# Boss telling me(greeny) i have to work LIVE



## Cory10

Just recently got hired by a small resi contractor after killing myself for 5 months trying to find someone to take me on. 2 weeks in he's telling me that I have to work live and its part of the trade, I told him I am not comfortable with that at all being so green. He basically told me he has a stack of resumes 2 feet high waiting to replace me if its going to be a problem for me. Obviously if I had other employment prospects this wouldn't even be a topic. Do I report this guy and probably lose my job or what. I cant sit around for another 5-6 months not getting experience and hours....I understand no job is worth putting myself in a dangerous situation but its so frustrating wanting this career so bad.


Journeyman older brother in the IBEW told me to tell the guy to **** off and give him his # if he wants to discuss it with me further.


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## Monkeyboy

Is it worth it too get severe burns? Is it worth it to die? Would your family think it's worth it? If you have to move on its better than being in a burn ward.


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## Speedy Petey

Cory10 said:


> Just recently got hired by a small resi contractor after killing myself for 5 months trying to find someone to take me on. *2 weeks in he's telling me that I have to work live and its part of the trad*e, I told him I am not comfortable with that at all being so green. *He basically told me he has a stack of resumes 2 feet high waiting to replace me if its going to be a problem for me*.


Yes, it's part of the trade for some, but for a 2-week newbie it is NOT AT ALL even a consideration.

If he did say that to you about the resumes then it pretty much proves what an absolute prick this guy must be. I'd do what ever you can to stay employed, but look for another job in the meantime. This is NOT a guy you want to learn the trade from.


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## dawgs

Take the advice stated by your brother. Then take a job doing whatever for the time being until you get another electrical job.

Your brother is in the IBEW and can't get you in?


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## Cory10

dawgs said:


> Take the advice stated by your brother. Then take a job doing whatever for the time being until you get another electrical job.
> 
> Your brother is in the IBEW and can't get you in?


I'm in the stack of applicants that have family members in the union, apparently our local has 30-40 guys on the list waiting to get back to work and another 25-30 from the union school approved for hire. I took the Pre App course at BCIT not the union. Been on the list 6 months now and heard nothing.


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## chicken steve

go here Cory

~CS~


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## glen1971

Cory - what year of an apprentice are you? I think your boss is being an a$$ and I'm guessing he is using the down turn in the economy to instill some fear in some of his workers. 
It's up to you what you work on live, and if your safety is in jeopardy.. There is this little piece of legislation called "the right to refuse unsafe work"...


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## telsa

His "stack of resumes" is no more than a few Scotch Post It notes.

WHAT A BLOWHARD.

As to working live...

What exactly does that entail ?

Just kill the circuits you're working on and in the box... and...

At less than six-months in -- you should never be working in a live panel.

Working with live trimmings is insane -- it's slow -- it tends to back-fire // blow up.

Are you sure he didn't say work alive?

I have to ask, 'cause some of my apprentices were so slow we had to wake them up -- even entertain them.

:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## Southeast Power

I just saw a very good friend of mine. He has a melon color to him. Usually I see that in guys that have had a heart attach or a weak heart.
He was such a bull back in the day.

He took a hit, not his fault, just up in a ceiling working like he was supposed to.
Someone demo a fixture and left the whip without wirenuts on the stripped ends of the conductors.
The touched his left shoulder and traveled through his chest and out right elbow.
That was an accident and he was a very well experienced electrician at the time.
The shock deformed one of his heart valves. He didn't know about it for quire some time.
He had some surgery but will never be the same.

It can happen just that fast and, he knew everything to watch out for.

It doesn't take so much time to turn off circuit that your boss will go broke.
I would move on and not try to educate him.
Let him terminate you for not working hot. That will be interesting.


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## macmikeman

It's Canada. I should think that they would shut the whole Province down for you in the name of safety. Take your steel toed boot and kick the guy in his nuts with it. Then ask him how that felt.


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## redblkblu

I usually manage to blow something up once or twice a year. It keeps me on my toes. I concur with kicking the guy in the nuts though. Gotta change a plug....call hydro to pull the cut outs and yank the meter EVERY time.


