# Commercial steel stud romex installation



## Shockdoc

So am i a hack? I made some good money with a cheap bid. :thumbup:


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## Rudeboy

No mc cable?
:whistling2:
:laughing:


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## RIVETER

If you made money, that is what it's all about. I wouldn't consider you a hack based on the information that I have.


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## Shockdoc

Rudeboy said:


> No mc cable?
> :whistling2:
> :laughing:


No mc ....12/2 romex and front strap P&S plastic boxes , some pvc sleeving over the cieling level and emt work on top of the partitions for 277v lighting. Did the rough in 1 1/2 days complete. pulled $7500 on the rough using only about $500 in material.


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## RIVETER

Shockdoc said:


> No mc ....12/2 romex and front strap P&S plastic boxes , some pvc sleeving over the cieling level and emt work on top of the partitions for 277v lighting. Did the rough in 1 1/2 days complete. pulled $7500 on the rough using only about $500 in material.


If it was a safe and legal install...congratulations.


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## Rudeboy

Well, if you don't violate 334.12...

I've never roped a commercial building with nm but I've run it through metal studs before.

What did you use to secure the romex on the studs?

... and any photos handy?


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## B4T

I do it when ever I can.. much faster than MC :thumbsup:


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## 480sparky

Shockdoc said:


> No mc ....12/2 romex and front strap *P&S* plastic boxes , some pvc sleeving over the cieling level and emt work on top of the partitions for 277v lighting. Did the rough in 1 1/2 days complete. pulled $7500 on the rough using only about $500 in material.


Good thing you didn't say *Carlon* boxes. Then you would be branded a Hack for Life. :laughing:


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## B4T

480sparky said:


> Good thing you didn't say *Carlon* boxes. Then you would be branded a Hack for Life. :laughing:


Good to see your finally catching on with the program :thumbsup:


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## Shockdoc

Rudeboy said:


> Well, if you don't violate 334.12...
> 
> I've never roped a commercial building with nm but I've run it through metal studs before.
> 
> What did you use to secure the romex on the studs?
> 
> ... and any photos handy?


 I'm kind of a fabricater, I drill two 1/4" holes about 3/4" apart and slip a wire tie through the stud to secure my romex, I space them 6" from box,3' and so forth.


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## 480sparky

Black4Truck said:


> Good to see your finally catching on with the program :thumbsup:


You'll notice I never say I'm still using Carlon boxes any more on the forum.


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## Rudeboy

Shockdoc said:


> I'm kind of a fabricater, I drill two 1/4" holes about 3/4" apart and slip a wire tie through the stud to secure my romex, I space them 6" from box,3' and so forth.


I have the feeling inspectors here would sh!t a brick over that installation.
:thumbup:


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## Rudeboy

480sparky said:


> You'll notice I never say I'm still using Carlon boxes any more on the forum.


But you still are. Everyone uses them, even B4T.
:whistling2:


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## Shockdoc

Black4Truck said:


> I do it when ever I can.. much faster than MC :thumbsup:


You aint kidding , I wasn't expecting to finish up a 1/2 day early with the amount of space and devices we roughed in. Even the emt work for the lighting went fast. I will be using mc to loop out the lay in lighting since each office and area has one lighting box and the sub cieling is 12' above the susp. ceiling.


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## Shockdoc

Rudeboy said:


> I have the feeling inspectors here would sh!t a brick over that installation.
> :thumbup:


What would they like to see? Inspectors here appreciate wire ties since most hacks either electric tape in or use nothing at all..


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## Shockdoc

Black4Truck said:


> Good to see your finally catching on with the program :thumbsup:


Are the Carlon screw depth adjustment boxes emempt? I tend to use those on all kitchen and bathroom backsplash applications.


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## B4T

Rudeboy said:


> What did you use to secure the romex on the studs?
> 
> ... and any photos handy?


