# Don't talk to OSHA



## macmikeman

F--- Osha and the horse they rode in on. 












I wear surf trunks and leather slaps .........


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## HARRY304E

eutecticalloy said:


> So the other day I was headed to a job and I get a call from the lead on site. "we had to get off the roof, osha will be here soon." I say "what is the pitch of the roof and how far is the steepest eve to the ground." Well of course its a 37° roof over twenty feet to the ground.
> 
> Well another crew was using most of our fall arrest equipment. So my helper and I go to lunch. Towards the end of lunch my pm calls me. "stay on the ground and try not to chat it up with osha. In fact, just avoid them."
> 
> Isn't it illegal to tell an employee to not talk with osha? not to mention they were obviously aware that osha regulations were being violated.


Look at this way they are there to find violations and nail your boss with fines and put your boss out of business they do not care that you will lose your job in the process.

So give that some thought they are just looking to fix somebody that had the guts and will to start a Business..It makes good press.


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## jhall.sparky

eutecticalloy said:


> So the other day I was headed to a job and I get a call from the lead on site. "we had to get off the roof, osha will be here soon." I say "what is the pitch of the roof and how far is the steepest eve to the ground." Well of course its a 37° roof over twenty feet to the ground.
> 
> Well another crew was using most of our fall arrest equipment. So my helper and I go to lunch. Towards the end of lunch my pm calls me. "stay on the ground and try not to chat it up with osha. In fact, just avoid them."
> 
> Isn't it illegal to tell an employee to not talk with osha? not to mention they were obviously aware that osha regulations were being violated.


 
not trying to be smart but if i tell my guys NOT to TALK theyed better have a damn good reason for doing otherwise.

i cant have but one ( read mine, mine,mine) iron in the fire.
if they got an issue bring it to me FIRST. 

its MY company , they are MY employees, and they play by MY rules.

i will never ask someone to do something i wouldnt do or to put them selves at risk . 

if some one thinks he can buck the "system" and do things his way well.....
thats fine and dandy he will be signing his OWN checks and i cant tell him
what to do ..................... i think you get my drift,

also i dont like damage control............ zip it or take a hike .


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## jhall.sparky

macmikeman said:


> F--- Osha and the horse they rode in on.
> 
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> 
> I wear surf trunks and leather slaps .........


i believe in steel toes and flash equip, and saftey glasses ..

and ill tear apart the "chairiot" taking them out of this world.


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## eutecticalloy

HARRY304E said:


> Look at this way they are there ti find violations and nail your boss with fines and put your boss out of business they do not care that you will lose your job in the process.
> 
> So give that some thought they are just looking to fix somebody that had the guts and will to start a Business..It makes good press.


Okay besides political non sense. Telling am employee to ignore laws is in itself illegal.

I'm not a fan of osha either but they were visiting this site because the roofing crew has had many injuries. Falling is the number one way people die on the job. And as a lead I feel responsible to ensure my crews safety.


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## randas

eutecticalloy said:


> Okay besides political non sense. Telling am employee to ignore laws is in itself illegal.
> 
> I'm not a fan of osha either but they were visiting this site because the roofing crew has had many injuries. Falling is the number one way people die on the job. And as a lead I feel responsible to ensure my crews safety.


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## B4T

eutecticalloy said:


> Okay besides political non sense. Telling am employee to ignore laws is in itself illegal.
> 
> I'm not a fan of osha either but they were visiting this site because the roofing crew has had many injuries. Falling is the number one way people die on the job. And as a lead I feel responsible to ensure my crews safety.


Let the people in charge make the decisions.. you start making waves and next thing you're a marked man..

Being 100% right is noble.. but it does nothing to put food on the table..


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## HARRY304E

eutecticalloy said:


> Okay besides political non sense. Telling am employee to ignore laws is in itself illegal.
> 
> I'm not a fan of osha either but they were visiting this site because the roofing crew has had many injuries. Falling is the number one way people die on the job. And as a lead I feel responsible to ensure my crews safety.


Being the lead man that is true you are responsible for your men and none of them should be falling to there deaths on your watch but you don't need OSHA to tell you that make sure they are safe there is nothing political about that.

It is common sense.:thumbsup:

Don't get me wrong OSHA has some great safety rules that we should all follow but when they show up their intent is to find a way to put someone out of business and take away all of his wealth.


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## 636Sparky

If a cop follows a driver long enough, he'll find a reason for a ticket. 
In this case, OSHA is the cop, and workers are the driver; but their fines are a lot more devestating. 
If OSHA shows up for a reason that has nothing to do with me, I'm out of there, along with my guys. Not worth the risk if it has nothing to do with me. Just my opinion.


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## BBQ

HARRY304E said:


> but when they show up their intent is to find a way to put someone out of business and take away all of his wealth.


You are an idiot.


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## eutecticalloy

B4T said:


> Let the people in charge make the decisions.. you start making waves and next thing you're a marked man..
> 
> Being 100% right is noble.. but it does nothing to put food on the table..


Im not making waves, just asking you guys for your opinion. I haven't and won't say anything to my operations manager, but I thought this was the place to vent?

I do realize that starting a business is made tougher by a large business loving organization like osha. But my problem is more with the management acknowledging the fact that they ignored safety and then said don't say anything about it.

They have five accidents in one year and complain to us because work mans comp is going to drop them. Well maybe you should train some of these new guys on safety.


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## eutecticalloy

jhall.sparky said:


> not trying to be smart but if i tell my guys NOT to TALK theyed better have a damn good reason for doing otherwise.
> 
> i cant have but one ( read mine, mine,mine) iron in the fire.
> if they got an issue bring it to me FIRST.
> 
> its MY company , they are MY employees, and they play by MY rules.
> 
> i will never ask someone to do something i wouldnt do or to put them selves at risk .
> 
> if some one thinks he can buck the "system" and do things his way well.....
> thats fine and dandy he will be signing his OWN checks and i cant tell him
> what to do ..................... i think you get my drift,
> 
> also i dont like damage control............ zip it or take a hike .


Thats commendable that you dont put your guys at risk. The thing is if osha asks you a question and you dont answer they get curious. If you lie, and some one from your company gets hurt, you can be held criminally responsible. If I said yeah w always use safety glasses and then two people get metal shavings in the eyes, the original liar can be called as a witness and be exposed. I remember something like that in my osha training.


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## jhall.sparky

eutecticalloy said:


> So the other day I was headed to a job and I get a call from the lead on site. "we had to get off the roof, osha will be here soon." I say "what is the pitch of the roof and how far is the steepest eve to the ground." Well of course its a 37° roof over twenty feet to the ground.
> 
> Well another crew was using most of our fall arrest equipment. So my helper and I go to lunch. Towards the end of lunch my pm calls me. "stay on the ground and try not to chat it up with osha. In fact, just avoid them."
> 
> Isn't it illegal to tell an employee to not talk with osha? not to mention they were obviously aware that osha regulations were being violated.


beating a dead horse?


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## eutecticalloy

jhall.sparky said:


> beating a dead horse?


What? That was the opening.


