# Back stab receptacles



## Svtlightning207 (Apr 2, 2012)

Home owner had a power surge at last receptacle on gfci circuit, homeowner said electric leaf blower sounded as if it was "running out of gas" lol, The gfci receptacle was in the garage, which then fed 2 outdoor receptacles, then 2 bathrooms. I replaced all outlets but 1, all were back stabbed. I rewired all of them the right way. Everything in the panel box was tight, voltage measured correctly. Everything worked when I left, I'm just curious, is it common for these outlets that are back stabbed to have open conductors? Are the newer devices like this as well (loose connections) when you back stab?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

I have made quite a bit of money from back-stabbing devices.


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## Svtlightning207 (Apr 2, 2012)

Are the new ones as unreliable? And shouldn't these old homes that are wired like this be rewired correctly, or at least put arc faults in place?


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

Svtlightning207 said:


> I rewired all of them the right way.


Back-stabbed is a complaint way..right or wrong is a matter of opinion.



Svtlightning207 said:


> Are the new ones as unreliable? And shouldn't these old homes that are wired like this be rewired correctly, or at least put arc faults in place?


Who is going to pay for their home/business/office building/airport/etc.. to be rewired every 3 years to meet the latest edition of the NEC?


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## mbednarik (Oct 10, 2011)

They are the worst idea i have ever seen. They are seldom as reliable as a side wired device.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Celtic said:


> Who is going to pay for their home/business/office building/airport/etc.. to be rewired every 3 years to meet the latest edition of the NEC?


I don't know, but I sure as hell wish someone would....:laughing:


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## MIKEFLASH (Apr 14, 2012)

Back stab receps quite often have problems overtime , just a faster way of doing things , not much cheaper though


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## Svtlightning207 (Apr 2, 2012)

CEltic, what i'm getting at is that 90% of the time, the back stab receptacle seems to be the source of the circuit's problem. I'm just curious as to how safe this method is, and whether or not they have updated new devices to fix the issue. As for replacing the receptacle and wiring it "correctly" (correctly meaning its less likely to fail, and i'm not too lazy to take the extra 10 seconds and bend the wire) I feel as though it would be preventative maintenance.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Svtlightning207 said:


> Home owner had a power surge at last receptacle on gfci circuit, homeowner said electric leaf blower sounded as if it was "running out of gas" lol, The gfci receptacle was in the garage, which then fed 2 outdoor receptacles, then 2 bathrooms. I replaced all outlets but 1, all were back stabbed. I rewired all of them the right way. Everything in the panel box was tight, voltage measured correctly. Everything worked when I left, I'm just curious, is it common for these outlets that are back stabbed to have open conductors? Are the newer devices like this as well (loose connections) when you back stab?



So did the guy who backstabbed, or else you wouldn't see the holes to put in stabs in the back of the devices if it was the "wrong way".. After saying all that , I don't backstab hardly ever unless there is some compelling reason that requires I do it. I also have fixed an uncountable amount of outlets that were wired around the terminals that melted or worse. So if you really want to know the "right" way to wire a receptacle, maybe we should say "don't wire any of them at all, they may fail one day...".


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## charlie Bob (Jul 26, 2009)

. I rewired all of them the right way.quote]

Oh Boy . . . you are just trying to get some of this folks going aren't you?:laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

I used to love stabbing 12 wire kitchens pre 95'. We used to get the receptacles with no side screws and 8 backports. Still keeping Ecs busy with service calls to this date.


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## fanelle (Nov 27, 2011)

Svtlightning207 said:


> Home owner had a power surge at last receptacle on gfci circuit, homeowner said electric leaf blower sounded as if it was "running out of gas" lol, The gfci receptacle was in the garage, which then fed 2 outdoor receptacles, then 2 bathrooms. I replaced all outlets but 1, all were back stabbed. I rewired all of them the right way. Everything in the panel box was tight, voltage measured correctly. Everything worked when I left, I'm just curious, is it common for these outlets that are back stabbed to have open conductors? Are the newer devices like this as well (loose connections) when you back stab?


I typically don`t backstab receps. but when rewiring flourescent lights I do typically use Ideal in-sure push in connectors. I never had a problem with them. As far as receps. go I do like levington prefered grade.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

Svtlightning207 said:


> CEltic, what i'm getting at is that 90% of the time, the back stab receptacle seems to be the source of the circuit's problem.


90% of what you have seen is back stabbed related...others will say they see an equal percentage of failure among side wired devices.

