# 120/280V 3 phase



## Dennis Alwon

Edit your post, I think you mean 120/208 V not 280v


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## apollomike

Nope, it is 120/280V coming in.

120/208, and I wouldn't need to ask!


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## Dennis Alwon

apollomike said:


> Nope, it is 120/280V coming in.
> 
> 120/208, and I wouldn't need to ask!


Sorry-- I just never saw 120/280V


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## John

apollomike said:


> Nope, it is 120/280V coming in.
> 
> 120/208, and I wouldn't need to ask!


Go take a picture of the service and post it here .

I picture is worth a thousand words. :thumbup:


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## wildleg

nobody else has either


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## apollomike

Dennis Alwon said:


> Sorry-- I just never saw 120/280V


And me either. After doing a bit of research online, it seems many newer buildings are wired for what they call 120/280V 3 phase, at least that is what I keep seeing in offering brochures.

I know off a 480V system, one leg is 277V, mainly used for lighting, but it isn't that service going in to the building.


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## apollomike

John said:


> Go take a picture of the service and post it here .
> 
> I picture is worth a thousand words. :thumbup:



http://360commercialre.com/blog/properties/17302-daimler-suite-a/

I have no affiliation to that, but look at the service coming in. Same as in the building I am looking to lease.


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## Roger

It is 120/208, I don't care if some dyslexic person said 280.

Roger


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## wildleg

apollomike said:


> And me either. After doing a bit of research online, it seems many newer buildings are wired for what they call 120/280V 3 phase, at least that is what I keep seeing in offering brochures.
> 
> I know off a 480V system, one leg is 277V, mainly used for lighting, but it isn't that service going in to the building.


I would be interested in seeing one of these brochures. Have any links ?
There might be some retards that are confused, and have 120/208, and 277/480 available in their building, and are calling it something that it is not, but if the voltages aren't a 1.73 multiple of each other for 3 phase, then it is something very, very unique. I'm sorry, but I don't believe it. Please show me.


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## Dennis Alwon

Roger said:


> It is 120/208, I don't care if some dyslexic person said 280.
> 
> Roger


That is my bet also.


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## nitro71

First off are you absolutely sure all your equipment will run at 208 or 230 volts? They are not the same thing. If your equipment will operate at both voltages you should be fine as long as it really has a three phase service. Since you will be hiring a electrician I'd hire him right now to go in and check the service and your equipment.


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## wildleg

apollomike said:


> Nope, it is 120/280V coming in.
> 
> 120/208, and I wouldn't need to ask!


you have made a common, fatal mistake: you believed what a realtor told you.


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## apollomike

http://books.google.com/books?id=a9...=10&sqi=2&ved=0CF8Q6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

Look at the pic at the bottom of the page, it is calling out a 120/280V 3 phase/4 wire.


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## nitro71

apollomike said:


> http://books.google.com/books?id=a9...=10&sqi=2&ved=0CF8Q6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q&f=false
> 
> Look at the pic at the bottom of the page, it is calling out a 120/280V 3 phase/4 wire.


Not gonna read that page to find a typo. In the US your voltages will usually be 120/208 or 120/240. Your service isn't anything special unless you are in some ancient old industrial area that had some very odd power requirements.


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## wildleg

apollomike said:


> http://books.google.com/books?id=a9...=10&sqi=2&ved=0CF8Q6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q&f=false
> 
> Look at the pic at the bottom of the page, it is calling out a 120/280V 3 phase/4 wire.


it is a misprint. get your theory under your belt. read about transformers and 3 phase voltage. understand the fundamentals.


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## AFOREMA1

Well you all appear to be wrong. Unlike everyone else I did some research before saying it doesn't exist. It appears to come from a 600v step down to 120/280v y 3 phase system.

Link to a harmonics article talking about it.

http://www.electricity-today.com/et/Feb96/harmonic.htm

It is also the system required by jack in the box franchisees and there are tons of plugs and receptacles rated for 120/280v 3 phase.


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## nitro71

AFOREMA1 said:


> Well you all appear to be wrong. Unlike everyone else I did some research before saying it doesn't exist. It appears to come from a 600v step down to 120/280v y 3 phase system.
> 
> Link to a harmonics article talking about it.
> 
> http://www.electricity-today.com/et/Feb96/harmonic.htm
> 
> It is also the system required by jack in the box franchisees and there are tons of plugs and receptacles rated for 120/280v 3 phase.


Sounds like Canadian power distribution to me. Florida is a long ways from Canada.


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## oldtimer

nitro71 said:


> Sounds like Canadian power distribution to me. Florida is a long ways from Canada.