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## B4T

eutecticalloy said:


> Im not making waves, just asking you guys for your opinion. I haven't and won't say anything to my operations manager, but I thought this was the place to vent?
> 
> I do realize that starting a business is made tougher by a large business loving organization like osha. But my problem is more with the management acknowledging the fact that they ignored safety and then said don't say anything about it.
> 
> They have five accidents in one year and complain to us because work mans comp is going to drop them. Well maybe you should train some of these new guys on safety.


Yes.. this is definitely the place you want to vent.. then you go back to work with a clear head and all is good.. :thumbsup:


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## eutecticalloy

B4T said:


> Yes.. this is definitely the place you want to vent.. then you go back to work with a clear head and all is good.. :thumbsup:


Yeah with all that is discussed here I figure anything is game.


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## Rockyd

jhall.sparky said:


> not trying to be smart but if i tell my guys NOT to TALK theyed better have a damn good reason for doing otherwise.


Perhaps you're a small contractor, and your thinking goes that way. Big jobs are a different story.

Me? You rent my time, the way you act, will make me your best friend, or worst enemy - your choice when it comes to dealing with OSHA.

I've had to talk to OSHA before as part of OSHA walk thru on the job site that cornered various individuals. They were just curious as to what the over all view was. I happened to know the inspector that "cornered" me. We talked about how the fishing was and when the salmon would be in. Asked me if I thought the job site was reasonable, (personally I hated the safety overkill, and culture of fear that was prevalent on the job in fear of breaking some stupid rule that didn't matter anyway - like wearing a seatbelt at all times on a pad that you couldn't drive over 5 MPH on) told him that it was a good job. 



> i cant have but one ( read mine, mine,mine) iron in the fire.
> if they got an issue bring it to me FIRST.


 Trust me, if I were your employee and had a problem, I'd have your cell number, and you'd hear it from me first, especially if I'm in charge of a project you bid, and needed to know something "outside the ordinary" . 



> its MY company , they are MY employees, and they play by MY rules.


whatever the law, and the contract requires. I'm here to make us both money, I respect that, but that goes both ways.



> i will never ask someone to do something i wouldnt do or to put them selves at risk .


Sometimes it's about trust, we may not like having to except that someone under our direction is doing things that we are not qualified to do, but we can't do everything, yet legally you are still responsible for that individual. Stress management sometimes is far bigger than a stress cone. 

Catch more flys with honey, than with vinegar. Avoid OSHA as much as possible, but prep your employees in how to deal with them, they may get "ambushed" and need to be smart before hand. Don't be the "fall guy" contractor for OSHA! Panels covered, and GFCI, hard hats and safety glasses, is 99% of what they see, as long as your cool there, most everything else tends to fall on the general (eyewash stations, first aid kits, extinguishers, etc).


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## eutecticalloy

In the end it's about mutual respect. You respect my safety and treat me like an intelligent person and I will help ensure this company will make money. Treat me like an a hole because you don't care about anything but making money and I won't skip breaks, take my time on the roads etc. I am all for small business just not **** owners.


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## jhall.sparky

Rockyd said:


> Perhaps you're a small contractor, and your thinking goes that way. Big jobs are a different story.
> 
> Me? You rent my time, the way you act, will make me your best friend, or worst enemy - your choice when it comes to dealing with OSHA.
> 
> I've had to talk to OSHA before as part of OSHA walk thru on the job site that cornered various individuals. They were just curious as to what the over all view was. I happened to know the inspector that "cornered" me. We talked about how the fishing was and when the salmon would be in. Asked me if I thought the job site was reasonable, (personally I hated the safety overkill, and culture of fear that was prevalent on the job in fear of breaking some stupid rule that didn't matter anyway - like wearing a seatbelt at all times on a pad that you couldn't drive over 5 MPH on) told him that it was a good job.
> 
> Trust me, if I were your employee and had a problem, I'd have your cell number, and you'd hear it from me first, especially if I'm in charge of a project you bid, and needed to know something "outside the ordinary" .
> 
> 
> 
> whatever the law, and the contract requires. I'm here to make us both money, I respect that, but that goes both ways.
> 
> 
> 
> Sometimes it's about trust, we may not like having to except that someone under our direction is doing things that we are not qualified to do, but we can't do everything, yet legally you are still responsible for that individual. Stress management sometimes is far bigger than a stress cone.
> 
> Catch more flys with honey, than with vinegar. Avoid OSHA as much as possible, but prep your employees in how to deal with them, they may get "ambushed" and need to be smart before hand. Don't be the "fall guy" contractor for OSHA! Panels covered, and GFCI, hard hats and safety glasses, is 99% of what they see, as long as your cool there, most everything else tends to fall on the general (eyewash stations, first aid kits, extinguishers, etc).


not that im here to argue i just see people that make themselves the "say whatever guy" and it usually turns nasty in a hurry. the OP said in his first posting he received a phone call from his MANAGEMENT telling him to lay low ............... he should take them on their words thats all im saying....... he can tell OSHA or any one else hes going to let MANAGEMENT handle it what ever the case maybe................big outfit or small its good to have a point man so........................... what are we debating? oh yea hes here to vent... im just offering my out look......

the big picture is obviously SOMEONE had already adressed the issue and told him to lay low the rest is irrelavent.


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## eutecticalloy

jhall.sparky said:


> not that im here to argue i just see people that make themselves the "say whatever guy" and it usually turns nasty in a hurry. the OP said in his first posting he received a phone call from his MANAGEMENT telling him to lay low ............... he should take them on their words thats all im saying....... he can tell OSHA or any one else hes going to let MANAGEMENT handle it what ever the case maybe................big outfit or small its good to have a point man so........................... what are we debating? oh yea hes here to vent... im just offering my out look......
> 
> the big picture is obviously SOMEONE had already adressed the issue and told him to lay low the rest is irrelavent.


I did lay low...I follow orders. but I'm not mindless.

If my employers say climb this 100ft ladder no cage no harness, i'm going to say no way. I respect the people in charge. You yourself said you wouldn;t put your guys at risk but other companies do. Is any one life worth the success of a company or even the awkardness of an employee telling his manager that what they are asking is un-safe. NO

Are you employees giving you a problem, dont get all bent out of shape, no one is threatening your lively hood.


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## jhall.sparky

eutecticalloy said:


> I did lay low...I follow orders. but I'm not mindless.
> 
> If my employers say climb this 100ft ladder no cage no harness, i'm going to say no way. I respect the people in charge. You yourself said you wouldn;t put your guys at risk but other companies do. Is any one life worth the success of a company or even the awkardness of an employee telling his manager that what they are asking is un-safe. NO
> 
> Are you employees giving you a problem, dont get all bent out of shape, no one is threatening your lively hood.


your right , could not have said it better myself...........


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## Shockdoc

Maybe it's the Native American blood within in me but I refuse to talk to any sh1tstain american authority.


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## HARRY304E

BBQ said:


> You are an idiot.


thank you!


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## Wirenuting

Me and a dozen coworkers were sent in for a OSHA interview about were we work. 
I answered all their questions honestly and we looked pretty good. 
When it was over I asked 1 question.

Is it OK to have a little leakage on a 1/2 face respirator?
The OSHA inspectors answered" NO"
I said that was funny, for years they told me it's OK
I was off the asbestos respirator program
With-in the hour. 

Now I want to ask OSHA about an 8cal superman suit for pulling MCC buckets. 

