# Worker's Rights



## RIVETER

The original premise for a union was to have an entity that would help secure worker's rights. It has evolved, though, into securing wages, benefits and the like. Why is that wrong? The upper level people make GOOD money. Why don't they share? Alone, I cannot go in and ask for an increase for fear of retribution. With my brothers, and sisters, I feel more comfortable in doing so. The COMPANY could not exist without their WORKFORCE. I'm just saying....


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## oldman

and the workforce would be twiddling their thumbs without people risking everything they have to hire them...either directly as employees, or by hiring the companies they work for....

but hey, socialism is on it's way, so hold your 'spread the wealth' theory for a few more years and you'll be set...


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## RIVETER

oldman said:


> and the workforce would be twiddling their thumbs without people risking everything they have to hire them...either directly as employees, or by hiring the companies they work for....
> 
> but hey, socialism is on it's way, so hold your 'spread the wealth' theory for a few more years and you'll be set...


In two paragraphs you are mixing two concepts...AS far as people risking everything, they generally do not risk unless THEY have a plan and a product that they think CAN SELL. And, they think that they cannot do it by themselves.

Socialism...no way. I do not believe in RE-DISTRIBUTING of the wealth. Those who work for it ...GET IT.


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## oldman

RIVETER said:


> The upper level people make GOOD money. Why don't they share?


looks like socialism to me....


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## oldman

everyday, people get up and literally risk everything they have on their dreams...some succeed, some crash and fail...you feel that this risk is not worth more than you showing up for 8 hrs and collecting a paycheck?


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## user4818

oldman said:


> looks like socialism to me....


Nah, in the new America the janitor or the homless guy on the street is just as entitled to be the CEO of a Fortune 500 company.


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## oldman

Peter D said:


> Nah, in the new America the janitor or the homless guy on the street is just as entitled to be the CEO of a Fortune 500 company.


it's coming...we have a 'Pay Czar' now....throw in more taxes for those who do make a few dollars more, and soon we'll all be living high on the field mouse...


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## RIVETER

oldman said:


> looks like socialism to me....


oldman...I do not know how old you are, but I hope that you have not given up. There is a great difference between SHARING THE WEALTH and EARNING THE WEALTH. If you don't believe that your labor does entitle you to a PIECE of the action, live with it. Don't bring the rest of us down.


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## oldman

RIVETER said:


> oldman...I do not know how old you are, but I hope that you have not given up. There is a great difference between SHARING THE WEALTH and EARNING THE WEALTH. If you don't believe that your labor does entitle you to a PIECE of the action, live with it. Don't bring the rest of us down.


i know this....i can't pay a guy $200,000 a year, if he only generates $150,000 a year...no matter how legendary he is in his own mind...


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## RIVETER

*kWkorker's Rights*



oldman said:


> i know this....i can't pay a guy $200,000 a year, if he only generates $150,000 a year...no matter how legendary he is in his own mind...


If your figures are honest, I am with you. I would also counsel you as to how to hire a workforce, qualified for the industry that you are in.


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## Bob Badger

oldman said:


> i know this....i can't pay a guy $200,000 a year, if he only generates $150,000 a year...no matter how legendary he is in his own mind...


And thats it right there. :thumbsup:


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## RIVETER

*Worker's righta*



Bob Badger said:


> And thats it right there. :thumbsup:


I cannot possibly know your personal hiring STARTING salaries but I would be glad to work for $200,000 DOLLARS. How many of those guys do you have on your payroll?


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## oldman

RIVETER said:


> If your figures are honest, I am with you. I would also counsel you as to how to hire a workforce, qualified for the industry that you are in.


i thought that was the purpose of the IBEW?


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## RIVETER

oldman said:


> i thought that was the purpose of the IBEW?


I've worked, extensively, with the IBEW, and they have well qualified people, and trained. There will always be a percentage of people who lack their own self respect, and I know that you can get rid of them...You are not kidding anyone.


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## oldman

RIVETER said:


> I've worked, extensively, with the IBEW, and they have well qualified people, and trained. There will always be a percentage of people who lack their own self respect, and I know that you can get rid of them...You are not kidding anyone.


ok...you're right...it's black and white, and good always wins...


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## RIVETER

oldman said:


> ok...you're right...it's black and white, and good always wins...


That is not the way I feel,(BLACK and WHITE). 

Are you a contractor?


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## oldman

RIVETER said:


> That is not the way I feel,(BLACK and WHITE).
> 
> Are you a contractor?


nah...i'm just a guy who gives money away


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## RIVETER

*kWorker's Rights*



oldman said:


> nah...i'm just a guy who gives money away


Okay, then, your answer is a non-answer.Joking your way out of a serious conversation has it's downfalls.


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## BuzzKill

oldman said:


> looks like socialism to me....


 During the '08 campaign, "The One" said it all to Joe the Plumber: "It's best to spread the wealth around."
A presidential candidate said this and people IGNORED it...amazing....the entitlement attitude of Americans is disgusting. Our country was not founded on these principles.


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## brian john

RIVETER said:


> The original premise for a union was to have an entity that would help secure worker's rights. It has evolved, though, into securing wages, benefits and the like. Why is that wrong? The upper level people make GOOD money. Why don't they share? Alone, I cannot go in and ask for an increase for fear of retribution. With my brothers, and sisters, I feel more comfortable in doing so. The COMPANY could not exist without their WORKFORCE. I'm just saying....


In a open shop people go in every days and ask for a raise. Now this may surprise you but they do it because they feel they are worth it and they have a set. They do not work on some mob mentality were the hard workers get the same as the slackers and have to go at it as a gang.

As for brothers and sisters that is the DUMBEST crap. My brothers and sisters come from my mother and are related to me by blood, not some new concept of working for the MOTHER load.

And if you and your "bro's" disappeared tomorrow the company would struggle for a day or two and replace you, possible with a better qualified person.


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## BigCL

RIVETER said:


> The original premise for a union was to have an entity that would help secure worker's rights. It has evolved, though, into securing wages, benefits and the like. Why is that wrong? The upper level people make GOOD money. Why don't they share? Alone, I cannot go in and ask for an increase for fear of retribution. With my brothers, and sisters, I feel more comfortable in doing so. The COMPANY could not exist without their WORKFORCE. I'm just saying....


Why would anyone be in fear of losing his job for asking for more money? People do it everyday. Either you get it or you don't. I just don't understand the fear factor.


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## brian john

BigCL said:


> Why would anyone be in fear of losing his job for asking for more money? People do it everyday. Either you get it or you don't. I just don't understand the fear factor.



It comes from never having to stand up and be accounted for what you do, not for belonging to an organization.


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## RIVETER

brian john said:


> In a open shop people go in every days and ask for a raise. Now this may surprise you but they do it because they feel they are worth it and they have a set. They do not work on some mob mentality were the hard workers get the same as the slackers and have to go at it as a gang.
> 
> As for brothers and sisters that is the DUMBEST crap. My brothers and sisters come from my mother and are related to me by blood, not some new concept of working for the MOTHER load.
> 
> And if you and your "bro's" disappeared tomorrow the company would struggle for a day or two and replace you, possible with a better qualified person.


 I am not sure where you are working, but are there any slackers there?And, if you died tomorrow, or today, wouldn't your company go on, after a day or two?

The term BROTHER denotes solidarity and brotherhood
and the willingness to support all people...as if they were your brother.


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## brian john

RIVETER said:


> I am not sure where you are working, but are there any slackers there?And, if you died tomorrow, or today, wouldn't your company go on, after a day or two?
> 
> The term BROTHER denotes solidarity and brotherhood
> and the willingness to support all people...as if they were your brother.


Yeah I have been exposed to the brotherhood. I'll stick to my real family thank you.

In my company I try to weed out slackers it is very easy when all the men are service drivers 2 men to a truck.

If I died tomorrow someone would step up and take my spot in a heart beat.
After my heart attack I hired two men to take my spot. Either they would take over or my competitors would take over my market share.


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## user4818

RIVETER said:


> The term BROTHER denotes solidarity and brotherhood
> and the willingness to support all people...as if they were your brother.


Do you realize believe that members of a trade union are all about solidarity and brotherhood above their own personal interests? I submit that if you do, you do not understand human nature very well.


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## LJSMITH1

RIVETER said:


> The term BROTHER denotes solidarity and brotherhood
> and the willingness to support all people...as if they were your brother.


 
Wow..

I guess when you mean "support all people" you are really talking about _*only*_ those people in the brotherhood, right? Not your neighbor, who is in management somewhere else...:blink:


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## splitphase

RIVETER said:


> The original premise for a union was to have an entity that would help secure worker's rights. It has evolved, though, into securing wages, benefits and the like. Why is that wrong? The upper level people make GOOD money. Why don't they share? Alone, I cannot go in and ask for an increase for fear of retribution. With my brothers, and sisters, I feel more comfortable in doing so. The COMPANY could not exist without their WORKFORCE. I'm just saying....


Upper level people are used to being upper level, and can't relate to lower level people. Especially when they were born upper level people, like most of the politicians in this country, and large corporation owners. They are used to having servants/maids, etc., their family name and money to keep them out of trouble all the time. They have never done hard labor, and many of them cannot understand the fact that they are NOT allowed to have slaves.

So as long as you cannot have a factory/mall/wearhouse built in a 3rd world country and shipped into the US....... We will at least have the few construction jobs we have to look forward to until we allow slavery in this country again.... Then the company will exist without our workforce, and the skells will take care of it.

They will complain like crazy about how the americans cost way too much to employ, but this jerkoff will have 2 billion in profits for the year 

The company normally has people paid full time to find a cheaper work force, not to mention all the professional union busters out there, and the professional intimidators, and disinformation spreaders companies hire to intimidate employees....


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## Bob Badger

splitphase said:


> They will complain like crazy about how the Americans cost way too much to employ,


But that is the truth in this world wide economy.

We can dislike it, but it remains a fact.

Times have changed greatly and none of it really good for us. America was so far out in front during the 50, 60s and into the 70s we could expect a lot. That is no longer the case and as these other countries move up we will be moving down. Get used to it and plan for it.


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## knowshorts

splitphase said:


> They will complain like crazy about how the americans cost way too much to employ, but this jerkoff will have 2 billion in profits for the year


Could you please name this jerkoff?


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## user5941

RAT shop workers beg on their knees while kissing the bossess ass for a penny raise at the same time stabbing their co workers in the back so they can take their penny that they earned.Hey boss I will supply the ladder,Hey boss I will use my own truck,Hey boss I will work a few minutes off the clock,Hey boss I don't need help carrying that 200LB gear,Hey boss you don't have to pay drive time,Hey boss I will work it HOT.


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## Bob Badger

rewire said:


> RAT shop workers beg on their knees while kissing the bossess ass for a penny raise at the same time stabbing their co workers in the back so they can take their penny that they earned.Hey boss I will supply the ladder,Hey boss I will use my own truck,Hey boss I will work a few minutes off the clock,Hey boss I don't need help carrying that 200LB gear,Hey boss you don't have to pay drive time,Hey boss I will work it HOT.



I don't know if it is funny or sad that you belive all that load of crap.:laughing:

Yes, some non-union shops suck no doubt at all about that.

Some halls suck, no doubt about that either.


But heres the thing, I belive in being a man and watching out for myself. I don't need a mob to get what I need or want. If I worked at a shop that tried to take advantage of me I would .... and pay attention becuse it's pretty radical .... I would quit and work at another shop.

Its called taking care of yourself, don't wait for someone to hold your hand. If you can't take care of yourself then your screwed and you should be.


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## Thomps

rewire said:


> RAT shop workers beg on their knees while kissing the bossess ass for a penny raise at the same time stabbing their co workers in the back so they can take their penny that they earned.Hey boss I will supply the ladder,Hey boss I will use my own truck,Hey boss I will work a few minutes off the clock,Hey boss I don't need help carrying that 200LB gear,Hey boss you don't have to pay drive time,Hey boss I will work it HOT.


 

:jester:

It's absolutely unbelievable that you could spout this much nonsense with so much conviction.


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## user5941

Bob Badger said:


> I don't know if it is funny or sad that you belive all that load of crap.:laughing:
> 
> Yes, some non-union shops suck no doubt at all about that.
> 
> Some halls suck, no doubt about that either.
> 
> 
> But heres the thing, I belive in being a man and watching out for myself. I don't need a mob to get what I need or want. If I worked at a shop that tried to take advantage of me I would .... and pay attention becuse it's pretty radical .... I would quit and work at another shop.
> 
> Its called taking care of yourself, don't wait for someone to hold your hand. If you can't take care of yourself then your screwed and you should be.


 A RAT will never admit to being a RAT they will hide behind the viel of "I,m just looking out for #1" to justify their RAT behavior.The funny part is that the RAT is so focused on the knife he is sticking in the back of one of his coworkers he totally misses the knife prepared to be shoved in his own back.The RAT is the dream employee of every boss as they can be munipulated with promises of power and money that will always be held just outside their grasp.The RAT will fight his fellow workers over the crumbs that fall from the table and boast of the fact that he will eat shat eagerly if it will gain him favor.The RAT mentality is glorified in reality shows that extoll the virtue of making packs and stabbing in the back those same and using others to reach your goal bec ause in the end it is only about you.


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## knowshorts

rewire said:


> A RAT will never admit to being a RAT they will hide behind the viel of "I,m just looking out for #1" to justify their RAT behavior.The funny part is that the RAT is so focused on the knife he is sticking in the back of one of his coworkers he totally misses the knife prepared to be shoved in his own back.The RAT is the dream employee of every boss as they can be munipulated with promises of power and money that will always be held just outside their grasp.The RAT will fight his fellow workers over the crumbs that fall from the table and boast of the fact that he will eat shat eagerly if it will gain him favor.The RAT mentality is glorified in reality shows that extoll the virtue of making packs and stabbing in the back those same and using others to reach your goal bec ause in the end it is only about you.


And there are no rats in a local with over 1000 unemployed and a year wait to be called? The guys who are working are more afraid than the guys not working.


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## RIVETER

*Union*

Boy, this thread seems to be going south.I would just like to clarify the fact that I am UNION and proud of that.I also would stand up for any non-union person that is being discriminated against.
Worker's rights is a premise that ALL workers have the right to expect...Respect.


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## Bob Badger

rewire said:


> A RAT will never admit to being a RAT they will hide behind the viel of "I,m just looking out for #1" to justify their RAT behavior.The funny part is that the RAT is so focused on the knife he is sticking in the back of one of his coworkers he totally misses the knife prepared to be shoved in his own back.The RAT is the dream employee of every boss as they can be munipulated with promises of power and money that will always be held just outside their grasp.The RAT will fight his fellow workers over the crumbs that fall from the table and boast of the fact that he will eat shat eagerly if it will gain him favor.The RAT mentality is glorified in reality shows that extoll the virtue of making packs and stabbing in the back those same and using others to reach your goal bec ause in the end it is only about you.


And again I can thank you for really showing your true, childish self.:thumbsup:

Maybe someday when you grow up you and I can speak as men.


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## EDM

rewire said:


> A RAT will never admit to being a RAT they will hide behind the viel of "I,m just looking out for #1" to justify their RAT behavior.The funny part is that the RAT is so focused on the knife he is sticking in the back of one of his coworkers he totally misses the knife prepared to be shoved in his own back.The RAT is the dream employee of every boss as they can be munipulated with promises of power and money that will always be held just outside their grasp.The RAT will fight his fellow workers over the crumbs that fall from the table and boast of the fact that he will eat shat eagerly if it will gain him favor.The RAT mentality is glorified in reality shows that extoll the virtue of making packs and stabbing in the back those same and using others to reach your goal bec ause in the end it is only about you.


As an IBEW member I can honestly say that the biggest RATS I have ever seen are my fellow IBEW "Brothers".

Bother, Brother at the Hall...

On the job, fu*k them all.


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## brian john

rewire said:


> RAT shop workers beg on their knees while kissing the bossess ass for a penny raise at the same time stabbing their co workers in the back so they can take their penny that they earned.Hey boss I will supply the ladder,Hey boss I will use my own truck,Hey boss I will work a few minutes off the clock,Hey boss I don't need help carrying that 200LB gear,Hey boss you don't have to pay drive time,Hey boss I will work it HOT.


 
It is sad to believe REWIRE actually believes this, he has watched to many union videos, or has lead a really sheltered life.


Rewire you need to join the real world for god sakes grow a set.


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## jbfan

rewire said:


> RAT shop workers beg on their knees while kissing the bossess ass for a penny raise at the same time stabbing their co workers in the back so they can take their penny that they earned.Hey boss I will supply the ladder,Hey boss I will use my own truck,Hey boss I will work a few minutes off the clock,Hey boss I don't need help carrying that 200LB gear,Hey boss you don't have to pay drive time,Hey boss I will work it HOT.


 
10-23-2009, 05:31 PM #*66* rewire 
Master Electrician

 

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: missouri
Posts: 552 










just signed our letter of assent this month 

Didn't take long for the kool aide to work on you, did it?:thumbup:


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## user5941

Thomps said:


> :jester:
> 
> It's absolutely unbelievable that you could spout this much nonsense with so much conviction.


 whats unbelievable is the number of people who think like you


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## user5941

Bob Badger said:


> And again I can thank you for really showing your true, childish self.:thumbsup:
> 
> Maybe someday when you grow up you and I can speak as men.


 Typical Rat ,how are you going to speak as a man does your health insurance cover gender reasignmaent:whistling2:


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## Bob Badger

rewire said:


> Typical Rat ,how are you going to speak as a man does your health insurance cover gender reasignmaent:whistling2:



Wow, I guess I will have to go and cry now. :no:


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## 480sparky

rewire said:


> RAT shop workers beg on their knees while kissing the bossess ass for a penny raise at the same time stabbing their co workers in the back so they can take their penny that they earned.Hey boss I will supply the ladder,Hey boss I will use my own truck,Hey boss I will work a few minutes off the clock,Hey boss I don't need help carrying that 200LB gear,Hey boss you don't have to pay drive time,Hey boss I will work it HOT.


You don't get out much, do you?

Do you honestly think this is the only way it is outside the union? Or is this just the union hall rhetoric that's been drilled into your brain so often and so much that you blindly accept it as 'truth'?


FWIW, the last shop I worked at as an employee, every raise I got was not by kissing the boss's áss or sucking on his dîck. And it wasn't tied to a scheduled performance review either.

The boss would just walk up to me one day on the job site and say "Hey, you've been doing such good work we're going to raise your hourly rate by $x.00 an hour". Sometimes it was $1. Sometimes $2. Once it was $4.

If being a rat means working for money, and working harder for more money, then lead me to the cheese.


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## user5941

brian john said:


> It is sad to believe REWIRE actually believes this, he has watched to many union videos, or has lead a really sheltered life.
> 
> 
> Rewire you need to join the real world for god sakes grow a set.


 While you were warm in your bed I was standing the line. I started in this trade making $2.10/hr with the only benefit was a paycheck that cashed.I worked non union shops for the first 15 years and I have a pretty good understanding of the RAT mentality because I had it.I bought tools ,ladders and used my own truck all just to keep one foot ahead of the other guy who was trying to stand on my back.I was young and gave no thought to the future I kicked the bottom rung off the ladder cause I didn't use it.I begged for every nickel raise and thought it was something.I have been sent home many a friday because I wasn't going to be paid overtime so don't even try and get on a high horse with me Brian Ihaven't just been around the block I built the damn thing.
I was organized for 15 years and from the minute I was I realized how much I had gained. 
The really funny thing is being in business you would not dare take on a new customer without a well spelled out contract but you refuse to have a contract with employees which is what the IBEW does.


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## user5941

Bob Badger said:


> Wow, I guess I will have to go and cry now. :no:


 or you could just sulk back to Holts site were you can play at being god:laughing:


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## Bob Badger

rewire said:


> While you were warm in your bed I was standing the line. I started in this trade making $2.10/hr with the only benefit was a paycheck that cashed.I worked non union shops for the first 15 years and I have a pretty good understanding of the RAT mentality because I had it.I bought tools ,ladders and used my own truck all just to keep one foot ahead of the other guy who was trying to stand on my back.I was young and gave no thought to the future I kicked the bottom rung off the ladder cause I didn't use it.I begged for every nickel raise and thought it was something.I have been sent home many a friday because I wasn't going to be paid overtime so don't even try and get on a high horse with me Brian Ihaven't just been around the block I built the damn thing.


Sounds like you where a first class patsy. 

Did you ever think of refusing to work for those types of shops?

Maybe quiting and finding a good shop?

If anyone likes to work union thats great, more power to them. It's a big world with lots of choices. But shut the F up about things you obviously do not know about. Not all open shops treat the workers like you _let yourself_ be treated.


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## EDM

rewire said:


> I worked non union shops for the first 15 years and I have a pretty good understanding of the RAT mentality because I had it.I bought tools ,ladders and used my own truck all just to keep one foot ahead of the other guy who was trying to stand on my back.I was young and gave no thought to the future I kicked the bottom rung off the ladder cause I didn't use it.I begged for every nickel raise and thought it was something.


There's your problem right there. You did not stand up for yourself, you worked for crappy contractors that took advantage of you.

You should have voted with your feet and walked away and found a better job. 

What is so hard to understand about that?


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## Bob Badger

rewire said:


> or you could just sulk back to Holts site were you can play at being god:laughing:


Well first you would have to teach me how to sulk, you seem pretty top notch at that.:whistling2:

As far as being a God? Wow, I did not know you felt that way about me, kind of creepy. :laughing:

No your stuck with me here and there.


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## Thomps

rewire said:


> whats unbelievable is the number of people who think like you


 
And how do do I think exactly?

Thus far, I have only expressed (on this thread anyway) my amazment that you could take such a stance on issues that I am afraid that you don't fully understand. 

your assessment of a "rat worker" and rat mentality is so fabricated that it is unbelievable.


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## user5941

Bob Badger said:


> Well first you would have to teach me how to sulk, you seem pretty top notch at that.:whistling2:
> 
> As far as being a God? Wow, I did not know you felt that way about me, kind of creepy. :laughing:
> 
> No your stuck with me here and there.


 not big G small g


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## user5941

EDM said:


> There's your problem right there. You did not stand up for yourself, you worked for crappy contractors that took advantage of you.
> 
> You should have voted with your feet and walked away and found a better job.
> 
> What is so hard to understand about that?


 Quit and go were? I quit and I have no job but still have bills and you quit you draw no unemployment. Shooting myself in the foot did not make sense I remember once everyone was going to go to the boss and ask together for a decent raise but he got wind of it and dangled change to a couple of guys and our united front fell apart.
Really would anyone quit their job today with unemployment going around 15% over not getting a raise?Its times like these that puts an employer in the drivers seat if the boss told you to buy a new ladder to keep your jod I bet most would be on their way to Lowes.


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## user5941

Thomps said:


> And how do do I think exactly?


with limited brain cells :whistling2:


> Thus far, I have only expressed (on this thread anyway) my amazment that you could take such a stance on issues that I am afraid that you don't fully understand.


 then please bestow on us your vast understanding of the issue :thumbup:


> your assessment of a "rat worker" and rat mentality is so fabricated that it is unbelievable.


 and you know this because.....


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## Bob Badger

rewire said:


> Quit and go were? I quit and I have no job but still have bills and you quit you draw no unemployment. Shooting myself in the foot did not make sense I remember once everyone was going to go to the boss and ask together for a decent raise but he got wind of it and dangled change to a couple of guys and our united front fell apart.
> Really would anyone quit their job today with unemployment going around 15% over not getting a raise?Its times like these that puts an employer in the drivers seat if the boss told you to buy a new ladder to keep your jod I bet most would be on their way to Lowes.


So your answer is to demand high wages in times of 15% unemployment. Good plan, can you explain where that money might come from?

Kind of short sighted but that is your choice.

Lawnguysparky is always quick to say thinks like

_'I would rather work for $80 per hr for 1/2 year than $40 for a full year.'_

It's really a great sound bite, it would play well on the news. But the reality is most will be lucky if they work at all this year for $80 per hr.


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## brian john

rewire said:


> While you were warm in your bed I was standing the line. I started in this trade making $2.10/hr with the only benefit was a paycheck that cashed.I worked non union shops for the first 15 years and I have a pretty good understanding of the RAT mentality because I had it.I bought tools ,ladders and used my own truck all just to keep one foot ahead of the other guy who was trying to stand on my back.I was young and gave no thought to the future I kicked the bottom rung off the ladder cause I didn't use it.I begged for every nickel raise and thought it was something.I have been sent home many a friday because I wasn't going to be paid overtime so don't even try and get on a high horse with me Brian Ihaven't just been around the block I built the damn thing.
> I was organized for 15 years and from the minute I was I realized how much I had gained.
> The really funny thing is being in business you would not dare take on a new customer without a well spelled out contract but you refuse to have a contract with employees which is what the IBEW does.


80% of my work is completed without a contract. So blows that idea.


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## brian john

Bob Badger said:


> Well first you would have to teach me how to sulk, you seem pretty top notch at that.:whistling2:
> 
> As far as being a God? Wow, I did not know you felt that way about me, kind of creepy. :laughing:
> 
> No your stuck with me here and there.


If I die and go to Heaven and Bob Badger is God, I will take the elevator to hell.


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## user5941

Bob Badger said:


> So your answer is to demand high wages in times of 15% unemployment. Good plan, can you explain where that money might come from?
> 
> Kind of short sighted but that is your choice.
> 
> Lawnguysparky is always quick to say thinks like
> 
> _'I would rather work for $80 per hr for 1/2 year than $40 for a full year.'_
> 
> It's really a great sound bite, it would play well on the news. But the reality is most will be lucky if they work at all this year for $80 per hr.


 were did I say demand higher wages ??? If you ar going to quote me at least get acurate or use the quote feature


----------



## Thomps

rewire said:


> with limited brain cells :whistling2:
> then please bestow on us your vast understanding of the issue :thumbup: and you know this because.....


