# Good to see this



## jordan_paul (Oct 4, 2011)

Then below it there should be another sign:

"Completion date-Christmas 2012
Actual completion date- Labour Day 2013"


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## union347sparky (Feb 29, 2012)

jordan_paul said:


> Then below it there should be another sign:
> 
> "Completion date-Christmas 2012
> Actual completion date- Labour Day 2013"


Continued by at least it won't burn down or burden the tax payer to fix all the mistakes made by rats.


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## Pistol_Pete (Aug 17, 2012)

Ewww good one.......


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)




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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

union347sparky said:


> Continued by at least it won't burn down or burden the tax payer to fix all the mistakes made by rats.


 I have no problem with unions and think they serve a valuable purpose, but attitudes like this make them look bad. Just saying.

Just speaking generally, why the hell does it seem like every controversial issue turns into "My team is awesome and your team sucks!"

-John


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Big John said:


> I have no problem with unions and think they serve a valuable purpose, but attitudes like this make them look bad. Just saying.
> 
> Just speaking generally, why the hell does it seem like every controversial issue turns into "My team is awesome and your team sucks!"
> 
> -John


You have to realize the OP works in a monoculture and really believes that only union workers do quality work. After almost 30 years in the trade, half as a union electrician, that perception is universal and of course wrong.


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## Amish Electrician (Jan 2, 2010)

I've said it before, but it's worth repeating .... let's review a few of the facts of life:

First off, I have never been a union electrician. That will help you understand that I know of what I speak ...

IBEW electricians were the first electricians I worked alongside - and, to a man, they were extremely competent and professional. Their contractors made sure they had whatever equipment that was needed. The union guys were folks to admire.

I doubt there are very many non-union sparkies who didn't apply for the JATC apprenticeship at some point. The only reason they didn't "go union" is because someone else called first. Those who never had a formal apprenticeship are missing out; fortunately, there are non-union apprenticeships available today.

Sure, the whole JATC / IBEW thing is a dismal failure in terms of public relations. They seem to go out of their way to treat you with disrespect. "We're big, and you're nothing" seems to be the mantra. Well, that doesn't take away from the simple fact that the guys actually working do a darn good job.

It's telling that the main selling point of the non-union shops seems to be price ... and that price is subsidized by the lower wages and non-existent benefits of the non-union shops. Non-union shops are also far more likely to have inadequate equipment, making the job lots harder than it needs to be.

I'm glad to see that someone is working these days, that some jobs are moving forward.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Amish Electrician said:


> I've said it before, but it's worth repeating .... let's review a few of the facts of life:
> 
> First off, I have never been a union electrician. That will help you understand that I know of what I speak ...
> 
> ...


 
Part of the issue with keeping open shops open is few unions bother with residential. I know in our local many "A" men look down on residential work, and openly claim they WILL NOT DO THAT TRASH WORK, it is beneath them. Better to sit on the bench?

Additionally having started open shop and experienced union BS the first summer in the trade and knowing many open shop men and owners have received similar crappy treatment from SOME union “BROTHERS (?) this poisoned their view of unions. Me I swallowed all that crap and joined for more pay and better benefits. Some men will never join, some men will never be asked to join.

Additionally (speaking for my area) being a small union shop in the past was not an easy endeavor. In the last 25 years the local has gone out of its way to accommodate small shops.

In the end I see very little difference in open shop or union (other than pay and benefits). Both are men and women that want a steady job, want to do good work, take pride in what they do, and would like good pay and benefits. Some are afforded the options others are not.

With the restricted hiring policy most locals have, and hungry young workers that want and need a job what is a fellow to do, if he can’t get in the union but wants to do electrical work?


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

Big John said:


> I have no problem with unions and think they serve a valuable purpose, but attitudes like this make them look bad. Just saying.
> 
> Just speaking generally, why the hell does it seem like every controversial issue turns into "My team is awesome and your team sucks!"
> 
> -John


And what's your keen insight on this post that you completely failed to mention? Looks like just about every poster in here is jumping on the union-bashing bandwagon, and you're calling out the OP?



jordan_paul said:


> Then below it there should be another sign:
> 
> "Completion date-Christmas 2012
> Actual completion date- Labour Day 2013"


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

erics37 said:


> And what's your keen insight on this post that you completely failed to mention? Looks like just about every poster in here is jumping on the union-bashing bandwagon, and you're calling out the OP?


Why is it that union guys can dish it out but say one thing against the union and it is 'bashing'?


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Well, better hope they do a better job on this than they did on THEIR OWN HEADQUARTERS...


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

erics37 said:


> And what's your keen insight on this post that you completely failed to mention...?


 That's wrong, too. Everyone has overruns, union and non. But it struck me a little more personally when someone implies that those who aren't in a local are incompetent at their craft.


> ...Looks like just about every poster in here is jumping on the union-bashing bandwagon, and you're calling out the OP?


 What I said is *not *union bashing, unless you consider OP's attitude to be an important part of unionization. I think it hurts more than it helps.

-John


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## bhardman86 (Nov 23, 2011)

Big John said:


> I have no problem with unions and think they serve a valuable purpose, but attitudes like this make them look bad. Just saying.
> 
> Just speaking generally, why the hell does it seem like every controversial issue turns into "My team is awesome and your team sucks!"
> 
> -John



Technically non-union workers have no team. :whistling2:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

bhardman86 said:


> Technically non-union workers have no team. :whistling2:


Actually any gorup of workers putting forth effort to complete a project is typically called a team.


