# Unresolved troubleshoot calls



## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

How do you handle these when you book a 3hr appointment and you go 4.5 hrs and still can't find where the neutral is lost?

I mean can you charge for leaving the property without solving the issue ?

I'm going to have to schedule additional time , but at this point what do i do ?


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

What does your contract say?

If you are charging by the hour to locate the issue, you can charge for your time. Just reschedule to continue where you left off, sometimes you need to step away from the problem to clear your head.

If you are flat rate and you quoted a price to find the issue, you can't IMO collect until you have found the issue.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

Yes flat rate ... will just have to reschedule and continue .. first time this has happened ... oh well


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I completely agree with Switched.

I never say anything about solving their issue, just troubleshooting it. There are some things that can't be fixed, such as a hidden junction box that you will never find. You still need to get paid for your time troubleshooting it.

My service call includes up to an hour of troubleshooting a problem. If I can't find the problem in an hour I will reassess the situation. Often times I will discuss it with the customer and provide a workaround instead of contining to troubleshoot. 

Four and a half hours is a long time to look for a missing neutral, I would have just ran a new romex to one of the boxes on the circuit and connected a new neutral.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

WronGun said:


> How do you handle these when you book a 3hr appointment and you go 4.5 hrs and still can't find where the neutral is lost?
> 
> I mean can you charge for leaving the property without solving the issue ?
> 
> ...


I'd fall on my sword.

1) In Romex world, open neutrals are found EVERY TIME, lickety split, with a Toner and Wand// Fox and Hound.

So I have zero sympathy of anyone unable to find an open neutral, broken hots, etc.

PM me if you don't know how to use this essential and basic diagnostic tool.

2) Just how many boxes can exist between the troubled load and the panel ?

Fire up EVERY okay circuit that's nearby in the structure -- to include lamps and plug testers ( I keep a slew of plug testers so that I can leave them stuck in -- six or more at a time ) while the troubled circuit is kept OFF back at the panel.

Then waltz around noting which receptacles// and lighting runs are now cold.

These, then, become the focus of your research. 

[ This is not any absolute proof that said boxes are 'it.' Merely the most probable. You must allow for MWBC and the fact that your puppy might be routed through a troubled box that also has good circuits. ]

[ All if which means, you should've brought a toner and wand, BTW. ]

&&&&&&

In sum: 4.5 hours to not find an open neutral = terrible technique.

*How can you possibly afford to not have a toner and wand ?*


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Toners and wands will ALWAYS find hidden j-boxes in Romex world...

If you know what you're doing.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Toner and wand doesn't always work thru the thick plaster and wood lath walls we have here.

We also work is such old houses that the problem usually exists in a hidden box, flying splice in the wall behind an appliance, or just from a nail that hit the cable 50 years ago and took 5 decades of heat cycles expanding and contracting it until it finally broke.

But I would be interested in hearing your toner and wand technique (always looking for new tricks) if you can do it without insulating everyone.


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

@telsa 's post about toners about a year ago ... I said it should be a sticky 

I don't use mine often, but invaluable when you need it :thumbsup:


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

If I can't find an open neutral in 3 hours, I'd call an electrician.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

I have every tool ever created in my truck ! Lol 
Although , I haven't used the toner and generator often needless to say.

It's an old house ... i opened up 12 Receptacle boxes , 5 switch boxes , 5 light fixtures on the trouble circuit.... all good 

The only thing I can think of is that i have a buried box or my trouble circuit is passing through another circuits box. 

I jumped out a neutral from a nearby working Receptacle and it remedied all boxes in my trouble circuit 

This happened after carpet installers used the circuit for some of their power tools 

I might just run a new circuit to one of the boxes which is not exactly a small project 


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## Drew 64 (Dec 31, 2016)

Are the receptacles stab backed instead of hooked? Stab backed outlets can sometimes create intermittent problems depending on the amount of load connected. The method of stab backing a receptacle should be outlawed in my opinion for # 14 as it was for #12 some years back.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

Drew 64 said:


> Are the receptacles stab backed instead of hooked? Stab backed outlets can sometimes create intermittent problems depending on the amount of load connected. The method of stab backing a receptacle should be outlawed in my opinion for # 14 as it was for #12 some years back.




