# Sticky  Union Topics on ElectricianTalk.com



## MichiganElectrician

Thanks for the post Nathan.

I agree that we should all respect each other. :thumbsup:

We are all just electricians trying to earn a living.

I'm a proud IBEW Local 58 member out of Detroit.

Anyone from Detroit knows that is quite a thing to say. Even those from other parts of the country know that the domestic auto industry is dying in Detroit.

I haven't worked in my own jurisdiction for quite some time. I'm a tramp by choice. I get treated better on the road than in my own local during these tough times.

We have over 1600 on the out of work list at this time. Mostly due to the state of the auto industry and the economy.

However the great thing about being an IBEW Electrician, is that even though there hasn't been much work in my own local for more years than I care to admit.

I can travel the country and just sign the book, wait my turn, and make the prevailing wage and benefit package wherever I go. At the same time earning benefits like I have worked for the same contractor for the 21 years I have been in the IBEW!

No interviews, resumes, phone calls, or BS! 

Not to mention wherever I go in this great country of ours, many brothers in the same situation as myself are more than willing to help me out, and I help them out. Bottom line is that if your a brother your never alone.

That is just a small slice of the brotherhood.:thumbup:

:thumbsup:


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## MichiganElectrician

*Merry Christmas to All*

Just wanted to wish a Merry Christmas to all the Electricians out there. 

Although we may disagree on the subject of the IBEW, I wish you all the best in everything that life has to offer.

Best wishes to you and your families for a more prosperous New Year.

Also please remember that there is always more power in the group than the individual. :thumbsup:


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## luby104

The Dawn. Sec. 297


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## traveler

I just joined this site.

I was brought up in the trade through the Union, and have worked with men who came up through the non-union shops....some were good hands, some weren't. I think you will find that ANYWHERE.

If I can help answer any questions, pls let me know. I would also love to learn some new tricks/tips from any man not afraid to carry tools!

Been away from the tools for 6.5 years now, as I went back in the service. Will retire in 6 years, and then would like to go back tot he tools. Of course I'll be close to 50, so it will be hard to hold a job, but I'll give it a shot.

~joe


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## Lucky

Local 58 Bro.
I can't beiieve you NEVER, EVER don't BS SOMEBODY!!!
I have been known to do a bit of throwing the BULL at times, so I find it hard to believe you don't OCCASIONALLY!!!
Any contractor I have ever worked for knows I do bit of stretching the trooooooth!!!, but I get the work done.
Lucky


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## RIVETER

*Union topic*



Nathan said:


> Hey Guys,
> 
> I want to make a quick post and address a few issues that have popped up on Electrician Talk recently. Specifically on the topic of Unions.
> 
> This site is dedicated to professional electricians and ALL those who work in the electrical industry. That's the topic. We ARE NOT a Union site. We do have a sub forum topic on Unions because it is relevant to a lot of electricians and we feel it's an important topic to cover. We want you to be able to come here and talk about unions issues if that's something that effects you. But attacking people who aren't in Unions or having a US vs. THEM attitude will not be allowed on this site.
> 
> Please take a moment and read through our Posting Rules and think this through. Are you willing to follow those basic rules of respecting other people and exchanging information with both union and non union electricians? If so then we are glad your here. If not then this probably isn't the site for you.
> 
> One last note: I think we've proven by having a union topic that we are very open to union members being here so this is not an anti-union post. *We just want everyone to respect each other.*
> 
> Thanks!* :thumbsup:*


I agree with you ; If everyone who is working with a union is happy with that,and everyone who is not working with a union is happy with that,then the only other thing to discuss would be work related issues. There is no basis for mud slinging.

Riveter (UNION) and happy with that


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## Brother Noah1

Nathan I can understand your concerns on your site but upon reading some old post(side jobs) it is an all out attack on union members and a lack of posting ethics(some by your long time members) It is your site but like anything if there are 2 sets of rules for those or them, then you yourself might be the cause of some of the animosity. We are all in the electrical field and we should all work towards a goal of peace for all.


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## GoodLookingUglyGuy

Do people bother reading the original l post date? :no:


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## wildleg

MichiganElectrician said:


> Just wanted to wish a Merry Christmas to all the Electricians out there.
> 
> Although we may disagree on the subject of the IBEW, I wish you all the best in everything that life has to offer.
> 
> Best wishes to you and your families for a more prosperous New Year.
> 
> Also please remember that there is always more power in the group than the individual. :thumbsup:


Merry Xmas, Duuuude !

party on !


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## big2bird

Brother Noah said:


> Nathan I can understand your concerns on your site but upon reading some old post(side jobs) it is an all out attack on union members and a lack of posting ethics(some by your long time members) It is your site but like anything if there are 2 sets of rules for those or them, then you yourself might be the cause of some of the animosity. We are all in the electrical field and we should all work towards a goal of peace for all.


I seem to be reading the same thing here now. Is it just me, or is open bashing of unions allowed here?


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## MDShunk

If you think what you read is bad, you should see what we delete!


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## big2bird

Why all the animosity? If a guy is "happy and thrilled" to be non union, why the need to stomp on someone whom has chosen a different path?


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## nolabama

I haven't seen a post by Nathan in , well, years. Lol


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## B4T

This place would be boring without the constant RAT vs Brother Noah debates we manage to stir up out of thin air... :thumbup:


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## big2bird

B4T said:


> This place would be boring without the constant RAT vs Brother Noah debates we manage to stir up out of thin air... :thumbup:


I have no issue with that as long as it's civil and it stays real. I have non union friends, and we respect each others right to work, live, and co exist. I can openly discuss both the pros and cons of each. 
However, just bashing "because" for no real reason is going to wear me thin very quickly.


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## brian john

big2bird said:


> Why all the animosity? If a guy is "happy and thrilled" to be non union, why the need to stomp on someone whom has chosen a different path?


Union takes a bit of a bashing here but on the streets (based strictly on my experience) the unions have IN THE PAST beat down verbally open shop workers, picketed jobs and generally been a PIA.

Most of what (NOT ALL) of what is posted here that union members, call bashing often is the truth and the union members can handle it and seriously sound like cry babies.


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## big2bird

Wow. Picketed jobs? Maybe we should abolish the first ammendment so we won't annoy you? :laughing:

I see you are a moderator. I sense this "may" not be a fair fight/discussion.


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## greenman

Thanks


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## eejack

big2bird said:


> Wow. Picketed jobs? Maybe we should abolish the first ammendment so we won't annoy you? :laughing:
> 
> I see you are a moderator. I sense this "may" not be a fair fight/discussion.


Actually I never noticed Brian John was a mod, and I have had a few discussions with him so keep it civil and I suspect he will be fair.

As fair as a shake and bake can be, but I am working on him.


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## macmikeman

Hey, if I get stink mail from Speedy Pete for trying to wake up sleeping about to become hungry and homeless and broke due to crashing the dollar,electricians, then you should just kill the non union/ union threads right away also..........imho, but if you don't want to we all know thats your perogative (sp?) also... 





Ps, wake up, they are crashing the dollar on purpose....


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## wendon

big2bird said:


> I have no issue with that as long as it's civil and it stays real. I have non union friends, and we respect each others right to work, live, and co exist. I can openly discuss both the pros and cons of each.
> However, just bashing "because" for no real reason is going to wear me thin very quickly.


Why don't you post a link to the so-called bashing. I suspect that as long as the bashing is coming from the union side it's okay, correct? Have you ever heard of a non-union electrician going in at night and ripping out a union electricians work? Probably not. Have you ever heard of a non-union worker causing trouble for a union worker and picketing? Probably not. What do you mean by "wearing thin"?


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## big2bird

wendon said:


> Why don't you post a link to the so-called bashing. I suspect that as long as the bashing is coming from the union side it's okay, correct? Have you ever heard of a non-union electrician going in at night and ripping out a union electricians work? Probably not. Have you ever heard of a non-union worker causing trouble for a union worker and picketing? Probably not. What do you mean by "wearing thin"?


Once again I ask. Would you like to abolish the first ammendment? As an American, I have the right to protest anything I so choose.


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## B4T

big2bird said:


> Wow. Picketed jobs? Maybe we should abolish the first ammendment so we won't annoy you? :laughing:
> 
> I see you are a moderator. I sense this "may" not be a fair fight/discussion.


And you would be 100% wrong.. Brian has no trouble seeing the debate from *both sides* of the fence..

Just because he wears a "badge" doesn't mean he can't see straight anymore and be fair..


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## 360max

this isn't a union site? 













:whistling2::laughing:


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## wendon

big2bird said:


> Once again I ask. Would you like to abolish the first ammendment? As an American, I have the right to protest anything I so choose.


And you're definitely exercising that right yes you are!!:notworthy::notworthy::notworthy:


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## eejack

wendon said:


> Have you ever heard of a non-union worker causing trouble for a union worker and picketing? Probably not.


Non union workers don't picket because by definition they are not organized ( and it is hard to picket when you are all by yourself - it is kind of like circling one wagon )


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## HARRY304E

big2bird said:


> Once again I ask. Would you like to abolish the first ammendment? As an American, I have the right to protest anything I so choose.


Whats wrong with the first amendment?:blink:


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## eejack

wendon said:


> And you're definitely exercising that right yes you are!!:notworthy::notworthy::notworthy:


I see your troll-fu is working well this evening. 

Still never gave up a reason why you hate unions so much.

It was the cheerios thing, right? It always goes wrong with the cheerios bit.


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## big2bird

360max said:


> this isn't a union site?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :whistling2::laughing:


I could have sworn this said Union topics. Misprint?


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## HARRY304E

eejack said:


> Non union workers don't picket because by definition they are not organized ( and it is hard to picket when you are all by yourself - it is kind of like circling one wagon )


Non Union worker Don't picket because they are usually at work.


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## eejack

HARRY304E said:


> Non Union worker Don't picket because they are usually at work.


This requires a rimshot.


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## big2bird

HARRY304E said:


> Whats wrong with the first amendment?:blink:


It appears to annoy some members here.


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## HARRY304E

big2bird said:


> It appears to annoy some members here.


Then it looks like the first amendment is working...:thumbsup:


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## wendon

eejack said:


> Non union workers don't picket because by definition they are not organized ( and it is hard to picket when you are all by yourself - it is kind of like circling one wagon )


:laughing::laughing::laughing: And I'm so busy, when would I find time to go picket?? What would I picket about?? Maybe "Outlaw SEU Cable" ?? And how would I decide where to go? One of the last signs I seen was set up by a girl on the curb that said she had been abandoned and didn't have any money or something of that nature. Still, the "wearing thin" thing  deal!


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## brian john

big2bird said:


> I could have sworn this said Union topics. Misprint?


Union topics cover a wide range of stuff and can be pro, anti or middle of the road.


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## big2bird

HARRY304E said:


> Non Union worker Don't picket because they are usually at work.


Perhaps if you made a living wage, you too could afford some time off.


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## B4T

eejack said:


> Non union workers don't picket because by definition they are not organized ( and it is hard to picket when you are all by yourself - it is kind of like circling one wagon )


I could easily print up fliers and stop in every SH in my area if there was a legit reason to picket...

Most of the large construction jobs here go to Union labor and I could care less...

It is the Unions who have a bug up their tailpipe if the job goes non-union.. they feel it is *their right *to be on that job.. now why is that?? :blink::blink:


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## big2bird

HARRY304E said:


> Then it looks like the first amendment is working...:thumbsup:


Wow. We agree on something. :thumbsup:


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## eejack

B4T said:


> they feel it is *their right *to be on that job.. now why is that?? :blink::blink:


Because that is what unions are supposed to do, go out and find work for their members. Non union folks go out to find jobs, contractor seek out work, and so do unions. It is a hiring hall, and if there are no projects to hire to, then there is no point in having a union.


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## big2bird

B4T said:


> It is the Unions who have a bug up their tailpipe if the job goes non-union.. they feel it is *their right *to be on that job.. now why is that?? :blink::blink:


Maybe, just maybe, to stay employed just like you would prefer.


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## wendon

eejack said:


> I see your troll-fu is working well this evening.
> 
> Still never gave up a reason why you hate unions so much.
> 
> It was the cheerios thing, right? It always goes wrong with the cheerios bit.


Where did you get that idea? I just enjoy a good argument!!! Don't recall ever using the word hate. Unions haven't caused me any problems. I have discovered one thing though if your going to give, you better be willing to receive! Right!


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## HARRY304E

big2bird said:


> Wow. We agree on something. :thumbsup:


Yes every now and then we will slip up and agree on something,But do not worry ,we will find a good healthy argument....:laughing:


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## stuiec

Does anyone else see the irony here? :laughing:


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## big2bird

HARRY304E said:


> Yes every now and then we will slip up and agree on something,But do not worry ,we will find a good healthy argument....:laughing:


Sounds fair to me.:thumbsup:


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## big2bird

stuiec said:


> Does anyone else see the irony here? :laughing:


I do. It may or may not be what you are thinking though.:laughing:

My first night on here, and 50 PM box limit may not be enough. LMAO


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## eejack

wendon said:


> Where did you get that idea? I just enjoy a good argument!!! Don't recall ever using the word hate. Unions haven't caused me any problems. I have discovered one thing though if your going to give, you better be willing to receive! Right!


Agreed. I just wonder at the reasoning why folks don't like unions. And I don't mean fairy tales about leaning on shovels or stories of someones sister's cousin's hairdresser knows a union guy, I mean honest open reasons.

We cannot fix anything unless we know what the problem is.


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## B4T

eejack said:


> Because that is what unions are supposed to do, go out and find work for their members. Non union folks go out to find jobs, contractor seek out work, and so do unions. It is a hiring hall, and if there are no projects to hire to, then there is no point in having a union.


Why can't non-union folks go out and find work just like the big boys do??

If they don't get their way.. they set up lawn chairs and giant rats..

They give nasty looks to any non-union trade that works on the jobsite..

So you feel this is what Unions are suppose to do to find work for their members?? :blink::blink:


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## wendon

HARRY304E said:


> Yes every now and then we will slip up and agree on something,But do not worry ,we will find a good healthy argument....:laughing:


Reminds me of the guy I used to work with. We argued about quite a number of things like politics etc. He'd get quite hot about it but it kept one on his toes as you always needed to keep a little ammo up your sleeve to insert at the right time. Called him a while after I quit and while talking on the phone we got into an argument. Wow, I said this is like old times! I know he said and I miss it!!!:laughing::laughing:


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## big2bird

B4T said:


> Why can't non-union folks go out and find work just like the big boys do??


I don't know. Why not?


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## stuiec

big2bird said:


> I do. It may or may not be what you are thinking though.:laughing:
> 
> My first night on here, and 50 PM box limit may not be enough. LMAO


Welcome to Wonderland!:thumbsup:


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## B4T

eejack said:


> Agreed. I just wonder at the reasoning why folks don't like unions. QUOTE]
> 
> That is too broad of a statement to be taken seriously here.. :no::no:
> 
> I tried to get into the Union way back in 1973.. but you needed a "sponsor or uncle" who had pull inside the Union hall..
> 
> I never did get the call.. .. so I figured the next best thing was to write my own ticket instead..


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## eejack

B4T said:


> Why can't non-union folks go out and find work just like the big boys do??
> 
> If they don't get their way.. they set up lawn chairs and giant rats..
> 
> They give nasty looks to any non-union trade that works on the jobsite..
> 
> So you feel this is what Unions are suppose to do to find work for their members?? :blink::blink:


Yes, it is part of it. 

Non union folks cannot set up giant rats because they don't have the weight in numbers...though I did see a restaurant in saddle brook nj that had a non union picket/protest in front a week or so ago. I stopped by and tried to talk to them but my spanish is useless.


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## wendon

eejack said:


> Agreed. I just wonder at the reasoning why folks don't like unions. And I don't mean fairy tales about leaning on shovels or stories of someones sister's cousin's hairdresser knows a union guy, I mean honest open reasons.
> 
> We cannot fix anything unless we know what the problem is.


A guy I used to work with moved out of state and is working for a large non-union shop. He tells me about working on the same site as union workers. They won't allow the non-union guys to park next to the building, won't allow them to store their equipment on the job stuff like that, what gives? Is he pulling my leg? All I have to go on is numerous stories I've heard. I've never had to deal with it myself.


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## B4T

big2bird said:


> I don't know. Why not?


You need to ask eejack.. those are his words..


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## big2bird

Let me ask MY first question. In California, where I have paid taxes for longer than I can remember, one of the largest contracts in State history to build a new Oakland Bay bridge has been awarded by Cal Trans to a CHINESE construction company. 
As a taxpayer, I am mad as hell. Now, the question/and be real.
If I throw up a picket to protest this, while American workers are unemployed at record rates, would you blame me? Would you even encourage me as a fellow American worker?


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## stuiec

eejack said:


> Non union workers don't picket because by definition they are not organized ( and it is hard to picket when you are all by yourself - it is kind of like circling one wagon )


 
One man pickets are rare, and ineffective in the long haul...have another name that escapes me...

View attachment 17709


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## eejack

B4T said:


> You need to ask eejack.. those are his words..


No no no. You are doing it wrong. 

I said 
"Non union folks go out to find jobs" 
and you said
"Why can't non-union folks go out and find work just like the big boys do??"
and then big2bird said
"I don't know. Why not?"
and your response is supposed to be 
"Third Base."


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## HARRY304E

eejack said:


> Agreed. I just wonder at the reasoning why folks don't like unions. And I don't mean fairy tales about leaning on shovels or stories of someones sister's cousin's hairdresser knows a union guy, I mean honest open reasons.
> 
> We cannot fix anything unless we know what the problem is.


I tried in to get in,In 1977 and they straitened me out for having the nerve to bother them.....:boxing::boxing::laughing:


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## HARRY304E

eejack said:


> No no no. You are doing it wrong.
> 
> I said
> "Non union folks go out to find jobs"
> and you said
> "Why can't non-union folks go out and find work just like the big boys do??"
> and then big2bird said
> "I don't know. Why not?"
> and your response is supposed to be
> "Third Base."


