# Codes



## u2slow (Jan 2, 2014)

NEC (USA) and CEC (Canada) are nation-wide codes. These are revised every 2-4 years or so.

Each state or province - sometimes even bigger cities - make their own amendments on top.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

The NEC is not a law or even a code. It is one organization's opinion or standard which they put a lot of effort into making it a relatively safe installation standard. States do not have the resources of the NFPA or the smarts. Each state makes up their uniform construction code which becomes law. The states pay the NFPA to use their standard ( The NEC in this case ) and incorporate it into the state uniform construction code. 
At least that us how it was explained to me years ago.


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

kb1jb1 said:


> The NEC is not a law or even a code. It is one organization's opinion or standard which they put a lot of effort into making it a relatively safe installation standard. States do not have the resources of the NFPA or the smarts. Each state makes up their uniform construction code which becomes law. The states pay the NFPA to use their standard ( The NEC in this case ) and incorporate it into the state uniform construction code.
> At least that us how it was explained to me years ago.


True the NEC itself is not a law but it or a modified version of it is either law or regulation having the force of law in all 50 states and a few countries.

The standard itself is a consensus safety standard. As with all such standards it is the collective opinion of a huge number of experts. It is the definition of a code. NFPA is an organization which manages development and promotion of many consensus safety standards. However going a bit further for various reasons it is also severely vulnerable to capture by corporate entities which have perverted it. For instance despite a complete lack of scientific evidence of value and despite all the problems and massive increases in costs, it has not only not stopped or diminished AFCI requirements but instead greatly expanded them.


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## taglicious (Feb 8, 2020)

kb1jb1 said:


> The NEC is not a law or even a code. It is one organization's opinion or standard which they put a lot of effort into making it a relatively safe installation standard. States do not have the resources of the NFPA or the smarts. Each state makes up their uniform construction code which becomes law. The states pay the NFPA to use their standard ( The NEC in this case ) and incorporate it into the state uniform construction code.
> At least that us how it was explained to me years ago.


And a further breakdown of individual municipalities. I've been on the other side of the street where, a state electrical inspector, and city inspector actually argued 'their jurisdiction of the code'. It's a complicated moment when you realize that, there are officials that are under the scope, to bring in revenue as well. Be nice, Play nice, DO CLEAN WORK, say YESSIR often, and also ask thought provoking questions without disrespecting an inspector. (Even if you disagree & they may be wrong). It may eventually come back to benefit ya. Its not just the NFPA or NEC out there...

Yes, I've been on both sides lol


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

America does not like to standardize or even talk to there neighbors so you end up with county's states and government all doing there own thing. 

Its a odd system. So Nec is like the government code that is updated every few years but no county has to adopt the new version of the code with any immediate affect and they can make changes to the code by adding or subtracting certain parts. There is method in the madness as the NEC can update the code to use parts that do not exist or are not widely available as they are writing code to be used in the future and they do not expect anyone to use the code the day its printed. 

The code is also a little fluffy as you get the rule followed by the loop holes. As construction is not standardize then the rules need loop holes.


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## Norcal (Mar 22, 2007)

The NEC is only law if adopted by a jurisdiction, otherwise it's just a book compiled by a private organization.


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## taglicious (Feb 8, 2020)

gpop said:


> America does not like to standardize or even talk to there neighbors so you end up with county's states and government all doing there own thing.
> 
> Its a odd system. So Nec is like the government code that is updated every few years but no county has to adopt the new version of the code with any immediate affect and they can make changes to the code by adding or subtracting certain parts. There is method in the madness as the NEC can update the code to use parts that do not exist or are not widely available as they are writing code to be used in the future and they do not expect anyone to use the code the day its printed.
> 
> _*The code is also a little fluffy as you get the rule followed by the loop holes. As construction is not standardize then the rules need loop holes.*_


Your entire description should be on every bulletin board in every electrical classroom. That saying goes a long way.


