# Smoke outside of Bedroom Question



## Mr. Sparkle (Jan 27, 2009)

So what if the kitchen is right outside the bedroom?

I'm supposed to put a smoke within 10' of the bedroom but putting one right in the kitchen would be dumb.

Do I just have to be dumb?


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

In Mass you are not required to have a smoke outside of a bedroom if that room happens to be a kitchen.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Mr. Sparkle said:


> So what if the kitchen is right outside the bedroom?
> 
> I'm supposed to put a smoke within 10' of the bedroom but putting one right in the kitchen would be dumb.
> 
> Do I just have to be dumb?


 

Along with what Scott said, they also make specially designed smokes for kitchens.


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## davis9 (Mar 21, 2009)

electricmanscott said:


> In Mass you are not required to have a smoke outside of a bedroom if that room happens to be a kitchen.



Do you have a link to that information?

Tom

I have this for reference, but see nothing about what you say.

http://www.mass.gov/Eeops/docs/dfs/dfs_briefs/march_2010/consumers_guide.pdf


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## fjm (Jun 26, 2011)

what version of nfpa72 is NJ using now, lent my 2001 out while back and never got it back.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

davis9 said:


> Do you have a link to that information?
> 
> Tom
> 
> ...


 
Around here, we have to put them in each bedroom, and also a common area outside of the bedrooms. The common area smoke is required to be within 10 feet of the bedrooms


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## Sparky J (May 17, 2011)

There are 2 basic types photoelectronic and (forgive me) something else. One is better suited for kitchen outside bathrooms and laundry areas as steam won't set it off like the standard ones. You could probably check out Firex's website they are probably listed there or your supply house may have info too.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Sparky J said:


> There are 2 basic types photoelectronic and (forgive me) something else. One is better suited for kitchen outside bathrooms and laundry areas as steam won't set it off like the standard ones. You could probably check out Firex's website they are probably listed there or your supply house may have info too.


 

http://www.smokesign.com/kitallpursmo.html


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

davis9 said:


> Do you have a link to that information?
> 
> Tom
> 
> ...


I looked for the info. I have it on a spec sheet from some town but couldn't find it in the actual code.


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## davis9 (Mar 21, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Around here, we have to put them in each bedroom, and also a common area outside of the bedrooms. The common area smoke is required to be within 10 feet of the bedrooms


Just about the same here. The CO detector has to be within 10', no actual footage on the smoke AFAIKT.

Tom:thumbsup:


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Mr. Sparkle said:


> So what if the kitchen is right outside the bedroom?
> 
> I'm supposed to put a smoke within 10' of the bedroom but putting one right in the kitchen would be dumb.
> 
> Do I just have to be dumb?


I am amazed at how so many electricians worry about what they can get by with. We all know that the code is the minimum.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

davis9 said:


> Just about the same here. The CO detector has to be within 10', no actual footage on the smoke AFAIKT.
> 
> Tom:thumbsup:


 
The CO detector is only required here if there is a fuel burning appliance in the home.


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## davis9 (Mar 21, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> The CO detector is only required here if there is a fuel burning appliance in the home.



Same for fuel burning appliances, but also if there is an attached garage.

Tom:thumbsup:


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

The only place CO detector is needed is outside of bedrooms?


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## davis9 (Mar 21, 2009)

It's all in the link I posted. You also need one on every habitable level of the home. There are some other requirements in the fuel gas code I believe as well. So much stuff all over the place.

Tom


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## LARMGUY (Aug 22, 2010)

What version NFPA 72 are you working with?


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

larmguy said:


> what version nfpa 72 are you working with?


2008


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## Mr. Sparkle (Jan 27, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> I am amazed at how so many electricians worry about what they can get by with. We all know that the code is the minimum.


I am amazed that you think I am one of those kinds of electricians, I don't have my copy of NFPA 72 anymore because I was too nice and let a former coworker borrow it a while back and like everyone else I have ever loaned anything to he skipped town without returning it.

I was picking brains here for a quick answer and as it turns out I only need to put a CO2 detector there anyhow.

Thanks everyone who helped.


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## davis9 (Mar 21, 2009)

The hard part is usually the CO detector manufacturer doesn't recommend one in the kitchen usually but the fire dept wants it.

Tom


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Doesn't mass want an all in one, photo/CO?


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## davis9 (Mar 21, 2009)

Doesn't have to be. Check the link I posted, it applies to one and two family dwellings. Now, if I could get the local FD's to actually read and enforce this it would be great.

