# Pretwisting wires...



## Elephante (Nov 16, 2011)

I just started trying out the non pre-twisting method with a Ideal wire nuts...I'm actually amazed how well 14 gauge wire twist around each other. I even removed the wire nut to check if it stayed twisted and it did...I haven't tried 12 gauge wire yet... If this makes me more efficient I might just ditch the pre-twisting technique for certain splices...I wonder how long it takes to pull out your linemans and pre-twist for every splice...I say it takes 5-7 seconds to pull out your linemans, twist and put back...let's say you are roughing a house and you did 50 splices using the twisting technique in one day, you saved about six minutes...wow that is an extra six minutes I can use for trolling the internet...thanks ideal


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

Elephante said:


> I just started trying out the non pre-twisting method with a Ideal wire nuts...I'm actually amazed how well 14 gauge wire twist around each other. I even removed the wire nut to check if it stayed twisted and it did...I haven't tried 12 gauge wire yet... If this makes me more efficient I might just ditch the pre-twisting technique for certain splices...I wonder how long it takes to pull out your linemans and pre-twist for every splice...I say it takes 5-7 seconds to pull out your linemans, twist and put back...let's say you are roughing a house and you did 50 splices using the twisting technique in one day, you saved about six minutes...wow that is an extra six minutes I can use for trolling the internet...thanks ideal


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

I don't think there is a better wire connector out there than ideal tans.


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## Ninety (Jan 7, 2011)

Just imagine if you were punched in the face every time you didn't pre-twist. Would you still do it? It would take about 2 seconds each time.
If you had a house with 50 splices it would take one minute, forty seconds of punches.


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## Elephante (Nov 16, 2011)

I want to stop pre-twisting but I can't...I wonder if there is a pre-twisting anonymous support group?


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## Jhellwig (Jun 18, 2014)

If I use wire nuts I twist unless it is stranded. If you are looking to save time and still have a good connection, use wagos.


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

Elephante said:


> I want to stop pre-twisting but I can't...I wonder if there is a pre-twisting anonymous support group?


if it is just 2 wires I usually do not pre twist.


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## Elephante (Nov 16, 2011)

aftershockews said:


> if it is just 2 wires I usually do not pre twist.


 I tried 4 14s and it worked great...


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Bad connections are the better part of our biz fellas. Whatever method you advocate, take the time to do a _good_ job.

This '_seconds per install'_ doesn't fit that gig

~CS~


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## NC Plc (Mar 24, 2014)

I don't pretwist most of the time and my connections are solid. I check half of them just to be sure.

If I pretwist, it's solid.


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## Jhellwig (Jun 18, 2014)

I've seen people screw up non twisted connection and twisted connections. Seams like there are more messed up non twisted ones though.

Using the right size wire nut helps more than anything.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

So what's the consensus on making up these >>>










? ? ?


~CS~


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## NC Plc (Mar 24, 2014)

I only use those on large motors, wrapped in splicing tape then electrical tape.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Jhellwig said:


> If I use wire nuts I twist unless it is stranded. If you are looking to save time and still have a good connection, use wagos.


Not sure about the good connections with wagos part ( give it decade or so like all the backstabbed devices ).

I twist my splices.

If you are looking to save 6 minutes a day, try walking quicker :laughing:


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

chicken steve said:


> So what's the consensus on making up these >>>
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Pre twist. :whistling2::laughing:


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## Elephante (Nov 16, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> So what's the consensus on making up these >>> ? ? ? ~CS~


 some reason that pic looks beautiful....


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## sparky970 (Mar 19, 2008)

NC EET said:


> I only use those on large motors, wrapped in splicing tape then electrical tape.


:blink::no:


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## Elephante (Nov 16, 2011)

eejack said:


> Not sure about the good connections with wagos part ( give it decade or so like all the backstabbed devices ). I twist my splices. If you are looking to save 6 minutes a day, try walking quicker :laughing:


 if you walk quicker you burn more calories as result will be more tired... You can use the holy six minutes to attach some pieces of 2 by 4 s on your three and four gang boxes .


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

I never twist two or three #14 or #12 wires. I also use the Ideal Twisters and they do a good job of twisting wires.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

chicken steve said:


> So what's the consensus on making up these >>>
> 
> 
> 
> ...


A poor crimp is better than a good split bolt connection.


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## Elephante (Nov 16, 2011)

I never twist 3 number six wires...I use the lil 300 volt rated connectors too...


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

Anyone try the Gorilla wire nuts?








I bought a container considering they cost a couple of cents less per nut than Ideal.
I have not used many.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

They suck ass. A glorified cheap yellow with a rubber coating. My supplier gave me a box a awhile back and the guys wouldn't even use them. 
I am a cha


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

wendon said:


> A poor crimp is better than a good split bolt connection.


Really? Why?


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

sbrn33 said:


> They suck ass. A glorified cheap yellow with a rubber coating. My supplier gave me a box a awhile back and the guys wouldn't even use them.
> I am a cha


I kinda figured. I am not too impressed with them atm.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

sbrn33 said:


> Really? Why?


Around here anyway, split bolts are what hacksters use to hook up their own service drops. Install a set of split bolts on an over head connection that is subjected to a wide array of weather conditions and then wrap it up with some good Wal Mart tape. Why are some of my lights bright and some of them are dim???


