# TO NY State residential electricians, clarification on AFCI, etc.



## McClary’s Electrical

That's pretty much the same way it's handled here


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## MDShunk

It's rare to see stuff like that spelled out so clearly. 

"Assistant Director for Code Interpretation"? That's someone's job? Hmmm. :laughing:


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## Speedy Petey

The GFI thing got me. They are flat out saying if you replace a receptacle in an old bathroom you do NOT have to provide GFI protection. ONLY for new installations. 
I had this wrong. Although I must say, to not provide GFI would be pretty careless IMO.


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## leland

Speedy Petey said:


> The GFI thing got me. They are flat out saying if you replace a receptacle in an old bathroom you do NOT have to provide GFI protection. ONLY for new installations.
> I had this wrong. Although I must say, to not provide GFI would be pretty careless IMO.



But some lawyer could get you out of a jam with that.

But you (I) would never sleep the same if not corrected.


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## bruce6670

Are there times when you guys use AFCI breakers even though you don't legally have to? Like in an old house that may have some old wiring that you just can see.


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## desar

*desar*

Hope I'm not getting in to late. I wouldn't install afci in that situation. In the 2011 under articl 210.12 afci that any exstension from an existing circuit is required to have afci protection installed either at the point of connection to the existing circuit or at the origin of the existing circuit.

:blink: No one makes a afci receptacle yet ,that I'm awair of.


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## HARRY304E

desar said:


> Hope I'm not getting in to late. I wouldn't install afci in that situation. In the 2011 under articl 210.12 afci that any exstension from an existing circuit is required to have afci protection installed either at the point of connection to the existing circuit or at the origin of the existing circuit.
> 
> :blink: No one makes a afci receptacle yet ,that I'm awair of.


No they don't make one, that meens you have to install an AFCI breaker unless there is a mass code amendment that says otherwise..


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## desar

*desar*

Mass didn't make an amendment to this article.I was surprised because In the mass amendments rule #3 say an existing installation doesn't have to be brought up to unless major safety violation.This is the reason you didn't have to install afci breakers on a service change.:thumbsup:


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## ColoradoMaster3768

leland said:


> But some lawyer could get you out of a jam with that.
> 
> But you (I) would never sleep the same if not corrected.


I agree whole heartedly with leland. To not correct it wouild be downright irresponsible. :thumbsup:


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## Eddies Electric

In Oklahoma we had an Inspector make us put AFCI's in every house we were doing because we were changing the service from OH to UG. After about 6 months of constant trouble calls AEP got it fixed so we could remove them... It was ridiculous....


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## backstay

bruce6670 said:


> Are there times when you guys use AFCI breakers even though you don't legally have to? Like in an old house that may have some old wiring that you just can see.


I have put them in because an insurance company required it. And I had a house get hit by lighting that the insurance wouldn't replace all the wiring. Here is one of the boxes after the hit. So I installed arcfault breakers feeding the circuits where there was damage. This box had it's wall plate blown off and you can see the back of the box is gone too.


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## chicken steve

bruce6670 said:


> Are there times when you guys use AFCI breakers even though you don't legally have to? Like in an old house that may have some old wiring that you just can see.


yes

and the insurance company sanctioned it

~S~


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## tombs

Speedy Petey said:


> The GFI thing got me. They are flat out saying if you replace a receptacle in an old bathroom you do NOT have to provide GFI protection. ONLY for new installations.
> I had this wrong. Although I must say, to not provide GFI would be pretty careless IMO.


Is this true in Ca. as well?


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## B4T

tombs said:


> Is this true in Ca. as well?


Nothing else on this planet follows CA code.. I found hazardous chemical stickers on fixtures manufactured inCA..

The stickers had to do with the conductors used in the manufacture of the fixture.. :blink::blink:


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## Sparkyand1

HARRY304E said:


> No they don't make one, that meens you have to install an AFCI breaker unless there is a mass code amendment that says otherwise..


 

I believe the route we're going, is if it's not GFI protected it will be AFCI protected.


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## Going_Commando

In NH you don't have to unless the panel is located in an area that needs arc-fault protection. So, if you have a panel in a living room or what have you, you have to update the panel with AFCIs. If it is located in a basement or garage, you are all set.


