# New trade classifications



## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

What do you guy's think of the article on the front page of the electrical worker. I'm not liking the sound of this. I think it is an attempt to break down the wage structure from our own side. What the !!!!!!


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

This is the real world, it is better than sticking ones head in the sand. I say it is good thing.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

It's a good thing till you can't get a job as a journeyman electrician and you have to take less pay for the same work.


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

I have been on the book since February. What work?


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

I got you beat, it's been December for me. Not looking good. This CW construction wireman and CE Construction Electrician classification spells split rate. It's funny cause that's what I though I was for the last 20 years. Either way I think it will mean less work and less pay. I was told that I needed to complete the 5 year apprenticeship to do this type of work and now they are trying to hand this work out for less than apprentice wages. To me it's like calling out a service electrician and paying him one hourly rate for service installs and saying we will give you less to hook up the receptacles. I think the IBEW views are starting to get blurred, mine too. This split rate system just means you will rarely see the pay you once saw. IMO. I hope they seriously monitor the work being performed by these classifications. They may have some type of protective measures in the agreement, but most of us know that agreement doesen't hold water amymore. IMO. This is your pilot speaking, buckle up, cause it's going to be a ruff ride.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Maybe...just maybe..the union is making an attempt to be more competitive and maybe...just maybe...keep its workers employed more steadily. *gasp*


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## Boneshaker (Jul 31, 2009)

I am a member of the negotiating commitee for my local and during our last negotiations we accepted the classifications of CW and CE. I can assure you that at least in my local we put in rules to make certain that these new classifications would not affect the markets that we already had a strong hold on. It was to make an attempt to compete in the markets that we have been shut out of over the past decade or so. I know change is hard to accept in alot of cases, but it is either step up and try to be innovative or sit back and watch the industry pass us by.


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## cmec (Feb 11, 2008)

I STARTED as an rw trainee back in the 70s , All haveing multiple scales dose is make hate and discontent between the guys , ESPICALLY IN THE SAME SHOP.THEY ARE BREEDING NON UNION CONTRACTORS especally when somones son or relative gets to upgrade ahead of somone who really deserves it.or theres no work for the cw or ce (I KNOW I AM OPEN SHOP I DID IT)

When davis bacon wage decisons are made, and challanged by an developer or agency(not an open shop contractor, I am smart enough not to:laughing this will bring wages for the whole industry down.


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## s.kelly (Mar 20, 2009)

Personally, I think the idea has some merit. A lower composite rate should allow union contractors more opportunities to bid work. 

In our area, so far it seems the contractors are bidding the same work and using some "c"classifications to make more money. Unfortunately, many of the local contractors seem to be locked in to a very specific area of work. The tough economy might get some to come out of their shell a bit though.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

Peter D said:


> Maybe...just maybe..the union is making an attempt to be more competitive and maybe...just maybe...keep its workers employed more steadily. *gasp*



Of course they are doing it to be more competitive. I don't think making new classifications is the way to do it. As far as working steady things have been good in my area for some time, this economy is hurting not only union but non union as well. If you work new construction, well chances are your not working. I have talked to a lot of brothers over the years with the split rate system and it doesn't work. Remember when a union wage decreases so does the non union wage. I think a lot of our pay scale woes are tied directly to immigration and we know you can't compete with that. They will always work for less. These so called new classifications are aimed directly towards small works. I was trained to be an electrician whether it's a small job pulling mc or a big job running 6" rigid. It's an electricians job and you have to know many things, ways, and techniques . What are we going to have guys come in and do the under ground and piping, then another crew comes in and pulls the wire then another crew to come in and device out. If the international wants to do something, they should start working on our reputation that has been tarnished over the years. Promote our educational training. Mandate training facilities. Over the years we have proven our worth with our skill level don't degrade it with lower wages.


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## sparks134 (Jan 30, 2009)

that article made me sick!!!


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## Mikeomo (May 7, 2009)

Is there a link (or scan) of this article somewhere?


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## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

Mikeomo said:


> Is there a link (or scan) of this article somewhere?


Uh! IBEW web site maybe


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Boneshaker said:


> I am a member of the negotiating commitee for my local and during our last negotiations we accepted the classifications of CW and CE. I can assure you that at least in my local we put in rules to make certain that these new classifications would not affect the markets that we already had a strong hold on. It was to make an attempt to compete in the markets that we have been shut out of over the past decade or so. I know change is hard to accept in alot of cases, but it is either step up and try to be innovative or sit back and watch the industry pass us by.


If the different scales are based on a legitimate difference in workers and pushes workers to better themselves this should be a win win. Those that oppose change like this are going to join the whip makers of the late 19th century.

Why should a man that can only do deck work or be a follower get the same as a man with some better skills, Why should a green J-man fresh from apprenticeship make the exact same as a 20 year man?There is some logic to all this.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

sparks134 said:


> that article made me sick!!!


why?


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Loose Neutral said:


> What are we going to have guys come in and do the under ground and piping, then another crew comes in and pulls the wire then another crew to come in and device out.


Uhh..yeah. Where have you been? :blink:


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## cmec (Feb 11, 2008)

brian john said:


> Why should a man that can only do deck work or be a follower get the same as a man with some better skills, Why should a green J-man fresh from apprenticeship make the exact same as a 20 year man?There is some logic to all this.


The above statement is one of the main reasons I tore my ticket up
BECAUSE THIS THE MINDSET
ISM --- unionism , socialism , Its not about individual talent or skills, ITS about collective bargaining and negoateing as a group, you work for local 123 not john doe electric co( even though john doe pays your wc and payroll taxes),so everyone in the group is equal and gets the same pay rate, and the contractor pays hospitalization as part of your h &w package you never see the money ,weather your wife already has it where she works so you can pay for the guy who has 8 kids.

I think this can backfire ,when there is no work for ce or cw s ,or some of the classic politics happens on upgrading,or somone cant get their kid in or people challange wage decisons, and the members do somepthing out of their pay classifications file grievences with the dept of labor against the union and contractor.

The ibew wold be further ahead to run the locals as a temp agency contractor pays a flat fee to the local including wc and payroll taxes , hall furnishes a jiw,rw,ce or cw or tellecom guy and handles all their h&w and payroll bs


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## Boneshaker (Jul 31, 2009)

As I said in an earlier post these new classifications are an attempt to capture the markets that we are currently not competitive in. The new classifications are for people that are not currently in the union sector, they have no affect on the people that are already members of the union. In my area we are not competitive on schools, gas stations, small retail facilities and things of these types. The opportunity is available for the people that come in this way to complete the apprenticeship and become an "A" member but it is not a requirement. If a particular person comes into the union under one ot these classifications and all he has ever done is light commercial and that is all he ever wants to do than these classifications are for him. They are not for you and I.


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

This will be abused and legit JW will be squeezed out. 

One of the largest Union shops in Los Angeles County (no CE or CW program) found a loophole and uses "summer helpers" on a lot of their large projects. The helpers have taken a lot of man hours from the local guys. No one will complain. Guys are too affraid to say anything to the hall and get thrown to the bottom of a 700 man book 1. Union won't due anything about it, cause they don't want to do anything to piss this contractor off and have them go non-signatory.

