# Take on female applying for union apprenticeship



## DonUhl (Oct 26, 2012)

As long as you can do the job, I dont have a problem with females in the trade but in my experience most females dont have the skills or physical strength to do the job.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

I'm all for it


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## Tsmil (Jul 17, 2011)

Have you seen all the videos of an electrician in clean uniform standing in front of a panel with meter in one hand and test lead in other? Is this the life of an electrician? Not in my world. If you are willing to put up with hard work, cranky customers, bad bosses, lousy working conditions, and hazardous environments, welcome aboard. Oh wait, you said you are a lady. That changes nothing. Welcome aboard.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Go for it !

1 of the best Electrician's I know is female. 


And hot ...


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

....loaded question....women are as smart as men or visa-versa...most men are bigger physically...genenitcs sorry gales...I am 51 and my body is failing...2 hernias..1 tore rotator...blown disks neck and lower back...carpultunnel...bad knees....scars everywhere.....so if I can flip the question..why would such beautiful creatures want to do this to themselfs.....?..you will get hurt.. you will put some damn tough miles on your bodys...the dangers are real and ever present....I known some damn fine men who are just a mess...so if anyone thinks its easy ask any (one) in here that has done this for 10,20 or 30 years how they feel....good luck..be careful...and remember at the end of the day we are construction workers...we all knew the price at the gate.:thumbsup: ...and I love my job..the guys...the dirt..the grease..the thrills the hights..the mindless banter..the never ending learning....the practical jokes..the challenges...


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

You're going to have to prove yourself. Everyone does, but there are often jackasses who set the bar higher for women.

You're going to get crapped on. Everyone does, but you might see some legit sexual harassment.

You're going to have things you struggle to do physically. Many guys do, especially smaller guys, but it's still gonna be a mark against you.

If you can get by all that, this is one of the more intellectual trades, and there are avenues that really let you exercise your brains as much as brawn, but it takes a lot of dirt and sweat and menial labor to get there, and even then those things never go away.

But people who like the trade tend to really like it, otherwise this forum wouldn't be so popular. :thumbsup:

-John


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## Tom45acp (Sep 6, 2011)

Most first year apprentices are very green (inexperienced). Some locals, including mine, have gone to a boot camp system to insure that all the new apprentices know some basic things such as how to lift things, how to use basic tools.

Your boss should feel pretty good about you being on the job, if he needed a skilled wireman to fill a slot, he wouldn't have asked for an apprentice.

I've had three females in my apprenticeship classes and this year I have another one. So far, 1 pretty good, one average and one marginal. About the same ratio as the guys.

While I have been hired for my weak mind, no one ever hired me for my strong back or what's left of it.

Best of luck to you.


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## Tsmil (Jul 17, 2011)

wildleg said:


> ttiuwp


??????


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

rip5682 said:


> Hi I was wondering what everyones opinion or advice would be to a female, such as myself, attempting to join the apprenticeship program for the union. I honestly know very little about electrical work, but am in college now and hate the system and would like to join a trade. After looking around I was considering applying for the electrical uinion apprenticeship in Febuary. I am very good at math and catch on to things very easily. I grew up in a garage pretty much so I do have some common mechanical knowledge. If I did pass though does anyone have any take on how any boss is going to feel about having a inexperienced girl on their crew to put it plainly?


My daughter works with me sometimes. She is a good electrician, but I wouldn't suggest it for most women.


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

rip5682 said:


> Hi I was wondering what everyones opinion or advice would be to a female, such as myself, attempting to join the apprenticeship program for the union. I honestly know very little about electrical work, but am in college now and hate the system and would like to join a trade. After looking around I was considering applying for the electrical uinion apprenticeship in Febuary. I am very good at math and catch on to things very easily. I grew up in a garage pretty much so I do have some common mechanical knowledge. If I did pass though does anyone have any take on how any boss is going to feel about having a inexperienced girl on their crew to put it plainly?


Your work ethic and your personal application to school work will be more important than your gender!


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

one guy I worked for years ago quipped to me "I guess we won't have to give you the 28' test".....I found out later his test for new crew members was sending them to get the 28' ladders and set them and move them by themselfs...crued but effective test...he was good guy to work for...old school...but fair....


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

rip5682 said:


> Hi I was wondering what everyones opinion or advice would be to a female, such as myself, attempting to join the apprenticeship program for the union.


I recommend you contact your local IBEW hall and apply. At the same time ask them to have some of their female members contact you. There are a few members here on this forum as well...hopefully they can find some time to chat with you.

I have worked with quite a few sister members. For the most part they have had to prove themselves over and over again and as a result are good electricians and good union members. Most electricians are male biased unfortunately, but you will find that union workers tend to be more open about who they work with.

Best of luck, welcome to the forum and hopefully to the trade.


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## ibuzzard (Dec 28, 2008)

I have a question for you:

How would you feel being paid the same wage as a male co-worker, when the males, by virtue of their (normally) greater physical strength are much more frequently assigned the heavy lifting tasks?Would you be willing to work for less wages because not doing the same heavy work?

