# New competitor, lack of workmanship



## NoBot (Oct 12, 2019)

A new electrician starting doing new homes in my area. Here’s an example of his work. This house is over $500K.
What do you think?


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

And that passed inspection? If so it says a lot about the inspection dept.


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

It doesn't take much to add a short 2x4 above the panel and make it look good.


----------



## NoBot (Oct 12, 2019)

Here’s more. This is a violation of the building code. Drilling holes in the center third of the floor joist


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Did you get called in to clean up the mess?


----------



## mofos be cray (Nov 14, 2016)

NoBot said:


> Here’s more. This is a violation of the building code. Drilling holes in the center third of the floor joist
> View attachment 156030


I don't see how that would be a violation. Center of the joist is the place to drill.
Otherwise you are removing tension or compression wood.


----------



## NoBot (Oct 12, 2019)

99cents said:


> Did you get called in to clean up the mess?


No I was working in the area so I stopped in. No one was there.


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

I believe small holes like that are allowed in the center. You can't have notches in the center span


----------



## ohm it hertz (Dec 2, 2020)

lol. Wow.


----------



## Whidbey (Aug 17, 2013)

I would expect nothing less from Pennsylvania. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## wiz1997 (Mar 30, 2021)

Where are the conductors feeding the panel?


----------



## Viggmundir (Sep 13, 2019)

On a side note, your plumbers down there do new construction in copper??? Especially with copper prices these days.... Everything where I am is done in PEX, except the waste water heat recovery coil is copper.

Otherwise that is sloppy electrical.


----------



## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

While I don't do residential, I would have put up a piece of plywood/aspenite for a backboard and used a couple short pieces of pvc conduit straight up to clean up the mess.


----------



## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

NoBot said:


> A new electrician starting doing new homes in my area. Here’s an example of his work. This house is over $500K.
> What do you think?
> View attachment 156029


For those of us that use EMT for everything, this looks like any rope job to us. Don't get so huffy over it.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

I’m thinking it’s temporary until they frame the basement walls.


----------



## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

That panel looks awful!


----------



## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

If that's your competition, it doesn't look like you have much to worry about.


----------



## MrThrills (Jan 7, 2019)

Southeast Power said:


> For those of us that use EMT for everything, this looks like any rope job to us. Don't get so huffy over it.


Look at this smug weenie: coming into the resi board and acting high and mighty about pipe.
Planning and workmanship goes into running cable, just like any other part of our trade. It's easy to tell the difference between an electrician that didn't care and one that had quality in mind.
OP should tell the owner of the building that they deserved better work for their money. A hack job is always a rip off, even when it's free.


----------



## HAND (Jul 15, 2010)

Looks ok to me, I used to do that then the master guy would come in after me and straightened and pretty everything up. So much so that I didn't recognize the job when he was through. Made my life easier. The master guy had a help guy...that son..That needs to get going like that so the GC doesn't blow his top.

Edit: careful with that competition bud


----------



## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

MrThrills said:


> Look at this smug weenie: coming into the resi board and acting high and mighty about pipe.
> Planning and workmanship goes into running cable, just like any other part of our trade. It's easy to tell the difference between an electrician that didn't care and one that had quality in mind.
> OP should tell the owner of the building that they deserved better work for their money. A hack job is always a rip off, even when it's free.


Ill show myself out.
But, in my defence, we have to plan our cables too. There is about 2000' of 500s on this job.








Very little of it in conduit.


----------



## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

Southeast Power said:


> Ill show myself out.
> But, in my defence, we have to plan our cables too. There is about 2000' of 500s on this job.
> View attachment 156045
> 
> Very little of it in conduit.


Before you leave too mad, what’s with the phase swap? Looks like A and B are transposed.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Southeast Power said:


> Ill show myself out.
> But, in my defence, we have to plan our cables too. There is about 2000' of 500s on this job.
> View attachment 156045
> 
> Very little of it in conduit.


Pbffffffst... Needs NoAlox.


----------



## wiz1997 (Mar 30, 2021)

wiz1997 said:


> Where are the conductors feeding the panel?


Again I'll ask the OP......
Where are the conductors feeding the panel.
We are not getting the whole story.
I too believe this is temporary until the walls are framed.


----------



## farmantenna (Nov 22, 2012)

I initially thought this post was a hoax but I discovered that PA doesn't require a electrical license so this is installation is expected.


----------



## wiz1997 (Mar 30, 2021)

farmantenna said:


> I initially thought this post was a hoax but I discovered that PA doesn't require a electrical license so this is installation is expected.


