# Changing from union shop to non union shop with employees



## rigid pipe (Jun 9, 2012)

I am assuming that I


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## rigid pipe (Jun 9, 2012)

the company making the switch


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

IMO start a brand new company that is non union. it will eliminate a whole bunch of legal issues. consult an attorney to avoid any noncompete stuff that may be hidden in the agreement. I don't believe that the union can prevent you from owning non majority stock in a non union company (not sure), but the managing partner or majority stock holder may have to be someone who was not owner of the previous company. complicated stuff.


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## rigid pipe (Jun 9, 2012)

wildleg said:


> IMO start a brand new company that is non union. it will eliminate a whole bunch of legal issues. consult an attorney to avoid any noncompete stuff that may be hidden in the agreement. I don't believe that the union can prevent you from owning non majority stock in a non union company (not sure), but the managing partner or majority stock holder may have to be someone who was not owner of the previous company. complicated stuff.


Thanks


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## rigid pipe (Jun 9, 2012)

Thanks![/quote]

I meant contract as well.


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## sparky970 (Mar 19, 2008)

Why?


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## LARMGUY (Aug 22, 2010)

That was my first question, why are they changing?

Friction between them and the union?
Economy won't hire union because of wages, ie. can't compete?
Doesn't the union make it extremely hard to revert back to non-union and fight for a reason?

Apparently you are pro union so why aren't they?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Seems like maybe a double breasted shop with part union not bidding anything and the other open shop bidding and doing all work?

I would see how the union would be upset, losing a long time signatory member.

Will you retain any union members?

What will you do for benefits for your men when you go open shop.

Believe me I understand why you want to do this as there is little to no real benefit to an owner operating a union shop. But it does offer your men a decent package.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

brian john said:


> Seems like maybe a double breasted shop with part union not bidding anything and the other open shop bidding and doing all work?
> 
> I would see how the union would be upset, losing a long time signatory member.
> 
> ...


Yet you seem to make a decent living. If there's no benefit why have you been doing it so long?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Loose Neutral said:


> Yet you seem to make a decent living. If there's no benefit why have you been doing it so long?


I have explained before, when I went in business the companies we did work for were union and required union contractors (their men would not work with open shop employees). I have been at this 27 years and am not about to change now, plus it offers a very good living and benefit package for my men, I do believe in taking care of my men.

I have also stated contractors I work for that operate similar size open shops, live a bit higher on the hog than I do. And while it is nice to take care of your employees, it is even nice to fatten your wallet. 

I have stated over and over show me the benefit for the owners and the line about being able to get men is a bit over blown. There are more open shops than union shops, there are more non-union electricians than union electricians and all those shops get men.


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## rigid pipe (Jun 9, 2012)

LARMGUY said:


> That was my first question, why are they changing?
> 
> Friction between them and the union?
> Economy won't hire union because of wages, ie. can't compete?
> ...


Those would be some of the reasons.....

Customers now just really want the best price and really would prefer non union....less drama and union equals high prices (whether not that is actually true, IS true in the customers mind). At times it is wise NOT to tell the customer we are union.

Yes, benefits will probably be an issue but going back to the hall and being unemployed for long periods of time, having to travel, ect. are drawbacks that could be a tradeoff.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Most of our customers do not have a clue we are union, unless they are one of the few that are union themselves.


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## sparky970 (Mar 19, 2008)

brian john said:


> Most of our customers do not have a clue we are union, unless they are one of the few that are union themselves.


I was just awarded a job last week where we bid against another union shop. After he told me I got the job, he asked if we were union. I wasn't very aggressive on the bid so I guess the other contractor pretty high.


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## rigid pipe (Jun 9, 2012)

brian john said:


> Seems like maybe a double breasted shop with part union not bidding anything and the other open shop bidding and doing all work?
> 
> I would see how the union would be upset, losing a long time signatory member.
> 
> ...


You are double breasted shop in a "right to work" state? We are in NJ and is not possible here. It is either union or non union...


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

rigid pipe said:


> You are double breasted shop in a "right to work" state? We are in NJ and is not possible here. It is either union or non union...


I am 100% union.


