# Apprenticeship: Low Pay!



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

As an apprentice you're not worth more than that. You have a lot to learn and you actually cost the company money by slowing down the journeyman who have to train you. You might find a job offering $15 to start but that's about it if you're totally green. As for the IBEW, check with the local in your area but having once lived in CT and applied to the New Haven local, I can tell you you're not getting in unless you know someone. That being said, times may have changed and they are more open to accepting anyone due to the labor shortage. 

But unlike dead end jobs that stay at $11 an hour, your pay progressively increases every year as your skill set expands.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

You can try to negotiate, but you likely won't win.

Even at $11 an hour a company is going to be loosing money on you for a while, just depends upon how quickly you level up your skillset.

If this is really what you want to do then quit worrying about the short term pay cut. Let your employer know that you will need to have a second job if they are going to start you out at that wage, so you may not be available for overtime. 

Or don't. Just take the job and get going in a career you really want. 

I am an employer. I want someone that wants some skin in the game, wants to come to work, wants to learn (and by that I mean on my dime and theirs. The best guys on here educate themselves on their own dime on their own time, in addition to employer education), shows up everyday, and doesn't bring their drama to work.

Life is very very difficult, but it is manageable even on low pay. Remember, that low pay isn't forever. I think most unions start out at 50% of Jman wages, so if your area is in the $40 per hour range then you'll be at $20 per hour. Can you live off of that?


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

Man you have not even mounted a box yet? Pulled cables or anything. What do you expect.
I get it. It sucks. But you are making this choice.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Just remember that you have a lot of dues to pay first in this trade before you can expect decent pay. It's just the way that it is and it will take years especially if you live in a state like CT which has a 4 year apprenticeship and classroom requirement to get licensed. It's going to be a long haul but worth it in the end.


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## glen1971 (Oct 10, 2012)

Didn't you just ask if you were qualified enough? And now you want a raise? lol
https://www.electriciantalk.com/f2/am-i-already-qualified-enough-267616/


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

Wow...you got an apprenticeship? That's a great opportunity *that many never get*. Don't take it for granted!


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## Ctsparky93 (Sep 17, 2016)

It really sucks to start at a low wage but you have to over come the hard times for a better future. I started my apprentice ship at 15 but I had construction experience of 1/2 painting and 3 years carpentry. I knew how to use tools and basic knowledge of how stuff works too. My first job started at 7 which I got ****ed but the knowledge was priceless. It’s really hard to work with fresh apprentices. Most of the time it cost more to work with a apprentice. Because you need to teach them basic stuff. 


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## Ctsparky93 (Sep 17, 2016)

What part of ct are you in? 


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

Someone posted about apprentices in the UK starting at 15. I think that would be cool if kids could do that here.

Any reward first requires sacrifice. Just make the sacrifice and you will get the reward.


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## Ctsparky93 (Sep 17, 2016)

Soo mc Donald’s hires at 15. But electrical apprentices start at 10,11 and 12 sounds fair. 


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

JavoChav said:


> Is there any way I can negotiate the starting pay for an apprenticeship when I first begin?
> 
> I called a few companies and one said their starting rate was about $11/hr. *All realness I cannot afford to quit my current job that pays much more than that. I get paid lot more than 11/hr and even still living is a struggle and I work 2 jobs...11/hr is gonna kill me.*
> 
> *Im 27. I dont have much support from my family (family issues) and not many buddies that are actually supportive. Im single. What do I do? Whats your thoughts Advice?* Are all companies that low to start? I contacted IBEW but couldn't get much out them they basically blew me away when asked about apprenticeships.


Holy chit, you need a reality check son. Nobody gives a rats azz about your "family problems" and no one is going to pay for them except you.

My advice: Quit your whining, buck up and figure out for yourself how to make it happen. We all had to pay our dues.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

My take is a little different here, I sympathize with the OP to an extent. 

Without going off track here, I take it with a grain of salt when someone says they can't get by on less, a lot of times, it's that they don't know how to handle their money. Nobody *thinks* this is the problem, but think about it, they don't teach this in school. It may be as simple as this, you have to move and / or commute. You have to live out where rent is low and work where wages are high. Do you think the people working at shoe stores in Beverly Hills live in Beverly Hills? 

That said, it is possible the apprenticeships, especially the non-union apprenticeships, are not paying a living wage. Around here, a lot of people won't pay a living wage for green as grass kids, and they don't have to. The kids that work for them either live at home, or have a spouse or girlfriend paying the bulk of the bills, or etc. etc. etc. 

If someone hid a million dollars in gold under a rock in your back yard, would you go back there and turn over a couple rocks and if you didn't find it, give up? Of course not, you'd keep turning over rocks until you struck gold. 

Just keep trying. Try harder with the union. Try other trades. Apply at the power company and other utility companies. Around here, building controls would be the way to go, apply with all the big building control companies.

