# In an Industrial setting - Dual Function (CAFCI and GFCI) Circuit Breaker use?



## mattjmurph (Oct 13, 2021)

I know that a, Dual Function (CAFCI and GFCI) Circuit Breaker is more bent for residential use, in kitchens, laundry rooms and such.

Though, I was curious, and looking for opinions, always like others take on things;

Do you think it would be wise to use a, Dual Function (CAFCI and GFCI) Circuit Breaker 20 amp, for convenience receptacles, in an industrial facility area, that is more for storage. 

It would save on running, extra conduit, and wire, using the breakers. 

What are your thoughts.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

Why? 

Why on God's green earth would you willingly want to install an AFCI?

I am curious how this saves money or materials, maybe I am completely lost on what you are asking?


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## mattjmurph (Oct 13, 2021)

Switched said:


> Why?
> 
> Why on God's green earth would you willingly want to install an AFCI?
> 
> I am curious how this saves money or materials, maybe I am completely lost on what you are asking?


Not my idea, it is the plant engineer. 

This is going to be for 12 receptacles, total. All of which are installed on I-Beams, conduit coming from the ceiling, 65 feet above, dropping down inside the beam to a 4x4 box for the receptacles. The feed comes to the first box, then another pipe goes back up and continues to the next box. 

These boxes for where the receptacles are going are 80 feet apart. 


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

There's no possible way I would ever install an AFCI unless it was required by code. 

They simply do not do what they are advertised to do. A complete waste of money.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

Most industrial facilities I worked at didn't have plug on panels, bolt on was the norm. And if that is the case, you would have to either add a sub panel to support the dual function AFCI/GFCI unit, or install a GFCI bolt on breaker and then install an AFCI receptacle...

All of which is increasing the cost and the headache, without doing anything that increases the benefit.


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## mattjmurph (Oct 13, 2021)

Switched said:


> Most industrial facilities I worked at didn't have plug on panels, bolt on was the norm. And if that is the case, you would have to either add a sub panel to support the dual function AFCI/GFCI unit, or install a GFCI bolt on breaker and then install an AFCI receptacle...
> 
> All of which is increasing the cost and the headache, without doing anything that increases the benefit.


GFCI breaker would suffice. I said, heck with the combination breaker.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Don't introduce any aggravation/headaches when you don't have to. GFCI is one thing, AFCI is another.


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

mattjmurph said:


> Not my idea, it is the *plant engineer*.


LoL, well that explains it 🤣


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## mattjmurph (Oct 13, 2021)

nrp3 said:


> Don't introduce any aggravation/headaches when you don't have to. GFCI is one thing, AFCI is another.


Agreed, that is what the so called plant engineer said and wrote down, on the paperwork. I explain there is no need for afci. He went into this whole list of reason why. I said GFCI breaker will be fine. He walked away, said I was right. Go with that. Interesting person he is.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

He has no field experience.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

nrp3 said:


> He has no field experience.



No brains either.........


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I'll keep my opinions to myself. 10 yrs from now we might have a product worthy of installation. It's ok, our time and effort isn't worth anything and we can all be willing unpaid guinea pigs...


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

mattjmurph said:


> Agreed, that is what the so called plant engineer said and wrote down, on the paperwork. I explain there is no need for afci. He went into this whole list of reason why. I said GFCI breaker will be fine. He walked away, said I was right. Go with that. Interesting person he is.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I’m curious to know more about this “interesting person”.

Because I have a pretty good feeling you are the plant engineer, and you have fake your credentials through a gentleman named Andy from Jamaica Queens New York who has been fraudulently certifying engineering credentials for many people who don’t really have any.

Keep your eye on the news. If you have a Plan B, I suggest you seriously consider it now.

Every single post you have made here does not show your plant engineer in a good light,…

but by the same token, it is also clear to me that you don’t have a clue either, in my humble opinion.


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## mattjmurph (Oct 13, 2021)

LGLS said:


> I’m curious to know more about this “interesting person”.
> 
> Because I have a pretty good feeling you are the plant engineer, and you have fake your credentials through a gentleman named Andy from Jamaica Queens New York who has been fraudulently certifying engineering credentials for many people who don’t really have any.
> 
> ...


No I’m not the plant engineer at all. I’m just an electrician. That got brought into this place. This individual is retiring in about a year, left the company, years ago and came back before I got here. 

