# Insulated screwdrivers you can count on?



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

This is the law in Canada:

"CSA Z462 requires workers working in areas where
electrical hazards are present to be provided with
and use protective equipment that is designed and
constructed for the specific parts of the body to be
protected and for the work to be performed..."


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## Felandro (Mar 16, 2014)

Yeah well I don't think I'd have a job for much longer if I requested a full body suit to work on a 120/208 panel, trying to do the second best thing.


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## bkmichael65 (Mar 25, 2013)

Insulated tools usually just give you a false sense of security. There is rarely a valid reason for not being able to shut off power to work on something


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

Don't waste your money on expensive insulated tools. Black 33 is good for like 600 volts per wrap. You could insulate your entire tool collection for 10 bucks!!!


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## dcb_minded (May 19, 2014)

ponyboy said:


> Don't waste your money on expensive insulated tools. Black 33 is good for like 600 volts per wrap. You could insulate your entire tool collection for 10 bucks!!!


33 is like 6 bucks a roll! Use the dip stuff....

Sent from my SGH-T599 using Tapatalk


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## ohmontherange (May 7, 2008)

I count on any insulated tool, glove, blanket, line hose, etc until the insulation is compromised.


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## Felandro (Mar 16, 2014)

What I mean is having insulated screwdrivers just in case when I am in the panel putting in a circuit into the breaker my screwdriver slips and I don't get fried.


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## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

Felandro said:


> What I mean is having insulated screwdrivers just in case when I am in the panel putting in a circuit into the breaker my screwdriver slips and I don't get fried.


I use Wera and they're great, but I think you're missing the point. Turn the panel off and measure with a meter to make sure it's dead.


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## JMV (Aug 10, 2013)

I picked up a whole set of insulated Wiha screwdrivers from my local Sears for $15. They're great. I also have a Milwaukee set I got from Home Depot for $20 and I use those most every day. 

FWIW, you should be able to trust _any _of the insulated drivers you can buy.


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

Felandro said:


> What I mean is having insulated screwdrivers just in case when I am in the panel putting in a circuit into the breaker my screwdriver slips and I don't get fried.


That's such a bad outlook to have


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## Lone Crapshooter (Nov 8, 2008)

I have self insulated several screwdrivers over the past years . I do the 88 or the 33 then I go over it with some heat shrink. 
I also use the CIP Compositool . They are not insulated they are nonconductive. I have never broken one yet however I use them or any insulated screwdriver only when I have to. They are not my every day screwdriver. 

LC


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## Nuzzie (Jan 11, 2012)

I have insulated screwdrivers just to make the bosses happy really. I don't do live work. Wihas take an absolutely beating though. The insulation is really tough.


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## chewy (May 9, 2010)

Wiha, Felo, Wera all have quality insulation. I dont see the insulation as PPE type protection but more just to stop nuisance type incidents. If Im tying in a light fitting or socket live I just use regular non insulated pliers.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Felandro said:


> Yeah well I don't think I'd have a job for much longer if I requested a full body suit to work on a 120/208 panel, trying to do the second best thing.


So you're giving me effin' attitude, are you? 120V from hand to hand threw me across a room when I was an apprentice. Could have killed me.


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## chewy (May 9, 2010)

99cents said:


> So you're giving me effin' attitude, are you? 120V from hand to hand threw me across a room when I was an apprentice. Could have killed me.


Confusion... angry enough to swear, not angry enough to actually write it...


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

I think I got my point across, chewy.


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## chewy (May 9, 2010)

99cents said:


> I think I got my point across, chewy.


Effin A.


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## Felandro (Mar 16, 2014)

Vintage Sounds said:


> I use Wera and they're great, but I think you're missing the point. Turn the panel off and measure with a meter to make sure it's dead.


We are testing to make sure the plugs match up with the as built drawing which non of them do and the individual that wired the panel just left insulation and marrets for the next person to terminate under the breaker. So to test everything this way would take weeks since the shut off is on the bottom floor; some wires are left hanging as spares in the panel or there are breakers missing so we need to use another circuits breaker to test that plug etc.

99cents: How did that happen? Was that on a device or in a panel? I was taught the 1 hand rule whenever working in a panel to prevent that very thing from happening.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Look for the VDE double triangle or the IEC stamp. While some tools might perform better than others, all tools with that symbol and voltage class have met the same basic standards and I'd trust my safety to them equally.









