# Embarassed Myself: Splices Came Apart



## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

So I was wiring these recessed cans yesterday, and using smaller wirenuts than I'm used to, they don't leave a lot of room for error as the "skirt" of the nut doesn't extend very far down. I was cutting the copper a little more than I typically prefer.

Otherwise nothing out of the ordinary, twisted the 12 g. together then wrapped the 14 (or 16?) aluminum wire around the copper and twisted.

I recall having a few issues when I'd yank them the aluminum would pull away, so the wire nut wasn't catching. So I'd skin more back, and wrap even more aluminum around the copper twists and put the nut back on.

I thought I had my bases covered, but today the owner called me out and said that he had someone double back and check my work and about 20% of the cans were coming loose (I guess that makes 3-4). 

I told him exactly how I was wiring them, and as received my lecture I realized that they don't twist their wires in situations like that. I've always been told to twist my wires so I never thought to _not_ twist my wires. He told me to just take the wires, put them parallel and even with each other, then put on the wire nut, twist on, then tug. Guaranteed they won't pull apart.

It's a big deal to me because I've only just started working, so they will be watching close at everything I do.

Well, at least I can guarantee that's something I'll never forget.


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## dawgs (Dec 1, 2007)

Didnt you tug the wires after to check?


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

That is why I use Halo brand. Nice push in connectors.:thumbsup:


You should be punished for your mistake also....:yes::jester:


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

By the way. Me and Dad go behind each other on every job. Anyone can make a mistake. But 20% is not good. You will really have to check behind yourself now because like you said they will be.


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

dawgs said:


> Didnt you tug the wires after to check?


Clearly not all of them.

I mean, honestly, I'm _really_ surprised that the connections were so loose they just "popped out". That's not loose, that's just not even on.

I've _never_ had an issue like this before because I've always worked with wire nuts that allowed more threads to catch, that or the lighting fixture came with pre-made push in quick connectors.

He's very adamant about using these little yellow wire nuts. Any other time I would have done the same as I did, but just swapped out for a wire nut that could conceal more stripped wire.

I look like such a newb.


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

Actually, what's funny is that on my last job, they fired journeymen that didn't twist their wires together, so when you'd undo the splice, the wires would spring away from each other. I remember thinking, "why in the world wouldn't you twist your wires"?

There's a technique for every situation.


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## dawgs (Dec 1, 2007)

Are the wire nuts rated for what you were using them for?


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

That sucks, especially since you are starting that brand new job; had it happen to me, just work harder and keep asking for more complicated and advanced tasks so you don't get seen as a slouch and are relegated to cr*p work;actually, many wire nut manufacture's don't recommend twisting the wires together.


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

dawgs said:


> Are the wire nuts rated for what you were using them for?


Yes.

You can fit a maximum of 3 #12's, but boy do you gotta cut the copper short to keep it concealed.

Maybe the secret really is not to twist them...at least not the copper that goes into the wirenut.

I'll do what he says, keep them parallel, but after the wire nut is secure,maybe give them a little twist where the insulation starts. Is that reasonable?


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

Frasbee said:


> I'll do what he says, keep them parallel, but after the wire nut is secure,maybe give them a little twist where the insulation starts. Is that reasonable?


For sure, every joint I make up I give a good tug on to make sure it's all snug.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

I do twist my fixture wires around the feed. The trick is to strip about an inch of the fixture insulation off and twist.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

When making solid to stranded splices I like to splice my two solid wires together as usual and then I like to let the stranded wire "lead" the solid wire by a hair, but I don't twist it around the solid splice. I put the wire nut on and tighten it up real good, I even give the wire nut a twist or two with my linesman pliers. Give it a tug and it will never come undone.:thumbsup:

When I was a newbie I had a similar experience and an older mechanic showed me this method, I have never had a solid/stranded splice come apart since.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

I always twist my feeds then cut them to length and strip about an inch off the fixture wires and flat an them out and wrap them tight around the feeds and put on a *good wire nut*< That seem pretty key. I almost always trash the cheap ones that come with fixtures and stuff like that and put on one of those 3M things with a skirt or an Ideal.


