# Electrical work prior to home sale



## griffws (Oct 24, 2008)

New to the forum. 

I have done a variety of work for homeowners and realtors as part of home sales. Typically, we'll make some or all of the electrical repairs that show up in the home inspection report. 

Yesterday I was asked by a homeowner to perform a repair. The inspector noted the ground rod was about 18in above ground level. I'd agree that it should have been driven flush to grade, although a somewhat minor problem in my opinion.

So, the home owner sends me the inspection report and asks that I make the repair to the ground rod. I am not asked to correct the other electrical issues in the report. In the report pictures I see that the PVC sleeve protecting the utility conductors into the meter socket has separated at a coupling. The conductors are visible at this gap, a big problem in my opinion. 

BUT, I was not asked to repair this condition. Just fix the ground rod...OK. So, I was trying to be responsive (knowing selling a home is a hassle) and went to the house today on a service call.

Made the repair by loosening the acorn clamp. It wasn't corodded or locked up. Drove the rod in with the 8 lb maul. Then reconnected the grounding conductor. Also, first checked and found no current on the grounding conductor. OK, good to go.

I send the invoice and pictures showing the repair. $ 150 service call for next day service. Again, I feel this is pretty fair.

Within minutes of sending this to the homeowner I get a call back from the realtor. "Anyone could have hemmered in the ground rod". AND " why didn't you 'wrap' the pipe?". AND "How come it cost $150?" AND "why didn't you just cut off the ground rod?"

...my blood pressure rises again as I type this...

I call the homeowner back, after being berated by the realter, I waive the fee and refuse to go back to repair the conduit. Which was never asked of me in the first place. Even though I felt it should have been repaired as well as some other things, I can't just do work that is not asked for.

I would say that about 80% of the time we run into problems in situations involving home inspections / home sales / realtors. 


OK, now I'm feeling a bit calmer...


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Have 'em sign a contract beforehand.

"This is what I'll do, and this is what it will cost you."

Problem solved.


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## ampman (Apr 2, 2009)

griffws said:


> New to the forum.
> 
> I have done a variety of work for homeowners and realtors as part of home sales. Typically, we'll make some or all of the electrical repairs that show up in the home inspection report.
> 
> ...


150.00 is more than reasonable , many times these repairs ( no matter how simple ) have to be carried out by a liscensed professional. I'd tell the realtor to go **** themselves


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## griffws (Oct 24, 2008)

I typically write up a proposal although don't require a signature. In the interest of time I didn't do it this time. 

Sometimes i find it hard to justify a proposal for a service call...

Turned out to be a problem this time...miscommunication was the cause of it all I guess.


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## Mshow1323 (Jun 9, 2012)

480sparky said:


> Have 'em sign a contract beforehand.
> 
> "This is what I'll do, and this is what it will cost you."
> 
> Problem solved.


X1000
How do you into a job without the decision maker present without an agree cost prior to commencement, and expect anything different? Especially when you say it happens 80% of the time. This is your fault, not the realtor's, not the homeowner's, but your's alone. Change your company policy and avoid this 100% of the time. For what it's worth, $150 is absolutely reseasonable, but as a consumer, I don't pay for shiit until I know what I'm getting beforehand. 

This will also solve you PVC issue because you will have discussed the scope of work with your customer in person and not via email, or a third party representative.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

griffws said:


> New to the forum.
> 
> Yesterday I was asked by a homeowner to perform a repair.
> 
> ...


WHAT ?

What is going on here ?

Your business should be between you and the principal... the homeowner.

There is such a concept as the minimum fee required to even ring the door bell.

You didn't 'just pound a ground rod for 90 seconds' or anything like it.

1) Phone games -- and the time you're burning...

2) Office work -- cutting the invoice...

3) Drive time -- and all of the expenses consequent...

4) Expertise -- as in doing the job correctly -- not cutting the rod down. 

&&&

I'm not sure what "wrap the pipe" means -- but if it's a trivial labor step my personal business standards would've compelled me to correct it. It would be merely a part of the Service Call.

It was an error to send irritating pictures to a customer. 

Take pictures -- yes -- but, save them for the courthouse. 

You were (really) being called in to wipe some tush: make all of the flaws sure to be seen by any Home Inspector go away.

This you did not do. 

And, I rather suspect that your photos proved that you didn't 'scratch their itch.'

I'm going to assume that the customer was a woman and that she whined to her (male) realtor because she didn't want to deal with you any further. You may properly assume that he was merely a proxy for _her_ rage.

The way this has played out -- she didn't really get her home squared away... you didn't get paid.


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## griffws (Oct 24, 2008)

In this case the home inspection had already occurred. The homeowner sent me the inspection report. She specifically asked me to drive the ground rod but not to fix the few other problems shown in the report.

