# Lock out tag out



## Wireman191 (Aug 28, 2011)

As of right now I know of no criminal prosecution of cutting off a LOTO lock. Do you guys think it should be a criminal act?


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Naw, no prosecution, they should just make it legal to beat the POS with his bolt cutters.


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## Wireman191 (Aug 28, 2011)

Jlarson said:


> Naw, no prosecution, they should just make it legal to beat the POS with his bolt cutters.


 Wouldn't that be nice:jester: I know of a few cases at our local mill that someone has died because the "Big man just wanted it running"


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

loto provides a _grand _example of punishment justifying the crime 

but just who is it that likes the worker in a _d*mn'd if, d*mn'd if not_ position?

~CS~


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## Sparky J (May 17, 2011)

Wireman191 said:


> Wouldn't that be nice:jester: I know of a few cases at our local mill that someone has died because the "Big man just wanted it running"


You could feel free to beat him with the bolt cutters too then in my opinion.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

I imagine it's sort of like driving a car: You almost run someone over, and you might get cited for it, but you're not going to prison.

Same thing with cutting a lockout. It takes actual damages before a criminal charge is enforced. If someone is injured or killed because a lockout is cut, I could very well see charges of criminal negligence or manslaughter.

-John


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

What happens when a maintenance guy leaves his lock on and goes home?


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

mcclary's electrical said:


> What happens when a maintenance guy leaves his lock on and goes home?


Its his lock and he is responsible for it, call him back in. That is what is supposed to be done with a secure and properly managed LOTO system.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Wireman191 said:


> As of right now I know of no criminal prosecution of cutting off a LOTO lock. Do you guys think it should be a criminal act?


This calls for some Navy retiree to jump in. I think it is a brig offense in that sector.


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## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

mcclary's electrical said:


> What happens when a maintenance guy leaves his lock on and goes home?


 Most of the places I work have detailed procedures for just such an occasion. 
They all have to go through multiple people and a stack of paperwork to get a lock cut.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

I can see a lot of situations where it's ok to cut it off, and a lot of situations where it is never OK, so if there was going to be a sensible law in that regard, it would have to be very very specific (not gonna happen). Now, on the other hand, if adequate precautions are not taken to insure that no one is in harm's way and that no one is in any danger in order to remove a loto, then I think it should be some kind of law that it is automatically criminally negligent and have a minimum jail time and fine. 

I guess what I'm trying to say is, there are a lot of guys here in an active factory setting where noone should ever remove the lock. But, for instance, there is a lock on a navy base 2 hrs from where I'm sitting that I put on 4 years ago that has been or will be cut off, cause noone is going to pay me to go down there to take it off, and as long as the proper precautions are taken, it's not dangerous, and noone is going to the brig. Now if it were on a ship underway, different story. But even in that situation, if the ship came under attack, and the piece of equipment wasn't going to ignite a magazine, they might decide to kill one guy so that 100 guys could live. There's just too many variable. Don't ask me what the regulations are cause I'm civilian, maybe someone else knows the answer to that.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

I had to drive an hour back to work to remove a lock I forgot to pull when I left work. No pay and a warning about failure to follow the LOTO by not removing lock when leaving work.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

wildleg said:


> I can see a lot of situations where it's ok to cut it off, and a lot of situations where it is never OK, so if there was going to be a sensible law in that regard, it would have to be very very specific (not gonna happen). Now, on the other hand, if adequate precautions are not taken to insure that no one is in harm's way and that no one is in any danger in order to remove a loto, then I think it should be some kind of law that it is automatically criminally negligent and have a minimum jail time and fine.
> 
> I guess what I'm trying to say is, there are a lot of guys here in an active factory setting where noone should ever remove the lock. But, for instance, there is a lock on a navy base 2 hrs from where I'm sitting that I put on 4 years ago that has been or will be cut off, cause noone is going to pay me to go down there to take it off, and as long as the proper precautions are taken, it's not dangerous, and noone is going to the brig. Now if it were on a ship underway, different story. But even in that situation, if the ship came under attack, and the piece of equipment wasn't going to ignite a magazine, they might decide to kill one guy so that 100 guys could live. There's just too many variable. Don't ask me what the regulations are cause I'm civilian, maybe someone else knows the answer to that.


They called me at home the other week to cut a lock of mine. I had pneumonia and didn't know what was going on. But cutting the lock was a safe thing to do. 


As for cutting a lock onboard ship,, if a sailor does cut one for ammo or any other reason,, 
He had better be in the right when the dust settles. Been there & done that. 
They train the sailors to think for themselves when they are along or are in charge.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

wildleg said:


> they might decide to kill one guy so that 100 guys could live. There's just too many variable. Don't ask me what the regulations are cause I'm civilian, maybe someone else knows the answer to that.


The ships captain decides who can have a terminal exposure. That's part of the responsibility of command. The sailors understand that concept and do what needs to be done. 
Together we stand alone.


