# IBEW pay



## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

Union: *International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers*
Membership: 685,000
Assets: $482 million
IBEW represents electricians, linemen and other public utility employees, along with some computer, telecommunications and broadcasting workers. Sixteen of the IBEW’s officers and employees in Washington earned more than $200,000 in 2009. Edwin D. Hill, the union president since 2001, received *$375,767* in pay and benefits. Hill and other top officials received salary increases averaging at least 4 percent each in the past several years, even as membership declined by 5 percent.

That's over 3.75 million over the last 10 years. 
​


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

drsparky said:


> Union: *International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers*
> Membership: 685,000
> Assets: $482 million
> IBEW represents electricians, linemen and other public utility employees, along with some computer, telecommunications and broadcasting workers. Sixteen of the IBEW’s officers and employees in Washington earned more than $200,000 in 2009. Edwin D. Hill, the union president since 2001, received *$375,767* in pay and benefits. Hill and other top officials received salary increases averaging at least 4 percent each in the past several years, even as membership declined by 5 percent.
> ...


Whats the question?

I know some 103 guys that pulled in over 200K


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## TheRightTrade (Feb 26, 2011)

That's really not that much money for the head of an organization of 685,000 people. 

Many of the areas like CA, NY, NJ, etc. have packages around $74/hr. For a normal year without overtime that's $150,000. BA's are making well into $200K when counting benefits. So $375K for the top dog doesn't seem very high.

He could go be a Vice President or many even CEO of a corporation and make a million+ per year with bonuses.


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## RyanB (Jul 14, 2009)

TheRightTrade said:


> That's really not that much money for the head of an organization of 685,000 people.
> 
> Many of the areas like CA, NY, NJ, etc. have packages around $74/hr. For a normal year without overtime that's $150,000. BA's are making well into $200K when counting benefits. So $375K for the top dog doesn't seem very high.
> 
> He could go be a Vice President or many even CEO of a corporation and make a million+ per year with bonuses.


In comparison, General Electric has 287,000 employees. The CEO of GE earned $14,209,267 in 2007, $5,717,469 in 2008, and $5,487,155 in 2009.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

RyanB said:


> In comparison, General Electric has 287,000 employees. The CEO of GE earned $14,209,267 in 2007, $5,717,469 in 2008, and $5,487,155 in 2009.


I wouldn't mind being Jeff's buddy.


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

RyanB said:


> In comparison, General Electric has 287,000 employees. The CEO of GE earned $14,209,267 in 2007, $5,717,469 in 2008, and $5,487,155 in 2009.


GE makes money by selling things, 2009 profit of $12 billion and 750 billion in assets. CEO GE --- .0000007% of assets.
Ed Hill -- 16% of IBEWs assets. Over 1100 electricians yearly dues go to pay his salary.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

And the person at the top of the company you work for takes out how much??


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

NEBF:

In 1988 further changes to the Fund were introduced, including 5-year vesting, unreduced early retirement benefits for eligible participants at age 62 or older, 5-year eligibility for disability, and a minimum disability benefit based on a minimum of 20 service credits. 

• Also effective in 1988, NEBF retirees were permitted to work less than 40 hours a month in covered employment without a suspension in benefits. 

• The "Restated Employees Benefit Agreement and Trust, and Plan of Benefits for the NEBF" was adopted in 1993. 

• In 1998 the joint-and-survivor benefit was enhanced to include a “pop up” provision in the event a retiree’s spouse predeceases the participant. In this event, the retiree’s benefit “pops up” to the level it would have been without the joint-and-survivor reduction, effective the first of the month following the spouse’s death. 

• Effective July 1, 2001, the basic benefit for new retirees was increased to $32 per month per service credit, and the minimum disability benefit was increased to $640 per month.


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

jrannis said:


> And the person at the top of the company you work for takes out how much??


I work for a small communications company, 12 employees, moneys tight, the economy is bad, we all are watching every nickel. I still belong to the IBEW and pay my dues even though I have not had a job referral in two years.
Yes I am paying for Ed and his crony's. I don't make anywhere near union scale but I am having fun.
I believe in the brotherhood but do not agree with how it is run at this time, they have fallen away from the ideals of Henry Miller and the founders of the IBEW.


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## RyanB (Jul 14, 2009)

Okay DrSparky, what do you think someone who manages an organization with almost 700 thousand members should be paid? Please include benefits, holidays, etc. 

Also, how many hours a week should he be expected to work. 

Thanks


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

RyanB said:


> Okay DrSparky, what do you think someone who manages an organization with almost 700 thousand members should be paid? Please include benefits, holidays, etc.
> 
> Also, how many hours a week should he be expected to work.
> 
> Thanks





> Also, how many hours a week should he be expected to work.


40.



> Okay DrSparky, what do you think someone who manages an organization with almost 700 thousand members should be paid? Please include benefits, holidays, etc.


