# Confusing make-ups. Are they ethical?



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

This thread is Cletis.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

I took over a job from a guy out here who tried that by leaving two 2 wires in a crawlspace labeling them as homeruns even though they needed to be tied together. He didn't wake up early enough in the morning to get over on me and in everyones opinion he is an ass. I'll wire things complicated only if it saves me time and material, if others cannot figure it out then maybe they need further education and experience.


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## ohiosparky99 (Nov 12, 2009)

I'd fire you


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## ohiosparky99 (Nov 12, 2009)

And yes this thread is definitely Cletis


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

kbatku said:


> OK, for a point of clarification: Sometimes I can be a bit of an ass.
> 
> That being said, I also get bored with the same-old makeups day after day, and when I'm wiring a new house I like to toss in one "land mine" to confuse some future idiot electrician or homeowner who wants to come in and mess with my box.
> 
> ...


What your doing* IS* against code, you just do not realize it. It should be wired as simple and strait forward as possible, the 'trickster' wiring makes you look like a ........


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

I might leave a hidden way to diagnose some controls, or something like that, but using 3 ways in place of a str8 forward 4 way ckt makes no sense to me, and making it harder on someone to maintain doesn't make any sense to me either. That doesn't mean I'm right, you do what you want.


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

What is the point? Who are you trying to impress?

Pete


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

Sounds like you are just pissing your boss off. Way to get a raise!!!


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

At the end of the day he *is* your boss; if he's not asking you to do anything illegal or dangerous, then you are rightfully being paid to do it.

I see nothing inherently wrong with changing things up as long as it doesn't waste time or money. But to be honest, I find it difficult to believe that coming up with methods to avoid using 4-way switches doesn't waste time.

If you dislike your job enough that this is necessary even despite your bosses orders, you need to start looking for different work.

-John


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## kbatku (Oct 18, 2011)

Big John said:


> If you dislike your job enough that this is necessary even despite your bosses orders, you need to start looking for different work.-John


Funny, that's what he said.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

kbatku said:


> Funny, that's what he said.


 You may not like it, but he's right.

-John


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## kbatku (Oct 18, 2011)

So, the consensus is that you should wire as simply and straight-forwardly as possible, even if it uses more time and materials, because your co-workers and people who might come across the circuits in the future are mouth-berating morons who shouldn't be confused by something new, because the boss said so?

I'm not buying it, other than the "because the boss said so" part.

Isn't it the responsibility of a (qualified) electrician to understand really, really basic electrical principles, like how a three-way system works? Or should this profession devolve to a "profession" where minimum wage flunkies and illiterates are shown basic wiring methods and turned lose on a job, under the vague "supervision" of a journeyman?

Like, you know, California?


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

simple and str8 forward usually is less time and materials. In a repetitive sense it also results in less errors. You want to reinvent the wheel with your exotic solutions, go ahead. Electrical systems we build might be around for 80 yrs; making it easy and straightforward to maintain and troubleshoot is a benefit, not a detriment. Do what you want, but you are all wet.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

If you're gonna trim it out, I think you can do it however you want. If there's even a slim chance it will be a different crew, you're wasting the guys money.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

wildleg said:


> simple and str8 forward usually is less time and materials. In a repetitive sense it also results in less errors. You want to reinvent the wheel with your exotic solutions, go ahead. Electrical systems we build might be around for 80 yrs; making it easy and straightforward to maintain and troubleshoot is a benefit, not a detriment. Do what you want, but you are all wet.


Not always. I worked for a union co that only wanted a two wire at a resi light fixture. I found it to use less wire,( by running both two and three wire cable), between fixtures and switches and branching with two cables at switch boxes and two or three cables at light fixtures. Their way would often have four to five two wire cables at a single pole switch location which is hack.No two opinions will ever be the same about circuitry.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

I wonder if the OP has ever spent time running service calls. :whistling2:


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

As long as it's done in a safe manner I don't see the harm. But, if your boss wants it done in a safe manner that differs from yours I suggest doing it his way or, like said before, start looking for a new boss that appreciates your knowledge.

Pete


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

WTF.. why would you do something on the premise that it might happen and think that some one of lesser skill may be the one who possibly encounters said issue? I think your whistling in the wind.


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## buddhakii (Jan 13, 2011)

Just look how you started your post and ended it. You think you are an ass and you think your boss is an ass. I think we all know who the ass is.


