# Exterior wall boxes



## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

Are air tight boxes required now on exterior walls ? I thought this was a recent code change... 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## electricguy (Mar 22, 2007)

In British Columbia this is a Building code requirement


----------



## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

WronGun said:


> Are air tight boxes required now on exterior walls ? I thought this was a recent code change...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I have heard that from some of the northen states but I dont have confirmation on that but southen states I doubt it. unless it is addmendend in their state or local codes. 

Of course it is standard pratice in Canada so it is routeine item they have to do it.


----------



## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

Problem is I can't find standard depth Air tight boxes , wondering if there is another acceptable method of doing this 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

We use a standard box with a plastic boot or NuTech plastic boxes that are flanged and gasketed. Sorry, unable to post images.


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

99cents said:


> We use a standard box with a plastic boot or NuTech plastic boxes that are flanged and gasketed. Sorry, unable to post images.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

MechanicalDVR said:


>


Like the middle one with a foam gasket.


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

99cents said:


> Like the middle one with a foam gasket.


All the ones I find are Canadian


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

All Home Depot at that


----------



## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

So I take it insulating expanding foam won't cut it ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

I bought a bunch of them and then our area said they were not enforcing it but my understanding was you only needed them where there were back to back outlets in the same stud cavity. For instance, if you install an outdoor outlet (sw, light or recep) in the same bay as an indoor outlet then you need them.


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Those boxes are 22.5 cu.in by T & B. Just searh FN-23


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

WronGun said:


> So I take it insulating expanding foam won't cut it ?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes that will work. 

Remember that this is building code, not electric. This is on the GC. It's in the energy code, any electrical box on exterior walls.

Arlington makes all kinds of boxes for this purpose if you want to install them instead of having the GC seal up normal boxes.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

We normally just use these with a standard box. The insulators do the sealing. If it's an old house with no vapour barrier, it's redundant.

http://new.abb.com/products/ABB7TBA126830R0005


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

99cents said:


> We normally just use these with a standard box. The insulators do the sealing. If it's an old house with no vapour barrier, it's redundant.
> 
> http://new.abb.com/products/ABB7TBA126830R0005




Why does that remind me of a condom?


----------



## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

This is covered in the 2015 IECC - International Energy Conservation Code.
Like any other code written it is not enforceable until formally adopted by the jurisdiction.

What the 2015 IECC says in Table R402.4.1.1 is:

Recessed lighting:
Air Barrier Criteria: Recessed light fixtures installed in the building thermal envelope shall be sealed to the drywall.
Insulation Installation Criteria: Recessed light fixtures in stalled in the building thermal envelope shall be air tight and IC rated


Electrical / Phone box on exterior walls:
Air Barrier Criteria: The air barrier shall be installed behind electrical or communications boxes or air-sealed boxes shall be installed.

What we are seeing where I work is the insulation contractor uses expanding foam behind the boxes on exterior walls and the EC is using gasketed boxes as well.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

manchestersparky said:


> This is covered in the 2015 IECC - International Energy Conservation Code.
> Like any other code written it is not enforceable until formally adopted by the jurisdiction.
> 
> What the 2015 IECC says in Table R402.4.1.1 is:
> ...


I'm not sure how you would seal it to the drywall. In Canada we seal it to the vapour barrier.

I think spray foam is a bad idea. If the drywallers Rotozip your wire, you have no slack to pull if the cable is stuck in spray foam. Also, when someone says, "Can you move this box over six inches", you're done. Actually, I just hate spray foam in general.


----------



## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

What do you use when you are adding an outdoor outlet? Do you have to completely tear the wall apart then have the wall repaired?


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Switched said:


> What do you use when you are adding an outdoor outlet? Do you have to completely tear the wall apart then have the wall repaired?


Nothing. You want the wall to breathe to the outside. Even if you see a wrap like Tyvek, it's designed to let moisture out but prevent rain from getting in. It's like Gore-tex for buildings.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Just to reiterate, this code is not enforceable by the electrical inspector. 

The Arlington boxes with the gasket that seals to the drywall are by far the easiest way to do this, but the responsibility is on the GC/builder/insulator so make sure you make money off of using the more expensive boxes that save the other people time and money.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> Just to reiterate, this code is not enforceable by the electrical inspector.
> 
> The Arlington boxes with the gasket that seals to the drywall are by far the easiest way to do this, but the responsibility is on the GC/builder/insulator so make sure you make money off of using the more expensive boxes that save the other people time and money.


Exactly. We might have some overlap here with inspectors but that's only in minor cases where we break the barrier for a box or two and it's not worth it to send out a building inspector.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Panels with a barrier. Airtight boxes. When do I hear, "Thank you, Canada" 

Actually, it's payback for giving us AFCI's...


