# Lighting Control for 16,000 watts of HPS



## 99Eternal (Jun 15, 2014)

Greetings!

Well, I've agreed to help a friend take on a project for an MMPR warehouse, but I may be in over my head as far as the design of the lighting control system.

He has two rooms. Each with 16 1000 watt hps lamps (so 16 lamps in each room, total of 32 bulbs. He wishes to run only 16 ballasts and switch power from one room to the other, every 12 hours. Each room would get 12 hours lights on, 12 hours lights off.

I am thinking about using a 24hr timer to trigger lighting contactors.

Would I simply get a double pole double throw 240v timer, hook one of each throws up to a contactor (1 for each room) that can handle the amperage of these 16 lamps? And then the two hots go through the contacts, neutrals marette in the contactor panel, and both then go out to my receptacles?

Or is my thinking wrong in using the double throw on the timer as a relay to switch between the two rooms? The timer wouldn't have the load current pass through it obviously.

Any advice whether I am on the right track here would be greatly appreciated. :thumbup:


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## dspiffy (Nov 25, 2013)

Just want to make sure I am understanding this correctly . . . one room will be in the dark for 12 hours, then the next room will be in the dark for 12 hours? Why?!


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

dspiffy said:


> Just want to make sure I am understanding this correctly . . . one room will be in the dark for 12 hours, then the next room will be in the dark for 12 hours? Why?!


That's what I want to know.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

I wonder what crop is being grown under these lights?


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## 99Eternal (Jun 15, 2014)

I suppose I should have elaborated as to what exactly this MMPR warehouse is.
This is a federally licensed medical marijuana facility (Marijuana for Medical Purposes Regulations). 

In the flowering phase, the plants need only 12 hours of daylight each 24 hour period.

Instead of purchasing 16 additional ballasts, and an additional timing system/load center for them, it is much cheaper to relay the power using the existing loadcenter and ballasts, using the existing timer. The outputs from each ballast are split through a relay which is connected to the timer. One set of N.O. one set N.C.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

I think if I was running a weed farm, I wouldn't be too concerned about buying a couple of dozen ballasts.
Unless he's one of the cheap Canadians that winter out here, don't tip and try to live on a dollar a day.


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## wcord (Jan 23, 2011)

Won't work.
You want to use 1 ballast for every 2 lamps.
In theory, switching lamps do one or the other is on, is possible, EXCEPT, for the ignitor circuit which is needed to fire the lamp.
Plus, the cost would be more, when you take into account the voltage drop from the ballast to the lamps. And we haven't even thought about getting Hydro approval for the design.
The cost of fixtures is so cheap, just buy 32 and install them


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

Sharing ballasts like that sounds overcomplicated to me and it would reduce flexibility. The higher initial investment of one ballast per light can't be that much more than adding relays and all that, right? They should get twice the longevity out of the system too.


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

wcord said:


> Won't work.
> You want to use 1 ballast for every 2 lamps.
> In theory, switching lamps do one or the other is on, is possible, EXCEPT, for the ignitor circuit which is needed to fire the lamp.
> Plus, the cost would be more, when you take into account the voltage drop from the ballast to the lamps. And we haven't even thought about getting Hydro approval for the design.
> The cost of fixtures is so cheap, just buy 32 and install them


What is Hydro approval?


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

99Eternal said:


> Greetings!
> 
> Well, I've agreed to help a friend take on a project for an MMPR warehouse, but I may be in over my head as far as the design of the lighting control system.
> 
> ...


Sharing ballasts is... well just dumb.


One single pole double throw timer.
Two ASCO lighting contactors.
32 COMPLETE fixtures.
Wire one ASCO normally for one room, in the other swap the on/off control wires to the opposite terminals as the first. 
I'd think about an auxiliary light in each room in case entry is needed when in it's "dark" period. 

BTW you say that "when in it's flowering stage" only 12 hours of light are needed, but what about during the other stages?


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## 99Eternal (Jun 15, 2014)

apparently this is common practice in these facilities to flip using a relay on a timer, and they generally all use HPS not MH during the 12 hour growth cycle. it seems lamp ignition isn't an issue although i do question that myself. I think this is because the load presented on the ballast by the lamp is what dictates how the ballast performs.

