# My flat rate book



## JS_Electric

Where can I get it?


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## Bootss

JS_Electric said:


> Where can I get it
> Our book was made inhouse. Ongoing refinements, improvements have been made to it.
> A company can make thier own, or can subscribe to flat rate book services.
> if you like to crunch numbers make your own, if not subscribe to flat rate book service.
> We spruce up ours with job pics, letters from customers, product upgrade pictures, Whatever else you think of to make the sale.


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## chicken steve

this?

http://electricalflatrate.com/?gclid=CKT31tnr-rACFXERNAod8lLqAA

.1 Digital Home Inspections.
2. Sign invoices on the tablet.
3. Landscape Lighting
4. Reports.
5. Take pictures within the program.
6. Scheduling and Dispatch.
7. Material price updates.
8. Import your existing customers.
9. Easy to use search function.
10. Over 2800 of the most common tasks performed by electricians.
11. Mass e-mail clients.
12. Create mailing labels.
13. No more writing, no more illegible handwriting discrepancies.
14. Customer management
15. Sales management
16. Service agreement management.
17. Customer discounts by a percentage or coupon.
18. Add or delete material in assemblies.
19. The ability to view all material associated with the total estimate and print and make changes before you send it to your supply house or shop.
20. Task prices are derived from your labor rates.
21. Tasks are alphabetized for ease of search.


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## HARRY304E

chicken steve said:


> this?
> 
> http://electricalflatrate.com/?gclid=CKT31tnr-rACFXERNAod8lLqAA
> 
> .1 Digital Home Inspections.
> 2. Sign invoices on the tablet.
> 3. Landscape Lighting
> 4. Reports.
> 5. Take pictures within the program.
> 6. Scheduling and Dispatch.
> 7. Material price updates.
> 8. Import your existing customers.
> 9. Easy to use search function.
> 10. Over 2800 of the most common tasks performed by electricians.
> 11. Mass e-mail clients.
> 12. Create mailing labels.
> 13. No more writing, no more illegible handwriting discrepancies.
> 14. Customer management
> 15. Sales management
> 16. Service agreement management.
> 17. Customer discounts by a percentage or coupon.
> 18. Add or delete material in assemblies.
> 19. The ability to view all material associated with the total estimate and print and make changes before you send it to your supply house or shop.
> 20. Task prices are derived from your labor rates.
> 21. Tasks are alphabetized for ease of search.


^^^^^^^^Right there...:thumbup::thumbup:



JS_Electric said:


> Where can I get it?


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## 007

If you are doing service work without a flatrate you are loosing money and opportunity to increase your tickets,


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## B4T

007 said:


> If you are doing service work without a flatrate you are loosing money and opportunity to increase your tickets,


Every house is different.. every layout is different.. every job is located in a different area.. 

I'm not so sure looking at "notes" to price a residential job is such a good idea..


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## BBQ

B4T said:


> Every house is different.. every layout is different.. every job is located in a different area..
> 
> I'm not so sure looking at "notes" to price a residential job is such a good idea..


Strange, Flyboy is making a killing using a book.


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## 007

B4T said:


> Every house is different.. every layout is different.. every job is located in a different area..
> 
> I'm not so sure looking at "notes" to price a residential job is such a good idea..


Materials don't change nor dose install time to such a great degree that it affects the rate. Plus the labor rate is probably 5 times what T &M is.


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## B4T

BBQ said:


> Strange, Flyboy is making a killing using a book.


He has employees that have no clue on pricing.. so he needs a book..


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## BBQ

B4T said:


> He has employees that have no clue on pricing.. so he needs a book..


If you used his book rates you would make more money.

You do not want to change and that is fine, but putting something down that works very well for many folks is a bit short sighted.


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## chicken steve

007 said:


> Materials don't change nor dose install time to such a great degree that it affects the rate. Plus the labor rate is probably 5 times what T &M is.


First off, FR makes_ bad_ mechanics out of _good_ ones where they get $$$ for doing 10 hrs of _'flat rate'_ work in 8

bears consideration if there's any incentive being proposed to our trade

2nd , i would think any consumer short of a reclusive iconoclast would question quotes varying up to X5

~CS~


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## B4T

BBQ said:


> If you used his book rates you would make more money.
> 
> You do not want to change and that is fine, but putting something down that works very well for many folks is a bit short sighted.


How would I make more money..:blink::blink:

People use me either because I am lowest estimate or they like my sales pitch..

How is a flatrate book going to increase my profits.. :blink::blink:

Most of the time for new customers who cold call you it is all about price..


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## chicken steve

apparently the call volume in larger population pool lends to enough crisis managment where one can spit FR numbers B4T

~CS~


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## BBQ

B4T said:


> How would I make more money..:blink::blink:


Because you would charge more.



> People use me either because I am lowest estimate or they like my sales pitch..


And if you are fine with that don't even worry about Flat rate but don't put it down because it does work.




> How is a flatrate book going to increase my profits.. :blink::blink:
> 
> Most of the time for new customers who cold call you it is all about price..


My understanding of flat rating is you just walk away from those folks, you give the price if they say no you just move on. 

But part of flat rating seems to be serious sales work and that is not me and I don't think it is you.

Lots of money spent on advertising etc. 


My _ONLY_ real point here is you should not knock it even if it is not for you as many people make a good living doing it that way.


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## chicken steve

> Lots of money spent on advertising etc


 
but _few_ adverstising thier FR philosophy......

~CS~


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## B4T

BBQ said:


> My _ONLY_ real point here is you should not knock it even if it is not for you as many people make a good living doing it that way.


This was my original statement.. AKA my opinion..

_"I'm not so sure looking at "notes" to price a residential job is such a good idea.. "_

What works for some won't work for others.. it is all about being flexible and finding your own way.. :thumbsup:


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## 007

chicken steve said:


> First off, FR makes_ bad_ mechanics out of _good_ ones where they get $$$ for doing 10 hrs of _'flat rate'_ work in 8
> 
> bears consideration if there's any incentive being proposed to our trade
> 
> 2nd , i would think any consumer short of a reclusive iconoclast would question quotes varying up to X5
> 
> ~CS~


 I would love to respond to you , I really would but I have no idea what you are saying?
"bears consideration if there's any incentive being proposed to our trade"
Really did you even understand this?


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## 007

chicken steve said:


> but _few_ adverstising thier FR philosophy......
> 
> ~CS~


 We do. Our Flat rate insures the customer knows the price upfront , no surprises at the end of the job.


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## 007

B4T said:


> How would I make more money..:blink::blink:
> 
> People use me either because I am lowest estimate or they like my sales pitch..
> 
> How is a flatrate book going to increase my profits.. :blink::blink:
> 
> Most of the time for new customers who cold call you it is all about price..


 You have a business model based on you being the lowest bidder. All of your work is based on T & M even your bid jobs . Flat rate starts with you calculating what you actually need to cover costs and profits based on only 4 billable hours a day. This is where you see the 250- 300 /hr start to come in.


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## chicken steve

007 said:


> I would love to respond to you , I really would but I have no idea what you are saying?
> "bears consideration if there's any incentive being proposed to our trade"
> Really did you even understand this?


_proposed=_ if electricians on FR are paid like mechanics 007

_incentive=_ $$$$

con_sideration=_ the implications of slam dunk work done already in the mechanical field


~CS~


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## yrman

007 said:


> We do. Our Flat rate insures the customer knows the price upfront , no surprises at the end of the job.


Exactly. We approach the sale differently. Rarher than " our rates are $xxx" and then the customer says "how long will it take?" a flate rate company says " the total for the work is $xxx and it does not matter how long it takes". It does not take a lot of selling skill to do present the price that way. We tell the customer that our prices are by the job so they know exactly what the total will be before we start. You would be surprised. Many people like that because they fear the unknown of t/m. Of course not everyone goes for it. Thats is the same for everyone unless you are getting every job.


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## chicken steve

007 said:


> We do. Our Flat rate insures the customer knows the price upfront , no surprises at the end of the job.


until they find out they could have had it done for _substaintially_ less....

~CS~


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## BBQ

chicken steve said:


> _proposed=_ if electricians on FR are paid like mechanics 007
> 
> _incentive=_ $$$$



We don't really do falt rate most is T&M, however we must admit that T&M gives an _'incentive'_ for both the installer in the field and even the office to encourage running the clock.


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## 007

chicken steve said:


> until they find out they could have had it done for _substaintially_ less....
> 
> ~CS~


 No matter what you charge someone will do it cheaper. Along with flat rate you need guys that understand perception of value.


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## 007

chicken steve said:


> _proposed=_ if electricians on FR are paid like mechanics 007
> 
> _incentive=_ $$$$
> 
> con_sideration=_ the implications of slam dunk work done already in the mechanical field
> 
> 
> ~CS~


 Now put it all together without trying to impress me with your mastery of the english language, in other words dont spend twenty dollars in words to convey five dollars of information.


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## yrman

chicken steve said:


> proposed= if electricians on FR are paid like mechanics 007
> 
> incentive= $$$$
> 
> consideration= the implications of slam dunk work done already in the mechanical field
> 
> ~CS~


Our electricians are paid by the hour at this time, no incentives at all yet (hopefully soon). Once we went through the exercise of listing all the expenses involved in keeping the doors open and the lights on they have no problem at all quoting or estimating our prices. Sometimes they even think we are low. If you think the price is too high you will never get it. They dont think our prices are high because they understand what it costs for our business to stay afloat. Fact is that we are not paid by customers for 8 hours every day. When they see how many costs need to be supported by only the revenue generated by the sales we all make it clicks. It looks like an upside down pyramid. One source if income to support 25 different expenses. That is the reality. However you calculate it makes no difference. If you make enough more than overhead you win however you charge. A highly skilled electrician is penalized for working quickly when paid by t/m vs flat rate.


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## Bootss

we do you mostly service work, a little bit of new construction.
flat rate doesn't necessarily work that well for new construction.
long ago I was trained in flat rate book approach,from t &m.

I think if any service approach is just replace the device,
Or just offer min. service with out some sort of comprehensive,
quality control,etc.Then you rush off to next call,then your 
missing the boat no matter what price method used.


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## 007

we have several bonus programs that allow our techs to earn much more than a base wage.


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## yrman

007 said:


> we have several bonus programs that allow our techs to earn much more than a base wage.


We want to implement incentives but are still not there with our tracking. Will you share how your bonus plans work either here or by pm? We are looking at the best ways to reward guys for efficient quality work


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## 007

Lep said:


> we do you mostly service work, a little bit of new construction.
> flat rate doesn't necessarily work that well for new construction.
> long ago I was trained in flat rate book approach,from t &m.
> 
> I think if any service approach is just replace the device,
> Or just offer min. service with out some sort of comprehensive,
> quality control,etc.Then you rush off to next call,then your
> missing the boat no matter what price method used.


This is where the scary "selling" part comes in. Here is a "typical sale" 
Yousend a tech to hang a ceiling fan flate rate $200.00. As he is un boxing the fan he notices it does not come with a remote. the tech says "you know what I like is a fan remote control Mrs Smith". Mrs Smith that sounds interesting . Tech " I have one in the van (flipping open his flat rate book) and it would only be an additional investment of $75.00" . Mrs smith lets put in the remote. 
The ticket went from 200 to 275 with  no high pressure selling. 

Dont get caught up in the numbers I made them up the point is the Tech can offer things to the customer that are a value added item and price it on the spot.


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## jbrookers

007 said:


> This is where the scary "selling" part comes in. Here is a "typical sale"
> Yousend a tech to hang a ceiling fan flate rate $200.00. As he is un boxing the fan he notices it does not come with a remote. the tech says "you know what I like is a fan remote control Mrs Smith". Mrs Smith that sounds interesting . Tech " I have one in the van (flipping open his flat rate book) and it would only be an additional investment of $75.00" . Mrs smith lets put in the remote.
> The ticket went from 200 to 275 with no high pressure selling.
> 
> Dont get caught up in the numbers I made them up the point is the Tech can offer things to the customer that are a value added item and price it on the spot.


You mean an electrician could be trained to find ways to make a customer happier and spend more money at the same time?


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## 007

yrman said:


> We want to implement incentives but are still not there with our tracking. Will you share how your bonus plans work either here or by pm? We are looking at the best ways to reward guys for efficient quality work


 service agreements are a good incentive plan , bonus for each one sold. Increase in average ticket is another.Sales goals is another. 
Get your tracking down that will help you design a incentive program based on your companys need. Bonus your call taker on the number of calls they convert to service. One of the first incentives we did was with our service agreements.


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## Bootss

007 said:


> This is where the scary "selling" part comes in. Here is a "typical sale"
> Yousend a tech to hang a ceiling fan flate rate $200.00. As he is un boxing the fan he notices it does not come with a remote. the tech says "you know what I like is a fan remote control Mrs Smith". Mrs Smith that sounds interesting . Tech " I have one in the van (flipping open his flat rate book) and it would only be an additional investment of $75.00" . Mrs smith lets put in the remote.
> The ticket went from 200 to 275 with no high pressure selling.
> 
> Dont get caught up in the numbers I made them up the point is the Tech can offer things to the customer that are a value added item and price it on the spot.


we have the same systematic approach to ea. call, no matter what it is.
we go through a to z the same checks, inspections, notations are done the same way each call each call. takes about 20/30 minutes
we get there we give custumer explaination of recommended tasks,from
Book write up work order ,takee care of details start work.


