# Basement Layout - How does it look?



## NDC (Jan 12, 2016)

There are 2 pot lights directly in front of the wall mount TV that I may delete. My client says the room will get converted into a party room frequently though.
There is an exit to a walk out patio with french doors.
There are two entrances to the basement from the main floor and they are already wired to two separate lights at the basement landing. I would Ideally like to have one light operated by either switch. Any suggestions?

Be as critical as you like! I'm still very new to designing layouts.

Edit: I forgot a jumper to a pot above the toilet.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Nice. No switches at the patio door (indoor/outdoor lighting)? Do they want more exterior receptacles since you have access?


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I still think the lighting in the main room is crazy. 

2 rows of 5 would be plenty of light for everything other than nano-surgery.


----------



## NDC (Jan 12, 2016)

99cents said:


> Nice. No switches at the patio door (indoor/outdoor lighting)? Do they want more exterior receptacles since you have access?


Yeah there is already a switch to an exterior light. I guess the builder did it. Should I add a 3 way at the patio door for the rec room lights? Is that code?


----------



## NDC (Jan 12, 2016)

HackWork said:


> I still think the lighting in the main room is crazy.
> 
> 2 rows of 5 would be plenty of light for everything other than nano-surgery.


That room is 17 x 38. Three rows on a dimmer I think is less risky than not having enough light don't you think?


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

NDC said:


> That room is 17 x 38. Three rows on a dimmer I think is less risky than not having enough light don't you think?


Or maybe bump up to 6" for a few bucks more. 

BTW, I am not saying to listen to me, it's just that it seems like a lot of lights.


----------



## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

HackWork said:


> I still think the lighting in the main room is crazy.
> 
> 2 rows of 5 would be plenty of light for everything other than nano-surgery.


It's wicked bright yo.


----------



## NDC (Jan 12, 2016)

Added the panel picture which is full. I may need to price out a sub panel too but I know anyone else quoting will just add mini breakers to make room.


----------



## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

NDC said:


> Added the panel picture which is full. I may need to price out a sub panel too but I know anyone else quoting will just add mini breakers to make room.


You have to stress the NEED for it vs the lower bidder....Or offer some sort of grouping discount, yeah?


----------



## PlugsAndLights (Jan 19, 2016)

Fewer pots.
1 receptacle in hall is plenty. 
1 receptacle each side of expected bed location. Not code but I still it consider
a minimum. 
P&L


----------



## PlugsAndLights (Jan 19, 2016)

I avoid putting more than 3 switches in a single box. Too hard to remember 
what does what. Like to break them into 2 2gangs, or whatever makes sense. 
P&L


----------



## NDC (Jan 12, 2016)

Some really good input here. Thanks fellas


----------



## NDC (Jan 12, 2016)

PlugsAndLights said:


> I avoid putting more than 3 switches in a single box. Too hard to remember
> what does what. Like to break them into 2 2gangs, or whatever makes sense.
> P&L


For the little kitchenette I will likely separate the two switch banks as suggested. One two for pots in open space and two for kitchenette (under cabinet/pots)


----------



## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

Depending on the elevation of the building's sewer outlet you may need a macerator pump for the new bathroom in the basement.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

NDC said:


> That room is 17 x 38. Three rows on a dimmer I think is less risky than not having enough light don't you think?


Absolutely. Imagine if you put this plan on your tablet and combined it with photos of previous jobs and catalog cuts of the products you like to use. You're miles ahead of Bare Bones Electric and his quote written on a piece of cardboard with a felt pen. You can sit down with the customer and discuss priorities and budget professionally.

This is something I'm working on myself since, previously, I had GC's and interior designers do it for me.

Ignore the guys who say you can do it with ten fixtures. Sure you can but 21 will give you very nice uniformity. If there are budget concerns, you can reduce your fixture count but your customer can expect dark spots. If you recommend ten and you have dark spots then you're in a chit load of trouble.

You're better off presenting the gold plan and trimming the fat to meet budget. If you start with bronze, you might turn it into silver but gold will be impossible.

Think like a plumber. A plumber will sell a jetted tub with all the bells and whistles. If an electrician went into plumbing, he would sell a beat up tub from the clearance section at HD because "that's all they need".


----------



## BlueOval5272 (Jul 25, 2015)

I think 3 ways on the stairways and from the main switches to the French doors would be a great addition while you're still able to easily get them done. Maybe even a 4 way for the stairways, one at the bottom and one at each landing upstairs. I assume the jumper you are missing for the toilet can is wired in with the exhaust fan? If not I think that would also be a good idea. Also having that many cans in a room I would suggest zoning them so you don't have everything on at once. Will you be using led trims on these? Seems like a lot of lighting on one switch if not, especially if dimmers will be used. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

You have laid this out almost exactly how I would do it. I'm with P & L, though. I rarely install anything more than three gangs.

Put a damn alarm on that fridge if you have to arc fault it  .


----------



## NDC (Jan 12, 2016)

BlueOval5272 said:


> I think 3 ways on the stairways and from the main switches to the French doors would be a great addition while you're still able to easily get them done. Maybe even a 4 way for the stairways, one at the bottom and one at each landing upstairs. I assume the jumper you are missing for the toilet can is wired in with the exhaust fan? If not I think that would also be a good idea. Also having that many cans in a room I would suggest zoning them so you don't have everything on at once. Will you be using led trims on these? Seems like a lot of lighting on one switch if not, especially if dimmers will be used.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Hi the entire basement lighting will be on one circuit. The 37 pots are slim led panels 12W


----------



## NDC (Jan 12, 2016)

99cents said:


> You have laid this out almost exactly how I would do it. I'm with P & L, though. I rarely install anything more than three gangs.
> 
> Put a damn alarm on that fridge if you have to arc fault it  .


There is a mini fridge that I will have to afci but it's just for drinks. The larger fridge near the south wall will be dedicated and no afci.


----------



## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

8 outlets at the tv and prewire for badass sound system. Maybe outlets and sound high up on the wall behind the tv to hide the rat's nest.

You don't show power in the utility room for washer & dryer and an iron.


----------



## NDC (Jan 12, 2016)

So far for circuits I'm at:
2 x 15 amp AFCI for general use receptacles + bar fridge
1 x 15 amp AFCI for microwave
1 x 15 amp tandem for full size fridge + bathroom circuit
1 X 20 amp for kitchen counter receptacles
1 x 15 amp tandem for lighting ( Split into two zones)

I miss anything?


