# Hostess Lessons



## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

lessons learned - unfortunately i don't think that learning lessons is part of the mix; another one bites the dust and nobody learned anything - its just business as usual jmio


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

One thing I didn't like about what happened is a news interview last week with a striking worker. 

They said they didn't care about the company going under. That whom ever buys the plant will rehire them because of their special skills. 
I can see it now, new company might reopen the plant and rehire this person if they except minimum wage. 

The better interview was with a 30+ year employee. He stated that after all these years he is screwed and can never retire now.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

Human civilization is a disaster of the highest magnitude.


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

Is the Union even bringing the latest negotiation results back to the membership?


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## henderson14 (Oct 23, 2010)

There is no lesson. Hostess was doomed to fail with or without the union. There are so many other factors at play, that there is no way that simply union concessions would have "been the straw the broke the camels back." The company simply put the blame on the company because they had the opportunity to because of hard feelings. If there was no Union they still would have failed. Non-Union companies fail every day.


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

Just waiting for O to approve another "Ding dong" bailout:laughing:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

henderson14 said:


> Non-Union companies fail every day.


That is itself is certainly true but also meaningless.

There are companies that fail because of the unions as well, neither has anything to do with Hostess.


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## henderson14 (Oct 23, 2010)

BBQ said:


> That is itself is certainly true but also meaningless.
> 
> There are companies that fail because of the unions as well, neither has anything to do with Hostess.


There is no single factor that you can blame on most companies failures. Rising material costs, shipping costs, competition, lower demand, or the economy are all factors that contribute to a companies success or failure. Its ridiculous to blame it just on the unions. If that were the case, no companies that were unionized would exist at all and hostess would not have existed in the first place. 

Did the unions contribute? Yes. But they weren't the major reason of why they went out of business like they are being made out to be.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Amish Electrician said:


> 1) Sometimes Unions have unrealistic expectations;
> 
> 2) Sometimes management is unreasonable;
> 
> ...


 
got 10 minutes to read an example that addresses your queries Amish?

~CS~


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

The number one fault from what I read is mis-management, you have to think a fish stinks from the head down and company failures are no different. BUT

It also appears the management of the bakers union screwed the pooch on this one.


At critical times for firms everyone must work as a team, this looked to be Israel and Hamas going at it.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Hostess is merely ONE example in a generation of unions circling the drain

there is a lot more going on, than what the press reports from the negotiation table 

i.e.-who's gotta dog in the fight , and why is never something people DIG to find

the most prevelant example from my link>




> The UAW’s out-of-touch leadership is so punch-drunk from the 2008 collapse of the U.S. auto industry that it has lost touch not only with what is good for the American economy as a whole, but with what is good for rank-and-file _auto _workers.
> 
> Don’t take my word for it, either: in the words of Al Benchich, retired president of UAW Local 909:
> The UAW Administration Caucus is the one-party state that controls the UAW at the International level. *Every International officer is a member of the Caucus, and they surround themselves with appointed international reps that unquestioningly do their bidding*.


~CS~


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Hostess is out of business because they are in the wrong business and haven't adapted.

High carb treats are a no no on every single diet out there.

It is a bad business model.

Certainly the horrible management, the leveraged debt, the two bankruptcies, ancient plants and lack of advertising has had a detrimental effect on the companies overall health, but really it comes down to the wrong products for today's marketplace.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> Hostess is merely ONE example in a generation of unions circling the drain
> 
> there is a lot more going on, than what the press reports from the negotiation table
> 
> ...


 Union bashing again. Union or non union, hostess was circling the drain because of poor management.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

eejack said:


> Hostess is out of business because they are in the wrong business and haven't adapted.
> 
> High carb treats are a no no on every single diet out there.
> 
> ...


i'm no convinced. i bet rosie odonnel and ralphie may couldda kept the doors open


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

eejack said:


> Hostess is out of business because they are in the wrong business and haven't adapted.
> 
> High carb treats are a no no on every single diet out there.
> 
> ...


I dunno....been out shopping lately?









You ain't missing much!

Seriously though...



> *Adult Obesity Facts*
> 
> *Obesity is common, serious and costly*
> 
> ...


http://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/adult.html


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

The bankruptcy court ORDERED Hostess and the unions back to the bargaining table because Hostess had an "Unusually high management reward/bonus system during the dismemberment plan.
In other words, they have the money, upper management was being excessively greedy.
Of course it's always the unions fault. It's a popular excuse.
GM is making record profits, and still union.


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

IMO both sides behaved badly...but the Hostess management really really put the last nail in the coffin.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

icefalkon said:


> IMO both sides behaved badly...but the Hostess management really really put the last nail in the coffin.


And I said that early on in the other Hostess thread.

Management of Hostess followed the model of so many other businesses that are struggling, they did not upgrade and adapt (as eejack noted above).

Ultimately it falls on management to make it work and to keep current, unless there were union rules that stifled modernization? Which could add to the overall problem.


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## henderson14 (Oct 23, 2010)

brian john said:


> And I said that early on in the other Hostess thread.
> 
> Management of Hostess followed the model of so many other businesses that are struggling, they did not upgrade and adapt (as eejack noted above).
> 
> Ultimately it falls on management to make it work and to keep current, unless there were union rules that stifled modernization? Which could add to the overall problem.



