# Induction lighting to replace HID



## Lighting Retro

I've got an interesting project I wanted to share with you guys, as I'm pretty impressed with the technology I'm seeing out there. We get calls every week now on a new company in China selling LED's and the American counterparts hocking them. Everything from HID replacements to Fluorescent Tube replacements. 

Be careful, as there are tons of issues with that product out there. We won't put in anything that isn't backed by the manufacturer, so that eliminates most LED products right away. It's coming, but by all accounts, most of the product is not mature enough yet to be reliable on a large scale or in challenging environments. 

We are dealing with a manufacturing facility that has around 300+ 250W HID fixtures mounted in a wash down sanitary environment. The lamps are horizontal, and the fixture is a Rig a Light, and it looks similar in nature to a gas station canopy light. All fixtures are sealed to the ceiling to prevent any moisture from getting on top of them to spur bacteria growth. (Food manufacturing)

info on induction

We are faced with either removing the entire fixture for this client, scraping the old sealant off of the stainless steel ceiling, replace the fixture with an energy efficient option, reseal around every fixture, etc. OR

we can retrofit them. 

We were approached by a company that manufactures and backs induction lighting. They will take that fixture (Bought on their own dime), create a retrofit kit for it with an induction system, and re-UL certify the fixture against failure. 










Why induction? Much higher CRI, and not as sensitive to cold. A 250 W HID lamp uses close to 290Watts with ballast, and the comparable induction will run about 120W. Running 24/6, that is a massive savings. They don't have to remove the fixtures. They remain in place, and we will be able to purchase retro kits to make a speedy upgrade. (Less downtime since they operate such long hours) Induction is also backed to last 100,000 thousand hours compared to the standard horizontal HID mount 10,000, so the customer saves big time on relamping cycles. 

I'll be placing samples in a few weeks in the environment, and am looking forward to seeing results first hand. I'll grab pictures.

Has anyone dealt with induction yet? It's a bit pricey, but for 100k hours of operation, it's worth a look. LED in white only lasts about 50,000 hours, so it's hard to make a business case for it yet. By the way, it's Fulham backing the product.

they also make induction wallpacks, some high bay stuff I don't care for yet, and it appears that CFL replacements are on the way.


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## Bob Badger

Lighting Retro said:


> so that eliminates most LED products right away. It's coming, but by all accounts, most of the product is not mature enough yet to be reliable on a large scale



It will be fun to find out, we have been contracted to replace 7000+ fluorescent fixtures with LED fixtures in a 10 story office building.

Only time will tell how this works out.:blink:


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## Lighting Retro

Bob Badger said:


> It will be fun to find out, we have been contracted to replace 7000+ fluorescent fixtures with LED fixtures in a 10 story office building.
> 
> Only time will tell how this works out.:blink:


Are they 2x4 troffers with LED tubes? I'd be curious if they are using indirect light and how many tubes if so. The reflector kits do no good with LED, as the LED's are only on one side of the tubes and you can't take advantage of the 360 degree light given off of fluorescent tubes. Also be curious to know wattage on those. We've seen so little wattage difference, and life on better T8 lamps of 42,000 hours, that is makes no sense to go LED. 



Wow, I'm really surprised by that. Someone is "going green" to the nth degree. Maybe there is an incentive in place. Hope it goes well, but love to hear more about it. That's a sweet project. :thumbsup:


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## Bob Badger

Lighting Retro said:


> Are they 2x4 troffers with LED tubes? I'd be curious if they are using indirect light and how many tubes if so. The reflector kits do no good with LED, as the LED's are only on one side of the tubes and you can't take advantage of the 360 degree light given off of fluorescent tubes. Also be curious to know wattage on those. We've seen so little wattage difference, and life on better T8 lamps of 42,000 hours, that is makes no sense to go LED.
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, I'm really surprised by that. Someone is "going green" to the nth degree. Maybe there is an incentive in place. Hope it goes well, but love to hear more about it. That's a sweet project. :thumbsup:



I do not know all the details, I had to swing by the site the other day and add a dimmer to the one office that had already been converted for customer evaluation.

The office had four 2' x 2' fluorescents that where entirely removed and trashed, four 2' x 2' LED drop ins where put in there place. most of the 2' x 2' is just metal, with a 10" or 12" square milk white lenses in the center.

They are very bright, brighter then the lights they replaced that was why I was sent to install the dimmer. The fixture had a set of 0 to 10 volt terminals that can be connected to a lutron dimmer wired class 2. 

I have no idea how this will turn out, the fixtures look expensive and have a mighty impressive heat sink / cooling fins on the back which suggest to me that they waste power.



> That's a sweet project. :thumbsup:


It is, I am glad the boss was able to land it, but I doubt I will be involved in it.


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## B4T

Bob Badger said:


> It is, I am glad the boss was able to land it, but I doubt I will be involved in it.


Bob.. how big is your shop?? That is a  load of fixtures to retrofit 

What type of jobs are usually assigned to you?


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## Bob Badger

Black4Truck said:


> Bob.. how big is your shop?? That is a  load of fixtures to retrofit


Just to be clear it's not _my_ shop, I am just a worker.

But the company has at least a couple hundred employees and offices in MA, RI and CT.

The construction division builds retail large and small, hotels, light industrial, schools, etc.




> What type of jobs are usually assigned to you?


I am in the 'special projects' division and that can range from the most basic quick repairs to the very unusual. Right now I am installing 800 and 400 amp voltage regulators. It would be easy if not for the fact there is no space, the grocery store is open for business and I can only shut the power down for short periods of time. In a couple of weeks I will be running a grid tied photo voltaic system that I had a major hand in designing. This will be my third PV install for them.

Sorry for the thread jack.


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## user4818

Bob Badger said:


> I am in the 'special projects' division and that can range from the most basic quick repairs to the very unusual. Right now I am installing 800 and 400 amp voltage regulators. It would be easy if not for the fact there is no space, the grocery store is open for business and I can only shut the power down for short periods of time. In a couple of weeks I will be running a grid tied photo voltaic system that I had a major hand in designing. This will be my third PV install for them.


:notworthy:


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## B4T

That sounds like the "swat team" of the electrical field. :thumbup:

It is good that you will never be bored and that brain has to be constantly crunching the numbers to make the job work. :thumbsup:


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## Bob Badger

Black4Truck said:


> It is good that you will never be bored and that brain has to be constantly crunching the numbers to make the job work. :thumbsup:


Sometimes it feels like the brain is what is being crunched.

I just had to buy these two books to help me out with some of the PV design work.



















But it can be interesting.


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## Lighting Retro

Bob Badger said:


> Sometimes it feels like the brain is what is being crunched.
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> I just had to buy these two books to help me out with some of the PV design work.
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> But it can be interesting.


Good stuff. We see going there eventually, but have not pursued as of yet. The LED can put out some great light, but they do generate some heat for sure. 

The fins you see on the back are a good thing. LED's need to be designed as a system in order to dissipate the heat. It's part of the reason retrofitting existing fixtures with LED is not a great idea with most products. It simply is not designed for it, and they prematurely fail. Good to hear someone taking the plunge for 7,000 of them. Love to hear how that one goes.


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## B4T

You just ruined the myth that Algebra is never used in the real world and is only there to make HS freshman year miserable :laughing:


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## Lighting Retro

I'm curious to know if the guys who provide the fixtures are the makers of EPAD LED. They are supposed to have some great stuff coming, but we haven't had the right application yet to try it out.


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## Bob Badger

Black4Truck said:


> You just ruined the myth that Algebra is never used in the real world and is only there to make HS freshman year miserable :laughing:


I made it to 45 years old without seeming to need it, suddenly that changed.:laughing:


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## user4818

Bob Badger said:


> I made it to 45 years old without seeming to need it, suddenly that changed.:laughing:


Wow, you're an old geezer.


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## Jmy

*LED & Induction*

Hello,
Definitely be leary of these Asian LED manufacturers.
Have you consider US LED manufacturers such as Gardco and Beta for exterior units? - the quality is outstanding and their LED rated life is 100,000 hours. Some are even rated at 150,000 hours.
Pricier because it is US made, but a reputable manufacturer.
Is the lamp included in with your induction retrofit? Although the life is long, the lamp cost is over $300. I proposed using an induction for replacement of a 150W metal halide and found with the cost of the fixtures and lamp, the payback was not good. Your retrofit may be a better deal. Just make sure the whole fixture is UL listed and not just the retrofit kit.


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## Lighting Retro

Jmy said:


> Hello,
> Definitely be leary of these Asian LED manufacturers.
> Have you consider US LED manufacturers such as Gardco and Beta for exterior units? - the quality is outstanding and their LED rated life is 100,000 hours. Some are even rated at 150,000 hours.
> Pricier because it is US made, but a reputable manufacturer.
> Is the lamp included in with your induction retrofit? Although the life is long, the lamp cost is over $300. I proposed using an induction for replacement of a 150W metal halide and found with the cost of the fixtures and lamp, the payback was not good. Your retrofit may be a better deal. Just make sure the whole fixture is UL listed and not just the retrofit kit.


Yes, the whole fixture will be re UL listed. Very important indeed. 

On the LED's, LED's last 100k hours if they are in their natural color. When they are treated to put out white light they typically last 50k hours. They may go longer, but the light output is supposed to diminish. None of the reputable LED companies out there are claiming 100k hours from what I have seen, much less 150k hours. 

We've typically seen the induction come in at less than LED btw, so it's been hard to justify the price difference. However, I was just informed by our induction company that even though the lamps last 100k plus hours, the ballast/generator is probably going to last 50k. Even our rep at Fulham was unaware of that, so there's a nugget for you. :thumbsup:


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## Eco Parking Lights

*Induction/LED*

This is my first time visiting Electrician Talk. Our company manufactures Induction and LED fixtures area and parking applications. We compare each every day for our customers and help them make informed decisions. 

I am really interested in many of the well thought comments on this site.

We have stanardized on North American technologies for our lamps and ballasts in both Induction and LED. Most of the time we are using Sylvania as their longevity and real life application is strong for both Induction and LED. All of our products using the Sylvania Systems carry a 5 year parts and LABOR warranty (backed by Sylvania and our company). Product costs in our offering for Indcution and LED range from $ 300 - $ 1,200

As a manufacturer we frequently analyze different components (many of them Asian). We continue to see problems in quality and the support very rarely pans out. The temptation is there, because of price and claims, but be ware. There are many risks, including patent infringement (especially in the induction arena).

In summary - for area lighting, most of our customers start out thinking they want LED. Most end up using Induction. We provide a great LED product using Sylvania LED's and Drivers, but the cost is usually double. We can provide the required IESNA lighting levels for most applicactions under 25' using induction. Strong light levels, High CRI and several available color temps. 

In the end we suggest LED for applications over 25' (ECO LED) and Induction (ECO Parking Lights) for applications under 25'. That will change over the next 5 years as LED's standardize (optically, they rock!!).

Thanks for letting me chime in.

Steve L.


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## kbsparky

I am always intrigued by some of the developments in new technologies and lighting efficiency. 

We are designing the lighting for a new warehouse, and were considering using the linear T5 fluorescents, with motion sensors to limit energy consumption. 

Are the induction lights suitable for this type of application? I figure that LEDs would not have a problem with several on/off operations throughout the day, and acknowledge that this may shorten the lamp life of the T5s somewhat.

The main problem here is initial cost, and since many companies are operating on a tight budget, convincing them to bear higher up front costs can be a real issue in today's economic climate. It was a struggle to even get them to agree to the motion sensor idea so you can ascertain what I'm dealing with here.


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## Eco Parking Lights

*Reply to KB Sparky*

There are some Warehouse applications where Induction Fixtures are starting to be utilized. We get this question quite frequently. 

An induction lamp is a flourescent lamp (actually a T17) and its efficiency is very similiar to that of the T5's and T8's. The difference, as you may know is that there are no wear points associated with the lamp (no electrodes or filaments) with induction. That is why we see such a strong need for them in the parking industry, especially garages where the ramps actually move quite a bit through vibration. This has a tendancy to unseat the T8/T5's, not to mention that the fixtures take a heck of a beating.

