# Union trunk slammers



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Shockdoc said:


> We have many local 25 and 3 guys using their union card as a "license" to homeowners who don't know any better. I just came back from meeting one of my contractors from a job he cannot close up because the need an underwriters for the new work a trunk slammer did for them. 5 1900 box junctions in a soffit, meanwhile a open attic is a foot away. A 2" mast with the coupling in soffit and no support over coupling at roofline. All 20 amp breakers with type mc, old 14 uf,14 romex . Truly comical workmanship. The homeo2wner who insisted his electrician be used now asked for an underwriters. My answer was re presenting the original bid and I'll deduct about $500 for the hihat housings already installed but will be ripping out everything and starting from scratch wiring wise.:laughing:



Good make sure you charge hime for every extra.:thumbup:


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Union guys get very confused about home wiring.


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

It seems a lot of the union guys in my area become installers in a sense because they never really get the chance to lay out a job and become over reliant on specs to follow. A homeowner hears "I'm union" and automatically assumes they are a "better" electrician when the truth is that (at least here) in the residential market most union electricians don't have the training or experience to consider themselves equal to the there merit shop counter parts specializing in that field. To be fair the reverse would apply to the highly spec'd large commercial projects.

I get calls to fix the union trunk slammers work as often as I do the handyman. The only difference is the union guy is all 12 wire. :laughing: Here a union electrician side-jobbing without a contractors license is just as illegal as a craigslist hack side-jobbing without a contractors license.


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

Shockdoc said:


> We have many local 25 and 3 guys using their union card as a "license" to homeowners who don't know any better. I just came back from meeting one of my contractors from a job he cannot close up because the need an underwriters for the new work a trunk slammer did for them. 5 1900 box junctions in a soffit, meanwhile a open attic is a foot away. A 2" mast with the coupling in soffit and no support over coupling at roofline. All 20 amp breakers with type mc, old 14 uf,14 romex . Truly comical workmanship. The homeo2wner who insisted his electrician be used now asked for an underwriters. My answer was re presenting the original bid and I'll deduct about $500 for the hihat housings already installed but will be ripping out everything and starting from scratch wiring wise.:laughing:


 I can see a homeowner being fooled but one of your contractors? I think the contractor was looking for a cheap job and new exactly what he was getting.


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

Magnettica said:


> Union guys get very confused about home wiring.


 Unless they are union residential guys :whistling2:


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Mr Rewire said:


> I can see a homeowner being fooled but one of your contractors? I think the contractor was looking for a cheap job and new exactly what he was getting.


The contractor wanted me to perform the work, the homeowner insisted his friend be used .


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

Mr Rewire said:


> Unless they are union residential guys :whistling2:


There are no union residential guys here.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

I'm sorry. There is no such thing as a Union Trunk Slammer.


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## Davez (Jun 15, 2011)

Union / nonunion there are hacks at both levels, it's all about if you care enough and know enough to do the job right.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Davez said:


> Union / nonunion there are hacks at both levels, it's all about if you care enough and know enough to do the job right.


That's not the point. He is talking about union guys who typically do commercial/industrial work doing residential work as side jobs, and doing them poorly.

This is a VERY common issue.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Davez said:


> Union / nonunion there are hacks at both levels, it's all about if you care enough and know enough to do the job right.


Not for the union guy. All he cares about is a bloated paycheck, a huge benefits package, and a pension. Of course most of this is funded by you and I the tax payer through jobs they get for the govt for example. Ever wonder why a a 1/4 mile stretch of road costs so much?


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

I knew these two guys who were in the union. They used to give me such a hard time when we would talk since would tell them I have NO use for the union. They would try and run me up and down the flag pole about how great the union was and that I had no base for my opinion since I was never in the union.
Wouldn't you know it they had a (mostly residential) side gig together for when they were laid off, which was usually several months a year. IMO that is the height of hypocrisy.
On top of that neither one was much good at resi work.

Last time I saw one of them he was slamming the union for not having work and for playing games with the work books.


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

Shockdoc said:


> The contractor wanted me to perform the work, the homeowner insisted his friend be used .


 So your contractor knew what he was getting and sat by and is now trying to blame the homeowner? Didn't the contractor explain to the homeowner about inspections?


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

480sparky said:


> I'm sorry. There is no such thing as a Union Trunk Slammer.


 Yea most of them own pickups :laughing:


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Speedy Petey said:


> I knew these two guys who were in the union. They used to give me such a hard time when we would talk since would tell them I have NO use for the union. They would try and run me up and down the flag pole about how great the union was and that I had no base for my opinion since I was never in the union.
> Wouldn't you know it they had a (mostly residential) side gig together for when they were laid off, which was usually several months a year. IMO that is the height of hypocrisy.
> On top of that neither one was much good at resi work.
> 
> Last time I saw one of them he was slamming the union for not having work and for playing games with the work books.


That is rich.


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

Magnettica said:


> Not for the union guy. All he cares about is a bloated paycheck, a huge benefits package, and a pension. Of course most of this is funded by you and I the tax payer through jobs they get for the govt for example. Ever wonder why a a 1/4 mile stretch of road costs so much?


 how dare they get huge paychecks,benefits and a pension they should work for peanuts like the rest of the electricians.:thumbup:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

I really couldn't care less if someone does sidework. However, that being said, union workers have a non-compete clause in their contracts that would prevent them from engaging in any non-union activity, and certainly sidework would fall in that category. Secondly, union guys tend to get laid off a lot more frequently than non-union workers which means they are likely collecting unemployment compensation while doing sidework. That's illegal.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Peter D said:


> I really couldn't care less if someone does sidework. However, that being said, union workers have a non-compete clause in their contracts that would prevent them from engaging in any non-union activity, and certainly sidework would fall in that category. Secondly, union guys tend to get laid off a lot more frequently than non-union workers which means they are likely collecting unemployment compensation while doing sidework. That's illegal.


How do you expect them to make the payments on their $750,000 homes, their two $75,000 SUVs, along with their boat and 4-wheeler payments, cell phone and cable TV bills, as STILL take three 2-week vacations every year? C'mon!


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

480sparky said:


> How do you expect them to make the payments on their $750,000 homes, their two $75,000 SUVs, along with their boat and 4-wheeler payments, cell phone and cable TV bills, as STILL take three 2-week vacations every year? C'mon!



Or buy 50' camera tripod poles. WTF!!!!:laughing:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

I bet all the material these guys use on their side jobs fell off the back of their trucks as they passed their house.. :no:


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

480sparky said:


> How do you expect them to make the payments on their $750,000 homes, their two $75,000 SUVs, along with their boat and 4-wheeler payments, cell phone and cable TV bills, as STILL take three 2-week vacations every year? C'mon!


 And not have to buy cheap beer.:thumbsup:


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

is coming


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

gold said:


> is coming


I don't get it.. :blink::blink:

thread and ????


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

B4T said:


> I don't get it.. :blink::blink:
> 
> thread and ????


Really?

I'm the only one that knows what a threadlock is?

:laughing:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

gold said:


> Really?
> 
> I'm the only one that knows what a threadlock is?
> 
> :laughing:


There is no reason to lock the thread.. why I didn't "get it"..

The mods _don't_ need the practice..:laughing:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

B4T said:


> I don't get it.. :blink::blink:
> 
> thread and ????



Locking thread...... on...... to ........... needle.


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## Island Electric (May 9, 2011)

*


Shockdoc said:



We have many local 25 and 3 guys using their union card as a "license" to homeowners who don't know any better. I just came back from meeting one of my contractors from a job he cannot close up because the need an underwriters for the new work a trunk slammer did for them. 5 1900 box junctions in a soffit, meanwhile a open attic is a foot away. A 2" mast with the coupling in soffit and no support over coupling at roofline. All 20 amp breakers with type mc, old 14 uf,14 romex . Truly comical workmanship. The homeo2wner who insisted his electrician be used now asked for an underwriters. My answer was re presenting the original bid and I'll deduct about $500 for the hihat housings already installed but will be ripping out everything and starting from scratch wiring wise.:laughing:

Click to expand...

*I would make sure I charge him for the demo too.

Yup put a commercial electrician in a resi setting and thats what you get. The funny thing is these guys think resi electricians are beneath them:whistling2:


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Mr Rewire said:


> So your contractor knew what he was getting and sat by and is now trying to blame the homeowner? Didn't the contractor explain to the homeowner about inspections?


You are truly dense, my contractor has been a personal friend of mine since 96'. A customer has the right to hire outside of the contractor, I have been used by many loyal customers over their GCs electrician.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Island Electric said:


> I would make sure I charge him for the demo too.
> 
> Yup put a commercial electrician in a resi setting and thats what you get. The funny thing is these guys think resi electricians are beneath them:whistling2:


I told the HO as an option he can file the job himself, and gave him the number of the hardest inspection agency from E Meadow.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

So far I've worked for multiple non-union shops and three union shops. One of the non-union shops did far better work than all the others. On the other hand one of the non-union shops I worked for did far worse work than all the others.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

B4T said:


> I bet all the material these guys use on their side jobs fell off the back of their trucks as they passed their house.. :no:


When you see 12/4 MC going to a single phase resi panel you know it's not good.


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## Xjourneybenderx (May 31, 2011)

Magnettica said:


> Union guys get very confused about home wiring.


I think commercial electricians that have no housing experience have a very hard time with residential wiring. Especially if they are j box happy which most commercial guys I met are very j box happy.. Dont get me wrong I am a commercial journeyman but I started as a residential peace worker and I understand both sides of the trade.. In the end it's all comes down to the same thing electrical is electrical I laugh at them big headed commercial guys that think they are too cool for residential.