----------



## NDC (Jan 12, 2016)

MikeFL said:


> 8 outlets at the tv and prewire for badass sound system. Maybe outlets and sound high up on the wall behind the tv to hide the rat's nest.
> 
> You don't show power in the utility room for washer & dryer and an iron.


Hi, the laundry is on the main floor. It's actually a furnace room. No laundry circuits or oven in the basement.
That center outlet is actually behind the wall mounted television.


----------



## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Do you think possibly a microwave would need 20a? Did you add coffee to your list?


----------



## BlueOval5272 (Jul 25, 2015)

Majewski said:


> Do you think possibly a microwave would need 20a? Did you add coffee to your list?




I would agree that this would be an ideal area to over wire. You may never need it but it helps avoid issues if any were to arise


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

I just don't play around with microwave runs. I could see a fridge area not needing 20 but some fancy salesman is going to sell some fancy microwave and that thing will be the death of me. lol


----------



## NDC (Jan 12, 2016)

Somehow I'm at 11,500 + tax for this job and that's with reorganizing the panel with tandems. Closer to 12 grand if I add a sub panel. I am likely not going to get this job.


----------



## mdnitedrftr (Aug 21, 2013)

Few observations....

- I think its too many lights, but if it ends up being too bright, you can always throw a dimmer on it.
- You don't need all those plugs in the hallway.
- Depending on what kind of exercise equipment they have, you may want to run a dedicated 20A over there. 
- Under cabinet lighting at the bar?


----------



## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Give options for half lights?


----------



## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Majewski said:


> Do you think possibly a microwave would need 20a? Did you add coffee to your list?





BlueOval5272 said:


> I would agree that this would be an ideal area to over wire. You may never need it but it helps avoid issues if any were to arise


I agree, a lot of appliances draw a lot of current, and people often run two at the same time. You could use @PlugsAndLights idea from another thread and run 12/3 there instead of 14/2.


----------



## splatz (May 23, 2015)

NDC said:


> Somehow I'm at 11,500 + tax for this job and that's with reorganizing the panel with tandems. Closer to 12 grand if I add a sub panel. I am likely not going to get this job.


If you really think you're going to get beat, hand them something with code minimums as the base price and options for the 

subpanel upgrade 
lighting upgrade 
entertainment upgrade 

Show them that nice drawing, but don't let them have a copy of it  

Did you take their temperature before this, see if they are more like 

barebones people already over budget 
do it right people with money to cover the upgrades


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

I would be somewhere under $8000.00 with minimal demo. A sub isn't a big deal. Total finished cost for that basement will be $50,000.00-ish depending on flooring, etc.


----------



## PlugsAndLights (Jan 19, 2016)

NDC said:


> So far for circuits I'm at:
> 2 x 15 amp AFCI for general use receptacles + bar fridge
> 1 x 15 amp AFCI for microwave
> 1 x 15 amp tandem for full size fridge + bathroom circuit
> ...



No AFCI for fridge? Did you see this thread? Specifically post 26?
P&L
http://www.electriciantalk.com/f31/stupid-arc-faults-198369/index2/


----------



## NDC (Jan 12, 2016)

PlugsAndLights said:


> No AFCI for fridge? Did you see this thread? Specifically post 26?
> P&L
> http://www.electriciantalk.com/f31/stupid-arc-faults-198369/index2/


Wow thanks for posting that. I must have missed it. Would have been a real pita if I got the job and missed that. So the price just went up!


----------



## NDC (Jan 12, 2016)

99cents said:


> I would be somewhere under $8000.00 with minimal demo. A sub isn't a big deal. Total finished cost for that basement will be $50,000.00-ish depending on flooring, etc.


I'm at just over 4 grand for pot lights alone. I need to rework the number. I just pull prices out of my [email protected]$ and I could really use the work.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

NDC said:


> I'm at just over 4 grand for pot lights alone. I need to rework the number. I just pull prices out of my [email protected]$ and *I could really use the work.*


Then be up front with the customer. Say that you are establishing your business and that building a portfolio, reputation and client base are extremely important to you right now. You plan on being in business ten years from now. Tell them you want to work with them, do the best possible job for them and don't want price to stand in the way. In return, they can give you good reviews and referrals. I have clients with a standing invitation to visit with prospective clients to see the quality of my work. That's worth something.

This is assuming you have a quality client. If he's a lowlife dirtbag, it's not worth the effort.

Crunch the numbers and see if you can do a really nice job and still make it worth your while. We all had to bite the bullet starting out.


----------



## NDC (Jan 12, 2016)

99cents said:


> I would be somewhere under $8000.00 with minimal demo. A sub isn't a big deal. Total finished cost for that basement will be $50,000.00-ish depending on flooring, etc.


I keep chipping away and i'm at 8500+hst
How do you get to under 8 grand?


----------



## Canaduh (Aug 31, 2016)

Hey there I am almost 100% sure than if you finish a basement with a walk out, you have to have be able to turn on the lights from the walk out.... I don't know where the code for it is but my boss always does it... If it's not a code rule then ignore this... maybe someone more experience could confirm...


----------



## splatz (May 23, 2015)

NDC said:


> I'm at just over 4 grand for pot lights alone. I need to rework the number. I just pull prices out of my [email protected]$ and I could really use the work.





NDC said:


> I keep chipping away and i'm at 8500+hst
> How do you get to under 8 grand?


Number one, we all pull the price out of our ass to an extent. I go through the detailed estimating worksheet which is a necessary exercise to make sure I have a good handle on the job and the materials part and I have a good handle on ALL the tasks involved. 

Remember, you don't take a bath because you priced your labor a little low, you take a bath when you miss things, when you fail to factor in things that are going to add days to the job. IMO. 

Sanity check your estimate. Look at your materials cost and ask yourself, how many days is it going to take? (Answer should probably be a range.) The materials cost is not too hard to estimate accurately, the days takes experience to estimate accurately. Divide up the job into pieces and figure out how long each piece will take. You should have a pretty clear timeline for your work. 

It's OK to have to work long hours at first to make up for optimistic labor estimates. Especially if you're not real busy. You are going to make some mistakes. Going too low may not be sustainable long term but going too high is not even sustainable short term. 

How many days do you think this job will take you? How long just to do the lights?


