# Starting Union Shop



## Celtic

Potential11 said:


> Good day to all Wireman!
> 
> What does it take to start a Union Shop?


A phone call and some money.

Call the BA in the local you wish to be signatory in and then you will need a bond to cover the men's [employees] benefit package.


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## emahler

Celtic said:


> A phone call and a lot of money.
> 
> Call the BA in the local you wish to be signatory in and then you will need a bond to cover the men's [employees] benefit package.


fixed that for ya...


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## Celtic

emahler said:


> fixed that for ya...


...costs money to make money.


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## jimmy21

Ive heard mixed things about whether you are required to maintain benefits on yourself as a shop owner. Any ideas?



Besides equipment and other tangibles, how much money would it cost to get going to start a 1 man shop with no other employees?


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## emahler

jimmy21 said:


> Ive heard mixed things about whether you are required to maintain benefits on yourself as a shop owner. Any ideas?
> 
> 
> 
> Besides equipment and other tangibles, how much money would it cost to get going to start a 1 man shop with no other employees?


you aren't going to find work for a 1 man union shop...and once you start bidding union work, you are going to need 5 -10 men right away...at $3500/week avg salary..that equals a decent sized nut to cover + material and OH, until you start collecting a draw...

signing up isn't bad...it's financing the work that is expensive


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## jimmy21

emahler said:


> you aren't going to find work for a 1 man union shop...and once you start bidding union work, you are going to need 5 -10 men right away...at $3500/week avg salary..that equals a decent sized nut to cover + material and OH, until you start collecting a draw...
> 
> signing up isn't bad...it's financing the work that is expensive


maybe where your from, but around here there are plenty of 1 man union shops


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## emahler

jimmy21 said:


> maybe where your from, but around here there are plenty of 1 man union shops


not around here...what is the benefit? forced pension?


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## jimmy21

emahler said:


> not around here...what is the benefit? forced pension?


i don't think there is much benefit other then not starting a war with the union. People started union, so they stay with the union title, even if the contract isn't even applied to anyone. Many shops have labor priced below other large union shops, so they can't hardly make a profit off employees. I think most of the 1 man shops do take on an apprentice or even a JW if they get too swamped with work

I am not in a position to start a shop right now, but the goal has always been to start my own one man shop and i have 0 desire to have permanent employees


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## eejack

Potential11 said:


> Good day to all Wireman!
> 
> What does it take to start a Union Shop?


All it takes is contacting your local...ummm...local and getting the paperwork in order. Typically that means insurance and payroll bonding.

I have worked for a few one man shops over the years - when you contact the local be clear about what you want and when you ask for man power, again be clear. Most locals will do their best to keep you in business if you are clear about what you want and what you can offer.

Best of luck.


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## Southeast Power

Potential11 said:


> Good day to all Wireman!
> 
> What does it take to start a Union Shop?


Talk to your BA.
I have been doing this for years.
I have very very good PPO family healthcare including dental and vision and pay into a local and international pension plan, all for about 1400 per month.
If I ever need help, I can get people out on a short call if needed and then send them back when done.

Just be sure to keep up your pension. You will not regret this advise.


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## Celtic

emahler said:


> you aren't going to find work for a 1 man union shop...and once you start bidding union work, you are going to need 5 -10 men right away...at $3500/week avg salary..that equals a decent sized nut to cover + material and OH, until you start collecting a draw...
> 
> signing up isn't bad...it's financing the work that is expensive


I worked for a man-one shop for awhile as an apprentice...mostly retail work....he said going union was the best decision he ever made....I didn't press for more info then and he has been retired for about 10 yrs now.


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## dawgs

eejack said:


> All it takes is contacting your local...ummm...local and getting the paperwork in order. Typically that means insurance and payroll bonding.
> 
> I have worked for a few one man shops over the years - when you contact the local be clear about what you want and when you ask for man power, again be clear. Most locals will do their best to keep you in business if you are clear about what you want and what you can offer.
> 
> Best of luck.


Its not about what he can offer. Its about what can they offer him.


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## slickvic277

Here is my advice to someone looking to become a "union shop".
IMO there's 5 keys to success. If you screw up just one, you will lose money.

First off, on the administrative side there are two things that are imperative.

1) Estimating Skills.
Your margin of error is slim to none. Every single bid must be gone through with a fine tooth comb. You cannot afford to miss anything.
2) Cash Flow.
You have to have cash flow and have it in reserves. Ever see the scene in Good Fella's where Ray Liotta is explaining what it's like to have "Pauly" as a partner?
"Business is slow....F*ck you pay me"
"Had a fire........F*ck you pay me"
"Ohhh you got struck by lightning.........F*ck you pay me!"
That's what it's like when you sign on. You have to have the money every month, month after month for the dues & health/welfare.

The other three are all about being proficient.
You must supply all three of these to the labor in the field at all times. Missing one ingredient and your losing money.

1)Tools.
2)Material.
3)Information.

You meet these requirements and you can be successful.
Good luck.


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## knowshorts

In 2006 I went down to the local hall to find out what all was involved in becoming a one man union shop. Agent wasn't much help so he referred me to the organizer. I left a message with the organizer who was on vacation at the time to get back to me because I had a list of questions. I'm still waiting on that call.

What I did find out is you have to pay a certain amount to the union regardless if you have any work. You cannot participate in the pension unless you also pay into the medical plan. The medical costs around 10k-11k per year minimum. I purchased my own medical for under 2k per year. I also am in charge of my own retirement. With the possibility of corruption, the union plan may not be there when I retire. I also found an online version of the hall if I need guys. It's called Craigslist.

After my research was complete, I believe there is absolutely zero benefit for a one man shop to go union.


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## slickvic277

knowshorts said:


> In 2006 I went down to the local hall to find out what all was involved in becoming a one man union shop. Agent wasn't much help so he referred me to the organizer. I left a message with the organizer who was on vacation at the time to get back to me because I had a list of questions. I'm still waiting on that call.
> 
> What I did find out is you have to pay a certain amount to the union regardless if you have any work. You cannot participate in the pension unless you also pay into the medical plan. The medical costs around 10k-11k per year minimum. I purchased my own medical for under 2k per year. I also am in charge of my own retirement. With the possibility of corruption, the union plan may not be there when I retire. I also found an online version of the hall if I need guys. It's called Craigslist.
> 
> After my research was complete, I believe there is absolutely zero benefit for a one man shop to go union.


I would love to know what kind of medical you got for under 2k a year. Sounds like a great deal.


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## Celtic

slickvic277 said:


> 2) Cash Flow.
> You have to have cash flow and have it in reserves. Ever see the scene in Good Fella's where Ray Liotta is explaining what it's like to have "Pauly" as a partner?
> "Business is slow....F*ck you pay me"
> "Had a fire........F*ck you pay me"
> "Ohhh you got struck by lightning.........F*ck you pay me!"
> That's what it's like when you sign on. You have to have the money every month, month after month for the dues & health/welfare.


Unlike Pauly, the money is for the men's benefits.


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## slickvic277

Celtic said:


> Unlike Pauly, the money is for the men's benefits.


I know.
I was just making the point that there is no excuses. YOU have to have the money. No ifs ands or buts.


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## knowshorts

slickvic277 said:


> I would love to know what kind of medical you got for under 2k a year. Sounds like a great deal.


Anthem - "major accident" policy. 1k deductible. Low deductible no longer offered to new subscribers. Plus vision/dental/life. Only for myself. My boy is on my ex's policy.

I have to pay for office visits. $40-80. Credited to my deductible. No prescription benefits. Don't need them. I get my meds from Target for $4. I even get meds for my dogs there for $4.

I do need to look into a disability type policy, though.


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## slickvic277

knowshorts said:


> Anthem - "major accident" policy. 1k deductible. Low deductible no longer offered to new subscribers. Plus vision/dental/life. Only for myself. My boy is on my ex's policy.
> 
> I have to pay for office visits. $40-80. Credited to my deductible. No prescription benefits. Don't need them. I get my meds from Target for $4. I even get meds for my dogs there for $4.
> 
> I do need to look into a disability type policy, though.


Well, I have info on that. If you're really interested send me a PM because I don't want to waste my time like I did with this topic just recently. Other then that, I wouldn't mind helping you out.


