# Lined up beautifully or lit up beautifully?



## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

Most electricans are a lot more particular about how well lighting is lined up along the ceiling. There's a 2x4 fixture every 10 feet this way and 6 feet that way, etc etc etc.

Me? I'm not so particular. For instance I just finished a little shop, and instead of having them lined up so sweet, I adjusted a few to actually help the people working below them.

Now it seems that the end customer, when I point it out to them, they didn't notice in the first place, and they prefer my lighting location instead of directly above their press (leaving where the worker will actually be working in a shadow of the press). Oh, the press was made in the USSR, it was cool.

Anyway, what is better, lined up or lit up?

Man I need to take more pictures.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Definitely need pics.  What the customer wants is the most important.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

Do it to specification, then point out how it could be better with specific task lighting, and rack up the $$ in change orders and additions.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

I simply remind people that you install lights so_ you can see_, not _to be seen_.

The function of lights is to place illumination where it is needed, not to be astheticly pleasing in it's layout when you look at them.


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## wirenut71 (Dec 5, 2010)

I agree. function over appearance.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

I just go with whatever lighting layout is appropriate. If it's a fresh install in a new or remodeled room then I lay lights out per spec (or customer preference) and do it nice and neat.

If it's someone wanting additional lights for task illumination then I go with what is most logical for illuminating that task.

If it's a complete s**thole and they want it brighter but don't care how it looks, then I just hang lights wherever convenient. No sense polishing turds. Which is possible, actually; I saw a Mythbusters where they did that.


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

480sparky said:


> I simply remind people that you install lights so_ you can see_, not _to be seen_.
> 
> The function of lights is to place illumination where it is needed, not to be astheticly pleasing in it's layout when you look at them.


 
I would disagree with this. I think both are important.

There is nothing worse that seeing a circle of highhats where one is spaced differently or out of line, an oval that isn't centered in the room, or a chandelier that isn't in the middle of the table or foyer.

Your eyes will pick that up everytime you look at.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Dnkldorf said:


> I would disagree with this. I think both are important.
> 
> There is nothing worse that seeing a circle of highhats where one is spaced differently or out of line, an oval that isn't centered in the room, or a chandelier that isn't in the middle of the table or foyer.
> 
> Your eyes will pick that up everytime you look at.


OK, so the lights are pretty to look at, but they fail miserably at providing illumination where it is needed?


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

480sparky said:


> OK, so the lights are pretty to look at, but they fail miserably at providing illumination where it is needed?


Depends, who did the lighting lay-out?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Dnkldorf said:


> Depends, who did the lighting lay-out?



What difference does it make? God, architect, EE, designer, lighting store, builder, HO or the flunkie apprentice on the job..... if you can't see, the lighting fails.


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

480sparky said:


> What difference does it make? God, architect, EE, designer, lighting store, builder, HO or the flunkie apprentice on the job..... if you can't see, the lighting fails.


As an electrician getting paid to put lights where an engineer spec'd them, I wouldn't care.

Pay me again to move them around or change them.:thumbsup:


If I spec'd them out and installed them, and the light didn't work as planned, either I have to eat the cost of whatever is involved to make it right, or high tail it out of there and hope for the best.

Same as if an engineer spec'd them out in a straight line, and I installed them crooked.

He asked what is better, and I said both are important to consider.


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

480sparky said:


> OK, so the lights are pretty to look at, but they fail miserably at providing illumination where it is needed?


 I M O, there is lighting for illumination.....and..... there is lighting for decoration. 

Main example.... chandeliers, _usually_ don't give good lighting.

They are installed to be decorative, or as status symbols.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

oldtimer said:


> I M O, there is lighting for illumination.....and..... there is lighting for decoration.
> 
> Main example.... chandeliers, _usually_ don't give good lighting.
> 
> They are installed to be decorative, or as status symbols.


True enough. I've worked on dining rooms where the high-$ ugly thing over the table is there because the designer is thinking of the photo shoot, not people actually _using_ the space. The cans around it light the table up. Sometimes it takes both (or more than 2) to accomplish the task.

Same principle for entryways. The 4-digit price-tag luminaire goes up where it can be seen from the street through the transom windows. The wall sconces do the dirty work of making the entry usable after dark.


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## bobbyho (Oct 15, 2007)

I think we can all agree that there is not one fixture that accomplishes all 4 tasks of lighting. Task, accent, ambient and decorative. The overall effect that I try to accomplish with light is illuminating the surface or object that is supposed to be seen. If I could make recess lights disappear, I would. You can minimize the glare if you remove those white step baffle trims. It is the glare you are seeing refracted off the trims usually, not the source. It is all "design" style. I like the quote from Bill Locklin "See the effect and not the source". That is how I try to do my lighting design but I suppose it's not for everyone. Leave it to the interior designers to pick out the style of the fixture. Just as long as they don't mess with my lamp choice:thumbsup:


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## egads (Sep 1, 2009)

I'm also in the lit up beautifully camp. Now if one is putting a bunch of recess lights in a living room for general lighting, then they should be lined up. But using those same cans in a kitchen (kind of mute now that they have to be fluorescent) I place them over the counters centered on cabinet openings. Even if that means they are not evenly spaced. I see far too many kitchens with a row of cans down the center so that you are creating a shadow standing at the counter. I always think: "Well the floors lit" 

It's interesting how these light trims all ended up being white. It's mostly because those are the cheapest ones. I like the effect black ones had. That used to be the standard. Oddly, the specular sliver or gold trims have the least glare. If you look across a room of specular trims, there is no glare. As far as I'm concerned the whole point of a recess lighting is for it not to show. I always try to use a pinhole trim over a bar for that reason. My first choice for art lighting is a slot trim. The pull down directional ones are great for solving a problems (like you placed them to close or too far from the wall) but I see whole houses with them sticking down all over the place. All trims should be painted the same color as the ceiling unless the ceiling is white, again so you "see the effect and not the source" Great quote. It's too bad our lamp choices are going away.


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

Today we were replacing crappy T12 lights with these super-reflective and awesome 300w flourescent fixtures.

The customer only really needed 4 but we put up 6 because on paper it makes logical sense. But it's as bright as outside in there, and from where I stand as an environmentalist, reducing wattage is good, but I wanted to tell the customer he only needed 4 and it'd be great.

Really is a tough market to downsell, you know?


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