# any open shops convert to union lately?



## berkey (Jan 22, 2008)

are any of you contractors or working for contractors who converted from an open shop to a union shop in the last 2 years? why did they go? would they do it again?


----------



## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

Why not ask if any Union guys would go non union?


----------



## John (Jan 22, 2007)

randomkiller said:


> Why not ask if any Union guys would go non union?


For the right job and under certain circumstances I would go either way. :thumbup:


----------



## berkey (Jan 22, 2008)

probably wouldn't happen. around here the only thing the union hates more than non union, are ex union members being non union.


----------



## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

John said:


> For the right job and under certain circumstances I would go either way. :thumbup:


Ah, a switch hitter.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

I know of one local shop that did. They are no longer in business.


----------



## John (Jan 22, 2007)

randomkiller said:


> Ah, a switch hitter.


Yep. There are advantages to being on either side of the fence ...so to speak.
I have been there and done that.


----------



## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

When I crossed over, I thought that if I ever wanted, I could always go back non-union. 

After two years on the union side, I know now, I am NEVER going back!

The level of professionalism, compensation, and way the people are treated is superior. The 'Book' works much better than I expected. Everything I was ever told on the other side about the union was grossly exaggerated or a lie.

I have no hard feelings at all towards non-union guys, I just wish more of them would wise up so we could make more. Some of the best electricians I know, who mean well, stay non-union only because they are afraid the union guys are going to dog them out if they join up. Never really happened to me... matter of fact, I've worked with alot more people like myself than anyone else.


----------



## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

there is a distinct difference in views between electricians and electrical contractors...who are you referring to in the OP?


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

480sparky said:


> I know of one local shop that did. They are no longer in business.


I know quite a few shops that went union. Most are thriving, the ones that didn't AFAIC had no business being in business in the first place. The industry can only legitimately support a finite number of business's. Once that number is reached, the only chance of surviving and ecking out a living for a business owner is to do everything on the sly.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

miller_elex said:


> When I crossed over, I thought that if I ever wanted, I could always go back non-union.
> 
> After two years on the union side, I know now, I am NEVER going back!
> 
> The level of professionalism, compensation, and way the people are treated is superior. The 'Book' works much better than I expected. Everything I was ever told on the other side about the union was grossly exaggerated or a lie.


I hear it every week. Most of what a nonunion contractors or nonunion tradesman talk about is not from personal experience, just tales of woe, bar talk, outright lies and fabrications handed down from one boss to the next. 

It's a pretty darn good statement, in and of itself, that you never hear about the union workers looking for a nonunion gig. 



> I have no hard feelings at all towards non-union guys, I just wish more of them would wise up so we could make more. Some of the best electricians I know, who mean well, stay non-union only because they are afraid the union guys are going to dog them out if they join up. Never really happened to me... matter of fact, I've worked with alot more people like myself than anyone else.


Never blame the men. Everyone has to put food on the table somehow.


----------



## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

we get calls weekly from out of work union electricians looking for work (they've outlasted their unemployment)

i agree with the wages, et al...but, why do so many union electricians become non-union electrical contractors?


----------



## liverstos (Jun 11, 2007)

miller_elex said:


> When I crossed over, I thought that if I ever wanted, I could always go back non-union.
> 
> After two years on the union side, I know now, I am NEVER going back!
> 
> ...


As an ex-union electrician, I can say that I have no hard feelings towards the union electricians, in fact I have been allowed to employ a union shop to help out at our plant. I can say that I left them alone to do the work, and because of the job they did, they are welcome back anytime. 
I was given the boot from the union because I couldn't pay my dues, because I was book 2 everywhere, and I could only sit and watch the same book 1 hands dispatch out on long calls week after week. I am still not anti-union because they gave me my start in the trade, and I know unions have been a positive force for society as a whole. I still direct people interested in becoming an electrician, to contact the local jatc, but not to overlook the non union apprenticeships.


----------



## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

oldman said:


> ... why do so many union electricians become non-union electrical contractors?



Probably because of the feast/famine cycle.


----------



## nap (Dec 26, 2007)

oldman said:


> we get calls weekly from out of work union electricians looking for work (they've outlasted their unemployment)
> 
> i agree with the wages, et al...but, why do so many union electricians become non-union electrical contractors?


because they see dollar signs all over the place. Some of them have visions of grandeur and think of all the money they can put in their pocket if they didn;t have to pay all those danged union benefits they are used to receiving. Some simply see all the overhead as an unsurmountable expense that would prevent them from becoming a contractor.

Both are true to a point but are the result of short sightedness generally. While a single man shop, they can break all the rules they want but when they start employing others, especially those looking for at least a few benefits (insurance etc) they realize that they cannot escape much of the overhead they tried to and end up being relegated to a staying a one man shop or a non-union shop that has difficulty employing good electricians because the good electricians, be they union or non-union, are working where the contractor will pay them what they deserve and include some bene's.

If you want good electricians, you have to be willing to pay what the market demands. it makes no difference if you are union or not.


----------



## nap (Dec 26, 2007)

liverstos said:


> I was given the boot from the union because I couldn't pay my dues, because I was book 2 everywhere, and I could only sit and watch the same book 1 hands dispatch out on long calls week after week. I am still not anti-union because they gave me my start in the trade, and I know unions have been a positive force for society as a whole. I still direct people interested in becoming an electrician, to contact the local jatc, but not to overlook the non union apprenticeships.


Sorry to hear of you rexperience. The union experinece is not one without some flaws although they generally are not of union making but of some individual(s) that improperly control their local.

Glas to hear it has not soured you totally and you do understand the originations of the unions. That is a very important point that many simply overlook or ignore.