I suggest you work on your Internet search skills.






Pennsylvania Electrician License: Everything You Need to Know | Housecall Pro


Learn how to get a electrician license in Pennsylvania and start your own electrician business.




www.housecallpro.com




.


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Southeast Power said:


> Ill show myself out.
> But, in my defence, we have to plan our cables too. There is about 2000' of 500s on this job.
> View attachment 156045
> 
> Very little of it in conduit.


In defense of the sloppy residential job, the guy is probably only getting 14,000.00 to wire the house and the builder / GC is still beating him up. While your jobs go into the millions$$$. You have better trained and skilled workers. I have seen electricians bend 4" pipe by eye and it looks perfect but when they had to wire a simple house, they were out of their league.

I remember reading about oxide inhibiting compound last month. Please, I say this in jest.


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

This is one job that I lost the first stage. The floor joist for about 20 recessed light were cut out on 14 foot spans of 2 X 8. The basement ceiling looks great until







you start to lift up the ceiling tiles.


----------



## Bourbon County (Aug 19, 2020)

No question it's shoddy looking work, but there's only 1 code violation I can see. Per 334.30 the cables aren't supported within 12 in of the panel. The old "neat and workmanlike manner" clause has been in the code unchanged since the first version, so I hear. That clause is extremely subjective and I don't think I've ever heard of it being applied.

That house must run everything off of natural gas, I only see 1 10ga cable and 1 that might be a 6 or 8ga. Another observation is what self respecting electrician would allow his/her work to upstaged by the plumber?


----------



## splatz (May 23, 2015)

wiz1997 said:


> I suggest you work on your Internet search skills.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


But be selective with what you turn up when you search, Pennsylvania has no state electrical license. 









Contractor Licensing







www.dli.pa.gov


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

kb1jb1 said:


> This is one job that I lost the first stage. The floor joist for about 20 recessed light were cut out on 14 foot spans of 2 X 8. The basement ceiling looks great until
> View attachment 156054
> you start to lift up the ceiling tiles.
> View attachment 156054


Who would put cans in a T-bar ceiling? The 80’s are over.


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

99cents said:


> Who would put cans in a T-bar ceiling? The 80’s are over.


Thats what I said. And they are ICAT cans. If he used rings and trims then he would not have to cut out the joist.


----------



## wiz1997 (Mar 30, 2021)

splatz said:


> But be selective with what you turn up when you search, Pennsylvania has no state electrical license.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


OK.. it was late.
The article implied the State of Pennsylvania required electricians to be licensed, but not a State issued license.
Had to read much further down in the article.
At one time Texas did the same.
The State required a license, but it was done at the city level.
Problem was every city test was different and you needed a license for each city you( worked in.
I had three licenses at once, which cost money.
The State decided to take over the testing and licensing to create a more standard all a round knowledge test.
So an electrician out in the sticks had to know the same thing as the city dwellers and visa-versa.


----------



## getting old (Mar 26, 2021)

Idk, seems like 90% of people are hacks, not excluding electricians. People like that come and go, I wouldn't worry about him being your competition for long. Do the best you can, be neat where others wouldn't, and people will notice. Make a name for yourself based on the quality of your work, and you won't have to worry if your prices are too high.
And those saying that the guy in the pic is waiting for walls to be built, why would there be wires in both sides in a 14.25" wide panel? I don't think he plains on making it look any better.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

460 Delta said:


> Before you leave too mad, what’s with the phase swap? Looks like A and B are transposed.


Good catch.
Not to hijack the thread but. The building is CCW.
We wanted to keep the utility and the generator CW, the fire pump ATS only likes CW.
It was just easy to change the load side of the ATS to CCW to feed the existing panelboards.


----------



## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

kb1jb1 said:


> In defense of the sloppy residential job, the guy is probably only getting 14,000.00 to wire the house and the builder / GC is still beating him up. While your jobs go into the millions$$$. You have better trained and skilled workers. I have seen electricians bend 4" pipe by eye and it looks perfect but when they had to wire a simple house, they were out of their league.
> 
> I remember reading about oxide inhibiting compound last month. Please, I say this in jest.


I would not be able to pass a residential inspection. There are rules for every square inch of a house, inside and out. Way to many for someone's first rodeo.
And,
BTW, very few of our projects are over 100k.


----------



## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

Southeast Power said:


> Good catch.
> Not to hijack the thread but. The building is CCW.
> We wanted to keep the utility and the generator CW, the fire pump ATS only likes CW.
> It was just easy to change the load side of the ATS to CCW to feed the existing panelboards.


