# Why "Side Work" is a Bad Idea



## Amish Electrician

Having just seen a thread on this topic 'go south,' I still think it's a good idea to explain to eager youngsters whay doing little jobs on the side is a bad idea.

First off, can the cant that 'everyone does/did it.' Not true - and even if so, that doesn't make it right. Maybe your fellow apprentices drag race in the streets and smoke dope- does that give you the right to join them?

Now, for the side work itself .... two perspectives to consider: the contractor's and the customer's.

The contractor has plenty of expenses. Everything from the store of parts on the truck to paying various licenses - AND your apprenticeship. The contractor has the experience to know that jobs almost never are as straightforward as they seem. If you're charging less than a 'real' contractor, it's because there are expenses you're not paying. Either you're getting these things covered by someone else, or you're subsidizing the customer. 

Tell me ... who is better able to pay for these things? You- or the customer? Which of you has the nicer house and car?

Why does the customer want you? Because he associates you with a real contractor. It's only right that the real contractor get the job; you're representing him.

There's a reason the work 'customer' begins with the word 'cuss.' All these folks who are crying 'too expensive' are looking for a free ride, for someone else to subsidize them, some fool to listen to their whine. Heck, if you offered to do it for free, they'd ask you to pay them instead. The same folks who cry about $100 to add a receptacle will happily spend $1000 to get just the right marble for the countertop. 

They ask for sympathy, give them a dictionary and directions. Look right between shoot and syphylis, tell them- that's where you find sympathy. You deserve respect, and they're not giving you any ... just buttering you up with flattery.

I've seen far too many 'poor old ladies on fixed incomes' whose monthly income was triple mine. I've seen far too many folks living in mean circumstances who turned out to have plenty of cash. Fact is, there's no guarantee that only 'nice' folks grow to be 'old.'

Another problem is that many oldsters are locked into the pricing of their youth, and expect a new car to cost $1000. 

Finally, there are the simple crooks, those who deliberately seek out unlicensed guys- so as to mess with them. No need to pay if you're not licensed. Etc. These guys have the scam down to an art.

Oh, that's too much. Someone else said they'd do it for half. Etc. Sure they did. If "Joe" will do it for less, then let "Joe" do it. You're being played.

"I'll give you lots of work." Sure you will. Why should I lose money to you twice? More importantly, I have NEVER seen ANY future work from anyone who ever used that line .... even if I was already doing a job for them. Might as well end the relationship right there.


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## 480sparky

Amish Electrician said:


> ..........Finally, there are the simple crooks, those who deliberately seek out unlicensed guys- so as to mess with them. No need to pay if you're not licensed. Etc. These guys have the scam down to an art..


Technically, if there's any legal requirements to be a 'contractor' in your area and you don't meet those requirements, there's no legal requirement that a customer pay you for your work.... even if you've completed it to their satisfaction.

Even if you have a contract, signed by both parties, you will lose any legal attempt to collect. Take the customer to court? The court will simply deny your claim as the courts cannot rule on an illegal act. And operating without any of the required license, insurance, bonds, registration, etc. is an illegal act.

I love it when some cubby plays 'wanna-be business-owner' and gets burned by a savvy customer who knows the law.


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## wildleg

while I agree with most of the above, my perspective on it boils down to two things.

1) liability (burned down buildings have been known to put licensed and insured contractors out of business, if something goes wrong, even if it wasn't really your fault, we live in a sue-happy age. a few hundred years from now, this age will probably be known as the age of "dark sue-happy late industrialism".

2) in the end you are cutting your own throat. Even if you just want to work for someone else, cutting their throat is cutting your own. If you eventually want to be a contractor, doing this work is similar to buying stolen tools from the maggots who show up at jobs (if you buy someone else's stolen tools for pennies on the dollar, don't complain when your own go missing.) So when you are a contractor, don't complian that your guys or their buddies are stealing work from you, you did it to yourself.


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## knowshorts

wildleg said:


> So when you are a contractor, don't complian that your guys or their buddies are stealing work from you, you did it to yourself.


We were not complaining in the other thread like the OP thought. We were just trying to educate. Kind of like, look kid, learn from our mistakes. Same as a father teaching his son. But as a father, I think most of the information goes in one ear and out the other. Same with the OP on the other thread.


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## Lighting Retro

People who do good work will find a way to stay busy. To me, contractors that complain about a lack of work need to do some soul searching and look in the mirror. All of the top contractors I know, in spite of the economic conditions, or booked up weeks in advance. How can that be? I think we all know the answer. Let's not hide behind the real reasons ok?


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## Julius793

Ok I understand if the reason not to do side work is liability but some of the posts on both these threads seem to boil down to moral. "You can't do side work because it should go to the EC's cuz there licensed and insured and they have overhead". sry I just don't see that argument.


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## B4T

Guys will always do side work since there are people willing to hire someone "cheaper"..

I don't know anyone who is an EC today that didn't do side work at night or on the weekends to get a business off the ground while being a full time employee..

You can list all the negative reasons and it won't change a thing..


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## Cletis

*SWedes*

I"ve never done sidework


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## B4T

Cletis said:


> I"ve never done sidework


OK.. what is the punch line..


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## Cletis

*job*

i've never had a full time job to even side job


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## B4T

Cletis said:


> i've never had a full time job to even side job


How did you ever get your license if you have no documented time working as an electrician.. :blink::blink:


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## Cletis

*permits*

5yrs + of permits passed


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## EBFD6

Anyone who's target customers has them competing with side jobbers, needs to refine the customers they are targeting.


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## electricmanscott

There's always been side work, there will always be side work. Next topic.


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## Outdoorguy

480sparky said:


> Technically, if there's any legal requirements to be a 'contractor' in your area and you don't meet those requirements, there's no legal requirement that a customer pay you for your work.... even if you've completed it to their satisfaction.
> 
> Even if you have a contract, signed by both parties, you will lose any legal attempt to collect. Take the customer to court? The court will simply deny your claim as the courts cannot rule on an illegal act. And operating without any of the required license, insurance, bonds, registration, etc. is an illegal act.
> 
> I love it when some cubby plays 'wanna-be business-owner' and gets burned by a savvy customer who knows the law.


I just got done telling somebody this, today. I agree with this.


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## Bkessler

They is nothing wrong with side work, for friends and family at a low price or for free. A side unlicensed business is the dumbest thing ever.


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## Blackout

I street race, smoke dope, & I do awesome side work! $$$ :thumbsup:


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## brian john

B4T said:


> Guys will always do side work since there are people willing to hire someone "cheaper"..
> 
> I* don't know anyone who is an EC today that didn't do side work at night or on the weekends to get a business off the ground while being a full time employee..*
> 
> You can list all the negative reasons and it won't change a thing..


I never did. The side work I did and there were less than a handful were for relatives and one time a friend. Maybe 5 side jobs total.


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## Gaterhater

Bkessler said:


> They is nothing wrong with side work, for friends and family at a low price or for free. A side unlicensed business is the dumbest thing ever.


Nail on the head. I understand why ec's bitch so much about people doing side work. Hell, I am an ec. If guys wanna do side work, fine. Don't use my material, don't use my name, if you need a tool you better check with me first. Any of those rules broken, and I will find out, you're fired! If you start competing with me or taking work from me, you're fired! The crap my guys are doing are jobs I don't want. There's no money in it, for me anyways. Too much time and expenditures To even make it worth while! I'm sure most of you have had a hook up before! Got a buddy who's a mechanic? Aunt who's a seams trace? Brother who's a roofer? It's one thing if someone is running an under the table company. But doing a few odd jobs here and there for friends or even acquaintances? If that is killing yalls business than you have done something wrong not the jobber!


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## tufts46argled

Julius793 said:


> Ok I understand if the reason not to do side work is liability but some of the posts on both these threads seem to boil down to moral. "You can't do side work because it should go to the EC's cuz there licensed and insured and they have overhead". sry I just don't see that argument.


Get sued for side work gone bad and you'll see the argument!


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## 480sparky

Julius793 said:


> Ok I understand if the reason not to do side work is liability but some of the posts on both these threads seem to boil down to moral. "You can't do side work because it should go to the EC's cuz there licensed and insured and they have overhead". sry I just don't see that argument.



So, if obtaining a license and getting insurance is REQUIRED BY LAW, you still get that warm and fuzzy feeling about doing 'side work'?

Once again: If you do not comply with the laws in force in your area, what you are doing is *I L L E G A L*. Simple as that.


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## slickvic277

480sparky said:


> So, if obtaining a license and getting insurance is REQUIRED BY LAW, you still get that warm and fuzzy feeling about doing 'side work'?
> 
> Once again: If you do not comply with the laws in force in your area, what you are doing is *I L L E G A L*. Simple as that.


Stop jay-walking.


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## dronai

Lighting Retro said:


> People who do good work will find a way to stay busy. To me, contractors that complain about a lack of work need to do some soul searching and look in the mirror. All of the top contractors I know, in spite of the economic conditions, or booked up weeks in advance. How can that be? I think we all know the answer. Let's not hide behind the real reasons ok?


 
I'm busy, and I still disagree with this ! There are a lot of factors to be considered before saying something like this.:thumbdown:


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## Julius793

tufts46argled said:


> Get sued for side work gone bad and you'll see the argument!


Ok read my post again that's what I said LIABILITY, which includes getting sued thrown in jail Ect...


