# Should I Become Non-Union Electrician?



## jwjrw

I'm non union and I make a very good living.......Hvac guys do too.


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## jza

Union is for cowards.

Non union electricians earn a very good living.


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## oldtimer

jza said:


> Union is for cowards.
> 
> Non union electricians earn a very good living.


 READ Sundays Citizen!!!


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## Brother Noah1

You will be the one who will have to live with whatever decision you make. In the union the scales are already established as well as H&W, Retirement, IRA's etc. Most places I have traveled the open shops pay less than the union shops and few have had benefits to compete with what unions offer. It is your life and your choice.


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## RIVETER

I am a union electrician. However, I went to school at nights to learn the basics of HVAC. I made a lot of money doing heating and air and I believe you should go to school to learn it. Being an electrician has been great for me but apparently times have changed. No matter how bad times may be, people will not give up their alcohol and they will not give up their creature comforts. Be an honest heating and air guy and you will always be able to make a living.:thumbsup:


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## Frasbee

Do what you have to now, join the Union later.


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## mattsilkwood

RIVETER said:


> I am a union electrician. However, I went to school at nights to learn the basics of HVAC. I made a lot of money doing heating and air and I believe you should go to school to learn it. Being an electrician has been great for me but apparently times have changed. No matter how bad times may be, people will not give up their alcohol and they will not give up their creature comforts. Be an honest heating and air guy and you will always be able to make a living.:thumbsup:


 It's settled then, I'm gonna be a bartender.:jester:


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## migidametz

I am a union electrician that fell into doing temp. control installs, turning into doing full out HVAC. You may get side work doing electrical work, but you will never run out of side work doing HVAC, even if you don't want it. You get more service work doing HVAC and usually pays better.


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## miller_elex

jza said:


> Union is for cowards.


Sounds like a keyboard commando / computer tough-guy.


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## Donald11

Well, thanks for the replies so far. I have nothing agaisnt HVAC technicians, but I have always considered electricians to be more "prestigious" hence why I was leaning toward it. But money is money at the end of the day.


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## slickvic277

Become a plumber. Way to many electricians. Plumbers never run out of SH*T to do.:whistling2:


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## RIVETER

migidametz said:


> I am a union electrician that fell into doing temp. control installs, turning into doing full out HVAC. You may get side work doing electrical work, but you will never run out of side work doing HVAC, even if you don't want it. You get more service work doing HVAC and usually pays better.


That's what I'm talking about. I always tell the younger electricians to learn about heating and air.:thumbsup:


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## miller_elex

migidametz said:


> I am a union electrician that fell into doing temp. control installs, turning into doing full out HVAC.


I was doing HVAC, then went electrician, and now do the energy management / temp control. Its thah bomb sh1t. 

The guys who do the concentric bends in the big pipe and pull big wire laugh at the hvac control guys, until they are humbled by the complexity of an hvac controls install. I think controls is more stimulating.

To the OP: hit the non-union apprenticeship, so you can accumulate construction hours and residential hours while you apply for the union program. Not all your hours will count, but it is well worth it to see how both sides do business. There are stereotypes of union and non-union contractors, but the only one that is true across the board is: at non-union contractors everyone is suspicious about who gets paid more, and who is sucking up at the office. There is no true stereotype about quality of work.

Go find a residential new construction shop and rope houses for six months. It is a MUST to learn circuitry. There should also be a mandatory tour at a residential remodel shop. Then go get your commercial on, TI and core and shell jobs. As an apprentice you want to see as much variety as possible, yet be in one place long enough to make sure it soaks in: its a tough balance.


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## slickvic277

miller_elex said:


> I was doing HVAC, then went electrician, and now do the energy management / temp control. Its thah bomb sh1t.
> 
> The guys who do the concentric bends in the big pipe and pull big wire laugh at the hvac control guys, until they are humbled by the complexity of an hvac controls install. I think controls is more stimulating.
> 
> To the OP: hit the non-union apprenticeship, so you can accumulate construction hours and residential hours while you apply for the union program. Not all your hours will count, but it is well worth it to see how both sides do business. There are stereotypes of union and non-union contractors, but the only one that is true across the board is: at non-union contractors everyone is suspicious about who gets paid more, and who is sucking up at the office. There is no true stereotype about quality of work.
> 
> Go find a residential new construction shop and rope houses for six months. It is a MUST to learn circuitry. There should also be a mandatory tour at a residential remodel shop. Then go get your commercial on, TI and core and shell jobs. As an apprentice you want to see as much variety as possible, yet be in one place long enough to make sure it soaks in: its a tough balance.




Words of wisdom. Controls is the sh*t. I have limited controls experience but the work I have done was enjoyable. Usually your left alone to do your own thing. It's more of a thinking mans job and much less demanding on the body. Building gear rooms is fun and bending large pipe is challenging but control electricians are much more in demand. I'm taking advantage of some down time to try to make the switch.


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## migidametz

Electricians do laugh at control guys. They think that running big pipe or pulling huge wire is what makes them this big tough electrician. Try doing control work and building your own schematics or circuit when all you have is a sequence of operation in a spec. book to work off of. Its wiring that really takes smarts and I love it because it's challenging. Anyone can pull big wire into a panel or switchgear.


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## Donald11

How does one get a non-union apprenticeship? Where do I look? Would I get paid?


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## captkirk

Donald11 said:


> Well, thanks for the replies so far. I have nothing agaisnt HVAC technicians, but I have always considered electricians to be more "prestigious" hence why I was leaning toward it. But money is money at the end of the day.


 Working in the hot, cold, dirty, dusty enviorments is prestigious to you....? LOL ............:laughing:

Im non union and I make a great living.....but then again who friggin cares.......LOL


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## minibdr

I see your in NYC so am I. The union apprentice starts at a low 13 $ an hour I`m am sure a non union helper would get less.


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## Donald11

Is it better to be a non-union apprentice or to go to school and learn (ie: community college)?


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## Frasbee

Donald11 said:


> Is it better to be a non-union apprentice or to go to school and learn (ie: community college)?


Look to see if Associated Builders and Contractors are in your area.

