# arch fault nightmare!



## Bulldog1 (Oct 21, 2011)

I've had several vacuums trip an arc fault. New vacuum problem fixed. Is it tripping without the vacuum plugged in?


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## Hairbone (Feb 16, 2011)

I had a problem with a customers vac before also. Nice thing is that a new vac fixed the problem


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Are these MWBC's or are they regular branch circuits


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## ohiosparky99 (Nov 12, 2009)

I've also had problems with vacuum cleaners on arc faults


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## Bulldog1 (Oct 21, 2011)

Why did you automatically check for current on the water ground. If it tripped when she used the vacuum seems I would of tried to duplicate the condition.


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## NCSPARKEY (Nov 17, 2011)

Bulldog1 said:


> Why did you automatically check for current on the water ground. If it tripped when she used the vacuum seems I would of tried to duplicate the condition.


We did try it and nothing tripped! We left lights on and nothing! So when I saw the spike on the water ground I was sure it was the power company!


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## PureElectric (Aug 5, 2011)

*Arc Fault, Job security..........*

People will hammer you, if you talk bad about arc fault breakers. Thats because they are working for the Man........ I had a similiar problem. It was a vintage Kurby vac that had a bad bulb in it. some how the arcing affect from the bulb, was tripping the arc fault. Well if you plug in a brand new vacuum the problem might be cured, or not. The only way to understand the future, is to understand that every electrical device will wear out. The arc fault will trip when things get loose in devices and fixtures. Maybe a good suggestion is to replace the vacuum? good luck with that conversation. :001_huh:


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## NCSPARKEY (Nov 17, 2011)

Bulldog1 said:


> I've had several vacuums trip an arc fault. New vacuum problem fixed. Is it tripping without the vacuum plugged in?


Yea it does on and off they could be there watching tv for hrs and then bang it trips! They can go days with no prob and it happens! I already lost my shirt on the job and all want to do is fix the problem and I have no clue how to bc all my work checks out 100%. After putting another circuit on a arc it to tripped


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## NCSPARKEY (Nov 17, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Are these MWBC's or are they regular branch circuits


Mwbc's ? Sorry don't understand that? It is a lighting circuit not feeding any old wiring just what I did. It does not trip unless the hh r on but dewireed the whole job and megga metered everything and all check 100%


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## Bulldog1 (Oct 21, 2011)

NCSPARKEY said:


> Yea it does on and off they could be there watching tv for hrs and then bang it trips! They can go days with no prob and it happens! I already lost my shirt on the job and all want to do is fix the problem and I have no clue how to bc all my work checks out 100%. After putting another circuit on a arc it to tripped



The arc fault is working as designed. You have an issue somewhere.


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## NCSPARKEY (Nov 17, 2011)

Bulldog1 said:


> The arc fault is working as designed. You have an issue somewhere.


 are u saying that I have a problem on a diffrent circuit other then mine and my afci is picking it up? bc I checked all my wiring and its all good!


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## NCSPARKEY (Nov 17, 2011)

NCSPARKEY said:


> Mwbc's ? Sorry don't understand that? It is a lighting circuit not feeding any old wiring just what I did. It does not trip unless the hh r on but dewireed the whole job and megga metered everything and all check 100%


 I got it now muilti wire branch circuit... No its one 14-2 romex on a 15 amp murray afci doing 4 hh on a dimmer in a living room going out to a bedroom doing 4 more hh and a ceiling fan. they can have them all on for for a day a two and have no problems. and other days it will trip four times in a row all on arc I know bc murray have lights to tell u afci or gfci


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

If the AFCI trips only when the lights are on try bypassing the dimmer and see if the breaker holds. I don't think it is another circuit, unless the neutrals are crossed.


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## rdr (Oct 25, 2009)

I'm still trying to figure out what an arch fault is....


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## NCSPARKEY (Nov 17, 2011)

Roger123 said:


> If the AFCI trips only when the lights are on try bypassing the dimmer and see if the breaker holds. I don't think it is another circuit, unless the neutrals are crossed.


 did that already tried reg switch still tripped! no neutrals crossed, the only thing is my new cir is in a two gang box with a old bx cir and the grounds are together... but like I said earlier i megged everything and it megged 2.2 gig perfect! its old work so no staples all snaked and it can go days with no probs. I'm lost I just ordered a new tester for afci going to try it but in the mean while look like an ass to the customer.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

I put receptacle outlets in conduit right under a panel and fed them with #12 thhn. I put the circuit on an arc fault 20 amp breaker. Then plugged in various loads of varying amperage. I tested with 4 major brands and they all tripped at some point or another, mostly with a brand new Kirby or a Whole Hog drill (mine) that I tested the windings with a megger and it tested just fine, no shorts, no nicks, no nothing but normal squirrel cage motor drill. I also meggered the receptacle circuit just to be sure, in order to eliminate any chance of buggering up the test results. Even a 100 % resistive load caused the breaker to trip , well under its rated trip point . Another very interesting find was that loading any brand to more than 50 % of its rated current increased the number of trips I would observe. 

My conclusion- we need to completely relearn how to only allow maybe one amp current flow per afci circuit, cause they don't work right, and only one or two local jurisdictions in the USA have been brave enough to go against the majority opinion of how great fantastic afci breakers are, so unless you work there, you are stuck. P.S. I call BS on anybody who claims that the combo afci breakers have eliminated false tripping issues. I was using combo's in my test. I did it to show a customer how come their afci's were tripping all time, cause they were giving me that "look"....... I didn't get my attitude on afci breakers just cause they cost more, I got it because they stink.


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## Bulldog1 (Oct 21, 2011)

macmikeman said:


> I put receptacle outlets in conduit right under a panel and fed them with #12 thhn. I put the circuit on an arc fault 20 amp breaker. Then plugged in various loads of varying amperage. I tested with 4 major brands and they all tripped at some point or another, mostly with a brand new Kirby or a Whole Hog drill (mine) that I tested the windings with a megger and it tested just fine, no shorts, no nicks, no nothing but normal squirrel cage motor drill. I also meggered the receptacle circuit just to be sure, in order to eliminate any chance of buggering up the test results. Even a 100 % resistive load caused the breaker to trip , well under its rated trip point . Another very interesting find was that loading any brand to more than 50 % of its rated current increased the number of trips I would observe.
> 
> My conclusion- we need to completely relearn how to only allow maybe one amp current flow per afci circuit, cause they don't work right, and only one or two local jurisdictions in the USA have been brave enough to go against the majority opinion of how great fantastic afci breakers are, so unless you work there, you are stuck. P.S. I call BS on anybody who claims that the combo afci breakers have eliminated false tripping issues. I was using combo's in my test. I did it to show a customer how come their afci's were tripping all time, cause they were giving me that "look"....... I didn't get my attitude on afci breakers just cause they cost more, I got it because they stink.



We put in so many this year I wouldn't want to guess at how many. Zero issues with tripping.


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## mbednarik (Oct 10, 2011)

NCSPARKEY said:


> are u saying that I have a problem on a diffrent circuit other then mine and my afci is picking it up? bc I checked all my wiring and its all good!


i had a siemens rep tell me just that. That there is no per say filter on each breaker, so they can pickup arcing from other circuits. I would be fine with them if there was an analyzer that i could diagnose with, not just test to see if they work.


