# Occupancy sensor in stairwells



## Black Dog

jrannis said:


> Occupancy sensor in stairwells
> Has anyone had a negative experience with local building officials over using these in an energy saving program?
> The type we are looking into are latching.
> This means that if there is a power failure and the generator comes on, the sensors will stay at what ever state they were in before the failure.
> 
> Thoughts, comments?


I would ask the electrical inspector to see if you can do that.

What type of lights?


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## coolright

Funny you bring this up. 

Just had a supplier come in and show me us an LED to replace the T8s in the stairwells and adding sensors. The sensor would keep lighting at 10% until someone entered the stairwell. Then would ramp the LEDS up to 100% at landing and the landings 1 floor above and below. After that it would light in the direction that the travel was. In a Emergency all units on all floors would go to 100% for egress. 

I'm told that some of the larger universities around the Boston area are using them with no issue. Not sure if its just a sales pitch, haven't had time to look into it fully.


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## Michigan Master

We use occupancy sensors in all our stairwells (and many other locations) and we haven't had any issues. In case of power failure, we have standard emergency lighting that comes on. Only some of our locations have generator backup and that's basically only to power the server rooms and shipping offices so we can still send product from warehousing during an outage.


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## Southeast Power

I just got off the phone with the Leviton engineer.
The device we are looking are latching relays.
The relay is forced into an "on" position by use of a capacitor when the logic detects a failure in the sensor circuit.
So, when the light stays on constant, that indicates a sensor has failed.
They are model# OFSHU-ITW if anyone is interested.


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## Wirenuting

jrannis said:


> I just got off the phone with the Leviton engineer.
> The device we are looking are latching relays.
> The relay is forced into an "on" position by use of a capacitor when the logic detects a failure in the sensor circuit.
> So, when the light stays on constant, that indicates a sensor has failed.
> They are model# OFSHU-ITW if anyone is interested.


Do they work with both LED and fluorescent fixtures?

The office rehab I'm doing will have a mixture of fixtures, old, new, ect.. The prints only say to use duel technology sensors. 
The engineering department has been disbanded and we have nothing more then 2 year old prints to work from.


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## Southeast Power

Wirenuting said:


> Do they work with both LED and fluorescent fixtures?
> 
> The office rehab I'm doing will have a mixture of fixtures, old, new, ect.. The prints only say to use duel technology sensors.
> The engineering department has been disbanded and we have nothing more then 2 year old prints to work from.


These are PIR only.
PM me and I will pass along the Leviton application engineers direct number.


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## chicken steve

Although spec'd by an archy, i refused to install proximity detectors for the last stairwell lighting locally

The ahj backed me up too!


~CS~


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## Southeast Power

Steve,
These are twin 30 story buildings with hundreds of fixtures in stairwells that are on 24/7 that one even sees but maybe once a month or so.
Every spot in the stairwell has 3 fixtures in direct sight.


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## Pete m.

As a general rule egress lighting must be maintained at ALL times a building is occupied.

My 2 cent would be that as long as the egress lighting in the stair towers maintained at least 1 foot candle at the floor level regardless of normal or emergency power you would be ok.

Pete


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## Southeast Power

Pete,
In theory,
You couldn't catch the lights in the off position as they would trigger when the door is open.
It would maybe be like the refrigerator light mystery or a bad verision of
Schrodingers egress?


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## chicken steve

Jrannis

Is this an energy retro ?

~CS~


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## Southeast Power

Energy codes

In consideration of energy codes and emergency lighting—and unless specifically prohibited—NFPA 101-7.8.1.2.2 and 3 will allow lighting controls in areas of means of egress. The switch controllers must be listed and have a fail-safe feature, the “on” function must provide a minimum of 15 minutes of illumination, the motion sensor must be activated by occupant movement, and the controller must be activated by the building fire alarm system, if provided. The energy-saving control devices shall not compromise the integrity of the emergency illumination system. Thorough review of proposed lighting control solutions along with the emergency lighting egress plans with the AHJ should preclude any undesirable project outcomes.


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## chicken steve

Seems that 101 code , as well as the EX to 210.70 certainly allows for proximity detection>

_



Exception to (A)(2)(a), (A)(2)(b), and (A)(2)(c): In hall-
ways, in stairways, and at outdoor entrances, remote, cen-
tral, or automatic control of lighting shall be permitted.

