# What's More Important?



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

I liked it when we used to get female apprentices on here bitching about all the men treating them like women. Those were the good old days.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

DenseAsFlux said:


> When would you advise an apprentice to point out something they see if it is against the current code for that region?
> 
> Or would you advise against such actions?


If you feel there is a life safety issue at hand by all means mention it to your j-man in the right manner.

Hey _ _ _ _ they taught us in school that blah blah blah is how this is supposed to be done, why is this done differently?

That type question is why you are out there working with a j-man.



DenseAsFlux said:


> The electrician trade is highly regulated and potentially dangerous. What areas concerning safety are ones that I should consider more important than others? hardhats, ground rod depth, what is easily inspected, operating on live wires I would assume that previous code books still operated with a high degree of safety.
> 
> How would you bring up a possible code violation or safety concern to your superior, if you thought it was something worth bringing to his attention?


Anything that could hurt you or someone else is of utmost concern. Always use and or request PPE for the work you are doing.

Grounds rods are the last thing you should worry about as a newbie.



DenseAsFlux said:


> My questions have nothing to do with any particular concern I witnessed. They are more to do with how to present myself without causing problems.


Nobody should fault you for a question concerning how you are being taught or instructed to do a task.

When we say use your two ears and keep your mouth closed it is in regard to general BS talk and not asking questions about your work and or task at hand.

Healthy questions are a part of learning.

I never put much trust in an apprentice that didn't seem interested in learning.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

BTW @DenseAsFlux where in VA are you located?


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## DenseAsFlux (Jun 26, 2017)

MechanicalDVR said:


> BTW @*DenseAsFlux* where in VA are you located?


Southwestern VA. The largest cities within an hour of me are Roanoke and Blacksburg. I will drive a good ways to a job site. Currently it is an hour and a half commute each way.

Thanks for the advice. I figured looking out for myself with PPE was a good thing. Also sunscreen, a good lunch, plenty of water, etc. Trying to stay healthy and alive are important to being able to finish a job.

I am still so new to the trade that I haven't started my classes yet, or gotten a copy of the NEC. I know from previous life experience that the classroom and the field are two different environments. One thing that is never taught in school is how to relate with people in real life. Taking risks, being responsible, compromising, having integrity, being one of the guys, working hard, but not being a brown noser or door mat. Fitting into a new culture is one of the bigger challenges for me, having your help to point out what is most important is appreciated.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

DenseAsFlux said:


> Southwestern VA. The largest cities within an hour of me are Roanoke and Blacksburg. I will drive a good ways to a job site. Currently it is an hour and a half commute each way.
> 
> Thanks for the advice. I figured looking out for myself with PPE was a good thing. Also sunscreen, a good lunch, plenty of water, etc. Trying to stay healthy and alive are important to being able to finish a job.
> 
> I am still so new to the trade that I haven't started my classes yet, or gotten a copy of the NEC. I know from previous life experience that the classroom and the field are two different environments. One thing that is never taught in school is how to relate with people in real life. Taking risks, being responsible, compromising, having integrity, being one of the guys, working hard, but not being a brown noser or door mat. Fitting into a new culture is one of the bigger challenges for me, having your help to point out what is most important is appreciated.



Being a doormat is an issue sometimes for new guys on a construction site, like it or not there is some hazing.

There are a few threads on here abut that and the issue has mixed reviews.

To me verbal jousting is a part of working with a group of guys no matter where it is bu tit shouldn't get serious or personal.

As for the initial post, I didn't address working live.

As an apprentice there is NO good reason to work on anything live, none of this is worth dying or being injured over.

I live out on the eastern shore and I'm familiar with your area a little.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

DenseAsFlux, the best thing you can do for yourself is to never complain. One of the best compliments you can get is for the guys to say "That guy never complains about anything". 

Ask questions in an innocent way. You are asking to learn, not to point out something that they did wrong, criticize, and definitely not to act like you know more than them. And ask these questions at the right time. Sometimes if the guy you are working with it having a hard time it's best to wait until walking to lunch to ask about something.

Just remember that you are there to learn, keep your ears open. Also remember that none of these guys know everything and many things they say may be incorrect. It's up to you to figure those things out. Come to a forum like this to ask about it. But don't go and shove it in the guy's face that he was wrong, or else he won't want to teach you all the other stuff that he knows and can help you.


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## active1 (Dec 29, 2009)

It's a fine line between asking questions to learn, complaining, judging, looking like you know better, and being a PITA.

Understand that you have a long road ahead to learn. There are times apprentices learn something but they don't completely understand. Causing them to misinterpret the code. Few quick questions may be fine. Otherwise do it on your time. 

Remember one guy that would bring the NEC with him. Before pulling wire he would want to question the conduit size, length, number of conductors, temp, neutrals, derateing, and if it was a hazardous location. Figured I know it's all good but I got maybe 10 minutes show him on paper so he could learn. About an hour later he did the same thing. That's when I blew up on him, told him to drop the code book and put his tools on, do as he's told, and leave the book at home.

Remember another job where an apprentice that thought something was incorrect. After bringing it up and told they were wrong, they went around to the other apprentices and laborers saying my foreman is making me do something wrong. Nobody want a person like that around. In the end it just makes the apprentice look dumb.

The best apprentices were the ones that did what they were told. 

Yes if they think a step is missing or a reminder is fine. Such as if they are told to pull some wire. The apprentice says "do you want me to put those ground bushings on first, remember yesterday we ran out of time and didn't do that". That's awesome.

