# Making an industrial compactor repeat



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

I would use a counter.


But then again I would not do this at all, huge liability issue.


----------



## Peewee0413 (Oct 18, 2012)

They have counter relays. Put that and a timer to act as a backup so just in case.


----------



## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

BBQ said:


> I would use a counter.
> 
> 
> But then again I would not do this at all, huge liability issue.


Yah indeed, I wouldn't want to be modifying that thing's intended function.

OP, why can't they just stand there and push the button 3 times? They don't want a worker standing there waiting for the machine to cycle? Understandable but generally people who put garbage into compactors don't get paid a lot.


----------



## rcrawfish (Jan 9, 2013)

The compactor itself is installed at a government building and that's what they want. I was thinking of wiring a counter on some normally close contacts so when the ram returns to home the contacts close allowing it to trigger the counter and then it triggers the start relay. I was hoping for help with which counter and what setting it needs to be on. I have never wired a counter. I'm sure it's very similar to a standard relay just was hoping for a staring point.


----------



## rcrawfish (Jan 9, 2013)

erics37 said:


> Yah indeed, I wouldn't want to be modifying that thing's intended function.
> 
> OP, why can't they just stand there and push the button 3 times? They don't want a worker standing there waiting for the machine to cycle? Understandable but generally people who put garbage into compactors don't get paid a lot.


They have a large hopper which hold more trash than what can fit in front of the ram. Once they fill the hopper and close the door they have to let it cycle then but the start button again. The cycle time is about 1 minute.


----------



## ilikepez (Mar 24, 2011)

What happens if the guy tries to snag a dollar bill out of it and falls in?


----------



## rcrawfish (Jan 9, 2013)

*not trying to be smart ass but.*



ilikepez said:


> What happens if the guy tries to snag a dollar bill out of it and falls in?


In the schematic you can see a magnetic door switch. If the door is open it can't run. Good question. It's a government contract and they are really pick lol.


----------



## Peewee0413 (Oct 18, 2012)

Do you have limit switches for piston position?


----------



## Peewee0413 (Oct 18, 2012)

I would bet something is on the upper at least.


----------



## rcrawfish (Jan 9, 2013)

No limit switches its runs off a pressure switch and a timer for reverse.


----------



## Peewee0413 (Oct 18, 2012)

Timed relay? If so it can steal a contact as signal. Hook it to a programmable counter with latching capability and resets after setpoint( 3 cycles). The hot wire from start button will run to the latching circuit of the controller. When the limit of 3 cycles happen(timer timing out three times) it'll drop the latch waiting for the button push again. This is just a basic statement. Its may not be the exact process and other relays may be needed. Hard to think of one without seeing it. I can assure you they make a controller as stated above. Trouble is getting one for your voltage and specific process. Also gotta give me a break, I have been drinking and might have left something out.


----------



## Peewee0413 (Oct 18, 2012)

Might not work depending on what the circuit is doing on down movement. If it has its own latch circuit, which it might. it adds drama.


----------



## Peewee0413 (Oct 18, 2012)

Either way no process is impossible, just sometimes difficult. The question to be asked. Is it worth the trouble? Somebody is standing there anyways, getting paid to push the button. Make em push it three times..


----------



## rcrawfish (Jan 9, 2013)

Peewee0413 said:


> Timed relay? If so it can steal a contact as signal. Hook it to a programmable counter with latching capability and resets after setpoint( 3 cycles). The hot wire from start button will run to the latching circuit of the controller. When the limit of 3 cycles happen(timer timing out three times) it'll drop the latch waiting for the button push again. This is just a basic statement. Its may not be the exact process and other relays may be needed. Hard to think of one without seeing it. I can assure you they make a controller as stated above. Trouble is getting one for your voltage and specific process. Also gotta give me a break, I have been drinking and might have left something out.


