# Pentair pool pumps tripping GFCI breakers.



## Drsparky14

I have many pool jobs for a contractor here and I am having an issue where all the pool pumps with variable speed are tripping my CH and BR GFCI breakers. But if I use Siemens breakers I'm having no issue. Wtf?


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## oliquir

pretty common problem i saw on diy, some gfci are more sensible to harmonics created by vfds inside the pumps


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## John Valdes

How are you sizing the OCPD?


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## oliquir

John Valdes said:


> How are you sizing the OCPD?


 They almost all run on standard 20A 240v circuit, there no need for special ocpd


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## Drsparky14

oliquir said:


> They almost all run on standard 20A 240v circuit, there no need for special ocpd




The pumps on average are 12.5 amps or 14.7 amps and so I have been putting a 20a GFCI breaker on them. I even tried an AFGF breaker as well since I have many in my service truck. 


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## nrp3

I had one a couple of years ago with a variable speed pump and I believe within the instructions it specified a certain Siemens GFCI breaker would help if you had troubles. After that never heard anything more about tripping (that is after I installed specified cicuit breaker).


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## Drsparky14

nrp3 said:


> I had one a couple of years ago with a variable speed pump and I believe within the instructions it specified a certain Siemens GFCI breaker would help if you had troubles. After that never heard anything more about tripping (that is after I installed specified cicuit breaker).




I read that they want me to use their pentair breakers but the pentair rep told me that they are just Siemens breakers with a pentair sticker on them. 

What I think is stupid is that they require this specific GFCI breaker instead of let's say a Cutler Hammer one or a Square D one. They are all built to meet certain UL specifications. They should be the same but are not. I get discounts on CH but not Siemens so it's frustrating. It also cost the customer more money because I'm not eating that cost. 


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## emtnut

Drsparky14 said:


> I read that they want me to use their pentair breakers but the pentair rep told me that they are just Siemens breakers with a pentair sticker on them.
> 
> What I think is stupid is that they require this specific GFCI breaker instead of let's say a Cutler Hammer one or a Square D one. They are all built to meet certain UL specifications. They should be the same but are not. I get discounts on CH but not Siemens so it's frustrating. It also cost the customer more money because I'm not eating that cost.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It's a known issue with those pumps. The Hayward have the same problem

Siemens work ... the Square D have worked for me as well.

Supposedly it's the harmonics in the variable speed controller ... doesn't explain why some breakers work and others don't thou.


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## MechanicalDVR

emtnut said:


> It's a known issue with those pumps. The Hayward have the same problem
> 
> Siemens work ... the Square D have worked for me as well.
> 
> Supposedly it's the harmonics in the variable speed controller ... doesn't explain why some breakers work and others don't thou.



Seems like BS that you need to use a specific brand of breaker like that.


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## emtnut

MechanicalDVR said:


> Seems like BS that you need to use a specific brand of breaker like that.


I'll second that :thumbsup:


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## nrp3

I'd like to say it was different than the ordinary Siemens too, different part number, or maybe like someone said, Siemens in someone elses box, don't remember.


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## MechanicalDVR

nrp3 said:


> I'd like to say it was different than the ordinary Siemens too, different part number, or maybe like someone said, Siemens in someone elses box, don't remember.


I guess I've lucked out because I've installed plenty of Hayward pumps and never had any issues with them tripping GFCIs.


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## nrp3

It was the variable speed part that was the problem. Never had troubles with single speed.


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## nrp3

I see the pentair ones on amazon. Probably what it is. Sucks, cause now you probably need a seperate enclosure for the Siemens breaker if you don't have a Siemens panel to land it in. Better than it constantly tripping too.


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## MechanicalDVR

nrp3 said:


> It was the variable speed part that was the problem. Never had troubles with single speed.


Oh I'm aware.


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## telsa

To the OP:

Your problem is sensitivity to noise. 

You can make the problem go away with ferrous toroids.

These go for chicken feed on Amazon. 

They are embedded as a matter of course in MANY digital power cords. They're that fat bulge in the line.

*uxcell 7mm Inner Diameter Ferrite Ring Iron Toroid Cores Yellow White 50PCS *


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## MechanicalDVR

nrp3 said:


> I see the pentair ones on amazon. Probably what it is. Sucks, cause now you probably need a desperate enclosure for the Siemens breaker if you don't have a Siemens panel to land it in. Better than it constantly tripping too.


That is the part I thought of and would be really ticked off it I was the person footing the bills.


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## nrp3

I can't remember whether it was in the instructions with the unit or buried in some FAQ or tech support thing online either.