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## bhardman86 (Nov 23, 2011)

Yeah.. It was a play on words. :001_huh:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

bhardman86 said:


> Yeah.. It was a play on words. :001_huh:


 
I understood, but understanding never stopped me.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Well, better hope they do a better job on this than they did on THEIR OWN HEADQUARTERS...


That meme is already old. Do we really need to go into any one of a thousand hack electrician threads and wave pics around. If all you got is this one pic representing the work of three quarters of a million workers I feel good about things....:whistling2:

On the other hand, it is darn embarrassing.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

eejack said:


> That meme is already old. Do we really need to go into any one of a thousand hack electrician threads and wave pics around. If all you got is this one pic representing the work of three quarters of a million workers I feel good about things....:whistling2:
> 
> On the other hand, it is darn embarrassing.


Shockdoc has posted plenty of hack union work too. The point is, get off your high horse, nobody's perfect.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

backstay said:


> You have to realize the OP works in a monoculture and really believes that only union workers do quality work. After almost 30 years in the trade, half as a union electrician, that perception is universal and of course wrong.


Honestly I know quite a few good non union mechanics ( and for those who say A members don't do residential - let me show you the dozens of houses we do every year for habitat for humanity and others ).

I won't lie to you and say non union workers overall have the same level of quality as union workers. That is understandable as non union shops have no universal education and/or training certifications. The union culture includes schooling whereas the non union culture does not.

That doesn't mean there are not good non union mechanics out there, I know them and have worked with them. It does mean that the *typical *union journeyman went through 5 years of school along with their 5 years of apprenticeship and the same cannot be said for the *typical* non union electrician.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

brian john said:


> Actually any gorup of workers putting forth effort to complete a project is typically called a team.


Ah...the team buzzspeak. The whole concept originated in the twenties - work of Maslow and Mayo. Corrupted by the NAM and their 'American Plan'.

You really have to love all the old union busting methods - they had an elegance about them. 

Anyway, sports have teams, work has crews.


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

This will never happen. Wishful thinking. What if union and nonunion worked together in some way to improve our trade as a whole?


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Chris1971 said:


> This will never happen. Wishful thinking. What if union and nonunion worked together in some way to improve our trade as a whole?


It is not a bad thought - but something would need to be done to bridge the cultural gap. 

On one hand you have very large businesses who spend lots of effort to bust unions, and part of the way they do that is convince the general public that unions are bad, union workers lazy, blah blah blah.

On the other hand, unions have always had and them or us attitude ( probably due to 100 years of union busting ) and a lot of bluster due to the style of work we do. Unions are also a bit clannish which doesn't lend itself to dealing with outsiders.

Even the language is against it - union or non union are safe terms but pretty much everything else is insulting to someone.

However if anyone has a place to start, I suspect we can find enough fair minded folk to give it a try.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

eejack said:


> Honestly I know quite a few good non union mechanics ( and for those who say A members don't do residential - let me show you the dozens of houses we do every year for habitat for humanity and others ).
> 
> I won't lie to you and say non union workers overall have the same level of quality as union workers. That is understandable as non union shops have no universal education and/or training certifications. The union culture includes schooling whereas the non union culture does not.
> 
> That doesn't mean there are not good non union mechanics out there, I know them and have worked with them. It does mean that the *typical *union journeyman went through 5 years of school along with their 5 years of apprenticeship and the same cannot be said for the *typical* non union electrician.


 
But understand the following is possible, they finish their apprenticship, and barely skate by in school and work. Cheating off others, falling asleep in class, talk alot and learn the "lingo" And become a journeyman. 

Whereas, as nonunion would have to take a state certification test to become a journeyman. One electrician can fake it and make it, and the other electrician has to prove it to the state. So, IMO, it's possible to be a union journeyman and not know diddy squat. I know them and have worked with them. They can talk a good game but can't actually perform. whereas, in a non union shop, you can be fired at the drop of a hat for not performing, you won't have the union backing you. So, again, IMO, it stands to reason that non union workers try harder, work faster, and get more done than the union workers. There's two side to every coin.


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## Speedlimit190 (Apr 29, 2012)

McClary, WTF are you talking about? Do you really think that union members don't have to pass tests for licenses and certifications? Or that you are more likely to find skilled workers at an open shop with no school vs a union shop with mandatory school? Too far, you just sound like you're trying to stir the pot with lies. Find something better to do.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Speedlimit190 said:


> McClary, WTF are you talking about? Do you really think that union members don't have to pass tests for licenses and certifications? Or that you are more likely to find skilled workers at an open shop with no school vs a union shop with mandatory school? Too far, you just sound like you're trying to stir the pot with lies. Find something better to do.


 
They don't take the same certification test that we do.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

mcclary's electrical said:


> But understand the following is possible, they finish their apprenticship, and barely skate by in school and work. Cheating off others, falling asleep in class, talk alot and learn the "lingo" And become a journeyman.
> 
> Whereas, as nonunion would have to take a state certification test to become a journeyman. One electrician can fake it and make it, and the other electrician has to prove it to the state. So, IMO, it's possible to be a union journeyman and not know diddy squat. I know them and have worked with them. They can talk a good game but can't actually perform. whereas, in a non union shop, you can be fired at the drop of a hat for not performing, you won't have the union backing you. So, again, IMO, it stands to reason that non union workers try harder, work faster, and get more done than the union workers. There's two side to every coin.


Since not every employer uses these state certifications and not every state even has them your point about passing some test is pointless. Put up a poll on this site - how many of you have passed some sort of test?
Every union journeyman has to say yes to that question. I rather doubt the non union numbers would be that high.