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

Shockdoc said:


> You are truly dense, my contractor has been a personal friend of mine since 96'. A customer has the right to hire outside of the contractor, I have been used by many loyal customers over their GCs electrician.


 OK then your contractor friend is a dumbass , why would it be his responsibility to close out the job if the homeowner is acting as the GC.


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## Island Electric (May 9, 2011)

*


Mr Rewire said:



OK then your contractor friend is a dumbass , why would it be his responsibility to close out the job if the homeowner is acting as the GC.

Click to expand...

*
Rewire rewire rewire.... Chill... we can't control what these crazy fin people do. The point of thread is some union guys are not all that and a bag of chips. Besides it's a oxymoron "Union Trunk Slammer" maybe they can start a new classification:whistling2:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

gold said:


> is coming


I got it, but then my wife is a seamstress among various other professions.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Mr Rewire said:


> OK then your contractor friend is a dumbass , why would it be his responsibility to close out the job if the homeowner is acting as the GC.


he's gonna close up his work regardless of the trunk slammer and inspections. The HO will most likely self file since he now feels like a horses ass. Either way, life goes on .


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## Current (Jul 4, 2011)

gold said:


> There are no union residential guys here.


You sure? Most locals in NJ have some type of "B" or small works program.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Current said:


> You sure? Most locals in NJ have some type of "B" or small works program.


Do they actually do residential work? They have a “R” program here but they seldom do residential, mostly light commercial and non-government projects.


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## Current (Jul 4, 2011)

brian john said:


> Do they actually do residential work? They have a “R” program here but they seldom do residential, mostly light commercial and non-government projects.


I didn't think so but I know there is a member here who said that he did when he was part of the program.


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## Island Electric (May 9, 2011)

*


Current said:



You sure? Most locals in NJ have some type of "B" or small works program.

Click to expand...

*Chicago #134 has a "R" Card classification 
Some of those maniacs throw and I mean throw up 1500' of 1/2" emt a day in a wood stud home. "A" guys look down on them.


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*Uts*

Union Truck Slammers are the pussies of the hard working electrician world. 

I've tried 4 out and none of them made it past day one. Ex.

1. They need way too many breaks
2. They won't climb a ladder if it's not OSHA approved
3. They complain a bunch
4. They suck at residential work
5. They expect too much in return for what they put out

That's just my opinion though


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Island Electric said:


> Some of those maniacs throw and I mean throw up 1500' of 1/2" emt a day in a wood stud home. "A" guys look down on them.


I'd like to see what that looks like when it's finished.


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## Island Electric (May 9, 2011)

*


Peter D said:



I'd like to see what that looks like when it's finished. 

Click to expand...

*It looks good:thumbsup:


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

Current said:


> You sure? Most locals in NJ have some type of "B" or small works program.


Well actually. I was part of that b program at one time, which is why I'm no longer part of the union but i suppose thats another thread. They do residential but rarely and not very well. I remember one resi project was a low income housing project. There was one "A" guy Running the job ( I should say running to the liquor store for a bottle of jack and passing out) and a bunch of guys who either had zero experience and held there "I'm black and the local didn't have any others with a b ticket so they found me over in that alley over there and gave me one card" (two of them were literally homeless crackheads) and a few guys like me that organized in. After that job was done I ended up in AC for a few years but I was always just a "B" ticket so I finally said fukc 351 and went a different path.

One guy was such a screw up I would hand him the end of a wire in the morning and say "stand here and hold this" then come back in the afternoon and tell him to let go.

So yea I suppose there are union resi guys.


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## Island Electric (May 9, 2011)

*


gold said:



Well actually. I was part of that b program at one time, which is why I'm no longer part of the union but i suppose thats another thread. They do residential but rarely and not very well. I remember one resi project was a low income housing project. There was one "A" guy Running the job ( I should say running to the liquor store for a bottle of jack and passing out) and a bunch of guys who either had zero experience and held there "I'm black and the local didn't have any others with a b ticket so they found me over in that alley over there and gave me one card" (two of them were literally homeless crackheads) and a few guys like me that organized in. After that job was done I ended up in AC for a few years but I was always just a "B" ticket so I finally said fukc 351 and went a different path.

One guy was such a screw up I would hand him the end of a wire in the morning and say "stand here and hold this" then come back in the afternoon and tell him to let go.

So yea I suppose there are union resi guys.

Click to expand...

*I do not doubt your story but damn that is extreme. 

Over here if that happened your check will come out to the job with in an hour and bye. Heck even if you do work and your just not fast enough your check comes out and bye In #134 it is a contractors local. If you do not produce your gone. If they don't like anything about you... your gone.  em!


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## Xjourneybenderx (May 31, 2011)

Peter D said:


> I'd like to see what that looks like when it's finished.


I'd like to see that happen


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## mrmike (Dec 10, 2010)

Pretty Sad attitudes in this Post- this is whats wrong with America-Finger Pointing !!!! ARGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH !!


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## Rockyd (Apr 22, 2007)

Shockdoc said:


> Blame it on any president, it was the last one that stuck us here. Reality is however find ways to make money without affecting others. Kid I laid off became a scrapper to support himself, there are options.


 
Bush Jr, got us into Iraq...Afghanistan ya, that is where OBL attacked us from. That we let him go when they had him before was beyond me. I'd have filled the caves with gas and torched his butt. Ten years to track down the SOB? would have been sweet if we had done it in less than 2 or 3.

If I had to start a war with anyine else in the region, it would have be iran - they had 52 of our people for 444 days....and look who want to have a nuke....can you say Imanutjob?! He was also one of the leaders in capturing the 52 hostages....


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## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

The guy that roughed that house had no idea of what he was doing. and the same can be said for anyone here that is outside the work that they normaly do. I am sure you would do a job outside of your expertice that you normaly would'nt do, and give it your best shot, as opposed to sitting home. I am not saying he is right to go out contracting but people in glass houses should not throw stones.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Mr Rewire said:


> OK then your contractor friend is a dumbass , why would it be his responsibility to close out the job if the homeowner is acting as the GC.


Didn’t you tell us that the truck slammers are the reason your business failed?


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

Shockdoc said:


> Blame it on any president, it was the last one that stuck us here. Reality is however find ways to make money without affecting others. Kid I laid off became a scrapper to support himself, there are options.


Yeah but what about the union scrappers??


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Frasbee said:


> Yeah but what about the union scrappers??


What does that term mean?


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

I removed the off topic political posts from this thread.

Rockyd, please refrain from making this your personal political soap box.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

mrmike said:


> Pretty Sad attitudes in this Post- this is whats wrong with America-Finger Pointing !!!! ARGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH !!


Finger pointing, What a legitimate contractor complaining about non-licensed men working in his territory is FINGER POINTING. Beats him getting frustrated and GUN POINTING.


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## mdfriday (May 14, 2007)

I think it is interesting. In the union agreement, you cannot work for a non-union contractor, do site work, etc, yet, they do. The union wants "their" money for their funds.

They do not typically go after side workers.

But they will harass legitimate non-union contractors and workers.

I wonder which is most damaging...


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## mdfriday (May 14, 2007)

mrmike said:


> Pretty Sad attitudes in this Post- this is whats wrong with America-Finger Pointing !!!! ARGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH !!


I think we need more people to point fingers. The problem with America today is, there is no right and wrong, just a bunch of grey area.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

mdfriday said:


> ........... The problem with America today is, there is no right and wrong, just a bunch of grey area.


That's not really the problem. The real problem is those who cannot accept the existence of the grey areas and/or refuse to acknowledge it.


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

brian john said:


> Didn’t you tell us that the truck slammers are the reason your business failed?


 My business never failed it just got real close and with no license requirement everyone is a trunk slammer.


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

mdfriday said:


> I think it is interesting. In the union agreement, you cannot work for a non-union contractor, do site work, etc, yet, they do. The union wants "their" money for their funds.
> 
> They do not typically go after side workers.
> 
> ...


 so many misconceptions so little time.


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## mdfriday (May 14, 2007)

Mr Rewire said:


> so many misconceptions so little time.


Nope, all true. I am able to "operate" on both sides of the union/non-union fence.

I see and hear some interesting things, and, I do not lie.


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## sparkymcwiresalot (Jan 29, 2011)

One point about non resi guys doing resi work poorly. They probably do crappy commercial and industrial work too.


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## Xjourneybenderx (May 31, 2011)

sparkymcwiresalot said:


> One point about non resi guys doing resi work poorly. They probably do crappy commercial and industrial work too.



Residential and commercial are based on the same thing electricity. But completely different I'm sorry but residential is just boring..


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Xjourneybenderx said:


> Residential and commercial are based on the same thing electricity. But completely different I'm sorry but residential is just boring..


I think all apprentices would be well served, if they did 12 months in the residential market.

As for being boring, depends on what you are doing , wiring tract homes, custom homes, service, service trouble shooting.

Doing nothing but deck work, or running large pipe could be just as boring. Give a guy a good mix of work and he should not be bored and also makes a better electrician. But I know some guys that are happy doing the same thing day after day.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

brian john said:


> But I know some guys that are happy doing the same thing day after day.


Now THAT is boring!
No thank you. :no:


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Xjourneybenderx said:


> Residential and commercial are based on the same thing electricity. But completely different I'm sorry but residential is just boring..


