# Solve This Service Call : Chapter 2



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

OK, here's another one for ya. Customer has a circuit breaker in his barn (on a farm) that won't reset. Here's the panel:












Other symptoms: Exterior HID doesn't work, and some inside lights won't work either.

So given the situation and known facts, what would your next step be?


(Let's ignore the shopping list of violations for a moment, and concentrate on getting power back on!)

_Please note: I already know what the problem is. It has been located and corrected. The reason all the breakers are closed in the photo is because I HAVE FOUND THE PROBLEM._

_I am not 'fishing' for a solution. This is *simply an exercise* to help those interested in honing their troubleshooting skills._


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

Start at the panel check obvious stuff first. Then,start breaking some of the taps at the lights apart, try to narrow my search.


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

First I would check input on both legs. L1 to N L2 to N, L1 to L2, L1 and L2 to ground. What do I get?
Chuck


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

I would check all the voltages as mentioned above, including N - G, just because. THen id figure out the best place to isolate parts of the ciruit, and break it into parts. I would take a look at the outside HID and see if its in good shape, and probably check that specifically as well.

~Matt


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

Am i missing something?....Why check the voltage?...isn't it a dead short?


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

I bet the farmer swore as soon as you got there that "the breaker must be bad" . :laughing:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

NolaTigaBait said:


> ?...isn't it a dead short?


Not necessarily. I just said it won't reset. But here's another hint: When it's turned on, it buzzes sporadically for 3-4 seconds, then opens.




MDShunk said:


> I bet the farmer swore as soon as you got there that "the breaker must be bad" . :laughing:


Actually, he wasn't even home. He always leaves the barn open, so I just went out first thing this morning before it got hot.


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## crazyboy (Nov 8, 2008)

NolaTigaBait said:


> Am i missing something?....Why check the voltage?...isn't it a dead short?


Could be a faulty breaker. I'd check all the voltages in the panel, and see if the breaker has voltage without the circuit. Then reconnect the circuit split it in the middle somewhere and try to narrow down my search to a smaller area of the circuit.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

NolaTigaBait said:


> Am i missing something?....Why check the voltage?...isn't it a dead short?


I check everything - no matter what the customer tells me. That is a key part of troubleshooting the correct way.

~Matt


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

Check load from bad breaker from known good breaker?


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

swap out breaker that won't reset with one of the known good ones to see if it resets.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

steelersman said:


> swap out breaker that won't reset with one of the known good ones to see if it resets.


You wouldnt just pull the wire from the breaker and see if holds first?

~matt


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

Nope. That would make too much sense and be to easy! I like to do more work than necessary!


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

steelersman said:


> Nope. That would make too much sense and be to easy! I like to do more work than necessary!


Ahh, you must get paid hourly as well:thumbup::laughing:

~matt


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

I would seperate the load at first junction box, see if breaker holds, and see if one of the fixtures has a short.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

NolaTigaBait said:


> Start at the panel check obvious stuff first. Then,start breaking some of the taps at the lights apart, try to narrow my search.





Black4Truck said:


> I would seperate the load at first junction box, see if breaker holds, and see if one of the fixtures has a short.


 
OK, so how do you determine which cable it is?


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

TOOL_5150 said:


> Ahh, you must get paid hourly as well:thumbup::laughing:
> 
> ~matt


Yes for my fulltime job, but not for my side jobs. I prefer to charge per the job at hand. I can make much more that way.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

First thing I do is stick a meter in there and see what voltages I got, just as a first principle. The next thing I do is pull the wire off the breaker and see if it holds. If it does, I put the wire back on and see if I can get an amp reading. 

If it stays on for more than a second or two, it is unlikely to be a dead short. At 3 or 4 seconds, knowing it is a lighting circuit, I'd suspect a bad ballast.

Then, I'd call the plumber and tell him I found out why the drains were clogged.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

480sparky said:


> OK, so how do you determine which cable it is?


Disconnect hot, neutral, and ground and push wire up into pipe


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

Black4Truck said:


> Disconnect hot, neutral, and ground and push wire up into pipe


Nah, too much work. Take your hot stick and find out which one _isn't_ hot:thumbsup:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

InPhase277 said:


> Nah, too much work. Take your hot stick and find out which one _isn't_ hot:thumbsup:


Those hot sticks give false readings sometimes.. pushing on a wire never lies :thumbsup:


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

Black4Truck said:


> Those hot sticks give false readings sometimes.. pushing on a wire never lies :thumbsup:


 True dat, G. But I'd give the hot stick a try first. I'd also try a different breaker just to make sure the original was just weak.

Then, I'd rip the whole mess off the wall, and tell the guy the phase corroborator is out of whack, and the entire thing needs replacing.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Volt pen was my method. All the others showed up as hot. So I determined it was the white cable coming out of the left pipe. It is the upper one that goes to the right. (I used my trusty-dusty OSHA-approved 5-gallon ladder to reach up there)

Following it lead me to this gem:










The feed comes in the left, and there's 4 others feeding out.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Volt pen was my method. All the others showed up as hot. So I determined it was the white cable coming out of the left pipe. It is the upper one that goes to the right. (I used my trusty-dusty OSHA-approved 5-gallon ladder to reach up there)
> 
> Following it lead me to this gem:
> 
> ...


Short wires are a perfect place to use WAGO'S.. I almost forgot, you don't like them :laughing::no:


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

So, this is where the issue was?...Insulation was destroyed and it was barely making contact with the neutral or ground?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

NolaTigaBait said:


> So, this is where the issue was?...Insulation was destroyed and it was barely making contact with the neutral or ground?


No. :no: Keep working at it. :thumbsup:


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

480sparky said:


> No. :no: Keep working at it. :thumbsup:


I would bust that splice apart and see which leg of the circuit has the short.

