# Working on the down-low



## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Talked to my buddy who has been off work 4 months. He caved and took a non-union job last week. Some fire alarm shop that does alot of hospital work. I wished him luck, he told me it was just to keep bankruptcy at bay until the books clear up and that he feels like a douchebag.

My best advice was to avoid the prevailing-wage work, but I can't help feeling that working on hospital campuses, he is going to be recognized sooner or later


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## Marker (Oct 20, 2009)

What's the typical "punishment" from the local? Banishment? High dollar fine?


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## BCSparkyGirl (Aug 20, 2009)

I think this is BS. Why should anyone be penalized in this day and age for making sure that they don't go bankrupt or lose their home. How come his "brothers" don't cough up the cash to make sure that this doesnt happen to him? I don't get this at all. If it is so bad to work a non union job, why dont they make sure they have enough work for all their members? I see many people I know working union jobs get laid off time and again. I have worked non union my entire life, and have never been out of work except for the time I didn't feel like working. No waiting on a list for my name to come up, I was hired, and work non stop til I say done.


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## TheRick (Apr 13, 2008)

BCSparkyGirl said:


> I think this is BS. Why should anyone be penalized in this day and age for making sure that they don't go bankrupt or lose their home. How come his "brothers" don't cough up the cash to make sure that this doesnt happen to him? I don't get this at all. If it is so bad to work a non union job, why dont they make sure they have enough work for all their members? I see many people I know working union jobs get laid off time and again. I have worked non union my entire life, and have never been out of work except for the time I didn't feel like working. No waiting on a list for my name to come up, I was hired, and work non stop til I say done.


Well said....and DITTO :thumbsup:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

I think with times like they are the local should operate with blinders on.

I would be more worried about feeding my family than some union lawyer.

Doesn't exactly go with my rant on cheaters after all this could be considered cheating on his BROTHERS.


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## user5941 (Mar 16, 2009)

BCSparkyGirl said:


> I think this is BS. Why should anyone be penalized in this day and age for making sure that they don't go bankrupt or lose their home. How come his "brothers" don't cough up the cash to make sure that this doesnt happen to him? I don't get this at all. If it is so bad to work a non union job, why dont they make sure they have enough work for all their members? I see many people I know working union jobs get laid off time and again. I have worked non union my entire life, and have never been out of work except for the time I didn't feel like working. No waiting on a list for my name to come up, I was hired, and work non stop til I say done.


 You can't teach a rat new tricks


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

rewire said:


> You can't teach a *rat* new tricks


 
I hate that word.

Oh and in the Urban Dictionary doing it on the down-low is something most men never want to admit to!


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## user5941 (Mar 16, 2009)

brian john said:


> I hate that word.
> 
> Oh and in the Urban Dictionary doing it on the down-low is something most men never want to admit to!


 would you prefer fuzzy bunnies?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

rewire said:


> would you prefer fuzzy bunnies?


To rat or down-low?


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

I don't want to know what it means, but it meant 'under-the-radar' to me. When he updates me on the situation, I'll post something on here non-specific.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

miller_elex said:


> Talked to my buddy who has been off work 4 months. He caved and took a non-union job last week. Some fire alarm shop that does alot of hospital work. I wished him luck, he told me it was just to keep bankruptcy at bay until the books clear up and that he feels like a douchebag.
> 
> My best advice was to avoid the prevailing-wage work, but I can't help feeling that working on hospital campuses, he is going to be recognized sooner or later


It totally sucks that he has to feel this way considering he is trying to feed his family and not lose his house.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

rewire said:


> would you prefer fuzzy bunnies?


No. We would prefer that that word not be used to describe a fellow tradesman trying to do the right thing for his family. Actually any fellow tradesman. 

I don't care who you are. The connotations of that word are completely insulting.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

In Eastern WA the local IBEW allows laid off members to work for non-union shops. It's unfourtunate that the Oregon local he's in doesn't allow this as a person has to make a living and someone is going to do the work one way or another.


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## st0mps (Aug 19, 2009)

work for cash no check and collect unemployment and b fund


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

st0mps said:


> work for cash no check and collect unemployment and b fund


That's the stand-up thing to do.


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## edward (Feb 11, 2009)

the crew i work (non-union) just hired a union electrician. im glad he is with us, im learning alot from him. its scary though, he said he is number 237 on a list of 250 or something.

that is what has always scared me about joining the union. im only 22, im gonna be the low man where ever i go, how am i going to get a steady check? i suppose right now its not really that great union or non-union, im glad i know how to live simply!


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*Union*

Edward, if he is working with you he is not working UNION. That is not necessarily a bad thing. What we all forget is that the purpose of our union is to protect worker's rights. The rest of it is fluff. Did I say that? We should be looking out for our fellow man...did I say that?


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## edward (Feb 11, 2009)

*edit* read your post wrong sorry.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

edward said:


> the crew i work (non-union) just hired a union electrician. im glad he is with us, im learning alot from him. its scary though, he said he is number 237 on a list of 250 or something.
> 
> that is what has always scared me about joining the union. im only 22, im gonna be the low man where ever i go, how am i going to get a steady check? i suppose right now its not really that great union or non-union, im glad i know how to live simply!


 
What can happen is you'll get in with a shop and they won't ever lay you off so you're not on that list. Once you get down the list, get hired, if they like you then they can keep you on.


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## Sparky480 (Aug 26, 2007)

nitro71 said:


> What can happen is you'll get in with a shop and they won't ever lay you off so you're not on that list. Once you get down the list, get hired, if they like you then they can keep you on.


The local im in doesn't think that will ever work so we are not allowed to move jobs. Its the most ridiculous thing i have ever heard of. The last contractor that I worked for wanted to keep me he kept me my whole apprenticeship sent emails and letters to our BM and they still made them lay me off. So now you have to be faced with making a decison of you have to do what you have to do. Buying a house in November of last year and getting laid off in January is a scary thing. Thank god I have family members to lean on in slow times for work.


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## BDB (Jul 9, 2008)

Sparky480 said:


> The local im in doesn't think that will ever work so we are not allowed to move jobs.


Then your local is screwed up big time.


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## user5941 (Mar 16, 2009)

Speedy Petey said:


> No. We would prefer that that word not be used to describe a fellow tradesman trying to do the right thing for his family. Actually any fellow tradesman.
> 
> I don't care who you are. The connotations of that word are completely insulting.


 Well this is the UNION topic part of the board and the word RAT is a common expression used by UNION tradesmen maybe if you are offended then you have the option on not posting to the UNION part of the forum or grow a thicker skin.I never use the term outside of the UNION part of the forum.


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## Sparky480 (Aug 26, 2007)

BDB said:


> Then your local is screwed up big time.


Big time is an understatement!! We have almost 300 guys out of work who are traveling to Albany and upstate state NY but when you ask the business manager about making a market recovery rate he says that no matter what he will not lower the rate. So instead these guys with family's have to live in a hotel for the weeks come home on weekends for 12 bucks less an hour than if they were working here. When they can set a market recovery rate and gain work back and keep guys working close to home.


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## user5941 (Mar 16, 2009)

Sparky480 said:


> Big time is an understatement!! We have almost 300 guys out of work who are traveling to Albany and upstate state NY but when you ask the business manager about making a market recovery rate he says that no matter what he will not lower the rate. So instead these guys with family's have to live in a hotel for the weeks come home on weekends for 12 bucks less an hour than if they were working here. When they can set a market recovery rate and gain work back and keep guys working close to home.


 maybe it's time to vote in a new BA.At the next meeting fill the hall and have the issue addressed under good of the union.


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## TheRick (Apr 13, 2008)

rewire said:


> Well this is the UNION topic part of the board and the word RAT is a common expression used by UNION tradesmen maybe if you are offended then you have the option on not posting to the UNION part of the forum or grow a thicker skin.I never use the term outside of the UNION part of the forum.


HMMMM..........now what is it that gives union guys a bad name..........no wait I will think of it..........give me a minute..........oh yeah now I remember..........



GUYS WITH ATTITUDES LIKE YOURS! :laughing:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

OK, let me see if I can wrap my head around this.

Your buddy is (or at least _was_) a union electrician. And he hasn't worked in months, so he took a non-union job.

Now, his union is going to give him shît about doing what he feels is necessary to keep his house. Is this correct?


Strange. I thought unions were there for guys like that.


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## user5941 (Mar 16, 2009)

TheRick said:


> HMMMM..........now what is it that gives union guys a bad name..........no wait I will think of it..........give me a minute..........oh yeah now I remember..........
> 
> 
> 
> GUYS WITH ATTITUDES LIKE YOURS! :laughing:


 Its old guys like me with are attitudes that won you all the pay and benefits and working conditions you now enjoy,this is like the liberal puke that called me a baby killer because I was putting my ass in harms way so he could enjoy the freedom to trash me.


