# 2 Pole GFCI Breaker No Neutral



## BobBob (Aug 14, 2010)

Would a 2 pole GFCI breaker work supplying a motor load only by just hooking up the curly wire to bar? 2 Hots and Ground


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Yes, the line side tail must be connected. That is how you do it with a straight 240v load.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

BobBob said:


> Would a 2 pole GFCI breaker work supplying a motor load only by just hooking up the curly wire to bar? 2 Hots and Ground


 

It will operate fine like that, and some are even made that way. They have the curly wire, but no lug for a grounded conductor.


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## danickstr (Mar 21, 2010)

What is the point of the neutral tail? :001_huh:


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## ampman (Apr 2, 2009)

danickstr said:


> What is the point of the neutral tail? :001_huh:


 really?????


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## danickstr (Mar 21, 2010)

I guess I have disappointed you, I will have to live with that.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

danickstr said:


> What is the point of the neutral tail? :001_huh:



So the electronics will have 120v to function with?


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## ampman (Apr 2, 2009)

danickstr said:


> I guess I have disappointed you, I will have to live with that.


 no not me just everybody else on this fourm:laughing:


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## danickstr (Mar 21, 2010)

ROFL. If you are so smart, I would love to hear your explanation.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

The breaker needs a grounded reference point would be my guess. This way the breaker monitors line-to-line as well as line-to-grounded at the same time.
If there is an even level of leakage at 240v the breaker would not know and not trip. 
Sound feasible?


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## ampman (Apr 2, 2009)

danickstr said:


> ROFL. If you are so smart, I would love to hear your explanation.


true a straight 240v load does not need to have the neutral pigtail connected but many manufacures of hot tubs sometimes have 120 volt loads in their units (much like a dryer that is fed with 240v but has 120 v loads such as light, timers,ect.) the breaker still senses the incoming power with the outgoing power for an inbalance . all hut tubs i have wired do have a neutral for this reason ,but then again when you wire a 240v outlet on a temp pole it has to be gfi protected i think the manufactures of the 240v gfi breakers have to cover all bases weather a neutral load is preasent or not


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## danickstr (Mar 21, 2010)

I actually do not know if 120V loads would work at all. I wonder if the test button runs on 120V?

I mean, uses it to leak current off of the balanced 240.


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## ampman (Apr 2, 2009)

danickstr said:


> I actually do not know if 120V loads would work at all. I wonder if the test button runs on 120V?
> 
> I mean, uses it to leak current off of the balanced 240.


 the test button must use circuitry to trip the breaker since there is no grounding conductor present


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## danickstr (Mar 21, 2010)

ampman said:


> the test button must use circuitry to trip the breaker since there is no grounding conductor present


really???? (quoted from fellow sparky):laughing:
Where is the circuitry "putting" the current to make the test button fail?


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## ampman (Apr 2, 2009)

danickstr said:


> really???? (quoted from fellow sparky):laughing:
> Where is the circuitry "putting" the current to make the test button fail?


well genious whats your explanation i have not herd anything from you yet that even resembles a first year helper ,hell my dog knows more than you will ever know and can pull wire better to in fact he even looks better from behind on a bad day anyway that was my guess because i don't know what makes one trip do you


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## Split Bolt (Aug 30, 2010)

Now now girls, you're both pretty! Can we move on now?:laughing:

Seriously, a lot of hot tubs are now straight 240V, no neutral. A 2-pole GFCI works fine. In fact, in a local jurisdiction here, I had a hot tub fail inspection once for "no neutral conductor." I left a very nasty message on the inspector's voice mail and asked him if I'm going to be required to pull a neutral to the unit and just cap it off since there's no place to connect it? The dude never called me back, but changed it from "failed" to "passed" on their website!


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Split Bolt said:


> Now now girls, you're both pretty! Can we move on now?:laughing:
> 
> Seriously, a lot of hot tubs are now straight 240V, no neutral. A 2-pole GFCI works fine. In fact, in a local jurisdiction here, I had a hot tub fail inspection once for "no neutral conductor." I left a very nasty message on the inspector's voice mail and asked him if I'm going to be required to pull a neutral to the unit and just cap it off since there's no place to connect it? The dude never called me back, but changed it from "failed" to "passed" on their website!



An inspector with no class:no::no:


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Split Bolt said:


> Now now girls, you're both pretty! Can we move on now?:laughing:
> 
> Seriously, a lot of hot tubs are now straight 240V, no neutral. A 2-pole GFCI works fine. In fact, in a local jurisdiction here, I had a hot tub fail inspection once for "no neutral conductor." I left a very nasty message on the inspector's voice mail and asked him if I'm going to be required to pull a neutral to the unit and just cap it off since there's no place to connect it? The dude never called me back, but changed it from "failed" to "passed" on their website!


 

I had the same thing happen here. I failed for the wrong size GEC on a service, only I know I had the right size. I left messages for the inspector, and waited for the status to change on-line. It did, but he never called me back


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## Split Bolt (Aug 30, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> I had the same thing happen here. I failed for the wrong size GEC on a service, only I know I had the right size. I left messages for the inspector, and waited for the status to change on-line. It did, but he never called me back


I would have respected the guy if he had called to say that he was wrong and that he would change the permit status! After all, we are all human and make mistakes!:thumbsup:


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## BobBob (Aug 14, 2010)

*No Neutral*

This was a brand of Hot tub that was fed from a 2 pole 30 amp and 2 pole 20 amp breakers. Once we figured out which figured out which diagram to use (there were 6 choices) then we hooked up the 20 amp 2 pole with the neutral load then to the neutral isolated bar then the 30 amp 2 pole required "no neutral" which was news to me. I was basically wondering where to put the curly (line) wire. It did show on the isolated neutral bar with other. 

Another thought, would it work better, different, or not at all if you landed the 30 amp curly (line) wire on the ground bar in sub panel (isolated from neutral). 

Take longer to trip or shorter or not at all ???


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## danickstr (Mar 21, 2010)

thanks to ampman for the great laughs. :thumbsup:

Its been awhile since I was compared to a dog's back end. At least a couple days. Funny, but not really germane to the argument

I still say the best use of a neutral tail on the 2 pole GFI is to "leak" off the current for the testing circuit.

I would think the balancing circuit for the verification of no loss of current on either pole could be engineered to run without a neutral, since its job is only to compare what goes out on each pole and confirm it returns on the other without a net current loss greater than 5mA.


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## ampman (Apr 2, 2009)

danickstr said:


> thanks to ampman for the great laughs. :thumbsup:
> 
> Its been awhile since I was compared to a dog's back end. At least a couple days. Funny, but not really germane to the argument
> 
> ...


 well i'am glad you took in the way it was meant we are all in this together and if you cant take a little ribbing then go work at buger world


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