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## 007

jbrookers said:


> You mean an electrician could be trained to find ways to make a customer happier and spend more money at the same time?


 Just pure evil:laughing:


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## Bootss

jbrookers said:


> You mean an electrician could be trained to find ways to make a customer happier and spend more money at the same time?


yes our electricians do that, also an estimator takes on some of the est.
really a home improvement salesman. he works our construction department est.


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## jeffmoss26

Lep said:


> yes are electritions do that, also an estimator takes on some of the est.
> really a home improvement salesman. he works r construction department est.


this is painful to read....


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## 007

jeffmoss26 said:


> this is painful to read....


 I noticed alot of younger guys post like they text.:no:

I think the estimator should take on some of the est.:whistling2:


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## yrman

I just got this in my email and thought it was relevant to this thread. Brian Philips sells a program to help painters work on their businesses instead of in them. Think of how much different electrical is compared to painting. There is so much more to it plus bad electrical will hurt people. Bad paint will just peel off a wall.

Here is the email:
Painting contractors frequently complain about 
customers who focus solely on price, rather than 
value. While it is easy to blame the customer, 
contractors are often the ones at fault.

To put this in context, consider your own buying 
habits. Do you ever buy anything based on price? 
Do you ever shop around for the best deal on a 
spray rig, a ladder, or paint? There is nothing 
necessarily wrong with doing so, and indeed, it 
is often the most rational thing to do.

Suppose you want to buy a Graco 395 airless 
sprayer. Whether you buy the rig from your paint 
dealer or Spray Rigs 'R Us, you will get the very 
same product. Wouldn't you want to get the best 
price possible? When everything is the same,
price is usually the deciding factor. 

The same applies to buying paint jobs. If your 
company and the job you propose look just like 
your competitors, price becomes the deciding
factor. However, if your company and the job 
you propose are better, and you explain the 
benefit of this to the customer, price often 
becomes less important. 

Again, consider your own buying habits. Do 
you ever spend a little more because you know 
that you will get better service or some other
value? I certainly do. I'm willing to spend more 
when I know that I will get more.

The same applies to our customers. They don't 
buy paint jobs everyday. They may not know the 
difference between alkyd and latex. They may
think that eggshell is a color. They may ask, as 
a customer recently did, if I recommend semi-gloss 
or latex. To such people, paint is paint and anyone 
can paint. If you want them to believe differently, 
then you are going to have to educate them. And 
that is where many contractors fall short.

Again, consider your own buying habits. When 
you choose to spend more, it is highly likely that 
you have been educated. Either the salesman spent 
time with you discussing your options, or you've 
had previous experiences with the company, or 
something similar. In any case, you had learned 
why it would serve you to spend more.

The same applies to our customers. If we want 
them to pay a higher price, then we must offer 
them more value, and we must explain/educate
why that value is beneficial. If the customer 
doesn't know the difference between alkyd 
and latex, they certainly aren't going to know 
why you recommend a 100 percent acrylic for 
their exterior.

Certainly, there will always be some customers 
who will always focus on price, no matter what 
you say or do. But many customers want to buy 
value, they just don't know what it consists of. 
It's your job to tell them.
Brian Phillips
Through July 4th we are including Guerrilla Marketing 
for Painting Contractors with our Estimating Paint Jobs 
course.


Out of the Bucket.com, 5933 Bellaire Blvd., Suite 112, Houston, TX 77081, USA


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## electricmanscott

007 said:


> This is where the scary "selling" part comes in. Here is a "typical sale"
> Yousend a tech to hang a ceiling fan flate rate $200.00. As he is un boxing the fan he notices it does not come with a remote. the tech says "you know what I like is a fan remote control Mrs Smith". Mrs Smith that sounds interesting . Tech " I have one in the van (flipping open his flat rate book) and it would only be an additional investment of $75.00" . Mrs smith lets put in the remote.
> The ticket went from 200 to 275 with no high pressure selling.
> 
> Dont get caught up in the numbers I made them up the point is the Tech can offer things to the customer that are a value added item and price it on the spot.


I like the idea, I HATE the wording. I immediately decided no when you said "investment". To me that screams sales pitch.


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## 347sparky

So basically a flat rate is pretty much a bid to the customer.

If the electrician has an eight hour flat rate for a job and gets it done in six does he keep the 2 extra hours on his check? Or the other way, it took him 10 hours because of an unknown problem does he eat the 2 hours or go back to the customer to try to make up for it?


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## 007

electricmanscott said:


> I like the idea, I HATE the wording. I immediately decided no when you said "investment". To me that screams sales pitch.


You can use words you are more familiar with like "cost" but we have found that customers don't respond as well. We had techs who thought like you most came around when they saw the results .


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## electricmanscott

007 said:


> You can use words you are more familiar with like "cost" but we have found that customers don't respond as well. We had techs who thought like you most came around when they saw the results .


Good to know.


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## 007

electricmanscott said:


> Good to know.


And knowing is half the battle :jester:


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## flyboy

BBQ said:


> Strange, Flyboy is making a killing using a book.


Your right, but I just got back from visiting our accounting department to make sure.


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## flyboy

B4T said:


> He has employees that have no clue on pricing.. so he needs a book..


How'd you know?

Actually that not true, I'm the one that has no clue on pricing and that's why we use a book. 

I've been out of the field so long I can't remember how long it takes to do anything. I rely on historical data and my employees input when developing task times and material cost/lists.

Flat rate books bring consistancy, fairness and profitablility to pricing.


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## Bootss

B4T said:


> He has employees that have no clue on pricing.. so he needs a book..


That's why you have a book, no need to worry about figuring out a price.
You look up price sell the job.Offer custumer other sale 
items,or services,upgrades,etc. from the book. Hopefully have some sort of
offer that will benefit customer.


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## Tiger

347sparky said:


> So basically a flat rate is pretty much a bid to the customer.
> 
> If the electrician has an eight hour flat rate for a job and gets it done in six does he keep the 2 extra hours on his check? Or the other way, it took him 10 hours because of an unknown problem does he eat the 2 hours or go back to the customer to try to make up for it?


If the task is clear and defined the quote is not changed. That is the basis of any type of contracting. A quick tech will earn profit for the company and a slow tech will not. 

It is similar to a dealer auto repair. They may quote $100 per hour, but you pay flat-rate book rates. If a mechanic can do the repair faster than the book, the employer is happy. Good mechanics can invoice 10 book-hours of repairs in an 8 hour day. With a substantial material markup the actual shop rate may be $150 per hour.

Customers prefer having a firm quote. Who wants to pay $100 per hour and not know if the invoice will be six hours or ten as in your example? That creates stress where it is not needed.


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## flyboy

B4T said:


> How would I make more money..:blink::blink:..


You can't, its just a scheme for those flat rate companies to make money.



B4T said:


> People use me either because I am lowest estimate or they like my sales pitch....


Mostly because of your lowest price. If they like your sales pitch that means you must be riping them off. Customers should always go for the lowest price. 

What's the difference if they like you or not. It's the lowest price that counts. Right the price on a napkin (a clean one) or the back of your business card (if you waste money on those things) and tell 'em to give you a call if they want the work done. 



B4T said:


> How is a flatrate book going to increase my profits.. :blink::blink:..


It won't, the people on Long Island are way too smart and savy to fall for a price out of a book.



B4T said:


> Most of the time for new customers who cold call you it is all about price..


Right on! I don't care how bad the internet reviews are or how many judgements they have against them, or how many convicted felons work there its the lowest priced guy that gets the job from me.


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## BBQ

flyboy said:


> Your right, but I just got back from visiting our accounting department to make sure.


Your ability to take time off for Paris was a tip off. :laughing:


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## BuzzKill

Same software MacMikeman uses and I trust him for sure.


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## 347sparky

Tiger said:


> If the task is clear and defined the quote is not changed. That is the basis of any type of contracting. A quick tech will earn profit for the company and a slow tech will not.
> 
> It is similar to a dealer auto repair. They may quote $100 per hour, but you pay flat-rate book rates. If a mechanic can do the repair faster than the book, the employer is happy. Good mechanics can invoice 10 book-hours of repairs in an 8 hour day. With a substantial material markup the actual shop rate may be $150 per hour.
> 
> Customers prefer having a firm quote. Who wants to pay $100 per hour and not know if the invoice will be six hours or ten as in your example? That creates stress where it is not needed.


I can see that working on a lot of basic installs. About half of the calls I get sent on is troubleshooting something not working. Can't really flat-rate those calls but my shop is stuck in the T&M world anyway.


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## B4T

flyboy said:


> Right the price on a napkin (a clean one) or the back of your business card (if you waste money on those things) and tell 'em to give you a call if they want the work done.


I run a first class operation.. I got one of them self inking rubber stamps and a blank pad from Office Max.. electric blue color so it looks cool.. :thumbsup:

I stopped writing estimates on the back of 7-11 napkins when they switched to recycled paper.. 

My (9) year old truck still has matching hub caps and I have a pair of magnetic signs that are in (3) different colors.. top shelf all the way..:thumbup:

I use the same rubber stamp for business letterheads when I need to make up something snazzy.. got to impress when writing letters to VIP's.. 

If flat rate pricing out of a book was the ticket to success.. everyone here would be living the good life also..

Truth is what works in one area might not work in another.. there is no one size fits all.. :no:


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## 007

B4T said:


> I run a first class operation.. I got one of them self inking rubber stamps and a blank pad from Office Max.. electric blue color so it looks cool.. :thumbsup:
> 
> I stopped writing estimates on the back of 7-11 napkins when they switched to recycled paper..
> 
> My (9) year old truck still has matching hub caps and I have a pair of magnetic signs that are in (3) different colors.. top shelf all the way..:thumbup:
> 
> I use the same rubber stamp for business letterheads when I need to make up something snazzy.. got to impress when writing letters to VIP's..
> 
> If flat rate pricing out of a book was the ticket to success.. everyone here would be living the good life also..
> 
> Truth is what works in one area might not work in another.. there is no one size fits all.. :no:


You are right just going out and dropping several grand on a flat rate book will not make you more profitable . The book is just a tool and just like a multimeter if you don't understand how to use it you will never reach its full potential. 
Now you are wrong in thinking that what works in one area won't work in another. All you have to do is look at all the AC companies and plumbers who are years ahead of us in using flat rate to built profitable companies. Flat rate is designed for service and very few companies focus on that market which is why you don't see a lot of ECs using it.


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## B4T

007 said:


> You are right just going out and dropping several grand on a flat rate book will not make you more profitable . The book is just a tool and just like a multimeter if you don't understand how to use it you will never reach its full potential.
> Now you are wrong in thinking that what works in one area *won't work* in another. All you have to do is look at all the AC companies and plumbers who are years ahead of us in using flat rate to built profitable companies. Flat rate is designed for service and very few companies focus on that market which is why you don't see a lot of ECs using it.


I said "might not".. that doesn't mean won't work.. :no::no:


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## 007

B4T said:


> I said "might not".. that doesn't mean won't work.. :no::no:


Your picking fly **** out of the pepper , the fact is flat rate will work in any market, no coulda woulda shoulda.


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## B4T

007 said:


> Your picking fly **** out of the pepper , the fact is flat rate will work in any market, no coulda woulda shoulda.


What ever you say..


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## 007

B4T said:


> What ever you say..


Didn't mean to make you mad


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## Celtic

B4T said:


> If flat rate pricing out of a book was the ticket to success.. everyone here would be living the good life also..
> 
> Truth is what works in one area might not work in another.. there is no one size fits all.. :no:


Have you ever tried to FR a job?


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## B4T

007 said:


> Didn't mean to make you mad


You didn't..


----------



## B4T

Celtic said:


> Have you ever tried to FR a job?


Nope and never did T&M either.. I give itemized estimates for the work they want done..

I also do this on site and try to get a YES before I walk out the front door.. :thumbsup:


----------



## 007

BBQ said:


> Your ability to take time off for Paris was a tip off. :laughing:


Paris Hilton ? :whistling2::laughing:


----------



## Bootss

B4T said:


> Nope and never did T&M either.. I give itemized estimates for the work they want done..
> 
> I also do this on site and try to get a YES before I walk out the front door.. :thumbsup:


So you est. labor in your head(or other method) total hrs.
Then write detailed materials list also? Then give sales pitch.Is that correct?
If this is your method,are you satisfied with it?


----------



## btharmy

Lep said:


> So you est. labor in your head(or other method) total hrs.
> Then write detailed materials list also? Then give sales pitch.Is that correct?
> If this is your method,are you satisfied with it?


