# Construction Trade !!



## BryanMD (Dec 31, 2007)

As John McClain said in Diehard... "Welcome to the party, Pal

You aren't likely to find many here that disagree with your observation or your opinion.


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## Stan Mason (Oct 30, 2008)

BryanMD said:


> As John McClain said in Diehard... "Welcome to the party, Pal
> 
> You aren't likely to find many here that disagree with your observation or your opinion.


your right but something needs to be done about it the reason why i posted that is I am having a hell of a time with Immigration trying to get my daughter here from canada so she can start High School on Jan 5 and they are here with no problems


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## Trimix-leccy (Dec 4, 2007)

UK take on things...

years ago I heard some chap on the radio talking about 'immigration laws', the more I listened the more radical it got. Candidates had to have so much money in the bank, guaranteed work, no rights, no benefits, etc etc etc. THEN he dropped the bombshell that these ARE ACTUALLY the immigration laws for Mexico...and he wanted [quite correctly] to know why they could not apply the laws to the US. I have tried everywhere to find a recording of this speach but to no avail . But I found this link with google...makes for some very interesting reading; especially from a UK point of view where we will let anybody in. Give them a big house, free health care etc etc etc

One rule for us and no rules for them



http://bridgetdgms.wordpress.com/2008/03/31/immigration-laws-of-mexico/


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## dawgs (Dec 1, 2007)

Stan Mason said:


> your right but something needs to be done about it the reason why i posted that is I am having a hell of a time with Immigration trying to get my daughter here from canada so she can start High School on Jan 5 and they are here with no problems


Stan you are going about it all wrong. You got to sneek her across the border, and then dont worry about school, just put her to work at sub minimum wage. But she will still make money because she wont have to pay taxes.


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

to get into this country legally and have the right to work is a joke compared to the drywall guys i work with - makes me sick


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## BryanMD (Dec 31, 2007)

Trimix-leccy said:


> UK take on things...
> 
> years ago I heard some chap on the radio talking about 'immigration laws', the more I listened the more radical it got. Candidates had to have so much money in the bank, guaranteed work, no rights, no benefits, etc etc etc. THEN he dropped the bombshell that these ARE ACTUALLY the immigration laws for Mexico...


To grasp American immigration policy, to the extent that it can be grasped, one need only remember that the United States forbids smoking while subsidizing tobacco growers. 

We say to impoverished Mexicans, “See this river? Don’t cross it. If you do, we’ll give you good jobs, a drivers license, citizenship for your kids born here and eventually for you, school for said kids, public assistance, governmental documents in Spanish for your convenience, and a much better future. There is no penalty for getting caught. Now, _don’t cross this river_, hear?”

How smart is that? We’re baiting them. It’s like putting out a salt lick and then complaining when deer come. As parents, the immigrants would be irresponsible not to cross.

The problem of immigration, note, is entirely self-inflicted. The US chose to let them in. It didn’t have to. They came to work. If Americans hadn’t hired them, they would have gone back. 

We have immigration because we want immigration. 

Liberals favor immigration because it makes them feel warm and fuzzy and international and all, and from a genuine streak of decency. 

Conservative Republican businessman favor immigration, frequently sotto voce, because they want cheap labor that actually shows up and works.


Fred Reed 
here is the rest (and more): http://www.fredoneverything.net/TacImmigration.shtml


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## Stan Mason (Oct 30, 2008)

that's a pretty good link


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## chrisb271 (Jul 6, 2007)

BryanMD said:


> The problem of immigration, note, is entirely self-inflicted. The US chose to let them in. It didn’t have to. They came to work. If Americans hadn’t hired them, they would have gone back.


 
The same could be said for the UK as we now have various different languages flooding to *SOFT TOUCH BRITAIN* Its an easy meal ticket for most all they need do is get here and bingo ! welcome to the easy life and now they use a different scam that is very effective.
The girls get pregnant over here,have their babies over here , stay here for a minimum of three months then clear off back to their country *BUT *with a meal ticket for 16 years as the children are BRITISH CITIZENS :notworthy:
So joe smuck here and the rest of the working people of England have to pick up the tab , Excellent !!!

Maybe i am looking at this from the wrong perspective ?

Maybe i should just send my earnings straight abroad 

Sorry guys this really does wind me up !!!

Rant over 

Chris


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## Stan Mason (Oct 30, 2008)

Yea it's pretty bad when we have to learn spanish just to go to work, When i was in high school i tought when am I ever going to use it boy was i wrong!


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## BryanMD (Dec 31, 2007)

chrisb271 said:


> ...and now they use a different scam that is very effective.
> The girls get pregnant over here,have their babies over here , stay here for a minimum of three months then clear off back to their country *BUT *with a meal ticket for 16 years as the children are BRITISH CITIZENS


We have that rule right in our Constitution. The 14th Amendment.

"All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and
subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States
and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any
law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty,
or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within
its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

Meant with the best of intentions (related to legal status of ex slaves after our Civil War) but should have been allowed to expire after 50 years or so.

I wouldn't mind revisiting this and changing it retroactively to about 1970. (And I'm considered a liberal on most issues)


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## Stan Mason (Oct 30, 2008)

BryanMD said:


> We have that rule right in our Constitution. The 14th Amendment.
> 
> "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and
> subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States
> ...


I hear you on that :notworthy:


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## chrisb271 (Jul 6, 2007)

I am sure we have something written in English policy somewhere but wouldn't want to find it as it would only rattle my cage even more 

If i go to another country i abide by their rules not try and make my own up BUT i must admit that i was rather disapointed when the wife and i visited India a few years ago , we had been there three days and had not been offered a house by the government there !!
Would have been different the other way round no doubt :jester:

Chris


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## Stan Mason (Oct 30, 2008)

chrisb271 said:


> I am sure we have something written in English policy somewhere but wouldn't want to find it as it would only rattle my cage even more
> 
> If i go to another country i abide by their rules not try and make my own up BUT i must admit that i was rather disapointed when the wife and i visited India a few years ago , we had been there three days and had not been offered a house by the government there !!
> Would have been different the other way round no doubt :jester:
> ...


I am moving to your country JK:icon_wink:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Have you ever tried to hire apprentices at least in my area, if you approach the high school guidance counselors abut talking to high schoolers you might as well be a pedophile.

They are filling a need. Not jobs no Non-Americans, want to bet they are flocking south in record numbers at this time in our economic calendar?


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## Stan Mason (Oct 30, 2008)

brian john said:


> Have you ever tried to hire apprentices at least in my area, if you approach the high school guidance counselors abut talking to high schoolers you might as well be a pedophile.
> 
> They are filling a need. Not jobs no Non-Americans, want to bet they are flocking south in record numbers at this time in our economic calendar?


I hear you :thumbsup:


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

To me it's a huge "Catch 22" situation, they are over running our borders and it's illegal to shoot them.


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## Stan Mason (Oct 30, 2008)

MechanicalDVR said:


> To me it's a huge "Catch 22" situation, they are over running our borders and it's illegal to shoot them.


That should be the new hunting season, send them to Irac


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## waco (Dec 10, 2007)

why do you assume they are illegal and that they don't pay taxes? I have a a relative who does EFIS and uses Mexican nationals who are imported for their work ethic and skills. They pay into social security and they pay taxes and they work. Man, do they work!


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## Stan Mason (Oct 30, 2008)

waco said:


> why do you assume they are illegal and that they don't pay taxes? I have a a relative who does EFIS and uses Mexican nationals who are imported for their work ethic and skills. They pay into social security and they pay taxes and they work. Man, do they work!


those are one in a million I live in Richmond and down the street and once in a while you will see the white van dark tint and cops chasing them and some are tye wrap sitting on the ground, are those legal immigrants are they paying taxes and social security?


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## 5volts (Jan 11, 2008)

The illegals who are here, are getting paid by legal Americans. The "Mexicans" as you say, are doing the jobs that blacks and white people will not do. How often do you see a "Mexican begging for money"? At least they are trying to work and make a better living for themself. 

I am against illegal immigration, however I'd rather see a "Mexican working", then begging for money on the side of a freeway. Stan Mason if you come down to LA area you will find plenty of Mexicans who pay taxes such as myself making over six figures a year.

This thread really sucks! This forum should be for General Electrical Discussions. You should save your ideas and electrical expertise for this forum. Thats what people like myself want to hear. Wanna vent about your little personal problem. Heres the perfect forum for you.

http://www.city-data.com/forum/politics-other-controversies/330069-racism-discrimination.html


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## JRent (Jul 1, 2008)

p_logix said:


> The illegals who are here, are getting paid by legal Americans. The "Mexicans" as you say, are doing the jobs that blacks and white people will not do. How often do you see a "Mexican begging for money"? At least they are trying to work and make a better living for themself.
> 
> I am against illegal immigration, however I'd rather see a "Mexican working", then begging for money on the side of a freeway. Stan Mason if you come down to LA area you will find plenty of Mexicans who pay taxes such as myself making over six figures a year.
> 
> ...


I agree...

What do you have to say about that Stan! First of all i think is cowardly how you how all of you "vent" your problems with illegal immigrants, in a forum. I have tried to keep my mouth shut, every time i am reading an electrical related topic and someones starts with theyre racist comments, but damn to start a thread in the General Electrical Discussion forum:no::ban:Who else agrees with me, every one is entittled to their own opinions but this is not the place, who else agrees with me


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

p_logix said:


> The illegals who are here, are getting paid by legal Americans. The "Mexicans" as you say, are doing the jobs that blacks and white people will not do. How often do you see a "Mexican begging for money"? At least they are trying to work and make a better living for themself.
> 
> I am against illegal immigration, however I'd rather see a "Mexican working", then begging for money on the side of a freeway. Stan Mason if you come down to LA area you will find plenty of Mexicans who pay taxes such as myself making over six figures a year.
> 
> ...


 
In my area you don't see any begging for money but when you read the newspaper you find plenty that have been caught robbing and stealing or being drunk and disorderly an shooting at each other in the police blotter.
Come to think of it, I'd rather see them begging.


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## 5volts (Jan 11, 2008)

> In my area you don't see any begging for money


Thats what I thought.



> In my area you don't see any begging for money but when you read the newspaper you find plenty that have been caught robbing and stealing or being drunk and disorderly an shooting at each other in the police blotter.
> Come to think of it, I'd rather see them begging.


If your intentions were to encourage more “Non Mexicans” to join this discussion, in my opinion you failed.

I believe that we all have alot to learn about dealing with other people; however, anybody who singles out "Mexicans" in a thread promotes stereotyping and pure ignorance. I applaud your input and wish you success in achieving your goal.

You are entitled to your own opinion and thats fine with me. I have my opinions but I don't start and blurt them out on a professional Electrical contractors forum.

Maybe the moderators of the site can open up a section on this forum, where you and others can vent and discuss politics, racism, and all that crap.


P.S. May the music from the "Mexican Sheetrockers" blast loud in your ear. :rockon:


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## piette (Feb 7, 2008)

JRent said:


> I agree...
> 
> What do you have to say about that Stan! First of all i think is cowardly how you how all of you "vent" your problems with illegal immigrants, in a forum. I have tried to keep my mouth shut, every time i am reading an electrical related topic and someones starts with theyre racist comments, but damn to start a thread in the General Electrical Discussion forum:no::ban:Who else agrees with me, every one is entittled to their own opinions but this is not the place, who else agrees with me


Not I. Not in the slighest bit. This is a real problem that affects everyone of us on here. Illegals are running this country into the ground faster than our government can try to prop it up. They are a joke, they are the bain of society. If Mexicans want to come here for work, feel free, but do it the right way. This country has a legal system in place which allows proper immigration. When they come across the river and decide to do it the illegal way, screw em, they have no rights, and they should get nothing. They come here with a screw em attitude when they decide they don't need to do it the proper way, so screw em back. I personally will do all I can to make the lives a living hell of any illegal I can find. In this area, most contractors now are supporting only those that hire real legal American citizens.

Jeff


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

First if we really wanted to stop illegals we would penalize employers HEAVILY. Second illegals are just that ILLEGAL, we need to control our borders, I am not for a fence but we need to toughen up on illegal entry. As work gets tough as it is presently many will throw stones at illegals, and that is human nature. I also believe many will go home. Many illegals are only filling a need, landscapers, laborers. At one time these were jobs that were filled by Americans. Watch TV and the likes of the liberal elite will tell you these are demeaning jobs, often touting how one cannot make a living doing "this " type of work. Well you can make a living doing "this" type of work but you won't live like a Kennedy. But you work hard your kids get educated and wallah the American dream. But no we are told this does not work the dream is dead. HORSE HOKEY, my father worked two jobs for years, I worked 80 hours a week for years, busting my arse and you can make it and those coming in now some will make it and others will fail. I do not think you can blame a man that can come here and get a job to make more in 3 months than he would make in a year in his country in a year for trying to better his self. BUT we as a country need to look hard at this and decide if we really want to stop this then we can. But Congress will never tackle the issue fully, heaven forbid they upset the a sector of the population. As for discussing this topic here no one else wants to discuss it I think we should in a civil manner. I feel it impacts our trade DIRECTLY and if the moderators feel we are off subject let them close the thread. Divergent opinions on both ends need to be explored. There are those that would arrest and boot all illegals, there are others that would give amnesty to them all. IMO both extremes are wrong. But if how other feel upsets you, well welcome to the internet.


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## ACB (Oct 21, 2008)

To bring this to a more Electrical oriented Note,,,,,,,,
The problem I can see existing is when they are hired as cheap labour as a labourer, for several years at lower rates than a regular labourer, taking away a legitimate citizens opertunity to get into the trade. and the more crooked contractor will train them to do wiring and have them pulling wire as labourers. then once they are citizens given an aprenticeship.

The issue in alot of the trades here (in Canada) is not so much the ilegals but the legals, they come here and whine and cry that they want to work in their respective occupations that they did in their homeland, from the trades to health care proffessionals or whatever. The issue with that is, standards, rules and methods/practices are different all over the world, and for the most part there is an outcry by these imagrants about their suposide licences or certificates not being honored here, in most cases its a matter of retesting here, or taking some courses and tests to get up to speed and the knowledge to work within our regs, but most don't want to do that little step, they just want us to honor what they claim to have and let them start off at top dollar, top possitions and go. Sorry but some of these countries you can buy a licence or certificate on any street corner while on your way to the airport or boat. I am sure if I imagrated to the US or UK I would have to retest and get certified for either country, and I would have no problem with that. so what makes these people so special that they think they should not have to??? they have supporters here and our government is being pressured to streamline and in some cases let them work without any qualification checks or testing. "hello I am your neurosurgeon, I will be operating on your brain, I just arrived from some war torn country in eastern europe or africa that is in so much disaray that I can't prove who I am but I tell your goverment that I can do this so they now let me, but I can't effectively comunicate with you so this is why a translater is talking to you".
there are less strict industries such as machine shops where a foriegn machinist will set up shop and import all his friends and reletives to work there, most of them are not machinists, they are just taught to run a machine, and they work cheap allowing that shop to undercut legitimate shops with people holding a canadian ticket. so when this is allowed in the more tightly controled trades there will be dozens or more that will do what they can to fly under the radar with their labourer and aprentice to journyman ratios and practices way off what is legaly required. undercutting the legitimate companies. The imagrants I have talked to hate all the rules and regs we have to follow in our various trades for instalations and work practices as well safety, and they try to avoid complience to save a buck whenever they can.