$52,000 he is worth no more...:thumbup:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

RyanB said:


> Okay DrSparky, what do you think someone who manages an organization with almost 700 thousand members should be paid? Please include benefits, holidays, etc.
> 
> Also, how many hours a week should he be expected to work.
> 
> Thanks


Okay RyanB how effective is this person expected to be or should they just collect their salary regardless of how well the organization is doing?


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## Frank Mc (Nov 7, 2010)

BBQ said:


> Okay RyanB how effective is this person expected to be or should they just collect their salary regardless of how well the organization is doing?


Are you referring to the Banks..???

Frank


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

RyanB said:


> Okay DrSparky, what do you think someone who manages an organization with almost 700 thousand members should be paid? Please include benefits, holidays, etc.
> 
> Also, how many hours a week should he be expected to work.
> 
> Thanks


40 hours is enough for anyone, if you can't manage that take some classes on time management.

Term limits for president of four years, 10 years total time out of a local. Anyone who put down his tools 40 years ago has no idea what it is like in the real world.

100,000 would be a good figure. The IBEW could provide a house in DC for the president (like a mini white house).

A four star general makes less than $200,000 and as a much tougher job and responsibility than a Union president.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Do you want your top negotiator going head to head with owners that laugh at his salary or a man that can stand toe to toe, with the top brass of another company.

Now that the IBEW is losing market share, well the economy as a whole is losing share. If when the market returns and the IBEW is still losing, then it is time to replace him, or at the next election if the members feel so inclined.


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

brian john said:


> Do you want your top negotiator going head to head with owners that laugh at his salary or a man that can stand toe to toe, with the top brass of another company.
> 
> Now that the IBEW is losing market share, well the economy as a whole is losing share. If when the market returns and the IBEW is still losing, then it is time to replace him, or at the next election if the members feel so inclined.


premise 1 --- I don't buy it at all
premise 2 --- We will elect who ever Ed Hill anoints as his successor. Their is no mechanism for an outsider to run.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

drsparky said:


> premise 1 --- I don't buy it at all
> premise 2 --- We will elect who ever Ed Hill anoints as his successor. Their is no mechanism for an outsider to run.


 
And if Mr. Hill determines to remain active, I bet he can land a job with any large electrical firm he wishes.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

brian john said:


> And if Mr. Hill determines to remain active, I bet he can land a job with any large electrical firm he wishes.


Well no crap, anyone that would know the insiders at that many contractors could get a job.

But what does that mean?

Nothing other then friends take care of friends.


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## TheRightTrade (Feb 26, 2011)

drsparky said:


> GE makes money by selling things, 2009 profit of $12 billion and 750 billion in assets. CEO GE --- .0000007% of assets.
> Ed Hill -- 16% of IBEWs assets. Over 1100 electricians yearly dues go to pay his salary.


Assets mean absolutely nothing when comparing a corporation that is solely in business for profit vs. an organization that is in business to support it's members. 

The position is the only thing that matters. And that position commands a high salary.



> 100,000 would be a good figure.


 That's including benefits (pension, annuity, health and welfare, etc) so that's about a salary of $60,000 per year. That's less than most BM's and BA's make. That's less than many, many card carrying members make. 

How could you possibly get a decent president and CEO for that? This remings me of a few years back when everyone was complaining about how CEO's make so much, but what type of CEO are you going to get for less? Honest question, you need plumbing work done in your house, do you hire the plumber who estimates at $75/hr? Or the guy on Craigslists who works T&M at $25/hr? 



> A four star general makes less than $200,000 and as a much tougher job and responsibility than a Union president.


 Another off base comparison. You could say that the star general has a tougher job than any CEO, no? Remember one thing, that 4 star general makes more than his subordinates, correct? How well respected would the head of a 685,000 man organization be if half of his men made more than him? 

I'm all for kicking Ed Hill out, I'm also for salary penalties when market share is lost under his watch. But you would have to start the salary much higher.

I only wonder where we would be if we paid the million or two for a REAL CEO to run the IBEW...


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## RyanB (Jul 14, 2009)

drsparky said:


> 100,000 would be a good figure. The IBEW could provide a house in DC for the president (like a mini white house).


Good luck with that. :laughing:


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## Rust (Mar 15, 2011)

drsparky said:


> Union: *International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers*
> Membership: 685,000
> Assets: $482 million
> IBEW represents electricians, linemen and other public utility employees, along with some computer, telecommunications and broadcasting workers. Sixteen of the IBEW’s officers and employees in Washington earned more than $200,000 in 2009. Edwin D. Hill, the union president since 2001, received *$375,767* in pay and benefits. Hill and other top officials received salary increases averaging at least 4 percent each in the past several years, even as membership declined by 5 percent.
> ...


I say awesome, this is chump change when compared to the billions if not trillions the top 400 in this country manage to horde nearly free of taxes, and thats not even counting the huge banks and business that recieved bail outs, made record profit then wasted millions lobbying politicians. I think for holding together the best he can a bruised organization like the IBEW in an economy like this he deserves more.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Rust said:


> I say awesome, this is chump change when compared to the billions if not trillions the top 400 in this country manage to horde nearly free of taxes, and thats not even counting the huge banks and business that recieved bail outs, made record profit then wasted millions lobbying politicians. I think for holding together the best he can a bruised organization like the IBEW in an economy like this he deserves more.