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## TheRick (Apr 13, 2008)

rewire said:


> Its old guys like me with are attitudes that won you all the pay and benefits and working conditions you now enjoy,this is like the liberal puke that called me a baby killer because I was putting my ass in harms way so he could enjoy the freedom to trash me.


First off it would be "our" not "are"

Secondly, you didn't "win" me anything....I am not in the Union.

Thirdly, Thank you for your service to our great country......not a liberal bone in my body! I served to, and am now working to help our great men and women in uniform stay safe while working in a forward deployed area.


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## user5941 (Mar 16, 2009)

TheRick said:


> First off it would be "our" not "are"


 now your taking work from the spelling police


> Secondly, you didn't "win" me anything....I am not in the Union.


do you work a forty hour week, do you get paid for overtime,are you provided with safety equipment, do you get paid holidays,paid vacation if you answered yes to any of these then you were "won" something by the union or do you actually believe your boss does this out of the goodness of his heart. Look at what happened to the military during the "peace" time of the 90s, Clinton gutted the military because after all why do we need a military when we have "peace" well we are seeing how that worked out. Just think for a moment what your workplace would be like if your boss knew he had no union to worry about . I actually seen this happen when I was in a non union shop the foreman walked in and anounced that anyone willing to take a dollar less an hour could stay on the job, I was one of the few who walked out.


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## Lone Crapshooter (Nov 8, 2008)

If the IBEW has done so much for the working man how they only let a select few in the locals. 
THEY WERE NOT THERE FOR ME WHEN I NEEDED THEM.
I WORKED NONSIGNITURED BECAUSE OF THE IBEW.
I AM A ELECTRICIAN INSPITE OF THE IBEW NOT BECAUSE OF THE IBEW.
LC


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Rewire, I like how you think, and it is true, I thank people like you.

My bud held on about as long as he could. He did not get laid-off then strike out the next day for a non-union job. Some guys who hit the books already have two months or more of unemployment already used up, because the office told them there was work on the horizon and strung them along... That I do not agree with, especially in times like these.

My old friend told me there must be something in the water the half-watts are drinking. He said the half-watts walk alot slower, have alot of work backlogged, they take looong breaks, he said the people in the office treated him like an actual person... I hope he comes back! Maybe if he comes back he will take only half-watt calls  

We've all made fun of the half-watts for such a long time, and they've been having all this fun?!?


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## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

rewire said:


> You can't teach a rat new tricks


 
So true. However, since the union electricians only make up 3% of the country's electrical work force by definition the union workers should start calling themselfs rats picking up leftover work that the non-union shops haven't taken. And also for not being able to learn new tricks to pick up additional work and put their members to work.


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## al13nw4r3LC76 (Apr 6, 2009)

Where did you get that figure of 3%? Just wondering.


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## TheRick (Apr 13, 2008)

rewire said:


> Just think for a moment what your workplace would be like if your boss knew he had no union to worry about.


My boss, and I, have no worries about having a union around, there isn't one. Funny thing is.....my pay and benefits are better than any other electrician I know, union or non union. My last job was also non union, and pay and benefits were right in line with the union work in the area......but I made much more annually, because I actually worked the entire year, not just 6 - 8 months.


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## ArrrrrMatey (Oct 23, 2009)

TheRick, you are avoiding the real point.

Even the most venomous union bashers still agree that unions did a lot of good for the working man in the past. 

A lot of people just think that the current unions are no more than a parasite, but there is no changing history.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

ArrrrrMatey said:


> TheRick, you are avoiding the real point.
> 
> Even the most venomous union bashers still agree that unions did a lot of good for the working man in the past.
> 
> A lot of people just think that the current unions are no more than a parasite, but there is no changing history.


I'll admit they were beneficial. But the past is the past. 

All that matters is what they are doing _now._


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## ArrrrrMatey (Oct 23, 2009)

Peter D said:


> I'll admit they were beneficial. But the past is the past.
> 
> All that matters is what they are doing _now._


You're wrong, the conversation is about what they did in the past.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

ArrrrrMatey said:


> You're wrong, the conversation is about what they did in the past.


No, indeed you are the one who is wrong. The conversation is about the "down low."


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## ArrrrrMatey (Oct 23, 2009)

Peter D said:


> No, indeed you are the one who is wrong. The conversation is about the "down low."


The thread topic might be, not the conversation.

Peter, you are slowly but surely slipping out of the position of my favorite poster here.


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## ArrrrrMatey (Oct 23, 2009)

I'm sorry, I didn't mean that. It was a lie.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

ArrrrrMatey said:


> The thread topic might be, not the conversation.
> 
> Peter, you are slowly but surely slipping out of the position of my favorite poster here.


*sigh*

I do what I can. If that means a fall from grace, so be it. I'm only human.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

ArrrrrMatey said:


> You're wrong, the conversation is about what they did in the past.


You won't be satisfied until I'm a full fledged dues-paying member of the I.B.E.W.


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## ArrrrrMatey (Oct 23, 2009)

Peter D said:


> You won't be satisfied until I'm a full fledged dues-paying member of the I.B.E.W.


Not at all. I'm not particularly a big fan of the IBEW. I'll still argue valid point when people are being one sided, on either side.


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## TheRick (Apr 13, 2008)

ArrrrrMatey said:


> You're wrong, the conversation is about what they did in the past.


Uh.....no.....go back and read the original post, the conversation WAS about the BS the union is pulling NOW, and the only defense you can muster is what happened 60+ years ago.

Yes unions had there time and place, but they are outdated (in my opinion). The sweat shops are gone!


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

Perhaps some of the locals and some of the unions are out dated. But you can't say that about all of them. The local union here has no serious faults from what I can see. Treats it's members well. Treats non-union workers well. Without the union the pay scale would be much lower than what it is for the non-union electricians. The real problem right now is a lack of work across the board for everyone..


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## user5941 (Mar 16, 2009)

TheRick said:


> Uh.....no.....go back and read the original post, the conversation WAS about the BS the union is pulling NOW, and the only defense you can muster is what happened 60+ years ago.
> 
> Yes unions had there time and place, but they are outdated (in my opinion). The sweat shops are gone!


 and with the union gone how long would it be before they were back?:whistling2:


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## TheRick (Apr 13, 2008)

rewire said:


> and with the union gone how long would it be before they were back?:whistling2:


There are federal and state labor laws in place now that would not allow that to happen, if there weren't they would still be around.


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

TheRick said:


> There are federal and state labor laws in place now that would not allow that to happen, if there weren't they would still be around.


my response to this statement is "do you speak spanish?"
i dont think that many contractors give a falling crap about anything but the bottom dollar and if they routinely break labor laws now .....


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## TheRick (Apr 13, 2008)

nolabama said:


> my response to this statement is "do you speak spanish?"


 HUH? What is that supposed to mean?



nolabama said:


> i dont think that many contractors give a falling crap about anything but the bottom dollar and if they routinely break labor laws now .....


If they are non-union contractors how would the union fix this?


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

TheRick said:


> HUH? What is that supposed to mean?
> 
> 
> 
> If they are non-union contractors how would the union fix this?


i did not realize this was a union topic thread sorry for the input

and the do you speak spanish; well.... illegal labor is plentiful where i live and cheap ... it is against the law to hire illegal immigrants but contractors, legitimate ones i might add (not ibew contractors), do hire them and use them 

the only problem i have with contractors hiring illegal labor is, well, its illegal and no one will enforce the laws as they are written 

so saying that the federal and state government will prevent sweat shops is bull

and another thing about sweat shops ... trade imports come to my mind and to my mind thats like saying sweat shops are illegal on main street but not elm street


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## user5941 (Mar 16, 2009)

TheRick said:


> There are federal and state labor laws in place now that would not allow that to happen, if there weren't they would still be around.


 Laws change every term


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## TheRick (Apr 13, 2008)

nolabama said:


> and the do you speak spanish; well.... illegal labor is plentiful where i live and cheap ... it is against the law to hire illegal immigrants but contractors, legitimate ones i might add (not ibew contractors), do hire them and use them
> 
> the only problem i have with contractors hiring illegal labor is, well, its illegal and no one will enforce the laws as they are written


Sorry.....I can't really speak from experience on that subject, up here they only pick blueberries and apples.



nolabama said:


> and another thing about sweat shops ... trade imports come to my mind and to my mind thats like saying sweat shops are illegal on main street but not elm street


So if you think that US labor laws should be enforced in China, which of the laws in Communist China should be enforced in the US?


