# New CW and CE classification



## Chris21 (Nov 25, 2009)

joeyuk said:


> Anyone care to comment on these new classifications and the effect they will have on "A"members ?



We've discussed this in the forum before. If you do a search you may find it. But I'll give you my opinion... honestly I think it's a good idea. I'm in Local 3 in NYC and we have our MIJ division which is in a way similar to the CE's. If an individual union use's it to their and their memberships advantage it will work. The only difference I can see between CE and our MIJ's is that ALL apprentices go through MIJ time. Whereas you could be brought in as a CE. (we also have electricians that come in from non-union shops that come in a "M" classification which is basically "MIJ")

The only problem I have seen in the last few years were larger contractors weren't bidding work where MIJ's would be employed. Then again you can't really blame them. Larger contractors tend to go for the larger work.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Bring em on. I like telling people what to do. It also fun to shape the impressionible. Seriously, not a god complex or anything close, I'm just lazy and appreciate a real strong-back who will get it done or try like a mofo and not give up. Another plus if they're hillbillies, covered with tattoos, or curse like a sailor.

I really like people who want to work. If this program is the way we can get mutually acquainted, then so be it. If they're smart, they'll move up the ladder, and make me look good on the way.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

miller_elex said:


> Bring em on. I like telling people what to do. It also fun to shape the impressionible. Seriously, not a god complex or anything close, I'm just lazy and appreciate a real strong-back who will get it done or try like a mofo and not give up. Another plus if they're hillbillies, covered with tattoos, or curse like a sailor.
> 
> I really like people who want to work. If this program is the way we can get mutually acquainted, then so be it. If they're smart, they'll move up the ladder, and make me look good on the way.



Your crazy.:thumbup::laughing:


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

This is really the first thing to ever come along that has the ability to successfully pirate the best guys from non-union shops. I'm very much in favor or it. Before, a guy who was pretty qualified was stuck working his way up the pay scale, more or less, same as some kid right out of high school. That's a real roadblock.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> This is really the first thing to ever come along that has the ability to successfully pirate the best guys from non-union shops. I'm very much in favor or it. Before, a guy who was pretty qualified was stuck working his way up the pay scale, more or less, same as some kid right out of high school. That's a real roadblock.



That hasn't been the case for a long time now. Well depending on the local anyway. Mine has been "cherry picking" the best talent for years now.

CE/CW could be a very good thing but unfortunately it's getting taken advantage of by unscrupulous contractors in a lot of different places. I don't see CE/CW in my local anytime soon. Our market share is just to high to justify such a thing right now.


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## 134fisherman (Dec 13, 2008)

*reply to slick vic*

What is happing accorrding to our bussnuiss manager is the IO has mandated this to have language in the contract by Labor Day,Will there be a need for apprentices anymore we haven't started a new class in over a year what about journeymen that have worked hard and put in thier time that will now sit at the hall or find a new carrer.as far as biliguall in Chicago you have polish,russian and every other immigrant doing electric work.I know the union needs to do something but is this the awnser,regardless its coming to a local near you on Labor Day
:blink::surrender:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

slickvic277 said:


> CE/CW could be a very good thing but unfortunately it's getting taken advantage of by unscrupulous contractors in a lot of different places. I don't see CE/CW in my local anytime soon. Our market share is just to high to justify such a thing right now.


BINGO and the union and NECA have to figure out a way to keep a handle on this practice.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

brian john said:


> BINGO and the union and NECA have to figure out a way to keep a handle on this practice.



Yeah, the International is getting too cozy with NECA IMO. There looking the other way due to the increase in membership dues. But there forgetting about the 1000's of unemployed IJW across the country.

It's a complex problem with know easy answers. Two things I'm sure of, one is we need a big time culture change and two is, we need a leadership change in the IO.


