# Over worked under paid.



## Winthrope (Jun 13, 2020)

Hello everyone
I am working on the side trying to make money with the little skills I have but I don't want to beat myself by under bidding my jobs. My question is ; where can I find a book or online file with pay rates for the jobs I do? From residential to small commercial pay.


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## zac (May 11, 2009)

Winthrope said:


> Hello everyone
> 
> I am working on the side trying to make money with the little skills I have but I don't want to beat myself by under bidding my jobs. My question is ; where can I find a book or online file with pay rates for the jobs I do? From residential to small commercial pay.


It's called hard knocks. The problem is there's many authors so a cliff note book is impossible.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Winthrope said:


> Hello everyone
> I am working on the side trying to make money with the little skills I have but I don't want to beat myself by under bidding my jobs. My question is ; where can I find a book or online file with pay rates for the jobs I do? From residential to small commercial pay.


Win,
Just a few things come to mind.
I don't want to condone people doing side jobs without proper license, insurance, and workman's comp.
With that said,
You cannot present yourself as a bottom feeder and make the money your time is worth.
Start out by providing super premium service. This will set you apart for the people thinking they are running a business working for 2x their wage rate. 
It's much better to invest your time and resources in jobs that will net you 2k per day rather than $200 per day.
Understand that your ego might think you are making money by bringing in $80 per hour but, the only thing you are doing is robbing yourself of your time.
Understand that not everyone is your customer, there are people out there that have a great need for quality of life electrical repairs and cannot afford to have that work done. I'll give you permission to do these at little or no cost, just don't get hustled, and don't do many of them.
Your customer is the one that invites you into their home or business and only wants you to be in and out as fast as possible and when you leave, make 100% sure you leave no sins of a disruption.
That is the word of mouth customer you want. They will pay a premium for your services. 
Do not be the bottom feeder that takes anything and then fumbles around when collection time comes. Understand that it is very respectful to have the customer understand exactly what you are doing and what the expected compensation will be. That is what being a professional is about.


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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

You aren't licensed, bonded, or insured. You can't pull permits.

If you need extra money, get a second job. You could be Home Depot's weekend shift electrical expert.

Or tough it out like some of the rest of us did by going on a budget and saving money/not spending any way we could while we were going through our apprenticeship.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

To me insurance is the deal breaker for side jobbing, even if you're willing to risk getting sued, it's not fair to your customers. 



For side work, I'd look for part time work as needed doing maintenance type work, you might be surprised how much this is worth to a lot of businesses.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

splatz said:


> To me insurance is the deal breaker for side jobbing, even if you're willing to risk getting sued, it's not fair to your customers.
> 
> 
> 
> For side work, I'd look for part time work as needed doing maintenance type work, you might be surprised how much this is worth to a lot of businesses.


I’m not sure what you pay for liability insurance but I’m at $500 a year. Shouldn’t be a deal breaker. 

A basic contractor’s cost calculator still applies to a side jobber. Many costs are the same whether you’re full time or part time - insurance, business licensing, tools, etc. It costs a part timer more to be in business than a full timer.

A part timer needs to look at it as a business right from the beginning. It isn’t just extra beer money. I think the OP is trying to learn things right from the beginning.

I still go back to what I learned a long time ago. I might do my job estimate and multiply it by 2 1/2. I thought it was just me but other guys here do the same thing. When you consider cost of doing business, profit, billable hours and non-billable hours, that number starts to make sense.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

A sideworker has zero overhead. He uses his same truck that he already has, same tools, no license or insurance fees, no extra accounting, nothing. The only overhead is fuel to drive to the job, which is no different than paying for fuel to commute to a full time job for someone else. 

Cash is taken in and kept, all of it. No overhead and no taxes.

So yes, a sideworker can work for much less and still make good money. But why not work for the same as a legit contractor and make lots more money?

@Winthrope you didn't tell us where you are so the amount will vary. But you should not be charging less than $100/hr. And you should be giving a price for the job upfront, not billing hourly.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

No no I don't mean insurance is the main expense that needs to factor into his estimating. I meant if he doesn't have insurance, he should not even be contracting, no matter how small scale, and should find another way to supplement his income. 





99cents said:


> I’m not sure what you pay for liability insurance but I’m at $500 a year. Shouldn’t be a deal breaker.
> 
> A basic contractor’s cost calculator still applies to a side jobber. Many costs are the same whether you’re full time or part time - insurance, business licensing, tools, etc. It costs a part timer more to be in business than a full timer.
> 
> ...


