# Recessed light under joist



## WPNortheast (Jun 4, 2017)

Has anyone actually fit one of these wafer thin recessed lights under a joist? I have customer requesting this and I'm iffy on the whole thing


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

WPNortheast said:


> Has anyone actually fit one of these wafer thin recessed lights under a joist? I have customer requesting this and I'm iffy on the whole thing


The brand I use is still thicker than the drywall. So, no.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Chris1971 said:


> WPNortheast said:
> 
> 
> > Has anyone actually fit one of these wafer thin recessed lights under a joist? I have customer requesting this and I'm iffy on the whole thing
> ...


Excellent. Brilliant. Bravo.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Yes, many times. I just drill with the holesaw wherever I want the light to go, disregarding joists.

One issue is with the smaller ones like the 4" or 3". If you drill directly on the joist then you can't fit the driver up into the ceiling. But there is an easy workaround for that- just run low voltage wire to that light and put the driver into the ceiling thru another hole that it fit into.


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

HackWork said:


> Yes, many times. I just drill with the holesaw wherever I want the light to go, disregarding joists.
> 
> One issue is with the smaller ones like the 4" or 3". If you drill directly on the joist then you can't fit the driver up into the ceiling. But there is an easy workaround for that- just run low voltage wire to that light and put the driver into the ceiling thru another hole that it fit into.


Mr. Hackwork,

What brand do you use?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Lithonia from Amazon.


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

HackWork said:


> Lithonia from Amazon.


Thanks Mr. Hackwork.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Chris1971 said:


> Thanks Mr. Hackwork.


You make a great point.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

What size/type joist are we talking about and how deep are we drilling these holes?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

hardworkingstiff said:


> What size/type joist are we talking about and how deep are we drilling these holes?


Have you seen the new LED wafer/pancake lights? That is what we are talking about.

The joist size doesn't matter and the hole is only thru the drywall.


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## Barjack (Mar 28, 2010)

These are from a Lotus Lights install I did about a year ago. We find they work rather well when we encounter a joist situation like this. We still use regular cans and LED trims otherwise.


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## trentonmakes (Mar 21, 2017)

What about situation where you install multiple lights in a room?
Do you use all wafer lights?

How do you or can you match trims from other lights?

Texting and Driving


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

trentonmakes said:


> What about situation where you install multiple lights in a room?
> Do you use all wafer lights?
> 
> How do you or can you match trims from other lights?
> ...


I'm on a new build rough-in right now and there are (5)
scenarios where I will be using these wafer lights. The 
reason is that the framing (ceiling joists ) are preventing 
me from installing recess cans symmetrically over the
counter spaces ..

* 48" Bathroom vanity (need 2)
* Kitchen sink area where lower ceiling (like a soffet) comes 
out about 28" before it transitions to a a very high sloped
ceiling (need 2)
* Master clothes closet (need 2)
* Foyer closet (need 2)
* Bedroom 2 closet (need 1)

Because of the small J boxes on these Lithonia's , I am running
one switch leg to each fixture (from their corresponding switch 
boxes).


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

trentonmakes said:


> What about situation where you install multiple lights in a room?
> Do you use all wafer lights?
> 
> How do you or can you match trims from other lights?
> ...


I pretty much only install the wafer lights now. They are so much easier. 

I never really worried about matching them to lights in another room.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

lighterup said:


> I'm on a new build rough-in right now and there are (5)
> scenarios where I will be using these wafer lights. The
> reason is that the framing (ceiling joists ) are preventing
> me from installing recess cans symmetrically over the
> ...


Yup, the junction boxes are damn small. 

In most situations I install them (old work with no access from above) running a separate feed to each would be nearly impossible. So I have to have 2 cables going into each. If you cut the wires short and fold them nice and neat it's not too bad.


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## trentonmakes (Mar 21, 2017)

HackWork said:


> I pretty much only install the wafer lights now. They are so much easier.
> 
> I never really worried about matching them to lights in another room.


I meant in the same room?

I guess it kinda answered my ?

There times where i hit the joist or piping or whatever and i just adjust the layout an inch or two

Texting and Driving


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

trentonmakes said:


> I meant in the same room?


 I don't do that often. I guess I could either change out the old ones or match the new ones. 



> There times where i hit the joist or piping or whatever and i just adjust the layout an inch or two


Why do that? That takes a lot of time to probe for joists and then change the whole layout. A lot of times when you have 3 rows and have to change one then you also have to change the opposite one.