 

 oh tisk tisk. Limited brain cells eh?! I don't think you're interested at all in debate or conversation. but only in stirring the pot and creating a wee pissing contest. if I've got the wrong impression of your intetions, then please feel free to correct me.

if you're truely interested in my position in labour issues then feel free to ask, I'm always willing to discuss training, safety, career opportunities, labour relations, etc.

You're position regarding rat mentaility is about as realistic as someone taking the position that only the lazy and uneducated turn to the union. it's misleading and insulting.


----------



## user5941

brian john said:


> 80% of my work is completed without a contract. So blows that idea.


a side job working hack never uses a contract but professional contractors do sorry I didn't factor in stupid:whistling2:


----------



## Bob Badger

rewire said:


> were did I say demand higher wages ??? If you ar going to quote me at least get acurate or use the quote feature


You told us one of the pros for being on the union was the high wage.

Unless your voting to take cuts?


----------



## Bob Badger

brian john said:


> If I die and go to Heaven and Bob Badger is God, *I will take the elevator to hell.*


I think it would be obvious that you where already there. :laughing:


----------



## user5941

Thomps said:


> oh tisk tisk. Limited brain cells eh?! I don't think you're interested at all in debate or conversation. but only in stirring the pot and creating a wee pissing contest. if I've got the wrong impression of your intetions, then please feel free to correct me.
> 
> if you're truely interested in my position in labour issues then feel free to ask, I'm always willing to discuss training, safety, career opportunities, labour relations, etc.
> 
> You're position regarding rat mentaility is about as realistic as someone taking the position that only the lazy and uneducated turn to the union. it's misleading and insulting.


 You shall be hearing from the spelling police This is the part of this forum I have a little fun in don't take it personal i just like to get everyone posting I mean how many KVAR threads can you stand.:thumbup:


----------



## brian john

rewire said:


> a side job working hack never uses a contract but professional contractors do sorry I didn't factor in stupid:whistling2:


 
How long have you been in business?

What type of work do you do?

What market do you operate in?


----------



## 480sparky

rewire said:


> a side job working hack never uses a contract but professional contractors do sorry I didn't factor in stupid:whistling2:


 
480sparky : Tool
Peter D : Hack
Bob Badger : God

and now introducing...

brian john :_ Stupid_ Hack!


That's it for this afternoon's matinee performance, folks! Be sure to have a safe trip home, and don't forget to tip the wait staff! :laughing:


----------



## Thomps

rewire said:


> You shall be hearing from the spelling police This is the part of this forum I have a little fun in don't take it personal i just like to get everyone posting I mean how many KVAR threads can you stand.:thumbup:


 
As long as the grammar cops stay away.


----------



## Bob Badger

480sparky said:


> brian john :_ Stupid_ Hack!


:laughing:

Wow, thats some words I thought I would never see together. 


Yeah, when I think of Brian the first thing I think of is stupid. 






(BTW Brian, in hell you must eat red meat:thumbsup


----------



## 480sparky

Bob Badger said:


> Wow, thats some words I thought I would never see together.  .........)


_Stupid_ and _hack_? You mean there's such a thing as smart hacks?


----------



## BCSparkyGirl

wow, are we all in the 7th grade again? Who's gonna use the term doodie head? I am on the edge of my seat.......(cue eye rolling)


----------



## 480sparky

BCSparkyGirl said:


> .........cue eye rolling)


----------



## Bob Badger

BCSparkyGirl said:


> wow, are we all in the 7th grade again? Who's gonna use the term doodie head? I am on the edge of my seat.......(cue eye rolling)


You stay away, you have cooties. 
:laughing:


----------



## user5941




----------



## BryanMD

> 480sparky : Tool
> Peter D : Hack
> Bob Badger : God
> brian john :_ Stupid_ Hack!


Yes well I am polymerised tree saps and you are an inorganic adhesive so whatever verbal projectile you launch in my direction is reflected off me, returns on its original trajectory and adheres to you. -Sheldon


----------



## BCSparkyGirl

Bob Badger said:


> You stay away, you have cooties.
> :laughing:


that won't be hard, you are stinky!!!!:laughing:


----------



## BCSparkyGirl

BryanMD said:


> Yes well I am polymerised tree saps and you are an inorganic adhesive so whatever verbal projectile you launch in my direction is reflected off me, returns on its original trajectory and adheres to you. -Sheldon


nicely put:thumbsup:


----------



## Bob Badger

BCSparkyGirl said:


> that won't be hard, you are stinky!!!!:laughing:


You have been talking to Peter. :laughing:


----------



## 480sparky

rewire said:


>


 
Now that's original!









Not.


----------



## oldman

I love that rewire has been a union contractor for about 3 mins - after failing as one 1st time around- yet he's talking like he's jimmy hoffa. 

For anyone who has time and patience (go for it bob), i5 wager that if you went beck through rewires posts, you could probably have him argue himself on just about any topic.


----------



## user5941

oldman said:


> I love that rewire has been a union contractor for about 3 mins - after failing as one 1st time around- yet he's talking like he's jimmy hoffa.
> 
> For anyone who has time and patience (go for it bob), i5 wager that if you went beck through rewires posts, you could probably have him argue himself on just about any topic.


 hey just stick around and I will probably start aruing the other side as it seems to need the help,if it were not for my posts this thread would have died long ago and this board would get as dull as another board that shall remain nameless:whistling2: I was a union member for years before I started my business and I didn't fail I just had to withdraw in order to get the business up and running the local really doesn't have a good setup for residential contractors and I am in a very non union area not allBAs are asses and ours was willing to let me make a go of things I told him I wanted to return as soon as I had my feet under me. So I have experience working non union,working union ,being a non union contractor and being a union contractor so I think I can speak from many viewpoints:thumbsup:


----------



## Bob Badger

rewire said:


> if it were not for my posts this thread would have died long ago


Don't expect a pat on the back, your keeping this thread active in the same way a screaming child keeps the babysitter busy. :laughing:



> and this board would get as dull as another board that shall remain nameless:whistling2:


Get some stones, say whats on your mind. 



> I was a union member for years before I started my business and* I didn't fail I just had to withdraw* in order to get the business up and running


You sure you're not a politician with that great double speak. :laughing:


----------



## user4818

480sparky said:


> 480sparky : Tool
> Peter D : Hack
> Bob Badger : God
> 
> and now introducing...
> 
> brian john :_ Stupid_ Hack!
> 
> 
> That's it for this afternoon's matinee performance, folks! Be sure to have a safe trip home, and don't forget to tip the wait staff! :laughing:


*takes a bow*



Bob Badger said:


> You have been talking to Peter. :laughing:


:whistling2:


----------



## LJSMITH1

rewire said:


> hey just stick around and I will probably start aruing the other side as it seems to need the help,if it were not for my posts this thread would have died long ago and this board would get as dull as another board that shall remain nameless:whistling2: I was a union member for years before I started my business and I didn't fail I just had to withdraw in order to get the business up and running the local really doesn't have a good setup for residential contractors and I am in a very non union area not allBAs are asses and ours was willing to let me make a go of things I told him I wanted to return as soon as I had my feet under me. So I have experience working non union,working union ,being a non union contractor and being a union contractor so I think I can speak from many viewpoints:thumbsup:


So, let me get this straight... You left your beloved 'brotherhood' to get your non-union business up and running. Now that you have had success in doing so (congrats), and non-union success I might add, you are returning to the brotherhood to bash anyone that you define as a RAT or a Non-union hack? LOL! :laughing: Talk about the pot calling the kettle black...

If it weren't in black and white, I wouldn't believe this story....too funny.


----------



## 480sparky

Peter D said:


> *takes a bow*


----------



## user5941

LJSMITH1 said:


> So, let me get this straight... You left your beloved 'brotherhood' to get your non-union business up and running. Now that you have had success in doing so (congrats), and non-union success I might add, you are returning to the brotherhood to bash anyone that you define as a RAT or a Non-union hack? LOL! :laughing: Talk about the pot calling the kettle black...
> 
> If it weren't in black and white, I wouldn't believe this story....too funny.


 I never have used the term "non union hack" get it straight please.It was not an easy decision to drop my ticket but our local did not have a residential book and I could not pay commercial scale for residential work. The area I was in had very low wages and many one man showes who worked for beer money. My goal was to raise the bar but I knew it would take time and paying above the local wage was putting me at a great disadvantage and with no target funds for residential it was the only option . I have always ran my company as a union shop I supply tools and trucks pay two hour show up on rainouts paid holidays paid vacations overtime over 8 saturday was always overtime 3% raise every year safety gear provided pay was at residential scale. The only things I did not have were retirement and healthcare now we do.

The only union I have direct knowledge of is the IBEW although not perfect they are not demons. I can't stomach those who bash unions with absolutly no understanding of what they do or why they are still needed. i do not carry any of this outside of the union topics forum but when you come in here and slam the IBEW I will respond and if you act like a rat , talk like a rat then I wont be shy about calling you a RAT but I will not do it outside of the UNION topics part of this board.

I never showed disrespect towards the IBEW sinse I was a member and even the short time I was not


----------



## 480sparky

rewire said:


> ..........talk like a rat then I wont be shy about calling you a RAT ............


And it seems the only time we 'talk like a rat' is when you think we are.



rewire said:


> Typical Rat ,how are you going to speak as a man does your health insurance cover gender reasignmaent:whistling2:





rewire said:


> whats unbelievable is the number of people who think like you





rewire said:


> A RAT will never admit to being a RAT they will hide behind the viel of "I,m just looking out for #1" to justify their RAT behavior.The funny part is that the RAT is so focused on the knife he is sticking in the back of one of his coworkers he totally misses the knife prepared to be shoved in his own back.The RAT is the dream employee of every boss as they can be munipulated with promises of power and money that will always be held just outside their grasp.The RAT will fight his fellow workers over the crumbs that fall from the table and boast of the fact that he will eat shat eagerly if it will gain him favor.The RAT mentality is glorified in reality shows that extoll the virtue of making packs and stabbing in the back those same and using others to reach your goal bec ause in the end it is only about you.


 


rewire said:


> RAT shop workers beg on their knees while kissing the bossess ass for a penny raise at the same time stabbing their co workers in the back so they can take their penny that they earned.Hey boss I will supply the ladder,Hey boss I will use my own truck,Hey boss I will work a few minutes off the clock,Hey boss I don't need help carrying that 200LB gear,Hey boss you don't have to pay drive time,Hey boss I will work it HOT.


 


rewire said:


> with limited brain cells :whistling2:
> then please bestow on us your vast understanding of the issue :thumbup: and you know this because.....





rewire said:


> actually I knew that a people pleasing RAT would offer up answer in hopes of impressing someone who would tell them what a good little RAT they were for going after the big mean union guy,Its called working smarter:whistling2:


----------



## LJSMITH1

rewire said:


> I never have used the term "non union hack" get it straight please.It was not an easy decision to drop my ticket but our local did not have a residential book and I could not pay commercial scale for residential work. The area I was in had very low wages and many one man showes who worked for beer money. My goal was to raise the bar but I knew it would take time and paying above the local wage was putting me at a great disadvantage and with no target funds for residential it was the only option . I have always ran my company as a union shop I supply tools and trucks pay two hour show up on rainouts paid holidays paid vacations overtime over 8 saturday was always overtime 3% raise every year safety gear provided pay was at residential scale. The only things I did not have were retirement and healthcare now we do.
> 
> The only union I have direct knowledge of is the IBEW although not perfect they are not demons. I can't stomach those who bash unions with absolutly no understanding of what they do or why they are still needed. i do not carry any of this outside of the union topics forum but when you come in here and slam the IBEW I will respond and if you act like a rat , talk like a rat then I wont be shy about calling you a RAT but I will not do it outside of the UNION topics part of this board.
> 
> I never showed disrespect towards the IBEW sinse I was a member and even the short time I was not


 
Still... You dropped the Union when it suited you..and it wasn't like you were gone for a year or two....seems hypocritical to me.....What about your "brothers"? How does that work with them? You are talking out of both sides of your head at the same time. :no:

As far as calling me a RAT...LOL...I have nothing to do with your job or Union, so why the name calling?:001_huh: Also, how do you know I have no understanding of what Unions do or why they are still needed? Just because my knowledge and personal experience don't fit within your ability to understand the bigger picture, does not mean you get to attack me or others who share in the same view as mine. Name calling is a sure-fire way to discredit any argument you can muster.

You are entitled to be part of your Union, have your opinion, and live your life the way you see fit. The moment you attempt to force your "cause" to be "my cause" is when I will have a problem with you.


----------



## EDM

LJSMITH1 said:


> Still... You dropped the Union when it suited you..and it wasn't like you were gone for a year or two....seems hypocritical to me.....


Not that I want to agree with rewire, but what do you expect? Seriously?

How can you bid a house with commercial journeyman inside wiremen rates? It's not logical, it's not expected if the local doesn't have a residential program.


----------



## LJSMITH1

480sparky said:


> And it seems the only time we 'talk like a rat' is when you think we are.


 
480Sparky, Love the Avatar! Scabby The Rat!:thumbup:

I wonder if any psycho in NYC has ever walked too close to one of those things with a razor blade covertly strapped to a shoe, coat, or other appendage that would "accidently" bump against the silly, blow up balloon animal...LOL

I should be in this business franchise...


----------



## BuzzKill

rewire said:


> a side job working hack never uses a contract but professional contractors do sorry I didn't factor in stupid:whistling2:


That's laughable!:laughing:


----------



## LJSMITH1

EDM said:


> Not that I want to agree with rewire, but what do you expect? Seriously?
> 
> How can you bid a house with commercial journeyman inside wiremen rates? It's not logical, it's not expected if the local doesn't have a residential program.


I didn't say I didn't agree that it was probably a good move personally, but it flies in the face of the "Solidarity" and "Brotherhood" speeches Mr. Rewire was lecturing us with earlier. If the Local doesn't have a residential program, why should he have to drop his card? Is there a work rule or dues issue that I don't understand? While he may not be accused of taking away a job from a Union Brother (because there is no established Union residential program in his area), the Union still needs his dues to fund the pension and heath benefit plans that many of his "brothers" rely on. 

Is union membership easy to turn off and on at will? I was under the impression that it was very difficult.

:blink:


----------



## EDM

LJSMITH1 said:


> I didn't say I didn't agree that it was probably a good move personally, but it flies in the face of the "Solidarity" and "Brotherhood" speeches Mr. Rewire was lecturing us with earlier. If the Local doesn't have a residential program, why should he have to drop his card? Is there a work rule or dues issue that I don't understand? While he may not be accused of taking away a job from a Union Brother (because there is no established Union residential program in his area), the Union still needs his dues to fund the pension and heath benefit plans that many of his "brothers" rely on.
> 
> Is union membership easy to turn off and on at will? I was under the impression that it was very difficult.
> 
> :blink:


If you are not working and not on the referral list, you can "shelf" your book. It's not difficult at all.


----------



## brian john

REWIRE you questioned my credibility and ability as a contractor. I asked you some legitimate questions you have not answered.

I did not attack you I asked for a legitimate answer. Can you answer a few questions or are you only able to say rat, rat, rat!


----------



## user4818

Non-union shops should start inflating large snakes at the jobsites to swallow all those stupid rats the union guys inflate. :laughing:


----------



## EDM

Peter D said:


> Non-union shops should start inflating large snakes at the jobsites to swallow all those stupid rats the union guys inflate. :laughing:


Non-union shops are too busy doing electrical work to play with blow-up dolls. :thumbsup:


----------



## user4818

EDM said:


> Non-union shops are too busy doing electrical work to play with blow-up dolls. :thumbsup:


Excellent point. :notworthy:


----------



## brian john

EDM said:


> Not that I want to agree with rewire, but what do you expect? Seriously?
> 
> How can you bid a house with commercial journeyman inside wiremen rates? It's not logical, it's not expected if the local doesn't have a residential program.


Such is the price you should pay for taking the SUPPOSEDLY moral hugh ground you either stand by your standards or you sell out. 

Rewire for someone that I had a lot of respect for at one period your stock has seriously slipped.


----------



## william1978

EDM said:


> Non-union shops are too busy doing electrical work to play with blow-up dolls. :thumbsup:


 Some of the guys working at my non-union shop are to busy playing with a blow-up doll to do any work.


----------



## MF Dagger

Peter D said:


> Non-union shops should start inflating large snakes at the jobsites to swallow all those stupid rats the union guys inflate. :laughing:


I saw a cat on some site one time.


----------



## MF Dagger




----------



## RIVETER

*kWorker's Rights*



rewire said:


> I never have used the term "non union hack" get it straight please.It was not an easy decision to drop my ticket but our local did not have a residential book and I could not pay commercial scale for residential work. The area I was in had very low wages and many one man showes who worked for beer money. My goal was to raise the bar but I knew it would take time and paying above the local wage was putting me at a great disadvantage and with no target funds for residential it was the only option . I have always ran my company as a union shop I supply tools and trucks pay two hour show up on rainouts paid holidays paid vacations overtime over 8 saturday was always overtime 3% raise every year safety gear provided pay was at residential scale. The only things I did not have were retirement and healthcare now we do.
> 
> The only union I have direct knowledge of is the IBEW although not perfect they are not demons. I can't stomach those who bash unions with absolutly no understanding of what they do or why they are still needed. i do not carry any of this outside of the union topics forum but when you come in here and slam the IBEW I will respond and if you act like a rat , talk like a rat then I wont be shy about calling you a RAT but I will not do it outside of the UNION topics part of this board.
> 
> I never showed disrespect towards the IBEW sinse I was a member and even the short time I was not


Rewire, I am with you and a lot of people on this forum are, as well. I personally, do not bash non-union workers because I see that they are trying to support their families. I have my preferences, and UNION serves me. The others deserve respect too. They are good workers and the UNION has good workers, as well.


----------



## brian john

RIVETER said:


> Rewire, I am with you and a lot of people on this forum are, as well. I personally, do not bash non-union workers because I see that they are trying to support their families. I have my preferences, and UNION serves me. The others deserve respect too. They are good workers and the UNION has good workers, as well.


And the union would get more members if they were OPEN and quit trashing open shop men.

Other than RIVERTER I seldom see the die hard union men posting anything in the electrical portion of this ELECTRICAL FORUM, and RIVERTER took a beating on a few issues. Lots to say here nothing to add in the skills section.MMMMMMMM?????????????


----------



## EDM

brian john said:


> Other than RIVERTER I seldom see the die hard union men posting anything in the electrical portion of this ELECTRICAL FORUM,


That's a good observation, but it's more than just union vs. non-union.

Most union men are workers, they follow a plan and work under project managers, architects, engineers, etc. In that situation, when less decision making is put on that particular person, it does become somewhat of an Installer type of job. Personally, I am stuck in that situation until I find a way out.

On the other hand, many of the non-union men here are contractors doing smaller work where they make the decisions themselves, for the most part. That puts them into the position to ask more questions and learn new tricks, to get involved in more of the technical discussions.


----------



## RIVETER

*Unionize*

Brian, you seemed a lot nicer before your last post. I am a PURIST as far as worker's rights. Respect means a lot of things. It means appreciation for a job well done. It means understanding if a person has to take off a day because a relative has died. It means that if , because of my labor, I would like and expect a portion of that good money you have earned because I did well...so be it. I would very much like for you to make a lot more than you pay me because you took the chance on me. 
And...I am still your friend

RIVETER


----------



## brian john

RIVETER said:


> Brian, you seemed a lot nicer before your last post. I am a PURIST as far as worker's rights. Respect means a lot of things. It means appreciation for a job well done. It means understanding if a person has to take off a day because a relative has died. It means that if , because of my labor, I would like and expect a portion of that good money you have earned because I did well...so be it. I would very much like for you to make a lot more than you pay me because you took the chance on me.
> And...I am still your friend
> 
> RIVETER


Riverter my last post was a fact! Do you see any of the die in the wool union guys (other than you) posting anything in the electrical portion of this forum?

I cannot think of one thing Rewire has added that concerns electricity or the NEC. As for what I said about you do you deny you got beat up over a few post you made?

If I am wrong show me where I am. Making a correct statement and making cruel statements are two different things.


----------



## oldman

RIVETER said:


> It means that if , because of my labor, I would like and expect a portion of that good money you have earned because I did well...so be it.


do you hold the reverse to be true? if they lose money because of a royal screwup on your part, should you be responsible for some of the loss?

Ford had a $1bil profit for the last quarter, 14 and a half more quarters like that will make up for the loss's of last year...

it has to be a give and take, not a one way street....this isn't aimed at you personally, just a general reference...

we just let a guy go because he felt i was responsible for supporting his family...wanted the paycheck, wanted the hours....but didn't feel necessary to produce anything in the hours he was on the clock...was happy to run jobs long because it meant another paycheck for him...

so, unfortunately, he is now looking for another job...and his family is not being taken care of...when had he just done his job, everyone would have won...


----------



## user5941

brian john said:


> Riverter my last post was a fact! Do you see any of the die in the wool union guys (other than you) posting anything in the electrical portion of this forum?
> 
> I cannot think of one thing Rewire has added that concerns electricity or the NEC. As for what I said about you do you deny you got beat up over a few post you made?
> 
> If I am wrong show me where I am. Making a correct statement and making cruel statements are two different things.


 I post alot in other sections of this forum and you will see I do not post my union opinions in any other area i have several posts that concern electricity and NEC.


----------



## user5941

brian john said:


> Such is the price you should pay for taking the SUPPOSEDLY moral hugh ground you either stand by your standards or you sell out.
> 
> Rewire for someone that I had a lot of respect for at one period your stock has seriously slipped.


 Your first post in this thread was to bash unions and union members,you are in union topics and you think no union member is going to say anything?Your stock has bottom for me. It is one thing to say you choose to work non union because you fell that it is best for you and I respect that it is a totally different thing to say you work non union because union guys are thugs or have a mob mentality that will evoke a response.
You have no high ground to take as you fired the first volley.


----------



## 480sparky

rewire said:


> ........... it is a totally different thing to say you work non union because union guys are thugs or have a mob mentality that will evoke a response...........


Yet it seems perfectly acceptable to you to say shît like this:



rewire said:


> RAT shop workers beg on their knees while kissing the bossess ass for a penny raise at the same time stabbing their co workers in the back so they can take their penny that they earned.Hey boss I will supply the ladder,Hey boss I will use my own truck,Hey boss I will work a few minutes off the clock,Hey boss I don't need help carrying that 200LB gear,Hey boss you don't have to pay drive time,Hey boss I will work it HOT.





rewire said:


> A RAT will never admit to being a RAT they will hide behind the viel of "I,m just looking out for #1" to justify their RAT behavior.The funny part is that the RAT is so focused on the knife he is sticking in the back of one of his coworkers he totally misses the knife prepared to be shoved in his own back.The RAT is the dream employee of every boss as they can be munipulated with promises of power and money that will always be held just outside their grasp.The RAT will fight his fellow workers over the crumbs that fall from the table and boast of the fact that he will eat shat eagerly if it will gain him favor.The RAT mentality is glorified in reality shows that extoll the virtue of making packs and stabbing in the back those same and using others to reach your goal bec ause in the end it is only about you.





rewire said:


> Typical Rat ,how are you going to speak as a man does your health insurance cover gender reasignmaent:whistling2:


You said it best:



rewire said:


> whats unbelievable is the number of people who think like you


Now go look in the mirror.


----------



## EDM

rewire said:


> it is a totally different thing to say you work non union because union guys are thugs or have a mob mentality that will evoke a response.


The problem that you seem to continually ignore is that the only response you should "evoke" is one of apology.

Instead, you choose to lie and ignore the truth. 

Just a few months ago when I was forced to go picket I was at the entrance of a job site watching the guys walk in front of the trucks trying to get in. These union guys were walking as slow as possible to slow down the men from going to work to make a living and put food on their table, this caused traffic in the street that backed up other people trying to go to work, school buses, emergency vehicles, etc. And then when a truck with some type of electrical name on the side tried to get in it got even worse, they would sit there for over 5 minutes as the same thugs walked as slow as possible in front of the truck and then immediately turned around to walk back. All the while being screamed at, "SCAB!" "RAT!" "F*CK YOU, YOU PIECE OF SH*T!". Guys walking on the sides of the car staring in with looks of death, others actually making death threats. And then when this guy stuck in a crowd of 100 angry men hits his gas a little or toots his horn to try and finally get thru and stop the traffic that the back of his truck is causing on the street, EVERYONE starts screaming and banging on his hood.

I've never seen a mob mentality like this before, it was pure thuggery. The reason I never saw it before was because I was never at a picket, from talking to the other guys after, it seems like ALL of them are this way. 

That was definitely a turning point for me, no longer could I defend the actions of the unions. And when I see someone like you still trying, it makes me sick.


----------



## brian john

rewire said:


> Your first post in this thread was to bash unions and union members,you are in union topics and you think no union member is going to say anything?Your stock has bottom for me. It is one thing to say you choose to work non union because you fell that it is best for you and I respect that it is a totally different thing to say you work non union because union guys are thugs or have a mob mentality that will evoke a response.
> You have no high ground to take as you fired the first volley.


\I have said unions are good for the workers BUT

Union "brotherhood" I have not seen it, I know it exist and many brothers do good things for injured or sick friends) but so do open shop men.

As noted above the union tactics IMO hurt the union.

Unions not allowing members in hurts the union image (I know it helps drive up wages).

But what drives me in this area is narrow minded men that post trash, based on a few videos and propaganda they are fed.

Oh you recently signed with the local? Yet how long have you been in business?