So, your response to that is 'well, you can fake your way through your union tests'. And your presentation of said 'facts' implies that all union members are lazy lying cheaters. You 'knowing' some unions guys that don't know 'diddly squat' proves it. Bollocks.

I do not doubt that many non union workers are excellent at their trade. I also do not doubt that the same percentage of bull****ters, backstabbers, and lazy workers exist in *every* trade - union or non union. There is not some magic non union pixie dust that makes workers go faster and try harder. In fact, I suspect that good politics and screwing your coworker skills are more important to the non union worker than the union worker.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

I've worked both sides of the fence, and currently work closely with union crews as a merit guy. I really don't see a hell of a lot of difference in performance one side to the other. 

I think unions perform a valuable service in that they provide a form of protection for the worker in a system that has proven it is willing to exploit men for profit margins unless there are protections in place. Unfortunately, those same motivators--power and greed--can and do corrupt unions. 

I think we as workers are gonna be in one awful sorry spot once the last labor unions die out, but that still doesn't excuse the failure of many construction locals to police their own, hence we hear a lot of that nonsense like that "rat" business posted above.

Y'all as union members should be fighting to demonstrate your value and encouraging the non-union guys to participate, not trying to alienate them. Isn't the grand ideal of the labor union to provide equal protection for *all workers?* Non-union workers are not your enemies.

-John


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Big John said:


> Y'all as union members should be fighting to demonstrate your value and encouraging the non-union guys to participate, not trying to alienate them. Isn't the grand ideal of the labor union to provide equal protection for *all workers?* Non-union workers are not your enemies.
> 
> -John


Despite what are some of your best postings here John, i fear you'll never get through to some of what are no more than puffed chests 

and it's sad too..... it's sad because anyone who knows the history of unions, anyone who's had family who's fought for them, anyone who has the sense labor is under attack in America right now does _not_ need this divide created

That Unions have been digging thier own graves and why is debatable, but what stands to reason is that when they go down, the rest of the labor pool will go down with them

or to put a twist to Capt. Woodward Phillip's "_Don't cheer boys the poor devils are dying" ........_us rats will go down with the ship too!

~CS~


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

chicken steve said:


> That Unions have been digging thier own graves and why is debatable, but what stands to reason is that when they go down, the rest of the labor pool will go down with them


When you have businesses spending millions to break unions so that they can get more for less from all their workers, every single thing that unions do is under amazing scrutiny.

It is easy to get people to worked up about things - and antiunionism may be at an all time high. Heck...look at this board. There is NO reason why your typical electrician should have a problem with unions. Seriously, no reason.

Yet the anti union posting here is non stop.

And unions are not helping themselves - partially and particularly by not calling the money behind the anti union movement out and into the open.

A guy like Rick Berman makes 10 million dollars a year to lobby against unions. Ten Million. In a year. More than double what I will might in my entire lifetime, he makes in one year, trying to destroy my livelyhood. When it comes down to it, he is trying to destroy every wage earners livelyhood. 

Who does that benefit? Certainly not the anti union posters on this board, yet they continue to pound away against their own interests. Can anyone explain to me why?


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

eejack said:


> When you have businesses spending millions to break unions so that they can get more for less from all their workers, every single thing that unions do is under amazing scrutiny.
> 
> It is easy to get people to worked up about things - and antiunionism may be at an all time high. Heck...look at this board. There is NO reason why your typical electrician should have a problem with unions. Seriously, no reason.
> 
> ...


It's not the unions and what they stand for that people bash. It's the union arrogance, elitism and sense of entitlement that us lowly regular people get tired of.
Oh and blocking the aisles on jobs they share with a non-union co.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

BBQ said:


> Why is it that union guys can dish it out but say one thing against the union and it is 'bashing'?


Thin skin and entitlement.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

eejack said:


> . Can anyone explain to me why?


i wish i could eejack

i notice the union guys of tenure speak a lot better here

maybe they have a little more knowledge of union history, and when one's read up and/or simply lived it , there's a certian amount of respect that goes with that knowledge

inasmuch as i live in Vermont, where unions aren't so strong, i've a lot of family south that fought the good fight for them, grandparents who went up against the pinkertons, uncles who became union reps, etc

where are these sorts now? why do they not welcome us into the fold? why aren't they advocating the collectivism that made this country's best and brightest middle class ever seen on this rock? where has the ideal of unionism gone?

~CS~


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

sbrn33 said:


> It's not the unions and what they stand for that people bash. It's the union arrogance, elitism and sense of entitlement that us lowly regular people get tired of.
> Oh and blocking the aisles on jobs they share with a non-union co.


Lies, all lies!!!! Union thugs would never... uh nevermind.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

chicken steve said:


> where are these sorts now? why do they not welcome us into the fold? why aren't they advocating the collectivism that made this country's best and brightest middle class ever seen on this rock? where has the ideal of unionism gone?
> 
> ~CS~


That is a very good question. I don't know.

We ( unions in general ) had an excellent opportunity to advocate for everyone up in Wisconsin and we dropped the ball. I think it is because we do not have any dynamic leaders right now, maybe we have lost that ferocity that once defined us.

Maybe all those folks are going to college and staying out of the trades.

It is an interesting point.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

I will say with rare exception it seems that few of the well trained union guys post in the NEC or Electrical sections? By design?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

eejack said:


> That is a very good question. I don't know.
> 
> We ( unions in general ) had an excellent opportunity to advocate for everyone up in Wisconsin and we dropped the ball. I think it is because we do not have any dynamic leaders right now, maybe we have lost that ferocity that once defined us.
> 
> ...


