# Prices for Loaning my Crew



## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

what do you charge a customer when you send a guy or crew?
start from there and adjust according to what the market will bear


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

Check with your accountant and lawyer first before even thinking of this.
If he is telling you what, when and how to do it it is not legal.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Tenx said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I was approached by a GC and he told me he has a lot of jobs but not enough guys. I’m a master electrician with my crew and we do jobs but I’m having issues landing bids and pricing. I’m considering loaning him my guys and myself. How much is a normal chargefor each on of my guys? How much more can I charge for each guy and myself? Help!


You will need to know your cost and the cost of all of the overhead involved. Hint, it should be the cost you use on estimating any job. Your business is going to demand some profit to carry itself. 
If you have zero overhead, no trucks, no rent, and no storage costs if you are debt free. 
Double your salary cost including what you need for burden, That's you only. Charge that for you.
Take that amount and divide it by the number of people you are loaning out.
Take the cost of each of your crew and add that amount to it:
Example: 
Your salary is $100 per hour
Double that amount for you only
Boss/ Supervision $200 per hour

Loaner crew:
A crew of 5 with $200 per hour divided across your crew:
#1 $50 per hour plus $40 per hour = $90 per hour
#2 $50 per hour plus $ 40 per hour = $90 per hour
#3 $30 per hour plus $ 40 per hour = $70 per hour
#4 $25 per hour plus $ 40 per hour = $65 per hour
#5 $20 per hour plus $ 40 per hour = $ 60 per hour

If the GC only wants 4 guys, divide the $200 across 4 guys.

This will at least give you some cash to stay relevant .

No one should balk at $200 per hour for taking your crew out of action.


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## Djea3 (Mar 8, 2019)

just the cowboy said:


> If he is telling you what, when and how to do it it is not legal.


Actually, it is totally legal, however it creates an employment condition where the GC must assure unemployment and workers comp are covered as well as taxes withheld and paid. It is joint employment for all employees and that does not really affect the EC as much as the GC, although IF the EC is an employee in a corporation and works like this, worker's comp etc could not usually be waived as in close corporation.
With regard to the EC, it is standard operating procedure in almost every state that an EC must qualify the company (a company is a legal person who can not take a test). the only legal issue is whether an EC can qualify more than one entity in your state because IF you are "joint venturing" you are placing your license at disposal of the GC depending.

Your accountant DOES need to help you figure out your total overhead per man and per equipment. I guaranty that your men cost you at LEAST 20% of wage in taxes etc alone depending on local conditions for Workers Comp etc. A $28 man costs you $34 without any profit or vehicles or equipment etc. Then there is equipment that they drive for you and travel expenses on the job (that is fuel plus driving cost plus depreciation). Then your profit must be included along with depreciation of all OTHER equipment (concrete saws, man lifts ad nauseum) . Consider local rental values for equipment is easiest, discount a little.
I can tell you this, every EC I know charges at least 65 or more per man on good deals for fill in work. They sometimes list apprentices, lead men, Journeymen and masters all separate values in a contract like this.
Lastly, this is a FILL IN job for you. 
Make sure that the GC agrees that your company contracts have priority but that you will make full attempt to meet his needs and schedules. He is not "leasing your business".

I would only consider this if I earned at least my wage plus 15+% on the total overhead as I described above. That isn't much margin for the risk of not getting paid on time.


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

Djea3 said:


> Actually, it is totally legal, however it creates an employment condition where the GC must assure unemployment and workers comp are covered as well as taxes withheld and paid.


This is what I was getting at, most EC's think a 1099 works for this


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## Veteran Sparky (Apr 21, 2021)

just the cowboy said:


> This is what I was getting at, *most EC's think a 1099 works for this*


Really? Electricians in your area must be pretty unedumicated.


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## Djea3 (Mar 8, 2019)

just the cowboy said:


> This is what I was getting at, most EC's think a 1099 works for this


1099's can be used for many things. However you are correct that IF you tell someone where to be and when and what needs done then you are an "employer in fact". Not just a statutory employer at all. this means that you are responsible to withhold all taxes, pay insurances including unemployment. Failure to do so CAN BE a criminal offense. It is usually handled as a 100% penalty with interest and agreements. Failure to follow agreements would be VERY bad.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Veteran Sparky said:


> Really? Electricians in your area must be pretty unedumicated.


Education isn't cheap, and neither is a WC audit


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Tenx said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I was approached by a GC and he told me he has a lot of jobs but not enough guys. I’m a master electrician with my crew and we do jobs but I’m having issues landing bids and pricing. I’m considering loaning him my guys and myself. How much is a normal chargefor each on of my guys? How much more can I charge for each guy and myself? Help!