As for you posting in the electrical areas, if you do/did it was of so little value it did not stick in my limited memory bank. Sorry I missed your valuable insight, I'll have to look again.


----------



## EDM

brian john said:


> Unions not allowing members in hurts the union image (I know it helps drive up wages).


How many people should the union let in? Is 600 men out of work not enough? Should we let more people in so there are 2,000 men on the bench? 

If the local is able to supply the men that the contractors need, why should they continue to let more and more people in? Who would benefit from that?

How does it drive up the wage to have less members?


----------



## BDB

EDM said:


> If the local is able to supply the men that the contractors need, why should they continue to let more and more people in?


I wish the local COULD supply men when needed.


----------



## user5941

480sparky said:


> Yet it seems perfectly acceptable to you to say shît like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You said it best:
> 
> 
> 
> Now go look in the mirror.


 I have been very precise in my statements concerning RAT behavior if you don't do these things I describe then rock on ,but if you do and I usually find he who complains the loudest is usually the most guilty then eat the cheese.


----------



## EDM

BDB said:


> I wish the local COULD supply men when needed.


I didn't realize the IBEW had much of a grasp in Texas.

Are you saying that your local isn't taking in more men? Or is it more of a function of the area not being very conducive to union labor? Possibly the lack of interest in joining the union by the area's population? 

There are many, many locals around the country who are hurting very badly. I find it unrealistic that locals would not supply the men needed unless there were other issues at hand.


----------



## 480sparky

rewire said:


> I have been very precise in my statements concerning RAT behavior if you don't do these things I describe then rock on ,but if you do and I usually find he who complains the loudest is usually the most guilty then eat the cheese.


Yet according to you, every non-union electrician is a rat. So according to you, it is impossible for me to avoid the things you describe.

Due to the fact I am non-union, I am a rat, and I kiss the boss's äss, am willing to supply all the tools, material and free labor needed to complete the hatchet job I'm sent to, I beg for a penny an hour raise while stabbing coworkers in the back and am totally incapable of detecting the knife in my own back.

Have I gotten all this correct? Did I miss anything? I want to make sure I have all my facts straight so I can get my resumé updated.


----------



## user5941

EDM said:


> The problem that you seem to continually ignore is that the only response you should "evoke" is one of apology.
> 
> Instead, you choose to lie and ignore the truth.
> 
> Just a few months ago when I was forced to go picket I was at the entrance of a job site watching the guys walk in front of the trucks trying to get in. These union guys were walking as slow as possible to slow down the men from going to work to make a living and put food on their table, this caused traffic in the street that backed up other people trying to go to work, school buses, emergency vehicles, etc. And then when a truck with some type of electrical name on the side tried to get in it got even worse, they would sit there for over 5 minutes as the same thugs walked as slow as possible in front of the truck and then immediately turned around to walk back. All the while being screamed at, "SCAB!" "RAT!" "F*CK YOU, YOU PIECE OF SH*T!". Guys walking on the sides of the car staring in with looks of death, others actually making death threats. And then when this guy stuck in a crowd of 100 angry men hits his gas a little or toots his horn to try and finally get thru and stop the traffic that the back of his truck is causing on the street, EVERYONE starts screaming and banging on his hood.
> 
> I've never seen a mob mentality like this before, it was pure thuggery. The reason I never saw it before was because I was never at a picket, from talking to the other guys after, it seems like ALL of them are this way.
> 
> That was definitely a turning point for me, no longer could I defend the actions of the unions. And when I see someone like you still trying, it makes me sick.


 If you don't like the union then leave but don't try and have it both ways.Your post is pure fiction as no body would do this because it would be on the Fox news channel and the union would get slapped with multiple unfair labor practice charges.So to put it bluntly you are a anti union union member so you lack credibility. this may have flown in the 70s but today unions teach their members how not to get charges filed on them.


----------



## user5941

brian john said:


> \I have said unions are good for the workers BUT
> 
> Union "brotherhood" I have not seen it, I know it exist and many brothers do good things for injured or sick friends) but so do open shop men.
> 
> As noted above the union tactics IMO hurt the union.
> 
> Unions not allowing members in hurts the union image (I know it helps drive up wages).
> 
> But what drives me in this area is narrow minded men that post trash, based on a few videos and propaganda they are fed.
> 
> Oh you recently signed with the local? Yet how long have you been in business?
> 
> As for you posting in the electrical areas, if you do/did it was of so little value it did not stick in my limited memory bank. Sorry I missed your valuable insight, I'll have to look again.


 now I consider you a full fledged semiproc


----------



## EDM

rewire said:


> If you don't like the union then leave but don't try and have it both ways.Your post is pure fiction as no body would do this because it would be on the Fox news channel and the union would get slapped with multiple unfair labor practice charges.So to put it bluntly you are a anti union union member so you lack credibility. this may have flown in the 70s but today unions teach their members how not to get charges filed on them.


 Are you honestly trying to say that there aren't hundreds of videos of EXACTLY what I described in my post, ready for you to watch on Youtube right now?

You are either a huge liar or just plain old stupid. I can't decide which one.

ETA: I forgot to mention, we were told that as long as you keep moving the police can't stop you. Meaning, you can't stand in front of the cars, you had to walk back and forth, as slow as possible, in front of them. The police passed by many times, but they did not stop, they are union too.


----------



## 480sparky

rewire said:


> now I consider you a full fledged semiproc


What's a semiproc?



EDM said:


> .............You are either a huge liar or just plain old stupid. I can't decide which one.


 
I'm leaning towards two days of PWI.


----------



## user5941

480sparky said:


> Yet according to you, every non-union electrician is a rat. So according to you, it is impossible for me to avoid the things you describe.


 show me the post that I say '''''every''''''non unionelectrician


> Due to the fact I am non-union, I am a rat, and I kiss the boss's äss, am willing to supply all the tools, material and free labor needed to complete the hatchet job I'm sent to, I beg for a penny an hour raise while stabbing coworkers in the back and am totally incapable of detecting the knife in my own back.
> 
> Have I gotten all this correct? Did I miss anything? I want to make sure I have all my facts straight so I can get my resumé updated.


being non union does not make you a RAT acting like a RAT makes you a RAT so if you kiss the bosses ass then you are an ass kisser.


----------



## user5941

EDM said:


> Are you honestly trying to say that there aren't hundreds of videos of EXACTLY what I described in my post, ready for you to watch on Youtube right now?
> 
> You are either a huge liar or just plain old stupid. I can't decide which one.


 post the links and I will watch I know you cannot be "forced" to picket.And make sure they are IBEW members in the videos.


----------



## 480sparky

rewire said:


> show me the post that I say '''''every''''''non unionelectrician
> being non union does not make you a RAT acting like a RAT makes you a RAT so if you kiss the bosses ass then you are an ass kisser.


And I've stated time and time again I never kissed the boss's ass, yet you still insist I am a rat sole based on your preconcieved image of me.

Fact is, you've called me a rat several times in this thread, along with everyone else who doesn't subscribe to your views.



rewire said:


> post the links and I will watch I know you cannot be "forced" to picket.And make sure they are IBEW members in the videos.


Why limit it to just IBEW members? Are not all unions included? Or are you just attempting to be so selective in your demands they simply cannot be met under any circumstances?


----------



## user5941

480sparky said:


> And I've stated time and time again I never kissed the boss's ass, yet you still insist I am a rat sole based on your preconcieved image of me.
> 
> Fact is, you've called me a rat several times in this thread, along with everyone else who doesn't subscribe to your views.


 were are you getting that I called you a RAT in this post I never responded to you in any manner like that to be honest you were not that interesting



> Why limit it to just IBEW members? Are not all unions included? Or are you just attempting to be so selective in your demands they simply cannot be met under any circumstances?


 My knowledge is limited to the IBEW so commenting on the SEIU picketing policy would not be based on personel knowledge


----------



## EDM

rewire said:


> post the links and I will watch


Search for yourself there are hundreds. I am not here to do your work for you.



> I know you cannot be "forced" to picket.


 Again, you are DEAD wrong. It is in our bylaws, so yes, we are required to picket when called even if we are against it. 

All you have done is proven that you don't know much about either non-union OR union labor.


----------



## 480sparky

rewire said:


> were are you getting that I called you a RAT in this post I never responded to you in any manner like that to be honest you were not that interesting ........


You lie like a rug.



rewire said:


> actually I knew that a people pleasing RAT would offer up answer in hopes of impressing someone who would tell them what a good little RAT they were for going after the big mean union guy,Its called working smarter:whistling2:


Would you like me to post your comments about the others you have called a rat?


----------



## bward76

EDM said:


> Search for yourself there are hundreds. I am not here to do your work for you.
> 
> Again, you are DEAD wrong. It is in our bylaws, so yes, we are required to picket when called even if we are against it.
> 
> All you have done is proven that you don't know much about either non-union OR union labor.


This would be an area specific item. It is clearly in my bylaws that we have a no strike policy. Our local has not picketed since the early 80's.


----------



## RIVETER

*Unionize*



oldman said:


> do you hold the reverse to be true? if they lose money because of a royal screwup on your part, should you be responsible for some of the loss?
> 
> Ford had a $1bil profit for the last quarter, 14 and a half more quarters like that will make up for the loss's of last year...
> 
> it has to be a give and take, not a one way street....this isn't aimed at you personally, just a general reference...
> 
> we just let a guy go because he felt i was responsible for supporting his family...wanted the paycheck, wanted the hours....but didn't feel necessary to produce anything in the hours he was on the clock...was happy to run jobs long because it meant another paycheck for him...
> 
> so, unfortunately, he is now looking for another job...and his family is not being taken care of...when had he just done his job, everyone would have won...


 Yes, I do. And if you have followed the the progression of talks between the UAW and Ford you would have seen enormous changes in our wages and benefits. We even allowed Ford to re-open valid contracts that we were not obligated to do and make changes in order for them to achieve profitability. Now, things are looking a little brighter
There are over 200,000 jobs involved with Ford remaining viable (And that is just FORD, alone.


----------



## user5941

480sparky said:


> You lie like a rug.
> 
> 
> 
> Would you like me to post your comments about the others you have called a rat?


 I looked and I still don't see me saying you personally were a RAT now you can assume if you like but you cannot show me directly calling you a rat now I did call Bob a rat but I was wrong he iis a weasel as you pointed out.


----------



## user5941

EDM said:


> Search for yourself there are hundreds. I am not here to do your work for you.
> 
> Again, you are DEAD wrong. It is in our bylaws, so yes, we are required to picket when called even if we are against it.
> 
> All you have done is proven that you don't know much about either non-union OR union labor.


 post you r local #, I can check the bylaws scan and post them then you will have proof I am wrong otherwise you are going to appear lame I have the internatiional bylaws and a local cannot superceed the international bylaws.


----------



## 480sparky

rewire said:


> I looked and I still don't see me saying you personally were a RAT now you can assume if you like but you cannot show me directly calling you a rat now I did call Bob a rat but I was wrong he iis a weasel as you pointed out.


What do you want? A link to a post where you state, quote, "480sparky is a rat!"?

Sorry, you called me a rat in that post. No doubt about it (except in your twisted, self-centered universe). You know next to nothing about me and my work history, yet I am a rat solely because I am not in the union and do not subscribe to your views.

And you still called Bob a rat. I only pointed out that badgers are part of the weasel family. That does not erase the fact that you called Bob a rat (except in your twisted, self-centered universe).



rewire said:


> post you r local #, I can check the bylaws scan and post them then you will have proof I am wrong otherwise you are going to appear lame I have the internatiional bylaws and a local cannot superceed the international bylaws.


So in other words, you're always right, except when proven wrong, and then you're still right?


----------



## user5941

480sparky said:


> What do you want? A link to a post where you state, quote, "480sparky is a rat!"?


 that would work,but you can't so ...


> Sorry, you called me a rat in that post. No doubt about it (except in your twisted, self-centered universe). You know next to nothing about me and my work history, yet I am a rat solely because I am not in the union and do not subscribe to your views.


 I just lead you to the door your the one who stepped through.I never said it was you,you made that leap on your own and if I am not mistaken you said I called you a RAT several times which is also a lie on your part.


> And you still called Bob a rat. I only pointed out that badgers are part of the weasel family. That does not erase the fact that you called Bob a rat (except in your twisted, self-centered universe).


 And did I say I didn't??



> So in other words, you're always right, except when proven wrong, and then you're still right?


 You are assuming facts not in evidence


----------



## macmikeman

There used to be Sugar Cane fields all over the Hawaiian Islands. Made the place look superb, no much more than superb, truly awesome. The workforce was all in unions. They were the highest paid ag workers in the country . Sugar prices were below what the companies could pay the men. For a long while the Congress propped up the mess with supports in exchange for the likely hood of votes.(it worked very well for the local senators). Then the price supports were yanked. The sugar growers offered reduced pay or shut down. The union workers refused to budge. the growers shut down. The land lies fallow for the most part now, and is erroding at a rapid rate into the sea. Thats what unions do.......


----------



## 480sparky

rewire said:


> that would work,but you can't so ...


So you just set rediculously high standards that are impossible to meet just to advance your own agenda.



rewire said:


> I just lead you to the door your the one who stepped through.I never said it was you,you made that leap on your own and if I am not mistaken you said I called you a RAT several times which is also a lie on your part.


You lead me? You don't lead me. You seem to be incapable of leading. I simply corrected you. As for not saying the rat comment was not directed at me, you responded directly to my post, quote and all. Now you're saying it was not directed at me? If not, who then?




rewire said:


> And did I say I didn't??


Yes, you did.



rewire said:


> You are assuming facts not in evidence


Now I know you're PWI.


----------



## EDM

bward76 said:


> This would be an area specific item. It is clearly in my bylaws that we have a no strike policy. Our local has not picketed since the early 80's.


We have a no strike policy as well. 

Picketing does NOT mean striking.

The picketing that I was speaking of is in front of non-union construction sites.


----------



## EDM

rewire said:


> post you r local #, I can check the bylaws scan and post them then you will have proof I am wrong otherwise you are going to appear lame I have the internatiional bylaws and a local cannot superceed the international bylaws.


Once again you just proved that you do not know what you are talking about :laughing::laughing:


----------



## user5941

macmikeman said:


> There used to be Sugar Cane fields all over the Hawaiian Islands. Made the place look superb, no much more than superb, truly awesome. The workforce was all in unions. They were the highest paid ag workers in the country . Sugar prices were below what the companies could pay the men. For a long while the Congress propped up the mess with supports in exchange for the likely hood of votes.(it worked very well for the local senators). Then the price supports were yanked. The sugar growers offered reduced pay or shut down. The union workers refused to budge. the growers shut down. The land lies fallow for the most part now, and is erroding at a rapid rate into the sea. Thats what unions do.......


 and that sugar cane is produced in many other areas were laborers get pennies an hour and that 's what colperate greed does.We want to buy cheap and sell high and their lies the problem.


----------



## user5941

EDM said:


> We have a no strike policy as well.
> 
> Picketing does NOT mean striking.
> 
> The picketing that I was speaking of is in front of non-union construction sites.


 That would be hand billing


----------



## user5941

480sparky said:


> So you just set rediculously high standards that are impossible to meet just to advance your own agenda.


 how low would you like the bar set


> You lead me? You don't lead me. You seem to be incapable of leading. I simply corrected you. As for not saying the rat comment was not directed at me, you responded directly to my post, quote and all. Now you're saying it was not directed at me? If not, who then?


 you asked a question of me and I answered then I allowed you to draw whatever conclusion you wanted from that answer.Just like the code you can draw whatever conclusion you like that doesn't make it fact.




Yes, you did.



Now I know you're PWI.[/quote]


----------



## EDM

rewire said:


> That would be hand billing


That would be PICKETING, just like it's worded in the bylaws of many locals who have no strike policies.

So tell me, if a local CAN'T require you to picket, as you ignorantly stated, then why is Local 827 getting away with it? How about Local 640? Those are the first two that popped up in a search, I'd wager that the majority of IBEW locals have this in their bylaws. I know mine does. Yes for some reason you say that's not allowed 

http://www.ibew640.org/LocalUnionBylaws.html
http://ibew827.com/strike/picket-policy


Your M.O. here is clear, you post stupid statements because you don't know any better, then when you are proven wrong you make even worse arguments.


----------



## user5941

EDM said:


> Once again you just proved that you do not know what you are talking about :laughing::laughing:


 do you get lost easily? I asked for you to post your local are you afraid to ?


----------



## EDM

rewire said:


> do you get lost easily? I asked for you to post your local are you afraid to ?


For what reason? What are you going to do with that information?

My last post proved you wrong, what more do you need?


----------



## bward76

EDM said:


> We have a no strike policy as well.
> 
> Picketing does NOT mean striking.
> 
> The picketing that I was speaking of is in front of non-union construction sites.


I see what your saying. Were you refering to the teamsters at the S.F. chronical?


----------



## EDM

bward76 said:


> I see what your saying. Were you refering to the teamsters at the S.F. chronical?


No, I was referring to the IBEW.


----------



## RIVETER

*Worker's rights*



macmikeman said:


> There used to be Sugar Cane fields all over the Hawaiian Islands. Made the place look superb, no much more than superb, truly awesome. The workforce was all in unions. They were the highest paid ag workers in the country . Sugar prices were below what the companies could pay the men. For a long while the Congress propped up the mess with supports in exchange for the likely hood of votes.(it worked very well for the local senators). Then the price supports were yanked. The sugar growers offered reduced pay or shut down. The union workers refused to budge. the growers shut down. The land lies fallow for the most part now, and is erroding at a rapid rate into the sea. Thats what unions do.......


 The sugar cane fields of Hawaii did not make the islands look awesome... quite the opposite. The "FIELDS" raveged the resources, destroyed the land and made slaves of the people. The field owners imported workers from Korea, Japan, China and other places in the world to maintain a DIVERSE workforce...A workforce that could be ethnically separated and unable to communicate on their problems. They were kept in those conditions by the plantation owners until about 1920 when they finally had developed a language of sorts and were able to communicate.THEY FOUND THEIR VOICE.


----------



## user5941

EDM said:


> That would be PICKETING, just like it's worded in the bylaws of many locals who have no strike policies.
> 
> So tell me, if a local CAN'T require you to picket, as you ignorantly stated, then why is Local 827 getting away with it? How about Local 640? Those are the first two that popped up in a search, I'd wager that the majority of IBEW locals have this in their bylaws. I know mine does. Yes for some reason you say that's not allowed
> 
> http://www.ibew640.org/LocalUnionBylaws.html
> http://ibew827.com/strike/picket-policy
> 
> 
> Your M.O. here is clear, you post stupid statements because you don't know any better, then when you are proven wrong you make even worse arguments.


A member shall not refuse to serve his/her turn for picket duty when called without a reasonable excuse. 

this allows for a reasonable excuse so you are not forced you can decline and no penalties are assesed


----------



## user5941

EDM said:


> For what reason? What are you going to do with that information?
> 
> My last post proved you wrong, what more do you need?


 just post your local is that to hard for you


----------



## 480sparky

rewire said:


> how low would you like the bar set
> you asked a question of me and I answered then I allowed you to draw whatever conclusion you wanted from that answer...........


But the rest of us aren't, at least according to you.


----------



## oldman

480, You are debating a man who not that long ago touted the business sense of Sam Walton, and proclaimed a desire to be the WalMart of the electrical world. 

Kind of a waste of time for you, huh?


----------



## 480sparky

oldman said:


> .............Kind of a waste of time for you, huh?


Not really. It's worth it just for the sheer entertainment value alone. Wrap up Jerry Seinfeld, Larry the Cable Guy, Jim Carrey and Brad Garret into one person, and you still haven't gotten the capability to get a laugh as much as this guy.


----------



## user5941

oldman said:


> 480, You are debating a man who not that long ago touted the business sense of Sam Walton, and proclaimed a desire to be the WalMart of the electrical world.
> 
> Kind of a waste of time for you, huh?


 I just love having admirers,so you read my old posts :thumbup: actually Ken just likes to argue and I like to post so it works well for us this is very relaxing from the stresses of business:thumbsup: and yes I would not mind being the largest electrical contractor in the world and the billions that go with it would be kinda nice.:thumbup:


----------



## 480sparky

rewire said:


> I just love having admirers,so you read my old posts :thumbup: actually Ken just likes to argue and I like to post so it works well for us this is very relaxing from the stresses of business..........


See, there ya go again......... assuming you know everything.



rewire said:


> ..........and yes I would not mind being the largest electrical contractor in the world and the billions that go with it would be kinda nice.:thumbup:


Of course, in order to become WalMart Electric, you'll have to give up your beloved Union...........


----------



## EDM

rewire said:


> A member shall not refuse to serve his/her turn for picket duty when called without a reasonable excuse.
> 
> this allows for a reasonable excuse so you are not forced you can decline and no penalties are assesed


Reasonable excuse is up to the e-board, and anything other than serious injury or death in the close family isn't reasonable. They've heard all the excuses in the world. The fact is that my local requires you to go to a picket when called, just like I said earlier. 

The fact is that I proved you wrong. Yet, even in your old age, you still are not man enough to admit it. A worm like you doesn't have the ability to say "maybe I was wrong".


----------



## user5941

EDM said:


> Reasonable excuse is up to the e-board, and anything other than serious injury or death in the close family isn't reasonable. They've heard all the excuses in the world. The fact is that my local requires you to go to a picket when called, just like I said earlier.
> 
> The fact is that I proved you wrong. Yet, even in your old age, you still are not man enough to admit it. A worm like you doesn't have the ability to say "maybe I was wrong".


 I was wrong you were right  even a broken clock is right twice a day :thumbsup: I know our local has no type provision and if you say no what penalty might you recieve?


----------



## user5941

480sparky said:


> See, there ya go again......... assuming you know everything.


 you are right maybe you hate arguing and this is some sort of sadomasicistic thing.



> Of course, in order to become WalMart Electric, you'll have to give up your beloved Union...........


 Why would I need to do that


----------



## 480sparky

rewire said:


> you are right maybe you hate arguing and this is some sort of sadomasicistic thing.


Again.... you're assuming things.



rewire said:


> Why would I need to do that


You're kidding, right? Seriously! You honest-to-God have no idea? You're saying you're absolutely clueless about WalMart and the union?

You need to get out more. I suggest you turn your computer off right now and go forth into the real world.


----------



## EDM

480sparky said:


> You're kidding, right? Seriously! You honest-to-God have no idea? You're saying you're absolutely clueless about WalMart and the union?


I worked at 2 Walmarts as an IBEW member, one of them was new construction. Right now there is a huge renovation going on at a nearby Walmart, all the trades are union.


----------



## 480sparky

EDM said:


> I worked at 2 Walmarts as an IBEW member, one of them was new construction. Right now there is a huge renovation going on at a nearby Walmart, all the trades are union.


 
That's fine. Try working FOR WalMart as a union member.


----------



## user5941

480sparky said:


> Again.... you're assuming things.


 no actually I was attempting to reinforce your claim by pointing out that you could easily be doing this because you need to be punished you will note i said i "could" be not it "was"


> You're kidding, right? Seriously! You honest-to-God have no idea? You're saying you're absolutely clueless about WalMart and the union?
> 
> You need to get out more. I suggest you turn your computer off right now and go forth into the real world.


Now you are asuming things ,wasn't that just what you were complaining about me? and I am also not going to have all the associates gather every morning and spell out the company name.


----------



## user5941

480sparky said:


> That's fine. Try working FOR WalMart as a union member.


 just go to work at the union WalMart store


----------



## RIVETER

Throughout my career, at least since the military, I have been a PROUD member of three unions; tobacco,construction, and automotive. What I have noticed along the way is that many companies ENJOY in-fighting amongst the employees. If they perceive you as DIVIDED they know that they can achieve what they want, without protest. There's a lot of companies out there that are great companies and care about their employees, but you still have to keep up your guard. If you don't respect each other...why should they respect you?
We may be union and non-union, but we are still brother's and sister's in the workforce and we are just trying to take care of our families as best we can.
Sometimes the best SOLIDARITY is just being silent, if we don't have something good to say.


----------



## BuzzKill

RIVETER said:


> We may be union and non-union, but we are still brother's and sister's in the workforce and we are just trying to take care of our families as best we can.
> Sometimes the best SOLIDARITY is just being silent, if we don't have something good to say.


 Huh? "brother's and sister's in the workforce"? Ludicrous. 
"Solidarity?"....socialist terms. I don't buy it. You can sell all you want but I ain't no buyer. That's the thing about Union's: they are too "inclusive": human beings are individuals, not equals, not the same machine as the next.


----------



## EDM

BuzzKill said:


> Huh? "brother's and sister's in the workforce"? Ludicrous.


Agreed.

He calls them brothers and sisters.

I call them competition.


----------



## RIVETER

BuzzKill said:


> Huh? "brother's and sister's in the workforce"? Ludicrous.
> "Solidarity?"....socialist terms. I don't buy it. You can sell all you want but I ain't no buyer. That's the thing about Union's: they are too "inclusive": human beings are individuals, not equals, not the same machine as the next.


Thank you, Buzzkill, for proving my point. AND, wasn't LUDICROUS a singer?


----------



## 480sparky

EDM said:


> Agreed.
> 
> He calls them brothers and sisters.
> 
> I call them competition.


So why are you here, hob-knobing and mingling with 'the competition'?


----------



## BuzzKill

RIVETER said:


> Thank you, Buzzkill, for proving my point. AND, wasn't LUDICROUS a singer?


 Funny.
What is your point?
In one sentance, if you don't mind, the "union drivel speak" gets tiresome.


----------



## EDM

480sparky said:


> So why are you here, hob-knobing and mingling with 'the competition'?


I'm undercover.