Though I might be wary of super-cheap off-brand stuff just because of the risk of un-tested tools with counterfeit markings.


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## pwregan (Apr 13, 2011)

*insulated screwdrivers*

Your an apprentice and your working on live circuits??
The journeyman who you are working with is incompetent and should be removed from having apprentices working under him.
No reason for doing live work unless it is a hospital/critical care emergency repair to restore power or the likes- even that is not good enough for me to be exposed to the risks involved.
Do yourself a favor- start looking for another job quietly and when another job is found quit this one you have and move on, they obviously have no regard for their employees safety


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## BababooeyHTJ (May 31, 2013)

Dude, how is it possible that you don't occasionally work live?



Felandro said:


> What I mean is having insulated screwdrivers just in case when I am in the panel putting in a circuit into the breaker my screwdriver slips and I don't get fried.


No offense but you probably shouldn't be working in a live panel if you feel that way.


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## Bugz11B (May 12, 2013)

JMV said:


> I picked up a whole set of insulated Wiha screwdrivers from my local Sears for $15. They're great. I also have a Milwaukee set I got from Home Depot for $20 and I use those most every day.
> 
> FWIW, you should be able to trust _any _of the insulated drivers you can buy.


Out of the three sets of insulated screwdrivers I have had I like the Milwaukee ones the best, thats what I have now and what I think im going to stick with, I have become a big fan of Milwaukee tools these days.



ponyboy said:


> Don't waste your money on expensive insulated tools. Black 33 is good for like 600 volts per wrap. You could insulate your entire tool collection for 10 bucks!!!


I started to do this to my regular screw/nut drivers about a little while back seems to work just fine, good tip to give the young apprentice.


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

I don't work live, I'm to old to die. Shut off power, remove hardware and then if is needed for troubleshooting, power up and test while wearing the proper PPE.


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## BababooeyHTJ (May 31, 2013)

Shouldn't an electrician know how to work with electricity safely?

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

BababooeyHTJ said:


> Shouldn't an electrician know how to work with electricity safely?


 Understanding when it's best to shut off power to do work is a huge part of working on electricity safely.


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## BababooeyHTJ (May 31, 2013)

Big John said:


> Understanding when it's best to shut off power to do work is a huge part of working on electricity safely.


I don't disagree with that at all. But that's not every time that you're within 5 feet of it.


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## Chrisibew440 (Sep 13, 2013)

BababooeyHTJ said:


> Shouldn't an electrician know how to work with electricity safely?
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


Doesn't mean that we should.


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## BababooeyHTJ (May 31, 2013)

Chrisibew440 said:


> Doesn't mean that we should.


There are definitely times where you should.

Do you guys only do new work?


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## Chrisibew440 (Sep 13, 2013)

BababooeyHTJ said:


> There are definitely times where you should.
> 
> Do you guys only do new work?


I do everything and have done a lot but all my hands on with live electricity just taught me to turn it off. I've been known to shut down a juice plant.


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## bkmichael65 (Mar 25, 2013)

BababooeyHTJ said:


> Shouldn't an electrician know how to work with electricity safely?
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


Yes, but what happens when someone runs into you, something gets knocked over or random bad luck? I've seen some bad stuff happen to people working live and it wasn't anything they did....except choose to work live. I recall sneezing one time and ruining a brand new pair of kleins


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## Rat Scabies (Jun 11, 2012)

PPE is your _last line_ of defence. It's what will help you avoid serious injury and/or death. It's not so you can circumvent risk in your day-to-day tasks.

There is really no reason to be handling or pulling live BX whips. Your company is trying to save a buck by putting you at risk. 

The first piece of advice I got before I entered into the trade is *don't trust anyone*. Not your journeyman, not your foreman, not your boss. Always test everything yourself first before you strip or handle anything electrical.


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## fp.unit (Dec 18, 2012)

I've had 3 close calls with live BX whips as well. Scary. Unfortunately you can't even really test them. Twice I was simply trying to crack the armor to test them. It sucks most as an apprentice who is just being told what to do by others, you don't have the prints, the panel schedules, know what's fed from where, what "should" be dead, who ran what, where and when. Your life is literally in your JMs hands. I can guarantee when I'm a JM running work I'll be way more careful about circuit labelling, BX whips and things of that nature. I would actually make a rule if you run a whip you should crack it, expose 6" of wire and cap off all the wires so someone actually can put a volt tic to them.