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## zen (Jun 15, 2009)

what works best for me is to twist the 12 g then align the wire from the can so that it is slightly longer than the 12 g when it enters the wirenut...if the 12 g is stripped back 1/2 in. then the other is stripped back 5/8.....this also seems to help when twisting stranded and solid together..


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

slickvic277 said:


> When making solid to stranded splices I like to splice my two solid wires together as usual and then I like to let the stranded wire "lead" the solid wire by a hair, but I don't twist it around the solid splice. I put the wire nut on and tighten it up real good, I even give the wire nut a twist or two with my linesman pliers. Give it a tug and it will never come undone.:thumbsup:
> 
> 
> 
> When I was a newbie I had a similar experience and an older mechanic showed me this method, I have never had a solid/stranded splice come apart since.


 
I do stranded #12 and up the same way as you. I have better luck with twisting fixture wires.


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

jwjrw said:


> I do twist my fixture wires around the feed. The trick is to strip about an inch of the fixture insulation off and twist.


That was my technique, I guess I just didn't have enough wrapped for the few threads to catch on a few of the fixtures.

I'm happy to have learned this alternative method, but I'm irked that it was under these circumstances.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Frasbee said:


> That was my technique, I guess I just didn't have enough wrapped for the few threads to catch on a few of the fixtures.
> 
> I'm happy to have learned this alternative method, but I'm irked that it was under these circumstances.


 
Personally if I have 2 #12's and a fixture wire I won't use yellow wirenuts. You are right they don't want to grab the wire like it does with a red.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Frasbee said:


> That was my technique, I guess I just didn't have enough wrapped for the few threads to catch on a few of the fixtures.
> 
> I'm happy to have learned this alternative method, but I'm irked that it was under these circumstances.



Don't sweat it, no ones perfect and mistakes happen. It's not your fault that your working for the cheapest S.O.B on the planet. Some one should buy this guy a clue, yellow wire nuts, the cheap ones that they sell at home-cheapo, what a douche.


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

zen said:


> what works best for me is to twist the 12 g then align the wire from the can so that it is slightly longer than the 12 g when it enters the wirenut...if the 12 g is stripped back 1/2 in. then the other is stripped back 5/8.....this also seems to help when twisting stranded and solid together..


See, that's what I'm used to stripping to, to keep the bare metal covered when using "normal" wire nuts. I had to cut my splice short to more like 3/8'' of an inch, that's only about 2 twists of bare copper. 

We're using these:










I'm used to using these, little more room to play, but I'm guessing more expensive:


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## zen (Jun 15, 2009)

the last company i worked for believed in the theory of letting the wire nut do the twisting,,,we would install as many as 2 to 300 cans and so it was accepted not to take more time with linemans to twist them together,,,but we used 3m wirenuts,,,the yellow and red,,,,,,the stablock type we had to cut off and disreguard.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

these are what you should be using.









And if space is an issue,









The blue and orange wire nuts are small but there good up to 3 # 12's and they have a skirt.

Nothing I hate more then cheap ass wire nuts.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

zen said:


> the last company i worked for believed in the theory of letting the wire nut do the twisting,,,we would install as many as 2 to 300 cans and so it was accepted not to take more time with linemans to twist them together,,,but we used 3m wirenuts,,,the yellow and red,,,,,,the stablock type we had to cut off and disreguard.



 hack.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

No big deal Frasbee. I'm sure the same thing has happened to everyone who has ever wired cans for a living. You learned from your mistake and that's what counts. 

In every situation you should tug on your splices to make sure no wire will slide out, even if you pre-twist your joints. :thumbsup:

What kind of cans were you wiring? A lot of them come with push-in connectors installed on the leads. Even when you use those you should check to make sure a wire won't slide out.

Anyway, there is always going to be some percentage of your splices that will fail, nobody is 100% perfect. The trick is to keep that percentage as low as humanly possible.