Who?:blink:


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## big2bird

wendon said:


> A guy I used to work with moved out of state and is working for a large non-union shop. He tells me about working on the same site as union workers. They won't allow the non-union guys to park next to the building, won't allow them to store their equipment on the job stuff like that, what gives? Is he pulling my leg? All I have to go on is numerous stories I've heard. I've never had to deal with it myself.


Those issues would be decided by the General Contractor. You would have to ask him. His call.


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## eejack

HARRY304E said:


> I tried in to get in,In 1977 and they straitened me out for having the nerve to bother them.....:boxing::boxing::laughing:


So fair enough, you and B4T take exception to being passed over for membership. I can understand and appreciate that. How about the rest?


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## big2bird

HARRY304E said:


> I tried in to get in,In 1977 and they straitened me out for having the nerve to bother them.....:boxing::boxing::laughing:


First real reason I have heard, and understandable too.


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## wendon

big2bird said:


> Let me ask MY first question. In California, where I have paid taxes for longer than I can remember, one of the largest contracts in State history to build a new Oakland Bay bridge has been awarded by Cal Trans to a CHINESE construction company.
> As a taxpayer, I am mad as hell. Now, the question/and be real.
> If I throw up a picket to protest this, while American workers are unemployed at record rates, would you blame me? Would you even encourage me as a fellow American worker?


Might not hurt if you're able to write in Chinese! :laughing::laughing:


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## big2bird

wendon said:


> Might not hurt if you're able to write in Chinese! :laughing::laughing:


:laughing:Touche.:laughing:


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## eejack

wendon said:


> A guy I used to work with moved out of state and is working for a large non-union shop. He tells me about working on the same site as union workers. They won't allow the non-union guys to park next to the building, won't allow them to store their equipment on the job stuff like that, what gives? Is he pulling my leg? All I have to go on is numerous stories I've heard. I've never had to deal with it myself.


That sounds about right. Non union contractors tend to avoid putting anything at risk of union interference on a job site. They are under the impression that union workers would intentionally damage their workers vehicles and tools.

And that has happened and will continue to happen - we have done a very good job reducing the violence in the workplace. But it is not entirely gone. Conversely, anything that happens to those non union folks and their schtuff is automatically blamed on us union folks, whether or not we were involved.

We are treated like the boogeyman.


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## macmikeman

You know I'd sorta give the unions a whole lot more support if they were ever to abandon their unfathomable support of all things un-American. I mean it.
Tell you what, I will post all good things about Unions, right after you all elect Harry to become the next President of the IBEW. Harry would lead them all in the right direction by gumphry. You guys do that, elect Harry to office, and I'm all in.


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## wendon

big2bird said:


> Those issues would be decided by the General Contractor. You would have to ask him. His call.


Well, it sounds like more hassle then I'd care to deal with. I'd rather live in the rural area quite a ways from the big cities. I don't have to go out looking for work as it seems to look for me. I've got my good customers and am able to weed out some of the more unpleasant ones. I know a lot of the other local electricians most of them are small one or two man shops and am on speaking terms with them. Just gets a little hectic sometimes trying to keep up with the phone calls, paperwork, etc. etc. that goes along with running your own business. I'd have a hard time going back to working for someone else again though!


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## big2bird

macmikeman said:


> You know I'd sorta give the unions a whole lot more support if they were ever to abandon their unfathomable support of all things un-American.


While I can't wait to see THAT list, I have to hit the rack. I am working 7 days a week all month, and am a little tired. Tomorrow folks. I bid you good night.


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## HARRY304E

eejack said:


> So fair enough, you and B4T take exception to being passed over for membership. I can understand and appreciate that. How about the rest?


All I can say is many got it good like I did,These days it is probably not as harsh in fact I don't think they could get away with it today with the 24/7 news media that is not all pro union these days.

Let me make it clear that I do not hate all the men who are in the unions,,There are bad eggs in every barrel.

What I do hate is the people who run the Unions because they will destroy the USA to get their way.

I do not believe that the majority of union members want that for one minute.,But from what I understand is that you guys vote for your leaders and those leaders have proven that they do not care about our freedom and are leading us all Union and non, down the road to Hell.


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## HARRY304E

big2bird said:


> While I can't wait to see THAT list, I have to hit the rack. I am working 7 days a week all month, and am a little tired. Tomorrow folks. I bid you good night.


Thanks for coming in today..:laughing:


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## D-Bo

big2bird said:


> Perhaps if you made a living wage, you too could afford some time off.


This is truly laughable. You make it sound like you choose your time off rather than have it forced on you


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## greenman

Since 1999, CUSW has been challenging the idea of what a union can be.
Run by members.


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## BBQ

big2bird said:


> Wow. Picketed jobs? Maybe we should abolish the first ammendment so we won't annoy you? :laughing:


You know that was not what he was saying.

What I believe he was pointing out is union members have a very documented history of hasting nonunion members and for aunion member to cry about a few anti-union posts on an internet forum is kind of ridiculous.

In other words, you dish it out, learn to take it as well.


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## BBQ

big2bird said:


> Once again I ask. Would you like to abolish the first ammendment? As an American, I have the right to protest anything I so choose.


But apparently you do not think that right extends to forum members posting their views.

Makes perfect sense.


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## BBQ

HARRY304E said:


> Whats wrong with the first amendment?:blink:





big2bird said:


> It appears to annoy some members here.


:laughing:

Man you are funny as hell, keep pulling out that first amendment while complaining about people exercising it.:laughing:


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## BBQ

stuiec said:


> Does anyone else see the irony here? :laughing:


:laughing:

It is so thick how could you miss it. :laughing:


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## BBQ

eejack said:


> Agreed. I just wonder at the reasoning why folks don't like unions.


I don't like unions because of the experiences I keep having with them here in MA and RI. I have worked many jobs that have been mixed, often we would be the only non-union contractor. I won't bother with details, I will just say it was enough to turn me off from the unions.


On the other hand I have no problem saying the unions are needed, have done great things in the past and my rate of pay is higher because of the unions.


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## McClary’s Electrical




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## chicken steve

I've very little problem with the premis of unions, until they become a burden on the taxpayer , or attempt to shut down our infastructure

~CS~


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## EBFD6

big2bird said:


> Let me ask MY first question. In California, where I have paid taxes for longer than I can remember, one of the largest contracts in State history to build a new Oakland Bay bridge has been awarded by Cal Trans to a CHINESE construction company.
> As a taxpayer, I am mad as hell. Now, the question/and be real.
> If I throw up a picket to protest this, while American workers are unemployed at record rates, would you blame me? Would you even encourage me as a fellow American worker?



Let me ask you a question.

In Massachusetts, where I have paid taxes for longer than I can remember, *MANY* contracts that my tax dollars pay for have project labor agreements that mandate union labor be used and discriminate against non-union companies and workers. As a tax payer, I am mad as hell.

If I throw up a picket to protest this, while American non-union workers are unemployed at record rates, would you blame me? Would you even encourage me as a fellow American worker?

I didn't think so!


----------



## EBFD6

big2bird said:


> Those issues would be decided by the General Contractor. You would have to ask him. His call.



Wrong, those issues would be decided for the general contractor by the unions. He will do what the unions tell him if he knows whats good for him.:whistling2:


----------



## chicken steve

EBFD6 said:


> In Massachusetts, where I have paid taxes for longer than I can remember, *MANY* contracts that my tax dollars pay for have project labor agreements that mandate union labor be used and discriminate against non-union companies and workers. As a tax payer, I am mad as hell.


are you sure it's not prevailing wage that's specified EB?

~CS~


----------



## BBQ

chicken steve said:


> are you sure it's not prevailing wage that's specified EB?
> 
> ~CS~


I doubt that is what he means


http://www.bizjournals.com/boston/p...or-longfellow-bridge-work-draws.html?page=all


http://www.cityofboston.gov/news/default.aspx?id=5103


http://articles.boston.com/2012-07-...or-agreements-nonunion-firms-highway-projects


----------



## electricmanscott

eejack said:


> Agreed. I just wonder at the reasoning why folks don't like unions. And I don't mean fairy tales about leaning on shovels or stories of someones sister's cousin's hairdresser knows a union guy, I mean honest open reasons.
> 
> We cannot fix anything unless we know what the problem is.


I've posted stories and pictures.


----------



## Southeast Power

Usually PLA contains some sort of a concession that lowers or removes out of the something the regular union agreement.


----------



## chicken steve

> “The very real practical effect of a PLA is to make the project off limits to the non-union industry,” said Greg Beeman, president of the Massachusetts Chapter of Associated Builders and Contractors, which represents nonunion contractors and suppliers that employ more than 24,000 workers. “The agreements drive up wages by 15 percent and the net effect is you have far fewer bidders, and therefore the project will cost more. PLAs have a chilling effect on the bidding process.”


i stand enlightened BBQ, thanx...

so why would any taxpayer wish to pay _more_ for this process (if one can call it that?)

~CS~


----------



## big2bird

BBQ said:


> But apparently you do not think that right extends to forum members posting their views.
> 
> Makes perfect sense.


This is a privately held entity. The first ammendment does NOT apply here. I know, I used to be a moderator on another forum. I reference the posting rules in this section.


----------



## chicken steve

maybe Nathan could start a free speech zone?

~CS~


----------



## big2bird

EBFD6 said:


> Wrong, those issues would be decided for the general contractor by the unions. He will do what the unions tell him if he knows whats good for him.:whistling2:


There are no such "rules." You would never be able to find/quote such a rule.


----------



## big2bird

D-Bo said:


> This is truly laughable. You make it sound like you choose your time off rather than have it forced on you


I do. With the exception of 1995, I have yet to be forced home. Why is that so hard to believe?


----------



## BBQ

big2bird said:


> This is a privately held entity. The first ammendment does NOT apply here. I know, I used to be a moderator on another forum. I reference the posting rules in this section.


You are right it does not apply to you or I here, it does apply to the site owener.

But that's not the point, you want to be able to state your veiw but want to silence others veiws. That makes you a hypocrite.


----------



## big2bird

BBQ said:


> On the other hand I have no problem saying the unions are needed, have done great things in the past and my rate of pay is higher because of the unions.


I agree.:thumbsup:


----------



## BBQ

jrannis said:


> Usually PLA contains some sort of a concession that lowers or removes out of the something the regular union agreement.


Yes, often a no strike, no picket agreement


----------



## big2bird

BBQ said:


> You are right it does not apply to you or I here, it does apply to the site owener.
> 
> But that's not the point, you want to be able to state your veiw but want to silence others veiws. That makes you a hypocrite.


Your so wrong. Perhaps you should re read this thread. All I ever asked for was a fair/non biased discussion.


----------



## chicken steve

BBQ said:


> You are right it does not apply to you or I here, it does apply to the site owener.
> 
> But that's not the point, you want to be able to state your veiw but want to silence others veiws. That makes you a hypocrite.


interesting how the free speech card is played when it works/ doesn't work for the individual

few seem to be able to rise above this

~CS~


----------



## big2bird

BBQ said:


> Yes, often a no strike, no picket agreement


Correct.


----------



## chicken steve

BBQ said:


> Yes, often a no strike, no picket agreement


cross my old black heart & promise, if i can bid....:jester:

~CS~


----------



## big2bird

EBFD6 said:


> Let me ask you a question.
> 
> In Massachusetts, where I have paid taxes for longer than I can remember, *MANY* contracts that my tax dollars pay for have project labor agreements that mandate union labor be used and discriminate against non-union companies and workers. As a tax payer, I am mad as hell.
> 
> If I throw up a picket to protest this, while American non-union workers are unemployed at record rates, would you blame me? Would you even encourage me as a fellow American worker?


Yes. Free speech is an American right.


----------



## BBQ

big2bird said:


> Your so wrong. Perhaps you should re read this thread. All I ever asked for was a fair/non biased discussion.


I have read the thread, you have been bitching about the 'union bashing' allowed on this forum and seem to want it stopped.


----------



## BBQ

big2bird said:


> Correct.


So in a nut shell....

Hire only union labor or the union will picket, causing job delays and cost overruns. 

That is the reality of it.


----------



## BBQ

big2bird said:


> Yes. Free speech is an American right.


Sure is, and it is my right to say things you don't like as long as I abide by the rules of this forum.


----------



## HARRY304E

BBQ said:


> So in a nut shell....
> 
> Hire only union labor or the union will picket, causing job delays and cost overruns.
> 
> That is the reality of it.



Job delays and cost overruns. ?:blink:

You never here that around here...:whistling2:


----------



## BBQ

HARRY304E said:


> Job delays and cost overruns. ?:blink:
> 
> You never here that around here...:whistling2:


:thumbsup:


Nope, never 

http://thetruthaboutplas.com/2010/06/29/the-most-infamous-pla-job-lessons-from-bostons-big-dig/


----------



## big2bird

BBQ said:


> You are right it does not apply to you or I here, it does apply to the site owener.
> 
> That makes you a hypocrite.


The only hypocracy, as I stated earlier, that I see, is the union posting guideline sticky above, versus what I have read on here.

If your willing to have an unbiased discussion about unions, I encourage you to state how you feel, or quote facts.


----------



## big2bird

BBQ said:


> Sure is, and it is my right to say things you don't like as long as I abide by the rules of this forum.


Correct.:thumbsup:


----------



## HARRY304E

big2bird said:


> The only hypocracy, as I stated earlier, that I see, is the union posting guideline sticky above, versus what I have read on here.
> 
> If your willing to have an unbiased discussion about unions, I encourage you to state how you feel, or quote facts.


I think he has made himself clear on what he thinks.


----------



## brian john

big2bird said:


> Wow. Picketed jobs? Maybe we should abolish the first ammendment so we won't annoy you? :laughing:
> 
> I see you are a moderator. I sense this "may" not be a fair fight/discussion.


I am would never picket but I have no problem with pickets when performed in a civil manner., but the CRAP SEIU has been pulling when picketing is IMO totally unacceptable.

My daughter’s first job out of college the building was being picketed by SEIU, she tries to enter the building and they get in her face yelling and generally harassing her. 

These old school tactics do NOTHING to promote the unions, they hurt us.

I have told several times the crap I put up with from unions when I was an helper on an all-union job and the BS I put up with when I first got in the union.

While we can say these were a few bad apples the union does little to rein them in.

I think the union strongly needs a positive front
A positive ad campaign
A policy that punishes members that are less that friendly to the men we need in our ranks and not as our enemies.
When the news crew shows up to the job site for promotional pictures on the finish of a new hospital or stadium how about we move the maggots to the back and let the more professional looking stand in front.
QUIT SUPPORTING ONE PARTY, business is smart enough to 50/50 or if they really like one candidate they hedge their bet at 60/40. The Dems know they have the unions in their pocket and the Dems say F’ the unions we got em’ let’s worry about the boy’s we don’t have.


----------



## big2bird

BBQ said:


> I have read the thread, you have been bitching about the 'union bashing' allowed on this forum and seem to want it stopped.


Nope. :no:All I want is equal time without being edited out because of the forum guidleines.


----------



## BBQ

big2bird said:


> The only hypocracy, as I stated earlier, that I see, is the union posting guideline sticky above, versus what I have read on here.
> 
> If your willing to have an unbiased discussion about unions, I encourage you to state how you feel, or quote facts.


Your definition of 'bashing' seems to include anything that is not union supporting.

So please post a link to the bashing you see that crosses forum rules.


----------



## HARRY304E

big2bird said:


> Nope. :no:All I want is equal time without being edited out because of the forum guidleines.


You have 35 posts have any been edited?


----------



## big2bird

BBQ said:


> Your definition of 'bashing' seems to include anything that is not union supporting.
> 
> So please post a link to the bashing you see that crosses forum rules.


There aren't any that cross the rules, except the rules themselves.


----------



## big2bird

HARRY304E said:


> You have 35 posts have any been edited?


Nope. SO far, so good.


----------



## big2bird

BBQ said:


> So in a nut shell....
> 
> Hire only union labor or the union will picket, causing job delays and cost overruns.
> 
> That is the reality of it.


I have not spoken for you, please do not speak for me.


----------



## HARRY304E

big2bird said:


> Nope. SO far, so good.


:thumbsup:


----------



## brian john

BBQ said:


> So in a nut shell....
> 
> Hire only union labor or the union will picket, causing job delays and cost overruns.
> 
> That is the reality of it.


And in the mantra of this topic, now that you have figured it out go away.:no::laughing::laughing::laughing:


----------



## wendon

So, who wins this argument? The non-unions or the leg-breakers??:laughing::laughing:


----------



## wendon

Just some interesting reads.

http://www.rightwingnews.com/democr...-property-damage-violence-finally-a-shooting/

http://www.capitalpress.com/dairy/djw-rubyridge-w-art-022412


----------



## wwilson174

MichiganElectrician said:


> Thanks for the post Nathan.
> 
> I agree that we should all respect each other. :thumbsup:
> 
> We are all just electricians trying to earn a living.
> 
> I'm a proud IBEW Local 58 member out of Detroit.
> 
> Anyone from Detroit knows that is quite a thing to say. Even those from other parts of the country know that the domestic auto industry is dying in Detroit.
> 
> I haven't worked in my own jurisdiction for quite some time. I'm a tramp by choice. I get treated better on the road than in my own local during these tough times.
> 
> We have over 1600 on the out of work list at this time. Mostly due to the state of the auto industry and the economy.
> 
> However the great thing about being an IBEW Electrician, is that even though there hasn't been much work in my own local for more years than I care to admit.
> 
> I can travel the country and just sign the book, wait my turn, and make the prevailing wage and benefit package wherever I go. At the same time earning benefits like I have worked for the same contractor for the 21 years I have been in the IBEW!
> 
> No interviews, resumes, phone calls, or BS!
> 
> Not to mention wherever I go in this great country of ours, many brothers in the same situation as myself are more than willing to help me out, and I help them out. Bottom line is that if your a brother your never alone.
> 
> That is just a small slice of the brotherhood.:thumbup:
> 
> :thumbsup:


 
Well said, sir!


