# How it used to be



## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

There are no written rules.

I realize that is a trite and completely unhelpful answer but...

What you ought to do is pay attention to the older guys, lend them a hand when you can. You can learn a lot by just being pleasant and available.

If there is anything specific - just ask.

And welcome to the site. Enjoy.


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

Crackheads ruined the trades. I think that's what they are talking about. Lol. Welcome to the site


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

BrokenVisitor said:


> I've just turned out of my time and I often hear from the older members that things aren't how they used to be and they seem to take offense at certain things that are said or done. Is there some sort of code of conduct that used to be in effect "back in the day"? I would just like to know if there were written rules at to how to "work like gentlemen".


I think the term is "work ethics" Things like taking pride in your work. showing up for work on time, pulling your share of the load etc. etc. Some of us were raised with the notion that you respected adults, old people, and those in authority. If you didn't, you ran the chance of getting your seat heated!!:yes::yes:


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Has any generation ever been especially thrilled with the generation that is following them? Probably never in history.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

While I'm sure there are concrete examples those guys could cite that have changed, maybe for the worse, I also think that everyone glamorizes their memories of the past more than they realize. 

-John


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

The good old days of blatant racism, sexism, child labor, poisoning the planet ... great times. :laughing:


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

BrokenVisitor said:


> "work like gentlemen".


That sounds kinda dumb :laughing:



BBQ said:


> The good old days of blatant racism, sexism, child labor, poisoning the planet ... great times.


:laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> That sounds kinda dumb :laughing:
> 
> 
> 
> :laughing::laughing::laughing:


"Excuse me sir, could you hand me another 10' stick of Emt?" "Thank you sir, I really appreciate it!" etc. etc.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Jlarson said:


> That sounds kinda dumb :laughing:


It is a common phrase amongst the skill trades in this area. Basically it means don't work like a common laborer. Spend the time and effort to make the conditions you are working around more pleasant and appealing, as well as less arduous. Better conditions, better work, more production.

As an example, you can work with flashlights in the rain or spend a moment to set up a tarp and a proper work light.


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## stuiec (Sep 25, 2010)

eejack said:


> It is a common phrase amongst the skill trades in this area. Basically it means don't work like a common laborer. Spend the time and effort to make the conditions you are working around more pleasant and appealing, as well as less arduous. Better conditions, better work, more production.
> 
> As an example, you can work with flashlights in the rain or spend a moment to set up a tarp and a proper work light.


and a tea cart for these


View attachment 19027



I_ hate_ it when they`re on the floor, I keep thinking someone`ll step on them any second.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Our trade used to be more specialized and respected.. now anyone who can push a shopping cart _thinks_ he can do electrical work...


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## BrokenVisitor (Nov 10, 2012)

Thanks for the replies everyone. I figured there was no written code of ethics or behavior but I also thought it couldn't hurt to ask.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

B4T said:


> Our trade used to be more specialized and respected.. now anyone who can push a shopping cart _thinks_ he can do electrical work...


I could say the same thing about EC's taking on the work I do and then botching it, sometimes we get the work after they were there, other times the customer lives with a substandard job.

BUT I WON'T GO THERE.

As I know many EC's are struggling to make it.


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## chewy (May 9, 2010)

I got told by an ex IBEW guy here to "Hey asshole, pull like a gentleman will ya?" when we were pulling a mains cable in from the bosses house down to his new barn...


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

BrokenVisitor said:


> I've just turned out of my time and I often hear from the older members that things aren't how they used to be and they seem to take offense at certain things that are said or done. Is there some sort of code of conduct that used to be in effect "back in the day"? I would just like to know if there were written rules at to how to "work like gentlemen".


 
you lot made your bed

so now sleep in & be happy

don't come crawling to the 'net lookin' for sympathy, yesterday, or some entitled tommorrow

~CS~


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## BrokenVisitor (Nov 10, 2012)

chicken steve said:


> you lot made your bed
> 
> so now sleep in & be happy
> 
> ...


I'm sorry that you're so bitter Steve that you feel the need to lash out. I simply had a question on the way things used to be. I was not trying to crawl to the net for sympathy. I am actually quite proud that I have completed 8000 hours of on the job training and 5 years of school to be a well qualified individual. I just asked a question please do not project your anger onto me or my question or my brothers. I hope you can learn to let go of your anger because that will eat you up.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

BrokenVisitor said:


> I just asked a question please do not project your anger onto me or my question or my brothers.


