# Simple temperature shutoff



## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

Not sure what you're controlling, but I'd use something like this
https://media.qcsupply.com/media/product_attachments/attachment_file/S/u/Sunne10004datasheet.pdf


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

You could get something like this 

https://www.amazon.com/Johnson-Controls-Electronic-Temp-Control/dp/B01IWIZJHA 

You might need to replace the temperature probe with something outdoor rated 

https://www.amazon.com/Honeywell-C7089U1006-Outdoor-Temperature-Sensor 

(I didn't check if those are compatible, I am sure Johnson Controls makes something suitable to go with the JC controller.) 

Just check the programmable options of what you pick out to make sure it's suitable. Even the simplest thermostat is more complicated than just turn off at >= 55*F turn on at <55*F
https://www.amazon.com/Honeywell-C7089U1006-Outdoor-Temperature-Sensor


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

Honeywell. Daton both make them for remote outside sensing. 
The T6031 series works well depending on what your trying to do.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Oh wow, they do make them. I thought I was going to have to hack together a RIB and controller with levernuts.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

Any Tstat with a remote bulb will work if you want to keep the control inside.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

The apartments I work on had or may still have the honeywell outside temp bulbs/aquastats for that purpose to shut off the circulator pumps once the outside temp was at a certain point.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

nrp3 said:


> The apartments I work on had or may still have the honeywell outside temp bulbs/aquastats for that purpose to shut off the circulator pumps once the outside temp was at a certain point.


This is exactly it.

Which model? I need someone to make this decision for me.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I be digging.


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## JoeSparky (Mar 25, 2010)

This one is fairly inexpensive and should work for you. Copper bulb, so locating it outside should not be a concern. Not electronic, so should be damned reliable.

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Siemens...-Thermostat-w-6-ft-Capillary-SPDT-30F-to-110F


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

This too, Honeywell T4031 or T6031 series.


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## MotoGP1199 (Aug 11, 2014)

Super home owner option, 1800w. You can choose the on temp and the off temp. Lots of devices for terrariums have that feature.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B081HVTB9W/ref=ask_ql_qh_dp_hza

EDIT:

Another one, 15A, ON and Off setpoints. Looks a little better than the other one. $38
https://www.amazon.com/DIGITEN-Ther...Temperature/dp/B07BFR1Z4B?ref_=fsclp_pl_dp_13


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

You beat me to it. I was looking through the online plumbing supply house app I have . A lot of this we’ve replaced over the years with stuff from Tekmar but that’s likely more expensive and or complex than he needs. I’ll have to look at the Daton stuff.



Wirenuting said:


> Honeywell. Daton both make them for remote outside sensing.
> The T6031 series works well depending on what your trying to do.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

nrp3 said:


> You beat me to it. I was looking through the online plumbing supply house app I have . A lot of this we’ve replaced over the years with stuff from Tekmar but that’s likely more expensive and or complex than he needs. I’ll have to look at the Daton stuff.


They are durable and easy to use. I don't have my catalog, it's at work. We probably have a dozen on the shops shelf.
@HackWork, place it on a north wall and use a rain shield over it. You'll be retired and senile before it breaks.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Wirenuting said:


> They are durable and easy to use. I don't have my catalog, it's at work. We probably have a dozen on the shops shelf.
> 
> @HackWork, place it on a north wall and use a rain shield over it. You'll be retired and senile before it breaks.


Here is the T6031 line: https://customer.honeywell.com/en-U...nECC+Catalog&category=T6031&catpath=1.3.7.6.6

I figure the top one will work fine, it is SPST. Or should I go with one with the stainless bulb?


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

HackWork said:


> Here is the T6031 line: https://customer.honeywell.com/en-U...nECC+Catalog&category=T6031&catpath=1.3.7.6.6
> 
> I figure the top one will work fine, it is SPST. Or should I go with one with the stainless bulb?


Copper is fine, I've only used stainless in pool pump rooms. 
The shield will extend the life by a long ways, it's held in place by a couple of plastic anchors. 
North wall, east wall, west wall and last choice is a southern wall for boiler control.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Do you have any recommendations on the shield? Do they make something that will also secure the bulb?


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

HackWork said:


> Do you have any recommendations on the shield? Do they make something that will also secure the bulb?


It should be in the same catalog. The bulb slips right into a bracket inside the shield. 
I don't have my paper catalog here at home. 

I'll do a dig.


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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

We use the ones from Grainger. They are plastic and Nema 4x, one type has a sensing element mounted to the bottom exterior of the thermostat, the other type has a small coil of copper tubing for a remote bulb. Maybe a couple feet long or so.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

HackWork said:


> Do you have any recommendations on the shield? Do they make something that will also secure the bulb?


Should be on this page. I keep losing Internet as a storm rolls in.
https://customer.honeywell.com/en-U...nd%20Accessories&catpath=1.1.1.3.22&start1=10


It's just a metal shield and the builb attaches to the back of it.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Wirenuting said:


> Should be on this page. I keep losing Internet as a storm rolls in.
> https://customer.honeywell.com/en-U...nd%20Accessories&catpath=1.1.1.3.22&start1=10
> 
> 
> It's just a metal shield and the builb attaches to the back of it.


Thanks, but this opens up a new question. One of the other Brands that someone linked to specifically said to keep the bulb away from metal. The shield that you linked to not only is made of metal, but the clip that holds the bulb is metal.

That won’t cause any issues?