I would not advise going to a community college. A lot of them will even state in the electrical curriculum that their education will help you get an *entry level* position in the electrical trade upon completion.

Not worth the money since you're likely to be starting from the bottom, anyway.


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## JohnR

Donald, you are in NY and the answers you get from others will not have as much to do with your case as someone from NY. 

So far as I know, living close to NY (country wise) I am under the impression that most of the work in NY is dominated by the union. Yes there are non union shops and then there are those under the table fly by nighters too. 

Do you want to have to walk by the union guys with the big blow up rat in front of the job you are working on? Do you have what it takes to do that? Not everyone does. Only you can answer that. I wish you luck with making a living till time gives you what you really want.
If you do what you like to do, you will never work a day in your life.


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## slickvic277

Donald11 said:


> Is it better to be a non-union apprentice or to go to school and learn (ie: community college)?



Dude you seriously must be dense. Get off your ass and actually pursue something. You wanna do electrical work then make it happen. Go to a tech school, community college, or do a google search,
"electricians jobs in New Jersey" 

Your in Jersey. Non-union "apprenticeships" are almost non-existent out side of the ABC. But you can still get a non-union job as a helper and learn as you go. Most of the non-union shops would prefer to see you have some education like penco-tech or community college before they hire you, just to know your serious about the work and have something invested in it.

So here's your choices,

http://www.abcnjc.org/
http://www.njatc.org/training/find.aspx?NJ
http://www.trade-schools.net/directory/new-jersey-electrician.asp

Now get of your ass and make it happen. Report back after you have either applied for an apprenticeship, enrolled in tech school, or got a job with a contractor. But not before.


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## miller_elex

Donald11 said:


> Is it better to be a non-union apprentice or to go to school and learn (ie: community college)?


You do them both at the same time, yah bonehead


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## Donald11

Well, I don't know why some of the responses are becoming hostile. First off, I heard nothing but bad things about a lot of the for profit tech schools in regards to the quality of education. So I was looking to avoid them. And as far as the work in NYC being union dominated, yes, I am aware of that. But non-union electricians are not going anywhere. So if you can't beat them....

However, I do thank those who posted helpful advice. I know some of my posts sound dumb, but take in mind I am just 22 years old and underemployed with a near-useless BS degree.


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## slickvic277

Donald11 said:


> Well, I don't know why some of the responses are becoming hostile. First off, I heard nothing but bad things about a lot of the for profit tech schools in regards to the quality of education. So I was looking to avoid them. And as far as the work in NYC being union dominated, yes, I am aware of that. But non-union electricians are not going anywhere. So if you can't beat them....



I told you not to report back until you had something to report................


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## Lone Crapshooter

From what I have seen stay away from the specialty schools. they tend to be expensive for what you get. Junior college is the way to go . Some junior colleges have a relationship with the ABC organization in the area. 
Another thing you need to look at is that allot of times specialty schools classes will not transfer to real colleges but at a junior college most classes will transfer.
Now at a junior college your nearly useless BS degree might be useful in getting a useful electrical technology degree.
The cold hard facts are that for a contractor a technology degree does not mean allot. It does mean that you understand some theory and you are trainable. For construction work BAT approved apprenticeship is the way to go. That says that you have the field experience to back up the classroom training. 
I do not have degrees I have certificates in Industrial Commercial Electricity and Industrial Commercial HVAC and a Electrical Apprenticeship.I have all of the trade specific classes that go with a degree I don't have the English and college Algebra.
The bottom line is any education is better than no education.


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## Southeast Power

Donald11 said:


> Well, I don't know why some of the responses are becoming hostile. First off, I heard nothing but bad things about a lot of the for profit tech schools in regards to the quality of education. So I was looking to avoid them. And as far as the work in NYC being union dominated, yes, I am aware of that. But non-union electricians are not going anywhere. So if you can't beat them....
> 
> However, I do thank those who posted helpful advice. I know some of my posts sound dumb, but take in mind I am just 22 years old and underemployed with a near-useless BS degree.


First of all, you are wise to avoid the "for profit" tech schools. 
Second, the two guys that say that they are making good money working non-union, are both contractors. I will leave it at that.

What is your BS degree in?
If you are just 22 and post grad, a business degree would be your best move at this point. 
One possibility is to offer yourself as an intern at one of the larger shops in your area. Look for work doing take-offs and supporting the logistic side of the house.
Field work right now is very tight for even the most seasoned electricians.


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## Donald11

My degree is in legal studies. I considered getting a business degree a while ago, but it would not be of much use unless it was from a top school since there are just way too many college grads and too few jobs right now. So I decided to instead learn a trade.


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## Chris21

Donald11 said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> I posted here recently about becoming a union electrician but since the unions are hard to get into, would it be worth it to go to school and become a non-union electrician as opposed to doing an apprenticeship with the union? Would I be able to get jobs? Also, what would my pay look like? I'm not looking to become rich, but I do live in a very high cost area (NYC) and need a decent salary.
> 
> I ran this idea by my father and he said it would be hard to have a good career as a non union electrician. He is a not an electriican, but he works in commercial real estate so he knows plenty of union tradesmen very well. He instead suggested I become a HVAC technician. Would this be a good idea or is it better to be a non union electrician?
> 
> Thanks for your advice!


Asking that question will get you different answers from different people. There is no real right answer. The right answer if how you feel about your future. As you know times are not very good right now. Many people are out of work. If you were to go the union route in NYC I don't believe the test will be given out for another 2 years or so. (For Local 3). But let's say for a minute that you are able to start as a Local 3 electrician tomorrow.. the starting salary is $11.00 an hour. Call up the hall and let them know you are interested. Keep an eye out for when the test is given and until then either continue your education or get a job doing something else. Or if you can do both. 

Honestly if you want to be in the electrical field go to college for electrical engineering. If you were to come into local 3 with a degree in that you would may start out at 3rd or 4th year rate. And you could go further in career. Union or non.


