# AFCI problems



## hueco44 (Mar 7, 2011)

Any hints on troubleshooting AFCI protected residential circuits? Went through and cleaned up the boxes where Rotozips did their work, but the breakers still trip, randomly it seems. CH BR Types.


Thanks.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

hueco44 said:


> Any hints on troubleshooting AFCI protected residential circuits? Went through and cleaned up the boxes where Rotozips did their work, but the breakers still trip, randomly it seems. CH BR Types.
> 
> 
> Thanks.


 
We literally install hundreds of CH BR's and I think they 're the most dependable AFCI. You have a grounded conductor and a grounding conductor touching together somewhere. (assuming these are new AFCI's)


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Divide and conquer.

Break the circuit in half, opening up the far half. If it still trips, the problem is between there and the panel. If it doesn't trip, start working away from the panel.


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

megger the circuit and you will probably find a fault then start removing devices and remeggering until you isolate it.


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## hueco44 (Mar 7, 2011)

CH called and told me they do have problems when there exists an AM radio transmitter "nearby" transmitting at normal power levels. They told me they have an alternate part number which ends in "CAFAS" rather than "CAFCS."

Man, I just don't know.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

hueco44 said:


> CH called and told me they do have problems when there exists an AM radio transmitter "nearby" transmitting at normal power levels. They told me they have an alternate part number which ends in "CAFAS" rather than "CAFCS."
> 
> Man, I just don't know.


We install CH br combo arc faults every day. No issues here with them.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

hueco44 said:


> CH called and told me they do have problems when there exists an AM radio transmitter "nearby" transmitting at normal power levels. They told me they have an alternate part number which ends in "CAFAS" rather than "CAFCS."
> 
> Man, I just don't know.


 
Is there a price difference between the two?

Welcome to the forum...:thumbsup:


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## Smoke (Feb 25, 2011)

hueco44 said:


> Any hints on troubleshooting AFCI protected residential circuits? Went through and cleaned up the boxes where Rotozips did their work, but the breakers still trip, randomly it seems. CH BR Types.
> 
> 
> Thanks.


we did this large condo project last year, some had a common kitchen/dining/living room with lights that hang off the over-braid wire over the bar (not sure what their called), the lights were adjustable height, simply shorten the cable to the lamp (they shortened them 1' to spec height). problem was, if the over-braid of the drop to the lamp touched the trim it tripped the arc fault.
one of 1000 possibilities, hope that helps


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## hueco44 (Mar 7, 2011)

Update. Talked to CH again this morning to learn the specifics of the AM radio thing. Looks like it involves bands from 1 to 1.2 khz, 15 kw. They could reference my location and while there are some AM stations, there are none in that power range. They will send me a breaker BR115CAFA to substitute for the BR115CAFCS that is in there and, they atre sending a filter that goes between a "shop vac" and the receptacle.

They also told me that the breakers are voltage sensitive, but at 150 volts and above.

When there exists contact between the EGC and the grounded conductor (white wire) does the breaker react instantly?

Also, CH implied that the BR and CH type breakers are different discussions. I didn't pursue it.


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## Mike D (Sep 16, 2008)

I have trouble with Low Volt puck lights and the AFCI tripping.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Same here, no problem with CH BR AFCI circuit breakers. They work well though if you have an arc fault.


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## d-fi (Feb 21, 2011)

Use CH Arc fault breakers as well the only time we have tripping issues is if someone has tightened the clamps up in a box too tight. Loosen the clamps a bit tripping issue gone.

