# Three- way switch puzzle



## xxrayxx33 (Oct 15, 2013)

I ran into this on a farm many years ago. The farmer had a yard light between his barn and his house controlled by two separate three way switches. In the barn he also had an outlet that was hot all the time. The problem was that there were only three wires between the house and the barn routed overhead through the yard light. No ground wires or any exterior wiring. I repaired the problem and then figured out how he had wired it. This call out to the farm was so educational that I didn't even end up charging him. I think you will find it interesting.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Nice plagiarism.


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## Chrisibew440 (Sep 13, 2013)

Boy! You have a way with words


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## Turkey Steve (Jun 21, 2013)

Chrisibew440 said:


> Boy! You have a way with words


Who?:blink:


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## rjniles (Aug 1, 2011)

You are obviously not an electrician if you never have seen or at least heard of a Carter 3 way.


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## wcord (Jan 23, 2011)

rjniles said:


> You are obviously not an electrician if you never have seen or at least heard of a Carter 3 way.


That will work, but you are switching the neutral, which here in Canada is against code. Not only that, but in one of the positions, the shell of the socket is energized, which also against our CEC.
Same for you guys?


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

wcord said:


> That will work, but you are switching the neutral, which here in Canada is against code. Not only that, but in one of the positions, the shell of the socket is energized, which also against our CEC.
> Same for you guys?


Yes, same here. That is not a compliant installation, just a working one.


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## gnuuser (Jan 13, 2013)

yeah Ive seen it too 
between a house and garage.
home owner got a nasty jolt once and called me.
when he found out why he got bit he immediately asked me to replace the wiring with a compliant three way.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

wcord said:


> .......
> Same for you guys?



Ah, yup...... :yes:


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## 123electric (Jun 3, 2012)

"Carter system" circa 1920


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## firelient (Dec 15, 2010)

This is how the knob and tube wire works in older homes also... We call it a Hot Shot 3way


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## Split Bolt (Aug 30, 2010)

"Tennessee 3-way" or "Lazy Susan 3-way" are names I've heard over the years!


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

rjniles said:


> You are obviously not an electrician if you never have seen or at least heard of a Carter 3 way.


I would bet most electricians have never heard of a carter 3 way. To tell someone they are not an electrician because of that is just wrong.


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## denny3992 (Jul 12, 2010)

rjniles said:


> You are obviously not an electrician if you never have seen or at least heard of a Carter 3 way.


Have fixed alot of knob and tube threewas like this, thanks my great grandfathers old books...

But who the hell is carter?


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## rjniles (Aug 1, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I would bet most electricians have never heard of a carter 3 way. To tell someone they are not an electrician because of that is just wrong.



Look at his profile and see what you think. BTW, I am not an electrician either (electrcal engineer and an iapprentice if a past life. )


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

:laughing: The OP hasn't been back since the day he posted this thread.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

hardworkingstiff said:


> :laughing: The OP hasn't been back since the day he posted this thread.


 No surprise. This place could have a lot more regular members if we went a little easier on them.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

rjniles said:


> Look at his profile and see what you think. BTW, I am not an electrician either (electrcal engineer and an iapprentice if a past life. )


His profile tells me he works residential but I had worked in the trade for 25 years and never heard of a carter 3 way till I starting visiting Mike Holt and Electricians Talk


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

Dennis Alwon said:


> His profile tells me he works residential but I had worked in the trade for 25 years and never heard of a carter 3 way till I starting visiting Mike Holt and Electricians Talk


I did some work in an old section in Norfolk called Ghent back in the 70's. I came across a couple of those. The 1st one took me a while to figure out. My boss was laughing at me (I'm not sure if he really knew how it worked or not).

Edit: It was knob and tube.


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## daveEM (Nov 18, 2012)

Never heard of this. Started trade in 1968.


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

Carter 3 way...aka: Chicago 3 way/ California 3/ switched neutral 3way..or as first noted here barn job 3 way....:no:


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

The man just _couldn't_ stick to peanut farming.....:laughing:~CS~


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

Aka "pres~jimbo 3way"....


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

I have heard so many names for these things. This I was told was a 2 wire travelling bus 3 way


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Vermont, being the land time forgot, is lousy with them ~CS~


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## Mshow1323 (Jun 9, 2012)

We call them Farmer's Hot to Hot, or a switched neutral. Carter 3 Way is a new one for me.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

California 3-way
Farmer 3-way
Power Beyond 3-way
Illinois 3-way
Chicago 3-way


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I have heard so many names for these things. This I was told was a 2 wire travelling bus 3 way


At least with that one you can keep the shell of the socket at the neutral potential, unlike the one shown earlier.


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

I learned that one in 1983 as a Farmers 3-way or a California 3-way


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## LARMGUY (Aug 22, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I would bet most electricians have never heard of a carter 3 way. To tell someone they are not an electrician because of that is just wrong.


