# Running SER through studs



## electricalperson (Jan 11, 2008)

i would just run the cable up high over the face of the joists and studs drilling all those out is too much work and too much wood to take out of studs


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## sarness (Sep 14, 2010)

You would take out too much structure drilling out a 2x4.

If I recall correctly, cable assemblies with #8 and larger conductors are allowed to be secured to the bottom of joists.


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## farlsincharge (Dec 31, 2010)

I would pop outside at the panel and go underground, but I'm crazy like that.


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## Wyremonkey (Apr 15, 2011)

Is it possible to pipe it in? As a Canadian I've never used that cable.


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## Zparme (Nov 11, 2010)

I thought about running it in conduit, but SER cable is super cheap.

334.15 (C) states you can run nm cable that is 8/3 or larger on the bottom of joists. I'm wondering if I can run the cable perpendicular to the wall studs at a height that would protect it from any physical damage. That way I don't have to cut into the ceiling, and I won't have to drill holes in the studs either.


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## electricalperson (Jan 11, 2008)

Zparme said:


> I thought about running it in conduit, but SER cable is super cheap.
> 
> 334.15 (C) states you can run nm cable that is 8/3 or larger on the bottom of joists. I'm wondering if I can run the cable perpendicular to the wall studs at a height that would protect it from any physical damage. That way I don't have to cut into the ceiling, and I won't have to drill holes in the studs either.


yes you can


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

SE? What no Rob Roy? I hear that SE will randomly burst into flames.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

electricalperson said:


> yes you can



Can you?

Where is that permission?


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## CraigV (May 12, 2011)

Zparme said:


> I thought about running it in conduit, but SER cable is super cheap.
> 
> 334.15 (C) states you can run nm cable that is 8/3 or larger on the bottom of joists. I'm wondering if I can run the cable perpendicular to the wall studs at a height that would protect it from any physical damage. That way I don't have to cut into the ceiling, and I won't have to drill holes in the studs either.





electricalperson said:


> yes you can


334.15 (C) states "In Unfinished Basements". so this doesn't apply to garages. Also, joists are not studs, and studs are not joists, so "directly to the lower edges of joists" does not apply either.

It's arguable that a garage would subject the cable to physical damage. 

I agree that drilling the studs is absolutely unacceptable. The required hole would be much larger than building code will accept.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

I would be thinking a running board .............


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## CraigV (May 12, 2011)

By the time you pay for the wood, you may as well use conduit as the protection, which would also look more professional. 

There's also 334.15 (B) which states that "_cable shall be protected from physical damage where necessary by rigid metal conduit, intermediatemetal conduit, electrical metal tubing, Schedule 80 PVC rigid nonmetallic conduit, or other approved means_." Nothing there about using wood running boards or channeling.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

CraigV said:


> By the time you pay for the wood, you may as well use conduit as the protection, which would also look more professional.


SE and strapping will be cheaper than pipe and wire, I would have no problem with how it looks.


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## tkb (Jan 21, 2009)

Zparme said:


> I have a job where someone wants an outdoor sub panel. Their main is on one of the side walls of the garage. The garage has open studs all the way around, except the ceiling of the garage has drywall. I need to run 2 gauge SER cable to the sub. How would you run this cable? Drill through all of the studs? It's only about 30 feet, but I'm not sure I'd wanna drill those size holes big enough for the ser cable through a bunch of 2x4's. Would you cut up the ceiling and run along the joists (they're going the wrong direction of course). Or, is it legal to run the cable on top of the studs at a height where they would be protected from physical damage? Perhaps on running boards? Or is that only legal to do on joists?


Is this aluminum SER?
What size breaker are you going to feed this subpanel with?


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

#2 ser will fit in a 1 & 1/4" hole. Selfeed bit will get it done in seconds. I would drill all the way so they could finish the garage


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## Zparme (Nov 11, 2010)

tkb said:


> Is this aluminum SER?
> What size breaker are you going to feed this subpanel with?


Yes it's aluminum. It's for a 60 amp spa panel.


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## tkb (Jan 21, 2009)

Zparme said:


> Yes it's aluminum. It's for a 60 amp spa panel.


You could use #4 AL SER and a 60 amp breaker.


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## Zparme (Nov 11, 2010)

tkb said:


> You could use #4 AL SER and a 60 amp breaker.



I believe you have to use the 60 degree column, and #4 aluminum is only rated for 55 amps.


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

Zparme said:


> I believe you have to use the 60 degree column, and #4 aluminum is only rated for 55 amps.


Under the 2011 Code it can be installed for the 75C Column for 65amps. if all terminations are also rated for 75C.


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## tkb (Jan 21, 2009)

Zparme said:


> I believe you have to use the 60 degree column, and #4 aluminum is only rated for 55 amps.


