# crown molding with screws = accessible?



## Power21 (Jan 26, 2010)

so the GC and customer are both basically demanding that the low volt puck light transformers (which have leads and require a box and hardwiring) be wired in the 4-5 " area on top of the kitchen wall cabinets.... I say "nope, cuz your gonna put crown up and therefore make my boxes and xfmers inaccessible"....GC says "ill use small finish screws that can be removed to mount the crown."

so accessible? - capable of being removed or exposed without damaging the building structure or finish?

I say no and id rather not ask ahj a stupid question before rough-in if i can help it
no one is going to want to leave screw heads visible anyway, they will have putty on them for damn sure

im stuck, these things were going to go inside the wall cabinets in the top corner but they don't want to see them at all, even if they would have to get on a damn stool and look up in the top shelf to see them.

thanks for the help as always gentlemen


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

if it has to be accessible ,id say no, but if they insist and it will float by the ajh, just warn them, 'if i have to get that later it will be with a chain saw':laughing:


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

Couldn't you just pull the puck out to access the wiring? No different than a can light. Quit whining


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## Power21 (Jan 26, 2010)

thanks for the reply and yessir, with a chainsaw and a damn sledge. these xfmers are 120 v primary hardwired so there is a jbox above the cabinet with a switch leg in it... its gotta be accessible even if for some reason the xfmer didn't. I was just wondering if anyone had ever heard this before. I'm always struggling to hide low volt transformers but I've never even considered this before


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## Power21 (Jan 26, 2010)

and i should mention the crown is going tight to the ceiling


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## Jack Legg (Mar 12, 2014)

why does the xformer have to be above the cabinet?
cant you tuck it in the sink base up out of the way?

That's what I normally do, then one romex to each light location


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

Only your AHJ can really answer the question but for what it's worth I would not consider it accessible.

Pete


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## NacBooster29 (Oct 25, 2010)

We wired a mansion and the carpenters made cubby holes in the rear or cabinets within stud bays. With removable covers that we hid all the wiring in. 
In your particular case if they made a distinct removable piece of crown molding i say it would work, but not ideal.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

does the transformer you are installing have specific cooling requirements that are written on it, or in the directions ?


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## B-Nabs (Jun 4, 2014)

I usually run LVT to the approximate location of each puck, above the line of the bottom of the upper cabinet, with the other end going somewhere in the lower cabinets, preferably where there will be drawers. I run my 120v switch leg to that lower location as well. When the uppers go up, have them drill a small hole in the back right at the bottom, bring the LVT into the cabinet, drill hole for puck light, make splice, then cover with a false shelf with a channel cut for the wire running back to the wall. In the lower cabinet, mount the transformer at the very back, as there is almost always about a 2 or 3 inch gap between the back of the drawer and the back of the cabinet. The transformer cannot be seen, but the drawer can be easily removed for service .


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

I sometimes put my drivers in the cabinet above the fridge. It's kind of a useless cabinet anyway. The GC builds a removable box around them.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

So if I have a hydromassage tub and the motor is behind a door with 4 screws- as I have often seen- we would consider that accessible. Then why is the install mentioned above not accessible? IMO it is accessible.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Dennis Alwon said:


> So if I have a hydromassage tub and the motor is behind a door with 4 screws- as I have often seen- we would consider that accessible. Then why is the install mentioned above not accessible? IMO it is accessible.


Because the HO is going to say the screws are ugly and demand that they get filled. You know how it goes...

We often see tubs with tile surrounds and a hidden door. You look for the tile without any grout and that's your access.


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

When I did a lot of residential......I used to install the xfmr and the switch loop in the basement directly under the cabinets......LVT from there to the light locations. Nice easy spot to access the xfmr and JB and work on them later.


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

but what if the basement is finished? you still have to make access to it somehow


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

papaotis said:


> but what if the basement is finished? you still have to make access to it somehow


 Very true, however, 90%+ of the homes in this area have a suspended t-bar ceiling in the basement. Seems to be the normal way of doing things in my area. Very rare to see a drywall ceiling in a basement around here. The couple of times I came across that issue, I mounted the transformer on a wall in the furnace/utility room and did the same thing from there.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

99cents said:


> Because the HO is going to say the screws are ugly and demand that they get filled. You know how it goes...
> 
> We often see tubs with tile surrounds and a hidden door. You look for the tile without any grout and that's your access.


After you're gone a lot of things can get "changed". I'd install and if they cover them up its on them. No one will believe the electrician covered it up with crown.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Power21 said:


> so the GC and customer are both basically demanding that the low volt puck light transformers (which have leads and require a box and hardwiring) be wired in the 4-5 " area on top of the kitchen wall cabinets.... I say "nope, cuz your gonna put crown up and therefore make my boxes and xfmers inaccessible"....GC says "ill use small finish screws that can be removed to mount the crown."
> 
> so accessible? - capable of being removed or exposed without damaging the building structure or finish?
> 
> ...


Readily accessible. Anyone telling you differently here is wrong.


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## Power21 (Jan 26, 2010)

So, we left the switch legs above the wall cabinets on all 4 sides of the kitchen and we'll see at the final when its closed up.

