# Heated floor inspection fail



## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

I’ve done a ton of these this year with a standard breaker and a gfci thermostat. 

This was the first one I failed because this setup wasn’t on a AFCI breaker. 

I can’t find it in the code book. It states outlets and devices. I suppose the thermostat is a device. Anyone run into this ?


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

WronGun said:


> I’ve done a ton of these this year with a standard breaker and a gfci thermostat.
> 
> This was the first one I failed because this setup wasn’t on a AFCI breaker.
> 
> ...


Inspector is correct if it’s a 20 amp or less circuit and in the areas needing AFCI protection. 

(A) Dwelling Units.

All 120-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere branch circuits supplying outlets or devices installed in dwelling unit kitchens, family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms, parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sunrooms, recreation rooms, closets, hallways, laundry areas, or similar rooms or areas shall be protected by any of the means described in 210.12(A)(1) through (6


Device.


A unit of an electrical system, other than a conductor, that carries or controls electric energy as its principal function.


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## wcord (Jan 23, 2011)

Does that mean you have to install Arc faults on direct connected equipment such as furnace or dishwasher ?
What about lighting circuits? A switch controls electric energy.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

wcord said:


> Does that mean you have to install Arc faults on direct connected equipment such as furnace or dishwasher ?
> What about lighting circuits? A switch controls electric energy.


Furnace is no, because of where it is. Dishwasher is no because it’s direct wired, I think it would change if you switched it. The dishwasher must be ground fault protected if it’s within 6 ft of a sink. Lighting is yes in areas requiring AFCI.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Dishwasher is a yes to both AFCI and GFCI weather it is plug in or hardwired. It is an outlet. If it is hardwired then you need a disconnect switch with in sight.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

backstay said:


> Furnace is no, because of where it is. Dishwasher is no because it’s direct wired, I think it would change if you switched it. The dishwasher must be ground fault protected if it’s within 6 ft of a sink. Lighting is yes in areas requiring AFCI.


That depends on the code cycle. 2017 requires gfci for dishwasher.. Remember a receptacle is not necessary to be an outlet

*



(D) Kitchen Dishwasher Branch Circuit. GFCI protection
shall be provided for outlets that supply dishwashers installed
in dwelling unit locations.

Click to expand...

*


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> That depends on the code cycle. 2017 requires gfci for dishwasher.. Remember a receptacle is not necessary to be an outlet


I go off 2020 code because that’s where we are. 

You would not need the disconnect in sight if the breaker is lockable.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

kb1jb1 said:


> Dishwasher is a yes to both AFCI and GFCI weather it is plug in or hardwired. It is an outlet. If it is hardwired then you need a disconnect switch with in sight.


Dishwasher is not an outlet, it is utilization equipment.

From definitions 

Switches, circuit breakers, fuseholders, receptacles, attachment plugs, and lampholders that distribute or control but do not consume electrical energy are considered devices. Devices that consume incidental amounts of electrical energy in the performance of carrying or controlling electricity—such as a switch or a receptacle with an internal pilot light or a magnetic contactor—are considered devices and not utilization equipment. Although conductors are units of the electrical system, they are not devices.

Outlet.

A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment. (CMP-1)

Utilization Equipment.


Equipment that utilizes electric energy for electronic, electromechanical, chemical, heating, lighting, or similar purposes. (CMP-1)


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

backstay said:


> Dishwasher is not an outlet, it is utilization equipment.
> 
> From definitions
> 
> Switches, circuit breakers, fuseholders, receptacles, attachment plugs, and lampholders that distribute or control but do not consume electrical energy are considered devices. Devices that consume incidental amounts of electrical energy in the performance of carrying or controlling electricity—such as a switch or a receptacle with an internal pilot light or a magnetic contactor—are considered devices and not utilization equipment. Although conductors are units of the electrical system, they are not devices.


Definition of an outlet. I do not know how to post the NEC. Here they require the dishwasher to have both AFCI and GFCI. A GFCI receptacle cannot be located under the sink adjacent to the dishwasher. It has to be readily accessible.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

kb1jb1 said:


> Definition of an outlet. I do not know how to post the NEC. Here they require the dishwasher to have both AFCI and GFCI. A GFCI receptacle cannot be located under the sink adjacent to the dishwasher. It has to be readily accessible.


Direct wired would have no outlet, then no AFCI required. I need a code reference before the inspector makes me do anything, and in Minnesota, you get a letter from the state telling you what part of the code you failed an inspection on. No letter means the inspector is fishing.