At the time, it seemed to be a quick and easy fix. In retrospect, turned out to be a mess.

The realtor turned out to be her sister. This was also a complicating factor since it wasn't just a business relationship.

To make matters worse, my conversation with the realtor felt, to me, like a personal shot. Then I likely overreacted.

A bad situation got worse.

I probably did burn the bridge in this case but did learn a few lessons


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Dang...

Family matters. (!)


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

griffws said:


> ....... "Anyone could have hemmered in the ground rod".......



Me: "Yet apparently that's beyond your capability....." :whistling2:


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## Bootss (Dec 30, 2011)

OP, how are you making your connections with the REALTORs? Mixers, Chamber of Commerce, flyers, etc. ?


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

griffws said:


> In this case the home inspection had already occurred. The homeowner sent me the inspection report. She specifically asked me to drive the ground rod but not to fix the few other problems shown in the report.
> 
> At the time, it seemed to be a quick and easy fix. In retrospect, turned out to be a mess.
> 
> ...


Yeah, well, anybody can pound in a ground rod. And anybody can sell a house. It isn't rocket surgery.

Turn your back on the loser sisters. Tell them to pay up or you will hand them over to a collection agency. Then forget about them.

There are some realtors I respect but most of them are pond scum.


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## ELECTRICK2 (Feb 21, 2015)

griffws said:


> In this case the home inspection had already occurred. The homeowner sent me the inspection report. She specifically asked me to drive the ground rod but not to fix the few other problems shown in the report.
> 
> At the time, it seemed to be a quick and easy fix. In retrospect, turned out to be a mess.
> 
> ...


I hate those "Just fix this and ignore that" calls. I usually tell them up front I don't want to be involved with a job like that. If you were the last electrician on site before the house burned down.....


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

I would still want my money. And the $150 is for knowing to pound the rod not cut it off.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

backstay said:


> ......the $150 is for the trip charge.......



Fify.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

480sparky said:


> Fify.


I was speaking to the "anyone could have pounded the rod down" and "why didn't you just cut it off" comments.


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## griffws (Oct 24, 2008)

Regarding making contact with the realtors, I have not done any directed marketing. 

That sort of work has come about by word of mouth for us.


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## btharmy (Jan 17, 2009)

I just got approval to do a sales inspection job I quoted Wednesday. I am fixing everything on the list but the inspector overlooked more than he noted on the report. I'm going to try and upsell, to resolve other issues while I'm already there. Email approval is my friend. Also, the key box is wirelessly connected. The realtor can set temporary codes for contractors remotely. Pretty slick.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

when working for realtor or buyer prior to sale, 
1) send a proposal to be signed showing trip charge and rates (?)
2) attach a note that you will proceed after receiving signed proposal, along
with title agent/company 

knowing the title agent makes getting paid a piece of cake, no matter what. notifying the title clerk in writing that you are owed money effectively holds up settlement until you send them a statement that you were paid.

besides, you should never get mad. just get even.


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## griffws (Oct 24, 2008)

Thanks wildleg. That is great information. I'll add that to my arsenal.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

I should've added that you still need to file a lien, and that notifying the title clerk that you are filing the lien is key.


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## BababooeyHTJ (May 31, 2013)

Were there two rods?


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## griffws (Oct 24, 2008)

There was a single ground rod.

Under 2014 NEC we've been driving two ground rods. That gets around trying to prove resistance to earth is less than 25ohms. (Is 25ohms right?)

Of course, once I touch it, an inspector could say it must meet current code.


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## BababooeyHTJ (May 31, 2013)

griffws said:


> There was a single ground rod.
> 
> Under 2014 NEC we've been driving two ground rods. That gets around trying to prove resistance to earth is less than 25ohms. (Is 25ohms right?)
> 
> Of course, once I touch it, an inspector could say it must meet current code.


That's what I would worry about if trying to go for a lein.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

BababooeyHTJ said:


> That's what I would worry about if trying to go for a lein.


That's not how the courts think or work.

ALL that matters is that you are:

1) Licensed for the jurisdiction.

2) Testify// have proof of work performed .

3) Have filed a timely complaint. ( you snooze, you lose )

4) And your fee is normal and customary // or is in writing. 

The bigger the $$$ the more you want it in writing. 

The courts understand that a trivial one-day sales and service call is not going to start out as a written contract.

5) And you are in the right jurisdiction... and the right court. (typ small claims)

Strangely, for a service call -- there is never a demand that the work is inspected or that a permit was pulled -- unless you've exceeded the limit.

In California, a repair ticket is limited to $750 -- max.

A build ticket is limited to $500 -- max -- from that point on up, you need a permit.

All repair permits are waived during declared disasters, BTW.

&&&

Having said all that, my personal performance standards are such that I can' t do half-a$$ed work.

