# Subpanel with no ground bus



## telsa (May 22, 2015)

It's past its design life, that's for sure.

The technique used that you've described would indicate that the building is older than 1973.

How sure are you on that date ?


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

It makes no sense to install a ground bar if the panel is fed with a neutral & no ground unless the neutral bar is full. Also, if this subpanel has no ground wire in the feed, the neutral bar needs to be bonded to the panel and the lone ckt ground moved to the neutral bar.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

The build date of that house has to be older than 1973. 1960s houses had proper grounding.


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

The conductors in the AC cable, are they rubber & cloth insulated?


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

MechanicalDVR said:


> The build date of that house has to be older than 1973. 1960s houses had proper grounding.


1953 would seem closer to the mark. :001_unsure:


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

telsa said:


> 1953 would seem closer to the mark. :001_unsure:


Very much so.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

Without knowing how the subpanel is fed, it's hard to answer. If the panel feed is in EMT or rigid conduit, grounding to the panel can is fine as long as a good connection exists.

If the feed is in metal flex or NM cable, it's a handy man install.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

RePhase277 said:


> Without knowing how the subpanel is fed, it's hard to answer. If the panel feed is in EMT or rigid conduit, grounding to the panel can is fine as long as a good connection exists.
> 
> If the feed is in metal flex or NM cable, it's a handy man install.


Per the OP:

*"...ONE Romex circuit - the only one I saw in the house - is fed from this sub panel..."*

This install pre-dated the Romex era, I'd say. 

One branch circuit, only, was added years after the build.


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## NJMike (Dec 11, 2016)

Feed is metal flex / BX type cable. Conductors inside the cables are plastic insulation on copper. The only bonding connection to this subpanel from the main is the BX metal sheathing as far as I can tell. The various branch circuits on the sub all show decent ground connections. And yes, the 1973 build date is verified and there is even a 1973 township inspection sticker on the main panel. 

But, it can be seen that the BX cables are NOT the modern kind with separate grounding conductors, there's nothing but the sheathing. 

That one romex circuit was clearly added at some later date. 

Did somebody maybe build this place in 1973 using old leftovers? 

If in this case the ground from that one romex circuit is *supposed* to be connected to the sub panel neutral bus, well that's enough for me to have them get an electrician.


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## active1 (Dec 29, 2009)

What your describing may be Armored Cable or AC cable.

AC was invented in 1899. 
AC was first in the NEC in 1903. 
Until 1959 AC did not have a bonding strip. In the '50's we started seeing the strips as small as 20 AWG and by 1959 required to be no smaller than a #16.
The old steel AC cable was much stronger, not like what's seen in armored cables today. Needed to use a hack saw to cut. 
Until an electrician came out with a safer method of cutting, the roto zip.
Some think the roto zip was to protect the wires.
No, it was to protect your fingers from saw cuts.

320.108 AC EGC The cable itself shall provide adequate ground path.

If it was AC cable for the panel feeder and branch circuits you wouldn't need a ground bar. Many areas amended their code to exclude AC cable over the years. Still it would have been most likely a complaint install.

Unless local amendments don't permit there are several wiring methods that don't require an EG wire such as EMT, RMC, IMC, FMC, AC, ... If you don't have any EG to land in a panel than you can get away without a ground bar. Personally I think everything should have provisions to land EG's. So the next hack may get it right.

A screw in the back of the panel is fine for an EG as long as it's a clean metal spot (no paint) and it's a machine screw with at least 2 threads engaged or screw/bolt & nut. No it doesn't need to be green.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

NJMike, yes, that is fine to ground the romex. If it were me, I would normally install a little ground lug:









As for the BX, that's just the way it is. The metal sheath can only be considered an EGC if it has that thin little bonding strip running thru it. But here in NJ every house you walk into will have the old BX with 3-prong receptacles.


