# 15 amp dedicated circuits



## BadContact (Mar 28, 2010)

Shockdoc said:


> So how many guys think i'm a hack for running dedicated 15 amp circuits for kitchen appliances and air conditioners ? Ask yourself, does it really require a 20 amp circuit ? Can I save money using 14/3 and 14/2 ? :thumbsup:


I always run a 15 amp for fridges or dishwashers. 

Air conditioners depend on the situation. If it's going to be a monster AC unit that is going to cool many rooms I'll always wire it with #12. But if the customer wants a dedicated receptacle near the window in each bedroom I'll usually use #14.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

BadContact said:


> I always run a 15 amp for fridges or dishwashers.
> 
> Air conditioners depend on the situation. If it's going to be a monster AC unit that is going to cool many rooms I'll always wire it with #12. But if the customer wants a dedicated receptacle near the window in each bedroom I'll usually use #14.


I nail microwaves, bread warmers, disposals, and instahots as well as long as the draw falls below 12 amps. I'd like to hit washing machines as well but to date I run a 12 wire w/ single outlet and convenience receptacle on the same string.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

BadContact said:


> I always run a 15 amp for fridges or dishwashers.
> 
> Air conditioners depend on the situation. If it's going to be a monster AC unit that is going to cool many rooms I'll always wire it with #12. But if the customer wants a dedicated receptacle near the window in each bedroom I'll usually use #14.


Ditto on the A/C's .


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Shockdoc said:


> So how many guys think i'm a hack for running dedicated 15 amp circuits for kitchen appliances and air conditioners ? Ask yourself, does it really require a 20 amp circuit ? Can I save money using 14/3 and 14/2 ? :thumbsup:


I don't think you're a hack for running 15 amp circuits for kitchen appliances but that doesn't mean that you're not. :whistling2:


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

electricmanscott said:


> I don't think you're a hack for running 15 amp circuits for kitchen appliances but that doesn't mean that you're not. :whistling2:


I compete against another electrician who believes 12 wire circuits for everything . He runs 12/3 to bathrooms splitting circuits for the outlet and lights. I tend to undercut 90% of his estimates to that contractor. He refers to my 14 wire as hack work. I hate to see his supply house bill.:no:


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## BadContact (Mar 28, 2010)

Shockdoc said:


> He runs 12/3 to bathrooms splitting circuits for the outlet and lights.


Why would he use a 20A circuit for bathroom lights? Makes no sense unless there is an exhaust fan that requires a 20A circuit (especially fans with heaters in them).


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

BadContact said:


> Why would he use a 20A circuit for bathroom lights? Makes no sense unless there is an exhaust fan that requires a 20A circuit (especially fans with heaters in them).


I guess he wants to help a future electrician if they decide to add a heat/ fan / light. I'm not that thoughtful about others.


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## BadContact (Mar 28, 2010)

12-3 is freaking expensive, even Home Depot sells it sky high (they are normally the cheapest on Romex). With the AFCI requirements now, I can't see too much of it being used anymore.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Can't say that I run much #14 to receptacles under any circumstance. Personal choice, I suppose. I completely understand the reasons why others do, and that's fine. I just go one notch further.


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## BadContact (Mar 28, 2010)

MDShunk said:


> Can't say that I run much #14 to receptacles under any circumstance. Personal choice, I suppose. I completely understand the reasons why others do, and that's fine. I just go one notch further.


You must have strong fingers.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

BadContact said:


> You must have strong fingers.


Not sure I follow...


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## BadContact (Mar 28, 2010)

MDShunk said:


> Not sure I follow...


Bending the thicker wires into (usually) smaller boxes used in resi could be a workout. 

The nicest thing about residential is playing with #14 :thumbsup:


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

BadContact said:


> 12-3 is freaking expensive, even Home Depot sells it sky high (they are normally the cheapest on Romex). With the AFCI requirements now, I can't see too much of it being used anymore.


I recently went to a new home he wired to finish the basement. The house was a simple two story four bedroom house. All 42 circuits in the panel were used. Knowing his work I was able to remove four circuits and consolidate them to one breaker.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Kitchen appliances I always run 12 wire, except DW.

I just don't want to have any problems with overloaded circuits and a PO homeowner or GC because I have to start cutting holes in the wall and run a heavier line.

The price difference between 12 and 14 is not greater than the gas bill and time wasted having to drive to the job to check out the problem.

There is no work out there as we all know, it is much smarter to have a happy customer who calls you back or tells a friend they have a "very good" electrician.