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## NCSPARKEY (Nov 17, 2011)

macmikeman said:


> I put receptacle outlets in conduit right under a panel and fed them with #12 thhn. I put the circuit on an arc fault 20 amp breaker. Then plugged in various loads of varying amperage. I tested with 4 major brands and they all tripped at some point or another, mostly with a brand new Kirby or a Whole Hog drill (mine) that I tested the windings with a megger and it tested just fine, no shorts, no nicks, no nothing but normal squirrel cage motor drill. I also meggered the receptacle circuit just to be sure, in order to eliminate any chance of buggering up the test results. Even a 100 % resistive load caused the breaker to trip , well under its rated trip point . Another very interesting find was that loading any brand to more than 50 % of its rated current increased the number of trips I would observe.
> 
> My conclusion- we need to completely relearn how to only allow maybe one amp current flow per afci circuit, cause they don't work right, and only one or two local jurisdictions in the USA have been brave enough to go against the majority opinion of how great fantastic afci breakers are, so unless you work there, you are stuck. P.S. I call BS on anybody who claims that the combo afci breakers have eliminated false tripping issues. I was using combo's in my test. I did it to show a customer how come their afci's were tripping all time, cause they were giving me that "look"....... I didn't get my attitude on afci breakers just cause they cost more, I got it because they stink.


Wow! I just don't understand this! I do use these all the time and this is the first time having a problem! I did think for a min I might of nicked a wire or clamp issue but no I even megged all the bulbs! I'm thinking now maybe the tp's in the high hat or someone was telling me it could be bad power coming in, or even RF signals


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

mbednarik said:


> i had a siemens rep tell me just that. That there is no per say filter on each breaker, so they can pickup arcing from other circuits. I would be fine with them if there was an analyzer that i could diagnose with, not just test to see if they work.



Seimens has one for sale, but I think its a hoax to cover up for the BS they push. There were definitely zero arcing issues on the receptacle test outlet I made. But the breakers tripped.


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## NCSPARKEY (Nov 17, 2011)

Bulldog1 said:


> We put in so many this year I wouldn't want to guess at how many. Zero issues with tripping.


As did I and prob free! but ive checked everything i did and found no prob what so ever! guess I just got to wait until my new $ 300 tester comes in! and in the mean while drop off a lamp to my customer


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

NCSPARKEY said:


> did that already tried reg switch still tripped! no neutrals crossed, the only thing is my new cir is in a two gang box with a old bx cir and the grounds are together... but like I said earlier i megged everything and it megged 2.2 gig perfect! its old work so no staples all snaked and it can go days with no probs. I'm lost I just ordered a new tester for afci going to try it but in the mean while look like an ass to the customer.


Have you tried a new AFCI breaker? Did you also bypass the fan motor? I also have not had any problems with these breakers.


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## NCSPARKEY (Nov 17, 2011)

Roger123 said:


> Have you tried a new AFCI breaker? Did you also bypass the fan motor? I also have not had any problems with these breakers.


Yes tried new breaker and as far as the fan its not in yet have a temp on it


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

NCSPARKEY said:


> have a temp on it


Hmm, if that light has been in your truck/van for awhile, you might want to look at it.


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## NCSPARKEY (Nov 17, 2011)

Roger123 said:


> Hmm, if that light has been in your truck/van for awhile, you might want to look at it.


All material including the wire was brand new from the supply house that morning


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

There is one very important fact you need to know about afci that can help you trouble shoot. The afci needs to see about 3 amps before it will trip on arc fault. 

With this knowledge you need to separate the circuit in the middle and see what is causing the problem. Remember you need to have a constant source of 3 amps or more that you know will not trip the afci.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

NCSPARKEY said:


> did that already tried reg switch still tripped! no neutrals crossed, the only thing is my new cir is in a two gang box with a old bx cir and the grounds are together... .


I haven't installed a single AFCI breaker but, the comment about mixing your circuit in a box with an existing circuit and connecting the grounds together needs a bit more explanation. Is there a reason you connected the grounds together?


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Bulldog1 said:


> We put in so many this year I wouldn't want to guess at how many. Zero issues with tripping.


 
Same here. We installed at least a couple hunded last year, and only had one call back for tripping. I found that was a grounding conductor touching a grounded conductor inside a receptacle outlet. Zero issues with that one ever since.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

To the op, cut the grounds off your dimmers.


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## Bulldog1 (Oct 21, 2011)

If all else fails try a different brand arc falt for kicks and giggles. Murray sucks.....


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## ohiosparky99 (Nov 12, 2009)

Did you disconnect the neutral and ground at the panel and test between those?? I know you said you meggered the circuit, just be sure test between the ground and neutral, a lot of the times it's between those wires


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## NCSPARKEY (Nov 17, 2011)

jrannis said:


> I haven't installed a single AFCI breaker but, the comment about mixing your circuit in a box with an existing circuit and connecting the grounds together needs a bit more explanation. Is there a reason you connected the grounds together?


Well bc my new wire is romex and the old circuit is bx so there is no way around the grounds


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## NCSPARKEY (Nov 17, 2011)

Bulldog1 said:


> If all else fails try a different brand arc falt for kicks and giggles. Murray sucks.....


I'm going there this morn and trying that


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## NCSPARKEY (Nov 17, 2011)

ohiosparky99 said:


> Did you disconnect the neutral and ground at the panel and test between those?? I know you said you meggered the circuit, just be sure test between the ground and neutral, a lot of the times it's between those wires


Yea we did and also broke it in the mid point and megged back to the panel and each fix perfect test!


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## NCSPARKEY (Nov 17, 2011)

mcclary's electrical said:


> To the op, cut the grounds off your dimmers.


The box is still bonded by old bx cir also tried reg sw and it still happend


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

Dennis Alwon said:


> There is one very important fact you need to know about afci that can help you trouble shoot. The afci needs to see about 3 amps before it will trip on arc fault.
> 
> With this knowledge you need to separate the circuit in the middle and see what is causing the problem. Remember you need to have a constant source of 3 amps or more that you know will not trip the afci.


 
Hmm, is this true with all manufactures?


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

NCSPARKEY said:


> I'm going there this morn and trying that


Well let us know the results, cause this is a strange one.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

NCSPARKEY said:


> The box is still bonded by old bx cir also tried reg sw and it still happend


 

Whooaaaa, you said your circuit didn't mix with old circuit anywhere. Whatch you talkin bout Willis?


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Whooaaaa, you said your circuit didn't mix with old circuit anywhere. Whatch you talkin bout Willis?


Are you thinking there is current on the grounds?


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Roger123 said:


> Are you thinking there is current on the grounds?


 
Many solid state dimmers are allowed to leak a small amount through the ground. But now he said he's using old BX, so his circuit is mixed with old circuit somewhere.


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## ohiosparky99 (Nov 12, 2009)

Is he saying the panel is bonded by old BX??


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## NCSPARKEY (Nov 17, 2011)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Many solid state dimmers are allowed to leak a small amount through the ground. But now he said he's using old BX, so his circuit is mixed with old circuit somewhere.


