# Whole House Surge Protection



## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

guess you are going to have to build yourself a tesla machine and tow it behind your truck to prove it to them. make sure before you turn it on you tell them they will need a new one when you are done,.


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## Bulldog1 (Oct 21, 2011)

The Cutler Hammer tells you on it if the two led lights are on the protection is working. That is why I sell that brand to our residential customers.


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## 3xdad (Jan 25, 2011)

i use SqD Surgebreaker with LED. You are not alone Bob, that is what i tell my customers. Green LED, good to go. No LED, toast, call in warranty.

There was a thread on here about testing those cap looking TVSS's. i think the verdict was kinda what wildleg said.:laughing:


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## yrman (Jun 12, 2011)

Bulldog1 said:


> The Cutler Hammer tells you on it if the two led lights are on the protection is working. That is why I sell that brand to our residential customers.


How do you convince your customer to have a surge arrestor installed? We are going to start pushing them, but are wondering how to approach the need. In my 40 years, I have seen ONE in a panel I upgraded. I didn't know what the hell it was! That was in the mid 90's and I have yet to come across one since. Now, we think the time has come to make people aware of them. Thanks.


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## Bulldog1 (Oct 21, 2011)

yrman said:


> How do you convince your customer to have a surge arrestor installed? We are going to start pushing them, but are wondering how to approach the need. In my 40 years, I have seen ONE in a panel I upgraded. I didn't know what the hell it was! That was in the mid 90's and I have yet to come across one since. Now, we think the time has come to make people aware of them. Thanks.


'
About 10 years ago they started making appliances "smart" or putting electronics where before a manual timer was used. Appliances today are more likely to be damaged from surges than the old appliances are. I usually get a call AFTER things get damaged and they want the protection so there is no convincing. CH also has a great 3 minute video you can send customers.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

Has anyone ever installed those square D outdoor surge protectors on the meter base? I put a few of them on before I realized they didnt look like the ones everyone else put on the meterbase, and now i'm kind of shy to install another one.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

yrman said:


> How do you convince your customer to have a surge arrestor installed...?


 My question exactly.

I understand arrestors definitely have a function, and maybe if you live in Lightning Alley it's easily justified, but I've never known anyone who's lost equipment to an identifiable surge. The best you could say is it might extend the life of some electronics if for some reason they do get a bunch of spikes on the line.

I dunno, it seems like a tough sell to me. You can't tell them it will protect from lightning, because it won't, and you can't tell them they need it, because honestly, I'm not sure a lot of people do?

-John


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

If your selling 20-30 afci's in an upgrade and/or new service, it's recommended _(by proxy of them being megger sensitive)_ to install surge suppression 

if mother nature has it in for _you_ , like she does _me_, install as per the concept of series aic

meter, panel, surge receptacle (yes they make them, this PC is plugged into one) , surge strip(s) , ups w/ power conditioner









~CS~


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

yrman,I ask about how many appliances and tv,s computers,that have sensitive electronics in them and let them ponder.


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

I sell/inst'd both sq/d and c/h. I put a bunch in past few years. My pitch is this, everything from the furnance to the sat/tv has a circuit pcb in it. Lightning and or surge or problems with poco maybe stopped by this. We had a hugh storm back in '05 2feet of snow in october lots of problems power out for days/floating nue's gen problems ect ect. For $500 it is piece of mind/ not purfect. Or deal with your insurance comany for all the replacments


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## yrman (Jun 12, 2011)

Big John said:


> My question exactly.
> 
> I understand arrestors definitely have a function, and maybe if you live in Lightning Alley it's easily justified, but I've never known anyone who's lost equipment to an identifiable surge. The best you could say is it might extend the life of some electronics if for some reason they do get a bunch of spikes on the line.
> 
> ...


I watched that You Tube vid that was posted and learned a lot about whole house surge supressors. In San Diego, we almost NEVER get thunder or lightning. It seems to be lightning strikes that make them more required. If we ocasionally get lighning here, everyone goes outside to watch it. It's that scarce.


