# Romex in attic. .



## 480sparky

I never have, except to keep it away from plate nails.


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## Jmiester

Absolutely!


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## mikey383

It's been over a decade since I have done any residential, but I do remember having to staple in attics.


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## mdnitedrftr

Yes, unless its in an inaccessible place....like behind an air handler or something...


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## Dennis Alwon

We always staple NM cable at least every 4'


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## aftershockews

Dennis Alwon said:


> We always staple NM cable at least every 4'


Here we can only run NM across the joists if it falls within the 2' area where measured from the top of the ceiling joist to the bottom of the roof rafter, and we have to secure every 4'.


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## amishman Elec

Always. Every 4 ft.


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## ponyboy

Stapling romex in an attic is silly


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## jett95

Why would you ever staple in a attic space jus plain dumb


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## Rollie73

I don't know how the rules read in the NEC but our code says we need to _support_ the NM cable every 5'......it says nothing about securing it, so we never staple a cable that is laying on top of the trusses.

In a very similar rule to aftershocks statement, we can only run the wiring over the top of a truss if we have less than 3' of height measured vertically from the ceiling to the underside of the truss. If its higher than that, we must protect the wiring by securing them to runner boards or with a cover of some sort.


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## sbrn33

Rollie73 said:


> I don't know how the rules read in the NEC but our code says we need to _support_ the NM cable every 5'......it says nothing about securing it, so we never staple a cable that is laying on top of the trusses.
> 
> In a very similar rule to aftershocks statement, we can only run the wiring over the top of a truss if we have less than 3' of height measured vertically from the ceiling to the underside of the truss. If its higher than that, we must protect the wiring by securing them to runner boards or with a cover of some sort.


I have never heard of that. an attic is an attic.


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## nrp3

Regardless of whether we argue about the way its done or not, its still interesting to see how different parts of the country or world for that matter, do things. Hard to picture romex on tops of joists around here because of strapping. Most of the time its all on the bottom of the joist or in old work just pulled through the space that strapping allows.


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## sbrn33

nrp3 said:


> Regardless of whether we argue about the way its done or not, its still interesting to see how different parts of the country or world for that matter, do things. Hard to picture romex on tops of joists around here because of strapping. Most of the time its all on the bottom of the joist or in old work just pulled through the space that strapping allows.


I will never understand "strapping". Around here it gets pulled off.


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## nrp3

Makes fishing so much easier, saves a lot of drilling, but you have to pay more attention to round nail ons and cans. Working with what I have been dealt just like everyone else. Three days of nasty attic work made easier pushing a fish rod through the gaps.


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## 480sparky

nrp3 said:


> Makes fishing so much easier, saves a lot of drilling, but you have to pay more attention to round nail ons and cans. Working with what I have been dealt just like everyone else. Three days of nasty attic work made easier pushing a fish rod through the gaps.



That's all fine and dandy. But I'll bet they don't install it just to make it easier for some electurshun to fish wires 50 years from now.


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## nrp3

So true, nobodies going to randomly do it make our life easier at their own expense.


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## B-Nabs

480sparky said:


> That's all fine and dandy. But I'll bet they don't install it just to make it easier for some electurshun to fish wires 50 years from now.


But of course they do! Haven't you heard the joke about how it only takes one electrician to screw in a light bulb: he just holds the bulb and the world revolves around him?


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## nrp3

My egos big and I like it that way...


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## Rollie73

sbrn33 said:


> I have never heard of that. an attic is an attic.


True, remember though.....I fall under the CEC and its a bit different, also.....everything gets strapping around here so most of the NM gets stapled to the underside of the truss between the strapping.


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## nrp3

Strapping in all of Canada or just parts like down here (Northeast mostly)?


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## Indman

Stackers...


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## sbrn33

Rollie73 said:


> True, remember though.....I fall under the CEC and its a bit different, also.....everything gets strapping around here so most of the NM gets stapled to the underside of the truss between the strapping.