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

joe-nwt said:


> Any Tstat with a remote bulb will work if you want to keep the control inside.


But "any" t-stat isn't going to switch line voltage without an additional relay.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

HackWork said:


> Here is the T6031 line: https://customer.honeywell.com/en-U...nECC+Catalog&category=T6031&catpath=1.3.7.6.6
> 
> I figure the top one will work fine, it is SPST. Or should I go with one with the stainless bulb?


What kind of outdoor evironment?

I've only used cupro nickel or SS on the ocean.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

HackWork said:


> Thanks, but this opens up a new question. One of the other Brands that someone linked to specifically said to keep the bulb away from metal. The shield that you linked to not only is made of metal, but the clip that holds the bulb is metal.
> 
> That won’t cause any issues?


They are made to go together, a non-issue.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

HackWork said:


> Thanks, but this opens up a new question. One of the other Brands that someone linked to specifically said to keep the bulb away from metal. The shield that you linked to not only is made of metal, but the clip that holds the bulb is metal.
> 
> That won’t cause any issues?


Never had a problem. 
We have saved the shields and used them over and over.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Great, thanks for all the help guys.

Now I am thinking maybe the 5 degree differential would be better, less switching on and off when the temperature is fluctuating right around the setpoint.

Good idea or am I off?


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

HackWork said:


> Great, thanks for all the help guys.
> 
> Now I am thinking maybe the 5 degree differential would be better, less switching on and off when the temperature is fluctuating right around the setpoint.
> 
> Good idea or am I off?


That's spot on.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

MechanicalDVR said:


> But "any" t-stat isn't going to switch line voltage without an additional relay.


Had no idea someone made a remote bulb style tstat that was only low voltage. Do you have a link to one?


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

joe-nwt said:


> Had no idea someone made a remote bulb style tstat that was only low voltage. Do you have a link to one?


You can use a line voltage stat like the one we are talking about to switch LV. 
It's only a switch anyway. We use them as digital inputs for the building controls all the time. 
It's the same as the low temp cutouts on an air handler. String the sensing line across the coil, low temp opens the line voltage starter circuit and the other contacts close on the LV Digital input to the control panel to report back to the panel.

I like these style freeze stats, you can manually trip an air handler offline.... But use lots of care as there is a small ball bearing that can fly off, then your screwed..


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Ok, so here is another thing.

In addition to the remotely located circulator pumps that I want controlled by the outside temperature, I am also thinking about using one to turn the entire heating system on and off. This way at 60 degrees it goes off and they don't have to switch it off manually. Any issues with that?


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

HackWork said:


> Ok, so here is another thing.
> 
> In addition to the remotely located circulator pumps that I want controlled by the outside temperature, I am also thinking about using one to turn the entire heating system on and off. This way at 60 degrees it goes off and they don't have to switch it off manually. Any issues with that?


Then I would use the sensor to enable a relay to switch on the devices you require. 
Relay logic for system enable,
Pump on, Flow switch at pump to allow boiler enable relay to close and boiler on. 
All boiler safeties are wired normally. 

It all depends on how complex the system might be.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

HackWork said:


> Ok, so here is another thing.
> 
> In addition to the remotely located circulator pumps that I want controlled by the outside temperature, I am also thinking about using one to turn the entire heating system on and off. This way at 60 degrees it goes off and they don't have to switch it off manually. Any issues with that?


Only downside I can think of is if the outside temp is 61 deg and the owner comes from outside with a chill, the heating system is not available to them unless you rig up an over-ride.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

Wirenuting said:


> *You can use a line voltage stat like the one we are talking about to switch LV. *
> It's only a switch anyway. We use them as digital inputs for the building controls all the time.
> It's the same as the low temp cutouts on an air handler. String the sensing line across the coil, low temp opens the line voltage starter circuit and the other contacts close on the LV Digital input to the control panel to report back to the panel.
> 
> I like these style freeze stats, you can manually trip an air handler offline.... But use lots of care as there is a small ball bearing that can fly off, then your screwed..


I understand that. MechanicalDVR made it sound like there might be remote bulb tstats out there that were low voltage only and would require a relay. I was just curious if such a thing exists.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

joe-nwt said:


> Only downside I can think of is if the outside temp is 61 deg and the owner comes from outside with a chill, the heating system is not available to them unless you rig up an over-ride.


It's for an old condo building and none of the mechanical contractors have been able to get the controls to shut the furnace down when it gets warm out, and they have to manually shut it off. During the Summer that is fine, but during times like this they have to shut it off in the morning when it is going to be 65 degrees out, but turn it back on at night when it goes down to 40 degrees.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

HackWork said:


> It's for an old condo building and none of the mechanical contractors have been able to get the controls to shut the furnace down when it gets warm out, and they have to manually shut it off. During the Summer that is fine, but during times like this they have to shut it off in the morning when it is going to be 65 degrees out, but turn it back on at night when it goes down to 40 degrees.


Ohhhh, a furnace! Why didn't you say so? 

I suggest a low voltage remote bulb thermostat in series with the indoor thermostat.:devil3:

Seriously, I can't think of any reason why you couldn't.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

HackWork said:


> Ok, so here is another thing.
> 
> In addition to the remotely located circulator pumps that I want controlled by the outside temperature, I am also thinking about using one to turn the entire heating system on and off. This way at 60 degrees it goes off and they don't have to switch it off manually. Any issues with that?