Just layout and drill. If you hit a joist, who cares. In and out with lots of money in your pocket, that's the key to this game.


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## trentonmakes (Mar 21, 2017)

HackWork said:


> I don't do that often. I guess I could either change out the old ones or match the new ones.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Because we use the cans with trims...commercial electric from home cheapo

I dont run the circus, i just do what im told. Lol

On my own i like the idea of wafers but curious about matching trims or just using all wafers

Texting and Driving


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

trentonmakes said:


> Because we use the cans with trims...commercial electric from home cheapo


 That's silly. 



> On my own i like the idea of wafers but curious about matching trims or just using all wafers


This just doesn't come up that often. When it does, you can do it either way. Sell them on nice, new clean LED lights for the whole room.


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## active1 (Dec 29, 2009)

The old school way was to adjust the layout.
Sometimes an upsell of an additional can.
Can't get 1 centered then install 2.

You really need to know what you can get away with.
Some situations it's very important to line up a row or have an equal distance off a near by object.
Other times with higher ceilings, not physically being able to stand back and view a row, or only have one to two cans.

Don't get me wrong, like the idea of these pancake lights.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

HackWork said:


> Have you seen the new LED wafer/pancake lights? That is what we are talking about.


No, I haven't done residential work since the 70's and really don't have any exposure to it other than reading this site.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

active1 said:


> The old school way was to adjust the layout.
> Sometimes an upsell of an additional can.
> Can't get 1 centered then install 2.
> 
> ...


I gave up all that crap. No more issues.

Just lay it out and drill. Done.

With 8' ceilings I could drill from the ground. I just keep a 5 gallon garbage bucket next to me to drop the plug and dust into, then walk to the next hole. 

It's night and day difference between the old recessed light installation.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

hardworkingstiff said:


> No, I haven't done residential work since the 70's and really don't have any exposure to it other than reading this site.


 I figured you haven't seen it yet. Most of the talk about them was when you weren't around.

Just drill a hole with your holesaw and pop this in. It's 1/2" thick so it doesn't go past the drywall, so you can put it right underneath a joist.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

HackWork said:


> Yup, the junction boxes are damn small.
> 
> In most situations I install them (old work with no access from above) running a separate feed to each would be nearly impossible. So I have to have 2 cables going into each. If you cut the wires short and fold them nice and neat it's not too bad.


Do you happen to know if the lutron LED / CFL/ Incandescent 
dimmer is okay with these wafer lights or do you use an
electronic dimmer?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

lighterup said:


> Do you happen to know if the lutron LED / CFL/ Incandescent
> dimmer is okay with these wafer lights or do you use an
> electronic dimmer?


I've used a few different dimmers and never had an issue. All Lutron. Diva, Skylark, and the basic toggle switch with the little tiny slider next to it, not sure the name.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

HackWork said:


> I figured you haven't seen it yet. Most of the talk about them was when you weren't around.
> 
> Just drill a hole with your holesaw and pop this in. It's 1/2" thick so it doesn't go past the drywall, so you can put it right underneath a joist.
> 
> ...


Does that JB get mounted (secured) or is it allowed to float on top of the sheetrock?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

hardworkingstiff said:


> Does that JB get mounted (secured) or is it allowed to float on top of the sheetrock?


Good question. We just shove it in. Inspectors say that it needs to be mounted, but who gets inspections on recessed light installations :whistling2:

The Lithonias have a keyhole type hole so you can reach in with a long bit and put a screw into the joist and then hang the box on it. But I never cared to try.










In the end, what difference does it really make? It's just code nazi's being silly.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

While I like the old school look of regular led trims better, these make life so much easier. I goofed on layout and ended up under a joist three boards thick. Drilled a hole for the clip on that side and the other had room. Worked fine, could use the hole. It was an Azek soffit, so the carpenter wasn't going to be too happy to replace that. Was all good till the insulators failed to mention spray foam and glued them all into place with a few popping out.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

hardworkingstiff said:


> Does that JB get mounted (secured) or is it allowed to float on top of the sheetrock?


It extends off the fixture in a similar manner as an old work can.
IDK how the inspector will check that???


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

HackWork said:


> In the end, what difference does it really make? It's just code nazi's being silly.


I agree, but it's good to know what is complaint and what is not.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

lighterup said:


> It extends off the fixture in a similar manner as an old work can.
> IDK how the inspector will check that???