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## NJMike (Dec 11, 2016)

Thanks much guys! That all makes sense then. AC cable it is. I should have mentioned, it looked like all or most of the cables did have one of those very thin bond strips. Some of the cable runs are just visible through a gap in the drywall. 

So then: connecting that one ground to the case is correct, or at least more correct than hitting the neutral bus bar, maybe an appropriate recommendation for improvement is to have a regular ground bar installed, in case circuits are added later.

Thanks!


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

NJMike said:


> Thanks much guys! That all makes sense then. AC cable it is. I should have mentioned, it looked like all or most of the cables did have one of those very thin bond strips. Some of the cable runs are just visible through a gap in the drywall.
> 
> So then: connecting that one ground to the case is correct, or at least more correct than hitting the neutral bus bar, maybe an appropriate recommendation for improvement is to have a regular ground bar installed, in case circuits are added later.
> 
> Thanks!


Yes, if it has that bonding strip then everything is grounded to code. 

You can install a ground bar in the sub panel if you want to.


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## Stickshaker (Jun 29, 2012)

Bird dog said:


> It makes no sense to install a ground bar if the panel is fed with a neutral & no ground unless the neutral bar is full. Also, if this subpanel has no ground wire in the feed, the neutral bar needs to be bonded to the panel and the lone ckt ground moved to the neutral bar.


I respectfully disagree. Never bond the neutral and ground at a subpanel.


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

Stickshaker said:


> I respectfully disagree. Never bond the neutral and ground at a subpanel.


I was referring to a subpanel that was fed with SER cable with two hots, a neutral and no ground. In that case you would bond the neutral bar to the can.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

Bird dog said:


> I was referring to a subpanel that was fed with SER cable with two hots, a neutral and no ground. In that case you would bond the neutral bar to the can.


If it's 2 hots a neutral and no ground , that sounds like SEU.
Is the neutral bare with no white insualtion? If so , I'd redo
the whole sub panel..refeed with SER (3 wire w/ ground) add
2 ground rods , a seperate grounding bar and seperate the 
neutral bus from the grounding bar and can.

Here , regardless of how old the original applications is , once
you touch it , your liability kicks in and if I were you I would not
f*** around with improper grounding/bonding.

Just sayin.


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## bloodhound (Aug 6, 2021)

Stickshaker said:


> I respectfully disagree. Never bond the neutral and ground at a subpanel.


I agree with Stickshaker. I am a Master Electrician. State of Ohio lic# 49289.Never bond the neutral and ground in a subpanel. You create a parallel path and you will get zapped for sure. By code you are supposed to bond the neutral and the ground at the first point where the circuit is switched. Generally that is at your main panel. But sometimes it is at the meter base. If it is switched at the meter base. if you are professionally installing it this is what the code requires and this is how its done. there's really nothing more to discuss. I generally don't comment on these threads. I enjoy reading multiple opinions of so-called electricians. Some of you guys are right. But many of you are wrong. Refer to the codebook if you have any questions. Stop referring to your buddy that is an electrician. Just because you can hook up a three way switch doesn't necessarily mean you're an electrician! Get some training and get that lic.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Bird dog said:


> It makes no sense to install a ground bar if the panel is fed with a neutral & no ground unless the neutral bar is full. Also, if this subpanel has no ground wire in the feed, the neutral bar needs to be bonded to the panel and the lone ckt ground moved to the neutral bar.


no way. Don’t give bad advise please



Stickshaker said:


> I respectfully disagree. Never bond the neutral and ground at a subpanel.


yes sir you are correct




Bird dog said:


> I was referring to a subpanel that was fed with SER cable with two hots, a neutral and no ground. In that case you would bond the neutral bar to the can.


two hits, a neutral, and no ground is NOT SER



bloodhound said:


> I agree with Stickshaker. I am a Master Electrician. State of Ohio lic# 49289.Never bond the neutral and ground in a subpanel. You create a parallel path and you will get zapped for sure. By code you are supposed to bond the neutral and the ground at the first point where the circuit is switched. Generally that is at your main panel. But sometimes it is at the meter base. If it is switched at the meter base. if you are professionally installing it this is what the code requires and this is how its done. there's really nothing more to discuss. I generally don't comment on these threads. I enjoy reading multiple opinions of so-called electricians. Some of you guys are right. But many of you are wrong. Refer to the codebook if you have any questions. Stop referring to your buddy that is an electrician. Just because you can hook up a three way switch doesn't necessarily mean you're an electrician! Get some training and get that lic.


