# WTF these Arc-fault breakers!!



## 480sparky

When you rough the place in, you need to megger out all the circuits. That will identify the problems that may get covered up by the walls, like damaged cables, over-driven staples and the like.

Meg them out again before you start trimming out to make sure someone hasn't driven a nail or screw into the cable.

Then start trimming out.

If you have a circuit that keeps tripping an AFCI, you need to start troubleshooting it. Is it ANY load that trips it, or a specific load? Will that load trip if plugged into another circuit?


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## Dennis Alwon

I have used GE for many years and have been installing the combo arc faults for some time and never had a problem.

I seem to recall that sq.D had a big problem in the Denver area and they discovered that the problem was related to the power company signature voltage. Apparently the sine wave was flattened at the top which caused havoc on the arc faults.


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## leland

480sparky said:


> When you rough the place in, you need to megger out all the circuits. That will identify the problems that may get covered up by the walls, like damaged cables, over-driven staples and the like.
> 
> Meg them out again before you start trimming out to make sure someone hasn't driven a nail or screw into the cable.
> 
> Then start trimming out.
> 
> If you have a circuit that keeps tripping an AFCI, you need to start troubleshooting it. Is it ANY load that trips it, or a specific load? Will that load trip if plugged into another circuit?



Is this really feasible? ow you must 'complete' the ckt on rough?
How much time (read money) does this add to the already over-tight job?

Great to do do,document,makes back charge a lot easier.

Good Idea,but in practical application?


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## ampman

leland said:


> Is this really feasible? ow you must 'complete' the ckt on rough?
> How much time (read money) does this add to the already over-tight job?
> 
> Great to do do,document,makes back charge a lot easier.
> 
> Good Idea,but in practical application?


 megger the circuits that are tripping


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## hogsmoss

sorry to hear it man. i was helping a guy in boulder finish a custom house that had problems with nuisance tripping on arc faults because of the transformers for the rail lighting in the house. it was a real pain in the butt to re-wire everything.


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## leland

ampman said:


> megger the circuits that are tripping



Oh,I understood that,perfect sense.
I was referring to megger at rough.
There is a variety of problems with the Arc faults.
Most common that I see are motor driven,vacuum etc. mostly,beleive it or not,Smoke detectors.
Perhaps just shoddy mass production issues (smokes).


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## subelect

480sparky said:


> When you rough the place in, you need to megger out all the circuits. That will identify the problems that may get covered up by the walls, like damaged cables, over-driven staples and the like.
> 
> Meg them out again before you start trimming out to make sure someone hasn't driven a nail or screw into the cable.
> 
> Then start trimming out.
> 
> If you have a circuit that keeps tripping an AFCI, you need to start troubleshooting it. Is it ANY load that trips it, or a specific load? Will that load trip if plugged into another circuit?


When I was in the Navy, we meggered all the motors, topside lighting...etc.
In a residence, do you megger hot to neutral, hot to ground or both? 
What voltage do you apply? 250Volt?
What values do you expect on a good install; infinite or do you have a specific minimum number?
Thanks,
Rick


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## Grimlock

We had trouble with CH arc fault breakers in the past. We found that there was a lot of heat buildup if the AFCI breakers where placed next to each other. By spacing them out the heat was able to dissipate and the majority of the problems went away. Heat could be an issue to consider in your case as well, something to check next time.


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## MF Dagger

I installed a GE 20 amp arc fault breaker today that was literally an exact match for a Siemens except it had a GE sticker on it.


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## Shado

BTW....

Welcome to the forum!!!:thumbup:


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## macmikeman

MF Dagger said:


> I installed a GE 20 amp arc fault breaker today that was literally an exact match for a Siemens except it had a GE sticker on it.


Have you got a picture of that breaker? I ask because all the GE ones I ever saw have two paddle rocker test buttons on them and Siemens has two blue push buttons for testing. 

I had problems with Cuttler "Combo" ark faults in the past. I say past cause I switched to Siemens panels and no more problems so far.


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## MF Dagger

I don't have a picture but i could probably take one at Menards. They had another one that looked the same. The 15 amp arc fault I bought looked like the normal GE one with the paddle it was just the 20 amp that was a Siemens match.


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## MF Dagger

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10051&productId=100674086&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&ci_sku=100674086&ci_src=14110944&cm_mmc=shopping-_-googlebase-_-D27X-_-100674086
Here's the one I had only it was 20 amp


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## Mr. Sparkle

Not that I am accusing the OP of this but I am baffled at the amount of "electricians", and electricians helpers that don't understand that you need to make sure you keep downstream grounded conductors separated. More often than not I bet this is what is causing many of the issues with arc-faults.....speaking of which I am in the middle of estimating my first addition that I will have to use AF breakers and TP recepts. Oh joy.....


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## snorky

*arcfault problems*

Could you elaborate on "keeping down stream grounded conductors seperated" thank's.


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## BuzzKill

snorky said:


> Could you elaborate on "keeping down stream grounded conductors seperated" thank's.


 I'd guess that means, "don't share neutrals with other circuits".


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## snorky

*arcfault*

Thank's,Buzzkill.The reason I had asked is my son told me if any of the grounding conductors made contact with grounded ones that it would trip.I/m talking bare end of conductors,like if too much of neutral was exposed from wingnut and made contact with ground.


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## 480sparky

snorky said:


> Thank's,Buzzkill.The reason I had asked is my son told me if any of the grounding conductors made contact with grounded ones that it would trip.I/m talking bare end of conductors,like if too much of neutral was exposed from wingnut and made contact with ground.


That would trip an AFCI.


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## RUSSIAN

I believe there is a recall on ge arc-fault breakers, I'm in the process of buying a house and I have to sign something about it with every offer. I can't remember the details so i could be way off. I'll try to find it and post back


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## Mike Brown

OP here, We are at about 50 warranty calls, at about 30 differant address's. When this all began, yes we checked for N to gnd faults, N to N faults, found none. which is farther supported by the fact that some things will work on the circuits, (lamps, alarm clocks, cans, etc..) I'm not an electrical engineer but I assume those would be enough of a load to trip the circuit if there where improper wiring. I may be wrong?? So the typical scenario goes like this. We wire new home, hot check, city inspectors hot check, everything's fine. Home owner moves in, uses lights, cans, misc. small appliances, no problems. Lives in home a week or so, has time to hook up computers, big screen TVs, and has to run the vacuum for the first time. Now we have Problems!
Vacuums work on some arch circuits not on others, Circuits trip when you first turn on the appliance sometimes it will stay on for half hour or so. 
There seems to be little consistency. However every thing works fine until electronic devices are put to use. And I'm not talking old stuff. a lot of these home owners have just purchased brand new stuff for there brand new home.

We have been in touch with GE and they are aware and have admitted that these types of problems exist, however on a "small scale" nothing to the extent that we are having. They are coming out next week to investigate the problem first hand, Check the power from utility Co in the area. etc.. 

So I'll let you all know how that goes next week.


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## kbsparky

how many surge-protected power strips are plugged into those circuits?

Shunting surges to ground will trip out those pesky AFCI's ...


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## BWA

MF Dagger said:


> http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs..._mmc=shopping-_-googlebase-_-D27X-_-100674086
> Here's the one I had only it was 20 amp


That's a THQL1115AF_ "MOD 2", a black one with a single push button tester (note that I think the suffix to "AF" differs in ways I don't understand -- I think the Home Depot ones have a "2" following AF). You can see the "MOD 2" in the picture from the link you provided.

