# What do you do for money when you're on the books?



## The_Modifier (Oct 24, 2009)

When I was part of a union hall, everyone told me "anything OUTSIDE of the trade".

The reason I left? I didn't like sitting at home "on the books" for over a year and a half wondering if I could afford dinner.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

spadenickel said:


> Hello all. I'm new to this site and am looking for advice.
> 
> I recently finished my apprenticeship and have been out of work for close to 3 months now. Currently I'm sitting for my company while they look for work. Doesn't seem to be happening. My unemployment benefits will run out on September 1st. Our books currently stand at 325 and they're telling new people who are going on it that it will be 2 years before they get called.
> 
> ...


Don't waste time SITTING getting stale if they are not going to call you back in ,In a short amount of time then take a job that is available it may be the best job you ever found.

All that sitting around will make you lazy and may never be able to snap out of it ,So go get the money don't allow your life and income to be controlled by others.

Go get the money.:thumbsup:


Welcome to the forum....:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## running dummy (Mar 19, 2009)

Don't get caught side jobbing... They WILL fine you. 

Stick to residential mostly and when doing commercial cover all your angles. BA's are crafty creatures and have ways of finding out if you are working non union. 

Try to get everything in cash and don't work for sheisty guys who are going to 1099 you. 

Or leave the union, pay the 12,000 for school and work non union. 


Some guys will give me **** for working under the table but the union sort of forces you to.


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## BurtiElectric (Jan 11, 2011)

Your brothers are not going to feed your kids. I would actively be seeking work if I were you


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## SVT CAMR (Apr 17, 2012)

What Harry said is true. You might never snap out of it. My advise is do what you need to do. Nobody cares about you more than you do. Don't buy into the BS. Keep moving forward don't look back. Wait for no one. :thumbsup:


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

running dummy said:


> Try to get everything in cash and don't work for sheisty guys who are going to 1099 you.


Correct me if I am wrong here...

Its "ok" to not pay taxes on income while collecting unemployment to avoid bosses that will 1099 you?


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## jordan_paul (Oct 4, 2011)

If I was fresh on the list and my BA told me it would be two years before I would work again, and said I can't work nonunion I would tell him to shove my union card right up his ass.

Remember: you are an electrician first, a union man second. If I was you, I would already be side-jobbing like crazy or working for a non-union EC.


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## BurtiElectric (Jan 11, 2011)

jordan_paul said:


> If I was fresh on the list and my BA told me it would be two years before I would work again, and said I can't work nonunion I would tell him to shove my union card right up his ass.
> 
> Remember: you are an electrician first, a union man second. If I was you, I would already be side-jobbing like crazy or working for a non-union EC.


I agree with the first part, but the side jobbing not so much. Too risky without the proper licenses and insurance


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## spadenickel (Jun 1, 2012)

Thank you all for the advice, I really do appreciate it.

And now if you'll forgive my ignorance, I have a few questions. And since this is the first time I've been in this situation and I'm not working to ask my fellow workers, I'll ask you guys.

What are some of the precautions I should take when looking for non-union work, specifically in regards to my union? I've heard somewhere (and I have no idea if this is true) that if there are a certain amount of guys on the books, then you can work non-union, but if it isn't over a certain number, you can't. I wonder that if it is true, it's one of our bylaws, or if that's just total bs.


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## jordan_paul (Oct 4, 2011)

spadenickel said:


> Thank you all for the advice, I really do appreciate it.
> 
> And now if you'll forgive my ignorance, I have a few questions. And since this is the first time I've been in this situation and I'm not working to ask my fellow workers, I'll ask you guys.
> 
> What are some of the precautions I should take when looking for non-union work, specifically in regards to my union? I've heard somewhere (and I have no idea if this is true) that *if there are a certain amount of guys on the books, then you can work non-union, but if it isn't over a certain number, you can't.* I wonder that if it is true, it's one of our bylaws, or if that's just total bs.


I haven't heard of it, but it depends on your local I suppose. In our local we are allowed to work non-union if we let the organizers and the BA know. We call it "salting".


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

spadenickel said:


> I wonder that if it is true, it's one of our bylaws, or if that's just total bs.


Get a copy of your CBA, By-Laws and Constitution....leave the rumors to the port-a-john walls.




jordan_paul said:


> In our local we are allowed to work non-union if we let the organizers and the BA know. We call it "salting".


I was under the impression "salting" is used when the goal was to organize a shop....and not just used to make ends meet.


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## jordan_paul (Oct 4, 2011)

Celtic said:


> I was under the impression "salting" is used when the goal was to organize a shop....and not just used to make ends meet.


Kill two birds with one stone.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

jordan_paul said:


> In our local we are allowed to work non-union if we let the organizers and the BA know. We call it "salting".





jordan_paul said:


> Kill two birds with one stone.


I don't think so.

Salting is an event that is initiated by the local, not the man.

Riddle me this....while you are "salting" [under your definition], and the rate is lower than your normal rate [as it commonly is]:
Who makes up the difference ?
Who is paying your benefits ?


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## al13nw4r3LC76 (Apr 6, 2009)

jordan_paul said:


> Kill two birds with one stone.


Yes but I'm willing to bet the last thing an open shop wants is some guy coming in spouting off about the union....


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## jordan_paul (Oct 4, 2011)

Celtic said:


> I don't think so.
> 
> Salting is an event that is initiated by the local, not the man.
> 
> ...


 
In our local salting is initiated by both the union and the man. If the man goes to the BA and says he has an oppurtunity to salt a company then he will let you salt. They even say at our monthly meetings if we have an oppurtunity to salt (a job offer from a buddy for instance) to let the BA know.

The rate we get is whatever the non-union EC pays, but our local will top up our benifits from the General Fund.


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

running dummy said:


> BA's are crafty creatures and have ways of finding out if you are working non union.


They should spend more time trying to get work for the guys on the books like they promised they would do when running.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

jordan_paul said:


> In our local salting is initiated by both the union and the man. If the man goes to the BA and says he has an oppurtunity to salt a company then he will let you salt. They even say at our monthly meetings if we have an oppurtunity to salt (a job offer from a buddy for instance) to let the BA know.
> 
> The rate we get is whatever the non-union EC pays, but our local will top up our benifits from the General Fund.


Thank you for clarifying for me. :thumbsup:


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## BurtiElectric (Jan 11, 2011)

Zog said:


> They should spend more time trying to get work for the guys on the books like they promised they would do when running.


Great point Zog


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

Celtic said:


> Correct me if I am wrong here...
> 
> Its "ok" to not pay taxes on income while collecting unemployment to avoid bosses that will 1099 you?


What a scumbag


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## jordan_paul (Oct 4, 2011)

al13nw4r3LC76 said:


> Yes but I'm willing to bet the last thing an open shop wants is some guy coming in spouting off about the union....


You don't try to unionize them at all. If I had to do it with a random company I've never worked for (I worked non-union for two years, I still get calls asking me to come back to work for them) I'd play the "I hate the union, they are a bunch of lazy dog-fu**ers and I actually want to work for my money" card. I'd just tell my local organizers I'm making progress, ask for panflets and just throw them out etc. What ever it takes to put food on *MY *table. I could never sit around for two years waiting for work while non-union is booming. I was actually raised with some work ethic.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

jordan_paul said:


> You don't try to unionize them at all. If I had to do it with a random company I've never worked for (I worked non-union for two years, I still get calls asking me to come back to work for them) I'd play the "I hate the union, they are a bunch of lazy dog-fu**ers and I actually want to work for my money" card. I'd just tell my local organizers I'm making progress, ask for panflets and just throw them out etc. What ever it takes to put food on *MY *table. I could never sit around for two years waiting for work while non-union is booming. I was actually raised with some work ethic.


What kind of BS is that?

Salting is attempting to organize that open shop...not just lining your own pockets.


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## BurtiElectric (Jan 11, 2011)

jordan_paul said:


> You don't try to unionize them at all. If I had to do it with a random company I've never worked for (I worked non-union for two years, I still get calls asking me to come back to work for them) I'd play the "I hate the union, they are a bunch of lazy dog-fu**ers and I actually want to work for my money" card. I'd just tell my local organizers I'm making progress, ask for panflets and just throw them out etc. What ever it takes to put food on MY table. I could never sit around for two years waiting for work while non-union is booming. I was actually raised with some work ethic.


So much for the brotherhood


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## jordan_paul (Oct 4, 2011)

Celtic said:


> What kind of BS is that?
> 
> Salting is attempting to organize that open shop...not just lining your own pockets.


Again, I put my family before my "brothers." Let's see the "brothers" make my truck payments when my unemployment runs out and theres no work in sight.


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## Awg-Dawg (Jan 23, 2007)

jordan_paul said:


> The rate we get is whatever the non-union EC pays, but our local will top up our benifits from the General Fund.


 
Why doesnt he get the same pay as the other "brothers"

It seems like he is taking one for the team...


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Celtic said:


> Correct me if I am wrong here...
> 
> Its "ok" to not pay taxes on income while collecting unemployment to avoid bosses that will 1099 you?