There are manufactured "flip boxes" available that do what he needs but I question the quality of the contactors and wanted to compare the cost of them to building my own system with some quality components.

http://nowirenuts.ca/ this guy builds these systems, I've seen them in other facilities, so I know it can be done. I was just hoping someone would be familiar and could point me to the most cost effective method.


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## dspiffy (Nov 25, 2013)

The original post sounded like they already had the fixtures, and was just trying to figure out controls.

I dont see why you couldnt use one timer and as many contactors as necessary. You could even use a basic single pole 120vAC timer, a DPDT relay, contactors. How many lighting circuits are there?

EDITED . . . Nope I misread. They really do want to share ballasts.


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## 99Eternal (Jun 15, 2014)

Could you explain why it is "dumb"? Surely you can see the logic behind it financially. And from what I've seen this is common.
I am totally open to hearing why it's not good electrically speaking. I want to do the right thing here.

For the vegetative state, there will be a separate room which will run 18 hours on 6 hours off. This can't be split in half and shared like the flowering phase because of the 18/6 time schedule.


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## dspiffy (Nov 25, 2013)

Cost effective method is to install 32 fixtures with 32 ballasts and control them accordingly. What you might save in ballasts you'll spend in wire, controls, and labor.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Sounds like a combination of reinventing the wheel and solving a problem that doesn't exist. 

Buy 32 whole fixtures, 2 Asco's, and your timer(s). Keep it simple. That way, anyone at all can work on the thing. You won't be saving a damn thing remoting two fixtures off one ballast by the time you get it wired up. Plus, when a ballast fails, you're down two fixtures instead of one.


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

99Eternal said:


> Could you explain why it is "dumb"? Surely you can see the logic behind it financially. And from what I've seen this is common.
> I am totally open to hearing why it's not good electrically speaking. I want to do the right thing here.
> 
> For the vegetative state, there will be a separate room which will run 18 hours on 6 hours off. This can't be split in half and shared like the flowering phase because of the 18/6 time schedule.


Did you read my post? It seems like flexibility would be a big issue. Different plants might do better with varying cycles. You could not make many changes with your setup. I would think that maximizing your crop yield is the most important thing. Installing a light with it's own ballast simplifies things and doubles the life expectancy of the install, and provides more flexibility.

I don't know why I'm trying to help a drug dealer anyways.


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## 99Eternal (Jun 15, 2014)

dspiffy said:


> The original post sounded like they already had the fixtures, and was just trying to figure out controls.
> 
> I dont see why you couldnt use one timer and as many contactors as necessary. You could even use a basic single pole 120vAC timer, a DPDT relay, contactors. How many lighting circuits are there?


He already has 16 full fixtures sitting at the site. 
Needs to fill the space, wants to do it cost effective as possible, hes convinced relaying the power is the way to go vs buying 16 more ballasts.

He's got a 225amp 120/240 panel with only a few breakers, only has some highbays and receptacles tied into the panel at the moment. 

We have more than enough room in the panel i believe to add enough breakers for his lighting, a/c and additional receptacles for his fans etc.


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

99Eternal said:


> .... hes convinced relaying the power is the way to go vs buying 16 more ballasts......


Who is he? An electrical expert? People usually hire me to tell them which way is the way to go. Think about it and then set him straight.


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## dspiffy (Nov 25, 2013)

The 16 fixtures sitting at the site . . . he would essentially have to buy 16 more fixtures that are compatible with the ballasts in these fixtures, but did not include ballasts of their own. At that point it's already more trouble than it's worth.


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## 99Eternal (Jun 15, 2014)

CFL said:


> Did you read my post? It seems like flexibility would be a big issue. Different plants might do better with varying cycles. You could not make many changes with your setup. I would think that maximizing your crop yield is the most important thing. Installing a light with it's own ballast simplifies things and doubles the life expectancy of the install, and provides more flexibility.
> 
> I don't know why I'm trying to help a drug dealer anyways.


I was asking IslandGuy why he feels it's dumb to relay ballast outputs as he did not include a reason...if I accidently directed my reply to you instead of him I apologize. No need to get defensive.

He does not want the ability to make changes to the light schedule, thanks for your concern though.

