# Well how then....???



## redseal (Sep 22, 2010)

Just got a news letter from my state on new 2011 code changes.

*404.2 (C) Switches Controlling Lighting Loads.​*​​​​In all​
occupancies, the grounded circuit conductor is now required​at each switch location.

So... are switch loops and 3 ways now a violation?:blink:

Grounded not grounding folks, that means the noodle.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

redseal said:


> Just got a news letter from my state on new 2011 code changes.
> 
> *404.2 (C) Switches Controlling Lighting Loads.​*In all​
> occupancies, the grounded circuit conductor is now required​at each switch location.
> ...


No. It just means you need the circuit grounded conductor in the switch box. Instead of running 14/3 to a 'dead-end' 3-way, you'll need to run 14/4.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

redseal said:


> So... are switch loops and 3 ways now a violation?:blink:


No, you just need to use a 3-wire cable for switch loops and a 4-wire cable if a 3-way has the switched conductor and hot conductor in the same box.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

I type too slow.


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## redseal (Sep 22, 2010)

480sparky said:


> No. It just means you need the circuit grounded conductor in the switch box. Instead of running 14/3 to a 'dead-end' 3-way, you'll need to run 14/4.


Right, but if induction is the concern, if we just wire nut it off who wins? Im guessing the same  with AFCI breakers told their buddies in the wire biz to do the same...

Total BS


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

redseal said:


> Right, but if induction is the concern, if we just wire nut it off who wins? Im guessing the same  with AFCI breakers told their buddies in the wire biz to do the same...
> 
> Total BS


Why do you say induction might be the concern?

I don't know the reason, but I doubt it's induction.


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## redseal (Sep 22, 2010)

hardworkingstiff said:


> No, you just need to use a 3-wire cable for switch loops and a 4-wire cable if a 3-way has the switched conductor and hot conductor in the same box.


And the point of the 3rd wire on the loop is??.... wire manufactures selling more 14-3 cuz now no one runs 14-3 hr's cuz of the damn afci.... argue it all ya want. it's folks sitting behind a desk determining how to sell more of their product. panel/ breaker makers with $50 afci breakers, or now a huge surge in wire called 14-4!!! They have us hook line and sinker... what a bunch of sheet!!! Like futures market for copper prices. WE HAVE BEEN HAD FOLKS!!!!!!


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## redseal (Sep 22, 2010)

hardworkingstiff said:


> Why do you say induction might be the concern?
> 
> I don't know the reason, but I doubt it's induction.


 
A switch loop only carries the hot conductor. could go through other conduits etc, hence induction


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## redseal (Sep 22, 2010)

If you have a hot conductor following a path in a cable or raceway that is different than the neutral conductor it creates induction. Thats my guess at the code change.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

The requirement comes due to many electronic devices that need constant power to maintain function. In the past, the installers were (illegally) using the grounding conductor. This creates a lot of current on the grounding if there's several devices on the circuit.

By requiring the grounded, the installers somehow believe that the neutral of the circuit will now magically appear in all their installs. Little do they realize.......


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

redseal said:


> A switch loop only carries the hot conductor. could go through other conduits etc, hence induction





redseal said:


> If you have a hot conductor following a path in a cable or raceway that is different than the neutral conductor it creates induction. Thats my guess at the code change.


There is no induction in a "switch loop" even though there is no neutral because as the current is flowing towards the switch, it returns on a different wire in the same cable. The magnetic fields develop in opposite directions thereby canceling each other out.



480sparky said:


> The requirement comes due to many electronic devices that need constant power to maintain function. In the past, the installers were (illegally) using the grounding conductor. This creates a lot of current on the grounding if there's several devices on the circuit.
> 
> By requiring the grounded, the installers somehow believe that the neutral of the circuit will now magically appear in all their installs. Little do they realize.......


That makes a lot more sense.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

I agree with Ken. Many of the manufacturers used the egc for their devices such as occupancy sensors and timers. You will now see that these devices will need a neutral. 

