# Wow arc this



## PureElectric (Aug 5, 2011)

I installed arc fault breakers in a small remodel job in Northern California. They are required by many insurances companys in residential homes, thats the new trend. Well the arc fault kept tripping on home owner when he plugged in his VINTAGE KIRBY vacuum. Their was a short in the bulb, it had a loose connection . It was "vintage", I plugged in my hole hog and ran it wide open, wow it didnt trip because it didnt have a short. He suggested that it never had this problem before. I got that "look". So as soon as it was inspected I installed regular breakers, crediting him for the arc fault; problem solved. Their will be many call backs because of the invention of arc faults. Electricians job security.:thumbsup:


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## SparkYZ (Jan 20, 2010)

You're gonna get hammered by the other guys for that....


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

The AFCI breaker didn't open because the old Kirby had a short. It opened because it detected an _arc fault_.

If either the Kirby or your Hole Hog had a short, *either breaker* would have opened the circuit.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

SparkYZ said:


> You're gonna get hammered by the other guys for that....


Why?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

HARRY304E said:


> Why?



Lessee.............. AFCIs are required........ customer has appliance that came over on Mayflower that trips it......... OP takes out AFCI breaker after inspection and installs regular breaker (and gives customer credit for removed ACFI breaker) to 'solve' the issue.......... most likely didn't consider the legal or liability consequences............


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## SparkYZ (Jan 20, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Lessee.............. AFCIs are required........ customer has appliance that came over on Mayflower that trips it......... OP takes out AFCI breaker after inspection and installs regular breaker (and gives customer credit for removed ACFI breaker) to 'solve' the issue.......... most likely didn't consider the legal or liability consequences............


Exactly, Ken.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

SparkYZ said:


> You're gonna get hammered by the other guys for that....


Not me......first wind of any customer complaints those infertile pieces of sh1t get removed.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Shockdoc said:


> Not me......first wind of any customer complaints those infertile pieces of sh1t get removed.



Yeah, heaven forbid you should even attempt to be a professional and actually figure out if there's a real cause for them tripping. :no:

Sometimes AFCI's actually detect real wiring problems, which I know is impossible since electricians never make mistakes. 

Oh, and it's "infernal", not "infertile."


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Peter D said:


> Yeah, heaven forbid you should even attempt to be a professional and actually figure out if there's a real cause for them tripping. :no:
> 
> Sometimes AFCI's actually detect real wiring problems, which I know is impossible since electricians never make mistakes.


Yeah, let me dissect the customers LCD TV, vacuum, the gas F/P exhaust fan to find the fault. Where's that pic of the SQ D AFCI with the melted wire attached to the terminal ? A real professional shouldn't second guess and troubleshoot his work. Prove that an AFCI has prevented a fire by means of arcing, show me the proof that they work other than nuisance tripping for normal loads.:whistling2:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Amazing how so many of you are so much more educated that the sum total of UL, NFPA and all the rest.

If your theory of "AFCI's don't work", then submit a proposal for the '14 to have them removed. There's still plenty of time, but you won't need much because you have all the documentation needed, right?


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Amazing how so many of you are so much more educated that the sum total of UL, NFPA and all the rest.
> 
> If your theory of "AFCI's don't work", then submit a proposal for the '14 to have them removed. There's still plenty of time, but you won't need much because you have all the documentation needed, right?


 I'm not on their payroll from the manufacturers and big business. To date no proof or riveting stories on how they prevented a fire exist.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

I've said it before, but I've never seen an AFCI trip where the result turned out to be an arcing fault. I've found many ground faults, and a couple of bad ACFIs that would trip on any load regardless.

OP probably had a ground-fault in the appliance and did the customer a disservice by ignoring it, but I still think AFCIs are a crock.

-John


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

The only problems I've ever seen is they reveal the mistakes of the previous electrician. Mostly neutrals from different circuits together. Once I found one feed-out on plug circuit that tripped the afci only when a vacuum was plugged in. It was an easy fix. Pull a new wire and eliminate what I figures was a staple problem.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Shockdoc said:


> I'm not on their payroll from the manufacturers and big business. To date no proof or riveting stories on how they prevented a fire exist.