Correct, thank you


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## bring it on (Aug 18, 2021)

I hear you loud and clear. I know what the bonding screw is for. But if there is no ground wire to the sub panel there is no parallel path back to the bonding connection. I just ran across this today and the customer has a 60 amp 3 wire sub panel to a garage with no ground, but has a ground rod and a 6 solid and no bonding screw. I didn't like it at all but hate to leave the panel like it is until proper grounding can be completed. I believe it would be safer to temporarily install the bonding screw until the owner digs a new trench 50 feet back to the service. I'm not saying I would do this because of the liabilities. I was thinking of installing a 60 amp GFCI breaker to feed the sub panel temporarily. Any insight is appreciated.
Thanks


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

bring it on said:


> I hear you loud and clear. I know what the bonding screw is for. But if there is no ground wire to the sub panel there is no parallel path back to the bonding connection. I just ran across this today and the customer has a 60 amp 3 wire sub panel to a garage with no ground, but has a ground rod and a 6 solid and no bonding screw. I didn't like it at all but hate to leave the panel like it is until proper grounding can be completed. I believe it would be safer to temporarily install the bonding screw until the owner digs a new trench 50 feet back to the service. I'm not saying I would do this because of the liabilities. I was thinking of installing a 60 amp GFCI breaker to feed the sub panel temporarily. Any insight is appreciated.
> Thanks


If there is no separate grounding conductor back to the service then it is not up to code. There has never been a code cycle since the history of code cycles that allowed the bonding of the grounded conductor to the grounding conductor in a sub panel, attached. Period.


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## bloodhound (Aug 6, 2021)

bring it on said:


> I hear you loud and clear. I know what the bonding screw is for. But if there is no ground wire to the sub panel there is no parallel path back to the bonding connection. I just ran across this today and the customer has a 60 amp 3 wire sub panel to a garage with no ground, but has a ground rod and a 6 solid and no bonding screw. I didn't like it at all but hate to leave the panel like it is until proper grounding can be completed. I believe it would be safer to temporarily install the bonding screw until the owner digs a new trench 50 feet back to the service. I'm not saying I would do this because of the liabilities. I was thinking of installing a 60 amp GFCI breaker to feed the sub panel temporarily. Any insight is appreciated.
> Thanks


just run the number six to a ground lug in your sub panel. Connect it to a min 8 ft ground rod. no screw. Keep your neutral and your ground separated. that's what I would do. also if you have 25 ohms or less put in two ground rods. Minimum 6 feet apart. Better safe than sorry.


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## bloodhound (Aug 6, 2021)

bloodhound said:


> just run the number six to a ground lug in your sub panel. Connect it to a min 8 ft ground rod. no screw. Keep your neutral and your ground separated. that's what I would do. also if you have 25 ohms or less put in two ground rods. Minimum 6 feet apart. Better safe than sorry.


ungrounded conductor= Hot
grounded conductor=Neutral
grounding conductor=Ground.
if you ever take your master electrician test they don't speak hot,neutral or ground.
They speak ungrounded, grounded, and grounding conductors! talk about confusing? wtf?


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

bloodhound said:


> just run the number six to a ground lug in your sub panel. Connect it to a min 8 ft ground rod. no screw. Keep your neutral and your ground separated. that's what I would do. also if you have 25 ohms or less put in two ground rods. Minimum 6 feet apart. Better safe than sorry.


