# Admit it, you can't beat a pension



## VCD (Apr 30, 2010)

I've been in my union for 5 years. I am 30. I could quit my union now, and when I retire I would get $986 a month in pension until the day I die. I still have a good 25 years until I would retire. That would put my pension near 5 thousand a month. Until the day I die. If I retire at 60 (which I plan too) and live to 90 (common in my family) that is 1.8 million in payout. With that and my union annuity payed by my contractor ($2.50 hour), NEBF (national retirement fund) and my own Roth IRA, I fully plan on sitting pretty when I'm an old man and having NO money worries. We as electricians work too hard to have to worry about money when we are old. I've worked with a lot of former non-union electricians who have NOTHING saved for retirement, and if they do it is measly in comparison to the pension they could have got for their years of work.


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## John (Jan 22, 2007)

VCD said:


> I've been in my union for 5 years. I am 30. I could quit my union now, and when I retire I would get $986 a month in pension until the day I die. I still have a good 25 years until I would retire. That would put my pension near 5 thousand a month. Until the day I die. If I retire at 60 (which I plan too) and live to 90 (common in my family) that is 1.8 million in payout. With that and my union annuity payed by my contractor ($2.50 hour), NEBF (national retirement fund) and my own Roth IRA, I fully plan on sitting pretty when I'm an old man and having NO money worries. We as electricians work too hard to have to worry about money when we are old. I've worked with a lot of former non-union electricians who have NOTHING saved for retirement, and if they do it is measly in comparison to the pension they could have got for their years of work.


BTW welcome to Et
You are stereotyping non- union electricians and standing on a soapbox in a tarzan manor beating your chest yelling " Union...Union....Union". Stop it........

IMO most electricians( both unoin and nonunion) have their act together and have planned their retirement to where they don't have live under a bridge some where.

BTW....Welcome to ET


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Pensions are nice, easy to set up too, many EC's have an SEP.

~CS~


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

VCD said:


> I've been in my union for 5 years. I am 30. I could quit my union now, and when I retire I would get $986 a month in pension until the day I die. I still have a good 25 years until I would retire. That would put my pension near 5 thousand a month. Until the day I die. If I retire at 60 (which I plan too) and live to 90 (common in my family) that is 1.8 million in payout. With that and my union annuity payed by my contractor ($2.50 hour), NEBF (national retirement fund) and my own Roth IRA, I fully plan on sitting pretty when I'm an old man and having NO money worries. We as electricians work too hard to have to worry about money when we are old. I've worked with a lot of former non-union electricians who have NOTHING saved for retirement, and if they do it is measly in comparison to the pension they could have got for their years of work.


. Agreed , but anyone who thinks at all about tomorrow , has the ability to set themselves up with a very good retirement . Let's face it , if the union didn't automatically distribute your money into pension / annuity and left it solely up to the members to enroll , a large percentage would contribute the bare minimum or nothing , so they could see more in their checks each week . I've worked with morons who have taken money out of their annuity , paid a 30% penalty , to buy a new car , lol ? These are the people who will not have a pot to piss in come retirement ! Keep doing what you're doing , but remember , the guy playing shuffleboard next to you , may be a retired non-union electrician , lol ?


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

While the concept of saving is prudent, the mechanism for it has changed.

Most of you reading this know what happened to your savings in '08

So, i would only say that it's no longer a sure thing to kick back and do the math for whatever economic evolution 2050 sugars off to be

~CS~


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## T&K (Jun 18, 2012)

All eggs + 1 basket = mistake of biblical proportion.


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## Spunk#7 (Nov 30, 2012)

What's everybody here think about public unions? Teachers,police,prison guards,DOT workers,fireman,toll takers,etc! In NJ prisons guards work 25 yrs. to retire,some do that by age 45 yrs.