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## emahler

Gaterhater said:


> Nail on the head. I understand why ec's bitch so much about people doing side work. Hell, I am an ec. If guys wanna do side work, fine. Don't use my material, don't use my name, if you need a tool you better check with me first. Any of those rules broken, and I will find out, you're fired! *If you start competing with me or taking work from me, you're fired! The crap my guys are doing are jobs I don't want. There's no money in it, for me anyways. Too much time and expenditures To even make it worth while!* I'm sure most of you have had a hook up before! Got a buddy who's a mechanic? Aunt who's a seams trace? Brother who's a roofer? It's one thing if someone is running an under the table company. But doing a few odd jobs here and there for friends or even acquaintances? If that is killing yalls business than you have done something wrong not the jobber!


ok..flip side and forest from the trees view...

you do commercial work...your guys do small resi side jobs..you don't care because there is 'no money in it'...great...

except - there are thousands of legitimate, $1mil+, EC's who only do small residential work...Nexstar/ESI/Mr. Electric/Mr. Sparky/guys on this board/thousands of small independent EC's across the country/Etc....there is plenty of money in it, if you are set up for it and know what you are doing...usually at a higher profit % than commercial...

so, they are now, in all honesty, in the same market as your side job employee...he's effecting their income...

so what do they do? they go after bigger jobs...your jobs...problem is, they are resi guys...they don't know how to price commercial...

but they are legal, and qualified on paper...so they start underpricing you...because they don't know any better...

Slippery slope, I know...but save a couple of guys in niche's, like Brian John - though I'm going to bet that he's lost contracts to EC's who are underbidding him due to not having the proper knowledge/tools-, it happens to all of us...

next time you bid a job that should be $250,000 (with $100,000 in material) and some EC bids it at $150,000....look at your side jobbers and thank them for taking that guys work so he can move up and f' up your world...

there will always be someone sticking their hand your pocket...should we just accept it and let them?


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## electricmanscott

emahler said:


> there will always be someone sticking their hand your pocket...should we just accept it and let them?


Nobody owns or is entitled to any particular work and it's not your money or your pocket. It's a free market. I deal with the 40 bucks an hour guys in the market that I'm in. It's annoying as hell but it is the way it is and really I wouldn't want it any other way.


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## brian john

electricmanscott said:


> Nobody owns or is entitled to any particular work and it's not your money or your pocket. It's a free market. I deal with the 40 bucks an hour guys in the market that I'm in. It's annoying as hell but it is the way it is and really I wouldn't want it any other way.


 
BUT, if we are forced to pay for licenses (county, city, state, electrical, business), taxes, lose money waiting for inspectors as we play by the rules, all I ask is everyone else do the same.


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## MechanicalDVR

Side work is just an shameful thing, it kept me able to have expensive hobbies for years.


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## electricmanscott

brian john said:


> BUT, if we are forced to pay for licenses (county, city, state, electrical, business), taxes, lose money waiting for inspectors as we play by the rules, all I ask is everyone else do the same.


Agreed.


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## emahler

brian john said:


> BUT, if we are forced to pay for licenses (county, city, state, electrical, business), taxes, lose money waiting for inspectors as we play by the rules, all I ask is everyone else do the same.


Exactly. It's a free market, with rules and parameter. If you don't want to follow those rules, you don't deserve to be in the market. 

And scott - I disagree. It is my job and my money. It's also your job and your money. If you can keep it. I don't mean it in the sense that I "own" it. I mean either you or I will get the money. I'm putting it in my pocket. And I'm gonna keep your hands out of my pockets.


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## 480sparky

For all you out there who think doing 'side work' without being licensed, insured, etc. ask yourself:

Would you go to a doctor who isn't licensed?

Would you take your kids to an unlicensed day-care facility?

Would you hire a lawyer who didn't pass the bar exam?

Would you prefer no one on the highway have a driver's license?

Would you let any Tom, Dîck or Harry be a teacher at your kids' school?

Would you get onto an airplane that's piloted Frank Abagnale Jr. (_Catch Me if You Can_) ?


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## electricmanscott

Never have I advocated illegal side work. My replies are all strictly in regards to legal side work. Apples and oranges


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## sparky=t

love the people that know you are a CONTRACTOR and then ask you to do it on the side. Do they think your normal expenses diminish just for them?


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## Island Electric

Would you let your family starve.
Would you lose your house.

Side work will be around till the end of America. When the guberment runs our lives 100% then side work will end. I hope side work never ends because that will mean freedom as we we know it will be gone. What I would like to see is the people who come to this country illegally to be deported. Instead we fight amongst ourselves for small jobs while the real issues grow larger.

Then you have the Contractors themselves.
How many licensed & Insured contractors out there have undocumented people working for them. How many Licensed & Insured Contractors pay their help cash. This in my opinion is also worse than what a side jobber does.

If these people are stopping you from making a living then you might be doing something wrong, need to change what you do for a living or need to just relocate to another area.

Do you honestly think a side jobber will read this thread and not do any more side jobs. It's truly amazing what people will do to survive. 

Threads like these are laughable!

EDIT: I'm not advocating side work just saying while we are picking up table scraps the real issues grow larger.


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## B W E

This thread is like trying to talk a crack addict out of his habit by telling him how bad it is for him. The problem is, money is like crack. When it starts coming in, you will not get someone to turn away from it. Nobody on here is going to talk someone out if doing side work. Do you guys really thing the OP of the other thread is going to read this stuff and say "holy crap!! NOW I GET IT! I must stop doing side jobs at once!". No. Not a chance. Not in a million years. One IMF two things is going to happen.

1. Something bad will happen. He will pay dearly, if he is lucky, only financially, but, also might get thrown in jail if someone gets hurt.
2. He will continue to do side work. Word will spread among his circle of people, and he will get more and more. He will learn a lot, become better and faster, charge a little more appropriately (based on the work being done, not based on his overhead), and it will become a second job for him. 

Eventually, the income he's bringing in will become part of his life, and he and his family will plan for it and depend on it, so his side jobs will transform into "real jobs" for "real clients" and he will feel an obligation from inside to satisfy, to complete, to do all the things a business owner would do, just without all the dirty stuff business owners have to deal with, that homeowners never have to see. He'll start to make quite a bit of money, and soon, it be as though his regular job is getting in the way. Boss will ask him to work overtime, which many people would jump at, but the $36 an hour he'll make for those two hours can't touch the amount he'd bring in from the side job that he has scheduled for immediately after work. He will begin to resent his boss and the fact that he has a job, and at night will start to think of how much better his life would be if he worked for himself.

Within a few years (or 8) he'll find himself with an opportunity to leave the company he is with and go out on his own. With several years of experience dealing with homeowners, a list of several hundred happy clients, and a taste of the money, his legitimate, legal, licensed bonded and insured business, will be born. 

Can this tired old thread be done now??


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## BBQ

electricmanscott said:


> Nobody owns or is entitled to any particular work and it's not your money or your pocket.


*Hell Yeah!​*


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## retiredsparktech

MechanicalDVR said:


> Side work is just an shameful thing, it kept me able to have expensive hobbies for years.


I used to do TV and electronic repair on the side. I should've used what little money I earned to get my head examined.


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## BBQ

electricmanscott said:


> Never have I advocated illegal side work. My replies are all strictly in regards to legal side work. Apples and oranges


I know, some people seem to have a real tough time understanding that not all 'side work' is illegal.


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## BBQ

B W E said:


> Can this tired old thread be done now??


I get it, you gave your long opinion and now the thread should be closed.

Makes sense.:laughing:


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## jza

OP, shut up.


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## mdfriday

Side work is good for two people, The guy doing it, and the customer thinking they saved money.

Really, doing side work, whether legitimately, or illegitimately, you have the _*same*_ risks as a real contractor.....Not getting paid, fire, injury, lawsuit, warranty, etc.

What makes a contractor different from a side jobber, the contractor takes action to limit, reduce, or circumvent those risks whether for the customer or themselves.

I myself am a legitimate part-time contractor. I have a focus/ niche, (and laughing all the way to the bank....:laughing I also am employed by a contractor full time. I also consult / estimate for other contractors....

This is AMERICA :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## B W E

BBQ said:


> I get it, you gave your long opinion and now the thread should be closed.
> 
> Makes sense.:laughing:


No, I just think it's funny to watch you guys go on for days about the same thing  Sharing the same opinions, and expecting anything you say to have any impact.


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## electricmanscott

B W E said:


> No, I just think it's funny to watch you guys go on for days about the same thing  Sharing the same opinions, and expecting anything you say to have any impact.


It is funny! But you're here too. :thumbup:


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## BBQ

B W E said:


> No, I just think it's funny to watch you guys go on for days about the same thing  Sharing the same opinions, and expecting anything you say to have any impact.


And your posts are different in what way?


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## B W E

electricmanscott said:


> It is funny! But you're here too. :thumbup:


Touché


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## johnnyontheside

I guess y'all know where I stand on this subject.


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## chicken steve

johnnyontheside said:


> I guess y'all know where I stand on this subject.


 
the subject is the old _one leg up_ John

it's _always_ been that way, since we were crawling out of the ocean to find new horizons. 

Nature itself provides _many _examples

George Orwell wrote animal farm , the greatest social metaphor ever to see print 

Our entire capitalist system is predicated on a _leg up over the next guy_

~CS~


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## parnellelectric

We give the guy doing sidework hell. Its no different than the EC who hire illegal labor or tells one thats been injured on the job, good luck with that. This is also the world where I compete. Not to mention all the other illegal acts. I do not support it but it does happen. The problem is enforcement. There should be more on all fronts. Or get rid of the rules and get it on.


