# were to go next



## chrisb271 (Jul 6, 2007)

Part P means absolutely zero in business or industrial installations phillip , thats why i and also Frank don't bother with domestic installation, too much hassle.

For commercial and industrial work you need 16 edition (17th when out )

Chris


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## philip657 (Dec 15, 2007)

is that it 
so with that i can do all work in offices and workshops ?

i need to install a 3 phase outlet were i work and i need to know what quilifications i need for that and to sign it off 

Philip


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## chrisb271 (Jul 6, 2007)

fill your boots m8 :laughing:

you don't need all that part p stuff for real jobs,just domestics.

Chris


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## philip657 (Dec 15, 2007)

i did parp p as my mums house was falling apart (electrical side) and i am under going a rewire there. now i have that and the basics people have relised that i am of some use to them (and work are now wanting to use me a LOT) 

hehe 

Philip


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## chrisb271 (Jul 6, 2007)

You can install your 3 ph socket do all your relevant tests on the new circuit and then issue an installation certificate which you will find a model form in the back of the bs 7671.

As long as your company keeps the records your ok.

But there is NO GOVERNING BODY to satisfy like you get with part p

Chris


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## philip657 (Dec 15, 2007)

cool 
so i dont have to do anything else (exept update when due) course wise

just istall and produce a green certificate ?


as i have never worked on 3 phase before (insalation wise) were is the best way to learn how to test 3 phase propley 


Philip


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## chrisb271 (Jul 6, 2007)

Testing three phase is the same as testing single phase , its still live earth your mainly interested in.
On your green sheet you just indicate the highest readings.

i.e if you was testing the cable to the three phase socket and the results were 

brown = 0.25 ohm
black = 0.25 ohm
grey - 0.27 ohm

then you would record the results of the grey phase (L3)

As long as you DON'T TEST BETWEEN PHASES !

It will destroy your loop tester.

Chris


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## philip657 (Dec 15, 2007)

thanks for that i will have a play on weds if i have any problems i know who to call


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## frank (Feb 6, 2007)

Chris

It is really nice to help folks along where we can. But does Phillip really know what he is doing? I get the impression that he is just one step up from DIY.

Phillip. Maybe you can enlarge on your skills. We can be sure to give you good advice if we think you are 'up to the mark'

Frank


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## Trimix-leccy (Dec 4, 2007)

According to communications from NIC I do not need to do an update for the 17th as long as 'I can demonstrate an understanding of the new regulations at the time of my annual Inspection in 2008'. They run courses which are 'advisable' not mandatory. All you need to know for 17th is , cover EVERYTHING with RCDs, also do whatever you want ,as give it a few months and it will all change again so they get more money for the updates [obiously only my opinion an not the views of the 'great and the good' :jester:


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## chrisb271 (Jul 6, 2007)

Frank

phillip has done his 16th edition , the RAF class you as an electrician when you have just that.you and i know that people do two day coarses for it now :whistling2:
I assumed that phillip knew what he was doing.

Ok Phillip,over to you,tell us what you know :laughing:

I may have to eat some humble pie here :laughing:

Chris

Ps i'm used to getting bo**ocked now , my apprentices do it all the time :laughing:


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## chrisb271 (Jul 6, 2007)

Trimix-leccy said:


> According to communications from NIC I do not need to do an update for the 17th as long as 'I can demonstrate an understanding of the new regulations at the time of my annual Inspection in 2008'. They run courses which are 'advisable' not mandatory. All you need to know for 17th is , cover EVERYTHING with RCDs, also do whatever you want ,as give it a few months and it will all change again so they get more money for the updates [obiously only my opinion an not the views of the 'great and the good' :jester:


I was told the same thing by general at the NICEIC.

