# Coffee machine



## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

Specs:
120/240 volts
Amps: 29.1
Tank heater watts [email protected]
Total watts: 6800
2p30 amp breaker
Called tech he said 15amps per leg
What size should I use?
Should I just 10wire and be done with it! 

http://www.bunnomatic.com/pdfs/commercial/specsheets/a27.pdf
Here is the link.

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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> Specs:
> 120/240 volts
> Amps: 29.1
> Tank heater watts [email protected]
> ...


The tech is a moron and yes this would be a two pole 30 amp breaker, the circuit must also include a neutral.


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

So after reviewing 210.23(b) I can't use 10wire and have to use #8
is there an exception that I'm not aware of?

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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

Now I went to table 310.16, 75 degree column # 10 wire rated 35 x .8= 28 amps
I'm i interpring this correctly. 
So I'm okay with # 10's ????

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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

Does that unit run sustained, longer than 3 hrs ?


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

dronai said:


> Does that unit run sustained, longer than 3 hrs ?


No, even if left on all day a coffee maker is not a 'continuous load' per the NEC definition.


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

*coffee*

Well our coffee pot runs 24 hours a day ! We use the duty cycle table because we have to shut down to clean it and refill with new beans .

Wow perfect time on these post


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

BBQ said:


> No, even if left on all day a coffee maker is not a 'continuous load' per the NEC definition.


So 28 amps is okay on 10 wire even though there was a section that stated 24 amps , just don't know if that would apply

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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

BBQ said:


> No, even if left on all day a coffee maker is not a 'continuous load' per the NEC definition.


 
A T-Stat !


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

piperunner said:


> Well our coffee pot runs 24 hours a day !


If it did at best your coffee would boil and at worst you would have a fire.


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> So 28 amps is okay on 10 wire even though there was a section that stated 24 amps , just don't know if that would apply
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


Okay 24 amps only applies if there Is more them 2 rec on the same circuit.

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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

BBQ said:


> If it did at best your coffee would boil and at worst you would have a fire.



We like black boiled coffee at work great for break time !


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

piperunner said:


> We like black boiled coffee at work great for break time !


Espresso okay!!

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## partyman97_3 (Oct 11, 2009)

I installed an outlet for one of these about a year ago at a motel. They speced a 250 volt receptacle. I pulled a black red and white in the conduit, made up the black and red on the receptacle and capped off the neutral. When the wizards came to install the unit, they brought a 250/125 volt unit with them. He took one look at the recepticle and said no worry, I have the right receptacle in my truck. He than told me he would swap it out for me and tie the neutral to the ground. I told him not to touch a thing. Scares me a little to think there may be more of these installations out there. Hate to think I could take a ground apart upstream from this and get hammered.


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

piperunner said:


> Well our coffee pot runs 24 hours a day ! We use the duty cycle table because we have to shut down to clean it and refill with new beans .
> 
> Wow perfect time on these post


 Your avatar is from Dora The Explorer.....wow thats sad that know that.....


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## Josue (Apr 25, 2010)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> Amps: 29.1
> 
> 
> 
> Called tech he said 15amps per leg


 
So, if the amperage it uses is 29.1A , then _at least_ you'd need a 30A breaker right? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

So the tech guy says that 15A per leg will do. That's wrong isn't it?? 
Because for example if you have a 2 pole breaker of 15A and hypothetically one pole goes over 15A then both poles (all the 2 pole breaker) tips, right??
The total amperage capacity of the breaker doesn't add (for each leg) like the tech thought that 15 in one leg + 15 in the other leg= 30A.


Or am I half/ none right?


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Josue said:


> So, if the amperage it uses is 29.1A , then _at least_ you'd need a 30A breaker right? Please correct me if I'm wrong.


In my opinion you are correct.



> So the tech guy says that 15A per leg will do. That's wrong isn't it??


Yes, the tech guy is clueless.




> Because for example if you have a 2 pole breaker of 15A and hypothetically one pole goes over 15A then both poles (all the 2 pole breaker) tips, right??
> The total amperage capacity of the breaker doesn't add (for each leg) like the tech thought that 15 in one leg + 15 in the other leg= 30A.
> 
> 
> Or am I half/ none right?


I would say right.

If the circuit is a simple two wire circuit from a two pole breaker the current on one pole has to match the current on the other pole and both poles can handle up to 30 amps.


