# Dead end three-way



## Julius793 (Nov 29, 2011)

When you have a dead end three way what color do you make the common? Black red or white?


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Julius793 said:


> When you have a dead end three way what color do you make the common? Black red or white?


Dead end 3 ways are not compliant with the 2011 nec.

I made the black wire the common and red/white the travelers.


----------



## Julius793 (Nov 29, 2011)

How do you start a poll on the ET app?


----------



## Julius793 (Nov 29, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Dead end 3 ways are not compliant with the 2011 nec.
> 
> I made the black wire the common and red/white the travelers.


They could be


----------



## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Dead end 3 ways are not compliant with the 2011 nec.
> 
> I made the black wire the common and red/white the travelers.


Why?


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Julius793 said:


> They could be


 What do you mean. The 2011 does not allow a dead end 3 way- a neutral needs to be present in most situations.


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

ponyboy said:


> Why?


Why what?

404.2(C)


----------



## Julius793 (Nov 29, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> a neutral needs to be present in most situations.


MOST not all


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Julius793 said:


> MOST not all


That is correct


----------



## Julius793 (Nov 29, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> That is correct


So when it's code compliant......lets stay on topic I always use white as common


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> What do you mean. The 2011 does not allow a dead end 3 way- a neutral needs to be present in most situations.


There is nothing against using a dead-end 3-way. You can use a 4-wire to get a neutral in the far box.


I always make the oddball the common. In this case, white would be common while black and red would be travelers.


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

HackWork said:


> There is nothing against using a dead-end 3-way. You can use a 4-wire to get a neutral in the far box.


 This is true- my statement obviously was looking at the norm. Many areas don't even have 4 wire cable.




> I always make the oddball the common. In this case, white would be common while black and red would be travelers.


So you would have the white wire as the return to the light?


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> This is true- my statement obviously was looking at the norm. Many areas don't even have 4 wire cable.


 Anywhere could get it. If your supply house isn't willing to order it, then you can have 14/4 or 14/2-2 delivered by UPS or FedEx from a variety of supply houses that are willing to serve you. At this point I order about 30% of my material even if it is available locally, since it's cheaper.



> So you would have the white wire as the return to the light?


Yes. Even when re-identified, it's still the oddball, IMO.


----------



## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I made the black wire the common and red/white the travelers.


I always sent the "hot" over on the white conductor, then the black and red were the travelers. I can't find it (am not going to look), but I thought it was a code issue if you used the white as a traveler (it will switch between "hot" and "not hot" in reference to ground).


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

HackWork;1087278
Yes. Even when re-identified said:


> Have you looked at 200.7(C)(1)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Why what?
> 
> 404.2(C)


You do it any way you want. But I know for a fact that resi shops around here are ending their 3 ways with a 3 wire like always and will continue to do so. Exception 2 seems to say if you have means to access the box later you don't need it. Our inspectors find it ridiculous as well so they actively don't enforce it


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

hardworkingstiff said:


> I always sent the "hot" over on the white conductor, then the black and red were the travelers. I can't find it (am not going to look), but I thought it was a code issue if you used the white as a traveler (it will switch between "hot" and "not hot" in reference to ground).



I posted it and if that white is the return to the light it is an issue. It can be a traveler IMO.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Have you looked at 200.7(C)(1)


Dennis, in a dead end 3-way you can wire it both ways, with the common as the feed or the switch leg.

I would use the white as the common which would be the feed, then the black & red as the travelers.

As you mentioned, you could also wire it up so that the common is the switch leg going back to the light, but that would be against the silly new code article you posted. It's not something I would do anyway.


Here is a diagram of how I would normally do it (minus the extra wire that is now required for the neutral). This is code compliant:


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

ponyboy said:


> Exception 2 seems to say if you have means to access the box later you don't need it.


There's a lot more to it than that.



I am also against changes like this... the dumbing down of our trade.


----------



## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I posted it and if that white is the return to the light it is an issue. It can be a traveler IMO.


Thanks for posting the code section.

I can see your viewpoint, and if I was the inspector I would let it go. In my opinion, the intent of the code is to keep the white wire the same potential and by making the white the hot to the dead end 3-way, it complies with the "spirit" of the law (of course as I see it :laughing: ).


