# Metal studs without Bushings/Grommets?



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

You don't need to show a homeowner pictures. Show em the code book and then write them your report. Simple. Code is code and if they don't like it tough. Those cables are supposed to be in plastic bushings.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

the cable usually gets damaged during installation, hence the reason for the bushings. If the cable is going to be concealed, I don't know what code article you can use for a violation other that the general rule



> 300.4 Protection Against Physical Damage. Where subject
> to physical damage, conductors, raceways, and cables
> shall be protected.


The problem is, they are not really subject to damage once the wall is covered up, are they ? 

Or you could use the old standby for inspectors who don't know the code article, and cite "workmanlike" (I'll get you find it). show em some scary pictures so they don't argue with you.


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## Bob Sisson (Dec 17, 2012)

Since I don't have my ICC certificate, I don't quote code, I just say it is wrong, very wrong, and an Electrician can tell you how wrong it is and the code references if they really want them.

Without quoting code I can still tell them why it is wrong, and what the possible consequences are (house burning down, electrocution, etc...) and that gets their attention so they call you. 

Will try to post some other pictures for 'comment' in the near future....


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## Ultrafault (Dec 16, 2012)

What do you charge for an inspection?


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## Awg-Dawg (Jan 23, 2007)

Bob Sisson said:


> I don't quote code, I just say it is wrong, very wrong,


 
How can you inspect something and not back it by a code section?

This is the reason HI have a bad rap.


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## Bob Sisson (Dec 17, 2012)

I get the code question a lot from electricians. I get a few hours to do the entire house. I am there to do TRIAGE and determine who needs to be called in and the magnitude of the issues. I cover the Roof, Chimneys, walls, exterior, driveway, grading....HVAC...ELECTRICAL...APPLIANCES, etc...

I go to MANY classes on a variety of things, from oil burners, cisterns, septic systems, roofing materials, Framing, Trusses, Manufactured lumber, residential electrical panels, sometimes even a code update class. But I am there for TRIAGE... so what I need is rough knowledge...GFCI's were required starting in 1987 and new work requires them, AFCI's since middle 2000's, wire nuts "Bad", FPE BAD, burn marks bad, 20A on 14g Bad, HVAC compressor much match nameplate. For each one of those there are MANY code references. Do I know more detail, yes. Do I carry the NEC, code check books, and more, yes. Do I look stuff up, yes, but I am not a licensed electrician so I can't quote code, I leave that up to you guys. I ask a LOT of questions, and learn stuff every day. 

BUT...my client, the possible home buyer, doesn't WANT code. They want an ENGLISH bullet list in terms they can understand of what they should have the seller have fixed. 

-The kitchen outlets needs GFCI's
vs.
-Per the 198X ICC code, adopted in your city/town in 19XX, E3902.6, Kitchen Receptacles, All 125-volt, single-phase, ...

The bottom line is, My client, and the Realtor, the Other Realtor, and the seller don't want code. They want simple stuff. When it comes to why legally do they need a GFCI in the kitchen, I leave that up to you.


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## Bob Sisson (Dec 17, 2012)

As for fees, we start at about $395 and that covers about 2,000 sq.ft from roof to basement. The final price is determined by the sq.ft. and the sales price. $395 covers about 3-3.5 hours and includes a 16 section report provided onsite, only ONE section of which is electrical.


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## Bob Sisson (Dec 17, 2012)

Back to code again...
Remember TRIAGE. Most of what HI's do is look for gross errors. GFCI's, AFCI's, Rev Polarity, open/missing grounds, undersized wires, open boxes, exposed splices, Outdated panels, scorch marks, Frayed Entrance cables, Service drops that go through trees, Water in Panels, Mixed Gnd/Neutrals in panels other than the main.... 

The list of things HI's have been trained to look for by (friendly) electricians is long. I have been to several of Mike Holt's classes. 

If I see Aluminium wires (with burn marks) on a Federal Pacific Stab-Loc Panel, do I need to look up code? Nope.

Brand new Kitchen, with new (added) outlets, with not a single GFCI anywhere, do I need to look up code...Nope.

Home Owner renovated basement where they added a lot of circuits and now have 12 hand throws in the "Main" section of their panel... Nope.

A GE Breaker in a Cutler Hammer CH Panel (don't know how they got it to stay in)... Nope.

A Water heater moved by the homeowner and now on a 12g wire. Nope.

