# Cutting in round old work boxes..



## hayan453

How do you guys do it? i use a drywall saw myself.. trace and cut.. you guys have any tips? just wondering...


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## 480sparky

Hole saw.


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## hayan453

yeah but then you gotta knotch it right? to get that tight fit.. what size you use?


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## walkerj

Holesaw
3 5/8" for 3 1/2" box
4 1/8 for 4" box


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## 480sparky

hayan453 said:


> yeah but then you gotta knotch it right? to get that tight fit.. what size you use?


No. I just get round cut-ins.


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## Mr. Sparkle

walkerj said:


> Holesaw
> 3 5/8" for 3 1/2" box
> 4 1/8 for 4" box


Ditto. 

Actually installed a few 4" ones today.


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## MF Dagger

Those 4 1/8 hole saws are a very rare commodity it seems at the local supply house. 4's a plenty but that 1/8 inch extra is tough.


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## hayan453

I use these boxes.. dont know if your talking about the same..

http://www.hardwarestore.com/media/product/102849_front500.jpg

i'll have to experiment with hole saws.. thanks for the tips guys


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## electricalperson

MF Dagger said:


> Those 4 1/8 hole saws are a very rare commodity it seems at the local supply house. 4's a plenty but that 1/8 inch extra is tough.


i use a 4 1/8th hole haw for cutting in dryer and bath vents. fits perfectly

i use a keyhole saw for anything else in sheetrock or plaster. just becareful with plaster and lathe with a keyhole saw


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## BIGRED

I use two hole saws on plaster, carbide grit on plaster then change to carbide tipped for lathe.


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## MF Dagger

I used to keep two keyhole blades in my pouch. One for the sheetrock and one for the lathe after I knocked the plaster out with my skinny screwdriver. More for rectangular boxes though. I use hole saws for round holes most of the time. And you have to be careful with the hole saws on plaster/lath too. You catch the wood wrong and you're not gonna be a happy camper when you end up with half the ceiling falling down around you. Yet another advantage to running the hole saw backwards going through the plaster and then forward for the wood.


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## 480sparky

MF Dagger said:


> Those 4 1/8 hole saws are a very rare commodity it seems at the local supply house. 4's a plenty but that 1/8 inch extra is tough.


If they're worth their salt, they can order a 4-1/8".


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## MF Dagger

If I was worth my salt I could remember to have them order one any of the half dozen times I've reminded myself to have them order one.


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## 480sparky

Remember what?


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## MF Dagger

I can't remember anymore but they have doughnuts


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## electricalperson

dont use a holesaw on a plaster ceiling. you will ruin that holesaw in seconds flat


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## 480sparky

electricalperson said:


> dont use a holesaw on a plaster ceiling. you will ruin that holesaw in seconds flat


Use carbide grit.


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## leland

So.. You mark the hole... probe it and determine there is no joist.

Then fire off that new fangled double dippedy doha and........
Smack dab in the middle of the hole is an old 18th century 4X4,3" above the false ceiling.!!!!!!!!

I hate that!!!!


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## brian john

I do know the worst my hands were shredded was cutting in about 20, 3-1/2 inch boxes and wiring them in plaster lathe with screen lathe.


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## leland

brian john said:


> I do know the worst my hands were shredded was cutting in about 20, 3-1/2 inch boxes and wiring them in plaster lathe with screen lathe.



OHHHH I feel your pain!! Wire lath Bites!!!
But... Is just a tad more friendly than the old wood and horse hair.
(you must concede)


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## hayan453

when you guys say "lathe" are you referring to the mesh screen above the plaster? sorry i gotta get used to your lingo  we have different names for things here..


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## B4T

hayan453 said:


> when you guys say "lathe" are you referring to the mesh screen above the plaster? sorry i gotta get used to your lingo  we have different names for things here..