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## Donald11

So a related degree will help me find employment both inside and outside the union? Also, does it matter whether I get an electrical engineering or an electrical engineering technology degree for the purpose of being an electrician? Because from what I have heard, an EET degree is a watered-down EE degree. And if I am not going to be an engineer, I would rather get the EET degree.


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## splitphase

slickvic277 said:


> Become a plumber. Way to many electricians. Plumbers never run out of SH*T to do.:whistling2:


 
And NYC Local 1 Plumbers now make more than electricians !!!!


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## MDShunk

Donald11 said:


> So a related degree will help me find employment both inside and outside the union? Also, does it matter whether I get an electrical engineering or an electrical engineering technology degree for the purpose of being an electrician? Because from what I have heard, an EET degree is a watered-down EE degree. And if I am not going to be an engineer, I would rather get the EET degree.


EET, or "Beet Tech" is what I have, and I regret it. For a little more, you can be an actual EE. Something to think about. It's not what you want to do right now, but all the things you might want to do later. The body only holds out so long.


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## slickvic277

splitphase said:


> And NYC Local 1 Plumbers now make more than electricians !!!!



Wow!!!! I guess you don't have to worry about sh*t rollin' down hill when your on top.


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## Chris21

splitphase said:


> And NYC Local 1 Plumbers now make more than electricians !!!!




Yes they do. A $1.11 on the check. But the electricians get more on their bennies. A few trades make more on the check than electricians that's nothing new.


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## slickvic277

Chris21 said:


> Yes they do. A $1.11 on the check. But the electricians get more on their bennies. A few trades make more on the check than electricians that's nothing new.



Are your assessments high? Compared to the other trades?


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## splitphase

miller_elex said:


> I was doing HVAC, then went electrician, and now do the energy management / temp control. Its thah bomb sh1t.
> 
> The guys who do the concentric bends in the big pipe and pull big wire laugh at the hvac control guys, until they are humbled by the complexity of an hvac controls install. I think controls is more stimulating.
> 
> To the OP: hit the non-union apprenticeship, so you can accumulate construction hours and residential hours while you apply for the union program. Not all your hours will count, but it is well worth it to see how both sides do business. There are stereotypes of union and non-union contractors, but the only one that is true across the board is: at non-union contractors everyone is suspicious about who gets paid more, and who is sucking up at the office. There is no true stereotype about quality of work.
> 
> Go find a residential new construction shop and rope houses for six months. It is a MUST to learn circuitry. There should also be a mandatory tour at a residential remodel shop. Then go get your commercial on, TI and core and shell jobs. As an apprentice you want to see as much variety as possible, yet be in one place long enough to make sure it soaks in: its a tough balance.


 

Millie ex.,

Why dont you go back to being a tin knocker. Controls are taught in IBEW App. programs.... Everyone has to take it. We have companies that do controls only. There is no such thing as a non-union apprenticeship program approved by any state or Govt. entity. I know, I was in one before I was in the IBEW, It was a total joke, counted towards nothing, and was only being used as an excuse by my employer to be able to bid on Prevailing Rate jobs..... In the end it all got shoved up his ass. He still lost.

Why are you telling this guy he cant do controls if he goes union?????


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## Chris21

Donald11 said:


> So a related degree will help me find employment both inside and outside the union? Also, does it matter whether I get an electrical engineering or an electrical engineering technology degree for the purpose of being an electrician? Because from what I have heard, an EET degree is a watered-down EE degree. And if I am not going to be an engineer, I would rather get the EET degree.



I would go with the EE. Education is the key to success. But understand that if you want to become an electrician without any job experience you're going to be at the bottom. The education part will help you in the long run. I can't speak for non-union but if you were to go union and had a degree in EE you would most likely start out at a higher rate in pay and (as far as Local 3 goes) you wouldn't have to go through the whole college portion of the apprenticeship. 

Do what you think is best for you. Working in the trades has it's ups and downs. You may not always be employed. Times get slow. But like I said being educated will help you move up in the business.


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## Chris21

slickvic277 said:


> Are your assessments high? Compared to the other trades?



I honestly don't know what ours are compared to other locals (trades). I'm going to guess and say no. Our dues are pretty low to be honest with you IMO. And our assessments (don't know them off hand right now) aren't so so high.


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## miller_elex

splitphase said:


> Controls are taught in IBEW App. programs.... Everyone has to take it. We have companies that do controls only. There is no such thing as a non-union apprenticeship program approved by any state or Govt. entity.
> Why are you telling this guy he cant do controls if he goes union?????


I must need to take a communication course, because I don't know HOW you came up with that considering what I said.

RE the IBEW apprenticeship and controls: The PLC and Motor Controls class, including instrumentation, in the apprenticeship, doesn't count squat towards HVAC controls, maybe it helps to know what an in and an out is, that's about it. There was a one day introduction to HVAC.

RE non-union apprenticeships: Oregon has only two apprenticeships, the union and the non-union, and there is only one non-union allowed in each region. It keeps the quality high, and everyone must be an apprentice, if you're not in one program, then you're in the other, regardless of who you work for, no 'helpers' or 'mechanics' allowed, even in the non-union. You all back east should learn from this.

RE telling the guy he can't do controls: I never said that, its just that typically you don't go there unless you start out in controls, and that doesn't happen unless you know someone or got a real pretty mouth.


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## Frasbee

splitphase said:


> There is no such thing as a non-union apprenticeship program approved by any state or Govt. entity. I know, I was in one before I was in the IBEW


You are naive.


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## Donald11

EE degrees are notoriously difficult so I was hoping to avoid it. In an EE program, you would have to take 3 semesters of calculus, physics, chemistry, and a lot of other advanced topics. EE is considered to be the hardest of all the engineering majors.


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## nitro71

College kids don't usually last at the trades to be honest. If I were you I'd look at getting another degree, masters or finding a job in your degree field. Feel free to jump in the electrical business but it's hard, dirty work for the most part. Mostly you'll work with dim wits that think they are electricians but never crack a code book. You'll get laid off. You'll have to work in the cold, snow, rain and heat. You'll get injured. If that all sounds like you might just like it then get to job hunting! PS: don't pay for a electrician school, waste of money.