So you’re going to use the earth to trip a breaker for all the circuits in that sub panel? Come on man. Crunch some numbers. Attach a hot wire to a ground rod that is 20 ohms to earth and turn the breaker on. Is that gonna trip? You have an ungrounded to grounded fault and the breaker is not gonna work as designed. What about 15 ohms? Kinda hard around here to get that with two rods. Is that good enough to trip the breaker? Use ohms law and you will see that your recommendation is not only dangerous, but down right useless


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

McClary’s Electrical said:


> If there is no separate grounding conductor back to the service then it is not up to code. There has never been a code cycle since the history of code cycles that allowed the bonding of the grounded conductor to the grounding conductor in a sub panel, attached or detached. Period.


It was legal, until 2008, to run a 3 wire circuit to a detached building and bond the neutral to the can but you are right is you have an equipment grounding conductor then you must separate them.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> It was legal, until 2008, to run a 3 wire circuit to a detached building and bond the neutral to the can but you are right is you have an equipment grounding conductor then you must separate them.


Yes I agree but he specifically recommended removing the bond screw with a 3 wire feed which IMO is bad advise.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

bloodhound said:


> just run the number six to a ground lug in your sub panel. Connect it to a min 8 ft ground rod. no screw. Keep your neutral and your ground separated. that's what I would do. also if you have 25 ohms or less put in two ground rods. Minimum 6 feet apart. Better safe than sorry.



If you have 25 ohms or less, almost impossible in most parts of the country, then you only need one rod.

I am confused, is this a sub panel in a detached building? If so then as stated before it was legal to run a 3 wire circuit and the grounding electrode conductor was to be connected to the neutral which was also bonded to the can. Since 2008 NEC we had to run a 4 wire cable and separate the neutral and the equipment grounding conductor. The grounding electrode conductor got connected to the grounds and neutral was isolated.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

McClary’s Electrical said:


> Yes I agree but he specifically recommended removing the bond screw with a 3 wire feed which IMO is bad advise.


I agree the bond screw needs to stay.


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## bloodhound (Aug 6, 2021)

McClary’s Electrical said:


> So you’re going to use the earth to trip a breaker for all the circuits in that sub panel? Come on man. Crunch some numbers. Attach a hot wire to a ground rod that is 20 ohms to earth and turn the breaker on. Is that gonna trip? You have an ungrounded to grounded fault and the breaker is not gonna work as designed. What about 15 ohms? Kinda hard around here to get that with two rods. Is that good enough to trip the breaker? Use ohms law and you will see that your recommendation is not only dangerous, but down right useless


Code book requires that anything 25 ohms or less requires (2) 8' min length ground rod. I don't make the rules I just follow them. Don't forget the 6 feet apart minimum ground rod distance. if you want to bond your sub panel with your green screw to your neutral be my guest. The code book requires you to do your bonding and grounding at the first part of your switch whether it's at your meter or your main breaker panel. That's it. No more bonding anywhere in the circuit. When you use the green screw you are bonding your neutral and your ground. Guys this is not a difficult subject matter.Don't make me start pulling out code numbers. That will be the next step. And if you don't understand the code book I can't help you.


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## bloodhound (Aug 6, 2021)

bloodhound said:


> Code book requires that anything 25 ohms or less requires (2) 8' min length ground rod. I don't make the rules I just follow them. Don't forget the 6 feet apart minimum ground rod distance. if you want to bond your sub panel with your green screw to your neutral be my guest. The code book requires you to do your bonding and grounding at the first part of your switch whether it's at your meter or your main breaker panel. That's it. No more bonding anywhere in the circuit. When you use the green screw you are bonding your neutral and your ground. Guys this is not a difficult subject matter.Don't make me start pulling out code numbers. That will be the next step. And if you don't understand the code book I can't help you.