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## Speedy Petey

Going_Commando said:


> In NH you don't have to unless the panel is located in an area that needs arc-fault protection. So, if you have a panel in a living room or what have you, you have to update the panel with AFCIs. If it is located in a basement or garage, you are all set.


I'm sorry. This makes absolutely NO sense whatsoever. 
What in the world does panel location have to do with AFCI requirements.


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## JudyN

HARRY304E said:


> No they don't make one, that meens you have to install an AFCI breaker unless there is a mass code amendment that says otherwise..


They do make the AFCI receptacle


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## JudyN

*Gfi / afci*

Has anyone tried putting a gfi on an afci breaker? Will it cause excessive tripping on either end? I cannot find anything in the code that says I cannot do this, but then I'm not sure if it will work correctly?


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## chicken steve

gfci' and afci's mix fine ....

and_ who_ makes this afci receptacle Judy?

~CS~


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## Speedy Petey

JudyN said:


> They do make the AFCI receptacle


Who makes that? Looks Chinese. 
The domain where the pic is looks sketchy at best.



Either way, it does not meet the requirements of the code, unless you can take advantage of Exception No. 1 to 210.12(A), which is highly unlikely in an existing situation.


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## JudyN

http://true-safe.com/prod-afci - outlet.html
I do not know the availability or the cost nor have I used one yet I know they have a plug in tester not unlike the gfi plug in tester for it.


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## JudyN

Speedy Petey said:


> Who makes that? Looks Chinese.
> The domain where the pic is looks sketchy at best.
> 
> 
> 
> Either way, it does not meet the requirements of the code, unless you can take advantage of Exception No. 1 to 210.12(A), which is highly unlikely in an existing situation.



http://true-safe.com/prod-afci - outlet.html
The company address is in Florida and yes you would have to protect the whole circuit not just receptacles, just as an AFCI breaker would. I do not know the cost or the availability.


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## chicken steve

> *Purchasing Our Products*
> 
> *Please check back soon for a list of our distribution and sales locations for True-Safe products.*






It's mighty new to the market then Judy....hasn't even had a chance to be picked apart, kudo's if this product is for real here

~CS~


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## chicken steve

*[spoiler alert]*



*Our Technology*

True-Safe Technologies, Inc has developed a revolutionary AFCI technology that will bring safety, security and peace of mind to residential and commercial property owners. To appreciate, one has to understand what the technology is protecting against; fires from electrical arcs. The next logical question then is, what is an arc?
*What is an arc?*

Majority of consumers are under the impression that electrical fires are caused by short circuits represented by an explosive sound (a big bang), or overload. Although these can as well cause fires, *most electrical fires are caused by the phenomena called arcing which are mainly classified as low and high current arcing. Low current arcing occurs along a wire or conductor when it is cut but sections are not completely isolated from each other, or when a terminal connection is loose causing an intermittent flow of current in the circuit*. *High current arcing occurs when an unstable current path is established between two parallel conductors resulting from a breakdown of insulation, or a pinge, causing an intermittent flow of current.* These arcing conditions are equally destructive in that the heat generated gets so intense that can burn the insulation and ultimately the surrounding materials resulting in structural fire.
The National Fire Protection Agency notes that in 2006 alone, electrical fires damaged approximately 52,500 homes, killed 340 people, and cost $1.447 billion in property damage. Although short circuits and overloads account for some of these fires, arcs are responsible for the majority and are undetectable by traditional (non-AFCI) circuit breakers.
AFCIs function by monitoring the electrical characteristics of a circuit and promptly isolating (interrupting) it from the power source when an arcing condition is detected. To be commercially viable, they must be capable of distinguishing between safe or normal arcs from arcs that can cause fire. *True-Safe’s AFCI receptacle outlets will be the first of its kind..*

*[/spoiler alert]*


~CS~


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## JudyN

Thanks I really didn't have time to research this product, I knew it was rather new to the market.


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## Matt Hermanson

I must presume that the State of NY does not use the 2011 NEC.


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## Speedy Petey

Matt Hermanson said:


> I must presume that the State of NY does not use the 2011 NEC.


What makes you say this?