I give it a few years and we'll all be working for dirt wages to keep somekind of income coming in to compete against this crap. Hope I can retire before that happens.
There goes the neigourhood!

I am in no way racist (I hate everyone the same) I just beleave that if you go somewhere you follow the rules there and if you don't like the rules there then go somewhere where you like the rules, and not try to change them. and that applies to all the rules.


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## Marco Electric (Sep 18, 2008)

Isn't it American to do a better job then the next guy for less money?


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## BryanMD (Dec 31, 2007)

Marco Electric said:


> Isn't it American to do a better job then the next guy for less money?


No. That's just foolish.

American is to do a better job then the next guy for more money.
American is to do less of a job then the next guy for less money.

Back on topic(s):
This thread should probably be moved to the "off topic" area.
Illegal border crossing criminals are NOT immigrants.
(their descendants are another matter) 
Immigrants are something everyone here has had in their family past.
Some more recent than others.


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## jwelectric (Sep 28, 2008)

When I read *junk* such as this I can’t help but think about those poor Native Americans that were pushed out of their homes when those *immigrants* came to America’s eastern shore. 

Back then those immigrants just killed anyone they didn’t like, raped their woman and killed their children. Some were even paid to do nothing more than kill anyone who was here first so we could take over.

When all this first took place was WE looking for a better life or was WE looking to take what ever we could and for free? Even way back then we were too lazy to do any physical work. We took to enslaving people due to the color of their skin and if they didn’t want to work we would beat them some to death. 

On a side note I can’t help but wonder just who the southern part of the US belonged to back in the early 1800s. I also can’t help but wonder just how we should feel when those who were stole from in the first place asks for help. Maybe we should just revert back to the old way of thinking, it is yours but we want it so look out here we come.

I suppose that just because I am paying taxes it gives me the right to keep in oppression those who were wronged for the past 500 years. The Native Americans are even today treated like they don’t belong here even though they were here way before any of us. 

I can remember a story I was taught when I was young. A man long ago asks a crowd of people, “Why do you see the mote in your brother’s eye but can not see the beam in your own eye?”
Today us Americans do side jobs that we don’t declare on our taxes, do work without permits and even do jobs at a reduced price. So I think we need to first look at ourselves before looking elsewhere. If we first fix ourselves the rest will take care of itself, plain and simple.


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

Well Said JW.:thumbsup:

What makes you think they are mexicans? I bet if you ever talk with some of them you will find alot of them are from South America. Most people see a hispanic and ASSume they are mexican and illegal. The problem is everyone sees the illegals in the news and ASSumes all are illegal. 
You would be surprised as to how many are really holding the proper paperwork and are paying taxes.

How do you feel when someone in a suit and tie looks down on YOU because your just a construction worker? Everyone knows that construction workers are uneducated,crude,and have no social skills,because if they did they wouldn't be construction workers.

Rant over, I'm walking back to my corner of the world now


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

jwelectric said:


> When I read *junk* such as this I can’t help but think about those poor Native Americans that were pushed out of their homes when those *immigrants* (WASPs) came to America’s eastern shore.
> 
> Back then those immigrants just killed anyone they didn’t like, raped their woman and killed their children. Some were even paid to do nothing more than kill anyone who was here first so we could take over.
> 
> ...


It wasn't all that came here that killed the first residents. I think you will find it was the Northern Europeans that conquered lands, and enslaved people. No need to generalize and blame everyone who came here. 

NO, not all Americans do side jobs and do jobs at a reduced rate, there are many that don't. 

What does your rant have to do with "illegal immigrants" any way???


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## electrician1957 (May 12, 2008)

jwelectric said:


> When I read *junk* such as this I can’t help but think about those poor Native Americans that were pushed out of their homes when those *immigrants* came to America’s eastern shore.


This is a popular notion but not supported by historical facts. The Indians were not native to North America, they migrated here across the Bering Land Bridge.

The Indians moved eastward across the continent while the Anglos moved westward. There was a clash of cultures and the Indians lost.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

electrician1957 said:


> This is a popular notion but not supported by historical facts. The Indians were not native to North America, they migrated here across the Bering Land Bridge.
> 
> The Indians moved eastward across the continent while the Anglos moved westward. There was a clash of cultures and the Indians lost.


 
I hate to agree with JW but, I do believe they were here at the time the British, Spanish, and French came. It matters very little how they really got here, they were here and were slaughtered for land just the same. It wasn't right how they were killed for bringing arrows and stone knives to a "gun fight". Not to mention how many were eliminated by European diseases.


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## electrician1957 (May 12, 2008)

MechanicalDVR said:


> I hate to agree with JW but, I do believe they were here at the time the British, Spanish, and French came. It matters very little how they really got here, they were here and were slaughtered for land just the same. It wasn't right how they were killed for bringing arrows and stone knives to a "gun fight". Not to mention how many were eliminated by European diseases.


The Indians were in fact, modern era cavemen. They mastered fire but failed to invent the wheel or even forge bronze. Lacking caves, they built rustic shelters from the hides of animals. The Indians had no government, currency or economy. They moved into an area, depleted it's resources and moved on. 

The British, Spanish and French societies were highly evolved and organized. The steam engine was invented in England in 1698 at a time when Indians were riding horses. The Spanish were the ones who introduced horses to North America, prior to that, Indians simply shuffled from place to place.

The Indians were the "people that time forgot". Backward primitives living off the land while other cultures embarked upon revolutions in agriculture, medicine and industry.

It is sad that these simple stone age people were slaughtered and abused, but this is how Natural Selection works. Theirs was an inferior culture and it was replaced by a superior culture and at the risk of sounding callous, we are the better for it...


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

electrician1957 said:


> The Indians were in fact, modern era cavemen. They mastered fire but failed to invent the wheel or even forge bronze. Lacking caves, they built rustic shelters from the hides of animals. The Indians had no government, currency or economy. They moved into an area, depleted it's resources and moved on.
> 
> The British, Spanish and French societies were highly evolved and organized. The steam engine was invented in England in 1698 at a time when Indians were riding horses. The Spanish were the ones who introduced horses to North America, prior to that, Indians simply shuffled from place to place.
> 
> ...


 
So, in thinking along those lines it would be acceptable for the USA to conquer mexico because they are an inferior culture?


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## jwelectric (Sep 28, 2008)

MechanicalDVR said:


> It wasn't all that came here that killed the first residents. I think you will find it was the Northern Europeans that conquered lands, and enslaved people. No need to generalize and blame everyone who came here.


 Yea you are probably right it was just a few that had that mentality. 



MechanicalDVR said:


> To me it's a huge "Catch 22" situation, they are over running our borders and it's illegal to shoot them.


 Then again you never know just who is lay waiting someone just because they are doing the same thing we did around 500 years ago. 




MechanicalDVR said:


> NO, not all Americans do side jobs and do jobs at a reduced rate, there are many that don't.


 Again you are probably right it is just those that belly ach about someone else doing it that have and still do things illeagal.




MechanicalDVR said:


> What does your rant have to do with "illegal immigrants" any way???


 Once again you are probably right. Chris without a doubt did obtain a visa before coming over here from Spain


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## electrician1957 (May 12, 2008)

MechanicalDVR said:


> So, in thinking along those lines it would be acceptable for the USA to conquer mexico because they are an inferior culture?


Cultures do not decide to conquer other cultures simply because they view them as inferior. That would be foolish. There must be a need to do so. There must be something valuable to entice the culture into attacking, wealth of some kind, or land or natural resources. There has to be a pay day.


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## electrician1957 (May 12, 2008)

It would be hard to overstate the superiority of european culture over Indian culture. While Indians made canoes from logs found in the forest, the Spanish Armada was the most powerful navy in the world. The indians may as well have been up against aliens from outer space, their demise was inevetable.


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

MechanicalDVR said:


> So, in thinking along those lines it would be acceptable for the USA to conquer mexico because they are an inferior culture?


we already did back when we could do things like that as a country
http://members.tripod.com/aries46/alamo.htm


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Originally Posted by *MechanicalDVR*  
_To me it's a huge "Catch 22" situation, they are over running our borders and it's illegal to shoot them._
Then again you never know just who is lay waiting someone just because they are doing the same thing we did around 500 years ago. 

If your trying to say I'm being a hypocrite about it by saying I believe in shooting border crossers, it isn't the same to me, I don't view them like indigenous people. I have no problem taking out an intruder in my home or a fence jumper trying to come into my homeland. Some of us here have taken a stand in their past and had to defend their position,my turn was a small airport compound in Beirut fall of 1983.


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## electrician1957 (May 12, 2008)

Well, there's no denying that construction has changed profoundly over the past 25 years. I would say that over all, it is a far less appealing industry than it was 25 years ago. If I could have foreseen these changes back then, I would have pursued a career in another field.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

nolabama said:


> we already did back when we could do things like that as a country
> http://members.tripod.com/aries46/alamo.htm


 
The Marines fought there twelve years after the Alamo, leaving the border that currently exists. Hence "From The Halls of Montezuma", from taking mexico city.


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## Wireless (Jan 22, 2007)

electrician1957 said:


> Well, there's no denying that construction has changed profoundly over the past 25 years. I would say that over all, it is a far less appealing industry than it was 25 years ago. If I could have foreseen these changes back then, I would have pursued a career in another field.


I think people who worked for Lehman Brothers are saying the same thing!


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

Wireless said:


> I think people who worked for Lehman Brothers are saying the same thing!


 
Ironic how art imitates life and vice versa, anyone remember a movie called Wall Street and the unscrupulous characters? Looks like the stuff you read in the papers daily.


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

MechanicalDVR said:


> The Marines ....... Hence "From The Halls of Montezuma", from taking mexico city.


i dont think most americans would even know what that means today - our culture is changeing (erodeing if you ask me) but if look to history we would find a similar dispute with imagrants at the turn of the last century - only difference the laws in place were enforced - if all or most of america think that what is going on with ILLEGAL immagration then they should change the laws - or at least try to and see how america really feels


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## jwelectric (Sep 28, 2008)

nolabama said:


> MechanicalDVR said:
> 
> 
> > The Marines …………. Hence "From The Halls of Montezuma", from taking mexico city.
> ...




I did an essay on this battle way back in the 10th grade. I can't help but remember the ages of some of the people that died when that academy was hit, 11-16. 
Some reports have these kids wrapping their self in the flag and jumping from the top of the school. 
Some reports have General Lee saluting these kids as they leaped to their death for their country.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

electrician1957 said:


> Well, there's no denying that construction has changed profoundly over the past 25 years. I would say that over all, it is a far less appealing industry than it was 25 years ago. If I could have foreseen these changes back then, I would have pursued a career in another field.


 I think just the opposite while the trade has changed I specialized in solving electrical anomalies, and with the change in the trade my work continues to boom and I enjoy it more than ever.


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## Mountain Electrician (Jan 22, 2007)

I spent 20+ years in Southwestern New Mexico about 225 miles from Juarez, Mexico and was never out of work. Ever. It makes no sense to blame an entire race of people for trying to better themselves by taking advantage of an obviously flawed system. If you want to take your frustrations and fears out on someone, take them out on the people who employ them and on the government that allows the situation to continue. 

I currently live in a state who's "Health and Human Services" programs are so good people move here from other states just to get the benefits. How many of these people would take the jobs that the illegal immigrants do? None. Who would pick produce or plant trees? No one. Who would work long hours at back breaking work 7 days a week for low wages when they could sit home doing nothing and collect more money? Nobody. And at least on this forum, I doubt anyone has lost their jobs to an illegal alien. 

You could close our borders up airtight, but until we institute welfare reform and put or own deadbeats to work, it wouldn't fix a thing. Real simple...no work, no money. At the same time, it would be vital that no government assistance beyond what is required for basic human survival be offered to anyone working and living in the US illegally. Employers who use illegal labor would have to be heavily penalized as well. You have to treat the disease, not just the symptoms. We need both immigration and welfare reform. IMO, they should go hand in hand.

I understand the OP's frustration because of the hassles involved getting his daughter into the US, but that really doesn't apply to the illegal immigrant debate. Once she's here, she's here and won't have to spend her time looking over her shoulder worrying about being caught and deported. 

As far as the comments about shooting Mexicans and Natural Selection and it's application to Native Americans, I sure hope you guys aren't serious.


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## 5volts (Jan 11, 2008)

> I spent 20+ years in Southwestern New Mexico about 225 miles from Juarez, Mexico and was never out of work. Ever. It makes no sense to blame an entire race of people for trying to better themselves by taking advantage of an obviously flawed system. If you want to take your frustrations and fears out on someone, take them out on the people who employ them and on the government that allows the situation to continue.
> 
> I currently live in a state who's "Health and Human Services" programs are so good people move here from other states just to get the benefits. How many of these people would take the jobs that the illegal immigrants do? None. Who would pick produce or plant trees? No one. Who would work long hours at back breaking work 7 days a week for low wages when they could sit home doing nothing and collect more money? Nobody. And at least on this forum, I doubt anyone has lost their jobs to an illegal alien.
> 
> ...


Mountain, I agree :thumbsup:

great post!


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## JRent (Jul 1, 2008)

Mountain Electrician said:


> I spent 20+ years in Southwestern New Mexico about 225 miles from Juarez, Mexico and was never out of work. Ever. It makes no sense to blame an entire race of people for trying to better themselves by taking advantage of an obviously flawed system. If you want to take your frustrations and fears out on someone, take them out on the people who employ them and on the government that allows the situation to continue.
> 
> I currently live in a state who's "Health and Human Services" programs are so good people move here from other states just to get the benefits. How many of these people would take the jobs that the illegal immigrants do? None. Who would pick produce or plant trees? No one. Who would work long hours at back breaking work 7 days a week for low wages when they could sit home doing nothing and collect more money? Nobody. And at least on this forum, I doubt anyone has lost their jobs to an illegal alien.
> 
> ...


:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## headrec (Feb 25, 2008)

But for every person that takes those jobs that no one wants there is a person getting free welfare for them as well as all theirs kids and their kids. 

