# Difference between books?



## qckrun

I have always wondered what the differences of the books mean?

Are book 1 people the top tier of the union guys, book 2 a step down, book 3 the losers?

How do locals/ the union work who is on what books?


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## Minuteman

Book 1 is for local members.

Book 2 is for members from other locals.

Book 3 is for non members.

If an EC is hiring and those on book 1 can't man the job, then those on book 2 may apply. Same thing for book 3 if books 1 & 2 can't fill the jobs


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## MDShunk

I've never heard of a book 3. Is that for stuff like building the Hoover Dam? I thought non-members were the so-called 'book 5', as in "sign here so that we have a nice list of all the people we'd like to organize".


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## Minuteman

MDShunk said:


> I've never heard of a book 3. Is that for stuff like building the Hoover Dam?


I hear that there is even a book 4. Non electricians may sign (like tel/data, LV) but I bet it's a dusty book.


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## Celtic

qckrun said:


> I have always wondered what the differences of the books mean?
> 
> Are book 1 people the top tier of the union guys, book 2 a step down, book 3 the losers?
> 
> How do locals/ the union work who is on what books?


Typically...

Book I are the men from that particular local
Book II are "travelers"..men from other locals
Book III are local apprentices
Book IV are people off the street....not necessarily hobos :blink:, but men who are not in the Union.


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## leland

Wouldn't book 4 violate some rule?
if not. I would have a slite conniption! If they hired such.

But then again...We are just whores... so whats it matter.

I would like to think...(thats rare these days)....
That only a LOCAL electrician would get the work.
Look around (wink,wink) How many 'Travelers' are working.

Tons in BOSTON. (sure we're not alone) Look around and ask!

Gonna get ugly soon!:whistling2:


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## MDShunk

leland said:


> Wouldn't book 4 violate some rule?
> if not. I would have a slite conniption! If they hired such.
> 
> But then again...We are just whores... so whats it matter.
> 
> I would like to think...(thats rare these days)....
> That only a LOCAL electrician would get the work.
> Look around (wink,wink) How many 'Travelers' are working.
> 
> Tons in BOSTON. (sure we're not alone) Look around and ask!
> 
> Gonna get ugly soon!:whistling2:


I always thought they were supposed to call in book order? Are you saying that doesn't always happen? :whistling2:


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## traveler

Yep...you wanna see some anger....watch book 1 guys sitting at the hall while a book 2 hand is still on a call......some think he should be replaced by a book 1 hand, some don't.

I tend to think, that as a traveler, if a book 1 hand needs the job, it's time to hit the road. First off, you are a GUEST in that local, second....depending on the local, if you don't leave on your own, they will get you laid off or fired, and you won't get another call out of that hall for LIFE.

When you go out on book 2, it is only until the local hands need work. Book 2 hands that stay past a year and "jam" their ticket in that local to "force" that local into making them a book 1 hand.....usually end up despised. and they will make sure to set you up....so if you want to be a book 1 hand somewhere YOU ASK....PERIOD!

Reputation is everything in the IBEW. Make a bad name for yourself, and it is like treading water with a lead weight around your neck....you got it for life.

Ain't fair, but that's life in the IBEW.

~Joe


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## Bendezium

traveler said:


> Yep...you wanna see some anger....watch book 1 guys sitting at the hall while a book 2 hand is still on a call......some think he should be replaced by a book 1 hand, some don't.
> 
> I tend to think, that as a traveler, if a book 1 hand needs the job, it's time to hit the road. First off, you are a GUEST in that local, second....depending on the local, if you don't leave on your own, they will get you laid off or fired, and you won't get another call out of that hall for LIFE.
> 
> When you go out on book 2, it is only until the local hands need work. Book 2 hands that stay past a year and "jam" their ticket in that local to "force" that local into making them a book 1 hand.....usually end up despised. and they will make sure to set you up....so if you want to be a book 1 hand somewhere YOU ASK....PERIOD!
> 
> Reputation is everything in the IBEW. Make a bad name for yourself, and it is like treading water with a lead weight around your neck....you got it for life.
> 
> Ain't fair, but that's life in the IBEW.
> 
> ~Joe


That doesn't sound much like a "brotherhood" to me.


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## brian john

Years ago I was working on a job with several travelers, the job was winding down and a few of the dead weights were let go. The travelers picked up their tools and asked for pink slips. Saying they would not work when local men were being let go, even though the foreman wanted to keep the travelers.

