# rigid metal coduit



## edgarsouthcali (Dec 14, 2009)

nec question.
rigid metal conduit can be strapped with everything except____.
a)one hole straps & two hole straps
b)wire
c)mineral straps
d)unistrut
e)all of the above


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

edgarsouthcali said:


> nec question.
> rigid metal conduit can be strapped with everything except____.
> a)one hole straps & two hole straps
> b)wire
> ...


IMO all of those can be NEC compliant.


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## paul d. (Jul 13, 2008)

Bob Badger said:


> IMO all of those can be NEC compliant.


 bob, please give example of the " wire " strapping method. :blink:


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

344.30 only says "Securely fastened in place and supported". No specifics, and no requirement for listed supports.


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## John (Jan 22, 2007)

Bob Badger said:


> IMO all of those can be NEC compliant.


Bob please explain what a "mineral straps" is. :jester:


AKA mini's, conduit hagers...........


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

paul d. said:


> bob, please give example of the " wire " strapping method. :blink:


Commonly referred to as roll straps in this area. underside of a beam, take tie wire and tie up the rigid. Now when I tied it down in decks I was taught to utilize a saddle tie with the wire doubled.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

brian john said:


> Now when I tied it down in decks I was taught to utilize a saddle tie with the wire doubled.


I find this very common in older buildings that have black iron, metal lathe and plaster.


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## JayH (Nov 13, 2009)

An inspector in Livermore, California failed an inspection of mine about twenty years ago for using tie wire to support conduit in a bar joist ceiling. He maintained that I could not prove the tie wire was listed for that use.

The inspectors in Livermore at that time inspected everything in the building.

Because I had so much conduit installed in the ceiling I appealed to his boss and he agreed the tie wire was an industry accepted standard.

The rest of my inspections on that project with the inspector were very thorough and time consuming. So much so that I ended up assigning an apprentice to walk with him and he would bring me any correction notices after the inspections.

So I vote wire.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

I've only used wire to secure pipe, not to support it. I wonder if the OP worded the question verbatim ?


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

I think it is obvious the person writing the questions expects the answer to be 'wire'.

My only point is the question cannot be supported by the NEC, only the writers opinion.




wildleg said:


> I've only used wire to secure pipe, not to support it. I wonder if the OP worded the question verbatim ?


The way the NEC is written it would not matter if you supported RMC with tie wire.

Having had some experience demoing tie wired MC I can tell you it is quite strong. Lets not forget entire sheet rock ceiling are sometimes supported with tie wire that is just twisted.


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

I thought you could only secure it as well. Like when you lay it across those skinny beams(don't know the exact name). As far as the answer, yeah I'd say the author of the question probably looking fro "wire" as well.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

John said:


> Bob please explain what a "mineral straps" is. :jester:
> 
> 
> AKA mini's, conduit hagers...........


I do not know about any mineral straps but in this area these are minerallac straps

http://minerallac.thomasnet.com/vie...-4?&plpver=10&bc=100|1098|1372|1377&forward=1


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## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

I believe there was a discussion similar to this on the other forum a while back, only that one was regarding tie wraps securing conduit. If I recall the general consensus was that, while many of us think this is a pretty hack method, it is allowable per the NEC. 

IMO this falls into the same category as not putting box offsets into conduit were needed, tie wrapping conduits, not using red heads, not pre twisting wires for wire-nuts, wrapping stranded wire around screws instead of using crimp terminals. These are all things that I consider hackish, and would not allow on my jobs, but are unfortunately NEC compliant and have to be allowed by the AHJ.

JMSHO.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

brian john said:


> I do not know about any mineral straps but in this area these are minerallac straps
> 
> http://minerallac.thomasnet.com/viewitems/l-categories-minerallac-conduit-cable-wire-condu-3/ries-minerallac-conduit-cable-wire-conduit-hange-4?&plpver=10&bc=100|1098|1372|1377&forward=1


Thats what we call them, always have. For fun ask for one at HD or Lowes. 

Tie wire is not listed and I would think it would be a violation. All the other methods are listed.
I will say I have used it before in slabs and concealed locations with no problems. I have used it heavily in steel fabricated ceilings.