I am biased on the situation admittedly BUT I do also see they do serve a purpose that benefits everyone. I am truly am not talking them down, but I feel where there is a will there is a way. If they have the will to step up to moving into a new country they should be willing to go along with what is involved in doing it. Paying taxes, making the effort to work (not sitting back collecting welfare), not abusing the system, etc. I realize there are a LOT that do do all these things as well as a lot of 'americans' that abuse the system. When it comes to the language thing it honestly drives me nuts. "When in Rome..."


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

Mountain Electrician said:


> It makes no sense to blame an entire *race* of people for trying to better themselves by taking advantage of an obviously flawed system.


I agree that no one should be shooting people crossing the border, unless they are wearing Mexican military uniforms or are otherwise armed foreigners.

However, I also want to point out that it has nothing to do with the race of the people. Not to most Americans anyway. Please don't mistake this as racially motivated. If it were droves of my white English cousins, I would be just as opposed to them illegally immigrating. I do not care that they are Brown people, I care because they are illegal.


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## Marco Electric (Sep 18, 2008)

In the philly area there has been a major influx of irish illegals. nobody complains about them,but are quick to jump on the mexicans. In regard to shooting boarder crossers,all the marines I know are honorable men and would never shoot an unarmed civilian trying to make a better life for themselves.Keep in mind we crossed into Iraq illegally and when they kill our guys( who they feel are illegal) the fallen are heros to us.


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## ACB (Oct 21, 2008)

a good point was made in this regarding "jobs that nobody wants", That is something that I really have to wonder about, as with you folks in the US we also have alot of folks with their lips locked firmly on the goverment tit. collecting welfare, you know in some ways a percentage of these anoy me more than illegals do or more in our case up here migrant workers as alot are here legaly under temperary work visas to work the farms. About 25 years ago when I was a teen from '78 to '83 I spent summers working the farms along with many of my friends, starting with strawberries in june to apples in september or in my case tobacco (yes the stompin tom conners song "tilsonburg") moving from orchard to orchard ot vegtables, if you were a hard worker you would make more than minimum wage per hour as it was peice work, tobacco was paid by the kiln (1 per day) I could make almost $5,000 from end of june to middle of sept, which was not bad for a highschool kid in the early 80's and thats tax free as being under 18 and a student. over the years since then something changed, the vast majority are now imported workers, teens are no longer working the farms, unemployed people or house wives are no longer seeking that to make some extra money. I tried encouraging my son to go work the farms in summer when he could not find work anywhere else, "no way" he would tell me, "thats to hard", none of his friends do it either, he would rather have no money then have to work that hard for it. then I also in making some inquireries most farmers won't hire local anymore as it seems white folk have gotten lazy over the years and can't produce like the migrant workers can, and with no complaints. I have allways wondered why the gov does not cut back on welfare for those who are physically able to do that work in the summer to basically force them to take those jobs to supliment their income. but aperently it is some kind of violation of ones rights to be forced (not physicaly but financiallly)to take a job even a temperary one if they don't want to do it. amazingly enough it is not a violation of my rights to have to pay higher taxes to support those who don't want to work at all.
Perhaps this could be held as a partial reason why there are so many illegals and migrant workers because we as a sociaty have created that vacume that they are willing to fill through our own arrogance (as a sociaty) that we are better than everyone else and don't have to do that kind of work, even if it means collecting welfare (for those who are out of work, or for youngsters) it is no wonder that so many more in todays younger generation has little to no work ethic, as for me and my generation that kind of work taught us to work hard, work smart, and it pays off, the better you do the more you make.
We have our share of illegals up here however I don't think its as prevelent, without looking up statistics going by what I hear in the news and on the street its more so a wider mix of cultures from third world countries including china, the manage to hop of a plane or boat some on temp visas or visitor visas, or no visa and claim political asylem, then disapear into sociaty and work for cash, usually in bigger cities like Toronto, Hongcouver (vancouver) Montreal where they can go un-noticed, more than likely in jobs supported or owned by their fellow countrymen who are here legally, in industries that can easily pay cash without a trace.
I don't know if there is a way to completely stop it unless we put the borders and airports into a complete lock down mode, start up camps for asylem seekers where they stay untill they are procesed, have tourists check in with an official every 24 hours, and much more, that could get expensive for us tax payers as the manpower needed would be probly 10 times what either country has now, to manage and watch borders and watch people who could disapear into sociaty that should not.
Perhaps governments need to find a ballance that makes everyone as happy as possible with the outcome of it , but there is not going to be a way to make everyone happy, (and I am not refering to the illegals happieness)


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## ACB (Oct 21, 2008)

just a follow up, I definately am against illegals, seeking a better life or not, there are ways to enter legally through the proper channels.
And why is it that some countries that have the nicest climates (year round) cna't seem to get their economies going, like here we have up to 6 months of crap for weather, and it costs a fortune for industry to heat massive huge buildings, transportation is a B**** as insurance is higher due to more accidents in poor weather, etc etc yet we seem to have the most available and higher paying work than some of these third world countries. whats up with that?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

headrec said:


> But for every person that takes those jobs that no one wants there is a person getting free welfare for them as well as all theirs kids and their kids.
> quote]
> 
> 
> But you cannot blame those that want to be here legally or illegally for failed government programs. I feel we need a safety net for some but the net has now become an all encompassing carry all.


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

Marco Electric said:


> In the philly area there has been a major influx of irish illegals. nobody complains about them,but are quick to jump on the mexicans. In regard to shooting boarder crossers,all the marines I know are honorable men and would never shoot an unarmed civilian trying to make a better life for themselves.Keep in mind we crossed into Iraq illegally and when they kill our guys( who they feel are illegal) the fallen are heros to us.


 
I don't think there is any comparison between our military forces invading a foreign country and illegal border hoppers entering our country to jump on the welfare benefits line. And the next time you talk to a Marine you know take the time and ask if he would shoot an unarmed border jumper or not, you maybe a tad surprised at his answer. I was raised on "Corps values", upholding the Constitution and working on Presidential orders and I would have no problem dropping border jumpers all day long.


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

InPhase277 said:


> I agree that no one should be shooting people crossing the border, unless they are wearing Mexican military uniforms or are otherwise armed foreigners.
> 
> However, I also want to point out that it has nothing to do with the race of the people. Not to most Americans anyway. Please don't mistake this as racially motivated. If it were droves of my white English cousins, I would be just as opposed to them illegally immigrating. I do not care that they are Brown people, I care because they are illegal.


 

I agree 100%. Color and or ethnicity have no place in this situation. It just matters that the illegals are putting one hell of a burden on our social programs. They are over taxing the services of hospitals and medical facilities in Cali. very badly. Here in NJ a hospital in Newark closed it's doors a few months ago due to extreme monetary loses from illegals and other freeloaders.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

I've got more important things to worry about than mexicans working here illegally.

I don't think we should provide anything like health care or financial aid but if they want to do labor and man the fast food indusrty, go for it.

I used to pick them up all the time at The Home Depot. Those guys would flat out work for 8 to 10 bucks an hour. They didn'y whine, drink or complain. They even said "thank you after digging or loading a dumpster for 10 hours.

I can't pick them up any more...at least not in the company truck. If I have labor to do around the house for personal projects, I will still use them. If Sherrif Joe (AZ) wants to lock me up, fine.

If was born in Mexico, I'd be climbing the fence.


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

220/221 said:


> I've got more important things to worry about than mexicans working here illegally.
> 
> I don't think we should provide anything like health care or financial aid but if they want to do labor and man the fast food indusrty, go for it.
> 
> ...


 
If you aren't part of the solution your a part of the problem. Hiring them is just condoning and supporting a non tax payer. Way to go.:no: I will say you have brass ones for admitting that practice on here.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

I understand the whole "part of the problem" thing but I just don't buy into the hype.

I can't use them professionally *at all* anymore. If I need day labor I have to use the labor centers who generally send out drunks and other assorted worthless individuals.

Besides that, I'm a rebel :jester:


Also, I haven't always claimed every dollar I earned as taxable income but I more than make up for it now. I am going to get hit hard again this year.


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

220/221 said:


> I understand the whole "part of the problem" thing but I just don't buy into the hype.
> 
> :jester:


 
What is the hype? People that come here illegally, work for cash, don't pay taxes, use friends/relatives names and addresses to get drivers licenses and drive with no insurance and put a heavy burden on our social programs is just hype? I REALLY DON'T THINK SO.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

The hype is people getting all up in arms about it.

I think we should simply fix the system that allows them to access our free money and services.

We already have laws that would stop the fraud you describe.

I think there are just as many...probably MORE, *legal* citizens that conduct illegal activity, don't pay taxes and drive without insurance.

I am not debating here BTW, just expressing an opposing view. I understand and respect your views and can't raelly argue the logic.

I tend to take the side of the underdog because I can relate.


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

220/221 said:


> The hype is people getting all up in arms about it.
> 
> I think we should simply fix the system that allows them to access our free money and services.
> 
> ...


 
More people need to get up in arms about it and then politicians will get the word that they need to change some laws and stop the wholesale rape of our social programs by illegals.


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## JRent (Jul 1, 2008)

headrec said:


> But for every person that takes those jobs that no one wants there is a person getting free welfare for them as well as all theirs kids and their kids.
> 
> I am biased on the situation admittedly BUT I do also see they do serve a purpose that benefits everyone. I am truly am not talking them down, but I feel where there is a will there is a way. If they have the will to step up to moving into a new country they should be willing to go along with what is involved in doing it. Paying taxes, making the effort to work (not sitting back collecting welfare), not abusing the system, etc. I realize there are a LOT that do do all these things as well as a lot of 'americans' that abuse the system. When it comes to the language thing it honestly drives me nuts. "When in Rome..."


Okay...I see your point but when you say "sitting back collecting welfare" you mean whites and african americans.
Statistics show this...
White 38.8%

Black 39.8

*Hispanic/Latino 15.7 *This thread is mostly directed to "Mexicans so this number is much smaller.

Asian 2.4

other 3.3

I pretty sure statistics will prove wrong all of your ignorant thoughts. I understand, been in this country as an illegal is not looked upon as correct by many americans, especially if you are a criminal as many immigrants are, but to go assuming every mexican is not paying taxes, been on welfare, taking jobs away from us citizens is the worst stereotyping there is. To this time it is still ok to critize ou race(my race), make fun of our traditions, stereotyping etc., but the mood changes really quick when you start taliking abour other races, especially now with our soon to be president. Oh believe me, it is not the mexican which is screwing the goverment throug welfare and taxes, and like i said there is alot of statistics proving this


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> More people need to get up in arms about it and then politicians will get the word that they need to change some laws and stop the wholesale rape of our social programs by illegals.


Why are we *NOT* up in arms about the *same crimes* committed by legal residents?


That's my whole point. Do you really think that the illegals are taking more from the system than the legals? I bet not.

People take advantage of the system. THAT's the problem. Don't put the blame solely on the illegals. Quit giving **** away.


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## headrec (Feb 25, 2008)

JRent said:


> Okay...I see your point but when you say "sitting back collecting welfare" you mean whites and african americans.
> Statistics show this...
> White 38.8%
> 
> ...


Like I said in the previous post

I realize there are a lot that do do all these things as well as a lot of 'americans' that abuse the system.

It's one situation encompassing all people. But if an illegal is in our country there already have a strike against them. Not paying taxes is another big one (not always but it does happen). Language (not always but the 'stereotypical' view) is another.

Personally I have seen my best friends car hit twice and totalled once by illegal immigrants every single time it was their fault. They saw no repercussions to the situation other then they wrecked their own car (which may have not been theirs to begin with). He had to have his insurance pay out of pocket EVERY SINGLE TIME! The illegal walked unscathed. Its bull****. Imagine driving to work tomorrow an illegal runs a light and totals your car. Then you have to pay for it and then your taxes money gets to pay for his food. Im sure you would be stoked about that.

Once again let me restate it goes many ways but stating my personal biased opinion. I know I am not the guy that knows everything about it. Just saying I think things need to change...for everyone.


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## piette (Feb 7, 2008)

220/221 said:


> Why are we up in arms about the *same crimes* committed by legal residents?
> 
> 
> That's my whole point. Do you really think that the illegals are taking more from the system than the legals? I bet not.
> ...


The fact is the illegals have absolutely no, zero, ziltch, NADA, legal right to be in this country. Having our own citizens milking the system is one thing, hopefully at some point we can make them productive members of society, or at least some member of there family ws and paid into the system. The illegals have never paid into the system, they only take. When our citizens sit around and collect welfare, chances are very good that money is 100% being returned back into the community, when illegals come here and get the money, they are sending it out of our country, helping no one here. 

They are a drain on this country. 

I wish our government would start paying legal citizens $100 for every illegal they turn in and get sent back where they belong. It would be cheaper than what they are costing us every year. Then use the savings to place well trained long range shooting border patrol all the way along the border. Step one foot across the border illegally and you get yourself a lead induced headache. This is our country and we should be able to protect our borders as we see fit.

Jeff


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

piette said:


> The fact is the illegals have absolutely no, zero, ziltch, NADA, legal right to be in this country. Having our own citizens milking the system is one thing, hopefully at some point we can make them productive members of society, or at least some member of there family ws and paid into the system. The illegals have never paid into the system, they only take. When our citizens sit around and collect welfare, chances are very good that money is 100% being returned back into the community, when illegals come here and get the money, they are sending it out of our country, helping no one here.
> 
> They are a drain on this country.
> 
> ...


 
Finally a good point of view on the issue. My wife came here on a student visa. We were married while she was still here legally. Once married she was illegal for a long time while paperwork was pending and we were held up in goverment red tape. She was unable to drive, unable to work and I had a hard time putting her on my medical insurance because of her not having a social security number. She is now a permanent resident, after it has cost me thousands and countless hours of bs meetings and everything else. If she was from mexico it would have been much easier, if we decided to be dishonest about things it also would have been much easier. But, we did it all through proper channels and it was costly and time consuming. She is from South Africa, a country we have no real trade or treaties with making her situation that much harder to get resloved. My brother in law is currently going through all the same bs from marrying my wifes sister, it hasn't gotten any easier since 9/11 only harder for people doing it all the legal way. The real issue that twists my chain is seeing some mostly mexicans and central americans skirting the system in many ways and I know for a fact that they do, I don't need bs statistics to show me the biggest offenders. I know just how it is in my area and it is bad. If they ever build the fence and want volunteers to man it and drop the jumpers in their tracks, I will take a leave of absence from my company and sit there with an M40A2 as long as they like (free of charge). Uncle sam employed me for years and supported my needs the least I can do is return the favor.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

I have been hit twice by uninsured legals.


You guy are directing your anger in the wrong place.


Fight to change the *flawed system* that gives people free stuff.


I noticed that there is no response to the fact that there are *WAY* more *legals* draining this country's economy.