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

slickvic277 said:


> these are what you should be using.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I love those little orange ones, they do hold a lot for their size.

I had even said I was having an issue with wire nuts, but he pulled the "I've been using them for 40 years and never had an issue."

Decided it was probably a good idea to just shut up at that point. :yes:

I'm glad to hear the feedback, that really shook my confidence.

You really can learn something new every day, even if it's just how to work with really $hitty material, or tools. I'm happy to pass on the information, but I would never wish those cheapa$$ wire nuts on anyone. :laughing:


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## Widestance_Politics (Jun 2, 2010)

slickvic277 said:


> Don't sweat it, no ones perfect and mistakes happen. It's not your fault that your working for the cheapest S.O.B on the planet. Some one should buy this guy a clue, yellow wire nuts, the cheap ones that they sell at home-cheapo, what a douche.


In defense of the owner, those nuts are rated for that application so why buy the more expensive brand? Just chalk it up as a learning experience and be sure you do your best not to repeat it.....the fact that you are worked up enough about it to create this thread shows that it has made an impact and that you actually care about your work.....I was torn a new one in front of the crew as a second year for not pulling on wires I landed at a machine shop.....the wire was behind the breaker terminal, not in it, so it tested fine when turned on....over the weekend the wire moved and they lost power to the equipment, so this J-man had a 2am service call that he wasn't able to charge for.....needles to say, I check every termination since.......


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Frasbee said:


> I love those little orange ones, they do hold a lot for their size.
> 
> I had even said I was having an issue with wire nuts, but he pulled the "I've been using them for 40 years and never had an issue."
> 
> ...



Remember what I told you about this guy.....It's just the tip of the ice burg. Be careful, I wouldn't be surprised if the next thing he expects is for you to work hot.

IME, Cheapness and laziness go hand in had. That combination usually equals dangerous as well.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Don't lose no sleep over it. I had a much bigger boo-boo once. I tapped all the emergency heads for 120v when they were wired up 277v.

I was very green and even though it wasn't explained to me I felt just horrible. That was a bad feeling with all the guy's staring daggers into me. 
I wanted to crawl under a rock and die.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Frasbee said:


>


Those SUCK, all they are good for is chucking toward the trash can.


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

Rudeboy said:


> What kind of cans were you wiring? A lot of them come with push-in connectors installed on the leads. Even when you use those you should check to make sure a wire won't slide out.


I tried to find them, but I can't find the exact model.

All I know is that the brand name is "Lucifer". http://www.luciferlighting.com/domestic.aspx

Kinda big and bulky, the j-box is mounted to the side of the light, and you have to dismount the pre-manufactured bracket to get to the wires. Even then, the wires that come with the can are very short, and made shorter by the fact they're held in place by a strap. I started cutting this strap so I could work with the wires easier.


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## slowmo (Aug 19, 2010)

ive always had the best luck with stripping out then holding the wires close to the base to the wire nut and twisting hard enough to wrap all the wires around themselves. always a good connection. but i work everything like its hot. good practice


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## slowmo (Aug 19, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> Those SUCK, all they are good for is chucking toward the trash can.


i still use to cap off the unused lead in exit/emergency signs... thats it though


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## The Lightman (Jan 9, 2010)

None of us are perfect. Live, earn and learn, Frasbee. No bigee. Just read #4...


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

Wasn't there a Frissbee Dog on one of the forums? No scooby snack for you Frasbee! Pretwist? WTF? Even the baggy of nuts doesn't tell you to pretwist. Hang the stranded out further then the solid copper and go to town. Tug on em. Good to go. I had a wire pop out of a nut today, it happens. Tell him to get real wire nuts. Yellow is old school. Tans all the way.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

slickvic277 said:


> these are what you should be using.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


These are all I allow my workers to use. IMHO, anything else is sub standard. They hold the best, more wire per wire nut, and are better all around. They are, however, some of the most expensive ones available.