OSHA is not there for the benefit of a company, they are there for the safety of the employees.


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## BBQ

Wirenuting said:


> OSHA is not there for the benefit of a company, they are there for the safety of the employees.


I agree 100% with that. :thumbsup:


But I will add that they do not have the goal of putting a company out of business. Of course that can happen but it is not the goal.

You can actually ask OSHA to come out to the work place to go over issues without getting fined. They are trying to work with companies.

Of course if a company continuously ignores OSHA they have no problem making an example of them.


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## Jmohl

Wirenuting said:


> Now I want to ask OSHA about an 8cal superman suit for pulling MCC buckets.
> 
> OSHA is not there for the benefit of a company, they are there for the safety of the employees.


That still amazes me.... Even if you go by the tables which are a bare minimum while awaiting a complete arc flash survey, level 2 protection does not meet for racking in MCC buckets. What really has me buffaloed is that this is occuring on a Navy base and from my experience, we were always a lot more anal retentive about safety than our civ. counterparts.


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## Wirenuting

Jmohl said:


> That still amazes me.... Even if you go by the tables which are a bare minimum while awaiting a complete arc flash survey, level 2 protection does not meet for racking in MCC buckets. What really has me buffaloed is that this is occuring on a Navy base and from my experience, we were always a lot more anal retentive about safety than our civ. counterparts.


Don't mistake what I'm saying. 
The sailors are always safe and are never asked to preform anything that would cause them to be exposed to hazards.
<I'm not talking about operational hazards> 
.
I am the counter-part.


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## brian john

OSHA was started for a reason and serves an important purpose. Unfortunately their workers are government employees therefore they leave common sense and their IQ's at the door.

I have dealt with several OSHA inspectors over the years and many are no different than electrical inspectors they, know a lot based on their most recent seminar. Others are excellent are are striving to do their best based on what is expected of them, others are plain dolts. 

Personally I feel, never lie to them, avoid them if possible and BE SAFE, after all in the end it is about your safety.

Same way I feel about police.


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## MarkyMark

I've had guys before tell OSHA that - no, they had not received any training on GFCI testing, even though they had participated in a safety meeting less than a month before, specifically concerning GFCI testing, and signed an attendance sheet for that meeting.

That is why people tell their guys not to talk to OSHA.


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## dawgs

We generally pull off the job site, not that were trying to hide anything, but guys tend to get frazzled and nervous when asked questions. they could have all the training in the world and cant answer a question correctly.

OSHA is like the inspector, no matter how good you do they can always find something wrong if they want to.


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## piperunner

eutecticalloy said:


> So the other day I was headed to a job and I get a call from the lead on site. "we had to get off the roof, osha will be here soon." I say "what is the pitch of the roof and how far is the steepest eve to the ground." Well of course its a 37° roof over twenty feet to the ground.
> 
> Well another crew was using most of our fall arrest equipment. So my helper and I go to lunch. Towards the end of lunch my pm calls me. "stay on the ground and try not to chat it up with osha. In fact, just avoid them."
> 
> Isn't it illegal to tell an employee to not talk with osha? not to mention they were obviously aware that osha regulations were being violated.


Well heres some info for ya Osha standards for the construction industry google it and read it because from what i see in these post no one has a clue to a Osha inspection or has not been on a job site that has had a real inspection.

I know you hate it when i say stuff like this but listen read 1903.8 representatives of employers & employees .

When Osha comes to a job site they are not aloud to just walk on the job site on a real project they ask first.

If it happens they can talk with the assigned safety director or person who is assigned for that company and no one else .

If your company tells you you cant talk its not a legal matter but if the Osha man ask you a question you are to give him a answer if you feel the need but they can not force you to talk .

They give you so many hours to bring you saftey person to the site before a inspection so its plenty of time to get you act together .

Ive been on at least 8 full blown inspections over the years and never was spoken to once if fact no workers were asked anything on the jobs were we even had a few fatal accidents on two projects .

Only the folks involved in direct or part of the accident were questioned and iam talking serious **** .

And the jobs were companys left and took off during this vist which only last 3 days tops .

They wait for up to 7 days for you and you crew to return if you piss them off ive seen that so all the other companys are getting hit while your on vacation it doesnt work .

Every company must show there paper work programs all documents that must be fill out and on the site they check it all.

There not going until its shown .

And your contractor is not going to let you go because he shares your fine if you screw up .


I think we have never failed a inspection once our company but have been on jobs were the fines were not pretty for some others .

.


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## gold

Not being a smartass or anything here but Is Osha even allowed to interview employees at will during an on-site inspection?


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## piperunner

gold said:


> Not being a smartass or anything here but Is Osha even allowed to interview employees at will during an on-site inspection?



I know they can but rarely see it maybe just a hardhat check or a comment nothing to freak out about .

There in there big group and its a cluster **** walk through !


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## Wirenuting

They are at our facility for training all the time. They were told they can not talk to us. They search for violations and do practice write ups. 
But they are trainees.


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## BBQ

http://www.osha.gov/Publications/osha2098.pdf


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## piperunner

Well if your a contractor today and you dont have a safety plan or rules outline on paper your not going to pass .

If you havent been to a 10 hour or 30 hour class your asking for trouble .

In Orlando they just opened up a new office and i hear thats going to happen around the US in most citys that are doing lots of work how do ya think they can pay off the dept we have today . Its easy money theres always one construction job thats screwed because they think its not going to happen .

But if you ever get a fine it can put a small company out of bussiness.

If you bid large jobs and you get a fine its on you record and once that happens no contractors want you on there next.

Even the owners check you files on safety your not getting the job sorry .


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## MDShunk

My experiences with OSHA have all been positive. Their goal is compliance, and not fines. The two people I dealt with almost bent over backwards to help me. There were a couple fines in the thousands of dollars, but were negotiated down to a couple hundred bucks. They mainly want to point out outages and see that you put measures in place so that they don't happen again. The older I get, the more safety is important to me.


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## piperunner

MDShunk said:


> My experiences with OSHA have all been positive. Their goal is compliance, and not fines. The two people I dealt with almost bent over backwards to help me. There were a couple fines in the thousands of dollars, but were negotiated down to a couple hundred bucks. They mainly want to point out outages and see that you put measures in place so that they don't happen again. The older I get, the more safety is important to me.


I guess the jobs we do are kinda large so they can find anything if they want. Life safety stuff is what they really go for and ive seen only major fines if it was a loss of life which ive been on two in my time in the trade .

I have seen the fines go away also but they say today its starting to change and everyone is getting real safe no one wants to take the chance to fined out and thats no pun.

Who knows maybe its just our upper office telling us to watch our backs more and making up stuff so there putting the fear in us.


Yes MD i agree most of the time we pass id say over many years ive only seen two fines large ones and a few small ones but they go away after they sit down and have a meeting lunch ya know .

But with a record of it if you get the same violation on another project look out its three times what the first would have been .

Ya know there coming they tell you in writing days or weeks before a inspection if you fail you got to be a idiot .

Just get it together dont be standing on top of a ladder when there looking at you with there video cam with your safety director standing next to them in the group not good .


When i took the ten hour class they had a web site for listed fines with the contractors names in fact any electrical contractor in the USA ill fined that and post the web page .