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## westcan (Dec 29, 2013)

If there's no exposed bx to volt tic, I'll cut an inch off the end of the whip( without grabbing the bx) to make sure it's dead as a last resort. I'd rather blow my pliers than take 347 across my chest attempting to crack the cable to test it


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## Bugz11B (May 12, 2013)

fp.unit said:


> I've had 3 close calls with live BX whips as well. Scary. Unfortunately you can't even really test them. Twice I was simply trying to crack the armor to test them. It sucks most as an apprentice who is just being told what to do by others, you don't have the prints, the panel schedules, know what's fed from where, what "should" be dead, who ran what, where and when. Your life is literally in your JMs hands. I can guarantee when I'm a JM running work I'll be way more careful about circuit labelling, BX whips and things of that nature. I would actually make a rule if you run a whip you should crack it, expose 6" of wire and cap off all the wires so someone actually can put a volt tic to them.


Keep your standards high, sounds like your on the right track, making SOP's at a early stage bravo. Never get to comfortable/complacent.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Felandro said:


> We are testing to make sure the plugs match up with the as built drawing which non of them do and the individual that wired the panel just left insulation and marrets for the next person to terminate under the breaker. So to test everything this way would take weeks since the shut off is on the bottom floor; some wires are left hanging as spares in the panel or there are breakers missing so we need to use another circuits breaker to test that plug etc.
> 
> 99cents: How did that happen? Was that on a device or in a panel? I was taught the 1 hand rule whenever working in a panel to prevent that very thing from happening.


It was a split second lapse in concentration. It can happen to anybody.


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## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

Felandro said:


> We are testing to make sure the plugs match up with the as built drawing which non of them do and the individual that wired the panel just left insulation and marrets for the next person to terminate under the breaker. So to test everything this way would take weeks since the shut off is on the bottom floor; some wires are left hanging as spares in the panel or there are breakers missing so we need to use another circuits breaker to test that plug etc.


Without knowing what the building you're in is like, I still think there are better and safer ways to go about this job than what you are doing now. You could, for example use a continuity test to identify the wires in the panel or vice versa. One guy at the panel and one guy going around to different receptacles, etc. Each guy with a two way radio. Or you could do something similar with a breaker finder or toner. Energising is a crappy way to go about it.



fp.unit said:


> I've had 3 close calls with live BX whips as well. Scary. Unfortunately you can't even really test them. Twice I was simply trying to crack the armor to test them.


 Hopefully they weren't 347! If you're having this problem often you could try a Rotosplit, since it won't touch the conductors. It's metal though, so still not a _great_ idea in theory but your chances are still a lot better than if you were just snapping BX sideways. In 3+ years of using a Rotosplit mine has never touched the conductors. That only leaves the remote possibility of the exposed ends of of the conductors touching the armour as you slide it off. Not likely but not impossible depending on the circumstances.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Felandro said:


> We are testing to make sure the plugs match up with the as built drawing


Somebody should teach you what as builts are.


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## Felandro (Mar 16, 2014)

pwregan said:


> Your an apprentice and your working on live circuits??
> The journeyman who you are working with is incompetent and should be removed from having apprentices working under him.
> No reason for doing live work unless it is a hospital/critical care emergency repair to restore power or the likes- even that is not good enough for me to be exposed to the risks involved.
> Do yourself a favor- start looking for another job quietly and when another job is found quit this one you have and move on, they obviously have no regard for their employees safety


If I asked they wouldn't have a problem with turning the panel off I am sure, the problem is this is the first time I've worked on a panel and they could just get someone else to do it. They also pay the most out of the other places I've applied to and I have a family to support. I am super careful as I have had a couple scares already and double and triple check it. If everyone on the floor needs lights for example and it is fed from the panel, do most of you JM shut it off as well? What do the other workers do?


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Here's a suggestion but it probably won't fly with the dunderheads you're working for:

Buy yourself some Nomex coveralls. You're going to need them sometime in your life anyway. Maybe you will work industrial for awhile. If you're on a job that requires safety striping, wear your coveralls.

Put in a request for Class 00 insulated gloves. They're awkward but not too bad. Also put in a request for a face shield. This puts your employer in a spot. If he doesn't provide them, he's breaking the rules. If there is an event and you requested PPE that he didn't provide, he goes in front of a judge and deserves whatever he gets.