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## dronai

I was contracting for a small property manager, who asked me if I knew of any GC, that he could have do some work. I said I had a guy I really like working for, who was really good tradesman too, but that he wasn't licensed. He said no thanks, it's like having a Plastic Surgeon you know who's really good, but he's not licensed !


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## TOOL_5150

I do what I have to do to keep paying the bills. This topic has no solution, just deal with it.


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## cccp sparky

When I first came to this country, competition was not as severe among the finish carpenters. We could consistently bid low. Now there are many immigrants who work for less and less. We are not always low bid now, and there is much shopping by the builder. So we move up to more sophisticated trades and playing a GC role. Still, much better than any alternative. *for cccp sparky.


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## electricmanscott

parnellelectric said:


> We give the guy doing sidework hell. Its no different than the EC who hire illegal labor or tells one thats been injured on the job, good luck with that. This is also the world where I compete. Not to mention all the other illegal acts. I do not support it but it does happen. The problem is enforcement. There should be more on all fronts. Or get rid of the rules and get it on.


In what state is sidework Illegal? :001_huh:


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## parnellelectric

electricmanscott said:


> In what state is sidework Illegal? :001_huh:


 In NC, Its illegal for alot of trades, for safety. Electrical, HVAC, Plumbing, Security, even GC's when the $ get high enough. The side work guy are less of a problem, than the fly by night. Thats got his mini van, with a ladder straped on top, magnetic sign, web page, and advertising with no license. Not to mention the HANDYMAN SERVICE. At least with the side work guys, hopefuly we have taught them enough to keep someone from getting killed.


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## parnellelectric

TOOL_5150 said:


> I do what I have to do to keep paying the bills. This topic has no solution, just deal with it.


 This is the wrong forum for toilet plungers, I thought.


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## BBQ

parnellelectric said:


> In NC, Its illegal for alot of trades, for safety. Electrical, HVAC, Plumbing, Security, even GC's when the $ get high enough. The side work guy are less of a problem, than the fly by night. Thats got his mini van, with a ladder straped on top, magnetic sign, web page, and advertising with no license. Not to mention the HANDYMAN SERVICE. At least with the side work guys, hopefuly we have taught them enough to keep someone from getting killed.


I was going to let this go but then you went on with this ...



parnellelectric said:


> This is the wrong forum for toilet plungers, I thought.


So spell it out, what are you specifically saying is the illegal part of side work?

No vague 'it's illegal' tell us exactly what law is being broken?


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## electricmanscott

parnellelectric said:


> In NC, Its illegal for alot of trades, for safety. Electrical, HVAC, Plumbing, Security, even GC's when the $ get high enough. The side work guy are less of a problem, than the fly by night. Thats got his mini van, with a ladder straped on top, magnetic sign, web page, and advertising with no license. Not to mention the HANDYMAN SERVICE. At least with the side work guys, hopefuly we have taught them enough to keep someone from getting killed.


So are you talking about side work or unlicensed work? Two very different things. This topic is about side work. And as BBQ mentioned, exactly what laws are being broken?


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## knowshorts

The problem is the term "side work" is too vague. What exactly does it mean? How do we define it? 

When I hear the term "side work" I automatically think of the illegal term. In CA, you must be a licensed contractor for any work over $500. Most (not all) guys performing side work are not electrical contractors. They are electricians trying to make more money, illegally. The vast majority of them are not claiming this additional income as income on the state and federal taxes. They may also be unemployed and collecting unemployment insurance and doing the side work. Violating the 3 things above is what makes it illegal.

Now, If you are working your 40 for contractor A and also own business B and only do business B on your off hours, then that is not a side job, it is your legitimate business, as long as the business is being operated legally in the eyes of the law.


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## electricmanscott

Side work is work you do _on the side_. You would have a full time job and do work after hours or on weekends. That's it.


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## Bkessler

knowshorts said:


> The problem is the term "side work" is too vague. What exactly does it mean? How do we define it?
> 
> When I hear the term "side work" I automatically think of the illegal term. In CA, you must be a licensed contractor for any work over $500. Most (not all) guys performing side work are not electrical contractors. They are electricians trying to make more money, illegally. The vast majority of them are not claiming this additional income as income on the state and federal taxes. They may also be unemployed and collecting unemployment insurance and doing the side work. Violating the 3 things above is what makes it illegal.
> 
> Now, If you are working your 40 for contractor A and also own business B and only do business B on your off hours, then that is not a side job, it is your legitimate business, as long as the business is being operated legally in the eyes of the law.


California needs to dump that $500 no license law. BTW, I let me c10 expire and have turned down about 40 jobs and done one. For my in laws neighbor and my payment was a jar of Saunders fudge.


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## knowshorts

Bkessler said:


> California needs to dump that $500 no license law.


Agreed. Also they need to quit allowing old contractors who live in OC to take prevailing wage jobs in RC and posting on internet forums all day long, while I'm footing the bill


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## Bkessler

knowshorts said:


> Agreed. Also they need to quit allowing old contractors who live in OC to take prevailing wage jobs in RC and posting on internet forums all day long, while I'm footing the bill


As long as the state is going to throw money away, I am gonna be there with a garbage can to pick it up. And I only post during the day when I am in the big blue carlon box.


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## knowshorts

Bkessler said:


> As long as the state is going to throw money away, I am gonna be there with a garbage can to pick it up. And I only post during the day when I am in the big blue carlon box.


I hear ya. You must spend a lot of time in the Space Shuttle.


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## Bkessler

knowshorts said:


> I hear ya. You must spend a lot of time in the Space Shuttle.


I'd rather get paid to crap than crap for free at home. That's for suckers.


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## parnellelectric

BBQ said:


> I was going to let this go but then you went on with this ...
> 
> 
> 
> So spell it out, what are you specifically saying is the illegal part of side work?
> 
> No vague 'it's illegal' tell us exactly what law is being broken?


*87-43. Electrical contracting defined; licenses.*
Electrical contracting shall be defined as engaging or offering to engage in the business of installing, maintaining, altering or repairing any electric work, wiring, devices, appliances or equipment. No person, partnership, firm or corporation shall engage, or offer to engage, in the business of electrical contracting within the State of North Carolina without having received a license in the applicable classification described in G.S. 87-43.3 from the State Board of Examiners of Electrical Contractors in compliance with the provisions of this Article, regardless of whether the offer was made or the work was performed by a qualified individual as defined in G.S.87-41.1. In each separate place of business operated by an electrical contractor at least one listed qualified individual shall be regularly on active duty and shall have the specific duty and authority to supervise and direct all electrical wiring or electrical installation work done or made by such separate place of business. Every person, partnership, firm or corporation engaging in the business of electrical contracting shall display a current certificate of license in his principal place of business and in each branch place of business which he operates. Licenses issued hereunder shall be signed by the chairman and the secretary-treasurer of the Board, under the seal of the Board. A registry of all licenses issued to electrical contractors shall be kept by the secretary-treasurer of the Board, and said registry shall be open for public inspection during ordinary business hours.


----------



## electricmanscott

parnellelectric said:


> *87-43. Electrical contracting defined; licenses.*
> Electrical contracting shall be defined as engaging or offering to engage in the business of installing, maintaining, altering or repairing any electric work, wiring, devices, appliances or equipment. No person, partnership, firm or corporation shall engage, or offer to engage, in the business of electrical contracting within the State of North Carolina without having received a license in the applicable classification described in G.S. 87-43.3 from the State Board of Examiners of Electrical Contractors in compliance with the provisions of this Article, regardless of whether the offer was made or the work was performed by a qualified individual as defined in G.S.87-41.1. In each separate place of business operated by an electrical contractor at least one listed qualified individual shall be regularly on active duty and shall have the specific duty and authority to supervise and direct all electrical wiring or electrical installation work done or made by such separate place of business. Every person, partnership, firm or corporation engaging in the business of electrical contracting shall display a current certificate of license in his principal place of business and in each branch place of business which he operates. Licenses issued hereunder shall be signed by the chairman and the secretary-treasurer of the Board, under the seal of the Board. A registry of all licenses issued to electrical contractors shall be kept by the secretary-treasurer of the Board, and said registry shall be open for public inspection during ordinary business hours.



Which has what to do with side work? :confused1:


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## HARRY304E

electricmanscott said:


> Which has what to do with side work? :confused1:



He is just saying that you have to be legitimate where he lives to do side work.


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## leland

electricmanscott said:


> Which has what to do with side work? :confused1:



Am I reading the law correctly?

You need a separate bond for each project based on value.
Is that what makes one an EC?

I read it as: A lic. Electrician can do business with proper insurance or get insurance and hire 1 electrician as an employee.