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

NDC said:


> So far for circuits I'm at:
> 2 x 15 amp AFCI for general use receptacles + bar fridge
> 1 x 15 amp AFCI for microwave
> 1 x 15 amp tandem for full size fridge + bathroom circuit
> ...


2 x 15 amp AFCI receptacle for general use receptacles + bar fridge
1 x 15 amp AFCI for microwave
1 x 15 amp bathroom circuit
1 X 15 amp for kitchen counter receptacles
1 x 15 amp for lighting
1 X 15 amp for refrigerator

You're asking for trouble if you put both the fridge and bathroom on one circuit. I would run BX to nearby receptacles (AFCI) and carry on from there for a couple of circuits. Also, you're wiring a wet bar, not a kitchen, so you don't need 20 amp. Add up your lighting watts - you don't need two circuits.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Trim the fat. 

A four gang is crazy in a bathroom. That bathroom is lit up like a Christmas tree. Get rid of one recessed light. Consider switching the recessed lighting and fan together (I recommend this for low son fans so there is visual indication that they're running).

The two lights above the wet bar are questionable. Eliminate them and maybe use a couple of gimbals to push light in that direction (Lotus makes 4" now).

Instead of two recessed lights between the stairs, use one. Stretch out the lighting in the hallway and eliminate one fixture. 

There. You have eliminated five fixtures and a complicated four gang  .


----------



## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

NDC said:


> So far for circuits I'm at:
> 2 x 15 amp AFCI for general use receptacles + bar fridge
> 1 x 15 amp AFCI for microwave
> 1 x 15 amp tandem for full size fridge + bathroom circuit
> ...


Future hot tub?


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

NDC said:


> I'm at just over 4 grand for pot lights alone. I need to rework the number. I just pull prices out of my [email protected]$ and *I could really use the work*.


There is the problem right there^

I am a little different than these other guys, and that's fine because we are all allowed our own opinion.

I am of the mindset that you should go back up to $10K and price it there, then stop this right now. You have spent WAY too much time on this one job, a job that you say you really need. 

IMO, you should be spending a whole lot less time on this one job, instead you should be spending it on getting calls for other jobs. 

You can't invest so much into each job and then hope to get the job and also lower your numbers trying to get it. IMO, you'd be better off pricing it quick and high in order to make a good profit, and then move on to something better. 

If you spent the hours that you spent on this one job writing landing pages for your website or starting a blog filled with keywords or going to neighborhood businesses you would be ahead, IMO.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> There is the problem right there^
> 
> I am a little different than these other guys, and that's fine because we are all allowed our own opinion.
> 
> ...


This is a learning experience for him. I could knock this job off fast. I had to spend time fumbling around on jobs figuring things out before I got to this point, though. I wouldn't have gained that experience looking for other work instead.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

I would consider conventional cans on this job. They're still faster than Lotus Lights. LED trims are becoming cheap. An All Pro baffle and an LED bulb is also an option.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Majewski said:


> Do you think possibly a microwave would need 20a? Did you add coffee to your list?


Show me a microwave with a 20 amp cord end.


----------



## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

A couple of thoughts regarding lighting… actually I really hate lighting because no matter what you do it never seems right… similar to Texas Holdem when you guys see someone get “analysis paralysis” there are so many options that are “good” that you just can’t decide.

My comment(s) to clients is always – “I tend to over light then control with dimmers or switches”, because “in 30 years I have never had anyone say there is too much light in here please take it out.” I use the same sort of discussion with receptacles and to some extent switches. The only thing I caution them on is to not get into the “runway effect” with too many ceiling lights.

It is easy to go overboard with switching also; 4-ways are expensive to install. I had a client write a blog about the value vs the cost of a switch; might be fun reading for some of you… http://www.thewebforbusiness.com/BlogRetrieve.aspx?PostID=333314#.WM6SJCa-86Y

When it comes to cost, I think one of the perspectives we (as electricians in Ontario in particular) is the amount of work required to bring these basement renos, legal suites, etc up to code. In this situation, except for a service change and a few kitchen circuits, you are looking at the cost of wiring a small one bedroom home. How much would it cost to rewire that. In new construction it would be less expensive granted, but you still have to deal with the interconnected smokes, sorting out the old stuff, playing around with the circuits in the existing panel, etc. Without giving it too much thought, I don’t think your original $10K was unrealistic for what you had. If you start trimming that back to a code-compliant install, $8K would be reasonable.

One of the my new things that I have been trying to talk about with clients is the attitude of, “this is just for a rental” this is a “simple basement reno”. I am figuring out a way to educate them that regardless of whether that receptacle is going into a $50 million home, $500 thousand home or a $50 thousand dollar home, the cost of the wire, breaker, permit, etc is all the same. So the conversation is about affordability and not about the cost of doing something. Still working to how to present this discussion for future clients.

Cheers
John


----------



## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

If the objective is to get the job when bidding against others, create a bare minimum code complaint design and bid that. Then tell them they can add this light for that $$$ each and so on.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

The biggest cost in this job is lighting. You could illuminate that bigger area with a few booby lights and have lighting for a residence that is quite acceptable.

I could never wrap my brain around the prevalence of recessed lighting in housing. At one time it was only used in high end residences. Now everybody wants it. The fact remains, however, that if you want recessed lighting, you pay. It's an option and one that will cost money.

If it's "only" a rental or basement, you eliminate recessed lighting altogether or use it selectively.


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

I my opinion, Way, way to many recess lights. The only time you in a house that you even think about over lighting is the kitchen. I would have less than half of what you do in the main room and there would still be plenty of light.
I would probably go with a sub panel but we have way more Arc's. 
I would probably use Halo with a nice trim and LED lamp, my guys would use the new lo profile shower lights. I would let the customer decide because that is small potatoes.
You already have more time in this job than I would laying out the actual basement. Just make nice, simple and make sure they know it will be done right. 
Hax is right on the "don't put your eggs in one basket" thinking. Bid this job normal and go find another one to bid. If they are getting more than a few bids you are not getting it anyway.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

This is rapidly turning into a conversation about qualifying the customer first. The question of budget has to come up and it better come up early. There's no sense pitching gold to a bronze client.

I was fortunate enough to sit in on client meetings with a high end GC. Budget was the first thing discussed. If ballpark numbers weren't agreed on, the meetings were quick but cordial. They often sent a junior designer out to pre-qualify the customer beforehand.