I am in Canada, and I have never seen, or heard of 120/280 3 phase.

ANYONE??????


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## wildleg

nitro71 said:


> Sounds like Canadian power distribution to me. Florida is a long ways from Canada.


the OP is in Florida


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## wildleg

nitro71 said:


> Sounds like Canadian power distribution to me. Florida is a long ways from Canada.


If you had read the entire article, you would see that the 120/280 was a misprint, because it shows the same transformer specification as 120/208

any more takers ?


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## nitro71

oldtimer said:


> I am in Canada, and I have never seen, or heard of 120/280 3 phase.
> 
> ANYONE??????


But don't they use 600v distribution? I think Aforeman's doc was referencing a 600v service.


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## AFOREMA1

Jack-In-the-Box is based in sothern California and that is the system they require in all their franchises.


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## walkerj

I googled 120/280v and got a bunch of matches. 
Seems like a bunch of typos. 

I agree that if it is a wye source there is no way to have 120v and 280v from one transformer or transformer bank. 

L to G x 1.73 = L to L

There is no way around that.

Sent by my thumbs.


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## AFOREMA1

nitro71 said:


> But don't they use 600v distribution? I think Aforeman's doc was referencing a 600v service.


Yes it is a 600v system stepped down. But it appears the system is being used here as well, as referenced by the jack in the box franchise page requiring it for their stores.


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## wildleg

it doesn't matter if it's 6000V or 60000V. 1.73 for wye or delta 3 phase is what you get.


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## Roger

Okay see the simple geometry below and if anybody can take the same quadrants from C to B and make them total 280 you have an argument, until then it's just hot air.


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## AFOREMA1

walkerj said:


> I googled 120/280v and got a bunch of matches.
> Seems like a bunch of typos.
> 
> I agree that if it is a wye source there is no way to have 120v and 280v from one transformer or transformer bank.
> 
> L to G x 1.73 = L to L
> 
> There is no way around that.
> 
> Sent by my thumbs.


That would be a Hell of a lot of typos, several thousand, in fact by manufacturers and a major electrical magazine. Doesn't seem that likely compared to the likely hood of it just being a new system that we have just not heard of yet.


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## John

This is not something that a POCO will supply from the pole. This looks like an in house derived power supply. 
For some reason it apears to be a modified zigp-zag transformer. don't know...will read more on this. :whistling2:


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## AFOREMA1

John said:


> This is not something that a POCO will supply from the pole. This looks like an in house derived power supply.
> For some reason it apears to be a modified zigp-zag transformer. don't know...will read more on this. :whistling2:


Post if you come up with anything else like to know why this is showing up all over I can't believe everyone is making typos that many times . There most be a benefit to it for it to exist.


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## John

Remove the "/" and replace with "-" =120-280 v supply voltage.

The OP may have 120* to* 280 3 phase that is adjusted to the max 280 volt 3 phase. no 120 volt unless it is adjusted to 120 volt. Basiclly adjust to what voltage the engineer says works for your installation.

You really need to have an electrician look at this before you sign the lease


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## Roger

John said:


> Remove the "/" and replace with "-" =120-280 v supply voltage.
> 
> The OP may have 120* to* 280 single phase.


The OP should simply go put a volt meter on it. 

Roger


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## wildleg

John said:


> Remove the "/" and replace with "-" =120-280 v supply voltage.
> 
> The OP may have 120* to* 280 single phase.


If you were going to write it like that, why wouldn't you just write 120 to 480 single phase (if the intent was to show how much voltage you could get single phase )?


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## apollomike

I will do some more research on it also. The property is in Savannah, GA. It is a fairly new building, less than 10 years old, and in an Industrial area, that was specifically built under a "Development Area" zone. Georgia Power is the POCO. If the realtor would have given me the information earlier in the day, as opposed to 4:45 on a Friday, I could of gotten on the phone to someone, either a local electrician, or Georgia Power, and tried to figure out exactly what it is. 

I guess I will have to wait until Monday. 

Believe me, I agree with many of the posts that say something isn't right with that service. The math doesn't add up. I originally took it as a typo myself, buy when I started looking into it, I found way too many "typos" for it to be a typo.

I do appreciate the many responses I have received so far, and will post the answers I get from Georgia Power and/or the local electrician when I get it. 

Any more responses until then would be very helpful also.