The travelers left and so did the dead weights, the company brought a few men from another job to assist.


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## mattsilkwood

Bendezium said:


> That doesn't sound much like a "brotherhood" to me.


 That's kinda what i thought.


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## traveler

If you have a brother, and you wnat to sleep with his wife, it's ok right?

I mean, you're brothers right?

ANY type of brotherhood has limits and boundaries.

There are some things you just don't do.....

A GOOD foreman knows better than to lay off local Bro's and keep the travelers.

Might not make sense to anyone outside....but it's called manners to us. YOU'RE A GUEST in OUR home....and you have to know when you are wearing out your welcome.

the guys mentioned above knew that, and that's why they left....and that's why they were still welcome in that local.

~Joe


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## Zog

The book numbers mean different things for different locals, but I think book 1 is the same everywhere. Book 4 in Detroit is HV testing specialists and requires a NETA/NICET testing certification or engineering degree. They were union guys, paid thier dues, sat before the board, etc. Hardly "guys off the street". 

So qckrun, disregard everything you heard here, call your local, and ask them.


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## miller_elex

Book 1 is also for local non-union guys who completed the non-union apprenticeship. Here the non-union does mostly residential, but the licensing and schooling makes their cards good for commercial work too. They have every right to sign Book 1 according to the language, and believe me, when I looked at Book 1, a whole bunch of them signed it when the housing market crapped out. Also, they are still working while they are on Book 1, until they take their first call.

I feel it is total B.S. personally, but that is how the local got alot of its best electricians.


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## Loose Neutral

Our book 1 is local members, Book 2 is for travelers, Book 3 is out of trade. When I was a second year apprentice I got teamed up with this guy for a wire pull and he was asking some pretty simple questions. I'm thinking this is one dumb electrician, come to find out he was a welder working off book 3.


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## user5941

book 3 is "out of class' that is for linemen ,telecom,ect I had to sign book 3 in local 2 when I was working on a transmission site.


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## BDB

rewire said:


> I had to sign book 3 in local 2 when I was working on a transmission site.


Back 1952? :whistling2:


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## Bendezium

traveler said:


> If you have a brother, and you wnat to sleep with his wife, it's ok right?
> 
> I mean, you're brothers right?


I see what you're saying, but that's a real stretch. Sleeping with my brothers wife would be weird and skanky.

However if my brother said "Hey I'm going to be in your neck of the woods for a week/month/year/indefinitely, could you help me get set up with some employment?" I'd say sure, what are you interested in? Do you need a place to crash while you get on your feet?

How would a GOOD foreman differentiate between a "traveler" and someone who has relocated? Is that person still considered an out-of-towner even if he/she and their family made the decision to move to a new local for whatever reason, be it more work, the wife got transfered, better school districts, my kid is sick and I want to be closer to a specialist, or simply I wanted a new change of scenery? And how might that person be treated by the brothers and sisters? 

Don't take this the wrong way, these are not rhetorical questions. I'm genuinely interested because I'm hoping to be accepted into the apprenticeship no matter what the answers are. It just seems against union principle to risk losing a brother to an open shop just because he wasn't born and bread in the local, or for any reason on that matter.


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## Charlie K

The foreman would know who was local and who is travelling. If you and the family move into a new area (state) you are still a traveller until your card is accepted in the area you are working. Transferring your card is not all that easy. 

Charlie


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## user5941

Unionism is about thinking beyond just you and to look at the big picture.


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## traveler

rewire said:


> Unionism is about thinking beyond just you and to look at the big picture.


Yep...and the Big Picture is:

Book 1 hands live in that community, and their money and tax dollars go into THAT community. If work is available, then the first hands who should have it, are the ones who live there and support that community.

Not to mention, if a traveler causes problems, he can just leave and go to the next town.....local hands are more careful not to crap in their own dinner plate.

You move into a community and all that...great! After one year you can apply to be accepted into that local, and then you are a book 1 hand.

Not all book 1 hands went through the apprenticehsip there.....don't let that be a mis-conception.

The only ones who can't understand this are the travelers who were either ran out of town by being blacklisted by their own local or just want to make a buck, and don't give a darn about anyone else.

In this case, I can turn it around, and say "Brotherhood" means knowing that the men who live in that town gotta feed their family and keep the local economy strong. Saying "I don't care, I'm gonna stay" is not brotherhood.