In Warehouse applications, you really must have the correct owner to consider Induction or LED. Some factors that must play: It must be extremely difficult or expensive to get to the fixtures to change the lamps, possibly a safety hazard, and a customer that cares about the environmental impact of the lamp changes. Some of these are intangible benefits that are difficult to value. 

Another consideration (our company is big on getting this across early in the decision making process). The new induction lamps and LED should provide a cleaner brighter white light, but when considering the amount of light required at the floor or on the product in a Warehouse you may struggle to get the required footcandles. Induction (using Sylvania or Phillips) technology tops out at 165 Watts. That is a big differnce from the typical 400 watt or 1000 watt lamps utilized in most Warehouse applications. That being said, there are many applications where the 150/165 watt induction will replace the 400 watt MH just fine.

In the end, it usally comes down to payback and at $ 350 - $ 600 per Induction fixture, that payback is usually to long, especially on a retrofit application where you are removing the existing fixture - But if you have the correct customer and application Induction rocks, I know for a fact that when applied properly the Sylvania Induction (Icetron) systems can go the distance of 100,000 hours with minimal depreciation and yes they can be turned on/off with motion sensors. Sylvania recommends 15 minute on/off time, but they can also be quickly cycled in emergencies.

Thanks for listening!!


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## Lighting Retro

Good stuff, thanks.


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## LGLS

A segment of our town retained the original incandescent streetlights for historic purposes, everywhere else in the township went modern in the 70's with HID streetlighting.

Between the failing ballasts, lamps, mercury disposal mandates, start capacitors, and now, apparently the new energy-saving electronic ballasts that are hypersensitive to vibration, power surges, electrical storms the town streetlighter tells me it costs in labor and material way more to maintain so-called energy-saving luminaires than incandescents "waste" in energy.

Makes sense.

A 250-watt floodlight in my backyard costs 20 bucks (with lamp) and 4 hours costs 12 cents per night.

1st year cost = 64 bucks 
2nd year cost = 44 bucks total 108.00
3rd year cost = 44 bucks total 152.00
4th year cost = 44 bucks total 196.00
5th year cost = 44 bucks total 240.00
6th year cost = 44 bucks total 284.00
7th year cost = 44 bucks total 328.00

A decent, reliable 35 watt HPS wallpack costs 250 bucks and 4 hours costs 2 cents per night.

1st year cost = 258.00
2nd year cost = 7.30 total 265.00
3rd year cost = 7.30 total 272.00
4th year cost = 7.30 total 280.00
5th year cost = 7.30 total 287.20
6th year cost = 7.30 total 294.50
7th year cost = 7.30 total 301.80

It's not until year 7 I begin to see the "payback." Now who is going to assure me that a wallpack's lamp, capacitor, ballast, and starter board is not going to fail within 7 years, thereby wiping out any savings following the 7th year in use?


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## Lighting Retro

And that's not factoring in relamp cycle labor costs either. Of course, I never have an incandescent last 7 years either, but if you have to use a bucket truck twice vs. just once with the other fixture, whichever one it may be, you can absolutely show a business case for replacement. As we know, no one rolls a bucket truck or lift very cheap. 

If you go induction or LED over a HID, CFL or incandescent fixture, I would be sure there is a factory warranty for at least five years that covers some labor cost in the event of failure. Any other option, and you have a scenario where the client or contractor assumes all of the risk. Most payback scenarios come into play for facilities that operate at least 5 days a week and 9+ hours per day. If you operate less than that, it can be difficult to show a decent ROI. 24-36 months is ideal. Anything beyond that it's uncommon to find someone ready to pull the trigger. 

Although, we are doing a school district coming up, and due to low annual operating hours and an artificially low Kwh rate of $0.06 for schools in OK, the payback is over 7 years. There are some major improvements included and some new lights as well, but stil, it is not common for us to see 7+ years. 

I only mention this since your short operating hours in a residential scenario may not always be a valid commercial scenario. Induction or LED in residential never makes financial sense from an ROI perspective unless you just HAVE to be green.


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## LGLS

(Lighting Retro)And that's not factoring in relamp cycle labor costs either.

*I was figuring both would last 7 years minimum, the HPS probably longer.*

Of course, I never have an incandescent last 7 years either, but if you have to use a bucket truck twice vs. just once with the other fixture, whichever one it may be, you can absolutely show a business case for replacement. As we know, no one rolls a bucket truck or lift very cheap. 

*True, but in the case of streetlighting or in the case where a problem with any HID type fixture's problem is anything other than the actual lamp, an electrician is required. Instead of a handyman who "maintains" plus... most high-output incandescents are 130 v or could be, and after 4 hours a night are still good. Point is, with an incandescent, if it;s out it the lamp... if it's HID we need an electrician to determine why. *


If you go induction or LED over a HID, CFL or incandescent fixture, I would be sure there is a factory warranty for at least five years that covers some labor cost in the event of failure. Any other option, and you have a scenario where the client or contractor assumes all of the risk. Most payback scenarios come into play for facilities that operate at least 5 days a week and 9+ hours per day. If you operate less than that, it can be difficult to show a decent ROI. 24-36 months is ideal. Anything beyond that it's uncommon to find someone ready to pull the trigger. 

*And with good reason, but I'll bet that's not clear in the sales pitch is it?*

Although, we are doing a school district coming up, and due to low annual operating hours and an artificially low Kwh rate of $0.06 for schools in OK, the payback is over 7 years. There are some major improvements included and some new lights as well, but stil, it is not common for us to see 7+ years. 

I only mention this since your short operating hours in a residential scenario may not always be a valid commercial scenario. Induction or LED in residential never makes financial sense from an ROI perspective unless you just HAVE to be green.[/quote]

*Honestly, I think it makes sense never. What's sold is lower daily operating costs. What's diminished is the true cost of maintaining. Incandescent lamps are dirt cheap. So are the fixtures. Anyone can relamp / maintain them.*


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## Old Spark

Thanks for the primer on induction lighting. It is something I had not heard of. We've been installing 320 to 400 watt MH lighting on canopies and light poles at gas stations for a long time and the cost of operating that much lighting has prompted the owners to want to do something to reduce their electric bill. We have just started installing LED lights. Actually only two sites that I know of in the Sacramento Calif. area. One I know is thrilled with the reduction of watts used and the nice white light the LED produces. Now I have to rethink whether to promote LED or induction.
David


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## Lighting Retro

> Honestly, I think it makes sense never. What's sold is lower daily operating costs. What's diminished is the true cost of maintaining. Incandescent lamps are dirt cheap. So are the fixtures. Anyone can relamp / maintain them.


Actually, it almost always makes sense in a commercial environment. That's why they are banning incandescent in entire countries and states. 90% of the energy in those lamps goes to heat, not light. 

Compare a 2 Lamp 2x4 troffer with (2) T8 lamps and electronic ballast at about 60 Watts to a 60 Watt incandescent light bulb. There is no comparison in energy consumption and lumens per watt. 

Unfortunately, although they have been reliable for 100+ years, there is just a better product now. They make self ballasted lamps for several applications like CFLs and induction lamps, so the concern you bring up isn't a huge deal in residential. 

For commercial it doesn't apply since incandescent doesn't put out the required light levels. You can't have dealership parking lot lights running incandescent lamps. You won't see anything. [/end rant]:thumbsup:


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## Lighting Retro

David Channell said:


> Thanks for the primer on induction lighting. It is something I had not heard of. We've been installing 320 to 400 watt MH lighting on canopies and light poles at gas stations for a long time and the cost of operating that much lighting has prompted the owners to want to do something to reduce their electric bill. We have just started installing LED lights. Actually only two sites that I know of in the Sacramento Calif. area. One I know is thrilled with the reduction of watts used and the nice white light the LED produces. Now I have to rethink whether to promote LED or induction.
> David


We received our first retrofit fixture with induction from Fulham that previously had a 250W MH lamp. The induction lamp is 120W. Now with ballast, the MH fixture uses about 295 watts, and the induction is at 120W. Tremendous savings, and you save mega buck on relamp cycles. The lamp is projected to last 100k hours and the ballast about 50,000 hours. Even if you run 24/7 at about 7,000 hours a year, look how long that lasts! 

MH is rated to last up to 24k hours max, but with many less expensive lamps that last less. They also lose a tremendous amount of lumens over the life of the lamp, whereas fluorescent T8, T5, and hybrid induction now maintain 95% of lumens over the life of the lamp. Huge difference in CRI (Color Rendering Index) as well, so overall a tremendous replacement product although more pricey up front.


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## Mike_586

Black4Truck said:


> Bob.. how big is your shop?? That is a  load of fixtures to retrofit
> 
> What type of jobs are usually assigned to you?


7,000 is a lot of fixtures. 

I did a job that lasted... I can't remember now (though it seems like a month or two) with a couple other guys doing 3 or 4 thousand fixtures in a school. It was very lucrative and I generally made 2x to 3x my normal rate. Only time I'd ever done piece work. The money was great but at the end of it I never wanted to see another #31 marrette or another 347V ballast...

...oh yeah, I changed every single one of those effing' ballasts live and hated it, but that's how things were done back then.

A friend of mine had a job with the city requiring 30,000 fixtures retrofitted across the region over the course of a year and I don't think he's ever had more than 6 guys working steady.


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## LGLS

(Lighting Retro)And that's not factoring in relamp cycle labor costs either. Of course, I never have an incandescent last 7 years either, but if you have to use a bucket truck twice vs. just once with the other fixture, whichever one it may be, you can absolutely show a business case for replacement. As we know, no one rolls a bucket truck or lift very cheap. 

*I agree, but the town streetlight maintainer is rolling every day no matter. No light at an incandescent - relamp. No light at a HPS - 1/2 hour minimum to diagnose and repair. *

If you go induction or LED over a HID, CFL or incandescent fixture, I would be sure there is a factory warranty for at least five years that covers some labor cost in the event of failure. Any other option, and you have a scenario where the client or contractor assumes all of the risk. Most payback scenarios come into play for facilities that operate at least 5 days a week and 9+ hours per day. If you operate less than that, it can be difficult to show a decent ROI. 24-36 months is ideal. Anything beyond that it's uncommon to find someone ready to pull the trigger. 

Although, we are doing a school district coming up, and due to low annual operating hours and an artificially low Kwh rate of $0.06 for schools in OK, the payback is over 7 years. There are some major improvements included and some new lights as well, but stil, it is not common for us to see 7+ years. 

I only mention this since your short operating hours in a residential scenario may not always be a valid commercial scenario. Induction or LED in residential never makes financial sense from an ROI perspective unless you just HAVE to be green.


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## LGLS

(Lighting Retro)Actually, it almost always makes sense in a commercial environment. That's why they are banning incandescent in entire countries and states. 90% of the energy in those lamps goes to heat, not light. 

*But there's more to it than just Kwh consumed, including laws being passed in exchange for donations to the correct political charity.*

*So, it's "greener" to use HID in some store... based solely on annual Kwh consumed, but it doesn't really consider the cost to manufacture, the energy needed to manufacture, the enviromental destruction that occurs "over there, somewhere other than here" nor the unseen subsidies from our tax dollars to produce and provide rebates. Not to mention future disposal costs or enviromental destruction from mercury-laden waste lamps or "disposable" printed-circuit electronic ballasts.*

Compare a 2 Lamp 2x4 troffer with (2) T8 lamps and electronic ballast at about 60 Watts to a 60 Watt incandescent light bulb. There is no comparison in energy consumption and lumens per watt. 

*Agreed. After 50 years I'd have 16 burned out lamps of glass and tungsten. What will I havce after 50 years of troffers? Where does/will all that nasty mercury go?*

Unfortunately, although they have been reliable for 100+ years, there is just a better product now. They make self ballasted lamps for several applications like CFLs and induction lamps, so the concern you bring up isn't a huge deal in residential. 

