# Arc faults lol



## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

This is simply more proof that AFCIs are completely worthless. 

Well, not completely worthless, they do indeed generate a fairly large profit for the manufacturers........


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## blueheels2 (Apr 22, 2009)

Honestly I’m kind of mad about it. Sick of dealing with these things. Have a customer right now that has 2 afci’s that are nuisance tripping and I’m not sure I’m ever going to find a real solution to the problem. But that’s it there is no problem.


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## MotoGP1199 (Aug 11, 2014)

Complete garbage, I blame CMP 2. At this point there is no way there is not some corruption going on for these devices to still be in the code and expanded in the code.

Could you imagine if these were required to be on all commercial circuits. Computers shut down, security systems shut down, servers turned off, etc. What a disaster that would be.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

What’s CMP 2?


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## MotoGP1199 (Aug 11, 2014)

99cents said:


> What’s CMP 2?


Code Making Panel 2 (Members of NFPA, designated for that specific section of the NEC). They are the ones responsible for putting AFCI's and expanding AFCI's into the NEC. Different code making panels do different sections of the NEC.


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## blueheels2 (Apr 22, 2009)

Yeah let’s fire all of cmp2.


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## SWDweller (Dec 9, 2020)

Could you imagine if these were required to be on all commercial circuits. Computers shut down, security systems shut down, servers turned off, etc. What a disaster that would be.
[/QUOTE]

Disagree completly, once industry is forced into loosing money over these things, there would be a CHANGE either in the equipment or the code.


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## NoBot (Oct 12, 2019)

I wired a house for a retired Electrical Engineer that was on the original design team of AFCI breakers for Eaton - Cutler Hammer. I mentioned that Arc Faults were originally designed as a money maker for the company with no other purpose. He gave me a shocked looked and said "How did you know that" I told him it was obvious. He laughed and simply said "ya, you're right"


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

There's no one to advocate for all the homeowners. I'm curoius as to how they're working in Europe and the UK, where they install one GFCI (RCB) and one AFCI for the entire premis. I'l bet theirs are so dialed down in thresholds so as to render them totally useless.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

blueheels2 said:


> Yeah let’s fire all of cmp2.


True justice would be to assign a geographical area to each member who voted to require AFCIs and require them to visit every place where AFCIs are installed and replace them with standard breakers.....at their own expense. 

If whoever has the authority to do so actually did so, maybe it would keep some of these other zealots (domestic terrorists) in check........


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## SWDweller (Dec 9, 2020)

I worked for Eaton during the same time period. They created the tech and then gave it way for the world to use. I challenged one of the engineers on the development team, "Why would you do that?" He said to get it into the electrical code and to make money. Knew right then and there i wanted nothing to do with them.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

SWDweller said:


> I worked for Eaton during the same time period. They created the tech and then gave it way for the world to use. I challenged one of the engineers on the development team, "Why would you do that?" He said to get it into the electrical code and to make money. Knew right then and there i wanted nothing to do with them.


So, it's only because of the "Big Switch Cabal?" So Mac was right? Well whaddya know...


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Should there be a cost versus safety analysis? Is the added cost to a homeowner buying all that much safety?


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> There's no one to advocate for all the homeowners. I'm curoius as to how they're working in Europe and the UK, where they install one GFCI (RCB) and one AFCI for the entire premis. I'l bet theirs are so dialed down in thresholds so as to render them totally useless.


I did not know Europe and UK required arc fault now ... 

I think their RCD is the same as our 30ma GFP, I am not sure. If that is the case would think that the higher trip level is still a significant safety advantage. My understanding is the trip levels of GFCIs are very safe, 4-6ma is so low even a little kid wouldn't be harmed. But 30ma trip is still low enough to reduce the hazard - could be the difference between injury and death. 

Also GFP protects from lots of faults before anyone gets zapped - anything from an issue with the service neutral to a ground fault with enough impedance that the breaker doesn't trip, I am sure there's lots of examples.


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> So, it's only because of the "Big Switch Cabal?" So Mac was right? Well whaddya know...


Remember @macmikeman is always right.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

micromind said:


> True justice would be to assign a geographical area to each member who voted to require AFCIs and require them to visit every place where AFCIs are installed and replace them with standard breakers.....at their own expense.
> 
> If whoever has the authority to do so actually did so, maybe it would keep some of these other zealots (domestic terrorists) in check........


Or, or, I have an idea, put one of those stun collars they had on the old star trek on every one of them, and every time someone finds an arc fault breaker that trips on nothing, or fails to trip on an arc, you call the manufacturer's tech support line, and PRESS 5 TO ZAP THE CMP MEMBERS. Actually I think I could build this.


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

splatz said:


> Or, or, I have an idea, put one of those stun collars they had on the old star trek on every one of them, and every time someone finds an arc fault breaker that trips on nothing, or fails to trip on an arc, you call the manufacturer's tech support line, and PRESS 5 TO ZAP THE CMP MEMBERS. Actually I think I could build this.


You better use NRTL certified components in your build.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

blueheels2 said:


> Service call this am for a receptacle that was stabbed in the back and the wires were loose and burned in 2. Melted the receptacle. Circuit was afci protected. Isn’t this the type of thing than an afci is supposed to sense. Oh yeah that’s right afci’s don’t do anything but make manufacturers money and give us headaches.


Just curious, how old was the install and was it done correctly? Was the push in receptacles done at the same time as the AFCI?


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

When I have a problem with the AFCI tripping I try to see if there is a reason for the tripping. Not all the time but only if the situation can afford it. I am on a job now where I added many recessed lights which require AFCI. I was having problems with tripping so I started pulling switches and receptacles. It was a major renovation where I was basically on T & M. It was a good thing I did because I found many dangerous situations done by the previous electrician / handyman. Did AFCI prevent a fire? Would it prevent a fire? IDK. They did tell me something was wrong with the wiring which could have caused a fire or shock hazard.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

splatz said:


> I did not know Europe and UK required arc fault now ...
> 
> I think their RCD is the same as our 30ma GFP, I am not sure. If that is the case would think that the higher trip level is still a significant safety advantage. My understanding is the trip levels of GFCIs are very safe, 4-6ma is so low even a little kid wouldn't be harmed. But 30ma trip is still low enough to reduce the hazard - could be the difference between injury and death.
> 
> Also GFP protects from lots of faults before anyone gets zapped - anything from an issue with the service neutral to a ground fault with enough impedance that the breaker doesn't trip, I am sure there's lots of examples.