~matt


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## zen (Jun 15, 2009)

slickvic277 said:


> hack.


 not my policy,and i didnt agree with it,,,,where i work now we twist them:thumbsup:


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Don't worry much about it. It was a good learning lesson. Remember this. The only guy I knew that never made a mistake was the one who never did anything.:thumbsup:


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## Lighting Retro (Aug 1, 2009)

zen said:


> the last company i worked for believed in the theory of letting the wire nut do the twisting,,,we would install as many as 2 to 300 cans and so it was accepted not to take more time with linemans to twist them together,,,but we used 3m wirenuts,,,the yellow and red,,,,,,the stablock type we had to cut off and disreguard.


Very common to see the wire nut used as the wire twister. Especially if you are working hot.


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## Mr. Sparkle (Jan 27, 2009)

Frasbee said:


>





Jlarson said:


> Those SUCK, all they are good for is chucking toward the trash can.


You are forgetting about how good they are as blow darts in a stick of 1/2" EMT.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

Mr. Sparkle said:


> You are forgetting about how good they are as blow darts in a stick of 1/2" EMT.


 That is all I use them for. :thumbsup:


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

slickvic277 said:


> these are what you should be using.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Amen!!!!!!


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

Hey now, I've gotten better at using the cheap a$$ ones.

I'm gonna mature into a damn good hack!


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Mr. Sparkle said:


> You are forgetting about how good they are as blow darts in a stick of 1/2" EMT.


:laughing::laughing::laughing: I would never do that:shifty:


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## jasc1988 (Nov 25, 2007)

Never ever used these and i' be suprised if i am allowed too!!

whats wrong with good old strip connector or straight through crimps??


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Frasbee said:


> Hey now, I've gotten better at using the cheap a$$ ones.
> 
> I'm gonna mature into a damn good hack!




Sadly a union guy will never master the art of hacking something to professional standards........they don't work enough to develop the necessary skills.....:whistling2:


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

jwjrw said:


> Sadly a union guy will never master the art of hacking something to professional standards........they don't work enough to develop the necessary skills.....:whistling2:


:laughing:















Wait.... Union guys work?

~Matt


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

TOOL_5150 said:


> Wait.... Union guys work?


Yeah, what the hell? :blink:


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

Jlarson said:


> Yeah, what the hell? :blink:


Union guys probably never see 3m wire nuts, they all use the little cheapos you get at HD.

~Matt


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

zen said:


> the last company i worked for believed in the theory of letting the wire nut do the twisting,,,we would install as many as 2 to 300 cans and so it was accepted not to take more time with linemans to twist them together,,,but we used 3m wirenuts,,,the yellow and red,,,,,,the stablock type we had to cut off and disreguard.


I refuse to twist wires before putting a wirenut on them, read the instructions.
As for light fixtures, especially recess cans, Wagos ONLY!!


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

jrannis said:


> I refuse to twist wires before putting a wirenut on them, read the instructions.
> As for light fixtures, especially recess cans, Wagos ONLY!!



When Halo started putting wagos on their can lights I was very pleased.:thumbsup:


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

jwjrw said:


> When Halo started putting wagos on their can lights I was very pleased.:thumbsup:


Only some of them though. I just buy a box of wagos for can lights. Using a wire nut on 2 #12's and that little fixture wire doesnt work well all the time.

~Matt


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

TOOL_5150 said:


> Only some of them though. I just buy a box of wagos for can lights. Using a wire nut on 2 #12's and that little fixture wire doesnt work well all the time.
> 
> ~Matt



All the ones from my supply house have them but the ones at the big box stores here do not. We put in a lot of can lights and it made life so much easier.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

jwjrw said:


> All the ones from my supply house have them but the ones at the big box stores here do not. We put in a lot of can lights and it made life so much easier.


uh oh.. ive been caught :laughing:

~Matt


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

TOOL_5150 said:


> uh oh.. ive been caught :laughing:
> 
> ~Matt


Your covers still safe, I picked up a couple of Halo's this weekend from Cheepo and they had the Wagos already installed.


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