# Run into a problem



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

You need to first determine why it's tripping.

Overload?

Short circuit?

Is it an AFCI or GFCI breaker?


----------



## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

480sparky said:


> You need to first determine why it's tripping.
> 
> Overload?
> 
> ...


Did the breaker reset? Or does it trip as soon as you flip it on?


----------



## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

electricnewf said:


> Yesterday one of the breakers tripped in my sister's house. I swapped out the breaker with another one and ruled out that the breaker wasn't the problem.


Please tell us this was not the first thing you did.

How do you check the receptacles with a continuity tester?


----------



## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*run into problem*



Dnkldorf said:


> Please tell us this was not the first thing you did.
> 
> How do you check the receptacles with a continuity tester?


Very good observation.


----------



## Mike Guile (Jan 14, 2010)

*Cold*

My wild guess is, since your in Canada and it's cold as hell. Someone plugged in a space heater and burned up a junction somewhere. It's a shot in the dark


----------



## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

Making the j'box "Hot as Heck"!


----------



## shockme123 (May 13, 2009)

480sparky said:


> You need to first determine why it's tripping.
> 
> Overload?
> 
> ...


It's just a regular 15A breaker. The circuit isn't overloaded because I triple checked to make sure nothing was plugged in. It's definitely a short circuit. I narrowed it down to one of the light fixtures in the circuit being the issue. A day prior the light flickered a few times and then it went out. Might have been a blown bulb but I haven't had the chance to replace it yet, but it won't fix the issue in this case.


----------



## shockme123 (May 13, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> Did the breaker reset? Or does it trip as soon as you flip it on?


The breaker trips as soon as I flip it. Tried another breaker in it's place. Same thing happened, so it's not the breaker.


----------



## shockme123 (May 13, 2009)

Dnkldorf said:


> Please tell us this was not the first thing you did.


Well I always go by the KISS rule - Keep It Simple Stupid. So I rule out the easiest things first, swapping the breaker was one of them. Saved me a trip to the hardware store.



> How do you check the receptacles with a continuity tester?


I'm new to this trade, just trying to help out a family member. Haha maybe it wasn't a continuity tester. I used a setting on a metter and it made a loud noise when I put two of the leads in the receptacle. I'm still trying to learn the terminology.


----------



## electro916 (Jan 16, 2009)

electricnewf said:


> Haha maybe it wasn't a continuity tester. I used a setting on a metter and it made a loud noise when I put two of the leads in the receptacle. I'm still trying to learn the terminology.


If you run a continuity check from hot to neutral it will read due to the bulbs. Remove the bulbs and see if it reads.


----------



## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

electricnewf said:


> Well I always go by the KISS rule - Keep It Simple Stupid. So I rule out the easiest things first, swapping the breaker was one of them. Saved me a trip to the hardware store.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm new to this trade, just trying to help out a family member. Haha maybe it wasn't a continuity tester. I used a setting on a metter and it made a loud noise when I put two of the leads in the receptacle. I'm still trying to learn the terminology.


 
Can I suggest, for your own safety at least, to learn a little more terminology, and a little more about electricity and the dangers associated with it, before attempting to do, what you are doing.

I don't mean to sound rude, but you are going down a dangerous path.

One bad breaker, and you just lost your eye sight......forever.

Is it really worth it?


----------



## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Dnkldorf said:


> Can I suggest, for your own safety at least, to learn a little more terminology, and a little more about electricity and the dangers associated with it, before attempting to do, what you are doing.
> 
> I don't mean to sound rude, but you are going down a dangerous path.
> 
> ...


 
Ive been waiting for speedy to show up and post the speach:whistling2:


----------



## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

electricnewf said:


> Well I always go by the KISS rule - Keep It Simple Stupid. So I rule out the easiest things first, swapping the breaker was one of them. Saved me a trip to the hardware store.
> 
> 
> Well with this KISS principle, had you pulled the wire off the breaker, reset the breaker and tested for voltage at the breaker you would have avoided replacing the breaker.
> ...


Well first year or first week you should know the difference in continuity and voltage testers.


----------



## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

Dnkldorf said:


> Can I suggest, for your own safety at least, to learn a little more terminology, and a little more about electricity and the dangers associated with it, before attempting to do, what you are doing.
> 
> I don't mean to sound rude, but you are going down a dangerous path.
> 
> ...


 
Don't appologize for saving his life.