Saw it on YouTube - I don't know their actual requirements or their codes, but they've been installing AFCI mains a while now too. Their GFCIs are mains as well so, a GF kills all power. Now an Arc fault will kill all power as well. I'm sorry but - a home electrical fire due to faulty permanent wiring is pretty rare from my perspective.


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## MotoGP1199 (Aug 11, 2014)

brian john said:


> Should there be a cost versus safety analysis? Is the added cost to a homeowner buying all that much safety?


This is assuming there is a safety they are buying. I haven't seen it(or proof of it) yet.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Saw it on YouTube - I don't know their actual requirements or their codes, but they've been installing AFCI mains a while now too. Their GFCIs are mains as well so, a GF kills all power. Now an Arc fault will kill all power as well. I'm sorry but - a home electrical fire due to faulty permanent wiring is pretty rare from my perspective.


Mains?

All I can say is it would be a shame to freeze up an entire house because of a cheap extension cord.

Good. Maybe the insurance companies will start a push back on this stupidity.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

splatz said:


> Or, or, I have an idea, put one of those stun collars they had on the old star trek on every one of them, and every time someone finds an arc fault breaker that trips on nothing, or fails to trip on an arc, you call the manufacturer's tech support line, and PRESS 5 TO ZAP THE CMP MEMBERS. Actually I think I could build this.


Lets add self testing gfi failure suicides into the stun collars column.


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## blueheels2 (Apr 22, 2009)

kb1jb1 said:


> Just curious, how old was the install and was it done correctly? Was the push in receptacles done at the same time as the AFCI?


Install was 14 years old and looked typical for the area. Legal but not pretty. All work. Appeared to be done at the same time. Microwave was on the end of the run so a decent load was going through the receptacle . But that’s how things are wired here. I’ve come to find out my average install is a custom job for sure.


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## mofos be cray (Nov 14, 2016)

brian john said:


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> 
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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

In the UK there is ground fault and line to line fault testing done (meggering prior to energizing residential circuits. And the way cool expensive testers they use read out ohms resistance and go no go on same. All checked individual and handed to the local inspector prior to release of said dwelling to the power company hookup. With that type of dedicated investigation, there " ain't" no reason to have arc fault circuit breakers in the first place......


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## IplayWITHlightning (Mar 10, 2021)

looks like i found a group of guys that appreciate arc-faults as much as i do. here's a picture of a snake-oil breaker that the customer's former election left the neutral loose which caused it to burn up the neutral conductor ON THE BREAKER. yeah, it never tripped. after the connection went bad, it burnt up all of the circuit boards on their paddle fans on this circuit. the customer was really impressed by this $50 breaker that was intended to sense faults just like this, after they had to buy new fans...


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## Greg Sparkovich (Sep 15, 2007)

LOL.
I add AFCI, GFCI, and Dual Protection regularly and virtually never have a problem. I mostly add them to knob & tube circuits for safety.
Do I see "nuisance trips"?
No, I see problems that need to be solved ...often in new wiring as well as old. Lots of flips where someone confuses neutrals or a newbie(?) helper just put all the neutrals into 1 wirenut.
Is all of it vitally important, life-saving work?
No.

So what kind of work DOI do?
Well, this week, I did trouble shooting for (2) circuits in a flip that have been tripping pretty much daily. One was 4 receptacles in the living room and the other was a single receptacle in the bedroom (HO wasn't sure what else was on that circuit since they stopped using it months ago).
Solution? Sloppy work: un-taped receptacles creating a ground fault intermittently probably due to vibration near the stairs. Tightened all connections, taped up receptacles and folded wires neatly into wall cases. No more so called "nuisance" trips.
This afternoon, I have a shithole slum lord whose tenant is constantly getting shocked in the kitchen. Landlord spent $600 on electricians who didn't know what was wrong, so he didn't believe the tenants ...till he finally got shocked yesterday. There are only 4 CBs for the apartment, so I'm going to upgrade the breakers to dual protection to help protect those poor tenants (and my customer's liability) and when the breaker(s) start tripping, I'll troubleshoot.

But Wait ...did I say knob and tube circuits?!? Oh hell yes. As much as I can.
WHY???
Well safety of course. Mostly unlabeled/unknown shared neutral circuits. I've found more shared neutral circuits than I can count. A ton of 3 hots/1 neutral, 3 hots/2 shared neutrals, 4 hots and 2-3 shared neutrals, etc. circuits. Even a few shared neutrals coming from different apartment panels in a building with "separated utilities".
But mostly I use them as a way to "legalize" all those 3-prong ungrounded receptacle locations...and then find problems (if necessary). This is definitely a good money maker; minimum + materials for a 30 minute job instead of getting stuck changing a bunch of receptacles to 2-prongers that a customer or tenant is going to stick an adaptor into.

_I see AFCI/GFCI circuit breakers as a trouble-shooting and diagnostic tool as much as a "safety" device_.

I also see them as a potential diversion from liability. I've never been sued, but if it happens, I won't have to explain to a judge why I decided against offering the best possible protection (at least according to NEC/AHJ) that I could in an old house that some lawyer could have said was a death trap because I was negligent.

That said, I have found burnt up GFCI receptacles that never tripped, so I see room for improvement.
(In my Dad's retirement home, a GFCI literally caught fire and pretty much exploded when water leaking from work in an apartment above his hit the back of the wall case. Luckily, I was there to shut off the breaker because no one else knew what to do. The pictures were pretty amazing)

---
I'll add one other thing: customers lie all the time. Mostly I think it's because they are embarrassed that they didn't call earlier. So for AFCI/GFCI breakers that don't trip, I suspect abuse. Like, unreasonable repetition.
I've confronted a few people who told me that "this just happened" and find out it's been going on for months. My first example above is like that. Really nice people who just let this problem go on for months (they didn't lie, but they definitely abused their system).

Or tell me this hasn't happened to you: during the initial phone calls I ask
"did you change the light bulb?"
"Yes".
"Did you try turning all the circuit breakers off and on?"
"Yes".
"Did you check your GFCI outlets to see if any are tripped?"
"Yes."

(...And yet I still feel guilty charging a minimum for a service call to change a light bulb, flip a breaker, push a button...)

