# Panel upgrade advice.



## Sparkee (Sep 22, 2009)

I'm upgrading a old 50 amp C.B. to a 200 amp semi-flush. Now usually I mount the panel next to the old panel (if possible) and when I'm finished I swap the power companies wires over to my new feeders. The reason I have yet to go head and put it in the same spot is I'm a little scared of cutting the power and having it hanging in the yard while I'm working. What do most of you guys do? Can I grab the guide wire (neutral) without getting shocked? When I swap my wires I'm real careful. I wear gloves put a thick blanket on the roof and use plenty of electrical tape etc.


----------



## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Sparkee said:


> I'm upgrading a old 50 amp C.B. to a 200 amp semi-flush. Now usually I mount the panel next to the old panel (if possible) and when I'm finished I swap the power companies wires over to my new feeders. The reason I have yet to go head and put it in the same spot is I'm a little scared of cutting the power and having it hanging in the yard while I'm working. What do most of you guys do? Can I grab the guide wire (neutral) without getting shocked? When I swap my wires I'm real careful. I wear gloves put a thick blanket on the roof and use plenty of electrical tape etc.


 

I cut them loose all the time. I do wear the gloves the power company uses with the rubber liners. I just tape the poco side up and let them hook it back up if possible. I hate waiting for them to cut it loose so I do it myself 99% of the time. That said call a licensed electrician. No real electrician would ask that about the neutral! You don't want to kill yourself.:no:


----------



## Sparkee (Sep 22, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> I cut them loose all the time. I do wear the gloves the power company uses with the rubber liners. I just tape the poco side up and let them hook it back up if possible. I hate waiting for them to cut it loose so I do it myself 99% of the time. That said call a licensed electrician. No real electrician would ask that about the neutral! You don;t want to kill yourself.:no:


I am licensed and I have been shocked by a neutral. Here in California you have to hook up the panel temporarily so the city inspector can see everything working then once it's signed off the power company does the permanent hook up.


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Sparkee said:


> I'm upgrading a old 50 amp C.B. to a 200 amp semi-flush. Now usually I mount the panel next to the old panel (if possible) and when I'm finished I swap the power companies wires over to my new feeders. The reason I have yet to go head and put it in the same spot is I'm a little scared of cutting the power and having it hanging in the yard while I'm working. What do most of you guys do? *Can I grab the* *guide wire (neutral) without getting shocked?* When I swap my wires I'm real careful. I wear gloves put a thick blanket on the roof and use plenty of electrical tape etc.


This post has red flags all over it.. stay away from working with the service wires


----------



## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Sparkee said:


> I am licensed and I have been shocked by a neutral. Here in California you have to hook up the panel temporarily so the city inspector can see everything working then once it's signed off the power company does the permanent hook up.


 

Here you cant hook up the power until the inspector checks out what you did. So your saying the inspector has to have the service hot to check it?
What do they do on new construction? Feed it from the saw service? I always treat the neutral as a current carring conductor. Sorry if I was out of line but the neutral question seemed like a question someone who isn't licensed would ask. Then again I get confused all the time and probably sound like I don't know what I;m talking about at times also.


----------



## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

I don't see how it would carry current with both hots cut.Under what circumstance did you get shocked by the neutral?


----------



## Sparkee (Sep 22, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> Here you cant hook up the power until the inspector checks out what you did. So your saying the inspector has to have the service hot to check it?
> What do they do on new construction? Feed it from the saw service? I always treat the neutral as a current carring conductor. Sorry if I was out of line but the neutral question seemed like a question someone who isn't licensed would ask. Then again I get confused all the time and probably sound like I don't know what I;m talking about at times also.


That's a good question since I have not done any new resi work only remodels so I don't know. 

The worst jolt I ever got was off a neutral wire on a 277 volt lighting circuit. I know my question might seem dumb but I started the resi stuff on the side while I worked the swing shift at my Industrial maintenance job. I pull permits so everything is inspected and is done according to the NEC but I never had a more experienced guy showing things like a panel change out.


----------



## LAElectrician (Dec 8, 2009)

Sparkee said:


> Can I grab the guide wire (neutral) without getting shocked? When I swap my wires I'm real careful. I wear gloves put a thick blanket on the roof and use plenty of electrical tape etc.


For safety reasons (not to mention dropped neutral catastrophies), never connect or disconnect any neutral wire without first eliminating all power sources to the circuit. As far as I know, this rule applies to every kind of phase and voltage situation.