FWIW....in some parts of the country....a traveler saying something like that could get him hurt, and his "mode of transportation" vandalized. Maybe then they will get the hint next time, and leave when nicely asked to.

*Not supporting that, just putting that out there*.

If you don't believe that happens in Union strong regions of the country, you are kidding yourself.

It's about manners and respect. Again, YOU ARE A GUEST, and as such, need to know when you are wearing out your welcome. If someone at break says, "ya know there getting ready to start laying off guys, I guess you ought to think about hittin' the road, huh?"

Very casual, and the SMART Journeyman will get the hint, IMHO.

~Joe


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## miller_elex

Charlie K said:


> The foreman would know who was local and who is travelling.


The foreman's job is to make money for the company, he is a company man, that's why he's a foreman, end of story. If the company has any question about who comes first, the hall or the office, they have every right to demote the guy.

As long as the agreement is followed, everything should be fine.

Keep in mind, I am talking about a shop doing regular commercial work in a city. Most likely everyone on the job has worked for the company for a while, and if the traveler is good, he can stay as long as he wants. I worked for a guy who has been at the same company as a traveler for twenty years, never been back to the hall. He was a really nice guy and great foreman, I would of bent over for the guy, it never made a dimes difference to me what book he was on.


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## traveler

He's had 20 years to become a Book 1 and hasn't done it.

Your BA is to blame for that one.

~Joe


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## Bendezium

Thanks guys. I think I have a better idea now.


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## user4818

Wow...and to think as a non-union worker I can work anywhere at any time without having to sign silly books and worrying about having my vehicle vandalized by fellow "brothers" for being an outsider.


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## traveler

Yep....you can work anywhere at any time.

If you can make the same wage and get the same benefits as what the local union is offering, then I wish you the best of luck.

If not....then the difference in the wage AND benefits package is the cost you are paying for this "freedom" that you think union members don't have.

PERSONALLY, I'm not willing to work for $15 and hour, no breaks, no lunch, and have to have my own power tools.

BUT...whatever works for you......you're a nice guy.....you're working for less, and letting the owner keep a larger chunk of the pie......make sure he thanks you, when times get slow and you get the shaft.
~Joe


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## Celtic

Peter D said:


> Wow...and to think as a non-union worker I can work anywhere at any time ....



...and are you employed now? 
:whistling2:


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## Charlie K

I don't move from company to company too much. But when I do I like the good feeling of knowing my insurance and pensions are moving with me. When I am foreman on the job the office lets me know who is travelling and who is local. I work for a company that has shops all over the East and we do use the portability agreement quite a bit.

Charlie


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## NewBack

Peter D said:


> Wow...and to think as a non-union worker I can work anywhere at any time without having to sign silly books and worrying about having my vehicle vandalized by fellow "brothers" for being an outsider.


That's untrue, there are plenty of places you can't work without being a union member. Just look for any of the good paying jobs :thumbsup:


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## user4818

Typical union retorts...I'm shocked. :laughing:


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## brian john

traveler said:


> Y
> PERSONALLY, no breaks, no lunch, and have to have my own power tools.
> 
> ~Joe



While I agree with some of what you said, this part in my experience is not true. I have NEVER seen an open shop that had any different tools and no breaks or lunches. Maybe somewhere, but not where I have been.


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## NewBack

brian john said:


> While I agree with some of what you said, this part in my experience is not true. I have NEVER seen an open shop that had any different tools and no breaks or lunches. Maybe somewhere, but not where I have been.


Most open shops require their men to carry benders, cordless drills, drill bits, uni-bits, knock-out sets, snakes, etc. etc. etc.


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## user4818

traveler said:


> you're working for less, and letting the owner keep a larger chunk of the pie......make sure he thanks you, when times get slow and you get the shaft.


I see, so the owners of union shops must live in cardboard boxes under highway overpasses, right?


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## user4818

NewBack said:


> Most open shops require their men to carry benders, cordless drills, drill bits, uni-bits, knock-out sets, snakes, etc. etc. etc.


You have worked for "most" open shops?


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## NewBack

Peter D said:


> You have worked for "most" open shops?


Yes.


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## user4818

NewBack said:


> Yes.


In your geographical area, I presume. Therefore, you're not qualified to pronounce how open shops operate in other areas. In my area, that is most certainly not the case.


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## NewBack

Peter D said:


> Typical union retorts...I'm shocked. :laughing:


Can you refute them?