Would you rather lose a good account over the savings between 14 & 12?

Telling the customer you ran a heavier circuit than needed for the AC can only make you look good :thumbsup:

I don't think it's hack to run smaller size circuits.. IMO you will lose more than you gain in the end.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BadContact said:


> Bending the thicker wires into (usually) smaller boxes used in resi could be a workout.
> 
> The nicest thing about residential is playing with #14 :thumbsup:


I always use 3" deep boxes where ever I think it makes the finish easier.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

The rule with the shop I work for is #12 for receptacles no matter what. So, that's what I do. Doesn't matter what the load of the appliance is or where it is, every receptacle in the house is on a 20a. Not really the way I would do it but...


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

BadContact said:


> Bending the thicker wires into (usually) smaller boxes used in resi could be a workout.
> 
> The nicest thing about residential is playing with #14 :thumbsup:


I don't know. It's really all I know. Everyone I ever worked for did it that way, and now I do too. 14 for lights, 12 for receptacles.


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## BadContact (Mar 28, 2010)

Black4Truck said:


> I always use 3" deep boxes where ever I think it makes the finish easier.


I'm used to using mudrings and deep 1900 boxes, even on single gang switch boxes :thumbup:



The first time I did residential I said "WHY ARE THE BOXES SO SMALL!?!?! ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!?!?!" :laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## BadContact (Mar 28, 2010)

MDShunk said:


> I don't know. It's really all I know. Everyone I ever worked for did it that way, and now I do too. 14 for lights, 12 for receptacles.


Why even use 14 for lights? Why not stick with 12 for everything and get a couple more lights on each circuit?


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

BadContact said:


> Why even use 14 for lights? Why not stick with 12 for everything and get a couple more lights on each circuit?


That'd be a bit much don't you think?


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## BadContact (Mar 28, 2010)

Rudeboy said:


> That'd be a bit much don't you think?


Well, I personally think that running #12 to every receptacle is a bit much. MDShunk doesn't think so, so I was just wondering what his opinion is on lights too. If you are going to upsize to get more receptacles on a circuit, why not lights as well?


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

BadContact said:


> Why even use 14 for lights? Why not stick with 12 for everything and get a couple more lights on each circuit?


What, are you kidding me? #12 is soooo hard to bend. Why would I do that? :laughing:


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## BadContact (Mar 28, 2010)

MDShunk said:


> What, are you kidding me? #12 is soooo hard to bend. Why would I do that? :laughing:


*Touché!*


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Shockdoc said:


> I recently went to a new home he wired to finish the basement. The house was a simple two story four bedroom house. All 42 circuits in the panel were used. Knowing his work I was able to remove four circuits and consolidate them to one breaker.


 
Geez.. talk about over kill 

I have never seen a new basic (2) story house even use (30) circuits :no:

Maybe he wired it to spec drawings.. THAT I have seen before


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

BadContact said:


> Well, I personally think that running #12 to every receptacle is a bit much. MDShunk doesn't think so, so I was just wondering what his opinion is on lights too. If you are going to upsize to get more receptacles on a circuit, why not lights as well?


It's not "more receptacles on a circuit". It's giving the receptacles that would ordinarily be on any #14 circuit the added capacity provided by #12. Lighting loads are predictable. Receptacle loads are unpredictable.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Black4Truck said:


> Geez.. talk about over kill
> 
> I have never seen a new basic (2) story house even use (30) circuits :no:
> 
> Maybe he wired it to spec drawings.. THAT I have seen before


No spec, guy is just a clown:jester:


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## BadContact (Mar 28, 2010)

MDShunk said:


> It's not "more receptacles on a circuit". It's giving the receptacles that would ordinarily be on any #14 circuit the added capacity provided by #12. Lighting loads are predictable. Receptacle loads are unpredictable.


Understandable. The theory holds water, but in practice I'm not sure if it makes much of a difference. 

Maybe it's a geographical thing because I know a couple guys from the Easton and Stroudsburg area that also wire receptacles with #12, but around here it's always #14 and I just don't hear problems with people blowing circuits in newer homes. It happens in old homes when there are only 2-3 general receptacles circuits, but not in newer homes unless the owner is using something extraordinary and in that case the owner understands that there is a need for a dedicated circuit.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> It's not "more receptacles on a circuit". It's giving the receptacles that would ordinarily be on any #14 circuit the added capacity provided by #12. Lighting loads are predictable. Receptacle loads are unpredictable.


