# Cost overruns on public works projects..



## pjmurph2002 (Sep 18, 2009)

The main problem is that the agency undertaking the project only wants to pay a certain dollar amount for the design. The end result is that the designs are incomplete, and result in numerous change orders for all of the trades involved. Not a Union vs. Non-union issue.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

pjmurph2002 said:


> The main problem is that the agency undertaking the project only wants to pay a certain dollar amount for the design. The end result is that the designs are incomplete, and result in numerous change orders for all of the trades involved. Not a Union vs. Non-union issue.


I used UNION forum because all the building trades are involved in the project.

I was not trying to start one VS the other.. I don't need the spotlight. :thumbsup:


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

It's not just the unions that cause this problem the non union projects go the same way sometimes. And sometimes the municipality is responsible, making stupid changes just cause they think they are necessary.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Black4Truck said:


> It seems every time I hear about a huge public works projects, it is riddled with cost overruns.
> 
> Do the UNIONS low-ball the price for the work and then figure they have the state by the short hairs when added costs start surfacing?
> 
> ...


Thats how the big dig in boston went.
start price $ 2.4B
End price $24B


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

The costs overrun could be in part from over ambitious engineers and architects. After all they probably get the job of engineering the projects using the "going rate process" and then undercutting it.


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## pjmurph2002 (Sep 18, 2009)

I was not trying to start one VS the other.. I don't need the spotlight. :thumbsup:[/quote]

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

That "system" will never work if they want to build anything.. just seems like a no win situation for Joe Taxpayer and a win - win for the guys doing the work.

No wonder things never get done.. :no:


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Let's not forget the corruption, and fraud that are ubiquitous in government run anything. That carries a huge price tag.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

electricmanscott said:


> Let's not forget the corruption, and fraud that are ubiquitous in government run anything. That carries a huge price tag.


But THE DONALD can build a billion dollar casino for the price he was quoted by all the sub-contactors.. :blink:


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Black4Truck said:


> But THE DONALD can build a billion dollar casino for the price he was quoted by all the sub-contactors.. :blink:


If he was Governor The Donald you can bet your ass he couldn't.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

OK... so what I am hearing is this is business as usual and the hundreds of millions of dollars all ready spent is a by-product of a system that doesn't work and never will.. :blink:


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> OK... so what I am hearing is this is business as usual and the hundreds of millions of dollars all ready spent is a by-product of a system that doesn't work and never will.. :blink:


Yeah basically


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Several years ago in DC they started a program to give bonuses to contractors that brought projects in on time or sooner at cost or below. Surprislying the contractors all were beating dead lines and cost estimates.

Then a contractor beat estimated cost and time by quite a bit and DC and the contractor went to court as DC did not want to pay the deserved bonus. Not sure if the program still exist.

I did hear that the New WW Bridge came in a lot less expensive going open bid, Union or Open Shop. Maryland demanded only Union Labor (Davis Bacon) Virginia said OK you pick up the difference in cost. Maryland back down and went the Virginia route when the final prices were configured.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

brian john said:


> Several years ago in DC they started a program to give bonuses to contractors that brought projects in on time or sooner at cost or below. Surprislying the contractors all were beating dead lines and cost estimates.
> 
> Then a contractor beat estimated cost and time by quite a bit and DC and the contractor went to court as DC did not want to pay the deserved bonus. Not sure if the program still exist.
> 
> I did hear that the New WW Bridge came in a lot less expensive going open bid, Union or Open Shop. Maryland demanded only Union Labor (Davis Bacon) Virginia said OK you pick up the difference in cost. Maryland back down and went the Virginia route when the final prices were configured.


Now that is a great idea and Joe Taxpayer gets something built that makes his/her life easier.. :thumbsup:

Really sucks when the people in charge could care less how they waste YOUR money..


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Black4Truck said:


> Now that is a great idea and Joe Taxpayer gets something built that makes his/her life easier.. :thumbsup:
> 
> Really sucks when the people in charge could care less how they waste YOUR money..


 
Under budget and on time or sooner, how can you not like that.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

That one guy who said the government is a cow with 300million tits, he's right on the money.

It shouldn't be this way. I feel like poorly managed money effects everyone, as a dollar wasted is a dollar that could have been put to good use.


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## Control Freak (Mar 8, 2008)

Let me also point out that these jobs get an 8th hour at straight time from all trades, less holidays, less bennies, etc So it definitely isn't labor.
Each trade gives about a 20% concession....................

Let me also point out that the government had offered 4 different scenarios to Christie in order for the project to continue. One such scenario was that the government would foot the bill for the costs of the over run.

And (nobody shoot me) Chris Christie is extremely anti labor! He recently allowed $400 million to slip through the fingers of public school students. I am referring to Race To The Top funds that are granted by the government to help schools. He didnt want to look like he caved in to the teachers union. Yeah.....ok........that makes sense. The guys ego is way to big.


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## Control Freak (Mar 8, 2008)

Black4Truck said:


> But THE DONALD can build a billion dollar casino for the price he was quoted by all the sub-contactors.. :blink:


 
Donald builds Union


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Control Freak said:


> Donald builds Union


Only because of where he builds.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Control Freak said:


> And (nobody shoot me) Chris Christie is extremely anti labor! He recently allowed $400 million to slip through the fingers of public school students. I am referring to Race To The Top funds that are granted by the government to help schools. He didnt want to look like he caved in to the teachers union. Yeah.....ok........that makes sense. The guys ego is way to big.


 
And damn right he should, till we stop the over spending of the states and feds, we will never return to a sound economy.

It is unfortunate the government gave into the unions for all those years, giving away money they would never have, now is the time to stop the BS.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)




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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Black4Truck said:


> It seems every time I hear about a huge public works projects, it is riddled with cost overruns.
> 
> Do the UNIONS low-ball the price for the work and then figure they have the state by the short hairs when added costs start surfacing?
> 
> ...



Black4Truck: how do you post the YOUTUBE vidieo like you did in your ""OP"":001_huh:


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## Control Freak (Mar 8, 2008)

Come on now..............he says its a reporting issue!!!!!!!!!! Okay
You are right..I get the point............hes doing a great job.:no::no:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> Black4Truck: how do you post the YOUTUBE vidieo like you did in your ""OP"":001_huh:


Right click the address and copy it

Press YOUTUBE button on quote screen

Paste address between brackets


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Eliminating prevailing wage laws will take us back to where they needed to be implemented in the first place.

I am all for prevailing wage requirements, and enforcing those requirements.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Black4Truck said:


> Do the UNIONS low-ball the price for the work and then figure they have the state by the short hairs when added costs start surfacing?