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## user5941 (Mar 16, 2009)

TheRick said:


> Sorry.....I can't really speak from experience on that subject, up here they only pick blueberries and apples.
> 
> 
> 
> So if you think that US labor laws should be enforced in China, which of the laws in Communist China should be enforced in the US?


 I think the point is we ban sweat shops but gladly purchase from counties that use them. Its like sucking from the government teat and then complaining about unions who make sure Davis Beacon is in effect.


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

TheRick said:


> Sorry.....I can't really speak from experience on that subject, up here they only pick blueberries and apples.
> 
> 
> 
> So if you think that US labor laws should be enforced in China, which of the laws in Communist China should be enforced in the US?


well they dont pick blueberries and apples here - they do anything thing they can to make a dollar - and at a rate less than than any legal worker with social security and fica and so forth

as to what laws in communist china that should be enforced here...

i think that we compete on an unlevel playing field 

i think that all products made in china should come with a sticker not unlike the union made sticker that used to be on all electrical products - and it should read 

"Made with slave labor"

all im saying about the china response is that companies like GE Westinghouse, harbor breeze, hunter, ideal, greenlee ...etc. all have no problem using slave labor ... its a corporate policy of some companies to not manufacture anything in america and policy of others not to buy anything made in america ..... some of them are electrical products that used to have a made by local xyz sticker in them

and i belive rewire is correct in saying that laws are term by term and can and will be changed to fit the corporations needs - corporations that have no problem whatsoever using slave labor


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## Sparky480 (Aug 26, 2007)

rewire said:


> maybe it's time to vote in a new BA.At the next meeting fill the hall and have the issue addressed under good of the union.


We just went through an election, The BM managed to throw the guy that ran against him off the ballot we won all the seats on the eborde as long as delegate and alternates. The BM than went to the International and said that we blind sided him and didn't tell him about the election and now we are re running all the spots over EXCEPT for the Buisness Manager financial secretary. Its unreal how much power they have and how scrwed up the system is. These are the same people that think your going to sit at home and not work when your laid off? yah ok!!


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## user5941 (Mar 16, 2009)

Sparky480 said:


> We just went through an election, The BM managed to throw the guy that ran against him off the ballot we won all the seats on the eborde as long as delegate and alternates. The BM than went to the International and said that we blind sided him and didn't tell him about the election and now we are re running all the spots over EXCEPT for the Buisness Manager financial secretary. Its unreal how much power they have and how scrwed up the system is. These are the same people that think your going to sit at home and not work when your laid off? yah ok!!


 The BA only has the power the membership gives him.


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## Sparky480 (Aug 26, 2007)

rewire said:


> The BA only has the power the membership gives him.


The membership voted last time and he got 180 votes all of our guys got any where from 450-650 And the IO still backed him its so sad to see how screwed up the system is. Our local has been a "family" buisness for 35 years and a bunch of guys finally had the balls to stand up being that we didn't want his son (one of our agents) his nephew (another one of our agents) his other nephew (another one of our agents) having the local handed to him. We cant stop him anything we do he just goes around our backs and does something diffrent.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

ArrrrrMatey said:


> TheRick, you are avoiding the real point.
> 
> Even the most venomous union bashers still agree that unions did a lot of good for the working man in the past.
> 
> A lot of people just think that the current unions are no more than a parasite, but there is no changing history.


 
Yeah and camels eat poison ivy doesn't do me any good.

MOST not all I said MOST, of the whining against contractors in my area is by SLACKERS, whiners and lazy fools.


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## regieleeroth (Feb 27, 2009)

Back to the OP for a minute, millerelex, did your friend see if he could cross over with the local's knowledge? Maybe not pulling a hardcore salt on the company, but more of a fact finding capacity? Like ask for a layoff when called back finally, and on the way out the door, mention "oh yeah, there's 400 guys like me if you decide to become signatory in the future." I think this approach would be far more effective than trying to pluck a company's best men (or women), and if followed up by a phone call/lunch with an organizer, possibly get a company in the fold with a lot less hard feelings. Just saying.

A year and a half ago, I heard one of our biggest NU competitors (militantly opposed to being signatory, 75-125 hands in the field, pays WELL) had a job downtown that they couldn't (or wouldn't) man. Top supervision (PManager and GF) were from the company, first ten hires or so were union. All were instructed by the local to be professional, efficient, good appearance, all that. Don't know how it turned out, but this is the kind of progressive step a local should be taking. I'm sure a lot of biases and preconceptions were re-thought. Hopefully.


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## user5941 (Mar 16, 2009)

regieleeroth said:


> Back to the OP for a minute, millerelex, did your friend see if he could cross over with the local's knowledge? Maybe not pulling a hardcore salt on the company, but more of a fact finding capacity? Like ask for a layoff when called back finally, and on the way out the door, mention "oh yeah, there's 400 guys like me if you decide to become signatory in the future." I think this approach would be far more effective than trying to pluck a company's best men (or women), and if followed up by a phone call/lunch with an organizer, possibly get a company in the fold with a lot less hard feelings. Just saying.
> 
> A year and a half ago, I heard one of our biggest NU competitors (militantly opposed to being signatory, 75-125 hands in the field, pays WELL) had a job downtown that they couldn't (or wouldn't) man. Top supervision (PManager and GF) were from the company, first ten hires or so were union. All were instructed by the local to be professional, efficient, good appearance, all that. Don't know how it turned out, but this is the kind of progressive step a local should be taking. I'm sure a lot of biases and preconceptions were re-thought. Hopefully.


 stop trin to derail this thread :laughing:


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## regieleeroth (Feb 27, 2009)

brian john said:


> Yeah and camels eat poison ivy doesn't do me any good.
> 
> MOST not all I said MOST, of the whining against contractors in my area is by SLACKERS, whiners and lazy fools.


My tool "buddy" 6 mo.s ago was 10-15 min's late EVERY day, beat the contractor out of ten min's BEFORE lunch (gotta hit the pisser, bro), ten min's AFTER lunch (BSing, strolling), ten min's at quitting time.... 

wouldn't work OT after dude showed up at 9 o'clock (we have a 6am start) twice, and the company told him no OT that day. "No overtime "cause I showed up late? That's chickensh*t bro, I'm stayin 8 from here on out." - exact words.

...sent EASILY 60-70 texts a day to his girl (who was a sea-hag anyway), and then tried to tell me that this company was the worst, comprised of all suckas*ses and shoprockets, and they're making money off him...

...After 3 days, I told him that when people think negatively about union labor, he's Exhibit A. After that, our conversations consisted of, "Hand me that." "Here." "Thanks." When his check came, he was proud of the fact that it was his 12th in like 2 years. Yeah very impressive. 30K a year? Not me, "brother". You make more when you honor the Agreement.


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## regieleeroth (Feb 27, 2009)

rewire said:


> stop trin to derail this thread :laughing:


..I said for a minute!:laughing:


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

rewire said:


> and with the union gone how long would it be before they were back?:whistling2:


i am going to assume you are a union contractor then?


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## user5941 (Mar 16, 2009)

oldman said:


> i am going to assume you are a union contractor then?


 we are a union shop


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

glad to hear it...recent change?


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## user5941 (Mar 16, 2009)

just signed our letter of assent this month


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

what made you decide to sign on? how are the labor rates compared to what you were at?


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

regieleeroth said:


> Back to the OP for a minute, millerelex, did your friend see if he could cross over with the local's knowledge? Maybe not pulling a hardcore salt on the company, but more of a fact finding capacity?


Yah, the local has put an end to salting as we know it. He said there was only four salts out of forty people who wanted to salt, and it is all tightly controlled, all the way down to being told when to apply, and who to apply to. Five years ago I worked with a salt when I was non-union. He was covered with tattoos and smoked weed on the job every day. He never went back to the union after salting, because where I was gave no whiz quizzes. Back when he was salting, he told me he could work wherever he wanted, he just had to fill out reports to satisfy the hall's need to know everything going on in town. Not that way anymore, maybe someone will chime in and tell us why.

Anyways, I talk to my bud every day, he said they left an hour early today (friday) and called it good. He said he has never worked in such a relaxed environment where people hardly have a pulse. I myself think it is because they are a half-watt contractor. Never ever thought I would say it, but I am jealous of the half-watts. He said the pay is a couple bucks over the union half-watt scale on the check, but the retirement is not as good, so its a wash. He said nobody at that shop was political in any way, but they thought union guys were out to teach them a lesson, so he set them straight and told them he never knew anything of that kind to ever happen, and I myself have never seen it happen either. I can't vouch for what happens out at the huge jobs though, I am a pretty ordinary electrician.

