# Need Experienced Knowledge



## RonS1985 (May 12, 2012)

I have a customer who I've done tons of work for in the past. He has a 4-story rental condo. He just called me to let me know that the fire Marshall told his HOA that open fire (wood, charcoal, propane, etc.) BBQ grills are not allowed on the upper porches of the condos. The answer was to get electric grills. However, the only outlet on the porch is a 15A GFCI that gets its power from the lighting circuit on the same floor. The grill is 1700W which I believe puts it in the 20A range. This is making the 15A GFI trip. I need to get a 20A power source onto the porch but the panel is 4 stories down in the garage. I haven't been there yet to assess my options but I wanted to run this by my fellow elecs here first. Does anyone have a suggestion in this? I really don't want to run a wire all the way down the wall to the garage. What a mess that'll be.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Sounds a lot like a dedicated circuit for a (semi)fixed in place appliance is your only option.


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## GEORGE D (Apr 2, 2009)

MD's right, better start looking for a down spout or something to halfway conceal your raceway, probably gonna be easier do this from exterior.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

If it's tripping a GFCI receptacle, that means there's a ground fault.

1700/120=14.17.


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## RonS1985 (May 12, 2012)

480sparky said:


> If it's tripping a GFCI receptacle, that means there's a ground fault.
> 
> 1700/120=14.17.


It's only a 15A GFI.


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## k_buz (Mar 12, 2012)

GFI's don't trip on overload, they trip due to a ground fault.


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## Cujo (Feb 4, 2012)

Is the GFI itself tripping? Could be something in the equipment that causes a ground fault, it would suck if you ran new circuits and the equipment still caused it to trip. 

Not saying that its a good idea or anything, but it could be possible to run the grills off of the 15A. Heating elements aren't continuous loads. Its likely MD is right about having to run new circuits though.


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## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

If the grill only draws 14.XX odd amps, you might have better luck splitting the circuit inside the apartment, thus making the outside GFI dedicated.


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## RonS1985 (May 12, 2012)

Like I said, I haven't been there yet to see what is actually going on. I was told by the HO that the GFI was tripping but that could the breaker and not the actual GFI. The guy next door is having the same issue but he said his breaker is tripping. That tells me that I probably have to run a new circuit. My problem is both units are being rented out soon and the vacationers are going to want to grill.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

RonS1985 said:


> My problem is both units are being rented out soon and the vacationers are going to want to grill.


That sounds to me like the LL's problem...your solution is to make the tenants have an enjoyable stay, resulting in a happy LL....which does come with a certain price tag :thumbsup:


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## RonS1985 (May 12, 2012)

I'm going there on Saturday to check it out. I'm just praying there is a kitchen circuit plug nearby I can tap off of. Otherwise I'm screwed.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

RonS1985 said:


> I'm going there on Saturday to check it out. I'm just praying there is a kitchen circuit plug nearby I can tap off of. Otherwise I'm screwed.


Can't do that compliantly anyhow. You're not "screwed", no matter how you look at it. Nobody's asking you to do this for free, or even the cheapest/quickest possible way, are they? I think you just feel personally compelled to find an inexpensive way to satisfy them. Resist that urge.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

Just ran a conduit up the wall from the garage to the porch. Paint it if you wanna.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

http://www.gaiam.com/product/hot+pot+simple+solar+cooker.do?SID=WG122SPRTAPEMACS&extcmp=ps_b_nb


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

macmikeman said:


> http://www.gaiam.com/product/hot+pot+simple+solar+cooker.do?SID=WG122SPRTAPEMACS&extcmp=ps_b_nb


Better yet...


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## RonS1985 (May 12, 2012)

erics37 said:


> Just ran a conduit up the wall from the garage to the porch. Paint it if you wanna.


Not 4 stories I'm not. I'm not spiderman and I don't own a ladder that tall.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

RonS1985 said:


> Otherwise I'm screwed.



No you are not....you will be happy grilling back home, the LL and tenant/s will not be happy.


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## RonS1985 (May 12, 2012)

MDShunk said:


> Can't do that compliantly anyhow. You're not "screwed", no matter how you look at it. Nobody's asking you to do this for free, or even the cheapest/quickest possible way, are they? I think you just feel personally compelled to find an inexpensive way to satisfy them. Resist that urge.


