# He's Absolutely Right! Forget AFCIs - We're Better Off Fusing Our Plugs Like Europe



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

A fuse won’t detect arc faults, at least not low level arcing and sparking.


----------



## dspiffy (Nov 25, 2013)

I muchly appreciate this YT channel, but IMO he got a lot wrong here.


----------



## splatz (May 23, 2015)

99cents said:


> A fuse won’t detect arc faults, at least not low level arcing and sparking.


Do arc fault breakers? 😉


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

splatz said:


> Do arc fault breakers? 😉


In theory they are suppose to. In the real world, who knows.


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

splatz said:


> Do arc fault breakers? 😉


My eyes are going. I just focused on the smile face winky thing. You were being facetious


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

99cents said:


> A fuse won’t detect arc faults, at least not low level arcing and sparking.


Neither do arc-fault breakers. The causes of most electrical fires are not hidden in our walls - they're right there hanging on pegs and filling the bins at .99 cent stores, and consumer ignorance.


----------



## mofos be cray (Nov 14, 2016)

But how will the breaker companies get more profit with no arcies? They would be stuck hoping for dubious pandemic shortages. Poor fellas


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

LGLS said:


> Neither do arc-fault breakers. The causes of most electrical fires are not hidden in our walls - they're right there hanging on pegs and filling the bins at .99 cent stores, and consumer ignorance.


You got a problem with 99 cent stores? 🤣

We can argue about the effectiveness of AFCI devices but our complaint has always been about nuisance tripping and cost. I am of the opinion that they do trip on minor arcs and sparks and do so much better than fuses.

I agree, however, that protection of interior building wiring is unnecessary. An AFCI device at the first receptacle is all that’s needed but that would kill the cash cow for the breaker industry. That would make an in-line fuse redundant (which is probably there for appliance protection anyway) and prevent the HO from inventing a tin foil fuse.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

99cents said:


> You got a problem with 99 cent stores? 🤣
> 
> We can argue about the effectiveness of AFCI devices but our complaint has always been about nuisance tripping and cost. I am of the opinion that they do trip on minor arcs and sparks and do so much better than fuses.
> 
> I agree, however, that protection of interior building wiring is unnecessary. An AFCI device at the first receptacle is all that’s needed but that would kill the cash cow for the breaker industry. That would make an in-line fuse redundant (which is probably there for appliance protection anyway) and prevent the HO from inventing a tin foil fuse.


Why is it possible we protect a circuit with a 20 amp OCPD, but can plug a multi-tap cable in that is only #18 or #16 awg and can turn into a heater? Run that "heavy duty" cord under the bed and through the drapes and connect a 1600 watt heater and the vacuum in there?


----------



## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

Guy buys ext cord with fuse. Fuse blows. Replace with bigger fuse. Bigger fuse blows. Inserts large wire to bypass fuse, problem solved ... fuse doesn't blow anymore 

Your not the first person to try to cure Darwinism 😂


----------



## SWDweller (Dec 9, 2020)

Long ago in the before time of Arc Fault breakers, there was a fireman from the City of Phoenix who was applauded as a hero because he saw the extension cord he had put across his tender aged child's bed to the electric heater starting to smoke. I got into it with him in his fire house and how with all of the electrical training the FD got each year he should have been put in jail for being stupid. His captain started thinking about what I was saying. 

Arc's and GFCI's in the residential market place are a blank blank joke. Push a button for testing, ya that is a definitive answer. Most here know the drill of setting the ground fault for a >1000 amp breaker. You test the device with know sources, push the button! No witness inspector will accept, I pushed the button and it tripped. Coordination, "forget about it."

When I was at the mine we were not allowed to use less than #12 wire extension cords with 15 amp ends. So #12 gauge wire was really a 15 amp device. They were called 20 amp cords but there was not a 20 amp plug or outlet on the property. Yet the preaching went on and on that they were 20 amp cords. 12 wire in the wall with a 15 amp outlet on a 20 amp breaker. 