I am FAR from a big union supporter. I just wanted to point out the lie you posted.


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## NewBack

Peter D said:


> In your geographical area, I presume. Therefore, you're not qualified to pronounce how open shops operate in other areas. In my area, that is most certainly not the case.


Have you worked for all the open shops in your area?


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## Celtic

Celtic said:


> ...and are you employed now?
> :whistling2:





Peter D said:


> Typical union retorts...I'm shocked. :laughing:


What is typical of my question?
I ask lots of people - tradesmen and "other" - if they are working?


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## user4818

NewBack said:


> Have you worked for all the open shops in your area?


No, I haven't, but I know enough people who have. I realize that it's more commonplace in some parts of the country for workers to provide more than just hand tools, but that is not the case where I live.


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## user4818

Celtic said:


> What is typical of my question?
> I ask lots of people - tradesmen and "other" - if they are working?


That comment was not directed at you. At this time I am not working for a contractor and I am transitioning to becoming self employed.


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## NewBack

Peter D said:


> No, I haven't, but I know enough people who have. I realize that it's more commonplace in some parts of the country for workers to provide more than just hand tools, but that is not the case where I live.


Take a look at this thread:

http://www.electriciantalk.com/f15/tool-list-6417/


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## NewBack

Peter D said:


> That comment was not directed at you. At this time I am not working for a contractor and I am transitioning to becoming self employed.


So I assume your post was directed at me.

Your post:



Peter D said:


> Wow...and to think as a non-union worker I can work anywhere at any time without having to sign silly books and worrying about having my vehicle vandalized by fellow "brothers" for being an outsider.


Seems like typical anti-union propaganda. The fact is that you just *lied* and I called you on it:



NewBack said:


> That's untrue, there are plenty of places you can't work without being a union member. Just look for any of the good paying jobs :thumbsup:


I corrected you with facts.

So what's the problem?


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## user4818

NewBack said:


> So I assume your post was directed at me.
> 
> Your post:
> 
> 
> 
> Seems like typical anti-union propaganda. The fact is that you just *lied* and I called you on it:
> 
> 
> 
> I corrected you with facts.
> 
> So what's the problem?


You would make a good lawyer or politician because you're quite good at twisting words. :thumbsup:

Anyway, you're saying that the union has a lock on good paying jobs, and non-union workers are excluded from making comparable pay and benefits. Right? Are we on the same page? 

To that I say rubbish.


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## NewBack

Peter D said:


> You would make a good lawyer or politician because you're quite good at twisting words. :thumbsup:


I quoted your exact words, so how did I twist them? That makes no sense...

You said "I could work anywhere at anytime". You are wrong, that is untrue and you know it.


> Anyway, you're saying that the union has a lock on good paying jobs,


 I never said they have a lock, I just said to look for the union jobs since 99% of the time (if not more) they are the higher paying jobs, am I wrong?



> and non-union workers are excluded from making comparable pay and benefits. Right? Are we on the same page?


 No, I did not say that. I was simply replying to what you said.

You said you could work anywhere, you were trying to act like a big tough guy and show off, while furthering your anti-union agenda. The fact is you are very wrong, you can't work anywhere. If you would like to know the places that you can't work, just look for the highest paying jobs, those are most likely the places you can't work. That's just the way it works out.

Like I said, I'm no big supporter of the union. But the propaganda that some people, such as yourself, spread needs to be challenged. 

When I see someone make a completely wrong and biased post in favor of the union I will cite them on it too.


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## user4818

NewBack said:


> You said you could work anywhere, you were trying to act like a big tough guy and show off, while furthering your anti-union agenda. The fact is you are very wrong, you can't work anywhere. If you would like to know the places that you can't work, just look for the highest paying jobs, those are most likely the places you can't work. That's just the way it works out.


Ouch..you got me. I'm so tough and I'm such a showoff. Please look at me and see how tough I am. :laughing: 

Anyway, my point was simply that non-union workers are typically not encumbered by the politics and rules that have been spoken of. But you're actually right..where corrupt politicians and unions get together to stifle open shop competition, non-union workers are excluded. So you did get me there. I concede. 




> Like I said, I'm no big supporter of the union. When I see someone make a completely wrong and biased post in favor of the union I will cite them on it too.


Sounds to me like you're a pretty big supporter of the union. Whose side are you on anyway?


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## NewBack

Peter D said:


> I concede.


 So you admit you posted misinformation for the purpose of bashing the union. Good enough.