----------



## McClary’s Electrical

wendon said:


> Just some interesting reads.
> 
> http://www.rightwingnews.com/democr...-property-damage-violence-finally-a-shooting/
> 
> http://www.capitalpress.com/dairy/djw-rubyridge-w-art-022412


 

Written By : Warner Todd Huston
_August 17, 2011_

Once again we see the un-American criminality of violence-prone union thugs, this time with the disgusting tale of the IBEW carrying on a years long intimidation campaign against a Toledo area, non-union electrical contractor which has progressed from mere harassment to now a shooting.
On August 10, the owner of King Electrical Services, John King, was shot in the arm with a small caliber pistol outside his home an act that has been the culmination of a years long union intimidation campaign by the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers (IBEW).
King has suffered multiple attacks on his business since 2006 when the IBEW decided that he _must_ unionize his workforce. His property has been damaged, tires flattened, his workers harassed, his home attacked, and harassing phone calls have followed him everywhere.
King also suffered attacks on his business back in the 1980s, too, but until last week it was a little less potentially lethal.
Last Wednesday, however, the attacks on Mr. King became much more serious when he was awakened late in the evening at his home in Monroe County, Michigan and saw that the motion lights in his driveway had come on. When he looked out his front window, he saw a figure near his SUV and went outside.
As soon as he got outside his front door, King yelled at the individual who was crouched down by King’s vehicle. As soon as King yelled, the suspect stood and, without hesitation, fired a shot at Mr. King.
Luckily for King, as he yelled, he also stumbled. If it weren’t for that, however, John King’s injuries might have been much, much worse. In fact, he might have been killed.​A stray criminal, you may say? Not union connection, you might wonder?
Hardly. The shooter had also scratched “Scab” on King’s SUV.
Now, I write about the criminal unions quite a lot, of course. I often get letters from law abiding union members — yes, there are a few here and there — upset that I am so merciless on their thuggish pals. But the fact is, the criminal behavior in this day and age is nearly exclusively coming from the unionistas. We don;t see business owners beating up union members. We don’t see management calling union members at their homes in the middle of the night harassing them. We don’t see businessmen shooting union members.
Sorry, but most of the criminality comes from unions these days. Until the rank and file get a handle on this violence and hatred coming from their fellows, they all will, _must_, be tarred with the same brush. After all, they are in tacit approval of the violence. If there are more law abiding members than there are criminals in unions, it’s about time they spoke up, ran for office in the union, and began to start acting like true Americans and not socialist thugs that are more interested in extortion and willing to resort to violence unless they get their way.
Sadly, there seems to be no way to be a union-lover _and be a true American_. Unionism is as anti-American as you can get. It is anti-capitalist, it is anti-individual freedom, it is pro-violence, and relies on un-democratic, collectivist means to their end.
So, I feel for you law-abiding unionistas, yes, but don’t come crying to me until you clean up your own house.
http://mgid.com/pnews/1132677/i/13083/pp/1/2/

http://mgid.com/pnews/1101602/i/13083/pp/2/2/
 
http://mgid.com/pnews/1102257/i/130...luZGV4Ni8=fvSMg==fwSMjkwfxSNmM1fySMjY5fzSNjkw


----------



## eejack

Seriously - who are you trying to convince?

Both sides.

As a union member I already know what the unions are about - none of the anti-union rhetoric spewed here will convince me or change my views. I can go and cherrypick articles, subscribe to paid to publish anti-union websites, read all the business sponsored anti-union/anti-worker stuff myself, so no point in regurgitating it here

As anti-union posters ( please don't pretend to be otherwise ) you will not be convinced of anything other than the delusions you already believe in. Like me, no matter what article I put up here you will discount it and discredit it.

So the two sides will never come together - it is impossible because one side is right and one side is unyielding.

What I don't understand, and what none of you folks seem to understand is why. I know why union folks are fervent unionism. 

I just don't get why you folks are so unabashedly anti union. It doesn't benefit you to get down on unions and honestly - all it does is hurt you.

So unless trolling unions is fun and a nice way to kill a few hours here and there, I don't get why you do it.

Enjoy.


----------



## wwilson174

eejack said:


> seriously - who are you trying to convince?
> 
> Both sides.
> 
> As a union member i already know what the unions are about - none of the anti-union rhetoric spewed here will convince me or change my views. I can go and cherrypick articles, subscribe to paid to publish anti-union websites, read all the business sponsored anti-union/anti-worker stuff myself, so no point in regurgitating it here
> 
> as anti-union posters ( please don't pretend to be otherwise ) you will not be convinced of anything other than the delusions you already believe in. Like me, no matter what article i put up here you will discount it and discredit it.
> 
> So the two sides will never come together - it is impossible because one side is right and one side is unyielding.
> 
> What i don't understand, and what none of you folks seem to understand is why. I know why union folks are fervent unionism.
> 
> I just don't get why you folks are so unabashedly anti union. It doesn't benefit you to get down on unions and honestly - all it does is hurt you.
> 
> So unless trolling unions is fun and a nice way to kill a few hours here and there, i don't get why you do it.
> 
> Enjoy.


 
envy!!!!


----------



## wendon

eejack said:


> Seriously - who are you trying to convince?
> 
> Both sides.
> 
> As a union member I already know what the unions are about - none of the anti-union rhetoric spewed here will convince me or change my views. I can go and cherrypick articles, subscribe to paid to publish anti-union websites, read all the business sponsored anti-union/anti-worker stuff myself, so no point in regurgitating it here
> 
> As anti-union posters ( please don't pretend to be otherwise ) you will not be convinced of anything other than the delusions you already believe in. Like me, no matter what article I put up here you will discount it and discredit it.
> 
> So the two sides will never come together - it is impossible because one side is right and one side is unyielding.
> 
> What I don't understand, and what none of you folks seem to understand is why. I know why union folks are fervent unionism.
> 
> I just don't get why you folks are so unabashedly anti union. It doesn't benefit you to get down on unions and honestly - all it does is hurt you.
> 
> So unless trolling unions is fun and a nice way to kill a few hours here and there, I don't get why you do it.
> 
> Enjoy.


I thought we had a nice argument going last night!!:laughing::laughing: I would imagine you consider yourself to be on the right side. What would be nice in this debate is if we could see some posts/links to articles that would paint the unions in a good light. Surely they're out there? You don't need to subscribe to any web sites, just google union harassment. Another thing that would be interesting is if someone would discredit these stories.


----------



## icefalkon

wendon said:


> I thought we had a nice argument going last night!!:laughing::laughing: I would imagine you consider yourself to be on the right side. What would be nice in this debate is if we could see some posts/links to articles that would paint the unions in a good light. Surely they're out there? You don't need to subscribe to any web sites, just google union harassment. Another thing that would be interesting is if someone would discredit these stories.


Well Wendon...many of the posts that I've been a part of have been respectful, non harassing, union discussions about the good that the IBEW does for the trade in general. You can search my posts here and generate your own opinion. However, my Brother EEJack has a valid point. What purpose does it serve to bash an organisation that does more to promote excellence in the trade than any other non union trade association in the United States.

No, not every union electrician is great, nor is every non union electrician a hack. It's about personal responsibility and pride in your work. 

We are proud IBEW electricians who believe in bettering our skills and putting the right foot forward each and every morning. Does every "Brother" believe this, absolutely not. Many are jaded, many have been screwed over, and some just never believed in it in the first place. But either way, you cannot deny the benefits, education, and quality of life that union electricians enjoy. 

Are all Union Electricians ruffians, criminals, and out to break knee's. Absolutely not. That is a strange stereotype...especially coming from non union electricians. That seems to be something that Big Business wants people to believe to further their own ends. 

I saw a discussion on here about Public Labor Agreements that I have to look for. What I read was completely misguided and false. Again, there are plenty of respectful discussions on here between both sides. You just have to look for them. 

Cheers,

Steve from NYC


----------



## eejack

wendon said:


> I thought we had a nice argument going last night!!:laughing::laughing: I would imagine you consider yourself to be on the right side. What would be nice in this debate is if we could see some posts/links to articles that would paint the unions in a good light. Surely they're out there? You don't need to subscribe to any web sites, just google union harassment. Another thing that would be interesting is if someone would discredit these stories.


A nice discourse is one thing, and I enjoy a good open discussion on improving things, unions, pipe bending, whatever.

It is an entirely different thing to constantly be berated, barraged and harangued with rhetoric. Every topic on this forum that unions get mentioned in attracts the same groups of posters, with the same articles, the same storys, the same gifs. 

That is not discussion, that is trolling, and monotonous.

Google ibew charity instead of union harassment. Or better yet, google anti-union lobbyists to see who is creating a lot of the 'news' you read.


----------



## Wirenuting

The concept of unions is good. The implementation of that concept can at times be lacking. 
The ability to come together for the common good is what it was all about in the beginning. 
There is a place for both sides, IMHO.

I want to be like Andrew Carnegie.
I want to become rich beyond belief, crushing all those who stand in my way, both union and non-union.

When I have achieved this, I will retire and give my money to those who deserve it the most. 
The common man who works on the bottom. 

Like Carnegie said, " Only thru education can the common man better himself". 
He then built libraries across the nation so that people can learn. 
He achieved his goal of giving his wealth away before his death. 

Can you see any one leaving such a legacy these days?


----------



## BBQ

eejack said:


> A nice discourse is one thing, and I enjoy a good open discussion on improving things, unions, pipe bending, whatever.
> 
> It is an entirely different thing to constantly be berated, barraged and harangued with rhetoric. Every topic on this forum that unions get mentioned in attracts the same groups of posters, with the same articles, the same storys, the same gifs.
> 
> That is not discussion, that is trolling, and monotonous.
> 
> Google ibew charity instead of union harassment. Or better yet, google anti-union lobbyists to see who is creating a lot of the 'news' you read.


Really, just tough chit, I have to deal with the same crap over and over in real life, it gets monotonous.


----------



## eejack

BBQ said:


> Really, just tough chit, I have to deal with the same crap over and over in real life, it gets monotonous.


If it is so monotonous, then why do you constantly come into threads whenever unions are mentioned and troll them?

Is it a hobby? A way of breaking the tedium?

Did you go out of your way to find things from....


> TheTruthAboutPLAs.com is a project of Associated Builders and Contractors designed to track and disseminate news and relevant information about the detrimental effects of government-mandated project labor agreements (PLAs).


Does posting fabrications from a known anti-union lobbying site make your day less dull?

I mean, why do it at all?

Just curious.


----------



## icefalkon

EBFD6 said:


> Let me ask you a question.
> 
> In Massachusetts, where I have paid taxes for longer than I can remember, *MANY* contracts that my tax dollars pay for have project labor agreements that mandate union labor be used and discriminate against non-union companies and workers. As a tax payer, I am mad as hell.
> 
> If I throw up a picket to protest this, while American non-union workers are unemployed at record rates, would you blame me? Would you even encourage me as a fellow American worker?
> 
> I didn't think so!


That is the purpose of a PLA. It it an agreement between parties to use Union Labor at "other than contract" rates. PLA's are formed by the organisation for which the PLA stands. If you as a non union contractor want to bid work, you know from the go that you can not participate in a PLA job. There are literally thousands of jobs that are NOT PLA agreements. Secondly, PLA's are normally enacted on projects where the construction was originally done with union labor and over the past generation has been done with non union labor. They are specifically designed to be beneficial to the client without too much loss from the working party...be it Electrician, Carpenter, Plumber, etc. There used to be price minimum that would warrant a "union job" vs a "non union job"...then it went to how much "new steel" went into the job.

However, those days are gone. As are the days of ANY contractor telling a GC where THEY are going to park, put their material, etc. That, I can tell you with 100% surety does not happen any longer. It's nice to remember the old days...but in all honesty, that don't happen anymore.

I don't take offense at the uninitiated coming down on us. Over the years, many of my own Brothers have caused these feelings. What many guys didn't realize was that most non union electricians would LOVE to have the benefits, educational opportunities, and feeling of belonging that we have. That caused animosity over the decades and this is what we deal with now. Non union electricians often think that we all think they're sub human, anti American workers. That is NOT the case. I promote education, I'm a General Foreman, Project Manager, and Instructor for the IBEW. My contractor RENTS me from the union. I am a basic worker and don't "ride the system", nor do I break knee's, nor do I sleep with the boss, nor do I think I'm better than every non union electrician out there. Fact of life is this...we ARE the working class. 

If you choose to be non union, so be it. I don't lump all non union electricians into the mutt category, nor should you guys automatically assume all IBEW electricians are pieces of dirt that would rather hide for 8 hours a day than make our contractor money. The guys that DO that stuff, simply don't survive. You can only hide so long before your co workers have enough of your crap and get rid of you. 

OK, end of tirade. Have a good evening.

Steve from NYC


----------



## big2bird

mcclary's electrical said:


> Written By : Warner Todd Huston
> _August 17, 2011_
> 
> Once again we see the un-American criminality of violence-prone union thugs, this time with the disgusting tale of the IBEW carrying on a years long intimidation campaign against a Toledo area, non-union electrical contractor which has progressed from mere harassment to now a shooting.
> On August 10, the owner of King Electrical Services, John King, was shot in the arm with a small caliber pistol outside his home an act that has been the culmination of a years long union intimidation campaign by the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers (IBEW).
> King has suffered multiple attacks on his business since 2006 when the IBEW decided that he _must_ unionize his workforce. His property has been damaged, tires flattened, his workers harassed, his home attacked, and harassing phone calls have followed him everywhere.
> King also suffered attacks on his business back in the 1980s, too, but until last week it was a little less potentially lethal.
> Last Wednesday, however, the attacks on Mr. King became much more serious when he was awakened late in the evening at his home in Monroe County, Michigan and saw that the motion lights in his driveway had come on. When he looked out his front window, he saw a figure near his SUV and went outside.
> As soon as he got outside his front door, King yelled at the individual who was crouched down by King’s vehicle. As soon as King yelled, the suspect stood and, without hesitation, fired a shot at Mr. King.
> Luckily for King, as he yelled, he also stumbled. If it weren’t for that, however, John King’s injuries might have been much, much worse. In fact, he might have been killed.​A stray criminal, you may say? Not union connection, you might wonder?
> Hardly. The shooter had also scratched “Scab” on King’s SUV.
> Now, I write about the criminal unions quite a lot, of course. I often get letters from law abiding union members — yes, there are a few here and there — upset that I am so merciless on their thuggish pals. But the fact is, the criminal behavior in this day and age is nearly exclusively coming from the unionistas. We don;t see business owners beating up union members. We don’t see management calling union members at their homes in the middle of the night harassing them. We don’t see businessmen shooting union members.
> Sorry, but most of the criminality comes from unions these days. Until the rank and file get a handle on this violence and hatred coming from their fellows, they all will, _must_, be tarred with the same brush. After all, they are in tacit approval of the violence. If there are more law abiding members than there are criminals in unions, it’s about time they spoke up, ran for office in the union, and began to start acting like true Americans and not socialist thugs that are more interested in extortion and willing to resort to violence unless they get their way.
> Sadly, there seems to be no way to be a union-lover _and be a true American_. Unionism is as anti-American as you can get. It is anti-capitalist, it is anti-individual freedom, it is pro-violence, and relies on un-democratic, collectivist means to their end.
> So, I feel for you law-abiding unionistas, yes, but don’t come crying to me until you clean up your own house.
> http://mgid.com/pnews/1132677/i/13083/pp/1/2/
> 
> http://mgid.com/pnews/1101602/i/13083/pp/2/2/
> 
> http://mgid.com/pnews/1102257/i/130...luZGV4Ni8=fvSMg==fwSMjkwfxSNmM1fySMjY5fzSNjkw


This is indeed a tragic occurrence, and the man will no doubt pay for it the rest of his life, as he should. 
If your posting this to make a point, then I cite the blind squirrel theory.


----------



## eejack

icefalkon said:


> That is the purpose of a PLA. ...


What most folks don't seem to get Steve, is the customer ( in this case Mass. ) wants the project done with union labor. If they didn't want it done with union labor there would be no reason to sign a PLA. While I as a union member like to believe they want a well trained skilled local workforce on the job I suspect that there may be other reasons.

Like avoiding having a chinese company come in and build a blessed big bridge in one of our major cities. Oops. 

It is a choice, by the customer. PLAs benefit both sides of the agreement.


----------



## big2bird

BBQ said:


> Really, just tough chit, I have to deal with the same crap over and over in real life, it gets monotonous.


I feel the same way about your posts. Do you have a valid point/arguement? Or are you simply going to flip the bird over and over to feel better?:laughing:


----------



## icefalkon

Not for nothing...when my grandfather came to the United States from Italy in 1940, he learned English, joined the United States Navy, and went BACK to Italy to kill Germans. He was a Ships Electrician. After the war, he was an electrician in the Brooklyn Navy Yard where he was organized by Harry Van Arsdale Jr. He, my father, and I have all been lifelong members of the IBEW and are damn proud of it. BUT one thing we're NOT...prejudiced against those who aren't initiated. One of things that many of us are involved with is the education of the masses who have skewed visions of what being a member of the IBEW means. Not just in NYC, but in many States. We aren't some exclusive "club". It's about working together for a better life for all of us. If an individual Local has poor representation...then change it. Go to meetings, vote, and change your situation. Everyone has a "gripe story"...hell..I do too. But you know what...it doesn't define me. Move on, do good work, and treat everyone...union or non union...how you want to be treated. If you were slighted because you weren't union by someone, know this..not ALL union members are assholes.

Steve from NYC


----------



## big2bird

big2bird said:


> Let me ask MY first question. In California, where I have paid taxes for longer than I can remember, one of the largest contracts in State history to build a new Oakland Bay bridge has been awarded by Cal Trans to a CHINESE construction company.
> As a taxpayer, I am mad as hell. Now, the question/and be real.
> If I throw up a picket to protest this, while American workers are unemployed at record rates, would you blame me? Would you even encourage me as a fellow American worker?


Not one of you has answered this very simple question.


----------



## icefalkon

big2bird said:


> Not one of you has answered this very simple question.


You have a damn good question there!

Here in NYC there is a similar project in the bid process that a certain GC..Tutor Perinni wanted to bring in an electrical contractor from China to do the work. Luckily that was squashed IMMEDIATELY. The City of New York will not allow this to happen and they are the Client. 