OK....now I'm debating


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

220/221 said:


> I have been hit twice by uninsured legals.
> 
> Ok and your point is ?
> 
> ...


 
No I think your diverting from the issue at hand.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

I have been hit twice by uninsured legals.

Ok and your point is ?

*My point was obviously a counterpoint to the person who complained that his friend was hit twice by illegals. It doesn't matter The problem isn't if they are legal or not, the problem is they are uninsured.*


You guy are directing your anger in the wrong place.

Should I be mad at you for your past practice of hiring illegals?

*No. You should feel blessed just to know me.*


Fight to change the *flawed system* that gives people free stuff.

News flash, as long as there are democrats people will be getting free stuff

*Now THAT is just stupid. I can't argue with stupid. Sweeping generalizations are never a good idea if you are trying to gain credibility.*


I noticed that there is no response to the fact that there are *WAY* more *legals* draining this country's economy.

Maybe because legals are entitled to get benefits from social programs, that is what they are there for, not to feed the world or cure their ailments, yes there will be abuses but there always are. That is a subject for another forum. I vote to try and get things changed.

_I knew we'd eventually agree on something.:thumbsup:_


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

220/221 said:


> You guy are directing your anger in the wrong place.
> 
> Should I be mad at you for your past practice of hiring illegals?
> 
> ...


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

randomkiller said:


> 220/221 said:
> 
> 
> > You guy are directing your anger in the wrong place.
> ...


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> Democrats support and vote in tons of social programs to benefits the masses, that is just common fact, they have always been that way. My only problem with that is they care little where the funding for those programs comes from.


 
And Blacks want to kill ******, Mexicans are sneaking their cousins over the boarder in droves, Asians are using their giant brains to plot world domination and White folks want everyone who isn't White/Christian to go the hell away.

When you generalize about ANYONE, you lose all credibility and end up ranting like just another paranoid angry white guy who eats up whatever the conservative Christians are feeding him.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

How many posts do I need to go back on this thread to find something electrical?


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

Shooting ilegals is not the answer at all,thats just childish.How about the lawmakers that don't don anything to them once they get here?

Why don't you guys stop talking ,seriously this thread has gotten pretty imature.

I am also a veteran but you don't see me telling everyone about it every other post.

Guys that have served and actually have had to fight and kill in combat don't brag about it(hell I don't even like to talk about it,which is why I don't) and they sure as hell don't claim to want to kill more people.

Now back to the electrical stuff,most of the guys using mexicians around here have gotten rid of most of them,do you think there are more or less mexicians doing electrical work as compared to a few years ago?


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

I agree. Drop the political garbage and name calling and get this thread back on track.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Stan Mason said:


> Ok this i know is not a electrical problem, but it a real problem why is it when you go to a job site or drive by it all you see is Mexicans I am not a racist or prejudise i am just mad that they don't pay taxes and are here illegally and now were going in to a ression and all they have to do is go back to mexico and live like kings, I think they should pay taxes.How can we fight for more money when they would work for half of what we make,Just Venting


 
I don't think it swerved too far off the road.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

robnj772 said:


> I am also a veteran but you don't see me telling everyone about it every other post.
> 
> Guys that have served and actually have had to fight and kill in combat don't brag about it(hell I don't even like to talk about it,which is why I don't) and they sure as hell don't claim to want to kill more people.


 
Maybe he is well adjusted, from a military family background and views it as a proud part of his past as I also do. Some are just Veterans, other are still Marines, there is a difference. Once a Marine, always a Marine.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

Yesterday, I talked with the guy we use to drill holes (for parking lot light poles).

He has 3 of his guys/machines at the AZ border drilling holes 12 hours a day for fencing :thumbsup:


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## electrician1957 (May 12, 2008)

Stan Mason said:


> Ok this i know is not a electrical problem, but it a real problem why is it when you go to a job site or drive by it all you see is Mexicans


I happen to be an authority on this subject. Whatever your opinion on this issue is, one fact is certain: Learn to speak Spanish if you wish to work in construction.


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

electrician1957 said:


> I happen to be an authority on this subject. Whatever your opinion on this issue is, one fact is certain: Learn to speak Spanish if you wish to work in construction.


SCREW THAT!!!!!!!!!!!

If they want to work here THEY need to speak ENGLISH

All the immigrants that came here from euorope learned english

Whats the difference....oh wait..the spanish speaking ones are illegal

They should not be shot but just sent back acroos the border,If they are coming to our country its quite simple
1.Learn English
2.Become a citizen and pay taxes

Thats it
Hey if your gonna go out of your way to learn spanish to accomidate them why don't you pay thier taxes too,that would help us all out. :stupid:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

electrician1957 said:


> I happen to be an authority on this subject. Whatever your opinion on this issue is, one fact is certain: Learn to speak Spanish if you wish to work in construction.


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## G & G Electric (Dec 13, 2008)

I know the immigration problem is bad all over, but here in Texas they are truly reclaiming the territory they lost. I can't blame them for sneaking over - life is really bad south of the border. The screwed up policies we have toward immigration is where the problem lies. If we were to utilize the word ILLIGAL, as in ILLIGAL aliens, then the ones who are here illegally should be sent back. Herein lies another problem; the illegals are getting crafty. My brother, who is a longtime officer for a major city here in Texas, says the new scam is for an illigal to get caught committing a small crime. They are arrested, and tried, and for the first time offender (first time offender in the U.S. anyway) they get probation. Guess what that means? For the duration of their probation they are FORBIDDEN to leave the U.S., even though they are ILLIGAL!!?!?!??! Once the Mexicans (and I am not racist or prejudiced, just stating the facts) realize they truly have power in numbers, they will start to vote. And when they vote, they will vote for like-minded politicians (like we do), and soon enough will begin to vote more Mexicans into U.S. political offices. So the story goes...It will not get any better for the tax paying American. We will continue to foot the bill for their healthcare, housing, food, etc, etc. There is no happy ending for us, the taxpaying American.


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## electrician1957 (May 12, 2008)

robnj772 said:


> SCREW THAT!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> If they want to work here THEY need to speak ENGLISH


They seem unaware of this requirement.



robnj772 said:


> All the immigrants that came here from euorope learned english


They had to, now that we are a bilingual country this is not necessary 



robnj772 said:


> Whats the difference....oh wait..the spanish speaking ones are illegal


Ok, well, you're right on this count




robnj772 said:


> They should not be shot but just sent back acroos the border,If they are coming to our country its quite simple
> 1.Learn English
> 2.Become a citizen and pay taxes


They didn't speak english or pay taxes in their own country so it's highly unlikely they'll do so here



robnj772 said:


> Thats it
> Hey if your gonna go out of your way to learn spanish to accomidate them why don't you pay thier taxes too,that would help us all out. :stupid:


I didn't learn Spanish to accommodate them, I learned Spanish so that I could exploit them for my own personal gain. We are in the middle of what I call a "clash of cultures". It's happening and there's nothing you can do about it. If you don't speak Spanish, you will lose, that's the harsh reality.

Don't hate the player, hate the game.


----------



## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

electrician1957 said:


> They had to, now that we are a bilingual country this is not necessary


Well, Kalifornia might be a bi-lingual country, but the USA is NOT!





electrician1957 said:


> If you don't speak Spanish, you will lose, that's the harsh reality.


Maybe in Ca. 
I 1000% REFUSE to speak spanish. Even a little. And NO, I don't think it would "benefit" me to learn. 
Sure, there are tons of illegals in my area as well, but NONE of them are any benefit to me.

I do not blame them for being in the trades. I blame our educational system that has put a stigma on blue collar work and has been telling our youth for years that manual labor is beneath them, and that a degree and a B-S suit job is the only way to go.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

"utilize the word ILLIGAL, as in ILLIGAL aliens"

Illigal, is that the spanish spelling?


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## electrician1957 (May 12, 2008)

Speedy Petey said:


> I blame our educational system that has put a stigma on blue collar work and has been telling our youth for years that manual labor is beneath them, and that a degree and a B-S suit job is the only way to go.


You bring up a very good point. People no longer raise their children to see the construction trades as a legitimate career. Construction is viewed as a nefarious wasteland filled with ex cons, drug addicts and imbeciles. Today a parent would do anything to keep their child out of construction.

The qualified electricians of the past are baby boomers and are now retiring from the industry. There have been very few qualified new people entering the trades to take their places. We've all noticed that there's a severe shortage of real electricians these days.

The days of highly qualified journeymen manning jobs are over, today you may have one qualified electrician overseeing many "assemblers". The electrical industry has changed dramatically over the last 20 years and the current recession will cause it to change even more.

Electrical wiring used to be a noble profession, now it is just a way to make a buck.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

electrician1957 said:


> Electrical wiring used to be a noble profession, now it is just a way to make a buck.


Wait a few more years when here are even less of us. The bucks will be much bigger and our "skills" will be a commodity.


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## Mountain Electrician (Jan 22, 2007)

I learned Spanish so I can speak to my grandchildren! :thumbsup:


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

electrician1957 said:


> If you don't speak Spanish, you will lose, that's the harsh reality.


Yea I don't think I am the one losing.

The ones that are losing are the ones who put all their chips in doing tract homes real cheap now that the recession hit.Most of them have already went under or disapeared around here.

Guys like you hurt the rest of us.

Its guys like you who hire mexicians,who brag about how cheap they can do a job that is the demise of our trade.Walmart electricians who use crap and work like crap and get paid crap.Guys who backstab outlets and call them profit holes.When they all go away and electricians can start charging what we deserve to get paid the world will be a better place


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## 2towbot (Nov 19, 2008)

Anybody else rolled open a set of prints in spanish?
Pfffft! Now i need to do metric conversions
Maybe ill quote em in pesos :laughing:


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

2towbot said:


> Anybody else rolled open a set of prints in spanish?
> Pfffft! Now i need to do metric conversions
> Maybe ill quote em in pesos :laughing:


 
I'd just burn em and the phone number of the place I got them from.

P.S. maybe that just happens to you because your in mexifornia.


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## spoon (Dec 9, 2008)

Stan Mason said:


> Ok this i know is not a electrical problem, but it a real problem why is it when you go to a job site or drive by it *all you see is Mexicans* I am not a racist or prejudise i am just mad that *they don't pay taxes and are here illegally* and *now were going in to a ression and all they have to do is go back to mexico and live like kings*, I think they should pay taxes.How can we fight for more money when they would work for half of what we make,Just Venting


How do you know for a fact they are all illegal and do not pay any taxes? You happened to just figure that out by driving by a jobsite? Something tells me you are just talking out of your rear end by making a blanket generalization like that. If you really want to know, you oughta' ask them. Something tells me you'd never muster up the intestinal fortitude to ever do something like that, which is why you whine about it here. 

Every single Mexican that works in my company is documented, and there's no reason for me to believe otherwise. Here in California, there are very, very stiff penalties for employing illegals. Any *good* contractor would know better than to do so... but really I can't speak for everyone. I am sure there are tons of illegals out there working under-the-table, sending their money back to Mexico... and that sucks for our country. We need to do something about them. How 'bout that wall they were talkin' bout building?

And yes, you are a racist.


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

spoon said:


> How do you know for a fact they are all illegal and do not pay any taxes? You happened to just figure that out by driving by a jobsite? Something tells me you are just talking out of your rear end by making a blanket generalization like that. If you really want to know, you oughta' ask them. Something tells me you'd never muster up the intestinal fortitude to ever do something like that, which is why you whine about it here.
> 
> Every single Mexican that works in my company is documented, and there's no reason for me to believe otherwise. Here in California, there are very, very stiff penalties for employing illegals. Any *good* contractor would know better than to do so... but really I can't speak for everyone. I am sure there are tons of illegals out there working under-the-table, sending their money back to Mexico... and that sucks for our country. We need to do something about them. How 'bout that wall they were talkin' bout building?
> 
> And yes, you are a racist.


 
Everyone has some prejudice on one level or another. It doesn't make him a bad person.


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## frank (Feb 6, 2007)

Just add my note of nonsense to this ' saga' - years ago when I had hair on my head and had cash in the bank,a very good education and technical qualifications with which to bring up my then 2 year old son, I applied to be an immigrant to the USA.

I was told finally ' after months of wrangling and cost that "the white European quota has been fulfilled for your skill level into the near future. We are looking to the Middle East and South America to continue our immigration quotas". When a bloke at the Embassy in London tells you that, then you know it's time to give up.

Did I miss out. Well you never can tell. But I sure as hell know that I would have been a contributor,

Frank


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## spoon (Dec 9, 2008)

randomkiller said:


> spoon said:
> 
> 
> > Stan Mason said:
> ...


People who make racist generalizations like he did, usually have lived sheltered lives. It doesn't make him a bad person at all, just an ignorant person. I can't blame him that he has no Mexican friends, or went to schools which were predominantly not-Mexican, or grew up in a "good old fashioned whitebread mountain town" (ala South Park). :icon_wink:

I don't hate the guy. I've read some of his past posts and he seems pretty stand up, most of the time, but he displays his ignorance when he makes statements like the ones highlighted above. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if he called everyone with slanted eyes and fair skin, "Chinese." :thumbdown:

I bet if he took some time, and sat down to have some lunch with a couple of those "non-tax-paying" Mexicans, he'd probably learn how many years they've been in the country, that they have a family, that they're remodeling their house, that they have a night job, that they're going to school, that they play recreational sports on the weekends, that they coach little league baseball, that they don't get along with their in-laws, that their kid just got suspended from school for cussing at the teacher, who they voted for and why...stuff like that. You'd be surprised at how much like us 'they' really are.


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## Mountain Electrician (Jan 22, 2007)

spoon said:


> I bet if he took some time, and sat down to have some lunch with a couple of those "non-tax-paying" Mexicans, he'd probably learn how many years they've been in the country, that they have a family, that they're remodeling their house, that they have a night job, that they're going to school, that they play recreational sports on the weekends, that they coach little league baseball, that they don't get along with their in-laws, that their kid just got suspended from school for cussing at the teacher, who they voted for and why...stuff like that. You'd be surprised at how much like us 'they' really are.


That has been my experience.


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

spoon said:


> I bet if he took some time, and sat down to have some lunch with a couple of those "non-tax-paying" Mexicans, he'd probably learn how many years they've been in the country, that they have a family, that they're remodeling their house, that they have a night job, that they're going to school, that they play recreational sports on the weekends, that they coach little league baseball, that they don't get along with their in-laws, that their kid just got suspended from school for cussing at the teacher, who they voted for and why...stuff like that. You'd be surprised at how much like us 'they' really are.


Oh screw that,I have sat down and have had lunch with some but they couldn't speak english so how the hell do I know what they said.

If they were as great as you say they are they would be here LEGALLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

They would take the time to learn our language 

They would pay taxes 

Their kid may have cussed at the teacher but the teacher should have cussed back and then called INS and had his whole family deported because they don't pay taxes so that means that they don 't pay a god damn dime towards that teachers salary or the damn school.US hard working LEGAL TAXPAYing citizens are stuck paying for his stupid kid to get an education.