The new romex circuit is in the same two gang box as an nc circuit. Nothing is tied together except the grounds bc there is no way u cane and they together in the main panel anyway.


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## NCSPARKEY (Nov 17, 2011)

ohiosparky99 said:


> Is he saying the panel is bonded by old BX??


No the two gang box that the dimmer is in also has a old bx circuit that is by itself. It is a drop back switch leg so I don't even have natural in the two gang box. I'm on the job right opened everything for one last time and its all perfect! Changed the breaker from Murray to cutler hammer see what happens. Also note it seems a get the call almost around the same time in the evening 6 pm when it does trip.


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## NCSPARKEY (Nov 17, 2011)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Many solid state dimmers are allowed to leak a small amount through the ground. But now he said he's using old BX, so his circuit is mixed with old circuit somewhere.


Just grounds no natural or hot can't get around the grounds


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## muck (Jun 30, 2008)

NCSPARKEY said:


> Hello everyone,
> I did a small job in a older house first time using arc fault on a home that was not completely wired by me. The job was 8 high hats a ceiling fan and two dimmers. After I left the job customer called me and said a vacuum plugged in on a older circuit tripped my circuit. So I go back and find when the vac starts up I pull 20 amps on the water ground so right away I call utility comp for bad natural. They did find it on the pole. Two days later they call again it tripped out 4 times in a row! So we go back maga test our circuit to make sure we didn't have a nicked wires and test was perfect! So I decide to replace the breaker thinking maybe got a bad one. Two days later it tripped again. So now we check all bulbs and splices in the cans and everything was fine! So today it tripped again and now I'm pissed and look pretty stupid to the customer! So I decide to change another circuit in the house to arc fault to see if that trips to and it did! They both went! So now my ? Is if there is a problem on a another circuit in the house is my breaker picking it up? Or maybe something else is triggering it? I know when I use to have a nextel phone and I pushed the talk button near a gfci it trip. Does anyone know anything about this problem?


Did you allow space around the AFCI breaker? They will trip if there is heat build up from other breakers. I always leave a open space on either side of AFCI breakers. I also try to keep the wire length for the circuit less that 100 feet. Have never (knock on wood) had a problem to date since I started doing those two things. Prior to that, I was having problems with tripping. Good luck and Merry Christmas.


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## muck (Jun 30, 2008)

NCSPARKEY said:


> Hello everyone,
> I did a small job in a older house first time using arc fault on a home that was not completely wired by me. The job was 8 high hats a ceiling fan and two dimmers. After I left the job customer called me and said a vacuum plugged in on a older circuit tripped my circuit. So I go back and find when the vac starts up I pull 20 amps on the water ground so right away I call utility comp for bad natural. They did find it on the pole. Two days later they call again it tripped out 4 times in a row! So we go back maga test our circuit to make sure we didn't have a nicked wires and test was perfect! So I decide to replace the breaker thinking maybe got a bad one. Two days later it tripped again. So now we check all bulbs and splices in the cans and everything was fine! So today it tripped again and now I'm pissed and look pretty stupid to the customer! So I decide to change another circuit in the house to arc fault to see if that trips to and it did! They both went! So now my ? Is if there is a problem on a another circuit in the house is my breaker picking it up? Or maybe something else is triggering it? I know when I use to have a nextel phone and I pushed the talk button near a gfci it trip. Does anyone know anything about this problem?


Did you allow space around the AFCI breaker? They will trip if there is heat build up from other breakers. I always leave a open space on either side of AFCI breakers. I also try to keep the wire length for the circuit less that 100 feet. Have never (knock on wood) had a problem to date since I started doing those two things. Prior to that, I was having problems with tripping. Good luck and Merry Christmas.


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## NCSPARKEY (Nov 17, 2011)

muck said:


> Did you allow space around the AFCI breaker? They will trip if there is heat build up from other breakers. I always leave a open space on either side of AFCI breakers. I also try to keep the wire length for the circuit less that 100 feet. Have never (knock on wood) had a problem to date since I started doing those two things. Prior to that, I was having problems with tripping. Good luck and Merry Christmas.


Thanx and merry Christmas to you to


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

muck said:


> Did you allow space around the AFCI breaker? They will trip if there is heat build up from other breakers. I always leave a open space on either side of AFCI breakers.


That has never been an issue and I have had 5 or 6 afci together in one panel.


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## Bulldog1 (Oct 21, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> That has never been an issue and I have had 5 or 6 afci together in one panel.



We did a condo building where arc faults were put on every 120V circuit. It was on the plans so we did it. :blink:


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## varmit (Apr 19, 2009)

From what you have described, I would guess that somewhere in the old existing wiring there is something causing current flow on the grounding conductor- the BX jacket. This current on the grounding conductor is making it's way back to the panel and your AFCI is picking up this relative current difference between the hot and neutral. Your work is probably fine, But you have inherited someone else's problem. An occasional problem is the toughest to find and usually easy to fix.

I would, if you can get paid for this: 
(A) Check for good and proper grounding of the service. 
(B) Check to see if there is any potential between any grounding conductors and any grounded (neutral) conductors. 
(C) Make sure that there are no loose BX jacket connections at the service.
(D) Make sure that there are no loose neutral connections. 
(E) Inspect the poco service connections.


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## NCSPARKEY (Nov 17, 2011)

varmit said:


> From what you have described, I would guess that somewhere in the old existing wiring there is something causing current flow on the grounding conductor- the BX jacket. This current on the grounding conductor is making it's way back to the panel and your AFCI is picking up this relative current difference between the hot and neutral. Your work is probably fine, But you have inherited someone else's problem. An occasional problem is the toughest to find and usually easy to fix.
> 
> I would, if you can get paid for this:
> (A) Check for good and proper grounding of the service.
> ...


Thank you for that info. We were on the job today yes on Sunday! Not to happy about that! But I'm trying everything in my power to save face with the customer! So today I pulled every high hat I put in and check every splice all is perfect! I even did them all over! I know it was a waste of time bc my megga test was perfect! But just wanted to make sure it wasn't anything we did I also swapped the breaker for cutler hammer. They just call me and said they were for 30 mins and when there son plugged in his laptop it blew! Mind you No receptacles r on my ne afci... So she went down and reset the afci and when the went to turn the laptop on it blew again! So they left the comp off and the lights have been on now for over an hour. I'm so done with this! We ordered the new afci tester and have to wait 2 weeks for it guess when it comes I'm going to have check the whole house and everything that plugs in! Talk about a lossing ur shirt on a job! I'm married to this house till I find the problem!


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## NCSPARKEY (Nov 17, 2011)

varmit said:


> From what you have described, I would guess that somewhere in the old existing wiring there is something causing current flow on the grounding conductor- the BX jacket. This current on the grounding conductor is making it's way back to the panel and your AFCI is picking up this relative current difference between the hot and neutral. Your work is probably fine, But you have inherited someone else's problem. An occasional problem is the toughest to find and usually easy to fix.
> 
> I would, if you can get paid for this:
> (A) Check for good and proper grounding of the service.
> ...


Does vfd tech stand for valley stream FD?


