# Employer Wont Register me as a apprentice



## AnonYmousElectricalGuy (8 mo ago)

Hello,

This is my first post here, but I had an issue recently and was curious what others thought. I took a 3 year Electrical Engineering technology Program at school, which claims could or should lead to an apprenticeship later in life. I signed on with an electrical company that does construction maintenance and industrial work. The employer called me a Intermediate Electrical Technician, or a control Technician.

I worked at this company for about 7 months my probation period was a total of 6 months.
I completed work including the following at field client sites:
Installing VFD drives in industrial settings
Wiring motors and control panels
splicing conduit for fibre cable for switchgear
pulling cable runs for VFD drives and control systems
pulling cable, stripping and terminating cable for assembly lines
wiring up sensors and multiports
wiring up door locks
wiring up estop buttons
stripping small and large cables
terminating cable for PLCs
worked on a circuit breaker panel install for deicer pads
pulling cable through underground wireways at municipal dumps
installing cable for vision sensors and RFID sensors
Electrical design where I would select devices, and size protection devices, and design entire assembly lines in autocad
Install those electrical drawings as client sites
Installing junction boxes or pull boxes and terminating cable
drilling holes in steel, and aluminum
climbing ladders
Provided my own tools

I told my boss during the interview, I was interested in the opportunity of doing an apprenticeship if one became available, After the 5 month mark I learned he
had just hired a new apprentice and already registered him. I brought it up with my boss and said, whats going on? I have been doing electrical work for the past 5 months
doing work I believe needs to be registered. He told me they would not register or sponsor me, but I can continue doing the work. He sent me back into the field where I wired up another assembly line. At this point I spoke to a ministry of trades rep and they advised me to stop performing unsafe electrical work as it was unsafe for me to be doing alone and it needed to be under a registered apprentice. I brought it up again with my boss and they claimed to me that the work I was doing did not require registration that I was a control tech and control techs dont need to be registered, I told him I spoke with a MOL rep and they said it did and fell under compulsory trade work. My boss told me he didnt care what the inspector said or what I thought, and that he disagrees with me . He threatened me with termination and told me I could continue working for 3 months longer under the same conditions, I told him I would if we spoke to the MOL inspector about it, and convinced me that the work was safe and did not need to be under a registered apprentice, then he said "your terminated" and told me to get off the property and flipped me the bird and drove down the road all over the road in his truck.

Is there any thoughts about these events? Did I do the right thing or the wrong thing? I dont believe the MOL will enforce the reprisal I faced when I tried to comply with the building skilled trades act regulations 875/21 and 876/21scopes of practice reg 875/21 scopes of practice. During the meeting where I was terminated, my boss says to me, well I didnt tell you to do any of that work, and you did it on your own. Which is ludicrous. I did not go to sites and do electrical wiring unless he told me to.

I filed a workplace refusal complaint for occupational health and safety violation under regulations 875/21 and 876/21 of the Building Opportunities in the skilled trades act
for unsafe unregistered electrical work, and said I had received an order from a MOL inspector to stop work due to unsafe unregistered work. Almost all my work wasnt supervised by an electrician.


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Time to find another employer, seriously. If you aren’t accumulating hours towards a journeys license, please leave. Assuming this Canada. I don’t know that it’s worth pursuing action against the employer. The sooner you get a job with someone who will get you into an apprenticeship program the better.


----------



## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

I wish more people do what you did.

If that was the case, it would not be a constant race to the bottom; contractors hiring unlicensed guys and paying them next to nothing just so they can win the bid. We do it to ourselves too...

Good on you!

Cheers
John


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Are you in Canada? Your profile is not filled out. I do not know the procedures for Canada but as an employer I would be worried about hiring anybody who dictates how my company is run. After the three years of school could you or the school register you as an apprentice? Who registers the apprentice and who pays for it? Is it a union thing? Many places in the US are non union and I believe less than 20% of the work force is union so there is no board to register people or classify them.


----------



## gpop (May 14, 2018)

Looks like you are in America. 
If you was employee'd by a company and covered under there insurance as a industrial control Technician as long as the company sign's off saying you are a competent person then you do not require a licence. As you worked for a contractor that can be a bit of a grey area as you would need a qualified person with in the company. 

You would not be allowed to do a commercial or residential job unless you was being supervised by a journeyman.


----------



## AnonYmousElectricalGuy (8 mo ago)

I am in Canada, my location is wrong in my profile. I didnt dictate anything, its the law. Show me any law that the employer can sign off and not require a license for electrical work in canada, What law is that in? If you say that, back it up with proof, otherwise, i provided the laws, and there are none that have been provided that contradict them.


----------



## gpop (May 14, 2018)

AnonYmousElectricalGuy said:


> I am in Canada, my location is wrong in my profile. I didnt dictate anything, its the law. Show me any law that the employer can sign off and not require a license for electrical work in canada, What law is that in? If you say that, back it up with proof, otherwise, i provided the laws, and there are none that have been provided that contradict them.


Canada has different rules so ignore my post as that was based on being in America.


----------



## BleedingLungsMurphy (10 mo ago)

AnonYmousElectricalGuy said:


> I filed a workplace refusal complaint for occupational health and safety violation under regulations 875/21 and 876/21 of the Building Opportunities in the skilled trades act
> for unsafe unregistered electrical work, and said I had received an order from a MOL inspector to stop work due to unsafe unregistered work. Almost all my work wasnt supervised by an electrician.


You reported yourself for knowingly performing unlicensed work....?



> I spoke with a MOL rep and they said it did and fell under compulsory trade work. My boss told me he didnt care what the inspector said or what I thought, and that he disagrees with me


How do you know your boss is wrong? I'm going to assume your boss knows more about his company than you or the inspector you spoke with. I bet your boss has 7 months of documentation to support his position as well, legal or not.

It sounds like you knew the entire time and continued to work until your probation ended, then you started raising hell and calling inspectors. If you brought it up the first month and documented the intereactions you would have had a decent case.


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

gpop said:


> Looks like you are in America.
> If you was employee'd by a company and covered under there insurance as a industrial control Technician as long as the company sign's off saying you are a competent person then you do not require a licence. As you worked for a contractor that can be a bit of a grey area as you would need a qualified person with in the company.
> 
> You would not be allowed to do a commercial or residential job unless you was being supervised by a journeyman.


Not in all areas. In NY a licensed electrician ( if he / she has no principles) could hire anyone off the street and put them into most buildings. No requirements unless it is a public works project. I do not agree with it but NY has other concerns. The fact they leave us alone with who we hire is good in many aspects but the very few low standard guys might ruin it for others.


----------



## QueBertan (May 29, 2021)

AnonYmousElectricalGuy said:


> I am in Canada, my location is wrong in my profile. I didnt dictate anything, its the law. Show me any law that the employer can sign off and not require a license for electrical work in canada, What law is that in? If you say that, back it up with proof, otherwise, i provided the laws, and there are none that have been provided that contradict them.


where in canada? you could likely find some more tailored advice if you let us know which province? either way despite not getting the hours it looks like you had some fascinating hands on work that future, more reputable, employers will like on a resume so good on you for that


----------



## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

AnonYmousElectricalGuy said:


> If you say that, back it up with proof, otherwise, i provided the laws, and there are none that have been provided that contradict them.


Instead of arguing here, your efforts would be better spent looking for another employer.


----------



## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

I assume he is from Ontario because of the language and links provided.

I guess I want to add to my previous post... there is always a transition time between taking on an apprentice and signing them up. Apprenticeship positions are a rare commodity and most employers are either in one of two camps - follow the rules stringently and only give those spots to the exceptional or could care less and hire anybody to do anything and balance the risk / reward hoping they don't get caught.

The Ministry will allow, for the most part, some work to be completed during a "probationary period" but in the end you are either an apprentice or not. If you are not, then you cannot do electrical work that falls under the 309A / 309C categories. The problem is, and your employer is correct, in that only the 309A and 309C trade are compulsory in Ontario. In Ontario an industrial electrician (442A) is not compulsory and you only need to be "deemed competent" to work in that environment. By the sounds of it, most of the work you did could fall under the 442A SOW very easy.

Ontario has over 130 trades that are not compulsory Trades Information – Skilled Trades Ontario and only 23 that are https://www.skilledtradesontario.ca...ry_trades_skilled_trades_ontario-feb-2022.pdf. The question is / was the work construction work? If it was a new installation(s), then a 442 can't do it, but if it was repair replacement then it would be covered under the SOW for 442 I would think.

Cheers
John


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Navyguy said:


> I assume he is from Ontario because of the language and links provided.
> 
> I guess I want to add to my previous post... there is always a transition time between taking on an apprentice and signing them up. Apprenticeship positions are a rare commodity and most employers are either in one of two camps - follow the rules stringently and only give those spots to the exceptional or could care less and hire anybody to do anything and balance the risk / reward hoping they don't get caught.
> 
> ...


Is it as complicated as you describe or is it that your area is more organized than NY's willy nilly method?


----------



## gpop (May 14, 2018)

AnonYmousElectricalGuy said:


> Almost all my work wasnt supervised by an electrician.


That's going to be a fun one to prove.


----------



## AnonYmousElectricalGuy (8 mo ago)

Im in Ontario, All that matters Is I felt I was doing unsafe electrical work, and I was not registered. I was terminated as a result of doing work I felt was unsafe and needed to be registered going forward as the MOL told me that, after raising the conern more than once to my boss, and then to the MOL, which is against the law it is a reprisal for raising a concern around unsafe unregistered work, they did not take steps and assign me to do different work for a investigation to take place, and instead terminated me. They could have delt with it better and discussed it with me, and told me why they didnt feel it was unsafe, or why they thought it didnt need to be registered work.. Industrial Electrician is listed under the BOSDA act regulation 875/21 as a compulsary trade. Where does it say it is not?


----------



## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

I hope your future employer is not a member here.


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

joe-nwt said:


> I hope your future employer is not a member here.


I would be scared to hire him. Many are more concerned about their rights than their duties. I would like to hear the employer's version. We do not know what transpired but the fact it took 7 months raises questions. What documentation does the employer have over the seven months? I know of several companies that needed to fire people but couldn't because of a potential lawsuit that might happen. Age, race, orientation. One contractor had to take one of those Dale Carnegie or something classes on how to properly fire a worker. This guy seems to have the knowledge and a good background but the attitude needs some refining.


----------



## AnonYmousElectricalGuy (8 mo ago)

kb1jb1 said:


> I would be scared to hire him. Many are more concerned about their rights than their duties. I would like to hear the employer's version. We do not know what transpired but the fact it took 7 months raises questions. What documentation does the employer have over the seven months? I know of several companies that needed to fire people but couldn't because of a potential lawsuit that might happen. Age, race, orientation. One contractor had to take one of those Dale Carnegie or something classes on how to properly fire a worker. This guy seems to have the knowledge and a good background but the attitude needs some refining.


