# Sub Panel in laundry/dryer closet



## dham206 (Mar 6, 2016)

Im doing the electrical work for a addition of a single family residence. I need to put in a sub panel and there are not too many good locations. I know sub panels are not permitted in clothes closets 240.24(E) but is a laundry dryer closet thats in the hallway with bi folding doors permitted as long as the sub panel has clearances according to 110.26(A)(1)?


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Don't call it a laundry _*closet*_ call it a laundry room or better a utility room.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Yes, it's a utility room and very common for panels to be in there in small house, apartments, and condos. As you mentioned, as long as you have the clearances you are OK.

I don't know how they do it, but I often have to work in an subpanel in a condo that is halfway behind the water heater.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

We have this wording in on our code for panel location: 

_....in any similar undesirable places._

I had an inspector use this on me once after I installed the panel and we had to re-arrange the room to satisfy him.

I have learned to never be shy about phoning an inspector first.


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## PlugsAndLights (Jan 19, 2016)

Don't your clearances include 3' of working space in front of panel? 
Don't see how you'd get that in laundry a closet. 
Used to be common up here to put panels behind stoves in cottages. They
haven't allowed that for at least 40 years. 
P&L


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## mdnitedrftr (Aug 21, 2013)

99cents said:


> I have learned to never be shy about phoning an inspector first.


That's your best bet.


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## matt1124 (Aug 23, 2011)

I just put one in a very tight space that barely meets space restrictions. It's not a closet, it's a "panel room".


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

PlugsAndLights said:


> Don't your clearances include 3' of working space in front of panel?
> Don't see how you'd get that in laundry a closet.
> Used to be common up here to put panels behind stoves in cottages. They
> haven't allowed that for at least 40 years.
> P&L


Our rule in Canada says 1M clearance around the panel with secure footing. It doesn't, however, say that the secure footing needs to be within that one meter square. A panel above a washer or dryer isn't normally an issue, at least not around here.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> Our rule in Canada says 1M clearance around the panel with secure footing. It doesn't, however, say that the secure footing needs to be within that one meter square. A panel above a washer or dryer isn't normally an issue, at least not around here.


I've seen the code people speaking about the substantiation for panel clearance and they speak directly about not having something inside that space which the person working on the panel might touch or fall on that may ground them. Which a washing machine and stove will do. They want your lifeless body to be able to fall away from the panel if something happens to you :laughing:


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

99cents said:


> We have this wording in on our code for panel location:
> 
> _....in any similar undesirable places._


Once Canadian inspectors figure out that anywhere Tim Whoretons outnumber Dunkin Donuts is an *undesirable place*, you guys are F'd.


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## PlugsAndLights (Jan 19, 2016)

99cents said:


> Our rule in Canada says 1M clearance around the panel with secure footing. It doesn't, however, say that the secure footing needs to be within that one meter square. A panel above a washer or dryer isn't normally an issue, at least not around here.


Don't see how a panel mounted behind an appliance meets the 
intent of the 1m/secure footing rule and I'm glad they don't 
allow that around here. If they allow it elsewhere, so be it. 
P&L


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> I've seen the code people speaking about the substantiation for panel clearance and they speak directly about not having something inside that space which the person working on the panel might touch or fall on that may ground them. Which a washing machine and stove will do. They want your lifeless body to be able to fall away from the panel if something happens to you :laughing:


I hate it when I start a job and there's a corpse slumped over the washing machine. It means an extra trip to the dumpster.


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## electricguy (Mar 22, 2007)

Fairly sure we can not have a washer in front of a panel , wheel chair accessibility and un restricted access to panel if for any reason a circuit needs to be turned off in a hurry


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## dham206 (Mar 6, 2016)

Thanks for the info guys. Ive concluded that this laundry room may not work. I cant see having clearances for work spaces. Its going to have to go in the master bedroom which i know the customer is not going to like.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Is there an area in the hallway where there is about a 4' wide wall in which a good sized picture of mirror can go?


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## dham206 (Mar 6, 2016)

HackWork said:


> Is there an area in the hallway where there is about a 4' wide wall in which a good sized picture of mirror can go?


There is a hallway to the addition. That is another option. I guess the homeowner could place a picture or mirror over the panel but would it be wise to suggest that? and is it legal?