They also sell zip ties with a 1/8" eye you can put a screw through or 1/4" & 3/8" plastic clips work just as good


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## Bob Badger

An 11" tie wrap will make it around the stud and cable fine unless one side is rocked or something else is in the way.

FWIW the tie wraps with eyelets are expensive.


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## Rudeboy

Shockdoc said:


> What would they like to see? Inspectors here appreciate wire ties since most hacks either electric tape in or use nothing at all..


Oh I have no idea, something listed most likely. NM straps probably. I've used them when I ran NM in metal studs in the past and never have been called on it. 
It's kinda rare for me to do that.


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## Shockdoc

Bob Badger said:


> An 11" tie wrap will make it around the stud and cable fine unless one side is rocked or something else is in the way.
> 
> FWIW the tie wraps with eyelets are expensive.


The two holes take 20 seconds to drill and hold the wire(s) center of the stud.


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## Shockdoc

I need to replace my camera, I had some pics a while ago with 12/2 al spliced to 14/2 cu via staples to framing. The cust declined my rewiring offer and the house is still standing. I should just give him the fire bid estimate in advance.


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## MDShunk

Rudeboy said:


> I have the feeling inspectors here would sh!t a brick over that installation.
> :thumbup:


Doubtful. I've wrapped the stud with 33 or duct tape many a time to hold the cables. It's 100% compliant. His holes with zip ties method was also compliant, although slightly more expensive and time consuming. Cable securing devices are not required to be listed (although some are). They're only required to secure the cable.


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## Jlarson

Rudeboy said:


> I have the feeling inspectors here would sh!t a brick over that installation.
> :thumbup:


From what I have heard your inspectors would sh1t a brick if you changed a light bulb and didn't use the same brand for the replacement:laughing:


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## brian john

MDShunk said:


> Doubtful. I've wrapped the stud with 33 or duct tape many a time to hold the cables. I.


I have seen that done in several jurisdictions and it passed and should.


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## Bob Badger

Shockdoc said:


> The two holes take 20 seconds to drill and hold the wire(s) center of the stud.



And wrapping the stud takes 5 seconds and holds the cables in the center of the stud.

So our guys will do four for every one you do.:laughing:


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## B4T

Bob Badger said:


> And wrapping the stud takes 5 seconds and holds the cables in the center of the stud.
> 
> So our guys will do four for every one you do.:laughing:


The 11" wire tie is a great idea and I am going to start using it :thumbsup:


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## McClary’s Electrical

Rudeboy said:


> I have the feeling inspectors here would sh!t a brick over that installation.
> :thumbup:


 


On what grounds? personal preference?


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## Shockdoc

Bob Badger said:


> And wrapping the stud takes 5 seconds and holds the cables in the center of the stud.
> 
> So our guys will do four for every one you do.:laughing:


Maybe I'll loosen up om my OCD nextime:laughing:


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## Bob Badger

Shockdoc said:


> Maybe I'll loosen up om my OCD nextime:laughing:



Take the wrap, go once around the cable and then around the stud, this way it holds the cable in the middle.

An 11" wrap will handle about one cable this way, if you move up to 14" wraps you can gather up a few cables this way. 

But trust me, I have had to drill or punch holes like you did sometimes.


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## Rudeboy

mcclary's electrical said:


> On what grounds? personal preference?


As I said before if it doesn't violate 334.12...

I've never run romex in commercial buildings. I've always used MC. The biggest hurdle as I see is:

...NM cable shall not be permitted as follows:
334.12 (A)(2) Exposed in dropped or suspended ceilings in other 
than one- and two-family and multifamily dwellings 

I guess in the OP's case he sleeved it in PVC. Okay. Just seems like a pita to do that when you can just run mc.


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## speedfreakian

That's hilarious. Here in New Mexico our New Mexico electric code prohibits romex in any commercial establishment. I think I'm all for it.


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## Rudeboy

That might be the rule here in CA also. I've never really questioned it.


