# SER Cable in Conduit



## HackWork

Yes, you can run it inside wherever you want including floor joists. The only issue that might arise is the bend radius in the LB's.

Since the SER cable can be ran outside I assume you are only using the PVC for a sleeve for protection? In that case, you don't need the LB's other than for looks. Is there any way to do it without them?


----------



## Roger123

The SE Conductor is usually attached to the bottom of the floor joists. Real hard for that size to run it through the joists and also would required some pretty big holes.

It may be a code violation to bend the SER in the LBs, "some kind of a bending violation" but done everyday.


----------



## HackWork

Roger123 said:


> The SE Conductor is usually attached to the bottom of the floor joists. Real hard for that size to run it through the joists and also would required some pretty big holes.


 #4 SER is pretty small and I use 1 1/8" DareDevil spade bits to make holes when running it. 1" may work, but why fight it.



> It may be a code violation to bend the SER in the LBs, "some kind of a bending violation" but done everyday.


Forgetting the NEC violations, the question is whether it is possible to make the bend without damaging the cable. I have never tried it myself. I would probably step up to 2" if I needed to use LB's. But I would probably just run the SER cable up the side of the house without the PVC sleeve at all.


----------



## Roger123

What we need is for the manufactures to make a PVC Mogul LB.


----------



## Roger123

HackWork said:


> Forgetting the NEC violations, the question is whether it is possible to make the bend without damaging the cable. I have never tried it myself.


I have and will continue to bend SE into the lbs. without damage. On the #4 SER Cable I use 1-1/4" LBs, and again w/o damage.

I do have a number of tools to help bend the cable through the LBs.


----------



## Roger123

Here is one tool Hack:

http://www.rack-a-tiers.com/product/218/The-Bulldog-Original-Bender


----------



## A Little Short

backstay said:


> I haven't run SE cable, so I have a question. I'm feeding a sub panel and the run will take it outside then back in again. 4-4-4-6 SER .82 OD. I figured 1-1/2" sch 80 PVC. Conduit run is less than ten feet with a LB on each end. Also, is SE run inside through the floor joists? In over 30 years I've never used the stuff.


You didn't mention if any of the run will be underground. You can use SER in conduit but can't run it underground in or out of conduit.


----------



## sbrn33

Roger123 said:


> Here is one tool Hack:
> 
> http://www.rack-a-tiers.com/product/218/The-Bulldog-Original-Bender


If you brought that out around me I would seriously hurt myself as I fell down laughing and making fun of you.


----------



## Dennis Alwon

I blieve an 1 1/2" lb would be compliant however you could use an adapter and use a 2" LB. The LB should state what size it is good for. It is usually marked inside the LB. I hink 2" PVC LB's are good for 3- 4/0 conductors


----------



## HackWork

Dennis Alwon said:


> I blieve an 1 1/2" lb would be compliant however you could use an adapter and use a 2" LB. The LB should state what size it is good for. It is usually marked inside the LB. I hink 2" PVC LB's are good for 3- 4/0 conductors


When it comes to what the LB lists what can be installed inside, wouldn't cable be different than multiple separate conductors? I know it's hard to bend cable.


----------



## sbrn33

I would use 2 inch for sure. I freaking hate 11/2" pretty much the same price as 2"


----------



## backstay

Great info from everyone! The run is all above ground. The have an old fuse panel in a kitchen cabinet. It's fed overhead. They put in a well and septic, so two 120 volt circuits and a 240 circuit. I'm installing a new 200 amp underground service in the basement. From that, I'm running up to the old panel. I don't want to try to fish it inside the wall because it's so high up. I figured I'd just pop out side and then back in where the overhead already comes in. So conduit is for physical protection and looks.


----------



## Dennis Alwon

HackWork said:


> When it comes to what the LB lists what can be installed inside, wouldn't cable be different than multiple separate conductors? I know it's hard to bend cable.


