# Sticky  Residential Power Problems



## OneTouch

Hello Everyone, We are a residential technology company and have a client who is having lots of various problems, that i suspect power quality to be the issue. My client has a brand new house in a new subdivision of Saskatoon, SK, he has been living in the home for a little over a year now. in the past year we have replace many major low voltage electrical devices, Projectors, TVs, amplifiers, automated light switches etc with literally every week getting a phone call to something else failing in his home. I have suspected power problems from day 1, but am not sure how to troubleshoot this as the power is always fine when we are onsite. The client doesn't believe me when i suggest power problems because the failures don't regularly happen after a power outage. Although a power outage is probably the only real time power issue that a homeowner could directly see or relate to. Are there any tests that can be done to test for ground resistance, or overall power quality? Or any other ideas? Saskatoon is one of the fastest growing cities in Canada and so lots of new subdivisions and power grid being expanded and tied into all in my clients area of the city,


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## Bird dog

With all those electronics, a whole house TVSS (Transient Voltage Surge Suppressor) would be good and basic. I don't know specifics. Also, is this home on or near the end of the utility electrical line? Electrical storms could cause problems because of this ( are water heater elements going out?).


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## OneTouch

Hello, Thanks for the response.
We currently have APC H15BLK surge suppressors installed in the equipment rack. that didn't do anything when the $7000 amplifier failed last week. as far as the tvs and projectors around the home, they are all wired onto the same breaker separated from everything else, but that is it. I would guess that my clients subdivision would be near the end of the electrical line. It is currently the farthest outskirts of the city. with all new developments being built around them. The client talks like it is only our products that have been failing. Our electronics would be the most sensitive to power issues, though.


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## OneTouch

I should mention that when the amplifier failed it gave an error message that it failed because of voltage issues.


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## Bird dog

You may need a UPS and another TVSS to insure the equipment can sit there fat, dumb and happy. Wait a day or two and see some other posters. In the mean time you could call APC tech support and see what they say.


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## wildleg

1) you can set up a recording meter and leave on site to record power issues
2) when you first suspected issues, it may have been wise to install mini UPS at the expensive items (like the $7000 amplifier) (of course, as we all know, hindsight is 20-20). I have a $125 one for my computer that records power issues as well, and emails me etc if I want it to, which I love.


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## triden

Fluke 435 Series II Power Quality and Energy Analyzer

Rent it, stick it on the line for 2 weeks and see what it says. You can pick one up at any CAT Rental store.


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## AK_sparky

Depending on how loads are divided up, a loose neutral could do that. It would spike the electronics with up to almost 240V.
Are any of the failed devices rated for 240V? If any of them are, then this isn't likely the issue.

If there is cable tv coming into the house, make sure it is bonded properly; that can cause squirrely things to happen.

Aside from that, try to correlate the failures with other events (windy weather, time of day, pumps turning on, etc), any clues can help.

Aside from that, hire someone with a power quality analyzer to monitor it for a few days.


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## RFguy

+1 to a whole house TVSS.

Ask the neighbors if they're having any equipment failures.


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## dmxtothemax

Sounds like spikes !
You will need a good quality
Line voltage analiser
With a fast response.
Short sharp spikes
No matter how intermittant
Can play havoc with modern
Sensitive electronics.


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## Vintage Sounds

triden said:


> Fluke 435 Series II Power Quality and Energy Analyzer Rent it, stick it on the line for 2 weeks and see what it says. You can pick one up at any CAT Rental store.


This. If you're dealing with a pile of expensive equipment failing and having to warranty all of it, anything short of this is a shot in the dark and waste of time.


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## Bootss

Make sure you're sending a bill to the poco for all of that equipment that is getting burnt up


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## ELECTRICK2

Vintage Sounds said:


> This. If you're dealing with a pile of expensive equipment failing and having to warranty all of it, anything short of this is a shot in the dark and waste of time.