I have met guys at supply houses that are CE's and CW's and they have told me they will not test out to JW because they will get laid off. They do everthing a JW does, yet get paid about $10 less per hour. Are they gonna complain? They are working, while the guys who spent 4-5 years in the classroom are collecting cans at Chargers games.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

We already have a pay structure lower than a j-man for the less skilled. It's called apprentice. There's 5 different levels of pay there to compete. When it's a really tight bid, sometimes special ratios can be applied to be more competitive. That article specifically stated the pay would be less than an apprentice. Well, we call them helpers. This classification change is only an attempt to bring the wages down period. I think if you see what their small works competition is, you will clearly see why you can't compete. Like I said earlier you can't compete with that. Secondly, they are not big on unions down there anyways. That local doesn't even have any contractors or an active apprenticeship program. What do they have to lose? Who's fighting for the worker there? How can you compete, when you have no contractors to go out and compete. That's like going to a car race with no car. Within 5-10 years you will be hearing sorry no JW jobs today, but we have lots of CE and CW work. The only problem is you will be going to the same places you worked before, for $15 less an hour. You want to compete, let our skills compete. Activily promote our business, keep us highly trained, keep us highly motivated with good pay, good working conditions and good benefits.


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## cmec (Feb 11, 2008)

I will say it again this is remminicant of the rw program in the 70s,difference beeing rws got an a card and and were paid a differnt rate,IF THEY worked on commercial work they got higher rate ,anyone that understands how things work and was a open shop journeyman would not come in with a b card.

THE MORE I THINK ABOUT IT THIS IS LIKE ED HILL SIGHNING AN NAFTA AGREEMENT .


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

Peter D said:


> Uhh..yeah. Where have you been? :blink:




I've been on the job that's where I have been. I have seen multiple electrical contractor's on the big jobs and have also seen one contractor do it all. Talking about skill level here. An electrician's job is from the underground to devicing out. Not different skill levels per job. The bigger problem IMO is walking on the job and being the only worker paying taxes, having benefits and being a US citizen. That's the real problem and like I said you can't compete with that. Our Govt have let these company's exploit or working conditions and way of life for the sake of profit. It's so bad now that I have been on military installations working side by side with illigals. Like I said you want to compete. Compete with skills not de-valueing your self worth. This will only lower the wages in the indusrty as a whole, whether union or non-union.


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## Boneshaker (Jul 31, 2009)

This is deffinitely a big picture discussion, you can't approach this issue in a vacuum. Some skilled people have no interest in going through an apprenticeship program for what ever reason. Maybe they don't want to go to school for 5 years or maybe they don't feel they have the abilities to make themselves into a full well rounded trades person and want to stick with what they know which may be residential or light commercial. The wage structure is similar to a low rate project for a full fledeged journeyman wireman. The difference is in the benifits, such as reduced pension and participant assisted health care. At this point we are getting zero percent of the pie in certain sectors, with the new classifications we may be able to up the piece to 10-15%. This does not sound like much, but even if we only put a few men on projects like these than we have a larger piece of the pie than we currently have. The package we negotiated requires a journeyman wireman for every 4 cw/ce hired on a project, and then an inside apprentice. Perfect? no, but it is an effort to capture work that others are doing.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Loose Neutral said:


> I've been on the job that's where I have been. I have seen multiple electrical contractor's on the big jobs and have also seen one contractor do it all. Talking about skill level here. An electrician's job is from the underground to devicing out. Not different skill levels per job. The bigger problem IMO is walking on the job and being the only worker paying taxes, having benefits and being a US citizen. That's the real problem and like I said you can't compete with that. Our Govt have let these company's exploit or working conditions and way of life for the sake of profit. It's so bad now that I have been on military installations working side by side with illigals. Like I said you want to compete. Compete with skills not de-valueing your self worth. This will only lower the wages in the indusrty as a whole, whether union or non-union.


WHERE have you been?

There are many specialties in the trade and CONSTRUCTION is the basic level. If you think a guy laying a duct bank is comparable to a control tech you missed the boat a long time ago. ANYBODY and I mean ANYBODY can install a duct bank, try programing a PLC.

The trade is becoming more specialized and will continue those that take the time and have the inclination to better themselves should be rewarded.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

Boneshaker said:


> This is deffinitely a big picture discussion, you can't approach this issue in a vacuum. Some skilled people have no interest in going through an apprenticeship program for what ever reason. Maybe they don't want to go to school for 5 years or maybe they don't feel they have the abilities to make themselves into a full well rounded trades person and want to stick with what they know which may be residential or light commercial. The wage structure is similar to a low rate project for a full fledeged journeyman wireman. The difference is in the benifits, such as reduced pension and participant assisted health care. At this point we are getting zero percent of the pie in certain sectors, with the new classifications we may be able to up the piece to 10-15%. This does not sound like much, but even if we only put a few men on projects like these than we have a larger piece of the pie than we currently have. The package we negotiated requires a journeyman wireman for every 4 cw/ce hired on a project, and then an inside apprentice. Perfect? no, but it is an effort to capture work that others are doing.




Well I did want to do the five years that's why I get paid what I do. Never done resi work, but do anything from light commercial to heavy industrial. that's why I had to do the five years at least that's what the IBEW told me then. So because they have no interest in doing the five years I should let them come in and do my job for less. Your right we are losing market share in some of those areas also, but other than lowering wages, what has the IBEW suggested to get it back. The real problem lies in the immigration laws. The only other thing the IBEW did to gain market share, was to irresponsibly organize to many electrical workers without getting the contractors to give the additional jobs. That's because they keep trying the same tactics of trying to force non-union contractors to become union contractors. That tactic may have worked earlier in the game, but not now. You want to gain market share and gain contractor's, you do that by making them want to be union and you do that by making us the best skilled and most productive members of the electrical industry. Not by reducing wages and working conditions.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

brian john said:


> WHERE have you been?
> 
> There are many specialties in the trade and CONSTRUCTION is the basic level. If you think a guy laying a duct bank is comparable to a control tech you missed the boat a long time ago. ANYBODY and I mean ANYBODY can install a duct bank, try programing a PLC.
> 
> The trade is becoming more specialized and will continue those that take the time and have the inclination to better themselves should be rewarded.



I'm saying I have been trained to install the duct bank, pull the wire, set the PLC and hook it up. Yes there are different skill levels and the field is very broad. That's why I value my self worth and feel as electricians we are undervalued. I believe you are a contractor, so of course our opinions on this matter will be different. However I will tell you that our previous discussion of w-mart have changed my view's. thanks.


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## Boneshaker (Jul 31, 2009)

Loose Neutral, I undrestand where you are coming from. I to went through the 5 year program, I to am very confident in my abilities and comfortable with my background. I however have never had the opportunity to work on or put anyone to work at a new school or new retail store etc..... This new classification is a step in this direction. Our cw/ce class does not cover power plant, paper mills, ship yards, manufacturing facilities, hospitals, parking garages or any commercial project greater than $750,000. Perhaps we have put the cart before the horse in years past by taking in more members than we can employ on a steady basis. But it is not a matter of what we did in the past but what are we going to do in the future to ensure the success of the union and union contractors.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Loose Neutral said:


> An electrician's job is from the underground to devicing out.


