# Where do you draw the line?



## Locknutz (Sep 7, 2012)

Working today we were asked to come in an hour early 4am. This according to our rules is outside of our regular scheduled hours and subject to overtime rate. 

This is the second time for me on this job where the whole crew came in early. Apparently happens frequently so I have been told. However they have not been paying OT or even adjusting quitting time. 

Nobody says a word about it and when I bring it up some say they don't mind/care/scared of repercussions. I addressed the issue with the foreman today respectfully asked that something be done. 

My question is if this is common place and where do you draw the line? We have a CBA for a reason. Right??


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

Locknutz said:


> Working today we were asked to come in an hour early 4am. This according to our rules is outside of our regular scheduled hours and subject to overtime rate.
> 
> This is the second time for me on this job where the whole crew came in early. Apparently happens frequently so I have been told. However they have not been paying OT or even adjusting quitting time.
> 
> ...


What's the problem, you don't want to work for free???:blink:

:laughing:

Are you guys working more than 40 and getting just strait time?


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Locknutz said:


> Working today we were asked to come in an hour early 4am. This according to our rules is outside of our regular scheduled hours and subject to overtime rate.
> 
> This is the second time for me on this job where the whole crew came in early. Apparently happens frequently so I have been told. However they have not been paying OT or even adjusting quitting time.
> 
> ...


You should give the foreman the one paycheck opportunity.

If your paycheck does not reflect the overtime you ask him to correct it. 

If he says no, you call the hall and explain it to an agent in pleasant and calm tones and let him deal with it.

If for some whatever bizarre reason it doesn't get resolved then you have to do it yourself. Refuse to come in early, become a rabble rouser, get the crew all worked up over the stolen money, just do your job when it is time to work. You will either get laid off or resolved.

All we have to sell is our time. If you give it away, then what do you have left?


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## henderson14 (Oct 23, 2010)

That is too early for me. However, if you complain you will likely be the first one laid off if work gets slow. Or it will at least be a knock on you depending on how well liked you are and good of a worker. You just have to weigh the positives and negatives. The way I see it is that if no one else is complaining, and I am fairly new, then I shouldn't be complaining either. Just bite the bullet IMO.


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## Locknutz (Sep 7, 2012)

We are working 40 hours Harry. Our CBA states any time outside reg hours is Ot, and a normal workday is 6A to 6P


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## Locknutz (Sep 7, 2012)

henderson14 said:


> That is too early for me. However, if you complain you will likely be the first one laid off if work gets slow. Or it will at least be a knock on you depending on how well liked you are and good of a worker. You just have to weigh the positives and negatives. The way I see it is that if no one else is complaining, and I am fairly new, then I shouldn't be complaining either. Just bite the bullet IMO.



I feel like that is how we lose our rights. 

I often ask myself what I would tell my young son what to do. Stand up for what is right and for those to scared or bow down cowardly.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

henderson14 said:


> That is too early for me. However, if you complain you will likely be the first one laid off if work gets slow. Or it will at least be a knock on you depending on how well liked you are and good of a worker. You just have to weigh the positives and negatives. The way I see it is that if no one else is complaining, and I am fairly new, then I shouldn't be complaining either. Just bite the bullet IMO.


My perspective is slightly different. I owe it to the folks who came before me and fought for my conditions and my benefits to preserve and even enhance those conditions and benefits. If we as individuals allow things, the contractor has a real reason to continue to ask for more and provide less from everyone.

I would be the first to help out if the situation warranted it - an early shutdown to help a customer or staying a bit late to finish a critical task. We are supposed to work with the contractor, it is a relationship built on compromise and mutual beneficence.

However if the relationship is all give and no take then some patient stubbornness is in order. If I get laid off because of it, then I get laid off because of it and I will let the hall deal with it, but if I am accepting of what is being done, then everyone has to suffer the consequences of my decision.

The important part is if you expect the contractor to hold up his end of the deal, you have to hold up yours. If you get paid for overtime, you best work it as well as you can.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Locknutz said:


> We are working 40 hours Harry. Our CBA states any time outside reg hours is Ot, and a normal workday is 6A to 6P


6a - 6p = 12 hours. 

If your CBA stipulates that time worked between 6p and 6a is premium time, you should demand and get it, as well as everybody else. For certain, the contractor is getting paid for it.


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## henderson14 (Oct 23, 2010)

Locknutz said:


> I feel like that is how we lose our rights.
> 
> I often ask myself what I would tell my young son what to do. Stand up for what is right and for those to scared or bow down cowardly.