Curious though; I know of no non-union apprenticeships in my area. What such entities are there out there in the rest of the world? ABC? I was told (by a person very close to a regional director in California) that they are very code oriented and lack the theory level training the IBEW provides. While that may make a good construction hand, it does not make a good electrician.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

liverstos said:


> As an ex-union electrician, I can say that I have no hard feelings towards the union electricians, in fact I have been allowed to employ a union shop to help out at our plant. I can say that I left them alone to do the work, and because of the job they did, they are welcome back anytime.
> I was given the boot from the union because I couldn't pay my dues, because I was book 2 everywhere, and I could only sit and watch the same book 1 hands dispatch out on long calls week after week. I am still not anti-union because they gave me my start in the trade, and I know unions have been a positive force for society as a whole. I still direct people interested in becoming an electrician, to contact the local jatc, but not to overlook the non union apprenticeships.


I'm confused, you had to be book 1 somewhere.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

nap said:


> because they see dollar signs all over the place. Some of them have visions of grandeur and think of all the money they can put in their pocket if they didn;t have to pay all those danged union benefits they are used to receiving. Some simply see all the overhead as an unsurmountable expense that would prevent them from becoming a contractor.
> 
> Both are true to a point but are the result of short sightedness generally. While a single man shop, they can break all the rules they want but when they start employing others, especially those looking for at least a few benefits (insurance etc) they realize that they cannot escape much of the overhead they tried to and end up being relegated to a staying a one man shop or a non-union shop that has difficulty employing good electricians because the good electricians, be they union or non-union, are working where the contractor will pay them what they deserve and include some bene's.
> 
> If you want good electricians, you have to be willing to pay what the market demands. it makes no difference if you are union or not.


It takes money to make money. Many businesses fail because many businessmen believe there is some way of escaping that fact.


----------



## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

nap said:


> because they see dollar signs all over the place. Some of them have visions of grandeur and think of all the money they can put in their pocket if they didn;t have to pay all those danged union benefits they are used to receiving. Some simply see all the overhead as an unsurmountable expense that would prevent them from becoming a contractor.
> 
> Both are true to a point but are the result of short sightedness generally. While a single man shop, they can break all the rules they want but when they start employing others, especially those looking for at least a few benefits (insurance etc) they realize that they cannot escape much of the overhead they tried to and end up being relegated to a staying a one man shop or a non-union shop that has difficulty employing good electricians because the good electricians, be they union or non-union, are working where the contractor will pay them what they deserve and include some bene's.
> 
> If you want good electricians, you have to be willing to pay what the market demands. it makes no difference if you are union or not.


that's a lot of words to not answer my question...


----------



## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> I'm confused, you had to be book 1 somewhere.


not necessarily...we had a guy working for us a few years back that got into the union down in North Carolina...he was originally from NJ, and moved back here after a divorce...so while he may have been on book one in NC, here in NJ he was a traveler and relegated to book 2...so, he got tired of signing in every week for nothing and came to work for us...


----------



## sparkboy (Jan 2, 2008)

"Never blame the men. Everyone has to put food on the table somehow."

Thanks for stating that. Probably the first union guy I've heard say that. Most union guys I have run across call us scabs. Even though the union doesn't have enough jobs for everybody they don't care if you have to feed your family. You are a scab to them and you and your family can starve for all they care.

However, when the time comes to do unlicensed side work they say "hey, you gotta put food on the table somehow."


----------



## sparkboy (Jan 2, 2008)

I want to say I don't mean that about all union guys, just the ones I run across in my area. And also, I was union but left after months and months of no work, got my license and am a non-union one man shop now.


----------



## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

oldman said:


> not necessarily...we had a guy working for us a few years back that got into the union down in North Carolina...he was originally from NJ, and moved back here after a divorce...so while he may have been on book one in NC, here in NJ he was a traveler and relegated to book 2...so, he got tired of signing in every week for nothing and came to work for us...


 
Don't guess. Those were a lot of words to not answer any question.


----------



## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> I'm confused, you had to be book 1 somewhere.
> 
> 
> oldman said:
> ...


He was still Book I...but back in NC, not NJ.

Book I applies to your "home" local...once you pass it's borders and sign a book elsewhere ~ it's Book II.


----------



## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

sparkboy said:


> "Never blame the men. Everyone has to put food on the table somehow."
> 
> Thanks for stating that. Probably the first union guy I've heard say that. Most union guys I have run across call us scabs. Even though the union doesn't have enough jobs for everybody they don't care if you have to feed your family. You are a scab to them and you and your family can starve for all they care.
> 
> However, when the time comes to do unlicensed side work they say "hey, you gotta put food on the table somehow."


 
I have been Union since 1986, never been laid off unless I wanted to be (to go hunting/vacation/etc). I have gone out on the road as a traveller a few times to change the pace a bit. There is always work somewhere. Yeah, we all have to eat and I don't know anyone that would hold that against you.


----------



## Idaho Abe (Nov 28, 2007)

*Union shop*

No union shops in N Idaho


----------



## nap (Dec 26, 2007)

oldman said:


> that's a lot of words to not answer my question...


and how did that not answer your question. Truth be told there are myriad reasons as to why this happens. I gave you two expamples of why it does happen so what else do ya want????




> sparkboy: However, when the time comes to do unlicensed side work they say "hey, you gotta put food on the table somehow."


the last guys they caught doing side work in my local got fined $5000 by the union. It is not acceptable...period.


----------



## sparkboy (Jan 2, 2008)

nap said:


> the last guys they caught doing side work in my local got fined $5000 by the union. It is not acceptable...period.


IBEW does not accept it here either. However, it happens all the time. One guy I know is stupid enough to have business cards with his name on them.


----------



## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

randomkiller said:


> Don't guess. Those were a lot of words to not answer any question.





Celtic said:


> He was still Book I...but back in NC, not NJ.
> 
> Book I applies to your "home" local...once you pass it's borders and sign a book elsewhere ~ it's Book II.


no guessing...celtic is correct...when the guy signed in up here (in NJ) he was told 10-14 months (this was about 4 yrs ago)...


