# CA Title 24, and baseboard heating Issues



## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

The building Dept is requiring literature on the baseboard heaters that they be title 24 compliant. This is a full, down to the studs, remodel and there were small forced air heaters in the walls originally. I am not sure what angle to take with this, there is no central HVAC system, as its an old Victorian house. So am I screwed with trying to install BB heat in this house, or is there a way around this?

~Matt


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## kbsparky (Sep 20, 2007)

I thought title 24 only applied to lights? You can't do much to reduce energy consumption with resistance heating, except for other factors, such as insulation, etc.

Maybe you can provide documentation that BB heating units are exempt from 24?


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## ohmega (Apr 19, 2010)

Ahhh the joys of Title 24. PITA

They are kinda tackey but have you seen those wall mount eco heaters. they only run at like 400w 120v. and I believe are fairly inexpensive. They do get toastly too. just a thought. Cheers.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Matt.,

Seems that you are in mild weather area I don't think you will run into major issue with Baseboard heaters but the title 24 kinda throw moi in the loop.

But for your mild weather situation the heating requirment is not super strict like northen flats or other cold area and with standard insulating you can use about 10 watts per sq foot however you can knock them down a bit if well insulated.

To get excat info check with the baseboard heater manufacter they may know the latest info related to this part.

Merci.
Marc


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

ohmega said:


> Ahhh the joys of Title 24. PITA
> 
> They are kinda tackey but have you seen those wall mount eco heaters. they only run at like 400w 120v. and I believe are fairly inexpensive. They do get toastly too. just a thought. Cheers.


California, hopefully our forum members will relocate before that hell hole of misguided ideas finally falls in the ocean.

There are some liquid source base boards that are "GREEN?"

Check with your supply house, our supplier has specialist for all types of electric heat


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Now hang on a second. Resistance heating is 100% efficient. That includes baseboard heaters. What more do they want? Perpetual motion, over-unity baseboard heaters? Bunch of nuts.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> Now hang on a second. Resistance heating is 100% efficient. That includes baseboard heaters. What more do they want? Perpetual motion, over-unity baseboard heaters? Bunch of nuts.


I would say hamster wheel power but then they would be bitching about animal cruelty and PETA would be on my lawn. :laughing:


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## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

How about radiant floor heat? Maybe you could get away with less wattage for the same square footage and still have the occupants be warm.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

I have a few issues here. 400W of heat isn't going to do anything for this house. The house is 4600 SqFt. The main area needs over 10KW of heat, which I wasnt going to achieve, but the customer said to only put in 2 heaters in that area. The bedrooms for the most part are calculated out and will work fine.

As far as efficiency, if I have a 1750W heater, doesn't it use 1750 watts, and produce 1750 watts of heat? Thats completely efficient, nothing wasted.

I havent directly dealt with the building dept, the customer has, as he is the one pulling the permit. 

Title 24 is BS anyway - I should be able to waste as much electricity as I want, especially if Im paying for it.

~Matt


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## rexowner (Apr 12, 2008)

Asking for T24 compliance on Electrical Resistance heat is stupid. Either
the inspector is a moron, or f*ing with somebody. As has been pointed
out, it's 100% efficient at point-of-use.

Without commenting on the wisdom, here is what T24, 2008 says:
(Exceptions 3, 4 or 5 could be your answer.)
(g) Electric Resistance Heating. Electric resistance heating systems shall not be used for space heating.
EXCEPTION 1 to Section 144(g): Where an electric-resistance heating system supplements a heating system in which at least 60 percent of the annual energy requirement is supplied by site-solar or recovered energy.
EXCEPTION 2 to Section 144(g): Where an electric-resistance heating system supplements a heat pump heating system, and the heating capacity of the heat pump is more than 75 percent of the design heating load calculated in accordance with Section 144(a) at the design outdoor temperature specified in Section 144(b)4.
EXCEPTION 3 to Section 144(g): Where the total capacity of all electric-resistance heating systems serving the entire building is less than 10 percent of the total design output capacity of all heating equipment serving the entire building.
EXCEPTION 4 to Section 144(g): Where the total capacity of all electric-resistance heating systems serving the entire building, excluding those allowed under Exception 2, is no more than 3 kW.
EXCEPTION 5 to Section 144(g): Where an electric resistance heating system serves an entire building that is not a high-rise residential or hotel/motel building; and has a conditioned floor area no greater than 5,000 square feet; and has no mechanical cooling; and is in an area where natural gas is not currently available and an extension of a natural gas system is impractical, as determined by the natural gas utility.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Seems like title 24 pretty much prohibits electric baseboard as the primary source of heating.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

rexowner said:


> Asking for T24 compliance on Electrical Resistance heat is stupid. Either
> the inspector is a moron, or f*ing with somebody. As has been pointed
> out, it's 100% efficient at point-of-use.
> 
> ...