Rust, that makes no sense, you are comparing multibillion dollar companies with a 600 million dollar nonprofit.


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## Rust (Mar 15, 2011)

BBQ said:


> Rust, that makes no sense, you are comparing multibillion dollar companies with a 600 million dollar nonprofit.


No I am not comparing anything just saying I think Ed Hill is worth that, when you look at where the money is at in this country thats all.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Rust said:


> No I am not comparing anything just saying I think Ed Hill is worth that, when you look at where the money is at in this country thats all.


I have no idea what you mean.


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## Rust (Mar 15, 2011)

BBQ said:


> I have no idea what you mean.


What part of that confuses you?


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## wire dog (Mar 19, 2011)

I don't know if ed hill is worth 375,000 but i would hope he would come up with a new idea for that pay. what is the difference between this cw/ce and the intermedate jouryman back in the 90's? same thing different name. imo


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

RyanB said:


> Good luck with that. :laughing:


$100,000.00 in Washington DC gets you know where.


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## RobTownfold64 (Mar 17, 2011)

brian john said:


> $100,000.00 in Washington DC gets you know where.


That's probably right around what journeymen there make. Foreman are most likely higher than that. I can't see how someone would expect the top dog to make less.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Rust said:


> I say awesome, this is chump change when compared to the billions if not trillions the top 400 in this country manage to horde nearly free of taxes,





BBQ said:


> Rust, that makes no sense, you are comparing multibillion dollar companies with a 600 million dollar nonprofit.





Rust said:


> No I am not comparing anything just saying I think Ed Hill is worth that, when you look at where the money is at in this country thats all.





BBQ said:


> I have no idea what you mean.





Rust said:


> What part of that confuses you?


All the words between "No" and "all"


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

RobTownfold64 said:


> That's probably right around what journeymen there make. Foreman are most likely higher than that. I can't see how someone would expect the top dog to make less.


 
60-100 G's plus benefits, vacation, retirement.

Top superviors office personell 110-150 G's

Owners 2,000.00-2,500.00 a year:whistling2:


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## Rust (Mar 15, 2011)

BBQ said:


> All the words between "No" and "all"


What do you think Ed Hill is worth?

I previously stated that I believe he is worth more when you consider some of the people who make triple that and do nothing at all, what part of that confuses you BBQ, the part where you have to read a word longer than 3 letters such as all lol jk


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Rust said:


> What do you think Ed Hill is worth?
> 
> I previously stated that I believe he is worth more when you consider some of the people who make triple that and do nothing at all, what part of that confuses you BBQ, the part where you have to read a word longer than 3 letters such as all lol jk


 
Now you are showing some of the lose IQ, workers get when discussing business, CEO's work fro their money. Are they over paid? Depends who you ask.

Earlier you said they pay little or no taxes again a lose of IQ on your part. 
.

Those making above 250,000 pay 90% of the taxes paid in this country. I posted the stats a while back and too lazy to do so again.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

brian john said:


> Owners 2,000.00-2,500.00 a year:whistling2:


But the experience of it all...... That's priceless!


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

brian john said:


> 60-100 G's plus benefits, vacation, retirement.
> 
> Top superviors office personell 110-150 G's
> 
> Owners 2,000.00-2,500.00 a year:whistling2:


Never met an owner yet that admitted to making money.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Loose Neutral said:


> Never met an owner yet that admitted to making money.


 
The above salary was before taxes.


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## Stan B. (Jul 25, 2008)

If the non-union guys here could find a way to be paid a penny every time they froth about us union guys, they'd make up the pay disparity in no time.


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

Stan B. said:


> If the non-union guys here could find a way to be paid a penny every time they froth about us union guys, they'd make up the pay disparity in no time.


Just consider that there are plenty of non-union guys that would like the same pay and benefits as the union.

Unfortunately, the IBEW is very exclusive, and even to a degree, elitist.


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## Stan B. (Jul 25, 2008)

Frasbee said:


> Just consider that there are plenty of non-union guys that would like the same pay and benefits as the union.


I hope they can convince their co-workers to vote to be represented by a union. Those aren't the guys I was directing my comments towards, as you well know.



> Unfortunately, the IBEW is very exclusive, and even to a degree, elitist.


Not so, they took me! 

It's true we aren't in favor of cheap, throwaway labour - that's kind of the point. Just as companies don't need to take on employees until there's work to suit, the union doesn't need members so much as it needs to capture market share. That means convincing you guys to organize your shops. We already are convinced.


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

Stan B. said:


> It's true we aren't in favor of cheap, throwaway labour - that's kind of the point. Just as companies don't need to take on employees until there's work to suit, the union doesn't need members so much as it needs to capture market share. That means convincing you guys to organize your shops. We already are convinced.


Easier said than done. A person risks their employment and good standing with their working peers if they express interest in organizing when everybody else has negative feelings towards unions.