He says they are giving him training on programming fire alarm and commissioning, it is all self-study online, proprietary stuff. They also have training inhouse sometimes, and they get paid to stick around for it. I told him he better stick to pulling wire or his ass will get fat.


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## user5941 (Mar 16, 2009)

oldman said:


> what made you decide to sign on? how are the labor rates compared to what you were at?


 i payed a comparable wage so no change their. the catalyst was a desire to provide health insurance and retirement benefits we had funds allocated for this but could not find a carier for a small shop that was within budget.Group plans were not available do to the number of employees and individual plans were great for the younger guys but the older ones would get stiffed. i asked the men if this was what they wanted and they agreed to talk with the organizer.


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## ArrrrrMatey (Oct 23, 2009)

rewire said:


> i payed a comparable wage so no change their. the catalyst was a desire to provide health insurance and retirement benefits we had funds allocated for this but could not find a carier for a small shop that was within budget.Group plans were not available do to the number of employees and individual plans were great for the younger guys but the older ones would get stiffed. i asked the men if this was what they wanted and they agreed to talk with the organizer.


How long of a contract did you sign? Will you have any issues if you were to decide to go non-union again?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

rewire said:


> i payed a comparable wage so no change their. the catalyst was a desire to provide health insurance and retirement benefits we had funds allocated for this but could not find a carier for a small shop that was within budget.Group plans were not available do to the number of employees and individual plans were great for the younger guys but the older ones would get stiffed..


About the only reason a good contractor would go union. Of course there are those in the union that will still think of you as the "MAN", the evil empire.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

That settles it...I'm goin' union. Sign me up, baby! :thumbsup:


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## ArrrrrMatey (Oct 23, 2009)

Peter D said:


> That settles it...I'm goin' union. Sign me up, baby! :thumbsup:


 The union sucks, stay away.

Have you found work yet?


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

ArrrrrMatey said:


> The union sucks, stay away.
> 
> Have you found work yet?


I have a few irons in the fire.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Peter D said:


> That settles it...I'm goin' union. Sign me up, baby! :thumbsup:


 
There's a union for Kings?


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

480sparky said:


> There's a union for Kings?



It's a secret society known as the Illuminators. :whistling2:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Peter D said:


> It's a secret society known as the Illuminators. :whistling2:


Oh, you mean the Masonarys?


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Oh, you mean the Masonarys?


I can neither confirm nor deny that.


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## RUSSIAN (Mar 4, 2008)

rewire said:


> i payed a comparable wage so no change their. the catalyst was a desire to provide health insurance and retirement benefits we had funds allocated for this but could not find a carier for a small shop that was within budget.Group plans were not available do to the number of employees and individual plans were great for the younger guys but the older ones would get stiffed. i asked the men if this was what they wanted and they agreed to talk with the organizer.


The world needs more people like you!:thumbsup:


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## Gompers (Feb 9, 2009)

Expelled from the IBEW FIVE times for FIVE charges, that's what I got for putting my families welfare before the IBEW's.

Yeah, rat or not - have to put food on the table and pay the bills. Unless of course your father or uncle is the B.M., or in office. 

Hey fellow & former brothers in #134, how's that number of *2484* treating you? Does your collective bargaining agreement prohibit you from obtaining a master electrician's liscense.

How long is the wait for a number like this? Bet your health benefits run out in six months like my local did to me & my family. ANYONE, I MEAN ANYONE who thinks working non-union to put F'IN FOOD on your table is a complete MORON and really needs to check thier IBEW history regarding "cards in shoes".

COMPLETE KOOL AID DRINKING MORONS!

YEAH LOOSE EVERYTHING JUST BECAUSE YOUR A MEMBER OUT OF WORK!

The wait 2484 what is it?


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## ArrrrrMatey (Oct 23, 2009)

Gompers said:


> Expelled from the IBEW FIVE times for FIVE charges


How did you get expelled 5 times?

What are you doing now?


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## Gompers (Feb 9, 2009)

Do some reading on a locked thread called "To Prove A Point"

Expelled five times for working non-union, and I refused to SALT.
Salted before and came up 15 hours short on my benefits when my number was up on the referal list. Crazy **** in my former local, crap you wouldn't believe, no-one would believe! 

Now, have my master liscense & insurance and building bank to bid public works jobs, joined ABC and have an open door to their apprenticeship program.

Hey, if the IBEW doesn't want me as a member, how could they have me as a contractor, HAT'S OFF TO LOCAL #25 and the MANAGEMENT 

Hey guys, instead of blowing hot air on this site - do some homework on your own local, starting with the LM-2's.

LM-2 is a government form for income on organizations just like unions, and the best part is it's public info, NO FOIL - NO WAIT - NO FUSS
DO SOME HOME WORK!

QUOTE FROM #25 B.M.:
"For those who are working, God bless you. To those who are not God help you"
This is right before he raised the minimum hours to be eligible for benefits, lowered the total slot time, and gave himself a raise to $143,212 (2008 LM-2)

Like I said, "To Prove A Point", do your homework!


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## ArrrrrMatey (Oct 23, 2009)

Gompers said:


> Expelled five times for working non-union,!


How do you get expelled 5 times? 

What do you mean when you say Expelled?


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## Gompers (Feb 9, 2009)

Expelled, as in KICKED OUT, SEE 'YA LATER, 
YOU ARE NOT A MEMBER ANYMORE

Charges are as filed:
Article XXV, section I, subsection (a) - expelled
Article XXV, section I, subsection (f) - expelled
Article XXV, section I, subsection (g) - expelled
Article XXV, section I, subsection (j) - expelled
Article XXV, section I, subsection (q) - expelled

Did I elaborate enough?


Like I said read the locked thread, "To Prove a Point".
When the moderators wish to un-lock the thread I will post some more. It was not locked due to my posting but the rash posts of others.


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## ArrrrrMatey (Oct 23, 2009)

Jesus Christ Gompers, why are you making this hard.

If expelled means you are not a member anymore, how did you get expelled 5 times? They let you back after each expulsion? How can you not understand the simple question I am asking?

All I want to know is the circumstances of you getting kicked out 5 separate times, if that's what you are saying.


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## Gompers (Feb 9, 2009)

How can you not understand the simple question I am asking?

Expelled five times in one session, for each charge I got expelled.
'They' can kick me out once or five times. Very simple, you can eat one hamburger at once or five. How about this, when go to McDonalds order one french fry and see what you get.

How can you not understand the simple question I am asking?

How can you not understand the simple charge of 5 consectutive life sentinces for a criminal sentence? I got your point of view, hold on while I type this..........................................................................


An anology:
Convicted killer gets five lifetime sentences, each time he dies in prison, he is brought back to life and serves his sentence again!
After five times, he's a free man - see how it works!

How can you not understand the simple question I am asking?

Any Questions?


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## ArrrrrMatey (Oct 23, 2009)

You were expelled *ONCE*.

This would have been a lot easier if you included more common sense in your posts.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

ArrrrrMatey said:


> You were expelled *ONCE*.
> 
> This would have been a lot easier if you included more common sense in your posts.


 
No, he was expelled five times. The reason.... if four charged are changed or reversed, he's still expelled.

It equate that to five life sentences for a criminal, if four sentences are commuted, reversed or dropped, the crook still spends the rest of his/her life in the Greybar Hotel.


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## ArrrrrMatey (Oct 23, 2009)

480sparky said:


> No, he was expelled five times. The reason.... if four charged are changed or reversed, he's still expelled.
> 
> It equate that to five life sentences for a criminal, if four sentences are commuted, reversed or dropped, the crook still spends the rest of his/her life in the Greybar Hotel.


I completely disagree. He was expelled, that is it.

If he were sentenced to die for each of 5 counts of murder, he is still only going to die once, just like he was only expelled once, not 5 times. 

You got poop on your shoe.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

ArrrrrMatey said:


> I completely disagree. He was expelled, that is it.
> 
> If he were sentenced to die for each of 5 counts of murder, he is still only going to die once, just like he was only expelled once, not 5 times.
> 
> You got poop on your shoe.


 
A person who is sentenced to die five times for five crimes can only be put to death once.... for one charge and one charge only. The other four sentences are unfulfilled.

Can you get off my shoe now?


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## ArrrrrMatey (Oct 23, 2009)

480sparky said:


> A person who is sentenced to die five times for five crimes can only be put to death once.... for one charge and one charge only. The other four sentences are unfulfilled.
> 
> Can you get off my shoe now?


EXACTLY, just like Gompers was only expelled once.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

ArrrrrMatey said:


> EXACTLY, just like Gompers was only expelled once.


 
He was expelled five times for five 'offences'. Because he CAN be expelled five times. But you can only _die_ ONCE.
























