# Old wall sconce needs a little love (and hardware)



## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

I have this sconce to wire and hang. Right now all I have is a new piece of romex hanging out of the wall. The customer is having wainscoting installed high and where the fixture will be mounted. I would like some installation ideas, mainly attaching it to the wall without having to see the box. Not sure what the hell I'm gonna do here but I'm gonna try to do something good.


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## GoodLookingUglyGuy (Feb 3, 2010)

You may want to talk to ahj there is a inline consealable romex splice kit available might work nice for this application


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## Ocularpatdown (Apr 27, 2010)

GoodLookingUglyGuy said:


> You may want to talk to ahj there is a inline consealable romex splice kit available might work nice for this application


Would that kit work splicing romex to fixture wire?


Is this installation being inspected? If not, I would be compelled to set the box back into the wall and install a handibox blank cover plate with a 1 1/8" hole in the middle, install a rubber bushing in the hole and pull the wires out, then have them put the wainscoting right over it with only the hole exposed. 

Wire the fixture up, push the wirenuts back into the box, and attach the fixture to the wall.


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

how high up?


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

BuzzKill said:


> how high up?


Somewhere between 60-72".


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

set some sort of box, get a flat cover, plaster over it real smooth, cut out a hole for the the wire to poke through...It will take some really good drywall work.


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

I would use a brass back plate or something to hide the box. Tell the owner there is no real code compliant way to hang that light as is.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

How about a RACO #640 box?








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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

captkirk said:


> I would use a brass back plate or something to hide the box. Tell the owner there is no real code compliant way to hang that light as is.


That is my thinking as well.


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

Bob Badger said:


> That is my thinking as well.


good suggestion


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

I had to rewire a B&B that had those little skinny sconces all over the place. What I did was take a cue from the old Wiremold installation handbooks and made a "zero cubic inch box", like people used to make for surface mounted fixtures that were getting Wiremold run in the side of the canopy.

To make a zero cubic inch box, lay the fixture on a piece of sheet metal and trace around it with a Sharpie. Carefully cut out the pattern, keeping just inside the line. Drill or punch a knockout in the middle. Install your romex connector in the middle, and makeup the fixture splice inside the canopy of the fixture. This method essentially uses the fixture canopy as the wiring compartment, and the sheet metal plate is the back of the box.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

http://www.antiquelampsupply.com/category/217/


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## GoodLookingUglyGuy (Feb 3, 2010)

MDShunk said:


> I had to rewire a B&B that had those little skinny sconces all over the place. What I did was take a cue from the old Wiremold installation handbooks and made a "zero cubic inch box", like people used to make for surface mounted fixtures that were getting Wiremold run in the side of the canopy.
> 
> To make a zero cubic inch box, lay the fixture on a piece of sheet metal and trace around it with a Sharpie. Carefully cut out the pattern, keeping just inside the line. Drill or punch a knockout in the middle. Install your romex connector in the middle, and makeup the fixture splice inside the canopy of the fixture. This method essentially uses the fixture canopy as the wiring compartment, and the sheet metal plate is the back of the box.


I like this idea. 14 gauge wire some sort of butt splice or maybe do a lineman splice/ knob and tube solder and heat shrink... how do you mount that thing. I don't see nay screw holes in the fixture


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## user438 (Jun 6, 2007)

Only thing I can think of besides the back plate idea is to use a box that made for those door switches. They are designed to be mounted in the door frame. About 1" wide and 3" deep with a 1/2" ko in back.

Let me do some googling


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## user438 (Jun 6, 2007)

something like this

http://www.galesburgelectric.com/Leviton-1865-3A-125V-Door-Jamb-Box-Switch.html

Let me try and find some specs on the width


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## user438 (Jun 6, 2007)

this one is showing the width to be 1 1/4"

http://www.westsidewholesale.com/do...al-grade.html?cm_mmc=shopzilla-_-na-_-na-_-na

If you take the switch out, the box is almost like an old work box with top and bottom flages, you could just use plastic anchors to mount to drywall


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

You can't splice within a door jamb box so that's about the same as splicing inside the fixture body, which aint legal either.

