# Ice melting system (CSA) listed - low voltage?



## mitch65 (Mar 26, 2015)

low voltage is anything below 750V


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## Max C. (Sep 29, 2016)

In short, it depends. Just a plain CSA mark would probably not be deemed acceptable. However, if it bears the "CSA-US" or "C-CSA-US" mark, it would be no issue. Its comparable for Canadians, except we need "C-UL," "C-UL-US" and so on.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

Max C. said:


> In short, it depends. Just a plain CSA mark would probably not be deemed acceptable. However, if it bears the "CSA-US" or "C-CSA-US" mark, it would be no issue. Its comparable for Canadians, except we need "C-UL," "C-UL-US" and so on.


This was several years ago.

I have not seen one since (or before).

It had a large cabinet with a panel board and 2 or 3 round 
transformers on the panel board.

It lowered the input voltage (240 volt / 30 amps single phase) 
to a lower voltage which I cannot recall.

the output voltage was so low , you had to run #2 cooper to each
panel connection point . The product came with crimp on connectors.

I could not wrap my mind around how this very low voltage
melted ice...Induction ?


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

lighterup said:


> This was several years ago.
> 
> I have not seen one since (or before).
> 
> ...



I heard about it but myself I never see that type of set up you describing but yuh .,, Induction will do the trick if you know how to route the conductors correctly., 

the output of that set up I belive it is not over 10 maybe 15 volts the tops. but one major qurik which I am aware is splices it have to be very good splice typically compression splices.

but again this type of methold is not very common anyway basically the same way with some water department to thaw out frozen underground water pipe by running a welder and clamp at one fire hydrant and the other one at other fire hydrant and crank the welder unit to max and it will thaw the water pipe pretty quick. ( majorty of water departments is no longer do this any more of this style due stray voltage/current go to other customer house and do some damage )


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

frenchelectrican said:


> I heard about it but myself I never see that type of set up you describing but yuh .,, Induction will do the trick if you know how to route the conductors correctly.,
> 
> the output of that set up I belive it is not over 10 maybe 15 volts the tops. but one major qurik which I am aware is splices it have to be very good splice typically compression splices.
> 
> but again this type of methold is not very common anyway basically the same way with some water department to thaw out frozen underground water pipe by running a welder and clamp at one fire hydrant and the other one at other fire hydrant and crank the welder unit to max and it will thaw the water pipe pretty quick. ( majorty of water departments is no longer do this any more of this style due stray voltage/current go to other customer house and do some damage )


Yes .I believe it was 15 volts...and yes again to the fitting..PITA!
I would not be interested in installing this system again.


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## JohnJ65 (May 8, 2008)

I just had a customer call yesterday asking about an ice melting system that his roofing contractor proposed to install under the shingles when they re-shingled his roof. 

I told him I had not heard of anything other then the type installed on top of the shingles after the fact. 

Not knowing what I needed to provide for him I assumed it would need a GFCI outlet at the eves.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

That's not correct. Read 210.8 & pay attention to the exception


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## JohnJ65 (May 8, 2008)

lighterup said:


> That's not correct. Read 210.8 & pay attention to the exception


You are correct. the exception allows ice melt equipment to not be GFCI protected.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

JohnJ65 said:


> You are correct. the exception allows ice melt equipment to not be GFCI protected.


Yeah I wish it were gfci protection requirement. IDK about you , but
get this look.....when I tell a customer how much a gfep breaker 
costs along with a dedicated circuit.

I lost track years ago how difficult of a selling point _correct installation_
of fixed electric deicing equipment system is.

With regard to the system you described above , that sounds like
a Bylin Industries patented system.


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## jsmart84 (Nov 20, 2011)

There's quote a few products that go.underneath including Zmesh etc. I use a a variety of products depending on budget etc. I like the heated panels by melt.your ice.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Doesn’t have to be that hot to melt ice in winter, just a little warm.

I used to service a few buildings that had low voltage ice melting for the ramp into underground parking. It was buss bars going under concrete coming off of a transformer. Very intimidating working on it as I was just an apprentice and didn’t understand how it worked.


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## PokeySmokey (Nov 14, 2017)

lighterup said:


> This was several years ago.
> 
> I have not seen one since (or before).
> 
> ...


Hello Lighterup

Check out the link below. It shows the different CSA Marks and the country the equipment ahs an approval for:

http://www.csagroup.org/services-industries/marks-labels/csa-marks/


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

I'm late to this party It isn't volts that heats a wire, it's amps.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

RePhase277 said:


> I'm late to this party It isn't volts that heats a wire, it's amps.


I cannot remember the system , I just do not think it
is a "resistance" load. I think it was something else
and it had CSA labeling on it. I'm curious if guys in
Canada see this frequently and can explain it to me
like I'm a 2 year old.:thumbsup:


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## PokeySmokey (Nov 14, 2017)

All Electric Ice melting systems whether Line Voltage or Low Voltage are resistance which use the I square X R formula to calculate the wattage. (I = amps, R = resistance)

There are many types of resistance de-icing products.

We are shooting in the dark here since many companies that make these products are out of business. News ones keep popping while some old ones disappear.

If you could remember a name or partial name it may be helpful.

Wire loop using a single resistance wire (Cannot be cut).

Mats which have the supply conductors at the edges of the mat and fine wires running between supply conductors. (Depending on design and specs; some of these mats can be cut to length in the field. The have special termination and end cap accessories.)

Mats which have the supply conductors at the edges of the mat with a carbon film between supply conductors. (Depending on design and specs; some of these mats can be cut to length in the field. The have special termination and end cap accessories.) These systems are not suitable where a lot of movement occurred. Due to season changes: very cold winters and very hot summers roof material does move a lot. This causes the carbon film to separate thus creating dead zones.

There are other Ice melt systems that use a liquid (antifreeze solution) pumped through thin tubes. These are normally used for driveway ice melting and some are designed for floor warming. These systems are electrically controlled and the controls are usually low voltage (about 24 volts). Have not seen these systems installed on roofs.

Then there are heat pump systems that have options to de-ice driveways. Have not heard of or seen any for roof de-icing.

The above design types were all CSA approved at some time and manufactured by many different companies.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

PokeySmokey said:


> All Electric Ice melting systems whether Line Voltage or Low Voltage are resistance which use the I square X R formula to calculate the wattage. (I = amps, R = resistance)
> 
> There are many types of resistance de-icing products.
> 
> ...


Thanx for the info.
I did not provide the product back then , but now that you mention "mats" , I do believe they were mats & roofer installed these mats
under a flat roof.

It's as you described above ...very thin wiring coming out of the left 
and right sides of each mat. I never saw the other ends of the mats which were already buried in drywall , so I have no idea about the opposite
ends of each mat , just the ends I was working on.

Had to run # 2 copper thhn in conduit from a large panel board to 
each j-box at the end of each mat. The panel board had (2) circular
shaped transformers in it.

The runs from the board to each mat were not allowed to exceed 
(maybe 15'??) I don't remember.

I did not find this unit an appropriate choice of product because 
the panel boards which had doors on them were industrial in their
appearance and we had to surface mount them in a very ritzy
house on the wall of an enclosed veranda which had a walk out 
to a flat roof. It was butt a ugly look for a tasteful elegant room.


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## NormousD (Nov 12, 2017)

lighterup said:


> I'm curious if guys in
> Canada see this frequently and can explain it to me
> like I'm a 2 year old.:thumbsup:


No they are obviously selling to a different market, Canadians are all given snow blowers when they are born as a gift from the Government.


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