Sounds to me that you have not been delegated enough responsibility. Responsibility breeds confidence and a good feeling about yourself and your work.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Speedy Petey said:


> Now THAT is boring!
> No thank you. :no:


I agree 100%, but thank goodness someone does it, otherwise we’d be on the switch and plug crew for 6 months. I once got stuck on the S&P crew in a high rise condo for 6 weeks, wanted to blow my brains out after a few days. Best thing that ever happened to me (I THINK) in the trade, I was switched to punch out final crew. There were two of us following all the others. Learned a ton about trouble shooting, and snaking wires.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

brian john said:


> I agree 100%, but thank goodness someone does it, otherwise we’d be on the switch and plug crew for 6 months. I once got stuck on the S&P crew in a high rise condo for 6 weeks, wanted to blow my brains out after a few days. Best thing that ever happened to me (I THINK) in the trade, I was switched to punch out final crew. There were two of us following all the others. Learned a ton about trouble shooting, and snaking wires.


Brian, you must get real. By that I mean that I have been on the worst jobs possible and I never considered "blowing my brains out". You, most probably, didn't either. I am just thinking about the younger people here and don't want them to quit when the going gets rough.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

RIVETER said:


> Brian, you must get real. By that I mean that I have been on the worst jobs possible and I never considered "blowing my brains out". You, most probably, didn't either. I am just thinking about the younger people here and don't want them to quit when the going gets rough.


I got into what I do because of boredom, I found day after day of, replacing ballast and tubes (did that in the first 6 months), switching and plugging and the final straw a month of 4’ strip fixtures end to end in endless rows.

It is part of what we have to do and it is what made me decide I had to find something that was different on a regular basis. 

In testing I have been on big jobs were all we did was test CBs day after day and that gets boring as well.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Bout half the houses I wire day after day after day are sitting right on a Hawaiian Beachfront. I never get tired of that..... The other stuff I do inside schools and labs and apartments is what gets tiring.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

macmikeman said:


> Bout half the houses I wire day after day after day are sitting right on a Hawaiian Beachfront. I never get tired of that..... The other stuff I do inside schools and labs and apartments is what gets tiring.



Actually I never minded doing custom houses as long as it was not done in tract style, rough in for 2 weeks, S&P for 2 weeks. 

I wired homes on weekends for years


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## CraigV (May 12, 2011)

It's no news flash that there are good and bad in every field, union, non, whatever. People trying to earn a living. Nothing wrong with that. Seeing lousy work and then attributing it to whether the worker holds a card or not seems kinda silly to me.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

CraigV said:


> It's no news flash that there are good and bad in every field, union, non, whatever. People trying to earn a living. Nothing wrong with that. Seeing lousy work and then attributing it to whether the worker holds a card or not seems kinda silly to me.



Dammit. There you go..... ruining a perfectly good thread with the truth.


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## CraigV (May 12, 2011)

480sparky said:


> Dammit. There you go..... ruining a perfectly good thread with the truth.


 
Sorry. I'll try to make up for it. Last week I did a service in SEU, and ran a sub feeder across the yard with buried boxes (which I mapped carefully) and finished up with receptacles that were half ground-up and half down...but 100% were in Carlon blue boxes and the wirenuts were both pre-twisted, taped and Scotchkoted.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

CraigV said:


> Sorry. I'll try to make up for it. Last week I did a service in SEU, and ran a sub feeder across the yard with buried boxes (which I mapped carefully) and finished up with receptacles that were half ground-up and half down...but 100% were in Carlon blue boxes and the wirenuts were both pre-twisted, taped and Scotchkoted.



Gawd, I hope you bought all that crap at Home Depot. Otherwise, someone might think you're a perfesshunil.:laughing:


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

mdfriday said:


> Nope, all true. I am able to "operate" on both sides of the union/non-union fence.
> 
> I see and hear some interesting things, and, I do not lie.


 I didn't say you lied but you did get reckless with the truth.


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## NJWVUGrad (May 12, 2011)

This goes both ways - I can't tell you how many commercial tenant fit out/remodels I have been in that were obviously done by a resi guy who had no business doing it.

First sign - NO J-Boxes to be found, everything wired through studs.
Second sign - Switch legs fed at light and and dead ended three ways.

I know not all of those signs are code issues, but its a common means and methods issues. Just like wiring switches through lights and dead ended three ways. Its just not a typical commercial/ industrial practice.


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

NJWVUGrad said:


> This goes both ways - I can't tell you how many commercial tenant fit out/remodels I have been in that were obviously done by a resi guy who had no business doing it.
> 
> First sign - NO J-Boxes to be found, everything wired through studs.
> Second sign - Switch legs fed at light and and dead ended three ways.
> ...


I did a 517 suite last year and the 120 was spec'ed to be installed with no j-boxes. It really wasn't that big of a deal. The reason it was spec'ed that way, is that all the 517 rooms had certain loads and they didn't want anything added to the circuits later. I just left a 3/4" stub for each 3 available circuits at the panel.


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## NJWVUGrad (May 12, 2011)

Well obviously anything Health Care related is its own animal, and of course the Spec supercedes whatever is consider common trade practice, as long as it is code compliant.

I was just talking run of the mill tenant fit out for a land lord, the space was being not being leased "built to suit", it was just generic office space, cubicles etc. Not a J-Box to be found for lighting moves, projectors, tv's etc. All the common items in any commercial office space. 

I can even let the no J-Box thing go if they would have nippled up to a trough from the panel instead of landing every MC home-run into the panel. 


Grrrr...


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Did a service call today in a house rewire by another union trunk slammer. Octopus rough house boxes all through out the attic with jumbo blue wire nuts and bx tails to each outlet . I found a burnt splice in octopus # 3. They need to keep their shenanigans in commercial buildings.


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## Xjourneybenderx (May 31, 2011)

brian john said:


> I think all apprentices would be well served, if they did 12 months in the residential market.
> 
> As for being boring, depends on what you are doing , wiring tract homes, custom homes, service, service trouble shooting.
> 
> Doing nothing but deck work, or running large pipe could be just as boring. Give a guy a good mix of work and he should not be bored and also makes a better electrician. But I know some guys that are happy doing the same thing day after day.


I totally agree !


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## Xjourneybenderx (May 31, 2011)

RIVETER said:


> Sounds to me that you have not been delegated enough responsibility. Responsibility breeds confidence and a good feeling about yourself and your work.


 I did piece work for two years had a better opportunity and took it. I been doing commercial for six. If I could I would choose commercial any day of the week over residential.. Just stating my opinion. Don't get butt hurt .. I take responsibility for all my jobs.


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## pistol pete (Jul 4, 2011)

the showing of the union card like its a license or something is such a common occurrence in ny. Ive had many an argument with people trying to explain the difference .. i think the worst part is how they are undercutting the prices because they are desperate for work ... you wanna play contractor bid the job fairly. dont do work for such a low number that the legit contractor doesn't have a chance.. in all fairness tho some of the best electricians i know have come out of the union world... hope you sent them bill hunt and forewarned him to rip the work to pieces ...


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## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

What about all the non-union guy's doing side work. I worked year’s non-union. I worked for one company that did all industrial work with a crew of about 20. Half of them had fully loaded personal vans or pick-ups with caps for side work. Some licensed some without, one held a business permit. I saw one guy in the supply house upset that they only had aluminum seu in stock. He could not believe all the houses he saw used aluminum seu. The other company I worked for the son had a business on the side. I guess dad was not paying enough? And that is what it is all about more money.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

cabletie said:


> What about all the non-union guy's doing side work. I worked year’s non-union. .


 
No one side has a lock on anything, quality, hacks, slobs, jerky foremen and side jobbers.

Only issue *I THINK is it * might be easier for an open shop man to start a company. Some locals make it difficult for one man union shops.


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## pistol pete (Jul 4, 2011)

Im sure every single one on this fours has done some form of side work that's not exactly a bad thing .... people that work 2 job s aren't looked down upon in other industry's are they? I take issue when they do the work for nothing and well accomplish nothing cuz they don't know what there doing .....


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

brian john said:


> No one side has a lock on anything, quality, hacks, slobs, jerky foremen and side jobbers.
> 
> Only issue *I THINK* might be it is easier for an open shop man to start a company. Some locals make it difficult for one man union shops.


I agree people are people. Although it is getting easier for one man shops to open. If you sign as the owner you don't have to report your hours as where most guys have their wives as owners to get the minority status. When you don't report, your only screwing yourself later so it's a fine line.


----------



## mdfriday (May 14, 2007)

Mr Rewire said:


> I didn't say you lied but you did get reckless with the truth.


Um, No. All true. Keep living in denial. As long as you believe it, it is true. Right?

I do not "need" to come on this forum and deceive people, I am who I am, and I say what I see everyday, the *TRUTH* is, it happens. You cannot deny that. Heck, some owners go work on the union j mans side jobs for cash...:whistling2:

Who works for who, no one knows anymore :laughing:

I think the issue comes in with ANYONE doing any work they are not licensed to do, but the fact is, Union men sign an agreement, non-union men do not. (Unless it is company specific, which most are worth less than the paper they are written on.) This problem is NOT industry specific.


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## koontzzy (Aug 28, 2011)

Magnettica said:


> Not for the union guy. All he cares about is a bloated paycheck, a huge benefits package, and a pension. Of course most of this is funded by you and I the tax payer through jobs they get for the govt for example. Ever wonder why a a 1/4 mile stretch of road costs so much?