MD heres the page put your companys name in and click it !http://www.osha.gov/pls/imis/establishment.html


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## jhall.sparky

piperunner said:


> I guess the jobs we do are kinda large so they can find anything if they want. Life safety stuff is what they really go for and ive seen only major fines if it was a loss of life which ive been on two in my time in the trade .
> 
> I have seen the fines go away also but they say today its starting to change and everyone is getting real safe no one wants to take the chance to fined out and thats no pun.
> 
> Who knows maybe its just our upper office telling us to watch our backs more and making up stuff so there putting the fear in us.
> 
> 
> Yes MD i agree most of the time we pass id say over many years ive only seen two fines large ones and a few small ones but they go away after they sit down and have a meeting lunch ya know .
> 
> But with a record of it if you get the same violation on another project look out its three times what the first would have been .
> 
> Ya know there coming they tell you in writing days or weeks before a inspection if you fail you got to be a idiot .
> 
> Just get it together dont be standing on top of a ladder when there looking at you with there video cam with your safety director standing next to them in the group not good .
> 
> 
> When i took the ten hour class they had a web site for listed fines with the contractors names in fact any electrical contractor in the USA ill fined that and post the web page .
> 
> 
> 
> MD heres the page put your companys name in and click it !http://www.osha.gov/pls/imis/establishment.html


mine returned ''0'' result/s. :thumbup:


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## nitro71

Bottom line the OSHA requirements are easy. Wear harnesses. Put up handrails. Tie off ladders. Don't step on the upper rail of a ladder. This is basic safety stuff. Fact is the employers will abuse their employees and require unsafe work practices. I've never seen OSHA or WISHA(WA OSHA) on a job. Employees get killed because of lax safety or no safety focus. A harness cost what? $200.00? And employers don't want to supply them?


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## jhall.sparky

nitro71 said:


> Bottom line the OSHA requirements are easy. Wear harnesses. Put up handrails. Tie off ladders. Don't step on the upper rail of a ladder. This is basic safety stuff. Fact is the employers will abuse their employees and require unsafe work practices. I've never seen OSHA or WISHA(WA OSHA) on a job. Employees get killed because of lax safety or no safety focus. A harness cost what? $200.00? And employers don't want to supply them?


i used to have a sign crew that i provided with around 3,000 bucks worth of safety equipment, they tore the stuff up and lost it in 2-years i got so pissed i started making them sign for it and they began to "need" less ......... not sure i get what you are poking at but i can provide my guys with everything imaginable 
doesn't me i wont get a call saying "paul fell of the 8-ft ladder , why bc he was too lazy to get the twelve out of the combine " simple as that........... some people in my experience don't care enough to make it worth all the effort, not saying I'm cheep or nothing but you can lead a horse to water............... :wallbash:


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## Shockdoc

OSHA only exist to keep W/C profits high......Just like the way automobile insurers pump money into law enforcement to enforce seat belt laws. It's the American way for big business to protect its investments by having government do its dirty work at the expense of the little guy.


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## bobelectric

Never met an OSHA inspector I didn't Like,same as an Electrical inspector. If the mine operators at the Upper Big Branch would have followed the rules, 29 miners would be still going to work today and coming home to dinner with their family.


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## Jmohl

excerpt from: http://www.osha.gov/Publications/visit/what-to-expect.html

_Informal Interviews
_During the site tour, team members will interview randomly selected employees at their work stations. These interviews should include supervisors, maintenance personnel, safety committee members, contract and temporary workers in all areas of the site. Typical questions will address work procedures, emergency procedures, and personal protective equipment. Interviews will be conducted in a manner that avoids disruption of normal operations and that encourages candid conversation.

Contract employees will be included in the interviews to ensure that equally effective protection is provided to all employees involved in the site's operation.

_Formal Interviews_
At some time other than during the site tour, the team leader will randomly select persons to be interviewed from an employee roster, with the goal of interviewing a cross section of employees, including managers and supervisors. These interviews take place in a private setting and usually last about one-half hour each.

pretty much sums it up right there.... If OSHA is on your site doing a VPP, you can expect that someone will get asked something by a team member. If your guys all know their stuff, no prob. If they give the Deer in the headlights stare when asked about programs, expect some feedback....


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## renosteinke

Talking to the government ....

Let's look at the topic in the abstract.

There's a 5th Ammendment for a reason. You cannot be compelled to say anything. The inspector may huff and puff, but you have every right to decline to make a statement. 

If you say anything, it better be true and complete. Martha Stewart is but one person who got to wear stripes for lying ... and she was cleared of any of the wrongdoing she was suspected of! Her experience, alone, is enough reason to end any conversation that looks like it might be official. 

Inspectors are not angels, and this idea of turning us into a nation of government functionaries and informers is anethema to me.

Your employer is at risk of committing a crime if he attempts to influence, in any manner, what you say to an investigator, or whether you speak at all. This last part is touchy, as the matter of enforcement is most unbalanced.

Simply put, governement agencies have a terrible record when it comes to protecting you from retaliation- and they really don't give a whit for you. 

On the other side of the ledger, the employer is under no obligation to keep you employed. It's simple coincidence that he no longer needs those who he imagines 'squealed.' And, if you think there's no 'employer grapevine,' you're really innocent.


----------



## BBQ

renosteinke said:


> Talking to the government ....
> 
> Let's look at the topic in the abstract.
> 
> There's a 5th Ammendment for a reason. You cannot be compelled to say anything. The inspector may huff and puff, but you have every right to decline to make a statement.


A bit OT but I think you can be compelled to give a statement about others actions, you just can't be compelled to implicate yourself. It still may make sense to ask for legal advise before taking anyone's word on it.

Of course I am not a lawyer, I just watch a lot of L&O. :jester:


----------



## Wirenuting

An employee is not protected under the 5th amendment. 
That is for protection, in court, against self incrimination. 

Pick another to hide behind please.


----------



## 10492

Osha is as crooked and corrupt as a 3 dollar bill.


----------



## JmanAllen

Well OSHA was at one of our jobs about month and a half ago or so. We had no violations. But the lady told us that they feel they need to be writing more tickets and handing out more fines. That will boost the economy Had out fines and shut down all the little guys

Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


----------



## RIVETER

eutecticalloy said:


> So the other day I was headed to a job and I get a call from the lead on site. "we had to get off the roof, osha will be here soon." I say "what is the pitch of the roof and how far is the steepest eve to the ground." Well of course its a 37° roof over twenty feet to the ground.
> 
> Well another crew was using most of our fall arrest equipment. So my helper and I go to lunch. Towards the end of lunch my pm calls me. "stay on the ground and try not to chat it up with osha. In fact, just avoid them."
> 
> Isn't it illegal to tell an employee to not talk with osha? not to mention they were obviously aware that osha regulations were being violated.


What kind of electrical work could be necessary on a very pitched roof, that would take so much time?


----------



## BBQ

Dnkldorf said:


> Osha is as crooked and corrupt as a 3 dollar bill.


Yeah, lets just say random stuff with nothing to back them up.