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## Celtic

slickvic277 said:


> I know.
> I was just making the point that there is no excuses. YOU have to have the money. No ifs ands or buts.


I understand..but another reader might not...and assume something vastly different from what you intended.
:thumbsup:


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## Celtic

knowshorts said:


> I also found an online version of the hall if I need guys.
> 
> It's called Craigslist.













You cannot be serious.


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## emahler

Miscommunication? Misunderstanding? Here? HA!


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## slickvic277

Celtic said:


> I understand..but another reader might not...and assume something vastly different from what you intended.
> :thumbsup:





slickvic277 said:


> Good Fella's where Ray Liotta is explaining what it's like to have "Pauly" as a partner?
> "Business is slow....F*ck you pay me"
> "Had a fire........F*ck you pay me"
> "Ohhh you got struck by lightning.........F*ck you pay me!"
> *That's what it's like when you sign on. You have to have the money every month, month after month for the dues & health/welfare.*


I thought that would have been self explanatory but I forget the crowd I'm dealing with here. Good point. :laughing:


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## Celtic

slickvic277 said:


> I thought that would have been self explanatory but I forget the crowd I'm dealing with here. Good point. :laughing:


GoodFellas was on just the other night too :laughing:


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## slickvic277

Celtic said:


> GoodFellas was on just the other night too :laughing:


Yeah, I felt my analogy was pretty good. :laughing:


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## Celtic

slickvic277 said:


> Yeah, I felt my analogy was pretty good. :laughing:


I have yet to see that entire movie in one sitting


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## slickvic277

Celtic said:


> I have yet to see that entire movie in one sitting


You should have a thousand needles shoved into your temples. 
Good god man!


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## emahler

Celtic said:


> I have yet to see that entire movie in one sitting


In all fairness, after watching for 20 mins Celtic acquires a Brooklyn accent and runs out to knock over a liquor store. So, he has a good reason.


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## Celtic

slickvic277 said:


> You should have a thousand needles shoved into your temples.
> Good god man!


LOL :laughing:

I have seen the whole movie.....thats gotta count for something less than a 1000 needles in my skull.


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## slickvic277

Celtic said:


> LOL :laughing:
> 
> I have seen the whole movie.....thats gotta count for something less than a 1000 needles in my skull.


Ok.999 then.:laughing:


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## Loose Neutral

slickvic277 said:


> Here is my advice to someone looking to become a "union shop".
> IMO there's 5 keys to success. If you screw up just one, you will lose money.
> 
> First off, on the administrative side there are two things that are imperative.
> 
> 1) Estimating Skills.
> Your margin of error is slim to none. Every single bid must be gone through with a fine tooth comb. You cannot afford to miss anything.
> 2) Cash Flow.
> You have to have cash flow and have it in reserves. Ever see the scene in Good Fella's where Ray Liotta is explaining what it's like to have "Pauly" as a partner?
> "Business is slow....F*ck you pay me"
> "Had a fire........F*ck you pay me"
> "Ohhh you got struck by lightning.........F*ck you pay me!"
> That's what it's like when you sign on. You have to have the money every month, month after month for the dues & health/welfare.
> 
> The other three are all about being proficient.
> You must supply all three of these to the labor in the field at all times. Missing one ingredient and your losing money.
> 
> 1)Tools.
> 2)Material.
> 3)Information.
> 
> You meet these requirements and you can be successful.
> Good luck.


We call it TIM. Sucks you miss one of those components and you r f'd.


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## Loose Neutral

knowshorts said:


> In 2006 I went down to the local hall to find out what all was involved in becoming a one man union shop. Agent wasn't much help so he referred me to the organizer. I left a message with the organizer who was on vacation at the time to get back to me because I had a list of questions. I'm still waiting on that call.
> 
> What I did find out is you have to pay a certain amount to the union regardless if you have any work. You cannot participate in the pension unless you also pay into the medical plan. The medical costs around 10k-11k per year minimum. I purchased my own medical for under 2k per year. I also am in charge of my own retirement. With the possibility of corruption, the union plan may not be there when I retire. I also found an online version of the hall if I need guys. It's called Craigslist.
> 
> After my research was complete, I believe there is absolutely zero benefit for a one man shop to go union.


If your dedicated on your 401 and plan on staying a one man shop I agree.


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## eejack

slickvic277 said:


> That's what it's like when you sign on. You have to have the money every month, month after month for the dues & health/welfare.


Essentially if you are employing workers, you have payroll and union expenses. If not, then there is no contribution/payment to the union.

Unless you are paying for yourself - which in many cases as a one man shop you can do. You can be a union member and an owner at the same time as long as you pay yourself as a union member.


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## eejack

knowshorts said:


> It's called Craigslist.


I constantly see ads on craigslist for $10 an hour licensed electricians getting filled. Personally I find it sad that everyone is racing to the bottom.

When I broke in, it was explained to me that folks thought electricians were expensive, and I best not disappoint them. Now it seems that we are equivalent to lawn cutters, at least in some markets.


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## jimmy21

eejack said:


> I constantly see ads on craigslist for $10 an hour licensed electricians getting filled. Personally I find it sad that everyone is racing to the bottom.
> 
> When I broke in, it was explained to me that folks thought electricians were expensive, and I best not disappoint them. Now it seems that we are equivalent to lawn cutters, at least in some markets.


how much you want to bet that the contractor is still billing it out at $65+ per hour


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## 007

jimmy21 said:


> how much you want to bet that the contractor is still billing it out at $65+ per hour


If he is he is going to be out of business soon


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## Chris1971

jimmy21 said:


> how much you want to bet that the contractor is still billing it out at $65+ per hour


I prefer $200 - $400 an hour...:whistling2:


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## 007

I can't see limiting a business to only 7% of the market


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## 360max

..going union is the right choice, no worries about the hired help. As a whole, the unions offer the best trained in the industry, hands down!!


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## wendon

emahler said:


> you aren't going to find work for a 1 man union shop...and once you start bidding union work, you are going to need 5 -10 men right away...at $3500/week avg salary..that equals a decent sized nut to cover + material and OH, until you start collecting a draw...
> 
> signing up isn't bad...it's financing the work that is expensive


Just curious, why do you need 5-10 men to bid union work? Just because you bid it doesn't mean you get the job. Maybe you better see if you get the work before calling that many to work. Just my opinion.


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## 007

360max said:


> ..going union is the right choice, no worries about the hired help. As a whole, the unions offer the best trained in the industry, hands down!!


The help you get from the hall are the guys that the rest of the contractors sent back to the hall.


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## eejack

007 said:


> The help you get from the hall are the guys that the rest of the contractors sent back to the hall.


While any contractor gets well trained and motivated folks from our hall, the issue is more along the lines of the type of work being done. Small shops tend to do smaller work - usually with less support. 

Typically our hall sends out a foreman who is used to dealing with small shops - and when a call hits the day room for a small shop it usually gets a special mention.


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## 007

eejack said:


> While any contractor gets well trained and motivated folks from our hall, the issue is more along the lines of the type of work being done. Small shops tend to do smaller work - usually with less support.
> 
> Typically our hall sends out a foreman who is used to dealing with small shops - and when a call hits the day room for a small shop it usually gets a special mention.


Sp all these great hands are just sitting around the hall?


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## emahler

007 said:


> Sp all these great hands are just sitting around the hall?


These days in nj, sadly, yes


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## emahler

wendon said:


> Just curious, why do you need 5-10 men to bid union work? Just because you bid it doesn't mean you get the job. Maybe you better see if you get the work before calling that many to work. Just my opinion.


Nah, I'm a proponent of paying $20-40k in payroll for nothing. 

LOL.


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## eejack

007 said:


> Sp all these great hands are just sitting around the hall?


Actually we have lots of talent idling down the hall.


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## 007

eejack said:


> Actually we have lots of talent idling down the hall.


Not much work for a union contractor I take it.


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## emahler

007 said:


> Not much work for a union contractor I take it.


Noe. And most of the work that is out there is still solar.


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## 007

emahler said:


> These days in nj, sadly, yes


Things could get worse as the push for the repeal of Davis-Beacon will increase as budgets tighten


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## eejack

007 said:


> Not much work for a union contractor I take it.


Not much work at all for any contractors. The bad economy hit NJ hard.