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

John Valdes said:


> Thats what we call them, always have. For fun ask for one at HD or Lowes.
> 
> Tie wire is not listed and I would think it would be a violation. All the other methods are listed.
> I will say I have used it before in slabs and concealed locations with no problems. I have used it heavily in steel fabricated ceilings.


There is no NEC requirement that the securing and supporting means of rigid conduit be listed.

Chris


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

brian john said:


> I do not know about any mineral straps but in this area these are minerallac straps
> 
> http://minerallac.thomasnet.com/vie...-4?&plpver=10&bc=100|1098|1372|1377&forward=1


Thats what we have always called those straps here as well.

Chris


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

raider1 said:


> There is no NEC requirement that the securing and supporting means of rigid conduit be listed.


Which is good because 'strut clips' as strong and designed for the purpose they are they are still not listed.


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

Bob Badger said:


> Which is good because 'strut clips' as strong and designed for the purpose they are they are still not listed.


I agree.:thumbsup:

Chris


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## Otter (Nov 18, 2007)

Good guestion. According to 110.3B all equipment shall be labeled and listed, if tie wire isn't listed, how do we get away with doing it.


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## paul d. (Jul 13, 2008)

in the real electrical world tie wire in NOT allowed. i.e comm. /ind work. :no:


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

Tie wire is allowed here, but they won't let us tie up you can only tie down which I agree with.


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## Otter (Nov 18, 2007)

We only use it to tie down also. Otherwise we would have to use a beam clamp and a standoff strap.


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## paul d. (Jul 13, 2008)

william1978 said:


> Tie wire is allowed here, but they won't let us tie up you can only tie down which I agree with.


 is this new construction ? re-model ? :blink: never even heard of tie wire being used .


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

william1978 said:


> Tie wire is allowed here, but they won't let us tie up you can only tie down which I agree with.



I do not like it when stuff is tied up but I fail to see the logic here.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

paul d. said:


> is this new construction ? re-model ? :blink: never even heard of tie wire being used .


 Both. I can't stand tie wire or tywraps.:no:


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

brian john said:


> I do not like it when stuff is tied up but I fail to see the logic here.


 I suppose if the tie wire were to break or come loose the conduit doesn't fall. Just guessing here though.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

paul d. said:


> in the real electrical world tie wire in NOT allowed. i.e comm. /ind work. :no:


That is simply not true, you just have not seen it. I could bring you to dozens of buildings in Boston done by hard working union electricians that are done in RMC tie wired to the building structure, this is not exposed work, this is in the walls and ceilings tyeing the RMC to the black iron and metal lathe that make up the walls and ceilings.


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## Adam12 (May 28, 2008)

I worked for a company that used ty-wraps to support mc cable and 1" data drops in the walls during rough in. We would run a piece of pencil rod across from stud to stud and tie to that. 

When I first saw this I thought ty-wraps...WTF? They actually worked really well and were quick.


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

mineralac straps are stand-offs here


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

Otter said:


> Good guestion. According to 110.3B all equipment shall be labeled and listed, if tie wire isn't listed, how do we get away with doing it.


110.3(B) Does NOT require all equipment to be listed.

110.3(B) States that listed equipment shall be installed in accordance with the listing and lableling instructions.

Again there in NO NEC requirement that securing and supporting means for RMC, EMT or IMC..... be listed.

Chris


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

william1978 said:


> Both. I can't stand tie wire or tywraps.:no:


I like both, if used properly. For new construction, I cannot see how you could not use tie wire. I am talking com or ind or in Florida.



william1978 said:


> I suppose if the tie wire were to break or come loose the conduit doesn't fall. Just guessing here though.


That makes perfect sense to me.



Bob Badger said:


> That is simply not true, you just have not seen it. I could bring you to dozens of buildings in Boston done by hard working union electricians that are done in RMC tie wired to the building structure, this is not exposed work, this is in the walls and ceilings tyeing the RMC to the black iron and metal lathe that make up the walls and ceilings.


You are right Bob. I have been on jobs where I used tie wire all day every day for weeks to strap concealed conduits. 

