# Canadian 600 volt systems



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Do you guys up north have to use any special wire color coding or markings on j-boxes, conduit, etc to identify a 600 volt system? 


On a sidenote, I went on vacation to Ontario last year, and outside of the hotel was a few massive HVAC units the size of a small car. Of course I had to go look at the nameplate, and it was funny to see them only require a 40 amp circuit @ 600 volts. :thumbup:


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## gardiner (Sep 25, 2007)

There is no real code rule as per the CEC on the colour code for 600 volts but I have seen trade practice in certain areas of Brown, Yellow and Orange for all 600 wiring. the again I have seen a lot of Red, black Blue too.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

gardiner said:


> There is no real code rule as per the CEC on the colour code for 600 volts but I have seen trade practice in certain areas of Brown, Yellow and Orange for all 600 wiring. the again I have seen a lot of Red, black Blue too.


That's pretty confusing. :blink:

That is very similar to the US, as we have no specified color code but where multiple voltages exist in the same building they have to be identified by phase and system. The NEC does not tell us what colors we have to use though. We use the BOY colors for 480 volt systems by trade practice, but generally not the other way around.


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## Jeff000 (Jun 18, 2008)

gardiner said:


> There is no real code rule as per the CEC on the colour code for 600 volts but I have seen trade practice in certain areas of Brown, Yellow and Orange for all 600 wiring. the again I have seen a lot of Red, black Blue too.


As per the CEC, *4-036(3)(c)*, Red Black Blue is the correct colors to use. 

Orange Brown Yellow, is the trade practice. Never seen it Brown Yellow Orange. 


Orange Brown Yellow as per the CEC, *24-208(c)* is for isolated systems only.


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## gardiner (Sep 25, 2007)

Funny never found the color code rule in the CEC must be looking in the wrong area. Just what section and code for that rule?


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## Toronto Sparky (Apr 12, 2009)

@ 600v/3P load is aprox 1 Amp per horse power


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Jeff000 said:


> As per the CEC, *4-036(3)(c)*, Red Black Blue is the correct colors to use.
> 
> Orange Brown Yellow, is the trade practice. Never seen it Brown Yellow Orange.


That makes no sense. The code says RBB but the trade practice is OBY??? :wacko:


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

Not only are 600 volt systems up in Canada, they are all over the south right here in the USA. Mostly textile plants. I have never ever seen any 3 phase markings in the factories. They may have it marked at the POCO switchgear. All you have is 3 phase and single phase 208 in these plants. No high legs or stupid crap like that. The 3 phase panels and switches are not marked. That may be due to the textile state of mind. Or a southern thing. Our voltages were nominal 600, but in reality it was 575. Buying equipment is a challenge.
And NO, it's not any more dangerous than 460.
It does make things a bit easier as with motors. A 500 HP motor @575-600 is close to 500 amps. I amp per HP.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

John Valdes said:


> Not only are 600 volt systems up in Canada, they are all over the south right here in the USA.


There are still a few remaining 600 volt systems in old mill and factory buildings here in New England, but they are 600 volt delta, not the 600/347 wye system that is used in Canada.


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## Jeff000 (Jun 18, 2008)

Peter D said:


> That makes no sense. The code says RBB but the trade practice is OBY??? :wacko:


I am pretty sure the trade practice was from before the CEC made mention of it. 

Its one thing that's never called though. Unless there is an isolated system in the building too.


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## gardiner (Sep 25, 2007)

In truth the section 4-036 states "Where colour coded cirucits are required...." If you read this then its only when required by someone the code really does not say who is to require it and I have not seen anywhere in the code where it actually requires the colours for any specific instance. 
As a result that is the reason I stated it really is not mandated in the CEC. and the reason you see the Orange brown yellow or yellow brown orange depending on phase rotation.


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## Jeff000 (Jun 18, 2008)

gardiner said:


> In truth the section 4-036 states "Where colour coded cirucits are required...." If you read this then its only when required by someone the code really does not say who is to require it and I have not seen anywhere in the code where it actually requires the colours for any specific instance.
> As a result that is the reason I stated it really is not mandated in the CEC. and the reason you see the Orange brown yellow or yellow brown orange depending on phase rotation.





