# 480v is safer than 120v



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Ten milliamps of current can fillibrate the heart. 480 volts can overcome the skin resistance by 4 times what 120 volts can. That is your answer.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

460 Delta said:


> I had “training” a while back and the instructor stated that 480 was safer than 120 because 480 will throw you off and 120 will make you hang on.
> I stated that was ludicrous, volts lead amps and it was far more dangerous. He would not be swayed in his thinking at all, I told him I’d been bit numerous times with 120 but a 480 hit made me want to just cry but it hurt too badly. We finally agreed to disagree and the lesson went forward.
> Who else has heard this nonsense?


This "instructor" should go back to plumbing.

120 jolts threw me across a bedroom when I was an apprentice.


----------



## oliquir (Jan 13, 2011)

DC is a lot more dangerous since you will not be able to move


----------



## gpop (May 14, 2018)

He probably meant 277v rather than 480v.

I dont think that electricity throws anyone. Your muscles spassims which make it feel like you was thrown. The higher the voltage the harder the spassims.

At 25kv the spassim is meant to be strong enoght that the large muscles in the lower back can break your spine.

With out a case studie say between the uk (240 to ground) and the usa counting the number of people found stuck to a wire verses not stuck its hard to say who is write or wrong.

Been hit many times as a kid by 240 to ground and ive always been thrown so i presume 277 would be about the same.


----------



## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

tell him 480 only kicks you off after it is done cooking you (or blowing something apart).

fact is, anything that can kill you is dangerous. Is a tidal wave more dangerous than an atomic bomb ? Does the question even make sense ?


----------



## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

460 Delta said:


> I had “training” a while back and the instructor stated that 480 was safer than 120 because 480 will throw you off and 120 will make you hang on.
> I stated that was ludicrous, volts lead amps and it was far more dangerous. He would not be swayed in his thinking at all, I told him I’d been bit numerous times with 120 but a 480 hit made me want to just cry but it hurt too badly. We finally agreed to disagree and the lesson went forward.
> Who else has heard this nonsense?


I will be little harsh on this one but bullcrap !!

I got hit with 600 volts *DC* before and it will actually throw ya across the room. I was throwen about 10 meters and crack my collarbone and shoulder plate is cracked and I have to live with that pain for years. 

Now for 120 volts .,, that will get ya depending on your body condtion is.

I live the area where we have 240 volts line to netural connections system and yes you will get hit pretty hard if not aware of it and same thing with 277 volts.

I am sure other guys will post simuair answer what I say.


----------



## Tonedeaf (Nov 26, 2012)

Your instructor is an idiot. 

You really shouldn't be working on anything hot.....but I know we all do.....you get too comfortable and forget how dangerous electric is until you have an accident and get the respect back.

Yeah you can die from defib from any voltage....but you more likely die from electrical burns from an arc flash as an electrician. You should be aware of fault current available anytime you work around live electric and use PPE and proper procedures.


----------



## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

oliquir said:


> DC is a lot more dangerous since you will not be able to move


False, cite your source.


----------



## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

460 Delta said:


> I had “training” a while back and the instructor stated that 480 was safer than 120 because 480 will throw you off and 120 will make you hang on.
> I stated that was ludicrous, volts lead amps and it was far more dangerous. He would not be swayed in his thinking at all, I told him I’d been bit numerous times with 120 but a 480 hit made me want to just cry but it hurt too badly. We finally agreed to disagree and the lesson went forward.
> Who else has heard this nonsense?


He is full of it. He has no business training anyone. I did electrical safety training for a decade and heard so many different insane "truths" from my students, most of which they learned from some other training or a senior electrician that trained them. 


IEC 479-1 (and IEEE std 80 to some extent) compile all of the studies done over the last 100 years on the effects of electricity on the human body, it's not opinion, it's science. No one should be training anyone on electrical safety without in depth knowledge of these studies.


----------



## Signal1 (Feb 10, 2016)

460 Delta said:


> I had “training” a while back and the instructor stated that 480 was safer than 120 because 480 will throw you off and 120 will make you hang on.
> I stated that was ludicrous, volts lead amps and it was far more dangerous. He would not be swayed in his thinking at all, I told him I’d been bit numerous times with 120 but a 480 hit made me want to just cry but it hurt too badly. We finally agreed to disagree and the lesson went forward.
> Who else has heard this nonsense?


Ask him to prove it.


----------



## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

It is, however, safe to say that there are more electrical injuries from 120v circuits vs 480v circuits by a large margin. Due, not doubt, to the prevalence of 120v circuits.


