# St Louis carpenters union has an electrical division



## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

I heard it here, in disbelief, so I looked it up. Its for real, and it looks like its been going on a while.

The money on the check is a little bit more than the Ibew local 1, and the health and welfare is the same, but they didn't add all the overhead the Ibew local packs on.

It is also 'solicit-own-job,' and there is an out-of-work pool, but no demand to hire from it.

I am effin stoked for the electricians in that local, I wish they'd do that here, I hold an awful disgust for the afl-cio, but its not likely as this is a real top-notch Ibew local and the carpenters here have their share of problems.


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## Chris21 (Nov 25, 2009)

miller_elex said:


> I heard it here, in disbelief, so I looked it up. Its for real, and it looks like its been going on a while.
> 
> The money on the check is a little bit more than the Ibew local 1, and the health and welfare is the same, but they didn't add all the overhead the Ibew local packs on.
> 
> ...



Apparently the UBC Local 57 isn't compliant with federal regulations regarding apprenticeships.

http://www.local57facts.com/fact-book-downloads-/cat_view/41-apprenticeship.html


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Chris21 said:


> Apparently the UBC Local 57 isn't compliant with federal regulations regarding apprenticeships.


I found that website to be quite skewed, if not spreading lies.


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## Chris21 (Nov 25, 2009)

miller_elex said:


> I found that website to be quite skewed, if not spreading lies.





Even the letters from the Dept. of Labor that talked of the apprenticeship? Which was what I had said.


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## s.kelly (Mar 20, 2009)

I heard about this starting some months ago, but it seems to have blown up again.

What I have not heard, is if the carpenters organized nonunion shops, brought in small start up shops, or took IBEW signatory contractors from the IBEW.


Also wondering how many members they have in the electrical division.


Got a friend who is the UBC organizer here in town, we were talking about it the other day, but neither of us knew the whole story.

St. Louis is local one unless I remember wrong. That has got to make this extra hard to take in St. Louis and for the International office.


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

miller_elex said:


> I found that website to be quite skewed, if not spreading lies.


 
Sounds like every union website to me.... :laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## Chris21 (Nov 25, 2009)

s.kelly said:


> I heard about this starting some months ago, but it seems to have blown up again.
> 
> What I have not heard, is if the carpenters organized nonunion shops, brought in small start up shops, or took IBEW signatory contractors from the IBEW.
> 
> ...



From my understand and from what the Carpenters union website in St. Louis. They organized non-union electrical contractors. Which is actually a good way to compete with the IBEW. But is it a good idea... a good idea for the carpenters union as a whole? I don't know. The carpenters union has dropped out of the AFL a short while back and became part of Change to Win. Last summer they disaffiliated themselves with the Change to Win organization. They are lone wolves right now. 

The Dept. of Labor and the NLRB pretty much told them their apprenticeship training was not on par with a "normal" apprenticeship. They even went as far as telling them to speak to ABC about it. Which is actually pretty funny. Not because ABC is non-union but because the carpenters UNION should know how to go about starting up a UNION apprenticeship properly. 

In the end if it works out for them the IBEW in St Louis will have to do what they need to do to compete and maybe even lower their wages and package to the carpen-tricians wages and package.

Of course there seems to be more to this story. If you read the carpenters website in St Louis they mention they were angry with the IBEW in St Louis. So... I wonder who got their feelings hurt?


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Chris21 said:


> The Dept. of Labor and the NLRB pretty much told them their apprenticeship training was not on par with a "normal" apprenticeship.


And you think the Ibew lobbyists had nothing to do with this??


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## Chris21 (Nov 25, 2009)

miller_elex said:


> And you think the Ibew lobbyists had nothing to do with this??



Then why isn't the same happening to every electrician apprenticeship out there that isn't IBEW? I think ya got the case of the paranoia. 

But yeah ok. :whistling2:


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

The money on the check is a little bit more than the Ibew local 1, and the health and welfare is the same, but they didn't add all the overhead the Ibew local packs on.

It is also 'solicit-own-job,' and there is an out-of-work pool, but no demand to hire from it.

I am effin stoked for the electricians in that local, I wish they'd do that here, I hold an awful disgust for the afl-cio, but its not likely as this is a real top-notch Ibew local and the carpenters here have their share of problems.[/quote]
Wow, this is what your post brings me to miller_elex, You must be in the dark about the structure of the IBEW. First I heard that about 6 years ago the carpenters and labors broke away from the building and trades, after a couple of years floundering in despair, they started their own apprenticeship program to be multi craft in an effort to take a portion of work from all the building and trades, yes they would also possibly cut into the nonunion sectors piece of the pie.Right now there are several lawsuits pending. Give your BM a call and ask him what his thoughts are on this issue, I will bet you money stoked is not in that conversation. Wow I say just for shiggles(shtts and giggles) go ask your bm then post us to let us know what his thoughts are on this issues please(I am so deprived for intertainment)


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

This is old news. The carpenters have been ragtagging this for a long time. Too bad the market will not support their shenanigans. If the work picture was good, they might have been able to pull this off.'
All of the big guns are pointed at this situation.
I dont believe the subject should be discussed at all for now.. 

Got it??


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

jrannis said:


> All of the big guns are pointed at this situation.


I am all for the carpenters. They've been back to the wall against the onslaught of illegals and they are still surviving, even absorbing some of the competition. In the early sixties all the the house framing in this area was done by union carpenters. The only non-union was some small commercial outfits. Things have changed, and to survive, the carpenters have adapted. Without them, the wage would be about $12 an hour. 

Competition is good, no organization should have a monopoly.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Brother Noah said:


> Give your BM a call and ask him what his thoughts are on this issue,


Noah I love to stir the pot. Do you think he will suddenly gasp? How do you think he'll respond? Should I update my resume? 