*YOU MUST
FIND A WAY
OR
MAKE ONE*


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## John M. (Oct 29, 2016)

Most of us could lower our living standards; dont eat out, wash your own clothes, etc. Try it, at least till your wage gets built up.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Ctsparky93 said:


> Soo mc Donald’s hires at 15. But electrical apprentices start at 10,11 and 12 sounds fair.


McDonalds only pays that because the government forces them to via minimum wage laws. It's not a fair comparison when you have the government instituting wage controls.


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## The_Modifier (Oct 24, 2009)

JavoChav said:


> Is there any way I can negotiate the starting pay for an apprenticeship when I first begin?


And once again, the plot thins......:vs_laugh::vs_laugh::vs_laugh:


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## JavoChav (Nov 4, 2018)

Switched said:


> You can try to negotiate, but you likely won't win.
> 
> Even at $11 an hour a company is going to be loosing money on you for a while, just depends upon how quickly you level up your skillset.
> 
> ...


I can live off of $20 an hour thats more than what i make now. But $11 hour is big no no. I have lots of important bills and assets to pay and costly health issues that $11/hr would ruin me.


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## JavoChav (Nov 4, 2018)

John M. said:


> Most of us could lower our living standards; dont eat out, wash your own clothes, etc. Try it, at least till your wage gets built up.


Im not a good cook or skillful at it lol


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## JavoChav (Nov 4, 2018)

flyboy said:


> JavoChav said:
> 
> 
> > Is there any way I can negotiate the starting pay for an apprenticeship when I first begin?
> ...


I been discovered all this lol. Just looking for advice/ideas. Not really whining. Just trying to find a solution.


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## JavoChav (Nov 4, 2018)

Ctsparky93 said:


> What part of ct are you in?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Hartford


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Switched said:


> You can try to negotiate, but you likely won't win.
> 
> *Even at $11 an hour a company is going to be loosing money on you for a while, just depends upon how quickly you level up your skillset.*
> 
> I


I have NEVER bought into this idea, if you use all labor and your JWs keep a helper/apprentice busy they should be a productive member of the company in a very short time frame.


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## JavoChav (Nov 4, 2018)

Bird dog said:


> Wow...you got an apprenticeship? That's a great opportunity *that many never get*. Don't take it for granted!


No i didn't. I was sending in resumes and calling around and got info from companies.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

JavoChav said:


> I can live off of $20 an hour thats more than what i make now. But $11 hour is big no no. I have lots of important bills and assets to pay and costly health issues that $11/hr would ruin me.


Well then, you have to find another career.

Think about all the people who PAY more than $11/hr for education in order to get a career. Getting paid $11/hr to learn a trade, obtain skills and experience, and become a great tradesmen is not so bad.


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## JavoChav (Nov 4, 2018)

MTW said:


> As an apprentice you're not worth more than that. You have a lot to learn and you actually cost the company money by slowing down the journeyman who have to train you. You might find a job offering $15 to start but that's about it if you're totally green. As for the IBEW, check with the local in your area but having once lived in CT and applied to the New Haven local, I can tell you you're not getting in unless you know someone. That being said, times may have changed and they are more open to accepting anyone due to the labor shortage.
> 
> But unlike dead end jobs that stay at $11 an hour, your pay progressively increases every year as your skill set expands.


Id be content starting out at $15/hr. $11 is just terrible.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

brian john said:


> I have NEVER bought into this idea, if you use all labor and your JWs keep a helper/apprentice busy they should be a productive member of the company in a very short time frame.


A beginner 1st year is not going to be anywhere near as productive as a 3rd year. He is also going to require more instruction and supervision from the JW's.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

HackWork said:


> A beginner 1st year is not going to be anywhere near as productive as a 3rd year. He is also going to require more instruction and supervision from the JW's.


So he does 11.00 an hour worth of work.


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

JavoChav said:


> Id be content starting out at $15/hr. $11 is just terrible.


Borrow $8000, that will make up the difference to get you through the first year, by then you should be making more per hour

How's that sound compared to average student loan debt of almost $40,000?:wink:


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

JavoChav said:


> Im not a good cook or skillful at it lol


Red flag. :surprise:


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

readydave8 said:


> Borrow $8000, that will make up the difference to get you through the first year, by then you should be making more per hour
> 
> How's that sound compared to average student loan debt of almost $40,000?:wink:


I am not loaning him $40,000, or even $8,000


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

brian john said:


> So he does 11.00 an hour worth of work.


Maybe, maybe not. 

Maybe his work output doesn't cover the total labor burden he puts on the company. His wage might be a bit lower, but his body being there causes the company to have to spend the same on liability insurance, worker's comp, health insurance, unemployment, etc. etc.


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

I lived with 3 roommates and paid $300 a month in rent when I started at $9.00 an hour 11 years ago. I drove an '87 accord. It was still carbureted. Gas was hitting $4 a gallon.