If you could get a DPDT or (even DPST) with a suitable rating, you'd be all set. You need a relay with horsepower rated contacts to control the circulator pumps. The temperature would switch them together. But I thin a DP will be hard to find. 

You could use the device you've already chosen to energize the coil of a DPDT relay, that's easy. If you use a relay with 120VAC coil you don't have to buy a power supply. But, you probably wind up with an enclosure. Maybe you could run the cord out of the single pole device you've chosen into a junction box with a cord grip, and put a suitable RIB power relay on the same junction box. 

It might be simplest / cheapest / easiest to install to just buy two of the SPST or SPDT device you chose, they're what $65 or something.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

The supplemental circulator pumps are located remotely on each far end of the building, that is why they aren't switched on and off by the furnace like the main circulator pumps located at the furnace. 

So that is why using a standalone thermostat device to switch the pumps on/off would be best. No trying to run wiring 150' from the furnace room to the location of the pumps.

The issue with the furnace itself being switched off when it gets warm is separate, it seems easy to do with the same type of thermostat device.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

joe-nwt said:


> Had no idea someone made a remote bulb style tstat that was only low voltage. Do you have a link to one?



Most better digital t-stats are capable of using a remote sensing buly.

Honeywell 6000, 8000, Pro series, Tekmar, Johnson, etc. All low voltage switching.


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## glen1971 (Oct 10, 2012)

FWIW, depending on your capillary bulb location I've mounted them to the outside wall with rubber lined stainless clips and had no issues with them in the past. For areas that were subject to mechanical damage, I've mounted a couple inside a 3/4"x3' aluminum nipple before with no issues either. Most of the ones I've done were for heat trace or lighting control, so I don't know if there was an error in measurement that no one caught or really cared about in those installs.

The rubber clips I've used are:
https://www.swagelok.com/en/catalog/Product/Detail?part=SS-TBP8


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

HackWork said:


> The supplemental circulator pumps are located remotely on each far end of the building, that is why they aren't switched on and off by the furnace like the main circulator pumps located at the furnace.
> 
> So that is why using a standalone thermostat device to switch the pumps on/off would be best. No trying to run wiring 150' from the furnace room to the location of the pumps.
> 
> The issue with the furnace itself being switched off when it gets warm is separate, it seems easy to do with the same type of thermostat device.




Ok I understand.
I would use the remote bulb sensor to enable the boiler system. 

Since it has a primary pump I would use a contact sensor on the main loop and have it set to enable the remote pumps at about 140deg. 
This saves you from having to run 150' of wire and also ends anyone manually turning on the remote pumps. 

The contact bulb sensor can be found on the same site as you had yesterday. Don't forget to use the grease that comes with it.. The probe lays on the pipe and they give you a rubber tape to wrap it in.

Edit, I just saw you already have remote pump control.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Wirenuting said:


> Ok I understand.
> I would use the remote bulb sensor to enable the boiler system.
> 
> Since it has a primary pump I would use a contact sensor on the main loop and have it set to enable the remote pumps at about 140deg.
> ...


There's no control for the remote pumps, just 120V and a switch to turn them on.

The "contact bulb sensor" that you mentioned, that would be like a typical aquastat?

That would be better method to switch the remote pumps than using the outside temp?


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

HackWork said:


> There's no control for the remote pumps, just 120V and a switch to turn them on.
> 
> The "contact bulb sensor" that you mentioned, that would be like a typical aquastat?
> 
> That would be better method to switch the remote pumps than using the outside temp?


We use the outside temp to enable the primary circ pumps and the the boilers. 
The aquastat is contact and not a dry well, and we use them to turn the secondary pumps on only after the hearing loop begins to warm. 

The primary pumps we have all use a flow switch to insure your not firing a dry boiler.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Most better digital t-stats are capable of using a remote sensing buly.
> 
> Honeywell 6000, 8000, Pro series, Tekmar, Johnson, etc. All low voltage switching.


Okay. I see you are talking about digital thermostats.

I read through the programming manuals for the first 2 (honeywell). I see no indication you can use the outdoor sensor for anything other than displaying the outdoor temp. I know most of the high end devices have provisions for an outdoor sensor for setback, usually this is used to adjust a hydronic system from max set temp to a lower temp in the shoulder season so system temps don't overshoot. This is not even close to what Hack is looking for.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

Wirenuting said:


> We use the outside temp to enable the primary circ pumps and the the boilers.
> The aquastat is contact and not a dry well, and we use them to turn the secondary pumps on only after the hearing loop begins to warm.
> 
> The primary pumps we have all use a flow switch to insure your not firing a dry boiler.


delete


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

joe-nwt said:


> Okay. I see you are talking about digital thermostats.
> 
> I read through the programming manuals for the first 2 (honeywell). I see no indication you can use the outdoor sensor for anything other than displaying the outdoor temp. I know most of the high end devices have provisions for an outdoor sensor for setback, usually this is used to adjust a hydronic system from max set temp to a lower temp in the shoulder season so system temps don't overshoot. This is not even close to what Hack is looking for.


But from the way you worded it I thought that was what YOU were talking about in your first post.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

it's all good.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Ok, so this is a different model line but seems to be what I need> Any issue with this one?

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Honeywe...llary-Copper-bulb-sensing-element#qna-content

And this cover:

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Honeywell-34886A-Sun-Shield-for-Remote-Bulb-Controllers


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

Looks good.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

@Wirenuting You said that you used this shield. I have a couple questions.