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## Bulldog1 (Oct 21, 2011)

NCSPARKEY said:


> Thank you for that info. We were on the job today yes on Sunday! Not to happy about that! But I'm trying everything in my power to save face with the customer! So today I pulled every high hat I put in and check every splice all is perfect! I even did them all over! I know it was a waste of time bc my megga test was perfect! But just wanted to make sure it wasn't anything we did I also swapped the breaker for cutler hammer. They just call me and said they were for 30 mins and when there son plugged in his laptop it blew! Mind you No receptacles r on my ne afci... So she went down and reset the afci and when the went to turn the laptop on it blew again! So they left the comp off and the lights have been on now for over an hour. I'm so done with this! We ordered the new afci tester and have to wait 2 weeks for it guess when it comes I'm going to have check the whole house and everything that plugs in! Talk about a lossing ur shirt on a job! I'm married to this house till I find the problem!



Maybe the laptop is the issue?


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## ohiosparky99 (Nov 12, 2009)

As bad as I hate to say this and I know it opens you up to liability, but pull the darn thing out and put in a standard breaker, I know I'll catch hell for saying that, but after 10 return trips you gotta do something


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## Bulldog1 (Oct 21, 2011)

ohiosparky99 said:


> As bad as I hate to say this and I know it opens you up to liability, but pull the darn thing out and put in a standard breaker, I know I'll catch hell for saying that, but after 10 return trips you gotta do something



Yes you do and it is fix the problem. I think it could be something the homeowner is plugging in.


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## noarcflash (Sep 14, 2011)

Any motor will cause arcs across the brushes. I have a 40 yo electric drill from my grandfather, with the metal case. and you can see the arcing inside while it's running. It's trips the arc fault breaker every time.


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## NCSPARKEY (Nov 17, 2011)

ohiosparky99 said:


> As bad as I hate to say this and I know it opens you up to liability, but pull the darn thing out and put in a standard breaker, I know I'll catch hell for saying that, but after 10 return trips you gotta do something


Trust me thought about it but my partner and do everything by the book and will go back 10 more times bf we do that! At this point the whole job is a loss so might as well keep going until we find it!


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## NCSPARKEY (Nov 17, 2011)

Bulldog1 said:


> Maybe the laptop is the issue?


Could be one of them but they have been there doing nothing and its gone out! I also came across a old tube tv in a bedroom that has a buzz to it even when its off. But no one has really answerd my ? Can somthing plugged in to a receptacle that has nothing to do with my afci trip it? I just ordered the new afci tester I'm going thu the whole house when it comes in!


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

1. Did you megger the circuit?
2. Take the AFCI and but a single receptacle on it at the panel see if it trips from the vacuum. Show this to the customer.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

NCSPARKEY said:


> But no one has really answerd my ? Can somthing plugged in to a receptacle that has nothing to do with my afci trip it?


Logically no is the answer but I have seen some weird stuff. I would find everything that is on this circuit-- I mean everything. If it happens at a certain time of day- that can be a clue. If no one is home all day and it is on and then trips I would bet it is something that is being plugged in.


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## NCSPARKEY (Nov 17, 2011)

brian john said:


> 1. Did you megger the circuit?
> 2. Take the AFCI and but a single receptacle on it at the panel see if it trips from the vacuum. Show this to the customer.


I did megger the circuit and all the wires individualy on the whole circuit and got 2.2gig to me that's perfect! Also the vac does not need to be on it can trip out on its own or go a day or two without tripping


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Are you saying when you put another circuit on an AFCI that both separate AFCI circuits tripped at the same time? 

-John


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## NCSPARKEY (Nov 17, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Logically no is the answer but I have seen some weird stuff. I would find everything that is on this circuit-- I mean everything. If it happens at a certain time of day- that can be a clue. If no one is home all day and it is on and then trips I would bet it is something that is being plugged in.


The only thing on this circuit is what I did. 8 hh 1 fan 2 dimmers and 1 switch checked it all twice and nothing is wrong! The only thing I can think is maybe one of the tp's in the hh's????


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## NCSPARKEY (Nov 17, 2011)

NCSPARKEY said:


> The only thing on this circuit is what I did. 8 hh 1 fan 2 dimmers and 1 switch checked it all twice and nothing is wrong! The only thing I can think is maybe one of the tp's in the hh's????


But like I said they have gone two days with no prob and some days it trips often


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

NCSPARKEY said:


> The only thing on this circuit is what I did. 8 hh 1 fan 2 dimmers and 1 switch checked it all twice and nothing is wrong! The only thing I can think is maybe one of the tp's in the hh's????


 Well what about staples behind the sheetrock, or was this a retro job?


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## ohiosparky99 (Nov 12, 2009)

Not saying that it can't, but installed tons of these with can lights, never had a problem with the thermal cut-out, i would try what BrianJohn suggested


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

My bet is the fan. I apologize for not having read the entire thread but have you disconnected the fan and see what happens.


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*Out*

Outside devices when it rains ?


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## NCSPARKEY (Nov 17, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> My bet is the fan. I apologize for not having read the entire thread but have you disconnected the fan and see what happens.


Not installed yet got a temp on it


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## NCSPARKEY (Nov 17, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Well what about staples behind the sheetrock, or was this a retro job?


Retro no staples at all


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## NCSPARKEY (Nov 17, 2011)

big john said:


> are you saying when you put another circuit on an afci that both separate afci circuits tripped at the same time?
> 
> -john


yes!


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## varmit (Apr 19, 2009)

NCSPARKEY said:


> Does vfd tech stand for valley stream FD?


No, I was trying to think of a screen name when I first signed on, I do a lot of Variable Frequency Drive work. So, the name.

Thinking about this problem a little more, It seems that there could be a hot to ground load somewhere in the house, this load, taking the path of least resistance, is using your new wiring as a return path. The current flow through your new cable, COULD possibly induce enough harmonic noise, in your circuit to cause an AFCI to trip.

Ways to test this, none ideal:
(A) Turn off everything in the house except your new circuit.
OR
(B) Disconnect your new ground wires anywhere they attach to any common ground to the old wiring or panel.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Have you tried a different brand of AFCIs? Have you ever managed to produce a trip or is it always the H/Os?

-John


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## NCSPARKEY (Nov 17, 2011)

varmit said:


> No, I was trying to think of a screen name when I first signed on, I do a lot of Variable Frequency Drive work. So, the name.
> 
> Thinking about this problem a little more, It seems that there could be a hot to ground load somewhere in the house, this load, taking the path of least resistance, is using your new wiring as a return path. The current flow through your new cable, COULD possibly induce enough harmonic noise, in your circuit to cause an AFCI to trip.
> 
> ...


I'm on the phone with partner as we speak and he kinda said the same thing. he wants to pull our circuit out of the panel and meter between ground and the natural and find the circuit that is hitching a ride down our ground


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## NCSPARKEY (Nov 17, 2011)

Big John said:


> Have you tried a different brand of AFCIs? Have you ever managed to produce a trip or is it always the H/Os?
> 
> -John


 I was able to onece after the hh were on for 30 mins they tripped out 4 times in row then cleared and stayed on for two days it seems they like to trip around 5 or 6 pm today after i pulled every can and put in a cutler hammer afci I had them on for hour and nothing! then got the phone call at 5 pm it tripped again!


