# Romex Bundled togerther in attic



## Wbangs (Oct 6, 2012)

Is this common practice? I move to Texas a few years back from Minnesota and when I came down here to Texas, I see this quite often. Here's a bundle of 20 cables of romex group together for about 25 feet. Article 310.15 B (3) Adjustment factors will de-rate this to 35 percent which makes 14 AWG 8.75 amps. What is common practice where you guys are at?


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

Wbangs said:


> What is common practice where you guys are at?


Not bundling.


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## Mshea (Jan 17, 2011)

It is a violation here and I would fail that job for the reasons you offer.


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## Wbangs (Oct 6, 2012)

It says,


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## Wbangs (Oct 6, 2012)

thegoldenboy said:


> Not bundling.


It says, ---Where the number of current-carrying
conductors in a raceway or cable exceeds three, or where
single conductors or multi conductor cables are installed
without maintaining spacing for a continuous length longer
than 600 mm (24 in.) and are not installed in raceways, the
allowable ampacity of each conductor shall be reduced as
shown in Table 310.15(B)(3)(a). :jester:


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

Wbangs said:


> It says, Where the number of current-carrying
> conductors in a raceway or cable exceeds three, or where
> single conductors or multi conductor cables are installed
> without maintaining spacing for a continuous length longer
> ...


Did you really find it necessary to highlight it in yellow? :blink:


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

Wbangs said:


> It says, ---Where the number of current-carrying
> conductors in a raceway or cable exceeds three, or where
> single conductors or multi conductor cables are installed
> without maintaining spacing for a continuous length longer
> ...


I'm aware of what the Code says, thanks. 

You asked what was common practice in my area. 

Not bundling.


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## Wbangs (Oct 6, 2012)




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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

I do not know what part of TX you are working in, but I worked there in Brazos County for a bit and they did things different that I have to do here in Shelby County. Some more strict and some that in my opinion violated code.
Different regions do things their own way, you just have to adjust.
Here is a thread I posted on what I saw being acceptable while working in Texas.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Anyone ever hear about a bunch of romex bursting out in flame because of bundling.. :no:


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

B4T said:


> Anyone ever hear about a bunch of romex bursting out in flame because of bundling.. :no:


Not I.
But my wife's head seemed to burst into flames one day when I asked her to get a job while being "that time of the month".:whistling2:


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## Wbangs (Oct 6, 2012)

B4T said:


> Anyone ever hear about a bunch of romex bursting out in flame because of bundling.. :no:


The attic here in Texas get so hot it melted all my candles about 150 degrees add that on top a bunch of conductors bundled now you got to derate because I heat as well. I sure wouldn't do it my house.


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## xlink (Mar 12, 2012)

If you add together all the wires leaving a panel they probably total in ampacity about double the panel rating. So, they're already derated to 50 percent on average, based on the main over-current protection.


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## butcher733 (Aug 4, 2012)

xlink said:


> If you add together all the wires leaving a panel they probably total in ampacity about double the panel rating. So, they're already derated to 50 percent on average, based on the main over-current protection.


Please show me where I missed the Sarcasm. I can't believe your serious.


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## Wbangs (Oct 6, 2012)

butcher733 said:


> Please show me where I missed the Sarcasm. I can't believe your serious.


Are we the kind of people that do the bare minimum just to get buy. Or are we Electricians that do it the right and better way. This is simple Cac 101 combined with high heat in attic and plastic that does dissipate heat. Tell me that 100% safe.


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## xlink (Mar 12, 2012)

butcher733 said:


> Please show me where I missed the Sarcasm. I can't believe your serious.


I've been trying to figure out why I staple my wires beside the panel and everyone else gets away with a bundle of wires held together with another piece of wire. Everyone says they don't bundle the wires, but I never see it the other way. I also never see the bundle heating. I'd love to see a consensus on the issue because I hate losing jobs knowing the other guys cut corners like this.

I don't want to be sarcastic. I would like an open, honest discussion without belittling guys who do it differently. Maybe they are right.


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## Wbangs (Oct 6, 2012)

xlink said:


> I've been trying to figure out why I staple my wires beside the panel and everyone else gets away with a bundle of wires held together with another piece of wire. Everyone says they don't bundle the wires, but I never see it the other way. I also never see the bundle heating. I'd love to see a consensus on the issue because I hate losing jobs knowing the other guys cut corners like this.
> 
> I don't want to be sarcastic. I would like an open, honest discussion without belittling guys who do it differently. Maybe they are right.


I am use to the AHJ in Minnesota never ever allowing it and here in the Dallas Area I see always see cabling together. Like you said it's hard doing it the right way when everyone else is cheating. I do feel better when its neat and safer.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

Wbangs said:


> View attachment 23032


That right there is no bueno.


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## butcher733 (Aug 4, 2012)

Wbangs said:


> Are we the kind of people that do the bare minimum just to get buy. Or are we Electricians that do it the right and better way. This is simple Cac 101 combined with high heat in attic and plastic that does dissipate heat. Tell me that 100% safe.


The main has nothing to do with the cable in the center of that bundle that has an overcurrent/heat failure. Whats cac 101 btw?


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

TOOL_5150 said:


> That right there is no bueno.


It's Texas. Same goes for most parts of Mississippi.


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## Wbangs (Oct 6, 2012)

TOOL_5150 said:


> That right there is no bueno.


thanks for your time


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## Wbangs (Oct 6, 2012)

butcher733 said:


> The main has nothing to do with the cable in the center of that bundle that has an overcurrent/heat failure. Whats cac 101 btw?