In class the other day I heard one of my coworkers say, "Unions make people lazy." I do not hold this person's opinion in high regard, but it's his opinion nonetheless and with it, I could make an educated guess as to how he would vote.

I have mixed feelings on this subject so I won't argue either way.


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## RyanB (Jul 14, 2009)

Frasbee said:


> Unfortunately, the IBEW is very exclusive, and even to a degree, elitist.


In my class of 16 students, there were four people over 30 years old (one guy was 42), one woman, some non-white students, and 12 out of 16 had no family member or friend in the union.


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

RyanB said:


> In my class of 16 students, there were four people over 30 years old (one guy was 42), one woman, some non-white students, and 12 out of 16 had no family member or friend in the union.


I had a similar discussion with a California boy the other day. Locals differ from city to city, and state to state.

In New Orleans, Louisiana I could walk in and get snapped up immediately. It's a right to work state where the Unions hold little power and their pay and benefits barely exceed the non-union sector. Things just don't work the same where I am at current.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Stan B. said:


> If the non-union guys here could find a way to be paid a penny every time they froth about us union guys, they'd make up the pay disparity in no time.


 
Stan,

Do you wear blinders or maybe you baseball hat is on backwards, which automatically deducts 15 points from your IQ?

This has been discussed over and over. For any smack talk started by open shop men, there has been a proportional amount of anti-open shop talk. 

People are people are it goes equally, the union does not have some high moral ground in this debate.. Well almost equally as the union share is shrinking.

Plus and PLEASE ANSWER this question, the Union Bro's never answer a question that proves them wrong.

When was the last time you saw an open shop electrician show up with an inflatable slacker and picket a union shop?


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## RyanB (Jul 14, 2009)

Frasbee said:


> In New Orleans, Louisiana I could walk in and get snapped up immediately. It's a right to work state where the Unions hold little power and their pay and benefits barely exceed the non-union sector. Things just don't work the same where I am at current.


Fair enough, but please qualify your statements. Saying the entire IBEW is "elitist" is going to be misinterpreted and feed into the anti-union rhetoric of the teabaggers.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

RyanB said:


> Fair enough, but please qualify your statements. Saying the entire IBEW is "elitist" is going to be misinterpreted and feed into the *anti-union rhetoric of the teabaggers*.


That is an ignorant statement and immediately degrades anything you post.

The union is pretty much a closed organization, while it seems to have improved in some areas, many locals are still basically closed to outsiders.

Ask any African American their chances of joining in the 50's or 60's. Ask many open shop men myself included that were asked in the interview, You got an uncle or cousin in the local? What about a neighbor? Ever consider being a plumber?

The union pretty much hurt itself in the market and this is shown by the shrinking market share.

This has been gone over numerous times in this forum, but the union has done more to damage it's image, than any concerted effort by open shop forces.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Brian, he is a Term 2 apprentice, previous experience as an electronics technologist, obviously he know it all. :laughing:


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

RyanB said:


> Fair enough, but please qualify your statements. Saying the entire IBEW is "elitist" is going to be misinterpreted and feed into the anti-union rhetoric of the teabaggers.





> Unfortunately, the IBEW is very exclusive, *and even to a degree*, elitist.


It was not my intention to make a blanket statement on all locals. I was pointing out however, that there are enough locals that act is this manner to mention.

I have mixed feelings about it because as an "outsider" the exclusive policies do not work to my benefit. However, I understand why they are in place and were I on the inside, I'm sure I would appreciate them.


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## RyanB (Jul 14, 2009)

Frasbee said:


> I have mixed feelings about it because as an "outsider" the exclusive policies do not work to my benefit. However, I understand why they are in place and were I on the inside, I'm sure I would appreciate them.


If you feel there's something unfair in your local, you should definitely speak up. Each local is different so our experiences will be different.


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## RyanB (Jul 14, 2009)

brian john said:


> That is an ignorant statement and immediately degrades anything you post.


Nah, not really. I was just politely asking Frasbee to qualify what he said in case it was misinterpreted. 

I pretty much expected you to come running (only took you 13 minutes!) to start another anti-union rant. I wasn't disappointed. :laughing:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

RyanB said:


> Nah, not really. I was just politely asking Frasbee to qualify what he said in case it was misinterpreted.
> 
> I pretty much expected you to come running (only took you 13 minutes!) to start another anti-union rant. I wasn't disappointed. :laughing:


Not anti-union anti-open shop bashing, members with your attitude do more to damage the union than all the good will spread by intelligent member.

I am sure I have done a lot more to help turn open shop men that you have or ever will.

As for being there with a quick response, well figure it out. Sometimes we are on line and other times not. Simple concept, you should get that.


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## Nildogg (Jul 29, 2010)

drsparky said:


> 40 hours is enough for anyone, if you can't manage that take some classes on time management.
> 
> Term limits for president of four years, 10 years total time out of a local. Anyone who put down his tools 40 years ago has no idea what it is like in the real world.
> 
> ...


 
A four star general has an easy job...do what the five star general tells you.