The second I find you to truly be competition to me, I'll take you out.


----------



## BuzzKill

EDM said:


> I'm undercover.
> 
> The second I find you to truly be competition to me, I'll take you out.


 You're a RAT in training, huh? Welcome to the dark side.


----------



## EDM

BuzzKill said:


> You're a RAT in training, huh? Welcome to the dark side.


I'm trying. It's gonna be a big jump.


----------



## bward76

480sparky said:


> So why are you here, hob-knobing and mingling with 'the competition'?





EDM said:


> I'm trying. It's gonna be a big jump.


Judging by your signature it sounds like you might be serious.


----------



## RIVETER

BuzzKill said:


> Funny.
> What is your point?
> In one sentance, if you don't mind, the "union drivel speak" gets tiresome.


I am on your side. You should be able to tell that I am on the side of all workers. I choose UNION , but I respect your choice, as well. If you are happy with the way your life is going, I say more power to you. AND, I'm sorry that it took me four sentences.

RIVETER


----------



## EDM

bward76 said:


> Judging by your signature it sounds like you might be serious.


I couldn't be more serious.


----------



## brian john

RIVETER said:


> I am on your side. You should be able to tell that I am on the side of all workers. I choose UNION , but I respect your choice, as well. If you are happy with the way your life is going, I say more power to you. AND, I'm sorry that it took me four sentences.
> 
> RIVETER


And that is the way it should be.

I think union is best for a variety of reason, though I DO NOT THINK unions are perfect.

My biggest issue has been some union members attitude the equal pay issue and the indoctrination of apprentices and, and, and, and


----------



## bward76

EDM said:


> I couldn't be more serious.


Don't let the door hit ya in the ass.


----------



## EDM

bward76 said:


> Don't let the door hit ya in the ass.


It won't, I'll leave when I am good and ready, don't worry :thumbup:


----------



## bward76

EDM said:


> It won't, I'll leave when I am good and ready, don't worry :thumbup:


I see know why you fly under the radar. A lot of people wanting to get in these days. Are you an apprentice or JW?


----------



## RIVETER

brian john said:


> And that is the way it should be.
> 
> I think union is best for a variety of reason, though I DO NOT THINK unions are perfect.
> 
> My biggest issue has been some union members attitude the equal pay issue and the indoctrination of apprentices and, and, and, and


That IS a good issue. I have worked extensively in construction , but have found that if a man /woman is not GETTING IT DONE, they are released and go back to the Hall and sign the book. If there is an obvious infraction of the contract, or labor laws it gets more complicated. I've never seen it get that
complicated.But I do understand what you are saying.


----------



## miller_elex

In the union, all electricians are equal.

Some are alot more equal than others.

Company men, suckups, and relatives, have a double-heaping share of equality.

The bench-warmers are half-equals. 

The owner's son, he's a five-equal.

To the non-union guys out there, over here you have to keep your head down, not make any waves, and stand up for yourself, more than you would think we do. But at least the wage is consistent, and there is no infighting about who got what extra, and who is cleaning under the desks in the office. It does piss me off when the slave-driver GF gets a big bonus for busting balls, and I got to hear about it through the grape vine, stuff like that is still wrong.


----------



## EDM

bward76 said:


> I see know why you fly under the radar. A lot of people wanting to get in these days. Are you an apprentice or JW?


I don't fly under the radar.

JW, why?


----------



## EDM

miller_elex said:


> But at least the wage is consistent, and there is no infighting about who got what extra,


First of all, that's not true. I worked for higher than rate many times, and all my "brothers" were mad about it.

Also, there is nothing GOOD about having a consistent wage. Why should the slug get paid the same thing as the producer? Hell, why should a good producer make the same thing as a great producer?

The only true answer you have to those questions is "to cover the slugs". Socialism is nice for you, huh?


----------



## BuzzKill

edm said:


> also, there is nothing good about having a consistent wage. Why should the slug get paid the same thing as the producer? Hell, why should a good producer make the same thing as a great producer?


 zing!


----------



## RIVETER

miller_elex said:


> In the union, all electricians are equal.
> 
> Some are alot more equal than others.
> 
> Company men, suckups, and relatives, have a double-heaping share of equality.
> 
> The bench-warmers are half-equals.
> 
> The owner's son, he's a five-equal.
> 
> To the non-union guys out there, over here you have to keep your head down, not make any waves, and stand up for yourself, more than you would think we do. But at least the wage is consistent, and there is no infighting about who got what extra, and who is cleaning under the desks in the office. It does piss me off when the slave-driver GF gets a big bonus for busting balls, and I got to hear about it through the grape vine, stuff like that is still wrong.


You can go anywhere in the United States and select 100 human beings for a test. It is most probable that 90 out of 100 will act HUMAN. People have different goals in life and react according to their needs. I honestly do remember...looking back in time, that I thought someone was a "suckie", or whatever, and when I really am honest with myself, I realize that maybe he was just willing to do a good , or better job than I was willing to do at that point in time. If you are truely satisfied with your own performance, that should be enough for you.


----------



## bward76

EDM said:


> I don't fly under the radar.
> 
> JW, why?


Just curious.


----------



## miller_elex

EDM said:


> The only true answer you have to those questions is "to cover the slugs". Socialism is nice for you, huh?


You sound like a legend in your own mind.

Every electrician thinks he is the best electrician, try to tell him different and he will think you are crazy.

Slugs work seasonally, they are there when the contractor needs them.

Listen here Hot-Shot, about socialism, I'll bet you approve of our socialist fire department, and our socialist police, our socialist public schools need improvement though. How about the military? Do you use your free socialist health benefits at the VA? Does your Granny use her socialist Medicare and social security check? Don't get your head screwed on backwards, we need some things socialized, and some things must remain competitive to thrive.

If we did not have the bare necessities of socialism in this country, you Sir, would be working for $16 a day, I don't care how 'productive' you are, and the world of contracting would be far beyond your grasp.


----------



## EDM

miller_elex said:


> You sound like a legend in your own mind.
> 
> Every electrician thinks he is the best electrician, try to tell him different and he will think you are crazy.


 That's where you are wrong. I am BY FAR not the best electrician. I am a good electrician and I work hard all day, that alone is all that's needed to make the contractor money, which is the goal.


> Slugs work seasonally, they are there when the contractor needs them.


 Slugs work when their number is called, which is any time of year.



> Listen here Hot-Shot, about socialism, I'll bet you approve of our socialist fire department, and our socialist police, our socialist public schools need improvement though. How about the military? Do you use your free socialist health benefits at the VA?


 Did each of those professions earn what they get? You tell me. There is a difference between earning and receiving without merit.


> Does your Granny use her socialist Medicare and social security check?


 My grandparents all worked hard and made good livings, they contributed more than they are getting back, that is because some of their money went to the people who didn't work as hard.


> Don't get your head screwed on backwards, we need some things socialized, and some things must remain competitive to thrive.


 We don't need anything socialized.

Do you really think it's beneficial to me to give my money away to the government in hopes to get some of it back when I retire?

I'll do my own investing, thanks.


> If we did not have the bare necessities of socialism in this country, you Sir, would be working for $16 a day, I don't care how 'productive' you are, and the world of contracting would be far beyond your grasp.


 That is a complete load of crap. Unsubstantiated drivel.


----------



## miller_elex

EDM said:


> There is a difference between earning and receiving without merit.


You're jealous. You probably have alot to say about welfare brats, anchor babies, and the such. Plain and simple, you are a bad selfish egg. You are American and middle class by the grace of God, not by your own hardwork. It is because of your good fortune that you were not born into a third world garbage dump, no way out, and compared to those down-trodden folk, you have got a whole helluvalot of toys not of your own merit. 



EDM said:


> We don't need anything socialized.


Keep your service truck off our socialized roads. 



EDM said:


> Do you really think it's beneficial to me to give my money away to the government in hopes to get some of it back when I retire?


Your money? Render unto Ceaser. 

I cave in though, I do not believe in public housing, or public health clinics, or big disability checks, food stamps, welfare, or anything like that. I think if you can't work for food, there should be a soup line, a blanket, and that's all. But don't throw away the rest of socialism like public roads, fire departments, public schools, regulation of the commons, as such, because we would be a great big mess like a third world country.


----------



## EDM

miller_elex said:


> You're jealous. You probably have alot to say about welfare brats, anchor babies, and the such.


Of course I am jealous of the leaches that take all that money out of my paycheck!


> Plain and simple, you are a bad selfish egg.


 There is nothing bad about not wanting to give my money to other people who choose not to work for it.


> You are American and middle class by the grace of God, not by your own hardwork.


 That could not be any further from the truth. I am what I am because I worked hard for it, as did my Father before me. I am 100% responsile for my success. The welfare brats that sit at him playing expensive video games and driving cars with fancy wheels while I provide their paycheck had the same choice that I did, but they chose wrong. Yet they still get the money that was stolen from me at gunpoint.


> It is because of your good fortune that you were not born into a third world garbage dump, no way out, and compared to those down-trodden folk, you have got a whole helluvalot of toys not of your own merit.


 You don't have a clue where I was born or what I was born into, or how hard I worked to make something of myself. Don't assume to know anything about me.



> Keep your service truck off our socialized roads.


 Socialized roads? Is that the best you could come up with?? lol :laughing:


----------



## user4818

miller_elex said:


> But don't throw away the rest of socialism like public roads, fire departments, public schools, regulation of the commons, as such, because we would be a great big mess like a third world country.


What have our fantastic government schools given us lately? An entire generation of semi-literate dolts.


----------



## bward76

Just curious, what's an "anchor baby"?


----------



## EDM

bward76 said:


> Just curious, what's an "anchor baby"?


When an illegal alien has a baby here, that baby becomes a citizen and the parents get to stay here and take our tax money and healthcare and drive with no car insurance, etc.


----------



## oldman

Peter D said:


> What have our fantastic government schools given us lately? An entire generation of semi-literate dolts.


hey, the world needs electricians too


----------



## user4818

bward76 said:


> Just curious, what's an "anchor baby"?


You live in California and don't know what an "anchor baby" is? :blink:

A baby born in the U.S (automatic citizen) to an illegal alien mother.


----------



## user4818

oldman said:


> hey, the world needs electricians too


:lol:

How true. :laughing::laughing:


----------



## bward76

Peter D said:


> You live in California and don't know what an "anchor baby" is? :blink:
> 
> A baby born in the U.S (automatic citizen) to an illegal alien mother.


I never claimed to be the sharpest tool in the shed. Very aware of the problem just never paid attention to the term. Guess you learn something everyday. :thumbup:


----------



## LJSMITH1

*Socialism..*

Let's recap some basic facts, OK?:thumbsup:

Definition of Socialism from American Heritage Dictionary:

*so·cial·ism *


*NOUN:* 
Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.
The stage in Marxist-Leninist theory intermediate between capitalism and communism, in which collective ownership of the economy under the dictatorship of the proletariat has not yet been successfully achieved.
Socialism is essentially defined as a centrally planned economy in which the government controls all means of production - and distributes said production onto ALL - equally.

Police Departments, Fire Departments, Sanitation Departments, DOT's etc. are all SERVICE organizations and are paid for by citizen taxpayers and administered by democratically elected or appointed administrators. These in themselves are nothing close to "socialism". However, the unions that dominate many of these organizations are closer to socialism because they use collective bargaining processes that only benefits their own members and not all. Many Unions are also exclusive, as they don't just accept anyone off the street. 

I believe Unions operate more like Labor Cartels. They seek a monopoly of labor in certain skilled trades, and employ various tactics to increase their monopoly over non-unionized individuals. By controlling available labor, companies looking to hire will have no recourse because there is no "other" labor available. By limiting labor, they can then artificially drive up wages and benefits - and indirectly their own membership incomes. Its a self-preservation, self-driving motivation. Rather than a true market force like supply and demand or productivity to drive labor values, they look to limit labor availability and hold the employer hostage until demands are met.

Here's a couple of interesting articles:

http://www.cdobs.com/archive/featured/the-labor-cartel-vs-the-rest-of-the-country,20001

http://www.heritage.org/research/labor/bg2775.cfm

For the record, I am not anti-union, nor am I pro-union. I have a "live and let live" mutual respect philosophy. I also take a pragmatic approach to try and understand why some people are so militant about their beliefs.


----------



## EDM

ljsmith1, my calling the union socialist was describing the way all men make the same amount no matter how much they produce, no matter how good they are at their job.


----------



## RIVETER

*Worker's Rights To LJSMITH1*

I am not militant at all. I am proud to be a union member but I respect the rights of others to live, and work as they want. At intervals maybe a union will approach you or your fellow workers and want to give information about the benefits of going union. To me, that is okay. I do not like strong arm tactics...but the workers, themselves, should be able to make their own decision by a majority of the workforce. And be able to make that decision without strong arm tactics of the employer, as well.
I am not trying to change your mind. I respect your opinion...you seem knowlegeable, and speak well. Just don't be angry at all of us.


----------



## LJSMITH1

EDM said:


> ljsmith1, my calling the union socialist was describing the way all men make the same amount no matter how much they produce, no matter how good they are at their job.


 
I understand, but some other folks might not.


----------



## LJSMITH1

RIVETER said:


> I am not militant at all. I am proud to be a union member but I respect the rights of others to live, and work as they want. At intervals maybe a union will approach you or your fellow workers and want to give information about the benefits of going union. To me, that is okay. I do not like strong arm tactics...but the workers, themselves, should be able to make their own decision by a majority of the workforce. And be able to make that decision without strong arm tactics of the employer, as well.
> I am not trying to change your mind. I respect your opinion...you seem knowlegeable, and speak well. Just don't be angry at all of us.


 
Honestly, Riveter, where do you interpret that I am "angry" at anyone??:001_huh: I never called you a "militant" either...:001_huh:

In the end, remember debate is communication. Its all good.


----------



## IRMAN

*Workers Rights*

Again I think we have drifted off the subject somewhat. The market dictates price. You can not bid a job at a $100 and someone else bid is $20 per hour for the same type of work. I would like to look at workers rights they are not the same as others, the employer has the right to search and seize at will. Lunch boxes, lockers, toolboxes etc. no search warrant is needed or cause. I worked at a union job and the employer searched lunch boxes on the way in and would seize anything made of glass. They had a fear that someone would get cut.I am serious you can make up stuff like that. Workers rights are violated everyday.


----------



## EDM

IRMAN said:


> Again I think we have drifted off the subject somewhat. The market dictates price. You can not bid a job at a $100 and someone else bid is $20 per hour for the same type of work. I would like to look at workers rights they are not the same as others, the employer has the right to search and seize at will. Lunch boxes, lockers, toolboxes etc. no search warrant is needed or cause. I worked at a union job and the employer searched lunch boxes on the way in and would seize anything made of glass. They had a fear that someone would get cut.I am serious you can make up stuff like that. Workers rights are violated everyday.


I believe in freedom. Luckily, we have that right now.

If you don't like that your employer is searching thru your toolbag upon entry into their site, you are free to walk away. It's called voting with your feet, and it is the fabric upon which this great country is built.

The issue that you have is that you feel you are entitled to that particular job, and you want to make up rules restricting the freedom of your employer.

Vote with your feet, if enough people feel the way you do the employers won't have the manpower they need and they will change their rules. It's such a simple and effective concept, we do all the work while keeping the government out of it, how much better can you get?


----------



## RIVETER

*Worker's rights*



IRMAN said:


> Again I think we have drifted off the subject somewhat. The market dictates price. You can not bid a job at a $100 and someone else bid is $20 per hour for the same type of work. I would like to look at workers rights they are not the same as others, the employer has the right to search and seize at will. Lunch boxes, lockers, toolboxes etc. no search warrant is needed or cause. I worked at a union job and the employer searched lunch boxes on the way in and would seize anything made of glass. They had a fear that someone would get cut.I am serious you can make up stuff like that. Workers rights are violated everyday.


Was the lunchbox union made?


----------



## LJSMITH1

IRMAN said:


> Again I think we have drifted off the subject somewhat. The market dictates price.


Correct.



IRMAN said:


> You can not bid a job at a $100 and someone else bid is $20 per hour for the same type of work.


Why not? It does not mean that the employer will actually take that $20/hr quote when everyone else is between $100/hr and $85/hr. If EVERYONE was at the same price (apples to apples), then market price would dictate that all quotes are in the same general range. The differences come in with the non-tangible tings like value-added services, warranty's, etc. Those things would then win the bid (or lose it) Don't worry, the guy charging $20/hr won't be in business long if the market value is true. You don't need a union for that.



IRMAN said:


> I worked at a union job and the employer searched lunch boxes on the way in and would seize anything made of glass. They had a fear that someone would get cut.I am serious you can make up stuff like that. Workers rights are violated everyday.


How is it a "right" for a worker to have something made of glass on a jobsite?? :001_huh: Did it ever occur to you that maybe that they have had injuries due to broken glass on the jobsite and they are legally liable for not correcting the problem (OSHA fines, etc)? If there are published work rules or regulations prohibiting such material on a job site, then employers have every right to search and seize them - especially if there are continued violations. If they didn't alert anyone before the job started that it would be a violation, then they are wrong for doing that without prior notice. The supervisor or manager's primary function is to ensure workers follow established company policies (conduct, safety, etc.). Period. If they did not communicate this to all workers, then they are at fault - personally.


----------



## EDM

IRMAN said:


> no search warrant is needed


Private organizations can't get search warrants, only authorities.

Private organizations don't need search warrants because *you agree to let them search your lunch or tool box*.

If you don't want them to search, they have no right to. You simply turn around and walk away. However, if you want to enter their site, you must first agree to their terms.

If I want to search you for a firearm before I let you enter my house, I can do that. If you don't like it, I can stop you from entering. What are you gonna do, call the ACLU on me?


----------



## LGLS

oldman said:


> and the workforce would be twiddling their thumbs without people risking everything they have to hire them...either directly as employees, or by hiring the companies they work for....
> 
> but hey, socialism is on it's way, so hold your 'spread the wealth' theory for a few more years and you'll be set...


So the choices, as I think you see them, are:

-Workers have rights, benefits, pensions, healthcare, and the owner "who risked it all" ends up whith little or nothing...

or...

-The world adopts your plantation mentality and the owner lives in the lap of luxury while the workers live off the scraps.

... and there's no fair medium?


----------



## EDM

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> ... and there's no fair medium?


No, their is no "fair" medium. There is only what the employer is willing to pay. If you don't think that is fair, go find another employer. If you can't find another employer, then it times to understand that your job is not worth that much.


----------



## LGLS

RIVETER said:


> oldman...I do not know how old you are, but I hope that you have not given up. There is a great difference between SHARING THE WEALTH and EARNING THE WEALTH. If you don't believe that your labor does entitle you to a PIECE of the action, live with it. Don't bring the rest of us down.


Ahhh but you forget - one way to make money is to partake in the risk game and win, another IS to take others down and make them give up their dreams in leiu of your own.


----------



## LGLS

oldman said:


> i know this....i can't pay a guy $200,000 a year, if he only generates $150,000 a year...no matter how legendary he is in his own mind...


I'm with you 100%.

Are your books that transparent? Right now, some contractors are asking for givebacks because they're "losing money." None will open their books for us, as we stand by the threshold of 49.00 an hour to 51.00 an hour in our next contract.

Think maybe the contractors are F.O.S? I do. 

Amazingly, in this economy, some of the businessmen who "risked everything" expect THEIR income to increase every year, but... not their worker's wages. And for some reason, expect that when the going gets tough, the workers should suffer the pitfalls, but never the employers themselves.

Doesn't sound too "risky" to me, when an employer has the ability to use his employees as a "cushion" to prevent themselves from ever feeling the pinch.


----------



## user4818

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> So the choices, as I think you see them, are:
> 
> -Workers have rights, benefits, pensions, healthcare, and the owner "who risked it all" ends up whith little or nothing...
> 
> or...
> 
> -The world adopts your plantation mentality and the owner lives in the lap of luxury while the workers live off the scraps.
> 
> ... and there's no fair medium?


:sleep1:



LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Ahhh but you forget - one way to make money is to partake in the risk game and win, another IS to take others down and make them give up their dreams in leiu of your own.


:sleep1:



LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> I'm with you 100%.
> 
> Are your books that transparent? Right now, some contractors are asking for givebacks because they're "losing money." None will open their books for us, as we stand by the threshold of 49.00 an hour to 51.00 an hour in our next contract.
> 
> Think maybe the contractors are F.O.S? I do.
> 
> Amazingly, in this economy, some of the businessmen who "risked everything" expect THEIR income to increase every year, but... not their worker's wages. And for some reason, expect that when the going gets tough, the workers should suffer the pitfalls, but never the employers themselves.
> 
> Doesn't sound too "risky" to me, when an employer has the ability to use his employees as a "cushion" to prevent themselves from ever feeling the pinch.


:sleep1:


----------



## BryanMD

hmmm


----------



## LGLS

Bob Badger said:


> I don't know if it is funny or sad that you belive all that load of crap.:laughing:
> 
> Yes, some non-union shops suck no doubt at all about that.
> 
> Some halls suck, no doubt about that either.
> 
> 
> But heres the thing, I belive in being a man and watching out for myself.


*Most people do. But how much of a "man" can you be IF ... one step outta line and you're out of a job? I suspect after your 2nd or 3rd firing you'd end up not 1/2 the man I think you'd like to think that you are. And the REASON I think that is because you tend to equate union membership as being anti-manly. *

*Well Bob, I'm man enough to take VERY good care of my family. And man enough to know very FEW workers who have no representation get a fair shake, and man enough to know how business owners treat men who try to act like men, and what happens to ONE individual worker who tries to act like an individual when their are 150 applications sitting on the boss's desk. *

*Some people are man enough to get smart enough to join in large groups, because you are not a man without POWER, and you have no POWER when you stand alone, as one individual, because as one you cannot financially impact anything, at least not like the power you can wield when EVERYONE is in it together as one group. *



> I don't need a mob to get what I need or want. If I worked at a shop that tried to take advantage of me I would .... and pay attention becuse it's pretty radical .... I would quit and work at another shop.


Assuming another shop would give you what you want.



> Its called taking care of yourself, don't wait for someone to hold your hand. If you can't take care of yourself then your screwed and you should be.


Not at all. You cannot take care of yourself. You live in a society. You depend on others and others depend on you. There are handholders, but there's a difference between a handout and a handUP. There's strength in numbers, always has been and always will be. 

Ordinary people, people like me and poeple like you I suspect - nobodys in the grand scheme of things are powerless to change things or to better their lot as individuals acting alone on their own behalf... but group together... and the powerful have no choice but to listen and to respect that. 

You can define that as a "mob" if it makes you feel better. But remember mobs got women the right to vote. Got blacks their freedom. Allowed interracial marriage. And got this country out of the clutches of England.


----------



## EDM

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> And man enough to know very FEW workers who have no representation get a fair shake,


What does the union represent, about 7% of the nations jobs?

Are you honestly trying to tell me that 93% of the people working in this country aren't getting a fair shake? 

Do you actually believe what you type?


----------



## LGLS

480sparky said:


> You don't get out much, do you?
> 
> Do you honestly think this is the only way it is outside the union? Or is this just the union hall rhetoric that's been drilled into your brain so often and so much that you blindly accept it as 'truth'?
> 
> 
> FWIW, the last shop I worked at as an employee, every raise I got was not by kissing the boss's áss or sucking on his dîck. And it wasn't tied to a scheduled performance review either.
> 
> The boss would just walk up to me one day on the job site and say "Hey, you've been doing such good work we're going to raise your hourly rate by $x.00 an hour". Sometimes it was $1. Sometimes $2. Once it was $4.
> 
> If being a rat means working for money, and working harder for more money, then lead me to the cheese.


And this is of course, typical... right?

Now explain why Journeymen in Florida are working for $9.00 an hour, no benifits, no pension?

Despite your own personal experiences, union workers earn more. 

I just bought and renovated 2 houses in a not-so-good part of Long Island, speent most of the summer working on them, and guess who the tenants are? One is working for a nonunion electrician and the other is a nonunion home improvement contractor working for himself and somtimes other contractors. Their paystubs FLOORED me. I could not fathom that anybody working with tools for someone else could possibly work for less than 35.00 an hour... 

How does $18.00 grab you? On Long Island, New York?

That's poverty my friend. 

Now in the 70's a local electrical contractor had 4-6 employees and they lived locally - this guy now has over 15 men and they're all from 50 miles East in a very poor crime and drug infested town. THIS is how some businessmen "risk it all" to earn their own living. 

Unions may not be perfect, and every entity or group has it's inherant flaws... but as an electrician, working for a contractor, there's no way you can compare the benefits of working union to being an employee of a rat contractor.


----------



## LGLS

Bob Badger said:


> Sounds like you where a first class patsy.
> 
> Did you ever think of refusing to work for those types of shops?
> 
> Maybe quiting and finding a good shop?
> 
> If anyone likes to work union thats great, more power to them. It's a big world with lots of choices. But shut the F up about things you obviously do not know about. Not all open shops treat the workers like you _let yourself_ be treated.


So.. you ADMIT there are open shops that WILL treat their workers like S*^T... but NOT if you're "a man"...

RIGHT BOB?!?!?!


----------



## user4818

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> And this is of course, typical... right?
> 
> Now explain why Journeymen in Florida are working for $9.00 an hour, no benifits, no pension?
> 
> Despite your own personal experiences, union workers earn more.
> 
> I just bought and renovated 2 houses in a not-so-good part of Long Island, speent most of the summer working on them, and guess who the tenants are? One is working for a nonunion electrician and the other is a nonunion home improvement contractor working for himself and somtimes other contractors. Their paystubs FLOORED me. I could not fathom that anybody working with tools for someone else could possibly work for less than 35.00 an hour...
> 
> How does $18.00 grab you? On Long Island, New York?
> 
> That's poverty my friend.
> 
> Now in the 70's a local electrical contractor had 4-6 employees and they lived locally - this guy now has over 15 men and they're all from 50 miles East in a very poor crime and drug infested town. THIS is how some businessmen "risk it all" to earn their own living.
> 
> Unions may not be perfect, and every entity or group has it's inherant flaws... but as an electrician, working for a contractor, there's no way you can compare the benefits of working union to being an employee of a rat contractor.