Home Depots in my area *just* began stocking "THQL1120AF2 MOD 3 SWD", which is the grey one with the rocker switch that tests both Parallel Arc and Series Arc separately. The UPC for Home Depot is the same for MOD 2 and MOD 3, and the shelf hangar where they're stocked has old and new ones both on the same stick for the same UPC. They stock the low-end 15A and 20A (that is, 10KAIC plug-in types).

I happened to notice that there's another difference between the GE MOD 2 and GE MOD 3 plug-in 10KAIC CAFCIs (for both 15A & 20A models): the bottom hook of the breaker where it holds onto the non-contact part of the panel doesn't have a notch gap in the MOD 2 (so is similar to Murray breakers), but the MOD 3 has a notch gap, of an identical size to old Bryant breakers. (In other words, MOD 2 doesn't "fit" in an old Bryant panel backing, but MOD 3 does "fit" in an old Bryant panel backing. Neither one allows the Bryant panel cover to fit over the breaker since the Bryant panel cover hole size is smaller than the GE breaker sizes (similar to Murray), but the GE grey CAFCIs are tapered slightly inward, so it's less of a non-fit for MOD 3 than MOD 2.) However, on both, the packaging says simply that it is for "GE load centers", and doesn't mention any other type of load center. Since Cutler-Hammer makes CAFCIs that are listed on the breaker package as being for panel types that include Bryant (although I doubt the Bryant panels say "CAFCIs can be Cutler-Hammer BR CAFCIs"), I'm guessing there's no reason in hell to use a GE CAFCI (even MOD 3) in a Bryant panel, except for one thing: The Cutler-Hammers are oversized breakers, similar in size to Homeline CAFCIs, whereas the GE ones are old breaker-sized profiles (normal small size). Too bad Eaton/Cutler-Hammer CAFCIs are so bulky, because Bryant loadcenters barely have enough room to fit them. If GE's breakers were made and listed for Bryant loadcenters too, that'd be one reason to try them instead.

My background: just a maintenance person.

P.S., one of those GE THQL1120AF2 MOD 3 SWD circuit breakers with an aging refrigerator on the circuit (Whirlpool ET14JKY0W00 mfg date 05-00) is difficult to close without tripping. It's easier to unplug the refrigerator, reset & close the breaker, and then plug in the refrigerator. Sometimes that trips it anyway. I think it's the arcing of the various parts as the compressor initial draw demands a lot of energy, so the CAFCI says "ARC!" and trips. The refrigerator is plugged into a GFCI. It's sometimes even easier to unplug the ref, turn on the CAFCI circuit, trip the GFCI, plug in the ref, reset the GFCI. No guarantees. When left alone, the refrigerator by itself when cycling on will trip the CAFCI (nothing else on circuit but unused stove.)

I envision snowballing effect: CAFCIs cost more. CAFCIs require dedicated neutrals, more wires. CAFCIs nuisance trip a lot, suggesting more dedicated circuits would help alleviate downed computers and TVs. More circuits, more wires, more CAFCIs. More heat from CAFCIs too close to each other in panels. Much, much, much larger panels. Yuck. Some electricians will be happy.

---

UPDATE: New Information January 22, 2010

I was reading the product literature for the GE THQL1120AF2 MOD 3, and I have the paper instructions that came in the Home Depot package, instructions version "DEH-41131 R1 0109 (c) 2009 GEC". On the second page, it has a typo in the "Troubleshooting Guidelines: Condition: Circuit breaker trips (handle in center position and trip flag appears)" section: #2 and #3 are backwards (swapped). Well, in R2 (revision 2) of the same document which is on GE's web site as a PDF, they fixed that, but they also added another Potential Cause and Solution/Action:

"Potential Cause: 4. A load or combination of loads on the branch circuit emits a current signature that looks like a valid arc-fault."
"Solution/Action: 4. Contact GE (see contact information below) for troubleshooting information."

So, the official word is that if this happens, "contact GE". The # they give for troubleshooting or service related questions is 1-800-782-8061.


Update: GE called me from a report I filed on the AFCI web site, and they said that basically you aren't supposed to ever put CAFCIs on the circuits they aren't required for. He said there's a reason AFCIs aren't required on the refrigerator, kitchen, and bathroom circuits: the places the NEC doesn't require AFCIs are the places most likely to require the types of loads such as compressors and motors that would cause signatures (arcing?) that would trip the AFCI.

So, in essense, trying to retrofit an old breaker box with AFCIs isn't going to work for the circuits that cross into both AFCI-not-required zones and other zones that you'd like to have AFCIs on without changing the circuits. Holding to the code on what you aren't required to do with AFCIs is almost as important as doing what is required by the code. E.g., when replacing a breaker panel but keeping old circuits, I've seen people post that the AHJs have been interpreting NEC as not requiring AFCIs where they haven't been before. Another example is for new construction (or new circuits in old construction), making sure you are not putting AFCIs in zones where they aren't required, such as the kitchen and garage. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.


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## RIVETER

*arc fault breakers*



Dennis Alwon said:


> I have used GE for many years and have been installing the combo arc faults for some time and never had a problem.
> 
> I seem to recall that sq.D had a big problem in the Denver area and they discovered that the problem was related to the power company signature voltage. Apparently the sine wave was flattened at the top which caused havoc on the arc faults.


How did the utility explain that could happen? I would have liked to have seen a waveform capture on that one.


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## B4T

What is a "combo arc fault" :blink:


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## captkirk

Nice thread.....Every once in a while we get one right...very helpfull. :thumbsup:


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## BWA

Black4Truck said:


> What is a "combo arc fault" :blink:


Both a series and parallel arc at the same time? Or are you abbreviating for Combination Arc Fault Circuit Interruptor?


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## codeone

Black4Truck said:


> What is a "combo arc fault" :blink:


Check this link
http://www.cpsc.gov/CPSCPUB/PUBS/afcifac8.PDF

The National Electrical Code requires GFCI protection for receptacles located outdoors;
in bathrooms, garages, kitchens, crawl spaces and unfinished basements; and at certain
locations such as near swimming pools. A combination AFCI and GFCI can be used to
satisfy the NEC requirement for GFCI protection only if specifically marked as a​combination device.:thumbup:


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## macmikeman

codeone said:


> Check this link
> http://www.cpsc.gov/CPSCPUB/PUBS/afcifac8.PDF
> 
> The National Electrical Code requires GFCI protection for receptacles located outdoors;
> in bathrooms, garages, kitchens, crawl spaces and unfinished basements; and at certain
> locations such as near swimming pools. A combination AFCI and GFCI can be used to
> satisfy the NEC requirement for GFCI protection only if specifically marked as a​combination device.:thumbup:


In my opinion, the writer of that article is quite mistaken about the sentence you highlighted in red. Combination ark-fault circuit breakers do have ground fault protection, but it is set a much higher level than a gfci is set to. A gfci will trip out (if it is working correctly) between 4-6 mil amps.
A combination ark fault breaker has its ground fault device set point around 30 milliamps. At 30 mil you could be talking about a fatality. Now if it is marked as a combination ark-fault and gfci then yes the author is correct, just not how he describes the device. Combination ark fault=one animal, combination ark fault /gfci= another animal.


