# Should a AFCI trip for this?? Pic included



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Two theories:

1) AFCI's don't actually work.

2) There was no arcing involved, just a loose connection but not enough to draw a substantial enough arc to trip the AFCI.


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## jefft110 (Jul 7, 2010)

How old is the afci?

I don't think the older ones tripped on series arcs, only parallel faults.

The newer combination arc faults are suppose to work on both series and parallel arcs.


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## jarhead0531 (Jun 1, 2010)

AFCI was installed in 2008. Not understanding the series vs parrallel arcs, could you explain? AFCI operation is still black magic to me, thankfully haven't had to deal much with them yet.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

A series arc would be the loose connection in your picture, or a loose wirenut or any other loose connection.

A parallel arc would be something like an over driven staple that has pinched hot and neutral or hot to ground conductors.


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## johnsmithabe (May 3, 2011)

may be the voltage fluctuation problem higher than the breaker's capacity - otherwise, problem of your breaker system.


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## johnsmithabe (May 3, 2011)

1) AFCI's don't actually work.

2) There was no arcing involved, just a loose connection but not enough to draw a substantial enough arc to trip the AFCI.

peter, you are correct.


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## jarhead0531 (Jun 1, 2010)

Peter D said:


> A series arc would be the loose connection in your picture, or a loose wirenut or any other loose connection.
> 
> A parallel arc would be something like an over driven staple that has pinched hot and neutral or hot to ground conductors.


That what I thought he meant, just never heard them referred to as parrallel and series arcs before. Thanks for the clarification.


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## elecpatsfan (Oct 1, 2010)

Arc-fault breakers are the white elephant of the electrical world. Their sole purpose is to make money for the manufacturers and law makers who were bribed into enforcing them. They make the money, customers and E.C.s get the aggravation.......... sounds like a fair deal to me.


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

Why was the kitchen circuit for the fridge affected?

Looks like the installer failed to tighten the ground terminal screw.​


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

HAHAHA, forward this to congress, I want an investigation to why i need to enable big business to rip off my customers.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Shockdoc said:


> HAHAHA, forward this to congress, I want an investigation to why i need to enable big business to rip off my customers.


 Remember they just want to make sure you canot make a profit.


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## jarhead0531 (Jun 1, 2010)

bobelectric said:


> Why was the kitchen circuit for the fridge affected?
> 
> Looks like the installer failed to tighten the ground terminal screw.​


The circuit was in a older home predating any requirement for dedicated branch circuits for the kitchen. The circuit started in the kitchen and went into the adjoining living room area. 

My offered but declined solution was to run a dedicated circuit to the kitchen. So I patched her up and collected my $$$.


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## BCSparkyGirl (Aug 20, 2009)

Thank god our code only says we must put them in sleeping areas.....must suck to ave to put em everywhere.


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## open short (Oct 12, 2010)

first thing is is that outlett rated for aluminum?and also is the arc-fault brkr useable with aluminum wire?as most gfci recps arn't afci may not be either.i think whole issue is the al wire.no matter what,screws don't look like they were properly tightend...


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

I rest my case, AFCIs are corporate revenue generating junk.


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## elecpatsfan (Oct 1, 2010)

open short said:


> first thing is is that outlett rated for aluminum?and also is the arc-fault brkr useable with aluminum wire?as most gfci recps arn't afci may not be either.i think whole issue is the al wire.no matter what,screws don't look like they were properly tightend...




Are you sure that's aluminum wire?


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

AFCI, a glorified GFCI breaker.


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## jarhead0531 (Jun 1, 2010)

open short said:


> first thing is is that outlett rated for aluminum?and also is the arc-fault brkr useable with aluminum wire?as most gfci recps arn't afci may not be either.i think whole issue is the al wire.no matter what,screws don't look like they were properly tightend...



Yes the outlet was rate for AL, as was it replacement. What breaker isn't dual rate for AL/CU?? None I've checked in a LONG time. Comparing a gfi recept to a breaker of any sort doesn't make an sense to me.


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## open short (Oct 12, 2010)

elecpatsfan said:


> Are you sure that's aluminum wire?


could be wrong but don't think so.look at ground wire.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

Isn't that why they outlawed Al wire, too many house fires. 1970 or 72 I think ? The different materials expand and contract differently, under heat, and loosen under the screw.


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## dtelectRICK (Jun 3, 2011)

*Afi/gfi*

AFI and GFI are not remotely thr same. AFI trip because of an arc (arc fault) GFI trip because of a ground fault. Try plugging a saw into an arc fault protected circuit.


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## kalexv12 (Apr 23, 2009)

That's why AL wire should never be wrapped around the terminals to much expansion and contraction, it will work it's way loose. Either install on AL rated outlet with compression plates as means of connection, or a CU rated outlet in which you pigtail copper leads off of the AL wire with purple wirenuts with the deox inside them.


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## ChrisK (Jun 11, 2011)

dronai said:


> Isn't that why they outlawed Al wire, too many house fires. 1970 or 72 I think ? The different materials expand and contract differently, under heat, and loosen under the screw.


