# Apprentice advice



## BDB (Jul 9, 2008)

theowl said:


> hi everyone, im a second year apprentice out of local 477, and i was hoping for some advice from the journeyman on the board. just things that you like and dont like when apprentices do, common mistakes and things that we might not realize our j-dubs want from us. it can be tough to ask these kinds of things on the job so i figure maybe here we can get some good knowledge from you guys.


Do NOT like:
1. Does not pay attention
2. Does not show any interest in wanting to learn
3. Does not have a pencil (or a marker)
4. Does not have the tools that he is suppose to have
5. Does not learn from his/her mistakes
6. Has cell phone with them
7. 10 bathroom breaks a day
8. Does not know how to wear a hat the right freakin way


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

BDB said:


> Do NOT like:
> 1. Does not pay attention
> 2. Does not show any interest in wanting to learn
> 3. Does not have a pencil (or a marker)
> ...


 
9. Smokes
10. Runs his mouth about meaningless stuff.
11 *ALWAYS HAS A PENCIL*
*12.* 480 da TOOL has an excellent list.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Have you ever noticed that when you get yelled at for doing the wrong thing, you seem to remember better the next time. After I show an apprentice how to do something, he won't necessarily do it perfectly for the first few times but I expect him to remember the steps. If it's just a memory thing,eg. load the gangbox at the end of shift, things like that, one time telling him should be enough. Keep your mind on your work and your memory will follow suit.


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## mikeh32 (Feb 16, 2009)

I no longer bring all of my tools in. I am done lending out all of my **** to journeyman. 

Granted I am the only one with a power drill/impact/sawzall, I think they should have their own, or at least the company should provide more then one


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

mikeh32 said:


> I no longer bring all of my tools in. I am done lending out all of my **** to journeyman.
> 
> Granted I am the only one with a power drill/impact/sawzall, I think they should have their own, or at least the company should provide more then one


 
The company should furnish these.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

mikeh32 said:


> I no longer bring all of my tools in. I am done lending out all of my **** to journeyman.
> 
> Granted I am the only one with a power drill/impact/sawzall, I think they should have their own, or at least the company should provide more then one


I think that is a great idea, but I would not let on that you were upset. Tell them that the SOB is going back to be worked on. If it was noticeably a good tool on the job, they will buy another...or a couple.


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## mikeh32 (Feb 16, 2009)

brian john said:


> The company should furnish these.


dont even get me going on that one. all the drills are burnt out, 3/4 of the flukes are not calibrated, or broken. we only have 8 and 10 foot ladders.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

mikeh32 said:


> dont even get me going on that one. all the drills are burnt out, 3/4 of the flukes are not calibrated, or broken. we only have 8 and 10 foot ladders.



This is a UNION shop?????

Your only required to bring the tools on the tool list. Leave the power tools at home.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

slickvic277 said:


> This is a UNION shop?????
> 
> Your only required to bring the tolls on the tool list. Leave the power tools at home.


That is a true statement. Again, the minimum is involved. A person can bring in tools that help him do his job. I am not in favor of an apprentice bringing in tools that the other journeymen use. I am in favor of anyone bringing in tools that help him/her do their job better, or faster, within reason. Just for the record...a D-9 is out of the question.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> That is a true statement. Again, the minimum is involved. A person can bring in tools that help him do his job. I am not in favor of an apprentice bringing in tools that the other journeymen use. I am in favor of anyone bringing in tools that help him/her do their job better, or faster, within reason. Just for the record...a D-9 is out of the question.



I don't give a flyin' fart how many hand tools a guy carry's. But POWER TOOLS........cut me a break.


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## mikeh32 (Feb 16, 2009)

slickvic277 said:


> This is a UNION shop?????
> 
> Your only required to bring the tolls on the tool list. Leave the power tools at home.


yeah, union. a prime example was we had to mount a rack to the floor. they gave us a hammer drill... that wouldnt hold a charge. so, i can either sit and drill for 1 minute, charge, drill, charge, drill charge, or just use my own. on top of that there where 6 of us on the site. 4 people needed drills. two for racks in idf and mdf, one for setting hooks with tapcon, and the other. cant recall, but he said he needed it


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

slickvic277 said:


> I don't give a flyin' fart how many hand tools a guy carry's. But POWER TOOLS........cut me a break.


