# Window unit a/c afci or not?



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

It still plugs into a receptacle. And all receptacles in bedroom must be AFCId. Appliance or not, 210.12(B) mandates it.

Your clock radio, vacuum cleaner, cordless phone, TV, stereo, Wii, etc. are still appliances.


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

To take it one step farther, 210.12 states all 120 volt single phase, 15 and 20 ampere branch circuits supplying*outlets* installed in dwelling unit bedrooms shall be protected by a listed arc-fault breaker. So even if this A/C unit was a hard wired 120 volt 15 or 20 amp unit it must be AFCI protected if located in a dwelling unit bedroom. (This is according to the 2005 NEC) The definition of "outlet" would include the J-box for a hard wired piece of equipment.

Chris


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## ralph (Apr 6, 2008)

A step further. I consider light fixtures outkets also, so therefore I put them on AFCI. I get the feeling Im the only one around here that does it.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

ralph said:


> A step further. I consider light fixtures outkets also, so therefore I put them on AFCI. I get the feeling Im the only one around here that does it.


You and the NEC.......


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

ralph said:


> A step further. I consider light fixtures outkets also, so therefore I put them on AFCI. I get the feeling Im the only one around here that does it.


Correct, light fixtures are "outlets" so are single station smoke alarms, both need to be installed on an AFCI protected circuit if they are located within a bedroom. (2005 NEC)

Chris


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

raider1 said:


> Correct, light fixtures are "outlets" so are single station smoke alarms, both need to be installed on an AFCI protected circuit if they are located within a bedroom. (2005 NEC)
> 
> Chris


Some jurisdictions exempt smoke alarms from AFCI protection.


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

JohnJ0906 said:


> Some jurisdictions exempt smoke alarms from AFCI protection.


Yes, but the NEC without amendments would require a smoke alarm to be AFCI protected when located within a bedroom. 

I know that Idaho exempted smoke alarms from AFCI protection.

Chris


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## gilbequick (Oct 6, 2007)

An outlet is any box with electrical wiring that is designed to be tapped in to for power. A receptacle is something you plug things into via cord and plug. 
Ralph, you're not the only one!


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

raider1 said:


> Yes, but the NEC without amendments would require a smoke alarm to be AFCI protected when located within a bedroom.
> 
> 
> Chris


No argument there. :thumbsup:


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

440.65 ,2002 and up.


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## ralph (Apr 6, 2008)

Thank God.
Alot of things are done in , should i say , a very non ethical way down here. As I mentioned in an earlier post, ( Im in SAVANNAH Ga area ) that a county near me ( Beaufort SC ) Allows SEU cable to go 35 ' from the meter, with no disconnect . thats as the crow flys . Also, no need to ground any rebar in your foundations here either. I actually failed a slab inspection because I had # 4 cu going to that rebar . Of course , im probably the only electricain that installs 2 ground rods also. 
Heck , chances are , im one of a small bunch that have a 2008 code book.


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## gilbequick (Oct 6, 2007)

ralph said:


> Heck , chances are , im one of a small bunch that have a 2008 code book.


I'm the only one in the company I work for. There are over 20 employees there.


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

raider1 said:


> To take it one step farther, 210.12 states all 120 volt single phase, 15 and 20 ampere branch circuits supplying*outlets* installed in dwelling unit bedrooms shall be protected by a listed arc-fault breaker. So even if this A/C unit was a hard wired 120 volt 15 or 20 amp unit it must be AFCI protected if located in a dwelling unit bedroom. (This is according to the 2005 NEC) The definition of "outlet" would include the J-box for a hard wired piece of equipment.
> 
> Chris


Nice reply Chris, 

I agree that a hard wire A/C unit with AFCI protection is a good idea, but I don't think a J-box is an outlet as described in Chapter 1 of the NEC.

"Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment."

Now you may argue that a J-box provides current to the utilized equipment but I would counter that the said current is taken from its' source, a loadcenter or another panel, not the J-box. My opinion of a J-box is it is a location where there are junctions in the circuit and there is no current taken at this point.

To support this position, it has been established that a switch is not an outlet and if installed where AFCI protection is required it doesn't need to be installed on the AFCI protected circuit. The reason being is that no current can be taken from a switch as with a J-box.


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

WIREDOG said:


> Ok so here's the question. Does a 120v window unit a/c installed in a bedroom require afci protection? I see both sides of why yes and why no. It is considered an appliance but it is also in a habitable space. Any ideas?


Yes it does require afci protection.


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## ralph (Apr 6, 2008)

The local supply house has a stack on the shelf behind the counter. There is dust on the stack. Really.

By the way, this county is not enforcing the afci changes/ additions . I asked the local building inspector, and he said not for years.


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

ralph said:


> The local supply house has a stack on the shelf behind the counter. There is dust on the stack. Really.
> 
> By the way, this county is not enforcing the afci changes/ additions . I asked the local building inspector, and he said not for years.


It is required by the 2008. Most of the places we work are still on the 2005 so far.


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## ralph (Apr 6, 2008)

I bet that it wont happen here 2011.
Also, tamper proof outlets wont happen here. Ever. 
They can be very stuborn here in the SE. Maybe the word is ignorant.

Needles to say , if your bidding against other companies that dont install to the Nec, your at a disadvantage. Personally , I dont ignore the code , I just look for builders that no the changes , and respect the fact that I intend on putting them in.


