# I need electrical troubleshooting study helps



## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

Learn how to wire things properly & how it works, otherwise, all the troubleshooting lessons in the world won't help.


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

You need to learn what it does, how it does it and what each part plays. 

This requires a good understanding of the basics and learning to trust the meter rather than guessing.

After 2.5 years you should be able to go to any panel and make a list of the parts and what they do.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

It takes some time with real world experience. We don’t all work on the same things. What does it normally do? How long does it take to do what it should do? Is it too hot, smell funny, sound funny? Lots of variables.


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

There are some basic steps you use troubleshooting anything. Gathering evidence. Check for some obvious things right up front like checking for power, look listen feel, that sort of thing. Then recognize that there are hundreds of ways something can go wrong. Use Ockhams razor...choose the simplest reason that explains all the symptoms. Also divide and conquer...if you suspect an open in a bunch of connections, start in the middle. Also experience helps. Knowing what the most common problems are. Then come up with a test that if it passes, disproves your idea. If it passes it’s more evidence. Wash, rinse, repeat. Keep notes.


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## catsparky1 (Sep 24, 2013)

I think troubleshooting is all hands on . I don't think books can teach applied knowledge . As far as I have seen you can do it or you can't . It aint for everybody . My buddy works industrial and is a problem solving god but also has 25 years in industrial construction . Time in the seat is king .


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

catsparky1 said:


> I think troubleshooting is all hands on . I don't think books can teach applied knowledge . As far as I have seen you can do it or you can't . It aint for everybody . My buddy works industrial and is a problem solving god but also has 25 years in industrial construction . Time in the seat is king .


Some guys hate troubleshooting, because, they just want to wire it up & have it work.


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## catsparky1 (Sep 24, 2013)

I hate it but they make me do it cause im good at it . As stated time in the seat . 

I tell all of our guys this .
Day aint nothin you can f-ck up that I can't unf-ck !
So let it have it boys , but when I unf-ck it day is a price to pay !


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

Just ask the mechanic whats the last thing he/she worked on it.
Its quicker then trying to figure out what they broke.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

It helps me if I draw it out and make notes on paper. And, no, I don’t want to discuss drawing it on a phone or tablet. I like a scribbler better.


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

PM me with Email address. I will send a PDF book I wrote " Electrical troubleshooting for mechanics" It has pictures.

Anyone else want one PM also.

Cowboy


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

I saw this training movie in vocational school 40 years ago. It had cartoon electrons running down two lane roads as an aid in the training movie. The object of it was to get the students to learn in their minds how current flows (in dc currents at least) . The narrator in the film explained that as long as we thought about those running electrons with their legs it would make any troubleshooting problem easier for us to work out in our heads. He was right about that. That is until I ran across my first Carter 3 way.......... That F'r threw me off for a couple of hours till I figured out it was a Carter....


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## BlackEyeSpirit (Aug 7, 2020)

*Youtube - full of information*



Kmurd said:


> Hello, so I’ll cut right to the chase and ask if anyone knows of any study helps preferably animated videos or well laid out illustrations of any and all electrical troubleshooting guides or (non text book) books. I have plenty of text books but I need something more.
> I work in electrical maintenance and for the last 2.5 years I get stuck with the majority of PM’s and have no real electrical troubleshooting experience. Any helps or suggestions would be great!



Check out Jim Pytel - BigBadTech on Youtube, I myself have managed to download all 724 videos he has uploaded mention everything electrically related.


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## BlackEyeSpirit (Aug 7, 2020)

just the cowboy said:


> PM me with Email address. I will send a PDF book I wrote " Electrical troubleshooting for mechanics" It has pictures.
> 
> Anyone else want one PM also.
> 
> Cowboy


I've only got two posts up, now going on three posts. I could not email you, but could you email me ?


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## bill39 (Sep 4, 2009)

Do yourself a favor and buy this book. It has great diagrams for troubleshooting that are simple and to the point.


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

Industrial troubleshooting is an art form. You don't just pick up a brush and become an artist. It takes a thorough understanding of the concept. Start at the source.


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

Try bin95.

Troubleshooting of anything has the same steps. First thing is you need to check the quick and obvious thing you see, smell, hear? What do witnesses, operators tell you? What about other electricians? Listen to what they say as data, not gospel.

Find prints if you have them. For starters AB and Square D for instance have a book of sample starter diagrams and all VFD manuals have something similar even without manuals. Get copies and read them ahead of time. Make sure you understand how they work. Get in the habit of reading the manuals for the equipment you have. Why will become clear in a minute.

Carry a small pocket size note pad and pen. First check all the obvious things. Power, E-Stop set, that kind of thing. Then we get to the fun stuff.

With any troubleshooting you start with knowledge of how the machine is supposed to work. This is all that reading. Then something is going on that does not match how it is supposed to work. Sometimes operators insist it should do something it was not designed to ever do so this is where you need to know what’s going on in depth.

Second, come up with ideas that could explain why the equipment is acting differently.!There are dozens of ideas but any idea you have must be able to explain every issue that you are seeing. Pick the simplest explanation that explains all of the symptoms. This is called Ockhams razor.

