# Heard a somewhat alarming stat yesterday



## glen1971 (Oct 10, 2012)

So as we were having our morning meeting yesterday, it was announced that we have gone 5 years LTI (Lost Time Incident) Free. Our site manager was recently at a conference in the US with some other industries (nuclear, refining, manufacturing, oil and gas, etc) and they were saying that they average an LTI every 8-10 days. They confirmed the definition of "LTI" and it is the same.. 

Is this a real representation of safety south of the 49th? Are some industries worse than others?


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Tapping maple trees is usually a low LTI industry.

That largely explains it.

In Red China LTL happen four times a day, with suicides at least every month.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

I'm at plus 14 years. They must mean recordables.



telsa said:


> Tapping maple trees is usually a low LTI industry.
> 
> That largely explains it.
> 
> In Red China LTL happen four times a day, with suicides at least every month.


You've never slogged through ass deep snow to set taps.


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## dawgs (Dec 1, 2007)

backstay said:


> I'm at plus 14 years. They must mean recordables. You've never slogged through ass deep snow to set taps.


I have, with snow shoes on and two 7 gallon buckets gathering sap also. Fun times.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

In the US, paper cuts, hang nails, and sharp farts are lost time incidents.


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

InPhase277 said:


> In the US, paper cuts, hang nails, and sharp farts are lost time incidents.


And, if a coworker drops a hammer on your head YOU get drug tested, not them.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

telsa said:


> Tapping maple trees is usually a low LTI industry.
> 
> That largely explains it.
> 
> In Red China LTL happen four times a day, with suicides at least every month.


What they call suicides is what we'd call mid management turnovers.....~CS~


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

glen1971 said:


> Is this a real representation of safety south of the 49th? Are some industries worse than others?


Basic rule of thumb, the larger the 'SAFETY' sign and/or more 'LTI' , the more you should watch your step Glenn

~CS~


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

What "industry" are you in that as a whole can claim 5 years of no lost-time accidents? I can see that for a given site or small company, but no way for an entire industry.

Those numers are often political BS: I've heard companies make claims like that when I knew workers who had recieved LTIs during the same timeframe. But on paper the definitions and circumstances had been fudged just enough to make everything look good for the shareholders.


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## ampman (Apr 2, 2009)

glen1971 said:


> So as we were having our morning meeting yesterday, it was announced that we have gone 5 years LTI (Lost Time Incident) Free. Our site manager was recently at a conference in the US with some other industries (nuclear, refining, manufacturing, oil and gas, etc) and they were saying that they average an LTI every 8-10 days. They confirmed the definition of "LTI" and it is the same..
> 
> Is this a real representation of safety south of the 49th? Are some industries worse than others?


Wow it's because y'all are so great


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## dawgs (Dec 1, 2007)

Big John said:


> What "industry" are you in that as a whole can claim 5 years of no lost-time accidents? I can see that for a given site or small company, but no way for an entire industry. Those numers are often political BS: I've heard companies make claims like that when I knew workers who had recieved LTIs during the same timeframe. But on paper the definitions and circumstances had been fudged just enough to make everything look good for the shareholders.


Must work at a marshmallow or pillow factory.


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## CADPoint (Jul 5, 2007)

The GC on our job is national and has jobs up and down the coast.

We hear about "reportable accidents", whatever... every week.

There are mechanic's and then there construction labors on our job.
I thought I read here that being a construction labor was the #1 most hazardous position to have for incidents of RA, LTI...

Were #3.

Yah be safe out there! 
Look safe, act safe, be safe!


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

InPhase277 said:


> In the US, paper cuts, hang nails, and sharp farts are lost time incidents.


Hey look dude, if you want to have your jollies by making fun of my disability, have at it. I've got thick skin. I wish I had a thicker blow hole.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

CADPoint said:


> The GC on our job is national and has jobs up and down the coast.
> 
> We hear about "reportable accidents", whatever... every week.
> 
> ...



I offer up this sage advice at EVERY toolbox talk: "Remember, if nobody moves, nobody gets hurt!"


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

IslandGuy said:


> Hey look dude, if you want to have your jollies by making fun of my disability, have at it. I've got thick skin. I wish I had a thicker blow hole.


Use your wife's curling iron to burn a nice thick scar on it. Then let it sqeak.