----------



## chicken steve

so let's summerize

we've a lead man who works for a company that has a WC history

he's on a job were ,if i've read it right, has had some incidents

he's in charge of workers who apparently may not have appropriate safety fall protective equipment, or training of it's use_ (why else would he be told to get off the roof?)_

then he's told to stfu

can you say rock/hardplace?

~CS~


----------



## Zog

Dnkldorf said:


> Osha is as crooked and corrupt as a 3 dollar bill.


Yeah, stupid OSHA going around trying to create a safe work environment to protect employees. They have some nerve. :whistling2:


----------



## HARRY304E

Zog said:


> Yeah, stupid OSHA going around trying to create a safe work environment to protect employees. They have some nerve. :whistling2:


:laughing:


----------



## Last Leg

jhall.sparky said:


> not trying to be smart but if i tell my guys NOT to TALK theyed better have a damn good reason for doing otherwise.
> 
> i cant have but one ( read mine, mine,mine) iron in the fire.
> if they got an issue bring it to me FIRST.
> 
> its MY company , they are MY employees, and they play by MY rules.
> 
> i will never ask someone to do something i wouldnt do or to put them selves at risk .
> 
> if some one thinks he can buck the "system" and do things his way well.....
> thats fine and dandy he will be signing his OWN checks and i cant tell him
> what to do ..................... i think you get my drift,
> 
> also i dont like damage control............ zip it or take a hike .


 Wow, reading this reminded me of a story on the news last night. 
*Corrupt Mexican Construction Gangs Steal Millions in Texas* 
www.myfoxhouston.com
Wonder why the hispanic workers on the jobsites seem so tight? Seems they are having to pay their 'boss' to get jobs and make weekly payments also. A guy spent thousands of his own money to expose this. The workers do it the 'bosses way' or they don't work. Seems to be rampant.


----------



## Last Leg

I was at the Orange box store a few months back. There was a fixture way at the top of the shelving. I asked this guy if he could get it for me. He rolled his little stair ladder over, climbed up and had to kinda climb on the handrail. It came to me - 'I am from the Occupational Safety and Health Administration' - it only took him a second; he kind of shivered all over. I quickly said 'just kidding' - I realized I could have killed the guy.


----------



## BBQ

Last Leg said:


> It came to me - 'I am from the Occupational Safety and Health Administration'


I used to have a ball cap that I got from a friend in the INS. (Immigration and Naturalization Service) It had the INS official seal on the front.

It used to be fun to wear in restaurant kitchens, you would hear 'Imigra, Imigra' and people heading for the exits. :jester:


----------



## That's It?

BBQ said:


> I used to have a ball cap that I got from a friend in the INS. (Immigration and Naturalization Service) It had the INS official seal on the front.
> 
> It used to be fun to wear in restaurant kitchens, you would hear 'Imigra, Imigra' and people heading for the exits. :jester:


_"estoy llamando a la inmigración_" My favorite phrase to use with the tough guy day laborer


----------



## chicken steve

MDShunk said:


> . The older I get, the more safety is important to me.


there are _old _electricians and _bold_ electricians..........


----------



## 360max

....it totally amazes me how many of you are totally against safety, if you are properly trained, OSHA should not be an issue.


----------



## 360max

jhall.sparky said:


> i used to have a sign crew that i provided with around 3,000 bucks worth of safety equipment, they tore the stuff up and lost it in 2-years i got so pissed i started making them sign for it and they began to "need" less ......... not sure i get what you are poking at but i can provide my guys with everything imaginable
> doesn't me i wont get a call saying "paul fell of the 8-ft ladder , why bc he was too lazy to get the twelve out of the combine " simple as that........... some people in my experience don't care enough to make it worth all the effort,* not saying I'm cheep or nothing but you can lead a horse to water..............*. :wallbash:


.....if you are the owner it will be your money they come after to drink the water out of their gold cup. As an owner, your responsibility does not end at the offering of the safety equipment.


----------



## chicken steve

360max said:


> ....it totally amazes me how many of you are totally against safety, if you are properly trained, OSHA should not be an issue.


 
i don't think it's that _any_ of us all against safety 360

at the end of the day, we'd all like five fingers @ beer:30

it's just that we're not so keen on the safety _business_ and it's many parasites

_~CS~_


----------



## joethemechanic

Once the toothpaste is out of the tube, it's hard to get it back in ------ H.R. Haldeman 

If we use words, there is a very grave danger they will be misinterpreted. --- H.R. Haldeman 


Something to think about before you open your mouth.


----------



## RIVETER

joethemechanic said:


> Once the toothpaste is out of the tube, it's hard to get it back in ------ H.R. Haldeman
> 
> If we use words, there is a very grave danger they will be misinterpreted. --- H.R. Haldeman
> 
> 
> Something to think about before you open your mouth.


"Never admit you knew Nixon", HR Halderman.


----------



## chicken steve

Yet is was tricky ****y who initiated OSHA & the EPA

which, at least by today's standards paints him.........
















































































wait for it


























































































































a LIBERAL!

~CS~


----------



## joethemechanic

An law school professor and former criminal defense attorney tells you why you should never agree to be interviewed by the police.

If we use words, there is a very grave danger they will be misinterpreted. --- H.R. Haldeman

If you don't want to listen to it all, at least listen from 5:20 for a minute or two. It explains what the problem with talking is.


----------



## electricmanscott

I jumped right from the first post to here. Too much too read.

My two cents. You'd have to be a real idiot to tell you employees not to talk to osha. First if you follow the rules, it won't matter. Second you are just giving them ammo to pork you should they become disgruntled.


----------



## chicken steve

electricmanscott said:


> I jumped right from the first post to here. Too much too read.
> 
> My two cents. You'd have to be a real idiot to tell you employees not to talk to osha. First if you follow the rules, it won't matter. Second you are just giving them ammo to pork you should they become disgruntled.


and in a perfect world, i'd _agree_ Scott

~CS~


----------



## BBQ




----------



## joethemechanic

BBQ said:


>




Didn't his brother rat him out? Damn how long ago has that been?


----------



## chicken steve

So how many of you can say you play by the rules?

I mean ALL the rules?

ALL the time?

~CS~


----------



## BBQ

chicken steve said:


> So how many of you can say you play by the rules?
> 
> I mean ALL the rules?
> 
> ALL the time?
> 
> ~CS~


Stupid question, no one can answer yes to it.


----------



## electricmanscott

BBQ said:


> Stupid question, no one can answer yes to it.


If they do they are liars.


----------



## chicken steve

and you'd both be right

so, what we have is a doctrine that 


*A) is improbable to meet all the specifics of*

*B) is not universally enforced *


Now how's that workin' out for all you folks contracting out there?

~CS~


----------



## chicken steve

as an aside here, while i await your responses

we had 5 occupational related deaths in our town within a 2 year period

all unrelated to each other

i had the misfortune to be on the front lines of some of it, as well as being privy to pre-osha as well as post-osha incident action

i'm not impressed , to say the least

~CS~


----------



## BBQ

chicken steve said:


> and you'd both be right
> 
> so, what we have is a doctrine that
> 
> 
> A) is improbable to meet all the specifics of
> 
> B) is not universally enforced
> 
> 
> Now how's that workin' out for all you folks contracting out there?
> 
> ~CS~


It is working very well for the company I work for, thanks for asking. 