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> A sideworker has zero overhead. He uses his same truck that he already has, same tools, no license or insurance fees, no extra accounting, nothing. The only overhead is fuel to drive to the job, which is no different than paying for fuel to commute to a full time job for someone else.
> 
> Cash is taken in and kept, all of it. No overhead and no taxes.
> 
> ...


I’m pretty sure you learned much about the business side of things as a part timer. I get what you’re saying but a side jobber still needs ladders, benders and a lot of things an employee doesn’t have. He still needs insurance, business license, etc., at least to be legit. If he’s just changing out fixtures and smoke detectors, who cares, just do it.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> I’m pretty sure you learned much about the business side of things as a part timer. I get what you’re saying but a side jobber still needs ladders, benders and a lot of things an employee doesn’t have.


 Most employees/homeowners have ladders, including an extension ladder. It depends what type of work you are doing, benders are not always necessary, and even if needed can be purchased for pennies on Craigslist. I just looked it up for S&G's, $85 for all of these, I bet you can get him down to $50:









Most working electrician collect basic tools like this. Cordless drill and impact, sawzall. I see these tools in stock broker's houses, so an electrician should have them. 



> He still needs insurance, business license, etc., at least to be legit.


 To be legit, yes. But many people are fine not being legit.

I guess my point is just that sideworkers can in fact make money by charge low since they have zero overhead, but why should they? Charge more.


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## catsparky1 (Sep 24, 2013)

Just a thought to keep in mind . If you get caught without a license or if you screw something up you might never work or get a license in the future . Its not worth the risk . 

Example be this . One of our 2nd year guys who was a sharp kid hung a fan on a bakelite box . 2 months later it fell down on a kid who was sleeping . Daddy was an attorney . Dude got sued and we fired him . Last time I saw him he was working at a carwash . That was 4 or 5 years ago and he is still paying for the pain and suffering he caused . Daddy tried to sue us too and we spent tons of money keeping that pitbull of a lawyer off our a$$ and we sued him for the getting us into this mess . 

We have tens of millions in insurance if it goes south you don't . Just think about what you do before you do it or you may never do again .


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## stiffneck (Nov 8, 2015)

splatz said:


> To me insurance is the deal breaker for side jobbing, even if you're willing to risk getting sued, it's not fair to your customers.
> 
> 
> 
> For side work, I'd look for part time work as needed doing maintenance type work, you might be surprised how much this is worth to a lot of businesses.


 Can you be more specific for "Maintenance type work" you are referring to?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

catsparky1 said:


> Just a thought to keep in mind . If you get caught without a license or if you screw something up you might never work or get a license in the future . Its not worth the risk .
> 
> Example be this . One of our 2nd year guys who was a sharp kid hung a fan on a bakelite box . 2 months later it fell down on a kid who was sleeping . Daddy was an attorney . Dude got sued and we fired him . Last time I saw him he was working at a carwash . That was 4 or 5 years ago and he is still paying for the pain and suffering he caused . Daddy tried to sue us too and we spent tons of money keeping that pitbull of a lawyer off our a$$ and we sued him for the getting us into this mess .
> 
> We have tens of millions in insurance if it goes south you don't . Just think about what you do before you do it or you may never do again .


"Its not worth the risk."

That's subjective. I did sidework for over 15 years, the amount of money that I made is immeasurable. 

Your story shows an instance that is not only avoidable (don't hang fans from bakelite boxes alone, don't do sidework for lawyers, deny doing the work), but also very unlikely. Out of the tens of millions of instances of unlicensed electrical work being performed, a dozen or so are caught and have more than a slap on the wrist. You can look on Craigslist right now to find handymen ads that have been there for years that say they do electrical and plumbing work, no one does anything about it.

I remember before this forum was here, back on EKR the user Celtic said that doing sidework wasn't worth it because if we got caught in NJ there would be a $2,500 fine. The prior 2 weeks alone I did 2 services changes that would pay for that fine and still have a healthy profit leftover. 

Am I telling people to go out and do sidework? Absolutely not. To run a sidework-level legitimate business costs around $1,000-1,500/year for licensing, insurance, accounting, etc. So that is the better options if available. But if you are going to do sidework, make it worth while and charge large.


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## HertzHound (Jan 22, 2019)

Being in NJ and having a license, but not in Buisiness, meaning no Buisiness permit or insurance, is when you get screwed. Now they have something they can take away, and or fine you. You are actually better off not having a license if you’re not going to get the permit and insurance. I’m not sure what they can do to you without a license. 

That kids biggest mistake was doing work for a lawyer. I’m surprised the lawyer even paid him after the job was done. All the lawyer needed to do was ask for a receipt for the work. “No receipt, well then I’ll pay you what I fell like”. “I don’t care what our verbal agreement was”. I learned that lesson long ago. Don’t do work for lawyers. Their whole life revolves around putting the screws to people. 

