# Melted Receptacle



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Yes, back stabbed receptacles most likely. Those need attention before the house starts on fire.


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## Jmcstevenson (Sep 11, 2010)

Turns out the wiring is AL. Maybe I'll get to try out these alumiconns you guys swear by.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Yes.


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## kg7879 (Feb 3, 2014)

backstay said:


> Yes, back stabbed receptacles most likely. Those need attention before the house starts on fire.


I have never come across this. Do they melt like that because of the design of the device or that the current of down stream devices is flowing through it or is it due to loose a connection?


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

Jmcstevenson said:


> Was just asked to take a look this weekend at three plugs in an acquaintances bedroom that look like the picture below. Granted my service exp is commercial but I've never seen this.. burned or sooted yes, but not warped. Anyone seen this before?


Usually you'll find a space heater and a AC unit near one of those...:laughing:


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

kg7879 said:


> I have never come across this. Do they melt like that because of the design of the device or that the current of down stream devices is flowing through it or is it due to loose a connection?


This was from a heavy Duty Space heater next to a bed...










Burnt on one side!, So Why not just flip it over and use the other-side, What could go wrong?......:laughing::no:


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## Tiger (Jan 3, 2008)

Often a poor connection is involved. It arcs and sparks, gets hot and burns.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Tiger said:


> Often a poor connection is involved. It arcs and sparks, gets hot and burns.


Usually the opposite Tiger


~CS~


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

Jmcstevenson said:


> Was just asked to take a look this weekend at three plugs in an acquaintances bedroom that look like the picture below. Granted my service exp is commercial but I've never seen this.. burned or sooted yes, but not warped. Anyone seen this before?


This is proof that trim screws must always be vertical. 

Thanks for posting it..


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

if it was al wire AND backstabbed:no:


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

Ran across two this last week. 

I don't backstab because of my own experience with the failure of the connection, but both of these guys were pigtailed connections, copper wire, and side screw terminated. 

A good wiring method still needs good mechanical skills to terminate it properly.


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## Jmcstevenson (Sep 11, 2010)

Replaced the damaged receptacles on Saturday.. Picture of former installation attached. Good news.. No backstabbing!They wrapped the AL around the screws and there looked to be a large amount of what I assume is Noalox (antioxidant) gel applied to each termination point. Marrette (not AL. rated) on the hot pigtail was very loose, there was no neut pigtail.. One of the the neutrals were loose enough to pull off the plug. 

They'd had an AC unit @ 10 amps plugged in for months without problems till last week. 

Chalk it up to heat from loose connections and the gobs of Noalox preventing dissipation?


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## EC2253 (Mar 7, 2008)

Tell your friend to move.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

Jmcstevenson said:


> ...
> 
> Chalk it up to heat from loose connections and the gobs of Noalox preventing dissipation?


I don't think the anti-oxident had anything to do with it. Was the receptacle a CO/ALR device or just a CU/AL device? If it was the CU/AL, it was likely because the aluminum conductor expands way more than the terminal screws as the conductor heats up from current flow. Over time, this extrudes the conductor out from under the screw creating a high resistance connection which in turn makes ever more heat and extrudes even more conductor out from under the screw, and then you end up with what you have in the picture.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

To my mind, the old classic aluminum branch conductors ought to be de-rated after the fact. Think of them as, say, 40 degrees conductors -- not 60 degree conductors.

A #10 Al ought to be re-breakered down to 15A...

A #12 Al ought to be re-breakered down to 10A... 

It's those last amps that really cause the conductor to heat up. 

And the HO involved ought to be informed that many high powered appliances are marginal -- and that electric space heaters are taboo on aluminum circuits.

{ Way too many watts... for far too long... makes aluminum conductors creep something terrible. That's ALWAYS been the source of their fire hazard.}

[ The latest generation of aluminum feeder conductors have been re-alloyed to nix this expansion/ creep cycle. Time will tell if the new stuff has what it takes.]


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## kurwik1 (Jun 30, 2015)

I see this a lot in houses built in the 70's. AL wire. I used the new purple AL to cu ideal wire nuts for one job and have had a bunch of call backs. the wire nut melted in one. I have gone back to using the marette AL to cu wire nuts


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## electricguy (Mar 22, 2007)

They don't make a decora receptacle for alum wire, plus it would be really hard to back stab with a #12 alum conductor


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Switched said:


> A good wiring method still needs good mechanical skills to terminate it properly.



