# will the unions survive under the current leadership and the direction they are going



## user10002 (Dec 3, 2009)

In these unfortuniate times in our industry we are supposed to come together and rebuild our reputation as the best electricians money can buy. all while sharing the unemployment evenly throughout the membership this way some are not losing their homes and families while others stay employed clear over 100 grand and take a mere 14 weeks off. Now the powers that be (who coinsidently have not truly earned their current position but were brought through family name ) are asking true class A journeymen and women to take a lower rate of pay. well there are seperate divisions set a side to make a lower rate and they were handed A cards and stay employed cause they organized in with the company they are employed by. what chance do we have when we are unemployed for 40 weeks get back to work for less pay and it takes at least 4 weeks to get back into the swing of things. Members or ibew it is time to reunite together as a whole and on the smaller scale of our local unions. any thoughts on how unions can regain the majority of the electrical work and kep its members employed


----------



## JayH (Nov 13, 2009)

Take over the banks that took TARP money but won't lend even to small business' with impeccable credit all the while raising executive's bonus' while raking in record profits.


----------



## Sparky480 (Aug 26, 2007)

What local are you?


----------



## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

*Ha HAH Good luck!!*

Its all about the people who live in the local.

The local is held in high regard here by members and outsiders alike.

The few people that do turn red in the face and sputter sentence fragments at the mention of the "U"word around here, typically have an emotionally involved story from the past, and are drama queens to boot.

Honestly, in my opinion, which many men disagree with, it is a benefit to the local when a good union hand who is layed-off goes out into the community and works for a non-union shop. When he works hard, displays craftsmanship and reliability, it shines on the local, not just to the office of the shop in question, but other electricians at that shop. Give that man a month, and he's promoted to foreman. Then again, WTF do I know?

I never hold it against a 'brother' who does what he has to do to make ends meet. If I did chastise him, we wouldn't be brothers would we, it would be like I was his mother or some crap, I ain't no MILF material.


----------



## JayH (Nov 13, 2009)

miller_elex said:


> Its all about the people who live in the local.
> 
> The local is held in high regard here by members and outsiders alike.
> 
> ...


Man you had me till you through that MILF material in there.

Other than that, well said.


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Unions are useful idiots for the new world order. Once they are no longer useful they will be discarded.


----------



## JayH (Nov 13, 2009)

Peter D said:


> Unions are useful idiots for the new world order. Once they are no longer useful they will be discarded.


Man, did you really have to go there?

Here we go again...


----------



## RUSSIAN (Mar 4, 2008)

Peter D said:


> Unions are useful idiots for the new world order. Once they are no longer useful they will be discarded.


Do you feel the same way about your local police departments union or teachers association:whistling2:


----------



## e57 (Jun 5, 2009)

JayH said:


> Man, did you really have to go there?
> 
> Here we go again...


Did we ever leave???? :no:


----------



## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Union construction labor has been through tougher times. We all know that its a cycle and will end. There is plenty of history to study of how to get through the rough times. We share work, we share money and we help each other. We train our apprentices and we march on.
If one or more large projects suddenly come up where a thousand or more highly skilled electricians are needed, the IBEW can support them with the infrastructure it has in place.
Some organizations are not so fortunate as to have a long history and deep pockets.
Just think about how hard the IEC and the ABC are now fighting each other for market share and struggling to survive. They do not have the numbers, capital or the loyal members to sustain the training obligations made to its members. What happens when you are a couple of years into a program, you are out of work and cannot pay out of your pocket for training classes?

Why do we need several organizations to represent one trade? Does this practice help the average electrician, or does it divide us?


----------



## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

RUSSIAN said:


> Do you feel the same way about your local police departments union or teachers association:whistling2:


Actually yea.

The teachers association is the most corrupt even worse then the senate right now.

Cops for the most part are just as bad.

Problem is no one is held accountable for anything anymore.

Do you know what it takes to fire a cop or a teacher? EVEN IF THEY SUCK!!!!


----------



## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

robnj772 said:


> Actually yea.
> 
> The teachers association is the most corrupt even worse then the senate right now.
> 
> ...


So you think that if every law enforcement officer, fire fighter and teacher, had to negotiate their salary and benefits individually, the whole world would be a happy place?:laughing:


----------



## user10002 (Dec 3, 2009)

unions have been through tougher times that is correct. when they first started. since then they have seen economic troubles but have never been in danger of extinction until now. in this present day yes times are tough but thats not the problem it seems to me that it is more than a bad economy that is tearing us apart. we are letting our forefathers down in a big way.to me it is sad.


----------



## e57 (Jun 5, 2009)

jrannis said:


> Why do we need several organizations to represent one trade?


Because one of them is an exclusive club...



jrannis said:


> So you think that if every law enforcement officer, fire fighter and teacher, had to negotiate their salary and benefits individually, the whole world would be a happy place?:laughing:


Maybe not the 'whole world'... But the lack of performance, and accountability might reverse if they were not collectivley holding the public hostage. In many places you cant get rid of bad apples - teachers who fail to teach, and cops who flaunt the law are equally protected by contract agreements that force the public to eat sour with the sweet. Whats worse is that sour rot spreads like a cancer.


