# Spot the violations, garage fire aftermath:



## guest

*More pics....*

Here is the remains of a switch with an addition most likely done by the tenant..see anything strange with this one? 










The wires from that switch led to this mess: 











Finally, look closely at the wire coming out of this box...at first I thought it was round romex (like 14/3) but it's not: 










Before I tell you what that is and the most likely cause of the fire, I'll let you guys respond and see what you come up with.


----------



## BBQ

As far as the question ............ I am not a forensic investigator and don't pretend to be one on the Internet. :whistling2:


----------



## Big John

I see them, but I'm honestly having trouble telling what the hell I'm looking at:

Were all those wires originally Romex and the sheath burned off, or were they actually individual conductors run in free air?

The last one that you initially thought was Romex looks a hell of a lot like a piece of SJ cord to me....

-John


----------



## HARRY304E

looks like 2 wire so cord in the plastic box


----------



## Englishsparky

I see them now, I would say bad workmanship..


----------



## guest

Big John said:


> I see them, but I'm honestly having trouble telling what the hell I'm looking at:
> 
> Were all those wires originally Romex and the sheath burned off, or were they actually individual conductors run in free air?
> 
> The last one that you initially thought was Romex looks a hell of a lot like a piece of SJ cord to me....
> 
> -John



John, to your first question, no and no. 

It looks like SJ cord but it's not. 

Hint: Pics 1 and 2 of first post, what you see are solid conductors....now look at the last pic of post #2 and think about it. 



Englishsparky said:


> I see them now, I would say bad workmanship..


That is a part of it, but look at the conductors closely.

OK, I have errands to run and I'll check back in later....


----------



## Big John

mxslick said:


> John, to your first question, no and no.
> 
> It looks like SJ cord but it's not.
> 
> Hint: Pics 1 and 2 of first post, what you see are solid conductors....now look at the last pic of post #2 and think about it....


 I have to try and think like the guy that wired it: If I was a total hack, what asinine thing would I have used to wire my garage? Hmm.... 

-John


----------



## Englishsparky

Big John said:


> I have to try and think like the guy that wired it: If I was a total hack, what asinine thing would I have used to wire my garage? Hmm....
> 
> -John


Not wet string :laughing:


----------



## Jlarson

Big John said:


> If I was a total hack, what asinine thing would I have used to wire my garage? Hmm....


Bare wires stapled to the wood framing. :w00t:






Oh wait that's how I wired my garage....


----------



## Bama

As screwy as it may be, stories like this make me appreciate the NEC a little bit more. Also makes me want to learn the RIGHT way to do things. Hence the reason I lurk around ET as an extension to my degree.


----------



## Big John

Jlarson said:


> Bare wires stapled to the wood framing. :w00t:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh wait that's how I wired my garage....


 Hopefully not with both wires under the same staple... :thumbsup:

If they're solid conductors, the first hack thing I think of is coaxial cable... but that ain't right. What other hack thing has solid conductors?
Not speaker cable...
Not extension cord...
Too big for bell wire...

What the hell could it be? :blink:

-John


----------



## guest

You're on the right track John.....now think of where 4-conductor, solid, jacketed wire would be used in another application..common in So. California with a certain trade....


----------



## Rudeboy

Well, I've done a bit of insurance claims before but never cared _a lot_ about the existing wiring. Yeah a lot of the time it was jacked up but you're not getting paid to rewire the whole house... just the burnt stuff.

Obviously, most HO that had a fire in their house are either a big pain in the ass and/or are trying to fix/add stuff to the house that was not part of the damage.

Seen it dozens of times.


----------



## Big John

mxslick said:


> ...Now think of where 4-conductor, solid, jacketed wire would be used in another application..common in So. California with a certain trade....


 Alright, give me another hint: What gauge am I looking at? Is it smaller than 14AWG? This isn't T-stat wire, is it...?

-John


----------



## guest

Yep, smaller than #14, looked like 20ga to me but small possibility it could be #18. I didn't take any away to compare or measure to be sure. 

Could not get access to panel to see what OCPD rating was on this, but based on the loads found after the fire I am willing to bet it wasn't 15 or 20 amps. 

Side note: On the day I was there to take the pics, both of the disconnected units had extension cords run out the mail slots to neighboring units. I feel that it is only a matter of time before someone gets the brilliant idea to backfeed the panels.


----------



## rexowner

irrigation cable?


----------



## guest

rexowner said:


> irrigation cable?



