# Apprentice Sit or Pink?



## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

They have no work.


----------



## Potential11 (Nov 14, 2011)

Celtic said:


> They have no work.


Why not just send them back to hall?


----------



## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

Potential11 said:


> Why not just send them back to hall?


..because they think they might have some work in the not-to-distant future and would like to retain the apprentices they have.


----------



## Potential11 (Nov 14, 2011)

Celtic said:


> ..because they think they might have some work in the not-to-distant future and would like to retain the apprentices they have.


That's not cool.


----------



## Potential11 (Nov 14, 2011)

That's not cool.


----------



## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

Potential11 said:


> That's not cool.



...and if you opt to sit...it may have ramifications at the hall as a "self-furlough" which many locals frown upon...and as you aren't actually layed-off, you might not be eligible for unemployment.

...and if you opt for the pink...it might be considered a "quit" which may have ramifications at the Hall and/or with Unemployment.


----------



## Potential11 (Nov 14, 2011)

Celtic said:


> ...and if you opt to sit...it may have ramifications at the hall as a "self-furlough" which many locals frown upon...and as you aren't actually layed-off, you might not be eligible for unemployment.
> 
> ...and if you opt for the pink...it might be considered a "quit" which may have ramifications at the Hall and/or with Unemployment.


If the shop can't keep their apprentices busy it shouldn't be a quit


----------



## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

Potential11 said:


> If the shop can't keep their apprentices busy it shouldn't be a quit


A shop shouldn't ask their guys to wait for work w/o unemployment either....but it happens.


----------



## MollyHatchet29 (Jan 24, 2012)

Potential11 said:


> If the shop can't keep their apprentices busy it shouldn't be a quit


Either way, you're at the mercy of the shop. If they won't release you, you're kind of stuck in limbo. Rock and a hard place doesn't do this enough justice. In my program, apprentices are not allowed to quit or ask for a layoff without serious consequences. As far as unemployment here goes, I believe in this situation you can file but only as partial, not full. I don't know all of the details regarding either, though; anyone care to elaborate?


----------



## Goochie1 (Nov 25, 2012)

We all have families to feed and most shops understand that. The only reason they want to keep you is that your probably a good worker and dont want to lose you in the soup of other contractors. That and the next time they call for another apprentice theres a chance they may draw someone whos working abilities may not be... yeah. Anyway its selfishness on their part. The thing you need to ask yourself is whether or not a steady unemployment check is better than an uncertain payroll check.


----------



## MollyHatchet29 (Jan 24, 2012)

Goochie1 said:


> The thing you need to ask yourself is whether or not a steady unemployment check is better than an uncertain payroll check.


It's not just that; is it worth your sanity? I'd absolutely lose my mind sitting, waiting and collecting unemployment. It's not even 100% about the money, but self worth and drive. If I'm not working, I stress. Hardcore. I'm talking stray gray hairs, breakouts, insomnia, my body doesn't handle it well ; it may sound crazy but I'm not wired to not work. Electrical or not. Yea, I'm a strange one. 

In regard to the above post, I guess it's great that a shop would like to keep a certain apprentice. Its hard to see it as a compliment, when it seems almost like a punishment. Apprentices will fall behind in hours (which will have to be made up eventually; keeps them cheaper labor perhaps?). Maybe they'll get rusty from sitting for long lengths of time. That's not beneficial to the shop. Plus, the loyalty they once felt towards the contractor or union may diminish. I won't get into the obvious financial woes that would more than likely occur. I can't find many pros to holding an apprentice due to lack of work at one shop when there's other work to be had within the local. Then again, I'm just a friggin' apprentice.


----------



## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

Celtic said:


> ...and if you opt to sit...it may have ramifications at the hall as a "self-furlough" which many locals frown upon...and as you aren't actually layed-off, you might not be eligible for unemployment.
> 
> ..*.and if you opt for the pink...it might be considered a "quit" which may have ramifications at the Hall and/or with Unemployment.*




the company has no work, so there are no ramifications with unemployment, the right choice.


----------



## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

First and foremost...does your Local have a program where Apprentices are always put out to work? 

Secondly, no NECA contractor should be asking an Apprentice to "sit at home". That is a blatant breach of the working rules.

Lastly, you should tell your teacher or Apprentice Director about this immediately.


----------



## MollyHatchet29 (Jan 24, 2012)

360max said:


> the company has no work, so there are no ramifications with unemployment, the right choice.


I ask this in sincerity and am not trying to start an argument but I'm curious to know why you feel unemployment is an acceptable means? I understand there are 'rules' and loyalties, but if there are other reasons that lead you to that conclusion, I'd like to know. There's a certain stigma that accepting unemployment is almost like accepting welfare. Yes, they are TOTALLY different programs but having to accepting either would feel like defeat in my eyes, even if I was 'entitled' to it or not. 
It may be illogical but thats how I was raised. My dad is a successful business owner of 25 years; when times got tough, he didn't accept assistance from anyone but family. We could have qualified; we were poor bastards. He singlehandedly started his own business and eventually bought out his largest competitor and is thriving. Granted, he wasn't bound by bylaws, etc but he fought for a better life and didn't wait for it to find him. He's my damn hero and if I said I didn't respect him for what he did, then I'd be a damn liar.