A gray area for sure but here is where the authority having jurisdiction should use his common sense. What I would do is figure the sq.in of the conductors stated inside the LB and as long as the cable isn't larger.


----------



## sbrn33

Probably lucky I am not your inspector.I would not let you refeed that panel. I would make you run new circuits or a conduit to the old panel and either use is a a J-box or refeed them somehow. 
As a contractor now ****ing way I leave that panel inside a kitchen cabinet.


----------



## HackWork

Dennis Alwon said:


> A gray area for sure but here is where the authority having jurisdiction should use his common sense. What I would do is figure the sq.in of the conductors stated inside the LB and as long as the cable isn't larger.


Gotcha.

I never tried it myself, but since you guys said that #4 SER will easily fit inside of the 1 1/2" PVC LB, then it sounds like backstay's plan will be just fine.


----------



## HackWork

Roger123 said:


> Here is one tool Hack:
> 
> http://www.rack-a-tiers.com/product/218/The-Bulldog-Original-Bender


I've never used those, but I do use the 2" LB "Shoehorn" all the time.

Getting 4/0 SE cable into an LB sucks without one.


----------



## backstay

sbrn33 said:


> Probably lucky I am not your inspector.I would not let you refeed that panel. I would make you run new circuits or a conduit to the old panel and either use is a a J-box or refeed them somehow.
> As a contractor now ****ing way I leave that panel inside a kitchen cabinet.


You'd have to give me a code ref to make me change it. A lot of old houses around here have panels in kitchen cupboards. I didn't install it, I'm not pulling it. I don't t have to bring the rest of the house up to code. If you worked on a house where they put something in front of the panel, do you gut it and install a new one some place else? I've worked over the top of washing machines, freezers, water softeners. Never moved those panels either.


----------



## Dennis Alwon

Roger123 said:


> Here is one tool Hack:
> 
> http://www.rack-a-tiers.com/product/218/The-Bulldog-Original-Bender


Real men don't use those toys. We bend it with our hands...:laughing:


----------



## sbrn33

backstay said:


> You'd have to give me a code ref to make me change it. A lot of old houses around here have panels in kitchen cupboards. I didn't install it, I'm not pulling it. I don't t have to bring the rest of the house up to code. If you worked on a house where they put something in front of the panel, do you gut it and install a new one some place else? I've worked over the top of washing machines, freezers, water softeners. Never moved those panels either.


If you are going to refeed that panel it needs to be brought up to code. A panel in a kitchen cabinet would not meet the clearances required.


----------



## Roger123

Dennis Alwon said:


> Real men don't use those toys. We bend it with our hands...:laughing:


Now you hurt my feeling, you.....you....big bully!


----------



## HackWork

sbrn33 said:


> If you are going to refeed that panel it needs to be brought up to code. A panel in a kitchen cabinet would not meet the clearances required.


Yeah, re-feeding the panel would require it to be changed, unlike just coming out of it with a new circuit.


----------



## Going_Commando

backstay said:


> sbrn33 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Probably lucky I am not your inspector.I would not let you refeed that panel. I would make you run new circuits or a conduit to the old panel and either use is a a J-box or refeed them somehow.
> As a contractor now ****ing way I leave that panel inside a kitchen cabinet.
> 
> 
> 
> You'd have to give me a code ref to make me change it. A lot of old houses around here have panels in kitchen cupboards. I didn't install it, I'm not pulling it. I don't t have to bring the rest of the house up to code. If you worked on a house where they put something in front of the panel, do you gut it and install a new one some place else? I've worked over the top of washing machines, freezers, water softeners. Never moved those panels either.
Click to expand...

110.26 says it cant be in a kitchen cabinet. No way I would keep it there either. Just my opinion though.


----------



## HackWork

Going_Commando said:


> 110.26 says it cant be in a kitchen cabinet. No way I would keep it there either. Just my opinion though.


This is kinda up in the air and I think left in the AHJ's lap.