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## Donald11

Yes, I'm aware that most trades are hard work. But I currently have a "white collar" job and hate it. I would rather do something interesting and get my hands dirty.


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## Donald11

So what's the best way to become an electrician in NYC other than the union? Unfortunately, there is no ABC chapter in NYC. Am I screwed?


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## slickvic277

Donald11 said:


> Yes, I'm aware that most trades are hard work. But I currently have a "white collar" job and hate it. I would rather do something interesting and get my hands dirty.


What about 2 shoulder surgery's in less then a year's time, all by the time your 30. Carpal tunnel, sh*t pay for the first 4 or five years, asshole bosses who power trip, up at 4-5 am, far drives, lunch box meals 5+ day's a week, freezing cold, 95 degree heat, filthy hands, steel toe boots, dirty clothes, over flowing sh*tters, heavy tools, heavy equipment, heavy material, and no promise of steady work.

And that's not even the bad parts.

Can you hack it?


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## slickvic277

slickvic277 said:


> What about 2 shoulder surgery's in less then a year's time, all by the time your 30. Carpal tunnel, sh*t pay for the first 4 or five years, asshole bosses who power trip, up at 4-5 am, far drives, lunch box meals 5+ day's a week, freezing cold, 95 degree heat, filthy hands, steel toe boots, dirty clothes, over flowing sh*tters, heavy tools, heavy equipment, heavy material, and no promise of steady work.
> 
> And that's not even the bad parts.
> 
> Can you hack it?



Hey Donald, I'm not trying to scare you away. Just making you aware of what it is. I see to many "kids" thinking this **** is a cake walk. It aint.


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## miller_elex

If you ain't a man's man Donald, I'd look into butt wiping, it can be awful fulfilling.


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## brian john

Donald11 said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> 
> I ran this idea by my father and he said it would be hard to have a good career as a non union electrician. He is a not an electriican, but he works in commercial real estate so he knows plenty of union tradesmen very well. He instead suggested I become a HVAC technician. Would this be a good idea or is it better to be a non union electrician?
> 
> Thanks for your advice!



So the option is work open shop or work at?????? Seems working open shop beats anything else at this time. You can get in the union later and if you are in an area where the union management DOES NOT have it heads up it's ass, your time or some of your time in the open shop will count towards your placement in the union.

Seems a simple concept to me.


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## Donald11

slickvic277 said:


> What about 2 shoulder surgery's in less then a year's time, all by the time your 30. Carpal tunnel, sh*t pay for the first 4 or five years, asshole bosses who power trip, up at 4-5 am, far drives, lunch box meals 5+ day's a week, freezing cold, 95 degree heat, filthy hands, steel toe boots, dirty clothes, over flowing sh*tters, heavy tools, heavy equipment, heavy material, and no promise of steady work.
> 
> And that's not even the bad parts.
> 
> Can you hack it?


Well, those things don't sound appealing, but most of them apply to most professions. So you can't avoid them.


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## Donald11

So do I have any pathways to becoming an electrician besides the union and ABC? It seems that going to a trade school/ community colelge is my only option. But I don't want to graduate and have no job.


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## brian john

slickvic277 said:


> What about 2 shoulder surgery's in less then a year's time, all by the time your 30. Carpal tunnel, sh*t pay for the first 4 or five years, asshole bosses who power trip, up at 4-5 am, far drives, lunch box meals 5+ day's a week, freezing cold, 95 degree heat, filthy hands, steel toe boots, dirty clothes, over flowing sh*tters, heavy tools, heavy equipment, heavy material, and no promise of steady work.
> 
> And that's not even the bad parts.
> 
> Can you hack it?


40 years in the trade and I seemed to have missed this bus.

How about good insurance to pay for any injuries, good friends that I still keep in touch with from my first years in the trade, goo pay from day one (paid cash for my first car at 18), plenty of fresh air, the ability to move around the country and a respectable profession.


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## oldtimer

Donald11 said:


> So do I have any pathways to becoming an electrician besides the union and ABC? It seems that going to a trade school/ community colelge is my only option. But I don't want to graduate and have no job.


You are Not, and will Not, be entitled, to a job. You will have to earn a job.

You will have to work for low pay, and do all the sh*t stuff for a while.

If you can tough it, you will become A TRADESMAN. I honestly wish you the best of luck.

The choice is yours to make.


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## minibdr

Hey Splitphase the plumbers get more pay in the check but the package is a little less.As for abc being here in NYC they tried and couldn't`t play with the big boys. Miller as for control work it is taught in the apprenticeship as well as so many other fascist of the industry. In five and a half years of school and work towards your education paid for by the contractors the IBEW apprenticeship is regarded as the best way to get the education needed to be a top quality journeyman. Someone in this thread hit the nail on the head; most of the people posting here are contractors or owner operators so there opinions are very anti union yet none of them pay there men or educate there men to any level that even comes remotely close to what the IBEW does yet they find ways to attempt to belittle the group that works to advance the electrical worker skills and quality of life enjoyed by union men. Local 3 NYC has a one percent dues for that you get 51 dollars an hour in the check plus a pension plan an annuity plan a 401 plan that also has contractor contributions made to it full medical even when you are not working with optical,dental,hearing aid chiropractor along with mental health for the entire family. We have legal benefits such as house closing for free or estate planning /wills encluded.We have continuing education for all members so if you change direction in the industry you can get or keep up with what you are doing at your pace all free. So if you go from control work which we have many apprentices doing say with Johnson control or WellsFargo and you move into street lighting traffic controls you will be re educated. Also mentioned here was how you make friends that last a life time of professionals in the industry you chose to be a part of. Well Donald it sounds like you are leaning towards being a non union electrician in NYC good luck with that let me know when you find what I have maybe I`ll come join you NOT Now bob badger and all the other non union maggots can belittle my post and tell you how great they are and how going into a union where we will train you give you the opportunity to advance all the way to owner if you wish and I`ve seen that is a bad choice. That is another way of seeing how bitter they are for not making the right choice.


