# Open Neutral simplified?



## JacobiusWrex (Aug 3, 2015)

Hey guys

Last night I went on a call to a house where the homeowner complained of flickering lights and appliances not working. She went to show me how the dishwasher wasn't working and opened it and water spilled all over the floor.
Whenever she tries to drain it with the drain button, you can hear the motor trying to start but not starting and simultaneously the lights flicker to the pulse of the motor.

OK no big deal right? all the lights seemed fine except when the dishwasher was running; I thought, get a new dishwasher, done. I go to pop the panel in the basement just to make sure the voltages are good everywhere and notice that the panel has been soaked in the water that spilled out of the dishwasher just above. ABSOLUTELY soaked.. Water dripping out of the bottom... At this moment, I looked around the area and get the feeling like this is not the first time this has happened. I cautiously proceed to remove the cover and try to start drying it out with a hair drier and a shop-vac, while fashioning a shield above the panel to direct the water away from the panel. After about an hour, I started to check voltages, (some breakers are either just bad or being back-fed, in the off position voltages between 5 and 50v). The mains read 120 between L1 and L2. L1 to ground is jumping all over the place between 30v and 110v, L2 is holding steady at 120v. I pop outside and pop the meter and am getting the same thing on the line side. 
I left the house with all the breakers with the crazy L1 voltage OFF. 
The other phase I left on until I can come back today.

Where is the most logical place to start?
Disconnect neutral in meter can for a quick test if it stabilizes from the pole?
I have a feeling there are a lot of possible bad neutrals in this 1940s house and I am looking for a logic place to start. I plan to replace the panel but I want to make sure I understand how to chase these open neutrals down before I start getting the power company involved.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

120v from L1 to L2 is not a neutral issue.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

1) Recurrent water baths = remove and rebuild the panel -- elsewhere.

2) Figure on her water ejection path from the dishwasher to be totally befouled.

Is this home fed via fused OCPD -- such that one leg could blow while the other leg remains hot?

I had to ask.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

It is very hard to understand how you are testing. You need to first turn off the main or go the line side of the meter and see what voltages you have. If the voltage read normal on the load side of the meter I would then put a load on the house and test the voltage. The numbers you state don't add up but if you measure it with a load that may be an issue. You may have a bad phase not a bad neutral

A bad neutral usually will show one leg high to ground and the other low-- such as 180v on one leg and 60 on the other, It always adds up to the voltage that the power company delivers -- In this case, 240V. If one leg read 200V to ground then the other would be 40v to ground.

Again it is all in how you measure-- with or without load


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## JacobiusWrex (Aug 3, 2015)

Ok telsa

Well the power comes off the pole, to the meter, into this old federal pacific panel with breaker ties for all the 2 poles. The "main" section (as indicated by the panel diagram) shows that the first few breakers are always fed power; no "main breaker" and there is a 2 pole that feeds the lights and plugs on the single poles below the "main" section. 
something like this..









I see no fuses to create the situation you speak of, all of the 2-poles in the panel have breaker-ties. Everything on that whacky phase has the whacky voltage. 

In response to your points
Since the dishwasher was right above the panel and all of the circuits and the service were fed through the top of the panel I guess that puts this into the category of a complete rewire and panel-swap, dishwasher swap? 
Thanks for your time


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## JacobiusWrex (Aug 3, 2015)

Dennis Alwon said:


> It is very hard to understand how you are testing. You need to first turn off the main or go the line side of the meter and see what voltages you have. If the voltage read normal on the load side of the meter I would then put a load on the house and test the voltage. The numbers you state don't add up but if you measure it with a load that may be an issue. You may have a bad phase not a bad neutral
> 
> A bad neutral usually will show one leg high to ground and the other low-- such as 180v on one leg and 60 on the other, It always adds up to the voltage that the power company delivers -- In this case, 240V. If one leg read 200V to ground then the other would be 40v to ground.
> 
> Again it is all in how you measure-- with or without load


 thanks for the response,

I turned off all the breakers because I don't have a "main" that kills everything in this panel, and had that crazy jumping voltage on L1 to N, Line side of meter, meter disconnected.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

JacobiusWrex said:


> Ok telsa
> 
> Well the power comes off the pole, to the meter, into this old federal pacific panel with breaker ties for all the 2 poles. The "main" section (as indicated by the panel diagram) shows that the first few breakers are always fed power; no "main breaker" and there is a 2 pole that feeds the lights and plugs on the single poles below the "main" section.
> something like this..
> ...