Granted I was young and single and lived on a friend of a friends couch for about a month. I know it's not easy if you have a family and obligations, but there are ways if you have the will and grit.

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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

HackWork said:


> A beginner 1st year is not going to be anywhere near as productive as a 3rd year. He is also going to require more instruction and supervision from the JW's.





brian john said:


> So he does 11.00 an hour worth of work.


Think about this. That's $88.00 of wages. Let's double that, say $176.00 all in cost. I don't want to break even, I want to make money, so let's say I want $300 for what the kid does each day. 

I have to either get him to do $300 of billable work per day 

or, 

get him to do work that let's someone else be $300 more productive than they would without him, 

ON AVERAGE. 

Let's assume he's physically fit, down to work, not a moron, and not a head case. 

If have a lot of work and there's always simple stuff to do, it's really easy. 

Digging a ditch? I could get that out of him no problem. 

Gopher work - unloading, transporting material around a big job site, etc. - pretty easy for him to save four senior guys half an hour apiece, that ought to cover $300.00. 

Actually learning something on the job comes AFTER he earns his wages. 

If you have the kid just basically following one guy around, getting him coffee and wiping his butt, yeah no **** it's going to be very hard to his wages out of him, you basically gave the senior guy an $11 an hour raise and added a kid to his health care. Having a manservant won't make that guy much more productive.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

I dunno, I think first year rate should at least relate to minimum wage and be a little higher than minimum. The good thing is that wage goes up every year. I lived with my parents on and off as a first year. By fourth year, I bought my own house (it was a shack but it did have my name on it).


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

Get a second job on the weekend, so, you don't come dragging yourself in everyday.

btw some of people have had to work a second job most of their lives.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Bird dog said:


> Get a second job on the weekend, so, you don't come dragging yourself in everyday.
> 
> btw some of people have had to work a second job most of their lives.


I got a part time job at a work wear store when I apprenticed. I sold a lot of work boots for those guys  .


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

readydave8 said:


> Borrow $8000, that will make up the difference to get you through the first year, by then you should be making more per hour
> 
> How's that sound compared to average student loan debt of almost $40,000?:wink:


8000 x 5 years apprentice=40,000


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## tjb (Feb 12, 2014)

I worked 40h/wk in the trade, 25h/wk at a part-time, went to school, and had a family. It sucked. But it wasn’t forever. And I’d do it again in a heartbeat.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

tjb said:


> I worked 40h/wk in the trade, 25h/wk at a part-time, went to school, and had a family. It sucked. But it wasn’t forever. And I’d do it again in a heartbeat.


Life can be tough but folks like you prove to the naysayers that say you can't make it in today's economy that working hard pays off.:vs_clap::vs_stars:


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## WPNortheast (Jun 4, 2017)

Also in ct, started at 9 bucks about 12 years ago. Best advice i can give is hustle your tail off at the job and learn as much as possible off hours by reading/videos, find someone licensed that needs side job help and help nights and weekends, keep your eyes on the prize and stick it out your future self will thank you.


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## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

brian john said:


> 8000 x 5 years apprentice=40,000


I think borrowing the money is a novel idea actually... the problem with that I think is that while the OP would need less every year, he would still need to cover off the interest on the money; now you are getting into the credit card game...

He would have to borrow enough to cover the payments and interest for the first year to realize the full $8K, while in year to and on, he would need to borrow less to cover the delta, he would still need more to cover the payments and interests accumulated in the following on years and thus the circle (cycle?) of debt. It might take him 10 years to pay that off if all he looks at is working for the paycheck only.

Cheers
John


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## cdslotz (Jun 10, 2008)

I had my Masters and started business when I was 27


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## tjb (Feb 12, 2014)

WPNortheast said:


> Also in ct, started at 9 bucks about 12 years ago. Best advice i can give is hustle your tail off at the job and learn as much as possible off hours by reading/videos, find someone licensed that needs side job help and help nights and weekends, keep your eyes on the prize and stick it out your future self will thank you.



Good advice. QFT.


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## Signal1 (Feb 10, 2016)

cdslotz said:


> I had my Masters and started business when I was 27


Same


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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

My advice? You need to keep things in perspective.

You may only be starting at $11/hr, but you aren't going to have any college loan payments to make at the same time like most other folks.

When I started, we found a way to make it work. At the time, my ex-wife and I moved 270 miles across Oregon, had a new baby and I started this apprenticeship all in a span of 2 weeks. This all happened 14 years ago, at $8.75/hr taking home $300/week.

So, how bad do you want it?


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## The_Modifier (Oct 24, 2009)

flyboy said:


> Holy chit, you need a reality check son. Nobody gives a rats azz about your "family problems" and no one is going to pay for them except you.
> 
> My advice: Quit your whining, buck up and figure out for yourself how to make it happen. We all had to pay our dues.