There are some people who should not have children.


----------



## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

emtnut said:


> Guy buys ext cord with fuse. Fuse blows. Replace with bigger fuse. Bigger fuse blows. Inserts large wire to bypass fuse, problem solved ... fuse doesn't blow anymore
> 
> Your not the first person to try to cure Darwinism 😂


Guy buys ext with load rating of cord on the package. Fails to heed rating. Learns the hard way the difference between "can" and "should".

There is no cure.


----------



## dspiffy (Nov 25, 2013)

Honestly, I feel like space heaters are the only real issue. What else are you going to plug in that's going to draw 10+amps and leave unattended?

Start requiring 20amp plugs in space heaters?


----------



## u2slow (Jan 2, 2014)

I like the idea of 20A plugs on space heaters.

Maybe fuses on #16 cords would be a good idea, like Xmas lights.


----------



## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

If you look at the electrical product recall page at ESA here in Ontario, it's 90% Christmas lights that are recalled for 'fire hazard'

If a space heater is cover by clothing or drapes or whatever, it's listed as an 'Electrical Cause for fire'
The stats they keep suck.


----------



## dspiffy (Nov 25, 2013)

u2slow said:


> I like the idea of 20A plugs on space heaters.
> 
> Maybe fuses on #16 cords would be a good idea, like Xmas lights.


There are fuses/circuit breakers on power strips and they still start fires with space heaters.

The fuses would have to be low enough that simply plugging in a space heater deactivates the cord. 10a?


----------



## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

Maybe no continuous-duty cord-and-plug electrical device that has a 15 amp plug should be manufactured that draws more than 10 amps. It can go to 15 if it has a 20 amp plug.


----------



## cuba_pete (Dec 8, 2011)

If we require space heaters to have 20A plugs, then homeowners are just going to swap out their receptacles..._now _the problem could be in the walls. I'm sure a few of us have see overloaded circuits where the breaker didn't protect over time and melting ensued.

I saw this video a few weeks ago. I used to explain what that guy did (and more) in my annual electrical safety lectures for my building. It's a little too bad that people will pay more attention to YouTubers like him instead of learning properly and applying the knowledge, or hiring professionals and listening to them. You get what you pay for, and people want free.

Hopefully people carry workplace knowledge to their homes, even a fireman trying to keep their kids warm.


----------



## dspiffy (Nov 25, 2013)

cuba_pete said:


> If we require space heaters to have 20A plugs, then homeowners are just going to swap out their receptacles..._now _the problem could be in the walls. I'm sure a few of us have see overloaded circuits where the breaker didn't protect over time and melting ensued.


Which would be no different than if they plugged the space heater in directly, now.


----------



## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

dspiffy said:


> Which would be no different than if they plugged the space heater in directly, now.


Except they'd have to mess with the building system and violate code. If the insurance co. found out, they might not pay.


----------



## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

LGLS said:


> Why is it possible we protect a circuit with a 20 amp OCPD, but can plug a multi-tap cable in that is only #18 or #16 awg and can turn into a heater? Run that "heavy duty" cord under the bed and through the drapes and connect a 1600 watt heater and the vacuum in there?


18 gage Zip cord ran under a throw rug feeding a refrigerator is not good either.
A fuse might not detect arcing but at least the cord wouldn't become a heat strip if it was overloaded. 
The average home owner is clueless and I agree extension cords and cheap plastic power strips can cause fires.
Under sized Power supplies and halogen bulbs in lamps when your kids toss their cloths over the lamp shade also start fires.


----------



## cuba_pete (Dec 8, 2011)

dspiffy said:


> Which would be no different than if they plugged the space heater in directly, now.


So as far the purpose of requiring 20A plugs, it might stop people from plugging them into (off the shelf) power strips or extension cords or it might force them to get creative. People will still find a way to work around even UL approved devices, such as receptacle ground lift adapters (which _are _UL approved), plugging ten 15A loads into one of those large entertainment-center type surge suppressors or power strips that still only has 14 or maybe 12 gauge wires in the cord set (as the video pointed out).