What is the percentage fill of the wires in the conduit going to the Sub-panel for the...
Did they pull a permit, was it finalled, if not... 

Again, Triage. I try not call out nuisance stuff, and I also try to let you have flexibility. If you look at what I have seen, and will in writing, with your license number on it, say that something is safe, I am happy, and I tell my client that. I also tell them to keep that paper for when they sell, as the next HI is going to ask the same question....


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## Ultrafault (Dec 16, 2012)

I see your point. Well put.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

I never quote rules when I advise a customer of code violations. I simply say "per electrical code".


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

There are houses here that were wired with the water heaters on 20 amp rated circuits. Now I do not know if it was ever accepted per NEC but apparently it was on the local level.


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## dthurmond (Feb 7, 2011)

aftershockews said:


> There are houses here that were wired with the water heaters on 20 amp rated circuits. Now I do not know if it was ever accepted per NEC but apparently it was on the local level.


It would depend on the water heater . Lots of mobile homes are on 20 amp breakers . Lots of smaller hot water heaters also .


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

dthurmond said:


> It would depend on the water heater . Lots of mobile homes are on 20 amp breakers . Lots of smaller hot water heaters also .


 These are 4500 watt water heaters mainly wired mid 60's till early 70's back when AL was popular.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

wildleg said:


> The problem is, they are not really subject to damage once the wall is covered up, are they ?


You're probably right but, if it was my own house, I would fix it.

The last time I came across this, there was no hesitation by the homeowner to fix it. It was an easy fix, though. Disabled the offending circuits and ran EMT on the wall. It was a mechanical/storage room.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

if the wire wasn't damaged when installed, there is, in my opinion, no violation per NEC code. Now I'm not a code expert, just a licensed electrician in my state, so what do I know ? But If you are going to say something is a code violation then you should damn well be able to cite the code article. I'm not saying I don't use bushings in that circumstance either. But I don't know what the violation is, and I don't see it in the code book. And if it is impossible to yank on those wires after they are installed, and the wall is closed in, how exactly is it dangerous ?

now I assumed earlier (and I guess wrongly) that this was a close in inspection, so I guess you could cite "subject to damage", since that really is the case apparently. (300.4,334.15B,334.30 -2011)

just my 02


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## Wpgshocker (Jan 25, 2013)

wildleg said:


> if the wire wasn't damaged when installed, there is, in my opinion, no violation per NEC code. Now I'm not a code expert, just a licensed electrician in my state, so what do I know ?


Wow....really? 

The bushings are not just for installation purposes, your logic is flawed. 
Metal studs can cut through the sheath and insulation over time. Vibration, doors slamming etc. I have personally been into a basement that damn near burnt up for that very reason. NMD in the steel stud without bushings. The washers spin cycle, laundry room door and who knows what other vibrations eventually cut through to the neutral. Funny thing is, breaker never tripped. Lots of heat and charring inside the wall.


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## wcord (Jan 23, 2011)

wildleg said:


> if the wire wasn't damaged when installed, .


Just because there is no damage today, doesn't mean the wire won't be damaged in the future. The cable laying on the shape edge will eventually be cut. All structures have movement/vibration, which causes loose items to move.
Steel studs are no different than knockouts without bushings. 
I would assume your NEC has something about mechanical protection when running wires into enclosures or some such metallic item.

wpgshocker- beat me to the response.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Ha Ha. My least expensive inspection takes about a half hour and is the same amount.... All I do with those is check what you guy's wrote up and give it the ''YES, yes, no,yes, no,no''


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

CEC has a specific rule. I'm surprised the NEC doesn't.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

99cents said:


> CEC has a specific rule. I'm surprised the NEC doesn't.


300.4 (B) (1) Damn, I'm supposed to be retired from this crap....


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## StevieScott (Jul 26, 2014)

Bob Sisson said:


> Since I don't have my ICC certificate, I don't quote code, I just say it is wrong, very wrong, and an Electrician can tell you how wrong it is and the code references if they really want them.
> 
> Without quoting code I can still tell them why it is wrong, and what the possible consequences are (house burning down, electrocution, etc...) and that gets their attention so they call you.
> 
> Will try to post some other pictures for 'comment' in the near future....


I agree with you Bob. I also haven't my ICC certificate, but I have a lot of knowledge about electricity and it is not necessary that a needs a ICC certificate for suggesting something.


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