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## AK_sparky (Aug 13, 2013)

I think some of it comes down to each workplaces definitions, policies, etc, etc. 

I worked at a place where I got a small cut and the supervisor had a look and deemed it not a big deal and said that small stuff like that, just get a bandaid and carry on with life, unless you feel it needs to be looked at by a medical professional, which they were fine with too.

The next place I worked at I got a much smaller cut and just went and got a bandaid. Management found out and almost fired me. We had to do a report with time of the incident, what I was doing, what PPE I was wearing, any witnesses, steps to avoid it happening again, etc... I was given a very stern warning that any and all injuries are to be reported.

To be fair though, that second place was full of crazy management. They got so strict on the injury thing that people were reporting EVERYTHING. A couple of people had so many injuries (3 scratches, yes scratches, in a week. That sort of thing.) that they were almost sent to some offsite safety training thing and mental assessment. One guy had enough of it and quit.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

AK_sparky said:


> I think some of it comes down to each workplaces definitions, policies, etc, etc.
> 
> I worked at a place where I got a small cut and the supervisor had a look and deemed it not a big deal and said that small stuff like that, just get a bandaid and carry on with life, unless you feel it needs to be looked at by a medical professional, which they were fine with too.
> 
> ...


Were I work is like this. Every injury, cut, boo boo or accident is investigate. Every time the findings prove it was the employees fault. 
Luckily I'm an old guy and they leave me alone now. I can be very creative with the "Employee Unsafe/Unhealthful" prevention program report sheets they have. 
I figure if it was my fault I was cut, it was their fault because I warned them about it in the past.


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## AK_sparky (Aug 13, 2013)

Wirenuting said:


> Were I work is like this. Every injury, cut, boo boo or accident is investigate. Every time the findings prove it was the employees fault.
> Luckily I'm an old guy and they leave me alone now. I can be very creative with the "Employee Unsafe/Unhealthful" prevention program report sheets they have.
> I figure if it was my fault I was cut, it was their fault because I warned them about it in the past.


Ya, we had a guy that got cut and filled in the "preventative measures" part with "management to supply duller knives". Management proceeded to try to source said "duller knives".....the place was a gong show for a while.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

"Duller knives." Holy chit.

We've got a customer who just totally eliminated all portable ladder use after someone fell off one. If your corrective action every time an accident occurs is to eliminate the equipment involved, then you will quickly find that employees are only allowed to sit motionless on the floor for 8 hours a day because *everything* is capable of hurting them.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

I have this theory that the bigger the safety sign , the less it's really applied.....

~CS~


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## NC Plc (Mar 24, 2014)

Big John said:


> "Duller knives." Holy chit.
> 
> We've got a customer who just totally eliminated all portable ladder use after someone fell off one. If your corrective action every time an accident occurs is to eliminate the equipment involved, then you will quickly find that employees are only allowed to sit motionless on the floor for 8 hours a day because *everything* is capable of hurting them.


The idea that you should protect everyone from themselves. I think it's a pendulum swinging too far in the direction of safety, after swinging so far in the direction of no safety measures at all for so long.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

My issue like I mentioned above: There is real world safety, and then there is on-paper safety. Too many companies are far more concerned with the latter than the former. 

Pay for expert hands-on training and PPE? Pay for additional tools and equipment so guys don't improvise? Pay for proper scheduling so guys aren't rushed or understaffed? Hell no, we're not gonna do any of that. 

Much easier to write a bunch of unrealistic policies on paper that shift all the burden onto the worker when something does occur. 

"OSHA rated tie off at all times above 4 feet." Well, that's impossible far more often than it's possible, so if you fall, shame on you for violating our policy!


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## eric7379 (Jan 5, 2010)

joebanana said:


> And, if a coworker drops a hammer on your head YOU get drug tested, not them.


A few years ago, a piece of machinery caught on fire where I work at. The fire department was automatically called by the alarm company, but the crew that operates the machine already had the fire out by the time the fire department showed up. 

One of the crew members suffered from smoke inhalation and was sent to the hospital for observation. Guess what? Company policy required that he be given a drug test, since he was technically "injured" while on the job. He passed the drug test. This did not sit well with the rest of the crews, since they were risking their lives trying to save the company's equipment. 

