# Wire nuts in Panel



## Staples1 (Oct 30, 2013)

Are you guys allowed to use wire nuts inside panel?


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Yes. If you're not, demand a Code reference.


----------



## Staples1 (Oct 30, 2013)

480sparky said:


> Yes. If you're not, demand a Code reference.


Do they have to give you a code reference or can they just say "thats how we do it". I normally don't have problems, but this guy is complicated.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Staples1 said:


> Do they have to give you a code reference or can they just say "thats how we do it". I normally don't have problems, but this guy is complicated.



The cops just can't pull you over and 'give' you a speeding ticket, can they? No, they must provide you with the law you broke. Inspectors are the same... they are in enforcement. They enforce rules that are enacted into laws. If there's no law against wire nuts in panels (and it ain't in the NEC.....) then they must allow it unless there's a local amendment stating otherwise. And if there's a local amendment, they should be able to provide that to you.

They're INspectors, not EXpectors.


----------



## Staples1 (Oct 30, 2013)

480sparky said:


> The cops just can't pull you over and 'give' you a speeding ticket, can they? No, they must provide you with the law you broke. Inspectors are the same... they are in enforcement. They enforce rules that are enacted into laws. If there's no law against wire nuts in panels (and it ain't in the NEC.....) then they must allow it unless there's a local amendment stating otherwise. And if there's a local amendment, they should be able to provide that to you. They're INspectors, not EXpectors.


Nice I like that example.


----------



## SamoanThor (Oct 18, 2013)

That depends on what you're joining. I doubt its kodsher (get it?) to use a wire nut on your service wire. Then again, if you have the skill set to put a wire nut that big inside a panel and get the cover on...... Walk away. You've won the game of Sparky.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

SamoanThor said:


> ....I doubt its kodsher (get it?) to use a wire nut on your service wire. .........


I know of no NEC rule that would disallow doing so.


----------



## SamoanThor (Oct 18, 2013)

480sparky said:


> I know of no NEC rule that would disallow doing so.


True. But the physics of it are mind boggling. And I bet the packaging would state that pre twisting isn't required.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

SamoanThor said:


> True. But the physics of it are mind boggling. ...........


I've wire-nutted plenty of old 40- and 50-amp service conductors with Big Blues.


----------



## Staples1 (Oct 30, 2013)

480sparky said:


> I know of no NEC rule that would disallow doing so.


I was just talking about the branch circuits.


----------



## SamoanThor (Oct 18, 2013)

Just let me have the joke already..... But yes, wire nuts are acceptable by code (not around here though). I do it all the time, not paying attention to where my AFCIs land.


----------



## chewy (May 9, 2010)

Why wouldnt you just through crimp and heat shrink?


----------



## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

chewy said:


> Why wouldnt you just through crimp and heat shrink?


Because wire nuts are cheaper, easier, and faster


----------



## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

chewy said:


> Why wouldnt you just through crimp and heat shrink?


On smaller branch circuits?? The question is why would you.


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Staples1 said:


> Are you guys allowed to use wire nuts inside panel?


Per 312.8 i'm allowed to incubate eggs in panels , enclosures & disco's , as long as they don't take more than 75% fill, and there's a warning label for the location of the mama hen


~CS~


----------



## cultch (Aug 2, 2011)

This one used to burn me up. I've had plenty of guys say I couldn't do it. Made no sense at all.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

cultch said:


> This one used to burn me up. I've had plenty of guys say I couldn't do it. Made no sense at all.



A lot of guys are reading the Urban Legend Electrical Code.


----------



## Staples1 (Oct 30, 2013)

480sparky said:


> A lot of guys are reading the Urban Legend Electrical Code.


Or the Chicago Electrical Code. Lol


----------



## seabee41 (Dec 21, 2010)

Staples1 said:


> Or the Chicago Electrical Code. Lol


In Chicago they do not like splices in a panel. Tried to fail me for 3 splices I asked for a reference and acted as if they didn't have time to give one.


----------



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

480sparky said:


> A lot of guys are reading the Urban Legend Electrical Code.


 It's totally in there, though. Right between section 250.878(x) "All ground screws must be green" and 406.911(s) "All receptacles must be ground up."


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

seabee41 said:


> In Chicago they do not like splices in a panel. Tried to fail me for 3 splices I asked for a reference and acted as if they didn't have time to give one.