That sounds like a nice idea, but the reality (at least in my experience) is that there is only a small percentage of electricians who truly have the wide skill set that you describe. 

Furthermore, I don't understand why this is a problem anyway. If a certain percentage of electricians are really good at heavy outdoor and underground work, and some are good at roughing and trimming, and some are good at low voltage and controls, and some are good at troubleshooting and service...do you seem my point? Everyone has a speciality or at least a few things they are particularly good at. 

To assume that _every_ electrician who goes through an apprenticeship or training program is going to possess the skills to do everything from underground to troubleshooting a motor starter...well, that is pure fantasy in my opinion.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

Peter D said:


> That sounds like a nice idea, but the reality (at least in my experience) is that there is only a small percentage of electricians who truly have the wide skill set that you describe.
> 
> Furthermore, I don't understand why this is a problem anyway. If a certain percentage of electricians are really good at heavy outdoor and underground work, and some are good at roughing and trimming, and some are good at low voltage and controls, and some are good at troubleshooting and service...do you seem my point? Everyone has a speciality or at least a few things they are particularly good at.
> 
> To assume that _every_ electrician who goes through an apprenticeship or training program is going to possess the skills to do everything from underground to troubleshooting a motor starter...well, that is pure fantasy in my opinion.




Peter I don't know if your union or non-union. But the electricians in my area are pretty well rounded and it's usually done just like that. The contractor on the job does it all. I personally work of the books and feel this is a good way to be well rounded. When you take a call you could be doing anything from hooking up a lightning bug to a lightning bolt. You may take a call and it's a control job with 16 and 18 guage wire or you could be wrestling 750's. The 5 year apprenticeship covers the field pretty good and upon completion you should be a competent electrician. It's up to the j-man to keep the skills up as he likes after that. Like I said, for as much as we as electricians union or non-union have to know I want to make more not less. Let's move forward not backward.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Loose Neutral said:


> Peter I don't know if your union or non-union. But the electricians in my area are pretty well rounded and it's usually done just like that. The contractor on the job does it all. I personally work of the books and feel this is a good way to be well rounded. When you take a call you could be doing anything from hooking up a lightning bug to a lightning bolt. You may take a call and it's a control job with 16 and 18 guage wire or you could be wrestling 750's. The 5 year apprenticeship covers the field pretty good and upon completion you should be a competent electrician. It's up to the j-man to keep the skills up as he likes after that. Like I said, for as much as we as electricians union or non-union have to know I want to make more not less. Let's move forward not backward.


 
Around here, a Underground company does the duct banks with laborers, A network company does the network cabling with semi skilled cable pullers. The rest at this point is still be electricians.

What if scale is 42.00 an hour and any extra trade skills you have will get you money above scale?

I charge my customers more for a specialists that I do for an electrician.

I think (MY OPINION) the trades are changing and like it our not the IBEW has to change with it. Ed seems to have this philosophy and is trying to drag the IBEW into the 21th Century.

Now change always hurts some and benefits others, those most affected to the negitive will scream and rightly so. But if we do not change it is possible there will be less IBEW work in the future.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Loose Neutral said:


> The only other thing the IBEW did to gain market share, was to irresponsibly organize to many electrical workers without getting the contractors to give the additional jobs.


Anybody who is a local here can sign Book 1. I went down to check out the Books, and I recognized alot of the names on the Book that signed in 6 months ago from my non-union days. A good majority of the guys with a hot number on the books are non-union guys who signed when the housing market crapped out. Is this fair? These outsiders have a chance to go to work long before the good union guys who made it another 6 months working before the rest of the economy felt the pain.

Is it fair? Hell no. Is there anything better out there? Again, No. This local has a really high market share, but the Books are not moving. A couple locals within three to four hours drive have books moving, I signed their Book 2's, but there again, you have to deal with the slug-butt locals constantly shuffling back to Book 1. Then you also have the guys ahead of you who have a consistently good number because they are coming back off short calls and kept their spot.

When the economy is good, the system is really great. When the economy is crap, it really sucks.

The moral of the story is, don't get stuck in that gray area between worm shop rocket and full on union man, because you will get bent over by the way things work.

Maybe it is time to move. I hear NM and DC have jobs. Peter D, by 'NM,' I do not mean romex, don't get excited, we all remember those pics of the shelves in your garage, submit another link to those pics, it looks like a garage sale in heaven.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

miller_elex said:


> Anybody who is a local here can sign Book 1. I went down to check out the Books, and I recognized alot of the names on the Book that signed in 6 months ago from my non-union days. A good majority of the guys with a hot number on the books are non-union guys who signed when the housing market crapped out. Is this fair? These outsiders have a chance to go to work long before the* good union guys*


.

You had me till you threw that in.



> I signed their Book 2's, but there again, you have to deal with the slug-butt locals constantly shuffling back to Book 1.


Wait your guys are good but their's as SLUG Butt's?






> Maybe it is time to move. I hear NM and DC have jobs. Peter D, by 'NM,' I do not mean romex, don't get excited, we all remember those pics of the shelves in your garage, submit another link to those pics, it looks like a garage sale in heaven.


 DC is doing better than other places but still SLOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW


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## Mikeomo (May 7, 2009)

*Nothing new here...*

This splitting out of levels is happening across all fields of work everywhere. This isn't new, and it isn't bad. This is about employers who don't want to pay a worker for skills they don't have which is fair. The world is changing and fast. Gone are the days where you can get your degree, certificate, JW card, or whatever and work with that the rest of your life. You have to continually go get additional education and skills. Experience alone isn't enough. The people who are going to be competing with the migrant workers and getting decreased wages are the ones who didn't continue to invest in themeselves and their education. If you have skills that are valuable, unique, and current employers will be happy to pay you a good wage because they know if they don't that a competitor will. I'm about as green as an apprentice can get and I'm not competing with unskilled laborers for work because I've spoke w/ the owner, he knows about my apprenticeship and supports that, and I've told him that once I've completed the apprenticeship program that I will continue to take classes, learn more, pick a speciality, refine my game - he sees me as a long term investment. There's almost 7 Billion people in the world, and almost all can do labor or get basic skills - and for cheap. Nobody wants to pay them a premium, employers want - and will pay - people who are hard working, can think, and have skills. :thumbsup:
--Sorry post is so long...


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

miller_elex said:


> Maybe it is time to move. I hear NM and DC have jobs. Peter D, by 'NM,' I do not mean romex, don't get excited, we all remember those pics of the shelves in your garage, submit another link to those pics, it looks like a garage sale in heaven.