So basically it's as if I held the start button for three cycles correct. If so it will not work. If I hold the start button when it its full forward and ready to drop back the contacts change state and it trys going back forward.


----------



## Peewee0413 (Oct 18, 2012)

Boy its hard to see the unseen. There is a latch circuit already for the compacting motion, right? Once you hit your pressure it releases and starts timer for reversing motion? Or do you have to hold the button to compact? Release for reverse? Im certain I can help i just might not see the picture yet. Maybe if I knew exactly how the process works now (electrically), I will be better help.


----------



## rcrawfish (Jan 9, 2013)

Peewee0413 said:


> Boy its hard to see the unseen. There is a latch circuit already for the compacting motion, right? Once you hit your pressure it releases and starts timer for reversing motion? Or do you have to hold the button to compact? Release for reverse? Im certain I can help i just might not see the picture yet. Maybe if I knew exactly how the process works now (electrically), I will be better help.


100% correct but i just hit the button once and let it go and it completes the cycle.


----------



## Peewee0413 (Oct 18, 2012)

Pressure switch inline with latch circuit? The timer starts when latch is lost?


----------



## rcrawfish (Jan 9, 2013)

I believe the timer starts when I hit start and the motor starter opens when it hits high pressure on the return stroke.


----------



## Peewee0413 (Oct 18, 2012)

One pressure switch for the whole setup? What triggers the reverse? And if there's only one pressure switch maybe you have a standard relay in there too?


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

rcrawfish said:


> They have a large hopper which hold more trash than what can fit in front of the ram. Once they fill the hopper and close the door they have to let it cycle then but the start button again. The cycle time is about 1 minute.


Yes and that is the same at all of the couple hundred supermarkets we service.

And yes they also have door switches, and yes they would love it if we made them run three cycles. 

Still I would not do it.


Same reason many commercial roll up doors require the close button to be held until the door is shut.


----------



## rcrawfish (Jan 9, 2013)

Heres the deal. We have 8 compactors that we installed all used. They are at various government locations. The compactors that were there before ours were all plc/smart relay controlled. Two of the ones I installed have plcs so I just reprogrammed them. The rest they are insisting be the same. I would love to keep them like they are but the big man wants them to run 3 times. Yes there is a standard relay along with the timer.


----------



## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

Expensive version: diagnose the operating sequence, evaluate ALL possible new mechanical stresses and safety concerns, buy, install and program a PLC and any added safety systems, test.

Cheap version: sign on the front that says "Push Button 3 times"

I once got involved in a trash compactor lawsuit. My employer had just provided the starter control panel to a compactor service guy to run an auger feed to the compactor, who installed it and then changed the compactor controller circuit to provide something different that the grocery store operator wanted, involving multiple compressions interlocked with the auger feed. In that process, for some reason he re-wired the power to the hydraulic pump, tapping it off of the LINE side of our disconnect. Something went wrong with his control modifications, an operator got his hand caught in the auger and was pulled in. A coworker threw the disconnect for the auger, but before he could get his arm out, the hydraulic ram activated and tore it off at the elbow. in the lawsuit, his lawyer sued EVERYBODY that was even remotely associated with this debacle. We had nothing to do with the fact that throwing the disconnect handle on our panel had no effect on the power to the hydraulic pump, we never had any connection to that (my involvement was in evaluating the entire system after the fact). Didn't matter, they sued anyway. We won (in that we were held harmless) but our legal fees alone were $250,000.


----------



## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

Big man is gonna have to buck up for the PLCs. Haha. Copy existing. Charge big bucks taxes just went up to pay for it lol.


----------



## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

Having two strokes of the ram is no different than one stroke. Three strokes is not any different than one.
No different than one long stroke or one short stroke.


