# Underground service question



## was240 (May 12, 2011)

At the in-laws house, their meter is located in their garage. I plan on doing a panel upgrade to get rid of the failing wadsworth. I want put the meter on the exterior where it belongs. Currently the underground feeder entrance is in the garage, and i don't want the hassle of cutting up concrete and digging a trench. My question is, can i just 90 from the garage to the exterior? Or do i have to have the entrance cable on the exterior of the house?


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Ask the power company. They decide.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I don't see how this will be code compliant. The service entrance has to be as short as possible. 

Coming into the house, then back out to the meter, then back inside isn't as short as possible.


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## was240 (May 12, 2011)

HackWork said:


> I don't see how this will be code compliant. The service entrance has to be as short as possible.
> 
> Coming into the house, then back out to the meter, then back inside isn't as short as possible.


I agree. the meter is on the inside of an exterior wall. Currently, the height is approx 6.5feet to the center of the meter. I plan on dropping it to the 5ft mark. If anything, I will be making the connection shorter than it currently is. The distance from the new meter location to the panel would be less than 3 feet.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

was240 said:


> I agree. the meter is on the inside of an exterior wall. Currently, the height is approx 6.5feet to the center of the meter. I plan on dropping it to the 5ft mark. If anything, I will be making the connection shorter than it currently is. The distance from the new meter location to the panel would be less than 3 feet.


I see what you are saying, but the service entrance is still coming into the house unnecessarily, then going back outside, then coming back in.

I understand your situation and how it would be a pain to move the underground, but the code doesn't make concessions for harder installations.

Then you have the issues with the power company. Currently the service comes directly into the locked/sealed meter pan. What you propose would have unmetered power coming into the house through unlocked fittings, and then back out to the meter. I can't see the power company liking that idea.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Might not be such a big job to bust up some concrete with a sledge and dig a hole to pull the cable up the other side of the wall. Why would you need a trench?


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Why move the meter? Most utilities are going smart anyway.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

How about offsetting it to a flush mount socket? If the still even make them. If it is PVC(which it isn't) I would break up the concrete. 
Actually even if it is rigid I would still do that and dig it back a bit and switch over to pvc. Concrete is cheap and easy. Just sub it out and it woill probably cost you $300-$500 including the digging.
Not so glad you told them you would do it for free now are ya


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

99cents said:


> Why move the meter? Most utilities are going smart anyway.


Because that is the right thing to do. Those unfused conductors shouldn't be inside the house anyway.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> Why move the meter? Most utilities are going smart anyway.


Because power companies require them outside in any new installlation.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

sbrn33 said:


> Because that is the right thing to do. Those unfused conductors shouldn't be inside the house anyway.


I know but there are millions of structures out there with unfused conductors inside. Our rule just says as short as practicable.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> Because power companies require them outside in any new installlation.


So, in the US, you need to have an OCPD ahead of the conductors before they enter the structure?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> So, in the US, you need to have an OCPD ahead of the conductors before they enter the structure?


Nope, we are talking about meters here. I think you should go back to bed and sleep off last nights bender.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

99cents said:


> So, in the US, you need to have an OCPD ahead of the conductors before they enter the structure?


Not really, You definitely can from the meter to the closest location possible. Different AHJ's have different lenghts they will let pass. 
The problem here is that those are POCO conductors and they are not going to let them inside the residence.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

was240 said:


> At the in-laws house, their meter is located in their garage. I plan on doing a panel upgrade to get rid of the failing wadsworth. I want put the meter on the exterior where it belongs. Currently the underground feeder entrance is in the garage, and i don't want the hassle of cutting up concrete and digging a trench. My question is, can i just 90 from the garage to the exterior? Or do i have to have the entrance cable on the exterior of the house?


Can you put an LB on it. Is that the question?

If it were me, I would make the effort to dig it up on the outside and stub it up exactly where I wanted it.
If it somehow enters the garage first, I can't see why you can't LB out, it's not spliced or is a junction box.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Suncoast Power said:


> Can you put an LB on it. Is that the question?
> 
> If it were me, I would make the effort to dig it up on the outside and stub it up exactly where I wanted it.
> If it somehow enters the garage first, I can't see why you can't LB out, it's not spliced or is a junction box.


The power company won't like it because you could steal power from the unmetered conductors via the LB.

I have put an LB on the service riser of a house that was 15 feet in the air and on the outside. The power company made me install one way security screws on that LB cover. That was actually making a concession, they originally didn't want any openable fitting on the unmetered conductors at all. Inside of the house? No way in hell.

It's also not NEC compliant due to having service conductors loop into the house and then back outside.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

In NYC underground service entrance conductors always first enter into an "end box" which the utility puts a lock and seal on. Since your service is existing underground, it's possible your utility would allow a similar arrangement, I would ask as you're probably not the first customer to face this situation. If they won't, then as others have said just change out your panel and leave the meter as is.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Speaking of smart meters, it's been my understanding they require a 5th jaw and therefore nobody with the standard, typical 4-jaw meter pan can have a smart meter. Does anyone know if this is still true?