Lastly, I am not a drug dealer. I'm an electrical apprentice. the man I am helping is far from a drug dealer. It's an MMPR compliant federally licensed and regulated facility. His patients are licensed by the government of Canada to possess it. So it's legal, not for recreation. If you are one of the cave men who thinks marijuana has no medical value you are obviously unaware of the recent advancements in CBD treatments for chronic epilepsy especially in young children who cannot handle the pharmaceutical drugs necessary to prevent seizures, which most people report little to no results from anyways, usually only the negative sideffects are realized. Cannabinoids have also been proven by several university studies to send carcinogenic tumors into remission. 

You aren't helping a drug dealer, you are helping someone recognized and licensed by the government of Canada to produce medicine in a federally regulated environment. Pull your head out of your ass, already.


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## 99Eternal (Jun 15, 2014)

CFL said:


> Who is he? An electrical expert? People usually hire me to tell them which way is the way to go. Think about it and then set him straight.


Obviously he is not an expert, or he would not have gone to his electrical apprentice friend(not the best place to go) for advice.

I understand your point regarding the life of the ballasts. This is something he and I have already discussed. He does not have unlimited funds, this is a federally regulated facility, his lighting costs are the least of his worries financially speaking, he can't justify 16 additional ballasts even though he'd get his money out of them in the end.

If the price of setting up a control system is going to be close to the cost of the additional ballasts, absolutely I will recommend he just buys the additional ballasts. That's why I came on here...to see what ppl with more experience would do in my shoes.


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

99Eternal said:


> I was asking IslandGuy why he feels it's dumb to relay ballast outputs as he did not include a reason...if I accidently directed my reply to you instead of him I apologize. No need to get defensive.
> 
> He does not want the ability to make changes to the light schedule, thanks for your concern though.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry, I should have said drug cultivater. 

I knew you weren't directing anything at me, so I wasn't defensive. I wanted to know if you read my post. I guess you did. I am a caveman, and you are obviously a pothead. Which goes to show the affect drugs have because I am smarter than you. Now I'm going to go beat my wife.


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## dspiffy (Nov 25, 2013)

Legal drugs are still drugs. Helping a legal drug dealer is still helping a drug dealer. I'm sure he'd feel the same way consulting to factories for Johnson and Johnson.


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## 99Eternal (Jun 15, 2014)

CFL said:


> I'm sorry, I should have said drug cultivater.
> 
> I knew you weren't directing anything at me, so I wasn't defensive. I wanted to know if you read my post. I guess you did. I am a caveman, and you are obviously a pothead. Which goes to show the affect drugs have because I am smarter than you. Now I'm going to go beat my wife.


Smarter than me? cultivater? I believe it is spelled cultivator. Thanks, though.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

99Eternal said:


> Obviously he is not an expert, or he would not have gone to his electrical apprentice friend(not the best place to go) for advice.
> 
> I understand your point regarding the life of the ballasts. This is something he and I have already discussed. He does not have unlimited funds, this is a federally regulated facility, his lighting costs are the least of his worries financially speaking, he can't justify 16 additional ballasts even though he'd get his money out of them in the end.
> 
> If the price of setting up a control system is going to be close to the cost of the additional ballasts, absolutely I will recommend he just buys the additional ballasts. That's why I came on here...to see what ppl with more experience would do in my shoes.


And you should be banned immediately for not being an electrician.

Ibtl.


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## dspiffy (Nov 25, 2013)

Spelling is far more important than being able to wire up 32,000 watts of light fixtures, or determining that ballast sharing is a bad idea. Glad you've got everything under control.


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## 99Eternal (Jun 15, 2014)

dspiffy said:


> Legal drugs are still drugs. Helping a legal drug dealer is still helping a drug dealer. I'm sure he'd feel the same way consulting to factories for Johnson and Johnson.


Are you changing the subject/trolling because you lack the intelligence to provide any relevant information? 

"he would essentially have to buy 16 more fixtures that are compatible with the ballasts in these fixtures, but did not include ballasts of their own."

....


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## dspiffy (Nov 25, 2013)

You're not going to get the help you need by insulting everyone that tries to help you. I'm not sure if that works anywhere, but it definitely doesnt work here.


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

I was just playing around. I know you guys aren't drug dealers. I did misspell cultivator, but I'm blaming autocorrect, cause it always screws me up.

Seriously though, 16 light fixtures or 16 ballasts should not break the bank.

Someone else mentioned having additional lighting as well, which I think is essential and probably legally required. Some halogen flood lights or a few high bay fluorescents should do the job. It's gonna be dark in there until those HPS's come on.