----------



## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

randomkiller said:


> I have been Union since 1986, never been laid off unless I wanted to be (to go hunting/vacation/etc). I have gone out on the road as a traveller a few times to change the pace a bit. There is always work somewhere. Yeah, we all have to eat and I don't know anyone that would hold that against you.


I know guys who will work 40 yrs in the union and only be off if there is mandatory furlough...but they are typically called "Mutts"...I call them smart...


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

In 37 years I have missed one day, 8 years open shop, 6 years union, 9 months PW, 23 years operating my own shop.

I was laid off from a union company, the book had a wait of 1 year or more, I asked what was I to do, I was told do what you have too. I had a job the next day prevailing wage (a friend worked there got me on) for 9 months as it ended a testing company contacted me about working for them. Many men sat on the bench for a year.

This was one of the worst periods in Washington DC employment history no work either side of the street.


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Fact is you never discuss religion and politics and on this site maybe open shop VS union. The discussions are OK by me, but realize many/most have made up their minds and little you say or do will swing them to play with your team.


----------



## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

brian john said:


> Fact is you never discuss religion and politics and on this site maybe open shop VS union. The discussions are OK by me, but realize many/most have made up their minds and little you say or do will swing them to play with your team.


it's not so much about swinging them...it's more about making people think...nothing is right for everyone...but nothing is wrong for everyone either...


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

oldman said:


> it's not so much about swinging them...it's more about making people think...nothing is right for everyone...but nothing is wrong for everyone either...


Point made, point taken.


----------



## HighWirey (Sep 17, 2007)

oldman said:


> but, why do so many union electricians become non-union electrical contractors?


I know three of those 'reverse polarity' guys, two former boss-partners, and myself. 

And I have experienced dead heads in both fair and unfair quarters.

Drat Kids,
'Fair/unfair was one of my New Year Revolutions'. 

Guess that was one that timed out early . . .

Best Wishes Everyone in 2008


----------



## berkey (Jan 22, 2008)

so there are no new union contractors here. i think if i ever went it would have to be when business is boomin


----------



## tpr (Jan 10, 2008)

berkey said:


> so there are no new union contractors here. i think if i ever went it would have to be when business is boomin


 
it all depends on what part of the country. n.c. and florida have signed a lot of contractors. the northeast i'm sure very few, the economy is down but new contractors are still signing up. agreements have changed quite a bit over the years .with market recovery,small works agreements,and "b" rate have made new and old signatory contractors more competitive.some locals have residential agreements and do most of the residential in there juristictions. you sound like your remotely interested in learning about it . just call the local in your area. you can be annonymous , just ask questions.


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

At this point with all the doom and gloomers in the news, Wall Street and government, I would think if my business was operating without any problems I would not make a move, unless I had a major project and needed lots of help quickly.


----------



## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

brian john said:


> At this point with all the doom and gloomers in the news, Wall Street and government, I would think if my business was operating without any problems I would not make a move, unless I had a major project and needed lots of help quickly.


 
Your right about that. The company that took over the one I work for is pretty large. I can't believe all the stuff in the monthly newsletter. They have jobs worldwide and run an open jobs bulletin board that has some nice places to go with plenty of variety.


----------



## liverstos (Jun 11, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> I'm confused, you had to be book 1 somewhere.


According to my former home local agreement, to sign book 1, an electrician has to have residence in the local jurisdiction, have worked 2000 hours in the local during the last four years, and have either served an apprenticeship, or meet the work hours requirements to obtain JW status. As I no longer lived in the area, and had not worked there for over four years, I was told by the office staff that I could no longer sign book one.


----------



## nap (Dec 26, 2007)

liverstos said:


> According to my former home local agreement, to sign book 1, an electrician has to have residence in the local jurisdiction, have worked 2000 hours in the local during the last four years, and have either served an apprenticeship, or meet the work hours requirements to obtain JW status. As I no longer lived in the area, and had not worked there for over four years, I was told by the office staff that I could no longer sign book one.


 
My local does someting similar. Can't remember all the specifics though but if you work in another local, the hours requirement is all but removed. It is basically so guys don;t work somewhere other than a signatory employer and remain on the book.

So, what were the requirements for getting on book 1 in the area you lived in?


----------



## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

tpr said:


> you sound like your remotely interested in learning about it . just call the local in your area. you can be annonymous , just ask questions.


Brian John, this is why we have these posts...this here is information that most guys who have never been in the union don't know. 

Now, if you are in a local with a good BA, you have a shot...if your locals BA is not so nice to those who didn't come up through the IBEW, not so much of a shot...

but it's definitely worth the phone call to get some info...


----------



## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

randomkiller said:


> Your right about that. The company that took over the one I work for is pretty large. I can't believe all the stuff in the monthly newsletter. They have jobs worldwide and run an open jobs bulletin board that has some nice places to go with plenty of variety.


random, you're killing my curiosity...who bought your company? :laughing:


----------



## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

oldman said:


> random, you're killing my curiosity...who bought your company? :laughing:



I'm going with Emcor :thumbsup:


----------



## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

Celtic said:


> I'm going with Emcor :thumbsup:


that was my thought too...or possibly Carrier (they bought out Fairfield Refrigeration a few years back)...


----------



## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

oldman said:


> random, you're killing my curiosity...who bought your company? :laughing:


It's a subsidiary of Emcorgroup, I thought I had said before at somepoint. They bought us out a while ago and just put some of their people in the first week of the year.


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Emcor has bought 4 or 5 shops in our area.


----------



## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

brian john said:


> Emcor has bought 4 or 5 shops in our area.


 
Same here, two of the shops we have been working with and a another one more north.


----------



## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

they have been growing pretty quick of the past few years...does explain the increase in Emcor trucks in the area...prior, they had been mostly north of here...