So, all I'm saying is I use AFCI/GFCI protection a LOT. I use them correctly (cut the pigtail as short as you can with no hard bends -this is really important), and I haven't had an AFCI/GFCI callback since the 1990s when I do believe that the first AFCIs tripped for things like a vacuum cleaner (but those days are gone as far as I'm concerned).


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## hbiss (Mar 1, 2008)

Greg Sparkovich said:


> I see AFCI/GFCI circuit breakers as a trouble-shooting and diagnostic tool


Yeah, OK. A GFCI breaker will do the same thing. So will an ohmmeter or simple continuity tester.

And you are right. 



Greg Sparkovich said:


> ...and I haven't had an AFCI/GFCI callback since the 1990s when I do believe that the first AFCIs tripped for things like a vacuum cleaner (but those days are gone as far as I'm concerned).


That's about the time when they decided the only way to avoid lawsuits was to start "dialing down" the sensitivity because they knew there was no way in hell they were going to make those things work legitimately. How would anybody know if they really work anyway? Push the test button? 

-Hal


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## Jim Alt (Apr 20, 2010)

blueheels2 said:


> Service call this am for a receptacle that was stabbed in the back and the wires were loose and burned in 2. Melted the receptacle. Circuit was afci protected. Isn’t this the type of thing than an afci is supposed to sense. Oh yeah that’s right afci’s don’t do anything but make manufacturers money and give us headaches.


years ago Mr.Mike Holt noted his frustration with this being added to the "CODE" if he does not get it, were screwed.
25 + years ago the manufactures took over the code Committees when big city electrical inspectors and small towns would not fund the travel to conventions.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Greg Sparkovich said:


> LOL.
> I add AFCI, GFCI, and Dual Protection regularly and virtually never have a problem. I mostly add them to knob & tube circuits for safety.
> Do I see "nuisance trips"?
> No, I see problems that need to be solved ...often in new wiring as well as old. Lots of flips where someone confuses neutrals or a newbie(?) helper just put all the neutrals into 1 wirenut.
> ...


What brand of AFCI are those? The picture looks like some breakers have three white wires. It would be nice to see the whole breaker.


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## Greg Sparkovich (Sep 15, 2007)

kb1jb1 said:


> What brand of AFCI are those? The picture looks like some breakers have three white wires. It would be nice to see the whole breaker.


You quoted the wrong post, but yeah I noticed that too. I think that because of the angle, it looks like there are 2 neutral pigtails in the 3rd from the bottom and none on the bottom one.

In any case, the lose connection on that branch circuit neutral should have tripped the AFCI.
3 explanations:
1). Customer lied and kept flipping the breaker on when it tripped. It finally died after the wire was trashed anyway.
2). Maybe the wrong brand for the panel. Normally I wouldn't think much of this but I had an Eaton AFCI in a Siemens panel that never tripped. The customer wanted me to match all the breakers to the panel as per the home inspector's report. As soon as I put the Siemens AFCIs in, one breaker started tripping. Low and behold, there were 2 circuits in a switch box with a hallway 3-way and a bathroom light that shared a neutral. I had to put them on a double pole breaker. The Eaton had never tripped, so either Eaton AFCIs suck or...
3). The breaker is just
faulty.

* I've seen other Eaton AFCI failures. I use some Eaton products but for panels and breakers I like the Siemens PL and PN series for the copper bus bar.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

I am getting confused with the pictures and posters. Who is who....


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Greg Sparkovich said:


> You quoted the wrong post, but yeah I noticed that too. I think that because of the angle, it looks like there are 2 neutral pigtails in the 3rd from the bottom and none on the bottom one.
> 
> In any case, the lose connection on that branch circuit neutral should have tripped the AFCI.
> 3 explanations:
> ...


I noticed the same thing with Siemens / Murray breakers tripping with certain dimmers. I put in the Eaton and the problems disappeared.


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## Greg Sparkovich (Sep 15, 2007)

See, I don't trust the Eatons after they wouldn't trip during a confirmed shared neutral. So my conclusion is the exact opposite of yours.
My assumption would be that there is a problem with the circuit if the Siemens or Murray AFCIs were tripping, but that the Eaton wasn't working properly if it didn't.


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## Forge Boyz (Nov 7, 2014)

Greg Sparkovich said:


> See, I don't trust the Eatons after they wouldn't trip during a confirmed shared neutral. So my conclusion is the exact opposite of yours.
> My assumption would be that there is a problem with the circuit if the Siemens or Murray AFCIs were tripping, but that the Eaton wasn't working properly if it didn't.


Eaton has removed ground fault sensing from their arc faults. So they will not trip on shared nuetrals anymore. Most of the time when an AFCI picks up wiring problems it is a ground/nuetral fault. We don't need AFCI's. GFCI'S would do the job just fine without the nuisance tripping from appliances and suchlike.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


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## Greg Sparkovich (Sep 15, 2007)

Forge Boyz said:


> Eaton has removed ground fault sensing from their arc faults. So they will not trip on shared nuetrals anymore. Most of the time when an AFCI picks up wiring problems it is a ground/nuetral fault. We don't need AFCI's. GFCI'S would do the job just fine without the nuisance tripping from appliances and suchlike.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


Well, you've just explained why we shouldn't use Eaton products any more.
I don't get nuisance trips, so I'm glad I can use Siemens and offer my customers better protection. Although for $10 more I've switched to dual protection for many jobs.


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## SparkyBB (Jun 20, 2013)

MotoGP1199 said:


> Code Making Panel 2 (Members of NFPA, designated for that specific section of the NEC). They are the ones responsible for putting AFCI's and expanding AFCI's into the NEC. Different code making panels do different sections of the NEC.


get a rope


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## Forge Boyz (Nov 7, 2014)

Greg Sparkovich said:


> Well, you've just explained why we shouldn't use Eaton products any more.
> I don't get nuisance trips, so I'm glad I can use Siemens and offer my customers better protection. Although for $10 more I've switched to dual protection for many jobs.


Umm.... you are missing the point. AFCI'S are bunk. You could get the same protection using GFCI'S, without all the nuisance trips. Siemens AFCI'S don't play well with Lutron dimmers. Any reason? Not really. 

