# While exiting the storeroom



## stiffneck (Nov 8, 2015)

Myself, co-worker and storeroom clerk walked from isle towards front desk. Unknowing to me, the clerk reach up to push a fan plug back into a receptacle. That’s when we heard pop, crackle, sizzle. Did a 180 and saw sparks fly from box. The box is about 6ft above floor attached to I beam. So we located the circuit and changed out both recepticles. Unfortunately, It’s circuit #19, a 30amp from a Zinco panel. At a later date, I hope to get that changed out. Or, at least move 12 gauge branch circuit to a 20amp breaker. Normally would have called inside guys, however storeroom had receptacles and plug we don’t carry on field trucks. Was quick change out, getting new panel won’t be.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

Cha Ching!


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## stiffneck (Nov 8, 2015)

On a good note, dozens of Federal Pacific panels on Concourses A and C have been changed out.


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

never seen a receptacle where the front has come away from the back. Is that common?


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## stiffneck (Nov 8, 2015)

I can't say it's common, but I've replaced similar instances here where receptacles have just fallen apart. In forgotten places in Terminal-1, two prong receptacles from the 1950's and outlining buildings from 1940's are still around.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Bummer, but why was a convenience receptacle ever put on a 30 amp circuit?


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Are those resi grade receptacles? They sure look it.

I've never seen a commercial Zinsco panel, and would be extremely horrified if I ever did.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

MDShunk said:


> Bummer, but why was a convenience receptacle ever put on a 30 amp circuit?


They needed the extra power, obviously. :biggrin:


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## stiffneck (Nov 8, 2015)

This is a 5,000 acre property that is privately owned by the Ci-tay of St. Louis. Located in St. Louis county, run like Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.
To add to the fun, St. Louis Ci-tay is it's own county separate from and at times at war with St. Louis county, since before aircraft/airports were invented.
This warehouse has 4 different builds to it, and was bought by airport from whoever at some point. No rime or reason for what you're seeing.
Also, this duplex has a _yellow_ wire for hot and white wire for ground.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

gpop said:


> never seen a receptacle where the front has come away from the back. Is that common?


Not that uncommon. **** resi grade receptacles that have been bashed with cords plugged in seems to do it. I've replaced quite a few.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

gpop said:


> never seen a receptacle where the front has come away from the back. Is that common?





Going_Commando said:


> Not that uncommon. **** resi grade receptacles that have been bashed with cords plugged in seems to do it. I've replaced quite a few.


I see this now and then, but I am not sure I remember seeing it before maybe five years ago.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

It's time for your mactip of the day!

Sometimes when stored on a vehicle outside of the shipping box, devices like receptacles and switches just get tossed together in a bin or drawer and bounce around for a month or two and then they get all those black marks on the face of them that are a real pain to remove.

Ok , so this is not a tip on how to properly stock nor how to remove the black markings on the face of devices. Nope. It's a tip on how *not *to remove the black markings on the devices- *Don't use Goof Off* or some other really good stain remover liquids. Don't use them on plastic receptacle outlets most important of all. When a bit of that liquid gets rubbed onto the side of the colored device front (this applies to resi grade outlets only, so if you install Hubble , move along we are not speaking to your crowd....) the glue holding the front half of the device to the back half starts dissolving and might not happen right there and then , but the front is going to come off the back half on that outlet, sure as shootin.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

macmikeman said:


> ,,,) the glue holding the front half of the device to the back half starts dissolving and might not happen right there and then , but the front is going to come off the back half on that outlet, sure as shootin.


20-dollar PayPal payment from me to the guy that finds a factory "glued" receptacle. Screwed, riveted, clipped, latched, and most commonly- ultrasonic welded. Never glued. Sorry, Mac, you're way off the mark this time.


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## Sblk55 (Sep 8, 2017)

Did you change the cover? That is the reason you now have to use the covers that attach with additional screws and nuts.


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## Gnome (Dec 25, 2013)

gpop said:


> never seen a receptacle where the front has come away from the back. Is that common?



Half of our plant is 50 years old; I replace a couple receptacles a month because the front has come off or the back has punched out. Looks like we are hitting the lifespan of those brown receptacles around here.


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

If that's typical of the wiring in that facility, looks like you got some job security. 