----------



## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

*Frog experiment*

The way I was taught was the old frog experiment. Take a fresh cut off frog leg and apply DC to it and the mussel will either contract or expand. Reverse the voltage and it will do the other. This is why DC will either grab and hold you your push you away. Now AC will make the mussels do it 60 time a second which can cause you to not be able to open your hand.
As for the voltage it is force higher voltage more force that is why you can get thrown because the voltage causes your mussels to contract and expand faster than you can.


Cowboy


----------



## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> It is, however, safe to say that there are more electrical injuries from 120v circuits vs 480v circuits by a large margin. Due, not doubt, to the prevalence of 120v circuits.


and homeowners working on powered circuits.


----------



## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

frenchelectrican said:


> I will be little harsh on this one but bullcrap !!
> 
> I got hit with 600 volts *DC* before and it will actually throw ya across the room. I was throwen about 10 meters and crack my collarbone and shoulder plate is cracked and I have to live with that pain for years.
> 
> ...


Until lately my 480 experience was all on Delta systems some floating but the one that got me hardest was a B corner ground, it hurt me all over.
My point was that there is a lot of bad info taught and we as a group are required [in my perfect world] to shoot it down.
Why is it that those who are sideways in reality unimpressed by the truth?


----------



## gpop (May 14, 2018)

Reword the question to


At which voltage would you expect to get stuck to and which voltage would you expect to be thrown off. The word safer should not have been used as neither is really safe.


110v is sticky and ive read posts from people on here that claim that they have had a close call because they couldn't let go of something. No idea if a higher voltage would have forced them to break free in the same circumstances or not.

I was always taught never to ground myself when working live (live is anything that's not grounded). 
I was also taught to always strike a wire on the back of the hand before twisting the strands together even if im 100% sure its off.
The reason I was taught this way is just in case something happens the wire to the back of the hand will make your hand close where gripping the wire between 2 fingers may mean getting stuck and being unable to let go.


----------



## Service Call (Jul 9, 2011)

Zog said:


> False, cite your source.




I don’t know. 

A friend of mine had his gold wedding ring melted to the bone of his finger when the vice grips he was holding, on the positive side of a 12 volt car battery, and his ring, hit the body of the car. It was extremely quick. 

A surgeon had to remove it. 

I’ve yet to try that with 12 volts AC. For some reason I don’t think it would be as bad. But I don’t have a 400 cca AC supply either. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## catsparky1 (Sep 24, 2013)

120 tingles and hurt
480 blew the tip of my pinky off .

Does that help ?

If you aint thinking It all will KILL YOU .

Something like 12 or so die a year from putting a nine volt battery on the tongue . I heard that a really long time ago like in the 70s and can't confirm if it is true .


----------



## quarky2001 (May 29, 2014)

I've heard this nonsense before. The only thing that will "throw" anyone around is an arc blast. As for the other voltages, it completely depends on the path the energy takes through your body, because that affects which muscles contract because of the current. A 120v shock from one hand to the other could make you throw *yourself* backwards, with your biceps, pectorals, and other muscles, while a 480 (or 13.8 kV for that matter) shock from one side of your finger to the other side of the same finger could just give you a hell of a burn.

I've also heard people say the 600V just throws you off while 480V makes you scream/moan/whatever. It's just a bunch of people making generalizations based on their own personal experiences.


----------



## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

I like to tell people that it MIGHT somehow affect the quality of your afterlife, but you are still dead. So far only one guy has returned from the dead and that happened long before we had electrical systems, so we don’t really know. 

This myth has been circulating for years. I think it’s partially because in the olden days with ungrounded delta systems, which were primarily 480V, the voltage you actually experience when coming in contact with one line is basically a floating capacitive voltage. So sometimes people would make contact and not get hurt much, but it was HIGHLY circumstantial. 

The other factor leading to this myth in my opinion is that statistically, there are far far more electrical deaths each year from 120VAC in North America than there are from 480VAC. But that is easily attributable to the fact that there are far far far more people INTERACTING with 120VAC than with 480VAC, and most 480 interactions will take place in industrial settings where there are (ostensibly) safety protocols in place, as opposed to the proverbial “radio falling into the bathtub” residential situation.

I’ve been “hit” by 120VAC, 277VAC and 600VDC. For sure the DC hurt more. But I don’t recall being “locked up” on any of them. I have only witnessed one electrocution, a DC drive technician killed when he came into contact with the DC bus. We had to push him off with a 2x4, but I can’t say if it was because he was locked up on it, or just unconscious already. He was alive when we got him off, but he didn’t make it once they got him to the hospital. Too much internal damage.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

My first journeyman believed 120V would make you hang on. He would work on live circuits and have me stand back with a 2 X 4. His instructions were to hit him hard if he got jolted.