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## 99Eternal (Jun 15, 2014)

dspiffy said:


> You're not going to get the help you need by insulting everyone that tries to help you. I'm not sure if that works anywhere, but it definitely doesnt work here.


Not sure who I directed an insult at here, other than the person who claimed the idea was dumb without providing an explanation, and the people insinuating that I am a drug dealer or am helping a drug dealer. There is a large difference between a street drug (drug dealers) and pharmaceutical drugs. 
I think it's quite clear who is making the instigating comments here. Don't attempt to put me down for putting people making comments intended to incite an argument in their place.

Let's end the drama here and get onto the facts of the topic at hand.

The fact that the ballasts will not last as long in terms of actual time (and not running hours) seems like a null argument. They will burn a 1000watt lamp for the same amount of hours total before they die with either method, will they not? Whether they last 2 years at 12on/12off or 1 year running 24/7, you have gotten the same amount of light hours from them in the end.

For someone struggling to afford to startup a business, it may be worth saving on startup, in exchange for having to swap out ballasts earlier than normal (which is quite easy). Again i would think you'd get the same amount of burning hours, the same amount of product from the ballast, so this is more of a labor/convenience issue(no problem) than electrical or financial which are the two main concerns I have.


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## dspiffy (Nov 25, 2013)

What we are trying to explain is that sourcing, configuring, and installing what you would need to share ballasts will not be a significant cost savings, will be a lot more work and headache, and less useful in the long run. I understand that we lack the intelligence to communicate this to a more advanced being such as yourself, but you came here and asked for advice, so this is what you'll have to make do with.


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

Apprentices shouldn't be doing unsupervised electrical work, no matter how well they can spell. Bring someone in who knows what they're doing.


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## 99Eternal (Jun 15, 2014)

ponyboy said:


> Apprentices shouldn't be doing unsupervised electrical work, no matter how well they can spell. Bring someone in who knows what they're doing.


When did I state that I would be doing this work myself? Well, I will be, but under the guidance of a licensed electrician. He will ultimately decide what ends up going in this place, but since he isn't available for a while I am helping my friend figure out if this relay method is even plausible. 
It's a federally regulated facility, we are going to have to pull permits for everything. Not sure how I would be able to do that as an apprentice.

Thanks for the useless post, asshole.


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## dspiffy (Nov 25, 2013)

Starting to get the impression more and more that the OP is, in fact, the facility owner (or tenant) trying to do the work himself . . . and that it's not a licensed, legal growing operation.


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## longfeather (May 11, 2014)

dspiffy said:


> Starting to get the impression more and more that the OP is, in fact, the facility owner (or tenant) trying to do the work himself . . . and that it's not a licensed, legal growing operation.


Same, The saving babies with weed rant did it for me


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

99Eternal said:


> When did I state that I would be doing this work myself? Well, I will be, but under the guidance of a licensed electrician. He will ultimately decide what ends up going in this place, but since he isn't available for a while I am helping my friend figure out if this relay method is even plausible. It's a federally regulated facility, we are going to have to pull permits for everything. Not sure how I would be able to do that as an apprentice. Thanks for the useless post, asshole.


Then let the guy with the know how decide how to do this install. You obviously have no clue what you're doing. Thanks for the warm wishes, dbag.


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## Tsmil (Jul 17, 2011)

Be sure the relays you use can handle the output voltage of the ballasts. About 400 volts.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

99Eternal said:


> I was asking IslandGuy why he feels it's dumb to relay ballast outputs as he did not include a reason...if I accidently directed my reply to you instead of him I apologize. No need to get defensive.


 Because each ballasted fixture is going to need a relay to choose which lamp it's going to power. That's 16 relays. They'll have to be able to handle the thousands of volts the ballast puts out. Not exactly an off the shelf item.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

How has this guy not been banned already?


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

dspiffy said:


> Just want to make sure I am understanding this correctly . . . one room will be in the dark for 12 hours, then the next room will be in the dark for 12 hours? Why?!


Because he's growing pot. 


LOL, Serious? You had to ask? 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk


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## dspiffy (Nov 25, 2013)

five.five-six said:


> Because he's growing pot.
> 
> 
> LOL, Serious? You had to ask?
> ...


Why cant it be the same 12 hours for both crops?

