# Dear low voltage subcontractor



## Podagrower (Mar 16, 2008)

I hate you. All of you. Every last one of you. 
I don't really mean to start a "bash" thread, but I'll bet a few people can contribute.

You need a 1" conduit for 4 cat 6 cables.
You need a pull string for 8 feet of pipe.
You have to have a gun held to your head to finish on time.

I've been ready for inspection for almost a week. Just waitin on you. You finally show up. I guess I should have taken your keys away so you couldn't leave. But imagine my surprise today when I got to work and found you hadn't finished. Open boxes, wire not pulled, crap not done. I have to scramble to find enough blank plates to cover your crap.

And when I think it can't get any worse. I walk into my electric room with my inspector, and what's the first thing he sees


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## Grimlock (Aug 4, 2009)

WTF? What were they trying to do?

BTW I 2nd your rant.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Podagrower said:


> I hate you. All of you. Every last one of you.
> .........


 
Aw, c'mon........ open up......... tell us how you _really_ feel! :laughing:

Yeah, I've had telcos require 4" for a 25-pair.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Podagrower said:


> I hate you. All of you. Every last one of you.
> .........


 
Aw, c'mon........ open up......... tell us how you _really_ feel! :laughing:

Yeah, I've had telcos require 4" for a 25-pair.


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## Grimlock (Aug 4, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Aw, c'mon........ open up......... tell us how you _really_ feel! :laughing:
> 
> Yeah, I've had telcos require 4" for a 25-pair.


 


480sparky said:


> Aw, c'mon........ open up......... tell us how you _really_ feel! :laughing:
> 
> Yeah, I've had telcos require 4" for a 25-pair.


 
Echo.... Echo.... :laughing:


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

I can't paint with such a broad of a brush, but I hate the feeling I get when I fail "my" inspection for work someone else did. 

On case comes to mind. I wired a local Ruby Tuesday's restaurant, and fail the inspection for work the low voltage guys did. I did the low voltage for the POS systems, alarms, and the phones, but a local electronics store did all the audio and video stuff. They honestly thought it would be no problem to use the HVAC trunk lines as a convenient conduit. Mamma-mia. 

Here locally, the Telco requires 2" for resi and 4" for commercial, from the peds, no matter what they run in. I can see the 4" if they're pulling fiber, but c'mon.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Aw, c'mon........ open up......... tell us how you _really_ feel! :laughing:
> 
> Yeah, I've had telcos require 4" for a 25-pair.


That was Verizon specs a few years ago.. I said something nasty to the guy when he told me 4" for 25 pair :laughing:


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## Podagrower (Mar 16, 2008)

Grimlock said:


> WTF? What were they trying to do?
> 
> BTW I 2nd your rant.


At their rack, I left them 10' of ground wire so they could ground their rack. Rather than use my wire, they cut it off at the bonding bushing and added their own wire from the rack (2 wires 1 lug).


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Grimlock said:


> Echo.... Echo.... :laughing:


 
Don't know why it does that.


Don't know why it does that.


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## amptech (Sep 21, 2007)

Podagrower said:


> I hate you. All of you. Every last one of you.
> I don't really mean to start a "bash" thread, but I'll bet a few people can contribute.
> 
> You need a 1" conduit for 4 cat 6 cables.
> ...


I laughed out loud! That's great! We have one local low-voltage/alarm/security/audio-video contractor that actually goes to the county jail and gets work release prisoners to pull his wire and nail up boxes. Yah, that's what I want. Convicts installing the security system in my new custom home or business.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> I wired a local Ruby Tuesday's restaurant


All by yourself? I'm impressed. :notworthy:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> I can't paint with such a broad of a brush, but I hate the feeling I get when I fail "my" inspection for work someone else did.
> 
> On case comes to mind. I wired a local Ruby Tuesday's restaurant, and fail the inspection for work the low voltage guys did. I did the low voltage for the POS systems, alarms, and the phones, but a local electronics store did all the audio and video stuff. They honestly thought it would be no problem to use the HVAC trunk lines as a convenient conduit. Mamma-mia.
> .........


I'd say it's not on my permit, so you can't fail me for it.


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## amptech (Sep 21, 2007)

Peter D said:


> All by yourself? I'm impressed. :notworthy:


You must be easily impressed. I've wired an Advance Auto Parts store and a 25k sqft warehouse by myself and I'm nowhere near being in the Shunkster's league.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Peter D said:


> All by yourself? I'm impressed. :notworthy:


All joking aside, it mostly was just me. It was being built as an addition to a hotel that was already my customer. I also wired a service for a traffic signal and some crosswalk signals, because part of their parking lot was on the other side of a street.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

amptech said:


> You must be easily impressed. I've wired an Advance Auto Parts store and a 25k sqft warehouse by myself and I'm nowhere near being in the Shunkster's league.