 Yes, put a monitor on it. TVSS are great but don't do anything for voltage sags


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## ampman

Lep said:


> Make sure you're sending a bill to the poco for all of that equipment that is getting burnt up


You had better be able to prove it was their fault before you send any bill, right now you are just guessing


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## Big John

When you go to put the monitor on, bring a 120V space heater. Kill all the brach circuits, hook the heater up and watch your L-N voltage on each leg, then swap to the opposite leg and recheck. 

Anything other than a very small, steady L-N voltage change and you have a neutral problem.


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## hotwire480

As I was reading the post I got to thinking about a neutral or grounding issue. I have had customers with similar issues and found bad connection with the grounding or neutral connection.


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## Southeast Power

OneTouch said:


> Hello, Thanks for the response.
> We currently have APC H15BLK surge suppressors installed in the equipment rack. that didn't do anything when the $7000 amplifier failed last week. as far as the tvs and projectors around the home, they are all wired onto the same breaker separated from everything else, but that is it. I would guess that my clients subdivision would be near the end of the electrical line. It is currently the farthest outskirts of the city. with all new developments being built around them. The client talks like it is only our products that have been failing. Our electronics would be the most sensitive to power issues, though.


Something to consider.
When people have that much electronic gear and just want to plug it in anywhere and not consider how it can rattle their electrical system. It's time to sit down and catalogue every piece of gear they have and find out which one is the problem.
Are any of the neighbors having a problem?
Also, the next and cheapest move would to put everything he has that he wants to keep on a nice battery back up.
Not the cheap ones, that switch on failure, the ones that run the load through the battery 100% of the time.


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## hardworkingstiff

Big John said:


> When you go to put the monitor on, bring a 120V space heater. Kill all the brach circuits, hook the heater up and watch your L-N voltage on each leg, then swap to the opposite leg and recheck.
> 
> Anything other than a very small, steady L-N voltage change and you have a neutral problem.


I agree with BJ, although I use a heat gun or hair dryer in lieu of a space heater.

It happened to my neighbor. They complained to the PoCo about lights dimming down/up, and I happened to be outside when the PoCo lineman showed up. He checked the voltage at the meter and said everything was fine.

I caught him before he left and asked him to watch my testing, got the homeowner to turn on a hair dryer and watched the voltage on the leg being used drop about 15V and the unused leg went up by that much. I told the lineman they had a neutral problem. He argued against it and said it was fine. After a few minutes of back and forth I got him to radio his supervisor. He brought back (from his truck) a "special" meter that tested for this and sure enough, problem with their incoming conductors. Digging crew was there in a couple of hours and an hour later had found an underground splice that had gone bad.


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## Big John

hardworkingstiff said:


> ...He brought back (from his truck) a "special" meter that tested for this and sure enough, problem with their incoming conductors....


 Probably a Beast of Burden. Looks a lot more professional than a DMM and hair dryer. 










Also, I love how even when they have the tools on the truck, they'll spend longer arguing with you than it would take to do the test. I swear to god the POCOs should just change their motto: _"It's never our fault until you prove it is!"


_


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## sbrn33

hotwire480 said:


> As I was reading the post I got to thinking about a neutral or grounding issue. I have had customers with similar issues and found bad connection with the grounding or neutral connection.


How would a bad grounding connection cause this?


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## hotwire480

When the utility has lost their ground at the pole, then it relies on the homeowners. If the home owners ground rods are too close to the foundation in dry dirt, it doesn't conduct very good. 
I have had several situations where we found the ground rod driven under the overhang in the dry dirt. We have moved them out into the lawn where it is moist from rain and it seems to cure the problem.
It is possible that the incoming wires need to be checked in the meter and main breaker or neutral bars.
We find a lot of loose neutrals. Never hurts to double check all the lugs and screws in the panel fiirst. They tend to loosen up over time.


