# Union vs Non



## ideal1 (Aug 3, 2008)

I had a few questions, I am currently a non-union contractor.

I am seriously thinking about takeing my shop union. I’ve meet with the local BA. I was just looking for some different points of view.

I’ve been in business for 9 profitable years. My shop is smaller 4 to 6 guys. I own a lot of tools, gang boxes, ect all the stuff to do it right.

A large part of my business is prevailing wage work so the labor dollar stays all most the same. Or I could even save some by using apprentices….whatever.

From what I understand I’d start out on book 4 then every 2000 hours or so they’d move me up through book 3, book 2 and so on.

I’m thinking about taking two of my employees with me, one is JW quality the other might have to test in as a second or third year apprentice. How would that work, would those two guys get to stay with me, or do they just get put in the referral system? If they stay with me and lets say we didn’t work the month of January could they sit at home or would they be required to go to the halls referral system? Could I get them back?

Also I was wondering how I’d be looked at would being non then going union would that have any impact on how IBEW electricians off the books would work on my jobs?

How are small contractors with “short calls” viewed by the IBEW electricians on book 1. What I’m getting at is there are a lot of big huge union electrical contractors in my area with long calls. Am I going to have to hear about how my short call screwed up the IBEW electricians shot at the long call? Will guys be reasonably productive on short calls? Please don’t miss understand this one, I run a pretty laid back pace on my jobs, but if you get somebody with a bad attitude that can really mess things up. Also looks bad to the customer.

Are there many small (four to six man) union electrical shops or do they all tend to be bigger? Being a smaller shop would I be at any kind of advantage or disadvantage? 


Thank you in advance for any input you might have.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

> had a few questions, I am currently a non-union contractor.
> 
> I am seriously thinking about taking my shop union. I’ve meet with the local BA. I was just looking for some different points of view.
> 
> ...




My open shop friends have a larger percentage of profit than I do for the same number of men (they charge somewhat less per hour, BUT if all your work is prevailing wage this should not be an issue. Talk to other contractors and see if the local can be a PIA to deal with, ours is very good to all parties.





> From what I understand I’d start out on book 4 then every 2000 hours or so they’d move me up through book 3, book 2 and so on.


 

Not sure what this is, BUT you have the upper hand in this barging for the best deal you can get, all rules are made to be bent.




> I’m thinking about taking two of my employees with me, one is JW quality the other might have to test in as a second or third year apprentice. How would that work, would those two guys get to stay with me, or do they just get put in the referral system? If they stay with me and lets say we didn’t work the month of January could they sit at home or would they be required to go to the halls referral system? Could I get them back?


 
Why not do all your men a favor and get then in. Some locals may move men around, here I hired all my men and accept very little to nothing from the local. Good guys work slackers are on the bench, except in slow times when even the best may find themselves at the hall.





> Also I was wondering how I’d be looked at would being non then going union would that have any impact on how IBEW electricians off the books would work on my jobs?


 
I had guys crap on me and had others welcome me with open arms.





> How are small contractors with “short calls” viewed by the IBEW electricians on book 1. What I’m getting at is there are a lot of big huge union electrical contractors in my area with long calls. Am I going to have to hear about how my short call screwed up the IBEW electricians shot at the long call? Will guys be reasonably productive on short calls? Please don’t miss understand this one, I run a pretty laid back pace on my jobs, but if you get somebody with a bad attitude that can really mess things up. Also looks bad to the customer.


 
I can say the big shops do carry advantages when it comes to getting the manpower. BUT like all things this is local dependent.





> Are there many small (four to six man) union electrical shops or do they all tend to be bigger? Being a smaller shop would I be at any kind of advantage or disadvantage?


 
Our local became contractor friendly decades ago and is small man friendly which opened the doors, there are plenty of small shops here.



Thank you in advance for any input you might have


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## ideal1 (Aug 3, 2008)

*.*

Thanks Brian John,

From what I understand you hire all your own guys? And accept none from the hall?

Another thing I was wondering about was the guys I’m going to get on short calls, are they going to be “into it” or just kinda “I have to work here until I get a good long call thing” 

Most of the jobs that I do I am there on the job all day for constant direct supervision, I’m not a jerk, my jobs have to progress so I get paid and the customer is happy enough with so we can do it again. Most of the jobs are 2 to 3 weeks.

Are the union members open to working like this or are most of those guys looking for long term work.

The BA was talking to me about being a “working owner” or something, know anything about that? I guess I can work with the tools if I have 3 or less men on the job. 

Brian John sounds like you were non and then went union, did your customers notice or even care?

Thanks again


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

ideal1 said:


> Thanks Brian John,
> 
> From what I understand you hire all your own guys? And accept none from the hall?




I hire all my own men 95% are from open shops.




> Another thing I was wondering about was the guys I’m going to get on short calls, are they going to be “into it” or just kinda “I have to work here until I get a good long call thing”


 
I have never got one guy from my local that I would ever consider employing long term, I was doing work in another jurisdiction and received some of the hardest, most cooperative men I have had the pleasure to work with.




> Most of the jobs that I do I am there on the job all day for constant direct supervision, I’m not a jerk, my jobs have to progress so I get paid and the customer is happy enough with so we can do it again. Most of the jobs are 2 to 3 weeks.





> Are the union members open to working like this or are most of those guys looking for long term work.




Different men like different things some will flock to it and other will avoid it.




> The BA was talking to me about being a “working owner” or something, know anything about that? I guess I can work with the tools if I have 3 or less men on the job.


 
I have always worked with my tools. 




> Brian John sounds like you were non and then went union, did your customers notice or even care?


 
I worked as an employee open shop then moved over after years of trying to GET IN. It was the "A" jerks that gave me a hard time (a few slackers out 200 men), I out worked them and was smarter than most of them and they tried to put road blocks in my way. But in life there are always men like this. I have been a union shop from day one.

Customers should not know are care, unless being union is a requirement the mandate as part of doing work for them.

The biggest difference, you have men that are paid good wages and have decent health insurance and retirement and your men are taken care of should you go out of business as they keep retirement and bennies when they get another job. From a owners standpoint I am still waiting for the benefits I see no difference other than GENERALLY, the best men will try to get the best py which leads them to the union. Though you can match pay and bennies. Benefits are hard to match for a small company.


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## ideal1 (Aug 3, 2008)

Dude thanks, keep you posted, man thanks, kinda nervous with my personal bills and all.

I mean money is there, jobs make profit, my customers support me thats where the money come from, so good.

And I mean alot of the jobs my customers want me to do, I dont wanta do cuz of the union and all that.

So the customer is like, man get that card, we can do alot more here. 

Thanks again......keep you posted, thanks


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Other than one customer a large telecom this has never been a concern or question that arose.

This is something you want to do because you feel it is right for your men.


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## ideal1 (Aug 3, 2008)

ya its right for me, its right for the only two people who I trust that I work with, and its right for the customers cuz they want me to take bigger jobs


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## blackhat 321 (Aug 2, 2008)

It's great to see a new contractor come in. Welcome. Dont forget the wiremans agreement is always printed in a paperback form that way it can bend . Get it HA HA. 

You're good JW guy can go with you as long as he signs and pais dues.It is in our agreement ,that you can make a foremans call for him, BY NAME so you can secure a position for him.

Don't forget no matter what rules the try and throw at you , you're makin the bacon baby,and they know it and we APPRECIATE it.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

And blackhat has the attitude that forwards the union movement. A joint venture of good contractors and good electricians.


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## ideal1 (Aug 3, 2008)

ten-four, i'll roll with it, no i'll run with it.

thanks


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