ETA. That's a reason why I would NOT use Siemens arc faults. No logical reason for it.
Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


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## Greg Sparkovich (Sep 15, 2007)

Again, I don't get random, unexplained trips from AFCIs so I'm not worried about it.
I'm a one-man shop and a lot of the work I get is troubleshooting other electricians' problems. I'd say 50% are a ground touching a neutral. There is a really simple fix for that: tape up outlets and switches and fold wires back before just shoving the devices in.
I stock 3 kinds of lutron dimmers in my van, I don't recall ever having a problem with any that I have installed. Mostly basic styles; toggle, decora, and slider/switch, so maybe you're using something else. Maybe the weather is different where we live... who knows.
I love Siemens' products ...and they're the only company that makes copper bus panels that aren't stupid expensive and proprietary as ****.

I do appreciate the answer as to why the Eatons don't work as well. That was always a mystery to me!


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

...... Delete ... I saw 'tape the outlets' and thought I was on DIYchat


carry on .... 😜


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

emtnut said:


> ...... Delete ... I saw 'tape the outlets' and thought I was on DIYchat
> 
> 
> carry on .... 😜


😆🤣😆

Same here


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## MotoGP1199 (Aug 11, 2014)

emtnut said:


> ...... Delete ... I saw 'tape the outlets' and thought I was on DIYchat
> 
> 
> carry on .... 😜


LOL same here. On a side note. Ideal now sells large rubber bands(Ideal Armour Band) to use instead of tape. I saw this at the local SH and asked the guy about them. He said he has not sold one and it just sits on the ideal display. I have a feeling DIY'ers and handymen are going to love these. Eventually they will probably get these in the code and mandate them. Everyone in NFPA will get a new boat or house.


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## SummitElectric1 (Aug 8, 2016)

MotoGP1199 said:


> LOL same here. On a side note. Ideal now sells large rubber bands(Ideal Armour Band) to use instead of tape. I saw this at the local SH and asked the guy about them. He said he has not sold one and it just sits on the ideal display. I have a feeling DIY'ers and handymen are going to love these. Eventually they will probably get these in the code and mandate them. Everyone in NFPA will get a new boat or house.
> 
> View attachment 154606
> 
> View attachment 154607


Ideal sent me a sample pack of those about 6-8 months ago. They're still sitting on a shelf in my shop because I haven't found a situation where I felt they were needed.

What's next? An elastic insulating wrap to put around wirenuts?


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

emtnut said:


> ...... Delete ... I saw 'tape the outlets' and thought I was on DIYchat
> 
> 
> carry on .... 😜


Everyone who is anyone knows you are supposed to use Scotch 1755 friction tape.


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## Greg Sparkovich (Sep 15, 2007)

Wait ...you're cracking me up. What's your problem with taping receptacles and switches?
I mean, I make a lot of money from bozos who don't, but I'm really curious if you have a good reason not to?
Especially in the context of people who keep claiming that afci's have "nuisance trips"!
I mean, unless someone is so desperate for money, that they don't feel like they have the time to do that.. But in that case, they should raise their prices. LOL


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

MotoGP1199 said:


> LOL same here. On a side note. Ideal now sells large rubber bands(Ideal Armour Band) to use instead of tape. I saw this at the local SH and asked the guy about them. He said he has not sold one and it just sits on the ideal display. I have a feeling DIY'ers and handymen are going to love these. Eventually they will probably get these in the code and mandate them. Everyone in NFPA will get a new boat or house.
> 
> View attachment 154606
> 
> View attachment 154607


Those would be handy when installing a GFI in a cut-in box. 

It's the only time I ever tape devices.


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## Forge Boyz (Nov 7, 2014)

Greg Sparkovich said:


> Wait ...you're cracking me up. What's your problem with taping receptacles and switches?
> I mean, I make a lot of money from bozos who don't, but I'm really curious if you have a good reason not to?
> Especially in the context of people who keep claiming that afci's have "nuisance trips"!
> I mean, unless someone is so desperate for money, that they don't feel like they have the time to do that.. But in that case, they should raise their prices. LOL


It is completely unnecessary in most situations if you know how to pack your boxes. The only time to do it is in an old work box with f clips that get too close to the terminal screws. I hate having to deal with tape on devices. It smacks of DIY. And no, I don't have problems with ground nuetral faults from ground wires touching.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

micromind said:


> Those would be handy when installing a GFI in a cut-in box.
> 
> It's the only time I ever tape devices.


Agreed, those are tight !


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

Greg Sparkovich said:


> Wait ...you're cracking me up. What's your problem with taping receptacles and switches?
> *I mean, I make a lot of money from bozos who don't, but I'm really curious if you have a good reason not to?*
> Especially in the context of people who keep claiming that afci's have "nuisance trips"!
> I mean, unless someone is so desperate for money, that they don't feel like they have the time to do that.. But in that case, they should raise their prices. LOL


You make money off of bozo's who can't tuck the wire into the box properly. If taping devices provided any kind of benefit it would be a code requirement.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

emtnut said:


> Agreed, those are tight !


The screws are still below the plastic, what do you gain by taping?


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

joe-nwt said:


> The screws are still below the plastic, what do you gain by taping?


Helps when pulling it out live while troubleshooting.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

joe-nwt said:


> If taping devices provided any kind of benefit it would be a code requirement.


Actually, it's more like 'if taping would increase the profits of the tape companies, it'd be required'.......lol.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

emtnut said:


> Helps when pulling it out live while troubleshooting.


BS. Here's is a gfci I just pulled off the shelf and stuck a #12 wire under the screw. How is it going to touch any metal?


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

joe-nwt said:


> BS. Here's is a gfci I just pulled off the shelf and stuck a #12 wire under the screw. How is it going to touch any metal


I'd have no issues if I new it was a decent electrician that installed it.

Some 'people' like to strip a good 1-1/2 of insulation on the wires.

And they don't always pull out exactly straight.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Those who don’t tape receptacles are bozo’s? 

That’s some funny stuff right there😆


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## Greg Sparkovich (Sep 15, 2007)

I tape receptacles for a couple reasons. One because I don't know who else is coming after me ... Maybe the homeowner ...and I don't want them to get hurt. I don't care what whether or not they're "supposed" to. People will do what they do and you can't control them.
Also, since I've seen it so many times: the ground wire folding forward. I do it because I'm not arrogant enough to think it's impossible to make an occasional mistake. I guarantee my work forever, so I don't like to take chances. You know, it only takes 10 seconds to do the job right...