When you side wire, how sure are you that you have achieved the proper torque rating ? 
Do you use a torque screw driver?













..or just your trusty 10-in-1?













Svtlightning207 said:


> I'm just curious as to how safe this method is, and whether or not they have updated new devices to fix the issue.


The back stabbing method is safe :thumbsup:
If it wasn't ~ why would all those devices have those built-in profit centers :thumbup:

80% - 90% of device failure can be directly attributed to installation error on the installers part.
The other 10% - 20% is attributed to Mother Nature and Home Owners.



Svtlightning207 said:


> As for replacing the receptacle and wiring it "correctly" (correctly meaning its less likely to fail, and i'm not too lazy to take the extra 10 seconds and bend the wire) I feel as though it would be preventative maintenance.


If by correctly, you mean using a torque screw driver, that has been properly calibrated...kudos to you!
In the meantime, I'll back stab the device as it is also a compliant installation.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

*The Future is here!*

The future is here!






*P&S PLUGTAIL™ Receptacles*​ 






​ 

:thumbup:

All you #12 NM jockeys should love that :laughing:


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## Theriot (Aug 27, 2011)

That would be great when used with wingos


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## electrictim510 (Sep 9, 2008)

Had 2 calls today that were backstab failures. I think it is more of a poor install than anything, but I do not trust the installation of any kind of stab connection. I see more than 90% of the power loss calls attribute to backstabbed plugs. I think the main reason is because most contractors use this type so this is what will fail more. If everyone use the screw type then we would see more of those. I think number of failures would drop but I doubt by a huge number since laziness and careless goes with any installation. I myself trust pigtails and only trust one set to plugs and use the screws.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

.....


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## Theriot (Aug 27, 2011)

I would never back wire. But I would use those pigtail rec with Wingos. Wait isn't that the same thing?


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## thoenew (Jan 17, 2012)

Celtic said:


> The future is here!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


TR? not interested.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

thoenew said:


> TR? not interested.


Get interested....

* PlugTail Specification Grade Tamper-Resistant Receptacles, SF1513R2  *​ 

Tamper-Resistant ReceptaclesPlugTail™ Devices Spec Grade 15 & 20A, 125V​ 

..all you had to do was click the link over the picture.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

electrictim510 said:


> Had 2 calls today that were backstab failures. I think it is more of a poor install than anything, but I do not trust the installation of any kind of stab connection. I see more than 90% of the power loss calls attribute to backstabbed plugs. I think the main reason is because most contractors use this type so this is what will fail more. If everyone use the screw type then we would see more of those. I think number of failures would drop but I doubt by a huge number since laziness and careless goes with any installation. I myself trust pigtails and only trust one set to plugs and use the screws.



So...are you one of the non-lazy types that carry a properly calibrated torque screw driver around with you.....or not?


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## Theriot (Aug 27, 2011)

I can see a bored HO Thinking this is great because she could change the colors of the rec just by unplugging them and putting red and green one on for Christmas. How about ghost and pumpkins for Halloween. Pokemon rec gotta catch them all. Kids could trade them like card. Hell I think I'm on to something damn I need to hurry and patented it.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

Theriot said:


> I can see a bored HO Thinking this is great because she could change the colors of the rec just by unplugging them and putting red and green one on for Christmas. How about ghost and pumpkins for Halloween. Pokemon rec gotta catch them all.



That would be hysterical!
:thumbup:


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

Theriot said:


> That would be great when used with wingos


wtf is a wingo:whistling2:


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## electrictim510 (Sep 9, 2008)

Celtic said:


> So...are you one of the non-lazy types that carry a properly calibrated torque screw driver around with you.....or not?


They make calibrated screwdrivers? :blink: I would love to buy one if they do. I have learned that there is a certain amount of torque I can give a receptacle before it is too much and yet far enough not loosen on its own. I trust my judgement far better than stabbing connections.


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## electrictim510 (Sep 9, 2008)

TOOL_5150 said:


> wtf is a wingo:whistling2:


probably means wago. And they do make those pigtails with pre installed failgos on them. :no:


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

TOOL_5150 said:


> wtf is a wingo:whistling2:


It's like a wago....




just different....



it's got wings....


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

360max said:


> .....


Really....?:blink::blink::laughing::laughing:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Theriot said:


> I would never back wire. But I would use those pigtail rec with Wingos. Wait isn't that the same thing?



