# Non-Metallic Wireways



## ChivoElDiablo (Jul 31, 2010)

I am presently working in Afghanistan on a large array of electrical systems and varying quality of products. I would like some input on the use of Panduit systems to run 120v/208v systems. Opinions are welcome and wanted...but specific code points will be used and appreciated....let the arguements fly!!!


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

ChivoElDiablo said:


> I am presently working in Afghanistan on a large array of electrical systems and varying quality of products. I would like some input on the use of Panduit systems to run 120v/208v systems. Opinions are welcome and wanted...but specific code points will be used and appreciated....let the arguements fly!!!


Panduit makes a number of products, can you be more specific?


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## TheRick (Apr 13, 2008)

*ARTICLE 378 Nonmetallic Wireways*

*378.10 Uses Permitted.*
The use of nonmetallic wireways shall be permitted in the following: 
(1) Only for exposed work, except as permitted in 378.10(4). 
(2) Where subject to corrosive environments where identified for the use. 
(3) In wet locations where listed for the purpose. 
FPN: Extreme cold may cause nonmetallic wireways to become brittle and therefore more susceptible to damage from physical contact. 
(4) As extensions to pass transversely through walls if the length passing through the wall is unbroken. Access to the conductors shall be maintained on both sides of the wall.

*378.12 Uses Not Permitted.
*Nonmetallic wireways shall not be used in the following: 
(1) Where subject to physical damage 
(2) In any hazardous (classified) location, except as permitted by other articles in this Code 
(3) Where exposed to sunlight unless listed and marked as suitable for the purpose 
(4) Where subject to ambient temperatures other than those for which nonmetallic wireway is listed 
(5) For conductors whose insulation temperature limitations would exceed those for which the nonmetallic wireway is listed



Do you have a specific question or will this cover it?


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Rick I do not think that Article applies to many of Panduits products.


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## TheRick (Apr 13, 2008)

Bob Badger said:


> Rick I do not think that Article applies to many of Panduits products.


That is true Bob, but I am assuming he is talking about the nonmetallic wire ways in wide use throughout the Iraqi and Afghanistan theaters of operation to protect branch circuit wiring in metal prefab type buildings, and existing hard structures that require complete re-wiring.

"Panduit" in my experience has become one of those manufacturer names that a lot of people just use universally.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

I just want to be clear about what we are talking about. 

A lot of Panduit 'type' products are not raceways they are wire management ducts.

This would be raceway 










http://www.panduit.com/Products/Pro...56106&N=5000001 1013+3001273&recName=FS1X1BL6


This would not be










http://www.panduit.com/Products/Pro...eId=ss_prod_wiringduct&N=5000001 1010 3001255


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## ChivoElDiablo (Jul 31, 2010)

TheRick said:


> That is true Bob, but I am assuming he is talking about the nonmetallic wire ways in wide use throughout the Iraqi and Afghanistan theaters of operation to protect branch circuit wiring in metal prefab type buildings, and existing hard structures that require complete re-wiring.
> 
> "Panduit" in my experience has become one of those manufacturer names that a lot of people just use universally.


You nailed it Rick...using it as a universal description.....my understanding, other than those points specifically mentioned above, would be the use of "panduit" type wireway without all the listed components..ie inside/outside 90's would not be accepted, could be wrong. The example that i have in mind would be using the system inside an LSS(also known as an absolution unit-shower latrine) I have voiced my dislike for the system in such units and am backed by Engineering decisions to NOT use those systems for containerized shower units BUT I am having a difficult time justifying my decision based solely in code. Those units are NOT the place to be cheap on the wireways....maintaining a solid ground fault path and protecting that path with pipe should be the deciding factor...agree??


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

I think it makes a great deal of sense to use non-conductive wireways in wet areas.

I assume a proper EGC is being run with the circuit conductors so I see no issue.


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## ChivoElDiablo (Jul 31, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> I think it makes a great deal of sense to use non-conductive wireways in wet areas.
> 
> I assume a proper EGC is being run with the circuit conductors so I see no issue.


You make a valid point Badger, but on that same note i would want to protect my EGC with a system that can not be breached easily. If you have maintained a proper ground fault path BACK TO THE SOURCE, then if you have a fault in a metallic raceway you will generate more than enough current to trip out a standard breaker (4-6) not to mention a GFCI. I have seen the plastic systems covers fall off under vibrations from normal as well as aircraft traffic not to mention Taliban donations. When that wire droops out of the wireway and your EGC comes loose from a poorly made joint you will have absolutely no way for a fault to get back the source, until Johnny soldier completes the path  Better safe than sorry!