Well said!
:vs_cool:


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## The_Modifier (Oct 24, 2009)

JavoChav said:


> I have lots of important bills and assets to pay and costly health issues that $11/hr would ruin me.


And how is that the employers or even the worlds responsibility? Like many have said here and we have all learned ourselves, the world doesn't care about your problems! If you really want it, then make the sacrifices like *WE ALL DID*.

You're not as special as your parents have told you. Sure the world is tough and the old saying survival of the fittest IS STILL TRUE.:vs_cool:

We have all done without, had to give up stuff, and not cried the blues about an $11/hr start wage.

It's time to grow up and find out what life is really about.:vs_unimpressed:


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## armsjac (Dec 12, 2017)

I did it with part time jobs. First when starting out and again after an expensive divorce. You gotta do what you gotta do. It's worth it to have a job which is not moving to Mexico nor being taken away by low wage, um, workers.


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

any decent company would start at more than that in your area


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Wiresmith said:


> any decent company would start at more than that in your area


No, not necessarily. 

A decent company might actually start lower, but offer a better training program. And they might have larger wage and benefit increases for those apprentices who do well in the training and stick it out.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

JavoChav said:


> Ctsparky93 said:
> 
> 
> > What part of ct are you in?
> ...


What is the minimum wage in your area?

Cost of living is different everywhere but Here minimum wage is 14$ Canadian which is $10.50 in US. Just sayin.


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

brian john said:


> 8000 x 5 years apprentice=40,000


yeah I was talking about the 1st year to get over hump, thinking he'd make himself so valuable that he would get a nice raise!

but really I like the 2nd job idea better, that's what I did when I had to


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

Navyguy said:


> I think borrowing the money is a novel idea actually... the problem with that I think is that while the OP would need less every year, he would still need to cover off the interest on the money; now you are getting into the credit card game...
> 
> He would have to borrow enough to cover the payments and interest for the first year to realize the full $8K, while in year to and on, he would need to borrow less to cover the delta, he would still need more to cover the payments and interests accumulated in the following on years and thus the circle (cycle?) of debt. It might take him 10 years to pay that off if all he looks at is working for the paycheck only.
> 
> ...


I don't think he should borrow the money, but was trying to put financial situation in perspective!:wink:


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## farmantenna (Nov 22, 2012)

Ctsparky93 said:


> Soo mc Donald’s hires at 15. But electrical apprentices start at 10,11 and 12 sounds fair.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


that's what's screwed up about this "working wage crap". you have unskilled people demanding and getting better pay than skilled apprentices


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## farmantenna (Nov 22, 2012)

I think my company starts apprentices crazy low but some who have basic mechanical skills can get more. 
I've witnessed many apprentices who were good workers and learning well but just couldn't continue at the low starting wage and just disappear.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

farmantenna said:


> I think my company starts apprentices crazy low but some who have basic mechanical skills can get more.
> I've witnessed many apprentices who were good workers and learning well but just couldn't continue at the low starting wage and just disappear.


If they were good prospects worked hard, were advancing and your company needed the help than management was foolish.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

brian john said:


> If they were good prospects worked hard, were advancing and your company needed the help than management was foolish.


Let's be honest here... Managment is typically foolish. 

Union management = Foolish
Merit shop management = Foolish
Government management = Extremely Foolish with a side of more foolishness

Bean counters and idiots typically run things and we all know it. I would like to think that small shops would be less likely to be stupid like that, but I think they probably are just as dumb.

The world as we know it is built on short term gains not long term prospects and investments. Another reason our labor problem is the way it is.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

One of the reasons our trade tries to hire young is illustrated here.

Older guys pick up cash flow drains that they can't walk away from.

( Those kids pick up speed in a hurry. )

BTW, his health complications smell like carpal tunnel.

If so, he should not attempt to become an electrician.

Really.

We have our own repetitive motion 'issues.'

If he's got CAD down pat... he ought to consider being an ESTIMATOR.


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## R Electrician (Nov 20, 2007)

I stared around the same rate, it sucks but doable. Get some room mates to split the rent, get a car with no payments. It's not easy teaching someone a skilled trade, I have done it many times and it's very time consuming. You are basically a gopher and ditch digger at first.


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## Unionpride277 (Oct 31, 2018)

JavoChav said:


> Is there any way I can negotiate the starting pay for an apprenticeship when I first begin?
> 
> I called a few companies and one said their starting rate was about $11/hr. All realness I cannot afford to quit my current job that pays much more than that. I get paid lot more than 11/hr and even still living is a struggle and I work 2 jobs...11/hr is gonna kill me.
> 
> Im 27. I dont have much support from my family (family issues) and not many buddies that are actually supportive. Im single. What do I do? Whats your thoughts Advice? Are all companies that low to start? I contacted IBEW but couldn't get much out them they basically blew me away when asked about apprenticeships.


I was 30 when I first got into the ibew . I had 5 years non union experience and was making 25 ph .

I went from 25 ph non union to 12 ph first year apprentice in the union .