I guess I understand. The strapping thing just seems really goofy to me. If you have an attic why not use it.


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## sbrn33

Why would anyone use the strapping. I understand that it makes it easier to wire but that is not a reason. Is there something construction wise that I am missing?


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## chicken steve

Most of the old attic installs speak for themselves. 

I never did like the mess made of wiring after multiple generations of insulators, roofers, ac guys , sparkys and even plumbers do to it .

On a new install we'll find a few pieces of strapping, and run it across the trusses w/stackers above the insulation so a man can either step under or over it. 

~CS~


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## nrp3

I spent all day making sure nothing I put up there could get stepped on. Like you say years from now people will have stepped all over that stuff. Scary.


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## sbrn33

Who walks in an attic?


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## chicken steve

sbrn33 said:


> Why would anyone use the strapping. I understand that it makes it easier to wire but that is not a reason. Is there something construction wise that I am missing?


320.23(A) references to strapping as *guard strips *

~CS~


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## sbrn33

chicken steve said:


> 320.23(A) references to strapping as *guard strips *
> 
> ~CS~


We are not talking about a basement.


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## nrp3

Some of these older homes have huge attics you can walk around in a good portion of it. Romex laid on top of joists without some form of protection is just asking for trouble in these places.


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## sbrn33

nrp3 said:


> Some of these older homes have huge attics you can walk around in a good portion of it. Romex laid on top of joists without some form of protection is just asking for trouble in these places.


If they have stairs I totally understand. It is the "strapping" part under the joists I do not understand.


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## Rollie73

nrp3 said:


> Strapping in all of Canada or just parts like down here (Northeast mostly)?


Its done in _most_ of the country.



sbrn33 said:


> Why would anyone use the strapping. I understand that it makes it easier to wire but that is not a reason. Is there something construction wise that I am missing?


Its certainly not there for us...we know that. I have read and listened to so many "strap/not strap" arguments and its still not clear why we use it.

Some say it strengthens the roof system and some say it doesn't. Others say that drywall isn't strong enough to span 24" centres without the strapping but that is being proven as wrong everyday in areas where they don't strap.

I do know that it can help to _flatten out_ ceilings if you have trusses or joist that are higher than others.....and it does help to deal with truss uplift in areas that have a lot of quick temp changes.

I still don't know who's right:no:


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## nrp3

It doesn't take much traffic to cause damage. This one just has the hole in a closet and I wouldn't treat it any differently. The old heavy metal BX does ok, but some of the romex just thrown around is abused. I have seen this in commercial buildings as well.


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## chicken steve

sbrn33 said:


> We are not talking about a basement.


Neither is that code reference.......




*320.23 * In Accessible Attics. Type AC cables in accessible 
attics or roof spaces shall be installed as specified in 
320.23(A) and (B). 

*(A)* Cables Run Across the Top of Floor Joists. Where 
run across the top of floor joists, or within 2.1 m (7 ft) of 
the floor or floor joists across the face of rafters or studding, 
the *cable shall be protected by guard strips that are at least 
as high as the cable*. Where this space is not accessible by 
permanent stairs or ladders, protection shall only be re-
quired within 1.8 m (6 ft) of the nearest edge of the scuttle 
hole or attic entrance. 

~CS~


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## WIsparky71

nrp3 said:


> I spent all day making sure nothing I put up there could get stepped on. Like you say years from now people will have stepped all over that stuff. Scary.


Yeah I guess the attics I'm referring to would be unusable. The only guy walking up there would be the insulator, and mb some poor guy 20 years from now lol. I don't always like how it looks but we just angle across from point a to b. After the rough in no one sees it. Bidding is tight and thats how we make a buck. Basements we take our time and drill holes and make it look neat.


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## nrp3

Don't take it as a criticism, for all I know, your attics might well be just that unusable. In the case of old work in these places, it isn't going to be pretty, but at least protected. Knowing there's already some wear, I know mine isn't going to fare any better. Often these attics have planking on top, some don't. I'll take a couple of photos to give you an idea of what I'm talking about.