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## bkmichael65 (Mar 25, 2013)

Union pensions have been historically as safe as........well, the Titanic comes to mind. I hope yours pans out well, but many people are finding that they go to the cupboard only to find it bare


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## FrunkSlammer (Aug 31, 2013)

VCD, that sounds like a lot of money, but remember that with inflation a million won't be worth as much in 30 years as it is today. I'm not trying to crap on your dream, but take a look at current retirees, at best they are just comfortable. 

In 1960 when some workers started making their pension contributions, a car cost $2,600, and a house cost $20,000. They probably thought a payout of $150,000 was more money then they could ever possibly need. That they would be rich jet setters travelling the world and doing as they please. Reality is they just barely pay their bills and live a very modest life.

It's not a bad thing and you'll be better off than many by saving so much. But if you really want to be well off when you're retired, you gotta do more than just pensions and retirement savings plans.


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## daveEM (Nov 18, 2012)

Sounds good VCD. 

Myself I have to do at least something till I die.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Call somebody in Greece and ask them how that union pension thing is working out for them over there. Might want to ask also about the ''haircut'' that the banks gave the savings accounts also..


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Comical all the folks saying pensions are worthless in this thread. 

I guess making less and not having a pension is the way to go then! :thumbsup:

Honestly, how do all you non union non pensioned non annunitied folks plan for retirement?


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## greenman (Apr 20, 2012)

I WORK FOR THE CANADIAN UNION OF SKILLED WORKERS, THEY GOT IT RIGHT, WE GET .R.S.P.S FOR EVERY HOUR WORKED.
THE UNION HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.
YOU PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOU WANT IT.:thumbsup:


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

bkmichael65 said:


> Union pensions have been historically as safe as........well, the Titanic comes to mind. I hope yours pans out well, but many people are finding that they go to the cupboard only to find it bare


Not really - a few examples ( ignore the public worker pensions that have been raided by politicians to support their lower taxes for the wealthy agendas ) might bolster your amusing mixed metaphor.

Most of the ones you will find are from businesses that have failed and have raided their own pension funds before failing...ie Hostess. While some pensions are tragically managed ( see the Central States pension fund ) the great majority are in fine shape.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

eejack said:


> Not really - a few examples ( ignore the public worker pensions that have been raided by politicians to support their lower taxes for the wealthy agendas ) might bolster your amusing mixed metaphor.
> 
> Most of the ones you will find are from businesses that have failed and have raided their own pension funds before failing...ie Hostess. While some pensions are tragically managed ( see the Central States pension fund ) the great majority are in fine shape.


We have the Employee Retirement Security act & the Pension and Welfare benefits administration because _nobody _is immune from abuse eejack.

And even they can't prevent fiscal liquids from evaporating into another Libor ,wall street crash, or the dollar taking a dive

~CS~


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

eejack said:


> Comical all the folks saying pensions are worthless in this thread.
> 
> I guess making less and not having a pension is the way to go then! :thumbsup:
> 
> Honestly, how do all you non union non pensioned non annunitied folks plan for retirement?


For the company man - a 401k

For the businessman - a Roth IRA or some kind of investments. Or the trusty buried coffee can in the back yard. :laughing:

Im pretty sure most non-union folks, regardless of job or trade, are doing a 401k or something similar.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

can anyone here tell me what a 2014 dollar is going to be worth in 2054, inflation considered?

~CS~


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

chicken steve said:


> can anyone here tell me what a 2014 dollar is going to be worth in 2054, inflation considered? ~CS~


. - $ 1,000,000,000 ( one billion dollars ! )


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## AllWIRES (Apr 10, 2014)

T&K said:


> All eggs + 1 basket = mistake of biblical proportion.



:laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

......and so your investment will be inversely proportional to that inflation Drummer.

Look, all i'm saying is, don't leave your nest egg in Wall st's 'good hands' , think of something a little more stable

they're not

~CS~


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

chicken steve said:


> ......and so your investment will be inversely proportional to that inflation Drummer. Look, all i'm saying is, don't leave your nest egg in Wall st's 'good hands' , think of something a little more stable they're not ~CS~


. I was joking , and that was a - ( negative ) one billion dollars , lol ! I'm amazed i'm still alive and it's not like a mad max scene when I wake up everyday . I have no faith any money I put anywhere ( other than under a mattress ) will be there when I really need it , lol !