I like this bit tho

All you need to know for 17th is , cover EVERYTHING with RCDs, also do whatever you want ,as give it a few months and it will all change again so they get more money for the updates


Most people do as they want to anyway :laughing:


Chris


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## Trimix-leccy (Dec 4, 2007)

Forgot THE major change to the regs/insp procedure

There is now a Category 5 installation [previously only 1 o.k.., 2 needs attention. 3..needs urgent attention/dangerous/you will die before dawn....4 used to comply]

Category 5, and I quote, *This installation does NOT comply with the appropriate British Standard and can be deemed dangerous....but hey-nonny-no who gives a feck anyway; give it a few weeks and it will comply! :whistling2: *

*eg 2359h on Dec 31st a bathroom without bonding is a no no [unless done in Hep2O or equiv].....give it another 60 secs and it is o.k. !!!:wallbash:*


*Yeah, I know,RCDs yahda yahda yahda...but you get my drift? or am I being cynical :whistling2: *


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## philip657 (Dec 15, 2007)

i will be honest and i think anyone that has done the same as me will agree 
reson i joined this forum.

i did my part p and then my 16th 
at college i did a little bit or wireing ( basic lighting curcuits) 

and i think when you do these courses it lacks a hell or a lot. it not like going out with a sparky a learn tricks or even just the hands on experecnce that you need to put in a proper lighting curcite with "real" results on the testing side.
when i did my course's they give your a small bit or word u make the curcuit (cable run of about 1m in all) and you test it. 
and thats all you do.

they show you the tables to calculate you cable and mcb size and show you a few of the others. 

and thats it.

i can now say i am qualified but by all means that dont mean i am fermiluer or "good" at puring it homes yet that will all come with experence.

anyone that has taken on a apprentice will know what i am on about as many of the ones i went to college feal the same.

the good thing i have learnt from my full time job (electronics engineer/traine desiger) is neatness and geting things like cable ties and clips right distsences all the same way cables straight and things like not twistsing cables togeather along a run.



Philip


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## chrisb271 (Jul 6, 2007)

hehehe trimy , u hit the nail on the head with the regs, sure you not related to me :laughing:

They put a clause on that category 5 before it went to print


Category 5, and I quote, *This installation does NOT comply with the appropriate British Standard and can be deemed dangerous..UNLESS YOU ARE A RABBI AND HAVE A LIVE CHICKEN..but hey-nonny-no who gives a feck anyway; give it a few weeks and it will comply!


Chris

*


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## chrisb271 (Jul 6, 2007)

Ok Phillip , good of you to be honest.

Do you feel confident to do a three phase socket by yourself ?
Remember its 400v and get across two phases and you usually don't go back for more !

its not much different from single phase except you have three live wires instead of one :laughing:

Make sure its dead before working on it and be extra carefull in the fuseboard ( ooops smack wrist,its a distribution board !!! ( My Ar5e !! :laughing)

Chris


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## philip657 (Dec 15, 2007)

i use 3 phase often i do control electoincs so i feal quite comfedent doing it just what to cheak that i dont need extra quilifications. i will probably do the installation after i have done my 2391 Inspection & Testing course 


Philip


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## frank (Feb 6, 2007)

Philip.
Couple of questions first.

Is English your second language?. Other than Part P and other 'stand alone' add on qualifications you may have - do you have any ELECTRICAL INSTALLATION ENGINEERING QUALIFICATIONS or TIME SERVED EXPERIENCE? I don't feel that you are explaining yourself well or fully understanding the implications of the work you are doing. Short course qualifications which are designed for electricians but undertaken by anyone are not in themselves proof of 'competence - see EAW Act 1989. ie

Part P/Test and Inspection/PAT Testing/Design and Verification/16 Edition etc. From what I understand of the posts you have made so far - keep well away from electricity. I do control systems also and this is wide of the mark in safety terms measured against installing electrical systems.

Do not forget. That even if you do not need qualifications to undertake non domestic electrical work you still need to prove 'competence' in Court.

I wait to be proved wrong. So come back with some surety so that I can - with confidence - advise you correctly


Frank

Chris/Trimix. Am I going overboard on this? Your input please.


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## philip657 (Dec 15, 2007)

english is my first language but i am dislecsic (sp)

as it stands i think i a compatent in some areas i know that not perfect yet.

i have had very little experence. and i have just been signed of as part or napit last week. 


Philip


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## Trimix-leccy (Dec 4, 2007)

Nope, you get my vote on that one!!

SIngle phase [ 1in 1 out] get it wrong and you get a fizz bang pop bang and , as long as you have not got hold of it [which of course you won't as we NEVER work live ] things are usually ok

3 phase , get it wrong and it can result in the family having 1/2 an hour out with the Vicar and a Ham buffet!! you are not invited to the buffet.

