# Fixed storefront commercial Signs



## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

Does anyone know if it is legal for electricians to install signs ? ( building , lighted, retail fixed store front signs) ?

Obviously we wire them , but do we need a builders license to install them ? 


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

WronGun said:


> Does anyone know if it is legal for electricians to install signs ? ( building , lighted, retail fixed store front signs) ?
> 
> Obviously we wire them , but do we need a builders license to install them ?
> 
> ...


Yes and No depending on which states you are located and as far I know there is seperated license to address on sign installment but not need it for repair or mantanice that what I know of .,,

If other know about they can add to my comment on this.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

When you do not honestly fill out your profile these can be very hard to answer.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

WronGun said:


> Does anyone know if it is legal for electricians to install signs ? ( building , lighted, retail fixed store front signs) ?
> 
> Obviously we wire them , but do we need a builders license to install them ?
> 
> ...


You'd have to check with the local inspection department but I'd say off hand as long as you take out a building permit you'd be good.

How hard can it be to hang one if a sign guy can do it?


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

MechanicalDVR said:


> You'd have to check with the local inspection department but I'd say off hand as long as you take out a building permit you'd be good.
> 
> 
> 
> How hard can it be to hang one if a sign guy can do it?




Not hard at all actually 


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

WronGun said:


> Not hard at all actually
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


So did you hang it in your "jurisdiction"?


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

Yes I did , needless to say I didn't pull a permit ....this was about 6 months ago now... I pull many more permits now compared to when I was starting out 


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

WronGun said:


> Yes I did , needless to say *I didn't pull a permit* ....this was about 6 months ago now... I pull many more permits now compared to when I was starting out
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


May that never come back to bite you!


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

If it is Neon, then an additional level of electrical license is required here , not just any sparky is allowed , same goes for splicing high voltage cable. 


Of course we can attach wire nuts from the branch circuit wiring to the primary leads for the fixture, but not the internal fixture wiring.


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

You need a C-45 license.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

macmikeman said:


> If it is Neon, then an additional level of electrical license is required here , not just any sparky is allowed , same goes for splicing high voltage cable.
> 
> 
> *Of course we can attach wire nuts from the branch circuit wiring to the primary leads for the fixture,* but not the internal fixture wiring.


From his question I would trust he was concerned with hanging it and not building it's internals from scratch.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

MechanicalDVR said:


> From his question I would trust he was concerned with hanging it and not building it's internals from scratch.




To be honest I had the box letters and raceway built and completed everything else myself ....driver , LED's, wiring ... it came out great and sparked interest from other businesses in the area which is why this question was posted....I work closely with a sign guy which gives me the ability to sell and have signs semi-built. Then I do all the interior wiring , build and installation.. it was actually very profitable and did most of the work during slow times in my shop. 

Now I know i probably shouldn't be doing this ! Lol or at least figure out a way To do it legally because i actually enjoyed it


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Maybe things are different elsewhere but the one permit you usually can't get away with skipping - is a sign in town. Think about it a second, it's a sign, people are going to see it


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

splatz said:


> Maybe things are different elsewhere but the one permit you usually can't get away with skipping - is a sign in town. Think about it a second, it's a sign, people are going to see it




Your absolute right ! I went last night to look at 2 sign installs with my sign guy and our first stop was to the town hall for a sign design hearing. A room with 4 town workers asking the most minute details about the sign before approving it .... that's what got me a little worried.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

I have to take out a separate sign permit but anyone can do it. I thought new signs had to be UL listed though.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

WronGun said:


> To be honest I had the box letters and raceway built and completed everything else myself ....driver , LED's, wiring ... it came out great and sparked interest from other businesses in the area which is why this question was posted....I work closely with a sign guy which gives me the ability to sell and have signs semi-built. Then I do all the interior wiring , build and installation.. it was actually very profitable and did most of the work during slow times in my shop.
> 
> Now I know i probably shouldn't be doing this ! Lol or at least figure out a way To do it legally because i actually enjoyed it
> 
> ...


Could be a nice profitable little niche for you!


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

sbrn33 said:


> I have to take out a separate sign permit but anyone can do it. I thought new signs had to be UL listed though.


I seriously doubt that. There are so many sign shops that fab things up from various parts, they aren't going to have a UL rating on the assembled internal wiring menagerie.


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## mitch65 (Mar 26, 2015)

MechanicalDVR said:


> I seriously doubt that. There are so many sign shops that fab things up from various parts, they aren't going to have a UL rating on the assembled internal wiring menagerie.


Unless there is a specific rule exempting signs, wouldn't sign shops have to have their sign assemblies approved and have a UL number for them to be legal to install? I have seen UL/CSA decals on signs that I have worked on.


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## Forge Boyz (Nov 7, 2014)

I know a guy that used to work in a sign shop and yes they do have to have their stuff UL listed. He told me they have random tests done every so often where they will test an assembly and then the rest of their stuff is covered. I think it is yearly certification. And it's not cheap!