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

Do I use table 310.16b 75 degree column to size my conductors in this instance?
Is 10 wire acceptable.

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## Josue (Apr 25, 2010)

BBQ said:


> In my opinion you are correct.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks Bob.

I think I finally got one right.:laughing::thumbsup:

Thanks


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> Do I use table 310.16b 75 degree column to size my conductors in this instance?
> Is 10 wire acceptable.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


Yes, 75 degrees 29.1 amps #10 wire.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

dronai said:


> Does that unit run sustained, longer than 3 hrs ?


 

it's got a thermostat


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## Island Electric (May 9, 2011)

I would run #8 THHN in pipe. But that is how we do it here.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Full amperage is only when it is brewing _and_ all warmers are on. 

It does not brew for three house. Or more accurately, it is not _expected_ to brew for three hours.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Island Electric said:


> I would run #8 THHN in pipe. But that is how we do it here.


Oh yeah ..... well I would run 6 in stainless steel conduit.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Island Electric said:


> I would run #8 THHN in pipe. But that is how we do it here.


OK. But would you explain why?


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

Island Electric said:


> I would run #8 THHN in pipe. But that is how we do it here.


# 8 are not required based table 310.16b after applying 80% rule

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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Speedy Petey said:


> OK. But would you explain why?


Bigger is better, right? :whistling2:


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Island Electric said:


> I would run #8 THHN in pipe. But that is how we do it here.


 
I understand you running pipe there. But why the bigger wire?


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> # 8 are not required based table 310.16b after applying 80% rule


HUH?? :blink:

Do you mean Table 310.15(B)(2)(a)?
You only have two CCC's in this circuit.


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

Speedy Petey said:


> HUH?? :blink:
> 
> Do you mean Table 310.15(B)(2)(a)?
> You only have two CCC's in this circuit.


Table 310.16

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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> Table 310.16
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


 

What 80% rule?


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

mcclary's electrical said:


> What 80% rule?


Yeah. Now I am confused too. 

Sal, no offense, but your profile says "Master Electrician". Some of these questions are pretty basic. Meaning any master electrician would either know them, or know precisely where to look for them. 
What gives?


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

mcclary's electrical said:


> What 80% rule?


80% of a branch circuit is allowed to be used

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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

310.16 states # 10 wire 75 degree column max ampacity is 35 amps so 80% of 35 is 28. I can't find anything in the code book that will address my installation other then what 210.23 ( b ). Was curious if anyone as had any exp with these coffee machines and if any inspector as failed the installation for using # 10 when the load is 28 amps 240 volt.

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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

dronai said:


> Does that unit run sustained, longer than 3 hrs ?


No

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## tates1882 (Sep 3, 2010)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> Do I use table 310.16b 75 degree column to size my conductors in this instance?
> Is 10 wire acceptable.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


 what wiring method are you using? NO. 10 thhn is good for 40amps, but you can only put it on a 30amp cb max.


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## tates1882 (Sep 3, 2010)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> 80% of a branch circuit is allowed to be used
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


I know what you are talking about.


I wonder if the nameplate gives you a max overcurrrent device size?


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## Island Electric (May 9, 2011)

Why? Because I personally do not like the Idea of a 29.1 amp load on a 30 amp breaker. 

Yes #10awg THHN wire is rated for more amperage in 310-16 with 3 CCC's but can only be protected by a 30 amp breaker. 

Would I loose the job if bidding up against someone who would bid it for #10's probably. 

I'm trying to be honest here when I see a 29.1 amp load with heating elements my natural instinct is to run #8 awg wire.

In the future I will be more careful with my advise.


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## Mike_586 (Mar 24, 2009)

captkirk said:


> Your avatar is from Dora The Explorer.....wow thats sad that know that.....


:laughing:

I'm lucky, I'm only stuck watching one lame cartoon over and over...Phineas and Ferb. The only other cartoons he likes are the old Donald Duck shorts and looney toons which still make me laugh 

Other than that the son likes watching the discovery channel and shows like How It's Made, Mythbusters, Mighty Ships and that kind of stuff.


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## tates1882 (Sep 3, 2010)

Island Electric said:


> Why? Because I personally do not like the Idea of a 29.1 amp load on a 30 amp breaker.
> 
> Yes #10awg THHN wire is rated for more amperage in 310-16 with 3 CCC's but can only be protected by a 30 amp breaker.
> 
> ...


