# Veeder root trouble..



## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

te12co2w said:


> This is for a veeder root fuel tank read out. Customer says they have been having trouble with the system for several years. I don't know what kind of trouble. This is underground 1" grc from main building to above ground storage tanks and dispensers. This year they opened up the trench and we replaced the 1" and installed 3 separate runs of Beldon 8760 as per customer specs. They have high water table in the summer and frost levels to over 6' in the winter. I worry about Beldon 8760 in water, and also about what freezing water in the conduit. Beldon 8760 has 1 pair of wires covered with a foil shield. I don't think it is for use in water. I have been trying to find some kind of cable that would have 3 pairs of shielded wires in one direct bury rated cable that would fit in a 1" conduit. So far the closest I have found is a cable that has 3 pairs of wires with one foil shield around all 3 pairs. Each pair is not shielded separately. Since they are not shielded separately, could there be problems with something like this? The cable I found is 1806 or 1606 SVNTC.


Is that cable rated for wet locations?


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## Glantz496 (Apr 28, 2014)

Here take a look at this.

http://www.scpcat5e.com/bulk-cables...108/direct-burial-c-93_108_195/182shdb-p-1014

Just hooked up a Veeder Root this past summer and it called for seperate runs to each of the sensors. Besides they were not all in the same area to begin with so you'd have to splice your cabling


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

You can get tray cable with individually shielded pairs. Figure about .42"-.45" diameter.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

DO NOT try to use a multi-pair cable. 

8760 is 1980's spec. The better cable (and a lot more pricey) is the Beldon 88760 (which can be purchased cheaper in another flavor).

You should not have any splices, just the termination on the edge connector inside the VR console and the splice to the cable for the probe with the splice properly sealed with the gel packs that come with the probes. Trust me, if you splice the cable you (or someone) stand a high chance of intermittent problems down the road.


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## Glantz496 (Apr 28, 2014)

hardworkingstiff said:


> DO NOT try to use a multi-pair cable.
> 
> You should not have any splices, just the termination on the edge connector inside the VR console and the splice to the cable for the probe with the splice properly sealed with the gel packs that come with the probes. Trust me, if you splice the cable you (or someone) stand a high chance of intermittent problems down the road.



Agreed


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

IIRC veeder root uses RS485 communications.


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## te12co2w (Jun 3, 2007)

Black Dog said:


> Is that cable rated for wet locations?


 I think so. Might not use it anyway.


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## te12co2w (Jun 3, 2007)

Glantz496 said:


> Here take a look at this.
> 
> http://www.scpcat5e.com/bulk-cables...108/direct-burial-c-93_108_195/182shdb-p-1014
> 
> Just hooked up a Veeder Root this past summer and it called for seperate runs to each of the sensors. Besides they were not all in the same area to begin with so you'd have to splice your cabling


 Thanks, That does appear to fit the bill. I couldn't figure out the overall outside diameter from their data sheet though.


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## te12co2w (Jun 3, 2007)

hardworkingstiff said:


> DO NOT try to use a multi-pair cable. Cross talk?
> 
> 8760 is 1980's spec. The better cable (and a lot more pricey) is the Beldon 88760 (which can be purchased cheaper in another flavor). I will look into this.
> 
> You should not have any splices, just the termination on the edge connector inside the VR console and the splice to the cable for the probe with the splice properly sealed with the gel packs that come with the probes. Trust me, if you splice the cable you (or someone) stand a high chance of intermittent problems down the road.


 There are no splices, with the exceptions you mentioned. I haven't installed the gel packs yet, but I will. Thanks


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## te12co2w (Jun 3, 2007)

Thanks to reply #5 and 6. I would have to splice if I went to a multiconductor cable.


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## te12co2w (Jun 3, 2007)

Thanks for all the info.


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## Glantz496 (Apr 28, 2014)

te12co2w said:


> Thanks, That does appear to fit the bill. I couldn't figure out the overall outside diameter from their data sheet though.


Me neither, but being only 18/2 with shield even outdoor rated you shouldn't have a problem pulling through 1"

Good luck


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

five.five-six said:


> IIRC veeder root uses RS485 communications.


Not that it matters, but if anyone really wants to know, the guys over at a forum for petroleum guys had the question brought up to them, and the answer is


> its nothing like a industry 4-10mA standard, its a powered databus specific made for veederroot and notting else. It sends out temprature, serialnumber hights of 2 kinds of floats.
> from all the system of tank invetory i worked on vederroot is one of easy ones.


http://pei.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=20111

That was for the inventory probes, the sensors work differently. Most of the VR sensors have a 100 ohm resistance when they are in "normal" condition and a different resistance for "alarm" condition. The console monitors the probes and if one of the probes loses the 100 ohm resistance but does not get the alarm resistance reading the console displays a "probe out" alarm.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Custom protocol huh, sounds like the next veeder root we take out may need to find its way to the bench and spend some time with the scope and logic analyzer. 

We've used multi pair individual shielded TC in the past without issue.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

Jlarson said:


> Custom protocol huh, sounds like the next veeder root we take out may need to find its way to the bench and spend some time with the scope and logic analyzer.


 I hope you share your findings with us.


> We've used multi pair individual shielded TC in the past without issue.


I'm assuming you mean to VR inventory probes? How did you make your splices? Did you seal them?

Manufacturer instructions are to have no splices, and I've been behind enough problem jobs that I believe the best way to wire the inventory probes is like the manufacturer requests (no splices). Can splices be done w/out problems, of course, but all it takes is some planning to be able to do the job w/out splices.


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