Truthfully, the BMFS is a real professional, an officer of the local if there ever was, and I won't waste his time with the trivial.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Brother Noah said:


> . Wow I say just for shiggles(shtts and giggles) go ask your bm then post us to let us know what his thoughts are on this issues please(I am so deprived for intertainment)



Yeah that opinion would be about as unbiased as yours.


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## voltz (Jun 2, 2010)

should the IBEW start opening carpenter divisions


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

voltz said:


> should the IBEW start opening carpenter divisions


Why not? if you can offer a better package. I do not see the issue, are you for organizing and making a better life for an electrician or are you really only concerned about the IBEW's ass?


Because if the IBEW is the only concern, not the betterment of the "WORKING CLASS", then boy there are a bunch of hypocrites in the IBEW.


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## Savage16 (Jun 20, 2010)

local 57, is not even a legit union, they are picketing sites that hire IBEW as well terry nelson the jackass in charge sends his local 57 workers across other union picket lines, and when the other trades or the IBEW complain or hassle him he gets in their face and says he will take their work to if they dont shut up, their apprenticeship program recently got shut down bc the electrician branch of it was only 2 yrs, Local 57 also just had to pay 100,000 in fines and dues to IBEW 1 for contract breaches, dues, and fines for other reasons, the pay scale and benefits in local 57 are far shy of those in the IBEW 
IBEW Local 1-33 an hour +great benefits
Local 57-22 an hour+ benefits are a jokeand a pension plan funded through china(sounds promising) ...not
Terry nelson is strongarming everyone in st louis and its not a pretty sight to see, trust me if your union or even non-union in another city the last thing you want is to have to deal with an a**hole like terry nelson


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## Savage16 (Jun 20, 2010)

Oh also the shops he is organizing are not union, and ANY discussion of IBEW Local 1 or how great they are has led to employees being fired by local 57, as well local 57 is violating 1st amendment rights by firing individuals in this so called carpenters union for wearing the 57 with a / through it sticker on their hardhats bc they do not support what local 57 is doing, doesnt sound like a union to me at all, its only a matter of time before local 57 is shut down completely


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## Chris21 (Nov 25, 2009)

Savage16 said:


> Oh also the shops he is organizing are not union, and ANY discussion of IBEW Local 1 or how great they are has led to employees being fired by local 57, as well local 57 is violating 1st amendment rights by firing individuals in this so called carpenters union for wearing the 57 with a / through it sticker on their hardhats bc they do not support what local 57 is doing, doesnt sound like a union to me at all, its only a matter of time before local 57 is shut down completely



I think you should slow down a bit and read what you're saying. I understand you're upset about the current situation but to you may start saying things that make no sense. 

Of course the shops he is organizing isn't union. That's why he is organizing them. 

Though it is true that carpenters were wearing 57 stickers with a slash over it and they were being reprimanded. I honestly don't know if they were fired. But I don't think that would fly...


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## Savage16 (Jun 20, 2010)

No it does make sense, like the shops he supposedly organized never entered into a union contract or anything else union, second there were local 57 workers fired or laid off indefinately for opposing what local 57 is doing, or having discussion with IBEW local 1, if your not in st louis its hard to see how badly local 57 is messing stuff up and laws they are breaking


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Savage16 said:


> if your not in st louis its hard to see how badly local 57 is messing stuff up and laws they are breaking


All this coming from a pre-apprentice. Let me guess, you get your first hand jobsite knowledge because you currently hang gyp board?

Clarify the 22 an hour, is this apprentices, helpers, mechanics, or what?


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## Savage16 (Jun 20, 2010)

ok miller the situation is a lot different when your actually around it, i come from union family i hear about everything if i dont see or experience it first, so unless your working in st louis right now and you are perfectly happy with the situation involving local 57 and what they are trying to do, your opinions prolly shouldnt be attempts to insult or prove me wrong on something, california...yeah i highly doubt u even know anything at all on the situation here


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Savage16 said:


> ok miller the situation is a lot different when your actually around it, i come from union family i hear about everything if i dont see or experience it first, so unless your working in st louis right now and you are perfectly happy with the situation involving local 57 and what they are trying to do, your opinions prolly shouldnt be attempts to insult or prove me wrong on something, california...yeah i highly doubt u even know anything at all on the situation here


 
So try and post something that is clear concise and to the point that makes sense.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Savage16 said:


> ok miller the situation is a lot different when your actually around it, i come from union family i hear about everything if i dont see or experience it first, so unless your working in st louis right now and you are perfectly happy with the situation involving local 57 and what they are trying to do, your opinions prolly shouldnt be attempts to insult or prove me wrong on something, california...yeah i highly doubt u even know anything at all on the situation here



I don't like what the carpenters are doing at all in St. Louis. But if your gonna make a post in a *public forum* expect answers and opinions from everyone and anyone.(like it or not)



> i come from union family i hear about everything if i dont see or experience it first,


 I really hope that your not one of these guy's who thinks THEY KNOW EVERYTHING about the union, labor, and the trade just because your daddy's an electrician too.


