# Clarifying "Journeyman" terminology



## MattM-NC (Dec 11, 2016)

I don't understand the use of "apprentice" "journeyman" and "master".
The NC Board of Examiners of Electrical Contractors doesn't use this terminology, and neither does my boss. Is this a union thing? Is there actually a formal "journeyman" license in some states? Or is it just an informal way of saying, "I'm not new anymore, but I'm still learning."

For context, I work in residential in North Carolina, and I've got about 4000 hours of experience but probably only about half of that on w-2. The other half as 1099. I am not part of a union, I just started working for a licensed Electrician a couple years ago. At first under the table, then he hired me on officially after a while. Before that I worked for a different licensed electrician, 1099, part time for a while.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

MattM-NC said:


> I don't understand the use of "apprentice" "journeyman" and "master".
> The NC Board of Examiners of Electrical Contractors doesn't use this terminology, and neither does my boss. Is this a union thing? Is there actually a formal "journeyman" license in some states? Or is it just an informal way of saying, "I'm not new anymore, but I'm still learning."
> 
> For context, I work in residential in North Carolina, and I've got about 4000 hours of experience but probably only about half of that on w-2. The other half as 1099. I am not part of a union, I just started working for a licensed Electrician a couple years ago. At first under the table, then he hired me on officially after a while. Before that I worked for a different licensed electrician, 1099, part time for a while.


NC contractors are salivating for a guy like you who doesn't know about licensing and proper pay rates. Carry on....


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

1099 is a contractor. If you had a boss, who told you what, where, and when, you were a misclassified employee. You got exploited, basically. I'm sure he was a nice guy, though.


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## MattM-NC (Dec 11, 2016)

The 1099 boss probably lost his shirt on me. I barely knew how to change a light bulb when I started working with him, and he really showed me the basics at $15.00. He was older, and needed someone younger and willing to crawl around in attics. But I look back at how many fixtures I broke and how long it took me to make a splice and I laugh.


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

MattM-NC said:


> The 1099 boss probably lost his shirt on me. I barely knew how to change a light bulb when I started working with him, and he really showed me the basics at $15.00. He was older, and needed someone younger and willing to crawl around in attics. But I look back at how many fixtures I broke and how long it took me to make a splice and I laugh.


Well, just doing a simple tax bracket calculation, assuming you worked a full year at that wage, nothing more or less, and assuming you actually did your own taxes, you would've been making an average of $12.97 an hour. This is income tax only, I'm not factoring in health insurance or any other tax (social security, medicar etc). That's not bad starting out. It's still cheaper than if he had to pay for all the insurances and payroll taxes, etc, if you had been an employee.

EDIT: To answer your initial question, I don't know about NC, but in other states, yes, Apprentice, Journeyman, and Master are all state licenses.


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## MattM-NC (Dec 11, 2016)

TGGT said:


> To answer your initial question, I don't know about NC, but in other states, yes, Apprentice, Journeyman, and Master are all state licenses.



Apparently, there are 10 different classifications of electrical license in NC and none of them are called "apprentice" or "Journeyman". However, that doesn't stop the NCBEEC from recognizing one's hours as a "journeyman" towards licensure. So they do recognize the status but don't bestow it....
I just sent them an email asking for clarity. If I hear back from them I'll update the thread. 

As far as the replies here regarding my exploitation as a worker, I'm very curious what you are getting at and what opportunities I may be missing. But I'll start a different thread for that.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Minnesota

Apprentice: Time on job, 0-7999 hrs 

Journeyman: Time on job, + 8000 hrs ( after passing state test)

Master: Time on job, +10,000 hrs (after passing state test)


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

MattM-NC said:


> I don't understand the use of "apprentice" "journeyman" and "master".
> The NC Board of Examiners of Electrical Contractors doesn't use this terminology, and neither does my boss. Is this a union thing? Is there actually a formal "journeyman" license in some states? Or is it just an informal way of saying, "I'm not new anymore, but I'm still learning."
> 
> For context, I work in residential in North Carolina, and I've got about 4000 hours of experience but probably only about half of that on w-2. The other half as 1099. I am not part of a union, I just started working for a licensed Electrician a couple years ago. At first under the table, then he hired me on officially after a while. Before that I worked for a different licensed electrician, 1099, part time for a while.


2000 hours is a decent years work, 4000 is two years.
Don't go throwing the 1099 word around, that isn't legal to do in the electrical trade, at least in Florida.
Florida and NC have similar laws and standards.
Your classification can only be "helper" at this point.
If you can find a formal apprenticship program, that will formalize your education and status in the trade. We generally only see this outside of union shops unless your contractor takes on government work.
Generally, if you are working in the trades on a PW job, you are paid journeyman wages unless you are officially enrolled and working as an apprentice. 

