# Old school build



## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

Wire numbers!!!!! Wire numbers!!!! Wire numbers.


Tip:
When doing the tie wraps, bundle wires nice and neat.
Start next tie wrap at same spot as the one you just did but don't pull tight just snug.
Then slide it up about 6" then tighten, this will let you keep wires neat and uniform.
Start at panel and work to door, reterminate if needed at door to keep things nice.

Otherwise good job they only get better, take pride in your work.

Cowboy


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## oliquir (Jan 13, 2011)

wire duct is needed, would be rejected by my client here


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

Looks good!

I like using mechanical relays instead of a fancy electronic PLC, much easier to troubleshoot (even though it rarely needs it). 

Don't hear the wrong thing, often a PLC is the best but sometimes it's just a waste of time and money.


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

Tip: Sticky pads (tie wrap blocks) or a piece of green solid wire. 
No one will notice solid core green wires going from one a zip screw in the back panel to another zip screw. Now you have a place to tie wrap all the other wires to keep them neat.

Also try to cross over to the door at least 8" up so the loop can not get caught in the door when you close it.


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

This isn’t really done, I typically number the wires and draw the ladder after the build. I see the ladder in my head and build and modify, then label and diagram it after the fact. It’s backwards I know but that’s how I do it. I’ve never had any formal training at all and have learned to do on my own and obviously have many bad habits as a result.


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## Helmut (May 7, 2014)

I always try to put the terminal blocks at the bottom of the panels. It's easier and neater running to the doors and out conduits that enter the bottom or sides.

And definitely wire numbers and a schematic inside.


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## Helmut (May 7, 2014)

460 Delta said:


> This isn’t really done, I typically number the wires and draw the ladder after the build. I see the ladder in my head and build and modify, then label and diagram it after the fact. It’s backwards I know but that’s how I do it. I’ve never had any formal training at all and have learned to do on my own and obviously have many bad habits as a result.


Always draw it out first. Then when wiring use a highlighter to mark lines or wires on the diagram as you go. mark wires with numbers as you go also. This eliminates forgetting where you left off and getting the wrong wires on the wrong device or TB point.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

micromind said:


> Looks good!
> 
> I like using mechanical relays instead of a fancy electronic PLC, much easier to troubleshoot (even though it rarely needs it).
> Don't hear the wrong thing, often a PLC is the best but sometimes it's just a waste of time and money.


A small smart relay or a small minimal PLC takes up less space, does everything you need and is the smart way to build panels these days. Relay logic is done and for one I am very thankful.
Much easier to trace wires with smart logic as well. One in and one out. I/O. Then its all in the smart device.
Ps.....Smart relays and PLC's are not fancy anymore. They have become a requirement.



460 Delta said:


> This isn’t really done, I typically number the wires and draw the ladder after the build. I see the ladder in my head and build and modify, then label and diagram it after the fact. It’s backwards I know but that’s how I do it. I’ve never had any formal training at all and have learned to do on my own and obviously have many bad habits as a result.


460. You need to *stop* doing that yesterday. It is wrong and it is much harder. Always draw the system/circuits/control panel out first. Always. Make it work on paper first.
Then if you have other electricians in your place, pass the drawing around and get feedback from the others. This is where your wire numbering starts. Every single wire gets a number on paper. This way when you build you must/should number every single wire.
Had anyone in our shop built a panel like yours, numbering would be the first complaint along with no print. Smart guys use the drawing to see issues and problems. There should never ever be a need to pull on a wire to see where it goes. Your schematic tells everyone where every wire goes. 
Once complete run/test panel on bench.

Yes. I am very animated when it comes to stuff like this.



Helmut said:


> Always draw it out first. Then when wiring use a highlighter to mark lines or wires on the diagram as you go. mark wires with numbers as you go also. This eliminates forgetting where you left off and getting the wrong wires on the wrong device or TB point.


My exact sentiments. Once he gets used to doing these things, he will think this way automatically. 
Its almost personal as you never know when he leaves that job or when another guy has to troubleshoot his panels.
I have cussed out many an electrician that I never even met.....LOL

Why do I think that panel gets put into service as is?