You have a split-buss panel.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

JacobiusWrex said:


> Ok telsa
> 
> Well the power comes off the pole, to the meter, into this old federal pacific panel with breaker ties for all the 2 poles. The "main" section (as indicated by the panel diagram) shows that the first few breakers are always fed power; no "main breaker" and there is a 2 pole that feeds the lights and plugs on the single poles below the "main" section.
> something like this..
> ...


You're describing the once common Split Bus Panel.

These were produced during the period when big MAIN C/Bs were either non-existent or priced into orbit.

The top of the split bus would be (typ.) full of two-pole C/Bs -- with SIX throws being the limit. 

One of those six would shunt power down to the lower rails/ busing which is where all 120 VAC circuits would be brought. These were not limited to the six-throw rule.

My Sister has just such a scheme in her 1962 era home. It has two 175 A fuses out at the meter in front of the top bus feed.

I'd recheck that spot. Old fashioned OCPD fuse boxes such as this style don't 'pop out' at you. 

A blown MAIN fuse would explain many of your weird readings. 

Two-pole circuits are commonly resistive. (Ovens, water heaters) They provide a route for L1 to energize L2 -- or vice versa. 

You'd need to kill EVERY two-pole breaker to spot a dead hot leg.

Or, you could pull the voltage between the hots -- with all loads off except a two-pole resistive circuit -- the voltage difference will collapse to zero. ( With nowhere to go, the voltage pulls the dead leg UP to full voltage. 

But any loads pulling current from that dependent rail will run in SERIES with the two-pole resistive circuit. For trivial loads, they will seem fine. As you load up the rail, its voltage plunges.

&&&&&

She's not the sharpest knife in the drawer if she's not hip to the fact that her dishwasher discharge is CLOGGED. The water can come in, but it can't be ejected.

That's the original source for her blues.

The waterfall through her panel should've blown at least one MAINs fuse -- out near the meter, I'd guess.

You have to poke around to find out what's actually been installed.

The further in the panel is from the exterior Service, the more unlikely it was so placed without exterior fusing.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

This seems really simple, to me. The voltages were wacky in the meter can, right? Call the power company. It's their baby now. Problem solved.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

JacobiusWrex said:


> Hey guys
> 
> Last night I went on a call to a house where the homeowner complained of flickering lights and appliances not working. She went to show me how the dishwasher wasn't working and opened it and water spilled all over the floor.
> Whenever she tries to drain it with the drain button, you can hear the motor trying to start but not starting and simultaneously the lights flicker to the pulse of the motor.
> ...


So far I did not get past the first paragraph. If a dishwasher allows the water within to flow onto the floor when you open the door there is a problem with the washer.


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## JacobiusWrex (Aug 3, 2015)

RIVETER said:


> So far I did not get past the first paragraph. If a dishwasher allows the water within to flow onto the floor when you open the door there is a problem with the washer.


Washer was on bad phase only getting 90v half working

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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

JacobiusWrex said:


> Washer was on bad phase only getting 90v half working
> 
> Sent from my LGLS990 using Tapatalk


So the water valve "sucked it up"?


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## JacobiusWrex (Aug 3, 2015)

RIVETER said:


> So the water valve "sucked it up"?


Exactly

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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

JacobiusWrex said:


> Exactly
> 
> Sent from my LGLS990 using Tapatalk


Okay, if the water valve did not have enough voltage to bring it in how did the water level get so high as to flow onto the floor?


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## JacobiusWrex (Aug 3, 2015)

RIVETER said:


> Okay, if the water valve did not have enough voltage to bring it in how did the water level get so high as to flow onto the floor?


The next day the L1 leg to ground stabilized at 90v. That's the phase it was on.. Waiting for POCO now. 

So when your dishwasher is getting 90v you put on your Mario costume?

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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

JacobiusWrex said:


> The next day the L1 leg to ground stabilized at 90v. That's the phase it was on.. Waiting for POCO now.
> 
> So when your dishwasher is getting 90v you put on your Mario costume?
> 
> Sent from my LGLS990 using Tapatalk


No need to get stinky. If ANY coil requires 120 volts to pull in it will take something fairly close in voltage to do that. Have you measured that particular phase at the panel for voltage? AND, when you use the term Voltage Stabilization...how do you know that except for your "real time" measuring?