Wingos. ??:laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## electrictim510 (Sep 9, 2008)

Here is Wingo


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## wesleydnunder (Mar 19, 2012)

480sparky said:


> I have made quite a bit of money from back-stabbing devices.


I made quite a bit of money troubleshooting problems caused by backstabbing devices. I was taught that that was the lazy way to terminate devices and that the piss-poor connection always caused problems.

Mark


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

wesleydnunder said:


> I made quite a bit of money troubleshooting problems caused by backstabbing devices. I was taught that that was the lazy way to terminate devices and that the piss-poor connection always caused problems.
> 
> Mark


Is there an echo in here? :laughing:


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

electrictim510 said:


> They make calibrated screwdrivers? :blink: I would love to buy one if they do.


They make everything now-awadays...I posted a gigantic picture of it Post #*13*




electrictim510 said:


> I have learned that there is a certain amount of torque I can give a receptacle before it is too much and yet far enough not loosen on its own. I trust my judgement far better than stabbing connections.


So....what you are saying is...your right arm is to be trusted more than an entire team of MIT egg-heads that designed the spring clip on the back-stab device?

Is that before or after lunch?
Is the 1st one as tight as the 50th one in the same day?
How about when the HO/GC/helper is asking you a million stoopid questions?

You go on feeling all superior if you like...:no:


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## Theriot (Aug 27, 2011)

That's it wago's don't they use the same idea to compress the wire as a backwire rec.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

wesleydnunder said:


> I made quite a bit of money troubleshooting problems caused by backstabbing devices. I was taught that that was the lazy way to terminate devices and that the piss-poor connection always caused problems.
> 
> Mark


Do you use a properly calibrated torque screwdriver when installing devices?


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## Theriot (Aug 27, 2011)

electrictim510 said:


> Here is Wingo


That would work too


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

Theriot said:


> That's it wago's don't they use the same idea to compress the wire as a backwire rec.



Yes ...same principal.


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## wesleydnunder (Mar 19, 2012)

Celtic said:


> Do you use a properly calibrated torque screwdriver when installing devices?


Course not. I use my trusty 10 in 1 and my d_ckskinners. Who's got a hundred bucks to spend on a screwdriver? Besides, that little jewel wasn't even available back when I was in the field. At least, I never saw one before today.

Mark


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Is there an echo in here? :laughing:


What!What! What! What! What! What! What!  :laughing::laughing:


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

Earlier this week, I finished a house, and back stabbed everything that I legally could. Did it, and im glad.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

TOOL_5150 said:


> Earlier this week, I finished a house, and back stabbed everything that I legally could. Did it, and im glad.


You forgot to follow your posting up with :brows:


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

wesleydnunder said:


> I made quite a bit of money troubleshooting problems caused by backstabbing devices. I was taught that that was the lazy way to terminate devices and that the piss-poor connection always caused problems.
> 
> Mark





wesleydnunder said:


> Course not. I use my trusty 10 in 1 and my d_ckskinners. Who's got a hundred bucks to spend on a screwdriver? Besides, that little jewel wasn't even available back when I was in the field. At least, I never saw one before today.
> 
> Mark


Does that make you lazy or cheap?

The fact that you never saw one until today, does not mean Thomas Edison didn't have one...his might not have been battery powered though.


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## wesleydnunder (Mar 19, 2012)

Celtic said:


> Does that make you lazy or cheap?
> 
> The fact that you never saw one until today, does not mean Thomas Edison didn't have one...his might not have been battery powered though.


cheap

...and Edison was a dabbler... Tesla was the shizznizzle!

Mark


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

Celtic said:


> Do you use a properly calibrated torque screwdriver when installing devices?


You selling these "properly calibrated torque screwdrivers" or just own stock in the company?:laughing:


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## Theriot (Aug 27, 2011)

Not sure what this adds to any of this just found it and I can figure out why you would hide a toothbrush


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## electrictim510 (Sep 9, 2008)

Celtic said:


> They make everything now-awadays...I posted a gigantic picture of it Post #*13*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, I do trust my arm better. I think the stab connection is only still made because of speed, not because it is a better connection. I am losing time and money because of it but I trust my connections more this way and since I am not the type that can forget about my work after I am done I sleep better knowing I did it the way I trsut rather than the way that is faster.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

Little-Lectric said:


> You selling these "properly calibrated torque screwdrivers" or just own stock in the company?:laughing:


Yes.
I own stock in Amazon....buy from them :thumbsup:
http://www.amazon.com/Neiko-Pro-Grade-4-Inch-Torque-Screwdriver/dp/B000RZ1D86


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

electrictim510 said:


> Yes, I do trust my arm better. I think the stab connection is only still made because of speed, not because it is a better connection. I am losing time and money because of it but I trust my connections more this way and since I am not the type that can forget about my work after I am done I sleep better knowing I did it the way I trsut rather than the way that is faster.