How many brothers you got? I've only got 3 :laughing::laughing::lol::lol:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BrokenVisitor said:


> I'm sorry that you're so bitter Steve that you feel the need to lash out.


Steve is not bitter.. he just takes the short bus to work..:laughing:



J/K... :thumbup:


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

wendon said:


> How many brothers you got? I've only got 3 :laughing::laughing::lol::lol:


About 750,000 or so brothers and sisters.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

eejack said:


> About 750,000 or so brothers and sisters.


Who's your daddy??:lol::lol:


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## MollyHatchet29 (Jan 24, 2012)

I was told from a "good old union brother" (actually spent time as our VP as a matter of fact), I was supposed to pick up his beer tab, make sure his tools were unpacked, picked up and put away before and after work as well as a few other "ridiculous demands". Yeaaaa, that didn't fly well with me. Gentleman my a$$. There's more to the story but it's not forum-safe. If that's the way it was, I don't want any parts of it.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

MollyHatchet29 said:


> I was told from a "good old union brother" (actually spent time as our VP as a matter of fact), I was supposed to pick up his beer tab, make sure his tools were unpacked, picked up and put away before and after work as well as a few other "ridiculous demands". Yeaaaa, that didn't fly well with me. Gentleman my a$$. There's more to the story but it's not forum-safe. If that's the way it was, I don't want any parts of it.


I bet he told you the one about it being good for your complexion.. :no:

Some people eat up the idea of being in 'power' when in control of others on a job..


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

eejack said:


> As an example, you can work with flashlights in the rain or spend a moment to set up a tarp and a proper work light.


Oh no, not rain, you might melt. :laughing:


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Jlarson said:


> Oh no, not rain, you might melt. :laughing:


Absolutely.

On the other hand, why not spend a minute putting up a tarp and working comfortably? The contractor is not paying me to work like an idiot, he is paying me to work productively.

Dry usually means more productive.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

MollyHatchet29 said:


> I was told from a "good old union brother" (actually spent time as our VP as a matter of fact), I was supposed to pick up his beer tab, make sure his tools were unpacked, picked up and put away before and after work as well as a few other "ridiculous demands". Yeaaaa, that didn't fly well with me. Gentleman my a$$. There's more to the story but it's not forum-safe. If that's the way it was, I don't want any parts of it.


Yep. Guys like that get the porto john spin around here.

Unless you were an apprentice at the time, in which case that is entirely expected. While I don't allow apprentices to carry my tools, I do expect them to figure out what I am going to need and have it handy. Teaches them a bit of forethought and me a bit of patience.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

wendon said:


> Who's your daddy??:lol::lol:


Henry Miller. He got around a bit.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xkp9co_saturday-night-live-dana-carvey-as-grumpy-old-man_fun


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

eejack said:


> About 750,000 or so brothers and sisters.


And unfortunately shirking (at present).


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## MollyHatchet29 (Jan 24, 2012)

eejack said:


> Yep. Guys like that get the porto john spin around here.
> 
> Unless you were an apprentice at the time, in which case that is entirely expected. While I don't allow apprentices to carry my tools, I do expect them to figure out what I am going to need and have it handy. Teaches them a bit of forethought and me a bit of patience.


It was along the lines of take em out, pack em up. As an apprentice, from day one, I've always attempted to have the proper tool ready before they need it so I see exactly what you're saying. I also have no problem loading up a cart with my JWs tools, or cleaning them up, putting in the gang box etc, after work... But if its a demand, no way. I do it as a sign of respect. You demand respect, it's harder to get it. Maybe that's not "old school", but that's how it works in my world.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

brian john said:


> And unfortunately shirking (at present).


Stable ( at present ).


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

BBQ said:


> The good old days of blatant racism, sexism, child labor, poisoning the planet ... great times. :laughing:



I agree with this wholeheartedly. Thems was the great times.:thumbsup:


Ah, the memories.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

MollyHatchet29 said:


> It was along the lines of take em out, pack em up. As an apprentice, from day one, I've always attempted to have the proper tool ready before they need it so I see exactly what you're saying. I also have no problem loading up a cart with my JWs tools, or cleaning them up, putting in the gang box etc, after work... But if its a demand, no way. I do it as a sign of respect. You demand respect, it's harder to get it. Maybe that's not "old school", but that's how it works in my world.