----------



## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

99cents said:


> I'm not sure how you would seal it to the drywall. In Canada we seal it to the vapour barrier.
> 
> I think spray foam is a bad idea. If the drywallers Rotozip your wire, you have no slack to pull if the cable is stuck in spray foam. Also, when someone says, "Can you move this box over six inches", you're done. Actually, I just hate spray foam in general.


They only install the foam directly behind the box, not all around it. The fiberglass batt insulation goes around the box.



HackWork said:


> Just to reiterate, this code is not enforceable by the electrical inspector.


Not so fast there Hackwork. It would depend on the jurisdiction as to who inspects what. In my jurisdiction they did adopt the IECC so the electrical inspector is responsible to enforce the electrical parts of the IECC. So yes a disapproval can be issued by the electrical inspector for non gasketed boxes.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

manchestersparky said:


> They only install the foam directly behind the box, not all around it. The fiberglass batt insulation goes around the box.


 The entire box needs to be sealed, all holes, KO's etc. And it needs to come around the sides of the box up to the vapor barrier/drywall.



manchestersparky said:


> Not so fast there Hackwork. It would depend on the jurisdiction as to who inspects what. In my jurisdiction they did adopt the IECC so the electrical inspector is responsible to enforce the electrical parts of the IECC. So yes a disapproval can be issued by the electrical inspector for non gasketed boxes.


They adopted the IECC in my entire state, but that is not electrical code, it's part of the building code. Therefore it is enforced by the building inspector and not enforceable by an electrical inspector. This is what the state Attorney General determined.


----------



## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

HackWork said:


> The entire box needs to be sealed, all holes, KO's etc. And it needs to come around the sides of the box up to the vapor barrier/drywall.
> 
> 
> 
> They adopted the IECC in my entire state, but that is not electrical code, it's part of the building code. Therefore it is enforced by the building inspector and not enforceable by an electrical inspector. This is what the state Attorney General determined.


I agree with Manchester, depends upon the jurisdiction. In most of our municipalities we have a general inspector, not a dedicated electrical, and in the others the electrical inspectors can flag you for stuff not associated with electrical work. 

Here we have the Title 24 Energy codes, the electrical portions are enforceable by the inspector to the electrician. I don't work at all with GC's though, so I am the one responsible for all aspects of the installation.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Switched said:


> I agree with Manchester, depends upon the jurisdiction. In most of our municipalities we have a general inspector, not a dedicated electrical, and in the others the electrical inspectors can flag you for stuff not associated with electrical work.
> 
> Here we have the Title 24 Energy codes, the electrical portions are enforceable by the inspector to the electrician. I don't work at all with GC's though, so I am the one responsible for all aspects of the installation.


If you have a general inspector, then that's not an electrical inspector.

If you have electrical inspectors that are allowed to fail jobs for plumbing, fire, or building code violations, then that is why we all want California to fall off into the ocean :jester:


----------



## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

HackWork said:


> If you have a general inspector, then that's not an electrical inspector.
> 
> If you have electrical inspectors that are allowed to fail jobs for plumbing, fire, or building code violations, then that is why we all want California to fall off into the ocean :jester:


You only want the Coast to fall into the ocean.... That's where all the crazies are!

In the cities I know of that have dedicated electrical inspectors, they have the authority to not provide a final based upon unsafe conditions they become aware of. I have had a job not pass due to an improperly installed furnace. The inspector passed the electrical portion, but would not issue a passed permit, instead it was referred to the appropriate inspector.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Switched said:


> You only want the Coast to fall into the ocean.... That's where all the crazies are!
> 
> In the cities I know of that have dedicated electrical inspectors, they have the authority to not provide a final based upon unsafe conditions they become aware of. I have had a job not pass due to an improperly installed furnace. The inspector passed the electrical portion, but would not issue a passed permit, instead it was referred to the appropriate inspector.


You're being semantical. The electrical inspector didn't fail your job, he delayed the final while he got the other inspector in there. You didn't fix the furnace, someone else did.

The point I have been making is that it's not part of electrical code and the electrical inspector shouldn't fail your installation for it. It's part of the building code which should be addressed by the GC/builder/insulator.

When this code first came into effect many NJ electrical inspectors were failing electrical installations for not having the gasket boxes or being sprayfoamed. Soon after they all got their peepee's slapped when the state came down on them and put them in their place. They can't fail the electrical installation, but they can certainly inform the building inspector, which is something for the GC to deal with.

Here's my deal, I don't want to see an electrical contractor here fail an installation and then go back and change out all of the exterior wall boxes with expensive gasket boxes and lose money because he thought it was on him.


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I don't really care as long as whomever determines something like this is required and informs the other trades so we are prepared to deal with the cost. The word needs to get out. This isn't for just us but these kinds of problems affect every trade. I'm not too fond of spray foam, though I'm sure it works great for the intended purpose. Sucks to install a bunch of adjustable boxes for tile or other surface to have that ruined.


----------

