# Another electrician without eyebrows.



## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

I was giving this some thought, after noticing that it seems injuries and fatalities are at least seemingly rising.

How much of this do you think is due to both the shortage of qualified workers and the increased push to get things done faster and cheaper. 

Once again the worker is being put at risk, for no reason at all. 

Not saying this is the case with the last couple of situations posted here on ET, but I just have this feeling that this is happening.


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## The_Modifier (Oct 24, 2009)

Switched said:


> I was giving this some thought, after noticing that it seems injuries and fatalities are at least seemingly rising.
> 
> How much of this do you think is due to both the shortage of qualified workers and the increased push to get things done faster and cheaper.
> 
> ...


I think you're right on the money with it. 


I'll send you a return pm in a bit.:biggrin:


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## glen1971 (Oct 10, 2012)

Switched said:


> I was giving this some thought, after noticing that it seems injuries and fatalities are at least seemingly rising.
> 
> How much of this do you think is due to both the shortage of qualified workers and the increased push to get things done faster and cheaper.
> 
> ...





The_Modifier said:


> I think you're right on the money with it.
> 
> 
> I'll send you a return pm in a bit.:biggrin:


Or due to lack of maintenance in the effort of saving the almighty dollar? Or lack of following practices and procedures for not doing the work de-energized? 

We had a crew installing a 480 volt MCC bucket live last week, which goes against most onsite procedures. It's a "newer" and fairly well maintained line up, but there was a policy in place that bucket removal/installation was to be done de-energized. There was a call from the operator onsite that they were going to do the job and it should go off without any issues, but if there was he'd call. IMO, if things went wrong and there were issues, we all would have known about it before his radio call.


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

glen1971 said:


> Or due to lack of maintenance in the effort of saving the almighty dollar? Or lack of following practices and procedures for not doing the work de-energized?
> 
> 
> 
> We had a crew installing a 480 volt MCC bucket live last week, which goes against most onsite procedures. It's a "newer" and fairly well maintained line up, but there was a policy in place that bucket removal/installation was to be done de-energized. There was a call from the operator onsite that they were going to do the job and it should go off without any issues, but if there was he'd call. IMO, if things went wrong and there were issues, we all would have known about it before his radio call.



Depends on the unit and condition. I used to agree when all I ever saw was AB or GE MCCs. But there are other better designs out there such as Square D on SOME of their MCCs.

Some have an actual disconnect built in. This is behind the MCP/breaker. Others (AB, GE, Siemens, probably others) just have flimsy buckets with a single screw that is supposed to hold it on the bus or a couple cam locks. These are notorious for the bucket getting misaligned a little and the stabs somehow bending or folding over enough that it arcs during reinstallation. Then typically the arc is pushed to the bottom of the bus and blows off the door at the bottom and fire shoots out at your feet. Same thing can happen on draw out breakers with long stab arms but others are so short I’ve never heard of it. The worst ones are the GE Limitamps with the goofy vertical/pivoting contactors that have all kinds of safety issues.

So on the disconnect style ones first you trip the MCP. Then there is a small handle that retracts the bucket stabs off the bus. It’s like a manual draw out mechanism...don’t expect a spring loaded action but the breaker side is unloaded anyway. The second handle unlocks the bucket so you can remove it. Installation is the reverse. On the ones I’ve seen they even have the split terminal blocks so the field wiring stays in place. Very nice. I thought this was only on more expensive newer arc flash resistant designs but I’ve seen it on 20+ year old MCCs long before 70E was a “thing”.

But if the bucket just shot fire out of it and has that smell and burn marks, it really doesn’t matter how good or bad the construction is. Power down period. Don’t guess. If you really feel justified doing it go full arc flash suit and have at it. Make the safety or operations manager sign the energized work permit. Make them write the justification and make sure to give them this and the section explaining when energized work is justified. It almost never is. OSHA is intending that energized work is done either because it’s physically impossible or due to greater hazards. Loss of production is not a valid reason. For example testing for voltage as part of LOTO or grounding power lines are both energized work but you can’t do fe-energized work until you perform these energized work steps.

http://www.osha.gov/laws-regs/standardinterpretations/2006-12-19

When they become the ones OSHA hunts down to put in jail, they suddenly get religion. Safety and operations don’t care if the only ones that get injured or go to jail is maintenance people.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

In addition to the above, I also wonder if because of safety regulations prohibiting hot work, we, as a group, are losing the basic ability to safely work hot. 

Just like anything else, if you're not in practice, the chances of something going wrong are greatly increased.


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## The_Modifier (Oct 24, 2009)

glen1971 said:


> There was a call from the operator onsite that they were going to do the job and it should go off without any issues, but if there was he'd call. IMO, if things went wrong and there were issues, we all would have known about it before his radio call.


This is exactly why bean counters need to stay out of running jobs.:vs_mad:


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