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## rigid pipe (Jun 9, 2012)

brian john said:


> I am 100% union.


my apologies...not that you are union, but that I misunderstood


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

rigid pipe said:


> my apologies...not that you are union, but that I misunderstood


No problem. If you can go open shop I find it hard to believe you can't be double breasted?


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## rigid pipe (Jun 9, 2012)

brian john said:


> No problem. If you can go open shop I find it hard to believe you can't be double breasted?


What is the difference between the two?


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

brian john said:


> I have explained before, when I went in business the companies we did work for were union and required union contractors (their men would not work with open shop employees). I have been at this 27 years and am not about to change now, plus it offers a very good living and benefit package for my men, I do believe in taking care of my men.
> 
> I have also stated contractors I work for that operate similar size open shops, live a bit higher on the hog than I do. And while it is nice to take care of your employees, it is even nice to fatten your wallet.
> 
> *I have stated over and over show me the benefit for the owners and the line about being able to get men is a bit over blown.* There are more open shops than union shops, there are more non-union electricians than union electricians and all those shops get men.


......than go non union. I'm tired of you sitting there busting on the union, yet benefiting on the jobs you get solely because you are a union shop. Your amazing!

http://www.electriciantalk.com/f15/im-hiring-39485/


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

360max said:


> I'm tired of you sitting there busting on the union, yet benefiting on the jobs you get solely because you are a union shop. Your amazing!


Boo hoo, did Brian's mean words hurt your little feelings.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)




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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

rigid pipe said:


> I work for my families union shop and the company is thinking of going non union. (they have not decided) They will consult a good labor attorney however, If I go work for the non union shop, I am assuming I will not be able to ever return to the union in the future. A few questions...how soon after my family cancels their signatory contractor agreement, should I contact my local and what is the proper way to do this? (I have been in the union for so long, I do not have the original paperwork) Also, a few employees from different classifications may do the same...is there a timing issue here?


The company can do whatever they want. The impact will be on the electricians. If they choose to all of a sudden become non- union electricians, it will be somewhat life changing to be without health benefits, and a pension. I wouldn't expect anyone to stay. It will be pretty much like closing your doors and then re opening as a non-union shop.

I watched my dad stay with a shop that went non-union during the late 70s. The owner was getting ready to retire and was handing the shop over to his spoiled kid. He was the shop superintendent and went from working on massive projects to scratching around on small commercial jobs. He had to live like an animal on the lower wages so he could squirrel away retirement money. He had 25 or so years working union but when he left, his pension rate was cast in place based on 70s wages so he knew he was screwed. 
I worked with him every day for 2 years after I returned from the Marine Corps. I had a chance to get into the JATC and he told be to get the union and stay in. 
He was divorced from my mom soon after I got married and moved out.

I made arrangements to get him back in a few years before he retired so that we could work together again but he just couldn't for reasons I will never know. In good health and money in the bank, He ended it all with a 12 gauge in June of 1999, 13 months after he retired.

That was his experience but yours could be different.
Good luck!


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

360max said:


> ......than go non union. I'm tired of you sitting there busting on the union, yet benefiting on the jobs you get solely because you are a union shop. Your amazing!
> 
> http://www.electriciantalk.com/f15/im-hiring-39485/


I said there are no benefits left (maybe one or two) for us being union in reference to customer requirements. All the union shops we worked for are out of business replaced by open shops or they went non-union. And the union shops left would not care at this point.

There is too much hassle changing, plus I have excellent workers that are union and many have 15-27 years vested in the union, they would stay union. Would you let good workers go that have been with you 25 years. Union or open shop that would be a low life move.

I am not bashing the union and if you would wake up and listen to what I am saying you would work to improve what the union means to an owner.

I have sat in owners meetings and believe me my beliefs are kind towards the union compared to some of the rhetoric I here from other union shop owners. I like what the union offers it's members, I think they need to do more to promote their pluses and work to improve their pluses to owners.

Would you prefer this topic not be discussed and union members think all is sweet and rosy as we lose market share? Or would you prefer to try and improve the IBEW.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Lastly rather that complain about my post answer my question, IF YOU CAN.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

BBQ said:


> Boo hoo, did Brian's mean words hurt your little feelings.