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## Bob Badger

speedfreakian said:


> That's hilarious. Here in New Mexico our New Mexico electric code prohibits romex in any commercial establishment. I think I'm all for it.



I always laugh when people that have no experience using NM in commercial work are against it.:laughing:


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## Shockdoc

Romex is 10x faster to work with and 40% cheaper to purchace than MC. Cheap customers who price shop want cheap prices, I like the fact all my other competitors priced MC, they made me more money . I lost two bids this year to others , can't beat em, join em. I play dirty pool also.


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## MarkyMark

To the OP, did you qualify romex in your bid? Or did you just not see it excluded anywhere on the plans and specs, and decided to go for it?

Have you done work with the GC before? (More importantly, will they let you do work for them again!)


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## Shockdoc

MarkyMark said:


> To the OP, did you qualify romex in your bid? Or did you just not see it excluded anywhere on the plans and specs, and decided to go for it?
> 
> Have you done work with the GC before? (More importantly, will they let you do work for them again!)


I've wired three units prior for this landlord, I specified "to code" . The tenants electrician is an MC and copper man, I already had an idea of his bid, and just needed to beat it by 15%. The landlord just wants a job completed w/o defects and an underwriters upon completion. I do the same w/ services specifying "to code" utilizing aluminum conductors, if tagged copper is additional. Copper is the main choice of service conductors by most local electricians. They are low balling 200 amp services at $1550 w/ copper. I do the same w/ aluminum xlpe in conduit. I will be using mc cable to loop my lay ins .


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## B4T

Shockdoc said:


> I've wired three units prior for this landlord, I specified "to code" . The tenants electrician is an MC and copper man, I already had an idea of his bid, and just needed to beat it by 15%. The landlord just wants a job completed w/o defects and an underwriters upon completion. I do the same w/ services specifying "to code" utilizing aluminum conductors, if tagged copper is additional. Copper is the main choice of service conductors by most local electricians. *They are low* *balling 200 amp services at $1550 w/ copper*. I do the same w/ aluminum xlpe in conduit. I will be using mc cable to loop my lay ins .


I already lost one S/C to those guys.. 

I just sold a 200a service change all PVC and copper for $2200.00.. :thumbsup:


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## Rudeboy

Black4Truck said:


> I just sold a 200a service change all PVC and copper for $2200.00.. :thumbsup:


What a rip-off!
:thumbup:


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## 480sparky

Rudeboy said:


> What a rip-off!
> :thumbup:



No it's not. B4T uses 3M Scotchkote!


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## B4T

Rudeboy said:


> What a rip-off!
> :thumbup:


Ha.. :laughing:.. that is the *going price..* now if you really want to see ripoff.. :whistling2:

I feel really good giving new life to a dead horse and my elevator is fixed.. :thumbup:


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## Shockdoc

Black4Truck said:


> I already lost one S/C to those guys..
> 
> I just sold a 200a service change all PVC and copper for $2200.00.. :thumbsup:


I've gotten up to $2800 from repeat customers in the past, usually up in Pt. Lookout or Montauk and the Hamptons where I use copper. The Western suffolk folks and Nassau is looking for below value prices, give them quality work w/ below value wire.


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## B4T

Shockdoc said:


> I've gotten up to $2800 from repeat customers in the past, usually up in Pt. Lookout or Montauk and the Hamptons where I use copper. The Western suffolk folks and Nassau is looking for below value prices, give them quality work w/ below value wire.


They get the best job I can give.. I am happy with the $2200.00


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## Shockdoc

Black4Truck said:


> They get the best job I can give.. I am happy with the $2200.00


I'd be happy w/ that number too, and they'd get cu also. Some customers are educated consumers, many aren't. I had one guy bragging about the price he paid for a seu butcher service w/ a 200 a 40 ckt panel hanging off a 2x2 of rotting plywood.:blink:


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## Innovative

Bob Badger said:


> An 11" tie wrap will make it around the stud and cable fine unless one side is rocked or something else is in the way.
> 
> *FWIW the tie wraps with eyelets are expensive*.


