# Hey! A commercial panel :)



## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

Finally a change of pace. 

Church kitchen remodel. Another contractor recently upgraded the service to 600 amp. He installed a 400 amp panel behind the main panel and left a couple of spare 200 amp breakers for future use.

The GC got ahead of himself and got us in before any plans were approved by the city. We said "bad idea" but he said "do it". We pulled in a few new 20 amp circuits and one new 50A oven circuit from the existing 400 amp panel. Our "field calculations" said it would work :laughing:

The city of course wants real engineering (duh) and the engineer wants a new 200 amp panel (change order :thumbup All the underground feeding the kitchen area land under the old 400 amp panel which sits directly behind the 800. Engineer first wants the new 200 in the kitchen area, about 30' away in the wrong directiopn. Hoops are jumped thru and engineer finally says "draw it the way you want and I will stamp it".

All circuits will now land in the new panel via the 12x12 jb and a 3 day installation became a one (short) day installation. Except for the panel, all materials were pulled out of stock :thumbup: It was a good day.










PS. I have 29" width clearance on the new panel. The obstruction is a only wimpy little shelf so I so I left it so I can see how picky the inspector is going to be.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

Looks good.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

Nice work, 220. Looks good.

I like C/H panels, as well as their switchgear. Well-made and solid. Sort of a bear to add breakers to if they're hot and you don't have a 5/16" magnetic nutdriver though. 

Rob


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Finally! Something different for a change!! :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> like C/H panels, as well as their switchgear. Well-made and solid


The 200 amp breaker lugs were only about 3/4" deep and used 1/4" hex wrench. I didn't like that.

The new "one screw" door style seems promising but I not yet sure. I messed with it for a while trying to get it closed.


The studs for the neutral and ground buses were about 1/4" too close to the edge of the can and the socket extension hit the can and wouldn't go in straight. A minor issue but still, you think they would install one before they started production.:jester:


The stand off mounts for the 200 amp breakers look like about #6 gauge and I have to run 4/0 ?



> Finally! Something different for a change!!


I will try to work in a couple of snap in bushings for you tomorrow :thumbsup:


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

I was gonna say that nipple appeared to be undersized but then I opened up the book, did a Kcmil calculation with the #6 EGC, and you're good to go. Funny because if you use Annex C there's no way (4) 3/0 coppers would be allowed using a 2" nipple. 

Looks nice.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> I was gonna say that nipple appeared to be undersized but then I opened up the book, did a Kcmil calculation with the #6 EGC, and you're good to go. Funny because if you use Annex C there's no way (4) 3/0 coppers would be allowed using a 2" nipple.
> 
> Looks nice.


 
Annex C (5) 3/0 thhn or thwn in 2"


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## goose134 (Nov 12, 2007)

Thank goodnes! Nice to have a little variety. I'm not sold on CH's new door setup. You have to work them like the Fonz. Whack the right corner and ....aaaaaaaayyyy.

Not mechanically important but my one criticism would be the connectors on the JB. Other than that, aces. :thumbup:


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

220/221 said:


> The 200 amp breaker lugs were only about 3/4" deep and used 1/4" hex wrench. I didn't like that.
> 
> The new "one screw" door style seems promising but I not yet sure. I messed with it for a while trying to get it closed.
> 
> ...


 
He's talking about the setscrews not turned the same way, I think.
Second, there's alot of copper showing on that breaker. IMO:whistling2:


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> I was gonna say that nipple appeared to be undersized but then I opened up the book


2.5" nipple. I pulled it from my _truck stock_ along with the two plastic bushings :thumbup:




> Not mechanically important but my one criticism would be the connectors on the JB.


I did it that way to keep myself from getting too anal retentive. I intended to land them straight but but when they locked tight in that configuration I just let it go :laughing:



> Second, there's alot of copper showing on that breaker. IMO:whistling2:


I agree but


> The 200 amp breaker lugs were only about 3/4" deep


I'm not kidding. The lugs were *very* shallow. I _could have_ cut it and restripped it but my motto is "never go back". And once the first one had copper showing I decided to make a matching set.:jester:

Also, the EE specified *#4 ground*. I didn't bother to call him on it because it was such a short piece that came off the scrap pile but, did something change in 08???