I'm sure the MIT egg-heads sleep just as well.

I'm curious though.....do you install bolt-on panels in resi. too?
Homeline and the lot are essentially stabbed.


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## electrictim510 (Sep 9, 2008)

anyone use one? I want one now! Any ups and dowsn to certain brand/models?


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## LARMGUY (Aug 22, 2010)

mbednarik said:


> They are the worst idea i have ever seen. They are seldom as reliable as a side wired device.


Should they be banned?


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## electrictim510 (Sep 9, 2008)

Celtic said:


> I'm sure the MIT egg-heads sleep just as well.
> 
> I'm curious though.....do you install bolt-on panels in resi. too?
> Homeline and the lot are essentially stabbed.


Not quite, got me thinking though :laughing:. Stab connections have far less surface of wire to hold onto. 

I prefer CH and QO type panels but I don't have problems with BR types in general as long as they're installed with care.


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## electrictim510 (Sep 9, 2008)

LARMGUY said:


> Should they be banned?


I think theyre the main reason why we are heading down the path of pigtailing being mandatory. This takes much more stress off of those connections that are stabbed in general.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

Peter D said:


> You forgot to follow your posting up with :brows:


i wasnt joking.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

electrictim510 said:


> I think theyre the main reason why we are heading down the path of pigtailing being mandatory. This takes much more stress off of those connections that are stabbed in general.


What does pigtailing got to do with backstabbing? They are two separate issues. You can still pigtail AND backstab.


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## RonS1985 (May 12, 2012)

Hi guys! I'm new to the forum and have 10 years experience. 50/50 comm/res. I have a person opinion about backstabbing switches and receps. It's been my experience that most times, especially during new construction, the number one reason a breaker trips after installing devices for the first time is due to the ground wire touching a neutral or hot wire that was backstabbed. Inevitably when someone backstabs a device they almost always strip the wire too much. When the device is pushed into the box the wires bend exposing even more bare wire. If care isn't used to ensure that the ground wire is pushed way back and away from the device it will short out. There is much less chance of that happening when you pigtail and put wires around the screws because they are on the side of the device. Then there is the other issue of trying to get the backstabbed wires out of devices. It's much easier to unscrew a wire than it is to try to push something into that hole to release a backstabbed wire. I think backstabbing is simply a time-saving practice and most things that save time are usually not the best. It's just my opinion.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

RonS1985 said:


> ......... Inevitably when someone backstabs a device they almost always strip the wire too much. .........


Which is not the backstab's problem. 



RonS1985 said:


> .........If care isn't used to ensure that the ground wire is pushed way back and away from the device it will short out .........


Besides, those great big humongous screws on the side are a bigger target for the bare ground than a bit of exposed copper.


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## electrictim510 (Sep 9, 2008)

480sparky said:


> What does pigtailing got to do with backstabbing? They are two separate issues. You can still pigtail AND backstab.


With all the backstab failures in and out of devices pigtailing wil eliminate the amount of failures if electricians still decide to backstab.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

electrictim510 said:


> With all the backstab failures in and out of devices pigtailing wil eliminate the amount of failures if electricians still decide to backstab.



How will pigtailing help make a backstab a better connection? :001_huh:


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## electrictim510 (Sep 9, 2008)

480sparky said:


> I have made quite a bit of money from back-stabbing devices.


I can safely say I have probably made 10 times more in correcting backstab failures. Thanks. 

And again, I will stress; I think if everyone used screws there would almost be the same failures. I would probably say in my opinion backstabs are maybe 20% or so more likely to fail. There are just so many around here that fail because that is what everyone does.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

electrictim510 said:


> I can safely say I have probably made 10 times more in correcting backstab failures. Thanks.
> 
> And again, I will stress; I think if everyone used screws there would almost be the same failures. I would probably say in my opinion backstabs are maybe 20% or so more likely to fail. There are just so many around here that fail because that is what everyone does.



I meant to say the same thing you do..... I've made a ton of money from those who backstab.

I've lost count of the number of backstab calls I've had, but can count on one hand the number of screw terminal failures I've seen.