The Local in that area, along with the local politicians need to become involved and stop this from happening! The only way that will stop is if everyone...union AND non union stand up and say something about it. 

Steve from NYC


----------



## eejack

big2bird said:


> Not one of you has answered this very simple question.


I would walk that picket with you.

But you already knew that :thumbsup:


----------



## wendon

eejack said:


> What most folks don't seem to get Steve, is the customer ( in this case Mass. ) wants the project done with union labor. If they didn't want it done with union labor there would be no reason to sign a PLA. While I as a union member like to believe they want a well trained skilled local workforce on the job I suspect that there may be other reasons.
> 
> Like avoiding having a chinese company come in and build a blessed big bridge in one of our major cities. Oops.
> 
> It is a choice, by the customer. PLAs benefit both sides of the agreement.


Why are you so down on the Chinese!!:laughing::laughing: What are you going to do when they eventually own us??

On the PLA subject. If I'm not mistaken, the only ones who could work or even bid on a project like this would be a minority owned business, a union shop or something of that nature. Here's my question: where does the state get it's money from? From the taxpayers right? Now how can the state discriminate against a certain group of taxpayers and not let capitalism do it's work? For example, another one of the local electricians takes care of the electrical etc. on some of the rest areas. He asked me go to one of them and charge up the AC unit. He said to tack on about 30% more than what I'd normally charge because when he turns the bill in, if it seems too cheap, they get upset!! I just have a hard time understanding that mentality. How can things be fair in a free society if competition isn't allowed?


----------



## Wirenuting

icefalkon said:


> Not for nothing...when my grandfather came to the United States from Italy in 1940, he learned English, joined the United States Navy, and went BACK to Italy to kill Germans. He was a Ships Electrician. After the war, he was an electrician in the Brooklyn Navy Yard where he was organized by Harry Van Arsdale Jr. He, my father, and I have all been lifelong members of the IBEW and are damn proud of it. BUT one thing we're NOT...prejudiced against those who aren't initiated. One of things that many of us are involved with is the education of the masses who have skewed visions of what being a member of the IBEW means. Not just in NYC, but in many States. We aren't some exclusive "club". It's about working together for a better life for all of us. If an individual Local has poor representation...then change it. Go to meetings, vote, and change your situation. Everyone has a "gripe story"...hell..I do too. But you know what...it doesn't define me. Move on, do good work, and treat everyone...union or non union...how you want to be treated. If you were slighted because you weren't union by someone, know this..not ALL union members are assholes.
> 
> Steve from NYC


My Grandfather worked at the yards also from the late 30's . Right up till it closed.


----------



## icefalkon

Wirenuting said:


> My Grandfather worked at the yards also from the late 30's . Right up till it closed.


Get out of here! That's great man! I bet they knew each other!


----------



## wendon

big2bird said:


> Let me ask MY first question. In California, where I have paid taxes for longer than I can remember, one of the largest contracts in State history to build a new Oakland Bay bridge has been awarded by Cal Trans to a *union* construction company.
> As a taxpayer, I am mad as hell. Now, the question/and be real.
> If I throw up a picket to protest this, while *non-union* workers are unemployed at record rates, would you blame me? Would you even encourage me as a fellow American worker?


Change the scenario a little Bird. What would you think about a situation like this? These would even be fellow Americans that have families to feed and pay taxes etc. But not only would they not get the contract, they wouldn't even be allowed to bid on it!


----------



## eejack

wendon said:


> How can things be fair in a free society if competition isn't allowed?


The issue is complex, certainly, but in essence they want the job done, they want it done to a standard and in a time frame. PLAs assure the customer of those things.

They also assure the customer that the money is going to whatever groups are important - politically - to that project. Minority contractors for example.

You call it discrimination, but it is not. There is nothing stopping anyone from hiring union labor. If you want to build that stadium over there, sign on down the hall and compete with a good bid. You know now that your labor rate is the same as your competitors so you just have the be smarter.

As far as the mainland chinese are concerned.

I grew up with communism being enemy number one to this country. China is still communist.  them.  their products.  the companies that outsource their manufacturing over there.  the retailers that sell their goods. Don't get me started with their cheap labor - unions must give in to lower wages argument. Their workers are slaves. You cannot compete with slave labor, we should not support slave labor and we as a country should be promoting our own goods and services.


----------



## big2bird

wendon said:


> Change the scenario a little Bird. What would you think about a situation like this? These would even be fellow Americans that have families to feed and pay taxes etc. But not only would they not get the contract, they wouldn't even be allowed to bid on it!


This is now twice my question has been answered with a question. YOU first.


----------



## eejack

wendon said:


> Change the scenario a little Bird. What would you think about a situation like this? These would even be fellow Americans that have families to feed and pay taxes etc. But not only would they not get the contract, they wouldn't even be allowed to bid on it!


If there were a glut of union work ( I wish ) and a lot of unemployed non union labor, the halls would open their doors and bring in more workers. We actually have provisions for that scenario in our local's collective bargaining agreement.

If there were only enough jobs for say 10 workers and 20 needed work, then does it matter - 10 workers are still out of work.

In big2bird's scenario, those 20 workers don't get any work. Some government owned company ( remember chinese = communism ) is bringing over slave labor to work in our country and take all that money out of circulation.


----------



## big2bird

eejack said:


> If there were a glut of union work ( I wish ) and a lot of unemployed non union labor, the halls would open their doors and bring in more workers. We actually have provisions for that scenario in our local's collective bargaining agreement.
> 
> If there were only enough jobs for say 10 workers and 20 needed work, then does it matter - 10 workers are still out of work.
> 
> In big2bird's scenario, those 20 workers don't get any work. Some government owned company ( remember chinese = communism ) is bringing over slave labor to work in our country and take all that money out of circulation.


What pisses me off the most, is that the boss of Caltrans stated his main reason was the lack of skilled welders in this country. Note he did not say Union welders, he said skilled welders. If it's the last thing I do on earth, I will vote for any politician who cans this guys arse.


----------



## RIVETER

Nathan said:


> Hey Guys,
> 
> I want to make a quick post and address a few issues that have popped up on Electrician Talk recently. Specifically on the topic of Unions.
> 
> This site is dedicated to professional electricians and ALL those who work in the electrical industry. That's the topic. We ARE NOT a Union site. We do have a sub forum topic on Unions because it is relevant to a lot of electricians and we feel it's an important topic to cover. We want you to be able to come here and talk about unions issues if that's something that effects you. But attacking people who aren't in Unions or having a US vs. THEM attitude will not be allowed on this site.
> 
> Please take a moment and read through our Posting Rules and think this through. Are you willing to follow those basic rules of respecting other people and exchanging information with both union and non union electricians? If so then we are glad your here. If not then this probably isn't the site for you.
> 
> One last note: I think we've proven by having a union topic that we are very open to union members being here so this is not an anti-union post. *We just want everyone to respect each other.
> 
> *Thanks!* :thumbsup:
> *


I agree. Everyone who takes the time to study and to learn a trade is to be respected. I am UNION, but that does not mean that I disrespect the people who have learned the trade without the help of a UNION.


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## McClary’s Electrical

ELLENSBURG, Wash. -- In July 2009, two representatives of United Farm Workers walked into the office of Ruby Ridge Dairy in Pasco, Wash., and announced they had done a card check and were now representing the dairy's workforce.
"They told us we could not talk to our employees, that they knew violations were going on, that we must supply employees with potable water -- we were -- that they knew animal abuse had occurred and that we could not fire anyone for any reason," said **** Bengen, Ruby Ridge owner.
"They said their vice president would have us sign a memorandum of agreement the next day," Bengen said. "The whole experience was quite unnerving."
That night Bengen and his wife, Ruby, got on the Internet and found card checks are not the standard for unionization in Washington.
The next day UFW Vice President Erik Nicholson offered to get them an attorney when they wanted one before signing any agreement, Bengen said.
"We declined the offer and at that point he became very angry and literally declared war on us in front of several witnesses," Bengen said.
The Bengens sought help from the Washington Farm Bureau and had the Farm Employers Labor Service Group, a Sacramento labor service, explain the pros and cons of unionization to their employees.
The Bengens said they offered to hire the American Arbitration Association to interview each employee anonymously. If a majority wanted union representation, the Bengens would begin negotiations with the UFW. But if a majority did not want a union, the UFW would leave.
Nicholson refused that offer, and an offer for a secret ballot, Bengen said.
"At this point we were beginning to understand what Mr. Nicholson meant when he said, 'This is war,'" Bengen said.
Studying other UFW unionization efforts, the Bengens saw patterns of discrediting adversaries, media blitzes, pressuring suppliers, processors and lenders and driving wedges between employers and employees.
So the Bengens told their story to the media and their suppliers, processor, bank and friends.
On Aug. 12, 2009, several employees -- with the help of UFW -- sued Ruby Ridge. They alleged unlawful dismissal and a violation of wage laws. Bengen said they had been fired for misfeeding cows, stealing feed and medicine, ignoring safety procedures and falsifying records.
The Bengens hired an attorney. Next came work slowdowns, sabotaged equipment that resulted in poor quality milk and injury to animals, insubordination and stabbings of cows, Bengen said.
The Bengens fired more employees, who then joined the lawsuit. Others quit and claimed they were fired, Bengen said. He said he heard employees were being offered large sums of money to join the union.
"Several employees were threatened for not agreeing to join the UFW," Bengen said. "Ruby's life was threatened. One employee was chased, forced off the road, recovered control of his vehicle and outran his pursuers."
The Bengens decided they could not afford to fire more employees, but animals kept getting sick and injured and milk production kept declining.
"We were told the UFW tutored some of our cow feeders how to mess with rations to cause our cows to get sick," Bengen said.
They hired new feeders and early in 2011 sued the UFW, Nicholson and UFW representative Arturo Sepulveda for damages. The UFW then filed a so-called "anti-SLAPP" suit against the dairy, seeking protection against the dairy's suit. SLAPP is an acronym for Washington's Act Limiting Strategic Lawsuits Against Public Participation law, which is aimed at protecting individuals' free expression by rejecting frivolous lawsuits filed against them.
"We were required to produce clear and convincing evidence without depositions or the usual evidence-gathering procedures," Bengen said. "How this SLAPP procedure got through the Legislature is beyond me. It deprives me of due process."
A judge ruled the Bengens had clear and convincing evidence in several instances. The UFW appealed and an appellate court upheld the lower court.
"We are now waiting to see if the UFW appeals that decision to the full court," Bengen told a Washington Farm Labor Association conference at Central Washington University.
"For the UFW it appears the end justifies the means," Bengen told his audience.
Others blindly follow the UFW with little or no direct knowledge of a situation, he said.
"This country has big problems, in part, because too many of us are willing to say that the struggle between right and wrong is not worth the trouble or expense," Bengen said. "That is not in my DNA and should not be in yours."


----------



## icefalkon

mcclary's electrical said:


> ELLENSBURG, Wash. -- In July 2009, two representatives of United Farm Workers walked into the office of Ruby Ridge Dairy in Pasco, Wash., and announced they had done a card check and were now representing the dairy's workforce.
> "They told us we could not talk to our employees, that they knew violations were going on, that we must supply employees with potable water -- we were -- that they knew animal abuse had occurred and that we could not fire anyone for any reason," said **** Bengen, Ruby Ridge owner.
> "They said their vice president would have us sign a memorandum of agreement the next day," Bengen said. "The whole experience was quite unnerving."
> That night Bengen and his wife, Ruby, got on the Internet and found card checks are not the standard for unionization in Washington.
> The next day UFW Vice President Erik Nicholson offered to get them an attorney when they wanted one before signing any agreement, Bengen said.
> "We declined the offer and at that point he became very angry and literally declared war on us in front of several witnesses," Bengen said.
> The Bengens sought help from the Washington Farm Bureau and had the Farm Employers Labor Service Group, a Sacramento labor service, explain the pros and cons of unionization to their employees.
> The Bengens said they offered to hire the American Arbitration Association to interview each employee anonymously. If a majority wanted union representation, the Bengens would begin negotiations with the UFW. But if a majority did not want a union, the UFW would leave.
> Nicholson refused that offer, and an offer for a secret ballot, Bengen said.
> "At this point we were beginning to understand what Mr. Nicholson meant when he said, 'This is war,'" Bengen said.
> Studying other UFW unionization efforts, the Bengens saw patterns of discrediting adversaries, media blitzes, pressuring suppliers, processors and lenders and driving wedges between employers and employees.
> So the Bengens told their story to the media and their suppliers, processor, bank and friends.
> On Aug. 12, 2009, several employees -- with the help of UFW -- sued Ruby Ridge. They alleged unlawful dismissal and a violation of wage laws. Bengen said they had been fired for misfeeding cows, stealing feed and medicine, ignoring safety procedures and falsifying records.
> The Bengens hired an attorney. Next came work slowdowns, sabotaged equipment that resulted in poor quality milk and injury to animals, insubordination and stabbings of cows, Bengen said.
> The Bengens fired more employees, who then joined the lawsuit. Others quit and claimed they were fired, Bengen said. He said he heard employees were being offered large sums of money to join the union.
> "Several employees were threatened for not agreeing to join the UFW," Bengen said. "Ruby's life was threatened. One employee was chased, forced off the road, recovered control of his vehicle and outran his pursuers."
> The Bengens decided they could not afford to fire more employees, but animals kept getting sick and injured and milk production kept declining.
> "We were told the UFW tutored some of our cow feeders how to mess with rations to cause our cows to get sick," Bengen said.
> They hired new feeders and early in 2011 sued the UFW, Nicholson and UFW representative Arturo Sepulveda for damages. The UFW then filed a so-called "anti-SLAPP" suit against the dairy, seeking protection against the dairy's suit. SLAPP is an acronym for Washington's Act Limiting Strategic Lawsuits Against Public Participation law, which is aimed at protecting individuals' free expression by rejecting frivolous lawsuits filed against them.
> "We were required to produce clear and convincing evidence without depositions or the usual evidence-gathering procedures," Bengen said. "How this SLAPP procedure got through the Legislature is beyond me. It deprives me of due process."
> A judge ruled the Bengens had clear and convincing evidence in several instances. The UFW appealed and an appellate court upheld the lower court.
> "We are now waiting to see if the UFW appeals that decision to the full court," Bengen told a Washington Farm Labor Association conference at Central Washington University.
> "For the UFW it appears the end justifies the means," Bengen told his audience.
> Others blindly follow the UFW with little or no direct knowledge of a situation, he said.
> "This country has big problems, in part, because too many of us are willing to say that the struggle between right and wrong is not worth the trouble or expense," Bengen said. "That is not in my DNA and should not be in yours."


You do realize that this is HIS side of the story right? There are plenty of markers within this story that hold truth, but much that also makes you scratch your head and go...um...that's not what happens at all. 

This man had an audience that was going to listen to whatever fabricated story HIS attorney told him to say. 

Again, I find it interesting how prejudice people can be. It's sad really. This is like saying ALL Asians do good at math, all Jews make the best doctors, and all blacks and hispnics are criminals...because of a few that make the papers, automatically ALL in that class share the stigma. McClary, you are using a finite example....if true...to pack ALL unions into a bag of illegal poor behavior. 

Another surprising thing here is the fact that you are an electrician who is doing this. If you can research THIS, how can you NOT find out all the wonderful things various IBEW locals do for communities:

http://www.ibew364.org/Events/

http://www.ibew725.org/userctl.cfm?PageContentTypeID=108&PageContentID=247

http://www.sos.wa.gov/charities/search_detail.aspx?charity_id=22249

Just a few of the over 200,000 hits that IBEW Charities called up! 

Now you can say that "oohhhh...all unions MUST be bad...look at what the welders did"...however, an intelligent man will also read this and say..."hmm interesting...I wonder what the other side of the story is"...

But no, you choose to reiterate an example of an story dripping with disgust for organized labor in general. I don't want to hear that you, as an owner, must be concerned over things like this. I myself was an owner, and can tell you without a doubt that if anyone from the IBEW came into a shop and did what this man claims happened there would be lawsuits until the end of time. 

I'm not saying that what these two Stewards did was right, nor am I saying that things like this did not happen in the past. Hell, I'm from NYC...our organizing methods were harsh indeed back in the 1950's and were legendary in the IBEW back in those days. 

But those days are not today. There are laws that ARE followed and are STRICTLY enforced relating to all union activities. 

My question to you is this...why? Why do YOU lump all organized labor into a box labeled corrupt, thuggish, uneducated, and evil? What was done to YOU for this to be a prevailing thought process? I can go off and list the number of actions by non organized contractors that would blow your mind with the illegal practices they participate in. The wrong things they do to their employees. Do you treat your employees like cattle, do you not give them time for lunch, do you continually berate them for being a different ethnicity? I hope not...but if I thought as you seem to think...then yes...you're one of them. 

My point is this...throwing an example of poor practice out into a group of people who obviously don't follow or subscribe to those actions...and lumping all members of a trade into a box is prejudice. 

Please note also that there was not ONE IBEW electrician mentioned in that article. So, what does that have to do with US I ask you?

Thanks,

Steve from NYC


----------



## Wirenuting

icefalkon said:


> Get out of here! That's great man! I bet they knew each other!


The Brooklyn yard was a big place. Over 10k people in its hay day. But you never know if they met. 
He lived out in Sheepshead Bay and owned a small beach at the end of his street. He had a food stand there. He sold the food and my grandmother gave it for free to all the kids. LoL


----------



## chicken steve

mcclary's electrical said:


> ELLENSBURG, Wash. -- In July 2009, two representatives of United Farm Workers walked into the office of Ruby Ridge Dairy in Pasco, Wash., *and announced they had done a card check* and were now representing the dairy's workforce.
> 
> 
> 
> "
> 
> 
> this one line is probably the _most_ relevant McClary
> 
> this newly legislated Employee Free Choice Act becomes somewhat Orwellian in it's execution here....
> 
> i think i've problems with it, any of you U guys here agree?
> 
> ~CS~
Click to expand...