----------



## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

randomkiller said:


> It's a subsidiary of Emcorgroup, ...


I dunno if you did?

Emcor seems the only player with any money left for "acquisitions and mergers" :thumbsup:


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

oldman said:


> not necessarily...we had a guy working for us a few years back that got into the union down in North Carolina...he was originally from NJ, and moved back here after a divorce...so while he may have been on book one in NC, here in NJ he was a traveler and relegated to book 2...so, he got tired of signing in every week for nothing and came to work for us...


OK color me stupid but, he HAS to be book 1 somewhere. Has to be in order to be book 2 somewhere else. If not, he's just book 3 or 4. Maybe an organized hand in one local, and immediately travelled somewhere else and signed book 2 before he met the minimum work requirements.


----------



## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

Book 3....Book 4?

Maybe in the JIB....but no where else I've ever heard of.

If he got organized and didn't meet the requirements (through, schooling, OJT, testing, etc) he would never have been issued a card....and speaking of cards, the home local wouldn't send him a dues receipt w/o the classification being completed.

No dues receipt = no work.


----------



## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> OK color me stupid but, he HAS to be book 1 somewhere. Has to be in order to be book 2 somewhere else. If not, he's just book 3 or 4. Maybe an organized hand in one local, and immediately travelled somewhere else and signed book 2 before he met the minimum work requirements.


i've already answered this...



oldman said:


> not necessarily...we had a guy working for us a few years back that got into the union down in North Carolina...he was originally from NJ, and moved back here after a divorce...so while he may have been on book one in NC, here in NJ he was a traveler and relegated to book 2...so, he got tired of signing in every week for nothing and came to work for us...





Celtic said:


> He was still Book I...but back in NC, not NJ.
> 
> Book I applies to your "home" local...once you pass it's borders and sign a book elsewhere ~ it's Book II.


----------



## faber307 (Jan 22, 2007)

I vote union members be aloud to perform all the residential side work they want. (in my state)

I just don't see the ibew getting enough residential market share to keep these guys from it.

Everybody knows somebody and is looking for someone to work for cash.

I used to moonlight for extra fun money.
Let those young guys go after it.
And for the guys laid off for extended periods, some rope work for cash probably sounds pretty good.

Commercial and Industrial? The local has to draw the line somewhere.


----------



## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

Tab Faber said:


> I vote union members be aloud to perform all the residential side work they want. (in my state)
> 
> I just don't see the ibew getting enough residential market share to keep these guys from it.
> 
> ...


so basically "screw every contractor who isn't a large commercial/industrial union outfit"? ok, fair enough..


----------



## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

Tab Faber said:


> I vote union members be aloud to perform all the residential side work they want. (in my state)


I didn't know it was up for a vote (in your State or any another State)?
BTW, just what State are you in?
Many States have laws that have to do with licensing, insurance, bonding, CE credits/classes, etc.




Tab Faber said:


> I just don't see the ibew getting enough residential market share to keep these guys from it.


...and just why is that?
Does your local have a residential division?





Tab Faber said:


> Everybody knows somebody and is looking for someone to work for cash.
> 
> I used to moonlight for extra fun money.
> Let those young guys go after it.
> And for the guys laid off for extended periods, some rope work for cash probably sounds pretty good.


Just because everyone knows someone and cash sounds good - it might just be illegal ...I know what you purpose IS illegal in NJ.


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

*Question to Celtic*

How does it work with the IBEW for guys that hold a NJ license and work out of the hall? Several of the new guys that work with us now hold their own licenses. Do they just hold the license and not get a bond and work permit, or is the bond a requirment for the license? Just wondering.


----------



## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

MechanicalDVR said:


> How does it work with the IBEW for guys that hold a NJ license and work out of the hall?



The local doesn't care if you get a electrical license(EL) or not - they DO care if you obtain a business permit(BP). Having the BP would allow you to be a "bona fide" Electrical Contractor (EC)...thus competing with the signatory ECs. 
NJ has one flavor of EC which allows the holder to contract work in any occupancy from a SFH to a nuke plant.

One of the agreements YOU make with the IBEW as a member is that "you will not engage in the business of electrical contracting" ~ maybe not the exact wording, but close enough ...and I believe it is category 1 language. Which goes back to the bit about competing with the sig. ECs.




MechanicalDVR said:


> Several of the new guys that work with us now hold their own licenses. Do they just hold the license and not get a bond and work permit, or is the bond a requirment for the license? Just wondering.


The EL is just a license - which allows you to do NO work.
To be an an EC, you need the EL, BP, ins., bonding, etc. which would allow you to contract for work.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Tab Faber said:


> I vote union members be aloud to perform all the residential side work they want. (in my state)
> 
> I just don't see the ibew getting enough residential market share to keep these guys from it.
> 
> ...


I agree, in jurisdictions where the IBEW doesn't have any appreciable residential marketshare, it should allow it's members to do this work legitimately.


----------



## InControl (Mar 20, 2007)

Caught behind a rock and a hard place...


The union wants you to follow there rules...NO SIDE WORK! 

Non-union wants you to follow there rules...NO SIDE WORK!


Because, as we all know, all side work will ultimately result in a family dwelling burning down, and all residents will die a fiery death. 

Hack electricians are working everywhere, look out your window, you will probably see many houses burning down as we speak. 

Lets be honest with our selves here......It doesn't take a rocket scientist to wire a house. You could train an orangutan to do it. I'm sure i'll get flamed for that comment, but seriously, is it that difficult?

So who should we rely on as far as regulation? If I want to add a bathroom to a house that I just bought, can I do it myself? or do I need a 'government' supplied contractor that has 'payed his dues' and now is qualified to work on my plumbing. 

My point being, that as a free society, that which we have enjoyed thus far......be careful what you ask for, because it just may come true......