> Sounds to me like you're a pretty big supporter of the union. Whose side are you on anyway?


I've said twice already that I'm not a big union supporter, yet you ask me again if I am... Are you just not a sincere person? Do you usually say things you don't mean and expect others to do the same? I can't figure you out.

I'm not on either side. I see benefits and downfalls to both sides. Yes, I am a member, but I do not plan on being one for my entire career. With work as slow as it is, I don't know what I am going to do.

If you bring up one of the MANY negative points of unions, I will agree with you and probably add to it. However, I will not be aligned with your blind hatred and baseless propaganda.

Discussions like this are good for people like me who are on the fence about the issue, discussion could go both ways, there is actually a purpose to it. Since you seem to be completely on one side, and will go as far as lying just to support your side, what is the point of you being in the conversation? What is your objective, just to insult people?


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## user4818

NewBack said:


> So you admit you posted misinformation for the purpose of bashing the union. Good enough.


Nah, I was just being sarcastic. Couldn't you tell? :laughing:




> Since you seem to be completely on one side, and will go as far as lying just to support your side, what is the point of you being in the conversation? What is your objective, just to insult people?


Wow...you're really stuck on this alleged "lie" I told. You need to get out a bit more. :laughing:


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## NewBack

Peter D said:


> Nah, I was just being sarcastic. Couldn't you tell? :laughing:
> 
> Wow...you're really stuck on this alleged "lie" I told. You need to get out a bit more. :laughing:


So you're just a tool who isn't able to have a reasonable conversation...


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## user4818

NewBack said:


> I never said they have a lock, I just said to look for the union jobs since 99% of the time (if not more) they are the higher paying jobs, am I wrong?


Yes, you are wrong, and therefore lying.


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## user4818

NewBack said:


> So you're just a tool who isn't able to have a reasonable conversation...


Once again, you have me figured out to a "T." :thumbup:


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## NewBack

Peter D said:


> Yes, you are wrong, and therefore lying.


 You had to go back to find something, huh?

I'd ask for some type of info proving I was wrong, but I'm sure you'd reply with an unfunny quip anyway so what's the use?


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## user4818

NewBack said:


> You had to go back to find something, huh?
> 
> I'd ask for some type of info proving I was wrong, but I'm sure you'd reply with an unfunny quip anyway so what's the use?


*sigh*

This whole argument seems to be centering around my comment ("lie" ) of being able to work anywhere at anytime. _Obviously_ I would be excluded from union jobs and union strong areas _because I'm not a union member._ I figured that was implied. 
I was simply making a statement that I can go over to the next state and work without having to sign a book and worrying about being on someone else's turf. I can go anywhere at anytime and get a non-union job. Duh.  I like having that freedom and I don't need the IBEW to do advocate for me. If signing books and being on the constant cycle of layoffs is your thing, fine. I know plenty of people are perfectly content with that. I just have no use for it and I find it rather silly.


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## NewBack

Peter D said:


> *sigh*
> 
> This whole argument seems to be centering around my comment ("lie" ) of being able to work anywhere at anytime. _Obviously_ I would be excluded from union jobs and union strong areas _because I'm not a union member._ I figured that was implied.
> I was simply making a statement that I can go over to the next state and work without having to sign a book and worrying about being on someone else's turf. I can go anywhere at anytime and get a non-union job. Duh.  I like having that freedom and I don't need the IBEW to do advocate for me. If signing books and being on the constant cycle of layoffs is your thing, fine. I know plenty of people are perfectly content with that. I just have no use for it and I find it rather silly.


 You find it silly? Since you said that, I am going to ask this: How much did you make this year? How much did your great abilities of travel and not having to sign a book and not having the layoff cycles and all the other crap you just spewed get you?


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## user4818

NewBack said:


> I'd ask for some type of info proving I was wrong, but I'm sure you'd reply with an unfunny quip anyway so what's the use?


You can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that union jobs pay better 99% of the time? I certainly believe that on average union pays better than non, but I highly doubt you can prove that the figure is 99% or more as you stated.


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## user4818

NewBack said:


> You find it silly? Since you said that, I am going to ask this: How much did you make this year?


Would you also like my credit card number, checking account number, and other private information? 

It's none of your freaking business.


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## NewBack

Peter D said:


> You can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that union jobs pay better 99% of the time? I certainly believe that on average union pays better than non, but I highly doubt you can prove that the figure is 99% or more as you stated.


