# #4 stranded won't fit.



## JohnJ0906

Now, why the lug RIGHT above this couldn't be used, I don't know.  I guess someone couldn't be bothered getting their allen keys.




















Busbar screw was cross-threaded, and the "add-a-lug" wasn't even close to being tight to the bar.


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## Speedy Petey

You know what's funny? #4 WILL fit in that bar. :laughing:


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## JohnJ0906

I added 2 #4s, and had a HELL of a time making them fit. It will take 4 solid no problem, but 4 stranded is a bear.


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## curranelectric

I have used Breaker Box Neutral Lug. They go from #4 through 0 wire size
They come with the Square D Panels and you can get extra one at Homedepot


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## MDShunk

curranelectric said:


> I have used Breaker Box Neutral Lug. They go from #4 through 0 wire size
> They come with the Square D Panels and you can get extra one at Homedepot


The one pictured is a QO70AN, and has a 70 amp limit. I see this used sometimes noncompliantly. The QO100AN bolts right on top of the bar (doesn't have the two fingers) and is rated at 100 amps.


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## JohnJ0906

Seimens panel. :whistling2: 

However, the point is well taken.


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## frank

Often wonder when checking out your USA stuff why you folks don't sleeve your earth (ground) wires. It is great way to ensure some insulation around the bare conductor to help against accidental contact with hot (live) parts.
Looks pretty neat too


Frank


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## joebell

John, 
What is the wire below the lug ( in the top photo) is that how seimens is tieing the neutral bars together? It used to be a bar bolted at the bottom.


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## MDShunk

frank said:


> Often wonder when checking out your USA stuff why you folks don't sleeve your earth (ground) wires.


I bet it would look cool, but it's kinda pointless when the panel is metal too.


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## JohnJ0906

joebell said:


> John,
> What is the wire below the lug ( in the top photo) is that how seimens is tieing the neutral bars together? It used to be a bar bolted at the bottom.


Yes. It is factory installed.


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## Andy in ATL

frank said:


> Often wonder when checking out your USA stuff why you folks don't sleeve your earth (ground) wires. It is great way to ensure some insulation around the bare conductor to help against accidental contact with hot (live) parts.
> Looks pretty neat too
> 
> 
> Frank


In commercial the ground wire is generally insulated. In most parts of the USA(not all, Chicago, Ill being one example) we are allowed to use non-metallic sheathed cable, commonly called "romex" in residences. The ground is never insulated in the cable assembly. That being said, I agree. It can be sketchy adding circuits in homes.


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## sguinn

Where's the noalox?


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## walkerj

Yes, that is the neutral bar. We use siemens exclusively for panels. I NEVER put neutrals on that side.


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## Celtic

sguinn said:


> Where's the noalox?


Where is the requirement to use Noalox?


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## Speedy Petey

walkerj said:


> I NEVER put neutrals on that side.


May I ask why?


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## duckhunter

Are they trying to get 3 circuits out that 12-4 in that single phase panel??


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## JohnJ0906

duckhunter said:


> Are they trying to get 3 circuits out that 12-4 in that single phase panel??


Actually, that's 14-2-2. black, white, red, white/red stripe. 2 AFCI circuits.


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## duckhunter

I call it 12-4 because it's easier to say that than 12-2-2, I'll be more specific in any future posts. Reason I ask, is I just went on a service call the other day where some idiot ran all their home runs into the attic with it and branched off from them. Needless to say most of the neutrals were burned up from doubling up the same phase on them.


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## Matt

looks to me like the electrician that installed that panel forgot the bonding screw right beside the lug not used at the top of the neutral buss.


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## Thomp

That installation has one word written all over it- "jake-legged"


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## wwilson174

*Chicago code requirements.*



Andy in ATL said:


> In commercial the ground wire is generally insulated. In most parts of the USA(not all, Chicago, Ill being one example) we are allowed to use non-metallic sheathed cable, commonly called "romex" in residences. The ground is never insulated in the cable assembly. That being said, I agree. It can be sketchy adding circuits in homes.


Since when is Romex legal in Chicago residences?


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## MF Dagger

wwilson174 said:


> Since when is Romex legal in Chicago residences?


Where did he say it was? That quote specifically stated that Chicago was an exception to his statement


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## Magnettica

I just buy/ use a lug designed for a Siemens panel and #4 aluminum.


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## Shelby

Is it a violation to split the # 4 stranded into 2 halves and use 2 terminals next to each other on the terminal bar to terminate the conductor? I have seen this from time to time and have done this from time to time. Why use a lug at all? unless there are no spaces available on the bar. Is this a violation?


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## Speedy Petey

It is, but I'd have to dig up the code citation for you. 
Anyone know it off hand, other than 110.3(B)?


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## HighWirey

Heck, 

Just trim off those pesky offending strands, stuff it home.

Work'in For That Free Tee . . .


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## JohnJ0906

Speedy Petey said:


> It is, but I'd have to dig up the code citation for you.
> Anyone know it off hand, other than 110.3(B)?


I think the reason I have heard, was that now you have 2 non-standard wire sizes. and the lug isn't tested for that.



Shelby said:


> Is it a violation to split the # 4 stranded into 2 halves and use 2 terminals next to each other on the terminal bar to terminate the conductor?



I honestly have a hard time seeing this _particular _instance as being a big deal.


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