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## NCSPARKEY (Nov 17, 2011)

NCSPARKEY said:


> yes!


 And they were both on separate phases


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

I know the AFCIs are saying "arcing fault" but I wouldn't trust that. I would swap in some GFCI breakers temporarily. If they hold, then at least you can be certain of what kind of fault it _*isn't.*_

-John


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## NCSPARKEY (Nov 17, 2011)

Big John said:


> I know the AFCIs are saying "arcing fault" but I wouldn't trust that. I would swap in some GFCI breakers temporarily. If they hold, then at least you can be certain of what kind of fault it _*isn't.*_
> 
> -John


 Yea that is a good idea. I'm really starting to think there is prob somewhere else. this house has real old bx all dried up insulation it just sux I have to find it just bc I did a small hh job!


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## varmit (Apr 19, 2009)

Other thoughts:

Assuming that the circuit current draw is low, if you have a Fluke type meter that has an AC miliamp scale, check for current differential between the hot and neutral of your circuit. If i am not mistaken, a 15 ma differential will trip an AFCI. Be sure to use the 10 amp scale first, to avoid possible meter damage. You may need to replace the AFCI with a standard breaker for this test. Also, check for current on your circuit ground wire.

Are you using any CFL in your lighting? Any electronic ballast, computer, TV cable box or any high speed switching device can cause problems, if they are not functioning properly, on an AFCI.


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## varmit (Apr 19, 2009)

I reread your earlier post. You say that you megged this and it reads 2.2 meg? That is a short. The usual go-no go value on a 230 VAC circuit is around 20-25 meg on a 1000 volt megger..


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## NCSPARKEY (Nov 17, 2011)

varmit said:


> Other thoughts:
> 
> Assuming that the circuit current draw is low, if you have a Fluke type meter that has an AC miliamp scale, check for current differential between the hot and neutral of your circuit. If i am not mistaken, a 15 ma differential will trip an AFCI. Be sure to use the 10 amp scale first, to avoid possible meter damage. You may need to replace the AFCI with a standard breaker for this test. Also, check for current on your circuit ground wire.
> 
> Are you using any CFL in your lighting? Any electronic ballast, computer, TV cable box or any high speed switching device can cause problems, if they are not functioning properly, on an AFCI.


No cfl's I'm using juno IC hh with par 90's... as far as the other stuff my new circuit is only doing my lighting no receptacles at all... unless ur saying my afci can pick other circuits problems? don't know if saw that yesterday I went back and put another circuit on a afci breaker and the both tripped and they were not on the same phase


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## buddhakii (Jan 13, 2011)

varmit said:


> I reread your earlier post. You say that you megged this and it reads 2.2 meg? That is a short. The usual go-no go value on a 230 VAC circuit is around 20-25 meg on a 1000 volt megger..


Reread post 62 again. 2.2 gigs.


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## NCSPARKEY (Nov 17, 2011)

varmit said:


> I reread your earlier post. You say that you megged this and it reads 2.2 meg? That is a short. The usual go-no go value on a 230 VAC circuit is around 20-25 meg on a 1000 volt megger..


That test was hot and natural to ground and I meant 2.2 gig sorry


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

NCSPARKEY said:


> I was able to onece after the hh were on for 30 mins they tripped out 4 times in row then cleared and stayed on for two days it seems they like to trip around 5 or 6 pm today after i pulled every can and put in a cutler hammer afci I had them on for hour and nothing! then got the phone call at 5 pm it tripped again!


So what I have so far is that the son comes home at 5PM, plugs in his laptop and the AFCI trips...


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## Teaspoon (Jan 10, 2009)

jrannis said:


> So what I have so far is that the son comes home at 5PM, plugs in his laptop and the AFCI trips...


I would look into the laptop issue farther.
Could be a problem with laptop , not circuit.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Teaspoon said:


> I would look into the laptop issue farther.
> Could be a problem with laptop , not circuit.


He said a vacuum does it to.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

NCSPARKEY said:


> No the two gang box that the dimmer is in also has a old bx circuit that is by itself. It is a drop back switch leg so I don't even have natural in the two gang box. I'm on the job right opened everything for one last time and its all perfect! Changed the breaker from Murray to cutler hammer see what happens. Also note it seems a get the call almost around the same time in the evening 6 pm when it does trip.


Its just a guess but could the trips be from a neighboring circuit or house with a faulty garage door opener? Had a similar issue awhile back, door opener was faulty and was causing the AFCI breaker to trip next to it.:laughing:


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## NCSPARKEY (Nov 17, 2011)

NCSPARKEY said:


> Hello everyone,
> I did a small job in a older house first time using arc fault on a home that was not completely wired by me. The job was 8 high hats a ceiling fan and two dimmers. After I left the job customer called me and said a vacuum plugged in on a older circuit tripped my circuit. So I go back and find when the vac starts up I pull 20 amps on the water ground so right away I call utility comp for bad natural. They did find it on the pole. Two days later they call again it tripped out 4 times in a row! So we go back maga test our circuit to make sure we didn't have a nicked wires and test was perfect! So I decide to replace the breaker thinking maybe got a bad one. Two days later it tripped again. So now we check all bulbs and splices in the cans and everything was fine! So today it tripped again and now I'm pissed and look pretty stupid to the customer! So I decide to change another circuit in the house to arc fault to see if that trips to and it did! They both went! So now my ? Is if there is a problem on a another circuit in the house is my breaker picking it up? Or maybe something else is triggering it? I know when I use to have a nextel phone and I pushed the talk button near a gfci it trip. Does anyone know anything about this problem?


Update on the problem!
So after 13 visits to the house and checking all my work 3 times magger test and all! My new $ 500.00 tester found the problem in 20 mins! It was in fact a bad power supply for a laptop! She did tell me at one point that it was unplugged but is was from the laptop itself! Still plugged in the wall! The trip was hit or miss! Most of the time when I returned to the job it would not trip others it would trip 4 times in a row! This power supply plugged in to any receptacle on the same phase would trip it as soon as it got a load over 5 amps on my cir. On phase B it would bring it close to the trip point but not do it unless more load was put on the cir! Bottem line is yes a faulty device can and will trip a afci that is plugged into a non afci cir! So now my next step is call Murray Monday morn and start a war! I want the all the time spent on the job paid bye them and tester for free! Merry Christmas to all! Hope this info helps u all trouble shoot any problem u may have! I think the concept of afci' are grate! But do think they need more improvement! U shoud not pick problems on other circuits!


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## noarcflash (Sep 14, 2011)

what kind of a test did you use? and please explain how you isolated the problem.

My lap top power supply arcs every time I pull the plug.


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

NCSPARKEY said:


> Bottem line is yes a faulty device can and will trip a afci that is plugged into a non afci cir!


I keep running this incident through my head and can't see how? The only thing common here is the neutral bar since it is not a MWBC.


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## NCSPARKEY (Nov 17, 2011)

Roger123 said:


> I keep running this incident through my head and can't see how? The only thing common here is the neutral bar since it is not a MWBC.


I'm not kidding! I'm not happy at all about this! But I'm telling you that no matter what receptacle I plug in my acfci will trip! Take the power supply out of play and my cir is 100%!