 Thats why the Nec is the min. Nothings wrong with your method, different strokes for different folks


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

tates1882 said:


> what wiring method are you using? NO. 10 thhn is good for 40amps, but you can only put it on a 30amp cb max.


 true, i forgot the wire in ac cable is 90 degrees rated so i could use the 90 column, i used the 75 because the panel was old dont know if it has a 75 degree rating. Anyways, im confident that #10 wire is sufficient for a 28 amp load ... unless someone else proves me wrong


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

tates1882 said:


> I know what you are talking about.
> 
> 
> I wonder if the nameplate gives you a max overcurrrent device size?


 the nameplate doesnt.. i even asked the tech what nema plug they use they said i have to field install..
the problem is i bid for three they want to install 5 more so i wanna cover my ass and the inspector i deal with is un-avail, hes in the hospital .. no big deal im confident that 10wire is min code max c/b 30amps....:thumbsup:


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## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

Island Electric said:


> Why? Because I personally do not like the Idea of a 29.1 amp load on a 30 amp breaker.
> 
> Yes #10awg THHN wire is rated for more amperage in 310-16 with 3 CCC's but can only be protected by a 30 amp breaker.
> 
> ...


 i would agree with you here, i would rather be safe than sorry as well, however a coffee pot SHOULD not be continuious load or for three consecutive hrs. so i might lean more towards #10. it should have a T-stat on integerally built in. why couldnt they design these damn things to draw 26 amps or even 31... takes alot of the guess work out of it.. ( I hate to say "GUESS WORK" on this forum


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## Island Electric (May 9, 2011)

*


BBQ said:



Oh yeah ..... well I would run 6 in stainless steel conduit.

Click to expand...

*I know you were joking but let me explain.

I did not mean to make anything sound dramatic by saying i would run pipe. 

It's just that everything around here is in pipe. The only time I can run what I call a whip is for remodeling. Even then I use 3/8" Greenfield and put THHN str. wire in there. 

We are not allowed to use BX, MC or Romex cable here. All the houses are piped when they are built new and commercial work is pipe only. Yes you can whip motors, lights ect. but must come from a J box and not be more than 6'.

The one thing I do not want to happen is for me to come off like a know it all because I am far from that. This is a great site where I see guys will call you out in a second on things you say and that makes me like it even more now. Peace.


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## tates1882 (Sep 3, 2010)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> the nameplate doesnt.. i even asked the tech what nema plug they use they said i have to field install..
> the problem is i bid for three they want to install 5 more so i wanna cover my ass and the inspector i deal with is un-avail, hes in the hospital .. no big deal im confident that 10wire is min code max c/b 30amps....:thumbsup:


I think you are fine with no 10.


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

Speedy Petey said:


> Yeah. Now I am confused too.
> 
> Sal, no offense, but your profile says "Master Electrician". Some of these questions are pretty basic. Meaning any master electrician would either know them, or know precisely where to look for them.
> What gives?


That's funny i just checked your profile and your a licensed contractor, so, you should have a masters electrician license and your critiqing me about the 80% rule of branch circuit ratings which you know nothing about!!!! LMFAO!!! i just had to say that!! no offense!!! some guys just forget about it......


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## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> the nameplate doesnt.. i even asked the tech what nema plug they use they said i have to field install..
> the problem is i bid for three they want to install 5 more so i wanna cover my ass and the inspector i deal with is un-avail, hes in the hospital .. no big deal im confident that 10wire is min code max c/b 30amps....:thumbsup:


 its been my experience that they only state max/min OCPD on motororized equipment(mostly).. i was going to ask the same question earlier in the post. i would go with #10 also, have not done a lot of research but cant find anything right up front that prohibits this


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## tates1882 (Sep 3, 2010)

Island Electric said:


> I know you were joking but let me explain.
> 
> I did not mean to make anything sound dramatic by saying i would run pipe.
> 
> ...


Its more of an inside joke, hell I would run pvc coated rmc and scotchkote everything:laughing:. Classic my dog is bigger than yours.


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## Island Electric (May 9, 2011)

*


rnr electric said:



i would agree with you here, i would rather be safe than sorry as well, however a coffee pot SHOULD not be continuious load or for three consecutive hrs. so i might lean more towards #10. it should have a T-stat on integerally built in. why couldnt they design these damn things to draw 26 amps or even 31... takes alot of the guess work out of it.. ( I hate to say "GUESS WORK" on this forum

Click to expand...