----------



## LARMGUY (Aug 22, 2010)

JRaef said:


> Expensive version: diagnose the operating sequence, evaluate ALL possible new mechanical stresses and safety concerns, buy, install and program a PLC and any added safety systems, test.
> 
> Cheap version: sign on the front that says "Push Button 3 times"
> 
> I once got involved in a trash compactor lawsuit. My employer had just provided the starter control panel to a compactor service guy to run an auger feed to the compactor, who installed it and then changed the compactor controller circuit to provide something different that the grocery store operator wanted, involving multiple compressions interlocked with the auger feed. In that process, for some reason he re-wired the power to the hydraulic pump, tapping it off of the LINE side of our disconnect. Something went wrong with his control modifications, an operator got his hand caught in the auger and was pulled in. A coworker threw the disconnect for the auger, but before he could get his arm out, the hydraulic ram activated and tore it off at the elbow. in the lawsuit, his lawyer sued EVERYBODY that was even remotely associated with this debacle. We had nothing to do with the fact that throwing the disconnect handle on our panel had no effect on the power to the hydraulic pump, we never had any connection to that (my involvement was in evaluating the entire system after the fact). Didn't matter, they sued anyway. We won (in that we were held harmless) but our legal fees alone were $250,000.


 
Thus proving once again to keep good records of what was installed, where, and how it works. I keep records of doors and their programming in all access control systems. I keep a record of all alarm systems I install and their programming.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

John Valdes said:


> Having two strokes of the ram is no different than one stroke. Three strokes is not any different than one.
> No different than one long stroke or one short stroke.


:laughing:

John for a guy that at times seems very sharp, sometimes you don't seem so.


----------



## rcrawfish (Jan 9, 2013)

Regardless if its one stroke or three it still won't run with the door open. How is it a different liability issue with a different amount of strokes. Is there something I'm missing. What I want is when the ram comes all the way back and the contact closes it triggers the start circuit to run again for a max of three times. Again I really appreciate the feedback thanks.


----------



## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

It's not so much a different liability. You assume liability for the complete operation if you modify it.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

nolabama said:


> It's not so much a different liability. You assume liability for the complete operation if you modify it.


I agree.

I am by no means a lawyer, but in my mind repairing an item to it's original configuration is much easier to defend against then trying to defend yourself for deliberately modifying it.

Remember, it cost the company JRaef worked for a 1/4 of a million and they won.


----------



## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

Ask the owner of the compactor for a 3 cycle ram.

If your company owns it, have someone who is qualified to make the modifications do it..


----------



## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

I am not saying don't do it. I don't believe in letting the lawyers dictate to me how I work. However, if you have like 50k of builders risk, leave it alone. Big bucks insurance go right ahead. Know your limitations as a company on this. Augers and rams do look bad in court. 

Know this if you do install a PLC and modify it, you own it. That's all. Just know that.


----------



## Peewee0413 (Oct 18, 2012)

If the single cycle takes one minute what would you actually accomplish in the two minutes you save with it compacting 3 times in auto?


----------



## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

It's a catch 22, the NEC does not cover it, but I'm sure there is a standard for how it is to be used. 

Under proper Engineering Supervision, modification would be allowed to be made by qualified personal.


----------



## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

Back to jump street the best way to do this is with a PLC?


----------



## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

nolabama said:


> Back to jump street the best way to do this is with a PLC?


With proper safeties installed.
A PLC would work. I would like hard wired relays for durability. But I'm old.


----------



## Peewee0413 (Oct 18, 2012)

Like I said at the beginning they make small counting controllers. I would have to double check, but Red Lion may be one company who makes one. Hardest part is finding where to tie in the count, latch and reset. Don't see why you cant modify it. Just as long as it meets the standards and is fail safe.


----------



## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

Why would you want/need a latching relay?


----------



## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

BBQ said:


> ...
> _*Remember, it cost the company JRaef worked for a 1/4 of a million and they won. *_


Bingo! That is the EXACT point I was trying to make. The moment you modify ANYTHING on that compactor control system, your name becomes attached to it and if something goes haywire, even if it had NOTHING to do with you, it could bankrupt you. Don't believe me? Run this concept past your liability insurance underwriter, see what he thinks.