OK, yeah, some people die more than once, but it's probably not becuase one of them is because of lethal injection, hanging, firing squad, gas chamber or electric chair.


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## ArrrrrMatey (Oct 23, 2009)

He was expelled once :bangin:

It's "offenses" not "offences".


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

ArrrrrMatey said:


> He was expelled once :bangin:


Five times.



Gompers said:


> ..........
> Charges are as filed:
> Article XXV, section I, subsection (a) - expelled
> Article XXV, section I, subsection (f) - expelled
> ...


 
I see five charges. Don't you?


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## ArrrrrMatey (Oct 23, 2009)

480sparky said:


> I see five charges. Don't you?


Sure, and I see a man expelled from the local for it.


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## Gompers (Feb 9, 2009)

No, no - your missing the point.

If a convicted murderer is sentenced to death 5 times they just resurrect the guy and kill him over and over again.

So I guess while your driving & speeding no less on the same road at the same time and recieve the same ticket (twice) you should only pay once:jester:

How can you not understand the simple question I am asking?

Fella, guy, bub, bro, cous, let me give it to you this way:

FIVE SEPERATE CHARGES
FIVE SEPERATE OFFENSES
FIVE SEPERATE OUTCOMES

You seem to me the type the complicate the wire pull between Yellow 77, and Ideal Blue gel. Hold up and stop the show, call the boss, P.M. and the hall (don't forget the steward) and let's all figure this out.

"You got poop on your shoe."

You sniffing what I'm stepping in?
You picking up what I'm dropping?

And on a further note;
"Jesus Christ Gompers, why are you making this hard."

Jesus is not involved, he's the B.M. at Local #25, or so I'm told.


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## ArrrrrMatey (Oct 23, 2009)

Gompers said:


> FIVE SEPERATE CHARGES
> FIVE SEPERATE OFFENSES
> FIVE SEPERATE OUTCOMES


No, ONE single outcome, you were expelled.




> You seem to me the type the complicate the wire pull between Yellow 77, and Ideal Blue gel. Hold up and stop the show, call the boss, P.M. and the hall (don't forget the steward) and let's all figure this out.


 You seem like the guy who sensationalizes everything to make his point seem bigger and more profound.

You know that when you proclaim that you were expelled 5 times it sounds like 5 separate times (ongoing issues of coming back and getting kicked out again), but the fact is it was only one time that you were kicked out.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

ArrrMatey...... try this simple experiment:

Drive your car downtown, and find a No Parking Anytime spot. Park your car there for a few days. Once it's towed away, go to the impound yard and pick it up. How many parking tickets do you think will be on it? I'm willing to say at least two. Maybe three. Cold be more. Depends on how often the street is patrolled.

Now, you only parked there once, didn't you? Yet you have two or three tickets, right? Do you think if you pay only one you are going to get your car back?


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## ArrrrrMatey (Oct 23, 2009)

480sparky said:


> ArrrMatey...... try this simple experiment:
> 
> Drive your car downtown, and find a No Parking Anytime spot. Park your car there for a few days. Once it's towed away, go to the impound yard and pick it up. How many parking tickets do you think will be on it? I'm willing to say at least two. Maybe three. Cold be more. Depends on how often the street is patrolled.
> 
> Now, you only parked there once, didn't you? Yet you have two or three tickets, right? Do you think if you pay only one you are going to get your car back?


Let's say each one of those tickets was enough to have my car towed, and I had 5 tickets on my car. Should I say that my car was towed 5 times?

This is getting fun :thumbup:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

ArrrrrMatey said:


> Let's say each one of those tickets was enough to have my car towed, and I had 5 tickets on my car. Should I say that my car was towed 5 times?
> 
> This is getting fun :thumbup:


You car was only towed once. Having it towed was not a ticketing offence. The city (or whoever) did it to clear the street. And you only pay one tow fee, too.

But you still have five tickets even though you only parked there once.


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## Gompers (Feb 9, 2009)

Search for "To Prove a Point"

Kind of like Leonard Nemoy's old school show In Search Of?

Yes, you are absolutely correct, expelled once - my sincerest apologies.


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## ArrrrrMatey (Oct 23, 2009)

480sparky said:


> You car was only towed once. Having it towed was not a ticketing offence. The city (or whoever) did it to clear the street. And you only pay one tow fee, too.
> 
> But you still have five tickets even though you only parked there once.


Each time that the cop put a ticket on the car, it was a towable offense, but the towing company was backed up so they didn't get there for a few days. Over that time I got 4 more tickets, each a towable offense. So when they finally towed my car, they towed it 5 times. They just kept driving it back and forth. I was in the trunk at the time, it was hot.


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## Gompers (Feb 9, 2009)

You have to be my father in-law resurrected with dissecting the semantics. Hey bub, if your a union member or not, out of work or not, please take a time machine back to 1980, N.Y.C. local #3 and say hello to my F.I.L.


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## ArrrrrMatey (Oct 23, 2009)

Gompers said:


> You have to be my father in-law resurrected with dissecting the semantics. Hey bub, if your a union member or not, out of work or not, please take a time machine back to 1980, N.Y.C. local #3 and say hello to my F.I.L.


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

Ok. just throw out every work ethic away,and just compete .


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

Gompers made the world a lot better with his leadership and direction.The Coal miners owe him a lots of thanks. Gompers is a tough name to tag on to if you are union.



.


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## user5941 (Mar 16, 2009)

ArrrrrMatey said:


> You were expelled *ONCE*.
> 
> This would have been a lot easier if you included more common sense in your posts.


 Like most bitter people who want to be the hero of thier story you are probably not getting the whole story.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

rewire said:


> Like most bitter people who want to be the hero of thier story you are probably not getting the whole story.


You think?


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

I'll quote Brian John from a previously mentioned thread:



> Gompers:
> 
> Either I am on drugs or you are because I cannot connect the dots, heck I can't even see the dots.



Gomp, you have one seriously weird writing style of trying to get your point across. 
I also suggest you avoid trying to resurrect that old thread into this one.


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## Joe Tedesco (Mar 25, 2007)

*IBEW electricians meke over $150,000 a year*

IBEW electricians have been hired by my company here in IRAQ and they will have steady work for as long as they want! 

We have processed and trained over 1500 electricians during this year, some who were licensed and some who were trained and certified by the IBEW. 

They are all happy people and they came here so that they could keep their castle and family fed!


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## user5941 (Mar 16, 2009)

Joe Tedesco said:


> IBEW electricians have been hired by my company here in IRAQ and they will have steady work for as long as they want!
> 
> We have processed and trained over 1500 electricians during this year, some who were licensed and some who were trained and certified by the IBEW.
> 
> They are all happy people and they came here so that they could keep their castle and family fed!


 Hopefully it will end the fatalities from all the faulty wiring


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

People use electricity in Iraq nowadays? Amazing! 

Joe, got a job for me? I need a job living in a CHU, but still getting paid. Got anything like that?


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> People use electricity in Iraq nowadays? Amazing!
> 
> 
> 
> > Sure they use electric, you never seen a remote camel crankcase heater? You don't want their water to freeze up.


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## Joe Tedesco (Mar 25, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> People use electricity in Iraq nowadays? Amazing!
> 
> Joe, got a job for me? I need a job living in a CHU, but still getting paid. Got anything like that?


Mark:

If you are sincere, I can make it happen, but you have to act fast because the jobs are being filled for Masters. 

We just signed on over 100 electricians here and they are all licensed electricians, some IBEW too and will be here for a year, I am going home next week. This board has changed a great deal! 

Joe AKA "The Nail" :thumbup:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Heard on Forbes Business today the following


7% of the private work force is union

40% of the public work force is union

The 7 states with the highest union membership have the highest unemployment and lowest productivity per worker.

The 7 states with the lowest number of union members have the highest employment and highest productivity per worker.


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

brian john said:


> Heard on Forbes Business today the following
> 
> 
> 7% of the private work force is union
> ...


 
So do tell, which states?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

randomkiller said:


> So do tell, which states?


The only one mentioned was Michigan.


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## user5941 (Mar 16, 2009)

would be interesting to see what the median household income is for theses states


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

rewire said:


> would be interesting to see what the median household income is for theses states


Only when compared to the cost of living and how much the states take, I'd bet the 7 high union member states have the highest state taxes.


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

I stake the farm that NJ is on the bad side of that list.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

oldman said:


> I stake the farm that NJ is on the bad side of that list.


You could make money on that as a bet in Vegas.


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## user5941 (Mar 16, 2009)

top 3 states Union states
New York 24.9%
Hawaii 24.3%
Alaska 23.5%


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## Gompers (Feb 9, 2009)

Speedy Petey, A.K.A. site moderator, with out sarcasim I thank you.