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## ELECTRICK2

Cory10 said:


> I'm in the stack of applicants that have family members in the union, apparently our local has 30-40 guys on the list waiting to get back to work and another 25-30 from the union school approved for hire. I took the Pre App course at BCIT not the union. Been on the list 6 months now and heard nothing.


It's your responsibility to refuse unsafe work. 
That being said, your situation sucks.
Don't think he'd flat out fire you though, it would be a $hit storm for him if you reported him for firing you unfairly.
Which you should do if it happens.
He'd prolly try the laid off due to lack of work thing.
Then he'd hire someone else.
Then it gets complicated.
Read your rights/responsibilities on the site chicken steve sent you.

As stated in previous posts he needs/deserves a kick in the balls.


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## wcord

Your boss is an idiot!
2-304 (1) No repairs or alterations shall be carried out on any live equipment except where complete disconnection of the equipment is not feasible.
Appendix B goes on to explain that in some situations, such as trouble shooting, the equipment can be live.
We dont let our apprentices work on anything live but we show them how it must be done. inevitably the day comes when working live is going to happen, and the man who has never been shown how to work safely, will be dead!

You state that if you complain or report him, you will be unemployed. Well, if you work for him under his rules, even worse than unemployed, you will be dead, or permanently injured which could be a living hell.


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## ND80

If you are not comfortable doing something then don't do it. Its not worth getting hurt or worse over.

Its that simple if you get fired then you are better off in the long run.


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## AK_sparky

Shut down the circuit, do your work.

If he says anything again, *be respectful*, and tell him that you will not be working live.

If he lets you work safely but rides you for it, whatever, as long you get your hours; work on finding another job.

If he fires you, report him. Report him for working live and making you work live, and report him for wrongful dismissal. Employers like that need to be dealt with for everyone else's sake.


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## LGLS

Cory10 said:


> Just recently got hired by a small resi contractor after killing myself for 5 months trying to find someone to take me on. 2 weeks in he's telling me that I have to work live and its part of the trade, I told him I am not comfortable with that at all being so green. He basically told me he has a stack of resumes 2 feet high waiting to replace me if its going to be a problem for me. Obviously if I had other employment prospects this wouldn't even be a topic. Do I report this guy and probably lose my job or what. I cant sit around for another 5-6 months not getting experience and hours....I understand no job is worth putting myself in a dangerous situation but its so frustrating wanting this career so bad.
> 
> 
> Journeyman older brother in the IBEW told me to tell the guy to **** off and give him his # if he wants to discuss it with me further.


Before OSHA regulations became strictly followed on IBEW jobs, guys who were pissed about being asked to work live (usually because shutting down the circuit meant FINDING it and INCONVENIENCING the customer, both considered money losers) would simply "mistakenly" short out the circuit purposely anyway. 

You can have your older brother IBEW journeyman explain how to do this the safest and quickest way possible.


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## 211mike70

As a first year apprentice I am doing pretty much everything the Journeymen are, except tying off into live panels. They only do that if it is a major hassle to kill the main, i.e. commercial site that cannot shut down, and then we work real slow and real careful.


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## Judoka

Well, if the guy pulls permits ( hopefully he does )...call the ESA inspector and explain your concerns. If by chance the inspector showed up on the jobsite and was " randomly checking contractors " to ensure no live work was being done....that could clarify things. Guy sounds like a moron to tell you the truth.


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## Ontario

I have worked live during my apprenticeship. Everything from 120 V to 600 V. I am now a Jman. Let me tell you that what he's making you do is wrong.

This is not a skill that can be learned during your first year. Regardless, this is a skill that MUST be learned sooner or later. Just make sure you are under the direct supervision of a Journeyman, are not working on anything over 120V and are doing everything you can to prevent personal injury. 

I have my own apprentice now and he has learned how to work live (it is imperative to learn this skill). It took 7 months to teach him how electricity behaves but now he is cautious around live wires and has learned to respect the power. Number one rule: if you don't need to work live, don't do it. Number two rule: if you want to become an electrician, learning how to work live is a good skill.