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## TheRick (Apr 13, 2008)

I have been in Iraq a little over 20 months, and am headed home for good in September!

As far as your Panduit in an AB unit, I have seen it lots of times, I hear what you're saying I have seen some of it in pretty rough shape and still in use; covers off from low-flying aircraft and/or nearby detonations with the conductors hanging out. I would say use your judgement, as long as it is installed correctly, as a complete system it should be fine. Whenever I have seen it in an AB unit it is run where the ceiling and wall meet so it is pretty much out of the way of any physical damage. 

Until you experience the challenges of working in a war zone you just can't understand. Those at home with all the right tools and materials available, and a supply house or HD around the corner just don't get it! 

As a good friend of mine so astutely put it......"you can't make this sh!t up!"

GOOD LUCK!


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## ChivoElDiablo (Jul 31, 2010)

TheRick said:


> Until you experience the challenges of working in a war zone you just can't understand. Those at home with all the right tools and materials available, and a supply house or HD around the corner just don't get it!
> 
> As a good friend of mine so astutely put it......"you can't make this sh!t up!"
> 
> GOOD LUCK!


Good luck back in the world brother. I have seen some absolutely amazing stuff while working overseas....I tell new electricians coming over to remember that they will violate code more than comply but if they understand Ohms law basics and get those faults back to the source they will be ok, almost forgot "A ground rod doesn't do crap but make the company money, it doesn't even ref. your system like a lot believe" remember the SOURCE Luke and you will be ok


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

ChivoElDiablo said:


> almost forgot "A ground rod doesn't do crap but make the company money, it doesn't even ref. your system like a lot believe" remember the SOURCE Luke and you will be ok


Good luck to you and when you get home tell that to every electrical inspector you run across cause about 1/2 of them still don't know that.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

ChivoElDiablo said:


> Good luck back in the world brother. I have seen some absolutely amazing stuff while working overseas....I tell new electricians coming over to remember that they will violate code more than comply but if they understand Ohms law basics and get those faults back to the source they will be ok, almost forgot "A ground rod doesn't do crap but make the company money, it doesn't even ref. your system like a lot believe" remember the SOURCE Luke and you will be ok


What do you have over there? Green helpers? Grounding electrodes are a requirement, and must be installed for lightning protection. Maybe you should teach them the difference between the EGC and the GEC. Not make blanket statement "ground rods only make the company money" like you made. :whistling2:


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## TheRick (Apr 13, 2008)

I think what Chivo is referring to is the addition of thousands of grounding electrodes after soldiers started getting killed by electrocution. As everyone here knows, grounding electrodes do NOTHING to protect an individual from electric shock or electrocution. It is the equipment grounding conductor, and proper bonding of the system that facilitates the operation of the overcurrent device and prevents an electric shock or electrocution.

Yes grounding electrodes are required by the NEC, and yes they are an important part of a safe electrical system, however when your goal is to ensure our service members have a place to live, eat, sleep, and bathe free of the risk of electrocution, the ground rod kinda losses its importance!

Until you have actually been here and seen what we “deal with” on a daily basis, you just would not understand!


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## 76nemo (Aug 13, 2008)

Thank you guys for what you're doing for our boys over there. I think it's pretty f***ing righteous:thumbsup:


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

ChivoElDiablo said:


> You make a valid point Badger, but on that same note i would want to protect my EGC with a system that can not be breached easily. If you have maintained a proper ground fault path BACK TO THE SOURCE, then if you have a fault in a metallic raceway you will generate more than enough current to trip out a standard breaker (4-6) not to mention a GFCI. I have seen the plastic systems covers fall off under vibrations from normal as well as aircraft traffic not to mention Taliban donations. When that wire droops out of the wireway and your EGC comes loose from a poorly made joint you will have absolutely no way for a fault to get back the source, until Johnny soldier completes the path  Better safe than sorry!


Quality workmanship is not limited to the USA. A loose joint is a common occurrence, it seems, but it shouldn't be so. A wiring pathway that is approved for the purpose can still be compromised by a poor craftsman. The only real protection is a good education in the importance of proper electrical installations, which includes all connections, both electrical and mechanical.


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

Bob Badger said:


> I think it makes a great deal of sense to use non-conductive wireways in wet areas.
> 
> I assume a proper EGC is being run with the circuit conductors so I see no issue.


I worked with an Australian electrician, and he said everything is PVC their, and commercial wiring methods were PVC and a heavy "romex" style wire. Made sense. All the jagged conductive metal. Sounds dangerous. Although I am personally a big fan of the Metal stuff.


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