I blew through 12 k in order to pay bills etc and I’m in financial dept.

But soon I will be making 52 ph plus benies total package around 75ph.

It was the hardest thing I had to go through but it was worth it times ten.

You have to decide in a few years will my life be better if I make this decision to back track .

In my case I’m glad I did it and wouldn’t change a thing , I’m proud I pushed through it and survived , and now my future is brighter than if I stayed at my comfort of 25ph .


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## bostonPedro (Nov 14, 2017)

You can work electrical and still have a part time job. I have worked with several apprentices who have done so and I am in a union and they start at $20 plus an hour. For various reasons usually the biggest being that they are older and have more responsibility ie they have kids they keep part time jobs for a year or 2. 
You mentioned you cant cook to cut costs.....well go buy a cook book and learn.
You mentioned medical issues......well electrical companies offer healthcare benefits at least the ones on the up and up so what the hell are you talking about? 
Either become an apprentice and have a part time job also if you need to or keep doing what you are doing because the world doesn't stop spinning for anyone in other words either man up and make the short term sacrifice or stfu the choice is all yours.


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## Unionpride277 (Oct 31, 2018)

Wiresmith said:


> any decent company would start at more than that in your area


Local 3ny 12$ ph 1st year
Local 363 ny 12 ph 1st year 
Local 164 nj15 ph

That is around the starting union rate for the northeast .

I started non union nj at 13.00

Sounds close to what their offering


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Unionpride277 said:


> Local 3ny 12$ ph 1st year
> Local 363 ny 12 ph 1st year
> Local 164 nj15 ph
> 
> ...


Where are you getting those numbers from? I spent over half of my career working in 164 territory as they are our sister local and I am pretty sure that their apprentice rates were the same 40%, 50%, 60%, 70%, and 80% that our's were. 40% of $54.40 is $21.76.


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## Unionpride277 (Oct 31, 2018)

HackWork said:


> Unionpride277 said:
> 
> 
> > Local 3ny 12$ ph 1st year
> ...


This is directly from 164 website and I know men in the program .

As far as 363 I’m 100% shure that’s the correct number aswell .

.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Unionpride277 said:


> This is directly from 164 website and I know men in the program .
> 
> As far as 363 I’m 100% shure that’s the correct number aswell .
> 
> .


I guess it changed.

And I am glad. Starting someone at $22/hr is a sure way to get people who just want a good paying job at the time and who are less likely to stick it out.


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## Unionpride277 (Oct 31, 2018)

HackWork said:


> Unionpride277 said:
> 
> 
> > This is directly from 164 website and I know men in the program .
> ...



That’s exactly why they changed it they want to see who really wants it


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## Unionpride277 (Oct 31, 2018)

Ctsparky93 said:


> What part of ct are you in?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I was born and raised in new haven county . I moved to nj in 2011 Bc their was no work at all .

How is the economy in ct as of now and in the near future.

Do you know about the locals in ct at all ?


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## Unionpride277 (Oct 31, 2018)

JavoChav said:


> Ctsparky93 said:
> 
> 
> > What part of ct are you in?
> ...


Try local 90 new haven 
Or 488 Bridgeport


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

Unionpride277 said:


> Local 3ny 12$ ph 1st year
> Local 363 ny 12 ph 1st year
> Local 164 nj15 ph
> 
> ...


i stand by my statement, "any decent company would start at more than that in your area".


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Wiresmith said:


> i stand by my statement, "any decent company would start at more than that in your area".


There are many, many excellent companies who start 1st year apprentices at that rate.

Your blanket statement is hyperbole at best. As I mentioned earlier:



> A decent company might actually start lower, but offer a better training program. And they might have larger wage and benefit increases for those apprentices who do well in the training and stick it out.


Also, the post you were replying to listed the union rates in an area in which the unions have a high marketshare. To say that all of those companies are less than "decent" just because they start apprentices at the contracted rate is silly.


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

HackWork said:


> There are many, many excellent companies who start 1st year apprentices at that rate.
> 
> Your blanket statement is hyperbole at best. As I mentioned earlier:
> 
> ...


it's my opinion, i don't think anyone would take what i said as me trying to state that as a fact.


as far as those other locals, i don't see direct correlation to them being/having good employers and having good market-share

i know at least one of those locals, i have met an ex business managers assistant that now works for the international who brazenly brags they have the city council members in the bag for building permits and the council declines permits for using non-union. so yeah, i don't see the correlation.

to me, in that area that wage is too low for that job. that's one of the boxes on my personal checklist of whether the contractor is decent. its a purely subjective statement and i don't see how anyone would try to take it another way. you disagree with me, i respect that and take it into consideration but my opinion has not changed.

as you can guess i don't subscribe to the logic of low starting pay to weed out people that don't care enough to be there. why not just weed out people based on their actual performance and their interview? the logic is nonsensical, you say they should want the job because they will make so much money, then you say we want people to start low so we know they are not there for the money.???? i guess we should lower jiw wages too, that way we know no-one is there for the money. as far as i'm concerned, they are my brothers, i want them to make a fair wage, i think the fair wage is higher, again purely my opinion, i don't know why i'm not allowed to have one.

my question above is rhetorical, i don't care what you think on the subject.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Wiresmith said:


> as you can guess i don't subscribe to the logic of low starting pay to weed out people that don't care enough to be there. why not just weed out people based on their actual performance and there interview?