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## ELECTRICK2

Ontario said:


> I have worked live during my apprenticeship. Everything from 120 V to 600 V. I am now a Jman. Let me tell you that what he's making you do is wrong.
> 
> This is not a skill that can be learned during your first year. Regardless, this is a skill that MUST be learned sooner or later. Just make sure you are under the direct supervision of a Journeyman, are not working on anything over 120V and are doing everything you can to prevent personal injury.
> 
> I have my own apprentice now and he has learned how to work live (it is imperative to learn this skill). It took 7 months to teach him how electricity behaves but now he is cautious around live wires and has learned to respect the power. Number one rule: if you don't need to work live, don't do it. Number two rule: if you want to become an electrician, learning how to work live is a good skill.


Learning how to work live is a good skill? Don't get me wrong, most electricians have done it, myself included.
That was back in the day. 347/600? that's zero energy time. It's nasty.
Do not teach your apprentice that if he's careful he can work with 347 live.


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## 51360

Ontario said:


> I have worked live during my apprenticeship. Everything from 120 V to 600 V. I am now a Jman. Let me tell you that what he's making you do is wrong.
> 
> This is not a skill that can be learned during your first year. Regardless, this is a skill that MUST be learned sooner or later. Just make sure you are under the direct supervision of a Journeyman, are not working on anything over 120V and are doing everything you can to prevent personal injury.
> 
> I have my own apprentice now and he has learned how to work live (it is imperative to learn this skill). It took 7 months to teach him how electricity behaves but now he is cautious around live wires and has learned to respect the power. Number one rule: if you don't need to work live, don't do it. Number two rule:* if you want to become an electrician, learning how to work live is a good skill*.


The most important skill an apprentice, licensed electrician, including us old timers who have worked live in the past, need to learn is how to test that circuits are NOT live, disconnect and lock out, using CSA Z-462 and other appropriate safeguards. 

It is very, very, very rare that we ever need to work live. Plus, it is a CEC violation to do so, unless you absolutely must.

Your boss, or whomever else like your journeyman, asking you to do so, is NOT acceptable. 

Borgi


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## Ink&Brass

ELECTRICK2 said:


> Learning how to work live is a good skill? Don't get me wrong, most electricians have done it, myself included.
> That was back in the day. 347/600? that's zero energy time. It's nasty.
> Do not teach your apprentice that if he's careful he can work with 347 live.


Yikes. I'm guilty of snapping in the occasional breaker live, but like hell would I start pulling apart a box full of 347 energized. 

At 25 and leaving the army for a "safer" job in electrical, I'm rapidly starting to lose my feeling of youthful invincibility that I once had. :laughing:

EDIT: This is my 347th post. Illuminati confirmed.


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## chicken steve

I don't think most noobs are aware they're working on a _bomb_ hot....~CS~


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## ELECTRICK2

chicken steve said:


> I don't think most noobs are aware they're working on a _bomb_ hot....~CS~


Had a contactor fail on a 347V lighting circuit. No big deal, shut it down, bypass contactor and order a new one. I was out of town when the new contactor showed up. Guy installs new contactor and energizes the circuit. BOOM! The power of the blast bent the cover of the 12X12 jb. Not one of the flat ones either. 
They, for some reason ,thought the contactor was bad. De-energized everything, bypassed it and turned the breaker on again. Nobody pulled out a meter or FK all. BOOM!

The guy who changed the contactor has a new respect for 347/600.


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## pete87

Don't use your teeth dude ... The fillings in your teeth will result in

an ATOMIC REACTION .



When your comfy ... tackle it .




Pete


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## chrisfnl

I know it's easy to say when I'm not the one who spent 6 months looking for a job...

I'd be more concerned about the "stack of resumes 2 feet high" comment from the original journeyman...

Any time someone makes a threat about how easy you are to replace, it's because they view you as disposable... They're not people you want to be working for. 