They were back stabbed 


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

Drew 64 said:


> Are the receptacles stab backed instead of hooked? Stab backed outlets can sometimes create intermittent problems depending on the amount of load connected. The method of stab backing a receptacle should be outlawed in my opinion for # 14 as it was for #12 some years back.


What are you doing here? You usually only show up to like Speedy Deletey's pro-communist posts.


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

IMO there's something wrong with your troubleshooting process. If you split the circuit in half (break all connections) generally speaking it'll get narrowed down to one or two boxes. Then determine if the wall needs to be opened, check attic and or crawl space.


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## Drew 64 (Dec 31, 2016)

I would recheck the backstabbed receptacles first when you return. I have pulled receptacles out of the box to check connections that looked ok but we're not. You need to actually test for voltage between the hot and neutral on the conductor itself, not just with a plug tester or on the screws of the receptacles.


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

Maybe the neutral connection breaks when you remount the device if they're backstabbed?


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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

If I can't find the problem within 45 minutes or so, the Amprobe AT-2005 comes out of the truck. 

It doesn't get used much, but when you need it, it's there. I use it more for breaker finding than anything else, really.

An electrician in this for the long haul really needs to spend some money on a GOOD circuit tracer/breaker finder in my opinion. I think I spent $500-750 on the Amprobe 6-7 years ago, and all I've done is change the batteries so far.


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## trentonmakes (Mar 21, 2017)

HackWork said:


> Four and a half hours is a long time to look for a missing neutral, I would have just ran a new romex to one of the boxes on the circuit and connected a new neutral.


And still be out in under 4 1/2 hours
Lol






Seen As A Tiny Blip From Space


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Cow said:


> If I can't find the problem within 45 minutes or so, the Amprobe AT-2005 comes out of the truck.
> 
> It doesn't get used much, but when you need it, it's there. I use it more for breaker finding than anything else, really.
> 
> An electrician in this for the long haul really needs to spend some money on a GOOD circuit tracer/breaker finder in my opinion. I think I spent $500-750 on the Amprobe 6-7 years ago, and all I've done is change the batteries so far.


This is what I expected. I never had that much luck with a toner, I figured a good tracer was necessary. But I am still waiting to hear what telsa has to say.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Telsa's trick don't work when there are 3 waterbeds sitting 1 inch off the walls of the bedrooms, and 4 long dressers with mirrors on top in there blocking as well, let alone the 88 boxes stuffed full of dishes and clothing that nobody will part with. I generally use the toner method myself, but I know about half the time from just talking on the phone with the problem customer, I am going into a hell hole of stuff that has to be moved around first. I am good friends with the Vice President of the largest moving company in the state. I give those customers his card and tell them to say Mikey when they talk to him , he can get the rooms empty in three hours and pack it all back in the same amount of time, but it will cost them. It is an insurmountable problem otherwise.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

WronGun said:


> They were back stabbed
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Did you change them to the screw terminals as you went through them?


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

Are your neutrals pigtailed at the receps.? Because, if they're backstabbed, I'd start there.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

joebanana said:


> Are your neutrals pigtailed at the receps.? Because, if they're backstabbed, I'd start there.


Chances are they are just backstabbed and if I was going to take the time to pull them out of the boxes you'd be damned sure I'd have corrected them as I went.

Seen where they are good when you pulled them out they made contact and as soon as you moved them it broke contact many times. 

Backstabbing was never a good idea.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

WronGun said:


> How do you handle these when you book a 3hr appointment and you go 4.5 hrs and still can't find where the neutral is lost?
> 
> I mean can you charge for leaving the property without solving the issue ?
> 
> ...


:blink: 4.5 hours and not find the bad neutral ? 

there is few learning curve when you do the troubleshooting this service call.

I pretty much agree with most guys what they posted in here.

I do not know what age of that exsting structure it is ., and how recentally historywise it was rewired ., 

I know you mention the carpet installer was running staple gun or something and those electric staplers the peak current cycling can be a issue due they really kick the current pretty good tens of amps to couple hundred amps for split second even thru some labeled as 8 to 15 amps but they are more like a oversized soilind device. 

the other clue is if that happend after carpet installer done with it.,, check the NM cable near baseboard area you may find a stray staple or short nail hit it.,, 

The fastest way to do this is do half of that affected circuit and see which half you need to hit.