Isn't that flat rate? Only with a flat rate book or program, all the figuring for materials and labor are figured ahead of time. Then the sales pitch is all you need to worry about.


----------



## flyboy

B4T said:


> Nope and never did T&M either.. I give itemized estimates for the work they want done..


Me too! I list every single piece of material with model and serial numbers. Sometimes I even provide a link to the website or the aisle in Home Depot where the customer can see what I'm supplying.



B4T said:


> I also do this on site and try to get a YES before I walk out the front door.. :thumbsup:


You must be one of those pushy salesman types...


----------



## flyboy

B4T said:


> I run a first class operation.. I got one of them self inking rubber stamps and a blank pad from Office Max.. electric blue color so it looks cool.. :thumbsup:


Outstanding! I'm gonna start saving up for that...



B4T said:


> I stopped writing estimates on the back of 7-11 napkins when they switched to recycled paper..


The secret is to use a Sharpie, but don't tell anyone.



B4T said:


> My (9) year old truck still has matching hub caps and I have a pair of magnetic signs that are in (3) different colors.. top shelf all the way..:thumbup:


You got hub caps?! Man!



B4T said:


> I use the same rubber stamp for business letterheads when I need to make up something snazzy.. got to impress when writing letters to VIP's..


Holy cow your a pretty fart smeller you are! You sure know how to keep that there overhead down.



B4T said:


> If flat rate pricing out of a book was the ticket to success.. everyone here would be living the good life also..


Hee hee you got that right. What a bunch of dummies out there wasting all that money on a stupid book to tell them what to charge. I just give the customer a list of material to go pick up and then charge em' 50 bucks an hour to install it. 

Unless they got a really nice car in the driveway, then I charge them 55 bucks an hour. Sometimes ya can't see the car cause they hide it in the garage. You know how sneaky those freakin' pain in the butt customers can be...hee hee.



B4T said:


> Truth is what works in one area might not work in another.. there is no one size fits all.. :no:


Yup I know what ya mean. I know when I drive my pickup into an area where everyone has one big eye in the middle of their head I'm going to have to change things up a bit. And if there's banjo music plaing in the background you know it's gonna be a rough day.

Boy, don't you just wish everyone saw things like we do B4T?


----------



## 10492

007 said:


> Your picking fly **** out of the pepper , the fact is flat rate will work in any market, no coulda woulda shoulda.


Wrong.


----------



## 19kilosparky984

Dnkldorf said:


> Wrong.


Got anything to back that up?


----------



## Celtic

B4T said:


> Nope and never did T&M either.. I give itemized estimates for the work they want done..
> 
> I also do this on site and try to get a YES before I walk out the front door.. :thumbsup:


If you have never even tried it, how can you be so certain it will not work...ever?


----------



## user4818

Celtic said:


> If you have never even tried it, how can you be so certain it will not work...ever?



Don't even waste your time debating flat rate with B4T. He is locked into his "going rate" of doing things and will never change. You might as well ask BBQ to go work on his tan. :laughing:


----------



## BBQ

Peter D said:


> Don't even waste your time debating flat rate with B4T. He is locked into his "going rate" of doing things *and will never change.*


Nope.:laughing:




> You might as well ask BBQ to go work on his tan. :laughing:


Ah ..... I actually was working on my color last Sunday, did a long bike ride and wore shorts, I was blinding people with my legs. :jester:


----------



## electricmanscott

BBQ said:


> Nope.:laughing:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ah ..... I actually was working on my color last Sunday, did a long bike ride and wore shorts, I was blinding people with my legs. :jester:


What do you have for a bike? Looking to get one for myself and the Mrs. Looking at hybrids.


----------



## user4818

BBQ said:


> Ah ..... I actually was working on my color last Sunday, did a long bike ride and wore shorts, I was blinding people with my legs. :jester:


I have no idea what you mean by that. :whistling2:


----------



## Celtic

Peter D said:


> You might as well ask BBQ to go work on his tan. :laughing:


:laughing:


----------



## BBQ

electricmanscott said:


> What do you have for a bike? Looking to get one for myself and the Mrs. Looking at hybrids.


Its a jack of all trades master of none, street / off road. it is an older Hard rock from Specialized.

This one is pretty close to what I have.










I use it on the street and it is a slug for that but than I remember I am riding it for exercise, not to set any speed records. I am pretty happy, I did 20 hilly miles in about 2 hours with one stop for about 10 minutes.

I know that is nothing compared to your 26 mile marathons but for an old fatty like me it was not bad. 

Is it wrong to ride with a large DD Ice coffee in one hand?


----------



## Celtic

BBQ said:


> Its a jack of all trades master of none, street / off road. it is an older Hard rock from Specialized.



I have something similar...I do go off-road....it absolutely kills my palms, butt [even with a gel seat] and back...thinking of an upgrade to a suspension bike..


----------



## Bulldog1

BBQ said:


> Strange, Flyboy is making a killing using a book.





You don't need a book to make a killing. :no: I don't anyway......:thumbsup:


----------



## Bulldog1

BBQ said:


> Its a jack of all trades master of none, street / off road. it is an older Hard rock from Specialized.
> 
> This one is pretty close to what I have.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I use it on the street and it is a slug for that but than I remember I am riding it for exercise, not to set any speed records. I am pretty happy, I did 20 hilly miles in about 2 hours with one stop for about 10 minutes.
> 
> I know that is nothing compared to your 26 mile marathons but for an old fatty like me it was not bad.
> 
> Is it wrong to ride with a large DD Ice coffee in one hand?



I bought a Mongoose 26" mountain bike off Craigslist for $50.00 last year. I ride about 10 miles a day for exercise. Beats the crap out of being on a treadmill for an hour.


----------



## 007

Bulldog1 said:


> You don't need a book to make a killing. :no: I don't anyway......:thumbsup:


That usually what people who aren't making a killing say


----------



## BBQ

Bulldog1 said:


> You don't need a book to make a killing. :no: I don't anyway......:thumbsup:


But I did not say anyone needed a book, I was disputing B4Ts claim that a book is not a good idea,



> I'm not so sure looking at "notes" to price a residential job is such a good idea..


----------



## Celtic

Bulldog1 said:


> You don't need a book to make a killing. :no: I don't anyway......:thumbsup:


Some don't _think _they do...


...just like some guys think they know all there is to know about electrical installations so why bother with a code book.



*****
I am currently going over my FR options for a purchase probably by months end.


----------



## Bulldog1

007 said:


> That usually what people who aren't making a killing say




I don't need a book.....it's all in my head. People with tiny brains need a book.


----------



## Bulldog1

BBQ said:


> But I did not say anyone needed a book, I was disputing B4Ts claim that a book is not a good idea,



Yea I know.......I just think it's funny how a lot of these guys think....

What I was trying to point out is many swear by a flat rate book. They need it to sell work. We routinely win jobs against flat rate companies. Oh our bids are normally HIGHER than the flat rate guys.....We would be loosing money using one......:whistling2:


----------



## Bulldog1

Celtic said:


> Some don't _think _they do...
> 
> 
> ...just like some guys think they know all there is to know about electrical installations so why bother with a code book.
> 
> 
> 
> *****
> I am currently going over my FR options for a purchase probably by months end.


How do you suppose guys who grew into large profitable electrical contractors did it when no flat rate books existed? Just like those exercise videos on late night tv they will work. But a little brains with hard work can accomplish as much if not more.


----------



## 007

Bulldog1 said:


> Yea I know.......I just think it's funny how a lot of these guys think....
> 
> What I was trying to point out is many swear by a flat rate book. They need it to sell work. We routinely win jobs against flat rate companies. Oh our bids are normally HIGHER than the flat rate guys.....We would be loosing money using one......:whistling2:


Flat rate books are not for bids the are for service


----------



## 007

Bulldog1 said:


> I don't need a book.....it's all in my head. People with tiny brains need a book.


Are you B4T s little brother?


----------



## Chris1971

Bulldog1 said:


> I don't need a book.....it's all in my head. People with tiny brains need a book.




Quick give me a price on a 60 to 80 kw single phase kohler generator install for a single family home.:laughing:


----------



## Celtic

Bulldog1 said:


> I don't need a book.....it's all in my head. People with tiny brains need a book.


Good luck:thumbsup:


----------



## 007

Bulldog1 said:


> How do you suppose guys who grew into large profitable electrical contractors did it when no flat rate books existed? Just like those exercise videos on late night tv they will work. But a little brains with hard work can accomplish as much if not more.


Bids are different from flat rate ,I didn't bid using flat rate of course we don't bid much because our business model is not based on being the lowest bidder. We use flate rate to run a large service company . A one man show with a helper who wire.s houses probably doesn't need a flat rate system.


----------



## BBQ

007 said:


> Are you B4T s little brother?


...........zing...........:laughing:


----------



## Celtic

Bulldog1 said:


> How do you suppose guys who grew into large profitable electrical contractors did it when no flat rate books existed?


They probably spent hours hunched over at a desk, burning the midnight oil, going over historical data to apply to current needs.

They then produced a book, copied it, gave it to their mechanics/j-man - along with the appropriate and adequate training, and sent their men out.

With the burden now out of their heads, they went golfing.


----------



## 007

Flat rate has been around for years it's just not to many ECs were focused on service. AC companies were big on using flat rate as many had a dedicated service dept even plumbers saw the advantage and from these to trades is where electrical flate rate books were developed. aptora has a good system. Flate rate becomes a great tool when you start adding trucks as it allows the guy in the field to price work on the spot this helps increase the average ticket which increases the bottom line.


----------



## macmikeman

Big companies started out when there weren't many other big companies around to compete with. I can tell you this much, it was a whole lot easier to land bigger jobs with lots of profit back in the mid eighties than it is today with all the billybobs electric running around everyplace. Exception being PV sales.

Thats the new wild wild west till saturation.


----------



## Bulldog1

007 said:


> Flat rate books are not for bids the are for service


I know what a flat rate book is. Many companies use flat rate for more than service work here. For example recess cans and service changes.


----------



## Bulldog1

007 said:


> Are you B4T s little brother?



Are you Mr rewires big brother?


----------



## Bulldog1

Chris1971 said:


> Quick give me a price on a 60 to 80 kw single phase kohler generator install for a single family home.:laughing:


I can do that...I'm pricing a 100kw, 45kw and a 20kw now. :thumbsup:


----------



## Bulldog1

Celtic said:


> Good luck:thumbsup:



We have grown every year since I took over. Luck helps but hard work is what pays off in the end.


----------



## Bulldog1

Celtic said:


> They probably spent hours hunched over at a desk, burning the midnight oil, going over historical data to apply to current needs.
> 
> They then produced a book, copied it, gave it to their mechanics/j-man - along with the appropriate and adequate training, and sent their men out.
> 
> With the burden now out of their heads, they went golfing.


I did just that...but I fish I don't golf. Our guys have a book I put together with prices for things but it is different from a flat rate book.


----------



## B4T

Bulldog1 said:


> Are you Mr rewires big brother?


ZING............................:laughing::thumbup::laughing:


----------



## B4T

BBQ said:


> But I did not say anyone needed a book, I was disputing B4Ts claim that a book is not a good idea,


My quote.. _"I'm not so sure looking at "notes" to price a residential job is such a good idea.. "_

BBQ.. nice job of taking my "not so sure" and turning it into "not a good idea".. :no:

I use the "going rate" to price my jobs.. that is the same as "flat rate".. but flexible and I don't have to look at notes to make a sale..

Some of you guys make it sound like using "flat rate pricing" is the only set of keys to being a success.. :no::no::no:

If that was true.. ever "business model" book out there would be saying the same thing.. :thumbsup:


----------



## erics37

B4T said:


> My quote.. _"I'm not so sure looking at "notes" to price a residential job is such a good idea.. "_
> 
> BBQ.. nice job of taking my "not so sure" and turning it into "not a good idea".. :no:
> 
> I use the "going rate" to price my jobs.. that is the same as "flat rate".. but flexible and I don't have to look at notes to make a sale..
> 
> Some of you guys make it sound like using "flat rate pricing" is the only set of keys to being a success.. :no::no::no:
> 
> If that was true.. ever "business model" book out there would be saying the same thing.. :thumbsup:


I'm no expert at running a business, but from what I gather on this site and the internet in general, everything you do is completely backwards. :laughing: But whatever works for you I guess.


----------



## 007

Bulldog1 said:


> Are you Mr rewires big brother?


If he uses flat rate then he is probably a smart guy actually I am a Mr Sparky.


----------



## Chris1971

Wwrp.....
What would rewire post?:laughing::laughing:


----------



## Chris1971

Bulldog1 said:


> I can do that...I'm pricing a 100kw, 45kw and a 20kw now. :thumbsup:



I'm pricing a 60 or 80 kw for a homeowner. Will know more when I do a site visit.