Consumers don't de-rate their equipment. They plug in all they can get away with, then they tuck the cords under baseboards or coil and bundle/zip tie them up and stuff them in the back of a pressboard cabinet.

Even putting 10A fuses in a plug or strip wouldn't stop the consumer from putting in a 20A fuse because they think they know better....and they realize that those fuses fit just fine.

I'd be willing to bet there are more than a few Brits who have put in over-sized fuses, foil-wrapped fuses, nails, copper bars or whatever other conductive metal they could find to bypass the in-line fuses that that YouTuber purports to be so much smarter and better.

People are born trying to find new and different ways to die.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Easy said:


> 18 gage Zip cord ran under a throw rug feeding a refrigerator is not good either.
> A fuse might not detect arcing but at least the cord wouldn't become a heat strip if it was overloaded.
> The average home owner is clueless and I agree extension cords and cheap plastic power strips can cause fires.
> Under sized Power supplies and halogen bulbs in lamps when your kids toss their cloths over the lamp shade also start fires.


I would like to believe the 80's are long gone and halogen torchairs, free-standing crappy pole lights with that 250-500w heater 2' from the ceiling and the crappy piece of safety glass they provided that was more fragile than a high school microscope slide are long retired. Who am I kidding they're probably all the rage in the sticks still... 

Bottom line here is what we make and sell, and our systems, are arranged and designed in such a way that requires the users to understand things that are not taught in schools.


----------



## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

cuba_pete said:


> So as far the purpose of requiring 20A plugs, it might stop people from plugging them into (off the shelf) power strips or extension cords or it might force them to get creative. People will still find a way to work around even UL approved devices, such as receptacle ground lift adapters (which _are _UL approved), plugging ten 15A loads into one of those large entertainment-center type surge suppressors or power strips that still only has 14 or maybe 12 gauge wires in the cord set (as the video pointed out).
> 
> Consumers don't de-rate their equipment. They plug in all they can get away with, then they tuck the cords under baseboards or coil and bundle/zip tie them up and stuff them in the back of a pressboard cabinet.
> 
> ...


I agree. Trying to make things idiot proof ends up inconveniencing smart people and doesn't slow the idiots much.


----------



## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

Just when you make it idiot proof .... they make a better idiot


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

LGLS said:


> Why is it possible we protect a circuit with a 20 amp OCPD, but can plug a multi-tap cable in that is only #18 or #16 awg and can turn into a heater? Run that "heavy duty" cord under the bed and through the drapes and connect a 1600 watt heater and the vacuum in there?


Ampacity is dependent on wire size and insulation type. Since extension cord insulation is kind of rubbery maybe it has a higher value than normal building wire. I’m just guessing. Maybe that’s why we see 16 gauge extension cords.


----------



## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

We use lamp cords all the time.










Could plug 2 heaters into that sucker....


----------



## dspiffy (Nov 25, 2013)

Pre-LED, there were a lot more lighting issues, particularly 300-500w halogen, and filling a 5 socket ceiling fan with 150-300w bulbs.

I maintain that plugging space heaters into anything other than directly into the outlet is the biggest hazard outside of the Christmas season.

You can plug a 12a space heater into a 15a power strip and everything is rated correctly and nothing will trip, yet I've still seen the power strip melt into abstract sculpture from the resistance/heat.


----------



## Quickservice (Apr 23, 2020)

LGLS said:


> Neither do arc-fault breakers. The causes of most electrical fires are not hidden in our walls - they're right there hanging on pegs and filling the bins at .99 cent stores, *and consumer ignorance.*


Exactly... I recently encountered a teenager's bedroom where he had five plug strips all plugged in a series... all loaded with his various electronic toys and a space heater. He and his dumb dad couldn't figure out why the breaker kept tripping.


