# Changing the circuit layout



## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Why is the customer talking to you but the jw who left makes the plan?

Why do they have the money for breakers per room but can't split lights and outlets?


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Who actually draws a plan for house wiring? That cracks me up.


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## 746 Watts (Nov 13, 2016)

The previous guy drew it up, wired it, and isn't available any more. The home owner wants more receptacles now which will over load the receptacle count on each breaker, which I'm here to help out with. While looking at the layout with him, he doesn't like the old layout and wants it changed now.

They want things simple. One breaker, one room, all the lights and plugs off together. They are also running out of room in the panel.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

How many plugs are allowed on one circuit?


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## 746 Watts (Nov 13, 2016)

Majewski said:


> How many plugs are allowed on one circuit?



12. But if you know the load, then you factor that in. One hair dryer is like 12 on its own.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

746 Watts said:


> The previous guy drew it up, wired it, and isn't available any more. The home owner wants more receptacles now which will over load the receptacle count on each breaker, which I'm here to help out with. While looking at the layout with him, he doesn't like the old layout and wants it changed now.
> 
> They want things simple. One breaker, one room, all the lights and plugs off together. They are also running out of room in the panel.


Sounds good until you give them a price. betya a Canadian dollar they say it is just fine the way it is.


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## 746 Watts (Nov 13, 2016)

They are supplying all the parts. They already have it all. They know how much it costs.


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## 746 Watts (Nov 13, 2016)

I was just reading a history of hair dryers and it appears that they have evolved over the years to consumer more than they did in the past.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Sounds like they can do the work themselves too.


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## 746 Watts (Nov 13, 2016)

Is it normal for a customer to pay for a service and not get what they want?


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## PlugsAndLights (Jan 19, 2016)

The way they it want it done exceeds code. If they want to pay for the extra(s), I 
don't see a problem. 
P&L


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

746 Watts said:


> Is it normal for a customer to pay for a service and not get what they want?


No.

The customer wants something. It's up to the electrician to give good advice and warn the customer of potential problems. Once you have done that, it is the customer's choice. As long as it's code compliant and they are willing to pay extra for it, do what they want without question.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

746 Watts said:


> They are supplying all the parts. They already have it all. They know how much it costs.


The Homeowner supply all the parts ??


That something I genrally dont useally run into due there are few good reasons.,

A) The parts maybe not correct in the appaction so it can waste your time to hunt down the parts pile.,,

B.) The warranty for all those homeowner provide materals useally pretty much zip on that.,, 

C) the labour cost that you need to kick it up some due the homeowner provide the materals so you need something in your pocket.


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

it is normally a good idea to have the lights on a different circuit than the recs in in any given room


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

PlugsAndLights said:


> The way they it want it done exceeds code. If they want to pay for the extra(s), I
> don't see a problem.
> P&L





HackWork said:


> No.
> 
> The customer wants something. It's up to the electrician to give good advice and warn the customer of potential problems. Once you have done that, it is the customer's choice. As long as it's code compliant and they are willing to pay extra for it, do what they want without question.





746 Watts said:


> Is it normal for a customer to pay for a service and not get what they want?


I agree, the house should be just the way they want it on move in day, even if some of the things they want turn out to be silly years later. 

I also think the things they are asking for are fine. You come up with a price for a safe and compliant way to do it. They pay. All happy. 

There's no way to deal with hair dryers without putting the bathroom receptacle(s) on their own circuit. Even with LED lighting the fan is going to draw some. 

Did you consider, is there a spot and budget for an upstairs subpanel?


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## 746 Watts (Nov 13, 2016)

It's for friends, so I'm happy to go the extra mile for them. 

Parts piles are a pain for sure. It's a mess, but they are good about running back and forth to get supplies from the store or dig around to find what I need so that I don't have to. Also, most of it was already purchased a long time before I got on board.

They worked on the diagram with the previous guy so they could figure out where special appliances should be placed as well as general lights and plugs. So I'm just continuing with that, and making changes to it as things have evolved. We were told to make drawings in school anyway so you could hand them over to the customer to look more professional. I'm sure most customers wouldn't care, they would just want to know everything is working.

I talked to some women about their hair habits, and it sounds like most of them take care of it in the bathroom, and not in the bed room for using their curling irons, hair straighteners, and hair dryers, so the bath room outlet is important.