:sleep1:



LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> So.. you ADMIT there are open shops that WILL treat their workers like S*^T... but NOT if you're "a man"...
> 
> RIGHT BOB?!?!?!


:sleep1:


----------



## al13nw4r3LC76

damn cheese eaters... :thumbsup:


----------



## LGLS

Bob Badger said:


> So your answer is to demand high wages in times of 15% unemployment. Good plan, can you explain where that money might come from?
> 
> Kind of short sighted but that is your choice.
> 
> Lawnguysparky is always quick to say thinks like
> 
> _'I would rather work for $80 per hr for 1/2 year than $40 for a full year.'_
> 
> It's really a great sound bite, it would play well on the news. But the reality is most will be lucky if they work at all this year for $80 per hr.


Well Bob, you're fudging the numbers a bit, but the math still works so it's all good.

So.. yes. I'd rather work for (right now it's $49.00 an hour) (plus foreman, 4+ 4+ 4+ 4+ supervision)((That varies depending on the # of men and the # of straws on the job)) company car and gas card... for 1/2 a year than work for 1/2 that the full year.

Now when prospects for work, like in today's economy are slight, tell me why I or anybody should work for less? Has the cost of anything gone down? No. WHen there isn't a lot of work, the number of jobs will NOT INCREASE if people just agreed to work for less. The number of opportunities remains the same, only people are making less if they accept less. Who does that help? Not me, Not you. Not anybody except that one or two people doling out the limited opportunity.


----------



## LGLS

brian john said:


> 80% of my work is completed without a contract. So blows that idea.


80% of your work probably isn't worth putting in writing.

My last 2-week job contract was 2.2 million. Didn't get a wink of sleep. It's in writing.


----------



## BuzzKill

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Not at all. You cannot take care of yourself. You live in a society. You depend on others and others depend on you. There are handholders, but there's a difference between a handout and a handUP. There's strength in numbers, always has been and always will be.
> 
> Ordinary people, people like me and poeple like you I suspect - nobodys in the grand scheme of things are powerless to change things or to better their lot as individuals acting alone on their own behalf... but group together... and the powerful have no choice but to listen and to respect that.
> 
> You can define that as a "mob" if it makes you feel better. But remember mobs got women the right to vote. Got blacks their freedom. Allowed interracial marriage. And got this country out of the clutches of England.


 All very profound, however simplistic it is. 
You guys are socialists, admit as such!
So we are all "equal" now in society, why bother with unions?
Workers are NOT equal. Damn, man. No human being is as good as another, worker-wise (unless you want to talk Nietszchian philosophy).


----------



## LGLS

LJSMITH1 said:


> I didn't say I didn't agree that it was probably a good move personally, but it flies in the face of the "Solidarity" and "Brotherhood" speeches Mr. Rewire was lecturing us with earlier. If the Local doesn't have a residential program, why should he have to drop his card? Is there a work rule or dues issue that I don't understand? While he may not be accused of taking away a job from a Union Brother (because there is no established Union residential program in his area), the Union still needs his dues to fund the pension and heath benefit plans that many of his "brothers" rely on.
> 
> Is union membership easy to turn off and on at will? I was under the impression that it was very difficult.
> 
> :blink:


No, union dues don't fund the health benefits or pension plan. 

Rewires situation as I see it is similar to NYC local 3's in regards to RESIDENTIAL work - there is no "residential" (as in... houses - wood- framed wired with romex) division. The "rats" have that market totally and breaking into it from a financial standpoint requires rules to be broken, bent, or ignored in order to achieve an ultimate goal.

Shelving a card to start a business is not frowned upon.


----------



## RIVETER

*worker's rights*



LJSMITH1 said:


> Honestly, Riveter, where do you interpret that I am "angry" at anyone??:001_huh: I never called you a "militant" either...:001_huh:
> 
> In the end, remember debate is communication. Its all good.


I agree; Sorry if I misunderstood. It' hard to keep track on this forum of who to be snotty to.


----------



## LGLS

brian john said:


> And the union would get more members if they were OPEN and quit trashing open shop men.
> 
> Other than RIVERTER I seldom see the die hard union men posting anything in the electrical portion of this ELECTRICAL FORUM, and RIVERTER took a beating on a few issues. Lots to say here nothing to add in the skills section.MMMMMMMM?????????????


There's a skills section???


----------



## user4818

Long Island Electrician, do you enjoy talking to yourself this much?


----------



## BuzzKill

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> *Most people do. But how much of a "man" can you be IF ... one step outta line and you're out of a job? I suspect after your 2nd or 3rd firing you'd end up not 1/2 the man I think you'd like to think that you are. And the REASON I think that is because you tend to equate union membership as being anti-manly. *
> 
> *Well Bob, I'm man enough to take VERY good care of my family. And man enough to know very FEW workers who have no representation get a fair shake, and man enough to know how business owners treat men who try to act like men, and what happens to ONE individual worker who tries to act like an individual when their are 150 applications sitting on the boss's desk. *
> 
> *Some people are man enough to get smart enough to join in large groups, because you are not a man without POWER, and you have no POWER when you stand alone, as one individual, because as one you cannot financially impact anything, at least not like the power you can wield when EVERYONE is in it together as one group. *
> 
> 
> 
> Assuming another shop would give you what you want.
> 
> 
> 
> Not at all. You cannot take care of yourself. You live in a society. You depend on others and others depend on you. There are handholders, but there's a difference between a handout and a handUP. There's strength in numbers, always has been and always will be.
> 
> Ordinary people, people like me and poeple like you I suspect - nobodys in the grand scheme of things are powerless to change things or to better their lot as individuals acting alone on their own behalf... but group together... and the powerful have no choice but to listen and to respect that.
> 
> You can define that as a "mob" if it makes you feel better. But remember mobs got women the right to vote. Got blacks their freedom. Allowed interracial marriage. And got this country out of the clutches of England.


 Don't mess with Bob. I got Bob's back.


----------



## LGLS

oldman said:


> do you hold the reverse to be true? if they lose money because of a royal screwup on your part, should you be responsible for some of the loss?
> 
> *Not unless you made a deal with him that allows that. Otherwise, you agreed to X# $$$ per hour.
> 
> Did you agree to pay based on job earnings, that he'd get a %? *
> 
> Ford had a $1bil profit for the last quarter, 14 and a half more quarters like that will make up for the loss's of last year...
> 
> it has to be a give and take, not a one way street....this isn't aimed at you personally, just a general reference...
> 
> [b/] But "Ford" didn't lose - the stockholders who took that risk lost. And the stockholders who bought low and just sold high gained. Is it your contention that employees of a coropration should take all the heat but never the windfall porofits???[/b]
> 
> we just let a guy go because he felt i was responsible for supporting his family...wanted the paycheck, wanted the hours....but didn't feel necessary to produce anything in the hours he was on the clock...was happy to run jobs long because it meant another paycheck for him...
> 
> so, unfortunately, he is now looking for another job...and his family is not being taken care of...when had he just done his job, everyone would have won...


*Would they? You said "jobs" I assume he's run a bit of work for you. How is it that just now you're discovering he's been running jobs "long?" COuld it be you haven't bee "directly supervising" as your license requires you to do? And if not, why not? *


----------



## 480sparky

LGLS is back.:laughing:​


----------



## LGLS

macmikeman said:


> There used to be Sugar Cane fields all over the Hawaiian Islands. Made the place look superb, no much more than superb, truly awesome. The workforce was all in unions. They were the highest paid ag workers in the country . Sugar prices were below what the companies could pay the men. For a long while the Congress propped up the mess with supports in exchange for the likely hood of votes.(it worked very well for the local senators). Then the price supports were yanked. The sugar growers offered reduced pay or shut down. The union workers refused to budge. the growers shut down. The land lies fallow for the most part now, and is erroding at a rapid rate into the sea. Thats what unions do.......


Sure...

Not to mention weekends, paid holidays, workers comp, labor laws, pensions, benefits, minimun wage, OSHA, ... yea... causing sugar cane fields to become seawater is all that unions do....


----------



## RIVETER

*worker's rights*



LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Sure...
> 
> Not to mention weekends, paid holidays, workers comp, labor laws, pensions, benefits, minimun wage, OSHA, ... yea... causing sugar cane fields to become seawater is all that unions do....


I will comment, only to say that I have a previous post about this, and it is a shame what really happened.


----------



## user4818

480sparky said:


> ​




No, but this thread is surely going to get a lot more boring.​


----------



## LGLS

EDM said:


> First of all, that's not true. I worked for higher than rate many times, and all my "brothers" were mad about it.
> 
> Also, there is nothing GOOD about having a consistent wage. Why should the slug get paid the same thing as the producer? Hell, why should a good producer make the same thing as a great producer?
> 
> The only true answer you have to those questions is "to cover the slugs". Socialism is nice for you, huh?


Just to keep this short, simple, and on-point...

Electricians (working) all work for a living. Union or non.

The slugs are only employed during the most dire shortages - so right now, they're non existant.

Everyone produces. The go-getter, the not just better than good but "great producer" is simply overachieving and putting others out of work. No need to reward him. Because anyone who works like that, consistantly, has a low self-esteem and a deep-seeded need to outshine others in order to justify his own self-worth. 

I like to put guys like that on a sluggish, stalled aspect of a project they just cannot do quickly or well. 

Nobody should have to work like an animal to survive.


----------



## EDM

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> The slugs are only employed during the most dire shortages - so right now, they're non existant.


That's completely untrue. We just got a batch of slugs from the hall a couple weeks ago. For you to say that they are non-existent is completely ludicrous. 

The rest of your post is simply more union drivel, what's the point in responding?


----------



## B4T

480sparky said:


> LGLS is back.:laughing:​


:laughing::laughing::laughing:


----------



## user4818

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Nobody should have to work like an animal to survive.



"...if any should not work, then neither should he eat."


----------



## LGLS

Hmmm...



EDM said:


> That's where you are wrong. I am BY FAR not the best electrician. I am a good electrician and I work hard all day, that alone is all that's needed to make the contractor money, which is the goal.
> 
> *Try working smart sometime. I never "worked hard" a day in my life.*
> 
> Slugs work when their number is called, which is any time of year.
> 
> *Not for long. Slugs warm the bench. Contractors generally do not layoff the producers.*
> 
> Did each of those professions earn what they get? You tell me. There is a difference between earning and receiving without merit.
> 
> *Without a personnell file review - you cannot know if cop A and cop B or Teacher A and teacher B worked equally for equal pay. But over a lifetime or a career do you think there's any measurable difference? *
> 
> My grandparents all worked hard and made good livings, they contributed more than they are getting back, that is because some of their money went to the people who didn't work as hard.
> 
> *Grandparents couldn't have possibly put in as much as they're getting in today's dollars.*
> 
> We don't need anything socialized.
> 
> *The fact that you can travel on a public highway to get to work proves otherwise.*
> 
> Do you really think it's beneficial to me to give my money away to the government in hopes to get some of it back when I retire?
> 
> *It won't, it's not supposed to. You'll get a part of your grandkid's earnings, just like your grandparent's are getting yours.*
> 
> I'll do my own investing, thanks.
> 
> *Funny how the cries to invest Social Security in the stock market, to privitize it, FELL SILENT when the stock market bottomed out...*
> 
> That is a complete load of crap. Unsubstantiated drivel.


----------



## EDM

Peter D said:


> "...if any should not work, then neither should he eat."


LGLS wants to hear "_From each according to his ability, to each according to his need._"


----------



## LGLS

oldman said:


> hey, the world needs electricians too


OK, now that was funny! :thumbsup::laughing::laughing:


----------



## B4T

LawnGuy.. what town did you get the houses in?


----------



## LGLS

EDM said:


> Vote with your feet, if enough people feel the way you do the employers won't have the manpower they need and they will change their rules. It's such a simple and effective concept, we do all the work while keeping the government out of it, how much better can you get?


*You just described unionism.*


----------



## EDM

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> *You just described unionism.*


No, I did not. Unions doesn't push to walk away and find another employer like I said, they stay and do whatever it takes to extort their current employer into giving them more and more until the employer either closes up shop or moves to a different state/country.


----------



## LGLS

EDM said:


> What does the union represent, about 7% of the nations jobs?
> 
> Are you honestly trying to tell me that 93% of the people working in this country aren't getting a fair shake?
> 
> Do you actually believe what you type?


14% and decreasing. 

Let's see... 

-people losing pensions
-jobs not offering benefits
-employers misclassifying employees as managenmet exempt to thwart overtime rules
-housing costing over 25% monthly gross
-wealthy class expanding, middle class shrinking...

Yea, 93% might be about right.


----------



## LGLS

480sparky said:


> LGLS is back.:laughing:​


Kewl, you made that just for me?!


----------



## LGLS

Peter D said:


> No, but this thread is surely going to get a lot more boring.


Feel free to click elsewhere, as you've contributed nothing.


----------



## 480sparky

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Kewl, you made that just for me?!


Just the blue letters.



LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Feel free to click elsewhere, as you've contributed nothing.


Isn't that Peter's Legacy? :laughing:


----------



## LGLS

EDM said:


> That's completely untrue. We just got a batch of slugs from the hall a couple weeks ago. For you to say that they are non-existent is completely ludicrous.


If you got a slug, lay it off. If you don't - your problem. 



> The rest of your post is simply more union drivel, what's the point in responding?


Well, you did didn't you? You tell me.


----------



## LGLS

Black4Truck said:


> LawnGuy.. what town did you get the houses in?


Huh? I haven't done houses since the 80's. Country Woods in Commack was my last development.


----------



## EDM

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> If you got a slug, lay it off. If you don't - your problem.


 Everyone is a slug, you know how hard it is to get a good worker out of the IBEW??

All of them have your mentality, that they can stroll around and wire up a light per hour for $47/hr and great benefits. Why work hard when you can be union?


----------



## user4818

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Feel free to click elsewhere, as you've contributed nothing.



Actually, I refuted your statement that "Nobody should have to work like an animal to survive."


----------



## LGLS

EDM said:


> No, I did not. Unions doesn't push to walk away and find another employer like I said, they stay and do whatever it takes to extort their current employer into giving them more and more until the employer either closes up shop or moves to a different state/country.


Really? There's 100's here who didn't do thet. They stayed and they continue to honor the agreement and sit down and bargian every 3 years.

So, I guess you're wrong about that.


----------



## EDM

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Huh? I haven't done houses since the 80's. Country Woods in Commack was my last development.





> I just bought and renovated 2 houses in a not-so-good part of Long Island


Can't keep up with your lies?


----------



## EDM

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Really? There's 100's here who didn't do thet. They stayed and they continue to honor the agreement and sit down and bargian every 3 years.
> 
> So, I guess you're wrong about that.


You simply haven't bled them dry just yet.


----------



## B4T

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Huh? I haven't done houses since the 80's. Country Woods in Commack was my last development.


I was asking about the (2) foreclosures you bought and renovated this summer


----------



## LGLS

480sparky said:


> Just the blue letters.


Oh I see. Cool nonetheless.



> Isn't that Peter's Legacy? :laughing:


I had forgotten. Thanks for reminding me...


----------



## LGLS

EDM said:


> Everyone is a slug, you know how hard it is to get a good worker out of the IBEW??
> 
> All of them have your mentality, that they can stroll around and wire up a light per hour for $47/hr and great benefits. Why work hard when you can be union?


If this is your summarization of union employment, mind telling me how there are so many successful union employers out there?

Ever think maybe it's you?


----------



## EDM

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> If this is your summarization of union employment, mind telling me how there are so many successful union employers out there?


 Their are plenty of successful people in the world who had lots of money extorted from them, what's your point?


> Ever think maybe it's you?


You wanna take a poll on that? Setup a vote, I dare you.


----------



## LGLS

EDM said:


> Can't keep up with your lies?


You don't understand - I haven't WIRED houses since the 80's.

The 2 houses I BOUGHT. Renovated, and am now renting out. This has nothing to do with my employmnet as an IBEW electrician, although I did rewire those houses, as 60a services and Despard devices seemed... inadequate. Cool... but inadequate.


----------



## EDM

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> You don't understand - I haven't WIRED houses since the 80's.
> 
> The 2 houses I BOUGHT. Renovated, and am now renting out. This has nothing to do with my employmnet as an IBEW electrician, although I did rewire those houses, as 60a services and Despard devices seemed... inadequate. Cool... but inadequate.


Blah blah blah.


----------



## 480sparky

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> You don't understand - I haven't WIRED houses since the 80's.
> 
> The 2 houses I BOUGHT. Renovated, and am now renting out. This has nothing to do with my employmnet as an IBEW electrician, although I did rewire those houses, as 60a services and Despard devices seemed... inadequate. Cool... but inadequate.


So what's 'inadequate' about Despard?


----------



## LGLS

480sparky said:


> So what's 'inadequate' about Despard?


Couldn't find switchplates that matched the wall color. Switches were brownish / black, not modern. I needed white or something light so just went with "ALMOND" (the new Ivory) all around.


----------



## bward76

EDM said:


> Everyone is a slug, you know how hard it is to get a good worker out of the IBEW??
> 
> All of them have your mentality, that they can stroll around and wire up a light per hour for $47/hr and great benefits. Why work hard when you can be union?


You must have huge shoulders carrying the entire IBEW. Speak for yourself badass.


----------



## user4818

bward76 said:


> You must have huge shoulders carrying the entire IBEW. Speak for yourself badass.


He's generalizing.


----------



## EDM

bward76 said:


> You must have huge shoulders carrying the entire IBEW. Speak for yourself badass.


Actually, they are pretty broad.

Unfortunately I can't carry the entire IBEW.

The few of us that actually work for our paycheck just can't keep up, the slugs are winning. When it's finally over, I'm sure you'll find someone else to blame, as usual...


----------



## bward76

EDM said:


> Actually, they are pretty broad.
> 
> Unfortunately I can't carry the entire IBEW.
> 
> The few of us that actually work for our paycheck just can't keep up, the slugs are winning. When it's finally over, I'm sure you'll find someone else to blame, as usual...


I have no one to blame for my success but myself. In 15 years I've been on the books only a few times when I felt like traveling. It just irritates me to hear an IBEW member **** talking the members so much. Maybe it's the case out there but I doubt it.


----------



## EDM

bward76 said:


> I have no one to blame for my success but myself. In 15 years I've been on the books only a few times when I felt like traveling. It just irritates me to hear an IBEW member **** talking the members so much. Maybe it's the case out there but I doubt it.


I'm sure you are a good worker, there are many of them in the IBEW.

However, there are also a LOT of a slugs. For you to deny that means you've either had your eyes shut or just haven't been around too many other men from the hall.

FWIW, I was with a shop for the last 3 years that pretty much kept their men and didn't call the hall very often. Because of that, all I saw were the hard working shop guys. That might be your situation. But as soon as we got a larger job and needed more manpower, BAM! We were hit with an influx of GARBAGE.

How could a man who is making a package of $75 per hour possibly think it's right to stop working at 2:45, knowing that he is paid until 3:30? How could he think it's ok to take 15 minutes extra on break, 20 minutes extra on lunch, and then go get lost for 30 minutes while he is "going to the bathroom"? How could a man think it's ok to wire up lights slowly for $75 per hour because he doesn't want to start a new task?

The funny thing is how LGLS defends this, I worked in NYC, I worked next to local 3 members, I was DISGUSTED.


----------



## nolabama

brian john said:


> If I die and go to Heaven and Bob Badger is God, I will take the elevator to hell.


ahmen brother


----------



## LGLS

EDM said:


> I'm sure you are a good worker, there are many of them in the IBEW.
> 
> However, there are also a LOT of a slugs. For you to deny that means you've either had your eyes shut or just haven't been around too many other men from the hall.
> 
> *Every employer has a workforce that fits into a bell-curve. Call the least-productive "slugs" if you want. But don't think for a minute there aren't any slugs working nonunion or for an "IECA" contractor. *
> 
> FWIW, I was with a shop for the last 3 years that pretty much kept their men and didn't call the hall very often. Because of that, all I saw were the hard working shop guys. That might be your situation. But as soon as we got a larger job and needed more manpower, BAM! We were hit with an influx of GARBAGE.
> 
> *blah blah blah...*
> 
> 
> *and... one night, at band camp...*
> 
> *Tell you what - once I was salting a nonunion shop - and the ENTIRE COMPANY was slugs and nobody had a clue!!! This is now, of course, to be taken as gospel because it has been MY experience... right?*
> 
> 
> How could a man who is making a package of $75 per hour possibly think it's right to stop working at 2:45, knowing that he is paid until 3:30? How could he think it's ok to take 15 minutes extra on break, 20 minutes extra on lunch, and then go get lost for 30 minutes while he is "going to the bathroom"? How could a man think it's ok to wire up lights slowly for $75 per hour because he doesn't want to start a new task?
> 
> *The better question is, how can someone get away with this UNLESS... the FOREMAN on this shop-rocket jobsite was sleeping?*
> 
> *HMMMMM?*
> 
> The funny thing is how LGLS defends this, I worked in NYC, I worked next to local 3 members, I was DISGUSTED.


*But not disgusted with the paycheck, huh?*


----------



## paul d.

lawnguy, do you actually, really, no b.s., WORK ??????? just wonderin' ...:whistling2:


----------



## LGLS

paul d. said:


> lawnguy, do you actually, really, no b.s., WORK ??????? just wonderin' ...:whistling2:


Yes Paul... I work. Supervision. General Foreman on a Transit job.

W/O gping into details, it's $4500.00 a week clear.


----------



## user4818

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Yes Paul... I work. Supervision. General Foreman on a Transit job.
> 
> W/O gping into details, it's $4500.00 a week clear.


Do you feel like a big guy now bragging about how much you make?


----------



## Bob Badger

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Yes Paul... I work. Supervision. General Foreman on a Transit job.
> 
> W/O gping into details, it's $4500.00 a week clear.


Do you deserve that rate of pay or could you be replaced with a mannequin without anyone noticing?


----------



## user4818

Bob Badger said:


> Do you deserve that rate of pay or could you be replaced with a mannequin without anyone noticing?


I'd like the details on how you can take home $112.50 an hour.


----------



## oldman

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Yes Paul... I work. Supervision. General Foreman on a Transit job.
> 
> W/O gping into details, it's $4500.00 a week clear.


ironically, if a 363 company has their way, you're current company may follow the other 16 you've worked at...


----------



## 480sparky

Peter D said:


> Do you feel like a big guy now bragging about how much you make?


Shoot. I make $7500 a week selling knives to rats so they can stab their co-workers in the backs.


----------



## miller_elex

480sparky said:


> Shoot. I make $7500 a week selling knives to rats so they can stab their co-workers in the backs.


Those knives had to be made in China to make a margin like that!!! :thumbsup:


----------



## 480sparky

miller_elex said:


> Those knives had to be made in China to make a margin like that!!! :thumbsup:


 
I just buy worn out screwdrivers from Peter D and grind them down.


----------



## PhatElvis

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Yes Paul... I work. Supervision. General Foreman on a Transit job.
> 
> W/O gping into details, it's $4500.00 a week clear.


Wow, so I guess when you said you were in your 80s, retired, and living off the income from your rentals you were just blowing smoke?

You are one of those guys who has a good answer ready for any occasion. 

Can I get the blue cool-aid next time, the red one getting old.


----------



## al13nw4r3LC76

nice avatar 480.... lmao


----------



## LGLS

Peter D said:


> Do you feel like a big guy now bragging about how much you make?


Not really - just having a job is bragging these days, if you read these boards. But if it makes you feel any better - the hours really do suck.


----------



## LGLS

Peter D said:


> I'd like the details on how you can take home $112.50 an hour.


Why are you dividing by 40?


----------



## LGLS

PhatElvis said:


> Wow, so I guess when you said _you *were in your 80s,*_ retired, and living off the income from your rentals you were just blowing smoke?
> 
> *I said this when?*
> 
> You are one of those guys who has a good answer ready for any occasion.
> 
> Can I get the blue cool-aid next time, the red one getting old.


*Tell you what Elvis - *
*There are no apprentices on this job.*
*The typical j-man earns :*

*49.00*
*X 1.5 (night work)*
*x 35 hours*
*$2572.50*

*Now... we work an additional 2 hours nightly. That's 3,307.50.*

*Journeymen electricians, even when compounding rates such as overtime, high time, hazard pay, do not HAVE to be compensated any more than 2x their normal rate. But not so for foremen, who although are journeymen electricians, also get forman pay and that's based on a minimum 4.50 hour to hold the ticket and then more depending on the size of the crew being supervised.*

*Now you have to tell me - if you have a man running a crew of 30, how much more than that highest paid journeyman are you going to pay the guy running the whole shebang? 100 bucks a week? 200 bucks a week?*

*I'd really like to know how cheap you are...*

*Maybe I already do.*


----------



## LJSMITH1

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> *Tell you what Elvis - *
> *There are no apprentices on this job.*
> *The typical j-man earns :*
> 
> *49.00*
> *X 1.5 (night work)*
> *x 35 hours*
> *$2572.50*
> 
> *Now... we work an additional 2 hours nightly. That's 3,307.50.*
> 
> *Journeymen electricians, even when compounding rates such as overtime, high time, hazard pay, do not HAVE to be compensated any more than 2x their normal rate. But not so for foremen, who although are journeymen electricians, also get forman pay and that's based on a minimum 4.50 hour to hold the ticket and then more depending on the size of the crew being supervised.*
> 
> *Now you have to tell me - if you have a man running a crew of 30, how much more than that highest paid journeyman are you going to pay the guy running the whole shebang? 100 bucks a week? 200 bucks a week?*
> 
> *I'd really like to know how cheap you are...*
> 
> *Maybe I already do.*


 
How many weeks a year do you actually earn $4500 a week?