Third, what test can you devise that proves your idea is wrong? For instance say you think there might be a broken E-Stop. Can you test for voltage at the master control relay to prove it’s not an E-Stop? This is the thing about troubleshooting...we can’t prove something is, only what it’s not. If it passes the test, scrap that idea and add it to your list of evidence. Especially on tough problems write it down for review. Try to do a confirming test once you think you’ve located the issue.

The tricky part is that really we can only test to verify something is working correctly. So when we start there is a giant list of things that can be the issue. Every test narrows this list. Test for power coming in, strike off anything outside the cabinet. Test on the component power leads, eliminate even the internal transformer. Ohm contacts, try manually opening and closing and checking. More things eliminated. Megger a motor...it is probably OK and safe to energize if it passes. So as you perform tests, each one should lead you towards the problem.

Do not jump on red herrings. If an overload trips most of the time it’s an overload...a mechanical issue. Does the shaft turn freely? Is something binding up? Operators and others are quick to blame the motor or the overload. If a breaker trips it is supposed to indicate an electrical problem. Check for that and only after detailed hunt for the electrical issue it should be obvious that if you are pulling say 50 A on all three legs and a 70 A breaker trips, it’s defective.

Don’t assume anything is wrong. Lots of times operators accidentally leave an E-Stop pushed in or the cleaning crew unplugged something. Or they have been using it incorrectly all along. You name it, I’ve heard it. Learn to filter what someone tells you.

Try not to change the equipment state when you try to troubleshoot and as with the previous point don’t change parts until you confirm the issue unless it’s part of troubleshooting. Once you change equipment state you can lose the issue. So for instance you could have a welded contact in a contactor. So if you open the contactor first and knock everythjng around to where you unstick the welder tip, you lost your evidence. Parts changers are notorious for this. They just start swapping parts without a clue whether it is good or bad. Sometimes this works. Sometimes they break wires, lose pieces, forget to set dip switches, clear settings, and create far more problems to the point where now you are chasing multiple problems at a time. Second problem with changing state is the piss poor troubleshooting practices of IT people. So say a computer program locks up. The first thing they do is reboot. So if that works, did they actually fix anything? Is there anything that prevents it from happening again?

Also use the principle of divide and conquer. It’s not a requirement but makes you faster. Say you don’t have an E-Stop signal and there are ten E-Stops. Instead of testing for voltage at E-Stop 1, start at E-Stop 5. Then say you have voltage there jump to E-Stop 8. If no power there go to 7. Aha found broke wire in 3 steps. If you did 1, 2, 3...you’d have to do 7 tests to find it.

There are optimizations. Ockham should almost mean try the simplest test first instead of the simplest explanation. If you suspect a defective breaker first do the NEMA AB-4 visual inspection. Test for welded poles. Then open all the downstream breakers to isolate the suspect breaker and close in one at a time. This isn’t testing the breaker itself but proving it’s not something else. Remember...troubleshooting is testing to prove what is working.

Try to avoid tracing wiring if you can. This goes back to that knowledge and prints. Tracing wiring is very slow, tedious, and can be error prone. It is the thing to avoid. If you get down to wire tracing, take out the note pad and start drawing a schematic as you go. Hunting neutral issues is the worst and there is no easy way to do it.

Keep a set of small jumpers handy. With relays often. It switches so fast you can’t see it. So pulling relays out of the socket and/or jumpering around suspected problems can help find the issue. So say you have an isolation relay for a 24 V signal to 120 V interlock contacts and you suspect the 24 V sensor but it only energizes for a fraction of a second. You might set your meter on “MAX” and try to cycle the machine and see if you see 24 V. Or you might just jumper it out and see if it works. I had a large 2500 HP vacuum contactor not working the other day. It had three micro switches as interlocks. Contactor would close then trip right back out but could be closed in test mode so mechanically and electrically it was fine. Trying to avoid tracing wire (nothing labeled, not easy to do) so I jumpered each one until I verified the faulty one. Turns out when the switch moves a little it would make the drop out when it fully engaged. So replacing it fixed the issue.

This is really all there is to it. You can find the issue on anything with the same procedure, electrical or mechanical. The tough part at the beginning is that you don’t know the equipment in intimate detail and you don’t know what typical failures are or what to look for. So to start out you are much slower at it.

By way of example yesterday I went to a sewage plant. They had a fairly new panel. Inside where rows of manual motor starters, contactors, and overload relays. There was some kind of temporary wiring and based on what they were saying about what happened it sounded like the MMS and contactor welded shut. I tested the MMS and everything looked normal (0 V at load terminals when off, 480 V when on). Contactor however had an open phase and two welded ones, with coil de-energized.’Operator said smoke came out of motor. Megger reading was dead shorted. MMS and overload minimum settings were larger than the motor rating and the dials were set to max. So we had no protection at all. The contactor welded at some point and when it “shut off” the motor single phased and burned up. Without protection nothing tripped or did so properly. This is where it gets confusing what really happened. They very well could have miswired the motor (12 lead) and the AIC on the MMS might be undersized never mind checking the other motors to see if there is more work to do.!But I needed parts just to rebuild the entire starter so I figured I’d stop there. I was only there 15 minutes and it was in the way home so I’ll just charge for parts and the installation. It’s a new customer.