I asked some guys I used to work with and they have either not thought about the consequences sharing the bathroom plug with other things, or they say they have and it has been no problem.

But maybe it is a problem and they have never had a call back about problems, because people don't use a hair dryer, or they just think it is normal thing to pop the breaker all the time. Just like how most people get used to 3-way switches being hooked up wrong, thinking that's just how they are meant to work because they don't know any better.


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## 746 Watts (Nov 13, 2016)

splatz said:


> Did you consider, is there a spot and budget for an upstairs subpanel?


I wanted to do a sub panel at one part of the house, but it was already mostly wired up with home runs by the time I came on to the scene. Would have made things a lot simpler. I mentioned it as an after thought, and they said they didn't really have much of an area of a wall they would have wanted to dedicate to putting a panel. So it, is what it is I guess.

Personally in my own home, I wouldn't want a whole room on one breaker. I have never seen a house set up that way. I've always wired everything as separating lights from the plugs to avoid the vacuum flicker, or just do a general mixing of rooms to be efficient with using the least amount of copper. Also, if something went wrong in a room, at least you could get some stuff working in there, like plug a table lamp in to see if there was a lighting issue while the plugs still work. Having one room all together leaves you dead in the water if something goes bad.

Another unique request popped up today. Originally they wanted the HRV controls in the same box as the light switches, which we would have needed dividers to separate the voltages sources. Now they want to have the HRV signal control buttons put near the toilets or showers, on their own, so I have to read up on that tonight. Since they are extra-low voltage, I think it's alright. I remember there is some rule about allowing telephones near the toilet, so have to dig around that chapter since it is probably in there.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

I am excited to see how much you lose on this job. Please be honest so we can all learn that the homeowner has no idea what they are talking about. 
In my next home I am going to put every receptacle and light on it's own circuit.


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## 746 Watts (Nov 13, 2016)

If your being paid by the hour, I don't see why it should matter how long it takes to make it the way they want it. If it was a flat quote then, I would not agree to doing anything extra obviously without extra compensation.


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## BlackHowling (Feb 27, 2013)

746 Watts said:


> 12. But if you know the load, then you factor that in. One hair dryer is like 12 on its own.


Following that train of thought every receptacle has to be on it and since you know she has a blow dryer and could use it on any receptacle it shouldn't share. 

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

With "friends" like those, who needs enemies?


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I try to get as much info from the customer and design it to avoid problems if I can. Yes to bath receptacles on their own circuit, especially if its a larger bathroom. Maybe you have a couple of teenage daughters to deal with. Maybe its wise that each bathroom receptacle gets its own circuit, though powder rooms don't concern me that much, those can be tagged to other bathrooms without much concern. Lighting and receptacles together on a single circuit in a bedroom isn't much of a concern unless you know someone is likely to use plug in heaters or window air conditioners. In most cases, bedrooms don't have much draw.


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## PlugsAndLights (Jan 19, 2016)

As I mentioned earlier, what they want you to do exceeds code so everything 
is fine. None the less, I agree it's good practice to limit the load(s) on cct(s) 
feeding bathroom GFI's. In this case I'd suggest: 
Put the receptacles of each room on their own cct, and ALL of the lighting 
on each floor on another. I expect what they really want is to make it easy to
know which breaker does what. Put all of a room (lites&plugs) on 1 cct and 
now you have the lites on an AFCI and that's more likely to cause tripping 
issues.
If they don't like that idea, no big deal, give them what they want. If they call 
later saying the breaker is tripping, it'll be an opportunity to laugh at them.

BTW, I wouldn't encourage customers to become this involved in the 
decision making. They get a say in where things are, end of. 
YMMV
P&L


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

papaotis said:


> it is normally a good idea to have the lights on a different circuit than the recs in in any given room


In a house? Many homes are built w/o lights in any room that doesn't require them.


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## 746 Watts (Nov 13, 2016)

Majewski said:


> With "friends" like those, who needs enemies?


Almost finished trolling?



PlugsAndLights said:


> Put all of a room (lites&plugs) on 1 cct and
> now you have the lites on an AFCI and that's more likely to cause tripping
> issues.
> 
> ...


So switching lights on and off is pretty bad for nuisance tripping the AFCI? It could depend brand to brand since I've read some are not built as well as others. These ones are going to be Siemens. If they are that sensitive, I would imagine ceiling fan motors would be even worse for nuisance tripping. I couldn't say because everyone I know does lights and plugs separate to save on AFCI breakers.