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## wildleg

apollomike said:


> I will do some more research on it also. The property is in Savannah, GA. It is a fairly new building, less than 10 years old, and in an Industrial area, that was specifically built under a "Development Area" zone. Georgia Power is the POCO. If the realtor would have given me the information earlier in the day, as opposed to 4:45 on a Friday, I could of gotten on the phone to someone, either a local electrician, or Georgia Power, and tried to figure out exactly what it is.
> 
> I guess I will have to wait until Monday.
> 
> Believe me, I agree with many of the posts that say something isn't right with that service. The math doesn't add up. I originally took it as a typo myself, buy when I started looking into it, I found way too many "typos" for it to be a typo.
> 
> I do appreciate the many responses I have received so far, and will post the answers I get from Georgia Power and/or the local electrician when I get it.
> 
> Any more responses until then would be very helpful also.


here are the voltages currently offered by Georgia Power:

http://www.georgiapower.com/pricing/files/GeorgiaPowerRulesRegs.pdf
(this document shows it was revised in 2011, and the page was revised 2008 and hasn't been changed as of 2011)

(page number 1.13)(your browser may say page 7)


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## John

wildleg said:


> If you were going to write it like that, why wouldn't you just write 120 to 480 single phase (if the intent was to show how much voltage you could get single phase )?


Look on the power supply to your computer. Mine says" input voltage 100-240 VAC" 

This is a electrical service for computer loads that the OP is looking at.


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## AFOREMA1

http://www.jackinthebox.com/corporate/franchising/real-estate-development/site-criteria/

Jack in the box must be clueless too as they only have a whole crew of engineers? They have it listed for their electrical requirement.


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## wildleg

John said:


> Look on the power supply to your computer. Mine says" input voltage 100-240 VAC"
> 
> This is a electrical service for computer loads that the OP is looking at.


exactly, because it can use 120 - 240. Your hypotheses seems to be that if 277 were available at the service, it would say 120-280 ? but if 277 was available at the service, then 480 would also be available, so it would read 120 -480, not 120-280, for that to make sense. kapish ?


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## John

wildleg said:


> here are the voltages currently offered by Georgia Power:
> 
> http://www.georgiapower.com/pricing/files/GeorgiaPowerRulesRegs.pdf
> (this document shows it was revised in 2011, and the page was revised 2008 and hasn't been changed as of 2011)
> 
> (page number 1.13)(your browser may say page 7)



600 volt 3 wire 3 phase. :whistling2:

Now convert it, after the service to an engineered 120 to 280 3 wire 3 phase (Delta), to what ever voltage is specficied


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## wildleg

AFOREMA1 said:


> http://www.jackinthebox.com/corporate/franchising/real-estate-development/site-criteria/
> 
> Jack in the box must be clueless too as they only have a whole crew of engineers? They have it listed for their electrical requirement.


they have a typo on their form, that's all.


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## Roger

AFOREMA1 said:


> http://www.jackinthebox.com/corporate/franchising/real-estate-development/site-criteria/
> 
> Jack in the box must be clueless too as they only have a whole crew of engineers? They have it listed for their electrical requirement.


I'd say more typos or they are also dyslexic

Roger


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## AFOREMA1

wildleg said:


> here are the voltages currently offered by Georgia Power:
> 
> http://www.georgiapower.com/pricing/files/GeorgiaPowerRulesRegs.pdf
> (this document shows it was revised in 2011, and the page was revised 2008 and hasn't been changed as of 2011)
> 
> (page number 1.13)(your browser may say page 7)


Your link is showing nothing for me, regardless any voltage can be achieved wither the right transformer.


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## wildleg

John said:


> 600 volt 3 wire 3 phase. :whistling2:
> 
> Now convert it, after the service to an engineered 120 to 280 3 wire 3 phase (Delta), to what ever voltage is specficied


I dont' know what to say, I guess you are clueless.


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## John

wildleg said:


> exactly, because it can use 120 - 240. Your hypotheses seems to be that if 277 were available at the service, it would say 120-280 ? but if 277 was available at the service, then 480 would also be available, so it would read 120 -480, not 120-280, for that to make sense. kapish ?


It's very hard to form a good hypotheses on very limited information, most of which is derived from the internet. :no:


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## John

wildleg said:


> I dont' know what to say, I guess you are clueless.


not clueless just informationless.


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## walkerj

If it was similar to center tap delta then it would be 140/280

Sent by my thumbs.


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## AFOREMA1

It's also showing as stone cold creamery and several other businesses as their preffered voltage requirement for their facilities. And several real estate brochures show their buildings have 120/208 and seperate 120/280 panels.