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## NC Plc (Mar 24, 2014)

sparky970 said:


> :blink::no:


Wanna expand on that a bit, or just gonna stick to the smug emotes with no explanation?


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

wendon said:


> Around here anyway, split bolts are what hacksters use to hook up their own service drops. Install a set of split bolts on an over head connection that is subjected to a wide array of weather conditions and then wrap it up with some good Wal Mart tape. Why are some of my lights bright and some of them are dim???


Then the installer was at fault. We use split bolts on services and have had 0 failures. I have seen more failures on the POCO connections.


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## sparky970 (Mar 19, 2008)

NC EET said:


> Wanna expand on that a bit, or just gonna stick to the smug emotes with no explanation?


We are living in the 21st century. Why would you use those?


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## NC Plc (Mar 24, 2014)

sparky970 said:


> We are living in the 21st century. Why would you use those?


It was 1/0 gauge wire and it was already on the motor that was there before it in that instance, so I reused them.

I like them for large gauge wire.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

aftershockews said:


> Then the installer was at fault. We use split bolts on services and have had 0 failures. I have seen more failures on the POCO connections.


Interesting. If we have a failure, the first thing we'd probably suspect is a split bolt connection. Aluminum is the worst problem.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

I will pretwist solid but not stranded.. 
If I have a single stranded wire to add to a solid run I'll pretwist the solid and lay the stranded around it nice and snug.

As for spirit bolts, I use them all the time and have yet to have a failure of the splice. 
I did have the insulation rub off once and blow a hole thru the cover.. But since I was standing next to it when it happened, I don't count that one as a failure... It was a win win for how high I jumped as it blew..


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## sparky970 (Mar 19, 2008)

NC EET said:


> It was 1/0 gauge wire and it was already on the motor that was there before it in that instance, so I reused them.
> 
> I like them for large gauge wire.


Polaris connectors work well


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## Elephante (Nov 16, 2011)

sparky970 said:


> Polaris connectors work well


 Polaris and ilsco are great....the insulated type...


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## NC Plc (Mar 24, 2014)

sparky970 said:


> Polaris connectors work well


I'll look into them man, I am ALWAYS open to suggestions of better ways to do things.

I really like what I am seeing with these man, I'm going to go pick some up and see how well it goes when I have a job that can utilize them.


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## sparky970 (Mar 19, 2008)

NC EET said:


> I'll look into them man, I am ALWAYS open to suggestions of better ways to do things.
> 
> I really like what I am seeing with these man, I'm going to go pick some up and see how well it goes when I have a job that can utilize them.


Make sure you're using the "greys" for fine strand wire


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## NC Plc (Mar 24, 2014)

sparky970 said:


> Make sure you're using the "greys" for fine strand wire


I'll keep that in mind. I'm going to hold off on using them until I understand them very well.

I don't use anything I don't understand well, and I really like what I have seen from a quick google search about them.


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## Jhellwig (Jun 18, 2014)

Elephante said:


> Polaris and ilsco are great....the insulated type...


No they are not. They are worse than a poorly installed split bolt. 

There are also a burndy version. Where I used to work used the burndy and ilsco ones for a while. A ton of them went bad because you could never keep them tight on a hot running motor. Burndy blocks burndy up.

Split bolts on motors work great. I have never removed a bad one. They work on aluminum also if you install them right.


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## NC Plc (Mar 24, 2014)

Jhellwig said:


> No they are not. They are worse than a poorly installed split bolt.


You do not like polairs? Why not, specifically?


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

NC EET said:


> You do not like polairs? Why not, specifically?



Polaris clear taps are flimsy as hell. The plastic outer insulator is too loose around the terminal block and it gets all queered up when you're torquing on the lugs inside. I prefer burndy or ilsco


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## NC Plc (Mar 24, 2014)

That's disappointing. I want to buy a few to see what I think about them though.

ilsco just look like straight versions of polaris if I pulled up the right thing. What makes them better?


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## Jhellwig (Jun 18, 2014)

NC EET said:


> You do not like polairs? Why not, specifically?


I stated why I don't like those style of connection. Read my post.


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

Wirenuting said:


> I will pretwist solid but not stranded..
> If I have a single stranded wire to add to a solid run I'll pretwist the solid and lay the stranded around it nice and snug.
> 
> As for spirit bolts, I use them all the time and have yet to have a failure of the splice.
> I did have the insulation rub off once and blow a hole thru the cover.. But since I was standing next to it when it happened, I don't count that one as a failure... *It was a win win for how high I jumped as it blew..*


:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## NC Plc (Mar 24, 2014)

Jhellwig said:


> I stated why I don't like those style of connection. Read my post.


All you said specifically about polaris was "No they are not. They are worse than a poorly installed split bolt." That didn't give me much to go on.

You went more in depth about the other versions, not polaris. Read your own post.


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## Jhellwig (Jun 18, 2014)

NC EET said:


> All you said specifically about polaris was "No they are not. They are worse than a poorly installed split bolt." That didn't give me much to go on.
> 
> You went more in depth about the other versions, not polaris. Read your own post.


They are the same style of connections.


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## NC Plc (Mar 24, 2014)

Jhellwig said:


> They are the same style of connections.


Alright thanks, I didn't know.