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

460 Delta said:


> This isn’t really done, I typically number the wires and draw the ladder after the build. I see the ladder in my head and build and modify, then label and diagram it after the fact. It’s backwards I know but that’s how I do it. I’ve never had any formal training at all and have learned to do on my own and obviously have many bad habits as a result.


Im with you I've never made a drawing before starting the job. Its never seemed that complicated to build a custom panel even with a plc.

Always seems to work first time.

Tbh ive never built a panel where i didn't understand the logic. Im not sure i could install something that i didn't understand what it did or how it worked even with a landing diagram.


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

John Valdes said:


> Then if you have other electricians in your place, pass the drawing around and get feedback from the others.


I remember doing this years ago when I was young in my 30's as a supervisor when ACAD came out. I asked my guys what do you think about the print layout? Everyone liked it, BUT one old guy in his fifty's said too small can't read it. We all busted him about it, NOW that I am that old guy I know where he came from.

Cowboy


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## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

just the cowboy said:


> I remember doing this years ago when I was young in my 30's as a supervisor when ACAD came out. I asked my guys what do you think about the print layout? Everyone liked it, BUT* one old guy in his fifty's said too small can't read it*. We all busted him about it, NOW that I am that old guy I know where he came from.
> 
> Cowboy


 Hey, I resemble that remark...

Lately I've taken to snapping a picture of things with my phone so that I can blow it up on the screen to read it. The youngsters laugh at me, then I tell them to get off my lawn!
:vs_mad:


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

Two things, Panduit, and the plastic din rail terminal blocks, not those screw type terminals. And of course number tags, and a drawing, as others said.


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

JRaef said:


> Hey, I resemble that remark...
> 
> Lately I've taken to snapping a picture of things with my phone so that I can blow it up on the screen to read it. The youngsters laugh at me, then I tell them to get off my lawn!
> :vs_mad:


I tell the young ones at !
35 you are going to put on 10 pounds and not get rid of them.
40 you are going to need reading glasses.
45 you are going to start saying " what did you say"
50 you will go to open a jar and go humm must be stuck
55 you will go to lift something heavy and say "they put more in this one"
60 you will " WHAT WERE WE TALKING ABOUT"
65 I will find out soon.

Funny thing is when I tell this to an older person they agree 100%
Younger ones just laugh it off, there time will come.

Cowboy


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

....


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

How can this even work? There are way more than two devices in that box.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

John Valdes said:


> A small smart relay or a small minimal PLC takes up less space, does everything you need and is the smart way to build panels these days. Relay logic is done and for one I am very thankful.
> Much easier to trace wires with smart logic as well. One in and one out. I/O. Then its all in the smart device.
> Ps.....Smart relays and PLC's are not fancy anymore. They have become a requirement.


I half agree half disagree. 

With relays, you have simple straightforward troubleshooting options you don't have with the PLC. You can see and hear the coil pull in. You can buy relays that you can override easily to simulate conditions. This can be a minor advantage if you don't feel like walking back to your truck for the laptop, then you don't have the cable you need, then etc. etc. It can be a major advantage if someone that doesn't have a laptop needs to work on it. 

With a PLC, you have code to maintain for the life of the machine, you need to have the current revision of the program on hand at all times. This can be a bit of a pain for some who are well organized and etc., and others who are not too squared away will find it completely impossible. 

I had a site where this was a recurring problem, twice a year for years, different people would look at the little PLC, some would spend half a day dicking around to make a minor change and download the software and work on it. It would get whacked by a surge and someone else would work on it, restore a not-current version of the code, and bad things would happen, then make it work some new way, and nobody else knows what they did. I ripped it out and replaced it with four or five relays. Never an issue since.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Now as for not drawing it out first - I could never do that, there would be white smoke or worse. I draw it, then number the drawing, check it and double check it, then wire by the numbers. When I am wiring it I am focused more on keeping it neat and making good connections than how it works.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

Sorry. If you worked for me I'd make you do it over.:vs_no_no_no:


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

splatz said:


> Now as for not drawing it out first - I could never do that, there would be white smoke or worse. I draw it, then number the drawing, check it and double check it, then wire by the numbers. When I am wiring it I am focused more on keeping it neat and making good connections than how it works.