----------



## EBFD6

eejack said:


> What most folks don't seem to get Steve, is the customer ( in this case Mass. ) wants the project done with union labor. If they didn't want it done with union labor there would be no reason to sign a PLA. While I as a union member like to believe they want a well trained skilled local workforce on the job I suspect that there may be other reasons.
> 
> Like avoiding having a chinese company come in and build a blessed big bridge in one of our major cities. Oops.
> 
> It is a choice, by the customer. PLAs benefit both sides of the agreement.


Wrong, the customers *the taxpayers of Massachusetts* do not want the project to be done using union only labor, driving up the costs of construction. 

The *politicians* who make the rules and spend everyone else's money are the ones who sign the PLA's. It is their way to payback the unions for all the campaign contributions, nothing more. The want to get re-elected and want the tax payer's to foot the bill.

It has nothing to do with the skill level of the unions. There is no difference (regardless of the propaganda they feed you down at the hall) between union and non-union shops when you get to the size of company that is doing multi-million dollar projects. This superiority complex that the union has thinking they are the only ones skilled enough to do this work and the rest of us are just a bunch of retards that can't even tie our own shoes in the morning is the reason why many of us have such a distaste for the unions. That and all the thuggery and corruption that doesn't exist


----------



## BBQ

eejack said:


> What most folks don't seem to get Steve, is the customer ( in this case Mass. ) wants the project done with union labor. If they didn't want it done with union labor there would be no reason to sign a PLA.


I have tried to treat all in this thread with respect, I have tried to be honest.

So how about you try doing the same? 

You know as well as I do, (or you would if you grew up in this area) why the project went PLA and why people 'have a reason' to sign the PLA.

It is very obvious,

1) Favors by politicians to please the unions

2) Fear of protests and pickets slowing the job down if it did not go union.

We are just starting up a large project just outside of Boston, it will be a mixed job and already the union sabre-rattling has begun. No doubt the job will end up going to the 'Two Gate System' before it is over, one gate for non-union and another gate for union and the union can only picket the union gate.

It gets (in your words) monotonous.


----------



## chicken steve

well it's human nauture to pull one's self up by pulling another down

which is what i see the dispute really about

at the end of the day, we're _all_ blue collars out there

it's the white collars that traditionally and historically have tried to impose control on us all

so you see, all this _divide and separate_ stuff we're reading is social engineering from those sources on high, they want us to sqaubble like Orwell's animal farm over minutia , a grandious deiversion ,because it's all in their back pocket

when we let these small potatoes pass for the concept of collectivism, where the inflatable rats are placed on 1600 Penn ave against the free traitors, the corporatists, the lobbyists that sell us ALL out count me in

~CS~


----------



## 19kilosparky984

eejack said:


> I grew up with communism being enemy number one to this country. China is still communist.  them.  their products.  the companies that outsource their manufacturing over there.  the retailers that sell their goods. Don't get me started with their cheap labor - unions must give in to lower wages argument. Their workers are slaves. You cannot compete with slave labor, we should not support slave labor and we as a country should be promoting our own goods and services.


Well you can blame the unions for jobs being shipped overseas. Its union greed. Why would I keep my business here,get taxed to death and have to pay someone more then they are worth?

Yea raise taxes on the so called rich,vote for that share the wealth, hopey changey nonsense and see how many more jobs go to china.


----------



## eejack

EBFD6 said:


> Wrong, the customers *the taxpayers of Massachusetts* do not want the project to be done using union only labor, driving up the costs of construction.
> 
> The *politicians* who make the rules and spend everyone else's money are the ones who sign the PLA's. It is their way to payback the unions for all the campaign contributions, nothing more. The want to get re-elected and want the tax payer's to foot the bill.
> 
> It has nothing to do with the skill level of the unions. There is no difference (regardless of the propaganda they feed you down at the hall) between union and non-union shops when you get to the size of company that is doing multi-million dollar projects. This superiority complex that the union has thinking they are the only ones skilled enough to do this work and the rest of us are just a bunch of retards that can't even tie our own shoes in the morning is the reason why many of us have such a distaste for the unions. That and all the thuggery and corruption that doesn't exist


Now everyone, this is a perfect example of a post that contributes nothing at all, derides unionism, ignores facts and establishes new 'facts' simply by declaration.

It has it all - union labor is expensive, it is not good labor, non union are retards, thuggery, corruption, paybacks, propaganda with a bunch of insults thrown in for seasoning. It is an abstract from a fairy tale.

The best part is the poster is powerless to do anything about all this because even though he is a taxpayer, he is incapable of voting out the corrupt politicians who do all this evilness because of the government money being funneled into the unions through PLAs. That is the point he his deftly trying to make. The only thing he left off was his heroic struggle to right the wrongs...

Now, even though I could spend the time and energy to dispute every point in his post, could calmly and evenly show him how he is mistaken or been mislead we all know, gentle readers, how little credence my post will have to him. It will be summarily disregarded and at the same time cherrypicked for later use. A snippet of it used. Some line yanked out of context to prove a point or to be argued about.

So this is not discussion. Not a polite give and take of contrary ideas to establish some common ground to build from. What then is it I ask?


----------



## eejack

19kilosparky984 said:


> Well you can blame the unions for jobs being shipped overseas. Its union greed. Why would I keep my business here,get taxed to death and have to pay someone more then they are worth?
> 
> Yea raise taxes on the so called rich,vote for that share the wealth, hopey changey nonsense and see how many more jobs go to china.


Sure, that is entirely on the backs of the unions. That makes complete sense. Just ignore wall street's influence on things. Ignore the push to 'globalisation'. Ignore the slave labor conditions in China. Ignore their lack of environmental laws. Ignore EVERY OTHER FACTOR except unions.

Yes, why would you keep your business here when you can hire ******* at 2 dollars a day, dump benzene waste in the rivers, use cheap materials and china's massively subsidized supply chain and make an extra ten cents a unit?


----------



## eejack

BBQ said:


> I have tried to treat all in this thread with respect, I have tried to be honest.
> 
> So how about you try doing the same?


Okay. Why don't the non union companies hire union labor?

Seriously.

I have heard in this thread declarations that the labor is equivalent.
We both 'know' that the customer is willing to pay the labor rate.
It would make any bidding more competitive.
Any large shop would have zero problem being organized.

So, why don't they hire union labor.


----------



## chicken steve

actually some jobs _can't _refuse union labor eejack, it was how i met my first 'salt'.....~CS~


----------



## McClary’s Electrical

eejack said:


> So, why don't they hire union labor.


As a whole ( with no way to prove this) imo, union workers are slower, less productive winers.


----------



## eejack

mcclary's electrical said:


> ELLENSBURG, Wash. -- In July 2009, two representatives of United Farm Workers walked into the office of Ruby Ridge Dairy in Pasco, Wash., and announced they had done a card check and were now representing the dairy's workforce.


The other side of the story.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/01/18/937229/-Ruby-Ridge-threatens-to-sue-workers-UFW

So your hero dairy owner fired folks for talking about joining a union.


----------



## McClary’s Electrical

chicken steve said:


> well it's human nauture to pull one's self up by pulling another down
> 
> which is what i see the dispute really about
> 
> at the end of the day, we're all blue collars out there
> 
> it's the white collars that traditionally and historically have tried to impose control on us all
> 
> so you see, all this divide and separate stuff we're reading is social engineering from those sources on high, they want us to sqaubble like Orwell's animal farm over minutia , a grandious deiversion ,because it's all in their back pocket
> 
> when we let these small potatoes pass for the concept of collectivism, where the inflatable rats are placed on 1600 Penn ave against the free traitors, the corporatists, the lobbyists that sell us ALL out count me in
> 
> ~CS~


Holy smokes this makes alot of sense Steve, but corporate America as a whole is not smart enough to pull this off. Thats about as silly as saying 9/11 was an inside job.


----------



## icefalkon

EBFD6 said:


> Wrong, the customers *the taxpayers of Massachusetts* do not want the project to be done using union only labor, driving up the costs of construction.
> 
> The *politicians* who make the rules and spend everyone else's money are the ones who sign the PLA's. It is their way to payback the unions for all the campaign contributions, nothing more. The want to get re-elected and want the tax payer's to foot the bill.
> 
> It has nothing to do with the skill level of the unions. There is no difference (regardless of the propaganda they feed you down at the hall) between union and non-union shops when you get to the size of company that is doing multi-million dollar projects. This superiority complex that the union has thinking they are the only ones skilled enough to do this work and the rest of us are just a bunch of retards that can't even tie our own shoes in the morning is the reason why many of us have such a distaste for the unions. That and all the thuggery and corruption that doesn't exist


With all due respect. You have no clue what you are talking about. And by no clue I mean absolute lack of information or knowledge for the subject to which you are speaking about. 

What's the biggest firm you have ever worked for EBFD6? Do you have any idea what goes into a mega project? No, that's not a fair question. I know you don't. 

I'll put two shops that I have personally worked for that do not only PLA work, but builds 50+ story building out of the ground, as well as another firm I worked for out west that's the largest general contractor in the world who is a direct hire for the IBEW. 

Large projects require an enormous amount of training. I'm not talking you sitting through OSHA 10 here, I'm talking projects where every man must have confined space, every supervising Foreman must have OSHA 30, and every man on the job must be scaffold trained and that's just for starters! Now lets move onto the amount of NPL that goes into a job this size and the amount of money coordination costs. Do you have any idea what it takes to coordinate prints that number in the THOUSANDS? No, unfair question again. By the way...NPL means Non Productive Labor. Foremen, Project Managers, Engineers, etc.

How about this, when was the last time you even SAW 6" conduit going in? How about this, what's your skill level with high voltage cable and splicing? How about working on 100' lifts, or the installation of manufacturer specific high voltage equipment? Hmmm...I think that's going to be an unfair question again also. The union isn't the only entity that trains their employee's. The shop I am presently working for, as well as my last one BOTH provided employee training to supervision and field personnel. We have 52 engineers in the company I'm at now and all we do is big work. We have, at any given point...250 field electricians and this company periodically brings vendors in to train our guys. We don't look at a job under $25 Million, and to say that there is no difference in the skill level on these jobs, you sir...are talking out of your ass. There are many different types of electricians in the world...from data and technical, to residential, commercial, and deck workers. Each has a set of skills that is enormously different from the other. I wouldn't put a deck guy in a million dollar home, and unless I had a death wish, I wouldn't put a residential electrician on an enormous deck job. Safety, learning curve, and base experience are the markers of success. Not WHO you pay off... What kind of ignorance comes out with things like that? This isn't 1970! 

Now lets move to your point about unions "driving up the cost of the job". REALLY? That's strange, because if you look at the direct competition from here and overseas that is going on in construction in America, and read anything BUT Republican rags, you would know this to be false. This has nothing to do with propaganda. I for one did NOT drink the Kool-Aid. That's my biggest problem. What I do is stay on top of my trade. I stay on top of my job numbers, and am informed as to what is going on in the construction world..not just my trade, but related trades as well. 

The fact of the matter is that union tradesmen do NOT in fact raise job costs. Jobs are done more efficiently, productivity is up across the country, and job site accidents are down. These aren't "union numbers", or "union propaganda" these are numbers put out by OSHA and the Department of Labor. Oh wait..unions must have THEM paid off as well right? Just like the other poster stirring the pot had to say. 

DO you have any idea how much red tape we have to go through to make sure corruption does NOT happen? How much training? No...of course you don't! We are watched incessantly as to what we do, what monies are collected, what we bill each month, and all your T's better be crossed and your I's better be dotted or you DON"T GET PAID. There are so many Agencies involved with anti-corruption that there is a directory for it! But would you know that in your anti-union mindset....no...I don't expect there's any room for that knowledge in there now is there?

I don't mean to be condescending, however your personal experience is limited. Thus being limited I can't really blame you for your statements...except for the fact that you type them with such vehemence. Reading your post for the third time all I get the impression of is Archie Bunker sitting there making ridiculous statements about everything...as the world goes by. 

Grow up.

Respectfully,

Steve from NYC


----------



## eejack

mcclary's electrical said:


> As a whole ( with no way to prove this) imo, union workers are slower, less productive winers.


I'll give you a 1/10. I would rank it higher but you missed a thug reference.


----------



## McClary’s Electrical

icefalkon said:


> With all due respect. You have no clue what you are talking about. And by no clue I mean absolute lack of information or knowledge for the subject to which you are speaking about.
> 
> What's the biggest firm you have ever worked for EBFD6? Do you have any idea what goes into a mega project? No, that's not a fair question. I know you don't.
> 
> I'll put two shops that I have personally worked for that do not only PLA work, but builds 50+ story building out of the ground, as well as another firm I worked for out west that's the largest general contractor in the world who is a direct hire for the IBEW.
> 
> Large projects require an enormous amount of training. I'm not talking you sitting through OSHA 10 here, I'm talking projects where every man must have confined space, every supervising Foreman must have OSHA 30, and every man on the job must be scaffold trained. Now lets move onto the amount of NPL that goes into a job this size and the amount of money coordination costs. Do you have any idea what it takes to coordinate prints that number in the THOUSANDS? No, unfair question again. By the way...NPL means Non Productive Labor. Foremen, Project Managers, Engineers, etc.
> 
> How about this, when was the last time you even SAW 6" conduit going in? How about this, what's your skill level with high voltage cable and splicing? Hmmm...I think that's going to be an unfair question again also. The union isn't the only entity that trains their employee's. The shop I am presently working for, as well as my last one BOTH provided employee training to supervision and field personnel. We have 52 engineers in the company I'm at now and all we do is big work. We have, at any given point...250 field electricians and this company periodically brings vendors in to train our guys. We don't look at a job under $25 Million, and to say that there is no difference in the skill level on these jobs, you sir...are talking out of your ass. There are many different types of electricians in the world...from data and technical, to residential, commercial, and deck workers. Each has a set of skills that is enormously different from the other. I wouldn't put a deck guy in a million dollar home, and unless I had a death wish, I wouldn't put a residential electrician on an enormous deck job. Safety, learning curve, and base experience are the markers of success. Not WHO you pay off? What kind of ignorance comes out with things like that? This isn't 1970!
> 
> Now lets move to your point about unions "driving up the cost of the job". REALLY? That's strange, because if you look at the direct competition from here and overseas that is going on in construction in America, and read anything BUT Republican rags, you would know this to be false. This has nothing to do with propaganda. I for one did NOT drink the Kool-Aid. That's my biggest problem. What I do is stay on top of my trade. I stay on top of my job numbers, and am informed as to what is going on in the construction world..not just my trade, but related trades as well.
> 
> The fact of the matter is that union tradesmen do NOT in fact raise job costs. Jobs are done more efficiently, productivity is up across the country, and job site accidents are down. These aren't "union numbers", or "union propaganda" these are numbers put out by OSHA and the Department of Labor. Oh wait..unions must have THEM paid off as well right? Just like the other poster stirring the pot had to say.
> 
> DO you have any idea how much red tape we have to go through to make sure corruption does NOT happen? How much training? No...of course you don't! We are watched incessantly as to what we do, what monies are collected, what we bill each month, and all your T's better be crossed and your I's better be dotted or you DON"T GET PAID. There are so many Agencies involved with anti-corruption that there is a directory for it! But would you know that in your anti-union mindset....no...I don't expect there's any room for that knowledge in there now is there?
> 
> I don't mean to be condescending, however your personal experience is limited. Thus being limited I can't really blame you for your statements...except for the fact that you type them with such vehemence. Reading your post for the third time all I get the impression of is Archie Bunker sitting there making ridiculous statements about everything...as the world goes by.
> 
> Grow up.
> 
> Respectfully,
> 
> Steve from NYC


The arrogant nature of this post is a brilliant display of why the nonunion general public does not like unions as a whole. And then you end you rant with "respectfully" after taking sucker shots at him through your entire post. Did you think that would be imoressive?


----------



## big2bird

mcclary's electrical said:


> As a whole ( with no way to prove this) imo, union workers are slower, less productive winers.


I liken this comment to "Ford is slower than Chevy."


----------



## big2bird

19kilosparky984 said:


> Well you can blame the unions for jobs being shipped overseas. Its union greed.


I'm sorry. Are they constructing buildings in China, and shipping them over here? I missed that, except for that bridge in Oakland. They are building that on site.

Maybe if all the non union construction jobs go Chinese, you guys will rethink your posistion.:thumbsup:


----------



## wendon

eejack said:


> Now everyone, this is a perfect example of a post that contributes nothing at all, derides unionism, ignores facts and establishes new 'facts' simply by declaration.
> 
> It has it all - union labor is expensive, it is not good labor, non union are retards, thuggery, corruption, paybacks, propaganda with a bunch of insults thrown in for seasoning. It is an abstract from a fairy tale.
> 
> The best part is the poster is powerless to do anything about all this because even though he is a taxpayer, he is incapable of voting out the corrupt politicians who do all this evilness because of the government money being funneled into the unions through PLAs. That is the point he his deftly trying to make. The only thing he left off was his heroic struggle to right the wrongs...
> 
> Now, even though I could spend the time and energy to dispute every point in his post, could calmly and evenly show him how he is mistaken or been mislead we all know, gentle readers, how little credence my post will have to him. It will be summarily disregarded and at the same time cherrypicked for later use. A snippet of it used. Some line yanked out of context to prove a point or to be argued about.
> 
> So this is not discussion. Not a polite give and take of contrary ideas to establish some common ground to build from. What then is it I ask?


Didn't you just, in a nice way, call him an ignorant ******?