----------



## 007

B4T said:


> My quote.. _"I'm not so sure looking at "notes" to price a residential job is such a good idea.. "_
> 
> BBQ.. nice job of taking my "not so sure" and turning it into "not a good idea".. :no:
> 
> I use the "going rate" to price my jobs.. that is the same as "flat rate".. but flexible and I don't have to look at notes to make a sale..
> 
> Some of you guys make it sound like using "flat rate pricing" is the only set of keys to being a success.. :no::no::no:
> 
> If that was true.. ever "business model" book out there would be saying the same thing.. :thumbsup:


Going rate is not anything like flat rate. Going rate sounds like you are pricing based on what other ECs are charging . If these other ECs are underpriced then so are you. Flat rate is based on what your company needs to stay in business based on its costs and profit margin. You also are basing your price level on only four billable hours a day which is average for a service truck.

Flat rate may not be the only way but it is proving to be one of the most profitable ways to run a service based business or even just a service deptment.


----------



## B4T

erics37 said:


> I'm no expert at running a business, but from what I gather on this site and the internet in general, everything you do is completely backwards. :laughing: But whatever works for you I guess.


Completely back wards compared to what.. :blink::blink:

Then I should of gone belly up long time ago.. I use what is profitable for me.. all that matters.. :thumbsup:

I'm not out to build anything more than a one man shop that makes money and enjoys doing it..


----------



## Bootss

Bulldog1 said:


> I can do that...I'm pricing a 100kw, 45kw and a 20kw now. :thumbsup:


Well if your where all the power outages are ,and specialize in generator
related business. 
You should be able to make a killing for the next few years
slingin generators. No matter if you have flat rate, or bid upside 
down. If you're in the generator business you're in the right business now.


----------



## 007

Chris1971 said:


> Wwrp.....
> What would rewire post?:laughing::laughing:


He would probably make a lot of sense if he follows a flat rate system. :laughing:


----------



## 007

B4T said:


> Completely back wards compared to what.. :blink::blink:
> 
> Then I should of gone belly up long time ago.. I use what is profitable for me.. all that matters.. :thumbsup:
> 
> I'm not out to build anything more than a one man shop that makes money and enjoys doing it..


I could charge twenty bucks an hour and stay in business as a one man shop.


----------



## Chris1971

One size does not fit all. Flat rate pricing may work well for one EC but, might not work for another. I fail to see why some make such an argument to why their way of doing business is better than others.


----------



## B4T

007 said:


> I could charge twenty bucks an hour and stay in business as a one man shop.


I can't see how.. :blink::blink:

But if that is what you want.. and you can make it work.. I wish you luck.. :thumbsup:


----------



## 007

B4T said:


> I can't see how.. :blink::blink:
> 
> But if that is what you want.. and you can make it work.. I wish you luck.. :thumbsup:


Simple, you work out of your house don't advertise and Don't carry insurance. If you have a truck and tools you can live on very little.


----------



## 007

Chris1971 said:


> One size does not fit all. Flat rate pricing may work well for one EC but, might not work for another. I fail to see why some make such an argument to why their way of doing business is better than others.


Any EC doing residential service would greatly benefit from a flat rate system. A flate rate system will work for any EC doing residential service. If your focus is new construction or commercial then you probably don't need a flat rate system.


----------



## B4T

007 said:


> Simple, you work out of your house don't advertise and Don't carry insurance. If you have a truck and tools you can live on very little.


This whole thread is about running a legit business using different pricing structures.. lets leave the "trunk slamming" model out of it..


----------



## 007

B4T said:


> This whole thread is about running a legit business using different pricing structures.. lets leave the "trunk slamming" model out of it..


At what point do you seperate " trunk slammer" from legit business?


----------



## B4T

007 said:


> At what point do you seperate " trunk slammer" from legit business?


Licensed and having all the required insurances makes you legit..

What you do after that is nobody's business except your own.. 

If it works for you.. all that matters.. :thumbsup:


----------



## 007

Most of the one man shops I have spoke with pay themselves out of the profit.


----------



## B4T

007 said:


> Going rate is not anything like flat rate. Going rate sounds like you are pricing based on what other ECs are charging . If these other ECs are underpriced then so are you. Flat rate is based on what your company needs to stay in business based on its costs and profit margin. You also are basing your price level on only four billable hours a day which is average for a service truck.
> 
> Flat rate may not be the only way but it is proving to be one of the most profitable ways to run a service based business or even just a service deptment.


Here is a good definition to read.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_rate

_Flat rate is a pricing scheme whereby the customer pays a fixed price for a service regardless of how long the worker takes to carry out the service. Flat rate manuals are based on timed studies of the typical time taken for each type of service. Flat rate helps provide a uniform pricing menu for service work and helps establish the worth of the performance of a particular job.

The benefit to the customer is that if a worker takes longer than this, the cost does not rise.

The benefit to the worker is that it incentivises the worker to learn how to do the work more efficiently._
It can be difficult to compare prices between hourly-paid and flat-rate services, and this sometimes causes rejection of flat rate shops over hourly ones.

*However, many shops[which?] do not use flat rate manuals and instead set their prices by evaluating what they believe the market will bear.* *(Going Rate)*


----------



## B4T

007 said:


> Most of the one man shops I have spoke with pay themselves out of the profit.


Why does it matter how a one man shop pays himself or his bills.. :blink::blink:

You make it sound like he is doing something wrong or unethetical..

The whole idea of being self employed is the freedom to choose your own path and treat it as you wish.. 

That also means paying the required taxes along the way..


----------



## Shockdoc

There are so many variables in construction, methods and local building codes in this field that I can't see how flat rate pricing could be accurate. Two separate jobs getting the same item. One is a ranch house with an open basement getting a 20 amp circuit. Panel is in basement. The other a split level, panel is in bedroom. How can you price both of these the same ?


----------



## 007

B4T said:


> Here is a good definition to read.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_rate
> 
> _Flat rate is a pricing scheme whereby the customer pays a fixed price for a service regardless of how long the worker takes to carry out the service. Flat rate manuals are based on timed studies of the typical time taken for each type of service. Flat rate helps provide a uniform pricing menu for service work and helps establish the worth of the performance of a particular :laughing:
> 
> The benefit to the customer is that if a worker takes longer than this, the cost does not rise.
> 
> The benefit to the worker is that it incentivises the worker to learn how to do the work more efficiently._
> It can be difficult to compare prices between hourly-paid and flat-rate services, and this sometimes causes rejection of flat rate shops over hourly ones.
> 
> *However, many shops[which?] do not use flat rate manuals and instead set their prices by evaluating what they believe the market will bear.* *(Going Rate)*


Seriously your using wiki as your source:laughing:


----------



## 007

Shockdoc said:


> There are so many variables in construction, methods and local building codes in this field that I can't see how flat rate pricing could be accurate. Two separate jobs getting the same item. One is a ranch house with an open basement getting a 20 amp circuit. Panel is in basement. The other a split level, panel is in bedroom. How can you price both of these the same ?


Ok legit question let me get simplified. Say you charge $100 for the first job and $200 on the second. Flat rate would say charge $150.00 for both jobs.


----------



## B4T

Shockdoc said:


> There are so many variables in construction, methods and local building codes in this field that I can't see how flat rate pricing could be accurate. Two separate jobs getting the same item. One is a ranch house with an open basement getting a 20 amp circuit. Panel is in basement. The other a split level, panel is in bedroom. How can you price both of these the same ?


I raised those facts in post #7.. never did get a valid reply except it works for Flyboy..


----------



## B4T

007 said:


> Seriously your using wiki as your source:laughing:


I didn't have the Mr. Sparky handbook to look for a good definition you would accept..


----------



## 007

B4T said:


> Every house is different.. every layout is different.. every job is located in a different area..
> 
> I'm not so sure looking at "notes" to price a residential job is such a good idea..


Getting to the house is handled by adding a trip charge so location is not a factor. Every house may be different and every layout different but a counter gfi receptacle is the same in both. Most flate rate systems will address the differences a ceiling fan is xx.xx at 8 ft ceiling add xx.xx for 12 , xx.xx for 16 or above. Run 20 amp circuit open wall xx.xx within 10 ft of jb ,add xx.xx per 5 ft
Run 20 amp circuit within 5 ft panel xx.xx add xx.xx per 5 ft.


----------



## 347sparky

Shockdoc said:


> There are so many variables in construction, methods and local building codes in this field that I can't see how flat rate pricing could be accurate. Two separate jobs getting the same item. One is a ranch house with an open basement getting a 20 amp circuit. Panel is in basement. The other a split level, panel is in bedroom. How can you price both of these the same ?


I can see something like changing ballasts in t-12 fixtures to t-8 in an office building. Charge $50 (labor) per ballast, the ladder, tools, and material is already there to do them all. Get 4 done every hour, $200 an hour, $1600 for a day, not including ballast and lamp prices(markup). So flat rate on labor would be at least $1600 for 32 fixtures.


----------



## triden

B4T said:


> I can't see how.. :blink::blink:
> 
> But if that is what you want.. and you can make it work.. I wish you luck.. :thumbsup:


Looks like you already do. Says on your van...$19.95 :laughing:


----------



## B4T

triden said:


> Looks like you already do. Says on your van...$19.95 :laughing:


That truck was not being used for work.. :whistling2::laughing:


----------



## 19kilosparky984

Bulldog1 said:


> We have grown every year since I took over. Luck helps but hard work is what pays off in the end.


Riding my daddies coat tails is what is most important without him i would have nothing



Face the facts loser,god it gets old with you soapbopx daddy issue fools


----------



## B4T

19kilosparky984 said:


> Riding my daddies coat tails is what is most important without him i would have nothing
> Face the facts loser,god it gets old with you soapbopx daddy issue fools


I haven't heard that rant since Rewire relocated to a happy place..


----------



## HARRY304E

Shockdoc said:


> There are so many variables in construction, methods and local building codes in this field that I can't see how flat rate pricing could be accurate. Two separate jobs getting the same item. One is a ranch house with an open basement getting a 20 amp circuit. Panel is in basement. The other a split level, panel is in bedroom. How can you price both of these the same ?


A good flat rate system will take into account all those variables and adjust the prices upwards.


----------



## Bootss

B4T said:


> My quote.. _"I'm not so sure looking at "notes" to price a residential job is such a good idea.. "_
> 
> BBQ.. nice job of taking my "not so sure" and turning it into "not a good idea".. :no:
> 
> I use the "going rate" to price my jobs.. that is the same as "flat rate".. but flexible and I don't have to look at notes to make a sale..
> 
> Some of you guys make it sound like using "flat rate pricing" is the only set of keys to being a success.. :no::no::no:
> 
> If that was true.. ever "business model" book out there would be saying the same thing.. :thumbsup:


What is the going rate these days,in the Big Apple?


----------



## B4T

Lep said:


> What is the going rate these days,in the Big Apple?


No idea.. I only work out on eastern Long Island.. Suffolk County..


----------



## B4T

HARRY304E said:


> A good flat rate system will take into account all those variables and adjust the prices upwards.


So you have to check more notes in front of the customer.. yep.. that looks like you are on top of your game.. :laughing:


----------



## erics37

Shockdoc said:


> There are so many variables in construction, methods and local building codes in this field that I can't see how flat rate pricing could be accurate. Two separate jobs getting the same item. One is a ranch house with an open basement getting a 20 amp circuit. Panel is in basement. The other a split level, panel is in bedroom. How can you price both of these the same ?


I think the idea is, "You win some, you lose some, hopefully you win more than you lose." And you also don't have to waste time & money on free estimates.


----------



## Bootss

B4T said:


> No idea.. I only work out on eastern Long Island.. Suffolk County..


and what's the rate for that area then?


----------



## Shockdoc

But the difference is being overpriced on a competitive bid, if you are charging $300 a circuit and then comes a simple easy house where that circuit will take 15 or 20 minutes you are overpriced and will lose to another bidder that will take it for what it's worth. No two jobs are alike , no two prices can be alike. Maybe ballast replacements, lighting maintanance, etc can be handled this way. How do you flat rate a 3/4 conduit circuit running 200' thru a busy factory?


----------



## Shockdoc

erics37 said:


> I think the idea is, "You win some, you lose some, hopefully you win more than you lose." And you also don't have to waste time & money on free estimates.


In the residential field I always tell the customer the minimum and maximum price that job goes for. If they can answer a few questions such as attic or basement access I can steer them towards the final price. Most of the time I do the work at the time of the estimate.


----------



## B4T

Lep said:


> and what's the rate for that area then?


It depends what the job is and house setup..

The "going rate" is an average of what most EC's would charge for a certain job..

The idea is not to be the lowest bid.. just be in the ball park and sell yourself to the customer..


----------



## Shockdoc

Same with service upgrades, I have three packages starting at three different prices, economy bare essentials, All aluminum SE or PVC my choice, bargain panel . All Copper in PVC, bargain panel. All Copper in PVC, SQ D panel. And the price could go up depending on length of riser run, GEC run, over 20 existing circuits. There are too many variables for me to give a flat price. Let's say now the customer or local AHJ wants RMC for the service.