At the same time, you can't say that management is so important that bad management can cause a massive company like that to fail, yet they can't be paid a lot of money. That is even more of a reason they make what they do. Paying an extra 100k can save a company millions. Thats why they do it. I haven't seen any evidence of poor management either. Businesses fail many times because of poor market conditions.


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## jimmy21 (Mar 31, 2012)

This hostess argument Is getting old. It's just the same tired arguments, union bashers vs people who actually look at the whole picture


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

henderson14 said:


> At the same time, you can't say that management is so important that bad management can cause a massive company like that to fail, yet they can't be paid a lot of money. That is even more of a reason they make what they do. Paying an extra 100k can save a company millions. Thats why they do it. I haven't seen any evidence of poor management either. Businesses fail many times because of poor market conditions.


Actually, you can say that. The entire idea that management is worth what they make is ridiculous.




swiped from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_pay


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Zog said:


> Just waiting for O to approve another "Ding dong" bailout:laughing:


Their working hard on that one,,Should be about $1,784,999,887,347.03.,We don't want the executives to get shortchanged:blink::laughing:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

jimmy21 said:


> This hostess argument Is getting old. It's just the same tired arguments, union bashers vs people who actually look at the whole picture


This is the worst post this year.:blink::laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

eejack said:


> Actually, you can say that. The entire idea that management is worth what they make is ridiculous.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
most folks would claim you a class warrior for draggin' out info like that eejack

and this



> These are the two main classes in society--the capitalist class and the working class. The relationship between them is based on exploitation--that is, the fact that the working class produces profits that the capitalist class appropriates.


maybe you've even keep track of growing disparity created...?



> shocking 37 million Americans live in poverty. That is 12.7 per cent of the population - the highest percentage in the developed world. They are found from the hills of Kentucky to Detroit's streets, from the Deep South of Louisiana to the heartland of Oklahoma. Each year since 2001 their number has grown.


and have some relevant statitical analysis on hand




> According to the Federal Reserve, in 1990 the richest 1 percent of America owned 40 percent of its wealth -- the greatest level of inequality among all rich nations, and the worst in U.S. history since the Roaring Twenties


perhaps even privy to some of the orginizations dedicated towards mitigating it all



> Our vision is of a global society where prosperity is better shared, where there is genuine equality of opportunity, where the power of concentrated money and corporations neither dominates the economy nor dictates the content of mass culture. We envision a society in which values, not profits alone, guide economic decisions.


perhaps this has even led you to the Executive pay cap debate...?

maybe the padigram isn't what the worker ant would subscribe to..?


> Getting fired can produce a particularly bountiful payday for a CEO, Indeed, he can ‘earn’ more in that single day, while cleaning out his desk, than an American worker earns in a lifetime of cleaning toilets. Forget the old maxim about nothing succeeding like success: Today, in the executive suite, the all-too-prevalent rule is that nothing succeeds like failure--Warren Buffet


which all begs the Q about where the Unions stand on the many proposals (Dodd Frank, PaySay, etc) that would essentially dictate legislative renumeration 


and you d*mned well know, what goes around comes around!

~CS~


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

jimmy21 said:


> This hostess argument Is getting old. It's just the same tired arguments, union bashers vs people who actually look at the whole picture


beat me, or eat me.....~CS~


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

Q.

If the Unions claim to have all the answers, why they all don't pool their funds and buy the company, and run it themselves. 

A. 

They'd have no-one to blame if it fails.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Dnkldorf said:


> Q.
> 
> If the Unions claim to have all the answers, why they all don't pool their funds and buy the company, and run it themselves.
> 
> ...


Abbott & Costello explain it all....>





 
~CS~


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Dnkldorf said:


> Q.
> 
> If the Unions claim to have all the answers, why they all don't pool their funds and buy the company, and run it themselves.
> 
> ...


If you look through similar post about companies succeeding or failing, the train of thought by some is, if a company is successful it it because of the workers, if a company fails it is strictly managements fault, when as in most things the truth lies somewhere in the middle.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

brian john said:


> If you look through similar post about companies succeeding or failing, the train of thought by some is, if a company is successful it it because of the workers, if a company fails it is strictly managements fault, when as in most things the truth lies somewhere in the middle.


Most often though, greed by someone is a major contributor.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

brian john said:


> If you look through similar post about companies succeeding or failing, the train of thought by some is, if a company is successful it it because of the workers, if a company fails it is strictly managements fault,


Boy that rings so true .........


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## henderson14 (Oct 23, 2010)

eejack said:


> Actually, you can say that. The entire idea that management is worth what they make is ridiculous.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




1. Your turning "management" into CEO. In case you havent figured it out, there is only one CEO of a company and many more managerers that are paid less.

2. Ridiculous to who? Your chart means nothing and says nothing about the fairness of pay or why they are paid more. Companies are larger now and international, so therefore the people at the top make more And not all CEO's are paid millions. Wages for workers are going down because of all the cheap illegal immigration labor and jobs going overseas. Almost anyone off the streets can do production work. Of course you didn't know any of this because you aren't really educated on the subject, so you have to pull up a chart that doesn't mean anything.

3. The pay of professional athlets and actors/singers has done the same thing. Anyone complain when the professional athlete or coach makes thousands of times more than the guy running the concessions stand or cleaning the floors?? I don't like what tom cruise makes per movie compared to the janitor. Where is the complaining there???