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## WIsparky71

nrp3 said:


> Don't take it as a criticism, for all I know, your attics might well be just that unusable. In the case of old work in these places, it isn't going to be pretty, but at least protected. Knowing there's already some wear, I know mine isn't going to fare any better. Often these attics have planking on top, some don't. I'll take a couple of photos to give you an idea of what I'm talking about.


No offense taken. What im referring too are trusses, angled 2×4s running all over the place. Some of it is even above a vaulted ceiling. I understand if it was an old joist and rafter system, it would be done differently.


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## walkerj

aftershockews said:


> Here we can only run NM across the joists if it falls within the 2' area where measured from the top of the ceiling joist to the bottom of the roof rafter, and we have to secure every 4'.


That's how I was taught to do it


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## MTW

You almost never have cracked seams when drywall is attached to strapping.


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## icdubois

It's not required around here but I would staple Romex away from joints, eves and such to keep the wire from getting pinched.


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## RFguy

Rollie73 said:


> I don't know how the rules read in the NEC but our code says we need to _support_ the NM cable every 5'......it says nothing about securing it, so we never staple a cable that is laying on top of the trusses.


Look at 12-510. It indicates the cable shall be supported by *straps or other devices* located at intervals of not more than 1.5 m throughout the run" I don't think laying it loose across attic joists would meet this. I guess you could argue that the "other device" for support is a floor joist (after all, they didn't use the word "secure").

We wouldn't get away without stapling it here. We staple every 2nd joist.


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## Teaspoon

We always wire nail attic wires in new construction,remodels not so much.
We usually run wires in straight line from panel . sometimes using wire stackers.


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## 99cents

Yeah, we have specific rules up here in the frozen north. For renovation work in loose fill insulation, you're allowed to bury it so nobody notices. That's in Section 13 under "Inspectors never climb a ladder and go into an attic with a flashlight".


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## wendon

WIsparky71 said:


> Does anyone staple their romex running across trusses in the attic? We do 30 homes a year in multiple jurisdictions and have never had to. Until today. New inspector in town. He wants them stapled to the top, so basically every other one. We are always careful around gussets and attic access and such, but have never had a request like this. Technically I don't think he's wrong. Just looking for other people's experiences. Thanks.


Never been a problem. I'd ask for a code reference and, if the inspector doesn't provide it, call the state office. 

334.23 refers you to 320.23 (A)

Unless its accessible by a permanent stair or ladder, keep your wires over 6' away from the access hole and you should be okay. Unless it's a local code.


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## wendon

chicken steve said:


> Neither is that code reference.......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *320.23 *In Accessible Attics. Type AC cables in accessible
> attics or roof spaces shall be installed as specified in
> 320.23(A) and (B).
> 
> *(A)* Cables Run Across the Top of Floor Joists. Where
> run across the top of floor joists, or within 2.1 m (7 ft) of
> the floor or floor joists across the face of rafters or studding,
> the *cable shall be protected by guard strips that are at least
> as high as the cable*. Where this space is not accessible by
> permanent stairs or ladders, protection shall only be re-
> quired within 1.8 m (6 ft) of the nearest edge of the scuttle
> hole or attic entrance.
> 
> ~CS~


I think his installation would fall into the latter part of that article.


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## macmikeman

ponyboy said:


> Stapling romex in an attic is silly
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Stapling romex in attic is NEC. 4-1/2 FT max spacing between secure and supports. I never say an exception mentioning attics exempt.


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## ponyboy

macmikeman said:


> Stapling romex in attic is NEC. 4-1/2 FT max spacing between secure and supports. I never say an exception mentioning attics exempt.



But if the attic trusses are 2' apart I'd say that cable is exceeding the supported every 4' rule


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## WIsparky71

ponyboy said:


> But if the attic trusses are 2' apart I'd say that cable is exceeding the supported every 4' rule
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I don't have the code book right in front of me but it depends how its worded with " securing." I agree the trusses are supporting every 2'.