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## Elephante (Nov 16, 2011)

Jhellwig said:


> No they are not. They are worse than a poorly installed split bolt. There are also a burndy version. Where I used to work used the burndy and ilsco ones for a while. A ton of them went bad because you could never keep them tight on a hot running motor. Burndy blocks burndy up. Split bolts on motors work great. I have never removed a bad one. They work on aluminum also if you install them right.


 your right on motors they probably aren't a good idea because of the vibration and constant heavy load but for small residential stuff like solar they are great just make sure you make them nice and tight and lay them in the trough without moving the wires around a lot...I also use them services for multi family homes ...


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

Elephante said:


> I just started trying out the non pre-twisting method with a Ideal wire nuts...I'm actually amazed how well 14 gauge wire twist around each other. I even removed the wire nut to check if it stayed twisted and it did...I haven't tried 12 gauge wire yet... If this makes me more efficient I might just ditch the pre-twisting technique for certain splices...I wonder how long it takes to pull out your linemans and pre-twist for every splice...I say it takes 5-7 seconds to pull out your linemans, twist and put back...*let's say you are roughing a house* and you did 50 splices using the twisting technique in one day, you saved about six minutes...wow that is an extra six minutes I can use for trolling the internet...thanks ideal


Here's my take on this.

A house is a place where people sleep with their kids dogs cats and other critters, they depend on what should be a fact that a professional wired their house to the 2014 National Electrical Code, not only that but they should also be confident that the electricians that wired their home which they paid big money for, did 100% rock solid electrical installation-----meaning that the electricians DID NOT USE DIY wiring methods that can be found on wire-nut boxes.

A Professional Electrician should practice his trade in such a way that there is no possible way that anywhere in the electrical system in a residential domicile there can be any lose connections-----not even one, because if there is one because an electrician decided to use DIY wiring methods a fire will happen and people will burn alive.

Did you wire your house?

You better start checking all the connections and splices because the guy that wired your home may have asked your question and did the DIY thing to save time---Remember, Burning to death is Final.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

Black Dog said:


> Here's my take on this.
> 
> Did you wire your house?
> 
> You better start checking all the connections and splices because the guy that wired your home may have asked your question and did the DIY thing to save time---Remember, Burning to death is Final.


I was amazed how many loose connections and splices were in my home when I had it built 18 years ago.. 
I was also surprised how much drywall mud was caked in the 1900 boxes and TW. 
Every stick of TW that penetrated into my attic rained condensation in the winter..

Some people have no pride in their work.. But I also found the developers time schedule sheet for the block. There was a $25 per day late charge for being off schedule.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Black Dog said:


> Here's my take on this.
> 
> A house is a place where people sleep with their kids dogs cats and other critters, they depend on what should be a fact that a professional wired their house to the 2014 National Electrical Code, not only that but they should also be confident that the electricians that wired their home which they paid big money for, did 100% rock solid electrical installation-----meaning that the electricians DID NOT USE DIY wiring methods that can be found on wire-nut boxes.
> 
> ...



:sleep1::sleep1::sleep1::sleep1::sleep1:


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## Elephante (Nov 16, 2011)

Black Dog said:


> Here's my take on this. A house is a place where people sleep with their kids dogs cats and other critters, they depend on what should be a fact that a professional wired their house to the 2014 National Electrical Code, not only that but they should also be confident that the electricians that wired their home which they paid big money for, did 100% rock solid electrical installation-----meaning that the electricians DID NOT USE DIY wiring methods that can be found on wire-nut boxes. A Professional Electrician should practice his trade in such a way that there is no possible way that anywhere in the electrical system in a residential domicile there can be any lose connections-----not even one, because if there is one because an electrician decided to use DIY wiring methods a fire will happen and people will burn alive. Did you wire your house? You better start checking all the connections and splices because the guy that wired your home may have asked your question and did the DIY thing to save time---Remember, Burning to death is Final.


 but they are on arc fault breakers... Whoever wired my house did everything in BX and stabbed the receptacles..I only found two bad stabs...they did a great job actually..


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## Galt (Sep 11, 2013)

For larger wires I like the H shaped compression connectors or the sleeve type. Whether pre twisting or not I think the key is paying attention to what you are doing and make sure the connections are sound.


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

MTW said:


> :sleep1::sleep1::sleep1:


:sleep1::sleep1:


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

Elephante said:


> but they are on arc fault breakers... Whoever wired my house did everything in BX and stabbed the receptacles..I only found two bad stabs...they did a great job actually..


And who is paying for the trouble shooting at the end of each job?


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)




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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

The only reason I use crimps on a service is because an H crimp is 50 cents and a split bolt is $5. 

I own the crimpers so we save a lousy $15 per service.


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

macmikeman said:


>


And!!!:blink:


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## zac (May 11, 2009)

I don't twist wires and can't stand it when I'm trouble shooting a live circuit when wires are twisted in a braid over one inch long, absolutely killing me!


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## Nuzzie (Jan 11, 2012)

why don't you guys twist stranded?


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## FrunkSlammer (Aug 31, 2013)

Twist it up and cap it with a wire nut.

or 

Don't twist whatsoever and use WAGO's. 

