# grounding aluminum siding



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Chase13 said:


> Anyone ever heard of this? My family's selling my grandmother's house and a home inspector said it needed to be done. My boss has never heard of it and neither has our other guy


Home inspectors don't need a reason. They also don't know code.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Chase13 said:


> Anyone ever heard of this? My family's selling my grandmother's house and a home inspector said it needed to be done. My boss has never heard of it and neither has our other guy


I have worked on homes where the entire outside aluminum was energized. Grounding would not hurt.


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## Chrisibew440 (Sep 13, 2013)

Either have I but it makes sense. Look up the definition of equipotential bonding.


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## farlsincharge (Dec 31, 2010)

RIVETER said:


> I have worked on homes where the entire outside aluminum was energized. Grounding would not hurt.


I have seen it twice in my short career.


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## Chase13 (Jan 14, 2014)

Yeah we get stuff from home inspectors from time to time that is absolutely crazy. Anyone know how to?


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## Chrisibew440 (Sep 13, 2013)

Chase13 said:


> Yeah we get stuff from home inspectors from time to time that is absolutely crazy. Anyone know how to?


Why's it crazy? The siding should be riveted or fastened together somehow. Take a bonding jumper to it somewhere out of the elements and set a lug and scrape the paint off the aluminum if there is any for the lug.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Chase13 said:


> Yeah we get stuff from home inspectors from time to time that is absolutely crazy. Anyone know how to?


There is always more than one "school of thought" on the subject. One could argue that if someone working on the lawn outside and accidentally comes in contact with a worn extention cord's hot wire that if the exterior of the house were "not" grounded if he leaned against it he would get a second chance. However, I think of the child who is walking barefoot down the side walk and leans against it.


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## FrunkSlammer (Aug 31, 2013)

Pffft if aluminum siding was such a great conductor, they would make electrical wires out of it. :whistling2:


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## Chase13 (Jan 14, 2014)

Chrisibew440 said:


> Why's it crazy? The siding should be riveted or fastened together somehow. Take a bonding jumper to it somewhere out of the elements and set a lug and scrape the paint off the aluminum if there is any for the lug.


Not that grounding the siding is crazy just some things home inspectors have told people that need to be done. Grounding the siding makes perfect sense to me


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

FrunkSlammer said:


> Pffft if aluminum siding was such a great conductor, they would make electrical wires out of it. :whistling2:


It IS a great conductor...it is not as "forgiving" as copper. I understand your "jest", I just wanted to point that out.:thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## Chrisibew440 (Sep 13, 2013)

RIVETER said:


> It IS a great conductor...it is not as "forgiving" as copper. I understand your "jest", I just wanted to point that out.:thumbsup::thumbsup:


Besides it being light in weight I think it's a terrible conductor. You gotta up size everything!


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

Do you have ground rods there with a GEC going up to the meter socket? If so, slap an intersystem bonding jumper on the GEC, scrape the paint off behind the bonding jumper, and drive some screws into it. Bonded.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Chrisibew440 said:


> Besides it being light in weight I think it's a terrible conductor. You gotta up size everything!


You have a right to your opinion but aluminum is good until a professional electrician installs it improperly.


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## Chase13 (Jan 14, 2014)

Going_Commando said:


> Do you have ground rods there with a GEC going up to the meter socket? If so, slap an intersystem bonding jumper on the GEC, scrape the paint off behind the bonding jumper, and drive some screws into it. Bonded.


Could it not be grounded as a separate system? Just connect the four sides and drive a ground rod at one of the corners?


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

I tried to ground Aluminum siding once but I ran out of Nolox 1/3 of the way on just one side!


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Chase13 said:


> Could it not be grounded as a separate system? Just connect the four sides and drive a ground rod at one of the corners?


We are talking "bonding".


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## Chrisibew440 (Sep 13, 2013)

RIVETER said:


> You have a right to your opinion but aluminum is good until a professional electrician installs it improperly.


Lmao. Yeah us union guys don't know squat !!!!


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## Chase13 (Jan 14, 2014)

RIVETER said:


> We are talking "bonding".


OK gotcha now


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

Chase13 said:


> Could it not be grounded as a separate system? Just connect the four sides and drive a ground rod at one of the corners?


It should all be bonded to the same grounding electrode system to ensure everything is at the same difference in potential, so it seems to me. You could always swing AL or CU jumpers around each corner of the building or something.

Honestly, aluminum siding was never very popular up here, so I don't have experience with it, so this is all my blind guesses as to what might work. I am not sure whether the stuff clips together or what. In my area siding is predominantly wood (clapboard, shiplap or board and batten), asbestos, hardi-plank, or vinyl (it's final 'till the fade".