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

There was a restaurant that burned down about 15 years ago. The cause of the fire was a power cord to a piece of equipment under the carpet with a table leg on it. It was a high resistance arc and never tripped the circuit breaker. How would a fused plug prevent the fire? The equipment used 12.6 amps so a 5 amp arc could start a fire but never trip the breaker or fuse, unless the arc got large enough but by that time it would be too late. A lot of house fires start in the attic when the squirrels chew the cables. Again a high resistance arc that never will trip the breaker until the fire gets going.


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

I noticed many comments about the dangers of power strips and heaters or people plugging too much into them. Or daisy chaining power strips. All these and more are against the listing of the products and the directions. You cannot plug a 1500 watt heater into a bedroom circuit or an extension cord or a power strip. Power strips serve a correct purpose and they all have an overload built into them. People do stupid things like keep gasoline for the portable generator in the living room. I have been in houses that were running the generator in the living room because they did not want anybody to steel it. I wish the AFCI were as reliable as they claim because that would solve many problems. I think we should be concentrating on why the AFCI has nuisance tripping instead of complaining about them. We need some kind of guidance on what to look for. I just learned that the new smart meters are causing problems with the AFCI breakers. I would never have thought about it.


----------



## MoscaFibra (Apr 15, 2021)

Are you suggesting only home owners can do something this bad? For those that can't see it, those are plug in wrap around heating cords.....and in their defense the owner basically told them this is all their getting go do your work. 

I would be curious what the actual source of house fires is, I only know of one person who had one. It was caused by blown in insulation between floors and aluminum wire to a copper connection in a light arcing. Whole house went up.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

All this blah, blah, blah about fuses and arc faults.

I built a house once and roughed in the CPVC sprinkler pipe. It isn’t expensive considering the cost of a house. Why aren’t houses sprinkled?


----------



## cuba_pete (Dec 8, 2011)

That's a mighty tidy workstation!


----------



## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

99cents said:


> All this blah, blah, blah about fuses and arc faults.
> 
> I built a house once and roughed in the CPVC sprinkler pipe. It isn’t expensive considering the cost of a house. Why aren’t houses sprinkled?


I think it depends on where you live.
"Fire sprinkler systems are now required on all new California single family residences (SFRs) and duplexes built on or after January 1, 2011."

It’s part of Senate Bill 1069 California Residential Code section R313.2


----------



## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

Easy said:


> I think it depends on where you live.
> "Fire sprinkler systems are now required on all new California single family residences (SFRs) and duplexes built on or after January 1, 2011."
> 
> It’s part of Senate Bill 1069 California Residential Code section R313.2


Well if someone was going to mandate that it's not surprising it's California.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

MoscaFibra said:


> View attachment 156800
> 
> 
> Are you suggesting only home owners can do something this bad? For those that can't see it, those are plug in wrap around heating cords.....and in their defense the owner basically told them this is all their getting go do your work.
> ...


What the heck is going on there?


----------



## MoscaFibra (Apr 15, 2021)

Easy said:


> I think it depends on where you live.
> "Fire sprinkler systems are now required on all new California single family residences (SFRs) and duplexes built on or after January 1, 2011."
> 
> It’s part of Senate Bill 1069 California Residential Code section R313.2


Do...Do they even have the water to supply such a system?


LGLS said:


> What the heck is going on there?


3 120V wrap around heater cords, 1 120V plug that was providing control power to the old panel, and a dollar store power bar covered in the gunk they make here that is corrosive to plastics. This isn't even the bad part of their equipment....


----------



## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

joe-nwt said:


> Well if someone was going to mandate that it's not surprising it's California.