In my state, that's a crime that the state police are happy to investigate and make arrests. In fact, they've been advertising their investigations on the radio.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

The union guys that work for me on the side ussaulyy suck me off if I don't 1099 them. Everybody seems happy!


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Couple of choices and issues.

1st it is too late and I know what a joy kids are, but was now a good time to have another?

The wife may not like it, but have you considered traveling or relocating?

I really think a local that cannot hold up their end of the agreement should at a minimum look the other way.

Additionally if there is open shop work and no union work, maybe you guys have priced yourself out of the market. 

Lastly I know the union song and dance "No how, no way, take a cut in pay. Seems that might be the logical approach for the union but as we have seen Wisconsin unions are anything but logical.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

Agreed with BJ, don't have any more kids if you don't have a job.


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

Like George Carlin said.... You wanna eat, get out of the desert....

Everyone in here knocks Jersey but I have never been out of work since i got into the trade. 2001 

I think you can pretty much say the same thing for most of the North East....

Good luck with the baby...


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Celtic said:


> What kind of BS is that?
> 
> Salting is attempting to organize that open shop...not just lining your own pockets.



Salting is an attempt to force a company owner to do something he does not want to do. He has made choices, now if his employees do not like the choices the owner made, maybe they can join the union and warm the bench and watch the organized shops go out of business because it seems they have priced themselves out of the market.

Logic and organized just do not seem to belong in the same sentence.


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## running dummy (Mar 19, 2009)

Zog said:


> What a scumbag


Guys, I understand it's wrong, I do. But I'm damned if I do, damned if I don't. 

Damned if I work under the table because of obvious reasons. 

Damned if I go on payroll because the union does have its ways of finding out. I was working for a guy and the BA ran my license plate and called the surrounding locals and found out who I was. 


The comment about sheisty guys is when we already had a cash agreement and then He backs out on it and taxes you. 


Bottom line: I will do what I have to do to keep my house and put food on my table. Union or not. 
It just so happens I'm trained to be an electrician so that's what I am going to do. 

If you guys have a problem with that keep it to yourself, I was offering advise for the guy. I'm not trying to be an asshole but I got suckered in out of high school with the "promise" of a better life. Then brain washed to think the union is the only way to go. 

This is literally ALL I know about this trade. Do or die. And there is no ****ing way I will die in this trade. Worked too hard to be where I am with my knowledge and skill to just walk away, like it seems would rather you do.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

What is this? A How to break rules, morals, and standards thread?
These union punks always want the best of both worlds.


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## running dummy (Mar 19, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> What is this? A How to break rules, morals, and standards thread?
> These union punks always want the best of both worlds.


Id like to see how you would react if someone backed you into a corner and told you what you could, and couldnt do. Then threaten you with a 12,000 dollar fine if you wanted to leave. 

You would do the right thing and just lay down and take it, right? How's the view way up there?


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## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

running dummy said:


> Id like to see how you would react if someone backed you into a corner and told you what you could, and couldnt do. Then threaten you with a 12,000 dollar fine if you wanted to leave.
> 
> You would do the right thing and just lay down and take it, right? How's the view way up there?


Did you not know the rules when you joined the union?

You can't have it both ways. If you are going to enjoy the benefits of the union then you need to abide by their rules. Take the bad with the good.

I agree with you that it sucks to have someone tell you that you can't work in your trade and provide for your family, but those are the rules you agreed to follow. This is the main reason I choose to be non-union. I determine where I can work. If I get laid off today I'll be out banging on every non-union shops door tomorrow until I have a new job and nobody can fine me for it.

Some of you union guys seem to want to eat from both sides of the plate. You demand the contractors follow the agreement to the letter. You enjoy high wages and good benefits, but once things go south you say f the union I'm gonna do whatever I want. Lie, cheat, and steal. Be a man and honor the deal you made or get out.


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## running dummy (Mar 19, 2009)

EBFD6 said:


> Did you not know the rules when you joined the union?
> 
> You can't have it both ways. If you are going to enjoy the benefits of the union then you need to abide by their rules. Take the bad with the good.
> 
> ...


I agree with many of your points. 

I feel that if the union wants you to follow their rules they should be able to provide adequate work or allow the membership to operate under different by laws. Maybe the union needs to make changes and adapt to the new economic climate. Whether this means paying working dues out of pocket while working non union or something else. 

My personal situation is I was naive when I got in and am paying for it now.


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## wwilson174 (Apr 25, 2008)

brian john said:


> Couple of choices and issues.
> 
> 1st it is too late and I know what a joy kids are, but was now a good time to have another?
> 
> ...


 

The child is on the way and you ask is it too late??? Can you be more specific?


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

Oh yeah, and to answer the OP, I moonlight as a hitman.


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## B W E (May 1, 2011)

spadenickel said:


> Hello all. I'm new to this site and am looking for advice.
> 
> I recently finished my apprenticeship and have been out of work for close to 3 months now. Currently I'm sitting for my company while they look for work. Doesn't seem to be happening. My unemployment benefits will run out on September 1st. Our books currently stand at 325 and they're telling new people who are going on it that it will be 2 years before they get called.
> 
> ...


I'm non-union.... My helper left about 6 months ago for the union. Since then, he's called about 4 times saying he's been laid off and asked if I could put him to work.

Your experience thus far has proven that the unemployment benefits are more reliable that the union and your "brothers.". Let me ask you this.... Are you "brothers" lining up with offers to help feed your family while you sit and watch your unemployment benefits run out? Put your family above your "brothers" and find some steady work. The union is a joke.


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## TooFarFromFenway (Jul 15, 2011)

BurtiElectric said:


> So much for the brotherhood


I'm all for the "Brotherhood" and all that jazz, but really, does the brotherhood pay my bill and put food on my table if there's no work? 

Not one bit. I don't agree with lying, but you had better believe I will fight, cheat, borrow, steal, and maim to feed my family.


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## Amish Electrician (Jan 2, 2010)

First, to clear the air: Right now, I'm working for a steel mill. Have been since the economy became an abomination. I'm WAY far from home.

Wasn't by design. I didn't plan it this way. It's a sign of our goofy times that I've found steady work in a county that can be fairly described as the poorest county in the poorest state of the union. 

It's also non-union. Indeed, the place was built here specifically to avoid unions. 

Oddly enough, there are plenty of union guys that pass through here. No, they're not hired as 'electricians' or 'pipefitters.' They're hired as 'maintenance' or 'inspectors.' And, here they stay .... 'camping' in the best tradition of the journeyman, until they get that call from the hall. In the meantime, it's a long drive every other weekend to see the family back home. 12-hr. drives are common.

One virtue of being an electrician is that you learn lots of things. How to pour a concrete pad. Basic framing. Drywall. Painting. Operate telehandlers and lifts. Even if you strictly avoided crossing crafts, you saw enough to have an idea where to start. You have the OSHA 10/30 hr. certificate. There's plenty you can do - just don't call it 'electrical' work.

Look to where the economy is booming. That's right, I said booming. In a word: Oil. Either getting it out of the ground (North Dakota) or making the pipes, refineries, and whatnot else that's needed.

Another 'boom' area is mining, in general. Think "Nevada," without Las Vegas or Reno. As gold prices climb, what do you think happens at the gold mines?

Fact is, even in these times even the most basic jobs are having trouble finding folks who will both show up and keep their hands out of the till.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

running dummy said:


> Id like to see how you would react if someone backed you into a corner and told you what you could, and couldnt do. Then threaten you with a 12,000 dollar fine if you wanted to leave.
> 
> You would do the right thing and just lay down and take it, right? How's the view way up there?


If you can't play by fhe rules than you should have never signed up. Like i said, you want the best of both worlds


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

mcclary's electrical said:


> If you can't play by fhe rules than you should have never signed up. Like i said, you want the best of both worlds


 
I tend to agree with that a bit BUT, when they cannot get you a job for an extended period of time, they need to ease up a bit. You are a contractor, if you were union and could not land any work because your labor rate was not competitive, what would you do.



You signed a contract......And believe me they’d want to come after you?


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

brian john said:


> I tend to agree with that a bit BUT, when they cannot get you a job for an extended period of time, they need to ease up a bit.


Then there would be no point in the union. If the entire union was allowed to work for whatever wages they can find when there's no work, that would defeat the entire purpose of the union. If all his "brothers" thought like him, there could be NO union.


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

I haven't read through all the posts so I'll just say it anyway. The keyword is "SALTING". Find a job non-union and tell the hall. They will make you sign some document if it exisits in your local. 100% legal and will be approved by the hall. Although their are Some strings attached by doing this.. Like while your their they ask you to try and organize the shop if it's worth it for the union.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Then there would be no point in the union. If the entire union was allowed to work for whatever wages they can find when there's no work, that would defeat the entire purpose of the union. If all his "brothers" thought like him, there could be NO union.


 
Seems like a win, win. But you did not answer the question


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

jordan_paul said:


> Again, I put my family before my "brothers." Let's see the "brothers" make my truck payments when my unemployment runs out and theres no work in sight.