I don't see it as all about "losing our rights", because it is not the shop that is telling us to do it (why would they care?). It is the guys who I work with who decide collectively that they would prefer to start early and leave early. Usually 9 out of 10 of the guys prefers to start and leave early. Again, its not about losing rights because the owner and people in the office could care less.

I would also like to point out that if everything must be done according to our agreement, then we would not get paid coffee breaks. If your fine with that let me know.


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

henderson14 said:


> I don't see it as all about "losing our rights", because it is not the shop that is telling us to do it (why would they care?). It is the guys who I work with who decide collectively that they would prefer to start early and leave early. Usually 9 out of 10 of the guys prefers to start and leave early. Again, its not about losing rights because the owner and people in the office could care less. I would also like to point out that if everything must be done according to our agreement, then we would not get paid coffee breaks. If your fine with that let me know.


He's not starting early and leaving early. They're starting early and working late and not even being compensated accordingly. If this was open shop business I know some people on here who would shít a bird. Bottom line is if it's in the agreement it's not up to the shop or the crew, it's up to the collective and they've already spoken


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## henderson14 (Oct 23, 2010)

ponyboy said:


> He's not starting early and leaving early. They're starting early and working late and not even being compensated accordingly. If this was open shop business I know some people on here who would shít a bird. Bottom line is if it's in the agreement it's not up to the shop or the crew, it's up to the collective and they've already spoken


Well as I said, the agreement doesn't stipulate a coffee break either. The agreement doesn't stipulate that they can't lay you off. The crew decided collectively that they would rather start early and leave earlier than they would have so the majority wins. I was giving advice based on reality and what will give the OP the best outcome (not getting laid off). 

If the OP prefers following the agreement line by line, and getting laid off shortly after, then thats fine by me. In the end they will still be starting early and the OP will be sitting at home on unemployment. I'm just saying that it probably isn't worth it and him trying to be a hard liner won't change anything. The OP asked where to draw the line. My opinion is that you don't draw the line there because it isn't worth it in the end. Its a different situation if the shop is telling them to start early and no one else wants to. Its also different if his local is a walk-through.


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

henderson14 said:


> Well as I said, the agreement doesn't stipulate a coffee break either. The agreement doesn't stipulate that they can't lay you off. The crew decided collectively that they would rather start early and leave earlier than they would have so the majority wins. I was giving advice based on reality and what will give the OP the best outcome (not getting laid off). If the OP prefers following the agreement line by line, and getting laid off shortly after, then thats fine by me. I'm just saying that it probably isn't worth it and him trying to be a hard liner won't change anything. The OP asked where to draw the line. My opinion is that you don't draw the line there because it isn't worth it in the end.


Read the very first post. They are starting earlier and not adjusting quitting time is how I read it. That's messed up


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## Locknutz (Sep 7, 2012)

We start at 5am on a regular basis because of noise restrictions. This is outside normal working hours as defined by CBA. This is something I can understand to compromise with we leave earlier and more time to hammer drill etc til tenants arrive. But then it's come in at 4 so we can offload this truck etc. what's next 3 then 2. Like I said where do u draw the line? At what point is it no longer a compromise and you are disrespecting the agreement?


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Locknutz said:


> We start at 5am on a regular basis because of noise restrictions. This is outside normal working hours as defined by CBA. This is something I can understand to compromise with we leave earlier and more time to hammer drill etc til tenants arrive. But then it's come in at 4 so we can offload this truck etc. what's next 3 then 2. Like I said where do u draw the line? At what point is it no longer a compromise and you are disrespecting the agreement?


In your OP you said this:



> Working today we were asked to come in an hour early 4am. This according to our rules is outside of our regular scheduled hours and subject to overtime rate.
> 
> This is the second time for me on this job where the whole crew came in early. Apparently happens frequently so I have been told.* However they have not been paying OT or even adjusting quitting time. *


 How is it that your quitting time isn't being adjusted AND you're not getting paid OT?


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

henderson14 said:


> Well as I said, the agreement doesn't stipulate a coffee break either.


 Past practice.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Locknutz said:


> Working today we were asked to come in an hour early 4am. This according to our rules is outside of our regular scheduled hours and subject to overtime rate.
> 
> This is the second time for me on this job where the whole crew came in early. Apparently happens frequently so I have been told. However they have not been paying OT or even adjusting quitting time.
> 
> ...