How does a building end up C-B-A? Just a happenstance I suppose.
In R-mix you never know what you’re going to find, most of the stuff should be in Gems of the trade.
When I find a C-B-A plant I mark it as such, but why I don’t know, because I’m the only one that it means anything to.


----------



## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

460 Delta said:


> How does a building end up C-B-A? Just a happenstance I suppose.
> In R-mix you never know what you’re going to find, most of the stuff should be in Gems of the trade.
> When I find a C-B-A plant I mark it as such, but why I don’t know, because I’m the only one that it means anything to.


We typically intercept a buildings electric service.
Part of our pre-work is to identify rotation of the mains.
Its somewhat of a rare find to have a building that has mixed rotation but, they are out there.
The existing job was Brown, Orange, purple on one of the main panelboards, Brown Purple yellow, on another. And Brown. Orange, Yellow on the newest renovation.
The fire pump was also CCW and passed through a transformer for a 208 60hp motor.
They passed the conductors through the nipples in the wall of the vault and the POCO made them up CCW.


----------



## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

mofos be cray said:


> I don't see how that would be a violation. Center of the joist is the place to drill.
> Otherwise you are removing tension or compression wood.


----------



## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

Easy said:


> View attachment 156110


Mostly the issue is when you drill the center 1/3 of a joist. The ends are not a problem.


----------



## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

I'm not positive but the panel looks out of level if you reference it to the top plate. It could just be that the camera was tilted but needless to say it's a mess. If the wall was going to be framed out why bundle the cables. I have noticed that many times electricians use PVC instead of EMT to sleeve NM cable is that because the ID is more on PVC?
Inside diameter of 1” schedule 40 PVC is *1.315* in Inside diameter of 1” EMT is *1.16* in


----------



## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

Easy said:


> I'm not positive but the panel looks out of level if you reference it to the top plate. It could just be that the camera was tilted but needless to say it's a mess. If the wall was going to be framed out why bundle the cables. I have noticed that many times electricians use PVC instead of EMT to sleeve NM cable is that because the ID is more on PVC?
> Inside diameter of 1” schedule 40 PVC is *1.315* in Inside diameter of 1” EMT is *1.16* in


I think it's just because PVC is more common in residential, it's usually around, easy to work with, non conductive so no need to use bonding bushings if sleeving the GEC.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

I’m still thinking it’s incomplete. No plywood, no sticker (if there was, I’m sure it would have been in a conspicuous place), no basement framing, no service conductors and obvious code infractions. Maybe the guy had some time remaining near the end of the day and decided to cut some circuits into the panel. It won’t get stolen if it’s half assed installed.


----------



## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

I mostly agree, since we haven't been told where the service conductors are, but someone zip tied all the romex together in a half a**ed attempt to dress it up.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

yankeejoe1141 said:


> I mostly agree, since we haven't been told where the service conductors are, but someone zip tied all the romex together in a half a**ed attempt to dress it up.


I would too, even though it’s temporary. Besides that, the accused isn’t here to defend himself. I wonder what his side of the story is?


----------



## mofos be cray (Nov 14, 2016)

Easy said:


> View attachment 156110





460 Delta said:


> Mostly the issue is when you drill the center 1/3 of a joist. The ends are not a problem.


















This is how I view it. No notches in center third as the force is greatest on the edges, being under tension and compression respectively. But wood in the center is effectively under no load as the tension and compression loads are balanced. So holes are ok. Engineered trusses work (partly) on this principle which is why the webbing between the top and bottom cords seems so insubstantial.


----------



## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

99cents said:


> I would too, even though it’s temporary. Besides that, the accused isn’t here to defend himself. I wonder what his side of the story is?


I wouldn’t. Time is so precious in resi I wouldn’t want to spend it doing something I have to take apart and do right in the future. I understand under some situations you have to but in an unoccupied house this isn’t one of them.

You’re right, would be nice if we could hear from the accused.


----------



## SummitElectric1 (Aug 8, 2016)

yankeejoe1141 said:


> I wouldn’t. *Time is so precious in resi I wouldn’t want to spend it doing something I have to take apart and do right in the future*. I understand under some situations you have to but in an unoccupied house this isn’t one of them.
> 
> You’re right, would be nice if we could hear from the accused.


One of the rules that I've always operated by is: "If you don't have time to do it RIGHT you don't have time to do it TWICE"


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Why would he have to do things twice? There is enough slack in the wiring to make it pretty once the wall is built. There’s always a gap between the stud wall and the foundation wall to move the cable around. I think it’s just this guy’s way of doing things. It’s how it looks on final that counts.


