# Fastening to composite siding



## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

I’ve got this job to add a couple receptacles to a single family home, I’ll be running SCH80 on the outside of the house. the house has this composite side it material. I don’t know what it’s called but I do know that it won’t hold a screw from previous experience. I was thinking of using plastic masonry anchors to connect the straps to the house. Any ideas?


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

I'd suggest you attach to framing.
Siding should never be used for carrying a load.


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

MikeFL said:


> I'd suggest you attach to framing.
> Siding should never be used for carrying a load.



Agreed, but there really is now way to figure out where the framing is without removing the siding. Perhaps I connect to the plate line through the siding? 


Or, if there is stucco under the siding, attach to the stucco?


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## canbug (Dec 31, 2015)

If there is stucco, there will be wood behind to attach to. Pre drill a small hole to put in a longer screw as a test to see if there is something back there you can use.


Tim.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MikeFL said:


> I'd suggest you attach to framing.
> *Siding* should never be used for carrying a load.


If the only thing on the studs is this siding, then it's not just siding, it's sheathing too. I would have no problem attaching to that. 

Finding the studs will be a pain and there will end up being plenty of times in which a stud is not where it should be, which means holes to fix.

I would use toggle bolts thru this sheathing. I've done it in situations in which the sheathing was garbage particle board that wouldn't hold a screw. I use metal 1 hole straps with a stainless washer underneath to cover the 5/8" hole int he sheathing for the 1/4-20 toggle to go thru. You can make these setups up in the shop if you will need a lot of them.


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

HackWork said:


> If the only thing on the studs is this siding, then it's not just siding, it's sheathing too. I would have no problem attaching to that.
> 
> Finding the studs will be a pain and there will end up being plenty of times in which a stud is not where it should be, which means holes to fix.
> 
> I would use toggle bolts thru this sheathing. I've done it in situations in which the sheathing was garbage particle board that wouldn't hold a screw. I use metal 1 hole straps with a stainless washer underneath to cover the 5/8" hole int he sheathing for the 1/4-20 toggle to go thru. You can make these setups up in the shop if you will need a lot of them.




No. It’s only about a 45-50 feet 1/2” SCH80 run. So I only need about 5-6 straps. I like the washer idea to cover the hole. Obviously, gobs of RTV as well?

EDIT:

Forgot, I strap PVC every 3-4 feet for sagging so 12 or so, easy peasy.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

five.five-six said:


> No. It’s only about a 45-50 feet 1/2” SCH80 run. So I only need about 5-6 straps. I like the washer idea to cover the hole. Obviously, gobs of RTV as well?
> 
> EDIT:
> 
> Forgot, I strap PVC every 3-4 feet for sagging so 12 or so, easy peasy.


Yes, your edit is correct, you need to support PVC very well. An expansion fitting is also necessary for that length. Even with doing both of those things it will still sag, that is why I always use EMT for longer horizontal runs.


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

The word composite is vague. Can you elaborate? Maybe a picture?

You know jacks & kings are at every window. Double studs ea side of every door. You may not get all your straps to land on studs but you should easily be able to get some of them to.


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

HackWork said:


> Yes, your edit is correct, you need to support PVC very well. An expansion fitting is also necessary for that length. Even with doing both of those things it will still sag, that is why I always use EMT for longer horizontal runs.



Yea, but down just above ground level, EMT is going to rust, especially if a sprinkler hits it. I’ll take sags over rust. 


And no, I’m not running it in OCAL.


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

MikeFL said:


> The word composite is vague. Can you elaborate? Maybe a picture?
> 
> You know jacks & kings are at every window. Double studs ea side of every door. You may not get all your straps to land on studs but you should easily be able to get some of them to.



I don’t know what it is, it’s concrete-ish with looks like fiberglass embedded in it. 


There are a couple windows so perhaps I’ll attach to the framing where I know I can and use hack’s hack for sagging between. 



Hack’s hack... I crack myself up LOL


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

When you said composite, I thought you meant plastic like composite deck material.

If it's some type of reenforced concrete, then plastic anchors might work just fine. Give it a try. 

If you hit a stud, even better. 