I dont under stand what you mean? I was waiting for the other worker, who went to do his trades school to come back, then I was going to ask about my apprenticeship because I knew they were short staff. So when he returned, I was going to ask, but at the same time, I learnt a new worker had been hired as a apprentice on day one. So I said to my boss, Can I do my apprenticeship, and they said no.


----------



## AnonYmousElectricalGuy (8 mo ago)

gpop said:


> Looks like you are in America.
> If you was employee'd by a company and covered under there insurance as a industrial control Technician as long as the company sign's off saying you are a competent person then you do not require a licence. As you worked for a contractor that can be a bit of a grey area as you would need a qualified person with in the company.
> 
> You would not be allowed to do a commercial or residential job unless you was being supervised by a journeyman.


What do you mean sign off he is a competent person? How is this documented and what is signed?


----------



## AnonYmousElectricalGuy (8 mo ago)

BleedingLungsMurphy said:


> You reported yourself for knowingly performing unlicensed work....?
> 
> 
> How do you know your boss is wrong? I'm going to assume your boss knows more about his company than you or the inspector you spoke with. I bet your boss has 7 months of documentation to support his position as well, legal or not.
> ...


I brought it up when I felt it was safe and time too, I thought if I worked through probation than when the oppertunity was available, it would be offered to me. That at this point I had shown I was capable of doing the work and it was time to become registered. Instead he offered a apprenticeship on day one to someone else, and said he would not register me when I asked to.


----------



## ohm it hertz (Dec 2, 2020)

You did the right thing.


----------



## BleedingLungsMurphy (10 mo ago)

AnonYmousElectricalGuy said:


> I brought it up when I felt it was safe and time too, I thought if I worked through probation than when the oppertunity was available, it would be offered to me.


You knew the entire time that you were doing unsafe work. The safest time to bring it up would have been the first day he asked you to do electrical work. If he fired you for asking about it you would have had a solid case. Unforunately, from a legal stand point, you both knowingly took advantage of the situation for personal gain.


----------



## CMP (Oct 30, 2019)

Sounds to me like you didn’t pass probation. 
With the attitude you project here I can understand why. You knowingly and willfully did something against the rules for your benefit until you figured the timer was up, then you tried to use the same law that you violated to turn it against your employer.

Is that something you learned in your schooling? Threatening your boss with rules that you both decided to violate, then threaten to use it against him. Seems to be a lack of critical thinking people skills. Strike one for the first attempt, hopefully you can learn from it and think how to do better the next time you get to the plate.


----------



## AnonYmousElectricalGuy (8 mo ago)

ohm it hertz said:


> You did the right thing.


Thank you


----------



## AnonYmousElectricalGuy (8 mo ago)

CMP said:


> Sounds to me like you didn’t pass probation.
> With the attitude you project here I can understand why. You knowingly and willfully did something against the rules for your benefit until you figured the timer was up, then you tried to use the same law that you violated to turn it against your employer.
> 
> Is that something you learned in your schooling? Threatening your boss with rules that you both decided to violate, then threaten to use it against him. Seems to be a lack of critical thinking people skills. Strike one for the first attempt, hopefully you can learn from it and think how to do better the next time you get to the plate.


What attitude? I took the job as a controls tech, where my job duties were PLC programming, electrical design and robotics programming. I did no PLC programming or robotics design, and my duties were changed to electrical installations in the field due to lack of work in the office. I did the work I was told to do by my boss, then realized it may require registration as an apprenticeship if I continue doing it.... At the time I didnt realize I would be doing field installs and wiring in the field. I did the work because I was told to and hoped it would turn into an apprenticeship by showing I was capable.. I should not have been told to do apprentice work, and when I did, and carried it out for a period of time, I brought it up.


----------



## AnonYmousElectricalGuy (8 mo ago)

BleedingLungsMurphy said:


> You knew the entire time that you were doing unsafe work. The safest time to bring it up would have been the first day he asked you to do electrical work. If he fired you for asking about it you would have had a solid case. Unforunately, from a legal stand point, you both knowingly took advantage of the situation for personal gain.


I took the job as a controls tech, where my job duties were PLC programming, electrical design and robotics programming. I did no PLC programming or robotics design, and my duties were changed to electrical installations in the field due to lack of work in the office. I did the work I was told to do by my boss, then realized it may require registration as an apprenticeship if I continue doing it.... At the time I didnt realize I would be doing field installs and wiring in the field. I did the work because I was told to and hoped it would turn into an apprenticeship by showing I was capable.. I should not have been told to do apprentice work, and when I did, and carried it out for a period of time, I brought it up.


----------



## AnonYmousElectricalGuy (8 mo ago)

CMP said:


> Sounds to me like you didn’t pass probation.
> With the attitude you project here I can understand why. You knowingly and willfully did something against the rules for your benefit until you figured the timer was up, then you tried to use the same law that you violated to turn it against your employer.
> 
> Is that something you learned in your schooling? Threatening your boss with rules that you both decided to violate, then threaten to use it against him. Seems to be a lack of critical thinking people skills. Strike one for the first attempt, hopefully you can learn from it and think how to do better the next time you get to the plate.


I passed probation it ended on may 15th, and All my performance reports were good. They even provided a good reference about me. They terminated me for what they called differences in opinion, about the fact I thought I was carrying out unsafe unregistered electrical work.


----------



## AnonYmousElectricalGuy (8 mo ago)

joe-nwt said:


> I hope your future employer is not a member here.


Why should I feel scared for trying to be safe?


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

While you have a point, the world is smaller than you realize. I have dinner with other owners, much larger than myself and I get to hear the dirt from time to time. I’m not saying he’s not wrong but but I haven’t really heard both sides and seriously, focus on getting in the program and get your hours in. We all know here that having a license doesn’t mean you’re worth anything as a worker, but it does give you advantages. Work on getting those advantages.


----------



## AnonYmousElectricalGuy (8 mo ago)

Id like to recap, I feel what I did was right and safe
*Part V: Right to refuse or to stop work where health and safety in danger*


*The right to refuse work*
The Occupational Health and Safety Act (OHSA) gives a worker the right to refuse work that he or she believes is unsafe to himself/ herself or another worker. A worker who believes that he or she is endangered by workplace violence may also refuse work.

The Act sets out a specific procedure that must be followed in any work refusal. It is important that workers, employers, supervisors, members of joint health and safety committees (JHSCs) and health and safety representatives understand the procedure for a lawful work refusal.

*Procedure for a work refusal*
*First stage*

Worker considers work unsafe. - in this case it was work I was told by the MOL to stop doing as it was not safe and needed to be registered as an apprentice
Worker reports refusal to his/her supervisor or employer. Worker may also wish to advise the worker safety representative and/or management representative. Worker stays in safe place. - I let my boss know that I thought I needed to be registered to continue to do this work
Employer or supervisor investigates in the presence of the worker and the worker safety representative. - the employer and supervisor dismissed the advice the MOL gave me without providing a reason or educating me on why they disagreed.
Either:
*Issue resolved.* Worker goes back to work.
*Issue not resolved.* Proceed to the second stage - my case was not resolved

*Second stage*

With reasonable grounds to believe work is still unsafe, worker continues to refuse and remains in safe place. Worker or employer or someone representing worker or employer calls MOL. - I called the MOL again multiple times
MOL Inspector investigates in company of worker, safety representative and supervisor or management representative.*
Inspector gives decision to worker, management representative/supervisor and safety representative in writing.
Changes are made if required or ordered. Worker returns to work.
* Pending the MOL investigation:


The refusing worker may be offered other work if it doesn't conflict with a collective agreement - i was not offered other work, I was told to continue the same duties for 3 months more. Or be terminated, then was terminated for saying I believe it needs to be registered to continue, before a MOL inspector showed up, or finished an investigation.
Refused work may be offered to another worker, but management must inform the new worker that the offered work is the subject of work refusal. This must be done in the presence of:
a member of the joint health and safety committee who represents workers; or
a health and safety representative, or
a worker who because of his or her knowledge, experience and training is selected by the trade union that represents the worker or, if there is not trade union, by the workers to represent them.

*Do all workers have the right to refuse unsafe work?*
The right to refuse unsafe work applies to all workers other than specified types of workers in specified circumstances. For further information, please refer to subsections 43(1) and (2) of the Act.

In specified circumstances, the right to refuse unsafe work is limited for:


police officers
firefighters
workers employed in the operation of correctional institutions and similar institutions/facilities
health care workers and persons employed in workplaces like hospitals, nursing homes, sanatoriums, homes for the aged, psychiatric institutions, mental health centres or rehabilitation facilities, residential group homes for persons with behavioural or emotional problems or a physical, mental or developmental disability, ambulance services, first aid clinics, licensed laboratories—or in any laundry, food service, power plant or technical service used by one of the above [subsection 43(2)].
*When can a worker refuse to work?*
A worker can refuse to work if he or she has reason to believe that:


any machine, equipment or tool that the worker is using or is told to use is likely to endanger himself or herself or another worker [clause 43(3)(a)]
the physical condition of the workplace or workstation is likely to endanger himself or herself [clause 43(3)(b)]
workplace violence is likely to endanger himself or herself [clause 43(3)(b.1)]
any machine, equipment or tool that the worker is using, or the physical condition of the workplace, contravenes the Act or regulations and is likely to endanger himself or herself or another worker [clause 43(3)(c)].  -in this case it contravenes a act or regulation of BOSDA reg 875/21 scopes of practice and reg 876/21 scopes of practice
*What happens when a worker refuses unsafe work?*
The worker must immediately tell the supervisor or employer that the work is being refused and explain the circumstances for the refusal [subsection 43(4)]. - i told my supervisor, I was told by a MOL inspector that the work needed to be registered, and I told them I would only accept a 3 month extension if they spoke to the MOL inspector and convinced me it did need to be registered and was not safe.

The supervisor or employer must investigate the situation immediately, in the presence of the worker and one of the following:


a joint health and safety committee member who represents workers, if there is one. If possible, this should be a certified member, or
a health and safety representative, in workplaces where there is no joint health and safety committee, or
another worker, who, because of knowledge, experience and training, has been chosen by the workers (or by the union) to represent them.

The refusing worker must remain in a safe place that is as near as reasonably possible to his or her workstation, and remain available to the employer or supervisor for the purposes of the investigation, until the investigation is completed [subsection 43(5)]. Although not stated as such in the Act, this interval is informally known as the "first stage" of a work refusal. If the situation is resolved at this point, the worker will return to work.

*What if the refusing worker is not satisfied with the result of the first stage investigation?*
The worker can continue to refuse the work if he or she has reasonable grounds for believing that the circumstances that caused the worker to initially refuse work continue [subsection 43(6)]. At this point, the "second stage" of a work refusal begins. - i was not satisfied because I was not provided any information to contradict the MOL inspector who advised me it was unsafe work and needed to be registered. My employer also refused to informally speak to my MOL rep.

