# Romex for 277/480 ?



## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

Can you ???


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

read what it says on the romex sheath. read your codebook. you make the call.


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## Roger. (Dec 18, 2011)

Cletis said:


> Can you ???


 Tell the members what you think and how you arrived at your answer and someone will help you find the answer if you are wrong.

Roger


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## CanadianSparky (May 10, 2011)

I was actually starting to think that you were becoming less of a hack.....guess i was wrong lol


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

277v. ? Ive never done it. Dont be reading anything into it...


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Cletis said:


> Can you ???


NO you can't it is only good for 600 volts...


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

Thats OK Cletis - I'll be your cheering section.


Give Me a " T"

Give Me a " R"

Give Me a " O"

Give Me a "L"

Give Me a " L "

Put it together and what do you have ?

CLETIS !


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

Cletis, have you ever considered going back to selling amway again?:thumbsup:


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

That was a yes or no question


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Cletis said:


> That was a yes or no question


:yes::no:


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

HARRY304E said:


> :yes::no:


Yes OR No harry


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

Cletis said:


> Yes OR No harry



Peter D. Yes or No?


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Cletis said:


> Yes OR No harry


both.....


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Cletis said:


> That was a yes or no question


Like i said romex is good for 600 volts so you should know the answer.


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

Cletis,

Are you Peter D?


Yes or No.


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

Maybe


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

:sleep1:


Cletis said:


> Maybe


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

Cletis said:


> Maybe



I think it's time you come clean with fellow forum members. You would be more respected for being honest.:thumbsup:


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

Let me have a couple more beers and ponder that. Ill get back with you shortly...


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

HARRY304E said:


> :sleep1:


:laughing:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Chris1971 said:


> :laughing:


:laughing:


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

HARRY304E said:


> :laughing:


:laughing:


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## RobRoy (Aug 6, 2009)

Romex® SIMpull® Type NMD90 cable may be used for both exposed work in dry locations or concealed work in dry or damp locations. The maximum allowable conductor temperature is 90°C.* The minimum recommended installation temperature is minus 25° C for two-conductor cables, and minus 10°C for three-conductor cables (with suitable handling procedures). Material should be properly stored above 0°C for 24 hours prior to installation. The maximum voltage rating for all intended applications is 300 volts. :no:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

robroy952 said:


> Romex® SIMpull® Type NMD90 cable may be used for both exposed work in dry locations or concealed work in dry or damp locations. The maximum allowable conductor temperature is 90°C.* The minimum recommended installation temperature is minus 25° C for two-conductor cables, and minus 10°C for three-conductor cables (with suitable handling procedures). Material should be properly stored above 0°C for 24 hours prior to installation. The maximum voltage rating for all intended applications is 300 volts. :no:


Do you have a link to that?



> *300.2 Limitations.*
> (A) Voltage. Wiring methods specified in Chapter 3 shall
> be used for 600 volts, nominal, or less where not specifically
> limited in some section of Chapter 3. They shall be
> ...


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## RobRoy (Aug 6, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> Do you have a link to that?


http://www.southwire.com/products/RomexSIMpullTypeNMD90OEM.htm

http://www.southwire.com/romex.htm
:laughing::blink:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

The above was for NM-D, Lets try this one for NM-B which is what we use.

http://www.southwire.com/products/RomexSIMpullTypeNMBOEM.htm



> Applications
> 
> Southwire’s Romex® SIMpull® Type NM-B (non-metallic sheathed cable) may be used for both exposed and concealed work in normally dry locations at temperatures not to exceed 90°C (with ampacity limited to that for 60°C conductors) as specified in the National Electrical Code1 NM-B cable is primarily used in residential wiring as branch circuits for outlets, switches, and other loads. NM-B cable may be run in air voids of masonry block or tile walls where such walls are not subject to excessive moisture or dampness. *Voltage rating for NM-B cable is 600 volts.*


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

methinks the architects and engineers dictating MC and/or emt in commercial work have regulated romex to residential by proxy....~CS~


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*G*

Ah, great news this morning. So, basically if the rules (or specs) allow it we could use NM-B for the 2 voltages? 

Now, part 2. 

Would you ever use it, or do you know someone who did for 277V or 480V, or have you ever seen it on those applications (NM-B)???


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Cletis said:


> Now, part 2.
> 
> Would you ever use it, or do you know someone who did for 277V or 480V, or have you ever seen it on those applications (NM-B)???


I have used it, I will use it again and have seen it used in likely hundreds of buildings.