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## Bird dog

*OneTouch Reply 11-21-15*

I contacted OneTouch for an update, posted with permission:

We have not solved the problem yet. I ended up hiring a consultant who is able to properly analyze the power system in my clients home. He installed a fluke meter and left onsite for a couple weeks just to data log everything. 
Upon initial site analysis we did find several major problems that my client is getting fixed. 
First- power fluctuations between the meter outside the home and the electrical panel.
Second- 200a panel is not balanced. 18a draw on one side and 90a draw on the other side. 
Third and probably the worst. dangerous levels of harmonics.
We viewed in realtime as high as 220% harmonics across the 1st, 3rd and 7th orders. 
The consultant has only just removed the meter and started to analyze the data yesterday. So I will know more once he gets back to me with the results. He said he will be submitting the readings into Schneider for review and recommendation on how to clean up and filter the harmonics.


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## Bird dog

*OneTouch Replies 2-12-16*

I contacted OneTouch for an update, posted with permission:

So the issue is still not fully resolved. The consultant had provided Schneider and a couple other large power companies the results and my client was not happy with the proposal. The pricepoints of the solutions came to $20,000+ using large scale commercial/ industrial power conditioners and UPS systems and installing them in a home. 
So as everything currently sits, I have lent my client a few Furman M4315-Pro power conditioners for the AV racks. This has appeared to help the situation within the racks but nothing has been done for the whole home power situation. The client says that he will get the elec panel balanced and the incoming power fluctuations fixed. Once the elec panel is balanced the harmonics would be divided more across the 2 sides of the electrical panel and maybe this would be enough of a drop in harmonics to bring it so a safer or "tolerable" level in the home without having the expensive hardware solutions.


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## cuba_pete

Bird dog said:


> I contacted OneTouch for an update, posted with permission:
> 
> We have not solved the problem yet. I ended up hiring a consultant who is able to properly analyze the power system in my clients home. He installed a fluke meter and left onsite for a couple weeks just to data log everything.
> Upon initial site analysis we did find several major problems that my client is getting fixed.
> First- power fluctuations between the meter outside the home and the electrical panel.
> Second- 200a panel is not balanced. 18a draw on one side and 90a draw on the other side.
> Third and probably the worst. dangerous levels of harmonics.
> We viewed in realtime as high as 220% harmonics across the 1st, 3rd and 7th orders.
> The consultant has only just removed the meter and started to analyze the data yesterday. So I will know more once he gets back to me with the results. He said he will be submitting the readings into Schneider for review and recommendation on how to clean up and filter the harmonics.


Voltage or current harmonics? How impressive are the third order harmonics?

This seems an odd finding considering you only have a split-phase system (considering your 18a/90a fact)...highly suspect, in fact.



Bird dog said:


> The pricepoints of the solutions came to $20,000+ using large scale commercial/ industrial power conditioners and UPS systems and installing them in a home.


I'm working for the wrong people. I do this regularly for a less than wage salary.:blink:

The M4315 is a "power conditioner" per making the AC not brown out or admitting transients, and more a power distribution unit with surge suppression/power disconnect. The "conditioning" is the bugaboo of dirty power that people are hung up on.

From the literature:

 _If the M4315-PRO senses an unsafe power condition, it will automatically *disconnect *your equipment from the power to protect equipment from damage._
​ If it were "conditioning" the power, then the power events would be handled by the unit and provide clean sine wave 120V P-P power to the A/V system. If conditioned by a one or two stage (pure sine) UPS, then power would continue to flow without interruption in addition to the conditioning.​ .​ That unit is just a really nice network addressable surge suppressing power strip (power distribution unit) with some filtering for EMI/RFI. It won't do anything for the harmonics since those are likely created by the plethora of cheap SMPS's in the AV system and elsewhere in the home. This unit's filtering _starts_ at 5kHz.​ .​ 





 ​ _*What's going on with that EGC anyway?*_​ .​ Don't get me wrong, it does exactly what it says. But thinking that it's doing some magic to the power actually used by the equipment it serves is slightly...how shall I say...flawed. (?)​ .​ Most commercial or high-end consumer equipment has the filtering built in anyway.​ .​ It's a Band-Aid in this case.
.​ A good electrician can take the findings from the Fluke power quality survey and make the situation a whole lot better for a whole lot cheaper.​


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## guest

My commentary in red in the following quotes:



Bird dog said:


> I contacted OneTouch for an update, posted with permission:
> 
> We have not solved the problem yet. I ended up hiring a consultant who is able to properly analyze the power system in my clients home. He installed a fluke meter and left onsite for a couple weeks just to data log everything.
> Upon initial site analysis we did find several major problems that my client is getting fixed.
> *First- power fluctuations between the meter outside the home and the electrical panel. *If this is as worded, they need to call in an electrician, not a "consultant". And if they only used a single PQA, how did they get to this conclusion?
> *Second- 200a panel is not balanced. 18a draw on one side and 90a draw on the other side. *So what? this, in and of itself, isn't a problem that would cause equipment to fail... (oh, and also is symptomatic of an A/V designer that still follows the old myth that ALL audio equipment MUST be on the same phase..which is true only when you don't know what you are doing.)
> *Third and probably the worst. dangerous levels of harmonics.
> We viewed in realtime as high as 220% harmonics across the 1st, 3rd and 7th orders. *Just how are those levels of harmonics possible on a single phase system? (It IS possible that the house's main service is three phase 208y/120, not unheard of for large homes.)
> The consultant has only just removed the meter and started to analyze the data yesterday. So I will know more once he gets back to me with the results. He said he will be submitting the readings into Schneider for review and recommendation on how to clean up and filter the harmonics.






Bird dog said:


> I contacted OneTouch for an update, posted with permission:
> 
> So the issue is still not fully resolved. The consultant had provided Schneider and a couple other large power companies the results and *my client was not happy with the proposal. The pricepoints of the solutions came to $20,000+ using large scale commercial/ industrial power conditioners and UPS systems and installing them in a home. *(I'd be royally pissed by this, as it shows no one paid attention to proper wiring techniques in the first place.....see my comment under "Second" above..)
> So as everything currently sits, I have lent my client a few Furman M4315-Pro power conditioners for the AV racks. This has appeared to help the situation within the racks but nothing has been done for the whole home power situation. The client says that he will get the elec panel balanced and the incoming power fluctuations fixed. Once the elec panel is balanced the harmonics would be divided more across the 2 sides of the electrical panel and maybe this would be enough of a drop in harmonics to bring it so a safer or "tolerable" level in the home without having the expensive hardware solutions.



This kind of thing never ceases to amaze me...in the 30 years I have been in the business doing A/V and cinemas/screening rooms....the one common denominator is that anytime a client gets suckered into those "esoteric" equipment specs (a $7,000 amplifier? Really? I can equip a screening room with 6-8 solid, reliable amplifiers that will blow your socks off and sound great for that same money..) they find out it has all kinds of problems, requiring yet more ridiculous amounts of money to fix. 

At last count, I have spec'd and/or installed over 1,500 cinema systems and over 200 home screening rooms (Including rooms for some major players in the film industry)...and by following a few very simple requirements I end up with a reliable system with no hum or noise issues and great sound. 

Those principles are:



Provide enough circuits for the equipment, using ALL available phases. (Especially important to split up amplifiers onto as many circuits as possible...their normal operation does create voltage and current sags and spikes.)
Keep most if not all of the "line level" equipment on one phase (but I have split that up too with no ill effects.)
Install dedicated neutrals for ALL A/V circuits. (Yes it does matter.)
Forget about "Isolated Ground" receptacles (or any of the other BS like oxygen-free, gold plated cryogenically treated receptacles or cables). Just use common, Code-Compliant grounding.
The a/v rack should get a separate bonding conductor, #8 or #6 (I have seen plenty of installs without this and they work fine.)
Follow good practice on all audio wiring (separation from power, telescoping shielding, cable dressing etc.)
And most importantly, don't waste time or money on esoteric equipment..most of the time there is a reason they aren't made in quantity and cost a lot..because they AREN'T reliable or suitable for the task. And worse, they often don't sound good at all.


In conclusion you honor, the OP needs to get a GOOD _*electrician*_ involved to fix the ONE legitimate power issue. And hopefully one with cinema/commercial audio experience to make sure the equipment was wired properly in the first place.


