# Flickering lights at my palatial estate...



## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

Hey gang, wanted to hear from the masses on this one..

A few days ago I noticed a flicker in all of my lighting throughout the house...CFL's and the T8 fluorescent very noticeably, the incandescent cans on my AMX dimmer system noticeably, and the other incandescents without dimmers, somewhat noticeable. 

Voltages with and without loads at the main breaker line and load sides are 117-120 L-N and 234-240 L-L and are balanced within 1/2 volt. 

I did a FOP on my main breaker (200a SqD) and got 13mv with a light load (one heater of 1500watts and some lights) and about 28mv with all my heaters (all 240v, total wattage 5300 watts) and the other loads as above running.

I did have an issue with my service drop a while back, the POCO changed the bugs at the transformer and at the weather head (but they left the splice in one of the legs alone). 

The city's well (480/277y service) with a VFD (40hp IIRC) shares the same primary as the pot serving my house..the pots for the well service are two pole spans from mine. 

I suspect an issue with the meter socket or, more likely, the "smart meter" causing this. 

What do you guys think? Main breaker, meter/socket or a noise/harmonics issue from the city well?


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

Is there a rhythm to anything? When I see dimming lights across multiple circuits it is generally a supply - side issue. Sharing a feeder with a well might mean a motor isn't starting or is drawing way too much during startup. Hell, a bad compressor in an A/C at your neighbor's house is enough to flicker your lights.


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

InPhase277 said:


> Is there a rhythm to anything? When I see dimming lights across multiple circuits it is generally a supply - side issue. Sharing a feeder with a well might mean a motor isn't starting or is drawing way too much during startup. Hell, a bad compressor in an A/C at your neighbor's house is enough to flicker your lights.


Yeah the flicker itself is pretty rhythmic, pulsing about once a second or so...also happens at pretty much any time of day, all day..

I am inclined to believe it is a supply side issue, I am at the end of a 20 mile rural 3 phase feeder (34.5/19.9 wye) (I might have the wrong number on the 19kv side) so it is possible we have an issue anywhere along that line that hasn't gone to a hard fault yet. And if the well is having issues, that could easily cause a flicker..I'd have to get the city to cooperate and check out the well system...a difficult proposition at best. 

I will be contacting the POCO on Tuesday hopefully I get a good crew who can use the Beast and make sure my meter socket, drop and transformer are ok.


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## Bootss (Dec 30, 2011)

Meter Jaws?

You checked all your device connections and lighting connections lately?


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

I almost want to bet it is related to the well pump.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Is any chance that the poco do have capaitor bank iin their system ?

And any customers on that grid do have solar panels ??


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Mech Diver said:


> I almost want to bet it is related to the well pump.


Sure sounds it.....~CS~


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

frenchelectrican said:


> Is any chance that the poco do have capaitor bank iin their system ?
> 
> And any customers on that grid do have solar panels ??


He did say anytime, but why solar. Are you thinking the inverter creating ripple? Inverters are very clean power and generally small compared to the loads on a local grid.


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

Lep said:


> Meter Jaws?
> 
> You checked all your device connections and lighting connections lately?


My first suspect and yes. All work in here so far is new (Except for the main breaker and panel).



Mech Diver said:


> I almost want to bet it is related to the well pump.


Very possible...I do know that the well pump runs in cycles depending on the level in the reservoir...it does a full stop when full, and ramps up and down when adding water.

There are so few people here in town so it does stop completely at night, but I am still getting the flicker. 

We have two booster pumps (on contactors and an alternating control) so unless a contactor is bad and chattering they wouldn't (shouldn't) cause any flicker. 



frenchelectrican said:


> Is any chance that the poco do have capaitor bank iin their system ?
> 
> And any customers on that grid do have solar panels ??


No cap banks on the feeder that I am aware of (not with 15 miles anyways) and no solar systems around. (If I could afford it I would put one on this place, would save a lot of money..) 

Hopefully a crew can come out tomorrow to check things out.


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## retiredsparktech (Mar 8, 2011)

Mech Diver said:


> I almost want to bet it is related to the well pump.


 Having a bit of experience in VFD's, I'm a great believer in them, but they can produce some nasty harmonics in the line. The Poco's transformers should minimize any harmonics, in the primary feeders.
The main reason for the VFD is for soft start and speed control, depending on demand. It shouldn't cause any blinking of lights, downstream.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

retiredsparktech said:


> Having a bit of experience in VFD's, I'm a great believer in them, but they can produce some nasty harmonics in the line. The Poco's transformers should minimize any harmonics, in the primary feeders.
> The main reason for the VFD is for soft start and speed control, depending on demand. It shouldn't cause any blinking of lights, downstream.



From the description of the whole lay out and situation I just think the pumps / VFDs are the place to start looking.


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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

When we run into issues like this, we'll put a recording meter right on the line side lugs above the main and leave it for a few days or a week. It gives you solid evidence to show the poco, if it comes down to it.


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

Cow said:


> When we run into issues like this, we'll put a recording meter right on the line side lugs above the main and leave it for a few days or a week. It gives you solid evidence to show the poco, if it comes down to it.


I will look into that when I am "in town" again on Weds. I think, since I have not found any signs of overheating or other hazards so far, doing a recording meter would be a good idea before getting the POCO involved. 