12/3 NM runs small 3 phase 480 volt loads very well.:thumbsup:


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

Cletis said:


> Ah, great news this morning. So, basically if the rules (or specs) allow it we could use NM-B for the 2 voltages?
> 
> Now, part 2.
> 
> Would you ever use it, or do you know someone who did for 277V or 480V, or have you ever seen it on those applications (NM-B)???


 

3 questions 3 answers 

:yes: :yes: :yes:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Not my work, or the companies I have worked for but many of those are 277 and 480 circuits.

Enjoy


































































Now .......... how many of you just threw up a little bit?:laughing:


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

I threw up a tad...

I used romex once for 277 lighting in a small warehouse with offices back in the summer of 1994. Inspector told my boss he couldn't use it after it was all installed. My boss ripped the inspector a new a-hole and the romex stayed. Thats when I learned inspectors a lot of times are dumb.


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*use*

Wow, that even made me sick. I would personally not use it (unless someone paid me really alot of money). More for the someone driving a 4" nail to hang a pic in an office and puncture the 277V NM going to the office lighting circuit. So, protection for me. 

That was a crazy pic. That's something only like Chris1971 or Peter D. would do?


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

Think they derated for bundling ??


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

I personally don't like the idea,but have done it under duress.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

robroy952 said:


> http://www.southwire.com/products/RomexSIMpullTypeNMD90OEM.htm
> 
> http://www.southwire.com/romex.htm
> :laughing::blink:


So you guys in California are using Canadian Romex?....


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## jmsmith (Sep 10, 2011)

HARRY304E said:


> So you guys in California are using Canadian Romex?....


Harry....
Hate to tell you this, but LOWES is for more than the HO these days!!!!
:lol: Have a good one.....


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## eric7379 (Jan 5, 2010)

BBQ said:


> Not my work, or the companies I have worked for but many of those are 277 and 480 circuits.
> 
> Enjoy
> 
> ...


 
I just got done eating my dinner and my stomach lurched a bit. I personally would not do it unless I had to, but as long as it is per code and is acceptable to use per the mfr's specs, then :thumbsup:!


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

jmsmith said:


> Harry....
> Hate to tell you this, but LOWES is for more than the HO these days!!!!
> :lol: Have a good one.....


Thanks i never knew that..:blink::blink::laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## RobRoy (Aug 6, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> So you guys in California are using Canadian Romex?....


That was south wires website. It says Made in America on the bottom of the page. :blink::whistling2:

I probably shouldn't have chimed in on this thread, as I am an industrial electrician, and don't even use emt anymore.


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## Semi-Ret Electrician (Nov 10, 2011)

Cletis, you did it again.

334.10 Uses Permitted. 
Type NM, Type NMC, and Type NMS cables shall be permitted to be used in the following: 

(1)







One- and two-family dwellings and their attached or detached garages, and their storage buildings. 

As long as the voltage remains under 600V and the install is in one of the above and it's conformal wiring and not installed above an accessable ceiling etc, etc.:laughing:

I must say I always have to break open the books after one of your posts.


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## Rockin (Jan 15, 2012)

*Article 334 -Uses Permitted*

Articles 334.10 (uses permitted) & 334.12 (Uses NOT permitted) tell you what you need to know. 334.10 talks about building types III,IV,& V. These are buildings with some form of combustible framing. Since I don't know under what context your simple question falls, here is a summary of building types:
Type I: Steel Frame
Type II: Non-combustible framing (Masonry, etc)
Type III: Masonry load bearing walls with combustible framing
Type IV: Heavy timber (log cabin I presume)
Type V: Other combustible load bearing walls

A concise answer to your question is that Romex is allowed for:
1) One and Two family buildings regardless of building frame type.
2) Multifamily dwellings with exceptions (334.12) for types III, IV, & V
3) Other types of occupancy with exceptions (334.12) for types III, IV, & V 
provided it's kept in thermal rated walls, floors, and ceiling spaces or run 
in cable trays.
4) Buildings of type I & II where installed within approved raceways.

Hope this helps


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## RobRoy (Aug 6, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Not my work, or the companies I have worked for but many of those are 277 and 480 circuits.
> 
> Enjoy
> 
> ...


Is this in a spaghetti factory?:thumbup:


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## jmsmith (Sep 10, 2011)

robroy952 said:


> That was south wires website. It says Made in America on the bottom of the page. :blink::whistling2:
> 
> I probably shouldn't have chimed in on this thread, as I am an industrial electrician, and don't even use emt anymore.