We get jobs that other contractors can't get because we do try to follow the rules. Our MOD rates are low enabling us to bid on jobs that contractors with higher rates cannot.


----------



## BBQ

chicken steve said:


> as an aside here, while i await your responses
> 
> we had 5 occupational related deaths in our town within a 2 year period
> 
> all unrelated to each other
> 
> i had the misfortune to be on the front lines of some of it, as well as being privy to pre-osha as well as post-osha incident action
> 
> i'm not impressed , to say the least
> 
> ~CS~


And I am not impressed (to say the least) about your oddball way of communicating.

Let me see if I can see what you are pointing out.

1) There were 5 deaths

2) You were somehow involved before and after

3) You saw OSHAs response before and after

4) You were not impressed.

So .............. given that limited info how the hell could any one 'respond to your awaiting' mind?


----------



## chicken steve

BBQ said:


> It is working very well for the company I work for, thanks for asking.
> 
> We get jobs that other contractors can't get because we do try to follow the rules. Our MOD rates are low enabling us to bid on jobs that contractors with higher rates cannot.


yet you admit>






> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chicken steve*
> _So how many of you can say you play by the rules?_
> 
> _I mean ALL the rules?_
> 
> _ALL the time?_
> 
> _~CS~_
> 
> Stupid question, no one can answer yes to it.


----------



## chicken steve

BBQ said:


> So .............. given that limited info how the hell could any one 'respond to your awaiting' mind?


my experience(s) may seem _odd_ to someone who lacks them BBQ

but they stand , and do so as first hand _testimony_ to the system

moving on, do you have _issue_ with this>>>>>>



*A) is improbable to meet all the specifics of*

*B) is not universally enforced *


~CS~


----------



## slickvic277

I talk to OSHA when ever there on the job. If the EC Im working for has violations, I point them out.
Why? Because I don't care. Don't put me in harms way. I'll let it be known that I was the one who told them too. If they punish me for it, I call my lawyer.


----------



## chicken steve

on that note>

*A) is improbable to meet all the specifics of

B) is not universally enforced *

*C) Places the end user (worker) in a position where s/he is either in jeopardy via dangerous workpractice , or pointing them out*


----------



## BBQ

chicken steve said:


> moving on, do you have issue with this>>>>>>
> 
> 
> 
> A) is improbable to meet all the specifics of
> 
> B) is not universally enforced


An issue with a fact?

No, no more than I have an issue with any rules humans deal with.


I don't find 'A' to really be true. Lack of compliance often comes down to lack of commitment not an actual insurmountable problem.

'B' is a situation that does suck but is universal with almost all rules of any kind.


----------



## BBQ

chicken steve said:


> on that note>
> 
> A) is improbable to meet all the specifics of
> 
> B) is not universally enforced
> 
> C) Places the end user (worker) in a position where s/he is either in jeopardy via dangerous workpractice , or pointing them out


You sure seem to grip on some of the problems, so what are your solutions?


----------



## chicken steve

BBQ said:


> You sure seem to grip on some of the problems, so what are your solutions?


one needs to clarify the problem_ before_ considering solutions BBQ


for instance, your at odds with A


can you tell us the ratio of _electrical workers_ to _100% osha qualified electrical workers _are?

~CS~


----------



## MarkyMark

BBQ said:


> And I am not impressed (to say the least) about your *oddball way of communicating*.
> 
> Let me see if I can see what you are pointing out.
> 
> 1) There were 5 deaths
> 
> 2) You were somehow involved before and after
> 
> 3) You saw OSHAs response before and after
> 
> 4) You were not impressed.
> 
> So .............. given that limited info how the hell could any one 'respond to your awaiting' mind?


Sure, Chicken Steve has an oddball way of communicating, but he makes up for it by using red letters and large fonts


----------



## chicken steve

MarkyMark said:


> Sure, Chicken Steve has an oddball way of communicating, but he makes up for it by using red letters and large fonts


what i find _odd_, after having seen the life drain from our so called brother blues eyes, are systemic failures so many like to ignore, instead choosing to demonize the deceased

just one of the many human fobiles that makes me _embarassed_ to be a member 

you can all go back to posting in your best anecdotals with your OSHA halos on now

~CS~


----------



## sbrn33

slickvic277 said:


> i talk to osha when ever there on the job. If the ec im working for has violations, i point them out.
> Why? Because i don't care. Don't put me in harms way. I'll let it be known that i was the one who told them too. If they punish me for it, i call my lawyer.


stfu


----------



## Shockdoc

Why would anyone want to talk to any government agency is beyond me, they are only there to collect money. Talking to them is brownosing, might as well pucker that nose right up their bare azz as their about to take a sh#t.


----------



## chicken steve

Shockdoc said:


> Why would anyone want to talk to any government agency is beyond me, they are only there to collect money. Talking to them is brownosing, might as well pucker that nose right up their bare azz as their about to take a sh#t.


 
at the risk of blatant niavety, because they allegedly _work for us_ Doc....

~CS~


----------



## BBQ

chicken steve said:


> can you tell us the ratio of _electrical workers_ to _100% osha qualified electrical workers _are?



Nope.

I suspect that as of now the percentage is low.

I also know it was lower when I started in the trade and fully expect it to be higher by the time I leave the trade. 

It is clear your only joy is bitching about stuff but I have never seen you offer any solutions.


----------



## chicken steve

BBQ said:


> Nope.
> 
> I suspect that as of now the percentage is low.
> 
> I also know it was lower when I started in the trade and fully expect it to be higher by the time I leave the trade.
> 
> It is clear your only joy is bitching about stuff but I have never seen you offer any solutions.


i find no joy in the pain of _others_ BBQ

of course, i should not discount this forums muchenhausen gestlat reveling in nom de plums of BBQ and Chicken Steve dueling osha fricassee

but as i said, acknowledging the problem is condusive to solution

and i haven't forwarded that yet, have i?

~CS~


----------



## Shockdoc

They drive around here on Long island looking for Stucco projects involving scaffolding, forget the big contractors like those building on the rte 110 corridor involving cranes and I beam shells. Just another form of revenuing. If safety was priority one, agents would work with contractors to aid in safety other than hand out $10k+ fines.


----------



## chicken steve

*yuppy....*


*A) is improbable to meet all the specifics of

B) is not universally enforced 

C) Places the end user (worker) in a position where s/he is either in jeopardy via dangerous workpractice , or pointing them out* 

*D) Is improbable for the the majority of end users to be fully educated to *

*~CS~*


----------



## slickvic277

Shockdoc said:


> They drive around here on Long island looking for Stucco projects involving scaffolding, forget the big contractors like those building on the rte 110 corridor involving cranes and I beam shells. Just another form of revenuing. If safety was priority one, agents would work with contractors to aid in safety other than hand out $10k+ fines.


Your full of it. OSHA is one of the most severely understaffed agencies out there. Also, they rarely come out to a job unless, A) There was already an accident, OR B) They received NUMEROUS calls. AND somtimes C) They visit the sites of known, repeat, or recent offenders. And as long as the violation isn't extreme they always give you time to correct the violation.

Stop making things up.


----------



## user4818

slickvic277 said:


> Stop making things up.


Then he would no longer be Shockdoc.