The UNIONS supply labor to the contractors. You don't have to be a member to work in the office.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> Thats how the big dig in boston went.
> start price $ 2.4B
> End price $24B


A great part of that is deliberate underestimating to get the project approved, once under way there is no turning back. 

That and the truck loads of stolen materials and as much as they where union guys it had nothing to do with 'the union' it was just plain old greed and shady people.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> *A great part of that is deliberate underestimating to get the project approved, once under way there is no turning back. *That and the truck loads of stolen materials and as much as they where union guys it had nothing to do with 'the union' it was just plain old greed and shady people.



Thanks Bob.. that is what I thought when I started the thread


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> A great part of that is deliberate underestimating to get the project approved, once under way there is no turning back.
> 
> That and the truck loads of stolen materials and as much as they where union guys it had nothing to do with 'the union' it was just plain old greed and shady people.


 It was all deliberate they pushed it as far as they could and all the BIG BOYS made all that money NOT THE WORKERS


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> Thanks Bob.. that is what I thought when I started the thread


If they had ever said 20 Billion up front it never would have got started.


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## Control Freak (Mar 8, 2008)

miller_elex said:


> Eliminating prevailing wage laws will take us back to where they needed to be implemented in the first place.
> 
> I am all for prevailing wage requirements, and enforcing those requirements.


 
Prevailing wage helps every worker every single one of us union or not


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> If they had ever said 20 Billion up front it never would have got started.


Then how come they let these guys get away with something that seems like legal extortion.. :blink:


They have a boat load of money already spent for a hole in the ground that goes no where.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> If they had ever said 20 Billion up front it never would have got started.


if they had 20 Billion up front the would have RAC'ED IT UP 60 Billion in no time:no:


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Bob Badger said:


> If they had ever said 20 Billion up front it never would have got started.


I wish we could get that kind of money circulating in my town.....


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

HARRY304E said:


> It was all deliberate they pushed it as far as they could and all the BIG BOYS made all that money NOT THE WORKERS


First, the workers made plenty of money on this scam. 15 years of labor equals ****loads of money for the workers.

Second, the BIG BOYS should be making lots of money, that's why they are the BIG BOYS and not "the workers" anymore.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Control Freak said:


> Come on now..............he says its a reporting issue!!!!!!!!!! Okay
> You are right..I get the point............hes doing a great job.:no::no:


 
Someone at some point has to fix rhe financial screw up, the government ALLOWED us to get in. After all it is your money and more importantly the future of our country.


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## pjmurph2002 (Sep 18, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> A great part of that is deliberate underestimating to get the project approved, once under way there is no turning back.
> 
> 
> I have seen projects under estimated when the designers are looking to the contractors for budgetary numbers prior to the bidding. It has been my experience that when a project runs over, the majority of the time it goes back to an incomplete design.
> ...


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## bill39 (Sep 4, 2009)

Unions don't bid jobs, contractors do.
There are no "union contractors", only contractors who use union labor.

Of course business owners belong to their own neat little clubs to advance their own causes, things like American Dairy Association, Associated Building Contractors, NECA, American Bar Association, AMA, , etc.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

pjmurph2002 said:


> It has been my experience that when a project runs over, the majority of the time it goes back to an incomplete design.


And why is the design incomplete?

So they can get unrealistic numbers for presentation.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Bob Badger said:


> If they had ever said 20 Billion up front it never would have got started.


 
Is it worth it now?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

miller_elex said:


> I wish we could get that kind of money circulating in my town.....


Get rid of prevailing wage and work might come your way:laughing::laughing::laughing:

Prevailing wage is a automatic cost increase, no matter how you cut it. Let all parties bid it oput on the open market.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

brian john said:


> Get rid of prevailing wage and work might come your way:laughing::laughing::laughing:
> 
> Prevailing wage is a automatic cost increase, no matter how you cut it. Let all parties bid it oput on the open market.



They can bid it open market, prevailing wage doesn't prevent that.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

brian john said:


> Is it worth it now?


The woman that was killed due to the faulty construction may think otherwise but without question it was.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

slickvic277 said:


> They can bid it open market, prevailing wage doesn't prevent that.


 
Sorry you are right, lets word it differently lets not screw the taxpayers on every federal and many state projects.

How do you think PW would do in an election? 

There really is no logic behind this mandate.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

> brian john;315368]Sorry you are right, lets word it differently lets not screw the taxpayers on every federal and many state projects.


How do the wages screw the tax payer? Aren't the guy's earning those wages tax payers? 



> How do you think PW would do in an election?


I dunno, some states might vote it down, others might not.


What's your point anyway?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

slickvic277 said:


> How do the wages screw the tax payer? Aren't the guy's earning those wages tax payers?


A very small percentage, oh and by inflating job cost from day one.




> I dunno, some states might vote it down, others might not.


You are right BUT the PW would lose as the percentage of union labor in the construction industry is shrinking




> What's your point anyway?


PW immedatly inflates a jobs cost in many cases, which lead to an unfair burden on the taxpayer. It also leads to artifically strenghting the unions, who without PW projects some local MIGHT not exist.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

brian john said:


> How do you think PW would do in an election?
> 
> There really is no logic behind this mandate.


I am sure DC would be up in arms when all the work is flooded by contractors from the south, hauling in migrants to work for $11 an hour.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

miller_elex said:


> I am sure DC would be up in arms when all the work is flooded by contractors from the south, hauling in migrants to work for $11 an hour.


I would love to see that, it's time to shake up the snow globe. :laughing:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

miller_elex said:


> I am sure DC would be up in arms when all the work is flooded by contractors from the south, hauling in migrants to work for $11 an hour.


 
There are still rules and they get broken now. Come by one day we'll do a drive by.


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## 11-B (Oct 9, 2010)

Can somebody please explain why it is now popular to hate on people that receive a decent hourly wage, insurance, and have some form of retirement.

What is so wrong with decent wages? It is almost as if people get off on hate’n people that receive wages and benefits.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

11-B said:


> Can somebody please explain why it is now popular to hate on people that receive a decent hourly wage, insurance, and have some form of retirement.
> 
> What is so wrong with decent wages? It is almost as if people get off on hate’n people that receive wages and benefits.



paycheck envy.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

11-B said:


> Can somebody please explain why it is now popular to hate on people that receive a decent hourly wage, insurance, and have some form of retirement.
> 
> What is so wrong with decent wages? It is almost as if people get off on hate’n people that receive wages and benefits.


