# NM subject to physical damage



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

It should of been sleeved in 1/2" PVC.. not secured and subject to damage if drawers are moved at a later date..


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Nope, based on what I can see.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Nope, based on what I can see.


What about if current tenant moves out.. then is the NM in violation?


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> What about if current tenant moves out.. then is the NM in violation?


:blink::blink:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Why not just cite the lack of securing at the box?


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

I would say that as long as the drawers can't come into contact with the cable that it would not be subject to physical damage.

That being said, is the cable supported and secured as required? Can't really tell in the pics.

Pete


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

BBQ said:


> Why not just cite the lack of securing at the box?


Now I see the box (guess I didn't look close enough at first).... that cable needs to be secured and supported.

Pete


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

It needs to be supported but I have done this often. What is going to hurt it if it is behind the drawer and stapled?


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> It needs to be supported but I have done this often....


 Agreed. This was SOP for doing receptacles on counter islands and peninsulas when I did houses.

-John


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## Bulldog1 (Oct 21, 2011)

We always sleeve it with car flex. I don't see it being subject to damage without the flex but we do it anyway. I agree with the others the wire needs support.


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

BBQ said:


> Why not just cite the lack of securing at the box?





BBQ said:


> Nope, based on what I can see.





Dennis Alwon said:


> It needs to be supported but I have done this often. What is going to hurt it if it is behind the drawer and stapled?


The concern that I have with loose unsupported NM cable located behind drawers is that if objects fall behind the drawers then when the drawer is closed it could damage the cable.

Now if the cable was secured and supported so that the cable was located in the corner of the cabinet I would be OK without additional protection.

I wrote up the issue as needing securing and supporting or the cable needed to be installed in a raceway for protection.

Chris


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Bulldog1 said:


> We always sleeve it with car flex. I don't see it being subject to damage without the flex but we do it anyway. I agree with the others the wire needs support.


Carflex is not an approved method of protection-- believe it or not. Art.334.15(B)-- I use it under a kitchen sink or in a cabinet without drawers. Now the other approved means are what??? Heck wiremold isn't mentioned and I have sleeved nm in that.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

raider1 said:


> I wrote up the issue as needing securing and supporting or the cable needed to be installed in a raceway for protection.
> 
> Chris


This is totally fair. It does need securing as it can move around and get hit- no doubt.


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## Bulldog1 (Oct 21, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Carflex is not an approved method of protection-- believe it or not. Art.334.15(B)-- I use it under a kitchen sink or in a cabinet without drawers. Now the other approved means are what??? Heck wiremold isn't mentioned and I have sleeved nm in that.



I did not know that. I have had inspectors require it. I guess they didn't know either....:laughing:


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

I usually slip greenfield over it and strap it tight


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## jw0445 (Oct 9, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> It needs to be supported but I have done this often. What is going to hurt it if it is behind the drawer and stapled?


I use wire ties with a screw eyelet. Wouldn't want to bang some staples in the cabinets they make today.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

jw0445 said:


> I use wire ties with a screw eyelet. Wouldn't want to bang some staples in the cabinets they make today.


 I use small straps with 1/2" screws. You need to check where you put that screw as some cheap cabinets have thin material.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Bulldog1 said:


> I did not know that. I have had inspectors require it. I guess they didn't know either....:laughing:


 I do it all the time and IMO it is perfectly okay in those situations. Many inspectors allow just the nm under a sink to disposals. I sleeve mine in carflex.


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## Bulldog1 (Oct 21, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I use small straps with 1/2" screws. You need to check where you put that screw as some cheap cabinets have thin material.


When I was a young apprentice I mounted a 4 square to the back wall of an island. It was a high end kitchen remodel. I used 3/4" screws.....:whistling2:

The cabinet guys had to replace the panel.... I always use 1/2" screws now. :thumbsup:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BBQ said:


> :blink::blink:


I have seen that kind of installation get violated where is wasn't protected on the vertical run down the wall..

It is one of those gray areas that is left up to interpretation of the code by the inspector having to sign his name..

Sleeving the NM in PVC is not a whole lot to ask.. IMO


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## niteshift (Nov 21, 2007)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I use small straps with 1/2" screws. You need to check where you put that screw as some cheap cabinets have thin material.


I agree with this, did it same way.


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

I have used those sticky pads and zip ties and never had an issue.


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## muck (Jun 30, 2008)

The NM is not protected under the draw in the lower cabinet. What's to keep the pot and pans, etc. from banging against it?


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

I have put them in the corner and used hot glue to secure it. I tried the hot glue on scrap cable, then cut it open to check for damage. It was fine. I also use hot glue to secure nm a long log beams next to the ceiling. There isn't enough room to get a staple in that space, but the glue works.


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## sarness (Sep 14, 2010)

The great conduit shortage of 11


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## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

I love the fire extinguisher right there "just in case"


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## kbatku (Oct 18, 2011)

Where is the S80 conduit stubbed up 6" from the floor???

