# refrigerator / gfci protection



## EvilBunny (Feb 2, 2009)

Does a refrigerator need to be on it's own circuit in the kitchen of a dwelling unit?

Also, I know the kitchen counter outlets need to be gfci, but do each and every one of them have to have the gfci protection, or does one do the trick?

I guess the question is... do the sensors detect everything else on the circuit? I do know that when the gfci outlet trips, it does kill all the other kitchen outlets as well. 

(There are no gfci breakers in the circuit panel either).

Also... I understand there are supposed to be no fewer than 2 small appliance circuits for the kitchen. Can one of these circuits also contain the kitchen lights?


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

EvilBunny said:


> Does a refrigerator need to be on it's own circuit in the kitchen of a dwelling unit?


No. It can be on one of the (at least 2) small appliance circuits



> Also, I know the kitchen counter outlets need to be gfci, but do each and every one of them have to have the gfci protection, or does one do the trick?


 They all must have GFCI protection, but they do not each have to have an actual GFCI receptacle. You can install 2, and wire the rest on the load side. For that matter, you can use 2 GFCI circuit breakers.



> I guess the question is... do the sensors detect everything else on the circuit? I do know that when the gfci outlet trips, it does kill all the other kitchen outlets as well.


 Depends. It will detect anything wired on the load side.





> Also... I understand there are supposed to be no fewer than 2 small appliance circuits for the kitchen. Can one of these circuits also contain the kitchen lights?


No. 210.52(B)(1) and (2)


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## EvilBunny (Feb 2, 2009)

Thanks for your fast reply.

What do you mean by the "load side" ?


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

EvilBunny said:


> Thanks for your fast reply.
> 
> What do you mean by the "load side" ?



Your electrician will know. :thumbsup:


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## electro916 (Jan 16, 2009)

I would still recommend the Refer. on its own circuit. When I wire a kitchen I provide 5 circuits. not including range, dishwasher or garbage disposal.

1-small app.
2-small app.
3-refer.
4-micro.
5-lighting.


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## EvilBunny (Feb 2, 2009)

Anybody besides Peter D want to tell me what is meant by the "load side" ?

Do you mean on the side where the other outlets are? 

If you have: breaker --> outlet 1 ---> outlet 2 ----> outlet 3

Outlet 2 and 3 would be considered the load side, because the only thing on the other side of outlet 1 is the circuit breaker, correct? (the outlets on the "downstream" of the first one, I guess you could say)

I'm a student and we just started code class. I'm not trying to wire anything up, don't worry. I'm just trying to answer a question for a friend of mine who bought a house. There are some obvious code violations and I'm trying to help him out. 

Not familiar with all of the terminology. Thanks for the help everyone.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

EvilBunny said:


> Anybody besides Peter D want to tell me what is meant by the "load side" ?


I thought you were a DIYer. My apologies.


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

On a GFCI receptacle, there are 2 sets of terminals. Line and Load.

Line is where it incoming branch circuit conductors go.

The GFCI provides protection to itself, as well as any other outlets that are wired to the Load terminals.

Often you will have several standard duplex receptacles wired from the load side of a GFCI.


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## EvilBunny (Feb 2, 2009)

Ahhh I see. I suppose it helps to have actually seen the back side of a gfci outlet! :blink:

So... If you test the gfci receptacle and it kills the power to itself and the two next to it, is it safe to assume that the other two that went out are wired on the load side?

Or is a continuity check the only way to tell? :huh:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

EvilBunny said:


> Ahhh I see. I suppose it helps to have actually seen the back side of a gfci outlet! :blink:
> 
> So... If you test the gfci receptacle and it kills the power to itself and the two next to it, is it safe to assume that the other two that went out are wired on the load side?
> 
> Or is a continuity check the only way to tell? :huh:


No offense, but an electrican would know the answer to that.