telling people that I'm giving bad advice and saying that my suggestion is dangerous is ridiculous. You telling this guy to bond his neutral and ground is subpanel is the only thing that's dangerous and bad advice. What I'm suggesting is the way that you do it. By the way what's your license number. You are absolutely ridiculous and obviously you don't know what you're talking about. there are people on here that need genuine help and for you to say what you're saying is ridiculous. Three wire sub panel. run your bare copper wire to two separate ground rods. Keep your neutrals separate by not using your green screw. Put a groundhog in your sub panel. That's how it's done. End of discussion. You can twist and turn it however you want to make it seem like you know what you're talking about and you can make people feel better by whatever suggestions they might have That you agree with to make them feel better. I don't care about people's feelings I do what's right as a professional electrician. Go ahead and run your green screw in your sub panel. I could care less. I would never tell someone to do thatThat you agree with to make them feel better. I don't care about people's feelings I do what's right as a professional electrician. Go ahead and run your green screw in your sub panel. I could care less. not my advice!


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## bloodhound (Aug 6, 2021)

bloodhound said:


> telling people that I'm giving bad advice and saying that my suggestion is dangerous is ridiculous. You telling this guy to bond his neutral and ground is subpanel is the only thing that's dangerous and bad advice. What I'm suggesting is the way that you do it. By the way what's your license number. You are absolutely ridiculous and obviously you don't know what you're talking about. there are people on here that need genuine help and for you to say what you're saying is ridiculous. Three wire sub panel. run your bare copper wire to two separate ground rods. Keep your neutrals separate by not using your green screw. Put a groundhog in your sub panel. That's how it's done. End of discussion. You can twist and turn it however you want to make it seem like you know what you're talking about and you can make people feel better by whatever suggestions they might have That you agree with to make them feel better. I don't care about people's feelings I do what's right as a professional electrician. Go ahead and run your green screw in your sub panel. I could care less. I would never tell someone to do thatThat you agree with to make them feel better. I don't care about people's feelings I do what's right as a professional electrician. Go ahead and run your green screw in your sub panel. I could care less. not my advice!


sorry about that bud I thought you meant a four wire ground. You are correct on a three wire ground you need to bond the green screw with the neutral. Sorry about my rant I was thinking about a four wire installation. If it's installed in Greenfield or whatever metal pipe that can serve as your fourth wire Or grounding conductor.Sorry for the confusion.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

bloodhound said:


> telling people that I'm giving bad advice and saying that my suggestion is dangerous is ridiculous. You telling this guy to bond his neutral and ground is subpanel is the only thing that's dangerous and bad advice. What I'm suggesting is the way that you do it. By the way what's your license number. You are absolutely ridiculous and obviously you don't know what you're talking about. there are people on here that need genuine help and for you to say what you're saying is ridiculous. Three wire sub panel. run your bare copper wire to two separate ground rods. Keep your neutrals separate by not using your green screw. Put a groundhog in your sub panel. That's how it's done. End of discussion. You can twist and turn it however you want to make it seem like you know what you're talking about and you can make people feel better by whatever suggestions they might have That you agree with to make them feel better. I don't care about people's feelings I do what's right as a professional electrician. Go ahead and run your green screw in your sub panel. I could care less. I would never tell someone to do thatThat you agree with to make them feel better. I don't care about people's feelings I do what's right as a professional electrician. Go ahead and run your green screw in your sub panel. I could care less. not my advice!