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## denny3992

slickvic277 said:


> Here is my advice to someone looking to become a "union shop".
> IMO there's 5 keys to success. If you screw up just one, you will lose money.
> 
> First off, on the administrative side there are two things that are imperative.
> 
> 1) Estimating Skills.
> Your margin of error is slim to none. Every single bid must be gone through with a fine tooth comb. You cannot afford to miss anything.
> 2) Cash Flow.
> You have to have cash flow and have it in reserves. Ever see the scene in Good Fella's where Ray Liotta is explaining what it's like to have "Pauly" as a partner?
> "Business is slow....F*ck you pay me"
> "Had a fire........F*ck you pay me"
> "Ohhh you got struck by lightning.........F*ck you pay me!"
> That's what it's like when you sign on. You have to have the money every month, month after month for the dues & health/welfare.
> 
> The other three are all about being proficient.
> You must supply all three of these to the labor in the field at all times. Missing one ingredient and your losing money.
> 
> 1)Tools.
> 2)Material.
> 3)Information.
> 
> You meet these requirements and you can be successful.
> Good luck.


great advice for any business man!

i dont understand that alot of contractors lack the last 3 thats where alot of money is lost!!!!!


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## Celtic

007 said:


> Things could get worse as the push for the repeal of Davis-Beacon will increase as budgets tighten


Davis-Bacon repeal seems to a topic every presidential election.


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## 007

Celtic said:


> Davis-Bacon repeal seems to a topic every presidential election.


It's more than a topic now that municipalities are feeling budget crunches. Paying outrageous amounts for labor that is totally out of balance with local wages is hurting many smaller cities . Breaking government unions was the first step next Davis Beakon needs to be abolished as it really does nothing but increase costs to taxpayers.


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## eejack

007 said:


> It's more than a topic now that municipalities are feeling budget crunches. Paying outrageous amounts for labor that is totally out of balance with local wages is hurting many smaller cities . Breaking government unions was the first step next Davis Beakon needs to be abolished as it really does nothing but increase costs to taxpayers.


Davis-Bacon makes for fair and uncorrupted bidding. Perhaps it keeps wages up at a livable wage, perhaps it makes what we do valuable and perhaps it keeps the contractors who have not the financial or logistical means to do a quality job away from work that is in the public interest.

It also prevents a grand race to the bottom for wages - it keeps everyone's wages up. Of course once everyone is getting paid minimum wage no one would be able to pay taxes.

I do not understand this dire need to knee cap American workers.


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## 007

eejack said:


> Davis-Bacon makes for fair and uncorrupted bidding. Perhaps it keeps wages up at a livable wage, perhaps it makes what we do valuable and perhaps it keeps the contractors who have not the financial or logistical means to do a quality job away from work that is in the public interest.
> 
> It also prevents a grand race to the bottom for wages - it keeps everyone's wages up. Of course once everyone is getting paid minimum wage no one would be able to pay taxes.
> 
> I do not understand this dire need to knee cap American workers.


It does none of these things you claim. It artificially inflates the cost of construction projects that are funded by the taxpayer. It forces municipalities to pay more than the same project would cost in the private sector. Davis beacon has become little more than a payoff to unions at taxpayers expense . Unions have forced these deals on municipalities at the tax payers expense for long enough. Unions hold less than7% of the market if their wage was so prevailing they would hold a larger share truth be told government projects are their last stranglehold that we taxpayers are ready to break. Many of the local contractors have discovered they can also turn in wage reports to the dept of labor and cause prevailing wage to more closely reflect the actual prevailing wage of that area.


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## Celtic

007 said:


> It does none of these things you claim.
> 
> Many of the local contractors have discovered they can also turn in wage reports to the dept of labor and cause prevailing wage to more closely reflect the actual prevailing wage of that area.


Sure looks likes you want a race to bottom.


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## 347sparky

007 said:


> It does none of these things you claim. It artificially inflates the cost of construction projects that are funded by the taxpayer. It forces municipalities to pay more than the same project would cost in the private sector. Davis beacon has become little more than a payoff to unions at taxpayers expense . Unions have forced these deals on municipalities at the tax payers expense for long enough. Unions hold less than7% of the market if their wage was so prevailing they would hold a larger share truth be told government projects are their last stranglehold that we taxpayers are ready to break. Many of the local contractors have discovered they can also turn in wage reports to the dept of labor and cause prevailing wage to more closely reflect the actual prevailing wage of that area.


You never hear any complaining by non union employees on these jobs, it's living like a king for a week or month.


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## slickvic277

007 said:


> It does none of these things you claim. It artificially inflates the cost of construction projects that are funded by the taxpayer. It forces municipalities to pay more than the same project would cost in the private sector. Davis beacon has become little more than a payoff to unions at taxpayers expense . Unions have forced these deals on municipalities at the tax payers expense for long enough. Unions hold less than7% of the market if their wage was so prevailing they would hold a larger share truth be told government projects are their last stranglehold that we taxpayers are ready to break. Many of the local contractors have discovered they can also turn in wage reports to the dept of labor and cause prevailing wage to more closely reflect the actual prevailing wage of that area.


By far, PW work is done by open shop contractors. In 2010-2011 we sent out close to 1000 RTK requests in Pennsylvania for a public works market share study and found that over 90% of the PW work was done by open shop.

You're just a hating blow hard talking out of your ass. Seems to be an epidemic around here.


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## 007

Celtic said:


> Sure looks likes you want a race to bottom.


I don't see it as racing anywhere but up. If our city can get projects done at reasonable wages that reflect the local economy then everyone benefits especially we tax payers. Demanding higher and higher wages will eventually break those who have to pay those wages. Now the only place that is left is municipalities that are forced to pay those wages using my taxes. I have no problem if you can secure a high wage and you can get someone to pay what I oppose is having a law that forces those wages to be paid using my tax dollars.


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## 007

347sparky said:


> You never hear any complaining by non union employees on these jobs, it's living like a king for a week or month.


It's my tax dollars and that is the problem if they are living like kings the taxpayer is footing the bill . This is clear evidence that DavisBeacon is not truly reflecting the prevailing wage


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## Celtic

007 said:


> I have no problem if you can secure a high wage and you can get someone to pay. What I oppose is having a law that forces those wages to be paid using my tax dollars.



Thats some serious double speak...

If you can get private sector PW work thats great, but's its not gonna fly when I actually have to pay PW.


The basic premise of PW is a means to stabilize the local economy.


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## Celtic

007 said:


> It's my tax dollars and that is the problem if they are living like kings the taxpayer is footing the bill . This is clear evidence that DavisBeacon is not truly reflecting the prevailing wage



Why?
Because most in a given area are sustained on minimum wage that now becomes the PW?


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## eejack

007 said:


> It does none of these things you claim. It artificially inflates the cost of construction projects that are funded by the taxpayer. It forces municipalities to pay more than the same project would cost in the private sector. Davis beacon has become little more than a payoff to unions at taxpayers expense . Unions have forced these deals on municipalities at the tax payers expense for long enough. Unions hold less than7% of the market if their wage was so prevailing they would hold a larger share truth be told government projects are their last stranglehold that we taxpayers are ready to break. Many of the local contractors have discovered they can also turn in wage reports to the dept of labor and cause prevailing wage to more closely reflect the actual prevailing wage of that area.


Actually it does all of the things I claim.

If you allow unfettered lowest bidder bids you will
- reduce wages universally
- reduce profits for contractors universally
- introduce more reasons to bid illegally or corruptly
- by extension the loss of profits and wages will further depress tax revenues.

Now, it is interesting how you, on one hand - point out the evil union stranglehold and in the next breath mention that prevailing wages are not set by the unions.

I believe in union labor and apparently you do not. However, IMHO your missives would have more credibility if you didn't couch them in talking point stereotypes and misinformation.

Breaking protective laws like Glass-Steagall have decimated our economy. Please look into what Davis-Bacon actually does for you and for your local economy before dismissively discarding it.


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## eejack

007 said:


> I don't see it as racing anywhere but up. If our city can get projects done at reasonable wages that reflect the local economy then everyone benefits especially we tax payers. Demanding higher and higher wages will eventually break those who have to pay those wages. Now the only place that is left is municipalities that are forced to pay those wages using my taxes. I have no problem if you can secure a high wage and you can get someone to pay what I oppose is having a law that forces those wages to be paid using my tax dollars.