B-Nabs and Rollie73 i def like your ideas for hiding the xfmer behind drawers or in the basement. I'm gonna show my ignorance about LV lights though and ask a question or ten. 

1.What type of LV in-wall rated cable do you guys use to get from the xfmer to the puck light if and when the provided factory wire length is not long enough and/or not rated for in wall use?

2. these Taskwork xenon pucks have a 6' long whip (rated for only cabinet use not in-wall or ceiling) that connects to one of the 6 outputs on the xfmer.... you guys splice it to your in wall rated cable and then back to the xfmer at the selected location ?

3. Is it usually the case that voltage drop would be a concern with extending the circuit longer than the factory provided length

this is the xfmer. Thanks again guys

http://www.kichler.com/media/products/12534/finishes/12534BK.png?&w=900&h=675


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Power21 said:


> So, we left the switch legs above the wall cabinets on all 4 sides of the kitchen and we'll see at the final when its closed up.
> 
> B-Nabs and Rollie73 i def like your ideas for hiding the xfmer behind drawers or in the basement. I'm gonna show my ignorance about LV lights though and ask a question or ten.
> 
> ...


I use thermostat wire. Usually I just twist the fixture wire and LVT together and heat shrink it. Never had an issue with voltage drop and the longest I have run the LVT has been about 40'. I like the closer the better, though.


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## B-Nabs (Jun 4, 2014)

I use LVT, which is a Canadian cable designation, not sure what the equivalent is in the US. It's the same stuff we use for doorbells and low voltage thermostats. I've also seen FAS used, which is fire alarm cable, very similar to LVT but red instead of brown and rated 300 volts instead of 30. I've never had a problem with voltage drop extending the conductors the 15 or 20 feet into the lower drawers. Obviously too long and this may begin to become a concern. I cut the little plug off of the whip on the puck light and splice to the LVT in the cabinet underneath that false shelf I spoke of. I prefer to make that splice using these or something similar as opposed to wirenuts as I feel it makes a more secure connection between those tiny wires.


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## B-Nabs (Jun 4, 2014)

Also I prefer LED pucks, as the xenon ones are too hot. If the HO likes to make pastry they may have a hard time getting a nice flaky crust under those hot little pucks. 2700K LED pucks look just as nice and don't raise the temperature on the countertop by 10 degrees when they're on.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

99cents said:


> I use thermostat wire. Usually I just twist the fixture wire and LVT together and heat shrink it. Never had an issue with voltage drop and the longest I have run the LVT has been about 40'. I like the closer the better, though.


for the last couple code cycles the NEC has required listed class 2 cable for low voltage lights from a class 2 source, so we aren't allowed to use thermostat wire unless it's marked class 2.


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## mdnitedrftr (Aug 21, 2013)

How large are the transformers?


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

wildleg said:


> for the last couple code cycles the NEC has required listed class 2 cable for low voltage lights from a class 2 source, so we aren't allowed to use thermostat wire unless it's marked class 2.


I wonder what the difference is?


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

I wouldn't install it on the top if the crown molding is tight to the ceiling. It sounds like you already have it roughed in though. I haven't installed puck lights for a long time, mostly LED tape. I prefer finding a cabinet where you can install a plug in transformer. The biggest problem is cabinet builders aren't electricians and so, too often they design cabinets, islands, etc. without thinking of the electrician. They should make them pre-install the boxes and specify the required cubic inches.


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

Any LVT is rated for in wall use here in Canada and I always did similar to 99.....I used butt splice crimp terminals though and gave them some heat shrink. Never had an issue.

Excerpt from table 19 of the CEC concerning LVT wire.




> _*For use in Class 2 circuits, in exposed or concealed wiring or use in*_
> _*raceways, in dry or damp locations*_
> 
> 
> _* Extra-low-voltage control cable LVT 60*_​


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## 3DDesign (Oct 25, 2014)

Do the cabinets go all the way to the ceiling?
Is there a basement?


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## Kingston Mike (May 31, 2015)

One of the cabinet makers we work with does a slick hinged system for the section of the crown molding that houses the junction box and transformers. Not visible when done right.


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## Jay82304 (May 12, 2015)

B-Nabs said:


> Also I prefer LED pucks, as the xenon ones are too hot. If the HO likes to make pastry they may have a hard time getting a nice flaky crust under those hot little pucks. 2700K LED pucks look just as nice and don't raise the temperature on the countertop by 10 degrees when they're on.


Ive measured the halogen pucks with my laser thermometer and got a reading of around 370 degrees


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

How are you making the line voltage connection?
Are you entering a junction box with the cable?


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## 3DDesign (Oct 25, 2014)

Jay82304 said:


> Ive measured the halogen pucks with my laser thermometer and got a reading of around 370 degrees


That's why I won't install them. About 20 years ago I had them burn the white paint off the cabinets


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## 211mike70 (May 18, 2015)

Years ago, when I was a cabinet maker/installer, we would put these on top of a pantry or fridge cabinet. We would assemble the crown to fit as on unit then secure with screws from inside the cabinet.

Wish I had some pictures to post but this was well before smart phones.


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