But would you use tie wire and a "nail in" to hold up 2" RMC to the side of a building? I sure would not. I would use a strap listed for this purpose.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Heck, I've duct taped MC to the side of metal studs when I was in a time crunch and the work will be concealed. Not ashamed to admit it.


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## wwilson174 (Apr 25, 2008)

MDShunk said:


> Heck, I've duct taped MC to the side of metal studs when I was in a time crunch and the work will be concealed. Not ashamed to admit it.


 
I would like to see your definition of " time crunch"


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> Heck, I've duct taped MC to the side of metal studs when I was in a time crunch and the work will be concealed. Not ashamed to admit it.


Ever bury a 6X6 PVC splice box under sod, but at dirt grade level.. just curious


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> Ever bury a 6X6 PVC splice box under sod, but at dirt grade level.. just curious


No particular reason I was just wondering. :laughing:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> No particular reason I was just wondering. :laughing:


 
......


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

wwilson174 said:


> I would like to see your definition of " time crunch"


Drywallers standing there behind me, holding sheets of wallboard, while I'm fastening H23's and putting whips in boxes.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

MDShunk said:


> Drywallers standing there behind me, holding sheets of wallboard, while I'm fastening H23's and putting whips in boxes.


 What about the inspection?


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

william1978 said:


> What about the inspection?


When in Rome...


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> Heck, I've duct taped MC to the side of metal studs when I was in a time crunch and the work will be concealed. Not ashamed to admit it.



I once used hubba bubba bubble gum.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> Heck, I've duct taped MC to the side of metal studs when I was in a time crunch and the work will be concealed. Not ashamed to admit it.


I have seen that done.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

MDShunk said:


> When in Rome...


 I see said the blind man.:laughing:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> Heck, I've duct taped MC to the side of metal studs when I was in a time crunch and the work will be concealed. Not ashamed to admit it.


That is truly hack. And you have no shame so I'm not surprised to see you reach such a low position in life.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Peter D said:


> That is truly hack. And you have no shame so I'm not surprised to see you reach such a low position in life.


 
He never buried 6X6 PVC boxes under sod, so he is still "traveling" :whistling2:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> He never buried 6X6 PVC boxes under sod, so he is still "traveling" :whistling2:


Anyone that would bury boxes like that is beyond hack. They are an irredeemable butcher worthy of fines and imprisonment.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Peter D said:


> Anyone that would bury boxes like that is beyond hack. They are an irredeemable butcher worthy of fines and imprisonment.


 
Jealous?


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Jealous?


That someone was able to out-hack me? Yes, definitely jealous.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Peter D said:


> That someone was able to out-hack me? Yes, definitely jealous.


And now you feel............ threatened?:whistling2:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

480sparky said:


> And now you feel............ threatened?:whistling2:


Perhaps. :whistling2:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Peter D said:


> Anyone that would bury boxes like that is beyond hack. They are an irredeemable butcher worthy of fines and imprisonment.


[URL="http://www.mysmiley.net/free-character-smileys.php"][/URL]


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## wwilson174 (Apr 25, 2008)

MDShunk said:


> Drywallers standing there behind me, holding sheets of wallboard, while I'm fastening H23's and putting whips in boxes.


 
That to me would be a "planning crunch" and would not change the standards of my work!


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

It's a whole new environment now. It's all about hurry the f*ck up, just put it in. All they seem to care about now, is when they hit the switch does the lights come on. They could care less what it looks like between the switch and the light. It seems most jobs anyways.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> Heck, I've duct taped MC to the side of metal studs when I was in a time crunch and the work will be concealed. Not ashamed to admit it.


In the 80s when I was doing condos electrical tape was all we used to secure NM to metal studs.



william1978 said:


> What about the inspection?



What about it?

We had rough inspections, they passed and the drywall would be hung.


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## wwilson174 (Apr 25, 2008)

Bob Badger said:


> In the 80s when I was doing condos electrical tape was all we used to secure NM to metal studs.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
It seems as though we lived in different worlds, I liked mine better!


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

wwilson174 said:


> It seems as though we lived in different worlds, I liked mine better!



Can you point to an NEC section that prohibits using tape to secure or support a cable?

