# Neutral for 240 V Loads



## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Dude...:wallbash:


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

It has been required for many code cycles-- 2005 I believe required a neutral and a equipment grounding conductor.


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## butcher733 (Aug 4, 2012)

IBTL


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## smartblonde (Jan 26, 2014)

lectric_hand6855 said:


> Do you guys carry a neutral to 240 V Loads, like Ranges and clothes dryers for the controls, to keep the current off of the bare ground? Just interested in your opinions on this, thanks.


Yes we do. Since 1996


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

lectric_hand6855 said:


> Do you guys carry a neutral to 240 V Loads, like Ranges and clothes dryers for the controls, to keep the current off of the bare ground? Just interested in your opinions on this, thanks.



Like, yeah! It's, like, kinda required. Always has been.


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

but what about apps that dont have a nuetral?


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## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

Oh God.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

papaotis said:


> but what about apps that dont have a nuetral?


OP said "ranges and clothes dryers" And last time I checked they all got a grounded conductor.


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

he said 'like ranges and clothes dryers' not 'just' them. and i ran a new wire to a dryer just last week that doesnt have a neutral:whistling2:


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

papaotis said:


> he said 'like ranges and clothes dryers' not 'just' them. and i ran a new wire to a dryer just last week that doesnt have a neutral:whistling2:


But you know better, I don't think he does. Or it's Cletis.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

lectric_hand6855 said:


> Do you guys carry a neutral to 240 V Loads, like Ranges and clothes dryers for the controls, to keep the current off of the bare ground? Just interested in your opinions on this, thanks.


Ranges and clothes dryers typically are not 240V circuits, they are 120/240V circuits. 

So, to answer your original question, no, I don't carry a neutral to a 240V load, but I do carry a neutral to a 120/240V load, in addition to a bonding means (and keep the two isolated).


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

He must be laid off and doing some side work


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## lectric_hand6855 (Jan 24, 2009)

I appreciate the serious responses guys, everyone else, wtf! If you would look it was 3 in the morning after a long day when I made that post, I apologize every word and term wasn't exactly accurate......I've never had to look that up, I'm in industrial!


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

Oh my god if I hear "I do industrial" one more time.


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## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

ponyboy said:


> Oh my god if I hear "I do industrial" one more time.


I'm industrial, so I'm totally oblivious to basic electrical theory.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

ponyboy said:


> Oh my god if I hear "I do industrial" one more time.


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## Semi-Ret Electrician (Nov 10, 2011)

lectric_hand6855 said:


> I appreciate the serious responses guys, everyone else, wtf! If you would look it was 3 in the morning after a long day when I made that post, I apologize every word and term wasn't exactly accurate......I've never had to look that up, I'm in industrial!


ET can be a tough place, we get a lot of jacklegs, kooks and trolls. Many here have specialized and would be lost in a new electrical sector. Electrical terms are very specific and a small omission can mean everything.

You did say 240V which was correctly pointed out, does not require a neutral. 

But, clothes dryers and ranges are typically 120/240 so feeding a new circuit to one without a neutral might open up a gun battle with an inspector, which would probably not be worth the effort. And, the next resident would have a problem and get a hit by an HO.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

lectric_hand6855 said:


> I appreciate the serious responses guys, everyone else, wtf! If you would look it was 3 in the morning after a long day when I made that post, I apologize every word and term wasn't exactly accurate......I've never had to look that up, I'm in industrial!


Wait, I thought you industrial guys knew everything. I thought a monkey could wire a dwelling?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

backstay said:


> Wait, I thought you industrial guys knew everything. I thought a monkey could wire a dwelling?


No.... only _trained_ monkeys can. There's a big difference.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

ponyboy said:


> Oh my god if I hear "I do industrial" one more time.


 Cut him some slack. Everyone knows we don't have any of those lame-ass neutrals in industrial.


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## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

You resi guys are sensitive.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

EBFD6 said:


> You resi guys are sensitive.


I'm not a resi guy.


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

Big John said:


> Cut him some slack. Everyone knows we don't have any of those lame-ass neutrals in industrial.


My bad. I was a little hungover and ornery this morning


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## Nukie Poo (Sep 3, 2012)

480sparky said:


> No.... only trained monkeys can. There's a big difference.


I love this place


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

ponyboy said:


> My bad. I was a little hungover and ornery this morning


No, you had it right the first time. Resi or industrial, it's still a NEMA configuration. How many connections points?


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

99cents said:


> No, you had it right the first time. Resi or industrial, it's still a NEMA configuration. How many connections points?


Thanks but I know that. There's a lot of sarcasm floating around this thread. It's hard to catch it all


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

lectric_hand6855 said:


> I appreciate the serious responses guys, everyone else, wtf! If you would look it was 3 in the morning after a long day when I made that post, I apologize every word and term wasn't exactly accurate......I've never had to look that up, I'm in industrial!