 
Marc is really making it easier for the next guy :laughing:


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Black4Truck said:


> Marc is really making it easier for the next guy :laughing:


Maybe. The more service you do, the more your new construction methods are affected by your service call experiences. I suppose that's one reason that companies heavy into service work price themselves out of the new construction market. It's damned difficult to do a bare bones install when you know full well the problems that will follow.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

BadContact said:


> Well, I personally think that running #12 to every receptacle is a bit much. MDShunk doesn't think so, so I was just wondering what his opinion is on lights too. If you are going to upsize to get more receptacles on a circuit, why not lights as well?


There's certain situations where i'd be fine with running 14 for convenience receptacle circuits. Just that's it's my companies policy never to do that. For most of the kitchen power I'd run #12 regardless. 
Do you run 14 for SABC's?


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

BadContact said:


> Understandable. The theory holds water, but in practice I'm not sure if it makes much of a difference.
> 
> Maybe it's a geographical thing because I know a couple guys from the Easton and Stroudsburg area that also wire receptacles with #12, but around here it's always #14 and I just don't hear problems with people blowing circuits in newer homes. It happens in old homes when there are only 2-3 general receptacles circuits, but not in newer homes unless the owner is using something extraordinary and in that case the owner understands that there is a need for a dedicated circuit.


Most the guys out of Stroudsburg don't have a clue. They also use t slot 20 amp receptacles in residences


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## BadContact (Mar 28, 2010)

Rudeboy said:


> There's certain situations where i'd be fine with running 14 for convenience receptacle circuits. Just that's it's my companies policy never to do that. For most of the kitchen power I'd run #12 regardless.
> Do you run 14 for SABC's?


SABC are required to be #12.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

BadContact said:


> SABC are required to be #12.


:thumbsup:


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## BadContact (Mar 28, 2010)

Shockdoc said:


> They also use t slot 20 amp receptacles in residences


I HATE seeing that. I know it's legal, but it just doesn't make sense. The entire point to a 20A receptacle with the T slot is to show that it's got a full 20A available. So what's the point of putting a 20A T slot receptacle on a circuit with other receptacles? If you use any of the other receptacles, you loose the available 20A.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

BadContact said:


> I HATE seeing that. I know it's legal, but it just doesn't make sense. The entire point to a 20A receptacle with the T slot is to show that it's got a full 20A available. So what's the point of putting a 20A T slot receptacle on a circuit with other receptacles? If you use any of the other receptacles, you loose the available 20A.


Seldom will you ever come across an item that is used in a dwelling that will need a T-slot receptacle. Nothing in particular comes to mind, for me, right now. Certain low-wattage tanning beds is the only thing I can think of, at the moment.


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## BadContact (Mar 28, 2010)

MDShunk said:


> Seldom will you ever come across an item that is used in a dwelling that will need a T-slot receptacle. Nothing in particular comes to mind, for me, right now. Certain low-wattage tanning beds is the only thing I can think of, at the moment.


 True, which is another reason why they shouldn't be using those receptacles. 

I've always used them for large super printers that require them.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

MDShunk said:


> Seldom will you ever come across an item that is used in a dwelling that will need a T-slot receptacle. Nothing in particular comes to mind, for me, right now. Certain low-wattage tanning beds is the only thing I can think of, at the moment.


As well as my Greenlee Hot box, Every dining room and kitchen should have one. That was my first tell tale sign about the installing electrician when I resided in the Pocono's. i only use single tslot receptacles on dedicated circuits or commercial installations when speced.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> Seldom will you ever come across an item that is used in a dwelling that will need a T-slot receptacle. Nothing in particular comes to mind, for me, right now. Certain low-wattage tanning beds is the only thing I can think of, at the moment.


A gaming computer I built requires a T slot 20A. As computers get more powerful, they are going to require more power.

~Matt


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## BadContact (Mar 28, 2010)

TOOL_5150 said:


> A gaming computer I built requires a T slot 20A. As computers get more powerful, they are going to require more power.
> 
> ~Matt


What model PSU did you use??


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

TOOL_5150 said:


> A gaming computer I built requires a T slot 20A. As computers get more powerful, they are going to require more power.
> 
> ~Matt


I know that some of the power supplies and cases come with a business machine cable that has a 20-amp cord cap on the end, but this just does not compute, much of the time. Redundant 500 watt power supplies with a 20 amp plug? Yeah... I see marketing at play here.