----------



## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

MH...I feel the same way about UE...however, there are things at play here that could affect this young Apprentices standing in his Local. By his sitting at home...waiting for the contractor to give him a call...that could cause him an enormous amount of animosity from the powers that be. He is an Apprentice...he is learning...and the right thing to do is to notify those same powers that be of his contractors offer to stay at home a few days. Why? Because number 1...a few days could lead into 30 days...number 2...neither you, I, or this young man are going to be invited to his contractors house for dinner anytime soon...therefore...we should be able to agree that his contractor does not in fact have HIS best intentions first in his mind. He is looking out for himself. Should he need to recoup some time as work is slow, he can give the Apprentice a Reduction of Work Force layoff. Should he become busy, he can then make a call to the employment desk requesting him. As long as the Apprentice is not placed immediately, he will go back. However, the point about taking UE is...it's there for when you need it. In a situation like this...remember he's an Apprentice not a JW...there is nothing wrong with registering and collecting it while waiting for the Local to decide what to do. They very well may say...ok...sit at home for a bit...

Stranger things have happened.


----------



## duramaxdarren (Sep 12, 2012)

ooh raa! ya see most ppl today dont have that much integrity or pride anymore and everyone would rather say waaa times are tuff and i dont wanna work hard or take a lesser job or multiple jobs to make ends meet like our parents did nope they cry and fold like lawnchairs and extend the hand for the government handout. now with the current pres we got another 4 yrs of crybabies getting hand outs. there is work out there,problem is ppl dont wanna do it casuse they they're above it


----------



## duramaxdarren (Sep 12, 2012)

all that stuff is the main reason i never went union. and i had multiple ins and oppurtunnities


----------



## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

That's fine DMD...your beliefs are your right and are your own. There are those of us who believe in the greater good of a brotherhood sticking together and following the rules. Just say for a minute this was YOUR kid...in the union...getting an education that is unparalleled and this situation comes up. Say he sits out, comes back to work, sits out again...

Then the union finds out. 

Then the kid is branded for years, if not forever as being a turn coat. 

Especially ..... especially if in his Local...Apprentices are actually immediately sent out to work with no time out. Would you then tell the kid to stay home for a few days...f*ck the union...they don't have to know...? 

When his future could depend on those same guys at the hall LIKING him?

I'm all for your right to say no to unionization...however, when it comes to an Apprentice's livelihood and future being at stake...versus the whim of a contractor who "signed a contract with that union" blatantly breaking the rules for his own benefit....

I'll go with protecting the Apprentice any day of the week.


----------



## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

duramaxdarren said:


> ooh raa! ya see most ppl today dont have that much integrity or pride anymore and everyone would rather say waaa times are tuff and i dont wanna work hard or take a lesser job or multiple jobs to make ends meet like our parents did nope they cry and fold like lawnchairs and extend the hand for the government handout. now with the current pres we got another 4 yrs of crybabies getting hand outs. there is work out there,problem is ppl dont wanna do it casuse they they're above it


What are you talking about here? The kid wants to know if it is OK for his contractor to tell him to stay home because he is slow and does not want to send the kid back to the hall. This has nothing to do with handouts, no one not WANTING to work. It's about his CONTRACTOR not having work...not about the kid not WANTING to work.


----------



## duramaxdarren (Sep 12, 2012)

sorry i was replying to what molly said. i just dont understand the union. if theres no work they lay you off or you sit the hall, i just dont why they have such power over people.


----------



## duramaxdarren (Sep 12, 2012)

ya see the whole branded and turncoat is ridicoulus. sitting out and all that stuff only comes from the union. i dont get the brotherhood thing...everyone is out for themselves. the union isnt what it used to be protecting the rights and safety of the union, its more of a popularity game and a game of money and chess moves to benefit the high ups. like i care who frigging likes me..really, like they are gonna rat me out and do bad things, thats just guys with grudeges and being tuff. work is work, get the job done thats why it takes so long to get jobs done. its just my honest opioin. i didnt grow in with the union in my life and all ive ever seen or heard of is bad so im def byist


----------



## MollyHatchet29 (Jan 24, 2012)

duramaxdarren said:


> ooh raa! ya see most ppl today dont have that much integrity or pride anymore and everyone would rather say waaa times are tuff and i dont wanna work hard or take a lesser job or multiple jobs to make ends meet like our parents did nope they cry and fold like lawnchairs and extend the hand for the government handout. now with the current pres we got another 4 yrs of crybabies getting hand outs. there is work out there,problem is ppl dont wanna do it casuse they they're above it



Hey hey now... Don't make me go get the ball gag! Haha... You know I'm kidding with you.

But in all seriousness, and I know we say this everytime, but let's not go into the downward spiral of non vs union. It never ends well. 