The end.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=im9XuJJXylw

~C:thumbup:S~


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

Why not just let the wire nut do the twisting for you? I've never got into the pre-twisting thing. I can see why you'd want to pre-twist if you were using the old style wire nuts. Just use Ideal Tan Twisters!!! And maybe this...........:whistling2:


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## 3D Electric (Mar 24, 2013)

We use these. Mainly 14 and 12 doing rough ins. Chuck one up to a m12 impact and get to work damnit!


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Nuzzie said:


> why don't you guys twist stranded?


No real need to.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

Nuzzie said:


> why don't you guys twist stranded?


I don't because they have a habit of a single wire being pulled up during a quick twist. Since pre-twisting isn't required, I let the wires pull themselves into the twist inside the wirenut. 

Pre-twisting solid is more of a left over habit from solder pot & friction tape days. 
It's how I was taught. 
But I will admit, a nice pre-twist of solid today allows someone tomorrow to remove just one wire and not loose the circuit. Keep in mind that everyone will die if you work a receptacle hot. :thumbup:


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## 3D Electric (Mar 24, 2013)

Wirenuting said:


> Keep in mind that everyone will die if you work a receptacle hot. :thumbup:


Finally someone is talking about the true dangers in our field. Caustic explosions of toxic gas and metal flying throughout the air. All caused by working on one hot receptacle. For shame all business owners. FOR SHAME! :jester:


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

3D Electric said:


> Finally someone is talking about the true dangers in our field. Caustic explosions of toxic gas and metal flying throughout the air. All caused by working on one hot receptacle. For shame all business owners. FOR SHAME! :jester:


I've gotta confess I just did one at my MOTHER'S house the other day. Mother survived the experience, I'm happy to report!


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

3D Electric said:


> Finally someone is talking about the true dangers in our field. Caustic explosions of toxic gas and metal flying throughout the air. All caused by working on one hot receptacle. For shame all business owners. FOR SHAME! :jester:


The only worse thing is people who leave the trim screw horizontal. 

Now those are folks who enjoy living on the edge.


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## 3D Electric (Mar 24, 2013)

wendon said:


> I've gotta confess I just did one at my MOTHER'S house the other day. Mother survived the experience, I'm happy to report!


You got lucky. Last time I ever heard of someone working on a hot receptacle Hiroshima happened. You think that was a nuke? Get real. It was just some poor soul who changed a duplex hot.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

3D Electric said:


> You got lucky. Last time I ever heard of someone working on a hot receptacle Hiroshima happened. You think that was a nuke? Get real. It was just some poor soul who changed a duplex hot.


You mean this could have been a picture of my mom's house?? Scary stuff!!


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

wendon said:


> You mean this could have been a picture of my mom's house?? Scary stuff!!


Since it was Halloween weekend, it would look a little different.


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## 3D Electric (Mar 24, 2013)

wendon said:


> You mean this could have been a picture of my mom's house?? Scary stuff!!


And now you know, and knowing is half the battle. GI JOE!


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

3D Electric said:


> We use these. Mainly 14 and 12 doing rough ins. Chuck one up to a m12 impact and get to work damnit!


What's the trade coming to:no:










:laughing:


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## DriveGuru (Jul 29, 2012)

NC EET said:


> I only use those on large motors, wrapped in splicing tape then electrical tape.



ALWAYS electrical tape first(reversed) then splicing tape, then electrical tape. You'll thank me when you go to cut it off


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## NC Plc (Mar 24, 2014)

DriveGuru said:


> ALWAYS electrical tape first(reversed) then splicing tape, then electrical tape. You'll thank me when you go to cut it off


Oh man, I know that what I put on there will not be coming off, it will be cut off. :laughing:

How do you feel about friction tape then splicing tape, then electrical tape?


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## DriveGuru (Jul 29, 2012)

NC EET said:


> Oh man, I know that what I put on there will not be coming off, it will be cut off. :laughing:
> 
> How do you feel about friction tape then splicing tape, then electrical tape?



I just like to have something on there other than rubber that gets gunked up in the threads, where you don't need a pry bar to get it off,lol. I suppose friction tape would work well, never tried it. Personally I use motor varnish paper, it's an epoxy dipped fiberglass, VERY high dielectric strength, very high abrasion resistance, and comes off clean as a whistle. Its similar to the old cainbrich tape, but without the sticky side. But I realize most people don't have access to it. I will normally use varnish, tape, rubber, then tape. Never had one go bad due to rubbing through, even in extreme circumstances.


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## theJcK (Aug 7, 2013)

thats like roughing in a slab.. duct tape adhesive side out first! i was proud of myself when i first figured out 5/16 deep socket would twist a tan.. then years later i see that cheap plastic adapter.. helper driving a Caddie somewhere now, i bet.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

Four $12's

Not pre twisted












Pre twisted










Not a huge difference


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

well if you read the instructions on the bag of wire nuts, they say NOT to pretwist, but when it comes to multiple wires under one nut, I hedge on twisting and I always tug on the wires after twisting to make sure they are secure...sometimes Ieven pull out the Klien's and give that nut a few more twists when my claws can't take anymore


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## Jhellwig (Jun 18, 2014)

BuzzKill said:


> well if you read the instructions on the bag of wire nuts, they say NOT to pretwist,


I haven't seen any that says not to twist. I have seen them say twisting not required if they even mention twisting.