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## Mike Guile

*Afci/gfci*

Hey. We were looking for an Arc Fault/GFCI 2pole Breaker that would satisfy both requirements the other day. Does anyone know where to find one??? We can't seem to locate?


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## Dennis Alwon

Mike Guile said:


> Hey. We were looking for an Arc Fault/GFCI 2pole Breaker that would satisfy both requirements the other day. Does anyone know where to find one??? We can't seem to locate?


If you need a combo AFCI and a GFCI built into one as a DP breaker I doubt you will find it. Can you not add a GFCI in the line? That would be your best bet.

I also don't think they are making a combo DP AFCI.

Don't get confused with the terms a combo AFCI is not a GFCI/AFCI breaker- although I believe they do make them.


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## Tapeman

I have had to replace 3 Square D arc fault breakers that were tripping about every third day. (practically drove me crazy)

I was told by Square D that a batch of them were being recalled and they gave me the numbers and the ones I had installed were included.
They also told me that it was Colorado problem that they were trying to compensate for that made this batch of breakers litterally "time out". 

One of my suppliers has told me that Cutler Hammer arc fault breakers have had some tripping issues apparantly related to RF.
I didn't go into it with them as I have only 1 of them installed on a job.


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## waco

Siemans has two-pole AFCI breakers in both 15 and 20 amp and ground faults ARE a source of AFCI nuisance tripping although AFCIs do not meet GFCI technical requirements. Siemans also has an arc fault tester, but I've never used one.

They can be odd. I had a situation where three new branch circuit home-run conductors had been hit by a screw and under some conditions, the breakers held, but tripped when the HO turned on the DRYER!

The wires were damaged EGCs to neutrals.

http://www.sea.siemens.com/us/Produ...rmCombinationmeanthatGFCIprotectionisincluded


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## william1978

Is the OP the same Mike Brown that has been in the news so much lately?:jester::laughing:


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## RIVETER

*arc faULT*



william1978 said:


> Is the OP the same Mike Brown that has been in the news so much lately?:jester::laughing:


nO, THAT'S SCOTT, HIS COUSIN.


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## CTshockhazard

If memory serves, when the combo AFCI requirement went into effect, GE still hadn't gotten their technology to a point where their own units were viable. So they bought the Siemens and stuck their logo on them.


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## william1978

RIVETER said:


> nO, THAT'S SCOTT, HIS COUSIN.


 Damn that's right. I knew it was something Brown.:laughing:


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## expmaster

*2008 NEC Arc Faults*

Can some one tell me what rooms are required to have arc fault breakers
In the past its been arc faults in bedrooms, ground faults in kitch, bath garage, exterior. Is there a change for 2008 NEC?


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## waco

family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms, parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sunrooms, recreation rooms, closets, hallways, similar areas(???)


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## 480sparky

expmaster said:


> Can some one tell me what rooms are required to have arc fault breakers
> In the past its been arc faults in bedrooms, ground faults in kitch, bath garage, exterior. Is there a change for 2008 NEC?


........



> *210.12(B) Dwelling Units.* All 120-volt, single phase, 15- and 20-ampere branch circuits supplying outlets installed in dwelling unit family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms, parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sunrooms, recreation rooms, closets, hallways, or similar rooms or areas shall be protected by a listed arc-fault circuit interrupter, combination-type, installed to provide protection of the branch circuit.


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## waco

what is a "similar area" as defined by the NEC? An area surrounded by walls? An area with a roof overhead?

Not the kitchen even if it has outlets which aren't small appliance outlets? How about a dedicated refrigerator circuit? What about a gas stove's convenience outlet? Attics? Basements?

Gotta love it.


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## 480sparky

"Similar areas" appears 6 times in the NEC, but has no definition. I guess we're supposed to use our brains.


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## waco

480sparky said:


> "Similar areas" appears 6 times in the NEC, but has no definition. I guess we're supposed to use our brains.


Well, what does "similar areas" mean to you and is it the same as it means to me? For example, I consider a finished basement to be a "similar area" but not an unfinished one. I guess the finished parts of residences are used for some specific purpose otherwise identified.

I have one AHJ which disallows any receptacle outlets in the kitchen that aren't part of the small appliance circuits -- including the refrigerator and stove. Is this common elsewhere?


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## codeone

(B) Small Appliances.
(].) Receptacle Outlets Served.​​​​In the kitchen, pantry,​
breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling
unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch
circuits required by 210.1l(C)(1) shall serve all wall and
floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A), all countertop
outlets covered by 210.52(C), and receptacle outlets for​refrigeration equipment._
Exception No.1: In addition to the required receptacles
specified by 210.52, switched receptacles supplied from a
general-purpose branch circuit as defined in 210.70(A)(1),
Exception No.1, shall be permitted.
Exception No.2: The receptacle outlet for refrigeration
equipment shall be permitted to be supplied from an individual​branch circuit rated _15 _amperes or greater.
_


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## waco

Interesting. Dining room is GFCI protected as a small appliance branch circuit which also requires an AFCI, but the kitchen doesn't?

Gotta love it....


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## codeone

codeone said:


> Check this link
> http://www.cpsc.gov/CPSCPUB/PUBS/afcifac8.PDF
> 
> The National Electrical Code requires GFCI protection for receptacles located outdoors;
> in bathrooms, garages, kitchens, crawl spaces and unfinished basements; and at certain
> locations such as near swimming pools. A combination AFCI and GFCI can be used to
> satisfy the NEC requirement for GFCI protection only if specifically marked as a​combination device.:thumbup:


 With further investigation THIS IS A FALSE STATEMENT, checked several today. My appologies for referencing the article. Please Ignore!:whistling2:


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## codeone

RE: Similar Area = AHJ driving you CRAZZZZZZY!:laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## ElectricBill

waco said:


> Interesting. Dining room is GFCI protected as a small appliance branch circuit which also requires an AFCI, but the kitchen doesn't?
> 
> Gotta love it....



The GFCI protection of dining room would not be required. Only the portion of the SABC supplying Countertop requires GFCI. It might be easier to GFCI protect the whole circuit, but not required.


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## waco

ElectricBill said:


> The GFCI protection of dining room would not be required. Only the portion of the SABC supplying Countertop requires GFCI. It might be easier to GFCI protect the whole circuit, but not required.


Good point.


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## BWA

waco said:


> what is a "similar area" as defined by the NEC? An area surrounded by walls? An area with a roof overhead?
> 
> Not the kitchen even if it has outlets which aren't small appliance outlets? How about a dedicated refrigerator circuit? What about a gas stove's convenience outlet? Attics? Basements?
> 
> Gotta love it.


See my edit to my long post on page 2 about GE calling me. My interpretation of "similar area" is to not put AFCIs where there are most likely going to be a lot of normally stationed nuisance-tripping loads like motors and compressors. Unfortunately, my interpretation is not of much use, since it doesn't mean squat. I can also poke lots of holes in it: window air conditioners, vacuum cleaners, etc.. The question for me becomes what do we do with homeowners who have AFCIs and vacuum cleaners that trip the circuits? Do we ask them to always plug in their long-corded electronic equipment which gets moved around a *lot* during use (vacuum) in rooms that have running water, because lo and behold, those rooms also don't require AFCIs? I can see a lot of injuries from people going into their garage in slippery footwear to plug in their vacuum cleaner.