Ice, the first time I ever went through a "layoff" (well, reduction in hours) was when we were cut down to a week on/week off basis. I was on the phone with the JATC before I hit the parking lot asking, "What do I do now? I want to work! Now!" They had me working with a new contractor within 4 days. However, it is my understanding that the company had to agree to lay me off, and they did. They did me a favor. I was happy to be back to working full time and excited to have a new contractor, who I'm still with. I lucked out. When I joined, I wasn't full aware of the accepted downtime. I've worked steady since I was 16; my downtime was the month I had off after returning from Iraq, and the 2 weeks I took off after my daughter was born. It's a bit of a foreign idea for me. Anyway, back to my question; what if the contractor wouldn't have agreed to release me back to the JATC? Who 'owns' the apprentice then? The school, or the contractor? (and don't take that the wrong way, but we are indentured) From what I gathered from the OP, it seems like there was a choice; sit or get a pink slip. If he accepted the slip, he returns to the school, signs the book, eventually goes back to work, etc. If he decides to sit, then it's on him to let the school know, etc. Then what? If the school has work and not enough on the book apprentices to fill the requirement, can they force the contractor (who has you on furlough) to release you? 
I guess the thread just got me thinking about my prior "reduction" and how it was explained to me like I was fortunate that the contractor let me go and where the work was.. and possibly what might have happened if they hadn't. I guess I'd still be theirs until I did my time. (haha) 
Thoughts?


----------



## duramaxdarren (Sep 12, 2012)

your right i get too passionte about this subject and its never ends well. ill keep my thoughts to myself and the other voices in my head


----------



## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

duramaxdarren said:


> ya see the whole branded and turncoat is ridicoulus. sitting out and all that stuff only comes from the union. i dont get the brotherhood thing...everyone is out for themselves. the union isnt what it used to be protecting the rights and safety of the union, its more of a popularity game and a game of money and chess moves to benefit the high ups. like i care who frigging likes me..really, like they are gonna rat me out and do bad things, thats just guys with grudeges and being tuff. work is work, get the job done thats why it takes so long to get jobs done. its just my honest opioin. i didnt grow in with the union in my life and all ive ever seen or heard of is bad so im def byist



I understand your point. You have justification and that's not a lie. However...not all Locals are the same, and not all Members are the same. There's nothing wrong with your thinking, it works for you.

For me...the Brotherhood thing works. It always has. I'm a third generation electrician DMD...my brothers went non union...and don't do nearly as well as the average guys in my shop do. Brotherhood, for me, is about helping out...some guys are down at the hall licking balls...I don't believe in that. I'm an instructor, I believe in teaching the kids everything...the whole picture...not just the rosy painted one that many of us would like to believe. The fact of the matter is that there are more "brothers" out there thinking for themselves...than Brothers who believe and help out when they're needed at the Hall.

Now, back to the Apprentice. Sitting out is nobody's favorite thing to do. The Hall certainly doesn't "want" any single human being to be out of work...ever. As for popularity contests...it's not just in a unionized shop my friend, it's blatant EVERYWHERE. No one ever said to go down to the hall and drop to your knee's kid...open wide...lol. That isn't necessary. There are plenty there doing that already. 

However, as an Apprentice, he is afforded opportunity to make an impression as to his character, his sense of what is right or what is wrong. Notice in my post the very first thing I said was...does your Apprenticeship have a program where you will always be put to work? That is what we do here in Local 3 NYC. Apprentices will always work for the tenure of their Apprenticeship. He leaves that shop because his boss is slow...OK..no big deal...he is cheap labor..he will go out immediately...or at least LONG before a journeyman will. 

It isn't ever about any union...wanting their men to stay laid off. Look, we have a sh*t load of benefits that very few private contractors nationwide can afford. The kid has paid dental, medical, and more...hell he even has a freaking Death Benefit the MINUTE he became an Apprentice. Where the hell else would a kid get that...at 18yrs old or older??

Why would anyone want to screw up a gig like that? Ever?

I'm just saying.


----------



## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

MollyHatchet29 said:


> Hey hey now... Don't make me go get the ball gag! Haha... You know I'm kidding with you.
> 
> But in all seriousness, and I know we say this everytime, but let's not go into the downward spiral of non vs union. It never ends well.
> 
> ...


You have my brain working OT on this Brother...LOL...and I have to be up in 3 hours to proctor an M Division Journeyman Exam! LOL

I'm going to bail out on this one...but...must say...good line about the ball gag...LOL...

Goodnight guys.

Steve


----------



## duramaxdarren (Sep 12, 2012)

thank you. you know your the first union guy ive spoken with that respects other opions lol.


----------



## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

duramaxdarren said:


> your right i get too passionte about this subject and its never ends well. ill keep my thoughts to myself and the other voices in my head


Goodnight to you and those voices! 

LOL you don't have to keep them to yourself. I don't bash anyone who don't bash me! LOL

You're a good guy and you have valid points. Not everything has to boil down to the union/non union thing...there are bigger issues...

Hey...12/21/12 is right around the damn corner!

Gnite!


----------



## sparky970 (Mar 19, 2008)

Celtic said:


> A shop shouldn't ask their guys to wait for work w/o unemployment either....but it happens.