And after their recreational sports they go home and knock up their old ladies again so yup you guessed it,now they run of to the hospital and have the baby,but ohhhh no health insurance??? oh thats ok all the hard working LEGAL TAXPAYing citizens that have health insurance can cover that for you,go home and knock up your wife again,they got the next one too.

If they really were like us they wouldn't be able to afford to live here
Because if they had to pay taxes and health insurance they would have to get paid as much as us and then no one would hire them because they don't speak english.


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## spoon (Dec 9, 2008)

robnj772 said:


> Oh screw that,I have sat down and have had lunch with some but they couldn't speak english so how the hell do I know what they said. <snip>


That's is a lie and you know it, junior. Reading that jumble of words you managed to string together almost gave me a headache. :001_huh:

I live in the "land of Mexicans" more or less, and almost every single "Mexican" I have ever worked with speaks *some sort* of English. Granted, some speak better than others, but even the ones that don't, seem to try. I even try to teach them a little English while we're talking or working... you know, help them out a bit. It makes me feel better as a person and it also teaches them a little something. The time passes by pretty quick too, not to mention they would be more of a help to me thereafter. Win-win?

Yes, there are illegals out there who don't speak a lick of English, and they DO piss me off too, just like you piss ME off. And I want them out just like I want YOU out. Doesn't mean I'm ever gonna get my way though, does it? Sometimes, son, you just gotta' make lemonade when your dealt lemons. As a matter of fact, you need to direct your anger over to the contractors forum, as it's their fault for illegally employing these illegals in the first place, ain't it?

Point is, you crying about it and making an asshat out of yourself on a public forum isn't going to make lemonade. Take from that what you will.

Listen, I am going to quit cuttin' you down, that's not what I'm here for. But I will say this, I'd like to see you come out from behind the safety of your little keyboard and voice your opinions on the jobsite. Think about it real hard, that's right, never gonna happen. :thumbsup:


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

Junior????????????

Wow thanks for making me fell young again,just how the hell do you know how old or young I am anyway...MORON!!!!People like you PISS ME OFF.If you love them so much by thier taxes.

Mexicians are here ILEGALLY and are breaking the law and bankrupting our country END OF STORY!!!!!!

I have voiced my opinion numerous times on jobsies so go  yourself !! I really think that we have a different breed of illegals on the east coast.

I have even blown up a radio by sending 220 to it because they wouldn't turn down or off their spanish music.

Your the one who started attacking others on here hiding behind your keyboard. You took this thread off the topic.You not supposed to attack or fight on here either so drop it and get back on topic.Here I will start and give it a push back in towards electrical issues.

I have seen the low ballers who used illegal workers start to go under,one just did last month now I am starting a nice job Jan 2 that he had bid.I had a hellva time getting what I wanted because he had bid it so low.GC tried to get me to use his numbers.Is anyone else having this problem?


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## spoon (Dec 9, 2008)

robnj772 said:


> Junior????????????
> 
> Wow thanks for making me *fell *young *again,just* how the hell do you know how old or young I am anyway...*MORON!!!!* If you love them so much *by* thier taxes.


If I were to guess by using your bad grammar and your gross misuse of punctuation as a clue, I'd say I'm not too far off calling you 'junior'. But actually, It's called 'sarcasm'. I really don't know how old you are. A genius you are not.



robnj772 said:


> Mexicians are here ILEGALLY and are breaking the law and bankrupting our country END OF STORY!!!!!!


Here goes another comment from you, saturated with ignorance. Has it ever occurred to you that some (not all) happen to have green cards, or at least are very well on their way to getting one? Oh and has it ever occurred to you that they're not all Mexicans? In fact, some people immigrate here from places like Honduras, China, Russia, India, Bolivia and El Salvador.... yeah _'for reals'_. I think we all know the answer to that... nothing ever occurs to you. 



robnj772 said:


> go  yourself !!


Showing tell tale signs of higher intelligence I see? As human beings, we are genetically predisposed to NOT follow the stupid person, unless of course we are stupid ourselves. Look it up in the encyclopedia pal, it's true. I'm going to give you a chance to edit this one. I seriously hope, for our futures sake, there are less and less of you as the years go on.



robnj772 said:


> I have even blown up a radio by sending 220 to it because they wouldn't turn down or off their spanish music.


You couldn't ask the guy, you had to go rig up some 220v to blow up the poor guys radio? You coulda' just went over and turned it down yourself, and when they looked at you, say "thank you". Yes, no? You have issues brah, and you'd be off my jobsite quicker than you can say 'anbesol' if I ever caught you wasting my time doing something like this. If you aren't part of the solution, you're part of the problem, junior. :yes:

I can defend the good guys all day long pal. Try me. You and I both agree that illegals are a huge problem here in our country. Why can't they just do it the right way like the rest of OUR ancestors did? I wish they'd all get thrown out too, just like you do. _"Boo frickin' hoo"_... crying about isn't going to fix anything. Why don't you go vote or something? I only have a problem with your ignorant comments. They're not all Mexicans, and not all Mexicans are illegal. But who am I to expect you to know any better?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

OK, I've had about enough of the name-calling.

How about we get back to electrical issues?


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

robnj772 said:


> Your the one who started attacking others on here hiding behind your keyboard. You took this thread off the topic.You not supposed to attack or fight on here either so drop it and get back on topic.Here I will start and give it a push back in towards electrical issues.
> 
> I have seen the low ballers who used illegal workers start to go under,one just did last month now I am starting a nice job Jan 2 that he had bid.I had a hellva time getting what I wanted because he had bid it so low.GC tried to get me to use his numbers.Is anyone else having this problem?


I find it revolting that you got this spun up about defending mexicians
I feel sorry for you,you must have some serious issues.

Do you even know what the OP of this thread said?

As you can see by reading the rules on this forum your not supposed to attack or fight with people on this forum.I think you need to go find a hobby or a forum dedicated to political/immigration issues instead of electrical work.

Resond back to my comments all you want I am gonna take the high road,say a prayer for you and ignore any futher attacks on me or other people on here that do not agree with your feelings towards mexicans.


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## spoon (Dec 9, 2008)

Mountain Electrician said:


> spoon said:
> 
> 
> > I bet if he took some time, and sat down to have some lunch with a couple of those "non-tax-paying" Mexicans, he'd probably learn how many years they've been in the country, that they have a family, that they're remodeling their house, that they have a night job, that they're going to school, that they play recreational sports on the weekends, that they coach little league baseball, that they don't get along with their in-laws, that their kid just got suspended from school for cussing at the teacher, who they voted for and why...stuff like that. You'd be surprised at how much like us 'they' really are.
> ...


This would be everyone's experience so long as they kept and open mind, and took their hands out from in front of their faces. Some people limit themselves, and I don't feel sorry for them. :no:


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## spoon (Dec 9, 2008)

robnj772 said:


> I find it revolting that you got this spun up about defending *mexicians*


(A light hearted joke from me) Is that your term for Mexican electricians? Mexicians? I'm actually gonna use that today. 



robnj772 said:


> Do you even know what the OP of this thread said?


Yes. Refer back to post #'s 96 and 99, page 5. Then you came along and said _"screw that"_. Remember?




robnj772 said:


> Resond back to my comments all you want I am gonna take the high road,say a prayer for you and ignore any futher attacks on me or other people on here that do not agree with your feelings towards mexicans.


You call rigging up 220v into someone's jobsite radio taking the high-road? You just told me to "" myself a few hours ago... that the high-road too? Again, you ain't fooling anyone here.  



To stay on topic, not all these guys are Mexicans. Some are Filipino. Some are El Salvadorian. Some are from Spain even! A lot of them pay their taxes and a lot of them speak some sort of English, however little that may be. They might not be the English scholars we want for them to be, but they try hard. Yes, there are a ton of them who are here illegally, and I personally am not mad at them. I am more fired up at the contractors who choose to employ these illegals. They are the greedy ones, and they are the guys who you should be mad at, not the immigrants themselves. Open your eyes bud.


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## JRent (Jul 1, 2008)

robnj772 said:


> I find it revolting that you got this spun up about defending mexicians
> I feel sorry for you,you must have some serious issues.
> 
> Do you even know what the OP of this thread said?
> ...


:no:You need to find a forum on political and immigration issues, Spoon us just responding to your comments!


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## 5volts (Jan 11, 2008)

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *robnj772*
> _Junior????????????_
> 
> ...


:thumbsup: 



> I'd like to see you come out from behind the safety of your little keyboard


"Internet gangsters"



> *Resond back to my comments all you want I am gonna take the high road,say a prayer for you and ignore any futher attacks* on me or other people on here that do not agree with your feelings towards mexicans.


LOL :laughing:



> 480sparky OK, I've had about enough of the name-calling.
> 
> How about we get back to electrical issues?


Yeah, lets get back to the electrical issue now? what electrical issue? I don't remember one?



> *Ok this i know is not a electrical problem, but it a real problem why is it when you go to a job site or drive by it all you see is Mexicans*


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## spoon (Dec 9, 2008)

Out of curiosity... where'd Stan "Mason-Dixon" go anyway?


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

spoon said:


> Out of curiosity... where'd Stan "Mason-Dixon" go anyway?


 
Maybe he is just busy at work.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

spoon said:


> Out of curiosity... where'd Stan "Mason-Dixon" go anyway?


 
Could it be the pro illegal mexican ass kissing made him leave?


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> Mexicians are here ILEGALLY and are breaking the law and bankrupting our country END OF STORY!!!!!!


 
How many of you have ever done a cash side job?

*****everyone raisses their hands*****


How many of you claimed it as income? 

*****crickets chirping*****



Careful where you cast those stones guys. *Pure luck* is the ONLY reason we are among the fortunate and privileged people of the world. Our parents had sex and we were born here. No hoops to jump thru, just pure dumb luck.

All I suggest is that you count your blessings and think for a moment what *you *might do if you were unlucky enough to be born in Guatemala. 

90% of the illegals I have worked along side of were hard working men and THAT is something I respect.


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## BryanMD (Dec 31, 2007)

Which brings us back to where this thread started:

To grasp American immigration policy, to the extent that it can be grasped, one need only remember that the United States forbids smoking while subsidizing tobacco growers. 

We say to impoverished Mexicans, “See this river? Don’t cross it. If you do, we’ll give you good jobs, a drivers license, citizenship for your kids born here and eventually for you, school for said kids, public assistance, governmental documents in Spanish for your convenience, and a much better future. There is no penalty for getting caught. Now, _don’t cross this river_, hear?”

How smart is that? We’re baiting them. It’s like putting out a salt lick and then complaining when deer come. As parents, the immigrants would be irresponsible not to cross.

The problem of immigration, note, is entirely self-inflicted. The US chose to let them in. It didn’t have to. They came to work. If Americans hadn’t hired them, they would have gone back. 

We have immigration because we want immigration. 

Fred Reed 
here is the rest (and more): http://www.fredoneverything.net/TacImmigration.shtml


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> As parents, the immigrants would be irresponsible not to cross.


SOMEbody gets it :thumbsup:



The problem isn't the immigrants, it's the faulty systems we have in place.

Don't hate the Jugador, hate the game :laughing:


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Could it be the pro illegal mexican ass kissing made him leave?


Yea I think that is exactly why he left.

I have noticed all of the pro illegal mexican ass kissers are from the west coast.I think that they have different mexicans out there.

I wounder if they would be kissing any East coast illegal mexican's ass.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

I'm not pro illegal, I am anti idiot.

If you *try*, you can discuss difficult issues.

Present your point and simply discuss it along other points of view. 

Don't forget the second part. If you refuse to acknowledge other points of view, you lose all credibility. You alone do not run the world. It's a team sport.


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

220/221 said:


> How many of you have ever done a cash side job?
> 
> *****everyone raisses their hands*****
> 
> ...


i'm not here by pure luck...i'm here because my mom followed the law and moved here as a legal immigrant, who is now a US citizen...


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## 5volts (Jan 11, 2008)

robnj772 said:


> Yea I think that is exactly why he left.
> 
> I have noticed all of the pro illegal mexican ass kissers are from the *west coast*.I think that they have different mexicans out there.
> 
> I wounder if they would be kissing any East coast illegal mexican's ass.


I'm with 220/221, "I'm not pro illegal, I am anti idiot". Seems like most of you idiots come from New Jersey. "So put the fork down fatty", and pay attention to what spoon said, when he pulled your hoe card.



> Here goes another comment from you, saturated with ignorance. Has it ever occurred to you that some (not all) happen to have green cards, or at least are very well on their way to getting one? Oh and has it ever occurred to you that they're not all Mexicans? In fact, some people immigrate here from places like Honduras, China, Russia, India, Bolivia and El Salvador.... yeah _'for reals'_. I think we all know the answer to that... nothing ever occurs to you


 


> *Resond back to my comments all you want I am gonna take the high road,say a prayer for you and ignore any futher attacks*


Now go say a prayer for me and the rest of the "West Coast".


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

p_logix said:


> I'm with 220/221, "I'm not pro illegal, I am anti idiot". Seems like most of you idiots come from New Jersey. "So put the fork down fatty", and pay attention to what spoon said, when he pulled your hoe card.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
I'm still waiting for Cali to break off and fall into the sea the way they promised years ago.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> i'm not here by pure luck


Sure you are. 

You had *zero* control over where you were born. You, just like me, are lucky, plain and simple. If you were born into poverty and squalor you would A) roll over and die or B) do whatever you could to get you and your family out.


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## 5volts (Jan 11, 2008)

randomkiller said:


> I'm still waiting for Cali to break off and fall into the sea the way they promised years ago.


You're right it will probably will happen but not for a million years. I seriously doubt you will live that long. Just like If New Jersey got wiped off the face of the earth by a tsunami, I would not have to drive the 90 minutes to the shore, it would be just minutes away! These are acts of nature that are beyond our control. To conclude who gives a rats ass? 

But you acting like an idiot it is simply by choice.


----------



## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

220/221 said:


> Sure you are.
> 
> You had *zero* control over where you were born. You, just like me, are lucky, plain and simple. If you were born into poverty and squalor you would A) roll over and die or B) do whatever you could to get you and your family out.


ok...so you choose to dismiss the entire legal/illegal thing......

laws, whether you agree with them or not, are what keep us civil...i can make way more money for my family by being a drug kingpin than an electrician...should i not be held accountable for violating the law because i'm just trying to create a better life for my family?

at what point do you personally draw the line for violating the law? border jumping? seatbelt? shoplifting? assault? drug dealing? armed robbery? attempted murder? murder? 

what laws are ok to break?