Many of the tasks are not strength specific, some are. When my daughter finishes college, and if she decides she does not want to be a cubicle dweller, I will encourage her to apply to go through our locals apprenticeship, like her two brothers. Except , I'd steer her towards the Sound and Communication apprenticeship.Though they earn about 40% less, they do O.K.,and she would be doing the exact same types of work the men would, for equal pay, unlike Inside Wiremen.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

eejack said:


> . Most electricians are male biased unfortunately, but you will find that union workers tend to be more open about who they work with.
> .


Oh please, what a pile of BS that is.


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## rexowner (Apr 12, 2008)

You should very definitely go for it if it's what you want to
do.

The average female has better fine motor skills than the
average male, which IMO is usually (depends on the 
specific sub-trade) more important than "physical strength."

Most electrical work does not require great physical strength
(there are, significant, exceptions). In general, if you are
straining, you are doing something wrong.

Don't let any jackass discourage you with sexist B*S*.
It is their problem, not yours.

If this is what you want to do, if you have the smarts,
you can do it. 

By all means, go for it.


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

Apply and go for it! Here in Local 3 we have over 1000 female Journey-persons. I've literally taught about a hundred ladies over the last 20yrs as an NJATC instructor. Like any construction trade, it's not easy, however, if you can physically do the work...don't hesitate.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

backstay said:


> Oh please, what a pile of BS that is.


I'm not sure what part of what I have said you think is untrue but just read some of the threads around here. Most of the negative comments come from non union electricians and most of the positive comments come from union electricians. I am not saying, but most.

The difference, I believe, stems from the internal bias of the non union hiring manager. In essence, nearly everyone hired at a non union company gets selected by the same person. That person will hire folks based on their bias. It may not be overt or purposeful, but it does happen.

Unions select the same way, but by committee, and with the acknowledgement that they have to be biased, ie they need to give more weight in their selections to minorities. The results in a more diverse and blended workforce.

Union jobs get filled off of a list, so you really cannot select the workers for the job. 

So you have on the non union job, a workforce filtered through a single point. It is natural that that workforce would be made up of like minded folks. Since they all work for a company, it is likely they work together from job to job.

On a union job, the workforce is filtered through a committee, percolated in the apprenticeship program and the various union activities. It is normal that the workforce has a like minded attitude that puts the union and it's collective nature to the forefront ( unionism ). It is likely that over a long career, an electrician will work work with hundreds if not thousands of different electricians.

I am not saying every non union electrician is biased against women and every union electrician is not. What I am saying is the greater exposure to a more diverse workforce will temper ones internal biases.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Wow, you should not have to crap for a week after that.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

RGH said:


> ....loaded question....women are as smart as men or visa-versa...most men are bigger physically...genenitcs sorry gales...I am 51 and my body is failing...2 hernias..1 tore rotator...blown disks neck and lower back...carpultunnel...bad knees....scars everywhere.....so if I can flip the question..why would such beautiful creatures want to do this to themselfs.....?..you will get hurt.. you will put some damn tough miles on your bodys...the dangers are real and ever present....I known some damn fine men who are just a mess...so if anyone thinks its easy ask any (one) in here that has done this for 10,20 or 30 years how they feel....good luck..be careful...and remember at the end of the day we are construction workers...we all knew the price at the gate.:thumbsup: ...and I love my job..the guys...the dirt..the grease..the thrills the hights..the mindless banter..the never ending learning....the practical jokes..the challenges...


Great post, I wish I could "rec" it twice.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

I'll chime in that the best wire feeder ever was my wife. She listened to me and did what I said and it went fantastic. It's amazing how difficult it is to make some guys understand good technique for feeding wire. They already know :no: and won't listen.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

hardworkingstiff said:


> She listened to me and did what I said and it went fantastic. .


are U available for consultation work ....?:whistling2:~CS~


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## denny3992 (Jul 12, 2010)

Just a thought but try and get into automation, more technical and not as much grunt work!


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

> Most electricians are male biased unfortunately, but you will find that union workers tend to be more open about who they work with.


Your bias seems to know no bounds.

I have seen plenty of racist, bigots and chauvinist in and out of the local. Belonging to the union makes you no different that any one walking the streets. 
A statement such as you posted is:
1. Either made to stir the pot and draw ire (YOUR A TROLL)
2. Shows a certain ignorance that you should try to overcome. Getting off the couch and into the real world would really open your eyes.

As for the OP with very few exceptions a woman can do (and do for the most part) any work men do. Some men are still stuck in the 50's but this will change over time. I really thought by now we would be past it. But as you can see from some of the narrow minded post here that a level of prejudice exist by those that think they are above being bigots.


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

backstay said:


> Oh please, what a pile of BS that is.


I have trained quite a few women. I have never seen a non-union JW. I don't think it's too far off.:no:


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## Roger (Jul 7, 2007)

big2bird said:


> I have trained quite a few women. I have never seen a non-union JW. I don't think it's too far off.:no:


That's because you choose not to see things outside your little world. 

Not only I have also trained quite a few women, I have moved a number of them up into supervisory positions running projects over many male co-workers and believe it or not, this is in Merrit shops and goes back as far as the early 80's.