Tom


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I did a large remodel in Westford last year and thought that was what was needed. I had the FD visit at the beginning to look and maybe thats what he wanted. I can't remember. I ended up with Firex all in ones that talk and you can program which room they are in. Pretty nerdy sounding.


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## davis9 (Mar 21, 2009)

Yeah, too many times the individual Inspector has an idea of what's needed an enforces it. Not sure why the state makes laws.LOL Some cities have multiple inspectors and it's different for them as well. Usually one is using the book and the other is using their preference.

Tom


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

It was a remodel/new with enough work that it might have been considered a new home depending on who you were talking to. These bigger homes you start to run into a problem with the number of detectors you can tie together. I noticed the pamphlet asks for ones at the base of the stairs. This had two stairwells. I can remember getting one at the base of one of the stairs. Don't think I got the other one. We walked the whole loop and he said it was fine. Everything else was there though, in the bedrooms, outside the bedrooms, one per floor, basement, finished attic. The old section was a royal pain because they wanted to save the walls and do blown in.


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## davis9 (Mar 21, 2009)

Yeah, bigger homes get the LV stuff. 12 smokes and 18 total devices is usually the limit I see.

Tom


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I think thats why I had him look because we were running out of devices. I felt the coverage was fine.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> I am amazed at how so many electricians worry about what they can get by with. We all know that the code is the minimum.


I am amazed you keep pounding this point, yet you do not bid work, run a business, or even care about profit. Until then, your opinion means nothing IMO


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## electures (Oct 23, 2008)

fjm said:


> what version of nfpa72 is NJ using now, lent my 2001 out while back and never got it back.


Follow this link and look on page 66. This is the fire subcode for New Jersey.


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## kbatku (Oct 18, 2011)

Another oddity is homes with security/fire systems. Around here they used to require hard wired smokes even if the system had smoke detectors of its own. A good idea if you ask me. Now they let you get away with not installing if the home has an alarm system.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

nrp3 said:


> I did a large remodel in Westford last year


How was Mr Kane? :whistling2:


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## electures (Oct 23, 2008)

kbatku said:


> Another oddity is homes with security/fire systems. Around here they used to require hard wired smokes even if the system had smoke detectors of its own. A good idea if you ask me. Now they let you get away with not installing if the home has an alarm system.


SAme here in New Jersey. The problem comes when the alarm company removes the equipment at the end of the lease leaving the home unprotected.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

RIVETER said:


> I am amazed at how so many electricians worry about what they can get by with. We all know that the code is the minimum.





mcclary's electrical said:


> I am amazed you keep pounding this point, yet you do not bid work, run a business, or even care about profit. Until then, your opinion means nothing IMO


Thanks for posting that mcclarys as that is exactly what I was thinking 

Such strong opinions from a guy that has not had to design electrical systems, has not had to be the one to worry about code compliance nor has to worry about being competive while doing the first two items. 

He lives in an entirely different and protected world.


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## LARMGUY (Aug 22, 2010)

Here is the latest change to NFPA 72 regarding smokes outside bedrooms that are next to kitchens.

According to SDM Magazine, www.sdmmag.com, Feb 2012, page 81, *Smoke and CO Detector Standards Updated.*



> The latest NFPA fire protection standard 2010 version, 29.8.3.4(4) prohibits the use of smoke detectors within 10 feet of a fixed cooking appliance except in cases where the 10 foot area of exclusion would prohibit the placement of a smoke detector required by other sections of the standard such as 29.5.1.1 requiring smokes to be installed outside bedrooms. In this exception a photoelectric smoke is authorized to be placed as close as 6 (six) feet to the cooking appliance.
> The 10 foot rule was brought about as a solution to reduce the most frequent cause of residential nuisance fire alarms which ultimately result in the homeowner rendering the smoke detection devices inoperative. The 2010 version also states any smoke detector installed between 10 and 20 feet of a cooking appliance must be *EITHER* equipped with a silencing means or equipped with photoelectric detection.
> They made this choice because ionization detectors are more sensitive to small particles of combustion given off by cooking activities. *BUT* because virtually all smokes in monitored systems are photoelectric, the new requirement will have little impact on these monitored systems.
> 
> For more information there is a replay of a webinar available at www.systemsensor.com/webinars


I saw the discussion about most electricians install to minimal code but in this case I would defer to the experts. 

Edit: The article also states a change to CO detectors being required to provide an end-of-life signal different from the CO alarm provided by a timer or self detection.


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