Automation direct is where we get ours....... very good price on the ones with eyelets. Their price on replacement motors and control panel stuff is excellent also.


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## nitro71

Shockdoc said:


> So am i a hack? I made some good money with a cheap bid. :thumbup:


What's your point?


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## ashele4530

by code it sounds like its ok but maybe another fastening means would of looked more professional.


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## Shockdoc

nitro71 said:


> What's your point?


minimum code....it proves to be a money maker.


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## Bob Badger

ashele4530 said:


> by code it sounds like its ok but maybe another fastening means would of looked more professional.


The Sheetrock goes on and everything looks great.


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## Mike in Canada

480sparky said:


> You'll notice I never say I'm still using Carlon boxes any more on the forum.


 I notice that you never say that you're *not* still using Carlon boxes. 

Mike


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## circuit-machine

*alluminum is garbage*



Shockdoc said:


> I've wired three units prior for this landlord, I specified "to code" . The tenants electrician is an MC and copper man, I already had an idea of his bid, and just needed to beat it by 15%. The landlord just wants a job completed w/o defects and an underwriters upon completion. I do the same w/ services specifying "to code" utilizing aluminum conductors, if tagged copper is additional. Copper is the main choice of service conductors by most local electricians. They are low balling 200 amp services at $1550 w/ copper. I do the same w/ aluminum xlpe in conduit. I will be using mc cable to loop my lay ins .


Man. If the installation is safe and secure I am all for zip ties or whatever else, but alluminum is garbage. The owner will regret that  in about 15 years.


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## 480sparky

Mike in Canada said:


> I notice that you never say that you're *not* still using Carlon boxes.
> 
> Mike



There's a *lot *of things I don't say here. :no:


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## 480sparky

circuit-machine said:


> Man. If the installation is safe and secure I am all for zip ties or whatever else, but alluminum is garbage. The owner will regret that  in about 15 years.


Then contact the NFPA and submit a proposal to remove aluminum conductors from the NEC.


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## mikeg_05

480sparky said:


> Then contact the NFPA and submit a proposal to remove aluminum conductors from the NEC.


Yes and write exactly that, it gets your point across well.


circuit-machine said:


> alluminum is garbage.


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## Rudeboy

Still waiting for any CA guy to tell me that he uses NM for commercial.

I honestly don't know if it's legal here.


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## nitro71

circuit-machine said:


> Man. If the installation is safe and secure I am all for zip ties or whatever else, but alluminum is garbage. The owner will regret that  in about 15 years.


I've seen MANY 20+ year old aluminum service entrance conductors that are operating without any issues at all. Nothing at all wrong with aluminum.


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## Bob Badger

circuit-machine said:


> Man. If the installation is safe and secure I am all for zip ties or whatever else, but alluminum is garbage. The owner will regret that  in about 15 years.


Interesting, the utility wires seem to last and they are usually aluminum.


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## B4T

Bob Badger said:


> Interesting, the utility wires seem to last and they are usually aluminum.


I always ask the POCO guys what they think about aluminum for service conductors.. they love the overtime..:laughing:


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## Bob Badger

Black4Truck said:


> I always ask the POCO guys what they think about aluminum for service conductors.. they love the overtime..:laughing:


Some of the crap you post is just so short sighted and stupid it is simply amazing. No wonder Bill pulls the wool over your eyes so easily. :laughing:

Hourly workers like OT, wow, really?:laughing:

If they switched the entire network to copper and they would still be out making repairs and getting OT.

When you have 1000s of miles of system failures will happen.

We install a ton of copper for those that want to pay for it, we also install a ton of AL for the ones that do not.

Both work just fine when installed properly.

I will say this, if you are on, or near the ocean front copper is probably a better choice. The salt air does corrode AL even faster than it eats up the steel enclosures. Seems like that may apply to most of LI. 

