# Arrow Hart MCC



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

I seem to remember them when I was a kid-- maybe I am mistaken..


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

460 Delta said:


> When I get a few more posts under my belt, I’ll show some pics of a Arrow Hart MCC I’ve been into at one of our sites. Has anyone else ever seen a Arrow Hart MCC?


We still have a couple here. 
Ever worked on a Federal Pacifc MCC? They were nice and roomy and built like a tank.


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## Lone Crapshooter (Nov 8, 2008)

Never saw Arrow Heart MCC but I have scene Arrow Heart switchgear. I think it was late 70's or early 80's vintage.

LC


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

I remodeled a CH Unitrol at a plant with some used buckets and doors I found in a abandoned MCC shed. Those babies are nice. I’ve yet to see a Federal Pacific unit, we have two Continental Manufacturing MCC’s with ITE Imperial starters and breakers. These are the oddest things I’ve seen, they are two buckets wide and these are skinny buckets at that. The wire gutters are small and crammed tight, with good ole TW wire thank you very much.


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

This is the baby I’m working on currently, the buckets with the circular disconnect handles are the ones I put in to fix the septuple taps on the main breaker.


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

Two atta boy or girl points to who spots both problems in this photo.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

One of the clips, fingers, etc isn’t where it’s supposed to be. That’s one.


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

Yep that’s one, look above it and to the left slightly.


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## Moonshot180 (Apr 1, 2012)

Arrowhart MCCs are all over our plant. We started retrofitting some of the MCC buckets with Sq D equipment. We do routine inspection and cleaning on the MCCs all the time.


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

This bucket was in the MCC I was salvaging buckets from. It was a bucket with a NEMA 4 starter running a 75hp motor started across the line. I would have thought slamming a 75 hp across the line with no soft start would have torched that B phase bus, but I think the unit only ran a very short time after this was done. 
The other issue is the chunk of clip insulation that is laying between A and B phase. That was from a cram in install from the bucket above. 
Forensic electrical!


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

Moonshot, what innards are in the Arrow Hart MCC’s you have? These have ITE Imperial breakers and 709 series Allen Bradley starters. 
Curious if they put in whatever you specified or if it was standard ITE AB.


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## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

Arrow Hart used to have their own line of contactors and such, but they got out of that business in the 60s or 70s. So once that happened, anyone needing to add onto or repair their old MCCs was forced to use whatever else they had available.

Sometimes I marvel at how long people will hang onto old decrepit electrical gear regardless of how unsafe it gets to be by modern standards.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

It always makes me uneasy racking in a bucket in old MCC's when they don't have any sort of self-guiding feature for the stabs and I can't get my eyes on the connection. Bending one over sideways like that picture is always one of my fears. There are a few models out there that have the bus's close enough together to go phase-to-phase if you rack one in too vigorously and get something bent. Pucker factor.

I never get too concerned about what breakers or starters any given bucket has. We can make about anything work. If they have through door breaker operators or door interlocks, that's where things get troublesome- trying to make some sort of retrofit work.


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## Moonshot180 (Apr 1, 2012)

Alot of our equipment that is needed for safe shutdown of the reactors, are still controlled by Arrowhart motor starters. I will say this, as I have worked on them quite often, if kept in a well controlled, air conditioned environment, our arrowhart MCCs, although old, still function pretty darn good. We are always doing MCC inspection and cleaning on these MCCs, and regularly take apart these starters, and clean them. We will even place the contacts in an alcnox bath to get good and clean.

Maybe some day, we will need to replace them, but from what I have seen, as long as the equipment is taken care off, it will continue to function as designed.


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## Moonshot180 (Apr 1, 2012)

here is an example, of an arrowhart motor starter, that's probably as old as I am, still being used in a vital system to our plant. I am sure this starter is taken better care of than me. haha

These MCCs are in air conditioned, moisture free board rooms, that are regularly cleaned. These Arrowharts are living the good life. Haha.


