# AFCI question



## GEORGE D (Apr 2, 2009)

I'm doing a job that requires me to move an existing panel over about 4'.All but about 7 circuits will reach without junction boxes. My thoughts are that I won't need AFCI s because I'm not extending any circs. Is this an ahj thing?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

GEORGE D said:


> .......Is this an ahj thing?


Yep.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Sure sounds like extending a circuit to me. You may not be adding any load but you are extending the branch circuit(s). Doesn't appear to be a violation to me. 

All 120-volt, single phase, 15- and
20-ampere branch circuits supplying outlets installed in
dwelling unit family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms,
parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sunrooms, recreation
rooms, closets, hallways, or similar rooms or areas shall be
protected by a listed arc-fault circuit interrupter,
combination-type, installed to provide protection of the
branch circuit.


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## Joe Tedesco (Mar 25, 2007)

*See 210.12 in the NEC*

See 210.12 in the NEC and www.AFCIsafety.org :thumbsup:


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## B W E (May 1, 2011)

So what if you end up being required to put those circuits on an AFCI breaker, but they are fed with a 3-wire? No one is going to re-wire that for free, but you wont pass an inspection without the AFCIs? What do you do?


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

B W E said:


> So what if you end up being required to put those circuits on an AFCI breaker, but they are fed with a 3-wire? No one is going to re-wire that for free, but you wont pass an inspection without the AFCIs? What do you do?


Most brands make a dp afci-- they will work on a MWBC


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

I made a proposal for the 2011 to state that unless an outlet is added to the circuit then no afci is necessary.


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## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I made a proposal for the 2011 to state that unless an outlet is added to the circuit then no afci is necessary.


Too much common sense. You better be sending the proposal with a stack of hundreds to get it passed.


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## EJPHI (May 7, 2008)

B W E said:


> So what if you end up being required to put those circuits on an AFCI breaker, but they are fed with a 3-wire? No one is going to re-wire that for free, but you wont pass an inspection without the AFCIs? What do you do?


As previously suggested, the best course of action is to use a brand which makes the double pole AFCI. Seimens and CH do, but last time I checked, SQD doesn't.

A few years ago I had an AHJ dictate the use of AFCI breakers in a panel change and ran into the same problem. At the time, no one made a double pole AFCI. I checked the load on the MWBC and both sides together were 12A max on #12 wire. Because of the light load, I just tied the hots together on one breaker. This is no longer the best solution because double pole AFCI breakers are available.:thumbup:

EJPHI


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## AFOREMA1 (Nov 23, 2009)

EJPHI said:


> As previously suggested, the best course of action is to use a brand which makes the double pole AFCI. Seimens and CH do, but last time I checked, SQD doesn't.
> 
> A few years ago I had an AHJ dictate the use of AFCI breakers in a panel change and ran into the same problem. At the time, no one made a double pole AFCI. I checked the load on the MWBC and both sides together were 12A max on #12 wire. Because of the light load, I just tied the hots together on one breaker. This is no longer the best solution because double pole AFCI breakers are available.:thumbup:
> 
> EJPHI


That's a bad idea putting multiple wires on one breaker terminal and what size breaker did you tie them together on? This was recent if it needed a afci so not even close to best option. Couldn't you have used breaker for a to make it code compliant with 2 sp afci breakers?

One reason I am glad Michigan only requires them on bedrooms.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

AFOREMA1 said:


> That's a bad idea putting multiple wires on one breaker terminal and what size breaker did you tie them together on? This was recent if it needed a afci so not even close to best option. Couldn't you have used breaker for a to make it code compliant with 2 sp afci breakers?


Why is it a bad idea. If the load is 12 amps- not sure how that was calculated- why would you need 2 circuits?


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## AFOREMA1 (Nov 23, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Why is it a bad idea. If the load is 12 amps- not sure how that was calculated- why would you need 2 circuits?


He said each circuit was 12a and placing multiple wire on a single breaker is bad practice unless you are purchasing breakers rated for that since it is a MWBC"s and they share a neutral it would be okay, If they did not share a neutral I believe it is a code violation and the breaker would need to be rated for two wires. Still a bad practice in my opinion putting 2 on one breaker. 

Edit I see I misread its 12 a combined but how do you figure that are these dedicated circuits so you do not have to worry about both runs getting heavier loads? I'll stick with my if they share a neutral and the breaker is rated for multiple wires it may be legal. But unless you can for see future use and guarantee that the load on both lines will not exceed the installed breaker and wire rating its just a bad idea.