----------



## Cletis

*Osha*

I comply with all OSHA's rules at all times when there is compensation.


----------



## chicken steve

gentlemen:

some sort of statistical benchmark(s) are in order

*According to the figures released for FY 2010, OSHA conducted more than 41,000 inspections in FY 2010 - a 15-year high and a five percent increase over FY 2009. In addition, OSHA issued more than 94,000 citations in FY 2010, a seven percent increase over last year, and the highest number of citations in nearly two decades*

*<<<<<<<<snip>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*


*Employers can expect more of the same in 2011. **As we reported in a previous OSHA Update**, OSHA has recently implemented a "Severe Violator Enforcement Program" (or "SVEP") designed to saddle certain employers with recurring inspections and increased penalties*


of course one needs to juxtapose the big players into the mix, to which _millions_ in fines equates mere chump change>

http://www.businessinsider.com/bp-h...s-has-an-awful-track-record-for-safety-2010-6


feel free to add ~CS~


----------



## BBQ

chicken steve said:


> feel free to add ~CS~


Feel free to add to what?

Add a bunch of random words to a post that has not said anything.


----------



## chicken steve

BBQ said:


> Feel free to add to what?
> 
> Add a bunch of random words to a post that has not said anything.


as the info posted plainly states, osha has bigger teeth than ever before BBQ

this is relevant to the thread

thanks for playing

~CS~


----------



## BBQ

Shockdoc said:


> They drive around here on Long island looking for Stucco projects involving scaffolding,


They do that becuse those types of 'contractors' have high injury rates from falls.



> forget the big contractors like those building on the rte 110 corridor involving cranes and I beam shells.


Oh, so in between the service changes you do you also work the big jobs.:laughing:

I can't speak for jobs in NY but here big jobs have much higher levels of conformance than small ones. The GCs know the rules and expect us subs to follow them.



> Just another form of revenuing.


I bet OSHA costs more than it brings in so that is unlikely




> If safety was priority one, agents would work with contractors to aid in safety other than hand out $10k+ fines.



They do exactly that, they will by request come out and go over a job without handing out fines and aid you in compliance.

Our company safety guy knows all the local OSHA guys, they talk all the time.


----------



## Wirenuting

slickvic277 said:


> Your full of it. OSHA is one of the most severely understaffed agencies out there. Also, they rarely come out to a job unless, A) There was already an accident, OR B) They received NUMEROUS calls. AND somtimes C) They visit the sites of known, repeat, or recent offenders. And as long as the violation isn't extreme they always give you time to correct the violation.
> 
> Stop making things up.


It's my understanding that at today's staffing levels OSHA can be expected to visit every company once every 80 years.
Now if you figure in their multiple visits to investigate accidents and their more frequent visits to the more dangerous industries, you can expect a visit once every 200 years.


----------



## BBQ

slickvic277 said:


> Also, they rarely come out to a job unless, A) There was already an accident, OR B) They received NUMEROUS calls.


Actually by law they are required to show up at the job within 24 hours when just one actual complaint is made.

This basically means the reporting party has to give their name and info, this of course makes many say the heck with it.


----------



## Shockdoc

slickvic277 said:


> Your full of it. OSHA is one of the most severely understaffed agencies out there. Also, they rarely come out to a job unless, A) There was already an accident, OR B) They received NUMEROUS calls. AND somtimes C) They visit the sites of known, repeat, or recent offenders. And as long as the violation isn't extreme they always give you time to correct the violation.
> 
> Stop making things up.


 I'm not you brownoser, I know two stucco companies personally that got hit only because they where working along main hiways. Wipe that sh#t off your nose fart smeller.


----------



## chicken steve

*A) is improbable to meet all the specifics of

B) is not universally enforced 

C) Places the end user (worker) in a position where s/he is either in jeopardy via dangerous workpractice , or pointing them out* 

*D) Is improbable for the the majority of end users to be fully educated to *

*E) rarely makes appearances , other than incidents or complains *


*~CS~*


----------



## BBQ

chicken steve said:


> A) is improbable to meet all the specifics of


*Which is different from most rules and regulations how?

What is Chicken Steve's fix for this problem? *



> B) is not universally enforced


*Like most rules and regulations

What is Chicken Steve's fix for this problem? *




> C) Places the end user (worker) in a position where s/he is either in jeopardy via dangerous workpractice , or pointing them out


*That can be a problem for sure.

What is Chicken Steve's fix for this problem? *



> D) Is improbable for the the majority of end users to be fully educated to


*That is simply untrue.*



> E) rarely makes appearances , other than incidents or complains


*You mean exactly like every other enforcement agency from the dog catcher to the IRS, to the Cops in your neighborhood.*




> ~CS~


*~BBQ~*


----------



## chicken steve

> *D) Is improbable for the the majority of end users to be fully educated to *
> *
> 
> 
> 
> That is simply untrue
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> .*


Stats?..... Link?..... 

~CS~


----------



## slickvic277

Shockdoc said:


> I'm not you brownoser, I know two stucco companies personally that got hit only because they where working along main hiways. Wipe that sh#t off your nose fart smeller.


No you don't. You don't know jack. That's painfully obvious.


----------



## piperunner

Well iam listening to all the talk about Osha .

Were in Orlando in the last 6 months they have been to just about every site thats under construction in central florida not all but mostly the larger projects . 

They have a new office here in Orlando now so i guess its visting time .

Also i worked in the Jacksonville area we finished the new Duval County Court House before i came home to Orlando i spent 20 months there we had three major accidents on that job and never had a Osha vist once .

And one was a iron worker who was crushed almost lost his life Osha never came out on site .

And if they did we never saw them didnt have any inspections at that job site not one Osha man walked the site. 



But weve had our share in Orlando in the past 6 months .


So they dont come out for every accident but they can come out at anytime if they feel the need or get a call to come out .

This was not the first time this has happen over the years ive been on many jobs they only come out when its a death .

And ive been on three jobs over my time in this trade were there was a death .


----------



## chicken steve

So we have a system raft with systemic flaws then. 

Even if it were dependable , or operated at some level of efficency for the minority it's existence would be legitamized

Yet as we can see by my confrontational list, all we have is anecdotals , very few stats and/or accounability

Sure, we could play the _' but in sh*tholistan'_ canard , but i don't live there, i live here, and as a taxpayer paying for any governmental oversight i think i can demand performance

Now Osha's had *40 *years. They've made quite the safety consititution for us all, if any of you have tried to actually read the federal register i'm rather confident you'll agree they can pump it out. But it's gone to the ninth degree, one can clearly see the _'if all i have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail' _effect of orginizations let off their leash. 

There are many examples of aging ogrinizations modus operandi morphing into such debuacheries, such as the women's movement confronting boy scouts for ex. They simply have no were to grow, and invent them

Osha follows suit , and Congress has had to step in, i.e.-ergonomics , if some of you recall

The 'list' for small biz grows annually for us>
http://www.osha.gov/Publications/smallbusiness/small-business.html#electrical

I'd wager one would need to either invest quite a few hours, as well as a good amount of $$$$ to open their doors in compliance, or perpetually be behind the osha 8 ball to do so.