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## Lone Crapshooter (Nov 8, 2008)

Talked to a signatured contractor the other day and he told me that the CE/CW program in this area is going to be used on projects less than $ 500.000. the contractors generally are not interested in small jobs. 
The way it will work is that they will recruit from the non-signatured contractors and when the job is finished layoff the CE/CW . Then more than likely the guys will not be able to go back to the non-signatured contractors.
From my prospective the CE/CW program is nothing more than union sponsored worker abuse and it creates ill feelings on all sides. 
From the JW side I have been through the apprenticeship program and have 20+ years and I am setting on the bench wile the local is sponsoring a program that is letting someone that has not paid a dime in dues take my work . And to top it all off he is working for 60% and I pay dues for this.
From the CE/CW side I have been working for 6 months in the CE/CW program and I got laid off and there are no other CE/CW jobs in site . Now I got lucky and my non-signatured contractor hired me back. Today a salt from the IBEW shows in our shop and tells us how grate the IBEW is . Now I am going to tell how the IBEW treated me . 
Do you really think that they will organize that shop when they hear the former has got to say . 
The CE/CW program isn't good for the non-signatured man and it is not good for the IBEW member. 
You have got to remember these are my opinions and I am the guy that the organizer told me that I was overqualified to join the IBEW.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Lone Crapshooter said:


> Talked to a signatured contractor the other day and he told me that the CE/CW program in this area is going to be used on projects less than $ 500.000. the contractors generally are not interested in small jobs.
> The way it will work is that they will recruit from the non-signatured contractors and when the job is finished layoff the CE/CW . Then more than likely the guys will not be able to go back to the non-signatured contractors.
> From my prospective the CE/CW program is nothing more than union sponsored worker abuse and it creates ill feelings on all sides.
> From the JW side I have been through the apprenticeship program and have 20+ years and I am setting on the bench wile the local is sponsoring a program that is letting someone that has not paid a dime in dues take my work . And to top it all off he is working for 60% and I pay dues for this.
> ...




What area? What local? I'm confused are you union or not?


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## Lone Crapshooter (Nov 8, 2008)

No I am not a IBEW member but I know several IBEW members.My father had 50 years service with the Carpenters local . In the 70's when I tried to get in the IBEW you had to be a relative or soon to be relative to get in this country club local. This bunch of elitists pride themselves as being one of the premier country club locals in the country. Now they tell me that I am overqualified to join the local and they do not do any industrial work.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

> Lone CrapshooterNo I am not a IBEW member but I know several IBEW members.


O.K.



> My father had 50 years service with the Carpenters local


And this has what, to do with the IBEW, CE/CW classification, or this thread?



> . In the 70's when I tried to get in the IBEW you had to be a relative or soon to be relative to get in this country club local


Yeah, that was a bad part of the culture that proved to be detrimental to the IBEW. In some places it's still a part of the culture but not like it was then.

The 70's is a long time ago. Let go.



> . This bunch of elitists pride themselves as being one of the premier country club locals in the country.


Sounds like a bunch of ****s. Do what many did and move on.



> Now they tell me that I am overqualified to join the local and they do not do any industrial work.



I find this very hard to believe. WHAT LOCAL IS THIS??? If your not a member then what do you have to hide????


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## RGM369 (Jun 18, 2010)

As far as I can tell the CE and CW program is so the contractor can compete with nonunion shops. The ones I've worked with pay dues just like the rest of us and on there ticket it says "A member". The work I've seen them do is good work and some are better than some of the JW's (not all) and I feel this will make the lazy JW and apprentice either start producing or ride the books like he wants to do(not all JW'S and apprentice are this way). Some of the CE'S & CW's want to get in the apprenticeship,some have tested and got in as a 3rd and 4th year apprentice. I say we see what they can help us do after all this is a "BROTHERHOOD". If this helps get more back to work then I'm all for it.:thumbup:


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## Sawyer (Aug 21, 2010)

We've had a "B" program in our local for a long time, it's now the CW/CE program.

It's used, IMO, for bad purposes.