Yes my wonderful state where everything causes cancer and are required have warning labels on everything, including lumber and food products. 
*Strange Laws in All of California*
1. It is illegal for autonomous vehicles to drive over 60 miles per hour.
2. It is illegal for women to drive vehicles while wearing a housecoat.
3. Homeowners who have Christmas lights on their houses past February 2 may be subject to a fine of up to $250. 
4. It is illegal to pour salt on a highway in Hermosa Beach.
5. In Long Beach, it is prohibited to put anything other than cars in a garage.
6. In Downey, you cannot wash your vehicle in the street.
7. In Los Angeles, it is not legal to wash your neighbor’s car if you have not gotten their permission.
8. In Blythe, you are only permitted to wear cowboy boots if you own at least two cows.

And so on .....


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

MoscaFibra said:


> Do...Do they even have the water to supply such a system?


Residential sprinkler heads are more "misters" and don't gush out water like a commercial head. Search YouTube a typical 3/4 or 5/8 or 7/8 water supply at 50+ PSI is plenty.


> 3 120V wrap around heater cords, 1 120V plug that was providing control power to the old panel, and a dollar store power bar covered in the gunk they make here that is corrosive to plastics. This isn't even the bad part of their equipment....


If this is the state of manufacturing in the United States no wonder every other country is kicking our arses.


----------



## MoscaFibra (Apr 15, 2021)

LGLS said:


> Residential sprinkler heads are more "misters" and don't gush out water like a commercial head. Search YouTube a typical 3/4 or 5/8 or 7/8 water supply at 50+ PSI is plenty.
> If this is the state of manufacturing in the United States no wonder every other country is kicking our arses.


Well, feel better about one thing its in Canada and not the US lol. 

sadly, I would say I find this to be more normal for the state of manufacturing here than abnormal......


----------



## cuba_pete (Dec 8, 2011)

Easy said:


> Yes my wonderful state where everything causes cancer and are required have warning labels on everything, including lumber and food products.
> *Strange Laws in All of California*


Dang...never had that problem for #7


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

The tower fire in London was caused by a fire in a refrigerator. Was there a fuse in the cord? If so, why didn’t it work?

I highly doubt if every cord in Europe is fuse protected. A better solution is a resettable device in the wall.


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

99cents said:


> The tower fire in London was caused by a fire in a refrigerator. Was there a fuse in the cord? If so, why didn’t it work?
> 
> I highly doubt if every cord in Europe is fuse protected. A better solution is a resettable device in the wall.


A resettable device like an AFCI / GFCI dual function receptacle?


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

kb1jb1 said:


> A resettable device like an AFCI / GFCI dual function receptacle?


Yes. Better than a glass fuse or tin foil in a cord.


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

99cents said:


> Yes. Better than a glass fuse or tin foil in a cord.


Tin foil in a cord. I remember as a young person maybe 8 / 10 years old we use to take an old lamp cord and strip the ends and twist a piece of tin foil to it. Then the fun began. We plugged it in. Coming from a family of electricians , I guess that was expected. Now I am scared to turn on a circuit breaker.


----------



## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

kb1jb1 said:


> A resettable device like an AFCI / GFCI dual function receptacle?


Provided that it actually works, yes. 

Further, since it's a safety device, profit margins need to be extremely thin.....really extremely thin.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

The problem with a resettable device in the wall is it has to be easily accessible. Behind a fridge isn’t easily accessible (but neither is a fuse in a cord).


----------



## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

99cents said:


> The problem with a resettable device in the wall is it has to be easily accessible. Behind a fridge isn’t easily accessible (but neither is a fuse in a cord).


Some refrigerators come with large touch screens that you can put family photos on, plan meals and even order food. For a few extra dollars the manufacturer could install resettable protection that could be accessed by the user on the head end rather than in the wall behind the refer.


----------



## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

MoscaFibra said:


> View attachment 156800
> 
> 
> Are you suggesting only home owners can do something this bad? For those that can't see it, those are plug in wrap around heating cords.....and in their defense the owner basically told them this is all their getting go do your work.
> ...


This image reminds me of a few years back when I worked at Boeing and all the departments were allowed to order what ever they wanted. We had so many people who would plug in personal heaters into cheap plastic power strips and in some cases they just melted and were on carpeted floors. Eventually the in house fire department had us remove them and hand out Metal power strips. By the time we were done we had a 30 yard dumpster half way full or old power strips. We were also told to comfiscape all the heaters as well and that was like pulling teeth is some cases.