----------



## tjb (Feb 12, 2014)

From my admittedly nascent knowledge, it’s an amperage threshold that causes your muscles to latch on, not a voltage threshold. So in theory any voltage could cause you to latch on, given sufficient amperage. Voltage is really only potential anyway. Linemen equalize their bodies to different voltages all the time. 

Irrespective of all that, I’ve heard stories of folks who’ve got bit by whatever voltage - even 120 - who died the next day. The shock threw their sinus rhythm off just enough to cause a heart attack even a day later. They got bit, and felt “off” all day. Their heart couldn’t get back in normal rhythm, and ended up seizing. Or something.


----------



## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

I don't want to get bit by any of it, so I spend no time pondering on the effect of any given voltage.

Non-electricians have this strange affinity for asking electricians, "What's the most you've ever been shocked by"? Perhaps you've had the same question asked of you a time or ten. I generally reply, "Tell me first about the time you could have died and maybe I'll tell you my story". They generally take the hint. I don't take having gotten shocked at XYZ voltage as a point of pride, and definitely don't talk about it. I normally tune out when other electricians get involved in dic measuring contests about voltages they've been shocked by. If you've been stupid in the past, you're probably better off keeping quiet about it and maybe nobody will find out.


----------



## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

99cents said:


> My first journeyman believed 120V would make you hang on. He would work on live circuits and have me stand back with a 2 X 4. His instructions were to hit him hard if he got jolted.


In my Navy days the actual written procedure for live work (Which was almost always 480) was to have a rope tied around you with a safety guy holding it to pull you off if something happened.


----------



## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

tjb said:


> From my admittedly nascent knowledge, it’s an amperage threshold that causes your muscles to latch on, not a voltage threshold. So in theory any voltage could cause you to latch on, given sufficient amperage. Voltage is really only potential anyway. Linemen equalize their bodies to different voltages all the time. .



Very true, but it is the current passing though your body (which depends on many factors) not the current rating of the system you are working on, that is not a factor and a common misconception. 




tjb said:


> Irrespective of all that, I’ve heard stories of folks who’ve got bit by whatever voltage - even 120 - who died the next day. The shock threw their sinus rhythm off just enough to cause a heart attack even a day later. They got bit, and felt “off” all day. Their heart couldn’t get back in normal rhythm, and ended up seizing. Or something.



That's called "Diffuse electric injury" and it is a very dangerous thing. That is why you should always go to the hospital after a shock, quick EKG will tell them if there is something going on or not.


----------



## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

macmikeman said:


> Ten milliamps of current can fillibrate the heart. 480 volts can overcome the skin resistance by 4 times what 120 volts can. That is your answer.


False. 100 mA is the threshold, for AC at 60 Hz, and time matters too. Substations are set up around 100 mA. The feeling threshold is down around 1-3 mA. Pain starting around 10 mA. Burning/damage at 1 A. With DC it's mostly the pain when it let's go, no fibrillation, or burning. Charles Dalziel did most of the testing on this. The skin resistance minimum is around 1000 ohms (wet contact). Internal resistances are only a couple hundred ohms. Skin resistance drops with voltage but since that falls in the "doesn't matter" category, many people make the mistake of using the lower 600 ohm IEC threshold inappropriately. If the exposure is less than 8 milliseconds (half a cycle) it's less than 1 beat of the heart so no bad effects. After 5 seconds if fibrillation doesn't happen, it won't. Fibrillation depends on body weight too.

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk


----------



## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

Actually, 480v. will blow holes in your body, remove sections of flesh, and give you one hellofa sunburn. 120v. don't.


----------



## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

joebanana said:


> Actually, 480v. will blow holes in your body, remove sections of flesh, and give you one hellofa sunburn. 120v. don't.


480 V / 1000 ohms = 0.48 A of current. Not saying that the HEAT from being close to a nearby arc can't cause some extremely serious damage but direct electrocution though it might make a pretty good mess isn't going to do much. Think about what a 0.5 A fault looks like.

Actually heard something similar to the "120/480" myth in school too but it was slightly different. That one claimed that even at 120 V it's all going to stop your heart but that there's enough force at 1000 V+ that when it throws you off, the smack hitting the ground has a better chance of restarting your heart...basically self-CPR so there's a better chance of coming back from it! Not that again...statistically, even fewer folks work at medium voltage.


