# URD in mast?



## mikewillnot (Apr 2, 2013)

150amp service, 2" rigid pipe mast, 2/0 URD from meter up through weatherhead. 
I've done this many times and it's always passed inspection. It came up in a discussion at a counter today though. Opinions?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Is the URD rated for UV exposure?


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

mikewillnot said:


> 150amp service, 2" rigid pipe mast, 2/0 URD from meter up through weatherhead.
> I've done this many times and it's always passed inspection. It came up in a discussion at a counter today though. Opinions?


I never use urd but I have a question. Sunlight resistant? You have 18 inch or longer tails sticking out of the weather head in the sunlight. (course I believe a couple of wraps of 33+ takes care of that issue also...)


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## luckylerado (Mar 19, 2010)

mikewillnot said:


> Opinions?


AHJ should not have authority over this portion of the service IMO unless there is a service disconnect accessible to the customer on the line side of the meter. Also, "URD" is not recognized by NEC.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

luckylerado said:


> AHJ should not have authority over this portion of the service IMO unless there is a service disconnect accessible to the customer on the line side of the meter. Also, "URD" is not recognized by NEC.



You'd better start writing proposals to delete a lot of Art. 230 then.


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## luckylerado (Mar 19, 2010)

480sparky said:


> You'd better start writing proposals to delete a lot of Art. 230 then.


I know. I have had this discussion before and it does not get much traction but 90.2(B) specifically excludes this very scenario from the scope of the NEC. So if the AHJ only has NEC to govern their inspections, and especially if provided by the POCO rather then the electrician, the service drop is out of bounds. 

I am not sure I would be the guy to fight something like this with an inspector but I like to argue the point. 

* 90.2 Scope*
*(B)* Not Covered
*(5)* Installations under the exclusive control of an electric utility
where such installations
a. Consist of service drops or service laterals, and associated
metering, or...


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

A lot of what guys are calling URD is also USE and RHH and XPLE. If you have that, you're good to go.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

luckylerado said:


> I know. I have had this discussion before and it does not get much traction but 90.2(B) specifically excludes this very scenario from the scope of the NEC. So if the AHJ only has NEC to govern their inspections, and especially if provided by the POCO rather then the electrician, the service drop is out of bounds.
> 
> I am not sure I would be the guy to fight something like this with an inspector but I like to argue the point.
> 
> ...


So if you get it written out of the NEC so the AHJ does not have a say in it, and the POCO comes along and says they won't accept it, what have you gained?


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## luckylerado (Mar 19, 2010)

Just pointing out what it says. FWIW


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

luckylerado said:


> Just pointing out what it says. FWIW


And what does your POCO require for masts & risers?


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## luckylerado (Mar 19, 2010)

480sparky said:


> And what does your POCO require for masts & risers?


Around here for light commercial and for residential we purchase and mount the meter enclosure and provide a raceway and they come in and run the drop wire. The POCO rep often requires larger raceways than the NEC . They will not even come out to run the wire until the service is inspected by the AHJ and approved to be energized. Come to think of it, he probably rarely even sees the drop conductors.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

luckylerado said:


> AHJ should not have authority over this portion of the service IMO unless there is a service disconnect accessible to the customer on the line side of the meter. Also, "URD" is not recognized by NEC.


The NEC starts at the "service point". Around her the service point for a residential overhead service is the load end of the utility service drop. For a commercial overhead service, the service point is the secondary terminals of the utility transformer on the pole.

The code does not tell us where the service point is. The service point is defined by the utility. Everything on the load side of that point is subject to the rules in the NEC.


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## chris.b (Jan 28, 2013)

The service wire must have the "W" in it here. Like XHHW.


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## varmit (Apr 19, 2009)

luckylerado said:


> Around here for light commercial and for residential we purchase and mount the meter enclosure and provide a raceway and they come in and run the drop wire. The POCO rep often requires larger raceways than the NEC . They will not even come out to run the wire until the service is inspected by the AHJ and approved to be energized. Come to think of it, he probably rarely even sees the drop conductors.


Underground service? This is normal most locations for the utility to install the under ground service conductors from transformer to the meter enclosure.

A "mast" usually refers to an overhead service. I have never seen any utility that installed the wire inside of the service riser (mast) on an overhead service. I am always willing to learn other methods from other locations though.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

480sparky said:


> You'd better start writing proposals to delete a lot of Art. 230 then.



