# Subpanel Lugs as Feeder



## 3xdad (Jan 25, 2011)

Is this right? You have SEC's from meter landing on a 100A main service disconnect, and you want to send a 100A feeder from the main lugs?

If the 100A main is fastened in place and your feeder is sized for 100A, then i don't see why not.

Sound just like a feed thru set up.


----------



## JHFWIC (Mar 22, 2012)

3xdad said:


> Is this right? You have SEC's from meter landing on a 100A main service disconnect, and you want to send a 100A feeder from the main lugs?
> 
> If the 100A main is fastened in place and your feeder is sized for 100A, then i don't see why not.
> 
> Sound just like a feed thru set up.


What he said!


----------



## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

> "Removing the Meter Will not Turn off Power, Contact Utility".


Where did that signage on the main panel come from? Was that something from the manufacture? Is this a solar project? Is the sub panel really an AC combiner box/panel off of inverters?

I am having a hard time figuring out why removing the meter will not turn off the panel.


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

2nd that.....:blink:~CS~:blink:


----------



## CTshockhazard (Aug 28, 2009)

I have seen old meter cans that, when the meter is removed, the line and load jaws are automatically jumpered. 

Heed that warning.:thumbsup:


----------



## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

Does a panel need to be rated for feed-through, for it to be used that way?


----------



## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

CT metering of some sort?


----------



## onilozay (Jun 16, 2013)

*pictures*

Hi all, thanks for your help,

pictures attached for reference. They are actually 2 mains, each feeding a 100A sub-panel to each duplex unit. Panels are "sealed" by city.

Close up photo (blurry image) shows labels which say :

"Do not Break Seal No Fuses Inside"

and

"Removal of Meter does not De-energize Circuit. Do not Service this Device Before Contacting Utility for Disconnection of Power".

I was surprised because I though Meter can always disconnect power.


----------



## onilozay (Jun 16, 2013)

*Main 100A Breaker*

below is inside one of the panels, service to breaker not lugs


----------



## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

Wish we could see inside that meter enclosure. I bet the meter is installed parallel to a buss bar that runs down into the bottom half of the meter enclosure to a series of lugs designed to accomodate more then one panel, but in this case feeding only one?


----------



## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

flyboy said:


> Wish we could see inside that meter enclosure. I bet the meter is installed parallel to a buss bar that runs down into the bottom half of the meter enclosure to a series of lugs designed to accomodate more then one panel, but in this case feeding only one?


Well, like Nancy Pillowsee would say, "We're going to have to break the seal to see what's inside and pull the meter to see if it's actually true." Just put it back like you found it. Maybe they're referring to the fact that the load side is still live? It might be there, but I don't see a hold down clip on the main breaker.


----------



## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Schrodingers meter?

I would think that the 100amp main would need to have some kind of hold down screw or something.


----------



## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

jrannis said:


> Schrodingers meter?
> 
> I would think that the 100amp main would need to have some kind of hold down screw or something.


I think your right, it should. I believe they used the wrong panel on the initial installation. They used a sub panel instead of a main breaker panel.


----------



## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

onilozay said:


> So, I'm wondering can I just take power for feeder directly into main lugs. Alternatively I could put another 100A breaker in for feeder.


I would put in another 100A breaker and be done with it. No POCO required for disconnecting


----------



## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

dronai said:


> I would put in another 100A breaker and be done with it. No POCO required for disconnecting


...but there's no room in the panel.


----------



## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

flyboy said:


> ...but there's no room in the panel.


The new sub-panel
Pipe the feeder along with the circuits that are being removed for space

Check out the wires in that upper right group of breakers. Looks like double lugging


----------



## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

Is this actually two single poles turned into a double pole??? A single/double that's double-lugged!!! Must be more difficult to get the POCO out in your area. I'd call my local guy and they'd do a disconnect in no time flat. If it's a standard meter base, they'd give me a seal to put on after I replace the panel with a new MB 20 space, and plug the meter back in.


----------



## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

wendon said:


> Is this actually two single poles turned into a double pole??? A single/double that's double-lugged!!! Must be more difficult to get the POCO out in your area. I'd call my local guy and they'd do a disconnect in no time flat. If it's a standard meter base, they'd give me a seal to put on after I replace the panel with a new MB 20 space, and plug the meter back in.


