# Accurate drawings...just once...please



## mburtis (Sep 1, 2018)

I just have to laugh every time I go to do something in any panel. If the drawing are there it's like the first engineering draft and is completely wrong. Just once I would like to find a drawing that actually represented what was in front of me, pretty sure those are like Bigfoot though. A few poeple think they have seen them, a few more poeple think they exist, everyone else doesn't believe in them.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

If the prints were up to date, anyone could fix it!


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## BillyMac59 (Sep 12, 2019)

I've been at this for 30+ years and long ago gave up on accurate prints. Most times, I'm lucky/happy to find the "close enough" set.


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## mburtis (Sep 1, 2018)

Then there's goofy stuff like this. It's just a singal isolator, but there's no rhym or reason to why it's there, nor is it on the prints. It's on one single pump speed feedback. This pump sits right next to two other identical pumps that don't have one. I'm sure somebody had a reason for putting it in there but I'll never know what it was.


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## BillyMac59 (Sep 12, 2019)

A half finished project? Some kind of "prove running" signal maybe. Where does the signal go?


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Drawings are just artwork you hang on the panel door.


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## Breakfasteatre (Sep 8, 2009)

that's an expensive panel with those lamacoid device labels

we build panels at our shop, we continuously make changes to the drawings and try to include the most up to date version in the panel, but once changes are made in the field, good luck

on top of that, you have useless maintenance going into panels screwing everything up even more


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Apparently that's a signal isolator

Model 4380 | Process Signal Converter/Isolator protects electronic circuits by completely isolating the input and output signals from each other and from ground. Zero and span adjustments are easily accessible on top of housing. | Dwyer Instruments (dwyer-inst.com)

Love Controls Process Signal Converter/Isolator (mmcontrol.com)

So it looks like you could use it if you had a 4-20ma or 0-10V signal that you needed to isolate from ground, but the source is grounded, so you run it through this thing and it's isolated from ground. 

I had a fancy pump controller and to program it to do what we wanted we needed one 4-20ma signal on two inputs. Because the input card inputs were not isolated, you could not loop through one into the other. This would have solved that problem. (I used a similar device, a 4-20ma splitter that duplicates a 4-20ma signal on one input to four outputs.)


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## glen1971 (Oct 10, 2012)

mburtis said:


> Then there's goofy stuff like this. It's just a singal isolator, but there's no rhym or reason to why it's there, nor is it on the prints. It's on one single pump speed feedback. This pump sits right next to two other identical pumps that don't have one. I'm sure somebody had a reason for putting it in there but I'll never know what it was.
> View attachment 163407


I've seen some VFDs that use them on the speed signals to or from a PLC, depending on where the power source is. It's odd that only one of 3 pumps have it though. Maybe a past issue that this resolved?


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

glen1971 said:


> I've seen some VFDs that use them on the speed signals to or from a PLC, depending on where the power source is. It's odd that only one of 3 pumps have it though. Maybe a past issue that this resolved?


Some places I've seen, those isolators actually come with the parts cannon. It's a kit


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## mburtis (Sep 1, 2018)

ValeoBill said:


> A half finished project? Some kind of "prove running" signal maybe. Where does the signal go?


I have no idea the reasoning. It was on a 4-20ma speed feedback from a chemical pump. However this pump sat next to two other identical pumps and the feedbacks from them aren't isolated. Ive sorta adopted the policy that anything that leaves the building or is attached to something leaving the building (a pipe) will get an isolator to protect the plc. I can't think of a reason these would have needed it, it was configured for current in and current out, who knows. Some of the wiring isn't in the channels its suppose to be on the plc too. Who knows maybe they had some troubles and were burning out channels. We have since removed this pump and I'm reusing the wiring for some new chemical flowmeters.


