# Question about the CW/CE program and apprenticeship...



## PlugsAndLights

I don't know anything about union/apprenticeship programs in you area, but 
based on your post I'd say you're likely ahead of the competition. 
P&L


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## Switched

What did you do in the military?

Have you looked into the Helmets to Hardhats program?


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## Gabrielc

Switched said:


> What did you do in the military?
> 
> Have you looked into the Helmets to Hardhats program?


I was in the Infantry stationed up in Fort Drum, NY. But no I haven't heard of that actually. I'm guessing that for people still currently enlisted?


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## Switched

AFAIK it is for those who served....

Maybe some of the others can chime in here, but it can take many years to get accepted into a union apprenticeship, although I think they give preference to those who have served, so that may speed up your process.

I would personally look into a non-union shop as well, even if your goal is to go union, just get some work in the meantime. Also, don't necessarily just think about contractors. Ohio...? Start looking at the industrial places, put in applications everywhere.

I gave this piece of advice to my 20 year old nephew (I wish he would take it).....

Go to the company you want to work for and ask to speak with a manager about a job, let them know you want to discuss not necessarily working for them, but how you can get into the field now that your military career has ended (What I told him was a little different, he served a couch and a tv the last 2 years...).

At the end of the conversation simply ask "What time do you show up in the morning and what about the field guys?" 

When he says 6am or 7am, just say thanks and shake his hand. Do not ask for a job, not once. As you leave simply turn around and say "See you tomorrow at 6 am", don't give him a chance to reply, just leave.

Show up 15-20 min. early every working day. When they all ask who you are just introduce yourself and say "I'll be working with you soon".

Keep doing this, get there before everyone else. You will have a job in no time.


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## Semi-Ret Electrician

Welcome aboard & thanks for your service.

I worked for Industrial Nucleonics in Columbus, great company check it out, if they're still in business.

Former military are now in high demand, you will do fine.


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## Wiresmith

are they telling you that you cannot apply for inside wireman apprenticeship without first entering cw program? do you live close enough to work in marysville? the honda plant there should be hiring or will be soon, they are doing a large addition. if you don't mind working nights for a while i would recommend working for honda instead. honda will teach you skills if you want to learn and take advantage of there programs, they pay skilled guys as much as union but there maintanance guy's do have to work a lot of weekends and holidays. i'm union but 683 is doing some long term damage that might make you regret investing your time. just my opinion. if you want in though all you have to do is keep trying and you will get in and it probably won't take long.


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## Gabrielc

Yes, I went in to apply for the Inside Wiseman apprenticeship and they said I have to do the Pre-apprenticeship first unfortunately. But what do you mean by the long term damage ?


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## TGGT

Gabrielc said:


> Yes, I went in to apply for the Inside Wiseman apprenticeship and they said I have to do the Pre-apprenticeship first unfortunately. But what do you mean by the long term damage ?


Sounds like they just wanna "try before they buy", so they can weed out folks that would be likely to drop out of the apprenticeship and take space from quality guys.


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## kg7879

Other locals may be different but CW's pretty much do apprentice type work. The first little bit you might be handling material and cleaning up but every CW I have been around had their tools and was working in the field. 

The whole point of the CW/CE program is to get cheaper labor to bring down job composite cost down. It is basically trying to slow the race to the bottom.


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## brian john

kg7879 said:


> Other locals may be different but CW's pretty much do apprentice type work. The first little bit you might be handling material and cleaning up but every CW I have been around had their tools and was working in the field.
> 
> The whole point of the CW/CE program is to get cheaper labor to bring down job composite cost down. It is basically trying to slow the race to the bottom.


In our local we had "R" program and it helps compete against open shops and gives open shop men a way into the "A": by a 3 year upgrade program.

This program has helped our local grow.

Helps keep everyone working as we race to the top.


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## kg7879

brian john said:


> In our local we had "R" program and it helps compete against open shops and gives open shop men a way into the "A": by a 3 year upgrade program.
> 
> This program has helped our local grow.
> 
> Helps keep everyone working as we race to the top.


It can work if it is not abused and the program is being abused by our contractors. Our local is run by the contractors not the hall.