Or if your foreman says today keep working on that 4/0 like yesterday. You say "you did 2/0 yesterday". Foreman "oh ya, it was Fred doing the 4/0, your right keep working on the 2/0" 

Yes there are people in the trade that cheat and hack things in.
Like you said ground rods, cutting off?
Your not going to change their mind about doing things right.
They probably been doing that from day 1.
In time you'll learn what's right and wrong and hopefully do things the right way.

Operating on live wires. There are a number of factors such as PPE, voltage, amperage, available incident energy, a reason why it can't be shut down.
The trend is nothing energized while work is being done. 
Reality is every day electrician work on live circuits.

Such as service work you may have a can or J-box packed with circuits ans shared neutrals. Nothing labeled with panel circuit, use, and MC cables just disappear in all directions. Even if you trace them, find the panel, find the circuits, it's hard to go to the customer and say we're turning off a bunch of things we don't know what's going to shut down.

Same with troubleshooting. At some point it needs to be energized to check.

I don't understand how you group ground rod death with job site safety like hard hats, unless you think you will fall and be impaled on one. 

To sum it up "how would you bring up code violations", you don't.
Your not hired to look for code violations.


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## DenseAsFlux (Jun 26, 2017)

These are the answers I was hoping to get. Thanks for spending time sharing what you know. I think I can incorporate everything said here into improving my approach to the work and getting along with the people on the job site. 
It was only a few months ago that I finally realized that hazing has a purpose. It is a good way to find out if a person gets along well with others or not. If the person being hazed can take it with a good attitude, then they are probably someone that will be fun to be around in the future. It they get bent out of shape and whine, then they probably won't be someone you'd want on your team. 
I am glad that I can come here to find real answers to my questions. You guys are awesome.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Are you in the IBEW?

As for questioning an installation or safety just use tact and remember with safety you are protecting yourself


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

The typical apprentice is NOT to touch ANY hot wires at all -- until years into his training.

No apprentice is going to have ANY idea about what flies with the AHJ until he's been at it for years.

Even here, at ET, we have a constant stream of electricians// ECs that don't know the demarcation point between the Poco, the NEC, and _OTHER_ over-riding regulations. Yes, there are a TON.

These trigger most of the corn fused posts here at ET.


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## DenseAsFlux (Jun 26, 2017)

I guess as far as I, or any apprentice, is concerned, we are working under the license of the people we are learning from; therefore we should do it exactly as they say, regardless of what we think we may know. Since our bosses have legal responsibility, I'd say they have jurisdiction over what we do. Dealing with power companies, county inspectors, or State code is something I'll focus on more as I climb the ranks towards my Master's license.

I got hired on by an independent contractor, I am not Union. Until being exposed to this trade I have never dealt with anything like the Unions. I do a lot of independent research in my spare time, and have found a lot of good educational materials developed by the union's. Th NJATC or Electrical Training Alliance has published many titles, but trying to get a complete listing of those materials is hard for me. Without membership, I have to really dig to find out what you guys know. It reminds me of trying to learn the secrets of Free Masonry, instead of the Lost Light of the Spirit, I am trying to uncover the Lost Light of Electricity.


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## active1 (Dec 29, 2009)

Amazon and Ebay has a lot of used NJATC books for as low as a few dollars.
You can still learn a lot if the book is a few code cycles old, and the books are pennies on the dollar. There are other good trade book publishers out there. Should just start another topic if you want more on that.

I'm sorry to read your an independent contractor.
In many cases the independent contractor situation is abused.
Seems like that includes your case.
There are criteria to meet the independent contractor standards. 
You can find information searching here, posting the question, searching the IRS, Department of Labor, or just Google it.

To sum it up your company does it to avoid paying unemployment insurance, workers comp / disability insurance, social security, medicare, or any other taxes on you.
You get a full check now, but if the IRS finds out you will be paying for it next year in much higher taxes and possibly penalties. Years later you'll see a gap in your SS earnings. You get laid off you may not get unemployment insurance. Get hurt on the job and it's your problem and bill. 

I would keep looking for another job.


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## DenseAsFlux (Jun 26, 2017)

I probably misused the term independent contractor. I am an apprentice for a private company. I have benefits like disability and life insurance paid for by the company and have taxes taken out by the federal government. Everything is on the up and up as far as I know. They even pay for my classes. I assumed if the company was private and bid on contracts they were an independent contractor. I am just an employee for them.


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## active1 (Dec 29, 2009)

Your company doesn't seem so bad but there are a lot of day to day factors how they treat you also.

Your company would be called an open shop / contractor or non-union shop / contractor.
A union shop would be called an organized shop / contractor.
There are other terms I probably can't think of and some I don't want to post.

An example of a legal subcontractor is:
A construction job was sold & contracted by ABC Carpentry.
ABC Carpentry hires XYZ Electric to do the electrical on the job.
Lots of EC's do this every day. Another name for this is "subs".

Or XYZ Electric is busy and hires Other Electric to do parts of the project.


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## Hand Wired (Jun 23, 2017)

active1 said:


> Amazon and Ebay has a lot of used NJATC books for as low as a few dollars.
> You can still learn a lot if the book is a few code cycles old, and the books are pennies on the dollar. There are other good trade book publishers out there. Should just start another topic if you want more on that.
> 
> I'm sorry to read your an independent contractor.
> ...


That's the exact position I'm in now, and why I'm anxiously waiting on the next letter from the union on when "boot camp" starts. I'm working for a real crook now. I wish I could have left the job months ago, but the application process for the union takes a while, and I have bills to pay.


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