Roger


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

brian john said:


> Your bias seems to know no bounds.
> 
> I have seen plenty of racist, bigots and chauvinist in and out of the local. Belonging to the union makes you no different that any one walking the streets.
> A statement such as you posted is:
> ...


Let's see.

Yes, belonging to a union does make you different. Since you don't really belong, you don't get that BJ. You are 'above' those things. Shame you do not know what you are missing.

My post was not meant to stir any pots. It was written without ire and judgement, basically straight facts with some conjecture. Any sociologist would agree with the basic precepts involved. Pack behavior is pack behavior.

I wager your shop is entirely molded on your concepts of what an electrician should be. So if you are biased ( you are anti-union for example ) then your workforce will carry that same bias.

Since it is entirely impossible to be unbiased as an individual that holds true no matter what single selector group we are talking about.


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## MollyHatchet29 (Jan 24, 2012)

eejack said:


> Let's see.
> 
> Yes, belonging to a union does make you different. Since you don't really belong, you don't get that BJ. You are 'above' those things. Shame you do not know what you are missing.
> 
> ...


I have to agree with Brian. Your "theory" is crap. It's filled with massive amounts of judgements. Straight facts? No. Maybe a half truth and your own personal twist on it. Jeeze, it's hard to post when all you want to do is kick someone in the face.


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

Roger said:


> That's because you choose not to see things outside your little world.
> 
> Not only I have also trained quite a few women, I have moved a number of them up into supervisory positions running projects over many male co-workers and believe it or not, this is in Merrit shops and goes back as far as the early 80's.
> 
> ...



Here in Local 3 the number of female electricians rivals the total number of electricians in many jurisdictions of posters on this forum...union or non union. Therefore we have a unique outlook on this subject. What EE said isn't wrong at all. However what I will add to his comment concerning our job placement methods is that what he described is how it is decided who is accepted into the program. In many locals across the country, Apprentices are kept working. There is no "time out" until they reach journeyman status. At that point, as any of the union contractors here will know, journeymen are given job via a computerized list. This software is prevalent throughout the IBEW and is simple. Your name goes into a database, then your previous time out for the past two years is factored into the equation to determine your spot on the "list". This is becoming more and more popular as the number of unemployed makes it harder to do a generic "list". Anyway...once the person is in the "system" there is no bias as to sex, race, or religion. It's cold, fair, and it does it's job.

Can women do "our job"..union or non union...the answer is yes. Absolutely. I've seen women excel at the things that I've seen men f*ck up on a regular basis...and I've also met some women who have been able to work a table bender like you wouldn't believe. It's not all wine and roses...I've had female journey-persons work for me who were lawsuit hounds as well. Part of working with women and training women requires training. Every single General Foreman, Foreman, and Sub Foreman are required to take sexual harassment classes. It's not a maybe thing, it's REQUIRED here. All it takes is one good case to completely ruin a shop...or union for that matter. 

I can say this without a doubt, and having just got back from breakfast with one of the largest non union contractors here in NYC where this was the topic of conversation! A female is offered much more room for advancement within the IBEW than any private or merit shop can offer. The educational opportunities alone make it worth while...but then add in the medical benefits...As well as the opportunity to re-enter the trade after raising children! I'd say yeah...it's better for her on our side of the fence. 

All I can say is go for it, I welcome the opportunity to call you Sister.

This denigrated into people calling EE a bigot, racist, and all he was doing was honestly answering the woman's question. The amount of baiting here is off the chart. Can't it just be kept civil...but no...the sheer number of smart-asses here rivals amateur night at a comedy club. 

As always, this is just my opinion...not worth the HTML it's read on...but it's mine.

Thanks.


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

Ha...and it's only 9:45AM...doesn't anyone work on Saturdays anymore? LoL


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

icefalkon said:


> Ha...and it's only 9:45AM...doesn't anyone work on Saturdays anymore? LoL


Was at the International at midnight and in the office loading trucks at 6:30


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

eejack said:


> I'm not sure what part of what I have said you think is untrue but just read some of the threads around here. Most of the negative comments come from non union electricians and most of the positive comments come from union electricians. I am not saying, but most.
> 
> The difference, I believe, stems from the internal bias of the non union hiring manager. In essence, nearly everyone hired at a non union company gets selected by the same person. That person will hire folks based on their bias. It may not be overt or purposeful, but it does happen.
> 
> ...


I have been an electrician for 27 years. 15 of those as an IBEW member. There is no difference in the bias or treatment of women in or out of the union. Your diverse work force is all union as is your experience.


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

brian john said:


> Was at the International at midnight and in the office loading trucks at 6:30


Damn Bri...so you had a long night!

I might be coming down your way in December to train some guys. We should get lunch or a drink.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

icefalkon said:


> Here in Local 3 the number of female electricians rivals the total number of electricians in many jurisdictions of posters on this forum...union or non union. Therefore we have a unique outlook on this subject.


There is nothing unique to that, as a percentage I bet you are the same as many large shops.




> once the person is in the "system" there is no bias as to sex, race, or religion. It's cold, fair, and it does it's job.