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## Savage16 (Jun 20, 2010)

Ok opinions, opinion #1 local 57 is the last thing anyone needs in their town union or non, opinion #2 its highly unlikely you can begin to grasp the situation from california, if you have some idea in your head local 57 is good go ahead and give terry nelson a jingle and ask if he can steal your work to im sure he will be happy to [email protected]#k you over just as bad if not worse, then you guys can come on here and talk about it and I can act like your oblivious to the whole thing and challenge the work you have done, with a certificat, a degree, and now apprenticeship i know nothing but how to hang gypsum...yep sounds good

Union family, father, 3 uncles all IBEW, Grandpa IBEW retired, Uncle SMW, 
me certificate of mastery building repair, degree in residential/commercial wiring, IBEW apprenticeship, and a strong knowledge of how the union is currently doing. sure bring the opinions but make sure they are remotely accurate, miller started a thread about local 57 and i commented with accurate opinions and facts


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## Savage16 (Jun 20, 2010)

as well brian john if the points dont seem clear and concise, its probably bc the mess with local 57 doesnt make much sense either, Im simply stating a couple FACTS on what is going on sorry if you cant seem to grasp what im saying


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Savage16 said:


> miller started a thread about local 57 and i commented with accurate opinions and facts


Have you been working on jobsites around town or not?

Are Local 57 journeyman electricians getting carpenter journeyman wages or not? If they are getting the carpenter package, it looks a CH better than Local 1's.

How are they stealing work? By paying their people less? That doesn't make sense with the package on par with the carpenters. Their burden is less, because they aren't paying the frivolous crap the hall packs on top of every man-hour.

Let me guess, if a signatory GC gets the job, then he's mandated to use a Local 57 signatory as an electrical sub. That's when I'd get awfully worried, but seriously doubt that is the case.

I want facts, not opinions, to determine if and how the electricians are getting screwed over. I am all about electricians doing better as a whole, the IBEW is sometimes a part of that, and sometimes against it.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

How does he steal work?


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## Savage16 (Jun 20, 2010)

no local 57's lil electrician division is not up to par with anyone, their pay is over 10 an hour less than the other stl carpenters, terry is driving down wages all over with this, he steals work when he sends his workers across pickets, pretty much stated all this earlier but naturally you guys are older than me so that means you know so much more about this whole thing from your cities that are a thousand miles away because im just some young fool who knows nothing Im sure...yep thats probably the thought process here just a couple jackasses looking for an argument bc you have nothing better to do with your time


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## GatewaySparky (Jul 23, 2010)

Well the IBEW said no to my apprenticeship application. I love what I do, I'm good at what I do, I'd like to be a part of something bigger, and they said NO. It's like an exclusive work club that I can't get in.

Maybe 57 would like me.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Savage16 said:


> no local 57's lil electrician division is not up to par with anyone, their pay is over 10 an hour less than the other stl carpenters, terry is driving down wages all over with this, he steals work when he sends his workers across pickets, pretty much stated all this earlier but naturally you guys are older than me so that means you know so much more about this whole thing from your cities that are a thousand miles away because im just some young fool who knows nothing Im sure...yep thats probably the thought process here just a couple jackasses looking for an argument bc you have nothing better to do with your time


Not looking for an argument, just looking into some substance behind your post, I have yet to see anything wrong with what they are doing, except to upset you.

You have yet to explain how they are stealing jobs.

So thanks for the compliment, quite a way to back an argument with no backbone.


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## Skipp (May 23, 2010)

miller_elex said:


> All this coming from a pre-apprentice. Let me guess, you get your first hand jobsite knowledge because you currently hang gyp board?
> 
> Clarify the 22 an hour, is this apprentices, helpers, mechanics, or what?


 I was wondering when someone was going to pick up on that. This guy is on the union apprenticeship waiting list. But has all the answers because daddy was a union electrician.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Savage16 said:


> he steals work when he sends his workers across pickets,


So is this an informational picket or what?

Who was on strike? Was it the Local 1 informational picket against the UBC electricians? 

Unless it is a strike, it doesn't mean sh1t. All halls hire bums to carry signs on informational pickets.

Where's Noah to weigh in on this?


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

brian john said:


> quite a way to back an argument with no backbone.


Just google "Why Local 57 exists" its got a speel from the Terry Nelson that savage16 refers to as a 'd1ckhead.'

Refute the substance in that article, I need to know why it feels right to be wrong.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

miller_elex said:


> Just google "Why Local 57 exists" its got a speel from the Terry Nelson that savage16 refers to as a 'd1ckhead.'
> 
> Refute the substance in that article, I need to know why it feels right to be wrong.


3 lines in and I fell asleep, BOREFEST. I'd like the ST Louie guy to respond why he thinks they steal.


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

miller_elex said:


> So is this an informational picket or what?
> 
> Who was on strike? Was it the Local 1 informational picket against the UBC electricians?
> 
> ...


 I have been reading the post with disdain, unhappy with several post by some. I have worked in LU#1 as well as locals in 45 out 50 states. From what I know about carpenters creating their all new multi craft union is that it will cause animosity amongst the rank and file as well as devalue the worth of journeymen of all crafts. I agree with you miler that the kid erred by trying to impose stature via way of his lineage although he does show some spunk(hopefully not misled) I also disagree with your earlier post in the way of thinking that this is OUR solution to our problems (I think the kid nailed this one) It is no secrete that the IBEW is weak at this post and jobs are scarce( I have told all that will listen "now is the time to apply") I believe we will survive and prosper, as it will be a long and hard journey. Miller I do not remember if you ever posted what local you are out of but by your post it appears that Marvin is your BM and that might explain your distrust of the corporate overhead that you refer to. I have stated that the Carpenters and Labors went out on their on about 6 years ago and were to the point of going belly up when they started creating these new programs to half azz train their people to do the job that is normally done by journeymen(union and non alike) so in they actually will harm us all if they procede with these ways(I think they are destine to fail) One of the ways unions have continued through hard times is power of numbers and when they broke away they lost their majority. I could go on and on but like the kid said I am not in lu1 right now so what could we know? LOL