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## JacobiusWrex (Aug 3, 2015)

RIVETER said:


> No need to get stinky. If ANY coil requires 120 volts to pull in it will take something fairly close in voltage to do that. Have you measured that particular phase at the panel for voltage? AND, when you use the term Voltage Stabilization...how do you know that except for your "real time" measuring?


Dude get past the first paragraph, yeah I had a very jumpy unstable reading on the phase it was on last night when the panel was soaking wet. Today it has dried and one phase is stable at 90v the other is at 120v. The meter is dead and i have those stable incorrect voltages at line side of meter with all load disconnected. All I meant by stabilization is the auto ranging meter lands on a number and stays there

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## JacobiusWrex (Aug 3, 2015)

Thanks for the kick in the tail though I just switched the dishwasher to the other phase in the panel and it worked like a charm! Once the POCO fixes their end the homeowner knows get dishwasher is good at least

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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

JacobiusWrex said:


> Thanks for the kick in the tail though I just switched the dishwasher to the other phase in the panel and it worked like a charm! Once the POCO fixes their end the homeowner knows get dishwasher is good at least
> 
> Sent from my LGLS990 using Tapatalk


Just trying to be of service.:thumbsup:


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## JacobiusWrex (Aug 3, 2015)

telsa said:


> You're describing the once common Split Bus Panel.
> 
> These were produced during the period when big MAIN C/Bs were either non-existent or priced into orbit.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the informative response!

I dig around for a fuse box but found nothing the meter is directly above the panel outside the house.

I killed all breakers the next day and got 90v to ground on L1, 120v on L2 and 45v between phases from main lugs in panel.

The line side of meter (meter disconnected)is reading 24v L1 to ground.. and 90v with the meter plugged in. 45V between phases. The meter seems to be off or broken and it also seems like bad juice off the pole

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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

Only one thing to add:

Don't get too hung up on the voltage readings, with a digital meter the numbers are not always applicable to real life situation anyway. As soon as you realize one leg is "bad," fix it or have poco fix. Then, once everything is working like it should, take voltage readings to your heart's content.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

readydave8 said:


> Only one thing to add:
> 
> Don't get too hung up on the voltage readings, with a digital meter the numbers are not always applicable to real life situation anyway. As soon as you realize one leg is "bad," fix it or have poco fix. Then, once everything is working like it should, take voltage readings to your heart's content.


Right. The OP was/is seriously overthinking this. Bad voltages on the meter line side.... stop. Call PoCo. Your work here is done.


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## JacobiusWrex (Aug 3, 2015)

MDShunk said:


> Right. The OP was/is seriously overthinking this. Bad voltages on the meter line side.... stop. Call PoCo. Your work here is done.


It happened in a stupid chain of events for mee, once I saw the panel dripping water out the bottom I thought it could have been a problem in the house, but once I saw it on line side of meter with a dry panel I knew. I agree this one got me all bugged out at first!

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## BT Electric (Feb 7, 2014)

Jacobius,
One suggestion for troubleshooting these types of issues, get you a nice low Z analog meter like a Simpson 260. Mine gets used much more than my Fluke 87 ever does.
My everyday meter is a T5-1000 and when it's readings look strange, out comes the Simpson. 


BT Electric


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

BT Electric said:


> Jacobius,
> One suggestion for troubleshooting these types of issues, get you a nice low Z analog meter like a Simpson 260. Mine gets used much more than my Fluke 87 ever does.
> My everyday meter is a T5-1000 and when it's readings look strange, out comes the Simpson.
> 
> ...


*
Hear, hear!*


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## JacobiusWrex (Aug 3, 2015)

BT Electric said:


> Jacobius,
> One suggestion for troubleshooting these types of issues, get you a nice low Z analog meter like a Simpson 260. Mine gets used much more than my Fluke 87 ever does.
> My everyday meter is a T5-1000 and when it's readings look strange, out comes the Simpson.
> 
> ...


Great tip I will be looking to buy one soon!

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## 3DDesign (Oct 25, 2014)

As soon as I see a split buss panel, I recommend replacing it.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

3DDesign said:


> As soon as I see a split buss panel, I recommend replacing it.


*Hear, hear !*


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## Spunk#7 (Nov 30, 2012)

I use a "Beast" anytime funky readings appear. The only "moving coil gadget" still in my collection is a Timco thumper. I agree with MD,call the POCO.


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