# Knob and Tube



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Good stuff............:thumbup::thumbup:


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## niteshift (Nov 21, 2007)

K&T was allowed to use existing abandoned gas pipe for lighting conductors up to the new electric light when the old gas light was replaced.


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## mnelectrician (Dec 1, 2008)

niteshift said:


> K&T was allowed to use existing abandoned gas pipe for lighting conductors up to the new electric light when the old gas light was replaced.


I've never saw that but usually they put the knob and tube fed light in the same location as where the old gas light was. All that old wiring with the cloth insulation is a pain. It's usually brittle especially by lights where the heat breaks it down.


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## niteshift (Nov 21, 2007)

mnelectrician said:


> I've never saw that but usually they put the knob and tube fed light in the same location as where the old gas light was. All that old wiring with the cloth insulation is a pain. It's usually brittle especially by lights where the heat breaks it down.





Yeah how many years/decades/centuries has it been in place? 
I didn't care for it myself.


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## niteshift (Nov 21, 2007)

mnelectrician said:


> I've never saw that but usually they put the knob and tube fed light in the same location as where the old gas light was. All that old wiring with the cloth insulation is a pain. It's usually brittle especially by lights where the heat breaks it down.


Maybe 480 will put up a code book from the olden days.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

It looks to be in good condition from what I see. I bet it could be energized right now with no problems.


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

InPhase277 said:


> It looks to be in good condition from what I see. I bet it could be energized right now with no problems.




I hope you are kidding!

I do not think I would want to be responsible for that.


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## niteshift (Nov 21, 2007)

InPhase277 said:


> It looks to be in good condition from what I see. I bet it could be energized right now with no problems.


That might make a good safety video right there.


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## Bulldog1 (Oct 21, 2011)

We have a bunch of customers with k &t that is still in use. Most are old houses in the old money side of town.


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## fdew (Mar 26, 2009)

Is that wood "Wire Mold" in the 4th picture?

thanks for the pix


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

oldtimer said:


> I hope you are kidding!
> 
> I do not think I would want to be responsible for that.


I'm not kidding. Those wires are probably 8 inches apart. They pass through walls in porceline tubes, and are stood off the ceiling by knobs. Besides that, many thousands of buildings are still wired in it and doing fine. It is usually where it has been "modified" by someone who has no skill or knowledge that it becomes a problem.


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

InPhase277 said:


> I'm not kidding. Those wires are probably 8 inches apart. They pass through walls in porceline tubes, and are stood off the ceiling by knobs. Besides that, many thousands of buildings are still wired in it and doing fine. It is usually where it has been "modified" by someone who has no skill or knowledge that it becomes a problem.


 O.K. so you are not kidding!

I still would not want to be responsible for re-energizing that wiring.

I know there are many places that still have knob and tube, but you said that wiring has not been energized for years. At least that is what I understood.

Good Luck.


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## niteshift (Nov 21, 2007)

niteshift said:


> K&T was allowed to use existing abandoned gas pipe for lighting conductors up to the new electric light when the old gas light was replaced.


I still tring to answer this with some facts, so far I found this. 
*Early Conduit*


Starting in the 1860s, conduit known as Orangeburg pipe consisted of cellulose fibers bound together with water-resistant glue, and then sealed using coal tar pitch. In modern times, electrical conduit more commonly contains materials such as PVC, aluminum and steel.


*Gas to Electricity*


In the early 20th century, as people converted gas light fixtures to electricity, they usually ran the wires through existing gas pipe. This served as a simple way to route wiring through walls and ceilings, and also afforded it some protection. As electricity became a more common power source, conduit developed specifically for the purpose of routing and protecting electrical wiring.



​


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## MarkyMark (Jan 31, 2009)

InPhase277 said:


> It looks to be in good condition from what I see. I bet it could be energized right now with no problems.


You might want to take a look at pictures 4 and 5 again.....


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## sparky.jp (May 1, 2009)

niteshift said:


> K&T was allowed to use existing abandoned gas pipe for lighting conductors up to the new electric light when the old gas light was replaced.


Gas lighting bridged the gap between standalone oil lamps and electric lights. It was common (and much less expensive) to retrofit existing gas lighting fixtures to electric. That's why, to this very day, lamp sockets have the 1/8"-27 pipe threads on them - they were originally designed to be screwed onto the gas piping in place of the gas burner head.

Ask around and see how many of your friends and coworkers know this. Also, ask them how old the Edison-base socket is (kind of the "Roman road" of the electrical world).


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## mnelectrician (Dec 1, 2008)

Yeah old ****


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## mnelectrician (Dec 1, 2008)

Yeah old ****


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## dmxtothemax (Jun 15, 2010)

Whilst I dont agree it would be safe to energise !
I do agree that the level of workman ship used in its
original constuction was very high !
Quality work !
Not seen now days !


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

dmxtothemax said:


> Whilst I dont agree it would be safe to energise !
> I do agree that the level of workman ship used in its
> original constuction was very high !
> Quality work !
> Not seen now days !


 


This is true, I have very rarely, if ever, seen sloppy K and T installations.

Possibly tubes through joists a little loose, thats it.

I have seen it damaged, chewed etc.

But, I have seen N M D cable in worse shape!


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## electricalperson (Jan 11, 2008)

niteshift said:


> K&T was allowed to use existing abandoned gas pipe for lighting conductors up to the new electric light when the old gas light was replaced.


in the first edition of the american electricians handbook, some lights were combination meaning they used both gas and electric. they sometimes used an insulated hickey to separate the light from the gas pipe incase of a short circuit. usually when i see it the gas pipe is holding a hickey that supports the light. sometimes the gas is still live


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