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## oldtimer

minibdr said:


> Hey Splitphase the plumbers get more pay in the check but the package is a little less.As for abc being here in NYC they tried and couldn't`t play with the big boys. Miller as for control work it is taught in the apprenticeship as well as so many other fascist of the industry. In five and a half years of school and work towards your education paid for by the contractors the IBEW apprenticeship is regarded as the best way to get the education needed to be a top quality journeyman. Someone in this thread hit the nail on the head; most of the people posting here are contractors or owner operators so there opinions are very anti union yet none of them pay there men or educate there men to any level that even comes remotely close to what the IBEW does yet they find ways to attempt to belittle the group that works to advance the electrical worker skills and quality of life enjoyed by union men. Local 3 NYC has a one percent dues for that you get 51 dollars an hour in the check plus a pension plan an annuity plan a 401 plan that also has contractor contributions made to it full medical even when you are not working with optical,dental,hearing aid chiropractor along with mental health for the entire family. We have legal benefits such as house closing for free or estate planning /wills encluded.We have continuing education for all members so if you change direction in the industry you can get or keep up with what you are doing at your pace all free. So if you go from control work which we have many apprentices doing say with Johnson control or WellsFargo and you move into street lighting traffic controls you will be re educated. Also mentioned here was how you make friends that last a life time of professionals in the industry you chose to be a part of. Well Donald it sounds like you are leaning towards being a non union electrician in NYC good luck with that let me know when you find what I have maybe I`ll come join you NOT Now bob badger and all the other non union maggots can belittle my post and tell you how great they are and how going into a union where we will train you give you the opportunity to advance all the way to owner if you wish and I`ve seen that is a bad choice. That is another way of seeing how bitter they are for not making the right choice.


WOW!!! All that with no punctuation. PRETTY GOOD.:laughing::laughing:


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## Southeast Power

minibdr said:


> hey splitphase the plumbers get more pay in the check but the package is a little less.
> 
> As for abc being here in nyc they tried and couldn't`t play with the big boys. Miller as for control work it is taught in the apprenticeship as well as so many other fascist of the industry.
> 
> In five and a half years of school and work towards your education paid for by the contractors the ibew apprenticeship is regarded as the best way to get the education needed to be a top quality journeyman.
> 
> Someone in this thread hit the nail on the head; most of the people posting here are contractors or owner operators so there opinions are very anti union yet none of them pay there men or educate there men to any level that even comes remotely close to what the ibew does yet they find ways to attempt to belittle the group that works to advance the electrical worker skills and quality of life enjoyed by union men.
> 
> Local 3 nyc has a one percent dues for that you get *51 dollars an hour in the check plus a pension plan an annuity plan a 401 plan* that also has contractor contributions made to it full medical even when you are not working with optical,dental,hearing aid chiropractor along with mental health for the entire family.
> We have legal benefits such as house closing for free or estate planning /wills encluded.we have continuing education for all members so if you change direction in the industry you can get or keep up with what you are doing at your pace all free.
> So, if you go from control work, which we have many apprentices doing say with johnson control or wellsfargo, and you move into street lighting traffic controls you will be re educated.
> 
> Also mentioned here was how you make friends that last a life time of professionals in the industry you chose to be a part of.
> 
> Well donald, it sounds like you are leaning towards being a non union electrician in nyc :laughing: Good luck with that :thumbsup: Let me know when you find what i have, maybe i`ll come join you not "bendover" bob badger and all the other non union maggots can belittle my post and tell you how great they are and how going into a union where we will train you give you the opportunity to advance all the way to owner if you wish and i`ve seen that is a bad choice.
> That is another way of seeing how bitter they are for not making the right choice.


...............




.


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## Chris21

jrannis said:


> ...............
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .



That's actually not the correct number right now. But there is a small raise in the new contract over the next 4 years.


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## brian john

Chris21 said:


> That's actually not the correct number right now. But there is a small raise in the new contract over the next 4 years.


 
Which is VERY NICE if you are working.


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## slickvic277

*brian john;*



> 40 years in the trade and I seemed to have missed this bus


Yeah, none of what I posted was true. It's all a lie. Work is easy, your never in the elements, and everyone will treat you with respect and dignity. Especially working non union. 



> How about good insurance to pay for any injuries


,

If your union then yes defitnitly. If your not union, maybe, maybe not.



> good friends that I still keep in touch with from my first years in the trade,


Of course there's big positives and this is one of them. But I was also letting him know about the negatives. If anyone denies what I said about being true, well there just kidding themselves.



> good pay from day one (paid cash for my first car at 18), plenty of fresh air,


Really? Good pay from day one. That's a crock of sh*t. Even in the local being a first year apprentice is challenging. Big deal an 18 year old bought a car cash. That doesn't mean you were making great money. It just means you were 18.



> the ability to move around the country and a respectable profession


 
Again, one of the positives. I already explained that I was informing him of the inevitable negatives of our business. To many guy's walk in to this business ill informed. I was enlighting him:thumbsup:

FWIW, all the negatives included the positives out weigh them all. But it's not for everyone.


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## Southeast Power

BTW Vic,

Brian is a contractor and has a nice business due to hard work and sacrifice. This has been his experience. That could be an exception but from what I personally know, it works. :thumbsup:


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## brian john

slickvic277 said:


> *brian john;*
> 
> Yeah, none of what I posted was true. It's all a lie. Work is easy, your never in the elements, and everyone will treat you with respect and dignity. Especially working non union.
> 
> FWIW, all the negatives included the positives out weigh them all. But it's not for everyone.


 
Nah...Some guys do well and others suffer, has a lot to do with your gene's and the type of work you do, backs really take a beating. When I did work winters outside (which I did not hate), my thumbs cracked on the tips.

All my injuries come from accidents at home, not at work.




> FWIW, all the negatives included the positives out weigh them all. But it's not for everyone.


Summer in a ditch, winter on a deck and if you survive that you are fit for anything. Made me want to get into service and testing.

I love my job and while I do own a company I have men in the office to handle that STUFF, I am mostly in the field


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## slickvic277

jrannis said:


> BTW Vic,
> 
> Brian is a contractor and has a nice business due to hard work and sacrifice. This has been his experience. That could be an exception but from what I personally know, it works. :thumbsup:



I know. And by no means am I knockin that or him. But the realities of a contractor and the average construction electrician are two different things.
I think my post was lost in translation.