There is as much or as little bias in 'the system' as there is outside it. People are people, each brings their own beliefs with them. The fact someone is in the union does not take away their biases.



> Every single General Foreman, Foreman, and Sub Foreman are required to take sexual harassment classes. It's not a maybe thing, it's REQUIRED here.


Same here bud, welcome to the 21st century. Actually all of our employees get some sexual harassment training.



> I can say this without a doubt, and having just got back from breakfast with one of the largest non union contractors here in NYC where this was the topic of conversation! A female is offered much more room for advancement within the IBEW than any private or merit shop can offer.


You can say whatever you want but it is not true.




> The educational opportunities alone make it worth while...but then add in the medical benefits...As well as the opportunity to re-enter the trade after raising children! I'd say yeah...it's better for her on our side of the fence.


Again, the same here.

You keep telling us what merit shops don't have when you really have no idea at all what it available to those that look for good merit shops. Sure there are crappy merit shops, there are also great merit shops. 




> This denigrated into people calling EE a bigot, racist, and all he was doing was honestly answering the woman's question.


Honestly?

There was not much honest about it. Maybe we can say it is honestly what he thinks but the reality is not the same.




> The amount of baiting here is off the chart. Can't it just be kept civil...but no...the sheer number of smart-asses here rivals amateur night at a comedy club.


Funny, you find it fine to put down open shops but if the union is questioned it is 'baiting'.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

icefalkon said:


> This denigrated into people calling EE a bigot, racist, and all he was doing was honestly answering the woman's question. The amount of baiting here is off the chart. Can't it just be kept civil...but no...the sheer number of smart-asses here rivals amateur night at a comedy club.
> 
> As always, this is just my opinion...not worth the HTML it's read on...but it's mine.
> 
> Thanks.


That you cannot see his post as trying to denigrate open shops is in itself a narrowed minded approach to the subject, or at a minimum is operating with blinders on or inexpierence with open shop workers that may come from living in the most unionized state in the country.

In reviewing all the post I see no one attacking or making disparaging remarks about unions or open shop, they the guy that always cries foul when facts are stated against his chosen career path, post a something that is beyond ludicrous.

Be fair, be honest, be open minded. I fail to see how being the member of a union necessairly makes one less likly to be a chauvinist. Are there some in the union that are more open minded than open shop workers you bet there are. Are there some open shop workers that are more open minded than union members, you bet there are.


http://money.msn.com/investing/latest.aspx?post=e568e049-1433-4623-9e2e-49baede19707


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## MollyHatchet29 (Jan 24, 2012)

brian john said:


> That you cannot see his post as trying to denigrate open shops is in itself a narrowed minded approach to the subject, or at a minimum is operating with blinders on or inexpierence with open shop workers that may come from living in the most unionized state in the country.
> 
> In reviewing all the post I see no one attacking or making disparaging remarks about unions or open shop, they the guy that always cries foul when facts are stated against his chosen career path, post a something that is beyond ludicrous.
> 
> ...


Once again, you hit the nail on the head. I will say I agree that union members have better access to additional training, usually free of charge once they reach JW status. However, I've found that there's a large age gap (and I can only speak for my local). There are many 45-62 year old males. Most of whom came up in the trade when women on the job didn't exist in the amounts that it does today. Some, not all, still have that old school mentality that women aren't supposed to be there. Heck, I've even heard that the younger guys are stealing their jobs. Then, there are mostly younger apprentices. I don't see very many 25-30 something JWs. Male or female. Where are they? Where'd they all go? I've asked this since my first year. 
Sexual harassment (accusations, training or otherwise) isn't strictly a union/trade/gender only thing. It's federal law. 
Also, to say a female will only get certain rights, benefits, etc by going union is purely speculative. 
In the end, it's based on the individual. If you want something bad enough, you'll seek out the training and push yourself to be good at whatever you want to do, no matter if you join a union or choose not to.


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

BBQ said:


> There is nothing unique to that, as a percentage I bet you are the same as many large shops.
> 
> 
> *We have over 1000 female journey-persons in one single location. *
> ...


*Hmmm where did I "put down" open shops? I don't find it "fine" to put down shops of either slant. I've said this often enough...I don't judge by WHO you work for, I judge a person by the WORK they do man. 

*
That you cannot see his post as trying to denigrate open shops is in itself a narrowed minded approach to the subject, or at a minimum is operating with blinders on or inexpierence with open shop workers that may come from living in the most unionized state in the country.

*My comments were about his answering the OP's question and have nothing to do with my views on shop bashing. I deal with open shops more than most of our 30,000 journeyman local does Bri. I'm the guy that was selected to interact impartially with them. How many open shops do you have in your area? In NYC we have over 5000 independant non union electrical shops. Yes, 5000 SHOPS within 5 Boroughs...each with an average of 10 men! I interact with a whopping 20 of them on a regular basis...not including those I know who are now in our bidding arena. I'm speaking from experience dealing with owners on every level...from the $500M/yr corporation to the mom and pop shop in Bensonhurst Brooklyn. Interestingly enough...merit shops number one gripe about our "club"...the IBEW is...that they have to agree to take men from the Hall. It's not about money, it's not about laziness, it's about not being able to pick and choose their employees. I happen to agree with them on that note. The contractor should have more say in who they hire. As long as they hire FROM the hall. 

