# Gas pipe bonding



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

As long as the furnace is wired you do not have to do anything to the gas piping.250.104(B). The egc will suffice unless the gas piping is the flexible CSST piping. In that case you will probably need a #6 from anywhere on the piping, but not on the CSST pipe itself, to the main panel.


You should also be aware of art. 250.94 for the intersystem bonding.


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## waco (Dec 10, 2007)

The gas PUCO here doesn't want any bonding to their lines at all. Best go with the jurisdiction's wants.


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

gas pipe bonding?
No way man.
250.52(b)1: metal underground gas piping system (shall not be used)
250.104(b) there's an allowance here for it to be bonded, but I assume it is above ground...? 
(all code 2005)


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

BuzzKill said:


> gas pipe bonding?
> No way man.
> 250.52(b)1: metal underground gas piping system (shall not be used)
> 250.104(b) there's an allowance here for it to be bonded, but I assume it is above ground...?
> (all code 2005)


 

Buzzkill,,,bonding a gas pipe does not make it a GEC,,,,,Dennis's statement was correct.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

BuzzKill said:


> gas pipe bonding?
> No way man.
> 250.52(b)1: metal underground gas piping system (shall not be used)
> 250.104(b) there's an allowance here for it to be bonded, but I assume it is above ground...?
> (all code 2005)


Buzz everytime you wire a gas furnace the gas pipe gets bonded. Most all the utility gas companies have a coupling or union, called a dielectric union, that isolates the underground pipe from the internal pipes.

The gas companies do not want there pipes used as a gec. They are not used as a gec when we bond the gas lines inside the structure.


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

hmph....


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Buzz, we are required to bond the gas pipe. Read art.250.104(B) . Fortunately this article allows the egc of the circuit to be used as the bond.



> 250.104(B) Other Metal Piping. Where installed in or attached to a building or structure, a metal piping system(s), including gas piping, that is likely to become energized shall be bonded to the service equipment enclosure, the grounded conductor at the service, the grounding electrode conductor where of sufficient size, or the one or more grounding electrodes used. The bonding jumper(s) shall be sized in accordance with 250.122, using the rating of the circuit that is likely to energize the piping system(s). *The equipment grounding conductor for the circuit that is likely to energize the piping shall be permitted to serve as the bonding means. *The points of attachment of the bonding jumper(s) shall be accessible.
> FPN: Bonding all piping and metal air ducts within the premises will provide additional safety.


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

actually I've never seen it or done, but I guess I see the need, somewhat...bonding a gas line just seems stupid and dangerous...


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

BuzzKill said:


> actually I've never seen it or done, but I guess I see the need, somewhat...bonding a gas line just seems stupid and dangerous...


Buzz, you don't doing anything special. Every time you wire the gas furnace it automatically bonds the gas pipe because the pipe is attached the housing. The egc does it as soon as you connect it to the ground terminal or wire in the junction box of the furnace.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

This is what we have to do in Mecklenburg County.


Required Bonding of CSST Piping 


*NEW CSST RULE!*
*The effective date of this Rule is December 1, 2009.*
_*The Statutory authority for Rule-making is G. S. 143-136; 143-138.*_
2009 NC Fuel Gas Code
310.2 CSST Bonding. (090310 Item B-2)
*310.2 CSST Bonding. *CSST Gas piping systems shall be bonded to the electrical service grounding electrode system at the point where the gas service enters the building. The bonding jumper shall not be smaller than 6 AWG copper wire or equivalent.

*CSST HISTORY*

As a result of a class action lawsuit involving the installation of CSST piping, the manufacturers of the products now require additional bonding above the minimum requirements of the NEC.
The bonding conductor that is required by the manufacturers' installation instructions shall be done by a properly licensed North Carolina electrical contractor. The bonding instructions shall be furnished to the licensed electrical contractor and to the electrical inspector by the installer of the CSST piping system. The electrical contractor shall follow the instructions precisely as provided by the installer of the CSST piping system.
The bonding of the CSST piping is considered electrical contracting and no portions of the bonding system may be installed by the Mechanical Contractor or others. The complete bonding system SHALL BE installed by the properly licensed Electrical Contractor. (Bonding Clamps, Wire, and all connections) 
Two inspections MAY BE required when the bonding system is installed:
1. If any part of the bonding system will be hidden by wall covering, floor covering, ceiling covering, or any other material or objects that will prevent the complete bonding system from being seen, a rough inspection will be required.
2. If the entire bonding system can be seen continuously without any obstructions then only a final inspection will be required.
Beginning September 1, 2007 an additional Electrical permit will be required for the inspection of the CSST piping system bonding. Certificates of Occupancy and Certificates of Compliance will not be issued until the bonding of the CSST piping system is inspected and completed.