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## sparky.jp (May 1, 2009)

Big John said:


> My question exactly.
> 
> I understand arrestors definitely have a function, and maybe if you live in Lightning Alley it's easily justified, but I've never known anyone who's lost equipment to an identifiable surge. The best you could say is it might extend the life of some electronics if for some reason they do get a bunch of spikes on the line.
> 
> ...


 Well, out here in the Seattle area, we don't have very much lightning either, but I know several friends and coworkers who have had newer major appliances fail due to power-related issues. As stated above, the newer appliances all have circuit boards in them with microcontrollers, and it's SOP for the appliance manufacturers to cut every last corner to save a penny or two and this includes any kind of built-in surge voltage protection.

The "old-school" applances were electromechanical, usually ran by a synchronous motor which is one of the most robust, reliable electrical devices ever known to exist.

Replacement circuit boards for most modern appliances are typically $150+ and this fact alone drives a lot of (unnecessary) new appliance purchases.

With all of the below items containing sensitive electronics, it's very easy to justify a whole-house surge arrester:

Furnace
Washer
Dryer 
Refrigerator
Stove
Microwave
Hot water heater (some new high-effiency ones)
TVs, computers, etc

My $.02, YMMV


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

you fellas don't have lightning? christ on a cracker, i can't leave the house in a thunder storm here.....~CS~


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

Was grilling chicken under patio canapy couple years ago. Huge storm comes in chicken is like 15mins from done...hmm shxt Bolt comes down hits my neighbors 60foot evergreen about 150 feet from me..I will never go outside in a storm again daxn near stxt myself.


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

A few years ago,as we refer to it as the Larry Event, Larry was cutting firewood on power co. right of way when one fell the wrong way and caused a 25kv line to touch a 12kv line. 8 houses lost most of their appliances,tvs,computers,ect. Those fios box converters cost $3k.Suprisingly,anything on a gfi receptacle was spared by the device dying first.Not one surge strip among the bunch.


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## sparky.jp (May 1, 2009)

bobelectric said:


> A few years ago,as we refer to it as the Larry Event, Larry was cutting firewood on power co. right of way when one fell the wrong way and caused a 25kv line to touch a 12kv line. 8 houses lost most of their appliances,tvs,computers,ect. Those fios box converters cost $3k.Suprisingly,anything on a gfi receptacle was spared by the device dying first.Not one surge strip among the bunch.


 Yes, in many areas it's common for the medium-voltage distribution to be higher up on the same poles than the 12-13kV that feeds the neighborhoods. In the summertime, line sag caused by overloading the higher-up lines in hot weather can also cause this dangerous cross-connection.

Although if something like this happens for an extended period (more than a second +/-), even a whole-house surge arrester isn't going to help you as those devices can only shunt a certain amount of energy before they let the magic smoke out too. That's why you have insurance!


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## volleyball (Sep 14, 2011)

The whole house surge protector is the first line defense in a home. computers and electronics should all be on them. 
You can have a short in the house that will kill other electronics too. A whole whole unit protects against bad weather, but also if say someone hits the power line near your house. If your house is clustered you are less likely to bear the brunt but are you willing to take the chance? 
A surge protectors cost is recouped if you save maybe 1 item in the house, plus the aggravation of it burning up. A new digital thermostat may not cost that much but being days without heat/cooling and you get a wish I had done that sooner.


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## swimmer (Mar 19, 2011)

Big John said:


> My question exactly.
> 
> I understand arrestors definitely have a function, and maybe if you live in Lightning Alley it's easily justified, but I've never known anyone who's lost equipment to an identifiable surge. The best you could say is it might extend the life of some electronics if for some reason they do get a bunch of spikes on the line.
> 
> ...



My customers in Ventura, CA loose smart appliances due to surge. This is NOT lightening. These surges are associated with power company equipment failure such as when a car runs into a power pole.