Regardless, my comments were neither from inexperience, blindness, or bias...they simply were about answering the OP's question. 

As to the whole chauvinistic mentality. I'm the first to admit and point the finger at my organization for being that way. Huge steps have been taken and programs put in place here in NYC...the second largest concentration of electricians in the United States. Arguably tied with LA for the largest...but anyway...Yes, NY is the most densely unionized State, but remember...I am in NYC...the MOST liberal of all the cities within this State. The tide has turned against union workers...for now. It's happened before, it will happen again. That's the great thing about this organization...we've weathered just about everything thrown at us. We've survived because we adapt. The IBEW is far from perfect, as a contractor you know this. However, it's also changed immensely over the last 20+ years. 


I wish everyone good luck with the storm coming! Me...I'm getting out of here and heading upstate NY for the week! 


Be safe everyone!*


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

icefalkon said:


> Hmmm where did I "put down" open shops? I don't find it "fine" to put down shops of either slant. I've said this often enough...I don't judge by WHO you work for, I judge a person by the WORK they do man.
> 
> 
> That you cannot see his post as trying to denigrate open shops is in itself a narrowed minded approach to the subject, or at a minimum is operating with blinders on or inexpierence with open shop workers that may come from living in the most unionized state in the country.
> ...


Not bashing? Why say this then. 

Most electricians are male biased unfortunately, but you will find that union workers tend to be more open about who they work with.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

icefalkon said:


> *Hmmm where did I "put down" open shops?*


*

Pretty much with every post you make. The discouraging thing is that I really don't think you see it. You just put them down with the air that union is always superior and wonder why people question it.*


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

BBQ said:


> Pretty much with every post you make. The discouraging thing is that I really don't think you see it. You just put them down with the air that union is always superior and wonder why people question it.


Really? That's odd, I certainly don't see my posts that way. As a matter of fact, I'm completely open to someone working non union as long as their employer provides them with benefits that they are happy with. I do not believe my posts suggest anything but that.

There are great non union shops out there, there are great union shops out there...and there are crap shops of both persuasions. What else is there to be said about it? 

I don't go out of my way to verbalize against anyone non union unless provoked. In any of my posts...go through them ALL...and read them contextually. You'll see that I value the workers skills OVER who they work FOR. 

If provoked and responding to someone's post, then that's another story. As a matter of fact, even THEN...I try to maintain respect for the worker themselves in what I type. Don't go half ass quoting me without reading and putting the context of my response. Normally I consider every word carefully and proof read it before posting a response. Of course there have been times I've said things I regret BBQ. I believe I apologized to you as a matter of fact for being disrespectful. 

My issue is this...can't everyone just agree to disagree about this without one side bashing the other? No one is "better" than anyone else here. We're all "here" because we care about our trade in general. The problems happen because we have some very intelligent people who believe strongly in their way of life...on both sides here. It's like putting 40 code guys in a room and saying who has a problem with Article 210? 

That's what we have here...people at the top of their game, arguing about things that frankly aren't going to change on either side. All are smart guys, all are passionate about their groups, but there's no rules so it's anything goes.

If I have offended anyone...union or non union in my posts about education or way of life. I sincerely apologize now.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

icefalkon said:


> Ha...and it's only 9:45AM...doesn't anyone work on Saturdays anymore? LoL


No, why would you? 
I have a family, that's much more important.


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

backstay said:


> Not bashing? Why say this then.
> 
> Most electricians are male biased unfortunately, but you will find that union workers tend to be more open about who they work with.



*My responses were in bold case Backstay...which part do you find where I was "bashing" someone? In your quote of me...you quoted Brian as well. *


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

BBQ said:


> Pretty much with every post you make. The discouraging thing is that I really don't think you see it. You just put them down with the air that union is always superior and wonder why people question it.


A lot of us " organized " guys have been on both sides of the fence and have seen the advantages and disadvantages of being union and non union . Bottom line is , a good worker is a good worker and a slug is a slug , union or non union ! The difference here is a slug working for an open shop will keep getting fired from contractor to contractor . One , in the union however , may always be the first to be laid off , but will technically always have a job . I do think the union is a little more welcoming to female electricians than open shops though . I've worked with several women in the trade and aside from them not being as physically strong , they can usually do the work .


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## CADPoint (Jul 5, 2007)

I believe the thread is way gone past what the OP asked.
To the OP!

My thoughts are that you are not using all the available resources at your disposal.
There are usually free consults with advisors at your school be it career or placement types.

My suggestion is to go talk to the resource people who can accessed your sitiuation, maybe even test your aptitude for mechanical work. College isn't for everyone, I went back at 23 and finished a two year program.
Oh about 70-80 miles west of you is one of the best trade schools in the country.
www.zanestate.edu.

What no one has stated is that you will need a good answer as to why you dropped out of school. "Well it was not me": 
well everyone can understand this but it can also be a point of bias. Oh wait, she won't finish things in a review of an application.

Don't just drop out of school...