That is the old school way. You do it because you should and you don't abuse it because you shouldn't. It is an understanding, not a commandment and a privilege, not a right.

The world is round, and it has a sense of humor.


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

BBQ said:


> The good old days of blatant racism, sexism, child labor, poisoning the planet ... great times. :laughing:


The privileged free white man is really down trodden these days.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

BrokenVisitor said:


> I'm sorry that you're so bitter Steve that you feel the need to lash out. I simply had a question on the way things used to be. I was not trying to crawl to the net for sympathy. I am actually quite proud that I have completed 8000 hours of on the job training and 5 years of school to be a well qualified individual. I just asked a question please do not project your anger onto me or my question or my brothers. I hope you can learn to let go of your anger because that will eat you up.


Anger, the dark side it will lead.


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## ibuzzard (Dec 28, 2008)

Today, I worked (double-bubble,yeah!) in close proximity to a nearly 65 year old Inside Wireman. He was not my toolie. Nevertheless, I made sure my apprentice learned to never let a guy that age carry a 12 foot step ladder. I am 52 and still cannot stand to see a 20 something J.W. or Apprentice stand by and watch that kind of thing. That etiquette seems to be fading.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

eejack said:


> About 750,000 or so brothers and sisters.


Yeah, until one does something that looks bad then you through them to the curb and say they don't represent you. 

Two faced SOBs. :laughing:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

ibuzzard said:


> Today, I worked (double-bubble,yeah!) in close proximity to a nearly 65 year old Inside Wireman. He was not my toolie. Nevertheless, I made sure my apprentice learned to never let a guy that age carry a 12 foot step ladder. I am 52 and still cannot stand to see a 20 something J.W. or Apprentice stand by and watch that kind of thing. That etiquette seems to be fading.


I am 48 and I will carry my own damn ladder thank you.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

macmikeman said:


> I agree with this wholeheartedly. Thems was the great times.:thumbsup:
> 
> 
> Ah, the memories.


Really?


OK, let's through your wife back in an interment camp just in case.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

eejack said:


> Absolutely.
> 
> On the other hand, why not spend a minute putting up a tarp and working comfortably? The contractor is not paying me to work like an idiot, he is paying me to work productively.
> 
> Dry usually means more productive.


On the other hand it is never a minute, it is a bunch of minutes for a bunch of guys who if they just got to work would in fact be productive.

FWIW For our solar jobs we actully have some portable awnings to either shade the guys from sun or rain.


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## chewy (May 9, 2010)

BBQ said:


> Really?
> 
> OK, let's through your wife back in an interment camp just in case.


Did they put Hawaians in internment camps?


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

chewy said:


> Did they put Hawaians in internment camps?


Japanese.


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## chewy (May 9, 2010)

Chris1971 said:


> Japanese.


Oh I thought Mike said his wife was Hawaian.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

chewy said:


> Did they put Hawaians in internment camps?


If I recall correctly Macs wife is Japanese. 


And to be clear I mean no disrespect to her or Mac, just pointing out an example of the good old days.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_American_internment


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## chewy (May 9, 2010)

BBQ said:


> If I recall correctly Macs wife is Japanese.
> 
> And to be clear I mean no disrespect to her or Mac, just pointing out an example of the good old days.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_American_internment


Me neither, I never take the piss out of guys familys, I was just curious.


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## denny3992 (Jul 12, 2010)

wendon said:


> Who's your daddy??:lol::lol:


Ed hill!


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

eejack said:


> That is the old school way. You do it because you should and you don't abuse it because you shouldn't. It is an understanding, not a commandment and a privilege, not a right.
> 
> The world is round, and it has a sense of humor.


*translation*>









~CS~


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## ibuzzard (Dec 28, 2008)

BBQ said:


> Yeah, until one does something that looks bad then you through them to the curb and say they don't represent you.
> 
> Two faced SOBs. :laughing:





BBQ said:


> I am 48 and I will carry my own damn ladder thank you.





BBQ said:


> Really?
> 
> 
> OK, let's through your wife back in an interment camp just in case.