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## mburtis (Sep 1, 2018)

Breakfasteatre said:


> on top of that, you have useless maintenance going into panels screwing everything up even more


Easy killer, most contractors I deal with can't spell PLC. 😀


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## CMP (Oct 30, 2019)

mburtis said:


> I just have to laugh every time I go to do something in any panel. If the drawing are there it's like the first engineering draft and is completely wrong. Just once I would like to find a drawing that actually represented what was in front of me, pretty sure those are like Bigfoot though. A few poeple think they have seen them, a few more poeple think they exist, everyone else doesn't believe in them.
> 
> View attachment 163405
> View attachment 163406


You don’t want much, do you???

current prints on a 30 year old plant?😹


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## Quickservice (Apr 23, 2020)

Breakfasteatre said:


> that's an expensive panel with those lamacoid device labels
> 
> we build panels at our shop, we continuously make changes to the drawings and try to include the most up to date version in the panel, but once changes are made in the field, good luck
> 
> on top of that, *you have useless maintenance people going into panels screwing everything up even more*


Had one recently corner me and ask which colors he should spice together in order to convert an old T8 lay-in to dual-end LED.


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## mburtis (Sep 1, 2018)

CMP said:


> You don’t want much, do you???
> 
> current prints on a 30 year old plant?😹


This panel is only from like 2015. The real fun one is the other plant built in the 60s. Nobody has any idea where anything goes there.


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

mburtis said:


> I just have to laugh every time I go to do something in any panel. If the drawing are there it's like the first engineering draft and is completely wrong. Just once I would like to find a drawing that actually represented what was in front of me, pretty sure those are like Bigfoot though. A few poeple think they have seen them, a few more poeple think they exist, everyone else doesn't believe in them.
> 
> View attachment 163405
> View attachment 163406


This is why I am drawing my own prints for the 4 plants and 75 remote sites I am upgrading.
I am also replacing ALL wires so there is no hidden splices, devices or unknows.
All wires will have heat shrink tube markers matching prints.
All common type panels are to be built the same.( 1, 2, or 3 tank, pump or well sites get built with 3 site control and hardware.)
I also am providing the testing procedures on how to proof and yellow/line ALL prints.
I am doing the print corrections my self.

Then I retire and pass on a good system for the young ones, so they can't complain like you are. 😏


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## mburtis (Sep 1, 2018)

just the cowboy said:


> This is why I am drawing my own prints for the 4 plants and 75 remote sites I am upgrading.
> I am also replacing ALL wires so there is no hidden splices, devices or unknows.
> All wires will have heat shrink tube markers matching prints.
> All common type panels are to be built the same.( 1, 2, or 3 tank, pump or well sites get built with 3 site control and hardware.)
> ...


Quite an ambitious project on your part. Someday I'll have both plants figured out even if it's only on my head. At this point it's almost fun for me. It's like a game a where's Waldo every time I open a cabinet. Somedays I just wander around opening doors and following wires to figure out what's on the other end.


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

mburtis said:


> Quite an ambitious project on your part. Someday I'll have both plants figured out even if it's only on my head. At this point it's almost fun for me. It's like a game a where's Waldo every time I open a cabinet. Somedays I just wander around opening doors and following wires to figure out what's on the other end.


I've 12 million to play with, but by doing the prints myself and programming and screens with the teams we will end up with a better product. By using EC's as labor and not using engineers I hope to save 5 million. It is hard to spend this much of someone else's money and justify it.


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## mburtis (Sep 1, 2018)

I wish I had that kind of support. Around here. there a few poeple that don't think your ideas are worth considering unless P.E. follows your name. So I just fly under the radar and don't tell them anything.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

If the drawings were 100% any electrician could work on it. That's why they handed it off to you.


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

In school they teach print reading and everything is taught on prints. The real world isn’t on paper. You need to recognize components and functions. I’d you see a start and stop button chances are it’s a 3 wire control but do not assume that is always true. Learn to recognize standard control circuits and learn standard troubleshooting methods. The truth is a lot of wire numbers go MIA, are wrong or fall off or fade out.