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

icefalkon said:


> My responses were in bold case Backstay...which part do you find where I was "bashing" someone? In your quote of me...you quoted Brian as well.


You said " union workers tend to be more open to who they work with" . You live in a narrow world of union workers(maybe 20 percent of the workforce). I have worked in both. First as a Teamster, then a non union electrician, then as a IBEW electrician and now as a non union contractor/electrician. Construction workers are construction workers, I have never in 30 years seen one group more or less open to women working in their trade. You where taking a dig at non union electricians when none was necessary. She asked about entering the trade and what to expect.


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

icefalkon said:


> Really? That's odd, I certainly don't see my posts that way. As a matter of fact, I'm completely open to someone working non union as long as their employer provides them with benefits that they are happy with. I do not believe my posts suggest anything but that.
> 
> There are great non union shops out there, there are great union shops out there...and there are crap shops of both persuasions. What else is there to be said about it?
> 
> ...


 NOT one of us in the trade lives an ideal life, so why do we constantly LOOK for ANY REASON to put others down? Why are we not trying to help each other as humans instead of all the stereo typical slants of angst? Hey I love my life as an union electrician and realize it is not a life that all would or could enjoy. I have also been caught up in the little traps set by TROLLS just stir the ire of others and typed away to explain where I was coming from. I have come to terms with the fact there are those out there who have not experienced a true love from a family of union Brothers and Sisters such as I have.We can help each other but just my forefathers who made sacrifices for our benefit, someone has to be first in extending a hand to help instead of post with evil intent.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

MollyHatchet29 said:


> I have to agree with Brian. Your "theory" is crap. It's filled with massive amounts of judgements. Straight facts? No. Maybe a half truth and your own personal twist on it. Jeeze, it's hard to post when all you want to do is kick someone in the face.


You know, there is not a single mean spirited, dishonest or insulting word in anything I have written on the subject. I don't want to kick anyone in the face.

Seriously - you folks need to stop projecting.


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

eejack said:


> You know, there is not a single mean spirited, dishonest or insulting word in anything I have written on the subject. I don't want to kick anyone in the face.
> 
> Seriously - you folks need to stop projecting.


Rodney king ( RIP ) said it best . Can't we all just get along ? My personal favorite of all time is " opinions are like assholes , everybody has one ! "


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

drumnut08 said:


> Rodney king ( RIP ) said it best . Can't we all just get along ? My personal favorite of all time is " opinions are like assholes , everybody has one ! "


And they all stink too


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

eejack said:


> You know, there is not a single mean spirited, dishonest or insulting word in anything I have written on the subject. I don't want to kick anyone in the face.
> 
> Seriously - you folks need to stop projecting.


Seriously - you now are telling someone how they feel?


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

brian john said:


> That you cannot see his post as trying to denigrate open shops is in itself a narrowed minded approach to the subject, or at a minimum is operating with blinders on or inexpierence with open shop workers that may come from living in the most unionized state in the country.


Look BJ - you want to pick a fight over this because you have your own issues, fine. I did not denigrate anyone, well *except for you personally* because you are an anti-union back door dealing troll with an aggrandized view of your worth.

So there you go - now I have picked on someone.

You have no clue what you are talking about.

If you were dipped in clue musk and through into a clue pit during clue mating season, you could not catch a clue.

Learn to read, then learn to think, then learn to write, then come back here and explain to me how you completely misunderstood what I wrote.

Moron.

I will use really small words so you understand it.

Non union - many less female electricians. Everyone in shop picked by one person. Everyone one person picks is similiar.

Union - many more female electricians. More mixing of workers. 

More mixing means more acceptance of strange things.

Now how in the sam hill you got that I was denigrating anyone is beyond me. You must either be the stupidest person on this forum or you just want to attack me or you are just projecting your own fears and bigotry.

Every post you want to pick a fight. You have nothing nice to say. What a waste....


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

BBQ said:


> Seriously - you now are telling someone how they feel?


Seriously - now you are acting like I am telling someone how they feel?

getagrip.jpg


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Brother Noah said:


> NOT one of us in the trade lives an ideal life, so why do we constantly LOOK for ANY REASON to put others down? Why are we not trying to help each other as humans instead of all the stereo typical slants of angst? Hey I love my life as an union electrician and realize it is not a life that all would or could enjoy. I have also been caught up in the little traps set by TROLLS just stir the ire of others and typed away to explain where I was coming from. I have come to terms with the fact there are those out there who have not experienced a true love from a family of union Brothers and Sisters such as I have.We can help each other but just my forefathers who made sacrifices for our benefit, someone has to be first in extending a hand to help instead of post with evil intent.


Man that was inspiring, uplifting and beautiful. Right up to the part where you called everyone who disagrees with you a Troll. 

The women asked about entering the trade in the union from a female standpoint. Not one non union posted disparaged the union. They gave her pros and cons to a women working in a male dominated trade. It wasn't until your union thug slammed non union electricians as closed minded that things got uncivil. Then you chimed in this post calling people trolls. It's pretty obvious to me who the trolls are.