Oh yeah get rid all the backstabbing connection they are famous for loose connection even ya pull it out and look good but when you push it back in again it can loose up so go with screw termation much as you can.

sometime you have to know when you have to make a call when you have to stop espcally if you are on T&M rate.

do everything much as you can in first hour that part useally can find the curpit in most case.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Chances are they are just backstabbed and if I was going to take the time to pull them out of the boxes you'd be damned sure I'd have corrected them as I went.
> 
> *Seen where they are good when you pulled them out they made contact and as soon as you moved them it broke contact many times. *
> 
> Backstabbing was never a good idea.


That's why you always keep your eyes on the other receptacles that are out in which you put a plug tester into. Or a radio. This way when you touch the problem device/splice you will see/hear it come back on.

Re terminating a device is the same thing as replacing it, which I charge a minimum of $40 for. I can't see going around and doing that work for free for 12 receptacles and 5 switches.


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## gnuuser (Jan 13, 2013)

i once found a poor neutral in a receptacle that when you pulled the receptacle out and tested at the screws worked fine but when pushed back in wouldn't work (was connected at the screw terminals tightly)
the neutral was pigtailed but was not stripped back far enough to make a good contact under the wire nut.
it was easy to find but a pain in the arse to get to (lots of heavy chit to move)
it was also the first receptacle on the line and the neutral conductor was from the supply side of the run.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

HackWork said:


> That's why you always keep your eyes on the other receptacles that are out in which you put a plug tester into. Or a radio. This way when you touch the problem device/splice you will see/hear it come back on.
> 
> Re terminating a device is the same thing as replacing it, which I charge a minimum of $40 for. I can't see going around and doing that work for free for 12 receptacles and 5 switches.


Oh I never once said free. If I'm there it's to fix the problem and get paid.

I like and use the radio idea myself.

Half a day is never free, far from it.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Oh I never once said free. If I'm there it's to fix the problem and get paid.
> 
> I like and use the radio idea myself.
> 
> Half a day is never free, far from it.


There's no reason why you should be there half a day to find and fix a 20-30 minute issue. 

Leave the backstabs, find the problem. Then sell them on fixing all the backstabs for $40 each. I think it should be their choice.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

The house was clean but she was a hoarder .. I could barely move around.... I guess my frame of mind was that I would probably see something obvious given the circuit gave out after a heavy load was on it.... Guess I was dead wrong ...I'm
Going to have to get more familiar with my troubleshooting tools...

The last time I had this a loose neutral issue i found it with my flir thermal Imager without touching a single tool prior.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

I don't own the Amprobe at2005 but I do have the greenlee 2007 tracer 

I honestly not sure how to go about it using this tool I've only used this to find breakers 

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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

WronGun said:


> I don't own the Amprobe at2005 but I do have the greenlee 2007 tracer
> 
> I honestly not sure how to go about it using this tool I've only used this to find breakers
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I think the quickest way would have been to locate the neutral for the circuit in the panel and pull it off the buss and connect up a toner to it and then walk box to box with the wand til you get a weak signal.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

Back feed the circuit hacker style with an extension cord and some tails...and 
the point where it quits working is where the problem is going to be.

2 minute process...bada-boom bada -bing


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

lighterup said:


> Back feed the circuit hacker style with an extension cord and some tails...and
> 
> the point where it quits working is where the problem is going to be.
> 
> ...




I did jump out of another Receptacle with a neutral into the non working circuit Receptacle and everything turned back
On.....

I think there is something beyond the panel
But before the first device like a hidden junction/bad splice or damaged N.... 

I will break out the toner and generator next 

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## JoeSparky (Mar 25, 2010)

Plug a space heater or other large load into the dead outlets and go around to the live ones and hit them with the side of a fist. The vibration and the large load will draw an arc and temporarily complete the circuit when you hit the right outlet.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

WronGun said:


> I did jump out of another Receptacle with a neutral into the non working circuit Receptacle and everything turned back
> On.....
> 
> I think there is something beyond the panel
> ...


if this is old knob & tube , it is very possible that the neutral was "robbed" 
off a water line that has either since been removed (for repair in plastic) 
or the solder gave way...