If its my panel then im going to label the wire with the other end description i hate searching a panel for a number

R3-T5 (relay 3 terminal 5) or P1-hoA (pump one auto)


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

splatz said:


> I half agree half disagree.
> 
> With relays, you have simple straightforward troubleshooting options you don't have with the PLC. You can see and hear the coil pull in. You can buy relays that you can override easily to simulate conditions. This can be a minor advantage if you don't feel like walking back to your truck for the laptop, then you don't have the cable you need, then etc. etc. It can be a major advantage if someone that doesn't have a laptop needs to work on it.
> 
> ...


Yep had one of these a few months back. Version 14 which i have the licence but i have never installed. 
After 30 minutes of trying to get my laptop to play nice with my phone for a network then finding its nearly impossible to get a copy of version 14 online it got converted to 20 and screw the next guy.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

gpop said:


> If its my panel then im going to label the wire with the other end description i hate searching a panel for a number
> 
> R3-T5 (relay 3 terminal 5) or P1-hoA (pump one auto)


I like this idea but I have never done it, an example of a man's reach exceeding his grasp.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

gpop said:


> Im with you I've never made a drawing before starting the job. Its never seemed that complicated to build a custom panel even with a plc.
> 
> Always seems to work first time.
> 
> Tbh ive never built a panel where i didn't understand the logic. Im not sure i could install something that i didn't understand what it did or how it worked even with a landing diagram.


You would if you drew the "landing" diagram. You are much smarter than me and many others who need a print to build/ work from. How someone in their head determines all the logic for many wires and devices or smart device is beyond me.
I have put together control panels that take weeks to complete. How would someone be able to install everything, remember each individual line of logic and come out on the other end with anything that works? Its not possible.
*I would challenge you if you worked with me.*
I would give you the scope of the machines operation. Nothing more. Machines that do many things and interface with other equipment and peripheral devices.

Now building a control panel with a PLC or smart relay would be possible for me if it was very simple and did not perform multiple actions and interface with other equipment.
With a smart controller, you are only wiring inputs and outputs. So it may be possible to work without a drawing. But it would be silly first of all and dumb second of all.

You are a very smart man. I have seen your posts and you know plenty.
I'm sorry, you have no clue here. Or you are just wiring a simple stop/start station on the fly. No disrespect.

Oh...even the best laid out plans with prints do not always start properly on the first try. Thats why we call it commissioning a project. In all the years I have been in this work, I have yet to have one start up not have a couple hiccups. Not one.

460. You get a good grade for neatness and you will get better as you go.
However, should you be working with guys that say they don't need drawings, don't let them cloud your thinking.
Make a drawing and make sure it works on paper. Then get feedback if possible. Then take your drawing to order material (yes the drawing is how you build your PO) then finally when everything is on hand, start the installation of devices, wire channel and finally installing the wires one by one, numbering each end (yes even for jumpers) as you go.

There was no disrespect for your work. It was critiquing and hopefully advice you will put to good use.

One thing I left out was incorporating drives into the scheme. That is a control drawing all by itself. Make a drive do something without the terminal drawings. Can you make a drive work without the terminal connections? Without the manual? No man can do all this off the top of his head. No man.


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

John Valdes said:


> You would if you drew the "landing" diagram. You are much smarter than me and many others who need a print to build/ work from. How someone in their head determines all the logic for many wires and devices or smart device is beyond me.
> I have put together control panels that take weeks to complete. How would someone be able to install everything, remember each individual line of logic and come out on the other end with anything that works? Its not possible.
> *I would challenge you if you worked with me.*
> I would give you the scope of the machines operation. Nothing more. Machines that do many things and interface with other equipment and peripheral devices.
> ...


Ive watched people wire by numbers and what seems strange to me is that they don't seem to stick to any particular order. If i wire something i work 480 then 120 then 24 then analog then network. The whole idea that you can wire from top to bottom seems confusing to me. 

I also work wires start to finish so its completely logical to me rather than install a wire here then install another wire on a different control circuit over there.