If you like your employer and want him to stay out of trouble, speak up. Maybe this is the brain child of a wormy foreman and the employer doesn't know what's going on.
Things like this can put a contractor out of business. This is also your golden goose. Don't let it get butchered


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## Phatstax (Feb 16, 2014)

Seems to me that Locknutz has the right idea and is getting good advice from most. The employer signs the CBA and should know exactly what is expected from both sides. If the employer fails to uphold their part of the agreement, we should point it out (politely as some have suggested). To do so does not mean you are a troublemaker. If you do not uphold your part of the agreement, the employer will certainly point it out to you. Keep up the good fight, Locknutz.


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## TheWiz (Jul 9, 2013)

Does your CBA have provisions that allow the to shift the normal work hours? In my local the contractors can shift the normal hour up or back two hours to accommodate customer needs?


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## TheWiz (Jul 9, 2013)

But that doesn't explain why end of the day isn't earlier or why no OT. Are you working4 or 5 days a week?


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## Locknutz (Sep 7, 2012)

We have the same provision for shift work. That falls into a different category. Typically all the contractors that I have been with would let you out a half hour earlier in lieu of the OT. 

I believe but can't confirm that this is the workings of upper management/pm. The crew that is here stays with him and seems they are happy to stay working and fear that they will be shipped out if they speak up.


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

All things being equal and assuming you are legally entitled to the OT, you could just keep track of it and when it comes time to move on, for whatever reason, then submit your well documented case for the OT payment.

Since your worried about being laid off, or how this will be viewed by management, this will give you time to think about how you want to handle it. If things go south with the job for other reasons then you can submit your proof for payment. 

Or things may go well and you'll decide to just let it go. 

However, this isn't how I would handle it. I tend to agree with eejack's position on this one.


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## OaklandElec (Jan 4, 2011)

ponyboy said:


> He's not starting early and leaving early. They're starting early and working late and not even being compensated accordingly. If this was open shop business I know some people on here who would shít a bird. Bottom line is if it's in the agreement it's not up to the shop or the crew, it's up to the collective and they've already spoken


Wouldn't happen at any open shop I've worked at. We don't have to worry about blacklisting, so we actually stand up for ourselves.


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

OaklandElec said:


> Wouldn't happen at any open shop I've worked at. We don't have to worry about blacklisting, so we actually stand up for ourselves.


Yeah I'm sure


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## Locknutz (Sep 7, 2012)

flyboy said:


> Since your worried about being laid off, or how this will be viewed by management, this will give you time to think about how you want to handle it.


Stated previously that I have addressed it with the foreman. Not worried about being laid off. I'm not asking for anything more than what is owed.


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

You ave a contract the foreman knows this, the other workers know this and the owner knows this. They should be abiding by the written agreement.

After 8 no matter what the start time is OT and you should be receiving that anything less and they are taking YOUR MONEY.


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## Awg-Dawg (Jan 23, 2007)

Locknutz said:


> Stated previously that I have addressed it with the foreman.


 Now that you have to talked to the foreman and nothing has happened.

What are you going to do next?


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## Locknutz (Sep 7, 2012)

The foreman said he would ask about it. The superintendent/pm was on site last night for a shutdown and called me over to ask about my concern. Long story short it was agreed that I would not be coming in before the normal start time without compensation. 

I hope others will follow suit and speak up.


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## Awg-Dawg (Jan 23, 2007)

Locknutz said:


> Long story short it was agreed that I would not be coming in before the normal start time without compensation..


I think we already know the outcome.:laughing:

Anyway, If that is what you agreed on, you should be paid.


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## Locknutz (Sep 7, 2012)

Don't fear the reaper


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Locknutz said:


> Working today we were asked to come in an hour early 4am. This according to our rules is outside of our regular scheduled hours and subject to overtime rate.
> 
> This is the second time for me on this job where the whole crew came in early. Apparently happens frequently so I have been told. However they have not been paying OT or even adjusting quitting time.
> 
> ...


Call the Department of Labor in the Blue pages of the phone book and see if they are interested in that information.


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## Locknutz (Sep 7, 2012)

I have no problem asking for what I am owed. I come to work and work hard for you 8 hours, last night 17 hours. 

The guys that don't say anything most of them hide in the corner playing on their phones half the day.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Locknutz said:


> I have no problem asking for what I am owed. I come to work and work hard for you 8 hours, last night 17 hours.
> 
> The guys that don't say anything most of them hide in the corner playing on their phones half the day.


