# Estimate This - Outdoor Lts. & Rec.



## Kaffeene (Feb 11, 2014)

So I've seen a few "Estimate & Price This Out" topics, so I'd like to post one of my own. :thumbsup:

I've had my business a few years, but I sometimes wonder if I'm pricing within reason for both the customer and myself.
So far I haven't lost my shirt on any jobs, I almost always make a profit and the customers don't usually complain about the price. 


So this job is a very large front yard with new 4-driveway lights and 5-receptacle outlets being installed. About 100ft. from the house to the street. And about 100-110' across the front of the property from left to right
I'm pricing out running a combination of 1" & 3/4" sched40 PVC (about 350' total combined length), 10awg THHN with a limited amount of 12awg THHN. 20Amp multi-wire branch circuit from the panel in the garage, through veneer stone foundation then to various points in the yard for...

4 - new driveway pier mounted luminairs (fixture provided by customer) 
5 - GFCI receptacles in Arlington Gard 'n' Posts w/ in-use covers. 

Both circuits for lights and receptacles will be switched in the garage by Honeywell digital timers $35 ea.. The garage main load center is full so I'm hoping it can accept a couple tandems to make room for the double pole 20A. 

I'm also running in an additional 100' of vacant 1" PVC to the end of the driveway for future low voltage (possibly a camera and/or intercom).

**All the trenches, including the driveway cutting, are being excavated and filled by another contractor.
**There will be a permit and I will most likely have to wait for the inspector for the trench and final. 

I figure myself & another guy about 2.5 days, maybe 3 days w/ any issues, Installing pvc conduit, pvc j-boxes, THHN, GFCI outlets w/ gard n posts, 4 pier lights on stone top driveway pillars and interior wiring to switches & panel. Plus waiting for inspector, possibly twice.
Hopefully customer can get light fixtures in time for me to not have to make an additional trip. 


Here's my drawing,


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

Kaffeene said:


> So I've seen a few "Estimate & Price This Out" topics, so I'd like to post one of my own. :thumbsup:
> 
> I've had my business a few years, but I sometimes wonder if I'm pricing within reason for both the customer and myself.
> *So far I haven't lost my shirt on any jobs, I almost always make a profit and the customers don't usually complain about the price. *


I didn't even read the rest and I very rarely post any numbers for "price this out threads"....but the bold highlighted text tells me that you're already doing things right.


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## Kaffeene (Feb 11, 2014)

Yeah, so far I think I'm pricing accurate most of the time. I used to under-estimate. After almost always encountering unforeseen issues and delays that I did not account for, I now try to include extra time for things and it evens out now.


BTW I really like this forum so far, for the time I've been spending on it lately.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

$3-4K at first sniff Kaff....and why bother with the 3/4"?

~CS~


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## Kaffeene (Feb 11, 2014)

chicken steve said:


> $3-4K at first sniff Kaff....and why bother with the 3/4"?
> 
> ~CS~


Ya know, I actually went back and forth between the sizes. 3/4 is really enough for the run, but because of the distance of the pull I went with 1" for the extra long runs. 

Definitely 3/4 from the boxes to the arlington gard n post because the KO's are maxed at that size. Of course I could use reducers, but I'll probably just stay 1" to the light fixtures and 3/4" to the receptacles.


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

Kaffeene said:


> Yeah, so far I think I'm pricing accurate most of the time. I used to under-estimate. After almost always encountering unforeseen issues and delays that I did not account for, I now try to include extra time for things and it evens out now.
> 
> 
> BTW I really like this forum so far, for the time I've been spending on it lately.


 
I always try to allow an additional 15 to 20% for the _unforeseen _issues. If you don't get the job then you can't lose money on it.


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## Kaffeene (Feb 11, 2014)

chicken steve said:


> .and why bother with the 3/4"?
> 
> ~CS~


Actually I meant to say... "to save $1 per 10ft. for my retirement fund".