So the key here was just recognizing a standard starter circuit and basic motor testing. Testing starters should take a few minutes and it’s something you do all the time. I also knew to pick up on the important things said (smoke came out if motor, something about tripping, something about contactor not working right) and ignore most of the rest. I tested the contactor, motor, and MMS power paths because that’s really all there is. I called the warehouse to order parts while I stood there so I could capture the important details like how many NO and NC contacts and how they were arranged.

None of this is anything you can’t do with the same tools you used for PMs. The four big hurdles are:
1. Attitude. Can’t stress this enough. You have to sweat confidence. 100% total positive mental attitude. Block everything else out. Phone on mute. You are the best that ever lived. You are going to figure it out. Don’t think about breaks, lunch, or going home. Just focus on the one thing you are going to do. You own it. Everyone is counting on you. Rude in on the white horse and slay the dragon. Save the day. Troubleshooting can be a rush, it’s fire fighting. And the attitude is what carries you through when you are fighting a tough one. Nothing feels worse than when you get shown up by somebody else that figures it out first.
2. Troubleshooters seem to be almost random what they are doing if you try to watch somebody do it. Many haven’t ever had a class or any training on generic troubleshooting so they can’t explain what they are doing. If you prefer more hands on its expensive and same as what I just explained but Trainco does a great job. Rockwell’s classes suck by comparison. I always thought I was missing something obvious but I wasn’t.
3. Learning intimate details about how buttons, contactors, breakers, relays, motors
and transformers all work (or not) and how to test them. There is a lot of info in equipment manuals, some good some bad. Get used to reading constantly especially at first.
4. There are some basic things about how and why electrical equipment fails, and what the typical failures are. It is not really written down anywhere or at least in one place. The US military created huge databases of typical failure rates on equipment. The whole idea was to set PM frequencies on the data, what actually happened is they found out that 60% of the key factors in equipment failure rates are environmental. So there is no book because you learn as you go for your plants specific issues.


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## NoBot (Oct 12, 2019)

One of the most valuable methods I ever learned for troubleshooting is using a Decision Tree.
The Decision Tree was taught in a college course I took years ago. It's not something I can explain in a few paragraphs.
Decision Trees are normally used to help make a decision. If used properly, it can also be used for troubleshooting.
There can be many versions but here's one I found on Google to give you an idea of how it works.


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## bill39 (Sep 4, 2009)

gpop said:


> Just ask the mechanic whats the last thing he/she worked on it.
> Its quicker then trying to figure out what they broke.


The above is so important it needs to be re-emphasized: 
IT IS NOT ALWAYS AN ELECTRICAL PROBLEM!!

Listen for air leaks, grinding metal, etc.


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

bill39 said:


> The above is so important it needs to be re-emphasized:
> IT IS NOT ALWAYS AN ELECTRICAL PROBLEM!!
> 
> Listen for air leaks, grinding metal, etc.


dust on grease fittings (yes that was the problem, no lubrication)


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## QMED (Sep 14, 2016)

https://www.engbookspdf.com

There are a lot of good books for free in here.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

QMED said:


> https://www.engbookspdf.com
> 
> There are a lot of good books for free in here.


This is a rather outstanding contribution to the forum. Mahalo. 

By golly ladies and gentlemen, *This ^^^ was your QMED Tip Of The Day!*


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## BillyMac59 (Sep 12, 2019)

Troubleshooting guides - if found - may help. Given that you are already in the field, you need task/machine troubleshooting guides. Most manufacturers provide this with their supplied documentation along with wiring diagrams. Study and become familiar with them. 
REMEMBER: The basic definition of troubleshooting is to compare what you have/see to what you are supposed to have/see. If available, ask the owner/machine operator what happened/didn't happen. This can be risky if you don't have an established working relationship. After 30+ years of frontline maintenance in an industrial environment, I've learned that most valuable tool I have is a skilled operator.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

FOR ME

Noting but nothing helped more than OJT. It is hard for a book or video to detail how to resolve most troubling shooting problems.


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

brian john said:


> FOR ME
> 
> Noting but nothing helped more than OJT. It is hard for a book or video to detail how to resolve most troubling shooting problems.


It's a skill just like running pipe.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

I should add when I was trying to learn everything I could about our trade, I bought every book and magazine I could find and wore the pages thin reading and trying to figure out WTF they were discussing.. Today I would be in information overload with all available on the WWW.


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## bill39 (Sep 4, 2009)

brian john said:


> I should add when I was trying to learn everything I could about our trade, I bought every book and magazine I could find and wore the pages thin reading and trying to figure out WTF they were discussing.. Today I would be in information overload with all available on the WWW.


Brian John: all of that reading evidently paid off. Just from reading some of your posts it appears you are a well-rounded electrician. Those are hard to come by.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

bill39 said:


> Brian John: all of that reading evidently paid off. Just from reading some of your posts it appears you are a well-rounded electrician. Those are hard to come by.


Bill: Thank you but having 50 years in the trade I should have learned a little even if by accident.


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