They may not be on their phones...they are looking for their BALLS.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Locknutz said:


> Don't fear the reaper


You have an agent who is supposed to be there to help you. You might want to give a call or if it is convenient stop by and have a pleasant chat.

Part of the reason why you joined was that advocate on your side. They won't be afraid to ask for your help, don't hesitate to ask for theirs.


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

eejack said:


> You have an agent who is supposed to be there to help you. You might want to give a call or if it is convenient stop by and have a pleasant chat.
> 
> Part of the reason why you joined was that advocate on your side. They won't be afraid to ask for your help, don't hesitate to ask for theirs.


EE;

You and I have bumped heads a few times over union issues, but on this you are spot on. The union representative should have been aware of this the first day it occurred, the longer it goes on the more likely the EC is to take further advantae of rules that are in place.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Same chit happens everywhere it seems. 

The contractor knows about the not making noise between certain hours and priced the job accordingly. 

Most of the time it's the foreman's decision, not the office.

The foreman is just trying to gain brownie points by saving money for the contractor. Maybe there are bonuses for him if the job gets done sooner?

If it was happening to me, and it has, the job steward would be informed.


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## Phatstax (Feb 16, 2014)

Good for you Locknutz, you are not a troublemaker. Keep doing the right thing. I hope the guys around you will be inspired to stand up for themselves, led by your example. Sounds like they could use some leadership.


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## fistofbolts (Jan 25, 2014)

This story sounds familiar here. Same stuff different place. The contract doesnt mean much when most of a crew is scared and worried about taking care of the bills/family. Doubt one guy will make a difference but good luck.


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## Semi-Ret Electrician (Nov 10, 2011)

As I expected your foreman was acting alone but the Supt. was aware of it.

So, you will now be watched very closely and let go first during a RIF.

I got my son a job w/ an instrumentation installer (friend).

He was classified as a "helper" but became the go-to-guy on the job. Boss was real happy with him.

Other crafts complained and one day my son got a call (home) from some gov. type asking what he did at work.

It was determined he was really a "foreman" and his boss owed him $5K , which he collected along with a pink slip.


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## Locknutz (Sep 7, 2012)

Time will tell if I will be let go or not semi. But for now I am still there while other guys have been sent out. 

As for your son what did he think about him getting laid off? Did he try and give the money back to keep his job?


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## Semi-Ret Electrician (Nov 10, 2011)

I tried to talk him into either working free for a while or somehow getting it back to the boss.

But an 18 year old just saw the green.

And lost out on some great training.

Be very careful, they will be watching you.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Semi-Ret Electrician said:


> I tried to talk him into either working free for a while or somehow getting it back to the boss.


I mean no offense but if your son was doing the work of a foreman and the boss was happy with his work, why lay him off?

Fair is fair.

Contractor deserves to make a profit, but does not deserve to suck the marrow out of the bones of the workforce.


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## blueheels2 (Apr 22, 2009)

Just went through something similar in our local but it involved drivetime. My advice stand up now and get your brothers to stand up with you. You are being stolen from.


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## Semi-Ret Electrician (Nov 10, 2011)

eejack said:


> I mean no offense but if your son was doing the work of a foreman and the boss was happy with his work, why lay him off?
> 
> Fair is fair.
> 
> Contractor deserves to make a profit, but does not deserve to suck the marrow out of the bones of the workforce.


I suppose he couldn't afford him.


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## Nvsparky (May 2, 2012)

eejack said:


> My perspective is slightly different. I owe it to the folks who came before me and fought for my conditions and my benefits to preserve and even enhance those conditions and benefits. If we as individuals allow things, the contractor has a real reason to continue to ask for more and provide less from everyone.
> 
> I would be the first to help out if the situation warranted it - an early shutdown to help a customer or staying a bit late to finish a critical task. We are supposed to work with the contractor, it is a relationship built on compromise and mutual beneficence.
> 
> ...


 couldn't say it better my self


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## zman98 (Apr 7, 2014)

Really? Never heard of this.Overtime is stated in the CBA.Why is there not a steward appointed by the hall, to take control of these issues?There set rules for starting and ending times.