The trades are generally looked down on by many parents feeling college is the only way to success and the easy life. I have posted before about my talks with the high school counselors.

I told them in April when they know the students that seem to be decent folks with no designs to go to college, just give them my business card I'd take at least one and refer the rest to the hall. Did this for 3 years never heard from the schools or any students.

My kids did refer graduating students to me, some worked out others did not. I have one working for me now just came out of his time.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Chris1971 said:


> This will never happen. Wishful thinking. What if union and nonunion worked together in some way to improve our trade as a whole?


The whole business and employees would benefit.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

brian john said:


> The trades are generally looked down on by many parents feeling college is the only way to success and the easy life. I have posted before about my talks with the high school counselors.
> 
> I told them in April when they know the students that seem to be decent folks with no designs to go to college, just give them my business card I'd take at least one and refer the rest to the hall. Did this for 3 years never heard from the schools or any students.
> 
> My kids did refer graduating students to me, some worked out others did not. I have one working for me now just came out of his time.


IN my area there are waiting lists to get into the Vocational schools.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

electricmanscott said:


> IN my area there are waiting lists to get into the Vocational schools.


I think it has changed some but in this area, most of the parents are college educated and expect the same for their kids.

When I attend parties I am often asked where I went to "school". When I say I did not they look at me funny and wonder how I could live where I do.


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## 347sparky (May 14, 2012)

brian john said:


> The trades are generally looked down on by many parents feeling college is the only way to success and the easy life.


Many of the high schools in my area geared towards the college and computer related jobs. Junior High shop classes disappeared, the shop areas became smaller for less kids, and a lot of programs vanished. I talked to the high school principal and he couldn't understand why all the shop classes were always in demand. They figured because they got rid of 7th and 8th grade shop no one would want to take it in high school.


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## jordan_paul (Oct 4, 2011)

erics37 said:


> And what's your keen insight on this post that you completely failed to mention? Looks like just about every poster in here is jumping on the union-bashing bandwagon, and you're calling out the OP?


My keen insight that I failed to mention is the fact that I'm an sworn in, full card carrying member of the IBEW who used to be a "scab". Trust me, I've seen it.

The way it works is that the **** workers work the big jobs because no one else wants them. That way they can hide, make mistakes, slow down the job etc and the hall will back them. The good workers like me get picked up by a company and we work for them busting our backs and doing what it takes to make the company money because thats why we are employed, to make somebody money.

I've worked on a big job with alot of ****ty IBEW electricians. They slowed it down, were the most ignorant people I've ever met, and wern't that good. For fun I used to ask them how to wire a 3 way switch, only five or six on the crew got it right. I was close to going back to non union but landed myself a good job with a small company. 

Case in point though. We got super busy December of last year and the boss put a call out for a licensed guy. A couple days later a 65 year old man shows up saying he took the call. All the guys are thinking he would be really good, show us how it's done and out work us due to his amount of experience. We found out quite the opposite in about an hour. For one he couldn't bend pipe that well so my boss gave him another job to wire up some machines but he couldnt read schematics. He gave him another job setting up a pull but he didnt feel it necessary to actually tape the rope on the wires so half way through the pull the rope came off. It took him 45 minutes to do a receptacle. It took him 8 hours to put a celing fan up once, and when he was finished it didn't work because he couldnt read the line diagram telling him how to wire up the receiver. He couldn't do control, he couldn't troubleshoot. I had to show him how to wire a 200hp motor one time. Pretty much if you wanted him to do something you had to show him how to do it first, but he would still manage to eaither screw it up or take forever doing it. It got to the point no one would work with him because no one wanted to hold his hand anymore. So the boss had to **** can him. 

I don't get that at all. He has 47 years IBEW experience in the trade but yet he had the skill level of a first year apprentice. If the IBEW was as good as most members clain it is he wouldn't have fallen through the cracks all these years. He used to work in Toronto mostly doing high rise commerical so we guess he just showed up to work and hid for the day because there can be no other explanation for how he could be so bad. And this old guy isn't the only one that has shown up and has been crap eaither. 

From what I've seen the majoirty of IBEW guys aren't that good but have this pretentious ideal that they are the best of the best because they are in the union. It makes me shake my head in shame every time they open their mouths so because of that I dont tell people I am a union worker. I essentially hide the fact that I am apart of the IBEW.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

347sparky said:


> Many of the high schools in my area geared towards the college and computer related jobs. Junior High shop classes disappeared, the shop areas became smaller for less kids, and a lot of programs vanished. I talked to the high school principal and he couldn't understand why all the shop classes were always in demand. They figured because they got rid of 7th and 8th grade shop no one would want to take it in high school.


Our votech for electrical classes stopped several years ago.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

union347sparky said:


> Saw this today. Need to see more of them. This is going to be a multi-use complex.


I think it is a good sign to see anybody getting back to work. Recent news reports seem to say we may be heading backwards, mostly due to the European crisis.


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## angryceltic (Feb 21, 2012)

brian john said:


> The trades are generally looked down on by many parents feeling college is the only way to success and the easy life. I have posted before about my talks with the high school counselors.
> 
> I told them in April when they know the students that seem to be decent folks with no designs to go to college, just give them my business card I'd take at least one and refer the rest to the hall. Did this for 3 years never heard from the schools or any students.
> 
> My kids did refer graduating students to me, some worked out others did not. I have one working for me now just came out of his time.


Ive done a ton of work in voc schools. In my area they have tons of money, excellent equipment and great teachers.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

angryceltic said:


> Ive done a ton of work in voc schools. In my area they have tons of money, excellent equipment and great teachers.