Says he is a master electrician and what not, and has a journeyman’s card from the local 5. Checked into that, they have no idea who he is. A lot of what has been done, has been band aided together, not properly supported, all kind of things that wouldn’t fly. 

So I’m fixing what I can. A lot of the times he gets all the parts he thinks we need from Amazon and not a SH. Which is a joke. Orders wrong things, or just doesn’t get them. 

As for instance, an MCC that is beneath a water holding tank, that leaks on the MCC. His solution was to put a tarp over the MCC. Well it should t have been installed there in the first place. 

Nothing is red lined at all, have no idea what is what. 


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## mattjmurph (Oct 13, 2021)

LGLS said:


> I’m curious to know more about this “interesting person”.
> 
> Because I have a pretty good feeling you are the plant engineer, and you have fake your credentials through a gentleman named Andy from Jamaica Queens New York who has been fraudulently certifying engineering credentials for many people who don’t really have any.
> 
> ...


Oh I have a clue, this place doesn’t, as things in the past before I got here, were never done correctly at all, trying to figure it out is crazy. What you think something is, it certainly isn’t. 

And btw I don’t live anywhere near NY City, that is hours away from me in another state. 

My credentials are proven, and definitely can be shown, and looked up publicly. I hide nothing. 

I’m just trying to get my head around, what has been done, and how to best address going forward, and do it right, with what I am dealing with, hence the fact I ask a question to solicit opinions. 


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## mattjmurph (Oct 13, 2021)

LGLS said:


> I’m curious to know more about this “interesting person”.
> 
> Because I have a pretty good feeling you are the plant engineer, and you have fake your credentials through a gentleman named Andy from Jamaica Queens New York who has been fraudulently certifying engineering credentials for many people who don’t really have any.
> 
> ...


Oh and BTW, making such claims as you did, was inappropriate, and extremely unprofessional. When anyone posts a question, either answer it without you condemning them or making claims as you did with out any facts.

It is comments like that, is partly the reason people don’t go into the trades, why even put up with it. Some of the people that have more experience don’t like sharing or showing what they know to others, just coming up into it. They believe they should know everything you know. Which is wrong. REMEMBER, once not to long ago you sir didn’t know what you know today. 

Either pass it along in a position fashion or keep your mouth shut. 

Nothing wrong with making jokes and having fun, though there is something wrong with being arrogant and condescending to others because they didn’t have the knowledge you gained over years of working or on the job experience. 


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

micromind said:


> No brains either.........


You beat me to it 🤣


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

LGLS said:


> I’m curious to know more about this “interesting person”.
> 
> Because I have a pretty good feeling you are the plant engineer, and you have fake your credentials through a gentleman named Andy from Jamaica Queens New York who has been fraudulently certifying engineering credentials for many people who don’t really have any.
> 
> ...


I could understand working under a plant engineer with no field experience. At a pharmaceutical plant I briefly worked at, the plant engineers were clueless about electricity and had us doing some really costly and unnecessary stuff. He would spent thousands of dollars on explosion proof motors and materials for equipment that was not rated for hazardous locations. Then they put SO cords on everything so they could move it around. I was the trouble maker when I started referring to the NEC. My big mouth sort of put a stop to a major project where they were going to put a classified area filling room in the middle of the building. These are engineers who thought as long as you use class 1 division 1 or 2 listed equipment you are good to go. What about the walls and drop ceiling I asked.


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## SWDweller (Dec 9, 2020)

I have put Nema 3R MCC's in the basement of a school building because of water leaks 3-4 times a year. Way easier to make the equipment water proof than to be filing the paper work for replacements. Using a tarp, that would make me look for a new job. Unless he was laughing when he said it. Just because he passed a test? Does not make him the lord god of electrical work.


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## samgregger (Jan 23, 2013)

You better put that breaker in the room the outlets are in (like in a little 2 space disco) because it's going to trip and you can at least make it easy to reset


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

mattjmurph said:


> I know that a, Dual Function (CAFCI and GFCI) Circuit Breaker is more bent for residential use, in kitchens, laundry rooms and such.
> 
> Though, I was curious, and looking for opinions, always like others take on things;
> 
> ...