There was a private school that had a building built not long ago, they wanted to go non-union for the electrical part, I am not sure why because all the other trades were union and the IBEW is far from the highest rate anymore.

So the union did it as a CW/CE job. That meant that the foremen on the job made less in the envelope that a 3rd year "A" apprentice. They made considerably less in the package (I believe they don't get an annuity either).

This isn't the first time that the hall has allowed jobs to be done at "B" rate and I doubt it's the last. To many of us, it seems like a $30/hr concession in one big shot. Along with the 15% decrease in pay at the refinery, everything looks downhill.

I guess it's time to shelf the book and go out on my own, huh? I really can't afford a $30/hr pay cut.


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## danhasenauer (Jun 10, 2009)

RGM369 said:


> As far as I can tell the CE and CW program is so the contractor can compete with nonunion shops. The ones I've worked with pay dues just like the rest of us and on there ticket it says "A member". The work I've seen them do is good work and some are better than some of the JW's (not all) and I feel this will make the lazy JW and apprentice either start producing or ride the books like he wants to do(not all JW'S and apprentice are this way). Some of the CE'S & CW's want to get in the apprenticeship,some have tested and got in as a 3rd and 4th year apprentice. I say we see what they can help us do after all this is a "BROTHERHOOD". If this helps get more back to work then I'm all for it.:thumbup:


Exactly, it is about market recovery and winning jobs in areas where we have not been competitive in years (residential, light commercial) Many former JW's laid off for far too long are back in as CE-3's. I'd rather work for a little less per hour than starve. Nobody works if we lose every bid to a non-signatory contractor with lower costs.


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## User14727 (Sep 2, 2010)

*Ce3*

I have been a CE3 for a year almost, been working as one for about 6 months. I came from a non-union aprenticeship with 6 years experience before i joined the local. 

The problem i see with the CE program is that it will never go away. From what i understand the CE program was forced on us with no local vote or anything. These contractors will never bid on the big jobs because they can manhandle the CE's more than a JW. On my job the JW's are the "troublemakers" the CE's just do what they are told. We have had to call the hall several times and thanks to the "economic times" we are told to be happy that we have a job because there are 100 guys waiting for us to get laid off. 

The other thing i see a problem with is that there is no testing to see if a guy really is a Competent Electrician. We have CE3's which i assume are supposed to be just below a JW's experience and skill who can't run pipe, wire emergency lights or do proper pipe fill. THey are getting the same as the guy like me who has his gov't j-card and went through school.

The third big thing i don't like about CE's is they are not tied to the union. They don't believe in it. Partly because the JW's treat them like dirt and partly because they haven't been through the ranks and school, they don't owe anything to the union. I always hear, " i can go get a non-union job if i get laid-off. 

Now they are talking about letting JW working as CE's. I think this will be voted on by the local at least. It's good for a while and they have a clause to end it within 30 days but the contractors will do the same thing as with the CE's. THey will say " why should i bid on normal jobs and pay JW pay and fringe when i can bid a market recovery job and cut his fringe out". When we go to stop it they will just come back at us for pay reduction and what not.

I dont think CE's are the answer. I think in my local at least we should find out how to get these contractors to buy into labor saving products ie caddy products, ramsets etc. We have to reduce their labor burden some other way than giving up what so many fought for. 

BTW i am planning on going for my Union JW just as soon as they can get some guys working. Probably sounds funny for a CE to be ragging on CE's.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

aguywithfeet said:


> BTW i am planning on going for my Union JW just as soon as they can get some guys working. Probably sounds funny for a CE to be ragging on CE's.


If the program got some hard work out of you and gave you the opportunity to move on up the ladder, then I think it has done what it was intended to do. Note that the less capable still have a job and intend to stay where they are.