There are a few exceptions to this rule. If you are running conduit then a neutral does not to be run and if the walls are open where a neutral can be added at a later date.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

I agree with Dennis and if we looked at the ROP I am sure it would confirm it.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

redseal said:


> A switch loop only carries the hot conductor. could go through other conduits etc, hence induction


 
Iit's not about induction. Even though the switch loop only carries the hot, it uses two conductors. Currents traveling in one direction in one wire while the other direction in the opposite wire. Their fields cancel the same as running and using a grounded.


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## oliquir (Jan 13, 2011)

in this way nobody will ever use the white wire as ungrounded conductor anymore, that's great i think!


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

oliquir said:


> in this way nobody will ever use the white wire as ungrounded conductor anymore, that's great i think!


 Just remember all the old stuff is grandfathered so HOT white wires will be in switch boxes for a long time..


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Here's the Substantiation portion of the Proposal: (9-95 Log #1160 NEC-P09) 

There are electronic lighting control devices that require a standby current to maintain the ready state and detection capability of the device. This allows immediate switching of the load to the “on” condition.

These devices require standby current when they are in the “off” state, i.e., when no current is flowing to the the load. The typical design of these devices may utilize the grounding conductor for the standby current flow.

In many, if not most commercial installations, a grounded conductor is not provided in the switch box for switches controlling lighting loads. This forces the design of these control devices to utilize the grounding conductor to conduct the standby current. Occupancy sensors are permitted by UL 773A to have a current of up to 0.5 mA on the grounding conductor. In fact, a number of UL Standards permit up to a 0.5 mA ground leakage current as acknowledgment of an operational necessity.

This is allowed because the function of an occupancy sensor requires a low level standby current. The standard permits this current on the grounding conductor because in a typical installation there may be no grounded circuit conductor in the switch box which can be used as the return conductor for the standby current. The leakage current is additive and multiple devices on the same circuit could possibly create a risk. The lack of a grounded conductor in the switch box forces the use of the grounded conductor for the operation of the device. Product designers have no reasonable option but to accommodate the lack of a grounded conductor by relying on the grounding conductor. This not only promotes the risk outlined above, but limits the functionality of the device due to low current level allowed. Products can and are designed to utilize a grounded conductor. However, installers will continue to use the grounding conductor in lieu of the grounded conductor when there is no grounded conductor available in the lighting control switch box, again, promoting the same possible risk.

Sensor manufacturers could distribute the necessary supervisory current through the load for some devices, but this solution has several drawbacks.

Current cannot pass through ballasts and transformers, so this method limits control to incandescent lamps, which are seldom used in commercial buildings due to requirements of the same energy codes that dictate sensor use. Leaking to load also requires sizing the device to the load, and specifying minimum loads to prevent glowing filaments. Finally, having current flowing at the load when the device is presumed to be off could create a similar risk.

Many lighting control devices are installed as a means of realizing significant energy savings associated with the control of lighting circuits. Due to escalating energy costs and the increased recognition and adoption of energy saving codes, it is expected that there will be a substantial increase in the installation of these products. It is becoming less of a design decision or personal preference and more of a legislative requirement. In order to ensure the safe use of these products, the NEC should recognize an installation practice that requires the appropriate circuit conductor to be available for the standby-operation of the control device. An occupancy sensor can be installed in any switch location. It is impractical to expect the customer or installer to anticipate all instances where an occupancy sensor will be installed.

Since revisions to the NEC often results in advances in technology with respect to electrical installations, mandating a neutral in switch boxes will encourage device manufacturers to develop products that need a power supply in order to deliver advances in the control of electricity and reduce improper wiring methods where a grounding conductor is improperly used.

Although the current design of many lighting control devices relies on the grounding conductor for conducting current, adopting this proposed requirement will ensure that future designs will take advantage of the presence of the grounded conductor in the switch box and no longer compel the design of the product or installation practice to use the grounding conductor to conduct the standby current. The availability of a grounded conductor will also promote the design of many new and improved lighting control products.

The proposal allows an exception for installations utilizing some form of raceway instead of cable. The raceway would accommodate the installation of a grounded conductor at a latter time if needed.


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*12-4*



480sparky said:


> No. It just means you need the circuit grounded conductor in the switch box. Instead of running 14/3 to a 'dead-end' 3-way, you'll need to run 14/4.




I haven't seen any 12-4 on the shelves yet. When do think it will start arriving?? 

We might as well add to the copper shortage anyhow.