If the ground rod is in wet ground -- normal soils -- it will absolutely have less than 25 Ohms of resistance. Resistance will be so low that it's hard to measure.

But, then, I have the equipment to test ground resistance. 

A *Wheatstone bridge* is an electrical circuit used to measure an unknown electrical resistance by balancing two legs of a bridge circuit, one leg of which includes the unknown component. The primary benefit of a wheatstone bridge is its ability to provide extremely accurate measurements (in contrast with something like a simple voltage divider).[1] Its operation is similar to the original potentiometer. It was invented by Samuel Hunter Christie in 1833 and improved and popularized by Sir Charles Wheatstone in 1843. *One of the Wheatstone bridge's initial uses was for the purpose of soils analysis and comparison.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheatstone_bridge#cite_note-2
*
Wiki

Visit the Wiki for the simple circuit diagram. The professional testers are polished up versions of this fundamental circuit, BTW.


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## BababooeyHTJ (May 31, 2013)

Is it common practice to not bring repairs up to current standards? In most areas around here even a job that small world require a permit. Was there any sort of paperwork signed beforehand? 

Every HO that I've ever talked to tells me a fraction of what's on the home inspection report. I always ask for it and try to go over it with them.

I'm not saying that I wouldn't have done the same especially if there is a real grounding electrode like a water pipe.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

I could tell you horror stories of the HI/Realtor/HO electrical gang bang

Most of these people aren't certified past their hubris , WE are.

They do not constitute your marching orders in the litigant arena

which sugars off to _ (and no, i'm not making this up folks)_

I.E.~ If WE are the last certified entity WE should give THEM a report

~CS~


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## btharmy (Jan 17, 2009)

griffws said:


> There was a single ground rod. Under 2014 NEC we've been driving two ground rods. That gets around trying to prove resistance to earth is less than 25ohms. (Is 25ohms right?) Of course, once I touch it, an inspector could say it must meet current code.


Of course, who would pull a permit, thus triggering an inspection for simply knocking a ground rod a few inches into the dirt? Not me, I can promise you that.


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## gnuuser (Jan 13, 2013)

griffws said:


> There was a single ground rod.
> 
> Under 2014 NEC we've been driving two ground rods. That gets around trying to prove resistance to earth is less than 25ohms. (Is 25ohms right?)
> 
> Of course, once I touch it, an inspector could say it must meet current code.


even with 2 rods some soil conditions can exceed 25 ohms. 
thus requiring driving extra rods.

cutting a rod off is an instant fail in our area rods must be driven full length into the ground

I also test ground resistance during installs and upgrades!

to the op file a lien for services 
you are the professional and qualified tradesman in the electrical field
and unless the realter can produce a license as an electrician she is not qualified to make the assesment or to challenge your work
tell the realter that if she wants to practice shady tactics then its her own neck on the line


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

gnuuser said:


> even with 2 rods some soil conditions can exceed 25 ohms.
> thus requiring driving extra rods.
> .......



So? You're not required to keep driving rods until you reach 25 ohms. If one rod doesn't get you 25 ohms, drive a second one and call it a day.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

Just drive the ground rod in and document on your invoice all the code violations you observed. Mail a copy to the prospective buyer.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

griffws said:


> Made the repair by loosening the acorn clamp. It wasn't corodded or locked up. Drove the rod in with the 8 lb maul. Then reconnected the grounding conductor.


Probably lucky you didn't pound it through the sewer or water pipe but I don't know why you would waive your fee.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

sbrn33 said:


> Probably lucky you didn't pound it through the sewer or water pipe but I don't know why you would waive your fee.


I find it amazing how few of us call in for locates when driving rods where there's buried utilities. 

Even if there's no evidence of a utility where I'm sinking a rod, 811 gets a call anyway.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

480sparky said:


> I find it amazing how few of us call in for locates when driving rods where there's buried utilities.
> 
> Even if there's no evidence of a utility where I'm sinking a rod, 811 gets a call anyway.


Me too. :thumbsup:

That's 'busy' ground.

The Service lateral, and the gas Service are normally hard by.


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## griffws (Oct 24, 2008)

Yeah, makes sense to call in for a locate before driving ground rods. But we've never done it. Crazy stuff can happen but I usually picture the tip of the ground rod skipping off or pushing away any pipe or wire. Rocks and footings are a different problem...

A locate would find the gas and utility lateral. Would it would find the deeper sewer and water lines? I don't think I've seen them when I look at the spray painted locate lines. 

Deeper in MN but shallower in warmer areas...


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

griffws said:


> .......A locate would find the gas and utility lateral. Would it would find the deeper sewer and water lines? I don't think I've seen them when I look at the spray painted locate lines. .........



They'd better. If not, they're liable for the damage.


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