# Yes....another one



## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

Two in one week. Just like the good old days. Cloud cover all day and high temp under 90 :thumbup:

House built in '72. Load center was changed in late 80's to a 150A 16 space. Dumb. Cable on the left was NM, cooked by the sun for many years. PVC below has the old *NM/cord cap* feeding a post light in the front yard.

Bad news is that the panel is on the left hand side of the riser. All of our meter/panel combos have POCO on the left.

8 AM. POCO disconnects










Removed IMC riser (too tall) and replaced with sched 80 PVC. I expected it to be worse. POCO actually puled out their triplex back 40' thru conduit in the back yard. I cut the steel riser off just below the PVC adapter and made one cut on the new riser to fit it into place.


9 AM









I pulled all the NM up the wall and dropped them down a couple feet to the right. Drilled/sawsalled a big hole the top plate. Drilled a second hole to squeeze a couple more inches out of the NM.

Again, I got lucky that there was* no bond beam* too deal with and there was about 5' working room on the gable end of the house.


11 AM










Took the cord cap off and tied the existing non compliant post light feed to a GFCI breaker and photo cell. Water bond is in the 1/2" PVC to a hose bib about 10' away.

1 PM










I even dropped the existing exposed coax down inside the block and popped it out next to the cable box, just because...... that's the kind of guy I am.


----------



## walkerj (May 13, 2007)

You are my hero:thumbup:


----------



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Who punched the hole in the wrong corner of the panel?:whistling2:


----------



## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

The only thing I would have done different is put at least one minnie on that post light and lateral pipe, and maybe a level:laughing:.


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Just curious.. what does a service change go for in Arizona.

Here they start at $1800.00 and end around $2900.00


----------



## vinster888 (May 3, 2009)

how do you get the meter in so fast. i get my inspections before noon usually then its a couple hours waiting for the poco. makes me jealous


----------



## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> Who punched the hole in the wrong corner of the panel?:whistling2:


I got a little ahead of myself :jester:





> Here they start at $1800.00 and end around $2900.00


About the same here. 

I think that this one was right at 2K. A year or so ago, it would have been 2500 minimum.

Not too much extra material on this one so I think profit will be decent.

I had a helper. We left the shop at 7:30 and pulled back in at 3:00. We even had time for a 1/2 hour lunch:thumbup:


----------



## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

Nice work dude. It's gotta feel good getting 2 of these back to back like that! :thumbsup:


----------



## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

i've noticed most of these houses are cinderblock...are the wires just floating in the wall?...was that how you were able to re-route them? nice work.


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

:sleep1:


----------



## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> The only thing I would have done different is put at least one minnie on that post light and lateral pipe, and maybe a level:laughing:.


It is level, but...no strap. It wouldn't come up tight to the wall because of some underground plumbing. 

1) I could have adapted to EMT and offset the conduit 

2) I could have forced it back and one holed it 

3) I could have slipped a piece of strut behind it.

4) I could have pulled out the torch.

5) I could have left it.

I did one hole the 1/2 protecting the water bond and they ARE level dammit!!

The riser isn't level though:jester:. 

I had some issues reying to get the emerging cables to align. Not much room ro work with. Riser location was pretty much fixed, block chases were fixed and the space to enter the panel is limited.



> how do you get the meter in so fast. i get my inspections before noon usually then its a couple hours waiting for the poco. makes me jealous


Believe me, it's not always that easy. They have completely forgotton about me on a few occaisions.

Work is slow here so the linemen are more availiable. The city has laid off a bunch of insoectors also, so getting THEM out is the hard part. 

Today, the city inspector showed up at 10:30 AM  I had the old unit pulled off but was nowhere near being done. He gave me a 5 day temp clearance and went on his way. THAT's how it should be done.


----------



## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> i've noticed most of these houses are cinderblock...are the wires just floating in the wall?...


Yeah. Just pull them up and drop them back down using jack chain.

If it was frame/stucco the cables would be stapled and plan B would go into effect.




