# CAT6 in conduit



## darren79

Current job is upgrading all there lighting controls. This will involve running new CAT6 between all lighting control cabinets to be controlled by a building management system.

The original install was done 20 years ago and they used 1/2" pipe between each cabinet to run a control wire.

Running a new pipe is not an option as this is big box store and it is not feasible to run new pipe.

How many CAT6 can you fit in a 1/2" pipe. Most spots will have 1 but there will be a couple of spots that I will need to put two cables into one pipe.


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## joebanana

Typically 2 cables in a 1/2", 3 in a 3/4".


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## B-Nabs

Why do you need to run cat6 for lighting controls anyway? No way that system is going to use that level of bandwidth. Cat5e would work perfectly fine, be cheaper, and easier to fit in small pipe.

As to your actual question, you should be able to get 2 cables in a 1/2". Personally I would lube it well to keep pulling tension down. 

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## MDShunk

B-Nabs said:


> Why do you need to run cat6 for lighting controls anyway? No way that system is going to use that level of bandwidth. Cat5e would work perfectly fine, be cheaper, and easier to fit in small pipe.
> 
> As to your actual question, you should be able to get 2 cables in a 1/2". Personally I would lube it well to keep pulling tension down.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


My sentiments also, but many companies have an unusual infatuation with requiring the latest and greatest network cable as part of their minimum spec. Whatever they want to pay for. Technically, I don't think the bend radius of 1/2" (when bent with a typical bender) even meets the requirements of any network cable, but I never really puzzled on it.


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## Gnome

Minimum bending radius on cat6 is only an inch (though a lot of specs will mandate >2"); the typical 5" radius produced by a 1/2" shoe bender is fine.


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## B-Nabs

Gnome said:


> Minimum bending radius on cat6 is only an inch (though a lot of specs will mandate >2"); the typical 5" radius produced by a 1/2" shoe bender is fine.


It may not exceed the bend radius but it is quite easy to exceed the cable's specified pulling tension in a small pipe. 

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## MDShunk

I think for lighting control, you could install the damn near anything (and in the worst possible way), and the "network" will still perform. Hell, I've seen repurposed POTS cable from former fax machines used for network printer locations, and it still performed.


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## darren79

B-Nabs said:


> Why do you need to run cat6 for lighting controls anyway?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


Some engineer from GE decided to spec cat6 on there specs for the wire to go between each lighting control cabinet.


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## B-Nabs

darren79 said:


> Some engineer from GE decided to spec cat6 on there specs for the wire to go between each lighting control cabinet.


Sometimes a spec is worth "not noticing". 

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## bill39

B-Nabs said:


> Sometimes a spec is worth "not noticing".
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


A couple of comments:
1) whether it’s Cat 6 or Cat 5, it’s effectively the same size.

2) If you are implying that it doesn’t need to be run, then how is that not noticed?

3) does the spec say the Ethernet cable needs to be ran in conduit?


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## splatz

The diameter of cat 6 cables is not uniform at all, there are significant differences between brands and types. 

I would look for a brand that's small in diameter just for comfort. There are some that are on the small side that you can fit 3 and squeak in under 40% if you do the fill calc. 

I don't think it will be an issue and I don't know Canadian code but unless there's a spec for fill ratio you may have some latitude. 

Whatever, always LUBE. Huge difference, especially with PVC jacket.


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## frenchelectrican

Darren79.,

I have to ask ya something .,,

Are you plan to run cat5 or cat6 ethernet cable along with power conductors inside the conduit or not ? 

If so you need to watch out on voltage rating.


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## B-Nabs

bill39 said:


> A couple of comments:
> 1) whether it’s Cat 6 or Cat 5, it’s effectively the same size.
> 
> 2) If you are implying that it doesn’t need to be run, then how is that not noticed?
> 
> 3) does the spec say the Ethernet cable needs to be ran in conduit?


1) in my experience cat6 is generally thicker than cat5. For one thing it tends to have larger gauge conductors (22AWG rather than 24). This also means it terminates into different jacks &/or mod plugs. These components, as well as the cable, are more expensive than their cat5 counterparts. And if running more than a couple cables, it will mean you need to run bigger pipe than if you used cat5, also more expensive/labour intensive. 

2) what I meant is, the system uses 4 pair UTP, fine. Depending on the situation I might just pull cat5, having "not noticed" the spec called for cat6. Because I'm crazy like that.

As I mentioned above, there is absolutely no reason for the added cost/other challenges of cat6 in this application. 

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## MDShunk

I work with braided double shield Cat 6 pretty regularly where I'm at now, and that stuff is nearly as big around as a Sharpie marker. It's the only stuff that will give reliable gigabit performance in an industrial environment with a zillion VFD's running. Sucks to terminate, though.


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## NewElect85

We just finished up a gym with spinning machines the plans called for each one to have a cat 6. We told them they didn't need that and were getting cat5. They came back and said, sorry, it was a typo, cat5 is more than enough.


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## splatz

For 20 years or so Cat5e is fully capable of gigabit ethernet and I have yet to see a place other than inside data centers running 10gigabit where Cat6 works and Cat5e doesn't. However, quibbling over chump change is for chumps. If they ask for Cat6, they get cat6. I won't invest even one text message in the downsell. 

In this case I'd sooner go over the 40% fill than have the discussion. Yes that's right I'll stuff a conduit right to 42% and somehow sleep like a baby. That's how gangster I am.


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## HackWork

splatz said:


> for 20 years or so cat5e is fully capable of gigabit ethernet and i have yet to see a place other than inside data centers running 10gigabit where cat6 works and cat5e doesn't. However, quibbling over chump change is for chumps. If they ask for cat6, they get cat6. I won't invest even one text message in the downsell.
> 
> In this case i'd sooner go over the 40% fill than have the discussion. Yes that's right i'll stuff a conduit right to 42% and somehow sleep like a baby. That's how gangster i am.


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## CTshockhazard

*OGSplatz in da houzz*

The lights might not turn on fast enough if you use cat5e, but if you upsell them on an LED retrofit, they won't notice because of the lamps slight delay.:devil3:


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## paulengr

B-Nabs said:


> Sometimes a spec is worth "not noticing".



Sure your profit is higher since it's just ordering different cable if you charge the same markup. But it's things like this that knowing you can do something better, stick in an option to "deduct $XXX to substitute CAT 5E instead of CAT 6". Quite often small things like this win bids two ways:
1. Cheaper than the competitor especially on big jobs where the cable cost is most of the money. Sometimes the small amount wins the bid.

2. It shows the customer that you're not just a hack...you know what you are doing, and that you're looking out for their interests, too.


Granted on this job most likely 99% of the cost is tied up in the lights.


Finally if you had control over more of the job (involved in the BMS too) sometimes you can use converters and reuse old cable such as by feeding serial (RS-485) signals over the old wiring that can work over miles of cable as opposed to the 100 meter limitation of Ethernet. But it's hard to get around the ridiculously cheap cost of CAT 5E/CAT 6 compared to adding just about any hardware solution.


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