We have a at least one local ocean front Municipal power company that strings mostly copper.


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## Shockdoc

Black4Truck said:


> I always ask the POCO guys what they think about aluminum for service conductors.. they love the overtime..:laughing:


 Two factors we have here on the coastline, salt water air and semi ******** installers. I never had a problem w/ any of my aluminum installs. I'm sure if the HO or HI alters the service or the installer doesn't seal the entry of the lower half tailpiece (old style) sleeved in emt w/ the sill plate to permit water to the main breaker lugs or a bad w/h installation or unsealed seu connector at the top of pan. If it were up to me, any 220 item over 30 amps would be allowed to be run in aluminum out here. I'd be wiring pool panels using #4 al instead of #6 cu and make the profit instead of Wall St.


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## B4T

Bob Badger said:


> Some of the crap you post is just so short sighted and stupid it is simply amazing. No wonder Bill pulls the wool over your eyes so easily. :laughing:
> *I don't agree with you at all, so what else is new.. calling me short sighted and stupid too bad you like personal attacks so much. Bill is not pulling the wool over my eyes either.. :no:*
> 
> Hourly workers like OT, wow, really?:laughing:
> *I was talking about the POCO guys doing service calls when a HO has no power.. they are the first ones there to find the problem.*
> *THAT was the OT I was talking about*
> 
> If they switched the entire network to copper and they would still be out making repairs and getting OT.
> 
> When you have 1000s of miles of system failures will happen.
> 
> We install a ton of copper for those that want to pay for it, we also install a ton of AL for the ones that do not.
> 
> Both work just fine when installed properly.
> 
> I will say this, if you are on, or near the ocean front copper is probably a better choice. The salt air does corrode AL even faster than it eats up the steel enclosures. Seems like that may apply to most of LI.
> 
> *I think all the road salt has something to do with the problem also.. cars kick up a rooster tail of water droplets loaded with salt. IMO it doesn't take much wind to blow it 30' up in the air.*
> 
> We have a at least one local ocean front Municipal power company that strings mostly copper.


As you can see, that multiple quote button doesn't like me either..


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## Jlarson

circuit-machine said:


> Man. If the installation is safe and secure I am all for zip ties or whatever else, but alluminum is garbage. The owner will regret that  in about 15 years.


Al can be as reliable as copper, there is a chance that Al service will still be ticking along long after your dead. It's not the material it's the quality of the installer and how the system is maintained that matters.


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## jwjrw

Jlarson said:


> Al can be as reliable as copper, there is a chance that Al service will still be ticking along long after your dead. It's not the material it's the quality of the installer and how the system is maintained that matters.


 
I agree but the REAL reason everyone hears aluminum and does not want it is that the old alloys they used sucked and did cause problems. They use a different alloy now. I would dare to say as well as copper. Like someone said....poco has and does use it.


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## Jlarson

jwjrw said:


> I agree but the REAL reason everyone hears aluminum and does not want it is that the old alloys they used sucked and did cause problems. They use a different alloy now. I would dare to say as well as copper. Like someone said....poco has and does use it.


I have worked on some pretty old Al stuff. It holds up well in some environments, especially if no hack has messed with it.


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## Shockdoc

Jlarson said:


> I have worked on some pretty old Al stuff. It holds up well in some environments, especially if no hack has messed with it.


I enjoy other electricians who say,"aluminum is dangerous". I know i'll underbid them.


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## Jlarson

Shockdoc said:


> I enjoy other electricians who say,"aluminum is dangerous". I know i'll underbid them.


:yes: They can say what the want about Al being bad, it's a safe legal, lower cost method which is good enough for me.


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## jwjrw

Jlarson said:


> :yes: They can say what the want about Al being bad, it's a safe legal, lower cost method which is good enough for me.


 
That being said I normally only use the AL for service riser and entrance conductors. I still pull copper to everything else.