> :sleep1:


I know it's not as complicated as pulling a couple of wires thru 40' of 1" conduit, thru an LB but, *wake up* man!


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

220/221 said:


> I know it's not as complicated as pulling a couple of wires thru 40' of 1" conduit, thru an LB but, *wake up* man!


You're just going to have to change it up once in a while. The same 40 circuit all in one service change and pole light bases is starting to wear a little thin. :jester:

Oh, and it's pulling two more wires in a 1" conduit that's *completely packed* with solid THHN wires, mind you.


----------



## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

What was "plan b"?


----------



## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

220/221 said:


> I know it's not as complicated as pulling a couple of wires thru 40' of 1" conduit, thru an LB but, *wake up* man!


 
:laughing::laughing::laughing: Yeah that thread was getting old for real. Everyone was acting like you can't pull a fishtape through cause it will tear up the insulation! There were only 20 wires in that pipe man! Gimme a break! :laughing:


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

steelersman said:


> :laughing::laughing::laughing: Yeah that thread was getting old for real. Everyone was acting like you can't pull a fishtape through cause it will tear up the insulation! There were only 20 wires in that pipe man! Gimme a break! :laughing:


Marc Shunk said not to do it so I'm not going to. That pretty much ends the debate for me right there. Sorry FerrousMetalsMan.


----------



## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

Peter D said:


> Marc Shunk said not to do it so I'm not going to. That pretty much ends the debate for me right there. Sorry FerrousMetalsMan.


So you have taken to worshipping false idols and gods eh?


----------



## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> Oh, and it's pulling two more wires in a 1" conduit that's *completely packed* with solid THHN wires, mind you.


 
:sleep1:





> What was "plan b"?


If it was framed I would have to take out some drywall, install a JB and surface conduit up and over (lovely) or offset the riser.


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

steelersman said:


> So you have taken to worshipping false idols and gods eh?


:laughing:

I just know when to trust someone that has more experience that I do. :thumbsup:

Nice try though! 
















Marc > :notworthy:


----------



## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

NolaTigaBait said:


> What was "plan b"?


Get the check by any means necessary:


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

220/221 said:


> :sleep1:


:lol:

Touche!


----------



## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

thats talent.


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

steelersman said:


> So you have taken to worshipping false idols and gods eh?


"False idols" is redundant. It's like saying "wet water."


----------



## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

Does any of the AHJ make any of you put 2-pole breakers on MWBC on service changes?


----------



## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

That service change looks pretty good.


----------



## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> The same 40 circuit all in one service change and pole light bases is starting to wear a little thin


The panel changes...I'll give you that, but the light poles?

This job was an awesome achievement. I relocated six poles AND the bases. It took balls just to attempt it.

http://s8.photobucket.com/albums/a8/JohnC1952/?action=view&current=MOV02016.flv


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Nevermind...answered my own question.


----------



## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

Peter D said:


> I just know when to trust someone that has more experience that I do.


 
Should be "than I do". I'm noticing alot of people here use "that" when it should be "than". I'm wondering if it's a regional thing like maybe a northern thing or a Mass. thing, because I notice Iwire does it also.


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

What does the poco provide for a service lateral? Aluminum?


----------



## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

Here are some pics for Peter.


I turned this....






























Into this.....

























> What does the poco provide for a service lateral? Aluminum?


Yeah, triplex....don't know what size. Neutral is smaller.


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

steelersman said:


> Should be "than I do". I'm noticing alot of people here use "that" when it should be "than". I'm wondering if it's a regional thing like maybe a northern thing or a Mass. thing, because I notice Iwire does it also.


Good catch, Aluminumman. In this case, I was typing too fast and didn't notice the error because I know the difference between "than" and "that."


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

220/221 said:


> Here are some pics for Peter.


:sleep1:





Just kidding! Much better. :thumbup:


----------



## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

Peter D said:


> What does the poco provide for a service lateral? Aluminum?


 Thats all they use here. If you want copper you'll have to pay extra.