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Annex C (5) 3/0 thhn or thwn in 2"


I must not have had my coffee yet when I wrote that!


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

220/221 said:


> Also, the EE specified *#4 ground*. I didn't bother to call him on it because it was such a short piece that came off the scrap pile but, did something change in 08???


200 amp circuit breaker right?

#6 copper minimum, Table 250.122


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> I must not have had my coffee yet when I wrote that!


 
I do the same thing, I gotta remind myself to wake up before typing. I have MANY times, typed something, only to regret it, or think of something to add to it one hour later.


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## seo (Oct 28, 2008)

Magnettica said:


> I was gonna say that nipple appeared to be undersized but then I opened up the book, did a Kcmil calculation with the #6 EGC, and you're good to go. Funny because if you use Annex C there's no way (4) 3/0 coppers would be allowed using a 2" nipple.
> 
> Looks nice.


Why would you use Annex C for nipple fill? Chapter 9 tables note (1) Annex C is for number of conductors in trade sizes of conduit or tubing and if over 2 conductors 40% conduit fill is max. Use note # (4) for nipples and you can fill nipple up to 60% with no adjustment factors.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

220/221 said:


> Also, the EE specified *#4 ground*. I didn't bother to call him on it because it was such a short piece that came off the scrap pile but, did something change in 08???


No, just an engineer using the wrong table.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

seo said:


> Why would you use Annex C for nipple fill? Chapter 9 tables note (1) Annex C is for number of conductors in trade sizes of conduit or tubing and if over 2 conductors 40% conduit fill is max. Use note # (4) for nipples and you can fill nipple up to 60% with no adjustment factors.



Thanks. :thumbsup:


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## seo (Oct 28, 2008)

You are welcome.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

It's "you're" welcome.


Sincerely, Peter :laughing:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

220/221 said:


> It's "you're" welcome.
> 
> 
> Sincerely, Peter :laughing:


:lol:


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## lynx82 (Sep 19, 2009)

looks good, those crooked connectors do take away from it IMO. That is what people will see and make assumptions based on what is right in front of them. I would take the one minute to line them up, but to each his own.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

I will line them up for you when I go back :laughing:

NO ONE except an electrician would even notice. About 30 years ago a guy on a jobsite asked me why we made box offsets. I thought he made a good point and I stopped doing it. Now, in most cases, my EMT goes straight into 4S boxes.


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## lynx82 (Sep 19, 2009)

220/221 said:


> I will line them up for you when I go back :laughing:
> 
> NO ONE except an electrician would even notice. About 30 years ago a guy on a jobsite asked me why we made box offsets. I thought he made a good point and I stopped doing it. Now, in most cases, my EMT goes straight into 4S boxes.


:no:


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## Mr. Sparkle (Jan 27, 2009)

220/221 said:


> I will line them up for you when I go back :laughing:
> 
> NO ONE except an electrician would even notice. About 30 years ago a guy on a jobsite asked me why we made box offsets. I thought he made a good point and I stopped doing it. Now, in most cases, my EMT goes straight into 4S boxes.


I'm gonna catch hell from some die hard commercial guys for this one......but I just use cowboys most of the time to avoid offsets if I can. (and I actually don't mind bending smaller pipe, just hate bending offsets for boxes....)

220, I gotta tell ya, it's nice work and all but I really do miss the 456,652 pieces of NM coming through the 4" hole in the block.


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## sparks134 (Jan 30, 2009)

*what!! no black tape on the A phase!!*


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## mikeg_05 (Jan 1, 2009)

sparks134 said:


>


Are you serious??


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

mikeg_05 said:


> Are you serious??


I think he's kidding, but you never know. :blink:


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

They are *all* taped black. 