*What happens if a worker continues to refuse to work?*
If the worker continues to refuse to work after the completion of the employer's investigation, the worker, the employer or someone acting on behalf of either the worker or employer must notify a Ministry of Labour, Training and Skills Development inspector. The inspector will come to the workplace to investigate the refusal in consultation with the worker and the employer (or a representative of the employer). If there is a joint health and safety committee member, a worker health and safety representative or a worker selected by the worker's trade union or, if there is no trade union, by the workers to represent the worker, they will also be consulted as part of the inspector's investigation [subsection 43(7)]. - I notified the inspector but have been terminated before an inspection.

While waiting for the inspector's investigation to be completed, the worker must remain in a safe place that is as near as reasonably possible to his or her workstation and available to the inspector for the purposes of the investigation, unless the employer assigns some other reasonable alternative work during normal working hours or gives other directions to the worker where an assignment of reasonable alternative work is not practicable [subsections 43(10) and (10.1)].

The inspector must decide whether the circumstance(s) that led to the work refusal is likely to endanger the worker (or another person). The inspector's decision must be given, in writing, to the worker, the employer, and the worker representative, if there is one. If the inspector finds that the circumstance is not likely to endanger anyone, the refusing worker is expected to return to work. If the inspector finds that the circumstance(s) is likely to endanger the worker or another person, the inspector will typically order the employer to remedy the hazard.

*Can another worker be asked to do the work that was refused?*
Yes. While waiting for the inspector to investigate and give a decision on the refusal, the employer or supervisor can ask another worker to do the work that was refused. The second worker must be told that the work was refused and why. This must be done in the presence of a committee member who represents workers, or a health and safety representative, or a worker representative chosen because of knowledge, experience and training [subsections 43(11) and (12)].

The second worker has the same right to refuse the work as the first worker.

*Is a worker paid while refusing to work?*
The Ministry is of the view that the worker is at work during the first stage of a work refusal and is entitled to be paid at his or her appropriate rate.

A person acting as a worker representative during a work refusal is paid at either the regular or the premium rate, whichever is applicable [subsection 43(13)].

-not paid due to termination before an investigation.

*Can an employer discipline a worker for refusing to work?*
No. The employer is expressly prohibited from penalizing, dismissing, disciplining, suspending or threatening to do any of these things to a worker who has obeyed or sought enforcement of the OHSA [subsection 50(1)]. Please see Part VI of this guide – Reprisals by the employer prohibited – for more information.

When it comes to this section 50 I sought enforcement of, can an employer discipline a worker for refusing work, it clearly says no, yet my termination was because I was refusing work because I was not a registered apprentice, and felt I was doing work that needed to be registered. I was told my a MOL representative that it was unsafe electrical work that required to be registered under an apprentice.

- I was first sent home for 2 days, then terminated. And they revoked my benefits.

*The right to stop work*
The Occupational Health and Safety Act permits specified persons to stop work in "dangerous circumstances".

In most cases, it takes both worker and management certified joint health and safety committee members to direct an employer to stop dangerous work (joint stoppage). One must be a certified member representing workers; the other, a certified member representing the employer. In some special cases, a single certified member may have this right. This chapter explains how and when work can be stopped.

*Dangerous circumstances*
Work can be stopped only in "dangerous circumstances" [subsection 44(1)].

This means a situation in which all of the following apply:


the Act or the regulations are being contravened, and  - in this case i stopped work because a act or regulation was being contravened and could pose a danger
the contravention poses a danger or a hazard to a worker, and
any delay in controlling the danger or hazard may seriously endanger a worker.
*Limitations on the right to stop work*
The right to stop work in dangerous circumstances does not apply to workplaces in which police and, firefighters are employed or to correctional institutions [clause 44(2)(a)] or to workplaces in which specified types of health workers are employed and where the work stoppage would directly endanger the life, health or safety of another person [clause 44(2)(b)].

*Joint right to stop work*
If a certified member of the joint health and safety committee has reason to believe that "dangerous circumstances" exist, he or she may ask a supervisor to investigate. The supervisor must do so promptly and in the presence of the certified member who made the request. This certified member may be one representing either the workers or the employer [subsection 45(1)].

*What happens if the certified member has reason to believe that the dangerous circumstances continue to exist?*
If the certified member believes that dangerous circumstances still exist after the conclusion of the supervisor's investigation and any remedial action taken, he or she may ask another certified member (who represents the other workplace party) to investigate [subsection 45(2)]. The second certified member must do so promptly and in the presence of the first certified member [subsection 45(3)].

The second certified member must represent the other workplace party. For example, if the first certified member represents workers, the second must represent the employer.

In prescribed instances, a certified member who represents the constructor or employer but who is not available at the workplace, may designate another person to act for him or her in a work stoppage under section 45 [subsection 45(9)].

*What happens if both certified members agree that dangerous circumstances exist?*
The certified members can direct the employer to stop the work or to stop using any part of the workplace or any equipment, machinery, tools, etc. [subsection 45(4)].

The employer must comply with this direction immediately and must ensure that compliance is achieved in a way that does not endanger anyone [subsection 45(5)].

After taking steps to remedy the dangerous circumstances, the employer may request the certified members of the joint health and safety committee who issued the stop work direction, or a Ministry of Labour, Training and Skills Development inspector, to cancel it [subsection 45(7)]. Only the certified members who issued the direction or a Ministry of Labour, Training and Skills Development inspector may cancel it [subsection 45(8)].

*What if the certified members do not agree with each other that dangerous circumstances exist?*
If the certified members disagree, either member may ask a ministry inspector to investigate. The Act requires the inspector to investigate and provide both certified members with his or her written decision [subsection 45(6)].

*Unilateral work stoppage*
*Application to the Ontario Labour Relations Board*
If any certified member in the workplace, or a Ministry of Labour, Training and Skills Development inspector has reason to believe that the procedure for joint stoppage of work will not be sufficient to protect the workers from serious risk to their health or safety, he or she may apply to the Ontario Labour Relations Board (OLRB) for a specified declaration or recommendation against the employer [subsection 46(1)], which are described in greater detail below.

*Role of the OLRB*
In this type of application, the OLRB, using prescribed criteria, must determine if the employer has failed to protect the health and safety of workers. The criteria to be used by the OLRB are prescribed in the O. Reg. 243/95, Criteria To Be Used And Other Matters To Be Considered By The Board Under Subsection 46 (6) of Act [subsection 46(6)].

If the OLRB finds that the procedure for joint stoppage of work is not sufficient to protect the workers, it may do one or both of the following:


declare that the employer is subject to the procedure for individual stoppage of dangerous work (explained below) for a specified period [clause 46(5)(a)]
recommend to the Minister that an inspector be assigned, for a specified period, to oversee the health and safety practices of the employer. The inspector can be assigned on a part time or full time basis for a specified period of time [clause 46(5)(b)].
The decision of the OLRB on an application is final [subsection 46(7)].

*Procedure for the unilateral right to stop dangerous work*
This procedure applies to a constructor or employer against whom the OLRB has issued a declaration under section 46 of the Act. It also applies to an employer who has advised the joint health and safety committee, in writing, that he or she voluntarily adopts the following procedure [subsection 47(1)].

If a certified member finds that dangerous circumstances exist, he or she can direct the employer to stop work or to stop using any part of the workplace or any equipment, machinery, tools, etc. [subsection 47(2)].

The employer must comply immediately and must achieve compliance in a way that does not endanger anyone [subsection 47(3)].

After stopping the work, the constructor or employer must promptly investigate in the presence of the certified member [subsection 47(4)].

After taking steps to remedy the dangerous circumstances, the employer can ask the certified member, or an inspector, to cancel the direction [subsection 47(6)]. The certified member, who made the direction or an inspector may cancel it [subsection 47(7)].

A certified member who receives a complaint that dangerous circumstances exist is entitled to investigate the complaint and to be paid for the time spent in exercising powers and performing duties during work stoppages.

*Responsible use of the right to stop work*
Where a constructor, employer, worker in the workplace or representative of a trade union in the workplace has reasonable grounds to believe that the certified member recklessly or in bad faith exercised, or failed to exercise powers under section 45 or section 47 to stop work in dangerous circumstances, he or she may file a complaint with the OLRB The complaint must be filed within 30 days of the event to which the complaint relates. The Minister may be a party to these proceedings before the OLRB.

The Board is required to make a decision in respect of the complaint and may make any order that it considers appropriate (including the decertification of a certified member.)

The decision of the OLRB is final.










Part V: Right to refuse or to stop work where health and safety in danger | Guide to the Occupational Health and Safety Act


The Occupational Health and Safety Act sets out the rights and duties of all parties in the workplace, as well as the procedures for dealing with workplace hazards and for enforcement as needed.




www.ontario.ca


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

I am guessing you are about 24/25 years old. From an employer's perspective we have to evaluate each employee to see what we can get out of them. Yes, there are some bosses that take advantage of the workers but then there are employees that are primadonnas. What are your actual capabilities, not what they had you doing? Are you proficient at bending and installing conduit? Do you know all the correct terminology? I do not know what it is like in Canada but it sounds like your gripe is with the trade school. They taught you for one thing but was not fully prepared for the job you took. After 40 years in the field I noticed there are electricians who are good with controls and PLC stuff but are poor at the conduit and wire aspect and visa-versa. You took schooling in controls so maybe stick with that part. I know I hate PLCs and controls so I stick with the grunt work and sub out the brain stuff.
If you are young write this off as part of your continuing education. Life is not always fare. When I was young I realized when I took care of the boss, he took care of me. If not then move on.


----------



## AnonYmousElectricalGuy (8 mo ago)

kb1jb1 said:


> I am guessing you are about 24/25 years old. From an employer's perspective we have to evaluate each employee to see what we can get out of them. Yes, there are some bosses that take advantage of the workers but then there are employees that are primadonnas. What are your actual capabilities, not what they had you doing? Are you proficient at bending and installing conduit? Do you know all the correct terminology? I do not know what it is like in Canada but it sounds like your gripe is with the trade school. They taught you for one thing but was not fully prepared for the job you took. After 40 years in the field I noticed there are electricians who are good with controls and PLC stuff but are poor at the conduit and wire aspect and visa-versa. You took schooling in controls so maybe stick with that part. I know I hate PLCs and controls so I stick with the grunt work and sub out the brain stuff.
> If you are young write this off as part of your continuing education. Life is not always fare. When I was young I realized when I took care of the boss, he took care of me. If not then move on.


im 30 years old, I did not do trade school because in canada you need a sponsor to complete trade school. I did a 3 year electrical engineering technology program, that is supposed to appeal to employers for apprenticeships because you can be exempt from hours, and exempt from level 1 and 2 of trade school. It does not qualify you to perform electrical installation work. I went back to school to get into the trades at 28 from my computer programming and IT diploma. It teaches you some wiring, PLC, protection and control relays, robotics, autocad and electrical design, transformers, generation. The fundamentals to be a good candidate over others in the trade. The goal is to come out of school, appeal to employers, and then they register you to do electrical work and woprk toward a license. Where you could do robot installs and maintenance, programming, PLC installs programming maintenance, VFD drive installs and programming, Etc...