I know nothing of pot, or botany.


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## dspiffy (Nov 25, 2013)

MTW said:


> How has this guy not been banned already?


The MODs love pot.


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## 99Eternal (Jun 15, 2014)

ponyboy said:


> Then let the guy with the know how decide how to do this install. You obviously have no clue what you're doing. Thanks for the warm wishes, dbag.


You are right, I don't know. That's why I am here. asking if the proposed idea is feasible. Thanks again for nothing, useless twat.


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## FrunkSlammer (Aug 31, 2013)

dspiffy said:


> Why cant it be the same 12 hours for both crops?


Because that would be double the power?


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## 99Eternal (Jun 15, 2014)

IslandGuy said:


> Because each ballasted fixture is going to need a relay to choose which lamp it's going to power. That's 16 relays. They'll have to be able to handle the thousands of volts the ballast puts out. Not exactly an off the shelf item.
> Thanks. That's the info I am looking for, hadn't considered the voltage rating as they do couple out a few thousand kv. Sockets are rated for 6kv I know that.
> 
> I can certainly see those costing about the same as a ballast, shall see if I can find anything.
> ...


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## 99Eternal (Jun 15, 2014)

dspiffy said:


> Why cant it be the same 12 hours for both crops?
> 
> I know nothing of pot, or botany.


Mainly because of all the extra heat created, extra cost of AC required to control the temperature. And he'd like to avoid buying 16 more ballasts.

There's a reason this is common practice in these types of facilities, it's about keeping initial and recurring costs down. 

Anyways, thanks for those of you who made an effort to help (even though some of you were DINKS in the process). 

We will research the costs of 16 proper relays vs 16 ballasts and see what the top dog says about all this when he's in town.

Thanks again!


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## dspiffy (Nov 25, 2013)

FrunkSlammer said:


> Because that would be double the power?


Many power companies offer reduced rates during non peak hours. If he set it so all 32 fixtures operated largely during off peak hours, he could save money that way.



99Eternal said:


> Mainly because of all the extra heat created, extra cost of AC required to control the temperature. And he'd like to avoid buying 16 more ballasts.


The same amount of heat is created, just at different times in different places. These are two separate rooms you're speaking of.

Either way he has to buy 16 more fixtures, yes? Buying 16 fixtures with or without ballasts should be a negligible cost difference. I cant even recall having seen fixtures for sale without ballasts. Ballasts are cheap.



99Eternal said:


> We will research the costs of 16 proper relays vs 16 ballasts and see what the top dog says about all this when he's in town.


There is a lot more cost involved than just 16 relays, that's what we're trying to get you to see. The wiring is different (read: more expensive). The controls are different (read: more expensive).

You came on here to ask people who often purchase and install bulk commercial lighting for the most cost effective suggestion. That's what we're giving you.


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

dspiffy said:


> Why cant it be the same 12 hours for both crops?
> 
> I know nothing of pot, or botany.


They are trying to save money on cooling, service size, conductor size etc. It's the kind of thing people think up when they have smoked too much pot.


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## dspiffy (Nov 25, 2013)

five.five-six said:


> They are trying to save money on cooling, service size, conductor size etc. It's the kind of thing people think up when they have smoked too much pot.


I cant fathom how this will accomplish any of that. Maybe I need to try pot.


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## FrunkSlammer (Aug 31, 2013)

dspiffy said:


> I cant fathom how this will accomplish any of that. Maybe I need to try pot.


Aren't you the guy who buys LED's directly from China with no UL marks or any certification and puts them into churches? 

At least this guy's doing legal work. :whistling2:


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## 99Eternal (Jun 15, 2014)

dspiffy said:


> Many power companies offer reduced rates during non peak hours. If he set it so all 32 fixtures operated largely during off peak hours, he could save money that way.
> 
> The same amount of heat is created, just at different times in different places. These are two separate rooms you're speaking of.
> 
> Either way he has to buy 16 more fixtures, yes? Buying 16 fixtures with or without ballasts should be a negligible cost difference. I cant even recall having seen fixtures for sale without ballasts. Ballasts are cheap.