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

MDShunk said:


> It always makes me uneasy racking in a bucket in old MCC's when they don't have any sort of self-guiding feature for the stabs and I can't get my eyes on the connection. Bending one over sideways like that picture is always one of my fears. There are a few models out there that have the bus's close enough together to go phase-to-phase if you rack one in too vigorously and get something bent. Pucker factor.
> 
> I never get too concerned about what breakers or starters any given bucket has. We can make about anything work. If they have through door breaker operators or door interlocks, that's where things get troublesome- trying to make some sort of retrofit work.


I can show you report after report of arc flash injuries doing this no matter what age or manufacturer. I've also contacted manufacturers. With one exception, ALL of them say never to do this live. It's not a pucker factor, it's damn stupid. OSHA has been very up front since they fined GM back in 2006 for these practices. If you can shut the power off...and production losses are NOT a reason you can't, you must do it. This is about as damn stupid as guys that drill and tap the bus in a lighting panel to put a different make/model of breaker in if with a piece of tape to keep the drill from hitting the back of the panel while it's live.

The one exception is there are now MCCs on the market with built in disconnects on the stabs. It's expensive but it's out there. You can remove and insert buckets on these because it's designed to do it.


Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Who said anything about doing this live?


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## Moonshot180 (Apr 1, 2012)

paulengr said:


> I can show you report after report of arc flash injuries doing this no matter what age or manufacturer. I've also contacted manufacturers. With one exception, ALL of them say never to do this live. It's not a pucker factor, it's damn stupid. OSHA has been very up front since they fined GM back in 2006 for these practices. If you can shut the power off...and production losses are NOT a reason you can't, you must do it. This is about as damn stupid as guys that drill and tap the bus in a lighting panel to put a different make/model of breaker in if with a piece of tape to keep the drill from hitting the back of the panel while it's live.
> 
> The one exception is there are now MCCs on the market with built in disconnects on the stabs. It's expensive but it's out there. You can remove and insert buckets on these because it's designed to do it.
> 
> ...


 
thanks for the information. Could you email me some of these reports to [email protected]? I would appreciate the info. We are still racking MCC buckets off and on the stabs :/ and I would like to change the way we do business here also.

V/R


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

In a moisture rich, dark and mouse filled mech room. 
One of our older GE’s.


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## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

Moonshot180 said:


> here is an example, of an arrowhart motor starter, that's probably as old as I am, still being used in a vital system to our plant. I am sure this starter is taken better care of than me. haha
> 
> These MCCs are in air conditioned, moisture free board rooms, that are regularly cleaned. These Arrowharts are living the good life. Haha.


I have to say, that is one clean looking bucket. 

Bravo! :vs_clap:


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

Shunk, I realize that most anything can be retrofitted in a bucket, all three of these have ITE breakers and AB starters in them, just curious if this was a typical setup or custom ordered. 
Jraef, these were likely installed used in 1978 when the original Co. built these plants, they were well known to spend money when they needed to, but buy used and repurpose also when it was possible. I think they are in fine shape for there age and have mileage left in them, in my opinion 709 AB and Citation series CH are as good as it gets. Iv'e made a career of working from the salvage pile and making do with what I was able to wrangle up. I don't really understand the idea that old is less than safe and needs to be replaced when it is in good condition and parts are available or suitable substitutes can be made to fit with minor field fitting. 
I thank you all for responding to a new old guy with random musings, I enjoy hearing different perspectives from my own, it has really encouraged me to do a better job and keep on trying.


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## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

One thing about old starters, evidenced in your photo by the way, is that they no longer meet code because they only have OL heaters in two phases, not all three. That changed in the 1978 code, so you can always date those old starters to before that time when you see two heaters. The old A-B 709 starters only had two OL heaters too, so when A-B changed the design with that 1978 code change, they fixed some other issues, such as the brittleness of the Bakelite plastic used in the body (in the 509 series they went to FRP like basically everyone else; FRP = Fiberglass Reinforced Plastic, which itself is now being "outlawed" because it isn't recyclable).

