# Time and Material



## 3xdad (Jan 25, 2011)

Insulation company is blowing in fiberglass into an older ranch house attic. Customer puts them on hold because of the wind, but i think he said that they already did 250 sq. ft. or something like that.

Customer hires HVAC guy to come in at this point and install some dimmable skylights which did require some wiring that the HVAC guy did. 

HVAC guy alerts customer that there is 20 or more open air splices in the attic (romex). 

Then i get the call. "Can you come fix this before i call the insulation guys back out?"

i asked to speak to the HVAC guy. He said that it is hot as hell, and at least one of the splices looked like it involved 6 or 8 cables. He went on to say that he's sure there are more splices under the area with the new fiberglass and it's crawl around only.

Would you guys be reluctant to touch this house, and if you did, what hourly would you use. Job is 40 miles one way.

Also, which are you?

1. "i wouldn't touch that house" (for liability reasons etc.)
2. "i would quote high and if they agreed, do it"
3. "normal rate, no big deal"

thanks


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## Electrical Student (Jun 6, 2011)

im gone with option # 1. Just to big a risk. If you add in the working conditions and distance its a no brainer in my book. I know i don't like to turn jobs down either but...


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Unless you have no food on the table.. I would run like hell from this job..

There is no way of knowing if you found all the splices and if something becomes loose.. you get the headache of crawling through that junk to find the loose connection..

IMO.. there is nothing worse than working with blown in insulation.. you can't even see the ceiling beams to kneel on..

Some jobs you could not pay me enough to do.. this sounds like one of them..


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

Quote it high and if you get it, you get it. You carry insurance (hopefully) for a reason, it certainly doesn't sound like a picnic.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

I'd give him a rewiring job T & M depending how bad it is or a waiver of not responsible for any concealed or unseen problem that wasn't corrected .


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

We've done jobs like that, the T&M rate goes way, way up though.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

Jlarson said:


> We do jobs like that, the T&M rate goes way, way up though.


 
Along with the temperature. 

It's officially summertime in AZ and there is easier money to be earned.

Fiberglass+attic=fixing some handyman/homeowners mess= :hang:


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

220/221 said:


> Along with the temperature.
> 
> It's officially summertime in AZ and there is easier money to be earned.
> 
> Fiberglass+attic=fixing some handyman/homeowners mess= :hang:


Yeah but we have a bunch of confined space vent fans, put one of those up to a eve vent and you get a nice breeze in there :laughing:


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

Jlarson said:


> Yeah but we have a bunch of confined space vent fans, put one of those up to a eve vent and you get a nice breeze in there :laughing:


 
Yeah. Like the breeze you get when you open your car hood with the engine running.

Ahhhhhh....


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## JohnR (Apr 12, 2010)

First, RUN. If you end up doing it,(starving) then make sure you check the whole home. Someone who would do open air splices, will do a lot of other hack.
Part of the costs, would be to install a mandatory attic exhaust fan. This will help with the insulation and heat. Lastly install all circuits on arc faults to cover yourself at the end. 
IMO the price should be high enough that you can't believe they would accept it in any case, but if you do get it, you can feel sure that you are properly repaid for the amount of work needed, and the risk you are taking.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

220/221 said:


> Yeah. Like the breeze you get when you open your car hood with the engine running.
> 
> Ahhhhhh....


Drop cloth/towel/whatever and a garden hose, hack evap cooler.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

I got a question. Why do homeowners always start thinking about rewiring the house during the month of June, July, or August?












Is this what subliminal passive aggression is?


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

3xdad said:


> Insulation company is blowing in fiberglass into an older ranch house attic. Customer puts them on hold because of the wind, but i think he said that they already did 250 sq. ft. or something like that.
> 
> Customer hires HVAC guy to come in at this point and install some dimmable skylights which did require some wiring that the HVAC guy did.
> 
> ...


Option 2 price it high enough to hire another EC to do the job.:laughing:.:thumbsup:


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## doubleoh7 (Dec 5, 2009)

Bid it as a complete rewire that you can do in October, contingent on all the insulation being vac'd out.:thumbsup:


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

This is exactly the type of work that appeals to me. Work no one else is likely to go after. It can be profitable. Give them a guesstimate so they know what to expect, and bill T&M. Electrical work is electrical work. Who am I to judge? You can make their installation safe, and make money on the job. If this stuff was all easy, women and little kids would do it. We're professionals. We can make it right, and make money while doing so.


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## doubleoh7 (Dec 5, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> This is exactly the type of work that appeals to me. Work no one else is likely to go after. It can be profitable. Give them a guesstimate so they know what to expect, and bill T&M. Electrical work is electrical work. Who am I to judge? You can make their installation safe, and make money on the job. If this stuff was all easy, women and little kids would do it. We're professionals. We can make it right, and make money while doing so.