----------



## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

InControl said:


> Lets be honest with our selves here......It doesn't take a rocket scientist to wire a house. You could train an orangutan to do it. I'm sure i'll get flamed for that comment, but seriously, is it that difficult?
> 
> .....be careful what you ask for, because it just may come true......



Be very careful what you ask for.


----------



## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

this is like the current debate over immigration...some people are neglecting a single word "illegal"....


----------



## sparkboy (Jan 2, 2008)

InControl said:


> Caught behind a rock and a hard place...
> 
> 
> The union wants you to follow there rules...NO SIDE WORK!
> ...


Driving a car is easy too, but do you want a bunch of unlicensed idiots out on the road?

You obviously have no idea of the time, effort, money, and mental stress that is associated with starting a legal, legitimate, licensed contracting business. As far as "paying our dues" to be allowed to operate, yes we have paid our dues.

And I've never heard of a 'government' supplied contractor. I don't know where you live.

As far as you adding a bathroom to your own house, alot of communitites allow the homeowner to pull their own permits, but you will be inspected.
That is so you and your orangutan don't mess up your plumbing and contaminate your families drinking water.:thumbsup:


----------



## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

sparkboy said:


> I don't know where you live.


The pot calling the kettle black ? :blink:

Why don't you update your profile so we have some idea where you are? :thumbup:

<~~~I'm from Joisey - you from Joisey?


----------



## sparkboy (Jan 2, 2008)

Celtic said:


> The pot calling the kettle black ? :blink:
> 
> Why don't you update your profile so we have some idea where you are? :thumbup:
> 
> <~~~I'm from Joisey - you from Joisey?


ooops.:whistling2: 

I live and work in the suburbs of Chicago.


----------



## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

sparkboy said:


> ooops.:whistling2:


LMAO :laughing:


Thanks :thumbsup:


----------



## faber307 (Jan 22, 2007)

oldman said:


> so basically "screw every contractor who isn't a large commercial/industrial union outfit"? ok, fair enough..


The statement was in regard to the union coming down on it's members for side work. 

Now guys doing side work getting caught by inspectors, That is their problem.

I did not mean for every first year cub to get out there and wire houses.

But the men that make their living doing electrical work and find themselves out of ligitament employment will naturally take on some cash work when it comes available.

Take it easy, not every electrician can make it as a contractor.
Not every contractor can make it as an electrician!


----------



## Mach (Dec 17, 2007)

InControl said:


> My point being, that as a free society, that which we have enjoyed thus far......be careful what you ask for, because it just may come true......


This statement is True, I'm not even going to waste my time debating it 

I have heard of no shops lately going union or non. I hear more of shops voting a union out. Not sure how it turns out.

My experience is that most union shops that I worked in have low moral. only one shop really really hated outside non-union contractors. I don't blame them. They're trying to make a stand and here comes little ol me blundering in.

When I was moon lighting I got a few mailings from the local union. I guess it depends on what craft I was in and location if I would be a union shop. 

Know matter who you are, electrician or contractor you have to look out for yourself. When the AX comes down it comes down.


----------



## excellencee (Feb 20, 2008)

I understand needing to feed your family, but how can a guy bitch about no work when he's doing side work for his wages. As you guys all know it costs alot more than wages to operate a business. If a guy competes against a signatory contactor...never mind, you get the point. I've lost houses to all of them from apprentices to International Reps!! The boys at the hall didn't seem to mind any of the side work but don't get caught hiring outside the hall. They told me they can fine you the entire cost of the job, per the agreement. I told they when they uphold their end of it, I'll uphold my end of it. Sorry to rant, but I gave the hall the names of the guys, the job location and even the cell phone numbers of a few of the guys and they wouldn't do a thing. All but one of them were working for signatory contractors while doing side work.


----------



## berkey (Jan 22, 2008)

I do not think that the local cares about what laid off journeymen are doing on their off time. As long as it is starving, going into foreclosure, or taking work from a legit open shop. As long as they don't take work from a union shop their cool. I do think the union cares about their men, but not as much as closing non signed shops. Even if it means signing fifteen hundred guys when the market only needs four hundred.


----------



## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

berkey said:


> I do not think that the local cares about what laid off journeymen are doing on their off time.
> 
> As long as they don't take work from a union shop their cool.
> 
> Even if it means signing fifteen hundred guys when the market only needs four hundred.


Clearly, that doesn't add up.
If you think 900 out of work(OOW) union guys is going to have zero impact on union shops you are living in a fantasy world.

Not every union shop is mega-electric....there are plenty of small shops - even one-man shops - both of whom regularly perform residential work: service ups, CF installs, etc. ...even wire new homes as a regular event.
If even 1/3 of the OOW's are dumped into the resi. market - there is an impact.

Of that 300+/- OOW...how many would actually be qualified to perform the resi work? (By qualified, I mean have all necessary licenses, business permits, insurance, etc as required by the geographic location). If that is again 1/3 that are qualified....100 "new" contractors. That would definitely have an impact.

The Union does care if you take market share from their signatory contractors while OOW - even the resi. signatory contractors Their is Category 1 language in the agreement that members signed with the local, that prohibits members from "engaging in the business of electrical contracting" (or very similar language).


----------



## excellencee (Feb 20, 2008)

Forget the licenses, insurance, etc. How many j-men can wire a 3-way switch? Not to bust on them because every one of them can out-pipe me, but I've had to fix switches and even teach one how to hard wire a residential dishwasher. I don't claim to be an industrial electrician. It's not that ones harder than the other, just different.


----------



## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

excellencee said:


> Forget the licenses, insurance, etc. How many j-men can wire a 3-way switch? Not to bust on them because every one of them can out-pipe me, but I've had to fix switches and even teach one how to hard wire a residential dishwasher. I don't claim to be an industrial electrician. It's not that ones harder than the other, just different.