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> Nope, we are talking about meters here. I think you should go back to bed and sleep off last nights bender.


Then your first OCPD is at the main breaker. They're not fused at the meter. You have unprotected conductors inside the structure. You make no sense.

If he puts the meter outside, he still has unprotected conductors entering the building.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> Then your first OCPD is at the main breaker. They're not fused at the meter. You have unprotected conductors inside the structure. You make no sense.
> 
> If he puts the meter outside, he still has unprotected conductors entering the building.


 You're making no sense whatsoever. I never said a thing about overcurrent protection devices or "unprotected" conductors. ( what does that even mean?)

I have made many post in this thread and they are all very clear. Either go back and read them or better yet sober up first.

The conductors currently come inside of the structure first, then going to the meter. If he puts the meter on the outside of the building, that would mean that the conductors come inside the building, then go outside to the meter, then come back inside. Under no interpretation of the NEC would that be considered "the shortest distance possible". That loop of unmetered service entrance conductors that comes inside of the house is completely unnecessary, and it's not code compliant. I don't know why I have to keep repeating the same thing for you.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Speaking of smart meters, it's been my understanding they require a 5th jaw and therefore nobody with the standard, typical 4-jaw meter pan can have a smart meter. Does anyone know if this is still true?


They put them on a standard 4 jaw here.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> The power company won't like it because you could steal power from the unmetered conductors via the LB.
> 
> I have put an LB on the service riser of a house that was 15 feet in the air and on the outside. The power company made me install one way security screws on that LB cover. That was actually making a concession, they originally didn't want any openable fitting on the unmetered conductors at all. Inside of the house? No way in hell.
> 
> It's also not NEC compliant due to having service conductors loop into the house and then back outside.


You should settle down and spend the afternoon making fish tape hooks in your blacksmith shop. It might be therapeutic.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> You should settle down and spend the afternoon making fish tape hooks in your blacksmith shop. It might be therapeutic.


You should stop questioning things that you don't understand and stop telling people who made accurate posts that they aren't making sense.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Speaking of smart meters, it's been my understanding they require a 5th jaw and therefore nobody with the standard, typical 4-jaw meter pan can have a smart meter. Does anyone know if this is still true?


Not true.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

backstay said:


> Not true.


 Yup. My power company requires 5th jaw meter pan's on new installations, but I'm not sure why since all the smart meters fit into the old 4 jaw pans.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

HackWork said:


> The power company won't like it because you could steal power from the unmetered conductors via the LB.
> 
> I have put an LB on the service riser of a house that was 15 feet in the air and on the outside. The power company made me install one way security screws on that LB cover. That was actually making a concession, they originally didn't want any openable fitting on the unmetered conductors at all. Inside of the house? No way in hell.
> 
> It's also not NEC compliant due to having service conductors loop into the house and then back outside.


I'm not seeing a real problem if it's in rigid.


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

99cents said:


> They put them on a standard 4 jaw here.


Same around here


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

backstay said:


> Not true.


Mine has 4 jaws. Note the POCO data from it as my avatar.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Suncoast Power said:


> I'm not seeing a real problem if it's in rigid.


How do you substantiate that?

Rigid fittings can still be opened, and the power company doesn't like their unmetered power to be accesssible inside the structure.

And as far as the NEC, that would not be compliant unless you installed the service disconnect on that part of the service which first enters, then goes back outside to the meter. But that wouldn't work either.

See 230.70(A)(1)



> (1) Readily Accessible Location. The service disconnecting
> means shall be installed at a readily accessible location
> either outside of a building or structure or *inside nearest the
> point of entrance of the service conductors*.


The service entrance being in rigid might make you feel better about it vs. SE cable, but it doesn't change anything as far as code.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Here's one point I was trying to make: If the utility or inspector demands the meter location be moved then it gets moved. If they allow the existing meter location to be grandfathered, why bother? Smart meters don't care where the meter is.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> Here's one point I was trying to make: If the utility or inspector demands the meter location be moved then it gets moved. If they allow the existing meter location to be grandfathered, why bother? Smart meters don't care where the meter is.


 We've gone over this good buddy:



99cents said:


> Why move the meter? Most utilities are going smart anyway.





HackWork said:


> Because power companies require them outside in any new installlation.


Just to elaborate, smart meters make no difference. They want their equipment accessible from the outside where they can maintain and monitor it. The PoCo has an easement for their metering equipment on the outside of the house, they can get to it without your permission, you can't have them removed for trespassing. When it's inside, the homeowner can do whatever they want (such as steal power) and the only way the power company can get in is with a court order.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Okay. I get it  .


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> Okay. I get it  .


Hey, it's worth a try to ask his PoCo wiring inspector. 

I just know that mine would laugh at me and say something mean


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