If the customer pays for a Kia they get a Kia, that is how the world should work.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

Bob Badger said:


> What about it?
> 
> We had rough inspections, they passed and the drywall would be hung.


 Thats why I was asking about the inspection. Marc was running his mc or romex and the sheetrocker was right behind him hanging. Getting a inspection would have given him a little bit more breathing room that is all.

Around here sheetrocker or the GC don't cover up the electrician or one side the walls till the rough wall has passed.


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## wwilson174 (Apr 25, 2008)

Bob Badger said:


> Can you point to an NEC section that prohibits using tape to secure or support a cable?
> 
> If the customer pays for a Kia they get a Kia, that is how the world should work.


 
Neither can I point to any legislation prohibiting suspending elephants by their tails from the streetlights, but I know better!


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

I think Marc's point was there was no inspection needed because no papers were filed.

Happens around here all the time.

Is there a building permit on the job.. *NO*

Do you want an electrical inspection.. *DEFINITELY NO*

If I refuse to do it without an inspection, the next guy will


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

wwilson174 said:


> Neither can I point to any legislation prohibiting suspending elephants by their tails from the streetlights, but I know better!


Abusing animals is against the law and street lights are private property.


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## wwilson174 (Apr 25, 2008)

Black4Truck said:


> Abusing animals is against the law and street lights are private property.


 

I'm sorry I'll never do it again!


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

I wouldn't use either. I can see duct tape lasting sometime, but I don't think electrical tape would last that long. Straps or Colorado Jim's aren't that expensive. Worst case drill 2 1/4" holes in the stud and use tie wire or a tie wrap. I prefer the Colorado Jims.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

wwilson174 said:


> Neither can I point to any legislation prohibiting suspending elephants by their tails from the streetlights, but I know better!



Well that would likely fall under some sort of animal protection law and sounds like it would be dangerous to people and property.

Using black tape to tape NM to a metal studs is neither so I guess I am missing you're point.



Loose Neutral said:


> I wouldn't use either. I can see duct tape lasting sometime, but I don't think electrical tape would last that long.


How long does it need to last?

The only thing the tape does is keep the cables out of the way of the sheet rocker, once the rocker is done the job of there tape if done. That is also forgetting that once the stud is rocked on both sides the tape could not unwrap from the stud anyway.

Try to separate what looks pretty and you like to do from what is safe and what is required.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Bob Badger said:


> How long does it need to last?


from a few minutes to several months and duct has a much longer life than this.



> The only thing the tape does is keep the cables out of the way of the sheet rocker, once the rocker is done the job of there tape if done. That is also forgetting that once the stud is rocked on both sides the tape could not unwrap from the stud anyway.


A fact many electricians and inspectors fail to understand and the chance of damage from tape is minimal compared to the green apprentice driving a staple.



> Try to separate what looks pretty and you like to do from what is safe and what is required.


And as soon as the rock is up pretty is no longer an issue.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

Does the NEC not mention the words "Craftsmanship". While I agree hidden cables and conduits are tied, taped and left unsupported in metal framing members all the time, there were many days driving home from the job site thinking what a hack I was for doing it. Just me I guess.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

John Valdes said:


> Does the NEC not mention the words "Craftsmanship".


If the customer wants to pay for me to do 'art' work that is great, I will be happy to.:thumbsup:

On the other hand if the customer has nickle and dimed us throughout the biding process they get only what is required per contract and code, not a bit more.

I give nothing away, ..... I guess that is just me.


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## crazymurph (Aug 19, 2009)

Loose Neutral said:


> I wouldn't use either. I can see duct tape lasting sometime, but I don't think electrical tape would last that long. Straps or Colorado Jim's aren't that expensive. Worst case drill 2 1/4" holes in the stud and use tie wire or a tie wrap. I prefer the Colorado Jims.


 What are Colorado Jims?


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## wwilson174 (Apr 25, 2008)

John Valdes said:


> Does the NEC not mention the words "Craftsmanship". While I agree hidden cables and conduits are tied, taped and left unsupported in metal framing members all the time, there were many days driving home from the job site thinking what a hack I was for doing it. Just me I guess.