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

I'm happy with my pensions and investments and the like, but by no means is it guaranteed that our financial system as we know it will still be there by the time we retire. I turn 32 in a month and I'm squirrelling away for just that possible outcome.

If there's one thing that's for sure in this country (other than death and taxes of course), it's that the oligarchy will run us right into the ground and keep going with no second thoughts.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

I've had so many investment strategies blown up in my face that at this point i'm collecting chicken recipes....

~C_(extra crispy)_S~


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

T&K said:


> All eggs + 1 basket = mistake of biblical proportion.


would it be a good idea to have these pension funds insured?
would that be a good thing?


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## bkmichael65 (Mar 25, 2013)

eejack said:


> Not really - a few examples ( ignore the public worker pensions that have been raided by politicians to support their lower taxes for the wealthy agendas ) might bolster your amusing mixed metaphor.
> 
> Most of the ones you will find are from businesses that have failed and have raided their own pension funds before failing...ie Hostess. While some pensions are tragically managed ( see the Central States pension fund ) the great majority are in fine shape.


Hundreds of critical/endangered pension notices on the Department of Labor's website. I wasn't trying to bash union pensions, just letting the OP know that in between bouts of braggadocio he might want to keep checking on the status of his pension and other investments. My dad was union for 40 years and what he was counting on and what he ended up getting were 2 different things


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

Well yes asked the teamsters NJ local 701 back in 1969 what a union pension did for them . How much money was invested in Vegas and other investments when Jimmy Hoffa was running the show.
And when many teamsters went to collect there pension benefits it was frozen for years and they had to go back to work until they finally got there money many years after they retired one of them teamsters was my father .

Who retired at 62 years old and had to go back to work until it was unfrozen by the Feds funny part was the union would not let teamsters back once retired. So my Dad had to find a job non union after 35 plus years union 
to support himself .
Try getting a job driving a truck when your 62 years old and union and going to a non union company . It was a slap in the face and he hated it .

Listen when our government cant pay SS benefits and there running out of money . Or when the company goes broke and all the investors bail out .
How or what do you think a pension is safe nothings safe .
30years from now ask yourself will there be a need for a union its phasing out no one needs it . Just put it in a 401 k and youll have more than 5000 a month to spend come retire time .
Or invest your money yourself at least if its lost or spent you did it yourself
personally I don't like being told or have someone hold my hand to keep a job or someone to talk for me .

Get a real job work for what your worth not just a pension plan that today is maybe going to be gone in the near future. Its like this in 15 years I see no more unions of any kind operating in the US companys don't want high dollar labor 
if they can get the same product for less .


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

While I love our union pension and the large amount of money that i have put into it over the years....I agree with all the rest saying that we have to do more than just that. Put away some RRSP's, mutuals, 401K ......whatever is available to you and you can afford. Put it away now for when we need it later.


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## LARMGUY (Aug 22, 2010)

drumnut08 said:


> . - $ 1,000,000,000 ( one billion dollars ! )


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## FrunkSlammer (Aug 31, 2013)

Inflation probably sits around ~5% per year? So do the math on what junk will cost in 30-50 years based on what they cost today plus inflation. Which is probably very underestimated as I think things will simply cost more in the future.. food, shelter, fuel..etc. 

$1 today will be $4.32 in 30 years @ 5% compounded yearly; and
$1 today will be $11.47 in 50 years @ 5% compounded yearly

So that box of depends adult diapers that right now costs $30 will cost $344 in 50 years when you really need them. Keep saving!