I have been told that I have a particular style of different writing, I give it straight forward, the way I feel. Yellow journalism, meladramatic, sensationalism, call it what it is.
My life, and my families life will always feel disrupt from the 11 years I spent as a union electrician. Very tough times being out of work - horribly tough, a situation I wish not even on my worst enemy. Point is, many of the 'members' that were given Book-1 cards through organizing are in fact still working, overtime no-less, many brothers who followed through the academy are out of work. *POINT - *Something is not right, it's not me or my emotions, ****'s just not correct.

I joined a trade guild, a union, built upon the sacrfices of those before us, in efforts to better the future generations, sons & daughters to learn a trade. I come from an entire family of unionized folk, be it police unions, teachers unions, trade unions, I know first hand the importance thereof.

I will admit, the "Prove A Point" thread was with broad brush, please forgive me. In that token, learn from the post regarding mis-managment of your local union. It kills me to see or hear of the "suitcase local", should never happen, had the opportunity to work with a fleas, great life if that's your gig, sorry if not, those brothers were stand up guys.

BTW, Samuel Gompers was a stand on edge, Jewish, radical activist from humble beginings. I admire this man and his teachings.

Teachings;
Henry David Thoreau is my mentor and mainstay in this modern world, I follow many of this fellows thoughts, hence the writing style.

"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil, where as one striking at the root"

And that's my take

IBEW former member
NJATC graduate (the 5 1/2 show)
USAF active duty veteran
IAEI inspector
Master liscensed electrician
Disgruntled MOFO


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Gompers said:


> I have been told that I have a particular style of different writing, I give it straight forward, the way I feel. Yellow journalism, meladramatic, sensationalism, call it what it is.


I call it confusing as hell. :whistling2:

BTW, I don't remember which one of us closed that thread, but it obviously got too political. That is why it got closed.

I have no beef with your situation, what I can understand of it. :001_huh:


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## Gompers (Feb 9, 2009)

I don't how to give it straighter.

But thank you in all honesty Petey

Sarcasim, jokes, insults, and the latter have been hard to debate on-line.


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## Gompers (Feb 9, 2009)

Let's make something constructive out of this situation, an effort all adults would do in different parts of the country.

Anyone interested?
We will call the thread "A New Beginning"

Hopefuly *WE,* as union member or not will post, constuctively.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Gompers said:


> Let's make something constructive out of this situation, an effort all adults would do in different parts of the country.
> 
> Anyone interested?
> We will call the thread "A New Beginning"
> ...


And where is the fun in that?


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

brian john said:


> Heard on Forbes Business today the following
> 
> 
> 7% of the private work force is union
> ...


*And the worst jobs, the lowest standard of living, and the worst schools. Like Mississippi, Texas, Arkansas... *

*It's amazing what statistics can do these days.*


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

miller_elex said:


> Talked to my buddy who has been off work 4 months. He caved and took a non-union job last week. Some fire alarm shop that does alot of hospital work. I wished him luck, he told me it was just to keep bankruptcy at bay until the books clear up and that he feels like a douchebag.
> 
> My best advice was to avoid the prevailing-wage work, but I can't help feeling that working on hospital campuses, he is going to be recognized sooner or later


Wow... nice thread!

Tell him to wear a large hardhat and glasses and a fake moustache. Push comes to shove a man has to do what a man has to do. That said, nobody this day and age should ever depend on only one source of income. There are people out there I work with who live week to week, a simple 4 week layoff would result in late-paid bills for months, and that is not a position anyone relying on the income from construction work should ever be in.



BCSparkyGirl said:


> I think this is BS. Why should anyone be penalized in this day and age for making sure that they don't go bankrupt or lose their home. How come his "brothers" don't cough up the cash to make sure that this doesnt happen to him?
> 
> *Some locals have supplementary unemployment funds. In others, working only 4 months a year is totally normal. Some locals run on reduced hours so more members are employed, but this causes contractors to hire more people and puts a strain on the medical benefits system due to the way it's financed. *
> 
> ...


*How wonderful for you. You're in good position, but it's not the complete picture. I know a few nonunion electricians too, they're never unemployed either, but there are others who work wiith them who are told "take a month off we got nothing" and there is NO unemployment paid. If they file, they'll never be hired again. (And don't think nonunion shop owners don't keep lists.)* 



brian john said:


> I think with times like they are the local should operate with blinders on.
> 
> *I think most do. Besides, do you think locals have spies looking for union members working on nonunion jobs?*
> 
> ...


*In a way it's helping them. His working nonunion is preventing another nonunion electrician from being employed. That guy or girl might now decide this isn't the business for them and stop working in the trade. *



edward said:


> the crew i work (non-union) just hired a union electrician. im glad he is with us, im learning alot from him. its scary though, he said he is number 237 on a list of 250 or something.
> 
> that is what has always scared me about joining the union. im only 22, im gonna be the low man where ever i go, how am i going to get a steady check? i suppose right now its not really that great union or non-union, im glad i know how to live simply!


*You're learning a lot because that's how union workers operate - teach teach teach. Discover a new trick? Spread it! Everyone benefits. Having worked nonunion I met many who kept everything they knew to themselves - it insures tenure through the bad times. *

*If you got into construction and expected a steady paycheck, you got into the wrong business. Your not a banker on salary. Like it or not, construction work has always been cyclical. Feast or famine. The rule of thumb is always live within your means and do not get into debt. *

*The economy now is especially bleak, but this happens every 10 years or so anyway, like clockwork. *




Sparky480 said:


> The local im in doesn't think that will ever work so we are not allowed to move jobs. Its the most ridiculous thing i have ever heard of. The last contractor that I worked for wanted to keep me he kept me my whole apprenticeship sent emails and letters to our BM and they still made them lay me off. So now you have to be faced with making a decison of you have to do what you have to do. Buying a house in November of last year and getting laid off in January is a scary thing. Thank god I have family members to lean on in slow times for work.


*You're not supposed to work for one shop your entire apprenticeship. Don't let the shop stroke your ego with their kudos - they have an adjenda- they're grooming you for their benefit, not yours. We lay off and rotate every 6 months - no exceptions. An apprentice needs to be exposed to different shops with different management styles and different journeymen and foremen with different ways of doing things in order to turn out free-thinking, well exposed, well-rounded journeyman, employable anywhere doing anything. *

*Stay with one shop your entire apprenticeship and you'll be a lost puppy with deer-in-the-headlights look the first day you report to a job and shop you haven't done before.* 



Sparky480 said:


> Big time is an understatement!! We have almost 300 guys out of work who are traveling to Albany and upstate state NY but when you ask the business manager about making a market recovery rate he says that no matter what he will not lower the rate. So instead these guys with family's have to live in a hotel for the weeks come home on weekends for 12 bucks less an hour than if they were working here. When they can set a market recovery rate and gain work back and keep guys working close to home.


*Market recovery rate is the first step towards lowering prevailing rate. It didn't work for many locals that tried it. This economy is in an exceptionally bad tailspin, nothing any local can do is going to make it all better for every member. Lowering the rate to work locally is not going to make the banks want to loan money, or jobs start to appear. *



TheRick said:


> HMMMM..........now what is it that gives union guys a bad name..........no wait I will think of it..........give me a minute..........oh yeah now I remember..........
> GUYS WITH ATTITUDES LIKE YOURS! :laughing:


*Perhaps it does give union members a bad name, but a bad name by the rats so... who really cares what they think? :thumbsup:*



TheRick said:


> Secondly, you didn't "win" me anything....I am not in the Union.
> 
> *Unions won you weekends, personal days, vacations, holidays, benefits, workers comp, disability, social security... everything you do, see, and know as a middle class American was brought to you by the efforts of unions. Now the unions have been under attack for decades as being everything that is wrong with America, and the middle class is disappearing, and the country is going into the crapper. *
> 
> *Coincidence?*





Lone Crapshooter said:


> If the IBEW has done so much for the working man how they only let a select few in the locals.
> THEY WERE NOT THERE FOR ME WHEN I NEEDED THEM.
> I WORKED NONSIGNITURED BECAUSE OF THE IBEW.
> I AM A ELECTRICIAN INSPITE OF THE IBEW NOT BECAUSE OF THE IBEW.
> LC


*So, the IBEW is bad because everyone isn't working and it's bad because it doesn't have an open membership. Darned if you do, darned if you don't.*



TheRick said:


> My boss, and I, have no worries about having a union around, there isn't one. Funny thing is.....my pay and benefits are better than any other electrician I know, union or non union. My last job was also non union, and pay and benefits were right in line with the union work in the area......but I made much more annually, because I actually worked the entire year, not just 6 - 8 months.
> *...said the man who can't find work at home and has to travel 1/2 way around the planet for a job. Can you say all your nonunion brethern have the SAME experience with pay, benefits, and employment? *
> 
> Yes unions had there time and place, but they are outdated (in my opinion). The sweat shops are gone!
> ...