Every word and term and the time of day was not the problem. The reactions here are justified, and your excuse _"I only do industrial"_ does not hold one drop of water. Sorry bud, it's just the way it is. If this was a DIY site you'd get all sorts of sympathy and instructions on how to do the job. 
This is a site for professionals and you are supposedly a professional "A" electrician asking if we run neutrals to 120V loads to keep the current off the bare grounds.  :001_huh:


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## lectric_hand6855 (Jan 24, 2009)

Okay first of all I want to go ahead and apologize for the lengthy post, but its time to clear some things up. I never thought this would get this out of hand, it was a quick post and I understand that I should have been more clear. Never once did I say that I didnt know how to install one of these 120/240V ckts. I have done several of these and have ALWAYS pulled a grounded (and grounding) conductor. I understand all about bonding and isolating, and when and where to do it. The reason for the post was because I recently had a residential electrician tell that doing that was BS and that he never did it because it was a waste of time and money, again I apologize for not making that more clear. I guess you resi guys are always trying to prove what you know by talking because you dont get a chance to do it otj. I appreciate the intelligent, respectful replys, and again I'm not making excuses, I should have been more clear, but I did expect more respect. The problem here is that too many people are trolling threads just waitng for a post to call someone stupid. I enjoy this site and have alot of respect for all the great electricians here, but lost some of that today. Anyway.....had to say my peace. Thanks.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

lectric_hand6855 said:


> Okay first of all I want to go ahead and apologize for the lengthy post, but its time to clear some things up. I never thought this would get this out of hand, it was a quick post and I understand that I should have been more clear. Never once did I say that I didnt know how to install one of these 120/240V ckts. I have done several of these and have ALWAYS pulled a grounded (and grounding) conductor. I understand all about bonding and isolating, and when and where to do it. The reason for the post was because I recently had a residential electrician tell that doing that was BS and that he never did it because it was a waste of time and money, again I apologize for not making that more clear. I guess you resi guys are always trying to prove what you know by talking because you dont get a chance to do it otj. I appreciate the intelligent, respectful replys, and again I'm not making excuses, I should have been more clear, but I did expect more respect. The problem here is that too many people are trolling threads just waitng for a post to call someone stupid. I enjoy this site and have alot of respect for all the great electricians here, but lost some of that today. Anyway.....had to say my peace. Thanks.


Speaking one's mind is always a good thing to do. It helps you maintain your dignity especially if you know you are correct. I've taken a lot of cyber bullying about power factor correctors. I probably should not have brought that up. I will have, though, an informational booth set up next to the main booth at the Electrician Talk annual picnic this year. Attend if you can.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

This thread got me wondering why the manufacturers could not just install a 240V motor in the dryer and in the range and dryer either install 240V controls or a control transformer with a 240V primary.

It sure seems that it would have been a fix that would not wind up making old existing wiring non compliant with the new codes, and I bet the cost in changing the way a dryer works would be less than the cost of installing 120/240V circuit over the cost of a 240V circuit.


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## Pharon (Jan 20, 2014)

Not to the dryer manufacturer. That's the problem.

Also, those existing 3-prong outlets are NEMA 10-30's. The configuration you're describing is a 6-30, so the outlet/cord would have to be changed anyway. The wiring could be re-used, at least, though.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

lectric_hand6855 said:


> Okay first of all I want to go ahead and apologize for the lengthy post, but its time to clear some things up. I never thought this would get this out of hand, it was a quick post and I understand that I should have been more clear. Never once did I say that I didnt know how to install one of these 120/240V ckts. I have done several of these and have ALWAYS pulled a grounded (and grounding) conductor. I understand all about bonding and isolating, and when and where to do it. The reason for the post was because I recently had a residential electrician tell that doing that was BS and that he never did it because it was a waste of time and money, again I apologize for not making that more clear. I guess you resi guys are always trying to prove what you know by talking because you dont get a chance to do it otj. I appreciate the intelligent, respectful replys, and again I'm not making excuses, I should have been more clear, *but I did expect more respect*. The problem here is that too many people are trolling threads just waitng for a post to call someone stupid. I enjoy this site and have alot of respect for all the great electricians here, *but lost some of that today*. Anyway.....had to say my peace. Thanks.


:laughing::lol::lol::notworthy: You want respect, you've come to the wrong place. You'll have to learn to give as good as you get........:whistling2:
It was a foolish question. It's right there in the code book. Give the resi electrician a code reference and you'll grow in his estimation.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

hardworkingstiff said:


> This thread got me wondering why the manufacturers could not just install a 240V motor in the dryer and in the range and dryer either install 240V controls or a control transformer with a 240V primary.
> 
> It sure seems that it would have been a fix that would not wind up making old existing wiring non compliant with the new codes, and I bet the cost in changing the way a dryer works would be less than the cost of installing 120/240V circuit over the cost of a 240V circuit.


