# stumped(again)



## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

ok, i know its the weekend , but put on your thinking(&drinking caps) heres the story as short as i can make it and get all the details in. WAKE UP! i wired a bathroom in a remodel and upon installing the vanity lights i had to cut the wire shorter. boom, arched. the wire is not connected on the hot end at the switch. get the metre out and there is 97v onthe wire at the light to gr. there is 3v on the wire with nothing else attached. so i assume that a screw went through a wire. continuity test tells me i have everything in place, no short between anything! disconnect the fan light(which is one of those combo night light, fan, light, blue tooth) and the voltage goes away. again check everything with continuity. no cross-over. one i forgot, i disconnected the f/l from the nuetral and it was still running. disco the ground wire and it stops. again, there is NO continuity between ANY of these wires. WTF am i missing?:blink:


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

You are missing paragraphs.


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

sorry, not in the mood for perfect punctuation. at least most of my spellin is good?:laughing:


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

Weekend guess:

Somewhere the white wire is connected to black to be used as a switch leg

Somewhere the neutral and ground are connected or touching, you're getting voltage through the EGC.

Also probably reading ghost voltage with your meter. Check with a load or use a Wiggy.


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

A Little Short said:


> Weekend guess:
> 
> Somewhere the white wire is connected to black to be used as a switch leg
> 
> ...


1 and 2 would show on continuity, 3 would not show when all wires diconnected


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

papaotis said:


> 1 and 2 would show on continuity, 3 would not show when all wires diconnected


You can still read phantom/ghost voltage even with wires disconnected.

The neutral for the vanity lights is being used by another load.
When you cut the wires you shorted them because of the neutral load from other load or circuit.


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

i respect that but there is no other circuit and the 'hot' to the light wasnt connected to anything


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

papaotis said:


> i respect that but there is no other circuit and the 'hot' to the light wasnt connected to anything


The "hot" was the neutral if another load was on it. It doesn't have to be a different circuit. 
Did you trace the neutral to see? 
Did you check for voltage between neutral and ground?


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

yep. every possible connection. thats why i dont get it. i separated al l the wires one at a time . the only way to get 0 on everything was to have EVERYTHING discod. but theres no CONTINUITY anywhere except where it should be!


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Papaotis .,,


Was the vanity light was hooked up to the fan unit ? ( on the fan main light to the vanity )

the only time I ever see that before quite few years back if you only have XX-3 NM cables and someone used the bare or egc conductor as netural and white netural was repurposed for something else. 

or possiblity one of the cables been crisscrossed somewhere.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Did you tie into homeowner wiring somewhere? Homeowner wiring is a game changer.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I have had issues with 3 different fluke meters/testers and continuity testing. They didn't read continuity thru wires that were definitely connected, I assume it was due to the length of the wires, but they weren't that long. 

So I kinda gave up on continuity testing a while back and use 120V and a Wiggy instead.


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## Essex (Feb 4, 2015)

Do you have access to a megger?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Essex said:


> Do you have access to a megger?


Yeah cause that's smart. Megger wires that you are unsure if they are connected to other wiring and possible expensive equipment.


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## Essex (Feb 4, 2015)

HackWork said:


> Yeah cause that's smart. Megger wires that you are unsure if they are connected to other wiring and possible expensive equipment.




Have you ever heard of ramp testing?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Essex said:


> Have you ever heard of ramp testing?


Since you're not an electrician, can you please stay out of the technical threads and stop crapping them? Thanks.


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## Essex (Feb 4, 2015)

HackWork said:


> Since you're not an electrician, can you please stay out of the technical threads and stop crapping them? Thanks.



Poorly sidestepped. You don't know do you? Hahahaha!


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## Essex (Feb 4, 2015)

Op - if you can get a megger then carry out an insulation resistance test across live - earth on the lowest setting. If you get a nil result then there is a load connected somewhere. Locate the load and disconnect if required. 

Carry out a insulation resistance test at 500v and see what the results are. 

Another test would be to test the continuity of the complete live and earth return path. With the circuit isolated connect the live and earth together at the furthest part of the circuit. At the board take a continuity reading across live and earth. Do the same with the live a neutral and then see if the results are the same.


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

cant get a megger. rereading my op i mistated one thing. the 97v was from hot to the light wire that wasnt connected at either end. had to be shorted to neutral or gr, right? but still no continuity:001_huh:


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

99cents said:


> Did you tie into homeowner wiring somewhere? Homeowner wiring is a game changer.


nope, all wiring done by me and i know where they go.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

think ya got an issue with yer fancy fan wiring?


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Kill power to the entire zone.

Use a toner and wand.

Start with the hots.

Then tone out the neutral.