...not a bit Bob, just think he is being a little hypocritical. Owners never make profits on union jobs, everyone knows that- right Brian....


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

360max said:


> ...not a bit Bob, just think he is being a little hypocritical. Owners never make profits on union jobs, everyone knows that- right Brian....


I do quite well and I have excellent men, my point is my open shop associates, do better financially than I do. And my point is the union needs to do more to promote their benefits to owners if they truly want to grow in lieu of shrinking.

My local is growing in membership and contractors, how many locals in the USA can say that. Our local works quite well with the membership, contractors and customers.


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## electricalwiz (Mar 12, 2011)

jrannis said:


> The company can do whatever they want. The impact will be on the electricians. If they choose to all of a sudden become non- union electricians, it will be somewhat life changing to be without health benefits, and a pension. I wouldn't expect anyone to stay. It will be pretty much like closing your doors and then re opening as a non-union shop.
> 
> I watched my dad stay with a shop that went non-union during the late 70s. The owner was getting ready to retire and was handing the shop over to his spoiled kid. He was the shop superintendent and went from working on massive projects to scratching around on small commercial jobs. He had to live like an animal on the lower wages so he could squirrel away retirement money. He had 25 or so years working union but when he left, his pension rate was cast in place based on 70s wages so he knew he was screwed.
> I worked with him every day for 2 years after I returned from the Marine Corps. I had a chance to get into the JATC and he told be to get the union and stay in.
> ...


 
John, will send you a pm


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

jrannis said:


> The company can do whatever they want. The impact will be on the electricians. If they choose to all of a sudden become non- union electricians, it will be somewhat life changing to be without health benefits, and a pension. I wouldn't expect anyone to stay. It will be pretty much like closing your doors and then re opening as a non-union shop.
> 
> I watched my dad stay with a shop that went non-union during the late 70s. The owner was getting ready to retire and was handing the shop over to his spoiled kid. He was the shop superintendent and went from working on massive projects to scratching around on small commercial jobs. He had to live like an animal on the lower wages so he could squirrel away retirement money. He had 25 or so years working union but when he left, his pension rate was cast in place based on 70s wages so he knew he was screwed.
> I worked with him every day for 2 years after I returned from the Marine Corps. I had a chance to get into the JATC and he told be to get the union and stay in.
> ...



I can't understand anyone leaving the local with so many years of time, unless there is no union work. When I was working for another company an old guy told me you have one major thing going for you now, your "A" ticket and union membership, do not do anything to screw that up. He later quit the local to work as a superintendent for a open shop, was not a wise decision IMO.

I don't understand leaving the union as a contractor, just for all the hassle of changing, programs and I would think you would be on the locals radar, with them targeting jobs you are bidding on and possibly targeting jobs you are working on. Much less having to find all new employees, even if you offered the exact same benefits to those union men, if you went belly up, they'd be struck on the street negotiating, for wages and benefits on their own.


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## rigid pipe (Jun 9, 2012)

Sorry...didn't mean to cause a debate...just was trying to get the scenerios for the company and fellow electricians with my question.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

when times are tough, there are companies that will start up nonunion sides to go where the work is. it's been going on for a long time, and it's nothing new. Some areas will just get too tough for companies to make it paying scale, or the local political scene would be too corrupt to survive in without selling their soul. This has been going around and will continue to go around. In the 70s and 80s a lot of sizable contractors in the DC area started nonunion companies that were run by the very same people as the union ones. locals here might remember when jimmy clark spun off Omni from Hyman, to do non union jobs. Later he made Clark Construction, one of the biggest in the world, which was built from both of these companies.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Wild,

I think carpenters, plumbers and sheet metal workers unions have faded in the DC area, but the electrical workers seems to be going strong in this market.

Hyman was a top notch company.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

rigid pipe said:


> Sorry...didn't mean to cause a debate...just was trying to get the scenerios for the company and fellow electricians with my question.


Mention union anywhere in America and a debate starts. Unions that once were strong have faded due to the political environment, economic environment and their lack of will to change tactics.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

brian john said:


> Wild,
> 
> I think carpenters, plumbers and sheet metal workers unions have faded in the DC area, but the electrical workers seems to be going strong in this market.
> 
> Hyman was a top notch company.