You are correct, but you can use the next size standard circuit breaker which is 60 amps per 240.4(B).


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## tkb (Jan 21, 2009)

Roger123 said:


> Under the 2011 Code it can be installed for the 75C Column for 65amps. if all terminations are also rated for 75C.


It still needs to be 60ºc in insulation as per 338.10(B)(4)(a).


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

mcclary's electrical said:


> #2 ser will fit in a 1 & 1/4" hole. Selfeed bit will get it done in seconds. I would drill all the way so they could finish the garage


Do you have the chart for the allowable hole sizes for 2x4's? It was posted one time and I forget to copy it.


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

tkb said:


> It still needs to be 60ºc in insulation as per 338.10(B)(4)(a).


True, but the new code does give us some more room to run it at higher temperatures.


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## tkb (Jan 21, 2009)

Roger123 said:


> True, but the new code does give us some more room to run it at higher temperatures.


I am not sure what you are refering to.


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## electricalperson (Jan 11, 2008)

BBQ said:


> Can you?
> 
> Where is that permission?


:thumbsup:


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## Zparme (Nov 11, 2010)

tkb said:


> You are correct, but you can use the next size standard circuit breaker which is 60 amps per 240.4(B).


I just thought of something. If the spa specifies that it needs a 60 amp breaker, wouldn't I have to use a wire that is rated for 60 amps? I understand upsizing over current protection, but I'm concerned about the proper wire gauge can handle 60 amps. Not breaker size.


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## tkb (Jan 21, 2009)

Zparme said:


> I just thought of something. If the spa specifies that it needs a 60 amp breaker, wouldn't I have to use a wire that is rated for 60 amps? I understand upsizing over current protection, but I'm concerned about the proper wire gauge can handle 60 amps. Not breaker size.


Not always. On HVAC equipment they specify the breaker size and the current the wire has to be good for.

What other specs do you have on this spa other than the breaker size?
If it is a spa, can you use SER or does it need an insulated equipment ground wire?


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## uber stein (Aug 20, 2010)

Just curious, why SER? why not #6 which is good for 60 amps. If there is attic access it wont be a problem running it or as mentioned earlier, pipe it from the outside panel.


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

tkb said:


> I am not sure what you are refering to.


338.10(B)(4)(a) Interior Installations, under the 2008 Code for interior installations running Type SE Cable one must follow 334.80 which limited the cable to 60C, like NM, under the 2011 Code that section, 334.80 is excluded.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

We did this a few years ago in Jersey City.


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

Magnettica said:


> We did this a few years ago in Jersey City.


Wow, you really ran that copper pipe straight and level!!! Good Job!!


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

Zparme said:


> I believe you have to use the 60 degree column, and #4 aluminum is only rated for 55 amps.



2008 NEC use this chart:

Table 310.15(B)(6) Conductor Types and Sizes for
120/240-Volt, 3-Wire, Single-Phase Dwelling Services and
Feeders. Conductor Types RHH, RHW, RHW-2, THHN,
THHW, THW, THW-2, THWN, THWN-2, XHHW,
XHHW-2, SE, USE, USE-2
Conductor (AWG or kcmil)
Service or Feeder
Rating (Amperes) Copper
Aluminum or
Copper-Clad
Aluminum


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

#2 Aluminum is good for 100 amps for a resi feeder or service....so if I were you I would use a 100 amp breaker to feed your sub with....no harm in that....:thumbsup:


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## Zparme (Nov 11, 2010)

tkb said:


> Not always. On HVAC equipment they specify the breaker size and the current the wire has to be good for.
> 
> What other specs do you have on this spa other than the breaker size?
> If it is a spa, can you use SER or does it need an insulated equipment ground wire?


I don't have the specs in front of me. I plan on running SER to the spa panel which has space for 4 circuits. Then I'll run thwn in conduit with an insulated ground to the spa. 



Magnettica said:


> We did this a few years ago in Jersey City.


What size SER is that?


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## AWKrueger (Aug 4, 2008)

Whats the difference between SE and SER? Is the R uv resistant? I googled it and couldn't find a clear answer.


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## stars13bars2 (Jun 1, 2009)

The R is round.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> #2 ser will fit in a 1 & 1/4" hole. Selfeed bit will get it done in seconds. I would drill all the way so they could finish the garage


I agree. No problem at all with putting an 1 1/4" hole in a 2x4. Unless local codes are different then the IRC.