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## macmikeman

Here fellow usa electricians is your instructions- 334.30 *Securing* and Supporting.
Nonmetallic-sheathed cable shall be supported and *secured* by staples, cable ties, straps, hangers, or* similar fittings* designed and installed so as not to damage the cable, at intervals not exceeding 1.4 m (4½ ft) and within 300 mm (12 in.) of every outlet box, junction box, cabinet, or fitting. Flat cables shall not be stapled on edge.
Sections of cable protected from physical damage by raceway shall not be required to be secured within the raceway.


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## ponyboy

macmikeman said:


> Here fellow usa electricians is your instructions- 334.30 *Securing* and Supporting.
> 
> Nonmetallic-sheathed cable shall be supported and *secured* by staples, cable ties, straps, hangers, or* similar fittings* designed and installed so as not to damage the cable, at intervals not exceeding 1.4 m (4½ ft) and within 300 mm (12 in.) of every outlet box, junction box, cabinet, or fitting. Flat cables shall not be stapled on edge.
> 
> Sections of cable protected from physical damage by raceway shall not be required to be secured within the raceway.



I say it's ambiguous and open to interpretation. I can say for certain that our local inspectors don't require stapling in attics. 


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## macmikeman

If an inspector ''allows'' not stapling romex in attics, but pushes box fill requirements then you should beat him until he cry's and put him in the jobsite dumpster afterwards, because he is not enforcing code properly. :laughing:


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## macmikeman

ponyboy said:


> I say it's ambiguous and open to interpretation. I can say for certain that our local inspectors don't require stapling in attics.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


There is zero ambiguity, and nothing open to interpretation. Secure nm every 4-1/2 feet or less apart. read it.


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## ponyboy

macmikeman said:


> There is zero ambiguity, and nothing open to interpretation. Secure nm every 4-1/2 feet or less apart. read it.



Don't care not doing it. 🏻


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## macmikeman

ponyboy said:


> Don't care not doing it. 🏻
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I don't care either, but both you and your inspector's are hacks. I bet if your inspector saw you stapling two romex's together on edge he would throw a fit, but that is disallowed in the same code article, see what I mean? Beat him and throw him in the dumpster.


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## cabletie

Mike, that seems to be ponyboys answer to most things. I get the feeling he works mostly industrial and does not get inspections and in a state that does not require licenses.


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## ponyboy

cabletie said:


> Mike, that seems to be ponyboys answer to most things. I get the feeling he works mostly industrial and does not get inspections and in a state that does not require licenses.



My state went statewide in their licensing 7 years ago and is quite vigilant in keeping its trade workers qualified. The place I work falls under supervised engineering and you're right we don't invite in inspectors unless it's to look at a new service. If you think those things imply I'm a hack I'm sorry you got that impression but I'd put my work up against anybody's in here. All that being said I still wouldn't bother stapling romex in an attic. Shoot me


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## macmikeman

I'm mostly trying to troll any inspectors around........


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## ponyboy

macmikeman said:


> I'm mostly trying to troll any inspectors around........



Worked for me 


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## Pete m.

macmikeman said:


> I'm mostly trying to troll any inspectors around........


Not falling for it...:no:

Pete


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## cabletie

ponyboy said:


> My state went statewide in their licensing 7 years ago and is quite vigilant in keeping its trade workers qualified. The place I work falls under supervised engineering and you're right we don't invite in inspectors unless it's to look at a new service. If you think those things imply I'm a hack I'm sorry you got that impression but I'd put my work up against anybody's in here. All that being said I still wouldn't bother stapling romex in an attic. Shoot me
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I don't have the impression that you are a hack. You have always came cross as very knowledgeable and well spoken. 

When faced with code fact for some things you usually reply that you don't realy care or you are not going to change the way you do things. That may come from not having inspectors making you change it. 

I am also set in the way I do things, right wrong or indifferent, I just don't come out and say I am not going to change.