The jaws of the bracket inside were way to far apart, they did not clip onto the bulb tight at all. It seemed like it was for a bulb twice the size of the one on the controller that I bought. I tried to squeeze them together, but it seemed as if it was going to break.

And what is the cork with the hole thru it for? Is the cork supposed to separate/insulate the bulb from the metal bracket in some way?

It didn't come with instructions nor can I find them online.

Honeywell 34886A


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

HackWork said:


> @Wirenuting You said that you used this shield. I have a couple questions.
> 
> The jaws of the bracket inside were way to far apart, they did not clip onto the bulb tight at all. It seemed like it was for a bulb twice the size of the one on the controller that I bought. I tried to squeeze them together, but it seemed as if it was going to break.
> 
> ...


The ones I use have a metal clip, but we recycle them all the time. They are a more sturdy and most of the real old ones are brass. The clips wear almost always metal and when broken we use a plastic wire clip like you see on yours. 
If the jaws are missing or broke, I just use a smaller black zip tie.

The cork might be for use with a smaller bulb? Never saw that before. 
I wish I had remembered about this thread, I was at work today and could have looked at what boxes we have on the shelf. 
I won't be back at work for another two weeks. We are doing a rotating crew for now. Getting paid to sit home is nice, but it's boring. On the bright side, I was paid OT today.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

See that little split in the cork? If you were running the bulb out through the metal cabinet on an AC/refrigeration unit, you slide the cork over the capillary to prevent it from getting damaged due to vibration.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Thank you everyone for your help, it worked perfectly. I ended up using the Honeywell T6031. It's amazing how simple it is, yet it's very accurate. The customer said it has been switching off exactly at 55 degrees like they wanted.

One of the issues that was bothering me was having the bulb touch metal because I read another brand that said it shouldn't, but then I went back to find that it actually said not to have it near metal that might vibrate. So touching metal is no issue. That was messing with me, I need to have all the dots connect or else my OCD won't allow me to look past it.

Another thing that I didn't like is that there are 407,000 of these things that are so similar or the same. Too many damn choices when the majority of them would work the same. So trying to figure out which one to use and why messed with me.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

You read the specs, did your research, and it turned out the way you wanted unlike other schmucks who wouldn't have taken the time.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

HackWork said:


> Thank you everyone for your help, it worked perfectly. I ended up using the Honeywell T6031. It's amazing how simple it is, yet it's very accurate. The customer said it has been switching off exactly at 55 degrees like they wanted.
> 
> One of the issues that was bothering me was having the bulb touch metal because I read another brand that said it shouldn't, but then I went back to find that it actually said not to have it near metal that might vibrate. So touching metal is no issue. That was messing with me, I need to have all the dots connect or else my OCD won't allow me to look past it.
> 
> Another thing that I didn't like is that there are 407,000 of these things that are so similar or the same. Too many damn choices when the majority of them would work the same. So trying to figure out which one to use and why messed with me.


You don't want to touch metal as that slight movement will wear a hole in the bulb after time. How long? Years. 
Even when we use them in a dry well that's inserted into a pipe, it takes years to wear the bulb out and punch a hole in it.. 

I'll agree about the many choices, I'm sure that sooner or later the will come in designer colors just to add to the confusion.. LoL


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

So here’s another question that I just thought of. These types of controllers are rated for 120V, some even higher. Yet there’s no provision for grounding. So there’s no code compliant way to run cable to these units.

Sure, you can run pipe to it or even run cable to a box and then nipple into these controllers. But I remember the Honeywell aquastats of the same design also not having a ground screw. And when it’s mounted to a pipe you pretty much have to run cable to it.

What gives?


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## CMP (Oct 30, 2019)

So does that imply that it got hacked? :devil3:



Just thinking out loud. I bet you know how to install a ground screw, but did you?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

CMP said:


> So does that imply that it got hacked? :devil3:
> 
> 
> 
> Just thinking out loud. I bet you know how to install a ground screw, but did you?


Installing a ground screw is not compliant. I’ve never seen an appliance or device rated for 120V that didn’t have a provision for grounding


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

HackWork said:


> So here’s another question that I just thought of. These types of controllers are rated for 120V, some even higher. Yet there’s no provision for grounding. So there’s no code compliant way to run cable to these units.
> 
> Sure, you can run pipe to it or even run cable to a box and then nipple into these controllers. But I remember the Honeywell aquastats of the same design also not having a ground screw. And when it’s mounted to a pipe you pretty much have to run cable to it.
> 
> What gives?


I just pipe everything I see and can touch. 
I've only run about 1/2 mile of rope in the past 30 years.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Wirenuting said:


> I just pipe everything I see and can touch.
> I've only run about 1/2 mile of rope in the past 30 years.


Even if it’s on a heating or water pipe?


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

Dumb questions: is it floating 120v? What's the max current? Is it fed from a control board? What happens if it shorts? Just a puff smoke if that from the board? Call the manufacturer?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Bird dog said:


> Dumb questions: is it floating 120v? What's the max current? Is it fed from a control board? What happens if it shorts? Just a puff smoke if that from the board?


There’s nothing limiting it to what you mentioned. The specs say 120-240V.


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## JoeSparky (Mar 25, 2010)

You are overthinking this Hax. Heating bulb thermostat. Put the sensor outside without kinking the coil. Attach it outside with a 3/8 metal 1 hole clip, plastic clips or a few of @99cents gay DIY 2 nail plastic staples. Get creative on grounding it. You are a smart and handsome:biggrin: guy. Figure it out. This is not the type of job that any of us get inspected anyways. Some of that type of thermostat have a ground screw or a hole for one in a $hitty location next to the K.O. on the bottom.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I’m curious why a very commonly used item from a huge company like Honeywell would not have a provision for grounding. It’s just a question.