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

As a response to the above posts, I tested it out and it worked fine, aside from one wire I didn't get under a screw good enough and a TDR that timed randomly if at all [it was well used]. Yeah my neatness isn't all that and unfortunately that's one of my bad habits, but I'll dress it up some before I shut the lid for the next several years. As to a diagram, in my 30 some odd years I've found less than 10 prints that were in the cabinet AND relevant to the current setup. Not saying the guy before me did me right, but I learned more by digging through the system and figuring out how it was designed then finding the problem than anything else. At a prior job I had a boiler fill valve issue that had a fairly complex relay system and I drew out a diagram from the valve back, I found the problem and pulled out a file to order the part and behold there was a hand drawn ladder like mine! Fun times.
I'll work on the bad habits thing but after all these years it's not easy to just stop and go another direction.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

@460 Delta, don't listen to these buzzards pecking at your work. I bet they are all married to supermodels, too. 

As for the neatness, I'd be VERY pleasantly surprised to open a box and find this. It's not art but it is neat and orderly. I could go in there cold and in less than an hour verify what goes where and probably have a pretty solid idea how it works. 

If it was zip tied into lovely perfect harnesses under panduit, it would be impossible to tug wires and verify connections. Unless it's my lucky day and I can easily figure out what's wrong, my first step would be to remove all the panduit covers, clip all the ties, and see what's going on. 

Panduit in a little box like this seems silly, more trouble than it's worth. Making the box bigger just so you can fit Panduit also seems silly. 

I would probably use regular terminal blocks rather than the old school, maybe the ones that the wires go in the top since space is limited. 

I do find that a wire number label on both ends of every wire is helpful, I just like numbering them by assigning a number to each "equipotential point" in the drawing and using a book of labels. 

I can and sometimes do make lovely wire art and cable ****. I don't post them here for two reasons, NDAs and I am not going to subject my beautiful panels to the nitpicks of these buzzards  But most of my work is neat, orderly, practical, affordable, reliable, maintainable, and REALISTIC like this, and the people I work with like it very much.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

gpop said:


> Ive watched people wire by numbers and what seems strange to me is that they don't seem to stick to any particular order. If i wire something i work 480 then 120 then 24 then analog then network. The whole idea that you can wire from top to bottom seems confusing to me.
> 
> I also work wires start to finish so its completely logical to me rather than install a wire here then install another wire on a different control circuit over there.


I do back pan wiring first. Larger conductors first if more than one size. When that is done, I move to the devices on the door and work the completed harness back to the back pan. This allows you the opportunity to make the door as neat as possible and hide any surplus wire in the panduit. Spiral wrap makes a neat job of a door harness.

I use a highlighter on the drawings to indicate completed wiring, when the entire drawing is yellow, I'm done. 

Grey panel wire allows you to temporarily write tiny labels with a fine sharpee when you terminate one end of a harness but are not ready to shape it into the back pan.


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## glen1971 (Oct 10, 2012)

Personally I don't care what wire number system is used. If it's well documented in the panel it can easily be traced out.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

splatz said:


> @460 Delta, don't listen to these buzzards pecking at your work. I bet they are all married to supermodels, too.
> 
> As for the neatness, I'd be VERY pleasantly surprised to open a box and find this. It's not art but it is neat and orderly. I could go in there cold and in less than an hour verify what goes where and probably have a pretty solid idea how it works.
> 
> ...


I agree completely.

I don't have the slightest problem with the work displayed in the OP but I have a serious problem with paying for the time it takes to make a basic panel a word of art. 

Like just about everything else, there's a balance. In this case, it's between spending a ton of time making a perfect panel that very few people will look at and making a rats nest. 

In my opinion, this panel is a pretty good balance.


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## Helmut (May 7, 2014)

splatz said:


> @460 Delta, don't listen to these buzzards pecking at your work.


Why not, that's why he posted it. 
I'd give him a solid C on this. If he listens to the feedback and makes some improvements, the next one should be a B. 



splatz said:


> Panduit in a little box like this seems silly, more trouble than it's worth. Making the box bigger just so you can fit Panduit also seems silly.


Definatley agree.
He could of used sticky backs for this little project, the good ones though... 



splatz said:


> I do find that a wire number label on both ends of every wire is helpful,


You ain't lying,, ever try to troubleshoot and E-stop problem when nothing is written down anywhere, and there are no numbers on any wires for the E-stop circuit? That blows...label both ends of the wires.