Sent from my Nexus One using Electrician Talk


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## Sam C (Mar 15, 2011)

I recently completed a house (Dec 2010) and on the day of final inspection, there was one AFCI combo breaker that would trip and not reset for the inspector (I wasn't present). Every time I went there it would reset and not trip again despite several attempts to cause a fault by switching lights on/off, hitting walls/ceilings/floors, checking all light and receptacle wiring, replacing the breaker, etc. The following day I stopped by the house at 5am to check on the circuit before my inspection-all was ok. Later that day during inspection it tripped again and would not reset. This went on for at least a week until I was ready to re-wire the entire circuit. This was a 6,000 sq. ft. house and the circuit in question was on the second floor hallway, all finished and painted. Not to mention the young couple’s desire to have Christmas in their new home. When I returned the following day to pull new wire, the circuit finally would not reset-alas I have a starting point. I had also realized that each time I came to check on the problem was always after 5pm when it was dark or in the early morning before sunrise. I started checking outdoor photo lighting and found a loose neutral crimp wire nut from the light manufacturer. This light was on a *completely separate* afci combo breaker and as it happens, this breaker also would not test when the button was depressed. After fixing the crimp and replacing the afci combo breaker all was ok and they were able to spend Christmas in their new home.
I purposely wired this house all with #12 wire (lighting and receptacle circuits) and generously provided circuits because these newlyweds are friends of mine and they plan on living in this house for 30+ years. To say this situation was an embarrassment would be an understatement.
Now, 4 months later, the homeowner is begging me to change out all the afci combo breakers with standard trip breakers, of which, I will not do. They are complaining that during electrical storms many of the afci breakers trip and intermittently an afci breaker will trip at random-making a frustrating and embarrassing moment while watching the game with friends over. There is no apparent pattern for this occurrence nor a dedicated circuit causing the trip. They are a young couple and have several electronics throughout the house including a home theatre system. 
I am at a loss as to how to fix or determine this problem. I cannot recreate it, it is intermittent, and it is not a constant circuit. With a standard breaker it is either fail or no fail and when it fails there is a clear and precise reason for the failure. There is no testing tools, that I am aware of, that can test this circuit unless is stays failed. I’m afraid this couple will have someone else replace these breakers which can cause the insurance company to refuse payment if something were to happen (i.e. lightning strike). Is it possible that “dirty” power from the utility company is causing this failure? Any suggestions or references would be greatly appreciated.
Note: these are type Cutler Hammer 20a combo afci breakers.


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*Meg*

I'd meg out the whole house and make a spreadsheet of every item in every outlet. Keep track which breaker trips and replug things in that circuit temporarily into different circuits to find out which electronics or other items are possibly causing it. That should only take about 50 - 100 hrs, then bill Cutler Hammer and hope you get paid OR just tell them to call someone on craigslist and have them swap the breakers out and be done with it. It's really not your problem anymore, you did your job. If it megs out your off the hook.


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## I_get_shocked (Apr 6, 2009)

hueco44 said:


> CH called and told me they do have problems when there exists an AM radio transmitter "nearby" transmitting at normal power levels. They told me they have an alternate part number which ends in "CAFAS" rather than "CAFCS."
> 
> Man, I just don't know.



I worked in a 3 family that was renovated and all three panels in unit were BR and nearly all of the AFCIs experienced nusiance tripping

Many nearby radio stations exist near this home.

Called CH and got a tech who asked a few questions, and sent us some replacement breakers. Installed the compact AFCI which CH is referring to above (green handle not yellow), and there have been no trips since (1 year later). They know their products well.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Sam C said:


> I recently completed a house (Dec 2010) and on the day of final inspection, there was one AFCI combo breaker that would trip and not reset for the inspector (I wasn't present). Every time I went there it would reset and not trip again despite several attempts to cause a fault by switching lights on/off, hitting walls/ceilings/floors, checking all light and receptacle wiring, replacing the breaker, etc. The following day I stopped by the house at 5am to check on the circuit before my inspection-all was ok. Later that day during inspection it tripped again and would not reset. This went on for at least a week until I was ready to re-wire the entire circuit. This was a 6,000 sq. ft. house and the circuit in question was on the second floor hallway, all finished and painted. Not to mention the young couple’s desire to have Christmas in their new home. When I returned the following day to pull new wire, the circuit finally would not reset-alas I have a starting point. I had also realized that each time I came to check on the problem was always after 5pm when it was dark or in the early morning before sunrise. I started checking outdoor photo lighting and found a loose neutral crimp wire nut from the light manufacturer. This light was on a *completely separate* afci combo breaker and as it happens, this breaker also would not test when the button was depressed. After fixing the crimp and replacing the afci combo breaker all was ok and they were able to spend Christmas in their new home.
> I purposely wired this house all with #12 wire (lighting and receptacle circuits) and generously provided circuits because these newlyweds are friends of mine and they plan on living in this house for 30+ years. To say this situation was an embarrassment would be an understatement.
> Now, 4 months later, the homeowner is begging me to change out all the afci combo breakers with standard trip breakers, of which, I will not do. They are complaining that during electrical storms many of the afci breakers trip and intermittently an afci breaker will trip at random-making a frustrating and embarrassing moment while watching the game with friends over. There is no apparent pattern for this occurrence nor a dedicated circuit causing the trip. They are a young couple and have several electronics throughout the house including a home theatre system.
> I am at a loss as to how to fix or determine this problem. I cannot recreate it, it is intermittent, and it is not a constant circuit. With a standard breaker it is either fail or no fail and when it fails there is a clear and precise reason for the failure. There is no testing tools, that I am aware of, that can test this circuit unless is stays failed. I’m afraid this couple will have someone else replace these breakers which can cause the insurance company to refuse payment if something were to happen (i.e. lightning strike). Is it possible that “dirty” power from the utility company is causing this failure? Any suggestions or references would be greatly appreciated.
> Note: these are type Cutler Hammer 20a combo afci breakers.


 
CH or BR?


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## Sam C (Mar 15, 2011)

CH FireGuard


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Sam C said:


> CH FireGuard


I think I would try the breakers referenced in post #9. Especially if they're in the city. Heck, some neighbor may be a HAM operator running 1500 watts of HF


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## Rockyd (Apr 22, 2007)

Funny that I was asking about the very same potential problem yesterday in the twin afci combo... -

http://www.electriciantalk.com/f29/double-pole-afcis-21875/

Please keep us advised to be smart about product, and solutions from C & H :thumbsup:


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## Mike Brown (Dec 8, 2009)

I started a AFCI discussion on here awhile back - It was called "WTF these AFCI breakers" I'm sorry to say the problems I brought up there have not really gone away.

We switched from GE to square D it seemed to get a little better. But there is still a lot of nuisance tripping service calls.

I talked to a square D rep the other day. he addmitted they know that there are new flat screen TVs out that, when showing a dark scene in a movie and the scene changes quickly to a lighter scene the fluctuation in current WILL cause a AFCI Breaker to trip. This would explain about half the scervice calls I get!!!!! When I asked him what an electrical contractor is suppose to do to solve the problem...... he had no idea.

Great.

I'm currently looking for a new career


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

mcclary's electrical said:


> CH or BR?


Have you tried installing a faceless AFCI at the panel instead


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> Have you tried installing a faceless AFCI at the panel instead


 

The NEC has certainly invited the manufacturing of those with their current wording, but no combo/ arc fault in a devise style is in production that I know of.


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## Mike Brown (Dec 8, 2009)

After complaining to square D reps about ongoing service calls with random AFCI tripping. I finally have something I can give the home owners!
Naturaly we check to make sure we have not wired something wrong or that there may be a faulty appliance or cord. But after that has been ruled out all we can do is blame their appliances or power companys.

It's time the manufacters start dealing with these problems not the contracters that are struggling to keep the doors open.

Have home owners go to www.afcisafety.org this is very pro afci breaker site however down the left hand margine see - AFCI Unwanted tripping form. Home owners fill out the info and submit. 