As for my ego or some kind of "image" of professionalism meaning that you don't have to do best practices because you're perfect, I don't mind taking a big _15_ seconds to do something properly.
Taping is just the right thing to do.

But for those of you who want to keep pretending that "nuisance trips" are actually a thing, please: keep on doing what you're doing!


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

And ... he adds AFCI's to knob and tub with no trips.

No idea how he does that since they tied neutrals everywhere with K&T


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Greg Sparkovich said:


> I tape receptacles for a couple reasons. One because I don't know who else is coming after me ... Maybe the homeowner ...and I don't want them to get hurt. I don't care what whether or not they're "supposed" to. People will do what they do and you can't control them.
> Also, since I've seen it so many times: the ground wire folding forward. I do it because I'm not arrogant enough to think it's impossible to make an occasional mistake. I guarantee my work forever, so I don't like to take chances. You know, it only takes 10 seconds to do the job right...
> 
> As for my ego or some kind of "image" of professionalism meaning that you don't have to do best practices because you're perfect, I don't mind taking a big _15_ seconds to do something properly.
> ...


When I see a taped receptacle, and I’m sure this is the same for most electricians, I assume it was not installed by a professional. It is not best practice or “the right thing to do”, it is amateur. A properly installed device does not require it.


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## Forge Boyz (Nov 7, 2014)

Greg Sparkovich said:


> I tape receptacles for a couple reasons. One because I don't know who else is coming after me ... Maybe the homeowner ...and I don't want them to get hurt. I don't care what whether or not they're "supposed" to. People will do what they do and you can't control them.
> Also, since I've seen it so many times: the ground wire folding forward. I do it because I'm not arrogant enough to think it's impossible to make an occasional mistake. I guarantee my work forever, so I don't like to take chances. You know, it only takes 10 seconds to do the job right...
> 
> As for my ego or some kind of "image" of professionalism meaning that you don't have to do best practices because you're perfect, I don't mind taking a big _15_ seconds to do something properly.
> ...





Greg Sparkovich said:


> But for those of you who want to keep pretending that "nuisance trips" are actually a thing, please: keep on doing what you're doing!


After you spend more than a day chasing down the "fault" that is tripping an AFCI, thinking you found it, but then having it move to a different location, you might change your mind. This was our experience not long ago. The issue? Siemens breakers cannot handle more than 4 Lutron dimmers per breaker. That is nuisance tripping. We generally don't have issues with AFCI'S. But this case IS nuisance tripping.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Forge Boyz said:


> After you spend more than a day chasing down the "fault" that is tripping an AFCI, thinking you found it, but then having it move to a different location, you might change your mind. This was our experience not long ago. The issue? Siemens breakers cannot handle more than 4 Lutron dimmers per breaker. That is nuisance tripping. We generally don't have issues with AFCI'S. But this case IS nuisance tripping.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


Let me guess, the bozo who installed the dimmers didn’t tape them?


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## Forge Boyz (Nov 7, 2014)

No tape. I guess the electrons could jump around too much in the box.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


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## SparkyBB (Jun 20, 2013)

MotoGP1199 said:


> Code Making Panel 2 (Members of NFPA, designated for that specific section of the NEC). They are the ones responsible for putting AFCI's and expanding AFCI's into the NEC. Different code making panels do different sections of the NEC.


et a rope


joe-nwt said:


> BS. Here's is a gfci I just pulled off the shelf and stuck a #12 wire under the screw. How is it going to touch any metal?
> 
> View attachment 154609


Does it change when ya put wire under the screw?


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## mofos be cray (Nov 14, 2016)

MotoGP1199 said:


> LOL same here. On a side note. Ideal now sells large rubber bands(Ideal Armour Band) to use instead of tape. I saw this at the local SH and asked the guy about them. He said he has not sold one and it just sits on the ideal display. I have a feeling DIY'ers and handymen are going to love these. Eventually they will probably get these in the code and mandate them. Everyone in NFPA will get a new boat or house.
> 
> View attachment 154606
> 
> View attachment 154607


My supply house comped me a couple of those things. You go to the nightstand, get a condom and put that on faster that those things.


joe-nwt said:


> BS. Here's is a gfci I just pulled off the shelf and stuck a #12 wire under the screw. How is it going to touch any metal?
> 
> View attachment 154609


Pulling a receptacle out of a steel box live I have shorted out to the box. Maybe I tipped it funny, idk, but I did it.


emtnut said:


> And ... he adds AFCI's to knob and tub with no trips.
> 
> No idea how he does that since they tied neutrals everywhere with K&T


Was wondering that too!

I tape receptacles and switches if the painters or drywallers are likely to be ****ing with them. Real easy for a drywaller to touch the screw with his knife if he's backed the receptacle off.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

mofos be cray said:


> My supply house comped me a couple of those things. You go to the nightstand, get a condom and put that on faster that those things.
> 
> Pulling a receptacle out of a steel box live I have shorted out to the box. Maybe I tipped it funny, idk, but I did it.
> 
> ...


Temp pole outside the structure. No power inside till I am all done and done and payed. Anybody coming after me is removing my faceplate and that there is their mistake not mine. I do tape up 277 v light switches pushed into old work steel boxes though, definite when I had to use a couple of F clips to keep the box in the wall.


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## Greg Sparkovich (Sep 15, 2007)

emtnut said:


> And ... he adds AFCI's to knob and tub with no trips.
> 
> No idea how he does that since they tied neutrals everywhere with K&T


No idea?
Maybe go back to school.
1). Not all K&T share neutrals,
2). There is a terrific device call a "double pole combination AFCI circuit breaker" Ask for oneat your supply store.

I get that a lot of electricians have trouble with knob & tube. I do encourage customers to replace, but my neighborhood is filled with beautiful Victorian historical buildings; 3 stories, 3,000+ square feet, 3, 4, and 5 way switched neutral K&T circuits in the stairs. Gorgeous original wood and plaster moldings -rehab is $20-$40K; not everyone can afford that. So you bet I put that stuff on AFCI and GFCI protection. I'm a 1-man shop and I order these 10-20 at a time.



Forge Boyz said:


> After you spend more than a day chasing down the "fault" that is tripping an AFCI, thinking you found it, but then having it move to a different location, you might change your mind.