Al wire was never outlawed, problem was poorly made up connections and inadequate devices. The devices were updated in the 70s (CO/
ALR) but you still have installers who don't tighten the connections properly. If it is tightened adequately, the connection will not loosen up.


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## LARMGUY (Aug 22, 2010)

kalexv12 said:


> That's why AL wire should never be wrapped around the terminals to much expansion and contraction, it will work it's way loose. Either install on AL rated outlet with compression plates as means of connection, or a CU rated outlet in which you pigtail copper leads off of the AL wire with purple wirenuts with the deox inside them.


Or backstab em!  :no:


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

dtelectRICK said:


> AFI and GFI are not remotely thr same. AFI trip because of an arc (arc fault) GFI trip because of a ground fault. Try plugging a saw into an arc fault protected circuit.


All AFCIs, prior to the introduction of the new GE one, had a ground fault trip circuit that works exactly like a GFCI except the trip point is 30 to 50 mA and not the 5 mA required for a GFCI. In talking with people, including one of the engineers who worked on the designs of AFCIs, I have come to the conclusion that 90 to 95 % of AFCI trips are from the GFP circuit and not the fancy arc detection circuit.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

ChrisK said:


> Al wire was never outlawed, problem was poorly made up connections and inadequate devices. The devices were updated in the 70s (CO/
> ALR) but you still have installers who don't tighten the connections properly. If it is tightened adequately, the connection will not loosen up.


 That's right, it wasn't the product, it was the installer and lack of technology. Al for branch ckts would be suitable in this day and age with the technology that exist . Because of it's prior bad reputation no one is willing to chance it's use or marketing. So Wall street will prevail.


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## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

Your location says cnj does that stand for central N.J.? So far I have only installed afci's on military bases. I am curios if in N.J. why was afci used it certainly was not as original as the aluminum wire.


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## jarhead0531 (Jun 1, 2010)

cabletie said:


> Your location says cnj does that stand for central N.J.? So far I have only installed afci's on military bases. I am curios if in N.J. why was afci used it certainly was not as original as the aluminum wire.



Yep, central NJ. They were installed because of a fire that was caused by the AL wiring in a different room. HO was told they would prevent fires, oooppps.


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## jarhead0531 (Jun 1, 2010)

Finally got on the phone with a Siemens rep, damn can they be bad about getting back to you in a timely manner. It was in fact an older AFCI without the combination trip. I'll be going back to install all combination afci breakers and that should give the HO some peace of mind.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

So the original AFCI breakers were sold under false pretenses and were adopted into code under false pretenses. How much do you think members of the NFPA got paid ?


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

Shockdoc said:


> So the original AFCI breakers were sold under false pretenses and were adopted into code under false pretenses. ...


Yes to both. The original proposals for the AFCI said they had a device that would do what they now say the combination AFCI will do...the only problem is the fact that the original proposals were made 13 years before the combination AFCI was actually available.


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## Greg Sparkovich (Sep 15, 2007)

jarhead0531 said:


> Finally got on the phone with a Siemens rep, damn can they be bad about getting back to you in a timely manner. It was in fact an older AFCI without the combination trip. I'll be going back to install all combination afci breakers and that should give the HO some peace of mind.


This is a classic example of why a combination type is better than a standard AFCI; "hot to hot" or "neutral to neutral" arcs worry me a lot more than a leak between the neutral and ground! 

Combination type breakers will always have the word "combination" on them. They are code now, so I always bring it up to my customer when I see the old ones.

In addition to the heat/expansion/loosening issue, aluminum metal is *soft* and an EC can accidentally weaken the wire by over tightening. I replace as much as the customer will let me, and if there is anything left on the circuit, I put the circuit on a 15 amp AFCI (whether the wire is 15 or 20 amp).
I work in old houses 99% of the time so I run into a lot of K&T and occasional aluminum.

I don't like AFCIs, but I'd rather trouble shoot an AFCI trip than switch to a standard breaker and walk away. Restful nights FTW!


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## Greg Sparkovich (Sep 15, 2007)

jefft110 said:


> How old is the afci?
> 
> I don't think the older ones tripped on series arcs, only parallel faults.
> 
> The newer combination arc faults are suppose to work on both series and parallel arcs.


I want to point out that this was the correct issue in terms of the original post and the problem. The old AFCI didn't trip because it wasn't designed to; and the conditions that could very possibly have caused a fire could have been averted by a combination-type AFCI. AT LEAST THEORETICALLY: and that, to me, is the interesting question ...has anyone found a similar situation with a combination AFCI...?

We are often ready to blame AFCIs and the industry/politics/money (and I agree there is PLENTY OF BLAME FOR THOSE MFers).
However, I think we all need to be aware that the first response for a lot of us on this thread was "AFCIs don't work" -and that may not be the case.




PS:
The AFCI lobby is going to send me a free toaster oven for this response.
So thank you.


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## frank (Feb 6, 2007)

Familiar problem. But always a mystery to me that the neutral is the far more often weaker point rather than the live (hot). Air space connections and or faulty moulded outlet terminations cause this to occurr. The heat generated can be quite high and more than not no arcing results. The terminal just fails.

Frank


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