# F96T12 HO issues



## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

I was working on changing out (10) electronic ballasts the other day. The store owner supplied the ballasts so that might be the issue but I don't know everything so I'm asking. 

Anyway, I always test the first ballast change and did so here. When I wired up the new ballast the lights came on right away. No problems. Then when I went and put the fixture cover on and put the bulbs back in, the lights wouldn't come on. 

The ballasts given to me were electronic ballasts but it had 2 reds, 2 blues, and 2 yellows, and obviously black and white. :whistling2: The ballasts I was taking out had 4 reds, 1 yellow, and black and white and were long, flat, and silver in color. 

Please clue me in on why the lamps would light before - but not after - the fixture cover went on. I have no idea until I'm reminded of something I'm not doing. Thank you!


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Were you touching the lamp or fixture when it lit the first time, and not the second? I've seen ungrounded fixtures play funny tricks like that.

-John


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Big John said:


> Were you touching the lamp or fixture when it lit the first time, and not the second? I've seen ungrounded fixtures play funny tricks like that.
> 
> -John


The fixtures aren't too old and they're wired with MC cable. The EGC was attached from what i can remember. Yes, the second time I installed the bulbs I was standing on the ground in a basement.


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## Awg-Dawg (Jan 23, 2007)

I believe they have
'Lamp End-Of-Life Protection Circuit'​Removes power to lamps upon lamp failure
 .

Did you remove the lamps and leave the power on the second time?


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

..................


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

I think your tombstones are shunted wrong for that setup. I think you'll need to seperate two tombstones on one end.


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*yellow*

couldnt you just tie the two yellows to 1 existing yellow (common) ??


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## surf (Jan 17, 2012)

Did you rewire the fixtures?


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

McClary's and Cletis - I tried both of those ways and after wasting 3 hours scratching my head I told him I'd have to come back. 

The lamps came right on when I connected my hot wire as the last connection. Then when I made the connection and put the cover back on and reinstalled the lamps, they would not light. :wallbash:


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*common*

I would say either it's affecting the grounding which messes up t-12's occasionally or something about cover closing is maybe stretched a common lead in tomestone and pulled it loose/off ?? See if your getting around 600volts or so from hot to common next time your out to start


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Magnettica said:


> I was working on changing out (10) electronic ballasts the other day. The store owner supplied the ballasts so that might be the issue but I don't know everything so I'm asking.
> 
> Anyway, I always test the first ballast change and did so here. When I wired up the new ballast the lights came on right away. No problems. Then when I went and put the fixture cover on and put the bulbs back in, the lights wouldn't come on.
> 
> ...


:whistling2::no::laughing:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Magnettica said:


> I was working on changing out (10) electronic ballasts the other day. The store owner supplied the ballasts so that might be the issue but I don't know everything so I'm asking.
> 
> Anyway, I always test the first ballast change and did so here. When I wired up the new ballast the lights came on right away. No problems. Then when I went and put the fixture cover on and put the bulbs back in, the lights wouldn't come on.
> 
> ...





> The ballasts given to me were electronic ballasts but it had 2 reds, 2 blues, and 2 yellows, and obviously black and white.


Those should be 2 lamp HO rapid start ballast's 




> The ballasts I was taking out had 4 reds, 1 yellow, and black and white and were long, flat, and silver in color.


Those are 277Volt Slimline ballasts for F96t12 slimline lamps like these.









If they are F96T12 HO lamps the ends will look like this.










And 8' T12HO BALLAST will have 2 yellows to the female sockets and 2 blues to 1 male socket and 2 reds to the other male socket.regardless of the voltage.



In a slimline ballast 120 volt there will be 1 blue to 1 male socket and 1 red to the other male socket.

the white from the ballast will go to 1 of the female sockets(The white and red have to be on the same lamp otherwise only 1 lamp will light.:thumbsup:


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*Harry*

I didn't know you were a ballast/bulb type of guy harry ?


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> ..................


I can't believe you said that...:no::laughing::laughing:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Cletis said:


> I didn't know you were a ballast/bulb type of guy harry ?


I know a little something about all this fun stuff...:thumbsup::laughing:


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

HARRY304E said:


> Those should be 2 lamp HO rapid start ballast's
> 
> 
> Those are 277Volt Slimline ballasts for F96t12 slimline lamps like these.
> ...


I definitely have:










The ballast says to have the yellow leads to the plunger end. That's not how it was wired last time so that's what I did. Actually, I wired it several ways that all worked but all failed after putting the cover back up. 

Btw, when you say male end, you do mean the plunger end, correct? 