The majority of our service calls are _just that_ Switch 

Somebody sometime ago lacked the _skill_ to make a good termination


Conversely, I'm informed via our UK contingent performs a whole dwelling assessment on a 3yr? cycle 

As opposed to our methods of a good sense of smell.....

~CS~


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## Jmcstevenson (Sep 11, 2010)

kurwik1 said:


> I see this a lot in houses built in the 70's. AL wire. I used the new purple AL to cu ideal wire nuts for one job and have had a bunch of call backs. the wire nut melted in one. I have gone back to using the marette AL to cu wire nuts


Yikes. Couldn't find Alumicons so I used those purple wire nuts. Going back this weekend to fish in a switch, I'll swap them for Marette brand. I'm a little disappointed though, I generally like ideal nuts best.


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## CTshockhazard (Aug 28, 2009)

kurwik1 said:


> I see this a lot in houses built in the 70's. AL wire. I used the new purple AL to cu ideal wire nuts for one job and have had a bunch of call backs. the wire nut melted in one. I have gone back to using the marette AL to cu wire nuts


I've never had a problem with the Ideal 65 wire nuts.

Have to pay close attention to their allowances as they're fairly limited as opposed to standard wire nuts.



> 1 #10 AL sol. w/1 or 2 #10 CU sol.
> 1 #10 AL w/1 or 2 #12 CU
> 1 #10 AL w/1 or 2 #14 CU
> 1 #10 AL w/1 or 2 #16 CU
> ...


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

telsa said:


> To my mind, the old classic aluminum branch conductors ought to be de-rated after the fact. Think of them as, say, 40 degrees conductors -- not 60 degree conductors.
> 
> A #10 Al ought to be re-breakered down to 15A...
> 
> ...




You belong on the CMP :laughing::thumbsup:

Reducing current does nothing to aleviate the risk of glowing connections which are the #1 fire cause.


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## d2043 (Nov 12, 2013)

Black Dog said:


> Usually you'll find a space heater and a AC unit near one of those...:laughing:


Thats right.., usually the space heater is the worse offender.


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## JohnnyElectric (Aug 30, 2013)

The real problem is that the receptacle probably isn't rated for AL, most receptacles are not.

Then, even if your receptacle is AL rated, you absolutely need to use a torque screwdriver to make sure you don't under tighten, or over tighten the connections, as either will lead to a failure.

For pigtaiing, the purple wire nuts lost their UL rating years ago and are no longer approved for pig tailing. The only approved methods are the old Tyco COPALUM crimp connectors, with the special tool which you need to be certified on to use, or to use the Alumiconn terminal block connectors, which you need to use a torque screwdriver with. 

If you're doing anything else, you're asking for trouble.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

JohnnyElectric said:


> ...
> For pigtaiing, the purple wire nuts lost their UL rating years ago and are no longer approved for pig tailing. ....


Can you document that? Ideal 65 is still on the list of wire connectors that are UL listed. 

The are not listed for aluminum to aluminum at this time. I think that is the listing they lost. 

The are currently listed for aluminum to copper connections.


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## seelite (Aug 24, 2009)

Sadly, as a retired Master Electrician and a retired Fire Dept Officer (volunteer), I've seen this too, TOO many times. Causes were invariably:
1- cheep (not spec.grade) NON quality residential receptacles.
2- Puish-in wire, or if wrapped - wrapped counter clockwise.
3- Aluminum conductors.
4- Lost contact tension due to aging of the device.
5- Non tradesman installed, usually screw not tight.
The majority of these devices were manufactured in the 70's & 80's.
The old, OLD receptacles were pre plastic, usually Bakelite - which did occasionally crack but didn't melt.
The newer devices use plastic compounds with nylon & other ingredients that I am no longer familiar with but seem more heat-resistant.
Since my journeymen (both genders) thought that I was anal re: quality materials and quality workmanship - I did worry about my managerial style.
Got over it when I bumped into some folks that had apprenticed with me.
They remembered some inane little item that that they learned from me.
Isn't that what apprentice-ship is for? BTW my apprenticeship was 1952 to 1955 - had my first inspection in '56 - and as a Master, my jobs were almost 50-50 Commercial-Industrial and Residential. Folks, please continue to share these type of problems/occurrences on this forum as SOME of the newbies can & will learn here. Sorry if I got verbose.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

meadow said:


> You belong on the CMP :laughing::thumbsup:
> 
> Reducing current does nothing to aleviate the risk of glowing connections which are the #1 fire cause.