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

_NCSparky, _I don't think anyone is doubting your word, I know I'm reading it and doubting the operation of the AFCIs. 

It's very possible the power-supply is the cause of the trips, but I suspect that there's nothing wrong with the supply and the breakers are tripping improperly, so I would also like to hear more about how you isolated it.

-John


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

NCSPARKEY said:


> I'm not kidding! I'm not happy at all about this! But I'm telling you that no matter what receptacle I plug in my acfci will trip! Take the power supply out of play and my cir is 100%!


Well then do you think that current is backfeeding into the said AFCI through the neutral bar?


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

Big John said:


> _NCSparky, _I don't think anyone is doubting your word, I know I'm reading it and doubting the operation of the AFCIs.
> 
> It's very possible the power-supply is the cause of the trips, but I suspect that there's nothing wrong with the supply and the breakers are tripping improperly, so I would also like to hear more about how you isolated it.
> 
> -John


Me too! Really seems odd.


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## NCSPARKEY (Nov 17, 2011)

Roger123 said:


> Me too! Really seems odd.


The way we found is the afci tester. One part of it hooks into the panel u take the load of the breaker and hook it to the the tester then from the tester to the breaker. The other half of the tester is a hand held device that has three sets of led meters on it. The first set tells u how many amps ur pulling the second set tells u likely gf to trip and the third tells u likely af to trip. As soon as week hooked it up and turned it on the likely for a af trip was half way. Then as soon as we turned our new load on it spike to af trip! Then we turned off each breaker until it went away! Then start to unplug everything thing on that circuit as I found the power supply in the kitchen that she told me she unplugged the other day it was under the kitchen table still plugged in the receptacle! As soon as I unplugged it the tester went clear! So then I was Lil pissed and I'm thinking murry owes me for about 12 service calls and a 500 tester! I even went as far as to try it farther away from the panel and it still tripped! Basically if u plug it in on the same phase it trips right away! If u plug it in on the other phase it needs a Lil more of load to trip it! Any my anger is that it had nothing to do with my circuit at all and I lost my shirt on this job! I think they need to go back to the drawing board with the afci or at least give us some kinda filter to block noise from other circuits! Sorry it took so long to get back to u guys I was at a Christmas party when I was posting last night and the drinks were kicking in.


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## noarcflash (Sep 14, 2011)

no matter how you look at it, the entire "leg" is connected through the buss bar. But it should be able to isolate the load side of the arc fault breaker.

But how is it picking up the other leg ? maybe through a 240volt device, or the POT ?

still a lousy design breaker.


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## ohiosparky99 (Nov 12, 2009)

Maybe Murray owes you, I don't know, But what about the lying homeowner??
You should bill her


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## NCSPARKEY (Nov 17, 2011)

ohiosparky99 said:


> Maybe Murray owes you, I don't know, But what about the lying homeowner??
> You should bill her


I'm not going to bill her bc there **** breaker picks up problems with things plugged into a circuit that has noting to do with my work and I can't even explain to her why its doing that!


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

OK NCSPARKEY, I may be starting to understand this. According to wikipedia " Combination type AFCIs trip on 5 amperes of series arcing." So this AFCI may have been reading something less when the power source was connected to another circuit, but when connected to the AFCI Circuit it may have read 5amps or better and opened the circuit right away. So that may conclude that this breaker was reading arcing through the phase bus bar which was caused by another circuit. If that is the case it is not good news!


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

BTW, what type of tester did you buy?


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## NCSPARKEY (Nov 17, 2011)

Roger123 said:


> OK NCSPARKEY, I may be starting to understand this. According to wikipedia " Combination type AFCIs trip on 5 amperes of series arcing." So this AFCI may have been reading something less when the power source was connected to another circuit, but when connected to the AFCI Circuit it may have read 5amps or better and opened the circuit right away. So that may conclude that this breaker was reading arcing through the phase bus bar which was caused by another circuit. If that is the case it is not good news!


No its not! I'm having arc fault contracts made up stating that these code required breakers can and will pick up other problems in the home and will have add cost to any job to trouble shoot!


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## NCSPARKEY (Nov 17, 2011)

Roger123 said:


> BTW, what type of tester did you buy?


Siemens they are the only one who makes it and its 500.00


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## NCSPARKEY (Nov 17, 2011)

Roger123 said:


> OK NCSPARKEY, I may be starting to understand this. According to wikipedia " Combination type AFCIs trip on 5 amperes of series arcing." So this AFCI may have been reading something less when the power source was connected to another circuit, but when connected to the AFCI Circuit it may have read 5amps or better and opened the circuit right away. So that may conclude that this breaker was reading arcing through the phase bus bar which was caused by another circuit. If that is the case it is not good news!


The power source is never plugged into the afci bc its only protecting my new high hats no receptacles are on the afci!


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## NCSPARKEY (Nov 17, 2011)

NCSPARKEY said:


> Siemens they are the only one who makes it and its 500.00


So now to do job u must have a $ 700.00 megger meter and a $ 500.00 afci tester and people want us to work cheaper!


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Roger123 said:


> BTW, what type of tester did you buy?


 I think he has the Siemens Intelli-Arc.

I still think it's a bogus trip, but that sounds like a good investment if someone is gonna be troubleshooting a lot of AFCI circuits.

-John


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## noarcflash (Sep 14, 2011)

Can you provide a link for the meter you used.... please.
trouble shooting is taking on a whole new meaning.


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## NCSPARKEY (Nov 17, 2011)

noarcflash said:


> Can you provide a link for the meter you used.... please.
> trouble shooting is taking on a whole new meaning.


 http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...8cW8Ag&usg=AFQjCNEi0KFcFqAdgu9sbj99Y1z9aXlqow
Yeah ur not kidding!


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## jefft110 (Jul 7, 2010)

noarcflash said:


> Can you provide a link for the meter you used.... please.
> trouble shooting is taking on a whole new meaning.


You can rent them too.


http://www.overstock4electricians.com/catalog/item/7466194/7836322.htm


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## NCSPARKEY (Nov 17, 2011)

Big John said:


> I think he has the Siemens Intelli-Arc.
> 
> I still think it's a bogus trip, but that sounds like a good investment if someone is gonna be troubleshooting a lot of AFCI circuits.
> 
> -John


 What do you mean by bogus? And anyone who installs these breakers is going to need this tester! I'm sure I'm not the first one to come across this problem and I'm sure I wont be the last!


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

NCSPARKEY said:


> What do you mean by bogus...?


 I don't believe for a minute there was an arcing fault anywhere in that house. 

I think the electronics in that switching power supply just happened to piss off these stupid breakers into thinking there was an "arc signature." 

I'm still not convinced AFCIs are worth the cardboard they ship them in.

-John


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## NCSPARKEY (Nov 17, 2011)

Big John said:


> I don't believe for a minute there was an arcing fault anywhere in that house.
> 
> I think the electronics in that switching power supply just happened to piss off these stupid breakers into thinking there was an "arc signature."
> 
> ...


Lol! I agree however I did find out it that the power supply was a replacement and it was a knock off with no ul. Still don't think the breaker should of picked it up!