----------



## Tangent (Mar 19, 2017)

What about circuit numbers?, low voltage for the tv location and bedroom? The panel wiring looks like complete crap and I see no AFCI breakers, Unless I'm missing something?
I'm sure that not your workmanship, as for the lighting layout looks good! and yes the code requires a switched light at the outside doorway and one GFCI receptacle in the back, however if the dwelling unit already has an outlet in the back, then you it is not necessary to add another outlet, but for an up sale$$$, I would highly recommend it for convenience sake.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

I'm IESNA educated. It's really difficult for me to let that go and say, "It's only a basement". 

Maybe I have to tone that down and tell myself, "I are a contractor now".


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> This is a learning experience for him. I could knock this job off fast. I had to spend time fumbling around on jobs figuring things out before I got to this point, though. I wouldn't have gained that experience looking for other work instead.


 You might not have gained that experience, but you would have gained lots of money :thumbsup:

I understand it's a learning experience for him, but the second he said that he really needs this job sirens went off. At this point he should be doing everything he can to get new potential work in. Instead of spending 5 hours bidding 1 job, he should be spending 1 hour each bidding 5 jobs.

Every time someone "really needs this job", things go right down the toilet. They end up doing things they don't want for prices that they don't like, and in the end they often regret even touching the job and wasting all that time. 

As a new contractor myself, one of the greatest things I learned was to move on. I think one of the reasons why new contractors fail is because they aren't getting enough new prospects and they need to get every job they come across. I think more time should be spent getting new potential jobs so they can bid them all and take what they get without worrying about losing some.

Just my opinion. 



99cents said:


> Show me a microwave with a 20 amp cord end.


Microwaves often require a dedicated 20A circuit.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> You might not have gained that experience, but you would have gained lots of money :thumbsup:
> 
> I understand it's a learning experience for him, but the second he said that he really needs this job sirens went off. At this point he should be doing everything he can to get new potential work in. Instead of spending 5 hours bidding 1 job, he should be spending 1 hour each bidding 5 jobs.
> 
> ...


Actually, we agree, Hack. Really, we're talking about weeding out the low potential business.


----------



## Tangent (Mar 19, 2017)

Those that pay, pay for those that don't!


----------



## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

99 if I splice my own and take a picture, does that count?


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Majewski said:


> 99 if I splice my own and take a picture, does that count?


I have never seen a 20 amp microwave :001_huh: .


----------



## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

99cents said:


> I have never seen a 20 amp microwave :001_huh: .


What sort of po dunk towns you workin in?!


----------



## telsa (May 22, 2015)

The OP needs to rapidly develop his own 'canned solutions' for this or that space.

In his scheme, this basement is laid out like it's open plan office space. Bad idea,

The TV needs at most two wall-washers -- dimmable and modest power. These need their own switch. Some TV needs them off, some shows need them on.

Then the entire TV viewing zone should be devoid of overhead lighting. 

The 'play-space' should use a handful of centeralized dimmable fixtures. The one posted up this thread would be perfect. It would throw illumination down upon the play tables.

The wet bar// dry bar space is an ADDER. You should have this as a canned solution that is an ADDER for any bid.

You're NOT going to see a lot of receptacle loads in such play rooms. Stay Code minimum.

You're going to have to lay in three-ways as an ADDER that is Code mandatory. It's an ADDER because you're not going to see it in every build out.

The bathroom is an ADDER, too. Most basements will be built without a powder room. 

The hallway should not get can lights. A cheapo central light -- same as the main playroom will due. A fan + light that is remotely controlled and dimmable is an ADDER.

A receptacle should be run to the exercise closet. Folks love to watch their old model TV set while pumping their heart, etc.

The equipment space may need nothing more than a keyless with plastic shield. Mount it as if it were a wall sconce.

For speed of production, this space compels you to use a Baker// Perry type scaffold -- set lowish. That way you can scoot your stuff around -- greatly cutting down on ladder steps. ( It typically cuts your labor in half. A LOT of resi guys are wholly unaware of how dramatic this is on their bids. ) Yes, you're still going to be using a ladder here and there.

Figure on plenty of 14-2. Shun #12 conductors... they'll slow you down excessively.

A microwave close to the panel can easily live with #14-2. Give it a dedicated breaker and receptacle -- and price it as an ADDER.

You want to have these ADDERS on 4x6 index cards or some spread sheet program. ( I prefer index cards, since I can flip through them faster than my PC can jump through spreadsheet pages. Remember the old Mission Impossible show openings ? Mr. Phelps would simply toss out the dossiers of his crew when adding up his 'talent budget.' )

Once such foot-work is done, it's done. You'll only slightly modify your ADDERS as you gain perspective.

As others have mentioned -- 2-gangs should be your design limit. You don't want to even think about stocking 3-gang trims. They'll be dead stock if owned. They'll be out of stock when you visit Big Box Hardware in a trim-out phase panic. ( You'd forgotten about the matter. )

Where I live, Decora trims are the NORM. Since most of the trims are made in Red China, they are the ONE thing I'd consider ordering in bulk, if I were in your shoes. ( They don't take up much space and the price spread is often astounding. ) I always push White. It always goes with everything residential. Don't follow this advice until your finances can tolerate this usage of your working capital.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

$85 Interior Outlet
$100 Interior GFCI Outlet
$110 Exterior Outlet
$65 Switch
$150 Light
$200 Fan
$125 High Hat
$150 High Hat LED
$400 Homerun w/ AFCI


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

telsa said:


> Then the entire TV viewing zone should be devoid of overhead lighting.


In the 70's, they never put any lighting in the living room. If you wanted to read a book while everyone else was watching TV, you turned on a table lamp. Now the only task lighting we think of is undercabinet.

Not that I should complain a about recessed lighting. It's worth money  .


----------



## Jmcstevenson (Sep 11, 2010)

Hey OP what program did you used to create that layout? I'm trying to do up a plan for my recently demo's basement. 

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


----------



## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

99cents said:


> I have never seen a 20 amp microwave :001_huh: .


