# Ground & neutral in main service panel



## jett95

If it is truly the main panel and not a sub fed panel then i see no problem...post a picture please.....is there a disconnect outside


Whats a plumber doing on this forum, how were you allowed to post lol


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## BBQ

Man this is a conflict, help a plumber or back up a home inspector. 

It's like Sophie's choice. :laughing:


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## jett95

BBQ said:


> Man this is a conflict, help a plumber or back up a home inspector.
> 
> It's like Sophie's choice. :laughing:


Lol same thing i was debating


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## Speedy Petey

From your description I see no problem. Then again we don't know the real deal. 

I'll leave this open for a while so you can clear things up and get your answer. 

For the record, many/most plumbers also carry limited electrical licenses. So they are not exactly unwelcome here. This isn't exactly a DIY question; well, maybe one by proxy, but we'll let it get answered.


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## Shawn23

jett95 said:


> If it is truly the main panel and not a sub fed panel then i see no problem...post a picture please.....is there a disconnect outside
> 
> 
> Whats a plumber doing on this forum, how were you allowed to post lol


 
I agree. A picture would be helpful. Does this "main service panel" have a main breaker in it?


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## Split Bolt

Friggin' home inspector leaving the panel cover off! One of my clients recently had a HI and the idiot left their oven on!


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## rlc3854

Zobie said:


> The homeowner is a widow whose husband was an electrician for many years. I myself am in no way an electrician, and do not represent myself as such. *Regardless, the home inspector has tagged her main electrical service panel as not being up to code.* The question I have is:
> 
> "Is it okay to have the neutral and ground wires in the main service panel attached to the same bus bar?" If so, what NEC code pertains /quote]
> 
> I hate this type of statement from a HI. First what code cycle are they referring to. I take it that the house is not new, so was it up to code at the time of construction, renovation or new service installation. The HI's report should state what code the panel is being tagged as not up to code. Have her hire an EC to prove/disprove the HI.


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## AllPhaser

Zobie said:


> I am a licensed plumber and I have been working on a customer's house installing a new shower valve. This project is part of a punch list from a home inspection as the house is pending sale.
> 
> The homeowner is a widow whose husband was an electrician for many years. I myself am in no way an electrician, and do not represent myself as such. Regardless, the home inspector has tagged her main electrical service panel as not being up to code. The question I have is:
> 
> "Is it okay to have the neutral and ground wires in the main service panel attached to the same bus bar?" If so, what NEC code pertains to this?
> 
> The reason I am aware of this situation is the home inspector left the service panel cover off after his inspection. As a favor to the widow homeowner I re-installed the panel cover. While re-installing the panel, she told me the "issue" of the panel.
> 
> Regardless, I am simply trying to get an answer for Nancy who is upset at the home inspector for tagging the panel and wishes her husband was alive to "set the inspector straight".
> 
> I will say this, the electrical panel is very neat and organized. If the panel does need reworked, she will obviously have to call a licensed electrician to do the work.
> 
> Thanks to all and be safe.
> 
> Lon
> 
> P.S. We are in Indiana - if that has any impact on the codes.


Is there a meter ?


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## bkmichael65

As long as the neutral isn't grounded at the meter, I can't think of any problem with what you're describing. I would ask the inspector for clarification/code reference


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## ceb58

bkmichael65 said:


> As long as the neutral isn't grounded at the meter, I can't think of any problem with what you're describing. I would ask the inspector for clarification/code reference


There is nothing wrong with BONDING the neutral and GROUNDING ELECTRODE CONDUCTOR in the meter, as long as the poco is OK with it.


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## bkmichael65

ceb58 said:


> There is nothing wrong with BONDING the neutral and GROUNDING ELECTRODE CONDUCTOR in the meter, as long as the poco is OK with it.


No, but if you ground it in the meter you can't run egc's to the neutral bar of the panel and that is what the OP was saying was a problem with the panel


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## Sparky305

bkmichael65 said:


> No, but if you ground it in the meter you can't run egc's to the neutral bar of the panel and that is what the OP was saying was a problem with the panel


I thought you couldn't run your neutrals and EGCs to the same bus bar regardless. 

If the panel is the first means of disconnect with the main breaker then then neutral gets bonded to the can with the MBJ, but all the branch circuit neutrals go to the neutrals bus, and the EGCs go to the grounding bus.

Is this correct?


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## bkmichael65

Sparky305 said:


> I thought you couldn't run your neutrals and EGCs to the same bus bar regardless.
> 
> If the panel is the first means of disconnect with the main breaker then then neutral gets bonded to the can with the MBJ, but all the branch circuit neutrals go to the neutrals bus, and the EGCs go to the grounding bus.
> 
> Is this correct?