BBQ said:


> On the other hand it is never a minute, it is a bunch of minutes for a bunch of guys who if they just got to work would in fact be productive.
> 
> FWIW For our solar jobs we actully have some portable awnings to either shade the guys from sun or rain.


Good morning, and how are you feeling this fine day, Bob?

Sleep wrong, didja? LOL!


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

ibuzzard said:


> Good morning, and how are you feeling this fine day, Bob?
> 
> Sleep wrong, didja? LOL!


No, I slept great, I am just am just keeping up my duties as forum curmudgeon. :laughing:


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

That's a big word, your starting to sound like CS.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Loose Neutral said:


> That's a big word, your starting to sound like CS.


:laughing:

Not my word, I was nominated for that position in a thread a while ago. :jester:


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## ibuzzard (Dec 28, 2008)

Loose Neutral said:


> That's a big word, your starting to sound like CS.


Heaven forbid.

Stop insulting the man, them's fightin' words.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

BBQ said:


> On the other hand it is never a minute, it is a bunch of minutes for a bunch of guys who if they just got to work would in fact be productive.
> 
> FWIW For our solar jobs we actully have some portable awnings to either shade the guys from sun or rain.


So a bunch of minutes means the whole job is more productive, as evidenced by your contractor supplied awnings.

I realize working like a gentleman seems like a union thing, but everyone in the skill trades does it. Rise up out of the muck and work like someone worthy of the money you are earning.

Unless, of course, the contractor is paying/treating you like an illegal.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

chicken steve said:


> *translation*>
> ~CS~


lol.

That is what I like about you Chicken. Consistency.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

BBQ said:


> Really?
> 
> 
> OK, let's through your wife back in an interment camp just in case.


I noted a hit of sarcasm in Mac's post.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

brian john said:


> I noted a hit of sarcasm in Mac's post.


If it was someone else I would agree, based on Macs post I do not.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

I was trying to avoid posting in here as I am a well known hater but. When I first got in the local I worked with on of the first black electricians in our local, decent guy. 

Oh he had some stories of the good old days in the union, that would curl your hair.

And this was just not in the union I know I grew up in the 60's but the brothers hated the real brothers.


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

BrokenVisitor said:


> I've just turned out of my time and I often hear from the older members that things aren't how they used to be and they seem to take offense at certain things that are said or done. Is there some sort of code of conduct that used to be in effect "back in the day"? I would just like to know if there were written rules at to how to "work like gentlemen".


The old gent is correct. The working conditions such as safety and safety equipment are better today than in the past. Tools used today are better than in the past. Material used today is better than in the past. People need to adapt, adjust or retire.


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

BrokenVisitor said:


> I've just turned out of my time and I often hear from the older members that things aren't how they used to be and they seem to take offense at certain things that are said or done. Is there some sort of code of conduct that used to be in effect "back in the day"? I would just like to know if there were written rules at to how to "work like gentlemen".


There's good and bad on both sides of the union / non - union divide . Obviously , you have to have worked on both sides to come to that conclusion , lol ! A strong work ethic and caring about what you do are still out there ( although , maybe not as prevalent ) , and that's something you either have , or don't have . It's hard , if not impossible to teach someone to be a hard worker . Any of the stories I've heard from some of the " old timer " local guys I've worked with usually pertain to activities that usually don't fly in today's construction world . Such as ; drinking on the job all day on a Friday and knocking off at noon and getting paid for 8 hours , or purposely dragging your feet on a big job forcing it to have to go to overtime to meet the completion date . If that was the " good old days " , I'm glad I missed out ! I recently worked on a job at an Ivy League university . Several electrical contractors on one project . The general foreman for the one company would go to the local bar at least once a week ( usually Fridays ) , and have more than a few . He was definitely impaired when he returned to the job and would try to steer clear of the higher ups . His fun ended one Friday when the construction management company made him take an on site breathalyzer test , which he failed miserably . He was escorted off the site , lost his job and was labeled as a problem by his local .