I had a boss yell at me for twisting wires because it makes them harder to take apart. I told him to show me where it said not to twist the wires and I would stop. He walked off muttering.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

DriveGuru said:


> ALWAYS electrical tape first(reversed) then splicing tape, then electrical tape. You'll thank me when you go to cut it off


I was taught to wrap with varnish first, sticky side out. When I first started in the trade as an apprentice, they had no varnish with a sticky side. So it was always varnish first. Had no need to worry about the sticky side as there was no sticky side back then.



NC EET said:


> Oh man, I know that what I put on there will not be coming off, it will be cut off. :laughing:
> How do you feel about friction tape then splicing tape, then electrical tape?


Varnish first. Sticky side out. Then rubber, then 33, then friction. Friction always last.. This is the old fashioned way.



Jhellwig said:


> I haven't seen any that says not to twist. I have seen them say twisting not required if they even mention twisting.
> 
> I had a boss yell at me for twisting wires because it makes them harder to take apart. I told him to show me where it said not to twist the wires and I would stop. He walked off muttering.


How many times do we have to debate twisting vs not twisting?
The wirenut was invented for one reason. To eliminate the need for twisting and soldering and taping.
Now if you still use a solder pot (I hear there are a few left) then by all means twist your wires.
If you use wirenuts why do this unnecessary twisting step they were invented to eliminate?
Its would be like taping up a Polaris connector. Silly and a waste of time.


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## Jhellwig (Jun 18, 2014)

I have never seen twisted wires not go into a but right but have seen plenty of non twisted wires not go it right...


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> Its would be like taping up a Polaris connector. Silly and a waste of time.



Not really. 

Often, the cover caps fall out of the polaris connectors. :jester:

I'm usually taping them in place, especially in an underground box.


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## Mshea (Jan 17, 2011)

I always pre twised except when I put a single stranded wire to a solid or a smaller than #14 to a #14 or 12. Think fixture wires.

I never found twisting a small wire or stranded to a solid works as well as not twisting them first. Usually that resulted in the smaller wire or stranded wire to get caught in the to of the wire nut and little of the solid wire was getting under the spring.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

220/221 said:


> Not really.
> 
> Often, the cover caps fall out of the polaris connectors. :jester:
> 
> I'm usually taping them in place, especially in an underground box.


I run a bit of the matching phase tape around each.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Elephante said:


> I just started trying out the non pre-twisting method with a Ideal wire nuts...I'm actually amazed how well 14 gauge wire twist around each other. I even removed the wire nut to check if it stayed twisted and it did...I haven't tried 12 gauge wire yet... If this makes me more efficient I might just ditch the pre-twisting technique for certain splices...I wonder how long it takes to pull out your linemans and pre-twist for every splice...I say it takes 5-7 seconds to pull out your linemans, twist and put back...let's say you are roughing a house and you did 50 splices using the twisting technique in one day, you saved about six minutes...wow that is an extra six minutes I can use for trolling the internet...thanks ideal


I agree with you. My method is to start twisting my fingers slightly before contacting the tips of the evenly stripped wires.


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## cdnelectrician (Mar 14, 2008)

It all depends on the installer...I've seen horrible connections made by people that pre twist and people that do not. Myself, I prefer to pre twist whenever I have more than two solid wires, just makes installing the marrette less frustrating. 

It also depends on the brand of connector you use too. Marrette brand wire nuts SUCK, if I am forced to use them I always pre twist.


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## zac (May 11, 2009)

cdnelectrician said:


> It all depends on the installer...I've seen horrible connections made by people that pre twist and people that do not. Myself, I prefer to pre twist whenever I have more than two solid wires, just makes installing the marrette less frustrating.
> 
> It also depends on the brand of connector you use too. Marrette brand wire nuts SUCK, if I am forced to use them I always pre twist.


I will admit that until googling I had never heard or knew why you guys called wire nuts "merretts". 
O.k. The guy invented them as did crapper the toilet, but is it a Canadian thing to call them merrets?


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## cdnelectrician (Mar 14, 2008)

Yea pretty much, you don't hear the term "wire nut" very often here... The last name of the guy that invented them was Marr, I believe he was Canadian as well.

https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&sour...vp9slqON866KxeGHg&sig2=siioqUTVTZQXx224bWwlNA


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## freeagnt54 (Aug 6, 2008)

On the back of ideal red wire nuts it's says that pre-twisting is not required. If you keep reading it says if you don't pre twist you need to twist the wire nut until there are 2 visible twists in the wire below the nut.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

freeagnt54 said:


> On the back of ideal red wire nuts it's says that pre-twisting is not required. If you keep reading it says if you don't pre twist you need to twist the wire nut until there are 2 visible twists in the wire below the nut.


I didn't pretwist a pair of #12's today. 
I feel like such a hack. 
But on a good note, I twisted that nut tighter then,,,, ah never mind.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

220/221 said:


> Not really.
> 
> Often, the cover caps fall out of the polaris connectors. :jester:
> 
> I'm usually taping them in place, especially in an underground box.


I have never used a Polaris connector. My statement was from the pictures I have seen of them. :thumbsup:


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

I take my _time_ with whatever termination i deal with .

My methods are cultivated from my mentors . 