I only had red, blue and white wire available :jester:


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## running dummy (Mar 19, 2009)

220/221 said:


> I will line them up for you when I go back :laughing:
> 
> NO ONE except an electrician would even notice. About 30 years ago a guy on a jobsite asked me why we made box offsets. I thought he made a good point and I stopped doing it. Now, in most cases, my EMT goes straight into 4S boxes.


 

geez I only did that in track housing in the basement and I even felt bad about that!!! Hope you aren't doing that with exposed work...


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## mikeg_05 (Jan 1, 2009)

220/221 said:


> They are *all* taped black.
> 
> I only had red, blue and white wire available :jester:


There must be no budget on that job:jester:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

220/221 said:


> I will line them up for you when I go back :laughing:
> 
> NO ONE except an electrician would even notice. About 30 years ago a guy on a jobsite asked me why we made box offsets. I thought he made a good point and I stopped doing it. Now, in most cases, my EMT goes straight into 4S boxes.


I was looking thru older threads about work trucks and saw a picture of yours, I thought you were a god among men.



Now I read this and see you are merely a mortal, a hacky mortal :thumbup:


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## sparks134 (Jan 30, 2009)

sparks134 said:


>


what happens if your terminating and u find the phaseing tape fell off one of the wires. it would be easier to figure out which phase it is!


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

sparks134 said:


> what happens if your terminating and u find the phaseing tape fell off one of the wires. it would be easier to figure out which phase it is!


That's why I like to load up the conductor with a ton of tape. I like to leave no doubt that this is the red, that ones the blue, and this one here is the neutral. Tape away, a roll of tape or three should be in the budget.


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## mikeg_05 (Jan 1, 2009)

sparks134 said:


> what happens if your terminating and u find the phaseing tape fell off one of the wires. it would be easier to figure out which phase it is!


Make sure it doesn't happen.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> Hope you aren't doing that with exposed work...


The janitor is the only one who will ever see it 

OK....I'll FIX it, Ill FIX it, I'll FIX it........maybe.

If you are talking about box offsets, no one but electricians notice them.




> what happens if your terminating and u find the phaseing tape fell off one of the wires. it would be easier to figure out which phase it is!


I guess he wasn't kidding. Tape black wire with black tape? :laughing: You're killin' me. And....how does tape "fall off" ?


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## sparks134 (Jan 30, 2009)

don't let the smoke out!


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## Archania (Mar 16, 2009)

That ain't enough tape! Hell in my area, they make you wrap the damn wire pretty much the whole length that is exposed in the box. Sucks, but what can you do....


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

I went back and terminated _most_ of the branch circuits today (shunt trip range breaker didn't arrive) and* I fixed the set screw connectors* for you clowns.

There are still two violations but I'm not going to lose sleep over the white taped #6 and I will tear out the shelving on the right side if necessary (29")


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## rdr (Oct 25, 2009)

goose134 said:


> Thank goodnes! Nice to have a little variety. I'm not sold on CH's new door setup. You have to work them like the Fonz. Whack the right corner and ....aaaaaaaayyyy.
> 
> Not mechanically important but my one criticism would be the connectors on the JB. Other than that, aces. :thumbup:


Eek....I'm not too sold on CH to begin with. :wallbash:

Glad he fixed the connectors though. I thought it was gonna be a long sleepless night for me.


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## Grimlock (Aug 4, 2009)

goose134 said:


> Thank goodnes! Nice to have a little variety. I'm not sold on CH's new door setup. You have to work them like the Fonz. Whack the right corner and ....aaaaaaaayyyy.
> 
> Not mechanically important but my one criticism would be the connectors on the JB. Other than that, aces. :thumbup:


I was opening one of those new panel covers once on a panel that another electrician had made up. One of his #12 wires had worked its way to the inner surface of the panel door by that clip you pull out next to the hinge. Somehow it pinched as I opened the cover and it shorted. There where about 30 people in that same area doing clean up and final prep for opening day, very loud commotion (It was a new upscale hotel). It popped so loud that everyone either froze or dove on the ground. For the next few seconds you could hear a pin drop it was so quiet, all eyes were locked on me!


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