----------



## CMP (Oct 30, 2019)

It takes more than one to maintain a relationship, if you stay hung up on what your boss did wrong and you were faultless, you will set yourself up for future misery.

When you percieve that your boss is taking advantage of the situation in any way, best thing is to make them aware of where the sticky points are in a civil manner, and then hand them a two week notice. You have to show some fortitude and be willing to stand for your convictions.

If they value your skills, they will try to change part of the arrangement to placate you.If they don’t they will tell you to skip the notice and get out now. But you have to prove to them that you mean business and also that your worth it 

Trying to maintain a bad relationship never works over the long haul. That just sets yourself up for more misery. You also have to commit yourself to doing your very best in the work you do, and just as importantly how you treat the people around you. If you do that and it still don’t work, then it’s time to pack up snd move on.

In my early life I fired a few employers, some even offered serious backpay to get you to stay for a while. But usually the situation reverts to the old ways. Don’t be afraid to move on till you find a situation that will work for you. If you keep doing that and learning from your past you will become more fulfilled and valuable. Eventually you could become the boss if you desire that level of responsibility and dedication. The more times you do it, the easier it gets, but it does require some sacrifice and determination.


----------



## AnonYmousElectricalGuy (8 mo ago)

CMP said:


> It takes more than one to maintain a relationship, if you stay hung up on what your boss did wrong and you were faultless, you will set yourself up for future misery.
> 
> When you percieve that your boss is taking advantage of the situation in any way, best thing is to make them aware of where the sticky points are in a civil manner, and then hand them a two week notice. You have to show some fortitude and be willing to stand for your convictions.
> 
> ...


that is how I feel, I believe I was an asset to their company and they could have dealt with it better if they wanted to keep me. I dont believe I will have a problem finding new work, and will be employed again shortly. Thank you. I do believe it does not excuse their actions, they had an opportunity to correct and chose not to, it is a reprisal. I believe I am smart and educated, with over 5 years of schooling and 10 years of experience. I dont see an issue, other than a bad situation. Money is something that can be re-earned, but your life and safety cant.


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

AnonYmousElectricalGuy said:


> im 30 years old, I did not do trade school because in canada you need a sponsor to complete trade school. I did a 3 year electrical engineering technology program, that is supposed to appeal to employers for apprenticeships because you can be exempt from hours, and exempt from level 1 and 2 of trade school. It does not qualify you to perform electrical installation work. I went back to school to get into the trades at 28 from my computer programming and IT diploma. It teaches you some wiring, PLC, protection and control relays, robotics, autocad and electrical design, transformers, generation. The fundamentals to be a good candidate over others in the trade. The goal is to come out of school, appeal to employers, and then they register you to do electrical work and woprk toward a license. Where you could do robot installs and maintenance, programming, PLC installs programming maintenance, VFD drive installs and programming, Etc...


It sounds like you are over qualified for an electrical apprentice. But then I am looking at it from a NY viewpoint. Canada seems to have stricter requirements


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

There was another thread about Belgium looking for industrial control people. Was that a serious thread?


----------



## AnonYmousElectricalGuy (8 mo ago)

kb1jb1 said:


> It sounds like you are over qualified for an electrical apprentice. But then I am looking at it from a NY viewpoint. Canada seems to have stricter requirements


I am overqualified, and I have been told that, however, I cant conduct my duties unless I have a license. You cant program a PLC in a open powered up cabinet, unless you have an electrical license, you also cant work with robots or install them because there energized. You also cant install transformers, build them, or maintain electrical systems. The only options I have is get a license, or finish a degree, which will take 2 years and 30k+ on top of my 5 year edu, I currently have 3000-4000 unregistered hours of 9000 for my license because no one will sponsor me and sign them.


----------



## AnonYmousElectricalGuy (8 mo ago)

you


kb1jb1 said:


> It sounds like you are over qualified for an electrical apprentice. But then I am looking at it from a NY viewpoint. Canada seems to have stricter requirements


 you still need to be a registered electrician to do licensed electrical work.


----------



## BleedingLungsMurphy (10 mo ago)

AnonYmousElectricalGuy said:


> I did the work I was told to do by my boss, then realized it may require registration


You're pissing in the wind. You knew exactly what you were doing. You even said you felt safe bringing it up _after _your probation. You should have put a lot more effort into dealing with it privately. Right or wrong no one wants to deal with this behavior. You're embarassing yourself and your employer and making the whole industry look incompetent to customers. Good luck.


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

This is a question for the Canadian Electricians. If I need some extra help for a job for what ever reason, I cannot just hire someone I might know to help me?  Say I pulled out my back and had 50 light fixtures to install. After reading all those rules and regulations quoted above, I am glad that I am in NY. What might be considered dangerous to some might be child's play to others.


----------



## gpop (May 14, 2018)

kb1jb1 said:


> It sounds like you are over qualified for an electrical apprentice. But then I am looking at it from a NY viewpoint. Canada seems to have stricter requirements


yep




AnonYmousElectricalGuy said:


> I am overqualified, and I have been told that, however, I cant conduct my duties unless I have a license. You cant program a PLC in a open powered up cabinet, unless you have an electrical license, you also cant work with robots or install them because there energized. You also cant install transformers, build them, or maintain electrical systems. The only options I have is get a license, or finish a degree, which will take 2 years and 30k+ on top of my 5 year edu, I currently have 3000-4000 unregistered hours of 9000 for my license because no one will sponsor me and sign them.


Nothing like America where most of the programmer's, instrument tech's and industrial guys do not have licences. Im not sure i would take a $40 dollar plus pay cut to learn how to wire a house for 5 years unless i liked the idea of wiring a house. If it involves like real work im pretty sure i wouldn't like it.


----------



## BleedingLungsMurphy (10 mo ago)

kb1jb1 said:


> I cannot just hire someone I might know to help me?


Someone that isn't a registered apprentice or licensed electrician?

Every province has different rules. Alberta allows homeowners to pull permits and get help from "friends". Technically an inspector can request proof of registration from any apprentice or JM, but they never do. It comes down to liability. If there was an incident that was investigated it would be beneficial to you to have proof that all of your employees are registered electricians.


----------



## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

I don't even know the OP, and I'd fire him already


----------



## AnonYmousElectricalGuy (8 mo ago)

emtnut said:


> I don't even know the OP, and I'd fire him already


you would fire someone for not having an electrical license, but doing electrical work? Or would you be more approving of the industry of those who have ethics and wont perform work unless licensed? I dont have an electrical license, I am not an apprentice, I was doing electrical installations. I was not PLC programming, I was not robotics programming, I was doing electrical installs and I am not a electrician...


----------



## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

AnonYmousElectricalGuy said:


> you would fire someone for not having an electrical license, but doing electrical work? Or would you be more approving of the industry of those who have ethicvs and wont perform work unless licensed?


No, because you know all this ...


AnonYmousElectricalGuy said:


> Id like to recap, I feel what I did was right and safe
> *Part V: Right to refuse or to stop work where health and safety in danger*
> 
> 
> ...


But you can't say why the boss said you can't become an apprentice.


----------



## AnonYmousElectricalGuy (8 mo ago)

AnonYmousElectricalGuy said:


> you would fire someone for not having an electrical license, but doing electrical work? Or would you be more approving of the industry of those who have ethics and wont perform work unless licensed? I dont have an electrical license, I am not an apprentice, I was doing electrical installations. I was not PLC programming, I was not robotics programming, I was doing electrical installs and I am not a electrician...


so can i come wireup yalls houses? I got my diploma I am compitent


----------



## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

AnonYmousElectricalGuy said:


> so can i come wireup yalls houses? I got my diploma I am compitent


Nope, we have apprentices for that


----------



## AnonYmousElectricalGuy (8 mo ago)

emtnut said:


> Nope, we have apprentices for that


:O, what if i get sent there by my next employer as a technologist


----------



## gpop (May 14, 2018)

emtnut said:


> Nope, we have apprentices for that


Wiping coffee of my keyboard


----------



## AnonYmousElectricalGuy (8 mo ago)

emtnut said:


> No, because you know all this ...
> 
> 
> But you can't say why the boss said you can't become an apprentice.


I was never told... so how would I know, its surprising... I just wana do electrical work


----------



## BleedingLungsMurphy (10 mo ago)

AnonYmousElectricalGuy said:


> I was never told... so how would I know


Ignorance isn't a legal defense.



AnonYmousElectricalGuy said:


> what if i get sent there by my next employer as a technologist


You better refuse the work. You already willingly performed unlicensed work. Now you wrote a 3 page blog about doing unlicensed work on the internet explaining that you knew you were doing something wrong, but continued anyway.

How do you honestly expect this to play out? Do you think you will get your employer banned and take over his company? You have some soul searching, and job searching, to do. Good luck....


----------



## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

@AnonYmousElectricalGuy

Clearly you don’t really understand how the system works.
So lets get a few things straight…

In Ontario you must be a registered apprentice or journeyperson in 309A / 309C to do construction / new installations in all areas. This also applies to other types of work in commercial / commercial/residential, residential, etc except for industrial. These environments require you to either work for or be a Licensed Electrical Contractor (LEC).

Maintenance, repair, troubleshooting, replacement, etc in an industrial setting requires you to be “deemed competent”; generally that means you have a 442A or other education and / or experience for the job you are doing. As an example, a service person from a manufacturer may go to an industrial setting and do repairs, service, etc based on his training and experience on that equipment, but he may not be a journeyperson or apprentice or hold either a 442 or 309A. A 309A can do everything a 442A can, but not the other way around.

You claim you have taken three years of schooling, in most places that might deem you competent in a course of study (PLC programming, troubleshooting, making additions to control circuits, etc). Again, an industrial electrician is a non-compulsory trade in Ontario and you do not need to be an apprentice or journeyperson to work in the industrial setting, you just need to be deemed competent.

As I said before, perhaps some of your tasks fell outside the area of repair, maintenance, etc and might have fallen into the 309A SOW; in some areas the lines are gray at best.

As far as the other stuff, yes you have the right to refuse unsafe work. Yes there is a process for reporting it and it appears that you followed the process. The question is really, why do you think it is unsafe work if you went to school for years to learn this stuff, have been deemed competent based on your diploma / certificate and have been put in the field to do it?

I don’t disagree that that you should be asking for an apprenticeship if you are doing work that falls in the 309A realm and in fact it would not be unreasonable to even pursue a 442A apprenticeship either even though it is not required.

You mentioned that you should be exempt so many hours based on your schooling, levels of school, etc, yet you find this work unsafe? You can’t stand there and pound your chest and say how valuable you are, then run willy nilly to the MOL when you are put outside your comfort zone and act all butt hurt because you think you have a right to something you were not hired for. To me it sounds like you were hired for controls work, you were given controls work, but what you really want is a 309A apprenticeship.