Click to expand...

_So , can we assume we've a_ 'dueling code' _situation, where some other code addresses public egress illumination on 24/7 ?


~CS~


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## Southeast Power

I am back to hanging on to this :
In consideration of energy codes and emergency lighting—and unless specifically prohibited—NFPA 101-7.8.1.2.2 and 3 will allow lighting controls in areas of means of egress. The switch controllers must be listed and have a fail-safe feature, the “on” function must provide a minimum of 15 minutes of illumination, the motion sensor must be activated by occupant movement

We should be in plan review this week.


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## chicken steve

I suppose if you can get all factions to agree , it's a go Jrannis. 

Myself i can't seem to get the_ 'powers that be' _to agree on a cup of coffee....


~CS~


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## Cincycaddy

Are you guys installing OC sensors as part of code compliance or just for energy savings?


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## Southeast Power

Cincycaddy said:


> Are you guys installing OC sensors as part of code compliance or just for energy savings?


This is an energy project.
ROI is less than 1year.


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## Southeast Power

The plans went through fire and electrical plan review and we completed the job.
All of the sensors work perfectly and we didn't have a single failure.
I called for a final inspection.
It was the only inspection they wanted.
The inspector arrived.
He seemed very confused about the whole concept.
The thought that if one of the sensors failed, none of the rest of them would work.
He couldn't get that out of his head.
I showed him that each one was stand alone and that a ballast or lamp failure would be more likely than a single switch failure.
He thought it would be better if we left one on 24/7 every few floors.
I mentioned to him that we would always have 5x the required foot candles when someone entered and, a miminum of two sensors would fire, the door that was opened and at least one landing.
He started calling around to find someone to agree that it was a problem.
He couldn't find one.
He said I had to go back to the building department and ask the fire plan reviewer if he was sure that it was OK.
I told him that everyone had done their job.
Electrical Engineer has designed and sealed it.
Fire had received and approved it
Electrical had reviewed and approved it
I installed it
His job was to see if it was installed according to the approved plans.
Everyone has done their job except him.
I asked him to either pass or fail it.
He would do neither.
I have approved, sign/sealed plans.
I told him that if the owner was required to remove them, I would be happy to do so at the same rate we installed them. So I didn't give a crap if he approved the job or not.
Now I have to waste my time going to the City building department to ask a professional plan reviewer; " are you sure?"


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## McClary’s Electrical

jrannis said:


> This is an energy project.
> ROI is less than 1year.


No friggin way


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## Southeast Power

mcclary's electrical said:


> No friggin way


10 months


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## chicken steve

*Bravo* Jrannis! :thumbup:You're ability to get _all _bureaucrats on the same page is obviously beyond that of _mere_ mortals :laughing:~CS~


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## Southeast Power

We installed the job and it works perfectly.
I called for an electrical final.
The electrical inspector refuses to pass the job and wants the fire plan reviewer to write him a personal note saying that's it's ok to install the occupancy sensors.
The fire plan reviewer won't do it and is looking like he is beginning to side with the electrical inspector.
Something like.
It was suggested that we remove 1/2 of them.
I think it will cost me an extra $30,000 to pay off the supplier, remove 1/2 of them, and give the customer a 50% refund.
I installed the project according to the approved plans.
It should be a fun day at the building department...


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## Cincycaddy

Can you leave the fixture in place and bypass the occ sensor on the units that they 'require' to be on 24/7?


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## Pete m.

jrannis said:


> We installed the job and it works perfectly.
> I called for an electrical final.
> The electrical inspector refuses to pass the job and wants the fire plan reviewer to write him a personal note saying that's it's ok to install the occupancy sensors.
> The fire plan reviewer won't do it and is looking like he is beginning to side with the electrical inspector.
> Something like.
> It was suggested that we remove 1/2 of them.
> I think it will cost me an extra $30,000 to pay off the supplier, remove 1/2 of them, and give the customer a 50% refund.
> I installed the project according to the approved plans.
> It should be a fun day at the building department...


The Fire plan reviewer did write the EI a personal note accepting the installation when he/she marked the plans as approved.

Can't speak to the law where you are but in Ohio if you have an approved set of construction drawings you are granted a "license" to build to those documents. The only instance that I know of where you would be required to deviate by an inspector would be where an* imminent *life safety hazard is found in the design after the fact.