If the neutral somehow got connected to the grounding system, it'll show up if you lift the neutral at the panel rail. ( As the neutral will still show continuity to ground. )

&&&&

Your philosophy and mine are plainly miles apart, as you are more than willing to work around hot conductors.

Due to the existence of MWBC, I just won't do that.

I don't trust that the HO left the original build untouched. 

I don't trust that the HO hasn't brought in a handyman.

I don't trust that the HO hasn't damaged the wiring some crazy way -- like with a sawzall. ( It's happened. When it does, it is DENIED. No-one fesses up. )

I don't trust that imported %$#@ from Red China is not defective. 

I've seen apprentices waste 4-hours ( against my explicit instructions ) messing around with a factory-error in a master-slave lighting assembly. The cross-up was inside the electronic components.

The beauty about a toner and wand is that they are CHEAP. They can proof out a circuit without collateral damage, no smoke problems.

Once you KNOW that your circuits are sweet, then it's easy to pin down factory defective fan-lighting assemblies.

A test load is always nice to have. 

*I use a plug tester jacked into a female cord-cap whip that I can wire in as a dummy load. *
*
How cheap can you get ?* :thumbsup:


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

once again i say 'i' did all this wiring, i know where it goes ,i know what is connected and not connected at any point. i am not new to this game! i have solved many, many problems of this type (some with your help:thumbsup this one makes no sense whatsoever. and yes i know electrical theory is that! but this is beyond theory. tell me what im missing damit!


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

papaotis said:


> once again i say 'i' did all this wiring, i know where it goes ,i know what is connected and not connected at any point. i am not new to this game! i have solved many, many problems of this type (some with your help:thumbsup this one makes no sense whatsoever. and yes i know electrical theory is that! but this is beyond theory. tell me what im missing damit!



Your cutters were carrying a big stored charge and you cut into the ground wire and gave the electrons a path to the center of the earth. Right Essex?


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Ok that was fun. Now----- Go look at your afci breaker and see if the neutral of your circuit is plugged into the hot lug on the afci and the ungrounded hot wire of your circuit is plugged into the white hole of the afci breaker. You reversed polarity of the whole branch circuit.


It's just one more stupid thing about afci's - not thought out well at all.


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

macmikeman said:


> Ok that was fun. Now----- Go look at your afci breaker and see if the neutral of your circuit is plugged into the hot lug on the afci and the ungrounded hot wire of your circuit is plugged into the white hole of the afci breaker. You reversed polarity of the whole branch circuit.
> 
> 
> It's just one more stupid thing about afci's - not thought out well at all.


you gave me a glimmer of hope there, mike, but so wasnt the case! i did that right!:thumbsup:


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

papaotis said:


> once again i say 'i' did all this wiring, i know where it goes ,i know what is connected and not connected at any point. i am not new to this game! i have solved many, many problems of this type (some with your help:thumbsup this one makes no sense whatsoever. and yes i know electrical theory is that! but this is beyond theory. tell me what im missing damit!


Ok, you said you did all the wiring. Now help me (us) out by answering these questions>

Is the vanity the only thing on that circuit?

If not, what else is on it?

Is it a MWBC?

By all the wiring, do you mean the whole bathroom or just the vanity and exhaust fan?

Did you run the homerun for the circuit?

If not, where did you tie in, and what is on the circuit that you tied into?

Do you like tater tots?


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

yeah tater tots!:thumbsup: yes i did all the wiring, it is not mwbc because that is no longer aloowed, it is a home run with only lights on it. probly going to pull new wire to light, but then there is still a mystery connection somewhere in the wall.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Aliens


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Majewski said:


> Aliens


As I suspected all along. :laughing:


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## Kyrton (Feb 2, 2016)

All in all, I am going to think there is a short from the motor leads to ground or wiring harness. As you said, the voltage goes to 0 when the ground and neutral are disconnected. 
Did you test your voltage with a known ground from another circuit? 
Did you test continuity between the switch box and exhaust fan ?


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## 3DDesign (Oct 25, 2014)

For the fan/light/night light, how did you run the conductors? 
You needed three switches and a neutral. 

14/4 three switches and a neutral 
14/2 + 14/2 and use a white for a switch
14/3 + 14/2 and not use one white wire

It seems to me the problem may be in the fan/light/night light wiring.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

When a de-bug has reached the nightmare level, eliminate all loads... un-join them.

Use a dummy load... the plug tester in a female cord whip. 

And see if your circuits are sweet.

The common, ultra-cheap, plug tester is going to entirely give away a faulty circuit's status.

Every time.

This gambit is admittedly tedious, but crushes all wiring flaws. ( well, almost all ) :yes:

The odds overwhelmingly favor a cluster inside the fan-light assembly.