Drawings and wire lists and cable tray/conduit schedules are for construction. Nobody wants to pay for drafting time. Construction electricians lose the red lines and once it starts up nobody pays to update. The drawings are jealously guarded. Often you can’t find anything because it’s indexes by project, not area. And everyone has their own ideas about categories.

In PSM plants there is a concern that the bad stuff might get out. So we need accurate drawings. Of course the one 60 year old draftsman still working doesn’t draft. They are the vault librarian. Once they move on it’s done for. So even if the drawings exist the index is so vastly out of date it’s useless.

But it’s even worse. So accurate documentation is a big deal in PSM.of course the wonderful comical engineers at AiChe developed solutions. There is bureaucracy even to see the drawings. Copies are not allowed unless they are controlled. Every change entails multiple people not responsible or involved signing off. So if you do manage to get copies you put them in your private collection. All drafts are guarded to keep them out of the process because if there is an audit or any sharing it will lock down the project in bureaucracy that will blow up both the schedule and costs. You do a half hearted document dump just to check off a box on a form at the end. Engineering HATES MOC because it just makes everything more work. So the solution is part of the problem. Plus that’s engineering. Maintenance wants to use it and ultimately they are the customer. Engineering just moves onto another project. The old drawings are a forgotten relic. And the fact of the matter is MOC is supposed to stop bad changes from being made but by again creating giant bureaucracies of people that have no involvement or responsibility it creates a conflict between doing your job (maintaining the plant) and doing a bunch of documentation and chasing permission slips that add ZERO value to the primary responsibility. So the result is that lots of changes go undocumented.

There is a solution but you’re not going to like it. The first and obvious problem is we need to have a good (not necessarily accurate) index. I use a program called recoll. It scans all my documents and indexes them just like a local version of Google search. It is AUTOMATIC. I can see filling out a simple one page form when you submit documents. If you e ever seen drawing indexes you’d understand why just grabbing title blocks for instance doesn’t work. We need to just index everything because for instance you may be looking for sat pump P-3 and it’s listed on project XYZ pump upgrade or project ABC VFD update, or project DEF process improvement. And all have “electrical drawing page x of y” titles. So if you index all this “useful” information how will you ever find pump P-3? This is where indexing all the text on a drawing for searches makes sense. So like Google you will get a huge list of possible drawings and you have to filter/check them but you can search for “pump P-3” and not get “nothing found”. So the index is not “accurate” (it’s software) but at least you have a better chance of finding what you want.

Second is accept the idea that none of the drawings are accurate and that you will need to check them by hand anyway. It’s better to capture things by making it easier to use and submit or nobody will even try to use it. It’s easy in many systems to submit a “review” of a drawing/document. So imagine if you open it up and you can see “user reviews” down at the bottom. So you submit a review “don’t use this. It shows a starter and the system is on VFD.” And the search system could use user review scores for ranking. This kind of thing actually already exists in many content management systems. So in this way we get a “review” process but it’s a real review, not just someone signing off on a form that has no involvement.

Not saying MOC is all bad. But it shouldn’t stifle normal operations. So when it dies those activities still go on but they go underground.

That’s when people actually care. I already made a case that engineering has no value in maintaining documentation even though of all the dumb ideas somehow it becomes their job as the ultimate generators of paperwork but they don’t have value in archiving it. Maintenance too mostly doesn’t care. So most maintenance departments have 5 to 10 mechanics per electrician. Drawings may help but most of the time mechanics don’t need them or use them where if they are accurate they are very useful for electricians. So again…most of the maintenance staff really has little value in drawings or drawing accuracy.

So when nobody but the electricians care, it’s an uphill battle. So my take is let’s just stop fighting and fix the things we can. But no perfect system will exist because trying to make it perfect paradoxically makes it more broken.


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

mburtis said:


> I wish I had that kind of support. Around here. there a few poeple that don't think your ideas are worth considering unless P.E. follows your name. So I just fly under the radar and don't tell them anything.