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

OK, I'll bite. If you know where all the receptacles and lights that are out, try to find the center of the circuit roughly. The next thing to do is to disconnect the downstream or rest of the circuit. If the circuit breaker will hold, you know the problem lies after the point at which you disconnected the wiring. If the circuit breaker trips, then you know its somewhere between the point you disconnected and the circuit breaker panel. Try this. On large circuits, this will help you from having to open every box and fixture.


----------



## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

nrp3 said:


> OK, I'll bite. If you know where all the receptacles and lights that are out, try to find the center of the circuit roughly. The next thing to do is to disconnect the downstream or rest of the circuit. If the circuit breaker will hold, you know the problem lies after the point at which you disconnected the wiring. If the circuit breaker trips, then you know its somewhere between the point you disconnected and the circuit breaker panel. Try this. On large circuits, this will help you from having to open every box and fixture.


Shut the power off, and start looking for the short with a meter you know how to use properly, and leave power off till you find the short. Fix the short, and then apply power when you're done and check.

Our OP isn't familar with test equipment just yet, and doesn't understand electrical hazzards. I wouldn't recommend applying power to anything
while he has things apart.


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I suppose so, though I'm not sure he knows how to use the meters/testers properly either. Not being critical, depends on what he is doing on the job. If he's only doing construction and not on the service end, he probably hasn't learned these skills yet.


----------



## shockme123 (May 13, 2009)

randomkiller said:


> Don't appologize for saving his life.


I know enough about electricity that someone doesn't need to hold my hand. But thanks for the concern.

:rollseyes:


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

electricnewf said:


> I know enough about electricity that someone doesn't need to hold my hand. But thanks for the concern.
> 
> :rollseyes:


 
So it's acceptacle to energize a circuit that contained a short without knowing if the short has been cleared?

Does that sound logical? Does that sound _safe_?


----------



## egads (Sep 1, 2009)

electricnewf said:


> I know enough about electricity that someone doesn't need to hold my hand. But thanks for the concern.
> 
> :rollseyes:


These are very experienced folks. They, we, or at least I would look to a defective breaker last, after troubleshooting for shorts. If a circuit is not overloaded, a short is the next logical thing. With the circuit de-engergized, you test for continuity across conductors where there should not be any. (provided the lamps and other loads are removed) flipping on tripped breakers is not safe practice, unless you know it was overloaded and you have removed the overload. So don't diss the more experienced who are trying to help. And save you from yourself.


----------



## william sparky (Jan 30, 2010)

electricnewf said:


> I know enough about electricity that someone doesn't need to hold my hand. But thanks for the concern.
> 
> :rollseyes:


check the light switches


----------



## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

electricnewf said:


> I know enough about electricity that someone doesn't need to hold my hand. But thanks for the concern.
> 
> :rollseyes:


No, you obviously don't.


----------



## Grimlock (Aug 4, 2009)

Ok, here’s an old trick of the trade to help you determine if the fault is cleared.

Step 1. Walk the house and note what is dead, turn all light switches to the off position. Unplug all appliances plugged into the circuit.

Step 2. Disconnect the circuit at the breaker and wire in a Rubber Pigtail Lamp holder between the breaker and the circuit. Screw in a 60 Watt lamp.



















Step 3. Turn on the breaker. If the lamp lights up full bright then the short has not been cleared. If the lamp is very dim then the short has either been cleared and a typical load still exists on the circuit or the fault exists on one of the loads you removed earlier such as on a switch leg or an appliance you unplugged.

Step 4. If the lamp is dim turn the breaker off. Turn one light switch on and return to the panel. Turn the breaker on and notice the difference. If it is slightly brighter then you have not yet found the location of the fault. If it is full bright then you have found the location of the fault. 



Continue this process to locate the fault. Make sure you turn off the switches you have already checked as you go. You may also have to disconnect portions of the plug circuit to locate the fault if it isn't in a fixture or switch leg.

Make sure you turn the breaker off EVERY TIME you leave the panel!


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Grimlock said:


> ..........
> Step 4. If the lamp is dim turn the breaker off. Turn one light switch on and return to the panel. Turn the breaker on and notice the difference. If it is slightly brighter then you have not yet found the location of the fault. If it is full bright then you have found the location of the fault. ..........


Why bother turning the breaker on and off? If there's a short downstream from a switch, turning the switch on will not trip the breaker if the 60w lamp is still in series. It will simply cause the lamp to come back up to full brightness.