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

There isn't a big price difference with the tamper proof outlets is there?


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## ralph (Apr 6, 2008)

I honestly dont know .
Any difference, along with various afci breakers, and service disconnects, ( not to mentipn 4/0 seu vs 4/0 ser ) can add up. 
I forgot ,also I guess its legal in some peoples brains to have the dinning room on a 15 amp ckt.
No enforcement of the national electric code. none.


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## chollapete (Apr 18, 2008)

Roger123 said:


> Nice reply Chris,
> 
> I agree that a hard wire A/C unit with AFCI protection is a good idea, but I don't think a J-box is an outlet as described in Chapter 1 of the NEC.
> 
> ...


Good point if a junction box is only being used to splice legs together. Not so sure if it's being used to splice the tap wires to the conductor wires. Think of a junction box used to splice the taps (leads) of an oven to the circuit conductors. I was going to use the example of a recessed light, but thought you might argue that the point where power is being taking is the lamp socket rather than the junction box attached to the rough-in can. 



Roger123 said:


> To support this position, it has been established that a switch is not an outlet and if installed where AFCI protection is required it doesn't need to be installed on the AFCI protected circuit. The reason being is that no current can be taken from a switch as with a J-box.


Dude, this one is easy. A switch is a _device_, not an outlet. [2008 NEC Art. 100, p 23, Handbook edition]. Outlets use power, devices do not use power. The handbook adds this to the definition of outlet:"This term is frequently misused. Common examples of outlets include lighting outlets, receptacle outlets, and smoke alarm outlets."​Definition of outlet, again:"The point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment." [2008 NEC Art. 100]​So, if the tap wires (lead wires) come in the box from the factory with the utilization equipment, they are part of the listed and labeled assembly. They are part of the equipment. The point where they are attached to the wiring system (j-box) is the point where current leaves the wiring system and enters the utilization equipment. So, that's the junction box, even for rough-in cans.

IMHO.


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

Roger123 said:


> Nice reply Chris,
> 
> I agree that a hard wire A/C unit with AFCI protection is a good idea, but I don't think a J-box is an outlet as described in Chapter 1 of the NEC.
> 
> ...


I agree that a switch is not an outlet, a switch is a control device. A switch does not utilize electric energy.

But, a J-box where the connection to an appliance that utilizes electric energy is made, would be a "point on the wire system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment."

The wiring within the walls up to the j-box would be the premise wiring system and the j-box where you would connect the factory whip from the appliance to the wiring system would be an outlet.

Chris


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

Guess we can argue all day long as to where "A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment" is. 

IMO, common use of outlets and the required AFCI protection is for equipment that is "plugged" into the outlet. J-boxes do not have outlet receptacles that equipment can be plugged into by cord & plug. Guess, and obviously the definition of an "outlet" can be interpreted differently, but again IMO, 210.12 general requirement is for equipment that is connected by plug & cord.


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

Roger123 said:


> Guess we can argue all day long as to where "A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment" is.
> 
> IMO, common use of outlets and the required AFCI protection is for equipment that is "plugged" into the outlet. J-boxes do not have outlet receptacles that equipment can be plugged into by cord & plug. Guess, and obviously the definition of an "outlet" can be interpreted differently, but again IMO, 210.12 general requirement is for equipment that is connected by plug & cord.


Lights and smoke alarms are not cord and plug connect yet they are required to be AFCI protected.:icon_wink:

Chris


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

raider1 said:


> Lights and smoke alarms are not cord and plug connect yet they are required to be AFCI protected.:icon_wink:
> 
> Chris


That's true, but they are not connected to a J-box.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Roger123 said:


> That's true, but they are not connected to a J-box.


You don't put boxes in for your lights and smokes?


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

480sparky said:


> You don't put boxes in for your lights and smokes?


No, not J-boxes, outlet boxes.


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## matapus (May 1, 2008)

Why not just buy a 240v. a\c and just run a 240v. line to a single recepticle?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Roger123 said:


> No, not J-boxes, outlet boxes.


The difference is......?


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

matapus said:


> Why not just buy a 240v. a\c and just run a 240v. line to a single recepticle?


 
yeah for now it will work but just wait one of the days someone will change the code for the 240v devices.

Merci,Marc


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

Roger123 said:


> No, not J-boxes, outlet boxes.


6 of one, half dozen of the other.

You would have to explain how the NEC differentiates these.


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

Roger123 said:


> No, not J-boxes, outlet boxes.


I agree with John and Ken, The NEC has no distintion between a J-box and an outlet box.

Chris


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

matapus said:


> Why not just buy a 240v. a\c and just run a 240v. line to a single recepticle?


Why not buy a new house with central air?

Chris


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

raider1 said:


> Why not buy a new house with central air?
> 
> Chris


 
Cause the hot air heat that goes with central air causes allergies.:jester:


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

randomkiller said:


> Cause the hot air heat that goes with central air causes allergies.:jester:


 
AhhCHoooo !! dang .,, did the hayfever is around here again ??


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

frenchelectrican said:


> AhhCHoooo !! dang .,, did the hayfever is around here again ??


 
I currently live in the first house in my life with hot air heating, always had hot water or steam. This stuff sucks, if it's on over night I get up hacking with dried out eyes and sinuses. I hate it. Unless I have a 30 plus minute ride to the job my head won't clear up til after I start in the am. And talk about a dusty house, with two dogs.


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