Without hiding or mudding over a box or cover or blank of some kind there's no legal way to install the sconce. 
Issue is, once installed, you would have to damage wall/paint to service/inspect.


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## user438 (Jun 6, 2007)

Rudeboy said:


> You can't splice within a door jamb box so that's about the same as splicing inside the fixture body, which aint legal either.
> 
> Without hiding or mudding over a box or cover or blank of some kind there's no legal way to install the sconce.
> Issue is, once installed, you would have to damage wall/paint to service/inspect.


Why can't you splice in a door jam box ? how do you connect your wiring to it when you use it for an actual door jam switch


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## Ocularpatdown (Apr 27, 2010)

Rudeboy said:


> You can't splice within a door jamb box so that's about the same as splicing inside the fixture body, which aint legal either.
> 
> Without hiding or mudding over a box or cover or blank of some kind there's no legal way to install the sconce.
> Issue is, once installed, you would have to damage wall/paint to service/inspect.


If you use the method I spelled out earlier in the thread, you will be able to pull the wires out thru the hole to service or troubleshoot. A 1 1/8" hole is plenty to pull wire and some 3M orange/blue wirenuts out thru.

Since it's wainscoting, the paneling can have a 1 1/8" hole drilled in it to correspond with the hole in the cover plate on the box. No spackling or drywalling to worry about. It might not be perfectly code compliant, but at least the splices are boxed and it's still accessible.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

Rich R said:


> Why can't you splice in a door jam box ? how do you connect your wiring to it when you use it for an actual door jam switch


You feed the fixture first.

I don't know what the cu. inch is on those boxes but practically speaking, you wouldn't feel good about splicing within one.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

Ocularpatdown said:


> If you use the method I spelled out earlier in the thread, you will be able to pull the wires out thru the hole to service or troubleshoot. A 1 1/8" hole is plenty to pull wire and some 3M orange/blue wirenuts out thru.
> 
> Since it's wainscoting, the paneling can have a 1 1/8" hole drilled in it to correspond with the hole in the cover plate on the box. No spackling or drywalling to worry about. It might not be perfectly code compliant, but at least the splices are boxed and it's still accessible.


It's a better idea than just splicing and burying them in the wall.

Now mounting the fixture...
:whistling2:


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## Ocularpatdown (Apr 27, 2010)

Rudeboy said:


> It's a better idea than just splicing and burying them in the wall.
> 
> Now mounting the fixture...
> :whistling2:


The fixture could be fastened to the wainscoting and the drywall behind it via toggle bolts or even simple plastic anchors, just like most vanity bars in bathrooms.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

Ocularpatdown said:


> The fixture could be fastened to the wainscoting and the drywall behind it via toggle bolts or even simple plastic anchors, just like most vanity bars in bathrooms.


Okay, I guess Mags has his solution then.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Rudeboy said:


> You feed the fixture first.
> 
> I don't know what the cu. inch is on those boxes but practically speaking, you wouldn't feel good about splicing within one.



So what magical method do you use between the fixture and the door jamb box?


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

480sparky said:


> So what magical method do you use between the fixture and the door jamb box?


I use this stuff I found at home depot called romex. It's very magical.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Rudeboy said:


> I use this stuff I found at home depot called romex. It's very magical.



And how do you magically connect it to the leads of the door switch?


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## Ocularpatdown (Apr 27, 2010)

Hey you two, let's see how far you can drag this out without just asking the simple question straight forward :thumbsup:


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

480sparky said:


> And how do you magically connect it to the leads of the door switch?


Really?
.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Rudeboy said:


> Really?
> .


Really......... Without splicing them.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Really......... Without splicing them.


We were talking about something else and i'm sure you already know this but when I said "splice" I meant splicing wires coming into the box, not the device's leads. 

Besides, when I use door jamb switches I use ittsy bittsy wire nuts. Really really small. Puny, slim, olive sized, miniature, slender.

I mean tiny, very under sized. The opposite of large. Pinner. Miniscule.
You know, the ones nobody can see.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Rudeboy said:


> We were talking about something else and i'm sure you already know this but when I said "splice" I meant splicing wires coming into the box, not the device's leads.
> 
> Besides, when I use door jamb switches I use ittsy bittsy wire nuts. Really really small. Puny, slim, olive sized, miniature, slender.
> 
> ...