Safety, employment stability, and career development don't even register on your employer mind if they view you as disposable.

I realize it doesn't help in the short term, but these employers very often end up screwing themselves in the long run with this attitude... I worked on a drill rig where they made the same threat... So half the crew got up and quit. Turns out they didn't actually have a stack of resumes... Ended up spending a fortune replacing them.


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## modified electric

Always always test all wires in a box or light ect. Long story I was replacing a light that used to be an em light it had a second source of power I did not realize that. I grabbed the live hot wire with one hand while I was holding the neutral with the other I ended up in the er.


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## donaldelectrician

modified electric said:


> Always always test all wires in a box or light ect. Long story I was replacing a light that used to be an em light it had a second source of power I did not realize that. I grabbed the live hot wire with one hand while I was holding the neutral with the other I ended up in the er.




Always work so Hot to Neutral/Ground Passes through Hand or fingers .

NOT BODY .

After a while it will become second nature and you will work like that 

automatic very safe to do .

All sparkys should be taught so .



Safety
Don


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## modified electric

I have been doing that for a while the issue happened years ago

Sent from my SCH-S968C using Tapatalk


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## ce2two

Cory10 said:


> Just recently got hired by a small resi contractor after killing myself for 5 months trying to find someone to take me on. 2 weeks in he's telling me that I have to work live and its part of the trade, I told him I am not comfortable with that at all being so green. He basically told me he has a stack of resumes 2 feet high waiting to replace me if its going to be a problem for me. Obviously if I had other employment prospects this wouldn't even be a topic. Do I report this guy and probably lose my job or what. I cant sit around for another 5-6 months not getting experience and hours....I understand no job is worth putting myself in a dangerous situation but its so frustrating wanting this career so bad.
> 
> 
> Journeyman older brother in the IBEW told me to tell the guy to **** off and give him his # if he wants to discuss it with me further.


If this moron wants me to work it hot, i will work very cautiously, take the time not to get shocked .


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## SdCountySparky

Nfpa70e


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## modified electric

SdCountySparky said:


> Nfpa70e


The problem is a lot of small companies don't know about this or they don't care


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## macmikeman

I don't trust lockout tagout on big jobs or industrial settings, especially military industrial settings. I know they have all come a long way, but I still wrap chains around busbars once I de-energize the other end at the feed. Let that bastard go up in smoke, not me....


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## gnuuser

macmikeman said:


> I don't trust lockout tagout on big jobs or industrial settings, especially military industrial settings. I know they have all come a long way, but I still wrap chains around busbars once I de-energize the other end at the feed. Let that bastard go up in smoke, not me....



we use loto not just on electric but access to the panels as well
(or otherwise controlled)
working on a spray hood once i wrapped the jcord around my leg and put the plug beneath my leg 
smart @ss forman chewed me out about loto
i told him read the loto card (otherwise controlled) he said what if i plugged that cord in?

i said to do that you would have to be groping for the plug around my @$$
that would result in you getting decked but good because only my wife has the right to be playing around with my @$$:laughing:


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## NC Plc

The day I am told to work live is the day I quit and drop applications.


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## David C

I've been doing several residential splice taps above and inside the meter box, when working with my boss (master electrician). Whenever I don't feel safe about it, I let him know and he simply tell me to take a step back and watch how he does it. Never once he done anything unsafe or forced me to do so, and he always took the time to make sure I was safe and to explain how the electricity flows and how to handle the hot, neutral and ground in the different situations. Yet, it is still dangerous and requires a high level of awareness, no matter how trained you are. I'm glad to be learning how to do live work, but I'm also glad that I'm not the one having to do it. Worst we did so far was service call on a rainy morning that had us redo the main service taps on a rooftop, live (meter was pulled out, no load), and also replace the meter jaws live. My other journeyman also is very at ease working in a live breaker panel and handling live taps and splices, and he shows a great deal of awareness and understanding of how electricity works.

If they didn't took the time to explain and make sure I was understanding how they do it, I wouldn't be willing to assist them in those jobs. It makes a big difference when your boss/jman cares about your safety and your apprenticeship of the trade.