Perhaps the vacuum cleaner and window air conditioner need an internal power signature recorder, which sends the signature via ethernet-over-powerline to the AFCI, and the AFCI can then recognize that signature and remove it from consideration. The window air conditioner and vacuum cleaners would get IP addresses via DHCP from the CAFCIs, and log in automatically. (I'm being sarcastic; that would be an absolute nightmare.)


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## Mike Brown

*Original Poster*

O.P. here with an up-date. Since my post, GE engineers have flown out to Denver to meet with us and a few other electrical contractors, to see first hand the problems we were having. I personaly took them to home owner houses and brand new spec homes.
I'll spare all the details, ( except this one,) we went into a new spec home so they could run some tests, They go to plug their high tec computer that will read all the sign waves and what not (again I'm not an electrical engineer) any way, their test equipment trips the breaker! They can't use it. We have to take the circuit off arc-fault so they can get a reading.

Basically their side of the story is they have to make a product that meets UL requirments. They have done so. And so has Square D and all the others. Problem is, those requirments are not nessecarily compatible with all the hundreds if not thousands of appliance products out on the market!

As far as new flat screen TVs, computers, phone chargers, humidifiers, etc. etc. GE suggests the use of noise reducing fillters that fillter EMI and RFI signals. FYI since I have been telling this to about 10 or more home owners I have not heard back from any of them so I'm assumeing this works.
However other appliances, vacuums, various motors can/will trip arc faults even with the RFI/EMI fillters.

My boss is on the phone every day with Square D and GE about this, We spend hours dealing with warranty calls. Both manufacturers tell us they have "new and improved " breakers in production and should be on the shelves soon. We mainly deal with these two manufacturers but I know the others are having problems as well.

Until then I guess we keep dealing with pissed-off home owners, and try to explian the problem by pointing our fingers to their brand-new TV and the breakers in their brand-new house. Yeah that will put them at ease>

However like I said in alot of these cases the RFI/EMI fillters seem to be working. I have yet to see it in person, but I haven't heard back from any of the people I've told this to... FYI they range in price $7 to $75 they come in power strips or plug blocks at any hardware store. But people have to read the specs. Just buying any power strip/surge protecter doesn't automaticaly mean it has RFI/EMI filter capability.

Well I'm off to do a service call,
Later.


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## RIVETER

*arc fault*

If you were there when they tested what did the waveform look like? Was it spikes? Was it erratic waveforms as in harmonics? Did they describe it to you. To say that their product is made UL approved did they explain why it did not function correctly? Were the guys they sent engineers or salesmen?


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## JohnSham

*Waivers*

Haven't you guys received the new Arc-Fault Homeowners Excemption Waivers yet?? They just came out here in Montana.


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## Shado

I think it is funny that their test equipment trips their own product!!!:laughing:


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## waco

Just removed two of them and replaced them with regular Square D breakers. I'm not keen for anything required by the code to not work right and the manufacturer just says, "Get over it."


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## RIVETER

*arc fault*



Mr. Sparkle said:


> Not that I am accusing the OP of this but I am baffled at the amount of "electricians", and electricians helpers that don't understand that you need to make sure you keep downstream grounded conductors separated. More often than not I bet this is what is causing many of the issues with arc-faults.....speaking of which I am in the middle of estimating my first addition that I will have to use AF breakers and TP recepts. Oh joy.....


 Got a question for you. If you have a receptacle that is three feet horizontal from the panel and then 3 feet vertical from the panel, does it have to be AFCI protected?


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## waco

RIVETER said:


> Got a question for you. If you have a receptacle that is three feet horizontal from the panel and then 3 feet vertical from the panel, does it have to be AFCI protected?


Is it similar to other receptacles? (That's a joke.)


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## waco

I do think the issues we are seeing with AFCIs should be better addressed (which I didn't do) especially the EGC contacting the "grounded conductor" aka "neutral" in outlets. As I wrote elsewhere, we did find damaged conductors on three AFCI protected circuits to a new addition.

I guess we don't deal well with variations when sometimes there really is a problem and sometimes not.


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## partimer31

Waco

So you had a real life problem with your AFCI breaker. If this correct?

If there any test equipment on the market other than a simple meter,
that can test out electrical circuts, and tell us the different between,
a nail driven into a cable that makes contact with both hot and ground
conductors, and poorly made up electrical boxes.

And if I might ask, what became of the AFCI outlet??.

Does anyone out there know.

Thanks to all who answer.


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## 480sparky

partimer31 said:


> ..............And if I might ask, what became of the AFCI outlet??.............


AFCI receptacles were in the R&D stage when AFCI protection was first required....... the Code that just receps be protected was introduced in the 1999, but the 2002 required all outlets to be AFCI'd, so development was halted.

I've heard anecdotal stories that P&S has some AFCI receps from those days sitting around. They were made for listing purposes, but never submitted. Of course, they would not be the combination type required today.


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## partimer31

Thanks for your reply, 480sparky.


----------



## waco

Partimer31. Yes, we did have a problem which turned out to be two out of three new branch circuits damaged by the person who installed some closet shelves. In this case, both wires (NM) were damaged neutral to EGC, but not the hots. I measured continuity at the panel with the EGCs and neutrals disconnected and found neutral to EGC "shorts." I had also installed GFCI breakers as part of the troubleshooting and they too wouldn't hold.

The continuity test with the neutrals and EGC disconnected at the panel will uncover EGC to neutral shorts on the branch circuits. Not as unusual as we might think! I have been told it is the GFCI aspect of the AFCIs that is sensitive to EGC-neutral shorts.

Hope that helps.


----------



## partimer31

*AFCI breakers*

WACO

I just want to thank you for your informative reply.


----------



## texas electrician

Mike Brown said:


> Sorry if this has come up (I'm sure it has) I'm an FNG this is my first post found this site 10 minutes ago.
> We are having A LOT of warranty calls about GE combo arc-faults tripping. The circuit is fine until Home owners try and use- new TVs, computers, phone chargers, vacuums, humidifiers, fluorescent lights etc...
> We also use square D and have had similar problems but nothing like the GAs. I've called the GE arc-fault hot line and they admit there's potential to trip with these appliances however they are very unhelpful with any suggestions about how to solve the problem.
> 
> Anyone else starting to have these problems? We are one of the first in this area (Denver) to go with the 08 code and all the extra ach-faults. That along with working for Richmond homes, who are turning houses out VERY quickly. I'm thinking we are at the tip of the spearhead of a very big problem here.
> 
> Any news from anyone about this ...?


Mike, hello I am in Texas and we are using siemens switch gear and I have been having the same problem as you, and I am trying to find some answers myself. I have checked out the entire circuits and I have found nothing wrong, but the people living in these places just keep complaining. If you find the answer before me would you please let me know, and I will do the same. thanks Tommy


----------



## Bestar

Hi,
I'm fairly new on this forum. Having read this thread (and found it interesting) I felt an urge to post a comment. I've had problems with AFCIs myself. I have tried Siemens, GE, Square D and Eaton - none of which are perfect. 

Mike Brown (the original poster) suggested using a surge protector - this sounded like a good ‘makeshift’ solution, but I since discovered that most GFCI/AFCI products on the market are already fitted with surge protectors. 

Does anyone have any thoughts on which brand of AFCIs are the best and, I suppose, the worst for nuisance tripping? Are some AFCIs better suited for some loads and others for other loads??