I think it is hard to compare your location with other locations in the country, due to the available money in DC, its an open checkbook with no balance.


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## rigid pipe (Jun 9, 2012)

*original posting*

quote


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

rigid pipe said:


> just wanted to see if anyone had answers to my original posting? If I go non union, will I EVER be able to return and if my employer cancels their agreement and goes non union, how do I and the rest of the employees handle the timing of it all? Do you just go in and resign and expect to work non union the next day?


As far as the IBEW you can solicit an honorary withdraw, which will go before your floor (just about every time approved with a vote) Now the possibility of getting back in might be hard dependent upon several issues including time, reason,were you a member in good standing before, just to name a few.
Now as far as Brian and his anti union post (by a union contractor no less) by your own post Brian your main issue against being union is a greed for the dollar and or benefits for you and yours. Yes the unions do have problems just as all walks of life can and will be corrupted by greed and lust for power. I do appreciate Brian for at least being honest, posting his appreciation for what he does have and has accomplished through union labor. Look I am of the opinion that union and or nonunion electricians are not going out and trying to take over all jobs and be a TSAR from hell. I was taught that the union members make personal sacrifices so that ALL WORKING CLASS benefits, not just our union members. No I was not taught to be a slave to a contractor, but to respect our contractors and bust your azz to ensure the contractor earns enough to be able to employ our members again.
No matter how hard people try and twist things up so that you might agree with their mentality concerning unions we have labor laws that protect the workers rights.If we learn more about what is licit in regards to our personal rights in the work place we might not have near as much conflict and more proactive towards creating better working conditions for those who will follow us plying this trade.


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## rigid pipe (Jun 9, 2012)

Brother Noah said:


> As far as the IBEW you can solicit an honorary withdraw, which will go before your floor (just about every time approved with a vote) Now the possibility of getting back in might be hard dependent upon several issues including time, reason,were you a member in good standing before, just to name a few.
> .


Would it be an honorary withdraw


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

rigid pipe said:


> Would it be an honorary withdraw when you leave to do electrical work for a non union contractor? It would seem that would be an example of the opposite?


That depends on your ethics.


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## Roger. (Dec 18, 2011)

Brother Noah said:


> As far as the IBEW you can solicit an honorary withdraw, which will go before your floor (just about every time approved with a vote) Now the possibility of getting back in might be hard dependent upon several issues including time, reason,were you a member in good standing before, just to name a few.
> Now as far as Brian and his anti union post (by a union contractor no less) by your own post Brian your main issue against being union is a greed for the dollar and or benefits for you and yours. Yes the unions do have problems just as all walks of life can and will be corrupted by greed and lust for power. I do appreciate Brian for at least being honest, posting his appreciation for what he does have and has accomplished through union labor. Look I am of the opinion that union and or nonunion electricians are not going out and trying to take over all jobs and be a TSAR from hell. I was taught that the union members make personal sacrifices so that ALL WORKING CLASS benefits, not just our union members. No I was not taught to be a slave to a contractor, but to respect our contractors and bust your azz to ensure the contractor earns enough to be able to employ our members again.
> No matter how hard people try and twist things up so that you might agree with their mentality concerning unions we have labor laws that protect the workers rights.If we learn more about what is licit in regards to our personal rights in the work place we might not have near as much conflict and more proactive towards creating better working conditions for those who will follow us plying this trade.


 
I vote for the mods to delete your posts until you learn how to use a space and enter bar. Your typing has to be an embarrassment to other union people.

Roger


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

brian john said:


> I have explained before, when I went in business the companies we did work for were union and required union contractors (their men would not work with open shop employees). I have been at this 27 years and am not about to change now, plus it offers a very good living and benefit package for my men, I do believe in taking care of my men.
> 
> I have also stated contractors I work for that operate similar size open shops, live a bit higher on the hog than I do. And while it is nice to take care of your employees, it is even nice to fatten your wallet.
> 
> I have stated over and over show me the benefit for the owners and the line about being able to get men is a bit over blown. There are more open shops than union shops, there are more non-union electricians than union electricians and all those shops get men.


