# Allen Bradley PF 4 w/ timer relay etc..



## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Homework ?

Yuck !


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## Mcswain (Dec 25, 2016)

I don't have class again til Monday and I want to figure out or drive me nuts lol. We've done a bunch of other stuff but just getting more into the VFD's.


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## Mcswain (Dec 25, 2016)

telsa said:


> Homework ?
> 
> Yuck !


Nah I'm just an over achiever lol and obsessive!


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## Mcswain (Dec 25, 2016)

I know it's simple just haven't gotten much seat time!


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## mbednarik (Oct 10, 2011)

Mcswain said:


> Newest lab in class is using Power Flex 4 and connecting them to each other's panels.
> 
> This is what needs to be done/drawn up.
> 
> ...


Does each station have its own indicator and start button? Does the indicator of each station have to stay on until the process is complete or just on showing that station is giving the run signal to the VFD?


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## oliquir (Jan 13, 2011)

wow this is so 1990 , they should gives you small plc (or smart relays) to do that, hardware timer/relays logics is very outdated
some vfds also have inside logic blocks that could do that internally


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

oliquir said:


> wow this is so 1990 , they should gives you small plc (or smart relays) to do that, hardware timer/relays logics is very outdated
> some vfds also have inside logic blocks that could do that internally


This is just a building block to what they build up to I'm sure.


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## Mcswain (Dec 25, 2016)

Yes we build up to PLC's. We have done some Power Factor correction, Wye Start/Delta Run using contractors lots of stuff. Just the flavor we're in right now. Each station after the precious one completes will have the light and motor come on. The light being 120v. Then feeds Power to next panel.


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## Mcswain (Dec 25, 2016)

mbednarik said:


> Mcswain said:
> 
> 
> > Newest lab in class is using Power Flex 4 and connecting them to each other's panels.
> ...


 The start button, latching and stop is on first panel only


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Is this a Union based course of study or a vocational, ABC school?


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## Mcswain (Dec 25, 2016)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Is this a Union based course of study or a vocational, ABC school?


Vicational


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## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

Mcswain said:


> Vicational


What's that? Victorian vocational school? :angel:

While it's true that "some drives" have that functionality built-in, the PF4 does not, and that may be the point of the exercise, the process of thinking about how that would work.

So think along these lines: a cascade. Create a sequence for Drive 1 that starts from a PB being pushed momentarily, runs for 4 seconds and stops. Then repeat that for each station down the line, but substitute the PB closure with a contact from the previous station that does the same initiation function as that PB.


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## sparkiez (Aug 1, 2015)

oliquir said:


> wow this is so 1990 , they should gives you small plc (or smart relays) to do that, hardware timer/relays logics is very outdated
> some vfds also have inside logic blocks that could do that internally


There are, in fact, certain applications where hard-wired is still the way to go. Most modern safety circuits still have hard-wired components even if the safety relay is solid state.

There are also TONS of hardwired systems still in place that work just fine. It may be old technology but is pretty darn prevalent to this day.

I'm a PLC guy myself, but this school is training tech's, and as a tech you WILL run into hardwired circuits and you WILL need to troubleshoot them. They are quite a bit more difficult than most issues you run across on a PLC controlled system.

I would like to see pictures/videos of the system when complete, or an update of how it is going.


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## Mcswain (Dec 25, 2016)

No problem I will try to get a video and more info after we get it completed. We've done some pretty fun setups using 2 timer relays, 2 motor timers, forward and reverse motor contact or and 5 bulbs all doing different things for different amounts of times and either continuously recycling or stopping byself when completed. 
We will have 400 hours of PLC in the future.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

sparkiez said:


> There are, in fact, certain applications where hard-wired is still the way to go. Most modern safety circuits still have hard-wired components even if the safety relay is solid state.
> 
> There are also TONS of hardwired systems still in place that work just fine. It may be old technology but is pretty darn prevalent to this day.
> 
> ...


Some of us will still design and install hard-wired controls when a PLC just doesn't make sense.........


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

micromind said:


> Some of us will still design and install hard-wired controls when a PLC just doesn't make sense.........


I have seen some very simple tasks where people throw a PLC at it because they throw a PLC at everything. If it's a simple thing, and it might be doable with relay logic without turning into a real tangle, I kind of run it out both ways and decide. Relays are cheap, reliable, non-proprietary, straightforward, the parts don't become unavailable in ten years, no code to maintain, not very susceptible to lightning damage. The PLC is more flexible and expandable, if there's a good chance that the simple task today will grow into more later, better just jump in and go PLC from the start.


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## sparkiez (Aug 1, 2015)

splatz said:


> I have seen some very simple tasks where people throw a PLC at it because they throw a PLC at everything. If it's a simple thing, and it might be doable with relay logic without turning into a real tangle, I kind of run it out both ways and decide. Relays are cheap, reliable, non-proprietary, straightforward, the parts don't become unavailable in ten years, no code to maintain, not very susceptible to lightning damage. The PLC is more flexible and expandable, if there's a good chance that the simple task today will grow into more later, better just jump in and go PLC from the start.


You hit the nail on the head with this one. Personally, I like to think of sensors, relays, PLC's, HMI's, valves, blah blah blah as just tools in the automation world. Just like any other job, you use the right tool for the right job.


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## Mcswain (Dec 25, 2016)

O.K. Got the logic for it and wired up tonight. I will get a video when everyone gets there's done and we run it through.

Basically using a 120vac relay and a 24vdc relay and a motor timer. First panel utilizes start/stop/latch. Pin 11 goes to 8 of 120vac ice cube relay which feeds the PF through motor timer contact and also feeds 2nd ice cube relay which is 24vdc. When the 24vdc is activated it allows 120vac to activate motor timer contact connected to"A" lamp and the PF is operated through the timed contacts also for 4 seconds. Pin 4 of the PF is the neutral for the 24vdc relay. 1 and 2 pin are jumpers on PF. When the motor timer times out power is sent to the next panel through a set of motor contacts and the last panels last timer will be at the first panel before relay so it will automatically shut down. 
Was very easy once started in it. Just not enough seat time with the VD and external relays and such. Pretty simple.


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## Mcswain (Dec 25, 2016)

Here's ladder logic


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## Mcswain (Dec 25, 2016)

The red line is feeding the next panel.


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## Mcswain (Dec 25, 2016)

Worked like a charm!! Now instructor is going to put "bugs" in the panels!!! Troubleshooting time!!


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Mcswain said:


> Worked like a charm!! Now instructor is going to put "bugs" in the panels!!! Troubleshooting time!!


Sounds like the fun is about to begin.


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## Mcswain (Dec 25, 2016)

Wasn't too bad. He switched some of the 120v and 24v relays and messed with some neutrals. Biggest issue was he upped the drive switch source/sync. Nothing caught ? Lol


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## Mcswain (Dec 25, 2016)

Flipped the drive switch!


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## Mcswain (Dec 25, 2016)

Now it gets to come back and go in reverse with "b" light on for 4 seconds. Found an easier way to wire it up. Only issue was the 1,2,3, wiring and the 11 pin on AB had to be reconfigured and parameters had to be changed from 3 wire to 2 wire. Works like a charm but need to get more explanation on the wiring of the pins on AB are effected.


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