1. GFCI sure. Read OSHA letter of interpretation with regard to GFCI or assured grounding carefully. But also be aware that due to common mode currents GFCI and VFDs do not get along.
2. AFCI doesn’t do anything but decrease reliability. It works by looking for a voltage pattern resembling arcing. This also appears even with normal functions, especially switching power supplies. These devices supposedly try to distinguish the difference but that fails in practice. So again it’s simply not a good idea.
3. The NEC CMP covering this section of the Code is almost entirely made up of manufacturers pushing use of these things in complete violation of the NFPA guidelines. The theory behind AFCI is something called wood pyrolysis. This is BS from a government entity, the CPSC. The theory is that staples through NM-B into a wood structure that penetrate it accidentally create a current path through the wood to ground which carbonizes abc eventually creates an arc and lights the wood on fire. This entire theory is easily debunked on many levels. Even if it were true it doesn’t apply to steel structures or those without NM-B wiring.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

mattjmurph said:


> Not my idea, it is the plant engineer.


The circuit breaker manufacturers will be giving this guy a Lifetime Achievement Award.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

mattjmurph said:


> No I’m not the plant engineer at all. I’m just an electrician. That got brought into this place. This individual is retiring in about a year, left the company, years ago and came back before I got here.
> 
> Says he is a master electrician and what not, and has a journeyman’s card from the local 5. Checked into that, they have no idea who he is. A lot of what has been done, has been band aided together, not properly supported, all kind of things that wouldn’t fly.
> 
> ...


Tarp? A condensate pan & plumbed drain is the way that goes.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

mattjmurph said:


> No I’m not the plant engineer at all. I’m just an electrician. That got brought into this place. This individual is retiring in about a year, left the company, years ago and came back before I got here.
> Says he is a master electrician and what not, and has a journeyman’s card from the local 5. Checked into that, they have no idea who he is. A lot of what has been done, has been band aided together, not properly supported, all kind of things that wouldn’t fly.
> 
> So I’m fixing what I can. A lot of the times he gets all the parts he thinks we need from Amazon and not a SH. Which is a joke. Orders wrong things, or just doesn’t get them.
> ...





mattjmurph said:


> Oh and BTW, making such claims as you did, was inappropriate, and extremely unprofessional. When anyone posts a question, either answer it without you condemning them or making claims as you did with out any facts.
> 
> It is comments like that, is partly the reason people don’t go into the trades, why even put up with it. Some of the people that have more experience don’t like sharing or showing what they know to others, just coming up into it. They believe they should know everything you know. Which is wrong. REMEMBER, once not to long ago you sir didn’t know what you know today.
> 
> ...





mattjmurph said:


> Oh I have a clue, this place doesn’t, as things in the past before I got here, were never done correctly at all, trying to figure it out is crazy. What you think something is, it certainly isn’t.
> 
> And btw I don’t live anywhere near NY City, that is hours away from me in another state.
> 
> ...


Is this guy still leaving soon? The brick wall your hitting is likely because he’s not really qualified and experienced, and you’re a threat to him.
I hate office politics. But if you take a steady regular job at a fixed location that’s part of the package.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

mattjmurph said:


> Oh and BTW, making such claims as you did, was inappropriate, and extremely unprofessional. When anyone posts a question, either answer it without you condemning them or making claims as you did with out any facts.
> 
> It is comments like that, is partly the reason people don’t go into the trades, why even put up with it. Some of the people that have more experience don’t like sharing or showing what they know to others, just coming up into it. They believe they should know everything you know. Which is wrong. REMEMBER, once not to long ago you sir didn’t know what you know today.
> 
> ...


You’re absolutely right, I had a suspicion because lots of people who aren’t regulars post here and are looking for wiring instructions, pretending to comply with the board’s rules. I was outta line and for that my sincerest apologies.

Tread lightly and bide your time until he retires. “CYA” when instructed to do the wrong thing or 1/2 ass something. You’re tryna do the right solid thing, but sounds like he’s on a power trip and more concerned with your bucking his authority and/or making him feel inferior than the actual viability/safety of the end result.

He’s not the first to play “fake it till you make it” and won’t be the last. The higher ups are heaping attaboys on him because they’re more concerned with things like his propensity to source the cheapest parts, than the fact that his work is doggie doo do. They’re only looking at the bottom line.