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## 205490 (Jun 23, 2020)

I've been reminded several times by several building officers 
"Every municipality is entitled to interpret the code as they wish"


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

CA C-10 said:


> I've been reminded several times by several building officers
> "Every municipality is entitled to interpret the code as they wish"


In New York State and I believe most states are the same, every town, municipality, village has to follow the State uniform construction code. They are not supposed to make and follow what they feel is best. If they want an exception they have to appeal to the Department of State and request it and then the state legislation has to vote on it. That costs money and they have to do it every time there is a code change. Very few towns do it.


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## kbatku (Oct 18, 2011)

I was researching something and came across a town specific code somewhere (Connecticut?) that must have been written by a long-time poster here. It required that all residential receps be pigtailed, that grounds on receps be positioned facing up etc...etc... to a really granular and ridiculous level.


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## taglicious (Feb 8, 2020)

kb1jb1 said:


> In New York State and I believe most states are the same, every town, municipality, village has to follow the State uniform construction code. They are not supposed to make and follow what they feel is best. If they want an exception they have to appeal to the Department of State and request it and then the state legislation has to vote on it. That costs money and they have to do it every time there is a code change. Very few towns do it.


Thats extreme circumstances. The terms ‘guidelines’ & ‘work around’ come into play especially when having to decide on what magical feat you have to perform. Keep in mind the top 2 things while doing our trade are to protect our wire, and protect the client.


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## taglicious (Feb 8, 2020)

kbatku said:


> I was researching something and came across a town specific code somewhere (Connecticut?) that must have been written by a long-time poster here. It required that all residential receps be pigtailed, that grounds on receps be positioned facing up etc...etc... to a really granular and ridiculous level.


Well, You pigtail the grounds in every box ANYWAY I HOPE! 🤭🚨


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## wiz1997 (Mar 30, 2021)

Here in what was once a small town South of Houston, back in the 70's, when aluminum NM cable (Romex) appeared, the city code would not allow it.
Copper only.

Sometime later, after my house was built in 1971, they restricted the use of #14, it could be used for switch legs only.

Prior to rewiring most of my house, there was #14 used on receptacle circuits.
Dumb in my opinion.

Many other homes in my area were wired similar to mine, OK until someone replaces a 15 amp breaker with a 20 amp breaker.
Then the 15 amp receptacles start having issues.


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## taglicious (Feb 8, 2020)

wiz1997 said:


> Here in what was once a small town South of Houston, back in the 70's, when aluminum NM cable (Romex) appeared, the city code would not allow it.
> Copper only.
> 
> Sometime later, after my house was built in 1971, they restricted the use of #14, it could be used for switch legs only.
> ...


^^^That needs to be a topic starter!!!^^^

besides, which side would those 15A/20A receps choose?


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

CA C-10 said:


> I've been reminded several times by several building officers
> "Every municipality is entitled to interpret the code as they wish"


doesnt mean its legally adopted yet


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## 205490 (Jun 23, 2020)

I just have to decide which hills I'm ready to die on 😉


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

CA C-10 said:


> I just have to decide which hills I'm ready to die on 😉


that would be nice, to be able to pick.....as opposed to BEING picked


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## taglicious (Feb 8, 2020)

Majewski said:


> that would be nice, to be able to pick.....as opposed to BEING picked


Always with the underwear comments


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

kb1jb1 said:


> In New York State and I believe most states are the same, every town, municipality, village has to follow the State uniform construction code. They are not supposed to make and follow what they feel is best. If they want an exception they have to appeal to the Department of State and request it and then the state legislation has to vote on it. That costs money and they have to do it every time there is a code change. Very few towns do it.


You clearly don’t even understand what America is all about. The founding of this country is that we created 13 (eventually 50) autonomous governments. Within a basic framework each is free to experiment. There can be no doubt that say Utah, Massachusetts, Alaska, and Louisiana can be much different from each other. That was the point and remains so today. If you read our founding documents it starts with “In order to form a more perfect union…” Right from the start we clearly recognize we aren’t perfect.

The US was the first to have “utilities” and power systems. Edison, Tesla, and many others developed the modern electrical system here. We were the first to even have standards and codes. IEEE was founded with the idea of promoting electrical knowledge and design, not bureaucratic regulations. WE were the first, not IEC. And everything coming out of Brussels us intentionally and purposely and hopelessly screwed up and incompatible with American systems. I mean we already established 60 Hz and higher voltages and the Edison 240/120 safety system . There is less flicker and inherent safety with it yet all of Europe chose to do their own incompatible thing resulting in nothing but problems.