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## That's It? (Aug 31, 2011)

The answer is quite simple. Your boss told you to do it a certain way. You do it. If you do have a make-up that would be simpler, save time, save money, or save materials discuss it with said boss. I've never met a single person that didn't leave things open to discussion. But I will say come down off your high horse. Calling your boss an ass and other electricians idiots makes you sound very pretentious.


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## SparkYZ (Jan 20, 2010)

You're an ass


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

kbatku said:


> My favorite odd makeup of all time was a system that would have required six four way switches and two three-ways. I accomplished the same thing using nothing but three-way switches - all dead ends.


I'd like to see the schematic of how this works.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

hardworkingstiff said:


> I'd like to see the schematic of how this works.


Me too ........:laughing:


My money is on, it does not work, of course I think the OP is just trolling anyway.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Me too ........:laughing:
> 
> 
> My money is on, it does not work, of course I think the OP is just trolling anyway.



Hence why this thread is Cletis.


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## Wireman191 (Aug 28, 2011)

Sounds really stupid to me. He is the paying you, you should probably listen to him.
We can all do stuff, "Just because we can" but the smart guys save that crap for times when it is needed, not just to be a jackass.


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

Mr. (and I use that term loosely) KBATKU.

How would you like it, if you were out on a service call, and came across something like that.

I'll bet you would be cursing, that some dingbat made you waste time!!


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

_There's industry standards for everything. When someone does something unconventional, I would think there better be a good reason for it._


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## cultch (Aug 2, 2011)

I never think for 1 second about how can I do something unconventional or how can I mess with the next guy. It's ALWAYS how can I get this done and get the hell outa here. 

Thinking about that other stuff is in itself a waste of time. I just wasted my time replying to it...


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

cultch said:


> It's ALWAYS how can I get this done and get the hell outa here.


Amen to that!


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

Couple of things:

1) I never worry about who might _someday_ need to go back and open up my work. The "next guy in" philosophy is stupid. 

2) I do my circuiting and taps the way they need to be for that situation. If that is confusing to someone 20 years from now, who cares?

Having said that, it makes no sense to intentionally make something confusing. You're either a teenager, or work for the government.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

InPhase277 said:


> ...It makes no sense to intentionally make something confusing. You're either a teenager, or work for the government.


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

The OP must be a really lousy electrician working for a lousy company because when it's time to install devices it shouldn't matter how it was mad up. Single pole switches should be two wires and a ground. 3 ways have the two travelers marked someway or the power/switchleg should be marked, one or the other I always strip the power and leave the the travelers alone. Four ways are just two sets of travelers that should be at least twisted so that it's obvious what sets go together. The boss is probably upset because the OP makes to many mistakes and someone has to go back and clean up his work. After I wire a house, trim it out and turn everything on if one single thing is not working I am really ticked off. There shouldn't be any mistakes while splicing, it's not rocket science.


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## Rockyd (Apr 22, 2007)

kbatku said:


> OK, for a point of clarification: Sometimes I can be a bit of an ass.
> 
> That being said, I also get bored with the same-old makeups day after day, and when I'm wiring a new house I like to toss in one "land mine" to confuse some future idiot electrician or homeowner who wants to come in and mess with my box.
> 
> ...


Tell you what, you can do what you want to do, but you won't be on my crew. When you work for someone else, you have to remember the "golden rule" - he who has the gold, makes the rules". Don't like it? Too bad, and so sad - you're out of here! It's one thing to do something "odd" because there is no other way to do it, but to not follow direction, because you want to be an ass - don't let the door hit you on the ass on the way out! send you back to the books, or wherever it is that you come from.


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## FireInTheWire (Oct 30, 2011)

It sounds like you are bored with your job. 

While I sometimes like to show other people that I know something, I never leave them with a mystery to solve just to prove that I know how to do something fancy.

I feel that when it comes to electrical, it's a good idea to keep it straightforward if possible!

Perhaps if boredom is causing you to act out in this way you should try a different field!


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Just for fun, lets see the diagram of this setup.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Peter D said:


> Just for fun, lets see the diagram of this setup.


We will see zero unemployment before we see a working diagram.


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## FireInTheWire (Oct 30, 2011)

BBQ said:


> We will see zero unemployment before we see a working diagram.


LOL seriously :laughing:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

BBQ said:


> We will see zero unemployment before we see a working diagram.


Yeah, I know. :thumbup:


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

It sounds like you are hating on some people or don't like your job. 