27 years and no benefitss huh. Seems odd. 27 years of work that you would not of had without your union membership. Well you nailed it, the number 1 benefit of a union contractor is the ability to flex your man power accordingly and the ability to get highly skilled labor to meet your job demands.. Yeah I'm sure there are contractors that made some extra bucks, but I don't think your hurting either. You live in a nice area, have nice toys and take some nice trips. I thinks your doing just fine being signatory.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

rigid pipe said:


> just wanted to see if anyone had answers to my original posting? If I go non union, will I EVER be able to return and if my employer cancels their agreement and goes non union, how do I and the rest of the employees handle the timing of it all? Do you just go in and resign and expect to work non union the next day?


Good luck, I don't think that you would be welcomed back after leaving. If your employer is making that move, you would be better off to ask for a lay off, then go to the hall and sign the book.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

Loose Neutral said:


> Good luck, I don't think that you would be welcomed back after leaving. If your employer is making that move, you would be better off to ask for a lay off, then go to the hall and sign the book.


..his family owns the business :001_huh:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Brother Noah must be like Batman.. Commissioner Gorden sees a Union thread posted and picks up the red phone for Batman to come to the rescue.. :laughing:


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## rigid pipe (Jun 9, 2012)

360max said:


> ..his family owns the business :001_huh:


yuppp


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

rigid pipe said:


> Myself and the other electricians are supportive of going non union, sometimes things in life are huge gambles....sometimes they work out and sometimes they don't.


It looks to me that you have have already decided what you are going to do -or what you would like to see happen - and just want someone to tell you everything is going to be "ok".


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

B4T said:


> Brother Noah must be like Batman.. Commissioner Gorden sees a Union thread posted and picks up the red phone for Batman to come to the rescue.. :laughing:


..does that make Brian Batman? :laughing::laughing: Unions are great for the men and their families!!!


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

B4T said:


> Brother Noah must be like Batman.. Commissioner Gorden sees a Union thread posted and picks up the red phone for Batman to come to the rescue.. :laughing:


But first, the message must be encrypted by Chicken Steve.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

jrannis said:


> But first, the message must be encrypted by Chicken Steve.


:laughing::thumbup::laughing:


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## rigid pipe (Jun 9, 2012)

Celtic said:


> It looks to me that you have have already decided what you are going to do -or what you would like to see happen - and just want someone to tell you everything is going to be "ok".


No, I am on the fence....


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Brother Noah said:


> As far as the IBEW you can solicit an honorary withdraw, which will go before your floor (just about every time approved with a vote) Now the possibility of getting back in might be hard dependent upon several issues including time, reason,were you a member in good standing before, just to name a few.
> Now as far as Brian and his anti union post (by a union contractor no less) by your own post Brian your main issue against being union *is a greed for the dollar and or benefits for you and yours.* Yes the unions do have problems just as all walks of life can and will be corrupted by greed and lust for power. I do appreciate Brian for at least being honest, posting his appreciation for what he does have and has accomplished through union labor. Look I am of the opinion that union and or nonunion electricians are not going out and trying to take over all jobs and be a TSAR from hell. I was taught that the union members make personal sacrifices so that ALL WORKING CLASS benefits, not just our union members. No I was not taught to be a slave to a contractor, but to respect our contractors and bust your azz to ensure the contractor earns enough to be able to employ our members again.
> No matter how hard people try and twist things up so that you might agree with their mentality concerning unions we have labor laws that protect the workers rights.If we learn more about what is licit in regards to our personal rights in the work place we might not have near as much conflict and more proactive towards creating better working conditions for those who will follow us plying this trade.


But that is why we all work, for the dollar, if it wasn't for the dollar I'd be in the Keys fishing for Tarpon.

The union members when they ask for $6.00 over three years, that's greed.

I have no problem thinking how I can make more money, I am hurting no one, I am robbing no one, I may FAIR MY SHARE of taxes. On this matter I have no guilt.


But believe me when I say in meetings with other union EC's I am more pro-union that 70% of the owners.

I respect the union members, I understand how and why they want the most bang for their 40 hours a week, but due to rules on free speech I am allowed to bit*h about it. And if I was open shop I’d probably have a complaint about those workers as well.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

A questions for union members and PLEASE be honest, do you ever complain about the boss?