----------



## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

you guys act like the sky is falling in. times are tough, they will likely get tougher. it may last for several years. the unions survived the great depression, and all the recessions we've had lately ( 79-80 and early 90's were terrible for me). read up on the great depression - there were a lot of homeless, that may happen again - who knows ? You can say all the bad things you want about the union- shady leadership, shady ties to shady politicians, etc., but as long as they provide good training (and I know they still do) they will continue to provide quality tradesmen - and IMO that is the hallmark of the union, and what will continue to keep it going. (btw and FWIW - I have never been in the union, but my family had a union company from 1890 to 1975)


----------



## bward76 (Oct 7, 2009)

Can someone help me to find out how the percentages are formulated? I keep hearing that union labor only accounts for 7% of electrical work nationally. Just curious if anyone has a link showing a little more details. I think Phat elvis has touched on this before. Thanks


----------



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

bperrone said:


> any thoughts on how unions can regain the majority of the electrical work and kep its members employed


Well first off they already lost it, if you want my thoughts what it would take to get it back it is easy.

1) More production for the current rates

OR

2) Reduce the rates for the current production.

It really is that black and white.


----------



## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> Well first off they already lost it, if you want my thoughts what it would take to get it back it is easy.
> 
> 1) More production for the current rates
> 
> ...


unfortunately, this is true. the attached study from 2005 shows some examples (even though it is ABC propaganda, it is nevertheless true).

http://www.abc.org/res.ashx?p=files...AStudies/PLAStudySummariesUpdatedJune2005.pdf


----------



## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

Bob Badger said:


> Well first off they already lost it, if you want my thoughts what it would take to get it back it is easy.
> 
> 1) More production for the current rates
> 
> ...


are you trying to slay the sacred cow?


----------



## wwilson174 (Apr 25, 2008)

JayH said:


> Take over the banks that took TARP money but won't lend even to small business' with impeccable credit all the while raising executive's bonus' while raking in record profits.


 
Did you mean "executives' bonuses" ? or businesses?


----------



## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

if they are raking in record profits, then I have no problem with the executives getting more money. that is a fair, performance based pay scale. If they are not making profit, then the executives need to be fired or have their pay cut. I do not see the logic in complaining about successful companies giving bonuses to successful employees or managers - please explain further how this would be beneficial to any company.


----------



## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

bward76 said:


> Can someone help me to find out how the percentages are formulated? I keep hearing that union labor only accounts for 7% of electrical work nationally. Just curious if anyone has a link showing a little more details. I think Phat elvis has touched on this before. Thanks


It will change now that housing is dead


----------



## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

wildleg said:


> unfortunately, this is true. the attached study from 2005 shows some examples (even though it is ABC propaganda, it is nevertheless true).
> 
> http://www.abc.org/res.ashx?p=files...AStudies/PLAStudySummariesUpdatedJune2005.pdf


Interesting to see that the 14 to 17% project cost increase is supposed to be directly associated to labor and not due to red tape.

If the average of 15% is used it might be the difference between having benefits or our taking advantage of our public healthcare system.


----------



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

jrannis said:


> If the average of 15% is used it might be the difference between having benefits or our taking advantage of our public health care system.


Ahh many non-union shops (all that I have worked for) provide medical coverage, I have health, dental and eyeglasses. Along with paid holidays and vacations. 

Do all non union shops do this? No but that is where personal responsibility for ones own situation comes into play.


----------



## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

There is no honor among thieves, and no Brotherhood among Rats.

Dollars for dollar, the market share is over 80% here and rising. 

I do empathize with the non-union sparks here, they run out of rope to pull through Mcmansion walls, fell on tough times.

That housing bubble was a fluke. Never going to happen like that again for a long time. The roper ranks are oversaturated with production guys.

Can you say, 'paper or plastic?' Even better, 'want fries with that?'

I really do feel bad for them, and hope they find their way back up again to something better than a rockstar in each fist, then jamming out a 2500 sqft house a day.

Yet I won't shed a tear for the Rats, those old union foremen that said to hell with the Brotherhood and struck out on their own. You deserve what you get.


----------



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

miller_elex said:


> There is no honor among thieves, and no Brotherhood among Rats.
> 
> Dollars for dollar, the market share is over 80% here and rising.
> 
> ...


If that is your impression of all non-union members you have been seriously brain washed.

I have not wired a home in 20 years.


----------



## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

The most knowlegeable electricians I've worked with have been non-union. I'm union at the moment but I have no axe to grind either way. I'll work for whoever is paying me.

Reality is that smaller 1 and 2 man shops are going to do the lions share of the smaller jobs. If you are a medium size EC you better aim for the jobs that the shops with no overhead can't do. IE: jobs that take large bonds and resources. I think our economy is in for some rough times. I think union shops are going to be limited to doing large projects.


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

russian said:


> do you feel the same way about your local police departments union or teachers association:whistling2:


more so in the cases you mentioned.


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

jrannis said:


> So you think that if every law enforcement officer, fire fighter and teacher, had to negotiate their salary and benefits individually, the whole world would be a happy place?:laughing:


They are public employees, they need a union like I need a root canal (and my teeth are in good shape).


----------



## al13nw4r3LC76 (Apr 6, 2009)

Union market share here is about 50%. Work looks good on the horizon. I am happy.


----------



## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> Ahh many non-union shops (all that I have worked for) provide medical coverage, I have health, dental and eyeglasses. Along with paid holidays and vacations.
> 
> Do all non union shops do this? No but that is where personal responsibility for ones own situation comes into play.


Sorry Bob, I meant PPO type paid family health insurance.