Finally, to be clear, although it is advertised by the colleges that Pre-Apprenticeship, Electrical Techniques and Electrical Technologist all lead to an apprenticeship, that is simply not true. Those courses, while valuable and have good content, cannot hold a candle to the apprenticeship programs and anyone who seeks to be exempted levels of apprenticeship or even seeks an outright challenge to the CofQ based on those courses are simply fools.

The apprenticeship courses move at twice the pace as the others and covers much more in greater detail. At best, the other course give you a small taste of what the trade might be for someone and allows them to make a decision on whether they want to pursue it or not.

Cheers
John


----------



## ohm it hertz (Dec 2, 2020)

Look OP you did good keeping the boss on his toes to do the right thing but from the sounds of it you sold yourself short at the interview from the start. If it wasn't in writing then he never intended to get you an apprenticeship. Face it, you were hired as unskilled labor with no advancement in sight, and you started barking up trees to get what you wanted. Difference of opinion occurred and you were let go.

It's okay to be wrong. It's also okay to own the mistake and learn from it. 

This shop was never a fit for you. Embrace that and move on.


----------



## AnonYmousElectricalGuy (8 mo ago)

Navyguy said:


> @AnonYmousElectricalGuy
> 
> Clearly you don’t really understand how the system works.
> So lets get a few things straight…
> ...


Where does it say that Industrial electrician is not a compulsary trade? I can show you where it says it is.






Law Document English View


Welcome to the new e-Laws. It’s now easier than ever to find Ontario laws. We welcome your feedback.




www.ontario.ca




.

regulation 875/21 subsection 72, where it is not in subsection 2 of exempt work of enforced trades. All regulations under 875/21 are enforced by ontario skill trades, other than the subsection 2 exemptions, where all trades that fall under regulation 876/2 are enforced as mandatory trades by another federal body.






Law Document English View


Welcome to the new e-Laws. It’s now easier than ever to find Ontario laws. We welcome your feedback.




www.ontario.ca





If you know show me one paper that says a technologist is deemed competent and does not require a license for industrial work, or where it says an industrial electrician license is not required if your a technologist than please provide the links. Otherwise they are not supported by law.

*Industrial electrician
72. *The scope of practice for the trade of industrial electrician includes installing, maintaining, testing, troubleshooting and repairing industrial electrical equipment, and associated electrical and electronic controls, and hydraulic and pneumatic equipment in industrial, manufacturing and power plants.

*Instrumentation and control technician
80. *The scope of practice for the trade of instrumentation and control technician includes installing, calibrating, configuring, maintaining, servicing, testing, troubleshooting, analyzing and upgrading measuring and control devices and systems, which equip process industries, by doing the following:
1. Working with instruments such as transmitters, sensors, detectors, signal conditioners, recorders, controllers and final control elements, including various types of auto valves and variable frequency drives.
2. Practising within all areas of industry to measure, record, research, analyze and control product output, as well as monitoring and controlling emissions to protect the environment.
3. Installing, calibrating, maintaining, servicing and troubleshooting, analyzing and upgrading measuring and control devices and systems, including the areas of distributed control systems, programmable logic controllers, supervisory control and data acquisition systems and other high-tech systems.
4. Servicing analytical instrumentation such as gas chromatography and gas detection and monitoring and analyzing instruments.
5. Servicing microprocessing instruments, including fieldbus systems and wireless communications.

*Powerline technician
105. *The scope of practice for the trade of powerline technician includes the following:
1. Operating, maintaining and servicing power lines used to conduct electricity from generating plants to consumers.
2. Constructing or assembling a system of power lines used to conduct electricity from generating plants to consumers.

*Process operator — power
110. *The scope of practice for the trade of process operator — power includes operating, monitoring, adjusting and maintaining processing systems and equipment by doing the following:
1. Performing operator and outside operator duties and satellite control room operations.
2. Operating electronic or computerized control panels.
3. Controlling process start up and shut down and performing troubleshooting duties.
4. Monitoring outside process equipment.
5. Adjusting equipment, valves, pumps and controls, and process equipment.
6. Completing required maintenance documentation.
7. Preparing process units or production equipment for maintenance.
8. Sampling, testing and preparing reports on process operations.
9. Participating in safety audits and programs and providing emergency response.



*Electric motor system technician
43*. The scope of practice for the trade of electric motor system technician includes disassembling, diagnosing, rewinding, repairing, testing and reassembling components of electric motors, transformers, switchgears and generators.
*Electrician — construction and maintenance
44. *(1) The scope of practice for the trade of electrician — construction and maintenance includes the following:
1. Laying out, assembling, installing, repairing, maintaining, connecting or testing electrical fixtures, apparatus, control equipment and wiring for systems of alarm, communication, light, heat or power in buildings or other structures.
2. Planning proposed installations from blueprints, sketches or specifications and installing panel boards, switch boxes, pull boxes and other related electrical devices.
3. Measuring, cutting, threading, bending, assembling and installing conduits and other types of electrical conductor enclosures that connect panels, boxes, outlets and other related electrical devices.
4. Installing brackets, hangers or equipment for supporting electrical equipment.
5. Installing in or drawing electrical conductors through conductor enclosures.
6. Preparing conductors for splicing of electrical connections, securing conductor connections by soldering or other mechanical means and reinsulating and protecting conductor connections.
7. Testing electrical equipment for proper function.
(2) The scope of practice for the trade of electrician — construction and maintenance does not include work performed by a person who is permanently employed in an industrial plant at a limited purpose occupation in the electrical trade.
*Electrician — domestic and rural
45. *The scope of practice for the trade of electrician — domestic and rural is the same as the scope of practice of an electrician — construction and maintenance, but is limited to the following:
1. Work in the construction, erection, repair, remodelling or alteration of,
i. houses or multiple dwelling buildings containing six or fewer dwellings, or
ii. buildings or structures used for farming.
2. The performance of maintenance to electrical equipment,
i. in houses or multiple dwelling buildings containing six or fewer dwellings, or
ii. on farms.
*Electrician (signal maintenance)
46. *The scope of practice for the trade of electrician (signal maintenance) includes repairing and operating mechanical, electrical, electronic and computerized signal and train control equipment of transit systems.
*Electronic service technician
47. *The scope of practice for the trade of electronic service technician includes servicing electronic products typically identified as consumer products by doing the following:
1. Interacting with customers and other workers.
2. Using hand tools, hand power tools, testing equipment and specialty tools.
3. Applying electronic theory to electronic products.
4. Terminating and connecting conductors and printed circuit boards contained within electronic products.
5. Maintaining electronic products.
6. Troubleshooting and diagnosing problems in electronic products.
7. Servicing and repairing electronic products.


*Work not included in the scope of practice of specified trades
2. *(1) With respect to the following trades, the scope of practice for the trade does not include any of the work listed in subsection (2):
1. Alignment and Brakes Technician.
2. Auto Body and Collision Damage Repairer.
3. Auto Body Repairer.
4. Automotive Electronic Accessory Technician.
5. Automotive Service Technician.
6. Fuel and Electrical Systems Technician.
7. Motorcycle Technician.
8. Transmission Technician.
9. Truck and Coach Technician.
10. Truck-Trailer Service Technician.
(2) For the purposes of subsection (1), the following work is not included in the scope of practice for the trades listed in that subsection:
1. Removing or replacing wheels and rims on motor vehicles.
2. Removing or replacing any of the following in motor vehicles, motorcycles, motor coaches, trucks or truck-trailers:
i. auto glass,
ii. exhaust systems,
iii. radiators, cooling system hoses and thermostats,
iv. engine drive belts,
v. horns,
vi. light bulbs, sealed beam units and lenses,
vii. fuses, batteries and battery cables,
viii. radios,
ix. shock absorbers or springs that do not require the realignment of the front or rear suspension,
x. oil filters, air filters and fuel filters, and
xi. spark plugs.
3. Changing the engine, transmission, differential or cooling system fluids in motor vehicles, motorcycles, motor coaches, trucks or truck-trailers.
4. Replenishing fluids in the hydraulic systems of motor vehicles, motorcycles, motor coaches, trucks or truck-trailers.
5. Repairing and balancing tires and wheels on motor vehicles, motorcycles, motor coaches, trucks or truck-trailers.
6. Lubricating motor vehicles, motorcycles, motor coaches, trucks or truck-trailers.
7. Reconditioning and rebuilding internal combustion engines and associated components, power trains, brake system components and suspension system components.

Then their red seals



Construction Electrician




Industrial Electrician




Instrumentation and Control Technician / Red Seal







Electric Motor System Technician / Red Seal


<p>Electric Motor System Technician</p>



www.red-seal.ca






anything inside this PDF for signing off on the license is a required skilled trades needing a license 


  







  







  





Construction Electrician Trades Skills



A example of a trade that fell within subsection that is exempt is the following

*Fuel and electrical systems technician
54. *The scope of practice for the trade of fuel and electrical systems technician includes engaging in the repair and maintenance of motor vehicles by doing any of the following:

1. Diagnosing faults in, installing, repairing and removing,

i. ignition and charging and starting systems,

ii. panel instruments,

iii. wiring, and

iv. other electrical and electronic systems and equipment.

2. Diagnosing faults in, repairing and adjusting fuel systems, engine management systems and emission control systems.

3. Diagnosing faults in, installing, inspecting, maintaining and removing air-conditioning and refrigeration and heating systems



there is no document or law that I have been provided or seen that says Industrial electrician is not a compulsory trade, and that a technologist can do it because they are competent enough. Please provide the legal document.


----------



## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

kb1jb1 said:


> Is it as complicated as you describe or is it that your area is more organized than NY's willy nilly method?


I don't think that it is that complicated, but there is some long-standing regulations regarding apprenticeship and apprenticeship training.

The key to all of it is the ratio between JP and AP; that is what typically hold back people from hiring more apprentices and that is why the positions are highly sought. Essentially getting an apprenticeship, especially in electrical is like winning a lottery for most people.

Cheers
John


----------



## BleedingLungsMurphy (10 mo ago)

AnonYmousElectricalGuy said:


> If you know show me.....


Why? So you can continue to cherry pick arguments? I would love to hear your employers side of the story.

You seem confident. Go hire a lawyer. Let us know how it plays out.


----------



## AnonYmousElectricalGuy (8 mo ago)

Navyguy said:


> I don't think that it is that complicated, but there is some long-standing regulations regarding apprenticeship and apprenticeship training.
> 
> The key to all of it is the ratio between JP and AP; that is what typically hold back people from hiring more apprentices and that is why the positions are highly sought. Essentially getting an apprenticeship, especially in electrical is like winning a lottery for most people.
> 
> ...





BleedingLungsMurphy said:


> Why? So you can continue to cherry pick arguments? I would love to hear your employers side of the story.
> 
> You seem confident. Go hire a lawyer. Let us know how it plays out.


Well I have supported my argument, and no one else has supported thers, what law says a compitent person can be signed off to do industrial electrical work and what is the threshold for that, and where does it say industrial electrician isnt a compulsory trade. It says it is a compulsory trade, enforced and not in the exemptions.