You can put them on standby


----------



## duramaxdarren (Sep 12, 2012)

lol awesome! i got my guns! thanks for being cool. nite dude


----------



## MollyHatchet29 (Jan 24, 2012)

icefalkon said:


> It isn't ever about any union...wanting their men to stay laid off. Look, we have a sh*t load of benefits that very few private contractors nationwide can afford. The kid has paid dental, medical, and more...hell he even has a freaking Death Benefit the MINUTE he became an Apprentice. Where the hell else would a kid get that...at 18yrs old or older??
> 
> Why would anyone want to screw up a gig like that? Ever?
> 
> I'm just saying.


Good points. The local here no longer has dental and medical runs out after three months of not working. Is your locals policy similar? Also, apprentices here aren't required to join or pay monthly dues until they top out, but they take working dues out of our checks. If you choose to join, then you pay both, monthly even if you're not working. I understand the need for this, but if an apprentice isn't working, his choice or otherwise, can't pay monthly dues and gets kicked out of the local, what happens to his other benefits? I'm assuming he'd get them back when he could rejoin? 
I'll give you guys a rest from 20 questions from MH. I just need to write them down and ask my JW. At 3am, I don't think I'd get the instant gratification I seek, though... haha.


----------



## duramaxdarren (Sep 12, 2012)

which begs the question mh why arfe you up lol? im on shift this weekend


----------



## MollyHatchet29 (Jan 24, 2012)

duramaxdarren said:


> which begs the question mh why arfe you up lol? im on shift this weekend


Unwinding from a late hr and a half drive home. I can't hide the fact that I revert back to being a night owl in 0.0472 seconds. Sleep is creeping up, though.. Yawn! Don't fall asleep at the controls..


----------



## duramaxdarren (Sep 12, 2012)

i try not to..coffee and ET helps.. plus i talk on chevelle forums and diesel forums. plus ive watched bad boys 2 like a hundred times on the tv now. watching total recall now


----------



## MollyHatchet29 (Jan 24, 2012)

duramaxdarren said:


> i try not to..coffee and ET helps.. plus i talk on chevelle forums and diesel forums. plus ive watched bad boys 2 like a hundred times on the tv now. watching total recall now



Wait.... and you're getting paid to do this? Mind. Blown. 

Haha... Glad you have some form of entertainment; I think I'd die from boredom if not. Eeek! Or, I mean, woooooo saaaaaahhhh...


----------



## duramaxdarren (Sep 12, 2012)

yup they pay my ass good too lol. when the days get here itll be crazy though...plus you guys all keep my mind sharp arguing about stuff. excatly woo saa. with see you at the party ritchter and the 3 boobed lady


----------



## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

Potential11 said:


> If the shop can't keep their apprentices busy it shouldn't be a quit


It isn't. Call the JATC now.:thumbsup:


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

I can't imagine having an allegiance to anyone keeping me out of work

~CS~


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

duramaxdarren said:


> ooh raa! ya see most ppl today dont have that much integrity or pride anymore and everyone would rather say waaa times are tuff and i dont wanna work hard or take a lesser job or multiple jobs to make ends meet like our parents did nope they cry and fold like lawnchairs and extend the hand for the government handout. now with the current pres we got another 4 yrs of crybabies getting hand outs. there is work out there,problem is ppl dont wanna do it casuse they they're above it


When you make a text post like that it makes me assume you are an idiot.

Spaces, punctuation, capitols are all kind of important. Missing a few is no big deal but put all together like that is another story.


----------



## 347sparky (May 14, 2012)

MollyHatchet29 said:


> Good points. The local here no longer has dental and medical runs out after three months of not working. Is your locals policy similar?


We have a dollar bank on our insurance. A few bucks per hour worked is paid towards insurance and any extra goes into a dollar bank. If you come up short on hours for the month, money from the dollar bank helps pay the premium. If layed off the premium comes from the dollar bank until it runs out. Right now I have a years worth of insurance in the dollar bank, unless the premiums skyrocket.


To the OP, a guy should know how much work his shop has or ask around about jobs coming up. There will always be dead weeks, days, or things beyond the control of the shop like weather, ordered material not showing up, customers not quite ready, ect. Sitting where I'm at is not a big deal because usually it's not for very long (like what I've listed above) but if there is no work in sight a layoff is what they should be giving you.


----------



## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

Here in NYC we have a different system in place. Prior to 2011 you work six months of "hours" you have FULL medical/dental/psychiatric (lol) for a year. After a year you can go on COBRA...but we have a furlough plan whenever unemployment is more than 10%. With that plan, every single contractor has to voluntarily lay off every Basic Workforce Member for 10 minimum to 12 maximum weeks. During that time, the hall assigns jobs to men on the bench 6 month "Job Tickets". You are to be employed by that contractor for 6 months (or longer). That keeps a continuous rotation of men moving on the bench. Of course you have troublemakers who are bench sitters, but as times got worse and worse...those guys got quieter and quieter. Now remember I said 6 months of HOURS...you can be out for say....3 months right...then get called to an "Overtime Job" where the contractor needs men in a hurry and that counts towards 1.5 X your working time. So...imagine you're out for 3 months...you get called to go to the Javits Center/Madison Square Garden/Yankee Stadium...etc...for 3 15hr days...you've just eaten up a lot of your necessary out time. 

