# Replacing two prong receptacles



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

AFCI requirement depends on how your AHJ interprets it. If they require AFCIs, you'd need AFCI breakers, then GFCI receptacles.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Why did you pull arc faults into this? You can GFI protect it, with a breaker or a GFCI receptacle


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Flytyingyaker said:


> The code states that you must replace with a gfi and label each protected by that gfi "gfi protected" "no equipment ground".
> 
> Would I be aloud to just put gfi breakers on those circuits or would I be required to put the circuits on arc fault breakers and then find the first outlet in each circuit and install a gfi so that the circuit is arc fault protected as well as gfi protected?


Sell a complete re-wiring of the house..:thumbsup:

*250.130 Equipment Grounding Conductor Connections.*
Equipment grounding conductor connections at the source
of separately derived systems shall be made in accordance
with 250.30(A)(1). Equipment grounding conductor connections
at service equipment shall be made as indicated in
250.130(A) or (B). For replacement of non–grounding-type
receptacles with grounding-type receptacles and for branchcircuit
extensions only in existing installations that do not
have an equipment grounding conductor in the branch circuit,
connections shall be permitted as indicated in 250.130(C).

*382.10 Uses Permitted.* Nonmetallic extensions shall be permitted
only in accordance with 382.10(A), (B), and (C).
(A) From an Existing Outlet. The extension shall be from
an existing outlet on a 15- or 20-ampere branch circuit. Where
a concealable nonmetallic extension originates from a non–
grounding-type receptacle, the installation shall comply with
250.130(C), 406.4(D)(3)(b), or 406.4(D)(3)(c).

_*406.4(D) Replacements*_. Replacement of receptacles shall comply
with 406.4(D)(1) through (D)(6), as applicable.
(1) Grounding-Type Receptacles. Where a grounding
means exists in the receptacle enclosure or an equipment
grounding conductor is installed in accordance with
250.130(C), grounding-type receptacles shall be used
and shall be connected to the equipment grounding conductor
in accordance with 406.4(C) or 250.130(C).
(2) Non–Grounding-Type Receptacles. Where attachment
to an equipment grounding conductor does not exist in the
receptacle enclosure, the installation shall comply with
(D)(2)(a), (D)(2)(b), or (D)(2)(c).
(a) A non–grounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted
to be replaced with another non–grounding-type receptacle(
s).
(b) A non–grounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted
to be replaced with a ground-fault circuit interruptertype
of receptacle(s). These receptacles shall be marked
“No Equipment Ground.” An equipment grounding conductor
shall not be connected from the ground-fault circuitinterrupter-
type receptacle to any outlet supplied from the
ground-fault circuit-interrupter receptacle.
(c) A non–grounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted
to be replaced with a grounding-type receptacle(s)
where supplied through a ground-fault circuit interrupter.
Grounding-type receptacles supplied through the groundfault
circuit interrupter shall be marked “GFCI Protected”
and “No Equipment Ground.” An equipment grounding
conductor shall not be connected between the groundingtype
receptacles.
(3) Ground-Fault Circuit-Interrupters. Ground-fault
circuit-interrupter protected receptacles shall be provided
where replacements are made at receptacle outlets that are
required to be so protected elsewhere in this Code.
(4) Arc-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection. Where a
receptacle outlet is supplied by a branch circuit that requires
arc-fault circuit interrupter protection as specified
elsewhere in this Code, a replacement receptacle at this
outlet shall be one of the following:
(1) A listed outlet branch circuit type arc-fault circuit interrupter
receptacle(2) A receptacle protected by a listed outlet branch circuit
type arc-fault circuit interrupter type receptacle
(3) A receptacle protected by a listed combination type
arc-fault circuit interrupter type circuit breaker
This requirement becomes effective January 1, 2014.
(5) Tamper-Resistant Receptacles. Listed tamper-resistant
receptacles shall be provided where replacements are made at
receptacle outlets that are required to be tamper-resistant elsewhere
in this Code.
(6) Weather-Resistant Receptacles. Weather-resistant receptacles
shall be provided where replacements are made at
receptacle outlets that are required to be so protected elsewhere
in this Code.
(E) Cord-and-Plug-Connected Equipment. The installation
of grounding-type receptacles shall not be used as a
requirement that all cord-and-plug-connected equipment be
of the grounded type.
Informational Note: See 250.114 for types of cord-andplug-
connected equipment to be grounded.

*406.8 Noninterchangeability.* Receptacles, cord connectors,
and attachment plugs shall be constructed such that
receptacle or cord connectors do not accept an attachment
plug with a different voltage or current rating from that for
which the device is intended. However, a 20-ampere T-slot
receptacle or cord connector shall be permitted to accept a
15-ampere attachment plug of the same voltage rating.
Non–grounding-type receptacles and connectors shall not
accept grounding-type attachment plugs.


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## jimmy21 (Mar 31, 2012)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Why did you pull arc faults into this? You can GFI protect it, with a breaker or a GFCI receptacle


I'm guessing the circuit is required to be afci protected. I would think, yes, you would need an afci breaker and a gfci receptacle. Which seems stuoid because doesn't an afci breaker do everything a gfci breaker does and then some?


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

jimmy21 said:


> I'm guessing the circuit is required to be afci protected. I would think, yes, you would need an afci breaker and a gfci receptacle. Which seems stuoid because doesn't an afci breaker do everything a gfci breaker does and then some?


 

No, it doesn't operate the same, and doesn't detect the same type of faults.