Here is some more info on CSST bonding. 
http://www.charmeck.org/NR/rdonlyre...qbuzd6ytnxzdzc5uf/AdditionalpermitforCSST.pdf


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Buzz, you don't doing anything special. Every time you wire the gas furnace it automatically bonds the gas pipe because the pipe is attached the housing. The egc does it as soon as you connect it to the ground terminal or wire in the junction box of the furnace.


the name is BuzzKill. Get it straight.


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Buzz, you don't doing anything special. Every time you wire the gas furnace it automatically bonds the gas pipe because the pipe is attached the housing. The egc does it as soon as you connect it to the ground terminal or wire in the junction box of the furnace.


That I should have figured out or known, but I blanked.
I'm stuck on using gas pipes as an GE only as being non code.
Again, I am shot down in flames talking code with Dennis.
One day I will win dammit!


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

BuzzKill said:


> Again, I am shot down in flames talking code with Dennis. One day I will win dammit!


I have no doubt you will. Buzzkill---- I like buzz better


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## VersaJoe (Nov 19, 2009)

My Inspector just recently told me he was going to start looking for this... and I am confused about when it should be done, I thought if the furncace is hard piped with black iron, and is propoerly wired to the electrical system, it's technically already bonded, I am going to show him this thread and clear the air once and for all...


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

VersaJoe said:


> My Inspector just recently told me he was going to start looking for this... and I am confused about when it should be done, I thought if the furncace is hard piped with black iron, and is propoerly wired to the electrical system, it's technically already bonded, I am going to show him this thread and clear the air once and for all...


 The reason for bonding the gas pipe is because some jobs use that flex gas pipe called CSST and when it is used that is when it needs to be bonded. You have to bond it by the manufactures instructions which is usually a #6 and larger.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

VersaJoe said:


> My Inspector just recently told me he was going to start looking for this... and I am confused about when it should be done, I thought if the furncace is hard piped with black iron, and is propoerly wired to the electrical system, it's technically already bonded, I am going to show him this thread and clear the air once and for all...


 


You, Dennis and William are correct. If it's all black iron, then it's considered bonded (per 250.104 (b) by the EGC sized per 250.122,,,


if there's ANY CSST, ANYWHERE,,,even a short piece behind the stove, then you bond the pipe and size it per 250.66 (for wardflex),,,the other manufacturers call for a #6 no matter what size the GEC is


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

mcclary's electrical said:


> You, Dennis and William are correct. If it's all black iron, then it's considered bonded (per 250.104 (b) by the EGC sized per 250.122,,,
> 
> 
> if there's ANY CSST, ANYWHERE,,,even a short piece behind the stove, then you bond the pipe and size it per 250.66 (for wardflex),,,the other manufacturers call for a #6 no matter what size the GEC is


 I have heard that if all the have is that short 3' or 4' piece behind the stove or at the Heat unit that that was OK. Has anyone else heard this?


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

FYI, the 2009 International Fuel Gas Code and the 2009 International Residential Code now require ALL CSST, regardless of whether or not the manufactures require it, to be bonded with a #6 AWG wire from the point where the gas service enters the building to the electrical service equipment grounding electrode system.

Here is the IFGC section;



> *
> **310.1 Pipe and tubing other than CSST.​*​​​​Each above-ground
> portion of a gas _piping _system other than corrugated stainless
> steel tubing (CSST) that is likely to become energized shall be
> ...


​ 
And Here is the IRC section;



> *
> G2411.1 (310.1) Pipe and​​​​tubing other than CSST. ​*Each
> above-ground portion of a _gas piping system _other than corrugated
> stainless steel tubing (CSST), that is likely to becomeenergized
> ...




*Chris*​*
*


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Good info Chris


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

william1978 said:


> I have heard that if all the have is that short 3' or 4' piece behind the stove or at the Heat unit that that was OK. Has anyone else heard this?


I thought the short flex piece behind the stove was not CSST but a different animal altogether.

Remember also that some CSST piping, such as Omegaflex's counter strike product, do not need special bonding.


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I thought the short flex piece behind the stove was not CSST but a different animal altogether.