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## swimmer (Mar 19, 2011)

volleyball said:


> The whole house surge protector is the first line defense in a home. computers and electronics should all be on them.
> You can have a short in the house that will kill other electronics too. A whole whole unit protects against bad weather, but also if say someone hits the power line near your house. If your house is clustered you are less likely to bear the brunt but are you willing to take the chance?
> A surge protectors cost is recouped if you save maybe 1 item in the house, plus the aggravation of it burning up. A new digital thermostat may not cost that much but being days without heat/cooling and you get a wish I had done that sooner.



I'd put the TVs, computers and smart appliances on surge protector strips. The reason is that I don't know if the whole house protector at the service panel will protect against an open neutral on a shared neutral branch circuit. This fault can give a sustained 240V to the appliance. A decent surge protector strip will fry itself during this condition but the appliance will be saved.


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

Will a surge protector protect against over voltage?
Here after the fluke October storm,several areas suffered damage from an over voltage(270V- 1 leg at 160!) when power was restored.


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## swimmer (Mar 19, 2011)

leland said:


> Will a surge protector protect against over voltage?
> Here after the fluke October storm,several areas suffered damage from an over voltage(270V- 1 leg at 160!) when power was restored.



Yes, a decent power strip style surge protector will sacrifice itself for a sustained over voltage condition but the protected equipment will survive. I've seen it happen in a cubicle farm where all protectors burned and all computers survived. I've also discussed it with a Hubble representative.


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## Sparky J (May 17, 2011)

Usually I recommend 2 stage protection one at the main electric panel(s) and one for outlying items computers, tvs, etc. The way I see it the one at the main catches most and the other ones downstream protect items that can be connected to them also dual protection. But also the main unit protects what you cannot put on powerstrips, electric ranges, dryers, a/c, etc. That said you should also protect cable and phone wiring in case of lightning, but honestly those are the ones I have problems selling people don't think they need them until their stuff is fried that way.


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## volleyball (Sep 14, 2011)

Actually you could protect ranges and other appliances. The SQ D external surge protector could be wired up to the line for each appliance. Or you could use one leg for say a range and one leg for the dryer if you know which leg is being used for 120 to power the logic boards.

You guys might also want to remember if a building gets a hit then if they want to continue protection, replace all of the surge protectors in the buildings circuit. A m.o.v. that does it job will appear fine but be useless.


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## westom (Nov 12, 2011)

swimmer said:


> Yes, a decent power strip style surge protector will sacrifice itself for a sustained over voltage condition but the protected equipment will survive.


 Voyager defined why protection has worked for over 100 years in http://www.electriciantalk.com/f2/lightning-protection-31826/. In reply to leland.

 Protection is always about where energy dissipates. Voyager prefers what is a most common solution for protection - Ufer ground. A solution pioneered in munitions dumps so that direct lightning strikes cause no damage and no explosions.

 Grossly undersizing a protector means a surge, too tiny to harm appliances, will easily destroy that protector. Then the naive will assume "A protector sacrificed itself to save my computer." Profits increased by grossly undersizing a protector. Simply read its spec numbers. What do hundreds of thousands of joules do to near zero (hundreds of joules) inside that protector? Where does that grossly undersized protector even claim protection - in numbers?

 Protection is never about a protector. Some protection systems do not even have protectors. But every protection system has what does the protection. Single point earth ground. Either a protector connects that energy low impedance (ie 'less than 10 feet') to single point earth ground. Or it sells near zero joules for a massive profit. And then fails easily to promote more sales.

 Why is a 'whole house' solution the only solution used in every facility that cannot have damage? Because a protector makes a short (ie 'less than 10 feet') to what does the protection. Where do hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate to have no damage?

 Direct lightning strikes (typically 20,000 amps) are connected as short as possible to earth. Even the 'whole house' protector (50,000 amps or higher) is not damaged. Protection means nobody even knew the surge existed. Even a protector must remain functional.

 Just installing any protector (even 'whole house') does not mean protection exists. Critical is how earthing is installed or upgraded to both meet and exceed post 1990 code. That 4 mm wire must have no sharp bends, be separated from other non-grounding wires, as short as possible (ie 'less than 10 feet'), not inside metallic conduit, etc. Critical is a low impedance (not low resistance) connection to single point earth ground.