Slick, I can feel your pain. I've been there. I have been drawn and quartered because I was told that the contractor was supposed to supply all electrical equipment for the job. I brought in my own box fan because it was 95 degrees F. Every thing in reason. Unions are supposed to be for worker's rights, but they can't govern every move a worker makes.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

mikeh32 said:


> yeah, union. a prime example was we had to mount a rack to the floor. they gave us a hammer drill... that wouldnt hold a charge. so, i can either sit and drill for 1 minute, charge, drill, charge, drill charge, or just use my own. on top of that there where 6 of us on the site. 4 people needed drills. two for racks in idf and mdf, one for setting hooks with tapcon, and the other. cant recall, but he said he needed it



And all along I thought Chicago was a strong union town. This is sad and pathetic. Where's the foreman?? He would be getting an ear full from me.
Next would be the delivery guy for the shop. And anyone else I knew who had a direct line of communication with the boss.

If the contractor wants to be in this industry he has to supply the right tools in working order to get the job done. Point blank. By bringing power tools to the job your facilitating his unprofessional behavior and perpetuating the situation. 

What's next, your own vehicle for material transportation, working O.T. for straight time, bringing your own hand benders, supplying your own material, etc, etc...


I'm not one of those guy's who lives by the tool list. I think everyone should have a large variety of good quality hand tools but power tools is where I draw the line. The contractor should provide those. Even when I worked non-union I didn't have to supply my own power tools. That's Mickey Mouse sh*t.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> Slick, I can feel your pain. I've been there. I have been drawn and quartered because I was told that the contractor was supposed to supply all electrical equipment for the job. I brought in my own box fan because it was 95 degrees F. Every thing in reason. Unions are supposed to be for worker's rights, but they can't govern every move a worker makes.



There is a huge difference between a fan and supplying power tools. I brought a portable heater for the trailer one winter and I was a hero!!

The contractor sent one, but it wasn't cutting it.

The difference is, improving conditions (fan or heater) VS the contractor not living up to his end of the deal, for example, supplying his men with the proper tools to get the job done in a profitable manner.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

slickvic277 said:


> And all along I thought Chicago was a strong union town. This is sad and pathetic. Where's the foreman?? He would be getting an ear full from me.
> Next would be the delivery guy for the shop. And anyone else I knew who had a direct line of communication with the boss.
> 
> If the contractor wants to be in this industry he has to supply the right tools in working order to get the job done. Point blank. By bringing power tools to the job your facilitating his unprofessional behavior and perpetuating the situation.
> ...


Overall...generally, I agree with you here.:thumbsup:


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## mikeh32 (Feb 16, 2009)

I agree with all of you. trust me. I would just rather stay working, until i can finish my bisci certs, and know i can get picked up by another shop. And yes unions are very strong in chicago, but im in the far north west suburbs. I was a past steward for local 705 teamsters. Unions run the city here.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

mikeh32 said:


> I agree with all of you. trust me. I would just rather stay working, until i can finish my bisci certs, and know i can get picked up by another shop. And yes unions are very strong in chicago, but im in the far north west suburbs. I was a past steward for local 705 teamsters. Unions run the city here.


I'll have to assume that this is the union topic section...I've not checked. I really hate to hear that unions run the city...anywhere. Unions do offer some benefits that are not available everywhere, and a lot of people take advantage of that. But it is only because they were voted in. I honestly don't remember anyone saying I wish I did not have a union job.


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## mikeh32 (Feb 16, 2009)

I love being in the union. dont get me wrong, great job, benefits, pay, training....

But being an apprentice, and with so many on the books. You just have to deal with it. I have seen people laid off for much less then bringing up not having the right tools.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

mikeh32 said:


> I no longer bring all of my tools in. I am done lending out all of my **** to journeyman.
> 
> Granted I am the only one with a power drill/impact/sawzall, I think they should have their own, or at least the company should provide more then one


You serious? It's not your problem if the job doesn't get done. I'd leave your power tools at home. Even legit non-union shops supply those.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

mikeh32 said:


> I love being in the union. dont get me wrong, great job, benefits, pay, training....
> 
> But being an apprentice, and with so many on the books. You just have to deal with it. I have seen people laid off for much less then bringing up not having the right tools.



If you have to supply tools that are not your responsibility to supply as per the contract because of being in fear of losing your job, well I'm sorry, but your union isn't doing there job, frankly your getting bent over.

I know work is slow and jobs are tough to come by but this would never, ever fly in my local. Honestly if the contractor kept sending broken power tools out to the job here and refused to have them fixed or replaced we would throw the P.O.S out.

What would happen if you needed a TE-75 Hilti gun and the one that was sent out didn't work properly? What if the contractor refused to remedy the problem? Would you go out and buy a large $2000 hammer drill? What if you didn't but someone else did? Now your laid off but the guy with the new drill get's your job?

Like I said, your perpetuating the problem.