> 4-036 Colour of conductors
> (1) Insulated grounding or bonding conductors shall
> (a) have a continuous outer finish that is either green or green with one or more yellow stripes; or
> (b) if larger than No. 2 AWG, be permitted to be suitably labelled or marked in a permanent manner
> ...


(3)(a)(b)(c) are where those colors are required.






> 24-208 Three-phase isolated systems (see Appendix B)
> A 3-phase isolated system shall
> (a) supply
> (i) permanently connected medical equipment; or
> ...


Then 24-208 here limits OBY to isolated systems so shouldn't be used for 347/600 anyways.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

So according to the CEC, what do you do when you have a 208 and 600 volt system in the same building?


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## Jeff000 (Jun 18, 2008)

Peter D said:


> So according to the CEC, what do you do when you have a 208 and 600 volt system in the same building?


Red Black Blue, and Red Black Blue. 
Stuff should be labeled anyways. And in pipe you don't know what color anything is anyways.


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## gardiner (Sep 25, 2007)

It uses the words "Where colour-coded circuits are required, the following colour coding shall be used...." it does not say colour coded circuits are required it says 'where' they are required if this was a code then there would be no instances of the other three colours being used the fact they are used and have been used as trade practice states the code is not fully enforceable. I admit RBB is the only colour code the CEC mentions, it just does not say you have to have it in play


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## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

Peter D said:


> So according to the CEC, what do you do when you have a 208 and 600 volt system in the same building?


Nothing in particular, I don't think. I'm working on such a building right now. You can't really tell a 347/600 wire from a 120/208 so you just have to "know" based on the equipment it's connected to or the box it's coming out of. We used Red-Black-Blue throughout the building for all voltages and labeled all 347 boxes and pipes(the high-tech way - with a Sharpie). The only 600v in this building is in the mechanical room(575v US-made McQuay gear) and one elevator circuit so because it was obvious we didn't expressly label that stuff.

You can't use a normal junction box for a 347 switch though, they are just slightly bigger by what must be 3 to 5% because the devices are bigger too. Only a tiny bit, but just enough to annoy the crap out of you. I once fought with a plastic decora cover plate on a regular box for a couple of minutes till I realised it was a 347 plate. Some metal 347 plates actually say "347v" on them.


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## sparky970 (Mar 19, 2008)

Some of the industrial sites I work at use 575V and 120/208


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Vintage Sounds said:


> Nothing in particular, I don't think. I'm working on such a building right now. You can't really tell a 347/600 wire from a 120/208 so you just have to "know" based on the equipment it's connected to or the box it's coming out of.


Weird. I would have expected some strict rules regarding that, hence the whole purpose of this thread. But it's nice to see you guys debate the CEC like we do the NEC. :thumbup:



> You can't use a normal junction box for a 347 switch though, they are just slightly bigger by what must be 3 to 5% because the devices are bigger too.


Why are the switches bigger? Do they have arc chutes in them or something like that?


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## Jeff000 (Jun 18, 2008)

Peter D said:


> Weird. I would have expected some strict rules regarding that, hence the whole purpose of this thread. But it's nice to see you guys debate the CEC like we do the NEC. :thumbup:
> 
> 
> 
> Why are the switches bigger? Do they have arc chutes in them or something like that?


The CEC gets debated a lot on the job. The only place 347/600 is used are places where only qualified electricians do work. Thats why no special bright orange warning signs on it. 

Its to prevent you using a 120v switch in on a 347 circuit. A 120 switch only survives one flip of the switch. 
Much like you can't put different rated MH bulbs in a socket not rated for it. 

They do have a ground screw on the 347 switches. But I hardly see it used.


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## Mike_586 (Mar 24, 2009)

Peter D said:


> That makes no sense. The code says RBB but the trade practice is OBY??? :wacko:


Red Black Blue is the rule, its just not strictly enforced and ECs get away with using different colors because it doesn't get noticed, the inspector doesn't care or they simply don't get the work inspected. 

EDIT: The other color code is strictly for isolated systems. I've seen it used in old instalations that predate my time in the trade but to be honest I've never seen anyone that was getting a job inspected use anything but the standard colors.