The fixtures are definitely less than 10 years old, shops very little wear, no rust, or anything like that. It's actually a hockey equipment store and I have to back to pick up my new Reebok 11k's.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Magnettica said:


> I definitely have:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Absolutely make sure that the ballast's are HO's and yes the male sockets have the springs the female sockets just have the proper configuration for the type of lamp to slip in...:laughing:


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

HARRY304E said:


> I know a little something about all this fun stuff...:thumbsup::laughing:





HARRY304E said:


> Absolutely make sure that the ballast's are HO's and yes the male sockets have the springs the female sockets just have the proper configuration for the type of lamp to slip in...:laughing:


I'm not looking forward to this headache later this week. :no:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

BTW the male sockets usually take the red and blue wires.:thumbsup:


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

HARRY304E said:


> BTW the male sockets usually take the red and blue wires.:thumbsup:


That's what I had.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Magnettica said:


> I'm not looking forward to this headache later this week. :no:


Just make sure that the ballast are for HO's and the lamps are the F96HOT12-110 watt lamps for cold temp.:thumbsup:

Do not use the 95 watt F96T12 HO's the moonbats want you to use because they do not warm up unless it is about 72 F.

you can still buy the F96T12 HO's in the 110 watt type ...

http://www.1000bulbs.com/product/56806/FHO-25134S.html


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## Dhfisher (May 6, 2011)

Is it just possible that the covers are pushing back the "tombstones"enough to break connection with the tube ends?


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Dhfisher said:


> Is it just possible that the covers are pushing back the "tombstones"enough to break connection with the tube ends?


 
It possible but if the clips do line up staight the tombstone should be straight for sure.

Mag.,

I think this been covered by others but S.V.P. double check the male end of the tombstone to make sure it is not shunted and also when you put the cover back on double check to make sure the conductors are not pintched.

Is this is a 120 volt verison or 277 volt verison of this electronque ballast ??

Also double check the wattage or bulb type if that ballast can take as Harry did cover that part.

Merci,
Marc


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## Slider (Jun 3, 2008)

Old fixtures were not made by keystone where they. I had an entire small store of (25) F96T12HO ballast go bad a few at a time within a couple years someone installed them. Had a weird fix to make them work. Had to replace the ballast. All the lampholders were not making very good contact in any of the fixtures. None would lite once I changed the ballast. Had to take a small screw driver and spread the contacts in the lampholders apart just slightly. I tried to get new lampholders but no one carrys the type for these fixtures. May have to change the entire fixtures if this comes back to haunt me. Fixtures have been fine now for over a year now though. Probably not your issue but thought I would mention it.


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## new shocker (Feb 4, 2012)

Its the shunted tombstones, you need to get unshunted tombstones then the blues together (on each side of the tombstone), along with red on the next tombstone, and make sure the yellow wires are on the other end of the lamp and (again unshunted tombstones) that the two yellow wire go to each end of each tombstone of each lamp. Hope this clears it up for ya :thumbup:


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

new shocker said:


> Its the shunted tombstones, you need to get unshunted tombstones then the blues together (on each side of the tombstone), along with red on the next tombstone, and make sure the yellow wires are on the other end of the lamp and (again unshunted tombstones) that the two yellow wire go to each end of each tombstone of each lamp. Hope this clears it up for ya :thumbup:


I think we have a winner!


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Is there a way to unshunt them?


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Magnettica said:


> Is there a way to unshunt them?


The tomb stones on an HO fixture do not come shunted.

But if they are then there would be a wire connected from one side to the other.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

HARRY304E said:


> The tomb stones on an HO fixture do not come shunted.
> 
> But if they are then there would be a wire connected from one side to the other.


nevermind


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*S*

Shunted Sockets: With the new T8 lamps we now have a bi-pin lamp that can be instant or rapid started. Shunted sockets connect the two pins on one lamp end together to prevent damage to the filament when using an instant start ballast. This eliminates the need to install wire jumpers, and makes for easier wiring of the fixture. It is important to remember that shunted sockets are for use with instant start ballasts only. Operating a rapid start ballast on a fixture with shunted sockets will damage the rapid start ballast.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

Magnettica said:


> Is there a way to unshunt them?


I think you just pull the jumper out. Is that not a shunt? The little jumper between the tombstones? 



new shocker said:


> Its the shunted tombstones, you need to get unshunted tombstones then the blues together (on each side of the tombstone), along with red on the next tombstone, and make sure the yellow wires are on the other end of the lamp and (again unshunted tombstones) that the two yellow wire go to each end of each tombstone of each lamp. Hope this clears it up for ya :thumbup:


Good post. Let me ask. I have changed from magnetic to electronic before and had to do nothing but rewire the fixture to match the diagram on the new ballast. Are you saying there is more to do than follow the new diagram?