 

You are correct; "workmanlike manner" is another term found in the books.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

wwilson174 said:


> You are correct; "workmanlike manner" is another term found in the books.


Yeah, here is another book they are in, the NFPA manual of style.


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## KayJay (Jan 20, 2008)

Considering 344.6, I suppose in reality, it could come down to how loosely your AHJ applies the term fitting… as it is described in Art 100…. An *accessory *such as a locknut, bushing, *or other part of a wiring system* that is intended primarily to perform a *mechanical* rather than electrical function.
I can’t really imagine an inspector having a problem with tie wire being used in a slab though.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

crazymurph said:


> What are Colorado Jims?


 CJ6 Caddy #


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## wwilson174 (Apr 25, 2008)

Bob Badger said:


> Can you point to an NEC section that prohibits using tape to secure or support a cable?
> 
> If the customer pays for a Kia they get a Kia, that is how the world should work.


334.30 Securing and Supporting. Nonmetallic-sheathed
cable shall be supported and secured by staples, cable ties,
straps, hangers, or similar fittings designed and installed so
as not to damage the cable, at intervals not exceeding 1.4 m
(41#8260;2 ft) and within 300 mm (12 in.) of every outlet box,
junction box, cabinet, or fitting. Flat cables shall not be
stapled on edge.
Sections of cable protected from physical damage by raceway
shall not be required to be secured within the raceway.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

wwilson174 said:


> 334.30 Securing and Supporting. Nonmetallic-sheathed
> cable shall be supported and secured by staples, cable ties,
> straps, hangers, or similar fittings designed and installed so
> as not to damage the cable, at intervals not exceeding 1.4 m
> ...



None of that precludes tape or any other item meeting the approval of the inspector of wires.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

That might have passed on the fly when it was crunch time, but I can't see taping wires to the stud as being an acceptable practice.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Loose Neutral said:


> That might have passed on the fly when it was crunch time, but I can't see taping wires to the stud as being an acceptable practice.


 
Why? It seems like it works, and it seems better than some of the methods mentioned. Just because you (not necessarily you but you in the global sense) have not thought of, seen or done a particular practice does not preclude it from being an acceptable method.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

I Like this!



Bob Badger said:


> Yeah, here is another book they are in, the NFPA manual of style.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

brian john said:


> I Like this!


 
Here's the whole shebang.


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## wwilson174 (Apr 25, 2008)

Bob Badger said:


> None of that precludes tape or any other item meeting the approval of the inspector of wires.


 
The question that you posed was whether or not I could cite a NEC reference supporting my view that taping cables to structural members was not acceptable practice. Have I answered your challenge ?


Veni, Vidi, Vici.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

brian john said:


> Why? It seems like it works, and it seems better than some of the methods mentioned. Just because you (not necessarily you but you in the global sense) have not thought of, seen or done a particular practice does not preclude it from being an acceptable method.


With your high standards you have to ask why? I just don't think that is acceptable practice. I know we have all done an installation and for whatever reason it wasn't the best install, but I still say I would rather use straps, CJ or tie wire. I'm sure mdshunk only did that once or twice in a pinch. I know if I or one of my fellow electricians did installs that way, they would laugh us off the job.


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## dontreadthis (Jan 17, 2021)

EBFD6 said:


> I believe there was a discussion similar to this on the other forum a while back, only that one was regarding tie wraps securing conduit. If I recall the general consensus was that, while many of us think this is a pretty hack method, it is allowable per the NEC. IMO this falls into the same category as not putting box offsets into conduit were needed, tie wrapping conduits, not using red heads, not pre twisting wires for wire-nuts, wrapping stranded wire around screws instead of using crimp terminals. These are all things that I consider hackish, and would not allow on my jobs, but are unfortunately NEC compliant and have to be allowed by the AHJ. JMSHO.


 The ahj can disallow anything, actually. They are the authority and adopt the NEC by choice. They can also amend it to their hearts content (for their jurisdiction).


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## Breakfasteatre (Sep 8, 2009)

dontreadthis said:


> The ahj can disallow anything, actually. They are the authority and adopt the NEC by choice. They can also amend it to their hearts content (for their jurisdiction).


13 years ago the last post.


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