----------



## kb3ffh (Apr 25, 2017)

NoBot said:


> A new electrician starting doing new homes in my area. Here’s an example of his work. This house is over $500K.
> What do you think?
> View attachment 156029


Panel can’t be mounted against concrete.


----------



## Joe G (May 13, 2021)

NoBot said:


> A new electrician starting doing new homes in my area. Here’s an example of his work. This house is over $500K.
> What do you think?
> View attachment 156029


If that is a rescessed (not flush) cover, they may or could be going to stud that wall out and cover all the wiring dude......


----------



## oldwirepuller (Dec 12, 2015)

mofos be cray said:


> I don't see how that would be a violation. Center of the joist is the place to drill.
> Otherwise you are removing tension or compression wood.


Strange building code. Center of the joist mid way between spans is the part of joist carrying the least amount of weight.


----------



## oldwirepuller (Dec 12, 2015)

NoBot said:


> No I was working in the area so I stopped in. No one was there.


So you had nose problems?
I had those problems myself a few times.


----------



## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

After looking at that picture again I doubt that wall is getting framed because he entered some of the romex on the left and right side, and wouldn't he have to drill the top plate and lace the wires through? If they told me the basement will be framed I’d run all the wires and leave them hanging till after the carpenters come through then I’d mount the panel.


----------



## dontreadthis (Jan 17, 2021)

Southeast Power said:


> Ill show myself out.
> But, in my defence, we have to plan our cables too. There is about 2000' of 500s on this job.
> View attachment 156045
> 
> Very little of it in conduit.


At the risk of pissing you off, I’m just going to go ahead and say it; phase conductors should not be bundled together for any significant distance like they are here in that trough. You can see up front, all the line 2’s are grouped together. Inductive reactance fail. That introduces the potential for overheating the conductors.


----------



## MASTER NATER (May 5, 2021)

Southeast Power said:


> Ill show myself out.
> But, in my defence, we have to plan our cables too. There is about 2000' of 500s on this job.
> View attachment 156045
> 
> Very little of it in conduit.


while your bundling is pretty, it is in violation of 376.20. it looks like you ran them in your service entrance conduits grouped correctly. but by bundling this way, you're setting yourself up for some pretty large magnetic potentials by bundling all conductors of the same phase together. 

376.20 - Conductors Connected in Parallel. - Where single conductor cables comprising each phase, neutral, or grounded conductor of an alternating-current circuit are connected in parallel as permitted in 310.10(G), the conductors shall be installed in groups consisting of not more than one conductor per phase, neutral, or grounded conductor. Informational note: The purpose of having all parallel condctor sets withing the same group is to prevent current impbalance in the paraleledled condoctors due to inductive reactance.


----------



## Chucky (Apr 19, 2018)

mofos be cray said:


> I don't see how that would be a violation. Center of the joist is the place to drill.
> Otherwise you are removing tension or compression wood.



1 1/4 inches from the edge. 1-1/4 Per NEC® 300.4(A)(1) In exposed locations where a cable is run through bored holes in studs, the edge of the hole shall be at least 1 1/4 in. from the nearest edge of the stud.


----------



## wiz1997 (Mar 30, 2021)

kb3ffh said:


> Panel can’t be mounted against concrete.


Obviously joking.


----------



## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

dontreadthis said:


> At the risk of pissing you off, I’m just going to go ahead and say it; phase conductors should not be bundled together for any significant distance like they are here in that trough. You can see up front, all the line 2’s are grouped together. Inductive reactance fail. That introduces the potential for overheating the conductors.





MASTER NATER said:


> while your bundling is pretty, it is in violation of 376.20. it looks like you ran them in your service entrance conduits grouped correctly. but by bundling this way, you're setting yourself up for some pretty large magnetic potentials by bundling all conductors of the same phase together.
> 
> 376.20 - Conductors Connected in Parallel. - Where single conductor cables comprising each phase, neutral, or grounded conductor of an alternating-current circuit are connected in parallel as permitted in 310.10(G), the conductors shall be installed in groups consisting of not more than one conductor per phase, neutral, or grounded conductor. Informational note: The purpose of having all parallel condctor sets withing the same group is to prevent current impbalance in the paraleledled condoctors due to inductive reactance.


You guys can expect an earful from Southeast when he gets here.