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## zen (Jun 15, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> Kitchen appliances I always run 12 wire, except DW.
> 
> I just don't want to have any problems with overloaded circuits and a PO homeowner or GC because I have to start cutting holes in the wall and run a heavier line.
> 
> ...


this is exactly how and why we do the same thing but to be fair we've rarely wired a house that was less than 5 mill. all our a/c are 6/2{except the wine units etc.} because a/c guys will say 2 ton here, 3 ton there and it be opposite on the trim. then cutting a foe or plasted wall because we wanted to use smaller wire{to save a few dollars} really pisses everyone of ,,,most importantly our builder and customers..our goal is to become that homeowners regular electrical company way after the builder is gone. and that is what we are "new construction with repeat customers":thumbsup: Paramount Power


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## zen (Jun 15, 2009)

BadContact said:


> Understandable. The theory holds water, but in practice I'm not sure if it makes much of a difference.
> 
> Maybe it's a geographical thing because I know a couple guys from the Easton and Stroudsburg area that also wire receptacles with #12, but around here it's always #14 and I just don't hear problems with people blowing circuits in newer homes. It happens in old homes when there are only 2-3 general receptacles circuits, but not in newer homes unless the owner is using something extraordinary and in that case the owner understands that there is a need for a dedicated circuit.


 here the biggest problem with #14 is distance and a dang vacum cleaner tripping it,,,i know a better placed panel etc. sub panel solves that but some of these houses are single story and longetc..


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

BadContact said:


> What model PSU did you use??


It was an Ultra X3 1600w I believe it came with a 5-15P cord as well as a 5-20P cord, And in order to use up to 1600Watts, you had to use the 5-20P cord since i believe the other cord had built in OCP.

~Matt


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> I know that some of the power supplies and cases come with a business machine cable that has a 20-amp cord cap on the end, but this just does not compute, much of the time. Redundant 500 watt power supplies with a 20 amp plug? Yeah... I see marketing at play here.


When youre throwing 4 video cards in a computer, and each card takes almost 300 Watts... it adds up quick. add in a few optical drives and a raid 5 setup.. you need a 1600W PSU.

~Matt


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## BadContact (Mar 28, 2010)

TOOL_5150 said:


> It was an Ultra X3 1600w I believe it came with a 5-15P cord as well as a 5-20P cord, And in order to use up to 1600Watts, you had to use the 5-20P cord since i believe the other cord had built in OCP.
> 
> ~Matt


Nice, it's amazing what they are up to these days. I used to overclock and watercool, but I gave it up for an iMac :thumbup: I never thought I'd see a 1,600watt PSU.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

BadContact said:


> Nice, it's amazing what they are up to these days. I used to overclock and watercool, but I gave it up for an iMac :thumbup: I never thought I'd see a 1,600watt PSU.


I've seen 1U tall rackmounts that were in the 2,000 watt range, but they're for servers .


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> I've seen 1U tall rackmounts that were in the 2,000 watt range, but they're for servers .


yeah, All my servers are 2U and up. The 1U are hard to work on since everything is jammed in so tight. Besides, I need a PCI slot, which a good handful of them do not have. For the production servers, i need 2 PCI so 2U it is. If im building a rack server its 3U or greater so I dont need to mess with riser cards or midgit backplates.

Houses wont need to have central heat soon enough with the amount of heat the 1000W+ PSU's put out. the PSUs and the A/C really make a bummer of a power bill.

~Matt


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

I've been trying to push dedicated circuits for multiple flatscreen tv installations due to their heavy draw.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Shockdoc said:


> I've been trying to push dedicated circuits for multiple flatscreen tv installations due to their heavy draw.


How much do they draw... say a 52" ?


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Shockdoc said:


> I've been trying to push dedicated circuits for multiple flatscreen tv installations due to their heavy draw.


Can't say that I've ever looked at a dataplate on a flatscreen. What sort of amp draws are you seeing? I wouldn't guess they're all that much, but maybe I'm wrong?


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Black4Truck said:


> How much do they draw... say a 52" ?


I've had units that draw as much a 5 amps, compiled with all the accessories I've been pushing this in the older homes with existing add ons to the original circuits. The "i can't be responsible if....." usually sells this.


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## jbfan (Jan 22, 2007)

My county does not aloow #14 at all, so not a big deal for me to use #12 all the time.
The county next to me allows #14, so I have a roll that thats 5 years old(don't do much work over there)


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

MDShunk said:


> Can't say that I've ever looked at a dataplate on a flatscreen. What sort of amp draws are you seeing? I wouldn't guess they're all that much, but maybe I'm wrong?