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## CMP (Oct 30, 2019)

Normally the ground screw is on the bottom entry. Maybe you got some old stock ones?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Nope, not old. And anyone who has installed these Honeywell type devices knows that there’s no ground screw or hole as I mentioned.

Here’s the model I installed. But like I said, it’s the same with all the Honeywell aquastats I have installed.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

HackWork said:


> Even if it’s on a heating or water pipe?


Yes, nothing less then a smooth sailing run and a box offset that no one will ever see.


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## CMP (Oct 30, 2019)

I have several used models on the shelf, of various brands including Honeywell, White Rogers, and others. Every one I have, has the ground screw in the same location. Must be with the specific model you ordered or be old stock.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

HackWork said:


> Nope, not old. And anyone who has installed these Honeywell type devices knows that there’s no ground screw or hole as I mentioned.
> 
> Here’s the model I installed. But like I said, it’s the same with all the Honeywell aquastats I have installed.
> 
> View attachment 143058



For the rare times that we ran a ground wire on that style we would wrap the wire around the mounting screw or self tap a ground screw into it. 
If you used rope to yours, just do as we did and wrap the screw and run. 

Normally we pipe to the device and use a small piece of greenfield to go into it.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Wirenuting said:


> For the rare times that we ran a ground wire on that style we would wrap the wire around the mounting screw or self tap a ground screw into it.
> If you used rope to yours, just do as we did and wrap the screw and run.
> 
> Normally we pipe to the device and use a small piece of greenfield to go into it.


Gotcha. I just find it odd that Honeywell doesn’t include a provision for grounding and that it is listed for 120/240V without it.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

CMP said:


> I have several used models on the shelf, of various brands including Honeywell, White Rogers, and others. Every one I have, has the ground screw in the same location. Must be with the specific model you ordered or be old stock.


You keep saying old stock, are you talking about from 50+ years ago before grounding was required?


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## CMP (Oct 30, 2019)

I got old ones and new ones. Many different cap tube styles and lengths, and they all have the ground screw.


Here is you a new model for sale that has the same screw configuration.
https://www.galco.com/shop/T6031A-Refrigeration-Controller-Honeywell-Temperature-Control-Controllers


I showed you one already with a ground screw but you insist.


> And anyone who has installed these Honeywell type devices knows that there’s no ground screw or hole as I mentioned.



My work is done here...


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

CMP said:


> I got old ones and new ones. Many different cap tube styles and lengths, and they all have the ground screw.
> 
> 
> Here is you a new model for sale that has the same screw configuration.
> ...


hyg Hax :biggrin:

Questions? Contact Us Now! 

800-575-5562
_______________
Hax uses crayons


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

CMP said:


> My work is done here...


 Yes, you crapped the thread nicely.

Anyone who has installed these type of devices know that they often come without a provision for grounding. They are not all 50 year old stock, it’s the way the come. 

If you don’t know the answer, just don’t post.


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## JoeSparky (Mar 25, 2010)

This is the one you told us you were buying. Looks like there is a ground screw in that pic. Maybe you really did just get old stock. I doubt it is 50 years old. Not sure it applies here, but the NEC changed rules for grounding switches in '99. Could be 21ish years old.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Greenlee drill tap it 1032 and be done with it. I'd like to say I've seen it both with the bond screw and without. Some of the pumps with plastic housings are coming without a bond screw or wire because there's nothing to bond to. On the other hand, you never know what'll replace that so I leave a bond wire anyway. They let plumbers do some of the wiring and they seem to think the bonding is optional.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

JoeSparky said:


> This is the one you told us you were buying.


 I ended up buying the T6031C1009 as recommended on the first page. Here is the picture of it:












> Maybe you really did just get old stock. I doubt it is 50 years old. Not sure it applies here, but the NEC changed rules for grounding switches in '99. Could be 21ish years old.


Now you are being silly. It's not 21 years old. Wirenutting also said that he sees them without grounding provisions. 

I have seen a very limited amount of these types of things, yet none of them has a provision for grounding. I wired up a circulator pump to a Honeywell aquastat that the plumber attached to the hot water line. I used MC cable and was shocked when I opened the aquastat and did not find a way to ground it. I looked it up and it was rated for 120V, so I couldn't figure it out.

That is why I am curious.

When I do a Google image search for Honeywell aquastat, none of them have the ground screw that the one picture posted here has. I think anyone with actual experience with these will agree that they generally don't have a ground screw.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

nrp3 said:


> Greenlee drill tap it 1032 and be done with it.


I am not asking how to do it, I am trying to learn the reason why it doesn't have it in the first place. I find it incredible that I have to defend myself on this.

Do you know of any other UL listed metal bodied appliance/device rated for 120/240V that doesn't have a provision for grounding?


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

JoeSparky said:


> This is the one you told us you were buying. Looks like there is a ground screw in that pic. Maybe you really did just get old stock. I doubt it is 50 years old. Not sure it applies here, but the NEC changed rules for grounding switches in '99. Could be 21ish years old.