It's not that simple the amount of heat is not the same. Reconsider that. More heat is created running 32,000 watts at once vs splitting into 16,000watts in 2 12 hour periods. That is because there is space in the building, half of it in fact, helping moderate the temperature. The A/C drops the temperature of the "off" room quickly. The heat with 32,000 watts at once would build up so much faster, and potentially a larger BTU ac unit may be required to keep temperatures under control. Remember this is not a commercial building, these 1000w lights are only a few feet apart covering roughly 5x5 we aren't talking about a few high bays a mile apart where there is no environmental heat buildup except inside the fixture.


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

99Eternal said:


> You are right, I don't know. That's why I am here. asking if the proposed idea is feasible. Thanks again for nothing, useless twat.


Dear diary,
I made a new friend today. His name is 99eternal and I really think he likez me. 

Are you even an apprentice?


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## 99Eternal (Jun 15, 2014)

five.five-six said:


> They are trying to save money on cooling, service size, conductor size etc. It's the kind of thing people think up when they have smoked too much pot.


What ARE we thinking trying to save money on recurring bills and startup costs. Really we should all be spending recklessly.


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## dspiffy (Nov 25, 2013)

FrunkSlammer said:


> Aren't you the guy who buys LED's directly from China with no UL marks or any certification and puts them into churches?
> 
> At least this guy's doing legal work. :whistling2:


If you think my CE, EMC, FCC, RoHS certified bulbs are any more illegal than the non UL-listed bulbs sold in US stores, I encourage you to report me. I'd love to see how that would play out.


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## FrunkSlammer (Aug 31, 2013)

99Eternal said:


> What ARE we thinking trying to save money on recurring bills and startup costs. Really we should all be spending recklessly.


You're talking to 'Muricans.. remember that.

Post in the Canadian section if you want real discussion and good answers. :thumbsup:


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## FrunkSlammer (Aug 31, 2013)

dspiffy said:


> If you think my CE, EMC, FCC, RoHS certified bulbs are any more illegal than the non UL-listed bulbs sold in US stores, I encourage you to report me. I'd love to see how that would play out.


I don't actually care what you do, but I'll read about it one day when it burns down and hurts people.

CE,EMC,FCC,RoHS... :laughing:

"certified" 

:laughing:


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## dspiffy (Nov 25, 2013)

99Eternal said:


> It's not that simple the amount of heat is not the same. Reconsider that. More heat is created running 32,000 watts at once vs splitting into 16,000watts in 2 12 hour periods. That is because there is space in the building, half of it in fact, helping moderate the temperature. The A/C drops the temperature of the "off" room quickly. The heat with 32,000 watts at once would build up so much faster, and potentially a larger BTU ac unit may be required to keep temperatures under control. Remember this is not a commercial building, these 1000w lights are only a few feet apart covering roughly 5x5 we aren't talking about a few high bays a mile apart where there is no environmental heat buildup except inside the fixture.


Not a commercial building? You said it was a warehouse.

Nevertheless, wiring it so the two rooms are on opposite each other is cheap and easy. Wiring so they share ballasts is less so.


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## 99Eternal (Jun 15, 2014)

ponyboy said:


> Dear diary,
> I made a new friend today. His name is 99eternal and I really think he likez me.
> 
> Are you even an apprentice?


I should ask you that question, for you have not made a single technical statement in this thread


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## 99Eternal (Jun 15, 2014)

dspiffy said:


> Not a commercial building? You said it was a warehouse.
> 
> Nevertheless, wiring it so the two rooms are on opposite each other is cheap and easy. Wiring so they share ballasts is less so.


You are killing me here. It's a commercial building. Has to be under MMPR regulations, no more private dwellings allowed.
What I am saying, if you would not be so close minded with all due respect, is that its not your *average* commercial building, because of the light spacing and the size of lamp. Common, you know better than that! The heat doesn't dissipate like it will with the light spacing in your average building.


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

Clown shoes. This thread is


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## FrunkSlammer (Aug 31, 2013)

Thinking outside the box.. I like it! Even if it won't work, at least the guy is using his brain to try and solve a puzzle. 

Gotta be better than being a maintenance boy replacing stuff already pondered by an electrician. :whistling2:


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

FrunkSlammer said:


> Thinking outside the box.. I like it! Even if it won't work, at least the guy is using his brain to try and solve a puzzle. Gotta be better than being a maintenance boy replacing stuff already pondered by an electrician. :whistling2:


Sticks and stones may break my bones....
But your words will hurt forever


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## FrunkSlammer (Aug 31, 2013)

Sorry bro, I didn't even want to say it.. but I couldn't resist the temptation. I'm going to go repent now, it's not nice to kick a person when they're down!