*

I know exactly what you mean and when it gets close like that I do not think twice about moving up a wire size. 

I think of it like this... the restaurant is full and the coffee machine goes down because the breaker trips. The little bit extra spent on the wire would have paid for itself in coffee and the service call. 

29.1 amps on a 30 amp breaker I would say the breaker is going to run hot and eventually get weak. I do not like to do minimum work even if I loose the job in this particular situation. Thats just me though.


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## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

Island Electric said:


> *
> *
> 
> I know exactly what you mean and when it gets close like that I do not think twice about moving up a wire size.
> ...


 had a contractor call me last week, one of my guys put a 28 min 45max a/c unit on a 30a brkr.. it tripped and he was pissed. put a letter in everybodys check telling them i would rather go "middle of the road" and be safe rather than sorry.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

rnr electric said:


> had a contractor call me last week, one of my guys put a 28 min 45max a/c unit on a 30a brkr..
> 
> Did they run #10 ?


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

Josue said:


> So, if the amperage it uses is 29.1A , then _at least_ you'd need a 30A breaker right? Please correct me if I'm wrong.
> 
> So the tech guy says that 15A per leg will do. That's wrong isn't it??
> Because for example if you have a 2 pole breaker of 15A and hypothetically one pole goes over 15A then both poles (all the 2 pole breaker) tips, right??
> ...


This is why that dude is a coffee machine tech.



Salvatoreg02 said:


> That's funny i just checked your profile and your a licensed contractor, so, you should have a masters electrician license and your critiqing me about the 80% rule of branch circuit ratings which you know nothing about!!!! LMFAO!!! i just had to say that!! no offense!!! some guys just forget about it......


Easy there cowboy! Methinks it's you that's confused about the "80% rule." What I believe you're referring to is the general requirement to size circuits to 125% of the amp requirement of a *continuous load*. Or, conversely, don't load up a given circuit over 80% with *continuous loads*.

This rule does not apply to non-continuous loads. A commercial coffee machine would be considered a "thermostatically controlled kitchen equipment" and would not be considered continuous. It cycles the heating elements on and off and on and off, etc. In that case you're just fine putting 29.1 amp non-continuous load on a 30 amp circuit.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

rnr electric said:


> had a contractor call me last week, one of my guys put a 28 min 45max a/c unit on a 30a brkr.. it tripped and he was pissed. put a letter in everybodys check telling them i would rather go "middle of the road" and be safe rather than sorry.


That is not the same thing at all and you should be installing 10 AWG to that unit with a 45 amp breaker.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> 80% of a branch circuit is allowed to be used
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


 

BS...............


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> That's funny i just checked your profile and your a licensed contractor, so, you should have a masters electrician license *and your critiqing me about the 80% rule of branch circuit ratings which you know nothing about!!!!* LMFAO!!! i just had to say that!! no offense!!! some guys just forget about it......


You keep thorwing this "80% rule" around like it is _one_ specific thing. 
PLEASE explain exactly what you are talking about. :001_huh:

Do you mean:
210.23(B)? 
Table 310.15(B)(2)(a)?

Neither apply here. 



And yes, I hold the only two masters licenses required in my area. :thumbsup:


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> That's funny i just checked your profile and your a licensed contractor, so, you should have a masters electrician license and your critiqing me about the 80% rule of branch circuit ratings which you know nothing about!!!! LMFAO!!! i just had to say that!! no offense!!! some guys just forget about it......


 

Petey is very very good. You're calling yourself a master, but asking beginner questions:blink:


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

BBQ answered the OP's question on the first page. WTF are we still on topic several pages later? :blink:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

I think Salvatoreg02 was union trained, he must know the code better than a scab like me.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> BBQ answered the OP's question on the first page. WTF are we still on topic several pages later? :blink:


The more salvatore02 post , the worst he looks


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> The more salvatore02 post , the worst he looks





He has always sounded like a greenhorn to me....:whistling2:


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Article 422 Appliances



> 422.10 Branch-Circuit Rating.
> This section specifies the ratings of branch circuits capable of carrying appliance current without overheating under the conditions specified.
> 
> (A) Individual Circuits. *The rating of an individual branch circuit shall not be less than the marked rating of the appliance or the marked rating of an appliance having combined loads as provided in 422.62.*


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

Can someone please post article 210.23(b)
The last sentence states. " a rating of any one cord-and-plug connected utilization equipment shall not exceed 80 percent of the branch circuit ampere rating.