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

RIVETER said:


> You have a right to your opinion but aluminum is good until a professional electrician installs it improperly.


If someone can't properly install aluminum conductors, then I would hardly call them professional. I think either lazy or a common phrase dealing with boxes of rocks comes to mind.


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

Chase13 said:


> Anyone ever heard of this? My family's selling my grandmother's house and a home inspector said it needed to be done. My boss has never heard of it and neither has our other guy


All joking aside, there is NO Code requirement to ground/bond the siding on the house. :thumbsup:

The HI doesn't know what he is talking about..and if he really thinks it should be grounded/bonded, ask him for a Code reference.

You need to talk to your master electrician to get the real scoop. 

This whole thing plays out as a typical gag played on an apprentice..kinda like my stint in the Air Force where we sent the new guy out to the flightline for a bucket of jet wash. :laughing:


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## Chase13 (Jan 14, 2014)

mxslick said:


> All joking aside, there is NO Code requirement to ground/bond the siding on the house. :thumbsup:
> 
> The HI doesn't know what he is talking about..and if he really thinks it should be grounded/bonded, ask him for a Code reference.
> 
> ...


My family has another electrician going to do the job because my boss never has seen it done. If it were me selling the house I would request a code article and it's in the terms of sale already. I was just curious as to how it would be done


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

as the recipient of plenty of those shocks from al. siding, i say DO IT! and the thing is it only has to done where on the side where electrical passes through it and wasnt done right in the first place, which may mean all four, or more vsides need to be bonded. usually a sheet metal screw and wire will suffice, but for the long term, consider the connection of different metals and the environment they are in


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## FrunkSlammer (Aug 31, 2013)

mxslick said:


> This whole thing plays out as a typical gag played on an apprentice..kinda like my stint in the Air Force where we sent the new guy out to the flightline for a bucket of jet wash. :laughing:


Not funny at all.

Goose died because Maverick flew through Iceman's jet wash.

Too soon man, too soon.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

frunkslammer said:


> not funny at all.
> 
> Goose died because maverick flew through iceman's jet wash.
> 
> Too soon man, too soon.


goooooooooooooooooossseeee


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

Jokes aside, aluminum actually is a very good electrical conductor. Albeit has significant oxidation and expansion challenges.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electr...conductivity#Resistivity_of_various_materials


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## FrunkSlammer (Aug 31, 2013)

five.five-six said:


> Jokes aside, aluminum actually is a very good electrical conductor. Albeit has significant oxidation and expansion challenges.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electr...conductivity#Resistivity_of_various_materials


You have to link to wikipedia to know aluminum is a good conductor? 

I use aluminum for services, dryers, ranges and sub panels. It works perfect.


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## Chrisibew440 (Sep 13, 2013)

papaotis said:


> as the recipient of plenty of those shocks from al. siding, i say DO IT! and the thing is it only has to done where on the side where electrical passes through it and wasnt done right in the first place, which may mean all four, or more vsides need to be bonded. usually a sheet metal screw and wire will suffice, but for the long term, consider the connection of different metals and the environment they are in


Agreed. I don't get the beef with doing it. Do it and charge em. And so what if there's not a code reference, he's still an inspector. Do what he says.


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## Maximumbob (May 24, 2013)

The Tin Men was just on cable.


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

FrunkSlammer said:


> You have to link to wikipedia to know aluminum is a good conductor?
> 
> I use aluminum for services, dryers, ranges and sub panels. It works perfect.


I link wikipedia when I am being lazy.


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## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

I remember having to bond the aluminum siding where a hot tub was sitting close to the house. I do not remember how we did it however.


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## glen1971 (Oct 10, 2012)

What about eavestroughs and downspouts?? Holy cow what a new market opportunity!! Make sure everyone allows for the in their bids.. :001_huh: lol..


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Maximumbob said:


> The Tin Men was just on cable.


Home Inspectors....:laughing:


Gee, I wonder if that metal meter socket that is bolted to the metal siding and the meter socket should be grounded unless someone really f it up!:laughing:

I'll bet you could take a hot wire and touch the siding anywhere and it will trip the breaker....:whistling2:


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

RIVETER said:


> . However, I think of the child who is walking barefoot down the side walk and leans against it.


It always goes back to children. Nobody cares about us grown-ups. :laughing:


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Chrisibew440 said:


> Agreed. I don't get the beef with doing it. Do it and charge em. And so what if there's not a code reference, he's still an inspector. Do what he says.