They do draw up to 5 or 6 amps depending on the quality. Enter a room where the previous electrician, HI contractor tapped six hihats off the receptacle circuit and the bathroom outlet is tied off the GP circuit


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## BadContact (Mar 28, 2010)

Shockdoc said:


> I've been trying to push dedicated circuits for multiple flatscreen tv installations due to their heavy draw.


LCDs draw less than plasmas. LED LCDs will draw even less. 

Typical 52" LCD's use about 300watts.

I've hung a LOT of flat panel TVs in my days and I have never run into a case in which the circuit couldn't handle it. You'll have less problems as more people move to LCD and then LED LCD.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

jbfan said:


> My county does not aloow #14 at all, so not a big deal for me to use #12 all the time.
> The county next to me allows #14, so I have a roll that thats 5 years old(don't do much work over there)


 It's like the 5 boros of NYC , minimum of 12 wire however certain inspectors require 15 amp fusing for residential lighting and receptacle circuits..


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

BadContact said:


> LCDs draw less than plasmas. LED LCDs will draw even less.
> 
> Typical 52" LCD's use about 300watts.
> 
> I've hung a LOT of flat panel TVs in my days and I have never run into a case in which the circuit couldn't handle it.


My bad, that was the plasma trend, still carried over as a sales pitch.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

BadContact said:


> LCDs draw less than plasmas. LED LCDs will draw even less.
> 
> Typical 52" LCD's use about 300watts.
> 
> I've hung a LOT of flat panel TVs in my days and I have never run into a case in which the circuit couldn't handle it. You'll have less problems as more people move to LCD and then LED LCD.


I just looked up a 65" and its max consumption was 460W

~Matt


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

TOOL_5150 said:


> I just looked up a 65" and its max consumption was 460W
> 
> ~Matt


I have a 65" PLASMA and it draws 3 amps. And it is pretty old, about 5 or 6 years.


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## BadContact (Mar 28, 2010)

RIVETER said:


> I have a 65" PLASMA and it draws 3 amps. And it is pretty old, about 5 or 6 years.


Did Shockdoc try to sell you a dedicated circuit???? :laughing:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> I have a 65" PLASMA and it draws 3 amps. And it is pretty old, about 5 or 6 years.


You must of paid double of what they are going for now


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## BadContact (Mar 28, 2010)

Black4Truck said:


> You must of paid double of what they are going for now


He must be rich to buy that size screen that long ago!

Remember when 50" Plasmas cost $20,000?


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

BadContact said:


> Did Shockdoc try to sell you a dedicated circuit???? :laughing:


I've got a special running today......:thumbup:


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

BadContact said:


> Did Shockdoc try to sell you a dedicated circuit???? :laughing:


Well, no. It is sitting in the basement right next to a 65" rear projection. They wont' get much use now that Kentucky is out of the tournament.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BadContact said:


> He must be rich to buy that size screen that long ago!
> 
> Remember when 50" Plasmas cost $20,000?


I remember when TOH had a 32" flat screen for $6,000.00 on Tom Silva's brothers house that burnt down


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> You must of paid double of what they are going for now


Actually it was my son-in-laws; It quit working and he was going to throw it out but I rescued it . The repair was just $400.00.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Black4Truck said:


> I remember when TOH had a 32" flat screen for $6,000.00 on Tom Silva's brothers house that burnt down


DIY electrical work as the cause ?:jester:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Shockdoc said:


> DIY electrical work as the cause ?:jester:


You know how those HI guys are.. :laughing:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Since my reputation as a hack precedes me, my answer should be predictable. I only use #12 where required by code in a dwelling unit. #14 for everything else including dedicated circuits to kitchen appliances. The only time I run #12 is by request and where I am told the load will be heavy, like a garage or basement workshop. Otherwise, code minimum.


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

Peter D said:


> Since my reputation as a hack precedes me, my answer should be predictable. I only use #12 where required by code in a dwelling unit. #14 for everything else including dedicated circuits to kitchen appliances. The only time I run #12 is by request and where I am told the load will be heavy, like a garage or basement workshop. Otherwise, code minimum.


 
:sleep1:.....I mean, that's what I do also...


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## BadContact (Mar 28, 2010)

NolaTigaBait said:


> :sleep1:....


Peter really killed this thread, huh?


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Rudeboy said:


> The rule with the shop I work for is #12 for receptacles no matter what. So, that's what I do. Doesn't matter what the load of the appliance is or where it is, every receptacle in the house is on a 20a. Not really the way I would do it but...


