# Hydronic Baseboard heat



## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

A client wants to install hydronic baseboard heat for an open room 1200 sq’ commercial. 

I stressed a wall split system unit , isn’t this a little ridiculous?

I’m going to need 7-9 baseboards with multiple tstats in the same area ?! 

Based on calculation 10,000-12,000 watts needed. 

What’s your thought on this 


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## Takideezy (Mar 19, 2017)

Roughly 48 linerar feet of baseboard heat, 4 stats and (4) 20A 2 pole breakers all depending on how it lays out. The number of exterior walls, quality of insulation, etc, influence the calculation. I use something between 9.8 and 12 watts per square foot of room. You always end up rounding to the nearest foot and/or adjusting based on available wall space. Seems like you are on track.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

I’m just wondering how inefficient this is. I normally wouldn’t think of baseboard heat for this size space 


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## glen1971 (Oct 10, 2012)

You could split it with 2-3 stats and build a contactor panel to control them. But yes, I agree it is inefficient.. Does it have an 8' ceiling? T-bar?


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

I don't see it working out for them depending on how much money they make, how cold it gets, and how well the building and the ceiling is insulated. But still for what it's going to cost them to put in, I don't think it's a bad buy. Worst case, when they see their electric bills, they'll have this for backup heat. It's low cost and zero maintenance. 

When they get their electric bill for January they'll probably be ordering a mini split, and the electric will be good to have when the mini split is down for maintenance, or in extreme cold when the temperatures are too low for the mini split to run efficiently.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

I learned something from Marc Shunk many years ago: Electric heat actually is efficient; because every watt is turned into heat, making electric heat 100% efficient, but usually the worst economic choice.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

TOOL_5150 said:


> I learned something from Marc Shunk many years ago: Electric heat actually is efficient; because every watt is turned into heat, making electric heat 100% efficient, but usually the worst economic choice.


Yes really efficient isn't the right word, it's just "expensive" a BTU of electric is usually a lot more expensive than a BTU from oil, gas, coal, kerosene, or wood. 

When you factor in the low initial cost and the zero maintenance part, it's not as expensive as it looked at first. If the tenant is paying and they aren't going to be there for long it might be the smart buy. 

And you know they'll all have electric space heaters under their desk anyway so you might as well roll with it.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Do a heat loss calc. The heater manufacturer probably has a calculator on their site.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

He has radiator heat now that is ran from common panel. 

I think the owners though Is if he removes the radiators and installs electric now it’s the tenants problem..

I sent over my HVAC guy to plan for a split but the owner came back to me wanting baseboard?! 

8 baseboards at $300 ea , install , Tstats, and a needed sub panel for this install is going to have a hefty price tag.. 

Sure it’s a great job and money maker but I don’t want to steer him the wrong way... I work lots of commercial properties for this guy and want to give him the proper solution...but he won’t listen 


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

WronGun said:


> He has radiator heat now that is ran from common panel.
> 
> I think the owners though Is if he removes the radiators and installs electric now it’s the tenants problem..
> 
> ...


Hydronic is a gimmick. The theory is that it evens out the temperature swings but an electronic thermostat samples so often that swings aren't a concern anyway.

Still, it's the customer's money so who are you to tell him how to spend it?


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

You guys do realize that the term 'hydronic' refers to circulating WATER?

Electric baseboard heat is not 'hydronic' heating by any far stretch.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

I'll also add that 1200 sq ft of commercial space could require up to 7 tons of a/c depending on several factors.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

MechanicalDVR said:


> You guys do realize that the term 'hydronic' refers to circulating WATER?
> 
> 
> 
> Electric baseboard heat is not 'hydronic' heating by any far stretch.




Correct , 

The hydronic baseboard seems to hold the heat a little longer.... that’s all I’ve been installing, not sure if it’s truly worth the extra cost.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

WronGun said:


> Correct ,
> 
> The hydronic baseboard seems to hold the heat a little longer.... that’s all I’ve been installing, not sure if it’s truly worth the extra cost.
> 
> ...


Anything that holds residual heat is a help.

What brand/model are you installing?


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## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

MechanicalDVR said:


> You guys do realize that the term 'hydronic' refers to circulating WATER?
> 
> Electric baseboard heat is not 'hydronic' heating by any far stretch.


That's what I thought this post was going to be about. I thought it was going to be about zone controls and pumps. 

Then I thought maybe Wrongun was branching into plumbing.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

cabletie said:


> That's what I thought this post was going to be about. I thought it was going to be about zone controls and pumps.
> 
> Then I thought maybe *Wrongun was branching into plumbing*.


Oh no he can't become a turd herder.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

If you want to make them happy sell them cove heat instead.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

TOOL_5150 said:


> I learned something from Marc Shunk many years ago: Electric heat actually is efficient; because every watt is turned into heat, making electric heat 100% efficient, but usually the worst economic choice.


Didn't he used to be a Mod here? Maybe I could have his spot.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

sbrn33 said:


> Didn't he used to be a Mod here? Maybe I could have his spot.


Maybe if mods are MIA for a year or more they should be replaced. :whistling2:


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

Cadet soft heat is what I’ve been using 


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

I thought this was about forced hot water baseboard as well. But you're talking about oil filled electric baseboards. I got it now.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

MechanicalDVR said:


> You guys do realize that the term 'hydronic' refers to circulating WATER?
> 
> Electric baseboard heat is not 'hydronic' heating by any far stretch.


I think (pretty sure) Cadet has what they call _Hydronic base 
board heaters_ that are filled with oil. 
I thought this was what Wrong Gun is talking about.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

Yes it’s self contained 

Electric Hydronic baseboard 

Cadet Soft Heat 


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

lighterup said:


> I think (pretty sure) Cadet has what they call _Hydronic base
> board heaters_ that are filled with oil.
> I thought this was what Wrong Gun is talking about.