 What does the protection? A grossly undersized protector is sacrificial. And in some rare cases has even created house fires.


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## bud-- (Dec 6, 2011)

The best information on surges and surge protection I have seen is at:
http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_lhm/IEEE_Guide.pdf
- How to protect your house and its contents from lightning: IEEE guide for surge protection of equipment connected to AC power and communication circuits; published by the IEEE in 2005 .
And also:
http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/practiceguides/surgesfnl.pdf
- NIST recommended practice guide: Surges Happen!: how to protect the appliances in your home; published by the US National Institute of Standards and Technology in 2001

The IEEE guide is aimed at those with some technical background, like people here. The NIST guide is aimed at the unwashed masses.



westom said:


> Grossly undersizing a protector means a surge, too tiny to harm appliances, will easily destroy that protector. Then the naive will assume "A protector sacrificed itself to save my computer." Profits increased by grossly undersizing a protector. Simply read its spec numbers. What do hundreds of thousands of joules do to near zero (hundreds of joules) inside that protector? Where does that grossly undersized protector even claim protection - in numbers?


This is all nonsense. Westom doesn't think plug-in protectors work and are a scam.

He says there are no spec numbers for plug-in protectors. Many people have provided specs - westom ignores them. Some plug-in protectors even have warranties for protected equipment.

Westom thinks the joule rating of plug-in protectors is miniscule. The author of the NIST surge guide looked at the energy that could be absorbed in a MOV (the voltage limiting elements in virtually all plug-in and service panel protectors) at a plug-in protector. He used branch circuits 10 m and longer. And the surge on the hot service wire was up to 10,000A. (That is the maximum surge with any reasonable probability of occurring and is based on a 100,000A strike to a utility pole adjacent to a house in typical overhead distribution.) The energy dissipated at a plug-in protector was a surprisingly small 35 joules maximum. In 13 of 15 cases it was 1 joule or less. Plug-in protectors with far higher ratings are readily available.

There are a couple reasons why the energy is so low. 
One is that at about 6kV there is arc over from service panel busbars to the enclosure. After the arc is established the voltage is hundreds of volts. Since the enclosure is connected to the earthing system that dumps most of the surge energy to earth. And the neutral is bonded to the enclosure/ground further limiting the exposure. (There is also arc-over in 15/20A receptacles at about 6kV.)
The second reason is that a surge is, by definition, a very short event. That means the surge current components are relatively high frequency. That means the inductance of the wires is more important than the resistance. The impedance of the branch circuit wiring greatly limits the current (and thus energy) that can reach the plug-in protector.

Contrary to westom's beliefs, both the IEEE and NIST surge guides say plug-in protectors are effective.

Plug-in protectors do not work primarily by earthing a surge. They limit the voltage between all wires (power and signal) to the ground at the protector. All interconnected equipment needs to be connected to the same protector. External connections, like phone, also need to go through the protector. (There is a good example in the IEEE surge guide starting page 30.)



westom said:


> Why is a 'whole house' solution the only solution used in every facility that cannot have damage? Because a protector makes a short (ie 'less than 10 feet') to what does the protection. Where do hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate to have no damage?


A service panel protector is a real good idea. 
But from the NIST surge guide:
Q - Will a surge protector installed at the service entrance be sufficient for the whole house?
A - There are two answers to than question: Yes for one-link appliances [electronic equipment], No for two-link appliances [equipment connected to power AND phone or cable or....]. Since most homes today have some kind of two-link appliances, the prudent answer to the question would be NO - but that does not mean that a surge protector installed at the service entrance is useless.

The NIST surge guide suggests that most equipment damage is from high voltage between power and phone/cable/... wires. (An example is in the IEEE surge guide starting page 30.) A service panel protector does not limit the voltage between power and phone/cable wires. But a service panel protector should protect anything connected to only power wires.



westom said:


> Just installing any protector (even 'whole house') does not mean protection exists. Critical is how earthing is installed or upgraded to both meet and exceed post 1990 code.


Explain what happened in the 1990 NEC.