Having worked many union jobs I know the answer and in many cases this is the number one subject ahead of sports, beer and women, what a jerk the boss is. So why should I be any different, though I am not complaining about my men.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

360max said:


> ..his family owns the business :001_huh:


Well that might have an effect. I don't know his age but 20 years is pretty close to the magic 30.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Loose Neutral said:


> Well that might have an effect. I don't know his age but 20 years is pretty close to the magic 30.


 
If his primary task is as a electrician, card carrying union member, I'd have a hard time leaving the local. If his primary job is management and he is covered by his company and he plans to operate the shop some day, ME PERSONALLY, I'd have a hard time leaving MY LOCAL, can't speak for his. I have heard horror stories from some EC around the nation how different locals operate.


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## rigid pipe (Jun 9, 2012)

brian john said:


> I do quite well and I have excellent men, my point is my open shop associates, do better financially than I do. And my point is the union needs to do more to promote their benefits to owners if they truly want to grow in lieu of shrinking.
> 
> My local is growing in membership and contractors, how many locals in the USA can say that. Our local works quite well with the membership, contractors and customers.


Brian John,

Don't mean to beat a dead horse...


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## rigid pipe (Jun 9, 2012)

Loose Neutral said:


> Well that might have an effect. I don't know his age but 20 years is pretty close to the magic 30.


what is the magic 30? I am 39..


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## Amish Electrician (Jan 2, 2010)

Might n ot be anything to get your shorts in a knot over.

Maybe all the guy needs to do is get a 'withdraw' card from the local. In the new shop his position might be classed as 'management,' so he'd need to do that even if it were a union shop.


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## wwilson174 (Apr 25, 2008)

Roger. said:


> I vote for the mods to delete your posts until you learn how to use a space and enter bar. Your typing has to be an embarrassment to other union people.
> 
> Roger


I think that if there is a problem here, it is with your reading skills. BillW


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## Roger. (Dec 18, 2011)

wwilson174 said:


> I think that if there is a problem here, it is with your reading skills. BillW


Ooooops, maybe not an embarrasment to all union people, but I'm sure to many. 


Roger


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

brian john said:


> A questions for union members and PLEASE be honest, do you ever complain about the boss?


Mostly, the complaints I hear are about the GF or PM - not the actual owner/s.
In my experience with direct contact with owners ..most of these interactions are very pleasant....only 1 or 2 were complete tools.

On the non-union side....of the 4+/- ECs I worked for in 4+/- years....3 were jackasses...1 was hard, but a good boss ~ although he fired me.



brian john said:


> Having worked many union jobs I know the answer and in many cases this is the number one subject ahead of sports, beer and women, what a jerk the boss is. So why should I be any different, though I am not complaining about my men.


Many guys suffer from some sort of superiority complex....you are a jerk because they could do your job better than you, they would do it this way and not that way, etc etc etc.

Your guys may have figured out how the world operates...you provide the job, they perform to the best of their abilities, and you both make money.


I always wondered why, if these guys who complain so much are so awesome, aren't they running their own shop?
When I ponder that aloud, I become the next target for these knobs.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

wwilson174 said:


> I think that if there is a problem here, it is with your reading skills. BillW


Noah's post can be difficult to read at times.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

rigid pipe said:


> The owner just wants freedom. The union has been babysitting every aspect of which classification of electricians go where. It is very hard to balance that labor and make the customer happy at the same time for a small shop.


How is classifications becoming an issue?
If the company is sending out men not qualified to actually perform the work - how is that making the customer happy?
There aren't that many classifications here...C, B, A, and the specialty A work ~ welders, MV splicers, etc. 
It isn't real hard to stay within the lines when coloring here....unless you don't want to.

The local must have a reason for the heavy eyes.

Maybe an example would help me understand?


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

rigid pipe said:


> Brian John,
> 
> Don't mean to beat a dead horse...but the key may be to the "open shop" option. If you live in NJ which is NOT a right to work state, can the current owner either stay union or go non union, and can some of the electricians stay union (those who are vested, shall we say) and the others electricians go non union and stay with the company (even if it has to be closed and reopened? ) Is this option all dependant upon the signatory contact? The non union guys would be set up on independant health benefits and 401K, the union guys keep their package? I know this board may not know but maybe you can direct us to a resource that can help other than the union hall?