----------



## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

nice view...diamond in the rough, huh?...is that your weekend house?


----------



## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

NolaTigaBait said:


> nice view...diamond in the rough, huh?...is that your weekend house?


 Thats his stabbing cabin.


----------



## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> Thats his stabbing cabin.












Two hours North and 20 to 40 degrees cooler than this hell hole.

No work tomorrow so I think I will head up for a long weekend.


----------



## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

220/221 said:


> Two hours North and 20 to 40 degrees cooler than this hell hole.
> 
> No work tomorrow so I think I will head up for a long weekend.


i resent this....New Orleans is the real hell hole.


----------



## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

220/221 said:


> Here are some pics for Peter.
> 
> 
> I turned this....
> ...


I kinda like the looks of the old "rustic" deck.:thumbup1:


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

220/221 said:


> Two hours North and 20 to 40 degrees cooler than this hell hole.


Only for half the year. 

Whose idea was it to build several large cities in the middle of a blistering desert anyway? :blink:


----------



## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

220/221 said:


>


 That smiley is getting his grove on.:laughing::laughing::laughing:


----------



## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> Whose idea was it to build several large cities in the middle of a blistering desert anyway?


Ask that in Jan/Feb :laughing:


This is how we cope with the heat here.


----------



## goose134 (Nov 12, 2007)

Are you hiding behind your plants to get a shot of your neighbor's pool?




Looks nice. I could use one of those about now.


----------



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

220/221 said:


> I got a little ahead of myself :jester:


I hate when I can't blame it on the helper. :laughing:


FWIW I would have blanked it off the same way.


----------



## augie47 (May 4, 2009)

How many folks would get inspector grief for bring the romex thru 1 fitting like shown ?


----------



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

augie47 said:


> How many folks would get inspector grief for bring the romex thru 1 fitting like shown ?



I think .....

_'Wasting my time', 

'Are you freaking serious?'

'Don't call me back till you get your crap together' _


........ would all be expected phrases. :laughing:


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Bob Badger said:


> I think .....
> 
> _'Wasting my time', _
> 
> ...


Bob, outside the Northeast, pretty much anything goes in residential. They treat interior wiring like we treat SE cable...


----------



## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> They treat interior wiring like we treat SE cable...


Except that we don't strap it, exposed, to the ouside of the building. :laughing:

I post the pics just to let people know how things are done in a different region. I understand that you may get tagged on this _technical foul_ but I'm still waiting for a good reason that it shouldn't be allowed.


----------



## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

220/221 said:


> Except that we don't strap it, exposed, to the ouside of the building. :laughing:
> 
> I post the pics just to let people know how things are done in a different region. I understand that you may get tagged on this _technical foul_ but I'm still waiting for a good reason that it shouldn't be allowed.


I'm not sure there is a practical way to do it otherwise. There aren't enough KOs in the back of the panel to begin with. And if you did punch or drill enough, you still usually don't have enough slack to attach them to the panel one at a time. I don't see a big problem with doing the way you do. I have done it on interior panels on a couple of occasions due to structural reasons.


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

People on this site even gripe about exposed romex :blink:.. some of us still live in the real world.

Thanks for posting the pics :thumbup:


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I still want to know why the panels out there are all on the outside of the home instead of the inside.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

nrp3 said:


> I still want to know why the panels out there are all on the outside of the home instead of the inside.


So thieves can shut the power off before they rob the place.

Also, it makes it handy for hooligans on Hollowe'en.


----------



## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

nrp3 said:


> I still want to know why the panels out there are all on the outside of the home instead of the inside.


why?....because that the way they wired it 50 years ago...


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I suppose because its dry out there, things survive well. I go to visit my parents in Ft Mohave and wonder why their panel isn't facing into garage instead of towards the neighbors. Then again, thats better looking than in a living room or somewhere else that doesn't look good. You don't have basements like we do.