----------



## user10002 (Dec 3, 2009)

al13nw4r3LC76 said:


> Union market share here is about 50%. Work looks good on the horizon. I am happy.


 What local is that i might have to travel there for work remember that once it falls below 50 50 prevailing wages will change


----------



## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

anyone ever compare NECA labor units vs. real life?


----------



## sparky105 (Sep 29, 2009)

not even close


----------



## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

miller_elex said:


> There is no honor among thieves, and no Brotherhood among Rats.
> 
> Dollars for dollar, the market share is over 80% here and rising.
> 
> ...


WTF?????

The last time I " Roped " a house was while I was in the union

deserve what we get?

What did i get?

I got to work EVERY day and have tons of work vrs my buddies who stayed in the union and haven't worked a full 6 months in the past two years

When you sober up try posting again!!! :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

BTW this was a civil discussion until you posted this BULL**** dribble 

Can any of you union slugs have a discussion without making bull****,offensive statements ?


----------



## user10002 (Dec 3, 2009)

nitro71 said:


> The most knowlegeable electricians I've worked with have been non-union. I'm union at the moment but I have no axe to grind either way. I'll work for whoever is paying me.
> 
> Reality is that smaller 1 and 2 man shops are going to do the lions share of the smaller jobs. If you are a medium size EC you better aim for the jobs that the shops with no overhead can't do. IE: jobs that take large bonds and resources. I think our economy is in for some rough times. I think union shops are going to be limited to doing large projects.


i started my career nonunion when i was 15 years old wired houses did service calls some commercial pools old work worked with guys that had 30 years nonunion experience. i then moved on as an electrician in the navy upon discharge entered a union apprenticeship. at 31 years old 16 years in the trade those 30 year veterans of nonunion electrical are not even fit to shine my wifes shoes. the fact is they arent even electricians even if they hold a liscense which we all know is just a matter of taking the right course to teach you have to take the test. union electricians of course not all but the majority that came up the ranks the real way touch into so many aspects of the business where as a nonunion electrician may touch into maybe 3 aspects at the most. I not knocking anyone for making a living but the reality is nonunion guys are excepting less because that is what you are worth. I have run jobs and worked along side guys that were organized in and never went to school. they used tactics that lowered the standards of the work and rushed to get done without planning ahead a sure sign of being unprofessional. I not saying all union guys are great and all nonunion suck just that a true blue professional union electrician is the best you ever gonna find as far as work craftmanship skill and knownledge of the trade. we dont settle for less because we know what we are worth. United we stand divided we fall


----------



## user10002 (Dec 3, 2009)

fyi i am laid off and have even tried to get nonunion jobs just because i have a family to feed and electricity is my trade however i have been unsuccessful do to the contractors being intimidated by my knownledge of many aspects of the trade and their unwillingness to give me a fair wage for my experience. Bad business on their part.


----------



## paul d. (Jul 13, 2008)

bperrone said:


> fyi i am laid off and have even tried to get nonunion jobs just because i have a family to feed and electricity is my trade however i have been unsuccessful do to the contractors being intimidated by my knownledge of many aspects of the trade and their unwillingness to give me a fair wage for my experience. Bad business on their part.


 just curious; how much is a " fair " wage in n.j. ?:blink:


----------



## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

there is a reason that local 102 has an 18-24 month wait...there is a reason that a non-union shop will not pay an out of work 102 guy $35+ an hour to be on a project that the calculated labor rate is probably around $45-$50/hr...

please, do not hurt yourself patting yourself on the back...

ironically, some of the best electricians I know are union...but so are some of the worst...and the union wants me to pay them the same wage...


----------



## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

bperrone said:


> fyi i am laid off and have even tried to get nonunion jobs just because i have a family to feed and electricity is my trade however i have been unsuccessful do to the contractors being intimidated by my knownledge of many aspects of the trade and their unwillingness to give me a fair wage for my experience. Bad business on their part.


 
:laughing:

I highly doubt you are as knowledgeable as your over inflated ego is makes you think that you are.

I know 30 year union guys that can't wire a 3 way switch or read blueprints

Hell you can't even spell the word knowledge !!!!!! :laughing:

I am sure the fact that union slugs try to SALT has nothing to do with the fact that you can't get a job with a non union guy! :laughing:

You blame a non union contractor for not being able to pay you a " Fair " wage on bad business BUT I got a news flash for you there Mr slug.......WE ARE IN A BAD ECONOMY.


----------



## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

robnj772 said:


> :laughing:
> 
> I highly doubt you are as knowledgeable as your over inflated ego is makes you think that you are.
> 
> ...


it is definitely partly 'guilt by association'...why would a guy hire an out of work union man, who will leave as soon as the call comes? especially when there are a plethora of qualified non-union guys looking for work...guys who won't leave in the middle of a project because of the 'call'....

additionally, production is a key factor...sometimes, especially in bad times, the budget doesn't allow for 4 hrs/day productivity...

add to that the fear of having some union guy file labor charges (warranted or not) and having to spend the time, effort and money to defend them...

there are a lot of reasons...usually 'intimidated' is not among them....


