# Means of disconnect



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

What's your question. If you want to know if it is compliant to use the panel overcurrent protective device as a disconnect then yes however, in commercial places you usually want to make sure that you wont mistakenly shut off the wrong machine. The disconnect at the unit is generally the accepted method


----------



## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

Code says secondary disconnects required within line of sight if not serviced by qualified personnel. So most industrial plants use them only if they usually do it or it's a pain getting to the disconnect because they have electricians on staff. Doesn't matter if it's 1000 feet away on a mezzanine, visible is visible.

There is also a requirement that if it has a disconnect, it's visible break for LOTO purposes. This is an OSHA regulation. Some people get confused and assume this means if it's breaker only, there must be a disconnect. That isn't what OSHA says, only that there is a viewing window if you use a disconnect for lockout. This is especially common in utilities where visible break is an industry standard to support outside contractors during storm recovery. So this is a common fallacy.

It is also an absolute requirement with vacuum bottles used mostly for over 1000 V.

Most engineers will spout something off about being conservative which is a phrase they use to show that they don't know what they're doing. They heard something out of context from a buddy and spout it off with the authority attitude of a lawyer. That's why they put some clause in to require the electrician to verify that the engineer followed Code since most of them only know how to read and write specs. There is no graduation requirement or PE testing requirement where they have to know Code unlike licensed electricians.

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk


----------



## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

WronGun said:


> This is all within 25’ of the main panel and in clear sight. I usually tend to go over code on some things. I know this is a very basic question. However, I’ve always figured to install disconnects when the OCPD is located out of sight and out of reasonable distance for a safety shut-off.
> 
> However, the engineer is asking for disconnects on everything... even on 120v receptacles in this area. This is all good with me , I’ll do whatever they pay for ... I’m just trying to figure out if Im missing something here as far as disconnects go?
> 
> ...


I am thinking the engineer did went above the minuim code requirement and I am thinking also the insurance requirement aka OSHA related issue. 

The other reason I am thinking why they want to put disconnect switch even thru you are in sight and less than 10 meter away due some place they do not want to put LOTO on the breaker panel if they doing do the LOTO often. 

is this spot what you plan to work is wet location ? cuz you mention water jet.


----------



## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

frenchelectrican said:


> I am thinking the engineer did went above the minuim code requirement and I am thinking also the insurance requirement aka OSHA related issue.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Yes it is a wet location. Some of the outlets serve water recycling and filtration units. 

The drawing shows disconnects and a sub-panel listed as waterproof.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## gpop (May 14, 2018)

Think of it more as a visible means of disconnect. E.G safety personnel walking by can see that the machine is locked out.
Most of these places will not have a electrician doing the lock out as it may be done 10 times a shift so it needs to be well marked and easy to spot that its locked out. 

I would rather have a engineer request to many then having to beg to install one.


----------



## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

WronGun said:


> Yes it is a wet location. Some of the outlets serve water recycling and filtration units.
> 
> The drawing shows disconnects and a sub-panel listed as waterproof.
> 
> ...


Fair enough .,

Make sure you read the specs carefully when you get the correct disconnect switch due there is couple verison of waterproof disconnect switches so be aware of it.


----------



## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

gpop said:


> Think of it more as a visible means of disconnect. E.G safety personnel walking by can see that the machine is locked out.
> Most of these places will not have a electrician doing the lock out as it may be done 10 times a shift so it needs to be well marked and easy to spot that its locked out.
> 
> I would rather have a engineer request to many then having to beg to install one.




I agree with you... however , I was wondering if I missed something regarding code... I’m always fine with going above code. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

WronGun said:


> However, the engineer is asking for disconnects on everything... even on 120v receptacles in this area.


That's ridiculous.....disconnects on 120v receps.....it's called pulling the cord out. There is your disconnecting means....

We have some engineers over here too that throw everything at a project, including the kitchen sink, I think it's to justify their jobs??