Thats great..but you miss the plot.

The hall [your brothers] are supporting your efforts to put food on your table - but you don't want to return the favor by putting food on another mans plate by even attempting to organize. In fact, you do the exact opposite - by union bashing and tossing the organizing material [that you actually paid for too] out.


You can call it "salting" if you want.
I call it bullsh*t.
We both know the truth here.


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## jp8302 (May 25, 2012)

Price yourself out of the market?? Our area union scale and bene's set market rate, if a non-union shop treats their guys poorly or pays too little they organize. Non-union shop owners try to treat their guys pretty good to keep them. A man has to do, what a man has to do, but at least respect where you got your training! I will never fault a guy for keeping shoes on his kids feet, but don't spit on the hall. 

sorry officialy off my soapbox now, feel free to rip me a new one


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

spadenickel said:


> Thank you all for the advice, I really do appreciate it.
> 
> And now if you'll forgive my ignorance, I have a few questions. And since this is the first time I've been in this situation and I'm not working to ask my fellow workers, I'll ask you guys.
> 
> What are some of the precautions I should take when looking for non-union work, specifically in regards to my union? I've heard somewhere (and I have no idea if this is true) that if there are a certain amount of guys on the books, then you can work non-union, but if it isn't over a certain number, you can't. I wonder that if it is true, it's one of our bylaws, or if that's just total bs.


I think the issue at hand is of ethics.Most of what I have heard of late from local salting consist of, get a nonunion job, do your job and be polite to the contractor. It would be best to contact your local organizer before you have done something rash that would have a negative effect on you and your family for a life time. I would imagine you signed a contract with NECA/IBEW that your liable for your 5 years of education if you were to work nonunion without signing a salt agreement for 5 years.
Now for the other side, there is work breaking all over the country as I post several locals in California are having a hard time manning some jobs(even dropping the license requirements in one local) Texas and Utah are in dire need of manpower.Ask your local rep to check around for you and I am sure he will find these and other states looking for travelers. I wish you the best in your decision but be aware that union scorn is in the air around here.


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## jordan_paul (Oct 4, 2011)

jp8302 said:


> Price yourself out of the market?? Our area union scale and bene's set market rate, if a non-union shop treats their guys poorly or pays too little they organize. Non-union shop owners try to treat their guys pretty good to keep them. A man has to do, what a man has to do, but at least respect where you got your training! I will never fault a guy for keeping shoes on his kids feet, but don't spit on the hall.
> 
> sorry officialy off my soapbox now, feel free to rip me a new one


Hahaah? Soapbox? More like union propganda.its actually sad because you have no clue.


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## henderson14 (Oct 23, 2010)

I love how all you union guys act like your only other option is to go Non-union to "provide for your families", and you have no other options. You could try a new line of work like a lot of other Americans have had to do. You could even....gasp...go to college. There's not much work out there union or non-union. Its all construction.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

henderson14 said:


> I love how all you union guys act like your only other option is to go Non-union to "provide for your families", and you have no other options. You could try a new line of work like a lot of other Americans have had to do. You could even....gasp...go to college. There's not much work out there union or non-union. Its all construction.


While I agree with you....

It's not limited to only "you union guys".

Many an electrician [pick any trade ] is simply afraid of the "unknown". To go from doing something you are pretty well adapted to, to some other form of employment can be daunting for anyone - union or not....tradesmen or suit.


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## henderson14 (Oct 23, 2010)

Celtic said:


> While I agree with you....
> 
> It's not limited to only "you union guys".
> 
> Many an electrician [pick any trade ] is simply afraid of the "unknown". To go from doing something you are pretty well adapted to, to some other form of employment can be daunting for anyone - union or not....tradesmen or suit.


Of course its not limited to union guys, but they are all acting like they "have no choice" but to break the rules and go non-union. A non union guy is under no agreement or has no loyalties in regards to union/non union. A lot of guys that are laid off just want to sit at home, point the finger, and act like they are victims and the union is big brother that has to find them work. A lot of guys are out of work because they were the least effective workers.


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## electriscott (Feb 24, 2009)

*What's right for you.*

Wow, it sounds like you are in a tough situation. Ultimately it boils down to what is right for you. Being in a similar situation that you are now in roughly 8 years ago, I can say that you have to forget about so called brotherhood loyalties. Look.... They, both the hall & contractors, used you while you were cheap, skilled , willing & able labor. Now that you have your license, put in your dues, did your time, propped up all the lag-abouts, they can't afford you & have put you on the books. Use your hard EARNED education & skills to put you & your family on the road to success. Being a foreman & supervisor I find that there is a shortage of QUALIFIED & well trained electricians out there. Get together a resume, emphasize your skills, education, versatility & experience. Dont emphasize your brotherhood, pack mentality, & adherence to rules & what you can't do. Put the resume out to all the places where you want to work, forgetting about what holds you back. If you go for what you want & don't settle for what others tell you is right you can't go wrong.


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## Nebelectrician (Apr 17, 2012)

I did my stint with the local here for some years, worked half of the time I was a "brother"


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## Nebelectrician (Apr 17, 2012)

I worked for the local here in Omaha, Ne for some time. The only problem was it was half the time I was working. Left the local and have never been without work since. Do what's best for you and your family. Your family will always be there for you. Your "BROTHERS", on the other had WILL NOT


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

If i worked for a company or organization that regularly laid me off i would leave without question, regardless if i was making 45 an hour for 5 months out of the year...If my chosen field was unable to let me provide for my family i would change careers. I did it when i was 29 and never looked back.. well sometimes i miss it but....

Personally, I think there is a small percentage of people that actually like being laid off from time to time... work for 6 months and collect and do side jobs... I cant tell you guys how many people that responded to my help wanted ads were ex union or current union guys looking to get paid under the table... Two of them declined when i told them I dont do cash. If they want to work it would have to be on the books so they can be covered by my insurance..


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## 760jj (May 28, 2012)

Automotive work mostly, also do other stuff such as roofing, lumber jacking, plumbing, carpentry. I love to learn other stuff when laid off. Pretty much open to anything. It is only temporary tho til I get a call.


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## jimmy21 (Mar 31, 2012)

are you guys afraid to travel or something? If there is no work at home, hit the road. There is usually a walk through hall somewhere in the country. Not a choice situation, but you guys act like the only option is to roll over and give up


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## TattooMan (Feb 10, 2012)

Do you have any other skills? Even while working steadily through my union hall I tattoo just about every night. I still have old customers that call for garage door work as well. Anything to keep busy and extra cash coming in. As a last resort there is always the option of moving to an area with more work. 

Good luck and welcome!


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## jimmy21 (Mar 31, 2012)

TattooMan said:


> Do you have any other skills? Even while working steadily through my union hall I tattoo just about every night. I still have old customers that call for garage door work as well. Anything to keep busy and extra cash coming in. As a last resort there is always the option of moving to an area with more work.
> 
> Good luck and welcome!



i too supplement my unemployment with other ventures. I do custom glass etching. I sell a lot of beer mugs. Except when im working, i have all the customers in the world, but no time. When im laid off i have all the time but hardly any customers


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## electrictim510 (Sep 9, 2008)

More threads like this make me feel good about not going union. :lol:


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

I know a few guys that are union and make a great living... There not all bad just like not all non union are great.... It all depends on your situation.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

> So my question is this: what do you do for money when you're off for a prolonged amount of time? I live within my means when I'm on unemployment, but without it, my family (wife, 1 kid, another on the way) would be sunk. I have serious reservations about working non-union, but if it came down to putting food on the table or going against my brothers, then my family wins that battle


I work in the garden _(currently 1200 sq ft & contemplating doubling it)_ , as well as bang nails on what is my next chicken house

the secret of successful sustainable agriculture as a superfluous source of sustenance are in my fowl plans ....

~CS~


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## 760jj (May 28, 2012)

I am one that enjoys change. I enjoy "rotating thru the contractors" when getting laid of. Lol. Love meeting new people, working different places. And when I can't find a job, I like doing something different for a little while til the hall opens up. This life definitely isn't for everyone. Not a lot of stability. But all thru the five year apprenticeship, there was that same question on the tests. What kind of workforce are you part of in the IBEW ? Temporary. I am only a jj also, so my view may change as time goes on. Lol


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

brian john said:


> Seems like a win, win. But you did not answer the question


 

Oh,you edited your post. Here'smyanswer: I would not sign up for that. I don't agree to all the terms. So I won't sign my name on that line. 

He, however, DID sign his name on that line. He had no problems taking union benefits as long as it worked to his advantage. The minute things are a little slow,he's ready to break all the rules. Like I said earlier, he's trying to get the best of both worlds. It's a good thing his "brothers" don't think like him, or have to count on him, because he obviously is not a man of his word.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

jordan_paul said:


> If I was fresh on the list and my BA told me it would be two years before I would work again, and said I can't work nonunion I would tell him to shove my union card right up his ass.
> 
> Remember: you are an electrician first, a union man second. If I was you, I would already be side-jobbing like crazy or working for a non-union EC.