I've seen many guys that can't wire up a furnace or heat pump t-stat but a dishwasher? How long after the brain surgery did you have to teach the guy?


----------



## excellencee (Feb 20, 2008)

He's a great electrician and a good friend. He just never saw one before and spent 45 minutes trying to find the junction box. After that, no problem.


----------



## electricalperson (Jan 11, 2008)

i worked for a shop when i just got out of high school. one night they called everyone and laid them off because they turned into a union shop. last i heard they are out of business. i dont think they were the best of business owners. we never had any work.


----------



## wirehaired (Apr 4, 2008)

randomkiller said:


> Why not ask if any Union guys would go non union?


I did. Why? moved to another state tried to transfer my ticket was refused and treated like a criminal during the interview process? I have a college degree and did the five year stint. They could of just told me work picture was bad etc...but they tried to intimidate me.... technically if you live in another juris. for a year they have to accept you......but who wants to force your way in and then be an outcast? the union is a great place if your on the inside looking out, but once your on the outside....... your perspective can change.....go buddyhood. What did I do? looked for another union job(maintenance)....turned out to be the worst job of my life......now I am an independant contractor and loving it......


----------



## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

yep, ironically most union electricians who go out on their own, go non-union...go figure


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

wirehaired said:


> I did. Why? moved to another state tried to transfer my ticket was refused and treated like a criminal during the interview process? I have a college degree and did the five year stint. They could of just told me work picture was bad etc...but they tried to intimidate me.... technically if you live in another juris. for a year they have to accept you......but who wants to force your way in and then be an outcast? the union is a great place if your on the inside looking out, but once your on the outside....... your perspective can change.....go buddyhood. What did I do? looked for another union job(maintenance)....turned out to be the worst job of my life......now I am an independant contractor and loving it......


Amazing! You JUST joined today and proved Oldman's point! Simply amazing... :jester:


----------



## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Amazing! You JUST joined today and proved Oldman's point! Simply amazing... :jester:


i wish i could take credit for an alter ego...sorry...but there you go jumping to assumptions...ain't you tired yet?:laughing:


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

oldman said:


> i wish i could take credit for an alter ego...sorry...but there you go jumping to assumptions...ain't you tired yet?:laughing:


Now, why would YOU assume that? I never mentioned alter ego. Now who is jumping to assumptions? :whistling2:


----------



## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Now, why would YOU assume that? I never mentioned alter ego. Now who is jumping to assumptions? :whistling2:


you are bad at this game...keep practicing...still too transparent...


----------



## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

wirehaired said:


> I did. Why? moved to another state tried to transfer my ticket was refused and treated like a criminal during the interview process? I have a college degree and did the five year stint. They could of just told me work picture was bad etc...but they tried to intimidate me.... technically if you live in another juris. for a year they have to accept you......but who wants to force your way in and then be an outcast? the union is a great place if your on the inside looking out, but once your on the outside....... your perspective can change.....go buddyhood. What did I do? looked for another union job(maintenance)....turned out to be the worst job of my life......now I am an independant contractor and loving it......


 
Sorry to hear you had such a bad experience. I looked into changing locals when I moved to NJ from NY. They had plenty of work and it wouldn't have been much of a problem to relocate, but I handled it on the up and up through BA's. I ended up staying in my same local.


----------



## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

oldman said:


> yep, ironically most union electricians who go out on their own, go non-union...go figure


 
Sure they do, so they can use cheap ass labor and not pay real bennies, you don't have to be an accountant to figure the cheapest way to start a business. God forbid you were just starting out and had to give a guy health and welfare benefits.


----------



## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

randomkiller said:


> Sure they do, so they can use cheap ass labor and not pay real bennies, you don't have to be an accountant to figure the cheapest way to start a business. God forbid you were just starting out and had to give a guy health and welfare benefits.


even your brother lawnguy realizes that the contractor merely handles the money...the customer pays for it...so,if the union is such a good deal for everyone, why don't they just go after the work that allows them to charge the customer enough money to employ union labor?


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

oldman said:


> even your brother lawnguy realizes that the contractor merely handles the money...the customer pays for it...so,if the union is such a good deal for everyone, why don't they just go after the work that allows them to charge the customer enough money to employ union labor?


Gee I was under the impression they did and do. That is why the unions don't go after residential.


----------



## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

oldman said:


> yep, ironically most union electricians who go out on their own, go non-union...go figure





randomkiller said:


> Sure they do, so they can use cheap ass labor and not pay real bennies, you don't have to be an accountant to figure the cheapest way to start a business. God forbid you were just starting out and had to give a guy health and welfare benefits.





oldman said:


> even your brother lawnguy realizes that the contractor merely handles the money...the customer pays for it...so,if the union is such a good deal for everyone, why don't they just go after the work that allows them to charge the customer enough money to employ union labor?





MechanicalDVR said:


> Gee I was under the impression they did and do. That is why the unions don't go after residential.


wow...they really need to offer reading comprehension classes to you guys...the question was "since the contractor merely handles the money, and the customer pays for everything, why don't union electricians who become contractors, charge the customer enough to pay for union employees and all their benefits?"

does that make more sense?


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

oldman said:


> wow...they really need to offer reading comprehension classes to you guys...the question was "since the contractor merely handles the money, and the customer pays for everything, why don't union electricians who become contractors, charge the customer enough to pay for union employees and all their benefits?"
> 
> does that make more sense?


Hmm, have you been to the eye doctor lately because what you just wrote as an explaination of what you had previously written is like trying to follow a G Bush speech, none of it seems to have been in the earlier statement other than "since the contractor merely handles the money and the customer pays for everything" . Maybe take a few more of your old timers meds before posting those long confusing statements that you are the only one that can seem to follow.