*You're not making a case here - now the CFLs get tossed along with their electronic ballasts and plastic and lead and solder and... geez... *

*What would you rather buried in your backyard? *

For commercial it doesn't apply since incandescent doesn't put out the required light levels. You can't have dealership parking lot lights running incandescent lamps. You won't see anything. [/end rant]:thumbsup:

*Ever been to Broadway?*

*How about 5th Ave in Manhattan? The Museum of Natural History is floodlit from across 5th Ave, approx 200' away with weatherproof incandescent theatrical spotlights mounted atop streetlight poles and it looks fine. They tried MH, MV HPS and the results were hedious. *

*I've noticed some "greenies" with CFLs in their crystal chandilers. I'm sure you can imagine how horrible it looks.*


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## Lighting Retro

If you are more concerned with the environment, you will definitely be a fan of LED. However, to keep using incandescent lamps means using more coal to fire power plants. I suppose the argument can go both ways, but apparently the governing bodies have worked out that comparison and incenting new technology over building more power plants. 

But hey, we just put in the stuff and dispose of what needs to be disposed of properly.... There is a whole industry that revolves around energy efficient fixtures, mercury and non mercury types, and it makes sense to be involved. I personally don't care for the look for most CFL's, but I do like the new T8's over T12's. I like the high bays over the HID's. Induction is growing on me, and I'm sure LED will in time as well. If you limit yourself to only incandescent, I think you may end up doing yourself and your client a disservice. 

A customer we will do work for in LA is going to be able to retrofit their ENTIRE high rise building with new lamps and ballasts and have it paid for with the local incentive program. When you add up the cost of maintenance that would likely be required over a period of a couple of years vs. all new lamps and ballasts and lower energy consumption, it's a win win for all parties. And of course all lamps and ballasts are recycled, so there isn't a measurable environmental impact.


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## LGLS

(Lighting Retro)If you are more concerned with the environment, you will definitely be a fan of LED. However, to keep using incandescent lamps means using more coal to fire power plants. I suppose the argument can go both ways, but apparently the governing bodies have worked out that comparison and incenting new technology over building more power plants. 

*And I disagree with the governing bodies - as lighting accounts for at MOST 10% of a residence's electrical consumption and even less for commercial when you factor in motors, and A/C, and elevators, not to mention electrically driven industrial machines or computers, servers, etc. Seems the focus is on lighting lighting lighting as if that switch on the wall was more wasteful than the 30 ton condensor on the roof...
*

But hey, we just put in the stuff and dispose of what needs to be disposed of properly.... There is a whole industry that revolves around energy efficient fixtures, mercury and non mercury types, and it makes sense to be involved. I personally don't care for the look for most CFL's, but I do like the new T8's over T12's. I like the high bays over the HID's. Induction is growing on me, and I'm sure LED will in time as well. If you limit yourself to only incandescent, I think you may end up doing yourself and your client a disservice. 

A customer we will do work for in LA is going to be able to retrofit their ENTIRE high rise building with new lamps and ballasts and have it paid for with the local incentive program. When you add up the cost of maintenance that would likely be required over a period of a couple of years vs. all new lamps and ballasts and lower energy consumption, it's a win win for all parties. And of course all lamps and ballasts are recycled, so there isn't a measurable environmental impact.

*I doubt there'll be any winnings for those who foot the incentive bills.*


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## Lighting Retro

Actually there are dramatic winnings. For example where I am located at in TX: they were going to build several new power plants to supply power to a growing population. However, if all use of energy become more efficient by "x" %, there would be no need to have additional power plants for years. 

You are correct about residential in lighting. Your average number is correct, and it is of minimal benefit to home owners to look at other options. However, I deal in the commercial and industrial sector, and it is a different story. There are buildings we go into that are primarily warehouse with HID lighting, and their bill is 75%+ lighting related. Cutting that in half makes a substantial difference, and that is why there are utility incentives in TX that incent companies to move to energy efficient options. Locally they can get up to $175 per Kw demand reduced and also $0.06 per Kwh saved. It adds up. I don't do residential, but I agree in that application it is of minor benefit. ESPECIALLY since home owners do not dispose of CFL's properly by and large.


----------



## Old Spark

Hey! guys, I have a good reason for home owners to go LED, Christmas. Have you heard of the $3000 to $5000 electric bills for some of these guys who go crazy doing Christmas Lights. No only will LED Christmas lights save a lot on their electric bill, you can plug end to end about 25 strings of lights instead of 3. Also my personal experience is, the lights I have been buying from Walmart or Home Depot only last about 2 years. I'm told that these LED will last at least 5 years. That will pay for the extra cost of buying LED.
David
PS, you guys who install Christmas Lights, your going to make the job a lot easier and I like the colors better too.


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## Mr. Sparkle

Hey all I know is I went overboard during an earth day sale at big orange 2 years ago and swapped out 12 R30's, 11 R20's, and about 20 or so other bulbs in my house for CFL's and I still have yet yo see a significant difference in my electric bill. Oh, and I've replaced at least 5 of them already....so much fore 7 year bulbs, PT Barnum once said......


----------



## Lighting Retro

The funny thing about fluorescent technology is that it is really designed to be used for longer on/off cycles than we use at home. 12+ hours per cycle is ideal. Well we all know that doesn't happen at home. We flick them on and off all the time, and they simply do not last. 

And as I think someone either mentioned in this thread or another, lighting only represents about 10% of a residential bill. You will rarely see a noticeable difference by replacing lamps. AC and Heating represent the biggest national avg of about 50%. Then you have appliances, TV's, etc. 

I think the 7 year warranty, 5 yr warranty, or even 3 year warranty is the biggest joke in the business on CFL's. I usually leave a partial case behind if we ever put them in, as I don't expect them to last in most applications like the linear lamps do.


----------



## Mr. Sparkle

Lighting Retro said:


> I usually leave a partial case behind if we ever put them in, as I don't expect them to last in most applications like the linear lamps do.


I have every single bulbs packaging, don't think for a second that I paid for replacing any of the ones that went bad...they go out, I put it in the package and my next trip to big orange it comes with me. :thumbsup:

Actually I am thinking of shipping all the R30's back to Philips just because I don't like how they dim.....fully bright the color shade is fine, it goes out the window once you dim it down...it looks like a scary scene in a movie...like the lighting they would use for a haunted mental hospital or something.


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## energysmartin

May I tell you that I am enriched with this wonderful information. Nice info.


----------



## tim5544

I am interested in finding out more on the induction lights that you are using. Do you have any before and after pictures yet? 

I have been looking to start selling some energy efficient exterior lighting like induction or LED. I hear that LED is much more expensive than induction and right now not as efficient.


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## DipsyDoodleDandy

*Try this*

Try these. We've installed about 100 of them in 3 buildings. ROI was 2-4yrs. Customers was extremely pleased with type of light and maintainance cost went to nil

http://www.fullspectrumsolutions.com/commercial_lighting_fixtures_35_ctg.htm


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## DipsyDoodleDandy

*More*

Here are the induction type we've used as well. Great service and plenty of articles to sift through on site

http://www.everlastlight.com/EHB-ED-400W.html


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## Skipp

I know this is a older thread but I have to add to this. These induction lamps everyone thinks are so great. Got news for ya! A few years ago the city of El Monte, Ca. refitted hundreds of 100w DX F-can ballast HID lighting with those induction lamps. The ballast were pulled out, the molex connector cut out, then straight wired to the line voltage. Last month the lamps have been burning out like one a day. So they hired me to re lamp. Easy enough right? Well if anyone can find a 277 volt medium base induction lamp in California you have better connections than every Electrical supply house, Lamps specialty store..etc. in the state. They are no longer available period! Now I have to buy all new f-can H-38 ballast and 100w DX lamps to return the lighting in city hall to its original set up. That just cost them over $10,000 just in ballast. The leads were cut so short I could barley get a wire nut on the lamp leads. These are recessed hid fixtures in a hard lid ceiling. Ever try to install a f-can ballast, mount, and wire up through a 6 inch access hole. With wires so short you get about 1/2 inch to work with out of the immpossible to reach j-box.
Great idea to save money and go green..right! The challenge still stands, find a 277 volt medium base induction lamp available for use in California. This green technology is just a huge waste of money and energy. Don't take my word for it, go install your induction lamps.


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## ramsy

Skipp said:


> This green technology is just a huge waste of money and energy. Don't take my word for it, go install your induction lamps.


In April, SCE's rebate-program managers were recommending a specific induction fixture with an engineered reflector. 

You will need to contact Edison for current information, but in April, SCE was not happy with inductive retrofits, publishing a 15k-hr life expectancy. The engineered reflectors may be doing something for ballast cooling, selected for a 100k-hr expected life.

Use levernuts with short pigtails:


----------



## Lighting Retro

You do know that induction lamps require a ballast right? (Unless I misread, it sounds like the old ballast was cut out, but maybe not replaced? Unlike CFL's, induction lamps are usually not self ballasted--although I have seen them) 

Most of the ballasts that are out there are universal voltage, so that should not matter any more. However, very few places stock them at all. It will generally be an order product, so it's good you bring that up for those considering selling, installing, and maintaining that product.

These guys carry some stock. www.rtglighting.com Also, Sylvania stocks them, but you might be challenged to find a distributor with stock. The internet is your friend in this department, as most local supply houses won't have any idea what you are talking about.


----------



## Skipp

Lighting Retro said:


> You do know that induction lamps require a ballast right? (Unless I misread, it sounds like the old ballast was cut out, but maybe not replaced? Unlike CFL's, induction lamps are usually not self ballasted--although I have seen them)
> 
> Most of the ballasts that are out there are universal voltage, so that should not matter any more. However, very few places stock them at all. It will generally be an order product, so it's good you bring that up for those considering selling, installing, and maintaining that product.
> 
> These guys carry some stock. www.rtglighting.com Also, Sylvania stocks them, but you might be challenged to find a distributor with stock. The internet is your friend in this department, as most local supply houses won't have any idea what you are talking about.


 No ballast on these lamps. Maybe I am thinking of something different. It sure looked like a induction lamp. I wish I had a picture. It has a coil that wraps around the sealed tube. There is no contacts or filimants anywhere on the sealed tube. The tube is about 1/2 in dia. shaped like a "U" and and about 4-5 in. long. The base is standard medium and has some type of built in circuitry between the screw base and the tube. But it is enclosed in a plastic cover. The only marking on the body of lamp says "JX" and 23watt. I was told JX is the China manufactor that discontiued them. No replacements available I was told by 4 different wholesale houses and 1 shop that only sells lamps of every type available.
Now I just learned H-38 F-can ballast are banned in Califronia. So now I have to replace with the MP Ballast that uses E17 100 watt MH lamps. Oh yea MH fixtures and lamps all have to be Pulse start MH. Another California war on light bulbs. Street lights are being replaced with LED in long beach. They now need to return those to HPS. Drivers are complaining left and right about glare blinding them from the street lighting.


----------



## Lighting Retro

I could see the potential issue with LED street lights. They are strong and focused light and could very easily blind you. I have an LED pool light, and was working in the empty pool last night, and could not see anything near the light. Very blinding. 

I have attached part of a spec sheet I think shows the exact lamp you are speaking about. That appears to be a self ballasted model. I have never used those, but I would think that if they are not very old you should be able to warranty them. We require an induction company to cover labor on their product if we quote it to up to a certain amount. If they can't put their money where their mouth is, I'm not going to be their test site. 

This appears to product from:

*Robert W. Han *
National Sales Manager
North American Energy Group * |* Illuminating Results TM 
1806 Industrial Park Drive * | * Pepin, WI 54759 *|* www.naeg.com
T 715 442 3232 * |* F 715 442 3236 * | * C 517 214 3937 * | *[email protected]* |* Toll Free 866 633 0808 


I've received info from him in the past. Perhaps he can assist? Looks like RTG might also carry the same lamp--at least they look similar. If they are still available. Like you say, maybe they are discontinued. This alone should give contractors pause on buying the China product. Definitely would like to hear an update on your solution. Sounds like no fun, thanks.