 
If he's in Ca. (California) That installation is no longer legal. He would need to do a new 2 meter service change with main breakers. We are required to have the main breaker at the meter here.


----------



## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

dronai said:


> If he's in Ca. (California) That installation is no longer legal. He would need to do a new 2 meter service change with main breakers. We are required to have the main breaker at the meter here.


I see. I think in my area, the POCO would be glad to get that panel updated. We're allowed 8' from where the conductors enter the building envelope. Not sure on 2 meter services as I've never wired a duplex, just single family homes.


----------



## Jack Legg (Mar 12, 2014)

I pulled a meter to do a panel change out last summer

went back into the basement to start working and the basement lights were still on:blink:

The meter socket had some sort of spring loaded bypass that kept power connected with the meter out


----------



## onilozay (Jun 16, 2013)

Hi all, sorry for late reply,

Actually, I've since removed all breakers except 100A. Will be using Main panel sort of like a junction box, just to 'feed through' the feeder.

Yes your right, it is a sub-panel, neutral is not bonded to equipment.


----------



## SkidoggT (Jul 9, 2013)

Help me out Senior Colleagues, what part of best practice/Code did I miss in the past 25 years?
There's so much that is odd (at best, dead wrong at worst) in these photos, in spite of the author's effort at full disclosure, my gut response is: NO, get the heck out of there.
Seems to be implementing tag out/lock out to new level of absurdity/hazard; lack of hold down for the back-fed (Main?) breaker; double tapped breakers, shared neutrals and Lord knows to what/how those 3-wire cables are connected downstream; as for the supply, even though we can see Cu (and hopefully not Cu-plated) does it really look like it could be at least AWG-3 or larger; and bonding/grounding issues, And somebody upstream in this thread suggested this might be "quick fix" feed through? Help me out
All the Best,
SkidoggTheo


----------



## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

SkidoggT said:


> Help me out Senior Colleagues, what part of best practice/Code did I miss in the past 25 years?
> There's so much that is odd (at best, dead wrong at worst) in these photos, in spite of the author's effort at full disclosure, my gut response is: NO, get the heck out of there.
> Seems to be implementing tag out/lock out to new level of absurdity/hazard; lack of hold down for the back-fed (Main?) breaker; double tapped breakers, shared neutrals and Lord knows to what/how those 3-wire cables are connected downstream; as for the supply, even though we can see Cu (and hopefully not Cu-plated) does it really look like it could be at least AWG-3 or larger; and bonding/grounding issues, And somebody upstream in this thread suggested this might be "quick fix" feed through? Help me out
> All the Best,
> SkidoggTheo


Oh boy.......you're gonna love it here. :laughing:


----------



## 3xdad (Jan 25, 2011)

SkidoggT said:


> Help me out Senior Colleagues, what part of best practice/Code did I miss in the past 25 years?
> There's so much that is odd (at best, dead wrong at worst) in these photos, in spite of the author's effort at full disclosure, my gut response is: NO, get the heck out of there.
> Seems to be implementing tag out/lock out to new level of absurdity/hazard; lack of hold down for the back-fed (Main?) breaker; double tapped breakers, shared neutrals and Lord knows to what/how those 3-wire cables are connected downstream; as for the supply, even though we can see Cu (and hopefully not Cu-plated) does it really look like it could be at least AWG-3 or larger; and bonding/grounding issues, And somebody upstream in this thread suggested this might be "quick fix" feed through? Help me out
> All the Best,
> SkidoggTheo


Relax dogg. The issues in your post are or were being discussed. As for the "somebody" (who of which is quite good looking) in post #2, answered according to the OP, before the pictures arrived.

Besides, that service pales to the hideousness i've seen.

Oh BTW, welcome to ET.


----------



## Lukeetal (Oct 13, 2010)

100 amp sub panel off of a 100 amp sub panel? I know the load calculations allow for some fuzzy math but should the service be upgraded if the loads warrant a second 100 sub panel? I am pretty sure there is a no no in there somewhere. Also my concern would be that while the sub-sub-feeders are fused at 100 amps the entire service must be shut down to de-energize the sub-sub-panel. 

