# JATC, make it better please! Pipe bending bootcamp etc



## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

you have to eat the elephant kid....do ya know how? 1 bite at a time..so ..look at it like this... a little of this and a little of that is easier to remember ....a kick..a stub..a b2b..someday a guy will be yelling 8 things at once to you...there is a method to the madness...1 bite at a time good luck and welcome.:thumbup:


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## Wireman191 (Aug 28, 2011)

Welcome.
The JATC will run you through everything just enough to get the hang of it and then move on. 
Pipe bending is more on the job experience then in the classroom. Pay attention to the trig because that is a huge part in it, Well it all actually comes back to trig.
If you are not getting pipe bending with the contractor you are working for now I suggest asking to be moved to one that will get you that experience.:thumbsup:
GOOD LUCK!


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

chadw said:


> I'm halfway through my first year. I like what the program is about and am still fired up to learn. It just seems like the ibew could take the next step and really start cranking us out to be pros. Give any of us first years about 20 hours of one on one with some pro pipe benders and run us through a boot camp where we can practice and learn completely. It would pay off in the long wrong, instead of learning a little bit here, not doing it again for weeks, forgetting, having to retrain, etc. The contractors would be happy and we could steamroll what the ibew is about. Non-union shops wouldn't stand a chance...


Get your self a 3/4" pipe bender and buy 100' of 3/4 EMT .

Use the book that came with the bender IDEAL Benders come with a book get some ply wood set it up in your garage are where ever you can and practice take pictures so you can show someone else and also you can follow your progress..but remember you want to be the best..:thumbsup:

I say to practice on 3/4" because it is harder than 1/2" but it will teach you to respect the cost of pipe and once you master 3/4"EMT you will be worth more than all the rest.........Good luck and welcome to the forum:thumbup::thumbup:


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## jordan_paul (Oct 4, 2011)

chadw said:


> I'm halfway through my first year. I like what the program is about and am still fired up to learn. It just seems like the ibew could take the next step and really start cranking us out to be pros. Give any of us first years about 20 hours of one on one with some pro pipe benders and run us through a boot camp where we can practice and learn completely. It would pay off in the long wrong, instead of learning a little bit here, not doing it again for weeks, forgetting, having to retrain, etc. The contractors would be happy and we could steamroll what the ibew is about. Non-union shops wouldn't stand a chance...


They always will stand a chance because the union first years move pipe and get coffee for the first year and a half. In a non union shop, on a new apprentice day one they will be learning how to bend pipe, layout, pull wire, terminate, meter stuff etc. The union will never be able to compete with non-union simply because of the "pecking order." 2nd years thinking they are better then first years, thrid years thinking they are better then 2nd years etc.

And this is comming from an apprentice who is in the union but started non-union. If I wasn't working for a small company who disregards 98% of the IBEW rules I would have went back to non-union a long time ago. How many union second years do you know that run jobs and has a van?

My biggest tip> Get off of the big jobs. Find a small company, disregard the bull**** tool list and actually learn the trade. A "pipe bending boot camp" won't do anything for you because you'll forget everything since you'll be moving the pipe for two years not using it. Hell, none of the JATC courses will do anything for you, they are so boring you are going to forget most of what you learned within the first week.


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## Wireman191 (Aug 28, 2011)

jordan_paul said:


> They always will stand a chance because the union first years move pipe and get coffee for the first year and a half. In a non union shop, on a new apprentice day one they will be learning how to bend pipe, layout, pull wire, terminate, meter stuff etc. The union will never be able to compete with non-union simply because of the "pecking order." 2nd years thinking they are better then first years, thrid years thinking they are better then 2nd years etc.
> 
> And this is comming from an apprentice who is in the union but started non-union. If I wasn't working for a small company who disregards 98% of the IBEW rules I would have went back to non-union a long time ago. How many union second years do you know that run jobs and has a van?
> 
> My biggest tip> Get off of the big jobs. Find a small company, disregard the bull**** tool list and actually learn the trade. A "pipe bending boot camp" won't do anything for you because you'll forget everything since you'll be moving the pipe for two years not using it. Hell, none of the JATC courses will do anything for you, they are so boring you are going to forget most of what you learned within the first week.


 Kobbler?


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Wireman191 said:


> Kobbler?