----------



## Skipp

Lighting Retro said:


> I could see the potential issue with LED street lights. They are strong and focused light and could very easily blind you. I have an LED pool light, and was working in the empty pool last night, and could not see anything near the light. Very blinding.
> 
> I have attached part of a spec sheet I think shows the exact lamp you are speaking about. That appears to be a self ballasted model. I have never used those, but I would think that if they are not very old you should be able to warranty them. We require an induction company to cover labor on their product if we quote it to up to a certain amount. If they can't put their money where their mouth is, I'm not going to be their test site.
> 
> This appears to product from:
> 
> *Robert W. Han *
> National Sales Manager
> North American Energy Group *|* Illuminating Results TM
> 1806 Industrial Park Drive *| *Pepin, WI 54759 *|* www.naeg.com
> T 715 442 3232 *|* F 715 442 3236 *| *C 517 214 3937 *| *[email protected]* |* Toll Free 866 633 0808
> 
> 
> I've received info from him in the past. Perhaps he can assist? Looks like RTG might also carry the same lamp--at least they look similar. If they are still available. Like you say, maybe they are discontinued. This alone should give contractors pause on buying the China product. Definitely would like to hear an update on your solution. Sounds like no fun, thanks.


 That's the exact lamp! You figured that out with my poor discription? You know your lighting don't you? Now if you tell me that those are readily available I am going to be very careful the city don't find out. I confirmed that they are not. This is after they tried themselves to get replacments. Now I have 38 Mp f-can ballast and 50 on backorder that I'm charging them for. And then the E17 100 watt MH lamps too.


----------



## Lighting Retro

I got lucky! There aren't a whole lot of induction distributors out there, but happy to hear about results of any kind--good or bad. Most of us just don't know how they work in real applications, and 100,000 is a bold claim. My guess is that the compact induction work kind of like the CFL's in comparison to linear fluorescent-like crap. 

I don't think you have any worries about the city locating the lamps, and it sounds as even if the could, they may not want them again. The maintenance cost may very well exceed the headache and costs of maintenance. The only reason we know about them is because we show up well in search engines, and induction guys have targeted retrofitters. They are not widely distributed or available unless you go to one of those two guys I have listed. There might be others, but seriously, 2 contacts nationwide? Replacement material definitely should be a consideration in any installation. Fulham also does some induction, so they might be a resource for you. 

I have seen some pretty impressive info on Compact Metal Halides for can lights. Might be worth a peak for some of your next projects. Good luck on those short wires. Hope you don't have to wire them hot lol.


----------



## Skipp

Lighting Retro, What do you know these Pulse start Metal Halides that California now requires? What makes a PS Metal Halide different from a Metal Halide? I'm impressed with your knowlegde of lighting, I can't keep up with the technology. I had no idea that Mercury Vapor is no longer available as a new install in California. Now they are attacking Metal Halide.


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## Lighting Retro

Essentially HID fixtures are the guzzlers of the industry, so there is pressure to make them more efficient if they continue to be made. The pulse start has higher lumens per watt, so you can use a lower wattage lamp for similar results. You can replace a standard 400W Metal Halide with a 320W Pulse Start Metal Halide. They also:

have faster restrike and warmup periods
offer better color and CRI
better lumen maintenance
better cold starting
and 
last longer

Per this page...... 

I can't speak much to actual performance, as we primarily remove them in the applications we pursue.


----------



## Skipp

I hope I don't start to bother you too much. I have a few questions about other lighting topics that I would like to get your input on. If it's ok with you. It's not about Induction or HID so I don't want to hijack this thread about my other questions.


----------



## Lighting Retro

I'd throw them up on the forum and let us all have a crack at them. I find that there is certain product I can be a decent reference on, but some of these guys have touched stuff I haven't and are great resources too. Happy to assist!


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## Electric_Light

Induction is basically a VHO fluorescent lamp and as such the UV intensity per square inch of phosphor surface is very high. The lumen maintenance isn't all that great. They use amalgam to control mercury vapor pressure and they have similar warm up characteristics as amalgam CFLs. 

I posted the actual data somewhere on this board from Sylvania specs. 

According to CREE, LEDs initially depreciate through degradation of silicone plastic lens during the first phase, then the chip itself thereafter. 

http://www.cree.com/products/pdf/XLampXR-E_lumen_maintenance.pdf

Skipp, the ban on MV isn't just California. Come July 2012 and a lot of lighting products will be affected. It doesn't prohibit things per se, but the efficacy requirements are such that they effective ban many existing products. 

Incandescent, fluorescent and HIDs are all affected. This document describes the upcoming federal regulations on lighting quite well: 

http://assets.sylvania.com/assets/Documents/Prod.0bbbbb5d-fb92-4ebe-830f-621b9a13306b.pdf



Lighting Retro said:


> I could see the potential issue with LED street lights. They are strong and focused light and could very easily blind you. I have an LED pool light, and was working in the empty pool last night, and could not see anything near the light. Very blinding.


That's actually a desirable thing for street lights. They want a point source, so they can use optics to control beam distribution. Thats why HIDs are used rather than fluorescent. They look small up high, but when they're on the ground, those things are gigantic.


----------



## Skipp

Electric_Light said:


> That's actually a desirable thing for street lights. They want a point source, so they can use optics to control beam distribution. Thats why HIDs are used rather than fluorescent. They look small up high, but when they're on the ground, those things are gigantic.


 
I'll have to disagree on this one. Blinding glare in drivers face is not very desirable. If it was they would not be spending all this money to change them back to HPS. It cost them a ton of money to replace the HPS with LED. Long Beach is not a wealthy city. After several hundred complaints by citizens, Police Dept., and the city officials themselves, they have no choice.


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## Lighting Retro

agreed, you don't pull them out if they are doing the job


----------



## Eco Parking Lights

*ECO Parking Lights*

Gentlemen,

Chiming back in on Induction. I saw a thread on this site discussing issues with replacement lamps and ballasts installed in the past where there were issues and replacement ballasts could not be found at 277 volt.

At the current time ECO Parking Lights backs only Sylvania and Philips in our products whether new or retrofit. Both have been utilized with much success in the U.S. for many years. We put all Induction products by any other manufacturer in the same category as LED, with both being suspect until proven worthy. For most, this will require another 5-10 years of field use. Even then, if the lamps and ballasts are not applied properly - heat issues can dramatically decrease lamp/generator life. 

The most important factor is to work with a reputable manufacturer that can provide proof of proper heat testing and ETL/UL testing (required on retrofits as well). Require proof of successful installations throughout the years and be extremely careful when working with anything other than a Philips or Sylvania lightsource. Parts warranties (even labor warranties) are only as good as the companies that provide them.

Please feel free to call or contact us at www.ecolightingsolutions for further information regarding our U.S. made induction and LED products.

Regards,

Stephen Little


----------



## Eco Parking Lights

*ECO Lighting Solutions*

................http://www.ecoretrofitlights.com


----------



## dutchparson

Great... Interesting stuffs 
 -Vetter Electric


----------



## Electric_Light

Eco Parking Lights said:


> There are many risks, including patent infringement (especially in the induction arena).


Don't sell infringing products.
OSRAM SYLVANIA's been going after distributors who sell infringing imports and foreign manufacturers over ICETRON patents.
http://assets.sylvania.com/assets/D...2_09.9c7d7358-0a7a-4eb1-84f8-56d97b4a4977.pdf


----------



## tim5544

*self ballasted induction*

Skip- It sounds like what you are are some self-ballasted induction lamps. Based on your description I think they are made by LVD. It is a big Chinese or Taiwanese induction company. The bulbs can be ordered voltage specific for 120 or 277 volt. 

I know a couple of distributors on these bulbs if you need it. The 277 volt bulb is not something that they'd likely stock though.


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## Lighting Retro

Bob Badger said:


> It will be fun to find out, we have been contracted to replace 7000+ fluorescent fixtures with LED fixtures in a 10 story office building.
> 
> Only time will tell how this works out.:blink:


Hey, how did that project turn out? Has maintenance or warranty been an issue at all?


----------



## LightsRus

*CALiper report: Linear LED lighting to replace fluorescent*

Here is a lead in blog regarding DOE CALiper program by Jim Brodrick
http://www.lightnowblog.com/2010/07/jim-brodrick-on-caliper-round-10-testing/

and here is the round 9 report
http://apps1.eere.energy.gov/buildings/publications/pdfs/ssl/caliper_round-9_summary.pdf

Round 10 focuses on LED lighting types other than linear fluorescent replacements, however, the report does follow up on the round 9 and previous evaluations. 

It doesn't appear that linear LED is ready for prime time yet, according to DOE.

Here is the DOE solid state lighting site with all the reports.
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/buildings/ssl/reports.html


----------



## Electric_Light

LightsRus said:


> Here is a lead in blog regarding DOE CALiper program by Jim Brodrick
> http://www.lightnowblog.com/2010/07/jim-brodrick-on-caliper-round-10-testing/
> 
> and here is the round 9 report
> http://apps1.eere.energy.gov/buildings/publications/pdfs/ssl/caliper_round-9_summary.pdf
> 
> Round 10 focuses on LED lighting types other than linear fluorescent replacements, however, the report does follow up on the round 9 and previous evaluations.
> 
> It doesn't appear that linear LED is ready for prime time yet, according to DOE.
> 
> Here is the DOE solid state lighting site with all the reports.
> http://www1.eere.energy.gov/buildings/ssl/reports.html


Something to keep in mind about CALiPER is that it's a program meant for SSL products. They only have a very few discharge luminaires for comparison and they are not the best available today. In my opinion, the CALiPER makes some LED products look better, because they're doing best(LED) vs better(discharge) comparison as opposed to best vs best


----------



## LightsRus

*Re: CALiper report: Linear LED lighting to replace fluorescent*



Electric_Light said:


> Something to keep in mind about CALiPER is that it's a program meant for SSL products. They only have a very few discharge luminaires for comparison and they are not the best available today. In my opinion, the CALiPER makes some LED products look better, because they're doing best(LED) vs better(discharge) comparison as opposed to best vs best


CALiper evaluates a device (sample) by measuring its performance to its own manufacturer's specification.
Then, CALiper compares the device specification to Industry Norm for performance, and to Industry performance expectations for such a device.

CALiper doesn't itself make anything look good, bad, better or worse. Performance is left entirely to the DUT (device under test). 

I posted this information in response to the post about installing 7,000 units. I would hope the device had been qualified by the DOE CALiper program before tax dollars became a part of the experiment.


----------



## Electric_Light

LightsRus said:


> CALiper doesn't itself make anything look good, bad, better or worse. Performance is left entirely to the DUT (device under test).


Right, but CALiPER program is specifically for SOLID STATE lighting, and DOE chooses what devices to test, including the choice of discharge technology devices used as comparison. There's only a handful of discharge fixtures tested and they're not the best ones out there, so when prospective specifiers look at the data, some LED products look better than "fluorescent".


----------



## LightsRus

It seems this thread began, in part, because LEDs aren't ready. Along the way, LED T8's were mentioned, thus, I posted the CALiper test results (round-9) showing DOE's conclusion from testing that linear LED T8's cannot equally replace the fluorescent T8 in most applications. 



Electric_Light said:


> Right, but CALiPER program is specifically for SOLID STATE lighting, and DOE chooses what devices to test, including the choice of discharge technology devices used as comparison. There's only a handful of discharge fixtures tested and they're not the best ones out there, so when prospective specifiers look at the data, some LED products look better than "fluorescent".


Not clear to me what you are trying to say.

The CALiper round-9 test does show the *linear LED T8 is inferior to fluorescent*. Round-10 addresses other applications, and does state they have nothing new regarding the T8 test in round-9.

However, all that said, LED T8 look-alikes may have a place in refrigeration display cases. Here, LEDs get an instant output advantage over fluorescent at sub-zero temperatures, and, LEDs can switch immediately or be dimmed with the motion and occupancy sensors that further reduce energy consumption.


----------



## Electric_Light

LightsRus said:


> It seems this thread began, in part, because LEDs aren't ready. Along the way, LED T8's were mentioned, thus, I posted the CALiper test results (round-9) showing DOE's conclusion from testing that linear LED T8's cannot equally replace the fluorescent T8 in most applications.
> 
> 
> 
> Not clear to me what you are trying to say.
> 
> The CALiper round-9 test does show the *linear LED T8 is inferior to fluorescent*. Round-10 addresses other applications, and does state they have nothing new regarding the T8 test in round-9.
> 
> However, all that said, LED T8 look-alikes may have a place in refrigeration display cases. Here, LEDs get an instant output advantage over fluorescent at sub-zero temperatures, and, LEDs can switch immediately or be dimmed with the motion and occupancy sensors that further reduce energy consumption.