And here, I thought that :

P = E x I

Watts = Volts x Amps

P = R x I x I

*Watts = Ohms x Amps x Amps*

Well, you unlearn something every day. :whistling2:

{ When resistance at a connection is the issue, the amps your are trying to drive through it count: SQUARED. }

Aluminum CREEPS.

Essential to that phenomenon is the heating cooling cycle. 

Aluminum 'creep' is SO PRONOUNCED that it's common to mistake a loose terminal connection as being from under torquing during the original installation.

Whereas, even a quality installation is destined to fail with the wires and materials -- and power ratings -- that were standard practice back then.

The NEMA folks that actually manufacture aluminum wire flatly admit, now, that they screwed up, then.

They ENTIRELY missed the 'creep' factor -- which was slow enough to burn them (went unnoticed) -- yet fast enough to burn houses down. (once it was installed, commonly)

An entirely new aluminum alloy has been brought to market. (AA 8000) With panic effort, a blend was found that simply has more dimensional stability within the common range of temperatures required. It's been out for quite a while, but, once burned is to be twice shy.

http://www.southwire.com/commercial/AluminumBuildingWireHistory.htm

"Creep resistance

Aluminum alloy conductor alloy materials and annealing process reduces the conductor in the heat and pressure under the " creep " tendency, relative to pure aluminum, creep resistance can be increased by 300%, to avoid the cold flow or creep relaxation induced problems."

http://www.goldensunny.com/en/news/industry/9.html

Sorry for their terrible wording, English being their second language.


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## JohnnyElectric (Aug 30, 2013)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> Can you document that? Ideal 65 is still on the list of wire connectors that are UL listed.
> 
> The are not listed for aluminum to aluminum at this time. I think that is the listing they lost.
> 
> The are currently listed for aluminum to copper connections.


You might be right about the UL listing, but the Consumer Product Safety Commission at http://www.cpsc.gov//PageFiles/118856/516.pdf

Considers all aluminum wiring connections that haven't been remediated to be in need of repair, and the methods they approve of are complete re-wiring with copper wiring, COPALUM, or AlumiConn connectors. They used to inclue the purple twisters until failure became a common issue. 

Personally speaking, even if the Purple twisters are still UL listed, I wouldn't use them as they do not solve the problem of overtorquing, or distressing the Aluminum connectors. I've seen many of them burn and melt.

Copper, being much harder than Aluminum is very forgiving of overtightening, but Aluminum deforms, creating a point where the wire gauge is essentially reduced, which is a good part of the cause of the heat that leads to failure.

The COPALUM is made to provide a consistent pressure with every connection, and the Alumiconn connectors are used with a torque screwdriver to prevent this issue.


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## JohnnyElectric (Aug 30, 2013)

Not to beat a dead horse, but we also have the following:

http://inspectapedia.com/aluminum/Twist_On_Connecrtors_Aluminum_Wire.php
Where the CPSC specifically mentions the Ideal 65 as not being recommended for use with aluminum connections.

And here:

http://inspectapedia.com/aluminum/Ideal_65_Twister_Aluminum_Wire_Connector.php

Where they provide a list of several independent tests showing that the wire nuts do not perform to UL standards, and they also provide letters from labs to UL reccomending that they be de-listed. Though UL it seems has chosen not to do so in spite of considerable evidence.

So you're right, they're still UL listed, but at the same time it would be foolish to use them.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

telsa said:


> And here, I thought that :
> 
> P = E x I
> 
> ...



The heating of healthy connections is insignificant between 10 and 15 amps. If a connection starts to get loose it will eventually become a glowing connection. Even a low current as in an amp can cause a glowing connection. The NEC has this false belief further de-rating conservative ampacities will decrease fire.


As for aluminum they did screw up and badly. But the only thing that can be done with that is ripping it out.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

JohnnyElectric said:


> You might be right about the UL listing, but the Consumer Product Safety Commission at http://www.cpsc.gov//PageFiles/118856/516.pdf
> 
> Considers all aluminum wiring connections that haven't been remediated to be in need of repair, and the methods they approve of are complete re-wiring with copper wiring, COPALUM, or AlumiConn connectors. They used to inclue the purple twisters until failure became a common issue.
> 
> ...


When you dig a bit into the information on the CPSC webpage you will find it all came from the manufacturer of the COPALUM product....not exactly an unbiased source. The same applies to the sources you list in post #30.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> When you dig a bit into the information on the CPSC webpage you will find it all came from the manufacturer of the COPALUM product....not exactly an unbiased source. The same applies to the sources you list in post #30.