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## Savage16 (Jun 20, 2010)

meh done trying to converse on this subject, just bc im young surely im uneducated and inexperienced and definately have no idea what im talking about, typical of the older know it all a$$holes i deal with on a daily basis....basic philosophy, unless your at least 25 nobody will take you seriously and everyone older knows more, but its impossible to judge the effects a group like local 57 can have unless its happening in your city, no matter what trade your in, in st louis, your stuck dealing with this moron terry nelson but hey what do i know im just some 21 yr old "kid" whos daddy was an electrician....naive bastards :no:


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Savage16 said:


> meh done trying to converse on this subject, just bc im young surely im uneducated and inexperienced and definately have no idea what im talking about, typical of the older know it all a$$holes i deal with on a daily basis....basic philosophy, unless your at least 25 nobody will take you seriously and everyone older knows more, but its impossible to judge the effects a group like local 57 can have unless its happening in your city, no matter what trade your in, in st louis, your stuck dealing with this moron terry nelson but hey what do i know im just some 21 yr old "kid" whos daddy was an electrician....naive bastards :no:



:laughing:

I would love to find you in 15 years and show you what you wrote above.

Without a doubt you would read it and realize how much you did not know.:laughing:


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

Savage16 said:


> meh done trying to converse on this subject, just bc im young surely im uneducated and inexperienced and definately have no idea what im talking about, typical of the older know it all a$$holes i deal with on a daily basis....basic philosophy, unless your at least 25 nobody will take you seriously and everyone older knows more, but its impossible to judge the effects a group like local 57 can have unless its happening in your city, no matter what trade your in, in st louis, your stuck dealing with this moron terry nelson but hey what do i know im just some 21 yr old "kid" whos daddy was an electrician....naive bastards :no:


 Wow, your zeal for the unions I think is awesome and you have presented some intellect(besides the abuse of our proper English)(yes we all have erred on this matter) Just as you post of others not knowing how it is where you are the same could be said about your rants towards some on this board. Right now in Southern California there are talks between the building and trades and the Carpenters(this involves lawyers) and it is not only the electricians. Most of what I know in this area the school that the carpenters are offering is substandard and violates state laws pertaining to this issue.This is a rush by the carpenters to gain some foothole in the market share before they go under. Now as far as your lashing out at others for them pointing to the facts(you are green, this is shown by your post) Cool your jets and allow your personal ethics to be exposed over time, not a given because of your bloodline and your point might be taken serious.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Brother Noah said:


> Cool your jets and allow your personal ethics to be exposed over time, not a given because of your bloodline and your point might be taken serious.


He said his relations were 'IBEW.' For all we know, they could be meter readers or climbing poles for the telephone company. Not that I give a sh1t, I have found alot of super-star electricians whose folks are meth-addicts or convicts. Even had a former stripper for an apprentice, I bet she'd smoke you installing s16.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

GatewaySparky said:


> I'd like to be a part of something bigger, and they said NO.


I am so glad not to live in a local like that! Give a man a ladder to climb or he'll make his own way and climb harder in spite.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

O.K. I'm gonna rustle a few feathers.........

I do not condone the under handed moves by the carpenters. I'm only assuming what there motives are in St.Louis based off my experience with there unions here in my area. It's typical carpenter non sense. They have a feeling that all work should be done under there seal. Here in Philadelphia they have "stolen" the work of Millwrights, Sheet Metal Workers, Glaziers, Painters and Tapers. At one time they wanted to claim all electrical & Plumbing found in walls:laughing:

But all this is besides the point. I'm gonna play devils advocate and try to see things from the so called local-57 perspective.

I've never worked in St. Louis or even visited _*BUT* _there was a G.C. here in my town that we had done a couple of retail stores for a couple of years ago that had just finished a long job with Local 1. 

He was blown away by the pace at which we worked and our ability to cooperate. After getting friendly with this guy over a few weeks time I asked "Why are you so impressed? We really didn't do anything special."

He told me a story,

While in St.Louis he had a local 1 guy push him to the ground while trying to help carry a delivery in, when he stood up for himself another member threatened him with more physical violence, he found the steward passed out drunk in an electrical closet and when he went to the Business Agent he was told "keep your mouth shut".

Then he went over the BA's head and called the hall and asked for the Business Manager. Well that's when the local 1 guy's slowed there pace to a grinding halt.

He told me the job was about 6 months long and he said the whole time there he was treated like a second class citizen from the moment he arrived.

Now this is just a story and very well could have been embellished or even a flat out lie. But I didn't think this guy had any reason to lie, plus I found him credible based off of my working relationship with him. 

So I pose a question, do you think this behavior makes the IBEW and unions look "strong"? Is working hard frowned upon? If you do a good days work are you called a "shopy puke"? If lunch break isn't an hour and a half are you being told that your "breaking down conditions"? Is this what is taught as professional, there's reasons why the market share is dwindling.

It's not the 1950's and this type of sh*t is the reasons why unions look bad and are floundering. So perhaps the claims of the carpenters are correct. Maybe it's time for local 1 to get it's ass out of the dark ages. Maybe this is the reality check that local 1 needed.

You know what the definition of insanity is????

Doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting different results. 


It's time for a wake up call. Hopefully this is it.


