# Ground Screw Do Not Need to Be Green?



## 480sparky

Most are green just because the manufacturers make 'em that way. But they could make them pink, purple, orange, yellow, blue, or even (gasp!) gray.


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## Frasbee

480sparky said:


> Most are green just because the manufacturers make 'em that way. But they could make them pink, purple, orange, yellow, blue, or even (gasp!) gray.


I think what frustrates me the most is how much false, or half-true information I absorbed the past 3 years.


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## davis9

There are a few inspectors around here that would cause you to believe they need to be green....

Tom


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## 480sparky

davis9 said:


> There are a few inspectors around here that would cause you to believe they need to be green....
> 
> Tom



Simply ask for a Code reference. :thumbsup:


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## Bob Badger

Sometimes people will claim 250.126 requires box grounding screws to be green but this section only applies to devices.




> *250.126 Identification of Wiring Device Terminals.*
> The terminal for the connection of the equipment grounding
> conductor shall be identified by one of the following:
> 
> (1) A green, not readily removable terminal screw with a
> hexagonal head.
> 
> (2) green, hexagonal, not readily removable terminal nut.
> 
> (3) A green pressure wire connector. If the terminal for
> the grounding conductor is not visible, the conductor
> entrance hole shall be marked with the word green or
> ground, the letters G or GR, a grounding symbol, or
> otherwise identified by a distinctive green color. If
> the terminal for the equipment grounding conductor
> is readily removable, the area adjacent to the terminal
> shall be similarly marked.


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## Frasbee

Bob Badger said:


> Sometimes people will claim 250.126 requires box grounding screws to be green but this section only applies to devices.


This is the information I need to know, not only the correct information, but the incorrect information someone might try to argue with.


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## davis9

480sparky said:


> Simply ask for a Code reference. :thumbsup:



I agree, I usually mess around a bit(with inspectors) if I'm feeling frisky. I actually enjoy inspectors that are knowledgeable, they usually will listen to reason. Not in turn believe what they believe cause that's what someone told them at an inspectors meeting.

Most times round here for me if I ask for a reference it's already out of hand...

Tom:thumbup:


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## jwjrw

Frasbee said:


> This is the information I need to know, not only the correct information, but the incorrect information someone might try to argue with.



The more code cycles you go thru the more confusing it can get. You learn something and then they go and change it.


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## Frasbee

Good thing the 2011 is coming out soon, because I've not even put a dent in my 2008.

I highlight things as I learn them. I'll cross reference them when I get the 2011.


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## Widestance_Politics

Frasbee said:


> I asked the electrician about that today and he said they do not have to be green, but they do have to be machine screws (no self tappers).


Take a look at 250.8(6).....self tappers are fine in the 2008 Code....


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## jwjrw

Widestance_Politics said:


> Take a look at 250.8(6).....self tappers are fine in the 2008 Code....


No they are not. Self tapping MACHINE SCREWS are ok. Not a #12 self tapper


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## Frasbee

jwjrw said:


> No they are not. Self tapping MACHINE SCREWS are ok. Not a #12 self tapper


Yeah, the guy I worked with basically said, machine screws are fine, _no_ coarse thread screws.


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## Widestance_Politics

jwjrw said:


> No they are not. Self tapping MACHINE SCREWS are ok. Not a #12 self tapper


Thread-forming machine screws is how it is stated....hence self-tapping....


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## robnj772

Frasbee said:


> I think what frustrates me the most is how much false, or half-true information I absorbed the past 3 years.


 
I was very surprised and humbled when I first started studying for my license and realized that half the stuff I was taught/told wasn't exactly correct.


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## Frasbee

Widestance_Politics said:


> Thread-forming machine screws is how it is stated....hence self-tapping....


I believe that might be skirting the line, because it specifies no less than 2 threads to be engaged. Depending upon the thickness of the material you're securing to, coarse thread may not be enough.

Just something to consider.


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## Widestance_Politics

Frasbee said:


> I believe that might be skirting the line, because it specifies no less than 2 threads to be engaged. Depending upon the thickness of the material you're securing to, coarse thread may not be enough.
> 
> Just something to consider.