Having less and less wages to pay those taxes, you will not have anyone making enough money to pay for anything. If you remove prevailing wage, contractors will be forced to pay minimum wage. No one can live on that.
No one can buy homes on that.

Can you survive on minimum wage?
Can contractors survive making maybe a few cents per man-hour and maybe a point on material?

Schools built with cheap materials using untrained labor off the street by contractors who are barely staying afloat. Is that what your tax dollars are for?


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## 007

Celtic said:


> Thats some serious double speak...
> 
> If you can get private sector PW work thats great, but's its not gonna fly when I actually have to pay PW.
> 
> 
> The basic premise of PW is a means to stabilize the local economy.


No it was racism ,learn the history behind it.


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## 347sparky

007 said:


> It's my tax dollars and that is the problem if they are living like kings the taxpayer is footing the bill . This is clear evidence that DavisBeacon is not truly reflecting the prevailing wage


 
They are living like kings compared to thier normal wage. I talked to a backhoe operator who said "I love working on those government jobs and getting $30 an hour, compared to my normal $15." 

It's my tax dollars too. The local school district I'm in has to take the lowest bid by law. They get the lowest quality too. I can't say too much because my company has to go back in after completion and fix problems from shoddy work of the original contractor. Once they get paid they don't come back to fix anything. You get what you pay for.


----------



## 007

eejack said:


> Having less and less wages to pay those taxes, you will not have anyone making enough money to pay for anything. If you remove prevailing wage, contractors will be forced to pay minimum wage. No one can live on that.
> No one can buy homes on that.
> 
> Can you survive on minimum wage?
> Can contractors survive making maybe a few cents per man-hour and maybe a point on material?
> 
> Schools built with cheap materials using untrained labor off the street by contractors who are barely staying afloat. Is that what your tax dollars are for?


Why would removing PW force contractors to lower thier wages paid? Do private sector contractors pay minimum wage? Are all private sector buildings being built with cheap material? Are contractors passing skilled labor to grab untrained guys off the street? You whole argument fails.


----------



## 007

347sparky said:


> They are living like kings compared to thier normal wage. I talked to a backhoe operator who said "I love working on those government jobs and getting $30 an hour, compared to my normal $15."
> 
> It's my tax dollars too. The local school district I'm in has to take the lowest bid by law. They get the lowest quality too. I can't say too much because my company has to go back in after completion and fix problems from shoddy work of the original contractor. Once they get paid they don't come back to fix anything. You get what you pay for.


And being forced to pay a higher wage does not prevent shoddy work. Why should a "government job" be forced to pay a higher wage than that which is " prevailing" for the area?


----------



## 347sparky

007 said:


> Why would removing PW force contractors to lower thier wages paid? Do private sector contractors pay minimum wage? Are all private sector buildings being built with cheap material? *Are contractors passing skilled labor to grab untrained guys off the street?* You whole argument fails.


 
Yes, grabbing kids out of high school and non english speaking minorities to fill in on the low school bids. One competent guy to babysit 15 helpers. All the contractors have specs on materials to be used but make up for the low bid with the payscale.


----------



## 007

347sparky said:


> Yes, grabbing kids out of high school and non english speaking minorities to fill in on the low school bids. One competent guy to babysit 15 helpers. All the contractors have specs on materials to be used but make up for the low bid with the payscale.


But they must pay these "kids" full JMan wage . So how is this helping low bids?


----------



## 347sparky

007 said:


> *And being forced to pay a higher wage does not prevent shoddy work*. Why should a "government job" be forced to pay a higher wage than that which is " prevailing" for the area?


 
No it does not, but the low wage does not promote it either.


----------



## eejack

007 said:


> Why would removing PW force contractors to lower thier wages paid? Do private sector contractors pay minimum wage? Are all private sector buildings being built with cheap material? Are contractors passing skilled labor to grab untrained guys off the street? You whole argument fails.


It is lowest bid wins system. They HAVE to take the lowest bid.

It is a fact that someone will get cheaper labor than you. The lowest they can legally pay is minimum wage, so that is what they will base their bids on. 

Why pay you $25 an hour when the contractor can hire 3 guys at minimum wage for the same money? So what if they haven't your skill level. They are cheap.

Additionally, since the overhead and financial risks of doing that type of work suddenly get lower, the number of bidders suddenly increases. More competition decreases wages and profits.

Private sector doesn't work that way. Price has a lot to do with things, but it is not the only factor. 

But work it all the way through. When masses of now out of work union electricians start competing for the private commercial/industrial jobs what do you think will happen to those wages. They will go down.

Union contractors, with lots of experience and overhead will go after that work as well - again driving profits and wages down.

With wages dropping the potential workforce increases since skill level typically goes hand in hand with wages. You see it now with craigslist - watch as the economy continues to do poorly wages going down.

Yes, Davis-Bacon is an artificial wage platform, but an entirely necessary one.


----------



## 007

eejack said:


> Breaking protective laws like Glass-Steagall have decimated our economy. Please look into what Davis-Bacon actually does for you and for your local economy before dismissively discarding it.


Davis beacon does little to help our local economy. All it does for me is waste my tax dollars. Our local contractor could pave three streets for what we are being forced to pay the out of town contractor due to Davis beacon.


----------



## 347sparky

007 said:


> But they must pay these "kids" full JMan wage . So how is this helping low bids?


Sorry, the job I mentioned was not a Davis/Bacon job but was tax payer funded.


----------



## 360max

007 said:


> The help you get from the hall are the guys that the rest of the contractors sent back to the hall.


theres only so much work


----------



## eejack

007 said:


> But they must pay these "kids" full JMan wage . So how is this helping low bids?


But they don't. 

No one is stupid enough to pay a kid prevailing wage. They might as well hire a competent journeyman for that wage. 

What they are doing though, is lying and cheating - basically stealing your tax dollars. Pay a kid a third of PW and pocket the rest.

Insist your local gov get labor wage reports, attend all the public meetings and hold *every* contractor up to the standards they should be following. Use the rules and laws to your benefit - make sure you get your money's worth.


----------



## 007

eejack said:


> It is lowest bid wins system. They HAVE to take the lowest bid.
> 
> It is a fact that someone will get cheaper labor than you. The lowest they can legally pay is minimum wage, so that is what they will base their bids on.
> 
> Why pay you $25 an hour when the contractor can hire 3 guys at minimum wage for the same money? So what if they haven't your skill level. They are cheap.
> 
> Additionally, since the overhead and financial risks of doing that type of work suddenly get lower, the number of bidders suddenly increases. More competition decreases wages and profits.
> 
> Private sector doesn't work that way. Price has a lot to do with things, but it is not the only factor.
> 
> But work it all the way through. When masses of now out of work union electricians start competing for the private commercial/industrial jobs what do you think will happen to those wages. They will go down.
> 
> Union contractors, with lots of experience and overhead will go after that work as well - again driving profits and wages down.
> 
> With wages dropping the potential workforce increases since skill level typically goes hand in hand with wages. You see it now with craigslist - watch as the economy continues to do poorly wages going down.
> 
> Yes, Davis-Bacon is an artificial wage platform, but an entirely necessary one.


If all you claim is true then you would see it throughout the private sector and that is just not happening. Government jobs should be bid just like private sector jobs are. What valid reason is thier for forcing government entities to pay more for the same thing? That's why we have $500.00 hammers.


----------



## eejack

007 said:


> Davis beacon does little to help our local economy. All it does for me is waste my tax dollars. Our local contractor could pave three streets for what we are being forced to pay the out of town contractor due to Davis beacon.


However, your local contractor would be probably out of business due to the massive amount of competition - every fellow who could rent a roller would be a road paver. 

At some point you get what you pay for.


----------



## 007

eejack said:


> But they don't.
> 
> No one is stupid enough to pay a kid prevailing wage. They might as well hire a competent journeyman for that wage.
> 
> What they are doing though, is lying and cheating - basically stealing your tax dollars. Pay a kid a third of PW and pocket the rest.
> 
> Insist your local gov get labor wage reports, attend all the public meetings and hold *every* contractor up to the standards they should be following. Use the rules and laws to your benefit - make sure you get your money's worth.