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

EvilBunny said:


> Ahhh I see. I suppose it helps to have actually seen the back side of a gfci outlet! :blink:


 Yes



> So... If you test the gfci receptacle and it kills the power to itself and the two next to it, is it safe to assume that the other two that went out are wired on the load side?


 It's almost certain. Personally, I then use my plug-in tester to trip the other receptacles as well to be sure.

Actually I dislike the phrase "safe to assume"



> Or is a continuity check the only way to tell? :huh:


 I would do it that way if there was no power.


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## EvilBunny (Feb 2, 2009)

No offense taken Sparky!

Like I said, I'm a student. I'm just learning. We all started somewhere. 

Thanks for all of the helpful info JohnJ. It is much appreciated.


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

It would not hurt to have someone with some experience in residential come check your work, Electrical students/apprentices can make the most dangerous mistakes from time to time, I would say this comes from thinking you know what you doing......I am just say'n ...ahole rabbit to evilbunny, ya hear me bro.


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

EvilBunny said:


> I'm a student and we just started code class. I'm not trying to wire anything up, don't worry. I'm just trying to answer a question for a friend of mine who bought a house. There are some obvious code violations and I'm trying to help him out.
> 
> Not familiar with all of the terminology. Thanks for the help everyone.



With respect.
Your not ready to help your friend yet.Get a little better understanding of the basics,by then you will have met someone who would help you, help your friend.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

Peter D said:


> Your electrician will know. :thumbsup:


 
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:


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## EvilBunny (Feb 2, 2009)

> Your not ready to help your friend yet


I helped him out just fine.

Thanks for your concern.


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

what were the problems?


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## CNC (Dec 20, 2008)

EvilBunny said:


> Anybody besides Peter D want to tell me what is meant by the "load side" ?
> 
> Do you mean on the side where the other outlets are?
> 
> ...



He did state he was trying to help a friend out, and he wasnt doing any of the wiring, i dont see the harm in this? I think he is perfectly qualified to "help" his friend, in relaying information on how it should be done, thats all i take he is doing. Dont let your friend do the work now, call in a qualified electrician.

I always do

20a - 
Refridgerator 
micro
2 plug circuits, 2 GFI- and i load the rest (to keep it clean) 
disposal 
dishwasher

I will use a multiwire circuit with disposal and dishwasher, they are usually in the same box under sink) and will usually use one for the 2 plug circuits.


Hood and stove get a 15 amp (if its just an ignitor) 
lights on a 15 amp. 

ovens are wired acording to load.

then additional circuits if there are wine coolers, warm draws, instant hots etc.

pretty cut and dry.


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## EvilBunny (Feb 2, 2009)

Yeah, so my friend bought a house a year ago and they've been having problems with other things (non-electrical). I'm in school for electrical and automation technology and I mentioned that I just started my code class, so he asked me some questions about the wiring.

The guy that wired his house had the washing machine receptacle on the same circuit as the entire downstairs finished basement.

He also had the fridge and all but one of the kitchen receptacles wired on the same circuit as the kitchen lights.

The one outlet that wasn't on the above circuit wasn't gfci protected and it was located in the kitchen above the counter.

He also had a four foot peninsula counter with no receptacles.

I was letting him know what I thought to be code violations because he's filing a civil suit.

I never touched a wire at all. I appreciate those of you that helped me out with this. 

I understand and respect that you want people to be safe, but some of the rude tones are unnecessary. 

I've been lurking around this forum for quite a while and I know that most of you are extremely intelligent and experienced... That's why I came here with my questions.

Thanks again to those of you that were helpful. It is much appreciated.


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

> but some of the rude tones are unnecessary.


 
haha, get used to it around here...you will learn ALOT from these guys, but some just can't help themselves but to be rude


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## sparkky052873 (Feb 25, 2009)

i have a ? does anyone know if your using a peice of emt say ,fand you run your egc in it when bonding both ends of the pipe are you alowed to use a steel fitting to bond the pane since its a grouding type fitting or do you have to use a bonding busing?


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