This should be discussed in your safety meetings and, if you don't have regular safety meetings, then you really are working for neanderthals.

I know it's tough to challenge your employer, especially as an apprentice, but if you're a family guy you're family doesn't want to see you hurt. That much is guaranteed.


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## Felandro (Mar 16, 2014)

99cents said:


> Here's a suggestion but it probably won't fly with the dunderheads you're working for:
> 
> Buy yourself some Nomex coveralls. You're going to need them sometime in your life anyway. Maybe you will work industrial for awhile. If you're on a job that requires safety striping, wear your coveralls.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the suggestion, this is along the lines of what another JM that was previously working in the oil sands has done not necessarily to put our employer on the spot but because we had a bit of an incident. This is a tenant improvement so we had all new roofing done, the roofers as they usually are decided to short cut and not ask questions before they did their job. They used screws (more like bolts with a point with how thick they are,) that went about 2 1/2" through the que deck. When we saw it we knew they would eventually end up drilling into our 347 lighting system which we thought was the worst case scenario. Last Friday it was much worse, one of our JM installed a roof top unit that required a I believe it was 600V 400Amps. When he fired it up to test it turns out the roofers screwed into the cable and that essentially lite the roof on fire with all the micro explosions. 

At the time we didn't know this had happened as the entire facility shut down, after some debate they pumped the main breaker and tried to start it not expecting it to work. It did of course start and with the draw on the system the kick it had to start up scared the **** out of our JM. After that he put in a request to have a suit on site in case they need to turn on main power after that. I have one question as I have held quite a few jobs. What are the limits of what the employer has to provide? Technically does he have to provide the suit since we are electricians or can they demand we provide it? If this is the case why are they not required to provide shoes or most other PPE. I have always had to provide my own glasses and vest and most other PPE at other places I've worked, is this normal?


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## EB Electric (Feb 8, 2013)

Felandro said:


> I have one question as I have held quite a few jobs. What are the limits of what the employer has to provide? Technically does he have to provide the suit since we are electricians or can they demand we provide it? If this is the case why are they not required to provide shoes or most other PPE. I have always had to provide my own glasses and vest and most other PPE at other places I've worked, is this normal?


The way I see it in regards to what does your boss have to supply you... its pretty simple. You have the right to refuse unsafe work. If you require your own safety equipment they should be telling you exactly what you need from day 1. Typically that would be cotton clothes, and work boots. Anything else, safety glasses, hardhat, gloves, visi vest, harness, if your task requires it they should be providing it. If they don't put in an effort and the money to allow you to work safely, I think they are taking advantage of you. If you would like better than what they provide that is up to you to supply. 



Felandro said:


> If I asked they wouldn't have a problem with turning the panel off I am sure, the problem is this is the first time I've worked on a panel and they could just get someone else to do it. They also pay the most out of the other places I've applied to and I have a family to support. I am super careful as I have had a couple scares already and double and triple check it. If everyone on the floor needs lights for example and it is fed from the panel, do most of you JM shut it off as well? What do the other workers do?


Well then ask!!! Whether you are a brand new hire green apprentice first day on the job or a jman with 40 years experience you have the same right to shut it down and work safely. If you feel like they will let you go because you ask to shut it down to work safely, then look for another place to work. If working safely takes a backseat to get'n'r'dun it's not a place worth working no matter what they pay. Damn straight those lights are going off. They are lights. Nobody is going to die without them. They can schedule a more convenient time if they like, but I am not going to work live in a panel just so the other trades can have lights. Crap like "lights for the whole floor, the cash registers will go down, the pizza place will be pissed they have had 3 outages this month" are not legitimate reasons to work live. Everyone I work with would rather get home safe to the family.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Employer is supposed to provide electrical PPE. The only reason I suggested buying your own coveralls is that sooner or later you might need them. In Alberta, supplying your own Nomex is hit and miss, depending on who you work for.

PPE suppliers sell a complete suit in a duffel bag in the various risk categories.

I'm not sure if I understand your post correctly but, if someone fired up a circuit after a short circuit without repairs and tests, he's a goof.


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## Felandro (Mar 16, 2014)

99cents said:


> Employer is supposed to provide electrical PPE. The only reason I suggested buying your own coveralls is that sooner or later you might need them. In Alberta, supplying your own Nomex is hit and miss, depending on who you work for.
> 
> PPE suppliers sell a complete suit in a duffel bag in the various risk categories.
> 
> I'm not sure if I understand your post correctly but, if someone fired up a circuit after a short circuit without repairs and tests, he's a goof.