Who?:blink::laughing:


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## Wireman191 (Aug 28, 2011)

HARRY304E said:


> Who?:blink::laughing:


 :laughing:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

:thumbsup::jester:


Wireman191 said:


> :laughing:


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## Wireman191 (Aug 28, 2011)

harry304e said:


> :thumbsup::jester:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Wireman191 said:


> View attachment 11342


:laughing::laughing::thumbup::laughing::laughing:


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## Wireman191 (Aug 28, 2011)

I think your dog needs to see a dentist, Hes upper teeth are looking a little weird.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

jordan_paul said:


> They always will stand a chance because the union first years move pipe and get coffee for the first year and a half.


Your whole post was ********, but I'll just pick out the first sentence for now.

I'm a union member, I went through the entire union apprenticeship program, and my very first day on my very first job I was dispatched to a big pulp mill and they had me set up with a Journeyman old-timer learning how to bend 4" Rigid on a hydraulic bender.

Furthermore, I don't ever recall dealing with other apprentices that had a condescending attitude toward people higher or lower year them in your "pecking order." All the guys I went through the program with would go the extra mile to help out any of the other guys.

Maybe you're in a s**tty local.


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## chris856 (Jun 12, 2009)

You can spend as much time in the lab and practice at home all you want but it still won't click like it does when you do it eight hours a day on the job. I started out a bit different than most people in that I had full time school eight hours a day, five days a week for three months before I set foot on a job. We spent tons of time in the pipe bending lab, and while it might have made things a bit smoother starting on the job, it didn't compare to actually doing it in a real setting.

In the lab I knew the calculations for offsets, deducts and gain for ninties, and how to do three bend saddles but I would spend a lot of time on it and dog leg everything and get frustrated as all hell, but once I got on the job and did it for a week straight it all gelled. 

If you feel like you are lacking then I would just get a bundle of half inch EMT, a bender, and The Benfield guide and go to town. It will be as helpful as all the extra time in the lab I got.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Wireman191 said:


> I think your dog needs to see a dentist, Hes upper teeth are looking a little weird.


Those teeth are designed to rip through the back of someones pants leg or to tear open a hand.
Stay calm, don't run..


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## Gaterhater (Nov 15, 2011)

HARRY304E said:


> Get your self a 3/4" pipe bender and buy 100' of 3/4 EMT .
> 
> Use the book that came with the bender IDEAL Benders come with a book get some ply wood set it up in your garage are where ever you can and practice take pictures so you can show someone else and also you can follow your progress..but remember you want to be the best..:thumbsup:
> 
> I say to practice on 3/4" because it is harder than 1/2" but it will teach you to respect the cost of pipe and once you master 3/4"EMT you will be worth more than all the rest.........Good luck and welcome to the forum:thumbup::thumbup:


Not a bad ideas Harry. I may just start suggesting this to some of my greenies.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

chadw said:


> I'm halfway through my first year. I like what the program is about and am still fired up to learn. It just seems like the ibew could take the next step and really start cranking us out to be pros. Give any of us first years about 20 hours of one on one with some pro pipe benders and run us through a boot camp where we can practice and learn completely. It would pay off in the long wrong, instead of learning a little bit here, not doing it again for weeks, forgetting, having to retrain, etc. The contractors would be happy and we could steamroll what the ibew is about. Non-union shops wouldn't stand a chance...


Until you get the conduit and bender in your hands practice by noticing how others have done it. Look at every run you see out in town and think how you could have done it better with less bends. Grab a wire coat hanger and practice scale sized runs with it. Go in you basement and use the wire to imagine how to get from point A to B.
Bending conduit is 10% classroom, 10% creative thinking and 80% practice.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

There is more to electrical work than pipe bending, stay with you books, learn what you are doing at the moment, become proficient at what you are doing. If you need to bend pipe you will get the chance and if you are luckily enough to get drawn into one of the more technical specialities, then pipe bending wasn't for you.


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## jordan_paul (Oct 4, 2011)

erics37 said:


> Your whole post was ********, but I'll just pick out the first sentence for now.
> 
> I'm a union member, I went through the entire union apprenticeship program, and my very first day on my very first job I was dispatched to a big pulp mill and they had me set up with a Journeyman old-timer learning how to bend 4" Rigid on a hydraulic bender.
> 
> ...


Well congradulations on your experience in the IBEW, in a different local in a different country. I don't care about you or your local, but I know up here about 25 percent if not more of licensed guys don't know how to even wire a 3 way switch, because all they bend is pipe at some of the steel mills or car plants. They are all installers, a lot of them couldn't trouble shoot a machine breakdown if their life depended on it. A lot of them are lazy, on big jobs they take more breaks then the company allows, go hide, take 45 minute ****s etc. Now how can you even be close to being top of your field with an attitude like that? 