----------



## HARRY304E

B4T said:


> So you have to check more notes in front of the customer.. yep.. that looks like you are on top of your game.. :laughing:


I use the off the top of my head method..:laughing:


----------



## Chris1971

HARRY304E said:


> I use the off the top of my head method..:laughing:


Before or after you drink a twelve pack of forty's?:laughing:


----------



## B4T

erics37 said:


> I think the idea is, "You win some, you lose some, hopefully you win more than you lose." And you also don't have to waste time & money on free estimates.


You always have to waste time on free estimates... that will never change.. just the way EC's do business..

But that "free estimate" still costs you on average (3) hours of your time that has to be added to the cost of doing business in the big picture..


----------



## B4T

HARRY304E said:


> I use the off the top of my head method..:laughing:


Harry.. if that works and lands you the job.. :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## 007

Shockdoc said:


> But the difference is being overpriced on a competitive bid, if you are charging $300 a circuit and then comes a simple easy house where that circuit will take 15 or 20 minutes you are overpriced and will lose to another bidder that will take it for what it's worth. No two jobs are alike , no two prices can be alike. Maybe ballast replacements, lighting maintanance, etc can be handled this way. How do you flat rate a 3/4 conduit circuit running 200' thru a busy factory?



FLAT RATE WAS DESIGNED FOR RESIDENTIAL

If you are competitively bidding adding a circuit you either need to improve your call conversion or stop working for price shoppers. 
Our call taker has one goal and that is to convert every call into scheduled service. She takes the customer from asking for a free estimate to saying OK to sending a service truck. She has scripted responses that we practice during weekly training.


----------



## yrman

B4T said:


> You always have to waste time on free estimates... that will never change.. just the way EC's do business..
> 
> But that "free estimate" still costs you on average (3) hours of your time that has to be added to the cost of doing business in the big picture..


Lots of people charge a trip charge to go out and do estimates. It takes a lot of time, so why would you want to be one of 10 guys a cheapie is calling looking for as many guys willing to donate their time for free estimates so they can hire the cheapest one? We find that if someone is willing to pay a nominal fee which will be applied to the work if we get it, we screen out the tore kickers and cheapskates. Sure we waive it sometimes but never is a caller leads with "i want a free estimate". Its a tip off that they have been calling around and are only looking for the cheapest price. 8 out of 10 agree to the trip charge. 

Then what do you do with the ones who want a free estimate to fix their non working outlet? (my personal favorites).


----------



## yrman

007 said:


> FLAT RATE WAS DESIGNED FOR RESIDENTIAL
> 
> If you are competitively bidding adding a circuit you either need to improve your call conversion or stop working for price shoppers.
> Our call taker has one goal and that is to convert every call into scheduled service. She takes the customer from asking for a free estimate to saying OK to sending a service truck. She has scripted responses that we practice during weekly training.


Are you charging a dispatch fee?


----------



## Bootss

Shockdoc said:


> Same with service upgrades, I have three packages starting at three different prices, economy bare essentials, All aluminum SE or PVC my choice, bargain panel . All Copper in PVC, bargain panel. All Copper in PVC, SQ D panel. And the price could go up depending on length of riser run, GEC run, over 20 existing circuits. There are too many variables for me to give a flat price. Let's say now the customer or local AHJ wants RMC for the service.


That sounds like a good approach.It sounds to me you give
lump sum, or flat rate but do not like using a book.Do you show pics..
of your previous work,at time of sales pitch or no?


----------



## 007

yrman said:


> Are you charging a dispatch fee?


We get a $72.00 service charge that is secured by a CC before dispatch.


----------



## B4T

yrman said:


> Lots of people charge a trip charge to go out and do estimates.


Not around here.. you will get.. "let me call you back".. everybody gives free estimates for electrical work..


----------



## B4T

007 said:


> We get a $72.00 service charge that is secured by a CC before dispatch.


Another page out of the Rewire Handbook.. :laughing:

It you can get it.. more power to you. :thumbsup:


----------



## Bootss

B4T said:


> You always have to waste time on free estimates... that will never change.. just the way EC's do business..
> 
> But that "free estimate" still costs you on average (3) hours of your time that has to be added to the cost of doing business in the big picture..


I think free est. should be outlawed.I.M.O.


----------



## 007

B4T said:


> Not around here.. you will get.. "let me call you back".. everybody gives free estimates for electrical work..


Are you certain? We do secret shopper in our markets and were surprised to find several that we're charging a nominal dispatch fee it ranged from$25 - $50 dollars.


----------



## B4T

Lep said:


> I think free est. should be outlawed.I.M.O.


I agree.. but the horse is out of the barn and he's not going back anytime soon..


----------



## B4T

007 said:


> Are you certain? We do secret shopper in our markets and were surprised to find several that we're charging a nominal dispatch fee it ranged from$25 - $50 dollars.


All I have to do is look at Yellow Book or Yellow Pages and it is there in big bold print.. mostly the first line of advertising..


----------



## 007

B4T said:


> Another page out of the Rewire Handbook.. :laughing:
> 
> It you can get it.. more power to you. :thumbsup:


Yes we get it. Why woul you not charge a dispatch fee? It costs money to get our rolling warehouse to the customer. 
Was Mr Rewire actually a Mr Sparky?


----------



## HARRY304E

Chris1971 said:


> Before or after you drink a twelve pack of forty's?:laughing:


Before Because I just don't want to plug a customers toilet....:laughing::laughing:


----------



## 007

B4T said:


> All I have to do is look at Yellow Book or Yellow Pages and it is there in big bold print.. mostly the first line of advertising..


So you see it in some adds , I would bet somebody has smartened up and charges for estimates.


----------



## yrman

B4T said:


> Not around here.. you will get.. "let me call you back".. everybody gives free estimates for electrical work..


We do get a lot of that but a surprising number are ok and agree. We always explain that we will waive it or apply it to the work. I hate running after work we probably wont get anyway, better to screen them out up front. Plenty of people will go out for free. But lots of companies who advertise free estimates and free service calls have small print disclaimers that say "with repair".

I wonder if they all really do go out for free. We called some who advertise that around here and it was eye opening. Might be worth a few phone calls to spy them out if you think everyone in your area does. You might be surprised, but then again you may be 100% right too.

Will you take the time to drive out to give a free estimate for a small job like adding an outlet? How do you handle srvice calls? Do you charge for diagnostic or do diagnostic for free then give an estimate for repair?

I am always curious about the different ways people make money. We just radically changed how we charge for service calls yesterday.


----------



## yrman

007 said:


> We get a $72.00 service charge that is secured by a CC before dispatch.


Do you apply it to the work or is that on top?


----------



## Shockdoc

Lep said:


> That sounds like a good approach.It sounds to me you give
> lump sum, or flat rate but do not like using a book.Do you show pics..
> of your previous work,at time of sales pitch or no?


I don't like using the phrase "flat" cause that's what it is, I prefer "starting at" cause until I set foot in that home, God only knows whats going on there and all the customer would have in his/her mind is my flat price. I've often e mailed some potential clients pics of before and after, many new callers are referals from other contractors and clients.


----------



## B4T

007 said:


> Yes we get it. Why woul you not charge a dispatch fee?


Because people would not pay it.. why pay for something they can get for free..

I tied it when I ran a Yellow Page ad.. 20+ yerars ago.. for $300.00 a month.. total disaster..


----------



## yrman

B4T said:


> All I have to do is look at Yellow Book or Yellow Pages and it is there in big bold print.. mostly the first line of advertising..


Yeah but then there is usually a line that says "with repair". Be interesting to make some undercover calls. We did and it was VERY eye opening.


----------



## 007

B4T said:


> Because people would not pay it.. why pay for something they can get for free..
> 
> I tied it when I ran a Yellow Page ad.. 20+ yerars ago.. for $300.00 a month.. total disaster..


You need better class of customer. :laughing: why would your customers expect you to come to their house for free?


----------



## 007

yrman said:


> Yeah but then there is usually a line that says "with repair". Be interesting to make some undercover calls. We did and it was VERY eye opening.


Secret shopper is an eye opener we do it about every six months


----------



## Bootss

Shockdoc said:


> I don't like using the phrase "flat" cause that's what it is, I prefer "starting at" cause until I set foot in that home, God only knows whats going on there and all the customer would have in his/her mind is my flat price. I've often e mailed some potential clients pics of before and after, many new callers are referals from other contractors and clients.


Our co. isn't afraid to use whatever sales tool, flat rate book,pics.
,stand on ou r head.The " circus comes to town" when we show up at a customers house.
We roll out the red carpet so to speak.We want customer to be as satisfied as possible.
I don't know guess it was the way I was trained long time ago


----------



## Shockdoc

007 said:


> You need better class of customer. :laughing: why would your customers expect you to come to their house for free?


Long Island has a very high population of tire kickers , Suffolk County Consumer affairs is handing out licenses like candy these days, unlike Nassau county and the lock out network . There is fierce competition working dirt cheap after giving a free estimate. I have lowballed projects such as a funeral chapel/ home and have been underbid by 20k in Suffolk. The only way to remain ahead is working more efficiently, using a crapload of aluminum wherever possible. I started using Al for the top half of services back in 04'. Guys were calling me a hack, now they are doing it.


----------



## Shockdoc

Lep said:


> Our co. isn't afraid to use whatever sales tool, flat rate book,pics.
> ,stand on ou r head.The " circus comes to town" when we show up at a customers house.
> We roll out the red carpet so to speak.We want customer to be as satisfied as possible.
> I don't know guess it was the way I was trained long time ago


I blind them with science:jester:


----------



## Bootss

Shockdoc said:


> Long Island has a very high population of tire kickers , Suffolk County Consumer affairs is handing out licenses like candy these days, unlike Nassau county and the lock out network . There is fierce competition working dirt cheap after giving a free estimate. I have lowballed projects such as a funeral chapel/ home and have been underbid by 20k in Suffolk. The only way to remain ahead is working more efficiently, using a crapload of aluminum wherever possible. I started using Al for the top half of services back in 04'. Guys were calling me a hack, now they are doing it.


You have alot of illegals flood in the area?Almost all of
new res.work is dominated by illegals, in entire bay area .


----------



## Shockdoc

Lep said:


> You have alot of illegals flood in the area?Almost all of
> new res.work is dominated by illegals, in entire bay area .


Yes we do, some living 30 to a house in some nieghborhoods. Most of the trades has gone foreign or illegal . I hire illegals for back breaking work , we tried local youths but everytime they failed miserably. I came across a panel in a new home labeled in spanish last week.


----------



## 10492

007 said:


> It costs money to get our rolling warehouse to the customer.


Straight from the ESI handbook of Bullchit.





This guy is a troll.


----------



## yrman

Dnkldorf said:


> Straight from the ESI handbook of Bullchit.
> 
> This guy is a troll.


No he's not. Read his posts. He is a Mr Sparky franchise and has been participating in a normal way. Why does using terminology from ESI make him a troll? Just because you dont like the organization?
The beauty of this forum is sharing all our different perspectives.


----------



## Celtic

B4T said:


> Because people would not pay it.. why pay for something they can get for free..


You do realize that the only people getting a free estimate are the ones NOT using your services. 
The people who do use your services are paying for the freeloaders estimate.
That doesn't seem like a thing I would want to do to my healthy paying customers and clients.


----------



## Celtic

Bulldog1 said:


> I don't need a book.....it's all in my head. *People with tiny brains need a book.*
> 
> 
> 
> Celtic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some don't think they do...
> 
> 
> ...just like some guys think they know all there is to know about electrical installations so why bother with a code book.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bulldog1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> How do you suppose guys who grew into large profitable electrical contractors did it when no flat rate books existed? Just like those exercise videos on late night tv they will work. But a little brains with hard work can accomplish as much if not more.
> 
> 
> 
> Celtic said:
> 
> 
> 
> They probably spent hours hunched over at a desk, burning the midnight oil, going over historical data to apply to current needs.
> 
> They then produced a book, copied it, gave it to their mechanics/j-man - along with the appropriate and adequate training, and sent their men out.
> 
> With the burden now out of their heads, they went golfing.
> 
> 
> 
> Bulldog1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I did just that...but I fish I don't golf. *Our guys have a book I put together* with prices for things but it is different from a flat rate book.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

So who has the tiny brains?
You, your men, both you and your men?

...or were you just puffing your chest out ?


----------



## B4T

Celtic said:


> You do realize that the only people getting a free estimate are the ones NOT using your services.
> The people who do use your services are paying for the freeloaders estimate.
> That doesn't seem like a thing I would want to do to my healthy paying customers and clients.



I get about 80% of the jobs I bid on.. so your first statement is not true..:no::no:

Th other 20% either found someone cheaper or decided not to do the work..


----------



## user4818

B4T said:


> I get about 80% of the jobs I bid on.. so your first statement is not true..:no::no:
> 
> Th other 20% either found someone cheaper or decided not to do the work..


If you get 80% of your jobs you bid, that means you are too low on price.


----------



## B4T

Peter D said:


> If you get 80% of your jobs you bid, that means you are too low on price.