Don't be bitter or envious of those who make more than you. Again. YOu can't have it both ways. You can't say that one person can be responsible for the failure of an international company that makes billions, yet say they aren't worth the extra money or to be paid what a professional athlete or coach makes. They are paid based on a free market, and make progressively more as the climb the corporate ladder.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

henderson14 said:


> 1. Your turning "management" into CEO. In case you havent figured it out, there is only one CEO of a company and many more managerers that are paid less.
> 
> 2. Ridiculous to who? Your chart means nothing and says nothing about the fairness of pay or why they are paid more. Companies are larger now and international, so therefore the people at the top make more And not all CEO's are paid millions.
> 
> ...


Actually, I can say one person can be responsible for the failure of a company and say they are not worth the massive compensation they make.

If you look at the economic booms of the previous generations CEOs did not make hundreds and thousands of times more than the average worker, which is what is happening now.

That singular individual, *now*, gets compensated in different ways, most of which are tied to things like stock price. Stock prices have nothing at all to do with health of a company, they are tied into things like short term expectations.

So you have one person on top who is focused on stock value and the management team below him which is focused on what he wants. Where is the focus on the products produced and the long term health of the company?

So to address your points ...

1. The CEO is management - his compensation rises, it obviously brings up the compensation of the rest of upper management.

2. Ridiculous to any sentient being who is not in upper management, but besides that, ridiculous to the health of the company. You are looking at massive amounts of money being removed from the company - money that could be spent on R&D, engaging the workforce, promoting products.

3. Entertainers have nothing to do with this.


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## henderson14 (Oct 23, 2010)

eejack said:


> Actually, I can say one person can be responsible for the failure of a company and say they are not worth the massive compensation they make.
> 
> If you look at the economic booms of the previous generations CEOs did not make hundreds and thousands of times more than the average worker, which is what is happening now. You can't possibly compare the economy of today with other generations ago.
> 
> ...


The economic booms of previous generations had nothign to do with the globlization of companies.

Short term stock price has some to do with a companies success, but long term definitely does. So the decisions a CEO makes are long term and this aligns with the companies interest. The primary purpose of a CEO is to increase shareholder wealth. This is why the stock price matters.

The compensation of the CEO and management are all based on individual factors and market conditions.

The "massive amount of money being removed form the company" is a figment of your imagination. You have no understanding or numbers or evidence. The money a CEO makes is peanuts compared to the revenue those companies make. Spending an extra 100k can save a large company millions or billions. Seems like a good investment to me.

Entertainers and athletes DO have something to do with this. It shows the bias most people have and puts things in perspective. Professional athletes never made before what they did today, nor did actors or coaches, yet no one complains about that. You can't say a CEO makes too much but not a pro athlete or coach.

"Actually, I can say one person can be responsible for the failure of a company and say they are not worth the massive compensation they make." --I guess we can just agree to disagree on this one. It's probably one reason why you don't own a successful company worth millions.

Again. CEO's are paid what they are worth based on a free market and will never change. Your are just jealous and uneducated so you want to "bring them down to your level."

You basically have the view that there is some big conspiracy and that is why people at the top make more that you, which is sad. Don't go through life ignorant.


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## chewy (May 9, 2010)

MAKE A LIST. CHECK IT TWICE.
When preparing your invite list, double-check it to make sure you haven't inadvertently omitted anyone. Also, keep in mind that already-busy schedules get crammed during the holiday season, so send invitations out early so your party will be the first priority on everyone's agenda. Keep track of RSVPs so you'll know the head count when you plan for food and drink.


PREP THE FOOD.
Before the party, set out as much of the food as possible, so you don't have to be shuffling back and forth to the kitchen while your guests are arriving. You want to be the one who answers the door so you can greet guests, take their coats and purses, and lead them to the bar. 



DON'T PLAY THE BARTENDER.
Speaking of the bar, don't spend the whole night behind it, or you won't have any fun! So plan ahead. Set up a serve-yourself beverage station with holiday-themed galvanized buckets full of beer, white wine and soda and water bottles. Open a few bottles of red wine, as well, and set them out on the table. If you plan to serve a specific cocktail, make it in advance, and set out glasses and a full pitcher. 



MAKE INTRODUCTIONS.
Forget hokey nametags and name games. The sophisticated hostess makes it a point to introduce new and arriving guests to the rest of the group. You don't have to make an announcement as each person walks in the door ("Hey everyone, this is Doug. Doug, this is everyone!"). Instead, lead the new guest to a small group of no more than four people with whom she will have something in common. Introduce her, and then throw out an immediate topic of discussion. For example: "Sarah, Becca, this is Amanda, my friend from the gym I was telling you about who has been giving me all those tips on how to tone my abs. Amanda, I've known Sarah and Becca since I moved to the neighborhood. We jog together in the mornings." Once they are chatting, you can excuse yourself. 



GET THE PARTY STARTED
Aside from inviting guests in and getting them talking, you'll need some entertainment. What that entails is up to you. Hire a magician, rent a karaoke machine or hook up the Wii and rock out with Guitar Hero.