Posted this somewhere else recently. Got a call to a compressor fan 240v. Fans kept lasting a few hours and client swapped them himself. Put it down to cheap fans. Socket was fed from adjacent star/delta. This had a 415v control cct, where did the neutral come from??? It didn't! Live off 1 phase and 'neutral' off another 422V across socket . The lad that installed it 'as a favour' admitted to 'not doing much 3 phase...' I await the next call with eager anticipation:laughing:


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## philip657 (Dec 15, 2007)

if we are going on back to the 3 phase question this is why i asked is there a course i need or that would be advisable to take to learn what way it should be done


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## Trimix-leccy (Dec 4, 2007)

Sorry but I really cannot answer that one [I don't actually know the answer]...not being arsey.
The ONLY way used to be by a proper indentured apprenticeship. Mine took about 5 years [long time ago,so it may have been longer] at the end of this time I 'thought' I knew it all...I knew nothing!! Part 'C' followed and then the Approved Electrician ticket took another 2 or more years. Then Technician status took another ??? years I also fitted 3 years at University and an ONC in Senior Engineering in with this. I spent years on building sites, learned to Weld [gas and stick], cable jointing, alarm installation [fire and Security]. Design, repair, install and commission control systems for sheet and plate metal working machinery. Later on went on to Data Installations inluding Fibre Optics and Telecomms. Reading this back it looks big headed, IT IS NOT MEANT TO!!!! I am only tryng to show that a piece of paper is just that...a piece of paper. Experience gained from doing the job 'day in-day-out', thinking that you may never ever get home as the job will never finish. The lsit is virtually endless.
It may well be that 'courses are available'...I do not know, sorry.

Maybe someone else can come in on this one and give their more recent experiences?

I've had lads come to me for a job that had allthe paperwork; never seen a proper 'floorboard' and the biggest SWA worked on was 1.5 x 3 core.:whistling2:


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## philip657 (Dec 15, 2007)

the lads you have had come in sound like they ahve done what i have done and i think it is a floor in the latest system


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## Trimix-leccy (Dec 4, 2007)

Digressing sligtly, but still relevant.

My other 'job' is that of Mixed Gas Diving Instructor. Now this, to the uninitiated, is the deep down dark scary stuff. Loads of cylinders and in the water for hours. 99.9% of divers only use Air to dive on, some of these use a Nitrox mix with more Oxygen in it. Too complex to explain why here. We use, Air, Oxygen, Helium in varying different cylinders at different depths; use the wrong mix at the wrong depth and more than likely you will die. Normal Air Scuba has a recomended max depth {agency dependent} of 40m. We regularly do 100m+ dives.
What I am trying to get at, in a very round about way is this...The basic principles are the same, breath in-breath out, don't hold your breath, and slowly slowly does it, but that is where it stops. People come to me for courses having done maybe a hundred dives. Every credit , but they are all in the same place under the same conditions. They have bits of paper that state Advanced Diver or Deep Dive Specialist and they really are not upto it. Do you see where I am coming from with this?? 
Sorry for going off on a tangent, I do it all the time:whistling2:


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## frank (Feb 6, 2007)

Phillip.

You are not alone in wanting to 'get ahead'. I know of a lad that works cleaning yard rubbish and repairing/painting returned Construction Site Offices. His boss thought it a good idea to send him along to the 5 day Part P Course at the local Technical College to ensure he could safely refit removed for painting sockets and switches etc. Following the 'guidance' he received from the likes of the current batch of training organisations - that have a commercial interest to get as many trainees though the door as possible - he is now out and about doing electrical works for all and sundry in his spare time. Fine on that one. BUT HE DOES NOT REALLY KNOW WHAT HE IS DOING. And here is the crux of the matter. Unless you have undertaken TIME TRAINING and have some technological qualifications too - then installing in wrote does not give you the insight you need. Like Trimex I had the standard apprenticeship. Got the C Technicians. HNC and IMEME. But every day I still scratch my head at some problem or other. The benefit of an apprenticeship is the ' insight' you gain in respect of your occupation. ie. A good pianist plays better when he understands the manner in which pianos are built.