Code reference :thumbsup:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

AcidTrip said:


> Code reference :thumbsup:



Ummmm. I dunno. Like Art. 230 maybe?


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

480sparky said:


> Ummmm. I dunno. Like Art. 230 maybe?



Which part? I still think URD is not code recognized unless labelled on the jacket as having a code approved insulation material.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

AcidTrip said:


> Which part? I still think URD is not code recognized unless labelled on the jacket as having a code approved insulation material.



I wasn't referencing using URD. I was referencing the local AHJ inspecting the service. See post 4.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

480sparky said:


> I wasn't referencing using URD. I was referencing the local AHJ inspecting the service. See post 4.





> AHJ should not have authority over this portion of the service IMO unless there is a service disconnect accessible to the customer on the line side of the meter. *Also, "URD" is not recognized by NEC.*



You never were specific about what you were referring to :whistling2:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

AcidTrip said:


> You never were specific about what you were referring to :whistling2:


Silly me: I quote the posts I'm referring to. I assumed that would make it obvious.

How much more specific do you need me to be?



By the way, THIS post is referring you YOUR post.... the post I'm quoting. Yes, the post that is quoted, which coincides with your post, is the one I'm referring to. I'm not referring to any _other_ posts in this thread, nor any posts in this subforum, or any other posts on this forum, nor any posts on any other forum. Any assumption on your part as to what post I'm referring to is purely coincidental and not intended to occur either by design or by accident. Your mileage may vary, batteries not included, shipping and handling extra, please allow 4-6 weeks for delivery.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

480sparky said:


> Silly me: I quote the posts I'm referring to. I assumed that would make it obvious.
> 
> How much more specific do you need me to be?
> 
> ...




But you still refuse to answer my question regarding URD. Yes I know thats not what you were referring to, but when is URD recognized?


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

InPhase277 said:


> A lot of what guys are calling URD is also USE and RHH and XPLE. If you have that, you're good to go.


After a quick look on the Southwire site, it could be done. But it would be best to have a copy of the product sheet for the inspector to show him the NEC type insulation and that it is sunlight resistant. Or better yet ask them first with documentation.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

AcidTrip said:


> But you still refuse to answer my question regarding URD. .......


I was unaware I'm required to.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

480sparky said:


> I was unaware I'm required to.



So your trolling  

In the time it took you to type all that you could have given an answer to what you already knew. :thumbsup:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

AcidTrip said:


> So your trolling
> 
> In the time it took you to type all that you could have given an answer to what you already knew. :thumbsup:



Well, YOU weren't being very specific about what you were asking. 

All you originally asked for is "Code reference".

So one might say YOU are the troll here.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

480sparky said:


> Well, YOU weren't being very specific about what you were asking.
> 
> All you originally asked for is "Code reference".
> 
> So one might say YOU are the troll here.



Id think what AHJ cover would be obvious. URD is whats obscure.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

luckylerado said:


> I know. I have had this discussion before and it does not get much traction but 90.2(B) specifically excludes this very scenario from the scope of the NEC. So if the AHJ only has NEC to govern their inspections, and especially if provided by the POCO rather then the electrician, the service drop is out of bounds.
> 
> I am not sure I would be the guy to fight something like this with an inspector but I like to argue the point.
> 
> ...


Nothing in that section excludes the riser and its conductors from the rules found in the NEC.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

All we have to go on in the NEC is T310.l04(A) through T310.104(E).

Listing specs are white book iirc

~CS~


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

true urd is not a code recognized install. Any wire used in a mast or riser install must be rated sunlight resistant.

Dual rated use wire may not be and probably is not sunlight resistant


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

varmit said:


> Underground service? This is normal most locations for the utility to install the under ground service conductors from transformer to the meter enclosure.
> 
> A "mast" usually refers to an overhead service. I have never seen any utility that installed the wire inside of the service riser (mast) on an overhead service. I am always willing to learn other methods from other locations though.