What should be done is, the foreman should be made aware of the problem. Now the responsibility of communicating the problem to the shop is his. If the job loses money because the contractor can't live up to his commitments and he has been made aware of the issues, well tuff sh*t.
Maybe now he'll brake down and get the proper tools for the next one.

Your not helping yourself your only hurting yourself in the long run.
Setting a precedent that it's ok for the contractor to not live up to his end of the deal is not something you want to do.

I'm surprised the Journeyman are allowing this to go on.


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

slickvic277 said:


> Setting a *president* that it's ok


_Precedent._ :thumbsup:


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

slickvic277 said:


> What's next, your own vehicle for material transportation, working O.T. for straight time, bringing your own hand benders, supplying your own material, etc, etc...


Look out Vic's on a rant. :laughing::laughing:


You forgot that the EC is allowed to have relations with all the guys wives and owns the first male child born as a slave. :jester:


To the OP, either complain to the right person in the union or look for a new job, this EC does not sound like one you want to stick with.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

nitro71 said:


> It's not your problem if the job doesn't get done.



I know what you are saying but at the same time I sure hate that 'I don't care about the work' attitude.

I cannot show up for work and not care about being productive.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> *Look out Vic's on a rant*. :laughing::laughing:



I figured I was do for one.:thumbsup:


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> I know what you are saying but at the same time I sure hate that 'I don't care about the work' attitude.
> 
> I cannot show up for work and not care about being productive.


I know, I'm the same way. But the guys a apprentice. He's supposed to be there to take direction, learn, help his JW get his assigned project done. It shouldn't be up to him to make sure that things get done with his power tools because no one else brings them in. He's working for a poor company for sure. I do care about the projects but when the company expects you to buy material on your credit card, bring in all your own power tools, cords, lights, you name it. There is a point where NMP comes into play. The owner of that company in the end is the one responsible for that job being completed.


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## mikeh32 (Feb 16, 2009)

the journeyman knows as well. she asks and asks, but nothing ever comes. I wish i could say i was there to learn, but half of this job was IT based as well. No one knew what the **** to do, but me. I offered to do it, but not at apprentice pay. I also own an IT consulting firm. 

I was just shocked that no one knew how to hook up this ****. 

I am off the site now too. Lets just say I had enough. I am looking to file a grievance possibly due to a bunch of other stuff. No PPE, no safety gear/tie offs, non paid holidays while working under vdv, no paid days off while under vdv, wage garnishing under vdv.

for you a cards, c cards get way different benefits when we dont work in our local. 

I am also thinking a lay off might come soon, but i was told probably not due to they want to keep me around so they can bid on IT contracts


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

slickvic277 said:


> I figured I was do for one.:thumbsup:


:yes:


It's not like I have never ranted. :jester:


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

mikeh32 said:


> for you a cards, c cards get way different benefits when we dont work in our local.
> 
> I am also thinking a lay off might come soon, but i was told probably not due to they want to keep me around so they can bid on IT contracts


Do not stick around. No good deed goes unpunished. They will take full advantage of your 'generosity.'

There is a better shop where you will be happy, down the road. Apprentice techs do not have to wait long to go back out to work.

Then again, this is not necessarily the shop's fault. It most likely is that you have a sh1t-hole PM. Working for a different PM in the same shop is as distinct as working for different shops.

Think twice about going to the hall to raise hell. That will hang over you like a cloud the rest of your career, as the world is very small. Just saying that, because it will cast you in a negative light if you're seen as a pipe-line to the hall (or shop.)


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Screw up the lunch order or the coffee run enough times and your problem will fix itself. :jester:


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

theowl said:


> hi everyone, im a second year apprentice out of local 477, and i was hoping for some advice from the journeyman on the board. just things that you like and dont like when apprentices do, common mistakes and things that we might not realize our j-dubs want from us. it can be tough to ask these kinds of things on the job so i figure maybe here we can get some good knowledge from you guys.


 Your local puts out some quality Journeymen and I respect John Brown (I have not always agreed with him but there is respect) I would advise you to contact Rick Purper for any technical questions(tool list, apprentice responsibilities, etc) but asking this board for this sort of information could be compared to using blasting caps to fish in the game wardens back yard.As you can already see by the responding post many on this board are more interested in entertainment than to help a Brother or Sister with day to day problems on the job.


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

Bob Badger said:


> :yes:
> 
> 
> It's not like I have never ranted. :jester:


double negative there chief.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Brother Noah said:


> I respect John Brown


Bob Marley sure didn't. :no:


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## v277480 (Jul 11, 2010)

as an apprentice, you should at least let your training director (JATC) know if your foreman cant remedy the situation. Your JATC director has alot of power in terms of letting appentices go to that paticular contractor in the future. good luck!