Keep in mind that your making trouble shooting more difficult, Im the one who usually has to spend extra time and energy trouble shooting your complex circuits.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

I once left 3 three wires in J box on a job , ran out of two wire. Simple feed in and two feeds out to two motion sensors. Got fired after I neutral dropped truck in front of manager. Got a very polite soft spoken call a month later from manager even using the P word. Guy they sent to finish couldn't understand what I did.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

kbatku said:


> So, the consensus is that you should wire as simply and straight-forwardly as possible, even if it uses more time and materials, because your co-workers and people who might come across the circuits in the future are mouth-berating morons who shouldn't be confused by something new, because the boss said so?
> 
> I'm not buying it, other than the "because the boss said so" part.
> 
> ...


...give a* detailed* example of how you save money wiring a house using *'the Kabatku wiring method'*


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

The reason "standard practices" have been put in place is because they are proven methods for safe, practical, and reliable installations. Doing something more elaborate for the intended purpose of nothing more than sticking it to the next guy is not only a reflection of your skill level but also your character. Once upon a time we all were (including yourself!) the new guy trying to learn a skill to make our way in this world. Dont forget that!
If I caught you doing that BS after I warned you not to, you'd be painting houses instead of wiring them.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

The thought has never crossed my mind to "try" to make things more complex for the next guy. Unfortunately due to time contraints and unrealistic expectations I'll occasionaly have to do things that will make it complex for the next guy. IE: not marking circuit numbers on j-boxes and wires when you have multiple multiwire branch circuits. The fact is when the boss, the guy that writes my paychecks, is breathing down my neck I WILL find a way to work faster.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

kbatku said:


> OK, for a point of clarification: Sometimes I can be a bit of an ass.
> 
> That being said, I also get bored with the same-old makeups day after day, and when I'm wiring a new house I like to toss in one "land mine" to confuse some future idiot electrician or homeowner who wants to come in and mess with my box.
> 
> ...


Wiring methods... straight forward as possible. They should be correct...and to code. Also, I can tell you are a good electrician. Don't leave traps. It serves no purpose.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

kbatku said:


> My favorite odd makeup of all time was a system that would have required six four way switches and two three-ways. I accomplished the same thing using nothing but three-way switches - all dead ends.



I'm surprised this thread got as much traction as it did considering what he posted is electrically impossible with that many locations using only 3-way switches. Are you guys that easily trolled? :001_huh:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Peter D said:


> I'm surprised this thread got as much traction as it did considering what he posted is electrically impossible with that many locations using only 3-way switches. Are you guys that easily trolled? :001_huh:



It works when you use CAT3 / RG-6 / lamp cord. :laughing:


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Peter D said:


> I'm surprised this thread got as much traction as it did considering what he posted is electrically impossible with that many locations using only 3-way switches. Are you guys that easily trolled? :001_huh:


I am tired.


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## cultch (Aug 2, 2011)

Peter D said:


> I'm surprised this thread got as much traction as it did considering what he posted is electrically impossible with that many locations using only 3-way switches. Are you guys that easily trolled? :001_huh:


Tell the truth...You tried to draw it up didn't you...


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## rdr (Oct 25, 2009)

I called BS soon as I read it but this is an entertaining thread. Keep it up! :thumbup:


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

I have this bad habit of giving people the benefit of a doubt.

I assumed there might even be some ridiculous non-code-compliant way to do it, but I didn't try to figure it out.

-John


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

Big John said:


> I have this bad habit of giving people the benefit of a doubt.
> 
> I assumed there might even be some ridiculous non-code-compliant way to do it, but I didn't try to figure it out.
> 
> -John


Who cares what he is trying to prove, he's an asshole


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## rdr (Oct 25, 2009)

Big John said:


> I have this bad habit of giving people the benefit of a doubt.
> 
> I assumed there might even be some ridiculous non-code-compliant way to do it, but I didn't try to figure it out.
> 
> -John


Heard of some screwy ways to do 2 or 3 three ways but don't think you could make six work. Slept a few times since that one was explained to me though.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

dronai said:


> Who cares what he is trying to prove, he's an asshole


 LMAO. Point taken.

-John


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

cultch said:


> Tell the truth...You tried to draw it up didn't you...


:laughing:

I actually did think about it for a moment but quickly realized how strong the troll was with this one.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

I to dont get his three ways either. Im visual, I need a diagram.