The most spineless crap I have ever read.:wallbash:


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## Theriot (Aug 27, 2011)

Dude you signed your name honor it. Next time never sign something so dumb. I would never sign anything that tells me that I might not get a check for even a week. Union or not no one will tell me where I can or can't work. There isn't any unions around here but is this common? I here the term union brothers a lot,when this guy isn't working and needs to feed his family does his ( brothers ) help him out like family would. It seem they like to use terms like family and brother is this just feel good terms or does a little money out of his brothers checks go to help family when they need it?


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## stc9357 (Mar 16, 2012)

This is why I don't mind being Union atleast when I'm young I would just move to another local there has to be work somewhere. Other than that just do your 10 years or learn another trade and move on.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

stc9357 said:


> This is why I don't mind being Union atleast when I'm young I would just move to another local there has to be work somewhere. Other than that just do your 10 years *or learn another trade* and move on.


There is another trade?????:blink:


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## stc9357 (Mar 16, 2012)

brian john said:


> There is another trade?????:blink:


Whats wrong with going through a union electrical apprenticeship and later learning hvac so you'll always have work even on down times.


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## Theriot (Aug 27, 2011)

Does the union allow you to change fields and stay in the local?


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## stc9357 (Mar 16, 2012)

I don't know the answer to that but I was assuming it would be possible as long as the other trade was non-union. I doubt you can be in two unions, the pipefitters and electrical union at the same time.


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## electrictim510 (Sep 9, 2008)

captkirk said:


> I know a few guys that are union and make a great living... There not all bad just like not all non union are great.... It all depends on your situation.


Very true, but the problem I have is the rules that say if you're union you should not work outside of union even if there is no work.


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

All of you comment as if the union is a cult. Please!! If your outta work and need to make a living go out and do whatever. Even if it means working for a non union electrical contractor. 
I have yet to meet anyone who has been fined or removed from the union for doing such. 
Think about it?? If you were a BA and you knew of someone working non union who had a family and mortgage to pay, would you approach him/her and threaten him to quit and suffer the consequences of being bought up on charges. If you answered yes, then your a LOSER!!!


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

electrictim510 said:


> Very true, but the problem I have is the rules that say if you're union you should not work outside of union even if there is no work.


If not for that rule, there would be no point of having a union. Think about it


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## electrictim510 (Sep 9, 2008)

mcclary's electrical said:


> If not for that rule, there would be no point of having a union. Think about it


If it didn't work to their benefit then there would be no union to begin with. They would of been another group of thugs who would of come and gone with time. When a union is no longer beneficial and just a nuisance then you should still stay loyal to them? How far should you stretch that? Homelessness?


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> All of you comment as if the union is a cult. Please!! !!!


_naw_, cults usually have _some_ sort of leadership.....~CS~


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## Theriot (Aug 27, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> naw, cults usually have some sort of leadership.....~CS~


I would live to see the union adopt the cults dress code. Can you your local all in robes with tool belts on? I can't forget the patches though. What a look. Sometimes I think some of these guys had the kool-aid.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Theriot said:


> I would live to see the union adopt the cults dress code. Can you your local all in robes with tool belts on?


 like druids would be cool.....~CS~


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

stc9357 said:


> Whats wrong with going through a union electrical apprenticeship and later learning hvac so you'll always have work even on down times.


 
It was an attempt at humor.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Oh,you edited your post. Here'smyanswer: I would not sign up for that. *I don't agree to all the terms. So I won't sign my name on that line. *
> 
> He, however, DID sign his name on that line. He had no problems taking union benefits as long as it worked to his advantage. The minute things are a little slow,he's ready to break all the rules. Like I said earlier, he's trying to get the best of both worlds. It's a good thing his "brothers" don't think like him, or have to count on him, because he obviously is not a man of his word.


 
And that is a fair honorable answer.:thumbsup:


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## stc9357 (Mar 16, 2012)

brian john said:


> It was an attempt at humor.


Sorry humor is often loss over the internet.


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## yrman (Jun 12, 2011)

We are an open shop and have hired union guys a few times because the union has good training and the guys seemed hungry to work. unfortunately our experiences with every one of these hires has been well lets just say not what we'd hoped for. Now when we get resumes from guys with all union experience we wont even consider them. Sorry to say. We even looked into going union for about 5 seconds. As far as i could tell the only one who benefits is the union. We could not stay in business. I guess maybe the model works for big construction projects, no way for a small shop who has to stay competetive. Personally, I have a problem with the entitlement mentality the unions create. I see it in my kids school where there are MIGHTY problems caused by the teachers union and the victims are the kids.


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## Theriot (Aug 27, 2011)

When you hire one union guy you aren't just paying for him. You are paying for a bunch of suits and lawyers that go with him that's why they cost so much.


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## yrman (Jun 12, 2011)

Theriot said:


> When you hire one union guy you aren't just paying for him. You are paying for a bunch of suits and lawyers that go with him that's why they cost so much.


Just like when we sell a circuit breaker for $139. They arent just buying a breaker, but one that is delivered in an insured truck and then installed by a licensed electrician. No way we could add the suits and lawyers and union overhead as well into that equation for a homeowner who is probBly earning less than union wages.


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## Theriot (Aug 27, 2011)

So when union works for a HO they don't take union dues from him.


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## sparky970 (Mar 19, 2008)

stc9357 said:


> I don't know the answer to that but I was assuming it would be possible as long as the other trade was non-union. I doubt you can be in two unions, the pipefitters and electrical union at the same time.



Sure you can. We have an apprentice who is also a laborer. He works out of their hall if he's not working electrical. Also have a guy that's a fitter and an electrician.


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## henderson14 (Oct 23, 2010)

sparky970 said:


> Sure you can. We have an apprentice who is also a laborer. He works out of their hall if he's not working electrical. Also have a guy that's a fitter and an electrician.


Your not supposed to do that. I don't see how you can complete an apprenticeship in one while your working in another.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

henderson14 said:


> Your not supposed to do that.


Says who?

The IO does not want a person to hold two IBEW cards.



henderson14 said:


> I don't see how you can complete an apprenticeship in one while your working in another.



That does not mean no one can else can make it happen.


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## s.kelly (Mar 20, 2009)

sparky970 said:


> Sure you can. We have an apprentice who is also a laborer. He works out of their hall if he's not working electrical. Also have a guy that's a fitter and an electrician.


I agree, no problem holding two tickets. I have considered it myself, there are transferrable skills and certs with some trades and if travelling there are two possibilities in getting work for one drive. Fitter and electrician is a great example, could get you instrumentation work. 

I would also say there would certainly be no issue with the rules working another trade non union. I used to do non union elevator work and would go back if I had to, but it has not been nearly that bad for me.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

So let's point out the hypocrisy of so many that wear the union label. The contract that governs your benefits, wages, working conditions, etc. is sacred and must be protected and upheld. The one you sign that governs the terms of your employment in the union can be ignored at your own convenience.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

Peter D said:


> So let's point out the hypocrisy of so many that wear the union label. The contract that governs your benefits, wages, working conditions, etc. is sacred and must be protected and upheld. The one you sign that governs the terms of your employment in the union can be ignored at your own convenience.



So let's point out the hypocrisy of so many that do not wear the union label, and cannot fathom the notion of what unions have done to benefit them...8 hour work day, weekends, etc., yet feel the need to constantly be on a tirade against the very unions from which they themselves have actually benefited from and continue to benefit from.


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## sparky970 (Mar 19, 2008)

henderson14 said:


> Your not supposed to do that. I don't see how you can complete an apprenticeship in one while your working in another.




Why not?


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## Theriot (Aug 27, 2011)

The union had its place in history I'll give you that but it's like the government now. Over grown and really doesn't give a damn about most of you. It sees you as a source of income that's all. You are paying taxes sorry dues.


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## electrictim510 (Sep 9, 2008)

Celtic said:


> So let's point out the hypocrisy of so many that do not wear the union label, and cannot fathom the notion of what unions have done to benefit them...8 hour work day, weekends, etc., yet feel the need to constantly be on a tirade against the very unions from which they themselves have actually benefited from and continue to benefit from.


None of that stuff could of happened without unions? Unions may of fathered the ideas but it could of happened by those same people just making it happen without making their gang mentality. You sound like it was a selfless act that unions made these things for. It was for profit, and still is. I have no problem with unions in general except fo their "brotherly" (gangster) way they let eachother starve rather than work because they can't keep busy in their union.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Celtic said:


> So let's point out the hypocrisy of so many that do not wear the union label, and cannot fathom the notion of what unions have done to benefit them...8 hour work day, weekends, etc., yet feel the need to constantly be on a tirade against the very unions from which they themselves have actually benefited from and continue to benefit from.



Which sounds nice but distracts from my point which is that a union worker who works non-union is in violation of the contract he signed as a condition of his employment. That's what's being discussed here.