That's alright... I am sure that you have been places where rigid isn't even a guarantee against physical damage. :lol:
Been there, done that... No such thing as "idiot-proof"! :laughing:


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## rdr (Oct 25, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> So you guys in California are using Canadian Romex?....


Why is it Canadian romex? Because it's CSA approved as the logo suggests at the bottom? It's also UL approved.

You'll notice that on the link at the bottom MC cable is UL approved but not CSA therefore we don't use that. Everything's gotta be CSA approved or if the wrong person sees it their panties get in a real bunch. Hell, even my hard hat and steel toes have that CSA logo (approval). In theory I can't even wear the one I brought up from the states, but I do sometimes anyhow. :shifty:

http://www.southwire.com/products/ARMORLITETypeMCOEM.htm


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## RobRoy (Aug 6, 2009)

jmsmith said:


> That's alright... I am sure that you have been places where rigid isn't even a guarantee against physical damage. :lol:
> Been there, done that... No such thing as "idiot-proof"! :laughing:


Yeah, the rigid does get destroyed. Typically from some dumbåss backing their truck up where it shouldn't be. Breaks at the threads every time.


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## Roger. (Dec 18, 2011)

Semi-Ret Electrician said:


> Cletis, you did it again.
> 
> 334.10 Uses Permitted.
> Type NM, Type NMC, and Type NMS cables shall be permitted to be used in the following:
> ...


 
Where did you get the idea this was in a dwelling unit?

Roger


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Not my work, or the companies I have worked for but many of those are 277 and 480 circuits.
> 
> Enjoy
> 
> ...


 


What type of ceiling did they finish with? Did it meet this:


334.12. Cables
shall be concealed within walls, floors, or ceilings that
provide a thermal barrier of material that has at least a
15-minute finish rating as identified in listings of firerated​assemblies.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> What type of ceiling did they finish with? Did it meet this:
> 
> 
> 334.12. Cables
> ...


No ceiling and this work was done before the NEC traded the 3 story limitation with the above ceiling restrictions.


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*humm*



Rockin said:


> Articles 334.10 (uses permitted) & 334.12 (Uses NOT permitted) tell you what you need to know. 334.10 talks about building types III,IV,& V. These are buildings with some form of combustible framing. Since I don't know under what context your simple question falls, here is a summary of building types:
> Type I: Steel Frame
> Type II: Non-combustible framing (Masonry, etc)
> Type III: Masonry load bearing walls with combustible framing
> ...




Thanks rockin. That's weird. It wasn't so cut and dried like some thought....hummmm? :whistling2:


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## MasterE (Dec 31, 2011)

How about 334.30 ,, Securing and Supporting,, It did not look like it was secured every 4.5 ft


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## Roger. (Dec 18, 2011)

Cletis said:


> Thanks rockin. That's weird. It wasn't so cut and dried like some thought....hummmm? :whistling2:


It's very "cut and dry" of where it can be used but that wasn't your question, your question was concerning voltage limitations and the voltages you are asking about has limitations as to where they can be used. With that said, how about telling us where that is covered.

Roger


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## caseyelectric (Oct 19, 2008)

Cletis said:


> Ah, great news this morning. So, basically if the rules (or specs) allow it we could use NM-B for the 2 voltages?
> 
> Now, part 2.
> 
> Would you ever use it, or do you know someone who did for 277V or 480V, or have you ever seen it on those applications (NM-B)???


 I know of a medical facility that has 277 lighting circuits run with romex. The structure itself is built like a house though it never was one. All circuits in that building are romex, bout 12 years old, and was inspected when built.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

Cletis said:


> Wow, that even made me sick. I would personally not use it (unless someone paid me really alot of money). More for the someone driving a 4" nail to hang a pic in an office and puncture the 277V NM going to the office lighting circuit. So, protection for me.


From my observations, MC and Romex are basically the same thing as far as physical protection goes. I mean, that flimsy aluminum sheath couldn't stop a thumbtack, let alone a screw or nail. It just won't burn the like the plastic on Romex. That's the only advantage I see that it has.


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*slight*

I see it as slightly better for frontal impacts and much better for deflections of nails and such due to it's low coefficient of friction


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## Semi-Ret Electrician (Nov 10, 2011)

Cletis said:


> I see it as slightly better for frontal impacts and much better for deflections of nails and such due to it's low coefficient of friction


Also, MC seems much better than NM if raked over a sharp edge such as a hole in a metal stud or AC duct. 