Have you ever checked the inrush current on a decent sized microwave? I'd never put a microwave on a 15 amp circuit. What would the reason be?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk


----------



## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

I'd keep the amount of lights you've drawn in. I've never had anyone complain about too much lighting. The first two rows by the TV should be switched separately. I use almost exclusively 6" cans and Sylvania LED trims. Why? Because I've had excellent luck with dimming, longevity, cost, etc. I would never want to wire something to code minimum. Just my opinion and because I've never been asked to. You'll pay for it in the long run. Make sure to run plenty of circuits to the bar area. Think coffee machine, expresso machine, drink mixers, and other appliances. I'd tend to use switches with wireless capability so you can easily add switch locations down the road. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

wendon said:


> Have you ever checked the inrush current on a decent sized microwave? I'd never put a microwave on a 15 amp circuit. What would the reason be?
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk


There is not one micro out there that is not OK on a 15.


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

99cents said:


> In the 70's, they never put any lighting in the living room. If you wanted to read a book while everyone else was watching TV, you turned on a table lamp. Now the only task lighting we think of is undercabinet.
> 
> Not that I should complain a about recessed lighting. It's worth money  .


Yea, nothing has changed in the last 40 years.


----------



## 3DDesign (Oct 25, 2014)

Can you legally have a bedroom without a egress window?


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

wendon said:


> I'd keep the amount of lights you've drawn in. I've never had anyone complain about too much lighting.


That's odd, I have seen a lot of people complain about too much lighting. Usually they look to reduce it in order to reduce the installation cost.


----------



## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

3DDesign said:


> Can you legally have a bedroom without a egress window?


I doubt it. it will show up in the IRC and I know few peoples try to get away with this and the inspectors will knock it fast. so it should have egress window in there unless the ground level is low side. 

I am not aware if Canada codes are parallel with IRC building codes in USA side.


----------



## 3DDesign (Oct 25, 2014)

frenchelectrican said:


> I doubt it. it will show up in the IRC and I know few peoples try to get away with this and the inspectors will knock it fast. so it should have egress window in there unless the ground level is low side.
> 
> I am not aware if Canada codes are parallel with IRC building codes in USA side.


Locally, even if the lower level was at ground level, a bedroom would still need an egress window.


----------



## PlugsAndLights (Jan 19, 2016)

sbrn33 said:


> There is not one micro out there that is not OK on a 15.


But the convection/micros should be on a 20.

http://www.canadianappliance.ca/pro...H706MQG.html?gclid=CMOjsdnm49ICFY4EKgod6hIMFw


Power/Ratings 
*Power Source* 120V/60Hz *Amp Circuit* 14.5A *Power Consumption (Microwave)* 1700 W *Power Cord Length (in.)* 39"


----------



## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

I did look at the drawing .,, 

Let me comment my option on this one.,

A. try to get first two rows by the wall tv on seperated switch. ( get one with dimmer on that one.)

B. the numbers of lumaires in main room.,, personally that is kinda on high side try to elemated at least 3 and respace it. ( I do not know if those LED lens are set for spot or flood pattern so it will change the spaceing a bit.)

C. try to use flood pattern on led trim lens on the long hallway and knock one back. that is more than enough light to see it thru.

D. try to get the exhaust fan tied to one of the lumiare can so you know it is running espcally with super quiet fans are. ( unless that required to tied to the furnace for air make up unit if that required in the codes)

E. try to have little hevey up in kitchette area so you will need at least couple circuits.

F. tie one switch by paito door to hallway light or landing area between stairway area. 

G. try to run a single 20 amp circuit for microwave oven. ya never know how big those mircrowave they will get. ( I know ya can get by with 15 amp circuit but IMO it will be hard on the microwave oven with cycling load. so run with #12 awg there.)

H. you only need one receptale in long hallway that is more than enough in most case.


----------



## 3DDesign (Oct 25, 2014)

Jmcstevenson said:


> Hey OP what program did you used to create that layout? I'm trying to do up a plan for my recently demo's basement.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


Look at Chief Architect Home Design Software
There is a free trial version.
It's the homeowner version of the software I use, Chief Architect Premier.


----------



## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

HackWork said:


> That's odd, I have seen a lot of people complain about too much lighting. Usually they look to reduce it in order to reduce the installation cost.


You're in a different area than I am. It's easy to dim but hard to make brighter.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

wendon said:


> Have you ever checked the inrush current on a decent sized microwave? I'd never put a microwave on a 15 amp circuit. What would the reason be?
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk


Never heard of it until now. I've always put a microwave on a 15 amp circuit and never had a problem.


----------



## Mr.Awesome (Nov 27, 2015)

My two cents...

I'm with hack, it seems like too many lights. However lighting all comes down to the personal preference of the owners. Some people like to live in a cave, some want their house to look like an operating room. You're right, dimmers are a wonderful thing.
For reference, attached is a 12 x 15 living room I did before and after with 5" pots. The wife wanted the operating room effect while the husband wanted a cave. The dimmer made both parties happy, and you can also see why we think you may have too many lights.
I'm with P&L on the bedroom receptacles. There is usually going to be one or two places a bed can fit. Plan the receptacles accordingly to try and get them behind nightstands.
As far as the 3 switches and losing track of wires, thats what white tape and a sharpie are for. Do what is neatest and most convenient for a switchbank.
I would do a dedicated receptacle for the TV and everything that will be connected to it.
Utility room I might add one more light, 2 in the main area and one around the corner.
Bedroom I might add a small light at the entrance.
Go nuts on the general receptacles. No one in the history of of the receptacle has ever said "man I wish I had less places to plug stuff in to."


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Gak! I better be asking for the microwave spec  .


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

sbrn33 said:


> Yea, nothing has changed in the last 40 years.


Did I say that?


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> That's odd, I have seen a lot of people complain about too much lighting. Usually they look to reduce it in order to reduce the installation cost.


Cost/benefit ratio, otherwise known as "How fat is your wallet?".


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

wendon said:


> You're in a different area than I am. It's easy to dim but hard to make brighter.


Yeah, I am in one of the highest cost of living areas in the country with all the yuppies who work in Manhattan.

Yet they still think that 21 recessed lights in a space like this is way too much and a waste of money.


----------



## B-Nabs (Jun 4, 2014)

NDC, you need at least one receptacle in the utility room, and it needs to be dedicated 15A (unless there is already one there). Rules 26-710(e)(iii) and 26-722(c).

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


----------



## PlugsAndLights (Jan 19, 2016)

Mr.Awesome said:


> My two cents...
> 
> 
> As far as the 3 switches and losing track of wires, thats what white tape and a sharpie are for. Do what is neatest and most convenient for a switchbank.


