# Back stabbng



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

110.3(B).

The devices are listed for use with 14 AWG not 12 AWG.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

leland said:


> Yes, I know most of the opinions here on this topic.Not what I'm looking for.
> 
> Specifically,
> I was told and have read on this forum that it is OK to Bstab #14 on devices.
> ...


There is no code reference but the device that are rated for back stabbing are only good for #14. They used to be good for #12 but the manufacturers changed that. 12 gauge wire will not fit thru the hole.


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

I must be old, I remember when they disallowed that.
On the 'friction' type. had to be of the clamp type.
Never realized that it was revisited.

Thank you. :thumbsup:


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

I believe they found some issues with back stabbing #12 wire so they stopped producing receptacles for #12. I had a friend that was so mad he threatened to drill the hole in the back of the receptacles just so he could back stab. 

Personally I never use the back and always wrap around the screw. I have seen too many receptacles fail with back stabs-- but that's another debate that will go on for days.


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## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

I'm going to say at least 80% of resi service calls I've done have been backstabs.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

My take on backstabbing:

Perfectly legal, but in 2000 the change was made to disallow backstabbing 12.

Some people think they can 'tap' a 20a circuit with 14 just so they can backstab. Nope, not legal.

But for those of you who want to backstab, go right ahead. Please, be my guest. Indulge yourself. Be happy. I'll just put more money in my pocket down the road when they start to fail and my phone starts ringing. :laughing:


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

mattsilkwood said:


> I'm going to say at least 80% of resi service calls I've done have been backstabs.


Eighty percent? No way. No flippin way. Unless of course you do very few residential service calls.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

electricmanscott said:


> Eighty percent? No way. No flippin way. Unless of course you do very few residential service calls.


 

On average, I can't say that I see one more than the other, and if anything, I see more on the screws than not. I chaned the devices in a house yesterday, the original installer stripped wires longer than normal, wrapped first screw, tightened, then wrapped second screw. All devices were done this way. The wire hit both screws.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Seems to me if you provide the same level of quality on a job you are only making 5% on than you do on a job making 40% you are screwing the customer paying more.

What do I mean?

I mean those that pay for Kia get a Kia from me, those that pay for a Bentley get a Bentley from me.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

mcclary's electrical said:


> On average, I can't say that I see one more than the other, and if anything, I see more on the screws than not. I chaned the devices in a house yesterday, the original installer stripped wires longer than normal, wrapped first screw, tightened, then wrapped second screw. All devices were done this way. The wire hit both screws.



No pix? :001_huh: Not that we don't believe you, but still........ _no pix?_


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> On average, I can't say that I see one more than the other, and if anything, I see more on the screws than not. I chaned the devices in a house yesterday, the original installer stripped wires longer than normal, wrapped first screw, tightened, then wrapped second screw. All devices were done this way. The wire hit both screws.


 I have seen this. D I Y customer said, he wanted to make sure both halves of duplex would be live.


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## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

electricmanscott said:


> Eighty percent? No way. No flippin way. Unless of course you do very few residential service calls.


 Back when I did resi it seems like it was normaly a backstab or a loose joint.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

oldtimer said:


> I have seen this. D I Y customer said, he wanted to make sure both halves of duplex would be live.


 

Funny!.....tell him don't forget to tape up so you don't lose electrons:whistling2:


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

mattsilkwood said:


> I'm going to say at least 80% of resi service calls I've done have been backstabs.



If I get a call about a receptacle not working or lights not working maybe 30% of the time it is a backstabbed receptacle or aluminum wiring. All the big house roping companies backstab here. I love people who do it(future service call for us) and we never do it. I've seen too many burnt up and others loose causing loss of hot or neutral or both.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Do they still manufacture the back stab only devices in TR ?


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

I rarely see back stabbing issues and when I do, it's simply a set of plugs not working. When I see burned up receptical's it's always wired on the screws.


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

bkessler said:


> i rarely see back stabbing issues and when i do, it's simply a set of plugs not working. When i see burned up receptical's it's always wired on the screws.


 good pics.