----------



## user5941

480sparky said:


> Shoot. I make $7500 a week selling knives to rats so they can stab their co-workers in the backs.


 do you sell cheese cutting knives also


----------



## user4818

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Why are you dividing by 40?


Because you didn't provide any other information so I assumed a 40 hour work week.


----------



## william1978

480sparky said:


> Shoot. I make $7500 a week selling knives to rats so they can stab their co-workers in the backs.


 :thumbup::laughing:


----------



## user5941

Peter D said:


> Because you didn't provide any other information so I assumed a 40 hour work week.


 better to ask than assume


----------



## user4818

rewire said:


> better to ask than assume


Yeah, my bad for assuming the national standard of a 40 hour work week.


----------



## oldman

Peter D said:


> Yeah, my bad for assuming the national standard of a 40 hour work week.


especially when NYC's standard is only 35


----------



## user4818

oldman said:


> especially when NYC's standard is only 35


And I'm sure that has absolutely nothing to do with union influence, right?


----------



## oldman

Peter D said:


> And I'm sure that has absolutely nothing to do with union influence, right?


nah...NYC is just that kind of a town...7-2:30 and the place just shuts down....


----------



## user4818

oldman said:


> nah...NYC is just that kind of a town...7-2:30 and the place just shuts down....


Even the "rat" shops?


----------



## Bob Badger

Peter D said:


> And I'm sure that has absolutely nothing to do with union influence, right?


Oh no, and the union influence never costs them jobs either. :no:

We wired most of a sewage treatment system on trailers here in MA, made a ton of money then the trailers where dragged to NYC to be basically 'plugged in' by NYC union electricians.


----------



## oldman

Bob Badger said:


> Oh no, and the union influence never costs them jobs either. :no:
> 
> We wired most of a sewage treatment system on trailers here in MA, made a ton of money then the trailers where dragged to NYC to be basically 'plugged in' by NYC union electricians.


don't feel bad...i'm sure they made good money on change orders to fix your sub-par installation...


----------



## user5941

oldman said:


> don't feel bad...i'm sure they made good money on change orders to fix your sub-par installation...


 Its called cleaning up RAT droppings.


----------



## Bob Badger

oldman said:


> don't feel bad...i'm sure they made good money on change orders to fix your sub-par installation...


Yeah, what every makes you feel like better. :thumbup1:


----------



## Bob Badger

rewire said:


> Its called cleaning up RAT droppings.



Oh I get it, rewire made another rat refrance, how original. We never know what to expect next with such a sharp wit like rewire around. :laughing:


----------



## user5941

Bob Badger said:


> Oh I get it, rewire made another rat refrance, how original. We never know what to expect next with such a sharp wit like rewire around. :laughing:


 actually I made a RAT reference


----------



## PhatElvis

That is not uncommon at all, a lot of big box stores have prefabbed gear rooms or walls that you buy as part of the owner's mandated suppliers list. Best buy, Office Max, Bed Bath and Beyond, Pets Mart, ect ect all do it. Its a box with 95% of the gear mounted wired, and even BMS prewired in and you as a contractor get to buy it, set it and run the service and home runs to it and thats about it. They even come with pre filled out panel schedules.

These boxes or walls are made by non-union fab shops, either in the South or Mexico. The owners are getting savy to ways ot save money and these gear packages are one way to do that. I have done quite a few of these installs and their work is first class and there is nothing that needs cleaning up.

Add in a owners lighting package with a reloc system and you are left with the service, receptacles and conduit drops for the data/comm and you might get to install the owners power poles or walker duct.


----------



## oldman

I was being phecesous (sp?).


----------



## 480sparky

oldman said:


> I was being phecesous (sp?).


Facetious.


----------



## oldman

Thanks. See there I go doing it again


----------



## John Valdes

EDM said:


> Just a few months ago when I was forced to go picket I was at the entrance of a job site watching the guys walk in front of the trucks trying to get in. These union guys were walking as slow as possible to slow down the men from going to work to make a living and put food on their table, this caused traffic in the street that backed up other people trying to go to work, school buses, emergency vehicles, etc. And then when a truck with some type of electrical name on the side tried to get in it got even worse, they would sit there for over 5 minutes as the same thugs walked as slow as possible in front of the truck and then immediately turned around to walk back. All the while being screamed at, "SCAB!" "RAT!" "F*CK YOU, YOU PIECE OF SH*T!". Guys walking on the sides of the car staring in with looks of death, others actually making death threats. And then when this guy stuck in a crowd of 100 angry men hits his gas a little or toots his horn to try and finally get thru and stop the traffic that the back of his truck is causing on the street, EVERYONE starts screaming and banging on his hood.


Wow. Have things changed that much? When I worked union many years ago, no one crossed a picket line. No one.
If one craft was picketing, all the others stood with that craft and did not go onto the job site. It was a day or two off at the most, without pay. No one complained. It was part of being a union member. 
If its like you say, I would never consider being part of the union you belong to.
Just curious. What would your company do if you went across the line and showed up for work? Would they be there to work, would there be other people showing up to work?

oldman. Get Firefox. It has a spell checker......lol


----------



## miller_elex

John Valdes said:


> When I worked union many years ago, no one crossed a picket line. No one.
> If one craft was picketing, all the others stood with that craft and did not go onto the job site.


Depends on the picket. Glaziers had an 'informational' picket that was only from 6:30am to 7:00am, then they left until lunch. Wierd. I just came in at 7:01. I don't get these half-assed pickets. But things were different back in the day. My folks were not union at all, but would never cross a line, and anyone who did that they knew, that person's name was mud forever, end of story. 

To that asshole in the van, trying to get on the job to make money to 'feed his family,' if there was no union at all, he would be scraping minimum wage. Thanks to unions there is a minimum wage at all. 

Even in the Bossman's South, at least the federal minimum wage keeps people from busting their hump all day for $4 an hour down there. Funny, the less you make, the harder the work, the nastier the slave-driver. How much does a good foreman make in the deep south? Factor in all the time he spends reading plans at home to stay on the Bossman's good side. Include all the unpaid stops to put job materials in the back of his diesel big-rig.


----------



## John Valdes

In my day a picket was a picket. Never heard of an "informational picket". I have only been involved in three pickets in 15 years of union work. One at Seaboard Coast Line RR. And two more construction sites out of 349 Miami. Each time it was another craft. Never an IBEW picket.

If I saw a sign I just turned around and went home. We usually had some warning, but it was always a good idea to show up and make sure it was still active. It was never held against anyone that I know of. Most all the supers were once in the same local or as in the RR. the supers had their own union. I can't remember if they supported the picket lines though.
You are right about the ones that crossed. There was a man at the RR. that never spoke to anyone and no one spoke to him. I asked why one day and it was because he crossed many many years ago.


----------



## PhatElvis

So did you stop watching TV when the writers went on strike?


----------



## user5941

PhatElvis said:


> So did you stop watching TV when the writers went on strike?


 whats a TV and why do you watch it?


----------



## RIVETER

Brian, there are great workers on both sides of the union/non union spectrum. If you are the greatest of the greatest, then more power to you. If you are being paid what you think you are worth, I am honestly glad. But the majority of the workforce, whether in the electrical field, or, in any field, have to constantly rely on their company to NOTICE that they are worthwhile...and usually, they don't.
AND, they have the RIGHT to ask for more.


----------



## Bob Badger

RIVETER said:


> Brian, there are great workers on both sides of the union/non union spectrum. If you are the greatest of the greatest, then more power to you. If you are being paid what you think you are worth, I am honestly glad. But the majority of the workforce, whether in the electrical field, or, in any field, have to constantly rely on their company to NOTICE that they are worthwhile...and usually, they don't.
> AND, they have the RIGHT to ask for more.


I am not in a union and have never had anyone deny me my right to ask for more.

I have had unions get in the way of my earning my living while they tried to extort more pay or bennies.


----------



## PhatElvis

rewire said:


> whats a TV and why do you watch it?


I think it was like a computer with a very small keyboard and full length Youtubue vids were on every website.


----------



## PhatElvis

*bad coffee*



RIVETER said:


> ....But the majority of the workforce, whether in the electrical field, or, in any field, have to constantly rely on their company to NOTICE that they are worthwhile...and usually, they don't.
> AND, they have the RIGHT to ask for more.


I am just amazed me how folks like you actually believe this crap. As an employer I pay VERY close attention to my workforce, I know who the team players are, who the performers are, and who the slacker are too.

You can not build up a business without building up your workforce. If you choose to ignore this axiom, your good labor will go work for somebody who does understand how it works.

The problem with the union is they want to act like all electricians are created equal when EVERYONE knows this is not true. Yes everyone has the right to ask for more, but when you have to treat every electrician that walks through your front door as top performer and give them top wages it hampers your ability to pay the real performers. Add to this you have no choice of who takes the call and you wasted tons of time sorting through the guys that give IBEW a bad name.

As near as I can tell the union does more to protect the average and below average man, than it does to reward the those who are far above average. If Bob Badger walks it like he talks it, then he is damn smart to work for a non-union shop and probably makes a LOT more than I can pay my top performers.


----------



## BryanMD

PhatElvis said:


> As near as I can tell *the union does more to protect the average* and below average man, than it does to reward the those who are far above average.


Most people are far closer to the average (however that may be defined) than they would ever want to admit to.

Those who are far above average (however that may be defined) will fend for themselves just fine with most leaving the hourly paid wage jobs behind them.


----------



## PhatElvis

When I say "average" its not a good thing. When the work slows down, I don't make work for the "average" electrician, nor do they get perks, or bonuses.

Being average in any profession will not get you noticed or further your careers, unless you work for the government, or are in a trade union.


----------



## traveler

Problem is....to be "above average" you have to:

Work through lunch
claim no overtime
continually tell the boss how handsome he is
Etc.

~Joe


----------



## 480sparky

traveler said:


> Problem is....to be "above average" you have to:
> 
> Work through lunch
> claim no overtime
> continually tell the boss how handsome he is
> Etc.
> 
> ~Joe


But what about kissing the bosses' ass or sucking his dîck?


----------



## traveler

Bob Badger said:


> I am not in a union and have never had anyone deny me my right to ask for more.
> 
> I have had unions get in the way of my earning my living while they tried to extort more pay or bennies.


you're a business owner. The guy's you hire are earning YOUR way, and for that, they get a small slivver piece of the pie.

We simply beleieve, that if we're gonna make you rich, then we deserve to live a good life too!

SOMEDAY....the government will come back to us, and we will fix the injustice going on now.

Damn illegals need to go home! And those who hire them need to go to prison!

~Joe


----------



## traveler

480sparky said:


> But what about kissing the bosses' ass or sucking his dîck?


If that works for you, ok.

For me, I'll do the job, and take my pay. It's strictly business. We go over 8 hours, it's time and a half.

~Joe


----------



## 480sparky

traveler said:


> If that works for you, ok.
> 
> For me, I'll do the job, and take my pay. It's strictly business. We go over 8 hours, it's time and a half.
> 
> ~Joe


I wouldn't know if it works or not. Never done it, never felt the need to either. Is it because I'm a rat that you assume I do?

I go to work, put in x hours of labor for x hours pay, and go home alive at the end of the day.


----------



## PhatElvis

traveler said:


> problem is....to be "above average" you have to:
> 
> Work through lunch
> claim no overtime
> continually tell the boss how handsome he is
> etc.
> 
> ~joe


 bull sh1t

Lunch is mandatory NO EXCEPTIONS its the law.
You work the OT, I pay it...NO EXCEPTIONS its the law.
A55 kissers don't last long if they cant perform;if they do perform they can be complete jerks for all I care. In fact I have several first class a-holes working for me right now, but I keep my mouth shut because they are well above average.


----------



## Shado

Traveler...just so you know....I am pretty sure Bob Badger is an employee.
Hince his reason for being pissed about unions getting in his way of earning $$$ to provide for his family.


That is one of the reasons we Rats don't quite support the unions....

*NOBODY!!!* comes between me and my bank account for my family. 

Cross a line to go to work...you betcha sweet arse I will (and did a few different times in the 80's)!!! My family's income is way more important than a union strike line.
I do understand that while striking, you guys are trying to better your family's life also...but I am not supporting your families....only mine.


----------



## BryanMD

PhatElvis said:


> When I say "average" its not a good thing. When the work slows down, I don't make work for the "average" electrician, nor do they get perks, or bonuses.


that reality is a very large part of the idea behind the union and today separating primary benefits (like health and pension) from employment.

splash some of that gravy on my biscuits when it's flowing...
I'll show up and work steady and when it isn't I'll go fishing.
But some guys just can't manage that for themselves.

I'd much rather work 50hrs x 40 weeks than 40hrs x 50 weeks and even throw in some 60 hr weeks too. 12-20 weeks off a year is very appealing.

Regular shops have a real hard time with independent minded employees and especially ones who can fend for themselves during those 12-20 weeks off without a paycheck. "Da Boss Man" doesn't have any leverage.


----------



## PhatElvis

*pride*



BryanMD said:


> Regular shops have a real hard time with independent minded employees and especially ones who can fend for themselves during those 12-20 weeks off without a paycheck. "Da Boss Man" doesn't have any leverage.


I have a problem with attitude, especially lots of it and nothing to back it up. I cant tell you how many times some JIW takes a call then proceeds to tell me how he may not be able to walk on water but if he tries real hard, he can skim across the top and how he personally built every major power house in the country and all his personal accomplishments, only to hang 40' of 4 inch EMT in one day, or spends 3 days laying out a electric room, or just drags up after the first week when he realizes I am actually paying attention and no he cant have that rabbit.

This is not a one size fits all business. Not all EC are predatory or what IBEW tells you we are, and not all union men are slugs. Some of both of us belong to the big boy club, we both bring something to the table and make money. If you can figure out a way to get the right contractors to the right labor, we could own all the work. Unfortunately my inside agreement has multiple articles dedicated to preventing that from happening. 

If you got an idea, lets here it, I am all ears. I know how to keep good people, I just have HELL finding them and sorting through the rest.


----------



## Bob Badger

Bob Badger said:


> I am not in a union and have never had anyone deny me my right to ask for more.
> 
> I have had unions get in the way of my earning my living while they tried to extort more pay or bennies.





traveler said:


> you're a business owner.


That's news to me, I thought I was and always have been an hourly employee. :laughing:


----------



## BryanMD

PhatElvis said:


> I have a problem with attitude, especially lots of it and nothing to back it up. I cant tell you how many times some JIW takes a call then proceeds to tell me how he may not be able to walk on water...
> 
> This is not a one size fits all business....
> 
> If you got an idea, lets here it, I am all ears. I know how to keep good people, I just have HELL finding them and sorting through the rest.


I hear you loud and clear and btw I'm not IBEW. 

I didn't mean to imply that I have any magic wand ideas of how to solve the issues. But the issues sure are common as I've seen them personally all over the country which make me think that something VERY fundamental got whacked out of alignment.

Perceptions and expectations and compensations have to align again.


----------



## user5941

Shado said:


> Traveler...just so you know....I am pretty sure Bob Badger is an employee.
> Hince his reason for being pissed about unions getting in his way of earning $$$ to provide for his family.
> 
> 
> That is one of the reasons we Rats don't quite support the unions....
> 
> *NOBODY!!!* comes between me and my bank account for my family.
> 
> Cross a line to go to work...you betcha sweet arse I will (and did a few different times in the 80's)!!! My family's income is way more important than a union strike line.
> I do understand that while striking, you guys are trying to better your family's life also...but I am not supporting your families....only mine.


 What you dont seem to realize is that the guys on the line are there not just for their family but yours also.Its a concept as old as the Bible take a stick and break it across your knee then take the two pieces together and try and break them.


----------



## B4T

rewire said:


> What you dont seem to realize is that the guys on the line are there not just for their family but yours also.Its a concept as old as the Bible take a stick and break it across your knee then take the two pieces together and try and break them.


 yeah right.. REWIRE where do you get this info... :no:

I can watch out for my family just fine without the UNION's help


----------



## 480sparky

Bob Badger said:


> That's news to me, I thought I was and always have been an hourly employee. :laughing:


You forget, Bob. You're a rat! :laughing::laughing:


----------



## user5941

Black4Truck said:


> yeah right.. REWIRE where do you get this info... :no:


 could you be a little more specific


> I can watch out for my family just fine without the UNION's help


 Do you make close to union wages ,do you have the same health care, the same retirement,do you get paid holidays and vacation, do you have a training program and continuing education,do you have weekly safety meetings and safety training do you have regular raises?


----------



## Bob Badger

rewire said:


> Do you make close to union wages


Yes



> do you have the same health care


Can't say, don't know what you get, but I have good health dental and eye care.




> , the same retirement,


Can't say, don't know what you get but I get money kicked into 401 K by my employer.




> do you get paid holidays


11




> and vacation,


Yes, paid.



> do you have a training program


State certified instructor for apprentices, OSHA certified company safety officer that handles PPE and safety training.



> continuing education,



Yes paid for, my required CEUs, this year also IR camera training and NACEP training




> do you have weekly safety meetings


Weekly mandatory 'tool box talks' 





> safety training


Yes, confined space, bio-hazard, fall protection, electrical safety, OSHA 10 etc.




> do you have regular raises?


Of course.


----------



## PhatElvis

Rewire-

1) Are you a contractor?
2) Have you read every word of your inside agreement?
3) Have you obtained and read every word of all documents referenced in your inside agreement?
4) Are you a member of NECA?
5) Are your gross sales over $50k year?


----------



## user5941

Bob Badger said:


> Yes
> 
> 
> 
> Can't say, don't know what you get, but I have good health dental and eye care.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can't say, don't know what you get but I get money kicked into 401 K by my employer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 11
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, paid.
> 
> 
> 
> State certified instructor for apprentices, OSHA certified company safety officer that handles PPE and safety training.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes paid for, my required CEUs, this year also IR camera training and NACEP training
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Weekly mandatory 'tool box talks'
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, confined space, bio-hazard, fall protection, electrical safety, OSHA 10 etc.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of course.


 was all this in place before you hired on?


----------



## Bob Badger

rewire said:


> was all this in place before you hired on?


Yes.


And I get a company truck to bring home, other guys get vehicle allowances.


----------



## oldman

PhatElvis - you are pissing into the wind...in one post rewire has just become a union contractor and life is great....in another, he's just let everyone go, shut his office down, and is now working by himself out of his home...who knows what the truth is....

Bob- then obviously you should thank the unions for getting you all that good stuff...


----------



## B4T

oldman said:


> Bob- then obviously you should thank the unions for getting you all that good stuff...


 
:laughing: :thumbup:


----------



## user5941

Bob Badger said:


> Yes.
> 
> 
> And I get a company truck to bring home, other guys get vehicle allowances.


 Why do you think is your companys motivation to provide these perks


----------



## captkirk

How much would a Union contractor charge for a 200 amp resi service upgrade..? not trying to make any points here just curious.


----------



## user5941

PhatElvis said:


> Rewire-
> 
> 1) Are you a contractor?
> 2) Have you read every word of your inside agreement?
> 3) Have you obtained and read every word of all documents referenced in your inside agreement?
> 4) Are you a member of NECA?
> 5) Are your gross sales over $50k year?


1) Yes
2) Yes
3) Yes
4) no
5)400K


----------



## Bob Badger

oldman said:


> Bob- then obviously you should thank the unions for getting you all that good stuff...


Yeah, the unions have some to do with it. The company is not interested in being taken over by the unions so they need to keep the guys happy. But if the company went union I would find another open shop. 

We can also thank the GCs we work for that demand safely operated companies.

We can also thank the insurance carriers that charge more for unsafe companies.

We can also thank ourselves for not settling for a company that does not provide those things.


----------



## oldman

captkirk said:


> How much would a Union contractor charge for a 200 amp resi service upgrade..? not trying to make any points here just curious.


actually, in NJ not anymore than a decent non-union shop...don't forget NJ has the "B" rate...which last I checked in my area was around $28/hr total package....that was a couple of years ago though...

but still even at $35/hr total package, it's not out of line....


----------



## Bob Badger

rewire said:


> Why do you think is your companys motivation to provide these perks


Having top notch guys to do the big jobs that the union can't keep. :laughing:

And those same big jobs require great safety records.


----------



## user5941

Bob Badger said:


> Yeah, the unions have some to do with it. The company is not interested in being taken over by the unions so they need to keep the guys happy. But if the company went union I would find another open shop.
> 
> We can also thank the GCs we work for that demand safely operated companies.
> 
> We can also thank the insurance carriers that charge more for unsafe companies.
> 
> We can also thank ourselves for not settling for a company that does not provide those things.


 If all shops were like this then I could truly say we no longer need unions


----------



## oldman

Bob Badger said:


> Yeah, the unions have some to do with it. The company is not interested in being taken over by the unions so they need to keep the guys happy. But if the company went union I would find another open shop.
> 
> We can also thank the GCs we work for that demand safely operated companies.
> 
> We can also thank the insurance carriers that charge more for unsafe companies.
> 
> We can also thank ourselves for not settling for a company that does not provide those things.


bob, 

what guys fail to realize is that years ago, before the government became so involved in our lives, the unions were needed to get all those things for the working man...

but these days, those things are here to stay...the government will make sure of it..and the unions need to change their focus...


----------



## user5941

oldman said:


> PhatElvis - you are pissing into the wind...in one post rewire has just become a union contractor and life is great....in another, he's just let everyone go, shut his office down, and is now working by himself out of his home...who knows what the truth is....
> 
> Bob- then obviously you should thank the unions for getting you all that good stuff...


 could be both are true... you never know :whistling2:


----------



## user5941

oldman said:


> bob,
> 
> what guys fail to realize is that years ago, before the government became so involved in our lives, the unions were needed to get all those things for the working man...
> 
> but these days, those things are here to stay...the government will make sure of it..and the unions need to change their focus...


 remember the government is whoever is in charge Kit Bond (R)
has introduced in the past legislation to replace overtime pay with comp time. This would be the first step in eliminating the 40 hour week.


----------



## captkirk

40 hours a week is not a bad week.....And FWIW Ive worked for plenty of non union contractors that took good care of us. Health, 401, paid sick and holidays, bonuses (6000 before taxes) fishing trip, Atlantic City trip and a week pay for Christmas, and good wages. I really think some of you Union guys are a little brain washed.. Oh and the two guys that I worked for also paid for my school. There are definatly good guys out there, and my goal is to treat my employees the same..


----------



## Bob Badger

oldman said:


> bob,
> 
> what guys fail to realize is that years ago, before the government became so involved in our lives, the unions were needed to get all those things for the working man...



I do not fail to realize that, there is a lot of truth to that.

But a lot of union men seem to forget back then the workers where truly oppressed in ways we can not even imagine. They lived in areas of town owned by the company, in homes they rented from the company, they bought food and necessities from stores owned by the company and if they got out of line the company would hire thugs to 'straighten them out' So back then striking for change had to be done. Now the fight has become for one more day off or some other insignificant issue that should be handled one on one. 

Perfect example in my area where local Police picketing and causing a lot of trouble because the state rules changed allowing private flagmen on streets instead of requiring cops. IMO they made themselves look like fools.

http://multimedia.boston.com/m/21133623/massachusetts-police-officers-protest-civilian-flaggers.htm


----------



## oldman

you said what i meant...


----------



## captkirk

Bob Badger said:


> I do not fail to realize that, there is a lot of truth to that.
> 
> But a lot of union men seem to forget back then the workers where truly oppressed in ways we can not even imagine. They lived in areas of town owned by the company, in homes they rented from the company, they bought food and necessities from stores owned by the company and if they got out of line the company would hire thugs to 'straighten them out' So back then striking for change had to be done. Now the fight has become for one more day off or some other insignificant issue that should be handled one on one.
> 
> Perfect example in my area where local Police picketing and causing a lot of trouble because the state rules changed allowing private flagmen on streets instead of requiring cops. IMO they made themselves look like fools.
> 
> http://multimedia.boston.com/m/21133623/massachusetts-police-officers-protest-civilian-flaggers.htm


Thats funny because all Ive been reading is how greedy and evil the business owners are and how they mistreat the common man. Most cops already make a great salary after 5 years so why do townships need to pay top dollar to a cop (which is on OT for sure) for a job that can be done by a crossing guard..? Who is the greedy one here..?


----------



## B4T

Those cops looked more like thugs than "professional" police officers and should of been arrested for blocking traffic


----------



## user5941

Bob Badger said:


> I do not fail to realize that, there is a lot of truth to that.
> 
> But a lot of union men seem to forget back then the workers where truly oppressed in ways we can not even imagine. They lived in areas of town owned by the company, in homes they rented from the company, they bought food and necessities from stores owned by the company and if they got out of line the company would hire thugs to 'straighten them out' So back then striking for change had to be done. Now the fight has become for one more day off or some other insignificant issue that should be handled one on one.
> 
> Perfect example in my area where local Police picketing and causing a lot of trouble because the state rules changed allowing private flagmen on streets instead of requiring cops. IMO they made themselves look like fools.
> 
> http://multimedia.boston.com/m/21133623/massachusetts-police-officers-protest-civilian-flaggers.htm


 and alot of non union guys don't believe that if the unions were gone things would go back to the way they were.


