# Switiching Neutral? WTF



## chknkatsu (Aug 3, 2008)

so while prepping my parents how for paint (removing fixtures and finish plates). i ended up discovering that the light switch in their room was switched at the neutral instead of the hot after i got shocked. WTF.

this house is about 40 years old and it seems like this is the only switch in the house that was wired like that...is this how switched were wired back then?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I don't know the rhyme or reason behind it, but you will often find switched neutrals in older houses. This is why I always keep my tick tracer handy, it's easy to identify which wire is actually the hot one.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

You sure it wasn't a switch loop? I've only seen switched neutrals on oooooold stuff.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Ticker is key, you never know who was there before you and what they were thinking.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Switching the neutral on 3-ways was COMMON among the the cheapo old-timer electricians.

It, the techinque, goes by a ton of slang terms:

California 3-way on over.

Check the back threads here at ET.

It's been beaten to death.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Cali 3 ways scare me. lol


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Majewski said:


> Cali 3 ways scare me. lol


Amen, I've never cared for bottle blondes and fake breasts!


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Amen, I've never cared for bottle blondes and fake breasts!


Bottled blondes are OK in my coloring book. 
But fake hangers just ain't right.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## chknkatsu (Aug 3, 2008)

Going_Commando said:


> You sure it wasn't a switch loop? I've only seen switched neutrals on oooooold stuff.


please explain? :blink:

NVM: looked it up. no it was not a switch loop. ive seen them before and i can usually spot them


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## chknkatsu (Aug 3, 2008)

i know for sure its a "normal" switch, not one of those crazy ones you guys are speaking of. the feed for the switch comes from the closest outlet and i pulled a new home run into that room. there literally is no reason why it was switched at the neutral


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## chknkatsu (Aug 3, 2008)

telsa said:


> Switching the neutral on 3-ways was COMMON among the the cheapo old-timer electricians.
> 
> It, the techinque, goes by a ton of slang terms:
> 
> ...


i just looked up california 3-way...thats scary


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

chknkatsu said:


> i just looked up california 3-way...thats scary


Yup, it has variations too and different names! I've walked into a few before knowing what they were. I had to call my friend and cry for help!


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## ~48~ (Jul 24, 2016)

HackWork said:


> I don't know the rhyme or reason behind it, but you will often find switched neutrals in older houses. This is why I always keep my tick tracer handy, it's easy to identify which wire is actually the hot one.


Dude, be careful telling people that. Voltage readings with reference to ground can tell you more than a tick tracer almost ever could. But in the situation I started a thread about, everything in a box can potentially show up as hot if there's any magnetic field that resembles that made by 50-600V circuits. The Fluke LVDT2, for instance, can differentiate between hot and neutral (sometimes), but most tick tracers cannot if there's something wired wrong in the circuit.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

~48~ said:


> Dude, be careful telling people that. Voltage readings with reference to ground can tell you more than a tick tracer almost ever could. But in the situation I started a thread about, everything in a box can potentially show up as hot if there's any magnetic field that resembles that made by 50-600V circuits. The Fluke LVDT2, for instance, can differentiate between hot and neutral (sometimes), but most tick tracers cannot if there's something wired wrong in the circuit.


That's why my Wiggy is right there with me as well.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

For the record. Telsa has been incorrect in his associating the words ''california '' three way to a switched neutral three way system so I would like to take a moment to straighten it out for the younger crowd here. 

What telsa should be calling that setup is by it's proper name- Carter three way system. Google the term for the history. California three way is describing the feeding of the light fixture and then running two dead end three wire cables from that central point to switches. The feed neutral goes directly to the light fixture (or spliced and pigtailed to the light if there is other points needing a feed as well in the building.), and the hot of the feed goes down as common on one of the three wire cables, power then goes thru the travellers to the other switch and returns to the light on the common wire of the second three way switch. That's a California three way setup.


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## Anathera (Feb 16, 2016)

Just did a service call on a 1970s home with a switched neutral, trick was the black wire was the one carrying the neutral current from the fan


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## B-Nabs (Jun 4, 2014)

The attached diagram is what I know as a California 3-way. The reason I heard it got its name is because back in the day you could fit a maximum of 4 #14 wires in a half inch pipe, so this wiring method was a common way to get a light and receptacle at, say, a garage, with the light switched both at the garage and the house, without needing to upsize the pipe. There is also nothing illegal about this setup, and I actually think it's kind of cool.


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## chknkatsu (Aug 3, 2008)

macmikeman said:


> For the record. Telsa has been incorrect in his associating the words ''california '' three way to a switched neutral three way system so I would like to take a moment to straighten it out for the younger crowd here.
> 
> What telsa should be calling that setup is by it's proper name- Carter three way system. Google the term for the history. California three way is describing the feeding of the light fixture and then running two dead end three wire cables from that central point to switches. The feed neutral goes directly to the light fixture (or spliced and pigtailed to the light if there is other points needing a feed as well in the building.), and the hot of the feed goes down as common on one of the three wire cables, power then goes thru the travellers to the other switch and returns to the light on the common wire of the second three way switch. That's a California three way setup.



so its just a regular 3-way? is it against code?

the only "bad" i see is that if you run a 2-conductor, the white wires will be hot either as the feed, the traveler, or switch leg


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

How long have you been an apprentice? If you use the white as a hot you need to reidentify it as a hot. The way things are drawn on paper isn't necessarily the way it is actually wired.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Shouldn't be a problem if you identify it with some black tape right?


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Bird dog said:


> How long have you been an apprentice? If you use the white as a hot you need to reidentify it as a hot. The way things are drawn on paper isn't necessarily the way it is actually wired.


Jinx!!!


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

Better to have you follow me than the ground rod crazies.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Crazies are everywhere!


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## chknkatsu (Aug 3, 2008)

Bird dog said:


> How long have you been an apprentice? If you use the white as a hot you need to reidentify it as a hot. The way things are drawn on paper isn't necessarily the way it is actually wired.


eh?:001_huh:


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Where he lose ya?


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## chknkatsu (Aug 3, 2008)

Majewski said:


> Where he lose ya?


i understand what he's saying. im not proficient with codes like most on here


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Oh ok. That's ok, me either! Plus they always change lol.


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