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## Lone Crapshooter (Nov 8, 2008)

Where I work because I am a equipment owners rep I do LOTOs a couple of times a week . I am a firm believer that if you are not assigned to the unit you should remove your lock when you leave the job. That is just the way it should be .
My point of contention is that if have a piece of equipment that is torn apart and parts are missing and there is no way that it can be used it does not hurt a thing if the unit people leave their locks on until the job is finished.
Also each lock that is removed puts you one step closer to disaster.
Also I think for small jobs and troubleshooting our loto procedure is way more complicated than it has to be.

LC​


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

I agree that as workers leave, lockouts get removed, but the person ultimately in control of the job keeps their lock on until it's made safe. 

If I'm the only one working on a piece of equipment, it means my lock stays on that equipment even if I leave the country, because I'm the only one in control of the job.

If my crew is working on a piece of equipment, it's still my job, and even when all their locks come off, mine stays on until it's safe.

There should never be a time where a dangerous machine is unlocked and uncontrolled.

-John


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

Wireman191 said:


> As of right now I know of no criminal prosecution of cutting off a LOTO lock. Do you guys think it should be a criminal act?




1926.417 LOCKOUT AND TAGGING CIRCUITS . This is from CCH BOOK 2010 page 193 

OSHA standards read 1926 .417 b, c ,d It is not really covered clearly by Osha read it . A tag is all you need and nothing more and according to them it doesnt state who installs or takes off the tag. Just that its inoperative . So i say its not a fine theres no law .

But if we cut a lock at work were fired at that moment !


But now read this http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_id=9804&p_table=STANDARDS



I guess its like the code book lots of other sections . you might be in trouble !

And the answer is in this section only that person who put it on takes it off per OSHA lockout and removal *1910.147(e)(3) 
*


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## FireInTheWire (Oct 30, 2011)

Hmmm... that kind of thing is a biggie to me- 

I DO think there should be L&I fines and/or prosecution if someone cuts a lock without proper reason to do so, energizes stuff and causes someone harm.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

we have too many damn laws as it is. If someone causes severe injury or death because they are negligent, they are at least liable for manslaughter (criminally negligent homicide). If they cause injury, they are at least liable for a civil lawsuit. Maybe there are circumstances (gov jobs ?) where they wouldn't be held to the fire, but I don't see the need for any new specific laws.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

go ahead, cut my lotto off

you'll be wishing for a cop......

~CS~


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

360max said:


> Its his lock and he is responsible for it, call him back in. That is what is supposed to be done with a secure and properly managed LOTO system.


Wrong, you can cut the lock off if they are gone.


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## Wireman191 (Aug 28, 2011)

BBQ said:


> Wrong, you can cut the lock off if they are gone.


 Maybe in your company, Each company is suppose to have their own policy on what to do in that situation. 
Ours they must call you before cutting the lock off.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Wireman191 said:


> Maybe in your company, Each company is suppose to have their own policy on what to do in that situation.
> Ours they must call you before cutting the lock off.


Did I say without notification? 

I posted the OSHA rules on this recently, it requires that you try to notify but still allows the removal of the lock if you can't be found.

Of course any company can go beyond the OSHA requirements.



> *1910.147(e)(3)*
> 
> Lockout or tagout devices removal. Each lockout or tagout device shall be removed from each energy isolating device by the employee who applied the device. Exception to paragraph (e)(3): When the authorized employee who applied the lockout or tagout device is not available to remove it, that device may be removed under the direction of the employer, provided that specific procedures and training for such removal have been developed, documented and incorporated into the employer's energy control program. The employer shall demonstrate that the specific procedure provides equivalent safety to the removal of the device by the authorized employee who applied it. The specific procedure shall include at least the following elements:
> 
> ...


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Wireman191 said:


> As of right now I know of no criminal prosecution of cutting off a LOTO lock. Do you guys think it should be a criminal act?


OSHA has never had the power to fine or charge employees with crimes. OSHA can only go after the employer.

So if someone is cutting locks off the company is expected to handle it or they could be fined for non-compliance.

I think having OSHA trying to directly fine / charge employees for work place safety violations would be a very bad road to start down.


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## Wireman191 (Aug 28, 2011)

BBQ said:


> OSHA has never had the power to fine or charge employees with crimes. OSHA can only go after the employer.
> 
> So if someone is cutting locks off the company is expected to handle it or they could be fined for non-compliance.
> 
> I think having OSHA trying to directly fine / charge employees for work place safety violations would be a very bad road to start down.


 I agree with that! When someone dies as a result of a lock being cut I think Big john was right, Thats when the prosecution is/and should be.
I have luckily never had it happen to me, It was just a few cases at our mill that it happened. I will look into it and see if there were any legal repercussions from those.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Wireman191 said:


> I agree with that! When someone dies as a result of a lock being cut I think Big john was right, Thats when the prosecution is/and should be.


I agree and that freaking Big John does that a lot, he makes sense and thinks sensibly.

Why he hangs here I have no idea. :laughing:


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