----------



## HARRY304E

icefalkon said:


> With all due respect. You have no clue what you are talking about. And by no clue I mean absolute lack of information or knowledge for the subject to which you are speaking about.
> 
> What's the biggest firm you have ever worked for EBFD6? Do you have any idea what goes into a mega project? No, that's not a fair question. I know you don't.
> 
> I'll put two shops that I have personally worked for that do not only PLA work, but builds 50+ story building out of the ground, as well as another firm I worked for out west that's the largest general contractor in the world who is a direct hire for the IBEW.
> 
> Large projects require an enormous amount of training. I'm not talking you sitting through OSHA 10 here, I'm talking projects where every man must have confined space, every supervising Foreman must have OSHA 30, and every man on the job must be scaffold trained and that's just for starters! Now lets move onto the amount of NPL that goes into a job this size and the amount of money coordination costs. Do you have any idea what it takes to coordinate prints that number in the THOUSANDS? No, unfair question again. By the way...NPL means Non Productive Labor. Foremen, Project Managers, Engineers, etc.
> 
> How about this, when was the last time you even SAW 6" conduit going in? How about this, what's your skill level with high voltage cable and splicing? How about working on 100' lifts, or the installation of manufacturer specific high voltage equipment? Hmmm...I think that's going to be an unfair question again also. The union isn't the only entity that trains their employee's. The shop I am presently working for, as well as my last one BOTH provided employee training to supervision and field personnel. We have 52 engineers in the company I'm at now and all we do is big work. We have, at any given point...250 field electricians and this company periodically brings vendors in to train our guys. We don't look at a job under $25 Million, and to say that there is no difference in the skill level on these jobs, you sir...are talking out of your ass. There are many different types of electricians in the world...from data and technical, to residential, commercial, and deck workers. Each has a set of skills that is enormously different from the other. I wouldn't put a deck guy in a million dollar home, and unless I had a death wish, I wouldn't put a residential electrician on an enormous deck job. Safety, learning curve, and base experience are the markers of success. Not WHO you pay off... What kind of ignorance comes out with things like that? This isn't 1970!
> 
> Now lets move to your point about unions "driving up the cost of the job". REALLY? That's strange, because if you look at the direct competition from here and overseas that is going on in construction in America, and read anything BUT Republican rags, you would know this to be false. This has nothing to do with propaganda. I for one did NOT drink the Kool-Aid. That's my biggest problem. What I do is stay on top of my trade. I stay on top of my job numbers, and am informed as to what is going on in the construction world..not just my trade, but related trades as well.
> 
> The fact of the matter is that union tradesmen do NOT in fact raise job costs. Jobs are done more efficiently, productivity is up across the country, and job site accidents are down. These aren't "union numbers", or "union propaganda" these are numbers put out by OSHA and the Department of Labor. Oh wait..unions must have THEM paid off as well right? Just like the other poster stirring the pot had to say.
> 
> DO you have any idea how much red tape we have to go through to make sure corruption does NOT happen? How much training? No...of course you don't! We are watched incessantly as to what we do, what monies are collected, what we bill each month, and all your T's better be crossed and your I's better be dotted or you DON"T GET PAID. There are so many Agencies involved with anti-corruption that there is a directory for it! But would you know that in your anti-union mindset....no...I don't expect there's any room for that knowledge in there now is there?
> 
> I don't mean to be condescending, however your personal experience is limited. Thus being limited I can't really blame you for your statements...except for the fact that you type them with such vehemence. Reading your post for the third time all I get the impression of is Archie Bunker sitting there making ridiculous statements about everything...as the world goes by.
> 
> Grow up.
> 
> Respectfully,
> 
> Steve from NYC


There are many Non-Union Electrical firms in Massachusetts that can handle all of the above stated work,And have all of the training mentioned in the above post and are required to prove it to get those jobs.

Sorry to give you the bad news but those jobs are not exclusive to Union Electrical firms.



icefalkon said:


> What's the biggest firm you have ever worked for EBFD6? Do you have any idea what goes into a mega project? No, that's not a fair question. I know you don't.


I cant speak for EBFD6 ,But in my 38 years in the Electrical trade I've worked for Electrical firms at one time or another with more than 400 field Electricians doing large jobs just like you are now.



icefalkon said:


> REALLY? That's strange, because if you look at the direct competition from here and overseas that is going on in construction in America, and read anything BUT Republican rags,


:laughing:Yeah Democrat rags are much more honest..:lol:



icefalkon said:


> These aren't "union numbers", or "union propaganda" these are numbers put out by OSHA and the Department of Labor. Oh wait..unions must have THEM paid off as well right?


Really??:blink:Funny because both agency's are Union Friendly.


----------



## eejack

mcclary's electrical said:


> The arrogant nature of this post is a brilliant display of why the nonunion general public does not like unions as a whole. And then you end you rant with "respectfully" after taking sucker shots at him through your entire post. Did you think that would be imoressive?


::sigh::

So now the reason why folks don't like unions is we are arrogant. I guess when someone brings facts to a discussion, instead of fairy tales, uses real world experience instead of imagined happenings that is arrogant.

So far today you have called us arrogant, slow and unproductive, but on the bright side it is still morning so you have time to up your game.

Due to the missing thug reference, I can only give you a 2/10.


----------



## eejack

HARRY304E said:


> Really??:blink:Funny because both agency's are Union Friendly.


Those agencies are worker friendly. That is kind of the point of their existence, as both were created to protect workers, much like unions were created to protect workers.

And you see those agencies under the same considered, deliberate assault as the unions.

Business will not stop until they have us all working like slaves.


----------



## icefalkon

mcclary's electrical said:


> The arrogant nature of this post is a brilliant display of why the nonunion general public does not like unions as a whole. And then you end you rant with "respectfully" after taking sucker shots at him through your entire post. Did you think that would be imoressive?


Really? I believe that my "arrogant nature" was in a direct response to the nature of the post I was replying to. A sucker shot at someone would be if they were blind sided by the shot, he clearly expected a response to his post. I am sincere in my not meaning to be condescending at the end. I normally don't allow emotion to enter my posts in such a way.

Regardless, I shouldn't have directed myself towards EBFD6 in such an unprofessional manner. I apologize for that EBFD6.

Now onto Harry.

I'm more than aware of the many non organized firms with employees in the hundreds. The fact of the matter is that there are plenty of non union firms that take very good care of their employees. I happen to be friends with the owner of one of them in NYC. He employs the same number of men in the field as my current employer does, has a great shop, does Code update classes for his men and goes well beyond the norm. That's the thing right there...HE isn't the NORM. He runs a shop that is one in a thousand. Whether union or non union. He has no reason to join our organization and over dinner or drinks we actually DON'T talk about this. We're friends outside of the trade, I respect him and he respects me. Yes there are some...I'll repeat some unorganized firms with the ability to carry mega projects, but obviously there aren't many. If there were, believe me, in this day of competitive bidding...they would be at the forefront of the industry. Having a 200 man shop is one thing, but carrying a 10 million dollar performance bond is quite another animal all together. Even amongst the nations top electrical contractors that is no easy task to achieve. Looking at industry statistics there are 20 corporations across the United States that have the ability to front such work. 4 of them are distinctly non union. Do you think the owners are doing this by choice? Do you not think that the owners would LOVE to be able to hire men for 1/3 the price that we cost? Of course they do. But with the organization the contractor and NECA has gains as well. They can draw from a much larger work force for skilled individuals than any non union contractor can. If I need a high voltage splicer TOMORROW for a 13080V transmission job...No problem. What time do you want him there. You need a shop that has 100 men with confined space by Thursday? OK, NO problem!

As for newspaper reporting on what's going on with labor in general. There are Republican Rags, Democratic Rags, and Independent Rags...I personally don't believe much if ANYTHING American media has to say. It is all censored, biased in one way or another, and no one reports without ulterior motives. 

The Dept. of Labor is without a DOUBT no longer union friendly. They haven't been in years. The present NLRB has had zero positive influence towards organized labor in the last decade and a half. Again, throwing general statements out there without backup doesn't help your cause. 

OSHA is union biased? LOL Where does THAT come from? OSHA? Really? Have you ever spoke with anyone from that office??? They are without a DOUBT not union friendly. OSHA is for OSHA. No one else...union or non union. If anything OSHA comes down on union contractors for non compliance issues harder than non union contractors. This is due to the fact that nationally we are supposed to "know better" than a mom and pop outfit. 

Again, I slipped for allowing emotions into my post and I won't allow that to happen again. I believe that every electrician should be judged by their skill level not by what card they carry in their pocket. This forum is about educating each other and civil debate. I apologize for my writing to emotionally in response to EBFD6's previous post.

If you or anyone else has such a vehement issue with the IBEW then there is no possible way a civil discussion can ensue. This goes beyond you think your thing..I think my thing. This seems to be a deep rooted dislike based upon the actions of a few versus the actions of many. I can't apologize for things I myself haven't done, especially anything done to you personally. All I can say is that I don't agree with the elitism that you have been shown and go out of my way to make sure MY Apprentices don't behave that way. 

Everyone should treat others the way they want to be treated. 

Steve from NYC


----------



## HARRY304E

eejack said:


> Those agencies are worker friendly. That is kind of the point of their existence, as both were created to protect workers, much like unions were created to protect workers.
> 
> And you see those agencies under the same considered, deliberate assault as the unions.
> 
> Business will not stop until they have us all working like slaves.


Sorry but Government is Union friendly regardless of what agencies we are talking about.

As long as the Unions practice excluding people from their club by all the means and dirty tricks they use along with their support of one party no matter how bad they are for the USA and all of us who have to earn a living they will continue to get kicked around by those of us who have to pay the tab without enjoying any benefit from their existence.


----------



## brian john

Speaking strictly for myself and from personal experience (1-4)

I believe the union is a better way to go for the majority of workers BUT, unions have shot themselves in the foot time and again.

1. Some Union Members look down with disdain on open shop workers (I have told my experiences before)
2. Some Union Members trash the work completed by open shop workers (I have told my experiences before)
3. Some Union Members complicate open shops work on mixed jobs (I have told my experiences before)
4. Some Union Members trash open shop workers vehicles (I have told my experiences before)
5. Long strikes like the steel workers pulled in the 50’s and 60’s are detested by many American’s union and other workers to the point that the public had/has disdain for unions.
6. Many Americans feel Public Sector unions Blow (AND THEY DO) 
7. The union did little for their cause in Wisconsin, looking like a group of asses to the world.
8. The giant rat is despised by open shop workers and ferments hate not friendship.


While the demise of unions is not all the unions fault, the unions marketing campaign (1-8 above) played into of the hands of those that want to curtail unions. A small percentage of workers tell the rest of the country they are rats and scabs, way to make friends.

As I have said 100 times the 97% backing of the Democrats is BS, and does nothing, The Democrats see the union as lackey boys in their pocket. The Democrats think why give those union fools anything they suck at our teat, we have them so we can ignore them. Yet many union members are conservative leaning with other issues, SPREAD THE CASH around and see how the republicans fall in step.

The unions should be trying to corner the market on labor, I know some locals do little to encourage new open shop members other that the age old failure of wanting them to organize their shop. Sign the men, get the work force and then the open shops will have to be union.

The unions have a lot of blame in their loss of market share and if the unions do not realize this in 5-10 years the percentage of union non-public sector jobs will be smaller than it is now.

But the unions will keep up the old boy BS and unfortunately DIE ON THE VINE.


----------



## eejack

HARRY304E said:


> Sorry but Government is Union friendly regardless of what agencies we are talking about.


Sorry but if you are just going to whitewash everything with a tainted brush like that it completely removes any possibility of discussion.

It is essentially putting your fingers in your ears and stammering out, I am not listening.


----------



## eejack

brian john said:


> 1. Some non union workers look down with disdain on union workers (I have told my experiences before)
> 2. Some non union workers trash the work completed by union workers (I have told my experiences before)
> 3. Some non union workers complicate union work on mixed jobs (I have told my experiences before)
> 4. Some non union workers trash union workers vehicles (I have told my experiences before)
> 6. Many Americans feel large corporations Blow (AND THEY DO)
> 7. The republician anti-union lobby did little for their cause in Wisconsin, looking like a group of asses to the world.
> 8. The giant rat is despised by businesses that mistreat their workers and ferments hate not friendship.


Minor editing to change the perspective. Basic rhetoric and about as undeniably true as your original version.

I removed #5 because no one remembers it. No one remember Reagan destroying the airlines and air traffic controllers either.

As far as unions backing the democrats. THEY HAVE TO.

The republicans have come out and said the destruction of unions is one of their top priorities. Over and over again.

Gee, let us support those who wish to destroy us. Makes sense.

The teachers union in NJ supported Christie. He turned around and gutted their pension.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Scorpion_and_the_Frog


----------



## Shockdoc

Were all in the wrong business;




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Overtime was very good to some city workers in the previous fiscal year.…

*City OT bill is good to plumbers and steam fitters*


BENJAMIN LESSER, TINA MOORE
Wednesday, September 12, 2012

As City Hall continues to rely on overtime to plug workforce holes, some city plumbers and steam fitters have had their pay ratcheted up — big time.
William Naddeo, a plumber with the city Housing Authority, was the city’s top OT earner among non-cops in Fiscal Year 2012. He more than doubled his take-home pay, getting $104,369 in overtime dough on top of a base salary of nearly $90,000.
Thomas Gwiazdzinski, a Department of Correction steam fitter, was a close second, pocketing $101,269 in extra-hours pay, data from the Office of Payroll Administration reveals. Both have worked for the city for about 30 years. Two other steam fitters and an FDNY oiler rounded out the overtime Top 5.


----------



## brian john

> I removed #5 because no one remembers it. No one remember Reagan destroying the airlines and air traffic controllers either.


 


And a BIG YAHOO for Regan. Government unions are a BS, he ordered them back to work and THANK GOODNES he fired them.



> The republicans have come out and said the destruction of unions is one of their top priorities. Over and over again.




Of course they want unions gone you won't give them money





> Gee, let us support those who wish to destroy us. Makes sense.


 

because you have this high false moral image of the Dem's when it is ABOUT THE MONEY


[/QUOTE]The teachers union in NJ supported Christie. He turned around and gutted their pension.

 [/QUOTE]

Unfortunately stupid azz politicians SUPPORTED BY UNIONS made false promises that the state could never bear the weight of. It was cut money or go broke. As an intelligent individual he went for operating in the black.


----------



## brian john

> 5. Long strikes like the steel workers pulled in the 50’s and 60’s are detested by many American’s union and other workers to the point that the public had/has disdain for unions.


 
5. OK the foolish screwing of the taxpayers like the TERRIBLE teachers in Chicago, 40% dropout rate of the 60% left the failure rate is exceedingly high.

Yeah FIRE THEM, the students could not be any worse off


----------



## brian john

eejack said:


> Sorry but if you are just going to whitewash everything with a tainted brush like that it completely removes any possibility of discussion.
> 
> It is essentially putting your fingers in your ears and stammering out, I am not listening.


 
NLRB is fair...? Who needs a brush it is COVERED with a giantic spray gun.


----------



## brian john

eejack said:


> Minor editing to change the perspective. Basic rhetoric and about as undeniably true as your original version.


 
The union can ignore the facts all they want, but as their percentage of the work force seems to be growing leaps and bounds?????????

Same old same old


----------



## Shockdoc

brian john said:


> And a BIG YAHOO for Regan. Government unions are a BS, he ordered them back to work and THANK GOODNES he fired them.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course they want unions gone you won't give them money
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> because you have this high false moral image of the Dem's when it is ABOUT THE MONEY


The teachers union in NJ supported Christie. He turned around and gutted their pension.

 [/quote]

Unfortunately stupid azz politicians SUPPORTED BY UNIONS made false promises that the state could never bear the weight of. It was cut money or go broke. As an intelligent individual he went for operating in the black.[/quote]And the civil service unions are the greedy machines that should be eliminated. These members out here get everything on a silver platter , set for life while our property taxes are out of control.


----------



## eejack

Shockdoc said:


> Were all in the wrong business;


Wrong business indeed.

http://www.businessinsider.com/10-highest-paid-government-workers-new-york-2011-6?op=1


----------



## Shockdoc

eejack said:


> Wrong business indeed.
> 
> http://www.businessinsider.com/10-highest-paid-government-workers-new-york-2011-6?op=1


And i bet they roll in to work at about 10 am and leave by 4pm with state owned vehicles working only four days a week.


----------



## BBQ

icefalkon said:


> With all due respect. You have no clue what you are talking about. And by no clue I mean absolute lack of information or knowledge for the subject to which you are speaking about.


This should be good.



> What's the biggest firm you have ever worked for EBFD6? Do you have any idea what goes into a mega project? No, that's not a fair question. I know you don't.


I will answer for myself, about 400 guys, presently just under a couple of hundred.



> I'll put two shops that I have personally worked for that do not only PLA work, but builds 50+ story building out of the ground, as well as another firm I worked for out west that's the largest general contractor in the world who is a direct hire for the IBEW.


We have never done a 50 story, not because we could not, just because they go on in the city and we don't get a chance to even bid.



> Large projects require an enormous amount of training. I'm not talking you sitting through OSHA 10 here, I'm talking projects where every man must have confined space, every supervising Foreman must have OSHA 30, and every man on the job must be scaffold trained and that's just for starters!


Yeah, and we own the building beside our shop, in that building we have permanent class rooms were our guys are trained in all those things and more. 




> Now lets move onto the amount of NPL that goes into a job this size and the amount of money coordination costs. Do you have any idea what it takes to coordinate prints that number in the THOUSANDS? No, unfair question again. By the way...NPL means Non Productive Labor. Foremen, Project Managers, Engineers, etc.


Nothing we don't do as well. 



> How about this, when was the last time you even SAW 6" conduit going in?


We do tons of site work, 5" and 6" is not unusual.




> How about this, what's your skill level with high voltage cable and splicing?


We don't do high voltage splicing, we sub that out to another merit shop contractor that specializes in it.



> How about working on 100' lifts,



Your kidding right? You think only union guys use 100' lifts on a regular basis? 



> or the installation of manufacturer specific high voltage equipment?


We do that as well.



> Hmmm...I think that's going to be an unfair question again also.


Hmmm .... I think it shows how little you know about what happens outside of NYC.



> The union isn't the only entity that trains their employee's. The shop I am presently working for, as well as my last one BOTH provided employee training to supervision and field personnel.


We have two state certified trainers that run our own state accredited apprentice training.




> We have 52 engineers in the company I'm at now and all we do is big work.


We don't we sub it out when needed.




> We have, at any given point...250 field electricians and this company periodically brings vendors in to train our guys.


Yeah, we do that as well. 





> We don't look at a job under $25 Million, and to say that there is no difference in the skill level on these jobs, you sir...are talking out of your ass.