Another thing to keep in mind is that, just like in the US, different parts of the country seem to have some rules that simply aren't enforced at all for whatever reasons the locals have decided.



John Valdes said:


> Not only are 600 volt systems up in Canada, they are all over the south right here in the USA.


On the flip side of the coin, I've seen a few dozen buildings around here with 277/480 



Peter D said:


> There are still a few remaining 600 volt systems in old mill and factory buildings here in New England, but they are 600 volt delta, not the 600/347 wye system that is used in Canada.


Wye systems are by far the most common but we also use a lot of delta systems for various applications as well.



Peter D said:


> Weird. I would have expected some strict rules regarding that, hence the whole purpose of this thread. But it's nice to see you guys debate the CEC like we do the NEC. :thumbup:
> 
> Why are the switches bigger? Do they have arc chutes in them or something like that?


There are strict rules about two different systems (weather they are the same voltage or not) entering the same enclosure or device. Other than that the one thing I've been seeing a lot of over the last 10 years has been that a lot of customers are specifying that the various systems in a building be color coded.

Typically its been like the following:
Yellow - 120V/208V
Yellow/Red - 120V/208V emergency power(somtimes its half and half, others its a red stripe)
Blue - 347V/600V
Blue/Red - 347V/600V emergency power
Red - Fire Alarm

Some places (usually government and institutions) also specify that we color code the conduits with wraps of tape within a couple feet of every box and wall/floor penetration.

As far as why 347V switches are bigger, the internals aren't really any different than a 120V spec grade switch. The parts are just a little thicker and built with a little more heft to handle the extra power and consequently the switches are slightly larger. Compared to a cheapie switch you'd use in a house the difference is huge, but next to a 120V spec grade the difference isn't that big. So a slight bigger switch with almost 3x the voltage gets a little extra space for safety's sake.


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## Toronto Sparky (Apr 12, 2009)

I always thought that was one of the reasons we carry testers?
A Red #12 carries about the same current as a Blue #12
I believe only the white wire and the green wire is mentioned in the code books.


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## sparky105 (Sep 29, 2009)

Toronto Sparky said:


> I always thought that was one of the reasons we carry testers?
> A Red #12 carries about the same current as a Blue #12
> I believe only the white wire and the green wire is mentioned in the code books.


I totally agree people get to rapped up with color. The lack of color codes only confuse people that are untrained. The trained Electrician should be able to figure it out with meter and trouble shooting skills identify neutrals and grounds. the meter will identify the reset


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## Mountain Electrician (Jan 22, 2007)

Peter D said:


> There are still a few remaining 600 volt systems in old mill and factory buildings here in New England, but they are 600 volt delta, not the 600/347 wye system that is used in Canada.


I do some work at a sawmill here whose service is a 600/347 wye.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

I have see few 600Y347 In Wisconsin as well but not too widespread unless you got a bunch of large arse motors then it will be norm to see it.

However in France we do have higher voltage in our system but not too wide spread 660Y382 volts 50 HZ that typically used on larger motour circuits.

As far for colour codes we are no better than what we see in USA/ Canada side at all.

{ sometime back I did posted the French conductor colour codes but if requested I can able posted again for you }

Merci,Marc


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## Electric Al (Mar 13, 2010)

I worked for seven years at an open pit iron ore mine, and some motors and equipment were 4,160 volt. In the pit, the P.H.shovels,and the Quarrymaster drills, were fed by trailing cables. We had very strict procedure and safety rules. All switch houses , J.Boxes, and cables were numbered. We kept track of all the equipment in a log book, which had to be constantly updated. Lap top computers would have been great. This was in the sixties and seventies.

LOTS OF FUN. I never saw anyone get hurt in the seven years that I was there. NOISY and DUSTY.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Mountain Electrician said:


> I do some work at a sawmill here whose service is a 600/347 wye.


Let me guess...it's owned by a Canadian company or near the Canadian border.


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## Electric Al (Mar 13, 2010)

The mine was owned by Pickands-Mather from Cleveland Ohio. The mine was in Quebec,Canada.


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