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

When i joined the union in 1999 i thought i was making the right decision at that time in my life, but, im reluctant to say if it was. I have been boouncing in out of shops since May of 2009. To date i have worked only 30 wks with my current union. I understand that bad times are cylical. I understand everyone's hurting. I get the fact that wwe have a collective barganing agreement and there are such clauses as furlough and how it effects us. I understand the fact that employers are not obligated to lay someone off because he's worked since the great deression.. What i dont understand is the union has shown a side to themselves that is dark and irie. How some men are put back to work because of a certian prerequiste he/she posses. I completed my JATC training, which qualfies me as a JOURNEYMEN. Im able to do the same as any one else who has completed the program and some. So why does someone else have prefrence over me? " Sorry brother your out of work why dont you try driving a cab" Im a ****ing electrcian, i choose this career because i love what i do, because of some stinking rule im supose to stay home and collect unemployment benefits becuase "you" tell me "brother" i cant go work for some other electrical contractor, i can't solict my own work. Hey brother you've been sitting behind that desk throughtout this rut, dont dictate to me what i should do to put food on my familys table.. " sir i need you to write a letter so i can submit an apllication for a trade license" " sorry brother i will not write a letter for you, NEVER!" You know Im starting think i made a bad decision in my life i thought we were a "brotherhood" help each other out in time of need. Instead they discourage you from suceding. Not me your justing making me stronger through out all of this. I refuse to go back. I've worked less and made more money working for my self and learned some much of what the real world is like. Hey Union take your head out of your ass and wake up!!!!!!
Please excuse me for any mispellings
Sal


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## doubleoh7 (Dec 5, 2009)

brian john said:


> That is an ignorant statement and immediately degrades anything you post.
> 
> The union is pretty much a closed organization, while it seems to have improved in some areas, many locals are still basically closed to outsiders.
> 
> ...


 


Colored people had a hard time joining anything in the 50's and 60's.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Sal,

It is a very tough market as you know. But there are differences in skill sets between electricians, this does not mean you cannot learn these skill sets.

I could not be a union official in this market having so many men out I think it has to be tough on most of the officials. 

I think that SOME officials may send friends and family out while others sit. Unfortunately that is business and a tough thing to get around, especially if you are the one being passed over.

I still think being union is best for most workers. If I was out of work I'd get a electrical job where ever I could union or not.


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

Brian,

A buddy of mine was caught moonlighting the other day. He hold a 

masters and pulled a permit for the job. The union fined him $8500.00.

The job he was doing returned a net profit of $2500.00. His YTD gross loss 

is now $6000 on top of lost wages since the begining of the year. Now, 

how is anyone suppose to get ahead. If you hold a Masters your frowned 

upon. They told one memeber, " dont pull anymore permits if you go back 

to work" well let you slide for now while your unemployed, but, if you do 

will bring you up on charges... WTF!!!


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## RobTownfold64 (Mar 17, 2011)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> Brian,
> 
> A buddy of mine was caught moonlighting the other day. He hold a
> 
> ...


I have to play Devil's Advocate here and say that you do sign a contract and one of the biggest and most important things is that you are not supposed to compete against union electrical work. 

That fact is that it's a really bad situation and there is no easy answer. Anything you do will be stepping on someone elses toe's and the only hope we have is for the economy to get better and people to start building more.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

RobTownfold64 said:


> I have to play Devil's Advocate here and say that you do sign a contract and one of the biggest and most important things is that you are not supposed to compete against union electrical work.
> 
> That fact is that it's a really bad situation and there is no easy answer. Anything you do will be stepping on someone elses toe's and the only hope we have is for the economy to get better and people to start building more.


SCREW THE UNION if it means the difference between feeding my family or making a group of jerks happy.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> Brian,
> 
> A buddy of mine was caught moonlighting the other day. He hold a
> 
> ...


Your union BLOWS. A MAN has to do what a MAN has to do. 

Was your friend competing against union shops?

I would take a job working where I could my family comes first.

Think the local will be there when you lose your house from non-payment?


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## RobTownfold64 (Mar 17, 2011)

brian john said:


> SCREW THE UNION if it means the difference between feeding my family or making a group of jerks happy.


Like I said, there is no easy answer. 

There are other non-competing jobs you can take to feed your family in order to honor your word and agreement. 

Also, it's not "making a group of jerks happy", it's supposed to be yourself too. You are hurting yourself in the long run by competing with the group that you yourself are a part by choice because you felt it was better.

It's like joining the NRA but then giving money to the Brady Campaign.

As I said, I don't care either way, I have no allegiances whatsoever and never claimed to.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

brian john said:


> SCREW THE UNION if it means the difference between feeding my family or making a group of jerks happy.


Yeah, screw having integrity.

If you sign a contract to get the good you have to accept the bad as well ...... unless you have no integrity.


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

brian john said:


> Your union BLOWS. A MAN has to do what a MAN has to do.
> 
> Was your friend competing against union shops?
> 
> ...


He was doing residential work which no contractor in our local does. He was installing a generator.