I don't smoke..... prove that's prevented a house fire at my place.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Big John said:


> I
> OP probably had a ground-fault in the appliance and did the customer a disservice by ignoring it, but I still think AFCIs are a crock.
> 
> -John


I am far from a fan of AFCI's, but we are stuck with them and have to deal with them and they are not going away. They're a "necessary evil" now. Might as well make the best of it.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Proof exist that Smoke detectors have saved lives, GFCIs have averted fatal electricution, It's been ten years and only a majority of complaints of nuisance tripping and a few instances of them NOT tripping for arcing have arose.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

So take your 'lack of empirical data' facts to the NFPA and get AFCI's booted out of the NEC. How hard can it be?


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

480sparky said:


> So take your 'lack of empirical data' facts to the NFPA and get AFCI's booted out of the NEC. How hard can it be?


Facts don't mean anything today in this once a great nation, only money talks.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

SparkYZ said:


> You're gonna get hammered by the other guys for that....


I doubt anyone here will waste time on a troll.


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## te12co2w (Jun 3, 2007)

I would like to see a study about the effectiveness of AFCIs at preventing home fires. I have asked insurance companies and haven't been shown anything. I have tried to find something on fire prevention sites, but didn't find anything. Someone should be tracking this, but who?


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Siemens makes an Arc-fault diagnostics tool and it works. $500 but well worth it. 
He should get hammered for removing the arc faults because that is as hack as it gets. Are you an electrician or a handyman?


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## Amish Electrician (Jan 2, 2010)

Of course money talks .... mine is usually saying 'good bye.' :laughing: 
OP 'fails" in trouble shooting. 

What's next? Replacing the obviously faulty fuses with pennies?


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

Amish Electrician said:


> What's next? Replacing the obviously faulty fuses with pennies?


Might as well... that fixes it, right? :whistling2:


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## PureElectric (Aug 5, 2011)

PureElectric said:


> I installed arc fault breakers in a small remodel job in Northern California. They are required by many insurances companys in residential homes, thats the new trend. Well the arc fault kept tripping on home owner when he plugged in his VINTAGE KIRBY vacuum. Their was a short in the bulb, it had a loose connection . It was "vintage", I plugged in my hole hog and ran it wide open, wow it didnt trip because it didnt have a short. He suggested that it never had this problem before. I got that "look". So as soon as it was inspected I installed regular breakers, crediting him for the arc fault; problem solved. Their will be many call backs because of the invention of arc faults. Electricians job security.:thumbsup:





sbrn33 said:


> Siemens makes an Arc-fault diagnostics tool and it works. $500 but well worth it.
> He should get hammered for removing the arc faults because that is as hack as it gets. Are you an electrician or a handyman?


I havent had problems with 99.9 percent arc faults installed. this was more or a person problem then an installation problem. I wrote up a document to clear me for any wrongful doing. I should have put more info on thread. next time.


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## swimmer (Mar 19, 2011)

te12co2w said:


> I would like to see a study about the effectiveness of AFCIs at preventing home fires. I have asked insurance companies and haven't been shown anything. I have tried to find something on fire prevention sites, but didn't find anything. Someone should be tracking this, but who?


I'd like to get some real statistics on fires caused by wiring in general. Firemen around here site grease fires and candles.
Electrical fire stories that I hear always have holes in them and I never hear them from electricians. I open lots of non-compliant Al / Cu splices where the wires and devices are arched and cooked and there is discoloration on the romex but I've never seen where fire made it out of the outlet box and into the wall and many of these boxes have gaps and unplugged knock outs.


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## nhanson (Apr 17, 2010)

TOOL_5150 said:


> Might as well... that fixes it, right? :whistling2:


or putting a double the size fuse in

had a customer that we did a service upgrade for have a 30 A fuse servicing 14 gauges:blink:

Panel was old enough not to have the safety deal for the wrong type of fuse


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

te12co2w said:


> I would like to see a study about the effectiveness of AFCIs at preventing home fires. I have asked insurance companies and haven't been shown anything. I have tried to find something on fire prevention sites, but didn't find anything. Someone should be tracking this, but who?