No.. no necessarily true.. :no::no::no:

Most of my calls are from repeat customers.. recommendations.. or they saw my truck around town..

I am getting my price and making money.. all I care about.. :thumbsup:


----------



## yrman

B4T said:


> I get about 80% of the jobs I bid on.. so your first statement is not true..:no::no:
> 
> Th other 20% either found someone cheaper or decided not to do the work..


Cool. If you close that high of a percentage you must do a good job on the sales side. What would happen if you raised your prices by 10%. I bet no one would even notice.


----------



## Celtic

Celtic said:


> You do realize that the only people getting a free estimate are the ones NOT using your services.
> The people who do use your services are paying for the freeloaders estimate.
> That doesn't seem like a thing I would want to do to my healthy paying customers and clients.





B4T said:


> I get about 80% of the jobs I bid on.. so your first statement is not true..:no::no:
> 
> Th other 20% either found someone cheaper or decided not to do the work..


:blink:
How is not true?
80% of your clients are paying a premium for the 20% tire kickers.


----------



## B4T

yrman said:


> Cool. If you close that high of a percentage you must do a good job on the sales side. What would happen if you raised your prices by 10%. I bet no one would even notice.


Maybe not..


----------



## B4T

Celtic said:


> :blink:
> How is not true?
> 80% of your clients are paying a premium for the 20% tire kickers.


You alway have tire kickers.. just another part of the business you have to accept.. 

Even a tire kicker has come back years later wanting work done..


----------



## Celtic

B4T said:


> You alway have tire kickers.. just another part of the business you have to accept..
> 
> Even a tire kicker has come back years later wanting work done..


You don't have to accept that there will always be tire kickers being a part of doing business ~ you can weed them out and do your paying customers a favor. 
Let the other EC/s play games with the tire kickers ~ isn't your time valuable?

Why not have the tire kickers actually pay for the work you are performing for them instead of forcing your paying customers to pick up the tab?


----------



## B4T

Celtic said:


> You don't have to accept that there will always be tire kickers being a part of doing business ~ you can weed them out and do your paying customers a favor.
> Let the other EC/s play games with the tire kickers ~ isn't your time valuable?
> 
> Why not have the tire kickers actually pay for the work you are performing for them instead of forcing your paying customers to pick up the tab?


I go on every estimate with the intention of making a sale.. you never know how things will turn out until you meet with the customer and get a read of what they want..

You don't have to agree with me and it won't hurt my feelings.. :thumbup:


----------



## Celtic

B4T said:


> I go on every estimate with the intention of making a sale.. you never know how things will turn out until you meet with the customer and get a read of what they want..


Everyone has the_ intention _of making a sale each and every time...but the times you do not close the deal only increases the cost for the other clients.
You can actually INCREASE your closing ratio by removing the one obstacle in your path ~ the tire kicker.
Even if you do not close the deal, you have not wasted your time by simply charging everyone for a estimate. 
Those that chose not to use your services have paid you for your time thus far.
Those that use your services, have the fee either waived or applied to the cost of the service.

You win every time.





B4T said:


> You don't have to agree with me and it won't hurt my feelings.. :thumbup:


Ok...:whistling2:


----------



## 10492

yrman said:


> Just because you dont like the organization?


I question their motives. 



yrman said:


> The beauty of this forum is sharing all our different perspectives.


Yeah, that's why I like it. 

Here's my point. You already account for your expenses of sending a tech somewhere to do something. It's already built into your hourly rate. If you built into your billable rate that your techs average 4 billable hrs a day, and 4 unbillable, for travel time, parts runs, oil changes, gas fill-up...and all that other stuff.....why are you saying it cost you money?

If you did it right, you could send your secretary to go do estimates in the company truck, and it wouldn't cost you another dime. It's already accounted for in your techs billable hour.

His reasoning for charging a $72 service call is flawed.


----------



## 007

Dnkldorf said:


> I question their motives.


my motive is to operate a profitable company that allows me to be on vacation and it still operates


> Yeah, that's why I like it.
> 
> Here's my point. You already account for your expenses of sending a tech somewhere to do something. It's already built into your hourly rate. If you built into your billable rate that your techs average 4 billable hrs a day, and 4 unbillable, for travel time, parts runs, oil changes, gas fill-up...and all that other stuff.....why are you saying it cost you money?
> 
> If you did it right, you could send your secretary to go do estimates in the company truck, and it wouldn't cost you another dime. It's already accounted for in your techs billable hour.
> 
> His reasoning for charging a $72 service call is flawed.


By your logic you should not mark up material. We asses this fee because it can be billed to the customer which helps cover costs which increases the ticket which increases our bottom line which makes us profitable.


----------



## Shockdoc

B4T said:


> You alway have tire kickers.. just another part of the business you have to accept..
> 
> Even a tire kicker has come back years later wanting work done..


You will also always have the " John Giellas" of ECs too, " will beat any written estimate by 10% ". I'd like to fix these kinds with a written estimate for $950 to perform a 200 amp service upgrade.


----------



## yrman

Dnkldorf said:


> I question their motives.
> 
> Yeah, that's why I like it.
> 
> Here's my point. You already account for your expenses of sending a tech somewhere to do something. It's already built into your hourly rate. If you built into your billable rate that your techs average 4 billable hrs a day, and 4 unbillable, for travel time, parts runs, oil changes, gas fill-up...and all that other stuff.....why are you saying it cost you money?
> 
> If you did it right, you could send your secretary to go do estimates in the company truck, and it wouldn't cost you another dime. It's already accounted for in your techs billable hour.
> 
> His reasoning for charging a $72 service call is flawed.


So how does that make him a troll? To me that is flawed reasoning. These are your opinions, which you are entitled to have. No one is calling you a troll because they disagree with you.


----------



## user4818

You guys are still debating with "going rate B4T"? :laughing:


----------



## Bootss

Shockdoc said:


> You will also always have the " John Giellas" of ECs too, " will beat any written estimate by 10% ". I'd like to fix these kinds with a written estimate for $950 to perform a 200 amp service upgrade.


Who is "John Giellas"?


----------



## Bootss

B4T said:


> You alway have tire kickers.. just another part of the business you have to accept..
> 
> Even a tire kicker has come back years later wanting work done..


You have a point about even a tire kicker may call back some day.
just come on over to the dark side, we all know your a closet flat rate book user.
Just kidding. I agree with your point the kicker will come back maybe.


----------



## 10492

007 said:


> my motive is to operate a profitable company that allows me to be on vacation and it still operates


Everyones dream is different.....




007 said:


> By your logic you should not mark up material.


My logic huh? Is this a scripted response of yours?



007 said:


> We asses this fee because it can be billed to the customer which helps cover costs


No it doesn't. 



007 said:


> which increases the ticket which increases our bottom line which makes us profitable.


Well then there you go. You asses this fee, to make more money. You asses it, to weed out a certain market, or you asses this fee, just because you f-ing can.


----------



## 10492

yrman said:


> So how does that make him a troll? To me that is flawed reasoning.


Maybe. 

Point taken.



yrman said:


> These are your opinions, which you are entitled to have. No one is calling you a troll because they disagree with you.


just wait.....


----------



## Bulldog1

Chris1971 said:


> I'm pricing a 60 or 80 kw for a homeowner. Will know more when I do a site visit.


I try to sell the new low profile 48RCL with load shed now over the older 50kw and up models whenever possible. Remote monitoring only works on the 14/20 and 48 models. Good luck!


----------



## Bulldog1

Celtic said:


> So who has the tiny brains?
> You, your men, both you and your men?
> 
> ...or were you just puffing your chest out ?


OK I'm going to go slow since it's obvious YOU have the tiny brain.....:whistling2:

I own an electrical contracting business. We do a lot of residential and commercial service work, high end remodel, commercial upfits and generators.

I developed a sales system for my company. I........as in..........I......developed. I.... didn't need someone to teach me *THEIR *system" to be successful......We don't operate like normal EC's do. My business model is not to work for everyone...... My guys use a price book for common tasks. It's much more flexible than the flatrate software I have seen.


----------



## Bulldog1

19kilosparky984 said:


> Riding my daddies coat tails is what is most important without him i would have nothing
> 
> 
> 
> Face the facts loser,god it gets old with you soapbopx daddy issue
> fools



:laughing::laughing:

Let me ask you something...... I know you aren't real smart..... I know your a bitter condescending loser and all but.....how does one ride the coat tails of a one man operation? I turned a one man show into something you only wish you could.....:whistling2: My father taught me the electrical trade. Of course I owe him everything you moron. What he didn't do was give me a company. Jealousy actually looks good on you. :thumbsup:

Oh yea.....I'm still waiting on you to back up your claim you bill more hours than we do little man.


----------



## mdfriday

I love threads like this....


----------



## yrman

Ok boys, quit it now. This was a really good thread. Let's keep it that way please.


----------



## Celtic

Shockdoc said:


> You will also always have the " John Giellas" of ECs too, " will beat any written estimate by 10% ". I'd like to fix these kinds with a written estimate for $950 to perform a 200 amp service upgrade.


I don't know who "John Giellas" is and I don't know what he has to do with FR.

There will always be someone who has that catch line [....by 10%] ....so what?
What has that got to with anything?

What happens when a HO takes you up on the $950 service upgrade?
Its just a waste of time....like giving out free estimates.


----------



## Celtic

Bulldog1 said:


> OK I'm going to go slow since it's obvious YOU have the tiny brain.....:whistling2:


Wow...you really said that.....even though it wasn't one of the options offered.
:laughing: LOL




Bulldog1 said:


> I own an electrical contracting business. We do a lot of residential and commercial service work, high end remodel, commercial upfits and generators.
> 
> I developed a sales system for my company. I........as in..........I......developed. I.... didn't need someone to teach me *THEIR *system" to be successful......We don't operate like normal EC's do. My business model is not to work for everyone...... My guys use a price book for common tasks. It's much more flexible than the flatrate software I have seen.



Don't let your pride get in the way of your big mouth.

I never said you said you needed *someone else's* book..I said:


Celtic said:


> Some don't _think _they do...
> 
> 
> ...just like some guys think they know all there is to know about electrical installations so why bother with a code book.



You have your book - and that's great, good for you... 
...you gave it to your men - kudos again...



Bulldog1 said:


> I don't need a book.....it's all in my head. People with tiny brains need a book.


Are you really that arrogant to say you don't need a book ~ and then tell us you have one...I guess so with your choice of monikers :whistling2:


So a guy that is just starting out, that does not have a wealth of historical data at his disposal to develop his own system...has a tiny brain because he realizes he needs others help.

You really take the cake sport :thumbsup:


----------



## Celtic

B4T said:


> ...
> 
> Even a tire kicker has come back years later wanting work done..
> 
> 
> 
> Lep said:
> 
> 
> 
> You have a point about even a tire kicker may call back some day.
> 
> I agree with your point the kicker will come back maybe.
Click to expand...

...the tire kicker coming back "years later" is not going to get the same number from years ago....he's probably looking for another free estimate...and wasting more of your time...again.


----------



## Celtic

Bulldog1 said:


> I turned a one man show into something you only wish you could....
> 
> What he didn't do was give me a company.


How much did you buy it from him for?


----------



## Bulldog1

Celtic said:


> Wow...you really said that.....even though it wasn't one of the options offered.
> :laughing: LOL
> 
> Don't let your pride get in the way of your big mouth.
> 
> I never said you said you needed someone else's book..I said:
> 
> You have your book - and that's great, good for you...
> ...you gave it to your men - kudos again...
> 
> Are you really that arrogant to say you don't need a book ~ and then tell us you have one...I guess so with your choice of monikers :whistling2:
> 
> So a guy that is just starting out, that does not have a wealth of historical data at his disposal to develop his own system...has a tiny brain because he realizes he needs others help.
> 
> You really take the cake sport :thumbsup:


What I said is I didn't need someone else's book to succeed. I had no historical data to go off of. I had no employees either. I developed this system thru hard work and trial and error. Go back to the op's first post. He said he would be lost without his flat rate book.


----------



## 007

Bulldog1 said:


> What I said is I didn't need someone else's book to succeed. I had no historical data to go off of. I had no employees either. I developed this system thru hard work and trial and error. Go back to the op's first post. He said he would be lost without his flat rate book.


Did your father have usable data?


----------



## Bulldog1

007 said:


> Did your father have usable data?[/QUOTEwopsrae
> 
> Nope....he worked alone for years. Used me as slave labor every summer. Maybe 5% of our current customers were dads


----------



## 007

Bulldog1 said:


> 007 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Did your father have usable data?[/QUOTEwopsrae
> 
> Nope....he worked alone for years. Used me as slave labor every summer. Maybe 5% of our current customers were dads
> 
> 
> 
> how long have you had the reins?
Click to expand...


----------



## dawgs

Just long enough to make a few bucks, get a huge ego, and belittle half the people on this forum.


----------



## B4T

dawgs said:


> Just long enough to make a few bucks, get a huge ego, and belittle half the people on this forum.