The structure must be you invoicing the GC. Unless the GC is an EC or, if your crew is doing carpenter or mud trade work, they can work for the GC. Just be careful the GC doesn't ask your crew to do plumbing or HVAC work while they are working under your license, they can get popped here in Florida for working out of scope. That will be a board appearance and a fine and or suspension.


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## ohm it hertz (Dec 2, 2020)

I wouldn't loan my worst enemy to a general contractor. They would sit there and try to figure out how to rip each other off.


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

Most people just figure actual overhead plus a small profit. You have to figure there is almost zero risk to you since you’re basically just handling the financials. If you go by what the temp agencies charge they usually take 35% off the top. So if you have a guy making $25 an hour you’d charge that divided by .65 or $38.50/hour. Might be more depending on what your labor costs actually are. Most of the time if I figure “full benefits” these days just take the labor cost and double it. So $25 an hour becomes $50 an hour.

The other way to look at it is if you are short on labor you can charge for the job you would have done. So if you charge $75 per houser, charge that. If it’s “long term” like weeks take 15-20% off.

Most people are shocked at how much labor really costs.


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## CADPoint (Jul 5, 2007)

I've seen bills that stated openly everything about each employee, Taxes, retirement, etc.
I just forgot what the markup was... I do tend to agree with Paul's first sentence.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

This could not be done in my state.


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## SWDweller (Dec 9, 2020)

"loaning" is not a good clear term. So much is left unknown here. Payroll through the GC? you?

Biggie, when working are they your employees or do all of you dance to the new drummer.

I suggest you iron out the details then go spend 3-4 hours with your attorney and an hour with your CPA before you sign anything. Just thought of this, workman com and insurance. Better go talk to them as well. If you have benefits how will that work. I am sure this is doable, and even beneficial.
You might even meet some new business contacts. 

Heads up, eyes open, radar and sonar both pining.


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## Wardenclyffe (Jan 11, 2019)

_Subcontracting_ is the practice of assigning, or outsourcing, part of the obligations and tasks under a contract to another party known as a subcontractor.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

How about a blunt answer? 

Your question isn't real clear but I'd bet this is a general contractor that sees a green, struggling electrical contractor he can exploit for a little while and get some work for cheap. In other words the GC is a shark and you are a bleeding fish. If the bleeding fish asked me for advice, I'd recommend they swim away from the shark, not towards it. 



Tenx said:


> I’m a master electrician with my crew and we do jobs but I’m having issues landing bids and pricing.


Work is plentiful right now (and it might not be for much longer). Don't waste time trying to figure out some oddball arrangement. You think he's giving you a stick to pull you out of the quicksand but that's a harpoon in his hand. Put all your effort into figuring out how to make money as a regular contractor doing regular work on regular contracts. Figure out how to estimate and how to win work at profitable prices. It's not going to get easier and there's no way forward without figuring that out. 

If it's too late, tell the GC he can buy your business and hire your employees for a price and a contract with you as master of record. Get a good lawyer and make him pay your lawyer's fees to draw it up.


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## Djea3 (Mar 8, 2019)

splatz said:


> and hire your employees for a price and a contract with you as master of record. Get a good lawyer and make him pay your lawyer's fees to draw it up.


If you do move forward with the GC, splatz is most likely correct. It might be better to become a qualifier for him. If you do that you need to know how much a qualifier gets paid for the qualification, and as you will be responsible for all work done under your license, you need to be paid separately for your actual work. Both need to be professional level pay for your licensed and yourself, not just Master level. You would still have liability and some risk. I asked about a qualifier one time and found numbers that freaked me out. X,XXX per month PLUS travel and inspection fees for every job.

You need to do a FULL background check including financial on this guy if you move forward at all. You probably need an accountant to look over the entirely of his books, especially P&L and payables receivables. IF HIS BOOKS ARE NOT UP TO DATE, if he is paying 30,60,90 or using a lot of credit that is not closed out regularly....RUN. Too many businessmen use way too much credit. A slow down will collapse the house of cards.

Actually, the GC needs to reimburse for your attorney/accountancy in this kind of deal. It is a cost directly attributable to any agreement and he is the one that wants it, but the attorney/accountant MUST be YOURS, not his.


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

I imagine morale will take a hit when a GC has them installing insulation in a hot attic.

Look at the other side of the trade. How would you respond to your employer telling you as an electrician that you're going to remove and replace a septic system next week.


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