Your way is correct, but I don't see the other way as a code violation since you're not making any objectionable current paths


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## wendon

If there is no disconnect ahead of the panel, the bonding jumper would need to be in the panel. Therefore the grounds (grounding) and neutrals (grounded) could be installed on the same bar. Are there neutrals doubled up on the neutral bar?


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## ceb58

bkmichael65 said:


> No, but if you ground it in the meter you can't run egc's to the neutral bar of the panel and that is what the OP was saying was a problem with the panel


If you bond them in the meter there is no EGC going to the panel just the 2 ungrounded and the grounded.
The way I read the OP is that he is looking at the grounds for the branch circuits that are on the same bar as the neutral. Which would be the correct way to do it.


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## bkmichael65

ceb58 said:


> If you bond them in the meter there is no EGC going to the panel just the 2 ungrounded and the grounded.
> The way I read the OP is that he is looking at the grounds for the branch circuits that are on the same bar as the neutral. Which would be the correct way to do it.


If you bond the gec to the neutral in the meter and then run egc's the neutral in the panel, then you will energize the ground paths between the meter and the panel.That's all I was trying to say. If the neutral is grounded in the panel, then there is no problem with running egc's to the neutral bar


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## ceb58

bkmichael65 said:


> If you bond the gec to the neutral in the meter and then run egc's the neutral in the panel, then you will energize the ground paths between the meter and the panel.That's all I was trying to say. If the neutral is grounded in the panel, then there is no problem with running egc's to the neutral bar


??? We are on two different pages. If you bond the Grounding Electrode Conductor and the Grounded conductor in the meter there will NOT be an Equipment Grounding Conductor going to the panel.
Any way we may never know what's going on as the OP hasn't replied back. I still think he is looking at the branch circuits neutrals and grounds on the same bar.


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## Semi-Ret Electrician

Split Bolt said:


> Friggin' home inspector leaving the panel cover off! One of my clients recently had a HI and the idiot left their oven on!


Once had a HI try to replace an SE cover, which had self-tapping screws, after he re-positioned the wire. Screw bored into a #8 and flame & smoke shot out, in front of the HO!

He said " you need to call an electrician":laughing:


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## Jls

Hello. I know this is an old thread, but I just stumbled across it and it relates to my situation. For the record I've had a local electrician look at my issue, I'm just looking for a second opinion from the professionals around here.

Here's the situation: 
A few months back I had a major power surge and damaged or destroyed things all over my house. I believe the power companies overhead lines were struck by lightning just beyond where they branch off to go into my property. It sounded like a bomb went off just outside the house and we immediately lost power. I checked the panel in the garage, nothing tripped, called the power company.

It's a rural property, the power company has a 'green box' transformer sitting on the property that supplies the house and one freestanding metal barn. When the power company came out they replaced some fuses in their transformer and declared the problem solved.

A few days later I discovered lots of electrical damage in the barn. Burned up wire in the conduits, entire circuits melted, dead ballasts in the overhead fluorescents, burned receptacles, etc. There was an arc in the panel between one of the 120v feeder lines and one the screws that holds the face plate onto the panel. The charring, and tape over the tiny imperfection in the wire's insulation, is visible in the picture below.

The building was built in 2011. Insullated metal barn on a concrete slab. All electrical run on the surface in EMT conduit.

To make a long story short, after finding the damage, for good measure I replaced everything in the barn except for the panel itself, the panel's main breaker, and the exiting conduit. I replaced all the breakers and added a 'SurgeBreaker', replaced all the wire, all the receptacles, switches, light fixtures, etc. 

While doing this work I discovered there were no ground wires run to anything, nor was there a ground rod or ground bar in the panel. I assumed at the time this was either ok because it was acceptable to count the EMT conduit as a ground in a building like this, -or- possibly that it simply wasn't grounded because the contractor that built the barn seemed to me to be of questionable moral character.

It didn't strike me as acceptable though, so I added a ground bar to the panel (lower left corner in the picture), drove a single 8' copper ground rod outside the building directly on the other side of the wall from the panel, near where the service drop goes into the ground, and I ran #6 copper between them (the green wire in the picture). All my new circuits have a ground wire and all the receptacles and junction boxes are connected to it.

So, finally, my question: I stumbled across some info in some other threads that gave me the impression I may have screwed up by adding the ground rod. They seemed to imply that in the main panel, there is no ground bus, only the 2 hot lines and the neutral from the power company. Is this right? Should I disconnect that ground wire running out to the ground rod?

This barn panel is not a subpanel behind the house panel, it would be as far as I know, considered a main. It's the only one in the barn, and the service lines feeding it run, as far as I know, to the meter out by the 'green box' transformer.

Please check my work in the picture below and let me know if I've made any mistakes. Thank you very much for your time and expertise.