The panel is existing, so it can stay. But when he re-feeds it, it becomes a new installation, which has to be by current code.


----------



## backstay

HackWork said:


> This is kinda up in the air and I think left in the AHJ's lap.
> 
> The panel is existing, so it can stay. But when he re-feeds it, it becomes a new installation, which has to be by current code.


If I was replacing the panel it would be a new installation. Changing wires doesn't make it new. If a hot wire to the panel failed would you replace it or call it a new installation? So one wire not new, two, three?


----------



## HackWork

backstay said:


> If I was replacing the panel it would be a new installation. Changing wires doesn't make it new. If a hot wire to the panel failed would you replace it or call it a new installation? So one wire not new, two, three?


Repairing a wire is different than completely refeeding it. 

What if the cable feeding a 3 prong dryer outlet got cut and you had to run a new one? Can you run a new 3 wire cable since the outlet is staying? Or do you have to upgrade it to 4 wire?

I don't think it's an easy answer, I think it depends on how the AHJ sees it.


----------



## Electek inc

What size is the over current protection on the cable?


----------



## sbrn33

Electek inc said:


> What size is the over current protection on the cable?


Why would that matter?


----------



## backstay

HackWork said:


> Repairing a wire is different than completely refeeding it.
> 
> What if the cable feeding a 3 prong dryer outlet got cut and you had to run a new one? Can you run a new 3 wire cable since the outlet is staying? Or do you have to upgrade it to 4 wire?
> 
> I don't think it's an easy answer, I think it depends on how the AHJ sees it.


No, not easy. What if you replaced five feet of it? Or twenty. What if I ran the SE to the weather head and connected there? Now nothing in the panel was touched.(we will not consider the bonding issue for this). Or how about the mast got bent and we replaced it and the wires?


----------



## HackWork

Let us know how it turns out and if the inspector says anything.


----------



## Maple_Syrup25

Go to the supplier and grab a couple different sizes of lbs, whatever it fits in without much of a fight should be good! 3x4/0 usei90 is a pain in the ass sometimes and it's to code 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## backstay

Maple_Syrup25 said:


> Go to the supplier and grab a couple different sizes of lbs, whatever it fits in without much of a fight should be good! 3x4/0 usei90 is a pain in the ass sometimes and it's to code
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


My SH is 100 miles away.


----------



## Maple_Syrup25

backstay said:


> My SH is 100 miles away.




Go into your stock and do the same thing, if you can't do that your on your own brother


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Maple_Syrup25

Maple_Syrup25 said:


> Go into your stock and do the same thing, if you can't do that, then your on your own brother
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk







Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## A Little Short

If we're doing a panel change here and the panel is in a (now) prohibited location, they allow us to replace it and leave it in the same location. 

Inspector just says: "I don't like it but it is what it is!"

These locations have been such as the OP's, in a cabinet or very small pantry or similar. I'm sure there are some instances where they would make us move it but haven't had one yet.

I did a job in a house a while back where the panel was in a corner cabinet in the basement. You had to literally lay on your belly to reach the panel. I'm certain the panel was installed on the basement wall with no cabinet but when they finished the basement it got covered by the cabinet. Pretty sure the inspector wouldn't allow that.


----------



## backstay

A Little Short said:


> If we're doing a panel change here and the panel is in a (now) prohibited location, they allow us to replace it and leave it in the same location.
> 
> Inspector just says: "I don't like it but it is what it is!"
> 
> These locations have been such as the OP's, in a cabinet or very small pantry or similar. I'm sure there are some instances where they would make us move it but haven't had one yet.
> 
> I did a job in a house a while back where the panel was in a corner cabinet in the basement. You had to literally lay on your belly to reach the panel. I'm certain the panel was installed on the basement wall with no cabinet but when they finished the basement it got covered by the cabinet. Pretty sure the inspector wouldn't allow that.


I was in a house where you had to stand in the tub to work on the panel. So what came first, the panel or the tub?


----------

