# changing a breaker



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

ichabod said:


> looking for advice on how everyone else deals with this. I am the master/journeyman electrician for a medical manufacturing company. we have multiple buildings at this location.
> 
> we are following the 70e and we have a new safety director. we are having a discussion on what is permitted hot work and what is not.
> 
> example question; new roof top unit installed, old unit 50 amp, new unit 40 amp. need to down size circuit breaker. standard bolt in 3 phase breaker. standard general purpose panel. would this be permitted work ?


Nope.

The specifics of why it needs to be changed are meaningless. The fact that there is no reason to work hot is what matters.

It's a general purpose panel, there is no reason you can't shut it down.


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

ichabod said:


> looking for advice on how everyone else deals with this. I am the master/journeyman electrician for a medical manufacturing company. we have multiple buildings at this location.
> 
> we are following the 70e and we have a new safety director. we are having a discussion on what is permitted hot work and what is not.
> 
> example question; new roof top unit installed, old unit 50 amp, new unit 40 amp. need to down size circuit breaker. standard bolt in 3 phase breaker. standard general purpose panel. would this be permitted work ?


Turn the feeder breaker off and lock it out. Changing those breakers will take less time than it takes to start noticing it is warming /cooling up inside the building .


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

There are few items so critical they can't be shut down making you work live. 

Not sure why so many guys think working live is a good idea.


----------



## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Not sure why so many guys think working live is a good idea.


Probably because they haven't seen someone's face burned off by 30000 degree copper vapor.

But I pick my battles. Today I changed out 15 exit lights, never turned one off. Tomorrow I have to add a 100 amp subfeed off of a 480 volt MDP... most definitely be turning that one off.


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

RePhase277 said:


> Probably because they haven't seen someone's face burned off by 30000 degree copper vapor.
> 
> But I pick my battles. Today I changed out 15 exit lights, never turned one off. Tomorrow I have to add a 100 amp subfeed off of a 480 volt MDP... most definitely be turning that one off.


Agreed, 120v is one thing but a 277v switch can sting if you make a mistake.


----------



## Signal1 (Feb 10, 2016)

Absolutely no reason to do that job live.
Do it at night or on Sunday if you have to. Get the overtime.

Medical manufacturer=they can afford it.

Either that or you're suiting up.

Can you afford to spend the rest of your life without eyeballs?


----------



## ichabod (Jun 29, 2015)

I agree with the above statements. I got no issues shutting down power to do this. the plant will just need to plan some down time for it.

I am a old dog, learning some new safety tricks..............

thanks, ichabod


----------



## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

RePhase277 said:


> Probably because they haven't seen someone's face burned off by 30000 degree copper vapor.
> 
> But I pick my battles. Today I changed out 15 exit lights, never turned one off. Tomorrow I have to add a 100 amp subfeed off of a 480 volt MDP... most definitely be turning that one off.


Pretty much same here. Some stuff I still do hot but as time goes on I find myself shutting down more often. Especially stuff with some serious energy behind it.


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

micromind said:


> Pretty much same here. Some stuff I still do hot but as time goes on I find myself shutting down more often. Especially stuff with some serious energy behind it.


As we get older we care more about our mortality.


----------



## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

MechanicalDVR said:


> As we get older we care more about our mortality.


Especially considering some of the stuff we've gotten away with.........lol.


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

micromind said:


> Especially considering some of the stuff we've gotten away with.........lol.


When you are sitting there having a drink with work friends that you've known a while and the "hey remember when you . . .? " and all you can think is man was I lucky that time.


----------



## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

micromind said:


> Especially considering some of the stuff we've gotten away with.........lol.


Great googly moogly, I have looked back on some of the stuff I've done and now think about others who have died doing similar. There are alternate universes where I didn't get so lucky. Heights, high voltage, moving machinery, explosives, animals, firearms, vehicles, fights, chemicals, sharp objects... women.. Damn I should be dead many times over.


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

RePhase277 said:


> Great googly moogly, I have looked back on some of the stuff I've done and now think about others who have died doing similar. There are alternate universes where I didn't get so lucky. Heights, high voltage, moving machinery, explosives, animals, firearms, vehicles, fights, chemicals, sharp objects... women.. Damn I should be dead many times over.


Reminded me of yeas ago being in a real old elevator with a small water cooled chiller with two other company guys when the car broke and fell a floor and a half. The brakes didn't work but the car cocked in the tracks.


----------



## catsparky1 (Sep 24, 2013)

Working in a hot 480 load center and boom went the dynamite . When I woke up The tip of my pinky finger was no longer required for my right hand .

