# Phase Rotation



## Zog

mikeb said:


> Hope someone can lead me in the right direction:
> 
> Is there a way to find phase rotation (abc, cba) on high voltage (4160V, 12.47kV) lines? I looked for a meter but it seems that this doesn't exist.


Look for "phasing sticks" very common, if you cant fond it I will post some links but google is your friend. Dont look for high voltage, you are looking for medium voltage.


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## 480sparky

Here ya go.


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## mikeb

I was looking at something similar. Megger makes hot sticks. I called the factory and they told me that they will NOT give me phase rotation direction.

Zog, can you give me some links?

480sparky: Thanks for the link! I'm looking into this product.

-Mike


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## Zog

mikeb said:


> I was looking at something similar. Megger makes hot sticks. I called the factory and they told me that they will NOT give me phase rotation direction.
> 
> Zog, can you give me some links?
> 
> 480sparky: Thanks for the link! I'm looking into this product.
> 
> -Mike


Like I said, no rotation ,eter that I know of, only phasing sticks. http://www.hubbellpowersystems.com/powertest/products/BestTN/TN0604_11.pdf

You can take your readings to ensure you have the same rotation betwens 2 points but you dont really know what direction the rotation is, thats why marking is so vital in MV systems.


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## mikeb

Zog: Can you explain the "same rotation" between two points?

This sounds like phasing sticks would tell me if from "a" to "b" is 120deg or 240deg from each other?


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## safspir

Ideal brand, Model 61-361, meter available at Home Depot for about $125. Has phase rotation checking feature. Rugged little unit. I've owned one for three years. Of course this won't work in your application because of the 500 Volt rating, but for others it's a handy piece.


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## william1978

safspir said:


> Ideal brand, Model 61-361, meter available at Home Depot for about $125. Has phase rotation checking feature. Rugged little unit. I've owned one for three years. Of course this won't work in your application because of the 500 Volt rating, but for others it's a handy piece.


 I'm sure that tester is good up to 600v the op is asking for 4160v and 12470v.


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## william1978

BTW welcome to the forum safspir and mikeb


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## mikeb

william1978 said:


> I'm sure that tester is good up to 600v the op is asking for 4160v and 12470v.


William,

You are right: low voltage is easy to handle. I need to read rotation direction at med voltage (our applications are mostly 4160, 11.5kV, 12.47kV, 13.2kV, 13.8kV, 14.4kV).

Any other ideas. I was actually looking for a small med voltage motor to read rotation. I really need to make this happen.


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## safspir

For 4160 try http://www.hotektech.com/StST109G0102.htm


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## william1978

safspir said:


> For 4160 try http://www.hotektech.com/StST109G0102.htm


 There ya go. :thumbsup:


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## Zog

mikeb said:


> Zog: Can you explain the "same rotation" between two points?
> 
> This sounds like phasing sticks would tell me if from "a" to "b" is 120deg or 240deg from each other?


I mean you can tell if your 2 sources are both rotating the same direction, but not what direction they are rotating. If A1-A2=oV, B1-B2=oV, C1-C2=oV your rotations are the same, if you have voltages they are not (Or you possibly have a phase shift occuring). 

But it looks like someone else found just what you are looking for, I may order one myself.


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## mivey

Go to nearest PT/metering/service point, find the rotation with a regular rotation meter, and ride the line to where you are looking at. For a service, just install the bank and figure the rotation afterwards. 

I guess the meter in #11 would be handy, but I've never had a situation where I needed one.

What is your application, if I may ask?


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## mikeb

mivey said:


> Go to nearest PT/metering/service point, find the rotation with a regular rotation meter, and ride the line to where you are looking at. For a service, just install the bank and figure the rotation afterwards.
> 
> I guess the meter in #11 would be handy, but I've never had a situation where I needed one.
> 
> What is your application, if I may ask?


Downstream from some backup generators.


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## Faultfinder1

I am currently working on a website for, and shortly will be going into business with a gentleman who represents several lines of equipment for every situation. Basically, and in his words, "There is absolutely nothing that we cannot test". 
I assure you, he can help! I don't know if I am allowed on these forums to post contact information - if you PM me I can get you the direct contact information that you need. I would highly recommend contacting him before you jump in and buy something that you may not be able to use for your application. 

www.faultlocating.com


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## LGLS

mikeb said:


> Hope someone can lead me in the right direction:
> 
> Is there a way to find phase rotation (abc, cba) on high voltage (4160V, 12.47kV) lines? I looked for a meter but it seems that this doesn't exist.


I can't help with the rotation thingy... but if this is a blender it must make one helluva mudslide...:thumbup:


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## warnerms

Hm, an Oscilloscope and a couple of High Voltage Probes?


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## brian john

warnerms said:


> Hm, an Oscilloscope and a couple of High Voltage Probes?


While that would be workable if you had PTs available it is not typically the method of choice.


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## mikeb

Thanks for the hlep everyone. We are going to run through a piece of switchgear that has pt's and ct's that I can use as a test point.


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## JoeHVD

Zog said:


> Look for "phasing sticks" very common, if you cant fond it I will post some links but google is your friend. Dont look for high voltage, you are looking for medium voltage.


 
Go to bierermeters.com, they have a meter called a PDSeries 25kV or 50kV model that will phase sequence anything from 208Volts to 50kV and up if you add extension resistors.


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## JoeHVD

If you do any high voltage rotation get either a PD25 or PD50 meter from Bierer Meters. These meters will phase anything from 208 volts to 50kV. If you need to go higher than 50kV add extension resistors and you got it.


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## JoeHVD

PD800W from bierermeters.com, the best there is!!!


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## Chris Kennedy

Call me kookie, but why not check the secondaries of the LV transformer/s it serves?


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## powerlineman78

If you know what phase is what abc bca and cab are all clock wise rotation.


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## JoeHVD

Chris Kennedy said:


> Call me kookie, but why not check the secondaries of the LV transformer/s it serves?


You can. You can check the low voltage side (anything 120/208V and above) all the way to 765kV. What I am saying is you dont have to waste your time going to a low voltage side.


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## JoeHVD

powerlineman78 said:


> If you know what phase is what abc bca and cab are all clock wise rotation.


"Rotation" is a bad word anyway, "sequence" is better, it keeps people from arguing. If your in the field and nothing is labled a,b or c, the meter (PD800W) will tell you your sequence with LED's plus how many degrees of separation (LCD).


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