When you dig into most of Inspectapedia you'll find the sources to be biased, or at least skewed.

I used to use that information, but when you educate yourself through more than one single method, it is amazing the amount of data and facts that are skewed and built....

IMO, experience trumps all the experts. Environment can wreak more havoc than poor design/manufacturing. I've almost never had an issue with FPE. Zinsco, I look at it like tinder....

Different strokes for different folks?


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

meadow said:


> The heating of healthy connections is insignificant between 10 and 15 amps. If a connection starts to get loose it will eventually become a glowing connection. Even a low current as in an amp can cause a glowing connection. The NEC has this false belief further de-rating conservative ampacities will decrease fire.
> 
> 
> As for aluminum they did screw up and badly. But the only thing that can be done with that is ripping it out.


For my money, aluminum wiring from that era just can't be deemed 'healthy', EVER.

I fear it much more than K&T. 

It's not my end of the market. 

Should I ever even consider purchasing such a dwelling, a total rewire would be figured into my bid. They are never going to get better, and I don't regard even the latest bandaids satisfactory -- when my money is on the line. :no:


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## seelite (Aug 24, 2009)

*K & t*

I agree that AL branch ckt. wrg. is the worst innovation that this industry has seen. Worse than Lead pipe in the plumbing industry. But when this country's young people are fighting a War they need metals like brass & copper to shorten the duration. Folks at home had to make do with what
was available. Sadly, AL conductors were one of those make-do's. They had
a much higher failure rate than K & T, and here in the States most of AL has failed, so I see very little remaining. Now K & T is still encountered - AND if not f---ed up by well meaning amateurs, was a lot safer than AL. the downsides of K & T are failure of the rubber insulation due to aging, and no available ground ( which could have been provided by 3 instead of 2 conductors if the need was foreseen). No different that the original NM sheathed (Romex) which also had no grounding conductor. I've helped my dad install K & T ( yeah, I'm as old as 'Methuselah' and for you Christians out there, I pulled KP @ the Last Supper). and a few of our installations still exist & continue to function. It's a toss-up as to which is failing first,
the rubber insulation or the friction tape. But the porcelain knobs & porcelain tubes will still be functioning long after your grandkids are dead
& buried. Well, my soap box (you newbies now use a inverted Spackle pail)
needs a break & I a cuppa java so 'c u l8r, gator'.


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## davey (Aug 14, 2010)

seelite said:


> the downsides of K & T are failure of the rubber insulation due to aging, and no available ground ( which could have been provided by 3 instead of 2 conductors if the need was foreseen). No different that the original NM sheathed (Romex) which also had no grounding conductor. . .It's a toss-up as to which is failing first,
> the rubber insulation or the friction tape. But the porcelain knobs & porcelain tubes will still be functioning long after your grandkids are dead
> & buried. ..


The greaat advantage of K&T is that air is a very good insulator and porcelain is an excellent one. Loom? fine, but eventually it gets tired.

Also, all those old twist-solder-rubber tape-friction tape splices that I come across are still excellent. Might have found a single bad one in 30-plus years. Maybe they used better friction tape in NY, MD, DC, VA, where I've worked, or maybe all the wiring was just newer than what you've seen.

The old romex, when its rubber dies, doesn't have all that space for air between the two conductors, unlike the K&T. Sorta think there's at least as strong a case for derating its circuits as the K&T's.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Henry Kaiser had a home on Oahu. And some financial dealings as well. Around 1/3 of the dwellings on this island are wired with un alloyed aluminum romex installed in the late sixties to mid seventies. There have been a few fires. Same goes for the other houses wired with copper. There have been a few fires there also. The purple 65's have been sold here for at least 2-1/2 decades and the supply houses continue to sell them. That is because they work fine and all this talk of how bad they are is coming from people in the trade who actually really have no real experience in the matter, but rely on stuff they read on the internet and suddenly they are experts on the subject. If the purple 65's were as defective as the armchair experts would have you all believe, Oahu would have burned to the ground a long time back, and Wesco and the other supply houses would have been sued into oblivion and shuttered their doors. * But it ain't happened.* .


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

Not all aluminum branch circuit wiring is a problem waiting to happen. There was a short period of time, in the early 70s, were a new alloy of aluminum was used for the 15 and 20 amp conductor sizes. Where used with CO/ALR devices, this wire did not experience any more problems than a copper system. This wire was only on the market for a couple of years and there were not that many installations done using it.


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## Mshea (Jan 17, 2011)

I suppose those outlets have been thrown out but I would send one to the agency that certified them like UL just because I don't think the plastic should have distorted like that. They may also be counterfeit.