I would say the thermally managed CREE 2' x 2' LED troffer is one of the best LED systems available and it looks favorable over 2' x 4' fluorescent troffer DOE chose for comparison. It looks better if you were to do a side by side comparison on CALiPER. Search by lm/W and you'll see those. Now, this causes user to think the CREE troffer is superior to "fluorescent lighting". 

LEDs are catching on here for refrigerated display case as well. Full performance at cold temperature obviously makes them desirable for such applications. I see them pretty commonly for interior lighting for refrigerated trucks too. Those refrigerated case LED strips have temperature range in specs and they're never meant to be powered at room temperature. 

So, as I've been saying from beginning, LEDs do have places for it. Your claim I'm "anti LED" is going over board. I think you'll understand that no matter how great hybrid electric-piston gas engine technology gets, it may never be relevant to powering a med-vac chopper just as LEDs are not appropriate for street lighting, search light, sports arena lighting and the such. 

This isn't to say that technology is bad.


----------



## RIVETER

I have only installed smaller LED lamps. They put off no heat. They are 24 volt with maybe 60, or so LEDs. Why would an LED lamp have to have a heat sink to operate? Obviously they do but then where is the energy savings?


----------



## LightsRus

RIVETER said:


> I have only installed smaller LED lamps. They put off no heat. They are 24 volt with maybe 60, or so LEDs. Why would an LED lamp have to have a heat sink to operate? Obviously they do but then where is the energy savings?


LEDs have allowed misconceptions in the lighting Industry.

Those used for display and signaling devices are referred to as 5-millimeter type, which describes the diameter. They have a lead frame suspending most often a single PN junction behind an integrated focusing lens in the clear epoxy package. The photometric quantification is the candela or millicandela; this device is used to directly stimulate the retina and not illuminate an area. These LEDs usually operate on a maximum of 150 milliwatts. Today many have been replaced with SMD (surface mount device) packages, but same parts, same power in an ultra small square package.

LEDs for illumination are power or high output type, they have many PN junctions behind a protective lens cover (usually non focusing). These are usually a square ceramic package with a dome. Photometric quantification is the lumen, these devices are intended to illuminate an area, they can cause temporary blinding and pain if looking directly into the dome. Power of these LEDs may range from 1/2 watt to 5 watts.

The LEDs you describe sound like the 5-mm version, and intended for amenity or accent lighting, but not illumination. Both versions of these LEDs are applied in clusters to multiply output, and that's when heat becomes a real issue. A hundred 5-mm LEDs on a panel, driven at 200mw can actually melt down if not managed. 

LEDs have little better efficacy than some HID, so, watts in will become heat that must be managed. LEDs can improve luminaire efficacy, see this blog for a brief description http://www.lightnowblog.com/2010/07/...nd-10-testing/

You can expect to see more on this topic.


----------



## RIVETER

LightsRus said:


> LEDs have allowed misconceptions in the lighting Industry.
> 
> Those used for display and signaling devices are referred to as 5-millimeter type, which describes the diameter. They have a lead frame suspending most often a single PN junction behind an integrated focusing lens in the clear epoxy package. The photometric quantification is the candela or millicandela; this device is used to directly stimulate the retina and not illuminate an area. These LEDs usually operate on a maximum of 150 milliwatts. Today many have been replaced with SMD (surface mount device) packages, but same parts, same power in an ultra small square package.
> 
> LEDs for illumination are power or high output type, they have many PN junctions behind a protective lens cover (usually non focusing). These are usually a square ceramic package with a dome. Photometric quantification is the lumen, these devices are intended to illuminate an area, they can cause temporary blinding and pain if looking directly into the dome. Power of these LEDs may range from 1/2 watt to 5 watts.
> 
> The LEDs you describe sound like the 5-mm version, and intended for amenity or accent lighting, but not illumination. Both versions of these LEDs are applied in clusters to multiply output, and that's when heat becomes a real issue. A hundred 5-mm LEDs on a panel, driven at 200mw can actually melt down if not managed.
> 
> LEDs have little better efficacy than some HID, so, watts in will become heat that must be managed. LEDs can improve luminaire efficacy, see this blog for a brief description http://www.lightnowblog.com/2010/07/...nd-10-testing/
> 
> You can expect to see more on this topic.


In your final statement are you implying that those who buy into the LEDs want that type of light and generally are not interested in saving power?


----------



## LightsRus

RIVETER said:


> In your final statement are you implying that those who buy into the LEDs want that type of light and generally are not interested in saving power?


The LED can save power in a few ways in total system efficacy. If you read Jim Brodrick's blog on CALiper testing, he explains that LEDs have several optical advantages that if utilized, can get more light from a fixture than their bulb counterpart. Let's say that is 30%. Then maybe the LED driver can be 5% to 10% more efficient.

Given this math, for a raw example, the LED can save 35% and still provide the equivalent illumination. There are field examples with specific luminaire types showing up to 50% savings.

Obviously 50% power savings will not pay back the owner in any reasonable time. Instances where maintenance is costly are easy paybacks - examples are bucket trucks, traffic lane management, multiple men, ladders, scaffolding, customer disruption, etc.

The 'green factor' is one where they just must have it because that's the environmentally right light to have. But this is a totally unpredictable business model.

The worst reason - some over zealous sales person pitches that LEDs can save 80% on the electric bill. The buyers end up with lots less light, LEDs get a bad reputation. _ This probably happens in any Industry when new technology comes along. _ I have heard some bizarre stories used on this one, always use LM-79 IES files and do a photometric layout before committing. 

That was a long answer, but a couple of words wouldn't do it justice.


----------



## Electric_Light

LightsRus said:


> The LED can save power in a few ways in total system efficacy. If you read Jim Brodrick's blog on CALiper testing, he explains that LEDs have several optical advantages that if utilized, can get more light from a fixture than their bulb counterpart. Let's say that is 30%. Then maybe the LED driver can be 5% to 10% more efficient.


Doesn't change the fact it needs to be spec'd 1.43x so it still meets the specs @ 70% initial lumens, where less compensation is needed for lamps with depreciation factor to 85% output. 

When you claim "bulb counterpart" what are they? 105lm/W (system efficacy) CMH with narrow point source allowing precise optics? 



> Given this math, for a raw example, the LED can save 35% and still provide the equivalent illumination. There are field examples with specific luminaire types showing up to 50% savings.


Relative to? Worn out metal halide's output vs new LED's output? 
I specifically addressed the amount of compensation oversize needed in the thread I started and asked you questions which haven't answered. 

For retrofit decision making consideration, you don't compare how much you money you can can save getting a Toyota Echo/LED compared to driving a V8 GMC Suburban/1980s MH.

You compare it against Toyota Echo(contemporary discharge lamp) vs Prius Hybrid(LED), what are the efficacy differences and what are the payback period and ROI?


----------



## LightsRus

Lighting Retro said:


> Why induction? Much higher CRI, and not as sensitive to cold. A 250 W HID lamp uses close to 290Watts with ballast, and the comparable induction will run about 120W. Running 24/6, that is a massive savings. They don't have to remove the fixtures. They remain in place, and we will be able to purchase retro kits to make a speedy upgrade. (Less downtime since they operate such long hours) Induction is also backed to last 100,000 thousand hours compared to the standard horizontal HID mount 10,000, so the customer saves big time on relamping cycles.
> 
> I'll be placing samples in a few weeks in the environment, and am looking forward to seeing results first hand. I'll grab pictures.
> 
> Has anyone dealt with induction yet? It's a bit pricey, but for 100k hours of operation, it's worth a look. LED in white only lasts about 50,000 hours, so it's hard to make a business case for it yet. By the way, it's Fulham backing the product.


Due diligence is in order here. Induction lighting sales pitch is suffering a lot of what LEDs have been through. I've done some research of my own, and previous knowledge base has been reaffirmed.

As with any light source, output degradation is inevitable, and characteristics well known by the original manufacturer of the gas/glass/phosphor. Honest suppliers/packagers are showing Induction lighting as 70% lumen maintenance at 60,000 hours. You should plan on relamping far earlier than 100,000 hours. 

Induction efficacy is not much better than fluorescent, if at all. You mentioned cold operation; both of these technologies require heated gas in order to provide specification claims. 

Beware of any new or custom design making new claims of efficacy or life when they are likely driving the bulb differently to get there. Request an independent environmental lab test if the product is custom or non-standard offering.


----------



## RIVETER

How does induction illumination occur?


----------



## LightsRus

RIVETER said:


> How does induction illumination occur?


The mercury gas is ionized with RF (radio frequency), usually about 2.65 megahertz. You may be familiar with fluorescent tubes, they can be ionized when near the antenna of a powerful radio transmitter. 

Gas in a conventional fluorescent tube is ionized with actual current flow through the gas.

Both technologies are sensitive to temperature because the gas excitation energy requirement varies directly with gas temperature.

The Induction lamp driver/ballast is quite elaborate; multiple level conversions, RF power output, temperature tracking, and to be FCC approved-suppressed to not mess with nearby radios or other RF stuff.


----------



## RIVETER

Okay, LightsRus, I think I understand. Are you saying that they may not be good for a building with a radio station in/on it?


----------



## LightsRus

RIVETER said:


> Okay, LightsRus, I think I understand. Are you saying that they may not be good for a building with a radio station in/on it?


Oh not at all. The energy density per mm required to light the Induction lamp is quite high and it should not light from any other power source. 
But if you walk into the radio station and your hair stands up, that may be an issue.

The Induction driver/ballast is tested to not radiate RF energy of significant levels beyond a certain distance, that's no problem either.


----------



## Electric_Light

LightsRus said:


> Due diligence is in order here. Induction lighting sales pitch is suffering a lot of what LEDs have been through. I've done some research of my own, and previous knowledge base has been reaffirmed.
> 
> As with any light source, output degradation is inevitable, and characteristics well known by the original manufacturer of the gas/glass/phosphor. Honest suppliers/packagers are showing Induction lighting as 70% lumen maintenance at 60,000 hours. You should plan on relamping far earlier than 100,000 hours.
> 
> Induction efficacy is not much better than fluorescent, if at all. You mentioned cold operation; both of these technologies require heated gas in order to provide specification claims.
> 
> Beware of any new or custom design making new claims of efficacy or life when they are likely driving the bulb differently to get there. Request an independent environmental lab test if the product is custom or non-standard offering.


LEDs require pretty mild conditions to get 50,000 hour to 70%. It is addressed in a CREE document that increased drive current, ambient temperature and junction temperature greatly accelerates the decay process.

http://www.cree.com/products/pdf/XLampXR-E_lumen_maintenance.pdf

No, I doubt ambient within fixture stays within 25C that's needed for maintaining the 70% @ 50,000 hour rating. 

low-pressure mercury lamps using amalgam is not seriously affected by higher temperatures since it provides pressure regulation and provides near maximum output over a very wide range of ambient (inside the globe its housed in) and as high as 130F. Both induction on high power CFLs utilize amalgam technology. 

How is LEDs going to perform, or maintain the claimed depreciation curve under real world conditions experiencing high tempreatures?

We're not talking about 4' long 32W or 40W lamps, so cold is not an issue. induction and high power CFLs both have high enough energy density to stay hot enough to function properly. You'll just have to deal with 10% output immediately at startup that quickly picks up. If power goes out and comes back on, it will restart right away. 5 minute to full output from cold start, is not a big deal for street light.


----------



## LightsRus

Electric_Light said:


> LEDs require pretty mild conditions to get 50,000 hour to 70%. It is addressed in a CREE document that increased drive current, ambient temperature and junction temperature greatly accelerates the decay process.
> 
> No, I doubt ambient within fixture stays within 25C that's needed for maintaining the 70% @ 50,000 hour rating.
> 
> low-pressure mercury lamps using amalgam is not seriously affected by higher temperatures since it provides pressure regulation and provides near maximum output over a very wide range of ambient (inside the globe its housed in) and as high as 130F. Both induction on high power CFLs utilize amalgam technology.
> 
> How is LEDs going to perform, or maintain the claimed depreciation curve under real world conditions experiencing high tempreatures?
> 
> We're not talking about 4' long 32W or 40W lamps, so cold is not an issue. induction and high power CFLs both have high enough energy density to stay hot enough to function properly. You'll just have to deal with 10% output immediately at startup that quickly picks up. If power goes out and comes back on, it will restart right away. 5 minute to full output from cold start, is not a big deal for street light.