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

backstay said:


> Man that was inspiring, uplifting and beautiful. Right up to the part where you called everyone who disagrees with you a Troll.
> 
> The women asked about entering the trade in the union from a female standpoint. Not one non union posted disparaged the union. They gave her pros and cons to a women working in a male dominated trade. It wasn't until your union thug slammed non union electricians as closed minded that things got uncivil. Then you chimed in this post calling people trolls. It's pretty obvious to me who the trolls are.


My previous post was to both union and or nonunion responses!!!

You are who you are, and proved my point!!!


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

backstay said:


> Not bashing? Why say this then.
> 
> Most electricians are male biased unfortunately, but you will find that union workers tend to be more open about who they work with.


icefalkon did not say that. I did. And I stand by it. 

Why?

Men are male biased. Most construction workers are men.

Simple logistics. Union work forces tend to be more diverse, being surrounded by diversity breeds acceptance, hence union workers tend to be more open about who they work with.

Shocking folks found insults in this simple factual statement.

I wonder what that shows us.


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## MollyHatchet29 (Jan 24, 2012)

eejack said:


> You know, there is not a single mean spirited, dishonest or insulting word in anything I have written on the subject. I don't want to kick anyone in the face.
> 
> Seriously - you folks need to stop projecting.


My apologies. I guess I just get a bit riled when one, you're not a woman in the union and two, when you say your post contained no judgements and only facts. It was insulting as well as dishonest. I'll keep my size 4 boots away from your face however.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

MollyHatchet29 said:


> My apologies. I guess I just get a bit riled when one, you're not a woman in the union and two, when you say your post contained no judgements and only facts. It was insulting as well as dishonest. I'll keep my size 4 boots away from your face however.


No, I am not a woman, and I cannot speak for women. I can however speak for myself and for my observations.

I'm not sure what it is you think I wrote that is insulting but whatever it is, I apologize.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

eejack said:


> No, I am not a woman, and I cannot speak for women. I can however speak for myself and for my observations.
> 
> I'm not sure what it is you think I wrote that is insulting but whatever it is, I apologize.


Its insulting to blatantly lie, that's all


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

eejack said:


> i
> Simple logistics. Union work forces tend to be more diverse, being surrounded by diversity breeds acceptance, hence union workers tend to be more open about who they work with.
> s.


You are seriously delusional. I would guess if you got of the house into the real world once in a while you could broaden what appears to be a narrow minded approach to life.


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## black (Oct 12, 2011)

Hi, another sister apprentice here. I'll address some other points people have made in a different post, but here's a start. Unemployment is a huge, huge issue among IBEW members, but that seems to be highly variable (or at least, I hope it is - see my other thread). Having said that, I can't encourage you enough. I absolutely love this trade. Getting into it is honestly one of the best things I've done with my life.

What you need right now is experience. Here are places to start:
1. Habitat for Humanity is a volunteer organization that builds homes for those in need. Get involved and participate in a build. No experience necessary. 
2. Use your resources. Scour the people you know, and look for anyone who is a tradesperson. Put the word out that you are available as a helper. Find out which people and you know need electrical work done, and then contact an electrician. Explain your situation to that person, and then offer the electrician a deal. Say that you have work you can offer him/her if they are willing to have you along as a helper or even just let you shadow.
3. Contact every contractor you can find and ask them for work as a helper. Almost all of them will say no, but you don't care about that. Keep going until you find someone that will give you a chance. 

Edited to add another quick tip: Once you get in the trade, you will deal with men who will act like morons to you because you are a woman. As they do this, picture them wearing a tiara and a diaper. It helps.

Good luck!


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## Vic098 (Oct 27, 2012)

brian john said:


> You are seriously delusional. I would guess if you got of the house into the real world once in a while you could broaden what appears to be a narrow minded approach to life.


What was so _narrow_ about that post?
Quick explain it to me before I am banned for the 10000th time.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Vic098 said:


> What was so _narrow_ about that post?
> Quick explain it to me before I am banned for the 10000th time.


 
What's up slick?


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## Vic098 (Oct 27, 2012)

mcclary's electrical said:


> What's up slick?


Nothing.
I went out and bought a gallon of milk. I think I am ready for the pending storm now.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Vic098 said:


> Nothing.
> I went out and bought a gallon of milk. I think I am ready for the pending storm now.


 
I bought 4 gennies. I heard the guy down the road sold several today for 3000

8kw portable:huh:


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## Vic098 (Oct 27, 2012)

mcclary's electrical said:


> I bought 4 gennies. I heard the guy down the road sold several today for 3000
> 
> 8kw portable:huh:


Really?????

:shifty:


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## Roger (Jul 7, 2007)

icefalkon said:


> A female is offered much more room for advancement within the IBEW than any private or merit shop can offer.
> 
> Thanks.


Considering the source I only have one simple statement, Bull Hockey

Roger


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## Vic098 (Oct 27, 2012)

Roger said:


> Considering the source I only have one simple statement, Bull Hockey
> 
> Roger


Can you disprove his statement?


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Its insulting to blatantly lie, that's all


What lie?


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

brian john said:


> You are seriously delusional. I would guess if you got of the house into the real world once in a while you could broaden what appears to be a narrow minded approach to life.