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## CADPoint (Jul 5, 2007)

VCD said:


> I've been in my union for 5 years. I am 30. I could quit my union now, and when I retire I would get $986 a month in pension until the day I die. I still have a good 25 years until I would retire. That would put my pension near 5 thousand a month. Until the day I die. If I retire at 60 (which I plan too) and live to 90 (common in my family) that is 1.8 million in payout. With that and my union annuity payed by my contractor ($2.50 hour), NEBF (national retirement fund) and my own Roth IRA, I fully plan on sitting pretty when I'm an old man and having NO money worries. We as electricians work too hard to have to worry about money when we are old. I've worked with a lot of former non-union electricians who have NOTHING saved for retirement, and if they do it is measly in comparison to the pension they could have got for their years of work.


Read the opening OP only, makes me want to join a union for 5, maybe I could give them seven...


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## LARMGUY (Aug 22, 2010)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/nextavenue/2012/12/29/watch-out-your-401k-is-being-targeted/

Watch Out: Your 401(k) Is Being Targeted


http://www.wnd.com/2012/11/now-obama-wants-your-401k/

Never put past anything congress can Eff up!


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## AllWIRES (Apr 10, 2014)

greenman said:


> I WORK FOR THE CANADIAN UNION OF SKILLED WORKERS, THEY GOT IT RIGHT, WE GET .R.S.P.S FOR EVERY HOUR WORKED. THE UNION HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT. YOU PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOU WANT IT.:thumbsup:


Is it loud in here?


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## FrunkSlammer (Aug 31, 2013)

Hope his benefits cover hearing aids. :whistling2:


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## T&K (Jun 18, 2012)

jrannis said:


> would it be a good idea to have these pension funds insured?
> would that be a good thing?


I'm not sure what the answer is to that. Seems to me by doing that, and using some of your money to pay the insurance premiums, you would invest the same, and the company would get less, by just investing in lower risk investments.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

the prob is, there are no low risk investments when commercial banking industry plays with $$$ anymore....

~CS~


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## Helmut (May 7, 2014)

VCD said:


> Admit it, you can't beat a pension


No sir, *YOU* can't beat a pension. A lot of us can, and do.




VCD said:


> I've worked with a lot of former non-union electricians who have NOTHING saved for retirement, and if they do it is measly in comparison to the pension they could have got for their years of work.


And I have worked with many union people who either counted on something that never showed up, and now work at walmart for health benefits, or after 30 years they finally realized they were lied to.


FWIW, in 15 years of business, I'd blow away your 15 years of pension in the Union.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Helmut said:


> No sir, *YOU* can't beat a pension. A lot of us can, and do.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And that my friends is how you shovel bullcrap. Forget facts, ignore reason, just boldly put forth a pile with confidence and folks will believe it.

However, when you lie like this, you gotta watch the details. ...work at walmart for health benefits... even the dullest of spoons here know that walmart doesn't provide benefits, so you made that up, therefore the rest of it is bunk.

3 points for the presentation though :thumbsup:

Only took you ten posts to make an ignore list...Mazeltov.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

VCD said:


> I've been in my union for 5 years. I am 30. I could quit my union now, and when I retire I would get $986 a month in pension until the day I die. I still have a good 25 years until I would retire. That would put my pension near 5 thousand a month. Until the day I die. If I retire at 60 (which I plan too) and live to 90 (common in my family) that is 1.8 million in payout. With that and my union annuity payed by my contractor ($2.50 hour), NEBF (national retirement fund) and my own Roth IRA, I fully plan on sitting pretty when I'm an old man and having NO money worries. We as electricians work too hard to have to worry about money when we are old. I've worked with a lot of former non-union electricians who have NOTHING saved for retirement, and if they do it is measly in comparison to the pension they could have got for their years of work.


I love my union pension, but not buying this. Your pension credit would have to be around $200 a credit. Especially not in Arkansas.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

Helmut said:


> No sir, *YOU* can't beat a pension. A lot of us can, and do.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hack cough bull****. Our union pension fund is in the top 10% of taft hartly pension funds in the country. Ive never heard of a union guy having to work at walmart. Another bull****ter.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Helmut is quite correct :thumbsup:

First off the pension abuse examples are endless, if not readily available _locally _for anyone who pays attention.