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## Helmut (May 7, 2014)

micromind said:


> I don't have the slightest problem with the work displayed in the OP but I have a serious problem with paying for the time it takes to make a basic panel a word of art.
> 
> Like just about everything else, there's a balance. In this case, it's between spending a ton of time making a perfect panel that very few people will look at and making a rats nest.


My first little control panel I built probably looked similar to that.
I got no problem admitting that. 

They get better the more you do.


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## bill39 (Sep 4, 2009)

oliquir said:


> wire duct is needed, would be rejected by my client here


While I agree that wire duct is usually preferred in control panels, it will increase the size of most panels because of spacing requirements needed btw terminals and the duct. For smaller panels it may not be needed if wires are neatly bundled and Ty-Rapped. Just saying....


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

bill39 said:


> While I agree that wire duct is usually preferred in control panels, it will increase the size of most panels because of spacing requirements needed btw terminals and the duct. For smaller panels it may not be needed if wires are neatly bundled and Ty-Rapped. Just saying....


Bill. This is why I always ordered a panel a bit bigger than really required.
It seems I was always adding stuff and I was glad I had the extra room.
Besides every one I built in the last many years had drives.
I might be vain, but my panels had to look better than anyone else's.

Whats your opinion on making a schematic first?


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## bill39 (Sep 4, 2009)

John Valdes said:


> Bill. This is why I always ordered a panel a bit bigger than really required.
> It seems I was always adding stuff and I was glad I had the extra room.
> Besides every one I built in the last many years had drives.
> I might be vain, but my panels had to look better than anyone else's.
> ...


Yes, definitely make a drawing first. You already have an idea of what you need in your mind so why not at the very least make a pencil drawing of it?

I catch a lot of mistakes that way plus it helps with determining wire tags, which are a must for a panel of any complexity.


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## Forge Boyz (Nov 7, 2014)

@John Valdes can you post pictures of some of the panels you built? 

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

I do not have any pictures. The last job I had, the supervisor recommended that I take pictures and asked why I had not taken pictures over the years?
I guess it never really crossed my mind until that day. 
There was also a rule about photos of the facility and most likely why I never brought a camera to work. That was the case at my last two jobs. 
I did not have a smart phone back then. 

It would be great to have an album to look back at. I guess it’s one of many boats that have sailed on me.


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## Helmut (May 7, 2014)

A couple more tid-bits to ponder:

Be careful about building controls for customer machines.


Things are different when someone else gives you the drawing and calls out each component they want in it, and you build to spec...... VS..... you being asked to build what they think they need and ask you to field engineer something "that'll work"

You now assume much more liability if something happens. Much more..you engineered and wired it up...


Having said this, and looking at this again, i'd of talked them into putting an E-stop on the front door of the cabinet. Might of even talked them into adding them somewhere around the machine your outfitting.


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

Working in industrial some times you build panels that are kinda authorized kinda not. 
E.g we skipped the planning, we didn't order any parts and its probably being done as a favor to a operator or a manager.

These panels are normally simple little jobs like adding a sensor probe that will shut a solenoid valve or open valve if the PH meter hits a set point. 
Its not uncommon to find machines with expensive meters that are for display use only and are not connected to any part of the system. 

At some point a spill happens or something else that a operator failed to notice so you get asked to add some automation using what ever you can either scrounge up or have on the van. 
Its not going to be perfect as you don't have the parts you would order for a designed panel but it will work and look ok when the door is closed. Some we list as temporary others get listed as proof of concept and one day they might give us the funds/time to go back and install a designed panel.


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

Helmut said:


> A couple more tid-bits to ponder:
> 
> Be careful about building controls for customer machines.
> 
> ...


Sounds like a fair point with the E-STOP, I will consider swapping out the rotary main power switch for a red mushroom switch. It looks good to safety types, but real world experience says they do little when the panic happens.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

gpop said:


> If its my panel then im going to label the wire with the other end description i hate searching a panel for a number
> 
> R3-T5 (relay 3 terminal 5) or P1-hoA (pump one auto)


When drawing a schematic, put a number on each end. 
If the electrician cannot find exactly where that wire is from looking at the schematic, he should be pulling wire and getting reading comprehension.