Are you in a rural area? It seems in rural areas votech is stronger than in metropolitan areas.

West of here where it is more rural there seems to be more votech.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

jordan_paul said:


> My keen insight that I failed to mention is the fact that I'm an sworn in, full card carrying member of the IBEW who used to be a "scab". Trust me, I've seen it.
> 
> ...
> 
> From what I've seen the majoirty of IBEW guys aren't that good but have this pretentious ideal that they are the best of the best because they are in the union. It makes me shake my head in shame every time they open their mouths so because of that I dont tell people I am a union worker. I essentially hide the fact that I am apart of the IBEW.


Seriously?

I am ashamed that you and I carry the same card and I am glad you don't tell anyone you are an IBEW member.

Folks like yourself are why most locals only want fresh apprentices. You know nothing about being a member of a union. Your self importance and willingness to disparage the people you work with is atrocious. You are the kind of backstabbing butt kissing suck up that gives the entire trade, union and non union a bad name.

Get out of the union, better yet, get out of the business. If in fact you really are an electrician ( your older posts really don't indicate any real skill or talent ) and you really are a member of some IBEW local you should do yourself a favor and move into something you can really shine at. 

"From what you have seen"

I can smell the roses you are shoveling even over the stench of the jersey turnpike.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

eejack said:


> Seriously?
> 
> I am ashamed that you and I carry the same card and I am glad you don't tell anyone you are an IBEW member.
> 
> ...


I think the vast majority of union workers are excellent, hard workers, and well trained . But your outrage is a laughing joke, MAN UP BOY.


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## angryceltic (Feb 21, 2012)

brian john said:


> Are you in a rural area? It seems in rural areas votech is stronger than in metropolitan areas.
> 
> West of here where it is more rural there seems to be more votech.


It was all across Massachusetts. Rural and densely populated areas.


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

Well now...boy am I glad I found this thread...it's going to take some time to formulate a proper response for all of this...lol


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

I hope your not 65 years old with 47 year expierience are you? If you are your going to get your feelings hurt.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

icefalkon said:


> Well now...boy am I glad I found this thread...it's going to take some time to formulate a proper response for all of this...lol


Union workers are excellent though some are not the best.

Open Shop workers are excellent though some are not the best.

If the two could work together the trade, businesses and their lot in life would be better.

Seems simple enough


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Why is it that union guys can dish it out but say one thing against the union and it is 'bashing'?


I'm a union member, and as far as I can recall, I haven't bashed anyone based on union affiliation or lack thereof.

I do plenty of hack work, and I do plenty of nice work.  I don't really give a crap either way. Most of the union members here recognize that, as do most of the non-union guys. But maybe it's just me, but I see the non-union side jumping on the union side WAY more often here.

Like making snide comments completely unprovoked.


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

Well put Brian, well put.

No sbrn33...I'm not 65 with 47yrs...I'm 47 and going on 27yrs in the organization. I'm a 3rd generation Local 3 electrician and between my grandfather, father and myself we have over 100yrs within the IBEW. I grew up in a shop, a small union shop in Brooklyn, NY. In NYC we have a division of electricians formed in 1966 to combat the growing non union presence. These lower rate electricians specifically target the market where the open shops flourish. So...where I come from is a bit relevant. We did a lot of residential, a lot of deli's, jobbing and what not. We interacted with...and bid against all the non union electrical contractors within the city back then. As Brian, and I, have said in my short time posting here...there are many non union electricians that are excellent mechanics...and there are plenty of union electricians that should never pick up a tool. I've found in my limited experience that a lot of loudest mouths bashing the IBEW are guys that didn't make it into the IBEW. Lets address some of the issues I've found on this thread...

Union Electricians are clannish, self entitled snobs. ---- correct. However, just as not all non union electricians suck...not all IBEW Inside Wiremen have that mentality. There are reasons why many of my "brothers" act this way...and most of them point to the fact that they have limited experience dealing with those in the trade that aren't part of the "club". Many simply "drank the Kool Aid", and others have this belief that because they managed to get through their Apprenticeship they actually ARE entitled to act like assholes.On the other side of that coin is the fact that depending on the location...many of the non union electricians are simply not as well trained. 

The guy from Canada...who is a card carrying member...oh boy...how to say this...but here we go...you worked with an old timer who did in fact fall through the cracks. Guess what...it's a terrible thing. I had a similar experience as well. As a matter of fact, most General Foremen can tell countless stories of horror show individuals who somehow managed to keep getting sent to jobs. It happens, you work around it. Should this guy be sent out to work when there are hundreds if not thousands of guys more capable on the bench waiting for a job? Yes, he waited his turn, he went out. If he fails...then he gets laid off again and it's batter up...next guy gets a shot. I had someone with 40+ years sent to a deck job I was running. This is hard heavy work...and this old timer used to walk around a building with a pushcart changing ballasts for almost 30 years! Could he run the table bender...no...could he handle laying out...no...could he handle material logistics...no. I eventually got wind of the gentleman and called him to my trailer. I had to explain to him that unfortunately...I have a 58yr old locker pup taking care of tool distribution and I have no where else to put him. I gave him a shot, and it didn't work out. The point is, I don't care if you're up in Toronto, Canada...or NYC. There are people who do indeed slip through the cracks. I made a conscious decision when I was younger to NOT be the 65yr old guy carrying a tool bag around like my grandfather was. Perhaps this man needed the reality check to see that perhaps its time to hang the tool belt up. However, I don't find it surprising that an organized journeyman who made a conscious decision to become union would be complaining of the "skill level" of those that went through the program. It happens all the time. To me, that's just saying..."HA...I didn't go through your silly apprenticeship and I'm a better electrician than you are." Part of the problem with organizing is exactly what this member writes. Is he lying, no absolutely not, there are many out there who believe in the old adage..."A Grand a Week for Hide and Seek". However, THAT is not what being part of the IBEW is about. Look, I can teach you Code, I can teach you pipe bending, I can teach you Load Calculations and Theory...however...I CAN NOT force you to be the best in the world. That's up to you. Now that you ARE a member Jordan Paul, I suggest you take as many courses that are available to you at your local or better yet..why not put your experience to good use and volunteer to teach at your local? 