This site has been seeing an influx of potential future electricians. I think there's a misconception that the electrical trade is easy and a guarantee to great financial security.

While the trade is great and offers endless opportunity I don't think it's easy nor a guarantee. And that was my point.


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## voltz

Here is last years prevailing rates for your area 

JOB DESCRIPTION Electrician DISTRICT 9
ENTIRE COUNTIES
Bronx, Kings, New York, Queens, Richmond
WAGES

Per Hour: 07/01/2008 05/14/2009

Electrician $ 47.00 $ 49.00

Audio/Sound/Tele/Data 47.00 49.00
Shift Work:
A night shift may be provided with a minimum of five (5) days work on the night shift, Monday through Friday.
Swing Shift:
4:30pm-12:30am $ 55.15 $ 57.49
Graveyard Shift:
12:30am-8:00am $ 61.77 $ 64.40

Prevailing Wage Rates for 07/01/2008 - 06/30/2009 Published by the New 

SUPPLEMENTAL BENEFITS

Journeyman $ 39.24 $ 40.71
One (1) year terms at the following rate
07/01/2008 05/14/2009
1st term... $ 13.75 $ 13.75
2nd term... $ 16.55 $ 16.55
3rd term... $ 18.65 $ 18.65
4th term... $ 20.60 $ 20.60
MIJ (5th term)... $ 25.30 $ 25.30
Wages Per


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## gold

minibdr said:


> Hey Splitphase the plumbers get more pay in the check but the package is a little less.As for abc being here in NYC they tried and couldn't`t play with the big boys. Miller as for control work it is taught in the apprenticeship as well as so many other fascist of the industry. In five and a half years of school and work towards your education paid for by the contractors the IBEW apprenticeship is regarded as the best way to get the education needed to be a top quality journeyman. Someone in this thread hit the nail on the head; most of the people posting here are contractors or owner operators so there opinions are very anti union yet none of them pay there men or educate there men to any level that even comes remotely close to what the IBEW does yet they find ways to attempt to belittle the group that works to advance the electrical worker skills and quality of life enjoyed by union men. Local 3 NYC has a one percent dues for that you get 51 dollars an hour in the check plus a pension plan an annuity plan a 401 plan that also has contractor contributions made to it full medical even when you are not working with optical,dental,hearing aid chiropractor along with mental health for the entire family. We have legal benefits such as house closing for free or estate planning /wills encluded.We have continuing education for all members so if you change direction in the industry you can get or keep up with what you are doing at your pace all free. So if you go from control work which we have many apprentices doing say with Johnson control or WellsFargo and you move into street lighting traffic controls you will be re educated. Also mentioned here was how you make friends that last a life time of professionals in the industry you chose to be a part of. Well Donald it sounds like you are leaning towards being a non union electrician in NYC good luck with that let me know when you find what I have maybe I`ll come join you NOT Now bob badger and all the other non union maggots can belittle my post and tell you how great they are and how going into a union where we will train you give you the opportunity to advance all the way to owner if you wish and I`ve seen that is a bad choice. That is another way of seeing how bitter they are for not making the right choice.


No Bias in that post.


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## minibdr

Bias the Bias you here is the bias of a man that wants the quality of life for the men in his industry to be able to live in the middle class financial range. The contractors on here praise hard work and low pay as a badge of respect for being in the electrical business and if you can make it someday you can own your own business and lowball your employees. The union guys work hard they make money and there contractors make money. I think a little sharing the wealth is respectful. I would never let a contractor abuse me financialy and wish the same rewards for hard work for as many men in our industry as can get it. abc on there web page brag and attempt to advance the "cause " of the illegal immigrants is living proof of there unamerican unworker stance on the labor pool they want American business to have. Anyone who buys that crap deserves to be employed by them. The ONLY reason apprentiships exsist is the unions the rat contractors would be happy with endentured servants.


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## jwjrw

minibdr said:


> Bias the Bias you here is the bias of a man that wants the quality of life for the men in his industry to be able to live in the middle class financial range. The contractors on here praise hard work and low pay as a badge of respect for being in the electrical business and if you can make it someday you can own your own business and lowball your employees. The union guys work hard they make money and there contractors make money. I think a little sharing the wealth is respectful. I would never let a contractor abuse me financialy and wish the same rewards for hard work for as many men in our industry as can get it. abc on there web page brag and attempt to advance the "cause " of the illegal immigrants is living proof of there unamerican unworker stance on the labor pool they want American business to have. Anyone who buys that crap deserves to be employed by them. The ONLY reason apprentiships exsist is the unions the rat contractors would be happy with endentured servants.


 

Another one that has been drinking the Kool Aid I see...:laughing:


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## robnj772

jwjrw said:


> Another one that has been drinking the Kool Aid I see...:laughing:


 
Yea MINI Balls **** Rectum is a troll that won't go away


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## robnj772

minibdr said:


> Bias the Bias you here is the bias of a man that wants the quality of life for the men in his industry to be able to live in the middle class financial range. The contractors on here praise hard work and low pay as a badge of respect for being in the electrical business and if you can make it someday you can own your own business and lowball your employees. The union guys work hard they make money and there contractors make money. I think a little sharing the wealth is respectful. I would never let a contractor abuse me financialy and wish the same rewards for hard work for as many men in our industry as can get it. abc on there web page brag and attempt to advance the "cause " of the illegal immigrants is living proof of there unamerican unworker stance on the labor pool they want American business to have. Anyone who buys that crap deserves to be employed by them. The ONLY reason apprentiships exsist is the unions the rat contractors would be happy with endentured servants.