Hahahahaha suuuuurrreeee :no:


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

HARRY304E said:


> Home Inspectors....:laughing: Gee, I wonder if that metal meter socket that is bolted to the metal siding and the meter socket should be grounded unless someone really f it up!:laughing: I'll bet you could take a hot wire and touch the siding anywhere and it will trip the breaker....:whistling2:


I thought about that, but assumed the meter can was mounted to to a wood block or something.


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## reddog552 (Oct 11, 2007)

*Bonding siding???*

IMOA This is redicious. How do U bond Corners Are self tappers allowed. Nolox on connections between peices??? WTF


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## Pharon (Jan 20, 2014)

mxslick said:


> All joking aside, there is NO Code requirement to ground/bond the siding on the house. :thumbsup:


This could be cited by an AHJ for backup:


> *250.4(B)(3) Bonding of Electrically Conductive Materials and Other Equipment.*
> Electrically conductive materials that are likely to become energized shall be connected together and to the supply system grounded equipment in a manner that creates a low-impedance path for ground-fault current that is capable of carrying the maximum fault current likely to be imposed on it.





> *250.116 Nonelectrical Equipment*
> The metal parts of the following nonelectrical equipment described in this section shall be connected to the equipment grounding conductor:
> (1) Frames and tracks of electrically operated cranes and hoists
> (2) Frames of nonelectrically driven elevator cars to which electrical conductors are attached
> ...


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

There is no solid metal to metal contact between the pieces of aluminum siding. If you really wanted to bond it, you would have to make a connection to each piece of siding. 

As far as the code sections cited in post #39. For 250.4(B)(3) the key words are "likely to become energize". While it is possible for the siding to become energized, in my opinion, it is not likely.
For section 250.116, the only part that would apply to the siding is the Informational Note, and those are not enforceable rules.


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## 8V71 (Dec 23, 2011)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> There is no solid metal to metal contact between the pieces of aluminum siding. If you really wanted to bond it, you would have to make a connection to each piece of siding.


Totally agree!


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## Pharon (Jan 20, 2014)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> As far as the code sections cited in post #39. For 250.4(B)(3) the key words are "likely to become energize". While it is possible for the siding to become energized, in my opinion, it is not likely.


I don't think it's "likely" either, but it's not our opinions that matter, it's the AHJ's.

All I was trying to do was point out that there is, actually, a section of the NEC that could be used to justify such a request.


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## bml215 (Jul 2, 2012)

mxslick said:


> Kinda like my stint in the Air Force where we sent the new guy out to the flightline for a bucket of jet wash. :laughing:


In the marines we used to send em to base hazmat for a can of A. I. R. or to ipac for an ID 10 Tango form. Go get the humvee keys was another good one. 

Never seen siding grounded around here though. Does sound like a new cash cow, "keep your children safe, ground your AL siding!"


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## jbfan (Jan 22, 2007)

]Do not open that door!
For all the military guys sent on lost missions!


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## bml215 (Jul 2, 2012)

jbfan said:


> ]Do not open that door!
> For all the military guys sent on lost missions!


Lol I forgot about the metric crescent.


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## pete87 (Oct 22, 2012)

mxslick said:


> All joking aside, there is NO Code requirement to ground/bond the siding on the house. :thumbsup:
> 
> The HI doesn't know what he is talking about..and if he really thinks it should be grounded/bonded, ask him for a Code reference.
> 
> ...





I wonder what would happen in a Lightning Storm ?




Pete


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

We mounted a meter on a metal prefab once, the whole thing became a huge noodle under a load, and everyone in it started channeling Andy Warhol and Tim Leary 

~CS~


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

usually after a shock from al siding, i would find the culprit was a ho or some hack wiring to a porch lite or outside outlet, so grounding SHOULDNT be necessary, but a safety anyway


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

pete87 said:


> I wonder what would happen in a Lightning Storm ?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You nicely grounded siding would now become a giant lightning-attracting plate. :whistling2::laughing:


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## Chrisibew440 (Sep 13, 2013)

mxslick said:


> All joking aside, there is NO Code requirement to ground/bond the siding on the house. :thumbsup:
> 
> The HI doesn't know what he is talking about..and if he really thinks it should be grounded/bonded, ask him for a Code reference.
> 
> ...


There is a section in "Mobile homes"


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## bml215 (Jul 2, 2012)

Chrisibew440 said:


> There is a section in "Mobile homes"


Would that apply to non-mobile homes though?


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## Chrisibew440 (Sep 13, 2013)

bml215 said:


> Would that apply to non-mobile homes though?