You are wrong wrong wrong and that’s all I’m gonna say. The earth IS NOT A PERMANENTLY CONSTRUCTED LOW IMPEDENCE PATH BACK TO SOURCE. YOU ARE WRONG, and I don’t care what you say. I can’t take a guy seriously that quotes himself and ask what your license number is 😈


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

bloodhound said:


> telling people that I'm giving bad advice and saying that my suggestion is dangerous is ridiculous. You telling this guy to bond his neutral and ground is subpanel is the only thing that's dangerous and bad advice. What I'm suggesting is the way that you do it. By the way what's your license number. You are absolutely ridiculous and obviously you don't know what you're talking about. there are people on here that need genuine help and for you to say what you're saying is ridiculous. Three Three wire sub panel. run your bare copper wire to two separate ground rods. Keep your neutrals separate by not using your green screw. Put a groundhog in your sub panel. That's how it's done. End of discussion. You can twist and turn it however you want to make it seem like you know what you're talking about and you can make people feel better by whatever suggestions they might have That you agree with to make them feel better. I don't care about people's feelings I do what's right as a professional electrician. Go ahead and run your green screw in your sub panel. I could care less. I would never tell someone to do thatThat you agree with to make them feel better. I don't care about people's feelings I do what's right as a professional electrician. Go ahead and run your green screw in your sub panel. I could care less. not my advice!





bloodhound said:


> sorry about that bud I thought you meant a four wire ground. You are correct on a three wire ground you need to bond the green screw with the neutral. Sorry about my rant I was thinking about a four wire installation. If it's installed in Greenfield or whatever metal pipe that can serve as your fourth wire Or grounding conductor.Sorry for the confusion.


oh no no no you’re not gonna back pedal on us. You clearly stated three wire feed in the paragraph above. You insulted me and other people when you were the one that was wrong.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

I want to see the license number of the guy who puts a groundhog in a subpanel.


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## 210860 (Apr 12, 2021)

bring it on said:


> I hear you loud and clear. I know what the bonding screw is for. But if there is no ground wire to the sub panel there is no parallel path back to the bonding connection. I just ran across this today and the customer has a 60 amp 3 wire sub panel to a garage with no ground, but has a ground rod and a 6 solid and no bonding screw. I didn't like it at all but hate to leave the panel like it is until proper grounding can be completed. I believe it would be safer to temporarily install the bonding screw until the owner digs a new trench 50 feet back to the service. I'm not saying I would do this because of the liabilities. I was thinking of installing a 60 amp GFCI breaker to feed the sub panel temporarily. Any insight is appreciated.
> Thanks


The installation that you are describing in the above, was compliance in 2005 NFPA 70 , Chapter 2/ Article 250/ Section 32(B)(2)

*Also having a footprint: 
2008 Edition: 250.32(B) Exception: (For existing premises wiring systems only)
2011 Edition: 250.32(B) Exception: (For installations in compliance w/ previous editions)
2014 Edition: 250.32(B)(1) Exception#1 (For installations in compliance w/ previous editions)
2017 Edition: 250.32(B)(1) Exception#1 (For installations in compliance w/ previous editions)
*And finally, NFPA70 2020 Edition: 250.32(B)(1) Exception#1 (For installations in compliance w/ previous editions)

I knew remembering that from somewhere.. *But not every state adopted 250.32(B)_Exception:_ The State of North Carolina did, and the State of Washington, did not..


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## hornetd (Oct 30, 2014)

bloodhound said:


> The code book requires you to do your bonding and grounding at the first part of your switch whether it's at your meter or your main breaker panel. That's it. No more bonding anywhere in the circuit.


That is true now but, as has already stated it wasn't always true. At one time the National Electric Code (NEC) allowed separate buildings; which had no other conductive connection between it and the building the feeder came from; to be wired as if it were a service. I'm 71 years old and I remember that quite well. An existing installation cannot be forced to be brought up to a later NEC adoption by the Authority Having Jurisdiction because it would violate the Constitution's prohibition against ex post facto (passed after the fact) laws. If it was compliant to the locally adopted code when the installation was done it remains compliant for ever and always until the building is altered enough to trip a local code requirement which requires a remodel over a certain percentage of the structure's occupiable floor area to be treated as a new structure. This principle is one that is called "Black Letter Law." That means that it is always applicable in all situations. 