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## Savage16 (Jun 20, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> :laughing:
> 
> I would love to find you in 15 years and show you what you wrote above.
> 
> Without a doubt you would read it and realize how much you did not know.:laughing:


 

Well bob I would probably be just as pissed and have the same comments as I do now, I know the difference between right and wrong, know the meaning of a hard days work, know how union politics operate, quite knowledgable of the trade I have chosen as my career. This truely is a situation you are not able to grasp, maybe you have a similar thing happening where you are, maybe you do not, but what I do know is local 57 is a serious problem in st. louis and you wouldnt understand unless you worked the building trades of st. louis, the same goes for miller and whoever else "thinks" they know how green I am or how my family is, not burnouts by far, all of you call me out bc my age and lack of work experience at the same time you have no idea whats going on bc your distance from the issue, what do you prove by calling me out on anything besides entertaining yourself, local 57 is not an issue to you and you dont know how its affecting st louis as much as you would like to think you do just bc you have been in the field since the dinosaurs roamed, your bored old lonely men who have nothing better to do with life


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## Savage16 (Jun 20, 2010)

Quote Terry Nelson so called leader of Local 57-All work below the dirt is for the miners, all work above the dirt is for the carpenters...being this is a thread on local 57 lets keep to local 57 related statements

JW wage
IBEW local 1, 33 an hour + amazing benefits including awesome retirement 
Local 57 22 an hour + questionable benefits, pension funded by china

-Local 57 sends workers across picket lines to do work no matter what the trade(scabs or STEALING work)

-Local 57 drives down wages for everyone union and non, idk bout you guys but thats not my idea of a good change 

-Local 57 underbids everyone union or non just to keep people at work and pay less to employees(essentially cutting everyone else's throat and STEALING work for which your not qualified for)while at the same time hurting own members

-Local 57 questionable apprenticeship program(electrical program recently closed)

-IBEW 1 Expensive yes...quality gauranteed
numerous complaints on local 57 no im not gonna bother listing them so do not bother with the well how about some examples nonsense

-Local 57 shows hostility to other trades with threats and raiding, quote Terry Nelson-If your not careful I WILL take your work to..directed at all st louis building trades, raiding involves vandalism of IBEW vehicles, buildings ect, as well as tool theft from IBEW sites

-Local 57 does work way out of jurisdiction not only hurting st louis but other cities as well, two walmarts near chicago recently given to IBEW up that way underbid by local 57 and lost work to local 57 which is a stl local, union or not this is bad for everyone 

-Local 57 pays 100000 in fines involving dues, violence, vandalism, contract breaches ect..some of these involve felonies

-Local 57 fires/lays off employees for sporting the 57/ stickers on hard hats, or speaking with IBEW organizers-violation of 1st amendment rights

idk how long local 57 can stick around but hopefully they get shut down before they cause much more damage to the regions workforce and economy


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

Vic from what you have posted it is but a 3rd party experience that you have not personally witnessed(so we do not know if it is true or not) but I did not have any of the experiences you posted.What I did witness was foreman doing your work while you took your 15 minute break(or exactly 30 minute lunch) workers that believed in 8 for 8 (now this does not mean that all jobs are like this in lu#1) Now savage 16 you post your rants but you really must start proof reading before you hit send.Your enthusiasm is to be commended but by the way you post we can tell you will be feeling battle pains for years to come because you do not know when to listen.If you contend that what happens in your little acre of the world would not effect us or we would have no concern, do you even realize that if we are IBEW that whatever effects one will effect all.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Never mind.


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## Savage16 (Jun 20, 2010)

Brother Noah said:


> Vic from what you have posted it is but a 3rd party experience that you have not personally witnessed(so we do not know if it is true or not) but I did not have any of the experiences you posted.What I did witness was foreman doing your work while you took your 15 minute break(or exactly 30 minute lunch) workers that believed in 8 for 8 (now this does not mean that all jobs are like this in lu#1) Now savage 16 you post your rants but you really must start proof reading before you hit send.Your enthusiasm is to be commended but by the way you post we can tell you will be feeling battle pains for years to come because you do not know when to listen.If you contend that what happens in your little acre of the world would not effect us or we would have no concern, do you even realize that if we are IBEW that whatever effects one will effect all.


proofread? its a public forum sorry for the lack of proper grammer noah lol, but further more I do not intend for this to be a rant, this is a thread on local 57 i was discussing local 57, facts and stuff that I know about and have experienced regarding local 57 by no means is this intended to be a rant


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## WildFire (Jul 24, 2010)

New here, joined because of this thread. I would really have to agree with Savage on this and understand him/her getting worked up over this. Local 57 is leaving one hell of a mess for st louis and if they are not stopped they will hurt everyone in time. Being in the IBEW for 19 years this month I can say the facts that Savage presents are all as much as I dislike it accurate.


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## pjmurph2002 (Sep 18, 2009)

Which local is being recognised as a basis for prevailing wage projects?


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

Savage16 said:


> proofread? its a public forum sorry for the lack of proper grammer noah lol, but further more I do not intend for this to be a rant, this is a thread on local 57 i was discussing local 57, facts and stuff that I know about and have experienced regarding local 57 by no means is this intended to be a rant


 I made an attempt to be polite to you.maybe you will find more data at F&Fnetwork.I do wish you luck in your direction in life and the path you choose.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Brother Noah said:


> *Vic from what you have posted it is but a 3rd party experience that you have not personally witnessed*(*so we do not know if it is true or not*) but I did not have any of the experiences you posted.What I did witness was foreman doing your work while you took your 15 minute break(or exactly 30 minute lunch) workers that believed in 8 for 8 (now this does not mean that all jobs are like this in lu#1) Now savage 16 you post your rants but you really must start proof reading before you hit send.Your enthusiasm is to be commended but by the way you post we can tell you will be feeling battle pains for years to come because you do not know when to listen.If you contend that what happens in your little acre of the world would not effect us or we would have no concern, do you even realize that if we are IBEW that whatever effects one will effect all.



I expressed this fact clearly in my statement.
I was merely playing devils advocate. Stirring the pot, so to speak.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

pjmurph2002 said:


> Which local is being recognised as a basis for prevailing wage projects?