Those covers are outdated (need 3 screws per strap now) , the receps. don't look like commercial grade (look like 15a.residential), and I don't see a grounding pig tail to the box. How many more are on 30a. brkrs.? How big is that fan? You didn't put that back on the 30a. ckt., did you?


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## Norcal (Mar 22, 2007)

MTW said:


> Are those resi grade receptacles? They sure look it.
> 
> I've never seen a commercial Zinsco panel, and would be extremely horrified if I ever did.





Zinsco bolt on are not that bad just super expensive for replacement breakers, but a plug in style like in the photo is pure garbage, and it's plug in because bolt on panels do not accept twin breakers.


When it comes to Zinsco products, some things just need to die.


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## catsparky1 (Sep 24, 2013)

We got those here lots and lots of them and some zinsco gear . Zinsco commercial stuff is not that bad just jenky . I was down in a basement this week working on 1200 amp Zinsco gear . It is old and dangerous but they keep chugging along .


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

The thing about Zinsco switchgear and bigger MDP's is that I've never seen two alike. I swear they must have custom engineered each one for the job. 

Some years back I posted a picture of a 200-amp Zinsco panel that must have been 4 feet wide. Regular plug on breakers in the middle and then the gutter space beside each breaker had a snap switch for each circuit. This was literally a "lighting panel". It was for a very large appliance store, and all the lighting circuits could be shut off with the snap switch, presumably to save wear and tear on the breakers. (This appliance store was once a Zinsco dealer back in the day when appliance stores were called "electric shops") I've never seen a panel like it before, and don't expect I ever will again.


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## catsparky1 (Sep 24, 2013)

MDShunk said:


> The thing about Zinsco switchgear and bigger MDP's is that I've never seen two alike. I swear they must have custom engineered each one for the job.
> 
> Some years back I posted a picture of a 200-amp Zinsco panel that must have been 4 feet wide. Regular plug on breakers in the middle and then the gutter space beside each breaker had a snap switch for each circuit. This was literally a "lighting panel". It was for a very large appliance store, and all the lighting circuits could be shut off with the snap switch, presumably to save wear and tear on the breakers. (This appliance store was once a Zinsco dealer back in the day when appliance stores were called "electric shops") I've never seen a panel like it before, and don't expect I ever will again.


In the central valley of CA lots of Zinsco gear MDPs too and so far all about the same . The MDPs are scary when all opened up for a pull Those 3 inch buss bars in the middle are like a snake just waiting to strike . The place I was at has 6 of those MDPs and two sets of 1200 gear . It is food manufacturing and they add something big every year . This year is cooling . rip out all the old cooling and in with the new . 125 amp bolt ons are pricey . They have some plans for next year and most of that zinsco might go in the trash .


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## Norcal (Mar 22, 2007)

Zinsco was very popular in 1960's era nursing homes, they were cheap so they were used just like tract homes, & multi-family dwellings.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Norcal said:


> Zinsco was very popular in 1960's era nursing homes, they were cheap so they were used just like tract homes, & multi-family dwellings.


From 20+ years of forum crawling, I've found they were much more popular, in general, on the west coast than the east coast. I think they were a west coast company, if memory serves. They're sort of a unicorn on the east coast. Probably like a west coast guy seldom sees a Trumbull panel.


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## Norcal (Mar 22, 2007)

They were a Los Angeles based company prior to GTE buying them in 1973 and renaming them Sylvania, the use of Zinsco products does seem to be regional though, just like FPE is not common locally either, but Zinsco/Sylvania used FPE breakers when they were larger then 225A, or over 240V.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Norcal said:


> , but Zinsco/Sylvania used FPE breakers when they were larger then 225A, or over 240V.


Old larger molded case breakers get a little weird. An”F” frame breaker could have about a half dozen manufacturers name on it. I sometimes wonder if that design was appropriated for the war effort.


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## Lone Crapshooter (Nov 8, 2008)

When the Rating Bureau was doing inspections they would automatically turn a job down if it was Zinsco.

LC


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> 20-dollar PayPal payment from me to the guy that finds a factory "glued" receptacle. Screwed, riveted, clipped, latched, and most commonly- ultrasonic welded. Never glued. Sorry, Mac, you're way off the mark this time.




Sorry I took so long to reply to this. I have two reasons for my delay. One is because I couldn't find my &*($$!! can of Goof- Off even though I see it around all the damn time, when I needed it I couldn't find the sucker till just now I practically tripped over it......... 
Second reason is because I keep seeing this all the freaking time...