With that said, it's very common for an older one man show to pick up a young guy and work him as he do you. Not 100% legal but, it is what it is.

The IBEW construction requires each local union to offer membership to all working in the electrical trades. 
That doesn't always happen. The NE tightly manages its labor market. The south keeps itself poor and independent and culturally cannot work as one team.

Some fact, some fiction, some lifetime observations. Bottom line is, if there is somekind of licensing in your state or county, you should work towards obtaining them as soon as you can. Having those licenses will distinguish you from the other helpers.


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## PlugsAndLights (Jan 19, 2016)

Note to Matt, I was going to send you a pm, but you don't have that enabled. 
Your choice. 
P&L


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

Matt,

I would be more than happy to help you understand NC laws. Shoot me a PM if you want.


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## Essex (Feb 4, 2015)

*Clarifying &quot;Journeyman&quot; terminology*

Out of interest is it just hours that pushes you up the ranks or is there exams/inspections on your workmanship along the way?

Also how do you account for the hours?


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Essex said:


> Out of interest is it just hours that pushes you up the ranks or is there exams/inspections on your workmanship along the way?
> 
> Also how do you account for the hours?


Thinking of trying out yourself are you?


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## Essex (Feb 4, 2015)

macmikeman said:


> Thinking of trying out yourself are you?




No thanks. I want to go forward not backwards


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Essex said:


> Out of interest is it just hours that pushes you up the ranks or is there exams/inspections on your workmanship along the way?
> 
> Also how do you account for the hours?


More proof of how little this troll knows about electrical. Not from the U.K. either.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

From Wiki

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrician



> Electricians are trained to one of three levels: Apprentice, Journeyman, and Master Electrician. In the US and Canada, apprentices work and receive a reduced compensation while learning their trade. They generally take several hundred hours of classroom instruction and are contracted to follow apprenticeship standards for a period of between three and six years, during which time they are paid as a percentage of the Journeyman's pay. Journeymen are electricians who have completed their Apprenticeship and who have been found by the local, State, or National licensing body to be competent in the electrical trade. Master Electricians have performed well in the trade for a period of time, often seven to ten years, and have passed an exam to demonstrate superior knowledge of the National Electrical Code, or NEC.


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## MattM-NC (Dec 11, 2016)

not sure how to PM or to allow PM's...I poked around in the options but didn't see anything....


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## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

PM's may be restricted until you hit a certain post count.


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

Yep, I think it's 15 posts ... Mods know if your a bot or cheezy salesman by then


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## MattM-NC (Dec 11, 2016)

I just got this response from an email I sent last week to the North Carolina Board of Examiners of Electrical Contractors:

"We consider a “journeyman electrician” an individual that know the supplies to pack on the truck, run the job without assistance. We typically leave it up to the employer to decide if the employee is of that capacity. Journeyman electrician is PRIMARY EXPERIENCE. Thank you, Michelle Ames/NC Board of Examiners of Electrical Contractors"


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

MattM-NC said:


> I just got this response from an email I sent last week to the North Carolina Board of Examiners of Electrical Contractors:
> 
> "We consider a “journeyman electrician” an individual that know the supplies to pack on the truck, run the job without assistance. We typically leave it up to the employer to decide if the employee is of that capacity. Journeyman electrician is PRIMARY EXPERIENCE. Thank you, Michelle Ames/NC Board of Examiners of Electrical Contractors"


Um... lets see now


Beer- check
Bag of weed- check
Time Life electrical wiring book for homeowners and hacks- check
Blue boxes- check
inwall romex connectors- check

Ok good to go, I'm a journeyman!


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

MattM-NC said:


> I don't understand the use of "apprentice" "journeyman" and "master".
> The NC Board of Examiners of Electrical Contractors doesn't use this terminology, and neither does my boss. Is this a union thing? Is there actually a formal "journeyman" license in some states? Or is it just an informal way of saying, "I'm not new anymore, but I'm still learning."


I'm one state south of you and we do have these terms and what these terms mean.
We don't use the term apprentice much because most new guys in the trade here are not apprentices and do not track hours.
We have Journeyman and Masters in SC and each title requires specific time in the trade and to be able to pass a licensing exam.



Essex said:


> Out of interest is it just hours that pushes you up the ranks or is there exams/inspections on your workmanship along the way?
> Also how do you account for the hours?


W2 forms verify the hours. Testing verifies the ability/knowledge of the license applicant.
Remember the discussion on videos? Those videos were designed to help with the testing. 