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

Big John said:


> I think the electronics in that switching power supply just happened to piss off these stupid breakers into thinking there was an "arc signature."
> 
> 
> 
> -John


How do you think that happen? The power supply was connected to another circuit.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Roger123 said:


> OK NCSPARKEY, I may be starting to understand this. According to wikipedia " Combination type AFCIs trip on 5 amperes of series arcing." So this AFCI may have been reading something less when the power source was connected to another circuit, but when connected to the AFCI Circuit it may have read 5amps or better and opened the circuit right away. So that may conclude that this breaker was reading arcing through the phase bus bar which was caused by another circuit. If that is the case it is not good news!


I think its possible that a loose splice in a poco transformer 4 miles up the road can cause the afci breakers to start tripping. The legal issues that are going to come out of somebody proving that above statement is going to cause a tidal wave of lawsuits if ever it came to light.


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## NCSPARKEY (Nov 17, 2011)

NCSPARKEY said:


> Hello everyone,
> I did a small job in a older house first time using arc fault on a home that was not completely wired by me. The job was 8 high hats a ceiling fan and two dimmers. After I left the job customer called me and said a vacuum plugged in on a older circuit tripped my circuit. So I go back and find when the vac starts up I pull 20 amps on the water ground so right away I call utility comp for bad natural. They did find it on the pole. Two days later they call again it tripped out 4 times in a row! So we go back maga test our circuit to make sure we didn't have a nicked wires and test was perfect! So I decide to replace the breaker thinking maybe got a bad one. Two days later it tripped again. So now we check all bulbs and splices in the cans and everything was fine! So today it tripped again and now I'm pissed and look pretty stupid to the customer! So I decide to change another circuit in the house to arc fault to see if that trips to and it did! They both went! So now my ? Is if there is a problem on a another circuit in the house is my breaker picking it up? Or maybe something else is triggering it? I know when I use to have a nextel phone and I pushed the talk button near a gfci it trip. Does anyone know anything about this problem?


Six days no trip's.... Can't wait to hear from Murray tech support to see what their reason for this problem I had is!


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## jimmertee (Jun 9, 2011)

*Frequency on arc faults*

Sparky, we have battled Alot of the same problems with these new combination style arc faults. We work with Eaton products and the support we get all the way from the sales rep to the engineers who design these breakers in Pittsburgh, PA is unreal. What we have found there alot of products that emulate an arc frequency trip. We have had problems with the following the past 

- Back stabbing receptacles and switches,- dimmers,-furnace circuit board,-bad lamp cords, -light fixtures,-plasma screen / flat screen TV's, -Vacuum cleaners,-paper shredder-old surge strips.
Some of these problems are just as simple as giving them a surge trap to plug in front of what product they are using. Probably 98% of the time it is not the wiring you installed. It's something the homeowner is using and it does not have to be on that particular circuit. Have them pay attention to what they do to make the breaker trip.


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## NCSPARKEY (Nov 17, 2011)

jimmertee said:


> Sparky, we have battled Alot of the same problems with these new combination style arc faults. We work with Eaton products and the support we get all the way from the sales rep to the engineers who design these breakers in Pittsburgh, PA is unreal. What we have found there alot of products that emulate an arc frequency trip. We have had problems with the following the past
> 
> - Back stabbing receptacles and switches,- dimmers,-furnace circuit board,-bad lamp cords, -light fixtures,-plasma screen / flat screen TV's, -Vacuum cleaners,-paper shredder-old surge strips.
> Some of these problems are just as simple as giving them a surge trap to plug in front of what product they are using. Probably 98% of the time it is not the wiring you installed. It's something the homeowner is using and it does not have to be on that particular circuit. Have them pay attention to what they do to make the breaker trip.


Thanx for that info! I just find it very unfair to us the contractor to have to chase these probe! I have installed a lot of these breakers in the past and never had a problem! This one job drove me nuts! We found in no time with the new arc fault tester but still lost way to much time on the job! Over something that had nothing to do with my work or circuit!


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## jimmertee (Jun 9, 2011)

What was the problem?


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## NCSPARKEY (Nov 17, 2011)

jimmertee said:


> What was the problem?


A auto switching transformer for a laptop plugged into a receptacle that was not on my new afci circuit! Never thought in a million years that something on a def circuit could trip mine.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Myself, I don't think your customer's audio switcher was defective. I still think the fault is that the afci cannot determine the difference between an arcing fault and an audio switcher, or a million other normal things. They need to be removed from the mandatory list until the bugs are completely worked out of them.


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## Bulldog1 (Oct 21, 2011)

jimmertee said:


> Sparky, we have battled Alot of the same problems with these new combination style arc faults. We work with Eaton products and the support we get all the way from the sales rep to the engineers who design these breakers in Pittsburgh, PA is unreal. What we have found there alot of products that emulate an arc frequency trip. We have had problems with the following the past
> 
> - Back stabbing receptacles and switches,- dimmers,-furnace circuit board,-bad lamp cords, -light fixtures,-plasma screen / flat screen TV's, -Vacuum cleaners,-paper shredder-old surge strips.
> Some of these problems are just as simple as giving them a surge trap to plug in front of what product they are using. Probably 98% of the time it is not the wiring you installed. It's something the homeowner is using and it does not have to be on that particular circuit. Have them pay attention to what they do to make the breaker trip.


We have put in over 2k cutler hammer combo arc fault breakers. Had a vacuum cleaner trip one and several faulty appliances. Why you need eaton support is beyond me. :huh:


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## NCSPARKEY (Nov 17, 2011)

macmikeman said:


> Myself, I don't think your customer's audio switcher was defective. I still think the fault is that the afci cannot determine the difference between an arcing fault and an audio switcher, or a million other normal things. They need to be removed from the mandatory list until the bugs are completely worked out of them.


I agree back to the drawing board!


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## NCSPARKEY (Nov 17, 2011)

Bulldog1 said:


> We have put in over 2k cutler hammer combo arc fault breakers. Had a vacuum cleaner trip one and several faulty appliances. Why you need eaton support is beyond me. :huh:


Because I want to know why it trips when its not plugged into the afci circuit?


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## Bulldog1 (Oct 21, 2011)

NCSPARKEY said:


> Because I want to know why it trips when its not plugged into the afci circuit?


I didn't quote you.....:whistling2:


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

jimmertee said:


> What was the problem?





NCSPARKEY said:


> A auto switching transformer for a laptop plugged into a receptacle that was not on my new afci circuit! Never thought in a million years that something on a def circuit could trip mine.


How did you make the determination? (Trying to learn from your experiences)


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## NCSPARKEY (Nov 17, 2011)

hardworkingstiff said:


> How did you make the determination? (Trying to learn from your experiences)


If saw some of my earlier posts on this thread I explained it in full. But in the short version after many times back to the job for the afci tripping we had purchased a afci tester for 500.00 first time back we found it in mins by turning off each circuit until the afci tester cleared. Once it did we then ran around and one by one unplugged everything on that circuit when I pulled the power supply it cleared and never been back again!


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## Travis Latiolais (Sep 16, 2011)

We do about 30 new houses a year. Every time the customers move in, and have a dyson vacuum, we have ge arc fault problems. Tried to contact dyson, but no response. I feel your pain


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

#1- i don't install 300/year.