I prefer to fight for the repeal of this outdated law.then we would not have any issues of not paying these inflated wages and if they can't pocket the difference then they won't hire the unskilled labor as this gives then no advantage


----------



## sbrn33

347sparky said:


> Yes, grabbing kids out of high school and non english speaking minorities to fill in on the low school bids. One competent guy to babysit 15 helpers. All the contractors have specs on materials to be used but make up for the low bid with the payscale.


That's just an ignorant comment.


----------



## 007

eejack said:


> However, your local contractor would be probably out of business due to the massive amount of competition - every fellow who could rent a roller would be a road paver.
> 
> At some point you get what you pay for.


Why would he be out of business? It's called free enterprise anyone who can rent a road paver can right now Davis beacon does not stop them. Remove DavisBeacon and the only change would be we would have more streets paved by our local contractor at a considerable savings.


----------



## 347sparky

007 said:


> I prefer to fight for the repeal of this outdated law.then we would not have any issues of not paying these inflated wages and if they can't pocket the difference then they won't hire the unskilled labor as this gives then no advantage


 
If a contractor can get by with unskilled labor why pay for any skilled labor at all? More money in thier pocket.


----------



## 347sparky

sbrn33 said:


> That's just an accurate comment.


 
I fixed it for ya! :thumbsup:


----------



## eejack

007 said:


> Why would he be out of business? It's called free enterprise anyone who can rent a road paver can right now Davis beacon does not stop them. Remove DavisBeacon and the only change would be we would have more streets paved by our local contractor at a considerable savings.


Okay.

I bid ( and win ) the first job that comes up. I rent the paver, hire a couple of high school kids and screw up the job. No big loss me as I probably got a partial payment. Your contractor buddy didn't get this job.

Now - I am never allowed to bid again - bad bidders are not allowed to repeat ( at least in NJ - not sure nationwide ).

But since it was so cheap to make the attempt to bid, this happens over and over again. Each time, your contractor buddy doesn't get the job because, as a responsible contractor he knows he cannot do the work for what the bid gets won at.

Prevailing wage ( and all the paperwork and bonding et. al. that goes with it ) makes access into bidding public works more difficult, and helps the level the field so qualified contractors can bid.

As far as your claim that prevailing wages increase the cost of goods ninefold ( three streets to one, labor being only a portion of the cost of the job - say a third ), that is a bit reckless.


----------



## eejack

007 said:


> I prefer to fight for the repeal of this outdated law.then we would not have any issues of not paying these inflated wages and if they can't pocket the difference then they won't hire the unskilled labor as this gives then no advantage


If there is no reason to hire skilled labor ( as this give them no advantage ) then why wouldn't they pay minimum wage.


----------



## Potential11

Thanks for the good info.


----------



## 007

eejack said:


> Okay.
> 
> I bid ( and win ) the first job that comes up. I rent the paver, hire a couple of high school kids and screw up the job. No big loss me as I probably got a partial payment. Your contractor buddy didn't get this job.
> 
> Now - I am never allowed to bid again - bad bidders are not allowed to repeat ( at least in NJ - not sure nationwide ).
> 
> But since it was so cheap to make the attempt to bid, this happens over and over again. Each time, your contractor buddy doesn't get the job because, as a responsible contractor he knows he cannot do the work for what the bid gets won at.
> 
> Prevailing wage ( and all the paperwork and bonding et. al. that goes with it ) makes access into bidding public works more difficult, and helps the level the field so qualified contractors can bid.
> 
> As far as your claim that prevailing wages increase the cost of goods ninefold ( three streets to one, labor being only a portion of the cost of the job - say a third ), that is a bit reckless.


First off if you have no previous track record of completing jobs of the size bid your low bid would get tossed so that negates your claim.

Your level the field claim is code for it helps the overpriced unions a chance

Along with the labor cost going up the compliance regulations increase admin costs

A private sector Job should be no different than a public works job when it comes to bidding.


----------



## 007

347sparky said:


> If a contractor can get by with unskilled labor why pay for any skilled labor at all? More money in thier pocket.


Unskilled labor would not be profitable .


----------



## 007

eejack said:


> If there is no reason to hire skilled labor ( as this give them no advantage ) then why wouldn't they pay minimum wage.


Then why are private sector jobs not all manned with unskilled minimum wage workers?


----------



## eejack

007 said:


> First off if you have no previous track record of completing jobs of the size bid your low bid would get tossed so that negates your claim.
> 
> Your level the field claim is code for it helps the overpriced unions a chance
> 
> Along with the labor cost going up the compliance regulations increase admin costs
> 
> A private sector Job should be no different than a public works job when it comes to bidding.


There are no 'previous track record' requirements in bidding.

Private sector bidding is different in that low bidder are not required to win. Other factors come into play.


----------



## eejack

007 said:


> Then why are private sector jobs not all manned with unskilled minimum wage workers?


Many are, with perhaps one mechanic/herder type.


----------



## 007

eejack said:


> There are no 'previous track record' requirements in bidding.
> 
> Private sector bidding is different in that low bidder are not required to win. Other factors come into play.


You can't be serious.


----------



## 007

eejack said:


> Many are, with perhaps one mechanic/herder type.


Man you are full of the kool aid , have you even worked in the privat sector? Do you think all the ECs use unskilled labor?


----------



## eejack

007 said:


> Man you are full of the kool aid , have you even worked in the privat sector? Do you think all the ECs use unskilled labor?


I have worked in the private sector. No - not all ECs use unskilled labor. Many do however. Even public work jobs use unskilled labor.

Quick anecdote and I am out of this round and round discussion.

I went to rough in an alarm system for a friend of mine. The contractor had gone around spray painting colored marks on the studs. White for 14, yellow for 12, orange for 10, blue for box. He went down and got day laborers who drilled holes and pulled wires based on those marks. He had his 'smart' laborer nailing up the boxes. Then he had an apprentice type put all the wires in the boxes and strip them. He had some hand tools and he set up the reels on reel jacks.

When I spoke to the apprentice he said he got maybe 3 days of work a week from the contractor and he explained there was an experienced
fellow who followed up behind him who did the panel and the kitchen.

So there - a couple of mechanics doing a simple days work - now being done by day laborers. You think you couldn't teach someone to install receptacles...lighting?

There is not a task out there than cannot be demystified and made so simple that nearly anyone can do it with little or no training. The larger the job, the easier that is.

You will not remain worth whatever you think you are worth when the rules allow you to be worth minimum wage ( or less ). Any alleged tax savings will never make up for your loss of actual income.


----------



## eejack

007 said:


> you can't be serious.


1/10.


----------



## Zog

eejack said:


> I went to rough in an alarm system for a friend of mine.


Side job?


----------



## BDB

360max said:


> ..going union is the right choice, no worries about the hired help.


Only if this was true.:whistling2:


----------



## 007

I love the union Gus who try and defend Davis Beacon as being good for anyone but them and protecting a small part of thier even smaller market. This is one of the reasons many municipalities and even state government do lease back when they need s new building.


----------



## 87Electric

In pa. most non union contractors support davis-beacon. Its supported by democrats and republicans. It keeps contractors from coming in from a lower wage state. It also keeps earned income from leaving the area.


----------



## Celtic

007 said:


> No it was racism ,learn the history behind it.


I have read the history on it....you might need a refresher course.


----------



## slickvic277

007 said:


> I love the union Gus who try and defend Davis Beacon as being good for anyone but them and protecting a small part of thier even smaller market. This is one of the reasons many municipalities and even state government do lease back when they need s new building.


Are we still ignoring the fact that the majority of PW work is done by open shop contractors. Its the whole reason why the ABC even exists.


----------



## Potential11

Thank all contributers of this thread for your comments and invaluable info.


----------



## 007

Celtic said:


> I have read the history on it....you might need a refresher course.


So you read the union version or the truth:whistling2::whistling2:


----------



## 007

slickvic277 said:


> Are we still ignoring the fact that the majority of PW work is done by open shop contractors. Its the whole reason why the ABC even exists.


The unions are just loosing this market but they will milk it for all it's worth . Davis beacon simply needs to be ended for both union and non union.let the free market do what it does best.


----------



## HARRY304E

Potential11 said:


> Thank all contributers of this thread for your comments and invaluable info.