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## MechanicalDVR

nrp3 said:


> I can't remember whether it was in the instructions with the unit or buried in some FAQ or tech support thing online either.


I just looked through the Superpump VS manual and didn't see it in there.


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## nrp3

It may be that you need to log in as a pro. It was somewhere. I can see the breakers, but no tech info.


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## MechanicalDVR

nrp3 said:


> It may be that you need to log in as a pro. It was somewhere. I can see the breakers, but no tech info.


No big deal, I know now if it comes up again.


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## nrp3

I can get past the fact that they may work better with a certain brand of GFCI. The fact that you may not find out until after the install is done and someone has an unexpected expense isn't fair. I was brought in after the install and for me it was T&M and I made money.


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## MechanicalDVR

nrp3 said:


> I can get past the fact that they may work better with a certain brand of GFCI. *The fact that you may not find out until after the install is done and someone has an unexpected expense isn't fair. * I was brought in after the install and for me it was T&M and I made money.


I agree 100%. 

You drop $600 on the pump to begin with.

Then need to drop another $600 or better for a new subpanel and breaker!

That is total BS. 

The fact that most also need to have the controller mounted remotely is something folks don't think about when buying them either.


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## telsa

nrp3 said:


> I can get past the fact that they may work better with a certain brand of GFCI. The fact that you may not find out until after the install is done and someone has an unexpected expense isn't fair. I was brought in after the install and for me it was T&M and I made money.


I can't get past the fact that commentariat can't figure out that the SOLID STATE LOGIC of the GFCI is easily tripped out by noise -- by ultra-high frequency transients. 

These are almost totally repressed by ferrous toroids -- which is WHY ferrous toroids are produced by the million every day.

You're dealing with UNFILTERED circuits.

GET IT ?

The filters cost about $0.25 or less. 

Would everybody stop their kvetching ? Please ?


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## nrp3

I'd be willing to bet 80 percent of us here (or maybe its just me) that install these pumps yearly wouldn't know that. I would like the equipment I install to work most of the time upon install without having to read the minds of the folks who build and design these things or have to come back and re engineer it because a critical piece of info was left out of the instructions and hidden away somewhere.


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## MechanicalDVR

nrp3 said:


> I'd be willing to bet 80 percent of us here (or maybe its just me) that install these pumps yearly wouldn't know that. I would like the equipment I install to work most of the time upon install without having to read the minds of the folks who build and design these things or have to come back and re engineer it because a critical piece of info was left out of the instructions and hidden away somewhere.


Maybe they should include a two space panel with the necessary breaker when they sell you the pump.


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## nrp3

Having the explanation of why it does what it does is good too. Though I don't have enough background with these things to grab one of those donuts and be sure the problem is gone.


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## nrp3

I'd settle for, you may experience nuisance tripping if you don't use one of our GFCI breakers. That's good enough.


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## MechanicalDVR

nrp3 said:


> I'd settle for, you may experience nuisance tripping if you don't use one of our GFCI breakers. That's good enough.


That really isn't much to ask but they wouldn't do that.


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## nrp3

Documentation in our trade is so important. It's frustrating when its lacking key info.


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## MechanicalDVR

nrp3 said:


> Documentation in our trade is so important. It's frustrating when its lacking key info.


Manufacturers only care about dollars.

When their equipment slows down in sales then they pay attention.


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## nrp3

It's a fine product other than that as far as I know too.


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## MechanicalDVR

nrp3 said:


> It's a fine product other than that as far as I know too.


I've had no problems with Hayward at all, the Pentaire isn't popular at all in any places I've done pool work.


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## telsa

I don't pull service work....

But if I did, I'd have these cheap-a$$ ferrous toroids automatically installed when variable speed// solid state drivers are involved.

They are as cheap as WIRE NUTS... and ought to be installed right in the j-box while you're hooking these puppies up. They are small.

You'll see them festooned inside every PC's switch-mode power supply. 

They are EVERYWHERE where digital switching is used.

Exception: this or that item where a few cents can be shaved.

$ 0.25 eliminates a call-back.

For me the decision is obvious.

BTW, said toroids have no impact on 60 Hertz power. 

They chop off high frequency harmonics that drive OTHER solid state switching circuits crazy. 

Like the ones inside your GFI breaker.

Where do you place them ? Inside the panel near the GFI breaker -- or out at the load that's generating these harmonics. You chose.

Open up an old style PC power supply to see what these look like in a real circuit.

You can even pluck a few from the board.


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## macmikeman

Try using a Leviton self testing gfi receptacle someplace in the circuit. The reason I want you to do that is because I am evil and want genocide for all the Leviton gfi self testing receptacle outlets that want to commit suicide. Give them their wish.