The next fire was much, much worse because the crew did not want to help put the fire out. They waited for the fire department to show up and put the fire out.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

Big John said:


> My issue like I mentioned above: There is real world safety, and then there is on-paper safety. Too many companies are far more concerned with the latter than the former.
> 
> Pay for expert hands-on training and PPE? Pay for additional tools and equipment so guys don't improvise? Pay for proper scheduling so guys aren't rushed or understaffed? Hell no, we're not gonna do any of that.
> 
> ...


Sadly, this has become the standard operating procedure for the majority of the industry.


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## glen1971 (Oct 10, 2012)

Big John said:


> What "industry" are you in that as a whole can claim 5 years of no lost-time accidents? I can see that for a given site or small company, but no way for an entire industry.
> 
> Those numers are often political BS: I've heard companies make claims like that when I knew workers who had recieved LTIs during the same timeframe. But on paper the definitions and circumstances had been fudged just enough to make everything look good for the shareholders.





dawgs said:


> *Must work at a marshmallow or pillow factory.*


Close.. It's a 50 year old gas plant that produces and processes about 3,500 E3M3 (123 MMcf) of approximately 40% sour gas (H2S) a day... 
It's just that site, not the whole company or anywhere near the whole industry...


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## Sparkchaser1 (May 17, 2015)

AK_sparky said:


> Ya, we had a guy that got cut and filled in the "preventative measures" part with "management to supply duller knives". Management proceeded to try to source said "duller knives".....the place was a gong show for a while.


Dull knives cause more injuries than sharp knives:thumbsup:


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

No matter what management does to instill safety and provides to assist in working safely there are always the Darwin Award winner attitudes out there. I won't get hurt what can happen people. Many of us did stupid things risking injuries in the process back when we were green.


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## Dash Dingo (Mar 3, 2012)

InPhase277 said:


> In the US, paper cuts, hang nails, and sharp farts are lost time incidents.




What are sharp farts?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

Dash Dingo said:


> What are sharp farts?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You'll know one when it happens.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

Dash Dingo said:


> What are sharp farts?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


They must be the ones that fell serrated as they slip out.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Wirenuting said:


> They must be the ones that fell serrated as they slip out.


Oh...


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

i think we're pretty safe down here, we put these posters up on every job. what kind of posters do you guys use up there?







p.s. that guys our safety director, he's a lawyer (never made sense to me before this thread)


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

MechanicalDVR said:


> No matter what management does to instill safety and provides to assist in working safely there are always the Darwin Award winner attitudes out there. I won't get hurt what can happen people. Many of us did stupid things risking injuries in the process back when we were green.


i disagree. supervision and assessment is part of management responsibilities, if someone disregards safety they should be terminated or better trained before a serious accident.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

hd13 said:


> i disagree. supervision and assessment is part of management responsibilities, if someone disregards safety they should be terminated or better trained before a serious accident.


There isn't always supervision on every job, especially service work. Injuries on jobs I ran were always guys doing things they had been trained not to do. Most common injury being back strain from improper lifting.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

hd13 said:


> i think we're pretty safe down here, we put these posters up on every job. what kind of posters do you guys use up there?
> View attachment 94266
> 
> p.s. that guys our safety director, he's a lawyer (never made sense to me before this thread)


Where is his supervision? He should be retrained and then terminated for acting so foolishly!


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

hd13 said:


> i disagree. supervision and assessment is part of management responsibilities, if someone disregards safety they should be terminated or better trained before a serious accident.


Or better yet, management should focus on actual safety rather than ramming a bunch of idiotic safety rules on us. 

Actual safety is a combination of basic common sense, knowledge and experience. It is rarely found in regulation, and in fact, excessive regulation often results in increased hazard.


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Where is his supervision? He should be retrained and then terminated for acting so foolishly!


oh, i didn't mean that is how we do things. i live in the real world to. we had some guys working in a dusty area (silica) and asked for dust masks and the safety guy told them he couldn't give them any because they weren't fit tested, still let them work in the area though.(the company actually used a safety rule to make the workplace less safe) and they say the wall can't be built.


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

hd13 said:


> i think we're pretty safe down here, we put these posters up on every job. what kind of posters do you guys use up there?
> View attachment 94266
> 
> p.s. that guys our safety director, he's a lawyer (never made sense to me before this thread)


I'm sure he was THINKING safety.