OSHA everywhere 
safety team everywhere 

End result 
Not one soul could explain what went wrong or where my missing finger went .
Don't do it , trust me do not do it yo .


----------



## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Reminded me of yeas ago being in a real old elevator with a small water cooled chiller with two other company guys when the car broke and fell a floor and a half. The brakes didn't work but the car cocked in the tracks.


And to this day, all three of you still take the stairs.:laughing:


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

RePhase277 said:


> And to this day, all three of you still take the stairs.:laughing:


Well. . . . yeah pretty much.


----------



## Helmut (May 7, 2014)

Why change the breaker?

Leave it and the circuit, change the disconnect to a 60A fusible, and put 40a fuses in. 

No need to open the panel and shut stuff down.

IMO.


----------



## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Helmut said:


> Why change the breaker?
> 
> Leave it and the circuit, change the disconnect to a 60A fusible, and put 40a fuses in.
> 
> ...


Realistically this seems like the way to go, satisfies code, satisfies the safety officer, costs very little - much less than a shutdown. You avoid the debate, do your work, get paid, move along to the next thing.


----------



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

MechanicalDVR said:


> There are few items so critical they can't be shut down making you work live.


 And having seen guys accidentally trip critical systems while working live, I think that's exactly why you should also never work those systems hot: If you can't tolerate a planned outage, then you definitely can't tolerate an unplanned trip.


----------



## ichabod (Jun 29, 2015)

Helmut said:


> Why change the breaker?
> 
> Leave it and the circuit, change the disconnect to a 60A fusible, and put 40a fuses in.
> 
> ...


that's is the way I have done it in the past. but in the case we had 14 rooftops replaced over the weekend. ( more than I can handle by myself ) so we contracted it out to a good size electrical contractor and they used non-fused disconnects. now they said they were allowed to change out these breakers while panel is hot, our safety director but a stop to this. and said I would take care of the breaker change out during a down time.

just a few of the 14 units were fed from circuit breakers, the majority were fed from switch gear were the fuses could be changed out.

I guess my question is why would a large, very well regarded union shop say could do this. Am I missing something, we have been trying to comply with the 70e rules but we are still in the learning mode. and any insight to this would be helpful,

thanks


----------



## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

ichabod said:


> that's is the way I have done it in the past. but in the case we had 14 rooftops replaced over the weekend. ( more than I can handle by myself ) so we contracted it out to a good size electrical contractor and they used non-fused disconnects. now they said they were allowed to change out these breakers while panel is hot, our safety director but a stop to this. and said I would take care of the breaker change out during a down time.
> 
> just a few of the 14 units were fed from circuit breakers, the majority were fed from switch gear were the fuses could be changed out.
> 
> ...


The owner of a company can do it hot, but he can't direct his employees to. They're blowing smoke, gambling on others' ignorance.


----------



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

ichabod said:


> ...I guess my question is why would a large, very well regarded union shop say could do this?


 He's either ignorant of the rules or doesn't care about them. There's not really an Option C.

Wouldn't be the first time I've seen that: I've seen contractors hired to perform dangerous work that was a direct OSHA violation because the thinking was that by having the contractor do it, the parent company was absolved of any responsibility and liability.


----------



## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

Big John said:


> He's either ignorant of the rules or doesn't care about them. There's not really an Option C.
> 
> Wouldn't be the first time I've seen that: I've seen contractors hired to perform dangerous work that was a direct OSHA violation because the thinking was that by having the contractor do it, the parent company was absolved of any responsibility and liability.


The fallacy of that last part that they fail to understand is, hiring an outside contractor does NOT get the owners / managers of the end user off the hook for safe practices if something goes wrong. No matter what they do, THEY ARE RESPONSIBLE for providing a safe workplace, no matter who signs the paycheck.

By the way, from OSHA's standpoint, owners, mangers and supervisors who shirk this responsibility can be held CRIMINALLY liable for doing so. I attended a seminar on electrical safety programs put on by ex-OSHA inspectors, the gasps that went out in the room when they explained that were telling. This is something a LOT of management types do not know.

NFPA 70E is not a "law" it is a "suggestion". But there IS a Federal law (29 CFR 1910.331-.335 of the Federal Register) mandating that any employer must provide an electrical safety program for their workers, it must be officially reviewed every 3 years and that workers must be required to be trained and certified in it every year. What that program contains is not dictated, but it is STRONGLY SUGGESTED that it look like NFPA 70E. In NFPA 70E, you must either not work hot, or if it is unavoidable, you must have a process by which any electrical worker submits a plan and obtains a permit, SIGNED BY MANAGEMENT, that allows it to be performed in a prescribed manner.


----------