Many come with complex switching alternatives -- and LOTS of leads.

If from Red China, their documentation will leave everything to be desired.


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## 3DDesign (Oct 25, 2014)

My prediction is that one or more of the loads in the fan/light/nightlight is in series with the vanity light. The 97 volts is caused by the voltage drop from the load.


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

havent been back there yet. probly tomorrow. but once again i state the fan light is a blue tooth set, a hot and a neutral, not three or four wires. well a ground too. could it be the electronics in the blue tooth are boogered?


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## Drsparky14 (Oct 22, 2016)

The 3 volts are ghost voltage from the conductors being in the same sheath as another wire with current flowing. 

Now the 97volts: 
You may have no got hooked up to the vanity light but it sounds like they are sharing a neutral. But the neutral has a broken connection back to the source. So when you check between the neutral and ground you are getting the voltage reading of a neutral. 

120volts of power at 100watts goes through a light bulb, light is created, and heat comes off of the light. The light and the heat are energy being dissipated. The remaining power feeds back down the neutral. The voltage in the neutral is the amount the light bulb didn't dissipate. This is why 120v items are not efficient. 

240 volt items take only the power they need and don't send any back to ground. Therefore being much much more efficient. 

The 97 volts is most likely reading the light the bulbs in the fixture. When you read between the hot and the wire from the fixture you have to remember if the neutral is connected to the lights it's going to give you a resistive path to ground. 


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## Drsparky14 (Oct 22, 2016)

papaotis said:


> havent been back there yet. probly tomorrow. but once again i state the fan light is a blue tooth set, a hot and a neutral, not three or four wires. well a ground too. could it be the electronics in the blue tooth are boogered?




Does the fan have constant power then? I.e. Not switched? 

If so the power to the switching circuitry in the fan whether the light or fan are actually running or not is drawing power. Therefore dumping excess down the neutral. 

Your tester at the light will read power between the hot and the neutral sometimes or between the hot and the light pigtail.

I think you have a neutral wirenut loose somewhere. Check all your connections and make sure they are solid. 



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## Drsparky14 (Oct 22, 2016)

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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

If you haven't been back there, how do you know my reversed polarity isn't the case? I still bet it is.


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

macmikeman said:


> If you haven't been back there, how do you know my reversed polarity isn't the case? I still bet it is.


i wsa back there the same day you posted that, and only for that reason. that wasnt the case. today i ran a new wire from the switch to light and all is well except that im still not SURE what the problem was. i want to write it off as MFG problem in the wire(which i have had before) but i dont like that excuse and the home owner wont let me tear the wall open to PROVE what the problem is!


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## Drsparky14 (Oct 22, 2016)

papaotis said:


> i wsa back there the same day you posted that, and only for that reason. that wasnt the case. today i ran a new wire from the switch to light and all is well except that im still not SURE what the problem was. i want to write it off as MFG problem in the wire(which i have had before) but i dont like that excuse and the home owner wont let me tear the wall open to PROVE what the problem is!




Probably a severed neutral 


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## B-Nabs (Jun 4, 2014)

Drsparky14 said:


> The 3 volts are ghost voltage from the conductors being in the same sheath as another wire with current flowing.
> 
> Now the 97volts:
> You may have no got hooked up to the vanity light but it sounds like they are sharing a neutral. But the neutral has a broken connection back to the source. So when you check between the neutral and ground you are getting the voltage reading of a neutral.
> ...


:blink::no::laughing:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Drsparky14 said:


> The 3 volts are ghost voltage from the conductors being in the same sheath as another wire with current flowing.
> 
> Now the 97volts:
> You may have no got hooked up to the vanity light but it sounds like they are sharing a neutral. But the neutral has a broken connection back to the source. So when you check between the neutral and ground you are getting the voltage reading of a neutral.
> ...


OMG this is like my birthday.

Me and you are going to be such great friends.


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## Drsparky14 (Oct 22, 2016)

HackWork said:


> OMG this is like my birthday.
> 
> 
> 
> Me and you are going to be such great friends.




Happy birthday 


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Drsparky14 said:


> Happy birthday
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Can you tell us more about the difference in efficiency between 120V and 240V due to the power being used by a 120V load being lost down the neutral?

And even more important, how much efficiency do we gain if we pipe the wiring in and use a larger size pipe?


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

depends on the size of the wire :jester:


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

HackWork said:


> Can you tell us more about the difference in efficiency between 120V and 240V due to the power being used by a 120V load being lost down the neutral?
> 
> And even more important, how much efficiency do we gain if we pipe the wiring in and use a larger size pipe?


You are arguing with an authority: *Dr* Sparky. 

Now show some respect.


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