I mean every contact is labeled with state and coil. Why waste time putting all this on a wire. 
Every device inside the panel is labeled. Every device.

You see there's your problem and our problem. Your panel? What about when I come in behind you? Its still your panel and I will have no clue.
Just follow industry norms and do it right so anyone that comes in behind you can pick up the print and fix any problem that may be present.


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## Helmut (May 7, 2014)

Wire numbers also come in handy when you're t-shooting what you built.

You'll find stuff like forgetting a jumper on the TB to connect all the 2's, or wire number 15 is going on a NC side of the switch, and should be on the NO side, ect........a whole lot easier.


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## SCR (Mar 24, 2019)

I never realized I should be including wiring diagrams and schematics with such simple panels. On that note, could someone recommend a wiring diagram/schematic drawing software that is free and real easy to use. Thanks!


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## glen1971 (Oct 10, 2012)

SCR said:


> I never realized I should be including wiring diagrams and schematics with such simple panels. On that note, could someone recommend a wiring diagram/schematic drawing software that is free and real easy to use. Thanks!


I use Excel. Everyone's got it, and once I got the symbols built, it takes no time to build a drawing.


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## SCR (Mar 24, 2019)

I've only ever used excel for numbers. Could you post a small example of how you use excel for drawing?


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## glen1971 (Oct 10, 2012)

SCR said:


> I've only ever used excel for numbers. Could you post a small example of how you use excel for drawing?


Here's a couple I've built over the years. I couldn't save them as Excel, so they are in as PDF's. They are nothing fancy, but when printed and left on site it makes work for the next guy a little easier. On most of my "working" ones, I've got another sheet with only various symbols on it (level switches, pressure switches, solenoids, coils, contacts, etc). When I save the file I usually delete that sheet so I don't have 200 redundant sheets on my computer.


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## SCR (Mar 24, 2019)

Wow. I've always considered myself pretty proficient with excel, but i can see now I'm just a beginner. Thanks for the info.


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## glen1971 (Oct 10, 2012)

SCR said:


> Wow. I've always considered myself pretty proficient with excel, but i can see now I'm just a beginner. Thanks for the info.


No worries! I also use it for panel directories, cable schedules, PLC rack layouts, Fuse Distribution Drawings, junction boxes, etc.


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## MotoGP1199 (Aug 11, 2014)

I use Tinycad, it has a bunch of symbols and more you can download online. You can bring in pictures from manuals and add them as your own symbol as well. Drawing lines(wires) is easy and the program is made for electrical work. Oh yeah, did I mention

Its FREE

TinyCAD.net

super easy to use.


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## Yellow World (Oct 11, 2017)

For drawings I highly recommend DesignSpark Electrical. It's Freeware, the user interface is nearly identical to Solid Works. It comes with all of the common symbols and does a lot of work for you, such as wire numbering, device numbering, cross references and so on. You can create drawings of up to 15 pages with it, if I remember correctly. Works pretty fine for me. Once you get started, the learning curve is a little steep, you need to spend some time on learning the software first in order to save time later.

In terms of panel building I stand in line with most of the guys here, the drawing comes first, wiring comes after. And yes, wire numbers make our life much easier, even without drawing, wires can be traced easier. In my current company, there are only a hand full of machines, that actually have a valid wiring diagram. Some other machines have no diagram, but at least wire numbers. Mostly they don't have anything (anymore). For troubleshooting you have to pull out all the cables, trace them where they're going and once you're done you gotta push them back... Takes some patience sometimes.


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

Well this time I made a combo bag house shaker and a silo high level alarm out of some more salvage items. The AB tdr’s are new though. Before, the driver would hold down the button for approximately 30 seconds or until they felt like enough was enough. 
The tdr’s on the left are on delay set up to function as a one shot to sound an alarm and hopefully a pinch valve in the future.


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

Still see wire numbers missing!!!!
Show us your print. 
And stick to.

Black line voltage
Red AC control hot
White Neutral 
Blue DC + 
Blue /wh strip DC-
Yellow external control voltage.