The American system is the direct opposite of the draconian IEC, ISO, and EN systems where you have to pay thousands to even find out what regulations you must follow. Nowhere can it be more obvious than when it comes to arc flash. The European strategy is quite literally the ostrich approach. Despite their superior attitudes European electrical safety continues to be stuck in the 19th century and is based on Brussels 19th century politics. The castles are gone but the ruling classes still rule over the serfs. “You are free to swear fealty to me” remains the prevailing attitude.

As to NEC, NFPA should clearly have their butts sued off in a huge class action suit. How else did they go from experimentally requiring a device that has been proven to do nothing for safety to elevating it to the point where the latest Code now mandates it for ALL residential breakers? The only reason this happened is the entire subpanel is nothing but manufacturer representatives who at the very least should have not been allowed to vote on products they represent. Any legal firm willing to take them on stands to make millions and the NFPA has no way to defend themselves.

Not saying IEC is all bad but let’s put it this way. With motor starters there are two competing standards. NEMA stands for “No Electrician Must Apologize”. IEC stands for “Investigate Every Clause”. One is straightforward and does not require an engineering team to understand. The other requires a lawyer on the team. Despite it all, there is virtually NO difference in practice between the two except that IEC allows multiple contact sizes within a single frame size to shave about 5% off the price. This is just one example.

Finally we have no problems with multiple third party inspection companies and indeed there is even competition among testing labs. Yet Euros allow stuff to be Listed but not tested! And they claim Americans are inferior. What a joke.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

paulengr said:


> You clearly don’t even understand what America is all about. The founding of this country is that we created 13 (eventually 50) autonomous governments. Within a basic framework each is free to experiment. There can be no doubt that say Utah, Massachusetts, Alaska, and Louisiana can be much different from each other. That was the point and remains so today. If you read our founding documents it starts with “In order to form a more perfect union…” Right from the start we clearly recognize we aren’t perfect.
> 
> The US was the first to have “utilities” and power systems. Edison, Tesla, and many others developed the modern electrical system here. We were the first to even have standards and codes. IEEE was founded with the idea of promoting electrical knowledge and design, not bureaucratic regulations. WE were the first, not IEC. And everything coming out of Brussels us intentionally and purposely and hopelessly screwed up and incompatible with American systems. I mean we already established 60 Hz and higher voltages and the Edison 240/120 safety system . There is less flicker and inherent safety with it yet all of Europe chose to do their own incompatible thing resulting in nothing but problems.
> 
> ...


I am not sure how the history lesson applies to my comment about the State establishing a standard building code for the entire State and not leaving it up to the individual towns and villages. If it was left up to the towns then you would have to worry about what side of the street you are standing on before you could start a job. The next county from where I live requires about 28 different electrical licenses and that is one reason why the State stepped in. They could not take away the multiple licensing jurisdictions but they did establish the codes that they had to follow. Imagine one house on a particular street following the 2014 NEC, the house next door following the 2017 and the house across the street following the 1999 NEC That is what we had years ago. I just picked the NEC years because I do not remember the exact years but there were three different NEC years in one county alone.

As for NEMA equipment vs IEC equipment, my 40 years as a contractor tells me that NEMA is far superior to the IEC. It is also more expensive. It is more robust. The American way of doing things was to design it and then double or triple it as a fudge factor. The IEC way is to design it for what you need with no margin of abuse. I have seen NEMA equipment last 30, 40, 50 years in very harsh environments while the IEC last only 3 or 4 years. They both serve a purpose and I do use both. Heavy use then I use NEMA. For light duty and versatility I use IEC.

Multiple third party inspections can be good but what happens more often then not is one agency enforces the electrical code while another might be lax on enforcement. If you write too many violations then the contractors move on to the next agency.


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## u2slow (Jan 2, 2014)

kb1jb1 said:


> Imagine one house on a particular street following the 2014 NEC, the house next door following the 2017 and the house across the street following the 1999 NEC That is what we had years ago.