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## macmikeman

telsa said:


> I don't pull service work....
> 
> But if I did, I'd have these cheap-a$$ ferrous toroids automatically installed when variable speed// solid state drivers are involved.
> 
> They are as cheap as WIRE NUTS... and ought to be installed right in the j-box while you're hooking these puppies up. They are small.
> 
> You'll see them festooned inside every PC's switch-mode power supply.
> 
> They are EVERYWHERE where digital switching is used.
> 
> Exception: this or that item where a few cents can be shaved.
> 
> $ 0.25 eliminates a call-back.
> 
> For me the decision is obvious.
> 
> BTW, said toroids have no impact on 60 Hertz power.
> 
> They chop off high frequency harmonics that drive OTHER solid state switching circuits crazy.
> 
> Like the ones inside your GFI breaker.
> 
> Where do you place them ? Inside the panel near the GFI breaker -- or out at the load that's generating these harmonics. You chose.
> 
> Open up an old style PC power supply to see what these look like in a real circuit.
> 
> You can even pluck a few from the board.


You are violating the listing of the equipment. And you are ''becoming the manufacturer" when you do that and setting yourself up for legal actions when someone sticks a toe into the pool and gets electrocuted. I would not think to do what you are telling the audience to do. Follow all codes when wiring a pool, plain and simple, and let the bastard who puts in a Hayword or other variable upgrade take the hit on the gfi breakers that you install. Stay legal . Stay safe. Your job when wiring a pool is to follow the NEC or the CEC. Period. Let mr. pool man take the blame, you didn't stick the stupid motor in he did.


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## Drsparky14

nrp3 said:


> I see the pentair ones on amazon. Probably what it is. Sucks, cause now you probably need a seperate enclosure for the Siemens breaker if you don't have a Siemens panel to land it in. Better than it constantly tripping too.




The pentair panels are UL listed for GE, Homeline, BR, Siemens, etc 


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## nrp3

Or one of those. Those panels with multiple breaker brands are helpful.


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## MechanicalDVR

Drsparky14 said:


> The pentair panels are UL listed for GE, Homeline, BR, Siemens, etc
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


All well and good but if you need one or two of a specifically specified breaker it will still add the cost of the sub panel an install to a simple pump change out.


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## Drsparky14

MechanicalDVR said:


> All well and good but if you need one or two of a specifically specified breaker it will still add the cost of the sub panel an install to a simple pump change out.




Yes it will. I will prob out of curiosity install a regular breaker in one and then install a faceless GFCI in the circuit. I wonder if that trips...


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## MechanicalDVR

Drsparky14 said:


> Yes it will. I will prob out of curiosity install a regular breaker in one and then install a faceless GFCI in the circuit. I wonder if that trips...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If we are still talking variable speed pool pumps the ones I've installed were 240v.


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## Pool Electrician

Pentair recommends that installers use their GFCI breakers PNA220GF on VFD pumps.

They have a slightly higher trip point to prevent false tripping (that occurs with generic GFCI breakers).


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## nrp3

I haven't anything since I installed their specific one, so that solved the problem as far as I know.


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## overfused123

telsa said:


> I can't get past the fact that commentariat can't figure out that the SOLID STATE LOGIC of the GFCI is easily tripped out by noise -- by ultra-high frequency transients.
> 
> These are almost totally repressed by ferrous toroids -- which is WHY ferrous toroids are produced by the million every day.
> 
> You're dealing with UNFILTERED circuits.
> 
> GET IT ?
> 
> The filters cost about $0.25 or less.
> 
> Would everybody stop their kvetching ? Please ?


 i think the manufacturer of these pumps should be installing these *ferrous toroids, then can use any GFCI breakers*


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## Drsparky14

Siemens gfci breakers are what Work. The pentair breakers are just rebranded Siemens ones with a higher price tag 


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## kysparky

From Seimens product literature

Features and Benefits

Enlarge
Suitable for a variety of construction applications: spas, hot tubs, kitchens, bathrooms, etc.

Resists false tripping (shielded to prevent RF interference)

Standard 1 inch per pole format with bolt-on design

Provides Class A GFCI protection


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## GatorIE

binyamingavriel said:


> Hello all,
> I'm not an electrician, but I do have a similar problem with my pump. I have a Pentair VS pump that seems to trip the breaker all the time. I'm looking into replacing the breaker with the Siemens one, but have a couple of questions. The pump is dual voltage, and as the previous one was 115V, that's how this one is wired.
> Does the single pole version of this breaker provide the same benefit of I keep the pump on the 115 setting? If so, would it still make sense to switch it over to 220V at this point once I'm switching the breaker? (I assume that if it's only the dual pole breaker that eliminates the tripping problem then I have no choice).
> Thank you in advance


If you are not an electrician, you have violated the terms and conditions of the forum when you signed up. In general, it is a very bad idea for unqualified individuals to work with electrical systems. 