----------



## user10002 (Dec 3, 2009)

robnj772 said:


> :laughing:
> 
> I highly doubt you are as knowledgeable as your over inflated ego is makes you think that you are.
> 
> ...



i never said i am a good typer sir and by the way you talk online i can tell you are an internet tough guy and as far as my ego goes damn right i got an ego i can garantee you dont know what i know nor could keep up with my pace and quality installations sorry for the man who cant **** young man if you feel like your the greatest and union guys are slugs well fine thats your opinion however i know my skills and my abilities and no one gonna tell me different and remember this you get what you pay for so those guys working for you my man probably suck but it is a bad economy so guess that the type of workers you can afford. i never personally attacked anyone on this just stated my opinions if you wanna personal attack me and my character via online well shows what type of woman you are i expect an imature responce from you every time mam so bring it on i can go all day. btw the "salting" days have long since past


----------



## katoomrp (Dec 5, 2009)

Unions will no doubt survive, ive been on both sides of the fence and can tell you that it is much harder for the open shops to find good guys that truly are well rounded and knowledgable. This is not a problem at all with ibew. With the restructuring of the small works agreement the open shops will see a new force in the light commercial market. We are here to stay.


----------



## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

katoomrp said:


> Unions will no doubt survive, ive been on both sides of the fence and can tell you that it is much harder for the open shops to find good guys that truly are well rounded and knowledgable. This is not a problem at all with ibew. With the restructuring of the small works agreement the open shops will see a new force in the light commercial market. We are here to stay.


the unions will survive...there will be lots of collateral damage to the men and the contractors though...not everyone will make it through


----------



## user10002 (Dec 3, 2009)

oldman said:


> it is definitely partly 'guilt by association'...why would a guy hire an out of work union man, who will leave as soon as the call comes? especially when there are a plethora of qualified non-union guys looking for work...guys who won't leave in the middle of a project because of the 'call'....
> 
> additionally, production is a key factor...sometimes, especially in bad times, the budget doesn't allow for 4 hrs/day productivity...
> 
> ...



if the pay is right and i wouldnt get laid off cause work is steady hey i might stay but i assure intimidation is a factor i was told by contractors out of their mouth that they never touched the aspects of the trade that i have and that it intimidated them.


----------



## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

bperrone said:


> if the pay is right and i wouldnt get laid off cause work is steady hey i might stay but i assure intimidation is a factor i was told by contractors out of their mouth that they never touched the aspects of the trade that i have and that it intimidated them.


then you need to look at different contractors...look for guys with license #'s lower that 13 or 14,000....

i have a lot of friends in 102, and i would hire 1/2 of them for $25/hr, let alone $80/hr...but some, I would hire at $100+ an hour if I could find the work to pay it...


----------



## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

bperrone said:


> i never said i am a good typer sir and by the way you talk online i can tell you are an internet tough guy and as far as my ego goes damn right i got an ego i can garantee you dont know what i know nor could keep up with my pace and quality installations sorry for the man who cant **** young man if you feel like your the greatest and union guys are slugs well fine thats your opinion however i know my skills and my abilities and no one gonna tell me different and remember this you get what you pay for so those guys working for you my man probably suck but it is a bad economy so guess that the type of workers you can afford. i never personally attacked anyone on this just stated my opinions if you wanna personal attack me and my character via online well shows what type of woman you are i expect an imature responce from you every time mam so bring it on i can go all day. btw the "salting" days have long since past


SOOOOOOO

I am an INTERNET tough guy and your the one making all these statements 

Like you don't know what I know BLAH BLAH BLAH !!!!! 

I would LOVE to see you tell my guys they suck to their faces.You would be trying to run away with a 2 inch piece of EMT up your ass sideways :laughing:

What I do know is that I have a lic,a profitable business with money coming in,well trained and VERY happy employees with full benefits and a 401 k and you have no job

And if you think salting is a thing of the past take a look at some of the other threads in this section. Do a search for the word salt.

I have witnessed first hand Local 102 salting,while I was in 102 and after I left. They were trying unsuccessfully to salt a chop in Morris county very recently so don't give me that crap

You slugs do this all the time. You get laid off,can't find a job so you get pissy and come on this forum and start crap with the guys that are working. Starting the never ending fight of union vrs non union.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

robnj772 said:


> Actually yea.
> 
> The teachers association is the most corrupt even worse then the senate right now.
> 
> ...


 
It takes nothing more than the will and determination of those doing the firing. Cops here have a base salary of $109,000.00 a year and about 5 are fired every year from 20 year veterans to probies. Teachers are generally vetted before they're tenured, but even after tenure it's not unheard of.

The fact is it takes CAUSE that can be PROVED. Nothing wrong with that, unless you think the only way to run something right is to have supreme power over everyone and everything - which I think is the mark of a very poor and pathetic person who has no business running a business.


----------



## user10002 (Dec 3, 2009)

ronbnj i am happy for your success and i apologize if i rubbed u the wrong way but hey i am just responding to you you started the pesonal attack on me. as far as saying anything to your mens face yes i would say it to their face i have no problem with that i am not afraid of them putting a two inch emt up my butt cause they dont know how to handle that size emt lol the point of my topic was not to end up in an arguement with you in any way i wish you much success in exploiting your workers for minimal pay while you reap all the rewards. hiding behind a screen name explains a lot as well so good luck and if you think you hard and your boys are hard i am always available for a sparring session at my mixed martial arts academy


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Bob Badger said:


> Well first off they already lost it, if you want my thoughts what it would take to get it back it is easy.
> 
> 1) More production for the current rates
> 
> ...


Could you tell me, since contractors have never stopped screaming for it, at what point is production and pay perfectly balanced? The truth is, it will never be because no matter how productive a worker is, the contractors know that more production for less money means higher profits.