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## Matt Hermanson

Because the 2011 NEC requires GFCI protection when you replace a receptacle that is located where current NEC requires GFCI protection. The same gets added for AFCI on 01/01/2014.

The protection requirement is only for the receptacle that is replaced and not for the entire circuit.

Wonder over to 406 for a more complete explination.

I did not see how the NY official called for that. It appears she was only calling for GFCI and AFCI for new circuits only.

Maybe I read her wrong, but that's what I got out of it.

What's your take?


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## chicken steve

Perhaps it's that this was a Feb 2011 post, and the 2011 wasn't yet adopted

either way the document needs a tune up, with passages like>



> Type "S" fuses shall be installed when fused equipment is used.


~CS~


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## Speedy Petey

Matt Hermanson said:


> Because the 2011 NEC requires GFCI protection when you replace a receptacle that is located where current NEC requires GFCI protection. The same gets added for AFCI on 01/01/2014.
> 
> The protection requirement is only for the receptacle that is replaced and not for the entire circuit.
> 
> Wonder over to 406 for a more complete explination.
> 
> I did not see how the NY official called for that. It appears she was only calling for GFCI and AFCI for new circuits only.
> 
> Maybe I read her wrong, but that's what I got out of it.
> 
> What's your take?


That was not the original topic or the question. 
The question was do you need to install arc-fault breakers when doing a *panel change or service upgrade*. The answer is still no.
Neither of these things alters the branch circuit so no arc-fault is required.

With regard to the last sentence you do have a point. The writer expanded on the original question.


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## chicken steve

The distinction between repair and new install was addressed in Vt over a decade ago Pete

that Mz 'Cheryl A. Fischer, P.E. Assistant Director for Code Interpretation' (Vt has no such entity, instead depends on NFPA interpetartions) is just NOW copy/pasting her take to what appears to be NY's version of dead sea scrolls is a point i would imagine every NY sparky could take issue with

especially in light of all the past installs, inclusion of version 1 afci's ,lack of double pole afci's , or simply no afci's

who's _liable _retrocatively for the state_ draggin' it's heels_ is the first thought that comes to mind.....

You folks do know we're in a_ new_ millenium....?

~CS~


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## Speedy Petey

chicken steve said:


> The distinction between repair and new install was addressed in Vt over a decade ago Pete
> 
> that Mz 'Cheryl A. Fischer, P.E. Assistant Director for Code Interpretation' (Vt has no such entity, instead depends on NFPA interpetartions) is just NOW copy/pasting her take to what appears to be NY's version of dead sea scrolls is a point i would imagine every NY sparky could take issue with
> 
> especially in light of all the past installs, inclusion of version 1 afci's ,lack of double pole afci's , or simply no afci's
> 
> who's _liable _retrocatively for the state_ draggin' it's heels_ is the first thought that comes to mind.....
> 
> You folks do know we're in a_ new_ millenium....?
> 
> ~CS~


And this means...............?


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## chicken steve

Speedy Petey said:


> And this means...............?


I thought it fairly clear, but will go ONE step @ a time for you.....

When did NY adopt 210.12 B Pete?

210.12 B was written some time ago, right?

If in fact NY JUST adopted 210.12 B, and your _'minister of electrical interpetation'_ is just now addressing retrofits, then my querie is moot

However, if NY adopted 210.12B some time ago, and is just NOW addressing those retrofits , then there exists a time where they were to be of what compliance?

If they were to adhere to 210.12B, they would have been held to doing so even though the technology did not exist (2 pole afci's at one time being the chief culprit)

So.....In the latter case, where does the onus of liability rest?

Is the contractor liable for past retro's w/o afci's? Or would NY state claim soverign immunity for what clearly should have been thier decision from the time 210.12B was adopted?

does that clear it up?