ACCOMMODATE EVERYONE.
Even if you are hosting a large gathering, make sure you have something that everyone will like. Serve soda, tea or coffee, and water for non-drinkers, and make sure there is something on the menu that vegetarians can enjoy. 



SET THE STAGE.
Arrange your entertainment area in a way that accommodates the agenda for the evening. For example, if you are having a sit-down dinner, you'll need a place setting for each guest. If the fare is buffet style or passed appetizers, you can group furniture into intimate clusters around your home. If you want people to dance, clear some space or set up a "stage" outside complete with white lights or even a disco ball for ambiance, and make sure the music is rockin'. 



CHECK IN WITH YOUR GUESTS.
Circulate throughout the room to see if anyone needs a drink refresher, a plate of food, or a sweet bite after dinner, and keep your eye out for solo guests to make sure they are mingling well with everyone. If someone looks lonely, swoop in and chat them up! 



MIX AND MINGLE.
Mingle with everyone. Your guests all came to see you, party girl! Don't get stuck in the corner with one group of friends all night. Make your rounds. 




GIVE A GIFT.
Give them something to commemorate the night. You don't have to go all out with party favors, but a little treat is always welcome at the end of a great night. Fill little goodie bags with hand-dipped chocolate biscotti or homemade cookies.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

chewy said:


> MAKE A LIST. CHECK IT TWICE.
> When preparing your invite list, double-check it to make sure you haven't inadvertently omitted anyone. Also, keep in mind that already-busy schedules get crammed during the holiday season, so send invitations out early so your party will be the first priority on everyone's agenda. Keep track of RSVPs so you'll know the head count when you plan for food and drink.
> 
> 
> ...













...just saying.
:laughing:


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## MollyHatchet29 (Jan 24, 2012)

Awww, Chewy.. You crack me up.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

henderson14 said:


> The economic booms of previous generations had nothign to do with the globlization of companies.


This is about the only thing you have correct and it is the crux of the problem.

Globalization is what has wrecked havoc on the American economy. Outsourcing our pollution production, our child labor, our slave labor to other countries where it is still allowed has given the management of companies the perception of gain yet destroyed their most important market.

Short term they made money. They cannot sustain it because the impoverished the very workforce they depend upon.

Short term stock prices has nothing to do with a companies health. Apple just dropped in price because their outstanding sales of the iphone 5 did not meet the unrealistic expectations of wall street. 

The massive amounts of money...okay.



> Hostess Brands, the maker of sweet snacks like Twinkies that filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection last week, will ask a bankruptcy judge today to approve a plan that will allow it to pay $1.75 million in bonuses to 19 of its executives.





> Even as it blamed unions for the bankruptcy and the 18,500 job losses that will ensue, Hostess already gave its executives pay raises earlier this year. The salary of the company’s chief executive tripled from $750,000 to roughly $2.5 million, and at least nine other executives received pay raises ranging from $90,000 to $400,000. Those raises came just months after Hostess originally filed for bankruptcy earlier this year.


The rest of your gibberish is just that. Calling me ignorant and sad is just projection on your part and show an increasing desperation to prove a point that you cannot.

Enjoy your Thanksgiving, happiness and good health for you and your family.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

henderson14 said:


> ...Your are just jealous and uneducated so you want to "bring them down to your level...."


 Nonsense.

I have no problem with high compensation for a CEO that produces exemplary results. Unfortunately, we have a long tradition in this country of awarding the office and not the results, where high management can leave a company in a substantially worse position than when they started, yet are still paid handsomely for the privilege. 

The only way that demonstrates unusual talent or education is that they've figured out how to game the system to the extent that no matter how badly they do their job, they still make a fortune, often at the expense of the middle class. That's where some of the anger comes from regarding the Hostess deal: When you're hearing that people are awarding themselves pay raises while captaining a failing company.

-John


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## henderson14 (Oct 23, 2010)

Big John said:


> Nonsense.
> 
> I have no problem with high compensation for a CEO that produces exemplary results. Unfortunately, we have a long tradition in this country of awarding the office and not the results, where high management can leave a company in a substantially worse position than when they started, yet are still paid handsomely for the privilege.
> 
> ...



Works the exact same for professional coaches, athletes, or movie directors. Are they gaming the system? You coach a team and they do horrible, the coach still gets paid millions. Where is the outrage? Maybe some people look up to CEO's (kids in college or people in corporate america), and not athletes.

FYI. Management compensation in almost all organizations is HEAVILY weighted towards performance and meeting company objectives set for them. Of course you obviously didn't know that. Thats the problem with most tradesmen commenting on grownup topics.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

henderson14 said:


> ...Thats the problem with most tradesmen commenting on grownup topics.


 You shouldn't have added it, I wasn't sure I was being trolled until the end. 

-John


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

henderson14 said:


> Thats the problem with most tradesmen commenting on grownup topics.



Are you not a tradesman?


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## MollyHatchet29 (Jan 24, 2012)

Big John said:


> You shouldn't have added it, I wasn't sure I was being trolled until the end.
> 
> -John


And...


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## henderson14 (Oct 23, 2010)

Celtic said:


> Are you not a tradesman?



I am, but will be leaving the trade soon. I just notice that the only people I hear propaganda like this from are tradesmen. I have to hear conspiracy theories every day at work and I feel stupider for even listening to some of them. They're not all like that though, just a lot of them.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

henderson14 said:


> I am, but will be leaving the trade soon.