What do you _think _happens when companies are outsourced, acquisitioned , and/or claim bankruptcy? :no:

My area saw the  banksters bust the machinist unions , as well as the truckers unions _(of which i was once member) _into a sad bunch of 50ish yr old _unviable_ workers protesting under a tent across the street from their former places of employment 

Their pensions _evaporated_ into the litigant vortex btw.

This is what you get from placing your _trust _in people who can manipulate the law to their advantage

This is also why i'm on my own, i'd rather gamble my existence on what i can pull down, than _trust _ my existence on such sorts and situations :no:

Granted, sometimes i eat the bear, sometimes the bear eats me, but on a good day my contractual _pot 'o gold_ can pay off _better _than any ibew man's week :thumbup:

~CS~


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

chicken steve said:


> Helmut is quite correct :thumbsup:
> 
> First off the pension abuse examples are endless, if not readily available _locally _for anyone who pays attention.
> 
> ...


Were talking today, not what happened in the 60's or 70's. That's a bold statement about beating *any *IBEW pension. I call bull**** on that too.


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

Pension can be very helpful, retired at 38 years old and on well on my way to my second retirement. You need to watch out for yourself.
I work with a guy who is in his late 40s who has nothing set aside and no retirement plan. His company offers to match 401K contributions but he never has an extra nickle. He doesn't even spend it on whiskey and women, blows his money the tithe to his church.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Loose Neutral said:


> Were talking today, not what happened in the 60's or 70's. That's a bold statement about beating *any *IBEW pension. I call bull**** on that too.


One needs to be bold to be captain of his own ship Loose one

~CS~


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

Aye aye matey!! You are correct Captain Chicken!!


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## mr hands (Sep 15, 2013)

If you are thirty right now, or forty, you can kiss most all of that retirement money goodbye.

When the boomers stick their straw into the market, they, and the rich brokers who will short sell it, are going to suck it all dry.

Better to pace yourself, enjoy your life, and care for your health. Because it might suck really bad in 2030, and for sure in 2040. The way we use up water and oil in the present, we might not have it then, and everything will be sooper expensive.


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

The advantage (as I see it) is when you join the IBEW you are told what the benefits are including what the retirement package is, since I have been in the IBEW, the retirement benefits have gotten better (more options). From day one to the day you retire no matter how many companies you work for those beanies are there growing for you and remain the same as you move company to company. ANd unless something happens to the IBEW, your retirement will be waiting.


My friends that retired from the IBEW (youngest was 57- oldest was 62) are very happy with their money and health care.

But I also know some open shop men that have a decent retirement.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

While i'll agree on the _comfort and concept_ of pensions, my point is the IBEW members have no more _control _over the _fiscal world's debaucheries_ than Enron workers.


~CS~


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

Hold the eggs chicken. Each local has their own set of trustees that can adapt to market conditions quickly. To pull of an Enron it would take way too much cooperation.


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

chicken steve said:


> While i'll agree on the _comfort and concept_ of pensions, my point is the IBEW members have no more _control _over the _fiscal world's debaucheries_ than Enron workers.
> 
> 
> ~CS~


I agree but in my experience most individuals never give retirement a thought until they are in their 40's, with the IBEW, you do not have to give it a though, you are covered from day one.


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

mr hands said:


> If you are thirty right now, or forty, you can kiss most all of that retirement money goodbye.
> .



In 1971 RIchard Nixon was president, inflation was high, the government placed price controls on most items, IRA's had just started and my father a CPA talked me into starting an account. All the middle age and old timers told me I was stupid, wasting my money on a Wall Street Gamble, I did not put much in but what I did those 43 years ago looks pretty today.

Life is a gamble, we all ain't going to get trophies, but that does not mean I am not going to play, every time you drive your car/truck you are taking a risk, you going to quit driving.