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## Tsmil (Jul 17, 2011)

I started my apprenticeship in a union factory. Training, pay and benefits were second to none. In my second year, the factory closed and put us out of work. Wanting to continue my apprenticeship I went to the local IBEW and was basically turned away with the phrase "are you really sure that you want to be an apprentice at your age?". I was 42. Even after assuring him I was serious they would not even give me a chance. I was finally hired by a non-union shop where I completed my apprenticeship and I am still with him. Do I think negatively about unions? No! The wages, benefits and working conditions have helped us all. I do think poorly of the rep who turned me away. Unions are fine but there are also many fine non-union shops.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

I think the word _allegiance_ might be what your after Pete, something of a premium within a capitalist system full of bean counters and cynics...

just mho

~CS~


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

electrictim510 said:


> None of that stuff could of happened without unions? Unions may of fathered the ideas but it could of happened by those same people just making it happen without making their gang mentality.


The gang mentality was needed at the time....the "company" had their gang mentality also..one need only look to examples such as Blair Mountain.



electrictim510 said:


> You sound like it was a selfless act that unions made these things for. It was for profit, and still is.


....its all about profit......................................I honestly don't care which side has the microphone.
I never implied unions motives were altruistic....but if you choose to read it that way....see above ^



electrictim510 said:


> I have no problem with unions in general except for their "brotherly" (gangster) way they let each other starve rather than work because they can't keep busy in their union.


Some members see it as being all about them [HFMFU]...which is actually kind of sad and pathetic. 
Not all members are brothers ~ and not all brothers are members.


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## electrictim510 (Sep 9, 2008)

Celtic said:


> The gang mentality was needed at the time....the "company" had their gang mentality also..one need only look to examples such as Blair Mountain.
> 
> ....its all about profit......................................I honestly don't care which side has the microphone.
> I never implied unions motives were altruistic....but if you choose to read it that way....see above ^
> ...


Fair enough I guess.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

chicken steve said:


> I think the word _allegiance_ might be what your after Pete, something of a premium within a capitalist system full of bean counters and cynics...
> 
> just mho
> 
> ~CS~


Yes, so I'd say the union members need to exhibit more loyalty, or the IBEW needs to modify their policy for union members who remain unemployed for long periods of time.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Peter D said:


> Yes, so I'd say the union members need to exhibit more loyalty, or the IBEW needs to modify their policy for union members who remain unemployed for long periods of time.


yes, but it's mighty hard feeding loyalty to the kids Pete.....~CS~


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

chicken steve said:


> yes, but it's mighty hard feeding loyalty to the kids Pete.....~CS~



So what's the solution?


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

In this economy, there isn't any

they're dying, but they can die with dignity Pete

~CS~


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

Peter D said:


> Which sounds nice but distracts from my point which is that a union worker who works non-union is in violation of the contract he signed as a condition of his employment. That's what's being discussed here.


There are many discussions and tangents going on here...that is why I chose to quote the person I am speaking to as opposed to randomly blurting comments out.


He is only in violation if its the same trade.

I hold an IBEW journeyman's card.
I am also a welder.
The welders qualifications was gained through the IBEW's JATC program.
I can weld anywhere I want to ...or least wherever I can pass the welders cert. test, if any....the guy fixing fences probably isn't looking for a certified welder :no:....although the fitters at a Nuke Plant are.

There are grey areas even in a black and white document.

Not all locals hold the same standards.
A small local may have an entire stable of "B" contractors [residential], while a larger local may not have many "B" contractors. The larger local - which has not made any effort to organize "B" contractors, may turn a blind eye to memebers performing residential work or even small commercial work. As the local has not made an effort to "claim" this market, they are not in a very strong position to admonish a man who obtains some of this type work.


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## TooFarFromFenway (Jul 15, 2011)

Celtic said:


> So let's point out the hypocrisy of so many that do not wear the union label, and cannot fathom the notion of what unions have done to benefit them...8 hour work day, weekends, etc., yet feel the need to constantly be on a tirade against the very unions from which they themselves have actually benefited from and continue to benefit from.


Well, are they continuing to fight for the other people to get those benefits, or are they law in every state.....Oh, right, federal law now....

So, what are they doing for the general public? Not a damn thing. 

I've got no problems with unions in general. I just personally feel that the unions (trade unions specifically) have had their usefulness diminish over time. 
At one point, yes, they most CERTAINLY were VERY instrumental in getting things like 40 hr workweeks, (typically weekends off) Overtime, benefits, etc. 

But now, 40 hr WW, benefits, overtime etc are standard (with the exception of benefits, that is still sometimes hard to come by) and in fact, all except benefits are required by law. 

They did also fight for better working conditions, better safety, etc. Which is no doubt bettered the trade since their inception. Cannot argue with that. 

But, my BIGGEST point, and something you brought up, is that now, since the things that the unions fought for are required by law, their job is done. Unless they want to fight for 3 day weekends with Friday a company sponsored beer drinking fishing day, then they'd have my support again. 


(Just FYI, before you rebut-I am currently a union firefighter. Have been since age 21, and will be until I die. So, I know how the unions help. )


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## Theriot (Aug 27, 2011)

Peter D said:


> Yes, so I'd say the union members need to exhibit more loyalty, or the IBEW needs to modify their policy for union members who remain unemployed for long periods of time.


Cults always just let's people leave when ever you want.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Celtic said:


> So let's point out the hypocrisy of so many that do not wear the union label, and cannot fathom the notion of what unions have done to benefit them...8 hour work day, weekends, etc., yet feel the need to constantly be on a tirade against the very unions from which they themselves have actually benefited from and continue to benefit from.


OK, seeing as you brought up hypocrisy I could not keep my fingers still any longer.

Lets start with an easy one.

Why is it that in many union discussion the union supporters will take credit for _*any*_ good done by_ *any*_ union at _*any*_ time but say I post a video of some unions bad behavior the supporters will quickly disown it. 

_'Its not how my local does it' 

'That's the other union' 

'That is in the past'_ 

If you want to take credit for the good (and yes they have done a lot of good) be honest about the bad as well.


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## Theriot (Aug 27, 2011)

Are you part of a welders union? If not how do the wielders union feel about you taking work from them. Lol


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## sparky970 (Mar 19, 2008)

Theriot said:


> Are you part of a welders union? If not how do the welders union feel about you taking work from them. Lol


Fixed it for you. Never heard of a welders union.:blink:


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

BBQ said:


> OK, seeing as you brought up hypocrisy I could not keep my fingers still any longer.
> 
> Lets start with an easy one.
> 
> ...


A simple thank you would be nice.


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

electriscott said:


> Wow, it sounds like you are in a tough situation. Ultimately it boils down to what is right for you. Being in a similar situation that you are now in roughly 8 years ago, I can say that you have to forget about so called brotherhood loyalties. Look.... They, both the hall & contractors, used you while you were cheap, skilled , willing & able labor. Now that you have your license, put in your dues, did your time, propped up all the lag-abouts, they can't afford you & have put you on the books. Use your hard EARNED education & skills to put you & your family on the road to success. Being a foreman & supervisor I find that there is a shortage of QUALIFIED & well trained electricians out there. Get together a resume, emphasize your skills, education, versatility & experience. Dont emphasize your brotherhood, pack mentality, & adherence to rules & what you can't do. Put the resume out to all the places where you want to work, forgetting about what holds you back. If you go for what you want & don't settle for what others tell you is right you can't go wrong.


 You know escott is right to some extent. Life is not easy and we are not going to get the gift horse when it comes to real life. I was taught to earn what you get in life. I also agree with logic says go ahead put your resume out there (just notify the hall) get a job, work hard for the nonunion contractor and also help your family survive (if can not or do not want to travel) I can not help but agree with escott about pack mentality, if you go to work and are happy with with less benefits,money and brothers and sisters then just stay with the nonunion contractor.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

TooFarFromFenway said:


> Well, are they continuing to fight for the other people to get those benefits, or are they law in every state.....Oh, right, federal law now....
> 
> So, what are they doing for the general public? Not a damn thing.


The general public is not really part of a labor Q/A session....if the topic was safety, then is might have some direct bearing on the public's safety.



TooFarFromFenway said:


> I've got no problems with unions in general. I just personally feel that the unions (trade unions specifically) have had their usefulness diminish over time.


Usefulness diminish?
I disagree strongly, but will concede that their power and numbers have diminished greatly in the past couple of decades.
Ultimately, the worker is going to be the one to suffer.




TooFarFromFenway said:


> At one point, yes, they most CERTAINLY were VERY instrumental in getting things like 40 hr workweeks, (typically weekends off) Overtime, benefits, etc.
> 
> But now, 40 hr WW, benefits, overtime etc are standard (with the exception of benefits, that is still sometimes hard to come by) and in fact, all except benefits are required by law.