 

I love bidding against people like that:thumbsup:


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

mcclary's electrical said:


> I love bidding against people like that:thumbsup:


Lately though even though I figure a 15 amp line and someone else figures in a 20 they are still cheaper because they are morons that would rather whore themselves out for beer money then make a decent living


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Peter D said:


> Since my reputation as a hack precedes me, my answer should be predictable. I only use #12 where required by code in a dwelling unit. #14 for everything else including dedicated circuits to kitchen appliances. The only time I run #12 is by request and where I am told the load will be heavy, like a garage or basement workshop. Otherwise, code minimum.


Just wait until this economy has you drilling sharp angles between your points. #12 circuits, kitchen counter, d/r , bthrm gfis, laundry loop, thats it. i don't mind cheap work here and there, keeps the mind sharp on how to make money.


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

Shockdoc said:


> I nail microwaves, bread warmers, disposals, and instahots as well as long as the draw falls below 12 amps. I'd like to hit washing machines as well but to date I run a 12 wire w/ single outlet and convenience receptacle on the same string.


A single outlet and a convenience outlet on the same circuit? The laundry circuit? 
Better read 210.11(C) (2)


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## Voltech (Nov 30, 2009)

I agree with just about everyone.:thumbsup:

But we use #12 for lights and recepts, that way wire size is never an issue. It's not that much more in long the run. All it takes is for 1 branch circuit to pull to much to wash out the money you saved.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

Voltech said:


> But we use #12 for everything, that way wire size is never an issue.


Well, why not just use #10.. heck why not use #2 so that they can put a 100A sub anywhere they please in the future. :whistling2::jester:

~Matt


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

Voltech said:


> I agree with just about everyone.:thumbsup:
> 
> But we use #12 for everything, that way wire size is never an issue.


It's not an issue unless you don't know what you are doing. #12 for everything is lame.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Voltech said:


> ..........But we use #12 for lights and recepts, that way wire size is never an issue. ..........


Box fill?


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## Voltech (Nov 30, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Box fill?


Never been an issue. Our system works out very good for us.

Down here with the storms it is very common to use 20 amp BC. People hooking gens up or moving family in with there mini micros and mini fridge's. It was a big deal down here after Katrina. 20 amp is a norm here.


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## Nephi (Mar 20, 2010)

i run 4/0 for everything that way i never have to worry about line loss or overload....i reduce a size for lighting to 3/0 and I run parallel 2000s for my 150 amp services. I can rough in a trailer for just under 100,000 but i never have call backs


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Nephi said:


> i run 4/0 for everything that way i never have to worry about line loss or overload....i reduce a size for lighting to 3/0 and I run parallel 2000s for my 150 amp services. I can rough in a trailer for just under 100,000 but i never have call backs


:thumbup:


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## Nephi (Mar 20, 2010)

for commercail jobs i run rigid and pull silver


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

Black4Truck said:


> How much do they draw... say a 52" ?


that could all depend on type: projection, lcd, plasma...?


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## Nephi (Mar 20, 2010)

there is nothing wrong with installing multiple 20 amp rec on a 20 amp breaker, they are of better all around quality and there is nothing wrong with wiring appliances an dedicated 15 amp curcuits. i believe in a lot of cases running 14 and protecting at 15 for things like dishwashers, garbage disposals, fridges etc makes for a better job. fuseing at 200% of continious load isnt a good thing for appliances. Carpenters, plumbers and do it yourselfers run 12 for everything because they dont know better.


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

I prefer to over-build, 20a for recep's and 15 for lighting.


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## Nephi (Mar 20, 2010)

14 happens to be a close friend of mine .....we have a time share together so i like to throw him as much work as i can


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

In defense of the 15amp circuit guys for kitchen recep's, my house (b. 1947.), has the fridge, microwave and a counter gfi on the same wire, a #14. Never trips. Want to re-wire it one day, though, big time....and mind you, the circuit in question was done with romex in the 80's to 90's


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

Kitchens have become all 12 for me. And I like the idea for all outlets more and more. Sometimes, not always... I go above the code requirements.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

You're all a bunch of weenies. I wire all my houses with 500kcmil.


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## Old man (Mar 24, 2010)

You must have some hellacious nail up boxes then.

Seriously, There was a guy here Mr homeowner back 20 years ago that wired his house himself. All in #10-2.


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## danickstr (Mar 21, 2010)

If I open a 4 gang switch box with # 12 in it, I immediately curse the "idiot" electrician that packed it full of this thick garbage. With all the dimmers and 3-way wiring, it is absolutely unnecessary to use 12 on a full box of lighting. No normal dimmer can handle over 1000w anyway - most 600w. Anyone who assumes the HO's will not ever use dimmers is dim themselves. Use 14 on the major lighting arteries, boys.

btw 15 amp DC's are fine by me, if they are 12 amps load or less.