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

oldman said:


> ok...so you choose to dismiss the entire legal/illegal thing......
> 
> laws, whether you agree with them or not, are what keep us civil...i can make way more money for my family by being a drug kingpin than an electrician...should i not be held accountable for violating the law because i'm just trying to create a better life for my family?
> 
> ...


EXACTLY!!!!!:notworthy::notworthy::notworthy:

Thats the whole point what they are doing is illegal,besides draing our economy because they don't pay taxes.PLUS they don't even have the dignity to learn how to speak english.

And for the clown who posted the mexican flag,If your so proud of mexico and if its so great why did you leave? And if your gonna post the mexican flag this is the USA so by law the AMERICAN FLAG is supposed to be above it,oh wait you think its ok to break laws so why should you follow that one to.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

randomkiller said:


> I'm still waiting for Cali to break off and fall into the sea the way they promised years ago.


I agree, I get so tired of hearing what they banned as being a carcinogen or other things that they feel they are so much ahead of the east coast on. I wouldn't miss it if it fell into the sea. It isn't like they have any good football teams there or much else worth while. Good bye mexifornia. I guess this means logix will add me to his list of idiots, I will value that just as much as any other list that comes from LA.


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

I got into the thread by defending them when you guys wanted to shoot them....I AM SORRY....


Lock and Load :2guns:


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

robnj772 said:


> I got into the thread by defending them when you guys wanted to shoot them....I AM SORRY....
> 
> 
> Lock and Load :2guns:


 
It's cool, it's force of habit. You see I have years of the "shoot em as they hit the wire" trained in.:thumbsup:

P.S. Screw california


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> so you choose to dismiss the entire legal/illegal thing


See post #114

We are all criminals to some degree.

If I remember my history, our founding fathers were serious criminals.

Edit..........No links allowed here??? Add *http* at the beginning and have fun.

://stuff.ubersite.com/1146526457517112030/1/wp_game_border_patrol.swf


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

A link should work. :001_huh:

http://www.electriciantalk.com/f2/construction-trade-4598/index7/#post50018


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

220/221 said:


> See post #114
> 
> We are all criminals to some degree.
> 
> If I remember my history, our founding fathers were serious criminals.


Pretty much I have stated my opinion on this subject, Aliens are here because the work is (or was ) here. If we wanted to stop this we as a collective country of supposedly law abiding folks would have. BUT Congress and the President do not want to address the issue for fear of alienating the pro ILLEGALS voters.

Aliens should be welcomed illegals, well the employers should be slapped hard with fines, and the illegals deported. Do it legally, do it right.


BUT if you start this liberal puke argument that your fore fathers were illgal and law breakers, you lose me. What happened in the past is HISTORY and while I am a major history buff, I can not see blaming this generation on what has happened in the past or we will fine the American Indians for defacing public parks with their drawings.

AS for being American by luck CRAP, your ancestors decided to take a perilous journey for many reasons, hoping to have a better life for themselves and future generations, many died or suffered greatly on this trip. You should be thankful for their sacrifice, not crying in you milk over the possible atrocities some supposed their ancestors may have committed. Luck had nothing to do with it (other than they lived to foster future generations while many perished).


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

brian john said:


> AS for being American by luck CRAP, your ancestors decided to take a perilous journey for many reasons, hoping to have a better life for themselves and future generations, many died or suffered greatly on this trip. You should be thankful for their sacrifice, not crying in you milk over the possible atrocities some supposed their ancestors may have committed. Luck had nothing to do with it (other than they lived to foster future generations while many perished).


 
Well stated Brian. Our ancestors came here to work hard and make something for themselves without any handouts. They didn't come here to live off social programs, or breed like rabbits to assure their children get free medical and SSI.


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## spoon (Dec 9, 2008)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Could it be the pro illegal mexican ass kissing made him leave?


Show me exactly where you saw 'pro illegal Mexican ass kissing', or it didn't happen. Talking out of your ass does nothing but let people know you are talking out of your ass.



robnj772 said:


> I have noticed all of the pro illegal mexican ass kissers are from the west coast.I think that they have different mexicans out there.
> 
> I wounder if they would be kissing any East coast illegal mexican's ass.


Arguing with you is like playing cards with my brothers' kids. Yeah, you're an idiot and we had that established long ago. You continuing to type, just confirms all of our suspicions.



randomkiller said:


> I'm still waiting for Cali to break off and fall into the sea the way they promised years ago.


Hate saturated comments... way to contribute to a thread. :thumbsup:



robnj772 said:


> Thats the whole point what *they are doing is illegal*,besides draing our economy because *they don't pay taxes*.PLUS *they don't even have the dignity to learn how to speak english.*


Are you still here? I hope you finally realized the difference between 'ILLEGAL ALIENS' and 'all Mexicans'... have you? Who do you mean by 'they'? Don't worry, you can answer.



MechanicalDVR said:


> they they they I wouldn't miss it if it fell into the sea. It isn't like they have any good football teams there or much else worth while. Good bye mexifornia.


Showing you're level of intelligence I see. Judging by your recent postings, I am surprised at how low it actually is.



MechanicalDVR said:


> Screw california














MechanicalDVR said:


> They didn't come here to live off social programs, or breed like rabbits to assure their children get free medical and SSI.


Okay, Einstein. If 'they' are as 'illegal' as you say, well then how on Earth can they possibly get free medical care and draw social security? If you were NOT an idiot, you'd know that you have to PAY into social security in order to DRAW social security. In order to PAY into social security, you have to POSSESS a social security number. 

Now, what do we call people who possess social security numbers? :001_unsure:


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

HEY SPOON, NEWS FLASH!!! children born here are able to get SSI numbers and illegals can get medical treatment at hospitals. It is that free medical that is bankrupting hospitals all over this country you dumbass. Oh, by the way is your avatar the girl scouts special forces insignia? Just curious. 
P.S. read the posts on this thread and you will see pro illegal ass kissing, or just read your posts on the thread as a matter of fact. Don't wear out your knee pads.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

220/221 said:


> See post #114
> 
> We are all criminals to some degree.
> 
> ...


 
Thanks for the game link, I love seeing the blood spatter.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Guys, I am leaving this open so you can all get this out of your systems. 

I do not want to close every thread that goes off topic or get's a little heated. Let's just keep it civil.
Spoon, your last post laced with insults and name calling is pretty childish.

Let's keep this thread on an adult level, OK?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Oh. Sorry. Excuse me.

I thought this was an electrical forum.

My bad.

Carry on.


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## spoon (Dec 9, 2008)

Speedy Petey said:


> Guys, I am leaving this open so you can all get this out of your systems.
> 
> I do not want to close every thread that goes off topic or get's a little heated. Let's just keep it civil.
> Spoon, your last post laced with insults and name calling is pretty childish.
> ...


Sorry about that. I appreciate you understanding that sometimes things get out of hand. I choose to sling clever insults, rather than telling others to " themselves". I hope the feeling you have about my comments, is spread out among others.


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## spoon (Dec 9, 2008)

MechanicalDVR said:


> HEY SPOON, NEWS FLASH!!! children born here are able to get SSI numbers and illegals can get medical treatment at hospitals. It is that free medical that is bankrupting hospitals all over this country you dumbass. Oh, by the way is your avatar the girl scouts special forces insignia? Just curious.
> P.S. read the posts on this thread and you will see pro illegal ass kissing, or just read your posts on the thread as a matter of fact. Don't wear out your knee pads.


'They' don't get FREE medical care, *I wish I did*, but no one does no matter what you 'think'. My local hospital is FAR from being bankrupt. Hospitals are in it just like any other business, to make money. My local hospital is making plenty of it.

Nice jab on my avatar too, it's of the 25th Infantry division, with whom I was deployed overseas back between 1998-2002. You obviously have yet to serve your country. Speaking out of your ass is just one of the liberties you seem to enjoy as a citizen of the United States. Way to go.

"They took our jobs!"


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> your ancestors decided to take a perilous journey for many reasons, hoping to have a better life for themselves and future generations, many died or suffered greatly on this trip.


Sounds an awful lot like the plight of the people trying to get into this country today......doesn't it?





> You should be thankful for their sacrifice, not crying in you milk over the possible atrocities some supposed their ancestors may have committed.


 
Crying in my milk? Quote please. All I am doing is offering a different perspective. I simply pointed out that no one is without "sin".



> Luck had nothing to do with it


Luck has EVERYTHING to do with it. You and I were lucky to have been born here. It was not our call. We had nothing to do with it.


Petey, most everyone has resorted to name calling so IMO, no one should be singled out.

I believe that people should be able to discuss controversial issues. I truly believe that, given enough time, threads like this will lead to a better understanding on both sides. I'm not suggesting that anyone will change sides in the debate, merely lean to see things from anothers perspective.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

220/221 said:


> I believe that people should be able to discuss controversial issues. I truly believe that, given enough time, threads like this will lead to a better understanding on both sides. I'm not suggesting that anyone will change sides in the debate, merely lean to see things from anothers perspective.


I agree. And I also agree that I should not have singled anyone out. That was just the latest post and I did not read back to the previous pages to find others. Sorry Spoon

This site is the best because we all are here for the same reason and we can usually tolerate each other quite well.


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## waco (Dec 10, 2007)

"Some of us here have taken a stand in their past and had to defend their position,my turn was a small airport compound in Beirut fall of 1983."

So, you're used to standing on the necks of others to get ahead. Let me know when Iraq was ever a threat to the United States.


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

waco said:


> So, you're used to standing on the necks of others to get ahead. Let me know when Iraq was ever a threat to the United States.


Have you ever been in Iraq?????

Yea thats what I thought

Unless you have been there,don't be talking crap like that because Iraq was a threat to the US and will be again if Obama Bin Laden pulls the troops out before the job is 110% done.

Alot of that crap you see on TV about the Iraq war is liberal media spun to make the current President look bad.

But the Iraq war has nothing to do with illegal mexicans doing electrical work so I dunno why you even brought it up.


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

spoon said:


> 'They' don't get FREE medical care, *I wish I did*, but no one does no matter what you 'think'. My local hospital is FAR from being bankrupt. Hospitals are in it just like any other business, to make money. My local hospital is making plenty of it.
> 
> Nice jab on my avatar too, it's of the 25th Infantry division, with whom I was deployed overseas back between 1998-2002. You obviously have yet to serve your country. Speaking out of your ass is just one of the liberties you seem to enjoy as a citizen of the United States. Way to go.


Yes hospitals aren't allowed to turn people away,thats why the mexicans keep spitting out kids.Its call charity care.The local hospital here just laid off 11 people beacuse the goverment just stoped paying the hospitals back for it now they have to lay people off. Juan was able to have his twelth kid for free but the hospital had to layoff my sister-in-law,merry christmas Americian taxpayer.

So you were overseas 1998-2002 oh WOW!!! 
Big time war hero.

You age explains alot now

Maybe we should all post our DD-214's on here and have a contest.

I am sure you would lose JUNIOR.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> Let me know when Iraq was ever a threat to the United States.


I'll take this one. How about August, 1990?

When a country inavades another country in an important region like the Middle East, it's a threat to the US. It's not unlike the invasion of Poland in 1939.



> Unless you have been there,don't be talking crap like that because Iraq was a threat to the US and will be again if Obama Bin Laden pulls the troops out before the job is 110% done.


1) You can only do a job to 100%. The job in Iraq would be a huge sucess if we got to 60%
2) The terrorist link didn't work for the Republicans so _maybe_ you should give it up and see what happens.



> Alot of that crap you see on TV about the Iraq war is liberal media spun to make the current President look bad


Most of the things we see are spun in every different direction. It *is* hard as hell to sift thru the crap and determine what the hell is going on but we *must* attempt it.


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## spoon (Dec 9, 2008)

robnj772 said:


> Yes hospitals aren't allowed to turn people away,thats why the mexicans keep spitting out kids.Its call charity care.


Wrong again. Hospitals CAN turn people away, unless the lack of treatment will result in death. If they do get treatment, they are required to pay regardless of their immigration status. Thanks for playing, Einstein. :thumbsup:



robnj772 said:


> The local hospital here just laid off 11 people beacuse the goverment just stoped paying the hospitals back for it now they have to lay people off. Juan was able to have his twelth kid for free but the hospital had to layoff my sister-in-law,merry christmas Americian taxpayer.


About the hospitals, you are wrong, *again*. We have three local hospitals in my area, only one of them is run by the government. The other two are private, and do NOT rely on the government to pay them anything. You continue making blanket generalizations about topics which you lack knowledge of. And I have no problem settin' you straight on 'em, son. Don't blame you're sister-in-laws inability to hold employment on me, people like me, or the government. And certainly don't put the blame on poor Juan over there, you don't know if he pays taxes or not. You haven't even asked him. Hmm, I'd like to see that actually.

Yeah, that's gonna happen. :whistling2:


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

Actually that was when Iraq went into Kuwait,We went in in January 1991. I was a gunner on a M1a1 Abrahms tank on active duty.

Then we went back in March of 2003.I was a tank commander on an M1a2 Abrahms tank on reserve duty(voluntarily).

After that I got out of the reserves,kinda hard to run a business from Iraq and after being there twice that was 2 times too many.

We should have turned it into a parking lot the first time.If it weren't for all the bleeding hearted liberals like the Senator from California we may have done that the second time.

It still doesn't have anything to do with Mexicans doing electrical work though.


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## spoon (Dec 9, 2008)

220/221 said:


> Petey, most everyone has resorted to name calling so IMO, no one should be singled out.
> 
> I believe that people should be able to discuss controversial issues. I truly believe that, given enough time, threads like this will lead to a better understanding on both sides. I'm not suggesting that anyone will change sides in the debate, merely learn to see things from anothers perspective.


This is what I am taking from it. Some of us are more exposed to things like, '*racial diversity*', than other people, and it's not fair for me to assume that the person on the other side of my computer screen has the same amount of exposure to issues like that. And it definitely isn't fair for me to hold it against them. Some folks are just wandering through the world with their one-way goggles on, and that's perfectly fine for them I guess. But I try and try to give these particular people a different perspective on views like this, in hopes of possibly opening their eyes and broadening their visions of today's world.

But, like the old saying goes, you can't win 'em all. 



Speedy Petey said:


> I agree. And I also agree that I should not have singled anyone out. That was just the latest post and I did not read back to the previous pages to find others. Sorry Spoon
> 
> This site is the best because we all are here for the same reason and we can usually tolerate each other quite well.


Hey Petey it's all gravy. Name-calling is juvenile and should not be tolerated, whether provoked or not. It's a sign of lower intelligence (so my pappy used to tell me) and I haven't done myself any favors by allowing that part of me to rear its ugly head. 