I suppose so. I usually don't equate one-man shops with small and medium commercial jobs, but ok. I'm willing to change my views. :laughing:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

An auto parts store is 95% lighting. Some computer and phone lines, a service, a couple of pooper rooms and an office.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

amptech said:


> You must be easily impressed. I've wired an Advance Auto Parts store and a 25k sqft warehouse by myself and I'm nowhere near being in the Shunkster's league.


I wired an Auto Zone auto parts store, and I'll never do another one. It took me almost a year to get fully paid. They'd just tricke in money as they felt like it. 

I wired a Wallgreen's by myself, and that was almost a joy. They had a spec on every little detail, and provided almost all the material. They've really got store-building down to a science.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> I wired a Wallgreen's by myself,


Well I wired a home depot on Monday and Lowes on Tuesday. :laughing:


Come on Marc how could that be true, was the schedule one year or was it the size of a fotohut? :blink:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> I wired a Wallgreen's by myself, and that was almost a joy. They had a spec on every little detail, and provided almost all the material. They've really got store-building down to a science.


Now I know you've been in the liquor cabinet. :laughing: A Walgreens by yourself? I know one man could wire the Twin Towers given enough time, but that's just it. The Walgreen's I was on there was no way one man could do in in the time frame they had. Not only that they're like a mini-supermarket nowadays. There's an awful lot of electrical work in such a small footprint.


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## Jeff000 (Jun 18, 2008)

x2 on your rant. 

In the bank we just finished the telecom guys "required" three 2" conduits. They pulled a fiber in one a single cat6e in the one and the ground in the other.... do those mofo's know how hard it was to run that pipe


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## BEAMEUP (Sep 19, 2008)

_I hate you. All of you. Every last one of you. _
_I don't really mean to start a "bash" thread, but I'll bet a few people can contribute._

_You need a 1" conduit for 4 cat 6 cables._
_You need a pull string for 8 feet of pipe._
_You have to have a gun held to your head to finish on time._

_I've been ready for inspection for almost a week. Just waitin on you. You finally show up. I guess I should have taken your keys away so you couldn't leave. But imagine my surprise today when I got to work and found you hadn't finished. Open boxes, wire not pulled, crap not done. I have to scramble to find enough blank plates to cover your crap._

Well what does your scope of work/ contract scedule say? Are they behind schedule or are you ahead? If they are behind, I would demoblize and leave the jobsite.When the G.C. calls you back hit him up with a change order to cover the cost of remobilzing and have them pass it onto the Low voltage contractor.

Liquidated dameage clause goes both ways when someone is behind schedule.:thumbup:


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

I don't understand why someone would be waiting to get work done by somebody else inspected. :confused1:


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## Podagrower (Mar 16, 2008)

electricmanscott said:


> I don't understand why someone would be waiting to get work done by somebody else inspected. :confused1:


In Florida, all wiring (277, 120, fire alarm, CATV, phone, data) except hvac controls falls under the electric permit.


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## JoeKP (Nov 16, 2009)

Jeff000 said:


> x2 on your rant.
> 
> In the bank we just finished the telecom guys "required" three 2" conduits. They pulled a fiber in one a single cat6e in the one and the ground in the other.... do those mofo's know how hard it was to run that pipe


Plenty of room to expand later on?:laughing::blink:





Podagrower said:


> And when I think it can't get any worse. I walk into my electric room with my inspector, and what's the first thing he sees


i just think that they didn't like the shade of green of your wire...:no:


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## Grimlock (Aug 4, 2009)

With the all the conduit requirements they place on us you'd think they plan on climbing down into the conduit and walking the wire from point A to point B.


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

My neck of the woods the person doing the low voltage must obtain a permit and have the low voltage work inspected. 
As you know it is usually up to the EC to provide a "ring and string" or a conduit up the walls. We give the wall close ups without the low volt being installed if the EC is providing the conduit or ring and string.

The ceiling close up is where the low voltage work must be completed in order for the low voltage permit to be approved for ceiling close.
This becomes a big hassle when the owner is providing the contractor to do their low voltage. 

If the area for Low voltage outlets is blank on the EC's permit, I ask who is doing the Low Volt ? I ask the EC and the General at the time of the wall close up. Then explain to the GC that the Low Volt must be run and supported 100% prior to him being allowed to close up the ceiling. 
They must also have a final inspection just like the EC does.

All approval / Disapproval stickers are placed on the back of the first page of the original approved drawings. These drawings must be on site to obtain an inspection.
I will inspect and approve the EC's ceiling close up but write on the sticker "pending Low Voltage Inspection " I do this so the builing inspector knows that the ceilings are not 100% ready , thus he won't approve it until I approve it. 
We do this as we are tired of the Low Volt folks just coming in a stringing their cables everywhere and anyway they can.