Your Welcome.:thumbsup:


----------



## slickvic277

007 said:


> The unions are just loosing this market but they will milk it for all it's worth . Davis beacon simply needs to be ended for both union and non union.let the free market do what it does best.


So you agree with me that the majority of Public works is done by open shop contractors?


----------



## ProdigalSon

007 said:


> So you read the union version or the truth:whistling2::whistling2:


How did this topic go from starting a union shop to debating the pros and cons of Davis Bacon? I think if the OP wanted to start an open shop, he would. Right?

I am interested in starting a union shop myself, and this is a very needed topic here. It appears some posters have no interest in adding anything constructive, (pun intended) and are only interested in anti-union poop-slinging. 

It never ceases to amaze me how many people despise unions. :icon_rolleyes:


----------



## 007

ProdigalSon said:


> How did this topic go from starting a union shop to debating the pros and cons of Davis Bacon? I think if the OP wanted to start an open shop, he would. Right?
> 
> I am interested in starting a union shop myself, and this is a very needed topic here. It appears some posters have no interest in adding anything constructive, (pun intended) and are only interested in anti-union poop-slinging.
> 
> It never ceases to amaze me how many people despise unions. :icon_rolleyes:


108 post and you think the topic will never change? I don't despise unions I just despise being forced to have my tax dollars pay more for a project just because it falls under an antiquated law. With an ever decreasing market share I do not see any advantage to the contractor.


----------



## Potential11

007 said:


> 108 post and you think the topic will never change? I don't despise unions I just despise being forced to have my tax dollars pay more for a project just because it falls under an antiquated law. With an ever decreasing market share I do not see any advantage to the contractor.


I think the advantage to the contractor is a skilled workforce. The security and well-being of their workers at home and the job add value to his company and reputation due to a sustained positive and productive crew. In turn the contractor reaps rewards manifold.


----------



## emahler

Potential11 said:


> I think the advantage to the contractor is a skilled workforce. The security and well-being of their workers at home and the job add value to his company and reputation due to a sustained positive and productive crew. In turn the contractor reaps rewards manifold.


I believe that, like communism, that's a great theory....but reality doesn't always agree with theory. 

Can't tell you how many "qualified" journeymen we've employed over the years who couldn't think their way out of a paper bag. 

The union needs to uphold their end of the bargain.


----------



## 007

Potential11 said:


> I think the advantage to the contractor is a skilled workforce. The security and well-being of their workers at home and the job add value to his company and reputation due to a sustained positive and productive crew. In turn the contractor reaps rewards manifold.


And we have all of this without being union ,so what would be an advantage?


----------



## slickvic277

slickvic277 said:


> So you agree with me that the majority of Public works is done by open shop contractors?


007, do you agree with this statement?


----------



## 007

slickvic277 said:


> 007, do you agree with this statement?


I have not seen any hard data so I cannot agree or disagree.


----------



## slickvic277

007 said:


> I have not seen any hard data so I cannot agree or disagree.


I'm sure something is floating around google but lets just put this out there for the sake of argument. We can all agree that nationally non union market share is around 90% right?
AND with something like 26 States being Right to Work States those markets have little or no union density coupled with no PW rates on at least the state funded level wouldn't it be atleast a safe assumption that open shops have more influence on PW then union shops in the majority of the market?

Do you think that is a fair assessment?


----------



## 007

slickvic277 said:


> I'm sure something is floating around google but lets just put this out there for the sake of argument. We can all agree that nationally non union market share is around 90% right?
> AND with something like 26 States being Right to Work States those markets have little or no union density coupled with no PW rates on at least the state funded level wouldn't it be atleast a safe assumption that open shops have more influence on PW then union shops in the majority of the market?
> 
> Do you think that is a fair assessment?


No. The vast majority of non union shops do not send reports to the national labor board and often the wage is set to union scale even with reports submitted.
http://www.psrf.org/issues/prevailing.jsp


----------



## McClary’s Electrical

Potential11 said:


> and invaluable info.





HARRY304E said:


> Your Welcome.:thumbsup:


 
please Harry, he wasn't talking to you.


----------



## Potential11

007 said:


> And we have all of this without being union ,so what would be an advantage?


What do you have in the non-union? If what you claim you have is so true why do non-union electricians want to be union electricians.

The question that started this thread was how to start a UNION shop not non union shop.


----------



## slickvic277

007 said:


> No. The vast majority of non union shops do not send reports to the national labor board and often the wage is set to union scale even with reports submitted.
> http://www.psrf.org/issues/prevailing.jsp


It cannot be the vast majority since the majority of States are now RTW. And the example given in the article is Oregon which has high union density, obviously the exception and not the rule.
Also, if open shop contractors are not submitting wage reports (which I agree with you) then they have no one to blame but themselves. Again bringing me back to the fact that non union play a bigger role in PW then portrayed.


----------



## 007

Potential11 said:


> What do you have in the non-union? If what you claim you have is so true why do non-union electricians want to be union electricians.
> 
> The question that started this thread was how to start a UNION shop not non union shop.


Freedom to run our business the way we choose and not be told by a union how we will run our business. I don't see a lot of guys running to sign up at the hall and sit with hundreds of other out of work guys. Many union shops want to drop out to become more competitive in thier market.


----------



## 007

slickvic277 said:


> It cannot be the vast majority since the majority of States are now RTW. And the example given in the article is Oregon which has high union density, obviously the exception and not the rule.
> Also, if open shop contractors are not submitting wage reports (which I agree with you) then they have no one to blame but themselves. Again bringing me back to the fact that non union play a bigger role in PW then portrayed.


Union contractors are mandated in their contract to report wages so thier is a higher probability that thier wages are the ones used but that does not change the fact hat this law does nothing but protect unions and increases costs of public works projects. We could do away with it and let market forces dictate costs just as private sector jobs do.


----------



## slickvic277

007 said:


> Union contractors are mandated in their contract to report wages so thier is a higher probability that thier wages are the ones used but that does not change the fact hat this law does nothing but protect unions and increases costs of public works projects. We could do away with it and let market forces dictate costs just as private sector jobs do.


Mandated to report their wages to who?
When the States do rate surveys all contractors are informed and asked to participate.


----------



## 007

slickvic277 said:


> Mandated to report their wages to who?
> When the States do rate surveys all contractors are informed and asked to participate.


Do you really not know this? Are you a union contractor?


----------



## slickvic277

007 said:


> Do you really not know this? Are you a union contractor?


Are you?
You're avoiding my point.
Are not ALL contractors able to participate in the wage survey?


----------



## ProdigalSon

I have worked on BOTH sides of the fence, and I can tell you from FIRST HAND experience that from the electrician's standpoint, union jobs are by and large SAFER, BETTER QUALITY, AND MEET DEADLINES AS OFTEN AS NON-UNION JOBS. 

That is what I have seen with my very own eyes... Safety prevents lost man-hours and keeps productivity up. This prevents wasted tax-payer money. Safety prevents the job being shut down in the tragic event of a fatality. This prevents wasted tax-payer money. Better quality prevents tasks being re-done a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th time. This prevents wasted tax-payer money. Meeting deadlines prevents wasted tax-payer money. 

Are there any facts from reputable sources that disprove what I am saying?


----------



## slickvic277

ProdigalSon said:


> I have worked on BOTH sides of the fence, and I can tell you from FIRST HAND experience that from the electrician's standpoint, union jobs are by and large SAFER, BETTER QUALITY, AND MEET DEADLINES AS OFTEN AS NON-UNION JOBS.
> 
> That is what I have see with my very own eyes... Safety prevents lost man-hours and keeps productivity up. This prevents wasted tax-payer money. Safety prevents the job being shut down in the tragic event of a fatality. This prevents wasted tax-payer money. Better quality prevents tasks being re-done a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th time. This prevents wasted tax-payer money. Meeting deadlines prevents wasted tax-payer money.
> 
> Are there any facts from reputable sources that disprove what I am saying?


Stop it. The adults are talking.


----------



## 007

slickvic277 said:


> Are you?
> You're avoiding my point.
> Are not ALL contractors able to participate in the wage survey?


I don't see your point. My point is thier is no longer a need for Davis Bacon and it should be repealed. I have seen nothing that would change my position.