After you explain to us why an adult with half a brain would use terms like "hate on" :thumbdown: :laughing:


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

11-B said:


> Can somebody please explain why it is now popular to hate on people that receive a decent hourly wage, insurance, and have some form of retirement.


Class warfare gone awry.

The working people who hate really have their head screwed on backwards.

Self-employed electricians need to realize that when electricians make more, as an end result, they will make more too.

All these pundits who want to pin the ills of society on the working middle class, aren't very quick to point out the real source of the problems, because they're getting rich off it.


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## 11-B (Oct 9, 2010)

Hey Scott, did you ever get a job at Home Depot? I remember something about you could not make any money with the tools and were looking into working at a big box store. Or are you still working out of a van, by yourself, and hating on guys that get pay checks?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

11-B said:


> Hey Scott, did you ever get a job at Home Depot? I remember something about you could not make any money with the tools and were looking into working at a big box store. Or are you still working out of a van, by yourself, and hating on guys that get pay checks?


 
What do you know you are just an oversized box.:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## 11-B (Oct 9, 2010)

I'm just another square


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

11-B said:


> Hey Scott, did you ever get a job at Home Depot? I remember something about you could not make any money with the tools and were looking into working at a big box store. Or are you still working out of a van, by yourself, and hating on guys that get pay checks?


What is wrong with working out of a van and by yourself?? :blink:

Some of us here do quite well with that simple setup.. :thumbsup:


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## 11-B (Oct 9, 2010)

Black4Truck said:


> What is wrong with working out of a van and by yourself?? :blink:
> 
> Some of us here do quite well with that simple setup.. :thumbsup:


 
It’s really whatever tips your hat. :thumbsup:

It’s ok for you to do “quite well” working out of a van. But if you get paid on a check and are part of any kind of union, that’s bad.

Perhaps I am not reading this thread right but: 

If you work for yourself and do “quite well” that’s good.

If you’re a W-2 wage earner and do “quite well” that’s bad and corrupt.

If you are self employed and write off tons of stuff on your income taxes that’s OK and not corrupt. If you show no income you don’t pay much tax and that’s good, right?

Just because you’re self employed “GOOD” and anything union “BAD”.

Anybody getting W-2’d pays way more in taxes than self employed.


What do I know, I'm just a box.....total square


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

11-B said:


> Hey Scott, did you ever get a job at Home Depot? I remember something about you could not make any money with the tools and were looking into working at a big box store. Or are you still working out of a van, by yourself, and hating on guys that get pay checks?


Still lookin' to get my piece of the entitlement pie. If only I could find some corrupt organization to go get it for me. :laughing:


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

11-B said:


> Anybody getting W-2’d pays way more in taxes than self employed.


Can you back this up with actual numbers.


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## 11-B (Oct 9, 2010)

electricmanscott said:


> Can you back this up with actual numbers.


 

Nope.

Have you ever bought anything at a home improvement store and expensed it through your company? What about your cell phone that you make personal calls on? Trips in the work van that have nothing to do with work. Kids school supplies at Ofiice Depot.


If you are w-2 you cannot get the write offs that “self-employed, contractors” get.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

I know I will be called ******** by many....

But I do the straight up 1040 EZ. I don't write off mortgage interest, and I only buy stocks, like Toyota and Intel, I don't sell them... I just consider it my responsibility to help pay for the society I live in. I don't care if society is effed up, and a bunch of welfare moms are milking the system, I am doing just fine, and can easily afford it.

Just my 2 cents. Somebody has to give back.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

11-B said:


> I'm just another square


 
And I bet the shallow variety?:whistling2:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

11-B said:


> It’s really whatever tips your hat. :thumbsup:
> 
> 
> If you’re a W-2 wage earner and do “quite well” that’s bad and corrupt.
> ...


Maybe one person said unions are bad, I said that PW jobs inflate the cost of the job.

I know several self employed EC paying a damn sight more in taxes that my A-JWs.

But the ECs are taking chances and risk, a union or open shop man may never face.

In addition many JWs have company trucks.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

brian john said:


> But the ECs are taking chances and risk, a union or open shop man may never face.


Nobody is going to dispute that.

Alot of union and open shop men are allergic to risk, but if they get too hungry, that allergy will fade away.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

miller_elex said:


> Nobody is going to dispute that.
> 
> Alot of union and open shop men are allergic to risk, but if they get too hungry, that allergy will fade away.


 
Some people should never go in business, others should at least try it, you never know till you try. Risk and no pay check ate me up for several years, damn near cashed it all in several times.

New baby, pregnant wife, no paycheck and no insurance, with “A” JWs making more than I was and insured to boot, can do a lot towards eroding your confidence.

Some of the best elecricians make the best workers and some of the poorer elecrtricians make better managers. I THINK I fit in there somewhere.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

11-B said:


> It’s really whatever tips your hat. :thumbsup:
> 
> It’s ok for you to do “quite well” working out of a van. But if you get paid on a check and are part of any kind of union, that’s bad.
> 
> ...


W-2's Thats your fault your an Emplyee 



[If you are self employed and write off tons of stuff on your income taxes that’s OK and not corrupt. If you show no income you don’t pay much tax and that’s good, right?]

So you want us to pay for the customers Stock?
Hey maybe as an "Employee you should have to pay for all the stock you use on the job eh?


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## 11-B (Oct 9, 2010)

HARRY304E said:


> W-2's Thats your fault your an Emplyee
> 
> 
> WOW, I think I worked for you in the past, it really was my fault that I was "your" employee.
> ...


Are you the guy that gives workers the company van and tells them that they would be driving to work any way, and they should pay for the gas if they want a job? I think I worked for you once. 

You do not pay for that stock yourself. Your customer pays for the stock. Better yet the customer trusted you with the funds to pay for the stock and labor. 


*If you work for someone else*
*Social Security tax*
*Medicare tax*
You pay
6.2% 
1.45%
Your employer pays
6.2% 
1.45%

*If you are self-employed*
You pay
12.4%
2.9% 


I'd say uncle Sam gets the same amount for ever adult that has a SSN#. So again if you are the “boss”, owner, or self employed you pay way less in taxes, due to the all the write offs.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

11-B said:


> Are you the guy that gives workers the company van and tells them that they would be driving to work any way, and they should pay for the gas if they want a job? I think I worked for you once.
> 
> You do not pay for that stock yourself. Your customer pays for the stock. Better yet the customer trusted you with the funds to pay for the stock and labor.
> 
> ...