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## AllWIRES (Apr 10, 2014)

Bad Electrician said:


> ...with the IBEW, you do not have to give it a thought...


:laughing:


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Bad Electrician said:


> In 1971 RIchard Nixon was president, inflation was high, the government placed price controls on most items, IRA's had just started and my father a CPA talked me into starting an account. All the middle age and old timers told me I was stupid, wasting my money on a Wall Street Gamble, I did not put much in but what I did those 43 years ago looks pretty today.
> 
> Life is a gamble, we all ain't going to get trophies, but that does not mean I am not going to play, every time you drive your car/truck you are taking a risk, you going to quit driving.


Well said Bad one :thumbsup: _very_ well said!

~CS~


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

T&K said:


> All eggs + 1 basket = mistake of biblical proportion.


Yep, I have a very good pension, 401K, real estate, Roth IRA cash holdings and stocks. Then there are social security and some inheritances if they pan out.


Of course all your good planning could be for not...

http://www.examiner.com/article/government-considering-socializing-retirement-accounts


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

five.five-six said:


> Yep, I have a very good pension, 401K, real estate, Roth IRA cash holdings and stocks. Then there are social security and some inheritances if they pan out.
> 
> 
> Of course all your good planning could be for not...
> ...


True but with the diversity you are either very smart or you are going to be homeless. 

If it goes south I have 5 different tents and I'd rent you one!


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

Bad Electrician said:


> True but with the diversity you are either very smart or you are going to be homeless.
> 
> If it goes south I have 5 different tents and I'd rent you one!


I have lots of guns and ammo and I will take whatever tent I like.










Relax, I have a really nice RV, no tents needed


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

five.five-six said:


> I have lots of guns and ammo and I will take whatever tent I like.
> 
> Relax, I have a really nice RV, no tents needed


I have been tent camping since I was 6 months old, but at 61 an RV seems very appealing.


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

LARMGUY said:


> http://www.forbes.com/sites/nextavenue/2012/12/29/watch-out-your-401k-is-being-targeted/
> 
> Watch Out: Your 401(k) Is Being Targeted
> 
> ...


Funny how no one replied to the post above.


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## madbubba (Sep 1, 2013)

Unions suck, too many layoffs, they layoff the good workers and keep the useless tits who are 60 plus years old just because of seniority. LOL you don't even learn how to bend conduit until you're a 3rd year. Thats pathetic.


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

madbubba said:


> Unions suck, too many layoffs, they layoff the good workers and keep the useless tits who are 60 plus years old just because of seniority. LOL you don't even learn how to bend conduit until you're a 3rd year. Thats pathetic.


I have been associated with the IBEW for 36 years, laid off once and that was MY FAULT.

I have never seen bad workers kept over good workers, they do try to keep older workers but typically these guys have something to offer.

Are there problems with union, you bet, but in my experience good workers work.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

madbubba said:


> Unions suck, too many layoffs, they layoff the good workers and keep the useless tits who are 60 plus years old just because of seniority. LOL you don't even learn how to bend conduit until you're a 3rd year. Thats pathetic.


Didn't get in huh?


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## retiredsparktech (Mar 8, 2011)

madbubba said:


> Unions suck, too many layoffs, they layoff the good workers and keep the useless tits who are 60 plus years old just because of seniority. LOL you don't even learn how to bend conduit until you're a 3rd year. Thats pathetic.


You're thinking about the factory unions!
I went through that for 33+ years.
The IBEW works a lot different. Union and management work together. If the older employee is not producing, management has the option to send that person, back to the hall.
Also, most of the management are paying union dues, as well.
Trade unions, are totally different than the Teamsters and UAW, etc. :001_huh:


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

madbubba said:


> Unions suck, too many layoffs, they layoff the good workers and keep the useless tits who are 60 plus years old just because of seniority. LOL you don't even learn how to bend conduit until you're a 3rd year. Thats pathetic.


And then there is the real world.
In 30 plus years, I haven't seen this. Not even once.:001_huh:


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