----------



## 007

ProdigalSon said:


> I have worked on BOTH sides of the fence, and I can tell you from FIRST HAND experience that from the electrician's standpoint, union jobs are by and large SAFER, BETTER QUALITY, AND MEET DEADLINES AS OFTEN AS NON-UNION JOBS.
> 
> That is what I have seen with my very own eyes... Safety prevents lost man-hours and keeps productivity up. This prevents wasted tax-payer money. Safety prevents the job being shut down in the tragic event of a fatality. This prevents wasted tax-payer money. Better quality prevents tasks being re-done a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th time. This prevents wasted tax-payer money. Meeting deadlines prevents wasted tax-payer money.
> 
> Are there any facts from reputable sources that disprove what I am saying?


Are thier any reputable sources to back up what you claim? :whistling2:


----------



## slickvic277

007 said:


> I don't see your point. My point is thier is no longer a need for Davis Bacon and it should be repealed. I have seen nothing that would change my position.


No, your point has been to blame unions for inflated (which is your opinion) public works cost. My point is that your using Davis Bacon as an avenue to push your anti union agenda.Which is a FAIL because you refuse to recognize that the non union is more responsible for the PW rate then the unions could ever be at this point.

I have made several valid points and you ignored all of them.
Another big mouth exposed.


----------



## 007

slickvic277 said:


> No, your point has been to blame unions for inflated (which is your opinion) public works cost. My point is that your using Davis Bacon as an avenue to push your anti union agenda.Which is a FAIL because you refuse to recognize that the non union is more responsible for the PW rate then the unions could ever be at this point.
> 
> I have made several valid points and you ignored all of them.
> Another big mouth exposed.


Unions have more of an influence on PW because they are mandated to report thier wages non union are not mandated and more likely not to report the wages. If one union contractor reports wages in a county a no non union contractors do then the wage is based on the union contractor. These wages are inflated and nothing you have brought up changes that. Your claim that non union does more PW work still does not change the fact that the unions requirement for reporting wages skews the resut so before you have a victory dance you should actually wait to see if you won.


----------



## 007

slickvic277 said:


> No, your point has been to blame unions for inflated (which is your opinion) public works cost. My point is that your using Davis Bacon as an avenue to push your anti union agenda.Which is a FAIL because you refuse to recognize that the non union is more responsible for the PW rate then the unions could ever be at this point.
> 
> I have made several valid points and you ignored all of them.
> Another big mouth exposed.


So you support the repeal of Davis Bacon


----------



## slickvic277

007 said:


> Unions have more of an influence on PW because they are mandated to report thier wages non union are not mandated and more likely not to report the wages. If one union contractor reports wages in a county a no non union contractors do then the wage is based on the union contractor. These wages are inflated and nothing you have brought up changes that. Your claim that non union does more PW work still does not change the fact that the unions requirement for reporting wages skews the resut so before you have a victory dance you should actually wait to see if you won.


Wage surveys are only done every several years. 
IF contractors under CBA's are mandated to report their wages is debatable. I know for a fact that in my locale the UA did not participate. They feel if PW was abolished they would have an organizing edge in the market. That was their phyloshiphy. Not ours.

The thread (which has strayed from the op) is not really about the effects of Davis Bacon.
Its about people like you making blanket statements that are opinion and not facts. I made several points in the conversation that are valid and contrary to yours and you have avoided them all.

1) Market share in public works is dominated by non union.
2) Open shop contractors have the same opportunity to participate in wage surveys.
3) Davis Bacon is of little effect in RTW States which is now a majority of the country.
4) You continue to blame union contractors for PW rates but fail to recognize the open shops role in that market.


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## 007

slickvic277 said:


> Wage surveys are only done every several years.
> IF contractors under CBA's are mandated to report their wages is debatable. I know for a fact that in my locale the UA did not participate. They feel if PW was abolished they would have an organizing edge in the market. That was their phyloshiphy. Not ours.
> 
> The thread (which has strayed from the op) is not really about the effects of Davis Bacon.
> Its about people like you making blanket statements that are opinion and not facts. I made several points in the conversation that are valid and contrary to yours and you have avoided them all.
> 
> 1) Market share in public works is dominated by non union.
> 2) Open shop contractors have the same opportunity to participate in wage surveys.
> 3) Davis Bacon is of little effect in RTW States which is now a majority of the country.
> 4) You continue to blame union contractors for PW rates but fail to recognize the open shops role in that market.


You have shown nothing to validate non union dominance in the public sector market

I never said merit shops could not participate in the process 

RTW has nothing to do with Davis Bacon

The vast majority of support for the continuation of Davis Bacon is from unions many merit shops would like it repealed although a handful may support it

The unions support for this outdated law is do thier direct benefit from it once again it shows the stranglehold unions would like to keep on governments as they can always squeeze taxpayers for more to support thier outrageous pay and benefit packages that are out of line with he private sector


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## slickvic277

007 said:


> You have shown nothing to validate non union dominance in the public sector market
> 
> I never said merit shops could not participate in the process
> 
> RTW has nothing to do with Davis Bacon
> 
> The vast majority of support for the continuation of Davis Bacon is from unions many merit shops would like it repealed although a handful may support it
> 
> The unions support for this outdated law is do thier direct benefit from it once again it shows the stranglehold unions would like to keep on governments as they can always squeeze taxpayers for more to support thier outrageous pay and benefit packages that are out of line with he private sector


And you cannot disprove it. You are only making a vague geuss that unions make up the majority of PW work. I'm stating that since the open shop makes up 90% of the market share then sheer numbers alone would lead one to the conclusion of their domination of that market too.

You argue that the unions are the soul supporters of DB. Yet you continue to ignore the fact that the open shop has every chance to influence the rate. If you are indeed against the DB you should motivate your open shop counter parts to get off their lazy asses and spend 30 minutes to fill out the damn survey.


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## 347sparky

007 said:


> You have shown nothing to validate non union dominance in the public sector market
> 
> I never said merit shops could not participate in the process
> 
> RTW has nothing to do with Davis Bacon
> 
> The vast majority of support for the continuation of Davis Bacon is from unions many merit shops would like it repealed although a handful may support it
> 
> The unions support for this outdated law is do thier direct benefit from it once again it shows the stranglehold unions would like to keep on governments as they can always squeeze taxpayers for more to support thier outrageous pay and benefit packages that are out of line with he private sector


I'm curious what you think is outrageous pay. What kind of dollar amount or difference? Plus not all union work is in the public sector. Out of the 23 years of union electrical work, I have worked maybe a total of a year in some type of job that was bid to the government. So I have 22 years in the private sector and don't think my compensation is out of line.


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## jimmy21

I find it funny that open shops have such a hard time competing when the wages paid are equal. Why is that again?


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## 007

jimmy21 said:


> I find it funny that open shops have such a hard time competing when the wages paid are equal. Why is that again?


Because without an approved apprentiship program they must pay everyone atJW scale thus puts then at a disadvantage to inion shops who can pay a lower % of scale for apprentices. That is why many merit shops join ABC.


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## 007

347sparky said:


> i'm curious what you think is outrageous pay. What kind of dollar amount or difference? Plus not all union work is in the public sector. Out of the 23 years of union electrical work, i have worked maybe a total of a year in some type of job that was bid to the government. So i have 22 years in the private sector and don't think my compensation is out of line.


pla ?


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## 347sparky

007 said:


> pla ?


 
What? :001_huh:


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## 007

347sparky said:


> What? :001_huh:


Working under s PLA


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## 347sparky

007 said:


> Working under s PLA


Project Labor Agreement?

So what you think is outrageous pay? If I'm on a gov't job or not I'm getting the same amount. I don't know what union scale is in your area but how much are we talking about? Or how much difference? There has to be a number. You would think 22 years of doing private sector work our customers would say "wow! you cost way too much!" What really happens is the service rate or bid for "merit" shops is about equal but just a little less than most union shops so thier profit margin is larger because they don't pay the outrageous wage and benefits.


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## 007

347sparky said:


> Project Labor Agreement?
> 
> So what you think is outrageous pay? If I'm on a gov't job or not I'm getting the same amount. I don't know what union scale is in your area but how much are we talking about? Or how much difference? There has to be a number. You would think 22 years of doing private sector work our customers would say "wow! you cost way too much!" What really happens is the service rate or bid for "merit" shops is about equal but just a little less than most union shops so thier profit margin is larger because they don't pay the outrageous wage and benefits.