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## 99Eternal (Jun 15, 2014)

ponyboy said:


> Sticks and stones may break my bones....
> But your words will hurt forever


It will be okay, best buds for life.


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## 99Eternal (Jun 15, 2014)

FrunkSlammer said:


> Thinking outside the box.. I like it! Even if it won't work, at least the guy is using his brain to try and solve a puzzle.
> 
> Gotta be better than being a maintenance boy replacing stuff already pondered by an electrician. :whistling2:


Thank you and thanks everyone for your input it does seem as though the costs will end up being comparable either way so I will take your advice and recommend that he just adds extra cct's and a loadcenter w/ additional 16 receptacles for 16 more ballasts. We'll see what top dog says but he will probably agree, as he likely will want to keep it simple anyway.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

FrunkSlammer said:


> Aren't you the guy who buys LED's directly from China with no UL marks or any certification and puts them into churches?
> 
> At least this guy's doing legal work. :whistling2:


OOOOOOHHHHHHH! That's gonna hurt come winter...


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

99Eternal said:


> Thank you and thanks everyone for your input it does seem as though the costs will end up being comparable either way so I will take your advice and recommend that he just adds extra cct's and a loadcenter w/ additional 16 receptacles for 16 more ballasts. We'll see what top dog says but he will probably agree, as he likely will want to keep it simple anyway.


If the groups of lights will be rendered non-coincidental loads via contactors, you won't need more circuits. The same circuits feeding Contactor #1 can feed Contactor #2. 

What kind of load is each light and at what voltage?


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

dspiffy said:


> I cant fathom how this will accomplish any of that. Maybe I need to try pot.


If you can't figure that out, you have already done enough drugs. 


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## Helmut (May 7, 2014)

Tell the guy growing the pot to look into UV adjustable LED's and controls.


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## 99Eternal (Jun 15, 2014)

IslandGuy said:


> If the groups of lights will be rendered non-coincidental loads via contactors, you won't need more circuits. The same circuits feeding Contactor #1 can feed Contactor #2.
> 
> What kind of load is each light and at what voltage?


They are all magnetic 1000watt High Pressure Sodium ballasts, 240v. They pull roughly 4.5 amps. The problem seems as some people pointed out, the relays which would render the loads non coincidental would have to be rated for the multiple thousand volts on the outputs of the ballasts. 

So, as far as not having to run additional ccts are you talking about ballast sharing or to run 32 ballasts total instead of sharing 16? That confused me.


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## 99Eternal (Jun 15, 2014)

IslandGuy said:


> If the groups of lights will be rendered non-coincidental loads via contactors, you won't need more circuits. The same circuits feeding Contactor #1 can feed Contactor #2.
> 
> What kind of load is each light and at what voltage?


Ooh...wait are you saying add 16 additional receptacles, run the 32 ballasts total, and just put the receptacle banks themselves on two separate contactors so that they cannot run simultaneously? 

I think I'm on the same page now.


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

99Eternal said:


> They are all magnetic 1000watt High Pressure Sodium ballasts, 240v. They pull roughly 4.5 amps. The problee.


What about the metal halides? I thought you need HPS for veg and how halide for flowering, or the other way around?


Either way, if you screw that up what you will get will be low yield gank weed

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## 99Eternal (Jun 15, 2014)

five.five-six said:


> What about the metal halides? I thought you need HPS for veg and how halide for flowering, or the other way around?
> 
> 
> Either way, if you screw that up what you will get will be low yield gank weed
> ...


If you had to choose between the two, the blue spectrum from metal halide, better yet a 6500k T5HO is beneficial in vegetative stage over the orange/yellow spectrum of HPS. In flower stage, the opposite holds true, they prefer more yellow/orange spectrum.
The veg room is already setup. Since it runs 18 hours on and 6 hours off, the flip isn't an option as it is with the 12/12 schedule used for flowering stage.

Optimally though, you'd do a mix of spectrums in both stages. a mix of spectrums as produced by the sun is what these plants have grown off for millions of years, by giving them only part of that they can't possibly perform as well.