No concern with electrician losing track of wires. Concern is that when 
there's more than 3 switches in one box, the homeowner will likely have
difficulty remembering what does what. When there's three or less, it's 
usually easy to put them in a logical order that doesn't have to be
remembered. 
YMMV
P&L


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Anyone who puts 2 separate 2-gang boxes in for switches is a f*cking ******ed handyman.


----------



## B-Nabs (Jun 4, 2014)

I agree, I think a 4 gang is acceptable in some situations. Beyond that it's time to look and see if you can distribute them differently.


----------



## Mr.Awesome (Nov 27, 2015)

B-Nabs said:


> I agree, I think a 4 gang is acceptable in some situations. Beyond that it's time to look and see if you can distribute them differently.


Random story:
At a school I worked on we had to special order a 10 gang box and cover plate. Different circuits from different panels to different parts of the building for the general lighting, all piped in and bonds in every pipe. Recessed into the wall so the wall had to be studded out all funky. Aaaaaall spec'd too.


----------



## NDC (Jan 12, 2016)

B-Nabs said:


> NDC, you need at least one receptacle in the utility room, and it needs to be dedicated 15A (unless there is already one there). Rules 26-710(e)(iii) and 26-722(c).
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


Yep already one in there



Jmcstevenson said:


> Hey OP what program did you used to create that layout? I'm trying to do up a plan for my recently demo's basement.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


I use Adobe Ai. I had to teach myself how to use it. It's really useful for layouts.



3DDesign said:


> Can you legally have a bedroom without a egress window?


There is a window there, I just didn't put it in on the drawing


----------



## NDC (Jan 12, 2016)

I sent them the quote and didn't get a call back until today asking me why it was 5 grand higher the other guy. They also don't want to get permits taken out.
In the end it was a huge waste of my time.
I could use this type of work for my portfolio but I am not hungry for work yet, not enough to compete with trunk slammers anyway.
I know that they obviously got some cash price and I am not going to bother competing.
I hope ESA see's the bin on the driveway and knocks on the door.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Lesson learned. You need to qualify your leads and dump the losers without hesitation. Ask a couple of questions about expectations and budget. Then sit back and listen. The customer will reveal himself in short order.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Seriously, I think you need to look for some well established renovation contractors to work with.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

NDC said:


> I sent them the quote and didn't get a call back until today asking me why it was 5 grand higher the other guy. They also don't want to get permits taken out.
> In the end it was a huge waste of my time.
> I could use this type of work for my portfolio but I am not hungry for work yet, not enough to compete with trunk slammers anyway.
> I know that they obviously got some cash price and I am not going to bother competing.
> I hope ESA see's the bin on the driveway and knocks on the door.


"5 grand higher the other guy" 

It was the 21 high hats :laughing::thumbup:

Anyways, do what you have to do get 5 more jobs to bid. Then use my list:

$85 Interior Outlet
$100 Interior GFCI Outlet
$110 Exterior Outlet
$65 Switch
$150 Light
$200 Fan
$125 High Hat
$150 High Hat LED
$400 Homerun w/ AFCI

Then change my list to suit yourself. 

A takeoff for a basement remodel like this should take no more than 30 minutes if you have plans and no more than an hour if you have to draw up plans. 

Bid it and move on. Spend those extras hours driving around to every bagel store and deli you can find and telling the owner/manager how much better the food would look with a nice new set of LED lights to replace the greasy brown lights they currently have falling out of the ceiling.


----------



## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

NDC said:


> I sent them the quote and didn't get a call back until today asking me why it was 5 grand higher the other guy. They also don't want to get permits taken out.
> In the end it was a huge waste of my time.
> I could use this type of work for my portfolio but I am not hungry for work yet, not enough to compete with trunk slammers anyway.
> I know that they obviously got some cash price and I am not going to bother competing.
> I hope ESA see's the bin on the driveway and knocks on the door.


Don't sweat that. I was at a job site the other day (for something unrelated) where I priced out the trim out of five houses that were wired and abandoned by another contractor. No devices in and a majority of the cables were coiled in the basement; all the cables had to be pulled back to the panel and tied in, all devices installed. Each house about 2000 sqft.

I was told by the site foreman that the owner got a couple of guys from Toronto to do it for less then half. That is less than the material costs. I don't see how they are doing it for less then half including driving from Toronto;it was five houses to so it is not like they were in and out in a day...

Guys like this perpetuate the race to the bottom...

Cheers

John


----------



## NDC (Jan 12, 2016)

99cents said:


> Lesson learned. You need to qualify your leads and dump the losers without hesitation. Ask a couple of questions about expectations and budget. Then sit back and listen. The customer will reveal himself in short order.


So what if they have no clue what the electrical budget should be? Should I base it on their entire basement budget?


----------



## telsa (May 22, 2015)

NDC said:


> So what if they have no clue what the electrical budget should be? Should I base it on their entire basement budget?


Yes.

Their conception of what the whole project is going to cost is a 'tel.'

&&&

Keep in mind that your OWN labor expenditure for this project is likely too high.

Ie: You expected to build it off of a ladder.

That -- right there -- put you in orbit.

Yes, it takes 4X as much labor to work on a ladder as on the slab. It's not even close.

I'd be willing to bet you don't even have a Baker scaffold.

Until you learn such tricks, you'll be blown out on your bids, every time.

BTW, Red Chinese 'Baker style' scaffolds go for $200 in my town.

I'd probably use two for the OP job. 

One for materials portage, another -- set low ( 36" ) as a working platform.

I'd be able to simply pull myself from point to point -- by reaching up to the overhead joists.

Materials portage is a HUGE labor factor. It means that I can stack up light fixtures at the door and then pull them around to the point of install, w/o having to traipse back and forth. The tools come along, too.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

telsa said:


> Yes.
> 
> Their conception of what the whole project is going to cost is a 'tel.'
> 
> ...


You sure have some oddball ideas. A scaffold in a basement job? How do I maneuver that through doorways and around all the junk left lying around?

Have you seen a box of Lotus Lights? You can carry it with one arm.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

NDC said:


> So what if they have no clue what the electrical budget should be? Should I base it on their entire basement budget?


A cheap, scum sucking client will always reveal himself early in the conversation.


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

99cents said:


> You sure have some oddball ideas. A scaffold in a basement job? How do I maneuver that through doorways and around all the junk left lying around?
> 
> Have you seen a box of Lotus Lights? You can carry it with one arm.