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Wow... nice thread!
> [/B]


Where have you been?


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

brian john said:


> Where have you been?


Rocking the clock, 4 weeks of vacations, and bought 2 foreclosures. Had to completely gut. This all better be worth it...


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Gompers I read the entire closed thread "To prove a point" and Part II... You've been in 25 since 1966?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Rocking the clock, 4 weeks of vacations, and bought 2 foreclosures. Had to completely gut. This all better be worth it...


We missed you *NOT*:laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

brian john said:


> We missed you *NOT*:laughing::laughing::laughing:


I know you missed me... with every shot so far.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Oh man .... look what crawled back up out of the cesspool.


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

Welcome back LGLS.


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## sparky970 (Mar 19, 2008)

edward said:


> the crew i work (non-union) just hired a union electrician. im glad he is with us, im learning alot from him. its scary though, he said he is number 237 on a list of 250 or something.
> 
> that is what has always scared me about joining the union. im only 22, im gonna be the low man where ever i go, how am i going to get a steady check? i suppose right now its not really that great union or non-union, im glad i know how to live simply!


So he is working a non-union job and is still on the books? Bad, bad, bad.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

sparky970 said:


> So he is working a non-union job and is still on the books? Bad, bad, bad.


Not in my opinion.

Wants to, needs to feed the family, there is no work and there may not be any work for sometime. When work picks up he wants to be with his bro.s, most likely making more money FOR HIS FAMILY.

Seems like the essence of Red, White and Blue oh and staying of the government dole.


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## user5941 (Mar 16, 2009)

I drove a delivery truck, I painted houses,I worked nites in a gas station, I cut wood,I did landscaping,I was a bouncer at a local bar,I refinished furniture I did all these things to feed my family but I never worked as an electrician for a non union company without the expressed permission of my local union.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

rewire said:


> I drove a delivery truck, I painted houses,I worked nites in a gas station, I cut wood,I did landscaping,I was a bouncer at a local bar,I refinished furniture I did all these things to feed my family but I never worked as an electrician for a non union company without the expressed permission of my local union.


And that is your choice, BUT if you could get scale on a federal project over landscaping you'd take the lesser money? I'd have to question more than your ethics. NOT A SLAM just in my opinion common sense, with 4 kids 3 in college I'd do what I had too.

But then HOPEFULLY your local has common sense and understands a man and a families needs.


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## nysparky (Jan 26, 2009)

maybe the local union would let you go work for the non-union shop to help try to organize them. or try traveling. I know plenty of people who have traveled to provide money and healthcare to their family back at home. doin what u gotta do doesn't have to mean making making money for your competion!!!


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

nysparky said:


> maybe the local union would let you go work for the non-union shop to help try to organize them. or try traveling. I know plenty of people who have traveled to provide money and healthcare to their family back at home. doin what u gotta do doesn't have to mean making making money for your competion!!!


 
Traveling, WHERE? not like anywhere else in the states is FLUSH with work.


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## user5941 (Mar 16, 2009)

brian john said:


> And that is your choice, BUT if you could get scale on a federal project over landscaping you'd take the lesser money? I'd have to question more than your ethics. NOT A SLAM just in my opinion common sense, with 4 kids 3 in college I'd do what I had too.
> 
> But then HOPEFULLY your local has common sense and understands a man and a families needs.


 we

We have a suppliment that pays with unemployment that replaced 90% of my income usually around three months then I worked two or three jobs cut back on expenses and tapped savings but I never gave up my integrity.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

When I was laid off n the early 80's there were 1,250 men ahead of me, no cash fund for supplementing unemployment, no insurance past the time I had worked for and the state of Virginia was payinig 112 dollars a week with a 4-6 month wait for 1st unemployment check. I lived alone and had a mortgage and car payment (no wife no kids).

I asked the local for guidance and was told to do what I had to to pay my bills.


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## user5941 (Mar 16, 2009)

brian john said:


> When I was laid off n the early 80's there were 1,250 men ahead of me, no cash fund for supplementing unemployment, no insurance past the time I had worked for and the state of Virginia was payinig 112 dollars a week with a 4-6 month wait for 1st unemployment check. I lived alone and had a mortgage and car payment (no wife no kids).
> 
> I asked the local for guidance and was told to do what I had to to pay my bills.


 The Carter years what fond memories..NOT.


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## Stan B. (Jul 25, 2008)

Sometimes bankruptcy is the best option.

The wealthy certainly don't give it anything near the same stigma that the middle class does.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Stan B. said:


> Sometimes bankruptcy is the best option.
> 
> The wealthy certainly don't give it anything near the same stigma that the middle class does.


So if a rich person goes bankrupt it means nothing? or are you saying it is better to continue to employee men when there is no work till the point where the EC runs out of money and then defaults to his creditors.

I assume there is some logic to your statement?


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Talked to my buddy, he brought up his job situation.

The non-union fire alarm shop he was working at on the down-low told him they were bringing a new guy out to the job who was from his hometown. He asked who it was, and he didn't recognize the name, but they said he had been laid-off from XYZ fire alarm contractor (who is signatory.)

Now he is all paranoid that the guy is a salt, and he is going to be found out. He said he doesn't know what to do, just wait patiently and see what happens. He said the company is super-impressed with his quality of work, attention to details, and workman-like attitude, and they asked him to reccommend more unemployed brothers like him to bring onboard.


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## sparky105 (Sep 29, 2009)

rlc3854 said:


> So true. However, since the union electricians only make up 3% of the country's electrical work force by definition the union workers should start calling themselfs rats picking up leftover work that the non-union shops haven't taken. And also for not being able to learn new tricks to pick up additional work and put their members to work.


there are 750 000 member of the IBEW so with your statement of 3% of the electrians are union than that means there ar3 are over 25 million non union electricians in north america may be you exaggerate just a bite hmm:no:


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

sparky105 said:


> there are 750 000 member of the IBEW so with your statement of 3% of the electrians are union than that means there ar3 are over 25 million non union electricians in north america may be you exaggerate just a bite hmm:no:


 Actually its more like 7.2 million electrical workers in the us according to the DOL and 2006 census, but there are something like 725,000 IBEW members which make it about 10% for the electrical work force. 

Which make the "750 thousand people cant be wrong" argument a bit ridiculous when you consider that is only 1 out of 10.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Which country are we arguing about? Canada (where sparks105 is) or US (PhatElvis' digs)?


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Which country are we arguing about? Canada (where sparks105 is) or US (PhatElvis' digs)?


 Ooops the US. 

On a side note if we are going to call non-union electricians "rats" , that is only fair we start referring to Union Electricians as "dead beats" or maybe the more politically correct "slackers". 

As long as we have the big paint brush out, lets paint both sides of the fence.


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## sparky105 (Sep 29, 2009)

PhatElvis said:


> Actually its more like 7.2 million electrical workers in the us according to the DOL and 2006 census, but there are something like 725,000 IBEW members which make it about 10% for the electrical work force.
> 
> Which make the "750 thousand people cant be wrong" argument a bit ridiculous when you consider that is only 1 out of 10.


 I don't think that is licenced C of Q persons if you check that dol list under search word electrician it is alot less It reads 705 000 employed so I don't think this is a accurate source of information however that wasn't my point it was that 3% was a number pulled out of the hat and not accurate.


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

That site has changed. Now add up all the SOC codes to find the number.

47-2111 Electrical installer
49-2091 Electrical installer
49-9051 Electrical lineman
19-4041 Electrical logger
19-4041 Electrical logging operator
51-4041 Electrical machinist
47-2111 Electrical maintenance man
19-4041 Electrical prospecting operator
47-2111 Electrical sign servicer
11-1021 Electrical superintendent
47-2111 Electrical system specialist
51-9061 Electrical tester
49-2096 Electrical tryout person
47-2111 Electrical wirer
51-2022 Electrical wirer
51-9199 Electrical worker
49-2096 Electrician \ n.s.
47-2111 Electrician \ n.s.
49-2091 Electrician, airplane
49-2096 Electrician, automotive
47-2111 Electrician, chief
49-2093 Electrician, locomotive
49-2022 Electrician, office
49-2095 Electrician, powerhouse
49-2021 Electrician, radio
49-2095 Electrician, substation

The last time I looked it up took, it took a while to get the geusstamate from uncle sam.