As Dennis said, a receptacle isn’t necessary for an outlet. But I have never had them say the wire nuts in the box is the point where the utilization equipment starts. I would be hard pressed to fight that one.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

I referenced the definition of an outlet as per the NEC under definitions. Then NEC 210.12.A which is quoted above to include the terms outlets or devices. NEC 210.8.D says GFCI protection for dishwasher outlets. NEC 210.12.A says AFCI protection for outlets or devices. By definition the junction box or connection box to the dishwasher is the outlet. From what I have learned the dishwasher branch circuit needs to be AFCI and you also need an accessible GFCI device for the dishwasher.

We have to keep in mind that different AHJ in the different states have their own rulings. Where I am we use third party electrical inspectors. One agency enforces the AFCI requirements while another does not enforce any AFCI. As a contractor which one would you use? The one who makes you use 10 AFCI breakers or no AFCI breakers?


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

backstay said:


> Direct wired would have no outlet, then no AFCI required. I need a code reference before the inspector makes me do anything, and in Minnesota, you get a letter from the state telling you what part of the code you failed an inspection on. No letter means the inspector is fishing.
> 
> As Dennis said, a receptacle isn’t necessary for an outlet. But I have never had them say the wire nuts in the box is the point where the utilization equipment starts. I would be hard pressed to fight that one.


I see you are from Minnesota. I just came back from a wedding there and I was very impressed with the people and the area. My niece moved there three years ago and would never move back. She loves it there.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

I don’t use GFCI receptacles in the kitchen anymore. So the dishwasher would get plugged into a normal receptacle and a dual function breaker installed.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

kb1jb1 said:


> I see you are from Minnesota. I just came back from a wedding there and I was very impressed with the people and the area. My niece moved there three years ago and would never move back. She loves it there.


Minnesota is flat prairie in the south, moving north it’s hardwood forests and up north it’s mixed deciduous and pine forest. Lots of diversity across the state.


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## HertzHound (Jan 22, 2019)

kb1jb1 said:


> I referenced the definition of an outlet as per the NEC under definitions. Then NEC 210.12.A which is quoted above to include the terms outlets or devices. NEC 210.8.D says GFCI protection for dishwasher outlets. NEC 210.12.A says AFCI protection for outlets or devices. By definition the junction box or connection box to the dishwasher is the outlet. From what I have learned the dishwasher branch circuit needs to be AFCI and you also need an accessible GFCI device for the dishwasher.
> 
> We have to keep in mind that different AHJ in the different states have their own rulings. Where I am we use third party electrical inspectors. One agency enforces the AFCI requirements while another does not enforce any AFCI. As a contractor which one would you use? The one who makes you use 10 AFCI breakers or no AFCI breakers?


That’s how it is here in NJ also. Smoke detectors are outlets, lights are outlets, all need AFCI. So floor heat would also need it.
The one difference is we have a state amendment that strikes out kitchens and laundry areas for arc fault requirements. And since 210-12(A) doesn’t list bathrooms, then the floor heat wouldn’t require AFCI in those three rooms. That’s how I read it anyhow. I don’t know if an AHJ could say the reasoning is for arcing appliances such as hair dryers, blenders, washing machines, and still require AFCI for the lighting and floor heat? I would imagine for the most part, that the lighting is already AFCI protected, because nobody is going to bother with separate lighting circuits for those areas.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

HertzHound said:


> *And since 210-12(A) doesn’t list bathrooms, then the floor heat wouldn’t require AFCI in those three rooms. That’s how I read it anyhow. *


Me too...


backstay said:


> 210.12(A) Dwelling Units.
> All 120-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere branch circuits supplying outlets or devices installed in *dwelling unit kitchens, family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms, parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sunrooms, recreation rooms, closets, hallways, laundry areas, or similar rooms or areas* shall be protected by any of the means described in 210.12(A)(1) through (6)


Fairly specific list there ... if they meant bathrooms, they'd have listed it.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

splatz said:


> Me too...
> 
> Fairly specific list there ... if they meant bathrooms, they'd have listed it.


True but op never stated bathroom. Obviously if the floor heat is in a bathroom then it is not required to ge afci however I have not seen a floor system that didn't have a gfci protected t-stat


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

BTW @WronGun - is this floor heat 120V?


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

backstay said:


> I don’t use GFCI receptacles in the kitchen anymore. So the dishwasher would get plugged into a normal receptacle and a dual function breaker installed.


What do you use? Just dual function breakers? I always thought if I used AFCI breakers feeding GFCI receptacles and had a problem I would al least know if I was chasing a ground fault or an arc fault.

Edit: I just re-read the post and you clearly said dual function breaker, my bad. Do you ever have an issue trying to trouble shoot an arc vs ground fault?