How long have you been in the trade?
Why the change of occupation [to what]?

just curious...


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

...the average number of items in supermarket now numbers around 40,000......maybe the boys in charge at cupcake central should of been aware of this.....thier shelf space has been shrinking for decades....blaming the unions is easy..I think at the end of the day the autopsy will show us a company that failed to keep up with an ever changing market....and living off its past successes....to my brothers (Teamsters)....good luck iron horsemen...hope you find work..the IBT web links and the shortage of drivers/maintenace mechanics everywhere may bode well in your favor....Ken Hall bent over backwards to help save this ship...the bakers would have none of it...it is always easier to look for work while employed....


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

henderson14 said:


> Works the exact same for professional coaches, athletes, or movie directors. Are they gaming the system? You coach a team and they do horrible, the coach still gets paid millions. Where is the outrage? Maybe some people look up to CEO's (kids in college or people in corporate america), and not athletes.
> 
> FYI. Management compensation in almost all organizations is HEAVILY weighted towards performance and meeting company objectives set for them. Of course you obviously didn't know that. Thats the problem with most tradesmen commenting on grownup topics.


Grownup topics really?

So you are saying that your fellow tradesmen are uninformed ?Or dumb?:blink:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

HARRY304E said:


> Grownup topics really?
> 
> So you are saying that your fellow tradesmen are uninformed ?Or dumb?:blink:


Both Harry, some of the comments have been IMO, uninformed. As I stated early on, this is not a black/white issue the faults are many and fall in between management and labor, though management seems to be more at fault. 

I arrived at this reading a few articles and my main stay the WJS. So I could be wrong.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

henderson14 said:


> Thats the problem with most tradesmen commenting on grownup topics.


You are cute, kid.

Let me guess, you got some of that there college education and you come to this board thinking you are all kind of smart and schtuff. All us dirty handed worker bees just need to bow down to your superior posterior and give you the moistened puckerings one with your obvious smarts deserves.

To start off, read the second book on the shelf. You read one, we all can see that but you need to read more.

Second, experience, which you obviously don't have, would have told you to stop talking before you insulted pretty much everyone on the board.

I won't bother to mention you are surrounded by some smart fellows and gals here, and some rather talented trolls. I don't bother to mention it because you won't believe it. It takes a few years for the hubris to wear off and allow you to see the rest of the world around you.

Along those lines it takes a few years to learn to stop digging when you are already in the hole.

Again, happy turkey day, enjoy your festivities.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

brian john said:


> Both Harry, some of the comments have been IMO, uninformed. As I stated early on, this is not a black/white issue the faults are many and fall in between management and labor, though management seems to be more at fault.
> 
> I arrived at this reading a few articles and my main stay the WJS. So I could be wrong.


No one would every call you dumb BJ. Misinformed and myopic perhaps, but not dumb.

Happy and healthy holiday for you and yours.


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

and now a brief message:
*
Happy Thanksgiving Everyone!*

back our regularly scheduled bickering...lol


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

icefalkon said:


> and now a brief message:
> *
> Happy Thanksgiving Everyone!*
> 
> back our regularly scheduled bickering...lol


:thumbsup:

On it...


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

Dnkldorf said:


> Q.
> 
> If the Unions claim to have all the answers, why they all don't pool their funds and buy the company, and run it themselves.
> 
> ...


Who is saying the Unions have all the answers?
....besides you.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Celtic said:


> Who is saying the Unions have all the answers?
> ....besides you.


It has been inferred, by a few.


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

We go over this all the time...

Who has the right answer? 

No one does. 

But...unions built this country and serve the purpose of protecting the worker...

Yeah, we built America...and we do protect the worker...but unions (all unions) have to really step up the modernization and be forward thinking if they want to carry their members into the future work force. We need to stop riding on the laurels of our grandparents who are the union members who "built america"...

The problems with this company go deeper than employee's and the union. Hostess has produced a sub par product for the last decade with declining sales, lower market share, and higher executive bonus's. 

Can it be fixed? 

Probably not. Unless this was all a perfectly executed attempt to sell the company and/or get a federal bailout.


Do we care?

*Yes *because that's a lot of unemployed people when they close...or...
*No*...because they were going to close anyway as their annual sales revenues were barely enough to keep the executives happy, the bakers baking, and the lights on. Sooner or later someone would say...holy crap...is this even worth it? So the answer there is no...

Finger pointing only helps when it's being pointed at ones self.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

You are all a bunch of twinkies.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

icefalkon said:


> The problems with this company go deeper than employee's and the union. Hostess has produced a sub par product for the last decade with declining sales, lower market share, and higher executive bonus's.
> .


Only thing wrong with your post is the time frame; I think this goes back further, updating facilities, watching the market to anticipate changes in eating habits, not relying on the old products, negotiating with the unions and being open with them explaining company issues.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Hot Dogs surfing!!


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

brian john said:


> Only thing wrong with your post is the time frame; I think this goes back further, updating facilities, watching the market to anticipate changes in eating habits, not relying on the old products, negotiating with the unions and being open with them explaining company issues.


Hmm you might be right BJ...I was't delving too deeply into it...I figured 10yrs ago, they had a better product and they had a larger market share. But yes...it's 2012...so more like 20yrs ago they should have looked at what was going on around the world...