----------



## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

HackWork said:


> Here is a diagram of how I would normally do it (minus the extra wire that is now required for the neutral). This is code compliant:
> 
> 
> View attachment 28634


That's the way I always wired it also.


----------



## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Always use black as the common when viable. Old houses/ wiring used to use white as the common for an FYI.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

These days, using the reidentified white as a hot is kinda out-of-date. You need 14/4 to be legal, so just use the black, red and blue and leave the white capped off.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

hardworkingstiff said:


> Thanks for posting the code section.
> 
> I can see your viewpoint, and if I was the inspector I would let it go. In my opinion, the intent of the code is to keep the white wire the same potential and by making the white the hot to the dead end 3-way, it complies with the "spirit" of the law (of course as I see it :laughing: ).


If you wire it up with the common as the feed, then it is complaint.


As Dennis pointed out, 200.7(C)(1) doesn't let you wire it up with the common as the switchleg, but there is no reason to do it that way.


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

HackWork said:


> Here is a diagram of how I would normally do it (minus the extra wire that is now required for the neutral). This is code compliant:



Okay but that is not what I asked earlier. You cannot have the white wire as a switch leg returning to the light. So if you have a fed in the ceiling and two dead end three ways one of those whites would return to the light if the black and red are travelers


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Okay but that is not what I asked earlier. You cannot have the white wire as a switch leg returning to the light. So if you have a fed in the ceiling and two dead end three ways one of those whites would return to the light if the black and red are travelers


Why would you have a feed in the ceiling and have 2 dead ends? Let's be practical, if we are wiring it new based on today's code, you wouldn't do that.


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

HackWork said:


> Why would you have a feed in the ceiling and have 2 dead ends? Let's be practical, if we are wiring it new based on today's code, you wouldn't do that.


Then what is the point of saying you use the white as a point wire if you need a neutral.

I was talking about situations where no neutral was required at the switch. I have often seen feeds in ceilings.

Being practical means there is no white wire involved in a dead end(generally- unless the walls are open)- that was what the op was talking about. What other situation would you have a white wire in a dead end 3 way


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Then what is the point of saying you use the white as a point wire if you need a neutral.


 Because the OP asked how we do it.



> I was talking about situations where no neutral was required at the switch.


 Such as? I don't remember you mentioning any situation in this thread in which a neutral wouldn't be required.



> I have often seen feeds in ceilings.


 Me too, but I don't install it that way.



> Being practical means there is no white wire involved in a dead end(generally- unless the walls are open)- that was what the op was talking about. What other situation would you have a white wire in a dead end 3 way


I think you misunderstood what the OP was talking about, read his replies on the first page. Post #10 he is trying to get around your inclusion of the neutral being required and discuss it when there is an exception. That would be a typical dead end 3-way in which we would use the white as the common and black and red as the travelers.


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

HackWork said:


> I think you misunderstood what the OP was talking about, read his replies on the first page. Post #10 he is trying to get around your inclusion of the neutral being required and discuss it when there is an exception. That would be a typical dead end 3-way in which we would use the white as the common and black and red as the travelers.


Tell me a typical situation where you would have a dead end three way and no neutral but a white wire as a traveler. The only situation I can see is if the walls are open and a neutral can be added later.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Tell me a typical situation where you would have a dead end three way and no neutral but a white wire as a traveler. The only situation I can see is if the walls are open and a neutral can be added later.


Again, that is what the OP is talking about, read post #10. You are the person to bring neutrals in the switchbox into this discussion, the OP was not talking about that.


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

For rewiring work, it is very common to feed the light, and then run two dead end three ways down to the switches. So now (probably November of this year) there will be a useless unused neutral in the box as well. Hooray.


----------



## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

Black.



See how easy that was ^ :laughing:


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

HackWork said:


> Again, that is what the OP is talking about, read post #10. You are the person to bring neutrals in the switchbox into this discussion, the OP was not talking about that.