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

danickstr said:


> If I open a 4 gang switch box with # 12 in it, I immediately curse the "idiot" electrician that packed it full of this thick garbage. With all the dimmers and 3-way wiring, it is absolutely unnecessary to use 12 on a full box of lighting. .


...if only there was a law....


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

BuzzKill said:


> ...if only there was a law....


......that allowed killing some people........


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

480sparky said:


> ......that allowed killing some people........


yeah really.:laughing:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

BuzzKill said:


> yeah really.:laughing:


Every day of my life I'm forced to add yet another name to the list of people I'd like to kill. I can't name names, because some of them use a different one every week on electrician forums.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Every day of my life I'm forced to add yet another name to the list of people I'd like to kill. I can't name names, because some of them use a different one every week on electrician forums.


Poor BadContact ran out of here today rattled 

Something about him being honest with other names he uses here 

I posted a visitor message.. he shut down his profile on me.. WIMP :laughing:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Black4Truck said:


> Poor BadContact ran out of here today rattled
> 
> Something about him being honest with other names he uses here
> 
> I posted a visitor message.. he shut down his profile on me.. WIMP :laughing:



Don't worry. He'll come up with yet another stupid name to use. He'll back back.


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## Voltech (Nov 30, 2009)

danickstr said:


> If I open a 4 gang switch box with # 12 in it, I immediately curse the "idiot" electrician that packed it full of this thick garbage. With all the dimmers and 3-way wiring, it is absolutely unnecessary to use 12 on a full box of lighting. No normal dimmer can handle over 1000w anyway - most 600w. Anyone who assumes the HO's will not ever use dimmers is dim themselves. Use 14 on the major lighting arteries, boys.
> 
> btw 15 amp DC's are fine by me, if they are 12 amps load or less.



Man, what a great point. You would call me an "Idiot". I can't think any reason to prove you wrong....:001_huh:

You and my wife have something in common now:thumbsup:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

480sparky said:


> You're all a bunch of weenies. I wire all my houses with 500kcmil.


I run 750's all around the house and tap into it wherever I need a receptacle or switch.


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## Mr. Sparkle (Jan 27, 2009)

Peter D said:


> I run 750's all around the house and tap into it wherever I need a receptacle or switch.


I steal power from my neighbors meter with lamp cord.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Peter D said:


> I run 750's........


Honda? Yamaha? Suzuki? Kawasaki?


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## danickstr (Mar 21, 2010)

I am not trying to attack anyone, I just mean that when I open a sardine can full of 12, I am exasperated by the lack of need for such unyielding wire. I am overreactive in the field, and that is just a personal problem.

If the 4 gang #12's full of 3-ways and dimmers is in a 5 gang box with a 4 gang cover, then I am grateful.


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## GoodLookingUglyGuy (Feb 3, 2010)

I think your all squirrel food. I run dedicated 15's to every room except kit/bath/utility. and I want to know who wrote this


I do not like it Uncle Sam, I do not like it Sam I am. I do not like these dirty crooks, I do not like how they cook the books. I do not like when Congress steals, I do not like their secret deals. I do not like this Speaker Nan, I do not like this 'YES WE CAN'. I do not like this kind of hope, I do not like it ... nope! nope! nope!!!!!!!!


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## Voltech (Nov 30, 2009)

danickstr said:


> I am not trying to attack anyone, I just mean that when I open a sardine can full of 12, I am exasperated by the lack of need for such unyielding wire. I am overreactive in the field, and that is just a personal problem.
> 
> If the 4 gang #12's full of 3-ways and dimmers is in a 5 gang box with a 4 gang cover, then I am grateful.


Didnt take is as an attack at all...I see the light


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## BCSparkyGirl (Aug 20, 2009)

BadContact said:


> Why even use 14 for lights? Why not stick with 12 for everything and get a couple more lights on each circuit?


You could maybe do that down there, but up here, you have a max of 12 devices on any given branch cct, so no dice here.

As far as bathrooms go, a smart person (I argue this at work) will run a #12. I think of me and my sisters sharing a bathroom, and more than one hairdryer plugged in, etc,etc........when I redo my bathroom, I am putting in a 20A circuit.