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Back to this job this afternoon. I hope I can get through this. This work is a trade off for some new hockey skates and I really want the skates for Wednesday night. :thumbup:


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

John Valdes said:


> I think you just pull the jumper out. Is that not a shunt? The little jumper between the tombstones?



I believe I tried that - and I wired the light to the diagram listed on the ballast. The lights came on. The problem occurred when I went to take the lamps back out to put the fixture cover back on that when I put the lamps back in after that the lamps would not come on. I'm trying to explain that as clearly as possible. The fixtures are not more than a decade old.


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## Jefftheroper (Aug 1, 2011)

I would just leave the cover off problem solved  Or maybe your lamps are in backwards! GL nothing really to add but hurassment!


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

I persevered and got it done. Now I'm getting my skates molded. Thanks for the help guys.


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## GDK 13 (Oct 6, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> I persevered and got it done. Now I'm getting my skates molded. Thanks for the help guys.


thanks for telling us what the problem was :thumbsup:


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## CanadianSparky (May 10, 2011)

people still install t12 ballasts?


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

CanadianSparky said:


> people still install t12 ballasts?


New T-12 electronic ballast for the High Output and few special size which they are not normally a common item.

Don't bother to find a new magatic ballast in the supply centre it is pretty much all gone by now. ( unless you have few in your shelf )

Merci,
Marc


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## crazyboy (Nov 8, 2008)

Awg-Dawg said:


> I believe they have
> 'Lamp End-Of-Life Protection Circuit'​Removes power to lamps upon lamp failure
> .
> 
> Did you remove the lamps and leave the power on the second time?


X2

Typing so the message meets the required length.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

crazyboy said:


> X2
> 
> Typing so the message meets the required length.


The light that I could not get to come on when i LEFT THE last time, came on when I got there. I had to unshunt them sand rewire the fixture(s). Eleven of them. Last time there I never turned the switches off for the lights. I'm guessing that had something to do with starting the HO's. :whistling2:


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## NWElectrician (Oct 8, 2011)

I've noticed that on new Advance electronic HO ballasts. Get them wired in right, but have to cycle power to them to light after the bulbs are installed (with power already on of course) then they work fine afterwards. Glad to see it wasn't just me noticing that


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

OK time to hijack this thread just a little.

Today, I get a call from an old customer that has been complaining that his VHO ballasts are only lasting a month or so and he is getting frustrated with the whole VHO thing.
His guys change the ballasts so the first thing I suspect is that the wired them wrong or, like last time I came by for the same problem, they were installing HO lamps with VHO ballasts.

I checked out the wiring, all correct. Magnetic Ballasts. Two blues, two reds, two yellows. I even checked for the infamous "shunted sockets" all good.
Next I check out the lamps. All were 1500ma which I remember to be VHO.

The lamps are very hot to the touch and I also can see that the ends of the lamps are burning up.

The lamps look suspiciously like HOs but are stamped 1500.

Any suggestions? 
I would like to switch them over to T-5s if anyone has a suggestion for a retrofit kit.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Bump, to see if I get any new responses.

My question is : 
Are F96T12CW-1500 215 watt lamps considered to be VHO?

Is there a way to tell the difference between HO and VHO without looking at the label?


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

Whats a VHO? I know what an HO is. Never heard the term VHO?


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

John Valdes said:


> Whats a VHO? I know what an HO is. Never heard the term VHO?


HO = High Output

VHO = Very High Output

SHO = Super High Output


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## kbsparky (Sep 20, 2007)

jrannis said:


> Bump, to see if I get any new responses.
> 
> My question is :
> Are F96T12CW-1500 215 watt lamps considered to be VHO?
> ...


Yes, 1500ma/215 watt lamps are VHO

No, you can't tell the diff unless you look at the label.

(FWIW: 800 ma lamps are HO)


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

jrannis said:


> OK time to hijack this thread just a little.
> 
> Today, I get a call from an old customer that has been complaining that his VHO ballasts are only lasting a month or so and he is getting frustrated with the whole VHO thing.
> His guys change the ballasts so the first thing I suspect is that the wired them wrong or, like last time I came by for the same problem, they were installing HO lamps with VHO ballasts.
> ...


.........


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

jrannis said:


> Bump, to see if I get any new responses.
> 
> My question is :
> Are F96T12CW-1500 215 watt lamps considered to be VHO?
> ...


When you look at a VHO lamp especially GE VHO Lamps you can see a gray ban about an inch or so from the end of the lamp that is where the cathode is located so when you fire up those lamps you will see cathode glow during the start and it gets more noticeable as the lamps age that ban will get darker over time from the number of starts.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

BBQ said:


> HO = High Output
> 
> VHO = Very High Output
> 
> SHO = Super High Output


Are SHO's still made? I don't recall ever seeing them.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

HARRY304E said:


> Are SHO's still made? I don't recall ever seeing them.