Ok you say that but if the job went nonunion it more than like is prevailing wage and you make the same but with out the benefits .... So the tax payers are still paying the same price


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## Butt Splice (Aug 28, 2011)

koontzzy said:


> Ok you say that but if the job went nonunion it more than like is prevailing wage and you make the same but with out the benefits .... So the tax payers are still paying the same price


Non-union electricians work harder. That means higher production rates, or to the contrary, more quality per dollar spent. That's because non-union men don't take a 45 minute lunch and two thirty minute coffee breaks in an eaight hour ****f!


----------



## Control Freak (Mar 8, 2008)

Butt Splice said:


> Non-union electricians work harder. That means higher production rates, or to the contrary, more quality per dollar spent. That's because non-union men don't take a 45 minute lunch and two thirty minute coffee breaks in an eaight hour ****f!


How can anyone make a statement like this. Lunch is a half hour and coffee is 15 minutes here in NYC. One coffee break in an 8 hour day which by the way we have a 7 hour day here. If you don't produce you get laid off. I love it when a non union member states a fact about union workers.

How many master bundles of 4" and 6" gal have you spun together in water treatment plants? 

I guess its easier for you to shape in 500's then us. How do non union guys work harder? There are slackers everywhere.

There are too many trolls on this site that are here to just bash unions. Seems like that's the end result of almost every thread these days. Makes me sick.


----------



## Control Freak (Mar 8, 2008)

How can anyone make a statement like this. Lunch is a half hour and coffee is 15 minutes here in NYC. One coffee break in an 8 hour day which by the way we have a 7 hour day here. If you don't produce you get laid off. I love it when a non union member states a fact about union workers.

How many master bundles of 4" and 6" gal have you spun together in water treatment plants? 

I guess its easier for you to shape in 500's then us. How do non union guys work harder? There are slackers everywhere.

There are too many trolls on this site that are here to just bash unions. Seems like that's the end result of almost every thread these days. Makes me sick.


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## Wireman191 (Aug 28, 2011)

Magnettica said:


> Not for the union guy. All he cares about is a bloated paycheck, a huge benefits package, and a pension. Of course most of this is funded by you and I the tax payer through jobs they get for the govt for example. Ever wonder why a a 1/4 mile stretch of road costs so much?


 This MAKES ME LAUGH CAUSE IVE NEVER WORKED ON A GOVERNMENT FUNDED JOB!


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## Wireman191 (Aug 28, 2011)

Butt Splice said:


> Non-union electricians work harder. That means higher production rates, or to the contrary, more quality per dollar spent. That's because non-union men don't take a 45 minute lunch and two thirty minute coffee breaks in an eaight hour ****f!


 We get paid good money for what we do and were still around cause we are lazy?


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Control Freak said:


> There are too many trolls on this site that are here to just bash unions. Seems like that's the end result of almost every thread these days. Makes me sick.


It make me sick that daily non-union workers are called scabs and subjected to a bunch of crap face to face. 

Yet you can't even put up with the words you read on a forum.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Wireman191 said:


> We get paid good money for what we do and were still around cause we are lazy?


Your market share is falling steadily, why is that?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Control Freak said:


> ............How many master bundles of 4" and 6" gal have you spun together ........


What difference does the size of pipe / wire have to do with it? What makes 4" and 6" so special? Or are you simply using large pipes as an example because you're compensating for something? You know what Freud says about preoccupation with size?


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## Mr. Troubleshooter (Aug 21, 2011)

gold said:


> There are no union residential guys here.


I dont think local 3 has a resi division, but i know for a fact that local 25 has a resi division. The resi guys r on a lower pay scale then the commercial guys


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

Control Freak said:


> by the way we have a 7 hour day here.


What does that mean? You only get paid 35 hours per week?


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## koontzzy (Aug 28, 2011)

Butt Splice said:


> Non-union electricians work harder. That means higher production rates, or to the contrary, more quality per dollar spent. That's because non-union men don't take a 45 minute lunch and two thirty minute coffee breaks in an eaight hour ****f!


By the way its one 10 min coffee break and one 30 min lunch and I dunno how you can say one works harder then the other some of both screw off but there are a lot of union guys and nonunion guys that work hard and go 8 for 8


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## AUX Contact (Aug 28, 2011)

480sparky said:


> What difference does the size of pipe / wire have to do with it? What makes 4" and 6" so special? Or are you simply using large pipes as an example because you're compensating for something? You know what Freud says about preoccupation with size?


thats right! you union electricians never deal with large unruly SE Cable like us!!


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## koontzzy (Aug 28, 2011)

I'm not gonna beat around in the bushes I'm ibew inside wireman (union) and proud of it while it's bull**** that some nonunion guys hire ******* and I don't under stand how they can feel that there good Americans ... All that is doing is hurting the country we all call home


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## koontzzy (Aug 28, 2011)

AUX Contact said:


> thats right! you union electricians never deal with large unruly SE Cable like us!!


I dunno what your talking about but I've pulled every size of wire and ran every size of pipe


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

AUX Contact said:


> thats right! you union electricians never deal with large unruly SE Cable like us!!



You might want to get your facts straight. :whistling2:


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

koontzzy said:


> I'm not gonna beat around in the bushes I'm ibew inside wireman (union) and proud of it while it's bull**** that some nonunion guys hire ******* and I don't under stand how they can feel that there good Americans ... All that is doing is hurting the country we all call home


Nice racist attitude. Do you know for a fact these employees are what you called them? Do you spend your days carding strangers?


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## koontzzy (Aug 28, 2011)

No but when there's a roamer of ins coming they scatter like flys.... I kinda think something is fishy


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## Sparky3 (Nov 21, 2010)

BBQ said:


> Your market share is falling steadily, why is that?


Because the wage is being undermined by unskilled and untrained labor it's a big city lots of rats around here.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Sparky3 said:


> Because the wage is being undermined by unskilled and untrained labor it's a big city lots of rats around here.


Actually it is being taken by guys as trained and as qualified who work 8 for 8. :thumbsup:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

I wonder if yesterday's Butt Splice is today's Aux Contact.. :detective:


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## Mountain Electrician (Jan 22, 2007)

Shockdoc said:


> When you see 12/4 MC going to a single phase resi panel you know it's not good.


I was crawling around the attic of a ranch house in the south east New Mexican desert once and found Class I, Div I fittings and sealtight used to wire a bunch of stuff. Turns out the ranch owner had also worked at a local refinery for years and years.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Mountain Electrician said:


> I was crawling around the attic of a ranch house in the south east New Mexican desert once and found Class I, Div I fittings and sealtight used to wire a bunch of stuff. Turns out the ranch owner had also worked at a local refinery for years and years.


A friend bought a house in West VA and asked me to inspect it. All the waste lines were copper, 4” copper with all the fittings. Seems the previous HO (and home builder) was a plumber for the federal government. Wonder who paid for the 4”.

The electrical was NM and had no issues.


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

Sparky3 said:


> Because the wage is being undermined by unskilled and untrained labor it's a big city lots of rats around here.


You can't be serious..........

Chances are, you rely on reading a print to know what to do. 
If it says run 1" EMT over to there, you do it. If the 1" Emt isn't at your feet, you complain that it isn't your job to go get it. If you don't have a print,you'd be lost.

Guys on this site, lay-out work, order materials, put together work flow plans, bid jobs, interface with customers, and think ahead to avoid conflicts with other trades.
There is no better person than this in the field.

Comparing yourself to them, you would be the unskilled and untrained lunky dunk. 
If it's so easy, why are you an employee?

Big talk is all you have.


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## Sparky3 (Nov 21, 2010)

Dnkldorf said:


> You can't be serious..........
> 
> Chances are, you rely on reading a print to know what to do.
> If it says run 1" EMT over to there, you do it. If the 1" Emt isn't at your feet, you complain that it isn't your job to go get it. If you don't have a print,you'd be lost.
> ...


I was commenting on the declining market share, what are you crying about? Yes I'm an employee and no it's not easy, have been a foreman for 15 years and work along side the best journeyman in the industry. There is no complaining in my crew about where the pipe is because the pipe is at there feet, as a foreman that's my job to lay out the work and to make sure the crew has all the material they need for the task at hand. Then my job gets easy because the work is being done skilled union electricians. Big Talker


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## troublemaker1701 (Aug 11, 2011)

Magnettica said:


> Union guys get very confused about home wiring.


That is like saying nonunion are confused about commercial wiring


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

troublemaker1701 said:


> That is like saying nonunion are confused about commercial wiring


Residential codes are more confusing and complex than commercial.

Commercial is alot easier.


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## Sparky3 (Nov 21, 2010)

Dnkldorf said:


> Residential codes are more confusing and complex than commercial.
> 
> Commercial is alot easier.


What's confusing about residential codes?


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

I can't explain why, but I truly love union dribble


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## Wireman191 (Aug 28, 2011)

Dnkldorf said:


> Residential codes are more confusing and complex than commercial.
> 
> Commercial is alot easier.


 :laughing:


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

Sparky3 said:


> What's confusing about residential codes?


Visit and posts some answers in the code forum section, and you'll see that dwelling unit stuff is night and day to non dwelling stuff.

The guys that do residential work have a ton more things to remember than I do, and the work itself is alot harder and more complex.

Union side jobbers wouldn't know this though.


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

troublemaker1701 said:


> That is like saying nonunion are confused about commercial wiring


Well I would say residential electricians are confused by commercial and commercial electricians are confused by residential. Generally speaking of course. There really are a lot of differences between the two. Union for the most part are commercial it isnt that much of a stretch to say that most union electricians have limited residential experience.