----------



## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

paulengr said:


> 480 V / 1000 ohms = 0.48 A of current. Not saying that the HEAT from being close to a nearby arc can't cause some extremely serious damage but direct electrocution though it might make a pretty good mess isn't going to do much. Think about what a 0.5 A fault looks like.
> 
> Actually heard something similar to the "120/480" myth in school too but it was slightly different. That one claimed that even at 120 V it's all going to stop your heart but that there's enough force at 1000 V+ that when it throws you off, the smack hitting the ground has a better chance of restarting your heart...basically self-CPR so there's a better chance of coming back from it! Not that again...statistically, even fewer folks work at medium voltage.


I worked with a guy that got hung up between 277v. and a T-bar wire, it welded a hole in his hand and splattered copper up his arm (sunburn), plus knocked him off the ladder. Luckily he landed on a desk.
Called him "Smokie" from then on.


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

I am very sad to say with 47 years in the trade and some old school BAD HABITS, I have been hit by, 120, 208, 277, 480 (OMG the worst) 540 VDC (did I say 480 VAC hurt 540 VDC is a stinker) and had a battery blow up and burn both hands.

What we do can be dangerous if we develop bad habits, additionally, if you work safe, use LOTO, use proper PPE and the rules that are in place for hot work you can avoid having the nasty experience of that ungodly tingle that scares you if there is a brain in your head.

Sadly it was reported out local lost an electrician to electrocution this week.


----------



## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

Shunk, I’m not bragging about taking a hit off a 480 Delta trust me, I was hurt and embarrassed to say the least, my point to that joker was 480 has 4X the pressure and therefore at least 4X more lethality. 
I merely related past experience with 120 hurt 480 hurt a lot more without boasting about my manliness at all. 
I try to keep people from stepping on the same land mines that I have in the past, and if it is a dumb stunt I’ve done as a illustration, well I’ll take the shame so no one else has to find out for their self. 
A smart man learns from their mistakes, a wise man learns from someone else’s mistakes.


----------



## gpop (May 14, 2018)

Worst shocks I have ever received was from welding and cutting equipment.

High freq a/c snap start on a tig will make you dance and a arc assisted start on a plasma cutter was the same as getting hit with a stun gun. Couldn't move just fell forward and face planted. 


Funny that I have to wear ppe to touch wires over 60v but a welder doesn't require rubber gloves.


----------



## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

460 Delta said:


> I had “training” a while back and the instructor stated that 480 was safer than 120 because 480 will throw you off and 120 will make you hang on.
> I stated that was ludicrous, volts lead amps and it was far more dangerous. He would not be swayed in his thinking at all, I told him I’d been bit numerous times with 120 but a 480 hit made me want to just cry but it hurt too badly. We finally agreed to disagree and the lesson went forward.
> Who else has heard this nonsense?


i think i had arc flash refresher by your trainers brother a couple of months ago. LOL. he didn't say same thing but he said the the available fault current from is the "k number on the fuse" (interrupting rating) LOL. and people say you-tube teaches people wrong (it sometimes does, but so does traditional education). how are we all not dead?


----------



## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

Tonedeaf said:


> Your instructor is an idiot.
> 
> You really shouldn't be working on anything hot.....but I know we all do.....you get too comfortable and forget how dangerous electric is until you have an accident and get the respect back.
> 
> Yeah you can die from defib from any voltage....but you more likely die from electrical burns from an arc flash as an electrician. You should be aware of fault current available anytime you work around live electric and use PPE and proper procedures.


not all of us do, there are some local unions that have a zero tolerance policy and nobody seams to worm on it.


----------



## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

99cents said:


> My first journeyman believed 120V would make you hang on. He would work on live circuits and have me stand back with a 2 X 4. His instructions were to hit him hard if he got jolted.


Same with my first journeyman. It was in their code books actually.

Old Canadian code books had instructions and illustrations on resuscitation in Appendix A. They removed them in the 70’s. They start with “ follow these instructions even if the victim appears dead” :surprise:

In the instructions they say to first free the victim from the current quickly using rubber gloves, clothing, wood, rope etc. If necessary shut off current. :vs_whistle:

I will post a picture of an old Appendix A later when I get home.


----------



## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

gpop said:


> Worst shocks I have ever received was from welding and cutting equipment.
> 
> High freq a/c snap start on a tig will make you dance and a arc assisted start on a plasma cutter was the same as getting hit with a stun gun. Couldn't move just fell forward and face planted.
> 
> ...


One of the weirdest things I ever witnessed involved a TIG welder. The welder (guy) was working on a table, then went over to the stainless steel machine we were working on, then back to the table. After going back, he couldn't strike an arc. So he turned up the dial and tried again, repeating that a couple of times. One of our co-workers walked in between the table and the machine, he had a tape measure on one hip and was pushing a steel cart. The cart rubbed on the welding table edge and an arc jumped off of the tape measure case to the machine, sending him into a spectacular jerking dance motion with this blue arc coming out of his hip! The welder had left his ground clamp on the machine, that's why he wasn't striking his arc at the table... The guy with the tape measure was always strutting around like a pimp telling us about his female conquests. He was OK after the shock, but we all had a good laugh about it and after that, he was a lot more humble.