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Easy said:


> This image reminds me of a few years back when I worked at Boeing and all the departments were allowed to order what ever they wanted. We had so many people who would plug in personal heaters into cheap plastic power strips and in some cases they just melted and were on carpeted floors. Eventually the in house fire department had us remove them and hand out Metal power strips. By the time we were done we had a 30 yard dumpster half way full or old power strips. We were also told to comfiscape all the heaters as well and that was like pulling teeth is some cases.


I love how some office people do not comprehend probable heaters and these plug strips. One place i worked at, some of the women were cold so they were given heaters. One summer day when it was 92 degrees out they were still cold and the three 1500 watt heaters were tripping out the circuit breaker. The floor manager did not understand that they put the heater under the BMS sensor. The computer said it was 76 degrees but in actuality it was down to 68 degrees. Also when you do the math 1500 X 3 = 4500 watts on a 20 amp circuit. Logic did not prevail so at night, under HSE direction, we confiscated all portable heaters.


----------



## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

The problem with most ext cords and power bars are the cheap-ass junk receptacles on them.

Fuse (or resetable breaker) won't help. It's the piece of crap cord end that will melt down or burn.


----------



## MoscaFibra (Apr 15, 2021)

kb1jb1 said:


> I love how some office people do not comprehend probable heaters and these plug strips. One place i worked at, some of the women were cold so they were given heaters. One summer day when it was 92 degrees out they were still cold and the three 1500 watt heaters were tripping out the circuit breaker. The floor manager did not understand that they put the heater under the BMS sensor. The computer said it was 76 degrees but in actuality it was down to 68 degrees. Also when you do the math 1500 X 3 = 4500 watts on a 20 amp circuit. Logic did not prevail so at night, under HSE direction, we confiscated all portable heaters.


Back when I did building system automation, we would sometimes install a fake stat with a fake read out to just to appease some office staff....honestly worked more than I care to ever admit.


----------



## dspiffy (Nov 25, 2013)

MoscaFibra said:


> Back when I did building system automation, we would sometimes install a fake stat with a fake read out to just to appease some office staff....honestly worked more than I care to ever admit.


Reminds me of audio engineering. Always have a couple empty/dead channels on the mixing board for when someone from the label walks in and asks to change XYZ.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

99cents said:


> The problem with a resettable device in the wall is it has to be easily accessible. Behind a fridge isn’t easily accessible (but neither is a fuse in a cord).


In England every cord plug has a fuse in it. Not the whole of Europe. For larger appliances the receptacle must be located in an accessible location - as their receptacles all incorporate on/off switches and the fused plug must be available for servicing. So a receptacle for a fridge would be located in a cabinet next to it, or an open wall space.


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

LGLS said:


> In England every cord plug has a fuse in it. Not the whole of Europe. For larger appliances the receptacle must be located in an accessible location - as their receptacles all incorporate on/off switches and the fused plug must be available for servicing. So a receptacle for a fridge would be located in a cabinet next to it, or an open wall space.


The plugs are also the size of a dryer plug on a 16 gauge wire. From what I remember they also have fewer receptacles per room.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

kb1jb1 said:


> The plugs are also the size of a dryer plug on a 16 gauge wire. From what I remember they also have fewer receptacles per room.


Nah not that big, but larger than our plugs yes.


----------



## ECC808 (Sep 21, 2012)

LGLS said:


> In England every cord plug has a fuse in it. Not the whole of Europe.