I did not state, I *asked*.


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## NewBack

Peter D said:


> Would you also like my credit card number, checking account number, and other private information?
> 
> It's none of your freaking business.


Of course :thumbup::laughing::laughing:

We all saw that coming.


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## user4818

.....


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## NewBack

Peter D said:


> Yes, and that is not something you ask someone....ever.


I think you missed a step there. Go back and read.


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## user4818

NewBack said:


> Of course :thumbup::laughing::laughing:
> 
> We all saw that coming.


Yeah, crazy that I'm not going to give out personal information to complete strangers over the internet. That's totally absurd!!


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## user4818

NewBack said:


> I think you missed a step there. Go back and read.


Ummm...duh. Hence why I deleted my post.


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## NewBack

Peter D said:


> Ummm...duh. Hence why I deleted my post.


Well you didn't delete it by the time I made that post, now did you?

I'm gonna go argue with my 4 year old niece, she has better come-backs than you and she doesn't use periods so incorrectly.


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## user4818

NewBack said:


> You find it silly? Since you said that, I am going to ask this: How much did you make this year? How much did your great abilities of travel and not having to sign a book and not having the layoff cycles and all the other crap you just spewed get you?



But since you asked - I made enough to be content and enjoy life. Money is not the be-all and end-all of my life. 

Why did you ask how much I make? What's your motivation for such a question?


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## NewBack

Peter D said:


> But since you asked - I made enough to be content and enjoy life. Money is not the be-all and end-all of my life.


 Mine neither. However, since we are having a discussion about the benefits of different type of work, what better way to judge is there? With all other things being equal, money is the largest factor.


> Why did you ask how much I make? What's your motivation for such a question?


Could you not tell? The context was pretty clear:

I said _"You find it silly? Since you said that, I am going to ask this: How much did you make this year? How much did your great abilities of travel and not having to sign a book and not having the layoff cycles and all the other crap you just spewed get you?"_


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## user4818

NewBack said:


> Could you not tell? The context was pretty clear:
> 
> I said _"You find it silly? Since you said that, I am going to ask this: How much did you make this year? How much did your great abilities of travel and not having to sign a book and not having the layoff cycles and all the other crap you just spewed get you?"_


It was still an inappropriate question to ask a stranger. :blink: Anyway, do I make $33 an hour that the IBEW in my area offers for a scale? No, I do not. But I also don't care. :no: And for the record, I have had an offer by a local official in the IBEW to grease the skids to get me in. I politely refused his offer. I simply have no need or desire to be in the IBEW. Call it a personal preference, if you will.


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## NewBack

Peter D said:


> It was still an inappropriate question to ask a stranger. :blink:


 So cry about it...



> Anyway, do I make $33 an hour that the IBEW in my area offers for a scale? No, I do not. But I also don't care. :no: And for the record, I have had an offer by a local official in the IBEW to grease the skids to get me in. I politely refused his offer. I simply have no need or desire to be in the IBEW. Call it a personal preference, if you will.


That's great.

The only reason I asked how much you made was because you were bragging about how good you got it being non-union, right after bashing the union.

If you're happy, then I am truly happy for you, no sarcasm in that.



My earlier question (that you ignored) still stands:


"_Discussions like this are good for people like me who are on the fence about the issue, discussion could go both ways, there is actually a purpose to it. Since you seem to be completely on one side, and will go as far as lying just to support your side, what is the point of you being in the conversation? What is your objective, just to insult people?_"


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## traveler

Peter D said:


> It was still an inappropriate question to ask a stranger. :blink: Anyway, do I make $33 an hour that the IBEW in my area offers for a scale? *No, I do not. But I also don't care.* :no: And for the record, I have had an offer by a local official in the IBEW to grease the skids to get me in. I politely refused his offer. I simply have no need or desire to be in the IBEW. Call it a personal preference, if you will.


Nothing left to say.

I like having money. Makes my time off of work more enjoyable....but to each their own.....I guess......:001_huh:

P.S. Can't grease the wheels to get into the union.....you have to be voted in....can't get around that.

~Joe


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## user4818

NewBack said:


> So cry about it...


Ok.  




> The only reason I asked how much you made was because you were bragging about how good you got it being non-union, right after bashing the union.


Yes, I enjoy being non-union. I have it "good" by any basic measure. It has provided an perfectly adequate lifestyle for myself and millions of others across this land. As for bashing the union, yes, I find its internal rules and politics quite bewildering at times. Simple- yes...silly...yes. Oooops -sorry about those misapplied periods there. 