----------



## Tom Neighbarger

Tapeman said:


> I have had to replace 3 Square D arc fault breakers that were tripping about every third day. (practically drove me crazy)
> 
> I was told by Square D that a batch of them were being recalled and they gave me the numbers and the ones I had installed were included.
> They also told me that it was Colorado problem that they were trying to compensate for that made this batch of breakers litterally "time out".
> 
> One of my suppliers has told me that Cutler Hammer arc fault breakers have had some tripping issues apparantly related to RF.
> I didn't go into it with them as I have only 1 of them installed on a job.


 A couple years back we had a huge problem with the square d arcfaults. I live in so cal. i worked for a company building track homes, about a year after we finished the homes square d had a recall on the arcfaults. so we had to go back and change every breaker we installed. we replaced thousands of those s.o.b.'s. i've found that even a romex staple to tight can cause the breaker to trip.


----------



## RIVETER

Tom Neighbarger said:


> A couple years back we had a huge problem with the square d arcfaults. I live in so cal. i worked for a company building track homes, about a year after we finished the homes square d had a recall on the arcfaults. so we had to go back and change every breaker we installed. we replaced thousands of those s.o.b.'s. i've found that even a romex staple to tight can cause the breaker to trip.


How much did they re-imburse for your labor per outlet?


----------



## Mike Brown

Original Poster here, It's been months since my post, wish I could say the "nuisance tripping" as the manufacturers so lightly put it. Has gone away. But NO it's still here. 
Home owners get a year end warranty notice and suddenly remember that now and then their afci breaker trips, and they want it replaced, Oh but wait, the neighbor said he has heard about all the problems of AFCI's and Home owners want them all replaced with NON AFCI. I tell them by code I can't do that, all I can say is the "newer breakers are less sensitve".
Replace them, and start charging the supply houses for new breakers and service calls. 
It's all crap. We waste time, money and gas on these service calls only to find we have done nothing wrong. 
Someone's getting rich off AFCI brakers, while the electrical contractor is going broke.!!!!
I'm about fed up with this whole industry (the residential part anyway) I'm thinking of becoming a doughnut delivery guy. Everyone's happy to see them, and is there such a thing as a doughnut going bad?:001_huh:


----------



## Shockdoc

Yes they are junk and their purpose is to fatten up the manufactures pockets. A child died in a fire out here yesterday, a lamp fell over on a couch. AFI or not, It would have burned. Too much Stupid and Ignorance in high places these days.


----------



## guest

I personally say screw the AFCI requirement, it is an unreliable, unproven technology and I have yet to see any reputable agency PROVE the statistics showing the need for those pieces of junk. 

There have already been (on other forums) reports of excessive temperature rise in panels that were loaded up with AFCIs on all the required circuits. 

I know of several recent installs/upgrades where the AFCIs were replaced with standard breakers after final inspection. :thumbsup:


----------



## leland

480sparky said:


> When you rough the place in, you need to megger out all the circuits. That will identify the problems that may get covered up by the walls, like damaged cables, over-driven staples and the like.
> 
> Meg them out again before you start trimming out to make sure someone hasn't driven a nail or screw into the cable.
> 
> Then start trimming out.
> 
> If you have a circuit that keeps tripping an AFCI, you need to start troubleshooting it. Is it ANY load that trips it, or a specific load? Will that load trip if plugged into another circuit?



This will only add a little time to the job,as opposed to later.
So price it in.

We have been on the 08' since it's inception 1/1/08

Ya get used to it.:whistling2:

Keep smilin' :thumbsup:


----------



## itsunclebill

So................

Was at the GE distributer today and it seems there are no 15 AMP AFCIs to be had.. Problem of some kind.

Anybody else seeing/hearing about this?


----------



## Murphy

could it be that its tripping by the initial plugging in? I always see a small arc on things that are on while plugging in. If its always happening after the plug is connected then I would say there is a problem


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## Mike Brown

That's the joy of AFCI problems, the inconstancy! They work when we and the inspectors put plug testers on them, they work weeks, months after people move in, then.... I've had home owners say they where just sitting around at night watching tv for about 1/2 an hour then it just trips. Or they go into their master baths turn on the lights and it shuts off. They wander around in the dark to reset the thing and it works for a few days then it returns. 
Some common things I have found to be pluged in to these circuits are-- like I've said before, New flat screen TVs, computers, lap top chargers, phone chargers, remote control ceiling fans. These are things that will be on for awhile then just shut off. Vacuums will trip moments after turning on. 
We have found a few instances where, as some have mentioned on this board, ground to neutral contact. In these cases the circuit trips all the time with a substantial load (more then a plug tester) not just now and then.

Another common thing is evenings, humid, or cold conditions seem to increase tripping. 

These things are for safty, until they prefect them I don't see how safe it is for new home owners to be stumbling around on a dark wet night, trying to navigate through their unfinished yards to mess with their electrical panels!


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## nitro71

Solution: Quit using GE. I think GE is cheap crap.


----------



## elecpatsfan

I'm glad to see that some other people hate these stupid breakers as much I do. They've been making my life sucky since 2008 when they were required basically everywhere throughout the house. The other day I had to replace one that tripped when you flicked a switch on and off too fast! 
Here in Massachusetts, if you so much as add one plug or light to an existing non-arcfault circuit, it is has to have arc-fault protection. This is usually acheived by a.f.-ing the entire existing circuit. Unfortunately, as I've discovered, this can open a can of worms considering 14/3 home runs and shared neutrals in many houses. I've complained about this to my inspectors, know what one of them told me: "Just don't pull permit for those types of jobs".


----------



## elecpatsfan

JohnSham said:


> Haven't you guys received the new Arc-Fault Homeowners Excemption Waivers yet?? They just came out here in Montana.


 
I haven't heard about them yet. Are you making some kind of joke, or is that for real? Please tell me more about it if it's for real. thx


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## sbrn33

To the OP, you should get one of the Seimens Arc-fault tester?trouble shooting devices. They work slicker than snot and WILL find your problems. Seems that the more a circuit get loaded the quiker an Arc-fault will trip. We have found that sometimes its a cheap switch that arcs when turning the load OFF. Talk about hard to find.
Once again go get your self one of those testers.


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## Mike Brown

Thanks for the heads up on the Siemens tester.
http://www.sea.siemens.com/us/Products/Residential-Electrical/AFCI/Pages/Intelli_Arc_Diagnostic_Tool.aspx

I watched the video, and I suppose my company will buy one. If nothing else to prove that it is not our house wiring. However we are still the ones driving across town spending all this time and gas to test crap to prove we have done our job correctly. And then the fun task of trying to explain it all to the home owners. "yes I'm sorry sir but the tripping is due to your new vacuum, new flat screen, etc.... Not the breaker we installed." "You'll have to return all that stuff, because you see this little black box I have in my hand with all the lights? It says we didn't f**k up, have a nice day! 
So now the electrician gets to pay 20-30 bucks per breaker,(average 7 per house) $300.00 for a new tester, all for the joy of a butt load of FREE service calls that just leave home owners pissed!! Yea!


----------



## Mike Brown

OH and one more thing I wanted to mention, to those of you that may have watched the Siemens arc fault tester video, 
It's one thing to tell a home owner the problem is with her old ugly ass lamp. quite another to "dis" her vacuum or new flat screen!


----------



## Shockdoc

Selling an imperfect device as mandated per code, selling an infertile tool to test imperfect device. Gotta luv the American way when it comes to big business.