My advice to you is to get some training . your dyslexia not withstanding, and keep a wary eye on your skill levels. At the very most' given your current skill status I would not go beyond NAPIT approvals and limited Domestic Installer Status


FRank


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## chrisb271 (Jul 6, 2007)

frank said:


> Philip.
> 
> Do not forget. That even if you do not need qualifications to undertake non domestic electrical work you still need to prove 'competence' in Court.
> 
> ...


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## Trimix-leccy (Dec 4, 2007)

There is the old addage 'a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing' eg connect the live and neutral the wrong way around on a single phase motor and it will more than likely still work correctly. Connect 2 out of 3 phases the wrong way round on a 3 phase motor and it will run in reverse. Swap over 2 of the phases and it will run correctly [99.9% of the time]. All fairly standard knowledge that any 2nd or 3rd year apprentice [do they still exist?????] should know; with me so far?

Scenario...called to a garage just as the 'engineer' had closed the control box cover and pressed the up button on the screw driven lift. As he pressed the up button the ramp [already at it's lower limit] went downwards and slowly began to screw itself out of the floor.[old ramps used to do this] Oh gosh! he exclaimed as he let go of the buttons and hit the kill switch and turned red [all within 0.1 of a second] Reason for his dilema....? wrong phasing, up contactor is controlled by upper [top]limit switch and vice versa. Since motor was in 'reverse' the bottom limit switch was not 'expecting ' to see the ramp coming so was in no position to o/c the coil control and carried on letting the ramp descend as it 'thought' the ramp was raising:whistling2: ...bit hard to put into words but you get my drift. Always better to 'inch' it first instead of relying solely on what you 'think' is right. 

Scenario...local print works. Wired their own 3 phase and E sockets on overhead trunking, with the occasional 13A socket for maintenance dotted about. All ok until they got a machine with a single phase heater on it [intermittent use]. Works 'Engineer' had a brainwave [more of a Tsunami really] connected the machine heater's live to an incoming phase and neutral to a 13A plug, switched on heater, got hold of plug [touching neutral pin in palm of hand] clambered onto bench, got hold of steel trunking to steady himself, got 240V back feed through heater element via neutral pin and earthed himself to the trunking. 240V arm to arm across his chest  . This was not a good day :no: ...he survived, shaken and humbled. His employers then realised that 'maybe they should revisit their in-house maintenance depts defined scope of work'!

Remember that the '...what if's...' will and frequently do happen!:blink:


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## Trimix-leccy (Dec 4, 2007)

Just read Chrisb response :thumbsup: must have been writing it as I penned my 'novel'

In todays blame culture, everyone is looking to 'shaft you'. Probably a tad over the top . Litigation is rife, Lawyers are sharpenning their pencils, everyone is out to get you. "*....Have you been injured by an Electrician at work? contact Shysters Direct and we will pursue him to the ends of the earth.....'  * Paperwork appears 'to be King'. 

The Spark who I was apprenticed to some 30+ years ago once said, and I still believe it,....'Wiring regs?, they are written for Lawyers not Sparks!'...


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## chrisb271 (Jul 6, 2007)

Sh*t Trimy , you saying that about that bloke getting 240v ( ok why am i hearing a bo**ocking voice in the background saying "its 230volt NOT 240volt  !)
Am i starting to tell myself off now to save others doing it :laughing:

Anyway,where was i ? Oh yeah,i working with another sparks back in the days i would do even domestic stuff with pleasure,like figure :laughing:
Well we was stripping out some VIR out of 5/8th conduit,he undid the coupler and got thrown across the room,there was a full 240volt (No i'm used to saying it so i'm using 240v ) between both ends of the conduit.


Chris


Ps nice Novel above Trimy,you could put Catherine Cookson to shame :laughing:


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## chrisb271 (Jul 6, 2007)

Trimy

Found this picture,

Evidence that no matter how bad things get,there is always someone out there who's gonna shaft ya ! :laughing:


View attachment 326




Chris


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## Trimix-leccy (Dec 4, 2007)

I WAS that mouse!
Seriously though, the bloke did get 240 across him. Twas in the good old days when men were men and sheep were worried!