I would demand from the Building Official (or whatever you guys call the top dog there) that they either approve your installation or reject it and issue an adjudication order citing the code that is in violation to begin the appeal process. The appeal will take time but the expense sounds like it will be less.

Pete


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## Southeast Power

Cincycaddy said:


> Can you leave the fixture in place and bypass the occ sensor on the units that they 'require' to be on 24/7?


They do not have a bypass or "on" mode.


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## Southeast Power

I spoke to the person in charge of the electrical department.
He took me over to the fire reviewer. It seems like they can't come up with anything that will trump 7.8.1.2.2. It's very specific and even calls out the setting of the timer.

7.8.1 General. 

7.8.1.1* Illumination of means of egress shall be provided in accordance with Section 7.8 for every building and structure where required in Chapters 11 through 43. For the purposes of this requirement, exit access shall include only designated stairs, aisles, corridors, ramps, escalators, and passageways leading to an exit. For the purposes of this requirement, exit discharge shall include only designated stairs, aisles, corridors, ramps, escalators, walkways, and exit passageways leading to a public way. 



7.8.1.2 Illumination of means of egress shall be continuous during the time that the conditions of occupancy require that the means of egress be available for use, unless otherwise provided in 7.8.1.2.2.


7.8.1.2.1 Artificial lighting shall be employed at such locations and for such periods of time as are necessary to maintain the illumination to the minimum criteria values herein specified.



7.8.1.2.2 Unless prohibited by Chapters 11 through 43, automatic, motion sensor–type lighting switches shall be permitted within the means of egress, provided that the switch controllers comply with all of the following: 


· (1)
The switch controllers are listed.
· (2)
The switch controllers are equipped for fail-safe operation and evaluated for this purpose.
· (3)
The illumination timers are set for a minimum 15-minute duration.
· (4)
The motion sensor is activated by any occupant movement in the area served by the lighting units.
· (5)
The switch controller is activated by activation of the building fire alarm system, if provided.


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## Southeast Power

The plan reviewer pulled out 7.8.1.4 and started with the "what if" scenarios.
What if one unit fails.
I told him that it would be more likely to have both lamps fail or a ballast fail than a switch.
He said that if one failed, a 80 year old lady in heels entered the failed area and tripped?
I told him that building codes have never included a fill in the blank "what if" and that the code panel considered all of the "what if " when they wrote the final section.
I asked him what if he opened the door to the stairs and a big scary clown with an ax was on the other side?

He abruptly ended the meeting and told me to go see the Fire Marshall.

(4)* The minimum illumination requirements shall not apply where operations or
processes require low lighting levels.
7.8.1.4* Required illumination shall be arranged so that the failure of any single lighting unit does not result in an illumination level of less than 0.2 ft-candle (2.2 lux) in any designated area.
7.8.1.5 The equipment or units installed to meet the requirements of Section 7.10 also shall be permitted to serve the function of illumination of means of egress, provided that all requirements of Section 7.8 for such illumination are met.


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## Cincycaddy

jrannis said:


> I asked him what if he opened the door to the stairs and a big scary clown with an ax was on the other side?


I dunno, but I sure hope the egress lighting works so I can get the hell out of there...... Great response to his/her what ifs!!!


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## Southeast Power

The assistant to the Fire Marshall is trying to say that the sensors need to be listed as UL 924 like a battery powered exit light.
I mentioned that they do not have a battery and that they were all regular existing lamp and ballast fixtures connected to an EM panel, all on the load side of a UL 924 ATS. 
I have a field meeting with the Fire Marshalls' assistant this morning.
Could be "make or break"


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## NacBooster29

Why is it your job to prove an installation, that was designed by someone else? Where is the ee? 
Shouldn't this be his problem?


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## Electric_Light

Smells like decorative solid state fluorescent light.


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## LGLS

We installed occupancy sensors in egress stairwells on a recent job. Luckily, the building is owned by the city, so the inspections are focused on contract compliance more than code compliance. The stairwells had 1/2 the lighting constant, and that satisfied the minimum required for egress illumination. The other 1/2 was controlled by the occupancy sensors. The entire idea was a stupid waste of money because the minimum level was more than enough to safely illuminate and the additional fixtures added when you entered the stairwells was more of an annoyance than a convenience.


