# 2014 nec 404.2 (c) (4)



## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)




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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

chrisrappl said:


> I attended a code class last night presented by two very experienced former inspectors and code instructors. I have worked with these guys for almost 20 years and they always know their stuff. We were covering 2014 Switches Controlling Lighting Loads - 404.2 (C) (4).
> 
> An electrical drawing was put up on the board of a residential project with switches colored green to indicate where a grounded conductor was required and switches colored red to indicate where a grounded conductor was not required. A statement was made by one of the instructors that the bathroom lighting switch did not require a grounded conductor. I asked why not and was told that a bathroom is not a habitable room.
> 
> ...


...a bathroom is not a habitable room, neither is a garage, hallway or closet


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

I agree with 360.

BTW, welcome to the forum.

Pete


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## luckylerado (Mar 19, 2010)

I read it as a grounded conductor IS required in bathrooms.


(C ) Switches Controlling Lighting Loads. The grounded circuit
conductor for the controlled lighting circuit shall be provided 
at the location where switches control lighting loads that are 
supplied by a grounded general-purpose branch circuit for other 
than the following:
(1) Where conductors enter the box enclosing the switch 
through a raceway, provided that the raceway is large 
enough for all contained conductors, including a grounded 
conductor
(2) Where the box enclosing the switch is accessible for the 
installation of an additional or replacement cable without 
removing finish materials
(3) Where snap switches with integral enclosures comply with 
300.15(E)
(4) Where a switch does not serve a habitable room or bathroom
(5) Where multiple switch locations control the same lighting 
load such that the entire floor area of the room or space is 
visible from the single or combined switch locations
(6) Where lighting in the area is controlled by automatic means
(7) Where a switch controls a receptacle load


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Bathrooms are THE classic room that needs smart switching.

The ENTIRE purpose of having neutral conductors brought to a switch box is so that various smart switches can function -- without putting residual current down the grounding conductor.

[ Some of the earliest smart switches were doing just that. ]

I'm in luckylerado's camp.

Bathrooms and bedrooms are the primary targets for smart switching -- as these are the lights that are known to be left on long after the need.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

luckylerado said:


> I read it as a grounded conductor IS required in bathrooms.
> 
> 
> (C ) Switches Controlling Lighting Loads. The grounded circuit
> ...


So if we read that way (the way it is actually written) the grounded conductor is not required to be at light switch in any habitable room.


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## luckylerado (Mar 19, 2010)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> So if we read that way (the way it is actually written) the grounded conductor is not required to be at light switch in any habitable room.


No. Granted it could be written more betterer but paraphasing it says:

shall be installed... unless... switch does not serve a habitable room or a bathroom.

or cancel the double negative

shall be installed where a switch does serve a habitable or a bathroom.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

Pete m. said:


> I agree with 360.
> 
> BTW, welcome to the forum.
> 
> Pete


...Its a weird code, due to the fact that bathrooms are the rooms which are most popular with sensors


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

I read that very clearly as a grounded conductor is required in rooms that are habitable as well as a bathroom. Thus the bathroom is not a habitable room but the grounded conductor is required there.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I read that very clearly as a grounded conductor is required in rooms that are habitable as well as a bathroom. Thus the* bathroom is not a habitable room** but the grounded conductor is required there.*






luckylerado said:


> I read it as a grounded conductor IS required in bathrooms.
> 
> 
> (C ) Switches Controlling Lighting Loads. The grounded circuit
> ...


the bathroom is not required to have it


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Agree with Denis: It's required everywhere except the following... the room isn't habitable or a bathroom.

So if it is habitable or a bathroom, the grounded conductor needs to be present.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

telsa said:


> Bathrooms are THE classic room that needs smart switching.
> 
> The ENTIRE purpose of having neutral conductors brought to a switch box is so that various smart switches can function -- without putting residual current down the grounding conductor.
> 
> ...


Which is why the code was made in the first place>>>>




> Informational Note: The provision for a (future) grounded
> conductor is to complete a circuit path for *electronic light-
> ing control devices*.



~CS~


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

"(4) Where a switch does not serve a habitable room or bathroom"

define this statement


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

360max said:


> "(4) Where a switch does not serve a habitable room or bathroom"
> 
> define this statement



Single guys ? Fathers w/o daughters....?


:laughing:~CS~:jester:


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

360max said:


> "(4) Where a switch does not serve a habitable room or bathroom"
> 
> define this statement


 If the switch controls a light that is not located in a living space within a dwelling. An attic, an unfinished basement, a garage, a bathroom, a hallway would all be considered "non habitable" by building codes.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

Big John said:


> Agree with Denis: It's required everywhere except the following... the room isn't habitable or a bathroom.
> 
> So if it is habitable or a* bathroom, the grounded conductor needs to be present.*






Big John said:


> If the switch controls a light that is not located in a living space within a dwelling. An attic, an unfinished basement, a garage, a *bathroom,* a hallway would* all be considered "non habitable*" by building codes.