----------



## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

I think I read on the NACHI forum one time that, in the case of Florida, many of those homes started out as seasonal homes. Cottages, if you like. As such, there wasn't much wall space indoors that homeowners were willing to give up for mounting the electrical panel. That was explained to be the reason why most of them were mounted on the outside of the home. It sorta became the traditional way to wire the smaller Florida home after that, even if there was wall space available inside. 

I don't know much about the history of communities in AZ, but I might guess the reasoning was much the same there too. An 'all in one' service sure is fast, and from the cost of those meter bases there, it saves money. I think 220/221 said that these 200 amp meter cans with a 40 space panel only cost about $125 bucks at the hardware store.


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> I don't know much about the history of communities in AZ, but I might guess the reasoning was much the same there too. An 'all in one' service sure is fast, and from the cost of those meter bases there, it saves money. I think 220/221 said that these 200 amp meter cans with a 40 space panel only cost about $125 bucks at the hardware store.


Me being the gigantic nerd that I am, I've gone on HD's "contractor services" website in the past and typed in zip codes for various southwestern cities to check out the selection of all-in-one services available.


----------



## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

I see some "all in one" main lug panels, but never main breaker.


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

If not main breaker, then where is the main?

$125 is around what I usually pay for a regular 40 space main breaker panel. I usually get my meter cans for free from the utility though.


----------



## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

nrp3 said:


> If not main breaker, then where is the main?
> 
> $125 is around what I usually pay for a regular 40 space main breaker panel. I usually get my meter cans for free from the utility though.


They don't have a bolt-on main...just use a regular stab-on main on a main lug panel


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

NolaTigaBait said:


> They don't have a bolt-on main...just use a regular stab-on main on a main lug panel


Where do you get 200a stab-ons?

And hopefully, you use a listed method to secure them.


----------



## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

The whole point of that panel in NOT to have to use a 200 breaker...i'd use a 125 or a 100 and bring all of my bigger loads into that panel, and use the sub panel as lighting and general use...secure them?...i'm not back-feeding the breaker, the buss is always hot, so i don't have to use a hold down kit....right?


----------



## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

NolaTigaBait said:


> The whole point of that panel in NOT to have to use a 200 breaker...i'd use a 125 or a 100 and bring all of my bigger loads into that panel, and use the sub panel as lighting and general use...secure them?...i'm not back-feeding the breaker, the buss is always hot, so i don't have to use a hold down kit....right?


Dude, how the hell do you think the buss would always be hot? The main breaker kills the buss.


----------



## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

steelersman said:


> Dude, how the hell do you think the buss would always be hot? The main breaker kills the buss.


dude...no....picture this its an all in one meter combo with 12 spaces...the lugs from the load side of the meter are bolted on to the main buss....making the whole panel HOT all the time...then you bring your heavy loads i.e. a/c, range, water heater, etc...(remember no more than 6 disconnects)...then i would get either a 100 or 125 and feed the sub-panel inside...


----------



## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

I'll try to find one and post a picture.


----------



## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

NolaTigaBait said:


> dude...no....picture this its an all in one meter combo with 12 spaces...the lugs from the load side of the meter are bolted on to the main buss....making the whole panel HOT all the time...then you bring your heavy loads i.e. a/c, range, water heater, etc...(remember no more than 6 disconnects)...then i would get either a 100 or 125 and feed the sub-panel inside...


Ok I get what you're saying although I've never seen that, but I'm talking about what 220/221 is installing from the pics.


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

steelersman said:


> Ok I get what you're saying although I've never seen that, but I'm talking about what 220/221 is installing from the pics.



Yeah, those ones he installs always have a main.


----------



## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> I still want to know why the panels out there are all on the outside of the home instead of the inside


Simple.

1) Installation is much quicker/easier. One piece of equipment to install in one location.

2) It doesn't take up valuable real estate inside.

Mostly #1





If people are worried about vandals they just put a lock on the cover.


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

220/221 said:


> Simple.
> 
> 1) Installation is much quicker/easier. One piece of equipment to install in one location.
> 
> ...