Picture the scene; lad comes back from college day [bit of stick welding as a 'boredom break]. Clamps 2 sheets of metal together, connects them to earth, gets some o.1 tails [70mm??] connects to 200A HRC fuse [200A apparently 'coz that was what they were using on the dial of the welder, !!!!] shoves a 1/8" rod into the end of the tails and switches on! 

As he was about to strike the arc he was rugby tackled by the biggest site labourer I have seen in my life, bang and a flash but no injuries. Labourer was actually an out of work welder just working to pay his mortgage. You couldn't write it!


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## chrisb271 (Jul 6, 2007)

Ah yes the good old days when all good men wore a knotted handkerchief on their heads said "ay up" a lot and went down the local everynight to play dominoes had half a mild and always had a whippet called 'Eric'

Not much has changed with the sheep,they still have a worried look about them as the Welsh are now wearing kilts as the sheep are used to the sound of the zip.

You wouldn't be able to knock up such implements for welding due to all the health and safety malarky thats about now,the HSE visited a site i was on the other day and asked to see my method statement and risk assessment,i had to stall him whilst i cobbled one up quick 

It takes longer to do the paperwork than actually do the job 


Chris


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## Trimix-leccy (Dec 4, 2007)

We keep a generic set of Method Statements and Risk assesments under the seat in each van, just in case [also found some old dirty PAT labels under there as :whistling2: well]

Each major customer keeps a set as well, you never know.

Main client required a roof gutter to be relined. Cast iron and built -in. No chance of replacement. Found company that made customised liners. Self fit or fitted by 'agent' and warrantied. No brainer. During installation [this is on a main road working at height of 3m single storey behind 2' high parapet wall.] knock on bottom of ladder. HSE Bloke had sat across road videoing said workers. Prohibition notice served...reason

240V tools
no edge protection
no hard hats
no goggles
no insurance
no risk assesment
no method statemet
no ear defenders
no safety harness
no protection of area beneath work
non approved ladder

Picky or what??

Said client was equally to blame as they should have policed the Contractors!!!! They said, and rightly so, 'That is why we used the approved installers!!' All sorted in the end, luckily it was a good while ago!


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## frank (Feb 6, 2007)

The best I ever saw was in the USA. On a day trip to the island of Nantucket MA about three years ago I watched 3 painters at work. They were painting the frontage to a shop. Great Scaffolding. Complete with pavement warning signs and pedestrian protection etc. But a bit overdone in the ' In case I fall off' department. Each was strapped to the scaffolding with full harness. Fine. But they were only three feet off the ground!!!!!!!!!!!!


Frank


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## Trimix-leccy (Dec 4, 2007)

"...any height from which a fall can cause injury....."

My mate fell off the bottom rung of a pair of steps, approx 100mm AFFL. Broke both wrists and had 7 stitches from corner of eye to cheek! Whoops

Another fell 3m, result...dead.

Another fell 4 floors and landed in a flower bed 1m longer and 1m wider than he was, result...got up and walked to Pub and got plastered.

Its not the fall that kills you...it's the landing


CARPE DIEM or in the case of Kylie CARPE ASSUM :whistling2:


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## chrisb271 (Jul 6, 2007)

I recently did the mewps ( Mobile Elevated Work Platforms )ticket again and they bend your ear about the 2005 working at height regulations,they say that even if you are working off a ' Brick ' you are classed at working at height and therefore need to compile a rescue plan !! 

Crikey the mind boggles :laughing:

Chris


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## chrisb271 (Jul 6, 2007)

hehehe ok so i know its immature but i've just been having a giggle about the blokes strapped to the scaffolding,my imagination was running riot,all i could picture was these three blokes gaffer taped to the scaffolding :laughing:

Yes,very juvenile i'm sure !

But then Trimy mentions kylie and it all changes :laughing:

Chris


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## frank (Feb 6, 2007)

A Construction Site visited last year stopped plasterers using the pvc milk crate as a foot stand. They introduced a Health and Safety Approved 'foot up' stand to replace it. The unit has four legs. The crate had four 'sides'. A plasterer - used to the practice of toeing his stand along the floor now has to bend his back every time he wants to use it. But better still. A plasterer on the same site fell off his 12 inch high stand and broke his ankle. Should have been strapped on with a sky bolt!!!!