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## migidametz (Aug 11, 2010)

If your drill broke on their job, do you think your contractor is going to replace it?


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## mikeh32 (Feb 16, 2009)

miller_elex said:


> Do not stick around. No good deed goes unpunished. They will take full advantage of your 'generosity.'
> 
> There is a better shop where you will be happy, down the road. Apprentice techs do not have to wait long to go back out to work.
> 
> ...


its not just me going. probably 6 others if not more


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

mikeh32 said:


> its not just me going. probably 6 others if not more


Now is not the time to get a 'quit.' Make sure you don't leave without an ROF. Protect number one, yourself. I know that here, you can't be terminated for working slow, you can only be layed off. They can say you're terminated for working slow, but it is a layoff. I learned that from an AGC handbook.


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## App.Electrician (Jun 2, 2009)

This sounds like a situation that needs the steward. Every jobsite has one. Well SUPPOSED, to have one.


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## mikeh32 (Feb 16, 2009)

I did leave the company. At the halls request


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## sparks134 (Jan 30, 2009)

mikeh32 said:


> I did leave the company. At the halls request


Did the school find you a job yet?


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## mikeh32 (Feb 16, 2009)

sparks134 said:


> Did the school find you a job yet?


nope. 8 months off now. I am still in the union, but went back to IT work. Started a consulting firm again, and im currently starting another company. Doing all the legal ****


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## sparks134 (Jan 30, 2009)

mikeh32 said:


> nope. 8 months off now. I am still in the union, but went back to IT work. Started a consulting firm again, and im currently starting another company. Doing all the legal ****


All my brothers in 134 are still sitting on the bench, 14 months. Hang in there!


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

sparks134 said:


> Hang in there!


Do what you gotta do for you, don't hang on til the very end, because then you'll have NO chance for receovery.

My folks lost everything when I was a kid, and nobody should have to endure that sh1t. Imagine having to suck up to your mother-in-law who hates you for grocery money and a P.O.S. jap car from the sixties. Nut up, Mike you're doing the right thing, and remember what kind of people are the suck-pumps who keep working at the shops when they aren't anywhere near the best electricians. Like the fitters say, the guys who keep the jobs are the stock-holders and ****-holsters, you and I have allegiance to neither.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

mikeh32 said:


> went back to IT work. Started a consulting firm again,


I did a bunch of demo yesterday, ripped out four-generations of phone and network cable, probably weighed 500 pounds. There was three sheets of plywood with 66 blocks. Ugly beast that lives in every old building used for business.

All of it was replaced by single-hits of CAT6 from the cisco network rack. VOIP stuff, to think five anacondas was replaced by one weenie-wire. I am glad to see the sh1t-river of phone cable replaced by a few neat and clean runs of CAT6. Now I can get the tiles open without calling Vladimir over to press them upwards.


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## mikeh32 (Feb 16, 2009)

miller_elex said:


> I did a bunch of demo yesterday, ripped out four-generations of phone and network cable, probably weighed 500 pounds. There was three sheets of plywood with 66 blocks. Ugly beast that lives in every old building used for business.
> 
> All of it was replaced by single-hits of CAT6 from the cisco network rack. VOIP stuff, to think five anacondas was replaced by one weenie-wire. I am glad to see the sh1t-river of phone cable replaced by a few neat and clean runs of CAT6. Now I can get the tiles open without calling Vladimir over to press them upwards.


its nice with cat6 being the standard, but I am still doing a good amount of 66 block work. 

Maybe one day they will stop using them

As far as why am i staying in the union. Schooling is damn near free. I have a degree already, and with the credits from the JATC, I will be able to finish off my electrical engineering degree. So, not only have 2 degrees, Have my c card, and a whole bunch of IT certs


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## henderson14 (Oct 23, 2010)

mikeh32 said:


> its nice with cat6 being the standard, but I am still doing a good amount of 66 block work.
> 
> Maybe one day they will stop using them
> 
> As far as why am i staying in the union. Schooling is damn near free. I have a degree already, and with the credits from the JATC, I will be able to finish off my electrical engineering degree. So, not only have 2 degrees, Have my c card, and a whole bunch of IT certs



Our school credits don't count towards a electrical engineering degree. They only count towards some A.S. degree at west side tech. No 4 year college will accept them. NIU did at one point but no one took advantage of it so that deal is gone. Remember that we are in trade school, not college.


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## mikeh32 (Feb 16, 2009)

henderson14 said:


> Our school credits don't count towards a electrical engineering degree. They only count towards some A.S. degree at west side tech. No 4 year college will accept them. NIU did at one point but no one took advantage of it so that deal is gone. Remember that we are in trade school, not college.