I would have preferred to not have any input like you said for the arrangement of things. I'd rather make things the way I know are going to be solid and work, rather than a symmetrical layout for the sake of isolating areas. We have talked this morning and are coming to an agreement on this stuff so that I can try to save them any regrets.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Trolling? How about put the thread in the right section. You're in Canada right? Go ask in Canadiaville....and any sparky would know what and how a hair dryer works in the first place.


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## PlugsAndLights (Jan 19, 2016)

Majewski said:


> Trolling? How about put the thread in the right section. You're in Canada right? Go ask in Canadiaville....and any sparky would know what and how a hair dryer works in the first place.


First time I've seen you seem sensitive. Everything OK? Need a hug? 
P&L


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

On phone with customer support in some language I don't understand. lol


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## PlugsAndLights (Jan 19, 2016)

746 Watts said:


> Almost finished trolling?
> 
> 
> 
> So switching lights on and off is pretty bad for nuisance tripping the AFCI? It could depend brand to brand since I've read some are not built as well as others. These ones are going to be Siemens. If they are that sensitive, I would imagine ceiling fan motors would be even worse for nuisance tripping.


Wouldn't expect lights to trip AFCI's more than other loads. Ceiling 
fans might, seems likely, but not sure. My thoughts weren't that 
specific though. More along the simple lines that the more wire
and loads are on an AFCI, the more opportunity to cause a problem. 
Anyways, if you, the customer, and the inspector are happy, 
everything's good.
I'll toss out 1 more suggestion anyways: Feed the bathroom with a 
3-wire to the GFI. Don't connect the red at either end. If there's 
problems in the future, put the red to use. 
Cheers,
P&L


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Damnit, Majewski flipped out and I wasn't here to cause it. 

The clock change threw me off today, I will be better tomorrow...


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## drewsserviceco (Aug 1, 2014)

Maybe they rotate receptacles between the different rooms like tires on a car... every 300 plug insertions or every three months, whichever comes first.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Putting lights on an AFCI is dumb. That means every smokie is on an AFCI, which is even dumber.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> Putting lights on an AFCI is dumb.


Why? Is there less chance of arcing in lighting circuits than receptacle circuits?


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> Why? Is there less chance of arcing in lighting circuits than receptacle circuits?


I don't understand your question. Do you want to be climbing a ladder taking down fixtures, troubleshooting chit that's completely unnecessary? Not me. 

My mantra is "Arc fault only when necessary".


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> I don't understand your question. Do you want to be climbing a ladder taking down fixtures, troubleshooting chit that's completely unnecessary? Not me.
> 
> My mantra is "Arc fault only when necessary".


I'm no fan of AFCIs either, but if you are supposed to put them on receptacle circuits, shouldn't they also go on lighting circuits? That's what our code requires. 

You said putting lights on AFCIs is dumb. While I think using AFCIs on anything is dumb, I cant see why one would think putting receptacles on AFCIs is fine while putting lights on an AFCI is dumb.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> I'm no fan of AFCIs either, but if you are supposed to put them on receptacle circuits, shouldn't they also go on lighting circuits? That's what our code requires.
> 
> You said putting lights on AFCIs is dumb. While I think using AFCIs on anything is dumb, I cant see why one would think putting receptacles on AFCIs is fine while putting lights on an AFCI is dumb.


CEC only requires AFCI's for specific receptacles.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

I wish it was like that here.... Sneeze and you have to afci something.


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## scotch (Oct 17, 2013)

A different thought....AFCI's...there's a market for the Chinese to put out copies...big bucks in mark-up . Already seen a video showing a 60A breaker...think it was Siemens or SqD with no thermal trip inside just a switch so it did open and close manually...but that was about it !
So unless you have a breaker test rig....I know in Europe many have them to sign off on new panels and circuit additions....it's a circus ! Welcome to the future !


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

HackWork said:


> Why? Is there less chance of arcing in lighting circuits than receptacle circuits?


There is definitely an inconsistency there. I think in some places it's said the rationale was the dangerous arc actually occurs in the cords, not in the wiring in the walls. But then in others, it's about the arc in the walls, because if you pipe up to the point of use arc fault device (recep or dead face) it's OK. 