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## tkb (Jan 21, 2009)

steelersman said:


> #2 Aluminum is good for 100 amps for a resi feeder or service....so if I were you I would use a 100 amp breaker to feed your sub with....no harm in that....:thumbsup:


Only for the main service or feeder and not a sub panel.
See 310.15(B)(7) read the text that goes with the table. This table was 310.15(B)(6) in 2008



> 3-wire, single-phase service-entrance conductors, servicelateral conductors, and feeder conductors that serve as the main power feeder to each dwelling unit and are installed in raceway or cable with or without an equipment grounding conductor. For application of this section, the main power feeder shall be the feeder between the main disconnect and the panelboard that supplies, either by branch circuits or by feeders, or both, *all loads that are part or associated with the **dwelling unit.* The feeder conductors to a dwelling unit shall not be required to have an allowable ampacity rating greater than their service-entrance conductors. The grounded conductor shall be permitted to be smaller than the ungrounded conductors, provided the requirements of 215.2, 220.61, and 230.42 are met.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

steelersman said:


> 2008 NEC use this chart:
> 
> Table 310.15(B)(6) Conductor Types and Sizes for
> 120/240-Volt, 3-Wire, Single-Phase Dwelling Services and
> ...


The are very few times when that table can be used for a sub panel feeder size.

To use that table the feeder MUST carry 100% of the dwelling units load.


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

tkb said:


> Only for the main service or feeder and not a sub panel.
> See 310.15(B)(7) read the text that goes with the table. This table was 310.15(B)(6) in 2008


The wire "feeding" the sub-panel is a "feeder".......


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

BBQ said:


> The are very few times when that table can be used for a sub panel feeder size.
> 
> To use that table the feeder MUST carry 100% of the dwelling units load.


I didn't know that. Where does it say that? I have passed a couple of inspections using #2 Aluminum on 100 amp breakers feeding sub-panels.


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

BBQ said:


> To use that table the feeder MUST carry 100% of the dwelling units load.


Ok thanks for pointing that out. I found where it says that.


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## ChrisK (Jun 11, 2011)

farlsincharge said:


> I would pop outside at the panel and go underground, but I'm crazy like that.


SER/SEU can't be run underground, it is only listed for aboveground use


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## ChrisK (Jun 11, 2011)

Magnettica said:


> We did this a few years ago in Jersey City.


great work


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## CraigV (May 12, 2011)

BBQ said:


> SE and strapping will be cheaper than pipe and wire, I would have no problem with how it looks.


Where is strapping listed as an acceptable means of protection on wall studs? I only see various conduit mentioned.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

#4 al ser will fit into 1" holes drilled with a forstener (sp) bit . Drill em in a nice straight line to make it easier to pull it thru. Wire lube is also your friend, its not just for conduit pulls. I do this operation constantly, its all fine. Don't forget your nail plates.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

CraigV said:


> Where is strapping listed as an acceptable means of protection on wall studs? I only see various conduit mentioned.


:laughing:

Strapping, as in 'wood strapping' to make a running board to staple the wire too. 

You can run SE on the surface if it is run on a 'running board'.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

BBQ said:


> The are very few times when that table can be used for a sub panel feeder size.
> 
> To use that table the feeder MUST carry 100% of the dwelling units load.





steelersman said:


> I didn't know that. Where does it say that? I have passed a couple of inspections using #2 Aluminum on 100 amp breakers feeding sub-panels.





steelersman said:


> Ok thanks for pointing that out. I found where it says that.


Actually that has always been the rule, but almost all areas had not been enforcing that. So they changed the wording to make it clear.

The idea is to maintain load diversity on the feeder.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

BBQ said:


> :laughing:
> 
> Strapping, as in 'wood strapping' to make a running board to staple the wire too.
> 
> You can run SE on the surface if it is run on a 'running board'.


Calling it "strapping" is definitely New England terminology.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

BBQ said:


> The idea is to maintain load diversity on the feeder.


So if one finds a non compliant feeder do we need to send it to diversity training?


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Jlarson said:


> So if one finds a non compliant feeder do we need to send it to diversity training?


Well in the case of ser cable its a gray area, so I say perhaps not.....


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

BBQ said:


> The idea is to maintain load diversity on the feeder.





Jlarson said:


> So if one finds a non compliant feeder do we need to send it to diversity training?





macmikeman said:


> Well in the case of ser cable its a gray area, so I say perhaps not.....


Groan ....... inch:inch: :laughing:


Have you guys already started celebrating the Forth? :thumbsup:


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Groan ....... inch:inch: :laughing:
> 
> 
> Have you guys already started celebrating the Forth? :thumbsup:


If celebrating the 4th includes being overheated, and dehydrated while ripping an AC unit apart then sure.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

macmikeman said:


> Well in the case of ser cable its a gray area, so I say perhaps not.....


When are manufacturers going to start offering SE cable in designer colors, like romex?


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> If celebrating the 4th includes being overheated, and dehydrated while ripping an AC unit apart then sure.


I was overheated this morning but in 30 more minutes the work day is done and the drinking begins.:jester:


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

BBQ said:


> I was overheated this morning but in 30 more minutes the work day is done and the drinking begins.:jester:


Jeez, its only 6:30 am, are you a chonic?