Lol! That is what we have NOW. CEC for sure... I can only imagine NEC also does not require retroactive upgrades.

Without an obligation to retrofit old installs, it's just inflation, and penalizing those who need/want to buy or build new homes.


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## WannabeTesla (Feb 24, 2020)

kb1jb1 said:


> [...] Imagine one house on a particular street following the 2014 NEC, the house next door following the 2017 and the house across the street following the 1999 NEC That is what we had years ago. I just picked the NEC years because I do not remember the exact years but there were three different NEC years in one county alone. [...]


I get the part about different editions in the same ahj, but isn't it kind of like this anyway, depending on when the houses were built?


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Feel better?


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## 205490 (Jun 23, 2020)

In CA municipalities can & are on different code cycles, so 2 homes can literally be across one another & have different requirements. Plus different permit process, fees & requirements, those requirements are subjective relative to the building dept/inspectors interpretation.

Here's some fun ones: in 1 county to sign off final on solar install must have hardwired smokies. Another, either firepad or fully sheetrock behind flush panels on garage common wall. In 1 city flush meter mains in stucco need a lathe inspection before final inspection. 

In terms of the big picture though, once learned it's not really a big deal.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

backstay said:


> Feel better?


I do, thanks


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

WannabeTesla said:


> I get the part about different editions in the same ahj, but isn't it kind of like this anyway, depending on when the houses were built?


The problem is when you have multiple AHJ on the same street because that is the town boundaries. Back then you could have three houses being built at the same time falling under three different years of the NEC. I don't think that ever happened but I got caught on an office building back in the 1980s . I was licensed on one side of the street but the building was on the other side. A different license and a different code. 
Generally we don't gave to retro fit work unless we touch it or the State makes a mandate such as with smoke and CO detectors


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## WannabeTesla (Feb 24, 2020)

In some areas, due to covid, last code edition hasn't been adopted yet. So they can gig you for working to the new edition, even though they would "normally" have picked it up by now.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

WannabeTesla said:


> In some areas, due to covid, last code edition hasn't been adopted yet. So they can gig you for working to the new edition, even though they would "normally" have picked it up by now.


That's terrible.....if the newest codes are not adopted immediately, there will be thousands of new buildings either burning down or blowing up and millions of people getting dead!!!!

We can't let a silly virus get in the way of adopting our precious codes........


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## Norcal (Mar 22, 2007)

paulengr said:


> You clearly don’t even understand what America is all about. The founding of this country is that we created 13 (eventually 50) autonomous governments. Within a basic framework each is free to experiment. There can be no doubt that say Utah, Massachusetts, Alaska, and Louisiana can be much different from each other. That was the point and remains so today. If you read our founding documents it starts with “In order to form a more perfect union…” Right from the start we clearly recognize we aren’t perfect.
> 
> The US was the first to have “utilities” and power systems. Edison, Tesla, and many others developed the modern electrical system here. We were the first to even have standards and codes. IEEE was founded with the idea of promoting electrical knowledge and design, not bureaucratic regulations. WE were the first, not IEC. And everything coming out of Brussels us intentionally and purposely and hopelessly screwed up and incompatible with American systems. I mean we already established 60 Hz and higher voltages and the Edison 240/120 safety system . There is less flicker and inherent safety with it yet all of Europe chose to do their own incompatible thing resulting in nothing but problems.
> 
> ...


In the US our rights are stated in the constitution making us citizens, the countries that spell Harbor as "harbour", & center as "centre" (pronounced as centree) the rights are subject to the whims of their governments, making them subjects, the recent actions of the Australian government are a prime example. The 2nd amendment is what protects the rest of the amendments, which is why they are so keen to have it go away, when it is gone, the rest will follow.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

I am confused. Is the OP asking , do electricians in the USA have to follow the NEC the same as the electricians in the UK have to follow the electrical code in the UK? How does Constitution history come into play? Even though it is called "the National Electric  Code", the federal government or any government either does not get involved or has limited input with it. They only pay to use it in their building codes or laws. Does the government in England make up their electrical code?


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