When AFCI's first came out I had a class I was teaching teaching drive staples and crushing NM and MC to see if we could get the parallel AFCI to trip when the standard would not.

We would megger the cables etc. 

One observation was that we could beat the stew out of MC much more than NM before it showed any sign of electrical failure. It admittedly was a low budget, un-scientific experiment, but an eye-opener none the less.


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

*277V Bulbs*

Anybody else run into these?
At a local University they have a lobby with 277V incandescent bulbs in *recessed lights* (scratch) Memory kicked in,more like key less with guards above a decorative ceiling grid..
Old from maybe the '70s. They still have cases of them for replacement.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

Semi-Ret Electrician said:


> Also, MC seems much better than NM if raked over a sharp edge such as a hole in a metal stud or AC duct.
> 
> When AFCI's first came out I had a class I was teaching teaching drive staples and crushing NM and MC to see if we could get the parallel AFCI to trip when the standard would not.
> 
> ...


True it is better protected during installation, but that wasn't my point. On a finished wall, where someone is hanging a picture, I can't see MC offering much better puncture protection than romex.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

InPhase277 said:


> ...On a finished wall, where someone is hanging a picture, I can't see MC offering much better puncture protection than romex.


 I think in a case where the MC and NM can move, if they're fished for example, then a nail or screw would have a better chance of pushing the MC out of the way where it might grab the NM. But when strapped tight, I agree, MC Lite ain't gonna be stopping nails any time soon.

-John


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*Yes*



InPhase277 said:


> True it is better protected during installation, but that wasn't my point. On a finished wall, where someone is hanging a picture, I can't see MC offering much better puncture protection than romex.


You have to use the patented romex strap to hold the mc...:whistling2:



Big John said:


> I think in a case where the MC and NM can move, if they're fished for example, then a nail or screw would have a better chance of pushing the MC out of the way where it might grab the NM. But when strapped tight, I agree, MC Lite ain't gonna be stopping nails any time soon.
> 
> -John


Yes. Don't make the staples tight or use the romex strap method to give it some flexibility for nail impact flexation


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

caseyelectric said:


> I know of a medical facility that has 277 lighting circuits run with romex. The structure itself is built like a house though it never was one. All circuits in that building are romex, bout 12 years old, and was inspected when built.


If it is a medical facility with patient care areas then the NM cable is not allowed in the patient care areas. I looked as far back as the 1990 NEC and it is there 517.13 ( B) 
So the rule has been in place for at least 21 years


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

WTF? I thought it was a damn good question.


In my life, romex is only good for resi. I have learned that they wire commercial building with it in places like in Hazzard County but I never thought about if there was a _high _voltage issue.


480V on romex seems super wrong


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

220/221 said:


> 480V on romex seems super wrong


Says the guy with zero experience with it. :laughing:


Since about 1997 I have been servicing many large commercial jobs wired with NM, MC and pipe. I don't see more failures with the NM jobs. I am not making this up, it is the Gods honest truth and a lot of it was run really badly .....































........ and yet it still does not fail. 

I am not saying the above pictures are right, I am just saying that even when installed by an asshole NM still keeps going.


Yes, I have seen NM failure, juts like I have seen MC and EMT fails.

Far and away the most common wiring method failure we respond to are indoor underground / in slab raceways that the THHN has failed do to floor cleaning products getting down into the raceways.


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## caseyelectric (Oct 19, 2008)

manchestersparky said:


> If it is a medical facility with patient care areas then the NM cable is not allowed in the patient care areas. I looked as far back as the 1990 NEC and it is there 517.13 ( B)
> So the rule has been in place for at least 21 years


The only MC or EMT in the building is what I installed, other than the PVC conduit feeders to the main panels.


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

(BBQ) "Since about 1997 I have been servicing many large commercial jobs wired"

You that smart in that short-a-Time??!!!!:thumbsup:

BTW- Thanx for all your posts and insight !! :thumbup:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

leland said:


> (BBQ) "Since about 1997 I have been servicing many large commercial jobs wired"


:laughing:

I know that is not that long, I did construction and other stuff before then. But in 97 or so it became almost full time service of large supermarkets or large retail in our area and a great many of those places are NM and 480 volt services.


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

BBQ said:


> :laughing:
> 
> I know that is not that long, I did construction and other stuff before then. But in 97 or so it became almost full time service of large supermarkets or large retail in our area and a great many of those places are NM and 480 volt services.