~CS~


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## JudyN

My understanding is that arc fault is only for new circuits, as it would cause nuisance tripping. As far as the arc fault receptacle as I stated earlier I did not research it I only know that they are avaliable. I would think that perhaps they may be line and load as gfi are so you could protect the circuit at the begining. I personaly have had issues with motors ie. fans tripping the arc fault breaker, perhaps this is an alternative? Again I have not done the research to see how they work and where they could be used. Keep in mind that there are GFI breakers as well as receptacles and both are used for differant reasons.
http://www.onestopbuy.com/leviton/AFTR1-GY-63161.asp?pt=frAFTR1-GY&gclid=CMfq6Jns57QCFXCmPAodpAIA2w
:grin:


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## toolaholic

*They do now !*



desar said:


> Hope I'm not getting in to late. I wouldn't install afci in that situation. In the 2011 under articl 210.12 afci that any exstension from an existing circuit is required to have afci protection installed either at the point of connection to the existing circuit or at the origin of the existing circuit.
> 
> :blink: No one makes a afci receptacle yet ,that I'm awair of.


 Good improvement IMO


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## toolaholic

tombs said:


> Is this true in Ca. as well?


I always change to gfci if I see and old receptacle. Also we have a lot of ungrounded receipt. EZ FIX next to lave to ground clamp off of the cold water pipe.


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## chicken steve

JudyN said:


> Again I have not done the research to see how they work and where they could be used. Keep in mind that there are


May i suggest you start here

~CS~


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## toolaholic

chicken steve said:


> May i suggest you start here
> 
> ~CS~


Thanks steve I do own the 2011 NEC. In My community they are more strict on a lot. Just did a new 200 amp panel on 60 Year old home. afci for bedrooms required.
Also installed a new 50 Gal Bradford White Gas Water Heater. Bond Hot to Cold to Gas pipe. I saw a recent post showing No Gas Clamp on thee bond ! Just H. N Cold ?


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## chicken steve

toolaholic said:


> Thanks steve I do own the 2011 NEC. In My community they are more strict on a lot. Just did a new 200 amp panel on 60 Year old home. afci for bedrooms required.
> 
> 
> 
> We were subjected to afci's a full cycle before it became mandatory in the '99 amendments here in Vermont Tool
> 
> At the time, the then chief inspector required us to install afci's in all service upgrades, there were no 2-pole afci's, or afci receptacles
> 
> The ensuing battle ended up in the NFPA's lap , for formal interpetation, and he was summarily shot down
> 
> Thankfully he's also retired now
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also installed a new 50 Gal Bradford White Gas Water Heater. Bond Hot to Cold to Gas pipe. I saw a recent post showing No Gas Clamp on thee bond ! Just H. N Cold ?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'm rather big on bonding myself, a this is a proven method of safety, where i find afci's are not
> 
> ~CS~
Click to expand...


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## Speedy Petey

toolaholic said:


> Just did a new 200 amp panel on 60 Year old home. afci for bedrooms required.


Is this a written code amendment in your area??


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## toolaholic

Speedy Petey said:


> Is this a written code amendment in your area??


You Know Pete, I'll find out. I just got the final inspection on a new W. HTR.
And new laundry . One inspector brought out a new one to the area. She was wrong on some simple plumbing items. I went along ,to get along! It was a Woman, and I don't want to be on Her $hit list ! My Son 41years old [Also Licensed B Gen. Ca. Is very sharp on codes ,He gave Me the heads up on the AFCI Breakers on Bedrooms New Service. He Got it from a C-12 electrician 
that wires in our area.


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## toolaholic

........


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## wluck1965

So everything is either GFCI protected or AFCI protected. Looking in the 2011 code it dosent really say with clarity about lighting circuits. There are 8 areas to use AFCI should a lighting circuit be one? Or a Fire alarm circuit?


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## Speedy Petey

wluck1965 said:


> There are 8 areas to use AFCI should a lighting circuit be one? Or a Fire alarm circuit?


Does a lighting circuit have outlets?
Also see 760.41 & 760.121


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## Shockdoc

Correct me if I'm wrong but the way I read J407.1 is that any repair/rewiring of existing systems does not require AFCI breakers.


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## Matt Hermanson

desar said:


> Hope I'm not getting in to late. I wouldn't install afci in that situation. In the 2011 under articl 210.12 afci that any exstension from an existing circuit is required to have afci protection installed either at the point of connection to the existing circuit or at the origin of the existing circuit.
> 
> :blink: No one makes a afci receptacle yet ,that I'm awair of.