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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

mitch65 said:


> Unless there is a specific rule exempting signs, wouldn't sign shops have to have their sign assemblies approved and have a UL number for them to be legal to install? I have seen UL/CSA decals on signs that I have worked on.


I've done service work in two very large sign shops. It's possible that many of the light sub assemblies that they stock are approved but the way they often cobble those units together inside a large sign are they still approved?

I've worked in some of the shops long enough to see a sign completed and just put on a truck to be hung the next day. Not even a boss in the shop looks at the internals of the finished product.

I've removed a few signs that looked like a kid put them together in his back yard.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Is it compliant to assemble custom signage from listed components without getting the sign itself listed?


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

splatz said:


> Is it compliant to assemble custom signage from listed components without getting the sign itself listed?


Wouldn't the entirety of the circuitry inside the sign have to be tested to be compliant?


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

http://www.metlabs.com/product-safety/electric-sign-safety-governed-by-ul-48-and-nec-article-600/


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

The key to sign liability is -- does the dang thing STAY PUT.

The elements and earthquakes make these puppies fall down.

They are normally so out of reach that the general public can't electrocute themselves...

And if they start sparking -- it does get obvious. 

Major signs have safety switches ready to hand, are treated like independent sheds.

You'd be astounded as to the price tag for having some erected.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

telsa said:


> The key to sign liability is -- does the dang thing STAY PUT.
> 
> The elements and earthquakes make these puppies fall down.
> 
> ...



Not at all, some erections are very expensive.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

IMO Keeping them in place is the easiest part .... even the biggest of building signs are extremely light... they are 90% constructed of very thin aluminum and the the letters faces are made of very thin plexiglass with a vinyl mold trim. 

The sign I installed was 19' long including the company logo , and letters were 21-23" tall...The whole sign felt not even 50lbs fully built , wired , driver and all. 

I rented a scissor lift because of the size , but the company I work with doesn't even know what a scissor lift is. They would've thrown this up on ladders.


you'd be surprised by the size of some of these things yet they are installed with 2 or 3 extension ladders , I prep every sign for line voltage wiring and an exterior lever switch while it's being built at the shop 


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## B-Nabs (Jun 4, 2014)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Not at all, some erections are very expensive.
> 
> https://youtu.be/J8vbKqEVsgY
> 
> ...


Tell us more from your vast knowledge of expensive erections Mech...

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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

B-Nabs said:


> Tell us more from your vast knowledge of expensive erections Mech...
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


LOL, does any part of those items erected in the videos look inexpensive?:jester:


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

In Florida, a sign license is a speciality license someone can get without being a full electrical contractor. 
We, as an EC, can do any kind of sign work.
Building a sign is something different. 
We can do that and the inspector comes out for a sign inspection to look inside before it gets installed.
They also look for a UL label.
If you bought it pre-made and it has a label, it's good.
If you made it in your shop, you have to have some NRTL come out and approve it and give you a label. With that inspection, They sell you a roll or sheet of labels that are only good for you to make that exact same sign in whatever quantity you like. 
They would allow us to make some size variables but it had to be the same components.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Suncoast Power said:


> In Florida, a sign license is a speciality license someone can get without being a full electrical contractor.
> We, as an EC, can do any kind of sign work.
> Building a sign is something different.
> We can do that and the inspector comes out for a sign inspection to look inside before it gets installed.
> ...


Interesting!:thumbup:


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

splatz said:


> Is it compliant to assemble custom signage from listed components without getting the sign itself listed?


No.
The assembley has to have listed components.
Once assembled, they have to be inspected and labeled as an assembley.

We installed two labeled displays back to back inside of a mall.
The inspector noted that they were now a single assembley and had to be labeled as such.
5k later, they had a label.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Suncoast Power said:


> No.
> The assembley has to have listed components.
> Once assembled, they have to be inspected and labeled as an assembley.
> 
> ...


May I inquire who had to foot that bill ?


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Interesting!:thumbup:


Each sign has to have a serial number.
You have to keep a logbook of each sign and account for each of the labels they sell you.
Some go "missing" and you just make a note of repainted or destroyed in the logbook.
Needless to say, the labels get passed around a bit.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

MechanicalDVR said:


> May I inquire who had to foot that bill ?


There is plenty of money in advertising, they couldn't write a check fast enough.
All done after hours.

We ended up having to move a power supply out of the way of a vent hole in case it caught fire and dripped on someone.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Suncoast Power said:


> Each sign has to have a serial number.
> You have to keep a logbook of each sign and account for each of the labels they sell you.
> Some go "missing" and you just make a note of repainted or destroyed in the logbook.
> *Needless to say, the labels get passed around a bit.*


What was that you posted earlier about a Jersey attitude? :jester:


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Suncoast Power said:


> There is plenty of money in advertising, they couldn't write a check fast enough.
> All done after hours.
> 
> We ended up having to move a power supply out of the way of a vent hole in case it caught fire and dripped on someone.


Have to love correcting a design error.


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