I'm not sure if we are talking about different things, but I have not seen a wafer/pancake/Lotus style LED in which the driver was solidly attached.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

HackWork said:


> I'm not sure if we are talking about different things, but I have not seen a wafer/pancake/Lotus style LED in which the driver was solidly attached.


I'm talking about the whip. It's like a greenfield whip
and I don't have one here with me now , but I just
do not recall any exterior way (screw holes on the outside
of the J box) to mount it.

Anyhow , I just set it up there. It's a steel box. I'm
not worried about it starting a fire or anything.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Normal recessed can junction boxes are mounted solidly to the light, so that appeases code. The pancake style are just attached with a cord, so it's not technically code compliant unless you hook it on a screw like my image above displays.

But as far as actual practice, I do the same as you, just throw it up there. There is no difference whether it's mounted to something or laying on the ceiling.

As far as the dimmer compatibility, check out Lithonia's website. Search for WF6 or WF4 and it will take you to the product page and there you will see the specifications that show the model numbers of the Lutron dimmers that are definitely compatible. I'm sure most will work, but those listed are recommended.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

HackWork said:


> Normal recessed can junction boxes are mounted solidly to the light, so that appeases code. The pancake style are just attached with a cord, so it's not technically code compliant unless you hook it on a screw like my image above displays.
> 
> But as far as actual practice, I do the same as you, just throw it up there. There is no difference whether it's mounted to something or laying on the ceiling.
> 
> As far as the dimmer compatibility, check out Lithonia's website. Search for WF6 or WF4 and it will take you to the product page and there you will see the specifications that show the model numbers of the Lutron dimmers that are definitely compatible. I'm sure most will work, but those listed are recommended.


That's right...it is a cord , but very low voltage . I had pictured greenfield.
That isn't right.

You know I fell 12' out of ceiling right? Landed on my side and took
a major hit on the side of my head. My wife thinks I haven't been
right since.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> Good question. We just shove it in. Inspectors say that it needs to be mounted, but who gets inspections on recessed light installations :whistling2:


I'm sure you install AFCI's when you add them to an existing circuit, right? :whistling2:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

lighterup said:


> That's right...it is a cord , but very low voltage . I had pictured greenfield.
> That isn't right.
> 
> You know I fell 12' out of ceiling right? Landed on my side and took
> ...


Yeah, it's low voltage. You can splice in any cable that you want if you'd prefer to locate all the drivers remotely. If there is an attic and I am installing 8 lights, I will often mount all 8 drivers to a board and wire them up in the shop. Then run low voltage cable from each light to the driver location.

12' is high, when was this??


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

HackWork said:


> Yeah, it's low voltage. You can splice in any cable that you want if you'd prefer to locate all the drivers remotely. If there is an attic and I am installing 8 lights, I will often mount all 8 drivers to a board and wire them up in the shop. Then run low voltage cable from each light to the driver location.
> 
> 12' is high, when was this??


That's a good idea. I'm avoiding attics as much as I can (unless I 
absolutely have to up).

My accident was last year September 26 or 27 , 2016. That's where
I shattered my heal , broke ankle , Fibula. It has been one heck of
a long recovery.


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## trentonmakes (Mar 21, 2017)

Is it rated for insulation and wet locations?

Texting and Driving


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

trentonmakes said:


> Is it rated for insulation and wet locations?
> 
> Texting and Driving


I'm pretty sure it said IC rated on the box , but maybe Hackworks 
knows about the wet location.

I would lean to "no" on the wet location cause J box don't look
seal tight.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

CONSTRUCTION — Ideal for shallow ceiling plenum since a pot light housing is NOT required. *IC rated driver and fixture - approved for direct contact with insulation*.

LISTINGS — CSA certified to US and Canadian safety standards. ENERGY STAR® certified product. *Wet location. Air Tight* certified in accordance with ASTM E283-2004.

These LED Wafer downlights are intended for closets, attics, hallways, *bathrooms, kitchens, basements, soffits, entry ways, porches*, garages, stairwells, corridors, nursing/retirement homes, condos, elevators, apartments, and any other small areas.