But like the saying goes...

Hindsight is always 20/20..


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## sopranocaponyc (Nov 24, 2008)

I think the companies decision to shut down couldn't of come at a worse time. With Christmas not to far away I feel for all the families that will be out of work.


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## henderson14 (Oct 23, 2010)

If you've commented on here you are obligated to read this.

It basically said that it was management and the unions fault, along with market conditions. ALso, the CEO's that were hired weren't qualified because they didn't have experience in that business. 

A quote about CEO pay. " the new CEO brought in earlier this year dropped the salaries for four top executives to $1 for the remainder of the year." The supposed raises to the CEO's didn't happen and they would have amounted to less than a million. To keep that in context, they owed billions to the pension fund alone and had 2.5 billion in sales.

http://reason.com/blog/2012/11/19/who-killed-hostess


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

sopranocaponyc said:


> I think the companies decision to shut down couldn't of come at a worse time. With Christmas not to far away I feel for all the families that will be out of work.


While the company did choose to shut down the inevitable could have been delayed (POSSIBLY?) had the union bent a bit. I have several articles about this and supposedly some of the other unions were less than happy with the bakers.


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## wwilson174 (Apr 25, 2008)

brian john said:


> It has been inferred, by a few.


You probably meant "implied" or " insinuated" ;Inference is done by the listener


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

wwilson174 said:


> You probably meant "implied" or " insinuated" ;Inference is done by the listener


THank you for the clarification.:thumbsup:


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## sparkyforlife (Sep 4, 2012)

I'm not a union guy but good riddens to the "company". I don't normally back unions but good for them on this. The execs of the company took huge pay increases knowing the company was going bust before they claimed bankruptcy. 600k to 2.5 million for the CEO and that is just the CEO! The other execs had huge increases and bonuses too.

So then they have the nerve to make the employees take a pay cut to stay in biz or threaten to shut the whole thing down?:blink:

If I was an employee I would have said "good shut it down"


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## henderson14 (Oct 23, 2010)

sparkyforlife said:


> I'm not a union guy but good riddens to the "company". I don't normally back unions but good for them on this. The execs of the company took huge pay increases knowing the company was going bust before they claimed bankruptcy. 600k to 2.5 million for the CEO and that is just the CEO! The other execs had huge increases and bonuses too.
> 
> So then they have the nerve to make the employees take a pay cut to stay in biz or threaten to shut the whole thing down?:blink:
> 
> If I was an employee I would have said "good shut it down"



"According to David A. Kaplan at _Fortune_, who wrote a lengthy and extremely fascinating look at  Hostess’ financial situation back in July, many of those raises were proposed but never actually happened. In fact, the new CEO brought in earlier this year dropped the salaries for four top executives to $1 for the remainder of the year."


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

henderson14 said:


> "According to David A. Kaplan at _Fortune_, who wrote a lengthy and extremely fascinating look at  Hostess’ financial situation back in July, many of those raises were proposed but never actually happened. In fact, the new CEO brought in earlier this year dropped the salaries for four top executives to $1 for the remainder of the year."


Please do not lets facts get in the way of anti-management hype.:laughing:


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

brian john said:


> Please do not lets facts get in the way of anti-management hype.:laughing:


While Rayburn said he was going to do this, did he?

http://www.snopes.com/politics/business/hostess.asp

Apparently, but not until the WSJ published all their raised salaries.

Funny - these exorbitant compensations are fine and dandy and completely fine, until someone shines a light on them. One also wonders why anyone would work for free? Perhaps we just change it from a salary to a bonus....


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

henderson14 said:


> If you've commented on here you are obligated to read this.


Really poorly written but otherwise unremarkable collection of other sources quotes.

I do find it interesting that all these articles mention the unfunded pension plan, but do not mention why the pension plan is unfunded.

Perhaps because the company borrowed against it for years?
Perhaps because management decided to not fulfill its obligations over the years and fund the plans?

Since you seem to like these things, here are couple more articles on the worth of your beloved executives.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/19/business/19gret.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/02/ceo-pay-worker-pay_n_1471685.html


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

eejack said:


> Since you seem to like these things, here are couple more articles on the worth of your beloved executives.


Again, if you know more than them, why aren't you buying it and running it your way?


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## jimmy21 (Mar 31, 2012)

brian john said:


> While the company did choose to shut down the inevitable could have been delayed (POSSIBLY?) had the union bent a bit. I have several articles about this and supposedly some of the other unions were less than happy with the bakers.


If one of your customers came to you and said. "I know we signed a contract for $100 per hour but times are tough. I need you to work for $50 per hour from here on out." Would you do that, so you could delay the inevitable?


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

eejack said:


> You are cute, kid.
> 
> Let me guess, you got some of that there college education and you come to this board thinking you are all kind of smart and schtuff. All us dirty handed worker bees just need to bow down to your superior posterior and give you the moistened puckerings one with your obvious smarts deserves.
> 
> ...


Eejack, I don't often agree with you but I think you hit it dead on here!:yes::yes: Hope you had a happy turkey day. As for me, I shamelessly stuffed myself!!!


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

jimmy21 said:


> If one of your customers came to you and said. "I know we signed a contract for $100 per hour but times are tough. I need you to work for $50 per hour from here on out." Would you do that, so you could delay the inevitable?