Ok...if you say so. :blink::laughing:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Mikeomo said:


> This splitting out of levels is happening across all fields of work everywhere. This isn't new, and it isn't bad. This is about employers who don't want to pay a worker for skills they don't have which is fair. The world is changing and fast. Gone are the days where you can get your degree, certificate, JW card, or whatever and work with that the rest of your life. You have to continually go get additional education and skills. Experience alone isn't enough. The people who are going to be competing with the migrant workers and getting decreased wages are the ones who didn't continue to invest in themeselves and their education. If you have skills that are valuable, unique, and current employers will be happy to pay you a good wage because they know if they don't that a competitor will. I'm about as green as an apprentice can get and I'm not competing with unskilled laborers for work because I've spoke w/ the owner, he knows about my apprenticeship and supports that, and I've told him that once I've completed the apprenticeship program that I will continue to take classes, learn more, pick a speciality, refine my game - he sees me as a long term investment. There's almost 7 Billion people in the world, and almost all can do labor or get basic skills - and for cheap. Nobody wants to pay them a premium, employers want - and will pay - people who are hard working, can think, and have skills. :thumbsup:
> --Sorry post is so long...



And that is the way it is. Smell the roses and advance or go the way of the whip makers.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

My local offers classes on a regular basis and lots of guys take advantage. It's not about sitting back and expecting pay for nothing it's about retaining the money and working conditions we have earned through the years. Were talking about re- classifying something we have done for years and that's being an electrician.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

mikeomo quote. I'm about as green as an apprentice can get and I'm not competing with unskilled laborers for work because I've spoke w/ the owner, 




Good luck with that.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Loose Neutral said:


> mikeomo quote. I'm about as green as an apprentice can get and I'm not competing with unskilled laborers for work because I've spoke w/ the owner,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It works in my company, we have brought back several apprentices that showed promise and a wiliness to get a head one is now a super and makes way OVER SCALE.

An apprentice like this young man is a win win for a company. Not all companies are sweat shops, no matter what your brothers tell you.


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## Mikeomo (May 7, 2009)

Loose Neutral said:


> mikeomo quote. I'm about as green as an apprentice can get and I'm not competing with unskilled laborers for work because I've spoke w/ the owner,
> 
> Good luck with that.


I have had "good luck" with that. If you work for a good employer, union or non, communication with them will benefit the both of you.

Next time you "quote" somebody though, maybe try quoting the ENTIRE sentence so that a complete thought is present.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

brian john said:


> It works in my company, we have brought back several apprentices that showed promise and a wiliness to get a head one is now a super and makes way OVER SCALE.
> 
> An apprentice like this young man is a win win for a company. Not all companies are sweat shops, no matter what your brothers tell you.



Really eluding to the fact of not being so naive. I can make up my own mind on how a company operates, I don't neccesarily rely on what my brothers tell me. 95% of the company's I have worked for have been good company's that treat you fair. I already told you that our opinions will be different because you are a contractor. Our goals are different. I will say I'm learning a lot about LU 26 from you. Like i didn't know they have self solicitation, I thought they worked off a referral system and there is no way in h*ll we let laborer's do our work. I know your opinions from reading another thread about guy's that work off the books ( which is total bull crap) and to hear you talk you try to justify this change as it's the workers fault for not staying on his toes. I was tops in my class and have worked hard my entire life and always strived to be the best at all times and take full advantage of the training the IBEW provides, this is not about being lazy or untrained it's about the breakdown of the wage structure that we have worked so hard for. Like I said, we have different objectives here and will not agree. So we'll agree that we disagree.


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## Mikeomo (May 7, 2009)

Loose Neutral said:


> Really eluding to the fact of not being so naive. I can make up my own mind on how a company operates, I don't neccesarily rely on what my brothers tell me. 95% of the company's I have worked for have been good company's that treat you fair. I already told you that our opinions will be different because you are a contractor. Our goals are different. I will say I'm learning a lot about LU 26 from you. Like i didn't know they have self solicitation, I thought they worked off a referral system and there is no way in h*ll we let laborer's do our work. I know your opinions from reading another thread about guy's that work off the books ( which is total bull crap) and to hear you talk you try to justify this change as it's the workers fault for not staying on his toes. I was tops in my class and have worked hard my entire life and always strived to be the best at all times and take full advantage of the training the IBEW provides, this is not about being lazy or untrained it's about the breakdown of the wage structure that we have worked so hard for. Like I said, we have different objectives here and will not agree. So we'll agree that we disagree.


This isn't a union vs. non issue, this isn't employee vs. owner, this is Econ 101. No business owner in their right mind is going to pay a highly skilled, specialized worker to do unskilled work. Bottom line is that if an unskilled / semi-skilled laborer can do your work, it's time to upgrade your skillset - not be mad at the laborer or the system.

I took a very significant paycut to become an electrical apprentice because the field I was in will be extinct in the next few years with the advent of technology. What used to require specialized skills will soon be able to be done by somebody with basic typing skills and some time on the job. I can't be mad that technology or people who made my skills obsolete, I can simply learn new and more valuable skills, and in a few years, I'll be making much more than I would've in my old field (an added benefit is that electrical work is far more interesting and gratifying :thumbup.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Loose Neutral said:


> Really eluding to the fact of not being so naive. I can make up my own mind on how a company operates, I don't neccesarily rely on what my brothers tell me. 95% of the company's I have worked for have been good company's that treat you fair. I already told you that our opinions will be different because you are a contractor. Our goals are different. I I was tops in my class and have worked hard my entire life and always strived to be the best at all times and take full advantage of the training the IBEW provides, this is not about being lazy or untrained it's about the breakdown of the wage structure that we have worked so hard for. Like I said, we have different objectives here and will not agree. So we'll agree that we disagree.




Fact is times are changing and YOU will not have control over who is doing what. You may for a while, but for workers at this time the work environment is changing at least for the present .

My point is, keep current with the trade and changes, continue with education and you shuold be employable. For you to think installing something as simple as duct banks takes a skilled work force, shows an oner evualtion of what is involved.


As for relying on brothers you may not BUT many do and this is a group thing. Individuality means NOTHING.




> Like i didn't know they have self solicitation, I thought they worked off a referral system and there is no way in h*ll we let laborer's do our work. I know your opinions from reading another thread about guy's that work off the books ( which is total bull crap) and to hear you talk you try to justify this change as it's the workers fault for not staying on his toes.


No you are right it not a workers fault he is a slacker and that I am not willing to put him on my payroll. Yeah give me the bottom of the barrel and in this time of recession where I have hired 4 men I WANTED, I'll suffer with a regular bench warmer Mr tattoo, dresses like a bum, and looks the same. Yeah that will fit in nicely in the data centers and hospitals we service.

Yep that is the way to promote a TOP QUALITY WORK FORCE.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

Sorry to hear that you have had bad luck hiring out of the hall, but fact is you take 100 guys on the books or steady, union, non-union, blue collar, white collar or whatever, 20 are overachievers, 60 are your average worker and 20 are under achievers. I have seen many bum's that work steady for a company. Sure they put on a good front for the boss, but watch out when the boss leaves. Like I said before IMO the guy's coming off the books are more well rounded than a guy that stays steady for the same contractor.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

Mikeomo said:


> This isn't a union vs. non issue, this isn't employee vs. owner, this is Econ 101. No business owner in their right mind is going to pay a highly skilled, specialized worker to do unskilled work. Bottom line is that if an unskilled / semi-skilled laborer can do your work, it's time to upgrade your skillset - not be mad at the laborer or the system.
> 
> I took a very significant paycut to become an electrical apprentice because the field I was in will be extinct in the next few years with the advent of technology. What used to require specialized skills will soon be able to be done by somebody with basic typing skills and some time on the job. I can't be mad that technology or people who made my skills obsolete, I can simply learn new and more valuable skills, and in a few years, I'll be making much more than I would've in my old field (an added benefit is that electrical work is far more interesting and gratifying :thumbup.