And again, sorry for jumping down your throat.


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## mattjmurph (Oct 13, 2021)

LGLS said:


> You’re absolutely right, I had a suspicion because lots of people who aren’t regulars post here and are looking for wiring instructions, pretending to comply with the board’s rules. I was outta line and for that my sincerest apologies.
> 
> Tread lightly and bide your time until he retires. “CYA” when instructed to do the wrong thing or 1/2 ass something. You’re tryna do the right solid thing, but sounds like he’s on a power trip and more concerned with your bucking his authority and/or making him feel inferior than the actual viability/safety of the end result.
> 
> ...


Apology accepted, and I thank you for doing so. I appreciate, you taking the time sharing your insights. 

Reason, I don’t post much, as I just learned about the forum. So I’m learning it as I go. There is a lot of good posts on here.

I myself, am somewhat new to this, and what I have learned from previous experience, from some very talented people. Always want to learn more from experience and talent people, such as yourself 

So when I came to where I am now and saw a lot of what has been done, isn’t what I was taught. So it made me question a lot of it.

Frankly, I have come to the conclusion they didn’t give a damn, and just did it because it worked. But didn’t work right. 

I don’t do half ass work, I do it right, so I don’t have to do it again. Or it breaks afterwards. 

Maybe I care to much, however this place has tremendous potential, just needs someone who cares about there work to do it. 

As for the others, they are at there end of there career, so I can of understand that mindset, it isn’t acceptable. Though I understand it.

I always will ask other for opinions, and for better ways to do things, so I myself can become better at what I do. 

Thank you again for your help and insights. Anymore you can share will be much appreciated. 


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

mattjmurph said:


> Apology accepted, and I thank you for doing so. I appreciate, you taking the time sharing your insights.
> 
> Reason, I don’t post much, as I just learned about the forum. So I’m learning it as I go. There is a lot of good posts on here.
> 
> ...


A thought occurred to me… if he’s suggesting 1/2 ass plans as a way to pick your brain and see if you know the right way?
At any rate, keep posting and don’t hesitate to ask for advice or just 2nd opinions. When I look back over my career and the sheer numbers of people that I have worked with, it becomes clear that we all have a propensity (sans a couple wildcard hacks) To achieve the best possible result efficiently and with the least amount of effort. And that is not limited to our electrical work…


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## mattjmurph (Oct 13, 2021)

LGLS said:


> A thought occurred to me… if he’s suggesting 1/2 ass plans as a way to pick your brain and see if you know the right way?
> At any rate, keep posting and don’t hesitate to ask for advice or just 2nd opinions. When I look back over my career and the sheer numbers of people that I have worked with, it becomes clear that we all have a propensity (sans a couple wildcard hacks) To achieve the best possible result efficiently and with the least amount of effort. And that is not limited to our electrical work…


Most of the ideas he mentions are half ass. That is my opinion. 

Earlier today, I had mentioned that I need the following: 


1/4 beam clamps qty: 12
1/4 1/2 inch Phillips round screws qty: 50
1/4 lock washers qty: 50
1/2 mini’s qty: 20
3/8 square washers, for a strut trapeze.


He absolutely had no idea what I was referring to.

He said, we have a drawer full of machine screws, that he brought in from a previous plant he worked at, how it got it and brought it in, I have no idea. 

The drawer was full of, self tappers, aka zip screws, 10/32 and 10/24 screws and 8/32 screws. 

He said use those screws, umm no. 

From the posts on here, and the interactions with this person, he has no field experience what so ever, and gets arrogant, thinking he knows it all. That is a huge complaint from the others I work with say about this person.

Anyways, at least he is retiring in a few months. 

I personally do not know it all, I learn something new each day, I enjoy that. Look forward to it. 

I will not half ass something, or just band aid it together. I get it that at times you have to just make it work, till the right part comes in, then when it does you fix it right, though he won’t get the right part or never orders it.


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## mattjmurph (Oct 13, 2021)

Thank you everyone for your insights and advice.


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## mattjmurph (Oct 13, 2021)

99cents said:


> The circuit breaker manufacturers will be giving this guy a Lifetime Achievement Award.


His life goal is get disability. He injured his bank very bad, before I got here, was to be out for the remain of his tenure , but for some dumb ass reason he came back way to earlier. Against doctors orders. 


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