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## wireman5 (Jul 27, 2010)

*New CE & CW*

Having been in the trade for over 30 years I have seen many knee jerk methods fall flat. This is just one more to add to the list. The new classifications are just another name for cheap labor that for the most part only slow down the job. Most often the mechanics have to go back and fix most of what the folks with little training and or experience have put in. The contractors strongly believe paying a guy less is going to add to their profit margin. Nothing could be further from the truth. Why would someone working for a cheaper rate do as much as a worker who is making full rate on the same job? Whats the difference with just having apprentices do jobs by themselves? This claasification gig is total nonsense and in my opinion divides the membership even further. 

After reading some of the previous posts it is sickening to see how some are supportive of it just to make themselves look good and let them climb the ladder. Our Founders are rolling over in their graves with that bonehead statement. That is not what is in the least bit a protocol for our brotherhood. We need to make each other look good and better things will happen for our Union. Do you get it shop rocket, thats what being a Union Man is!


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Thanks for the reply WM5. I don't care if you call me shop rocket. Get all militant and fired up, I am not likely to get as excited as yourself. 

I'll bet you believe the nonsense that we are all equal. Some are more equal than others. It doesn't matter who you are, where you came from, if you are one of the more equal electricians, then you should have a welcome place in the 'brotherhood.'

I work in a place that we have the majority of the marketshare. And the great majority of that majority, are shop rockets. It works out very well for all involved.

Speculate however you like about founders rolling over in their graves. For one, they were linemen. Ask a lineman how they feel about us in their union sometime. You are sure to gain an earful of scorn for the building trades.

For number two, seeing as you have been in the trade for thirty plus years, WTF are you retired? Things have changed since your days in the sun. Have you seen what marketshare is nationwide? Obviously your mentality is obsolete, as it has served all of us electricians so well.

I am all about advancing and bettering the lives of electricians. It just happens to be that the IBEW feels the same way. Its not fair to suppress non-union electricians who are idealistic and talented from gaining a way in, just so you Mr. Grouch can remain entitled to whatever it is that you feel should be yours without competition.

For the record, I am no secret closet republican or tea-party wacko, but am a progressive democrat.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

> The problem i see with the CE program is that it will never go away. From what i understand the CE program was forced on us with no local vote or anything. These contractors will never bid on the big jobs because they can manhandle the CE's more than a JW. On my job the JW's are the "troublemakers" the CE's just do what they are told. We have had to call the hall several times and thanks to the "economic times" we are told to be happy that we have a job because there are 100 guys waiting for us to get laid off.


So you have a job and feel slighted HOW? 
You think the guys calling the hall are somehow the good guys? 



> The other thing i see a problem with is that there is no testing to see if a guy really is a Competent Electrician. We have CE3's which i assume are supposed to be just below a JW's experience and skill who can't run pipe, wire emergency lights or do proper pipe fill. THey are getting the same as the guy like me who has his gov't j-card and went through school.


Welcome to the real world.
Do they have a local license?
I never went to a formal apprenticeship.
I know many an electrician that is no good at pipe and knowledge wise I'd bet they would bury you, being good at pipe does not mean you are a top notch electrician.



> The third big thing i don't like about CE's is they are not tied to the union. They don't believe in it. Partly because the JW's treat them like dirt and partly because they haven't been through the ranks and school, they don't owe anything to the union. I always hear, " i can go get a non-union job if i get laid-off.


SO?



> Now they are talking about letting JW working as CE's. I think this will be voted on by the local at least. It's good for a while and they have a clause to end it within 30 days but the contractors will do the same thing as with the CE's. THey will say " why should i bid on normal jobs and pay JW pay and fringe when i can bid a market recovery job and cut his fringe out". When we go to stop it they will just come back at us for pay reduction and what not.


Damn shame those contractors SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED to bid on the jobs out for bid, but should be made to bid on jobs that do not exist.

Just for the record Business 101, if there is a job out for bid in this market, contractors of every sort are lining up to bid it, many contractors are struggling also.



> I dont think CE's are the answer. I think in my local at least we should find out how to get these contractors to buy into labor saving products ie caddy products, ramsets etc. We have to reduce their labor burden some other way than giving up what so many fought for.