 
WAHHH WAHHH WAAHHH You sound like Charile Brown's teacher


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## Chris21

robnj772 said:


> WAHHH WAHHH WAAHHH You sound like Charile Brown's teacher


Mr. Moderator Mr. Moderator robnj is picking on mini close the thread. Wouldn't want anyone's feelings to get hurt like you know who... :jester:


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## jwjrw

Where's that dern Wambalance when ya need it????:laughing:


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## Chris21

voltz said:


> Here is last years prevailing rates for your area
> 
> JOB DESCRIPTION Electrician DISTRICT 9
> ENTIRE COUNTIES
> Bronx, Kings, New York, Queens, Richmond
> WAGES
> 
> Per Hour: 07/01/2008 05/14/2009
> 
> Electrician $ 47.00 $ 49.00
> 
> Audio/Sound/Tele/Data 47.00 49.00
> Shift Work:
> A night shift may be provided with a minimum of five (5) days work on the night shift, Monday through Friday.
> Swing Shift:
> 4:30pm-12:30am $ 55.15 $ 57.49
> Graveyard Shift:
> 12:30am-8:00am $ 61.77 $ 64.40
> 
> Prevailing Wage Rates for 07/01/2008 - 06/30/2009 Published by the New
> 
> SUPPLEMENTAL BENEFITS
> 
> Journeyman $ 39.24 $ 40.71
> One (1) year terms at the following rate
> 07/01/2008 05/14/2009
> 1st term... $ 13.75 $ 13.75
> 2nd term... $ 16.55 $ 16.55
> 3rd term... $ 18.65 $ 18.65
> 4th term... $ 20.60 $ 20.60
> MIJ (5th term)... $ 25.30 $ 25.30
> Wages Per




Those apprentice rates at the bottom went down. 1st year rate is $11.00 and the rest went down also. The MIJ rate stayed the same. And those shift rates are incorrect, it's lower. What site did you get that info from? Just curious.


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## robnj772

Chris21 said:


> Mr. Moderator Mr. Moderator robnj is picking on mini close the thread. Wouldn't want anyone's feelings to get hurt like you know who... :jester:


 
Don't drag me into your tight panty party with that John Valdes guy.

I gave up female teenage drama when I left High school


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## brian john

slickvic277 said:


> I know. And by no means am I knockin that or him. But the realities of a contractor and the average construction electrician are two different things.
> I think my post was lost in translation.
> 
> .


I understood I just did not want the OP to think it is all bad.

After my first incredibly hot summer I spent a winter on a deck, coldest winter in DC for a century. I looked around that winter, with me were several old men in bad shape, a drunk a downer freak and a foreman that stayed in the shed. I knew then I need to learn as much as I could and move on. I watched for what seemed like easier jobs, like fire alarm and controls. Luckily I fell into service and landed in testing.

But early on I knew construction would take a toll on me I did not want to endure into my 40's or 50's


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## captkirk

I vote this the gayest thread to date....


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## captkirk

slickvic277 said:


> I know. And by no means am I knockin that or him. But the realities of a contractor and the average construction electrician are two different things.
> I think my post was lost in translation.
> 
> This site has been seeing an influx of potential future electricians. I think there's a misconception that the electrical trade is easy and a guarantee to great financial security.
> 
> While the trade is great and offers endless opportunity I don't think it's easy nor a guarantee. And that was my point.


I agree.......
construction electricians are a dime a dozen....So with that being said why are so many guys surprised to find out that they are not going to be making 75$ an hour and have full life time bennies...?


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## miller_elex

oldtimer said:


> you will become A TRADESMAN.


That sounds like 'HANDYMAN' to me. Not sure why, like some guy who sets tile and floats hot mud.


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## slickvic277

captkirk said:


> *I agree.......*
> *construction electricians are a dime a dozen*....So with that being said why are so many guys surprised to find out that they are not going to be making 75$ an hour and have full life time bennies...?



I never said that.

75$ for total package with benefits is not unreasonable. If it was, we wouldn't have had full employment over the last 12 years.(excluding the last 2).

I think what surprises people is how incredibly cheap most contractors are.
Just a quick browse through the job listings is laughable. The contractors want you to be able to do anything and everything for poverty level wages.

No thanks, I'll pass. 

The bottom line is, I and the other 4000+ members of my local can make these wages and the contractors are still making money hand over fist. We have millionaire contractors who employee 100's and millionaire contractors who employee 12 regulars.

When the day comes that we (my local) can no longer get a single job and turn a profit for the contractor, then I'll agree we're asking for too much money.

And not until then.


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## slickvic277

brian john said:


> I understood I just did not want the OP to think it is all bad.
> 
> After my first incredibly hot summer I spent a winter on a deck, coldest winter in DC for a century. I looked around that winter, with me were several old men in bad shape, a drunk a downer freak and a foreman that stayed in the shed. I knew then I need to learn as much as I could and move on. I watched for what seemed like easier jobs, like fire alarm and controls. Luckily I fell into service and landed in testing.
> 
> But early on I knew construction would take a toll on me I did not want to endure into my 40's or 50's




Man oh man. I'm currently having the same epiphany. I always kept myself in good shape and always was mindful of how I treated my body on the job site. Even with that I still ended up hurt. I'm at a crossroads with what I want to accomplish in this trade. Right now I'm studying up on control work and have some other opportunities that I'm exploring while I recover.

But this is a great post and hit the nail on the head.


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## voltz

Chris21 said:


> Those apprentice rates at the bottom went down. 1st year rate is $11.00 and the rest went down also. The MIJ rate stayed the same. And those shift rates are incorrect, it's lower. What site did you get that info from? Just curious.


NYS dept of labors web site- those are the rates for the period stated


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## miller_elex

slickvic277 said:


> I'm currently having the same epiphany.


What? You mean you won't pull a half-mile of MC in a day when you're fifty?


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## slickvic277

miller_elex said:


> What? You mean you won't pull a half-mile of MC in a day when you're fifty?



Hopefully when I'm 50, the last thing I'll be thinking about is MC.


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## Frasbee

miller_elex said:


> What? You mean you won't pull a half-mile of MC in a day when you're fifty?


MC?? We'll have wireless energy by then!


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## minibdr

robbernj has a right to his opion. If he feels that electricians shouldn`t be compensated properly for there labor thats fine. He gets the labor pool that his rates apply to which is poor to say the least. As for captdirt if construction electricians are a dime a dozen it`s because thats the level of expertize you are used to seeing at your level of profesionalizm which again I will compare to a lower lever of skill than should be expected by a paying constomer.