So what half is that.. I don't know what your beef is with him but your post is just plain dumb.. :no::no::no:


----------



## Bulldog1

dawgs said:


> Just long enough to make a few bucks, get a huge ego, and belittle half the people on this forum.




I think you should go back and re read this thread. I defended myself AFTER I was attacked........:whistling2:

I only belittled the little man kilo. He is a bitter little man with no clue what I have or how I got it....:thumbsup:

I returned fire on Celtic after he called me out. (FYI I have no issue with celtic)


My point which I stated in my first post is you don't need buy flatrate software to succeed.


----------



## Bulldog1

007 said:


> Bulldog1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> how long have you had the reins?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 007 there were no reins to take over. It was a one man operation no building no employees etc. I hired my first employee in 2000. What you guys see as ego I see as " I can do anything I put my mind to if I work hard enough". My business plan is nothing like most EC's and it's working for us. If you need someone to teach you to run a business you didn't do it on your own. I like to do things on my own and my way. Succeed or fail it's all me.....no one but me.....
Click to expand...


----------



## 007

You come across as a pompous ass. Only a fool does not seek out help from those who have already succeeded.


----------



## Bulldog1

007 said:


> You come across as a pompous ass. Only a fool does not seek out help from those who have already succeeded.







I could care less how you think I come across........You come across as someone not smart enough to succeed on their on merit....


Tell that to the guys who started Chick Filet. Oh you will never make it if you don't open on Sundays......:whistling2:


----------



## Bootss

Bulldog1 said:


> 007 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 007 there were no reins to take over. It was a one man operation no building no employees etc. I hired my first employee in 2000. What you guys see as ego I see as " I can do anything I put my mind to if I work hard enough". My business plan is nothing like most EC's and it's working for us. If you need someone to teach you to run a business you didn't do it on your own. I like to do things on my own and my way. Succeed or fail it's all me.....no one but me.....
> 
> 
> 
> By the way it appears you're successful in the generator installation business..
> In my neck of the woods( San Francisco bay area) the generator craze has kind of died
> out,or Im I missing something.
> you think it's something someone should still look into selling,service Res. generators.
Click to expand...


----------



## 007

Bulldog1 said:


> I could care less how you think I come across........You come across as someone not smart enough to succeed on their on merit....
> 
> Tell that to the guys who started Chick Filet. Oh you will never make it if you don't open on Sundays......:whistling2:


I bet you are short.


----------



## Bulldog1

Lep said:


> Bulldog1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> By the way it appears you're successful in the generator installation business..
> In my neck of the woods( San Francisco bay area) the generator craze has kind of died
> out,or Im I missing something.
> you think it's something someone should still look into selling,service Res. generators.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sure do!Why pass up the recurring monthly income from monitoring ( if the ONCue is installed) and servicing them. Most all our customers decide on a monthly plan with free 24 hour service. We also offer quarterly, semi annual or yearly maintenance contracts. We also sell them online now. Shipped one yesterday to VA.
Click to expand...


----------



## Bulldog1

007 said:


> I bet you are short.



:lol: :lol:


----------



## 007

Bulldog1 said:


> :lol: :lol:


And to think a short tome back you were ready to quit


----------



## Bootss

Bulldog1 said:


> I could care less how you think I come across........You come across as someone not smart enough to succeed on their on merit....
> 
> 
> Tell that to the guys who started Chick Filet. Oh you will never make it if you don't open on Sundays......:whistling2:


You appear to be a very talented businessman.But in my humble opinion
I would stop feuding with this fello.It appears he is connected with a very large electrical franchise.I I couldn't think of a better source, or market for selling your generators to. why not offer in olive branch and figure out how to make some money together? just my 2 cents


----------



## Bulldog1

007 said:


> And to think a short tome back you were ready to quit



:blink:

:no:

Are you......:drink:?


You must be thinking of Mrsrewire.....:thumbsup:


----------



## 007

Bulldog1 said:


> :blink:
> 
> :no:
> 
> Are you......:drink:?
> 
> You must be thinking of Mrsrewire.....:thumbsup:


No it was you or don't you remember JWJW


----------



## Bulldog1

Lep said:


> You appear to be a very talented businessman.But in my humble opinion
> I would stop feuding with this fello.It appears he is connected with a very large electrical franchise.I I couldn't think of a better source, or market for selling your generators to. why not offer in olive branch and figure out how to make some money together? just my 2 cents





Well for one we don't have any olive branches in NC. :laughing:

Two....I'm not feuding with 007.... I like a spirited debate.... If you own a company and need someone to teach you how to run it to be profitable you didn't do it on your own. I like doing things on my own.


----------



## Bulldog1

007 said:


> No it was you or don't you remember JWJW



In 2009 we got really slow like a lot of guys did. Then we got busy.....I don't think I ever mentioned quitting. Then again 3 years ago who knows what I said. And......it was jwjrw double ooooooooo.


----------



## 007

Bulldog1 said:


> Well for one we don't have any olive branches in NC. :laughing:
> 
> Two....I'm not feuding with 007.... I like a spirited debate.... If you own a company and need someone to teach you how to run it to be profitable you didn't do it on your own. I like doing things on my own.


So you never read a book? I guess I am just not that hard headed when presented an opportunity To operate a profitable business that on a few short years would allow me to be sitting poolside in July on afriday afternoon sipping a cool beverage while the business keeps going I didn't say heck no I'm doing it on my own


----------



## B4T

I never read a book about business and didn't have to buy a franchise either to get the ball rolling.. WOW.. I'm just a big dummy..


----------



## 007

B4T said:


> I never read a book about business and didn't have to buy a franchise either to get the ball rolling.. WOW.. I'm just a big dummy..


I can tell you never read a book on business


----------



## B4T

007 said:


> I can tell you never read a book on business


Thank-you.. I take that as a compliment coming from you.. :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


----------



## 007

B4T said:


> Thank-you.. I take that as a compliment coming from you.. :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


I would respond but the waitress is here with my drink


----------



## B4T

007 said:


> I would respond but the waitress is here with my drink


I will let you know when I'm impressed.. :laughing:


----------



## 007

B4T said:


> I will let you know when I'm impressed.. :laughing:


Not everyone can be a winner


----------



## Magnettica

dawgs said:


> Just long enough to make a few bucks, get a huge ego, and belittle half the people on this forum.



I can speak for Bulldog's character from experience. He's an outstanding and useful member of this forum. I've even text'd him personally for information and he's been nothing but graceful and helpful.


----------



## 10492

007 said:


> I can tell you never read a book on business


Reading a book and comprehending it are two different animals.

I find your comment funny, coming from someone who charges fees and doesn't know why, other than "the other guy does it".

Stop being a know-it-all punk.


----------



## 007

Dnkldorf said:


> Reading a book and comprehending it are two different animals.
> 
> I find your comment funny, coming from someone who charges fees and doesn't know why, other than "the other guy does it".
> 
> Stop being a know-it-all punk.


You like to pick fights , I have a reason for everything I charge and not one of those reasons is because" the other guy does it"


----------



## brian john

Operating a business is no different than doing electrical work. If you get 4 guys in a room and ask them how to wire that room you will come up with 5 different ways. Same in business, some guys go left some right some up the middle as long as you don’t go backwards and you are happy, make money, realize you way may not be perfect and always operate with an open mind. GO FOR IT.


----------



## electricalwiz

brian john said:


> Operating a business is no different than doing electrical work. If you get 4 guys in a room and ask them how to wire that room you will come up with 5 different ways. Same in business, some guys go left some right some up the middle as long as you don’t go backwards and you are happy, make money, realize you way may not be perfect and always operate with an open mind. GO FOR IT.


That is what I dont understand, why do people get upset if they dont run their business' the exact same way, who cares if the other guy is making money as long as he is happy.


----------



## brian john

electricalwiz said:


> That is what I dont understand, why do people get upset if they dont run their business' the exact same way, who cares if the other guy is making money as long as he is happy.


 
I never until now would tell you how I run my business as I would be ripped apart. NO PLAN, I learned as I went along. I was thrust into having to start a company and I do OK, I think. 

I have .35 cents in my pocket, 1/4 tank of gas and leaving for Washington DC for a 1 day vacation as soon as I can get someone to answer the phones for me.


----------



## electricalwiz

brian john said:


> I never until now would tell you how I run my business as I would be ripped apart. NO PLAN, I learned as I went along. I was thrust into having to start a company and I do OK, I think.
> 
> I have .35 cents in my pocket, 1/4 tank of gas and leaving for Washington DC for a 1 day vacation as soon as I can get someone to answer the phones for me.


 I am the same way, never had a business plan dont even know what one is, dont really care. I would not put myself in the same category of success as you but I have no debt, and I have grown a little bit every year since I started out 9 years ago


----------



## brian john

electricalwiz said:


> I am the same way, never had a business plan dont even know what one is, dont really care. I would not put myself in the same category of success as you but I have no debt, and I have grown a little bit every year since I started out 9 years ago


 
Sounds like me.


----------



## Chris1971

Magnettica said:


> I can speak for Bulldog's character from experience. He's an outstanding and useful member of this forum. I've even text'd him personally for information and he's been nothing but graceful and helpful.



I've emailed Bulldog1 in the past with questions and like Magnettica stated, he's been very gracious to respond and answer any questions.


----------



## 007

I worked for an old man years ago he use to say their are many ways to run a business but only one right way. I asked him what's the right way. He said that depends on who you ask. I then asked what's your "right way" he looked over at me smiled and said one word....... Profitable


----------



## SVT CAMR

Shockdoc said:


> You will also always have the " John Giellas" of ECs too, " will beat any written estimate by 10% ". I'd like to fix these kinds with a written estimate for $950 to perform a 200 amp service upgrade.


Ha Ha Ha but I see him in your area on yelp! he was the other guy that stood out in the google searches. too funny :laughing:


----------



## Flytyingyaker

Does anyone know if you can cancel you subscription with the precision pricing program at anytime?


----------



## Chris1971

Flytyingyaker said:


> Does anyone know if you can cancel you subscription with the precision pricing program at anytime?



He was going to offer that option a while back. Not sure if he is or not?


----------



## Tiger

brian john said:


> Operating a business is no different than doing electrical work. If you get 4 guys in a room and ask them how to wire that room you will come up with 5 different ways. Same in business, some guys go left some right some up the middle as long as you don’t go backwards and you are happy, make money, realize you way may not be perfect and always operate with an open mind. GO FOR IT.


I have had a lot of help from this forum and forums like it in learning to calculate loaded labor, change to flat rate, price a whole-house megger and other tasks, and recently got some advice on a 3PH contactor from Mr. brian john. Thanks guy, I appreciate you and those like you. More tolerance among us would be appreciated.


----------



## T-Bart

A flat rate book is a more complex tool that isnt really intended to be used by the average roper. The book itself is useless without the skillset to use it.


----------



## dawgs

B4T said:


> So what half is that.. I don't know what your beef is with him but your post is just plain dumb.. :no::no::no:


This half. Then I'm one closer to your dumb posts. 21,890 to go.


----------



## dawgs

Bulldog1 said:


> I think you should go back and re read this thread. I defended myself AFTER I was attacked........:whistling2:
> 
> I only belittled the little man kilo. He is a bitter little man with no clue what I have or how I got it....:thumbsup:
> 
> I returned fire on Celtic after he called me out. (FYI I have no issue with celtic)
> 
> My point which I stated in my first post is you don't need buy flatrate software to succeed.


I'm sure your a fine business man. You seem very determined to succeed and grow your company. But you tend to come across as an ass on more than one occasion, and try to attack and belittle people on this forum. I hope you don't do that in the outside world. Word could spred, and all that you worked for could turn on you.


----------



## 007

T-Bart said:


> A flat rate book is a more complex tool that isnt really intended to be used by the average roper. The book itself is useless without the skillset to use it.


You are so right on this without training and proceedures you are better off not spending the money but when everything is in place I have not seen anything better for a service company


----------



## T-Bart

007 said:


> You are so right on this without training and proceedures you are better off not spending the money but when everything is in place I have not seen anything better for a service company


A flat rate book is comparable to a megger. Some electricians just cant use them.


----------



## TheBrushMan007

It can be taught! IMO Every week without fail a company should have sales training. Play out different scenarios that we face in the residential replacement business.

It just takes practice.


----------



## 007

TheBrushMan007 said:


> It can be taught! IMO Every week without fail a company should have sales training. Play out different scenarios that we face in the residential replacement business.
> 
> It just takes practice.


We pull tickets at random and discuss them at our weekly training .


----------



## TheBrushMan007

007 said:


> We pull tickets at random and discuss them at our weekly training .


Absolutely, many times you can find room for improvement or straight up find mistakes in the way someone priced the job.


----------



## T-Bart

Shockdoc said:


> There are so many variables in construction, methods and local building codes in this field that I can't see how flat rate pricing could be accurate. Two separate jobs getting the same item. One is a ranch house with an open basement getting a 20 amp circuit. Panel is in basement. The other a split level, panel is in bedroom. How can you price both of these the same ?