----------



## captkirk

I would have been in the idiots face.....Mass cops are among the highest paid in the nation. What a bunch of douche bags....Did you hear the one guy "I got a 9 month old at home." Ugh well maybe the constuction worker does too..... Maybe the citys dont have the money to pay for a job that a crossing guard can do... Dont police have better and more important things to do anyway...?


----------



## Bob Badger

rewire said:


> and alot of non union guys don't believe that if the unions were gone things would go back to the way they were.


Must suck to live in fear all the time.


----------



## user5941

Bob Badger said:


> Must suck to live in fear all the time.


 fear accompanies the possibility of death, calm shepards its certainty


----------



## PhatElvis

I remember not to long ago IBEW had something like 10% market share in Dallas and had a strike. The local paper had a story in it with a headline, "What happens when you go on strike and nobody notices?"


----------



## user5941

PhatElvis said:


> I remember not to long ago IBEW had something like 10% market share in Dallas and had a strike. The local paper had a story in it with a headline, "What happens when you go on strike and nobody notices?"


 were do you come up with this stuff a google search produces zip


----------



## Shado

rewire said:


> What you dont seem to realize is that the guys on the line are there not just for their family but yours also..


No...this I understand also. Negotiating higher wages helps the non union wages increase. 
If you have followed any of my post in other threads, you will have seen that I am not necessarily absolute anti union.
I just have issues with some policies. 

Wages, bene's, schooling, safety....are great offerings. 
But, I am not much of a follower (although I am quite capable of doing a kick ass job at it if needed) 
I tend to lead....show me what you want, leave me alone and let me get it done....if I don't know how to do it, teach me, then leave me alone and let me get it done and make the boss money.

Union propaganda is always about the $$, benes, etc....but very limited openings. You have to agree that there is a HUGE fault with some of the policies, or else EC's, and the rest of the working men would be knocking the doors down trying to get in. This is not happening....there must be a reason for it....present economy not included. 

You have read here numerous times about union applicants stressed out over interviews, scores,etc....WTF??? The union is a trade school, not Yale, Harvard, etc...we are Blue collar workers.

Once in....the term indentured servant??? How degrading. I have worked for several companies in the past that hired on ex cubs, because the cubs were fed up being treated like gophers, trash, etc. in the union and not getting hands on experience. Too bad, a majority of them turned out to be great electricians.

Brotherhood? Why the segregation with books? Simply make it 1st come 1st available. 

Limit my ability to make my job easier because I buy tools and others don't want too? Psshhhh...

There are alot more reasons like this for anti union issues from Rats....

If the union truely wants to be a brotherhood of electrical workers.....alot of the crap policies must change....and give the non union crowd real reasons, opportunities, to join.


----------



## user5941

Shado said:


> No...this I understand also. Negotiating higher wages helps the non union wages increase.
> If you have followed any of my post in other threads, you will have seen that I am not necessarily absolute anti union.
> I just have issues with some policies.


Thats understandable


> Wages, bene's, schooling, safety....are great offerings.


we want these for all


> But, I am not much of a follower (although I am quite capable of doing a kick ass job at it if needed)
> I tend to lead....show me what you want, leave me alone and let me get it done....if I don't know how to do it, teach me, then leave me alone and let me get it done and make the boss money.


 leaders are needed we always need good foremen and general foremen and they are compensated for their ability to lead


> Union propaganda is always about the $$, benes, etc....but very limited openings. You have to agree that there is a HUGE fault with some of the policies, or else EC's, and the rest of the working men would be knocking the doors down trying to get in. This is not happening....there must be a reason for it....present economy not included.


Many employers want to stay in the position of power,the less I pay the more profit for me


> You have read here numerous times about union applicants stressed out over interviews, scores,etc....WTF??? The union is a trade school, not Yale, Harvard, etc...we are Blue collar workers.


 beats the hell out of working at McDonalds


> Once in....the term indentured servant??? How degrading.


 it is what they are but we call them cubs.


> I have worked for several companies in the past that hired on ex cubs, because the cubs were fed up being treated like gophers, trash, etc. in the union and not getting hands on experience. Too bad, a majority of them turned out to be great electricians.


 when people quit they are never at fault, I have seen few quitters become great electricians of course you may define great differently


> Brotherhood? Why the segregation with books? Simply make it 1st come 1st available.


 each local has a book for the members of that local,why should members of that local NOTget first shot at work in thier local?


> Limit my ability to make my job easier because I buy tools and others don't want too? Psshhhh...


so you are OK with someone getting fired because he can't buy a tool the boss wont buy


> There are alot more reasons like this for anti union issues from Rats....


 please list them so i can address them


> If the union truely wants to be a brotherhood of electrical workers.....alot of the crap policies must change....and give the non union crowd real reasons, opportunities, to join.


what crap policies?


----------



## 480sparky

rewire said:


> leaders are needed we always need good foremen and general foremen and they are compensated for their ability to lead


And this does truly exist in the non-union cosmos.



rewire said:


> Many employers want to stay in the position of power,the less I pay the more profit for me


Silly me, but isn't that what you've been trying to beat into our heads......... that this attitude only exists in _non-union_ shops?



rewire said:


> it is what they are but we call them cubs.


What _you_ call them is irrelevant. It's what they *ARE* that matters.



rewire said:


> when people quit they are never at fault, I have seen few quitters become great electricians


I guess it's impossible for me to become a great electrician, then, because I have quit jobs in the past.



rewire said:


> of course you may define great


Your definition of great is 'belongs to the union'.



rewire said:


> so you are OK with someone getting fired because he can't buy a tool the boss wont buy


I have an issue with electricans becoming stagnant in their ability to work because they know there is a tool or a product that can greatly increase thier productivity (ergo, _profitability_), but 'the rules' say they cannot have it/them.



rewire said:


> please list them so i can address them


Haven't you been reading *any* of the responses to this thread?


----------



## user5941

480sparky said:


> Your definition of great is 'belongs to the union'
> 
> 
> Haven't you been reading *any* of the responses to this thread?


 and in other post you complained I was making assumptions about you,
kettle pot,pot kettle


----------



## traveler

Shado said:


> No...this I understand also. Negotiating higher wages helps the non union wages increase.
> If you have followed any of my post in other threads, you will have seen that I am not necessarily absolute anti union.
> I just have issues with some policies.
> 
> Wages, bene's, schooling, safety....are great offerings.
> But, I am not much of a follower (although I am quite capable of doing a kick ass job at it if needed)
> I tend to lead....show me what you want, leave me alone and let me get it done....if I don't know how to do it, teach me, then leave me alone and let me get it done and make the boss money.
> 
> I've never had "the union" come on the job and tell me how to do the work.
> 
> Union propaganda is always about the $$, benes, etc....but very limited openings. You have to agree that there is a HUGE fault with some of the policies, or else EC's, and the rest of the working men would be knocking the doors down trying to get in. This is not happening....there must be a reason for it....present economy not included.
> 
> No limited openings. A man with a Journeyman's license may join the union. As for work, if the shops have a need for wiremen, then men get hired.
> 
> You have read here numerous times about union applicants stressed out over interviews, scores,etc....WTF??? The union is a trade school, not Yale, Harvard, etc...we are Blue collar workers.
> 
> this is true to a point. The union's position is that electrician's should be capable of doing math, and if you are going to invest alot of money and time training them, that they are serious about it. What is wrong with a trade school wanting to ensure that their investment is going to pan out?
> 
> Once in....the term indentured servant??? How degrading. I have worked for several companies in the past that hired on ex cubs, because the cubs were fed up being treated like gophers, trash, etc. in the union and not getting hands on experience. Too bad, a majority of them turned out to be great electricians.
> 
> Yep. I endured it for 5 years, and I hated it. Stupidity, and I agree with you 100% on that. Problem is, the apprenticeship is set up where they use monthly reports to track an apprentice's performance from month to month. Since this report has to be signed by a journeyman, the journeyman can use this, to hold it over your head.
> 
> 
> 
> Brotherhood? Why the segregation with books? Simply make it 1st come 1st available.
> 
> People who live locally, and put the money they earn back into _that _economy, not the one back home in another state, have the right to first dib's on the work.
> 
> Limit my ability to make my job easier because I buy tools and others don't want too? Psshhhh...
> 
> that's becasue experience has shown that once a few guys on the job start buying a particular tool, it seems to give an "out" to the owner....that he doesn't need to provide that tool. If Bob and Jim can go buy that tool, then Rick Tim and John can go by it as well. It is intended to make it so that it doesn't snowball into a JW having to provided his own benders, band saw....his own gang box.
> 
> There are alot more reasons like this for anti union issues from Rats....
> 
> Why do you keep referring to yourself with a deragatory term?
> 
> If the union truely wants to be a brotherhood of electrical workers.....alot of the crap policies must change....and give the non union crowd real reasons, opportunities, to join.


If protection from firing over raising a OSHA violation or safety issue isn't enough incentive.....if if having a VERY good benefits package, retirement, and wage package, isn't enough, *then don't join*.

~Joe


----------



## miller_elex

Shado said:


> If the union truely wants to be a brotherhood of electrical workers.....alot of the crap policies must change....and give the non union crowd real reasons, opportunities, to join.


The culture and how rules are enforced is different in every local. Just as non-union shops are different. Here with some shops when you sign on they give you a new drill and 200 bucks worth of bits and cutting tools, because it saves so much money that was spent on wasted time searching. In other locals that would be a no-no, because a man should not be expected to use his truck to haul around tools for the contractor. I am calling b.s. on the hardliners.

There is a local nearby, and it is well known here that when the contractors bid work in that local, they double/triple the estimate because of the culture in that local. The hands there are militant, and probably spend alot of time at home. Whatever works for them.

Here the local is over 80% shop men. The contractors know that if you go back to the hall, you will sit a long time, and nobody wants to sit that long, and people get pushed hard. I worked non-union, I know how people are treated, and a couple of the union shops I worked for here treat people like garbage, and folks take it, because the money is great and they don't want to sit at home forever.

What is the happy medium? What will bring good people in, encourage bad people to leave, give longevity, office and field hands are happy and thrive? The happy factor is choice. Giving choice means each man is in more control of his destiny, but don't eliminate all regulation. Choice gives rise to more competition in a positive way.

Hardliners will call me dirty names. I would rather be happy with $32 an hour than miserable at $40. But if this is done right, like our nation's constitution, why not have choice, and be happy at $42? Happy people are more productive, probably an extra 18%.

How do we get more choice without sacrificing future earnings? Right-to-work was a failure for the working man, that was going too far, but there has got to be a way. No need to re-invent the wheel, what do they do in other countries?


----------



## Shado

rewire said:


> employers want to stay in the position of power,the less I pay the more profit for me
> 
> And it sounds like the union thinks that Rat EC's bid at union scale and pockets the difference....not
> again....as I said....the policies don't give enough incentive for other EC's to join. There must be more to it than what you state.
> 
> beats the hell out of working at McDonalds
> 
> anything probably does....
> 
> it is what they are but we call them cubs.
> 
> that is an ironic statement.....still degrading.
> Slavery died out many moons ago. If they are an *apprentice*, then *THAT* is what they are, no matter what you may call them.
> 
> when people quit they are never at fault, I have seen few quitters become great electricians of course you may define great differently
> 
> never said anything about being at fault....they quit because they were treated as slaves (servants) shagging tools for JM, fetching coffee, handing tools to the JM, etc....you come on my jobs as a cub.....be ready...you are getting your hands dirty pulling, bending, etc....from the get go. The sooner you know how and what to do....the sooner you are productive for me.
> 
> each local has a book for the members of that local,why should members of that local NOTget first shot at work in thier local?
> 
> sooo...brotherhood is NOT about fairness, equality then.....ie: this is my hood and you are an immigrant, 2nd class
> 
> so you are OK with someone getting fired because he can't buy a tool the boss wont buy
> 
> in 25+ years non union....many different employers....have yet to have seen/known a person fired because he didn't buy a tool someone else bought. My tool purchses were due to the brand or whatever I preferred as opposed to what my employer would buy.
> Yep this included, benders, phones, ladders, etc.....again...freedom, my choice
> 
> what crap policies?
> 
> herein lies the problem...what non union see as crap.....union sees as acceptable.


As I have stated many times as have others....there are pro's and con's on both sides. It just seems to be a fact that the con's outweigh the pro's, hince market share loss. How can you address or explain that?


----------



## BryanMD

Shado said:


> ...hince market share loss. How can you address or explain that?


Because both sides are being played by the people farther up the food chain and most seem to have forgotten that they actually work for a living.

The problems most merit guys have with unions are the "how" issues not the "what" issues. 

Focus on the "what" issues (like WAGE RATES and training and benefits and safety and HOURS!) and the disagreements between the sides fall apart.

Focus on "how" to go about achieving those things and you fall right into the trap laid out for you.


----------



## user5941

Shado said:


> As I have stated many times as have others....there are pro's and con's on both sides. It just seems to be a fact that the con's outweigh the pro's, hince market share loss. How can you address or explain that?


 I think the drop in union membership is because of the good job unions have done in securing better working conditions for all. Kind of ironic.
We also have a large % of contractors that employ less than three people and pay well under union wage and have no benefits because of low bidding they cannot afford to.
In some markets you have a large union presence and in some you dont in those you dont wages are usually low.
unionizing three and four man shops is very difficult.


----------



## Shado

traveler said:


> I've never had "the union" come on the job and tell me how to do the work.
> 
> Are there not rules on how you utilize your help? Like I said...ex cubs shaggin, fetching, etc...
> 
> No limited openings. A man with a Journeyman's license may join the union. As for work, if the shops have a need for wiremen, then men get hired.
> 
> Yep....adn he would still be looked down upon since he never was a servant.
> 
> this is true to a point. The union's position is that electrician's should be capable of doing math, and if you are going to invest alot of money and time training them, that they are serious about it. What is wrong with a trade school wanting to ensure that their investment is going to pan out?
> 
> This statement sounds as though non union guys can't do math. Odd since we both do the same work.
> That position on union part is bogus.
> 
> People who live locally, and put the money they earn back into _that _economy, not the one back home in another state, have the right to first dib's on the work.
> 
> Wow...so travelers be bop in and out daily? Must really pay bookoo $$$ to afford to fly daily. I would think if someone came in from another economy, that they too would be spending in the local economy's hotels, restaurants, stores, gas stations, etc....
> 
> that's becasue experience has shown that once a few guys on the job start buying a particular tool, it seems to give an "out" to the owner....that he doesn't need to provide that tool. If Bob and Jim can go buy that tool, then Rick Tim and John can go by it as well. It is intended to make it so that it doesn't snowball into a JW having to provided his own benders, band saw....his own gang box.
> 
> So...my freedom of choice is a idea, dream or thing of the past in the union?
> 
> Why do you keep referring to yourself with a deragatory term?
> 
> It is used with endearment.....
> 
> If protection from firing over raising a OSHA violation or safety issue isn't enough incentive.....if having a VERY good benefits package, retirement, and wage package, isn't enough, *then don't join*.
> ~Joe




Pretty harsh there Joe, even from you. 
We humans want it all.


----------



## Shado

BryanMD said:


> Because both sides are being played by the people farther up the food chain and most seem to have forgotten that they actually work for a living.
> 
> The problems most merit guys have with unions are the "how" issues not the "what" issues.
> 
> Focus on the "what" issues (like WAGE RATES and training and benefits and safety and HOURS!) and the disagreements between the sides fall apart.
> 
> Focus on "how" to go about achieving those things and you fall right into the trap laid out for you.


Valid points sir.:thumbsup:


----------



## Shado

rewire said:


> I think the drop in union membership is because of the good job unions have done in securing better working conditions for all. Kind of ironic.
> We also have a large % of contractors that employ less than three people and pay well under union wage and have no benefits because of low bidding they cannot afford to.
> In some markets you have a large union presence and in some you dont in those you dont wages are usually low.
> unionizing three and four man shops is very difficult.


Agreed...yet as my statements point out....the incentives must not be enough to make a change either way. 

Would you agree to this?

I personally enjoy these debates, no matter how heated they may become. The more info put out here, the more educated we all become.


----------



## traveler

I think that if you are happy, then stay where you are.

Look at what the union offers. If you have a better deal, then the choice is obvious.

I took an Honorary Withdrawl from the union mainly because I couldn't afford to sit on my butt anymore. 14 months was long enough!

Crappy job now, but the pay is steady. FWIW the union will be dead within 10 years or so.

I felt the benefits and wages were outstanding....until 9-11 happened.....

~Joe


----------



## Shado

traveler said:


> I felt the benefits and wages were outstanding....until 9-11 happened.....
> 
> ~Joe


I'm sorry...but I am clueless on what transpired then. Would you explain please?


----------



## user5941

Shado said:


> Agreed...yet as my statements point out....the incentives must not be enough to make a change either way.
> 
> Would you agree to this?
> 
> I personally enjoy these debates, no matter how heated they may become. The more info put out here, the more educated we all become.


 I think the guy who does not get a paid vacation would like one but does not have enough clout to get the employer to do it,the best way to quiet union talk is to get rid of the talker.Fear and intimidation by employers goes a long way I hope card check passes and you will see a dramatic rise in membership.


----------



## Shado

What is card check? What is it supposed to do?


----------



## captkirk

rewire said:


> I think the drop in union membership is because of the good job unions have done in securing better working conditions for all. Kind of ironic.
> We also have a large % of contractors that employ less than three people and pay well under union wage and have no benefits because of low bidding they cannot afford to.
> In some markets you have a large union presence and in some you dont in those you dont wages are usually low.
> unionizing three and four man shops is very difficult.


 LOL dude seriously get over it...........your too much.....your so full of it and its really sad that you dont see it. If I tell you that I worked for two fantastic non-union shop youll come back and tell me its because of the union.......LOL .......You sound like a communist......and the American dream is really dead with you. So much for a guy hanging his own shingle...I guess unless i can give EVERYTHING to my workers I might as well close shop.


----------



## user5941

captkirk said:


> LOL dude seriously get over it...........your too much.....your so full of it and its really sad that you dont see it. If I tell you that I worked for two fantastic non-union shop youll come back and tell me its because of the union.......LOL .......You sound like a communist......and the American dream is really dead with you. So much for a guy hanging his own shingle...I guess unless i can give EVERYTHING to my workers I might as well close shop.


 I am unsure how to respond The dream is alive and well ,what I do understand and you do not is you don't disband the military just because you have peace.If you enjoy peace you don't try and make out like the military had nothinf to do with it. I own several weapons and I am fully capable of defending my home but I don't want to get rid of the military even if I don't want to join.


----------



## B4T

rewire said:


> I am unsure how to respond The dream is alive and well ,what I do understand and you do not is you don't disband the military just because you have peace.If you enjoy peace you don't try and make out like the military had nothinf to do with it. I own several weapons and I am fully capable of defending my home but I don't want to get rid of the military even if I don't want to join.


You should be the poster boy for gun control :laughing:


----------



## user5941

Black4Truck said:


> You should be the poster boy for gun control :laughing:


 gun control is being able to hit your target:whistling2:


----------



## BryanMD

[B said:


> rewire[/B]]
> _I think the drop in union membership is because of the good job unions have done in securing better working conditions for all. Kind of ironic.
> 100% correct. And most accomplished before most of us were born.
> 
> We also have a large % of contractors that employ less than three people and pay well under union wage and have no benefits because of low bidding they cannot afford to.
> 100% correct. And far too many of them cutting each others throat.
> 
> In some markets you have a large union presence and in some you don't in those you don't wages are usually low.
> 100% correct.
> 
> unionizing three and four man shops is very difficult.
> 100% correct.
> _







captkirk said:


> If I tell you that I worked for two fantastic non-union shop youll come back and tell me its because of the union
> 
> that is called an anecdote.
> 
> You sound like a communist......and the American dream is really dead with you.
> 
> that is called hyperbole
> (or do you really believe it says something about the issues?)
> 
> So much for a guy hanging his own shingle...I guess unless i can give EVERYTHING to my workers I might as well close shop.


CK: you're far too defensive as if needing to justify your own choice.


----------



## amptech

rewire said:


> I think the guy who does not get a paid vacation would like one but does not have enough clout to get the employer to do it,the best way to quiet union talk is to get rid of the talker.Fear and intimidation by employers goes a long way I hope card check passes and you will see a dramatic rise in membership.


"Card Check" is the biggest step backwards that labor can take at this point. It is completely anti-democratic and makes absolutely no sense. This country was founded on elections via secret ballot to preserve a voter's ability to decide without fear of backlash from the opposing side. Why on earth would any free-thinking lover of freedom want to eliminate the secret ballot? I already know the answer and I don't like it one bit.


----------



## Bob Badger

rewire said:


> gun control is being able to hit your target:whistling2:


It's always darkest before the dawn.

Six of one half dozen of the other.

Don't do the crime if you can't do the time

Turn your frown upside-down


----------



## amptech

Bob Badger said:


> It's always darkest before the dawn.
> 
> Six of one half dozen of the other.
> 
> Don't do the crime if you can't do the time
> 
> Turn your frown upside-down


Bob, you forgot my favorite:
I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy.


----------



## user5941

Bob Badger said:


> It's always darkest before the dawn.
> 
> Six of one half dozen of the other.
> 
> Don't do the crime if you can't do the time
> 
> Turn your frown upside-down


 24 beers in a case 24 hours in a day


----------



## user5941

amptech said:


> "Card Check" is the biggest step backwards that labor can take at this point. It is completely anti-democratic and makes absolutely no sense. This country was founded on elections via secret ballot to preserve a voter's ability to decide without fear of backlash from the opposing side. Why on earth would any free-thinking lover of freedom want to eliminate the secret ballot? I already know the answer and I don't like it one bit.


 The secret ballot was never mandatory.The secret ballot has to be requested and it can take up to 30 days and it is almost always requested by the employer and why would an employer insist on a secret ballot when presented with a majority of signed cards ?


----------



## miller_elex

traveler said:


> FWIW the union will be dead within 10 years or so.


The union is more than construction, it has a rock-solid footing into utilities and outside contractors. Construction is taking a beating from anti-union forces elsewhere, but not here. That being said, we don't want a bunch of Texas and Florida union electricians up here saturating the market, you all need to fix your problems down there.


----------



## amptech

rewire said:


> The secret ballot was never mandatory.The secret ballot has to be requested and it can take up to 30 days and it is almost always requested by the employer and why would an employer insist on a secret ballot when presented with a majority of signed cards ?


You are a true kool-aid slurper if you actually believe that crap you just wrote. I work with several union men and women of integrity who all say what a big mistake card check is. It will only make things easier for unions at the expense of personal freedoms. If you think it is morally wrong for a company to strong-arm an individual, why isn't it just as wrong for a union to do it? Card check accomplishes nothing more than making intimidation of employees by unions easier and legal. If what you said and I have quoted here is actually true, what would be the benefit of passing card check?


----------



## captkirk

BryanMD said:


> [/i]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CK: you're far too defensive as if needing to justify your own choice.


 Who me.....? I reallly dont care what other people think...Im in a happy place right now have been for the last 10 years...... He just gets on my nerves.. a typical know it all.......


----------



## robnj772

miller_elex said:


> The union is more than construction, it has a rock-solid footing into utilities and outside contractors. Construction is taking a beating from anti-union forces elsewhere, but not here. That being said, we don't want a bunch of Texas and Florida union electricians up here saturating the market, you all need to fix your problems down there.


Why the hell would someone in FL or Tx even want to go to Oregon anyway ? :laughing::laughing:

But hey wait a minute I thought you "brothers" were supposed to take care of one another?


----------



## captkirk

Rewire Its nothing personal really .....but some of your comments are just to much.....


----------



## user5941

amptech said:


> You are a true kool-aid slurper if you actually believe that crap you just wrote. I work with several union men and women of integrity who all say what a big mistake card check is. It will only make things easier for unions at the expense of personal freedoms. If you think it is morally wrong for a company to strong-arm an individual, why isn't it just as wrong for a union to do it? Card check accomplishes nothing more than making intimidation of employees by unions easier and legal. If what you said and I have quoted here is actually true, what would be the benefit of passing card check?


 this sounds like right wing radio talking points. Koolaide slurper ?? Card check simply takes away the employers advantage and eliminates the employers ability to intimidate employees.No labor laws protecting both employer and employee will be eliminated before the cards are signed so strong arm tactics that right wingers claim will still violate the law and render cards invalid. Your assertion that intimidation will be made legal is beyond stupid.


----------



## user5941

captkirk said:


> Rewire Its nothing personal really .....but some of your comments are just to much.....


 I never take anything on a message board personally and I am looking for nobodys aproval I post what I think and you agree opr disagree don't take it personal


----------



## 480sparky

rewire said:


> I never take anything on a message board personally and I am looking for nobodys aproval I post what I think and you agree opr disagree don't take it personal


That's rich. REAL rich! I almost pissed my pants on that one.

Hateraid.


----------



## cdnelectrician

EDM said:


> Everyone is a slug, you know how hard it is to get a good worker out of the IBEW??
> 
> All of them have your mentality, that they can stroll around and wire up a light per hour for $47/hr and great benefits. Why work hard when you can be union?


That is not true, On most of the jobs I have been on...you slack off...your GONE.


----------



## user5941

480sparky said:


> That's rich. REAL rich! I almost pissed my pants on that one.
> 
> Hateraid.


 Rat wear pants ? I thought only Mickey Mouse did:laughing::laughing:


----------



## 480sparky

rewire said:


> Rat wear pants ? I thought only Mickey Mouse did:laughing::laughing:


I thought you knew EVEYTHING about rats.... how we stab people in the back, kiss asses, work for a pittance with no bennies.....



Yea, you don't take things personal. You just start threads where you can cry, "Mommy!"















BTW, Mickey is a MOUSE, not a RAT. Try taking your rose-colored glasses off.