The reason why England (and only England) has fuses in the cord plugs has to do with the unique ring wiring which was developped during WW2 in order to save raw material. Ring wiring doesn't allow to install centralized fuses. See:



https://electrical.theiet.org/media/1688/the-origin-of-the-bs-1363-plug-and-socket-outlet-system.pdf



or



https://tinyurl.com/fb3x8utc



Nick Salis


----------



## Quickservice (Apr 23, 2020)

Easy said:


> This image reminds me of a few years back when I worked at Boeing and all the departments were allowed to order what ever they wanted. We had so many people who would plug in personal heaters into cheap plastic power strips and in some cases they just melted and were on carpeted floors. Eventually the in house fire department had us remove them and hand out Metal power strips. By the time we were done we had a 30 yard dumpster half way full or old power strips. *We were also told to comfiscape all the heaters as well and that was like pulling teeth is some cases.*


Been there many times... office people would rather burn down the building that give up their space heaters.


----------



## housewhisperer (Jun 30, 2021)

joe-nwt said:


> We use lamp cords all the time.
> 
> View attachment 156791
> 
> ...


Along with a 200 Watt bulb - or in the garage ceiling, the automatic operator and a freezer. The possibilities are almost endless.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

ECC808 said:


> The reason why England (and only England) has fuses in the cord plugs has to do with the unique ring wiring which was developped during WW2 in order to save raw material. Ring wiring doesn't allow to install centralized fuses. See:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Good reading Nick, thanks. However, their ring mains do have a fuse/breaker in their "consumer unit."


----------



## oldwirepuller (Dec 12, 2015)

99cents said:


> A fuse won’t detect arc faults, at least not low level arcing and sparking.


A lot of so called "arc fault" breakers don't detect arc faults. They are good for making manufacturers money and inspectors fullfilled.


----------



## JUSTMISSED (Jan 3, 2009)

LGLS said:


> Why is it possible we protect a circuit with a 20 amp OCPD, but can plug a multi-tap cable in that is only #18 or #16 awg and can turn into a heater? Run that "heavy duty" cord under the bed and through the drapes and connect a 1600 watt heater and the vacuum in there?


Legally you can't do that.


----------



## JUSTMISSED (Jan 3, 2009)

LGLS said:


> Why is it possible we protect a circuit with a 20 amp OCPD, but can plug a multi-tap cable in that is only #18 or #16 awg and can turn into a heater? Run that "heavy duty" cord under the bed and through the drapes and connect a 1600 watt heater and the vacuum in there?


Also the only HEAVY DUTY ext. cords start at #8AWG, MEDIUM #10 & 12 AWG, Light duty #14 AWG and up


----------



## Djea3 (Mar 8, 2019)

In one kitchen remodel we had a client who had 5 servers in a room in his house. He had run dedicated services to them and was required to use arc fault protection under the permit. The house was 1960's. Every time the wife ran her hair dryer in the bathroom, it would blow all the arc faults, same with the vacuum in the living room.
So after telling me this, next day it AFCI tripped his servers again. He came in yelling at us saying "this never happened before you began rewiring the kitchen, blah, blah .blah. 
The boss was standing there. I turned and told the other electrician, pack up, we are done here. (Boss's jaw drops to floor). I said "we are not working here with false accusations flying around". (started packing up).
Client "hey, you can't just leave like this!". me: "Yes we are". Client: "but...but" Me: "for two days you have told me about your problems with the afci circuitry. Now you want to accuse us of causing it, I am sorry but under the circumstances we are going to have to leave before more accusations are leveled at us". 
Started packing...boss looking really perplexed.....client: "I am sorry, you are right". Me "you know if you ask if we can possible help with this problem I would think that it might be resolved before we leave, but acting that way it definitely won't." Client "Could you please see if you can help?". Me "alright boys back to work". 
At the truck a couple of minutes later the boss shows up. Boss: "you sure told him." All laugh.

Bottom line, I have had more crap from AFC than my share. I hate them. The argument originally was that worn out receptacles with bedsheets can cause fires, especially with slumlords. Now it's "what if someone drives a nail into the wire (what with plates everywhere by code?)". The ONLY reason is because insurance can save ten cents by causing everyone else to spend thousands, after all they OWN the NEC.


----------