IW's have been doing this work for over a hundred years from the ground up. Skills are up, just standing up for my work. Like you said you are way to green in the business. I think in due time you will understand. Anybody can hook up a receptacle are you suggesting that we get laborers to do that too. It's all about the bigger picture not just the task at hand. But anyways welcome to field. It is very broad and you should have a good career. good luck


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Loose Neutral said:


> Sorry to hear that you have had bad luck hiring out of the hall, but fact is you take 100 guys on the books or steady, union, non-union, blue collar, white collar or whatever, 20 are overachievers, 60 are your average worker and 20 are under achievers. I have seen many bum's that work steady for a company. Sure they put on a good front for the boss, but watch out when the boss leaves. Like I said before IMO the guy's coming off the books are more well rounded than a guy that stays steady for the same contractor.


I agree with this It is just that I want the option of choosing my men. BUT I will place any of my steady men one of 23 years and is one of the top control, ATS, electrical testers, PLC techs, generators tech and overall trouble shooters in the local against 100 men off the bench.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Loose Neutral said:


> IW's have been doing this work for over a hundred years from the ground up. Skills are up, just standing up for my work. Like you said you are way to green in the business. I think in due time you will understand. Anybody can hook up a receptacle are you suggesting that we get laborers to do that too. It's all about the bigger picture not just the task at hand. But anyways welcome to field. It is very broad and you should have a good career. good luck


In the tract housing market many of the "electricians" are one notch above laborers.

Unions let this market go in this area as BENEATH THEM and licensing agencies ignore their own rules.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

brian john said:


> I agree with this It is just that I want the option of choosing my men. BUT I will place any of my steady men one of 23 years and is one of the top control, ATS, electrical testers, PLC techs, generators tech and overall trouble shooters in the local against 100 men off the bench.



One on one or one against the hundred. Good i'm glad you got a highly trained electrician that's how it should be and where did you get him?


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

brian john said:


> In the tract housing market many of the "electricians" are one notch above laborers.
> 
> Unions let this market go in this area as BENEATH THEM and licensing agencies ignore their own rules.



Resi is a whole different classification we are talking commercial industrial.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Loose Neutral said:


> Resi is a whole different classification we are talking commercial industrial.


It is electrical and no different than me saying duct work or MC cable work is a whole different animal. If it concerns electrical work and it keeps member working, what is the issue?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Loose Neutral said:


> One on one or one against the hundred. Good i'm glad you got a highly trained electrician that's how it should be and where did you get him?


I have interviewed and hired most of my guys from word of mouth, apprentices and j-men I worked with at other firms, past apprentices that worked here and men that my employees referred. 

I agree that the majority of men from the hall are excellent, just something about having some control that eases my mind.

Unfortunately at present there are way to many excellent men sitting on the bench.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

brian john said:


> It is electrical and no different than me saying duct work or MC cable work is a whole different animal. If it concerns electrical work and it keeps member working, what is the issue?



It has nothing to do with what we are talking about. We already know that the ibew has a resi classification at a lower rate. Were talking about reclassification of small works. Which the IW classification already does. The issue is that sooner or later it's going to effect the pay structure of the whole sector in some form and IMO it wont be in the upward direction with this plan.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

brian john said:


> I have interviewed and hired most of my guys from word of mouth, apprentices and j-men I worked with at other firms, past apprentices that worked here and men that my employees referred.
> 
> I agree that the majority of men from the hall are excellent, just something about having some control that eases my mind.
> 
> Unfortunately at present there are way to many excellent men sitting on the bench.



My point being, that every man with a union ticket came out of the hall. I think a lot of guys forget that fact.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Loose Neutral said:


> My point being, that every man with a union ticket came out of the hall. I think a lot of guys forget that fact.


Better than 75% of my men came from open shops and I brought them into the IBEW.

My point about residential has nothing to do with the classification, it has to do with the fact that in many area unions let this work go open shop. 

There is no reason if this work had not been ignored for so many years that it could not be union.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Loose Neutral said:


> Peter I don't know if your union or non-union.


Take a look at my profile and the answer should become very obvious. :laughing:




> You may take a call and it's a control job with 16 and 18 guage wire or you could be wrestling 750's. The 5 year apprenticeship covers the field pretty good and upon completion you should be a competent electrician. It's up to the j-man to keep the skills up as he likes after that. Like I said, for as much as we as electricians union or non-union have to know I want to make more not less.


I believe you have a very idealistic, and unrealistic, view of workers in this occupation. I stand by my original statement that all but the smallest percentage of electricians have the wide range of skills that you speak of. Now, don't get me wrong, I would love it if apprenticeships turned out the kind of electricians that you speak of. I simply do not see the evidence of that happening. 
And thankfully I have worked with guys who have the wide range of skills that you speak of, and have learned much from them, including a member of this board named Bob Badger. But overall, what you speak of is the exception and not the rule. 

The bottom line is that this trade really has no barriers to entry other than mechanical ability. No real higher education is required and your rightly point out that ones success is determined by how much effort they put into bettering themselves. Once again, in my experience, this is a very small overall percentage of workers.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Peter in my experience better that 80% of apprentices that finish an approved apprenticeship program cannot calculate the primary and secondary amperage's of a 75 KVA 408 VAC delta 208y/120 VAC transformer after 2 years.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

Peter D said:


> Take a look at my profile and the answer should become very obvious. :laughing:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well I suspected, now I know. That is probably why you fail to see so many good well rounded electricians. I have never been on a job that was not completed. I find you don't have to know it all, but when everyone on the job puts their heads together it gets done. When you look at the curriculum the ibew presents you should be able to do the job from the ground up. Yes from the ground up, all the info is there, although just like life you only get out of it what you put in. I have been on many jobs big and small that utilized only one contractor. It's funny how things work around the country. I have heard in vegas and cali they are in this specialized thing. Well I guess the craftmenship of being a union electrician is going by the way side.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

brian john said:


> Better than 75% of my men came from open shops and I brought them into the IBEW.
> 
> My point about residential has nothing to do with the classification, it has to do with the fact that in many area unions let this work go open shop.
> 
> There is no reason if this work had not been ignored for so many years that it could not be union.


Are you a union contractor or not? Brian I really don't hear any good stuff from you about Unions. You have me confused are you running a double breasted shop? Did You complete a Union Apprenticeship? My bet is sometimes, yes, no. Am I right? Your thoughts about resi are true, like most contractors they want the big works. Over the years they have let a lot of things slip by.


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## Boneshaker (Jul 31, 2009)

Loose Neutral, I know your last post was directed at Brian.I however would like to point out that the new classifications are an attempt to capture the work that the unions and union contractors have let slip by in past years. It is an attempt to correct past mistakes.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

Boneshaker said:


> Loose Neutral, I know your last post was directed at Brian.I however would like to point out that the new classifications are an attempt to capture the work that the unions and union contractors have let slip by in past years. It is an attempt to correct past mistakes.