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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

BBQ said:


> Yeah, screw having integrity.
> 
> If you sign a contract to get the good you have to accept the bad as well ...... unless you have no integrity.


 
I would not pull permits and bid against union contractors. But if offered a job paying more A hardware store job and it was between losing my house and feeding my family. I'm going with my family.

Sal was complaining about being passed over as others are sent out. Integrity?

Many locals look the other way, they have no work and know the facts of life.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

All I am suggesting is honor what the contract requires.

Don't take a job that violates the contract, take another kind of job. When I was laid off in '91 I took a job as a landscaper just to get off unemployment.


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## Sparky3 (Nov 21, 2010)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> He was doing residential work which no contractor in our local does. He was installing a generator.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


The union should allow this brother to hold his card and a master licience , especially if he is trying to capture residential work and small jobs. To many union shops snub there nose at that work in NYC and result made the non union ec stronger.


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

I agree with everyone but there is a limit
For ex BBQ mentioned he worked for a landscaper when times were tough. 
This is how I view it. Regardless of what trade you decide to take, there is an affiliated union with that profession somewhere down the line. 
Ex. Union electrician can't work as a non- electrician but can work as non- union landscaper also known as a union laborer. 
Who are you hurting now. The union laborers. There's a cause and affect to everything. What they call that is MLAW!

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## RobTownfold64 (Mar 17, 2011)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> I agree with everyone but there is a limit
> For ex BBQ mentioned he worked for a landscaper when times were tough.
> This is how I view it. Regardless of what trade you decide to take, there is an affiliated union with that profession somewhere down the line.
> Ex. Union electrician can't work as a non- electrician but can work as non- union landscaper also known as a union laborer.
> ...


If you don't like it, don't sign up. It's not like any of this is new, everyone knows that being a union member might mean you have to strike for months or possibly years or there might be lack of work for that long too, in which you are not supposed to compete. The contract you sign doesn't say anything about other unions, only your own.

Now think about this, if all the union guys, both employed and unemployed weren't doing all that residential non-union work that you say your friend was doing, there would be a lot more work available for the union to get their foot in the door on the residential side. Right? But instead those guys are working unrepresented and against the contract and taking work from the union- while complaining about open shops..


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

RobTownfold64 said:


> If you don't like it, don't sign up. It's not like any of this is new, everyone knows that being a union member might mean you have to strike for months or possibly years or there might be lack of work for that long too, in which you are not supposed to compete. The contract you sign doesn't say anything about other unions, only your own.
> 
> Now think about this, if all the union guys, both employed and unemployed weren't doing all that residential non-union work that you say your friend was doing, there would be a lot more work available for the union to get their foot in the door on the residential side. Right? But instead those guys are working unrepresented and against the contract and taking work from the union- while complaining about open shops..


I agree with what your implying. But, there are also plenty of economic factors to consider. First of all none of the union contractors are willing to go after residential work, because theres no real  money in it for them. Paying someone 47.75 plus benefits which totals to about $80.00 an hr is A lot. They the union walked away from that work in my " area"
So most of our members are really not competing with them directly. 
Would you rather work for $405 a week doing a min skilled job, stay on unemployment benefits for 405 a wk or get paid $30.00 an hr non- union electrician??

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## RobTownfold64 (Mar 17, 2011)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> I agree with what your implying. But, there are also plenty of economic factors to consider. First of all none of the union contractors are willing to go after residential work, because theres no real money in it for them.


 Because sideworkers are doing it for $30/hr. Many of these sideworkers are unemployed union members.



> Paying someone 47.75 plus benefits which totals to about $80.00 an hr is A lot.


 There is no reason to pay that for residential work. most locals have either a B program or use the CE/CW classifications for residential work.


> They the union walked away from that work in my " area"


 That's a shame, maybe the guys who are out of work and mad about it should push the union back towards it? 


> Would you rather work for $405 a week doing a min skilled job, stay on unemployment benefits for 405 a wk or get paid $30.00 an hr non- union electrician??


What I would do doesn't make any difference. What matters is what the masses do, and what consequences it has on them.


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

RobTownfold64 said:


> Because sideworkers are doing it for $30/hr. Many of these sideworkers are unemployed union members.
> 
> There is no reason to pay that for residential work. most locals have either a B program or use the CE/CW classifications for residential work.
> That's a shame, maybe the guys who are out of work and mad about it should push the union back towards it?
> What I would do doesn't make any difference. What matters is what the masses do, and what consequences it has on them.


That's whom I'm referring to is the unemployed members.

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## RobTownfold64 (Mar 17, 2011)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> That's whom I'm referring to is the unemployed members.


And those members are the guys who say they need and deserve $80/hr yet go out and work for $30/hr on jobs that are direct competition with their local. They are cutting their own throats.


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

RobTownfold64 said:


> And those members are the guys who say they need and deserve $80/hr yet go out and work for $30/hr on jobs that are direct competition with their local. They are cutting their own throats.