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## brian john

kg7879 said:


> It can work if it is not abused and the program is being abused by our contractors. Our local is run by the contractors not the hall.


Our local is run jointly there is a fair sharing of power which seems to be a win win for the members.


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## active1

CE & CW here is more for people with trade experience but lack training or licensing. 
Such as a person with years hands on experience but never opened a book. 

I don't know how many times people like this would ask me to help them pass their exam. First question is do they own a code book. The answer is always no. Tell them to buy the book and get back to me. Never hear about it again.

Haven't seen many make it out of the CE/CW rut here. Wouldn't say there is a hate for them, but not much love either. When the JW's have 800-1000 on book 1 and see calls all the time for CE/CW's they get frustrated. It's not so mush that there is tons of work for them. Just that the employers keep rotating the CE/CW's out looking for a better one.

For the IBEW union starting out you want to get in the apprenticeship. Even if it's a residential then change to commercial later. A pre-apprentice, helper, or material expediter is a foot in the door at the hall. But it can take years to get in the apprenticeship as there are only so many spots. You can also go work non-union.


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## brian john

active1 said:


> CE & CW here is more for people with trade experience but lack training or licensing.
> Such as a person with years hands on experience but never opened a book.
> 
> I don't know how many times people like this would ask me to help them pass their exam. First question is do they own a code book. The answer is always no. Tell them to buy the book and get back to me. Never hear about it again.
> 
> Haven't seen many make it out of the CE/CW rut here. Wouldn't say there is a hate for them, but not much love either. When the JW's have 800-1000 on book 1 and see calls all the time for CE/CW's they get frustrated. It's not so mush that there is tons of work for them. Just that the employers keep rotating the CE/CW's out looking for a better one.
> 
> .


Here can get into the "R" from open shop and then do a upgrade program and as I noted it is a win win.

Like you I know electricians I have told I would do everything in my power short of taking the test for them to help them get a license. 3 years later I ask them from a code book and they tell me they do not own one. OH WELL


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## Switched

brian john said:


> Here can get into the "R" from open shop and then do a upgrade program and as I noted it is a win win.
> 
> Like you I know electricians I have told I would do everything in my power short of taking the test for them to help them get a license. 3 years later I ask them from a code book and they tell me they do not own one. OH WELL


I have two apprentices.... I told them both to buy code books and an NEC handbook, I supplied some other books to them as well. 

I know which of the two reads through them on a regular basis and which one does not, and I know which one will get faster raises, more responsibility, and climb farther. Union or not, you will only get out of it what you put into it.


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## brian john

Switched said:


> I have two apprentices.... I told them both to buy code books and an NEC handbook, I supplied some other books to them as well.
> 
> I know which of the two reads through them on a regular basis and which one does not, and I know which one will get faster raises, more responsibility, and climb farther. Union or not, you will only get out of it what you put into it.


If the internet existed when I was staring out I would have had a much easier and cheaper time. I was buying every book I could get my hands on and they were few and far between, mostly code books there were few books on power quality, protective relaying, preventative maintenance, circuit breakers, transformers, batteries, lightning, grounding...........


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## active1

That reminds me how I got started.
Spent a good part of a year trying to get in the apprenticeship.
It didn't work out that year so I decided to go to the open shops.

I started buying and studying trade books of all levels.
First electrical job interview for an open shop I told them I was just starting but had been studying. They asked me a few code questions that I knew from the books.
The next day I was off to work with a bender, hacksaw, and wooden ladder.
While it was a bad owner to work for I used it as a step to a better job later that year.


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## TGGT

I was a CE. It's okay for folks that are determined to become a JIW. In my local a lot of the career CE's are illegals, probably not literate enough to take an English test.


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## Wiresmith

Gabrielc said:


> But what do you mean by the long term damage ?


the electrical industry including columbus' jurisdiction is in great need of a lot of quality people to be electrical workers and the need is expected to increase dramatically in the near future. they are focusing on things like the cw contract to address the problem they incorrectly believe is the cause for the great need for workers. instead of realizing they are competing with all industries and not just there own or even just the construction industry, they are looking at the problem as if the number and quality of applicants is a given and not the variable that it is. take a look a your case for a perfect example, you are researching a career which is a sign you would probably be a quality worker, but yet they are not making it easy for you to decide that this is a great opportunity that you should take.