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

AFOREMA1 said:


> He said each circuit was 12a and placing multiple wire on a single breaker is bad practice unless you are purchasing breakers rated for that since it is a MWBC"s and they share a neutral it would be okay, If they did not share a neutral I believe it is a code violation and the breaker would need to be rated for two wires. Still a bad practice in my opinion putting 2 on one breaker.
> 
> Edit I see I misread its 12 a combined but how do you figure that are these dedicated circuits so you do not have to worry about both runs getting heavier loads? I'll stick with my if they share a neutral and the breaker is rated for multiple wires it may be legal. But unless you can for see future use and guarantee that the load on both lines will not exceed the installed breaker and wire rating its just a bad idea.


If you pigtail one wire from the bc wires and only connect that one wire to a breaker, how is that bad? No different than doing that in a junction box.


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## AFOREMA1 (Nov 23, 2009)

Little-Lectric said:


> If you pigtail one wire from the bc wires and only connect that one wire to a breaker, how is that bad? No different than doing that in a junction box.


I have no problem with that I just do not like 2 wires under one terminal on a breaker.


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## EJPHI (May 7, 2008)

AFOREMA1 said:


> I have no problem with that I just do not like 2 wires under one terminal on a breaker.


I don't like it either. Some SQD breakers are rated for two identical sized wires on one lug, but I think a pigtail makes for a better job.

In my case the total current on both hots was 12A maximum as determined by what was going to be used on those circuits. Now if someone is going to plug in a hair dryer, a curling iron, a nose straightner, a toe nail polish dryer, and an ultrasonic nose ring cleaner on one circuit then all bets are off.

EJPHI


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## AFOREMA1 (Nov 23, 2009)

EJPHI said:


> I don't like it either. Some SQD breakers are rated for two identical sized wires on one lug, but I think a pigtail makes for a better job.
> 
> In my case the total current on both hots was 12A maximum as determined by what was going to be used on those circuits. Now if someone is going to plug in a hair dryer, a curling iron, a nose straightner, a toe nail polish dryer, and an ultrasonic nose ring cleaner on one circuit then all bets are off.
> 
> EJPHI


Yeah I misread the 12a part thought it said on each line.:whistling2:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

MF Dagger said:


> Too much common sense. You better be sending the proposal with a stack of hundreds to get it passed.


You really have no idea who writes the code do you?:laughing:


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## Joe Tedesco (Mar 25, 2007)

*2014 NEC Proposal Form*

*2014 NEC Proposal Form*

Go to www.nfpa.org and look for the NEC Style Manual, or post some of your ideas here where many can help. The time is running out so hurry. 

PS: Use the Chat Box to get some help as well. :thumbsup:


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

I dont care for that set up as well, never a good idea to share a nuetral. There is always a possibility to overload it. The inspectors in my area require afic for al new panel work period. Really adds to cost to HO.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

RGH said:


> I dont care for that set up as well, never a good idea to share a nuetral. There is always a possibility to overload it. The inspectors in my area require afic for al new panel work period. Really adds to cost to HO.


Really?

The service on my house has two hot legs and shares a neutral.

It hasn't overloaded ever. Should I request an additional neutral?

Sent from my iPad using ET Forum


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## noarcflash (Sep 14, 2011)

But no one is rearranging the main service to the house. How many times have you seen a shared neutral rearranged during a panel change out ?


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

no, not at the lug/panel with a shared neutral those are always d-rated anyway. THe question of sharing a nuetral on a singal circuit is always iffy. Say 2cirs @20amps each (12awg) pulling 14 amps and 12 amps but they share a nuetral in phase see u can over load the 12 awg panel/lug is outta phase so u get balance


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## noarcflash (Sep 14, 2011)

RGH said:


> no, not at the lug/panel with a shared neutral those are always d-rated anyway. THe question of sharing a nuetral on a singal circuit is always iffy. Say 2cirs @20amps each (12awg) pulling 14 amps and 12 amps but they share a nuetral in phase see u can over load the 12 awg panel/lug is outta phase so u get balance


 
That's what seperates the men from the boys. They must be on 2 different legs. But I just seen a melted neutral after a panel change out, because the guy wasn't carefull landing the hots.


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