Pig tailing works fine for copper devices.


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## woodchuck2 (Sep 18, 2009)

I have seen this several times and to the point it caught fire and went out on its own. Culprit was always lose connection. What i did see for a 1st time that shocked me recently was a sooted smoke detector and the center of the base was melted. Have to look for it and post it up.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> Not all aluminum branch circuit wiring is a problem waiting to happen. There was a short period of time, in the early 70s, were a new alloy of aluminum was used for the 15 and 20 amp conductor sizes. Where used with CO/ALR devices, this wire did not experience any more problems than a copper system. This wire was only on the market for a couple of years and there were not that many installations done using it.



Any more info on this? What alloy was used? 

I thing had this been done earlier we might still be using aluminum NM today.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> Not all aluminum branch circuit wiring is a problem waiting to happen. There was a short period of time, in the early 70s, were a new alloy of aluminum was used for the 15 and 20 amp conductor sizes. Where used with CO/ALR devices, this wire did not experience any more problems than a copper system. This wire was only on the market for a couple of years and there were not that many installations done using it.


Are you referring to the copper clad (aluminum) branch wire that is referred to in the literature?


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

meadow said:


> Any more info on this? What alloy was used?
> 
> I thing had this been done earlier we might still be using aluminum NM today.


I don't know exactly what was used, but I do know that it worked well. We did a number of apartment complexes when I was an apprentice in 74 and 75. Some were with this alloy of aluminum and the CO/ALR devices. When I topped out I ran the service truck for a few years and we had no more service calls on the aluminum units as compared to the copper units. (note this was not NM...it was single conductor in EMT as NM is not permitted for over 4 units in our local code.

The wire was only on the market for a couple of years as the problems with the previous aluminum conductors made it almost impossible to market it any more.

I was kind of expecting it to come back on the market when the cost of copper went up so much, but it didn't.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> I don't know exactly what was used, but I do know that it worked well. We did a number of apartment complexes when I was an apprentice in 74 and 75. Some were with this alloy of aluminum and the CO/ALR devices. When I topped out I ran the service truck for a few years and we had no more service calls on the aluminum units as compared to the copper units. (note this was not NM...it was single conductor in EMT as NM is not permitted for over 4 units in our local code.
> 
> The wire was only on the market for a couple of years as the problems with the previous aluminum conductors made it almost impossible to market it any more.
> 
> I was kind of expecting it to come back on the market when the cost of copper went up so much, but it didn't.


 
Had manufacturers put more thought into it AL would probably be as popular as copper for small conductors. 

Who made this wire btw?


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

telsa said:


> Are you referring to the copper clad (aluminum) branch wire that is referred to in the literature?


No. It was solid aluminum and only made between 1973 and 1975 or so.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

meadow said:


> Had manufacturers put more thought into it AL would probably be as popular as copper for small conductors.
> 
> Who made this wire btw?


I think that if the product we used back then was still on the market, it would displace a lot of the copper for branch circuit wiring.

It was much too long ago for me to remember who made it.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> I think that if the product we used back then was still on the market, it would displace a lot of the copper for branch circuit wiring.
> 
> It was much too long ago for me to remember who made it.


Well, for it to make a comeback -- it'll have to do so via the massive building programs that are underway in the Second (Red China) and Third World nations. (india)

They're bigger markets than the First World, anyway.

{ For those curious, the very term "Third World" is an INDIAN political invention. New Delhi wanted to find "a third way" of political-economics -- between Americanism and Communism. (The First and Second Worlds, respectively.)

They had a huge confab in India, and crafted a "non-aligned bloc" for voting leverage within the UN General Assembly. 

This crew is still known far and wide as a bag of losers and wannabees. }

I just knew you wanted to know that. :laughing:


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

From the pic archive:


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

That, through the manufacturers spell check , goes like>>>>



*Low watt glowing connection event....

Low watt mini arc glowing connection event

Mini series arc connection event

Series arc connection event*



~CS~


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## ELECTRICK2 (Feb 21, 2015)

is it just me or does the recept look sad and or surprised?


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## davey (Aug 14, 2010)

hmmm


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

To my knowledge, there are no Decora CO/ALR receptacles on the market. Does anyone know that to be true or untrue?


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Here's some NOS aluminum NM cable if anyone needs to run any new circuits in their AL wired home. :laughing:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/500-Aluminu...ro-600V-NOS-/301605648577?hash=item463918f8c1


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