I have installed over 100 and in various arrangements- some extended ckts,some to existing and most to new ckts.

I have had 2(two) problems.
1- A short- started intermittent then went full. Fixed/replaced the wire- all better.

2- A BRK smoke detector- 120VAC w battery back up. Changed the unit- not a problem since.


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## noarcflash (Sep 14, 2011)

Travis Latiolais said:


> We do about 30 new houses a year. Every time the customers move in, and have a dyson vacuum, we have ge arc fault problems. Tried to contact dyson, but no response. I feel your pain


 
where does anyone build 30 new houses a year in this economy?


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## mbednarik (Oct 10, 2011)

NCSPARKEY said:


> If saw some of my earlier posts on this thread I explained it in full. But in the short version after many times back to the job for the afci tripping we had purchased a afci tester for 500.00 first time back we found it in mins by turning off each circuit until the afci tester cleared. Once it did we then ran around and one by one unplugged everything on that circuit when I pulled the power supply it cleared and never been back again!


What did you buy for a afci tester?


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## 8V71 (Dec 23, 2011)

A little late to the party but I can easily see how a junk switching power supply (laptop charger) can trick an afci breaker into tripping even if it’s not on the same circuit. They are supposed to have filtering to keep the garbage from getting back on the AC line but the knockoffs and cheapos are bad news with minimal filtering. Not only can this noise travel back to the panel through the hots and neutrals but also through the air like RFI interference if they are strong enough. Building wiring is like a large antenna system for these noises.


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## drm (Apr 29, 2008)

NCSPARKEY said:


> Thanx for that info! I just find it very unfair to us the contractor to have to chase these probe! I have installed a lot of these breakers in the past and never had a problem! This one job drove me nuts! We found in no time with the new arc fault tester but still lost way to much time on the job! Over something that had nothing to do with my work or circuit!


 
Just goes to show :Having the right tool for the job pays in the end. Had trouble tracing out a dead circuit once. I never wanted to spend $700.00 on a circuit tracer but it has paid off quite a few times since i got it. I would look at the glass as 1/2 full and advertise as an arc fault troubleshooter. Make some of that money back.


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## EIR (Sep 16, 2011)

have installed several hundred siemens arc fault have. i have had trouble from time to time,vaccum cleaners are the worst,man putting in rec. not paying attention ground against neutral,light bulbs. on a new construction had a table saw on garage ct when it started it would trip a lighting ct wound up being a loose neutral .yhey can be a pain to track down sometimes.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Seimens afci breakers have led's that tell you whether it is an arc, ground fault, or overload. If you keep a 15 and a 20 in the truck as a troubleshooting tool, and you are a cheapo like me, you save yourself $500 bucks.


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## noarcflash (Sep 14, 2011)

The man who dies with the most tools is the winner !


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## Theriot (Aug 27, 2011)

During construction it's shop vac that get me. The floor guys come in with old shop vacs. The cords are all mangled, crushed and coming out of the vac. The GC calls me to go look at the problem the first thing I do is plug something different in and then start to explain why their vac is tripping the breakers. Please use the gfi circuits for your vac.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Theriot said:


> During construction it's shop vac that get me. The floor guys come in with old shop vacs. The cords are all mangled, crushed and coming out of the vac. The GC calls me to go look at the problem the first thing I do is plug something different in and then start to explain why their vac is tripping the breakers. Please use the gfi circuits for your vac.



During construction, the only place cords are allowed to be plugged in is supposed to be gfi protected....


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## Theriot (Aug 27, 2011)

This once power is on and the a/c is on and they start the wood floors. I don't blame them why go outside to the temp pole when the house is powered.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Theriot said:


> This once power is on and the a/c is on and they start the wood floors. I don't blame them why go outside to the temp pole when the house is powered.


Don't power the house, and don't power the ac (that one because of the dust from the floor sanding more than for legal/ osha issues).

Somebody gets electrocuted , and you didn't provide gfi protection inside where they are plugging in and your at fault. 

Let them run extension cords. They run a business. If they cannot afford a cord or two , they should shut down and join the army. 

I get sick of the pressure to acommodate the other trades with power inside when its 100 per cent at my risk. If you must, put on only one circuit and use a gfi breaker on it.


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## Theriot (Aug 27, 2011)

The wooden floors need to seat in the a/c for 24 hour are more before setting in place.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Theriot said:


> The wooden floors need to seat in the a/c for 24 hour are more before setting in place.



Oops, Yes I have seen that before on jobs. Still make em run cords out to the pole for the sanders.


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## someguy (Feb 3, 2012)

Arc faults are nothing but garbage in my opinion. My foreman and I recently had to change out 320 arc fault breakers in a nursing home and replace them with gfci breakers because the mini fridge in each room would cause the afci to trip. It was a nightmare. It was an engineer mistake so he had to eat that cost.:laughing:


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## noarcflash (Sep 14, 2011)

someguy said:


> Arc faults are nothing but garbage in my opinion. My foreman and I recently had to change out 320 arc fault breakers in a nursing home and replace them with gfci breakers because the mini fridge in each room would cause the afci to trip. It was a nightmare. It was an engineer mistake so he had to eat that cost.:laughing:


And I believe you can for-go the GFI on a fridge dedicated circuit.


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## someguy (Feb 3, 2012)

noarcflash said:


> And I believe you can for-go the GFI on a fridge dedicated circuit.


Yea it wasn't just the mini fridge either. A vacuum when the cleaning lady would come in. The air compressors whenever we were originally building the place, pretty much anything.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

someguy said:


> Arc faults are nothing but garbage in my opinion. My foreman and I recently had to change out 320 arc fault breakers in a nursing home and replace them with gfci breakers because the mini fridge in each room would cause the afci to trip. It was a nightmare. It was an engineer mistake so he had to eat that cost.:laughing:


Sounds like you did something illlegal


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## someguy (Feb 3, 2012)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Sounds like you did something illlegal


I didn't do anything illegal. I just did what my foreman and engineer instructed me to do. What's illegal about changing out breakers?


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## Seannorva (Jan 25, 2012)

someguy said:


> Yea it wasn't just the mini fridge either. A vacuum when the cleaning lady would come in. The air compressors whenever we were originally building the place, pretty much anything.


Compressors of any kind when they are old or on their way out will cause a gfci or afci to trip because like any motor they naturally create fault. There are compressors in fridges and vacuums. You should never run anything with a compressor on a GFI circuit anyway. Tell them to get new sh*t and get those fridges off anything with fci in it.


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## someguy (Feb 3, 2012)

Seannorva said:


> Compressors of any kind when they are old or on their way out will cause a gfci or afci to trip because like any motor they naturally create fault. There are compressors in fridges and vacuums. You should never run anything with a compressor on a GFI circuit anyway. Tell them to get new sh*t and get those fridges off anything with fci in it.


Yea like I said, I just do what I'm told to do.:laughing:


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## davew (Feb 25, 2012)

My AFI advice:

Treat it like a dedicated GFI circuit...don't mix grounds, don't mix it with anything...get your general use plugs and lighting wired up and call it good.


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