That risk increases substantially when you involve water, as is the case of your pool problem. I'm a member of the large group of people who believe it's downright stupid for an unqualified individual to wire up any device connected (directly or indirectly) to a big basin of water full of people. The risk of injury or death is simply too high for any reasonable person to advise you on how to resolve your issue.

Please consult a licensed electrical contractor to resolve your issue, as there are lives and livelihoods at stake here. It's not worth saving a couple hundred bucks when the outcome could lead to the loss of so much more.


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## kb1jb1

To all the electricians who mentioned " Ferrous Toroids " thank you. 35 years and I never heard of them used in our industry. Only electronics. Do they serve the same purpose as reactors installed for larger VFDs? I now have a personal research project to do today. Any suggested reading?


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## kb1jb1

macmikeman said:


> You are violating the listing of the equipment. And you are ''becoming the manufacturer" when you do that and setting yourself up for legal actions when someone sticks a toe into the pool and gets electrocuted. I would not think to do what you are telling the audience to do. Follow all codes when wiring a pool, plain and simple, and let the bastard who puts in a Hayword or other variable upgrade take the hit on the gfi breakers that you install. Stay legal . Stay safe. Your job when wiring a pool is to follow the NEC or the CEC. Period. Let mr. pool man take the blame, you didn't stick the stupid motor in he did.


While I agree with what you are saying about modifying equipment, are these toroids something that is added much like a surge protector installed on a pool panel? I am not familiar with them yet. It seems that they filter out the nuisance high frequency noise. Things would be much easier if we could do our jobs and not the manufacturer's job.


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## binyamingavriel

GatorIE said:


> [q
> 
> If you are not an electrician, you have violated the terms and conditions of the forum when you signed up. In general, it is a very bad idea for unqualified individuals to work with electrical systems.
> 
> That risk increases substantially when you involve water, as is the case of your pool problem. I'm a member of the large group of people who believe it's downright stupid for an unqualified individual to wire up any device connected (directly or indirectly) to a big basin of water full of people. The risk of injury or death is simply too high for any reasonable person to advise you on how to resolve your issue.
> 
> Please consult a licensed electrical contractor to resolve your issue, as there are lives and livelihoods at stake here. It's not worth saving a couple hundred bucks when the outcome could lead to the loss of so much more.


My apologies for not realizing at the time that this forum is only for pros. Rest assured that I would never attempt anything like this as a DIY project. I was just looking for information to make an informed decision about which breaker to purchase. I will have my electrician do all the work. I just wanted to get some input from those who have dealt with this specific issue, as it was news to my local electricians (understandable as it seems like a rare problem in the scheme of things).
I would appreciate it if anyone could point me in the right direction to get a better understanding of the issue so I can make an informed decision with my electrician as to how to proceed. 
Thanks


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## paulengr

kb1jb1 said:


> To all the electricians who mentioned " Ferrous Toroids " thank you. 35 years and I never heard of them used in our industry. Only electronics. Do they serve the same purpose as reactors installed for larger VFDs? I now have a personal research project to do today. Any suggested reading?




A GFCI measures common mode current. So if I take a very sensitive flexible probe current meter and wrap it around L and N, I’m measuring L+N. With sine waves and no faults this is ZERO. If there is a ground fault some current leaks through ground so L+N equals the fault current, With devices that can store energy such as drives also at least temporarily L+N might not equal zero. This happens constantly in drives so it caused GFCIs to nuisance trip unless they are designed specifically to ignore drive induced currents.

I hate to call toroids anything special. Toroids or rings have the advantage that unlike a rod or rectangular inductor the magnetic field is contained inside the loop so they are naturally higher performance and naturally shielded, They get more efficient the higher the magnetic permeability of the core (air, iron, ferries, or nanocrystalline glass metal). One winding is a “reactor” or inductor. Two windings can be a transformer or a single phase common mode filter. It doesn’t even have to be an actual “winding”. At high frequencies they are usually pretty efficient with semi exotic powdered iron alloy cores (ferrites) with just a single winding...just pass the wires through a donut. This is what you see all the time in electronics.

But they’re filters. I doubt it’s enough to knock amps of current down to microamos that can scoot by a GFCI. If it did it would get pretty hot and suck a lot of current.


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