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

Those are not the original plugs. In each case the plugs were replaced by a, what I have kindly termed "non electrician", so when I get a no power call, if I see that all the plugs have been replaced, I know that odds are there is a side wired outlet with the screws not tightened down.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Of course failure is bound to happen if the screws are loose or not properly installed. The backstab device cannot really be installed improperly and they fail. I will go on record to say that 90%- 95% of the calls I get about power being off on half the circuit is because of a back stabbed device.


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Of course failure is bound to happen if the screws are loose or not properly installed. The backstab device cannot really be installed improperly and they fail. I will go on record to say that 90%- 95% of the calls I get about power being off on half the circuit is because of a back stabbed device.


the houses those 95% are in my guess would be homes that are all built from about 1985 and newer? 

For the record, I pigtail everything and backstab when the option is available.


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## LARMGUY (Aug 22, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Funny!.....tell him don't forget to tape up so you don't lose electrons:whistling2:


You forgot the RED tape.:laughing:


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

I have seen alot of failures with the spec grade screw back wire when used with solid wire. A NYC contractor I worked for years ago would have use pigtail and then backstab to the device.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Shockdoc said:


> I have seen alot of failures with the spec grade screw back wire when used with solid wire. A NYC contractor I worked for years ago would have use pigtail and then backstab to the device.


How do you backstab with 12?


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

480sparky said:


> How do you backstab with 12?


Those were the days prior to the smaller ga. restriction


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## etb (Sep 8, 2010)

480sparky said:


> ... the change was made to disallow backstabbing 12. Some people think they can 'tap' a 20a circuit with 14 just so they can backstab. Nope, not legal.


14 pigtail on a 12? Why even bother to run a 20 with that tough ole 12?:jester: Around here the hacks just run 14 for everything...problem solved.

Dumb call by the CMP, IMO. I didn't read why they changed it, but they must have found the backstabs to be unsatisfactory, so why allow it on 14?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

etb said:


> ...........Dumb call by the CMP, IMO. I didn't read why they changed it, but they must have found the backstabs to be unsatisfactory, so why allow it on 14?


It wasn't a dumb call by the CMP because the CMP didn't make it. It's a UL listing thing.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Bkessler said:


> I rarely see back stabbing issues and when I do, it's simply a set of plugs not working. When I see burned up receptical's it's always wired on the screws.




I suspect they weren't wired correctly in the first place. All it takes is for one jackass-wannabe electrician going counterclockwise and NOT tightening terminals well and this is what you get. Peter D work right there. :whistling2:


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

electricmanscott said:


> Eighty percent? No way. No flippin way. Unless of course you do very few residential service calls.


80% is a high number. 

Bad fuse, tripped breaker, or a bad GFCI are the usual culprits.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Bkessler said:


> I rarely see back stabbing issues and when I do, it's simply a set of plugs not working. When I see burned up receptical's it's always wired on the screws.


Far left looks like aluminum on the ground screw. Second from left looks like #10, and poorly terminated at that. The three on the right look backstabbed to me. Second from right looks like aluminum as well.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Far left looks like aluminum on the ground screw. Second from left looks like #10, and poorly terminated at that. The three on the right look backstabbed to me. Second from right looks like aluminum as well.



:sleep1::sleep1:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Bob Badger said:


> :sleep1::sleep1:


Peter D is alive and well and living with Bob!


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Peter D is alive and well and living with Bob!


I think he is sleeping with Bob:sleep1::sleep1:


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Peter D is alive and well and living with Bob!





Dennis Alwon said:


> I think he is sleeping with Bob



Is that what you think? 


I had no idea that either of you were so intellectually challenged.:whistling2:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Bob Badger said:


> Is that what you think?
> 
> 
> I had no idea that either of you were so intellectually challenged.:whistling2:



Compared to you, everyone is. :blink:


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> I had no idea that either of you were so intellectually challenged.:whistling2:


You have no idea how bad it is living in this skin.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Dennis Alwon said:


> You have no idea how bad it is living in this skin.



Bob has very few ideas. :laughing:


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