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

drumnut08 said:


> There's good and bad on both sides of the union / non - union divide . Obviously , you have to have worked on both sides to come to that conclusion , lol ! A strong work ethic and caring about what you do are still out there ( although , maybe not as prevalent ) , and that's something you either have , or don't have . It's hard , if not impossible to teach someone to be a hard worker . Any of the stories I've heard from some of the " old timer " local guys I've worked with usually pertain to activities that usually don't fly in today's construction world . Such as ; drinking on the job all day on a Friday and knocking off at noon and getting paid for 8 hours , or purposely dragging your feet on a big job forcing it to have to go to overtime to meet the completion date . If that was the " good old days " , I'm glad I missed out ! I recently worked on a job at an Ivy League university . Several electrical contractors on one project . The general foreman for the one company would go to the local bar at least once a week ( usually Fridays ) , and have more than a few . He was definitely impaired when he returned to the job and would try to steer clear of the higher ups . His fun ended one Friday when the construction management company made him take an on site breathalyzer test , which he failed miserably . He was escorted off the site , lost his job and was labeled as a problem by his local .


The general foreman was in a union? Never been on a job where the generals weren't part of management.


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

Yes , he was ! He was steady for this contractor for years too . He screwed himself pretty big on that one !


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

backstay said:


> The general foreman was in a union? Never been on a job where the generals weren't part of management.


He was a general foreman for the electrical contractor he worked for on this job , not the entire project . His company had all the power and distribution work on this job . There was still a GC superintendent and a big construction management company that were ultimately in charge of all the other prime contractors .


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

drumnut08 said:


> He was a general foreman for the electrical contractor he worked for on this job , not the entire project . His company had all the power and distribution work on this job . There was still a GC superintendent and a big construction management company that were ultimately in charge of all the other prime contractors .


I'm not saying this particular situation is " business as usual " in the IBEW , but it's definitely something that used to happen quite a bit and still does occasionally . I'm all for having a good time , but not during work hours when you're in charge of 50+ electricians , who you're ultimately responsible for . Sorry , I got off on a tangent here and strayed from the main focus on this thread .


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

brian john said:


> I was trying to avoid posting in here as I am a well known hater but. When I first got in the local I worked with on of the first black electricians in our local, decent guy.
> 
> Oh he had some stories of the good old days in the union, that would curl your hair.
> 
> And this was just not in the union I know I grew up in the 60's but the brothers hated the real brothers.


As far as I can see the black folks are some of the most outspoken group about how union is superior and how there are too many rats on the job.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Frasbee said:


> As far as I can see the black folks are some of the most outspoken group about how union is superior and how there are too many rats on the job.


:laughing:


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Interesting.

A thread where the racists come out and the non union guys use the insult rat.

Shocking.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Frasbee said:


> As far as I can see the black folks are some of the most outspoken group about how union is superior and how there are too many rats on the job.


Yes the union has improved immensely in this regards, my point was the good old days are only that good in old minds that forget, and young minds that are ignorant to what really happened.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

eejack said:


> Interesting.
> 
> A thread where the racists come out and the non union guys use the insult rat.
> 
> Shocking.


So once again you have absolutely no substance so you resort to name calling about people you know nothing about. 

My point was and is the good old days had major problems and are not as rosy as you try to paint.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

Frasbee said:


> As far as I can see the black folks are some of the most outspoken group about how union is superior and how there are too many rats on the job.


. . . brought to you direct from the city of brotherly love (unless you root for the wrong team on bat day)


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

I had to diffuse a situation where an older (maybe that's the key factor above all else) black IBEW member was insulting one of the non-union mechanical guys because someone on his crew bent one of our 1/4'' supports *and reported it to us.*

He said "we take pride in our work unlike them, cause we're union".

That can easily set us back where I've been trying to keep a cordial relationship between the trades. Last thing I need is my harnesses to be cut while we're out, tools to go missing, or lifts going uncharged because some old fogey coddled [email protected] can't keep his mouth shut.


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

backstay said:


> The general foreman was in a union? Never been on a job where the generals weren't part of management.


?? A General Foreman is the highest ticket beneath Superintendent. Of course they're/we're union lol.

Even Supers are Inside Wiremen...at least here in Local 3. Some of us who went from GF to Project Manager are also Inside Wiremen. However in most Locals, PM's are in a different division. 