 Because a person can lie during their interview. And by the time you have a clear scope of their performance, it is too late. Also, even if they perform well, that does not mean that they are going to stick it out- finish the apprenticeship, become electrician, and continue to work in the field.

Every person that takes a spot is taking it from someone else. Having a $20+ starting rate means you will get a lot of people who just want a good paying job at the time, and don't want to be electrician. Bringing apprentices in is an investment in them, and it's smart to invest in those who plan on being electrician instead of those who want to do something else but just need a good paycheck for a year or so.



> the logic is nonsensical, you say they should want the job because they will make so much money,


 I never said that. I said that they should want the job because they want to become electrician.



> then you say we want people to start low so we know they are not there for the money.???? i guess we should lower jiw wages too, that way we know no-one is there for the money.


 For a second I thought you were serious, but then I remembered you are that troll who had to have his name changed to escape your own reputation. Carry on...


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

HackWork said:


> For a second I thought you were serious, but then I remembered you are that troll who had to have his name changed to escape your own reputation. Carry on...


i'm a nobody on here and was when i changed my username, your the only one that knows me (because we disagree on about everything), i didn't have anything to escape except username i didn't like (hd13), i like wiresmith better. i still argue my same arguments on here that you are referring to. those old threads your referring to also carry the new username.

we disagree on this, no surprise. but it's just that, we just disagree. my view doesn't make sense to you, your view doesn't make sense to me. the world still goes round. yes i'm lazy about not adding "i think" or "my opinion" to my statements on here, i will work on that. thanks for your opinion, i honestly take it into consideration.


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## Wiredmikey (Jun 30, 2018)

I'm actually surprised at 11 bucks an hour. CT has some of the more stringent requirements to get your J man's license, and some portions of Connecticut are so expensive that even well paid electricians have difficulty meeting all of their expenses. I'm in Hartford County Connecticut and have been there for quite a few years. Before that I was in Fairfield County, more specifically Greenwich one of the most expensive areas to live in the country so believe me I know. All Things Considered most first-year apprentices with zero electrical experience start out at around 14 to 16 bucks an hour


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

Wiredmikey said:


> I'm actually surprised at 11 bucks an hour... I'm in Hartford County Connecticut ..... All Things Considered most first-year apprentices with zero electrical experience start out at around 14 to 16 bucks an hour


edited: shortened quote

14-16 sounds more like it(the bottom) to me. some people that make $45 an hour have trouble understanding the difference a few dollars an hour make to others.


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## Gilbert Lucero (9 mo ago)

John Valdes said:


> Man you have not even mounted a box yet? Pulled cables or anything. What do you expect.
> I get it. It sucks. But you are making this choice.


In ancient times apprentices didn't receive any pay,the Master tradesman would give you a bed to sleep in and feed you. Just remember that you are receiving a free education No student loans to pay off.


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## MotoGP1199 (Aug 11, 2014)

Gilbert Lucero said:


> In ancient times apprentices didn't receive any pay,the Master tradesman would give you a bed to sleep in and feed you. Just remember that you are receiving a free education No student loans to pay off.


Eventhough this thread is over 3 years old. That is a good point.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Yes, Let’s harken back to ancient times and reflect on how bad they were so long ago, so that we don’t have to address the current pressing issue… And can shut up, shut down, and marginalize The people that are being exploited…




Gilbert Lucero said:


> In ancient times apprentices didn't receive any pay,the Master tradesman would give you a bed to sleep in and feed you. Just remember that you are receiving a free education No student loans to pay off.





MotoGP1199 said:


> Eventhough this thread is over 3 years old. That is a good point.


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## Gilbert Lucero (9 mo ago)

LGLS said:


> Yes, Let’s harken back to ancient times and reflect on how bad they were so long ago, so that we don’t have to address the current pressing issue… And can shut up, shut down, and marginalize The people that are being exploited…


You must be referring to the kids in college.


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## Wardenclyffe (Jan 11, 2019)

Prevalence within Africa
*On any given day in 2016, an estimated 9.2 million men, women, and children were living in modern slavery in Africa*. The region has the highest rate of prevalence, with 7.6 people living in modern slavery for every 1,000 people in the region.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

When I started in the trade the pay was, a roof over my head, three meals a day plus between meal snacks, and gas in my truck when I bought it. I started working for the family business at the age of 14.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Wardenclyffe said:


> Prevalence within Africa
> *On any given day in 2016, an estimated 9.2 million men, women, and children were living in modern slavery in Africa*. The region has the highest rate of prevalence, with 7.6 people living in modern slavery for every 1,000 people in the region.