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## Bird dog

Thank you cuba_pete & mxslick for posting. Mxslick is it possible to make this thread permanent and easily accessible reference for the future?


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## readydave8

hotwire480 said:


> When the utility has lost their ground at the pole, then it relies on the homeowners. If the home owners ground rods are too close to the foundation in dry dirt, it doesn't conduct very good.
> I have had several situations where we found the ground rod driven under the overhang in the dry dirt. We have moved them out into the lawn where it is moist from rain and it seems to cure the problem.


What about a drought, when ground is very dry even outside roof overhang? Does our electricity not work very well until the next time it rains, and then it gets better again?


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## hardworkingstiff

Bird dog said:


> First- power fluctuations between the meter outside the home and the electrical panel.


If you get any more details that generated this statement, please share with us. 

I'm intrigued as to how they made that determination (2 sets of meters? one at the meter and one at the panel? where did they connect for the sampling? what were the readings? )


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## guest

Bird dog said:


> Thank you cuba_pete & mxslick for posting. *Mxslick is it possible to make this thread permanent and easily accessible reference for the future?*


Yes, for now I will make it a "stuck" thread..and I will as soon as I have more time create a new thread in the "Recalls, Safety Notices and *References*" subforum using key posts from this one.

Edit: While looking this over caught a few real gems from the OP:



> *The client talks like it is only our products that have been failing*.


From this list:



> ...we have replace many *major low voltage electrical devices, Projectors, TVs, amplifiers, automated light switches* etc with literally every week getting a phone call to something else failing in his home.


Sounds like it IS only their products that are failing. 

And this seems to validate my point that this was designed/installed by someone who hasn't a clue:



> ..*as far as the tvs and projectors around the home, they are all wired onto the same breaker* separated from everything else


Even in a modest home of 2000 sq feet the cost to wire all of that onto ONE circuit (breaker) would be a waste.

I feel sorry for that client.....


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## cuba_pete

readydave8 said:


> What about a drought, when ground is very dry even outside roof overhang? Does our electricity not work very well until the next time it rains, and then it gets better again?


I can't tell if serious, or...?lain:


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## PlugsAndLights

sbrn33 said:


> How would a bad grounding connection cause this?


I'm always skeptical when the grounding is supposed to be the cause 
of a problem. About all the gnd does is protect the hydro distribution
system from lightning strikes.


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## readydave8

cuba_pete said:


> I can't tell if serious, or...?lain:


It's not so much serious or not, just taking a statement and logically extending to arrive at facetious conclusion, thereby challenging original statement.

"Honey, tv's acting up again, go pour a bucket of water on the ground rod"

And of course I may be wrong, have been before.


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## Bird dog

You would think if ground resistance was a widespread problem, everyone would know about it & mitigate it.


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## macmikeman

You could remove all connected wiring to ''ground'' at the location and your power will operate flawlessly as long as your neutral connections back to the utility are in good shape. However , the electrical inspector will have a heart attack when he finds out.......


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## SdCountySparky

Check this out:

http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/SectionDisplay.jsp?section=39994&minisite=10251


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## surenoproblem

In regards to grounding being an issue. The scenario of the neighbors house loosing the neutral from the POCO, and having everything run through the bonded plumbing/gas lines between the houses come to mind.


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## MechanicalDVR

surenoproblem said:


> In regards to grounding being an issue. The scenario of the neighbors house loosing the neutral from the POCO, and having everything run through the bonded plumbing/gas lines between the houses come to mind.


That seems very unlikely (while possible in older areas) when water mains and gas lines have all been done in plastic since the late 70s early 80s.


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## surenoproblem

MechanicalDVR said:


> That seems very unlikely (while possible in older areas) when water mains and gas lines have all been done in plastic since the late 70s early 80s.


I saw it once doing a service upgrade. Looked at the drop going to the house next door (panel was 20-30' from the one i just put in) and the neutral was cut clean. Showed the inspector and it was fixed three days late when i went back. 1960s neighborhood with crawl spaces and metal water pipe bonds, sometimes ground rods.


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## Bird dog

This is an old thread. The real culprit was probably badly designed audio/visual equipment. The OP never did come back and say was the problem was.