I've tried everything they throw at us from the supply side , some are better than others , but the ones that preach saving _time_ seem to have the most callbacks

~CS~


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

*Let me tell you about a place, somewhere up in New York way
Where the electricians are so gay, twistin' their wires away
Here they have a lot of fun, puttin' trouble on the run
Oh man, you'll find the old and young twistin' their wires away

They're twistin', twistin', everybody's feeling great
They're twistin', twistin', they're twistin' their wires away


Here's a hack in dirty clothes, how he got here I don't know
But man, you ought to see him go, twistin' the wires away
He's got his Twisters in a sack, he bought them off Home Depot's rack 
Oh man, there ain't nothing like twistin' the wires away
*
*They're twistin', twistin', everybody's feeling great
They're twistin', twistin', they're twistin' their wires away

*_ D{with apologies to Sam Cooke}W_


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

wendon said:


> *Let me tell you about a place, somewhere up in New York way
> Where the electricians are so gay, twistin' their wires away
> Here they have a lot of fun, puttin' trouble on the run
> Oh man, you'll find the old and young twistin' their wires away
> ...


:laughing::laughing::laughing::thumbup::thumbup:


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## NoSparkSparky (Mar 5, 2012)

i always pretwist. I strongly dislike wires twisted via wirenut. Even if they are twisted, they are not twisted very good. Ive used the wirenut, and ive twisted and twisted and twisted.. took it off.. and yes.. it was twisted.. but not nearly as good as using linemans.. Ive seen connections get pretty hot, when a stupid space heater is plugged into a recpeticle that has pigtails., Melted wirenuts anyone?


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## JDJ (Aug 9, 2011)

Had an apprentice refer to twisting as "rolling joints" , oddly enough, he was Straight Edge.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

NoSparkSparky said:


> i always pretwist. I strongly dislike wires twisted via wirenut. Even if they are twisted, they are not twisted very good. Ive used the wirenut, and ive twisted and twisted and twisted.. took it off.. and yes.. it was twisted.. but not nearly as good as using linemans.. Ive seen connections get pretty hot, when a stupid space heater is plugged into a recpeticle that has pigtails., Melted wirenuts anyone?


Why was the wirenut invented?

To eliminate the need for twisting, soldering and taping. :thumbsup:


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

I always give my wires a little linemans twist.


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## NoSparkSparky (Mar 5, 2012)

If the wires are not twisted good (and they never are if you don't pretwist) then the coil inside the nut is carrying the current or some of it. Which its NOT meant to do. I can send you some melted wirenuts if you dont belive it.


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## NoSparkSparky (Mar 5, 2012)

I have never worked with a licensed electrician that relied on the nut to twist the wires reliably


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## NC Plc (Mar 24, 2014)

NoSparkSparky said:


> I have never worked with a licensed electrician that relied on the nut to twist the wires reliably


You seem to take this issue extremely seriously. There are licensed electricians in this thread that don't pretwist.


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## NoSparkSparky (Mar 5, 2012)

Well I admit part of it is because it was drilled into my head as an apprentice. But the biggest part is what i find in the field. Upon removing a wirenut. I can tell if it was pretwisted or if the nut did it. But hey what do i know i backstab modern devices


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

NoSparkSparky said:


> I have never worked with a licensed electrician that relied on the nut to twist the wires reliably


We have never worked together.



NC EET said:


> You seem to take this issue extremely seriously. There are licensed electricians in this thread that don't pretwist.


:thumbsup: 



NoSparkSparky said:


> Well I admit part of it is because it was drilled into my head as an apprentice. But the biggest part is what i find in the field. Upon removing a wirenut. I can tell if it was pretwisted or if the nut did it. But hey what do i know i backstab modern devices


I cannot fault you for doing what you were taught.
In this business its not always about the best way, but many times it the fastest way.
The point being the intended use of wire nuts. They were invented to save time and to avoid twisting, soldering and taping.
It is this reason I don't twist.
I rewired my complete house and did not twist. Been over 15 years and not one single failure.
I did not backstab anything in my house but would in yours or Dorian's unless he told me not too. Time is the issue.


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## al_smelter (Jan 25, 2011)

NoSparkSparky said:


> If the wires are not twisted good (and they never are if you don't pretwist) then the coil inside the nut is carrying the current or some of it. Which its NOT meant to do. *I can send you some melted wirenuts if you dont belive it.*


No, you can't. Any melted wirenut you send me is the result of an incorrectly installed wirenut, twisted or not. All the spring does in a *correctly installed* nut is hold the two (or more) conductors securely together, and it will usually create its own twist. You really should make a bench connection and then cut the jacket off. It is quite revealing.

Us old timers have installed thousands upon thousands of wirenuts. Some folks pretwisted, some did not. I did not. I found it just another thing to have to do, and the manufacturer did not recommend pre-twisting anyway (and they should know how to install their own product). In thirty four years I have never lost a circuit due to a non-pre-twisted wirenut connection in stranded to stranded, solid to solid, and solid to stranded conductors. Wagos, bagos, wackos and smackos weren't invented, so they are moot to me.

There may be some new stuff out there to save time and/or money, but the wirenut is still king, and will continue to be for a long time. There are differences in quality with some inferior product brands, and I never skimped on cost. But a quality wirenut, correctly installed according to manufacturers instruction (no twist needed) will make a safe and robust connection that will outlast most all of us into retirement.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

I have let go of a number of practices that were drilled into my head over the years, and it's been for the better.