*87-43.3. Classification of licenses.* An electrical contracting license shall be issued in one of the following classifications: Limited, under which a licensee shall be permitted to engage in a single electrical contracting project of a value not in excess of forty thousand dollars ($40,000) and on which the equipment or installation in the contract is rated at not more than 600 volts; Intermediate, under which a licensee shall be permitted to engage in a single electrical contracting project of a value not in excess of one hundred ten thousand dollars ($110,000); Unlimited, under which a licensee shall be permitted to engage in any electrical contracting project regardless of value; and such other special Restricted classifications as the Board may establish from time to time to provide, (i) for the licensing of persons, partnerships, firms or corporations wishing to engage in special restricted electrical contracting, under which license a licensee shall be permitted to engage only in a specific phase of electrical contracting of a special, limited nature, and (ii) for the licensing of persons, partnerships, firms or corporations wishing to engage in electrical contracting work as an incidental part of their primary business, which is a lawful business other than electrical contracting, under which license a licensee shall be permitted to engage only in a specific phase of electrical contracting of a special, limited nature directly in connection with said primary business. The Board may establish appropriate standards for each classification, such standards not to be inconsistent with the provisions of G.S. 87-42. The Board may, by rule, modify the project value limitations up to the maximum amounts set forth in this section for limited and intermediate licenses no more than once every three years based upon an increase or decrease in the project cost index for electrical projects in this State.
*87-43.4. Residential dwelling license.*
There is hereby created a separate license for electrical contractors which shall permit an electrical contractor to engage in electrical contracting projects pertaining to single-family detached residential dwellings. The value of a single project pertaining to a single-family detached residential dwelling shall not be in excess of the maximum value, established in G.S. 87-43.3, of a single project engaged in by a licensee with a license classified as limited. The Board shall establish appropriate standards for this new license. The standards of knowledge, experience and proficiency shall be those appropriate for that license.


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## 87Electric

What if you have insurance,work for a contractor and do side work....I love side work it buys my tools and helps pay for bills.


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## milk man

I think most everyone did side work before. Some come to realize that it is not the best thing to do. Some are selfish and always want more. Some even use it as a spring board to owning their own company.

Here is a question that really does not need to be answered here, but might remind yourselves how you really got your own company. Since I don't expect an answer and don't really want one, be honest with yourself. How did you start your business? Where you born into it, taking over from family? Did you do side work? Did your spouce have a good paying job while you where building your company with, "without a paycheck". Did you work and save or invest until you could go without an income for a while? Inherited funds, you know, the old fashioned way of getting rich?









For the most part I've always been able to get 40 hours in. Many weeks 40 was just the beginning and could always count on at least 4 additional on Saturday. I also was older and had reasonable household bill and reserve cash. 

So, the side work I did was just for extra money. I grew a little more mature and realized that I was working for cheap SOB that where getting over on the "system". I was making less than what I would make on OT working for my employer. I was also taking a huge risk to my personal net worth. I've also helped people out that sworn they where down to their last penny only to find out their trip to the boats or races was not factored into the same budget as the furnace replacement. 

I still get "friends" asking if I'd do some sort of repair for them. The same friends that don't sit by me at the ball games or school plays. I get people want to buy parts off the truck and get mad when I tell them I'm not allowed to. They also get mad when I tell them I'll go over and make a repair but will bill them them through the company. They can't call a company and have some be there in 5 minutes, but still get mad at me for wanting to write an invoice. Is this really the type of people that you want to spend your off time save money for them? Really? When I do go I get paid two hours of OT minimum. Mant times I'm back home in an hour. The company makes money, my "friend" is comfortable again, and I've been paid very well for usualy very little work. A win, win, win situation.

My personal rule and any employer can kiss my butt if they don't like it: If I can call you at a moment's notice at anytime of the day or night to watch my kid in an emergency, the get help from me.

Family always get help from me.

I'll buy the part from my employer and pay 10% (his policy) with out a problem. But I'm picking up the part at the shop and not running all over the place on my time. Install go through the company to protect me.

If I start not getting my 40 then all bets are off. I need my employer in February, I'm there for my employer in July without complaint.


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## Amish Electrician

"OP shut up"

That has to be my favorite reply to this thread. Look, it's a free forum, and no one need read, or participate in, any thread that they don't like.

"Everyone does it" .... apart from being untrue - I certainly never did it - what does that argument prove? It matters not to the judge that 'everybody' drives over the speed limit, when you have to answer for the ticket you got. Wrong is wrong, no matter how many do it.

This thread is not going to change anyone's mind ... but it just might be read by those new to the trade who are tempted by the 'easy money.'

Sure, it looks good ... until you get fired / laid off the moment the boss learns of it. Lots of luck keeping your apprenticeship then. 

Sure, it looks good ... until you get strung along by some shark, and finally realize that all your time was free, and you're out cash for the work you did.


----------



## BBQ

Amish Electrician said:


> "Everyone does it" .... apart from being untrue - I certainly never did it


Did what exactly?

As has been mentioned many times there is a difference between working illegally and simply working on the side with proper license and permits.

Where I am I am legally allowed to pull a permit and charge people whatever I want for electrical work even though I am presently employed by an EC.

I choose not to, but you can bet i used to.


----------



## Amish Electrician

During the time I was on the payroll of an electrical contractor, I was approached numerous times by various folks who wanted me to do electrical work for them. 

My answer was simple: "I have a job. I work hard all day. my time is my own. I have a life. Here's the boss's number, give him a call and we'll be happy to do the work."

If I had something I needed to fix in my own home, I went to Home Depot on my own time and got the material. If I wanted to borrow the company sawz-it-all, I asked .... even if I normally had it on my truck anyway.

So, no matter how the Wormtougues try to twist 'side work' into something else, I didn't do it. Ever.

Silly me ... I just assuemd that this was the way everyone operated. 

Then again, every time I've declined to buy tools from a questionable source, the vendor has used the 'everyone does it' line. I'm about a whisker from adding "Everyone does it" to my list of things a man can say that proves he's a crook.

Regarding the crooks, I try to uphold the honor code: I will not lie, cheat, or steal - OR tolerate those who do. No sense giving the crooks the advantage.


----------



## SteveO.

It seems the only real discrepancy in here is people's definition of what constitutes "side work". For me, I'm fully licensed and insured, pull a permit for my own jobs and even pay taxes. I call it "side work" because it's not my full time job anymore, but I don't work for beer or under cut other contractors. I price the job to make good money and usually get the job because I was referred to the customer, not because I'm cheap. 

In my mind, there's nothing wrong with doing side work at all unless you're selling yourself short. I won't give up my evenings or weekends for $40 an hour and if you do you aren't getting the money you deserve for the skill and expertise you've earned. 

I do disagree with guys stealing work from their employers to do it cheaper or under cutting other contractors and doing work without permits and insurance but if you're able to make the same profit on a job and are able to do it without all the overhead then you're just more efficient than the other guys, and that's to your advantage and you shouldn't have to apologize for it. I got in to a long, heated discussion with a guy at the wholesaler who was mad at me for doing a job for $3000 that he would have charged $5000 for. His argument was that he was charging $95 an hour and to do that $5000 was the bid. When I told him I would be making more than that an hour but not sitting drinking coffee at the wholesaler every day for 2 hours and then waddling around at a snails pace on the job, the guy behind the counter just laughed. 

My point is that just because you're a contractor and drive your van all day, doesn't mean you're entitled to the jobs. If guys are getting them for less and still making a decent wage on them it's up to the other contractors to get faster or streamline their business to keep up and stay competitive. If you don't you'll go broke and all the complaining about the faster more efficient guys won't get you any closer to paying the bills. I always make sure I make good money for myself and if I can do a job for less than you, I'm not making less per hour, I'm just more efficient. Lots of the old guys seem to forget that they're competing for the work.


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## nitro71

Sidework = experience and cash in your pocket. Everything else is just scare tactics. Don't bite off much more than you can chew and you'll be fine.


----------



## leland

I will pass up an opportunity to make money for myself IF-

It is in a direct conflict with my employers business. After all, They do make my mortgage payments possible.

My Boss does not do electrical,so I don't do fire pump testing,(though I could and the numbers are tempting).


----------



## nitro71

leland said:


> I will pass up an opportunity to make money for myself IF-
> 
> It is in a direct conflict with my employers business. After all, They do make my mortgage payments possible.
> 
> My Boss does not do electrical,so I don't do fire pump testing,(though I could and the numbers are tempting).


I can do what I want on my own time with my own contacts. Soliciting work when on the job is one thing but you are your own man off the clock. Grow a pair.


----------



## leland

nitro71 said:


> I can do what I want on my own time with my own contacts. Soliciting work when on the job is one thing but you are your own man off the clock. Grow a pair.



I found my brain to be more useful,Thanx.

I will do FA work for small accounts that can not pay the CO's overhead and rates.

But I will not take on a disgruntled account,that is just plain dumb. Word travels fast.


----------



## nitro71

leland said:


> I found my brain to be more useful,Thanx.
> 
> I will do FA work for small accounts that can not pay the CO's overhead and rates.
> 
> But I will not take on a disgruntled account,that is just plain dumb. Word travels fast.


Just saying that if you have your own contacts outside of work that you can do as you see fit.


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## brian john

nitro71 said:


> Just saying that if you have your own contacts outside of work that you can do as you see fit.


Yes you can and if he worked for me and I found out he would have a chance to draw unemployment.


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## cccp sparky

brian john said:


> Yes you can and if he worked for me and I found out he would have a chance to draw unemployment.


The best is to draw the unemployment and doing sideworks. This pays equivalence $100+ per the hour.


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## 480sparky

cccp sparky said:


> The best is to draw the unemployment and doing sideworks.........


.......which is typically illegal.


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## johnnyontheside

cccp sparky said:


> The best is to draw the unemployment and doing sideworks. This pays equivalence $100+ per the hour.


One more reason they need to eliminate unemployment. That is worse than the handyman doing electrical work.