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## MechanicalDVR

David C said:


> I've been doing several residential splice taps above and inside the meter box, when working with my boss (master electrician). Whenever I don't feel safe about it, I let him know and he simply tell me to take a step back and watch how he does it. Never once he done anything unsafe or forced me to do so, and he always took the time to make sure I was safe and to explain how the electricity flows and how to handle the hot, neutral and ground in the different situations. Yet, it is still dangerous and requires a high level of awareness, no matter how trained you are. I'm glad to be learning how to do live work, but I'm also glad that I'm not the one having to do it. Worst we did so far was service call on a rainy morning that had us redo the main service taps on a rooftop, live (meter was pulled out, no load), and also replace the meter jaws live. My other journeyman also is very at ease working in a live breaker panel and handling live taps and splices, and he shows a great deal of awareness and understanding of how electricity works.
> 
> If they didn't took the time to explain and make sure I was understanding how they do it, I wouldn't be willing to assist them in those jobs. It makes a big difference when your boss/jman cares about your safety and your apprenticeship of the trade.


One question: is the live work you are doing worth losing your life over? It only takes one mishap!


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## TheLivingBubba

David C said:


> I've been doing several residential splice taps above and inside the meter box, when working with my boss (master electrician). Whenever I don't feel safe about it, I let him know and he simply tell me to take a step back and watch how he does it. Never once he done anything unsafe or forced me to do so, and he always took the time to make sure I was safe and to explain how the electricity flows and how to handle the hot, neutral and ground in the different situations. Yet, it is still dangerous and requires a high level of awareness, no matter how trained you are. I'm glad to be learning how to do live work, but I'm also glad that I'm not the one having to do it. Worst we did so far was service call on a rainy morning that had us redo the main service taps on a rooftop, live (meter was pulled out, no load), and also replace the meter jaws live. My other journeyman also is very at ease working in a live breaker panel and handling live taps and splices, and he shows a great deal of awareness and understanding of how electricity works.
> 
> If they didn't took the time to explain and make sure I was understanding how they do it, I wouldn't be willing to assist them in those jobs. It makes a big difference when your boss/jman cares about your safety and your apprenticeship of the trade.


Tons of us can do live work on this board, however 99% of the time it is not necessary. Look into taking a basic NFPA 70E course. Not going to lie, I've done live work, but looking back there was no need to and going forward will try and avoid it whenever possible.


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## David C

MechanicalDVR said:


> One question: is the live work you are doing worth losing your life over? It only takes one mishap!


It's never worth getting injured (deadly or not) over your work. That's why we always try our best to work and manage our workplace to be as safe as possible. I never hesitate to second guess my boss or jman whenever he's requiring my assistance for handling live components (like when we do H-Taps) or going up ladders, etc when I am not fully understanding the situation and how we are about to proceed. We all try to avoid working around exposed energized components whenever possible.

I was just stating that in my case, I'm lucky that I'm being taught about how to properly do live work instead of being forced to do so, and by competent electricians who have a very deep understanding of the subject.


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## 99cents

David C said:


> It's never worth getting injured (deadly or not) over your work. That's why we always try our best to work and manage our workplace to be as safe as possible. I never hesitate to second guess my boss or jman whenever he's requiring my assistance for handling live components (like when we do H-Taps) or going up ladders, etc when I am not fully understanding the situation and how we are about to proceed. We all try to avoid working around exposed energized components whenever possible.
> 
> I was just stating that in my case, I'm lucky that I'm being taught about how to properly do live work instead of being forced to do so, and by competent electricians who have a very deep understanding of the subject.


Phone the utility for a disconnect. What these people are doing is WRONG.

Besides the obvious safety issues, if you knock out utility equipment, you have a lot of explaining to do and a big bill to pay.


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## Frank Mc

Hi Guys

Back in the early seventies when i started my apprenticeship we were taught 
"this is how you work when having to work live"....so for many years after working live was part of the job...Today i still work live providing i feel totally comfortable with doing so....if not no way will i work live....I really worry for the young guys who come across employers who insist on working live , its a recipe for disaster....