Not firing up a circuit, firing up the building. The roofing screws drilling into the feeder for the 400 Amp rooftop unit is what tripped the breaker for the entire building. They disconnected the rooftop unit and then fired the building up with all the disconnects and panels still on except for the rooftop unit. I will check and see regarding the PPE though and see when they are getting the suit in.


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## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

Should have meggered the cable before starting up such a large piece of equipment!


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## Semi-Ret Electrician (Nov 10, 2011)

An new apprentice asking for PPE at a facility that has never had any, takes a lot of guts. And will cause a lot of snickers and raised eyebrows.

It takes many years experience to persuade an electrician to take the chance to work live, without PPE. Doing so, working for a first class company will get yourself fired on the spot.

It's an easy decision, after taking a serious arc flash, laying in a hospital bed.


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## Felandro (Mar 16, 2014)

Semi-Ret Electrician said:


> An new apprentice asking for PPE at a facility that has never had any, takes a lot of guts. And will cause a lot of snickers and raised eyebrows.
> 
> It takes many years experience to persuade an electrician to take the chance to work live, without PPE. Doing so, working for a first class company will get yourself fired on the spot.
> 
> It's an easy decision, after taking a serious arc flash, laying in a hospital bed.


I have no problem with snickers or raised eyebrows I have shown my co-workers my painted nails from my daughter. There is only one guy in there uncomfortable with his man-hood that has really said anything. My main concern is that if I ask for PPE (It is on the way though probably won't be used for 120/208v panels) is that they will say oh it's okay you can go sweep or run whips and have so and so work on it. I know I could get them if they fired me for it I just want experience with panel work, I've installed many different devices but this job is my first time inside a panel and I want as much experience as I can get.

Vintage Sounds: I haven't done my first year schooling in 5 years, I understand the concept of a megger but do not own one nor do I fully know how to use or interpret the readings. If you could briefly explain and point me in the direction of a decent brand that would be great. I am hoping they aren't too expensive.


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## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

Felandro said:


> Vintage Sounds: I haven't done my first year schooling in 5 years, I understand the concept of a megger but do not own one nor do I fully know how to use or interpret the readings. If you could briefly explain and point me in the direction of a decent brand that would be great. I am hoping they aren't too expensive.


A megger is an expensive tool not meant to be used by beginners. It's something a company generally owns/provides/pays to have calibrated. In this case it would have detected damaged insulation from the roofing screws before your journeyman closed the switch into a shorted wire run. He's just lucky the disconnect or breaker he was standing in front of didn't blow up and take him with it. 600v 400A, that is a huge unit(chiller?). The fact that that same clown(or maybe a different clown) then threw the main breaker without even knowing why it tripped is pretty damn dumb.

Am I understanding this correctly?

1) a JM turned on power to a large machine with a damaged cable run, so it shorted, blew up and then tripped the main breaker in the building.

2) Another JM didn't bother finding out what caused the trip, instead decided to just "pump" (what do you mean by this? tried several times?) the main hoping the fault had magically cleared itself.

3) These guys decided to re-energise the damaged cable to the machine so they could run a startup test, without actually doing anything about the screws?

WTF kind of morons do you work for?


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Felandro, you need to find a new job. You're working with idiots and you will never learn anything useful working with idiots.


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## Felandro (Mar 16, 2014)

Vintage Sounds said:


> A megger is an expensive tool not meant to be used by beginners. It's something a company generally owns/provides/pays to have calibrated. In this case it would have detected damaged insulation from the roofing screws before your journeyman closed the switch into a shorted wire run. He's just lucky the disconnect or breaker he was standing in front of didn't blow up and take him with it. 600v 400A, that is a huge unit(chiller?). The fact that that same clown(or maybe a different clown) then threw the main breaker without even knowing why it tripped is pretty damn dumb.
> 
> Am I understanding this correctly?
> 
> ...


The first two are correct he had an idea it was the unit since it happened at the same time. It is an air handling unit I was told today, I was not there but the JM that fired up the building said the main breakers for building need to be pumped to engage the spring that closes the two bus bars together. They didn't re-energise it yet thankfully though we have had problems with the roofing screws all over the building drilling into our conduit, I had to fix two of my runs myself.