You have the choice! To stay union or drop your ticket and work nonunion. It may depend on what kind of contract the EC has signed with the local in question. The Journeymen can do as they please with maybe a stipulation where they have been topped out less than 5 years. Then the JATC may file suit against those persons to repay them for the 5 years of education.
What this sounds like to me though is you want to keep your union benefits and work nonunion???
Brian I agree that we are in it for monetary gain. I have never been an own so I have not a clue to those head aches (well maybe a tad bit)
As far as being disgruntled towards our supervisors ( hey that is part of what we get paid for) LOL! I have an excellent project manager at this post, yet we have disagreed once or twice but in the past I have butted heads with those in charge most of the time over something simple. Brian are you out of 26?


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Brother Noah said:


> You have the choice! To stay union or drop your ticket and work nonunion. It may depend on what kind of contract the EC has signed with the local in question. The Journeymen can do as they please with maybe a stipulation where they have been topped out less than 5 years. Then the JATC may file suit against those persons to repay them for the 5 years of education.
> What this sounds like to me though is you want to keep your union benefits and work nonunion???
> Brian I agree that we are in it for monetary gain. I have never been an own so I have not a clue to those head aches (well maybe a tad bit)
> As far as being disgruntled towards our supervisors ( hey that is part of what we get paid for) LOL! I have an excellent project manager at this post, yet we have disagreed once or twice but in the past I have butted heads with those in charge most of the time over something simple. Brian are you out of 26?


Please, this site is for electricians, not mouth pieces.


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## 19kilosparky984 (Sep 14, 2011)

Brother Noah said:


> You have the choice! To stay union or drop your ticket and work nonunion. It may depend on what kind of contract the EC has signed with the local in question. The Journeymen can do as they please with maybe a stipulation where they have been topped out less than 5 years. Then the JATC may file suit against those persons to repay them for the 5 years of education.
> What this sounds like to me though is you want to keep your union benefits and work nonunion???
> Brian I agree that we are in it for monetary gain. I have never been an own so I have not a clue to those head aches (well maybe a tad bit)
> As far as being disgruntled towards our supervisors ( hey that is part of what we get paid for) LOL! I have an excellent project manager at this post, yet we have disagreed once or twice but in the past I have butted heads with those in charge most of the time over something simple. Brian are you out of 26?


:sleep1::sleep1::sleep1::sleep1::sleep1:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Please, this site is for electricians, not mouth pieces.


I don't think Noah has ever done electrical work in his life. :no:


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## emahler (Oct 13, 2011)

brian john said:


> No problem. If you can go open shop I find it hard to believe you can't be double breasted?


New Jersey is one license, one company. If you are union, you are union. If you are open, you are open.

Many companies have both, but they run them through 2 companies on 2 difference licenses...


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

emahler said:


> New Jersey is one license, one company. If you are union, you are union. If you are open, you are open.
> 
> Many companies have both, but they run them through 2 companies on 2 difference licenses...


 
I THINK, in most states, that require licensing, it is one license one company.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

emahler said:


> New Jersey is one license, one company. If you are union, you are union. If you are open, you are open.
> 
> Many companies have both, but they run them through 2 companies on 2 difference licenses...


I know of a couple of ECs that are "split-shops".

What the exact agreement/arrangement with the locals are, I am not privy to.


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## rigid pipe (Jun 9, 2012)

You have the choice! To stay union or drop your ticket


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

Once your vested, I don't think they can take that back.


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## rigid pipe (Jun 9, 2012)

Loose Neutral said:


> Once your vested, I don't think they can take that back.


 they can't take it back


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## rigid pipe (Jun 9, 2012)

It is possible that this is the smaller IO pension...


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## wwilson174 (Apr 25, 2008)

brian john said:


> Noah's post can be difficult to read at times.


Just this one ?


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## Roger. (Dec 18, 2011)

wwilson174 said:


> Just this one ?


