# major shorting problem



## look180 (Sep 24, 2009)

Ok so a guy went and changed all switches and plugs in the house: i got called after half of the house did not work when he left, i found one bus bar is not working because of loose and corroded lug on main breaker it was working on and off when i was messing with it. The main breaker is no longer available so need to change out panel....old square d 100a main

Second: with power off multiple circuits have continuity between ground/neutral and hot legs, and also hot leg to hot leg..two of the circuits are backfeeding from somewhere so when you turn them on they either blow or if you have one of the two off its feeding the other circuits if that makes sense..i have searched and pulled out switches and plugs toned and ran continuity but have not found anything...

The guy who changed p and s swears he didnt cross anything and just took the wires off old and put it same on new..any ideas or info would be greatly appreciated!


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

What brand of devices were in before? P&S switches 3-ways and 4-ways different than Levition, and if the original wiring switches neutrals..........

If you've got two circuits that are tied together somewhere, turn those circuits off and look for a multi-gang switch box. Odds are, that's where they're tied together.

Basically, it's a crap shoot where the short is.


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## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

Do you have the individual breakers off or just the main when you are ringing them out?


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## woodchuck2 (Sep 18, 2009)

Are you unplugging all devices before ringing them out? Having a clock or a light bulb in will give you a circuit from neutral to hot. As said above you will be chasing this one, you might be better off just taking everything apart this guy did and check his work.


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## look180 (Sep 24, 2009)

The plugs and switches were very old so the guy changed some of them to leviton decora switches and just new reg outlets, they left some of them how they were because they had fancy covers etc..there were a few three ways but had been wired with two ways so one had control over the other one wierd..the house is designed like comm. building pipe and thhn going every which way, there is only a few overhead lights in kitch and halls most of the rooms have switched plugs.. he did not touch lights. 

I turn the breakers off then ring them out, get cont. between various circuits and ground its like they are all tied together but the ones i found that were phasing out and pull them off breaker and it has voltage on it.


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## crazymurph (Aug 19, 2009)

480 and Woodchuck are right on as far as where to check. I had one a few years ago where the HO changed some plugs in his kitchen. A simple job for anyone handy. What he did not realize was that his countertop plugs were fed with 12/3 and were split for 2 circuits. When he got done and turned on the breaker he had a line to line short. He did not know about removing the tab between the 2 hot screws. It was an easy fix for me, but I would never wire outlets like that. I do not see much advantage and several problems.


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## jbfan (Jan 22, 2007)

Is this you?
http://www.diychatroom.com/f18/shorting-bus-bar-problems-53607/


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## crazymurph (Aug 19, 2009)

I smell DIY. Close the thread!


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## look180 (Sep 24, 2009)

Yea i posted over there before i found this place...So when i go back over there im going to just tear apart every switch and plug that was replaced and just work from there i didnt want to do that because of time but its the only way to find the prob..thank you guys


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

I must be getting old because i have seen many of these problems. I had a call at an apartment/business for exactly the same thing. They had been rewired and all that you described occurred. I opened every receptacle and switch box to find that whoever installed the devices stripped the insulation about one and one half inches longer than needed . Most of the devices were installed that way and most had either the neutral shorted to the hot or shorted to the grounding conductor. Hope this helps. I had been called by the utility to check it out because the contractor haad been there working without a permit.


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## I_get_shocked (Apr 6, 2009)

I really find it hard to believe that you are a journeyman and cant run down the steps to troubleshoot this type of situation.

I am an apprentice and would be able to figure this one out with my eyes closed :blink:

I mean no offense but if you have to go to the internet to determine how to troubleshoot this situation you DON'T DESERVE YOUR LICENSE.

PS. I think you are a homeowner/hack/DIY in disguise


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

look180 said:


> Ok so a guy went and changed all switches and plugs in the house: !


That was the problem right there. He should have changed the receptacles instead.


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## look180 (Sep 24, 2009)

FYI i fixed all the problems, i knew what had to be done just came on and posted here to get some postive feedback from fello sparkies , but instead i have a smart apprentice talking  like he is even worth anything!


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## heavysparky (Jun 2, 2009)

look180 said:


> The plugs and switches were very old so the guy changed some of them to leviton decora switches and just new reg outlets, they left some of them how they were because they had fancy covers etc..there were a few three ways but had been wired with two ways so one had control over the other one wierd..the house is designed like comm. building pipe and thhn going every which way, there is only a few overhead lights in kitch and halls most of the rooms have switched plugs.. he did not touch lights.
> 
> I turn the breakers off then ring them out, get cont. between various circuits and ground its like they are all tied together but the ones i found that were phasing out and pull them off breaker and it has voltage on it.



upon further review. The term hack still stands.
seems like you guys were lost before you even started this job


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

I didn't read any replies but my first thought is 1/2 switched receps.

Sometimes they are wire with a switch loop and the HO's just go blk/blk, wht,wht which causes a dead short when the switch is turned on.

I'll go read the replies now.



> most of the rooms have switched plugs


There you go. I bet I was right 




> FYI i fixed all the problems


, 

Care to elaborate?





> i knew what had to be done just came on and posted here to get some postive feedback from fello sparkies , but instead i have a smart apprentice talking  like he is even worth anything


I could troubleshoot pretty good just a few months in. I trained a guy who worked with us for a decade then got his contractors licence and went off on his own. He _never did_ fully "get it".

Some people just "get it" quicker than others.


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## Sparky480 (Aug 26, 2007)

Maybe this is a stupid question and you guys call things different but what is a "two way switch"?


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Sparky480 said:


> Maybe this is a stupid question and you guys call things different but what is a "two way switch"?


Just something to "stir the pot" since the ground up - ground down debate got worn out


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## Sparky480 (Aug 26, 2007)

Defiantly grounds down! lol


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## sparky105 (Sep 29, 2009)

was there any of the connect all the wires and then twist the device into the box 180 degrees so the wire cross each other and short line to neu or line to ground that is always a fun one to fined or the DIY trick of switches with line on 1 screw and neu on the other light show :thumbup:


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## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

So what was the problem? I'm betting the tab on the switched recepticles to.


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

Maybe there never was a problem. ¿¿¿


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## look180 (Sep 24, 2009)

Ok so first thing i did was check recepticles and switches, the guy who changed them out didnt know you had to break tab off for switched recept so i did that, also fixed the three way switching issues by adding three ways duhh...

On the panel side: I found one conductor that was lugged down with two other conductors that was backfeeding so disconnected it. I did find a new main breaker so i installed it turned everything on to see what was not working but to my suprise everything in the house worked fine. So i just capped it off. 


ps:I meant single poles when i said two ways lol..


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## I_get_shocked (Apr 6, 2009)

look180 said:


> FYI i fixed all the problems, i knew what had to be done just came on and posted here to get some postive feedback from fello sparkies , but instead i have a smart apprentice talking  like he is even worth anything!



Make sure you carry your laptop on service calls.... Never know when you might need to post another help me thread... errr "troubleshoot"


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## RMatthis (Nov 9, 2009)

First Question to ask when troubleshooting "What did you touch?". 
If they DID touch something and won't tell you You will soon find out and can say "I could have saved you $600 bucks if you just told me in the first place...we accept cash, check or visa"


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