# Use ground as a substitute for neutral



## gilamor (Jul 5, 2007)

In many instances I see the ground and neutral connected together, or used as a substitute for one another at an outlet or a light.
For instance if the there is no neutral in an outlet, some handyman would connect the ground to the neutral screw on the outlet so the outlet would function. Or if there is no neutral at the switch and they want to add an outlet they would use the ground instead of the neutral. Is this situation exposing a risk? What is the risk? What other problem this situation may cause?

Amor electric
http://www.amorelectric.com


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## frank (Feb 6, 2007)

The risks are dangerous in nature. A close scrutiny of a simple supply company metering head circuit and the ground/earth connections to it including all associated metalwork will show the problem.

With no Bus GFI protection the maintained supply will not self protect and residual currents flowing in the dedicated earth path will pass to bonded metalwork. Since this is at ground/earth potential a lethal non apparent fault exists. Should a mains supply neutral become open circuit this once ground potential earth is now a live cable. Depending on circuit earth fault impedance values the likelihood of intermittent electrical shocks will be high or low.The worst scenario would be to have direct contact with earth/ground return prior to entry to common ground.

Use of ground/earths as current carrying conductors is a criminal offence in the UK.

Frank


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

1. This results in ground current, which can leads to PQ (noise on a sound system or hum bars on the TV) and EMF issues.
2. Should a ground conductor open there is a possible voltage potential between two conductors that otherwise would be considered SAFE to touch.
3. You would or could have current flowing on water pipes, HVAC ducts, etc.
4. It is a violation of the NEC.


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## ezoffshore (Jul 26, 2007)

I was wiring a new furnace in a house and just happened to notice a piece of 14/2 nm cable going out through a hole in the wall. This was just regular NM and not UF and it was feeding a yard light. Evidently thaey didnt have a big enough piece so the wire nutted a piece of blue MTW wire from a junction box to the hot wire only and then hose clamped the neutral conductor to the well pipe that came in right next to it. What about the ground wire you ask....It was just cut off. That was real safe.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

A bit off subject, but that is a really nice job of a website. Rather outstanding.


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## robertwilber (Jan 22, 2007)

gilamor said:


> In many instances I see the ground and neutral connected together, or used as a substitute for one another at an outlet or a light.
> For instance if the there is no neutral in an outlet, some handyman would connect the ground to the neutral screw on the outlet so the outlet would function. Or if there is no neutral at the switch and they want to add an outlet they would use the ground instead of the neutral. Is this situation exposing a risk? What is the risk? What other problem this situation may cause?
> 
> Amor electric
> http://www.amorelectric.comhttp://www.amorelectric.comhttp://www.amorelectric.com


think THAT'S scary?
I have come across three-ways using two wire with the ground as a traveler ...


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

I've seen the 3-way ground thing alot as well. How about the hack that adds a ceiling fan to an existing ceiling light fed from a wall switch and uses the ground as the neutral, and the white as the fan switch leg? Worse yet, our hero doesn't even separate the ground in the switch box, he just lets the fan and light return current go through the building grounding system. Makes ya wonder sometimes!


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## Joe Momma (Jan 23, 2007)

Contrary to the popular saying, "electricity takes the path of least resistance", it actually takes all paths available(hence a parallel circuit). 
The amount of current traveling through each path is proportional to it's resistance as compared to all other paths.

If everything on your grounding system were energized and you made your self part of that of that system (which we all do daily), then you've made yourself into another path which means electricity is flowing through you.

Because of this common scenario I hope that we will someday be required to have ground fault mains on everything.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

What type of Ground Fault and what size mains?


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## Joe Momma (Jan 23, 2007)

each and every......
to both questions


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

My question was in regards to the level of protection, you would like to see.


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## Joe Momma (Jan 23, 2007)

I honestly haven't studied it that much, I just don't want to hear of some schmuck getting paid to put lives at risk.
Nor do I want to move into a place that may have such faulty wiring


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## noall666 (Nov 25, 2013)

ok, so I need to know, so i know 120 across hot and neutral, 120 across hot and ground and 0 across neutral and grounds, with 0 ohms of resistance across nuetral and ground, BUT I was working on installing a transformer, and had black and white and ground wires( not exactly sure if they were hot and neutral or 2 hots or 2 neutrals) in the box, so, I started to meter, i had 92 volts across black and white, 120 across black and ground and 120 across white and ground. what gives?

there was a switch in this box that I took out, it was controlling the power going to the bottom half of all the outlets . so i figured it had to have power. ( so i could connect a transformer) but i dont understand whats hot nuetral ground, maybe both are hot no neutral? not sure?

what i did, I know its wrong, I think...

I connected the black and white together to make the outlets work all the time, ya, that works great, BUT to connect the transformer ( and stuff it in the box, (http://www.diychatroom.com/f17/installing-24-volt-transformer-junction-box-face-plate-190964/))
I added one wire from the transformer to the black and white nut, and connected the other side of the transformer to the ground....

Ya this isn't right, but, I am unsure how or why...
please help


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

1-800-call an electrician.


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## DIYer4Life (Nov 11, 2013)

macmikeman said:


> A bit off subject, but that is a really nice job of a website. Rather outstanding.


:laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

DIYer4Life said:


> :laughing::laughing::laughing:


I said that in 2007. It was rather outstanding for 2007. I don't even have a clue if the thing has changed any since then, who knows, it might have been 15 times better than it is now..................


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## azgard (Nov 25, 2011)

Wow, looked up his address, his home is barely larger then my living room, and his service truck looks like an overloaded shortbed tacoma. Business must be bad in LA.


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

It's hack, I have seen this sort of thing in a bathroom where a handyman installed a stacker switch and replaced the fart fan with a fan light combo. The hazard is that you have eliminated the safety ground. If the housing becomes energized, there is nothing to trip the breaker. Don't ever do this.


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## dspiffy (Nov 25, 2013)

micromind said:


> I've seen the 3-way ground thing alot as well. How about the hack that adds a ceiling fan to an existing ceiling light fed from a wall switch and uses the ground as the neutral, and the white as the fan switch leg? Worse yet, our hero doesn't even separate the ground in the switch box, he just lets the fan and light return current go through the building grounding system. Makes ya wonder sometimes!


And usually the fan is drywall screwed to a plastic box.


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

dspiffy said:


> and usually the fan is drywall screwed to a *blue* plastic box.


ftfy


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## dspiffy (Nov 25, 2013)

Well of course, it has to match the drapes.


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

What kind of black magic chicken bone voodoo phukery is this? DIY sending people here now?


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

Goldagain said:


> What kind of black magic chicken bone voodoo phukery is this? DIY sending people here now?


Look at the OP date, this is another zombie thread revived by a noob.


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

Hate to be the guy who needed more neutral terminals so lifted the equip grinds to put them on a newly installed ground bar. Ko 'd on his arse..


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

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