Yeah because contractors are stupid and do not know about caddy products and are not looking to save labor with new products.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Lone Crapshooter said:


> Talked to a signatured contractor the other day and he told me that the CE/CW program in this area is going to be used on projects less than $ 500.000. the contractors generally are not interested in small jobs.
> The way it will work is that they will recruit from the non-signatured contractors and when the job is finished layoff the CE/CW . Then more than likely the guys will not be able to go back to the non-signatured contractors.
> From my prospective the CE/CW program is nothing more than union sponsored worker abuse and it creates ill feelings on all sides.
> From the JW side I have been through the apprenticeship program and have 20+ years and I am setting on the bench wile the local is sponsoring a program that is letting someone that has not paid a dime in dues take my work . And to top it all off he is working for 60% and I pay dues for this.
> ...


Sounds like you are really shooting some crap here.:laughing:

You make is sound like this program is made to screw everyone. The program was started well before the current down cycle in construction. They are attempting to keep it alive to provide an opportunity for those who otherwise had no way to get in except for the JATC route. Maybe this is where you were told that you were over qualified. The CE/ CW program is for people like you that are in the trade and are working for decent wages but spend most of it on health insurance and have no retirement plan.
It is tough to tell a guy that is making $25 an hour that he has to start as a first year making $12 or $15 an hour and advance to $35 or $40 per hour over 5 years.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

jrannis said:


> Sounds like you are really shooting some crap here.:laughing:
> 
> You make is sound like this program is made to screw everyone. The program was started well before the current down cycle in construction. They are attempting to keep it alive to provide an opportunity for those who otherwise had no way to get in except for the JATC route. Maybe this is where you were told that you were over qualified. The CE/ CW program is for people like you that are in the trade and are working for decent wages but spend most of it on health insurance and have no retirement plan.
> It is tough to tell a guy that is making $25 an hour that he has to start as a first year making $12 or $15 an hour and advance to $35 or $40 per hour over 5 years.


And it should, depending on the market, give the contractors an added edge against open shops in bidding certain projects.


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## wireman5 (Jul 27, 2010)

miller, its obvious that you have been brainwashed big time and with your comments about others in your area "if correct" they are as well. A Union, club or any association is only as good as it members.

For the record, I am 52 years old and have held the positions of Superintendent, General Foreman, Sub Foreman, Project Manager as well as the most important a mechanic. 

Here in my area we have had residential guys placed on many jobs as well as apprentices out of ratio with the mind set of getting the project done with less labor costs. What happens for the most part on these projects is training these guys and slowing down the mechanics or worse having to go back to make repairs and or modifications. Make no mistake, we have to do some training while on the job; however, there is a limit as to how much can be spent on this lost time when looking at the budget for the job as well as gettting the job done on time. 

I have had a few Residential Wireman who are top notch Electricians on the job that quit the IBEW to work non union where they make more. We also educate many more through the program that quit and go off to work for other firms as well on our dime and with our methodologies. These new classifications short & sweet just extend the term as being an apprentice & divide the membership. Not good........


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

wireman5 said:


> miller, its obvious that you have been brainwashed big time and with your comments about others in your area "if correct" they are as well. A Union, club or any association is only as good as it members.
> 
> For the record, I am 52 years old and have held the positions of Superintendent, General Foreman, Sub Foreman, Project Manager as well as the most important a mechanic.
> 
> ...


I just typed out this big long response to that which included my own experience as a ce/cw before I got my contractors license, then I thought ... Fuc*k it, why bother.

Rock on union bretheren, may there be enough work we can continue this debate for ages.

and the Fuc*ing ground goes down BTW!!


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

wireman5 said:


> . These new classifications short & sweet just extend the term as being an apprentice & divide the membership. Not good........


There are some guys that will go back and forth with the pay and ability to work.