I noticed that in some of the larger tract homes I've checked out in Socal they usually have one large 400 amp all-in-one and then one of more subpanels fed with SER cable inside. I don't suppose you do it that way in Feenicks too?


----------



## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Peter D said:


> I noticed that in some of the larger tract homes I've checked out in Socal they usually have one large 400 amp all-in-one and then one of more subpanels fed with SER cable inside. I don't suppose you do it that way in Feenicks too?


That's actually not a bad idea for any of us, particularly if you want the panels in different places in the home rather than right on the back side of the meter can like we do in the northeast.


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> That's actually not a bad idea for any of us, particularly if you want the panels in different places in the home rather than right on the back side of the meter can like we do in the northeast.


Yes, that's definitely a common practice around here for larger homes. I was just curious about regional practice, is all. Though truth be told I've never done the cost-benefit analysis of the point at which it makes more sense to add a subpanel vs. multiple homeruns.


----------



## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

NolaTigaBait said:


> dude...no....picture this its an all in one meter combo with 12 spaces...the lugs from the load side of the meter are bolted on to the main buss....making the whole panel HOT all the time...then you bring your heavy loads i.e. a/c, range, water heater, etc...(remember no more than 6 disconnects)...then i would get either a 100 or 125 and feed the sub-panel inside...


I hate those pieces of crap. All the ones I see are over 20 years old, and they are like the plague all over Northern Alabama. The POCO installed them years ago, and just re-fed the old 3-wire 60 A fuse box from them. However, I have made a good bit of money replacing them. Last summer I did 25. This summer, not many people can afford to have them replaced, unless they burn out and insurance covers it.


----------



## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

Peter D said:


> I noticed that in some of the larger tract homes I've checked out in Socal they usually have one large 400 amp all-in-one and then one of more subpanels fed with SER cable inside. I don't suppose you do it that way in Feenicks too?


In North Georgia a few years ago duplex offices were all the rage and were going up everywhere. I installed many 400 A meter/mains with two 200 A main breakers built in.


----------



## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> I noticed that in some of the larger tract homes I've checked out in Socal they usually have one large 400 amp all-in-one and then one of more subpanels fed with SER cable inside. I don't suppose you do it that way in Feenicks too?


On houses that require 400 amps we use a meter combo unit that has one 200A main with a 40 space bus and a 200A main that will feed a second panel.

Most of the time we will just mount the second 40 space panel right next to the service.

If it makes sense, like in a really big house with the kitchen far away from the service, we will locate the second panel somewhere in the interior or on the other side of the house and feed it with BAR cable (big assed romex). 

I think I have only done that once and it was a struggle to pull the 4/0, 100' thru the trusses to the other side of the house. Also, with that big of a cable coming in the back of the panel, the termination was a pain.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

220/221 said:


> On houses that require 400 amps we use a meter combo unit that has one 200A main with a 40 space bus and a 200A main that will feed a second panel.
> 
> Most of the time we will just mount the second 40 space panel right next to the service.
> 
> ...


Electrical work isn't for pu$$ies.:whistling2:


----------



## 76nemo (Aug 13, 2008)

220/221 said:


> Here are some pics for Peter.
> 
> 
> I turned this....
> ...


 

Wow, that's pretty nice. Where is that? Is there cold ones in the fridge?


----------



## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

Prescott AZ, about 2 hours North of Phoenix. Elevation at the cabin is about 6800' and there is ALWAYS a few cold ones in the fridge. :thumbup:

If I am not there, the key is on top of the panel....outside of course.

It's mostly a summer place but we do get a couple of decent snows a year...maybe a foot max....enough to get the quads high centered and stuck.





















Video link:

http://s8.photobucket.com/albums/a8/JohnC1952/?action=view&current=MVI_0033.flv




Watching the *summer* storms roll across is the best!


Video link:

http://s8.photobucket.com/albums/a8/JohnC1952/?action=view&current=MOV01786.flv


----------