----------



## user5941

480sparky said:


> I thought you knew EVEYTHING about rats.... how we stab people in the back, kiss asses, work for a pittance with no bennies.....
> 
> 
> 
> Yea, you don't take things personal. You just start threads where you can cry, "Mommy!"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/quo'te]
> I have never cried "mommy" once again you are caught in a lie
> 
> are you admitting you stab people in the back,kiss ass,and work for pittance?


----------



## 480sparky

rewire said:


> I have never cried "mommy" once again you are caught in a lie......


 
You're so plastered, you can't even click on the Quote button correctly.


Like someone else said...... you're like Charlie Brown's teacher:

"Bwah bwah bwah, bwah bwaaah bwah bwaaaaaahhhhh. Bwaah bwah bwaaahhhh bwah bwahhh bwah bhaaaah."





rewire said:


> .......are you admitting you stab people in the back,kiss ass,and work for pittance?


If you had a brain cell that could have comprehended any of the posts I have put up about it, you'd know the answer to that childish remark.


----------



## user5941

480sparky said:


> BTW, Mickey is a MOUSE, not a RAT. Try taking your rose-colored glasses off.


 could that be why they call him Mickey MOUSE you are so obtuse


----------



## Power Tech

480sparky said:


> I thought you knew EVEYTHING about rats.... how we stab people in the back, kiss asses, work for a pittance with no bennies.....
> 
> 
> Not true. Rats are loyal, trustworthy, friendly, and good luck.
> 
> Last year 2008 was the year of the rat (china).


----------



## user5941

Power Tech said:


> 480sparky said:
> 
> 
> 
> I thought you knew EVEYTHING about rats.... how we stab people in the back, kiss asses, work for a pittance with no bennies.....
> 
> 
> Not true. Rats are loyal, trustworthy, friendly, and good luck.
> 
> Last year 2008 was the year of the rat (china).
> 
> 
> 
> I have a pet hooded rat I have this large plastic ball he runs in it drives our terrier up the wall:laughing:
Click to expand...


----------



## Power Tech

rewire said:


> Power Tech said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have a pet hooded rat I have this large plastic ball he runs in it drives our terrier up the wall:laughing:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't make me jealous.:no:
Click to expand...


----------



## user5941

Power Tech said:


> rewire said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't make me jealous.:no:
> 
> 
> 
> I found out the hard way they eat hamsters
Click to expand...


----------



## robnj772




----------



## user5941

robnj772 said:


> rewire said:
> 
> 
> 
> I thought your ass ate hamsters,shaved ones....
> 
> :laughing::laughing:
> 
> 
> 
> your mind goes to some real sick places do they allow you around children
Click to expand...


----------



## amptech

rewire said:


> this sounds like right wing radio talking points. Koolaide slurper ?? Card check simply takes away the employers advantage and eliminates the employers ability to intimidate employees.No labor laws protecting both employer and employee will be eliminated before the cards are signed so strong arm tactics that right wingers claim will still violate the law and render cards invalid. Your assertion that intimidation will be made legal is beyond stupid.


I worked at a company that the Teamsters tried to organize. A handful of employees got the ball rolling and the union organizers showed up. The company allowed them on the property 2 days in a row to give informational presentations during our lunch hour.The organizers wanted everyone to write their name, address and phone number on a 3x5 card for contact purposes. I and several others declined to fill out the cards at the first meeting. Guess what? Somehow they got our home phone numbers anyway and called us that evening to pressure us to fill out a card at the meeting the next day. I didn't do it and neither did most of the other employees. They announced at the second meeting that there would be a meeting at a local motel in the evening where you could sign up to start the process to organize.About 15 of 250 employees showed up. They said there were DOL reps there observing. Needless to say the union wasn't happy. For the next several weeks I and several other employees who declined to sign an "informational card"were called almost nightly by union reps and hounded about missing out on the benefits of union membership. It got to the point of harassment, in my opinion. When only 15 people signed the petition to organize at the motel the union produced the "informational cards" that about 60 people turned in at that first lunch meeting claiming they were declarations of intent to organize. Labor Relations spent about a week interviewing employees, on company time, to find out what was really going on. They ended up asking the union to back off until they were contacted again by an employee delegation. They never were. This was in 1989 and the company remains non-union. The union organizer's behavior in my experience did them no good. 
Under the Card Check legislation, those 3x5 "informational cards" would count as votes to organize. That is just wrong. 3x5 cards with a name on them should not count as informed votes of either yea or nay.


----------



## Power Tech

robnj772 said:


> rewire said:
> 
> 
> 
> I thought your ass ate hamsters,shaved ones....
> 
> :laughing::laughing:
> 
> 
> 
> Hay, you quoted me. :innocent:
> 
> You have me confused with Richard Gere.:laughing:
Click to expand...


----------



## PhatElvis

amptech said:


> I worked at a company that the Teamsters tried to organize. A handful of employees got the ball rolling and the union organizers showed up. The company allowed them on the property 2 days in a row to give informational presentations during our lunch hour.The organizers wanted everyone to write their name, address and phone number on a 3x5 card for contact purposes.


 Guess what, that is called a vote. If you fill it out and sign the card, the union then takes these cards to the business owner and presents them, if he looks at them he has accepted the vote and.... oh wait I just read your last paragraph... you got it.

I would like to say for the record I could not find any rats dressed as Elvis, and Mickey was a close as I could find.


----------



## captkirk

I worked for one EC that had all his trucks vandalized by Union members. We won the bid for a Party City headquarters and they showed up and picketed and harassed us as we went in to work. It got so bad that we had to be shuttled from the shop in one of the bosses vans because some guys had their personal vehicles vandalized as well. 
Soon after the work trucks got hit too. He finally agreed to hire a few of them and that was when the real fun started. They basically screwed up every tool, they used. They "broke" drills, snakes, bits you name it......
That experience pretty much summed it all up for me as far as the NJ IBEW goes......


----------



## robnj772

Power Tech said:


> robnj772 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hay, you quoted me. :innocent:
> 
> You have me confused with Richard Gere.:laughing:
> 
> 
> 
> Who the hell are you?
> 
> I didn't quote you at all
> 
> WTF are you talking about?
Click to expand...


----------



## Power Tech

robnj772 said:


> Power Tech said:
> 
> 
> 
> Who the hell are you?
> 
> I didn't quote you at all
> 
> WTF are you talking about?
> 
> 
> 
> Who the F*** are you?
> 
> Yes you did!
> 
> Do you know what you are talking about?:whistling2:
Click to expand...


----------



## robnj772

Power Tech said:


> robnj772 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Who the F*** are you?
> 
> Yes you did!
> 
> Do you know what you are talking about?:whistling2:
> 
> 
> 
> Huh?
> 
> I really don't follow you
> 
> If your trying to be funny ,don't quit your day job
> 
> There must be a full moon
Click to expand...


----------



## Speedy Petey

robnj772 said:


> There must be a full moon


NO KIDDING! This board went completely nuts today!


----------



## Power Tech

robnj772 said:


> Power Tech said:
> 
> 
> 
> Huh?
> 
> I really don't follow you
> 
> If your trying to be funny ,don't quit your day job
> 
> There must be a full moon
> 
> 
> 
> Post 392, 393 and 394.
> 
> You posted that I was the one I found out the hard way, they eat hamsters.
> 
> I never said that.
> 
> Thought you were getting hostel.
> 
> Thanks for the welcome.
Click to expand...


----------



## Shado

PhatElvis said:


> I would like to say for the record I could not find any rats dressed as Elvis, and Mickey was a close as I could find.


You can never go wrong when it's the King of Rock and Roll!!!


----------



## traveler

captkirk said:


> I worked for one EC that had all his trucks vandalized by Union members. We won the bid for a Party City headquarters and they showed up and picketed and harassed us as we went in to work. It got so bad that we had to be shuttled from the shop in one of the bosses vans because some guys had their personal vehicles vandalized as well.
> Soon after the work trucks got hit too. He finally agreed to hire a few of them and that was when the real fun started. They basically screwed up every tool, they used. They "broke" drills, snakes, bits you name it......
> That experience pretty much summed it all up for me as far as the NJ IBEW goes......


Yeah, the guys out in Jersey don't have much patience for those who cross picket lines. A few years ago in Pueblo, colorado, when the guys crossed they got spit on and usually mobbed by the time they reached the gang box they were bloody and beaten. You have to really want the job to cross a picket line. 

Damn shame about the vandalism and sabotage on the job.

Having a picket line (without the violence)is fine...the other stuff is just criminal.

~Joe


----------



## Thomps

traveler said:


> Yeah, the guys out in Jersey don't have much patience for those who cross picket lines. A few years ago in Pueblo, colorado, when the guys crossed they got spit on and usually mobbed by the time they reached the gang box they were bloody and beaten. You have to really want the job to cross a picket line.
> 
> Damn shame about the vandalism and sabotage on the job.
> 
> Having a picket line (without the violence)is fine...the other stuff is just criminal.
> 
> ~Joe


I have a question about this particular situation. Reading CK's post, his company was awarded the contract for the project. Now unless there were specific concerns about labour law violations, what right would a union local have to strike/picket the project? Sour grapes isn't a legitamite reason to picket, the contract was awarded, move on!

Are there any other particulars about this situation that haven't been shared?


----------



## captkirk

Thomps said:


> I have a question about this particular situation. Reading CK's post, his company was awarded the contract for the project. Now unless there were specific concerns about labour law violations, what right would a union local have to strike/picket the project? Sour grapes isn't a legitamite reason to picket, the contract was awarded, move on!
> 
> Are there any other particulars about this situation that haven't been shared?


 No that was pretty much how it all went down. FWIW spitting on someone is considered assault in some states. These guys werent that brazzen but cowards and sore loosers for sure. One could almost quantify them as home grown terroist.


----------



## Thomps

captkirk said:


> No that was pretty much how it all went down. FWIW spitting on someone is considered assault in some states. These guys werent that brazzen but cowards and sore loosers for sure. One could almost quantify them as home grown terroist.


Sorry, but this is something that I just can't understand. How can anyone justify practices like that?


----------



## BryanMD

Thomps said:


> Sorry, but this is something that I just can't understand. How can anyone justify practices like that?


well, in fairness to the picketers you have to put it into perspective.
f'rinstance.. ever seen how a Dolphins fan was treated at Meadowlands?


----------



## Thomps

BryanMD said:


> well, in fairness to the picketers you have to put it into perspective.
> f'rinstance.. ever seen how a Dolphins fan was treated at Meadowlands?


Sorry Bryan, but not being a football fan, you may have to a bit clearer for me. 

I am fully prepared to give the picketers the benefit of the doubt, but based so far, it's just wrong.


----------



## robnj772

BryanMD said:


> well, in fairness to the picketers you have to put it into perspective.
> f'rinstance.. ever seen how a Dolphins fan was treated at Meadowlands?


 
And what would the treatment of a football fan have anything to do with this at all?


----------



## traveler

captkirk said:


> No that was pretty much how it all went down. FWIW spitting on someone is considered assault in some states. These guys werent that brazzen but cowards and sore loosers for sure. One could almost quantify them as home grown terroist.


You are absolutely correct, and I agree with you 100%.

I tried to convey in my response that picket lines are okay, in my opinion....acts of violence ARE NOT!

~Joe


----------



## Thomps

traveler said:


> You are absolutely correct, and I agree with you 100%.
> 
> I tried to convey in my response that picket lines are okay, in my opinion....acts of violence ARE NOT!
> 
> ~Joe


But what is a picket in this situation going to accomplish? Hoe can any justify picketing a site because someone else got the job?


----------



## RIVETER

traveler said:


> You are absolutely correct, and I agree with you 100%.
> 
> I tried to convey in my response that picket lines are okay, in my opinion....acts of violence ARE NOT!
> 
> ~Joe


 I agree with this statement. It is hurtful when someone crosses YOUR line, but you do not have the right to infringe on their RIGHTS, as well.


----------



## John Valdes

BryanMD said:


> well, in fairness to the picketers you have to put it into perspective.
> f'rinstance.. ever seen how a Dolphins fan was treated at Meadowlands?


I am sure not very good. But Jets fans are treated very well in Miami. Of course 40% of the crowd are Jet Fans.


----------



## Bob Badger

RIVETER said:


> I agree with this statement. It is hurtful when someone crosses *YOUR* line, but you do not have the right to infringe on their *RIGHTS*, as well.


RIVETER Has anyone TOLD YOU that the use of CAPITOLS is bad forum etiquette.

*IT IS CONSIDERED YELLING!*


----------



## BryanMD

John Valdes said:


> I am sure not very good. But Jets fans are treated very well in Miami. Of course 40% of the crowd are Jet Fans.



I suppose I should used some smileys but at least one person got the joke
(figures it was a Dolphins fan)

Ravens joke:
BREAKING RAVENS NEWS: Cleveland, OH- During halftime of the Monday Night Football game between the Baltimore Ravens and the Cleveland Browns, Ravens Kicker Steven Haushka attempted suicide by hanging in the locker room. Fortunately, he was unable to kick the chair out from under his own feet and survived with minimal injury. This is an unfortunate turn of events for Ravens Fans.


----------



## e57

RIVETER said:


> The term BROTHER denotes solidarity and brotherhood
> and the willingness to support all people...as if they were your brother.


 Actually it denotes Fraternity and by proxy - nepotism...


----------



## Power Tech

BryanMD said:


> I suppose I should used some smileys but at least one person got the joke
> (figures it was a Dolphins fan)
> 
> Ravens joke:
> BREAKING RAVENS NEWS: Cleveland, OH- During halftime of the Monday Night Football game between the Baltimore Ravens and the Cleveland Browns, Ravens Kicker Steven Haushka attempted suicide by hanging in the locker room. Fortunately, he was unable to kick the chair out from under his own feet and survived with minimal injury. This is an unfortunate turn of events for Ravens Fans.


That is not funny!:laughing::laughing::laughing:


----------



## captkirk

traveler said:


> You are absolutely correct, and I agree with you 100%.
> 
> I tried to convey in my response that picket lines are okay, in my opinion....acts of violence ARE NOT!
> 
> ~Joe


 I really felt bad for my boss. he had a looooooot of tires and windows to replace....Im sure the Terrorist were real proud of themselves but I guess there not familiar of how insurance works......


----------



## nitro71

traveler said:


> Yeah, the guys out in Jersey don't have much patience for those who cross picket lines. A few years ago in Pueblo, colorado, when the guys crossed they got spit on and usually mobbed by the time they reached the gang box they were bloody and beaten. You have to really want the job to cross a picket line. ~Joe


That's why God gave us the .45 ACP :gun_bandana:


----------



## John Valdes

nitro71 said:


> That's why God gave us the .45 ACP :gun_bandana:


But not the brains to use it. Silly.


----------



## user5941

John Valdes said:


> But not the brains to use it. Silly.


 God gave man a brain and a penis and not enough blood to operate both


----------



## LGLS

oldman said:


> i know this....i can't pay a guy $200,000 a year, if he only generates $150,000 a year...no matter how legendary he is in his own mind...


So if he generates 150,00 a year, what *is he "entitled to?"*

If this was the 20's, he'd be entitled to a cardboard shack while his boss enjoyed ( for a little while) the maiden voyage on the Titanic.

If this was the late 60's, he'd make 90% or 135,000.00

Nowadays, seems business owners are headed toward the Titanic!


----------



## LGLS

Thomps said:


> But what is a picket in this situation going to accomplish? Hoe can any justify picketing a site because someone else got the job?


Picketing is freedom of expression. You don't have to personally agree with it.


----------



## LGLS

amptech said:


> I worked at a company that the Teamsters tried to organize. A handful of employees got the ball rolling and the union organizers showed up. The company allowed them on the property 2 days in a row to give informational presentations during our lunch hour.The organizers wanted everyone to write their name, address and phone number on a 3x5 card for contact purposes. I and several others declined to fill out the cards at the first meeting. Guess what? Somehow they got our home phone numbers anyway and called us that evening to pressure us to fill out a card at the meeting the next day. I didn't do it and neither did most of the other employees. They announced at the second meeting that there would be a meeting at a local motel in the evening where you could sign up to start the process to organize.About 15 of 250 employees showed up. They said there were DOL reps there observing. Needless to say the union wasn't happy. For the next several weeks I and several other employees who declined to sign an "informational card"were called almost nightly by union reps and hounded about missing out on the benefits of union membership. It got to the point of harassment, in my opinion. When only 15 people signed the petition to organize at the motel the union produced the "informational cards" that about 60 people turned in at that first lunch meeting claiming they were declarations of intent to organize. Labor Relations spent about a week interviewing employees, on company time, to find out what was really going on. They ended up asking the union to back off until they were contacted again by an employee delegation. They never were. This was in 1989 and the company remains non-union. The union organizer's behavior in my experience did them no good.
> Under the Card Check legislation, those 3x5 "informational cards" would count as votes to organize. That is just wrong. 3x5 cards with a name on them should not count as informed votes of either yea or nay.


Knowing nothing else, sounds to me like the Teamsters hired a piss-poor organizer.


----------



## Thomps

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Picketing is freedom of expression. You don't have to personally agree with it.


 
I didn't ask what a picket is, I asked what was it meant to accomplish in this particular situation.


----------



## robertwilber

RIVETER said:


> oldman...I do not know how old you are, but I hope that you have not given up. There is a great difference between SHARING THE WEALTH and EARNING THE WEALTH. If you don't believe that your labor does entitle you to a PIECE of the action, live with it. Don't bring the rest of us down.


It is not your labor that entitles you to a piece of the action. That entitles you to your paycheck. It is the financial risk you take that entitles you to a piece of the action.


----------



## Power Tech

robertwilber said:


> It is not your labor that entitles you to a piece of the action. That entitles you to your paycheck. It is the financial risk you take that entitles you to a piece of the action.


Truth has spoken.:thumbsup:


----------



## 480sparky

robertwilber said:


> It is not your labor that entitles you to a piece of the action. That entitles you to your paycheck. It is the financial risk you take that entitles you to a piece of the action.


That is the definition of profit.

Profit is NOT what is left over after all the bills are paid. Profit is your reward for taking a finacial risk.


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## oldman

not only that, their "piece" is guaranteed every week...i only get mine if i bet right...


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## PhatElvis

robertwilber said:


> It is not your labor that entitles you to a piece of the action. That entitles you to your paycheck. It is the financial risk you take that entitles you to a piece of the action.


 LOL.... I think you are pissing up a rope.

My labor loves to talk about profit sharing, and how much money they make for me, but turn that conversation to loss sharing and you can hear the crickets chirp.

On the few occasions one them bites and will discuss it, then it becomes clear that labor believes when jobs make money its only because of the labor, and when jobs lose money it is solely because of management.


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## oldman

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> So if he generates 150,00 a year, what *is he "entitled to?"*
> 
> If this was the 20's, he'd be entitled to a cardboard shack while his boss enjoyed ( for a little while) the maiden voyage on the Titanic.
> 
> If this was the late 60's, he'd make 90% or 135,000.00
> 
> Nowadays, seems business owners are headed toward the Titanic!



there ain't a shop out there that can pay 90%...i'd be shocked if you could find me a profitable shop that can pay over 55%....and i'd fall over if you could show me a shop that can stay in business paying over 65%....

historically, service should be around 35% and construction about 50% max....


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## oldman

PhatElvis said:


> LOL.... I think you are pissing up a rope.
> 
> My labor loves to talk about profit sharing, and how much money they make for me, but turn that conversation to loss sharing and you can hear the crickets chirp.
> 
> On the few occasions one them bites and will discuss it, then it becomes clear that labor believes when jobs make money its only because of the labor, and when jobs lose money it is solely because of management.


it's always bad management....always....and labor prospers in spite of bad management....


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## Bob Badger

PhatElvis said:


> it becomes clear that labor believes when jobs make money its only because of the labor, and when jobs lose money it is solely because of management.


Well yeah ..... but that is true.


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## LGLS

480sparky said:


> That is the definition of profit.
> 
> Profit is NOT what is left over after all the bills are paid. Profit is your reward for taking a finacial risk.


That is your definition of profit. 
Not all financial risks come with rewards. When one does engage in the game, and finds the risk was miscalculated, or mismanaged, and demands that labor take that hit, what do you call profit?


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## brian john

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> When one does engage in the game, and finds the risk was miscalculated, or mismanaged, and demands that labor take that hit, what do you call profit?


Depending on the situation

Good team work

Smart choice on labors part if it means their job may not be lost.


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## user4818

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> That is your definition of profit.
> Not all financial risks come with rewards. When one does engage in the game, and finds the risk was miscalculated, or mismanaged, and demands that labor take that hit, what do you call profit?



:ban:


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## Bob Badger

Peter D said:


> :ban:


Ah at the least he is entertaining.


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## user4818

Bob Badger said:


> Ah at the least he is entertaining.


Yeah, but even that novelty is starting to wear off.


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## 480sparky

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> That is your definition of profit.
> Not all financial risks come with rewards. When one does engage in the game, and finds the risk was miscalculated, or mismanaged, and demands that labor take that hit, what do you call profit?


 
Thanks for reminding me I'm a rat. I could care less about profit. I only want that extra 3¢ an hour I gain by stabbing co-workers in the back.









Did I ever say that every job makes a profit? Did I even mention it? Suggest it? Remotely refer to it?




C'mon. LGLS, do you honestly believe us open shops go to our help and say, "Sorry, guys, we lost money on that last big job. Everyone's pay just went down."???

Or, is it only union shops that make a profit on your planet?


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## PhatElvis

Peter D said:


> :ban:


At this point his senile rants do more to further the points made by the contractors and non-union electricians. Why ban a good thing?


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## al13nw4r3LC76

480sparky said:


> Thanks for reminding me I'm a rat. I could care less about profit. I only want that extra 3¢ an hour I gain by stabbing co-workers in the back.


:no:


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## Shado

480sparky said:


> Thanks for reminding me I'm a rat. I could care less about profit. I only want that extra 3¢ an hour I gain by stabbing co-workers in the back.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> C'mon. LGLS, do you honestly believe us open shops go to our help and say, "Sorry, guys, we lost money on that last big job. Everyone's pay just went down."???
> 
> Or, is it only union shops that make a profit on your planet?


480...you have to remember that it is union fact that Rat EC's don't pay their crew correctly, or offer any form of bene's....we run a slave trade and bid all jobs at same rates as union...$$ for $$...and pocket all the rest of the money.


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## Shado

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> *That is your definition of profit*.
> Not all financial risks come with rewards. When one does engage in the game, and finds the risk was miscalculated, or mismanaged, *and demands that labor take that hit,* what do you call profit?


LGLS...480 has it correct.

Break out the Merriam-Webster...and give it a read.....
eh, here you go:

'Profit - the compensation accruing to entrepreneurs for the assumption of risk in business enterprise as distinguished from wages or rent.'

In regards to *blue* above...has this been your experience? Just curious...


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## 480sparky

Shado said:


> 480...you have to remember that it is union fact that Rat EC's don't pay their crew correctly, or offer any form of bene's....we run a slave trade and bid all jobs at same rates as union...$$ for $$...and pocket all the rest of the money.


I'm surprised it's not a well-known union fact that Rat ECs are willing to stab other Rat ECs in the back by bidding a job for $1 less.:whistling2:

After all, Rat ECs started out as Rats, right? And we never learned anything more than stabbing others in the back, did we?

So instead of being a Rat stabbing other Rats in the back, I'm now a Rat EC who has elevated myself to stabbing other Rat ECs in the back. "Yes, my bid is not $48,000, but $47,999......... I can screw one of my employees out of that buck. Heck, maybe three or four of them!"


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## al13nw4r3LC76

RATS!!! :whistling2:


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## miller_elex

al13nw4r3LC76 said:


> RATS!!! :whistling2:


Can someone please photoshop the IEC / ABC logo onto that rat's vest???!?!?!?


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## RIVETER

oldman said:


> everyday, people get up and literally risk everything they have on their dreams...some succeed, some crash and fail...you feel that this risk is not worth more than you showing up for 8 hrs and collecting a paycheck?


Absolutely not...but I feel that if I have an ability to make someone who has risked it all (Entreprenuerism), to make a go of it, he has in effect, taken me on as a partner, so to speak, to achieve his goals.
Not all workers are alike, I understand, but if you have a bad egg, so to speak, you can fire him/her.I know myself, and I believe that you cannot blame ALL failures on UNION LABOR.


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## captkirk

:drink:


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## RIVETER

Rights


captkirk said:


> :drink:


Not sure what that means, but if the picture to the left is your kid, it is a beautiful child.


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## 480sparky

RIVETER said:


> RightsNot sure what that means, but if the picture to the left is your kid, it is a beautiful child.


I hope you mean his avatar, and not the smilie. :laughing:


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## RIVETER

480sparky said:


> I hope you mean his avatar, and not the smilie. :laughing:


I don't know what an avatar is and the smilie was to the right of the cup.


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## BuzzKill

Worker's are just a means to an end: and end of ME getting rich.


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## RIVETER

*kWorker's Rights*



BuzzKill said:


> Worker's are just a means to an end: and end of ME getting rich.


Most of us are just trying to support our families comfortably. If you, as a worker figure it out...please let us know how.


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## Bob Badger

RIVETER said:


> Absolutely not...but I feel that if I have an ability to make someone who has risked it all (Entreprenuerism), to make a go of it, *he has in effect, taken me on as a partner*, so to speak,


No you are not his partner in any way shape or form unless your going to take losses as well as the gains.

You're an hourly employee that can be replaced.


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## oldman

Bob Badger said:


> No you are not his partner in any way shape or form unless your going to take losses as well as the gains.
> 
> You're an hourly employee that can be replaced.


'zactly....


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