You may be right ......


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

HARRY304E said:


> Are SHO's still made? I don't recall ever seeing them.





BBQ said:


> You may be right ......


Just a head up the SHO and VHO are the same thing all it depending on the manufacter some will qoute SHO and some will say VHO but basically both are the same.

Merci,
Marc


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Yeah and I remember the Power Groove type too.

We did quite a bit of work with different sized HO lamps back in my sign building days. 

I still cant figure out the reason for the short life of the VHO ballasts. I still think the lamps are mislabeled or something weird like that.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

jrannis said:


> Yeah and I remember the Power Groove type too.
> 
> We did quite a bit of work with different sized HO lamps back in my sign building days.
> 
> I still cant figure out the reason for the short life of the VHO ballasts. I still think the lamps are mislabeled or something weird like that.


The most common curpit to kill the VHO by two different modes.

Mode A ., Wrong bulb used the 800 ma on 1500 ma ballast which result a short life on the bulb itself. ( this is the most common one I have ran into )

Mode B ., did not leave any spacing on the top of the luminarie to keep the ballast cool. They do intended to run hot all the time.

Yeah they are noisey as well which that is expected.( unless you have electronic ballast )

Merci,
Marc


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## swimmer (Mar 19, 2011)

HARRY304E said:


> Those should be 2 lamp HO rapid start ballast's
> 
> 
> Those are 277Volt Slimline ballasts for F96t12 slimline lamps like these.
> ...


Harry, Is a rapid start socket the one used for F96T12 HO? I wired in a ballast and it didn't work with the bulb in your top picture. I then noticed "Use only with rapid start sockets" printed on the ballast.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

swimmer said:


> Harry, Is a rapid start socket the one used for F96T12 HO? I wired in a ballast and it didn't work with the bulb in your top picture. I then noticed "Use only with rapid start sockets" printed on the ballast.





swimmer said:


> Is a rapid start socket the one used for F96T12 HO?


Yes.


The top bulb is a slimline trigger start lamp.http://www.unvlt.com/techsupport/troubleshooting_guides/lin_a.html


*Instant Start (Slimline) Ballast*

Because of wiring variations between ballast manufacturers, and the availability of Series and Lead-Lag ballast circuits, miswiring is the most frequently encountered cause of Slimline system problems. Check the manufacturer’s catalog or the ballast label for the correct wiring diagram.
Typical variations in Slimline wiring.
Check the ballast label!








(_click on charts above to enlarge_) The starting voltage is measured across the primary and secondary leads to the sockets, using a high resistance voltmeter with a range of zero to 1000 volts.
*Minimum Starting Voltage*



F72T12 – 475 volts
F96T12 – 565 volts


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

I think Mag would of fixed this by now.....


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Dnkldorf said:


> I think Mag would of fixed this by now.....


 *swimmer just bumped the thread.*


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

They're fixed. I believe i had to rewire the bulb holders, or I had the wrong ballasts, or a combination of both. Anyway, I got through this by persevering.


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## jmellc (Feb 25, 2011)

I see this is an old thread but I just had a similar problem and found out a few things I didn't know. 

I have been replacing some T12HO lights with T8HO ballasts & tubes, sockets as needed. Diagram on ballast says the usual with 2 reds to a socket and 2 blues to the socket next to it, then 2 yellows to the other end, wire to each socket and a jumper between, for a series connection. 

I assumed since they were HO, that the T12's were same hookup. Never assume anything, I keep learning the hard way. Some of my lights lit up, others didn't. 1 I hooked up last thing & didn't work was lit when I came in next day. 

Well, T12 had parallell connection on yellow end AND had red/blue on plungers, yellow on others. I was getting totally confused but did a couple of new ones like the old ones. Mixed results again. 

I checked out Universal's website and found their only online diagram for F96 T8 HO showed yellows in parallell AND specified yellows to the plunger socket. I tried that next day and all good. Same day, a rep from Universal returned my call. Turns out the diagram on ballast is right but they left out the yellow/plunger note. Somewhere in the scheme of things, OSHA mandated either yellows to plunger and ballast will not light tubes otherwise unless power is turned off & back on. Safety issue with yellow being considered neutral & safer to install tubes hot this way. But they still have the parallell diagram on their site and not the one from the ballast. 

I don't know how I missed any of this the last 2-3 years but it is all quite a lesson. Now, all work fine. I thank the rep that clued me in but I'm irritated with Universal for not printing the yellow leads note on the ballast. No one would think of it without having heard a discussion on it.


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