No matter where the bar is set - contractors will always want to adjust it more toward their favor. Until we're back to slavery.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

wildleg said:


> unfortunately, this is true. the attached study from 2005 shows some examples (even though it is ABC propaganda, it is nevertheless true).
> 
> http://www.abc.org/res.ashx?p=files...AStudies/PLAStudySummariesUpdatedJune2005.pdf


7% increase in the cost of a project. Now.. what are the costs to society in 30 years when all those ABC employees don't have pensions (100% of IBEW retirees get a pension, only 18% of employees of ABC affiliated employers EVER collect a pension.) 

IBEW workers have family medical coverage. What does it cost taxpayers when the child of an ABC employed electrician who didn't choose to have further wage deductions from his megar salary gets cancer and the public has to foot the medical bills after the electrician declares bankruptcy?

What was most revealing about this ABC-commissioned study was how short-sighted it is - which let's face it - is what ALL ABC contractors are.


----------



## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

bperrone said:


> ronbnj i am happy for your success and i apologize if i rubbed u the wrong way but hey i am just responding to you you started the pesonal attack on me. as far as saying anything to your mens face yes i would say it to their face i have no problem with that i am not afraid of them putting a two inch emt up my butt cause they dont know how to handle that size emt lol the point of my topic was not to end up in an arguement with you in any way i wish you much success in exploiting your workers for minimal pay while you reap all the rewards. hiding behind a screen name explains a lot as well so good luck and if you think you hard and your boys are hard i am always available for a sparring session at my mixed martial arts academy


SOOOOOOOOO

Now I am hiding behind a screen name exploiting my workers for minimal pay???

Have some more kool aid down at 50 Parsippany RD ,tell Pat DelleCave I said hi.

You are nothing more then a Brainwashed idiot here this is for you


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Bob Badger said:


> Ahh many non-union shops (all that I have worked for) provide medical coverage, I have health, dental and eyeglasses. Along with paid holidays and vacations.
> 
> Do all non union shops do this? *No* but that is where personal responsibility for ones own situation comes into play.


What % of nonunion shops provide what you have? What % of nonunion employment do they represent? 

Further... I have eyeglass, (100% family) dental (100% family) And ER/ hospitalization with a 40.00 co-pay Prescription drug (10.00 copay) and max total family co-pay of 400.00 annually and I'm pretty sure your coverage is nowhere near that good, nor is it totally free to enroll and maintain.

It's EASY for employers to provide so-called "benefits" but when it comes time to use them, I bet if you became sick with a long-term illness or something very serious or expensive the "plan" you're in has a maximum payout set ridiculiously low, or incredibly high co-pays or will simply drop you and your family like a hot potato.

Simply stating "They have benefits but so do I" doesn't cut it when one compares the plans.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

(quote=robnj7720):laughing:

I highly doubt you are as knowledgeable as your over inflated ego is makes you think that you are.

I know 30 year union guys that can't wire a 3 way switch or read blueprints

*Reading prints is foremans work. The reason many union guys can't is because they won't because they shouldn't have to. You want someone to read a print and follow it you'd better be paying him as a working foreman. The reason why nonunion guys can and do read prints is because they've been doing it since they were making helpers pay but being worked as journeymen while earning 1/4 what they should.*

*Now, who are the idiots?*

Hell you can't even spell the word knowledge !!!!!! :laughing:

I am sure the fact that union slugs try to SALT has nothing to do with the fact that you can't get a job with a non union guy! :laughing:

You blame a non union contractor for not being able to pay you a " Fair " wage on bad business BUT I got a news flash for you there Mr slug.......WE ARE IN A BAD ECONOMY.[/quote]

*...and the cost of construction work and the sell prices have plunged along with the wages, right? Oh wait... you're mistaken. *

*Settling for less will not create a job. Lowering wages will not cause more people to be hired. You're just too blind to see that. You don't lower your standards to meet the market conditions, people who lower their standards do so because they don't want to be the one unemployed in the face of a 50% reduction in workers needed. *

*IE: rats fighting for crumbs.*


----------



## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

robnj772 said:


> You are nothing more then a Brainwashed idiot here this is for you


Rob, you are a true Rat, with a capital 'R.' An inflatible doll does you no justice.

That aside, will you please stop posting pictures of your son?!? We all understand you opened your non-union shop to spite the hall, because they wouldn't let your son into the apprenticeship.

Talk to Oldman about opening a Mr. Electric franchise. Those old wimmin would put your son to good use heatin up the G.Disposal hint hint.


----------



## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

This thread reminds me of the movie Groundhog day It's just the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again

Union guy gets laid off,can't find work, joins electrician talk .com, puts down non union guys,non union guys stick up for themselves,unon guy makes up stories and bull****,non union guy questions his statements,union guy gets pissed and starts personal attacks......Next Day repeat

Doesn't it ever get old?

BTW the union should give out spelling lessons you slugs can't spell worth a rat's ass


----------



## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

Miller, I would go with Mr Sparky is I was gonna do resi service. We gave it up several years ago. Too many out of work union guys doing ceiling fan installs for $75.


----------



## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> (quote=robnj7720):laughing:
> 
> 
> *Reading prints is foremans work. The reason many union guys can't is because they won't because they shouldn't have to. You want someone to read a print and follow it you'd better be paying him as a working foreman. The reason why nonunion guys can and do read prints is because they've been doing it since they were making helpers pay but being worked as journeymen while earning 1/4 what they should.*
> ...


