harder. 

Now tell me where I contradicted myself.


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## drewsserviceco (Aug 1, 2014)

HackWork said:


> It's really not "more than enough" space. A metal gem box is way smaller than it needs to be, especially for devices like GFCI's, USB receptacles, timers, dimmers, etc. That's one of the major advantages of plastic boxes.



Space is the main advantage quickly followed by the ease of cutting the simple rectangle versus the goofy shape and repeated fit testing of the metal box (for me anyway).


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

drewsserviceco said:


> Space is the main advantage quickly followed by the ease of cutting the simple rectangle versus the goofy shape and repeated fit testing of the metal box (for me anyway).


Agreed. Being able to make a clean rectangular hole without cutting the 4 extra notches (which lead to crumbling plaster that can be seen around the plate) is another reason I like plastic boxes.

I was going to go into explaining my reasons once telsa got the cost thing out of his head, but he never did.


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## active1 (Dec 29, 2009)

To me it seemed like the metal mesh came after the wood mesh. Also seen on corners.
I would guess:
Up to 1920's wood mesh plaster
Between 1920's and 1950's metal mesh plaster
Early 1950's to early 1960s Narrow sheets of drywall, maybe 2' with plaster on top
Past early 1960's Normal drywall
Don't know when the damp location drywall came out, 1970's?
Started seeing mold resistant drywall at some stores in the last 10 years

Another good point is it's hard to judge a walls framing thickness by finished outside diameter because the wood and plaster adds more than normal. They do have some 2x2 & 2x3 internal walls. Herd some 1 story homes were built with 2x3's, but don't remember if I seen it. Add to that that back in the day a 2x4 actually measures 2"x4".

It would make a difference if the home is empty / under rehab vs finished, furnished, with people living there. Just cause that plaster is messy.

Out here I'm starting to see the contractor board is concerned with, has information about, and warnings about cutting walls with lead paint. Not saying I herd anyone get in trouble or take special precautions. Lot of this area was built after 1980. But I can imagine one day cutting into a wall older than 1979 will call for a hazmat type environment.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I have found that the years are all over the place. I can lookup any house online to see the year it was built, but the type of interior wall sheathing is often different than what I was expecting.



active1 said:


> Between 1920's and 1950's metal mesh plaster
> Early 1950's to early 1960s Narrow sheets of drywall, maybe 2' with plaster on top


A lot of the houses around here, including my condo and one of the houses I own, have that old "gypsum lath". But they have metal mesh in the ceiling.

The gypsum lath was usually 4' long by 16" wide and 3/8" thick pieces of gypsum board. Then they went over it with plaster. Or in the case of my places, 1 coat of a hard plaster that seems like it has little rocks in it, then a thin scratch coat of white soft plaster that seems more like today's spackle.

This is not nearly as easy to work on as drywall since it's very hard, but it is much better than plaster and wood lath.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

It's at the point that I get all happy when I get to work somewhere that has drywall. 

I tape a bag to the wall, pull out the jabsaw, and 30 seconds later I have a perfectly cut hole without a spec of dust. Not power tools and vacuums. No loud noises. No drop cloths and plastic all over the place. No hating life when a big chunk of plaster falls out.


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