# 2 firsts today



## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

#1 was finding taped up connections UNDER the wire nuts! #2 i really need help with. 3 and 4 way light circuit, upstairs (3) switches only work if the downstairs switch is on. simple, right ? just get the wires on the switches in the right order. however, at the end(or beggining) of this cicuit is a 4way switch. how the  does that work? hope my drawing is clear enough, was in a hurry


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Drawing isn't really clear. Are they switching the neutral? It looks like it runs to the last 3 way. I don't see where they brought in power.

Without knowing what's going on, all I'll say is this: If you start the circuit with a 4-way instead of a 3-way and the common conductor only lands on a single screw, then the circuit will only work with the switch in one position, like you describe.

Without understanding your drawing, it sounds like you just need to swap switch types, but definitely confirm that more carefully.


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## robmac85 (Nov 20, 2013)

Drew this assuming the feed and load up to the lights are in the same box. You have to have a 3 way at each end in order for it to work. You could use a 4 way as a 3 way in a pinch just have to ring out the terminals on the switch.


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

i got that, but what i havent been able to figure out is where the 2nd set of red 7white wires go from the last (1st) switch to make this work at all!:001_huh:


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

b.j., the power comes from a home run to the box on the far right, then all the way to the other end through each switch location!:001_huh:


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

Sounds like you might be looking for a hidden switch. It looks like your fed 4 way will work as long as the switch loop is sent to one 3 way and the hot feed to the other


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

there are some weird combos on this floor, so far they dont seem to be interconnected except for power source. was built in 93, deffinitly one remodel of the kitchen(going on 2)


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

papaotis said:


> #1 was finding taped up connections UNDER the wire nuts! #2 i really need help with. 3 and 4 way light circuit, upstairs (3) switches only work if the downstairs switch is on. simple, right ? just get the wires on the switches in the right order. however, at the end(or beggining) of this cicuit is a 4way switch. how the  does that work? hope my drawing is clear enough, was in a hurry


I can't see the real wiring obviously, but from your drawing the hot (P) is connected to a traveler terminal. The common is usually the single terminal. Your drawing is showing the single terminal as a traveler.
Your symptoms also seem to match that.


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

imo, yes but it all makes sense except the 4 way at the end(begining) with 2 reds and 2 whites going where? it has to be to the lights, but how?:001_huh:


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

papaotis said:


> imo, yes but it all makes sense except the 4 way at the end(begining) with 2 reds and 2 whites going where? it has to be to the lights, but how?:001_huh:


in your pic , the last 4 way sw has to be changed to a three way (where you have ? above R and W). And the last three way you have hooked up wrong, the power goes to the lone screw. Confirm all wiring.


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

found that fifth switch today, in a bank of six by the front door! switched two wires and everything worked just right. then ,putting switches back in box upstairs, lights kept going on and off. bad switch. change it. cant get any lights to work! switch wires around thinking i may have crossed. no luck. meter the new switch. works fine. meter the wires to the switch with no switch in place, get 120 on two reds 75 0n other 2. switch-aroo wires ,get 120 on 1, 75 on 1 18 on oter two! take it all apart (again) get different voltages between all 4, but always at least 1 120. yerah i know it would usually mean a bad neutral, but cant find that and how did that change from just changing a switsh in a box where there is no neutral?


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Ho-ly smokes. Is this one of those mazes on the back of the kiddie menus at the pancake house? What the hell am I looking at? :laughing:


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## stuiec (Sep 25, 2010)

Big John said:


> Ho-ly smokes. Is this one of those mazes on the back of the kiddie menus at the pancake house? What the hell am I looking at? :laughing:


Perhaps you just need a little different perspective....


View attachment 32470


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Dammit, now I'm confused _and_ angry. It's like being a teenager all over again.


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## stuiec (Sep 25, 2010)

:laughing:


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

yeah i guess its not so clear in someone elses sight, (well noy mine either) but thats what we get when we redraw over the top of the original unfinished drawing!:laughing:


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## markore (Dec 7, 2011)

stuiec said:


> Perhaps you just need a little different perspective....


Naiiwce! California 3-Way! Also, corridor 3 way! now I've got that Frazier theme song stuck in my head...


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

Screw positions can vary depending on the manufacture. Some are side to side and some are top and bottom. If your 4 way switches are all the same it would be less complicated to trouble shoot. Sometimes it’s something simple but when you are mad or frustrated its best practice to go have lunch and come back and try again when you are more relaxed.


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

The sketches that are posted are showing black and white as your travelers. Is this set up ran with a 2 wire or three wire? You did mention RED wires in post #4. If so you really need to keep the grounded conductor (neutral) separated for use with switches that require them to be code compliant. 

*Neutrals*. When wiring lighting circuits supplied by a grounded general-purpose branch circuit, the 2011 NEC now requires you to provide a *neutral* conductor at nearly every *switch* point [404.2(C)]. The purpose for this is to complete a circuit path for electronic lighting control devices, such as occupancy sensors.


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## Wardenclyffe (Jan 11, 2019)

3285 days ago,...


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

Wardenclyffe said:


> 3285 days ago,...


Oh well.. :O
Thanks for waking me up. It always helps to read before posting.


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