A lot of these emotions get bottled up inside. Online communities such as this one, provide an outlet for anti-immigration extremists to voice (force) their unwelcomed opinions on other people. This is obviously where my opinions against people like that are voiced as well, and I'm thankful to you and the other moderators for allowing it. I enjoy the debates just as much as the next guy, but it's the restraint and class that must be displayed in our posts, not just swear words and capital letters, in order to effectively get our messages across. Thanks again! :thumbup:


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## BryanMD (Dec 31, 2007)

spoon said:


> A lot of these emotions get bottled up inside. Online communities such as this one, provide an outlet for *anti-immigration *extremists to voice (force) their unwelcomed opinions on other people.


Just so you are clear and everyone else as well... I'm not aware of anyone on this thread dissing immigration; even those who (I'll assert) may have mis-characterized their views in syntax errors along the way.

What I have heard consistently though... is a serious objection to *illegal* attempts at establishing an immigration contrary to the normal channels of visa's and similar entry permits. (border jumping)

That our (all of our) governments' policies in these matters are insane and that the actual codified laws are counter to a rational and orderly process of legal immigration is called "irony". And the blame for that continued status belongs to just about everyone who is touched by the problem.


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## JRent (Jul 1, 2008)

MechanicalDVR said:


> It's cool, it's force of habit. You see I have years of the "shoot em as they hit the wire" trained in.:thumbsup:
> 
> *P.S. Screw california*





MechanicalDVR said:


> HEY SPOON, NEWS FLASH!!! children born here are able to get SSI numbers and illegals can get medical treatment at hospitals. It is that free medical that is bankrupting hospitals all over this country you dumbass. *Oh, by the way is your avatar the girl scouts special forces insignia? Just curious. *
> P.S. read the posts on this thread and you will see pro illegal ass kissing, or just read your posts on the thread as a matter of fact. Don't wear out your knee pads.


MechanicalDVR you are on a roll, with the ignorant comments,:thumbsup: You vets are always so proud, and yet you manage to put down a fellow soldier:no:. *WOW!* This thread is getting interesting, keep it up...


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> We should have turned it into a parking lot the first time


I don't _quite_ agree because there were/are millions of innocents there..... but I share the sentiment. You can blame whoever you choose but the *commander in chief* at the time was the one that made the call.


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

spoon said:


> This is what I am taking from it. Some of us are more exposed to things like, '*racial diversity*', than other people, and it's not fair for me to assume that the person on the other side of my computer screen has the same amount of exposure to issues like that. And it definitely isn't fair for me to hold it against them. Some folks are just wandering through the world with their one-way goggles on, and that's perfectly fine for them I guess. But I try and try to give these particular people a different perspective on views like this, in hopes of possibly opening their eyes and broadening their visions of today's world.
> 
> But, like the old saying goes, you can't win 'em all.
> 
> ...


hey, hold still, you're halo is falling off...


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## 5volts (Jan 11, 2008)

robnj772 said:


> And for the clown who posted the mexican flag,If your so proud of mexico and if its so great why did you leave? And if your gonna post the mexican flag this is the USA so by law the AMERICAN FLAG is supposed to be above it,oh wait you think its ok to break laws so why should you follow that one to.


OMG, you felt so threatened by that didn't you. You like many others think Mexicans are secretly planning to take over. Do you also feel that way when someone starts waving the Israeli flag or the Irish flag, or the Italian flag? I bet you don't consider that they may have something up their sleeve. As far as posting the flag why don't you call the mayor of Los Angeles *Antonio Villaraigosa* and tell him that p_logix put a picture on the internet to get under your skin. You're to easy.

Si se puede!:laughing: 



> _Originally Posted by *MechanicalDVR*  _
> _P.S. *Screw* california_
> _It's cool, *it's force of habit*. You see I have years of the "*shoot em* as they hit the wire" trained in._


Dude, you need to really lay off the "tomato pies," the blood pressure is rising:thumbdown:

Basketball would be better in Jersey if they got rid of the Nets!


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

p_logix said:


> Si se puede!:laughing:
> 
> 
> 
> Dude, you need to really lay off the "tomato pies," the blood pressure is rising:thumbdown:


 
I should eat burritos instead and just worry about diarrhea?


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

spoon said:


> Wrong again. Hospitals CAN turn people away, unless the lack of treatment will result in death. If they do get treatment, they are required to pay regardless of their immigration status. Thanks for playing, Einstein. :thumbsup:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Maybe you should stop making blanket statements, hospitals in NJ do have charity care and can't turn people away. There was one named St. James in Newark, it closed due to too much charity care and not enough billables.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

waco said:


> "Some of us here have taken a stand in their past and had to defend their position,my turn was a small airport compound in Beirut fall of 1983."
> 
> So, you're used to standing on the necks of others to get ahead. Let me know when Iraq was ever a threat to the United States.


 
I have no idea where you get Iraq from Beirut (Lebanon).
You know Beirut, where over 270 Marines were killed in Oct 1983?


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

spoon said:


> 'They' don't get FREE medical care, *I wish I did*, but no one does no matter what you 'think'. My local hospital is FAR from being bankrupt. Hospitals are in it just like any other business, to make money. My local hospital is making plenty of it.
> Get a clue.
> Nice jab on my avatar too, it's of the 25th Infantry division, with whom I was deployed overseas back between 1998-2002. You obviously have yet to serve your country. Speaking out of your ass is just one of the liberties you seem to enjoy as a citizen of the United States. Way to go.


Yet to serve, I was active duty June 77- Nov 86. Most of that time shipboard with the 22nd and 24th MEU SOC as a 0321. I came home as a disabled vet sonny. Wanna polish my boots boy? And yeah it looks like a girl scout patch to me.

Has anything worth while ever come out of mexifornia?


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Just for spoon, who needs to be spoon fed:

*New Jersey Hospital Care Payment Assistance Program Fact Sheet *

PDF Version of this document [99k]
[Español - pdf 100k]​*WHAT IS THE HOSPITAL CARE PAYMENT ASSISTANCE PROGRAM?*
The New Jersey Hospital Care Payment Assistance Program (Charity Care Assistance) is free or reduced charge care which is provided to patients who receive inpatient and outpatient services at acute care hospitals throughout the State of New Jersey. 
Hospital assistance and reduced charge care are available only for necessary hospital care. 
Some services such as physician fees, anesthesiology fees, radiology interpretation, and outpatient prescriptions are separate from hospital charges and may not be eligible for reduction. 
*WHERE DOES FUNDING FOR HOSPITAL CARE PAYMENT ASSISTANCE COME FROM? *
The source of funding for hospital care payment assistance is through the Health Care Subsidy Fund administered under Public Law 1997, Chapter 263. 

*WHO IS ELIGIBLE FOR HOSPITAL CARE PAYMENT ASSISTANCE?* Hospital care payment assistance is available to New Jersey residents who:

Have no health coverage or have coverage that pays only for part of the bill: and 
Are ineligible for any private or governmental sponsored coverage (such as Medicaid); and 
Meet both the income and assets eligibility criteria listed below.
Hospital assistance is also available to non-New Jersey residents, subject to specific provisions.
*Income Criteria​*Income as a Percentage of HHS Poverty Income Guidelines 
Percentage of Charge
Paid by Patient​less than or equal to 200%​0%​greater than 200% but less than or equal to 225%​20%​greater than 225% but less than or equal to 250%​40%​greater than 250% but less than or equal to 275%​60%​greater than 275% but less than or equal to 300%​80%​greater than 300%​100%​If patients on the 20% to 80% sliding fee scale are responsible for qualified out-of-pocket paid medical expenses in excess of 30% of their gross annual income (i.e. bills unpaid by other parties), then the amount in excess of 30% is considered hospital care payment assistance. 
Assets Criteria​Individual assets cannot exceed $7,500 and family assets cannot exceed $15,000. 
Should an applicant’s assets exceed these limits, he/she may “spend down” the assets to the eligible limits through payment of the excess toward the hospital bill and other approved out-of-pocket medical expenses.
*HOW ARE INDIVIDUALS MADE AWARE OF THE AVAILABILITY OF HOSPITAL CARE PAYMENT ASSISTANCE?*​Hospitals post signs in English, Spanish and any language which is spoken by 10% or more of the population in the hospital’s service area. These signs are posted in appropriate areas of the facility such as the admissions area, the business office, outpatient clinic areas, and the emergency room. The sign informs patients of the availability of hospital assistance and reduced charge care, gives a brief description of the eligibility criteria, and directs the patient to the business office or admissions office of the hospital. Every patient should receive a written notice of the availability of hospital care payment assistance and medical assistance.
*WHAT ARE THE SCREENING PROCEDURES FOR THIRD PARTY PAYERS AND MEDICAID?*
All charity care applicants must be screened to determine the potential eligibility for any third party insurance benefits or medical assistance programs that might pay towards the hospital bill. 
Patients may not be eligible for the hospital care payment assistance program until they are determined to be ineligible for any other medical assistance programs.
Patients are responsible to obtain a financial screening from the hospital in a timely manner. Usually, a patient must apply for Medicaid within 3 months from the date of hospital services.
Once the hospital has informed the patient about medical assistance and/or makes the referral properly, if the patient fails to cooperate or does not go for screening in a timely manner, the hospital has the option to bill the patient and pursue collection efforts, regardless of eligibility for hospital care payment assistance. 
*HOW DOES SOMEONE APPLY FOR HOSPITAL CARE PAYMENT ASSISTANCE?*
The patient or prospective patient must apply for hospital care payment assistance at the hospital from which he/she plans to obtain or has obtained services. The patient should apply at the business office or admissions office of the hospital. 
The patient or responsible party must answer questions related to his/her income and assets, as well as provide documentation of the income and assets. The hospital will make a determination of whether the applicant is eligible as soon as possible, but no more than ten working days from the time a complete application is submitted. If the request does not include adequate documentation to make a determination, the request shall be denied. The applicant will then be allowed to present additional documentation to the hospital. 
The applicant has up to one year from the date of service to apply for hospital assistance and provide the hospital with a completed application. Applicants found ineligible may reapply at a future time when they present themselves for services and believe their financial circumstances have changed. 
The Department of Health and Senior Services has a toll-free number to assist with any questions or concerns. 
Please call the Health Care for the Uninsured Program during business hours at 1-866-588-5696 or contact us via email.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

*Cost of illegal immigration in California estimated at nearly $9 billion*



By: EDWARD SIFUENTES - Staff Writer | Sunday, December 5, 2004 9:22 PM PST ∞








California's nearly 3 million illegal immigrants cost taxpayers nearly $9 billion each year, according to a new report released last week by the Federation for American Immigration Reform, a Washington, D.C.-based group that promotes stricter immigration policies.

Educating the children of illegal immigrants is the largest cost, estimated at $7.7 billion each year, according to the report. Medical care for illegal immigrants and incarceration of those who have committed crimes are the next two largest expenses measured in the study, the author said.

Pro-immigrant groups and Latino researchers dispute the federation's findings, calling them biased and incomplete.

Jack Martin, who wrote the report, said Thursday that the $9 billion figure does not include other expenses that are difficult to measure, such as special English instruction, school lunch programs, and welfare benefits for American workers displaced by illegal immigrant workers.

"It's a bottom of the range number," Martin said.

The federation is one of the nation's leading lobbying groups aimed at curbing immigration into the country.

Authors of the report say it culls information from the U.S. Census and other studies addressing the cost of illegal immigration into the country to draw its conclusions.

Gerardo Gonzalez, director of Cal State San Marcos' National Latino Research Center, which compiles data on Latinos, criticized the report. He said it does not measure some of the contributions that immigrants make to the state's economy.

"Beyond taxes, these workers' production and spending contribute to California's economy, especially the agricultural sector," Gonzalez said.

Immigrants, both legal and illegal, are the backbone of the state's nearly $28 billion-a-year agricultural industry, Gonzalez and other researchers say.

More than two-thirds of the estimated 340,000 agriculture workers in California are noncitizens, most of whom are believed to be illegal immigrants, according to a 1998 study on farmworkers prepared for the state Legislature.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Spoon do you have any knowledge about health care in your state at all????


As detailed in _Illegal aliens threaten U.S. medical system_ between 1993 and 2003, 60 California hospitals closed because half their services were unpaid. Another 24 California hospitals are on the verge of closure. Both PA and NJ hospitals recently reported that they provided almost $2 billion in free emergency and short term care services, in large part to illegal aliens. Minnesota county commissioners say that the cost of medical care for uninsured immigrants is too high for local governments to bear and they expect a $4.2 billion budget shortfall over the next two years. NC has about $1.4 billion in un-reimbursed hospital expenses annually. The Texas Hospital Association directly spent $393 million treating illegal aliens in 2002. One third of the patients treated by the LA County Health System are illegal aliens and the system is facing a $300 million deficient. In AZ, the Southeast Arizona Medical Center had a $1 billion shortfall and recently filled for bankruptcy.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

spoon said:


> Wrong again. Hospitals CAN turn people away, unless the lack of treatment will result in death. If they do get treatment, they are required to pay regardless of their immigration status. Thanks for playing, Einstein.
> 
> About the hospitals, you are wrong, *again*. We have three local hospitals in my area, only one of them is run by the government. The other two are private, and do NOT rely on the government to pay them anything. You continue making blanket generalizations about topics which you lack knowledge of. And I have no problem settin' you straight on 'em, son. Don't blame you're sister-in-laws inability to hold employment on me, people like me, or the government. And certainly don't put the blame on poor Juan over there, you don't know if he pays taxes or not. You haven't even asked him. Hmm, I'd like to see that actually.
> 
> Yeah, that's gonna happen. :whistling2:


You really don't have a damn clue about the BS you post do you?


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

As reported in the Montery Harold in December 2006 in _Medi-Cal pays for 100,000 births yearly to undocumented immigrants_:
"More than 100,000 undocumented women each year bear children in California with expenses paid by Medi-Cal, according to state reports. Such births and related expenses account for more than $400 million of the nearly $1 billion that the program spends annually on health care for illegal immigrants in California, the Los Angeles Times reported, citing state reports.
California long has been one of the more generous states in offering such benefits to illegal immigrants, covering everything from pregnancy tests to postpartum checkups.
Many illegal immigrants who might otherwise shy away from government services view care associated with childbirth as safe to seek.

But according to spoon "Wrong again. Hospitals CAN turn people away, unless the lack of treatment will result in death. If they do get treatment, they are required to pay regardless of their immigration status. Thanks for playing, Einstein"
I really doubt child birth will result in death.​


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

*Spoon*, why not try shutting your mouth, picking up a newspaper and reading about the stuff going on in your own state, before making erroneous postings about subjects you obviously know nothing about. Maybe you should change your screen name to shovel so you can throw more BS.

P.S. Thanks for playing Einstein !


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

JRent said:


> MechanicalDVR you are on a roll, with the ignorant comments,:thumbsup: You vets are always so proud, and yet you manage to put down a fellow soldier:no:. *WOW!* This thread is getting interesting, keep it up...