No, but I think it's a good enough reason. Why would it be different.


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## bml215 (Jul 2, 2012)

Chrisibew440 said:


> No, but I think it's a good enough reason. Why would it be different.


I would imagine there is a lot greater risk of someone getting waffled in a mobile home vs a regular home. 

I don't think grounding accessible aluminum siding is a bad idea if we can make it visual pleasing, but I don't believe it to be required.

What would energize the siding? A sh!tty install, which is supposed to be done in a safe, workman like manner, and inspected.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

bml215 said:


> What would energize the siding? A sh!tty install, which is supposed to be done in a safe, workman like manner, and inspected.


onna deez>








:no::whistling2:~CS~


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## glen1971 (Oct 10, 2012)

chicken steve said:


> onna deez>
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What type of wire is that? I haven't seen it before and was trying to figure it out for recommendations to replace..


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

chicken steve said:


> We mounted a meter on a metal prefab once, the whole thing became a huge noodle under a load, and everyone in it started channeling Andy Warhol and Tim Leary
> 
> ~CS~


Let an elect fence wire hit an ungrounded metal prefab, and open the door in wet boots. Been there, done that, no fun.


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## bml215 (Jul 2, 2012)

chicken steve said:


> onna deez>
> 
> :no::whistling2:~CS~


Why is that seu missing it's jacket Cs? It might catch a cold out there.


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

bml215 said:


> I would imagine there is a lot greater risk of someone getting waffled in a mobile home vs a regular home.
> 
> I don't think grounding accessible aluminum siding is a bad idea if we can make it visual pleasing, but I don't believe it to be required.
> 
> What would energize the siding? A sh!tty install, which is supposed to be done in a safe, workman like manner, and inspected.


I saw it happen when someone was working on the siding and put a nail thru the wire inside the house. Foil covered insulation got energized.


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## bml215 (Jul 2, 2012)

just the cowboy said:


> I saw it happen when someone was working on the siding and put a nail thru the wire inside the house. Foil covered insulation got energized.


And was said wire less then a 1 1/4" from the edge of the stud? 

Or was the carpenters using 2 1/2" long nails knowing there was electrical behind the siding.


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## Chrisibew440 (Sep 13, 2013)

bml215 said:


> I would imagine there is a lot greater risk of someone getting waffled in a mobile home vs a regular home.
> 
> I don't think grounding accessible aluminum siding is a bad idea if we can make it visual pleasing, but I don't believe it to be required.
> 
> What would energize the siding? A sh!tty install, which is supposed to be done in a safe, workman like manner, and inspected.


Easy! I love my trailer. 






J/k


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## bml215 (Jul 2, 2012)

Chrisibew440 said:


> Easy! I love my trailer.
> 
> J/k


Set it on fire for the insurance money


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## Elephante (Nov 16, 2011)

Isn't the siding bonded at the meterbase....? Well unless it recessed in it is probably not...


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## River Boy (Oct 26, 2009)

Chase13 said:


> Anyone ever heard of this? My family's selling my grandmother's house and a home inspector said it needed to be done. My boss has never heard of it and neither has our other guy


Yep, saw it on a service call years ago. The aluminum lap siding was getting hot (burn) spots where the laps came together. 
Long story short: the 100 amp service feeding the building had lost its neutral and was trying to return to ground through the aluminum siding.


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## rjuergens (Feb 12, 2011)

*Gee Wiz*

Remove the corner trim and use g-clips on each panel:jester:


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## rjuergens (Feb 12, 2011)

Please don't take me serious


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## Morrison9493 (Apr 20, 2012)

Home insp. are absolute morons with basic knowledge. Here in Washington state, they gov. finally got involved because of the pain and suffering on behalf of home owners because of what "inspector Gadget" missed. SHOW ME THE NEC CODE FOR THAT ONE!!!! My father, also an electrician, was one time made to BOND a PVC conduit IN THE GROUND no less, because of a idiot with a mail-order inspection certificate. If you missed it, I DISPISE home inspectors. They hurt people on both sides of the sale with their so-called "Knowledge".


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

It's not so much what they _call out_

It's what they  _miss_

and i, for one, have learned the hard way being last licensed guy before a RE sale can definitely come back on you

~CS~


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## Ashokan1 (Apr 11, 2013)

I'd like to see the inspector tap out the aluminum siding for a ground screw.


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## Morrison9493 (Apr 20, 2012)

Ashokan1 said:


> I'd like to see the inspector tap out the aluminum siding for a ground screw.


 


Nice one!!!!:thumbup:


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