It also isn't a stretch to say most union electricians build from spec and have little need to design build or layout there own installs and therefore less experience doing so. It goes without saying tho that would do a much better job building from spec.

Point is there are differences between the two markets that naturally leads to different experience levels. 

Union side has more slugs that don't care non union has more hacks that don't know.

Most stereotypes (on both sides) have merit.

.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

When is all the crying going to stop? Everyone has different skill sets and different choices in life.


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## walkerj (May 13, 2007)

gold said:


> Well I would say residential electricians are confused by commercial and commercial electricians are confused by residential. Generally speaking of course. There really are a lot of differences between the two. Union for the most part are commercial it isnt that much of a stretch to say that most union electricians have limited residential experience.
> 
> It also isn't a stretch to say most union electricians build from spec and have little need to design build or layout there own installs and therefore less experience doing so. It goes without saying tho that would do a much better job building from spec.
> 
> ...


You are spot on.

Sent from your mom's iPhone. She says hi.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

Magnettica said:


> Union guys get very confused about home wiring.


 ..................................


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## Steinsbu52 (Aug 4, 2011)

Magnettica said:


> Not for the union guy. All he cares about is a bloated paycheck, a huge benefits package, and a pension. Of course most of this is funded by you and I the tax payer through jobs they get for the govt for example. Ever wonder why a a 1/4 mile stretch of road costs so much?


you are a moron


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## Steinsbu52 (Aug 4, 2011)

Loose Neutral said:


> I agree people are people. Although it is getting easier for one man shops to open. If you sign as the owner you don't have to report your hours as where most guys have their wives as owners to get the minority status. When you don't report, your only screwing yourself later so it's a fine line.


You put in your wife's name so that you can pay dues and get benefits, you do not get the benefits if you are an owner opertaor.


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## Steinsbu52 (Aug 4, 2011)

Butt Splice said:


> Non-union electricians work harder. That means higher production rates, or to the contrary, more quality per dollar spent. That's because non-union men don't take a 45 minute lunch and two thirty minute coffee breaks in an eaight hour ****f!


That is BS.
Maybe if you look at statistics, you will see that you are more productive with breaks then without.


----------



## Steinsbu52 (Aug 4, 2011)

BBQ said:


> Your market share is falling steadily, why is that?


Because the non-union wages are going down an d we can not compete with $10.00 P/H


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## Steinsbu52 (Aug 4, 2011)

Mr. Troubleshooter said:


> I dont think local 3 has a resi division, but i know for a fact that local 25 has a resi division. The resi guys r on a lower pay scale then the commercial guys


As they should be, takes less knowledge to do resi work then commercial work.


----------



## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

Steinsbu52 said:


> You put in your wife's name so that you can pay dues and get benefits, you do not get the benefits if you are an owner opertaor.


I was just showing the other side. I know the wife deal. You do get bennies being an owner operator if you report.


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## Steinsbu52 (Aug 4, 2011)

BBQ said:


> Actually it is being taken by guys as trained and as qualified who work 8 for 8. :thumbsup:


Another BS statement


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Steinsbu52 said:


> Because the non-union wages are going down an d we can not compete with $10.00 P/H


Actually it has more to do with the piss poor job the union has done at positioning itself in a way that makes people want to use union labor.

In other words people would pay extra for union labor if they could see a value in it. 

(By the way, don't believe everything you hear from the hall, many merit shops pay very well and provide great bennnys. Of course some royally suck, but that is where personal responsibility comes in. )


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## Steinsbu52 (Aug 4, 2011)

Dnkldorf said:


> You can't be serious..........
> 
> Chances are, you rely on reading a print to know what to do.
> If it says run 1" EMT over to there, you do it. If the 1" Emt isn't at your feet, you complain that it isn't your job to go get it. If you don't have a print,you'd be lost.
> ...


not everyone can be an owner, most of us want to go home after 8 hours and not have to stop on the way home to collect money or bid a job amongst other items of being in business. Remember we all work for a boss. Compnay, Foreman or a customer


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## Steinsbu52 (Aug 4, 2011)

Dnkldorf said:


> Visit and posts some answers in the code forum section, and you'll see that dwelling unit stuff is night and day to non dwelling stuff.
> 
> The guys that do residential work have a ton more things to remember than I do, and the work itself is alot harder and more complex.
> 
> Union side jobbers wouldn't know this though.


Are you a complete idiot or what????


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Steinsbu52 said:


> Another BS statement


Nope not at all, the merit shops I have worked for both had state accredited in house apprentice training along with all the same OSHA and safety training the union guys have. :thumbsup:

Our safety person has done training for union contractors on site at the request of the GC. :laughing:


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## Steinsbu52 (Aug 4, 2011)

Loose Neutral said:


> I was just showing the other side. I know the wife deal. You do get bennies being an owner operator if you report.


Not in all locals


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## mdfriday (May 14, 2007)

BBQ said:


> Actually it has more to do with the piss poor job the union has done at positioning itself in a way that makes people want to use union labor.
> 
> *In other words people would pay extra for union labor if they could see a value in it. *
> 
> (By the way, don't believe everything you hear from the hall, many merit shops pay very well and provide great bennnys. Of course some royally suck, but that is where personal responsibility comes in. )



Coming from someone who works for a union contractor, that is spot on. Too many times have we not been utilized for a project because we _ARE_ union....

Heck, Chicago is not the union stronghold everyone assumes it is....

I bet a LARGE percentage of the work going on (Actually) is done non-union. In the city, in the "Loop", and in the suburbs. All totaled, I bet the union has less than 1/2 the market share. That may be a gimme too.....

It is all about the CUSTOMER'S perception, and not what someone _deserves_.

Right now, the customers believe that unions are a rip-off, and also, too much of a pain to deal with.


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

BBQ said:


> Actually it has more to do with the piss poor job the union has done at positioning itself in a way that makes people want to use union labor.
> 
> In other words people would pay extra for union labor if they could see a value in it.
> 
> (By the way, don't believe everything you hear from the hall, many merit shops pay very well and provide great bennnys. Of course some royally suck, but that is where personal responsibility comes in. )


It is wages and thats the bottom line a non union shop mpays less and have little or no benefits those that do pay only pay a select few. If the non union companies didn't have to worry about the union all wages would go down. funny part is the non union shops that do pay base it on what the union guys are getting. :laughing:


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

Steinsbu52 said:


> Not in all locals


I sure can't speak for every local, but most can collect under alumni status. I don't think you can promote growth by taking away someones bennies.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Steinsbu52 said:


> As they should be, takes less knowledge to do resi work then commercial work.


Another BS statement


----------



## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Steinsbu52 said:


> not everyone can be an owner,...


A more accurate statement would be _"not everyone wants to be an owner,..."_




Steinsbu52 said:


> most of us want to go home after 8 hours and not have to stop on the way home to collect money or bid a job amongst other items of being in business. .....


Again, more accurately this applies to most union workers, which is a good part of the reason they want to be in the union. It is the highest pay scale segment of the trade. 

IMO most non-union employees strive to have their own business some day. In the non-union sector this is MUCH more realistic.


----------



## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

Speedy Petey said:


> A more accurate statement would be _"not everyone wants to be an owner,..."_
> 
> 
> Again, more accurately this applies to most union workers, which is a good part of the reason they want to be in the union. It is the highest pay scale segment of the trade.
> ...


Why wouldn't it be? Non union are more likely to encourage their employees to purchase the majority of the tools they need to complete a job. After a few years you now have the tools and the know how to be your own boss if you want to.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Mr Rewire said:


> It is wages and thats the bottom line


No it is not the bottom line ........ unless you are very short sighted.




> a non union shop mpays less and have little or no benefits those that do pay only pay a select few.


That certainly describes some non-union shops.

It does not describe all non-union shops.

But yes, pay from employee does vary based on many factors, mostly their knowledge and or productivity. Paying everyone the same wage regardless of performance is nothing but stupid. 




> If the non union companies didn't have to worry about the union all wages would go down.


That is true, and you will not find one post of mine disputing that. The wage I make is without a doubt higher because of the unions. 




> funny part is the non union shops that do pay base it on what the union guys are getting. :laughing:


I am not sure why you find smart business funny, but than again 'smart' and 'business' are not really you. :jester:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Speedy Petey said:


> IMO most non-union employees strive to have their own business some day. In the non-union sector this is MUCH more realistic.


I agree.. any employee who runs a truck for a EC will think how easy it is and the boss in making thousands off his skills..

He feels underpaid and starts thinking about getting a license and making all the money for himself..

Sound familiar to anyone.. :whistling2::laughing:


----------



## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

B4T said:


> I agree.. any employee who runs a truck for a EC will think how easy it is and the boss in making thousands off his skills..


In the meantime though he is (typically) getting paid pretty well for this. If not he should seek out employment from someone who will. 
Again, not typically as much as a union employee, but it is a different lifestyle from a union position.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Mr Rewire said:


> ..... a non union shop mpays less and have little or no benefits .........


Of all the places I used to work at, they *all* provided health insurance, sick days and vacation pay at a minimum.

Others provided unreimbursed medical and child care tax exemptions, dental, vision, tool allowances, clothing allowance, IRA or 401k plans/contributions, etc.

I have never heard of a local non-unon shop that did not provide any bennies at all.