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

yankeejoe1141 said:


> What do you use? Just dual function breakers? I always thought if I used AFCI breakers feeding GFCI receptacles and had a problem I would al least know if I was chasing a ground fault or an arc fault.
> 
> Edit: I just re-read the post and you clearly said dual function breaker, my bad. Do you ever have an issue trying to trouble shoot an arc vs ground fault?


A dual function breaker is cheaper than a AFCI breaker and a GFCI receptacle. The newest versions have diagnostic lights to aid in troubleshooting. I use DP AFCI breakers with a 14/3 home run in residential because that’s cheaper than two SP AFCI breakers and two home runs. Less labor too.


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## mrcreatine4 (Apr 11, 2013)

WronGun said:


> I’ve done a ton of these this year with a standard breaker and a gfci thermostat.
> 
> This was the first one I failed because this setup wasn’t on a AFCI breaker.
> 
> ...


I would say depending on where the heated floor is located bathroom no garage no anywhere else in the house yes sorry


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

Dennis Alwon said:


> True but op never stated bathroom. Obviously if the floor heat is in a bathroom then it is not required to ge afci however I have not seen a floor system that didn't have a gfci protected t-stat


It’s a bathroom. 


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

splatz said:


> BTW @WronGun - is this floor heat 120V?


Yes 120v


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## mrcreatine4 (Apr 11, 2013)

If it's in the bathroom it does not need arcfault protection. Arc fault's are not required for bathroom lighting ,garage lighting or mechanical room lighting, sounds like he was having a bad day in my opinion


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

mrcreatine4 said:


> If it's in the bathroom it does not need arcfault protection. Arc fault's are not required for bathroom lighting ,garage lighting or mechanical room lighting, sounds like he was having a bad day in my opinion


Is this stated on an exception 


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

WronGun said:


> Is this stated on an exception
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Why would it be in the exception? 210.12 does not mention bathrooms and it never has so afci is not required in bathrooms


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Why would it be in the exception? 210.12 does not mention bathrooms and it never has so afci is not required in bathrooms


This is the same inspector who failed 4 bathrooms for having the gfci receptacle just under 36” From the tub wall. I also can’t find a code stating that the gfci receptacle has to be at least 36” from tub/shower wall.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

WronGun said:


> This is the same inspector who failed 4 bathrooms for having the gfci receptacle just under 36” From the tub wall. I also can’t find a code stating that the gfci receptacle has to be at least 36” from tub/shower wall.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


New to the 2020



> 406.9(C) Bathtub and Shower Space.
> 
> Receptacles shall not be instal⁠led within a zone measured 900 mm (3 ft) horizontally and 2.5 m (8 ft) vertically from the top of the bathtub rim or shower stall threshold. The identified zone is all-encompassing and shall include the space directly over the tub or shower stall.
> Exception:
> ...


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## VELOCI3 (Aug 15, 2019)

kb1jb1 said:


> Definition of an outlet. I do not know how to post the NEC. Here they require the dishwasher to have both AFCI and GFCI. A GFCI receptacle cannot be located under the sink adjacent to the dishwasher. It has to be readily accessible.











NEC 2017. It would depend upon the AHJ’s interpretation of “remove obstacles”. Either way I always fault on the side of the most literal interpretation. Also, as only a few states have adopted the 2020 cycle I use the whatever cycle the AHJ is on. Going 2020 early has downsides and costs associated with either going beyond and/or AHJ conflicts. 

I pay for a site visit from the AHJ when there are questions or borderline situations. This way there are no surprises on inspection day. 


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

backstay said:


> Inspector is correct if it’s a 20 amp or less circuit and in the areas needing AFCI protection.
> 
> (A) Dwelling Units.
> 
> ...


Where does it say bathroom


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

Dennis Alwon said:


> New to the 2020


Some of these bathrooms are so small the outlet would be right over the toilet, this code is plain stupid.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

WronGun said:


> Some of these bathrooms are so small the outlet would be right over the toilet, this code is plain stupid.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Well, there is an exception for the small bathrooms basically saying as far away as you can get it.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

VELOCI3 said:


> NEC 2017. It would depend upon the AHJ’s interpretation of “remove obstacles”. Either way I always fault on the side of the most literal interpretation. Also, as only a few states have adopted the 2020 cycle I use the whatever cycle the AHJ is on. Going 2020 early has downsides and costs associated with either going beyond and/or AHJ conflicts.
> 
> I pay for a site visit from the AHJ when there are questions or borderline situations. This way there are no surprises on inspection day.
> 
> ...


Thank you for posting the NEC definition of readily accessible. Can you post their definition of outlet. How does one post from the NEC?