Gotcha. Splicing itsy bitsy teeny weeny wires is not the same as splicing big honkin' #14 wire.:whistling2:


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Gotcha. Splicing itsy bitsy teeny weeny wires is not the same as splicing big honkin' #14 wire.:whistling2:


 You have to have arms like petra D to splice wires anywhere near #14. For god's sake man what _are_ you thinking?
You want me to pull a muscle?


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## user438 (Jun 6, 2007)

The whole thing is proposterous. Rudeboy says you can't splice in a door jam box so that is it, code reference ? none, his JW told him 15 years ago that he couldn't.

That one door jam box I posted is 1 of a hundred different types, that model that I posted comes with a switch that has factory 6" leads that will have to be spliced no matter what.

I like the idea of the 1" hole in wainscoating but the problem is you have wood in between the box and fixture, if you go that route why even use a box at all ? Tell me what purpose the box is serving if you do that ? You won't find this in a code book, it is article 359.3.4 in the common sense code 2010, 220/221 distributors inc. Pheonix AZ

I am pretty sure if a box is designed to have recessed door switch and accomodate the lead splices it can handle 2 yellow wire nuts and some fixture wire without a problem.

Fixture wires don't count and you no longer have a device, so I figure 6.0 Cu In in that box for wires . But hey lets just use a 20 CU In box but buried behind some wood with a 1 " hole cause the "Code says we need the right cu in capacity" Last time I checked the "code didn't allow combustible materials in a box" what is more important to you ? Box fill or having 1/4" dryed out wainscaoating between fixture and box ?


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## user438 (Jun 6, 2007)

480sparky said:


> Gotcha. Splicing itsy bitsy teeny weeny wires is not the same as splicing big honkin' #14 wire.:whistling2:


 
480, how in the hell do you have over 11,000 posts in 2 years ? that is just crazy


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## greengoat (Sep 6, 2008)

Put a plug on it and hang from a clock outlet.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

Rich R said:


> none, his JW told him 15 years ago that he couldn't.
> 
> 
> I am pretty sure if a box is designed to have recessed door switch and accomodate the lead splices it can handle 2 yellow wire nuts and some fixture wire without a problem.


You're assuming that there is no other splicing to be done besides the fixture.
I have only done electrical work for ten years.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

I like the back plate idea. It'll look good, be legal, and made safe. Now I have to present the idea to the HO and sell him on it. HO's normally REALLY like the word safe, especially in a house built in 1850. 

Can you guys help decide which backplate might be the better of the two? 

Nice link, Bob. :thumbsup:

#1 










#2


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

I forgot to mention that for now all I have is a 12/2 NM sticking out of a 1 1/4" hole and no box. Some wainscoting is going to cover all the hole except the diameter of the cable and that's what I'll have to work with when I go back. With the backplate idea I can easily install a 3" pancake box. I'm lucky because I have the depth of the wainscoting, then 1/2" sheetrock, then 3/4" tongue and groove walls original with the house, and finally a few thousand pieces of blown-in insulation. You gotta love it!


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Before..










Here's an after shot of the light fixture...


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Cool looks good. How much hacking was needed to pull it off?


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

Magnettica said:


> I have this sconce to wire and hang. Right now all I have is a new piece of romex hanging out of the wall. The customer is having wainscoting installed high and where the fixture will be mounted. I would like some installation ideas, mainly attaching it to the wall without having to see the box. Not sure what the hell I'm gonna do here but I'm gonna try to do something good.




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~Matt


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Jlarson said:


> Cool looks good. How much hacking was needed to pull it off?


No hacking at all. The back plate was a bit of a challenge. The hole in the back plate is small so I had to connect to supply, tuck away a couple of wire nuts inside the box, then attach the fixture to the back plate. This was a 2-man job 


Is there a way i could attach a little pullchain to each bulb holder?


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

TOOL_5150 said:


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Is this like a 15-yard penalty or something? I deleted some photos from a Mac server and it looks like these are 2 of about 500 "missing" from the internet.

Here's one of the two missing from the OP.


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