When I have been in similar situations where pulling the meter would not disconnect the service I have watched POC just disconnect the load side lugs to de-energize what I need to service.


----------



## Stryder89 (Dec 9, 2010)

*My 2 cents*

The wire I see coming from the meter box is not big enough to support another 100 amp sub panel. That has to be upgraded before putting any increased load on this supply. You will have to cut the seal and in my opinion, upgrade your panel. But hey, what do I know, it's your trip.


----------



## Midnight (Jun 11, 2014)

May be a type of CT meter, that would explain why the meter pan is so large. 
You could use those lugs just follow tap rules in article 240


----------



## brandoe898 (Nov 17, 2014)

*Use a separate breaker*

For one you shouldn't double land on a lug not designed for it. That's a nec no no I'm sure everyone knows, but I would want a breaker before a sub panel to have a disconnection point in case of needing to service the sub panel. Just my thoughts


----------



## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

Stryder89 said:


> The wire I see coming from the meter box is not big enough to support another 100 amp sub panel. That has to be upgraded before putting any increased load on this supply. You will have to cut the seal and in my opinion, upgrade your panel. But hey, what do I know, it's your trip.


I could put a 200A rated panel downstream of that and it wouldnt make a lick of difference. Its protected at 100A at the breaker, fella.


----------



## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

SkidoggT said:


> Help me out Senior Colleagues, what part of best practice/Code did I miss in the past 25 years?
> There's so much that is odd (at best, dead wrong at worst) in these photos, in spite of the author's effort at full disclosure, my gut response is: NO, get the heck out of there.
> Seems to be implementing tag out/lock out to new level of absurdity/hazard; lack of hold down for the back-fed (Main?) breaker; double tapped breakers, shared neutrals and Lord knows to what/how those 3-wire cables are connected downstream; as for the supply, even though we can see Cu (and hopefully not Cu-plated) does it really look like it could be at least AWG-3 or larger; and bonding/grounding issues, And somebody upstream in this thread suggested this might be "quick fix" feed through? Help me out
> All the Best,
> SkidoggTheo


Psshhh. LOTO aint for residential service, man. That wiring is nicer than what most of us frequently work with, and doesnt bother me in the least. Add subpanel, use that panel as j-box, and rock on.


----------



## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

Lukeetal said:


> 100 amp sub panel off of a 100 amp sub panel? I know the load calculations allow for some fuzzy math but should the service be upgraded if the loads warrant a second 100 sub panel? I am pretty sure there is a no no in there somewhere. Also my concern would be that while the sub-sub-feeders are fused at 100 amps the entire service must be shut down to de-energize the sub-sub-panel.
> 
> When I have been in similar situations where pulling the meter would not disconnect the service I have watched POC just disconnect the load side lugs to de-energize what I need to service.


Maybe the homeowner just wants more circuits added, are doing a kitchen reno, etc. The new sub panel may just be for convenience. 100a is still a lot of power.


----------



## brandoe898 (Nov 17, 2014)

*You could do this but would a good craftsman?*



Going_Commando said:


> I could put a 200A rated panel downstream of that and it wouldnt make a lick of difference. Its protected at 100A at the breaker, fella.


----------



## brandoe898 (Nov 17, 2014)

Only reason I say that is because you wouldn't want to leave an opportunity to fill up that 200 amp panel, capable of overloading the se wires and burning them up. Freak accidents happen..


----------



## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

dronai said:


> If he's in Ca. (California) That installation is no longer legal. He would need to do a new 2 meter service change with main breakers. We are required to have the main breaker at the meter here.


He would get passed up around here. He has a main disconnect at the panel located below the meter. 

Perhaps a test bypass meter?

Didn't see a lack of hold down on the main....


----------



## FaultCurrent (May 13, 2014)

It's just a meter socket with test blocks, EUSERC standard. There are millions of those installed here. You east coast guys don't use this stuff, it's only in the west. No overcurrent devices or grounding in meter enclosure.

http://www.cooperindustries.com/con...pment/single/MTR-14_WU_SingleSafetySocket.pdf


----------