From what I've seen a lot of union guys from a few different locals (we have a lot of travelers) aremt worth their wage and are only in the trade for the money.


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## bill39 (Sep 4, 2009)

FYI: Being able to wire a 3-way switch or trouble shoot a machine doesn't mean you are an electrician if you are NOT able to bend pipe right the FIRST time or rig a big wire pull too.

There are many facets to being a well-rounded electrician. Unfortunately, few get the opportunity to gain experience in all areas.


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## chris856 (Jun 12, 2009)

brian john said:


> There is more to electrical work than pipe bending, stay with you books, learn what you are doing at the moment, become proficient at what you are doing. If you need to bend pipe you will get the chance and if you are luckily enough to get drawn into one of the more technical specialities, then pipe bending wasn't for you.


We had a substitute come in one day when we were still studying pipe bending and what he was showing us was a joke. A few weeks later my buddy took a PLC class from the same guy and it was a whole other story.


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

jrannis said:


> Those teeth are designed to rip through the back of someones pants leg or to tear open a hand.
> Stay calm, don't run..


I think they are designed to break rodent's necks..?


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## Acadian9 (Jun 6, 2009)

chadw said:


> I'm halfway through my first year. I like what the program is about and am still fired up to learn. It just seems like the ibew could take the next step and really start cranking us out to be pros. Give any of us first years about 20 hours of one on one with some pro pipe benders and run us through a boot camp where we can practice and learn completely. It would pay off in the long wrong, instead of learning a little bit here, not doing it again for weeks, forgetting, having to retrain, etc. The contractors would be happy and we could steamroll what the ibew is about. Non-union shops wouldn't stand a chance...


I've done pipe bending at the JAC for orientation. I've done it in tradeschool. I've done it at the union hall for a 16 hour supplementary course.

If you ask me today to do a back to back, I'll use a coupling. 

I've spent very little time on the job bending pipe and forget most of the things I used to know (for the day I was doing it.) Eventually I'll get a chance to do it and so will you.


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## chadw (Jan 10, 2012)

Gaterhater said:


> Not a bad ideas Harry. I may just start suggesting this to some of my greenies.


 Thanks guys, I'm going to do this. It's $1.69 ft for 1/2 at Lowes, cheapest I could find around here.


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## chadw (Jan 10, 2012)

Thanks everyone for the input. It's helpful to hear all of this really. I just want to add that I like the program and my experience so far. Add on the bootcamp and make the apprenticeship program more powerful, it will help us all out. 
I can't even begin to explain the wide variety of skills I've already learned in 80 working days. It's hard to imagine really. And eveyone has been more than helpful at the jobsite, higher up apprentices and journeymen. As long as you got the right attitude and open ears anyway. :thumbup:


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

chadw said:


> I'm halfway through my first year. I like what the program is about and am still fired up to learn. It just seems like the ibew could take the next step and really start cranking us out to be pros. Give any of us first years about 20 hours of one on one with some pro pipe benders and run us through a boot camp where we can practice and learn completely. It would pay off in the long wrong, instead of learning a little bit here, not doing it again for weeks, forgetting, having to retrain, etc. The contractors would be happy and we could steamroll what the ibew is about. Non-union shops wouldn't stand a chance...


It can be frustrating, I know. On the occasions that you are working with someone who knows pipe bending what you need to do is to grab your pocket note book and write down ALL of the steps to do a certain bend. If you can't replicate it later either you did not understand what you were being taught or the journeyman did not know how to teach.


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## chris856 (Jun 12, 2009)

One thing I do agree with the OP is that so far (I'm half way through my second year so I don't know much) it seems like they do just touch on a subject and quickly move on. We only spent a week on code the entire year so far. At the school I went to before, we spent almost the entire second year on chapters 2, 3, and 4 of the NEC.
That being said I would say the JATC covers a much broader scope, and they do offer free classes if you want to expand on one certain subject, at least in my local.


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## James428 (Jan 12, 2012)

bill39 said:


> FYI: Being able to wire a 3-way switch or trouble shoot a machine doesn't mean you are an electrician if you are NOT able to bend pipe right the FIRST time or rig a big wire pull too.
> 
> There are many facets to being a well-rounded electrician. Unfortunately, few get the opportunity to gain experience in all areas.


I agree with bill, it's an ever changing field so knowing a lot about one thing does not make you a journeyman craftsman but having a well rounded knowledge is what separates you from a rat and an IBEW journeyman electrician.