It's all electrical work, the guys in the field show up and follow the prints, it is not rocket science.



> . What kind of ignorance comes out with things like that? This isn't 1970!


You are doing a great job displaying your own ignorance. There is no electrical job we could not handle. 



> Now lets move to your point about unions "driving up the cost of the job". REALLY?


Yes really, and for you to pretend otherwise blows away any credibility you have.




> That's strange, because if you look at the direct competition from here and overseas that is going on in construction in America, and read anything BUT Republican rags, you would know this to be false. This has nothing to do with propaganda. I for one did NOT drink the Kool-Aid. That's my biggest problem. What I do is stay on top of my trade. I stay on top of my job numbers, and am informed as to what is going on in the construction world..not just my trade, but related trades as well.


OK explain it to me, how is using union workers lowering the cost of construction?

Why is it the union is losing market share in many areas? 




> The fact of the matter is that union tradesmen do NOT in fact raise job costs. Jobs are done more efficiently, productivity is up across the country, and job site accidents are down. These aren't "union numbers", or "union propaganda" these are numbers put out by OSHA and the Department of Labor. Oh wait..unions must have THEM paid off as well right? Just like the other poster stirring the pot had to say.


Please post some links to this info.

See the company I have has one of the lowest MOD rates in my area, it helps us get jobs.

We are not unsafe, we are actully safer than many. 




> DO you have any idea how much red tape we have to go through to make sure corruption does NOT happen? How much training? No...of course you don't! We are watched incessantly as to what we do, what monies are collected, what we bill each month, and all your T's better be crossed and your I's better be dotted or you DON"T GET PAID. There are so many Agencies involved with anti-corruption that there is a directory for it! But would you know that in your anti-union mindset....no...I don't expect there's any room for that knowledge in there now is there?


In my area the big dig (A PLA job) was rife with corruption at all levels, the grunt in the field to the executives. 



> I don't mean to be condescending,


Of course you mean it, you have done nothing but be condescending.




> however your personal experience is limited.



And yours as well.



> Thus being limited I can't really blame you for your statements...except for the fact that you type them with such vehemence. Reading your post for the third time all I get the impression of is Archie Bunker sitting there making ridiculous statements about everything...as the world goes by.
> 
> Grow up.


When you have walked in his shoes or my shoes than maybe you could understand the issues.


----------



## eejack

Feh.










Pointless. It is like discussing squirrels with my dog.


----------



## BBQ

eejack said:


> Pointless. It is like discussing squirrels with my dog.


Hmm and why is that?

I have been honest enough to acknowledge the good things about the union, so has Brian. 

But none of the union members can even begin to admit the union is not perfect.

So check the mirror before casting stones.


----------



## brian john

eejack said:


> Feh.
> 
> 
> 
> Pointless. It is like discussing squirrels with my dog.


 
And this will be our demise, ignore pertinent information, SAME OLD SAME OLD.

At least I tried to post what I think MIGHT help foster union membership, you have added NOTHING in regards to improving the union.


----------



## chicken steve

eejack said:


> Feh.
> 
> 
> 
> Pointless. It is like discussing squirrels with my dog.


I've been lit enough out on my porch to do that.....

does that make me a bad man?

~CS~


----------



## EBFD6

icefalkon said:


> With all due respect. You have no clue what you are talking about. And by no clue I mean absolute lack of information or knowledge for the subject to which you are speaking about.
> 
> What's the biggest firm you have ever worked for EBFD6? Do you have any idea what goes into a mega project? No, that's not a fair question. I know you don't.
> 
> I'll put two shops that I have personally worked for that do not only PLA work, but builds 50+ story building out of the ground, as well as another firm I worked for out west that's the largest general contractor in the world who is a direct hire for the IBEW.
> 
> Large projects require an enormous amount of training. I'm not talking you sitting through OSHA 10 here, I'm talking projects where every man must have confined space, every supervising Foreman must have OSHA 30, and every man on the job must be scaffold trained and that's just for starters! Now lets move onto the amount of NPL that goes into a job this size and the amount of money coordination costs. Do you have any idea what it takes to coordinate prints that number in the THOUSANDS? No, unfair question again. By the way...NPL means Non Productive Labor. Foremen, Project Managers, Engineers, etc.
> 
> How about this, when was the last time you even SAW 6" conduit going in? How about this, what's your skill level with high voltage cable and splicing? How about working on 100' lifts, or the installation of manufacturer specific high voltage equipment? Hmmm...I think that's going to be an unfair question again also. The union isn't the only entity that trains their employee's. The shop I am presently working for, as well as my last one BOTH provided employee training to supervision and field personnel. We have 52 engineers in the company I'm at now and all we do is big work. We have, at any given point...250 field electricians and this company periodically brings vendors in to train our guys. We don't look at a job under $25 Million, and to say that there is no difference in the skill level on these jobs, you sir...are talking out of your ass. There are many different types of electricians in the world...from data and technical, to residential, commercial, and deck workers. Each has a set of skills that is enormously different from the other. I wouldn't put a deck guy in a million dollar home, and unless I had a death wish, I wouldn't put a residential electrician on an enormous deck job. Safety, learning curve, and base experience are the markers of success. Not WHO you pay off... What kind of ignorance comes out with things like that? This isn't 1970!
> 
> Now lets move to your point about unions "driving up the cost of the job". REALLY? That's strange, because if you look at the direct competition from here and overseas that is going on in construction in America, and read anything BUT Republican rags, you would know this to be false. This has nothing to do with propaganda. I for one did NOT drink the Kool-Aid. That's my biggest problem. What I do is stay on top of my trade. I stay on top of my job numbers, and am informed as to what is going on in the construction world..not just my trade, but related trades as well.
> 
> The fact of the matter is that union tradesmen do NOT in fact raise job costs. Jobs are done more efficiently, productivity is up across the country, and job site accidents are down. These aren't "union numbers", or "union propaganda" these are numbers put out by OSHA and the Department of Labor. Oh wait..unions must have THEM paid off as well right? Just like the other poster stirring the pot had to say.
> 
> DO you have any idea how much red tape we have to go through to make sure corruption does NOT happen? How much training? No...of course you don't! We are watched incessantly as to what we do, what monies are collected, what we bill each month, and all your T's better be crossed and your I's better be dotted or you DON"T GET PAID. There are so many Agencies involved with anti-corruption that there is a directory for it! But would you know that in your anti-union mindset....no...I don't expect there's any room for that knowledge in there now is there?
> 
> I don't mean to be condescending, however your personal experience is limited. Thus being limited I can't really blame you for your statements...except for the fact that you type them with such vehemence. Reading your post for the third time all I get the impression of is Archie Bunker sitting there making ridiculous statements about everything...as the world goes by.
> 
> Grow up.
> 
> Respectfully,
> 
> Steve from NYC


Typical Union B.S. response, exactly what I expected.

You call me clueless, yet you seem to be the one that thinks only the union is capable of doing electrical work.

Do you honestly think that there are not non-union shops out there that do the exact same work that you superior union electricians do? As both Harry and BBQ have stated, there are many. The largest shop I worked for had 400+ guys in the field (actually the same company BBQ worked for) and they did plenty of large jobs. The company I work for now has about 80 field employees.

In full disclosure I have to admit that I never worked on any of the larger jobs as I worked in the service department. The largest jobs I have been on were 4 stories and under. I have done schools, hospitals, supermarkets, office buildings, manufacturing, rock quarries, and now do commercial/industrial service. We work on lighting, power, communications, industrial controls, commercial fire alarms, pretty much anything electrical 600volts and under.

To answer some of your other questions, I have never installed 6" conduit, I spent about a month running 5" RMC in the ceiling of a hospital about 10 years ago and that was more than enough of that for me. The company I work for does not do any high voltage work, anything over 600volts gets subbed out. I have never worked in a 100' lift, I believe the biggest lift I used was 85'.

As BBQ already said it's all electrical work. At the end of the day our jobs are pretty easy and repetitive. There is not much difference between wiring a 3 story office building and a 100 story office building. It is just a matter of quantity. Instead of doing the same repetitive tasks a couple hundred times, you're doing the same repetitive tasks a few thousand times. You can try to make it sound more difficult than it really is, but that's a fact.

Here is the bottom line, you love the union and I hate the union. We are never going to agree on this topic. I have had way too many negative dealings with the IBEW to ever be convinced that they are a good or worthwhile organization. You obviously have deep rooted beliefs of the incompetence and stupidity of all non-union electricians, who probably aren't even qualified to carry your tools. We will just have to disagree on this topic.


----------



## icefalkon

EBFD6 said:


> Typical Union B.S. response, exactly what I expected.
> 
> You call me clueless, yet you seem to be the one that thinks only the union is capable of doing electrical work.
> 
> Do you honestly think that there are not non-union shops out there that do the exact same work that you superior union electricians do? As both Harry and BBQ have stated, there are many. The largest shop I worked for had 400+ guys in the field (actually the same company BBQ worked for) and they did plenty of large jobs. The company I work for now has about 80 field employees.
> 
> In full disclosure I have to admit that I never worked on any of the larger jobs as I worked in the service department. The largest jobs I have been on were 4 stories and under. I have done schools, hospitals, supermarkets, office buildings, manufacturing, rock quarries, and now do commercial/industrial service. We work on lighting, power, communications, industrial controls, commercial fire alarms, pretty much anything electrical 600volts and under.
> 
> To answer some of your other questions, I have never installed 6" conduit, I spent about a month running 5" RMC in the ceiling of a hospital about 10 years ago and that was more than enough of that for me. The company I work for does not do any high voltage work, anything over 600volts gets subbed out. I have never worked in a 100' lift, I believe the biggest lift I used was 85'.
> 
> As BBQ already said it's all electrical work. At the end of the day our jobs are pretty easy and repetitive. There is not much difference between wiring a 3 story office building and a 100 story office building. It is just a matter of quantity. Instead of doing the same repetitive tasks a couple hundred times, you're doing the same repetitive tasks a few thousand times. You can try to make it sound more difficult than it really is, but that's a fact.
> 
> Here is the bottom line, you love the union and I hate the union. We are never going to agree on this topic. I have had way too many negative dealings with the IBEW to ever be convinced that they are a good or worthwhile organization. You obviously have deep rooted beliefs of the incompetence and stupidity of all non-union electricians, who probably aren't even qualified to carry your tools. We will just have to disagree on this topic.


And did you read what I wrote after I posted this? 

Steve from NYC


----------



## chicken steve

oh yeah well....>









and while we're at it.....>










and furthermore!>>>










so there!

~CS~


----------



## icefalkon

LOL it's far too much to respond to every single line such as you did here BBQ. I know all about the Big Dig, it was run by Bechtel International. I know them well. 

Whereas you think yourself to be the spokesperson for *large *unorganized shops. What we do here in NYC is neither the largest, nor the most complicated. 

I am correct in that union labor is NOT driving up job costs. Non union electrical labor runs less than $10/hr less than our present package here in NYC. The numbers are extremely close. You want to compare **** sizes BBQ...and I'm not playing that game. Suffice it to say that popping one or two large non union shops out among the thousands on the East Coast impresses me about as much as my history impresses you. Which is to say not at all. Working for a shop with all those benefits must be great. You obviously don't NEED the IBEW so why do you have such vehemence for them and their members. If I remember correctly I did not disrespect you. As a matter of fact, I apologized to EBFD6 publicly. 

Now on to your individualistic bashing. LOL Pretty funny. Even more funny is the time it took to do all that. I'll bring up just a few points.

1. No, I never assumed non union shops don't use high man lifts.

2. I actually worked all over the United States. Specifically Kansas City, Montana, Denver, San Diego, LA, and Washington State.

3. What exactly is a State Recognized Apprentice Training Program? Is that two guys in a garage teaching Construction 3000? Is it comparable to the National Joint Apprentice Training Program? If so, fantastic. All the better for the kids. Just who funds this supposed Apprenticeship? Is it part of a larger organization? Being that half of who and what we are is NECA. I'm curious who exactly is funding this apprenticeship? 

4. To the various cut and pastes you did on my post...without the meat of the 'cut'...you are taking much out of context. 

So in closing, I'll give you this...if you think I sounded arrogant and condescending before...just wait till it really comes out! LOL That was nothing but emotion. 

You apparently work for the ONE MOST AMAZING ELECTRICAL CONTRACTOR in the entire United States from which all other great and big non union electrical contractors stem from. You own a building, have a couple of classrooms, sub work out that's too big for you, can throw in light fixtures and big conduit just as fast as any union shop, and I bet you all have uniforms with capes as well! Bravo!! 

You obviously have mentioned everything that we have and are better at it. You have the most toys and you can go home now! 

YAAAY....

Oh wait...it's complete bull**** isn't it? I'm sorry...I thought for a second I was dealing with an irate teenager who just got busted sexting into his blackberry. 

Fine Mr. BBQ...your guys are JUST as good as any union worker out there....and you're faster as well, and you can all pat each other on the back at the bar and laugh how you're the same as all of us....screw those IBEW guys anyway....WAAAAAAAAA....

Cause it really just sounds to me like you have sand in your vagina after all these years and this is the only place you can complain about it.

_*So. You win...no problem BBQ. You harbor all that anger inside, and when it finally really takes it's toll. Just think...*_

*If you were in the IBEW...that medical bill would have been paid for in full. LOL*

(that's for the...this should be good...)  :jester: 

LOL 

Respectfully,

Steve from NYC



BBQ said:


> This should be good.
> 
> 
> 
> I will answer for myself, about 400 guys, presently just under a couple of hundred.
> 
> 
> 
> We have never done a 50 story, not because we could not, just because they go on in the city and we don't get a chance to even bid.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, and we own the building beside our shop, in that building we have permanent class rooms were our guys are trained in all those things and more.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing we don't do as well.
> 
> 
> 
> We do tons of site work, 5" and 6" is not unusual.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We don't do high voltage splicing, we sub that out to another merit shop contractor that specializes in it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your kidding right? You think only union guys use 100' lifts on a regular basis?
> 
> 
> 
> We do that as well.
> 
> 
> 
> Hmmm .... I think it shows how little you know about what happens outside of NYC.
> 
> 
> 
> We have two state certified trainers that run our own state accredited apprentice training.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We don't we sub it out when needed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, we do that as well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's all electrical work, the guys in the field show up and follow the prints, it is not rocket science.
> 
> 
> 
> You are doing a great job displaying your own ignorance. There is no electrical job we could not handle.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes really, and for you to pretend otherwise blows away any credibility you have.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OK explain it to me, how is using union workers lowering the cost of construction?
> 
> Why is it the union is losing market share in many areas?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please post some links to this info.
> 
> See the company I have has one of the lowest MOD rates in my area, it helps us get jobs.
> 
> We are not unsafe, we are actully safer than many.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In my area the big dig (A PLA job) was rife with corruption at all levels, the grunt in the field to the executives.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course you mean it, you have done nothing but be condescending.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And yours as well.
> 
> 
> 
> When you have walked in his shoes or my shoes than maybe you could understand the issues.


----------



## chicken steve

> You want to compare **** sizes BBQ...and I'm not playing that game


ashame niether of you are japanese...>


----------



## 19kilosparky984

eejack said:


> The teachers union in NJ supported Christie. He turned around and gutted their pension.
> ]



HAAAAAA HAAAAAAAA that is god damn funny!!!!!

The teachers union supported Christie?????? WTF???

What planet did that happen?

Holy brain washed kool aid drinker batman!!!!

That's the most ridiculous thing I have even read on any forum ever.

http://www.politickernj.com/matt-friedman/30582/christie-declines-seek-njea-endorsement

Proof your full of it.


----------



## 347sparky

mcclary's electrical said:


> As a whole ( with no way to prove this) imo, union workers are slower, less productive winers.


 
As a whole ( with no way to prove this) imo, non union has no pride and does crappy work, does not know what a code book is, fly by night operations that don't come back and warrenty anything or fix thier f*ckups.


----------



## HARRY304E

347sparky said:


> As a whole ( with no way to prove this) imo, non union has no pride and does crappy work, does not know what a code book is, fly by night operations that don't come back and warrenty anything or fix thier f*ckups.


Many of us non-union guys know the code quite well and all the guys that I know back up their work 100%.


----------



## BBQ

icefalkon said:


> LOL it's far too much to respond to every single line such as you did here BBQ. I know all about the Big Dig, it was run by Bechtel International. I know them well.
> 
> Whereas you think yourself to be the spokesperson for *large *unorganized shops. What we do here in NYC is neither the largest, nor the most complicated.
> 
> I am correct in that union labor is NOT driving up job costs. Non union electrical labor runs less than $10/hr less than our present package here in NYC. The numbers are extremely close. You want to compare **** sizes BBQ...and I'm not playing that game. Suffice it to say that popping one or two large non union shops out among the thousands on the East Coast impresses me about as much as my history impresses you. Which is to say not at all. Working for a shop with all those benefits must be great. You obviously don't NEED the IBEW so why do you have such vehemence for them and their members. If I remember correctly I did not disrespect you. As a matter of fact, I apologized to EBFD6 publicly.
> 
> Now on to your individualistic bashing. LOL Pretty funny. Even more funny is the time it took to do all that. I'll bring up just a few points.
> 
> 1. No, I never assumed non union shops don't use high man lifts.
> 
> 2. I actually worked all over the United States. Specifically Kansas City, Montana, Denver, San Diego, LA, and Washington State.
> 
> 3. What exactly is a State Recognized Apprentice Training Program? Is that two guys in a garage teaching Construction 3000? Is it comparable to the National Joint Apprentice Training Program? If so, fantastic. All the better for the kids. Just who funds this supposed Apprenticeship? Is it part of a larger organization? Being that half of who and what we are is NECA. I'm curious who exactly is funding this apprenticeship?
> 
> 4. To the various cut and pastes you did on my post...without the meat of the 'cut'...you are taking much out of context.
> 
> So in closing, I'll give you this...if you think I sounded arrogant and condescending before...just wait till it really comes out! LOL That was nothing but emotion.
> 
> You apparently work for the ONE MOST AMAZING ELECTRICAL CONTRACTOR in the entire United States from which all other great and big non union electrical contractors stem from. You own a building, have a couple of classrooms, sub work out that's too big for you, can throw in light fixtures and big conduit just as fast as any union shop, and I bet you all have uniforms with capes as well! Bravo!!
> 
> You obviously have mentioned everything that we have and are better at it. You have the most toys and you can go home now!
> 
> YAAAY....
> 
> Oh wait...it's complete bull**** isn't it? I'm sorry...I thought for a second I was dealing with an irate teenager who just got busted sexting into his blackberry.
> 
> Fine Mr. BBQ...your guys are JUST as good as any union worker out there....and you're faster as well, and you can all pat each other on the back at the bar and laugh how you're the same as all of us....screw those IBEW guys anyway....WAAAAAAAAA....
> 
> Cause it really just sounds to me like you have sand in your vagina after all these years and this is the only place you can complain about it.
> 
> _*So. You win...no problem BBQ. You harbor all that anger inside, and when it finally really takes it's toll. Just think...*_
> 
> *If you were in the IBEW...that medical bill would have been paid for in full. LOL*
> 
> (that's for the...this should be good...)  :jester:
> 
> LOL
> 
> Respectfully,
> 
> Steve from NYC


I see, I should have expected this.