The author of the NIST surge guide has written =the impedance of the grounding system to `true earth' is far less important than the integrity of the bonding of the various parts of the grounding system.=

That is - use short ground wires from phone and cable (and dish) entry protectors to the common connection point to the earthing system. (The distance from the common connection point to the service N-G bond should also be short.) If you have a surge current to earth of 1,000A with a resistance to earth of 10 ohms, the building 'ground' system rises 10,000V above 'absolute' earth potential. Much of the protection for equipment connected to both power and signal wires is that all wires rise together. Because of the impedance of wire for a surge that requires short wires.



westom said:


> A grossly undersized protector is sacrificial. And in some rare cases has even created house fires.


There is that =grossly undersized= again.

And since 1998 UL has required thermal disconnects for overheating MOVs. 

===========================================
Will a surge protector protect against over voltage?

May or may not.

MOVs work by limiting the voltage across the device. The limiting voltage is typically 300V or higher. If you have a loose neutral, a service panel or plug-in protector is not likely to do anything.

MOVs are very effective shunting thousands of amps for maybe a 100 microsecond surge from lightning. If you have crossed primary and secondary wires the duration will rapidly burn out MOVs. UPSs and a few plug-in protectors disconnect on overvoltage and may protect from crossed power wires. Or overcurrent protection opening may protect equipment (if the OCP can safely open at the higher voltage).


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## Speedskater (Oct 2, 2009)

"westom" has posted his point of view on at least two dozen different forums. Other posters often disagree with his ideas.


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## westom (Nov 12, 2011)

Speedskater said:


> Other posters often disagree with his ideas.


 Posted is the only solution used in every facility that cannot have damage. Professionals recommend earthing for surge protection. Employees could even be fired for installing protectors adjacent to electronics; for making damage easier. Not my idea. Well proven science. Each reader has only two choices. To be educated by advertising. Or to learn the only solution when professionals implement solutions.

 Professionals such as the NIST (US government research agency that studies this stuff) say:
> A very important point to keep in mind is that your surge protector
> will work by diverting the surges to ground. The best surge
> protection in the world can be useless if grounding is not done
> properly. 

 Could the NIST be any blunter? The NIST describes them as "useless". After all, do hundreds of thousands of joules just magically disappear? Bud, who is paid well by power strip manufacturers to promote those "useless" products, could provide those numbers ... if those numbers exist. He again posts no numbers. His job is to obfuscate what has been the only proven protection for over 100 years. His income is dependent on profit centers - selling $4 power strips with ten cent protector parts for $25 and $150.

 His IEEE brochure is also blunt. Page 42 Figure 8 shows an adjacent protector earthing a surge 8000 volts destructively through any nearby appliance. Non-earthed protectors may even make appliance damage easier. IEEE put a number to it. 8000 volts destructively to earth via any nearby appliance. Because that protector was not earthed.

 IEEE makes recommendations in standards. Numerous IEEE standards only recommend a 'whole house' protector. IEEE Red Book says:
> In actual practice, lightning protection is achieve by the process of
> interception of lightning produced surges, diverting them to ground,
> and by altering their associated wave shapes.

 How does any plug-in protector do that? It doesn't.

IEEE Emerald book says:
> It is important to ensure that low-impedance grounding and
> bonding connections exist among the telephone and data
> equipment, the ac power system's electrical safety-grounding
> system, and the building grounding electrode system. ... 
> Failure to observe any part of this grounding requirement
> may result in hazardous potential being developed between
> the telephone (data) equipment and other grounded items
> that personnel may be near or might simultaneously contact.
 Why do all professionals recommend earthing a 'whole house' protector? IEEE provides numbers in another standard entitled 'Static and Lightning Protection Grounding'. A properly earthed 'whole house' protector does 99.5% to 99.9% protection. More responsible companies such as Square D, Siemens, Intermatic, Cutler-Hammer (Eaton), General Electric, ABB, and Leviton provide the well proven solution. At best, power strips might do another 0.2% protection. Why would anyone spend tens of times more money for near zero (0.2%) protection? Advertising.