The nice thing about toggles is that you can use them at any time, even if you already tried a different anchor and it failed, or if you planned to hit a stud and missed. Just drill the hole bigger and use the toggle.


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

I keep a box of 1/4” toggles on my truck for 4’ and 8’ wraps mostly.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

five.five-six said:


> I keep a box of 1/4” toggles on my truck for 4’ and 8’ wraps mostly.


I keep 2 in my service tray that I find myself randomly needing all the time. 

Just the other day I was switching out smoke detectors and one of them was on a wiremold box that ended up failing down because it was only screwed into the drywall by a hack. I removed the center KO in the back, drilled thru the KO and drywall, and ran a toggle with fender washer straight thru it. Done in 2 minutes.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

five.five-six said:


> I don’t know what it is, it’s concrete-ish with looks like fiberglass embedded in it.
> 
> 
> There are a couple windows so perhaps I’ll attach to the framing where I know I can and use hack’s hack for sagging between.
> ...


I know what you’re talking about. It’s a soft material that doesn’t hold a screw. I’m thinking it was used somewhere around the 50’s (if we’re talking about the same stuff).


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

Sounds like what we call Hardy Plank. Cement boards with fibermesh in them. Similar to backer board for ceramic tile.

https://www.jameshardie.com/products/hardieplank-lap-siding


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

99cents said:


> I know what you’re talking about. It’s a soft material that doesn’t hold a screw. I’m thinking it was used somewhere around the 50’s (if we’re talking about the same stuff).


I think it’s the stuff @MikeFL linked. I’ve seen it on several new custom homes in The last few years and it seems like a good residential exterior. It seems like you could screw into it but the threads just make it crumble and it won’t even hold at all


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

99cents said:


> I know what you’re talking about. It’s a soft material that doesn’t hold a screw. I’m thinking it was used somewhere around the 50’s (if we’re talking about the same stuff).


Asbestos siding. Drill holes in it then use wood screws to hit the wood behind it. I've never seen hardy board, but, may be somewhat similar.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

five.five-six said:


> I think it’s the stuff @MikeFL linked. I’ve seen it on several new custom homes in The last few years and it seems like a good residential exterior. It seems like you could screw into it but the threads just make it crumble and it won’t even hold at all


Okay, actually I was thinking of the sheathing underneath but, at this point, you don’t know what’s underneath.

I think you need a test hole. Maybe there’s plywood underneath. If there’s siding plus stucco plus plywood, maybe use a small masonry bit with your drill on hammer to break the stucco. Sometimes I use a #12 sheet metal screw because the threads go the entire length of the screw.


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

Tapcon?

Just go easy on the torque.


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## NoBot (Oct 12, 2019)

I just emailed JamesHardie Company and asked your question. We'll see what they say. It's Friday afternoon so I may not get an answer until next week.
I'm interested in the answer. I'm starting to see a lot of homes with that siding.


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

Looking at this video it appears you need to look for nails & use a stud finder...https://www.google.com/search?clien...d+installed#kpvalbx=_fv7zXfX6EMHYsQXYkom4Cw34
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=491&v=vNz6MekFesg&feature=emb_logo


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Fiber Cement Siding - 

https://www.homedepot.com/b/Building-Materials-Siding-Fiber-Cement-Siding/N-5yc1vZc8af 

It's non-combustible so I imagine it's getting popular in California. 

There should be sheathing underneath. The OSB would in my opinion be strong enough to support 1/2" or 3/4" PVC with two hole straps every four feet. Just use a good outdoor rated coarse thread screw and do not overtorque them.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MikeFL said:


> Tapcon?
> 
> Just go easy on the torque.


If a normal screw is not grabbing, then a tapcon wouldn't either. 

I've pretty much stopped using tapcons altogether.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

splatz said:


> There should be sheathing underneath. The OSB would in my opinion be strong enough to support 1/2" or 3/4" PVC with two hole straps every four feet. Just use a good outdoor rated coarse thread screw and do not overtorque them.


Absolutely. If there is wood sheathing underneath, just screw it in with deck screws, just like if the house had vinyl siding.