I am going a different route. C cards cant even get a degree, only a cards. 

I have enough credit hours toward the EE, that it wont be an issue. or so i was told.


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## henderson14 (Oct 23, 2010)

mikeh32 said:


> nope. 8 months off now. I am still in the union, but went back to IT work. Started a consulting firm again, and im currently starting another company. Doing all the legal ****



I thought C cards had full employment for apprentices. I know they did because I had been calling the apprentice referral line.


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## mikeh32 (Feb 16, 2009)

henderson14 said:


> I thought C cards had full employment for apprentices. I know they did because I had been calling the apprentice referral line.


not in 150. Other places i have heard this to be true.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

My company policy

If you need it buy it.
If it is over a few 100 dollars call for clearance.

If it is broke fix it or have it fixed ASAP
If it cannot be fixed, buy a new one.

If the battery id dead.....Well it better be charged.
Old battery REPLACE IT.

A man without proper tools can hardly be expected to work efficiently or make me any money.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

brian john said:


> A man without proper tools can hardly be expected to work efficiently or make me any money.


Well DUH!


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## Malaking_TT (Dec 17, 2010)

slickvic277 said:


> And all along I thought Chicago was a strong union town. This is sad and pathetic. Where's the foreman?? He would be getting an ear full from me.
> Next would be the delivery guy for the shop. And anyone else I knew who had a direct line of communication with the boss.
> 
> If the contractor wants to be in this industry he has to supply the right tools in working order to get the job done. Point blank. By bringing power tools to the job your facilitating his unprofessional behavior and perpetuating the situation.
> ...


That is actually one of the things I worry about if I was to join the union. I like to have my OWN cordless tools and don't want to rely on what I might consider to be sub-standard drills and sawzalls. Currently I own 3 drills, 2 impacts, 1 driver, a sawzall and a ridgid multi tool. I've been told I would need to leave all that stuff at home.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Malaking_TT said:


> That is actually one of the things I worry about if I was to join the union. I like to have my OWN cordless tools and don't want to rely on what I might consider to be sub-standard drills and sawzalls. Currently I own 3 drills, 2 impacts, 1 driver, a sawzall and a ridgid multi tool. I've been told I would need to leave all that stuff at home.


If one of your main concerns about joining the union is if you get to play with your own toys, then forget about it. It's not for you.

Not trying to be a **** or anything just keeping it real with ya.


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## Malaking_TT (Dec 17, 2010)

slickvic277 said:


> If one of your main concerns about joining the union is if you get to play with your own toys, then forget about it. It's not for you.
> 
> Not trying to be a **** or anything just keeping it real with ya.


I didn't say it's one of the "main" things, I said it's ONE of the things. The list is long. The main concern is weather or not I'll be able to work steady. Never had a problem staying busy non-union, just a fear of the unknown I guess.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Malaking_TT said:


> I didn't say it's one of the "main" things, I said it's ONE of the things. The list is long. The main concern is weather or not *I'll be able to work steady*. Never had a problem staying busy non-union, just a fear of the unknown I guess.



Really that all depends on a lot of factors. How about the ones you can't control. Like your area's market share. I see your in Oregon, I hear they have a strong union and good market share. Talk to Miller about the particulars.

Another thing is the culture shock. For some it comes natural, for others, well they're worried about using their power tools.

You can talk to 60 members of the same local and get 60 different responses and opinions. Do the research, ask around and make up your own mind about it.

I'm not really the guy to talk to. I'm to bi-polar, when it comes to my union I think I confuse most people here.

Good luck.


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## SparkYZ (Jan 20, 2010)

Malaking_TT said:


> That is actually one of the things I worry about if I was to join the union. I like to have my OWN cordless tools and don't want to rely on what I might consider to be sub-standard drills and sawzalls. Currently I own 3 drills, 2 impacts, 1 driver, a sawzall and a ridgid multi tool. I've been told I would need to leave all that stuff at home.


I feel the same way.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Malaking_TT said:


> That is actually one of the things I worry about if I was to join the union. I like to have my OWN cordless tools and don't want to rely on what I might consider to be sub-standard drills and sawzalls. Currently I own 3 drills, 2 impacts, 1 driver, a sawzall and a ridgid multi tool. I've been told I would need to leave all that stuff at home.


That is Ridiculous .. Why would they tell you to leave your tools at home


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## Malaking_TT (Dec 17, 2010)

HARRY304E said:


> That is Ridiculous .. Why would they tell you to leave your tools at home


If I remember right it was something about making sure it was a level playing field for all workers. If you don't believe me call 280 and ask about it. Just hand tools no power tools.