I'm not saying we should all be consulting our insurance agents any time we do a project, I am saying that when you MODIFY someone else's machine control system, and there are safety issues involved, you often are exposing yourself to a LOT more than you may bargain for. It's about the Law of Unintended Consequences. If you are going to do anything on a system like this, over do it, and charge up the ying-yang for it.


----------



## 123 (Oct 28, 2012)

Here in Canada equipment gets inspected before use. The inspecting company takes on 
the risk. They will want dual channel safety, e stops, new door switches that lock when you start
the equipment, dump valve,
signage, and warnings possibly a training for the operator.
PLC is a way to go.
The inspecting company will ask for more money than the guy doing the job gets.
Here it is called PSR.


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

JRaef said:


> Don't believe me? Run this concept past your liability insurance underwriter, see what he thinks.


I can hear that conversation now.

Us: Uh.... we modified this commercially produced compactor so the operator didn't have to hold the button down and some operator ****ed up and cause there was no dead man switch he got compacted and bailed into a bail of trash.

Them: ....Click.... dial tone :laughing:


Last compactor I serviced the trash monkey/maintenance guy had bypassed the door safety switches cause they failed. Only reason it got noticed is cause the whole damn thing finally failed and I wouldn't fix it unless we could put new safety switches on too.


----------



## Peewee0413 (Oct 18, 2012)

nolabama said:


> Why would you want/need a latching relay?


For a user friendly system use a programmable counter with inputs and outputs. With a programmable counter you can have it maintain a so called "latch" to take place of the push button . It can act like a latching circuit, just to be interrupted by the timed relay and pressure switch he has. Continuing till three cycles are made? Wouldn't that work? Its easier to to push it three times, but the counter is easier than writing logic. If im wrong correct me. I still haven't gotten that whole electrical process understood. I say keep the old circuit and just modify it. Helps if the controller or plc fails, and you need to get it back running.


----------



## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

Oh I see said the blind man. No way in hell I'm putting a latch on a dead man switch.


----------



## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

Peewee0413 said:


> . If im wrong correct me. I still haven't gotten that whole electrical process understood. .[/pQUOTE]
> 
> I vote this as best reply of the week.


----------



## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

I couldn't make it do what the op wants. I don't know how. So I feel the guys pain.


----------



## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

BBQ said:


> I agree.
> I am by no means a lawyer, but in my mind repairing an item to it's original configuration is much easier to defend against then trying to defend yourself for deliberately modifying it.
> Remember, it cost the company JRaef worked for a 1/4 of a million and they won.





nolabama said:


> It's not so much a different liability. You assume liability for the complete operation if you modify it.


Maybe I am not understanding who the OP is. If he works for the people that are asking him to do this, then I say he can and should do it.
Now, if he is a contractor, then I would not modify anything without the proper procedure being utilized.

Remember guys. I come from an environment where I was asked to do things like this by my company. Not some other company.

One more thing. While I do get the liability and modification issue, what is real world wrong with one vs three ram strokes. Is it because everyone expects the ram to come back and stop and stay there?
That would be silly logic.
Everyone expects a car to make noise until they realize its a hybrid electric car.
I have had machines that do many more things than 3 ram strokes.
They are requirements for the operation and many things we do are resourceful and creative and out of the manufactures model.
This IS a requirement in an industrial environment.



nolabama said:


> Why would you want/need a latching relay?


There are lots of ways to modify this circuit to behave as he wants it to.
A PLC while the most popular, is not required. A PLC would require a complete rebuild. With this existing logic, a few additions to this circuit is all thats required to get the result you want.
Remember. We did these things long before PLC's.


----------



## rcrawfish (Jan 9, 2013)

nolabama said:


> Oh I see said the blind man. No way in hell I'm putting a latch on a dead man switch.