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## Drsparky14

OneTouch said:


> Hello, Thanks for the response.
> We currently have APC H15BLK surge suppressors installed in the equipment rack. that didn't do anything when the $7000 amplifier failed last week. as far as the tvs and projectors around the home, they are all wired onto the same breaker separated from everything else, but that is it. I would guess that my clients subdivision would be near the end of the electrical line. It is currently the farthest outskirts of the city. with all new developments being built around them. The client talks like it is only our products that have been failing. Our electronics would be the most sensitive to power issues, though.




Have a new circuit ran with an isolated ground. Use hospital grade isolated ground outlets. Make sure there is at least 20ohm to ground or less resistance on your grounding electrodes. 

I've had a neutral fail at the electrical utility transformer before and the ground rods were not installed properly at the house. I checked the voltage at an outlet and it was at 3400 volts. 

Extreme example I know, but your grounding electrodes need to be properly installed. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## backstay

Drsparky14 said:


> Have a new circuit ran with an isolated ground. Use hospital grade isolated ground outlets. Make sure there is at least 20ohm to ground or less resistance on your grounding electrodes.
> 
> I've had a neutral fail at the electrical utility transformer before and the ground rods were not installed properly at the house. I checked the voltage at an outlet and it was at 3400 volts.
> 
> Extreme example I know, but your grounding electrodes need to be properly installed.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Ground rods don't fix an open neutral at the PoCo transformer.


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## Semi-Ret Electrician

PlugsAndLights said:


> I'm always skeptical when the grounding is supposed to be the cause
> of a problem. About all the gnd does is protect the hydro distribution
> system from lightning strikes.


True, grounding electrodes aren't very useful. except when lightning hits.


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## Blazzin

*EH*



OneTouch said:


> Hello Everyone, We are a residential technology company and have a client who is having lots of various problems, that i suspect power quality to be the issue. My client has a brand new house in a new subdivision of Saskatoon, SK, he has been living in the home for a little over a year now. in the past year we have replace many major low voltage electrical devices, Projectors, TVs, amplifiers, automated light switches etc with literally every week getting a phone call to something else failing in his home. I have suspected power problems from day 1, but am not sure how to troubleshoot this as the power is always fine when we are onsite. The client doesn't believe me when i suggest power problems because the failures don't regularly happen after a power outage. Although a power outage is probably the only real time power issue that a homeowner could directly see or relate to. Are there any tests that can be done to test for ground resistance, or overall power quality? Or any other ideas? Saskatoon is one of the fastest growing cities in Canada and so lots of new subdivisions and power grid being expanded and tied into all in my clients area of the city,





I would suggest sitting down with the homeowner and expressing real concern for his home. As I sat here and read what you said its clear money isn't the issue but the problem is exactly what you're saying. And you can keep taking his money and fixing numerous issues but it wont fix the actual problem that is causing it to happen.


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## B-Nabs

Drsparky14 said:


> Have a new circuit ran with an isolated ground. Use hospital grade isolated ground outlets. Make sure there is at least 20ohm to ground or less resistance on your grounding electrodes.
> 
> I've had a neutral fail at the electrical utility transformer before and the ground rods were not installed properly at the house. I checked the voltage at an outlet and it was at 3400 volts.
> 
> Extreme example I know, but your grounding electrodes need to be properly installed.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


3400V wrt what reference point? And what meter did you use to measure this voltage. Mine would have blown up.


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## MechanicalDVR

B-Nabs said:


> 3400V wrt what reference point? And what meter did you use to measure this voltage. Mine would have blown up.


Most blow the internal fuse over 1000v.