----------



## Al13Cu29

Mike Brown said:


> OH and one more thing I wanted to mention, to those of you that may have watched the Siemens arc fault tester video,
> It's one thing to tell a home owner the problem is with her old ugly ass lamp. quite another to "dis" her vacuum or new flat screen!


:laughing:

Yep, welcome to the club.

Have you had a H/O that demand you change the breaker to non-AFCI anyway? How did you handle that?


----------



## Mike Brown

To: Al13Cu29, Yes I've had a few home owners ask us to take out afci breakers and replace them with standard ones.

I tell them sorry, it's a national code and I would be liable if I were to put anything other then a code approved breaker in.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

:whistling2:


----------



## Al13Cu29

Mike Brown said:


> To: Al13Cu29, Yes I've had a few home owners ask us to take out afci breakers and replace them with standard ones.
> 
> I tell them sorry, it's a national code and I would be liable if I were to put anything other then a code approved breaker in.
> 
> That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
> 
> :whistling2:


I tell them that, too, and I don't change it. :no:

What I say is; 'I' can not change it, 'I' will not change it, and that 'I' will not put my licence on the line to do that change. Funny how later, if I were to go back to the house for something else, the AFCI is gone. 

I did not asked what happened to it. :no:


----------



## Mike Brown

I started a AFCI discussion on here awhile back - It was called "WTF these AFCI breakers" I'm sorry to say the problems I brought up there have not really gone away.

We switched from GE to square D it seemed to get a little better. But there is still a lot of nuisance tripping service calls.

I talked to a square D rep the other day. he addmitted they know that there are new flat screen TVs out that, when showing a dark scene in a movie and the scene changes quickly to a lighter scene the fluctuation in current WILL cause a AFCI Breaker to trip. This would explain about half the scervice calls I get!!!!! When I asked him what an electrical contractor is suppose to do to solve the problem...... he had no idea.

Great.

I'm currently looking for a new career


----------



## Mike Brown

After complaining to square D reps about ongoing service calls with random AFCI tripping. I finally have something I can give the home owners!
Naturaly we check to make sure we have not wired something wrong or that there may be a faulty appliance or cord. But after that has been ruled out all we can do is blame their appliances or power companys.

It's time the manufacters start dealing with these problems not the contracters that are struggling to keep the doors open.

Have home owners go to www.afcisafety.org this is very pro afci breaker site however down the left hand margine see - AFCI Unwanted tripping form. Home owners fill out the info and submit. 

Maybe after a few 1000 replies they will see there is a problem with these things. At least in the Denver area there is. Doesn't seem to be as big an issue in other parts of the country.


----------



## Shockdoc

Mike Brown said:


> After complaining to square D reps about ongoing service calls with random AFCI tripping. I finally have something I can give the home owners!
> Naturaly we check to make sure we have not wired something wrong or that there may be a faulty appliance or cord. But after that has been ruled out all we can do is blame their appliances or power companys.
> 
> It's time the manufacters start dealing with these problems not the contracters that are struggling to keep the doors open.
> 
> Have home owners go to www.afcisafety.org this is very pro afci breaker site however down the left hand margine see - AFCI Unwanted tripping form. Home owners fill out the info and submit.
> 
> Maybe after a few 1000 replies they will see there is a problem with these things. At least in the Denver area there is. Doesn't seem to be as big an issue in other parts of the country.


Maybe it's time to lobby and petition to rescind this AFCI code since they are unproven and unperfected and primarily a revenue generator for big business.


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## CFL

Shockdoc said:


> Maybe it's time to lobby and petition to rescind this AFCI code since they are unproven and unperfected and primarily a revenue generator for big business.


How do you know they're unproven? Everything is a revenue generator.


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## SaimHaim

If you've passed final. Replace the nuisance afci's with normal old breakers.


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## Magnettica

Never had to install an AFCI circuit breaker until about 6 months ago on a new house I wired. We used all Cutler Hammer BR AFCI's and haven't had any issues whatsoever. Take it easy on the staples and use good equipment next time.


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## Chris1971

Shockdoc said:


> Selling an imperfect device as mandated per code, selling an infertile tool to test imperfect device. Gotta luv the American way when it comes to big business.



Makes sense. They were smart to mandate them. $4.00 for a regular breaker versus $35.00 for an arc fault. Wish I would have thought of it first.


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## Magnettica

Shockdoc said:


> Maybe it's time to lobby and petition to rescind this AFCI code since they are unproven and unperfected and primarily a revenue generator for big business.


Not only are big businesses profiting from selling their valued customers AFCI circuit breakers, small businesses are too. I'd rather sell and install circuit breakers all day.


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## Gamit

Solution is to replace AFC fault with regular breaker when nuisance tripping and re-use it on next job 

Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


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## Magnettica

Gamit said:


> Solution is to replace AFC fault with regular breaker when nuisance tripping and re-use it on next job
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


Think it's worth losing your license? :no:


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## ce2two

WIRED A 2000 SQ.FT HOUSE 2 YEARS AGO, USED HOME- LINE SQ.D ARC FAULT BREAKERS, NEVER HAD ONE TRIP...:thumbsup: HAPPY TIMES?:laughing: LUCK OF THE DRAW OR WHAT?


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## rnr electric

We have had to use afci since 08, so i can list a lot of issues with them from experience.here are the 4 most common reasons,(paraphrased)
1)neutral and grounds must not touch anywhere within ckt,often when you roll a receptacle back to install the ground wants to loop and contact with neutral
2)if you share a neutral.. say, neutrals not isolated in box (seperate ckts)
3) motor load will also trip them, chopsaws,drills,grinders tile saws etc.
4)junk breakers.. They are mass produced. back in the early 1990's motorolla mass produced the high frequency ballasts for flourescent lights. We would buy thousands a month (poco/business owner lighting deal) and about 20% were bad from factory. im sure these are probably going to have same issues for a while


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## sbrn33

Magnettica said:


> Never had to install an AFCI circuit breaker until about 6 months ago on a new house I wired. We used all Cutler Hammer BR AFCI's and haven't had any issues whatsoever. Take it easy on the staples and use good equipment next time.


Did you just say that Cutler BR breakers are quality equipment?:laughing::laughing::laughing:.
I just puked a little in my mouth


----------



## HARRY304E

Mike Brown said:


> After complaining to square D reps about ongoing service calls with random AFCI tripping. I finally have something I can give the home owners!
> Naturaly we check to make sure we have not wired something wrong or that there may be a faulty appliance or cord. But after that has been ruled out all we can do is blame their appliances or power companys.
> 
> It's time the manufacters start dealing with these problems not the contracters that are struggling to keep the doors open.
> 
> Have home owners go to www.afcisafety.org this is very pro afci breaker site however down the left hand margine see - AFCI Unwanted tripping form. Home owners fill out the info and submit.
> 
> Maybe after a few 1000 replies they will see there is a problem with these things. At least in the Denver area there is. Doesn't seem to be as big an issue in other parts of the country.


Mike that problem can go away fast increase your service call charge till they stop calling you...

When they here that it will be $160.. 

They will learn to reset them fast..:laughing:

You are not responsible for AFCI breakers tripping unless you have lose splices screws or damaged cable because of your install..Otherwise charge them for a regular service call even if your there for 10 minutes..:thumbsup:


----------



## daveco

Breaker companies are blaming faulty appliances and equipment. Not that the equipment is causing an "arc" but some manufactures don't meet USA specs that the breaker company match their breakers up to. I say, that it's still on the breaker manufacture because they are tripping on things 'other than' an arc. That's a poor design. They should require a recall and removal of the requirement to install them until the make one that 'only' trips on arc faults.