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

BBQ said:


> I am not sure why you find smart business funny, but than again 'smart' and 'business' are not really you. :jester:


 So the best you can do is try and build yourself up by trying to tear someone else dowm. How sad :no::no:


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

480sparky said:


> Of all the places I used to work at, they *all* provided health insurance, sick days and vacation pay at a minimum.
> 
> Others provided unreimbursed medical and child care tax exemptions, dental, vision, tool allowances, clothing allowance, IRA or 401k plans/contributions, etc.
> 
> I have never heard of a local non-unon shop that did not provide any bennies at all.


 I have never worked for a non union shop that had health insurance or sick days. Some had vacation and paid holidays. I know of no local non union shop that offers unreimbursed medical and child care tax exemptions, dental, vision, tool allowances, clothing allowance, IRA or 401k plans/contributions, etc.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

I was at my supply house this afternoon. I saw the big union contractor loading up 20 rolls of romex and a bunch of nail up boxes. I said I thought you guys only did large commercial projects....He smiled and said it depends on who it's for......I have no idea if its a union jo or a side project....:laughing:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Mr Rewire said:


> So the best you can do is try and build yourself up by trying to tear someone else dowm. How sad :no::no:


You are the last guy who should be singing that tune.. :no:


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

jwjrw said:


> I was at my supply house this afternoon. I saw the big union contractor loading up 20 rolls of romex and a bunch of nail up boxes. I said I thought you guys only did large commercial projects....He smiled and said it depends on who it's for......I have no idea if its a union jo or a side project....:laughing:


 so when did romex stop being allowed on a commercial job?:whistling2:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Mr Rewire said:


> So the best you can do is try and build yourself up by trying to tear someone else dowm. How sad :no::no:


Yeah OK, you have always been such shinning example of a courteous and considerate forum member I am out of line busting your balls. :laughing::laughing:


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

B4T said:


> You are the last guy who should be singing that tune.. :no:


 uping your post count?


----------



## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

BBQ said:


> Yeah OK, you have always been such shinning example of a courteous and considerate forum member I am out of line busting your balls. :laughing::laughing:


 Its new leaf time or are you not up to the challenge.:whistling2:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Mr Rewire said:


> uping your post count?


No.. just trying to set the record straight and I never worry about my post count.. :no:

You just have a way of walking around with blinders on like a donkey pulling a milk cart..


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

B4T said:


> No.. just trying to set the record straight and I never worry about my post count.. :no:
> 
> You just have a way of walking around with blinders on like a donkey pulling a milk cart..


You are not up to the challenge maybe one day.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Mr Rewire said:


> I have never worked for a non union shop that had health insurance or sick days. Some had vacation and paid holidays. I know of no local non union shop that offers unreimbursed medical and child care tax exemptions, dental, vision, tool allowances, clothing allowance, IRA or 401k plans/contributions, etc.


Well, now you know they do exist, so you and The Brotherhood can stop proclaiming that there are no non-unions shops that offer bennies.


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

480sparky said:


> Well, now you know they do exist, so you and The Brotherhood can stop proclaiming that there are no non-unions shops that offer bennies.


 I know some do , very few. The vast majority don't. Mostly it is the very large shops that want to compete against the union.


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## mrmike (Dec 10, 2010)

I worked in a Plant that was in-house Union & on-site Non-Union contractors that the Company used to play against us. They were paid a dollar less an hour than us, and had no benifits or sick days. 
Most local Non-Union people had their name the Company to join us- with benifits, sick days & some rights, which have eroded since Reagan & the rest of them, that are against the American Worker's Rights !!!


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Mr Rewire said:


> I know some do , very few. The vast majority don't.


You have no idea how it is outside your little area.

When I started it was for a one man shop, I was his only employee, I had a weeks paid vacation, health insurance and paid holidays. He also paid me OT over 8 hours and DT on Sundays.

We did not compete against the union.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

mrmike said:


> I worked in a Plant that was in-house Union & on-site Non-Union contractors that the Company used to play against us. They were paid a dollar less an hour than us, and had no benifits or sick days.
> Most local Non-Union people had their name the Company to join us- with benifits, sick days & some rights, which have eroded since Reagan & the rest of them, that are against the American Worker's Rights !!!


No one is against the rights of workers,, all that is big crybaby BS line because the unions cant get their way 100% of the time.

BTW if it were not for Reagan you probably would never been able to get a job in the 1980's never mind getting in the union.


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

BBQ said:


> You have no idea how it is outside your little area.
> 
> When I started it was for a one man shop, I was his only employee, I had a weeks paid vacation, health insurance and paid holidays. He also paid me OT over 8 hours and DT on Sundays.
> 
> We did not compete against the union.


I call shenanigans, a one man shop offering health insurance. You can't even get an affordable group plan insuring less than ten people. Aflac aint health insurance:whistling2:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Mr Rewire said:


> I call shenanigans, a one man shop offering health insurance. You can't even get an affordable group plan insuring less than ten people.


I don't care what you call it. :laughing:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BBQ said:


> I don't care what you call it. :laughing:


Don't screw with a man who was offended by seeing "boobies" over at ***.. :laughing:


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

BBQ said:


> I don't care what you call it. :laughing:


 Most non union shops don't offer health insurance do to cost you can't argue that point. The majority of non union shops are small which limits their ability to pay benenfits.


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

B4T said:


> Don't screw with a man who was offended by seeing "boobies" over at ***.. :laughing:


It was the Boobs over at *** not the boobies.:whistling2:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Mr Rewire said:


> Most non union shops don't offer health insurance do to cost


Again, that may be true in your area, it is not true here.




> you can't argue that point.



You are right, there is nothing to argue about, around here it is very common for non union shops to offer full benifits. 


Of course not all, but most do. 



> The majority of non union shops are small which limits their ability to pay benenfits.


They seem to find a way.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Why do you argue with Rewire? you know he is just here to argue. Dude lives on a lake and doesn't even know how to properly wire a dock.


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

sbrn33 said:


> Why do you argue with Rewire? you know he is just here to argue. Dude lives on a lake and doesn't even know how to properly wire a dock.


 Because arguing with you would be waaaay to easy :whistling2:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

sbrn33 said:


> Why do you argue with Rewire? you know he is just here to argue.


That sounds like a question I should ask a shrink about. :laughing:


----------



## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

BBQ said:


> Again, that may be true in your area, it is not true here.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 well neither of us can offer substantial proof of our statements so i will move on.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Really? I employ 6 people. I pay health for anybody that needs it( if they don't I pay more per hour). One guy has worked for me for 12 years, he gets 4 weeks. Another one has worked for 10 or so, I think he get 3 maybe 4.
Two newer guys get 1 week, 2 after 2 I buy most of their tools. 
After they have worked for me for about 5 years they end up making the best electricians out there because they have almost worked every aspect of the trade.( They even know how to properly wire a dock)


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

You can be my new hero


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

sbrn33 said:


> Really? I employ 6 people. I pay health for anybody that needs it( if they don't I pay more per hour). One guy has worked for me for 12 years, he gets 4 weeks. Another one has worked for 10 or so, I think he get 3 maybe 4.
> Two newer guys get 1 week, 2 after 2 I buy most of their tools.
> After they have worked for me for about 5 years they end up making the best electricians out there because they have almost worked every aspect of the trade.( They even know how to properly wire a dock)


They don't know how to wire a dock here


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Granted I only worked for three guys prior, one gave me health care and one week after two years and two weeks after three years. 
The medical was a trade off one year for a raise, and it was only about half the cost. I think there were only 5 or 6 people on the plan.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Rewire Are you collecting unemployment yet?


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

sbrn33 said:


> Rewire Are you collecting unemployment yet?


 Why would I be collecting unemployement? The last time I collected unemployment was over ten years ago.


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*unemployment*

I've never collected unemployment. If I don't work I don't make money. I've never collected anything free from the government. I pride myself in not being a leech. I hate bums and lazy arses


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Shockdoc said:


> We have many local 25 and 3 guys using their union card as a "license" to homeowners who don't know any better. I just came back from meeting one of my contractors from a job he cannot close up because the need an underwriters for the new work a trunk slammer did for them. 5 1900 box junctions in a soffit, meanwhile a open attic is a foot away. A 2" mast with the coupling in soffit and no support over coupling at roofline. All 20 amp breakers with type mc, old 14 uf,14 romex . Truly comical workmanship. The homeo2wner who insisted his electrician be used now asked for an underwriters. My answer was re presenting the original bid and I'll deduct about $500 for the hihat housings already installed but will be ripping out everything and starting from scratch wiring wise.:laughing:


I would say to just bid...or T&M the job with your normal way of doing such things. Don't get hyped about it being a union trunk slammer or what have you. Mostly, of all, don't punish the homeowner for his lack of knowledge. Just charge fairly and make money.


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

Cletis said:


> I've never collected unemployment. If I don't work I don't make money. I've never collected anything free from the government. I pride myself in not being a leech. I hate bums and lazy arses


 Unemployment is not from the government as an employer I thought you would know that.


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*same*

Yes, I do know how that works. Still don't like the ones that milk it out. Like work 6 months and have 2 yrs off type of thing. When you sit around and don't work someone is paying the price. It's the law of energy.


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

A one man shop with bennies paying doubletime? When was this 82?


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

gold said:


> A one man shop with bennies paying doubletime? When was this 82?


It's not impossible.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

HARRY304E said:


> It's not impossible.


...sure


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

360max said:


> ...sure


Its not impossible


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## Steinsbu52 (Aug 4, 2011)

Cletis said:


> I've never collected unemployment. If I don't work I don't make money. I've never collected anything free from the government. I pride myself in not being a leech. I hate bums and lazy arses


Well aren't you my new little hero


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Steinsbu52 said:


> Well aren't you my new little hero


He works for him self so if he has no work he gets no pay.