----------



## mofos be cray (Nov 14, 2016)

I was agreeing, the center of the joist in the middle of the span can be drilled. But it cannot be notched because then you are removing either tension or compression wood which is the main structural part.
In the center all forces sum to zero


----------



## rporter1953 (Sep 6, 2018)

NoBot said:


> A new electrician starting doing new homes in my area. Here’s an example of his work. This house is over $500K.
> What do you think?
> View attachment 156029


----------



## Spencerp3 (Apr 22, 2021)

NoBot said:


> A new electrician starting doing new homes in my area. Here’s an example of his work. This house is over $500K.
> What do you think?
> View attachment 156029





NoBot said:


> A new electrician starting doing new homes in my area. Here’s an example of his work. This house is over $500K.
> What do you think?
> View attachment 156029


I would worry about my companies workmanship and time management. Did this company out bid you? Did he work for you at some point? 
If the quality of his work is so poor it will work it self out. He will miss deadlines, fail inspections, snd hold up jobs. Sooner or later the proof will show in the pudding.


----------



## MikeWhitfield (Aug 1, 2011)

splatz said:


> But be selective with what you turn up when you search, Pennsylvania has no state electrical license.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So literally anyone can wire your house but only the State can be trusted to sell liquor? Yeah, that's . . . not insane at all.


----------



## JourneymanJohn (Jan 22, 2011)

NoBot said:


> A new electrician starting doing new homes in my area. Here’s an example of his work. This house is over $500K.
> What do you think?
> View attachment 156029


Funny.


----------



## HertzHound (Jan 22, 2019)

dontreadthis said:


> At the risk of pissing you off, I’m just going to go ahead and say it; phase conductors should not be bundled together for any significant distance like they are here in that trough. You can see up front, all the line 2’s are grouped together. Inductive reactance fail. That introduces the potential for overheating the conductors.





MASTER NATER said:


> while your bundling is pretty, it is in violation of 376.20. it looks like you ran them in your service entrance conduits grouped correctly. but by bundling this way, you're setting yourself up for some pretty large magnetic potentials by bundling all conductors of the same phase together.
> 
> 376.20 - Conductors Connected in Parallel. - Where single conductor cables comprising each phase, neutral, or grounded conductor of an alternating-current circuit are connected in parallel as permitted in 310.10(G), the conductors shall be installed in groups consisting of not more than one conductor per phase, neutral, or grounded conductor. Informational note: The purpose of having all parallel condctor sets withing the same group is to prevent current impbalance in the paraleledled condoctors due to inductive reactance.


So this was new for 2017 and oddly enough 300.3(B)(1) exception still exists? So underground for hundreds of feet you can isolate each phase in separate conduits as long as you follow 300.20(B). Also 300.3(B)(3) is allowed as long as 300.20(B) is followed. It looks like they also added a ".20" to auxiliary gutters (366.20). They should probably delete that one since Auxiliary gutters are limited to 30'. How bad could it be in 30'? At best the conductors are never more than 12" apart.


----------



## MikeWhitfield (Aug 1, 2011)

HertzHound said:


> So this was new for 2017 and oddly enough 300.3(B)(1) exception still exists? So underground for hundreds of feet you can isolate each phase in separate conduits as long as you follow 300.20(B). Also 300.3(B)(3) is allowed as long as 300.20(B) is followed. It looks like they also added a ".20" to auxiliary gutters (366.20). They should probably delete that one since Auxiliary gutters are limited to 30'. How bad could it be in 30'? At best the conductors are never more than 12" apart.


Been almost thirty years ago but I once did that (grouped by phase) with site lighting on a large strip mall, by accident rather than by design. The conduits were maybe 2" and maybe 24" long. A wise electrician showed me why that's a bad idea - at night those three conduits always felt slightly warm to the touch whereas all the other conduits (with a random mixture of phases) felt slightly cool to the touch. There's more inductive coupling than one would assume. (Well . . . more than this one assumed anyway. YMMV.)


----------



## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

99cents said:


> Who would put cans in a T-bar ceiling? The 80’s are over.


The 80’s may be over, but I wish I could go back there. Big hair, shoulder pads and bright pastels.







Oh yeah, Ronnie was President also. Good times.


----------



## humbled1 (Dec 3, 2013)

Southeast Power said:


> Ill show myself out.
> But, in my defence, we have to plan our cables too. There is about 2000' of 500s on this job.
> View attachment 156045
> 
> Very little of it in conduit.


500s...what are those?...


----------



## dontreadthis (Jan 17, 2021)

500 kcmil conductors. It’s a size.


----------