This is actually a really good question. I will assume that it's local 1's scale.
Has the carptricians been awarded any Davis-Bacon projects yet?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Savage16 said:


> -Local 57 sends workers across picket lines to do work no matter what the trade(scabs or STEALING work)


How is that STEALING work? If the job is bid and his men are with the contractor that is awarded the job that is NOT stealing. But you need to buy a dictionary and UNDERSTAND the definition of stealing



> -Local 57 drives down wages for everyone union and non, idk bout you guys but thats not my idea of a good change


Or are they setting a wage level the market can bare at this time?



> -Local 57 underbids everyone union or non just to keep people at work and pay less to employees(essentially cutting everyone else's throat and STEALING work for which your not qualified for)while at the same time hurting own members.


Durn seems like a VERY SMART approach in a tough market.



> -Local 57 questionable apprenticeship program(electrical program recently closed)


Hopefully they will se the light not that their current program has been shut down.



> -IBEW 1 Expensive yes...quality gauranteed
> numerous complaints on local 57 no im not gonna bother listing them so do not bother with the well how about some examples nonsense


IBEW DOES NOT always equal quality and this has been debated for years here but any honest men on this forum will tell you that.



> -Local 57 shows hostility to other trades with threats and raiding, quote Terry Nelson-If your not careful I WILL take your work to..directed at all st louis building trades, raiding involves vandalism of IBEW vehicles, buildings ect, as well as tool theft from IBEW sites


Not a good way to operate but the IBEW has been guilty of this also.



> -Local 57 does work way out of jurisdiction not only hurting st louis but other cities as well, two walmarts near chicago recently given to IBEW up that way underbid by local 57 and lost work to local 57 which is a stl local, union or not this is bad for everyone


BUT he keeps his men employed? Seems like another smart tactic.




> -Local 57 pays 100000 in fines involving dues, violence, vandalism, contract breaches ect..some of these involve felonies


As stated this seems like a dumb approach.

-Local 57 fires/lays off employees for sporting the 57/ stickers on hard hats, or speaking with IBEW organizers-violation of 1st amendment rights



> how long local 57 can stick around but hopefully they get shut down before they cause much more damage to the regions workforce and economy



Damage. samage, life will go on and in a few years he will make it or not and he like most of us will just be a passing note, with little affect on the rotation of the Earth.

Now if you really want regular work and a decent life style let's take about the moron running this country.


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## Chris21 (Nov 25, 2009)

brian john said:


> Now if you really want regular work and a decent life style let's take about the moron running this country.



Oh now you've done it! Go ahead speedy close the thread. It's gone political! Gosh darnit! 

Think of the children Brian! Think of the children! Politics.... like organized religion...  is the root of all evil. :jester: :thumbup:


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## JLA (Jul 25, 2010)

brian john said:


> How is that STEALING work? If the job is bid and his men are with the contractor that is awarded the job that is NOT stealing. But you need to buy a dictionary and UNDERSTAND the definition of stealing


 If they have agreements in place, and then one side goes against that agreement, that could be considered stealing.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Chris21 said:


> Oh now you've done it! Go ahead speedy close the thread. It's gone political! Gosh darnit!
> 
> Think of the children Brian! Think of the children! Politics.... like organized religion...  is the root of all evil. :jester: :thumbup:


Chris, if you don't like this policy there are plenty of other forums.

The OT section of ContractorTalk is a wonderful place to hang out.


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## Chris21 (Nov 25, 2009)

Speedy Petey said:


> Chris, if you don't like this policy there are plenty of other forums.
> 
> The OT section of ContractorTalk is a wonderful place to hang out.



I was just doing my part as a "citizen" and member in good standing. I was merely pointing out that this thread has begun it's political transformation and should be dealt with swiftly. That's all.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Chris21 said:


> I was just doing my part as a "citizen" and member in good standing. I was merely pointing out that this thread has begun it's political transformation and should be dealt with swiftly. That's all.


You need to work on your sarcasm. I know a few people who can give you lessons.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Savage16 said:


> JW wage
> IBEW local 1, 33 an hour + amazing benefits including awesome retirement
> Local 57 22 an hour + questionable benefits, pension funded by china
> 
> -Local 57 sends workers across picket lines to do work no matter what the trade(scabs or STEALING work)


What's the source of your wage / hour claim? If you have it, scan it and post it. I am interested to see.

About the picket lines, is that an informational picket or a strike? There's a huge difference.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

miller_elex said:


> What's the source of your wage / hour claim? If you have it, scan it and post it. I am interested to see.
> 
> About the picket lines, is that an informational picket or a strike? There's a huge difference.


Davis Bacon Website has the PW listed as,

St Louis. 
ELEC0001-001 06/01/2009


Electricians.....................Rate $ 33.60 Fringe $22.24

Here's the link.
http://www.gpo.gov/davisbacon/MO.html



Didn't Local 1 just lower there rates too.?

This is actually a pretty low rate, comparatively speaking.




So if the local 57 electricians work on PW projects they get a raise????


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

If people would get rid of the notion that work "belongs" to any person or group of people, we'd be a lot further ahead. Anything else is contradictory to a capitalistic free market. The work only "belongs" to the party that can do it well, on time, and on budget... without special drama.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> If people would get rid of the notion that work "belongs" to any person or group of people, we'd be a lot further ahead. Anything else is contradictory to a capitalistic free market. The work only "belongs" to the party that can do it well, on time, and on budget... without special drama.



While this is a true statement. Among trade unions there are "agreements" as to which trade union "controls" which work. Hence the electricians union, or the carpenters union, or the plumbers union, and so on and so on..