Did I call anyone an idiot ??? NO

Someone learns how to read blueprints because they want to learn and advance. ANY electrician union or not that can't read blueprints with 30 years on the job should be fired. 

Your above statements are the reason of the downfall of the union.It is not the rats fault it is your own.


----------



## user10002 (Dec 3, 2009)

robnj772 said:


> :laughing:
> 
> I highly doubt you are as knowledgeable as your over inflated ego is makes you think that you are.
> 
> ...


here is the first personal attack you made all directed at me the history doesnt lie so if you think for one second that you can come on this site and personally attack anyone you dfeel like then run your mouth when they defend themselves you are greatly mistaken miss. i know it must be hard for you being your wife or boy lover runs the show at home so you have to come on here like your life has meaning. take a second to look at the original topic and ask yourself why did you even comment in the first place. i dont know what you are referencing when you say to have more kool aid at 50 parsippany rd or whatever that is but i dont drink kool aid or alcohol and live in south jersey so you got the wrong guy the picture was funny though lol i like stuff like that. you have managed to disrupt my topic of discussion which was probably you plan but it is entertaining non the less and probably will go on and on. so looking forward to your next response


----------



## user10002 (Dec 3, 2009)

robnj772 said:


> SOOOOOOOOO
> 
> Now I am hiding behind a screen name exploiting my workers for minimal pay???
> 
> ...


yes you called me a brainwashed idiot you are a fool you write things and dont even remember what you wrote


----------



## user10002 (Dec 3, 2009)

fyi i read blueprints and know how to draft them myself as well as estimate all types of work from fiber optic jobs to switchgear jobs and everywhere in between and beyond. all of which i learned through my local. and my wife went to college for free through my local have you put any of you employees wives through college. yeah didnt think so.


----------



## smitty1358 (Dec 5, 2009)

you said brainwashed idiot. I bet 102s glad your not a member any more. I think I here your son cryin better go clean his cage.


----------



## user10002 (Dec 3, 2009)

lawnguylandsparky we both local 3 are you working at the moment


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

bperrone said:


> fyi i am laid off and have even tried to get nonunion jobs just because i have a family to feed and electricity is my trade however i have been unsuccessful do to the contractors being intimidated by my knownledge of many aspects of the trade and their unwillingness to give me a fair wage for my experience. Bad business on their part.


Man you have an inflated ego. I have NEVER KNOW of a shop that will not hire an intelligent employee. NOW if they think you are a salt or appear to be a slug, you butt will stay on the bench.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

robnj772 said:


> Did I call anyone an idiot ??? NO
> 
> Someone learns how to read blueprints because they want to learn and advance. ANY electrician union or not that can't read blueprints with 30 years on the job should be fired.


Someone learns how to read blueprints because they want to learn and advance? They ALL learn how to read blueprints, whether they'll play foreman, layout man and installer for one low low price is an entirely different thing. Tell you what - 50 guys on a nonunion job, 2 foremen, 10 journeymen, 30 various positions from "JUNIOR mechanic" to laborer all learn read and work off of blueprints and guess what? 

10 year later there's still only 1 foreman...

Dopes. I swear some of you will never learn...



> Your above statements are the reason of the downfall of the union.It is not the rats fault it is your own.


The rats rent apartments from me. The rats are driving across 4 states to find crumbs. The rats are making less on a commercial job for a commercial outfit than I was working on residential roping in the 80's
The rats think lowering their own wages will lead to more jobs. 

Sorry, no whiskers or tail here. 

For some reason you're all under the impression if you only work harder and accept less everything will be jake... forgive my laughter but it's warranted.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

bperrone said:


> lawnguylandsparky we both local 3 are you working at the moment


At the moment I'm home eating seafood salad. But employed yes. You?


----------



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Someone learns how to read blueprints because they want to learn and advance? They ALL learn how to read blueprints, whether they'll play foreman, layout man and installer for one low low price is an entirely different thing. Tell you what - 50 guys on a nonunion job, 2 foremen, 10 journeymen, 30 various positions from "JUNIOR mechanic" to laborer all learn read and work off of blueprints and guess what?
> 
> 10 year later there's still only 1 foreman...
> 
> ...




Again you have clearly proved you have absolutely no self respect.

Great way to live.


You should try to get away from NY and it's union BS, come out where people are more concerned about proving their own worth then worrying about who is going to hold their hand and 'protect them' from actually having to produce, from actually having to work 40 hrs for 40 hours pay.


----------



## user10002 (Dec 3, 2009)

brian john said:


> Man you have an inflated ego. I have NEVER KNOW of a shop that will not hire an intelligent employee. NOW if they think you are a salt or appear to be a slug, you butt will stay on the bench.