 
Stock cost the CONTRACTOR money till such time as he is able to sell said stock. I have several 6,000 amp fuses in stock, now when the sell and they will I will have the profit on which I will pay tax.

I stock fuses from 1-6,000 amp, some move fast and others sit but when you need a fuse at 2:00 AM, they get real pricey.

I had an EC that under bid us on a job, screwed the job up and dumped a large telecom data center. At 1:30 AM Sunday, the facility manager called asking for help. We fixed the problem (crossed parallel feeders, the EC thought they had a faulty cable) and installed 2-1,200 amp fuses. The EC wanted to do a material swap on Monday...Yeah OK, I am nice but not that nice.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

11-B said:


> Can somebody please explain why it is now popular to hate on people that receive a decent hourly wage, insurance, and have some form of retirement.
> 
> What is so wrong with decent wages? It is almost as if people get off on hate’n people that receive wages and benefits.


Primarily the unions have done a PISS POOR job of marketing themselves. Look at Toyota, had problems but with good marketing they are back selling cars like nothing happened, BP will do the same, ValuJet totally remarketed themselves after landing in the Everglades. Yet the union leadership takes the same path that the public (majority) have said time and again, stinks.

Everytime that big rat is shown on TV, teachers strike, trashmen strike, hell the majority of the country, NO MATTER HOW WARRANTED strikes or work actions are, the public looks and says what a bunch of A-holes. Hell the majority of the country clapped as Regan shot down the air traffic controllers

Everyday in DC, Janitors for Justice picket a building and the folks that are impacted think (only from a small sample of workers I have discussed this with) idiots get to F out of the way. 

And as long as unions remain with old school tactics they will go the way of Mongomery Wards, the hardware stores, mom and pop resturants while Walmart's, Home Depots and TGIF's of the world beat their ass.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

11-B said:


> *If you work for someone else*
> *Social Security tax*
> *Medicare tax*
> You pay
> ...


What a load of nonsense. 

The write offs are business expenses.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

HARRY304E said:


> W-2's Thats your fault your an Emplyee
> 
> 
> 
> ...





11-B said:


> Are you the guy that gives workers the company van and tells them that they would be driving to work any way, and they should pay for the gas if they want a job? I think I worked for you once.
> 
> No i don't hire "workers".I hire other Electricians and they drive their own truck to the job. All my jobs are close to the shop.
> When i had six 1 ton vans on the road i paid for the gas and in mass it cost $200 every december to register 1 van[[Your car $40 every two years]]
> ...


I do not have any full time Employee's any more the state pass mandtory heath care law, When i had full time guys i payed 100% the state changed the law and made it cost three times as much it is not worth it so i work by my self


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## 11-B (Oct 9, 2010)

brian john said:


> Primarily the unions have done a PISS POOR job of marketing themselves. Look at Toyota, had problems but with good marketing they are back selling cars like nothing happened, BP will do the same, ValuJet totally remarketed themselves after landing in the Everglades. Yet the union leadership takes the same path that the public (majority) have said time and again, stinks.
> 
> Everytime that big rat is shown on TV, teachers strike, trashmen strike, hell the majority of the country, NO MATTER HOW WARRANTED strikes or work actions are, the public looks and says what a bunch of A-holes. Hell the majority of the country clapped as Regan shot down the air traffic controllers
> 
> ...


Yes Brian, you are 100% correct. They do need to market themselves differently. It’s more about marketing than anything else.


Look at the U.S. Green Building Council, that’s all marketing too. If you believe in that stuff, or not, fact of the matter is that U.S.G.B.C is here to stay, and the guy who started that is a marketing guru. So Brian you are right, marketing is the key.


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## 11-B (Oct 9, 2010)

brian john said:


> Stock cost the CONTRACTOR money till such time as he is able to sell said stock. I have several 6,000 amp fuses in stock, now when the sell and they will I will have the profit on which I will pay tax.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

11-B said:


> brian john said:
> 
> 
> > Stock cost the CONTRACTOR money till such time as he is able to sell said stock. I have several 6,000 amp fuses in stock, now when the sell and they will I will have the profit on which I will pay tax.
> ...


----------



## amptech (Sep 21, 2007)

11-B said:


> brian john said:
> 
> 
> > Stock cost the CONTRACTOR money till such time as he is able to sell said stock. I have several 6,000 amp fuses in stock, now when the sell and they will I will have the profit on which I will pay tax.
> ...


----------



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> What you might be missing is that a good many of us business owners are still W-2 employees of our own corporations. The corporation may receive a great many tax benefits, but us (personally), not so much.


That seems to be an important point, you can't escape the taxes.


----------



## JacksonburgFarmer (Jul 5, 2008)

You jacklegs that think anyone whom is self employed makes money hand over fist, and shouldnt have any tax write offs need a dose of reality. 

For anything to be a write off, you first have to generate that much PROFIT to DEDUCT it from. Else wise you show a loss. Not many buisnesses want to show losses year after year.

PW is bull ******. Let the market determin pricing. The idea of having government mandated wages is as socialist as it can get. If your are worth your money, you will earn it. If you are not, you wont. 

Although you may have to start your own shop to earn what you are worth, but, my friends that is how it should be. Earn what you are WORTH, not what you wish you were worth:laughing:


----------



## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

> *JacksonburgFarmer;*316236]You jacklegs that think anyone whom is self employed makes money hand over fist, and shouldnt have any tax write offs need a dose of reality.
> 
> For anything to be a write off, you first have to generate that much PROFIT to DEDUCT it from. Else wise you show a loss. Not many buisnesses want to show losses year after year.


What's a Jackleg?



> PW is bull ******. Let the market determin pricing. The idea of having government mandated wages is as socialist as it can get. If your are worth your money, you will earn it. If you are not, you wont.


This is in direct contradiction to the next paragraph. Which one is it, you can earn what your worth, OR, you can't UNLESS your in business for yourself?



> Although you may have to start your own shop to earn what you are worth, but, my friends that is how it should be. Earn what you are WORTH, not what you wish you were worth:laughing:


Is minimum wage and legally required overtime rates socialism too?
How about social security, unemployment, workers compensation, child labor laws, maternity leave, etc..........


----------



## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

amptech said:


> I play by the rules and the result of my audit was the IRS owed me. I choose to err on the side of caution where taxes are concerned. I take every clear legal deduction but stay away from "gray areas" that many use.


I wonder what triggered the audit...  As for the above, that's the most we can ask, is for people to honestly pay their taxes... :thumbup:


----------



## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

JacksonburgFarmer said:


> The idea of having government mandated wages is as socialist as it can get. If your are worth your money, you will earn it. If you are not, you wont.