Another issue I have with one of the reasons for demanding arc fault breakers is because of staple damage to a wire.... so they make us install $40.00 breakers.... instead of requiring electricians to use a "Plastic" staple instead of those damn metal staples! HELLO!! drive a metal staple into thin plastic sheath and what do you ask for?? I haven't used metal staples for over 10 years. I only had to find one incident where some idiot drove a staple in too hard and caused a circuit to "Short out" NOT "an Arc" and I was smart enough to say,"Hey... that's not a good idea... why do they make metal staples for soft NM Cable anyway??"

Some will say metal staples are much cheaper... are they really?... look how much money we're spending on breakers because of them?

I say ban metal staples for use with NM cable, and make the manufactures go back to the drawing board and come up with a better design before demanding AFIC breakers.

Here's another pet peeve of mine. Stab in the back receptacles. They don't work. Never have. Yet another reason for requiring AFCI is because of what a 1500w space heater will do to one of them with loose connection. Why are they still acceptable? Because of speed? sure... because you people who install them, move onto the next job (or town) and don't have to trouble shoot them years down the road. I guess I make a living fixing your time saving practices, so I shouldn't complain ;-)

Daveco


----------



## Magnettica

sbrn33 said:


> Did you just say that Cutler BR breaker are quality equipment?:laughing::laughing::laughing:.
> I just puked a little in my mouth


Yes, I did. 

You must not know a lot about good equipment.


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## sbrn33

I'll give you the Cutler Hammer CH, but that BR is crap and deep down you know it.


----------



## Mike Brown

Thanks to a few of you for the advice, I have a question however, on the metal staple driven too hard, wouldn't that trip the breaker All the time ? not just once a week or so. Same with the neutral to ground issue. I go out to these service calls and 95% of the time I can NOT get them to trip!! We use to take every plug and switch out of the wall to inspect things, after spending hours a house doing that and finding nothing wrong we have stopped wasting our time.
And if there is a smashed wire or N to G problem why would Home Owners be just sitting on their computers or watching TV and then with nothing changing in the circuit it suddenly trips!!! ??? 
They go out reset the breaker, having changed nothing and everything works fine for a few days or weeks. ??

Charge the Home Owner for service call!? Why? they have done nothing wrong, their house is under warranty, the builder takes their complaints and pass them right to us, and we had better respond (for free!) or the builder will simply send another contractor out to try and find a problem and BACK CHARGE US. Even if they find nothing wrong.

It's getting very frustrating explaining all this to home owners every week as they look at you like you're full off Sh^t.
"Sorry Ma"ma you'll just have to keep running outside in your PJs during the middle of your movie to reset the breaker" " I know there's snow and mud in your new unfinished yard, but think of all the free exercise!"

Meanwhile GE and the likes make how many billion in un taxed profit!!?


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## Shockdoc

Another two homeruns added today proudly without AFCI breakers, the customer wanted it that way, i was happy to oblige.


----------



## Magnettica

... just sent out a proposal with 4 new AFCI circuit breaker installation for "the old bx lines" for a service upgrade coming up. I can tell you that I sold them for twice as much as I paid for them at the SH and I'll make this home safer by way of AFCI breakers.


----------



## wlittle

*Arc Fault Neutral question*

Do arc fault breakers disconnect the neutral conductor from the circuit, or is it just terminated on the breaker for sensing faults?

I know the theory behind the operation, but not the internal wiring of the device, and have googled a ton to find an internal wiring schematic to no avail.

thanks for your reply!


----------



## McClary’s Electrical

wlittle said:


> Do arc fault breakers disconnect the neutral conductor from the circuit, or is it just terminated on the breaker for sensing faults?
> 
> I know the theory behind the operation, but not the internal wiring of the device, and have googled a ton to find an internal wiring schematic to no avail.
> 
> thanks for your reply!


 

I was trying to find HR's one time by reading between the grounded conductor and the grounding conductor from the NM. Got fooled by one on an arcfault. So the answer to your question is yes.


----------



## BobFeeJr

*Arc Fault*

Hi guys, I am new to the forum but I have to tell you, I have never had a problem with arc faults. Just isolate the neutrals and grounds for each circuit and as long as there are no nicks in any wires you'll be fine. In old work situations it can be tedious to do this and costly to the customer. "Whose idea was it to ask us to pull a permit in a 70 year old Victorian adding one receptacle in a bedroom and make it arc fault anyway?"


----------



## DCAC

Arc Fault breakers detect arching. How does a CFL light? An internal arc is produced to ignite the internal gasses. Things like these do not work with arc fault breakes. And for the other devices, if the lap top is already on when it is pluged in, it will cause an arc at the recepticle, as soon as it is pluged in.
Its up to use to educate people on how to use things properly.


----------



## sandman76

I've got a pair of Siemens AFCI breakers installed about a year ago. The HO says that they will trip unexpectedly at random times. Replaced them once or twice with new breakers.

I've spent hours there waiting for them to do so. There is no overload on the circuits and does not seem to be an arc fault. I've checked for anything obvious that would or could cause the tripping. Flicked all the switches like crazy. Turned on everything and gone around plugging in a load to the circuit. No trip for me.

I could not do anything to create or re-create this problem. The owner says that they will just trip at odd times. Sometimes two or three times and then not do it for a while.

I just am at a loss to explain this to the owner and the GC.

This is part bitching and part asking if anyone has advice.


----------



## macmikeman

BobFeeJr said:


> Hi guys, I am new to the forum but I have to tell you, I have never had a problem with arc faults. Just isolate the neutrals and grounds for each circuit and as long as there are no nicks in any wires you'll be fine. In old work situations it can be tedious to do this and costly to the customer. "Whose idea was it to ask us to pull a permit in a 70 year old Victorian adding one receptacle in a bedroom and make it arc fault anyway?"



Yea, OK..... Where are you posting from? Is it from the offices of CH BR division sales by any chance?


----------



## macmikeman

sandman76 said:


> I've got a pair of Siemens AFCI breakers installed about a year ago. The HO says that they will trip unexpectedly at random times. Replaced them once or twice with new breakers.
> 
> I've spent hours there waiting for them to do so. There is no overload on the circuits and does not seem to be an arc fault. I've checked for anything obvious that would or could cause the tripping. Flicked all the switches like crazy. Turned on everything and gone around plugging in a load to the circuit. No trip for me.
> 
> I could not do anything to create or re-create this problem. The owner says that they will just trip at odd times. Sometimes two or three times and then not do it for a while.
> 
> I just am at a loss to explain this to the owner and the GC.
> 
> This is part bitching and part asking if anyone has advice.



Did you know it is really easy to add a script to a computer chip's programming that creates a random trip based on the random of the number of times a light switch is turned on or off? Guess how you detect for a faulty connection that could lead to an arc......


----------



## sandman76

macmikeman said:


> Did you know it is really easy to add a script to a computer chip's programming that creates a random trip based on the random of the number of times a light switch is turned on or off? Guess how you detect for a faulty connection that could lead to an arc......


 
I do appreciate the reply. I'm just not too sure what this means. Are you saying that the breakers are programmed to trip randomly when the light switch is operated?