The Not good depends on how the union and NECA handle this classification.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

wireman5 said:


> miller, its obvious that you have been brainwashed big time and with your comments about others in your area "if correct" they are as well. A Union, club or any association is only as good as it members.
> 
> I have had a few Residential Wireman who are top notch Electricians on the job that quit the IBEW to work non union where they make more.....


Our members here care about the business. I can't understand how this is not good.

On the residential note. Here it is a lost cause. The non-union residential men make alot more on the check. They do small TI's from time to time as well. Those guys don't get much in the way of pipe and power distribution experience, but they are the pool from which the CE program will draw. This is negative how? The men from the large non-union commericial contractors are rolled directly onto the end of Book 1.

The real problem we have here is big non-union EC's from neighboring states who come into town, get big jobs, and take guys from what would be the CE labor pool, and put them to work for less than half on the check what a JW makes, with no benefits. Whats your answer to this? Economic natural selection?

P.S. You sound all union gung-ho, but I have not heard of any superintendint / PM who was not a company man through and through.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

> P.S. You sound all union gung-ho, but I have not heard of any superintendint / PM who was not a company man through and through.




Amen to that.


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## Lone Crapshooter (Nov 8, 2008)

There are several posting on Facebook about the CE / CW program.
It looks like about 20% for and 80% against.

I


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## circuit-machine (Sep 10, 2010)

Look fellas. I am a 3rd year apprentice, and will definitely appreciate breaking out. Picture this scenerio though. You are some guy. You decide one day that you want to be an electrician. Your buddy's dad has a non-union shop. You have never even heard of the friggin union. You bust your ass for four years and become a journeyman wireman. Your are a happy camper because you have gained respect and feel accomplished. Then your shop gets organized in. Then you got some guys you have never met before telling you that you AREN'T a journeyman, you are a CE because you don't know about control work or whatever. Then you got some nut sack on the job talking down to you because you aren't in the program he wants you to be in, as if you had a choice. Bam. One more anti-union electrician created. We got to be a little more welcoming if we want market share.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

circuit-machine said:


> Look fellas. I am a 3rd year apprentice, and will definitely appreciate breaking out. Picture this scenerio though. You are some guy. You decide one day that you want to be an electrician. Your buddy's dad has a non-union shop. You have never even heard of the friggin union. You bust your ass for four years and become a journeyman wireman. Your are a happy camper because you have gained respect and feel accomplished. Then your shop gets organized in. Then you got some guys you have never met before telling you that you AREN'T a journeyman, you are a CE because you don't know about control work or whatever. Then you got some nut sack on the job talking down to you because you aren't in the program he wants you to be in, as if you had a choice. Bam. One more anti-union electrician created. We got to be a little more welcoming if we want market share.


Nicely put!


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

circuit-machine said:


> Look fellas. Then you got some nut sack on the job talking down to you because you aren't in the program he wants you to be in, as if you had a choice.


The attitudes change with the geographic location and the company culture.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

miller_elex said:


> The attitudes change with the geographic location and the company culture.


even with in generational gaps within the same local


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

miller_elex said:


> The attitudes change with the geographic location and the company ________ _____________ culture.


 
and the company *AND UNION* culture


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## User14727 (Sep 2, 2010)

brian john said:


> So you have a job and feel slighted HOW?
> You think the guys calling the hall are somehow the good guys?


I feel slighted because i could have kept working at a non-union company and not had so many near death experiences. The hall , from what i understand is supposed to be our go between with the contractor. If i can't get safety concerns addressed then the hall is supposed to chime in. Unless i misunderstood.




brian john said:


> Welcome to the real world.
> Do they have a local license?
> I never went to a formal apprenticeship.
> I know many an electrician that is no good at pipe and knowledge wise I'd bet they would bury you, being good at pipe does not mean you are a top notch electrician.