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## brian john

cccp sparky said:


> The best is to draw the unemployment and doing sideworks. This pays equivalence $100+ per the hour.


So you are not only break the law concerning contractors you commit fraud?


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## milk man

nitro71 said:


> Sidework = experience and cash in your pocket. Everything else is just scare tactics. Don't bite off much more than you can chew and you'll be fine.


I'm happy to heed the scare tactics. I had nothing but relief when the house burned down just a block away. I passed on side work from the previous owner a few years ago.


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## cccp sparky

If you performing the sideworks, accept only cashes. Then there is no grounds to go back upon if fires.


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## 480sparky

cccp sparky said:


> If you performing the sideworks, accept only cashes. Then there is no grounds to go back upon if fires.


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## TOOL_5150

cccp sparky said:


> If you performing the sideworks, accept only cashes. Then there is no grounds to go back upon if fires.


The customers that I dont trust, they pay in cash, know my first name only, and can get ahold of me by email only.:whistling2:


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## TOOL_5150

parnellelectric said:


> This is the wrong forum for toilet plungers, I thought.


This is the wrong forum for me altogether, but I haven't been banned yet. :thumbsup:


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## chicken steve

you folks do realize that this 'lectrical site (et all) posts almost daily hacks that _scream_ punishment justifying the crime, right?

~CS~


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## BBQ

chicken steve said:


> you folks do realize that this 'lectrical site (et all) posts almost daily hacks that _scream_ punishment justifying the crime, right?
> 
> ~CS~


I might realize something .............. If I could only understand WTF you were trying to say. 

Really it goes right over my head and I am a guy that can understand Article 250.:laughing:


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## chicken steve

the hacks are _winning_ BBQ.....~CS~


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## BBQ

chicken steve said:


> the hacks are _winning_ BBQ.....~CS~


Wasn't that easy?

But I disagree, there have always been hacks.


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## chicken steve

BBQ said:


> Wasn't that easy?
> 
> But I disagree, there have always been hacks.


sites like this are all the proof one should need imho, but

we can agree to disagree BBQ

~CS~


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## brian john

BBQ said:


> Wasn't that easy?
> 
> But I disagree, there have always been hacks.


And always will be. Being licensed has nothing to do with quality of work. BUT if you locality requires a license to pull a permit, and you do not have the required documentation it puts you in the realm of a hack.


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## chicken steve

brian john said:


> And always will be. Being licensed has nothing to do with quality of work. BUT if you locality requires a license to pull a permit, and you do not have the required documentation it puts you in the realm of a hack.


 
and if all there is to mitigate unpermitted work is a _paper tiger_ , they'll continue to do so , and thumb their noses at us as they do.....~CS~


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## brian john

chicken steve said:


> and if all there is to mitigate unpermitted work is a _paper tiger_ , they'll continue to do so , and thumb their noses at us as they do.....~CS~


Of course, as Bob said there have always been and always will be.


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## chicken steve

my point is, it's _advocated_ by legislation Brian

we, as licensed entities are more cupable than any hack

check out your state's page on this if you'd like, and while you do remember that they may be yammering _'off with their heads'_ , yet rarely follow through do so

i'll let this forum now return to it's daily onslaught of hackism, along with the knashing of teeth, and wringing of hands then....

~CS~


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## electricmanscott

chicken steve said:


> my point is, it's _advocated_ by legislation Brian
> 
> we, as licensed entities are more cupable than any hack
> 
> check out your state's page on this if you'd like, and while you do remember that they may be yammering _'off with their heads'_ , yet rarely follow through do so
> 
> i'll let this forum now return to it's daily onslaught of hackism, along with the knashing of teeth, and wringing of hands then....
> 
> ~CS~



Isn't this thread about side work? :confused1:


----------



## BBQ

chicken steve said:


> sites like this are all the proof one should need imho, but
> 
> we can agree to disagree BBQ
> 
> ~CS~


We certainly can CS. 


I just don't understand how you think this site proves things are worse than they were in the past.

By the numbers I would say there is a larger quantity of hack jobs being done but a lower percentage of total electrical jobs being done.


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## manchestersparky

brian john said:


> Yes you can and if he worked for me and I found out he would have a chance to draw unemployment.


So you would fire an employee for what he/she chose to do on their own time? Regardless if it was a conflict (or not) with your business? 


I see no issue with a person doing side work LEGALLY. That means having the required licenses and insurances and paying taxes. 
I do have issues with those who "hack" side work - NO license, insurance,taxes.

To claim one should not do side work legally is complete BS. If it is being done legally , it is like I read on here before - Part-Time Contractor. Working part time contracting. 

Everyone is B*tching about side work guys charge less, yes they can due their cost of doing business is less. 
I'm sorry but I am a firm believer that what a person does in his or her own time is totally up to them AS LONG AS ITS DONE LEGALLY!

I did legal side work for quite some time. There were times the money was a blessing and times when the money was just extra money. I did not count on it

I worked for an EC for 8 years once. He called me and asked me to come to work for him. He knew I did legal sidework when he called me. After working for him for 4 years he handed me a form to sign that stated I would not do any sidework in the electrical trade what so ever. I ripped it in half and dropped it in his trash can when he handed it to me. Told him he might as well fire me now , because I was not signing that. I worked for him for 4 more years before I quit.
I feel sorry for people who would sign something like that! Yes you work for an employer, but they do not own you !

Next EC I worked for I was with them for 15 years and the president of the company gave me work.

When I took my masters test for my license. I didn't want my license to just show it off and not use it. I took the test for my license to use it to make money, to use it as a "key" to open doors that wouldn't be opened without a license, and for self satisfaction. All three of which it has provided !


----------



## 480sparky

manchestersparky said:


> So you would fire an employee for what he/she chose to do on their own time? Regardless if it was a conflict (or not) with your business? ............


His business, his rules. If he wants to invoke a policy that performing 'side work' is a terminal offence, he's certainly free to do so. He can have policies on driving company vehicles off-hours, wearing company uniforms into bars, smoking on the job, swearing, drug testing, loud radios........... heck, if he wanted to require all his field techs to wear pink tu-tus, orange ballerina shoes, purple ribbons in their hair and be called 'Sally', that's well within his purview. 

One the flip side, there's no law that says you are required to work for him.

I can see where Brian is coming from. He wants to prevent any possibility of having an employee being 'in conflict' with his own business. Whether or not an employee is or isn't, having that policy in place gives him a better set of legal legs to stand on if he dismisses an employee for violating his policy.

Yes, what a person does on their own time _is_ their own business. Since running a business is Brian's own time, this applies to him as well.


----------



## Amish Electrician

Exactly what law is being broken? Well, I suppose that somewhere in creation there exists a place where electricians need not be licensed; contractors need not be licensed; bonds, insurance, and workmans' comp are unheard of; where there's no IRS or Social Security; and there are no permits or inspections. 

Can't tell a man what to do on his own time? That's news to me ... plenty of places suddenly decide that they don't need you the moment they find you have a second job (even if it's completely unrelated and without conflict), or they even suspect that they don't like you. Argue "rights" all you like, they don't HAVE to keep you on the payroll. "I just decided I don't want to continue our relationship" is all the guy needs to fire you. There's no need "to show cause," etc.

Even in the world of completely legal contracting, the issue of other work arises. Just review past threads; you'll find all manner of opinions expressed when a sparky does work for competing GC's, or returns to a site he once shared with a GC, or does electrical work for two competing businesses. Good heavens ... when I started doing electrical work for a second plumber, the first guy threw a fit! He was SO paranoid that I'd be giving away his 'secrets.' (Well, that's a topic for another day).

So ... all the parlor-room lawyering aside .... the side worker has to ask himself: what would my main employer think if he saw me right now? Then our side worker -no matter what your definition of 'side work' may be- has to ask himself whether that little side job is worth more to him, more important to him, than his 'real' job.


----------



## 480sparky

Amish Electrician said:


> Exactly what law is being broken? .........


No law.......... just company policies.




Amish Electrician said:


> ....... I suppose that somewhere in creation there exists a place where........ there's no IRS ..........


Outside the U.S. is pretty much it. But if you make a buck while in the country, Uncle Sam wants 85¢ of it.


----------



## BBQ

Amish Electrician said:


> Exactly what law is being broken? Well, I suppose that somewhere in creation there exists a place where electricians need not be licensed; contractors need not be licensed; bonds, insurance, and workmans' comp are unheard of; where there's no IRS or Social Security; and there are no permits or inspections.



You are not reading the thread, it has been pointed out that there is a difference between _illegal_ work and _side_ work.

Where I am a Journeyman can pull a permit, they must have insurance or the HO can sign an insurance wavier.

As far as taxes, that is as relevant as winning on a scratch card, you are supposed to report it. 




> Can't tell a man what to do on his own time? That's news to me ... plenty of places suddenly decide that they don't need you the moment they find you have a second job (even if it's completely unrelated and without conflict), or they even suspect that they don't like you.


I don't disagree with you but again that has nothing to do with it being legal or not.

And as 480 pointed out there is nothing that says I have to work for a company with rules I do not like.






> Argue "rights" all you like, they don't HAVE to keep you on the payroll. "I just decided I don't want to continue our relationship" is all the guy needs to fire you. There's no need "to show cause," etc.


I can't agree with you there, once a company is big enough there are often subject to wrongful termination suits and while you may well prevail it will have cost you money so documentation is a good idea.