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## Missouri Bound (Aug 30, 2009)

If the siding was installed correctly it is nailed to the wall studs. A cheap ($20) metal detector will find the nails which accomplished that. Some stud finders may be able to do that as well, others not so much.
But a metal detector will find a staple imbedded in 1" of wood easily.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Missouri Bound said:


> If the siding was installed correctly it is nailed to the wall studs. A cheap ($20) metal detector will find the nails which accomplished that. Some stud finders may be able to do that as well, others not so much.
> But a metal detector will find a staple imbedded in 1" of wood easily.


What type of $20 metal detector are you talking about? Do you have a link?


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## Missouri Bound (Aug 30, 2009)

HackWork said:


> What type of $20 metal detector are you talking about? Do you have a link?


Let me look. I have one I use mostly for woodworking to find nails in recycled wood.....I will post back when I find the source.


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## Missouri Bound (Aug 30, 2009)

I bought it at Rockler. It is the "little wizard" detector. Now it is about $25.
The one I have is adjustable for sensitivity. Works fine and is compact.
https://www.rockler.com/little-wizard-ii
I see they are available from Amazon as well.


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## Missouri Bound (Aug 30, 2009)

I can see one drawback though. If staples were used to install Tyvek it could easily find those as well giving you a field of beeps.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

That’s pretty cool. I’ve never seen anything like that before. I assume that would work well on interior walls finding studs by locating the screws. I usually use a magnet but that metal detector looks like it might work better.


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## Missouri Bound (Aug 30, 2009)

I have used it only for woodworking. It finds a staple broken off in a piece of wood that you can't see. The sensitivity is adjustable as I mentioned so you may be able to calibrate it to ignore smaller staples and find nailheads. Either way, once you find one stud you should be able to measure and space out the other ones. Maybe I will dig it out of the shop and give it a whirl tomorrow and post back.


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

You should be able to see the nails.


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## mofos be cray (Nov 14, 2016)

MikeFL said:


> You should be able to see the nails.


Not up here. They don't face nail hardie board because we dont get the winds you guys get.
Just about every new house around here is sided in hardie. There is sheathing but in new construction they've had to rain screen for the last 5 or so. This means there's ~a 3/8" air gap between thediding and the sheathing.


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## NoBot (Oct 12, 2019)

The manufacturer responded to my email. 
They said that sheathing is required under the Hardie Board and to use screws long enough to attach to it.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

NoBot said:


> The manufacturer responded to my email.
> They said that sheathing is required under the Hardie Board and to use screws long enough to attach to it.


Deck screws it is!


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

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NoBot said:


> The manufacturer responded to my email.
> They said that sheathing is required under the Hardie Board and to use screws long enough to attach to it.



Totally awesomeness. This is what it looks like when ET is running on all 8 cylinders 

TYVM


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

five.five-six said:


> ```
> 
> ```
> 
> ...


Four


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

I'd still hit a stud where you can.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

MikeFL said:


> I'd still hit a stud where you can.


Yeah, but he’s only holding up 1/2” pipe with a few conductors in it. If the screw grabs, good enough for me.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Every electrical meter and service riser is screwed into the sheathing and holds up fine, half-inch conduit is going to be fine.


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

HackWork said:


> __________________
> List of deadbeats who owe me money:
> 
> splatz - $3


:vs_laugh::vs_laugh::vs_laugh:


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

HackWork said:


> __________________
> List of deadbeats who owe me money:
> 
> splatz - $3


:vs_mad::vs_mad::vs_mad:


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## bostonPedro (Nov 14, 2017)

Secure into the wood sheathing under the siding with stainless steel screws and make sure to use screws that will not penetrate too deep into the interior wall cavity. 
ALSO 
Be careful driving in screws because there should be a void behind the cement siding to allow for breathing and you can easily go right threw or crack the siding if you overdrive screws. 
I have seen different methods used with cement fiber planking. There is supposed to be a void between the wood sheathing and the outer siding because it is cement and needs to breathe. I have seen vertical runners used to secure the cement siding which seems to be the cheap and older method versus the new method of using a "mesh" type screen about 1/2 thick over all of the sheathing to allow the building to breathe. 

It seems to be the siding of choice in my area with new construction because like vinyl siding it comes in colors but looks much better and doesn't need the vertical siding on interior or exterior corners to hide edges and never needs to be painted like wood so it is very low maintenance


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