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## dronai

This is all I could dig up:

A- Bring your *electrical* license application to the Buildings Department Licensing unit at *280* Broadway, 6th Floor, at Chambers Street in Lower Manhattan. Q - Where *...* 

Bell Telephone stock for several days past *has* been hovering between 220 and *280*. *....* The Hartford *Electric* Light *Company has* now in actual use 425 *...*

Mike Holts Site a registration in the state as a professional *electrical* engineer plus management experience or *...* Exam Given By: Prometric: 1 (800) *280*-3926. *.....*

*And this Auto transformer http://www.ebay.com/itm/Superior-Electric-Powerstat-2PF236-280V-autotransformer-/190569141587*


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## AFOREMA1

dronai said:


> This is all I could dig up:
> 
> A- Bring your *electrical* license application to the Buildings Department Licensing unit at *280* Broadway, 6th Floor, at Chambers Street in Lower Manhattan. Q - Where *...*
> 
> Bell Telephone stock for several days past *has* been hovering between 220 and *280*. *....* The Hartford *Electric* Light *Company has* now in actual use 425 *...*
> 
> Mike Holts Site a registration in the state as a professional *electrical* engineer plus management experience or *...* Exam Given By: Prometric: 1 (800) *280*-3926. *.....*
> 
> *And this Auto transformer http://www.ebay.com/itm/Superior-Electric-Powerstat-2PF236-280V-autotransformer-/190569141587*


Then your search was for 280? Try search term 120/280v


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## kaboler

Never heard of it in Canada.

CEC:

8-100 Current Calculations

When calculating currents.... the voltage divisors to be used shall be 120, 208, 240, 277, 347, 416, 480, or 600 as applicable.

That's about it!


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## apollomike

Ok, there just seems to be way too many typos, which is what has me puzzled. Cold Stone, Jack-in-the-Box, La Salsa, certain shopping malls, some generators, some transformers, some government buildings, other commercial/industrial buildings.

I will call Georgia Power on Monday, and ask what they have for service on the property. If they tell me 120/280V, I still won't know what the true answer is, and an electrician will have to go in and check it for me. If they tell me 120/208V, then there truly are a bunch of dyslexic, fat-fingered typists out there.


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## AFOREMA1

apollomike said:


> Ok, there just seems to be way too many typos, which is what has me puzzled. Cold Stone, Jack-in-the-Box, La Salsa, certain shopping malls, some generators, some transformers, some government buildings, other commercial/industrial buildings.
> 
> I will call Georgia Power on Monday, and ask what they have for service on the property. If they tell me 120/280V, I still won't know what the true answer is, and an electrician will have to go in and check it for me. If they tell me 120/208V, then there truly are a bunch of dyslexic, fat-fingered typists out there.


That is what is puzzling me as well. It shows up way too much and in too many well known companies. That would be an epic amount of typos.


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## Dennis Alwon

Roger said:


> Okay see the simple geometry below and if anybody can take the same quadrants from C to B and make them total 280 you have an argument, until then it's just hot air.



It would be mathematically impossible to have a triangle where the 3rd side is larger than the sum of "AC" plus "BC". It can only be less than not greater than. A straight line is 240 in that diagram


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## Roger

Dennis Alwon said:


> It would be mathematically impossible to have a triangle where the 3rd side is larger than the sum of "AC" plus "BC". It can only be less than not greater than. A straight line is 240 in that diagram


Dennis, don't bother pointing out facts, you'll just be frustrated.

Roger


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## Dennis Alwon

Roger said:


> Dennis, don't bother pointing out facts, you'll just be frustrated.
> 
> Roger


 :laughing:

:hang::hang:


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## apollomike

After a couple more emails to the Realtor and Property Owner, it turns out he did transpose the two numbers. The owner went in with an electrician he has on staff today(Saturday) and checked again.

120/208V 3 phase.
250A

That will work.

Thanks again everyone for your responses. 

I still find it strange how many people have transposed/mis-typed/are dyslexic, especially on this one item when you search it online.

And now add one more result to the "120/280V" google search. This thread.


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## Shockdoc

Put your meter between two phases in the panel I guarantee you it will read anywhere from 206 to 212 volts. No such thing as 120/280 volts unless you have two seperate systems of 277 and 120.


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## McClary’s Electrical

Roger nailed it on the first page.


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## koha

I've been around industry a long time and have never seen one but apparently it does exist.
__The math does not work for a common Wye or Delta system. It would have to be some auto transformer or duel transformer configuration. Than there rises the question: Why would they? What is the advantage? I have more questions than answers.


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## don_resqcapt19

AFOREMA1 said:


> http://www.jackinthebox.com/corporate/franchising/real-estate-development/site-criteria/
> 
> Jack in the box must be clueless too as they only have a whole crew of engineers? They have it listed for their electrical requirement.