Does anybody, I mean ANYBODY, actually do that??


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

It my most recent island receptacle installation similiar to what as been described, where the wire is behind a draw, cut two pieces of 1/2 plywood any width and length needed. Use hot glue and adhere to the back of inside cabinet. Put the NM cable between it and cover the 1/2-5/8" opening with long nail plates that plumbers sometimes use. Cheap and easy to do.

Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


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## GEORGE D (Apr 2, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I use small straps with 1/2" screws. You need to check where you put that screw as some cheap cabinets have thin material.


Is using metal 3/8" straps ok to support nm? I had an inspector fail me for that years ago.


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

If that NM Cable is completely behind a bank of drawers then secure it with straps.
If there is a cabinet under that drawer and the NM Cable runs up the back of it, Then it needs protection


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

GEORGE D said:


> Is using metal 3/8" straps ok to support nm? I had an inspector fail me for that years ago.


Why not you use metal staples.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

B4T said:


> It should of been sleeved in 1/2" PVC.. not secured and subject to damage if drawers are moved at a later date..





B4T said:


> I have seen that kind of installation get violated where is wasn't protected on the vertical run down the wall..
> 
> It is one of those gray areas that is left up to interpretation of the code by the inspector having to sign his name..
> 
> Sleeving the NM in PVC is not a whole lot to ask.. IMO


Agreed but only if it's schedule 80.

If I was inspecting the job in the original post I'd look _very closely_ at the rest of the job.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

electricmanscott said:


> Agreed but only if it's schedule 80.


I had a hard enough time finding anyone else who would want some type of conduit and you go and spec schedule 80.. 

There are no cars driving through the area.. :laughing:


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## Jim Port (Oct 1, 2007)

I just use a piece of Panduit clamshell with a sticky tape backing.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

I live in Hawaii. There we have an advanced civilization because we are allowed locally to protect romex using wood molding made to cover over romex cables. One of these days I am going to energize and go take a snap shot of some examples of this wonderful product for you to look in wonderment at. Of course it takes a bit of learning, not much, to properly install it so that you don't manage to drive brad nails into the wire inside or to make it look really nice. This post is likely to drive a UL labs proponent to have a massive corinary since it has no listing, but is readily available in all the supply houses, the hardware stores, and the Home Depots and Lowe's. By the way, I've removed miles of it from dwelling exteriors where it is rained on and inside its as dry as inside the dwelling interiors , and there isn't any mold or other weathering effects on the cable or the cable sheath.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

I have been on projects where wood crown molding was used to conceal all the wiring we ran some it (GASP) fire alarm low energy cable. Of course the weather was not as nice but it still seemed to work. :jester:


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

Bulldog1 said:


> When I was a young apprentice I mounted a 4 square to the back wall of an island. It was a high end kitchen remodel. I used 3/4" screws.....:whistling2:


I call those "toddler deterrents."


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## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

Years ago I did a 200 unit townhome complex and I dropped 1/2 emt to the basement from the outlet. It really did not take that much extra time as long as you did it after the cabinets were installed and before the countertops were in. Otherwise I use bx for anything like this.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

B4T said:


> I had a hard enough time finding anyone else who would want some type of conduit and you go and spec schedule 80..
> 
> There are no cars driving through the area.. :laughing:


Not my spec, NEC's spec. :thumbsup:


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

cabletie said:


> Years ago I did a 200 unit townhome complex and I dropped 1/2 emt to the basement from the outlet. It really did not take that much extra time as long as you did it after the cabinets were installed and before the countertops were in. Otherwise I use bx for anything like this.


One could argue that ac (bx) is no good either. Article 320.12 disallows AC cable where subject to physical damage. Ever see what happens to AC cable when it gets hit enough times with the cast iron frying pan being shoved into the cabinet? :whistling2:


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## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

> One could argue that ac (bx) is no good either. Article 320.12 disallows AC cable where subject to physical damage.


Yes, but I have never failed for it weather it was in a house or an office building. Not getting a red sticker does not make it right, but seeing romex in a cabinet just looks wrong to me.
Under cabinet lights would be a different story.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

macmikeman said:


> I live in Hawaii. There we have an advanced civilization because we are allowed locally to protect romex using wood molding made to cover over romex cables. One of these days I am going to energize and go take a snap shot of some examples of this wonderful product for you to look in wonderment at. Of course it takes a bit of learning, not much, to properly install it so that you don't manage to drive brad nails into the wire inside or to make it look really nice. This post is likely to drive a UL labs proponent to have a massive corinary since it has no listing, but is readily available in all the supply houses, the hardware stores, and the Home Depots and Lowe's. By the way, I've removed miles of it from dwelling exteriors where it is rained on and inside its as dry as inside the dwelling interiors , and there isn't any mold or other weathering effects on the cable or the cable sheath.


Oh nooooooooooo! It will burn and you will burn in hell for that!


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