It's probably a money thing! No cost to them if the HO has to install a new circuit.


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## lectric_hand6855 (Jan 24, 2009)

wendon said:


> :laughing::lol::lol::notworthy: You want respect, you've come to the wrong place. You'll have to learn to give as good as you get........:whistling2:
> It was a foolish question. It's right there in the code book. Give the resi electrician a code reference and you'll grow in his estimation.


That speaks volumes about your character.....You missed the whole point of my last post. You should try reading the entire post instead of just the part that pisses you off lol.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

lectric_hand6855 said:


> Okay first of all I want to go ahead and apologize for the lengthy post, but its time to clear some things up. I never thought this would get this out of hand, it was a quick post and I understand that I should have been more clear. Never once did I say that I didnt know how to install one of these 120/240V ckts. I have done several of these and have ALWAYS pulled a grounded (and grounding) conductor. I understand all about bonding and isolating, and when and where to do it. The reason for the post was because I recently had a residential electrician tell that doing that was BS and that he never did it because it was a waste of time and money, again I apologize for not making that more clear. I guess you resi guys are always trying to prove what you know by talking because you dont get a chance to do it otj. I appreciate the intelligent, respectful replys, and again I'm not making excuses, I should have been more clear, but I did expect more respect. The problem here is that too many people are trolling threads just waitng for a post to call someone stupid. I enjoy this site and have alot of respect for all the great electricians here, but lost some of that today. Anyway.....had to say my peace. Thanks.


Slamming the guys that wire dwellings is not going to get you respect. Making excuses gets you nothing. You asked if we ran a neutral to a dryer or range, that is a dumb question. Sorry you didn't get your share of respect on here, but you earn respect.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

lectric_hand6855 said:


> That speaks volumes about your character.....You missed the whole point of my last post. You should try reading the entire post instead of just the part that pisses you off lol.


Relax. It's not like you got brutalized. You should see what happens to the guys who say, "I don't own a code book so I thought I would ask..."

I'm assuming you're not one of those guys.


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## chewy (May 9, 2010)

You guys cant use your regular 120v for your washers and dryers?


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

Pharon said:


> Also, those existing 3-prong outlets are NEMA 10-30's.


That is an excellent point. It's not that we were not (in the past) not pulling a neutral to the receptacle (dryer), it was that we were not pulling a ground, and letting the neutral also act as the EGC.


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## 8V71 (Dec 23, 2011)

chewy said:


> You guys cant use your regular 120v for your washers and dryers?


Most electric heat dryers here are 120/240v. Washers are 120v.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

hardworkingstiff said:


> This thread got me wondering why the manufacturers could not just install a 240V motor in the dryer and in the range and dryer either install 240V controls or a control transformer with a 240V primary.
> 
> It sure seems that it would have been a fix that would not wind up making old existing wiring non compliant with the new codes, and I bet the cost in changing the way a dryer works would be less than the cost of installing 120/240V circuit over the cost of a 240V circuit.



In my opinion they should. If I was the ruler of the world all reso appliances would be straight 240. Resi dryers would be fine with a NEMA 6-30R and ever resi oven with a 6-50R. That would save a lot of copper and make a lot of non compliant installs even from back then compliant. 

Electric dryers have 120 volt motors because its cheaper to re use the same stock for gas dryers which are 120 volts. Having 2 different motor voltages would double inventory and costs for manufacturers. Same with the timer motors, drum lights, relays, electronic boards. Newer ovens would have an easier time since the only 120 volt loads are a 40 watt bulb and a 7 watt electronic control which both could easily be fed from a 50va transformer, yet we still need to run a #8 or #6 for .2 amps of load Older oven would have it harder because in bake mode the broil element would usually get 120 volts to even out cavity heating, but those are no longer made anyway. 





chewy said:


> You guys cant use your regular 120v for your washers and dryers?


 Our washer are 120 volts, however our dryer usually have 5000 to 6000 watt heaters. At 120 volts that would require a 60 amp circuit instead of a 30 amp like we do know. Voltage drop would be greater and the service would get very imbalanced.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

hardworkingstiff said:


> That is an excellent point. It's not that we were not (in the past) not pulling a neutral to the receptacle (dryer), it was that we were not pulling a ground, and letting the neutral also act as the EGC.


Correct, good point x2. A lot of people would get it wrong. Being honest I didn't know that up until the late 90s either. I am guilty of pulling 10-2 to dryers and 8-2 to ranges since that was how everyone around me did it including those who taught me. Entire housing projects in my area were done that way since the 60s. My uncle who used to be a sparky in Canada would just laugh when he saw how we did it but even he didn't know it had to be an insulated neutral. 


FWIW SEU cant originate from a sub panel either, but every apartment has it coming from the tenets subpanel over to the range.


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