I love working off my little roll around scaffold both as a scaffold and as a workbench.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

MechanicalDVR said:


> I love working off my little roll around scaffold both as a scaffold and as a workbench.


In a basement? :laughing:


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

99cents said:


> In a basement? :laughing:


Sure, why not?

What's the big deal, it has to go downstairs?

I've used it in many houses including my own, it's just handy.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Sure, why not?
> 
> What's the big deal, it has to go downstairs?
> 
> I've used it in many houses including my own, it's just handy.


.....


----------



## splatz (May 23, 2015)

MechanicalDVR said:


> I love working off my little roll around scaffold both as a scaffold and as a workbench.





99cents said:


> In a basement? :laughing:


The little fold-up scaffold ...










For most people the two foot step will be perfect to work off of in a basement. There's room for a box of materials next to you, hang your tools off the rail so you're not weighted down like an animal, and you can work like a gentleman rather than humping everything around like an animal. I could do the 80 or 90 recessed lights in the main room in no time with this beauty


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

splatz said:


> The little fold-up scaffold ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's the next size up from that one (6' to top or corner posts):


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

In a nice, big house, sure. My typical basement job is 800 to 1200 square feet. That thing would just get in the way.


----------



## splatz (May 23, 2015)

NDC said:


> I sent them the quote and didn't get a call back until today asking me why it was 5 grand higher the other guy. They also don't want to get permits taken out.


Two lessons in that sentence. 

They may well be lying about the 5 grand higher part, they may also have been bottom feeders, or both. *Learn to spot bottom feeders.*

Don't want permits taken out is a red flag or at least a yellow flag depending on the job and the locale, pay attention to this, bring it up earlier in the future. 



> In the end it was a huge waste of my time.


Not as bad as you might think. Your estimating process needed a lot of work, you are closer than you were to a grasp on a system that works for you. Extremely valuable. 



> I could use this type of work for my portfolio but I am not hungry for work yet, not enough to compete with trunk slammers anyway.


Then it isn't so bad, you win some you lose some, you lost this one. If you're not going hungry then you must be winning some. Bottomfeeders going to bottomfeed, you'll always lose some to someone that's losing money, there is no money in beating them. 



NDC said:


> So what if they have no clue what the electrical budget should be? Should I base it on their entire basement budget?


I wonder if because you're green as a contractor you're sheepish about talking about money? Talk about money early and often. There is no answer to what their electrical budget should be. What you want to get to is your price is the best value for them. If they are bottomfeeders you'll never get there, end the conversation early and move on. If they really don't know, discuss the value. 

Why are they doing the basement project? Outgrown the house as is and want to live there another 20 years? Moving and want to fix it up to sell? Flippers? Each will value the project differently. 

Flippers are sad to say generally bottomfeeders. Bid code minimums quickly and move on. 

Fixing up to sell? Things that make a big visual impression will help the house sell, things like two 20a circuits in the wet bar won't. 

Living there another 20 years? They'll want to do it right, enjoy the space, and minimize the cost of maintenance and upgrades, i.e. spend more.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Listen to splatz. He knows his stuff.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

This wasn't a waste of time. You just started attending class at Screw U. I have my doctorate :laughing: .


----------



## telsa (May 22, 2015)

99cents said:


> You sure have some oddball ideas. A scaffold in a basement job? How do I maneuver that through doorways and around all the junk left lying around?
> 
> Have you seen a box of Lotus Lights? You can carry it with one arm.


My puppies just shoot through doorways.

Fighting client clutter -- it's an ADDER. 

How will the sheet rock go up if the clutter is terrible ?

I don't pigeon hole my materials to Lotus lights.


----------



## telsa (May 22, 2015)

99cents said:


> In a nice, big house, sure. My typical basement job is 800 to 1200 square feet. That thing would just get in the way.


Not fit your vehicle.

Okay. :thumbsup:


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents, I'm completely with you on this one. You and I would have all 985 recessed lights in that basement wired before these clowns even got their baker scaffold carried in and setup.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> 99cents, I'm completely with you on this one. You and I would have all 985 recessed lights in that basement wired before these clowns even got their baker scaffold carried in and setup.


Maybe I should put wheels on a milk crate  .


----------



## NDC (Jan 12, 2016)

HackWork said:


> "5 grand higher the other guy"
> 
> It was the 21 high hats :laughing::thumbup:
> 
> ...


Based on your price list, how would you price a single gang switch vs 2 or 3 gang? Do you multiply your $65 x 2 or 3?


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

NDC said:


> Based on your price list, how would you price a single gang switch vs 2 or 3 gang? Do you multiply your $65 x 2 or 3?


Yes, it is all about the openings.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

NDC said:


> Based on your price list, how would you price a single gang switch vs 2 or 3 gang? Do you multiply your $65 x 2 or 3?


Yes, I would. It takes just as long to do the rough wiring and trimming for a 3-gang switchbox as 3 1-gang switchboxes.

After doing a few of them yourself you may or may not agree with me, and change the numbers to match your own experience.


----------



## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

Hack – I would like to add on NDCs question as well...

Lets say you had to install a dedicated 20 amp GFCI receptacle, so that would be $400 + $100?
Install a hallway light fixture, $150 + $65?
10 potlights would be $400 + (10 x $150) + $65?
The $400 might be slightly less if AFCI was not required?

Cheers

John


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Hack's just pulling these numbers out of his ass  .

I don't even count switches, I include them in the fixture number and have an adder for dimmers. I have a number for dedicated circuits according to wire size and adders for GFCI's/AFCI's.


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

99cents said:


> Hack's just pulling these numbers out of his ass  .
> 
> I don't even count switches, I include them in the fixture number and have an adder for dimmers. I have a number for dedicated circuits according to wire size and adders for GFCI's/AFCI's.


Not at all, he is just based in a market that can easily bear them. One of the highest real estate markets in the country.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Not at all, he is just based in a market that can easily bear them. One of the highest real estate markets in the country.


Hack has never done a reno job beyond four cans  .


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Navyguy said:


> Hack – I would like to add on NDCs question as well...
> 
> Lets say you had to install a dedicated 20 amp GFCI receptacle, so that would be $400 + $100?
> Install a hallway light fixture, $150 + $65?
> ...


Yes, exactly. Now I could change somethings on the spot. If it's a small job with only one GFCI, I may just charge the $400 AFCI homerun fee for that. 