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

TGGT said:


> I'm sure he was THINKING safety.


i showed the boss this picture and told him i think we need bigger signs and maybe streamers (disclosure. that wasn't really my picture or from my company, i have worked for some companies with awesome safety cultures where they truly never had accidents)


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

hd13 said:


> oh, i didn't mean that is how we do things. i live in the real world to. we had some guys working in a dusty area (silica) and asked for dust masks and the safety guy told them he couldn't give them any because they weren't fit tested, still let them work in the area though.(the company actually used a safety rule to make the workplace less safe) and they say the wall can't be built.


That is where I would draw the line. I would advise the boss that it's a safety hazard and an OSHA violation and say do you want us to stop at Grainger and pick the masks up or do you want me to just take the day and go talk to our Union rep? I have only had a couple instances with bosses that were not going to do the right thing. 

When I said in my original post that I did things 'stupid' on my own when starting out I really did. I went into confined spaces without following any set standards just to get things done, I often worked in unsafe ways with ladders and scaffolding, and more than once I climbed beams and steel framing to get access to things while troubleshooting rather than have to leave for a lift or other correct item for the job. I learned by the time I was 35 to stop stupid behavior. Just luck that I was never hurt.


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

glen1971 said:


> So as we were having our morning meeting yesterday, it was announced that we have gone 5 years LTI (Lost Time Incident) Free. Our site manager was recently at a conference in the US with some other industries (nuclear, refining, manufacturing, oil and gas, etc) and they were saying that they average an LTI every 8-10 days. They confirmed the definition of "LTI" and it is the same..
> 
> Is this a real representation of safety south of the 49th? Are some industries worse than others?



it's company by company. i have worked for different companies and at different facilities. some places can't spell OSHA and i have seen others that they truly don't have LTI's and they could be next door to each other or even working at the same facility. some companies (bad large ones) do average 8-10 days. if you don't mind saying what f****** nuclear company was having this many accidents or what geographical area are they in, i wouldn't believe a nuclear company would have that many.


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## Fishbulb (Jun 9, 2016)

> we had some guys working in a dusty area (silica) and asked for dust masks and the safety guy told them he couldn't give them any because they weren't fit tested, still let them work in the area though.(the company actually used a safety rule to make the workplace less safe) and they say the wall can't be built.


Filtration facepieces are explicitly exempted from respirator plan requirements unless the contaminant exceeds the PEL, in which case the workers needed a full respirator program anyway. If the safety guy didn't know or understand this he needs some serious training. He should probably also be fired for letting his blatant ignorance create a hazard.


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## glen1971 (Oct 10, 2012)

hd13 said:


> it's company by company. i have worked for different companies and at different facilities. some places can't spell OSHA and i have seen others that they truly don't have LTI's and they could be next door to each other or even working at the same facility. some companies (bad large ones) do average 8-10 days. if you don't mind saying what f****** nuclear company was having this many accidents or what geographical area are they in, i wouldn't believe a nuclear company would have that many.


It was an overview of what kind of companies were at the meeting.. I didn't hear any specifics of what company, industry or area was worse than any other...


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## Essex (Feb 4, 2015)

Something is amiss here. No way could any company go 5 years without a single minute lost due to an accident. Over here the figures are distorted by a term called RIDDOR. a RIDDOR accident is only an accident by which the injured person has at least 5 days off work. In my business we measure our 'true' accident rate. If someone is hurt. No matter how small we record it. Unfortunately getting the guys on the ground reporting is difficult.


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## glen1971 (Oct 10, 2012)

Essex said:


> Something is amiss here. No way could any company go 5 years without a single minute lost due to an accident. Over here the figures are distorted by a term called RIDDOR. a RIDDOR accident is only an accident by which the injured person has at least 5 days off work. In my business we measure our 'true' accident rate. If someone is hurt. No matter how small we record it. Unfortunately getting the guys on the ground reporting is difficult.


Band-aid is one thing... Even going to the doctor is ok, under the proper circumstances (reporting is the big one). But having someone with a "lost time accident" is a big deal here, and most companies don't want the headaches that go with it, so they'll do what it takes to avoid that claim.. I had to go for stitches one afternoon when the stairs I used to cross a tank berm fell over and I narrowly missed taking a valve in the teeth.. I was paid until I got home that evening from the doctor's office and it was listed as a "medical aid"..


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