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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

Speedy Petey said:


> You keep thorwing this "80% rule" around like it is one specific thing.
> PLEASE explain exactly what you are talking about. :001_huh:
> 
> Do you mean:
> ...


You didn't even read it 210.23(b) does apply. Permissible loads section
310.16 table of less then 3ccc.

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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> Can someone please post article 210.23(b)
> The last sentence states. " a rating of any one cord-and-plug connected utilization equipment shall not exceed 80 percent of the branch circuit ampere rating.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


..............................



> (B) 30-Ampere Branch Circuits. A 30-ampere branch circuit shall be permitted to supply fixed lighting units with heavy-duty lampholders in other than a dwelling unit(s) *or utilization equipment in any occupancy.* A rating of any one cord-and-plug-connected utilization equipment shall not exceed 80 percent of the branch-circuit ampere rating.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Sounds like two sections conflicting except that you never mentioned cord and plug. The unit does not show a cord.


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

mcclary's electrical said:


> BS...............


So when calculating a branch circuit we can exceed 80% of what it's rated for?

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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> So when calculating a branch circuit we can exceed 80% of what it's rated for?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


80% is for continuous load. You can use 100% as long as the load is not continuous.


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Sounds like two sections conflicting except that you never mentioned cord and plug. The unit does not show a cord.


I did mention in one of the posts later on

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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> You didn't even read it 210.23(b) does apply. Permissible loads section
> 310.16 table of less then 3ccc.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


Remember sal the coffee maker is only going to draw full load current while the coffee is brewing so iit will only run at full laod for a few minutes..

not 3 hours or more...:thumbsup:


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> 80% is for continuous load. You can use 100% as long as the load is not continuous.


Really, a circuit for lights can be maxed out in a residential dwelling? COME ON!!

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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

HARRY304E said:


> Remember sal the coffee maker is only going to draw full load current while the coffee is brewing so iit will only run at full laod for a few minutes..
> 
> not 3 hours or more...:thumbsup:


 I understand that I know it's not continuos ,
N
Bb

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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> Really, a circuit for lights can be maxed out in a residential dwelling? COME ON!!



Code wise yes, yes it can.

That is not to say I would normally do that but it is good to know you can.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> Really, a circuit for lights can be maxed out in a residential dwelling? COME ON!!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


Well, you don't have to believe it but yes it can. Is it a good idea, perhaps not.


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

Will discuss more later.

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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

IMO, if this unit is direct wired a #10 on a 30 amp circuit is fine but for some reason if it is cord and plug it appears it will need a #8 and 40 amp circuit.


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

Dennis Alwon said:


> IMO, if this unit is direct wired a #10 on a 30 amp circuit is fine but for some reason if it is cord and plug it appears it will need a #8 and 40 amp circuit.


 
Dennis, I believe that the difference is the "80%" is for two or more outlet or receptacles. 210.23 Permissible Loads. In this case there is only going to be one receptacle for the coffee maker and it can be load at 100%.


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

Roger123 said:


> Dennis, I believe that the difference is the "80%" is for two or more outlet or receptacles. 210.23 Permissible Loads. In this case there is only going to be one receptacle for the coffee maker and it can be load at 100%.


Please read 210.23b does it sound as if it applies to one outlet or more then one?
Thank you.

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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Roger123 said:


> Dennis, I believe that the difference is the "80%" is for two or more outlet or receptacles. 210.23 Permissible Loads. In this case there is only going to be one receptacle for the coffee maker and it can be load at 100%.



I don't think so but I can see how it may be taken that way.



> (B) 30-Ampere Branch Circuits. A 30-ampere branch circuit shall be permitted to supply fixed lighting units with heavy-duty lampholders in other than a dwelling unit(s) or utilization equipment in any occupancy. *A rating of any one cord-and-plug-connected utilization equipment shall not exceed 80 percent of the branch-circuit ampere rating.*


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> Please read 210.23b does it sound as if it applies to one outlet or more then one?
> Thank you.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


Yes, I believe it applies to two or more outlets, Sal. The last line in 210.23 gives directions for 210.23(A) through (D). Please read last line in 210.23, it states in part: "A branch circuit suppling two or more outlets or receptacles......"