> Even in the world of completely legal contracting, the issue of other work arises. Just review past threads; you'll find all manner of opinions expressed when a sparky does work for competing GC's, or returns to a site he once shared with a GC, or does electrical work for two competing businesses. Good heavens ... when I started doing electrical work for a second plumber, the first guy threw a fit! He was SO paranoid that I'd be giving away his 'secrets.'


As you just said, these perils await a full timer or a side jobber.



> So ... all the parlor-room lawyering aside .... the side worker has to ask himself: what would my main employer think if he saw me right now?


None of the companies I have worked for in the past 25 + years would have any issue with it at all. Hell, sometimes I got the leads for side work from the boss. I did side work for the first 15 years or so, now I choose not to for my own reasons not the companies. 



> Then our side worker -no matter what your definition of 'side work' may be- has to ask himself whether that little side job is worth more to him, more important to him, than his 'real' job.


Wow, so much drama. :laughing:


----------



## brian john

manchestersparky said:


> So you would fire an employee for what he/she chose to do on their own time? Regardless if it was a conflict (or not) with your business?


I was commenting on the post regarding doing the same work as the boss.

You doing work on the side that does not conflict with my work, AND DO NOT use my vehicle, or material and does not affect you working OT when we have scheduled OT. I am not concerned, except for you personal libility.


----------



## McClary’s Electrical

brian john said:


> I was commenting on the post regarding doing the same work as the boss.
> 
> You doing work on the side that does not conflict with my work, AND DO NOT use my vehicle, or material and does not affect you working OT when we have scheduled OT. I am not concerned, except for you personal libility.


Noncompetes exist for a reason.


----------



## brian john

mcclary's electrical said:


> Noncompetes exist for a reason.


As a union contractor I would not ask them to sign one, and I MAY not be able to ask them to sign one.

I have FULL TIME employees, and to date 27 years I have had only one issue with side jobbers. One guy was taking off early (but turning in 8), couldn't work OT as he had side work and using my truck, a regular thief. He no longer works here.

Keep it on the side so it is not an issue and it is your concern, make it my concern and then I have to take action.


----------



## manchestersparky

brian john said:


> Keep it on the side so it is not an issue and it is your concern, make it my concern and then I have to take action.


That I agree with 100% When I say doing LEGAL side work as a part-time contractor I mean AS A CONTRACTOR! That means you use your own tools, your own vehicle, buy all your own material, and do not do it on someones else's time. I have a shop full of tools and materials from when I was actively working on the side. 

I can completely understand 480's remarks - If it's a company policy and you agree to it when hired. As far as being let go at a moments notice because "we don't need you anymore" that has been happening for years with employee's. Employee's jump ship all the time. You don't want me doing side work ? OK Good bye

Real Job ? I was taught any time you are making money doing something it was a JOB. I can remember a year when I made more on side work then at my "real job " !


----------



## slickvic277

brian john said:


> As a union contractor I would not ask them to sign one, and I MAY not be able to ask them to sign one.
> 
> I have FULL TIME employees, and to date 27 years I have had only one issue with side jobbers. One guy was taking off early (but turning in 8), couldn't work OT as he had side work and using my truck, a regular thief. He no longer works here.
> 
> Keep it on the side so it is not an issue and it is your concern, make it my concern and then I have to take action.


You all ready have a built in "non compete" clause in the contract that every IBEW member signs. In my local they encourage residential side work, because the only thing that we do that's considered "residential" is mass-produced new housing, apartment buildings, and condo's.

Service changes and ceiling fans are not even thought about by our contractors.

Now, if someone is out contracting new construction and doing commercial work, or working for a "non signatory" contractor, that's serious stuff with serious repercussions.

On a personal level the only "side work" or "moonlighting" I do anymore is for my friends and family. And I really avoid doing that because it takes up my much valuable free time. As for _contracting_ work on the "side" you gotta be a fool if you're not licensed and insured, but then again, how smart is the customer?

I never worked for anyone who was concerned about their guys doing side work or competing with trunk slammers. I'm of the opinion, if your in this business and your competing with trunk slammers and side jobbers, you might need a new business model. :thumbsup:


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## mbednarik

the contractor i used to work for would get all wound up about side jobs. Thats is one of the big reasons i left. If you pay me 24 hours a day, then you can dictate what i do 24 hours a day.


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## nitro71

I've never worked for anyone that cared if you did sidework to be honest. The companies I've worked for weren't competing against the side jobbers. Heck they would even let guys use the work van as long as they weren't stealing from them.


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## chicken steve

in the context of legality, aren't any of us who pocket $$$ in the realm of sidework?

~CS~


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## electricmanscott

chicken steve said:


> in the context of legality, aren't any of us who pocket $$$ in the realm of sidework?
> 
> ~CS~


WTF :confused1:


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## BBQ

electricmanscott said:


> WTF :confused1:


We are to stupid to understand the complex workings of his mind. :laughing:


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## 480sparky

BBQ said:


> We are to stupid to understand the complex workings of his mind. :laughing:


Or tanked up enough.


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## cccp sparky

If employee becomes the terminated by doings sideworks on personal times, then legally employer cannot denying the unemployment monies. Terminated employee should seeking assistances of union halls attornities.


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## knowshorts

cccp sparky said:


> If employee becomes the terminated by doings sideworks on personal times, then legally employer cannot denying the unemployment monies. Terminated employee should seeking assistances of union halls attornities.


If they were terminated, then doesn't that mean they were fired? In some cases UI benefits can be deniable for being fired. What's the halls attorney gonna do? Represent a member who was terminated for violating the union contract? Really?


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## OlSparky85

I see so the big wig gets all the work and is afraid of Sparky jr learning on his own and branching out. Thats what I hate people holding people down for there own benefit I say do the work make mistakes and own up to them im sure any one reading this will agree.
:thumbsup:


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## rewire

I would have agreed with you two years ago


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## five.five-six

BBQ said:


> We are to stupid to understand the complex workings of his mind. :laughing:


~CS~ has a beautiful mind.


----------



## brian john

OlSparky85 said:


> I see so the big wig gets all the work and is afraid of Sparky jr learning on his own and branching out. Thats what I hate people holding people down for there own benefit I say do the work make mistakes and own up to them im sure any one reading this will agree.
> :thumbsup:


First you are commenting on a 3 year old thread
Second you must have trouble comprehending as that is not what the majority of posters said.

Be legal, pull permits, have insurance, do not compete with your primary job, use your own tools and vehicle.


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## OlSparky85

To all the rookies out there I say just do it but do it knowing that lives are in your hands this isnt plumbing we have a very big responsibilty NEVER TAKE THAT LIGHTLY!


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## brian john

OlSparky85 said:


> To all the rookies out there I say just do it but do it knowing that lives are in your hands this isnt plumbing we have a very big responsibilty NEVER TAKE THAT LIGHTLY!


And rookies should not be doing side work IMO.


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## OlSparky85

Oh ok so because its an old thread that makes it irrelevant RELAX! Some of us are new here and are very interested in others opinions


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## ponyboy

OlSparky85 said:


> To all the rookies out there I say just do it but do it knowing that lives are in your hands this isnt plumbing we have a very big responsibilty NEVER TAKE THAT LIGHTLY!


4th year apprentice? Great advice man. Telling people who somehow know less than you to do unsupervised electrical work.


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## OlSparky85

I should have been more specific anyone attempting electrical work should be certified and have knowledge of the electrical codes and have an NEC thats up to date


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## OlSparky85

Yup I know as much as my boss and probably you Im able to do sidework and have never ever had a problem Ill have my own business within 3 years and do you know why?


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## ponyboy

Please tell us buckwheat


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## OlSparky85

Porque soy un perro para el jale! Unstoppable Mexican/American Force


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## electricmalone

OlSparky85 said:


> Yup I know as much as my boss and probably you Im able to do sidework and have never ever had a problem Ill have my own business within 3 years and do you know why?


This should be good... I can see the chip on your shoulder all the way over here on the East Coast.


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## OlSparky85

I do agree on certain things said on the thread I respect all opinions


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## greenwire

480sparky said:


> No law.......... just company policies.


Many areas have laws that state you must be an EC (not just a licensed electrician) to pull permits. Permits, if required, must be pulled to be legal. In order to pull permits, many states require insurances, WC, etc.

Others state that you must hold a Master license to pull a permit. Still, most require that anybody holding less than a Master must have the availability of a Master as a supervisor.

If you're working side jobs, and you aren't allowed to pull a permit, you are working illegally.

If you hold yourself out as a Contractor, and you're not, you have broken the law.

I'm sure there's other reasons why this could be considered "breaking the law" or "illegal".


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## brian john

OlSparky85 said:


> Yup I know as much as my boss and probably you Im able to do sidework and have never ever had a problem Ill have my own business within 3 years and do you know why?


And that shows how little you actually know, any 2 year helper that thinks he knows more that electricians that have been practicing there trade for multiple years has a lot to learn.


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## Roger

OlSparky85 said:


> I respect all opinions


I respect all onions, I can't say the same for opinions.

Roger


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## MTW

The troll/fail is strong with this one.