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## trentonmakes (Mar 21, 2017)

HackWork said:


> CONSTRUCTION — Ideal for shallow ceiling plenum since a pot light housing is NOT required. *IC rated driver and fixture - approved for direct contact with insulation*.
> 
> LISTINGS — CSA certi ed to US and Canadian safety standards. ENERGY STAR certified product. *Wet location. Air Tight* certified in accordance with ASTM E283-2004.
> 
> These LED Wafer downlights are intended for closets, attics, hallways, *bathrooms, kitchens, basements, soffits, entry ways, porches*, garages, stairwells, corridors, nursing/retirement homes, condos, elevators, apartments, and any other small areas.




Texting and Driving


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

With them installed properly, the junction box would be inside the wall/ceiling. Only the face of the light would be exposed and that is ok for a wet location. They work great in outside soffits.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

I can't wait to use these.


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## Dark Knight (Jan 6, 2016)

In new construction I still use recessed cans and trims but for retro fit applications they are an absolute dream. 
I use Lutron dimmers with them, they work great. But then the Lutron dimmers work the best with just about everything.


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## Dark Knight (Jan 6, 2016)

HackWork said:


> Yes, many times. I just drill with the holesaw wherever I want the light to go, disregarding joists.
> 
> One issue is with the smaller ones like the 4" or 3". If you drill directly on the joist then you can't fit the driver up into the ceiling. But there is an easy workaround for that- just run low voltage wire to that light and put the driver into the ceiling thru another hole that it fit into.


That's brilliant, I never thought of that. You just cut the ends off the factory wires and marrette to the LV wire?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Dark Knight said:


> That's brilliant, I never thought of that. You just cut the ends off the factory wires and marrette to the LV wire?


For small wires like that, I hate using wirenuts. Wago Levernuts work really well here.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

MTW said:


> I'm sure you install AFCI's when you add them to an existing circuit, right? :whistling2:


...and pull a permit with inspection from the AHJ


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Pulling a permit and getting an inspection requires 2 inspections. They have to see the wiring and grounding, so you need to stop halfway thru and have them come in to inspect it. Many times they will pass it at the rough inspection and not come back for the final since there isn't much to see, they will just tell you to pop the lights in and be done.

I'm not willing to let my customer's home sit with big holes in the ceiling and wiring/junction boxes hanging out for a week or longer. I am also not going to go thru the process of obtaining a permit, since that in itself takes way too much time. And having to charge the customer for 2 trips to do a light installation is a waste of their money too.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

HackWork said:


> Pulling a permit and getting an inspection requires 2 inspections. They have to see the wiring and grounding, so you need to stop halfway thru and have them come in to inspect it. Many times they will pass it at the rough inspection and not come back for the final since there isn't much to see, they will just tell you to pop the lights in and be done.
> 
> I'm not willing to let my customer's home sit with big holes in the ceiling and wiring/junction boxes hanging out for a week or longer. I am also not going to go thru the process of obtaining a permit, since that in itself takes way too much time. And having to charge the customer for 2 trips to do a light installation is a waste of their money too.


I was joking cause MTW hates that stuff


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

lighterup said:


> I was joking cause MTW hates that stuff


I was just ranting because I hate pulling permits.


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## btharmy2 (Mar 11, 2017)

WPNortheast said:


> Has anyone actually fit one of these wafer thin recessed lights under a joist? I have customer requesting this and I'm iffy on the whole thing


Yes, multiple times. I use the Lithonia wafer thin lights. They are great.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I've never used #12, luckily. That must be tough to shape two into the JB.


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## trentonmakes (Mar 21, 2017)

I see a hole! Wheres the effin light?



Texting and Driving


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

active1 said:


> The old school way was to adjust the layout.
> .


I can't imagine how much time I wasted in my life doing this. :jester:

Hip roof framing getting in the way, plumbing and duct that you didn't anticipate etc. Then, after stud finding and probing, you can still hit an obstruction on the forth can in a room and screw everything up.

I also can't believed I liked a Hack post.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

220/221 said:


> I also can't believed I liked a Hack post.


:laughing:

Scary, huh?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I'll out electrician all you haters


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> I'll out electrician all you haters



:no::no:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MTW said:


> :no::no:


Ok, but I am still the best electrician I have seen in the last hour.


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## btharmy2 (Mar 11, 2017)

trentonmakes said:


> I see a hole! Wheres the effin light?
> 
> 
> 
> Texting and Driving


I was going to include a pic of the light installed but it seems a little silly since it just looks like a light installed in the ceiling.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

btharmy2 said:


> I was going to include a pic of the light installed but it seems a little silly since it just looks like a light installed in the ceiling.


Before's and after's are always a plus!


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