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

when I have no where else to stick a panel Ill install it in a bedroom so when the door is open the panel is covered......most people never close their bedroom door and even if they do its a spot that never gets covered so would be easily accessible in the future


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## PlugsAndLights (Jan 19, 2016)

dham206 said:


> There is a hallway to the addition. That is another option. I guess the homeowner could place a picture or mirror over the panel but would it be wise to suggest that? and is it legal?


Hallway would be great. Really great. 
Picture and mirror are bad. Just bad. 
#orangeisthenewblack
P&L


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

dham206 said:


> There is a hallway to the addition. That is another option. I guess the homeowner could place a picture or mirror over the panel but would it be wise to suggest that? and *is it legal?*


Tell them "What you do after I leave and the inspection is done is your business"... :thumbsup:


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## PlugsAndLights (Jan 19, 2016)

Since the op is in Washington this doesn't apply, but here it is anyways:
From ESA bulletin 2-9-x:
P&L

Question 6 Does the Code permit placing an appliance, such as a clothes dryer, in front of an electrical panel? 
Answer 6 No. The Code requires a minimum working space of 1 m (39") with firm footing be provided and maintained in front of electrical equipment such as panelboards. The Code also requires that working space around electrical equipment be kept clear of all obstructions. (Rules 2-308 and 2-310).


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Code in only for electrician who have pulled permits. Code is meaningless to a homeowner. They are not bound by it nor is there any jurisdiction to enforce it. 

Someone can put whatever they want in front of their panel. A picture or mirror is a very common thing.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> Code in only for electrician who have pulled permits. Code is meaningless to a homeowner. They are not bound by it nor is there any jurisdiction to enforce it.
> 
> Someone can put whatever they want in front of their panel. A picture or mirror is a very common thing.


Plus, on top of a washing machine is a good place to put your tool bag and assorted junk when you're doing panel work  .


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Except when it comes time to sell and or the town comes to visit after the sale.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

nrp3 said:


> Except when it comes time to sell and or the town comes to visit after the sale.


The new owners could worry about moving the picture, mirror, or washing machine :thumbsup:


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Those kinds of things sure. In response to your statement of about code not applying to homeowners, I ment much worse hackery than that.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

nrp3 said:


> Those kinds of things sure. In response to your statement of about code not applying to homeowners, I ment much worse hackery than that.


Here, when selling a house the fire inspector comes in and checks for a few things before issuing the CO. The only electrical items I have seen them check for are working GFCI's and smokes.

They don't enforce the NEC.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

HackWork said:


> Here, when selling a house the fire inspector comes in and checks for a few things before issuing the CO. The only electrical items I have seen them check for are working GFCI's and smokes.
> 
> They don't enforce the NEC.


How about when someone gets killed or injured due to the HO's hackery? Would code violations have any bearing on the amount awarded survivors?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk


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## matt1124 (Aug 23, 2011)

HackWork said:


> Here, when selling a house the fire inspector comes in and checks for a few things before issuing the CO. The only electrical items I have seen them check for are working GFCI's and smokes.
> 
> They don't enforce the NEC.


Even houses that have been built for decades or just new ones?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

wendon said:


> How about when someone gets killed or injured due to the HO's hackery? Would code violations have any bearing on the amount awarded survivors?
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk


I never mentioned liability in a lawsuit nor do I care to now. Go start your own thread if you want to pick silly things apart, this is about being able to hang a picture in front of an electrical panel and no one being able to stop them.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

matt1124 said:


> Even houses that have been built for decades or just new ones?


In most towns they want GFCI's installed in bathrooms and kitchens when the house is sold, as well as battery smokes and CO detectors where they are currently required, even if the house is really old. This is the fire inspector requiring them for the CO.

In one town they actually make sellers upgrade the smoke/CO system to a wired system, which is insane.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Hanging a picture is cool, If I remember correctly, Eaton offers a paintable hinged panel cover.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

nrp3 said:


> Hanging a picture is cool, If I remember correctly, Eaton offers a paintable hinged panel cover.


I did a panel change a month ago where some dumbass painted the breakers  .


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Certain agencies pressing for no gaps more than a certain amount in panels and the solution by others was silicon or spray foam...


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