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## 25yrvet (Oct 1, 2014)

I've been asked to come in early for regular pay on several occasions. I don't know why some members think they have the right to change the collective agreement either. It.s especialy wrong when the elecrical steward on the job is the one letting you know. I thought this was just a 353 problem, guess not. 
Our Business Manager/Financial Secretary has addressed this issue lately in our news letter and explained that the member's were only doing themselves financial harm and went on to explain why.
I believe we should hit this problem hard and direct. Card the members on site and have them answer to the Executive Board, but that's just me. You could call your Rep at the hall and see what he can do. Try anomalously if possible.


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## Phatstax (Feb 16, 2014)

Sounds like things haven't gotten better despite your best efforts. Maybe it's time some "hall trash" come in and shake things up. Some kontractors try to wipe their asses with the agreement and then cry like babies when the "radicals" come in and start pushing back. Love em or hate em, there is a need for the brothers who take care of business while the members are hiding in the weeds.


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## Locknutz (Sep 7, 2012)

Quick update, was transferred to different job with same contractor. 

Talked to a brother of mine recently, who was on the job with me, he stated he was asked to come in at 3AM for straight pay on a different job. He told them not unless OT was involved. 

I hope my actions influenced his and possibly others will speak up.


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## 25yrvet (Oct 1, 2014)

I find that the attitudes of many newer members over the last 10 years, but especially over the past 5 have gotten bad. No loyalty to the Hall at all just me me me. I don't know if it's because they mostly come from the non union sector and that was the attitude they were tought or the younger generation is just selfish. Even their attitudes towards fellow members have gone for a sh't.
How do we fix this, any thoughts?


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

25yrvet said:


> I find that the attitudes of many newer members over the last 10 years, but especially over the past 5 have gotten bad. No loyalty to the Hall at all just me me me. I don't know if it's because they mostly come from the non union sector and that was the attitude they were tought or the younger generation is just selfish. Even their attitudes towards fellow members have gone for a sh't.
> How do we fix this, any thoughts?


Raise your kids to think about others before themselves.


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## 25yrvet (Oct 1, 2014)

To NVSparkie

I have worked for foreman that promised work, or to stay on the job to the end only to realize at layoff time I was just a number. Most likely it was the foreman trying to look good to his contractor, or look better then the other foreman on the job and I was the tool he used at that time. You soon realize who is being honest and who is not "ACTIONS TRUMP WORDS" and trust is earned. \
As far as your Collective Agreement goes, those are the rules. For you and your contractor. Know-one on any job, anywhere, has the right to make changes at their own discretion. KNOW-ONE. If you come across someone who thinks they do, report them to your local E-Board.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

25yrvet said:


> I find that the attitudes of many newer members over the last 10 years, but especially over the past 5 have gotten bad. No loyalty to the Hall at all just me me me. I don't know if it's because they mostly come from the non union sector and that was the attitude they were tought or the younger generation is just selfish. Even their attitudes towards fellow members have gone for a sh't.
> How do we fix this, any thoughts?


I think most organized hands want to do the right thing, they just need to be led down the right path. I was recently on a job were an organized hand didn't want to follow the break times, had to explain the battle our past members have had to get break and he was f'n it up by not taking it. Then explained that if contractor sees him not taking break they will think you don't need it. Sometime you have to put things in perspective. He got in line.


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## 25yrvet (Oct 1, 2014)

That's gr8 when that guy is in the minority, when they make up a majority it's very hard to make them tow the line. An example I've come across when it's a small job full of company steadies.


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## zman98 (Apr 7, 2014)

25yrvet said:


> I find that the attitudes of many newer members over the last 10 years, but especially over the past 5 have gotten bad. No loyalty to the Hall at all just me me me. I don't know if it's because they mostly come from the non union sector and that was the attitude they were tought or the younger generation is just selfish. Even their attitudes towards fellow members have gone for a sh't.
> How do we fix this, any thoughts?



I'm a 25 year member of LU 98,so I've been through good times and bad times.It comes in something like 6 year cycles and the kids that come into the program at different times and who they are working depending on when they came in have a huge effect in my opinion.
Some of these kids come in to the program when times are good are the so called journeymen, who are supposed to be teaching them the trade are just showing them how to be hall trash.
I run work from time to time and don't have a problem calling someone out if their work is sloppy or their laying down, because the job is ending,be that an apprentice or a journeyman.I can understand when s is having a bad day.But when you continue to show the same bad attitude it's time to go.
When an apprentice gets laid out B.A.'s want to know why.And if the kid has a bad attitude or poor work ethic,He willed be called down to see an agent and have a hard talking to.
Some guy's don't want to teach these kids the trade,because they feel they will take their job from them,but they forget these kids will be paying their pension.
These kids coming in need to be taught the history of the IBEW,the trade and respect.