Further , there seems to be little in the way of incentive, other than the treat of being fined, any by an entity that rarley appears past mortatlity and morbidity to do so 

_One would think the WC people would be auditing as well as making concessions for compliance._

_One would think the many apprenticeship programs would have some osha inclusion_

_One would think state licensing, especially those who tout 'GC' levels would at least consider some manner of certification_

_One would think the many perphrial trade orginizations would be swingin' for the above_

Doesn't appear to me that they've made any monumental gains in the last generation, other than lip service

~CS~


----------



## Zog

BBQ said:


> Actually by law they are required to show up at the job within 24 hours when just one actual complaint is made.
> 
> This basically means the reporting party has to give their name and info, this of course makes many say the heck with it.


There are recordable injuries and reportable injuries, both are required by law to be logged on an OSHA 300/301 form, which is also required to be posted at the workplace. Not recording or reporting injuries has major concenquences. (These laws only apply to companies with 10 or more employees if I recall correctly)

Having this documentation is usually required to file a workers comp or disability claim.


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## BBQ

Zog said:


> There are recordable injuries and reportable injuries, both are required by law to be logged on an OSHA 300/301 form, which is also required to be posted at the workplace.


We display those as required at each job site.


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## BBQ

chicken steve said:


> Stats?..... Link?.....
> 
> ~CS~


You seem to be saying workers cannot be safety trained.



chicken steve said:


> D) Is improbable for the the majority of end users to be fully educated to


I feel that is false, do you have stats that prove workers cannot be trained?


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## chicken steve

BBQ said:


> You seem to be saying workers cannot be safety trained.
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> I feel that is false, do you have stats that prove workers cannot be trained?


 
BBQ, i'll ask again>

what is the # of American workers out there, and what is the # of American workers trained to do their work safely?

has that # gone up, or down (recession considered) ?

and once again, i believe in playin' it safe

i just don't believe my tax $$$'s are being spent efficently to do so

and as a taxpayer, i have the right to be asking

~CS~


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## bobelectric

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 Using up to much internet units.


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## chicken steve

sorry Bob, i just don't feel guilty opposed to posters who say a _whole lot of nothing_ 
~CS~


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## BBQ

chicken steve said:


> BBQ, i'll ask again>
> 
> what is the # of American workers out there, and what is the # of American workers trained to do their work safely?


And I answered that before.



> has that # gone up, or down (recession considered) ?


Since I have been in the trade the only direction that '#' has gone is up. 



> and once again, i believe in playin' it safe
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> i just don't believe my tax $$$'s are being spent efficently to do so


Yet you have not posted a single idea to make things better, all you have done is complain.


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## BBQ

chicken steve said:


> sorry Bob, i just don't feel guilty opposed to posters who say a _whole lot of nothing_
> ~CS~


Many feel that way about each of your undecipherable posts. :laughing:


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## chicken steve

BBQ said:


> And I answered that before.
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> ~CS~
Click to expand...


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## chicken steve

BBQ said:


> Many feel that way about each of your undecipherable posts. :laughing:


internet unit monitors take note....

~CS~


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## renosteinke

On a lighter note ...

I was once on a job where a man was badly cut by a piece of sheet metal. It's rather amazing he made it to the door ... as he left quite a trail of blood along the way. More of a solid line than scattered droplets ....

The next day various inspectors arrived. After viewing the site - where the blood trail was as clear as freeway lane markings - they had a nice, long chat with the super.

After the authorities left, we were all called together for our first, last, and only "safety meeting." His speach was short and to the point"
"First off, don't get cut. If you do get cut, don't bleed on the floor!"

After a stunned silence, someone called out "and if you fall from this unguarded mezzanine, be sure to yell 'I quit" before you hit!" That broke the tension, as we all burst out laughing. After a moment, the super joined in the laughter.

I doubt he ever figured out what was wrong with his 'safety' speach.


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## Hazmat

*Just a thought...*

"_One would think the WC people would be auditing as well as making concessions for compliance."_

I'm new here...not trying to stir any pots, but, in reality, if you simply ask them to do so, MOST W/C carriers will in fact send out a "loss prevention" person to actually help you understand the requirements and what you need to do to comply.

In addition, OSHA (in most areas) will do the same...BUT...while they (Consultation division) are legally prevented from talking about what they find with their co-horts in the enforcement division, if they point stuff out, you MUST fix it. You will be given time to do so, but if you DON'T, that's when stuff gets ugly.

It's tough for smaller outfits, but it can be done. Compliance also costs $$$, but USUALLY less than the result of an injury or fatality.


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## chicken steve

renosteinke said:


> On a lighter note ...
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> I was once on a job where a man was badly cut by a piece of sheet metal. It's rather amazing he made it to the door ... as he left quite a trail of blood along the way. More of a solid line than scattered droplets ....
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> The next day various inspectors arrived. After viewing the site - where the blood trail was as clear as freeway lane markings - they had a nice, long chat with the super.
> 
> After the authorities left, we were all called together for our first, last, and only "safety meeting." His speach was short and to the point"
> "First off, don't get cut. If you do get cut, don't bleed on the floor!"
> 
> After a stunned silence, someone called out "and if you fall from this unguarded mezzanine, be sure to yell 'I quit" before you hit!" That broke the tension, as we all burst out laughing. After a moment, the super joined in the laughter.
> 
> I doubt he ever figured out what was wrong with his 'safety' speach.


well was he hired_ leaking_ Reno?

but on a serious note, we have job meetings, lead certs & kit, arc suits, nfpa70E, lotto, as well as overbrewed coffee and stale donuts available

none of it will ever defeat the ability of an _employer _to wind up an employee into doing something he can claim is stupidity

none of it will ever defeat the ability of _bueauracracy_ to poke holes in it, and/or continue to feather their buearacratic nests either

so we exist bettween a rock / hard place where no player, be it corporate or governmental is_ really_ 100% our advocate

~CS~


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## user8640521

jhall.sparky said:


> not trying to be smart but if i tell my guys NOT to TALK theyed better have a damn good reason for doing otherwise.
> 
> if some one thinks he can buck the "system" and do things his way well.....
> thats fine and dandy he will be signing his OWN checks and i cant tell him
> what to do ..................... i think you get my drift,
> 
> also i dont like damage control............ zip it or take a hike .


well, a professional way to handle it, is one a previous employer did
with all his field personnel.

he had little 1" x 3" stickers printed up, and put inside each company
furnished hard had, giving the name, contact phone and email address
of the company safety officer.

if anyone had any questions about safety, then here's the number to
call.... and all you have to say is that you are not the company safety
officer, and here is his number.....

osha field officers are not sworn peace officers, and have rules behind
them, not the weight of law.... and last i heard, you don't have to talk
to anyone, including a sworn officer, unless you have an attorney present.

that being said, posting on a public forum that you would fire someone
for reporting a safety issue, is wrongful termination, seems a poor thing
to say publicly.... to each his own.

as to the original poster, saying that his employer won't provide safety
equipment, and wants his employees to lie about it...... i don't tell lies
for anybody, particularly me. and if i'm not going to lie on my behalf,
i sure as hell am not going to lie on someone else's behalf.

nor respect anyone who asked me to. i'd be looking around to see
what options i had for flushing the bozo and getting someone with
some form of ethics to work for, or with.


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