Yes, time is of the essence. One unit is being rented on the 23rd and the other Justin Monday.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

RonS1985 said:


> Not 4 stories I'm not. I'm not spiderman and I don't own a ladder that tall.


Rent a lift....work smarter, not scarier :thumbsup:


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

RonS1985 said:


> Yes, time is of the essence. One unit is being rented on the 23rd and the other Justin Monday.


Sounds like extra money to me working on a weekend or later than normal hours.
You win :thumbup:


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

RonS1985 said:


> Not 4 stories I'm not. I'm not spiderman and I don't own a ladder that tall.


Mankind has invented other ways to counteract gravity.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

RonS1985 said:


> Yes, time is of the essence. One unit is being rented on the 23rd and the other Justin Monday.


Wow, sounds like the building owner really failed to plan this one out. It sounds like it's getting more expensive the more you tell us about the situation. You can still be the hero. Rent the right boom lift, get your plan straight, and work hard to get it done before the tenants arrive.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> Wow, sounds like the building owner really failed to plan this one out. It sounds like it's getting more expensive the more you tell us about the situation. You can still be the hero. Rent the right boom lift, get your plan straight, and work hard to get it done before the tenants arrive.


Or just drop a 16 gauge extension cord off the porch and plug it into the garage.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

erics37 said:


> Or just drop a 16 gauge extension cord off the porch and plug it into the garage.


Best solution yet. Or, put a generator out on the porch.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Frankly, I'm surprised the bar-b-que on the porches of this rental property hasn't been caught long before now. They spread the word on that in my area decades ago, and we're pretty back-woods. Most of these types of buildings like that in my area just installed "state park like" permanent charcoal grills in various places in a common lawn area, so whoever wants to grill can just pick one and use it.


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## stuiec (Sep 25, 2010)

Are the grills already purchased? Do they make a 240V version? Room for a 2P breaker?


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> Frankly, I'm surprised the bar-b-que on the porches of this rental property hasn't been caught long before now. They spread the word on that in my area decades ago, and we're pretty back-woods. Most of these types of buildings like that in my area just installed "state park like" permanent charcoal grills in various places in a common lawn area, so whoever wants to grill can just pick one and use it.



My parents had bought a condo, so of course I moved thier LP grill to the deck :thumbsup:

A few weeks later, they got hate mail about it not being allowed on the deck - and to use the NG connection that had been provided.


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## Davethewave (Jan 6, 2012)

1700 watts. Sounds like am12 gauge cord to the kitchen or washing machine. Life's little inconveniences.


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## Bootss (Dec 30, 2011)

Hire a H.D. lot lizard, to climb up the side of the house.


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## big vic (Jan 23, 2012)

There isn't a subpanel on the fourth floor in the condo?


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

There is some bizarre stuff in this thread. :blink:


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Are all the terraces in line with each other? If so I would drill/core thru each on in line and run one 3/4 conduit up thru deep T11 boxes . Pull 8 conductors w/ one ground and terminate each set of two at each terrace and then divide them in the basement to each panel.


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## RonS1985 (May 12, 2012)

big vic said:


> There isn't a subpanel on the fourth floor in the condo?


No. One panel in the garage.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

RonS1985 said:


> Not 4 stories I'm not. I'm not spiderman and I don't own a ladder that tall.


Rent a lift???


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## RonS1985 (May 12, 2012)

The person I'm doing this for started out as a client but over the years has turned into a bit of a friend. Since he gives me tons of work I don't gouge him. A lift isn't in the budget. I used to work for the company that wired these condos. Their policy was to put all outside receps on their own circuit at 20A. The guy that did the work was very lazy and he just ran a 14 wire from the closest feed, in this case the kitchen lights. Had he done it the company's way I wouldn't even have this issue now. Now I have to locate 20A somewhere and run it outside without any drywall damage, or at least very little.


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## reddog552 (Oct 11, 2007)

*Your screwed*

Budget? Tennents Ease of use. One has to change.Exterior conduit is the only right way to do this.


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## RonS1985 (May 12, 2012)

reddog552 said:


> Budget? Tennents Ease of use. One has to change.Exterior conduit is the only right way to do this.


I think so, too.