Pigtailing. This was the first to go, and I've never looked back. What a waste of time. 

Backstabbing. Big time saver. I turned my nose up at this method for years, eventually I tried it out and couldn't be happier. Wish I had done it sooner.

Pretwisting my joints. It didn't feel right to stop this at first, but like everything, I learned to trust in it and it's been another tool in my bag to getting the job done faster.

A lot of these job site practices that are drilled into guys heads get you to falsely put your faith in a method that doesn't actually accomplish anything more.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

NoSparkSparky said:


> I have never worked with a licensed electrician


Maybe you need to get a different job?


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## NoSparkSparky (Mar 5, 2012)

Meh. To each there own. I dont trust it. And really its not going to make that much faster. And according to the manufacturer of these wirenuts. You still have to pretwist for more than 2 wires


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

NoSparkSparky said:


> If the wires are not twisted good (and they never are if you don't pretwist) then the coil inside the nut is carrying the current or some of it. Which its NOT meant to do. I can send you some melted wirenuts if you dont belive it.


You can send me some melted wire nuts if you want but I still won't believe you unless they were ones I originally installed.


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## Briancraig81 (May 25, 2007)

I was helping a friend one a job awhile back, he came up on me twisting a wirenut with my side cutters on a 4wire joint and tells me to stop. I asked why, told him this is the way I was taught and had been doing it this way ever since. He said that when you twist the wirenut with pliers it weakens the spring and actually causes a bad joint. Guy who was helping us overhead or conv. and said my friend was right, that he has pulled J box covers to see a wirenut glowing because someone did that 



readydave8 said:


> You can send me some melted wire nuts if you want but I still won't believe you unless they were ones I originally installed.


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## surenoproblem (Dec 24, 2012)

I have to chime in here. I am a twister. I prefer that my copper connections don't move when the pig tail is jiggled I see the wire but as something to protect the connection from a short

Always under screws. I have replaced quite a few switches and outlets that had broken and caused a bad connection. It's nice when it's a 4 gang and I get to re make the entire box

I have seen a lot of neutrals turn gold or loose connection because they had not been secured to each other 
Always been curious how hot that wire got to get that Golden Purple color


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## GatewaySparky (Jul 23, 2010)

al_smelter said:


> No, you can't. Any melted wirenut you send me is the result of an incorrectly installed wirenut, twisted or not. All the spring does in a *correctly installed* nut is hold the two (or more) conductors securely together, and it will usually create its own twist. You really should make a bench connection and then cut the jacket off. It is quite revealing.
> .


Some of these Buchanan wire nuts that I am _forced_ to use, I don't have to cut off the plastic to see how the spring secures the wires. The plastic pops off all by itself! .

"He said that when you twist the wirenut with pliers it weakens the spring and actually causes a bad joint. "

How is this any different than twisting a wire nut with an Ideal Twist-a-nut tool?


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## freeagnt54 (Aug 6, 2008)

John Valdes said:


> Why was the wirenut invented?
> 
> To eliminate the need for twisting, soldering and taping. :thumbsup:


Twisting is still required if you follow manufacturers recommendations.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

freeagnt54 said:


> Twisting is still required if you follow manufacturers recommendations.


Twisting, maybe...pre-twisting, maybe not.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

surenoproblem said:


> I have to chime in here. I am a twister. I prefer that my copper connections don't move when the pig tail is jiggled I see the wire but as something to protect the connection from a short
> 
> Always under screws. I have replaced quite a few switches and outlets that had broken and caused a bad connection. It's nice when it's a 4 gang and I get to re make the entire box
> 
> ...


Those crazy brokens will cause a bad connection every time. Hate when that happens!


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

NoSparkSparky said:


> Meh. To each there own. I dont trust it. And really its not going to make that much faster. And according to the manufacturer of these wirenuts. You still have to pretwist for more than 2 wires





freeagnt54 said:


> Twisting is still required if you follow manufacturers recommendations.


When I trimmed out devices, I put on a nail apron, with wire nuts, a screw driver and a pair of strippers. Thats it.
Side cutters are heavy in a nail apron.

I never twisted 2, 3, 4 wires. I align the wires and/or cut them square at the end and screw on the nut.
I don't care if it twists the wires or not. All I care about is that the connection is solid.
I check each one by trying to pull the wirenut off before moving on to the next device.
There are several reasons i do not twist as you can see. Not carrying around side cutters when trimming is one of them.


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## freeagnt54 (Aug 6, 2008)

John Valdes said:


> When I trimmed out devices, I put on a nail apron, with wire nuts, a screw driver and a pair of strippers. Thats it.
> Side cutters are heavy in a nail apron.
> 
> I never twisted 2, 3, 4 wires. I align the wires and/or cut them square at the end and screw on the nut.
> ...


That's fine if it works for you. Although an inspector could put you in a tight spot if he wanted, unless the brand of wirenuts you're using say otherwise. 

I personally don't allow any guys working under me to not twist their connections, especially multi-wire branch circuits. Our schedules are already tight and we don't have time to spend days or weeks trouble shooting loose connections.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

220/221 said:


> Four $12's
> 
> Not pre twisted
> 
> ...


I would bet that both of those examples have way more bare copper than what is specified by the instructions.