Hack, I know what the Op was asking. I brought up the neutral because it would be an unusual case where you would have a dead end 3 way with a white wire used as a traveler with the new code. I assumed the norm. This is why I brought up the neutral and perhaps the OP has a situation where there is a 3 way dead end using the white wire. We don't see that around here anymore.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Hack, I know what the Op was asking. I brought up the neutral because it would be an unusual case where you would have a dead end 3 way with a white wire used as a traveler with the new code. I assumed the norm. This is why I brought up the neutral and perhaps the OP has a situation where there is a 3 way dead end using the white wire. We don't see that around here anymore.


Dennis, in post #10 he made it clear to forget about the neutral requirement (use the exceptions).


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

HackWork said:


> Dennis, in post #10 he made it clear to forget about the neutral requirement (use the exceptions).


I know that but I brought up the neutral long before that. Anyway just a mis communication. I think we are on the same page.


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Have you looked at 200.7(C)(1)






> If used for single-pole, 3-way or 4-way switch loops, the re-identified conductor with white or gray insulation or three continuous white stripes shall be used only for the supply to the switch, but not as a return conductor from the switch to
> the outlet


.

Exhibit 200.5 backs this up

the rationale was that _somewhere _a colored (black if RX) conductor was always visibly spliced to a white conductor

anyone opening a box that doesn't understand what s/he is looking at then is beyond _any_ possible re-identification techniques we could possibly impart

~CS~


----------



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Get one of these:








Cut a deep "V" notch into the tip.

Permanently re-identify any conductor in two seconds.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Big John said:


> Get one of these:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I didn't even cut the tip. Ill try that next time.


----------



## Briancraig81 (May 25, 2007)

Way I understood it was u still could have a dead end 3 way if the neutral could be easily fished or added later


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

404.2(C)ex(2) i believe

and it's all just for lighting loads , due to the dimmer cabal

you can switch receptacles on dead end 3ways all day long

~CS~


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Briancraig81 said:


> Way I understood it was u still could have a dead end 3 way if the neutral could be easily fished or added later


This has been argued. IMO it makes no sense simply because you would add a neutral later that may or may not be a part of the circuit and then the conductors would not be running together.

IMO, they should just allow an exception for conduit. I have told my guys just make sure there is a neutral in every box


----------



## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Have you looked at 200.7(C)(1)





Magnettica said:


> Always use black as the common when viable. Old houses/ wiring used to use white as the common for an FYI.


Old electricians that haven't done resi work since the late 70's might do it that way too, 

I still think the white should be the common ("hot") feeding the dead end 3-way.


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> > This has been argued. IMO it makes no sense simply because you would add a neutral later that may or may not be a part of the circuit and then the conductors would not be running together.
> 
> 
> wouldn't cut the afci deal, unless we're talkin' kitchen lights
> ...


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

hardworkingstiff said:


> Old electricians that haven't done resi work since the late 70's might do it that way too,
> 
> I still think the white should be the common ("hot") feeding the dead end 3-way.


Dude , me and you finally found common ground :thumbup:


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

hardworkingstiff said:


> Old electricians that haven't done resi work since the late 70's might do it that way too,
> 
> I still think the white should be the common ("hot") feeding the dead end 3-way.


we think that way for a _reason _Lou

but i'm too lazy to crack the old code books....

~CS~


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

hardworkingstiff said:


> I still think the white should be the common ("hot") feeding the dead end 3-way.


To be honest you can still find the white as a point but rarely and only in older installs. Around here the norm is the black wire as point and return. Easier for me to keep colors straight. :laughing:


----------



## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

Dennis Alwon said:


> To be honest you can still find the white as a point but rarely and only in older installs. Around here the norm is the black wire as point and return. Easier for me to keep colors straight. :laughing:


I will admit that I learned to do it that way in the early 70's (in the Tidewater, VA area). They used to let us use black tape to ID a white conductor in NM as a hot (like on a 240V circuit) and when I moved down to NC, I found out that they don't allow that, you have to use something like the marker that Hack showed.