It goes like this:

*Principal Owners*

*Superintendent* = Liaison between the men and the owners and the union
General Foreman = unlimited number of men and has a number of Foremen and Sub-Foremen under him in direct relation to the number of manpower

*Number 2* = Assists the General Foreman with Logistics etc

*Foreman *= with a ticket, up to 10 men

*foreman *= no ticket/small jobbing usually 5 men maximum

*Straw Boss* = (Sub-Foreman)

*A Journeyman*

*5th yr* = MIJ for a year and a half (means Mechanic in Journey...where you're working alone, on a truck, with no one to hold your hand)

*1-4yr* = Apprentices

*TA1* = Temporary Apprentice 1

*Whale Sh*t*

*Project Manager* = unfortunately that's the general consensus

All of the above other than the Principals are IBEW members.


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

Work like a gentleman is something we try to beat into our Apprentices heads at school AND on the jobsite. What you can do...is try to google IBEW Working Agreement and look deep. Some of the old working agreements are amazing. 

As EE Said...Henry Miller got around a LOT. He personally started the first 6 IBEW Locals. 

But the phase: Work like a gentleman applies to all of us. Union or Non Union. No one in our field should work like a dog, should be treated like or ACT like a laborer. We are ranked 9th on the Deadliest Jobs list..up from 11th and without a doubt are the most technical construction trade. That isn't going to change in the next few lifetimes. The phrase is meant to instill respect...for yourself, your partner, your tools, the owners tools. It's a reminder to the green horns that the men who pioneered our trade did so at a cost of their lives. We continue working and basically doing the same thing...but smarter, safer, and more efficiently.


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## ibuzzard (Dec 28, 2008)

Man, thanks for the education. I of course have picked up on some of those terms, never knew their meanings.

We have nowhere near that many different divisions/classifications . It is basically:


Superintendent- almost always has been an Inside Wireman, in charge of dispersing manpower, moving men around, oversees multiple jobs.usually multiple ones per contractor, depending on size of contractor.

Project Manager - Usually on-site on larger jobs, interfaces with GC, customer or his representative, architects, the home office, engineers. Not even on most projects, so not sure what pay scale he is at.

General Foreman - oversees the crew foremen, reports to P.M.

Crew Foreman

J.W.'s 

Apprentices

Not sure of the exact ratios , but we have fewer divisions. Non-leadman system, though informally there are frequently those go-to guys.

Other classifications are Material Handlers, Duct handlers, Groundsmen. Again, not sure of their duties, and actual classification status within our Local. The only one of these I regularly see are Material Handlers.


It seems that the multitude of classification you guys have is a N.Y. Only thing?
Or an East Coast thing?


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

ibuzzard said:


> Man, thanks for the education. I of course have picked up on some of those terms, never knew their meanings.
> 
> We have nowhere near that many different divisions/classifications . It is basically:
> 
> ...


No not an East Coast thing, it's pretty prevalent around the country.Everyone in my list above is an Inside Wireman except for the PM and owner in General. Most contractors aren't fond of making Inside Wiremen PM's because of the benefit package. Here in NYC a IW's benefit package is 94%, a PM's package is 58%. If you added up a regular journeyman's salary it comes out to about $3400/week with all of our benefits here. 

Salary wise it's like this:

*Apprentices *= standard

*Inside Wiremen* = standard

*Straw Boss* = +$3.75/hr

*foremen *= +$5/hr

*Foreman* = +$7.50/hr

*General Foreman* = +$7.50 up to whatever the deal you make. For my jobs running 60-80 men I make +$15/hr and 80+ I make +$20/hr. At the level of GF it's about your ability to manage projects of note. It also has a lot to do with your reputation. It's blatantly clear at this level that ONE f*ck up cancels a THOUSAND "atta boys". 

*Superintendent* = minimum salary is Inside Wireman, then whatever deal you make. Prior to 2001 the Super had to be the highest paid JW in the shop. Standard was 5% over whatever the highest man made that week. It fluctuated weekly. But it's not unheard of Supers making $200k...as well as some PM's and Project Executives making in the $200K yearly. 

Basically *GF*, *Super*, and *PM's* make their own deals. OF course the numbers above are minimums. There are Foremen I know who've been at the same shop for 20yrs who make + $10 all the time. However, that's happening less and less these days. 

Now onto *Divisions*. There aren't that many different divisions. You get the IO Newspaper and in it you can see the different divisions for each local during their report. 

*A Division* = Inside Wireman. Here in NYC we are simply called A Men and we hold an A Card. This is the most sought after Division and the most wanted card within the IBEW. For obvious reasons. No matter what happens or where you go. You CAN work if you want to. You are permitted to Travel for work (no other divisions are allowed this benefit), your Salary, Pension, Employer Contributions, and Medical are higher than the other Divisions. The A Division is the only division where the Employer pays your FICA. 