I don't need to be told i'm not the best, nor are you, I know there are specific areas that everyone excels in. Foremen should take that in account, however there should be a baseline for certain classifications. Non-union it is figured out in the first few days what your worth and then the pay is adjusted through firings or if the guy agrees to work for less. The union does not have this option, realistically. So if we are going to say a guy is worth x dollars and send him out we should damn well be sure he is worth that or it makes us look like schmucks. Book knowledge is nice in a foreman, a worker need to be able to run pipe,pull wire and terminate devices. I didn't think that would be a point of contention.




brian john said:


> SO?


So!? I thought this was a brotherhood that we want to grow bigger. I agree with circuit-machine these attitude are turning guys anti-union.




brian john said:


> Damn shame those contractors SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED to bid on the jobs out for bid, but should be made to bid on jobs that do not exist.
> 
> Just for the record Business 101, if there is a job out for bid in this market, contractors of every sort are lining up to bid it, many contractors are struggling also.


The succesful contractors are not cutting out the well paid employees, at least here in florida, from what i have seen. They are relying on their highly paid(for non-union) skilled electricians and labor saving items. I think that to simply say that contractors have to be able to cut wages to compete is simplistic, there are several others ways for them to compete, but we will have to work with them.




brian john said:


> Yeah because contractors are stupid and do not know about caddy products and are not looking to save labor with new products.


AGREED!


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

aguywithfeet said:


> I feel slighted because i
> AGREED!


 
Good points!


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## circuit-machine (Sep 10, 2010)

About being competetive. Our goal is more market share so we can get higher wages. The majority of the market IS residential. We bring in a bunch of journeyman who are fast and have lots of tricks and techniques for roping houses, and then when they are on the big jobs they get some help with relays, and motor controls, and VFDs, etc... Right? What is wrong with that? They should get paid regular journeyman wages. 
Any competetiveness we might have gained by paying them low wages, is blown by lowering jobsite morale. We have to be united.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

What is the JW wage in Oklahoma where you are,

and what is the CE wage?

whats the market-share, and is it the prevailing wage? Is PW lower than JW because you don't have 50%?


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## circuit-machine (Sep 10, 2010)

*market share etc.*

well. we have about 11% market share. PW is the union JW rate on federal jobs around here. A JW makes 26.50 and a CE3 makes about 21 (I think). If not 21, right at it. Anywho... the diff is considerable. I have heard most non-union residential guys are making 19 or 20.


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## circuit-machine (Sep 10, 2010)

*residential wage*

here we do have a residential contract. i think that is ok. we can say residential work pays less than commercial. I just don't like saying this jw is worth less than that one...


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## ousoonerfan3 (Jun 29, 2008)

According to the BA, the market share is in the low 30s, not 11%.


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## circuit-machine (Sep 10, 2010)

*market share*

ya. if thats what joe says then it probably is so. i know that also fluctuates. my second year teach said 11%. that was 7 or 8 months ago though.


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## WIREDOG (May 27, 2007)

i started in my local as a cw-4 and after the evaluation i came out a ce-6. Since then I thought it wise to get into the apprenticeship for many reasons. Where I live there are some good ones but for the most part they are unskilled and prefer to stick to their open shop ways, but most leave the local after a layoff. It benifits some, but I think it benifits the entire local more to not have the classification and make everyone go through the apprenticeship.


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## User14727 (Sep 2, 2010)

I agree with wiredog. How many ce and cw classifications does your local have?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

ousoonerfan3 said:


> According to the BA, the market share is in the low 30s, not 11%.


According to my BA, work is picking up and everything is gonna be alright


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

HackWork said:


> According to my BA, work is picking up and everything is gonna be alright


Yeah Obama tell him that?


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

brian john said:


> Yeah Obama tell him that?


Obama, Yo-Mama


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

HackWork said:


> According to my BA, work is picking up and everything is gonna be alright


 
Must be part of the BA oath or something like that.


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## wireman5 (Jul 27, 2010)

Well you met one now.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

We have a tiny local with a really high market share. I don't think the CW/CE classification will significantly affect us. Could possibly snag a couple of the younger journeyman from the non-union shops that have been holding out for years now.


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