Lathe is the wood strips that they now make lobster pots out of... good to re-cycle :thumbup:


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## gilbequick

hayan453 said:


> I use these boxes.. dont know if your talking about the same..
> 
> http://www.hardwarestore.com/media/product/102849_front500.jpg
> 
> i'll have to experiment with hole saws.. thanks for the tips guys



Well there's your problem. Quit using those Home Depot / Lowes boxes and get some real cut in boxes that were designed for ELECTRICIANS who actually do the work not Harry Homeowner who happens to appreciate the neat-o shade of blue the box in his wall is above his bathroom mirror. 

Use the Arlington fiber round cut-in boxes and all you need is a 3 5/8 holesaw (found anywhere) and you're good to go.


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## Shado

gilbequick said:


> Well there's your problem. Quit using those Home Depot / Lowes boxes and get some real cut in boxes that were designed for ELECTRICIANS who actually do the work not Harry Homeowner who happens to appreciate the neat-o shade of blue the box in his wall is above his bathroom mirror.
> 
> Use the Arlington fiber round cut-in boxes and all you need is a 3 5/8 holesaw (found anywhere) and you're good to go.


Interesting comment considering those boxes are sold at national major electrical supply houses and other electrical supply houses some of which do not sell to Joe public....only electrical contractors.


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## raider1

Another thing to keep in mind is that the carlon blue round old work boxes are not designed and listed to support a ceiling mounted luminaire.

Chris


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## KayJay

I can’t stand those Carlon round old work boxes either. I always have to notch for those stupid wing screw posts, which really stinks when the wall surface is wood or plaster.
For resi, I prefer the 18 cu.in. 4” round, #C1-18 Slater boxes. A 3-3/4” hole saw is a perfect fit for it. 
The Slater box is actually rated for 20lb fixture support, so I really like to use these for wall mount fixtures if the canopy will cover them.
The old standard 14 cu.in. 3-1/2” round T&B phenolic boxes are still great for lightweight low profile applications having only a few wires. A 3-5/8” hole saw allows the for the C-clamp and ears to set in perfectly.


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## JohnJ0906

raider1 said:


> Another thing to keep in mind is that the carlon blue round old work boxes are not designed and listed to support a ceiling mounted luminaire.
> 
> Chris


I'm not sure drywall itself is permitted to support fixtures on the ceilings, no matter the brand of old work box.


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## raider1

JohnJ0906 said:


> I'm not sure drywall itself is permitted to support fixtures on the ceilings, no matter the brand of old work box.


Agreed.

Chris


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## crazyboy

Keyhole saw, I actually can't remember the last time that I've used a round old work box.


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## electricalperson

hayan453 said:


> when you guys say "lathe" are you referring to the mesh screen above the plaster? sorry i gotta get used to your lingo  we have different names for things here..


 when i say lathe i talk about the wood slats behind the plaster in old houses. its easy to work with when you learn how to cut them


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## gilbequick

Shado said:


> Interesting comment considering those boxes are sold at national major electrical supply houses and other electrical supply houses some of which do not sell to Joe public....only electrical contractors.


I'm glad it's not like that around here.


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## brian john

Shado said:


> Interesting comment considering those boxes are sold at national major electrical supply houses and other electrical supply houses some of which do not sell to Joe public....only electrical contractors.


 
Any supply house I have been will sell to anyone with cash. Grainger's makes it a bit difficult, but that will change.


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## gilbequick

brian john said:


> Any supply house I have been will sell to anyone with cash. Grainger's makes it a bit difficult, but that will change.


Nah, even at Grainger if you don't have an account they'll just pull up someone else's and you buy it on theirs. Or, anyone can sign up for an account online.


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## brian john

gilbequick said:


> Nah, even at Grainger if you don't have an account they'll just pull up someone else's and you buy it on theirs. Or, anyone can sign up for an account online.


 
Here you need at a minimum a business card, which anyone can make with a PC and a printer in 20 seconds.


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## leland

Last summer at a HVAC/Refer supply house,the guy did not want to sell me a plastic condenser base.
Showed him my lic and he said,"Ok,guess you can't hurt yourself with this".