 

Bid it as a complete rewire that you can do in October, contingent on all the insulation being vac'd out.:thumbsup:


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

doubleoh7 said:


> Bid it as a complete rewire that you can do in October, contingent on all the insulation being vac'd out.:thumbsup:


Me, personally, I don't care what the month is or whether the insulation is in there or not. In the perfect working conditions you propose, their price would be less, but that's only one option. If they want it done tomorrow, with the insulation still in there, I'm perfectly willing to price that out. As I've said many times before, I'm selling whatever it is that you're buying.


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## doubleoh7 (Dec 5, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> Me, personally, I don't care what the month is or whether the insulation is in there or not. In the perfect working conditions you propose, their price would be less, but that's only one option. If they want it done tomorrow, with the insulation still in there, I'm perfectly willing to price that out. As I've said many times before, I'm selling whatever it is that you're buying.


 
Just how long can you work in an attic like that before passing out?


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

doubleoh7 said:


> Just how long can you work in an attic like that before passing out?


You're missing the point. If it's getting done tomorrow, it will cost more and it will take longer. That whole "take longer" part means that you'll be working less vigorously and you'll be taking more breaks. Heck, for all I know, there's A/C ductwork up there you can hack up and air condition the attic. It's not like any of us can pretend like we've never done that before.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

doubleoh7 said:


> Just how long can you work in an attic like that before passing out?


On a more serious note, I did have to call 911 on myself, from an attic in 2006. I seriously overdid it, and it was quite an affair getting me out of that attic. I had nothing left in me, so I propped myself up in a niche in the trusses while I waited for the EMT's, in case I passed out, so I wouldn't fall through the ceiling. Lucky for me, no one was home to witness the spectacle. They kept me in the hospital overnight, filling me up with bag after bag of whatever it is that they put back in you when you're dehydrated. It's good to know your limits.


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## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

It was 111.7 in the attic today right next to the scuttle hole and was still rising fairly quickly when I moved the thermometer back downstairs. I'm guessing it was around 125 by where we were working


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

MF Dagger said:


> It was 111.7 in the attic today right next to the scuttle hole and was still rising fairly quickly when I moved the thermometer back downstairs. I'm guessing it was around 125 by where we were working


Even on the hottest days, I've never not entered an attic, but you have to take frequent breaks and keep the Gatorade coming. In the summer, I try my best to put calls where attic work is likely, in the mornings.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

Forget those temps.. If it's that hot why the rush to insulate. AC doesn't cost that much to run. Tell them you'll be back in the fall and they should suck out what's been blown in so you can inspect the wiring.


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## doubleoh7 (Dec 5, 2009)

That's what I said.:



"
"Bid it as a complete rewire that you can do in October, contingent on all the insulation being vac'd out.:thumbsup: "


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

There are some times when doing attic work is simply unbearable. Last week I did some attic work and it was about 80 outside while it was well over 100 in the attic. There was no insulation so it was bearable, but I took frequent breaks because I was sweating so much it looked like I just ran through a sprinkler.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

I disconnect central AC vents while working in attics equipped with CAC. Only way to ride. Other than that , I bring the hurricane fan.


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## Jsmit319 (Sep 23, 2010)

I had the same type of scenario, only difference was that it was caused by a family of hacker squirrels chewing on all the wiring. It was a job that couldn't be put off as there were bare conductors everywhere and it was late August. I worked with the HO so that we could start our day at 5am, with knock-off no later than 1 pm. All T&M (based on 40% margin). I used a hurricane fan and two portable AC units running full bore. We had a little over two weeks worth of work for two guys to fix/replace the wiring. Keeping the temps relatively low (about 80-90 degrees F at the hottest points) breaks and lots of fluids kept the job bearable. If you send employees up in a hot attic, make sure you comply with OSHA regs for working in the heat. Made a darn good profit, and wished there were more of those.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Jsmit319 said:


> ... Made a darn good profit, and wished there were more of those.


Pretty much the point I was trying to make. Thanks.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

One side note to all those proposing putting fans as a source of cooling in an attic- If the attic has issues with rodents taking up residence (birds as well) wear a breathing protection apparatus. Bird guano and rodent scat is not something you want to be breathing... Some really bad things can be gotten from breathing rat crap dust particularly.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

macmikeman said:


> One side note to all those proposing putting fans as a source of cooling in an attic- If the attic has issues with rodents taking up residence (birds as well) wear a breathing protection apparatus. Bird guano and rodent scat is not something you want to be breathing... Some really bad things can be gotten from breathing rat crap dust particularly.


Copy that. I've had some pretty nasty sinus infections from working in dusty places, and that's only the tip of the iceburg for what rodent and bird droppings can do to you.


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## Jsmit319 (Sep 23, 2010)

Too true! Everyone should be wearing masks anyway due to the insulation dust:thumbsup:


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Jsmit319 said:


> Too true! Everyone should be wearing masks anyway due to the insulation dust:thumbsup:



Insulation? Is that the pink stuff you see in attics on the mainland? :laughing:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

The last time I did attic work with insulation I wore a respirator. Those paper dust masks just don't do the trick.