I fought very hard to get this, and it took a few contractors screwing up to prove it.


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## mburtis (Sep 1, 2018)

just the cowboy said:


> I fought very hard to get this, and it took a few contractors screwing up to prove it.


We don't even have a legitimate recognized SCADA department yet. Hopefully someday.


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## mburtis (Sep 1, 2018)

paulengr said:


> In school they teach print reading and everything is taught on prints. The real world isn’t on paper. You need to recognize components and functions. I’d you see a start and stop button chances are it’s a 3 wire control but do not assume that is always true. Learn to recognize standard control circuits and learn standard troubleshooting methods. The truth is a lot of wire numbers go MIA, are wrong or fall off or fade out.
> 
> Drawings and wire lists and cable tray/conduit schedules are for construction. Nobody wants to pay for drafting time. Construction electricians lose the red lines and once it starts up nobody pays to update. The drawings are jealously guarded. Often you can’t find anything because it’s indexes by project, not area. And everyone has their own ideas about categories.
> 
> ...


This sounds a whole lot like my days doing mechanical/manufacturing print drafting. We had autodesk vault that you checked drawings in and out of to edit so everything was controlled and you couldn't get multiple different copies going on. However this did squat for the machinist most of the time. A lot of the parts we made were made from old inaccurate terribly drafted drawings and the machinists had slowly evolved the design or program through the years to what the part actually needed to look like to work. Most of this information never made it into engineering due to lack of time or lack of priority or lack of communication. It was fun to loose days of work when going to check out a print to work on it only to find out it was checked out by someone in India who had no business even looking at it. Documentation is such a nightmare to deal with in large systems or organizations, I don't miss that type of work one bit.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

mburtis said:


> I have no idea the reasoning. It was on a 4-20ma speed feedback from a chemical pump. However this pump sat next to two other identical pumps and the feedbacks from them aren't isolated. Ive sorta adopted the policy that anything that leaves the building or is attached to something leaving the building (a pipe) will get an isolator to protect the plc. I can't think of a reason these would have needed it, it was configured for current in and current out, who knows. Some of the wiring isn't in the channels its suppose to be on the plc too. Who knows maybe they had some troubles and were burning out channels. We have since removed this pump and I'm reusing the wiring for some new chemical flowmeters.


I wonder how many electricians have no clue what you’re talking about when you say 4-20ma?


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

backstay said:


> I wonder how many electricians have no clue what you’re talking about when you say 4-20ma?


You're not that special....


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## mburtis (Sep 1, 2018)

backstay said:


> I wonder how many electricians have no clue what you’re talking about when you say 4-20ma?


My guess would be a fair number unless the have worked industrial or otherwise instrumentation. One thing that fascinates me about this field, you can spend an entire career doing large power wiring, or an entire career doing controls and automation, or an entire career pulling rope and putting in light switches. All 3 might have the exact same license but know basically nothing about what the others do.


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## glen1971 (Oct 10, 2012)

just the cowboy said:


> This is why I am drawing my own prints for the 4 plants and 75 remote sites I am upgrading.
> I am also replacing ALL wires so there is no hidden splices, devices or unknows.
> All wires will have heat shrink tube markers matching prints.
> All common type panels are to be built the same.( 1, 2, or 3 tank, pump or well sites get built with 3 site control and hardware.)
> ...


Sounds like a great project to be involved with.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

mburtis said:


> My guess would be a fair number unless the have worked industrial or otherwise instrumentation. One thing that fascinates me about this field, you can spend an entire career doing large power wiring, or an entire career doing controls and automation, or an entire career pulling rope and putting in light switches. All 3 might have the exact same license but know basically nothing about what the others do.