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## electrictim510 (Sep 9, 2008)

480sparky said:


> How will pigtailing help make a backstab a better connection? :001_huh:


Won't make it better, but it will make less backstab connection per circuit which in a way makes it better (less being better).


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## RonS1985 (May 12, 2012)

In my experience I've had to fix way more backstabbing issues than screw. A screw makes a more solid connection than backstabbing hands down. Too many times I've seen where a backstabbed wire wasn't pushed in far enough and came out. As long as the screw is tight that can never happen putting it under a screw. According to a major company in Syracuse, NY, the main purpose of backstabbing is an acceptable way to add additional wires to a device but they recommended using the screws first and the rear connections as "overflow." But, like I said, it's easier (to me) to remove a device using screws than to get the wires out of the back side. I guess it's a personal preference. I really have never liked it.


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## mbednarik (Oct 10, 2011)

LARMGUY said:


> Should they be banned?


they are banned in my company, along with breakable wall plates.


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## angryceltic (Feb 21, 2012)

Celtic said:


> Yes.
> I own stock in Amazon....buy from them :thumbsup:
> http://www.amazon.com/Neiko-Pro-Grade-4-Inch-Torque-Screwdriver/dp/B000RZ1D86


I heard a rumor they are looking to add that to the required apprentice tool list at work. In lieu of the greener hole punch kit


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## Theriot (Aug 27, 2011)

angryceltic said:


> I heard a rumor they are looking to add that to the required apprentice tool list at work. In lieu of the greener hole punch kit


How much greener can you get than greenlee


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## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

I don't back stab, I'll wrap around unless it's got a GFCI type screw-plate lug type thing. I find those are great.


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## angryceltic (Feb 21, 2012)

Theriot said:


> How much greener can you get than greenlee


Damn auto correct. Yeah Greenlee


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

It probably carries about as much logic as why I will only use Klein pliers, but I'll stick to wrapping around the screw. I fix plenty of the back stabbed stuff, but I second or third the worst burned up receptacles I find are the wrapped around the screw type. What ever floats your boat.


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## MaxFuse (Oct 23, 2011)

480sparky said:


> How will pigtailing help make a backstab a better connection? :001_huh:


By reducing the dependency of the connection to carry loads that are connected to downstream receptacles.
I thought all electricians quit using stabs and feed thru connections on devices along time ago.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

MaxFuse said:


> By reducing the dependency of the connection to carry loads that are connected to downstream recceptacles.
> I thought all electricians quit using stabs and feed thru connections on devices along time ago.



Yeah, the eliminate the dependency of the connection.............. from the device to a splice. Net gain: zip.


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## electrictim510 (Sep 9, 2008)

480sparky said:


> Yeah, the eliminate the dependency of the connection.............. from the device to a splice. Net gain: zip.


Device connection < splice connection


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

electrictim510 said:


> Device connection < splice connection


And the proof is...........?


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## electrictim510 (Sep 9, 2008)

480sparky said:


> And the proof is...........?


 
none needed, it's obvious. As long as you know how to make a good splice it will hold better than any stab connection and will last 10times longer.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

electrictim510 said:


> none needed, it's obvious. As long as you know how to make a good splice it will hold better than any stab connection and will last 10times longer.



That's no proof at all.


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## electrictim510 (Sep 9, 2008)

480sparky said:


> That's no proof at all.


It's a tighter connection and since the proof cannot be given to either side I will give credit to the one that holds better.

Ever try to pull connection off that has been wirenutted? I almost never cut or use the release on the backstabs because pulling them out works so easily. If it comes undone that easily I cannot trust it. That is proof enough for me.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

electrictim510 said:


> It's a tighter connection and since the proof cannot be given to either side I will give credit to the one that holds better.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Backstabbing's good because you're allowed to do it. Just like using a wire nut to splice conductors together. Morons.


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## electrictim510 (Sep 9, 2008)

How is that a lie?


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## electrictim510 (Sep 9, 2008)

I sure hope people keep backstabbing myself. It makes me lots of money correcting it. I will just never do it since we warranty our work for more than a year.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

electrictim510 said:


> ...*since the proof cannot be given to either side*
> *I will give credit to the one that holds better.*





Celtic said:


>





electrictim510 said:


> How is that a lie?


Its not true simply because you decided it was.


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## zigger215 (May 17, 2012)

Backstabbing sure seems convenient but the few times I've done it, ive received a phone call shortly after the install ask me to come fix the recep...they seem to always cost me money and time but that is just my own experience..and I've had the **** shocked out of me before because of those things .


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