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## the-apprentice

in december , my dad gutted his house to the brick, i wired the whole house, everything from the load side of the meter base, I was slow at work so i had free time after work and the odd full day here and there, My dad was skeptical on letting me doing it because im still an apprentice,but i wanted to show him i guess that i knew what i was doing, haha, we took out all the required permits and my rough in/ panel change passed with flying colours. I will be getting a final next week, on the count that there are about 6 fixtures that my old man hasnt picked out yet, i would have called ealier but i figure its best to wait. but realistically i wouldent bother with that crap, its better to let my boss deal with picky/difficult customers. **** that


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## Big John

A friend of mine got his ass completely handed to him when he was doing unlicensed sidework as an apprentice. He got done with the job of adding a bunch of lights and a couple ceiling fans and instead of paying for the work as agreed, the homeowner reported him to the state claiming he'd misrepresented himself as a licensed electrician.

He managed to overcome the charges and eventually get his license, but apparently she still avoided paying him for the work, and it was an all-around unpleasant experience.


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## yrman

Wow. Guys who have been in the trade for many many years seem to realize that there is always more to learn. There is so much to this trade that anyone claiming after a couple of years to know more than their boss or who think that because they did a job and it passed inspection they are now great skilled tradesmen make my hair stand up on end.


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## the-apprentice

OlSparky85 said:


> Yup I know as much as my boss and probably you Im able to do sidework and have never ever had a problem Ill have my own business within 3 years and do you know why?


in 25 years if you are still in this trade, you will still not know everything.


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## jbrookers

yrman said:


> Wow. Guys who have been in the trade for many many years seem to realize that there is always more to learn. There is so much to this trade that anyone claiming after a couple of years to know more than their boss or who think that because they did a job and it passed inspection they are now great skilled tradesmen make my hair stand up on end.


 Passing an inspection is like passing a drug test. You dont brag about passing..your supposed to pass. Its the lest you can do. 

Besides, inspectors hardly check anything. We fix work in new recently inspected homes regularly. Not that the inspectors are bad, its just a flawed system. Inspections do not actually protect homeowners from bad work though undoubtedly help.


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## That_Dude

OlSparky85 said:


> Yup I know as much as my boss and probably you Im able to do sidework and have never ever had a problem Ill have my own business within 3 years and do you know why?


Saying you know more than someone else is like a competition, you compare against others and then someone else comes along and makes you feel like an idiot.
Life is better if you try not to be a know-it-all. I've seen plenty of folks go down this road and it always winds up bad for them.


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## Speedy Petey

OlSparky85 said:


> *Yup I know as much as my boss and probably you* Im able to do sidework and have never ever had a problem Ill have my own business within 3 years and do you know why?


Wow, wow, WOW!

I'm sorry, any 4th year that would have such little brains to actually say something like this is way too cocky for his own good. Either that or he's a genius and has no place doing trade work.


Guys, MA is hardcore about licensing, permits, etc. I think quite a few of our members here can attest to this. This kid is going to crash and burn if he doesn't lose the attitude. It's only sad that we won't be around to witness it.


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## cultch

It's the #1 problem in the trade. People should be putting their heads together to make it run the best that it can run. Saying you know more than anybody also the reverse when an older guy thinks a younger guy doesn't know anything. It's gotta be the same part of the brain that allows this to happen.

An analogy...say you were on a deserted island, you a grown man, a 6th grader, (2) 3rd graders and 12 kindegarteners. You gotta make fire build shelter and survive..wouldn't you lean on the 6th grader, then to a lesser extent the 3rd graders. Or would you say none of you know crap I got this alone.

At 13 yrs in the trade I equate myself to the 6th grader. However when I try to bounce ideas of of guys they take it as a weakness. I know what I would do if the more expierenced guy wasn't there but why not try and pick their brain. That's what truely smart people do. Not at the comapny's I've worked for tho. 

I think I've just ended up at some bad comapny's but I've seen it at every one of them. If a project is to take 100 days they after 2 of them you shouldn't be 10% thru the job (the hands on part). ect ect ect...


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## captkirk

cultch said:


> It's the #1 problem in the trade. People should be putting their heads together to make it run the best that it can run. Saying you know more than anybody also the reverse when an older guy thinks a younger guy doesn't know anything. It's gotta be the same part of the brain that allows this to happen.
> 
> An analogy...say you were on a deserted island, you a grown man, a 6th grader, (2) 3rd graders and 12 kindegarteners. You gotta make fire build shelter and survive..wouldn't you lean on the 6th grader, then to a lesser extent the 3rd graders. Or would you say none of you know crap I got this alone.
> 
> At 13 yrs in the trade I equate myself to the 6th grader. However wahen I try to bounce ideas of of guys they take it as a weakness. I know what I would do if the more expierenced guy wasn't there but why not try and pick their brain. That's what truely smart people do. Not at the comapny's I've worked for tho.
> 
> I think I've just ended up at some bad comapny's but I've seen it at every one of them. If a project is to take 100 days they after 2 of them you shouldn't be 10% thru the job (the hands on part). ect ect ect...


I encourage people to brainstorm or if they have an idea on how to do something better..


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## Hippie

side work will never go away.. the people that want it arent going to pay what a real ec charges, thats why the hire these people. residential or not it makes no difference, they are filling a niche in the market that i want nothing to do with. theyre the cheapest of the cheapos and the type of customer best avoided. if guys want to take on the liability let them... theres no money in it


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## rlc3854

I think we lost OLSPARKY85, he may have had hot side job service change,:jester:


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## Big John

jbrookers said:


> Passing an inspection is like passing a drug test. You dont brag about passing..your supposed to pass. Its the least you can do.....


 :laughing: I like that.


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## OlSparky85

Whoa hold on there cowgirl I never said I knew everything I said I know as much as my boss and that's because he's a great teacher with 8 years of experience with his own company Im still growing and I feel like Im growing more by doing side jobs and being my own boss....by the way Im always upfront about not having a license or insurance and make them sign a waiver.


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## OlSparky85

And this is a race it's either me or you that's gonna get that job or bid and Im hungry for success


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## FrunkSlammer

I just can't figure out which banned member that is. Anyone figured it out yet?


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## CaptainSparky

Cali isn't happy with side workers maybe this will happen to OlSparky 


http://www.cslb.ca.gov/GeneralInformation/Newsroom/PressReleases/PressReleases2013/News20130830.asp


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## OlSparky85

Wow maybe you guys are right I should stop


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## OlSparky85

And I'm not a troll I'm new here....Made my point thanks


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## telsa

I can't speak to other areas of the nation, but hereabouts 'sideworkers' are so chronically dumb that they under bill themselves right out of operation.

California has that many illegal immigrants performing hack-work -- and at prices so low that they are ruinous. 

Yes, they go bust. Then they are replaced by fresh fools -- imported from Mexico -- but not always -- we get idiots from Russia, Ukraine, ... all over.

It's common to see CraigsList adverts pitching insanely low quotes and -- worst of all -- free bids from a fella that has to drive an hour each way to reach the scene of the bid. The same fella is pitching T&M -- naturally.

The deal with Mexican illegals is that they haven't a clue as to their cost of doing business. So the ONLY way they can square their accounts is by shop-lifting from Big Box Hardware. It takes 'free materials' for them to stay afloat.

{ Other visits to construction sites round out their purchase order techniques. } 

When the fella (inevitably) gets busted... it's three hots and a cot courtesy of the California taxpayers... then a free ride to the border.

And another dope replaces him. 

They learn their craft skills working for Big Tract Developer. In California EVERY Big Tract Developer is scandalously using illegal immigrant labor -- usually for every single task on the project. 

Yes, it's true; when ICE shows up -- tools fly to the ground -- and every human in sight flees. The sole and only American citizen on the site is the Big Tract Developer's superintendent. 

As you might imagine, the IBEW has entirely given up on organizing these clowns: no craft skills, too much turnover, even DAS cards are a joke to these fellas.

Side jobs are great. 

Just don't figure on making any _money_ if the side job is an _electrical_ side job.

If _money_ is what you want, then you're much better off panhandling. 

In California that takes two forms: gold panning public rivers -- or using false ID at the welfare office. 

{ This is where and when your street Spanish/ Mexican comes into play. 

Just remember your opener: " My name is _José Jiménez_..." 

Your fall back alias is '*Sancho*.' } 

[ This'll get you a reputation as a real ladies' man; often essential as the welfare system is run by overweight women. ]


----------



## macmikeman

telsa said:


> I can't speak to other areas of the nation, but hereabouts 'sideworkers' are so chronically dumb that they under bill themselves right out of operation.
> 
> California has that many illegal immigrants performing hack-work -- and at prices so low that they are ruinous.
> 
> Yes, they go bust. Then they are replaced by fresh fools -- imported from Mexico -- but not always -- we get idiots from Russia, Ukraine, ... all over.
> 
> It's common to see CraigsList adverts pitching insanely low quotes and -- worst of all -- free bids from a fella that has to drive an hour each way to reach the scene of the bid. The same fella is pitching T&M -- naturally.
> 
> The deal with Mexican illegals is that they haven't a clue as to their cost of doing business. So the ONLY way they can square their accounts is by shop-lifting from Big Box Hardware. It takes 'free materials' for them to stay afloat.
> 
> { Other visits to construction sites round out their purchase order techniques. }
> 
> When the fella (inevitably) gets busted... it's three hots and a cot courtesy of the California taxpayers... then a free ride to the border.
> 
> And another dope replaces him.
> 
> They learn their craft skills working for Big Tract Developer. In California EVERY Big Tract Developer is scandalously using illegal immigrant labor -- usually for every single task on the project.
> 
> Yes, it's true; when ICE shows up -- tools fly to the ground -- and every human in sight flees. The sole and only American citizen on the site is the Big Tract Developer's superintendent.
> 
> As you might imagine, the IBEW has entirely given up on organizing these clowns: no craft skills, too much turnover, even DAS cards are a joke to these fellas.
> 
> Side jobs are great.
> 
> Just don't figure on making any _money_ if the side job is an _electrical_ side job.
> 
> If _money_ is what you want, then you're much better off panhandling.
> 
> In California that takes two forms: gold panning public rivers -- or using false ID at the welfare office.
> 
> { This is where and when your street Spanish/ Mexican comes into play.
> 
> Just remember your opener: " My name is _José Jiménez_..."
> 
> Your fall back alias is '*Sancho*.' }
> 
> [ This'll get you a reputation as a real ladies' man; often essential as the welfare system is run by overweight women. ]