Bob Badger said:


> Again you have clearly proved you have absolutely no self respect.
> 
> Great way to live.
> 
> ...


no one is protecting us from having to produce the locals look down on non productive members and will not protect you when laid off with such accusations even if they are false. thats why log books kept in black and white bound notebooks are necessary as well as pictures documenting daily production. running around sloppin stuff together quickly without using proper material is not productive btw


----------



## user10002 (Dec 3, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> At the moment I'm home eating seafood salad. But employed yes. You?


how is the seafood salad? i am currently unemployed


----------



## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

bperrone said:


> In these unfortuniate times in our industry we are supposed to come together and rebuild our reputation as the best electricians money can buy. all while sharing the unemployment evenly throughout the membership this way some are not losing their homes and families while others stay employed clear over 100 grand and take a mere 14 weeks off. Now the powers that be (who coinsidently have not truly earned their current position but were brought through family name ) are asking true class A journeymen and women to take a lower rate of pay. well there are seperate divisions set a side to make a lower rate and they were handed A cards and stay employed cause they organized in with the company they are employed by. what chance do we have when we are unemployed for 40 weeks get back to work for less pay and it takes at least 4 weeks to get back into the swing of things. Members or ibew it is time to reunite together as a whole and on the smaller scale of our local unions. any thoughts on how unions can regain the majority of the electrical work and kep its members employed


bperrone, for the record, i really don't disagree with you...i disagree with the rhetoric and BS...you're post above could have been written by one of the 2000+ local 3 guys who are out of work...guys that many in your local (and on this board) write off as 'hall trash'...

it's also the antithesis of what the union wants you to believe...here is an interesting article, that talks about local 3's work share and how good it is...

take a look


----------



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

bperrone said:


> no one is protecting us from having to produce the locals look down on non productive members and will not protect you when laid off with such accusations even if they are false. thats why log books kept in black and white bound notebooks are necessary as well as pictures documenting daily production. running around sloppin stuff together quickly without using proper material is not productive btw



That is pure crap.

Productivity is relative, so yeah a guy that does 4 hours real work looks like a star beside the guy that does nothing.

I have no doubt if I had you on my crew you would look like a slacker.


----------



## user10002 (Dec 3, 2009)

oldman said:


> bperrone, for the record, i really don't disagree with you...i disagree with the rhetoric and BS...you're post above could have been written by one of the 2000+ local 3 guys who are out of work...guys that many in your local (and on this board) write off as 'hall trash'...
> 
> it's also the antithesis of what the union wants you to believe...here is an interesting article, that talks about local 3's work share and how good it is...
> 
> take a look


i receive union world at my home but thanks i read that article and don't agree with our current leadership at all the work share that has been established is failing. there are members who currently are employed and taking a mere 14 weeks off and still making plenty of money and filling their funds. how does that compare to 30+ weeks of unemployment. well it does not. the sad thing is that being employed steadily throughout my local is not based on how good you perform on the job or how much you produce. if the right person likes or dislikes you you either gonna be covered or screwed. thats why i would like to see a better dispursement employment during these tough and trying times. and the label hall trash is a horrible one cause all union electricians came from the hall at some point and i have been on many jobs where the shop guys do the easy clean work and the hall guys do the heavy dirty hard work and them are laid off. both those titles hall guys and shop guys are ruining the industry and seperating the membership which in turn weakens the local. anyway we are all entitled to our opinion


----------



## user10002 (Dec 3, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> That is pure crap.
> 
> Productivity is relative, so yeah a guy that does 4 hours real work looks like a star beside the guy that does nothing.
> 
> I have no doubt if I had you on my crew you would look like a slacker.


well you are incorrect cause i am very productive and good at what i do i think if i was on your crew i would teach you a thing or two wll that is if you would be open to learning but you seem kind of thick headed so i doubt it.


----------



## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

bperrone said:


> well you are incorrect cause i am very productive and good at what i do i think if i was on your crew i would teach you a thing or two wll that is if you would be open to learning but you seem kind of thick headed so i doubt it.


:laughing:..........:laughing:

If your so great how come you don't have a job?


----------



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

bperrone said:


> well you are incorrect cause i am very productive and good at what i do


You may be a super genius that works at lightning speed ..... compared to the others around you. 

How that would compare to the production of our crews remains to be seen. We drive the guys hard, very hard they are also well compensated and benefited for that hard work. 




> i think if i was on your crew i would teach you a thing or two wll that is if you would be open to learning but you seem kind of thick headed so i doubt it.


Thanks for proving my point about going right into personal attacks.:laughing:


----------



## user10002 (Dec 3, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> That is pure crap.
> 
> Productivity is relative, so yeah a guy that does 4 hours real work looks like a star beside the guy that does nothing.
> 
> I have no doubt if I had you on my crew you would look like a slacker.


you are proving your point about yourself see you personally attacked my character first so think before you speak i can tell your eduction level is either comminty college or less cause how you talk about something that you are doing yet you dont even realize you are doing it you call me the slacker and then expect me to try to have an inteligent conversation with you i feel sorry for you man i really do clueless just like robnj u guys banging each other


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

My crew is better than all of your crews combined. :tt2:


----------



## user10002 (Dec 3, 2009)

robnj772 said:


> :laughing:..........:laughing:
> 
> If your so great how come you don't have a job?


i shouldnt be responding to you but its cause i got a lack of work lay off after running a bms job completing the job in 6 weeks when it was scheduled for 18 weeks with a crew of a 57 year old journeyman and a 30 year old 2nd year apprentice:thumbup:


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

bperrone said:


> i shouldnt be responding to you but its cause i got a lack of work lay off after running a bms job completing the job in 6 weeks when it was scheduled for 18 weeks with a crew of a 57 year old journeyman and a 30 year old 2nd year apprentice:thumbup:


Boring! :sleep1:


----------



## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

bperrone said:


> i shouldnt be responding to you but its cause i got a lack of work lay off after running a bms job completing the job in 6 weeks when it was scheduled for 18 weeks with a crew of a 57 year old journeyman and a 30 year old 2nd year apprentice:thumbup:


:chef:


----------



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

bperrone said:


> you are proving your point about yourself see you personally attacked my character first so think before you speak i can tell your eduction level is either comminty college or less cause how you talk about something that you are doing yet you dont even realize you are doing it you call me the slacker and then expect me to try to have an inteligent conversation with you i feel sorry for you man i really do clueless just like robnj u guys banging each other



If you're going to goof on someones education it would be more meaningful if you could spell intelligent. Or at least make a coherent sentence.