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Worse shock I ever got was when I went right to the gate 34 to welcome home my girlfriend I lived with for 5 years and she wasn't on the plane. Or any plane for that matter.......... 







Moral of the story: Don't let your girlfriend go visit her mother.....


----------



## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

JRaef said:


> I like to tell people that it MIGHT somehow affect the quality of your afterlife, but you are still dead.* So far only one guy has returned from the dead and that happened long before we had electrical systems, so we don’t really know. *
> 
> This myth has been circulating for years. I think it’s partially because in the olden days with ungrounded delta systems, which were primarily 480V, the voltage you actually experience when coming in contact with one line is basically a floating capacitive voltage. So sometimes people would make contact and not get hurt much, but it was HIGHLY circumstantial.
> 
> ...


I don't think we should ignore there was in fact an 
electrical storm at the time of his temporary death:wink:


----------



## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

99cents said:


> My first journeyman believed 120V would make you hang on. He would work on live circuits and have me stand back with a 2 X 4. His instructions were to *hit him hard if he got jolted.*


*
*


:vs_OMG:Huh? I got 2 questions...

(1) Did he happen to specify if he wanted the hit to be vertically or 
horizontally?

(2) Be honest ... this question is for posterity...did ya ever just 
grab a 2x4 and hit em , then say..."well I thought you were 
getttin' electrocuted":vs_laugh:


----------



## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

lighterup said:


> [/B]
> 
> 
> :vs_OMG:Huh? I got 2 questions...
> ...


What's the surprise here?

There have been plenty of times where I've been in the situation where you don't know for sure what is wrong, whether or not even doing some normally perfectly safe action like opening a door is going to work or not, you have limited tools and resources for the situation, and usually there is a time constraint where action is needed right away before something even worse happens. So you do emergency planning, say a hail Mary, and go.

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk


----------



## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

What's his contact information?


460 Delta said:


> I had “training” a while back and the instructor stated that 480 was safer than 120 because 480 will throw you off and 120 will make you hang on.
> I stated that was ludicrous, volts lead amps and it was far more dangerous. He would not be swayed in his thinking at all, I told him I’d been bit numerous times with 120 but a 480 hit made me want to just cry but it hurt too badly. We finally agreed to disagree and the lesson went forward.
> Who else has heard this nonsense?


Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


----------



## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

I've been working quite a bit of 480 the last couple years, and if anything it has made me more careful around 120v. I'm down to getting hit with 120 about once a year or so, now. It's usually doing something stupid with a switch or receptacle. The last time was when I was 1 short on an order for floor flanges and inserts for floor boxes, so I wired up a receptacle, taped it up, and tucked it back into the floor box and put the concrete cap back on it until the flange and stuff came in. Well, when I went to install the receptacle into the flange the tape pulled down and I got a tingle. Why I didn't shut it off I have no idea. Probably sheer laziness.


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

So many people mistakenly say they were shocked with 480 volts when in fact it was 277 volts. Maybe there is some glory associated getting shocked by 480 instead of 277.


----------



## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

paulengr said:


> What's the surprise here?
> 
> There have been plenty of times where I've been in the situation where you don't know for sure what is wrong, whether or not even doing some normally perfectly safe action like opening a door is going to work or not, you have limited tools and resources for the situation, and usually there is a time constraint where action is needed right away before something even worse happens. So you do emergency planning, say a hail Mary, and go.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk


Standard Operating Procedure...2x4:vs_laugh:


----------



## tjb (Feb 12, 2014)

MTW said:


> So many people mistakenly say they were shocked with 480 volts when in fact it was 277 volts. Maybe there is some glory associated getting shocked by 480 instead of 277.




Good point.


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

MTW said:


> So many people mistakenly say they were shocked with 480 volts when in fact it was 277 volts. Maybe there is some glory associated with getting shocked by 480 instead of 277.


I have been hit by 277 and unfortunately 480 phase to phase twice.


----------



## gpop (May 14, 2018)

lighterup said:


> Standard Operating Procedure...2x4:vs_laugh:


 


Dang you guys must be old. We have a fiberglass insulated shepherds crook.


I love standing behind the guy going live line all dress in my ppe looking like the grim reaper hold a scythe singing the Freddy krugger nursery rhyme.



1 2 Freddy's coming for you...........It helps the live line guy relax...:vs_laugh:


----------