The AFCI receptacles are now out.
The Levitons are around $28 for the 15 amp and $30 for the 20 amp.
I haven't seen the P & S prices yet. The P & S rep said the supply houses would have then March 2013. It is now April, I should find sometime.


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## Matt Hermanson

Sparkyand1 said:


> I believe the route we're going, is if it's not GFI protected it will be AFCI protected.


 
In the 2014, the Kitchens will now have to have AFCI protection as well.

There is also a really stupid allowance to use AFCI receptacles when the wire length is less than 75 feet for 12 awg and 50 feet for 14 awg back to the panel. That just sounds like an enforcement nightmare. And when the $28 AFCI receptacle fails and/or trips all of the time, the DYI will head to Big Orange and get the $1 replacement. Bye bye AFCI protection.


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## Matt Hermanson

JudyN said:


> Has anyone tried putting a gfi on an afci breaker? Will it cause excessive tripping on either end? I cannot find anything in the code that says I cannot do this, but then I'm not sure if it will work correctly?


With the 2014 addition of kitchens to the AFCI protection areas, we are all going to find out.


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## wendon

Matt Hermanson said:


> The AFCI receptacles are now out.
> The Levitons are around $28 for the 15 amp and $30 for the 20 amp.
> I haven't seen the P & S prices yet. The P & S rep said the supply houses would have then March 2013. It is now April, I should find sometime.


About $42 for the plug on QO AFCI breaker. Why not just keep using the breaker? Does the AFCI recept have the correct ma setting to use it by itself for GFI protection in a bathroom etc.?


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## wendon

Matt Hermanson said:


> With the 2014 addition of kitchens to the AFCI protection areas, we are all going to find out.


We cheeseheads haven't even adopted the 2011 code yet!!


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## Matt Hermanson

wendon said:


> About $42 for the plug on QO AFCI breaker. Why not just keep using the breaker? Does the AFCI recept have the correct ma setting to use it by itself for GFI protection in a bathroom etc.?


 
People were asking about the receptacle. I have never used a AFCI receptacle, nor do I plan to. 

Let's play out a situation...

When we are extending a circuit, the new portion must be AFCI protected. And that is all of the new portion that must have the protection. You are not required in the NEC to provide protection to any of the existing portion of the installation.

The original circuit was feed from the panel using two single-pole breakers serving a multi-wire circuit. The existing circuit is grounded so you are allowed to extend it.

The panel is a QO.

Since Square D does not have a combination-type AFCI, two-pole breaker, what are you going to do?

You could replace the two single-pole breakers with a two-pole breaker. And then feed a two-space CH or BR panel. Then install a combination-type two pole breaker in that sub panel. Then feed the old multi-wire circuit from that new sub-panel.

Or you could just replace the receptacle that you are tapping off of with an AFCI receptacle to provide all of the new installation with AFCI protection.


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## Matt Hermanson

wendon said:


> We cheeseheads haven't even adopted the 2011 code yet!!


 
I would be more concerned that way too few "cheeseheads" have passed the exam for the new Wisconsin statewide electrical license that was originally taking effect April 2013.

I have heard a rumor that Wisconsin has delayed the requirement date by one year.


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## Shockdoc

I would tend to believe the only cheesheads are those mandating AFCIs.


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## Caustic CC

If you change out the service from the drop to the meter, leave the existing panel, and repair existing circuits, namely the receptacles, do you need to install tamper proof outlets in the dining / living / family room areas and also install AFCI's in the existing panel?


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## Speedy Petey

If you replace receptacles IMO you do have to install TR's. 
Also IMO you do not have to install AFCI breakers scien you are not altering the branch circuits.


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## Speedy Petey

WOW. I never noticed this:



> *(D) Replacements. Replacement of receptacles shall comply with 406.4(D)(1) through (D)(6), as applicable.
> 
> 
> (4)* *Arc-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection.* Where a receptacle outlet is supplied by a branch circuit that requires arc-fault circuit interrupter protection as specified elsewhere in this _Code_, a replacement receptacle at this outlet shall be one of the following: Changed From 2008
> 
> •
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 406.4(D)(4): Added new requirement covering replacement of a receptacle at a location where arc-fault circuit interruption protection of the branch circuit is required.
> 
> 
> (1)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A listed outlet branch circuit type arc-fault circuit interrupter receptacle
> 
> 
> (2)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A receptacle protected by a listed outlet branch circuit type arc-fault circuit interrupter type receptacle
> 
> 
> (3)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A receptacle protected by a listed combination type arc-fault circuit interrupter type circuit breaker
> 
> 
> This requirement becomes effective January 1, 2014.