I hear you bro. I hate the government getting involved to the point on parenting. They said I can't send my son to work 12 hour days six days a week at the slaughterhouse. What an invasion of my rights, he doesn't need to learn how to read anyways.

Hey Jacksonburg, on your way into town, do your best to stay off our socialist road and highway system. Dammit, every road should be a turnpike.


----------



## 11-B (Oct 9, 2010)

_No i don't hire "workers".I hire other Electricians and they drive their own truck to the job. All my jobs are close to the shop.__
__When i had six 1 ton vans on the road i paid for the gas and in mass it cost $200 every december to register 1 van[[Your car $40 every two years]]
Oh dont forget the insurence.
__
__You don’t hire workers; I am guessing you don’t hire W-2 employees. You did in the past but not any more._

_You hire “electricians” that drive their own vans. OK. The whole making pay checks cash every Friday is hard work, pesky employees, coming around every morning, wanting checks that don’t bounce at the end of the week. __OH really I pay all the job cost up front and dont get paid till the end of the job_
_So you hire “electricians” that drive their own vans. _
_Sounds like you treat your electricians like subs. Do you pay your subs by the week or by the job? Or you get no money until the end of the job and you work off pay when paid system?_
_I am guessing that the “electricians” drive vans/trucks because they supply all the tools?_
_And you pay the supply house up front for the supplies because you want the discount for pre-pay, smart man. _
I do not have any full time Employee's any more the state pass mandtory heath care law, When i had full time guys i payed 100% the state changed the law and made it cost three times as much it is not worth it so i work by my self
Sounds like the good old free market capitalism gave you a thumbs down on your business skills.
Kinda like playing cards, if you don’t have the skills to compete with the other players you can’t stay in the game long.
P.S. I live in a state that does not have mandatory heath care laws and the cost of insurance goes up every year any ways………….even in non construction businesses.


----------



## amptech (Sep 21, 2007)

miller_elex said:


> I wonder what triggered the audit... As for the above, that's the most we can ask, is for people to honestly pay their taxes... :thumbup:


Supposedly, according to the IRS, my name was drawn in the random audit lottery. When it was over I asked what I did that raised a red flag and that's the answer I got.


----------



## 11-B (Oct 9, 2010)

http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/7524401/ 


:thumbup:


----------



## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Its sounds more like intelligent discussion to watch it on video. :thumbup:


----------



## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

I can't find the original post by Harry where he states that he had to let everybody go, and now he 10-99's his electricians. Did you make this up? Harry does this to circumvent the health insurance requirements? Honestly, I can see the advantage of this system to Harry.

I don't know how Mass. works. But here there are laws to prevent 1099ing employees. EC's do it, and can get away with it, until someone gets hurt or someone gets pissed off.

OTOH, I'll bet if Harry is working by himself, other contractor's are jealous that he doesn't have the hassle of employees, and that he can do what he wants, when he wants, where he wants.


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

11-B said:


> http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/7524401/
> 
> 
> :thumbup:


Well Well Well11-B good producktion your wasting your time trying to become an ELECTRICIAN YOU want to use my words out of context
Your a RIGIT LIBRETARD IN YOUR 20's that has no idea what it is like to run a business.
The fact is you don't know s**t about what it is like to even be an Electrician .
If you can put to gether a vidieo like that than that is the trade you should take up , from what i understand you whak job democratic party could use your help.
You lover larry King has the lowest ratings on the air.
and you put sarha pailin as a fool like you would
in the meen time she sticks up for you and me every day
Your just to brain washed by your masters to know better
you will never make it in this trade Because you think a living is owed to you
so keep making you video's you wiil not make it in our trade i know that for a fact


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

here'my vidieo produced by others 11-B


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

11-B said:


> http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/7524401/


:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: That was sooooo... stupid it was funny.


----------



## 11-B (Oct 9, 2010)

Help I can’t breathe....... I’m laughing soo hard……Harry Please don’t take it personally and jump off a building….all in good fun.

Remember what your mother told you Harry “they only make fun of you if they like you”

All in good fun man


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> That was sooooo... stupid it was funny.


Ya the Kid sould stick to poducing stuff like that verses being an Electrician:laughing::laughing::laughing:


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

11-B said:


> Help I can’t breathe....... I’m laughing soo hard……Harry Please don’t take it personally and jump off a building….all in good fun.
> 
> Remember what your mother told you Harry “they only make fun of you if they like you”
> 
> All in good fun man



No i won't but you going to have to work one HE** OF A LOT HARDER TO GAIN my respect


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

11-B said:


> Help I can’t breathe....... I’m laughing soo hard……Harry Please don’t take it personally and jump off a building….all in good fun.
> 
> Remember what your mother told you Harry “they only make fun of you if they like you”
> 
> All in good fun man



Ok!:thumbup::laughing::laughing:Then disregard my last post:laughing:


----------



## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

HARRY304E said:


> Well Well Well11-B good producktion your wasting your time trying to become an ELECTRICIAN YOU want to use my words out of context
> Your a RIGIT LIBRETARD IN YOUR 20's that has no idea what it is like to run a business.
> The fact is you don't know s**t about what it is like to even be an Electrician .
> If you can put to gether a vidieo like that than that is the trade you should take up , from what i understand you whak job democratic party could use your help.
> ...


Twist the cap off your second fifth yet today Harry? :laughing:


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

I got a question for ya Harry. 

Can you see Russia from your office window?


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> I got a question for ya Harry.
> 
> Can you see Russia from your office window?



Ya how about you:thumbup:


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

miller_elex said:


> Twist the cap off your second fifth yet today Harry? :laughing:


No how about you libby:laughing:


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> Ya how about you:thumbup:


They wouldn't give me an office with a window. They said I had to install my own with my own tools if I wanted one.


----------



## 11-B (Oct 9, 2010)

part deux:no:


http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/7525381

or, same links

http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/7525381/ 



:whistling2:

A first for me, on the internet at 1 am.........


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

11-B said:


> part deux:no:
> 
> 
> http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/7525381
> ...



Maybe you have been an a electrician for 18 years but you are a looser Thats no bull buddy


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

11-B said:


> part deux:no:
> 
> 
> http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/7525381
> ...



I put all seven of my kids through collage. and you?


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> I put all seven of my kids through collage. and you?


He makes lame movie clips, duh :laughing:


----------



## 11-B (Oct 9, 2010)

Harry, in the words of your hero “Bring it on”.
Twist the top on the fifth buddy.
I am ready for a Rush is right hour.
You got that fire in your belly man BRING IT ON.
I think Glen Beck is kuku bird. Gimmy ten reason he isn’t, come on son. You say I can’t handle the truth. Gimmy the TRUTH baby!!!!