What about China where University means a labor camp?


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## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

There is only one job you start at the top, grave digging.

Now there is exploitative pay, minimum wage and living wage. I keep my new hires at a living wage, which is about $3 CAD more an hour then minimum wage, but they sit there for years because they are well above the % to journeymen wage grid. Most won't see a pay raise until year four because of my decision to be a Living Wage employer. If I followed the % wage grid, most apprentices would make less then minimum wage starting out which right now is about $15.50 CAD. According to the grid, a first year apprentice should be making somewhere about $12-$14 CAD, which is below minimum wage.

The living wages for regions in Ontario can be researched here: Living wage by region where I am the is is currently $18.90 CAD per hour.

Cheers
John


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Navyguy said:


> There is only one job you start at the top, grave digging.
> 
> Now there is exploitative pay, minimum wage and living wage. I keep my new hires at a living wage, which is about $3 CAD more an hour then minimum wage, but they sit there for years because they are well above the % to journeymen wage grid. Most won't see a pay raise until year four because of my decision to be a Living Wage employer. If I followed the % wage grid, *most apprentices would make less then minimum wage starting* out which right now is about $15.50 CAD. According to the grid, a first year apprentice should be making somewhere about $12-$14 CAD, which is below minimum wage.
> 
> ...


How could an apprentice earn less than minimum wage?


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## u2slow (Jan 2, 2014)

IME, larger employers and unions can be really steadfast in their apprentice wage structure. Take it or leave it. There may be further loop-holes about training wages, where they can be lower than minimum-wage.


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## BleedingLungsMurphy (10 mo ago)

Navyguy said:


> Most won't see a pay raise until year four because of my decision to be a Living Wage employer.


You sound like a clown. Over 10 years ago I started at $17 and was up to $22 by second year. If you don't get $1-3 raises every 6 months as an apprentice your employer is ripping you off.



u2slow said:


> IME, larger employers and unions can be really steadfast in their apprentice wage structure. Take it or leave it.


I disagree. Large companies will do pay reviews every 6 months and after schooling so apprentice pay will stay in line with regulations because they know they will get sued. Small companies will lie and take advantage of apprentices and most of them never get caught, unfortunately.


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## MotoGP1199 (Aug 11, 2014)

BleedingLungsMurphy said:


> You sound like a clown. Over 10 years ago I started at $17 and was up to $22 by second year. If you don't get $1-3 raises every 6 months as an apprentice your employer is ripping you off.


 What is the incentive to learn and do a better job if you get automatic raises every 6 months? 

What's your incentive to work hard if you're getting the same raise as the guy next to you who shows up and does the bare minimum? 

At what point does this turn into a toxic bureaucracy that can't get out of its own way?


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

u2slow said:


> IME, larger employers and unions can be really steadfast in their apprentice wage structure. Take it or leave it. There may be further loop-holes about training wages, where they can be lower than minimum-wage.


Well I don’t know how Canadian minimum wage is work, but in the United States of America, nobody including an apprentice can get paid less than the states minimum set wage. There are lower than normal minimum wages for some restaurant and tipped workers but other than that no exceptions that I’m aware of.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

MotoGP1199 said:


> What is the incentive to learn and do a better job if you get automatic raises every 6 months?
> 
> What's your incentive to work hard if you're getting the same raise as the guy next to you who shows up and does the bare minimum?


Human individuality. Some people want to succeed more than others. Some people have more energy than others. Some people are just naturally quicker than others. Other people are good at some things and not so good at other things.

But one thing that apprentices do learn is this - the carrot on a stick approach to being the best that you can be and that will let you succeed more is a lie. 

There is only room with the top for a few people, and if everyone is scratching and crawling to get there and putting more than 100% into their job, they are only lying to themselves...



> At what point does this turn into a toxic bureaucracy that can't get out of its own way?


 I’ve only ever encountered a couple of toxic bureaucracies in my career. They were both in nonunion shops. Every union shop I worked in was run like a tight ship. But then again union shops are owned and operated by very good electricians who are also happen to be extremely good businessman. Nonunion shops on the other hand, I mostly run by nonunion electricians who discovered that by the time they were ready, there were no top paying positions available for them in their sector Dash that the only people making money with the shop owners. This is why nonunion shops are rife with often times only helpers, or “junior mechanics.“

The number of times I’ve heard members of this board claim they were running work when they were in their second year or third year is proof of this – and it’s laughable. We just had a post thread that started last week with one such individual.


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## u2slow (Jan 2, 2014)

LGLS said:


> Well I don’t know how Canadian minimum wage is work


Well, each province sets their own; with loopholes for training wages, among other things.