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## TooFarFromFenway (Jul 15, 2011)

Shockdoc said:


> Are all the terraces in line with each other? If so I would drill/core thru each on in line and run one 3/4 conduit up thru deep T11 boxes . Pull 8 conductors w/ one ground and terminate each set of two at each terrace and then divide them in the basement to each panel.


Could be an option, as long as there is not a fire wall between units, which, if the condos were built in the last 20 years or so, is not likely. 

Cannot penetrate a fire wall for any reason here. Maybe it's different elsewhere, but not likely. 

That would be much more convenient than pulling a spider-man on the side of the building though.


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

1st...go to basement if there is one..hopefully..probably not...you gotta find that sewer vent stack...that is your white knight..if ya got one your half way home then drop the chain or what ever you use to pull....I use a small ga chain....then zoom bang pow your go to go...if not well plan on the cost of a lift...good luck kid:thumbsup:..or gift wrap em a George Foreman:thumbup:


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

RonS1985 said:


> The person I'm doing this for started out as a client but over the years has turned into a bit of a friend. Since he gives me tons of work I don't gouge him. A lift isn't in the budget. I used to work for the company that wired these condos. Their policy was to put all outside receps on their own circuit at 20A. The guy that did the work was very lazy and he just ran a 14 wire from the closest feed, in this case the kitchen lights. Had he done it the company's way I wouldn't even have this issue now. Now I have to locate 20A somewhere and run it outside without any drywall damage, or at least very little.


Still not sure why you keep calling it _your_ issue. 

A friend would respect your knowledge and experience and in turn pay accordingly. :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: Friends are worse than family.


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## k_buz (Mar 12, 2012)

If it was advertised that there is a grill on the balcony, and all I find is some electric grill, I'd take the element out and use it to light my charcoal.


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## RonS1985 (May 12, 2012)

Well, it's was a lot ado over nothing. The final solution was to tell all 26 units to not get a grill over 15A. A secondary problem was the outside GFI's (at two units) weren't working. The good news is I get to make some good cash through their HOA. They are paying me to replace ALL 24 unit's GFI's with the new "Tamper/Weather Resistant" GFI's with new covers. Thanks for everyone's input.


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## noarcflash (Sep 14, 2011)

When I was a kid, my father ran a copper natural gas line from inside the house, to outside the house, about 30 feet. worked great for many years.


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## Bootss (Dec 30, 2011)

RonS1985 said:


> Well, it's was a lot ado over nothing. The final solution was to tell all 26 units to not get a grill over 15A. A secondary problem was the outside GFI's (at two units) weren't working. The good news is I get to make some good cash through their HOA. They are paying me to replace ALL 24 unit's GFI's with the new "Tamper/Weather Resistant" GFI's with new covers. Thanks for everyone's input.


how much do you charge for that task, each unit
in delaware?


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## RonS1985 (May 12, 2012)

Lep said:


> how much do you charge for that task, each unit
> in delaware?




These two were $90. If I have replace the remaining 24...I'll charge $35 each in labor. They will buy the material.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

I am just curious. Is this a side job or are you a contractor?


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

RonS1985 said:


> These two were $90. If I have replace the remaining 24...I'll charge $35 each in labor. They will buy the material.


Wow, $35 ? That pretty cheap. I used to hang HPS NEMA heads on a 90 arm back in 85' for that.


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

noarcflash said:


> When I was a kid, my father ran a copper natural gas line from inside the house, to outside the house, about 30 feet. worked great for many years.


In NYS that would be a violation...only hard pipe (black) can be used to go through a wall..copper is not permitted for that gas application....did the same for my dads grill years ago


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## 007 (May 4, 2009)

RonS1985 said:


> These two were $90. If I have replace the remaining 24...I'll charge $35 each in labor. They will buy the material.


Was that 90 each? Why did you drop your price so much ?


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

erics37 said:


> Just ran a conduit up the wall from the garage to the porch. Paint it if you wanna.


.....its a 4 story condo, I doubt they would allow a conduit run on the outside of that building.


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## ampman (Apr 2, 2009)

[QUOTE=RonS1985;738740. A lift isn't in the budget. neither is a hospital stay


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

360max said:


> .....its a 4 story condo, I doubt they would allow a conduit run on the outside of that building.


Solved that already.



erics37 said:


> Or just drop a 16 gauge extension cord off the porch and plug it into the garage.


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