# AFCIs in dining rooms



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

It looks like they want 4 -20 amp circuits two for the kitchen two for the dining room.


Can you find a link to AFCI Recptacles


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> Can you find a link to AFCI Recptacles


Probably not :laughing: All I can really do is cite Exceptions 1 and 2 to 210.12(A) in the 2011 NEC.



> Exception No. 1: If RMC, IMC, EMT, Type MC, or steel
> armored Type AC cables meeting the requirements of
> 250.118 and metal outlet and junction boxes are installed
> for the portion of the branch circuit between the branchcircuit
> ...


Kind of interesting that the code makes references to a product that isn't even readily available yet. Maybe that's what happens when the manufacturers go ahead and get themselves a position on the code-making panel?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

What's wrong with 2 20a SABCs, both hitting the c'tops w/ GFI-receptale protection, and one of the SABCs on an AFCI breaker so it can feed the DR receps?


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

480sparky said:


> What's wrong with 2 20a SABCs, both hitting the c'tops w/ GFI-receptale protection, and one of the SABCs on an AFCI breaker so it can feed the DR receps?


That's pretty much what option #1 was. Basically it would be the same way I've wired them in the past, except on an AFCI breaker.

I don't do much residential construction so I'm a bit limited on those particular experiences


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

erics37 said:


> That's pretty much what option #1 was. Basically it would be the same way I've wired them in the past, except on an AFCI breaker.
> 
> I don't do much residential construction so I'm a bit limited on those particular experiences



The two SABCs are both required to serve the c'tops. That doesn't mean they're limited to there. Although most divide the c'top receps evenly between the two, there's no requirement to do so. 

If you have 6 required receps on the c'top, one SABC could supply 5 of them and the other SABC supply the other. But most of us would do a 3/3 split.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

480sparky said:


> The two SABCs are both required to serve the c'tops. That doesn't mean they're limited to there. Although most divide the c'top receps evenly between the two, there's no requirement to do so.
> 
> If you have 6 required receps on the c'top, one SABC could supply 5 of them and the other SABC supply the other. But most of us would do a 3/3 split.


And then just pick one of them arbitrarily and take it around to the dining room/pantry/whatever else, and put it on an AFCI?


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## Al13Cu29 (Nov 2, 2010)

erics37 said:


> And then just pick one of them arbitrarily and take it around to the dining room/pantry/whatever else, and put it on an AFCI?


Most AHJ around here, limits the number of countertop receptacles to 3 or 4 to a circuit. For most kitchens, the two circuits will cover that, along with the refrigerator and gas range or cooktop. That's when I would bring in another 20A circuit for the dining room and other areas (up to 12 receptacles) on a AFCI breaker.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

I would just run a separate circuit to the dining room as I have always done in the past. If there is a breakfast nook then I tie that to the dining room.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

erics37 said:


> And then just pick one of them arbitrarily and take it around to the dining room/pantry/whatever else, and put it on an AFCI?


I usually brought both SABCs out to the dinning room.




Al13Cu29 said:


> Most AHJ around here, limits the number of countertop receptacles to 3 or 4 to a circuit. For most kitchens, the two circuits will cover that, along with the refrigerator and gas range or cooktop. That's when I would bring in another 20A circuit for the dining room and other areas (up to 12 receptacles) on a AFCI breaker.


So .... these AHJs .... do they have a written amendment or do they just make this stuff up as they go?

There is nothing in the NEC that limits the number of receptacles on a residential branch circuit.


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

BBQ said:


> I usually brought both SABCs out to the dinning room.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


:laughing:...Here we go again...This should be fun.


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## Al13Cu29 (Nov 2, 2010)

BBQ said:


> So .... these AHJs .... do they have a written amendment or do they just make this stuff up as they go?
> 
> There is nothing in the NEC that limits the number of receptacles on a residential branch circuit.


Written amendment? Yes.

Make stuff up? No.

Not in the NEC. Correct.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

Thanks for the pointers, y'all.

Does anyone know the reasoning why a dining room is supposed to be supplied by an SABC? My dining room never has anything plugged into it.

Is it for people with food warmers and fondue pots and stuff?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

erics37 said:


> Thanks for the pointers, y'all.
> 
> Does anyone know the reasoning why a dining room is supposed to be supplied by an SABC? My dining room never has anything plugged into it.
> 
> Is it for people with food warmers and fondue pots and stuff?



I've seen many a toaster & coffee pot on the dining room table.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

Besides never having seen an AFCI receptacle, you have to run the first portion of the branch in some form of metal conduit. What a joke.


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## Al13Cu29 (Nov 2, 2010)

InPhase277 said:


> Besides never having seen an AFCI receptacle, you have to run the first portion of the branch in some form of metal conduit. What a joke.