That means that if that panel is supplied through an original General Electric BX cable it is compliant in spite of the lack of the bonding strip inside the armor. The armor is the Equipment Grounding Conductor (EGC). The "Discussion Starter" has already stated that the resistance of the GEC is quite low. That means that there is not even a functional defect let alone an NEC non-compliance one.

-- 
Tom Horne


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## hornetd (Oct 30, 2014)

NJMike said:


> But, it can be seen that the BX cables are NOT the modern kind with separate grounding conductors, there's nothing but the sheathing.


That makes no difference unless it was installed after the publication of the UL examination standard which required a bonding conductor in Armored Cable (Type AC). The BX cable installed prior to that change and the adoption of the following addition of the NEC in that jurisdiction remains NEC compliant.



HackWork said:


> As for the BX, that's just the way it is. The metal sheath can only be considered an EGC if it has that thin little bonding strip running thru it.


This is untrue unless the BX was installed after the change of the listing examination standard to require a bonding strip. Absent some significant change in the original structure, that causes the now adopted edition of the electrical code used in that jurisdiction to be applied, the armor is an Equipment Grounding Conductor even though it does not have a bonding strip inside the armor. Absent some modifying circumstance, such as a substantial remodel, compliant then = compliant now. 

I don't claim that it is best practice now. I might even try to sell the owner the upgrade while being scrupulously honest that it is not required. If I were inspecting it and the GEC was no longer of low enough impedance to be safe then I would consider ordering an upgrade on the basis of "Clear and Present Danger." But I wouldn't bet the farm that would hold up on appeal to the review mechanism in that location. By upgrade I mean the addition of a low impedance EGC run alongside the existing circuit. Clear and Present Danger can only be used to justify an order that is the minimum necessary to remove the actual hazard. The present requirements of the locally adopted electrical code do not come into play in a Clear and Present Danger situation.

-- 
Tom Horne


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## hornetd (Oct 30, 2014)

bloodhound said:


> The code book requires you to do your bonding and grounding at the first part of your switch whether it's at your meter or your main breaker panel. That's it. No more bonding anywhere in the circuit.


That is true now but, as has already stated it wasn't always true. At one time the National Electric Code (NEC) allowed separate buildings; which had no other conductive connection between it and the building the feeder came from; to be wired as if it were a service. I'm 71 years old and I remember that quite well. An existing installation cannot be forced to be brought up to a later NEC adoption by the Authority Having Jurisdiction because it would violate the Constitution's prohibition against ex post facto (passed after the fact) laws.

-- 
Tom Horne


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## hornetd (Oct 30, 2014)

Dennis Alwon said:


> It was legal, until 2008, to run a 3 wire circuit to a detached building and bond the neutral to the can but you are right is you have an equipment grounding conductor then you must separate them.


*Dennis Alwon*

I thought the prohibition against 3 wire feeders to outbuildings came in earlier than that. Is my memory finally going or might you have been wrong about the edition of the National Electric Code that changed new outbuildings to having to have an Equipment Grounding Conductor (EGC) in the feeder. It just seams to me that requirement came in a lot earlier than that. 

-- 
Tom Horne


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

I don't have my books but I am quite certain


hornetd said:


> *Dennis Alwon*
> 
> I thought the prohibition against 3 wire feeders to outbuildings came in earlier than that. Is my memory finally going or might you have been wrong about the edition of the National Electric Code that changed new outbuildings to having to have an Equipment Grounding Conductor (EGC) in the feeder. It just seams to me that requirement came in a lot earlier than that.
> 
> ...


Nope, I am quite certain it was 2008. 2005 Nec made changes to section 250.32 and you had a choice of running an equipment grounding conductor or not, but 2008 stated fully that the equipment grounding conductor must be run


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## matt1124 (Aug 23, 2011)

I wish this professional electrician would come back and give us more genuine help. My license number is 147544. 🤣🤣


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

matt1124 said:


> I wish this professional electrician would come back and give us more genuine help. My license number is 147544. 🤣🤣


LOL


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