_Ding ding ding!! _We have a winner!!!:thumbup:

Never ceases to amaze me how stupid people are in regards to electricity, every time I think I've seen it all, another classic like this comes up. 

I would not be the least bit surprised if the insurance investigation turns up more of it even in the tenant units. 

Point of origin was at the receptacle in the man-cave (not the one I took pics of, the origin corner was completely destroyed) where the fridge, stereo and microwave was connected. 

The fire was made worse by the tenant opening the door to see what was going on...I talked to him briefly when I was there to take the pics.


----------



## Big John

mxslick said:


> _Ding ding ding!! _We have a winner!!!:thumbup:


 Holy crap, never in a million years would I have guessed that. :blink:

-John


----------



## rexowner

Must have been a landscaper - they always use those flying splices
in hand hole boxes. Works on a solenoid, why wouldn't it work in
a garage? Plus, since, you can get 18-12 or 20-12, you can do the
entire residence with one cable, using just one neutral. What's
not to like?


----------



## kaboler

Dude, what's irrigation cable?


----------



## rexowner

kaboler said:


> Dude, what's irrigation cable?


Used to provide low voltage to sprinkler solenoids.

http://www.southwire.com/products/IrrigationCable.htm


----------



## Split Bolt

kaboler said:


> Dude, what's irrigation cable?


It's a special cable that carries both electricity and water!:laughing:

(Actually, not a bad idea, the water could extinguish the fire!)


----------



## guest

As of today, nothing has changed. The two units are still using extension cords and the garage still stands. According to a few tenants, the landlord doesn't care and is no hurry to get it fixed. Typical.


----------



## guest

*Not surprisingly, another fire......*

This saga is far from over: Today I was on my way home and happened to glance over at the tenant units where the garage fire happened....and now one of the tenant UNITS has caught fire!! It evidently happened early today or during the day yesterday. The unit was one of the ones feeding power to the disconnected units previously (which have been reconnected.) 

The damaged garages are simply boarded up. 

The kicker: The tenant took his fire-blackened refrigerator and put it in his garage (one of the four undamaged ones from last time) and plugged it in using an extension cord....feeding from the power in the undamaged garages. Anyone want to take bets on how long before there will be another set of garages burned up? 

I am struggling with the issue of reporting the situation to the city as they continue to operate with electrical issues and the landlord evidently isn't concerned enough to make repairs properly...and the tenants aren't intelligent enough to realize how bad the situation is and they keep doing stupid things making it worse. 

The fire-damaged unit has an extension cord running to it from the neighbor's feeding who knows what. 

Simply amazing.


----------



## Big John

You really can't teach some people: Years ago I did repairs for a guy who did his own electrical work and had caused two fires in his house, one of which burned off the entire third floor. Even after that he still insisted on wiring things himself.

I only got involved when he ran into stuff he couldn't troubleshoot. Oh, and this guy was "smart" enough to be a college professor, but couldn't see a connection between the repeated electrical fires and his wiring. :blink: :no:

I'm not sure what your involvement is, but you might be hard pressed to go to the city and report the wiring unless you were specifically invited to investigate it. Maybe an anonymous call?

-John


----------



## guest

Big John said:


> You really can't teach some people: Years ago I did repairs for a guy who did his own electrical work and had caused two fires in his house, one of which burned off the entire third floor. Even after that he still insisted on wiring things himself.
> 
> I only got involved when he ran into stuff he couldn't troubleshoot. Oh, and this guy was "smart" enough to be a college professor, but couldn't see a connection between the repeated electrical fires and his wiring. :blink: :no:
> 
> I'm not sure what your involvement is, but you might be hard pressed to go to the city and report the wiring unless you were specifically invited to investigate it. Maybe an anonymous call?
> 
> -John



Sounds like the path this landlord is on for sure. I wouldn't classify him as smart in any event. 

My work at a So Calif. University has proven that professors may be book smart but frequently have little or no "street smarts." 

As for reporting it, I am in the position of "qualified spectator" in a sense..so I don't think my credibility would be sufficient....I just don't know. I think my first call will be to my friend who is an AHJ with the city (he's transferred to Public Works now) and see what his take is. 

I am just glad I don't live on or next to that property.