Haters going hate


----------



## FaultCurrent

telsa said:


> I can't speak to other areas of the nation, but hereabouts 'sideworkers' are so chronically dumb that they under bill themselves right out of operation.
> 
> California has that many illegal immigrants performing hack-work -- and at prices so low that they are ruinous.
> 
> Yes, they go bust. Then they are replaced by fresh fools -- imported from Mexico -- but not always -- we get idiots from Russia, Ukraine, ... all over.
> 
> It's common to see CraigsList adverts pitching insanely low quotes and -- worst of all -- free bids from a fella that has to drive an hour each way to reach the scene of the bid. The same fella is pitching T&M -- naturally.
> 
> The deal with Mexican illegals is that they haven't a clue as to their cost of doing business. So the ONLY way they can square their accounts is by shop-lifting from Big Box Hardware. It takes 'free materials' for them to stay afloat.
> 
> { Other visits to construction sites round out their purchase order techniques. }
> 
> When the fella (inevitably) gets busted... it's three hots and a cot courtesy of the California taxpayers... then a free ride to the border.
> 
> And another dope replaces him.
> 
> They learn their craft skills working for Big Tract Developer. In California EVERY Big Tract Developer is scandalously using illegal immigrant labor -- usually for every single task on the project.
> 
> Yes, it's true; when ICE shows up -- tools fly to the ground -- and every human in sight flees. The sole and only American citizen on the site is the Big Tract Developer's superintendent.
> 
> As you might imagine, the IBEW has entirely given up on organizing these clowns: no craft skills, too much turnover, even DAS cards are a joke to these fellas.
> 
> Side jobs are great.
> 
> Just don't figure on making any _money_ if the side job is an _electrical_ side job.
> 
> If _money_ is what you want, then you're much better off panhandling.
> 
> In California that takes two forms: gold panning public rivers -- or using false ID at the welfare office.
> 
> { This is where and when your street Spanish/ Mexican comes into play.
> 
> Just remember your opener: " My name is _José Jiménez_..."
> 
> Your fall back alias is '*Sancho*.' }
> 
> [ This'll get you a reputation as a real ladies' man; often essential as the welfare system is run by overweight women. ]


This is kinda like the Donald Trump of electricians....a lot of truth in what is said but a lot of general hate.

No question he is absolutely right on one thing. The residential world of apartment , SFD and tract home building is 99% done by unskilled workers of every kind. Many are paid under the table in cash. The contractor cheats the workers and the gov't. 

But who is to blame for the China Depot or Lo's hiring hall? The poor bast**ds trying to eke out a living or the cheapskates who hire them?


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## MDShunk

telsa said:


> I can't speak to other areas of the nation, but hereabouts 'sideworkers' are so chronically dumb that they under bill themselves right out of operation.
> 
> California has that many illegal immigrants performing hack-work -- and at prices so low that they are ruinous.
> 
> Yes, they go bust. Then they are replaced by fresh fools -- imported from Mexico -- but not always -- we get idiots from Russia, Ukraine, ... all over.
> 
> It's common to see CraigsList adverts pitching insanely low quotes and -- worst of all -- free bids from a fella that has to drive an hour each way to reach the scene of the bid. The same fella is pitching T&M -- naturally.
> 
> The deal with Mexican illegals is that they haven't a clue as to their cost of doing business. So the ONLY way they can square their accounts is by shop-lifting from Big Box Hardware. It takes 'free materials' for them to stay afloat.
> 
> { Other visits to construction sites round out their purchase order techniques. }
> 
> When the fella (inevitably) gets busted... it's three hots and a cot courtesy of the California taxpayers... then a free ride to the border.
> 
> And another dope replaces him.
> 
> They learn their craft skills working for Big Tract Developer. In California EVERY Big Tract Developer is scandalously using illegal immigrant labor -- usually for every single task on the project.
> 
> Yes, it's true; when ICE shows up -- tools fly to the ground -- and every human in sight flees. The sole and only American citizen on the site is the Big Tract Developer's superintendent.
> 
> As you might imagine, the IBEW has entirely given up on organizing these clowns: no craft skills, too much turnover, even DAS cards are a joke to these fellas.
> 
> Side jobs are great.
> 
> Just don't figure on making any _money_ if the side job is an _electrical_ side job.
> 
> If _money_ is what you want, then you're much better off panhandling.
> 
> In California that takes two forms: gold panning public rivers -- or using false ID at the welfare office.
> 
> { This is where and when your street Spanish/ Mexican comes into play.
> 
> Just remember your opener: " My name is _José Jiménez_..."
> 
> Your fall back alias is '*Sancho*.' }
> 
> [ This'll get you a reputation as a real ladies' man; often essential as the welfare system is run by overweight women. ]



You're not permitted to contract in California yourself, so I'm not sure what the issue is?


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## telsa

MDShunk said:


> You're not permitted to contract in California yourself, so I'm not sure what the issue is?


Huh?


----------



## MDShunk

telsa said:


> Huh?


The CSLB says you haven't had a bond/insurance on file for a few years.


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## RIVETER

Amish Electrician said:


> Having just seen a thread on this topic 'go south,' I still think it's a good idea to explain to eager youngsters whay doing little jobs on the side is a bad idea.
> 
> First off, can the cant that 'everyone does/did it.' Not true - and even if so, that doesn't make it right. Maybe your fellow apprentices drag race in the streets and smoke dope- does that give you the right to join them?
> 
> Now, for the side work itself .... two perspectives to consider: the contractor's and the customer's.
> 
> The contractor has plenty of expenses. Everything from the store of parts on the truck to paying various licenses - AND your apprenticeship. The contractor has the experience to know that jobs almost never are as straightforward as they seem. If you're charging less than a 'real' contractor, it's because there are expenses you're not paying. Either you're getting these things covered by someone else, or you're subsidizing the customer.
> 
> Tell me ... who is better able to pay for these things? You- or the customer? Which of you has the nicer house and car?
> 
> Why does the customer want you? Because he associates you with a real contractor. It's only right that the real contractor get the job; you're representing him.
> 
> There's a reason the work 'customer' begins with the word 'cuss.' All these folks who are crying 'too expensive' are looking for a free ride, for someone else to subsidize them, some fool to listen to their whine. Heck, if you offered to do it for free, they'd ask you to pay them instead. The same folks who cry about $100 to add a receptacle will happily spend $1000 to get just the right marble for the countertop.
> 
> They ask for sympathy, give them a dictionary and directions. Look right between shoot and syphylis, tell them- that's where you find sympathy. You deserve respect, and they're not giving you any ... just buttering you up with flattery.
> 
> I've seen far too many 'poor old ladies on fixed incomes' whose monthly income was triple mine. I've seen far too many folks living in mean circumstances who turned out to have plenty of cash. Fact is, there's no guarantee that only 'nice' folks grow to be 'old.'
> 
> Another problem is that many oldsters are locked into the pricing of their youth, and expect a new car to cost $1000.
> 
> Finally, there are the simple crooks, those who deliberately seek out unlicensed guys- so as to mess with them. No need to pay if you're not licensed. Etc. These guys have the scam down to an art.
> 
> Oh, that's too much. Someone else said they'd do it for half. Etc. Sure they did. If "Joe" will do it for less, then let "Joe" do it. You're being played.
> 
> "I'll give you lots of work." Sure you will. Why should I lose money to you twice? More importantly, I have NEVER seen ANY future work from anyone who ever used that line .... even if I was already doing a job for them. Might as well end the relationship right there.


Can you tell me where I can get a bed, and a table and chairs built cheaply?


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## 480sparky

RIVETER said:


> Can you tell me where I can get a bed, and a table and chairs built cheaply?


http://www.ikea.com/us/en/


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## RIVETER

480sparky said:


> http://www.ikea.com/us/en/


You did not get my "entandre"?


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## Elephante

I love doing side work..I make more per hour...no brainer


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## MTW

Side work is a great idea, particularly since licenses are artificial barriers to doing electrical work. :thumbsup:


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## RIVETER

brian john said:


> I never did. The side work I did and there were less than a handful were for relatives and one time a friend. Maybe 5 side jobs total.


So, you are admitting that you DID?


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## mapmd

What if you have an employer who is perfectly find with you doing side work as long as you aren't doing it for existing/regular customers and it doesn't affect your job when you show up to work?

Or you have an employer who is perfectly fine with your asking permission beforehand, or with you saying that you "can't work a Saturday because you have a side job?"


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## pete87

If you have side work ... you are working too much .





Pete


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## lighterup

I am self employed and..I get the .." do you do side work?" ..question 
all the time and I respond ..why , yes as a matter of fact I do. I then 
go and bid the work just as I would any other job..sometimes I get the 
job , sometimes I don't.


----------