Here in Ohio , the service drop is the point of POCO's attachment to the
building. In NEC chapter 1 , service drop is vague definition , but turn
the page to "Service entrance Conductors, Overhead System" and it seems
to me that the service drop is further described. 
Based on this , I am sure to say that here in Ohio , the service
drop is what
POCO does and that's where they end and building owners resposibility
is from that point (mast weather head) on down to the meter socket
enclosure.:detective:
By the way , here in Northeast Ohio , we now have to provide service
laterals in an underground service - up POCO's pole ( if transformer is
pole mounted & not pad mounted. Pain in the ***


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

lighterup said:


> ...
> building. In NEC chapter 1 , service drop is vague definition , but turn
> the page to "Service entrance Conductors, Overhead System" and it seems
> to me that the service drop is further described.
> ...


The difference between a service drop and overhead service conductors is two things. A service drop is utility owned and not subject to the rules in the NEC and is on the line side of the service point. Service conductors, overhead, are customer owned, subject to the rules in the NEC and are on the load side of the service point.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> The difference between a service drop and overhead service conductors is two things. A service drop is utility owned and not subject to the rules in the NEC and is on the line side of the service point. Service conductors, overhead, are customer owned, subject to the rules in the NEC and are on the load side of the service point.


We agree. The service drop is POCO's and the conductors
coming from the weather head are customer owned.
There is evidently different rules in other parts of this country
(USA - not refering to Canada) where POCO is claiming the 
entire line side of the meter socket enclosure including the mast.
Not so where I work and live.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

lighterup said:


> We agree. The service drop is POCO's and the conductors
> coming from the weather head are customer owned.
> There is evidently different rules in other parts of this country
> (USA - not refering to Canada) where POCO is claiming the
> ...


The utility is the one who says where the service point is. Everything on the line side of that point is theirs and not subject to the NEC. If they want to provide and install all the way to the service disconnect they could.

That being said, I have not seen where a utility claimed anything beyond the load end of their service drop, other than the fact that they set the rules for their cash register (meter).


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> The utility is the one who says where the service point is. Everything on the line side of that point is theirs and not subject to the NEC. If they want to provide and install all the way to the service disconnect they could.
> 
> That being said, I have not seen where a utility claimed anything beyond the load end of their service drop, other than the fact that they set the rules for their cash register (meter).


This must be different in your area. I will fail an inspection from AHJ
if I do not complete the meter through the riser and leave at least 3-4'
out of the weatherhead. I am not a beginner at this or guessing. This
is how it is here in northern Ohio Akron / Canton / Cleveland / Youngstown
geographical areas.


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

lighterup said:


> This must be different in your area. I will fail an inspection from AHJ
> if I do not complete the meter through the riser and leave at least 3-4'
> out of the weatherhead. I am not a beginner at this or guessing. This
> is how it is here in northern Ohio Akron / Canton / Cleveland / Youngstown
> geographical areas.


Youngstown, Ohio? :thumbsup: Are you from around that city? 

I thought I was the only person on this site from this "great" area. :001_huh:


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

Roger123 said:


> Youngstown, Ohio? :thumbsup: Are you from around that city?
> 
> I thought I was the only person on this site from this "great" area. :001_huh:


No , I am an Ohio native and work in many areas like Trumbull, Ashtabula ,
Summit , Geauga , Lake , Cuyahoga Counties . I tend to avoid Cleveland 
unless I absolutely have to go there. (Politics is thick as molasses.)

I don't get too much of a chance to come on , but having surgery soon
and will be off for a month or so.:thumbsup:


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

lighterup said:


> This must be different in your area. I will fail an inspection from AHJ
> if I do not complete the meter through the riser and leave at least 3-4'
> out of the weatherhead. I am not a beginner at this or guessing. This
> is how it is here in northern Ohio Akron / Canton / Cleveland / Youngstown
> geographical areas.


Not different here. For the typical dwelling unit service the service point is the load end of the utility service drop. The AHJ inspects to the line end of the service conductors that are installed in the riser. ( I will assume that the service point in your area is the load end of the service drop)

That being said, if the utility wanted to define the service point as the load side of the meter they could do that. The AHJ would not have any authority to inspect anything on the line side of the service point. 

I have never seen a utility that did that....in fact for other than dwelling units the service point in this area is moving to the secondary terminals of the utility transformer for both overhead and underground installations. That makes a lot more of the installation subject to inspection by the AHJ.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

Any of the URD we can get is all cross listed out the wazoo, so it's good to go. Just double check that it is sunlight resistant and whatnot, and keep doing what you're doing.


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