Its not a deadman switch. You push the button once let it go and it completes one cycle as your walking away. By the way I am not a contractor I work for a refuse company with locations all over the US. Sorry I have not had much Input I have been to busy worrying about my house flooding from all this rain lol. Anyways thanks again for the comments. Give me a few days and I will try and rewrite the schematic to include a counter and maybe y'all can proof it for me lol


----------



## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

If its not a deadman switch then go for it.


----------



## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

rcrawfish said:


> Its not a deadman switch. You push the button once let it go and it completes one cycle as your walking away. By the way I am not a contractor I work for a refuse company with locations all over the US. Sorry I have not had much Input I have been to busy worrying about my house flooding from all this rain lol. Anyways thanks again for the comments. Give me a few days and I will try and rewrite the schematic to include a counter and maybe y'all can proof it for me lol


This is what I have been waiting for you to say. You are going to make the changes yourself and then we can give feedback. :thumbsup:

When I was in your position, we had several electrical guys in the shop.
When anyone had a project like yours, he manipulated the drawing to accomplish the task. 
He would then in turn (if he had any sense) pass it around to the others for feedback. Get their impressions and advice.
This way he was able to get a consensus that it would work or someone might have an idea to save time and do a better job.
It was good for all of us.

I have seen guys write lines and lines to have one guy figure out how to do it in one or two lines of logic.


----------



## Peewee0413 (Oct 18, 2012)

Im saying, They make user friendly controllers that will do it with little circuit changing and simple parameters.


----------



## spec grade (Oct 8, 2009)

I used to work for a company that wired a lot of these compactors for paper recyling companies. What I would suggest is install a set of sonic eyes in the hopper. Usaully if the compactor is modern there is an option on the diagrahm of where in the control circuit they want it. This way the compactor will run as long as needed to clear all the trash. Contact the manufactor if this option is not on the diagrahm. Let them take the liability for any changes.


----------



## Peewee0413 (Oct 18, 2012)

Ya. Will work with minimum wiring changes


----------



## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

rcrawfish said:


> Its not a deadman switch. You push the button once let it go and it completes one cycle as your walking away. By the way I am not a contractor I work for a refuse company with locations all over the US. Sorry I have not had much Input I have been to busy worrying about my house flooding from all this rain lol. Anyways thanks again for the comments. Give me a few days and I will try and rewrite the schematic to include a counter and maybe y'all can proof it for me lol


One of the compactors I changed allowed 2 cycles on a keyed switch. Pushing the button allowed only one. 
This prevented not so bright people from leaving the compactor unattended.


----------



## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

spec grade said:


> I used to work for a company that wired a lot of these compactors for paper recyling companies. What I would suggest is install a set of sonic eyes in the hopper. Usaully if the compactor is modern there is an option on the diagrahm of where in the control circuit they want it. This way the compactor will run as long as needed to clear all the trash. Contact the manufactor if this option is not on the diagrahm. *Let them take the liability for any changes.*


I see nothing wrong with this approach.

One "Unintended Consequence" scenario that pops to mind is that by making it do repeated cycles, you may be placing more mechanical stress on the machine than it was designed for. With one compaction cycle pr hopper, they may know that when the container is full, the mechanical stresses of the last few compaction cycles have a certain amount of "give" in that the older trash is absorbing the forced. by making each bin full get compacted 3 times, you are removing that safety margin, so when the container is near full, there is a lot more strain on the hydraulics and the seals blow out prematurely, or a shaft breaks. The machine mfr would know if this concept is viable.


----------



## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

rcrawfish said:


> Regardless if its one stroke or three it still won't run with the door open. *How is it a different liability issue with a different amount of strokes.* Is there something I'm missing. What I want is when the ram comes all the way back and the contact closes it triggers the start circuit to run again for a max of three times. Again I really appreciate the feedback thanks.


