# Upgrading to 200 AMP from a dumpster fire



## BGomolka (Dec 24, 2013)

I am helping my father with a total remodel of a house he bought to sell. I am an electrician in denver, usually working on commercial or industrial - new construction projects. This is what I ran into today - 


































The Center box is the main panel fed from the meter, is an old Zinsko panel, with only a few slots, so they decided they needed more space and added a new panel to the left of that one and just double tapped the main lugs of the main. To the right side is just a 30 amp fusible disconnect for the dryer, since they had no space on either of the other panels, that is also tapped on the main lugs of the zinsko panel. 

The old service entrance conductor is sealed into the block wall headed to the meter. This is all in the garage so im assuming that I will need to have the new service entrance conductor in conduit. 

I am installing a 200 amp Siemens panel, and I could use some advice in the best way to go about this, Should I just place the panel in the center and install a 12x12 above the box for the circuits that will not reach the breakers? 

Also I was wondering if its OK practice in residential to install the meter and the panel back to back with a sleeve between the wall connecting the two. If that the case, where should I locate the new 200 amp panel to ensure that the wires come through in the right location in the back of the load center.

Could use any advice I could get here, this type work is a bit out of my element.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

Some things will depend upon your location, where is the home?

Drop a call to the AHJ to double check anything though.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Yes, it's fine to put the new meter back to back with the panel. 

You have a relatively easy and straight forward service upgrade. Rip all that crap off the wall, drill thru for the 2" pipe you connect the meter to the panel with (I use PVC so that I don't have to bond it). Then put a nice clean piece of plywood on the wall and mount the panel to it.

No need for any exterior box, definitely not a 12X12. Just run all the cables into the new panel, extend the wires that won't reach with wire nuts. You may run into one or two cables that won't reach just put them in a box up in the ceiling and run tails down to the panel.

2" PVC pipe for the riser, 4/0 aluminum X2 for the hots, 2/0 aluminum for the neutral. #6 copper to the ground rods, #2 aluminum to the water pipe and jump the meter. Use a piece of the scrap #2 to jump the water heater. Put an intersystem bonding bloc on one of those GECs I just mentioned.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

All of the wiring here would have to go into conduit or have be framed in and covered. A disconnect would need to be installed on the exterior of the house with with the meter or adjacent to it.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Jrzy boy is dead on. I might LB out the bottom of the panel and then bottom feed the new panel. For some reason all we use for grounding around here is copper. Might have to rethink that. I also would go with PVC but mainly because it is cheaper. 

Around here that service would go for around $1200-$1500.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Switched said:


> All of the wiring here would have to go into conduit or have be framed in and covered. A disconnect would need to be installed on the exterior of the house with with the meter or adjacent to it.


My above post is based on the NEC, which my states follows pretty closesly when it comes to services. I should have put a disclaimer in about local amendments.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

That meter socket does not look 200 amp.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

sbrn33 said:


> Jrzy boy is dead on. I might LB out the bottom of the panel and then bottom feed the new panel. For some reason all we use for grounding around here is copper. Might have to rethink that.


 Copper costs like 3 times as much. If you have a long run across the house to the waterpipe, it could make a decent difference.


> Around here that service would go for around $1200-$1500.


Stop trolling.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

sbrn33 said:


> That meter socket does not look 200 amp.


Definitely not. I thought he was upgrading it. If not, he will have to now.

Where is the feed for that meter?? :blink:


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Honestly it would go for $1,200-$1,500. If I were to quote that service I would be around $1,900 without a 2 inch mast which it doesn't look like it needs since it is a gable.
I would lose it by $500.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

Every area has slight differences though... Even here, the extent they would make us upgrade some of the non-compliant stuff is up to each inspector. Some would just let us replace the panel, some would make us jump through hoops.

No Rehab code in effect.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Switched said:


> Every area has slight differences though... Even here, the extent they would make us upgrade some of the non-compliant stuff is up to each inspector. Some would just let us replace the panel, some would make us jump through hoops.
> 
> No Rehab code in effect.


How do you bid things then?


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

sbrn33 said:


> How do you bid things then?


Worst case scenario and just do it to the stricter standards.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I rarely use the rehab code for anything.

In this situation, either I would just replace the panel with the same size panel and also bring the grounding up to code (not necessary with the rehab code, but I do it anyway and charge them) OR I upgrade the entire service.

Here's an example of a panel only upgrade: http://www.electriciantalk.com/f29/so-what-did-you-do-today-159178/index3/#post2823034


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

We rarely run into anything quite like that though, 90% of all residential stuff is already on the exterior. The only time it isn't is on some of the older buildings in cities like San Francisco, where they actually have basements. Most all of the other houses are just a raised foundation, with all of the new ones almost always being slab on grade.


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## BGomolka (Dec 24, 2013)

Switched said:


> Some things will depend upon your location, where is the home?
> 
> Drop a call to the AHJ to double check anything though.


Its in SE Pennsylvania, Broomall.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

BGomolka said:


> Its in SE Pennsylvania, Broomall.


A number of guys I that area on here, but you should be good to go on the others suggestions.


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## BGomolka (Dec 24, 2013)

Jrzy said:


> Definitely not. I thought he was upgrading it. If not, he will have to now.
> 
> Where is the feed for that meter?? :blink:


Meter housing is being replaced with a 200 amp,

a friend of ours is doing the new service drop from the overhead weatherhead.


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## BGomolka (Dec 24, 2013)

I was also wondering about installing AFCI breakers for the house, I was hoping I wouldnt have to as 210.12 (b) only requires it if I add 6ft to the branch circuit.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

The first thing I'd do is find out if -- this being an older home -- probably closer to town center -- whether the Poco and the locals have decided that all upgrades have to consist of UNDERGROUND Service Laterals.

This is absolutely the case in San Jose...

Even when all the neighbors have Service Drops all heavy ups and new Services HAVE to be trenched. This upgrade was made mandatory due to politics... and rising land values. 

{ Typical San Jose tract home of 1964 cost $49,000 -- today's market value ~ $1,800,000+ ... easy ! }

NEXT

If a Service Riser connection is still do-able -- will the Poco accept the old location at this time ?

Yes, you can't even count on them draping their Service Drop the same way.

{ Things change... especially when you're talking half-a-century. }

Once the Big Decisions are made -- the rest is straight forward.

See if you can buddy-up with a fella that has local residential heavy-up experience.

An energetic retiree would seem to be an ideal candidate. :thumbsup:


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