In 2011 we voted and approved that each working journeyman donate $1 / week to the Emergency Fund. Under the new plan we now have medical/dental/psychiatric for a FULL YEAR before having to worry about COBRA. You can also get up money for your mortgage, tuition for your kids, etc if you are out of work for more than 6 months.

Where the F else are you going to get full medical for a YEAR if you're out of work for over 6 months?

Lastly...I have to agree with 347Sparky...if you're in business...you shouldn't allow yourself to be surprised by a loss of a job...or three. Well maybe three. But still, that's what Projections are for...I owned my own shop and I never asked any of my 12 guys to sit at home. But then again...I played by our rules...

So...Good morning everyone! LOL


----------



## Potential11 (Nov 14, 2011)

I want to thank everyone for their comments and opinions. Thank you. 

I know that it is not right for the apprentice to sit at home when there are plenty of "Signatory Contractors" in need of apprentices right now in this local. ( I say that out of common sense, and not because its in the rule book. If it is in the rules, where can I find it?) So, why hold apprentices back? That"s wrong on the contractor to ask an apprentice if he wants to sit or get his pink. No matter if the work picture is promising and future work is around the corner. Plain and simple: NO WORK. Pink and reduction in force should be the only option. If they liked the apprentice so much keep him busy because sitting him at home says otherwise. So, UE is not an option because there are plenty of other UNION contractors in need of apprentices and can put them to work ASAP. 

Thanks for the advice to call the coordinator. I will do that first thing Monday in case they try to give me a quit. I made it clear I am not quitting. I have been with this shop longer than 2 years and they should know better. I have worked steady and I always knew that if I was asked to sit or go back to the hall I would choose the latter. I got my opportunity. I am grateful for that. If they tell me that they have somewhere for me to go, work wise, I will not refuse any work. If they say sit at home it means that they have no work, and I will make sure to call the Apprentice Coordinator and get his advice.

Thanks again to the Brothers with great advice.

I know apprentices that have sat for up to 2 months. Why? Some guys in my class have sat as well. They like their shop they say. Their choice. I like my shop too. I know that if they wanted they could put me somewhere else. It's a big shop.


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

> Under the new plan we now have medical/dental/*psychiatric* for a FULL YEAR before having to worry about COBRA


My LOL of the day Icedude

I guess i'd need someone to talk to _eventually_, other than the rest of the apprentices on the bench....

so the obvious Q follows, would there be union shrinks available to perpetuate the delusion?

and do they have union made pharmacuticals?

~CS~


----------



## Potential11 (Nov 14, 2011)

icefalkon said:


> First and foremost...does your Local have a program where Apprentices are always put out to work?
> 
> Secondly, no NECA contractor should be asking an Apprentice to "sit at home". That is a blatant breach of the working rules.
> 
> Lastly, you should tell your teacher or Apprentice Director about this immediately.



Ice, its a walk-through for apprentices in my local. Unfilled calls, you know what I mean. So, apprentices don't sit around to long at the hall. At least not now.

I agree that NO apprentices should be asked to sit on the bench by the NECA contractor. Where in the rules does it say that? And why do they do it a lot of the times? 

I will get a hold of someone Monday. Its too late now and since I opened up the thread. I always say if there is somewhere for me to go I will not refuse work. If there is no work its time to move on.


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

I'd leave the sinking ship behind , were i you Potential

in fact, i'll wager you could be a better electrician, and make better money if you do

~CS~


----------



## uconduit (Jun 6, 2012)

Potential11 said:


> Why would a shop ask apprentices to sit at home or if they want their pink?


Since rules, written or unwritten, may vary between locals: i'd seriously just call your training director and ask him/her.


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

I'd be sending my 'director' a pink slip.....

~CS~


----------



## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

Two in the pink!


----------



## Potential11 (Nov 14, 2011)

347sparky said:


> We have a dollar bank on our insurance. A few bucks per hour worked is paid towards insurance and any extra goes into a dollar bank. If you come up short on hours for the month, money from the dollar bank helps pay the premium. If layed off the premium comes from the dollar bank until it runs out. Right now I have a years worth of insurance in the dollar bank, unless the premiums skyrocket.
> 
> 
> To the OP, a guy should know how much work his shop has or ask around about jobs coming up. There will always be dead weeks, days, or things beyond the control of the shop like weather, ordered material not showing up, customers not quite ready, ect. Sitting where I'm at is not a big deal because usually it's not for very long (like what I've listed above) but if there is no work in sight a layoff is what they should be giving you.



Sitting for apprentices is no problem or JW's? Are you apprentice or JW?