Do you understand that there is not much work for us at this time. We have over 3000 journeyman unemployed. What would you like someone to do in this position???? So they should go work in Mcd's instead ???

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## RobTownfold64 (Mar 17, 2011)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> Do you understand that there is not much work for us at this time. We have over 3000 journeyman unemployed. What would you like someone to do in this position???? So they should go work in Mcd's instead ???


What did you agree to do?

Is McD's the only other job in the world?

You keep saying the same thing, yet you haven't discussed what I brought up 3 times now, how you doing non-union work is hurting yourselves.

Again, I am just playing Devil's Advocate trying to show you the view from the other side.


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

RobTownfold64 said:


> Because sideworkers are doing it for $30/hr. Many of these sideworkers are unemployed union members.
> 
> There is no reason to pay that for residential work. most locals have either a B program or use the CE/CW classifications for residential work.
> That's a shame, maybe the guys who are out of work and mad about it should push the union back towards it?
> What I would do doesn't make any difference. What matters is what the masses do, and what consequences it has on them.


So let me ask you, are you non or union electrician?

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## RobTownfold64 (Mar 17, 2011)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> So let me ask you, are you non or union electrician?


It's funny how out of everything I post you reply with a few words that are barely on topic.

What does my affiliation have to do with anything that I said? If something I said was incorrect, refute it.


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

RobTownfold64 said:


> It's funny how out of everything I post you reply with a few words that are barely on topic.
> 
> What does my affiliation have to do with anything that I said? If something I said was incorrect, refute it.


So would you like me to contest the implementation of the ce/cw classification as something good. Our M division falls into that cat and there is no mandated for us to revert to that classification. So how does this help us. For one organize more non union with that classification ce/cw. 
And add another 1000 men to the list of unemployed. The problem is the union hasxhad there back to the fire and there's nothing they can do to stop what's going on. There a bunch of hypocrites.

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## RobTownfold64 (Mar 17, 2011)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> So would you like me to contest the implementation of the ce/cw classification as something good. Our M division falls into that cat and there is no mandated for us to revert to that classification. So how does this help us. For one organize more non union with that classification ce/cw.


 No, I was speaking about a B program for use in residential work, our B program has been transformed into the CE/CW program, but we haven't taken any new guys in. It is used to put our current members on small works jobs and even residential. 


> The problem is the union hasxhad there back to the fire and there's nothing they can do to stop what's going on. There a bunch of hypocrites.


"They" are a bunch of hypocrites? Yet you are here supporting union men working non-union and competing against themselves :laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

RobTownfold64 said:


> No, I was speaking about a B program for use in residential work, our B program has been transformed into the CE/CW program, but we haven't taken any new guys in. It is used to put our current members on small works jobs and even residential.
> 
> "They" are a bunch of hypocrites? Yet you are here supporting union men working non-union and competing against themselves :laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


Well I guess you must be a liberal waiting for a handout. Because, you don't have the balls to walk away from the reigns of a dictatorship or even to defend yourself against them. Wake up buddy!! Stop waiting by the mailbox for your welfare check to come in!!! Unions were meant to protect the work from slave labor and deadly work conditions. It's changed Alot since the early 1900s Many laws have been inacted to protect the worker. I love my union and for what it stands for but a small amount of members can't be asked to sacrifice in the interim. Our country Isn't a third world nation.

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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

RobTownfold64 said:


> No, I was speaking about a B program for use in residential work, our B program has been transformed into the CE/CW program, but we haven't taken any new guys in. It is used to put our current members on small works jobs and even residential.
> 
> "They" are a bunch of hypocrites? Yet you are here supporting union men working non-union and competing against themselves :laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


And you can't even acknowledge wether your union or not. Concerned big brother is watching.

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## RobTownfold64 (Mar 17, 2011)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> And you can't even acknowledge wether your union or not. Concerned big brother is watching.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


Yeah, because when I say things like "Our B program" that doesn't make you think I may be union...

Whether I am union or not has nothing to do with this discussion, it's just something for you to use against me instead of discussing the situation itself. Kinda like the next post:


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## RobTownfold64 (Mar 17, 2011)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> Well I guess you must be a liberal waiting for a handout.


 Yes, a liberal. That's funny because my posts are the exact polar opposite  

As for waiting for a handout, I am and always have been fully employed.



> Because, you don't have the balls to walk away from the reigns of a dictatorship or even to defend yourself against them.


 I don't have the balls? First of all, I said multiple times that I was merely playing Devil's Advocate. You have serious reading comprehension problems.
Second, I explained that this isn't about balls, it's about honoring your word as a man and your name that you singed on the contract.




> Wake up buddy!! Stop waiting by the mailbox for your welfare check to come in!!!


 Who said I was on welfare? What you are doing is attacking me because you have no other way to refute what i said. 



> I love my union and for what it stands for but a small amount of members can't be asked to sacrifice in the interim.


No one asked for sacrifice. The only thing that is expected is for the members not to cut their own throat by going out and doing non-union work for pennies.

I've explained this multiple times already and the only thing you could come up with is that I am on welfare. So i am done arguing with you.