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## Southeast Power

I had a meeting with the building manager.
They want to hold just over a 1/3 of the funds until they get a final inspection.
I sent them over a proposal for the remediation and they said the my price was excessive and unreasonable.
They signed an agreement with me that I would be paid in full when the project is in installed and in use for the benefit of the owner.
They owe me about $12k.
The installed product is saving them almost twice as much as the salesman calculated. They thought it would be about 3k a month savings. It turned out to be almost 6k per month savings.
All of this and I am the greedy bastard...


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## Pete m.

jrannis said:


> I had a meeting with the building manager.
> They want to hold just over a 1/3 of the funds until they get a final inspection.
> I sent them over a proposal for the remediation and they said the my price was excessive and unreasonable.
> They signed an agreement with me that I would be paid in full when the project is in installed and in use for the benefit of the owner.
> They owe me about $12k.
> The installed product is saving them almost twice as much as the salesman calculated. They thought it would be about 3k a month savings. It turned out to be almost 6k per month savings.
> All of this and I am the greedy bastard...


So where does this stand with the inspector(s)? 

Pete


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## Electric_Light

jrannis said:


> I had a meeting with the building manager.
> They want to hold just over a 1/3 of the funds until they get a final inspection.
> I sent them over a proposal for the remediation and they said the my price was excessive and unreasonable.
> They signed an agreement with me that I would be paid in full when the project is in installed and in use for the benefit of the owner.
> They owe me about $12k.
> The installed product is saving them almost twice as much as the salesman calculated. They thought it would be about 3k a month savings. It turned out to be almost 6k per month savings.
> All of this and I am the greedy bastard...


Please show the math and explanation so I can rip it apart.


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## Southeast Power

Pete m. said:


> So where does this stand with the inspector(s)?
> 
> Pete


It was mysteriously finaled...


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## Southeast Power

Electric_Light said:


> Please show the math and explanation so I can rip it apart.


I have no numbers.
They just told me that the house electric bill was reduced by $6,000.
We installed about 380 sensors on 2 lamp T8 fixtures.
68 watts each * 380. 
About 26,000 watts per hour @ 11 cents per kw
$2.86 per hour x 24 = $68.64 per day
$68.64 * 30 = $2059.2

I thought the $3000 they calculated was a stretch.
They must have something going on with their demand, WTFDIK?


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## Electric_Light

jrannis said:


> I have no numbers.
> They just told me that the house electric bill was reduced by $6,000.
> We installed about 380 sensors on 2 lamp T8 fixtures.
> 68 watts each * 380.
> About 26,000 watts per hour @ 11 cents per kw
> $2.86 per hour x 24 = $68.64 per day
> $68.64 * 30 = $2059.2
> 
> I thought the $3000 they calculated was a stretch.
> They must have something going on with their demand, WTFDIK?


I wouldn't say it's quite as you said. If it was a claim of non-performance, would you not require a stronger evidence than "customer thinks"? There should be more auditing clauses against energy sales company reps. I would inspect the numbers much more thoroughly if the numbers are used to support ROI, more particularly if they're LEDs. 

Your calculation says 24hr/day to 0 minutes per day. Is this true? 
68W/fixture is unreasonable. 55-58W/fixture is more reasonable. If this is challenged, ballast manufacturer should be contacted for performance specs for that lot of the ballast with the type of lamps in-situ. If the installer disputes the claim, I would send the ballasts in for energy performance testing. 

I would reduce the total demand estimate to 21-22kW. Demand saving depends on how many of them actually remains on during the peak demand usage. 

Where did you get 11c/kWh? I would investigate this deeper if dollar figures were used to make carbon foot print claims especially if LEDs are involved.
Industrial rate of 8c/kWh and commercial rate of 10c/kWh for State of Florida according to EIA average. 

I estimate 16,060kWh/mo if the usage went from 24/7 to nearly zero hours or $1,600/mo energy bill savings. Demand saving depends on the bill structure, building load profile and number of fixtures that are left-on at building peak kW. 



jrannis said:


> They thought it would be about 3k a month savings. It turned out to be almost 6k per month savings.
> All of this and I am the greedy bastard...


What you said suggests possible correlation, but does not prove it.


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