And I reminded you yesterday that we currently handle that work under the inside wireman classification. No need for new classifcations. Although market share has falling in the small works, I think it is more of a immigration problem than a wage problem. Look who's manning that work. The story about Wilm NC, they have no contractors to compete, the problem down there is not wage related, the problem down there is they don't like unions that's why they have no market share. When they are ready to compete, they will still have problems competing because when you look at your competetion you will clearly see the problemo. like I said before, you can't compete with that. Listen, just cuz Ed Hill Thinks this is the way to go, it doesn't make it true. The international is only concerned with new tickets not the ones they have.


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## cmec (Feb 11, 2008)

Boneshaker said:


> Loose Neutral, I know your last post was directed at Brian.I however would like to point out that the new classifications are an attempt to capture the work that the unions and union contractors have let slip by in past years. It is an attempt to correct past mistakes.


 
If the union wants to correct past mistakes , I can think of sevral things to do, that have aggrivated SCAB CONTRACTORS,UNION CONTRACTORS AND APPRENTICES TO THE POINT NEVER CONSIDERING BEING UNION. But why educate them they dont pay me to ,Nor would they cut me a break on anything.

Even brian john admitted his top guns came from non union enviroments.

As far as orginizing I can think of 3 better ways than cw or ce but I am just a dumb scab so I will just smile:no:. I hope this backfires before the standard for the industry erodes.

A while ago RANDOM had a post about somone coming from pa and taking a contract they had ,he said they were non union then he found out it was his brothers working for a reduced rate,DONT think this cant happen with cw ce.


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## Boneshaker (Jul 31, 2009)

I think we may have a regional issue here. You are arguing that this work is currenly being done by illegals. In the area I am in this work is not being done by illegals but by qaulified open shop contractors. I know that this is covered by the inside classification but as I reminded you yesterday we are not doing this work at this time because we can't compete. This is another tool in the contractors bag in an effort assist in this process.


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## cmec (Feb 11, 2008)

Loose Neutral said:


> Listen, just cuz Ed Hill Thinks this is the way to go, it doesn't make it true. The international is only concerned with new tickets not the ones they have.


 EXACTLY 

I would invite you to look at lu 712 ed s home local, look at the 3 county jurisdicton in heart of the rustbelt then you will better understand him.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Loose Neutral said:


> Well I suspected, now I know. That is probably why you fail to see so many good well rounded electricians.


If you noticed my comments did not specify union or not...they include _all_ electricians regardless of affiliation. I know you want to believe that the IBEW is turning out superior, well-rounded electricians, but I'm not buying it. :no:


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

Peter D said:


> If you noticed my comments did not specify union or not...they include _all_ electricians regardless of affiliation. I know you want to believe that the IBEW is turning out superior, well-rounded electricians, but I'm not buying it. :no:


I can only go off the facts you give and a picture say's a 1,000 words. I never said the ibew Is churning out superior electricians, but they do put out good trained well rounded electricians. Fact. It's up to the individual to keep the skills up. I know there are good electricians on the non union side as well as the union. I dont think, the we are better than you idea is good business, in fact I think it is part of the past problems. I do feel they give the chance to be better though. Our hall has a big focus on training and they have classes on a continual basis. If you want them they are there for the taking.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

Boneshaker said:


> I think we may have a regional issue here. You are arguing that this work is currenly being done by illegals. In the area I am in this work is not being done by illegals but by qaulified open shop contractors. I know that this is covered by the inside classification but as I reminded you yesterday we are not doing this work at this time because we can't compete. This is another tool in the contractors bag in an effort assist in this process.



No, I'm saying in my area we are currently doing this work, but losing market share to the non union shops. But NC thats another story. I think the ibew needs to look at other avenues to compete. I just don't think this is the answer. Just lower wages that will fix it. I wish I had the answer but I don't. One thing I have suggested to deaf ears over the years is more advertising. What business do you know that succeeds without it. Our services are our business. Change our image. As you know we have an image problem. I think by promoting us with a new image and emphasize our skills, talk about zero call back issues and job completion under budget rates and such. I just feel with the lower wages the non union will just lower theirs and that is pointless. I don't blame you for giving it a try, the international has been cramming bad ideas down our throats way to long. Hopefully i'm wrong and it works. I doubt it though. Good luck though.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

In regards to open/union shop's differences in cost per manhour,
wages are about the same,
good non-union shops put into the 401k, 
but there is a huge inequality in health benefits, at least around here.

We either have to give up our health benefits to compete, and put the difference on the check, forcing up the non-union wage, or,
the goverenment has to regulate somehow to bring that cost down.
Or, as B. John would say, we'll go the way of the whipmakers.
I myself am all for getting a $24k colonoscopy done for much cheaper in Canada, than here, and pocketing the change.


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## cmec (Feb 11, 2008)

Loose Neutral said:


> No, I just feel with the lower wages the non union will just lower theirs and that is pointless. I don't blame you for giving it a try, the international has been cramming bad ideas down our throats way to long. Hopefully i'm wrong and it works. I doubt it though. Good luck though.


EXACTLY

If you figure the cost of A vehicle , gasoline, insurance AND MAKE $20 AN HOUR BEFORE TAXES WHATS LEFT ?? its a miserable existance bad enough open shop wants you to work for that, NOW THE IBEW ,it isnt even good ISM


YOU CANT RESOLVE A PROBLEM WITH THE SAME LEVEL OF THINKING THAT CREATED IT


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## retired 7373 (Feb 28, 2009)

Boneshaker said:


> As I said in an earlier post these new classifications are an attempt to capture the markets that we are currently not competitive in. The new classifications are for people that are not currently in the union sector, they have no affect on the people that are already members of the union. In my area we are not competitive on schools, gas stations, small retail facilities and things of these types. The opportunity is available for the people that come in this way to complete the apprenticeship and become an "A" member but it is not a requirement. If a particular person comes into the union under one ot these classifications and all he has ever done is light commercial and that is all he ever wants to do than these classifications are for him. They are not for you and I.


Boneshaker,

You need to talk to some of the Locals that have had ce/cw for a few years. Dont talk to the Business Agents, talk to the working members who have to live with the decisions the local makes. I once worked for a cw/ce who was the foremans girlfriend , nice person but had no clue about anything. 
Don,t get in the race to the bottom cycle.


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## retired 7373 (Feb 28, 2009)

Loose Neutral said:


> No, I'm saying in my area we are currently doing this work, but losing market share to the non union shops. But NC thats another story. I think the ibew needs to look at other avenues to compete. I just don't think this is the answer. Just lower wages that will fix it. I wish I had the answer but I don't. One thing I have suggested to deaf ears over the years is more advertising. What business do you know that succeeds without it. Our services are our business. Change our image. As you know we have an image problem. I think by promoting us with a new image and emphasize our skills, talk about zero call back issues and job completion under budget rates and such. I just feel with the lower wages the non union will just lower theirs and that is pointless. I don't blame you for giving it a try, the international has been cramming bad ideas down our throats way to long. Hopefully i'm wrong and it works. I doubt it though. Good luck though.