I always thought the rule about arc faulting only bedrooms and living spaces was dumb, are you safe it a fire starts in the walls that's headed to an unoccupied room?


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

99cents said:


> CEC only requires AFCI's for specific receptacles.


More like the CEC requires arc faults for most receptacles in residential, with a few exceptions for specific locations.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

PlugsAndLights said:


> BTW, I wouldn't encourage customers to become this involved in the
> decision making.


Neither would I. In this case, the customer isn't asking for anything wrong, it's just unusual. 

I like to keep things simple. In this instance, I would explain the arc fault issues and the need for extra panel space. If the customer still wants to proceed, no problem.

We are the voice of experience, however, and need to establish our dominance over the customer. Nobody enjoys being a doormat. I like to establish that dominance early and the best way to do that is to say, "No". If the customer wants to argue, I just tell him the inspector's my boss (this scenario is code compliant, though).

With regard to bathrooms, I always put them on a separate circuit although the CEC doesn't require it.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> We are the voice of experience, however, and need to establish our dominance over the customer.


Agreed. That's why I pee on all of my customers when I first walk into their house.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Majewski said:


> On phone with customer support in some language I don't understand. lol


Plain old queen's English perhaps?


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## 746 Watts (Nov 13, 2016)

Majewski, I do my best to research and find out stuff on my own, and if I have to, I will ask guys that I know. If not satisfied with the responses, I come here and provide enough back story to present my situation to try not to waste people's time and to cut down on questions. 

To the guys who stop by and provide advice, I am very grateful and I respect that they are taking the time out of their lives to help me out. 

The odd joke or occasional chit chat is nice to lighten things up, and you are welcome to continue if you can think of something relevant to say, but I don't see how anything you have said so far has helped me, other than using my thread to assist you on your journey to reach 7000 posts:



Majewski said:


> Why is the customer talking to you but the jw who left makes the plan?
> 
> Why do they have the money for breakers per room but can't split lights and outlets?


Two questions I clarified on, and no follow up from you. It's ok, I had all day to waste, it's not like I was in a hurry to get out the door and try and get things done or anything like that.



Majewski said:


> How many plugs are allowed on one circuit?


I wasn't sure if this was meant to insult me as though I didn't have a tattered up code book beside me with the answer already etched into my memory, but I played along. I gave you the benefit of the doubt thinking you were trying to provide a let me, let you, help yourself moment to find my own answer... which still you could save everyone the headache and just post the answer if you know it. No follow up from you on that one either.



Majewski said:


> Sounds like they can do the work themselves too.


Thanks, I couldn't figure that out for myself. I'll be sure to turn everyone down in the future that makes me think outside of the box.



Majewski said:


> With "friends" like those, who needs enemies?


Trying to insult my choice of friends and taking the conversation further off topic.



Majewski said:


> Trolling? How about put the thread in the right section. You're in Canada right? Go ask in Canadiaville....and any sparky would know what and how a hair dryer works in the first place.


When researching hair dryer posts before making my own thread, I found your residential question here http://www.electriciantalk.com/f2/afci-175002/#post3210258 involving a hair dryer in the General section, but I'm not judging you for your decision of where to post.

Yes, my location is Canada. Pretty sure my location is listed right beside my avatar for you to see without having to ask yet another rhetorical question.

I don't see a problem putting a residential question in the residential section. To my knowledge, my scenario wasn't too dependent on code anyway, and I mentioned I'm on the CEC in the original post in case anyone cared. If I put it in the CEC section, Americans are going to come in and talk about the NEC anyway, so not a big deal in my opinion. 

It's not like you don't make a new thread every single time you are trouble shooting something and trying to get someone to give you the answer so you don't have to figure it out for yourself. So, cut me some slack please.

And If you believe in Wikipedia:



> In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[2] or of otherwise disrupting normal, on-topic discussion,[3] often for the troll's amusement.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

746 Watts said:


> Majewski, I do my best to research and find out stuff on my own, and if I have to, I will ask guys that I know. If not satisfied with the responses, I come here and provide enough back story to present my situation to try not to waste people's time and to cut down on questions.
> 
> To the guys who stop by and provide advice, I am very grateful and I respect that they are taking the time out of their lives to help me out.
> 
> ...


You're mad at your dad, not me. I forgive you.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Maj just got his ass handed to him.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Majewski, this is all because you won't tell me your company name and show me your new van setup.


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