 
It's an ignorant comment because I don't personally like a state ?

I am very proud of becoming a Marine and pledging my loyality to the Corps, never said anything about the army. Now the Air Force and Navy are two of the finest taxi services I have ever used. :thumbsup:


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## spoon (Dec 9, 2008)

MechanicalDVR said:


> (broken link) blah blah blah
> 
> But according to spoon "Wrong again. Hospitals CAN turn people away, unless the lack of treatment will result in death. If they do get treatment, they are required to pay regardless of their immigration status. Thanks for playing, Einstein"
> *I really doubt child birth will result in death.*


http://www.dhcs.ca.gov/services/medi-cal/Pages/Medi-CalEligibility.aspx

*IF YOU ARE ENROLLED IN ONE OF THE FOLLOWING PROGRAMS, YOU CAN GET MEDI-CAL:
SSI/SSP
CalWorks (AFDC)
Refugee Assistance
Foster Care or Adoption Assistance Program
In-Home Supportive Services (IHSS)

YOU CAN ALSO GET MEDI-CAL IF YOU ARE:
65 or older
Blind
Disabled
Under 21
Pregnant
In a skilled nursing or intermediate care home
On refugee status for a limited time, depending how long you have been in the United States
A parent or caretaker relative or a child under 21 if:
The child's parent is deceased or doesn't live with the child, or
The child's parent is incapacitated, or
The child's parent is under employed or unemployed

Have been screened for breast and/or cervical cancer (Breast and Cervical Cancer Treatment Program)*

The above link was directly from the State of California, and I don't see anything here that says "free healthcare for all illegals". And go ahead and google 'CalWorks'... that program even lists being a US citizen as a criteria for determining eligibility. Anyway, I wasn't talking about the flawed market-based health care system in any of my previous posts. "Medi-Cal" and "hospitals" are two different words. And yes, a child birth without proper facilities can result in death... of the child and/or the mother. I shouldn't have to spell of of this out to you and I am finding it increasingly frustrating to do so on a regular basis. I can care less about your area, but ZERO hospitals in my area have closed down. Actually, their remodeling! :blink:

As for your military service, thanks for that, from one veteran to another. :thumbsup:

That's a fine set of links you put together back there too. You and I can agree, illegals of every race put a huge strain on our economical systems. We should also be able to agree that not all illegals are Mexican. We should also agree that not all workers on every jobsite who do not look like you, are illegal AND Mexican. Once we get this straight, we have nothing to argue about.

EDIT: I will also add, I understand the 'system' is capable of being taken advantage of by EVERYONE, not just Mexicans. Again, you should be grown enough to acknowledge these facts. I'm done with you, and your buddy Rob.


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

*YOU CAN ALSO GET MEDI-CAL IF YOU ARE:
65 or older
Blind
Disabled
Under 21
Pregnant <--------------*Look see this,even your own post proves your wrong


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

hey mechanical....will you please stop letting the facts get in the way of spoons perfectly good opinion? thanks:icon_wink:


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

robnj772 said:


> *YOU CAN ALSO GET MEDI-CAL IF YOU ARE:*
> *65 or older*
> *Blind*
> *Disabled*
> ...


From the way it looks in my area the "under 21" could be used (some of the girls look 12).


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

spoon said:


> http://www.dhcs.ca.gov/services/medi-cal/Pages/Medi-CalEligibility.aspx
> 
> *IF YOU ARE ENROLLED IN ONE OF THE FOLLOWING PROGRAMS, YOU CAN GET MEDI-CAL:*
> *SSI/SSP*
> ...


 

When I see the BigGuy on the job later should I tell him you'll be coming with the Kiwi and spit rag?


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## spoon (Dec 9, 2008)

randomkiller said:


> When I see the BigGuy on the job later should I tell him you'll be coming with the Kiwi and spit rag?


You totally dismiss the most important part of my post. Here, again.

_"You and I can agree, illegals of every race put a huge strain on our economical systems. We should also be able to agree that not all illegals are Mexican. We should also agree that not all workers on every jobsite who do not look like you, are illegal AND Mexican. Once we get this straight, we have nothing to argue about.

EDIT: I will also add, I understand the 'system' is capable of being taken advantage of by EVERYONE, not just Mexicans. Again, you should be grown enough to acknowledge these facts. I'm done with you, and your buddy Rob."_




randomkiller said:


> From the way it looks in my area the "under 21" could be used (some of the girls look 12).


Okay, so we went from "all Mexicans on jobsites are illegals not paying taxes", to this? 

Some more clarification; not all non-whites on jobsites are Mexicans. Not all non-whites on jobsites are illegals. Not all non-whites on jobsites are pregnant and look like 12-year-old girls. EVERYONE working on a jobsite is paying taxes regardless of race, and if there are any that do not pay taxes (working illegitimately), responsibility lies not only on the worker but also of the contractors employing said illegals. If you don't think they pay taxes, why don't you ask 'em? I'd like to hear your stories.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

> _EDIT: I will also add, I understand the 'system' is capable of being taken advantage of by EVERYONE, not just Mexicans. Again, you should be grown enough to acknowledge these facts. I'm done with you, and your buddy Rob."_


 
Boy ain't this the truth, I heard on the news this morning that "some" home owners are intentionally not paying their mortgage payments hoping to get a residential bailout. NOT SMART in the long run.


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## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

Illegal immigrants make up sizable percentage of construction industry
Illegal immigrants make up about 14% of construction workers in the U.S., according to Pew Hispanic Center. Other studies estimate that the percentage of illegal workers in the construction industry is as much as 36%. Meanwhile, U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement recently announced it will prosecute employers of illegal immigrants. Mondaq

As I have said before regarding my area, most people believe that Mexico includes all of Central America and parts of South America except for the beautiful women from Victoria's secret. I lived in the central valley of California for ten years and I can factually state that over 60% of the hospitals and medical clinics in the rural ares closed due to the fact that the illegal immigrates were bankrupted them. There was no government bailout. These were both private and government own facilities. The federal government refuses to add any more to the state governments who have the vast majority of the immigrants. Get off of it, vote locally to enforce state immigration laws and vote federally to have congress enforce current laws to the fullest. Other wise fire up a huge military and lets just take over the world.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

brian john said:


> Boy ain't this the truth, I heard on the news this morning that "some" home owners are intentionally not paying their mortgage payments hoping to get a residential bailout. NOT SMART in the long run.


 
Exactly. Change the system that gives free stuff. People of any status will be tempted to take advantage.

The ER's ARE clogged with poor people both legal and illegal who use it as their primary medical care. These people will never, ever pay their bills. The hospitals will get compensated from the government and you and I will pay.

Change the system and quit giving schit away.


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## spoon (Dec 9, 2008)

spoon said:


> EDIT: I will also add, I understand the 'system' is capable of being taken advantage of by EVERYONE, not just Mexicans. Again, you should be grown enough to acknowledge these facts. I'm done with you, and your buddy Rob.





brian john said:


> Boy ain't this the truth, I heard on the news this morning that "some" home owners are intentionally not paying their mortgage payments hoping to get a residential bailout. NOT SMART in the long run.





220/221 said:


> Exactly. Change the system that gives free stuff. People of any status will be tempted to take advantage.
> 
> The ER's ARE clogged with poor people both legal and illegal who use it as their primary medical care. These people will never, ever pay their bills. The hospitals will get compensated from the government and you and I will pay.
> 
> Change the system and quit giving schit away.


All that, and prosecute companies who routinely employ illegals. We're finally on the right track. :thumbup:


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

In a hearing in the House Appropriations Subcommittee on Homeland Security earlier this month, Border Patrol Chief David Aguilar said his agency has apprehended 919,000 illegal immigrants so far this year - 119,000 of whom were OTMs.

OTMs (Other than mexicans) , sounds like 1 in 9 illegals aren't mexican to me.

*INVASION USA
*Illegal aliens murder 12 Americans daily
Death toll in 2006 far overshadows total U.S. soldiers killed in Iraq, Afghanistan

And you thought they just hang at the depot.


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

randomkiller said:


> In a hearing in the House Appropriations Subcommittee on Homeland Security earlier this month, Border Patrol Chief David Aguilar said his agency has apprehended 919,000 illegal immigrants so far this year - 119,000 of whom were OTMs.
> 
> OTMs (Other than mexicans) , sounds like 1 in 9 illegals aren't mexican to me.
> 
> ...


hell new orleans, camdem nj and detroit gets better numbers than iraq and afghanistan some months


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## spoon (Dec 9, 2008)

randomkiller said:


> 919,000 illegal immigrants so far this year - 119,000 of whom were OTMs.


I am not sure what you are trying to accomplish by going out of your way to publish these number here, since no one has argued exactly which country the most illegal immigrants have come from. It makes perfect sense that Mexicans make up most of the illegals in the United States... after all they are right next door and we didn't do a good job of keeping them out in the first place, that argument is moot.. 

And about your 'murder statistics'... how much sense does it make that you are posting that info here? How about this little tidbit of information, directly from the Bureau of Justice Statistics. Wow, whites commit over 70% of workplace murders. That's about 25x the amount of workplace murders committed by 'others'. And this pertains to us, how?










Listen, illegals are a problem in this country and we have that established already. Tell us something that we don't already know. How about head to the jobsite today and conduct your own census. I'd like to see if you can find out exactly how many, out of all non-whites on the jobsite, pay their taxes. That's what this thread was about from the getgo so let's head in that direction, shall we? :no:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Couple of thoughts

Look at the poison stats, I read where poison is the weapon of choice for women!


And what percentage of the population is white?


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## slowforthecones (Sep 13, 2008)

Spoon.. amen.. I agree with you. Way too many amigos running around undercutting our labor rates in California.


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## waco (Dec 10, 2007)

I lived in El Paso where everybody uses "maids" who come over, either legally or illegally, nobody I know of cares, but, I insisted on paying them what I felt was a fair day's pay rather than the four or five dollars a day that was the going rate. Didn't work out very well because the women didn't trust us, I guess because we departed from the norms.

I was also a Marine and I applaud anybody willing to do whatever they must to get a better life and I think it is naive' to imagine the "legal" ways work because they don't.

I never lost a thing to a Mexican or a "black." The more the merrier I is my motto.


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## shunt trip (Jan 15, 2009)

If a hospital accepts a patient, the patient or insurance will be billed, if they disappear into the woodwork, the hospital or taxpayers or both pay for it. either directly or indirectly, it effects everyone & does not matter what color the patient is.


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## kevgeez (Jun 2, 2009)

Stan Mason said:


> Ok this i know is not a electrical problem, but it a real problem why is it when you go to a job site or drive by it all you see is Mexicans I am not a racist or prejudise i am just mad that they don't pay taxes and are here illegally and now were going in to a ression and all they have to do is go back to mexico and live like kings, I think they *should pay taxes*.How can we fight for more money when they would work for half of what we make,Just Venting


Jesus, you really need to lean how to write.
:laughing:
and btw, *No one in America* should have to pay federal income taxes. 
Its illegal to tax income...or so says the Constitution.


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

kevgeez said:


> *No one in America* should have to pay federal income taxes.
> Its illegal to tax income...or so says the Constitution.


Take a look at the 16th amendment. 

Go ahead don't pay your taxes. I will gladly pay my percentage of your $50,000 a year cost of incarceration.

If we don't pay taxes, where is the money going to come from?


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

Maybe someone should just shoot them all?

It would almost solve at least _one_ problem.


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

Why didn't you just start a new thread?

This is a mexician bashing thread that died out back in January


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

I don't know who you're referring to since you didn't quote anyone, but I just replied to it because showed up on the "New Posts" list.


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

kevgeez said:


> Jesus, you really need to lean how to write.
> :laughing:
> and btw, *No one in America* should have to pay federal income taxes.
> Its illegal to tax income...or so says the Constitution.


 
I was referring to him

He quoted off the OP,that was back in November of last year


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## sparkyboys (May 3, 2009)

Stan Mason said:


> Ok this i know is not a electrical problem, but it a real problem why is it when you go to a job site or drive by it all you see is Mexicans I am not a racist or prejudise i am just mad that they don't pay taxes and are here illegally and now were going in to a ression and all they have to do is go back to mexico and live like kings, I think they should pay taxes.How can we fight for more money when they would work for half of what we make,Just Venting


you could always call immigration to the job site


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## kevgeez (Jun 2, 2009)

knowshorts said:


> Take a look at the 16th amendment.
> 
> Go ahead don't pay your taxes. I will gladly pay my percentage of your $50,000 a year cost of incarceration.
> 
> *If we don't pay taxes, where is the money going to come from*?


Wtf are you talking about?
:blink:
By the laws of the Constitution it is illegal to tax the American people's income. There's other taxes to pay that are legal? Yes.
Like state tax and some others.

But Federal income tax is illegal and will always be illegal until The federal Reserve Bank finishes destroying our Constitution. 

Let me drop some knowledge on you:
We as Americans dont even KNOW where our tax dollars are being spent!
Do you know anyone that liked the AIG and other big business bailouts?
The truth, if you'd care to look it up, is that we dont even have the power to question the Federal Reserve.

"Where is the money being spent?" should be your question, friend.
*Bailouts & Frivolous Wars* with no end in sight.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

sparkyboys said:


> you could always call immigration to the job site




Or u could do like I do and wear a "US Border Patrol" hat I bought from the Newsmax website and wear it to the jobsite. :thumbsup:


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## acmax (Apr 20, 2009)

kevgeez said:


> Wtf are you talking about?
> :blink:
> By the laws of the Constitution it is illegal to tax the American people's income. There's other taxes to pay that are legal? Yes.
> Like state tax and some others.
> ...


 
Federal Tax Revenues go to pay for the protection you receive to make the selfish statements that emit from the hole in your face. God bless The U S:thumbup:


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

Magnettica said:


> Or u could do like I do and wear a "US Border Patrol" hat I bought from the Newsmax website and wear it to the jobsite. :thumbsup:


I am going to order one right now


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## kevgeez (Jun 2, 2009)

*ah another misconception to breakdown.*



acmax said:


> Federal Tax Revenues go to pay for the protection you receive to make the selfish statements that emit from the hole in your face. *God bless The U S*:thumbup:


What protection are you talking about?

Oh, and YEA! God bless America and ONLY America!
Everywhere else can burn right?


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## sparkyboys (May 3, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> Or u could do like I do and wear a "US Border Patrol" hat I bought from the Newsmax website and wear it to the jobsite. :thumbsup:


:laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

kevgeez said:


> What protection are you talking about?
> 
> Oh, and YEA! God bless America and ONLY America!
> Everywhere else can burn right?


RIGHT!

If you don't love Americia leave

Hey I know you could go move to sweden and get some ***** work clothes


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Enough already.


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