As far as the "required" size of a conduit for the Low Volt, it was figured into the price of the job. Your getting paid to install it. Who cares what they install in it.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

manchestersparky said:


> My neck of the woods the person doing the low voltage must obtain a permit and have the low voltage work inspected.
> As you know it is usually up to the EC to provide a "ring and string" or a conduit up the walls. We give the wall close ups without the low volt being installed if the EC is providing the conduit or ring and string.
> 
> The ceiling close up is where the low voltage work must be completed in order for the low voltage permit to be approved for ceiling close.
> ...


That sounds like an excellent system! 

In my area, the low volt is just part of the electrical inspection. Sounds like other areas as the same way. It's a pain. First, proving that it's not my work to the EI and GC, then getting over embarrassment that is not really due me.


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## Honda Racer (Feb 15, 2010)

Podagrower said:


> I hate you. All of you. Every last one of you.
> I don't really mean to start a "bash" thread, but I'll bet a few people can contribute.
> 
> You need a 1" conduit for 4 cat 6 cables.
> ...


 Thats brutal work, it's looks like something Peter D would do.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Honda Racer said:


> Thats brutal work, it's looks like something Peter D would do.


Are you getting drunk on mouthwash again? :laughing:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

manchestersparky said:


> My neck of the woods the person doing the low voltage must obtain a permit and have the low voltage work inspected. .........


 
Same here. Many times, the low voltage side of a large job is a seperate bid, so you may end up with two ECs.

But if my permit is for the 120-volt and up stuff, and the other slobs' permit is for the weenie wires, why should his ineptness cause me to fail my inspection?


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## Jeff000 (Jun 18, 2008)

JoeKP said:


> Plenty of room to expand later on?:laughing::blink:



lol, expand to what is all I need to know. They have enough bandwidth to run 3 phone lines to every office already (is what I was told).... if your bank is that busy you best be building a new one, or ten. 

They could have done with one run just fine, like our spec said. Or hell one 2" and one 1" 
Took me and an another guy 4 days to run the two extra 2" runs the 100' or so... this was done after t bar and ceiling tile was in. It was all cost plus, but still.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Podagrower said:


> In Florida, all wiring (277, 120, fire alarm, CATV, phone, data) except hvac controls falls under the electric permit.



So you get a permit for your work, and a LV contractor can come in and work under your permit, company name, and license?

For lack of a better word that's just stupid.


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## mikeh32 (Feb 16, 2009)

uh oh.. im a low voltage contractor. but i dont go ****ing **** up like in your pic. 

and doing an auto parts store is nothing impressive. ive done around 75. did my first one at 21. 

but for a lot of the tower work ive been doing its been all 6 inch for the low voltage and more grounds then i have ever seen.


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## Podagrower (Mar 16, 2008)

electricmanscott said:


> So you get a permit for your work, and a LV contractor can come in and work under your permit, company name, and license?
> 
> For lack of a better word that's just stupid.


Not always the same permit, but sometimes it is. Sometimes it is like Manchester said, where the lo volt guys failing inspection will cause your inspection to not pass, even if everything you did is fine. There are some areas where it gets really confusing when you have an electrical permit, a low voltage permit for data, a low voltage permit for catv, a low voltage permit for building access/security, and all permits must be called for inspection at the same time, then if one of the low voltage guys fails, the electrical fails also. Huge pain in the


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

If the low voltage contractors have their own permit, they are responsible for their own inspections.
It just so happens that ALL permits must be passed in order for the GC to close the ceiling.
I don't fail an electricians inspection because the Low voltage guys have not passed theirs. I simply make a note on the EC's approval sticker there are more inspections needed prior to being allowed to close ceiling.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

manchestersparky said:


> If the low voltage contractors have their own permit, they are responsible for their own inspections.
> It just so happens that ALL permits must be passed in order for the GC to close the ceiling.
> I don't fail an electricians inspection because the Low voltage guys have not passed theirs. I simply make a note on the EC's approval sticker there are more inspections needed prior to being allowed to close ceiling.


 
I could see that if the low-volt was a sub of the EC. But suppose the EC only has the 120-volt stuff and up, and the data/telecom/security/video/etc. is a seperate bid and contract for the GC?


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## s.kelly (Mar 20, 2009)

I agree it can be a pita, but I also agree with the comment on it was in the specs and I have gotten paid to do it. 

Also had some good laughs at some LV guys that showed us their "contraption" when they bent up an offset. It was a movie theatre and we had done lots of neat pipe all over the projection area. I wanted to put a sticker on their 40' or so that said we did not do it:thumbup:


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

480sparky said:


> I could see that if the low-volt was a sub of the EC. But suppose the EC only has the 120-volt stuff and up, and the data/telecom/security/video/etc. is a seperate bid and contract for the GC?


When I put the note : Pending Low volt inspection. I write it on the GREEN APPROVED sticker for the EC. That note is a reminder to the GC and the building inspector. Building inspector will not pass anything until electrical and mechanical have passed. 

I do not hold the EC "hostage" They are well aware that they have passed and it's now up to the LV contractors.


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