Following this logic one could go the opposite way and say you're not an electrician if you "fixed it" back into a non-compliance mode too. Don't electricians have a duty/obligation to correct the violation? 

Correct?

I suppose duty and obligation are too strong. How about to advise against it because of the danger in addition to the code.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

LARMGUY said:


> Following this logic one could go the opposite way and say you're not an electrician if you "fixed it" back into a non-compliance mode too. Don't electricians have a duty/obligation to correct the violation?
> 
> Correct?


Was it a violation when it was installed?


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## Mshow1323 (Jun 9, 2012)

LARMGUY said:


> Following this logic one could go the opposite way and say you're not an electrician if you "fixed it" back into a non-complian ce mode too. Don't electricians have a duty to correct the violation?
> 
> Correct?


I think it has been clearly proven in the entire thread that we "electricians" call the same switch configuration a multitude of different names. Correct me in I'm wrong, but I don't believe any single poster here stated that he has not or does not fix this violation as he/she has come across it. I believe what Dennis is saying that just because someone has not heard of a Carter's Three Way does not mean that that same someone has not seen a Farmers Hot to Hot or any other verbiage that may be out there. The point is, calling someone a non electrician for not knowing the local slang is asinine.


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## LARMGUY (Aug 22, 2010)

Mshow1323 said:


> I think it has been clearly proven in the entire thread that we "electricians" call the same switch configuration a multitude of different names. Correct me in I'm wrong, but I don't believe any single poster here stated that he has not or does not fix this violation as he/she has come across it. I believe what Dennis is saying that just because someone has not heard of a Carter's Three Way does not mean that that same someone has not seen a Farmers Hot to Hot or any other verbiage that may be out there. The point is, calling someone a non electrician for not knowing the local slang is asinine.


Agreed. I was going the other way and have edited my post.


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## LARMGUY (Aug 22, 2010)

hardworkingstiff said:


> Was it a violation when it was installed?


A violation of what? A code book? A safety no-no that no one has even heard of? Wasn't it 480 that said it was because of knob and tube?


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

LARMGUY said:


> A violation of what? A code book? A safety no-no that no one has even heard of? Wasn't it 480 that said it was because of knob and tube?


I think most of those types of 3-ways were knob and tube.

All I'm trying to understand is if a 3-way switch goes bad, are you saying that the wiring needs to be upgraded in order to replace the defective 3-way?


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## LARMGUY (Aug 22, 2010)

hardworkingstiff said:


> I think most of those types of 3-ways were knob and tube.
> 
> All I'm trying to understand is if a 3-way switch goes bad, are you saying that the wiring needs to be upgraded in order to replace the defective 3-way?


No, not really. I'm thinking because of the possible safety/liability issues you have an obligation to advise what needs to be done to bring it into compliance and therefore safer. Good opportunity for an upsell and promotes you well in the farmer's eyes. 

I also am aware some counties don't enforce code compliance but the code was not put in place for monetary gain. Isn't it the minimum for safety's sake?


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

LARMGUY said:


> No, not really. I'm thinking because of the possible safety/liability issues you have an obligation to advise what needs to be done to bring it into compliance and therefore safer. Good opportunity for an upsell and promotes you well in the farmer's eyes.
> 
> I also am aware some counties don't enforce code compliance but the code was not put in place for monetary gain. Isn't it the minimum for safety's sake?


If it's wired like post 1 and 5, then I would not work on it unless I could bring it into compliance.

If it's wired like post 24, and all that was needed was a switch replacement, I would probably replace the switch even if the customer would not pay to have his walls cut up and new cables installed.


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## xxrayxx33 (Oct 15, 2013)

rjniles said:


> You are obviously not an electrician if you never have seen or at least heard of a Carter 3 way.





I don't see where the receptacle goes though


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

xxrayxx33 said:


> I don't see where the receptacle goes though


It's not shown, but would be hooked to the right side of the diagram, to the black & red.

It's sometimes called a "Power Beyond" arrangement.


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

RadioRA


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> No surprise. This place could have a lot more regular members if we went a little easier on them.



_ouch!_

~CS~


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## Djcubinlinx (Dec 21, 2013)

I've never heard of the carter 3 way. I only do new residential 60 story buildings in NYC. Sorry.


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## CTshockhazard (Aug 28, 2009)

Here's a three-way switch puzzle:


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## n5i5ken (Jun 5, 2011)

*3 way switch puzzle*

Gotta get me one of those puzzles Thank you for the post.
:thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## Rocweiler (Apr 6, 2014)

This is funny to see here. They used this as a question in my 1st year apprenticeship class at AEC/IEC. Asked how it would be wired to work and what makes it illegal now.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

I found this at a local art store-- incredibly complex but works


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