There was a proposal for the 2011 code change to have that remove. Is was approved but disallowed since the quorum was not met.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

I like option #2.



> 2) Run 2 small appliance circuits to the kitchen like normal, then run a third S.A. circuit from an AFCI breaker to feed only the dining room, breakfast nook, and similar areas not needing to be GFCI protected,


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## itsunclebill (Jan 16, 2007)

Al13Cu29 said:


> Most AHJ around here, limits the number of counter top receptacles to 3 or 4 to a circuit.


Having done a little work on the front range, I'm aware of 3 jurisdictions that require this. That's hardly "most" as last time I counted my registrations I have 52 or so. Which jurisdictions do you work in?


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## Jpelectricalsolution (Dec 16, 2010)

Well here they require everything that is not GFCI protected to have an AFCI breaker. Also every room to have it's own circuit.


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## electrictim510 (Sep 9, 2008)

Jpelectricalsolution said:


> Well here they require everything that is not GFCI protected to have an AFCI breaker. Also every room to have it's own circuit.


This sounds like a misinterpretation. Requiring a circuit per room is a HUGE overkill!


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Jpelectricalsolution said:


> ........ Also every room to have it's own circuit.



Dumb. Dumb. Dumb. Dumb.

So a receptacle in a hallway must have it's own circuit? What do you do for baths... use one 20a circuit for each bathroom? One circuit for a light in a walk-in closet? Another circuit just for the light in the laundry?

Dumb, I tells ya..... Dumb!


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## Malaking_TT (Dec 17, 2010)

Since we don't GFI the refer you could come out of this J-box and go to the dining area then AFI the entire circuit. SABC would be GFI'd at the first countertop receptacle and downstream from there.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

AFCI junk will go over very well serving toasters and counter appliances, I can hear customers screaming, get it out! right now.


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## egads (Sep 1, 2009)

They are taking the spark out of Sparky


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Jpelectricalsolution said:


> Well here they require everything that is not GFCI protected to have an AFCI breaker. Also every room to have it's own circuit.


That's absurd, how many circuits do you end up with , filling a 40 ckt panel for a four bedroom house.


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## Jpelectricalsolution (Dec 16, 2010)

That is the way it is here. All the new homes you open up the panel box and all you see are AFCI breakers, accept 2 pole breakers and GFCI protected circuits. We have a service to do in the city of houston that is going to cost the people almost $300 more to do because we have to install 6 AFCI breakers with their new service. It is absolutely absurd but when the inspector says the way it is, that is the way it has to be done period.


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## Jpelectricalsolution (Dec 16, 2010)

Also a new here is all plugs installed must be tamper proof as well.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Jpelectricalsolution said:


> Also a new here is all plugs installed must be tamper proof as well.


 Yes that has been in there since the 2008 NEC..


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Jpelectricalsolution said:


> Also a new here is all plugs installed must be *tamper proof* as well.


How do you plug anything in? :no:


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## davis9 (Mar 21, 2009)

I usually just run one of the SABC to the Dining room first then hit the Counter top and begin GFCI protection. Not sure what the concern of the OP is here? I haven't had any probs with callbacks with this set-up.

Tom


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

Jpelectricalsolution said:


> Well here they require everything that is not GFCI protected to have an AFCI breaker. Also every room to have it's own circuit.



This is starting to look like we need a link to the amendments.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

leland said:


> This is starting to look like we need a link to the amendments.


Yeah. Sounds like a load of crapolla.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

This code is complete BS.


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## nikole95 (Jan 16, 2011)

480sparky said:


> I've seen many a toaster & coffee pot on the dining room table.


Besides never having seen an AFCI receptacle, you have to run the first portion of the branch in some form of metal conduit. What a joke.


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## Jpelectricalsolution (Dec 16, 2010)

electricmanscott said:


> How do you plug anything in? :no:


It's a bitch. Testing is a pain in the ass as well with a digital meter.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

nikole95 said:


> Besides never having seen an AFCI receptacle, you have to run the first portion of the branch in some form of metal conduit. What a joke.



Not really. The intent is to be able to AFCI protect circuits in old panels like Federal Pacific, Bulldog & Zinsco. Reroute the circuit to a box next to the panel & install an AFCI receptacle.


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## Jpelectricalsolution (Dec 16, 2010)

Shockdoc said:


> That's absurd, how many circuits do you end up with , filling a 40 ckt panel for a four bedroom house.


Typical house like mine 3 bed 2 bath you will have on average 5-6 AFCI breakers your 2 baths are gfci protected as well as all counter top plugs in kitchen. Garage GFCI protected and so is your outdoor ckt. Appliance circuits are not GFCI or AFCI protected even though I had an inspector tell me to put GFCI's for the washer and dryer because they were within 6' of a water source.


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