The small yellow pipe that connects the black gas piping to an appliance is an appliance connector and not CSST.



> Remember also that some CSST piping, such as Omegaflex's counter strike product, do not need special bonding.


Unfortuanatly under the new 2009 I-codes that doesn't matter and you must still bond the CSST with a #6.

Chris


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I thought the short flex piece behind the stove was not CSST but a different animal altogether.
> 
> Remember also that some CSST piping, such as Omegaflex's counter strike product, do not need special bonding.


 That is what I thought also. I think the counter strike was black and one of the manufactures that needed to be bonded changed there color to black so I have to look at every piece like it needs to be bonded and that is why I ask for the manufactures instructions.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

VersaJoe said:


> My Inspector just recently told me he was going to start looking for this... and I am confused about when it should be done, I thought if the furncace is hard piped with black iron, and is propoerly wired to the electrical system, it's technically already bonded, I am going to show him this thread and clear the air once and for all...


Rather than showing him this thread why not give him a code book.


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

electricmanscott said:


> Rather than showing him this thread why not give him a code book.


Well said.:thumbsup:

Chris


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

BuzzKill said:


> gas pipe bonding?
> No way man.
> 250.52(b)1: metal underground gas piping system (shall not be used)
> 250.104(b) there's an allowance here for it to be bonded, but I assume it is above ground...?
> (all code 2005)


Is it not that the underground gas piping system be used as a grounding electrode, but must be bonded and sized to the circuit hot conductor.


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## fondini (Dec 22, 2009)

I was just in a house today that had caught fire from a lightening strike,every place where the trac pipe was installed, it started a fire. There was no bond that I could find anywhere on the gas line. I will get some pictures and try to post them on here. You might say I am sold on the gas bonding!


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

fondini said:


> I was just in a house today that had caught fire from a lightening strike,every place where the trac pipe was installed, it started a fire. There was no bond that I could find anywhere on the gas line. I will get some pictures and try to post them on here. You might say I am sold on the gas bonding!


I would like to see the pictures but as far as I know the bonding has nothing to do with a lightning strike. Why would anyone want to draw a lightning current towards something like a gas pipe. It makes no sense. The bonding is to facilitate the tripping of the circuit overload device.


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

RIVETER said:


> I would like to see the pictures but as far as I know the bonding has nothing to do with a lightning strike. Why would anyone want to draw a lightning current towards something like a gas pipe. It makes no sense. The bonding is to facilitate the tripping of the circuit overload device.


The whole reason that the CSST industry has changed their bonding requirements is due to a lawsuite in regards to CSST failures during lightning events.

Chris


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

raider1 said:


> The whole reason that the CSST industry has changed their bonding requirements is due to a lawsuite in regards to CSST failures during lightning events.
> 
> Chris


How did they fail?


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

RIVETER said:


> How did they fail?


That was part of the lawsuit.

Google CSST and lightning and you will get a plethora of information on the subject.

Chris


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

raider1 said:


> That was part of the lawsuit.
> 
> Google CSST and lightning and you will get a plethora of information on the subject.
> 
> Chris


I don't even know how to spell phlethora. If the csst failed what would be the worst to happen...electrically, that is.?


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

RIVETER said:


> I don't even know how to spell phlethora. If the csst failed what would be the worst to happen...electrically, that is.?


I'm guessing fire and/or an extreme hazard.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

BuzzKill said:


> I'm guessing fire and/or an extreme hazard.


 
I worked a house fire last yeat from CSST. What happens is during a lightning strike, the gas line and metal around it are at two different potentials. If they ARC between the two pieces of metal, the CSST is so thin it burns a hole right through it, and out comes the gas,,,,the rest is history.

This particular house had a tree that was struck right beside the house. There was a piece of CSST up side the house hid inside of a fake metal downspout, where the down spout ended, and they CSST exited and entered the house was where it sparked between the two pieces of metal. It looked like someone had taken a flame thrower to the kitchen. Luckily, it was tank supplied that wasn't very full. Had this been city gas, it would been a total loss


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I thought the short flex piece behind the stove was not CSST but a different animal altogether.
> 
> Remember also that some CSST piping, such as Omegaflex's counter strike product, do not need special bonding.