The Honeywell web site right now, today, 2020 

https://customer.honeywell.com/en-US/Pages/Product.aspx?cat=HonECC%2520Catalog&pid=T6031C1009/U&category=T6031&catpath=1.1.1.3.13&rank=0&v1=Sort.1.Product.Rank&asc=1 

links to a document that is dated 1983, 

https://customer.honeywell.com/resources/Techlit/TechLitDocuments/63-0000s/63-2035.pdf

and it does not show a ground screw or threaded hole in the picture, and there is no ground wire or terminal or connection shown in the wiring diagrams. 

If it's a commercial product made for boiler rooms maybe it was never designed to go on the end of a piece of NM so they never bothered with a ground screw, grounded by either conduit or cable armor. 

If you put it on a metal box, you're all set.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Who knows, maybe they have a bunch of the back plates used for most all of the series, low and line voltage, possible some come with or without. I just am used to running a bond wire to everything and not relying on conduit for the bond so I just add the screw if its not there. Those things are small and not a lot of real estate to attach to. The why would be interesting to know, probably someone there at Honeywell who knows.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

splatz said:


> The Honeywell web site
> 
> https://customer.honeywell.com/en-US/Pages/Product.aspx?cat=HonECC%2520Catalog&pid=T6031C1009/U&category=T6031&catpath=1.1.1.3.13&rank=0&v1=Sort.1.Product.Rank&asc=1
> 
> ...


Many of their aquastats are made to mount directly to a water pipe, so running conduit to it seems odd. 

I wonder how it got listed for 120/240V without the grounding provision.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

HackWork said:


> Many of their aquastats are made to mount directly to a water pipe, so running conduit to it seems odd.
> 
> I wonder how it got listed for 120/240V without the grounding provision.


When we run to a heating pipe we will mount the box close the the pipe and then slip the bulb into the dry well. That's why you can get ones with different bulb lengths. 

If they sensor does not utilize a bulb and is contact only, those ones come with crappy nylon straps. We mount them directly to the pipe. The back plate for those have provisions for the mounting strap. I don't like them. 
They also have ones that mount remotely and the contact bulb then mounts to the pipe using the provided rubber tape. The contact ones don't seem to last as long as the pipes rust so badly over the years. 

They have contact and immersion bulbs and ones for just remote temp sensing. 

I prefer the dry well bulbs over the immersion ones. It sucks to try to close the valves and swap them put. 1/2 the time we can't isolate due to old valves never being cycled, the wrong valve being spect in the original install or no valves beyond a balancing valve. Even a gate valve installed wrong won't isolate when crud builds up in the seat.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

HackWork said:


> I am not asking how to do it, I am trying to learn the reason why it doesn't have it in the first place. I find it incredible that I have to defend myself on this.
> 
> Do you know of any other UL listed metal bodied appliance/device rated for 120/240V that doesn't have a provision for grounding?


If it is metal and you've piped to it & used listed fittings, would a ground screw be required? After all it is a listed device that obviously does not require a ground screw. That's my view of it. 


Yes suppliers will send old stock. With the advent of LV DDC systems, these types of controls have fallen out of favor with the commercial market. We still receive old stock stuff at times. But we are also 10 years behind the rest of the world. 
There is more money to be made with installing a complete building automation system because the older controls are "obsolete". Who wants to install a device that won't wear out in 10 years? 

Energy audits and energy savings programs were all the rage 15 years ago. Out with the old controls that never broke and in with the new. We will lend you the money to replace the controls and you can pay us back over 10 years. Of course this included replacing those evil T12 flourecent ballets and tubes. The utility companies were tripping over each other doing this in the late 90's and early 2000's. It was a federally backed and allowed program that put a lot of people to work when the economy was struggling.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Wirenuting said:


> If it is metal and you've piped to it & used listed fittings, would a ground screw be required? After all it is a listed device that obviously does not require a ground screw. That's my view of it.


 Then I would think it would specify that it requires metallic conduit.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

HackWork said:


> Then I would think it would specify that it requires metallic conduit.


I believe your right. But remember, we only pipe here. Rope is evil and causes cows to start fires and burn cities down. 

Every sump pump and refrigerator must be on a GFCI and connected to an arc fault breaker and tie all handles together in a panel because it's safer for the children that stick plastic Sporks into tamper resistant receptacles. lain: 
Oh ya, wrap tape around all wire nuts just to be even super duper safer. 


*The only time I've ever seen one of these sensors go to ground was when someone didn't put the wire under the screw. 
When they break the microswitch just stops working or the bulb has been compromised.


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## CMP (Oct 30, 2019)

HackWork said:


> I am not asking how to do it, I am trying to learn the reason why it doesn't have it in the first place. I find it incredible that I have to defend myself on this.
> 
> Do you know of any other UL listed metal bodied appliance/device rated for 120/240V that doesn't have a provision for grounding?



Couple of pointers for you to learn from.
You make some assumptions that are incorrect from the onset. 

First, that their all called an Aquastat, that implies its intended for measuring water or liquid temperature. But your trying to measure air temperature. The model you purchased is called an Ambistat Temperature Controller, made for measuring air. The type you desired, with a ground screw factory installed is called a Remote Temp Controller. These names are not my choices, but what Honeywell named them.

Second, is that you assume that all models are UL Listed. UL has differing listings, and not all are equal. The model you chose has a UL component listing, and is not directly approved for field use. Component listing is for use by manufacturers, who use the part as part of their product, and they get their completed product listed as a package, and obtain a UL file number to place in their product specifications.