Maybe after a few 1000 replies they will see there is a problem with these things. At least in the Denver area there is. Doesn't seem to be as big an issue in other parts of the country.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Mike Brown said:


> After complaining to square D reps about ongoing service calls with random AFCI tripping. I finally have something I can give the home owners!
> Naturaly we check to make sure we have not wired something wrong or that there may be a faulty appliance or cord. But after that has been ruled out all we can do is blame their appliances or power companys.
> 
> It's time the manufacters start dealing with these problems not the contracters that are struggling to keep the doors open.
> ...


I installed a new flatscreen TV receptacle today, I explained to the HO the 11 code and no code, they opted no code and i tailed off the bathroom switch, i give customer the warnings and options on having AFCI breakers installed on non permit work, have'nt sold one AFCI yet.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

What is non permit work? I pull a permit for any new wiring. No permit if I'm fixing, repairing or replacing.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

backstay said:


> What is non permit work? I pull a permit for any new wiring. No permit if I'm fixing, repairing or replacing.


Only new construction out here is permit work,any additional wiring is between the EC and homeowner. Some towns however require a permit such as to add a hihat but almost every HO neglects the town codes and ask to have things done w/o their town permit. I'm not pro government, I'm pro people.


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## shock-u (Jan 13, 2011)

I'm not sure if this will help as ours codes are different here in Ontario Canada but when I wire homes or condos I put only the receptacles on the afci circuit and lights on a regular circuit and don't install afci breakers side by side in panel and we have never had problems.


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## Lava Rock Kid (Jul 3, 2014)

Siemens has a great tester called the intelli-arc diagnostic tool. It has helped us find many arcing conditions. Mostly in the stuff plugged into our outlets. This is a must have for any service electrician. YouTube it.

As for the tripping CH, we had the same problem. One customer would have multiple trip all at once and only on weekends. The diagnostic led on the breaker would give a failed self test on the breaker. The neighbor was a Ham operator and would fire it up on weekends. 

Ch now has a breaker that is available in about a month called the chcaf120ham, that is the correction for this. I worked through this with eaton and they sent me these free of charge.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Lava Rock Kid said:


> Siemens has a great tester called the intelli-arc diagnostic tool. It has helped us find many arcing conditions. Mostly in the stuff plugged into our outlets. This is a must have for any service electrician. YouTube it. As for the tripping CH, we had the same problem. One customer would have multiple trip all at once and only on weekends. The diagnostic led on the breaker would give a failed self test on the breaker. The neighbor was a Ham operator and would fire it up on weekends. Ch now has a breaker that is available in about a month called the chcaf120ham, that is the correction for this. I worked through this with eaton and they sent me these free of charge.


You you have a ham causing trips on a AFCI, he is violating FCC rules on harmful interference. He must stop transmitting and it is his responsibility to fix it.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Lava Rock Kid said:


> Siemens has a great tester called the intelli-arc diagnostic tool. It has helped us find many arcing conditions. Mostly in the stuff plugged into our outlets. This is a must have for any service electrician. YouTube it.
> 
> As for the tripping CH, we had the same problem. One customer would have multiple trip all at once and only on weekends. The diagnostic led on the breaker would give a failed self test on the breaker. The neighbor was a Ham operator and would fire it up on weekends.
> 
> Ch now has a breaker that is available in about a month called the chcaf120ham, that is the correction for this. I worked through this with eaton and they sent me these free of charge.


Another Eaton plant....do you guys actually monitor the web for any negative publicity over your worthless product and the send actors on these sites to impersonate an electrician having positive feedback about AFCIs. Pathetic.

Sent from my C5215 using electriciantalk.com mobile app


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## Lava Rock Kid (Jul 3, 2014)

I am not an eaton employee, I just like their product. I also believe in arc fault protection. I work for a service company in Idaho Falls Idaho, First Call Jewel. I have found that customers want arc fault protection when you tell them what it is. 

If I was an eaton employee, why would I recommend the Siemens Testing tool?


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## b-cap (Oct 7, 2014)

Talked with a local friend that said he was having problem with lightning tripping all afci breakers.


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