Moving on...McclarysElectrical...your comments are completely false. Just because you go through a 5yr Apprenticeship does not absolve you from State Testing. I can name quite a few jurisdictions that require ALL electricians to pass State Certification. IF your jurisdiction has a competency test, then it applies to everyone...anything else would be illegal. Examples of this are: California, Colorado, Connecticut, Minnesota and more. I've worked all over the country and have 3 Master Electrician Licenses and 5 Journeyman Licenses. Putting it out there that those who go through the IBEW's Apprenticeship are exempt from taking whatever form of competency exam YOU took is simply false. Now on to your observation that ALL IBEW Apprentices are lazy, do nothing, cheaters who can float their way through the program...I invite you to come on down to Local 3 in NYC and see the kind of program WE run...or how about 134 in Chicago, or 124 in Kansas City...again, your comment aren't based on fact they're based on prejudiced opinion. FACT of the matter is...if you cheat, you eventually will be found out. If you don't pass your Craft Certification Exam, you don't graduate, if you are lazy, dumb, and a slacker, you will be out of work more often than not. Those are facts. Do we have a problem that goes back a long time with guys acting with a sense of entitlement? Yes we do. Let me repeat that...yes we do. Are there people out there who actively try to change that mentality...yes there are. I am one of them. I fought for everything I have in this union, I teach Apprentice, Journeyman, and Master Level classes...I go after Journeymen and Apprentices who have a sense of entitlement and try to straighten them out. However, not everyone wants to bother to fix this. That's part of the problem. Back in the cay, if you acted like an entitled little ****...your FATHER got a phone call from SOMEONE...and you got straightened out. That doesn't happen anymore. Unfortunately...

Moving on...sbrn33...so it's not the IBEW you have a problem with, it's certain members that are jerks? Hmmm...thank god...here I was about to bash all Local 1 Plumbers because I saw one guys butt crack when he bent over! Why do union guys act elitist...why do they act arrogant...? Well, part of it is the program itself. When you're inducted from Day 1 you're taught and told that we are going to give you the tools to be the best electrician in the country. Some take that literally and others think they're related to someone so they get to act that way. It's wrong, it's defeatist in this day and age, and it's a dated way of thinking. Today, the organization is fighting for every inch of market share, and part of that fight is the perception others have of us.It needs to change and it's a slow process. Union members for a long time didn't realize that non union guys could take classes on their own, could literally become just as good...or almost as good as someone who went through the Apprenticeship. Once they run into some fantastic non union electricians, it's a rude wake up call. However, I don't lump all non union electricians into the "crap work" box...nor do I lump all union guys into the "brotherhood" category. 

Chicken Steve...there are many of us who've been around the block that were taught unionism by their fathers and grandfathers, many of us who would indeed welcome you to the fold. Here's a saying one of my mentors told me when I was a pup...This thing we have here in the IBEW is like a fruit orchard...if you want some fruit..no problem..take some. But in order for us to maintain our way of life...you need to plant more fruit bearing tree's...so if you want to take something from the orchard...feel free, but please remember to plant a seed or two while you're out there. Corny I know...but the meaning is there. I personally believe in welcoming others in for the greater good, I believe that every electrician of merit has something to teach and knows he has something to learn. I can't force my beliefs onto everyone though. I can only keep up the fight.

Now to everything on Page 1...there are plenty of pictures of non union "shoemaker" work...and there are plenty of union "shoemaker" pics...

It's not the UNION CARD that makes the electrician, it's the ELECTRICIAN that makes the Union Card. No we are NOT all created equal...some view this as a job, others as a career. You work with what you have, and try to weed out the bad and replace with the good. Does it always work out..no...but that don't mean you should stop trying now does it? 

Steve from NYC


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

> Chicken Steve...there are many of us who've been around the block that were taught unionism by their fathers and grandfathers, many of us who would indeed welcome you to the fold. Here's a saying one of my mentors told me when I was a pup...This thing we have here in the IBEW is like a fruit orchard...if you want some fruit..no problem..take some. But in order for us to maintain our way of life...you need to plant more fruit bearing tree's...so if you want to take something from the orchard...feel free, but please remember to plant a seed or two while you're out there. Corny I know...but the meaning is there. I personally believe in welcoming others in for the greater good, I believe that every electrician of merit has something to teach and knows he has something to learn. I can't force my beliefs onto everyone though. I can only keep up the fight.


an apt analogy Steve, i would only add that i'm rather convinced our symbiant relationship is being threatened by free traitors who wish to burn the orchard down.....~CS~


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Why is it that union guys can dish it out but say one thing against the union and it is 'bashing'?


Yeah, they sound like a bunch of Republicans...:laughing:


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

brian john said:


> Union workers are excellent though some are not the best.
> 
> Open Shop workers are excellent though some are not the best.
> 
> ...