----------



## duramaxdarren (Sep 12, 2012)

Bbq.ease off pal. Its done from my phone at 4am. I have a degree in english lit. I write and type correctly when I need to. Not when talking to you dumbasses


----------



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

See, I've been been bitching about how they just hand out college degrees to anyone, but nobody believed me! :lol:

-John


----------



## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

Call Monday...

Where you find this is NOT in your Working Agreement that is handed out to members. This is in the actual Contract between NECA and your Local. The Apprentice or Employment Director is the one to call.


----------



## Potential11 (Nov 14, 2011)

icefalkon said:


> Call Monday...
> 
> Where you find this is NOT in your Working Agreement that is handed out to members. This is in the actual Contract between NECA and your Local. The Apprentice or Employment Director is the one to call.


Thanks Ice!

The IBEW or NECA one? We have two.


----------



## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

360max said:


> the company has no work, so there are no ramifications with unemployment, the right choice.


Actually, here in New Jersey you file unemployment claims differently as a union worker from a hiring hall. If the local union hall is asked by unemployment if you are working or not, and you do not resign the list, the hall will tell them you are working.

The hiring hall takes the place of the unemployment offices reeducation and referral services, circumventing services will result in penalties. It is basically illegal to collect unemployment and not be on your hiring hall's referral list.

Forget the whole breaking and misusing the hall's referral system, the blatant disregard for following procedures and the stigma of being a selfish person - all that is between the worker and the hall and it's members.


----------



## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

eejack said:


> Actually, here in New Jersey you file unemployment claims differently as a union worker from a hiring hall. If the local union hall is asked by unemployment if you are working or not, and you do not resign the list, the hall will tell them you are working.
> 
> The hiring hall takes the place of the unemployment offices reeducation and referral services, circumventing services will result in penalties. It is basically illegal to collect unemployment and not be on your hiring hall's referral list.
> 
> Forget the whole breaking and misusing the hall's referral system, the blatant disregard for following procedures and the stigma of being a selfish person - all that is between the worker and the hall and it's members.


Same with us here in NY. When you file for unemployment you check off the box that says...are you a member of a union...which one...then...do you have a hiring hall. Bam...done.


----------



## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

Potential11 said:


> Thanks Ice!
> 
> The IBEW or NECA one? We have two.


Explain what you mean. Do you have an Employment Director for NECA and your Local? 

If so, call your Apprentice Director...you should have only one of those. LOL


----------



## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Potential11 said:


> Why would a shop ask apprentices to sit at home or if they want their pink?


To answer your question from a slightly different perspective, before you go off and call your hall....

Sometimes a contractor can feel like they are doing you a favor by giving you a choice. From their point of view, they are good to work for, they feel like they treat you well, they feel like you are doing a good job. They have trained you in their methods and you are familiar with their foremen and they are familiar with you.

They can just lay you off, but since they like you they wanted to give you the opportunity to stay, albeit with an unpaid absence or go back down the hall and resign the list. Maybe they have a lull in their work that they know is very short, or are just waiting for some project to get material delivered.

I realize some of us grumpy old bastards look at this a bad thing - I am personally a union first, contractor second kind of guy. We look at self furloughing ( taking time off of work at the contractor's request without informing the hall ) as a bad thing. It puts you in the awkward position of having to get money while not working, or not earning any money at all.

Some locals will turn a blind eye to such things, and others will pull your card if you get caught. I know one local that pretty much encourages it.

Just keep in mind that whatever you decide to do, do it gently and don't burn any bridges. A simple call to the hall to ask is a lot different than calling the hall and making an accusation.


----------



## Potential11 (Nov 14, 2011)

icefalkon said:


> Explain what you mean. Do you have an Employment Director for NECA and your Local?
> 
> If so, call your Apprentice Director...you should have only one of those. LOL



Yes Ice, We have an IBEW and NECA apprentice coordinators. I think I will call the IBEW apprentice coordinator.


----------



## duramaxdarren (Sep 12, 2012)

Well it was a mental institution that gave me my degree


----------



## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

eejack said:


> To answer your question from a slightly different perspective, before you go off and call your hall....
> 
> Sometimes a contractor can feel like they are doing you a favor by giving you a choice. From their point of view, they are good to work for, they feel like they treat you well, they feel like you are doing a good job. They have trained you in their methods and you are familiar with their foremen and they are familiar with you.
> 
> ...


Bravo! Very well said my friend! 

Listen to him Potential...very good advice here.

BTW..only ever talk to your IBEW Apprentice Coordinator unless directly told otherwise.


----------



## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

duramaxdarren said:


> well it was a mental institution that gave me my degree


i went to that school!


----------



## duramaxdarren (Sep 12, 2012)

Didn't we all? Lol


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)




----------



## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

duramaxdarren said:


> Well it was a mental institution that gave me my degree
> 
> 
> icefalkon said:
> ...



I dropped out and went to PU:










:laughing:


----------



## duramaxdarren (Sep 12, 2012)

Awesome!


----------



## IBEW 164 (Nov 26, 2012)

They have something coming soon. They either want to keep you bc they like you and are good (In that case see if you can work at the shop, organize material, drive a truck etc bc you need to make money), or they wanna keep you bc the hall has no apprentices available, and your cheap whether your good or you suck.