No, the majority of them and from what I understand, he has never answered an electrical question, hence BBQ's post about mouth pieces.


BTW, I'm working on my reading skills and I still can't make it through one of BN's posts

Roger


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## wwilson174 (Apr 25, 2008)

Roger. said:


> No, the majority of them and from what I understand, he has never answered an electrical question, hence BBQ's post about mouth pieces.
> 
> 
> BTW, I'm working on my reading skills and I still can't make it through one of BN's posts
> ...


He used the singular form, hence my question.BillW.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

BBQ said:


> Please, this site is for electricians, not mouth pieces.


Then why are you here? This is the union section.



Peter D said:


> I don't think Noah has ever done electrical work in his life. :no:


I would bet he has done much more than slap SE cable up the outside walls of houses and buildings. 
Are you a real electrician?



Roger. said:


> I'm working on my reading skills and I still can't make it through one of BN's posts


Keep working on them as your writing skills need work too.


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## Roger. (Dec 18, 2011)

John Valdes said:


> Keep working on them as your writing skills need work too.


:thumbsup:

Roger


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## Roger. (Dec 18, 2011)

wwilson174 said:


> He used the singular form, hence my question.BillW.


 Gotcha.

Roger


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

John Valdes said:


> Then why are you here? This is the union section.


Why are you here at all, your out of the trade now right? 





> I would bet he has done much more than slap SE cable up the outside walls of houses and buildings.


And you know that how?

Can you please find any post by Noah about electrical work?


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

John Valdes said:


> I would bet he has done much more than slap SE cable up the outside walls of houses and buildings.
> Are you a real electrician?


It must really suck to be you.


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## rigid pipe (Jun 9, 2012)

Ladies...:laughing:I don't meant to intrupt the bantor


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

wildleg said:


>


Thats every single one of us at one time or another.:laughing:


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

So much for this being a Union Topic..:whistling2:


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

BBQ said:


> Why are you here at all, your out of the trade now right? And you know that how? Can you please find any post by Noah about electrical work?


Does retirement disqualify me. If it does let me know. I will stop participating.
I know little about Noah and his posts. But it is the union section and he seems to have a pretty good knowledge of union inter-working.



Peter D said:


> It must really suck to be you.


No. Its tough to be me, sucks to be you! :laughing: Moms house and all. :whistling2:



jrannis said:


> So much for this being a Union Topic..:whistling2:


Sorry John. You are right.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

John Valdes said:


> No. Its tough to be me, sucks to be you! :laughing: Moms house and all. :whistling2:


Uh huh. I'm still waiting for that apology from you.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

Peter D said:


> Uh huh. I'm still waiting for that apology from you.


:laughing: Okay. For what?


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

BBQ said:


> Why are you here at all, your out of the trade now right?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Now I always thought that we plied the trade to earn a living? Now my zeal for the unions I will express from the heart, for free! It seems to me when ever a person feels insecure within the post being discussed, and they lash out with insults it is from fears and or phobias. Yes I have done electrical work a couple three times but I am no fan of doing residential or roping commercial jobs, no I chase industrial jobs (mostly power houses) Now I do expect a 2am wake up call and when you finish walking the dog please put out the cat!


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

John Valdes said:


> Does retirement disqualify me. If it does let me know. I will stop participating.


I actually don't think so at all, i think you are an asset here at the forum in many cases but you brought up if I should be here or not so of course you got crap for it. :laughing:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Brother Noah said:


> Yes I have done electrical work a couple three times


Plugging in the blower for the inflatable rat does not count as electrical work. :no:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

BBQ said:


> I actually don't think so at all, i think you are an asset here at the forum in many cases but you brought up if I should be here or not so of course you got crap for it. :laughing:


John is one of the quirkier assets, along with a few others and this site would not be the same with out him. Of course someone said the same thing about rewire.:laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## wwilson174 (Apr 25, 2008)

Roger. said:


> Ooooops, maybe not an embarrasment to all union people, but I'm sure to many.
> 
> 
> Roger


You probably meant " embarrassment" , BillW


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## al13nw4r3LC76 (Apr 6, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Plugging in the blower for the inflatable rat does not count as electrical work. :no:


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