Small $69 Click PLC /free software would of been cheaper than them timers I bet. And programming skills gained PRICELESS


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

just the cowboy said:


> Still see wire numbers missing!!!!
> Show us your print.
> And stick to.
> 
> ...


 Numbers are there, look again!


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

I see the numbers after I clicked on the picture.
Its common to adhere/place your numbers right next to the terminal you land it on. And to face the number to the front.
Not in this case, but if you had a panel with lots of wires, one would have to pull on them to see what number it was. 
Have to find the number possibly under more wires.

460. I think you are doing a great job and are doing even better by posting the pictures. 
I want to give you the advice I was given and the thinking that goes into this stuff.

I had a guy years ago that I looked up too and hoped I could be like him one day. 
He was smart and was a great controls guy.
He could not tell you one thing about the NEC or wiring of anything but industrial things.
He had no license. He never worked for an EC.
He was trained by the US Navy and they do a great job in this regard. He had worked for many years in industrial controls as well.
I took in everything he told me. 

When I left that company, I was the only electrician at my new company. Mid size plant 300 - 350 employees making polyethylene pipe.
I took all he taught me and all my back experience and started to do these things all by myself. I was proud of myself.
So proud I decided to get a license. The company pay for my school and I paid for my books.
Today I have my masters license from way back then. 1996.

So its all about you 460. I want you to be better than I could ever be. 
And you already are in many ways.
I want/hope you to look back and remember everyone that was part of your success.
You will be successful. I know you will! You already are.

Now. Wheres the drawing?


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

I like it, very nice. 



I am fifty fifty with @just the cowboy on the PLC. In addition to the learning aspect, you might have some future purpose that you can't do or isn't practical with relay logic. But this will be easy to maintain and reliable, so it's a win. 



I think this one, the DIN rail terminal blocks would be nicer, especially if you wind up adding things in in the future.


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

John Valdes said:


> I see the numbers after I clicked on the picture.
> Its common to adhere/place your numbers right next to the terminal you land it on. And to face the number to the front.
> Not in this case, but if you had a panel with lots of wires, one would have to pull on them to see what number it was.
> Have to find the number possibly under more wires.
> ...


The wire numbers are tough to position so that they show from the front, but a little moving and they are visible just fine. 
The drawing, well it’s two that’s related but separate control functions. The drawing is so simple that I figured no one would want to see it. Pics tomorrow, don’t laugh at the rough nature.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

John Valdes said:


> .
> He had no license.


So he was a laborer.


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

On a side note, is Automatic Timing Controls from King of Prussia Pa still in business? I remember using them years back and they held up like iron. The old blue tdr’s on the left are ATC timers.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

John Valdes said:


> I see the numbers after I clicked on the picture.
> Its common to adhere/place your numbers right next to the terminal you land it on. And to face the number to the front.
> Not in this case, but if you had a panel with lots of wires, one would have to pull on them to see what number it was.
> Have to find the number possibly under more wires.
> ...


Agree. 

If you can build a panel like that without any assistance, you have a pretty good handle on controls. 

As far as the PLC goes, I would have built it just as you did. 

I use PLCs only when the panel is too complex for discreet components or if it were EXCEEDINGLY easy to program; so far, I don't know of any that are. 

When considering the use of a PLC, one needs to remember that other people will very likely need to service the panel. There are a very large number of people out there who, if this panel had a PLC and it failed, would rip out the PLC and build the panel just as you did. Almost all of these people can troubleshoot basic components quickly and accurately but won't mess with a PLC at all. 

You built a nice panel.....it's simple, it does exactly what it's supposed to do and in the rare event that anything goes wrong, it'll be easy for any control person to fix and/or modify.


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## Helmut (May 7, 2014)

You're getting better. :smile:

The wire nut would keep me awake at nights though.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

Helmut said:


> You're getting better. :smile:
> 
> The wire nut would keep me awake at nights though.


It's a wirenut in an electrical box. It's fine. But I do question how that back plate is grounded.


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

Helmut said:


> You're getting better. :smile:
> 
> The wire nut would keep me awake at nights though.