However, self furlough is a BIG NO NO. I wouldnt tell a JW about that one. If you need the money and theres work at the hall, tell em that if ya cant be kept busy, or be compensated for your down time that you would like the lay off slip. Or of the foreman's a ballbag, you dont like the company, they pay late etc etc etc just take the lay off and move on to a real shop.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

duramaxdarren said:


> Bbq.ease off pal. Its done from my phone at 4am. I have a degree in english lit. I write and type correctly when I need to. Not when talking to you dumbasses


Ok so you are the idiot in your avatar. Got it fool.:laughing:


----------



## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

Play me or trade me. Time to move on.


----------



## Potential11 (Nov 14, 2011)

After 6 months time to move on again.


----------



## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

Potential11 said:


> After 6 months time to move on again.


That's what we do. Work ourselves out of a job, then on to the next one.


----------



## Potential11 (Nov 14, 2011)

big2bird said:


> That's what we do. Work ourselves out of a job, then on to the next one.


Yeah, I see. This super asked me if I would sit as well but I took the layoff instead. I thought I did very well there. On to the next.


----------



## Mozzy49 (Feb 21, 2013)

Did read all the replies here but if you're an apprentice would you rather wait on line at the hall or wait a week or 2 with the shop you are with to get back to working? I have heard waiting at the hall is a multi month wait - why would you rather have that?


----------



## Potential11 (Nov 14, 2011)

Mozzy49 said:


> Did read all the replies here but if you're an apprentice would you rather wait on line at the hall or wait a week or 2 with the shop you are with to get back to working? I have heard waiting at the hall is a multi month wait - why would you rather have that?


For apprentices it is not a multi-month wait. Tops is two weeks. When supervision can't give a straight up answer to the wait I'll play my chances at hall and go to work with another signatory EC and give them my best. I'm learning and gaining experience, the better for me and the EC who values a good union wireman apprentice.


----------



## Mozzy49 (Feb 21, 2013)

Potential11 said:


> For apprentices it is not a multi-month wait. Tops is two weeks. When supervision can't give a straight up answer to the wait I'll play my chances at hall and go to work with another signatory EC and give them my best. I'm learning and gaining experience, the better for me and the EC who values a good union wireman apprentice.


 I didn't realize an apprentice would have such a short wait when all the Journeymen I Know dread going back to the hall as they know they will be on Unemployment for at least a few months - if they qualify for unemployment.


----------



## d80hunter (Apr 7, 2013)

Shops will try to furlough journeymen that they want to keep around. It is not the same for apprentices. Who's to say that the contractor, liking the apprentice as a great helper, lays him off anyway after the JW test.

The biggest cure I have seen for sitting apprentices is filing for unemployment. Usually get them back to work.


----------



## Potential11 (Nov 14, 2011)

d80hunter said:


> Shops will try to furlough journeymen that they want to keep around. It is not the same for apprentices. Who's to say that the contractor, liking the apprentice as a great helper, lays him off anyway after the JW test.
> 
> The biggest cure I have seen for sitting apprentices is filing for unemployment. Usually get them back to work.


The above statement doesn't make any sense.


----------



## Mozzy49 (Feb 21, 2013)

I can't understand in today's economy how you can actually want to get laid off. If you are cool with Unemployment and have the time in to get it I guess but where is the promise that it will only be a few weeks?


----------



## ampman (Apr 2, 2009)

the unions vote democratic ,you got what you paid for,you shot your own self in the foot i have no sympathy for out of work union guys , you made you bed now lay in it


----------



## Mozzy49 (Feb 21, 2013)

ampman said:


> the unions vote democratic ,you got what you paid for,you shot your own self in the foot i have no sympathy for out of work union guys , you made you bed now lay in it


 I think the Obama Presidency will effect the union vote as he said a lot of things and did little to nothing to support the unions and maybe went the opposite way. I mean good lord - Obamacare? Did anyone think this would be anything but bad?


----------



## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

ampman said:


> the unions vote democratic ,you got what you paid for,you shot your own self in the foot i have no sympathy for out of work union guys , you made you bed now lay in it


As soon as we can get the gerrymandered congress sorted out, then perhaps we can kick the children out of congress and start acting like adults, then perhaps we can get folks back to work. 

But until then we all get to suffer because of the party of no.


----------



## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Mozzy49 said:


> I think the Obama Presidency will effect the union vote as he said a lot of things and did little to nothing to support the unions and maybe went the opposite way. I mean good lord - Obamacare? Did anyone think this would be anything but bad?


Obama is a good friend of labor.


----------



## Mozzy49 (Feb 21, 2013)

eejack said:


> Obama is a good friend of labor.


Other than just throwing that statement out there - can you offer any explanation? 

He is such a great friend of labor the trades have crumbled under his watch. Instead of trying to fix it he makes things worse by pushing through Obamacare when NOONE wanted it. Only reason he got re-elected is becasue Romney was even more of a nutcase.