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## SydneyElectricians

OneTouch said:


> Hello Everyone, We are a residential technology company and have a client who is having lots of various problems, that i suspect power quality to be the issue. My client has a brand new house in a new subdivision of Saskatoon, SK, he has been living in the home for a little over a year now. in the past year we have replace many major low voltage electrical devices, Projectors, TVs, amplifiers, automated light switches etc with literally every week getting a phone call to something else failing in his home. I have suspected power problems from day 1, but am not sure how to troubleshoot this as the power is always fine when we are onsite. The client doesn't believe me when i suggest power problems because the failures don't regularly happen after a power outage. Although a power outage is probably the only real time power issue that a homeowner could directly see or relate to. Are there any tests that can be done to test for ground resistance, or overall power quality? Or any other ideas? Saskatoon is one of the fastest growing cities in Canada and so lots of new subdivisions and power grid being expanded and tied into all in my clients area of the city,





You can use Fluke 1625-2 to determine the health of your earth ground systems or ground resistance.


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## Easy

Use a data logger to capture voltage fluctuations and leave it in place for a few days to a week. Then print out a report and give it to the power company if you need proof that they are the cause. I also think you should unplug all the electronic devices until you get this resolved. It could be something simple like a floating nuetral on a branch circuit or and that might not be the power company causing that. Is this an issue on both A and B phase or just one leg ? Good luck ...


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## bostonPedro

As someone stated in another post you should rent a monitor. to view voltage over a period. I have a suspicion that that being in in area with new construction and more than likely lackluster grid system that you may need a power conditioner. 
Something like this should do the job for a room that is loaded with sensitive equipment. 
Tripp Lite power conditioner. I cant post a link to it (I tried) but this board requires at least 20 posts to make a link

Its more than likely the POCO at fault but you need to monitor the voltage. About 10 years ago I made a small fortune replacing replacing motors because the POCO was doing work in an area with a loads of bastard leg connections and the POCO had once reliable and working motors running in reverse so they burned out-good luck taking it to court though as I told a customer


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## bostonPedro

Tripp Lite power condition costs about $160 to $189 dollars. It comes in a 120 volt or 230 volt version. The one I would recommend for you does 6 outlets but they have versions with higher wattage's that do up to 14 outlets if that is required. 
1800W 120V Power Conditioner with Automatic Voltage Regulation (AVR), AC Surge Protection, 6 Outlets........on the Tripp Lite site


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## sparky5021

OneTouch said:


> Hello Everyone, We are a residential technology company and have a client who is having lots of various problems, that i suspect power quality to be the issue. My client has a brand new house in a new subdivision of Saskatoon, SK, he has been living in the home for a little over a year now. in the past year we have replace many major low voltage electrical devices, Projectors, TVs, amplifiers, automated light switches etc with literally every week getting a phone call to something else failing in his home. I have suspected power problems from day 1, but am not sure how to troubleshoot this as the power is always fine when we are onsite. The client doesn't believe me when i suggest power problems because the failures don't regularly happen after a power outage. Although a power outage is probably the only real time power issue that a homeowner could directly see or relate to. Are there any tests that can be done to test for ground resistance, or overall power quality? Or any other ideas? Saskatoon is one of the fastest growing cities in Canada and so lots of new subdivisions and power grid being expanded and tied into all in my clients area of the city,



have you checked your main neutral connection? that could be done by sask power. because, if the connection of the neutral is loose, you will get un-balanced circuits sending a surge on one side of your panel. ex. (pole 1= 175v, pole 2=65v.) depending when the wind blows, it could move your neutral connection to give you that surge.


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## sparky5021

OneTouch said:


> Hello Everyone, We are a residential technology company and have a client who is having lots of various problems, that i suspect power quality to be the issue. My client has a brand new house in a new subdivision of Saskatoon, SK, he has been living in the home for a little over a year now. in the past year we have replace many major low voltage electrical devices, Projectors, TVs, amplifiers, automated light switches etc with literally every week getting a phone call to something else failing in his home. I have suspected power problems from day 1, but am not sure how to troubleshoot this as the power is always fine when we are onsite. The client doesn't believe me when i suggest power problems because the failures don't regularly happen after a power outage. Although a power outage is probably the only real time power issue that a homeowner could directly see or relate to. Are there any tests that can be done to test for ground resistance, or overall power quality? Or any other ideas? Saskatoon is one of the fastest growing cities in Canada and so lots of new subdivisions and power grid being expanded and tied into all in my clients area of the city,



have you checked your main neutral connection? that could be done by sask power. because, if the connection of the neutral is loose, you will get un-balanced circuits sending a surge on one side of your panel. ex. (pole 1= 175v, pole 2=65v.) depending when the wind blows, it could move your neutral connection to give you that surge. also should check in meter box


