# No Call-Backs Please



## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

Guess whoever installed this wanted to make sure he didn't get any call backs, or maybe he already had some!:whistling2:










Funny thing about this panel is, here we are only required to install AFCIs in bedrooms. This house only has three bedrooms and there are 11 AFCIs installed. Maybe he was practicing for if/when we require them everywhere.


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## Executive (Aug 11, 2012)

Why do AFCI breakers hum?

Because they don't know the words.

(Probably posted for the 1000th time on ET.com)


2011 NEC and Massachusetts Amendments require AFCI on all new branch circuits except those serving kitchens, bathrooms, basements, garages and so on. The general rule of thumb is that if the outlet requires GFCI protection, the circuit does not require AFCI protection.

Maybe the installer in the OP was looking for cash flow...

Chris


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

Right side, second pic: 

Basement lights are on AFCI _*and*_ std. breaker? 
Why load unused spaces with (3) SP 20 and (1) DP breaker? (If my helper did that I'd fire him for wasting materials.) 

And of course why all the AFCI's in the first place? 

Was this even done by a real electrician? :laughing::no:


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

mxslick said:


> Right side, second pic:
> 
> Basement lights are on AFCI _*and*_ std. breaker?
> Why load unused spaces with (3) SP 20 and (1) DP breaker? (If my helper did that I'd fire him for wasting materials.)
> ...


I have more questions myself than answers. I was only there for a realtor inspection.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

without looking @ 210.12, i don't believe 'kitchen outlets' are required to have afci protection 

~CS~


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

chicken steve said:


> without looking @ 210.12, i don't believe 'kitchen outlets' are required to have afci protection
> 
> ~CS~


73.3% of the AFCIs that were put in this panel were unneeded here!

And to top that off, narry-a-one GFCI anywhere!


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

maybe in Tennesse L'L....

~CS~


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

chicken steve said:


> maybe in Tennesse L'L....
> 
> ~CS~


That was my point CS.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Duly noted L'L

so did you note this on your report?

~CS~


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

mxslick said:


> Right side, second pic:
> 
> Basement lights are on AFCI _*and*_ std. breaker?
> Why load unused spaces with (3) SP 20 and (1) DP breaker? (If my helper did that I'd fire him for wasting materials.)
> ...


Because instead of running a circuit for the basement lights he probably tagged each one from the nearest circuit. One of my favorite cheap methods.


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

chicken steve said:


> Duly noted L'L
> 
> so did you note this on your report?
> 
> ~CS~


I didn't put it in the report, but I called and told them. I had to call because I found a busted receptacle that all the metal contacts were exposed and was hot. Thought they might appreciate me fixing that while I was there.

I did note the lack of GFCI but didn't think "over doing" the AFCIs were a concern.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

chicken steve said:


> without looking @ 210.12, i don't believe 'kitchen outlets' are required to have afci protection
> 
> ~CS~


I just put some on somebody's kitchen outlet circuits. The old wiring was flakey looking but the guy is a friend of a friend and no way has enough money to hire me to do a complete rewire, so he got some "expensive" (little does he know about that, trust me.....) help. Now a panel full of afci's to ward off the bogey men.....


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Originally i saw afci protection as the fix for K&T upgrades Mac.

i even involved the state, a few insurance companies, as well as past cmp-2 members .....

~CS~


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Little-Lectric said:


> I didn't put it in the report, but I called and told them. I had to call because I found a busted receptacle that all the metal contacts were exposed and was hot. Thought they might appreciate me fixing that while I was there.
> 
> I did note the lack of GFCI but didn't think "over doing" the AFCIs were a concern.


i probably would have done the same L'L....~CS~


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## I_get_shocked (Apr 6, 2009)

I wonder if they kitchen outlets are GFCI protected as well and if so how they are holding up being on an AFCI


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

i've installed plenty of gfci's on afci circuitry, can't see it has mattered much at all Shocked

but what is an eyeopener is the idea that battery back-up smokes came into vougue due to being on afci circuitry

the more i think about it, the more it seems the powers that be didn't realize the dif bettween a glowing connection _vs_ an arcing one.....

~CS~


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## Sparky J (May 17, 2011)

I like the seimens AFCIs and BR breakers together in the panel.


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## k_buz (Mar 12, 2012)

Those are Challenger.


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

Sparky J said:


> I like the seimens AFCIs and BR breakers together in the panel.





k_buz said:


> Those are Challenger.


The panel was a challenger. It appeared that someone changed some of the breakers as well as added the AFCIs. The AFCIs were Murray.

Probably charged them for a panel change as well.:001_huh:


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

I really dislike it when people write "Blank" or "Spare" on the panel schedule.

It's like, "Dammit, you took up all the space with your word, now I have to actually go and get my labeller out and make a proper label to cover up your stupid note telling me that the space I just put a breaker in and attached a wire to was empty right before I put a breaker in it and attached a wire to it."


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

erics37 said:


> I really dislike it when people write "Blank" or "Spare" on the panel schedule.
> 
> It's like, "Dammit, you took up all the space with your word, now I have to actually go and get my labeller out and make a proper label to cover up your stupid note telling me that the space I just put a breaker in and attached a wire to was empty right before I put a breaker in it and attached a wire to it."


I like to use a china marker and put an S or spare next to the breaker in larger panels. 
I'll never write "Blank" on the ledger as its already blank. 
But around here to many people are lazy and don't write anything. 
I hate removing a large cover to find all them "spares" being used.


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## k_buz (Mar 12, 2012)

Inspectors here require breakers to be labeled. I write spare as small as possible on the chart. I rarely will write on the panel cover, only if there is already writing there.


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

erics37 said:


> I really dislike it when people write "Blank" or "Spare" on the panel schedule.
> 
> It's like, "Dammit, you took up all the space with your word, now I have to actually go and get my labeller out and make a proper label to cover up your stupid note telling me that the space I just put a breaker in and attached a wire to was empty right before I put a breaker in it and attached a wire to it."


Can't say that I'm a fan of it either but it is a requirement...

*408.4 Field Identification Required.*
(A) Circuit Directory or Circuit Identification. Every circuit and circuit modification shall be legibly identified as to
its clear, evident, and specific purpose or use. The identification shall include sufficient detail to allow each circuit to
be distinguished from all others. Spare positions that contain unused overcurrent devices or switches shall be described accordingly. The identification shall be included in
a circuit directory that is located on the face or inside of the
panel door in the case of a panelboard, and located at each
switch or circuit breaker in a switchboard. No circuit shall
be described in a manner that depends on transient conditions of occupancy.

For the last sentence, how do you all mark the panel schedule in an office building that has multiple offices? Do you mark it by room number found on the plans?

Pete


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

Pete m. said:


> Can't say that I'm a fan of it either but it is a requirement...
> 
> *408.4 Field Identification Required.*
> (A) Circuit Directory or Circuit Identification. Every circuit and circuit modification shall be legibly identified as to
> ...


Nope! I label them "Big Bubba's" Office, "Little Bubba's" office, Bobbie Sue, Billie Joe, Betty Joe, Bobby Joe and "that new girl"!:laughing:


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

Pete m. said:


> Can't say that I'm a fan of it either but it is a requirement...
> 
> *408.4 Field Identification Required.*
> (A) Circuit Directory or Circuit Identification. Every circuit and circuit modification shall be legibly identified as to
> ...


Hmm, thanks! Didn't realize that was in the code. Yay, another code section for me to ignore.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Lights and outlets
" "
" "
" " 
kitchen
" "
bathroom
Furnace


There ya go, labeled.


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