I think we are on the same page....just pointing out that a self tapping maching screw is fine...you don't HAVE to drill and use a nut, or pre-tap...


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## jwjrw

Widestance_Politics said:


> Thread-forming machine screws is how it is stated....hence self-tapping....



Everyone calls a course thread a self tapper. You left the machine screw part out. Just making sure no one got confused thats all.


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## jwjrw

Frasbee said:


> I believe that might be skirting the line, because it specifies no less than 2 threads to be engaged. Depending upon the thickness of the material you're securing to, coarse thread may not be enough.
> 
> Just something to consider.


What I call a course thread is not legal. Self tapper machine thread ok.


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## Frasbee

Widestance_Politics said:


> I think we are on the same page....just pointing out that a self tapping maching screw is fine...you don't HAVE to drill and use a nut, or pre-tap...


In other words...if you're in a tight spot, and you _have_ to hack, you can. :thumbup:

I still prefer my green ground screws if I can help it, though. :shifty:


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## Frasbee

jwjrw said:


> What I call a course thread is not legal. Self tapper machine thread ok.


That _is_ still a question in my mind.

I wish they would define "machine screw". Though typically it's labeled right on the box.

I think most people here _have_ seen button heads used as grounds.


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## jwjrw

Frasbee said:


> That _is_ still a question in my mind.
> 
> I wish they would define "machine screw". Though typically it's labeled right on the box.
> 
> I think most people here _have_ seen button heads used as grounds.


Machine threads can be fine or course but they still look like machine threads.
The self tappers that are a violation have a gap between threads. Like a #12 teck screw.


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## HARRY304E

Frasbee said:


> In other words...if you're in a tight spot, and you _have_ to hack, you can. :thumbup:
> 
> I still prefer my green ground screws if I can help it, though. :shifty:


 read 250.8 and the commontery and the Exibits in the 2008 NEC HANDBOOK
""Grounding screws (not required to be listed)Exhibit 250.2


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## Jlarson

I think the whole machine Vs. self tapping/drilling thing is stupid IMO.


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## Bob Badger

> *250.8 Connection of Grounding and Bonding
> Equipment.
> 
> (A) Permitted Methods. *Grounding conductors and bonding
> jumpers shall be connected by one of the following
> means:
> 
> (1) Listed pressure connectors
> 
> (2) Terminal bars
> 
> (3) Pressure connectors listed as grounding and bonding
> equipment
> 
> (4) Exothermic welding process
> 
> (5) Machine screw-type fasteners that engage not less than
> two threads or are secured with a nut
> 
> (6) Thread-forming machine screws that engage not less
> than two threads in the enclosure
> 
> (7) Connections that are part of a listed assembly
> 
> (8) Other listed means





> Machine screws
> 
> ASME standards specify a variety of "Machine Screws"[8] in diameters ranging up to 0.75 in. These fasteners are often used with nuts and they are often driven into tapped holes. They might be considered a screw or a bolt based on the Machinery's Handbook distinction. In practice, they tend to be mostly available in smaller sizes and the smaller sizes are referred to as screws or less ambiguously as machine screws, although some kinds of machine screws can be referred to as stove bolts.


I believe 'machine screws' will also be threaded all the way unlike cap screws that have shanks.


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## McClary’s Electrical

Jlarson said:


> I think the whole machine Vs. self tapping/drilling thing is stupid IMO.


 

I agree, there's no need to debate the names. The nember of threads engeged is all that matters


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## Magnettica

I failed an rusty old main disconnect change out for using a tech screw to bond the GEC to the enclosure.


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## Ima Fabricator

*Momma*

It doesn't take much. I'm sure we all remember our mom's telling us that your grounding system is only as good as it's weakest link. At the time I never listened to all those stupid sayings. Now, I realized she was very wise. 

I remember a service call once I got that about half the house was out. Starting looking at usual stuff. As it turns out the little screw that bonded the 2 ground bars together rusted from years of moisture. The couple screw threads finally rusted up and they lost all the neutrals on that bar. 

That was crazy


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## McClary’s Electrical

Magnettica said:


> I failed an rusty old main disconnect change out for using a tech screw to bond the GEC to the enclosure.


 


well, duh


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