On another note, I got a bunch of work I’m doing for my divorce lawyer. I am going to work off some of the money I owe him. Maybe after that I’ll drop my Buisiness permit and insurance. It’s the first time I used it in two years.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

HertzHound said:


> Maybe after that I’ll drop my Buisiness permit and insurance. It’s the first time I used it in two years.


The business permit and license fees are $75/year.
General Liability is $600.
If you are an LLC, then the tax return should not cost much extra if you do your own bookkeeping, which I assume you would do if you don't do much business. I pay my accountant $100 (or maybe $150) extra for the LLC.
$50 for the LLC's annual report.
The CEU's vary, but that cost gets split into 3 years.

That's all you need and it's under $1,000. You can make almost double that by doing 1 service upgrade a year. Keep it bro!


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## LARMGUY (Aug 22, 2010)




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## The_Modifier (Oct 24, 2009)

FFS , why doesn't anyone call me when these threads pop up?

And is the search button broken again? Someone might want to let the moderators and admin that never visit know.


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

The_Modifier said:


> FFS , why doesn't anyone call me when these threads pop up?
> 
> And is the search button broken again? Someone might want to let the moderators and admin that never visit know.


I think I reported it.
But, it's not too late for hotdog recipes. :smile:


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

stiffneck said:


> Can you be more specific for "Maintenance type work" you are referring to?


I'll give you an example, one of my customers is a real estate company, they own a number of multi-tenant buildings. They have maintenance staff that handle the routine maintenance like replacing light bulbs, (ok LAMPS lamps) as well as shoveling snow, mowing the grass, painting, changing locksets, etc. 

But over time the general mechanical aptitude and ability of their crew, well, let's just say it's not what it used to be, as people have retired. They could use someone to repair / replace switches, receptacles, ballasts, etc. (Of course someone that can do small plumbing repairs and HVAC maintenance would be even better.) 

He could charge a wage that's a lot lower than contractor rates but a lot higher than he's making at work and it would be beneficial for all parties. This would in my opinion be a better option than uninsured side work.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

HackWork said:


> "Its not worth the risk."
> 
> That's subjective. I did sidework for over 15 years, the amount of money that I made is immeasurable.
> 
> Your story shows an instance that is not only avoidable (don't hang fans from bakelite boxes alone, don't do sidework for lawyers, deny doing the work), but also very unlikely.


This is like saying car insurance is for suckers, lots of people drive uninsured (drunk even) and never have an accident. No harm, no foul, right?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

splatz said:


> I'll give you an example, one of my customers is a real estate company, they own a number of multi-tenant buildings. They have maintenance staff that handle the routine maintenance like replacing light bulbs, (ok LAMPS lamps) as well as shoveling snow, mowing the grass, painting, changing locksets, etc.
> 
> But over time the general mechanical aptitude and ability of their crew, well, let's just say it's not what it used to be, as people have retired. They could use someone to repair / replace switches, receptacles, ballasts, etc. (Of course someone that can do small plumbing repairs and HVAC maintenance would be even better.)
> 
> He could charge a wage that's a lot lower than contractor rates but a lot higher than he's making at work and it would be beneficial for all parties. This would in my opinion be a better option than uninsured side work.


He would still need insurance to do that work, especially in multi-family dwellings. In many areas (definitely mine), he would also need an electrical license to replace switches and outlets compliantly. 

That type of work done by a non-electrician isn't going to pay well. I see these guys all the time when I am called to come fix what they couldn't figure out and messed up, they are usually crackhead level.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

splatz said:


> This is like saying car insurance is for suckers, lots of people drive uninsured (drunk even) and never have an accident. No harm, no foul, right?


Risk vs. reward. 

I pay a minimal amount of insurance which protects me from losing a $40K asset to an uninsured driver, which has happened. So even if it wasn't required by law, I would probably still opt to purchase insurance.

You cut out a lot of my post. Doing side work and making -an amount of money that I am not even going to say- while risking a $2,500 fine is low risk, no?


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

HackWork said:


> He would still need insurance to do that work, especially in multi-family dwellings. In many areas (definitely mine), he would also need an electrical license to replace switches and outlets compliantly.
> 
> That type of work done by a non-electrician isn't going to pay well. I see these guys all the time when I am called to come fix what they couldn't figure out and messed up, they are usually crackhead level.


Here and I think most jurisdictions it's completely legal for in house maintenance to do repairs. It would be covered under the same insurance that covers the full time employees. 