 
I think the biggest problem is the so called IBEW contractors do not bid jobs unless they believe they can make a large profit. A race to the bottom on wages is not the answer. Contractors that bid jobs is more of an answer.


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## Boneshaker (Jul 31, 2009)

retired 7373 said:


> Boneshaker,
> 
> You need to talk to some of the Locals that have had ce/cw for a few years. Dont talk to the Business Agents, talk to the working members who have to live with the decisions the local makes. I once worked for a cw/ce who was the foremans girlfriend , nice person but had no clue about anything.
> Don,t get in the race to the bottom cycle.


I do know what you mean about a race to the bottom and trust me I am not interested in leading the members down this path. I did however chair a committee that studied the merritts of the cw/ce classifications and found that is did increase market shares in the area that it is currently being used. Believe me this is not an issue that is pushed by the business agents as this causes them more issues with membership. When we accepted this into our contract it was not without much trepidation, we had many heated discussions on the subject before finally coming to a consensus. I don't know if this will ultimately work in re-capturing any work that we have lost, but in my opinion it is better than sitting back and saying I remember when being a union electrician was a viable way to make a living. You've got to change with the times or the times will change without you. We are just trying to be proactive so we can avoid going the way of the dinosaur.


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## Boneshaker (Jul 31, 2009)

retired 7373 said:


> I think the biggest problem is the so called IBEW contractors do not bid jobs unless they believe they can make a large profit. A race to the bottom on wages is not the answer. Contractors that bid jobs is more of an answer.


It is not a matter of a large profit, but merely the ability to make a profit period. I'm an estimator/project manager for one of the larger union shops in my state and I can tell you from experience that we are non-competitive in a large portion of markets. There are no large profit projects up this way anymore, the competition is way to stiff for that. We would bid anything if we thought we had a shot at it but in lots of cases we don't have a shot.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

Boneshaker said:


> It is not a matter of a large profit, but merely the ability to make a profit period. I'm an estimator/project manager for one of the larger union shops in my state and I can tell you from experience that we are non-competitive in a large portion of markets. There are no large profit projects up this way anymore, the competition is way to stiff for that. We would bid anything if we thought we had a shot at it but in lots of cases we don't have a shot.



No wonder your not getting any jobs, your on the computer all day playing with this site. seriously, what do you consider our biggest problem with market share. We lower our price they lower theirs. Why don't we have a shot from the get go?


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## Boneshaker (Jul 31, 2009)

So now you want to make this personal? You want to start tossing arrows at me because we don't agree on something? Not cool.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Boneshaker said:


> So now you want to make this personal? You want to start tossing arrows at me because we don't agree on something? Not cool.


 
I think you were being jabbed at in a fun way and he was asking you a legitimate question.

It is very hard to compete in a market where they (open shops) have a stiff advantage. I have friends that have open shops the same size as mine. They have larger houses, boats, motor cycles, beach houses, sports cars and are in no more debt than I am. Their service rates are almost what ours are but on competitive projects their labor rate is way down from a union shops.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

Boneshaker said:


> So now you want to make this personal? You want to start tossing arrows at me because we don't agree on something? Not cool.



I said seriously after that statement, implying joke now back to business. Lighten up it's Friday baby!!!!


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

brian john said:


> I think you were being jabbed at in a fun way and he was asking you a legitimate question.
> 
> It is very hard to compete in a market where they (open shops) have a stiff advantage. I have friends that have open shops the same size as mine. They have larger houses, boats, motor cycles, beach houses, sports cars and are in no more debt than I am. Their service rates are almost what ours are but on competitive projects their labor rate is way down from a union shops.



So does it basically boil down to the bennies? Because most good non union guys say their pay is comparable.


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## Boneshaker (Jul 31, 2009)

Sorry, I appear to have read a little more into it than was actually meant.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

no problem.


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## cmec (Feb 11, 2008)

Hey guys , I am open shop AND ON DAVIS BACON WORK WHERE WE ALL ARE all on a level playing field, I bid it for 10 and 10,somone union took it for 7&7,THIS BS STARTED ABOUT 2 AND 1/2 YEARS AGO, Ive got 1 union contractor who wants to retire so hees takin everything cheep so he can sell the company and say look at our gross reciepts, SO I AM TAKING MY DADS ADVICE,you can sit at home and not make money(play with the computer:laughing:,the old lady and listen to her afterwards )or take work low and not make money so I geared it down last couple years, Ive got to go do a service call bee back later.


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

Loose Neutral said:


> I think the ibew needs to look at other avenues to compete.


If only it were that simple. Huge thing right now in SoCal is solar. One of the locals has one of the largest private solar arrays in the country. Apparently guys from all over come to learn about solar. Sounds good right? Problem is, roofers are installing the panels (they even make panels that look like concrete tiles), and solar companies are popping up everywhere. All they need is one electrician to hook everything up. The electrician doesn't even need to be state certified. 

The union contractors are not doing this work in SoCal. It's the small fly by night shops looking to collect on the rebate checks.


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## Lone Crapshooter (Nov 8, 2008)

I have been watching this discussion and all I can say is that YOU ARE NOT ALONE. I have some friends that beling to the Plumbers and Pipefitters local and they were telling me that the international came up with a new classfication and I believe they call it a "metal worker". As I understand it on commericial work they can work with a journeyman fitter that is making about $30.00 and the metal worker is making about $10 to $15 an hour. I think they are locked into that rate for at least 4 or 5 years. These are not apprentices they do not recieve any formal training. After that 4 or 5 years they will be allowed to take the first class test. I one of the contractors that hired these metal workers most of their first class people quit because of it. A second contractor said that they were going to use them and the first class people said that they would quit
When I heard about what their international was doing I said you all pay for representation like that.
LC


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

knowshorts said:


> If only it were that simple. Huge thing right now in SoCal is solar. One of the locals has one of the largest private solar arrays in the country. Apparently guys from all over come to learn about solar. Sounds good right? Problem is, roofers are installing the panels (they even make panels that look like concrete tiles), and solar companies are popping up everywhere. All they need is one electrician to hook everything up. The electrician doesn't even need to be state certified.
> 
> The union contractors are not doing this work in SoCal. It's the small fly by night shops looking to collect on the rebate checks.



Same scenario here, roofers getting into it. They have tiles, shingles, attic fans. I think this segment or the industry will be whored out too!!!! I think the ibew missed the boat on this one. Training is way behind on this.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

Lone Crapshooter said:


> I have been watching this discussion and all I can say is that YOU ARE NOT ALONE. I have some friends that beling to the Plumbers and Pipefitters local and they were telling me that the international came up with a new classfication and I believe they call it a "metal worker". As I understand it on commericial work they can work with a journeyman fitter that is making about $30.00 and the metal worker is making about $10 to $15 an hour. I think they are locked into that rate for at least 4 or 5 years. These are not apprentices they do not recieve any formal training. After that 4 or 5 years they will be allowed to take the first class test. I one of the contractors that hired these metal workers most of their first class people quit because of it. A second contractor said that they were going to use them and the first class people said that they would quit
> When I heard about what their international was doing I said you all pay for representation like that.
> LC



After the CW and CE phase will be the new classification " wire nut operator". Can't have an electrician spinning these on, any one can do this.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Loose Neutral said:


> Same scenario here, roofers getting into it. They have tiles, shingles, attic fans. I think this segment or the industry will be whored out too!!!! I think the ibew missed the boat on this one. Training is way behind on this.


