# 2 wire for GFI ?



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

mike1 said:


> I was at a job, HO's are selling their old home. I replaced quite a few 3 prong outlets w/2 prong because of old RX w/no ground wire. Also installed GFI's where needed, buyers *home inspection* wants the GFI's grounded. Trying to find in code book it doesn't have to be, anyone know where it is?


My bold on *key* word 

The onus of _any _code related proof should be on this entity, otherwise his existence is moot

~CS~


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Ask him why he "wants" them grounded?
It is expressly allowed in the code that they do not need to be grounded, so find out where his special need comes from.


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## mike1 (Jul 12, 2014)

I just want to show HO that it doesn't have to be grounded so they can relay this to the buyers.


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

mike1 said:


> I just want to show HO that it doesn't have to be grounded so they can relay this to the buyers.


406.4(D)(2) requires 3 types of installs where there is no EGC.


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## mike1 (Jul 12, 2014)

Thanks a lot Roger123, I just found that right before you replied!!


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

mike1 said:


> Thanks a lot Roger123, I just found that right before you replied!!


Glad to be of help.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Electrician: 4 years minimum apprenticeship with OJT as well as off-hours classroom training (with certified instructors), 2 years minimum JW, then take the Masters test. Obtain license. Then to maintain said license, take annual CEUs. Insurance and bonding is usually required as well. Net result in eyes of the public: An over-priced know-nothing.

Home Inspector: _Maybe_ a week or two of 'training' (which consists mostly of a person droning stuff out in hopes that some of it sticks), buy a $40 "What To Look For" book, hang out shingle. Net result in eyes of the public: A building god.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

I went through this with the department of socialist services a couple years back.

Sent from my C5215 using electriciantalk.com mobile app


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## Bob Sisson (Dec 17, 2012)

If the HI had been to school recently, he would know that GFCI's don't care about ground's at all. Send him back to school. (if he ever went)

Untrained HI's will also complain when their idiot testers won't trip an ungrounded GFCI. The only way you can test an ungrounded GFCI is with their test button. (unless you have a rube goldberg tester with an external ground clip/wire)

(From another Home Inspector who thinks untrained HI's give the profession a bad rep.)


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

If I was buying a home I would want them grounded also. That GFCI exception is a joke. It may save a life(but I doubt it) but it will not save my TV. 
Code isn't everything.


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## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

sbrn33 said:


> If I was buying a home I would want them grounded also. That GFCI exception is a joke. It may save a life(but I doubt it) but it will not save my TV.
> Code isn't everything.


How do you think an equipment grounding conductor will "save your tv" any differently than a gfci?

Please explain.


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## Bob Sisson (Dec 17, 2012)

In reality, yes I would -prefer- them to be grounded, but in many of the old houses I inspect, that is not an option as the wire is the 2-conductor cloth/rubber predecessor to NM. Short of a destructive rewire or an external ground wire, it isn't going to happen.

On medium old houses with BX, sometimes the local electrician will "ground" the outlet to the BX if it has the Bonding Strip. A lot of old houses had BX in the exterior walls because they were masonry, and then cloth for the interior walls.

I generally suggest power strips/UPS's in older houses and I remind people that EVERYTHING that touches the device to be protected needs to go through the same protection strip. Power, Enet, Cable, phone, EVERYTHING. I have seen lots of surges come through Coax and phone lines around the fancy surge protection strip and zap a supposedly protected device.

A GFCI will trip the same regardless if there is a ground or not. The ground is not used AT ALL in determining when to trip. It is there to provide a path for a connected devices ground, but it doesn't care if that is used or if the device is grounded to a local pipe, radiator, or external ground rod.

Simplistic explanation: GFCI's have a very sensitive current sensor on *-both-* the hot and the neutral. If the current is DIFFERENT between them, there is current leaking out somewhere, and if it is above the threshold, it trips. This is why GFCI's don't like really long wires or inductive loads, as the current in one leg may be delayed vs. the other leg. Where the current is leaking, the GFCI doesn't care, it can be to the ground wire if it exists, or an alternative path (like through you!).

Note: GFCI's won't trip on common mode faults. Ie if you get between the hot and the neutral and are NOT grounded, 100% of the current goes THROUGH YOU, it will not trip as their is no "fault" current or difference between the Hot and Neutral currents. You are in parallel with the real load.

This is also why GFCI BREAKERS (not outlets) don't like shared neutrals and why both legs of a GFCI protected circuit must be connected to the GFCI Breaker.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

EBFD6 said:


> How do you think an equipment grounding conductor will "save your tv" any differently than a gfci?
> 
> Please explain.


Surge strips require a ground.


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## madrone48 (Aug 15, 2012)

sbrn33 said:


> That GFCI exception is a joke. It may save a life(but I doubt it)


How do you figure? Tripping in milliseconds vs whenever the breaker decides it's overloaded? Girl, you crazy.


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## Bob Sisson (Dec 17, 2012)

"Surge Strips require ground" is not quite/fully correct...

Most surge strips have devices between all of the legs and each other AND Ground.

If the Surge is just between a leg and ground, you are correct that the surge device will be useless. Most surges however are multi-dimensional and the devices will short all they can to whatever they can, be it Gnd or the Neutral. Most are fully conducting by about 330v. ( their 'clamp' voltage).

However, I have seen a surge COME IN THE NEUTRAL and do lots of damage, and since the neutral isn't fused there was nothing stopping in. 

Found out the "Ground" wasn't very good. Ground rod was in a dry location and had corroded over time and was quite short...so not very good. Surge came in on all phases looking for a way to ground, found other paths through electronic devices that had other ground path such as Phones, Television (coax), ethernet and lots of other things... Blew the main surge device off the wall took and threw it across the room in a smoldering pile of bits.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

Bob Sisson said:


> "Surge Strips require ground" is not quite/fully correct...
> 
> Most surge strips have devices between all of the legs and each other AND Ground.
> 
> ...


 Did you try the AC forum ? I have a major AC problem this morning on a referral job I gave. Need to sort out who's wrong. Or do you have another AC forum you can give me ?


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Bob Sisson said:


> "Surge Strips require ground" is not quite/fully correct...
> 
> Most surge strips have devices between all of the legs and each other AND Ground.
> 
> ...




Sure arrestors need a ground to function when the surge is phase or neutral to ground. Yes they don't need a ground when its neutral to phase, but anything involving potential to ground does. 

Also, just to point out, even a good ground rod wont help with an open neutral, which is what you describe. Ground rods make little difference other than in reducing the damage during a lightning strike.


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