It would pay whatever both parties agree to. Obviously he's not going to work for less than his day job's wage, they are not going to pay what they could get a contractor to do the work. In between, there's plenty of room to settle on a wage that works great for both parties.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

HackWork said:


> Risk vs. reward.
> 
> I pay a minimal amount of insurance which protects me from losing a $40K asset to an uninsured driver, which has happened. So even if it wasn't required by law, I would probably still opt to purchase insurance.
> 
> You cut out a lot of my post. Doing side work and making -an amount of money that I am not even going to say- while risking a $2,500 fine is low risk, no?


You can apply that logic to the fine for unlicensed work, but not insurance, there's no fixed risk to working uninsured.

Even if you have very few assets and bankrupting yourself or your corporation is no big deal to you, you have an ethical obligation to carry insurance for your customer's protection, so your mistake doesn't bankrupt THEM.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

splatz said:


> Here and I think most jurisdictions it's completely legal for in house maintenance to do repairs. It would be covered under the same insurance that covers the full time employees.
> 
> It would pay whatever both parties agree to. Obviously he's not going to work for less than his day job's wage, they are not going to pay what they could get a contractor to do the work. In between, there's plenty of room to settle on a wage that works great for both parties.


That sounds like a typical second job. I doubt it is going to pay any better than his fulltime job. It seems as if he wants to branch out into sidework (ie. Contracting Lite). It seems like a good opportunity to do so and get his license when eligible. 

As far as the legality of a maintenance guy doing electrical work, here he would need a journeyman license to change out receptacles and switches. I am not saying that they actually get someone with the license, but if you want him to be by the book...


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

splatz said:


> You can apply that logic to the fine for unlicensed work, but not insurance, there's no fixed risk to working uninsured.


 Agreed. But history tells us that the risk is very, very low. Once in a while you will see some stories like the lawyer/bakelite box one, but those have the likelihood of getting hit by lightning while winning the $300mil jackpot. And they can be avoided very easily, as explained earlier.



> Even if you have very few assets and bankrupting yourself or your corporation is no big deal to you, you have an ethical obligation to carry insurance for your customer's protection, so your mistake doesn't bankrupt THEM.


 Oh come on. Ease up on the theatrics. We are talking about an electrician doing sidework. 

Ethical obligation to the customer? The customer that got a sideworker to do it instead of a licensed and legitimate company? :biggrin:


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

HackWork said:


> Ethical obligation to the customer? The customer that got a sideworker to do it instead of a licensed and legitimate company? :biggrin:


Well yeah I agree if it's someone who gets him through a friend of a friend to save some money and fully understands that they're getting someone uninsured etc. That person knows the risk. 



But, if they put an ad in the pennysaver and gets a little old lady that doesn't understand he's not legitimate, then yes I am afraid that's unethical. 



A lot of the stuff that happens is not going to be super scary, but still expensive. Think about the commercial / industrial guys that come through side jobbing at residential. They might not kill someone with a flung off ceiling fan, but they might nick some pex line and ruin some drywall and flood a basement.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

splatz said:


> Well yeah I agree if it's someone who gets him through a friend of a friend to save some money and fully understands that they're getting someone uninsured etc. That person knows the risk.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Then they should pay dearly.

Like I said earlier, I am not saying that people should go out and do sidework. I'm just trying to be realistic about it.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

Pretty sure most guys have done a few side jobs before they got licensed. Not going to condone it, but that's the honest truth. 

If your not licensed, theres some really good advice on here already. Home Depot, Lowe's and many other such places are always hiring "weekend part-timers". I also imagine hotel/apt/housing authority type facilitates are always looking for more maintenance men, even part time evenings & weekend guys. You'll learn a lot doing this type of stuff, make some more money and not risk any legal reprocusions.

If you are licensed, get your self some cards to pass out and advertise that you're available for work on nights and weekends. This is a great way to get your feet wet and not have to worry about whether you are gonna be able to make it or not. 

As far as how much to charge....wow, so many ways to go about answering this question. 
1) as a rule of thumb, you want to bring as much money in one day as you normally would in a whole week of work. 
2) when calculating up what to charge, just know that you'll only get about a 1000 billable hrs out of a whole year. So keep that in mind. 
3) charge for overhead, warranty and profit on EVERY JOB. Even of your running a the ring circus out of your garage. My personal suggestion is 15-20% for overhead, 5% for warranty and 10-20% for profit. Others may have different opinions. 
4) here's a tough reality - people will not take you seriously if you don't charge like you should. You need to charge like your an actual legit business, cause you'll be dealing with the same issues that everyone else has to deal with and you will very quickly find yourself questioning "why" you are doing this, if you take on jobs that don't make any money. Be prepared. Charge accordingly. It's much better *not to get a job* that won't make any money, than *to get a job*and not make any money on it. 