Not exactly true.
For example in NJ [because I live here and am familiar with labor laws]...something as common as lunch is NOT a fact of life. There is NO requirement that an employer give an employee a lunch/meal break regardless of hours worked. In a 12 hr day, you are not entitled to ANY sort of a break ~ the only exception being minors under 18.
Overtime is another item taken for granted by many. I could work you for 12 hours/day..give you no lunch and no overtime..and you would have absolutely no legal ground to challenge me or for me to change that. Overtime is payable after 40 hours in a week - not 8 hours in a day. So I pay you 36 hours at straight time....and you better work all 36 ~ no coffee, no meal break etc, and there better be no unauthorized postings to ET while you are on the clock!

Of course, I would have to be a complete tool to treat a man this way...but you can bet it happens ~ and with more frequency than you can imagine.
How long would it take for that sort of working mantra to become the norm if there was/is no organized labor to simply say:" Hey, this cannot happen..we are working backwards here. We want better working conditions for the man." ?
Hopefully, not in our lifetime or our children's.
As a reference of time here for those that have not followed labor movement....the IBEW has been around for a little over 100 years ~ a mere two generations or so.



TooFarFromFenway said:


> They did also fight for better working conditions, better safety, etc. Which is no doubt bettered the trade since their inception. Cannot argue with that.
> 
> But, my BIGGEST point, and something you brought up, is that now, since the things that the unions fought for are required by law, their job is done. Unless they want to fight for 3 day weekends with Friday a company sponsored beer drinking fishing day, then they'd have my support again.


The work is not "done".
The "laws" many take for granted [ie, lunch, OT after 8, etc] are not actually laws. There are in place only because it has become an accepted practice...by some....not so much by others.
One of these others being the largest employer on the planet. If Wal-mart [notoriously anti-union] can gyp their workers out of OT, why couldn't Arc-n-Spark Electric Co, Inc, LLC ?
So maybe Arc-n_Spark does play by the rules....no OT, no lunch, etc...don't like the working conditions..goto Wal-Mart, see if its any better.
The work will never be done...and do you really want to rely on the gubbermint to fight all the battles?
I know I can't do it by myself, and I also know the gubbermint is less than reliable [OMG, am I becoming on of _those _conspiracy theory/hate the gov't types ???]....I don't know how much fight I'll have left when I retire.





TooFarFromFenway said:


> (Just FYI, before you rebut-I am currently a union firefighter. Have been since age 21, and will be until I die. So, I know how the unions help. )


That's impossible.
We all know you can't hold a union card and do anything else 

I know some men that are union electricians as well as firemen.
As long as they are "fit for duty" while wearing either hat ~ go for it!:thumbsup:
If my safety becomes an issue because some bozo fell asleep while drunk and smoking/cooking resulting in a major fire that kept you up half the nigh saving his sorry ass....don't make me be the one to save your ass next. Take the day off and get some rest before you crash on the way home.

My dad was a fireman for 30+ years. 
When he was hired on, a Scott airpac was as mythical as the Loch Ness monster...there was also no union.
The FD became unionized in the '60's.
He retired as a Battalion Chief in '86.
Dad died on 4/30/2010.
My mother [born 1922] is still covered by his pension and benefits, as well as her own pension/benefit from her job as a nurse...also union.

I shudder to think how many of us have NO retirement plan in play.
How will our spouses survive without our income?
Will our children be forced to take on the burden of elder care within their own home?
Its going to be heartbreaking for some.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

BBQ said:


> OK, seeing as you brought up hypocrisy I could not keep my fingers still any longer.


I would have thought you were ill if you didn't :thumbsup:


BBQ said:


> Lets start with an easy one.
> 
> Why is it that in many union discussion the union supporters will take credit for _*any*_ good done by_ *any*_ union at _*any*_ time but say I post a video of some unions bad behavior the supporters will quickly disown it.
> 
> ...


I can own up and say I do not agree with all the unions tactics when things do not go "our way".

I absolutely despise seeing that stupid inflatable rat ANYWHERE.
If I was in a position of power within my local, I would do away with it...I have no idea what I would replace it with to attract attention...but that thing has got to go.

I also do not agree with causing damage to company property/management personnel to "get the point across"...ala, the recent Verizon strike. 

I have family that work for Verizon. During the work stoppage, one of them [as he is management] had to "cross the line" and go do his previous job....fortunately he was qualified to climb poles and play with the wires....some of the strikers were his previous co-workers....should these two parties be in each others face as some of the videos show?
I don't think so.
I don't see the point.
Each side is correct....the striker for better conditions/management following their contract..but their beef is NOT with each other. They are both mere pawns.


I actually do agree with you.
Not everything done in the name of the Union is actually for the good of the Union.
Unfortunately, too many people in both camps drink too much dam kool-aid.


----------



## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

Theriot said:


> Are you part of a welders union? If not how do the wielders union feel about you taking work from them. Lol


There is no welders union that I am aware of.

Electricians, fitters, plumbers, iron workers....virtually all the mechanical trades need a welder....some frequently, some not so frequently.
Whatever the case, there is an IBEW classification of welder.
I am not "taking" anyone's work.
A good welder will never be out of work.

If you know of a welders union, let me know.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Celtic said:


> I
> I can own up and say I do not agree with all the unions tactics when things do not go "our way".
> 
> I absolutely despise seeing that stupid inflatable rat ANYWHERE.
> ...


See I am in a a position of power, I choose not to join or support an orginazation that allows, if not encorages all the types of behavior you described.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

jrannis said:


> A simple thank you would be nice.


Are you for real?

You were not even alive when the union was making important and great improvements but you want a thank you? 

Get over yourself and your current union.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TooFarFromFenway*
> _Well, are they continuing to fight for the other people to get those benefits, or are they law in every state.....Oh, right, federal law now...._
> 
> ...


Gentlemen, 
i agree on most of your stances, but would quote you this as a concern

the general labor force in America is _along for the ride_

i refer you to Wisconsin's recent debauchery as example

Union busting basically equates to middle class busting

and there's nothing the fortune 500's here would love to accomplish more


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Are you for real?
> 
> You were not even alive when the union was making important and great improvements but you want a thank you?
> 
> Get over yourself and your current union.


I am greatful for the sacrifaces those before us have made. I wish people were not so much in a hurry to throw such things away.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

look to orginizations like Cato institute & Heritage foundation to see who's in a hurry jrannis......~CS~


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## 760jj (May 28, 2012)

chicken steve said:


> Gentlemen,
> i agree on most of your stances, but would quote you this as a concern
> 
> the general labor force in America is along for the ride
> ...



I like that. Union or non union, democrat or republican. We still are all broke, just got different views. Lol. Good point


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## TooFarFromFenway (Jul 15, 2011)

First off, thank you for your kind, thoughtful, non-argumentative reply. That is unusual to find in a Union V Non-union topic. Seriously, thanks. 



Celtic said:


> The general public is not really part of a labor Q/A session....if the topic was safety, then is might have some direct bearing on the public's safety.


I'm not sure what you mean. Jobsite safety is highly regulated, and there are laws that protect workers. OSHA has broad power, and a lot of it. Maybe you're referring to something else....?? 



Celtic said:


> Usefulness diminish?
> I disagree strongly, but will concede that their power and numbers have diminished greatly in the past couple of decades.
> Ultimately, the worker is going to be the one to suffer.


ABsolutely, their numbers have drastically declined. My wife's grandfather was a coal miner in West "By God" Virginia!! Before his death, I spoke with him at length about the conditions he worked in, and how the coal miners were treated by their employer, how they fought to unionize, and how things changed after. (The movie Matewan sums up his experiences nicely) 

I applaud the union that actually accomplishes things for the benefit of everyone. 



Celtic said:


> Not exactly true.
> For example in NJ [because I live here and am familiar with labor laws]...something as common as lunch is NOT a fact of life. There is NO requirement that an employer give an employee a lunch/meal break regardless of hours worked. In a 12 hr day, you are not entitled to ANY sort of a break ~ the only exception being minors under 18.
> Overtime is another item taken for granted by many. I could work you for 12 hours/day..give you no lunch and no overtime..and you would have absolutely no legal ground to challenge me or for me to change that. Overtime is payable after 40 hours in a week - not 8 hours in a day. So I pay you 36 hours at straight time....and you better work all 36 ~ no coffee, no meal break etc, and there better be no unauthorized postings to ET while you are on the clock!


Well, that sucks to be in NJ. In Florida, anything over 8 hours (IIRC, I could be wrong on that) is overtime pay, and Florida law requires if a 6 hour shift is worked, 1-15 minute paid/unpaid break must be given, and if a shift of longer then 6 hours is worked, a 30 minute meal break must be provided. By law. 

I will agree that is not cool, and a pretty d-bag move if an employer would do that. Maybe someone in the NJ legislature needs to correct that. If the unions want to take on that, I would support them 100%. 




Celtic said:


> Of course, I would have to be a complete tool to treat a man this way...but you can bet it happens ~ and with more frequency than you can imagine.
> How long would it take for that sort of working mantra to become the norm if there was/is no organized labor to simply say:" Hey, this cannot happen..we are working backwards here. We want better working conditions for the man." ?


Is the IBEW working in those states to fix that? If so, I support them 100%. 