In the 80's everyone was all excited about Fiber Optics, the union had classes, had sales reps in to talk to the men, tried to get large groups of men qualified. Who does all the fiber optics work now? Mainly piece workers and low end hourly men.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

brian john said:


> In the 80's everyone was all excited about Fiber Optics, the union had classes, had sales reps in to talk to the men, tried to get large groups of men qualified. Who does all the fiber optics work now? Mainly piece workers and low end hourly men.




Data techs do it here. I think there will always be people trying to take little bites out of our pie, just like the fitters a few years ago trying to claim those light tubes. I still think our value lies in the fact we can do it all. Why deal with 10 contractors when you can deal with one. Brian do you find that your customers like it that way? Knowing they can call you and it's done, big or small. Over the years doing some of the big jobs, we have had members that built the building and stayed there to maintain it, since then from top to bottom. I don't like the industry getting so fragmented. I guess the day of the craftsmen may be over.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Loose Neutral said:


> Are you a union contractor or not? Brian I really don't hear any good stuff from you about Unions.


I have a union shop, ALL my men receive above union benefits (as I have stated before) including sick leave, I just covered one man for 10 weeks sick leave. I am union because I like the union benefits (health and welfare). From a manpower stand point I could just as easily have either men as I do all the training. Their knowledge comes from what I know and what those that work for me know. 

I am union for my men it BUYS ME NOTHING, I have asked every member of the IBEW on this forum over and over show me one benefit of being union FOR ME. From a monetary stand point (money in my pocket) I have less than my open shop associates. What is my win here? Strictly allows me to know my men have the best there is IMO.


Would you be willing to make 20% less or or maybe 25% less to know the apprentice you work with has a decent car, health insurance or any other benefits?




> You have me confused are you running a double breasted shop?


No and SO WHAT IF I WAS, some of the larger shops do to compete. 



> Did You complete a Union Apprenticeship? My bet is sometimes, yes, no. Am I right?


No formal apprenticeship, heck I barely graduated High School. I was not good enough for the IBEW at that time. BUT today most major contractors open shop and union utilize my services. And if need be I can smoke the ass of most apprentices and mechanics.




> Your thoughts about resi are true, like most contractors they want the big works. Over the years they have let a lot of things slip by.


And that's the truth.

At one time all downtown Washington DC was ALL union, during the Metro boom years 1970-1984 the union limited member's and the contractors were swamped with manning a all union project the Metro Subway. The slacked off on their service work (from a lack of manpower) and open shops that would not have dared to go into DC in the 50's and 60's swept in and took a portion of the work.

A little bit the fault of the union and the contractors.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Loose Neutral said:


> . I guess the day of the craftsmen may be over.


 
Actually I think the day of the craftsman is upon us, in our trade. As systems get simplified those that are EMT and MC installers will be relegated to laborer status (UNFORTUNATLY) those with a real skill. PLCs, fire alarm, generator, ATS/paralleling systems electrical testing and trouble shooting will be in demand. and this may be where the break down in the trade begin.

Real craftsmen like those that did ornate carpentry work and stone masons are gone.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

brian john said:


> I have a union shop, ALL my men receive above union benefits (as I have stated before) including sick leave, I just covered one man for 10 weeks sick leave. I am union because I like the union benefits (health and welfare). From a manpower stand point I could just as easily have either men as I do all the training. Their knowledge comes from what I know and what those that work for me know.
> 
> I am union for my men it BUYS ME NOTHING, I have asked every member of the IBEW on this forum over and over show me one benefit of being union FOR ME. From a monetary stand point (money in my pocket) I have less than my open shop associates. What is my win here? Strictly allows me to know my men have the best there is IMO.
> 
> ...



Well this helps me understand your point of view. The IBEW alienated a lot of guys in the past and that created a lot of resentment towards us. As an owner I think the benefit of being a union contractor is the access to a skilled labor pool. It allows you to fluctuate your manpower accordingly. That's huge cause as you know it cost a lot to keep a man for the week. It's nice knowing that if you land a big job you can get the guys asap or if one ends you can lay them off. I commend you for taking care of your men and I'm sure they appreciate it. Our wage is the minimum we get paid. You can always ask for more and if you can justify it, well sometimes you get it. As for the double breasting your right a lot of big company's do it. Money though that goes both way's I know some union contractors living pretty fat too!! Definitely millionaire status. I'm sure you sleep good at night knowing that you do the right thing and your men are happy. If your men are happy, I think they will give you a better product. It sucks cause like you said at one time we had the market cornered and then the guys didn't want to mess with the small stuff and here we are.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Loose Neutral said:


> Well this helps me understand your point of view. The IBEW alienated a lot of guys in the past and that created a lot of resentment towards us. As an owner I think the benefit of being a union contractor is the access to a skilled labor pool. It allows you to fluctuate your manpower accordingly. That's huge cause as you know it cost a lot to keep a man for the week. It's nice knowing that if you land a big job you can get the guys asap or if one ends you can lay them off. I commend you for taking care of your men and I'm sure they appreciate it. Our wage is the minimum we get paid. You can always ask for more and if you can justify it, well sometimes you get it. As for the double breasting your right a lot of big company's do it. Money though that goes both way's I know some union contractors living pretty fat too!! Definitely millionaire status. I'm sure you sleep good at night knowing that you do the right thing and your men are happy. If your men are happy, I think they will give you a better product. It sucks cause like you said at one time we had the market cornered and then the guys didn't want to mess with the small stuff and here we are.


I think this short sightedness was the IBEW and NECA falling asleep at the wheel. 

Limiting membership competing against a group that can have unlimited membership and if times are tight open shop does not have to be concerned about how many are on the bench.

A mentality of NECA members that they only wanted certain work that was VERY profitable and over looking work that could be repeat business even during slow times.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Things are not going to change in reference to the open-shop / union-shop debate.

To contractors and future contractors, this message is not to you.

But one thing that will remain the same is this, if you do not plan on opening up your own shop, and are a great employee, then you best belong in the IBEW. If I was to stay open-shop, and not go out on my own, I could not see any light at the end of the tunnel. After years, and all that hard work, it would be the exception, not the rule, to have a decent retirement. 

I was enlightened a bit when the IES company stock crapt out five years back. Alot of hardworking guys lost their retirement when the company went bankrupt. Sure, you could say they deserved it, for not diversifying into a Roth IRA or some other sophisticated scheme, but for godsakes we're just electricians living day-to-day, not financial counselors. If you guys happen to think the IES stock is going to be a sure-bet from now until kingdom-come, think again, companies based in Texas are known for their 'creative accounting' practices. Wait until the next time IES has a credit crisis, cannot bond work, and stock craps out, history repeats itself.


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