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## James428 (Jan 12, 2012)

jordan_paul said:


> Well congradulations on your experience in the IBEW, in a different local in a different country. I don't care about you or your local, but I know up here about 25 percent if not more of licensed guys don't know how to even wire a 3 way switch, because all they bend is pipe at some of the steel mills or car plants. They are all installers, a lot of them couldn't trouble shoot a machine breakdown if their life depended on it. A lot of them are lazy, on big jobs they take more breaks then the company allows, go hide, take 45 minute ****s etc. Now how can you even be close to being top of your field with an attitude like that?
> 
> From what I've seen a lot of union guys from a few different locals (we have a lot of travelers) aremt worth their wage and are only in the trade for the money.


You must have applied at a ****ty local.


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## James428 (Jan 12, 2012)

Hmmm...


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

James428 said:


> I agree with bill, it's an ever changing field so knowing a lot about one thing does not make you a journeyman craftsman but having a well rounded knowledge is what separates you from a rat and an IBEW journeyman electrician.





> what separates you from a *rat* and an IBEW journeyman electrician.


Really??:laughing:


Not bad for post #1 James..:laughing:

Keep in mind that most of the Electricians on this forum are not Union,
in fact the Unions door have been closed in the face of most non Union guys without just cause.

Calling them RATS is rubbing it in.


Welcome to the forum....


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## James428 (Jan 12, 2012)

HARRY304E said:


> Really??:laughing:
> 
> Not bad for post #1 James..:laughing:
> 
> ...


Sorry about that fellas, I am from an area where the union is pretty strong but still competitive with the non union so... Hopefully no hard feelings


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

Us rats are your brothers. We're all electricians here. Some have chosen a free agent route for any number of reasons, all of which are valid.


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## James428 (Jan 12, 2012)

knowshorts said:


> Us rats are your brothers. We're all electricians here. Some have chosen a free agent route for any number of reasons, all of which are valid.


Like I said, no hard feelings.


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## chadw (Jan 10, 2012)

What i know of our local 265, they are recruiting local non-union journeyman, that are skilled and with good work ethics... the competition with non-union is pretty heavy. They pay their foreman well enough to keep but dont pay their journeyman much more than $15 hr


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## Acadian9 (Jun 6, 2009)

James428 said:


> but having a well rounded knowledge is what separates you from a rat and an IBEW journeyman electrician.


There's garbage union guys too just so you know. I've seen someone splice the two travelers of a three way switch and put a tail. :no: 

There's also knowledgeable and professional open-shop guys. 

Besides, RATS backwards is STAR! :thumbsup:


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## James428 (Jan 12, 2012)

Acadian9 said:


> There's garbage union guys too just so you know. I've seen someone splice the two travelers of a three way switch and put a tail. :no:
> 
> There's also knowledgeable and professional open-shop guys.
> 
> Besides, RATS backwards is STAR! :thumbsup:


The garbage union guys I do agree with there are some on both sides I have worked with some that went through apprenticeship and you wonder why,. So let me reiterate myself that's what separates a journeyman from a journeyman craftsman.


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

If you want to stay on top in our trade you must be prepared to go back to school on occasion as well...I have taken several classes over my 30yrs.. our local independent contractors assoc. has excellent 12 week classes for approx $300....code changes/plcs/motors/etc check them out if available in your area..all are welcome union and non union alike..3hrs 1x or 2x a week what I learned in 1980 is alot different now. Attendance is taken and testing is done..certification on completion.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

James428 said:


> I agree with bill, it's an ever changing field so knowing a lot about one thing does not make you a journeyman craftsman but having a well rounded knowledge is what separates you from a* rat* and an IBEW journeyman electrician.


 Rat is a disgusting term to use when discussing anyone, much less another electrician. Try to drop it from your vocabulary.


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## Acadian9 (Jun 6, 2009)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflatable_rat


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## local134gt (Dec 24, 2008)

jordan_paul said:


> *I don't care about you or your local*...........* Now how can you even be close to being top of your field with an attitude like that*?


You sound like a real jagg off, with an attitude like that you'd be digging ditches all day out here. You'd be begging for a promotion to material bitch :laughing:


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## cwsims84 (Jan 21, 2012)

If you want to learn so bad does as another guy said... Buy yourself a bender and some EMT and go at it... you will be better for and more employable. at about $0.47 ft, thats only $47 and thats quite a few bends!


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## jordan_paul (Oct 4, 2011)

local134gt said:


> You sound like a real jagg off, with an attitude like that you'd be digging ditches all day out here. You'd be begging for a promotion to material bitch :laughing:


Meh, my attitude allows me a steady job in a small shop with a van and some respect. It's not my fault I'm better then you.


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