Let's be honest, it's the _unions_ and in public work, the government, that prevent this, or make it very difficult.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

jrannis said:


> Yeah, they sound like a bunch of Republicans...:laughing:


:laughing: 


Keep that up and they won't let you in the club house anymore. :jester:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

erics37 said:


> I'm a union member, and as far as I can recall, I haven't bashed anyone based on union affiliation or lack thereof.


Hmm, the subject was 'the union' not Eric specifically.

How many times have you showed up at your job to find a dozen open shop guys there insulting you and telling you how you take the food off their kids plates?

Do they bring a large inflatable of a hard hatted guy in Carharts sitting on a compound bucket reading a paper? :jester:

Do they also try to get directly in your path trying to convince you not to go to work that day? 

I think if you are a union member you can't just be proud of the good things the union does you also have to accept some responsibility for the bad they do or work to change it.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Hmm, the subject was 'the union' not Eric specifically.
> 
> How many times have you showed up at your job to find a dozen open shop guys there insulting you and telling you how you take the food off their kids plates?
> 
> ...


Sorry that this has been your experience. It seems very isolated to very specific areas. I have never seen this and have worked union for 30 years. But,
I still do not understand why someone would work for less than the established wages and benefits and do the same work.


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## s.kelly (Mar 20, 2009)

Just FYI, I am in VA near McClary and he is correct as far as this state goes. I finished the JATC program and went and put in paperwork to get my state card, no test required. I am sure that is not true everywhere, but it is here. 

State apprenticeship board evaluated our program and determined it was "equivalent" or whatever.

I also expect he is right that someone could probably cheat their way thru and just get the card.

I also would say that the test really does not prove much. I am really good at test taking and likely could have passed as a 1st year app. That would not have meant I was skilled at tasks of the trade. But there is a time requirement to take the test or to finish the JATC program.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

jrannis said:


> Sorry that this has been your experience. It seems very isolated to very specific areas. I have never seen this and have worked union for 30 years.


It has been and Big John (and Harry) has spoken about how it is here. Jugging from all that can be found on the web I don't think it is as isolated as you seem to think. Maybe your area is the isolated one?





> But,
> I still do not understand why someone would work for less than the established wages and benefits and do the same work.


Simple, my own standards and pride. 

I do not want to be associated with the group that has acted like immature a-holes and treated my co-workers and I like a POS many times.


I would be embarrassed to pay dues to an origination that does not put a stop to crap like this. 






I do understand each member is their own person the hall can not really control what people do but they seem to encourage this sort of hot head when they should be (IMPO) distancing themselves from this crap. 

To each their own, if you want to work union that is great, just don't get in the way of my getting to and doing my own job.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

jrannis said:


> Sorry that this has been your experience. It seems very isolated to very specific areas. I have never seen this and have worked union for 30 years. But,
> I still do not understand why someone would work for less than the established wages and benefits and do the same work.














BBQ said:


> It has been and Big John (and Harry) has spoken about how it is here. Jugging from all that can be found on the web I don't think it is as isolated as you seem to think. Maybe your area is the isolated one?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I've experienced it too. I see it all the time. The picture I posted earlier is from last summer. In this area union thuggery (can't think of a better term) is part of the union culture. 

Regardless of what Noah the Phony says. :laughing:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

brian john said:


> I understood, but understanding never stopped me.


:laughing:

LMAO, best post ever and it applies to me as well.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

BBQ said:


> :laughing:
> 
> LMAO, best post ever and it applies to me as well.


I think you might be the epitome of that. :whistling2: :thumbup:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

IN Washington in recent years it has been the SEIU and Janitors for justice that have been a pain, the yell and scream at anyone entering a building, block entrances and are a general pain.

I have told this before. My oldest daughter came home from first job in Washington DC and told me how she hated unions. She knows I am union when questioned, it seems the homeless that SEIU hired to picket her building got in her face giving her a hard time. 22 year old girl set he opinion of unions for possible the rest of her life.

All the other unions are painted with the broad brush of SEIU's stupidity.

We need public support not hate.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/149279/approval-labor-unions-holds-near-low.aspx


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

I've experienced it too. I see it all the time. The picture I posted earlier is from last summer. In this area union thuggery 

Regardless of what Noah the Phony says. :laughing:[/QUOTE]

I think it is great to have a place such as Electrician Talk to freely express our selves with out fear of reprisal.Both sides of this issue have shown us what not to express if we have any real desire to bridge the gap between union and or nonunion.EScott I believe in my heart that unions ideals are to help protect ALL working class although the unions do run amok with ego's and skewed views at times (almost like everything else in life, Imagine that) I wish we all could avoid the harsh words in a real search for unity.


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

BBQ said:


> Hmm, the subject was 'the union' not Eric specifically.
> 
> How many times have you showed up at your job to find a dozen open shop guys there insulting you and telling you how you take the food off their kids plates?
> 
> ...


I agree BBQ. But it's all a matter of perspective. How many guys who are non union wouldn't want the benefits, salary, and stability the IBEW offers? How many of you know about the fights that were done to GET all those benefits? Outside of some of the older and larger markets...not much is known/remembered of the "old days" when we were "shaping up" our cities. I make a point of teaching our history to new apprentices. I also make a point that while we are protesting the fact that a building or client is allowing the work to be done non union...blaming the actual non union electrician is pointless. They need to eat, they need to feed their kids, and they have bills as well. The coin is two sided...while a non union electrician asks those questions you just asked...I will ask this...are you working non union by choice, or did it just happen to work out that way? Were you ever "in"...and then decided that union life isn't for you?