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> I would bet that both of those examples have way more bare copper than what is specified by the instructions.



If by "way more" you mean 1/8" then yeah maybe. What's your point?


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

Tan twisters, the only way to go............:whistling2:

*Twister® Wire Connector*









*Features*



Exceptional wire range capacity - only three sizes to stock 
Swept-wing design for comfort and greater leverage 
Live-action, square-wire spring 
Hexagonal shape allows connectors to be applied with standard nutdriver 
*No pre-twisting required* 
UL Listed and CSA Certified 
Reusable 
Shell rated for 105° C


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## zac (May 11, 2009)

I love tanzys!


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

Clear plastic wire nuts would be kind of neat, you could inspect the connections like clear heat shrink.


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## zac (May 11, 2009)

drsparky said:


> Clear plastic wire nuts would be kind of neat, you could inspect the connections like clear heat shrink.


As long as the wires inside aren't crimped!
That is a good idea


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## Jhellwig (Jun 18, 2014)

Does anyone realize why there are wire nuts that are called twisters?


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## 3D Electric (Mar 24, 2013)

We use these. That way we don't have to carry two sizes of wire nuts. We like them.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

ponyboy said:


> If by "way more" you mean 1/8" then yeah maybe. What's your point?


I guess it is, that for things like this very few installers ever look at the instructions. There is one brand that would specify only 3/8" of bare conductor for a wire nut...that looks like almost twice that.


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> I guess it is, that for things like this very few installers ever look at the instructions. There is one brand that would specify only 3/8" of bare conductor for a wire nut...that looks like almost twice that.



Do you personally measure stripped conductor lengths to comply with the product instructions? Do you think the stripped length has any effect on a wirenuts ability to do its job? Would you or have you ever failed a job because the stripped length was 1/8-3/8" longer than it was supposed to be?


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

To twist or to not twist!

http://youtu.be/tXIBW30J1B8

It's like a Dagger in the Mind


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

ponyboy said:


> Do you personally measure stripped conductor lengths to comply with the product instructions? Do you think the stripped length has any effect on a wirenuts ability to do its job? Would you or have you ever failed a job because the stripped length was 1/8-3/8" longer than it was supposed to be?


The stripped length does not have any effect on the connection, but it does have an effect on preventing accidental contact with the bare conductors. 
I might red tag 3/8" too much.

As far as measuring it, an experience person doesn't need to do that to be within an eighth or so.


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> The stripped length does not have any effect on the connection, but it does have an effect on preventing accidental contact with the bare conductors.
> I might red tag 3/8" too much.
> 
> As far as measuring it, an experience person doesn't need to do that to be within an eighth or so.


You talking 3/8" exposed outside of the wire nut?


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

3D Electric said:


> We use these. That way we don't have to carry two sizes of wire nuts. We like them.


Garbage.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

MTW said:


> Garbage.


Seriously have you ever used them?


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## 3D Electric (Mar 24, 2013)

MTW said:


> Garbage.


We absolutely love them. Work great! Tan reds and the red yellows. Both are excellent.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

sbrn33 said:


> Seriously have you ever used them?


I have and I prefer the Ideal's over them.


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

I like the basic 3m wirenuts. Yellows, reds, and blue/greys. Does Peter like those??


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

ponyboy said:


> I like the basic 3m wirenuts. Yellows, reds, and blue/greys. Does Peter like those??


I use whatever nut is available to twist my wire. Damn that hurt.:thumbup:


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

aftershockews said:


> I use whatever nut is available to twist my wire. Damn that hurt.:thumbup:


What do you use after the first 2?

Never mind.


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## Elephante (Nov 16, 2011)

You guys are still talking about this...? Lmao


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

aftershockews said:


> You talking 3/8" exposed outside of the wire nut?


No, I am talking 3/4" stripped where the instructions call for 3/8".


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## cdnelectrician (Mar 14, 2008)

Serious business.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

ponyboy said:


> I like the basic 3m wirenuts. Yellows, reds, and blue/greys. Does Peter like those??


The R/Y's or the basic, old fashioned, original wirenuts? I like those.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

ponyboy said:


> I like the basic 3m wirenuts. Yellows, reds, and blue/greys. Does Peter like those??


I think he does. Do you like peter?


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

I like wing nuts, not wire nuts. Except the blue and orange wire nuts.


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## MadDawg (Jun 12, 2012)

+






=


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

MadDawg said:


> View attachment 39897
> +
> View attachment 39899
> =


About damn time someone thought about this.
Do you use any additional tape? Where do you get them?


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## MadDawg (Jun 12, 2012)

They are made by Burndy, they are hinged and clip together and can be re-used. I have only used them for temporary connections for special events and seasonal connections. They are hard plastic, so a few wraps of phase colo(u)r tape and good to go.

http://ecat.burndy.com/Comergent/burndy/product/SC4


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

MadDawg said:


> They are made by Burndy, they are hinged and clip together and can be re-used. I have only used them for temporary connections for special events and seasonal connections. They are hard plastic, so a few wraps of phase colo(u)r tape and good to go.
> 
> http://ecat.burndy.com/Comergent/burndy/product/SC4


Thanks. They would sure come in handy if you have to check rotation on a motor. Especially a big DC motor where swapping the leads is not an option.


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