Depends, I have worked with customers in the past just as I have had customers work with me. We have several customers we negotiate work with, no bid we sit down and arrive at a price that works for both sides.

And your analogy would not be the end of my career or present job. I would rather have a little less than nothing. And as I noted the other unions agreed, it was the bakers union and their union leaders that took a hard nose stance. 

I feel the closing was inevitable, as was noted elsewhere in this thread.
I believe ultimately management is responsible, for the long term health of the company.
I believe the union concessions would have bought the company more time.


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

jimmy21 said:


> If one of your customers came to you and said. "I know we signed a contract for $100 per hour but times are tough. I need you to work for $50 per hour from here on out." Would you do that, so you could delay the inevitable?


Would the obvious answer be: 

Leave that job, and go find another one where I can make more, and let someone else work for that reduced pay?


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

To me this is all about the print, what are the facts? What do the bakers and or average workers make in these plants and what exactly are they asking for? Now what do the CEO's and leaders of this company make? If the unions make pleas for raises in compensation and or benefits for the workers whos labor earns this firm an income, then do the unions have a right to dictate or even ask for the leaders of this company to disperse their income accordingly?(I think not) yet I am sure that part of our unions responsibilities is to know what these said leaders earn when they do go to the table. From what we have seen in history we all should know that the think tanks of corporate America will not just throw in the towel unless they stand to benefit in the end! I would even suspect corporate leaders of the company have calculated how much they stand to lose or gain no matter how this affair turns out GREED for the dollar is the motivation behind this whole affair but how could workers think that its workers like them self whom are the culprits? What are the workers asking for? I only wish to earn a decent wage and or benefits for a good day of work! Dont you?


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

Brother Noah said:


> To me this is all about the print, what are the facts? What do the bakers and or average workers make in these plants and what exactly are they asking for? Now what do the CEO's and leaders of this company make? If the unions make pleas for raises in compensation and or benefits for the workers whos labor earns this firm an income, then do the unions have a right to dictate or even ask for the leaders of this company to disperse their income accordingly?(I think not) yet I am sure that part of our unions responsibilities is to know what these said leaders earn when they do go to the table. From what we have seen in history we all should know that the think tanks of corporate America will not just throw in the towel unless they stand to benefit in the end! I would even suspect corporate leaders of the company have calculated how much they stand to lose or gain no matter how this affair turns out GREED for the dollar is the motivation behind this whole affair but how could workers think that its workers like them self whom are the culprits? What are the workers asking for? I only wish to earn a decent wage and or benefits for a good day of work! Dont you?


The fact is: The company is bankrupt and 18,000 people better be looking for another job. I say fix the problem, not the blame. No matter who's at fault it'll probably still go belly up. :whistling2:


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

wendon said:


> The fact is: The company is bankrupt and 18,000 people better be looking for another job. I say fix the problem, not the blame.


Well, from the stuff I read (not just on Hostess), the bigger picture problem is we just don't have enough jobs for everyone that needs one. 

It's a problem that is not easily fixed.


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

wendon said:


> The fact is: The company is bankrupt and 18,000 people better be looking for another job. I say fix the problem, not the blame. No matter who's at fault it'll probably still go belly up. :whistling2:


Wow what a strange observation from an electrical contractor.So what is your idea to fix this problem? How many of these displace souls has your firm offered to help with a job? Yes this plant also had maintenance wiremen. The fact is corporate greed is a reason why workers for this corporation are now without a job to go to, not greed to earn a respectful income and or ask for benefits. Our society (in my opinion) has got to the point where if we the working class ask for crumbs to feed our family's for the labor that produce stock for corporations to be able to live a better life, well then we should be ashamed of our self. The nerve of those peons who work for a living to want and desire a better way of life! Look even in the unions we have some that are lazy or undesirable but we are taught to earn what you get in life and fight for our right to be represented.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

hardworkingstiff said:


> Well, from the stuff I read (not just on Hostess), the bigger picture problem is we just don't have enough jobs for everyone that needs one.
> 
> It's a problem that is not easily fixed.


I think you might be onto something. We've got an influx of illegals that are willing and can work for less than an American citizen who pays taxes etc. In my personal opinion, if you're willing to work you'll probably always be able to find something to do. Our local paper has a lot of places looking for help but you have to be able to adapt and learn. I still say, with our economy tanking, if you have a job making enough money to make your payments and put food on the table, you better not quit!!


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

Brother Noah said:


> Wow what a strange observation from an electrical contractor.So what is your idea to fix this problem? How many of these displace souls has your firm offered to help with a job? Yes this plant also had maintenance wiremen. The fact is corporate greed is a reason why workers for this corporation are now without a job to go to, not greed to earn a respectful income and or ask for benefits. Our society (in my opinion) has got to the point where if we the working class ask for crumbs to feed our family's for the labor that produce stock for corporations to be able to live a better life, well then we should be ashamed of our self. The nerve of those peons who work for a living to want and desire a better way of life! Look even in the unions we have some that are lazy or undesirable but we are taught to earn what you get in life and fight for our right to be represented.