That was my thought also.
How many guys have never bent a stick of conduit, wired a service, or pulled romex through a building


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

A couple jobs back I had a boiler auto-fill circuit that was ran all over a room with a sort of complex relay logic interlocking system that was malfunctioning. It was field built and designed by a local contractor and I had to figure out why the boiler was overfilling. I started at the end of the process, the valve, and drew a ladder back to the beginning of the circuit, a classic reverse engineer job. I finally determined that the valve itself was the problem, a mechanical issue. The plant operator pulls a file so I can order the part, and behold a hand drawn ladder by the contractor was in there, just in the forward way you would draw one, not backwards like mine was. I was a little annoyed that I spent time making a drawing the hard way when one existed already, but it was good exercise I suppose.


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

backstay said:


> I wonder how many electricians have no clue what you’re talking about when you say 4-20ma?





joe-nwt said:


> You're not that special....


When I applied for the the position I started at here as instrument tech they asked a question about 4-20ma.
They asked if a tank was 3/4 full how many ma would you see?
They had just barely asked the question and I said 16, and the operation manager ( my current boss) was dumbfounded that I could come up with the answer that quick. Funny thing was I had just explained how 4-20ma works on here the day before to someone and used that EXACT example to explain it to them.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

just the cowboy said:


> When I applied for the the position I started at here as instrument tech they asked a question about 4-20ma.
> They asked if a tank was 3/4 full how many ma would you see?
> They had just barely asked the question and I said 16, and the operation manager ( my current boss) was dumbfounded that I could come up with the answer that quick. Funny thing was I had just explained how 4-20ma works on here the day before to someone and used that EXACT example to explain it to them.


im guessing they hired you on the spot ??


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

Almost Retired said:


> im guessing they hired you on the spot ??


Almost, next day you know how government is.
First interview had not even been in Colorado a week


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

i personally am not a whiz at process controls
but i do understand fractions, so i would be able to work it out in my head
but the correct answer is not immediately obvious


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## mburtis (Sep 1, 2018)

460 Delta said:


> A couple jobs back I had a boiler auto-fill circuit that was ran all over a room with a sort of complex relay logic interlocking system that was malfunctioning. It was field built and designed by a local contractor and I had to figure out why the boiler was overfilling. I started at the end of the process, the valve, and drew a ladder back to the beginning of the circuit, a classic reverse engineer job. I finally determined that the valve itself was the problem, a mechanical issue. The plant operator pulls a file so I can order the part, and behold a hand drawn ladder by the contractor was in there, just in the forward way you would draw one, not backwards like mine was. I was a little annoyed that I spent time making a drawing the hard way when one existed already, but it was good exercise I suppose.


I've been doing this with a lot of our stuff lately. Just following it and sketching it out. In my case I don't really view the finished drawing as the end goal. The knowledge of how the system works and where stuff is, is really the end product, once I have that I don't need the drawing.


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## mburtis (Sep 1, 2018)

just the cowboy said:


> Almost, next day you know how government is.
> First interview had not even been in Colorado a week


That's blazing speed. From the time I applied to my first day was over 3 months.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

mburtis said:


> I've been doing this with a lot of our stuff lately. Just following it and sketching it out. In my case I don't really view the finished drawing as the end goal. The knowledge of how the system works and where stuff is, is really the end product, once I have that I don't need the drawing.


when i worked at one mill and had been there several years i didnt need drawings either (just a PLC output list to look up motors etc.)
but now, i keep my own drawings on hand since i go to several different mills in my area
switching gears from 1 mill to another isnt as easy as it used to be


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

I had an interview for a paper mill. They asked me how many I/O in a PLC rack. Well my head was working all the different answers because of full racks, half racks, analog cards, when I stopped and said “why would I care? I’m only interested in the one that doesn’t work”.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

backstay said:


> I had an interview for a paper mill. They asked me how many I/O in a PLC rack. Well my head was working all the different answers because of full racks, half racks, analog cards, when I stopped and said “why would I care? I’m only interested in the one that doesn’t work”.


I LOVE IT !!!


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