I have never spent a day chasing down an AFCI or GFCI issue. Trouble-shooting AFCI & GFCI issues are not complicated; mostly divide and conquer. Last week I took apart 5 receptacles and taped them up to fix (2) "Nuisance trips" in a new construction flip. My minimum is $150 and it took me so little time I felt guilty.

I troubleshoot all the time; these are non-issues to me; it's not like I'm suffering or I don't get paid for it.


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## Forge Boyz (Nov 7, 2014)

Greg Sparkovich said:


> I have never spent a day chasing down an AFCI or GFCI issue. Trouble-shooting AFCI & GFCI issues are not complicated; mostly divide and conquer. Last week I took apart 5 receptacles and taped them up to fix (2) "Nuisance trips" in a new construction flip. My minimum is $150 and it took me so little time I felt guilty.
> 
> I troubleshoot all the time; these are non-issues to me; it's not like I'm suffering or I don't get paid for it.


You missed the point. There was no problem at all. You cannot find a problem that isn't there. The guys ripped everything apart and found nothing. The wiring was fine; having 5 dimmers on one arc fault made it trip. How is that not nuisance tripping?

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


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## Greg Sparkovich (Sep 15, 2007)

Forge Boyz said:


> You missed the point. There was no problem at all. You cannot find a problem that isn't there. The guys ripped everything apart and found nothing. The wiring was fine; having 5 dimmers on one arc fault made it trip. How is that not nuisance tripping?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


Interesting. I've never had that problem. I stock Lutron and recently started carrying a Pass & Seymour dimmer I like. Leviton is another brand I use.

So did you just replace the AFCI with another? Replace it with a standard breaker? Change the dimmers?


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## Forge Boyz (Nov 7, 2014)

Greg Sparkovich said:


> Interesting. I've never had that problem. I stock Lutron and recently started carrying a Pass & Seymour dimmer I like. Leviton is another brand I use.
> 
> So did you just replace the AFCI with another? Replace it with a standard breaker? Change the dimmers?


Replaced it with an Eaton BR arc fault. Problem solved after a LOT of wasted time 

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

Greg Sparkovich said:


> No idea?
> Maybe go back to school.
> 1). Not all K&T share neutrals,
> 2). There is a terrific device call a "double pole combination AFCI circuit breaker" Ask for oneat your supply store.
> I get that a lot of electricians have trouble with knob & tube.


1) I'm guessing I'm at least twice your age, and I've never come across a K&T install that didn't share neutrals.
Your area must be very special.

2) How does that terrific device help if it's not a MWBC ?
Maybe I should ask the guy with the orange apron ? Enlighten me how that would help.


While your at it, cause I can tell your quite up on things.... How does a 120V arc fault detector detect an arc on 120 volts, given that it is physically impossible to maintain an arc at that voltage level ???


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## Greg Sparkovich (Sep 15, 2007)

emtnut said:


> 1) I'm guessing I'm at least twice your age, and I've never come across a K&T install that didn't share neutrals.
> Your area must be very special.
> 
> 2) How does that terrific device help if it's not a MWBC ?
> ...


1). Precious. If you're twice my age, I congratulate you, but you should retire. ...I mean, no offense, but you 'should' be dead by now.

2). I am not going to pretend that I am a scientist or an engineer, but I have seen/heard continuous arcING in a worn cord andalso a switch that was tripping an AFCI. I didn't take the time/energy to take an amperage measurement to see if it would tripped a standard breaker, but I do know that replacing said wire and said switch worked to stop the AFCI from tripping. That is satisfactory to me.

For the record, there is nothing magical about knob and tube ...it's just 2 conductors. Whether or not someone decides to share a neutral isn't a mandatory requirement for circuit(s) to function. ...Just like someone using 12/3 or 14/3 to do the same thing. Sometimes you see it, sometimes you don't.
The premise that "Every" K&T circuit is a multi-wire circuit suggests that all houses wired with K&T must have had an even number of circuits ...again, simply not a requirement, nor true. These are silly arguments.


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

Greg Sparkovich said:


> 1). Precious. If you're twice my age, I congratulate you, but you should retire. ...I mean, no offense, but you 'should' be dead by now.
> 
> 2). I am not going to pretend that I am a scientist or an engineer, but I have seen/heard continuous arcING in a worn cord andalso a switch that was tripping an AFCI. I didn't take the time/energy to take an amperage measurement to see if it would tripped a standard breaker, but I do know that replacing said wire and said switch worked to stop the AFCI from tripping. That is satisfactory to me.
> 
> ...


Maybe you could let these guys know what they were doing wrong !

oh, and you didn't see "arcING" , you saw sparks. Google the difference.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

emtnut said:


> Maybe you could let these guys know what they were doing wrong !
> 
> oh, and you didn't see "arcING" , you saw sparks. Google the difference.


The manufacturer's will claim that's not real arcing. That's sparking. Their highly advanced circuitry can tell the difference. What you need in that case is a spark fault circuit interrupter. The tri-combo breakers will be available later this year at an introductory price of $319.95. Place your orders now.


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## Greg Sparkovich (Sep 15, 2007)

Forge Boyz said:


> You missed the point. There was no problem at all. You cannot find a problem that isn't there. The guys ripped everything apart and found nothing. The wiring was fine; having 5 dimmers on one arc fault made it trip. How is that not nuisance tripping?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


Well, if there's really no problem, then it is a nuisance. I've not had that problem since the 90s. I don't like Eaton much myself, so I mostly have experience with Siemens.

Questions:
Did this happen with all the dimmers on, just one? Any combination?
Did it happen immediately when the circuit was energized?
In new construction, or on old work?
Did you do the original work?

I'm always interested in this stuff. I guarantee my labor forever -which, as I'm getting older means less with each passing year. Still: I serve my customers and I want to get information if it's worth applying.


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## Forge Boyz (Nov 7, 2014)

Greg Sparkovich said:


> Well, if there's really no problem, then it is a nuisance. I've not had that problem since the 90s. I don't like Eaton much myself, so I mostly have experience with Siemens.
> 
> Questions:
> Did this happen with all the dimmers on, just one? Any combination?
> ...


This was a remodel/addition that we wired. As far as I know it was all new wiring. The circuit would energize just fine. It was when the 5th or so dimmer was turned on that the breaker would trip and it was not that it was a particular dimmer. 
The guys thought they had it isolated to one particular set of recessed lights, but then discovered that other combinations would also trip it.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


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## Greg Sparkovich (Sep 15, 2007)

"As far as I know..."

