# Running Romex under a cabinet



## PlugsAndLights (Jan 19, 2016)

Common practice for attached cupboards in kitchens. 
P&L


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## Quinton688 (Sep 25, 2010)

I didn't think it was a violation but, better safe then sorry! thanks for your help!


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

I think more guys sleeve with greenfield in cabinets than they do with EMT.


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

most everyone around here sleeves in carflex


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

I don't do it unless it's something specific to the cabinet like a garbage disposer. It crates a mess if the cabinets are changed out in the future (although, I guess, that creates work for an electrician).


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

99cents said:


> I don't do it unless it's something specific to the cabinet like a garbage disposer. It crates a mess if the cabinets are changed out in the future (although, I guess, that creates work for an electrician).


Job security!


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> I don't do it unless it's something specific to the cabinet like a garbage disposer. It crates a mess if the cabinets are changed out in the future (although, I guess, that creates work for an electrician).


I guess you don't like undercabinet lighting either


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

99cents said:


> I don't do it unless it's something specific to the cabinet like a garbage disposer. It crates a mess if the cabinets are changed out in the future (although, I guess, that creates work for an electrician).


running conduit and wiring through cabinets when retrofitting ucab lighting in a house built on a slab is usually the only way to make it happen


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

drspec said:


> most everyone around here sleeves in carflex


That's a fairly large diameter to run around inside cabinetry, no?


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

MechanicalDVR said:


> That's a fairly large diameter to run around inside cabinetry, no?


1/2" carflex is larger than 1/2" greenfield?


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

drspec said:


> 1/2" carflex is larger than 1/2" greenfield?


Isn't it?


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> I guess you don't like undercabinet lighting either


I don't understand :001_huh: .


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

drspec said:


> 1/2" carflex is larger than 1/2" greenfield?


I use 3/8" flex, it's about the same size as MC but it slides right over romex to make a nice sleeve for protection.


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

HackWork said:


> I use 3/8" flex, it's about the same size as MC but it slides right over romex to make a nice sleeve for protection.


how do you protect the romex from the cut end of the greenfield?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

drspec said:


> how do you protect the romex from the cut end of the greenfield?


No need. Us a rotosplit and it will be clean. I guess you can insert a red-head and tape it, but that's unnecessary. It's the same as the conductors coming out of the stripped end of MC cable.


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

HackWork said:


> No need. Us a rotosplit and it will be clean. I guess you can insert a red-head and tape it, but that's unnecessary. It's the same as the conductors coming out of the stripped end of MC cable.


wouldn't you have to by code? I mean youre supposed to use bushings on EMT and that has much less chance of damaging romex than greenfield does

Ive even had inspectors require bushings on pvc 

I think its all silly and unnecessary. just playing devils advocate here.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

drspec said:


> wouldn't you have to by code? I mean youre supposed to use bushings on EMT and that has much less chance of damaging romex than greenfield does


 It's a sleeve, not a raceway. You can use garden hose or copper water pipe.



> I think its all silly and unnecessary. just playing devils advocate here.


You







Me


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> It's a sleeve, not a raceway. You can use garden hose or copper water pipe.


Dual function, water and wire. I like it  .


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

HackWork said:


> I use 3/8" flex, it's about the same size as MC but it slides right over romex to make a nice sleeve for protection.


Same here. :thumbsup:


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

99cents said:


> Dual function, water and wire. I like it  .


Hence the Canadian term: "hydro."


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

telsa said:


> Hence the Canadian term: "hydro."


'Hydro' is far more an inner city term than Canadian in my experience.

'Hydro' is the good chit!


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

If I have unfinished basement underneath, I'll mount a 4 square and change over to MC if its exposed. I've used wiremold as well. The plastic sealtite works as well.


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## kg7879 (Feb 3, 2014)

Just curious because I do not do residential, but the standard practice for under cabinet lighting is running romex from cabinet to cabinet and then you use a sleeve to run your romex to the wall to get power?


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

nrp3 said:


> If I have unfinished basement underneath, I'll mount a 4 square and change over to MC if its exposed. I've used wiremold as well. The plastic sealtite works as well.


I've done mc and wiremold but never sealtite, seems like an expensive waste.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Apparently, many of you mount your U/C lights at the outer edge of the cabinet. If you mount them in the back, butted up to the wall, there are no sleeve issues.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

By sealtite, I mean the plastic stuff without the metal corrugated inside. 

Are we really worried about exposed romex on the bottom of a kitchen cabinet? Inside the cabinet I get, but feeding undercabinet lights? I typically mount to the back as he said anyway.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I have never sleeved romex coming out of the wall and going into an under cabinet light since I don't feel that is subjected to physical damage.

I am talking about when I run romex thru a cabinet.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Mistake.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

nrp3 said:


> By sealtite, I mean the plastic stuff without the metal corrugated inside.
> 
> Are we really worried about exposed romex on the bottom of a kitchen cabinet? Inside the cabinet I get, but feeding undercabinet lights? I typically mount to the back as he said anyway.


Carflex (all plastic) in 3/8" is $2 per foot, 3/8" Greenfield is about $.28 per foot, plus it's thinner.

It's only inside a cabinet I'd sleeve it.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Carflex (all plastic) in 3/8" is $2 per foot, 3/8" Greenfield is about $.28 per foot, plus it's thinner.
> 
> It's only inside a cabinet I'd sleeve it.


IIRC, 1/2" is the smallest trade size permitted for field wiring.

A mere technicality in this instance, but there it is.


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## Fishbulb (Jun 9, 2016)

telsa said:


> IIRC, 1/2" is the smallest trade size permitted for field wiring.
> 
> A mere technicality in this instance, but there it is.