----------



## AnonYmousElectricalGuy (8 mo ago)

BleedingLungsMurphy said:


> Why? So you can continue to cherry pick arguments? I would love to hear your employers side of the story.
> 
> You seem confident. Go hire a lawyer. Let us know how it plays out.


the employer's side of the story is that I dont have to be registered to do electrical work. What law says that I dont need to be registered industrial electrician or can be exempt as a competent person.


----------



## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

Well I guess I can do your homework for you... in the first link I provided from the MOL on page 5









On the second link where it lists the 23 compulsory trades, industrial electrician (442A) is not listed.

It is also listed in O. Reg 876/21.
The SOW for each trade is under O.Reg 875/21.

Regulation O.Reg 570/05 states that:


O.Reg 570/05 said:


> *Non-application of Regulation
> 2.* this Regulation does not apply to a person engaged in the following types of electrical work:
> Omitted...
> 2. Work done on electrical equipment or electrical installations within an industrial establishment or on a farm if done by an owner, an operator or an employee of the owner or operator.
> ...


also from the ESA web pages, it restates the regulation...










I am not sure what else I can provide for you.

Cheers
John


----------



## AnonYmousElectricalGuy (8 mo ago)

Navyguy said:


> Well I guess I can do your homework for you... in the first link I provided from the MOL on page 5
> 
> View attachment 165664
> 
> ...



So if I go to a ski resort and do electrical work, that is a compulsory trade? or when I go to a municipal dump? Or Nah? Whats the point of an industrial electrician license if its not required then?

Why do jobs post like this? It says you could do itas a 309a electrician or a 442A, but not as a technologist?










I did grounding and bonding of a switch gear

An Electrician — Construction and Maintenance apprenticeship includes three levels of theoretical training, which includes but is not limited to instruction in:


codes, legislation and regulations
blueprints, drawings and specifications
trade communication and documentation
electrical theory, wiring, motor starters and controls
transformers, generators, electronics
conductors and cables
installation methods
instrumentation and power distribution
fire alarm and building systems, high voltage systems, control systems
electrical equipment maintenance
job planning
grounding and bonding
distribution equipment
protective devices


----------



## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

How is the business classified? Ski Resort I might say is commercial, municipal dump would be industrial I would think. An industrial location has to have some sort of processing going on. I have worked in a lot of factories where the "maintenance guy" did not have a ticket... it is very common. That is also why one of the reasons that the 442A is so restricted in the SOW.

Cheers
John


----------



## BleedingLungsMurphy (10 mo ago)

AnonYmousElectricalGuy said:


> Well I have supported my argument


We can agree to disagree. You knowingly performed the work. If you go to court the first thing they will ask is, "what did you do to minimize the damages". You knowingly continued to do the work for 6 months. If anything this will blow back on you.

It doesn't sound like you were being threatened or coerced to do this work. It really sounds like you saw it as an opportunity and kept your mouth shut until you thought you had your foot far enough in the door to complain. For the record, I think you did the right thing, but you should have done it a lot sooner.


----------



## Bluenose for rent (Nov 6, 2020)

AnonYmousElectricalGuy said:


> Hello,
> 
> This is my first post here, but I had an issue recently and was curious what others thought. I took a 3 year Electrical Engineering technology Program at school, which claims could or should lead to an apprenticeship later in life. I signed on with an electrical company that does construction maintenance and industrial work. The employer called me a Intermediate Electrical Technician, or a control Technician.
> 
> ...


Just curious, what did you do before your technologist schooling?


----------



## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

AnonYmousElectricalGuy said:


> I dont have an electrical license, I am not an apprentice, I was doing electrical installations. I was not PLC programming, I was not robotics programming, I was doing electrical installs and I am not a electrician...


I don't know how you can live with yourself. Turn yourself in immediately. I will be good for your soul.

Or, move on.


----------



## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

AnonYmousElectricalGuy said:


> So if I go to a ski resort and do electrical work, that is a compulsory trade? or when I go to a municipal dump? Or Nah? Whats the point of an industrial electrician license if its not required then?


Because under the OHSA, the employer is responsible to have a "competent" worker doing this type of work. Having the Industrial license is ONE way for the employer to comply.

They can also comply with just any employee by providing in-house training.




AnonYmousElectricalGuy said:


> Why do jobs post like this? It says you could do itas a 309a electrician or a 442A, but not as a technologist?
> 
> View attachment 165669


First, VERY few 309A's would apply for that type of job. If one did, he'd likely win over everyone else.
The 442A satisfies the HR dept for hiring a 'competent worker'.

Given you have experience, there is a very good chance you get an interview.
If you behave anything like you are in this thread, I'd think your employment there would be short lived.


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

AnonYmousElectricalGuy said:


> you would fire someone for not having an electrical license, but doing electrical work? Or would you be more approving of the industry of those who have ethics and wont perform work unless licensed? I dont have an electrical license, I am not an apprentice, I was doing electrical installations. I was not PLC programming, I was not robotics programming, I was doing electrical installs and I am not a electrician...


You are talking with electricians here. Many have years of experience, been there done that. Your last comments here says a lot. It is your fault. Period. YOU took a job that you were not qualified for and stayed with it. If you are serious about becoming an apprentice then you should be picking up a code book or something and studying rather than a book on laws. One thing any government is good for is making myriads of laws or rules. Most are ignored because we have other things to worry about. Things like electrical codes, running a business, getting jobs and getting paid for them, fuel for the trucks, and the big thing now getting materials.


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

I am beginning to wonder if this is a real thread. What would LGLS say? Or the Majewsky guy say? Whatever happened to him?


----------



## AnonYmousElectricalGuy (8 mo ago)

I called my friend, who is a masters electrician, a owner of a electrical company, a industrial electrician and a 309a electrician. He told me a industrial electrician license is not compulsary, however, you can only use it if you work at a factory for that company who owns the factory. If you work at a shop and are sent to that factory in the field, you require to be a licensed apprentice under 309a.


----------



## AnonYmousElectricalGuy (8 mo ago)

kb1jb1 said:


> You are talking with electricians here. Many have years of experience, been there done that. Your last comments here says a lot. It is your fault. Period. YOU took a job that you were not qualified for and stayed with it. If you are serious about becoming an apprentice then you should be picking up a code book or something and studying rather than a book on laws. One thing any government is good for is making myriads of laws or rules. Most are ignored because we have other things to worry about. Things like electrical codes, running a business, getting jobs and getting paid for them, fuel for the trucks, and the big thing now getting materials.


I called my friend, who is a masters electrician, a owner of a electrical company, a industrial electrician and a 309a electrician. He also taught trade school and college. He told me a industrial electrician license is not compulsary, however, you can only use it if you work at a factory for that company who owns the factory, that getting licensed there is not manditory and can be done by a technologist, but should get the license and red seal to show you are compitent. If you work at a shop however which I did, and are sent to that factory or others in the field, you are require to be a licensed apprentice under 309a working toward your electrical 309a license..

Its not my fault, because it was not duties I thought I would be doing, until I was told to do them. I then brought the issue up. I was not aware of the threashhold, or requirements at the time until the MOL inspector told me it needed to be.


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

AnonYmousElectricalGuy said:


> I called my friend, who is a masters electrician, a owner of a electrical company, a industrial electrician and a 309a electrician. He told me a industrial electrician license is not compulsary, however, you can only use it if you work at a factory for that company who owns the factory. If you work at a shop and are sent to that factory in the field, you require to be a licensed apprentice under 309a.


So why don't you work for your friend?


----------



## AnonYmousElectricalGuy (8 mo ago)

kb1jb1 said:


> So why don't you work for your friend?


Hes retired now and closed his business. He cant sign off on my hours or give me any work.


----------



## u2slow (Jan 2, 2014)

Have you checked with your province's trades authority for having prior time credited? In BC (last i checked) you could swear an afadavit along with pay stubs to make time count.

This chicken/egg thing for getting apprenticed has no place; thus the trades authority. You're registerable after your probation period regardless - outside the employers control. And you need this to be to perform regulated work. Signing off time is up to the employer, and they often come 'round after they've realized they can't stonewall you on registration.


----------



## gpop (May 14, 2018)

One topic that hasn't been covered was the hourly wage. Apprentices are normally near minimum wage and industrial controls guys are normally near max wage for electrical work so what was the pay like..


----------



## u2slow (Jan 2, 2014)

@gpop Most canadian apprenticeships follow (minimally) a % of JW rate based on how many years in; set by the provincial trades authority. Any employer is allowed to pay more; payscale doesn't classify you as an apprentice or 'controls guy'.


----------



## AnonYmousElectricalGuy (8 mo ago)

Navyguy said:


> Well I guess I can do your homework for you... in the first link I provided from the MOL on page 5
> 
> View attachment 165664
> 
> ...



Industrial electricians, are only allowed to work in the factories of which they are employed, if you work at a shop and are sent to work at factories elsewhere, than a 309a is required.


----------



## AnonYmousElectricalGuy (8 mo ago)

gpop said:


> One topic that hasn't been covered was the hourly wage. Apprentices are normally near minimum wage and industrial controls guys are normally near max wage for electrical work so what was the pay like..


It doesnt change the fact that I worked at a shop and was being sent into the field, industrial electricians can only work for the factories they are directly employed by. I was working at a shop where they sent me to sites that they did not own, and required a 309a apprentice registration, and card.


----------



## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

AnonYmousElectricalGuy said:


> I called my friend, who is a masters electrician, a owner of a electrical company, a industrial electrician and a 309a electrician. He also taught trade school and college. He told me a industrial electrician license is not compulsary, however, you can only use it if you work at a factory for that company who owns the factory, that getting licensed there is not manditory and can be done by a technologist, but should get the license and red seal to show you are compitent. If you work at a shop however which I did, and are sent to that factory or others in the field, you are require to be a licensed apprentice under 309a working toward your electrical 309a license..
> 
> Its not my fault, because it was not duties I thought I would be doing, until I was told to do them. I then brought the issue up. I was not aware of the threashhold, or requirements at the time until the MOL inspector told me it needed to be.


Not entirely true.

I have had 442 people work for me and I sent them to a factory. That is the only place I can send them, is to an industrial setting. There are lots of LECs that only have 442 guys and all they do is work in factories doing plant maintenance, shutdowns, etc; it is not all at the same factory either..

Cheers
John


----------



## AnonYmousElectricalGuy (8 mo ago)

Navyguy said:


> Not entirely true.
> 
> I have had 442 people work for me and I sent them to a factory. That is the only place I can send them, is to an industrial setting. There are lots of LECs that only have 442 guys and all they do is work in factories doing plant maintenance, shutdowns, etc; it is not all at the same factory either..
> 
> ...


So does doing a technologist program mean you dont need a 442 license/red steal and can do industrial electrical work in the field? I dont have a 442, and im not an apprentice or supervised by one. And how am I supposed to know then when Im doing work I shoulnt be or not?