Time to move up the ladder to the AHJ.


----------



## rewire (Jul 2, 2013)

don't know the answer so maybe some one will were panels always rated as junction boxes. I know on old panels you were lucky just to get the wire in let alone a bunch of wire nuts.


----------



## agent5789 (May 3, 2013)

We wirenut our smoke detector homerun to whatever bedroom is by itself in the panel then connect it to an arc fault breaker


----------



## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

The CEC and the NEC agree on this one. I've yet to see anywhere in that book that prohibits the use of wirenuts in a panel. 

Having said that.... one of the ahj's inspectors is kind of anal about it and would prefer to see a butt-splice (through splice) sta-kon connector. He has no legal basis for it but it keeps him happy and he gets less anal about the rest of the inspection so we just do all panels like that..... if required.


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

I've never understood the phobia about wire nuts in a panel. They're perfectly acceptable to splice conductors in a any number of enclosures, but as soon as they're in a panelboard, they become a problem. I have to say it's one of the oddest trade legends I've ever heard.


----------



## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

Big John said:


> It's totally in there, though. Right between section 250.878(x) "All ground screws must be green" and 406.911(s) "All receptacles must be ground up."


....and pig tailing is required, no #14 wire in commercial, backstabbing is evil :tongue_smilie:, and direct burial splices are illegal...

Ill think of some more later.


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

As CS stated 312.8



> 312.8 Switch and Overcurrent Device Enclosures with
> Splices, Taps, and Feed-Through Conductors. The wiring
> space of enclosures for switches or overcurrent devices
> shall be permitted for conductors feeding through, spliced,
> ...


----------



## Mate (Sep 5, 2009)

agent5789 said:


> We wirenut our smoke detector homerun to whatever bedroom is by itself in the panel then connect it to an arc fault breaker


You can put a smoke on a afci?


----------



## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

MTW said:


> I've never understood the phobia about wire nuts in a panel. They're perfectly acceptable to splice conductors in a any number of enclosures, but as soon as they're in a panelboard, they become a problem. I have to say it's one of the oddest trade legends I've ever heard.


. Yep ! I remember being an apprentice and having to help re-pull some underground branch circuits . I asked the foreman why we can't just splice them in the panel ? He looked at me funny and said , " because splicing in a panel is illegal ! " . I asked for a code reference and he basically told me to just re-pull it and shut up , lol !


----------



## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Mate said:


> You can put a smoke on a afci?


It's required in the US.


----------



## Mate (Sep 5, 2009)

Funny, it's prohibited in here! I went with my brother in law for the inspection of his future house with a home inspector. At some point he opened the pannel and see splices. He immediately tell my brother in law that it is a big no no. I tell my BIL that it's legal, not pretty, but legal and safe. Inspector start by telling me that it is against the electrical code and it is dangerous. I told him that I own a electrical code since I am an electrician (wich he did not know) and there is no rule like that in the cec. I got the last word. Can't expect an ex carpenter to inspect electrical install!


----------



## cdnelectrician (Mar 14, 2008)

MTW said:


> I've never understood the phobia about wire nuts in a panel. They're perfectly acceptable to splice conductors in a any number of enclosures, but as soon as they're in a panelboard, they become a problem. I have to say it's one of the oddest trade legends I've ever heard.


At one time it was not allowed here, around the same time they wanted drywall behind the service panel. Antiquated thinking.


----------



## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

cdnelectrician said:


> At one time it was not allowed here, around the same time they wanted drywall behind the service panel. Antiquated thinking.


I don't remember that. Of course, I'm not really that old and have only been in the trade for about 20 yrs......but I asked my Dad and he doesn't remember it either. He's in the trade since 1964. 

Are you sure it was a CEC requirement and not a local amendment that you were dealing with?? Just curious.


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Speedy Petey said:


> It's required in the US.


That is true but some areas have an amendment to keep it off the afci circuit


----------



## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Beyond ridiculous that this repeatedly comes up.


----------



## Aegis (Mar 18, 2011)

To my understanding you can use a panel as a junction box as long as you don't fill the wiring space more then 75%.

You can use a panel as a raceway as long as it's not more then 40%

I'm going by my Ontario code

12-3032


----------