Take a state like Texas do you think Huston electricians are making the same as Cut And Shoot electricians? With Davis Bacon the answer would be yes regardless of what was real for those areas.


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## union347sparky

347sparky said:


> Project Labor Agreement?
> 
> So what you think is outrageous pay? If I'm on a gov't job or not I'm getting the same amount. I don't know what union scale is in your area but how much are we talking about? Or how much difference? There has to be a number. You would think 22 years of doing private sector work our customers would say "wow! you cost way too much!" What really happens is the service rate or bid for "merit" shops is about equal but just a little less than most union shops so thier profit margin is larger because they don't pay the outrageous wage and benefits.


So they have more profit for their "job creators". I get good wage, benefits, and a free great education. My boss and owner still makes a good profit as well. 
Non union (around here) gets minimum wage, pays for their own education and pays all their benefits. They all brag about a week of payed vacation. Sounds like I have a better deal. 
So non union people bitch about PLA's wasting their tax dollars. They bitch about unions and our high wages. It must be pure jealously and instead of joining the union or fighting to get more of their "job creators" profit they choose to try to destroy what the union has created. They just want to bring the union down to their level. It's frightening that that's the direction of the USA. take whatever pay your masters will give you and just be thankful you have a job. It's a complete BS.


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## 347sparky

007 said:


> Take a state like Texas do you think Huston electricians are making the same as Cut And Shoot electricians? With Davis Bacon the answer would be yes regardless of what was real for those areas.


The questions were:

So what you think is outrageous pay? If I'm on a gov't job or not I'm getting the same amount. I don't know what union scale is in your area but how much are we talking about? Or how much difference? There has to be a number.


Cut and Shoot electricians?


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## 007

347sparky said:


> The questions were:
> 
> So what you think is outrageous pay? If I'm on a gov't job or not I'm getting the same amount. I don't know what union scale is in your area but how much are we talking about? Or how much difference? There has to be a number.
> 
> 
> Cut and Shoot electricians?


Cut and Shoot is a small Texas town . I have seen total package almost double merit shop many will be close on the check amount but off on benefit package.In our area it would be about a 10-15 dollar difference between what merit shop total package and union total package. In some areas I have no doubt it may be less and in some it may be more.


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## Potential11

007. Are you union?


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## 007

Potential11 said:


> 007. Are you union?


No we are not union. I was back in 81 things were bad similar to now and the politics and favoritism finally got to me and I dropped my ticket. When your a good hand but get passed over on a call because you are not the BA s buddy well it's time to look to greener pastures. Things were probably different back then .


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## 347sparky

007 said:


> Cut and Shoot is a small Texas town . I have seen total package almost double merit shop many will be close on the check amount but off on benefit package.In our area it would be about a 10-15 dollar difference between what merit shop total package and union total package. In some areas I have no doubt it may be less and in some it may be more.


 
I don't know what the merit shop rates are around here, I'm sure they vary between contractors. I still don't think I have an outrageous hourly rate and the contractor has agreed on the pay rate for all jobs, commercial, industrial, and residential (excluding any D-B jobs which would be the same anyway). 
Years ago I worked for a large contractor that had shops in 3 cities in the state and we worked just inside the next state on a short project. We picked up a couple guys from the local hall and had 4 different pay scales going on, $10 difference from low to high. EC policy was you got the highest scale between the home local and new area, that narrowed it up to about $5 low to high, still a fair difference in wages within regions of one state.

You worry about D-B jobs costing taxpayers too much but like I said earlier I have seen the other side of the coin, shortcuts and unqualified workers *on 3 school jobs that I was personally there while doing other work*. That's not a blanket statement on non union work because I have seen some nice stuff too. Just saying when they have to take the lowest bid, sometimes they get exactly what they pay for.


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## Loose Neutral

I'm sick of this low bid crap. Make some type of scale as to their competency to complete the job. When it comes to government jobs and low bids, most of the time it equals crap work.


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## slickvic277

Loose Neutral said:


> I'm sick of this low bid crap. Make some type of scale as to their competency to complete the job. When it comes to government jobs and low bids, most of the time it equals crap work.


LN, the majority of government jobs employ what is called a "value bid" process. Where the lowest bid isn't always the determining factor. Other factors that will be looked at are, the contractors experience, safety records, women & minority participation, employee training, etc. Then the awarding agency comes with a score card along with the bid number and awards the project based on that criteria.

Often the lowest number will not even be considered. Especially on federal works. What the awarding agency has is a window amount. They are looking for a number between a certain window. If your bid is out of that window, it gets tossed. Both high and low.

Guys, this 007 is trolling you. He knows everything about the union because he claims he was a member over 30 years ago, knows everything about PW work yet he operates a Mr. Sparky franchise, and of all things, is cross eyed.:laughing:


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## Potential11

007. Do you own an electrical shop?


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## T-Bart

007 Do you own an Aston Martin?


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## Loose Neutral

Good work Slick. I'm gonna keep my eyes out for a crossed eyed sparky.


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## 007

slickvic277 said:


> LN, the majority of government jobs employ what is called a "value bid" process. Where the lowest bid isn't always the determining factor. Other factors that will be looked at are, the contractors experience, safety records, women & minority participation, employee training, etc. Then the awarding agency comes with a score card along with the bid number and awards the project based on that criteria.
> 
> Often the lowest number will not even be considered. Especially on federal works. What the awarding agency has is a window amount. They are looking for a number between a certain window. If your bid is out of that window, it gets tossed. Both high and low.
> 
> Guys, this 007 is trolling you. He knows everything about the union because he claims he was a member over 30 years ago, knows everything about PW work yet he operates a Mr. Sparky franchise, and of all things, is cross eyed.:laughing:


 you were doing good then you decided to ipost a personal insult. Just what I would expect just call me a rat and get it over with.


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## Celtic

007 said:


> The unions support for this outdated law is do thier direct benefit from it once again it shows the stranglehold unions would like to keep on governments as they can always squeeze taxpayers for more to support thier outrageous pay and benefit packages that are out of line with he private sector





007 said:


> No we are not union. I was back in 81 things were bad similar to now and the politics and favoritism finally got to me and I dropped my ticket. When your a good hand but get passed over on a call because you are not the BA s buddy well it's time to look to greener pastures. Things were probably different back then .



The truth comes out...

A bitter ex-union man who wants to be at the starting gate for the race to the bottom.


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## brian john

As a one man shop or a small 2-5 man shop with nom plans for growth, there is little reason to be union.

The benefits and wages can easily be matched by a caring owner and he avoids any union interference. IF ANY, not saying there would be just one last party to deal with.

As an open shop if you match or exceed union scale and benefits you will still pocket more profits from jobs, avoiding the added cost of being union.


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## eejack

brian john said:


> As a one man shop or a small 2-5 man shop with nom plans for growth, there is little reason to be union.
> 
> The benefits and wages can easily be matched by a caring owner and he avoids any union interference. IF ANY, not saying there would be just one last party to deal with.
> 
> As an open shop if you match or exceed union scale and benefits you will still pocket more profits from jobs, avoiding the added cost of being union.


Conversely, as a union shop you have fixed labor costs and instant/on demand labor. You even have access to specialty labor ( at least in my local ) such as high voltage splicers or communication workers etc. that come with training and certifications.

This labor pool means you can hire at whim and when you slow down, you can lay off at whim as well. No carrying expensive workers when you are slow.

Edit: added this
As far as the overall cost - beyond labor and per hour costs there is the matter of carrying a bond with the local. I cannot imagine, if one 'matches or exceeds union scale and benefits' as brian john put it, that the labor cost would be very different. In some respects, I suspect the union costs would be lower as it is a larger organization and you have economies of scale, but that is a guess.

Beyond the carrying the bond, there are no special union expenses.


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## Sacwhit

Southeast Power said:


> Talk to your BA.
> I have been doing this for years.
> I have very very good PPO family healthcare including dental and vision and pay into a local and international pension plan, all for about 1400 per month.
> If I ever need help, I can get people out on a short call if needed and then send them back when done.
> 
> Just be sure to keep up your pension. You will not regret this advise.


@potential 11 # are you willing to talk more n depth about topic? [email protected]


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