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

*A rating of any one cord-and-plug-connected utilization equipment shall not exceed 80 percent of the branch-circuit ampere rating.* 

Yes, and I interpret this to mean any one cord & plug piece of equip. on a branch circuit with two or more receptacles.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Roger123 said:


> *A rating of any one cord-and-plug-connected utilization equipment shall not exceed 80 percent of the branch-circuit ampere rating.*
> 
> Yes, and I interpret this to mean any one cord & plug piece of equip. on a branch circuit with two or more receptacles.


You may be correct and it makes sense with the section I quoted earlier in appliances. I just think it is poorly worded if that is the meaning.


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

So with all the research done, who can tell me definitely that 10 wire will be acceptable with a load that is 28 amps non continuos?
please show all work on scrap paper.

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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> So with all the research done, who can tell me definitely that 10 wire will be acceptable with a load that is 28 amps non continuos?
> please show all work on scrap paper.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


Also the unit is cord and plug connected

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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> So with all the research done, who can tell me definitely that 10 wire will be acceptable with a load that is 28 amps non continuos?
> please show all work on scrap paper.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


It seems to be that #10 should be fine but art. 210.23 (A)(1) seems to indicate 80% but that is for 20 amp loads max. I think that (B) seems to indicate the same but there is definitely a contradiction in art. 422.10(A).


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> It seems to be that #10 should be fine but art. 210.23 (A)(1) seems to indicate 80% but that is for 20 amp loads max. I think that (B) seems to indicate the same but there is definitely a contradiction in art. 422.10(A).


It also applies to 30 amps

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## inspector1 (May 12, 2011)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> 310.16 states # 10 wire 75 degree column max ampacity is 35 amps so 80% of 35 is 28. I can't find anything in the code book that will address my installation other then what 210.23 ( b ). Was curious if anyone as had any exp with these coffee machines and if any inspector as failed the installation for using # 10 when the load is 28 amps 240 volt.
> 
> I have read some of the responses hear, but some are forgetting what the listing and labeling of the machine specifically requires. The label says, 29.1 amps @ 120/240. We do not consider if it is or is not a continous load. The approved label has determined it is not a continous load. The 120 volt load is 200 VA. therefore, we add 200 VA to one leg of the 3300 VA=3500/120=29.1 amps. The label has already done this calc. The testing lab has determined that it is not a continous load.
> 
> ...


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Roger123 said:


> Yes, I believe it applies to *two or more outlets*, Sal. The last line in 210.23 gives directions for 210.23(A) through (D). Please read last line in 210.23, it states in part: "A branch circuit suppling *two or more outlets or receptacles*......"


Exactly!

As long as this unit is on an individual circuit #10 on a 30A is perfectly code legal and acceptable. 
I don't see how this can be made any more clear.


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

Thank you to all for your wisdom.. This conversation as been interesting.

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## Josue (Apr 25, 2010)

Speedy Petey said:


> Exactly!
> 
> As long as this unit is on an individual circuit #10 on a 30A is perfectly code legal and acceptable.
> I don't see how this can be made any more clear.


Hey, I didn't understand. :jester:


Could ya'll explain this to me in five more pages??:jester:


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

rnr electric said:


> had a contractor call me last week, one of my guys put a 28 min 45max a/c unit on a 30a brkr.. it tripped and he was pissed. put a letter in everybodys check telling them i would rather go "middle of the road" and be safe rather than sorry.


It that screnaio couldn't you have just increase the breaker size base on that 175% rule for start ups.. I'll find the section later.

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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

BBQ said:


> I think Salvatoreg02 was union trained, he must know the code better than a scab like me.


Remember I didn't call you a scab you did,,,lol!

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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

jwjrw said:


> He has always sounded like a greenhorn to me....:whistling2:


What's a greenhorn? is that a term they use in the south...

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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> He has always sounded like a greenhorn to me....:whistling2:


:laughing::laughing::thumbup:



Salvatoreg02 said:


> What's a greenhorn? is that a term they use in the south...
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


 
Not south, that means rookie no matter where you are:whistling2:


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

I don't think I am alone when I say I think this thread has run it's course.


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