*M Division* = CW/CE (we've had this division here in Local 3 since 1966 to compete with non union labor)

*ADM Divison* = Office Personnel. This includes PM's Estimators, Engineers, etc...basically everyone in the shop
. 
*Expeditors Division* = all of the delivery men, warehouse men, etc

*Manufacturing Division* = Lighting, Supply, etc

*DBM Divsion = Divsion of Building Maintenance* = all of the workers in high rise construction who support the longevity of our work. Change lamps, ballasts, etc. Basically the Electrical Maintenance Crews. (we call them Bulbologists...they don't like that  lol )

*H Division* = Alarm/Security/Fire Alarm Technicians

*C Division* = Cable TV Installers

*T Division* = Telephone/Data Installers

*City Division* = All of NYC Civil Service Electrician's. Talk about a mind numbing job...I did it for 6 months as for the Mayors Office. I was told by the 72yr old guy I replaced that it was a 5 newspaper a day job. MIND NUMBINGLY BORING. 

*J Division = Street Lighting/Sign Division* ( I believe only 3 Locals have this Division: NYC, Las Vegas, and LA...but don't quote me on that)

Hmmm I think that's it...might have forgotten a few. After 26yrs of running work and teaching you start to forget stuff...LOL. 

Each Division has a Business Agent who reports to the Business Manager. Here in Local 3...we have had exactly 3 Business Managers since 1958.

You mentioned that GF's report to PM's out by you. WHEW...let me tell you...if that was brought u p here...there would be a lot of screaming. GF's report to one person. The Superintendent. That's it. A PM is a different animal. Their job is to process information, make sure mission critical material is ordered, delivered, processed. That's it. PM's are not permitted to interact with the men, at all. A PM can not tell an AJ what to do, lay out work, basically they aren't electricians...so how could they? The old school thought was that a PM worked FOR the GF. That was true until the 2000's...as time changed around the country PM's were given more power and old school GF's were retiring. Now PM's work WITH the GF. 

On most of my projects I was the GF, PM, and Engineer. That's where the whole...PM's work FOR the GF comes from...the PM just made sure to go to meetings, order big ticket items, and make sure the prints were correct. Now they do all that and work with the GF as a team. A problem around the country is that there has been an influx of kids out of college with their PMP Certification who are know it all's...and think they're in control of the men. Acting that way is the fast track to getting an ass beating. LOL. You'll see the major GC's like Turner, SKANSKA, Tishman all take kids out of school, put them in PMP training and plant them on jobsites...we call them White Hats...being that a PM is there, all the time...you can now have a lower level foreman there...pay him less, and divide the work between the GF and the PM. BTW...PMP certification doesn't relate to our field as much as the GC side of things.I went through it and personally, it was a waste of time and money. 

BTW...the Super has to be the worst job of them all. One you have to deal with all the men, then you have to deal with the owners, and THEN...you have to deal with the union. Every time one guy does something bad...guess who has to report to the Hall and explain how he let it happen! 

Two Words...*NO THANKS* you can keep that position lol.

Anyway, there are a lot of Locals set up like this. NYC, Chicago, Dallas, St. Louis, Miami to name a few. Local 3 and Local 134 Chicago are very very similar...as is Los Angeles 11 and 18. In the old days...NYC, Chicago and LA used to be called the Golden Triangle. The BM's of each local worked together closely and supported each other. Then it went away...but now it's coming back again. That's a very good thing for all parties. 

Anyway...this post turned out to be a freaking book. I hope I've cleared some things up.


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

That's it...after that post...my fingers are tired LOL. Have a good day guys.

And to any Veterans here...

*Thank you. *


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> you lot made your bed
> 
> so now sleep in & be happy
> 
> ...


...welcome to the forum, chicken steve needs an interpreter, but eventually you will get used to his post, there like puzzles


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

brian john said:


> So once again you have absolutely no substance so you resort to name calling about people you know nothing about.
> 
> My point was and is the good old days had major problems and are not as rosy as you try to paint.


You have a point?

I just thought it was an agenda.