So simply replacing a receptacle will now require AFCI protection. What complete bull****.

Also, for clarification:


> *(5)* *Tamper-Resistant Receptacles.* Listed tamper-resistant receptacles shall be provided where replacements are made at receptacle outlets that are required to be tamper-resistant elsewhere in this _Code_.


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## chicken steve

Speedy Petey said:


> What complete bull****.



At this point i'd figure at least 7 out of 10 electricians north of a the mentality of a clam might come to this conclusion

Those that have been trying to add clarity have been summarily stifled, even those who serves in 70's R&D labs creating the effin' thing

But CMP-2 keep pumpin' out the afci requirements

_amazing_, isn't it?

almost like voting for our one party system cloaked in the guise of two party choice...

~CS~


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## Matt Hermanson

So I take it you none of you have a copy of the 2014 yet. In the 2014 AFCI protection-required areas add the kitchen and laundry.:blink:

And now just having a device (such as a switch) in an AFCI area triggers the AFCI requirement for the entire circuit.

The 2011 only used outlets (such as receptacles and smoke alarms) in AFCI areas to trigger the AFCI protection.

The kitchen addition was driven by General Electric. I guess they got sick and tired of buying houses after their dishwashers caused the fire that burned them down. So rather than build better and safer dishwashers, they asked for AFCI protection for dishwasher circuits.

Our now departed GE dishwasher nearly caught fire after either the heating element control circuit failed to closed or the relay failed to closed and caused the heating element to run wild even though the dishwasher was not in cycle. The dishwasher was shipped back to UL for inspection. All they would tell me was that yes I was correct that it was one of those two things. But they wouldn't tell me anymore than that.:whistling2:

So the 2011 calls for meeting the AFCI requirements at any receptacle that currently calls for AFCI protection anytime you just change the receptacle starting January 1, 2014. This DOES NOT require the AFCI protection of the entire circuit. But is does allow protecting the entire circuit as a means of providing the newly required protection at the replaced receptacle.

The 2014 just lengthens the list of areas that will now require AFCI protection. But new provisions were added to allow the use of AFCI receptacles for circuit protection.
#14 wired and less than 50'
#12 wired and less than 75'
Use of RMC, IMC, EMT, MC, Steel Armored AC, PVC in a minimum of 2" of concrete.

And yes, if you replace a receptacle in a location that requires TR, the replacement must be TR.
UNLESS
The replacement is a two-wire being replaced on an ungrounded circuit.
OR
The replacement is at least 5.5 feet above the floor.
OR
The replacement is part of a luminaire or appliance.
OR
The replacement is a single for one appliance or duplex for two appliances that are not easily moved under normal operation and are located in the appliance's dedicated space.

And the TR requirement got extended to hotel/motel guest rooms and child care facilities.

We are in the middle of an email discussion on our One Minute Code Class (c) on AFCI's and GFCI's. If you want to be added, we just need your name, mailing address, and email address to add you to the contact list. And then we need to know what states you are licensed in so we can add you to the correct contact lists. And if you don't have a license, that's ok as well - just say so.


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## HARRY304E

Shockdoc said:


> I would tend to believe the only cheesheads are those mandating AFCIs.


Cheesheads..?


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## Matt Hermanson

You don't know what a "cheese head" is?!

Some reserve that term for Green Bay Packers fans. Others use the term for ANYONE from Wisconsin. Ya no, aye!


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## HARRY304E

Matt Hermanson said:


> You don't know what a "cheese head" is?!
> 
> Some reserve that term for Green Bay Packers fans. Others use the term for ANYONE from Wisconsin. Ya no, aye!