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

11-B said:


> Harry, in the words of your hero “Bring it on”.
> Twist the top on the fifth buddy.
> I am ready for a Rush is right hour.
> You got that fire in your belly man BRING IT ON.
> I think Glen Beck is kuku bird. Gimmy ten reason he isn’t, come on son. You say I can’t handle the truth. Gimmy the TRUTH baby!!!!



Then europe is the place for you and i will help you move,, i am glad you found your self peon.:thumbup:


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> He makes lame movie clips, duh :laughing:



It' funny let him sink his ship:hammer::laughing:


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> It' funny let him sink his ship:hammer::laughing:


Who are we beating with the hammer?


----------



## 11-B (Oct 9, 2010)

Seven kids and six work vans…..Harry you ever thought about doing a moving company?

“Me and My Seven Kids Moving Enterprises Inc”
Oh, wait you don't have the stickers....right


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

11-B said:


> Harry, in the words of your hero “Bring it on”.
> Twist the top on the fifth buddy.
> I am ready for a Rush is right hour.
> You got that fire in your belly man BRING IT ON.
> I think Glen Beck is kuku bird. Gimmy ten reason he isn’t, come on son. You say I can’t handle the truth. Gimmy the TRUTH baby!!!!


 
I am a right wing republican and love the USA :thumbup:

unlike you you self lothing libretard moonbat:laughing:http://www.moonbattery.com/


----------



## 11-B (Oct 9, 2010)

Oh, Harry


----------



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

11-B said:


> Oh, Harry


Oh John must you always be a Troll?


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

11-B said:


> Oh, Harry


GLENN BECK..http://www.sodahead.com/united-stat...ial-operations-warrior-fund/question-1179717/


----------



## 11-B (Oct 9, 2010)

Sorry I'm not John.


----------



## 11-B (Oct 9, 2010)

Harry, Why don’t you walk around and get some fresh air or have some coffee or something.
What’s wrong cat got your tongue?
Beck drinks dirty dish water.


----------



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

11-B said:


> Sorry I'm not John.



Oh so just a troll, .......... got it.


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

11-B said:


> Harry, Why don’t you walk around and get some fresh air or have some coffee or something.
> What’s wrong cat got your tongue?
> Beck drinks dirty dish water.


 http://www.boston.com/news/nation/a...nt_by_democrats_sells_for_21m_to_aid_charity/


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

11-B said:


> Harry, Why don’t you walk around and get some fresh air or have some coffee or something.
> What’s wrong cat got your tongue?
> Beck drinks dirty dish water.


 
YA He just sticks up for your freedom every day,,.. ya that makes him bad right.

http://www.sodahead.com/united-stat...ial-operations-warrior-fund/question-1179717/


----------



## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

HARRY304E said:


> unlike you you self lothing libretard moonbat


Geebus. Harry, I am at a loss for words when confronting your retardedness. Your stupidity must be contagious, after reading something you've written, I feel all the dumber. :thumbup:


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

11-B said:


> Harry, Why don’t you walk around and get some fresh air or have some coffee or something.
> What’s wrong cat got your tongue?
> Beck drinks dirty dish water.


*Leukemia and lymphoma telethon*

Rush Limbaugh holds an annual fundraising telethon called the "EIB Cure-a-Thon"[98] for the Leukemia & Lymphoma Society.[99] In 2006, the EIB Cure-a-Thon conducted its 16th annual telethon, raising $1.7 million,[100] totaling over $15 million since the first cure-a-thon.[101] According to Leukemia and Lymphoma Society annual reports, Limbaugh personally contributed between $100,000 and $499,999 from 2000–2005 and 2007,[102] and Limbaugh claims to have contributed around $250,000 in 2003, 2004 and 2005.[103] NewsMax reported Limbaugh donated $250,000 in 2006,[104] and the Society's 2006 annual report placed him in the $500,000 to $999,999 category.[102] Limbaugh donated $320,000 during the 2007 Cure-a-Thon[105] which the Leukemia and Lymphoma Society reported had raised $3.1 million.[106] On his radio program April 18, 2008, Limbaugh claimed to pledge $400,000 to the Leukemia and Lymphoma Society after being challenged by two listeners to increase his initial pledge of $300,000.[107]
*Rush 24/7 Adopt-A-Soldier Program*

Limbaugh's website maintains a page where US soldiers can register for a free subscription to Limbaugh's online premium service, _Rush 24/7_, through memberships purchased by donors who buy a subscription (at a reduced price) as a gift.[108]
*Marine Corps-Law Enforcement Foundation*

Limbaugh conducts an annual drive to help the Marine Corps-Law Enforcement Foundation collect contributions to provide scholarships for children of Marines and law enforcement officers/agents who have died in the line of duty.[109][110] The foundation was the beneficiary of a record $2.1 million eBay auction in October 2007 after Limbaugh listed for sale a letter critical of him signed by 41 Democratic senators and pledged to match the selling price


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

miller_elex said:


> Geebus. Harry, I am at a loss for words when confronting your retardedness. Your stupidity must be contagious, after reading something you've written, I feel all the dumber. :thumbup:


ya miller your right you might want to change your avitar it makes me want to puke


----------



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

miller_elex said:


> Geebus. Harry, I am at a loss for words when confronting your retardedness.


It is good he is from MA, we have places that can help him.


----------



## doubleoh7 (Dec 5, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> I am a right wing republican and love the USA :thumbup:
> 
> unlike you you self lothing libretard moonbat:laughing:http://www.moonbattery.com/


 

I love the USA as well, which is why I can no longer be a Republican. Now, before you go assuming that I was or am a Democrat, I have NEVER voted for a Democrat in any election. There is one exception, I did vote as a Democrat in the 08 primary. I knew that the Republicans were going to nominate another Bush type, and I was trying to limit the damage when he lost.

At one time I was a fervent conservative Republican until they took my first career from me. They call it "free trade" I call it feeding corporate America's insatiable thirst for cheap labor. I was even a Limbaugh fan, and I've got his two books on my shelf.

To paraphrase Ronald Reagan: I never left the Republican Party, they left me.


----------



## 11-B (Oct 9, 2010)

*ACLU Comes to Rush Limbaugh's Defense*

Limbaugh admitted his addiction to prescription painkillers in October

Rush Limbaugh tied the marriage knot for the fourth time in June 2010. His previous three marriages all ended in divorce. Here's information about the failed marriages of Rush Limbaugh and his latest marriage to Kathryn Rogers.