Everybody watches for the hot wire ...be wary of the neutral wire ,esp when its used as a common neutral in a multiple hot circuit . Here in Oz you must switch all hots which use a common neutral...

Play safe
Frank


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## MechanicalDVR

David C said:


> It's never worth getting injured (deadly or not) over your work. That's why we always try our best to work and manage our workplace to be as safe as possible. I never hesitate to second guess my boss or jman whenever he's requiring my assistance for handling live components (like when we do H-Taps) or going up ladders, etc when I am not fully understanding the situation and how we are about to proceed. We all try to avoid working around exposed energized components whenever possible.
> 
> I was just stating that in my case, I'm lucky that I'm being taught about how to properly do live work instead of being forced to do so, and by competent electricians who have a very deep understanding of the subject.


You should have a full understanding of how to do it but at the same time knowing when is far more important ans when isn't daily.


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## telsa

OP:

You need to get the wax out of your ears.

The Boss said to "_*work lively*._"

If you actually work 'live' you'll be dead, ... and stink up his whole day with paperwork.


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## David C

99cents said:


> Phone the utility for a disconnect. What these people are doing is WRONG.
> 
> Besides the obvious safety issues, if you knock out utility equipment, you have a lot of explaining to do and a big bill to pay.


My boss is a master electrician (in Quebec) and has the right to remove the seal from Hydro-Quebec on meter base and other utility when needed, as well as taking out meters, redoing taps, etc. Of course he then have to fill out paperwork and such, but he's officially licensed to do this kind of work and have the training and follow-up year-round training for all of it. And I'm not doing the taps myself, I'm assisting with the procedures. No way he would sent me alone on the rooftop to redo taps or have me take in or out a meter. The most I do is hold the wires aside and hand him the tools and parts, you know, helper stuff.

I don't know how things are outside of Qc, but from what I've heard, we don't do everything the same as the rest of the country.


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## MechanicalDVR

David C said:


> My boss is a master electrician (in Quebec) and has the right to remove the seal from Hydro-Quebec on meter base and other utility when needed, as well as taking out meters, redoing taps, etc. Of course he then have to fill out paperwork and such, but he's officially licensed to do this kind of work and have the training and follow-up year-round training for all of it. And I'm not doing the taps myself, I'm assisting with the procedures. No way he would sent me alone on the rooftop to redo taps or have me take in or out a meter. The most I do is hold the wires aside and hand him the tools and parts, you know, helper stuff.
> 
> I don't know how things are outside of Qc, but from what I've heard, we don't do everything the same as the rest of the country.


But I bet electric looks for the path of least resistance to ground up there just as in the rest of the world. I also bet that whoever is in charge of safe work practices on a job like OSHA here in the states wouldn't feel the old licensed master is doing the right thing by you or in general. A good shock will electrocute you in Quebec Canada just as easily as in East Jabip India.


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## 99cents

David C said:


> I've been doing several residential splice taps above and inside the meter box, when working with my boss (master electrician). Whenever I don't feel safe about it, I let him know and he simply tell me to take a step back and watch how he does it. Never once he done anything unsafe or forced me to do so, and he always took the time to make sure I was safe and to explain how the electricity flows and how to handle the hot, neutral and ground in the different situations. Yet, it is still dangerous and requires a high level of awareness, no matter how trained you are. I'm glad to be learning how to do live work, but I'm also glad that I'm not the one having to do it. Worst we did so far was service call on a rainy morning that had us redo the main service taps on a rooftop, live (meter was pulled out, no load), and also replace the meter jaws live. My other journeyman also is very at ease working in a live breaker panel and handling live taps and splices, and he shows a great deal of awareness and understanding of how electricity works.
> 
> If they didn't took the time to explain and make sure I was understanding how they do it, I wouldn't be willing to assist them in those jobs. It makes a big difference when your boss/jman cares about your safety and your apprenticeship of the trade.


Ask your boss if you can read his copy of Z462.


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