If everything came back on , including back stabbed receptacles in series 
(I assume) , then I would not waste any more time looking at that. Just re-feed the circuit directly from main and if 120 volts goes back on original HR , than remove that HR from main , put in box , cap off , blank plate.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

lighterup said:


> if this is old knob & tube , it is very possible that the neutral was "robbed"
> 
> off a water line that has either since been removed (for repair in plastic)
> 
> ...




Yes it all came back on.. 

its not KT. It's 14/2 romex (black colored jacket)




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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

HackWork said:


> This is what I expected. I never had that much luck with a toner, I figured a good tracer was necessary. But I am still waiting to hear what telsa has to say.


If you don't want me to insulate you... 

Inject a PM my way. :thumbsup:


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Did you change them to the screw terminals as you went through them?


Professionally speaking, I *choke* on the notion of opening innocent j-boxes.

The ODDS favor that the troubled outlet// receptacle has its fault located pretty nearby.

For a century... plus... our trade builds its circuits radially, outward... conceptually.

The typical Residential circuit does not use a heck-of-a-lot of branching.

Straight daisy-chained runs are favored... with only an occasional branching off.

Faults existing// imposed after all of the branches are the easiest to resolve.

One buries one's clock chasing circuit 'logic' into totally irrelevant j-boxes 

Such errors are born of frustration.

One of the most basic, if clever, troubleshooting ideas is the principle of EXCLUSION.

One can exclude healthy circuits running through, largely, healthy j-boxes.

In Residential tract circuiting, it's a rarity to run more than one MWBC through a single-gang j-box... if it's even a MCBC.

So, your first assumption is that a one-gang j-box has but one or two circuits. These totally dominate Residential wiring schemes.

IF your troubled circuit, typically a receptacle, lies in a 1-gang box, you can make these first-order assumptions. ( They don't hold for Commercial circuits, where a 1-gang box commonly holds lots of 'action.' )

[ Side-note, lighting circuits are best attacked -- first -- at the switch(es). Strangely, it's a RARE prospect that has nightmare lighting circuit 'issues.' ] 

[ Screwed up three-ways are a whole different kettle of fish. ]

Professionally, I prefer LOW POWER, LOW VOLTAGE circuit discovery.

I don't let the 'smoke out' with this approach. 

Back-tapping from a good receptacle is certainly an option. It will 'prove up' a whole chain of decent connections. For it to work, you MUST have already isolated which conductors are with what circuits.

*Pray that you're NOT tapping -- backwards -- leg Red onto Leg Black.*

That's the risk you're taking.
*
The neutral is open ... the hot ... not so much.*

I go for low voltage comprehension precisely because I don't let the smoke out.

I have a LOT of other Low Voltage tricks that you don't ever see in the literature. 

Which influence my tactics.

My custom trick tools are also a factor.

Sadly, they are TOO simple to be patented.

Which is why they keep being rediscovered, over and over, and never patented.


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## Drsparky14 (Oct 22, 2016)

WronGun said:


> Yes flat rate ... will just have to reschedule and continue .. first time this has happened ... oh well
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Never do flat rate service work. You never know what you are getting into. 


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## Drsparky14 (Oct 22, 2016)

macmikeman said:


> Telsa's trick don't work when there are 3 waterbeds sitting 1 inch off the walls of the bedrooms, and 4 long dressers with mirrors on top in there blocking as well, let alone the 88 boxes stuffed full of dishes and clothing that nobody will part with. I generally use the toner method myself, but I know about half the time from just talking on the phone with the problem customer, I am going into a hell hole of stuff that has to be moved around first. I am good friends with the Vice President of the largest moving company in the state. I give those customers his card and tell them to say Mikey when they talk to him , he can get the rooms empty in three hours and pack it all back in the same amount of time, but it will cost them. It is an insurmountable problem otherwise.




That's a really good idea 


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

telsa said:


> Professionally speaking, I *choke* on the notion of opening innocent j-boxes.
> 
> The ODDS favor that the troubled outlet// receptacle has its fault located pretty nearby.
> 
> ...