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## mikeh32 (Feb 16, 2009)

its true. locals will bitch if you have your own power tools. 

we do it a lot as c cards, and no one seems to bitch. but ive seen it happen. people are told to use only company power tools, and bring there tools back. 

One instance where we always use my tool, is mounting racks to the floor. its much easier with an impact, then it is a drill


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Malaking_TT said:


> If I remember right it was something about making sure it was a level playing field for all workers. If you don't believe me call 280 and ask about it. Just hand tools no power tools.





> level playing field for all workers


That is a good enough reason to stay away from the union they will turn you into a non productive worker....:no:


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> That is a good enough reason to stay away from the union they will turn you into a non productive worker....:no:



Harry read this statement out loud to yourself, yes, it does sound that stupid.


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## doubleoh7 (Dec 5, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> That is a good enough reason to stay away from the union they will turn you into a non productive worker....:no:


 
A productive worker is one who brings home enough in wages and benefits to have a secure, comfortable living.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

doubleoh7 said:


> A productive worker is one who brings home enough in wages and benefits to have a secure, comfortable living.


Well that is 1/4 the story, be non-productive according to the boss and the only thing you'll bring home is your sorry butt.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

slickvic277 said:


> Harry read this statement out loud to yourself, yes, it does sound that stupid.


No i don't beleive so..Out here in the real world Electricians that bring their tools to work, Get the work...

Electricians that show up with a pair of side cutters and a screw driver with the attitude that the tools should be supplyed get sent home...


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> No i don't beleive so..Out here in the real world Electricians that bring their tools to work, Get the work...
> 
> Electricians that show up with a pair of side cutters and a screw driver with the attitude that the tools should be supplyed get sent home...



Your just inexperienced. I've worked on both sides and never had to supply my own power tools. That's mickey mouse sh*t.
Only bottom feeders make their men bring power tools to the job.

I don't know about the side cutters and screwdriver thing, I probably own more hand tools then most electricians.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Malaking_TT said:


> If I remember right it was something about making sure it was a level playing field for all workers..


I think you've got what it takes to be successful wherever you go.

If you're planning on crossing-over, now's the time to sign-up, as you'll have plenty of time to work through the glut and make a home for yourself.

Sure there will be culture-shock, I still deal with that B.S!


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## RUSSIAN (Mar 4, 2008)

HARRY304E said:


> No i don't beleive so..Out here in the real world Electricians that bring their tools to work, Get the work...
> 
> Electricians that show up with a pair of side cutters and a screw driver with the attitude that the tools should be supplyed get sent home...


We are REQUIRED to own/use an extensive list of hand tools, but NO power tools. I'm always suprised when this comes up on here. Not everyone has the means to buy/replace multiple power tools. IMO this an advantage to working union, not a disadvantage. I owned 2 cordless drill sets when I worked non union, and honestly a $300 drill for an apprentice making $10.00 an hr is B.S, yes there are cheaper alternatives thus why I owned two:whistling2:.
It is true that you will work for shops with substandard tools, but it's not the norm. Most have quality tools and replace/fix promptly. And the first time you dont have to drop a bill on new batteries you'll be thankful, all the while making more cash:thumbsup:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

slickvic277 said:


> Your just inexperienced. I've worked on both sides and never had to supply my own power tools. That's mickey mouse sh*t.
> Only bottom feeders make their men bring power tools to the job.
> 
> I don't know about the side cutters and screwdriver thing, I probably own more hand tools then most electricians.


While I agree with you about the power tools, remember our share of the market is shrinking every year.


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## Malaking_TT (Dec 17, 2010)

RUSSIAN said:


> We are REQUIRED to own/use an extensive list of hand tools, but NO power tools. I'm always suprised when this comes up on here. Not everyone has the means to buy/replace multiple power tools. IMO this an advantage to working union, not a disadvantage. I owned 2 cordless drill sets when I worked non union, and honestly a $300 drill for an apprentice making $10.00 an hr is B.S, yes there are cheaper alternatives thus why I owned two:whistling2:.
> It is true that you will work for shops with substandard tools, but it's not the norm. Most have quality tools and replace/fix promptly. And the first time you dont have to drop a bill on new batteries you'll be thankful, all the while making more cash:thumbsup:


The first shop I worked for supplied cordless drills but I'd say 99.9% here make you buy your own. That first shop let me use a brand new 9.6v DeWalt with a 3/8" chuck while the journeymen got 14.4's. It was just fine if you were trimming but it only did about 3 holes with a 1/2" P&R bit.