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## ibuzzard (Dec 28, 2008)

360max said:


> ....you will get used to his post, there like puzzles


You are correct, they are like puzzles, especially when he's been hitting the hooch or whatever substance(s) he partakes in.

Don't think I will ever get used to, nor do I WANT to get used to, the pretentiousness, self-absorption, and pseudo intellectualism. Especially amusing is the afore mentioned combined with atrocious spelling, grammar, and incorrect usage of certain terms and concepts.


Other than that, he's more fun than a barrel of monkeys. We usually keep at least a few clowns handy to mock.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

360max said:


> ...welcome to the forum, chicken steve needs an interpreter, but eventually you will get used to his post, there like puzzles


He is our own forum Riddler.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

ibuzzard said:


> We usually keep at least a few clowns handy to mock.


And where do you fit it oh great one? :laughing:


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

What did I miss...I thought we were all playing nice today? LOL


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

Double Post


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## ibuzzard (Dec 28, 2008)

BBQ said:


> And where do you fit it oh great one? :laughing:


That is an open- ended question - though not to my wife.


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## Acadian9 (Jun 6, 2009)

ibuzzard said:


> Today, I worked (double-bubble,yeah!) in close proximity to a nearly 65 year old Inside Wireman. He was not my toolie. Nevertheless, I made sure my apprentice learned to never let a guy that age carry a 12 foot step ladder. I am 52 and still cannot stand to see a 20 something J.W. or Apprentice stand by and watch that kind of thing. That etiquette seems to be fading.


I work with a guy who's 56 and an apprentice who's 25. I'm 23. The guy who is 56 has a tendency to grab all the heavier stuff while me and said apprentice get to carry the lighter stuff. For a while, I tried to tell him to leave us the heavier stuff. Doesn't work. Some people are just hard wired like that.


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## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

icefalkon said:


> Double Post


Thanks Steve for the information that you bring to this forum, with it one day we all may be a little more informed on both sides.

As far as working as gentlemen some of the things that come to my mind are; communication, take the ipod ear bud off and put them in your car, pay attention and pull your pants. Don't know what is going today, try showing up on time tomorrow and leave the iphone in the car. Try taking a bath before coming to work and brush your teeth so I don't have to smell the beer you drank last night until you start sweating. This whole thread is about pride, respect and character.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

How it used to be?
Years ago I worked harder because I didn't know better. 
Now I work easier and produce more by not trying to work it all at once.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

I think the old guy just meant that the trade was a much better place before MC cable became commonplace.


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

sbrn33 said:


> I think the old guy just meant that the trade was a much better place before MC cable became commonplace.


LOL

That's how I feel!


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

rlc3854 said:


> Thanks Steve for the information that you bring to this forum, with it one day we all may be a little more informed on both sides.
> 
> As far as working as gentlemen some of the things that come to my mind are; communication, take the ipod ear bud off and put them in your car, pay attention and pull your pants. Don't know what is going today, try showing up on time tomorrow and leave the iphone in the car. Try taking a bath before coming to work and brush your teeth so I don't have to smell the beer you drank last night until you start sweating. This whole thread is about pride, respect and character.



You're welcome. Thank you for the kind words. :thumbsup:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

rlc3854 said:


> Thanks Steve for the information that you bring to this forum, with it one day we all may be a little more informed on both sides.
> 
> As far as working as gentlemen some of the things that come to my mind are; communication, take the ipod ear bud off and put them in your car, pay attention and pull your pants. Don't know what is going today, try showing up on time tomorrow and leave the iphone in the car.* Try taking a bath before coming to work and brush your teeth so I don't have to smell the beer you drank last night until you start sweating*. This whole thread is about pride, respect and character.


I worked with a drunk, at work he seemed ok did his job, showed up on time seemed sober, off the job I was told he was a total lush. When he started sweating OMG the cheap whiskey smell was repulsive.


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

Ha! Ever work around Italian stonemasons? Oh my god....we had these guys off the boat from Italy when we remodeled the Cathedral of St. John the Divine here in NY. They were amazing at what they did...however they only bathed once a week. No lie. Even our drunks smelt better than they did. Summer, NYC, huge sweaty job with these stink bombs that were immune to themselves! 

Ill never forget that a plumbers apprentice went out and bought stick-ups and put them all over their work area and their tool crates. 

Now THAT'S a smell that lingers lol!


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