Reading the code section you posted, I still believe the intent is to have the white being the hot on that dead end 3-way, but it's not worth losing sleep over, heck, I'll to 80 in a 70 speed limit. :laughing:


----------



## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

hardworkingstiff said:


> I will admit that I learned to do it that way in the early 70's (in the Tidewater, VA area). They used to let us use black tape to ID a white conductor in NM as a hot (like on a 240V circuit) and when I moved down to NC, I found out that they don't allow that, you have to use something like the marker that Hack showed.
> 
> Reading the code section you posted, I still believe the intent is to have the white being the hot on that dead end 3-way, but it's not worth losing sleep over, heck, I'll to 80 in a 70 speed limit. :laughing:


 
Im with you, I read it with the intent of the white being the hot on a dead end 3 way.

As far as using tape to reidentify, that's what I use. Worked in at least 10 different counties in NC and have yet to fail for using tape instead of a marker.


----------



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Unless I'm missing something, I don't think the re-identification rule has to do with the actual switch at all. 

It's designed to prevent an outlet from being fed by both a white neutral and a white switched-hot conductor.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Big John said:


> Unless I'm missing something, I don't think the re-identification rule has to do with the actual switch at all.
> 
> It's designed to prevent an outlet from being fed by both a white neutral and a white switched-hot conductor.


Exactly that.


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Big John said:


> Unless I'm missing something, I don't think the re-identification rule has to do with the actual switch at all.
> 
> It's designed to prevent an outlet from being fed by both a white neutral and a white switched-hot conductor.



I agree also. So in terms of the 3 way it doesn't really matter as long as the white is not the return up to the light. I was thinking that was how the others were hooking up when they said white to the point. I assumed on each switch.


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

well yes, i would think that _exactly_ the point Denny

doesn't matter to me what colors are on what terminals of a 3w, we _all_ know they're _all_ hots

two noodles on a fixture .......well that's just_ asking_ for trouble

~CS~


----------



## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

Although any decent electrician will be able to understand any of the wiring configurations we've discussed, I think it would be nice if a "standard" that was used everywhere (although I need to be careful what I wish for, it could open the door to "standards" that could be a pain in the buttscola).


----------



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

I'd like to get on board, but I can't. I don't even like the rule that the white has to be re-identified. Just one more code requirement to help the clueless.


----------



## SVT CAMR (Apr 17, 2012)

Line common) Black, Red, Blue 
Load common) orange, yellow, pink.
Travelers) purple or brown


----------



## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

Big John said:


> I'd like to get on board, but I can't. I don't even like the rule that the white has to be re-identified. Just one more code requirement to help the clueless.


Now with the requirement of a neutral in every switch box, it is pretty necessary to re-identify the white wire, or else making up junctions after rough is a beeotch.


----------



## HadItUpToHere (Aug 16, 2013)

Can someone please explain to me, in a very clear and simple way exactly why there needs to be a neutral at the dead end of a three way? I'm in Canada and I know its NEC but I'm curious the reasoning behind it.

I almost always use the black as the common on the dead end of the three way and the red and white as travellers.

I wire 97% of my three ways that way.


----------



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

HadItUpToHere said:


> Can someone please explain to me, in a very clear and simple way exactly why there needs to be a neutral at the dead end of a three way? I'm in Canada and I know its NEC but I'm curious the reasoning behind it.
> 
> I almost always use the black as the common on the dead end of the three way and the red and white as travellers.
> 
> I wire 97% of my three ways that way.


It has to do with devices starting to put too much current on the equipment conductors.


----------



## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

backstay said:


> It has to do with devices starting to put too much current on the equipment grounding conductors.


Fixed it for you.


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

HadItUpToHere said:


> Can someone please explain to me, in a very clear and simple way exactly why there needs to be a neutral at the dead end of a three way? I'm in Canada and I know its NEC but I'm curious the reasoning behind it.


Many motion sensors, occupancy sensors, electronic timers etc used to be made where they used the equipment grounding conductor as a current carrying conductor. The device would put just a small amount of current on the equipment grounding conductor. Since office buildings etc have gotten to use these sensors everywhere the amount of current would be too great so they are now making these devices with a connection to the neutral rather than the equipment grounding conductor.


----------



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

hardworkingstiff said:


> Fixed it for you.


Thank you, I knew what I meant. Just couldn't get the fingers to play along.