I just did the math....rush is only thirty years older than his newest wife.

Winner


----------



## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

HARRY304E said:


> ya miller your right you might want to change your avitar it makes me want to puke


When I saw that picture, the first thought in my mind was: That must be what Harry looks like. :blink:


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> Who are we beating with the hammer?


The libretard:laughing:


----------



## doubleoh7 (Dec 5, 2009)

BTW this thread is starting to go into dangerous territory. The Mods seem to tolerate these things until they become a right vs. left or a Republican vs. Democrat arguement. Then they suddenly get closed.


----------



## 11-B (Oct 9, 2010)

Harry what you can’t write out your own thoughts? 

Say something original. Tell us how much better you will be after Nov 2nd. Exactly what is going to change overnight that will get your six vans back on the street….


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

doubleoh7 said:


> I love the USA as well, which is why I can no longer be a Republican. Now, before you go assuming that I was or am a Democrat, I have NEVER voted for a Democrat in any election. There is one exception, I did vote as a Democrat in the 08 primary. I knew that the Republicans were going to nominate another Bush type, and I was trying to limit the damage when he lost.
> 
> At one time I was a fervent conservative Republican until they took my first career from me. They call it "free trade" I call it feeding corporate America's insatiable thirst for cheap labor. I was even a Limbaugh fan, and I've got his two books on my shelf.
> 
> To paraphrase Ronald Reagan: I never left the Republican Party, they left me.


 
Yup things are much better now:001_huh:


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

11-B said:


> Harry what you can’t write out your own thoughts?
> 
> Say something original. Tell us how much better you will be after Nov 2nd. Exactly what is going to change overnight that will get your six vans back on the street….


I dont have to you will see for your self


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> The libretard


Ok, I will get in on it

:hammer::hammer::hammer:


----------



## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

HARRY304E said:


> ya miller your right you might want to change your avitar it makes me want to puke


Not my avatar's fault.

A bottle followed by a half-rack is never a good idea Harry. Lay down on your side, focus on breathing steady, sip water, and have your husband hold the trash can in front of your face.


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

11-B said:


> Harry what you can’t write out your own thoughts?
> 
> Say something original. Tell us how much better you will be after Nov 2nd. Exactly what is going to change overnight that will get your six vans back on the street….


my six vans are gone for good with all the stress thank god.


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

:laughing:


miller_elex said:


> Not my avatar's fault.
> 
> A bottle followed by a half-rack is never a good idea Harry. Lay down on your side, focus on breathing steady, sip water, and have your husband hold the trash can in front of your face.


:laughing::laughing::laughing:


----------



## doubleoh7 (Dec 5, 2009)

11-B said:


> *ACLU Comes to Rush Limbaugh's Defense*
> 
> Limbaugh admitted his addiction to prescription painkillers in October
> 
> ...


 
Rush can afford trophy wives. He really lost me when he hired a personal chef. He was talking about it on the air one day and said that it is not really that expensive!!! That is when it really sank in that he is out of touch with the economic issues faced by working Americans.

At one time (in the early to mid nineties) I thought that I would have financial security because I was good at and enjoyed my chosen career. I worked hard and arrogantly thought that the "less fortunate" had character flaws and were lazy and unwilling to work hard. Maybe it is "karma" or providence, but the last decade has given me an attitude adjustment.

My heart goes out to other Americans who have suffered a similar fate, especially those with families.


----------



## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

11-B said:


> Tell us how much better you will be after Nov 2nd. Exactly what is going to change overnight that will get your six vans back on the street….


Big business is holding onto more than $1 Trillion in cash. Its mostly in hi-tech. Executive management doesn't like where America is going, they are going B.F. Skinner style on us.


----------



## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

HARRY304E said:


> :laughing:
> :laughing::laughing::laughing:


Honest to GAWD, I speak from experience there Harry. I don't drink any more because my doc says NO WAY! :no:


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

doubleoh7 said:


> My heart goes out to other Americans who have suffered a similar fate, especially those with families.


ya me too


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

miller_elex said:


> Honest to GAWD, I speak from experience there Harry. I don't drink any more because my doc says NO WAY! :no:



No soup for you!!!:laughing::laughing::laughing:


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

miller_elex said:


> Honest to GAWD, I speak from experience there Harry.


You have been married to a dude before? 

:laughing:


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> You have been married to a dude before?
> 
> :laughing:


:lol::lol::lol::lol:


----------



## 11-B (Oct 9, 2010)

B.F. Skinner....hope not

My heart goes out to other Americans who have suffered a similar fate, especially those with families.

Me too


Political grid lock is the best climate for business. It safe nothing get done.....


----------



## doubleoh7 (Dec 5, 2009)

Jlarson said:


> You have been married to a dude before?
> 
> :laughing:


 
Might be a way to get health insurance.:laughing::laughing::laughing:


----------



## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Jlarson said:


> You have been married to a dude before?
> :laughing:


 I knew my joke would backfire!!


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

doubleoh7 said:


> Might be a way to get health insurance.


Wasn't that in a movie? :laughing:


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

11-B said:


> B.F. Skinner....hope not
> 
> My heart goes out to other Americans who have suffered a similar fate, especially those with families.
> 
> ...


I agree :thumbup: see just when you thought you got me:laughing::laughing::laughing:


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> Wasn't that in a movie? :laughing:


Must have been


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

miller_elex said:


> I knew my joke would backfire!!


:laughing::laughing:


----------



## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

11-B said:


> B.F. Skinner....hope not..


 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning

On a larger scale.


----------



## doubleoh7 (Dec 5, 2009)

It doesn't matter what happens Tuesday. A year from now the economy will be in much worse shape than it is now. No one on either side will address the problems that have brought working Americans to their knees. They won't fix the problems because their corporate masters do not want that.


----------



## 11-B (Oct 9, 2010)

Harry, you say you’re a free market republican.

But then you post this:


HARRY304E
*IBEW Looking at lowering the cost of labor*

Click this link and read this .http://www.theblaze.com/stories/epip...too-expensive/. This is a very bad idea. 

Kinda like sarah palin, as soon as her daughter got knocked up by Levi. Old Sarah saw to it that Levi got a good job on the north slope as an apprentice. And to add to that Sarah only gave it up her self when she met a man with a good union job.


----------



## doubleoh7 (Dec 5, 2009)

11-B said:


> Harry, you say you’re a free market republican.
> 
> But then you post this:
> 
> ...