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## zappedjack21

captkirk said:


> Working in the hot, cold, dirty, dusty enviorments is prestigious to you....? LOL ............:laughing:
> 
> Im non union and I make a great living.....but then again who friggin cares.......LOL


 
Im sick and tired of hearing about this and its very true about the Unions and Non Unions. I ve worked non union my who life and earn a decent living expecially when you have allot of side work. You might make less money working non union but they have all the benifits you need 401Ks 529 plans for your kids the whole nine yards. Same with the union they say pay rate in union is 57.50 an hour in Boston 3 years ago but they work 6 months and layed off and always dealing with politics. Non Union is more stable work commercialy and dont have to worry about getting layed of if you show up everyday and on time. It also depends on who you work for. Good luck to all apprentices that are looking.. when you learing electrical your gonna end up doing HVAC along the way so just do electrical.


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## minibdr

Zapp don`t make it sound like all union guys work six months then don`t for six. There are a percentage that this happens to and it is smaller than the whole. The guys that don`t work all year do enjkoy the benefit of keeping there medical while waiting for things to pick up as well as accumulating pension credits. I agree that your choice of non union has it`s up`s also like freedoms of chosing a contractor or a job. Just don`t think all men are out half the year because it`s not true. I have men in my shop that have never been out of work.


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## zappedjack21

minibdr said:


> Zapp don`t make it sound like all union guys work six months then don`t for six. There are a percentage that this happens to and it is smaller than the whole. The guys that don`t work all year do enjkoy the benefit of keeping there medical while waiting for things to pick up as well as accumulating pension credits. I agree that your choice of non union has it`s up`s also like freedoms of chosing a contractor or a job. Just don`t think all men are out half the year because it`s not true. I have men in my shop that have never been out of work.


 
Thats cool I meant for some in general not most. I take that back but in the long run your can do well on both ends. It all depends on who you work for. I see your in NY so thats nice work in Manhatton and there's always work but dealing with the traffic is another thing to deal with..


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## robnj772

minibdr said:


> robbernj has a right to his opion. If he feels that electricians shouldn`t be compensated properly for there labor thats fine. He gets the labor pool that his rates apply to which is poor to say the least. As for captdirt if construction electricians are a dime a dozen it`s because thats the level of expertize you are used to seeing at your level of profesionalizm which again I will compare to a lower lever of skill than should be expected by a paying constomer.


 
Hey MiniBALLS the only opinion( notice how it is spelled properly) was that you sounded like Charlie Browns f-in teacher.

WHAAAAW WHAAAA WHAAAA

Have you ever once in your 87 posts on this forum EVER gave some input other then you kool aid union rhetoric?

If you are all that why is your spelling and grammar equivalent to a 4th grade education?

If your on here particpating in various discussions thats fine but if all you are going to do spew your brainwashed union rants then you are nothing but a TROLL!!!!!!!!!

Which is a complete waste of time because no matter what anyone says no one is ever going to change their mind on this topic.


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## brian john

First off I believe if you are a worker generally working union is the way to go, you get the most money for your labor, you get decent H&W and you get portable retirement that follows you from day one to retirement.

IMO it is hard to beat working union, there are some great open shops but in general union shops are best for the masses. So I am not posting this to bash the union. The union (in my area) has some of the best and the brightest in our trade due to the consistently better wages and benefits, but the union also hides some of the biggest slackers I have ever seen.

Typically the slackers are some of the biggest mouths pushing the union and it's superior work force, training and throwing around terms like rat and scab to open shop men trying to support themselves and their families. Which is one reason I really get pissed at some union members, the un-secessary name calling and crappy attitudes.

My question in all this is, some of the die-hard union men post their superior training and skills why do they NEVER post anything in the electrical portion of this forum. You are so much better, put that knowledge to work help a brother out. Or is my experience being proved, just another loud mouth slacker?

There are many union mem on this site that post in all sections and are strong union supporters, then there are the union big mouths.


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## BuzzKill

Maybe we should start placing bets on how long this thread will remain open until Speedy closes it. 
I'll give it 125-150.


----------



## minibdr

Until he gets tired of robnjswampsmells rude responces. Hey if I wanted an english exam grade I would have become a teacher. I am an electrician that knows what he is worth and expects to be paid that. You as a rat contractor are threatened by that. Shame because we want to be to be the best so our contractors can be the best which they are. Why else would they sign a contract to pay us so well? That bothers you doesn`t it? Waaaa waaaaa now biatch


----------



## robnj772

minibdr said:


> Until he gets tired of robnjswampsmells rude responces. Hey if I wanted an english exam grade I would have become a teacher. I am an electrician that knows what he is worth and expects to be paid that. You as a rat contractor are threatened by that. Shame because we want to be to be the best so our contractors can be the best which they are. Why else would they sign a contract to pay us so well? That bothers you doesn`t it? Waaaa waaaaa now biatch


 
Apparently your reading comprehension skills are even worse then your spelling.

Did you happen to read Brian's post which is very good and I believe paragraphs 3 and 4 have your name written all over them.


----------



## Bob Badger

minibdr said:


> Why else would they sign a contract to pay us so well?


Gee I don't know, maybe the fact that they have little choice or to be blunt they have been extorted.


----------



## BuzzKill

Bob's Badger said:


> Sounds like union bashing to me!!!!


BrianJohn is union, dolt.


----------



## robnj772

Didn't there used to be a way to ignore someone?

I don't want my daughter to walk in and see this trolls hairy ass.

I think Nathan and speedy should remove the union section and ban all talk of this union non union crap then the trolls would have to find somewhere else.


----------



## Chris21

robnj772 said:


> Didn't there used to be a way to ignore someone?
> 
> I don't want my daughter to walk in and see this trolls hairy ass.
> 
> I think Nathan and speedy should remove the union section and ban all talk of this union non union crap then the trolls would have to find somewhere else.



Or it could stay and you could just not post in it and ignore it and pretend it doesn't exist.


----------