I think my point is, was I was not sure, and I was looking for advice and guidance, on the scope of the work for an electrical technologist who was not an apprentice, being sent into the field. I was told it was unsafe work and to stop by a MOL inspector. Then I was terminated for asking if I should or could get registered. My boss could have explained and convinced me why he believed it was not required and educated me, or he could have corrected it by registering me. But he chose neither and ended my employment for possibly dangerous work, that I alleged because I was not sure if I needed a license or not.

The point is its complicated, and not clear. All I had seeked to do was advise my boss, that I thought I might need to get registered after I did I let it stand and continued to work, until I was terminated for the same reason. All I said was, I was told that I needed to be registered to continue to do this. It is not fair and a reprisal, He could have provided some information as to why it did or did not require registration under an apprentice. Or maybe Im might and it did, and he didnt want to get in trouble for using me. My reason for termination was not over performance or not being able to do the work, it was what he called a difference of opinion. Which I didnt even make a deal about he did, I didnt even bring it up a second time, they did.

Either way, I am submitting a reprisal complaint for work I was ordered to stop by a MOL inspector.


----------



## CMP (Oct 30, 2019)

Poindexter syndrome


----------



## AnonYmousElectricalGuy (8 mo ago)

CMP said:


> Poindexter syndrome


oh is that what they call it? When you ask your boss if the work you have been told to do is different than what you were hired to do and you thought it needed to be registered.


----------



## CMP (Oct 30, 2019)

It applies to a broader segment than the boss. 
Seen it many times in people, in many areas.


----------



## AnonYmousElectricalGuy (8 mo ago)

Bluenose for rent said:


> Just curious, what did you do before your technologist schooling?


I worked at honda on contract as a java Developer for the global assembly line controller


Navyguy said:


> Not entirely true.
> 
> I have had 442 people work for me and I sent them to a factory. That is the only place I can send them, is to an industrial setting. There are lots of LECs that only have 442 guys and all they do is work in factories doing plant maintenance, shutdowns, etc; it is not all at the same factory either..
> 
> ...


K, but where does it say you can do that?


----------



## AnonYmousElectricalGuy (8 mo ago)

well either way, im going to get another job, and I bet I get a better job, and get registered. Overall its their loss, and their mistake. They should have discussed it with me any safety concerns I had. If they think they can prevent me from working for doing what I thought was right, well there wrong. I will be a asset to a different company, and they will have to deal with the MOL inspector and the OLRB.


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

I am glad we don't have your system of doing things here. It is sounding more and more convoluted. Years back I was involved in large boiler replacements. We had the same 5 guys do everything. The gas, the rigging, the copper piping, the electrical, the sheet metal etc... I was the licensed electrician and the others helped when needed. I helped the plumber when needed. Basically we did the work where you might need 16 different people according to your system. We have a different system here in the states so that is maybe why I do not understand your complaint.


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Let's drag it out to 100.


----------



## gpop (May 14, 2018)

AnonYmousElectricalGuy said:


> well either way, im going to get another job, and I bet I get a better job, and get registered. Overall its their loss, and their mistake. They should have discussed it with me any safety concerns I had. If they think they can prevent me from working for doing what I thought was right, well there wrong. I will be a asset to a different company, and they will have to deal with the MOL inspector and the OLRB.



I hope you do get a great job and get registered but you probably will not be able to do that with a contractor as they will not be willing to pay you more than a basic apprentice no matter what previous skill set you process.
A large company would find you more interesting as they could put you to work while you gained the 442A but they may not be willing to help you get the 309A.


----------



## u2slow (Jan 2, 2014)

kb1jb1 said:


> I am glad we don't have your system of doing things here. It is sounding more and more convoluted.


Ontario is definitely unique... not all of Canada works this way.


----------



## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

AnonYmousElectricalGuy said:


> well either way, im going to get another job, and I bet I get a better job, and get registered. Overall its their loss, and their mistake. They should have discussed it with me any safety concerns I had. If they think they can prevent me from working for doing what I thought was right, well there wrong. I will be a asset to a different company, and they will have to deal with the MOL inspector and the OLRB.


Honestly dude ... wtf really happened.
You're all over the map with your story, it keeps changing, you question some of the most respected electricians on this site with crap you googled, and then you respond TELLING them you know different .... then you ask another question. And your story changes again.

Give the real story, or GTFO !

Who called MTO ?


----------



## ohm it hertz (Dec 2, 2020)

Well, that escalated quickly.

I'll get my popcorn.


----------



## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

ohm it hertz said:


> Well, that escalated quickly.
> 
> I'll get my popcorn.


Sorry, when my bullsh1t meter overloads ... It triggers me 

That, and there's no damn hockey on TV tonight !


----------



## Bluenose for rent (Nov 6, 2020)

We’ll you’ll probably find another job, your skills are very in demand, probably best if you want everything to go by the letter of the regulations, that you don’t work for a small contractor. If they’re not breaking the rules they’re usually at least bending them or they wouldn’t survive. Good luck.


----------



## BleedingLungsMurphy (10 mo ago)

emtnut said:


> bullsh1t meter overload


----------



## AnonYmousElectricalGuy (8 mo ago)

BleedingLungsMurphy said:


> View attachment 165685
> 
> 
> 
> How is it hackwork? explain how ? Regardless that its funny my name is anonymous electrical guy, and thats scooby doo unmasking.


----------



## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

Well, I see your still here, so I will answer your question in the Original Post.

Post: "Employer wont register me as a apprentice"
Answer: Cause they fired you.

I'll take "what should be revealed in the original post" for $2000 Alex


----------



## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

BleedingLungsMurphy said:


> ....


You wouldn't happen to be from Bow Chickawowwow are you ?? 😜


----------



## AnonYmousElectricalGuy (8 mo ago)

emtnut said:


> Well, I see your still here, so I will answer your question in the Original Post.
> 
> Post: "Employer wont register me as a apprentice"
> Answer: Cause they fired you.
> ...


Nah they fired me for thinking I needed to get registered to go to client sites to do electrical work safely and compliant with the ontario regulations. Which is illegal to do.


----------



## BleedingLungsMurphy (10 mo ago)

AnonYmousElectricalGuy said:


> Which is illegal to do.


Tell it to the judge. Please come back and let us know how it works out for you. Shouldn't you be out looking for a new job?


----------



## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

AnonYmousElectricalGuy said:


> Nah they fired me for thinking I needed to get registered to go to client sites to do electrical work safely and compliant with the ontario regulations. Which is illegal to do.


Good thing that you are not there. If I had an employer that knew what I was 'thinking', it would freak me out ... Maybe wear a tin hat at your next job, might help the mindreading ? Just trying to be helpful to a brother


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Who is going to be #100?


----------



## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

me


----------



## AnonYmousElectricalGuy (8 mo ago)

emtnut said:


> me


So to summarize, nobody really knows what license electrical workers need, and apparently, nobody cares either. Because apparently as a technologist I can do it all anyways, even tho nothing says that. I guess I can perform independent consulting as an electrical worker now without a license.


----------



## BleedingLungsMurphy (10 mo ago)

AnonYmousElectricalGuy said:


> nobody cares either






> apparently as a technologist I can do it all anyways


Yes, working under a licensed electrical contractor with appropriate insurance. You can't pull permits or start your own company.



> even tho nothing says that.


That.



> I guess I can perform independent consulting as an electrical worker now without a license


How are you going to get a business license and insurance without an electrical license and years of experience?


----------



## AnonYmousElectricalGuy (8 mo ago)

BleedingLungsMurphy said:


> Yes, working under a licensed electrical contractor with appropriate insurance. You can't pull permits or start your own company.
> 
> 
> That.
> ...


Well hold on, are you saying that I need to get a electrical license? How do I get that if its not doing electrical work as a apprentice


----------



## BleedingLungsMurphy (10 mo ago)

AnonYmousElectricalGuy said:


> are you saying that I need to get a electrical license?


Do you mean a contracting business license? You need more than an electrical ticket to work for yourself. You need experience or you won't be able to get liability insurance. If you want to start a company you can hire someone with a license and experience then go work under them. 

Why do you think you need a "license" to work under another license, anyway? Becoming indentured as an apprentice is not a "license" and does not qualify you to do anything that you weren't already doing for your previous employer.

You _were _an apprentice. You _could_ have been indentured. You chose to become a major liabilty and were fired. Now you will have to try twice as hard at your next employer to prove that you're capable of even finishing an apprenticeship or they won't waste their time on you.

Try to learn from the experience.


----------



## splatz (May 23, 2015)

It is a lot different in Canada. In the US somebody would have strangled this kid in his sleep by now which would be best for everyone.


----------



## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

splatz said:


> It is a lot different in Canada. In the US somebody would have strangled this kid in his sleep by now which would be best for everyone.


I'm convinced the OP isn't a Canadian at all. Not once has he said Sorry, said Canadian beer is better, talked about Kraft Dinnner, or bragged about hockey.


----------



## CAUSA (Apr 3, 2013)

AnonYmousElectricalGuy said:


> well either way, im going to get another job, and I bet I get a better job, and get registered. Overall its their loss, and their mistake. They should have discussed it with me any safety concerns I had. If they think they can prevent me from working for doing what I thought was right, well there wrong. I will be a asset to a different company, and they will have to deal with the MOL inspector and the OLRB.


A basic job description for a electrical technologist.
· Conduct design, setup, commissioning, testing and maintenance activities for automated machine control systems.
· Perform design calculations including load demand, voltage drop, cable ampacity, and prepare drawings, specifications, and sketches.
· Determine equipment sizing and selection.
· Assemble control systems and equipment and perform modifications and repair.
· Diagnose and troubleshoot problems.
· Assist with engineer to determine solutions or design improvements to resolve the control system problems.
· Ensure quality standards are met.
· Prepare engineering and technical reports, and other technical materials.

So If you did graduate and are worth the salt. 

You would rather fight with 350MCM conductor cable, or work with the engineering department in producing quality plans to facilitate a good product or project.

There is a reason for the rules of any province and apprenticeship program.

In the period training, will you challenge the instructors the same, as they do not know what they are talking about?

There is always 3 sides to every story. Yours, theirs, and then the truth.

Chin up and good luck.


----------



## Bluenose for rent (Nov 6, 2020)

BleedingLungsMurphy said:


> Yes, working under a licensed electrical contractor with appropriate insurance. You can't pull permits or start your own company.
> 
> 
> That.
> ...


And becoming a certified engineering technologist is more difficult than electrical redseal as I understand it.


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

It is because of some of the last post here, especially the one about Canadian beer and hockey, is why I question the OP. Could it be someone who is hired to keep the thread going for advertisement purposes? Or maybe for entertainment? Why are some of us drawn to responding.


----------



## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

kb1jb1 said:


> It is because of some of the last post here, especially the one about Canadian beer and hockey, is why I question the OP. Could it be someone who is hired to keep the thread going for advertisement purposes? Or maybe for entertainment? Why are some of us drawn to responding.


I think it's the we tard did aspect of it all

Kinda like morbid fascination of bad accidents.