Frank.


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## Trimix-leccy (Dec 4, 2007)

ChrisB
How much was your MEWP renewal and where.?
Mine has been 'out' for 12 months, only because I could not see the point in renewing it on the off chance I needed it. Has not been required in last 12 months. Mine is scissor and self propelled boom. [last time a client stood the cost]
This client had their own on site picker and lift. Their H&S Bloke would not let us use it as we were not employees. SO we had to hire -in a machine [in those days a licence was not required for hired in kit as long as hirer had shown hiree how to use same]. Then we had to move their machine in order to use ours!! As soon as their H&S bloke left [under a cloud] they paid me to do the course.

Same customer had a new site ,still under control of main contractor. We werecontracted to install a fibre link across the building. This involved working at 3m AFFL, so we 'hired in' a brand new pair of trade step with certs, wrote this into method statement, got main contractor to agree and sign same.All ok. Attended site. H&S bloke says NO STEPS! Showed him piece of paper. Still no steps! My Engineer enquired of the H&S bloke..'what time do you go for lunch?' reply '1200h'. My lad, 'we have a platform coming at 1201h. Pray tell, at what hour will you be returning from your hard earned repaste?' '1330h was the reply'....'Well, make sure you enter the site slowly as we would not want you to crash into the platform as it leaves, now would we'
Job done
All happy


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## cornishsparks (Oct 14, 2007)

*Experiance*

I think you learn most from following old timers some one who can kick your ass every day and make you think for yourself and not just become a one man human chasing machine.
Some of the people i come accross now can only wire things one way or text book fashion and only do house wiring and thats it,
I think you learn some thing new every day from your mistakes still.
17th edition seems like another storm in a tea cup nothing for the experianced sparks to worry about.
The NICIEC has given people a reasonable time to grasp ans implement the changes not jump on some course asap.:jester:


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## chrisb271 (Jul 6, 2007)

Trimy 

I struck a deal with the client who wanted the high work doing,my cherry picker ticket ran out 18 months ago,i held on to the push around one as i purchased one when the 2005 working at height regulations came in.

AFI came out to the site and did our instruction and tests.


Chris


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## Trimix-leccy (Dec 4, 2007)

Ta for that, I'll do a bit of a pre-emptive strike and ring around. I Want to see if I can get a Scissor,Cherry Picker and Tower scaffold ticket at same time. [apparently now I have to have a piece of paper that says I can put my BOSS tower up] Prob give SGB or Hewdens a call :thumbsup:


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## Minky (Dec 30, 2007)

*Wahr*

Guys:-
WAHR 2005 oh what a pain!, I have been extensively involved with this piece of legislation and what everyone seems to forget is that ladders are not banned.I was responsible for checking on the competence of a variety of trades ranging from painters to roofers to sparks to joiners all over a variety of tasks.
To ensure that the company i worked for complied with the relevant legislation is was deemed that the onus of using competent contractors lay firmly at the door of the employer,and thus the onus of employees safety was solely on themselves,as someone said in a previous post in todays blame culture its all about covering your a**,in case of a claim.
Basically assurances had to be received from contractors stating that they had public liability insurance,risk assessments and method statements also had to be made available for inspection and read and understood prior to the commencement of any works including working at height.
Method statements although most generic to all sites within my control were accepted,it was widely recognized that 'site specific' risk assessments were not,i.e. what risks existed for one trade was not applicable to another.Permit to work systems were also employed by sparks throughout.
I found it much cheaper and easier to hire a cherry picker and operative,both at the same time,this also reduced costs training operatives to use machinery that they may only use twice annually if they are lucky.
However be advised that only operatives trained in the risks/operation of the cherry picker/boom lift can be inside the bucket as well as the operator,again for insurance purposes.
Sorry to sound like a jobsworth guys,but to put it into perspective local H and S guy b*ll*cked my apprentice just 2 weeks ago for failing to foot my ladder properly when changing a faulty ballast on a piazza fitting,in minus 9c...apprentices excuse was 'my hands are cold',by the time i was finished with him his ears were red hot   .


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