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

ah..._egg_zactly why i'll get the _tired _part of retirement Kaff.....~CS~:no:


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Increase your prices until they squeal. Then back it off a notch.


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## Jmiester (Apr 8, 2015)

Kaffeene
I did a large driveway job a few years ago and the one thing that I would do is to pull an extra neutral so you do not have any nuiscance tripping on the multi. I would also maybe pull a 14 as a pull wire along with all your piping and make sure there is plenty of wire lube used. After the job was done there was more things that they wanted to add. It was nice to do a quick pull of extra conductors. You have a nice sketch and it is nice to keep with a job file with benchmark measurements in case you have to break into a pipe somewhere and add something or if the homeowners call you to ask where things are because they are going to be doing more landscaping projects....more outlets, switching$$.


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## 3xdad (Jan 25, 2011)

Sometimes it's nice to have an excavator take all the risk on the ditches. You don't even have to show up until they repair everything they blew right threw and the ditches are clean.

BTW, what program for the drawing?


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## Kaffeene (Feb 11, 2014)

I started working with a reputable landscape contractor, and it's great, no more ditch digging. 




3xdad said:


> BTW, what program for the drawing?


Dennis A. asked me the same thing about a previous drawing I did. 
Actually, just using MS Paint to the max. I wish I had something better.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

Kaffeene said:


> I started working with a reputable landscape contractor, and it's great, no more ditch digging.


That must be nice. What are you doing mostly? Water features and landscape lighting?


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## Kaffeene (Feb 11, 2014)

Landscape lighting, plus driveway piers and backyard kitchens. Post lights and re-feeding a detached garage.


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## Greg Sparkovich (Sep 15, 2007)

I would have said $4,000 (depends a LOT on how useful your helpers are ...if you can get someone good for connections/finish and add 2 newbies just for a day of pipe laying and pulls, you can lower the price and make more.
I agree with Jmeister; pull some extra wire for future changes ...so don't use right angle corners, use bends.

Also, if I wasn't crazy about the customer, I'd play it safer at $5K.
If I think I can bid freely, I often bid really high and then charge less. This creates unbeatable customer loyalty and word of mouth. Everyone loves telling a story about how they got a great price or a deal. People who listen to stories want to know about the contractor who charged less than his/her estimate.


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## Kaffeene (Feb 11, 2014)

I almost always use a PVC heater for bends and sweeps. I have the nice GreenLee unit.

I'm going to change my plan to include all 1" PVC except when going to the GFCI receptacles. I'm also going to pull an extra 2 conductors. (hot & neutral) to the 2 pull boxes at the bottom of the driveway. This way I can have 2 separate circuits on single pole breakers, with the possibility of adding a future multi-wire circuit if needed.


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## 3xdad (Jan 25, 2011)

Greg Sparkovich said:


> Also, if I wasn't crazy about the customer, I'd play it safer at $5K.
> If I think I can bid freely, I often bid really high and then charge less. This creates unbeatable customer loyalty and word of mouth. Everyone loves telling a story about how they got a great price or a deal. People who listen to stories want to know about the contractor who charged less than his/her estimate.


i'd like to know more about this method. i wish i could show up and just give them an "estimate" and win the job.

i "bid" stating in detail exactly what they will get and exactly what they pay.

What happens if you have a customer that is expecting you to charge less than your estimate and you don't, or do you ever charge more because it was just an estimate?


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## Kaffeene (Feb 11, 2014)

Well I've estimated about $1830 for material (this includes 20% extra).
500' PVC, PVC fittings, 5-PVC boxes, glue/primer
10awg THHN, 12awg THHN
Breakers & tandems, 2-digital timers, boxes, NM cable from panel
5-Gard n Posts, 5-WR GFCI's, 5- in-use covers
Misc. hardware


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## Greg Sparkovich (Sep 15, 2007)

3xdad said:


> i'd like to know more about this method. i wish i could show up and just give them an "estimate" and win the job.
> 
> i "bid" stating in detail exactly what they will get and exactly what they pay.
> 
> What happens if you have a customer that is expecting you to charge less than your estimate and you don't, or do you ever charge more because it was just an estimate?