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## k_buz (Mar 12, 2012)

You don't née to provide AFCI protection on receptacle replacements until 1/1/14.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

k_buz said:


> You don't née to provide AFCI protection on receptacle replacements until 1/1/14.


 
For whom and what state that required that date?

Merci,
Marc


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## 347sparky (May 14, 2012)

2 prong ungrounded receptical not required to be replaced with GFI but can be replaced with new ungrounded 2 prong. It is *permitted* to be replaced with GFI.


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## k_buz (Mar 12, 2012)

frenchelectrican said:


> For whom and what state that required that date?
> 
> Merci,
> Marc


NEC 2011

I forget the exact article....I'm on my phone


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## BlueearthDave (Nov 18, 2012)

DO you just have a bad two prong recep? why are you overthinking this? 
or are we not getting told something????

As already stated. Two prong =replace with two prong, or put in a GFI recep. I also am not sure why you have brought AFI into this. You only need to AFI if its a new circuit since that code was written. 
You are turning a $50.00 service call into $$$hundreds.


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*?*



jimmy21 said:


> I'm guessing the circuit is required to be afci protected. I would think, yes, you would need an afci breaker and a gfci receptacle. Which seems stuoid because doesn't an afci breaker do everything a gfci breaker does and then some?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

frenchelectrican said:


> for whom and what state that required that date?
> 
> Merci,
> marc


406.4(d)(4)


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## Flytyingyaker (Jun 9, 2011)

BlueearthDave said:


> DO you just have a bad two prong recep? why are you overthinking this?
> or are we not getting told something????
> 
> As already stated. Two prong =replace with two prong, or put in a GFI recep. I also am not sure why you have brought AFI into this. You only need to AFI if its a new circuit since that code was written.
> You are turning a $50.00 service call into $$$hundreds.


I got a guy who has a house that someone has already replaced two prong outlets with three prong through out the entire house. So all I want to know is instead of spending time trying to find the first outlet in the circuits and putting a gfi on it can I just protect those circuits with a gfi breaker? I do not see a reason why I can't. 

Forget about the arc fault I already answered my own question.

Oh and there is no such thing as a $50 service call. I can't survive on that.


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## TheWolf (Oct 10, 2012)

If you put circuit on gfi, lets say wire in appliance bonds to shell of appliance somehow. Now shell is live , if human somehow touches neutral wire and shell, like say holding toaster and unplugging with finger pulling neutral side of cord cap then can be shocked without gfi tripping. Can't they? So gfi isn't same as grounded outlet.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

frenchelectrican said:


> For whom and what state that required that date?
> 
> Merci,
> Marc


*NEC 2011
*
*406.4(D) Replacements*. Replacement of receptacles shall comply
with 406.4(D)(1) through (D)(6), as applicable.(4) Arc-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection.
Where a receptacle outlet is supplied by a branch circuit that requires
arc-fault circuit interrupter protection as specified
elsewhere in this Code, a replacement receptacle at this
outlet shall be one of the following:
(1) A listed outlet branch circuit type arc-fault circuit interrupter
receptacle (2) A receptacle protected by a listed outlet branch circuit
type arc-fault circuit interrupter type receptacle
(3) A receptacle protected by a listed combination type
arc-fault circuit interrupter type circuit breaker
This requirement becomes effective *January 1, 2014.*


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## BlueearthDave (Nov 18, 2012)

That is different than how your first post reads. 
If someone else has already put three prong receps as replacements to two prong. How are they wired? is the neutral and ground bonded together? or is there nothing connected to the ground? You may need to deal with each recep. 
like and kind replacement is allowed up here in the Northwest.


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## jimmy21 (Mar 31, 2012)

mcclary's electrical said:


> No, it doesn't operate the same, and doesn't detect the same type of faults.



I know how they work and what they are both designed for but i was thinking an afci would trip if any current escaped to ground (in addition to tripping for other reasons, such as if an arc was detected).


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

jimmy21 said:


> I know how they work and what they are both designed for but i was thinking an afci would trip if any current escaped to ground (in addition to tripping for other reasons, such as if an arc was detected).


I hope this helps.

http://www.geindustrial.com/cwc/Dispatcher?REQUEST=PRODUCTS&id=cb-qafci

*Branch/Feeder AFCI* 

A Branch/Feeder AFCI has the ability to detect and neutralize a parallel arc fault, which is the unintentional flow of electricity between two separate wires. There are three types of parallel arc faults: line-to-line, line-to-ground, and line-to-neutral. The Branch/Feeder AFCI is permitted by the 1999-2005 NEC® Code. *Combination AFCI*

GE's Combination AFCI delivers 5 kinds of protection: 

1.Parallel protection − Just like its Branch/Feeder counterpart, Combination AFCI can detect and neutralize parallel arc faults
2.Series Protection − A series arc fault is the unintended flow of electricity over a gap within a single wire. These arc faults were not detectable until advanced technology allowed the development of the Combination AFCI breaker.
3.Ground protection − Arcing between a single conductor and a ground line
4.Overload protection
5.Short circuit protection
The Combination AFCI represents advancement in technology and home protection. The 2008 NEC® Code mandates that all dwelling areas in the home have Combination AFCI protection:


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## HaloelectricCali (Jul 25, 2012)

i usually just replace with new 2 prong outlets. a heck of a lot cheaper than installing gfi's..... but i have had a few customers want gfi. it looks so funny walking into a house with 25 gfi's..... just sell. although a rewire is allways good, but selling that in a rewire is not as easy. so just install 2 prong plugs!!!!!


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