Nobody cares , big business cashes in, everyone on the ladder is paid. You'll keep getting the same old song and dance no matter who or how many you ask.


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## sfeyelectric (Dec 31, 2010)

swimmer said:


> I'd like to get some real statistics on fires caused by wiring in general. Firemen around here site grease fires and candles.
> Electrical fire stories that I hear always have holes in them and I never hear them from electricians. I open lots of non-compliant Al / Cu splices where the wires and devices are arched and cooked and there is discoloration on the romex but I've never seen where fire made it out of the outlet box and into the wall and many of these boxes have gaps and unplugged knock outs.


I can tell you having 20yrs in the fire service, and 16 as a captain, that there are plenty of fires caused by electrical causes. One a guy kept resetting main breaker, Killed his two kids and his mother!


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## watts77 (Dec 3, 2010)

have had this problem a few times. found out there is a problem with vacuum cleaners that causes afci breakers to trip. we actually have a letter from our supply house that says this is a factory defect so we can show our customers


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## Modern Castle Inc. (Nov 9, 2011)

I am an Electrical Inspector for the State Fire Marshall. Basically I keep the troopers from having to say "yup, that was an electrical fire" in court. I have done many inspections of fires caused by electrical. everything from bad splices to over sized fuses. I applied for the job because I was sick of the stories about the unfounded fire being deemed electrical because there was nothing else to blame. 5 years later, I have learned 2 things: 1. homeowners should not do their own wiring. 2. There are some really bad electricians.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Modern Castle Inc. said:


> I am an Electrical Inspector for the State Fire Marshall. Basically I keep the troopers from having to say "yup, that was an electrical fire" in court. I have done many inspections of fires caused by electrical. everything from bad splices to over sized fuses. I applied for the job because I was sick of the stories about the unfounded fire being deemed electrical because there was nothing else to blame. 5 years later, I have learned 2 things: 1. homeowners should not do their own wiring. 2. There are some really bad electricians.



I once recall watching a news broadcast showing a farmhouse that was destroyed by fire. It has an old, abandoned house out in the boonies that had set empty for 12 years. Even before the fire was out, the FD chief commented, _on-camera no less_, he didn't know why the fire started since the electricity had been turned off.

WTH? :001_huh:



BTW: _Marsha*ll* _is a name, _marsha*l*_ is a title. I remember this quite well because we used to have a fire marshal named Roy Marshall.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

480sparky said:


> The AFCI breaker didn't open because the old Kirby had a short. It opened because it detected an _arc fault_.
> 
> If either the Kirby or your Hole Hog had a short, *either breaker* would have opened the circuit.


While this may be true it does not necessarily mean the vacuum has a problem. The arc signature in many afci cannot deal with all the variables. I had a problem with a GE afci tripping. There was absolutely nothing wrong. I changed to an older vintage AFCI- it was still a combo unit- and the problem was solved. 

This is why I say it is not always a problem with the units but sometimes an issue with the afci signatures.


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## Modern Castle Inc. (Nov 9, 2011)

> BTW: _Marsha*ll* _is a name, _marsha*l*_ is a title. I remember this quite well because we used to have a fire marshal named Roy Marshall.


:laughing:

I once did an inspection on a 1950s cape that had 1 20amp ckt running to the second floor. The homeowners grandson had replaced the 20 amp fuse with a 30 because the air conditioner and 2 1000W grow lights he was using kept blowing the fuse. He lost all his pot the grandmother lost her house...


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## LARMGUY (Aug 22, 2010)

PureElectric said:


> I havent had problems with 99.9 percent arc faults installed. this was more or a person problem then an installation problem. I wrote up a document to clear me for any wrongful doing. I should have put more info on thread. next time.


How does a hand written document clear you from the electrical code?


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

PureElectric said:


> I havent had problems with 99.9 percent arc faults installed. this was more or a person problem then an installation problem. I wrote up a document to clear me for any wrongful doing. I should have put more info on thread. next time.





LARMGUY said:


> How does a hand written document clear you from the electrical code?


You can't write up a document that absolves you of the requirement to install AFCI breakers. The code requires them and if you remove them after the inspection then you can be found guilty of unprofessional conduct and in most states could loose your electrical license.

Chris


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