----------



## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Gee I was under the impression they did and do. That is why the unions don't go after residential.


seems to me, they have been going after it for quite awhile...

http://www.ibew.org/articles/99journal/9903/9903GoingHome.pdf

http://www.ibewflorida.org/orgnotes/050919_agreements.htm

http://www.ibew481.com/staffdetails.cfm?staff_ID=12 (heck these guys are targeting resi non-union contractors in an effort to increase their resi market share)

http://www.ibew353.org/ourprofile/scopeofwork/reslowrise/scopealliance.htm (canada too)

http://www.ibew46.org/agreements/040505ResidentialAgreement.pdf (shoot, their total package in 2005 for a residential wireman was under $25...that's not a lot...why don't more contractors jump on this program?)

make 1 thing perfectly clear, i believe that for most employees, the union benefits are fantastic. i also believe that for the contractor, too large a % of union employees aren't worth what they are being paid...there are guys who are though...no dispute there...there are some phenomenal electricians in the union...but one memory that sticks in my mind was being on site with a Con-Ed employee...this was when I was in college and interning for an environmental remediation firm...we were cleaning a man hole, so the Con-Ed guys could go in and work...and what I will never forget is the one Con-Ed employee saying "They (Con-Ed) pay me from the neck down"

that just stuck in my head...take it for what it's worth...

but mostly, the unions still view the contractors as the enemy...that's gotta change...


----------



## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

oldman said:


> even your brother lawnguy realizes that the *contractor* merely handles the money...the customer pays for it...so,if the union is such a good deal for everyone, why don't *they* (*the contractor*) just go after the work that allows *them* (*the contractor*) to charge the customer enough money to employ union labor?


does that clarify it for you? no wonder this country is in trouble...


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

oldman said:


> does that clarify it for you? no wonder this country is in trouble...


As long as it makes you feel better.


----------



## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

MechanicalDVR said:


> As long as it makes you feel better.


touché...

i'll add the definition for you, so you can follow along

tou·ché play_w("T0287100") (t







)_interj._ Used to acknowledge a hit in fencing or a successful criticism or an effective point in argument.


why would i feel better that this country can't comprehend English well enough to understand what is happening around them?


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

oldman said:


> touché...
> 
> i'll add the definition for you, so you can follow along
> 
> ...


 
Maybe the voices in your head are confusing you as you type.


----------



## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Maybe the voices in your head are confusing you as you type.


maybe...


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

oldman said:


> even your brother lawnguy realizes that the contractor merely handles the money...the customer pays for it...so,if the union is such a good deal for everyone, why don't they just go after the work that allows them to charge the customer enough money to employ union labor?


Possibly because contractors starting out are not comfortable diving into the deep end right off the bat. Start small, work your way up. In addition, not too many GCs on large projects are willing to hire an upstart.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

oldman said:


> seems to me, they have been going after it for quite awhile...
> 
> http://www.ibew.org/articles/99journal/9903/9903GoingHome.pdf
> 
> ...


I wonder where you're setting the bar to define "worth it?" No 2 employees are of the exact same calibur.



> but one memory that sticks in my mind was being on site with a Con-Ed employee...this was when I was in college and interning for an environmental remediation firm...


Clean Harbors?



> we were cleaning a man hole, so the Con-Ed guys could go in and work...and what I will never forget is the one Con-Ed employee saying "They (Con-Ed) pay me from the neck down"
> 
> that just stuck in my head...take it for what it's worth...
> 
> but mostly, the unions still view the contractors as the enemy...that's gotta change...


I disagree. Unions know it's a 2-way street. I do know some of the organized contractors view the union as the enemy - and the overall corporate view that anything that stands in the way of a company having 100% complete control over everything is anti-business and must be destroyed.


----------



## wirehaired (Apr 4, 2008)

The real kicker is I wanted to tranfer into this local union, get a good name for myself, then start my business, as a union business in my new location. Unions can be a good thing.....its a shame that many locals are taken over by popular guys that enjoy their new found power a little too much. ps this aint old man either.


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

wirehaired said:


> The real kicker is I wanted to tranfer into this local union, get a good name for myself, then start my business, as a union business in my new location. Unions can be a good thing.....its a shame that many locals are taken over by popular guys that enjoy their new found power a little too much. ps this aint old man either.


What was the end result?


----------



## wirehaired (Apr 4, 2008)

Self employed independant contractor


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

wirehaired said:


> Self employed independant contractor


Where?


----------



## wirehaired (Apr 4, 2008)

a stones throw away from you. in nj.


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

wirehaired said:


> a stones throw away from you. in nj.


Were you trying to deal with 400?


----------



## wirehaired (Apr 4, 2008)

I dont really want to get into any specifics. tried to do the right thing, sent out feelers thru their local members, visited during the day & spoke to different people, then got to the e board and they had like 50 plus people jammed into the room acting all insolent and aggro. bad experience. Like I said I know what my rights are/were and they didnt live up to the IBEW international standards. My BA said there is nothing they can do, I am on my own for this type of thing. I always had a stellar rep in my home local, top of my class, BS from RU, and they treated me badly, what else can I say? If they would of acted like gentlemen things may have turned out different and I wouldnt be an open shop.


----------



## wirehaired (Apr 4, 2008)

I dont really want to get into any specifics. tried to do the right thing, sent out feelers thru their local members, visited during the day & spoke to different people, then got to the e board and they had like 50 plus people jammed into the room acting all insolent and aggro. bad experience. Like I said I know what my rights are/were and they didnt live up to the IBEW international standards. My BA said there is nothing they can do, I am on my own for this type of thing. I always had a stellar rep in my home local, top of my class, BS from RU, and they treated me badly, what else can I say? If they would of acted like gentlemen things may have turned out different and I wouldnt be an open shop.