Good luck and God bless!


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

50 years in the trade and maybe 4 side jobs 7 if you include houses I wired for family and friends under their homeowners permit.

BUT the number of electricians I know that did/do side work countless the number that got in trouble ZERO "0".


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

OP Do what you need to do BUT.
Remember a mistake now can screw you up for life.
You need to sleep at night, not worry about what if something goes wrong.
Is it really worth the money.

I shut my business down 15 years ago and I finally *almost* stopped worrying about the what if's. Even after all this time some lawyer might find my name on something, and business insurance ended some time ago.

Cowboy


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## Wardenclyffe (Jan 11, 2019)

Get a bucket truck, 



You can charge more,...


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## Quickservice (Apr 23, 2020)

Southeast Power said:


> Win,
> Just a few things come to mind.
> I don't want to condone people doing side jobs without proper license, insurance, and workman's comp.
> With that said,
> ...


Amen to the value of "Word of Mouth" 100% of my work comes that way.


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

One hit wonder
You guys scared another one straight, GOOD JOB.

Cowboy


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

just the cowboy said:


> One hit wonder
> You guys scared another one straight, GOOD JOB.
> 
> Cowboy


Hopefully, he beats feet to an apprenticeship & gets his card.


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## [email protected] (Dec 30, 2019)

*How to legally do side work*



catsparky1 said:


> Just a thought to keep in mind . If you get caught without a license or if you screw something up you might never work or get a license in the future . Its not worth the risk .
> 
> Example be this . One of our 2nd year guys who was a sharp kid hung a fan on a bakelite box . 2 months later it fell down on a kid who was sleeping . Daddy was an attorney . Dude got sued and we fired him . Last time I saw him he was working at a carwash . That was 4 or 5 years ago and he is still paying for the pain and suffering he caused . Daddy tried to sue us too and we spent tons of money keeping that pitbull of a lawyer off our a$$ and we sued him for the getting us into this mess .
> 
> We have tens of millions in insurance if it goes south you don't . Just think about what you do before you do it or you may never do again .


I personally don't want the liability of doing electrical work outside of my job. To each his/her own though. I'm not going to pass judgement on anyone that does.

I'm a 3rd year apprentice who knows that I don't know enough about this job to work myself out of some situations. Like a house that was wired years ago without any electrical code being enforced. I've been in those situations and was thankful to have an experienced electrician that was the responsible party who could offer up his help.


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## Kevin (Feb 14, 2017)

I'll admit that I've been asked to do some side jobs.... quite often. Problem if (for the people asking me), I already run my own company and know what I need to charge to make side jobs worth my time... and that rate is the same as what my boss charges me out at (i carry my own insurance, WSIB, etc, but I don't do side jobs). It is the same price to go through my boss.

Now, there *are* some side jobs that i will do, but those are simple things. Changing basic light fixtures, installing dimmers to replace switches, no power calls (these start as a side job, and if it's more than reset a breaker or AFCI or GFCI, it becomes a service call through the boss), changing a bathroom exhaust fan. All of these are done for clients we already have a working relationship with. New clients all go through the boss.

Ceiling fans are something that is not side job worthy, neither is any new wiring, or even something like replacing a GFCI receptacle. Let's say there's an issue with the GFCI and someone gets injured, without insurance you'll get sued, although technically you could get sued for anything, there's a list of stuff that I will not do for anyone but friends and family as a side job, and even then, I'll have to trust them (I don't trust many people...).

Now, want side jobs that pay good? Get into networking and security cameras (unless your state/province requires a license for this work). That's how my company started, and now I've incorporated and I am looking into new business ventures, including owning equipment i can rent to electrical contractors! I hope to grow to a million dollar a year business within 3 years.... and all of this started as part time work doing low voltage cabling!

Now, I also have filler work that only pays 20$/hour cash doing drywall, framing, tile, etc. This i can do whenever the guy has work, if i want the work, and i can make my own hours. This isn't enough for me to live off of, but it's better than sitting on the couch at home! This is for days we don't have work, evenings or weekends.


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## LARMGUY (Aug 22, 2010)

Winthrope said:


> Hello everyone
> I am working on the side trying to make money with the little skills I have but I don't want to beat myself by under bidding my jobs. My question is ; where can I find a book or online file with pay rates for the jobs I do? From residential to small commercial pay.


https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_nat.htm


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## JRas (Sep 20, 2017)

side work makes the dream work


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