Part of being in the "union" is accepting the fact that we have a constant battle for work. It's not always pretty, and it's not always "just"...I have friends who are non union electricians. I don't catch crap for it, they're people too. Part of the issue is the belief that many of us were raised with...WE do the big commercial stuff, and you guys do the little stuff. No disrespect meant. Well those days are over. Non union shops now have the ability to manage some of the larger projects. However...while your benefits come at the grace of your owner, ours are guaranteed by the contract the owner signs when he becomes signatory. Your owner can say tomorrow...know what...I'm not paying you for the day after Thanksgiving...and what can you say? That's not fair...it's his prerogative to pay you for that day. In our world, it's part of the base contract.

When you have a slew of benefits that are dependent on keeping a contractor in business, we're taught that you do whatever it takes to keep that work. Over the years we as a whole put out a number years worth of people who were...shall we say...less than ideal. It happens in any industry. We are now working towards fixing that. One of the things we have been trying to do is re-educate the masses. The way to reclaim our market share isn't by strong arm tactics...it's by producing better electricians. I wish i had back when I was a pup the offerings that we have today! Unfortunately...it's not that easy to get rank and file members to see things from the other persons view.

The only times you see union and non union electricians playing nicely together IS during a Habitat for Humanity project. I've worked on two housing developments right along side non union electricians and because I stuck my hand out, introduced myself and was open and friendly...the 5 other union guys I was with allowed themselves to open up and accept that these guys were there for the same reason we were. I am still friends with two of these guys and one of my crew is now the godfather of one of the non union guys baby boy. 

So is there hope...yes. Is there opportunity to change...yes. Will it come easy...unfortunately...no it won't. But sites like this will allow both sides to be heard and you can be heard more clearly when you loose the attitude and prejudices. If you go to a site to learn, ask questions, trade ideas...then it's for everyone, not just for the guys in one club or another...

Steve from NYC


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

s.kelly said:


> Just FYI, I am in VA near McClary and he is correct as far as this state goes. I finished the JATC program and went and put in paperwork to get my state card, no test required. I am sure that is not true everywhere, but it is here.


*Then I stand corrected. While in the State of VA you are exempt, none of the other locations I mentioned allow a JATC Trained Electrician to get a "pass"*




s.kelly said:


> I also would say that the test really does not prove much. I am really good at test taking and likely could have passed as a 1st year app. That would not have meant I was skilled at tasks of the trade. But there is a time requirement to take the test or to finish the JATC program.


If your A Test is simple enough where you think you could pass it as a First Year Apprentice then that test needs to be seriously evaluated. There is no feasible way a 1st Year Apprentice could pass the A Test in not just our jurisdiction, but I can name a few. Examining Board Officers communicate with each other now a days. While the NJATC cannot force it's curriculum upon a Local...they "strongly recommend" their way of instruction. Our test here in NYC is difficult...I know...I've helped create the tests. We also have the State of NY to deal with...who can come into ANY test and begin an examination. I don't know if they have that everywhere...but we do. Our Craft Certification covers all 5 years of Apprenticeship. While someone who is good at taking tests may have an advantage...without completing the Program, passing the test would be extremely difficult.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

~CS~


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## s.kelly (Mar 20, 2009)

icefalkon said:


> *Then I stand corrected. While in the State of VA you are exempt, none of the other locations I mentioned allow a JATC Trained Electrician to get a "pass"*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not the a test, but the state test. I have not taken it, but VA's state test is code book test, and you can use the book. Something I am very good at. The A test is that national formula which has a practical. I could not have passed that as 1st year. I am not aware of a state that tests on more than code.


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

Ah there you go. 

I agree with you on that. Open book exams are not difficult in my opinion. If you are good at Code those tests are relatively easy. I do know jurisdictions that incorporate more mathematics into their JW Prometric exams. One that I recently took had transformer short circuit calculations. 

How and why that is deemed necessary for a Journeyman Competency Exam is beyond me though. The 80 questions on Code alone is a walk in the park if you're familiar with the Plan, Use, Build concept.

Steve from NYC


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

chicken steve said:


> ~CS~


Is there a chart that also shows the amount of taxes paid? All taxes, not just income tax.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

s.kelly said:


> Just FYI, I am in VA near McClary and he is correct as far as this state goes. I finished the JATC program and went and put in paperwork to get my state card, no test required. I am sure that is not true everywhere, but it is here.
> 
> .


I had to take a test in every county in Virginia I wanted to be licensed in. When I wanted a state license I took a Class "B" test , then later a Class "A" test. I cannot even remember how many counties I took test in 7-10 maybe, this was in the 70's, then early 80's VA started the Class "B" and "A" stuff. Not sure if we still have Class "B" licenses?


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

brian john said:


> I had to take a test in every county in Virginia I wanted to be licensed in. When I wanted a state license I took a Class "B" test , then later a Class "A" test. I cannot even remember how many counties I took test in 7-10 maybe, this was in the 70's, then early 80's VA started the Class "B" and "A" stuff. Not sure if we still have Class "B" licenses?


 
Brian, our "a", "b", & "c " classifications now are only for contractors licenses. They limit the value of the job, you can perform, but have nothing to do with our trade. 

Va's only electrical classifications are "journeyman" and "master"


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

Connecticut is the same. They have two Master Licenses and one Journeyman License. E1, E3, and E5 respectively.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

electricmanscott said:


> Is there a chart that also shows the amount of taxes paid? All taxes, not just income tax.


and this is relevant how?

~CS~


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