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## 25yrvet (Oct 1, 2014)

Some guy's don't want to teach these kids the trade,because they feel they will take their job from them,but they forget these kids will be paying their pension.
These kids coming in need to be taught the history of the IBEW,the trade and respect.

100% agrree with your statement


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## zman98 (Apr 7, 2014)

25yrvet said:


> Some guy's don't want to teach these kids the trade,because they feel they will take their job from them,but they forget these kids will be paying their pension.
> These kids coming in need to be taught the history of the IBEW,the trade and respect.
> 
> 100% agrree with your statement



It's just a shame,when you see all these kids putting posts up asking questions about interviews into the program and so many older brothers can't give them a straight answer.But I guess different locals handle their own business practices their own way.
I can only comment on my own local and how it is run, I'm a union guy for life,through bad times or good times.No offense to the non union guys who post on this thread. You do what you gotta do to provide for your family. 
I personally am 100% union.Being accepted into the union was the greatest the career descion I've ever made.
To all the apps.This isn't a part time job ,it's a longtime career. So my best my advice to you kids is step up make up your mind .**** or get the pot.
Don't take someone else's spot, if your going to quit in a year or two .


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Part of the job is to train your replacement.


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## zman98 (Apr 7, 2014)

eejack said:


> Part of the job is to train your replacement.



Yes it is. But just saying some guys don't won't to teach these kids anything for fear of not having a job.
So where does that leave us?
Wow.When I went through the program we were trained to be the best,and I still believe this today.
When I first got there was no tolerance and you learned.And I am the same way 25 years later.


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## 25yrvet (Oct 1, 2014)

An electrician does electrical work.......A Journeyman teaches electrical work


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

zman98 said:


> Yes it is. But just saying some guys don't won't to teach these kids anything for fear of not having a job.
> So where does that leave us?
> Wow.When I went through the program we were trained to be the best,and I still believe this today.
> When I first got there was no tolerance and you learned.And I am the same way 25 years later.


It is up to us to convince our compatriots, whether through example or though dialog, that we can ensure our future by teaching our past to the present.

We as the elder generation need to find a way to reach out - perhaps it is by being hip enough to understand the lingo, or by being pleasant and caring, or by being generous with our experience, or by some other means.

When we were pups someone reached out to us and showed us the mysteries and it is up to us to do the same.

Be kind, be pleasant and be firm. Find a connection, be that old timer that the kids talk about. 

You were that rotten kid who didn't listen once...:thumbsup:


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## zman98 (Apr 7, 2014)

25yrvet said:


> An electrician does electrical work.......A Journeyman teaches


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## zman98 (Apr 7, 2014)

25yrvet said:


> An electrician does electrical work.......A Journeyman teaches electrical work



Well put and the younger generation or least some have lost the vision.


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## Tsmil (Jul 17, 2011)

zman98 said:


> Well put and the younger generation or least some have lost the vision.



And who's fault is that? Each generation strives to make it better and easier for our kids. Unfortunately, technology has evolved so quickly in the last century that instead of the kids learning values, they have become lazy and feel entitled. This is not true for all, but for many.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

eejack said:


> Part of the job is to train your replacement.


There are many electricians who just go with the flow for years and years and dont really know what they're doing anymore. They just do what they r told. I find those guys don't teach apprentices because the apprentice knows more than them. They knew it so long ago and don't upgrade, they forget.


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## zman98 (Apr 7, 2014)

I just find it funny that the guys who do nothing are always the first ones too complain ,bad mouth the ones who actually want to work and try to bring everyone else on the job down to their standards.Oh how they forget your reputation follows your name in this business.They'll do anything to screw the contractor and are the first ones to call guys who do their job shoppies.


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## 25yrvet (Oct 1, 2014)

My fave is the company stedy that bills extra time, material, gas and what ever he can and the contractor thinks he's great. You show up and give a good hours work for a good hours pay and your out the door after doing all the heavy work. Makes me laugh.


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## 25yrvet (Oct 1, 2014)

In the car plants I get the STEDY with the 50lb tool box and 5X the tool list. Most of the time I have to show him how to do things.


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## zman98 (Apr 7, 2014)

I understand your point exactly.Their are guys who never miss a beat and are totally worthless,then you have good workers who can't catch a break .


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