Oil isn't hydronic.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

Seems silly to have 3-4 thermostats in the same area, may have to do this another way 


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Oil isn't hydronic.


well , the box stores are selling "oil filled" heaters and
calling them _Hydronic_

I know this was your field , so don't shoot
the messenger:thumbsup:


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

From an unscientific standpoint, if you have ever used the hydronic space heaters that hold a little oil or water - those do seem to make more comfortable heat than most others. 

Some info 

https://www.thespruce.com/convection-vs-hydronic-electric-baseboard-heaters-1821911


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

WronGun said:


> Seems silly to have 3-4 thermostats in the same area, may have to do this another way


I'd put the thermostats in the corners, give them what they want ...


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

WronGun said:


> Yes it’s self contained
> 
> Electric Hydronic baseboard
> 
> ...




Cadet 

Specs

you might want to consider _one_ stat, and a _few_ contactors WronGun


~CS~


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

lighterup said:


> well , the box stores are selling "oil filled" heaters and
> calling them _Hydronic_
> 
> I know this was your field , so don't shoot
> the messenger:thumbsup:


Never, just saying that hydronic means circulated (pumped) water.

Just the fact that there is water in a container doesn't make it.

Sand or anything else with density could be just as good a medium to heat.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

For a commercial space this is a ridiculous idea. I don't know where you live or what type of space this is but if it is a large open area then the heat will never get to the middle of the room. Tell the owner to talk to a heating guy. Sounds like he wants cheap not efficient


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Dennis Alwon said:


> For a commercial space this is a ridiculous idea. I don't know where you live or what type of space this is but if it is a large open area then the heat will never get to the middle of the room. Tell the owner to talk to a heating guy. Sounds like he wants cheap not efficient


The heat really doesn't need to get to the middle of the room per se.

Hot goes to cold, it will migrate.

The walls are the source of heat loss for the most part and the baseboard heaters will heat the space, just not with the fastest effect.

If it were forced hot air the outlets would generally be along the walls as well, same for real hydronic heat.

If it was a heat/ac system then yes the outlets maybe closer to the center of the space for good ac air circulation.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

sbrn33 said:


> Didn't he used to be a Mod here? Maybe I could have his spot.


Yes, and also a very valuable asset to this forum. I learned a ton of stuff from him, along with many others on this forum.:notworthy:


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

WronGun said:


> A client wants to install hydronic baseboard heat for an open room 1200 sq’ commercial.
> 
> I stressed a wall split system unit , isn’t this a little ridiculous?
> 
> ...



I've installed Cadet hydronic baseboard heat in a 6500 Sq Ft house. Basically, you can put as many heaters on 1 thermostat as it can handle, and if you need more, use a contactor. They do work alright, but its nothing like central forced heat.


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## Helmut (May 7, 2014)

sbrn33 said:


> Didn't he used to be a Mod here? Maybe I could have his spot.


Marc was more than a Mod here. Marc single handedly built this forum, and many others for Nathan back in the day. He built them up, with his vast knowledge of everything under the sun, and had a way of explaining things that was second to none. As far as I could tell, he loved helping people out.

Rumors swirled about Nathan selling the place, and Marc getting screwed, to Marc's health taking a turn many moons ago, as the reason for his departure.

Without doubt, he was the smartest, nicest, most diverse person, that I never had the pleasure of meeting in person.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

TOOL_5150 said:


> I've installed Cadet hydronic baseboard heat in a 6500 Sq Ft house. Basically, you can put as many heaters on 1 thermostat as it can handle, and if you need more, use a contactor. They do work alright, but its nothing like central forced heat.


Very curious, do you know why they went that way? I could see a hard core greenie / treehugger doing it so they could say they use no fossil fuels - they buy their electric generation from one of these all-renewable companies. 

I also think under certain circumstances electric heat really isn't that expensive despite the high cost per BTU. 

In cold climates the initial cost of gas service, a furnace and possibly baseboard hot water radiators, annual maintenance, and replacing the furnace every 20 years shift the value towards electric. 

With electric you usually have a thermostat in every room, with baseboard hot water or forced hot air nobody does that or it would really drive up the initial cost and maintenance. Especially with a big house that has a lot of rooms that don't see much use, that could be a significant savings. 

Hydronic electric or baseboard radiators are generally more comfortable heat than forced hot air.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

I like heat. Don't really care where it comes from. It could be a gas furnace, electric strips, baseboards, a campfire, a woman... doesn't matter to me, as long as the space I'm in like 65-75 dungarees fair-n-square, I'm good.

Points until RePhase checks out: 121


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

splatz said:


> Very curious, do you know why they went that way? I could see a hard core greenie / treehugger doing it so they could say they use no fossil fuels - they buy their electric generation from one of these all-renewable companies.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I doubt he is going to sign off on it .... the estimation was just above 7K for hydronic and just under 5k for standard baseboard. 

The smaller adjacent unit was 2k

Total of 10k in baseboard heat !

Nothing I can do I told him what I thought was best, even sent my HVAC guy to the building to look into It. 


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Helmut said:


> Marc was more than a Mod here. Marc single handedly built this forum, and many others for Nathan back in the day. He built them up, with his vast knowledge of everything under the sun, and had a way of explaining things that was second to none. As far as I could tell, he loved helping people out.
> 
> Rumors swirled about Nathan selling the place, and Marc getting screwed, to Marc's health taking a turn many moons ago, as the reason for his departure.
> 
> Without doubt, he was the smartest, nicest, most diverse person, that I never had the pleasure of meeting in person.


He's only 5' 3".


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## Helmut (May 7, 2014)

MTW said:


> He's only 5' 3".


You got him by 2".


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