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## Jsmit319 (Sep 23, 2010)

it depends.......it could be all the HO crap stuffed in the attic, giving it an R value rating of 216, and the pink stuff is just acting as packing material.:whistling2:


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Jsmit319 said:


> it depends.......it could be all the HO crap stuffed in the attic, giving it an R value rating of 216, and the pink stuff is just acting as packing material.:whistling2:


I hear you on that one. It would be fairly normal to spend more time shuffling things around in the attic than it takes to run the circuit or whatever it is that you're doing.


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

MF Dagger said:


> It was 111.7 in the attic today right next to the scuttle hole and was still rising fairly quickly when I moved the thermometer back downstairs. I'm guessing it was around 125 by where we were working



Take the day off. You don't need a heat stroke.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> . They kept me in the hospital overnight, filling me up with bag after bag of whatever it is that they put back in you when you're dehydrated. It's good to know your limits.


 
Here, you don't have to be in an attic for that to happen.













> Last week I did some attic work and it was about 80 outside while it was well *over 100* in the attic


 
:lol:


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## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

Chris1971 said:


> Take the day off. You don't need a heat stroke.


Roughed in an attic addition today. Dripped sweat everywhere. At least today the occupant was an attractive girl with a short skirt.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> Me, personally, I don't care what the month is or whether the insulation is in there or not. In the perfect working conditions you propose, their price would be less, but that's only one option. If they want it done tomorrow, with the insulation still in there, I'm perfectly willing to price that out. As I've said many times before, I'm selling whatever it is that you're buying.


But do you personally go crawling through the attic or leave it to your employees.. ?


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Did two mouse eaten phone lines last week. I usually carry a case of Poland Spring in the van. I need to put in a couple extra pairs of clothes, I was soaked through. I have one of those inexpensive respirators from Blowes or HD with the filters for dust and insulation. It works well. I like the tapping the ductwork idea. Unfortunately most of the apartment attics I find myself in have no ac, not to say I won't try it sometime though.

Today I had a migraine and the sun did me in, I lasted half a day and fixed what was most important and went home. I don't fear the attics. The mess that it makes is the most aggravating for me. Granted I much prefer attics in January, but I take what I am given.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

nrp3 said:


> Did two mouse eaten phone lines last week. I usually carry a case of Poland Spring in the van. I need to put in a couple extra pairs of clothes, I was soaked through. I have one of those inexpensive respirators from Blowes or HD with the filters for dust and insulation. It works well. I like the tapping the ductwork idea. Unfortunately most of the apartment attics I find myself in have no ac, not to say I won't try it sometime though.
> 
> Today I had a migraine and the sun did me in, I lasted half a day and fixed what was most important and went home. I don't fear the attics. The mess that it makes is the most aggravating for me. Granted I much prefer attics in January, but I take what I am given.


Get some extra water and gateraid it will be a hot one tomorrow.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Bringing a window AC tommorow for a new build final, we will have a relief room.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Should be mostly basements for the rest of the week.


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## GDK 13 (Oct 6, 2009)

Shockdoc said:


> Bringing a window AC tommorow for a new build final, we will have a relief room.


awesome idea. Im starting an occupied 7 family tomorrow. New panels and branch circuits in each apartments. I'll be running risers all day tomorrow


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

macmikeman said:


> One side note to all those proposing putting fans as a source of cooling in an attic- If the attic has issues with rodents taking up residence (birds as well) wear a breathing protection apparatus. Bird guano and rodent scat is not something you want to be breathing... Some really bad things can be gotten from breathing rat crap dust particularly.


Half or full respirators here.


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

MF Dagger said:


> At least today the occupant was an attractive girl with a short skirt.


I would have worked all day also.:thumbsup::thumbup:


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## Tiger (Jan 3, 2008)

I'd quote high for the obvious reasons:

1. You have to take extra breaks to bring your body temperature back down and rehydrate.
2. You have to work in a tight area with respirator and kneepads.

I take breaks in the van, change my shirt, drink a lot of water and crank up the AC until I feel better. Like Shockdoc says, if it has attic AC, you've got it made. A hurricane fan at the entrance, and roof vent fans on. Tell them to crank up the air conditioning.

I'm a fan of upfront pricing, so I'd do a fee-based assessment to get a thorough count of splices and rewiring needed, then give a repair quote.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

B4T, you have any landscape lighting I can help you with? :laughing:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

220/221 said:


>



Yes, I forgot to add that over 100 with humidity is quite different than 100 with no humidity. Both are dangerous though.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> On a more serious note, I did have to call 911 on myself, from an attic in 2006. I seriously overdid it, and it was quite an affair getting me out of that attic.


What exactly were you doing? How hot was it? Was it something you absolutely needed to get done, so that's why you overdid it?


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*Heat*

I can't stand the heat. I tell all my outside jobs I have really high blood pressure and I could die working in the hot. I line up all the inside a/c jobs during heatwaves.


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## doubleoh7 (Dec 5, 2009)

Someone has to be as dumb as a handfull of Georgia clay to try to spend any signifigant time in a cramped attic here. We are over 95 in the afternoons right now.


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