Sooooo ...this is why I stopped doing construction. Of the 5 call-backs I've had in 30+ years, 3 were a helper. One was just dumb on my part (like embarrassing), and the last one I don't remember because I can't think of a 5th, but I pretend it happened to remind myself to be humble. I don't know or remember everything.
My point being that if you didn't do it yourself, you don't know.

You might have had a bad breaker; or something else. I don't know.

I'm motivated by being interested. Last night I did what I call a "Star Trek Science Project". That's when I watch an old episode of Star Trek (or something else I don't have to pay attention to) and do some experimenting ...usually involving beer as part of the scientific method.
I took an old, used, CAFCI that I keep to snap into a panel when the basement lights are out to give me light. It's attached to a single replacement socket with THHN so I can plug in a shop light.
I attached 5 old, used Lutron dimmers sitting in my basement (a CL, Maestro, skylark, and 2 others with screw connections), attached to 5 sockets with 5 different kinds of bulbs (dimmable LED, non dimmable LED, CFL, PAR 30 and an incandescent.
I shoved the hot and neutral into the breaker terminals. AFCI worked fine. I left the whole mess in my basement hanging from the panel for an hour. Came back and opened and closed the breaker a bunch of times and then ran my scrappy old black and decker pistol grip drill from the socket too. No problems.
I'm not just a petty shithead trying to tell you that "you did something wrong". I honestly WANT to know if I'm setting my customers up for problems... because I actually like my job, I'm competitive with other electricians, and I do care about being a good resource for my neighborhood...I also don't want to ever get another callback. Ever.

Anyway I thank you for motivating me to experiment. Useful to me. 

-----
A few years ago I tried the experiment from the video that EMTnut posted. I got lots of sparks, not a trip (using a siemens CAFCI, not Square D). Like everyone with an internet connection, I was annoyed but I did some reading and discovered that AFCIs are not "supposed" to trip under those circumstances.
Wait ...WHY???
Hell if I know.
There are technical reasons that I didn't understand:
I emailed with Dr. Jesse Aronstein (engineer who has experimented with deterioration of panels and circuit breakers) and Mike Holt (Electrical educator) and also spoke with Mike on the phone. They gave me explanations that I understand verbally, but not technically. Like I said, I'm not a scientist or an engineer. Suffice to say: I trust both of these gentlemen when they tell me that AFCIs are a good idea (if you know much about Mike Holt, he started out writing to the code panel against AFCIs and then changed his mind after visiting with tech folks at -I think- Cutler Hammer. I'm not a student of his, but he does do excellent work). So, considering the vast array of knowledge that these people have and my own very positive experiences, $45 isn't that much to spend; although I take on some 'charity' work, my customers are told what to expect to spend when they hire me.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

So............ which breaker company has the deepest pockets? Is it Eaton? Schneider? GE? Murray(hell no), Siemans?
I without a teeny bit of research bet on Eaton myself, however I certainly could be wrong about that. It's based on all the other companies Eaton has taken over, bought up and all. That would make em the safest to use since if you put them in and the house burns down, after all the flipping claims all these companies have made regarding their $50 dollar miracle life saving devices and how they are gonna stop all house fires from starting....well..... you know . Sue the Bastards. Your lousy work wasn't at fault, their circuit breakers simply failed to interrupt the arcing fault liked they promised it would.


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## Greg Sparkovich (Sep 15, 2007)

Jim Alt said:


> years ago Mr.Mike Holt noted his frustration with this being added to the "CODE" if he does not get it, were screwed.
> 25 + years ago the manufactures took over the code Committees when big city electrical inspectors and small towns would not fund the travel to conventions.


By the way, Mike Holt changed his mind on this ...I think 10(?) years ago? I've emailed and talked with him on the phone about AFCI trouble-shooting techniques. He gave no indications that AFCIs are a bad idea and was enthusiastic (as is his nature) about being helpful.


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## Greg Sparkovich (Sep 15, 2007)

Forge Boyz said:


> Eaton has removed ground fault sensing from their arc faults. So they will not trip on shared nuetrals anymore. Most of the time when an AFCI picks up wiring problems it is a ground/nuetral fault. We don't need AFCI's. GFCI'S would do the job just fine without the nuisance tripping from appliances and suchlike.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


I still can't get over this. So your example above is:
I had a problem that some guys on my crew couldn't solve. So I switched to another AFCI brand that offers less protection -specifically the kind of protection that I think is best and useful- and now I'm blaming the other product because the inferior product (which ignores what I admit are "most" fault problems) lets me go home early.

WOW.

Glad I did the experiment anyway though. Thanks for that.

I'm done here unless someone has a good question that I can help answer.


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

I have a question. How do you explain to a customer that since you just changed his panel, that you now have to charge another 2-3k to fix up 'objectionable' ground current in the house wiring ... that has been that way for 40 years without issue, but the new breaker won't let it happen.

It's called 'objectionable' current, not 'the house will burn down' current.

And, what do you think the chances are that Mr. Holt "changed" his mind on AFCIs to avoid a lawsuit from the Big Guys.


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## Forge Boyz (Nov 7, 2014)

Greg Sparkovich said:


> I still can't get over this. So your example above is:
> I had a problem that some guys on my crew couldn't solve. So I switched to another AFCI brand that offers less protection -specifically the kind of protection that I think is best and useful- and now I'm blaming the other product because the inferior product (which ignores what I admit are "most" fault problems) lets me go home early.
> 
> WOW.
> ...


No. The guys did solve the problem. Lutron has a paper published that states that some brands of arc faults will trip when more than so many watts of dimmed lighting is on one circuit. It is an issue with Siemens arc faults. SD and Eaton arc faults work better with them.
I agree with you that GFCI protection is much better than AFCI protection. It actually works. Arc fault technology is BS.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

emtnut said:


> And, what do you think the chances are that Mr. Holt "changed" his mind on AFCIs to avoid a lawsuit from the Big Guys.


I lost all respect for him because of this.


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

micromind said:


> I lost all respect for him because of this.


The way I see it. He would be able to prove it, but the Big Guys would still drag it through the courts for years on end. So even if he 'won' , it would cost him hundreds of thousands of dollars.
.... that's IF he won. If he lost, Mike Holt Enterprises would be down the drain.