 I think I just told you how to fix this problem, start looking for another job because this one is over. You can sit around for a month and scream and kick and bang your head on the floor but all you've done is wasted a month that you should have been looking for work. Sad thing is I'm not sure where you'll find someone looking for a baker from the union. I think Little Debbies is a privately owned company that is still profitable. Sara Lee has changed hand a few times already so I wouldn't bank on them. Do you think if they would have fired the CEO's, took their pensions away from them and distributed the wealth to the workers they would have been able to keep the business running? How many Twinkies have you eaten in the last month?


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

Zog said:


> Just waiting for O to approve another "Ding dong" bailout:laughing:


Yea, we would not want the auto industry to survive either.
Get over it. Romney lost. Geezzzz :whistling2:


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

Twinkles have sucked for years ...


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

icefalkon said:


> Twinkles have sucked for years ...


As a kid I loved twinkles, a few years ago my nephew from England asked about this iconic American treat so I bought two packages we both said the same thing, UGGGGGGGGG.


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## chewy (May 9, 2010)

brian john said:


> As a kid I loved twinkles, a few years ago my nephew from England asked about this iconic American treat so I bought two packages we both said the same thing, UGGGGGGGGG.


We were working in an American office and they had twinkies and I pretty much said the same thing.


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

Preservatives don't help those foods taste any better, they just keep them from expiring.

Give me a fresh baked pastry made with quality ingredients. I'd rather have one of those on a rare occasion than most things packaged.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

John Valdes said:


> Get over it. Romney lost. Geezzzz :whistling2:


Time to pick your needle up off the record! It keeps playing the same thing over and over!:laughing::laughing: What does Romney losing have to do with bailing out failing companies??


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

Ha! We used to say...what do you expect from a food with no expiration date?

After a nuclear war...what's left?

Roaches

Cher

Twinkles.


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

icefalkon said:


> Ha! We used to say...what do you expect from a food with no expiration date?
> 
> After a nuclear war...what's left?
> 
> ...


And Yoohoo.

They often ship those drinks to disaster areas because they do not need to be refrigerated.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

wendon said:


> Hope you had a happy turkey day. As for me, I shamelessly stuffed myself!!!


Thank you for asking, I had an outstanding turkey day. I'm glad you did as well.


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## bartstop (Sep 30, 2012)

eejack said:


> Hostess is out of business because they are in the wrong business and haven't adapted.
> 
> High carb treats are a no no on every single diet out there.
> 
> ...


That was the best post of this thread. Even though many Americans are obese, it's not because they are buying more and more Twinkies, obviously. Americans really are trying to do something about their weight. The problem is that we're told to eat "healthy whole grain" and "low fat" but we're not being told that low fat, whole grain bread actually has a higher glycemic index than table sugar. Until we stop eating processed crap (flour, sugar, corn syrup, corn starch) we're going to continue to have an obesity epidemic. Fat doesn't make you fat. Excessive carbohydrates (that causes insulin resistance) and lack of exercise make you fat. 



Dave


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## Amish Electrician (Jan 2, 2010)

Chicken, I tried your link and got an 'site is offline' message. 

Others: The judge ordered 'mediation.' That's just a formality. Since then, management has reported the failure of mediation and asked for permission to dissolve the firm.

Everyone assumes the brands will live on. I'm not so sure about that. As well known as the names are, they're not in the same league as "Coke" or "Xerox." We've already seen "Polaroid" and "Oldsmobile" vanish from our lives.

I doubt anyone will pay a nickel for the names. 

Over the holiday, I drove 4 hours to join the relatives. Truck stops and mini-marts along the way had no problem filling their shelves with cakes and pies made by other firms. 

When a business is damaged by fire, it often fails later - not because of the fire, but because the customers fond somewhere else to go during the repairs. It's quite hard to get them back.

So, the old Wonder Bread driver is probably wearing a pink shirt today, delivering Bunny Bread instead. The merchant isn't really too worried about losing the brands.

They've killed the goose that was laying the golden eggs.


xxxxxx

I continue to see folks speaking as if they assume that all management, all unions, and all labor disputes are the same. That's plain silly. That's like looking at one letter and asserting you now know how to read. 

Probably the best example of what bad management can do to a good name is the experience Harley-Davidson had, during the brief time they were owned by Voit. It took Harley a good 15 years to recover from that mess.

Indeed, a "1 percent" biker lent me his H-D logo pen recently, with the caution: "Be careful. It's a Harley. it might leak."


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## sopranocaponyc (Nov 24, 2008)

icefalkon said:


> Ha! We used to say...what do you expect from a food with no expiration date?
> 
> After a nuclear war...what's left?
> 
> ...


And red Bull!


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## Amish Electrician (Jan 2, 2010)

Just reinforcing my previous post ....

Work this week has taken me to a vending machine service company - where the guy had to scramble to replace Hostess products. Well, he has.

Now he has a warehouse full of "Mrs Fresh" or some such cakes and pies. I tried a pie, and it was actually full of filling, rather than Hostess air. 

Hostess is history. Even if they start up again, the customers are gone.


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## henderson14 (Oct 23, 2010)

For those too lazy to read and like to laugh

http://www.hulu.com/watch/429271#i0,p6,s18,d0

Skip to 6:47


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Amish Electrician said:


> Chicken, I tried your link and got an 'site is offline' message.


must be they're in mediation....:whistling2:~CS~


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