Picture: https://db.tt/WYnvmMTW


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## RePhase277

Jls said:


> Hello. I know this is an old thread, but I just stumbled across it and it relates to my situation. For the record I've had a local electrician look at my issue, I'm just looking for a second opinion from the professionals around here.
> 
> Here's the situation:
> A few months back I had a major power surge and damaged or destroyed things all over my house. I believe the power companies overhead lines were struck by lightning just beyond where they branch off to go into my property. It sounded like a bomb went off just outside the house and we immediately lost power. I checked the panel in the garage, nothing tripped, called the power company.
> 
> It's a rural property, the power company has a 'green box' transformer sitting on the property that supplies the house and one freestanding metal barn. When the power company came out they replaced some fuses in their transformer and declared the problem solved.
> 
> A few days later I discovered lots of electrical damage in the barn. Burned up wire in the conduits, entire circuits melted, dead ballasts in the overhead fluorescents, burned receptacles, etc. There was an arc in the panel between one of the 120v feeder lines and one the screws that holds the face plate onto the panel. The charring, and tape over the tiny imperfection in the wire's insulation, is visible in the picture below.
> 
> The building was built in 2011. Insullated metal barn on a concrete slab. All electrical run on the surface in EMT conduit.
> 
> To make a long story short, after finding the damage, for good measure I replaced everything in the barn except for the panel itself, the panel's main breaker, and the exiting conduit. I replaced all the breakers and added a 'SurgeBreaker', replaced all the wire, all the receptacles, switches, light fixtures, etc.
> 
> While doing this work I discovered there were no ground wires run to anything, nor was there a ground rod or ground bar in the panel. I assumed at the time this was either ok because it was acceptable to count the EMT conduit as a ground in a building like this, -or- possibly that it simply wasn't grounded because the contractor that built the barn seemed to me to be of questionable moral character.
> 
> It didn't strike me as acceptable though, so I added a ground bar to the panel (lower left corner in the picture), drove a single 8' copper ground rod outside the building directly on the other side of the wall from the panel, near where the service drop goes into the ground, and I ran #6 copper between them (the green wire in the picture). All my new circuits have a ground wire and all the receptacles and junction boxes are connected to it.
> 
> So, finally, my question: I stumbled across some info in some other threads that gave me the impression I may have screwed up by adding the ground rod. They seemed to imply that in the main panel, there is no ground bus, only the 2 hot lines and the neutral from the power company. Is this right? Should I disconnect that ground wire running out to the ground rod?
> 
> This barn panel is not a subpanel behind the house panel, it would be as far as I know, considered a main. It's the only one in the barn, and the service lines feeding it run, as far as I know, to the meter out by the 'green box' transformer.
> 
> Please check my work in the picture below and let me know if I've made any mistakes. Thank you very much for your time and expertise.
> 
> Picture: https://db.tt/WYnvmMTW


You should have a plumber check that out for you.


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## emtnut

Jls said:


> Please check my work in the picture below and let me know if I've made any mistakes. Thank you very much for your time and expertise.
> 
> Picture: https://db.tt/WYnvmMTW


Yep ... You've made mistakes


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## Voltron

InPhase277 said:


> You should have a plumber check that out for you.


They charge too much, better off having a general handyman.... They dabble in various issues and are reasonably priced.


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## Anathera

Nevermind wrong post


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## 360max

...typical plumber, starts a thread with a question than ................:whistling2:


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## gnuuser

since a barn is an out building a sub panel cannot have a bonded neutral but should have at least gfci breakers installed. 
(any place where electric and moisture is a factor )
ground electrode may or may not be required but that is up to the local code requirements.
conduit in dry areas can be emt or rigid, but in moist areas should be pvc or coated emt.
hay lofts and grain storage required explosion proof lamp fixtures.
shielded fluorescent fixtures need to be high enough that animals cannot reach them.

while it might be overkill installing an e-stop system with multiple buttons and control relay or contactors (to disconnect power) would be a tremendous help should emergencies occur!

considering what you have invested in your barn and any animals you have, the extra amount you spend for safety is peanuts compared to what you would lose if it all burned down!
this is a difficult concept for most farmers to come to terms with


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## gnuuser

on an added note to my post above, a local farmer i knew recently had his barn lost to electrical fire, 
(mouse chewed through an unshielded romex run in the grain bins (flash caught the hay loft ablaze and the entire barn went up rapidly))
lost nearly 3/4 of a million in equipment and animals not to mention the cost of the barn and silos themselves,
so yes safety equipment is peanuts in cost!


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## theJcK

Its kosher for homeowners to do their own electrical in my area.. BUT you need to pull a permit and the inspector should set you start with the info youre requesting. All that being said.. you should know whether you have a separate service for this structure if doing the work.. either its a main with a ground rod and GEC or its a subfeed with a 4 wire. From your description though id swear you suffered a direct lightning event and I would suggest installing an arrestor system and an ENTIRE replacement of the electrical system IMHO (all from your depiction as I couldnt see the photo).


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