14 Years aint that short- when exposed to 'things'. :thumbsup:
Amazing what one can learn in a short time doing 'service' work!


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## jmsmith (Sep 10, 2011)

BBQ said:


> :laughing:
> 
> I know that is not that long, I did construction and other stuff before then. But in 97 or so it became almost full time service of large supermarkets or large retail in our area and a great many of those places are NM and 480 volt services.


About ten years ago I worked for an outfit that were doing Wally-World upgrades... Looks like the electricians that did all that had done it for Wal-Mart, too... Brought back some "fond" memories!!!
 :lol:
Have a good one, BBQ.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

BBQ said:


> Says the guy with zero experience with it. :laughing:


 
35 plus years son :thumbup:



Your logic is again flawed. You assume that since I don't install 480 circuits with romex that I don't have experience?

I have experience with romex and I have experience with 480v circuits. Just like I have experience with SE cable and I have experience with service conductors.

I don't need to combine the two things for some kind of mystical enlightenment.

That's like saying that you can't comment on jumping out of a plane with no parachute. If you have some experience with gravity and it's relationship to height, you can calculate the risk and don't actually need to do it.


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

220/221 said:


> That's like saying that you can't comment on jumping out of a plane with no parachute.


You don't need a parachute to jump out of an airplane... you only need a parachute to do it twice.:jester:

Pete


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

220/221 said:


> 35 plus years son :thumbup:


I know you are very experienced in many things that I am not. Running a business for instance.





> Your logic is again flawed. You assume that since I don't install 480 circuits with romex that I don't have experience?


No I don't assume you don't have experience with electrical work or many other things but I know you don't have the experience to comment with any real knowledge about how well or well not NM works with 480 volt circuits.

You may not like that, but it is a fact. 





> I don't need to combine the two things for some kind of mystical enlightenment.


I claim no mystic enlightenment, I claim real world, first hand knowledge of how well it works. I deal withoit all the time. More often than you use a big bushing on a service change. 





> That's like saying that you can't comment on jumping out of a plane with no parachute. If you have some experience with gravity and it's relationship to height, you can calculate the risk and don't actually need to do it.


No it is not like that. 

Jumping out of a plane without a chute has a very predictable and well known by all outcome.

How well NM works for 480 circuits is not such common knowledge. 

Let me ask you this, you run a company, I run part of a company and see how the others in the office around me work.

Does that mean I have as much knowledge of running a company as you do?

Nope.


But hell, I have never changed your mind about anything yet so it is what it is.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> I know you don't have the experience to comment with any real knowledge about how well or well not NM works with 480 volt circuits.
> 
> You may not like that, but it is a fact.


 
No, that's a supposition. You need to hone your debating skills. Simply saying something doesn't make it a fact.


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## amptech (Sep 21, 2007)

While you may assume it is a supposition, it is a reasonable supposition since the product has been tested, listed and approved for the use. With so much of it out there being used to distribute 277/480V I would think the National Pipe Institute would be all over its prohibition if there were even the hint of reasonable concern that it wasn't safe.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

amptech said:


> While you may assume it is a supposition, it is a reasonable supposition since the product has been tested, listed and approved for the use. With so much of it out there being used to distribute 277/480V I would think the National Pipe Institute would be all over its prohibition if there were even the hint of reasonable concern that it wasn't safe.


 
The product has also been tested and disapproved in many cases. I don't have any facts but I'll go out on a limb and say, in most cases, it's not allowed. The NEC is behind the times on a couple issues like this.


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## amptech (Sep 21, 2007)

220/221 said:


> The product has also been tested and disapproved in many cases. I don't have any facts but I'll go out on a limb and say, in most cases, it's not allowed. The NEC is behind the times on a couple issues like this.


Well, like you stated in an earlier post, just because you said it doesn't mean it is a fact. I have worked all over the midwest over the last 25 years and I don't know of anywhere it has been disapproved for use with 277/480V with the exception of places that don't allow NM cable to be used for any voltage. Like Bob, I've seen it used in a lot of supermarkets and other retail stores. For the record, it would not be my choice to use it for 277/480V.


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

Im confused now.....so it's ok ???


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## Roger. (Dec 18, 2011)

Cletis said:


> Im confused now.....so it's ok ???


 Yes, the only voltages it can not be used with is 220/221, it is safe for all other voltages up to 600 volts.

Roger


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

:laughing:


When 480 fails, I want it enclosed in something.


Going to the state fair gives me the creeps with all the presumably high voltage extension cords strung everywhere by carneys.


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