I tried to talk to you reasonably and you come back with insults and nothing to back up you claims that union built does not cost more.

So why is it we keep getting more of the work that used to go union around here? 

Keep that head firmly in the sand as your market share continues to drop.


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## 347sparky

HARRY304E said:


> Many of us non-union guys know the code quite well and all the guys that I know back up their work 100%.


 
There are some really smart guys on here code wise and theory wise but the ones I have to follow up on fall into my description. Of course I have not worked around McClary but I am 100% sure that I would not fall into his union definition.


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## icefalkon

BBQ said:


> I see, I should have expected this.
> 
> I tried to talk to you reasonably and you come back with insults and nothing to back up you claims that union built does not cost more.
> 
> So why is it we keep getting more of the work that used to go union around here?
> 
> Keep that head firmly in the sand as your market share continues to drop.


LOL come on now BBQ...that was you trying to talk to me "reasonably"? Christ...I wonder what it's like when you aren't being nice and reasonable! I was in my office finishing my paperwork for the day. I couldn't exactly screw my contractor by surfing the web and the Dept. of Labor for statistics that you'll disavow as cronyism now could I? 

THAT wouldn't be ethical.

I understand that you have a problem with unions. So be it. As EBFD6 stated...I/WE love this thing we have. We do...you don't. So be it. We won't be able to come to terms on it. 

So like a bad marriage, I suggest we both respectfully keep our beliefs and focus on educating the younger generation in being better electricians. Can we agree to that at least?

PS: I'll find some hard data, but you actually have to READ all of it...not just snippets or automatically discount it as being mobbed up and part of the greater conspiracy of union propaganda. LOL

(That's me breaking balls BBQ...not being malicious, arrogant, or whatever other adjectives you've called me in the last 24hrs) LOL

Can't we all just get along...? I hear there are Chinese contractors stealing BOTH our work...how about that! LOL

Steve from NYC


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## Shockdoc

347sparky said:


> As a whole ( with no way to prove this) imo, non union has no pride and does crappy work, does not know what a code book is, fly by night operations that don't come back and warrenty anything or fix thier f*ckups.


 I take great pride in my installations, many of my own which have been running 10 years+ with no problems or defects. I have seen hack jobs installed by both union and non union contractors.


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## icefalkon

Shockdoc said:


> I take great pride in my installations, many of my own which have been running 10 years+ with no problems or defects. I have seen hack jobs installed by both union and non union contractors.


I agree, there are hacks on both sides of the fence. It's personal pride and skill...not whether you hold a card. But that's just my opinion.

Steve from NYC


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## 347sparky

Shockdoc said:


> I take great pride in my installations, many of my own which have been running 10 years+ with no problems or defects. I have seen hack jobs installed by both union and non union contractors.


 
In my local's contract there is a clause about workmanship, basically if you do an unworkman like install you can be made to fix it on your own time. I have seen it carried out a couple of times.


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## chicken steve

icefalkon said:


> I agree, there are hacks on both sides of the fence. It's personal pride and skill...not whether you hold a card. But that's just my opinion.
> 
> Steve from NYC


well said Steve.....


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## eejack

chicken steve said:


> I've been lit enough out on my porch to do that.....
> 
> does that make me a bad man?
> 
> ~CS~


Not at all, not at all.


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## electricmanscott

Don't any of you fruitcakes work??


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## eejack

347sparky said:


> In my local's contract there is a clause about workmanship, basically if you do an unworkman like install you can be made to fix it on your own time. I have seen it carried out a couple of times.


We have the same clause and I ( as a foreman ) used it on some crap work one of my guys put out. Shame of it is, I gave him the time and opportunity to do a good job - and a chance to correct it on company time. I also worked with him on my own time to help him fix it.

#Troll food alert#

Essentially whenever I run a job I tell the guys to take their time and do a good job, regardless of the costs.


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## icefalkon

eejack said:


> We have the same clause and I ( as a foreman ) used it on some crap work one of my guys put out. Shame of it is, I gave him the time and opportunity to do a good job - and a chance to correct it on company time. I also worked with him on my own time to help him fix it.
> 
> #Troll food alert#
> 
> Essentially whenever I run a job I tell the guys to take their time and do a good job, regardless of the costs.


Same here. I have used this at various times to make JW's go back and fix their work.

LOL EE! What are you doing posting that here? LOL Oh boy...

Release the hounds!!

Steve from NYC


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## nolabama

Good work takes time.


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## wendon

eejack said:


> I removed #5 because no one remembers it. No one remember Reagan destroying the airlines and air traffic controllers either.
> 
> :laughing::laughing: Guess I got my laugh for the day. Reagan destroyed the air traffic controllers AND the airlines??? No I haven't forgot that he told the air traffic controller basically to quit breaking the law or he would fire them. And he did what he said!! Boy would I like to see him back again. Do you ever recall him apologizing to other countries that hate us????


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## brian john

nolabama said:


> Good work takes time.


Not that much longer than hack work.


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## big2bird

electricmanscott said:


> Don't any of you fruitcakes work??


Yep. 12 hours today, and I have to come in early tomorrow. I'm pooped.


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## HARRY304E

wendon said:


> I removed #5 because no one remembers it. No one remember Reagan destroying the airlines and air traffic controllers either.
> 
> :laughing::laughing: Guess I got my laugh for the day. Reagan destroyed the air traffic controllers AND the airlines??? No I haven't forgot that he told the air traffic controller basically to quit breaking the law or he would fire them. And he did what he said!! Boy would I like to see him back again. Do you ever recall him apologizing to other countries that hate us????


That is called leadership something the Governor showed tonight .

Reagan showed what leadership is ,He said get back to work or your Fired.

When our employee's said no ,He Fired them,,That is what a leader does he gives orders and expects the job to get done,,Otherwise those who will not do the job get fired.


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## nolabama

brian john said:


> Not that much longer than hack work.


You gotta do hack work twice lol


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## macmikeman

wendon said:


> eejack said:
> 
> 
> 
> I removed #5 because no one remembers it. No one remember Reagan destroying the airlines and air traffic controllers either.
> 
> :laughing::laughing: Guess I got my laugh for the day. Reagan destroyed the air traffic controllers AND the airlines??? No I haven't forgot that he told the air traffic controller basically to quit breaking the law or he would fire them. And he did what he said!! Boy would I like to see him back again. Do you ever recall him apologizing to other countries that hate us????
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, anyway he did break a very lucrative Hawaiian farming industry. Just say NO................:whistling2:
Click to expand...


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## luby104

*My post*



luby104 said:


> The Dawn. Sec. 297


It's hard to believe that in all these years no one ever commented on my post.
I at least expected to be asked what it meant.
After all... it was appropriate to the topic.

:jester:


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## HARRY304E

luby104 said:


> The Dawn. Sec. 297


What's this mean?:blink:


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## luby104

It's been so long, I could not remember.
I had to Google it myself.

From...."The Dawn. Sec. 297"

"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."


It seemed appropriate to the Union vs. Onion topic at the time.

:boxing:


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## HARRY304E

luby104 said:


> It's been so long, I could not remember.
> I had to Google it myself.
> 
> From...."The Dawn. Sec. 297"
> 
> "The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
> 
> 
> It seemed appropriate to the Union vs. Onion topic at the time.
> 
> :boxing:


Well that sure is true.:thumbsup:

Welcome back .:thumbsup:Where the hell have you been?:laughing:


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## luby104

I'd like to say that I've been away learning how to live life.

But at 60 years old, I find that I know very little about anything that really matters.

There is one thought that I would like to add concerning the IBEW
if anyone is still interested in this topic.:sailor:


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## icefalkon

Sure, I'll bite...(boy I hope I don't regret this...lol)


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## luby104

I'm only guessing, but I don't think my comments will ruffle feathers.

I finished my five year apprenticeship in the IBEW. (The first two years
of it were done with a non-union shop).

Simply stated, the Union benefits win.
My story is more about what I sometimes consider to be my worst mistake.

I spent all of my apprenticeship bending and installing pipe in commercial
and industrial buildings...mostly new construction.

After becoming Journeyman, I wanted to learn other skills of the trade.
I wanted to learn Residential wiring. I wanted to wire houses for a while
to learn and become efficient. The commercial jobs were slowing down at the time,
and there were many names on the books.
But I was always employed which caused resentment.
Since the Residential guys were always busy and their book empty,
I asked the Union leader if I could work Residential for a while to learn. 

Can anyone here guess what his answer was?
And why?


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## icefalkon

Well...I can imagine a thousand responses MY Business Manager would say...and none of them good...lol


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## luby104

Actually he responded politely and accurately as far as I know. 

He said that the Commercial guys get paid more per hour than the Residential guys.

I understood his response and why that would present a problem.
So I suggested that I could work for apprentice pay since I did not have
much residential training and that my main concern was to learn the trade.


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## icefalkon

luby104 said:


> Actually he responded politely and accurately as far as I know.
> 
> He said that the Commercial guys get paid more per hour than the Residential guys.
> 
> I understood his response and why that would present a problem.
> So I suggested that I could work for apprentice pay since I did not have
> much residential training and that my main concern was to learn the trade.


Wow...ok what did he say to that? Here in Local 3 it wouldn't be allowed as we have different divisions for that. But I'm curious as to what happened.


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## B4T

Ice... just curious... how do local 3 guys feel when local 25 guys do work in your territory??


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## luby104

icefalkon said:


> Wow...ok what did he say to that? Here in Local 3 it wouldn't be allowed as we have different divisions for that. But I'm curious as to what happened.


As I soon found out, it wasn't allowed here either

To me at least, such a rule as that seemed to be totally insane.
After all, don't the IBEW brothers claim to be the best at their trade?
Why would you not want one of your members to learn all that he can?
Doesn't it make the contractors happy when workers know what they are doing?


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## icefalkon

Depends B4T...if it's for a contractor...all's good. There really isn't animosity between 3 and 25. Most of the union contractors these days have licenses and agreements with both locals. The ones that do outer borough work I mean. There are guys from 25 at the hall all the time, same goes for us out there. When I went away to teach Code out at the National Training Institute I had some LU25 instructors in my class. Great bunch of guys, and they said the same thing. 3 and 25 get along well. Ha, I think it's because a lot of our guys LIVE in Long Island.


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## big2bird

luby104 said:


> As I soon found out, it wasn't allowed here either
> 
> To me at least, such a rule as that seemed to be totally insane.
> After all, don't the IBEW brothers claim to be the best at their trade?
> Why would you not want one of your members to learn all that he can?
> Doesn't it make the contractors happy when workers know what they are doing?


I find it strange that 60 years of age, you want to pursue this. I am 58, and could give a rat's ass about residential anymore.:laughing:

Let me re-phrase this. In 4 more years, I don't care about work anymore. Ima done.


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## brian john

big2bird said:


> I find it strange that 60 years of age, you want to pursue this. I am 58, and could give a rat's ass about residential anymore.:laughing:
> 
> Let me re-phrase this. In 4 more years, I don't care about work anymore. Ima done.


I have two years on you and if my health holds out I hope to have another 15 years.


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## icefalkon

brian john said:


> I havde two years on you and if my health holds out I hope to have another 15 years.


LOL Bri...are you going to be one of those owners who just won't go? 

One contractor I used to run work for who's a friend of mine just turned 80 freaking 7 this year. The shop threw him a party that was unreal and many ex employee's of his came. His nickname is the dinosaur lol. When I asked him when he's going to retire, he replied,"...when I find someone to carry on for me" 

I said what about your son...

He goes...that's your problem Steve...you just don't listen...LOL

I raised a glass to the old bugger. God bless him!


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## big2bird

brian john said:


> I have two years on you and if my health holds out I hope to have another 15 years.


Nope. I am gonna take my "entitlement" and run. It's the American way. :laughing: I'll just piddle on my Vettes and my Model T.


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## eejack

big2bird said:


> Nope. I am gonna take my "entitlement" and run. It's the American way. :laughing: I'll just piddle on my Vettes and my Model T.


If you run across a 57 ragtop vette let me know. My father sold his to get my mother and I over to germany where he was stationed. 

Has never let me forget that.:laughing:


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## HARRY304E

big2bird said:


> I find it strange that 60 years of age, you want to pursue this. I am 58, and could give a rat's ass about residential anymore.:laughing:
> 
> Let me re-phrase this. In 4 more years, I don't care about work anymore. Ima done.


Give this some thought,,If you work till 70 years of age you will get top dollar from your SS payments and it will keep you young and in shape.

Please do not retire early it is not good for your health and mind stay in the game..:thumbup:.


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## big2bird

HARRY304E said:


> Give this some thought,,If you work till 70 years of age you will get top dollar from your SS payments and it will keep you young and in shape.
> 
> Please do not retire early it is not good for your health and mind stay in the game..:thumbup:.


Kind words Harry. Thank you.


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## big2bird

eejack said:


> If you run across a 57 ragtop vette let me know. My father sold his to get my mother and I over to germany where he was stationed.
> 
> Has never let me forget that.:laughing:


Not a problem. Your talking 60-100K nowadays.


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## eejack

big2bird said:


> Not a problem. Your talking 60-100K nowadays.


It might be worth it :thumbup:


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## brian john

big2bird said:


> Kind words Harry. Thank you.


 
And the trade needs his knowledge.


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## brian john

big2bird said:


> Not a problem. Your talking 60-100K nowadays.


 
Guy at work sold his at the start of the downturn, for 72,000.00. He had just finished a complete restoration.


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## icefalkon

What's the rate down by you Brian?


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## big2bird

brian john said:


> Guy at work sold his at the start of the downturn, for 72,000.00. He had just finished a complete restoration.


Smart move. Prices are down at the moment. But they will be back soon. C-2 Vettes are virtually all 6 figures now.


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## luby104

big2bird said:


> I find it strange that 60 years of age, you want to pursue this. I am 58, and could give a rat's ass about residential anymore.:laughing:
> 
> lol....yes I definitely agree with you on that:thumbsup:. But I was actually only in my forties at the time that this story takes place.
> Had I been younger, say late twenties, early thirties, I would have just said
> "okay sir" and went back to my pipe bending. But being forty something
> and plenty ripe for midlife crisis, I chose an alternate path. My thinking being...
> " if I don't follow my dream (of doing the residential stuff), I'll regret it the rest of my life!"
> 
> _*I really like that quote that one of you post about the intelligent life being somewhere else. *_
> :laughing:


----------



## brian john

icefalkon said:


> What's the rate down by you Brian?


 40.75 an hour and 15.25 benifits.


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## icefalkon

brian john said:


> 40.75 an hour and 15.25 benifits.


Not horrible. Our benefit pAckage here is much higher. But that's damn good money for your area isn't it?


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## brian john

icefalkon said:


> Not horrible. Our benefit pAckage here is much higher. But that's damn good money for your area isn't it?


Yes and most of my men get over scale and additional benefits, vacations (I pay for), a few extra holidays, a truck and bonuses. I will cover sick leave if they have a major issue car accident, heart issues etc.....Have covered long term employees up to a few months.

Plus most guys are averaging 8-20 hours OT a week and occasionally 30-40 OT, but that is not as often as it use to happen.


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## BBQ

icefalkon said:


> Not horrible. Our benefit pAckage here is much higher.


What does a gallon of milk cost in NYC, or a one bedroom apartment?


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## icefalkon

Brian: wow very nice! You take damn good care of your guys. 

BBQ: 1 BR Apt in Queens is $1600/month
2 BR Apt is $2200

Gallon of milk: $4.79 I think...have to ask the wife


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## BBQ

icefalkon said:


> BBQ: 1 BR Apt in Queens is $1600/month
> 2 BR Apt is $2200
> 
> Gallon of milk: $4.79 I think...have to ask the wife


I hear ya, I don't by much milk either.:jester:

Just wondering what the NYC cost of living is compared to say Brian's area.


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## brian john

BBQ said:


> I hear ya, I don't by much milk either.:jester:
> 
> Just wondering what the NYC cost of living is compared to say Brian's area.


1 Bedroom 1500.00-2000.00 In Fairfax near metro. Fairfax is 18 miles from DC.


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## icefalkon

brian john said:


> 1 Bedroom 1500.00-2000.00 In Fairfax near metro. Fairfax is 18 miles from DC.


Yeah, that's close to DC. Everything is more expensive there I'm told. I'm friends with a few instructors down there. Are your guys in 26 Brian?


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## brian john

icefalkon said:


> Yeah, that's close to DC. Everything is more expensive there I'm told. I'm friends with a few instructors down there. Are your guys in 26 Brian?


IBEW Local 26


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## RandomIdoit

This site is dedicated to professional electricians and ALL those who work in the electrical industry. That's the topic.


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## brian john

RandomIdoit said:


> This site is dedicated to professional electricians and ALL those who work in the electrical industry. That's the topic.


10 year old thread


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## Kevin

brian john said:


> 10 year old thread


They couldn't spell Idiot right... I'm closing the thread.


----------