I don't care if the main is 200 or 2 million. The fact is if you have a few of those 14-2 cables maxed out at 15 amps bundled together in a 150 degree attic, that could potently break down the conductors insulation over time and create problems down the road. Our wiring methods should last longer then 15-20 years, that's called electrical calculations 101. This has nothing do do with the 200 amp main break that will only trip if there is over 200 amps or a fault. 7 of those 14-2 at 15 amps is only 105 amps, and that could do some major heating. try taking a thermal imaging gun up in the attic the next time on a hot day, you will be surprised.


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## xlink (Mar 12, 2012)

Wbangs said:


> I don't care if the main is 200 or 2 million. The fact is if you have a few of those 14-2 cables maxed out at 15 amps bundled together in a 150 degree attic, that could potently break down the conductors insulation over time and create problems down the road. Our wiring methods should last longer then 15-20 years, that's called electrical calculations 101. This has nothing do do with the 200 amp main break that will only trip if there is over 200 amps or a fault. 7 of those 14-2 at 15 amps is only 105 amps, and that could do some major heating. try taking a thermal imaging gun up in the attic the next time on a hot day, you will be surprised.


I just did a fire job where the electrician bundled the wires. It hardly matters about the bundle if the tenant is going to burn the place down with a candle.

Since all these bundles are installed by "nobody" I'm going to add something on nobody's behalf:


Canadian Electrical Code said:


> Tests show that 90 C conductors, continuously loaded, under conditions of 50% fill and 30 C ambient, do not result in a temperature exceeding 75 C ...


Don't bother saying it. I already know. Nobody cares!


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## Wired4Life10 (Jul 9, 2011)

Wbangs said:


> View attachment 23032


ARE THOSE BLACK CABLES RG-6??  

I'm not an electrician but I know that code says don't run LV parallel to HV without 12" spacing.

"Don't run power on my cable unless crossed 90 degrees where necessary."

Being an LV tech, this makes me furious when I see it and require the home owner to pay me to separate the cables. This is crazy if that's truly RG-6 or any LV cable!


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## Wbangs (Oct 6, 2012)

Wired4Life10 said:


> ARE THOSE BLACK CABLES RG-6??
> 
> I'm not an electrician but I know that code says don't run LV parallel to HV without 12" spacing.
> 
> ...


Ya, this is my house and it was built 10 years ago and a lot of the LV is bundled together as we'll. and there is no room to re space it it, the cables are pulled way to tight.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

B4T said:


> Anyone ever hear about a bunch of romex bursting out in flame because of bundling.. :no:


If it was a problem we'd have a lot of fires here :laughing:


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## Toto (Jul 27, 2011)

For no other reason than that someone may need to trace a wire in the future. Please don't bundle like that. That clump of wires will need to be cut apart and the wire followed just to figure out which wire is which down the line. Keep your work clean so that the next guy knows what you were doing and what you were thinking. Run wires side by side in straight lines and avoid criss crossing. It's quality that counts. Same thing as in the panel, keep it clean.


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## Wireless (Jan 22, 2007)

Toto said:


> For no other reason than that someone may need to trace a wire in the future. Please don't bundle like that. That clump of wires will need to be cut apart and the wire followed just to figure out which wire is which down the line. Keep your work clean so that the next guy knows what you were doing and what you were thinking. Run wires side by side in straight lines and avoid criss crossing. It's quality that counts. Same thing as in the panel, keep it clean.


Should we leave the drywall off also? Or maybe use plexiglass so you will have no problem tracing wires 15 years from now.


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## Toto (Jul 27, 2011)

yeah no drywall either. Plexi glass if fine if it is removable. Or surface mount the romex in conduit.


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## Wbangs (Oct 6, 2012)

xlink said:


> I just did a fire job where the electrician bundled the wires. It hardly matters about the bundle if the tenant is going to burn the place down with a candle.
> 
> Since all these bundles are installed by "nobody" I'm going to add something on nobody's behalfon't bother saying it. I already know. Nobody cares!


:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## Wbangs (Oct 6, 2012)

you can always tell if people have good standards just by looking at there wife. Here's your sign.


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## Amish Electrician (Jan 2, 2010)

Bundling like that used to be common, at least before they started making those little 'trees.'

Code violation? Sure was- even then. Why were there no problems? Necause the code assumes you size circuits to known loads - the one exception being the convenience circuits in homes. In effect, the derating requirement is a 'commercial' rule applied to 'residential' work. 

Very rarely does any convenience circuit get fully loaded - let alone two of them in the same bundle. Your math tells you to de-rate to 8 amps? Chances are, at any given time none of the circuits are drawing more than 3 amps.

Such bundling is not an issue where the cables have a metal jacket (like MC). 

BTW, I don't think the 'code' says anything about keeping RG-6 a foot away from the 120v lines. I think that's just a 'good practice.' It might even be a BICSI rule. That's not quite the same as 'code.'


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

B4T said:


> Anyone ever hear about a bunch of romex bursting out in flame because of bundling.. :no:


You know that is not the issue-- but continuous build up of heat over time can break down the insulation. Quite frankly I doubt it would ever be an issue.


I heard recently that there is talk about doing away with derating based on bundling even on roof's because they did some testing and found that the temp. never got close to being a problem-- not sure I believe that.


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## Toto (Jul 27, 2011)

I think RG-6 and low voltage does not fall under NEC at all. Should be SBCA or whatever they're called. The feds that regulate phone/cable company standards.


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