I agree with you about no one "owning" the work, but the work being delegated to specific trade unions, amongst unions is an agreement between organizations.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

I was on a thing a few weeks ago where union brickies were laying tile. I'm not sure how that came about. Maybe the material the tile were made out of qualified them as "bricks" and not tile? The work looked nice, anyhow.


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## JLA (Jul 25, 2010)

slickvic277 said:


> While this is a true statement. Among trade unions there are "agreements" as to which trade union "controls" which work. Hence the electricians union, or the carpenters union, or the plumbers union, and so on and so on..
> 
> I agree with you about no one "owning" the work, but the work being delegated to specific trade unions, amongst unions is an agreement between organizations.


Which is why solar is causing so much controversy right now.

Even the glaziers want to get on board with it, they are claiming it's their work. Carpenters, millwrights, laborers, iron workers, masons, everyone.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

JLA said:


> Which is why solar is causing so much controversy right now.
> 
> Even the glaziers want to get on board with it, they are claiming it's their work. Carpenters, millwrights, laborers, iron workers, masons, everyone.


Here 'solar companies' tried to circumvent electrical licensing for PV installations. 

Luckily IMO the law here is on the electricians side.




> PART I. ADMINISTRATION OF THE GOVERNMENT
> 
> TITLE XX. PUBLIC SAFETY AND GOOD ORDER
> 
> ...


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> Here 'solar companies' tried to circumvent electrical licensing for PV installations.
> 
> Luckily IMO the law here is on the electricians side.



I like the way your state handles it's licensing laws and rules pertaining to the trade.
I wish Pennsy would get it's ass out of the dark ages.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

JLA said:


> If they have agreements in place, and then one side goes against that agreement, that could be considered stealing.


No that is a breach of contract and is punishable in the courts, if one is stealing that is also punishable through the courts.


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## JLA (Jul 25, 2010)

brian john said:


> No that is a beech of contract and is punishable in the courts, if one is stealing that is also punishable through the courts.


I think we are nitpicking here.

If I do work under a contract and they don't pay me, I don't think it's unreasonable to say that they stole from me. 

In the end, it really doesn't matter much.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

slickvic277 said:


> Among trade unions there are "agreements" as to which trade union "controls" which work.


The carpenters aren't affiliated with afl-cio, but I'm not sure if they have an agreement related to building trades or not.

The only reason I am pro-carpenter is the hands solicit their own jobs, end of story. If they happen to come around with a similar package and the major difference is how the hands go to work, well, its going to be a tough sell to stay in the Ibew. 

My thinking leads me to believe that there should be multiple agreements, in relation to the size of the contractor and the work he performs. There should be give in one area and take in another, depending on the work. What is advantageous to a very large contractor is not necessarily so to a smaller specialized contractor.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Sometimes I think the biggest thing holding back the IBEW is the IBEW itself.
Definitely time for a culture change.

Another thought is, if we relieved some of the assessments then the rates could be lower with out effecting the take home on the check. 

My one beef with my local is the god damn assessments, there just to damn high.


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## JLA (Jul 25, 2010)

slickvic277 said:


> Sometimes I think the biggest thing holding back the IBEW is the IBEW itself.
> Definitely time for a culture change.
> 
> Another thought is, if we relieved some of the assessments then the rates could be lower with out effecting the take home on the check.
> ...


Really? Have you ever looked into them, and also compared it to what it takes to run a large local?

If something needs to drop, it needs to be the hourly rate. 

For example:

$73/hr package equals

$47 in the check
$11.75 for health and wellfare
$7 pension
$5 annuity
$0.50 JATC
$1.50 NEBF

Now that's the hourly breakdown which all goes to me, even the money going to the JATC is essentially going to me since it is like repaying my student loans. 

The hall takes about $130 per quarter in dues (most of which they do not keep) and 3% of the envelope rate which is $1.41 per hour. All of which is tax deductible.

We're getting a lot of cash per hour, so I really can't complain about the $1.41 that's going to the hall.


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

slickvic277 said:


> I expressed this fact clearly in my statement.
> I was merely playing devils advocate. Stirring the pot, so to speak.


 LOL. I am scooping what you are pooping.I would say that this thread does not need much help in the stirring department though.Male fortitude is abundent while some knowledge lacking, mixed with the youth versus been there done that crowd. You know I think the kid has a viable complaint but he has not lived life enough to figure out how to explain to us old foggies his point and then gets mad at us(WHY?) All I know is this thread has been very entertaining.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Brother Noah said:


> LOL. I am scooping what you are pooping.I would say that this thread does not need much help in the stirring department though.Male fortitude is abundent while some knowledge lacking, mixed with the youth versus been there done that crowd. You know I think the kid has a viable complaint but he has not lived life enough to figure out how to explain to us old foggies his point and then gets mad at us(WHY?) All I know is this thread has been very entertaining.


Many because the excitement of youth is blinded by the realty of, this too is but a pimple on the ass of man, as either the IBEW will work it out or they won't and in the end WHAT TO HELL.

Work will go on if we can straighten this economy out and the lower scale group will slide into the Mississippi.


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## Apprentice RL (Jul 29, 2010)

*Pay Rate*

JLA, what local are you?

I know the Local in my city, Phila., has one of the highest paying rates. Just wondering which cities are higher than mine?

Thanks.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Apprentice RL said:


> JLA, what local are you?
> 
> I know the Local in my city, Phila., has one of the highest paying rates. Just wondering which cities are higher than mine?
> 
> Thanks.



We're high but not the highest. Several of the West Coast locals are Higher.
We're on par with the other locals in the Philly, Jersey, New York Area.


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

Apprentice RL said:


> JLA, what local are you?
> 
> I know the Local in my city, Phila., has one of the highest paying rates. Just wondering which cities are higher than mine?
> 
> Thanks.