Yeah I do,I just wanted to stop the emails from this thread.:laughing:


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## chicken steve

Matt Hermanson said:


> We are in the middle of an email discussion on our *One Minute Code Class* (c) on AFCI's and GFCI's. If you want to be added, *we just need your name, mailing address, and email address to add you to the contact list.* And then we need to know what states you are licensed in so we can add you to the correct contact lists. And if you don't have a license, that's ok as well - just say so.


First off, the afci's will not prevent glowing connections. 

Glowing connections start fires long before arcs, the studies are 40 yrs old....

check this link when the gub'mit wakes up again

2ndly, the folks , like Dr Joe Engles 2012 IEEE paper, who have been trying to tell you this have summarily been shut down, (link also down)

3rd, the inventor(s) who would address glowing connections as the real culprit, have also been shut down, as well as stalked & almost killed

4th, and in light of the above, asking for those afci dissidents here to actually provide personal information to what may be yet another corporate mole is ludicrous....

~CS~


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## Caustic CC

When you have a customer screaming at you... "I want it just the way it was and it better be CHEAP",
And there will be no inspection involved, 
And she had no children, except for a dog and herself,
And she demands that the panel stay the same even though you replace the complete outside part of the service,
And she DEMANDS you use the existing breakers that were in the panel before the renovation, 
Because "she doesn't have any money for new breakers"....
And when the stupid plastic tabs break off into the outlet and she calls ME screaming that she can't plug anything in....

I never wore a helmet when I rode a bike as a child.
And you rarely see kids playing football in the streets anymore.
F that.


You put in regular outlets.
And no Arc fault breakers.
The code is loaded with bulls**t.


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## timothy wilson

*regarding the message about the residential wiring code*

I am a controls technician for a firing group in a fortune 5oo company and I have had about 13 years as an electrician for commercial and industrial and have done some entrances and also somen house wiring for residential and I would like to know where the codes are for the state that you are referencing so that I can learn them and make sure that I follow all rules and laws that pertain to the work that I am doing. I would also like to know if there is some qualification and licensing that I can aquire to make myself more compatable with the work that I can be doing for the residential side of wiring. Please respond and let me know where I can get this information so that I can be safe an d do the right thing. Tim Wiilson [email protected]


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## Speedy Petey

timothy wilson said:


> I am a controls technician for a firing group in a fortune 5oo company and I have had about 13 years as an electrician for commercial and industrial and have done some entrances and also somen house wiring for residential and I would like to know where the codes are for the state that you are referencing so that I can learn them and make sure that I follow all rules and laws that pertain to the work that I am doing. I would also like to know if there is some qualification and licensing that I can aquire to make myself more compatable with the work that I can be doing for the residential side of wiring. Please respond and let me know where I can get this information so that I can be safe an d do the right thing. Tim Wiilson


Tim, here is a site where you can access many local codes. NYS uses the NY State Residential Code for one and two family dwellings. This is verbatim from the 2008(?) NEC so you can just as easily use that as well.


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## Yankee77

IMO, if a panel is swapped out, the required AFCI breakers *should* be required. This is about safety, isn’t that the whole point of the NEC? Makes zero sense


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## BEC51392

Yankee77 said:


> IMO, if a panel is swapped out, the required AFCI breakers *should* be required. This is about safety, isn’t that the whole point of the NEC? Makes zero sense


I disagree. There are many old houses that the owners cant afford a complete rehab but the main panel desperately needs to be replaced. If it didnt have arc fault to begin with then you are not making anything worse but you are making it better with a new panel. Sometimes you have to take the small victories. I've spent hours chasing "nuisance trips" when trying to change breakers over to AFCI.


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## hbiss

Just saw this. Where did it come from??



> NEW YORK STATE DEPARTMENT OF STATE
> Division of Code Enforcement and Administration
> 99 Washington Avenue Albany, New York 12231
> Phone no. (518) 474-4073 [Fax] (518) 486-4487
> 
> M E M O R A N D U M
> 
> 
> 
> DATE: February 3, 2011
> TO: Regional Staff
> FROM: Cheryl A. Fischer, P.E. Assistant Director for Code Interpretation
> NOTE: Residential electrical system changes


I've worked in New York my entire career and I have never seen or followed any electrical code other than the actual NEC.

NY does not amend the NEC.

-Hal


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