 The informed ignore sales propaganda. The informed demand numbers. The informed know why best protection is hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly absorbed outside a building. The IEEE says that is 99.5% protection. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground -as any professional knows from over 100 years of science and experience. The informed learn from professionals and science; not from advertising and accusations without numbers.


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## bud-- (Dec 6, 2011)

Speedskater said:


> "westom" has posted his point of view on at least two dozen different forums. Other posters often disagree with his ideas.


If anyone cares, westom's argument with regard to plug-in protectors is that you MUST directly use earthing to provide surge protection. Since plug-in protectors are not well earthed they can not possibly provide protection.

Unfortunately for westom, the IEEE surge guide explains (starting page 30) that plug-in protectors do not protect primarily by earthing a surge. They protect by limiting the voltage between all wires (power and signal) and the ground at the protector. The voltage between wires going to the protected equipment is safe for the protected equipment.

Westom is evangelical in his beliefs and googles for [surge] in his crusade to stamp out the scourge of plug-in protectors. Googling for [westom surge -baseball] returns about 14,000 hits.



westom said:


> Professionals such as the NIST (US government research agency that studies this stuff) say:


What does the NIST surge guide really say about plug-in protectors?
They are =the easiest solution=.
And =one effective solution is to have the consumer install= a multiport plug-in protector.

Lacking sources that agree with him westom tries to make the NIST say the opposite of what it really say.



westom said:


> After all, do hundreds of thousands of joules just magically disappear?


It is only magic for westom. I explained where the surge energy goes. Westom ignores anything that does not fit his apparently religious belief (immune from challenge) in earthing.



westom said:


> Bud, who is paid well by power strip manufacturers to promote those "useless" products,


If poor westom had valid technical arguments he wouldn't have to lie about other people. The only association I have with surge protection is I use some surge protectors.



westom said:


> could provide those numbers ... if those numbers exist.


As I said previously many people have provided specs. I have provided specs. 

Always ignored.

Apparently westom knows plug-in protectors can not work so specs can not possibly exist.



westom said:


> His IEEE brochure is also blunt. Page 42 Figure 8 shows an adjacent protector earthing a surge 8000 volts destructively through any nearby appliance. Non-earthed protectors may even make appliance damage easier. IEEE put a number to it. 8000 volts destructively to earth via any nearby appliance. Because that protector was not earthed.


If poor westom could only read and think he could discover what the IEEE surge guide says in this example:

- A plug-in suppressor protects the TV connected to it.
- =To protect TV2, a second multiport protector located at TV2 is required.=
- In the example a surge comes in on a cable service with the ground wire from cable entry ground block to the ground at the power service that is far too long. In that case the IEEE guide says =the only effective way of protecting the equipment is to use a multiport [plug-in] protector.=
- westom's favored power service suppressor would provide absolutely NO protection.

It is simply a lie that the plug-in suppressor in the IEEE example damages the second TV.

Lacking sources that agree with him westom tries to turn an IEEE example of how plug-in protectors work on its head.



westom said:


> IEEE Emerald book says:


The IEEE Emerald book (IEEE Recommended Practice for Powering and Grounding Sensitive Electronic Equipment) recognizes plug-in suppressors as an effective protection device.

The IEEE surge guide says plug-in protectors are effective. The only 2 examples showing protective setups at the end both use plug-in protectors. 

Lacking sources that agree with him westom tries to make the IEEE say the opposite of what it really say.



westom said:


> More responsible companies such as Square D, Siemens, Intermatic, Cutler-Hammer (Eaton), General Electric, ABB, and Leviton provide the well proven solution.


Every one of westom's responsible companies except SquareD makes plug-in protectors and says they are effective. SquareD says for their best service panel protector =electronic equipment may need additional protection by installing plug-in TVSS devices at the point of use.=



westom said:


> The informed ignore sales propaganda.


The informed do not get their information from an internet nut.

The informed get their information from reliable sources, like the IEEE and NIST. Both the IEEE and NIST surge guides say plug-in protectors are effective.


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