 
Although I agree with you, technically the short piece is the same material as the spool they stretch through a house. I know most inspectors around here (with exceptions of course) call the short piece CSST, (it is corrugated, , it is stainless steel, it is tubing )and therefor require a bond


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Although I agree with you, technically the short piece is the same material as the spool they stretch through a house. I know most inspectors around here (with exceptions of course) call the short piece CSST, (it is corrugated, , it is stainless steel, it is tubing )and therefor require a bond


The short piece may be of the same material but it is a listed appliance connector and would not fall under the same regulations as general piping in the fuel gas codes. If the manufacture of the appliance connector required the #6 bonding jumper then that would be different.

Chris


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

raider1 said:


> The short piece may be of the same material but it is a listed appliance connector and would not fall under the same regulations as general piping in the fuel gas codes. If the manufacture of the appliance connector required the #6 bonding jumper then that would be different.
> 
> Chris


Thanks Chris, I am glad you got my back... :thumbup::laughing:. It really sucks that Omegaflex makes this special csst to avoid the bonding issue just to have an authority shoot them down with new regulations. I bet they will fight that rule and get it modified.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

Different locations = different requirements.

Here we must bond the cold water and gas piping. #4 (200a service) to the water. Gas bond has to be one size smaller than the largest branch circuit conductor (likely to energize). Generally we just take the #4 to both water and gas.

We can jumper off the water (or ground rods) to hit the gas.

If the only gas piping is to the furnace, the EGC in the BC will probably be sufficient in a lot of areas


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

220/221 said:


> Different locations = different requirements.
> 
> Here we must bond the cold water and gas piping. #4 (200a service) to the water. Gas bond has to be one size smaller than the largest branch circuit conductor (likely to energize). Generally we just take the #4 to both water and gas.
> 
> ...


So this sounds like AZ makes the rules up as the go-- sort of a touchy feely place. Where in the world did they come up with one size smaller???? then the largest branch circuit likely to energize. Talk about a can of worms...wow.


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## waco (Dec 10, 2007)

This looks pretty good: http://www.toolbase.org/pdf/techinv/csst_lightningconcerns.pdf


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> I worked a house fire last yeat from CSST. What happens is during a lightning strike, the gas line and metal around it are at two different potentials. If they ARC between the two pieces of metal, the CSST is so thin it burns a hole right through it, and out comes the gas,,,,the rest is history.
> 
> This particular house had a tree that was struck right beside the house. There was a piece of CSST up side the house hid inside of a fake metal downspout, where the down spout ended, and they CSST exited and entered the house was where it sparked between the two pieces of metal. It looked like someone had taken a flame thrower to the kitchen. Luckily, it was tank supplied that wasn't very full. Had this been city gas, it would been a total loss


Okay, I'm not a plumber and have never run a copper line inside an aluminum downspout but if I did, might I expect that at some point the dissimilar metals may have deteriorated the copper line creating a small leak, at first, then with the right conditions, ignite whether, or not a lightning strike came on the scene? With the loose gas building up within the fake downspout it would be like a poorly made pipe bomb. Any plumbers out there?If you call it an electrical fire the insurance company would be good with that; If you attributed it to faulty plumbing work, they would not. I think I know the answer.


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## waco (Dec 10, 2007)

What I know for sure is that I didn't come up to speed on this CSST. After reading that piece, I'm still not sure the stuff is tough enough for the "black iron" real world.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

Dennis Alwon said:


> So this sounds like AZ makes the rules up as the go-- sort of a touchy feely place. Where in the world did they come up with one size smaller???? then the largest branch circuit likely to energize. Talk about a can of worms...wow.


 
I should have clarified. Rule of thumb as quoted by an inspector. I don't know how they size gas bond because I always oversize it, as well as the GEC by using the same #4 as the water bond.

I do know the "likely to energize" part is in there. IMO, if a circuit is likely to energize piping, something is wrong.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

220/221 said:


> I should have clarified. Rule of thumb as quoted by an inspector. I don't know how they size gas bond because I always oversize it, as well as the GEC by using the same #4 as the water bond.
> 
> I do know the "likely to energize" part is in there. IMO, if a circuit is likely to energize piping, something is wrong.


I feel the same way about the"likely to be energized" phrase. It is written there because they were too lazy to figure something out. Nothing that is not a part of an electrical system is likely to be energized unless someone makes a mistake; just as you implied.