I don't have a problem with supply houses limited to a lic tradesman.


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## MDShunk

The Raco Saddlebox, the Westinghouse Fanmaster Jr box, the SmartBox ceiling box, and the Arlington MB-8 are four compliant options to install a ceiling box in old work to support a fixture or a fan. 

Three of those boxes take the 4-1/8" hole saw (The MB-8 needs no hole for the box). To the user who thought that was a rare holesaw... you need to get out more. Heck, even Lowe's sells that size in three packs for about 35 dollars in their house brand Kobalt. It's a very common electrician and plumber size for a holesaw.


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## electricalperson

MDShunk said:


> The Raco Saddlebox, the Westinghouse Fanmaster Jr box, the SmartBox ceiling box, and the Arlington MB-8 are four compliant options to install a ceiling box in old work to support a fixture or a fan.
> 
> Three of those boxes take the 4-1/8" hole saw (The MB-8 needs no hole for the box). To the user who thought that was a rare holesaw... you need to get out more. Heck, even Lowe's sells that size in three packs for about 35 dollars in their house brand Kobalt. It's a very common electrician and plumber size for a holesaw.


 i like those saddle boxes


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## brian john

I do not care who they sell to, but I do feel we should get priority in line. One supply house here had a HO number and contractor numbers system taking contractors first.


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## MDShunk

electricalperson said:


> i like those saddle boxes


Theyre good for modern framing, but for old framing and TJI's, you need something like the Fanmaster or the MB-8.


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## hayan453

Yeah notching for those tabs are a pain in the a$$.. i'll definitely look at arlington and those other brands.. if you dont have to notch for those it would be a great time saver.. :thumbup: im starting to get exposed to a little more resi remodel stuff so thanks for the heads up!


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## Shado

gilbequick said:


> I'm glad it's not like that around here.


Really!!! Are you saying that none of the supply houses in your area sell Carlon products? 

I worked for 3 years in and around Charleston, SC and that was pretty much all the bosses bought. 2 supply house there only sold to contractors....they didn't want or need the liability they said.


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## BIGRED

I use the Carlon 4" round old works all of the time and never have a problem them. I dont hang fans on them or heavy fixtures, just cheap fixtures, small pendants, and smokes.


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## electricalperson

MDShunk said:


> Theyre good for modern framing, but for old framing and TJI's, you need something like the Fanmaster or the MB-8.


 in old houses the only thing that usually works is a regular fanbox mounted to the joist or a pancake fanbox. a lot of times they stuck a piece of wood to put the knob and tube through so i just mount a fan box to that and replace the knob and tube with new. westinghouse makes a fan box kit that comes with a deeper fanbox just incase theres more than 1 layer of ceiling


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## brian john

electricalperson said:


> replace the knob and tube with new.


You relace the K&N with new K&N? or NM?


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## Janutolo

hayan453 said:


> How do you guys do it? i use a drywall saw myself.. trace and cut.. you guys have any tips? just wondering...





hayan453 said:


> How do you guys do it? i use a drywall saw myself.. trace and cut.. you guys have any tips? just wondering...


If you’re serious about your work use a hole saw but bare minimum always have a key hole saw at the ready. However, this only works if it’s not metal or wood.


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## Janutolo

electricalperson said:


> in old houses the only thing that usually works is a regular fanbox mounted to the joist or a pancake fanbox. a lot of times they stuck a piece of wood to put the knob and tube through so i just mount a fan box to that and replace the knob and tube with new. westinghouse makes a fan box kit that comes with a deeper fanbox just incase theres more than 1 layer of ceiling


Using a pancake for a fan is a nightmare especially if you have to install a remote. I’m not sure pancakes are rated for that much weight?


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## Kevin

Janutolo said:


> I’m not sure pancakes are rated for that much weight?


Doesn't have to be rated for the weight if it's supported independently from the box... Not to mention you can get boxes that are fan rated...

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