My post wasn't about LEDs or CFL or low pressure anything........

Maybe you meant to reply to some other thread?


----------



## LightsRus

Lighting Retro said:


> Why induction? Much higher CRI, and not as sensitive to cold. A 250 W HID lamp uses close to 290Watts with ballast, and the comparable induction will run about 120W. Running 24/6, that is a massive savings. They don't have to remove the fixtures. They remain in place, and we will be able to purchase retro kits to make a speedy upgrade. (Less downtime since they operate such long hours) Induction is also backed to last 100,000 thousand hours compared to the standard horizontal HID mount 10,000, so the customer saves big time on relamping cycles.


Hey Lighting Retro,

Here's a lumen maintenance chart for the Sylvania that may help determine your relamping interval. 








I've seen some claims of 5% lumen depreciation in 2,000 hours, but that apparently depends on which 2,000 hours you sample.
Here is a link to that data sheet http://ecom.mysylvania.com/miniapps/FileNet2/PIBs/FL021.pdf
Be sure to look at the temperature profile - these are not so good for cold applications.

Beware the Induction technology provides no higher efficacy than CFL or most typical fluorescent tubes. Some Induction light suppliers are using a "Pupil Lumen" multiplier to artificially inflate Induction efficacy. I don't believe Sylvania is doing this, their data all seems to be real. 
The LED industry has tried to use scotopic advantage, pupil lumens, and other approaches to sell less lumens to do the job, i.e. artificially inflating efficacy, but that hasn't worked. 
Until the IESNA recognizes these multipliers, the customer will face the liability where lighting standards are involved. This is municipal/civil engineers, parking garage owners, and others that comply with RP-8, RP-20, etc. You can sell anything to customers that merely go by visual effect or appearance, or amenity and accent lighting. But in some places, illumination standards are serious business.

Bottom line is that Induction lighting is not all it's claimed to be; efficacy and life are not practical figures the way they are being used.


----------



## Electric_Light

LightsRus said:


> Hey Lighting Retro,
> 
> Here's a lumen maintenance chart for the Sylvania that may help determine your relamping interval.
> <copyrighted image>
> 
> I've seen some claims of 5% lumen depreciation in 2,000 hours, but that apparently depends on which 2.000 hours you sample.
> Here is a link to that data sheet http://ecom.mysylvania.com/miniapps/FileNet2/PIBs/FL021.pdf
> Be sure to look at the temperature profile - these are not so good for cold applications.
> 
> Beware the Induction technology provides no higher efficacy than CFL or most typical fluorescent tubes. Some Induction light suppliers are using a "Pupil Lumen" multiplier to artificially inflate Induction efficacy. I don't believe Sylvania is doing this, their data all seems to be real.
> The LED industry has tried to use scotopic advantage, pupil lumens, and other approaches to sell less lumens to do the job, i.e. artificially inflating efficacy, but that hasn't worked.
> Until the IESNA recognizes these multipliers, the customer will face the liability where lighting standards are involved. This is municipal/civil engineers, parking garage owners, and others that comply with RP-8, RP-20, etc. You can sell anything to customers that merely go by visual effect or appearance, or amenity and accent lighting. But in some places, illumination standards are serious business.
> 
> Bottom line is that Induction lighting is not all it's claimed to be; efficacy and life are not practical figures the way they are being used.


Look at the temperature profile on that thing. It's got a very wide operating temp range with minimal light output loss. As far as phosphor degradation, keep in mind, that data sheet is from 2002. Compare against LEDs from 2002, fair game. Compare 2002 data against 2010 LEDs, not fair.

Also, do you have copyright clearance from OSI to rip things out of their datasheets and host it on your commercial site seeking to further your LED commerce?


----------



## Lighting Retro

LightsRus said:


> Hey Lighting Retro,
> 
> Here's a lumen maintenance chart for the Sylvania that may help determine your relamping interval.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've seen some claims of 5% lumen depreciation in 2,000 hours, but that apparently depends on which 2,000 hours you sample.
> Here is a link to that data sheet http://ecom.mysylvania.com/miniapps/FileNet2/PIBs/FL021.pdf
> Be sure to look at the temperature profile - these are not so good for cold applications.
> 
> Beware the Induction technology provides no higher efficacy than CFL or most typical fluorescent tubes. Some Induction light suppliers are using a "Pupil Lumen" multiplier to artificially inflate Induction efficacy. I don't believe Sylvania is doing this, their data all seems to be real.
> The LED industry has tried to use scotopic advantage, pupil lumens, and other approaches to sell less lumens to do the job, i.e. artificially inflating efficacy, but that hasn't worked.
> Until the IESNA recognizes these multipliers, the customer will face the liability where lighting standards are involved. This is municipal/civil engineers, parking garage owners, and others that comply with RP-8, RP-20, etc. You can sell anything to customers that merely go by visual effect or appearance, or amenity and accent lighting. But in some places, illumination standards are serious business.
> 
> Bottom line is that Induction lighting is not all it's claimed to be; efficacy and life are not practical figures the way they are being used.


Good stuff, thanks. 

And Electric_Light, I hardly think using commercially available material to present the ACTUAL limits of an application would be a crime. I would like to think Induction has improved since 2002, but would not really know. 

I've got a partner ready to order mass amounts of induction from a supplier in China that claims to have something on induction that the US has not seen yet. They say heat is not an issue as well, but I'm skeptical until I see it. I'm pulling for both technologies to overcome their weaknesses so that we may provide additional options for customers looking to retrofit vs. buy all new fixtures.


----------



## LightsRus

*Re: Induction replacing HID*



Lighting Retro said:


> Good stuff, thanks.
> 
> And Electric_Light, I hardly think using commercially available material to present the ACTUAL limits of an application would be a crime. I would like to think Induction has improved since 2002, but would not really know.
> 
> I've got a partner ready to order mass amounts of induction from a supplier in China that claims to have something on induction that the US has not seen yet. They say heat is not an issue as well, but I'm skeptical until I see it. I'm pulling for both technologies to overcome their weaknesses so that we may provide additional options for customers looking to retrofit vs. buy all new fixtures.


Regarding Induction lighting technology, it's been around for decades - all that's happened in last 10 years is manufacturing cost reduction.
That Sylvania bulletin is apparently the most up to date technology they have. That patent was issued Nov. 1998.

There is a newer "Electrodeless" patent issued Feb. 2003 and assigned to Matsu**ita Research and Development Laboratories. It cites specific improvements to the prior art naming Sylvania's patent. 

Even after the patent battles name a winner, the technology is still ancient by comparison. 

In looking at that technology, even the best has huge luminance variations over temperature and time. Life claims of 100,000 hours with 35% variation in luminance with temperature is of little added value in the big picture. It seems like a lot of money spent, especially when OSRAM has what they claim is the better LED technology.
Is that just ego? Makes you wonder, doesn't it.


----------



## Electric_Light

Lighting Retro said:


> Good stuff, thanks.
> 
> And Electric_Light, I hardly think using commercially available material to present the ACTUAL limits of an application would be a crime. I would like to think Induction has improved since 2002, but would not really know.


I was just saying its unfair to present one technology using latest specs against another technology using an eight year old data. If you were to use 2002 data for LEDs, it wouldn't be anywhere near as good as they're now. 



> I've got a partner ready to order mass amounts of induction from a *supplier in China *


are they even legal to sell here, as far as patent infringement issues are concerned and even if they are, do they even live up to the lumen maintenance specs of the brand name ones here? 



> that claims to have something on induction that the US has not seen yet. They say heat is not an issue as well, but I'm skeptical until I see it. I'm pulling for both technologies to overcome their weaknesses so that we may provide additional options for customers looking to retrofit vs. buy all new fixtures.


Heat does affect fluorescent, but high power CFLs and induction both use amalgam to control mercury pressure. If you look at the temperature to output graph on Sylvania's datasheet it'll give you an idea. Cold doesn't affect them as long as you get it started and the wattage is high enough to keep it within operating range.


----------



## Lighting Retro

Electric_Light said:


> I was just saying its unfair to present one technology using latest specs against another technology using an eight year old data. If you were to use 2002 data for LEDs, it wouldn't be anywhere near as good as they're now.
> 
> 
> are they even legal to sell here, as far as patent infringement issues are concerned and even if they are, do they even live up to the lumen maintenance specs of the brand name ones here?
> 
> 
> 
> Heat does affect fluorescent, but high power CFLs and induction both use amalgam to control mercury pressure. If you look at the temperature to output graph on Sylvania's datasheet it'll give you an idea. Cold doesn't affect them as long as you get it started and the wattage is high enough to keep it within operating range.


they say they have no patent issues, and what they have does not exist in the US market yet. *I'm skeptical. *

On the heat issue, I was specifically referring to the sensitivity of the generator/ballast. Right now that is a major issue when considering induction retrofitting as well as LED. These guys are saying heat dissipation is not an issue for their product.* I'm skeptical. *

Time reveals all though.


----------



## LightsRus

*Actual lumens from Induction lighting*

I am working with a potential customer that purchased an 80W self-ballasted screw-in induction light to compare with a 175W metal halide. This is among a group of lights.

The results are dimmer by visual evaluation, and quite a bit lower by the light meter.

I'm looking at the scotopic lumens and the pupil lumen tables, and don't see where replacing a 5,500K source with a 5,000K source offers any of those advantages. 

Everyone is looking to save energy. Where would someone get the information that Induction lighting has that much higher efficacy than MH? Should that 80W have been sufficient, and he got his Induction from an inferior source?


----------



## Electric_Light

LightsRus said:


> I am working with a potential customer that purchased an 80W self-ballasted screw-in induction light to compare with a 175W metal halide. This is among a group of lights.


I've never seen an 80W size, but Sylvania makes induction CFL called DURA-ONE.
http://www.sylvania.com/AboutUs/Pressxpress/Pressnews/PressArchive/2008/DuraOneExpands.htm

Efficacy is comparable to regular CFL. The real advantage is frequent cycling don't sheds away life, but if its come on at night, off in the morning application, its not much of an advantage. 

I believe they can make higher wattage induction lamp than electroded equivalent for a given physical size, but components are proprietary and expensive, so they're not catching on. There are a lot of patent issues and there are no generic system replacement components(that do not pose patent infringement issues). 




> The results are dimmer by visual evaluation, and quite a bit lower by the light meter.


Not surprising. High power CFLs are usually don't have that much better efficacy over HIDs. T8s get such a great efficacy, but they're comparatively huge and run the arc at low power. CFLs run high power density like VHO lamps, so lumen depreciation is greater and efficacy is lower (compared to pain tube fluorescent). CFLs do have better lumen maintenance than classic MH, but won't do anything drastic like replace a 175W MH with less than half the wattage. 



> Induction lighting has that much higher efficacy than MH? Should that 80W have been sufficient, and he got his Induction from an inferior source?


It doesn't.


----------



## Lighting Retro

LightsRus said:


> I am working with a potential customer that purchased an 80W self-ballasted screw-in induction light to compare with a 175W metal halide. This is among a group of lights.
> 
> The results are dimmer by visual evaluation, and quite a bit lower by the light meter.
> 
> I'm looking at the scotopic lumens and the pupil lumen tables, and don't see where replacing a 5,500K source with a 5,000K source offers any of those advantages.
> 
> Everyone is looking to save energy. Where would someone get the information that Induction lighting has that much higher efficacy than MH? Should that 80W have been sufficient, and he got his Induction from an inferior source?


The general rule of thumb that induction sales people use is about 50% of the wattage of the Metal Halide. This is a bit less than that. I've got a 120W that blows away the 250W MH in the fixture it was in, but I'm sure I'm comparing new to old too.