----------



## u2slow (Jan 2, 2014)

AnonYmousElectricalGuy said:


> So to summarize, nobody really knows what license electrical workers need, and apparently, nobody cares either. Because apparently as a technologist I can do it all anyways, even tho nothing says that. I guess I can perform independent consulting as an electrical worker now without a license.


In BC, Technical Safety BC outlines all that explicitly.





Electrical Licences | TSBC


Learn how to apply for or renew your BC Electrical licence.




www.technicalsafetybc.ca





What's up with Ontario? Is there no electrical safety authority?


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Are we aiming for 200?


----------



## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

u2slow said:


> In BC, Technical Safety BC outlines all that explicitly.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's also in his Code book ... but seems he spends all his time on the Ministry of Labour site.
Navyguy gave all the answers, and a few others too including myself, but he chooses to ignore, or @kb1jb1 nailed it and he's a troll.

Ontario is the wild wild west 
Our Authority has a web page as well, not sure if there is a link on the Ministry of Labour page.


----------



## AnonYmousElectricalGuy (8 mo ago)

u2slow said:


> In BC, Technical Safety BC outlines all that explicitly.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





emtnut said:


> It's also in his Code book ... but seems he spends all his time on the Ministry of Labour site.
> Navyguy gave all the answers, and a few others too including myself, but he chooses to ignore, or @kb1jb1 nailed it and he's a troll.
> 
> Ontario is the wild wild west
> Our Authority has a web page as well, not sure if there is a link on the Ministry of Labour page.


Thats for a electrical contractor license for a company like to get a ECRA/ESA number for the company, not a registered apprentice within the company, or a licensed electrician... How to Verify a Licensed Electrical Contractor you still need licensed electricians and apprentices in the company on top of that.. Its the responsibility of the electrical contractor to follow all applicable laws under OHSA, which included BOSDA, which says workers performing electrical work should be in a apprentice program or a licensed electrician..


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

How many degrees of bend are you allowed in a single conduit run? If a post light is installed 4 meters from a pool, does it require GFCI protection?


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

A bad accident.


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Is today a normal work day in Canada? We have a holiday today but there are too many people on the road and it is to hot out to do yard work. So adult beverages and watching the squirrels and birds build a nest.


----------



## AnonYmousElectricalGuy (8 mo ago)

kb1jb1 said:


> How many degrees of bend are you allowed in a single conduit run? If a post light is installed 4 meters from a pool, does it require GFCI protection?


second question is yes needs GFCI its an outdoor light near water, first question I dont know the answer to, but I am not a licensed electrician, I am a technologist, who was looking to get licensed.. I could probably find the answer though.


----------



## CAUSA (Apr 3, 2013)

AnonYmousElectricalGuy said:


> Well hold on, are you saying that I need to get a electrical license? How do I get that if its not doing electrical work as a apprentice


See below:

Ontario Electrical Safety Code - Electrical Safety Authority (ESA) (esasafe.com) 

For the program in Ontario:

Apprenticeship – Skilled Trades Ontario 

Find a employer to sign you on, and challenge first and second level.


----------



## AnonYmousElectricalGuy (8 mo ago)

CAUSA said:


> See below:
> 
> Ontario Electrical Safety Code - Electrical Safety Authority (ESA) (esasafe.com)
> 
> ...


ESA safe is just for companies to obtain ECRA/ESA numbers and to report companies without them, or electrical inspections of permits. They dont care if the work is done by workers who are not electricians or apprentices.

Skilled Trades Ontario is for apprentices who are already registered or licensed electricians. They dont help people who are looking to get registered, it has some basic information about an apprentice. They tell you to contact Ministry of Labour, Training and Skills Development and job search. MOL skilled trades is who I contacted about doing work that needed to be registered but was not under a licensed electrical contractor.


----------



## CAUSA (Apr 3, 2013)

Read all below in your quote in RED.



AnonYmousElectricalGuy said:


> ESA safe is just for companies to obtain ECRA/ESA numbers and to report companies without them, or electrical inspections of permits. (They dont care if the work is done by workers who are not electricians or apprentices.) YES they do! When something happens and there is a investigation. All parties, have some input depending on severity.
> 
> Skilled Trades Ontario is for apprentices who are already registered or licensed electricians. They dont help people who are looking to get registered, it has some basic information about an apprentice. They tell you to contact Ministry of Labour, Training and Skills Development and job search. MOL skilled trades is who I contacted about doing work that needed to be registered but was not under a licensed electrical contractor.
> 
> To challenge the exam, yes they deal with you.


Yo, This is not my first rodeo.
Trying to help you out. You should read the post for what it is not what you think it is.

Just like you should, Read the area for challenging levels of the exam. This is in the Skilled trades counselor area.


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

emtnut said:


> It's also in his Code book ... but seems he spends all his time on the Ministry of Labour site.
> Navyguy gave all the answers, and a few others too including myself, but he chooses to ignore, or @kb1jb1 nailed it and he's a troll.
> 
> Ontario is the wild wild west
> Our Authority has a web page as well, not sure if there is a link on the Ministry of Labour page.


Post #118 provides an answer to your statement about spending more time in the MoL pages than a code book. He can't answer two very basic apprentice questions let alone know where to look them up.

Like a bad accident. Time for another adult beverage.


----------



## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

AnonYmousElectricalGuy said:


> Thats for a electrical contractor license for a company like to get a ECRA/ESA number for the company, not a registered apprentice within the company, or a licensed electrician... How to Verify a Licensed Electrical Contractor you still need licensed electricians and apprentices in the company on top of that.. Its the responsibility of the electrical contractor to follow all applicable laws under OHSA, which included BOSDA, which says workers performing electrical work should be in a apprentice program or a licensed electrician..


Wow, who woulda thought that's all they do !


----------



## AnonYmousElectricalGuy (8 mo ago)

kb1jb1 said:


> Is today a normal work day in Canada? We have a holiday today but there are too many people on the road and it is to hot out to do yard work. So adult beverages and watching the squirrels and birds build a nest.


Your something else, its sad your a electrical contractor, you are rude, you dont know the law, and you pick on others.


kb1jb1 said:


> Post #118 provides an answer to your statement about spending more time in the MoL pages than a code book. He can't answer two very basic apprentice questions let alone know where to look them up.
> 
> Like a bad accident. Time for another adult beverage.


Your something else Buddy. Hopefully you never do electrical in canada, as your ignorant, think you know it all, but the reality is, you dont. Your not a canadian electrician, so who cares what you think your advise is garbage.


----------



## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

Well, that should be the end of this train wreck.


----------



## CMP (Oct 30, 2019)

You usually don’t get rid of poindexter’s that easily, nobody else wants them either. Thats why he’s here, quoting walls of regulations for us. Didn’t work on the boss either.


----------



## AnonYmousElectricalGuy (8 mo ago)

CMP said:


> You usually don’t get rid of poindexter’s that easily, nobody else wants them either. Thats why he’s here, quoting walls of regulations for us. Didn’t work on the boss either.


Your not even a canadian licensed electrician? Your just some bum troll off the street trying to stoke fires. Laws are laws for reasons. They are suppose to be followed for the same reasons.


----------



## gpop (May 14, 2018)

AnonYmousElectricalGuy said:


> Your not even a canadian licensed electrician?


Takes one to know one


----------



## CMP (Oct 30, 2019)

You can think of me any way you like. I’ve been a legal licensed master and contractor for the last 40 years.

Maybe you should have looked at those laws, before you went off to technologist school. Give some feedback to your teachers that they didn’t school you on the legal requirements to actually work in the field that they trained you for.

The real world operates slightly differently than what the law says. As you are starting to find out. Setting your boss up by voluntarily working illegally, according to the laws, and then trying to frame him, in order to meet the demands that you set, is never going to work.

Good luck in your endeavors, with the attitude you currently portray, your certainly going to need some.


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Those who can't do, teach. Those who can't teach, teach those who teach. Those who can't teach those who teach, become government bureaucrats who make up laws to regulate those who can do.


----------



## ohm it hertz (Dec 2, 2020)

AnonYmousElectricalGuy said:


> Your something else, its sad your a electrical contractor, you are rude, you dont know the law, and you pick on others.
> 
> Your something else Buddy. Hopefully you never do electrical in canada, as your ignorant, think you know it all, but the reality is, you dont. Your not a canadian electrician, so who cares what you think your advise is garbage.


Dude, seriously - get thicker skin. My toddler can handle criticism better than you do. Truth be told after reading all your responses you would NEVER make it in the trades with your attitude. You were a computer programmer in an office cubicle, maybe you belong there doing something similar like electrical engineering.


----------



## BillyMac59 (Sep 12, 2019)

To all my American friends and tradespeople on this website - for the love of God Almighty, please don't think all of us Canadians - electrical workers or otherwise - are similar to the OP. I'm afraid he's representative of too many of today's youth - wanting things given without them being earned. Given his latest posts, I would respectfully ask our moderators to bid him adieu.


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

BillyMac59 said:


> To all my American friends and tradespeople on this website - for the love of God Almighty, please don't think all of us Canadians - electrical workers or otherwise - are similar to the OP. I'm afraid he's representative of too many of today's youth - wanting things given without them being earned. Given his latest posts, I would respectfully ask our moderators to bid him adieu.


You made a interesting point. It must be a generational thing. Those of us over 40 / 50 years old have a different way of thinking. I was talking with a friend last week who was saying his son was complaining that it is unfair that he has to work and he should be going to the beach and having a good time with his friends while he is still young. He is 25 years old living at home.


----------



## AnonYmousElectricalGuy (8 mo ago)

kb1jb1 said:


> You made a interesting point. It must be a generational thing. Those of us over 40 / 50 years old have a different way of thinking. I was talking with a friend last week who was saying his son was complaining that it is unfair that he has to work and he should be going to the beach and having a good time with his friends while he is still young. He is 25 years old living at home.


Is he a licensed electrician?


----------



## BillyMac59 (Sep 12, 2019)

You just don't give up, do you? At least that's one character trait you've exhibited that would be admirable in a prospective employer's eyes. Yes, I am a licensed electrician in your home province and have been licensed since 1992. When you think you can quote the OESC as well as you do MoL and OHSA documentation, and you think you can carry my toolbag, look me up. I might even offer to sign your apprenticeship papers.


----------



## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

My son is 27. He's in the construction union, and is now foreman at the utility company he works with.

He made that promotion in 2.5 yrs. Obviously I'm proud of him, but he worked HARD for it. Never late to show up (always quite early), and always worked hard even when the job wasn't busy.

I think it's the kids that were coddled just a bit too much that have the entitlement issues.


----------



## u2slow (Jan 2, 2014)

AnonYmousElectricalGuy said:


> Is he a licensed electrician?


You look more credible if you get your terms straight. Canadian Electricians (journeymen/journey-worker) possess a Certificate of Qualification - either provincial or a Red Seal. Contractors are 'licensed'.

I was 'licensed' for 3 years, and don't care to ever bother with it again.


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

I think this thread has gone on long enough... 

This thread is








ed


----------