My prices are based on my own area as well as my own greed. I don't mind losing renovation jobs. That's why I keep saying that NDC will end up finding his own prices that work for him.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

You price out small jobs that will take a day or half day more or less as a service call. Point method works for true reno jobs where you will be there for multiple days and multiple trades are involved.


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

99cents said:


> Hack has never done a reno job beyond four cans  .


But if his 4 can job draws the same profit as one of you extensive renos who wins?


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

MechanicalDVR said:


> But if his 4 can job draws the same profit as one of you extensive renos who wins?


Wake up angry this morning, Mech?


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

NDC, I don't want to let $.99 turn this into a crap fest.

My prices might not be in line with your area, so use them as a ratio. Lower them down to 70% of what they are, or something like that. 

My only point is that you could use set numbers like that to do a take off on a decent sized Reno job without spending hours and hours and hours of your time.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

I add up my numbers and then apply a factor, positive or negative, depending on competition, travel time, expected difficulty, demo, etc. I have done enough of these jobs that I have a good idea where the number will be anyway. The point method makes sure I don't miss anything.

Nothing is better than experience when quoting reno jobs and I had a lot of hits and misses along the way.


----------



## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

HackWork said:


> Yes, exactly. Now I could change somethings on the spot. If it's a small job with only one GFCI, I may just charge the $400 AFCI homerun fee for that.
> 
> My prices are based on my own area as well as my own greed. I don't mind losing renovation jobs. That's why I keep saying that NDC will end up finding his own prices that work for him.


Thanks hack

I was not so much interested in the numbers, but the process. Like 99, I have add-ons for things like dimmers, GFCI receptacles, AFCI breakers, etc.

Although I am not sure that your numbers are that far out for clients within the 1.5 hour driving radius of the GTA. Numbers are quite a moving target down in this area right now. Some don't even bat an eye, while others cry foul. Before everybody just cried foul!

Cheers

John


----------



## NDC (Jan 12, 2016)

Navyguy said:


> Numbers are quite a moving target down in this area right now. Some don't even bat an eye, while others cry foul. Before everybody just cried foul!
> 
> Cheers
> 
> John


It's like this everywhere in the GTA now.
My brother always says Liberal government = Cash society


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

99cents said:


> Wake up angry this morning, Mech?


Not at all, just telling it like it is!

I know his market, very well. I lived in NJ longer than any other state.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Navyguy said:


> Thanks hack
> 
> I was not so much interested in the numbers, but the process. Like 99, I have add-ons for things like dimmers, GFCI receptacles, AFCI breakers, etc.
> 
> ...


 It's not just the market, it's the people. Back when I used to charge $100 to install a ceiling fan I had many people complain that it was too expensive, and some of those fans could take over an hour to do. 
The other day I charged $260 to cut a hardwired stove and install a 50 amp receptacle on the feed so they could buy a new stove. Took me 45 minutes and I made $250, but they had no problem with the estimate and when I was done they were happy to pay. 

So it's just the people, you have to find the right ones. And that's why I keep harping that NDC should find a lot of prospects and only spend a little time on each until he finds someone willing to pay what he is worth.

It's a numbers game. When you only have a few calls coming in, you have to try to turn every one of them into a job, and a lot of them are crappy customers. But if you get a lot of calls coming in, you can ignore the crappy customers and only take the profitable jobs.


----------



## telsa (May 22, 2015)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Not at all, just telling it like it is!
> 
> I know his market, very well. I lived in NJ longer than any other state.


You poorer bastard.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> It's not just the market, it's the people. Back when I used to charge $100 to install a ceiling fan I had many people complain that it was too expensive, and some of those fans could take over an hour to do.
> The other day I charged $260 to cut a hardwired stove and install a 50 amp receptacle on the feed so they could buy a new stove. Took me 45 minutes and I made $250, but they had no problem with the estimate and when I was done they were happy to pay.
> 
> So it's just the people, you have to find the right ones. And that's why I keep harping that NDC should find a lot of prospects and only spend a little time on each until he finds someone willing to pay what he is worth.
> ...


Profitable customers will refer other profitable customers but let me tell you from experience: If you do a job for a cheap bastid, you will get more calls and they will all be cheap bastids. It's like the cheap bastid phones all his buddies to tell them he found a sucker. I ask where they got my name from.


----------



## NDC (Jan 12, 2016)

HackWork said:


> It's not just the market, it's the people. Back when I used to charge $100 to install a ceiling fan I had many people complain that it was too expensive, and some of those fans could take over an hour to do.
> The other day I charged $260 to cut a hardwired stove and install a 50 amp receptacle on the feed so they could buy a new stove. Took me 45 minutes and I made $250, but they had no problem with the estimate and when I was done they were happy to pay.
> 
> So it's just the people, you have to find the right ones. And that's why I keep harping that NDC should find a lot of prospects and only spend a little time on each until he finds someone willing to pay what he is worth.
> ...


I like this advice a lot :thumbsup: and I 100% agree. Getting enough calls to come in to be able to filter out and strain the scum is costly though. 
The calls I get from my website contact form or from my recent adwords express ads have been great, no complaints about my cost.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

NDC said:


> I like this advice a lot :thumbsup: and I 100% agree. Getting enough calls to come in to be able to filter out and strain the scum *is costly though*.


 That's where my advice from earlier in the thread comes in. It doesn't cost you anything to walk down the main roads in every town in your area and talk to every business owner. 

Lighting always could use an upgrade. Or mention the TV's on the walls with the wires hanging out. Or the extension cords running to the drink cooler. The exit signs not lit up that are going to cause them to fail their inspection, tell them how they have LED's you can install that will never need new bulbs. Etc. etc. There's always something.

For me, I wasn't into that as much (neither the market nor the pounding the pavement), so I went the internet route. On days that I didn't have work, I would spend 10-14 hours learning and performing SEO. And that has really worked for me, I am still getting the rewards of it today.



> The calls I get from my website contact form or from my recent adwords express ads have been great, no complaints about my cost.


That's good. If you can keep that up then you will be good to go.


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

telsa said:


> You poorer bastard.


It was an experience. NJ and NY taught me a lot about many different things. Thankfully I am smart enough not to have retired there. 

The last house I owned there (a @3000sq ft contemporary on less than an acre a few blocks from the ocean) was taxed at $11,000+ per year and then add in a high water and sewer bill you'd be paying out a salary annually rather than just normal taxes. I had enough of NJ taxes.


----------