----------



## LightsRus

*Re: Actual lumens from Induction lighting*



Lighting Retro said:


> The general rule of thumb that induction sales people use is about 50% of the wattage of the Metal Halide. This is a bit less than that. I've got a 120W that blows away the 250W MH in the fixture it was in, but I'm sure I'm comparing new to old too.


Thanks for that. 
What kind of fixture is your lamp in? Is it ventilated?

This sample 80W Induction is 4550 lumens, 4100K CCT. 

Can you tell the lumen and CCT and any other specs for your 120W Induction?


----------



## Lighting Retro

LightsRus said:


> Thanks for that.
> What kind of fixture is your lamp in? Is it ventilated?
> 
> This sample 80W Induction is 4550 lumens, 4100K CCT.
> 
> Can you tell the lumen and CCT and any other specs for your 120W Induction?


I'd really have to dig on that one. It's not ventilated though. 

It was actually a wash down stainless steel watertight fixture in a food production environment for a location in TX. Fulham in conjunction with Regency actually bought one of these Rig a Light fixtures at a cost of about $800 (Single unit production cost) to test it in their lab to make sure it passed heat sink requirements. It failed the first test until they made a special ballast/generator cover. 

It was actually a pretty interesting process, but in order to offer a warranty of any kind, they had to make sure the fixture pass the heat tests. We did not end up getting the project, but very educational. If I can find any data, I'll post it. It's a circular 120W.


----------



## Electric_Light

45lm/W initial is horrendous. 

Sylvania Icetron was rated 70W is rated 79 lm/W and 59 lm/W @ 40,000 hrs, including ballast loss in 2002 or so. 

If you look at Icetron application guide, the lumen depreciation curve looks similar to that of a normal CFL, except that they don't burn out from electrode failure but phosphor continues to decay. It loses close to 40% by 100,000 hours, which is similar to end of life output of common MH. Perhaps that's how they chose the cut-off point. If you make 70% the cut off, the life is down to 60,000 hours. Make it 80% and its down to 20,000 hours.

Fresh 120W induction with fresh lens, blowing away 250W MH with dirty lens and due for group relamp is not a surprise.


----------



## LightsRus

*Re: Actual lumens from Induction lighting*



Lighting Retro said:


> I'd really have to dig on that one. It's not ventilated though.
> 
> It was actually a wash down stainless steel watertight fixture in a food production environment for a location in TX. Fulham in conjunction with Regency actually bought one of these Rig a Light fixtures at a cost of about $800 (Single unit production cost) to test it in their lab to make sure it passed heat sink requirements. It failed the first test until they made a special ballast/generator cover.
> 
> It was actually a pretty interesting process, but in order to offer a warranty of any kind, they had to make sure the fixture pass the heat tests. We did not end up getting the project, but very educational. If I can find any data, I'll post it. It's a circular 120W.


Yes it is an interesting process. I've done that same testing on this job to know for sure what can be done with LED or with Induction.

This particular brand of Induction can operate only up to 160F, so it gets too hot in this fixture. That may be why the output is low. 

But in my customer's case, I am not clear how the Induction at < 5000 lumens 4100K will replace the 175W MH that has 10,000 lumens and 5500K.


----------



## Lighting Retro

Doesn't sound like it will. That's like a single T5HO lamp. You'd have to have 2 in order to get what you need.


----------



## Electric_Light

LightsRus said:


> Yes it is an interesting process. I've done that same testing on this job to know for sure what can be done with LED or with Induction.
> 
> This particular brand of Induction can operate only up to 160F, so it gets too hot in this fixture. That may be why the output is low.
> 
> But in my customer's case, I am not clear how the Induction at < 5000 lumens 4100K will replace the 175W MH that has 10,000 lumens and 5500K.


Brand new 5000 lumen lamp and a lens cleaning will probably come close to matching a 175W MH that (was) 10,000 lumens when it was brand spankin' new, but depreciated to 6,000 and dirtied up lens further dropping it to 5,000. 

If the two products both put out as they say and they're both brand new, no way in hell.


----------



## nrp3

Has anyone tried the Philips 205w replacement bulb for 250w MH? They also make a, I think 330w for 400w MH replacement as well.


----------



## LightsRus

Lighting Retro said:


> It was actually a pretty interesting process, but in order to offer a warranty of any kind, they had to make sure the fixture pass the heat tests. We did not end up getting the project, but very educational. If I can find any data, I'll post it. It's a circular 120W.


My previous post on this was regarding a post top globe fixture with a low output. This is a closed 17-inch diameter globe.

Since then I've plotted temperatures for the light source, air in the globe, and the globe surface along with ambient temperature.

100,000 hour life is highly unlikely with an 80 watt self-ballasted Induction light of the Mogul base screw in type for after-market installation into a globe fixture.


----------



## Lighting Retro

nrp3 said:


> Has anyone tried the Philips 205w replacement bulb for 250w MH? They also make a, I think 330w for 400w MH replacement as well.


We've put in several 320W Pulse Start as replacements for the 400 W MH. good results. Also 205 for 250's. And 575w for 1,000 with superior results. Technology keeps getting better.


----------



## Lighting Retro

LightsRus said:


> My previous post on this was regarding a post top globe fixture with a low output. This is a closed 17-inch diameter globe.
> 
> Since then I've plotted temperatures for the light source, air in the globe, and the globe surface along with ambient temperature.
> 
> 100,000 hour life is highly unlikely with an 80 watt self-ballasted Induction light of the Mogul base screw in type for after-market installation into a globe fixture.


I don't think any screw in types I've seen project 100,000 hours. I think the longest expected life is around 60k hours. If there is heat beyond normal ranges, I would think you could expect far less than that too.


----------



## Electric_Light

Is this screw-in the type that leaves the existing ballast in place? If so, it will add power consumption further lowering its already mediocre efficacy.

If not, is this up to code? Bad things will happen when one fails and maintenance screws in a standard probe start MH into a socket fed directly from 277v power source with no ballast. If he screws in a pulse-start lamp, it simply won't light up.


----------



## LightsRus

Lighting Retro said:


> I don't think any screw in types I've seen project 100,000 hours. I think the longest expected life is around 60k hours. If there is heat beyond normal ranges, I would think you could expect far less than that too.


Unfortunately (for our customers), that magical 100,000 hour lifetime claim is associated with "Induction" and will be the killer; it will make skeptics, just as we are now.
Some will state the percentage at 60K hours, and still say it's 100K hour life.
Here is a link:
http://www.neptunlight.com/productdetails/5/64

In the 17" globe, an 80W source reaches 94C and air temp at the light is 76C with 24C ambient outside the globe. 
Even 60K hour life with periodic excursions to these temperatures requires top-grade engineered electronics; that rules out most imported product.

_Beware those specifications._


----------



## Electric_Light

LightsRus said:


> Unfortunately (for our customers), that magical 100,000 hour lifetime claim is associated with "Induction" and will be the killer; it will make skeptics, just as we are now.
> Some will state the percentage at 60K hours, and still say it's 100K hour life.
> Here is a link:
> http://www.neptunlight.com/productdetails/5/64
> 
> In the 17" globe, an 80W source reaches 94C and air temp at the light is 76C with 24C ambient outside the globe.
> Even 60K hour life with periodic excursions to these temperatures requires top-grade engineered electronics; that rules out most imported product.
> 
> _Beware those specifications._


And just what kind of ambient do you expect inside the globe with LEDs dissipating similar amount of power? (it has to considering their efficacy is rather poor)


----------



## LightsRus

Electric_Light said:


> And just what kind of ambient do you expect inside the globe with LEDs dissipating similar amount of power? (it has to considering their efficacy is rather poor)


Most LED suppliers have temperature problems inside sealed globe fixtures. They too, make unrealistic life claims. Consequently, many operate at lower power than actually necessary, and they throw in that scotopic magic to make up the difference.

LEDs and Induction require clever thermal management techniques. Actually our thermal management system operates an 80 watt light 20% cooler, and it could be adapted to Induction lighting for that globe application someday. With that, they might actually reach 100K hours.


----------



## Electric_Light

LightsRus said:


> Most LED suppliers have temperature problems inside sealed globe fixtures. They too, make unrealistic life claims. Consequently, many operate at lower power than actually necessary, and they throw in that scotopic magic to make up the difference.
> 
> LEDs and Induction require clever thermal management techniques. Actually our thermal management system operates an 80 watt light 20% cooler, and it could be adapted to Induction lighting for that globe application someday. With that, they might actually reach 100K hours.


How do you express temperature as percentage?  

You do know that 100F is not 50% of 200F and so on.


----------



## LightsRus

Electric_Light said:


> You do know that 100F is not 50% of 200F and so on.


Then I will need to be careful. :blink:


----------



## Electric_Light

LightsRus said:


> Then I will need to be careful. :blink:


So what exactly were you talking about by 20% cooler?


----------



## LightsRus

Electric_Light said:


> How do you express temperature as _percentage_?


*Definition: *
Fraction or ratio with 100 as the fixed and understood denominator.

http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/percentage.html#ixzz11ZngyvUe​
Celsius and Kelvin, dollars and cents are linear. In the context used, percentage is an offset from a value of something, which is then expressed in those same units.


----------



## Electric_Light

LightsRus said:


> *Definition: *
> Fraction or ratio with 100 as the fixed and understood denominator.
> 
> ​
> Celsius and Kelvin, dollars and cents are linear. In the context used, percentage is an offset from a value of something, which is then expressed in those same units.


Given 70 deg F 20% decrease is what, 56F? 
Given 21 deg C 20% decrease is what, 18.9C? But 56F !=18.9C, so there is a problem there.

You'll have to do everything in absolute temperature if you're going to do coolness comparison in percentage.

If it went from 90C to 72C, it didn't run cooler by 20%.

345.15K/363.15K, so more like 5% cooler.


----------



## LightsRus

Electric_Light said:


> Given 70 deg F 20% decrease is what, 56F?
> Given 21 deg C 20% decrease is what, 18.9C? But 56F !=18.9C, so there is a problem there.
> 
> You'll have to do everything in absolute temperature if you're going to do coolness comparison in percentage.
> 
> If it went from 90C to 72C, it didn't run cooler by 20%.
> 
> 345.15K/363.15K, so more like 5% cooler.


You are correct about absolute temperature. However, you came up with the math that would yield 75C; i.e. 94C x 0.80 = ?

Why do you keep referring to Fahrenheit? The example you gave is really out there.


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## Electric_Light

LightsRus said:


> You are correct about absolute temperature. However, you came up with the math that would yield 75C; i.e. 94C x 0.80 = ?
> 
> Why do you keep referring to Fahrenheit? The example you gave is really out there.


I used Fahrenheit and Celcius temperatures that are identical temperature in the beginning and I demonstrated that the "20%" subtracted" from shown value won't come up to the same temperature.

If you use the Rankine scale (the absolute temp for Fahrenheit system), you should still get the proper percentage calculation that matches up with Kelvin scale.


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## LightsRus

Electric_Light said:


> I used Fahrenheit and Celcius temperatures that are identical temperature in the beginning and I demonstrated that the "20%" subtracted" from shown value won't come up to the same temperature.
> 
> If you use the Rankine scale (the absolute temp for Fahrenheit system), you should still get the proper percentage calculation that matches up with Kelvin scale.


Engineers don't use Fahrenheit for that, and other reasons. When you see product data sheets using Fahrenheit, they are suspect.

Getting back to the original topic, I have confirmed that self-ballasted, screw-in Induction lamps are not practical at 80 watts in a sealed globe. Given the temperatures involved, a much lower wattage must be used. I have the equipment to validate an actual lamp size to meet a certain temperature requirement. However, I cannot validate the lamp life, but can determine the MTBF of those electronics at working temperatures.


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## vcrewchief

*Shatter Resistant Induction*


Has anybody ever heard of a shatter resistant induction lamp that is suitable for commercial kitchen application in an open fixture? The customer ONLY wants Metal halide (which is what we're trying to retrofit) or induction. No fluorescent tubes. 

http://www.heselectric.com <---- denver service and retrofits

also maybe a high wattage coated CFL...