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

RobTownfold64 said:


> Like I said, there is no easy answer.
> 
> There are other non-competing jobs you can take to feed your family in order to honor your word and agreement.
> 
> ...


I guess you don't practice what you preach. So I guess your not union as you claim to be?

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## RobTownfold64 (Mar 17, 2011)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> I guess you don't practice what you preach. So I guess your not union as you claim to be?


LOL, more horrible reading comprehension while ignoring the subject at hand :laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

RobTownfold64 said:


> LOL, more horrible reading comprehension while ignoring the subject at hand :laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


I quote " I hold no allegiance whatsoever"
I quote " our B program"
If you were non union how would you know about ce/cw classification 
But yet ignore the fact that your union and you yourself have not honored your word. And your preaching to me how I should honor my contract. 
Make up your mind what side of the table you want to be on answer the question at hand are union or non union. 
I forgot I quote " that's not important"

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## RobTownfold64 (Mar 17, 2011)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> And your preaching to me how I should honor my contract.


 No, I am not preaching, I am informing you of the facts. 


> Make up your mind what side of the table you want to be on answer the question at hand are union or non union.


 I am on MY side of the table, that is all. 


> I forgot I quote " that's not important"


Of course it is not important. This discussion is about your friend and how he is hurting himself and his union. My affiliation has nothing to do with it. 

Instead of discussing the topic of your friend, you continue to turn the discussion around on ME, my welfare :laughing:, my affiliations. The only reason you do that is because you can't refute the facts I posted about your friend and his disservice to his local.

Who cares if I am union or not? Who cares if I am even an electrician? None of that makes any difference in this discussion about your friend.

Think, use your head, stop being a follower.


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

RobTownfold64 said:


> No, I am not preaching, I am informing you of the facts.
> I am on MY side of the table, that is all.
> Of course it is not important. This discussion is about your friend and how he is hurting himself and his union. My affiliation has nothing to do with it.
> 
> ...


Now, let's set the bar straight! If you read the post of which whom I was referring to my friend. I indeed was defending him in all regards. And , still to this day I'm defending the fact that I am a skilled worker and will to continue to do work related to my field with or without the consent of my union, to provide for my familys well being. I will not degrade myself into taking any other Job. I will not pursue a different career to appease my union or the contract that I signed. 
Get it now!! Have I obliged to the topic on hand. Or do I still have problems with reasons comprehension. Please let me know, I'm willing to make concessions at what cost. Mine or the unions.

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## RobTownfold64 (Mar 17, 2011)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> Now, let's set the bar straight! If you read the post of which whom I was referring to my friend. I indeed was defending him in all regards. And , still to this day I'm defending the fact that I am a skilled worker and will to continue to do work related to my field with or without the consent of my union, to provide for my familys well being.


 So you are willing to go against the contract that you signed, even tho there are many other avenues to support your family. That's OK, I don't really care. Just don't blame the union when there is no work at the hall, blame yourself for taking the work for pennies. 



> I will not degrade myself into taking any other Job.


 I didn't know that Electricians are the only honorable profession :laughing::laughing: You're a riot... 

In the end, you can do what you want, I don't care in the least. The only thing I care about is you not spreading bullsh1t. Let's lay the FACTS out on the table. Stop calling the union hypocrites when you are the hypocrite. Stop blaming the union when its you and your "brothers" who are hurting the group as a whole.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> I will not degrade myself into taking any other Job. I will not pursue a different career to appease my union or the contract that I signed.


By violating a contract you signed you have degraded yourself much more than taking a job cleaning potta-johns.

OTH, I have nothing but respect for a person that will take a job that is beneath them for the purpose of supporting their family. That is a real man.


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

Thank you gentlemen.

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## Widestance_Politics (Jun 2, 2010)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> Brian,
> 
> A buddy of mine was caught moonlighting the other day. He hold a
> 
> ...


 Seems to me that he could just pay the fine, drop the Union, and continue on his own......It's probably not too far fetched of an idea to think that he will probably be sitting on the books even longer now.....
Integrity and upholding a contract are respectful values to have, but they don't always pay the rent.....paying the fine will fulfill his contract and he can now move on.....


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## RobTownfold64 (Mar 17, 2011)

Widestance_Politics said:


> Seems to me that he could just pay the fine, drop the Union, and continue on his own......It's probably not too far fetched of an idea to think that he will probably be sitting on the books even longer now.....
> Integrity and upholding a contract are respectful values to have, but they don't always pay the rent.....paying the fine will fulfill his contract and he can now move on.....


I don't think he has to pay the fine if he is going to leave the union.


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

I tried taking jobs that I considered "below me". It's not as easy as some may think. When you work history is comprised of a trade completely unrelated to the position, no matter how over-qualified, you'll be put to the bottom of the pile.


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## Widestance_Politics (Jun 2, 2010)

I worked hard to get where I am and will do what i can to stay in this field/position......to drop down to a framer, landscaper, pizza delivery, minimum wage, etc. would be very depressing to me....


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