~Matt


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

TOOL_5150 said:


> I would bust that splice apart and see which leg of the circuit has the short.
> 
> ~Matt


You're on the right track. It's the black cable coming out the top. That goes to the end of the barn to this piece of work:










Directly outside this box is the merc. vapor light that doesn't work, and the cable going down to the left goes to an outside receptacle.

Next move?

)BTW, you're seeing the boxes exactly as I found them..... no covers.)


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## Mr. Sparkle (Jan 27, 2009)

Some know nothing tried to do something and tied an unidentified drop switch back in color for color.


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## crazyboy (Nov 8, 2008)

Is that the neutral from the light tied in with the grounds?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

crazyboy said:


> Is that the neutral from the light tied in with the grounds?


No. Two of the wires from the light are white for some reason (ground and noodle).


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## crazyboy (Nov 8, 2008)

Bare conductor sticking out of the nut on the hots shooting? If not I'd break the splices and confirm that the problem is in the light.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

well I would see if there is anything plugged into the outside recep, then id bust that splice apart as well and see if its the light or the recep.

~Matt


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

crazyboy said:


> Bare conductor sticking out of the nut on the hots shooting? If not I'd break the splices and confirm that the problem is in the light.


That's what I did, but it wasn't the light. It's the other cable going down, which ends up here:


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

Man this place is torn up.

~Matt


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

Tomorrow this place will be a smoldering pile of ashes. The very act of troubleshooting these crap places can be just enough disturbance to break something else down. This is one of those jobs where the documentation is important.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

TOOL_5150 said:


> Man this place is torn up.
> 
> ~Matt


 
Actually, it was never put together correctly to begin with.


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## crazyboy (Nov 8, 2008)

I can't really make out that picture too well on my phone aside from the fact its rusted up. It looks like its feeding something else downstream of it. If that's the case I would check the insulation on the wires in that box and make sure the connections are secure, if that's good id remove the receptacle, splice the wires together, and keep going downstream.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

crazyboy said:


> I can't really make out that picture too well on my phone aside from the fact its rusted up. It looks like its feeding something else downstream of it. If that's the case I would check the insulation on the wires in that box and make sure the connections are secure, if that's good id remove the receptacle, splice the wires together, and keep going downstream.


You probably can't see it, but as soon as I pulled this recep. out, the fault cleared. I looked close at the bare ground and there was an arc mark on it.











So I pulled the one hot wire that was pushed up against it, and found this:











Now, the funny thing is, this evening I called the owner to tell him what I found. He replied, "You know, dad probably put that outlet in some time in the late 70s or early 80s....." If that's true, then it took a quarter of a century for the problem (caused by using a utility knife to strip UF cable) to manifest itself!


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## Mr. Sparkle (Jan 27, 2009)

480sparky said:


> You probably can't see it, but as soon as I pulled this recep. out, the fault cleared. I looked close at the bare ground and there was an arc mark on it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Just make sure you meg the conductors, use silicone, tape your wirenuts, & install a tamper proof receptacle on an arc fault breaker with an in use cover and nothing will ever go wrong, promise.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Mr. Sparkle said:


> Just make sure you meg the conductors, use silicone, tape your wirenuts, & install a tamper proof receptacle on an arc fault breaker with an in use cover and nothing will ever go wrong, promise.


What about a GFI?


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## Mr. Sparkle (Jan 27, 2009)

480sparky said:


> What about a GFI?


DAMMIT, you see I would have been back for a "free" service call........


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Mr. Sparkle said:


> DAMMIT, you see I would have been back for a "free" service call........


 
Make it two.... you'll need a bubble cover as well. :thumbsup:


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

That is a very nice show and something to learn along the way.

Myself I will double check all the outdoor receptales and over the time the gasket get hard and brittle and crack and get rain water get in there and what more with those WP box there were no drain holes there at all if they did have a drain hole there it may really reduce the amout of rust even it will stay dry and clean.


Merci, Marc


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## Shado (Jan 1, 2009)

I love these things 480!!! Keep them coming please..:thumbup:


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## guschash (Jul 8, 2007)

Me too!


gus


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## Jupe Blue (Aug 18, 2008)

How long did it take to identify and fix the problem?


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Jupe Blue said:


> How long did it take to identify and fix the problem?


 
I will make a bet.,

A case of beer .,,

Time to find this gem .,,

1.5 hour 

Merci,Marc


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

1. Generally I start at the source.

2. Try to reset breaker to see how _bad_ the short is. Visually inspect the wires at the panel. If the short is in the panel, you will know it.

3. Find out basically what is on the circuit and look for obvious and/or easy places to disconnect/split the circuit. Turn off switches, unplug everything. Trip test again.

4. Start dividing the circuit using logic and visual clues (new installations, underground romex, rat traps ??)

5. Scratch head a few times and say "WTF? Freaking IDIOTS, and SON of a...."


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

220/221 said:


> .........5. Scratch head a few times and say "WTF? Freaking IDIOTS, and SON of a...."


"........Who in the he11 wires stuff like THIS?!?!?":laughing:


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

220/221 said:


> 5. Scratch head a few times and say "WTF? Freaking IDIOTS, and SON of a...."


 Plus my famous French cussing going on more than I can care to listed in here.

also will utter " C'est incroyable " ( it is incredible ) that useally get someone attetion there.

Merci,Marc


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> Plus my famous French cussing going on more than I can care to listed in here.


:laughing: I am always using my french accent with "Motheir Foakaire"


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## ralpha494 (Oct 29, 2008)

"Meaux de lawn" is French for "Cut the grass" N'est-ce pas?


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

ralpha494 said:


> "Meaux de lawn" is French for "Cut the grass" N'est-ce pas?


 
Non,

C'est " Coupez l'herbe " 

Merci,Marc


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