Gabrielc said:


> I have to do the Pre-apprenticeship first unfortunately.


 do you know what your starting wage would be and your raise schedule, i think it would be around $11 but not sure. instead of using the law of supply and demand and raising the lower wages in the schedule to get more and better applicants they are using a ridiculous theory that they just take in everyone they can at lower wages and hopefully get some good people without considering increasing the apprentices time being paid at lower wages and being treated worse(making more people quit) being a deterrent for especially quality applicants. among other things, like not training people to do there job.


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## active1

Wasn't it a CE/CW that was posting here they wanted to quit after 2 days?

At a NECR meeting yesterday and CE/CWs came up. The comment from the GF's was they're lower than apprentices.

At other union functions CE/CW's is a hotter topic than politics and religion. It normally ends with someone saying "Don't get started with that dispute again. We know it's a hot topic for some.".

Today we have 20 book 1 CE/CW's and 6 long calls for them today.
But 856 book 1 JW's out of work and no long calls.

You can understand how some of the normally 800-1000 out of work JW's here don't like the CE/CW's classification.


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## Switched

active1 said:


> Wasn't it a CE/CW that was posting here they wanted to quit after 2 days?
> 
> At a NECR meeting yesterday and CE/CWs came up. The comment from the GF's was they're lower than apprentices.
> 
> At other union functions CE/CW's is a hotter topic than politics and religion. It normally ends with someone saying "Don't get started with that dispute again. We know it's a hot topic for some.".
> 
> Today we have 20 book 1 CE/CW's and 6 long calls for them today.
> But 856 book 1 JW's out of work and no long calls.
> 
> You can understand how some of the normally 800-1000 out of work JW's here don't like the CE/CW's classification.


This is why I just don't see the program working out long term, or at least to the actual benefit of the CE/CWs. They are guys that want to go union, but are caught in an ugly battle between the contractors that want less expensive labor and the labor pool they already use. 

CE/CWs will get the short end in the long run.


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## sparkysean40

I was recently offered a job as CW/CE apprentice through the union. I am just a few weeks from finishing my 4th and last year of schooling that is not union. I'm still short on my hours by about 1500. I am just looking for opinions that maybe I should just join the union completely and take their placement tests and maybe do the union schooling seems how my current school is not very good and I feel like I could of got the same knowledge by doing it by myself. I've heard the union has a really good school. I just don't want to have to go backwards in schooling but I know it would happens since my knowledge now in electrical isn't very good. I know the basics but not very much when it comes to basic laws of electricity and how it works, motors, and stuff that can be complicated. If I take the CW offer I would take a drastic pay cut where as if I took a chance and joined the union completely I could possibly be making more if I ended up even a year behind where I am now. What's everyone's opinions on this. Sorry if my post is confusing.


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## active1

sparkysean40 said:


> I was recently offered a job as CW/CE apprentice through the union. I am just a few weeks from finishing my 4th and last year of schooling that is not union. I'm still short on my hours by about 1500. I am just looking for opinions that maybe I should just join the union completely and take their placement tests and maybe do the union schooling seems how my current school is not very good and I feel like I could of got the same knowledge by doing it by myself. I've heard the union has a really good school. I just don't want to have to go backwards in schooling but I know it would happens since my knowledge now in electrical isn't very good. I know the basics but not very much when it comes to basic laws of electricity and how it works, motors, and stuff that can be complicated. If I take the CW offer I would take a drastic pay cut where as if I took a chance and joined the union completely I could possibly be making more if I ended up even a year behind where I am now. What's everyone's opinions on this. Sorry if my post is confusing.


Can you get your 1500 hours while working at the union?
Finish what you started.

For the union the best long term way, if you can make it happen is the apprenticeship. Nothing wrong with organizing in without going through the union apprenticeship. But many at the hall don't see it that way. You may have a harder time advancing, staying employed, getting the extra hours, etc.