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## Electric_Light

vcrewchief said:


> Has anybody ever heard of a shatter resistant induction lamp that is suitable for commercial kitchen application in an open fixture? The customer ONLY wants Metal halide (which is what we're trying to retrofit) or induction. No fluorescent tubes.
> 
> http://www.heselectric.com <---- denver service and retrofits
> 
> also maybe a high wattage coated CFL...


Induction lamp *IS* a fluorescent lamp, except electrodes on the ends. The phosphor is made of same material and and the atmosphere inside is the same, that is, it contains mercury vapor.


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## 10492

LightsRus said:


> Consequently, many operate at lower power than actually necessary,


 
I am lost on that statement. How can they operate at a lower power than necessary?



LightsRus said:


> and they throw in that scotopic magic to make up the difference.


What is scotopic magic? Can you expand on this?

I have a company sending me a photopic/scotopic meter to use for a while to take measurements of these lights I am retrofiting. I am taking for granted that what ever measurements I take, I will not understand what they mean.

Can you give me some info on what these readings might mean, and how to compare the two different lights I test to actually mean something?

Tx.


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## LightsRus

Dnkldorf said:


> I am lost on that statement. How can they operate at a lower power than necessary?
> 
> What is scotopic magic? Can you expand on this?
> 
> I have a company sending me a photopic/scotopic meter to use for a while to take measurements of these lights I am retrofiting. I am taking for granted that what ever measurements I take, I will not understand what they mean.
> 
> Can you give me some info on what these readings might mean, and how to compare the two different lights I test to actually mean something?
> 
> Tx.


The power that's "necessary" is what's required to meet the lighting requirements. If the task requires some level of footcandles in a given area, that requires a certain amount of power. The efficacy of the light source and luminaire, whatever that may be, has impact on that power level.

The following describes why they operate at lower power:

Sales resistance to new lighting technologies or some old revisited, is mostly due to cost per lumen, so the pitch has been using a scotopic multiplier to assure the customer that less can do more.

Induction lighting has gotten back into the game with the scotopic pitch first driven by the LED, and of course the silly 100,000 hour claims. (The induction pitch doesn't mention that light levels are below half for the last 5+ years while the customer is paying for electricity for the full light they aren't getting. )

Beware the scotopic pitch. The IESNA has not recognized that multiplier in any lighting standard, so if you are doing a Federal job or one requiring LEED certification, you need real lumens. IESNA has a position paper on this.

Having a scotopic light meter might by entertaining, but it cannot be used to officially sell an engineered lighting job that must meet IES standards.


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## 10492

LightsRus said:


> Induction lighting has gotten back into the game with the scotopic pitch first driven by the LED, and of course the silly 100,000 hour claims. (The induction pitch doesn't mention that light levels are below half for the last 5+ years while the customer is paying for electricity for the full light they aren't getting. )


I need to question this. 

If I assume 4300 operating hrs a yr, the 100K Hr is approx 23 yrs.

Are you saying that yrs 17-23, the induction puts out 50% less lumens than when it was put into service? If that's the downside to induction, who cares. HPS puts out 50% less lumens in just a couple yrs.

By the time yr 17 rolls around, fiber optic street lights will be the new king.

If they get 10yrs out of the light, they will be happy.


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## LightsRus

Dnkldorf said:


> I need to question this.
> 
> If I assume 4300 operating hrs a yr, the 100K Hr is approx 23 yrs.
> 
> Are you saying that yrs 17-23, the induction puts out 50% less lumens than when it was put into service? If that's the downside to induction, who cares. HPS puts out 50% less lumens in just a couple yrs.
> 
> By the time yr 17 rolls around, fiber optic street lights will be the new king.
> 
> If they get 10yrs out of the light, they will be happy.


However, everyone already understands they must replace that HPS in due time. 

The Induction myth is that it can remain in place until it stops glowing, which may be more than 100,000 hours, and rarely does anyone consider the light output for the energy dollars they are spending. Where is the bargain in that?


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## 10492

LightsRus said:


> Where is the bargain in that?


Maintenance costs

What are the change out rates on HPS and MH? every 3 yrs?

What is Induction over 15yrs?

That is the bigger savings and bargain. That is the point you sell. Not the reduction of costs on bulb use. That is peanuts on some projects.

Heck, one I am looking at, the "electrical POCO" Tap fee, is more every month than the actual usage on the fixture.


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## LightsRus

Dnkldorf said:


> Maintenance costs
> 
> What are the change out rates on HPS and MH? every 3 yrs?
> 
> What is Induction over 15yrs?
> 
> That is the bigger savings and bargain. That is the point you sell. Not the reduction of costs on bulb use. That is peanuts on some projects.
> 
> Heck, one I am looking at, the "electrical POCO" Tap fee, is more every month than the actual usage on the fixture.


I understand all those issues. 
The point was that you are providing "lighting" and not merely an electricity consumption device. 

Before you can compare maintenance, you must consider what exactly you are maintaining; is that light level, or just a glowing box? It may all come down to the caliber of customer, i.e. does the job have lighting standards, or is it residential/private consumer that really doesn't care.

The word of caution is to understand what that 100,000 claim really means. The last 40% of life will usually have unacceptable luminance, unless you oversize that lighting in the beginning. Ooops, there went the bargain.


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## 10492

No worries brother, we're on the same page.

Thanks for sharing the info. :thumbsup:

I'm googling how to use a scotopic meter, what the readings mean, and how to improve the readings.

Any info or easy links for this would be appreciated greatly.


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## LightsRus

Dnkldorf said:


> No worries brother, we're on the same page.
> 
> Thanks for sharing the info. :thumbsup:
> 
> I'm googling how to use a scotopic meter, what the readings mean, and how to improve the readings.
> 
> Any info or easy links for this would be appreciated greatly.


If anyone can provide info on Scotopic multiplier standards, we all will benefit from that. To my knowledge, it is purely arbitrary, customer to customer.

The LRC has a paper http://www.lrc.rpi.edu/programs/solidstate/assist/pdf/AR-VisualEfficacy-Jan2009.pdf on outdoor lighting visual efficacy. But they allow the multiplier only up to 0.6cd/sq meter. Above that level, scotopic doesn't help.


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## Electric_Light

Dnkldorf said:


> I need to question this.
> 
> If I assume 4300 operating hrs a yr, the 100K Hr is approx 23 yrs.
> 
> Are you saying that yrs 17-23, the induction puts out 50% less lumens than when it was put into service?


Without engineering datasheet, there's no telling. Remember LED flashlights and gimmicky China made LED "bulbs" put together with hundreds of tiny LEDs claiming "100,000 hrs +" life? 

LM-79 was established to put a reality check on LEDs used for general lighting application where the reported lumens are to be based on real life conditions (not with junction temperature of 25°C in a lab). In the absence of LM-79, suppliers were reporting whatever they felt like reporting, usually the most optimistic performance from ideal conditions and "up to 100,000+ hrs." or something to that effect.



> If that's the downside to induction, who cares. HPS puts out 50% less lumens in just a couple yrs.


You'd be pretty close for MH. Standard MH loses around 40% over lifetime. HPS, nowhere close. 20-30% depreciation over life.

LEDs and induction lamp element do not typically suffer catastrophic failures or "go out", short of mechanical damage or power supply failure. Sylvania's induction datasheet which is rather old claims 40-50% loss over the rated lifetime. 

The cutting edge T5 and T8 fluorescent lamps depreciate only in single digit percent over lifetime compared to 40% for MH. When they retrofit warehouses and such, this means that new install can start off with 60-70% of new MH fixture's output since it will more or less hold that output for the life of the lamps.

SCOTOPIC crap....
------
The scotopic multiplier varies for each source. S/P ratio can be high as 3. Higher CCTs tend to give it a higher value, but not always. 6500K fluorescent is close to 3. Classic mercury vapor is below 1. 

If S/P is 2.5 and rated photopic lumens is 1,000, scotpic would be 2500. There is an IEEE publication on this. 

Photopic lumens use established human eye sensitivity curve based on well lit areas. Scotopic uses sensitivity based on not so well lit areas, but is not recognized as an acceptable measurement for spec'ing. 

A company called Lights of America, who, in my opnion, produces mostly garbage, started publishing in scotopic when they came out with "Fluorex technology" which is basically 865 phosphor CFLs sold for outdoor lighting in residential applications.


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## cself123

Induction lighting, regarding the 100,000 hour life, this is a proven technology...most people think that induction lighting is new technology. It has been out for 20 plus years. 

The department of energy installed 36 induction fixtures for testing, at 88,000 hours, only had 3 failures, and light output had dropped less than 30%, please tell me a lighting technology that can compete?

Thousands of dollars would have been spent on lamp replacement and extra energy if HID was used in this test.

Induction is 100% the way to go, if you have the capital to purchase it off the bat, it will pay for itself.

Most return on investments for our induction jobs range from 19 months to 36 months depending on the application.

The customer then has another 7 years of manufacturers warranty protecting them against unexpected failure, how can you go wrong???


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## Electric_Light

cself123 said:


> Induction lighting, regarding the 100,000 hour life, this is a proven technology...most people think that induction lighting is new technology. It has been out for 20 plus years.
> 
> The department of energy installed 36 induction fixtures for testing, at 88,000 hours, only had 3 failures, and light output had dropped less than 30%, please tell me a lighting technology that can compete?


Can you link where you got the "lost less than 30%" I was able to locate the failure rate here:
http://www.eereblogs.energy.gov/ene...n-Old-Lighting-Technology-Made-New-Again.aspx

The site says the replacement is needed after 60 to 100k hours. 

"HID" can mean many different lamps, from probe start MH to electronically ballasted (square wave driven ~400Hz) ceramic HPS. 

OSI Icetron is rated at 70% maintenance @ 60,000 hours based on its 2004 literature. 

Replacement interval is longer on induction lamps, but efficacy, less influence to ambient temperature can be better with the electroded HID technology which shouldn't be dismissed completely in favor of induction


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## JEA926

*Induction vs. LED*

There are several problems with Induction lighting vs. LED's.

Energy savings of 50% vs. 80% in LED.

Having to replace a whole fixture, if a correct fixture (or one approved by the Manufacturer of the Induction lamp). Why throw away a perfectly good fixture. The LED's we use, up to 100' and 1200W can easily fit into the existing fixture.

Light out put loss, I haven't seen a lumen maintenance chart for Induction that is better than 70% at 60,000 hours. If you keep using them for those next 40,000 hours, you still pay full electricity for less than half the light output. 
I have asked this Induction question in other threads: "Where's the bargain?" 

Go to the photometric reports on your fixtures and in fine print, it indicates a light loss factor of .70. This is typical of all induction fixtures because of the geometry of the lamps.


LED's are directional lights, so the light is not "Lost" and is put right were it is needed.


There are a lot of sub par LED's out there too, so we only install proven American UL listed LED lamps. Cost up front is higher but payback is better over the long run.


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## Cletis

*solve*

Couldn't you just replace the bulb and ballast then for induction? I heard it's plug and play and waaay cheaper than LED to replace. In the order of $80 material for a typical 250 watt shoebox + labor of course? 

How much are gut's to replace in LED ?


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## JEA926

*LED vs. Induction*

Hi Cletis,

True, LED does cost more up front. however Induction costs more to operate in the long run, much more.

LED saves about 75%, Induction 50% in electricity. Also, all one does to retrofit is bypass ballast, remove reflector and in many cases just screw in the LED engine that is attached to a yoke. Some fixtures require a custom made plate but it attaches to the holes already available in the fixture.

And please remember that Induction probably won't work very long in a fixture, unless the manufacturer has approved their lamp for that particular fixture. And if it does start going out en mass, there went your profits since you will have to go back in and replace them for free. So if you are doing Induction retrofits, please stick with a good supplier, not the cheapest. An $80 induction lamp usually will replace a 175W HID only. 250W replacement should be quite a bit more.


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## Mr.C

I was wondering how the induction lights hold up to vibration. Along those line I know HPS seems better at handling extreme vibration vs MH, so how about it. Let's say a mercmaster induction fixture?


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## JEA926

No sure how well Induction holds up to Vibration. But LED's are oblivious to it.

I know that Fluorescent does not like vibration at all and since Induction is basically the same thing......


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