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Where does it say bathroom


He hadn’t said it was in a bathroom at that point in the thread.




kb1jb1 said:


> Thank you for posting the NEC definition of readily accessible. Can you post their definition of outlet. How does one post from the NEC?


I have NFPA Link. It’s a yearly subscription for $100.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

backstay said:


> He hadn’t said it was in a bathroom at that point in the thread.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So you can save, print, and copy? I use to have a copy of the NEC on the tablet but I can't buy it anymore. I guess online then.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

kb1jb1 said:


> So you can save, print, and copy? I use to have a copy of the NEC on the tablet but I can't buy it anymore. I guess online then.


yes, copy selected text, save it, paste it, or copy it. For me it works most of the time. You need cell service to look stuff up.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

backstay said:


> yes, copy selected text, save it, paste it, or copy it. For me it works most of the time. You need cell service to look stuff up.


You can also work offline if you choose. Unless you have done it before it is tricky to figure out but I can actually use the 2020 offline if there isn't a network to connect to.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

WronGun said:


> I’ve done a ton of these this year with a standard breaker and a gfci thermostat.
> 
> This was the first one I failed because this setup wasn’t on a AFCI breaker.
> 
> ...


Because I haven't had enough coffee yet, and maybe this was covered by someone already but:



https://www.mass.gov/doc/527-cmr-12-massachusetts-electrical-code-amendments/download



I believe MA wants AFCI protection on everything. Scroll down to 210.12(A)

I have a heated floor as part of a bath remodel that states not to install on a AFCI protected circuit, so now what do you do? We're still on 2017, so that's not an issue.


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## VELOCI3 (Aug 15, 2019)

kb1jb1 said:


> Thank you for posting the NEC definition of readily accessible. Can you post their definition of outlet. How does one post from the NEC?


The NEC 2017 is in the apple App Store. I just screen cap


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## VELOCI3 (Aug 15, 2019)

kb1jb1 said:


> Thank you for posting the NEC definition of readily accessible. Can you post their definition of outlet. How does one post from the NEC?













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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> You can also work offline if you choose. Unless you have done it before it is tricky to figure out but I can actually use the 2020 offline if there isn't a network to connect to.


I did not know that, thank you Dennis!


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

Dennis Alwon said:


> You can also work offline if you choose. Unless you have done it before it is tricky to figure out but I can actually use the 2020 offline if there isn't a network to connect to.


When I was on the trial version it never worked for me, I selected the 2020 NEC for offline use, I thought it was going to download, then I turned off my cell signal just to try it out but it always brought me to the sign in page and said “not connected” or something like that.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

yankeejoe1141 said:


> When I was on the trial version it never worked for me, I selected the 2020 NEC for offline use, I thought it was going to download, then I turned off my cell signal just to try it out but it always brought me to the sign in page and said “not connected” or something like that.


I tried it and it worked. I disconnected my wifi at home and was still able to use it. It is not a true download otherwise you can send it to others. 

I will try it when I am not signed in before I disconnect my wifi


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

You are correct. It appears you must sign on first before you can use it. The sign on lasts all day so if you sign on first then go somewhere you still should have access


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I tried it and it worked. I disconnected my wifi at home and was still able to use it. It is not a true download otherwise you can send it to others.
> 
> I will try it when I am not signed in before I disconnect my wifi


I don’t understand though, if it’s not downloaded onto your device, and your device can't send or receive a signal, how does it work under those conditions?


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

yankeejoe1141 said:


> I don’t understand though, if it’s not downloaded onto your device, and your device can't send or receive a signal, how does it work under those conditions?


I don't know. I think it is held in some temp file. Or maybe it can be copied but then you have to give someone your password.. bad idea....


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

nrp3 said:


> Because I haven't had enough coffee yet, and maybe this was covered by someone already but:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I just got off the phone with inspector. 

I’m reading 2020 NEC 210.12A it clearly lists all the rooms they are required in. He states otherwise “all rooms” They could be reading Mass amendments, Im looking for my copy so I can’t confirm yet.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

MA amendment 

210.12(A). Revise the parent text to read as follows:

527 CMR: BOARD OF FIRE PREVENTION REGULATIONS
All 120-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere branch circuits supplying outlets or devices installed in dwelling units shall be protected by any of the means described in 210.12(A)(1) through (A)(6)


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

WronGun said:


> MA amendment
> 
> 210.12(A). Revise the parent text to read as follows:
> 
> ...


Wow, so everything in MA is arc fault.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I can hardly contain my excitement....


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

yankeejoe1141 said:


> Wow, so everything in MA is arc fault.


Yes everything….


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