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## Ziggy (Feb 2, 2011)

theowl said:


> hi everyone, im a second year apprentice out of local 477, and i was hoping for some advice from the journeyman on the board. just things that you like and dont like when apprentices do, common mistakes and things that we might not realize our j-dubs want from us. it can be tough to ask these kinds of things on the job so i figure maybe here we can get some good knowledge from you guys.


 Don't talk about work on your unpaid breaks.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

slickvic277 said:


> Your just inexperienced. I've worked on both sides and never had to supply my own power tools. That's mickey mouse sh*t.
> Only bottom feeders make their men bring power tools to the job.
> 
> I don't know about the side cutters and screwdriver thing, I probably own more hand tools then most electricians.





> Your just inexperienced


Yes your right i have only been in the trade for 35 years some day i will learn..

Thanks slickvic. I think i will start supplying all the power tools and tell the guys to leave the tools at home . then i will cut $5 an hour off their pay since they won't need the premium pay they get for bringing their tools to work thanks man..:laughing:


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> Yes your right i have only been in the trade for 35 years some day i will learn..
> 
> Thanks slickvic. I think i will start supplying all the power tools and tell the guys to leave the tools at home . then i will cut $5 an hour off their pay since they won't need the premium pay they get for bringing their tools to work thanks man..:laughing:



I worked non-union for a shop with about 30-35 guys in it. All the tools and material you could ever need where supplied for you. Except for handtools. This guy has been in business for around 30 years and is still slammin' busy today.

All the large successful open shops out here in the burbs supply power tools. I'm talking about shops like BSI and Philip Brothers. Google them. All they do is PW work too.

Actually as much as like to smack talk with my non-union brothers, I haven't seen any difference between the quality and type of tools supplied between my union and non union shop experience.

But hell, more power to ya if you can get guys to supply their own power tools. Me personally, I would never stick around with a shop who's asking me to do that.

I just hope you don't ask them to supply their own drill bits too.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Malaking_TT said:


> The first shop I worked for supplied cordless drills but I'd say 99.9% here make you buy your own.


That's not true, the other two big non-union shops in town supply power tools. I worked for one of them, and the other one is all bunheads.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

slickvic277 said:


> I worked non-union for a shop with about 30-35 guys in it. All the tools and material you could ever need where supplied for you. Except for handtools. This guy has been in business for around 30 years and is still slammin' busy today.
> 
> All the large successful open shops out here in the burbs supply power tools. I'm talking about shops like BSI and Philip Brothers. Google them. All they do is PW work too.
> 
> ...


IDK what the union does around here they are closed to all exchept specilal people ..

Out here i never worked for a shop that supplys cordless drills the guys allways bring there own and don't have to be asked tyhey take good care of the tools they own and i beileve having a set of drill bits is on most of the tool lists anyhow.....BTW i supply all the drill bits on my jobs


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

HARRY304E said:


> Out here i never worked for a shop that supplys cordless drills the guys allways bring there own and don't have to be asked tyhey take good care of the tools they own


Do I have a problem supplying power tools for ordinary electrical work? No. They don't get used to death.

On big commercial jobs with lots of production, it's down right wrong to ask a man to supply a drill and batteries, that drill will have the trigger held down six-hours out of the day.

What's next, supply my own oil-bucket for the threader?
Tri-stand?
Porta-band?
Stand-lights?
8' Ladder?
Roto-Hammer?

A guy I worked with supplied his own service-van with tools, and he got paid a small fortune by the shop. He ruined a good thing though, he was slow as snake sh1t, sand-bagged to push the job into overtime, and made alot of extra demands for more money. He got the better deal though, he was basically getting paid like he was two men. Realistically, he was just acting like another contractor hired off the street.

I guess I'll have to draw the line at the 555 and scissor-lift.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

> *HARRY304E;380507*]IDK what the union does around here they are closed to all exchept specilal people ..


The sad part is your right about that one.



> Out here i never worked for a shop that supplys cordless drills


So it's a state wide epidemic.:laughing: I'm willing to bet Bob's shop supplies power tools. I get the feeling he works for a first class organization, I mean, he gets paid to post here all day.:laughing::jesterJK Bob)




> the guys allways bring there own and don't have to be asked


Sounds like they're conditioned to be accepting of sh*tty job conditions.



> tyhey take good care of the tools they own


Of course they do. If it get's broke they gotta come up with another weeks salary to buy a new one.




> and i beileve having a set of drill bits is on most of the tool lists anyhow.....


Who's list? Yours. I hope guy's aren't lugging around there own uni-bits and hole saws.



