# Instrument to record the operation of equipment in electric panel



## Signode (Oct 9, 2016)

Dear Friends;

Those who attend the problems happen in machine, know very well that in electrical, the trouble shooting is always very difficult if problem appears and then disappears byself.
 For example, in our corrugator machine, single facer unit can be stopped from more than 15 places (push buttons, sensors, safety limit switches etc). Some time the input of any item is missed just for few milliseconds and system stops the machine without any alarm message. To detect the rout cause of such kind of problem, it is not possible to place a person for hours and hours to keep an eye on inputs to detect which one is missing.


So I am looking for such kind of camera device to place in a panel to record the operation and then check the rout cause of the problem. Does any one know such kind of proper device for specific use?


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Cameras are sensors and most will have event based recording capability.
Will you have an output to connect to the camera or will the event be visually based?
The camera can be setup to capture a specific time before and after an event.
Www.mobotix.com


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## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

I was thinking about this earlier. My experience with PLCs is somewhat dated now, but I don’t think there is a way to visually see (and record) a change of state that might happen in a millisec; I don’t think you will get anywhere with a visual recorder of some sort.

I think @Suncoast Power is on the right track with event recording, but like I said my PLC stuff is dated and I am not sure what is available for event recording on a PLC today. When I did this on robots, it was pretty straight forward and when we did program our PLCs it was done is such a way then generally the process would stop before the fault, so it was fairly easy to narrow down to a couple of sensors to monitor. If the entire process shut down, then we would generally be looking at MCR tied into the E-Stop circuit (push button, curtain, cage / guard switch, etc)

Cheers
John


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Suncoast Power said:


> Cameras are sensors and most will have event based recording capability.
> Will you have an output to connect to the camera or will the event be visually based?
> The camera can be setup to capture a specific time before and after an event.
> Www.mobotix.com


You could put a camera on the control panel and wire just one alarm input configured so that it goes off when the press stops. For example you could put a relay with its coil in parallel with the press and wire the NC contacts to the alarm input on the camera. 

The mobotix is deluxe but even a Microtik with an SD slot will do the job.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

If there is no device that trips and needs a manual reset what would the camera show?

I'd want more a view of the electrical side from a chart recorder and maybe cameras that cover the E-stops to see if one is getting bumped or hit on purpose by an errant operator.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Navyguy said:


> I think @Suncoast Power is on the right track with event recording, but like I said my PLC stuff is dated and I am not sure what is available for event recording on a PLC today.


In many cases I would be unwilling to play with the production program or not allowed to do so. I have not done this but I think the thing to do these days is connect a cheap USB data logger to the same inputs. 

To me this is a hard combination to beat, the PC has the ability to record zillions of transactions in the log and if it's decent the USB device has a little buffer to hold the data if the PC has to wait for the hard drive or Windows farts or etc. The logging really should be a parallel operation to running the machine, in this setup it is literally in parallel. Or maybe in series if there's 4-20ma but you know what I'm saying.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

splatz said:


> In many cases I would be unwilling to play with the production program or not allowed to do so. *I have not done this but I think the thing to do these days is connect a cheap USB data logger to the same inputs. *
> 
> To me this is a hard combination to beat, the PC has the ability to record zillions of transactions in the log and if it's decent the USB device has a little buffer to hold the data if the PC has to wait for the hard drive or Windows farts or etc. The logging really should be a parallel operation to running the machine, in this setup it is literally in parallel. Or maybe in series if there's 4-20ma but you know what I'm saying.


1000% better than taking a picture.


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## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

splatz said:


> You could put a camera on the control panel and wire just one alarm input configured so that it goes off when the press stops.


I think that is the issue actually; if I am understanding the OP correctly, they do not know why it is stopping. Having the camera turn on after a fault is triggered is too late.

I think it might be a two-step approach. Determine what the fault is through event recording and then perhaps a camera to see why the fault is occurring if it can't be proved by a simple sensor swap or mechanical repair such as a loose guard, etc.