----------



## doubleoh7

Big John said:


> You really can't teach some people: Years ago I did repairs for a guy who did his own electrical work and had caused two fires in his house, one of which burned off the entire third floor. Even after that he still insisted on wiring things himself.
> 
> I only got involved when he ran into stuff he couldn't troubleshoot. Oh, and this guy was "smart" enough to be a college professor, but couldn't see a connection between the repeated electrical fires and his wiring. :blink: :no:
> 
> I'm not sure what your involvement is, but you might be hard pressed to go to the city and report the wiring unless you were specifically invited to investigate it. Maybe an anonymous call?
> 
> -John


 

My experience with "educated" people is that they think that they paid their dues by spending years in books. Therefore, they feel exempt from actually having to think. Also, how can an electrician be "more intelligent" than they are, so they do not have to follow his advice.


----------



## guest

After a talk with my AHJ friend he decided to report it to his office for action. He said that if the fire damage is visible on a drive-by (which it is) then they have the right to stop and investigate which is what they will do. 

I see some red tags in someone's future.


----------



## doubleoh7

My guess is that someone extended a two wire branch circuit with 12-2 and did not run an EGC back to the panel.:laughing:


----------



## guest

doubleoh7 said:


> My guess is that someone extended a two wire branch circuit with 12-2 and did not run an EGC back to the panel.:laughing:


Or they used more of that fancy irrigation cable to save a few bucks. :laughing:


----------



## doubleoh7

mxslick said:


> Or they used more of that fancy irrigation cable to save a few bucks. :laughing:


 
It was sarcasm realtion to this thead.

http://www.electriciantalk.com/f5/extending-two-wire-branch-circuits-22132/


----------



## guest

doubleoh7 said:


> It was sarcasm realtion to this thead.
> 
> http://www.electriciantalk.com/f5/extending-two-wire-branch-circuits-22132/



Ah, ha, Gotcha. Good one!!:thumbup::laughing:


----------



## Englishsparky

There certainly is plenty of stupid people out there and when they get a cunning plan like baldric in blackadder it can be lethal....


----------



## oldtimer

mxslick said:


> Here is the remains of a switch with an addition most likely done by the tenant..see anything strange with this one?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The wires from that switch led to this mess:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Finally, look closely at the wire coming out of this box...at first I thought it was round romex (like 14/3) but it's not:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Before I tell you what that is and the most likely cause of the fire, I'll let you guys respond and see what you come up with.


 In pictures #2 and #5..... What is that picture stuck in the wall. 

Is it a picture of ... The Patron Saint of Fire Traps?:whistling2::laughing:


----------



## guest

oldtimer said:


> In pictures #2 and #5..... What is that picture stuck in the wall.
> 
> Is it a picture of ... The Patron Saint of Fire Traps?:whistling2::laughing:


If I am understanding you right, what you're seeing is the remains of a flat screen tv.


----------



## oldtimer

oldtimer said:


> In pictures #2 and #5..... What is that picture stuck in the wall.
> 
> Is it a picture of ... The Patron Saint of Fire Traps?:whistling2::laughing:


 No, look halfway down the wall, there is a picture or a postcard slid into the wall.:laughing:

It is on the right side, laying on the burnt crossmember.


----------



## guest

Ahh, gotcha. Here's an enhanced version of the pic, now that I see what you saw.. 










That looks like a family pic...


----------



## slowforthecones

Let take a guess... hispanic tenants that work in some type of day labor or bottom feeding labor trade and the property owners are of the same kind. So the end result is property improvements "hack" style.. who knows the landlord or tenant might be a landscaper.


----------



## guest

Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner! slowforthecones, you got it on the nose!

It is unfortunate that in most cases of hack work or situations like this one, in my location/state, there is a certain commonality based on ethnic boundaries. 

The worst part is that even though most owners have the financial resources to do things correctly, they refuse to do so for whatever reason. 

As of today, both the garages and unit sit untouched. The management company that runs my building has told me that fire damage repairs on their units always start immediately (after clearance from the fire dept. investigators) and that in the case of the garages, they would have had them torn down immediately to mitigate the hazard of the damaged structure.


----------



## vickieB

Tell him u want a discount on your rent so you can save money when your place and all your stuff burn! Good that u have a friend. I would still report to whoever you live there and think it is unsafe. Some building inspector should be able to make appt. for that. Hopefully b4 another fire. You have the right, I would use it!:thumbup:


----------



## guest

vickieB said:


> Tell him u want a discount on your rent so you can save money when your place and all your stuff burn! Good that u have a friend. I would still report to whoever you live there and think it is unsafe. Some building inspector should be able to make appt. for that. Hopefully b4 another fire. You have the right, I would use it!:thumbup:


vickieB, thank you for your post and you are 100% correct, the tenants of ALL affected units are entitled to at least a reduction in their rent, in proportion to the lost square footage and use of the garages (and in the case of the burned-out unit, total loss of use.) 