If you've been shocked with a neutral, one way or another you probably weren't following that rule. This rule would apply to the single phase, three wire feeders to a house. Disconnect the two hot wires first, then the neutral. Reconnect the neutral first, then the two hot wires.


----------



## I_get_shocked (Apr 6, 2009)

neutral wacks are the worst. Tick testers lie.


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

I_get_shocked said:


> neutral wacks are the worst. Tick testers lie.


I agree, that is why I call them "gadgets"


----------



## kwired (Dec 20, 2009)

A disconnected neutral with the load connected to the ungrounded conductors will get you every time. It essentially is no longer a neutral when it is disconnected.


----------



## JohnR (Apr 12, 2010)

I would recommend that those unfamiliar with doing a cut/reconnect get someone else to do the job . It isn't about you , it is about liability and keeping your life. 
If you don't know that grabbing a Neut. can KILL you, you still have something else to learn. Make sure you live to learn it.:smartass:

Those who have done them know that once you cut the wires, they can spin on you and slap you on the arm/face. 


Due to many not heeding advice and being very careful , getting hurt etc.. The POCO here has limited ANY cut/taps to their own employees.

You need to get someone else to help you SParkee


----------



## Old man (Mar 24, 2010)

B4 you cut any riser, pull the meter out.


----------



## kwired (Dec 20, 2009)

> B4 you cut any riser, pull the meter out.


Add to that before cutting any live conductor remove the load from it and more important may be having no load when reconnecting.


----------



## Sparkee (Sep 22, 2009)

Thanks everybody for the advice. I always pull the meter before switching the wires so there's no load and I cut and tape up the hots first so I don't become the load. I'm going to put the new panel next to the old one. I'll run the power off a 50 amp breaker when the inspector needs to see it work and I'll have POCO switch the utility wires. I've done it this way before but swapped out the utility wires and left the guide wire tied to the old riser so the wires would not go flying.


----------



## Voltech (Nov 30, 2009)

kwired said:


> Add to that before cutting any live conductor remove the load from it and more important may be having no load when reconnecting.


The meter is not a disconnect, its a meter, and removing it will not always remove the load.


----------



## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Voltech said:


> The meter is not a disconnect, its a meter, and removing it will not always remove the load.


 
If its not CT'ed I believe it would. No power could flow to the load side. Am I missing something?


----------



## Voltech (Nov 30, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> If its not CT'ed I believe it would. No power could flow to the load side. Am I missing something?


Not all meter sockets work like that, some have a bypass. You might not see it often with a residential service. 

Besides, the meter is not intended to be a means of disconnect, if it was, it would be called a disconnect not a meter.


----------



## Electric Al (Mar 13, 2010)

To Voltech: you are correct... Beware of meter sockets that close when you pull the meter. Like I have posted before, there are some still out there.


----------



## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Voltech said:


> Not all meter sockets work like that, some have a bypass. You might not see it often with a residential service.
> 
> Besides, the meter is not intended to be a means of disconnect, if it was, it would be called a disconnect not a meter.


 
I install bypass meters here all the time. I was talking about a standard meter. The bypass meters I see here have to be manually closed. I have heard of some being spring loaded or something but I've never seen one in my area. I was wondering how what you were saying could be true...now I know


----------



## kwired (Dec 20, 2009)

Voltech said:


> The meter is not a disconnect, its a meter, and removing it will not always remove the load.


perhaps you were replying to this?


> B4 you cut any riser, pull the meter out


I did not mention removing a meter I stated that you should remove the load. I do recommend turning off main(s) before removing a meter that does interrupt the load when removed.



> Add to that before cutting any live conductor remove the load from it and more important may be having no load when reconnecting.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

kwired said:


> ..............I did not mention removing a meter I stated that you should remove the load. I do recommend turning off main(s) before removing a meter that does interrupt the load when removed.


Best method I've found:

Go to main panel, and turn off each branch circuit individually. Then turn off the main. _Then_ pull the meter. To restore service, reverse these steps.


----------



## woodchuck2 (Sep 18, 2009)

X2 on what 480 stated. That is the best method of shedding the load before a dis-connect and for a re-connect. Anyone messing with the main line with a load on it is asking for trouble, even the POCO requires all loads off. I myself have dis-connected the main line before due to the POCO's delay in service. In doing so all loads were off/meter removed, the line phases were cut first and the neutral was cut last. I tested the meter socket with a meter before doing any work to verify power was off.


----------