> My earlier question (that you ignored) still stands:
> "_Discussions like this are good for people like me who are on the fence about the issue, discussion could go both ways, there is actually a purpose to it. Since you seem to be completely on one side, and will go as far as lying just to support your side, what is the point of you being in the conversation? What is your objective, just to insult people?_"


The point - it's a forum with an exchange of ideas. I don't need a reason or permission to participate in a discussion other than I feel like making a comment or starting a discussion. My objective? To get a discussion going and get people thinking. So far it seems to have worked.


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## NewBack

traveler said:


> P.S. Can't grease the wheels to get into the union.....you have to be voted in....can't get around that.


:bangin:

WTF you smoking?


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## user4818

traveler said:


> Nothing left to say.


I don't tie my level of happiness to money or the pursuit of it. If you don't see it that way, you're absolutely right - there is nothing to say. 



> P.S. Can't grease the wheels to get into the union.....you have to be voted in....can't get around that.



Yeah, sure, whatever you say. :lol:


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## NewBack

Peter D said:


> The point - it's a forum with an exchange of ideas.


Exactly. But from what I read you're posts aren't to exchange ideas, their sole purpose is to bash unions.



> My objective? To get a discussion going and get people thinking. So far it seems to have worked.


In what capacity has your union bashing and false propaganda worked?

Seriously, your argument is that you can travel without signing a book and make little money. Great, thanks for sharing...


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## user4818

NewBack said:


> But from what I read you're posts aren't to exchange ideas, their sole purpose is to bash unions.


I see..so I'm not allowed to state a negative opinion that I have about unions. Do we live in a free country or must everything be control by state run union media? 



> In what capacity has your union bashing and false propaganda worked?


I don't know. I'm not a mind reader. As for falsehood, that is purely subjective. 



> Seriously, your argument is that you can travel without signing a book and make little money. Great, thanks for sharing...


Did I state somewhere that I make "little" money? I never stated the amount of money that I make in a year. I only stated what I did _not_ make.


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## NewBack

Peter D said:


> I see..so I'm not allowed to state a negative opinion that I have about unions. Do we live in a free country or must everything be control by state run union media?


 LOL, stop acting like a child. No one said to make a law restricting PeterD from posting something. 

Go back and read the thread, everything was going smoothly, people were having a normal discussion, but then you just HAD to insert a union bashing post for no apparent reason. That's clearly trolling. You're just starting trouble for the sake of starting trouble. When you posted to this thread you didn't do it for any type of reason other than to get a negative rise out of people. You weren't trying to exchange information, you were trying to piss people off. No wonder you are out of work, most people don't respond well to childishness.


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## user4818

NewBack said:


> Go back and read the thread, everything was going smoothly, people were having a normal discussion, but then you just HAD to insert a union bashing post for no apparent reason. That's clearly trolling. You're just starting trouble for the sake of starting trouble. When you posted to this thread you didn't do it for any type of reason other than to get a negative rise out of people. You weren't trying to exchange information, you were trying to piss people off.


I never set out to p*ss people off, but if that was the result I am sorry. That was not my intended goal other than to get some discussion going. 

But, you really take unionism very seriously, don't you? Do you really get this wound up over a cause that you have to defend it so vociferously? 



> No wonder you are out of work, most people don't respond well to childishness.


So now you know the reason I am out of work? Are you telepathic?


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## NewBack

Peter D said:


> I never set out to p*ss people off, but if that was the result I am sorry. That was not my intended goal other than to get some discussion going.


 Your post was CLEARLY made to piss people off. 

Go back and read the thread.


> But, you really take unionism very seriously, don't you? Do you really get this wound up over a cause that you have to defend it so vociferously?


 For the fourth time, I'm on the fence. I'm not defending "unionism", I am showing you for your true colors. If this thread were exactly the opposite, if it was a nice non-union discussion going on and you came in bashing non-union just to be an ass like you did here, I'd be saying the same thing to you.

What you don't seem to understand is that there are people who don't follow your "toe the line" mentality, so people think for themselves. Just because you are non-union, it doesn't mean you have to tirelessly defend it and constantly bash the other side at all cost.


> So now you know the reason I am out of work? Are you telepathic?


The reason shows.

I'm not going to go back and forth with you all night, you win. Now get back to your union bashing, there are plenty of clean threads that you can crap.