The alarm buzzer has a fixed pigtail of wire and short of a terminal block of one, a wire nut was the answer. @HackWork will say a Wago is the real answer. 
Melatonin will help you sleep. :biggrin:


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

CoolWill said:


> It's a wirenut in an electrical box. It's fine. But I do question how that back plate is grounded.


It isn’t grounded yet or even installed, I just finished the assembly and snapped the pics. The iron work on r-mix plants are a big Ufer ground system that will get a bond wire to the back pan.


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

460 Delta said:


> Numbers are there, look again!


Your L1 on the relays are not numbered. Nor are the right side of the terminal strip 3-6 position from the top. Everything get a number, both sides of strip just in case one side falls off.

Keep it up it is the best way to learn by asking us to review.
Did you get a copy of my book. If not PM me and I will send you one.
It has some information that may help.

Cowboy


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

460 Delta said:


> On a side note, is Automatic Timing Controls from King of Prussia Pa still in business? I remember using them years back and they held up like iron. The old blue tdr’s on the left are ATC timers.


I used to live not far from their building in KOP, I looked them up out of curiosity, they have been gone a long time, part of Marsh Bellofram now.


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## CMP (Oct 30, 2019)

*Sample Panel Builds-Good Bad Ugly*

Couple of panel samples, for examples of do's and dont's from yesterdays service calls.


First up a hydraulic heat molding press. Didn't get a photo of the entire panel, just took a shot of the problem area as a reference before tearing into it. Photos are good for when you get interrupted in the middle of a deep dive, of uncharted territory. This old doggie has not one wire tag or label in it anywhere, unless you consider the masking tape tags from the last guy. And if you look closely, in the detritus in the panel bottom, you can almost make out the terminal strip down there. This was a starter replacement, one contact had the contact pad melted off, and was single phasing the hydraulic pump when put under high pressure load.









Then this one of a burnoff oven. Nice job inside the control panel, all wires and subplate items labeled, fairly straightforward.









But once you moved outside the control panel, not a single operator control or device had a label. This thing had two eclipse burners, five digital controllers, and several pilot lights and toggle switches, along with about six splice terminal boxes on the equipment side of the oven. At some point the operator printed some tags and labeled some of the controls.







This thing has not been operational for six years they said, and several folks had made an attempt. It was a mess, I spent half a day just on the wiring to the two burners. Once the burners were fixed, then it was time to figure out the sequence of operation, and look up the manuals for all of the onboard digital controllers. Good part was they had the wiring diagrams.
The panel builder did good, the oven assemblers, not so much.


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## Lone Crapshooter (Nov 8, 2008)

*tying FM200 systems into SCADA*

I am looking at tying 5 FM200 extinguishing systems into a SCADA system.
I know very little about SCADA but I was going to suggest using a 4-20 analog input and monitoring the current for the FM200 system condition. Each FM200 system would have it's own input . The FM200 systems have programmable relays and I want to place resistors in series with the contacts to change the current. 

4mA system normal less than 4mA system trouble.
+6mA 10mA system has the first alarm.
+6mA 16 mA system has a second alarm.
+4 mA 20 mA system has discharged.

To compensate for the system being in trouble the programming would be
4mA system normal <4mA system in trouble. >6mA but < 10mA system in alarm .>10mA but<16 mA system has second alarm. >16 mA system discharged.

This is my idea and I need to know if it is workable. 
Thanks

LC


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## VELOCI3 (Aug 15, 2019)

Why SCADA and not to the fire alarm panel


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Lone Crapshooter said:


> I am looking at tying 5 FM200 extinguishing systems into a SCADA system.
> I know very little about SCADA but I was going to suggest using a 4-20 analog input and monitoring the current for the FM200 system condition. Each FM200 system would have it's own input . The FM200 systems have programmable relays and I want to place resistors in series with the contacts to change the current.
> 
> 4mA system normal less than 4mA system trouble.
> ...


Could you make this four digital IO instead of a single analog?


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## Lone Crapshooter (Nov 8, 2008)

The SCADA is plant wide and the FM200 systems are scattered throughout the plant. Each FM200 system has it's own control panel.

Thanks for your help I made a mistake on this post and I am going to repost this tomorrow AM. I am surprised that anyone found it.
Thanks again 
LC


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