BTW, I dropped out of High school in the 10th grade so I did not even make it to "comminty college":laughing:


----------



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Peter D said:


> My crew is better than all of your crews combined. :tt2:



I know. :jester:


----------



## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

I do find it interesting that the OP came on essentially bashing the union for how they operate. 

A few guys agreed, and explained that's why the are non-union. 

And the OP feels the need to then defend the union that is currently screwing him. 

It's like a beaten wife.


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

bperrone said:


> you are proving your point about yourself see you personally attacked my character first so think before you speak i can tell your eduction level is either comminty college or less cause how you talk about something that you are doing yet you dont even realize you are doing it you call me the slacker and then expect me to try to have an inteligent conversation with you i feel sorry for you man i really do clueless just like robnj u guys banging each other



I do not know you and your knowledge about our trade, you may be one of the best electricians. I can tell you I have know Bob Badger on line in two different forums and his post are more than in a union section. His post are informative and he comes across as very knowledgeable regarding our trade. I cannot think one one post you have made that shows you know anything about our profession, but then you only have 33 post.

Most (not all) of the union members of this forum seldom most anything regarding the trade in any section but here. When you have added something informative to the other sections proving you know something regarding our profession maybe you will get some respect.


----------



## Charlie K (Aug 14, 2008)

brian john said:


> I do not know you and your knowledge about our trade, you may be one of the best electricians. I can tell you I have know Bob Badger on line in two different forums and his post are more than in a union section. His post are informative and he comes across as very knowledgeable regarding our trade. I cannot think one one post you have made that shows you know anything about our profession, but then you only have 33 post.
> 
> Most (not all) of the union members of this forum seldom most anything regarding the trade in any section but here. When you have added something informative to the other sections proving you know something regarding our profession maybe you will get some respect.


 
Very well said Brian.

Charlie


----------



## al13nw4r3LC76 (Apr 6, 2009)

lets stoke the fire here a little. Some of those rat tails are real hard to pull off! cheese eatin fiends!


----------



## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

al13nw4r3LC76 said:


> lets stoke the fire here a little. Some of those rat tails are real hard to pull off! cheese eatin fiends!


back in the day, apprenti were only allowed to pull tails off field mice...wth is happening to the unions?:laughing:


----------



## user10002 (Dec 3, 2009)

oldman said:


> I do find it interesting that the OP came on essentially bashing the union for how they operate.
> 
> A few guys agreed, and explained that's why the are non-union.
> 
> ...


i guess you \didnt understand the point i was making.


----------



## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

bperrone said:


> i guess you \didnt understand the point i was making.


guess not


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

bperrone said:


> i guess you \didnt understand the point i was making.


And in regards to this




> I do not know you and your knowledge about our trade, you may be one of the best electricians. I can tell you I have know Bob Badger on line in two different forums and his post are more than in a union section. His post are informative and he comes across as very knowledgeable regarding our trade. I cannot think one one post you have made that shows you know anything about our profession, but then you only have 33 post.
> 
> Most (not all) of the union members of this forum seldom most anything regarding the trade in any section but here. When you have added something informative to the other sections proving you know something regarding our profession maybe you will get some respect.?


----------



## Rockyd (Apr 22, 2007)

> Most (not all) of the union members of this forum seldom most anything regarding the trade in any section but here.


Sad but true. A lot of people come here looking for a fight, when they should be busy chilling out, and seeing the whole picture. Almost makes it hard to post when a poster is busy huffing and puffing, rather than following a thread. 

Back to the OP's question of will the unions survive?

The IBEW right now is just like the country's political parties - a mess for a variety of reasons. Till either one shapes up, and flies right, they won't be popular with anyone. When the unions stop supporting nation destroying policies like this current administration is doing, we can think aout actually winning the hearts of like minded electricians. 

People who put America first above all the greenie, envirowhack , leftist trash, that would be willing to be in a union take one look at the current industry, are not liking what they see. I would think that if the unions were more centrist, and provided an accurate projection of leadership, there would be significant growth in the rank and file. There's no reason to union membership couldn't grow to somewhere north of 33% in short order...if we provided opportunity in the future.

Democrats and republicans have sold America a bill of goods that no one wants. Unfortunately the union leadership thinks they have to be anchored with the democrats. maybe they should consider the direction of the TEA (Taxed Enough Already) party, and the where country is going. Civil disobedience is normally the first part of intiating change.


----------



## KFC (Dec 25, 2009)

Rockyd said:


> Sad but true. A lot of people come here looking for a fight, when they should be busy chilling out, and seeing the whole picture. Almost makes it hard to post when a poster is busy huffing and puffing, rather than following a thread.
> 
> Back to the OP's question of will the unions survive?
> 
> ...


 
Well put. Our Local always leans towards the Dems. At first we heard, " Just wait til we get Congress". Then, "Just wait til we get the White House"... Now both are trying to force an agenda that will cost us a 40% tax on our insurance??? NOW they wake up and say hey what are ya'll doing"?... Duh!!! :blink:


----------