----------



## ampman (Apr 2, 2009)

eejack said:


> As soon as we can get the gerrymandered congress sorted out, then perhaps we can kick the children out of congress and start acting like adults, then perhaps we can get folks back to work.
> 
> But until then we all get to suffer because of the party of no.


I like the party of no
No new taxes
No to obamacare
No new spending
No to taking away our second amendment rights


----------



## Mozzy49 (Feb 21, 2013)

ampman said:


> I like the party of no
> No new taxes
> No to obamacare
> No new spending
> No to taking away our second amendment rights


Stop -- there's no reason to inject common sense and logic to the discussion.


----------



## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Mozzy49 said:


> Other than just throwing that statement out there - can you offer any explanation?
> 
> He is such a great friend of labor the trades have crumbled under his watch. Instead of trying to fix it he makes things worse by pushing through Obamacare when NOONE wanted it. Only reason he got re-elected is becasue Romney was even more of a nutcase.


Seriously - this discussion is gonna get locked so let put this out there.

Why do you think Obama is not a friend of labor?
( go...read the talking points...you won't find it...don't bother trying to answer it )

The ACA is good for the country, will be good for the country, will be good for the working and middle classes. The majority of Americans wanted it and still want it, despite Billions of dollars spent trying to get us to believe otherwise.

Romney did not lose, Obama won. Big difference.


----------



## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

ampman said:


> I like the party of no
> No new taxes
> No to obamacare
> No new spending
> No to taking away our second amendment rights


No compromise.
No votes for poor people.
No votes for 'dark' people.
No women's rights.
No sharia law. :laughing:
No jobs legislation
No budget.
No medicare.
No social security
...

all day long if you want.


----------



## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Mozzy49 said:


> Stop -- there's no reason to inject herp and derp to the discussion.


All fixed up there.


----------



## Mozzy49 (Feb 21, 2013)

eejack said:


> If you do not blindly support the democratic party on anything and everything 100% you are un-American and wish for the downfall of society


I think that more accurately describes your political views.


----------



## ampman (Apr 2, 2009)

eejack said:


> No compromise.-- what
> No votes for poor people.---cut taxes jobs follow
> No votes for 'dark' people.---dark people vote for other dark people
> No women's rights.----how many women are in obama's cabniet
> ...


everything came apart in 2007 what happened in 2007


----------



## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

ampman said:


> everything came apart in 2007 what happened in 2007


Yeah, because things were doing so well up to that point - diving tax revenues, a couple of wars with our kids getting killed, oil companies bankrupting the country...:thumbsup:


----------



## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Mozzy49 said:


> I think that more accurately describes your political views.


Actually, that is pretty close - except remove the blindly and substitute democratic party with adults and it is spot on.


----------



## ampman (Apr 2, 2009)

eejack said:


> Yeah, because things were doing so well up to that point - diving tax revenues, a couple of wars with our kids getting killed, oil companies bankrupting the country...:thumbsup:


so lets see we have diving tax revenues, two wars that our kids are still dying ,and oil is about the same price WHAT HAS CHANGED other than we don't have any work oh and the mainstream media will not report it now


----------



## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

ampman said:


> so lets see we have diving tax revenues, two wars that our kids are still dying ,and oil is about the same price WHAT HAS CHANGED other than we don't have any work oh and the mainstream media will not report it now


Despite the teabagger's holding congress hostage the economy is improving, but due to the fiscal cliff "we got 99% of what we wanted" BS we have the sequester and our credit rating went down.

And Fox News is reporting all this stuff ( what...don't you consider them mainstream? )


----------



## ampman (Apr 2, 2009)

eejack said:


> Despite the teabagger's holding congress hostage the economy is improving, but due to the fiscal cliff "we got 99% of what we wanted" BS we have the sequester and our credit rating went down.
> 
> And Fox News is reporting all this stuff ( what...don't you consider them mainstream? )


credit rating went down before sequester and name calling "teabaggers" now who are the children


----------



## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

ampman said:


> credit rating went down before sequester and name calling "teabaggers" now who are the children


credit rating went down when the teabaggers held the country hostage over the debt ceiling. teabaggers call themselves teabaggers, i assume they want to be called that.


----------



## Potential11 (Nov 14, 2011)

The thread started, Apprentice Sit or Pink....It was a question to get an opinion and different perspective on what would enhance an apprentice's knowledge and skill, ultimately becoming an asset to a NECA contractor and the whole IBEW organization. I read a lot of valid reasons why a contractor would sit an apprentice, some selfish one's on the contractor behalf, but when I spoke to my last Superintendent it seemed he actually wanted the apprentice to learn. 

Molly, I don't like getting unemployment just like I don't like not learning because I'm stuck with one contractor doing the same line of work. As of today I've worked with my third union contractor. I'm glad I can help them out. This contractor I'm working for is a small shop compared to the first one and even the second. With this contractor I'm receiving experience and more one on one training. They specialize in lighting controls. Once I'm a JW I will not have the luxury to be out of work for a week ( thus far the longest I was in hall ). Right now I am learning and that's why my brothers fund my education.


----------