----------



## Grimlock (Aug 4, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Why bother turning the breaker on and off? If there's a short downstream from a switch, turning the switch on will not trip the breaker if the 60w lamp is still in series. It will simply cause the lamp to come back up to full brightness.


 
For safety, I've used this trick many times and used to leave the breaker on until I got a nice zap when I was pulling a receptacle out. Also he is somewhat new to this type of work so I think he should avoid any hot work that he can.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Grimlock said:


> For safety, I've used this trick many times and used to leave the breaker on until I got a nice zap when I was pulling a receptacle out. Also he is somewhat new to this type of work so I think he should avoid any hot work that he can.


If you're pulling devices out of the wall, yes, turn the breaker off.

But to turn it off just so you can turn a switch on?


----------



## Grimlock (Aug 4, 2009)

480sparky said:


> If you're pulling devices out of the wall, yes, turn the breaker off.
> 
> But to turn it off just so you can turn a switch on?


Yea, I know it's overkill but I think when you give advice to an apprentice or someone with little to no experience you have to be. I'd hate for him to leave it on, hanging out of the panel up against something flammable and decide to take a break. You never know.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Grimlock said:


> Yea, I know it's overkill but I think when you give advice to an apprentice or someone with little to no experience you have to be. I'd hate for him to leave it on, hanging out of the panel up against something flammable and decide to take a break. You never know.


 
Well, it just goes to show you can't fix stupid.:no:


----------



## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Well, it just goes to show you can't fix stupid.:no:


 
Well you cant fix it but just like sticking something in a hot receptacle (well before tamperproof) You usally only do it one time!:whistling2:
If you do it twice yea you cant fix stupid like that!:thumbup:


----------



## Old Spark (Nov 18, 2008)

I would not be holding your hand.....I don't think you know near what you think you do. I agree, remove all loads then with you continuity tester start checking. Between the hot and neutral at an outlet you should have no continuity, between the hot and ground pin you should have no continuity. I suspect you will have continuity at one of both of those. Start opening up any j-boxes, pull out outlets, you should find something burned up. Hopefully you don't have aluminum wire. It was famous for going bad under a staple inside the wall. With copper, you will find something at one of the places of connection or splicing. ..............unless someone has recently run a nail into a wire somewhere.


----------



## Mr. Sparkle (Jan 27, 2009)

electricnewf said:


> I know enough about electricity that someone doesn't need to hold my hand. But thanks for the concern.
> 
> :rollseyes:


Main Entry: *iro·ny*
Pronunciation: \ˈī-rə-nē _also_ ˈī(-ə)r-nē\
Function: _noun_ 
Inflected Form(s): _plural_ *iro·nies*
Etymology: Latin _ironia,_ from Greek _eirōnia,_ from _eirōn_ dissembler
Date: 1502
*1* *:* a pretense of ignorance and of willingness to learn from another assumed in order to make the other's false conceptions conspicuous by adroit questioning —called also _Socratic irony_
*2 a* *:* the use of words to express something other than and especially the opposite of the literal meaning *b* *:* a usually humorous or sardonic literary style or form characterized by irony *c* *:* an ironic expression or utterance
_*3 a (1)*_ *:* incongruity between the actual result of a sequence of events and the normal or expected result _(2)_ *:* an event or result marked by such incongruity *b* *:* incongruity between a situation developed in a drama and the accompanying words or actions that is understood by the audience but not by the characters in the play —called also _dramatic irony, tragic irony_


----------



## I_get_shocked (Apr 6, 2009)

Removing the light bulbs that are blown should have been your first move. Im betting the filament is the short.



electricnewf said:


> I know enough about electricity that someone doesn't need to hold my hand. But thanks for the concern.
> 
> :rollseyes:


No offense, but if this was true this thread would not exist.


----------



## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*problem*



electricnewf said:


> Yesterday one of the breakers tripped in my sister's house. I swapped out the breaker with another one and ruled out that the breaker wasn't the problem. There are 5 receptacles and 3 lights connected to the circuit. I checked all the receptacles with a continuity tester and all of them check out OK. I can't reach two of the lights, but if one was dead, then could that interrupt current going through the circuit. Any other ideas would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> Thanks!


How old is her house? The reason I ask is that I have had a couple of OLD,OLD homes that the homeowner had repeatedly twisted the light bulb too tightly. The insulation had crumbled in the box and when the lamp holder socket twisted, the return and the neutral together the fuse blew...You have to find a way to get to the fixtures.


----------