Seriously?

Let's just go with delusional, you know, instead of contributing something relevant or factual, just go with delusional.

You really don't know what you are talking about, do you.

You have not read a word I posted, just kneejerk OMG whargabbel.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Roger said:


> Considering the source I only have one simple statement, Bull Hockey
> 
> Roger


I see you have made some find contributions to this thread and really helped the OP out tremendously.

Good job Roger, good job.


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

Roger said:


> That's because you choose not to see things outside your little world.
> 
> Not only I have also trained quite a few women, I have moved a number of them up into supervisory positions running projects over many male co-workers and believe it or not, this is in Merrit shops and goes back as far as the early 80's.
> 
> ...


I don't get out to N.C very often.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

I can't believe i missed this whole thread. Damnit the title looked boring. Looks to me like the union boys came in and ruined a perfectly good thread. That's just from the outside looking in.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

I don't see the point of this game.

The trades can be a rough place. A lot of _guys _get their feelings hurt; it's definitely not going to be easier for a woman. 

Unfortunately there are misogynistic jerkoffs in union and merit. I hope the OP doesn't run into any, but she might well, and shading the truth to the contrary serves no purpose.

-John


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

Jeesh. What is the point of a union section when it gets crapped on all the time?


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

big2bird said:


> Jeesh. What is the point of a union section when it gets crapped on all the time?


That is the point apparently.

Everyone is so quick to attack the union members they don't even read what we write, just start screaming foul and getting insulted.


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

eejack said:


> That is the point apparently.
> 
> Everyone is so quick to attack the union members they don't even read what we write, just start screaming foul and getting insulted.


I don't understand why their mangina's get all twisted up.


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

rip5682 said:


> Hi I was wondering what everyones opinion or advice would be to a female, such as myself, attempting to join the apprenticeship program for the union. I honestly know very little about electrical work, but am in college now and hate the system and would like to join a trade. After looking around I was considering applying for the electrical uinion apprenticeship in Febuary. I am very good at math and catch on to things very easily. I grew up in a garage pretty much so I do have some common mechanical knowledge. If I did pass though does anyone have any take on how any boss is going to feel about having a inexperienced girl on their crew to put it plainly?


This is the original question. No one but someone in the union could answer HER specific question. Someone NOT in the union has no clue, or is merely interjecting THEIR beliefs, and not facts.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

big2bird said:


> This is the original question. No one but someone in the union could answer HER specific question. Someone NOT in the union has no clue, or is merely interjecting THEIR beliefs, and not facts.


 Unless you will be working with her on the same crew, on the same jobsite, for the same company, in the same local, all you have is your beliefs and not facts.

None of us know what reality a female candidate will actually have to put up with, all we can do is guess.

-John


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

Big John said:


> Unless you will be working with her on the same crew, on the same jobsite, for the same company, in the same local, all you have is your beliefs and not facts.
> 
> None of us know what reality a female candidate will actually have to put up with, all we can do is guess.
> 
> -John


Her abilities will tell. 
One of my female trainees is a well respected foreman in Riverside. 
Another was "National Apprtentice of the year" for IBEW.
I think I know a tad about our program.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Big John said:


> Unless you will be working with her on the same crew, on the same jobsite, for the same company, in the same local, all you have is your beliefs and not facts.
> 
> None of us know what reality a female candidate will actually have to put up with, all we can do is guess.
> 
> -John


Actually, we have union sisters on this site who could - but why would they? I suspect they are just smarter than the guys and don't post where the trolls live.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

eejack said:


> Actually, we have union sisters on this site who could - but why would they? I suspect they are just smarter than the guys and don't post where the trolls live.


Yes Sir, His royal Highness Eejack bestowing his knowledge on us lesser mortals.:notworthy::notworthy::notworthy:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

big2bird said:


> Jeesh. What is the point of a union section when it gets crapped on all the time?


One short sentence and yet two real problems with it. 

1) No one in this thread 'crapped on the union'. People had disagreements with each others views but no crapping on the union was done. Most told the OP to go for it.

2) The name of this forum section is simply _'Union Topics'_ it is not called _'Just Pro Union Topics'_ or _'Only union topics that make big2bird happy'_

But carry on with your narrow view of things, it is entertaining. :jester:


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

sbrn33 said:


> Looks to me like the union boys came in and ruined a perfectly good thread.


That's EXACTLY what happened 


eejack said:


> What lie?


 









eejack said:


> That is the point apparently.
> 
> Everyone is so quick to attack the union members they don't even read what we write, just start screaming foul and getting insulted.


We read EXACTLY what you write. Your position and bias are pretty apparant



big2bird said:


> Jeesh. What is the point of a union section when it gets crapped on all the time?


Crapped on? The name of the section is "union topics"
Not "union members only"


eejack said:


> I suspect they are just smarter than the guys and don't post where the trolls live.


You're one of the biggest trolls on this site. You have started, and participated in, more union arguments than I can even count. And all you've really proven is the union's typical strong sense of entitlement that is ALWAYS apparant on jobs, carries right over into this forum. You actually think non union guys should not be able to post in "YOUR" section


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