MattM-NC said:


> I just got this response from an email I sent last week to the North Carolina Board of Examiners of Electrical Contractors:
> 
> "We consider a “journeyman electrician” an individual that know the supplies to pack on the truck, run the job without assistance. We typically leave it up to the employer to decide if the employee is of that capacity. Journeyman electrician is PRIMARY EXPERIENCE. Thank you, Michelle Ames/NC Board of Examiners of Electrical Contractors"


Sounds silly to me.
I would look it up myself. Dennis Alwon is licensed in your state and a moderator here. Maybe he can shed some light on this.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

John Valdes said:


> Sounds silly to me.
> I would look it up myself. Dennis Alwon is licensed in your state and a moderator here. Maybe he can shed some light on this.


 
Sounds strange to me, but strange things do happen.


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## active1 (Dec 29, 2009)

Every state is different on their classification system.
In general:
Apprentice: 0-5 years in the trade. Some areas require attending classes. Needs to be supervised by journeyman or apprentice.

Journeyman: Has experience in the trade and passed an electrical test. 4-5 years documented experience is common. Classroom experience may be needed or more years experience. Can supervise an apprentice.

Master: More experience required, like 6-8 years. Classroom experience may be needed or even more years experience. Test is longer and much harder than journeyman exam. Can supervise an apprentice. A electrical contractor may need to have a master electrician registered with them. Other areas it's called an electrical contractor exam. About the same thing except it includes a business law test.

Now where it gets confusing is may places have the above classifications in different categories. Such as a residential journeyman, commercial journeyman, unlimited journeyman, sign journeyman, oilfield journeyman, etc... The more limited categories are much easier to qualify for, such as a sign electrician. Where the unlimited (work on most everything) is the most demanding of requirements to qualify.

For the IBEW there is a journeyman wireman and apprentice electrician. No master level. You can also break it down into different categories like maintenance, sign, resi, etc. There are also commercial electricians and commercial wireman at some locals.

The difference is the first is the state or local license to work.
The second is the job classification at the union hall.
They don't always match.

In areas that licensing is not enforced or pushed companies or the workers tend to make their own title. Such as "I've worked for 5 years, I'm a journeyman", yet had no education or testing. Or calling a person an apprentice that is not in an apprenticeship. 

Most areas require documented experience to qualify for an exam. If you can't document it, then it didn't happen. Don't expect your past employer to write you a letter stating you worked for cash. 

1099 is never a good way for an individual not in business to work for a company.
You give up a ton of workers rights. Later if you claim unemployment they will say their records show you didn't work. You look back on your Social Security earnings and see a $0 for the year. You get hurt and your SOL. Don't call the DOL if you didn't get paid. You can forget about overtime pay and break period requirements. The end of the year you'll probably owe money and possibly penalties for not paying the IRS quarterly.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

active1 said:


> For the IBEW there is a journeyman wireman and apprentice electrician. No master level. You can also break it down into different categories like maintenance, sign, resi, etc. There are also commercial electricians and commercial wireman at some locals.


There is no rule that a union journeyman cannot take a Masters test and carry a license that I know of.
In fact, I would think that would give him or her a leg up on foreman or supervisor pay grade.
Might even get him in the office as a PM.


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## active1 (Dec 29, 2009)

John Valdes said:


> There is no rule that a union journeyman cannot take a Masters test and carry a license that I know of.
> In fact, I would think that would give him or her a leg up on foreman or supervisor pay grade.
> Might even get him in the office as a PM.


That's what I meant where I wrote they don't always match between union classification and state / local licensing. 

It's 2 separate things, a license and a job classification. 

In IBEW you're classified as a JW no matter if you have a local journeyman or master license. If your found to be qualified as a JW you take a JW call. There is no maser electrician calls. Don't confuse the matter. Yes you can be a licensed master. But the calls (jobs) are for a JW.

Holding a masters lic vs a journeymans lic is not reverent in this area to union contractors. If anything they are more concerned with certs to hire.


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## MattM-NC (Dec 11, 2016)

John Valdes said:


> Sounds silly to me.
> I would look it up myself. Dennis Alwon is licensed in your state and a moderator here. Maybe he can shed some light on this.


 You are the second person in this thread to recommend "looking it up". Is not the website for the NC Board of Examiners of Electrical Contractors and a member of that board the final authority? Or is there another regulating agency...


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## TRurak (Apr 10, 2016)

In Massachusetts you are an apprentice until you take your journeymans test. In order to take that test you need 8000 hours in the field verified by a licensed electrician and 600 school hours. It works out to 4 years. For a masters, you have to hold a journeymans for a year and take another 150 hours of class. 

In Massachusetts you need a journeymans license to work and a Masters to hire journeymen because they want 2 renewal fees out of us........ Communists


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