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## hbiss (Mar 1, 2008)

Nobody is talking about legal action here. Mike is entitled to his opinion and he is free to express it. However, as the head of an educational enterprise that is dedicated to teaching the NEC, he probably decided that it would look better professionally if he kept his opinion on this to himself. It isn't up to him to give a thumbs up or down, just to teach what they say.

However, I think the hundreds of pages we continue to create over on his forum exposing the fraud and condemning AFCIs more than makes up for anything he could say. At this point I don't think there is any professional electrician that has any faith in AFCIs or thinks they should continue to be sold. 

-Hal


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## Greg Sparkovich (Sep 15, 2007)

OK, I read a Lutron paper from _2002_ which pointed out that AFCIs have to be listed for 1,000 watts of dimmable load, but Square D and Eaton are listed for 2,000 watts.
I might have heard about this before, but I wouldn't think about this for my work. I give away $2 LED lightbulbs as a perk. 1,000 watts is almost 90,000 lumens of LED light. that's over 100(!) 60-watt incandescent bulbs equivalence of LED bulbs.
I, um, I have never done an installation like that on a dimmer. 2002 LoL
That is not the kind of criteria I use.



emtnut said:


> I have a question. How do you explain to a customer that since you just changed his panel, that you now have to charge another 2-3k to fix up 'objectionable' ground current in the house wiring ... that has been that way for 40 years without issue, but the new breaker won't let it happen.
> 
> It's called 'objectionable' current, not 'the house will burn down' current.


I'm not sure you know what you're talking about; I just posted about a tenant that was getting shocked because of some very objectionable current ...which can be dangerous ...especially in a system that has a failing ground system.
And I think this probably unlines the differences between the work that you and I do.
I work in old houses where someone may have grounded a receptacle to a water pipe 50 years ago, but a plumber replaced a valve with a shark tooth and there is no longer a solid ground path ...but get into a shower, turn the water on and step onto that cast iron tub with a galvanized steel or cast iron pipe that goes out the soil pipe to the street and...ouch. is that what you want for your family?

I'll answer your question about money.
$2-$3K??? Wow. Maybe I should work for you ...we'd both make more money.

Try $200, maybe $400. Most of my work is panel swaps and trouble shooting. I typically swap a panel, map the house, identify knob and tube and put it on (these days) dual protection breakers. I swapped a 36 breaker panel, added $1500 worth of dual protection breakers and found 4 pairs of circuits sharing a neutral and 4 circuits variously sharing 3 neutrals. That was my most expensive TS ever: $650 including rewiring the basement lights to all work with 1 switch instead of 3. Once you get good at it, it's fast.

In terms of prepping my customers, I do warn them ahead of time. I've written my own google documents and I warn that this may happen. I give away information in google documents like candy. Communication is everything with homeowners. I'm on Yelp (highest rated 1-man shop in my city), Angie's List, Google (highest rated local electrician in "Electricians near me" search), neighborhood facebook group (highest rated), and probably some other lists. I've never paid to advertise and all of my reviews are 5-stars/A. I live in fear of a 4-star review. People rarely mention "price" in my reviews. They talk about "professionalism and knowledge", "communication", "answered all my questions".

So how do I explain charging for an extra? I do it before I ever meet a customer because I understand the process of every job before I show up -but most importantly: I make sure my customers know that too. I set expectations on the first phone call and I don't even do in-person estimates anymore because I know what to explain on a given job and it's a _waste of time_ to drive around. So whether they hire me or not, they should know what to expect.
But to be fair: you probably have your specialties and I have mine: I've been doing this for almost 40 years. I limit my work to strictly residential, I specialize and buy tools like crazy for trouble-shooting and solo wire fishing, things like that. I don't expect everyone to be as specialized as I am. I lucked out by making a wise decision: _I saw an opportunity in my neighborhood_, recognized that most electricians are trained to do tract work and new installations, and placed myself to be invaluable in a neighborhood with beautiful old houses that needed careful work. My old boss, who I worked beside for 13 years did the same work, so I learned from the best. Code and theory is important -especially to a generalist- but because I limit what I do, I rely on decades of experience to meet challenges more than a book. I crack my code book more for fun than for work. Code books won't save your customer from an electrician who charges $2-3K to troubleshoot Knob & Tube.

But never mind. I'm done. You do you.


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

I can only speak for my area, and there aren't many places left with k&t but quite a few with remnants. Usually in the ceiling between the main floor and upstairs.

I never saw a MWBC in k&t. What they did do thou, was run a neutral squirrelled all over, and tap into it where ever it was close to the hot they ran. Often the nearest neutral was a copper pipe.

Many of these places only have 2 circuits anyways, so by you putting in a 2 pole AFCI, you wouldn't get tripping except on the copper pipe trick.

BUT, the neutral (one of the circuits) is being overloaded. It didn't matter back in the day with just lights, but these days people load up those circuits.
I don't think you are doing any favors to your clients by putting in an AFCI. They don't detect (or will ever detect) a glowing connection, and that is how most fires start. There is a lot of info out there if you want to look into it.



Greg Sparkovich said:


> I work in old houses where someone may have grounded a receptacle to a water pipe 50 years ago, but a plumber replaced a valve with a shark tooth and there is no longer a solid ground path
> 
> Code books won't save your customer from an electrician who charges $2-3K to troubleshoot Knob & Tube.


Old house, many times the water pipe WAS the neutral. Later, used for ground. Yes, people are adding in Pex, just another reason NOT to troubleshoot the k&t, just get rid of it.

Not sure what code books have to do with the $2- 3k ?? But that price was to install a new circuit for the branch(s) worked on.
They should be given a price to just rewire it thou. That would be a better service to them.

Good to hear thou, that you're giving the trunkslammers a run for their money


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Some afci need to see 4 or 5 amps before they will function. I suppose a small arc is not dangerous as the larger load arcs may be.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

Dennis Alwon said:


> *Some afci need to see 4 or 5 amps before they will function*. I suppose a small arc is not dangerous as the larger load arcs may be.


That seems odd if true. Once you get to 4 or 5 amps, aren't you well on your way to 15A anyway?


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

joe-nwt said:


> That seems odd if true. Once you get to 4 or 5 amps, aren't you well on your way to 15A anyway?



I am just telling you what I read on a GE afci. Don't know if they are all that way.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I am just telling you what I read on a GE afci. Don't know if they are all that way.


I'm not doubting you. That was written right on the breaker label?


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