Listed where...on the franchise documents, or on actual plans and specs for construction? Real Estate listings and franchise documents are not written by people with a technical back ground.


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## JRaef

don_resqcapt19 said:


> Listed where...on the franchise documents, or on actual plans and specs for construction? Real Estate listings and franchise documents are not written by people with a technical back ground.


I think that hits the nail on the head right there. It may have even been one simple mistake, then because it showed up on some spec document that involved an installation, and that document got published to the web, lazy people all over just copied and pasted the same mistake over and over and over. Bingo, "thousands" of typos. It may have even ended up loaded into the spell checker at some publications company and every time it saw 120/208, the stupid thing "fixed" it to say 120/280. There are all kinds of ways this could have happened when technical documents are handled by non-technical people.


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## ilikepez

Are you guys still fighting about it after the OP came back and said it was 120/208?


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## joethemechanic

JRaef said:


> I think that hits the nail on the head right there. It may have even been one simple mistake, then because it showed up on some spec document that involved an installation, and that document got published to the web, lazy people all over just copied and pasted the same mistake over and over and over. Bingo, "thousands" of typos. It may have even ended up loaded into the spell checker at some publications company and every time it saw 120/208, the stupid thing "fixed" it to say 120/280. There are all kinds of ways this could have happened when technical documents are handled by non-technical people.



Yeah those idiotic sales people, they flap their lips way too much. They are never good with things like facts. Why the Phuck do people believe them?


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## Yankj

nitro71 said:


> Not gonna read that page to find a typo. In the US your voltages will usually be 120/208 or 120/240. Your service isn't anything special unless you are in some ancient old industrial area that had some very odd power requirements.


 That has to be a misprint. Look at the diagram. What operates on 280Volts?


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## RIVETER

apollomike said:


> Nope, it is 120/280V coming in.
> 
> 120/208, and I wouldn't need to ask!


Dennis is not usually wrong.


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## JmanAllen

AFOREMA1 said:


> Well you all appear to be wrong. Unlike everyone else I did some research before saying it doesn't exist. It appears to come from a 600v step down to 120/280v y 3 phase
> 
> 
> It is also the system required by jack in the box franchisees and there are tons of plugs and receptacles rated for 120/280v 3 phase.


I've done 3 jack in the box restaurants and that's news to me

Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


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## BBQ

ilikepez said:


> Are you guys still fighting about it after the OP came back and said it was 120/208?



Someone close this zombie thread. :jester:


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## Wirenuting

BBQ said:


> Someone close this zombie thread. :jester:


ZORT approved.


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## McClary’s Electrical

JmanAllen said:


> I've done 3 jack in the box restaurants and that's news to me
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


 
the post you quoted was written by someone with no electrical knowledge.


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## wildleg

aw, man, I was hoping that the op came up with some more proof. I mean, _how could all those real estate ads be wrong ????????_


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## JmanAllen

mcclary's electrical said:


> the post you quoted was written by someone with no electrical knowledge.


I figured as much but with as much sure he was about that I had to throw that out there

Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


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## FireInTheWire

Roger said:


> Okay see the simple geometry below and if anybody can take the same quadrants from C to B and make them total 280 you have an argument, until then it's just hot air.


THIS!!!! 

Im reading about this stuff right now (school) and the picture diagram really drove the concept home for me. :thumbup: Thaaaaanks!


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## Peerless Design

*Dyslexia is Very Common*

It doesn't matter what brochures, or technical data anyone comes up with regarding 120/280 V power. It is a mathematical impossibility to obtain this voltage from the delta wye transformers as depicted.

The voltage from one phase to neutral (120V) times the square root of three (1.73) = 208V not 280.

Jim Smith, PE, LC, RCDD, CET


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## Southeast Power

Im still wondering what kind of business he would be opening in an old Jack-n-the-box location.


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## joethemechanic

jrannis said:


> Im still wondering what kind of business he would be opening in an old Jack-n-the-box location.


An adult book store

He's going to call it 


*"Jack in the Booth"*


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## wildleg

that's funny.

I love the fact that this thread is still alive.

Keep the 120/280 Alive !


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## reddog552

*Three phase power*

I got 135v-240v 3 Ph.


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## retiredsparktech

joethemechanic said:


> an adult book store
> 
> he's going to call it
> 
> 
> *"jack in the booth"*


Now, That is funneee!


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## Southeast Power

240, 241, I not sure what I'm going to use


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## Hairbone

I think the misprint started here: 220....221 whatever it takes:laughing:


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## John

Ya know if we keep talking about 120/280 volt we can make it a fact. 

So spread the word :thumbsup: ......go to another forum and ask the question. :jester:


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