If it shows no voltage issues, but rather large harmonics, that would point to the well (or some other user on our primary feeder). 

Do most recording meters have the ability to "catch" flicker issues? (Never had to use one before..)


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

mxslick said:


> My first suspect and yes. All work in here so far is new (Except for the main breaker and panel).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What do you think solar would cost per watt? I get them for around $2/watt. 2200 watt system should cost me $4500. That's panels, inverter and mounts.


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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

mxslick said:


> I will look into that when I am "in town" again on Weds. I think, since I have not found any signs of overheating or other hazards so far, doing a recording meter would be a good idea before getting the POCO involved.
> 
> If it shows no voltage issues, but rather large harmonics, that would point to the well (or some other user on our primary feeder).
> 
> Do most recording meters have the ability to "catch" flicker issues? (Never had to use one before..)


I've only had experience with the one logger we own, a Fluke 1735, which I just checked Flukes site and see it's now discontinued.

In any case, if you can find or rent a logger, you should be after one with an event capture mode. Set the logger to trigger recording when an "event" such as a voltage dip or swell occurs and then in our case with the 1735 it'll record for another 4 minutes after the initial "trigger" that started the recording. The trigger is adjustable so you can set the voltage tolerance you like to start the recording.


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

Thanks for all the tips and advice on this problem, to update I think I have located the problem...using an old timer's trick. 

It appears that the right hand line side lug on my meter socket is arcing...

I will know for sure sometime tomorrow after I have the POCO come out to pull the meter. 

How did I find this?

A trick an old timer taught me years ago... using a portable AM radio set off-station, I found a classic crackling static pattern on the upper right side of the meter...the other three "sides" were dead silent. 

Hopefully the damage isn't too severe, (or better yet it is the meter itself that is bad) as I am not in a position to afford a replacement socket with all the paperwork needed. (Or if I am lucky, the POCO is responsible for the socket so I don't have to deal with it....

I'll post back here when I get the final answers.


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

Ok, here's the follow up:

The POCO came out and inspected the meter socket (all good there, thankfully) meter (no burned contact tabs) and put on the Super Beast to check for voltage drops and compromised neutral. Everything checked ok. 

They still won't replace the service drop with the extra splice in the affected leg (the only splice that wasn't changed out about 8 months ago on a previous issue). Maybe it's time for that drop to have an "accident" with a falling tree branch. :jester:

The flickering is gone though....so only two (maybe three) possibilities:

One, that extra splice... The load put on it by the Beast may have "welded" it together if it was the cause of the problem...maybe.

Two, the meter...if it had a loose connection internally, pulling and replacing it may have tightened it up enough to stop the problem.

Three (and more likely) my main breaker is marginal (Note the FOP readings in the opening post) and the exercising of it has cleared the problem. I will do another FOP on it later to see if the readings changed.

So for now anyways, all is well..and many thanks to all who responded here for the great suggestions on what to look for. :thumbup:


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

mxslick said:


> Ok, here's the follow up:
> 
> The POCO came out and inspected the meter socket (all good there, thankfully) meter (no burned contact tabs) and put on the Super Beast to check for voltage drops and compromised neutral. Everything checked ok.
> 
> ...


Welll...I did the FOP on the main again....with the same heavy loads as in the OP, Line 1 4mv, _*Line 2 68mv!

So I need a new main breaker....

*_Anyone have a SqD Q2M2150MT in good condition for sale? (Or QBM22150TN, the newer replacement.) 

I really don't want to get into a panel swap, but...


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## chknkatsu (Aug 3, 2008)

stupid question...what is FOP?


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

chknkatsu said:


> stupid question...what is FOP?


Freakin Old Panel:jester:



Really = Fall of Potential


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

chknkatsu said:


> stupid question...what is FOP?


Not a stupid question at all..as A Little Short said, it is "Fall Of Potential"

Member "Bad Electrician" has posted an excellent write-up on FOP testing, do a search for it on here. 

But I'll summarize as best I can:

In the case of breakers, fuses or switches, it is the voltage read across the closed contacts (or a good fuse). 

If the contact resistance was a perfect zero ohms, the reading should also be zero. 

In the real world that rarely if ever happens. All contacts/connections have SOME resistance, no matter how slight, so you will read a voltage (in millivolts), the lower the better. 

To do this test, you use a digital meter (AC mode, millivolts scale) and set one probe on the LINE terminal and the other probe on the LOAD side OF THE SAME PHASE/LEG. The reading in millivolts can be translated into the actual contact resistance by using Ohm's law. 

The reading of 68mv I got on my "L2" side of the main is way too high, I should be getting no more than about 4-8mv max. (The other red flag is the huge difference between L2 and L1....)..that, and the fact that both readings changed after exercising the main a few times. 

I'll be watching it for signs of heating until I can get a replacement. 







A Little Short said:


> Freakin Old Panel:jester:
> 
> 
> 
> Really = Fall of Potential


Both are correct in this case, the panel and main date from 1981. :laughing:


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## chknkatsu (Aug 3, 2008)

mxslick said:


> Not a stupid question at all..as A Little Short said, it is "Fall Of Potential"
> 
> Member "Bad Electrician" has posted an excellent write-up on FOP testing, do a search for it on here.
> 
> ...




thank you sir


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