Celtic said:


> Hopefully, not in our lifetime or our children's.


Couldn't agree more. 



Celtic said:


> As a reference of time here for those that have not followed labor movement....the IBEW has been around for a little over 100 years ~ a mere two generations or so.
> 
> 
> The work is not "done".
> The "laws" many take for granted [ie, lunch, OT after 8, etc] are not actually laws. There are in place only because it has become an accepted practice...by some....not so much by others.


Which, as you pointed out, varies by state. Florida requires meal breaks, and breaks in general. 



Celtic said:


> One of these others being the largest employer on the planet. If Wal-mart [notoriously anti-union] can gyp their workers out of OT, why couldn't Arc-n-Spark Electric Co, Inc, LLC ?
> So maybe Arc-n_Spark does play by the rules....no OT, no lunch, etc...don't like the working conditions..goto Wal-Mart, see if its any better.
> The work will never be done...and do you really want to rely on the gubbermint to fight all the battles?


Sure. And they wouldn't have a leg to stand on in court. And yes, if the law is there (OT is required to be paid by federal law) if someone abuses that, I would fully expect a court of law to uphold that law. Absolutely. That is why we pay taxes. 



Celtic said:


> I know I can't do it by myself, and I also know the gubbermint is less than reliable [OMG, am I becoming on of _those _conspiracy theory/hate the gov't types ???]....I don't know how much fight I'll have left when I retire.


I understand, but as I said, the courts have a legal and moral responsibility. 



Celtic said:


> That's impossible.
> We all know you can't hold a union card and do anything else


I only hold one. I am not IBEW. Just IAFF. 



Celtic said:


> I know some men that are union electricians as well as firemen.
> As long as they are "fit for duty" while wearing either hat ~ go for it!:thumbsup:


I retired from the fire service, but am still a member of the IAFF. 



Celtic said:


> If my safety becomes an issue because some bozo fell asleep while drunk and smoking/cooking resulting in a major fire that kept you up half the nigh saving his sorry ass....don't make me be the one to save your ass next. Take the day off and get some rest before you crash on the way home.
> 
> My dad was a fireman for 30+ years.
> When he was hired on, a Scott airpac was as mythical as the Loch Ness monster...there was also no union.
> ...



And that is the way it should be. 



Celtic said:


> I shudder to think how many of us have NO retirement plan in play.
> How will our spouses survive without our income?
> Will our children be forced to take on the burden of elder care within their own home?
> Its going to be heartbreaking for some.


I agree. However, a small 3 man shop would be in dire financial trouble if they were required to pay benefits to everyone. Hence, why I work for one that not only offers it, but helps with contributions. 

If someone chooses to work for one that doesn't, there are ways to set up retirement funds on their own. 


Again, thanks for your polite, respectful reply. Cheers!!


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

BBQ said:


> See I am in a a position of power, I choose not to join or support an orginazation that allows, if not encorages all the types of behavior you described.


If you want to call that power, thats ok with me.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

TooFarFromFenway said:


> First off, thank you for your kind, thoughtful, non-argumentative reply. That is unusual to find in a Union V Non-union topic. Seriously, thanks.


Thank you.
Gentlemen should be able to talk without immediately resorting to personal attacks.




TooFarFromFenway said:


> I'm not sure what you mean. Jobsite safety is highly regulated, and there are laws that protect workers. OSHA has broad power, and a lot of it. Maybe you're referring to something else....??


I think its a miscommunication issue....by "general public", I took it to mean those not working in the trade....as opposed to the bozo next door dry cutting cement [not wearing any PPE] and all his dust/silica blowing into my open windows [dry cutting not allowed in NJ, generally].
In this instance, I am the "general public".






TooFarFromFenway said:


> ABsolutely, their numbers have drastically declined. My wife's grandfather was a coal miner in West "By God" Virginia!! Before his death, I spoke with him at length about the conditions he worked in, and how the coal miners were treated by their employer, how they fought to unionize, and how things changed after. (The movie Matewan sums up his experiences nicely)
> 
> I applaud the union that actually accomplishes things for the benefit of everyone.


Obviously, you understand the point I was attempting first hand.
Some that may not have a concrete reference - or have done little to no research - cannot understand the issue.





TooFarFromFenway said:


> Well, that sucks to be in NJ. In Florida, anything over 8 hours (IIRC, I could be wrong on that) is overtime pay, and Florida law requires if a 6 hour shift is worked, 1-15 minute paid/unpaid break must be given, and if a shift of longer then 6 hours is worked, a 30 minute meal break must be provided. By law.
> 
> I will agree that is not cool, and a pretty d-bag move if an employer would do that. Maybe someone in the NJ legislature needs to correct that. If the unions want to take on that, I would support them 100%.


Read the Fl. labor laws....you might be surprised...look up this phrase: Chinese Overtime
Its a real term...and it [IMHO] is insane.
I worked with a man, who previously had lived and worked in Fl., who tried to explain Chinese Overtime to me. 
He worked as driver for some distribution outfit at that time [early 1990's].

In NJ, IF one is covered by a contract [ Collective Bargaining Agreement/CBA, for example], meal breaks are a non-issue - it is addressed in the CBA. 
New laws do not mean folks will follow them.
Gun laws are a prime example. Fl. 's gun laws are vastly different to NJ....why are there so many murders in NJ if the guns are being "controlled"?
Seat belt laws, yapping on the phone while driving, etc etc....maybe in time, people will "get it", but there will always be those that don't or try and circumvent the law/logic of it.




TooFarFromFenway said:


> Is the IBEW working in those states to fix that? If so, I support them 100%.


People need to read their own States labor laws and become informed....sadly, many do not [on BOTH sides].





TooFarFromFenway said:


> I understand, but as I said, the courts have a legal and moral responsibility.


Justice is blind, too.





TooFarFromFenway said:


> I agree. However, a small 3 man shop would be in dire financial trouble if they were required to pay benefits to everyone. Hence, why I work for one that not only offers it, but helps with contributions.


Most shops charge about the same per hour [ lets not start a "going rate" debate here ] ....




TooFarFromFenway said:


> If someone chooses to work for one that doesn't, there are ways to set up retirement funds on their own.


...but many men are not paid a rate that includes health. retirement, etc., or a rate high enough to contribute to those sort of funds.




TooFarFromFenway said:


> Again, thanks for your polite, respectful reply. Cheers!!


You too...have a great weekend


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TooFarFromFenway*
> _First off, thank you for your kind, thoughtful, non-argumentative reply. That is unusual to find in a Union V Non-union topic. Seriously, thanks._
> 
> ...


 
my experience is most of the U guys of tenure , or at least up on the hx, are on the same page Celt

~CS~


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

chicken steve said:


> my experience is most of the U guys of tenure , or at least up on the hx, are on the same page Celt
> 
> ~CS~


I think that's a compliment...but I really can't understand the message you are trying to convey.


Seriously, and no offense intended, but do you post while inebriated?


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## TooFarFromFenway (Jul 15, 2011)

Celtic said:


> Thank you.
> Gentlemen should be able to talk without immediately resorting to personal attacks.


Agree 100%. Maybe B4T et al. should take notes. 

It's fine to disagree with someone, but do it respectfully. 



Celtic said:


> I think its a miscommunication issue....by "general public", I took it to mean those not working in the trade....as opposed to the bozo next door dry cutting cement [not wearing any PPE] and all his dust/silica blowing into my open windows [dry cutting not allowed in NJ, generally].
> In this instance, I am the "general public".


Yes, my bad. It's against OSHA rules to cut concrete dry unless all in the vicinity are protected with PPE. So, the tool next door needs a high five. In the face. With a chair. 



Celtic said:


> Obviously, you understand the point I was attempting first hand.
> Some that may not have a concrete reference - or have done little to no research - cannot understand the issue.


Absolutely. Agree 100%. It's sad, because the unions back then, and some unions still, are very powerful, and do a TON of good. Hence, why I am still a member of IAFF. 



Celtic said:


> Read the Fl. labor laws....you might be surprised...look up this phrase: Chinese Overtime
> Its a real term...and it [IMHO] is insane.
> I worked with a man, who previously had lived and worked in Fl., who tried to explain Chinese Overtime to me.
> He worked as driver for some distribution outfit at that time [early 1990's].


Chinese Overtime is kinda simple. Wrong, agreed. But, it's for specific contract salaried employees. It's still wrong, IMO. But, maybe it works out about right in the end, I wouldn't swear to that though. 




Celtic said:


> In NJ, IF one is covered by a contract [ Collective Bargaining Agreement/CBA, for example], meal breaks are a non-issue - it is addressed in the CBA.
> *New laws do not mean folks will follow them.*


Agreed. But, should we not try to continue to make this trade better for the benefit of everyone? 



Celtic said:


> Gun laws are a prime example. Fl. 's gun laws are vastly different to NJ....why are there so many murders in NJ if the guns are being "controlled"?
> Seat belt laws, yapping on the phone while driving, etc etc....maybe in time, people will "get it", but there will always be those that don't or try and circumvent the law/logic of it.