Unintended consequence #2:

Joe Dufus is the Gubment employee in charge of trash (also Senator). He has 30 trash bins to empty. Each cycle right now takes 1 minute plus load time, say 2 minutes per bin. So his trashy task takes him an hour.

Next week, you modify the circuit so that "the big man" can cram more trash in the container and thus save a few bucks per month by cancelling one container pickup. But now Joe Bubba has to still compact 30 bins, and instead of 2 minutes per load, it now takes him 4 minutes (3 x 1 minute strokes + 1 minute to reload). So his 30 bins now takes him 2 hours. This seriously cuts into his doobie-at-break time and he is pissed. 

Not being a complete idiot, he thinks; "If I could be dumping the next trash bin into the hopper at just the right time, I could actually CUT my processing time, because it is compacting 3 times anyway!" He tries it, but the door switch prevents it.

But Joe Bubba was an apprentice electrician at one time ("The bastards failed me just because of a little fire..."), so he roots around the door and discovers the switch, then figures out a way to override it. Bingo, more time for doobies! :jester:

However, one day he accidentally drops his favorite Detroit Lions cap, without which his team cannot win, into the hopper with bin #3. He desperately tries to grab it just before the ram moves, but he is too late, the ram catches his right arm, and no more Molly 5 Fingers as a girlfriend! 

His lawyer, smelling blood, hires a forensic EE to investigate why there was not enough safety interlocking. He sees the original design, then sees your mods. Even though you did NOTHING to the door switch safety circuit, and even though Joe Dufus clearly took action to compromise his own safety, YOU must hire a lawyer to defend yourself. Your lawyer, being the excellent shark that he is, wins and you get off scot free. 

He sends you a bill for $250,000, plus office supplies, stamps and extra coffee for the secretaries.


----------



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Alright, I vote that instead of "informative answers" _Jraef _is now responsible for "story time." :thumbup:


----------



## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

Big John said:


> Alright, I vote that instead of "informative answers" Jraef is now responsible for "story time." :thumbup:


But thats a quarter of a million dollar story.


----------



## rcrawfish (Jan 9, 2013)

JRaef said:


> I see nothing wrong with this approach.
> 
> One "Unintended Consequence" scenario that pops to mind is that by making it do repeated cycles, you may be placing more mechanical stress on the machine than it was designed for. With one compaction cycle pr hopper, they may know that when the container is full, the mechanical stresses of the last few compaction cycles have a certain amount of "give" in that the older trash is absorbing the forced. by making each bin full get compacted 3 times, you are removing that safety margin, so when the container is near full, there is a lot more strain on the hydraulics and the seals blow out prematurely, or a shaft breaks. The machine mfr would know if this concept is viable.


There is a pressure sensor for the forward stroke that protects the compactor.


----------



## Peewee0413 (Oct 18, 2012)

Ya I don't see how it will add tress to the machine.......


----------



## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

JRaef said:


> Unintended consequence #2:
> 
> Joe Dufus is the Gubment employee in charge of trash (also Senator). He has 30 trash bins to empty. Each cycle right now takes 1 minute plus load time, say 2 minutes per bin. So his trashy task takes him an hour.
> 
> ...


The only thing wrong with this story is that if Joe Bubba had caused a little fire he would have been promoted to supervisor. 
This would have prevented him from causing more damage. 

It also would have allowed his brilliance to shine thru by his superior problem solving abilities. 

Because he knows that it takes 2 hours to compact trash during a normal week, he would only allow 2 employees to take the trash out during the weekend. 
This overtime work would be allowed as Joe Bubba would be there to supervise this operation. 
Joe Bubba knows that his employees would not be able to perform this work correctly durning the short time they are allotted. 
Between the hours of 6am & 2pm, the OT would be finished in time for a 1.5 hour lunch. By working 8 strait hours Joe Bubba has insured that no time was wasted during the normal work week. 

See what happens when you allow an apprentice to work...


----------