----------



## HadItUpToHere (Aug 16, 2013)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Many motion sensors, occupancy sensors, electronic timers etc used to be made where they used the equipment grounding conductor as a current carrying conductor. The device would put just a small amount of current on the equipment grounding conductor. Since office buildings etc have gotten to use these sensors everywhere the amount of current would be too great so they are now making these devices with a connection to the neutral rather than the equipment grounding conductor.


Thank you!

I've been using some of these occupancy sensors in entryways recently. I wonder if they do this.


----------



## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Okay but that is not what I asked earlier. You cannot have the white wire as a switch leg returning to the light. So if you have a fed in the ceiling and two dead end three ways one of those whites would return to the light if the black and red are travelers


 The old 3 up, 3 down method back when the hot hit the light box.


----------



## Blockisle9 (Oct 31, 2020)

Okay, sorry to bring up an old post. Was talking to someone about 3 ways the other day and he told me the attached is not allowed anymore. I haven’t done any residential in probably 20 years. But I thought only one of the switch locations require a neutral not both. Other than the white wire not being re-identified, does this meet the NEC code?


----------



## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

All switch locations require a neutral now. so to make the above picture legal you would take power to one box and start your lights from the second, taking the neutral between switches instead of the hot.


----------



## Blockisle9 (Oct 31, 2020)

I was under the impression that not all switch locations have this requirement. For instance, a hall with both in close proximity of each other, then only one wound require it.


----------



## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

There may be different interpretation between Canada and the USA. In Canada (2018 Code), unless the wiring method is conduit, there is only one way to wire a 3-way now. Remember in Canada we do not have NMD90 in four conductor. If the wiring method is conduit then the above is perfectly acceptable in Canada, which is not where the @Blockisle9 is from.

Cheers
John


----------



## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

Julius793 said:


> When you have a dead end three way what color do you make the common? Black red or white?


Black


----------



## HertzHound (Jan 22, 2019)

I wasn’t go to respond because it was an old thread. But because it’s still going, I’ve always used black as the point.

I went probably twenty years in the trade and that’s all I’ve ever seen. New work or old work, it was (and still is) black as the point. Then one day some guy says I’m doin’ it wrong? Consensus on the job was that technically he is right, but still wrong. Black as the point always works in every situation.


----------



## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

If you use black as the common, regardless of how it is wired you will always end up with a black and white wire in the fixture. If you don't use the black, there are combinations where you will end up having two white wires at the fixture and then you have to start identifying one of them.

Cheers
John


----------



## Quickservice (Apr 23, 2020)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Dead end 3 ways are not compliant with the 2011 nec.
> 
> I made the black wire the common and red/white the travelers.


Same here, but I always put red phase tape on the whites.... may help some poor DIY'er in the future.


----------



## Quickservice (Apr 23, 2020)

Darn.... there I go again posting a reply to an old old thread. Some day I will learn to look at the date!


----------



## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

Navyguy said:


> If you use black as the common, regardless of how it is wired you will always end up with a black and white wire in the fixture. If you don't use the black, there are combinations where you will end up having two white wires at the fixture and then you have to start identifying one of them.
> 
> Cheers
> John


You might have two whites in the box, both being common/point, but you would never have two whites at the light. Remember, we're talking about dead end 3-ways. You would still have a black & white to the light. Incoming hot/neutral into box #1, black/white from light also in box #1, 3-wire (RBW) to box #2. No way two whites are at the light. UNLESS the hot feed comes in the light box.


----------



## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

A Little Short said:


> You might have two whites in the box, both being common/point, but you would never have two whites at the light. Remember, we're talking about dead end 3-ways. You would still have a black & white to the light. Incoming hot/neutral into box #1, black/white from light also in box #1, 3-wire (RBW) to box #2. No way two whites are at the light. UNLESS the hot feed comes in the light box.


My comment was not specifically about "dead end" 3-ways, but 3-ways et al. Regardless of how it is wired (meaning any possible combination of power, switched leg, etc), if you make the black the common, you will never have two whites in the same box (at the fixture) where one is neutral and one is hot. I agree that there are wiring methods where that should not happen such as the traditional two-wire (feed in) one switch, 3-wire between and two-wire out (switched to the fixture) switch two, but it was not my intention to examine each individual combination / method.

Cheers
John


----------