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

macmikeman said:


> Jeez, its only 6:30 am, are you a chonic?



Chronic something ....... :laughing:

Have a great weekend and Fourth of July Mike. 'Hang ten' or whatever you surfer guys do. :jester:


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## CraigV (May 12, 2011)

BBQ said:


> :laughing:
> 
> Strapping, as in 'wood strapping' to make a running board to staple the wire too.
> 
> You can run SE on the surface if it is run on a 'running board'.


Article # ? I've never seen any mention of this for Installation methods in 338 or 336.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

CraigV said:


> Article # ? I've never seen any mention of this for Installation methods in 338 or 336.


Here ya go. 




> 334.15 Exposed Work. In exposed work, except as provided
> in 300.11(A), cable shall be installed as specified in
> 334.15(A) through (C).
> 
> ...


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

ChrisK said:


> great work


Thank you. We took a 4' level and marked the studs 4 times for each of the feeders then used a whole saw to make the holes. Obviously the wall was non-load bearing.

Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> Thank you. We took a 4' level and marked the studs 4 times for each of the feeders then used a whole saw to make the holes. Obviously the wall was non-load bearing.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


Please tell me you didn't really use a "hole" not "whole" saw to make all those holes? That would be asanine....


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## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

steelersman said:


> Please tell me you didn't really use a "hole" not "whole" saw to make all those holes? That would be asanine....


Or even asinine perhaps. The resident spelling nazi really ought to know this.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

MF Dagger said:


> Or even asinine perhaps. The resident spelling nazi really ought to know this.


LOL pretty funny he would correct my spelling and misspell a word to convey his message.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

MF Dagger said:


> Or even asinine perhaps. The resident spelling nazi really ought to know this.


:laughing::thumbup::laughing:


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

MF Dagger said:


> Or even asinine perhaps. The resident spelling nazi really ought to know this.



Even I screw up sometimes......Hitler wasn't perfect was he?


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> LOL pretty funny he would correct my spelling and misspell a word to convey his message.


What's even funnier is that you don't know what a hole saw is....and if you do and actually used one to drill a hole through wood then you really are a candidate for the caveman awards......:thumbsup:


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

steelersman said:


> What's even funnier is that you don't know what a hole saw is....and if you do and actually used one to drill a hole through wood then you really are a candidate for the caveman awards......:thumbsup:


Ugh , this here caveman has been successful at doing just exactly that for about 35 years or so now. Done all the time. Have you ever looked at the holes they make for the plumbing stuff in the kitchen sink? They don't use a ship auger most of the time....


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

macmikeman said:


> Ugh , this here caveman has been successful at doing just exactly that for about 35 years or so now. Done all the time. Have you ever looked at the holes they make for the plumbing stuff in the kitchen sink? They don't use a ship auger most of the time....


I usually see them using these.....


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

steelersman said:


> What's even funnier is that you don't know what a hole saw is....and if you do and actually used one to drill a hole through wood then you really are a candidate for the caveman awards......:thumbsup:


You were looking for an outlet to charge your cordless batteries and I was at the bank depositing another check. :thumbup:


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> You were looking for an outlet to charge your cordless batteries and I was at the bank depositing another check. :thumbup:


How do you figure?


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Zparme said:


> I don't have the specs in front of me. I plan on running SER to the spa panel which has space for 4 circuits. Then I'll run thwn in conduit with an insulated ground to the spa.
> 
> 
> What size SER is that?


Whatever 'true' 100 amp is for SE. I really don't use it much and when I do I ask for "the 100 amp stuff." :whistling2:


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## tkb (Jan 21, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> Whatever 'true' 100 amp is for SE. I really don't use it much and when I do I ask for "the 100 amp stuff." :whistling2:


And if you are using it for a subpanel, you will probably get the wrong cable from your supplier.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> Whatever 'true' 100 amp is for SE. I really don't use it much and when I do I ask for "the 100 amp stuff." :whistling2:


So you let a counter guy size your wire? Jeezzz


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

tkb said:


> And if you are using it for a subpanel, you will probably get the wrong cable from your supplier.


Do we get to see your work some time?

Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


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## tkb (Jan 21, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> Do we get to see your work some time?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


You don't have a high enough security clearance to see my work.


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## sarness (Sep 14, 2010)

I probably still do, did some work for the DOE.


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## tkb (Jan 21, 2009)

sarness said:


> I probably still do, did some work for the DOE.





Magnettica said:


> Do we get to see your work some time?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


How many login names are you using?


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## sarness (Sep 14, 2010)

Me? Only one, ask a mod to check ip's, due to the nature of my work, mine is static.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

tkb said:


> How many login names are you using?


Uh... one.


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