If you want small technicalities, no size of Greenfield is allowed for protecting NM. The general "conduit" protection method which allowed it was removed quite some time ago.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

telsa said:


> IIRC, 1/2" is the smallest trade size permitted for field wiring.
> 
> A mere technicality in this instance, but there it is.





Fishbulb said:


> If you want small technicalities, no size of Greenfield is allowed for protecting NM. The general "conduit" protection method which allowed it was removed quite some time ago.


I don't know what either one of you are talking about. You can use anything to sleeve romex. It's not a raceway, it doesn't have to be listed or in the NEC.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

HackWork said:


> I don't know what either one of you are talking about. You can use anything to sleeve romex. It's not a raceway, it doesn't have to be listed or in the NEC.


Thanks, I have never heard any objection from an inspectior or engineer about Greenfield. I used 3/8" most often because I was using it most of the time for control wiring.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

kg7879 said:


> Just curious because I do not do residential, but the standard practice for under cabinet lighting is running romex from cabinet to cabinet and then you use a sleeve to run your romex to the wall to get power?


18/2 thermostat wire to the driver. The driver gets switched. Not a fan of 120V UC lighting.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

nrp3 said:


> If I have unfinished basement underneath, I'll mount a 4 square and change over to MC if its exposed. I've used wiremold as well. The plastic sealtite works as well.


That method totally screws the next guy when going to finish the basement.


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## Fishbulb (Jun 9, 2016)

HackWork said:


> I don't know what either one of you are talking about. You can use anything to sleeve romex. It's not a raceway, it doesn't have to be listed or in the NEC.


Previously that was arguably true. From the 2002 NEC:



> 334.15 Exposed Work.
> (B) The cable shall be protected from physical damage where necessary by conduit, electrical metallic tubing, Schedule 80 PVC rigid nonmetallic conduit, pipe, guard strips, listed surface metal or nonmetallic raceway, or other means.


But changed in 2005 and later versions:



> 334.15 Exposed Work.
> (B) Protection from Physical Damage. Cable shall be protected from physical damage where necessary by rigid metal conduit, intermediate metal conduit, electrical metallic tubing, Schedule 80 PVC rigid nonmetallic conduit, or other approved means.


Notice a couple of changes there?


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I try to stay away from anything with separate drivers or transformers. I have good luck with the 120v lighting I use. Not cheap but good. Most of the basements I work on don't end up being finished. I suppose I could get into the habit of just running those circuits in MC from end to end.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Fishbulb said:


> Previously that was arguably true. From the 2002 NEC:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, but the heading and first line are still the same:

"_Exposed Work_"

"_The cable shall be protected from physical damage *where necessary*_"

When romex is ran thru plumbing pipe, a cigar holder, a fallopian tube, etc. it is not exposed nor is it subject to physical damage, and therefore it is not necessary to use rigid pipe or other such extreme methods to protect it.

Mikey mac mania man uses plywood to cover romex. Therefore it is not subject to physical damage and doesn't need an approved means of protection.


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## Islander (Jul 11, 2016)

I see no problem with using this to protect the romex. Especially awesome when it comes up underneath the sink to power the waste disposal unit. It just looks like it belongs there.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Islander said:


> I see no problem with using this to protect the romex. Especially awesome when it comes up underneath the sink to power the waste disposal unit. It just looks like it belongs there.


:jester::jester:


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## Barjack (Mar 28, 2010)

> *334.15 Exposed Work.*
> 
> *(B) Protection from Physical Damage.* Cable shall be
> protected from physical damage where necessary by rigid
> ...


The phrases in red allow the AHJ to make a judgement call regarding the means and use of protection. 

I have never, ever, been turned down for using Greenfield to sleeve Romex under a sink or at a water heater, etc.


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## samgregger (Jan 23, 2013)

Does anyone use ENT?


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

samgregger said:


> Does anyone use ENT?


Smurf tube is fairly large for running inside cabinets and ugly.


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## Barjack (Mar 28, 2010)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Smurf tube is fairly large for running inside cabinets and ugly.


I was going to say that. Its also not as flexible as Greenfield for whips to equipment.


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## Fishbulb (Jun 9, 2016)

Barjack said:


> The phrases in red allow the AHJ to make a judgement call regarding the means and use of protection.
> 
> I have never, ever, been turned down for using Greenfield to sleeve Romex under a sink or at a water heater, etc.


The inspector may approve it but it's still violating the NEC. Greenfield (and many other materials) have this limitation:



> 348.12 Uses Not Permitted. FMC shall not be used in the following:
> (7) Where subject to physical damage.


So when you sleeve with Greenfield you have one of two situations:

A. The NM is not subject to physical damage to begin with, in which case you are sleeving for no particular reason.

B. The NM is subject to physical damage, in which case you are protecting it with a material which itself is not allowed to be installed in an environment where it is subject to physical damage.

All of the materials listed in 334.15 have one thing in common: They are not prohibited from being installed where subject to physical damage.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

The part that you are missing is that you are not use greenfield as a wiring method, so the NEC doesn't apply. You are using it as a sleeve. 

You can use anything as a sleeve.

If I use EMT as a guy bar to hold up a service mast, the NEC articles that apply to EMT don't apply to that installation.


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## Anathera (Feb 16, 2016)

Exposed to physical damage is also relative to the wiring method what would damage romex won't damage greenfield ie careless steak knife wielder could damage romex but he'd have to have a machete to break greenfield for romex exposure to knife is physical damage but for greenfield it's not


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Anathera said:


> Exposed to physical damage is also relative to the wiring method what would damage romex won't damage greenfield ie careless steak knife wielder could damage romex but he'd have to have a machete to break greenfield for romex exposure to knife is physical damage but for greenfield it's not


Exactly!

Inside a cabinet it's going to get hit with a pan or have a cookie sheet slid in against it, not damaging to Greenfield at all.


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