You build the assemblies 
15 amp 120 volt circuit from type ch115 breaker 50 ft open acces 14/2 30 feet no access install single gang old work box into gypsum at 18" AFF with white decora 15a duplex recepticle and white lexan mid plate. $688.50

Your software or book should be able to adjust to those variables and make that price on the spot. Flat rate doesn't mean one rate, perhaps a better term is fixed rate or guaranteed rate.


----------



## flyboy

TheBrushMan007 said:


> It can be taught! IMO Every week without fail a company should have sales training. Play out different scenarios that we face in the residential replacement business.
> 
> It just takes practice.


Your absolutely right! We have sales training twice a week. Tuesdays morning for technicians, Tuesday afternoon for Comfort Advisers (salespeople). They role play the sales presentation by taking turns on being the customer. They throw objections at each other and practice the objection handling phrases. They practice writing options, presenting options and asking for the sale. 

In addition to that, each tech and salesperson is closed out and debriefed after each call. 



TheBrushMan007 said:


> Absolutely, many times you can find room for improvement or straight up find mistakes in the way someone priced the job.


We have a full time "trade administer" whose job is to review every invoice and proposal for accuracy in pricing, options given, follow-up and happy calls. They keep track and post average sales, conversion rates, service agreement sales, turn-overs and post it on a board in the training room for everyone to see. Bonuses, attaboys as well as corrective actions are taken as needed in the form of additional training either one on one in the training room, ride along or assignments on the computer sales training program. 

Continuous, ongoing, quality training, both sales and technical, adjusting prices with overhead on a quarterly bases, field QC checks and performance reviews are an integral part of what must be done in this business to remain profitable. 

Daily huddles where all the numbers are posted and reviewed by all office personnel for the day before, week to date, month date and year to date and the call strategy for the day and the following day are discussed.


----------



## user4818

I have a book of rates and it happens to be very flat as well.


----------



## macmikeman

Technicians. Comfort Advisors. Trade Administrators. 





Golden Showers.


----------



## flyboy

macmikeman said:


> Technicians. Comfort Advisors. Trade Administrators.


*Technicians* - electricians, HVAC techs & plumbers
*Comfort* *Advisors* - salespeople (commissioned only)
*Trade Administrators *- Clerk or entry level bookkeeper 



macmikeman said:


> Golden Showers.


*Golden Showers* - What senior citizens use instead of a bath tub when they want to clean themselves?


----------



## 19kilosparky984

macmikeman said:


> Technicians. Comfort Advisors. Trade Administrators.
> 
> Golden Showers.


Seminar attender, bull****ter,spoiled brat

Water sports.


----------



## 19kilosparky984

flyboy said:


> Technicians - electricians, HVAC techs & plumbers
> Comfort Advisors - salespeople (commissioned only)
> Trade Administrators - Clerk or entry level bookkeeper
> 
> Golden Showers - What senior citizens use instead of a bath tub when they want to clean themselves?


You mean

Electrician
Salesman
Book keeper

Why are you making up Titles for people that already have titles?

Last I checked this wasn't called technician talk .com


----------



## chicken steve

flyboy said:


> Your absolutely right! We have sales training twice a week. Tuesdays morning for technicians, Tuesday afternoon for Comfort Advisers (salespeople). They role play the sales presentation by taking turns on being the customer. They throw objections at each other and practice the objection handling phrases. They practice writing options, presenting options and asking for the sale.
> 
> In addition to that, each tech and salesperson is closed out and debriefed after each call.
> 
> 
> 
> We have a full time "trade administer" whose job is to review every invoice and proposal for accuracy in pricing, options given, follow-up and happy calls. They keep track and post average sales, conversion rates, service agreement sales, turn-overs and post it on a board in the training room for everyone to see. Bonuses, attaboys as well as corrective actions are taken as needed in the form of additional training either one on one in the training room, ride along or assignments on the computer sales training program.
> 
> Continuous, ongoing, quality training, both sales and technical, adjusting prices with overhead on a quarterly bases, field QC checks and performance reviews are an integral part of what must be done in this business to remain profitable.
> 
> Daily huddles where all the numbers are posted and reviewed by all office personnel for the day before, week to date, month date and year to date and the call strategy for the day and the following day are discussed.


 
all that overhead might pay off, but it's _still _overhead that pumps your #'s up . 


i can't see how this is competitive with sorts that forgo such expenses


~CS~


----------



## Bootss

Hi flyboy
How do you use your sales people?Maybe for larger projects, new construction bids,
estimates that can't be converted into service calls I'm curious to know .In California they are labeled"home improvement salesman" per state law.I I don't know you might be in California. thanks


----------



## Tiger

chicken steve said:


> all that overhead might pay off, but it's _still _overhead that pumps your #'s up .
> 
> i can't see how this is competitive with sorts that forgo such expenses
> 
> ~CS~


It is true that additional overhead increases your hourly rate. What you need to charge to stay in business with a profit becomes shocking actually. This is why flat rate is successful in residential service. It is generally accepted that a business would not be successful quoting hourly rates over $150/hour. Yet when marketing and employee benefits are included the needed hourly rate can easily exceed $200/hour. With flat rate it becomes a $x,xxx project rather than an hourly rate. The customer accepts it or not in advance. This is generally preferable to an hourly rate (in residential service) with an open-ended final invoice.

As to competition (in residential service) you have:

1. Unemployed electricians working for their employee rate of $20-40/hour and find out after a while that they don't invoice 40 hours per week. These guys don't stay in it long.

2. Guys that call around for the going rate and charge 10-20% less as their low-price marketing strategy. The main problem with this is the businesses they call may not know any more about business than they do. They may be charging hourly around $100/hour, no marketing, no benefits with the owner earning less than an electrician working for a good company.

3. Guys that calculate costs with conservative marketing and minimal benefits in the $150-$250/hour range.

4. Guys that calculate costs with aggressive marketing and full benefits in the $250-$400/hour range.

How can anyone get $400/hour? With marketing. The same way Rolex sells $30,000 watches.


----------



## chicken steve

Tiger said:


> 4. Guys that calculate costs with aggressive marketing and full benefits in the $250-$400/hour range.
> 
> How can anyone get $400/hour? With marketing. The same way Rolex sells $30,000 watches.


Can anyone here find me an advertisment for $400 hr electrical work, and further impart how it's working out?

~CS~


----------



## Chris1971

chicken steve said:


> Can anyone here find me an advertisment for $400 hr electrical work, and further impart how it's working out?
> 
> ~CS~



I just finished a 2 hour job. $50 in material. $900 in labor. Bid job one person. $425 an hour.


----------



## macmikeman

chicken steve said:


> Can anyone here find me an advertisment for $400 hr electrical work, and further impart how it's working out?
> 
> ~CS~


Thats easy. Look in your yellow pages under "Mr. Electric".


----------



## sparkie2010

Chris1971 said:


> I just finished a 2 hour job. $50 in material. $900 in labor. Bid job one person. $425 an hour.


NICE:thumbsup:


----------



## chicken steve

Chris1971 said:


> I just finished a 2 hour job. $50 in material. $900 in labor. Bid job one person. $425 an hour.


yeah, well i've done just as well on bid jobs

that _wasn't_ my Q Chris

~CS~


----------



## chicken steve

macmikeman said:


> Thats easy. Look in your yellow pages under "Mr. Electric".


we've no such YP entry here Mac

~CS~


----------



## TheBrushMan007

chicken steve said:


> Can anyone here find me an advertisment for $400 hr electrical work, and further impart how it's working out?
> 
> ~CS~


Contractors that use flat rate do not advertise, "hey look at me, we charge $250 - $400 an hour".

We charge $50 to change out a receptacle. If I change out 8 in one hour, I just made $400.


----------



## yrman

TheBrushMan007 said:


> Contractors that use flat rate do not advertise, "hey look at me, we charge $250 - $400 an hour".
> 
> We charge $50 to change out a receptacle. If I change out 8 in one hour, I just made $400.


Exactly. We charge $55 for a receptacle. That is a lot but lots of people pay it without any problem (plus diagnostic or trip charge) Just raised our rates from $51-55. Simple diagnostic for a single device $177. 20- 30 minutes tops. That is how. Customers like it because they know exactly what their final bill wil be, no surprises.


----------



## dronai

yrman said:


> Exactly. We charge $55 for a receptacle. That is a lot but lots of people pay it without any problem (plus diagnostic or trip charge) Just raised our rates from $51-55. Simple diagnostic for a single device $177. 20- 30 minutes tops. That is how. Customers like it because they know exactly what their final bill wil be, no surprises.


Hi yrman,

So if someone says, change out 100 receptacles in a house. how much would you charge for the labor ?

Keep in mind, most of us can change one out in 5 minutes, and the rec cost $1.25


----------



## electrictim510

Noone in their right mind would advertise "Out hourly rate is $400/hr", that is just stupid. 

Flat-rate books help for many reasons, but one is that people buy better when shown that you did not just make up a number based on their car in the driveway, their house, their age, their nationality etc. 

A flat-rate book is also for new technicians that are not use to pricing work, but are good electricians. Someone can know how much a receptacle costs and how long it takes to put it in, but he would probably calculate it like this.

receptacle cost $1.25 x 3.0 = $3.75 + 100/hr x 15min. (1/4 of an hour $25 = $28.75 Good luck making money on that crap! 

It is also used more of a guide after a while and a good tech that is use to the price-book knows when and where to use it, but it takes time. Until then it is best to always use it. It also should be broken down into categories.
Kinda like this;

_Reg. rate =_
_Preferred rate =_ (this could be a discount usually for maintenence agreement customers or the like)
_Reg. add-on rate =_ price to do more than one, or more than a certain number of the same task. It is a money motivated reason to do more now.
_Preferred add-on rate = _

There are reasons why most EC's die old age with barely anything to show for it. It is because everyone is out to slit their own throat and anyone wanting to make real money in the business. If you do not believe you should be making good money in the trade then go work for a real EC that can SELL work to keep you busy.


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## electrictim510

dronai said:


> Hi yrman,
> 
> So if someone says, change out 100 receptacles in a house. how much would you charge for the labor ?
> 
> Keep in mind, most of us can change one out in 5 minutes, and the rec cost $1.25


I know you asked yrman, but considering this is a "competitive" quote.

$2600 or so would be my base considering easy access.

Now another consideration would be that I did a similar install of about 60 devices in a home pigtailed connections and had to move some furniture out of the way to fully access everything and that came to $4200


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## dronai

electrictim510 said:


> I know you asked yrman, but considering this is a "competitive" quote.
> 
> $2600 or so would be my base considering easy access.


 
Really ! Wow ! :thumbsup:
That's $5.00 / minute.

I think I could only try to do that as an employee. Then I could look them in the eyes as I quoted that. $300/hr is a hard sell. $100/hr is a hard enough.

More power to you, if you can do it.


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## electrictim510

All the time. If they pass that's fine. This kind of job is either going to be given to me at that rate, or to someone else willing to do it for less than $1000. If given to the cheaper guy, that is one less guy that is out there bidding on jobs for customers who want to pay more. :thumbsup:


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## yrman

dronai said:


> Hi yrman,
> 
> So if someone says, change out 100 receptacles in a house. how much would you charge for the labor ?
> 
> Keep in mind, most of us can change one out in 5 minutes, and the rec cost $1.25


We would charge $55 each. If there are a lot, we'll do the first 10 at $55 the remainder at $45 each. We explain about pigtailing wires vs backstabbibg and most people are fine with that. we charge $109 per GFI. If there is other work involved like new circuits and service upgrade we will sometimes discount the devices to $35 but we try not to do that unless it will make the difference between winning the job or not. We are very strict about twisting the wires together for every connection.


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## yrman

dronai said:


> Really ! Wow ! :thumbsup:
> That's $5.00 / minute.
> 
> I think I could only try to do that as an employee. Then I could look them in the eyes as I quoted that. $300/hr is a hard sell. $100/hr is a hard enough.
> 
> More power to you, if you can do it.


See the thing is that you are thinking in terms of hourly rates, not by the task. We win jobs at $55 per device vs $25 all the time. Especially when we go into detail about how we wire them vs speed wiring. We explain why it is worth it for them to pay more because our way takes more time. We also give them a lifetime guarantee on the devices we wire (not just for a single) when we do them all. Its all about the value. They know they will never have a problem with that device again.
Today, .one of our employees told us that he thinks we dont charge enough sometimes. He believes in the value of the service we provide and has no problem looking the customer in the eye and quoting with pride. If you dont believe you are worth it, how can you sell it? Too many tradesmen underestimate their value to the customer. If they could do it themselves they would. How many time have you seen jacked up devices installed by hacks? You can bet they were not charging much. A properly done job is worth it. Electrical work is NOT a commodity. There are different ways of doing things and people will pay more to feel confident it is being done the right way. 

Remember, you are not able to charge for every working hour but your expenses dont care. The bills need to be paid. Think about how many years you have invested in becoming an expert at your trade. You are worth it!


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