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## Rollie73

MTW said:


> You almost never have cracked seams when drywall is attached to strapping.


We get nail pops for sure.....rare on a strapped ceiling but we get them. A for the seams cracking...:no: never.



RFguy said:


> Look at 12-510. It indicates the cable shall be supported by *straps or other devices* located at intervals of not more than 1.5 m throughout the run" I don't think laying it loose across attic joists would meet this. I guess you could argue that the "other device" for support is a floor joist (after all, they didn't use the word "secure").
> 
> We wouldn't get away without stapling it here. We staple every 2nd joist.


12-510 never mentions securing the cable, it only allows for supporting of the cable within 300mm of the box and every 1.5 m thereafter. Since we have a 2x4 ceiling joist every 24".....we certainly meet the 1.5 m requirement. I always loop the cable a bit to allow for the 300mm loop requirements of 12-510 (4) even though it in a ceiling and not a wall and I staple that loop with 300mm of the box. The rest of the cable is _supported_ by the ceiling joists and does NOT need stapling as per the CEC. If your AHJ is requiring different then its a local amendment.

The crux of the discussion is not really about the _securing_ of NM in an attic anyway but more about the protecting of said NM and rule 12-514 is what really applies for those of north of the 49th in this particular discussion.



> *12-514 Protection on joists and rafters*
> (see Appendix G)
> 
> Cables shall not be run on or across
> (a) the upper faces of ceiling joists or the lower faces of rafters in attic or roof spaces, where the vertical distance between the joists and the rafters exceeds 1 m; or​(b) the lower faces of basement joists, unless suitably protected from mechanical injury.
> ​


​​​​
​


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## chicken steve

Rollie73 said:


> The crux of the discussion is not really about the _securing_ of NM in an attic anyway but more about the *protecting *of said NM


_eggg_zactly that Rollie! :thumbsup:

especially when you see these guys on the job>










~C:jester:S~


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## 480sparky

ponyboy said:


> ...... . Shoot me....


Stand still, then!


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## wendon

I'm glad our inspectors aren't trying to enforce this idea............:whistling2:
What a pain for no reason. The staple isn't going to protect the wire.

So if I took my router and made me a 1/16 inch notch in the top of the ceiling joist, could I get by under 334.30 (A) ?


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## 220/221

WIsparky71 said:


> Does anyone staple their romex running across trusses in the attic? .



It is never ever done here.


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## Johnsparks74

I dont understand why its required in a attic of all places...anywhere else I would say YES...every 4 ft!


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## Johnsparks74

*Romex in attic*



WIsparky71 said:


> Does anyone staple their romex running across trusses in the attic? We do 30 homes a year in multiple jurisdictions and have never had to. Until today. New inspector in town. He wants them stapled to the top, so basically every other one. We are always careful around gussets and attic access and such, but have never had a request like this. Technically I don't think he's wrong. Just looking for other people's experiences. Thanks.


"I dont understand why its required in a attic of all places,but anywhere else in the house YES I would recommend every 4 ft"


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## Baker2605

If u want to get real picky. One could argue that the ambient temperature in an attic would have you de-rating your romex!!


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## macmikeman

This thread makes me laugh. You guys call new poster's hacks at the drop of a pin, but when I pointed out NEC code requires stapling or other listed means of securing nm cable every 4.5 feet, you bunch of self righteous hippycrits show that you only follow the parts you like and your lazy inspectors let you get away with. Don't call yourselves electricians around me anymore, your all just first yr apprentices in my book. 







P.S. All week long I have been screwing carlon blue boxes to the sides of studs using *drywall* screws sent thru the insides of boxes as a substitute for the arlington smart boxes nobody is repping around here anymore whilst relocating outlets....:laughing:


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## AllWIRES

macmikeman said:


> This forum makes me laugh. You guys call new poster's hacks at the drop of a pin, you bunch of self righteous hippycrits.


Fixed it for me.... 

Keyboard wizards everywhere.


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