But, FYI, I do not live at or have any direct interest in the affected units. :no: (That is why I was unsure if I should/could say anything to the city building dept.)

My quote below was an example of how things would gave been handled if my building was the one involved. 




mxslick said:


> <snip>
> *The management company that runs my building has told me that fire damage repairs on their units always start immediately (after clearance from the fire dept. investigators) and that in the case of the garages, they would have had them torn down immediately to mitigate the hazard of the damaged structure.*


I apologize for any confusion you or anyone else may have gotten from that post.


----------



## user4818

It appears there was a fire there. :jester:


----------



## guest

Peter D said:


> It appears there was a fire there. :jester:


Ya think? :jester:

Thank you Captain Obvious. :laughing:

And welcome back to the nuthouse!!:thumbup: (You are a legend here you know..)


----------



## ce2two

Landscapers are some of the smartest people in the ****** class?:wallbash::lol:24V ANTISIPHON INSTALLERS?:laughing:


----------



## guest

Latest update: I drove by today and there is finally new framing going up for the garages. I did not check in to see who (or how) the electrical work was being done by.


----------



## user4818

mxslick said:


> Latest update: I drove by today and there is finally new framing going up for the garages. I did not check in to see who (or how) the electrical work was being done by.


Hopefully not being done by someone that was picked up at a Home Depot parking lot.


----------



## guest

Peter D said:


> Hopefully not being done by someone that was picked up at a Home Depot parking lot.


Hell I would be surprised if they _*didn't*_ pick up the framers from the HD lot!!


----------



## slowforthecones

mxslick said:


> Hell I would be surprised if they _*didn't*_ pick up the framers from the HD lot!!


I won't put any money on it but I can tell you who's rebuilding place....what seeks work at the HD lot and is illegal? A-M-I-G-O :laughing::laughing:


----------



## CDN EC

Man, that place should be shut down and inspected before someone loses a kid or two.


----------



## guest

CDN mini-EC said:


> Man, that place should be shut down and inspected before someone loses a kid or two.


I agree..as I mentioned I did report the situation to the code enforcement in our city, but confidentiality requirements means I will never know what, if anything, was done. 

The burned-out tenant unit has also been "repaired" as of this week. 

Still, I would not live in any of them with the history I've seen.


----------



## Sparkyprentice

> the famous blue box used by hacks everywhere..


I guess I don't get that part. It looks like one of the adjustable depth Carlon's. I use the same thing where tile will likely be the finished surface. First, because all to often the home buyer hasn't decided by the time I'm doing the rough-in. Second, because no matter how much I coordinate with the tile guys, they (or the 'rockers) will bury at least one or load all of them up with grout/mud/whatever. 

By using an adjustable box, I can just crank it all the way out during rough-in and dial it back in to flush during trim. Doesn't get buried and doesn't get loaded up with crap. Saves a lot of time (money) and frustration.


----------



## MTW

Typical Mxslick drama. :laughing:


----------



## kenstarr

We pulled out some bell wire/extension cord combo wiring in a house a month ago. Wishing I had taken a picture of it. We did some time checking things out but ultimately walked away from the job.


----------



## MTW

You should have been arrested for trespassing. :yes:


----------



## ponyboy

MTW said:


> You should have been arrested for trespassing. :yes:


Bored?


----------



## guest

ponyboy said:


> Bored?


He must have been, to revive a year-old thread. :laughing:


----------



## tesco

mxslick said:


> He must have been, to revive a year-old thread. :laughing:


You just posted a link to it in another thread.


----------



## That_Dude

mxslick said:


> He must have been, to revive a year-old thread. :laughing:


Not once, but twice. :no::whistling2:


----------



## Chrisibew440

BBQ said:


> As far as the question ............ I am not a forensic investigator and don't pretend to be one on the Internet. :whistling2:


God! your an original rain cloud aren't you!?!?


----------



## LGLS

All the more reason to install arc-fault main breakers.


----------



## Shockdoc

IslandGuy said:


> All the more reason to install arc-fault main breakers.


This was the dumbest comment yet, afci protection wouldn't have prevented a fire.


----------



## FrunkSlammer

Shockdoc said:


> This was the dumbest comment yet


You kidding me? MTW's replies already won the Dumbest Comment Award in this thread, 3 years in a row.


----------