----------



## Meadow

I will say this: AFCIs are *GARBAGE*. Sometimes they will trip for no reason at all on a customers new TV, ect. Put a GFCI on the circuit and see if it trips. If it doesnt at least you dont have a continious ground fault. Megger the circuits if you have one. If all is ok try a different brand, but be prepared to run in circles. Keep this in the back of your head, your installing/troubleshooting a technology that is totally half-baked.


----------



## B4T

meadow said:


> I will say this: AFCIs are *GARBAGE*. Sometimes they will trip for no reason at all on a customers new TV, ect. Put a GFCI on the circuit and see if it trips. If it doesnt at least you dont have a continious ground fault. Megger the circuits if you have one. If all is ok try a different brand, but be prepared to run in circles. Keep this in the back of your head, your installing/troubleshooting a technology that is totally half-baked.


But it does what it was designed to do.. make moiney for the manufacture..


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## RIVETER

B4T said:


> But it does what it was designed to do.. make moiney for the manufacture..


We need to have a spelling bee on this site,;however, arc fault circuits generally do their job.


----------



## JohnR

While I realize that this is an old thread, this guy has put together a very good chart for troubleshooting random tripping of a arc fault breaker. The Circuit Detective


----------



## black51

*Latest Gen Cutler-Hammer AFCI*

I understand this thread is old, but posting anyway.

Eaton/Cutler-Hammer has their latest generation combination breakers on the market. The combination, as others have wondered previously, are not combination in the sense that they are AFCI and GFCI. The combination in this case is based on the ability to detect different arc faults (parallel for example). So as not to be confused, CH does make a combination AFCI & GFCI unit.

The new generation of CH-type AFCI breakers come standard with an LED light that will provide you with a flashing error code that you can look-up. The BR-type do not come standard with this feature, but you may purchase this as an option.

So far, no problems. We're using the new 200 amps, 60 circuit CH load centers with copper bus and plug-on neutrals, thus elimination the pig tails. They are VERY slick and seem to work quite well.

Also, someone was looking for a schematic of an AFCI...you can find this online as well.


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## HARRY304E

black51 said:


> I understand this thread is old, but posting anyway.
> 
> Eaton/Cutler-Hammer has their latest generation combination breakers on the market. The combination, as others have wondered previously, are not combination in the sense that they are AFCI and GFCI. The combination in this case is based on the ability to detect different arc faults (parallel for example). So as not to be confused, CH does make a combination AFCI & GFCI unit.
> 
> The new generation of CH-type AFCI breakers come standard with an LED light that will provide you with a flashing error code that you can look-up. The BR-type do not come standard with this feature, but you may purchase this as an option.
> 
> So far, no problems. We're using the new 200 amps, 60 circuit CH load centers with copper bus and plug-on neutrals, thus elimination the pig tails. They are VERY slick and seem to work quite well.
> 
> Also, someone was looking for a schematic of an AFCI...you can find this online as well.


They make good stuff ,,,,Welcome to the forum.:thumbup:


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## daveco

Mike Brown said:


> Thanks to a few of you for the advice, I have a question however, on the metal staple driven too hard, wouldn't that trip the breaker All the time ? not just once a week or so. Same with the neutral to ground issue. I go out to these service calls and 95% of the time I can NOT get them to trip!! We use to take every plug and switch out of the wall to inspect things, after spending hours a house doing that and finding nothing wrong we have stopped wasting our time.
> And if there is a smashed wire or N to G problem why would Home Owners be just sitting on their computers or watching TV and then with nothing changing in the circuit it suddenly trips!!! ???
> They go out reset the breaker, having changed nothing and everything works fine for a few days or weeks. ??
> 
> Charge the Home Owner for service call!? Why? they have done nothing wrong, their house is under warranty, the builder takes their complaints and pass them right to us, and we had better respond (for free!) or the builder will simply send another contractor out to try and find a problem and BACK CHARGE US. Even if they find nothing wrong.
> 
> It's getting very frustrating explaining all this to home owners every week as they look at you like you're full off Sh^t.
> "Sorry Ma"ma you'll just have to keep running outside in your PJs during the middle of your movie to reset the breaker" " I know there's snow and mud in your new unfinished yard, but think of all the free exercise!"
> 
> Meanwhile GE and the likes make how many billion in un taxed profit!!?


It's time we send these comments to the product reps. I've come across several calls very similiar and it's not our 'fault'. If the breakers are 'still' not working the way they're designed, the we all should call for a RECALL and the manufactures can pay us to go replace them and the service call time we spend on 'their' problems.

My latest one is with QO style AF.


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## daveco

As for "Metal staples driven too hard"... then they sould ban metal staples! Not make us install $40.00 breakers! It's 2012 for god's sake... we don't need to use material designed in 1920 just because..."it's what we've always used!" I haven't used metal staples in years! It never made sense to me for romex. Get with the times!


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## daveco

"plug-on neutrals, thus elimination the pig tails"

Damn it!... that was my idea when Arc-faults first came out... i should have done something about it....


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## chicken steve

the europeans have

they've been well ahead of us for quite some time in fact....

~CS~


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## daveco

chicken steve said:


> the europeans have
> 
> they've been well ahead of us for quite some time in fact....
> 
> ~CS~


What? Stopped using metal staples? If so, then great!


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## macmikeman

Does anybody here know if Chicago enforces arc fault breakers for dwellings?
The make everybody run emt for houses there, so if the breakers are still doing nuisance trips all the time, we could rip apart the "staple driven to hard" malarky from the conversation with some data.


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## 37523

> _....programming that creates a random trip based on the random of the number of times a light switch is turned on or off?_

Here is an *early* patent on the AFCI. 
http://www.google.com/patents/US4949214










Part 54 is a *counter*. You are correct. 

The other diagrams show other, non-counter, ways to discount stray peaks. 

While this diagram shows an actual GFI as the switching element, the text discusses other switching types. (I wonder if the *prototype* used a stock GFI because it is easily tripped by an external signal yet fully rated.)

I do *NOT* know if any of the technology shown in this patent is actually used in the AFCIs available today. 
_______________________________________

> _If you've passed final. Replace the nuisance afci's with normal old breakers._

I have heard an opinion that the NEC is an Installation code and not a Maintenance code. 

So having Installed and been Inspected with AFCIs, future maintenance would prefer they be replaced with AFCIs, but the NEC does not enforce that. (Of course the NEC does not enforce anything.)


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## inventiveone

*Modern AFCI*

@PRR, note that a modern AFCI uses a small DSP, a microcomputer optimized for processing signals (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_signal_processing ). These are far more than a simple counter.

But that said, I don't think the world will get a handle on AFCI false tripping until AFCI breakers are eventually connected to the Internet of Things. The existing breakers are open loop: there's no record of how many false trips there are. We all have our stories: mine involve vacuum cleaners and washing machines.

I definitely don't want an AFCI on any sump pump or critical circuit. I'm moderately happy with an AFCI for a safety enhanced Knob & Tube circuit, not because of the wires themselves which are bulletproof, but because of the metal junction boxes.


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## chicken steve

One needs to visualize 30 odd little computers across phase A&B here to grasp how frail these devices really are....

~CS~


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## Meadow

That's not enough computing power.


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## Meadow

daveco said:


> What? Stopped using metal staples? If so, then great!


Im sure it will go over your head.


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