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## BautistaElectricSP (Mar 28, 2010)

Why spend the money in materials put that towards something hat will make you mare efficient on the job.15 is good for most kitchen appliances,but I always check the specs on the equipment to be used.


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## BautistaElectricSP (Mar 28, 2010)

wrong topic sorry


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

I wire and install 20 amp circuits for everything except lighting in kitchens. 

Remember, 20 amp circuits can handle more load than 15 amp circuit can.

20 x 120 = 2400 watts
15 x 120 = 1800 watts

So technically you can save money on circuit breakers using 12/2 instead of 14/2 so hah!


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

manchestersparky said:


> A single outlet and a convenience outlet on the same circuit? The laundry circuit?
> Better read 210.11(C) (2)


It's better than the day i ran 14/2 to feed a gas stack unit. wasn't about to leave the job to purchase more 12/2. Unit had a 15 amp plug and worked fine. Hey wait a minute, dedicated appliance w/ single receptacle located directly behind it.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

BCSparkyGirl said:


> You could maybe do that down there, but up here, you have a max of 12 devices on any given branch cct, so no dice here.
> 
> As far as bathrooms go, a smart person (I argue this at work) will run a #12. I think of me and my sisters sharing a bathroom, and more than one hairdryer plugged in, etc,etc........when I redo my bathroom, I am putting in a 20A circuit.


I tend to sell a new 20A ckt for each bathroom remod job. Those turbo charged blow dryers and HI guys adding hihats to existing circuits sealed the deal for me before even start the job.


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

GoodLookingUglyGuy said:


> I think your all squirrel food. I run dedicated 15's to every room except kit/bath/utility. and I want to know who wrote this
> 
> 
> I do not like it Uncle Sam, I do not like it Sam I am. I do not like these dirty crooks, I do not like how they cook the books. I do not like when Congress steals, I do not like their secret deals. I do not like this Speaker Nan, I do not like this 'YES WE CAN'. I do not like this kind of hope, I do not like it ... nope! nope! nope!!!!!!!!


I don't know who wote it. I got it from a different site and just had to share it. :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## BCSparkyGirl (Aug 20, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> I wire and install 20 amp circuits for everything except lighting in kitchens.
> 
> Remember, 20 amp circuits can handle more load than 15 amp circuit can.
> 
> ...


yup, my hairdryer alone is 1600 watts....and Im thinkin about going for the 1800......more power ar ar ar........


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

danickstr said:


> If I open a 4 gang switch box with # 12 in it, I immediately curse the "idiot" electrician that packed it full of this thick garbage. With all the dimmers and 3-way wiring, it is absolutely unnecessary to use 12 on a full box of lighting. No normal dimmer can handle over 1000w anyway - most 600w. Anyone who assumes the HO's will not ever use dimmers is dim themselves. Use 14 on the major lighting arteries, boys.
> 
> btw 15 amp DC's are fine by me, if they are 12 amps load or less.


 we were talking about kitchen equipment and outlets........?


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

Shockdoc said:


> It's better than the day i ran 14/2 to feed a gas stack unit. wasn't about to leave the job to purchase more 12/2. Unit had a 15 amp plug and worked fine. Hey wait a minute, dedicated appliance w/ single receptacle located directly behind it.


Regardless it needed to be 20 amp. stacked unit or not, still requires a 20 amp laundry circuit. anything less -HACK


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## danickstr (Mar 21, 2010)

Hey Cap'n..i was just following the progress of the thread, if that is OK with you and Mr. Spock.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

manchestersparky said:


> Regardless it needed to be 20 amp. stacked unit or not, still requires a 20 amp laundry circuit. anything less -HACK


What would you do at 4pm when thats the last circuit to rough on a job that's not getting inspected and all you have left is 14/2 ? Call me whatever you'd like.


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## sparks134 (Jan 30, 2009)

SABC in the kitchen is suppost to be 20A, but can put on a 15A recepticle...Enough said!!!:no:


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## 4Runner (Apr 4, 2010)

sparks134 said:


> SABC in the kitchen is suppost to be 20A, but can put on a 15A recepticle...Enough said!!!:no:



What the heck are you talking about? :001_huh:


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## sparks134 (Jan 30, 2009)

SABC= small appliance brach circuit :whistling2:


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## 4Runner (Apr 4, 2010)

sparks134 said:


> SABC= small appliance brach circuit :whistling2:


No, what does it matter that a 15 amp receptacle is allowed on a 20 amp circuit? It's code legal.


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## sparks134 (Jan 30, 2009)

Yes it is OK to do! 


You cant have a 14awg for your SABC.


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