I almost can fly by with exception 5 - But he just got gas brought to the premise by PG&E- it only cost him 10 grand, and all they did was tap off the neighbors lateral. He only wants to use gas for the dryer, WH and cooktop though. He didnt want to spend all the money for a heat pump or the like, because he isnt going to really need it that often.

I think this might be bad news for the Homeowner as of now.

~Matt


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Heck, if he's getting A/C anyhow, tell him to get a heat pump. No sweat. Just a tiny bit more in cost.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> Heck, if he's getting A/C anyhow, tell him to get a heat pump. No sweat. Just a tiny bit more in cost.


No A/C. It really isnt needed in this city. He only wanted BB heat so that he could heat the room he is in, IF he even desired to turn the heat on, as he is moving from a city that is much cooler year round and just used to a cold climate. 

~Matt


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## rexowner (Apr 12, 2008)

Don't know where this would be installed, but last time we installed a bb heater in San Jose, the city was unsympathetic and we had to remove it.

I think it comes down to the official, whoever is asking for T24 docs sounds like a douche. Unless someone with really good people skills can talk them out of it, sounds like the HO is screwed, esp with the new gas permit.

CEC is really solving the problem.... It is likely the neighbor has a 50+ year old house with no insulation. But if they can make those who follow the rules suffer, the pols can say they accomplished something.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

rexowner said:


> Don't know where this would be installed, but last time we installed a bb heater in San Jose, the city was unsympathetic and we had to remove it.
> 
> I think it comes down to the official, whoever is asking for T24 docs sounds like a douche. Unless someone with really good people skills can talk them out of it, sounds like the HO is screwed, esp with the new gas permit.
> 
> CEC is really solving the problem.... It is likely the neighbor has a 50+ year old house with no insulation. But if they can make those who follow the rules suffer, the pols can say they accomplished something.


Yeah, I sent the HO an email explaining this issues at hand. This is in vallejo, in the historic district. If he pulled the gas permit after this, maybe it could have been different. He is going to have to plead with the building dept and see where that gets him.

~Matt


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

As I said dump a state that has wonderful cities, beautiful countryside, a truly wonderful place in the ocean. Because CA's have screwed the pooch beyond usability.

Just stupid beyond compare.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

brian john said:


> As I said dump a state that has wonderful cities, beautiful countryside, a truly wonderful place in the ocean. Because CA's have screwed the pooch beyond usability.
> 
> Just stupid beyond compare.


I agree completely, bit im not moving any time soon. Theres actually not much reason to live here any more. Its getting infested with a certain race that likes to deal drugs and kill people. 

~Matt


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## SparkYZ (Jan 20, 2010)

TOOL_5150 said:


> I agree completely, bit im not moving any time soon. Theres actually not much reason to live here any more. Its getting infested with a certain race that likes to deal drugs and kill people.
> 
> ~Matt


It's not getting infested, it is infested


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Wow.,, Now I can see why someone try to delete complety with electric heating system sound like greenheads dolts try to scare alot of peoples out.

Merci,
Marc


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## monitormix (Aug 23, 2008)

TOOL_5150 said:


> I agree completely, bit im not moving any time soon. Theres actually not much reason to live here any more. Its getting infested with a certain race that likes to deal drugs and kill people.
> 
> ~Matt


So you're in Oakland, huh? Kind of sounds like someone is F****ng with him at the building dept. Or looking for some easy money. It is Vallejo after all, they are a bankrupt city-literally.:blink:


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

monitormix said:


> So you're in Oakland, huh? Kind of sounds like someone is F****ng with him at the building dept. Or looking for some easy money. It is Vallejo after all, they are a bankrupt city-literally.:blink:


No, im in new richmond, aka antioch. I dont know what hes going to do about this yet. Probably going to have to plead mercy.

~Matt


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## monitormix (Aug 23, 2008)

Yeah, Antioch is quickly going the was of Richmond no doubt. I was out there a couple of months ago at the USS Posco plant. It's getting rough.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

monitormix said:


> Yeah, Antioch is quickly going the was of Richmond no doubt. I was out there a couple of months ago at the USS Posco plant. It's getting rough.


Yeah. Quite a few years ago I took some classes there to get fiber certified by the FOA. It was a questionable place at night then.. the general area now.. no way id be outside there at night.

~Matt


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## sparkypig (Oct 1, 2010)

baseboard heaters aren't a stipulation in title 24. read title 24.


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