And the pages of this website are excruciatingly slow for the last two or three weeks now to load, I'm sure there is a virus or imposed slowdown or something or another. (wanna borrow my can of goof off? I found it you know...) Maybe squirt some in the hard drive of the server to remove some of that sticky glue. 

Anyway, here is a bunch of pictures I just took a while ago after squirting a bunch of Goof Off over a brand new TR duplex white residential grade receptacle outlet- Leviton I believe it was. Maybe this isn''t glue, it sure looks like glue to me though. I'm all ears why you see black on the white side of the face and white stuck to the black side of the rear of the outlet. Whatever it is , it's micro applied and the halves are barely held together in addition by two mini gap clamps that grab a post on the other half. They are located in the center at each side of the rear part of the outlet half. There is no captive hinges or any other thing resembling a snap in place holder. I say it's a dab of cement holding the 2 halves. You decide........
































































Total of 4 hours lapsed between application of spray and pulling apart without a whole lot of struggle. Didn't just fall apart this time though, but I have had em do that before after cleaning them......... Maybe it isn't glued......... Maybe..


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

That's ultrasonically welded, Mikey. How do I know this? Because MTW is always right.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

MDShunk said:


> From 20+ years of forum crawling, I've found they were much more popular, in general, on the west coast than the east coast. I think they were a west coast company, if memory serves. They're sort of a unicorn on the east coast. Probably like a west coast guy seldom sees a Trumbull panel.



I've never seen a Zinsco panel in my area, but have seen them in my travels. Even FPE is not that common in my area as GE and Bryant were much more popular during FPE's heyday, since they were manufactured locally.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

MTW said:


> That's ultrasonically welded, Mikey. How do I know this? Because MTW is always right.


What ever it is , it doesn't like solvents much. Mactip is exonerated!


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## cuba_pete (Dec 8, 2011)

MDShunk said:


> Bummer, but why was a convenience receptacle ever put on a 30 amp circuit?



Cletus said 15+15 for a 30A branch...


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Yeah I've replaced like a **** load of receps that split apart, it happens. 







MDShunk said:


> Bummer, but why was a convenience receptacle ever put on a 30 amp circuit?



Probably cause no 50 amp single poles where available at the moment


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## stiffneck (Nov 8, 2015)

Sblk55 said:


> Did you change the cover? That is the reason you now have to use the covers that attach with additional screws and nuts.



Nope, reuse the same one, the ones in stock are the same.


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## stiffneck (Nov 8, 2015)

joebanana said:


> If that's typical of the wiring in that facility, looks like you got some job security.
> 
> Those covers are outdated (need 3 screws per strap now) , the receps. don't look like commercial grade (look like 15a.residential), and I don't see a grounding pig tail to the box. How many more are on 30a. brkrs.? How big is that fan? You didn't put that back on the 30a. ckt., did you?



At one time, this would have been the tip of the iceberg. However, it's getting better, but slowly. As far as who did this, it varies. My electric shop certainly did these back in the day, so did tenants, other departments doing there own thing and contractors.

Yes I put it right back the way I found it. I could open that panel and find a hornets nest of more issues. My goal is to write up a "capital improvement safety request". This will get money for a new panel and the rest will follow. Didn't look at nameplate of fan, but most likely less than 5amp running current.


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## stiffneck (Nov 8, 2015)

MTW said:


> I've never seen a Zinsco panel in my area, but have seen them in my travels. Even FPE is not that common in my area as GE and Bryant were much more popular during FPE's heyday, since they were manufactured locally.



Back in the 1990's, I was told that Federal Pacific bought Frank Adams which was manufactured here in St. Louis. At that point some FPE might have been built here. St. Louis is/was loaded with FPE, Zinsco and FA. When I worked downtown 1994-95, Municipal Court had Frank Adams switch gear still in use along with some 250V DC.


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## Spark Master (Jul 3, 2012)

Did you ever notice the newer 1900 covers have holes for the receptacle top & bottom....


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Spark Master said:


> Did you ever notice the newer 1900 covers have holes for the receptacle top & bottom....



Yea, since about like 1990 newer.............


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## Spark Master (Jul 3, 2012)

macmikeman said:


> Yea, since about like 1990 newer.............


I'm thinking late 1990s. or my supply house had 10 zillion on the older covers.


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