> BTW i supply all the drill bits on my jobs



That's mighty white of ya.:laughing:

Seriously though, your alright.


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## brison1208 (Feb 1, 2011)

The non-union shops that don't supply power tools, or BIG tools are crazy, I know from experience! They send me out to a job that requires a 3" - 4" knock out set, yet they don't want to supply it!! You think I have $1500 - $2000 for that, and you want to pay me crap wages? I have had to LOAN other guys my power tools so many times because they messed up/can't afford one. So now instead of 2 guys getting stuff knocked out quick and making the company money we are costing the company more money! 

Supplying big tools like knock out sets, ladders, power tools, etc just makes since. There are no excuses as to why nothing got done today.

Also jobsite boxes are a big :thumbup::thumbup:. Sure non-union can pay me to make 3-4 trips out to the work van to get all my stuff :no: I rarely see non-union have jobsite boxes on the site. That right there saves the contractor 2 hours a day seeing as it only takes me about 5 mins to grab/put up all my stuff into the job box on site.

Going union was the best thing I did personally.


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## JacksonburgFarmer (Jul 5, 2008)

I have been on both sides of the fence, and now, owning my own shop....here is how we roll.....

I have every cotton picking tool that my guys are gonna need! If I dont, we get it. If it breaks, we fix it. 

I like having tools to do the job. 

In my third year of my appreniceship, (union) I worked for a outfit (again Union) and no joke, I had more tools than they did. Bandsaws, threaders, benders, etc. I was stock piling since I was a first year to start the buisness. 

SLICKVIC>>>>> I guess you were right about supplying tools and taking a guys job.....the above mentioned employer has filed for bankruptcy.....and I cruise on....


MY SHOP is not union, and never will be. My guys make more per hour, have health insurance, and means of retirement.....plus it costs me less....and they dont pay those pesky dues......so what is to loose????


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

JacksonburgFarmer said:


> MY SHOP is not union, and never will be. My guys make more per hour, have health insurance, and means of retirement.....plus it costs me less....and they dont pay those pesky dues......so what is to loose????


Nothing to lose. If you are on par, there is no need to join any organization. You're definitely an exception. :thumbup:

Now the line the hall will feed out in response to that is, 'What happens to your wages, benefits, and retirement, when the owner passes on or sells the company?' I respond to that with, 'When do I get to learn the hard way about what the Book is?'


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

> *JacksonburgFarmer*;380638]I have been on both sides of the fence, and now, owning my own shop....here is how we roll.....
> 
> *I have every cotton picking tool that my guys are gonna need! If I dont, we get it. If it breaks, we fix it. *


Awesome. That's the way it should be and despite what all the whiners and criers complain about here, I'm willing to bet the men treat the tools like they were there own.



> I like having tools to do the job.


So do I. If you didn't you should rethink your commitment to being a contractor in this business.



> In my third year of my appreniceship, (union) I worked for a outfit (again Union) and no joke, I had more tools than they did. Bandsaws, threaders, benders, etc. I was stock piling since I was a first year to start the buisness.
> 
> the above mentioned employer has filed for bankruptcy.....and I cruise on....


Ever stop and think about the correlation between not supplying the tools and going out of business. I saw it here with an out of town contractor. Rolled up with prints and material BUT NO TOOLS and lost his shirt on a big job. Of course he wanted to blame the union. 

The one thing I noticed about E.C.'s is, when they're successful it's all because of THEIR hard work, when they fail, it's everyone else's fault but their own. 
(Quick someone lecture me about personal responsibility:laughing



> MY SHOP is not union, and never will be. My guys make more per hour, have health insurance, and means of retirement.....plus it costs me less....and they dont pay those pesky dues......so what is to loose????


I here this ALL THE TIME but have never, ever, seen it. Every year 100's of guys that have been non-union their whole career walk into my hall looking for a job. Even starting all over again and going through an apprenticeship, knowing that what's waiting for them is 100 times better then what's on the other side.

But then again, not everywhere is Local 98. 

Now if your a PW shop and your guy's are sucking the Davis-Bacon tit, well good for you, and even better for them.:thumbup:



> SLICKVIC>>>>> I guess you were right about supplying tools and taking a guys job.....


Let me guess, reading is not your strong suite. :whistling2:
I never said anything about taking a guys job by bringing tools to the job. I actually think the notion is garbage.

I have a different mindset. I bust my ass and have all the required hand tools and more. I'm never late and I go long stretches with out missing work (I once went two years with out ever missing a single day).

As far as being an electrician, I consider myself pretty good. But I consider my work ethic superior to 99% of the sucka's out there. And for that I aint dragging no stinking power tools to the goddamn job.


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