As for good school vs bad school. Maybe there is some truth to that. But you also have to take some responsibility in educating yourself. Buy trade books, read online, watch videos, ask a few questions at work, or to see how something is done. You can also be limited by who you work for and with. I like the idea of apprentices not working for the same company or doing the same thing. The current problem we have here is most of the apprentices only worked in solar power plants. No resi, almost no conventions, and little to no commercial.


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## TGGT

Get your journeyman license first then organize in. I would avoid the CE/CW program at your level.


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## sparkysean40

Thanks guys! I just feel like the union is really good pay. It's about a 6$ raise for journeyman and it comes with benefits but at the time and I could choose to do extra schooling to help me learn more. I've heard the union schooling is one of the best because honestly my school is complete ****.


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## brian john

sparkysean40 said:


> *I just don't want to have to go backwards in schooling but I know it would happens since my knowledge now in electrical isn't very good.* I know the basics but not very much when it comes to basic laws of electricity and how it works, motors, and stuff that can be complicated. If I take the CW offer I would take a drastic pay cut where as if I took a chance and joined the union completely I could possibly be making more if I ended up even a year behind where I am now. What's everyone's opinions on this. Sorry if my post is confusing.


Schooling will NEVER set you backwards, taking a cut in pay is only temporary.


All the stuff you say you are lacking is readily available on line. You WILL NEVER be the best you can be in any profession, if you do not educate yourself. 

I would finish what you started and then try to get in the union avoiding the CE/CW if you can if not take the leap.


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## active1

sparkysean40 said:


> Thanks guys! I just feel like the union is really good pay. It's about a 6$ raise for journeyman and it comes with benefits but at the time and I could choose to do extra schooling to help me learn more. I've heard the union schooling is one of the best because honestly my school is complete ****.


No matter how good you think the JATC is, it's more about how much you apply yourself and apprentice work experience. The best electricians are not the 1st year JW's. It's the ones with a wide trade experience and take the time to keep learning long after the school is done.


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## darmsti

In our local I feel like it's worth it to do the CW program while you're waiting to get into the apprenticeship. They don't require it though. Most of the people in my apprenticeship class were either in the CW program or a trade program at a place like BOCES. The downside to the CW program is that you have to wait on classes and don't get as much training as an apprentice outside of the job. So if you get put on jobs where you do nothing but sling MC, it's hard to learn anything else. I've seen CW's that could hardly bend conduit and there's really nobody to show them unless they find a good patient JW. I've seen CW's earn a bad rep just because people aren't willing to show them anything.


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## Heavyduty5

I was the one who was in the union for 2 weeks and left back to non union. I would love to join the union and stick it out but not to sound stuck up but I'm worth more than a cw . They really do di*k you around. My buddy was a cw for 2 years and got all way to 13 bucks a hour. He got "promoted" to UA and now he's making somewhere around 12.65... so your telling me you get promoted in the union and then have to take a pay Duduction ? Haha that doesn't make much sense to me? I mean if you can stick it out for 3 plus years as a CW then go for it. Only way I would join again is if they gave me apprenticeship program.. I have been taking a lot of boces classes as well


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## cabletie

I am not sure what a UA is, but your buddy probably got a raise. As a CW in our local, you wouldn't get any annuity. And you get lower health care. As an A apprentice you get something like 3 dollars an hour towards your annuity and better health care. He would also get a raise every six months for two years, then every year until he tops out. 

They restructured our apprentices pay scale a few years back. They do start lower than they used to.


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## TGGT

cabletie said:


> I am not sure what a UA is, but your buddy probably got a raise. As a CW in our local, you wouldn't get any annuity. And you get lower health care. As an A apprentice you get something like 3 dollars an hour towards your annuity and better health care. He would also get a raise every six months for two years, then every year until he tops out.
> 
> They restructured our apprentices pay scale a few years back. They do start lower than they used to.


UA are plumbers union.

Sent from my SM-G360T using Tapatalk


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## active1

UA = unindentured apprentice aka pre-apprentice. Not in any apprentice training program. Just people working union while they wait another year to try to get in. 

After a year of trying to prove themselves and make JW friends many are disappounted they still did not get in the apprenticship. Real reason is there are just times when there way more UA's then spots in the next years program.

Our hall droped the UA leval.
They realized many were getting big job experuance only to go non-union when they get rejected from the apprenticship.


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