Easily checked with a hand held voltage tester prior to connecting. I like the knopp solenoid tester myself but the t series flukes will produce the same results although you might be thrown off trail if you are not familiar with ghost voltage readings. You read between the hot side of the dead circuit and the hot slot of the extension cord first. If it's live , you will read 240 volts, or 120 volts. This is like electrician 101 stuff .


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

telsa said:


> If you don't want me to insulate you...
> 
> Inject a PM my way. :thumbsup:


I'm scared you're going to yell at me. Just post it here.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

@HackWork did you megger everything before you hooked up your toner? If you do that I'll tell you all my toner secrets.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

splatz said:


> @HackWork did you megger everything before you hooked up your toner? If you do that I'll tell you all my toner secrets.


Hax doesn't megger anything. It makes his testosterone level bottom out and he feels girly.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

RePhase277 said:


> Hax doesn't megger anything. It makes his testosterone level bottom out and he feels girly.


I megger stuff. It's just that I don't play with my megger...




Unless there's apprentices to shock.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

RePhase277 said:


> Hax doesn't megger anything. It makes his testosterone level bottom out and he feels girly.


Now that you mention it that's probably why he can't hear the toner, too much testosterone making his ears ring. So the megger ought to straighten him out, or maybe a pair of skinny jeans with faux holes in them.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

splatz said:


> Now that you mention it that's probably why he can't hear the toner, too much testosterone making his ears ring. So the megger ought to straighten him out, or maybe a pair of skinny jeans with faux holes in them.


Then Hax and 99 could be twinsies!


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Diagnostics aside, most of the_ unresolved_ are the result of indecisive customers confronted with *$$$ *options.....

~CS~


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

splatz said:


> Now that you mention it that's probably why he can't hear the toner, too much testosterone making his ears ring. So the megger ought to straighten him out, or maybe a pair of skinny jeans with faux holes in them.


My testosterone is low due to the missing testicle. You're so mean, you crossed the line, I am going to storm off like 99cents.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

HackWork said:


> My testosterone is low due to the missing testicle. You're so mean, you crossed the line, I am going to storm off like 99cents.


WTF happened? Did 99 take the testicle when he left?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

RePhase277 said:


> WTF happened? Did 99 take the testicle when he left?


My testicle was a better human being than you will ever be.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

HackWork said:


> My testosterone is low due to the missing testicle. You're so mean, you crossed the line, I am going to storm off like 99cents.


You are going to take your ball and go home?


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

splatz said:


> You are going to take your ball and go home?


Cause you see....


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

What a nut.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

telsa said:


> Professionally speaking, I *choke* on the notion of opening innocent j-boxes.
> 
> The ODDS favor that the troubled outlet// receptacle has its fault located pretty nearby.
> 
> ...



My point in asking if he reterminated them is this, if you are going to open Pandora's box(es) you might as well correct the issues there in.

As for your theory of 'radial' circuitry that is premised on the fact of an actual trained installer.

While my resi experience is limited a good portion of service calls I have been on were caused by some moron wiring up circuits in a nonsensical manner more often than not. 

While the original circuit may have emanated radially from the panel the lines taken off every other box to feed other things did not.


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## 3DDesign (Oct 25, 2014)

Did you go outside and find the outdoor receptacle behind the shrubs?


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

I went back today and with my tone generator I located one lonely Receptacle on the complete opposite end of the house which was the first Device... Neutral was cooked !

I think I'll be using this tool more often ! 

Weird ... in an office on other end of house where out of 5 receptacles only this one was shared with the living room area

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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

WronGun said:


> I went back today and with my tone generator I located one lonely Receptacle on the complete opposite end of the house which was the first Device... Neutral was cooked !
> 
> I think I'll be using this tool more often !
> 
> ...


I do stuff like that on purpose to screw with other electricians!


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

WronGun said:


> I went back today and with my tone generator I located one lonely Receptacle on the complete opposite end of the house which was the first Device... Neutral was cooked !
> 
> I think I'll be using this tool more often !
> 
> ...


Always bring all your tools/meters with you Grasshopper!


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