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## 99Eternal (Jun 15, 2014)

IslandGuy said:


> If the groups of lights will be rendered non-coincidental loads via contactors, you won't need more circuits. The same circuits feeding Contactor #1 can feed Contactor #2.
> 
> What kind of load is each light and at what voltage?


So if I understand correctly, what you suggest is running just one cct rated for the load of 16 ballasts.
Then use two, 2 pole lighting contactors each rated for the load of 16 ballasts, each controlling a bank of 16 240v receptacles?


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## 99Eternal (Jun 15, 2014)

Came across these for anyone who may be curious. Apparently UL and CSA. Siemens contactors.
http://www.powerboxinc.com/flipbox.html

Edit: suppose a link would help.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

99Eternal said:


> They are all magnetic 1000watt High Pressure Sodium ballasts, 240v. They pull roughly 4.5 amps. The problem seems as some people pointed out, the relays which would render the loads non coincidental would have to be rated for the multiple thousand volts on the outputs of the ballasts.


 No no no, you use 2 separate line voltage contactors. If you're running 20a 240v circuits you can put 4 fixtures on one 20a circuit. You need to switch both poles so you'd need 2 8-pole ASCO switches. A decent supply house will probably just stock 12-pole asco switches.

You're switching line voltage here, not the ballast outputs.

Each asco controls all 4 240v circuits for it's room. 

One single pole, double throw timer controls the ascos.



> So, as far as not having to run additional ccts are you talking about ballast sharing or to run 32 ballasts total instead of sharing 16? That confused me.


 Because each group cannot be turned on at the same time, the same 4 circuits for room 1 also power room 2.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

99Eternal said:


> Ooh...wait are you saying add 16 additional receptacles, run the 32 ballasts total, and just put the receptacle banks themselves on two separate contactors so that they cannot run simultaneously?
> 
> I think I'm on the same page now.


 Exactly.


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## 99Eternal (Jun 15, 2014)

IslandGuy said:


> No no no, you use 2 separate line voltage contactors. If you're running 20a 240v circuits you can put 4 fixtures on one 20a circuit. You need to switch both poles so you'd need 2 8-pole ASCO switches. A decent supply house will probably just stock 12-pole asco switches.
> 
> You're switching line voltage here, not the ballast outputs.
> 
> ...



That makes sense, thank you!:thumbup: Imagine that's what we'll end up doing. 

Worked at a supplier for 2 years so my old co-workers there can order me in 8 pole contactors just have to wait. Employee pricing can be nice on these sorts of items too. 

Thanks again for your help clarifying everything.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

I always love me a good DIY thread..


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## Norcal (Mar 22, 2007)

There is a maximum distance between the ballast & the lamp + as mentioned above the relay would need to be rated for the 4? KV igniter. If a relay was avail for that purpose I'd be almost willing to bet the cost would be higher then breaking through the cobwebs on the owner wallet & buy enough ballasts for all the lamps.


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## EB Electric (Feb 8, 2013)

99Eternal said:


> Greetings!
> 
> Well, I've agreed to help a friend take on a project for an MMPR warehouse, but *I may be in over my head* as far as the design of the lighting control
> 
> Any advice whether I am on the right track here would be greatly appreciated. :thumbup:


Hello, 
I would like to weigh in... Yes, you are in over your head. :laughing: 

You said it's a warehouse, then it's not a commercial space, then you say it is again. What is it? (EDIT: Don't answer that I don't care). 

If the 'individual' hiring you or your buddy cannot afford to pay for 16 more ballasts how in the h*ll is he going to afford to pay you once you've completed the work?  paying for 16 ballasts now or 16 more in a few months down the road is the same cost, it saves no money. 16+16 still equals 32 whether it is May June July or August. 

This 'individual' does not understand that inexperienced help is the most expensive kind. Reading your posts it is pretty clear there is 1 of 2 things going on here. A) you are the 'individual' you claim to be hired by, not a real electrician. OR B) You must be getting paid in the kind of green the bank doesn't accept. 

Do me a favor and quit before you get somebody hurt and there is another safety protocol I have to follow everyday because of people like you


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

EB Electric said:


> Hello,
> I would like to weigh in... Yes, you are in over your head. :laughing:
> 
> You said it's a warehouse, then it's not a commercial space, then you say it is again. What is it? (EDIT: Don't answer that I don't care).
> ...


This may give some insight as to whom the customer is...


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