These file numbers are what is used for inspectors, engineers, and insurance investigators use to look up a products approval or not. Component listing and UL Listed are two different things, one is approved for field use and the other is not. Anyone can check if a product is UL listed or not at their public site. https://iq.ulprospector.com/en

Third, is you have a pretty sharp tongue, and like to talk down to people, like you know more than anyone else here, on any subject. It's hard to want to help someone that has that type attitude. But I get that some folks here admire that type of talk, each to his own. 

Here is some follow up information, for you to follow up on, if you truly want to learn why the product you picked was lacking a simple ground screw to be UL Listed for field use.

The product page for the T6031C1009 product you purchased, that only has a component listing. Vendor Page with photo.

A product page for a very similar T675A1516 that has a UL listing and file number that is approved for field use, and contains a ground screw.
Vendor Page with photo.


Good day to you, and I hope you find the information informative.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

CMP said:


> Couple of pointers for you to learn from.
> You make some assumptions that are incorrect from the onset.
> 
> First, that their all called an Aquastat


I never called them all aquastats. The fact that you just said this shows how much of a troll and an asshole you are. You are telling me about my "wrong assumptions from the onset" and then go on to lie about what I said. 

I said that many of these types of devices that I have seen are aquastats, I was not labelling them all that, nor would it matter if I did.

You said that you were done last night, but apparently you just couldn't control yourself.

I am not going to read anything else that you say because you have proven yourself to be a giant dooshbag. I maintain that I see it as being odd that Honeywell would put out an appliance/device with a metal body rated for 120/240V without provisions for grounding. If that bothers you so much, kill yourself.


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## CMP (Oct 30, 2019)

*Mr Tough Hack, Could Not Resist, It's All Good*



HackWork said:


> When I do a Google image search for Honeywell aquastat, none of them have the ground screw that the one picture posted here has. I think anyone with actual experience with these will agree that they generally don't have a ground screw.



And as I expected, you really don't want to know why. You just want to bloviate like you normally do.




> I am not going to read anything else that you say because you have proven yourself to be a giant dooshbag. I maintain that I see it as being odd that Honeywell would put out an appliance/device with a metal body rated for 120/240V without provisions for grounding. If that bothers you so much, kill yourself.



Don't read this, it may cause you to blow a gasket.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

CMP said:


> And as I expected, you really don't want to know why. You just want to bloviate like you normally do.


I do want to know, and I greatly appreciate those who have helped. But I have disliked you since your first post (I told you, remember?) and you continue to prove why.

It's clear that you don't know the answer to my question, which in itself is fine. But you have posted nothing but garbage to try to sound smart and obfuscate the issue. If you talk a lot and post links to the manufacturer's website (that I posted a link to earlier in the thread) and a vendor website (which is the exact vendor I posted that I purchased it from) you might make yourself look smart, or at least that is what you thought, huh?

So tell me again how the only reason why all of these devices that wirenutting and I have seen without a ground screw are just "old stock"... :vs_laugh:

Or, just shut up and stop posting like you said you were going to do.


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## CMP (Oct 30, 2019)

HackWork said:


> It's clear that you don't know the answer to my question, which in itself is fine. But you have posted nothing but garbage to try to sound smart and obfuscate the issue. Or, just shut up and stop posting like you said you were going to do.



It's clear your not a very good reader of specs, but there was an answer in there. Let me try again. From the product listings



T6031C1009 Approvals, Underwriters Laboratories Inc. Component Listed


T675A1516 Approvals, Underwriters Laboratories Inc. UL Listed: E4436, Vol. 4, Sec. 11, Guide XAPX




> Installing a ground screw is not compliant. I’ve never seen an appliance or device rated for 120V that didn’t have a provision for grounding



And neither is using a product that is not UL Listed for field use...

*
*


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

CMP said:


> It's clear your not a very good reader of specs, but there was an answer in there.


Answer in where? It must have been blocked by you saying that all the units that we've seen without ground screws are just "old stock".


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## CMP (Oct 30, 2019)

From the product listings.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

CMP said:


> From the product listings.


You've ruined it.


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## CMP (Oct 30, 2019)

I'm not sorry, but can I call it done now? I'd have just put a screw in it, but that's just me.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

CMP said:


> I'm not sorry, but can I call it done now? I'd have just put a screw in it, but that's just me.


I used a metallic offset nipple into a 1900 box that I installed a bypass switch in, so its grounded thru that.

I still think it is very odd that a mainstream device like this from a huge company is rated for 120/240V and doesn't have a provision for grounding.


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## JoeSparky (Mar 25, 2010)

CMP said:


> Couple of pointers for you to learn from.
> You make some assumptions that are incorrect from the onset.
> 
> First, that their all called an Aquastat, that implies its intended for measuring water or liquid temperature. But your trying to measure air temperature. The model you purchased is called an Ambistat Temperature Controller, made for measuring air. The type you desired, with a ground screw factory installed is called a Remote Temp Controller. These names are not my choices, but what Honeywell named them.
> ...


I was about to click the like button until you started talking smack about Hax:vs_mad: You have made a powerful enemy today. He is just a premadonna a$shole just like the rest of us premadonna as$hole electricians:devil3: 
The first half of your post was all good info and probably the correct answer hack was looking for.


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## CMP (Oct 30, 2019)

I would think that they don't add the screw because it would need to be re-listed and that would cost them money, and they work just fine how they are. And they do have many models listed on the UL spec page, that are UL Listed, and would have the screw, for those who require that.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

CMP said:


> I would think that they don't add the screw because it would need to be re-listed and that would cost them money, and they work just fine how they are. And they do have many models listed on the UL spec page, that are UL Listed, and would have the screw, for those who require that.