99 Cents: I am looking elsewhere seeing what's out there this project will take me through until my school though which is what I am looking for. My problem is I do not want to do residential at all, this company is all commercial/institutional we are doing a BCIT and they built Science World, do a lot of Hospitals so maybe I just got a bad crew? The whole team was just hired for this job except for like 2, even the foreman.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Felandro said:


> The first two are correct he had an idea it was the unit since it happened at the same time. It is an air handling unit I was told today, I was not there but the JM that fired up the building said the main breakers for building need to be pumped to engage the spring that closes the two bus bars together. They didn't re-energise it yet thankfully though we have had problems with the roofing screws all over the building drilling into our conduit, I had to fix two of my runs myself.


Have them send body bags rather than PPE.

I can't believe the garbage these boneheads are telling you.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Sounds like they were just charging the breaker to get it closed, that's normal. The part that strikes me is about the j-man being confused/scared/surprised by what he was doing. That's usually a really good indicator to stop doing it.

In the states reclosing into a fault is a OSHA and NFPA 70E violation, in addition it's just really stupid. I'd wager y'all have some similar rules.


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## BababooeyHTJ (May 31, 2013)

99cents said:


> Felandro, you need to find a new job. You're working with idiots and you will never learn anything useful working with idiots.


Don't be so arrogant. While they may be idiots you can learn something from anyone. Even your apprentice. There is a lot to know in this trade and nobody knows everything. Although some people think that they do.


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## Chrismcd (Apr 9, 2014)

I've had good luck with CIP, There expensive but by far the best insulated tools i've used. Ideal has really nice pliers, Wiha for screw drivers are also good but have nothing on CIP. I understand the situation you're in as its the same where I work there is no PPE common sense really used at all just make sure you take your time and are careful. You don't want to be the one to die to make the company finally decide to pay for proper equipment.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

BababooeyHTJ said:


> Don't be so arrogant. While they may be idiots you can learn something from anyone. Even your apprentice. There is a lot to know in this trade and nobody knows everything. Although some people think that they do.


Arrogant? I won't work with people who don't take this trade or the welfare of their coworkers seriously so why should I encourage someone else to?


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

Why would anyone install conduit and cable within 4" of the roof deck? How did the j-men not know about the gigantic screws roofers use?


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## BababooeyHTJ (May 31, 2013)

Going_Commando said:


> Why would anyone install conduit and cable within 4" of the roof deck? How did the j-men not know about the gigantic screws roofers use?


They know now lol


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Felandro said:


> The first two are correct he had an idea it was the unit since it happened at the same time. It is an air handling unit I was told today, I was not there but the JM that fired up the building said the main breakers for building need to be pumped to engage the spring that closes the two bus bars together. They didn't re-energise it yet thankfully though we have had problems with the roofing screws all over the building drilling into our conduit, I had to fix two of my runs myself.
> 
> 99 Cents: I am looking elsewhere seeing what's out there this project will take me through until my school though which is what I am looking for. My problem is I do not want to do residential at all, this company is all commercial/institutional we are doing a BCIT and they built Science World, do a lot of Hospitals so maybe I just got a bad crew? The whole team was just hired for this job except for like 2, even the foreman.


I believe an apprentice should attempt to get a good blend of experience during his apprenticeship. It's a big trade and you can't do it all, obviously. Once you're done with the big shop experience, you might try a small shop. I worked for a small shop for about six months when I apprenticed, just the owner and me. He was a mean old bastard but he taught me a lot and he had extremely high standards of work.


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## freeagnt54 (Aug 6, 2008)

I like this set

http://www.amazon.com/Wera-Insulated-Interchangeable-BladePouch-Piece/dp/B00155376I/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1401924983&sr=8-8&keywords=wera+insulated

Also be sure to search pictures and stories of people in burn units.


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## SteveO. (Oct 17, 2011)

I use Wiha's and don't find them to be any more expensive that buying Klein at Home Depot. Check their site and buy the set of drivers and you'll see they work out to about $8-9 a driver. I use mine all the time and really like them. 

I always try to de-energize anything I work on but it's often not realistic when troubleshooting. I have no issue with working live with my PPE and having a good understanding of what I'm working on. I've taken my arc flash training, understand the hazards and while I avoid it when I can, I understand that sometimes working live happens and I prefer to have insulated drivers for it.


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