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## user4818

NewBack said:


> Your post was CLEARLY made to piss people off.
> 
> Go back and read the thread.
> For the fourth time, I'm on the fence. I'm not defending "unionism", I am showing you for your true colors. If this thread were exactly the opposite, if it was a nice non-union discussion going on and you came in bashing non-union just to be an ass like you did here, I'd be saying the same thing to you.
> 
> What you don't seem to understand is that there are people who don't follow your "toe the line" mentality, so people think for themselves. Just because you are non-union, it doesn't mean you have to tirelessly defend it and constantly bash the other side at all cost.
> 
> The reason shows.
> 
> I'm not going to go back and forth with you all night, you win. Now get back to your union bashing, there are plenty of clean threads that you can crap.


You got me all figured out. Now you just need to write a book. :thumbsup:

Seriously, you're new here so you don't know that I've clearly stated in the past that I think there are many good things about unions and I do respect what they stand for. I do not need or want to be part of one. I also will continue to "union bash" as I see fit without worrying if you will have a temper tantrum about it. :laughing:


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## NewBack

Peter D said:


> You got me all figured out. Now you just need to write a book. :thumbsup:
> 
> Seriously, you're new here so you don't know that I've clearly stated in the past that I think there are many good things about unions and I do respect what they stand for. I do not need or want to be part of one. I also will continue to "union bash" as I see fit without worrying if you will have a temper tantrum about it. :laughing:


You'll do as I say and like it.


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## user4818

NewBack said:


> You'll do as I say and like it.


Actually, I think I'm going to the local hall tomorrow to sign up :whistling2:


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## NewBack

peter d said:


> actually, i think i'm going to the local hall tomorrow to sign up :whistling2:


noooooo!!!!!!!!!!


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## miller_elex

Peter D said:


> Anyway, you're saying that the union has a lock on good paying jobs, and non-union workers are excluded from making comparable pay and benefits. Right?


Sorry to interject, I just wanted to add something here. 

Non-union guys bank more the union wiremen, 
and that is on Davis-Bacon work, a good chance on the little Davis-Bacon (State jobs,) as well.

You see, we have to pay dues, additionally we have no choice about the retirement and health package. Now these are some really great things we have, BUT, non-union guys can take a lump sum of the hourly package, which can be over $50 an hour.

So, you see, non-union guys doing Davis-Bacon work can take home some serious change, but at the end of the day, when they go back to private work, they are going to take a pay-cut.


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## Celtic

miller_elex said:


> Sorry to interject, I just wanted to add something here.
> 
> Non-union guys bank more the union wiremen,
> and that is on Davis-Bacon work, a good chance on the little Davis-Bacon (State jobs,) as well.
> 
> You see, we have to pay dues, additionally we have no choice about the retirement and health package. Now these are some really great things we have, BUT, non-union guys can take a lump sum of the hourly package, which can be over $50 an hour.
> 
> So, you see, non-union guys doing Davis-Bacon work can take home some serious change, but at the end of the day, when they go back to private work, they are going to take a pay-cut.



I'll take the numerous retirement packages [NECA, NEBF, Annuity, etc] and the health care bennies over a few extra sheckles in my pocket. :thumbsup:


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## knaack134

*Book system*

An Ibew Union's job is to provide signitory contractors with manpower. Around here (chicago), they send out in this order:

Book 1: Journymen members of the local.
When this list is exausted they go to book 2.

Book 2: Journymen members of other IBEW locals.
When these people can no longer fill the callouts for work the local Union sends men out who have signed Book 3.

Book 3: Non Union Electricians who can perform journymen electrician work. (Illinois does not license electricians, I am not knocking non union workers)
When all of these people have been placed for work and contractors demands for manpower have not been met, we move to book 4.

Book 4: Any swinging **** with a bag of tools and not necisarily any electrical experience can get placed with a signitory contractor and earn the locals journeyman pay.


In my time, only about ten years, I have never seen it go as far as book 4. One thing I will say is that had I not served an apprenticeship, I would have been far better off coming in as book 3 as opposed to book 2. I have seen and known book three members allowed to stay and eventually become book 1, while at the same time book 2 members being treated worse then whale $h*t. It apears to me that the (local) IBEW membership looks down on "ticket jammers" while embracing people who didn't serve an apprentiship.

Like I said, I'm not knocking anyone. Thats just how it works around these parts.


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