I can't see how "engineering" things like this benefit the customer, and instead, just cost them money.

Sorry, seen this a lot. Didn't mean to go off on a rant.


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

No 'big red button' E stop for the saw?


----------



## gpop (May 14, 2018)

Cow said:


> That's ridiculous.....disconnects on 120v receps.....it's called pulling the cord out. There is your disconnecting means....
> 
> We have some engineers over here too that throw everything at a project, including the kitchen sink, I think it's to justify their jobs??
> 
> ...


Before becoming a sparky i use to be a cnc programmer/operator. I like the idea of everything having a lockout point. i would not be happy having to open the splash proof cover and unplugging items 10 times a day especially if the installer put the receptacle in a hard to reach place. (plus my hands might be wet or covered in oil that's going to make the cord sticky after a few weeks)

The cost for additional safety's/convenience on a new installation is such a small percentage of the machine total package cost no one is even going to notice. 

List it as a benefit to operator, safety, ergonomics or how ever you like. Customer requested it and its with in code so i do not see what the problem is.


----------



## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

MechanicalDVR said:


> No 'big red button' E stop for the saw?


That's not a legal lockout, even if you have the old locking button style. OSHA requires that the primary conductors are locked out, not controls. It's irritating but it's regulatory. 

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

paulengr said:


> That's not a legal lockout, even if you have the old locking button style. OSHA requires that the primary conductors are locked out, not controls. It's irritating but it's regulatory.


Not thinking of it as lockout.

Just figured with an engineer it would be a standard item to install.


----------



## HertzHound (Jan 22, 2019)

I agree with Cow in that some things are over engineered just to make them more money. The customer has no idea that equipment is being specified because the engineer is in bed with a manufacturer, or because they are getting paid a percentage of the job cost. 

Like doctors that are given paid vacations for pushing a brand of drug.


----------



## gpop (May 14, 2018)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Not thinking of it as lockout.
> 
> Just figured with an engineer it would be a standard item to install.


Most machines will come with these already installed. They will also have safety interlocks that are pre-installed. 

Funny thing is i have never seen a industrial machine that did not also come with a local disconnect installed.


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

gpop said:


> Most machines will come with these already installed. They will also have safety interlocks that are pre-installed.
> 
> *Funny thing is i have never seen a industrial machine that did not also come with a local disconnect installed.*


You did read the original post right?


Looking for discos on 120v receptacles!


----------



## gpop (May 14, 2018)

MechanicalDVR said:


> You did read the original post right?
> 
> 
> Looking for discos on 120v receptacles!


The main control panels normally have the Aux equipment receptacles built in to them.(mainly done so a e-stop system works all aux equipment).
If they do not then adding a disconnect before the receptacle would make life easier on the operator. 

If the floor plan is fluid (normally is when setting up machines that need access for loading and unloading) then anyone of the receptacles with in the area could be used so its cheaper to add them on new construction rather than have a electrician come back and install them later.

Maybe i view this different as i came from the Uk where its standard practice to turn off the power before unplugging equipment.


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

gpop said:


> The main control panels normally have the Aux equipment receptacles built in to them.(mainly done so a e-stop system works all aux equipment).
> If they do not then adding a disconnect before the receptacle would make life easier on the operator.
> 
> If the floor plan is fluid (normally is when setting up machines that need access for loading and unloading) then anyone of the receptacles with in the area could be used so its cheaper to add them on new construction rather than have a electrician come back and install them later.
> ...



Bingo!

I think you're right about that, forgot about your background!

I've never put a disco on a 120v receptacle.


----------



## cdslotz (Jun 10, 2008)

> However, the engineer is asking for disconnects on everything.


so....what's the question?


----------



## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

MechanicalDVR said:


> You did read the original post right?
> 
> 
> Looking for discos on 120v receptacles!


It's installed on the end of the cord........:biggrin:


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

joe-nwt said:


> It's installed on the end of the cord........:biggrin:



Yeah man, that's how I look at it too!


----------