Those who run their own business get no unemployment when the work runs out.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

360max said:


> ...sure



:laughing::laughing:


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

BBQ said:


> That sounds like a question I should ask a shrink about. :laughing:


No shrink is gonna be able to fix you :no: :laughing:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

gold said:


> A one man shop with bennies paying doubletime? When was this 82?





HARRY304E said:


> It's not impossible.





360max said:


> ...sure


360, I am sorry no one every valued your work enough to pay you decently without the union fighting your battles for you. :thumbsup:


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## Steinsbu52 (Aug 4, 2011)

BBQ said:


> 360, I am sorry no one every valued your work enough to pay you decently without the union fighting your battles for you. :thumbsup:


Do you not understand what a union does and what we stand for. The union is not for fighting battles. We have fair wage negotiated by membership representatives and union local representatives ( voted into office, not appointed) with the local chapter of NECA and then we vote on their recommendation. The "UNION" are the members.


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## Steinsbu52 (Aug 4, 2011)

HARRY304E said:


> He works for him self so if he has no work he gets no pay.
> 
> Those who run their own business get no unemployment when the work runs out.


Because you do not pay into the fund, then why in the heck would you collect something that you never paid into????


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

Steinsbu52 said:


> Because you do not pay into the fund, then why in the heck would you collect something that you never paid into????


Interesting question? Let me reword it for you. Since an employee doesn't put any money into the fund, why should they collect something they never paid into?


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## Steinsbu52 (Aug 4, 2011)

knowshorts said:


> Interesting question? Let me reword it for you. Since an employee doesn't put any money into the fund, why should they collect something they never paid into?


Because you (employer) have that requirement , so then part of my total wage package includes what you just paid in. Also part of my wage package would include the medical, vacations, holiday pay, and any other fringe benefits that you give.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Steinsbu52 said:


> Do you not understand what a union does and what we stand for. The union is not for fighting battles. We have fair wage negotiated by membership representatives and union local representatives ( voted into office, not appointed) with the local chapter of NECA and then we vote on their recommendation. The "UNION" are the members.


Exactly, the union fights your battles for you pay, bennys etc, I choose to fight my own.


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

BBQ said:


> Exactly, the union fights your battles for you pay, bennys etc, I choose to fight my own.


We choose to bargain you choose to beg


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## Island Electric (May 9, 2011)

If I remember correctly rewire.... it's

"United we Bargain Divided We beg"


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## mdfriday (May 14, 2007)

Mr Rewire said:


> We choose to bargain you choose to beg



Whats this "we" crap. I thought you are the owner of two companies?

It is funny how you sing a different tune depending on which side of the fence you are playing today.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Mr Rewire said:


> We choose to bargain you choose to beg





Island Electric said:


> If I remember correctly rewire.... it's
> 
> "United we Bargain Divided We beg"


:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:

That is funny. :laughing:


----------



## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

mdfriday said:


> Whats this "we" crap. I thought you are the owner of two companies?
> 
> It is funny how you sing a different tune depending on which side of the fence you are playing today.


I still carry a class A ticket


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Cletis said:


> I've never collected unemployment. If I don't work I don't make money. I've never collected anything free from the government. I pride myself in not being a leech. I hate bums and lazy arses


So if I understand your logic, you will not have your car repaired by your insurance company, you will not use the health insurance you pay for and if something happens to your house, you will not accept free money from your insurance company to pay for the repairs.

Have you had your water tested for heavy metals lately??

Do you accept free police protection from the government?
Have you ever called 911 or know someone that survived from the help of the Fire Department?
Do you drive on free roads?

I believe its called living in a society; Insofar as it is collaborative, a society can enable its members to benefit in ways that would not otherwise be possible on an individual basis; both individual and social (common) benefits can thus be distinguished, or in many cases found to overlap. A society can also consist of like-minded people governed by their own norms and values within a dominant, larger society.

I enjoy the freedom I have, give it a try sometime soon...


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## Island Electric (May 9, 2011)

*


BBQ said:



:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:

That is funny. :laughing:

Click to expand...

*
Yes it is:laughing:


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## amptech (Sep 21, 2007)

jrannis said:


> So if I understand your logic, you will not have your car repaired by your insurance company, you will not use the health insurance you pay for and if something happens to your house, you will not accept free money from your insurance company to pay for the repairs.
> 
> Have you had your water tested for heavy metals lately??
> 
> ...


This post is puzzling. There is no "free" money from insurance companies. There is no "free" police or fire protection. There are no "free" roads or hiways. There are no "free" health benefits. Someone pays for all of that stuff. If he pays rent or pays property taxes, pays auto insurance premiums, buys gasoline, buys plates for a vehicle, pays sales tax, pays state and federal income tax and pays health insurance premiums he has paid for all of the things you mentioned. I think he was saying he has never applied or excepted anything he hasn't already paid into and has avoided drawing from some government programs that he possibly has funded through taxes. Nothing wrong with that. My dad didn't want to draw SS. He had saved for his golden years and felt SS was for those who either couldn't or didn't. To each their own.


----------



## Steinsbu52 (Aug 4, 2011)

jrannis said:


> So if I understand your logic, you will not have your car repaired by your insurance company, you will not use the health insurance you pay for and if something happens to your house, you will not accept free money from your insurance company to pay for the repairs.
> 
> Have you had your water tested for heavy metals lately??
> 
> ...


Nice


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## fowledup (Mar 27, 2011)

It's funny (pathetic actually) how the non-union folks buy into the BS and stereotypes they've been taught to believe about Unions. While at the same time using us to compare their training, work ethics, standards, wages, benefits, knowlege and abilities. Most of you dislike us and don't really know why, it's just what you've been told to do. What would you be making without us? What would your bosses profit margin be without us? Somebody brought up marketshare earilier. Who gets the biggest portion of the marketshare- the guy who will work for the least. It's why nothing is made in America anymore, because someone else will do it cheaper (not better) When the jobs went to foriegn countries did the products price point lower or the quality improve? NO! The only thing that changed was the profit margin to the owners of the companies. It's no different on any scale. I've heard this argument compared to the Ford vs. Chevy thing in that no one will ever agree which is better. Well it's time forget the argument, and get together as American workers before we all end up like Ford and Chevy.


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

fowledup said:


> It's funny (pathetic actually) how the non-union folks buy into the BS and stereotypes they've been taught to believe about Unions. While at the same time using us to compare their training, work ethics, standards, wages, benefits, knowlege and abilities. Most of you dislike us and don't really know why, it's just what you've been told to do. What would you be making without us? What would your bosses profit margin be without us? Somebody brought up marketshare earilier. Who gets the biggest portion of the marketshare- the guy who will work for the least. It's why nothing is made in America anymore, because someone else will do it cheaper (not better) When the jobs went to foriegn countries did the products price point lower or the quality improve? NO! The only thing that changed was the profit margin to the owners of the companies. It's no different on any scale. I've heard this argument compared to the Ford vs. Chevy thing in that no one will ever agree which is better. Well it's time forget the argument, and get together as American workers before we all end up like Ford and Chevy.


That Wal-Mart mentality.


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## fowledup (Mar 27, 2011)

gold said:


> That Wal-Mart mentality.


 Please explain


----------



## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

gold said:


> That Wal-Mart mentality.


And clearly Walmart is King.

Or actually, last I heard, Target was on top.

I was thinking about going to either of those stores and spreading a bunch of pro-union pamphlets just for kicks, April 1st would be appropriate.


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

fowledup said:


> Please explain


You already did in a sense here.


fowledup said:


> It's funny (pathetic actually) how the non-union folks buy into the BS and stereotypes they've been taught to believe about Unions. While at the same time using us to compare their training, work ethics, standards, wages, benefits, knowlege and abilities. Most of you dislike us and don't really know why, it's just what you've been told to do. What would you be making without us? What would your bosses profit margin be without us? Somebody brought up marketshare earilier. Who gets the biggest portion of the marketshare- the guy who will work for the least.* It's why nothing is made in America anymore, because someone else will do it cheaper (not better)* When the jobs went to foriegn countries did the products price point lower or the quality improve? NO! * The only thing that changed was the profit margin to the owners of the companies.* It's no different on any scale. I've heard this argument compared to the Ford vs. Chevy thing in that no one will ever agree which is better. Well it's time forget the argument, and get together as American workers before we all end up like Ford and Chevy.


----------



## Honestly (Feb 3, 2011)

amptech said:


> This post is puzzling. There is no "free" money from insurance companies. There is no "free" police or fire protection. There are no "free" roads or hiways. There are no "free" health benefits. Someone pays for all of that stuff. If he pays rent or pays property taxes, pays auto insurance premiums, buys gasoline, buys plates for a vehicle, pays sales tax, pays state and federal income tax and pays health insurance premiums he has paid for all of the things you mentioned. I think he was saying he has never applied or excepted anything he hasn't already paid into and has avoided drawing from some government programs that he possibly has funded through taxes. Nothing wrong with that. My dad didn't want to draw SS. He had saved for his golden years and felt SS was for those who either couldn't or didn't. To each their own.


Great post.


----------



## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

fowledup said:


> It's funny (pathetic actually) how the non-union folks buy into the BS and stereotypes they've been taught to believe about Unions.