See, if you posted this at the very beginning I would have accepted it as the reason and thanked you, and then complained that they should at least put in their specs whether it's groundable or not so that you don't have to try to figure it out via pictures.


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## CMP (Oct 30, 2019)

JoeSparky said:


> I was about to click the like button until you started talking smack about Hax:vs_mad: You have made a powerful enemy today. He is just a premadonna a$shole just like the rest of us premadonna as$hole electricians:devil3:
> The first half of your post was all good info and probably the correct answer hack was looking for.



Have no fear about Hack, like he already told you, he threatened from the very beginning. I'm not fearful, if I was I wouldn't remind him of this blunder back here.
https://www.electriciantalk.com/f2/pushmatic-panel-mlo-277092/#post5270986
:devil3:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

JoeSparky said:


> I was about to click the like button until you started talking smack about Hax:vs_mad: You have made a powerful enemy today. He is just a premadonna a$shole just like the rest of us premadonna as$hole electricians:devil3:
> The first half of your post was all good info and probably the correct answer hack was looking for.


But the first part is where he lied and said that I assumed all of them were aquastats. Now that you agreed with him, I am going to have to take actions against you. I'm still not sure what I am going to do, but it might be pretty serious, like not talking to you ever again for 10 minutes.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

CMP said:


> Have no fear about Hack, like he already told you, he threatened from the very beginning. I'm not fearful, if I was I wouldn't remind him of this blunder back here.
> https://www.electriciantalk.com/f2/pushmatic-panel-mlo-277092/#post5270986
> :devil3:


Now this is the way to become friends. Now you're learning.


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## CMP (Oct 30, 2019)

For the record, for those too lazy to look, here is a partial list of UL Listed models from UL E4436. 
*Temperature-indicating and -Regulating Equipment*




*Temperature controllers* Model(s) L4006G*, L6076B1023, T475A, T668A, T675-A1169, T675-A1797, T675-A1805, T675A1003, T675A1011, T675A1029, T675A1037, T675A1045, T675A1052, T675A1060, T675A1094, T675A1102, T675A1110, T675A1128, T675A1136, T675A1144, T675A1151, T675A1177, T675A1185, T675A1193, T675A1201, T675A1219, T675A1227, T675A1235, T675A1243, T675A1250, T675A1268, T675A1276, T675A1284, T675A1300, T675A1318, T675A1326, T675A1334, T675A1417, T675A1425, T675A1433, T675A1441, T675A1458, T675A1466, T675A1474, T675A1490, T675A1508, T675A1516, T675A1524, T675A1532, T675A1540, T675A1557, T675A1565, T675A1698, T675A1706, T675A1714, T675A1722, T675A1755, T675A1763, T675A1771, T675A1789, T675A1813, T675A1821, T675A1839, T675A1870, T675A1938, T675A1946, T675A2126, T675F1008, T675F1016, T675F1024, T675F1032, T678B, T678C1005, T678C1013, T678C1021, T678F1002, T678F1010, T7079A+, T7079B, T7079B+, T991E, T991F


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

HackWork said:


> I used a metallic offset nipple into a 1900 box that I installed a bypass switch in, so its grounded thru that.


Wouldn’t that be considered the grounding path if listed offset nipple and box is used? That’s my take on it. 


The bypass is a 3-way switch? :smile:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Wirenuting said:


> Wouldn’t that be considered the grounding path if listed offset nipple and box is used? That’s my take on it.


 Absolutely, just like if I piped it in. It is grounded to code.



> The bypass is a 3-way switch? :smile:


Yes sir, I figured that one out all by myself :biggrin:


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

CMP said:


> For the record, for those too lazy to look, here is a partial list of UL Listed models from UL E4436.
> *Temperature-indicating and -Regulating Equipment*
> 
> 
> ...


I liked your earlier post explaining about listing and listed parts it was informative.
The online catalog sucs when viewed on a cell and is hard to navigate for me. 
I like the old paper analog catalog better. Maybe I’ll try to get a few new ones. But just like getting a new square D catalog, it’s like pulling teeth from a dead dog at work. 

We do get old stock from some of our suppliers we were able to order from a handful of local ones until about 3 years ago. Now everything goes out to the lowest bidder. It can take weeks or months to get the wrong item.


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## CMP (Oct 30, 2019)

I can relate, I call it Amazon speed.



That's why I hang onto parts leftover from jobs, many times I can use what I have on hand. It's a lot easier that way.


Another UL tidbit, and 2020 NEC rule on used and reconditioned equipment prohibitions.

https://www.ul.com/news/reconditioned-electrical-equipment-2020-nec-guide


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## JoeSparky (Mar 25, 2010)

HackWork said:


> But the first part is where he lied and said that I assumed all of them were aquastats. Now that you agreed with him, I am going to have to take actions against you. I'm still not sure what I am going to do, but it might be pretty serious, like not talking to you ever again for 10 minutes.


You are right. the middle third of the post was the info you have been looking for. All of them are aquastats or thermostats. They are both the same thing when you are talking about temperature sensors. The only difference is where you stick the probe and what part of P-town you install it in:devil3:


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## zchris_99 (May 1, 2020)

*May work*

Not sure price range, but something like the controlbyweb x-410 may do the trick. They have internal logic that would allow you to modify at any time. Also and external relay may be needed to handle that much amperage.


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