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## Coppersmith

sparky5021 said:


> have you checked your main neutral connection? that could be done by sask power. because, if the connection of the neutral is loose, you will get un-balanced circuits sending a surge on one side of your panel. ex. (pole 1= 175v, pole 2=65v.) depending when the wind blows, it could move your neutral connection to give you that surge. also should check in meter box


Dude, why are you responding to a five year old post?


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## cuba_pete

Coppersmith said:


> Dude, why are you responding to a five year old post?


I clicked on this from my User CP, and read my response those years ago and was like, damn...I used to do much better.


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## cuba_pete

Coppersmith said:


> Dude, why are you responding to a five year old post?


Did you get a PM from this two-post "electrician" as well? I don't know why they bothered. I think the forum scares them.

They must have found this thread through some snake-oil resolution to a similar issue?


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## mikewillnot

My money is on a loose neutral: main panel, meter, transformer, POCO connections somewhere. Rule #6: Failing electronics? Check the neutral.


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## cuba_pete

mikewillnot said:


> My money is on a loose neutral: main panel, meter, transformer, POCO connections somewhere. Rule #6: Failing electronics? Check the neutral.


Rule #6 is clearly Cast Iron Skillet, which is the Swiss Army Knife of the cookware world. I don't see any Rule for "loose neutral", but maybe Rule #18, Stay Limber?


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## Quickservice

wildleg said:


> 1) you can set up a recording meter and leave on site to record power issues
> 2) when you first suspected issues, it may have been wise to install mini UPS at the expensive items (like the $7000 amplifier) (of course, as we all know, hindsight is 20-20). *I have a $125 one for my computer that records power issues as well*, and emails me etc if I want it to, which I love.


Same here... Tripp-Lite unit on two computers. Works great... has saved my bacon during several power outages.


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## Quickservice

mikewillnot said:


> *My money is on a loose neutral*: main panel, meter, transformer, POCO connections somewhere. Rule #6: Failing electronics? Check the neutral.


I will join that bet.


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## kbatku

Bad neutral, possibly a power company issue. If there are other houses served by the transformer check with them and see if they are having issues


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## emtnut

kbatku said:


> Bad neutral, possibly a power company issue. If there are other houses served by the transformer check with them and see if they are having issues


Just in time kbatku ! I bet 100s of thousands of dollars has been zapped in the last 6 years there !


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## cuba_pete

emtnut said:


> Just in time kbatku ! I bet 100s of thousands of dollars has been zapped in the last 6 years there !


Those are chargeable hours, I’m sure.


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## Majewski

Lep said:


> Make sure you're sending a bill to the poco for all of that equipment that is getting burnt up


Lol they dont give a rats arse

Poco argues endlessly its fine, not their fault bla bla bla.

im on my second case in one month like this now
And the poco is consistent with their push back.

well its either them or we need to call the winchester boys


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## kbatku

emtnut said:


> Just in time kbatku ! I bet 100s of thousands of dollars has been zapped in the last 6 years there !


Always glad to be of service


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## SWDweller

You mentioned harmonics. 

Do this put your VOM on HZ and stick it into a outlet. Hot to neutral then the rest of the relationships. The Fluke 87 will show the largest harmonic. No information on the amount just that it is there. 180, 270, 420 or close will show you the 3rd, 5th, or 7th harmonic. These are the ones that can create problems. If this is what is found then you need a better meter for identification. 

These harmonics are generally created by the equipment close to the problem.

Do you have a ground test meter? 3 or 4 point? An AMEC 6416? Some of the newer and higher cost meters will direct read harmonics.

To solve the problem you have to narrow it down to either current or voltage.


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## NoBot

In my area, near Pittsburgh PA,, the utility will install a recorder on the meter for a week at no charge.


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