 
She is just an empty skirt. No new ideas.


----------



## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

doubleoh7 said:


> It doesn't matter what happens Tuesday.


People will keep moving to the cities where there is work. End of story.


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

11-B said:


> Harry, you say you’re a free market republican.
> 
> But then you post this:
> 
> ...


20101101-03:58 EDT

That shows how you don't have a grip on the real world :no:
but you are good with your digging up info to cut peoples throught's
this proves you are laking in carrikter and in fact evil and that make you the perfact democrat .. why dont you read about their history it is truly sad start in the 1860's and read forword it will blow your little mind

Oh when i started that thred i was stiking up for the union guys that was my intetion.

Don't like my spelling too bad
i am an Electrician not a jounalist:laughing:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

ATT all et posters this 11-B poster wiil use your word against you he is doing it in other threads.http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/7524959/

http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/7525381/

Creepy dude


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## 11-B (Oct 9, 2010)

Oh, Henry....

Exactly what is it that I posted that shows I don’t have a grip on the real world?


Everything you just quoted/I posted is true.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

11-B said:


> Oh, Henry....
> 
> Exactly what is it that I posted that shows I don’t have a grip on the real world?
> 
> ...


20101101-04:11EDT
your a creep dude
you make vidieo's of other peoples posts

your a screw ball buddy get a life you tekno moonbat


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## doubleoh7 (Dec 5, 2009)

I think that I am just going to start making up some sh*t. I'll just try to liven things up and see if we can't get this thread closed.:laughing:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

doubleoh7 said:


> I think that I am just going to start making up some sh*t. I'll just try to liven things up and see if we can't get this thread closed.:laughing:


let him sink his own ship:laughing:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

11-B said:


> Oh, Henry....
> 
> Exactly what is it that I posted that shows I don’t have a grip on the real world?
> 
> ...



Creepy dude!


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## 11-B (Oct 9, 2010)

Harry, it's true, all that stuff is true you know it. 

As soon as Sarah palins daughter got knocked up Sarah got Levi a job as an apprentice. 

As soon as Sarah lost the election Levi got fired because he did not have a high school degree. Sarah was using string arm politics to get Levi a “good job”.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

11-B said:


> Harry, it's true, all that stuff is true you know it.
> 
> As soon as Sarah palins daughter got knocked up Sarah got Levi a job as an apprentice.
> 
> As soon as Sarah lost the election Levi got fired because he did not have a high school degree. Sarah was using string arm politics to get Levi a “good job”.


 
HA HA Ha ! that all you have is your ugely stupid whackjob crap.:laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## 11-B (Oct 9, 2010)

HARRY304E said:


> Creepy dude!


Oh Harry...that sounds like something a girl would say.

You a little light in the loafers? I thought you said you were in business for 30 years.


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## 11-B (Oct 9, 2010)

Here ya go Harry

http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/7524401

http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/7525381


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## JacksonburgFarmer (Jul 5, 2008)

slickvic277 said:


> What's a Jackleg?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

Slick.....


Round here a jackleg is a PC term for the following: Moron, [email protected], dipsh!t, etc. and so on.

What I am saying is that no two people are worth the same money per hour. An employer may choose to pay on "levels" for simplicity, but I have not ever seen to employees worth the same exact amount of money. If you feel you are worth more than you are paid, and the boss dosent agree....you have to find a boss whom does. If you CANT, you are going to have to go on your OWN. That is the only ways that I know of. 

Just because a man thinks he is worth X amount, dosent mean he is. A state enforced law that says electricain JW shall make $XXX is bullcrap. If a employer has an employee who is worth more than they pay him, they stand to loose said employee if he finds a better job, or decides to go on his own. They either poney up the money, or risk loosing him. 

What I find strange is that everyone wants laws to ensure their pay, but if you earned what you were worth the cream will rise to the top, and the scum will settle to the bottom. If you are worth what you are paid, really truely worth what you are paid, you will rise to the top. If not, down you will go, or out the door. I think that most are scared that they would loose their happy butt if it wasnt for big brother watching out for them. I myself, would be just fine.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

JacksonburgFarmer said:


> A state enforced law that says electricain JW shall make $XXX is bullcrap. If a employer has an employee who is worth more than they pay him, they stand to loose said employee if he finds a better job, or decides to go on his own. They either poney up the money, or risk loosing him.


If the davis-bacon wage is xxx and you cannot find hands that are worth xxx, then yyy contractor who has the guys who are worth xxx, is going to get the job.

You non-union folks, as soon as you gain any kind of competency, want to strike out on your own. That makes it difficult to bring enough big egos together to complete a davis-bacon job. The non-union contractors who have the quality guys, are getting the davis-bacon work, as much work as they can do. Stop whining you can't efficiently bring in a herd of whipping-boys and migrants on prevailing wage, you can still do the small jobs as a one man shop and bring in what the big contractors charge.

As for standing to lose a good employee to another contractor paying better wages, the IEC likes to loan furloughed employees between companies to keep men from looking for work, which also keeps wages suppressed.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

No one has addressed the fact that Davis Bacon SCREWs the taxpayers and dose nothing to improve job quality. 

Davis Bacon is a lose lose.

Miller.

The most knowledgable electricians often make the worse business owners, the statement you made about open shop's best starting on their own, is a factual as someone saying all union labor are lazy slackers, JUST NOT TRUE.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

brian john said:


> the statement you made about open shop's best starting on their own, is a factual as someone saying all union labor are lazy slackers, JUST NOT TRUE.


I said competent. Competency in more than just electrical. You're right, here there is only a few big non-union commercial shops. One is all relatives who broke off from the union, and the other two are break offs from union shops (multiple PM's).

What I seen in my time non-union was the lifer foremen buying a stake in the company. It works really great, when things are going great...

I really don't know how open shop business works in a place where the union has no clout, so please school me on the way it's really supposed to work. I have an open mind, and am open to ways that improve, both sides. Bonuses are hush hush company secret, but I have no secrets, and everybody is here to learn, lay it on thick B.John.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

miller_elex said:


> What I seen in my time non-union was the lifer foremen buying a stake in the company. It works really great, when things are going great...
> .


I would think the want to be your own boss is equal between the union and open shops, after all people are people unless:

Those in the union are, as SOME say in need of protection and are not man enough to stand up in the real world? I DOUBT THIS.

The local is not conducive to letting new firms organize, they have no world rules or high start up cost that deter new start-ups. This is not uncommon in SOME locals.

There may be other reasons such as the area you are in only has large industrial institutions that are in bed with one or a few large shops.


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