First of all, I don't want to hijack this thread, since it is about someone else's job and not my bidding style. I say this only because this seems to be a hot topic on the board. So, I'll answer briefly and ask you or anyone else to please PM me or ask me to comment on another thread where you think I would have appropriate input. I love talking about running businesses, just not on this thread.

Simply put, I don't sell my job on price alone. I sell myself. All my Angie's List ratings are "A", and all my Yelp ratings are 5 stars. From what I can tell, people call me already knowing that they want to hire me. All I have to do is let them know that their hunch was right, I'm awesome. Lol
I have a 1 page "note" which I send to customers explaining how I estimate and honestly stating that if I do well (eg. I estimate a $1000 and the job ends up only being worth $800) I'm willing to take more as a bonus to myself ($900) and if I do poorly because of my own mistakes (like have to go to the supply store twice) I take a hit. If it's something that I couldn't foresee, I expect to absorb some of that, but not all.
I do free bids on the phone or by email and I am accurate about 70% of the time. For an in-person estimate -which I would insist on doing for a job like Kaffeene's- I generally charge my minimum which it ranges from $100 to $150 depending on distance from my house and parking in their neighborhood (I'm in a city and have enough work that 90% of my work is within 2 miles of my house).
As for charging more or less, about 20 percent of the time, I charge less. And that leaves about 10 percent of the time that I charge more. I tell my customers that when I make my bill, I essentially charge based on the parameters of "not so much that I feel guilty, and not so little that I feel like a fool."
My attitude is that, unless its charity work that I sometimes do, if my customer can't afford to pay for my time and expertise I don't really want them as a customer. If they have faith enough in me to pay what I asked then I am happy to give them a break (if I can).
And yes, I have told people that to their face and no one has ever blinked.

I hope that made sense.
Sorry it was so long!


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## Jack Legg (Mar 12, 2014)

Greg Sparkovich said:


> First of all, I don't want to hijack this thread, since it is about someone else's job and not my bidding style. I say this only because this seems to be a hot topic on the board. So, I'll answer briefly and ask you or anyone else to please PM me or ask me to comment on another thread where you think I would have appropriate input. I love talking about running businesses, just not on this thread.
> 
> Simply put, I don't sell my job on price alone. I sell myself. All my Angie's List ratings are "A", and all my Yelp ratings are 5 stars. From what I can tell, people call me already knowing that they want to hire me. All I have to do is let them know that their hunch was right, I'm awesome. Lol
> I have a 1 page "note" which I send to customers explaining how I estimate and honestly stating that if I do well (eg. I estimate a $1000 and the job ends up only being worth $800) I'm willing to take more as a bonus to myself ($900) and if I do poorly because of my own mistakes (like have to go to the supply store twice) I take a hit. If it's something that I couldn't foresee, I expect to absorb some of that, but not all.
> ...


I will sometimes give a customer a break on the final invoice if things go really well...I don't think I would offer that in advance


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

Kaffeene said:


> Landscape lighting, plus driveway piers and backyard kitchens. Post lights and re-feeding a detached garage.


That's a nice gig. Knock it out of the ballpark. 

:thumbsup:


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

I would be at around $5,500 with excavation by others.


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## Kaffeene (Feb 11, 2014)

sbrn33 said:


> I would be at around $5,500 with excavation by others.


That's actually about where I'm at. Plus I'm going to run in the extra 2 conductors for future. 
I know I have about 2.5 days with 2 guys, 
plus I'm going to have to meet up there again with the contractor to discuss the layout.
I'll have to make a separate trip probably to install the 4 lights only.
And maybe wait there a couple hours for the final inspection.

*That's actually with the permit included.


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