 Local #6 I believe is the highest at $55.50hr on a 35 hour week and all OT is double, they also have an awesome package.Lu#302,595,617,3,103 are within a couple of dollars, lu 1245 and 47 are $47 and change plus $50 a day per diem and all OT double.As with most high scales the cost of living is extreme but I have found in lu3 just go across the river to New Jersey and when in the Gay Bay area a short drive over to lu180's area and you will find affordable living only 20-30 miles from the city


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Brother Noah said:


> Local #6 I believe is the highest at $55.50hr on a 35 hour week and all OT is double, they also have an awesome package.Lu#302,595,617,3,103 are within a couple of dollars, lu 1245 and 47 are $47 and change plus $50 a day per diem and all OT double.As with most high scales the cost of living is extreme but I have found in lu3 just go across the river to New Jersey and when in the Gay Bay area a short drive over to lu180's area and you will find affordable living only 20-30 miles from the city



Were $47 ph. Overtime after 8. Double time on Sundays and Holidays. Election day is also a holiday for us. Total package is around $72.

Cost of living is high but not as high as NJ or NY. The sh*tty part is the 4%+ city wage tax. A lot of members live outside the city and avoid the tax if there working outside the city as well. But they'll still pay 3.5% CWT when working in the city as a non resident.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

slickvic277 said:


> . But they'll still pay 3.5% CWT when working in the city as a non resident.



In the city famous for the origins of this country that rallied behind " No Taxation Without Representation" non-resisdents get hit with this.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

brian john said:


> In the city famous for the origins of this country that rallied behind " No Taxation Without Representation" non-resisdents get hit with this.


Yeah, the taxes in Philly are crap. The only saving grace is the Property taxes are dirt cheap.

If you live in the city you pay almost 4.5% wage tax no matter where you work.

If you live outside the city _*and*_ work _*in*_ the city it's around 3-3.5% wage tax.
The sales tax is 8% too.
And there's a business privilege tax if your a business owner here as well.

There's a lot of good things about this city. The government, taxes, and schools aren't one of them.


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## v277480 (Jul 11, 2010)

http://mccarron2010.com/home/


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

v277480 said:


> http://mccarron2010.com/home/


Seems like a likable guy to me.



> they do what union busting corporations do and bring in the lawyers to get the *NLRB* to do their dirty work.


HARDLY a business friendly group.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

If the work of the NLRB is considered "dirty work", then I guess anyone engaged in enforcing the law is doing "dirty work"?

Small matter. I'll keep on doing what I do. Doesn't effect me in the least.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

You should of seen the help get all riled up about the carpenters when the newspapers hit the mailbox! 

Oh, I had fun fanning the flames over the lunch table. That was about two weeks ago?


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## millerdrr (Jun 26, 2009)

slickvic277 said:


> Davis Bacon Website has the PW listed as,
> 
> St Louis.
> ELEC0001-001 06/01/2009
> ...


Damn. I'm moving. Here's me:

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=Davis-Bacon&docid=NC20100014


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

millerdrr said:


> Damn. I'm moving. Here's me:
> 
> http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=Davis-Bacon&docid=NC20100014


Your kidding right????? What's a house cost there, like $10,000.:blink:???

Here's mine,

ELEC0098-003 05/03/2010

DELAWARE COUNTY: That portion east of a line following State
Highway 320 from Montgomery County to Maple, then along the
Springfield Road to Saxer Ave, along Saxer Avenue to Powell
Road, along Powell Road to State Highway 420 and continuing in
a straight line to the Delaware River.

MONTGOMERY COUNTY: That portion southeast of a line following
Lower State Road from Bucks County southwest to the Bethlehem
Pike (U.S Highway 309), south on the Bethlehem Pike to the
Penllyn Pike, southwest on the Penllyn and Blue Bell Pikes to
the Wissahickon Creek, southeast on the Wissahickon Creek to
the Butler Pike to North Lane near Conshohocken Borough,
southwest on North Lane to Schuylkill River and continuing
southeast in a line to the Spring Mill Road and southwest on
the Spring Mill Road to Delaware County.

PHILADELPHIA COUNTY - in its entirety

 Rates, Fringes


ELECTRICIAN......................$ 46.85, 26.23


http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=Davis-Bacon&docid=PA20100005


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

brian john said:


> HARDLY a business friendly group.



Under the last administration they were very biased in favor of business.
In fact there's over 600 NLRB decisions being reversed or re-opened.

Under the current administration I'm sure they'll be biased in favor of labor.

I would much prefer if they were just *fair*.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

slickvic277 said:


> Under the last administration they were very biased in favor of business.
> In fact there's over 600 NLRB decisions being reversed or re-opened.
> 
> Under the current administration I'm sure they'll be biased in favor of labor.
> ...


 
It's politics THAT AIN'T HAPPENING.


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## millerdrr (Jun 26, 2009)

slickvic277 said:


> Your kidding right????? What's a house cost there, like $10,000.:blink:???


Yep. $85k will get you 2000 sq ft, 3 bed/2 bath ranch with an acre or two in a middle class neighborhood.

$180k will get you a 3000 sq ft transitional with a brick front.

$275k will get you a 4000 sq ft transitional all brick on a golf course.

Unfortunately, a decade of advanced electrical experience/training will get you...$15-18/hr to start. If you're lucky.

Of course, part of the problem lies here: http://www.journalpatriot.com/fullstory.asp?id=1768

A county of less than 70k people with one of the largest death rates from drug overdoses in the nation. A ton of those guys are working construction, due to lax licensing. Actually...non existent licensing. Only one qualifier is required. He can supervise an unlimited number of apprentices. There are no journeyman licenses, except for two or three cities.


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