:001_huh:


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Next up, bath 'mood lighting' ......:whistling2:~CS~


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

360max said:


> :001_huh:


 Ayuh, building codes don't consider bathrooms habitable spaces. That's why the NEC exception specifically includes them as a separate item where neutrals are required.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

360max said:


> "(4) Where a switch does not serve a habitable room or bathroom"
> 
> define this statement


The switch does not serve a habitable room or the switch does not serve a bathroom. Thus if the switch serves a bathroom then it needs a grounded conductor. 

Here is the thinking -- if they didn't want a neutral in a bathroom why would they even mention it in this exception. Since a bathroom is not a habitable room then there would be no need to mention bathroom. They mention bathroom because it is basically an exception to the non habitable areas.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Betcha sales in 14-2-2 /12-2-2 are up for fish jobs now.....~CS~


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## chrisrappl (Jan 18, 2011)

I asked my daughter to clarify this reference since she works editing scientific journals. This is what she had to say:

Bad wording. It's saying "you need a grounded conductor when it's not not a bathroom," so if it IS a bathroom, you DO need a grounded conductor. 

I can't blame the instructors for getting that wrong because it's basically phrased in the most confusing way possible.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

double negatives confuse us.....~CS~:no:


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

An exception to an exception.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

chrisrappl said:


> I asked my daughter to clarify this reference since she works editing scientific journals. This is what she had to say:
> 
> Bad wording. It's saying "you need a grounded conductor when it's not not a bathroom," so if it IS a bathroom, you DO need a grounded conductor.
> 
> I can't blame the instructors for getting that wrong because it's basically phrased in the most confusing way possible.


Your daughter and I concur.... Look at my post this morning. It is as backstay stated- an exception to the exception.

And yes I agree it is worded poorly


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

I believe in order to interpret this differently there would need to be a comma between the 2 events. Thus



> (4) Where a switch does not serve a habitable room or bathroom


 has a different meaning than this


> (4) Where a switch does not serve a habitable room*, *or bathroom


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

it is worded somewhat confusingly. However, those who do not understand it should brush up on their or, nor, and, nand, and eor logic and then it would probably make perfect sense.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

luckylerado said:


> No. Granted it could be written more betterer but paraphasing it says:
> 
> shall be installed... unless... switch does not serve a habitable room or a bathroom.
> 
> ...


Ok....now it is not required in a commercial building because those rooms are not habitable.


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## luckylerado (Mar 19, 2010)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> Ok....now it is not required in a commercial building because those rooms are not habitable.


I believe that commercial bathrooms using NM or MC wiring method still require a grounded conductor.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

360max said:


> "(4) Where a switch does not serve a habitable room or bathroom"
> 
> define this statement





Dennis Alwon said:


> The switch does not serve a habitable room or the switch does not serve a bathroom. Thus if the switch serves a bathroom then it needs a grounded conductor.
> 
> Here is the thinking -- if they didn't want a neutral in a bathroom why would they even mention it in this exception. Since a bathroom is not a habitable room then there would be no need to mention bathroom. They mention bathroom because it is basically an exception to the non habitable areas.


...Dennis, its worded quit clearly, they list bathrooms to remove any ambiguity . BTW, the word 'or' is used in place of a comma


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

360max said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=101IQAWIvqk


here, let Holt explain it to you


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

360max said:


> ...Dennis, its worded quit clearly, they list bathrooms to remove any ambiguity...


 I can't tell what your position is. You seem to be disagreeing but you're saying the same thing as Dennis?


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

360max said:


> ...Dennis, its worded quit clearly, they list bathrooms to remove any ambiguity *. BTW, the word 'or' is used in place of a comma*


In what language does "or" replace a comma. Sorry that is just not correct


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> In what language does "or" replace a comma. Sorry that is just not correct


or1
ôr/Submit
conjunction
1.
used to link alternatives.
"a cup of tea or coffee"


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

360max said:


> or1
> ôr/Submit
> conjunction
> 1.
> ...


a cup of tea or coffee. Does that mean a cup of tea or a cup of coffee?


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## chrisrappl (Jan 18, 2011)

Please read the comments below the video in this link:

http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=157261


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

I have this imagine of the NFPA's committee of punctuation and syntax correlation looking like a chinese fire drill over all this.....~C:jester:S~


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## luckylerado (Mar 19, 2010)

360max said:


> here, let Holt explain it to you


He is wrong bud. 

Here is a quote from the commentary in the handbook.

_"..The grounded conductor is also not 
required where the area served is not a habitable room or bathroom,
or the load is a switched receptacle. ..."


_


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

The handbook as well as Mike Holt are opinions only. We all have them and in the end the inspector is the one to call this one out. 

This is why I think it is important to make proposals to the code. It is not hard to do. If you read the code in a certain way then make it read like that. Even if they reject it they will explain why and you can usually find out what they really are saying.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

By the way the only way I would agree with this is if a bathroom was considered a habitable are. It is not IMO.

The main reason this code section was written was because of occupancy sensor in bathrooms so why would they say a grounded conductor was not needed in that area. I think that was what Don was alluding to in post 28



> The IRC defines habitable space as a space in a building for living, sleeping, eating, or cooking. Bathrooms, toilet rooms, closets, halls, storage or utility spaces and similar areas are not considered habitable spaces


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