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## jmsmith (Sep 10, 2011)

Big John said:


> I have this bad habit of giving people the benefit of a doubt.
> 
> I assumed there might even be some ridiculous non-code-compliant way to do it, but I didn't try to figure it out.
> 
> -John


You can replace a four-way with 2 three-ways wired common-to-common.... But why the waste of time and money? And the older I get, my memory ain't as keen. It would be MY dumb luck to go back on a job only to find I had sabotaged MYSELF!
:lol:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

jmsmith said:


> You can replace a four-way with 2 three-ways wired common-to-common....


Huh?


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## jmsmith (Sep 10, 2011)

BBQ said:


> Huh?


Yes, sir.... Hot to common of first three-way traveler and switch leg to second three-way. Common of second three-way to common of the third three-way. Traveler and switch leg of this to traveler and switch leg of the fourth three-way. The common of this switch goes on to the light. The two three-ways in the middle that are wired common-to-common, though not a common handle, will FUNCTION like a four way (this is probably what I should have said).


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## jmsmith (Sep 10, 2011)

jmsmith said:


> Yes, sir.... Hot to common of first three-way traveler and switch leg to second three-way. Common of second three-way to common of the third three-way. Traveler and switch leg of this to traveler and switch leg of the fourth three-way. The common of this switch goes on to the light. The two three-ways in the middle that are wired common-to-common, though not a common handle, will FUNCTION like a four way (this is probably what I should have said).


Sorry BBQ... In order for this to work, the two three-ways that are tied common-to-common WOULD HAVE TO BE OPERATED AS A UNIT (both handles up or down at the same time). Will not work otherwise. Forgot that point! Have a good day.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

jmsmith said:


> Sorry BBQ... In order for this to work, the two three-ways that are tied common-to-common WOULD HAVE TO BE OPERATED AS A UNIT (both handles up or down at the same time). Will not work otherwise. Forgot that point! Have a good day.


Im going back to candles


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

360max said:


> Im going back to candles


If using candles OSHA requires a hot work permit and proper PPE. :jester:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

BBQ said:


> If using candles OSHA requires a hot work permit and proper PPE. :jester:


Don't forget to have a fire extinguisher near by, install a sprinkler system, and have an eyewash station available. :laughing:


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## jmsmith (Sep 10, 2011)

480sparky said:


> Don't forget to have a fire extinguisher near by, install a sprinkler system, and have an eyewash station available. :laughing:


One last item here: WTH do you put your required labeling on the candle????
:laughing:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

jmsmith said:


> One last item here: WTH do you put your required labeling on the candle????
> :laughing:


Near the bottom but you also have to make the bottom 6" of any candle non-flammable.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

or 18" if it's in a commercial garage or airplane hangar


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ke5Mr5eCF2U I think this sums it up nicely.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

wildleg said:


> or 18" if it's in a commercial garage or airplane hangar


 :lol: A class 1 hazardous location candle.

-John


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## jmsmith (Sep 10, 2011)

BBQ said:


> Near the bottom but you also have to make the bottom 6" of any candle non-flammable.


Got ya!!! :lol:


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## jmsmith (Sep 10, 2011)

wildleg said:


> or 18" if it's in a commercial garage or airplane hangar


That is if it is for a Classified Location, right??? :jester:


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## LARMGUY (Aug 22, 2010)

Back on topic,
I think you answered your own question in your first statement.

Apparently you have to show off your "wiring skills" even though it pi$$es off the boss to which you have ample evidence of.

I would do just the opposite. I would wire the circuit as specified to work unless I ran into problems out of my control. If that happened I would also document it somehow and leave that explanation on site in or next to the panel containing that circuit. Just to be nice for the next guy because as was often the case the next guy was me.


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## sparkey1305 (Mar 27, 2011)

He IS the boss. It's his company and he signs your paycheck. There are a lot of electricians out there looking for work... just sayin'...


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

user4818 said:


> :laughing:
> 
> I actually did think about it for a moment but quickly realized how strong the troll was with this one.





> Originally Posted by *Peter D*
> _I'm surprised this thread got as much traction as it did considering what he posted is electrically impossible with that many locations using only 3-way switches. Are you guys that easily trolled? :001_huh:_




How come the user name says "user4818" and when you are quoted it says"Peter D". Have you hacked that up too?:laughing:


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## JDJ (Aug 9, 2011)

Bend the conduit in your pipe runs like you're the one pulling the wire. First rule taught to me by an old head.


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## westcojack (Dec 2, 2011)

Sabotage is the correct word.
If the boss sent someone else to do some work on the job, why waste his time too?
Good luck with your next company.


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