In other cases, old product lines died off because the Bakelite or fiber reinforced plastic used to make them contained asbestos, so the required change to eliminate it was too much for smaller companies to survive, or at least to re-invest in continuing their product lines that used it. That's why we (at least us old farts) saw a number of older product lines disappear around that time. AO Smith / Clark Control, ITT Rundell, ITE Imperial, Arrow Hart, Ward Leonard, Joslyn, all of these companies had to drop their contactor / starter product lines about that time, or switched to brand-labeling IEC starters under their old names (or were bought by IEC companies, like Siemens did with ITE and Telemecanique did with ITT Rundell).


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

These all have three overload heaters on them trust me, the 709’s I have here are two on one side and one on the other. It made for a short height overall. I believe the switch to three overloads was in 1968.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

JRaef said:


> One thing about old starters, evidenced in your photo by the way, is that they no longer meet code because they only have OL heaters in two phases, not all three. That changed in the 1978 code, so you can always date those old starters to before that time when you see two heaters. The old A-B 709 starters only had two OL heaters too, so when A-B changed the design with that 1978 code change, they fixed some other issues, such as the brittleness of the Bakelite plastic used in the body (in the 509 series they went to FRP like basically everyone else; FRP = Fiberglass Reinforced Plastic, which itself is now being "outlawed" because it isn't recyclable).
> 
> . That's why we (at least us old farts) saw a number of older product lines disappear around that time. AO Smith / Clark Control, ITT Rundell, ITE Imperial, Arrow Hart, Ward Leonard, Joslyn, all of these companies had to drop their contactor / starter product lines about that time, or switched to brand-labeling IEC starters under their old names (or were bought by IEC companies, like Siemens did with ITE and Telemecanique did with ITT Rundell).


Ward Leonard did make nice gear. It’s built like a battleship.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

Wirenuting said:


> Ward Leonard did make nice gear. It’s built like a battleship.


Even looks good


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## Norcal (Mar 22, 2007)

Moonshot180 said:


> here is an example, of an arrowhart motor starter, that's probably as old as I am, still being used in a vital system to our plant. I am sure this starter is taken better care of than me. haha
> 
> These MCCs are in air conditioned, moisture free board rooms, that are regularly cleaned. These Arrowharts are living the good life. Haha.





Looks like the breaker is GE since the rotary operator is just like GE's.


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## Moonshot180 (Apr 1, 2012)

you're right Norcal, GE breaker, old TED model


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## Norcal (Mar 22, 2007)

JRaef said:


> One thing about old starters, evidenced in your photo by the way, is that they no longer meet code because they only have OL heaters in two phases, not all three. That changed in the 1978 code, so you can always date those old starters to before that time when you see two heaters. The old A-B 709 starters only had two OL heaters too, so when A-B changed the design with that 1978 code change, they fixed some other issues, such as the brittleness of the Bakelite plastic used in the body (in the 509 series they went to FRP like basically everyone else; FRP = Fiberglass Reinforced Plastic, which itself is now being "outlawed" because it isn't recyclable).
> 
> In other cases, old product lines died off because the Bakelite or fiber reinforced plastic used to make them contained asbestos, so the required change to eliminate it was too much for smaller companies to survive, or at least to re-invest in continuing their product lines that used it. That's why we (at least us old farts) saw a number of older product lines disappear around that time. AO Smith / Clark Control, ITT Rundell, ITE Imperial, Arrow Hart, Ward Leonard, Joslyn, all of these companies had to drop their contactor / starter product lines about that time, or switched to brand-labeling IEC starters under their old names (or were bought by IEC companies, like Siemens did with ITE and Telemecanique did with ITT Rundell).



The code change requiring 3 O/L's happened with the 1971 NEC.


Rundel was part of ITE Imperial not ITT.


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