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## sparky970 (Mar 19, 2008)

PhatElvis said:


> Ooops the US.
> 
> On a side note if we are going to call non-union electricians "rats" , that is only fair we start referring to Union Electricians as "dead beats" or maybe the more politically correct "slackers".
> 
> As long as we have the big paint brush out, lets paint both sides of the fence.


Why exactly are union electricians "slackers"?


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

sparky970 said:


> Why exactly are union electricians "slackers"?


Why exactly are non-union electricians "rats"

As I stated in my original post if we are going to paint with a big brush lets do both sides for the fence. Obviously not all union electricians are slackers, but there are some very good people who are non-union too. I was only trying to point out the stupidity of the name calling.


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## sparky105 (Sep 29, 2009)

I don't have it in me argue that union are slackers or non union are rats this tread is about working out of the local.
We have a contract that says you don't work non union unless you have been ok'd to salt. 
It sucks to be out of work and you have to eat so there is a double edge sword being presented.
I'm not unemployed and haven't been for the past 4 yrs so I can't say what I would do but you do what you have to feed your family. 
I made over a hundred grand for the last 6 years in the union and I know my buddies that are non union don't ever get close to that here in Ontario seeing as money is the reason that i work I say IBEW rocks:notworthy:


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## sparky105 (Sep 29, 2009)

PhatElvis said:


> That site has changed. Now add up all the SOC codes to find the number.
> 
> 47-2111 Electrical installer
> 49-2091 Electrical installer
> ...


leave it to gov to make it hard to get info


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

PhatElvis said:


> ..............
> 49-2096 Electrical tryout person
> ..............


_Electrical tryout person_? WTF is that? Someone who tries out new electrical stuff?


"Well, let's see what we have today to try out. Hmm. It has a cord, so it's electrical. Let's plug it in and see what it doe*BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZT*!"


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

480sparky said:


> _Electrical tryout person_? WTF is that? Someone who tries out new electrical stuff?
> 
> 
> "Well, let's see what we have today to try out. Hmm. It has a cord, so it's electrical. Let's plug it in and see what it doe*BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZT*!"


nah, these are they guys who show up for every apprentice exam, but never get picked...


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

*Titties*

Here is the full list, I dited out the non-sense on the first one:

49-9031 Electric appliance installer
51-4121 Electric arc welder
53-7064 Electric blanket packer
53-7051 Electric car operator
51-9012 Electric cell tender
53-7021 Electric crane operator
51-6062 Electric cutter operator
51-9061 Electric detector operator
51-9061 Electric distribution checker
53-7051 Electric dolly operator
47-5021 Electric drill operator
51-4051 Electric furnace operator
49-9051 Electric installer
51-6062 Electric knife operator
53-7051 Electric lift truck driver
53-4012 Electric locomotive firer/fireman
49-9012 Electric meter installer
43-5041 Electric meter reader
51-9061 Electric meter tester
49-2092 Electric motor analyst
49-2092 Electric motor fitter
49-2092 Electric motor rebuilder
51-9061 Electric motor tester
53-4041 Electric motorman
53-7051 Electric mule driver
53-7051 Electric mule operator
51-8013 Electric operator
49-2097 Electric organ checker
51-4193 Electric plater
51-9199 Electric power machine operator
49-9051 Electric powerline examiner
51-9061 Electric relay tester
53-7032 Electric scoop operator
51-2099 Electric screw driver operator
51-9191 Electric sealing machine operator
49-9051 Electric serviceman
47-4071 Electric sewer cleaning machine operator
53-7032 Electric shovel operator
47-2111 Electric sign wirer
51-4121 Electric solderer
51-4121 Electric spot welder
47-2111 Electric stop installer
49-9097 Electric track switch maintainer
51-9199 Electric transfer operator
51-9199 Electric tripper machine operator
53-7051 Electric truck driver
53-7051 Electric truck operator
53-7051 Electric trucker
51-4121 Electric welder
19-4041 Electric well logging operator
47-2111 Electric wirer
51-2022 Electric wirer
49-9031 Electrical appliance servicer
51-2093 Electrical calibrator
11-9021 Electrical contractor, administration or general management
47-1011 Electrical contractor, exc. administrator or general manager
51-4199 Electrical discharge machine operator
51-4199 Electrical discharge machine set up operator
17-3012 Electrical drafter
51-9061 Electrical equipment tester
47-2111 Electrical installer
49-2091 Electrical installer
49-9051 Electrical lineman
19-4041 Electrical logger
19-4041 Electrical logging operator
51-4041 Electrical machinist
47-2111 Electrical maintenance man
19-4041 Electrical prospecting observer
19-4041 Electrical prospecting operator
47-2111 Electrical sign servicer
51-4121 Electrical solderer
11-1021 Electrical superintendent
47-2111 Electrical system specialist
51-9061 Electrical tester
49-2096  Electrical tryout person
47-2111 Electrical wirer
51-2022 Electrical wirer
51-9199 Electrical worker
49-2096 Electrician \ n.s.
47-2111 Electrician \ n.s.
49-2091 Electrician, airplane
49-2096 Electrician, automotive
47-2111 Electrician, chief
49-2093 Electrician, locomotive
49-2022 Electrician, office
49-2095 Electrician, powerhouse
49-2021 Electrician, radio
49-2095 Electrician, substation
17-3023 Electrification adviser
51-6099 Electrifier operator

I cant believe they actually have a category for "Electric Blanket Packer".


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## traveler (Sep 15, 2009)

First off, your friend needs to do the right thing, and go down and talk to the BA about his situation.

It IS in fact wrong TECHNICALLY to work rat while you are signatory. Undermining your brothers at the hall is a *RAT* move. UNLESS it has been approved through the BA. Does you friend not know this????

A Rat electrician is someone who does half-a$$ed work, just throws stuff in and has ZERO workmanship. Don't like it? TOUGH. If the shoe fits...wear it. If it dosen't, then don't sweat it.

Wanna call me a slacker? I really don't care.

Your "friend" needs to either talk to the BA and get it straightened out, or quit the union and go 100% non union.

You can't have it both ways. We don't need any double breasted brothers.

Maybe some of the brothers jsut need to turn him in, and make the "tough call" for him.

If he needs work, then do side work, cash under the table. That way you're only taking business away from the bottom dollar bidding RAT shops that are worthless anyway. What he is doing now is traitorous.

I'll never understand all you non-union guys/gals coming on the UNION portion of the website, and trying to "convert" us into whatever you are.

~Joe


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

traveler said:


> I'll never understand all you non-union guys/gals coming on the UNION portion of the website, and trying to "convert" us into whatever you are.


Do you SERIOUSLY think this???

Also, this is not the "union portion". It is the union "topics" portion. 
I think some folks misinterpret this as being is for union people only.


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## traveler (Sep 15, 2009)

no, I don't

But....

If you don't like the union, then WHY go into the union section and complain about it?

To see one problem with the union, and then go off thinking that EVERYONE is like that is as foolish as calling you a rat, when I have never seen your work.

If you do piss poor quality work, and jsut throw work in, and there is no craftsmanship to it, then you are a RAT.

If you are in the union, and you wnat to take a job to get by until work picks up, then you either:

1. Get a job doing something else (like I did, BTW)
2. Talk to the BA about it. (contrary to what you have been told, MOST BA's are nice guy's...they are electrician's and they are not unreasonable....fact is, they will probably point you towards someone doing side work).

This guys is in the wrong, and he knows it, that's why he is "paranoid".

Talking to the BA about it, will smooth everything over.

If I were his BA, I'd tell him to keep at it, and maybe have him casually mention the benefits of union membership to some of them at lunch...(kind of a soft salt).

~Joe


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

traveler said:


> A Rat electrician is someone who does half-a$$ed work, just throws stuff in and has ZERO workmanship. Don't like it? TOUGH. If the shoe fits...wear it. If it dosen't, then don't sweat it.
> 
> Maybe some of the brothers jsut need to turn him in, and make the "tough call" for him.
> 
> ~Joe


This is a great website, people can come here anonymously and speak their mind.

Speaking your piece helps take a mental load off, and deal with reality.

I don't understand why you feel this way, it is an awfully bad attitude towards other people in general, whoever they are or wherever they come from. I can understand that you do have some unresolved emotional issues and look for groups of people that you hate do dump baggage on.

Feel however you want, and remain civilized. But if that sh1t ever comes out loud, you are entitled to one free ass whoopin to calibrate your attitude.


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## traveler (Sep 15, 2009)

SO, I take it the shoe fits then?

I have no hate for anyone. Just tellin' it how it is. That man joined the union. You wnat to be union, then you play by the rules.

You seem more than ready to write me off as someone who could be easily beaten.

things aren't always as they may seem...I'll leave it at that.

And here I thought you were a good guy. Now you want to try to Psych me out.....

~Joe


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