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## Jlarson

jwjrw said:


> That being said I normally only use the AL for service riser and entrance conductors. I still pull copper to everything else.


Same here.


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## Skipp

Rudeboy said:


> Still waiting for any CA guy to tell me that he uses NM for commercial.
> 
> I honestly don't know if it's legal here.


 I agree with you. I have always heard that NM for anything except residential is not acceptable. I thought it was because NEC doesn't allow it. I do know that NM would not pass inspection on any commercial job here in Southern Calif.


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## Skipp

jwjrw said:


> That being said I normally only use the AL for service riser and entrance conductors. I still pull copper to everything else.


 I thought small gauge wire like AWG #10 and #12 Aluminum was no longer allowed as branch circuits, since 1972 . Except maybe mobile homes. It's not allowed here for anything under AWG 8.


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## jwjrw

Skipp said:


> I thought small gauge wire like AWG #10 and #12 Aluminum was no longer allowed as branch circuits, since 1972 . Except maybe mobile homes. It's not allowed here for anything under AWG 8.


 
You are correct but....you can run #8 AL Se cable to a/c units, #6 to range. I don't usually do this unless customer wants bottom barrel price.


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## Bob Badger

There is no NEC restriction on the use of 10 and 12 AWG Aluminum. I have not heard that it is 'outlawed' anywhere.

The problem in using 10 and 12 Aluminum is that as far as I know no manufacturer is making it at this time.


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## jwjrw

Bob Badger said:


> There is no NEC restriction on the use of 10 and 12 AWG Aluminum. I have not heard that it is 'outlawed' anywhere.
> 
> The problem in using 10 and 12 Aluminum is that as far as I know no manufacturer is making it at this time.


 

Your probably correct. I just knew people stopped using it here in the early 70's.


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## McClary’s Electrical

Skipp said:


> I agree with you. I have always heard that NM for anything except residential is not acceptable. I thought it was because NEC doesn't allow it. I do know that NM would not pass inspection on any commercial job here in Southern Calif.


 


Try studying, don't believe everything you "hear"


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## brian john

> Originally Posted by circuit-machine
> Man. If the installation is safe and secure I am all for zip ties or whatever else, but alluminum is garbage. The owner will regret that in about 15 years.



Can you back up that statement or is this just scuttlebutt you picked up over the years talking to other electricians.

With feeders I have seen as many copper issues as I have seen Aluminum issues. And I would bet my firm looks at more terminations in a day that most ECs see in a month.

When properly installed I see no issue with either conductor.


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## Bob Badger

brian john said:


> Can you back up that statement or is this just scuttlebutt you picked up over the years talking to other electricians.
> 
> With feeders I have seen as many copper issues as I have seen Aluminum issues. And I would bet my firm looks at more terminations in a day that most ECs see in a month.
> 
> When properly installed I see no issue with either conductor.


Hey, stop trying to bring facts into this. :no:


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## Skipp

mcclary's electrical said:


> Try studying, don't believe everything you "hear"


 If the person I am working for says I can't use NM, that's all I need to study. What good does it do to break out the NEC and tell the customer, engineer, and/or my boss that I can use it? 

Of the hundreds of commercial jobs I have worked on in my life. I have yet to see one piece of NM romex installed on any of them. I personally see no problem with NM in commercial wiring. But who am I to decide?


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## jwjrw

Skipp said:


> If the person I am working for says I can't use NM, that's all I need to study. What good does it do to break out the NEC and tell the customer, engineer, and/or my boss that I can use it?
> 
> Of the hundreds of commercial jobs I have worked on in my life. I have yet to see one piece of NM romex installed on any of them. I personally see no problem with NM in commercial wiring. But who am I to decide?


 
We see it some but more and more it's mc cable over everything else.


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## Shockdoc

jwjrw said:


> We see it some but more and more it's mc cable over everything else.


five years ago I would have bid only mc,ac or conduit for commercial. In this economy, the cheapest way possible, and then step ups if the customer wants.


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