Absolutely. And there should be stiff and severe penalties for those who do break the rules. 



Celtic said:


> People need to read their own States labor laws and become informed....sadly, many do not [on BOTH sides].


Agreed. 



Celtic said:


> Justice is blind, too.


Sure. But, should we not continue to do everything possible to prevent that and punish those who try to circumvent? 



Celtic said:


> Most shops charge about the same per hour [ lets not start a "going rate" debate here ] ....


I'll agree to stay off that topic. 



Celtic said:


> ...but many men are not paid a rate that includes health. retirement, etc., or a rate high enough to contribute to those sort of funds.


Which is unfortunate. But, I'm blessed. 



Celtic said:


> You too...have a great weekend


I certainly did, hope you did the same.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

We keep agreeing with each other, disagreeing respectfully, quoting and responded to each others points...the neighbors are gonna start talking :laughing:



TooFarFromFenway said:


> Agreed. But, should we not try to continue to make this trade better for the benefit of everyone?


I am all for bringing everyone up...not dragging people down.
If someone has a better package than I receive ~ I want that too. I want to know what it is I need to do to improve my situation on the planet. I do not expect my situation to improve just because I happen to be involved with a union. If it means I take classes on my own time, and sometimes on my own dime, I do it. 
If a man [or woman] ask me how they can have what I have, I tell them how I went about it and wish them well on their way too.

One of the main issues I have with our trade is the race to the bottom mentality. If you can earn a total package of over $100/hr, why does that infuriate another man? Why isn't that man more interested in how he can get that package also? Why is he more interested in saying that "unions are what is wrong with this world!" [or other such rhetoric]? 





TooFarFromFenway said:


> But, should we not continue to do everything possible to prevent that and punish those who try to circumvent?


Unfortunately, the world we live in is generally not fair....but thats life.


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## Wireman191 (Aug 28, 2011)

I have never lived beyond what Unemployment pays me. So I dont do anything.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Celtic said:


> > I think that's a compliment...but I really can't understand the message you are trying to convey.
> 
> 
> yes _it is_ Celt
> ...


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

Wireman191 said:


> I have never lived beyond what Unemployment pays me. So I don't do anything.


That is not "living", that is "existing".


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

chicken steve said:


> yes _it is_ Celt
> 
> the message is those of you union members of significant tenure _and/or_ those of you union members that have a good historical knowledge of unions in America are better spoken of it
> 
> ...


Thanks Steve :thumbsup:


...even though you did just call me old! 












j/k :laughing:
Thanks again.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Celtic said:


> If you want to call that power, thats ok with me.


 
So, to sum it up, without the activities described, the union is powerless.. Gotcha.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

mcclary's electrical said:


> So, to sum it up, without the activities described, the union is powerless.. Gotcha.


:001_huh:

I clearly admonished those sort of negative activities....and yet you think I said I approve of them.

That is some twist to put on my words and I do not appreciate it.

So no, you don't "Gothca"


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

BBQ said:


> OK, seeing as you brought up hypocrisy I could not keep my fingers still any longer.
> 
> Lets start with an easy one.
> 
> ...


 




BBQ said:


> See I am in a a position of power, I choose not to join or support an orginazation that allows, if not encorages all the types of behavior you described. [/quote]
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

mcclary's electrical said:


> You said it plain as day, directly in response to BBQ, even if you won't admit it.



There is nothing to "admit"....


BBQ said:


> Why is it that in many union discussion the union supporters will take credit for _*any*_ good done by_ *any*_ union at _*any*_ time but say I post a video of some unions bad behavior the supporters will quickly disown it.
> 
> _'Its not how my local does it'
> 
> ...


...my response was crystal clear.

Continuing on....




BBQ said:


> See I am in a a position of power, I choose not to join or support an orginazation that allows, if not encorages all the types of behavior you described.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So if I disagree with BBQ, the union becomes powerless???

I'm not sure you even know what you are talking about.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Celtic said:


> There is nothing to "admit"....
> 
> 
> ...my response was crystal clear.
> ...


Typical union guy, too slow to even follow what I was saying.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Typical union guy, too slow to even follow what I was saying.


..... rather than bring me up to your elevated logic, you would rather put me down.

"Gotcha".


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## 760jj (May 28, 2012)

Wireman191 said:


> I have never lived beyond what Unemployment pays me. So I dont do anything.


I don't like debt. I agree allot with dave ramsey, the radio financial guy. The only debt I got is a cheap mortgage. It is crazy how the bank tried to get me to buy a house twice as expensive as the one I got. And we wonder why foreclosures are so high. U always hear in the union, guys say to save the o.t. cash for when you are laid off, like that'll happen. I agree with you 191, and try to make it where I won't lose my stuff if I lose my job.


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## jimmy21 (Mar 31, 2012)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Typical union guy, too slow to even follow what I was saying.


 Typical cult member. Looking to form an argument even if he can't find anything to base it on. Im not bashing non union guys either, just you. You remind me of the stereotypical guy on online message boards that is hardcore democrat/republican/religious member/athiest. Bashing anyone that doesn't agree, even if it makes him look stupid




760jj said:


> I don't like debt. I agree allot with dave ramsey, the radio financial guy. The only debt I got is a cheap mortgage. It is crazy how the bank tried to get me to buy a house twice as expensive as the one I got. And we wonder why foreclosures are so high. U always hear in the union, guys say to save the o.t. cash for when you are laid off, like that'll happen. I agree with you 191, and try to make it where I won't lose my stuff if I lose my job.


im in the same boat. I refuse to have any debt besides a mortgage (maybe 2, im thinking of buying a second house) Since the beginning of january Ive been working 6 10's and scale is 37.05 per hour. Im bringing home roughly 1600 a week on the check, yet im living like im broke. I refuse to eat at the job lunch wagons, and try to convince my wife we can't afford to eat out for dinner, etc. Just the other day the guys at the lunch table started talking..... "have you guys got any money saved?" "No, i don't know where the hell my money is going, but i have basically nothing saved from this job"  It amazes me


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## jordan_paul (Oct 4, 2011)

760jj said:


> I don't like debt. I agree allot with dave ramsey, the radio financial guy. The only debt I got is a cheap mortgage. It is crazy how the bank tried to get me to buy a house twice as expensive as the one I got. And we wonder why foreclosures are so high. U always hear in the union, guys say to save the o.t. cash for when you are laid off, like that'll happen. I agree with you 191, and try to make it where I won't lose my stuff if I lose my job.


I try to live my life that week 1 pays for the mortgage, week two pays for the bills, week 3 pays for the trips and dinners out etc, and week number 4 goes to the rainy day fund. If I get laid off I will be at roughly 60% of my earnings doing just fine, I won't be saving money but I won't be going into debt eaither.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

sing along?





 
~CS~


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

jimmy21 said:


> Typical cult member. Looking to form an argument even if he can't find anything to base it on. Im not bashing non union guys either, just you. You remind me of the stereotypical guy on online message boards that is hardcore democrat/republican/religious member/athiest. Bashing anyone that doesn't agree, even if it makes him look stupid
> 
> im in the same boat. I refuse to have any debt besides a mortgage (maybe 2, im thinking of buying a second house) Since the beginning of january Ive been working 6 10's and scale is 37.05 per hour. Im bringing home roughly 1600 a week on the check, yet im living like im broke. I refuse to eat at the job lunch wagons, and try to convince my wife we can't afford to eat out for dinner, etc. Just the other day the guys at the lunch table started talking..... "have you guys got any money saved?" "No, i don't know where the hell my money is going, but i have basically nothing saved from this job"  It amazes me


I certainly wasn't arguing just to argue. I usually stay out of those. But in this one, I gave my opinion as we all should . celtic made it appear as if barbeque have no power without the use of those tactics. Go back and read. Thats the message i got from his post. If you cannot read his post and understand why it sounded that way to me, then i apply my slow statement to you also.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Celtic said:


> ..... rather than bring me up to your elevated logic, you would rather put me down.
> 
> "Gotcha".


 I truly mean it. if you can't understand why your post sounded that way to me then you are slow or closeminded. Go back and read.


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## jimmy21 (Mar 31, 2012)

mcclary's electrical said:


> I certainly wasn't arguing just to argue. I usually stay out of those. But in this one, I gave my opinion as we all should . celtic made it appear as if barbeque have no power without the use of those tactics. Go back and read. Thats the message i got from his post. If you cannot read his post and understand why it sounded that way to me, then i apply my slow statement to you also.


Bbq was referring to the power he has. The power to choose to be non union. Then you twisted it around to somehow be about the union just for the sake of arguing. I'll stick to my previous statements.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> If you cannot read his post and understand why it sounded that way to me, then i apply my slow statement to you also.





jimmy21 said:


> . I'll stick to my previous statements.


Me too


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

jimmy21 said:


> Bbq was referring to the power he has. The power to choose to be non union. statements.


it is not a power, it is a choice...

and more a choice to be_ subjugated_ than anything else

~CS~


----------