Cheers
John


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Navyguy said:


> I think that is the issue actually; if I am understanding the OP correctly, they do not know why it is stopping. Having the camera turn on after a fault is triggered is too late.
> 
> I think it might be a two-step approach. Determine what the fault is through event recording and then perhaps a camera to see why the fault is occurring if it can't be proved by a simple sensor swap or mechanical repair such as a loose guard, etc.
> 
> ...


Well the IP cameras have so many features, almost too many. The ones with SD cards are actually a camera and recorder in one device. 

The usual setting for security is to only record during motion. The amount of motion that triggers recording is configurable. 

You can also record full time. With a 32GB SD card you can get a lot of hours of recording full time, unless it's recording at 4K. 

Most IP cameras have alarm contacts. They can be configured to record a few seconds BEFORE and after the contacts trip. It is always buffering the last 15 seconds or minute or whatever you configure the before time, but only writes it to the SD card when an alarm triggers.


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## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

splatz said:


> In many cases I would be unwilling to play with the production program or not allowed to do so.


Agreed. It really needs to be done in the design stage. What can be done though is fault alarms can be added in parallel that can give some indication of where the fault happened.

I (we) did something similar (it was a little cowboy, but that is a production environment sometimes), added a second PLC with latched indicator lights as outputs. When the fault happened it triggered an input from a parallel "contact" in the program of the main PLC, the main PLC triggered the alarm in the second PLC. Took us a while to figure it out as we were limited to IOs, so if we had a trigger and no alarm, we knew that those were the "good" ones and went to the next series of possible faults.

I recall one tough one in particular, the problem ended up being a pin in an amphenol connector, but the only way we could find it was to trace the sensor; we never would have found it other wise.

Cheers
John


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## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

splatz said:


> Most IP cameras have alarm contacts. They can be configured to record a few seconds BEFORE and after the contacts trip.


That is the part I am not understanding... how can the camera record before the alarm trips?

I get that the camera can start to record slightly after (milliseconds even maybe) the trip, but the camera does not know when the fault will happen.

Cheers
John


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Navyguy said:


> That is the part I am not understanding... how can the camera record before the alarm trips?
> 
> I get that the camera can start to record slightly after (milliseconds even maybe) the trip, but the camera does not know when the fault will happen.
> 
> ...


The camera is ALWAYS on and watching, just not always writing it to the storage disk (SD card) - it is normally just buffering and discarding the video. 

When the alarm trips, it takes what's already in the buffer, plus the next xxx seconds video, makes a clip and writes it to the disk. 

An IP camera is actually not a camera, it's a computer with a camera on it.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

You should put some canary's in cages around the area. Then depending on which bird dies you will know where the trouble is.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

I call your canaries and raise you one data logger

http://www.omega.com/pptst/OM-DAQXL.html


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

*Is it PLC controlled?*

Is it PLC controlled? If so I would use a data logger on the inputs in question or add a PLC to the same inputs and use logic to find first switch opened.

If no PLC and it is hardwired with all stops are in series you need to go old school. Note this works best in fault circuits but can work in all stop circuits. 

If it is a MCR type circuit find the current drawn in that part of the circuit, if very small add a larger load to the circuit.

Place a small glass fuse holder across each switch.
Install the smallest fast acting fuse you can at least 1/10 of the load or smaller.
Power up and run machine.
When the machine shuts down the fuse that blew is the switch that opened. 
Under normal conditions the current flows through the switch, when the switch opens the current flows through the fuse and blows it opening the circuit.
If the circuit has normal stop buttons on it the fuse will blow on the stop button that was pushed, this can be used as a process of elemitation if only the stop button is open.


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## scotch (Oct 17, 2013)

Many years ago in the early days of PLC's I spent many hours on a problem....only to find out it was how the one operator shutdown the system...he didn't just press the stop once ; but double tapped it ...and somehow the AllanBradley PLC got "confused".!


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

scotch said:


> Many years ago in the early days of PLC's I spent many hours on a problem....only to find out it was how the one operator shutdown the system...he didn't just press the stop once ; but double tapped it ...and somehow the AllanBradley PLC got "confused".!


That is exactly why I said put the camera on the machine and not on the PLC, operator errors among 'manual labor' is more common than electro-mechanical problems.


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