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## dieselram752 (Jan 23, 2008)

Has anyone priced 14-4 yet
I did yesterday .93 cents a foot


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

dieselram752 said:


> Has anyone priced 14-4 yet
> I did yesterday .93 cents a foot


How much is 14/2 ?

I know it's a little more labor, but for a dead end three way you could just install 2 14/2s. I would make sure I kept the cables as close together for magnetic field cancellation properties.


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*14-2*

0.36 ft at $90 roll


For some reason, I'm thinking this is not code???? I hope it is allowed.


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*Raceway*

Some kind of separate raceway code. 


The pdf code gurus will chime in soon...


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Cletis said:


> Some kind of separate raceway code.
> 
> 
> The pdf code gurus will chime in soon...


300.3(B). Conductors of the Same Circuit. All conductors of
the same circuit and, where used, the grounded conductor
and all equipment grounding conductors and bonding conductors
shall be contained within the same raceway, auxiliary
gutter, cable tray, cablebus assembly, trench, cable, or
cord, unless otherwise permitted in accordance with
300.3(B)(1) through (B)(4).


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

The best advice I can offer is don't use dead end three ways.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

The copper lords getting paid........Gotta love the NEC, more like national corporate executives.


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## desar (Feb 6, 2011)

*desar*

Hi everyone, Mass has addressed this situation with amendments to article 404.2c - one is multiple switch locations controlling the same lighting load provided one or more locations are visable then Only one switch is required to have a grounded conductor. Two- where a switch controls a receptacle load or a lighting load that does not serve a habitable room (ex clothes closet) . three - where automatic control of lighting has been provided or the switch is not within the lit area (ex: exterior light).

By requiring the grounded conductor for the occupancy detectors your not providing an objectionable current path.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

> 300.3(B) Conductors of the Same Circuit. All conductors of the same circuit and, where used, the grounded conductor and all equipment grounding conductors and bonding conductors shall be contained within the same raceway, auxiliary gutter, cable tray, cablebus assembly, trench, cable, or cord, *unless otherwise permitted in accordance with 300.3(B)(1) through (B)(4).*


.............


> (3) Nonferrous Wiring Methods. Conductors in wiring methods with a nonmetallic or other nonmagnetic sheath, where run in different raceways, auxiliary gutters, cable trays, trenches, cables, or cords, shall comply with the provisions of 300.20(B). Conductors in single-conductor Type MI cable with a nonmagnetic sheath shall comply with the provisions of 332.31. Conductors of single-conductor Type MC cable with a nonmagnetic sheath shall comply with the provisions of 330.31, 330.116, and 300.20(B).


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

I was thinking about this thread last night, and it's cool. I haven't seen to many "always on" switches, but they're in residential everywhere, and it makes sense.


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## oldenred (Feb 13, 2011)

yup, they just made things a whole lot more expensive!


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

hardworkingstiff said:


> I know it's a little more labor, but for a dead end three way you could just install 2 14/2s. I would make sure I kept the cables as close together for magnetic field cancellation properties.


The NEC does not specifically prohibit the use of 2 - 2 conductor cables for the wiring between 3-ways and 4-ways.  :thumbsup:
The thing is you need to use nonmetallic boxes, as using metal boxes creates a violation of 300.20.


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## Mr. Sparkle (Jan 27, 2009)

I really hope NJ has enough sense to omit this change.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

manchestersparky said:


> ...
> The thing is you need to use nonmetallic boxes, as using metal boxes creates a violation of 300.20.


Not if you use a connector that is listed for two cables and bring both cables through the same connector.


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## tkb (Jan 21, 2009)

Here is the amendment to the MA 2011 electric code.



> 404.2(C).
> Designate the exception as "Exception No. 1" and insert an additional exception as follows:
> 
> Exception No. 2: Where multiple switch locations control the same lighting load in an interior room or space, a grounded conductor of the lighting circuit shall not be required at each such location if one has been provided at one or more switching points that is (are) visible from most areas within the room including all principal entry points. Where a switch controls a receptacle load or lighting load that does not serve a habitable room or bathroom, or where automatic control of lighting has been provided or the switch is not within the lit area, a grounded circuit conductor shall not be required.


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