Do you HONESTLY believe us "non-union" folks have been "taught" this stuff? Seriously??? You really think so many of us hear about these things around the water cooler and either make it up or just listen to fake stories and go around spreading them? Honestly? 

You don't think anything said has any basis in truth?


----------



## Steinsbu52 (Aug 4, 2011)

Speedy Petey said:


> Do you HONESTLY believe us "non-union" folks have been "taught" this stuff? Seriously??? You really think so many of us hear about these things around the water cooler and either make it up or just listen to fake stories and go around spreading them? Honestly?
> 
> You don't think anything said has any basis in truth?


Yes, I honestly believe it, after you hear it from enough people, it must be true.


----------



## IBEW191 (Apr 4, 2011)

\


Speedy Petey said:


> Do you HONESTLY believe us "non-union" folks have been "taught" this stuff? Seriously??? You really think so many of us hear about these things around the water cooler and either make it up or just listen to fake stories and go around spreading them? Honestly?
> 
> You don't think anything said has any basis in truth?


I work with a guy that served his apprenticeship, and 3 years as a journeymen non-union, He said he was told Union was garbage, yada yada yada. Funny thing is the only thing true was that he had to pay dues! Followed up with "Best decision Ive ever made"


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## IBEW191 (Apr 4, 2011)

Shockdoc said:


> The contractor wanted me to perform the work, the homeowner insisted his friend be used .


 If it was his "friend" how is it Union guys using there ticket? How is a Dues receipt going to be confused with a EL? I think your over exaggerating here:whistling2::whistling2::whistling2:


----------



## fowledup (Mar 27, 2011)

Yes I actually do, not all, but enough to spread more false anti Union BS and hearsay. Let me ask you this- have you ever worked on a Union job before? Where did you witness your negative experience with us. I ask this all the time and seldom do I hear it's from personal experience it's usually second hand info- "I heard" or "I know a guy". If I then follow up with "what if I could get you in?" 9 out of 10 say - Yes.

Am I saying we don't have problems and problem people - No I'm not, we have the very same ones as you.

You missed my point- We both have a bigger problem- while we bash each other there is a bigger enemy attacking us both. Won't matter if your union or not if there is no work. You blame us, I blame those who can't be satified with a fair profit. The same people who are selling out you, me, and their own country to fullfill their greedy need.

You know what the real difference between us is? When we (Union) win a contract bid, we the workers and contractor share the profit. When you (non-Union) win a contract- You're boss gets the profit. Think of it this way, you folks keep saying how much more we the workers make. Well that's not reflected on the bid is it? The job goes to what contractor put in the best price. If the Union contractors kept the same profit margins as the NU's while keeping in mind our "inflated wages" we could never win a bid, could we?


----------



## fowledup (Mar 27, 2011)

IBEW191 said:


> If it was his "friend" how is it Union guys using there ticket? How is a Dues receipt going to be confused with a EL? I think your over exaggerating here:whistling2::whistling2::whistling2:


You and I both know it wouldn't be. If the HO was stupid enough to accept a dues receipt then they deserve the slug/hack, it's a perfect match. The OP just wanted to get the us vs them thing going for the millionth time, which is ok with me as this ol'dog will hunt that everytime


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

fowledup said:


> Yes I actually do, not all, but enough to spread more false anti Union BS and hearsay. Let me ask you this- have you ever worked on a Union job before? Where did you witness your negative experience with us. I ask this all the time and seldom do I hear it's from personal experience it's usually second hand info- "I heard" or "I know a guy". If I then follow up with "what if I could get you in?" 9 out of 10 say - Yes.


I have not worked myself on a union job because I chose not to, but I have experienced things first hand and also through friends, not just "some guy". 
The old _"have you ever worked on a Union job before?" _tactic does not work on people like me. I see right through questions like that. Do they teach you to ask that question in union school? I bet they do, don't they, because EVERY union guy I have ever had a discussion with that is one of the first things they ask. You are a prime example of this tactic. WHAT difference does it make if I have been on the inside? I can see plenty from out here.
Oh, and I have also been asked if I wanted in and told I could if I wanted. I can with 100% honesty I have always said NO, and been pressured to the point of one time having to say GTF out of my face.







fowledup said:


> You missed my point- We both have a bigger problem- while we bash each other there is a bigger enemy attacking us both. Won't matter if your union or not if there is no work. You blame us, I blame those who can't be satified with a fair profit. The same people who are selling out you, me, and their own country to fullfill their greedy need.


Funny thing is I for one and not blaming anyone for anything. I just choose not be involved with the union for several reasons, most of which I have experienced or witnessed first hand, like being threatened for working in "union territory".

Also, who is this bigger enemy that is full of greedy need? Corporate America? That goes FAR beyond union/non-union, but the unions high prices had a hand in it.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

fowledup said:


> Yes I actually do, not all, but enough to spread more false anti Union BS and hearsay. Let me ask you this- have you ever worked on a Union job before? Where did you witness your negative experience with us.



I have worked many union jobs, often we were the only merit shop on site.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

I have worked both. My days working non-union were not very good. Almost without exception, the jobsites were filthy, everything that could be stolen was stolen, coordination and communication between "trades" was poor. Drugs were openly sold. People came and went from the job all day.

The union jobs were clean and well organized. Every move was efficient, well planned and calculated. Break time and lunch times were exactly timed with the job Steward sounding an airhorn or bell to signal the start and finish. Work started at 7am and the guys "picked up" at 3:15. If someone was not working, everyone noticed. We were expected to work hard, expected to get dirty and most days went home very tired. The structure was very much like the military including the way the chain of command worked. It was very productive.

Just my experience.


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## Steinsbu52 (Aug 4, 2011)

jrannis said:


> I have worked both. My days working non-union were not very good. Almost without exception, the jobsites were filthy, everything that could be stolen was stolen, coordination and communication between "trades" was poor. Drugs were openly sold. People came and went from the job all day.
> 
> The union jobs were clean and well organized. Every move was efficient, well planned and calculated. Break time and lunch times were exactly timed with the job Steward sounding an airhorn or bell to signal the start and finish. Work started at 7am and the guys "picked up" at 3:15. If someone was not working, everyone noticed. We were expected to work hard, expected to get dirty and most days went home very tired. The structure was very much like the military including the way the chain of command worked. It was very productive.
> 
> Just my experience.


It is the way a well run job should operate. I also have seen the other. I salted a large job, dysfunctional at best.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

jrannis said:


> I have worked both. My days working non-union were not very good. Almost without exception, the jobsites were filthy, everything that could be stolen was stolen, coordination and communication between "trades" was poor. Drugs were openly sold. People came and went from the job all day.


Been non-union my entire carreer, never seen a job like that.

Seems like your state should get seroius with licensing and weed out the riff raff. 



> The union jobs were clean and well organized. Every move was efficient, well planned and calculated. Break time and lunch times were exactly timed with the job Steward sounding an airhorn or bell to signal the start and finish. Work started at 7am and the guys "picked up" at 3:15. If someone was not working, everyone noticed. We were expected to work hard, expected to get dirty and most days went home very tired. The structure was very much like the military including the way the chain of command worked. It was very productive.
> 
> Just my experience.


It sounds a bit too good to be believed.


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## Steinsbu52 (Aug 4, 2011)

BBQ said:


> Been non-union my entire carreer, never seen a job like that.
> 
> Seems like your state should get seroius with licensing and weed out the riff raff.
> 
> ...


Good licensing is always a good thing, keeps the riff raff out. All states should have it.


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

Steinsbu52 said:


> Good licensing is always a good thing, keeps the riff raff out. All states should have it.


Not really . Plenty of licensed riff raff.


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## Skinnyelectrician (Aug 10, 2011)

Mr Rewire said:


> Not really . Plenty of licensed riff raff.


No kidding.
I worked for an EC who proudly wore his IECA "Master Electrician" jacket and he wanted me to feed GFCI receptacles off the load side of 60 amp disconnects. 
All because he didn't want to pull the 12 wire circuit.
No Efffin' way, I pulled the circuit in any way!

I got a stern "Talking to" :laughing: After which he said, "it was probably better any way" Followed by, "Next time you do what your told"!


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Does it amaze _any_ of you that one's work integrity can be coerced for a $$$, no matter_ who_ they are?

~CS~


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Skinnyelectrician said:


> No kidding.
> I worked for an EC who proudly wore his IECA "Master Electrician" jacket and he wanted me to feed GFCI receptacles off the load side of 60 amp disconnects.
> All because he didn't want to pull the 12 wire circuit.
> No Efffin' way, I pulled the circuit in any way!
> ...


You too!?


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## Steinsbu52 (Aug 4, 2011)

Mr Rewire said:


> Not really . Plenty of licensed riff raff.


You are also entirely correct, I stand corrected.. It would just be nice that everyone does their work in workmanship like manner. I know that it's a pipe dream, but what the heck.


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## Steinsbu52 (Aug 4, 2011)

Skinnyelectrician said:


> No kidding.
> I worked for an EC who proudly wore his IECA "Master Electrician" jacket and he wanted me to feed GFCI receptacles off the load side of 60 amp disconnects.
> All because he didn't want to pull the 12 wire circuit.
> No Efffin' way, I pulled the circuit in any way!
> ...


What is IECA?


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

chicken steve said:


> Does it amaze _any_ of you that one's work integrity can be coerced for a $$$, no matter_ who_ they are?
> 
> ~CS~


Sometimes you can only do as good as the contractor will allow. I've had times were the job needed certain material and you get the "make it work". Wouldn't be up to my standards, but they writing the checks. You can only ask so many times.


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