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## joe cool (Jun 4, 2009)

Sorry to digress but I felt like a follow-up to my original post. Now I know some new stuff about gas pipe bonding addressing CSST and that can't hurt.
Did the service change today and gas pipe bonding never came up. He saw the #6 to the ground rod and water main and went away satisfied. He even called in the approval to the POCO before I even hooked connected them and a good four hours before I was done with the panel. It feels good to be trusted, especially since this is my first county/not city job.
One more Federal Pacific panel in the landfill.
Don't know how it can be done in four hours, it took me twelve and I'm proud of myself.
Thanks for your help.


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

RIVETER said:


> I feel the same way about the"likely to be energized" phrase. It is written there because they were too lazy to figure something out. Nothing that is not a part of an electrical system is likely to be energized unless someone makes a mistake; just as you implied.


The term "likely to be energized" in 250.104(B) is there because where metal piping systems and electrical circuits interface through mechanical and electrical connections within equipment, a failure of electrical insulation can result in the connected piping system becoming energized.

Chris


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

raider1 said:


> The term "likely to be energized" in 250.104(B) is there because where metal piping systems and electrical circuits interface through mechanical and electrical connections within equipment, a failure of electrical insulation can result in the connected piping system becoming energized.
> 
> Chris


You are talking "piping" as in conduit system. That is part of an electrical system. Just because metal is in the vicinity of an electrical system does not make it part of the electrical system. There is no interfacing between any other metal component, except for the GE system We talked a while back about whether or not we should bond the aluminum sheeting of a house. Most said "No way" because of the likelyhood of it not being energized. I have seen them ENERGIZED. I believe those that write the code need to think more about the basics of electricity and maybe they won't spend their time writing a rule making an electrician drill the floor joists in a crawspace. Just my opinion.


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

RIVETER said:


> You are talking "piping" as in conduit system. That is part of an electrical system. Just because metal is in the vicinity of an electrical system does not make it part of the electrical system. There is no interfacing between any other metal component, except for the GE system We talked a while back about whether or not we should bond the aluminum sheeting of a house. Most said "No way" because of the likelyhood of it not being energized. I have seen them ENERGIZED. I believe those that write the code need to think more about the basics of electricity and maybe they won't spend their time writing a rule making an electrician drill the floor joists in a crawspace. Just my opinion.


I am not talking about conduit, I am talking about the gas piping system.

A furnace is directly connected to the gas piping system via the appliance connector. The furnace is supplied with a 120 volt circuit for the blower and control circuit supply. Therefore the gas pipe and the electrical system are interconnected in the gas furnace and if there is a failure of the blower motor insulation the gas pipe may become energized. Therefore the gas piping system must be bonded.

Now 250.104(B) permits the equipment grounding conductor of the circuit (furnace circuit) likely to energize the gas pipe to be used to bond the gas piping system.

The problem is that with CSST the manufacture says the EGC of the circuit likely to energize the circuit is not enough and they require a #6 bonding jumper.

Chris


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Chris, I aagree with you. I wonder, though, how a plumbing pipe manufacturer figures that they can determine the size of a bonding jumper.


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

RIVETER said:


> Chris, I aagree with you. I wonder, though, how a plumbing pipe manufacturer figures that they can determine the size of a bonding jumper.


I am not aware of any substantial justification for the #6 bonding jumper that the CSST manufactures are requiring. IMHO they pulled the size out of their... well you know where.

Chris


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> Chris, I agree with you. I wonder, though, how a plumbing pipe manufacturer figures that they can determine the size of a bonding jumper.


Trust me with the 100 million dollar lawsuit that they had the gas piping companies hired some electrical engineers to determine the bonding jumper.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Trust me with the 100 million dollar lawsuit that they had the gas piping companies hired some electrical engineers to determine the bonding jumper.


Now that I think about it the #6 looks conspicuously like the size we use for grounding electrode conductors. I guess they figure that if the electrical contractors can get off with that size why not them. Surely they are not sizing the bonding jumper as if the gas line is a grounding electrode.


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

RIVETER said:


> Chris, I aagree with you. I wonder, though, how a plumbing pipe manufacturer figures that they can determine the size of a bonding jumper.


yeah that and testing I'm sure. You don't want to go f'n with an arc flash/dead short around natural gas lines.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Trust me with the 100 million dollar lawsuit that they had the gas piping companies hired some electrical engineers to determine the bonding jumper.


I don't doubt what you are saying but the egc has no need to be larger than the ungrounded circuit conductor. To say that a #6 copper wire is needed to bond around a gas line is just inviting the lightning current to travel where it might not have. And I'll say that to the OEM's face...What's he look like?


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