----------



## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> I wonder where you're setting the bar to define "worth it?" No 2 employees are of the exact same calibur.


worth is defined by me as the following....the guy produces enough to generate enough money to cover his salary, benefits, OH and profit...if I pay him $70/hr and he only generates $10,000 worth of revenue in a months time, we have a problem...caveat this with the premise that the work is priced on standard industry times (whether NECA, actual company historical, some other way other than SWAG) and that hours are priced properly to account for labor rate...not talking about quoting $35/outlet for a commercial TI w/MC and expect to make money...



LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Clean Harbors?


yep




LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> I disagree. Unions know it's a 2-way street. I do know some of the organized contractors view the union as the enemy - and the overall corporate view that anything that stands in the way of a company having 100% complete control over everything is anti-business and must be destroyed.


i think the unions are getting better, the speech from Ed Hill that's made the rounds shows it...but I think it still hasn't reached everyone yet...


----------



## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

wirehaired said:


> I dont really want to get into any specifics. tried to do the right thing, sent out feelers thru their local members, visited during the day & spoke to different people, then got to the e board and they had like 50 plus people jammed into the room acting all insolent and aggro. bad experience. Like I said I know what my rights are/were and they didnt live up to the IBEW international standards. My BA said there is nothing they can do, I am on my own for this type of thing. I always had a stellar rep in my home local, top of my class, BS from RU, and they treated me badly, what else can I say? If they would of acted like gentlemen things may have turned out different and I wouldnt be an open shop.


this does give quite a bit of insight into my views though..


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

oldman said:


> worth is defined by me as the following....the guy produces enough to generate enough money to cover his salary, benefits, OH and profit...if I pay him $70/hr and he only generates $10,000 worth of revenue in a months time, we have a problem...caveat this with the premise that the work is priced on standard industry times (whether NECA, actual company historical, some other way other than SWAG) and that hours are priced properly to account for labor rate...not talking about quoting $35/outlet for a commercial TI w/MC and expect to make money...


Then the guy gets a layoff. Honestly, 9 out of 10 times I see union members not being productive are not due to circumstances within their control. 



> i think the unions are getting better, the speech from Ed Hill that's made the rounds shows it...but I think it still hasn't reached everyone yet...


It's reaching plenty. You mentioned the MyLocal3 website, and read the cries of hundreds of members who were so used to playing games, they believed the goal was to be as unproductive as possible. Mostly 3rd generation members who thought political pull outweighed production. 

Some people have to learn the hard way.


----------



## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

I will state for the record...and heck save this post if you want...i am not anti-union in theory...i think it's a wonderful system...employees get security, employers have a pool of qualified labor to pull from...it could be, and should be, a win-win...

but, the reality is that people and human nature ruin it...get on the bad side of a BA (as a contractor or as an employee) and see what happens...contractors get the dregs of the halls, employees get the worst jobs - when they work....

there is no argument from me, or from anyone else here, that the unions (and specifically the IBEW) can and does provide a good package for the employee...

what's frustrating is the seeming inability of some guys to admit that there are ways outside of the union for an employee to acquire a similar package...or the inability to admit that there are some bad apples in the union that ruin it for others....

if we could have a little more intellectual honesty regarding the subject, less guys would dig their heels in and antagonize the other side..but that wouldn't be nearly as fun...

(Translation for MechanicalDVR....Union good for some, union not good for others)


----------



## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

oldman said:


> I will state for the record...and heck save this post if you want...i am not anti-union in theory...i think it's a wonderful system...employees get security, employers have a pool of qualified labor to pull from...it could be, and should be, a win-win...
> 
> but, the reality is that people and human nature ruin it...get on the bad side of a BA (as a contractor or as an employee) and see what happens...contractors get the dregs of the halls, employees get the worst jobs - when they work....
> 
> ...


 
FYI, mech is a pretty intelligent guy


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

oldman said:


> I will state for the record...and heck save this post if you want...i am not anti-union in theory...i think it's a wonderful system...employees get security, employers have a pool of qualified labor to pull from...it could be, and should be, a win-win...
> 
> but, the reality is that people and human nature ruin it...get on the bad side of a BA (as a contractor or as an employee) and see what happens...contractors get the dregs of the halls, employees get the worst jobs - when they work....


And what happens to a nonunion employee when he's on the boss's bad side? 



> there is no argument from me, or from anyone else here, that the unions (and specifically the IBEW) can and does provide a good package for the employee...
> 
> what's frustrating is the seeming inability of some guys to admit that there are ways outside of the union for an employee to acquire a similar package...or the inability to admit that there are some bad apples in the union that ruin it for others....


There are ways for an employee of a nonunion contractor to aquire a similar wage scale and benefit package? Do you really believe thats possible? Because if there was and it was common, the IBEW wouldn't exist. Are you saying a nonunion contractor out there has a similar Wage & fringe package, AND isn't a shop full of "helpers" who will never achieve journeyman status, can move to another shop and lose nothing?

Everyone in the union knows there are bad apples, there are bad apples in every field of employment. You can't believe any shop has a population of 100% rockets. I wonder though if this is your expectation? 



> if we could have a little more intellectual honesty regarding the subject, less guys would dig their heels in and antagonize the other side..but that wouldn't be nearly as fun...
> 
> (Translation for MechanicalDVR....Union good for some, union not good for others)


----------



## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

wow...just completely unable to acknowledge that there is another side to the issue...good luck with that...carry on...


----------



## amptech (Sep 21, 2007)

unbelievable


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

In my opinion this particular thread was the WORST thing to happen to this site, the whole union open shop issue is a WASTE OF time no one is ever going to change an other person opinion on this subject, might as well try to convert Muslims to Judaism.

I THINK many of the open shop members have tried to see the other side but some (NOT ALL) of the union member continue to exhibit what drives the two sides apart, a narrow minded approach to this issue along with a certain arrogance.


I now know why some forums keep this issue out and for the reasons noted above this is my last post on the forum.

If Nathan could remove me from the members list I would appreciate it.


----------



## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Same goes for this thread. Have a rational discussion or take it someplace else.


----------