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## u2slow (Jan 2, 2014)

BleedingLungsMurphy said:


> I disagree. Large companies will do pay reviews every 6 months and after schooling so apprentice pay will stay in line with regulations because they know they will get sued. Small companies will lie and take advantage of apprentices and most of them never get caught, unfortunately.


What I mean is the tiered-wage regulations for apprentices has fallen behind. The large employers and unions (in my experience) follow it and like it. Sure, some small companies can try and low-ball further. I wish them well. Lol


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## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

BleedingLungsMurphy said:


> You sound like a clown. Over 10 years ago I started at $17 and was up to $22 by second year. If you don't get $1-3 raises every 6 months as an apprentice your employer is ripping you off.


Well I must be a pretty good one, because I am one of the better paying companies in the area and my people are happy - extremely little turnover.

Can I borrow your red nose and oversized shoes please? I already have a squeaky horn I stole of the little girl's tricycle next door.

Cheers
John


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

You low paid apprentices should have supplanted your pay the same way I did. Second job as night watchman at Waimea Falls Park (sundown to sunup) (allowed to sleep all night as perk) (they just wanted a warm body in the park at nights to keep the owner happy) and grower of certain plants way up at the top of the valley, that held some value to some people maybe perhaps , at least that is what I was told. ...............


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## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

Now to be fair for @BleedingLungsMurphy we have a similar schedule in Ontario.
Ours is regulation 1051 of the TQAA and each period of employment is 1800 hours (9000 / 5 = 1800). Not that I feel I have to justify, in fact I think my company is ahead of the curve compared to others in my area…



“TQAA 1051” said:


> Section 7. (1)
> The rate of wages for an apprentice in the certified trade whether for regular daily hours of work or for hours of work in excess of regular daily hours of work shall not be less than,
> (a) 40 per cent during the first period;
> (b) 50 per cent during the second period;
> ...


So if you average hour wage for a journeyman is $32 CAD per hour (which is about average for around here and the provincial minimum wage is $15.50 CAD per hour the schedule would look like

40% = $12.80 CAD
50% = $16.00 CAD
60% = $19.20 CAD
70% = $22.40 CAD
80% = $25.60 CAD

So when I hire an apprentice at a Living Wage (currently at $18.90) to start out with, they are both beyond the minimum wage and approaching the third year level (in fact I actually pay more then that). I did just however give everybody a raise of $2 across the board because of the high inflation here. A kid just walking in off the street would make slightly north of $20 CAD an hour… like I said in my original post, pretty close to their fourth year…

Our wages still cannot compete with the big city wages, and are considered high for my area. The issue is that the market will not bear more then that in my area. I would be happy to pay my guys $100 or $1000 per hour… does not matter to me since it is a direct cost to the customer. The only thing that matters is what the customer is willing pay for work in my area, if I am too high then nobody will have anything because they will be sitting at home. We have a substantial competition with trunk-slammers in the area and the average homeowner is oblivious to the situation. I lost count of how many guys I see running around with sandals and rolls of 14/2 on Saturdays and Sundays… They are working for less then what it costs to start my truck.

Cheers
John


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## CAUSA (Apr 3, 2013)

MotoGP1199 said:


> What is the incentive to learn and do a better job if you get automatic raises every 6 months?
> 
> What's your incentive to work hard if you're getting the same raise as the guy next to you who shows up and does the bare minimum?
> 
> At what point does this turn into a toxic bureaucracy that can't get out of its own way?


The apprentice has to pass the schooling and have the hours to get the wage increase.

The legislation shown, is for a given standard to follow. For all provincial training and employers obligations.


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## MotoGP1199 (Aug 11, 2014)

CAUSA said:


> The apprentice has to pass the schooling and have the hours to get the wage increase.
> 
> The legislation shown, is for a given standard to follow. For all provincial training and employers obligations.


What's the incentive to go above the minimum and also not milk the job for more hours?


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## Slay301 (Apr 23, 2018)

Navyguy said:


> Now to be fair for @BleedingLungsMurphy we have a similar schedule in Ontario.
> Ours is regulation 1051 of the TQAA and each period of employment is 1800 hours (9000 / 5 = 1800). Not that I feel I have to justify, in fact I think my company is ahead of the curve compared to others in my area…
> 
> 
> ...


Wait I thought the non union are the trunk slammers ??? Now I’m confused 🤔 🤣 it’s okay I put a smiley face


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## CAUSA (Apr 3, 2013)

MotoGP1199 said:


> What's the incentive to go above the minimum and also not milk the job for more hours?


That it the true question.

As for, to go above minimum:

Zone of area and classification of work scope.

commercial versus industrial work scope, pays more than residential.

for hrs of learning. This is calculated as hrs payed. Does not include OT and some provinces have a maximum per year that can be credited.

that Includes shop work, part runs and maintenance calls.

The lead Forman need to keep a handle of the crew for proper hrs of productively.


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## BleedingLungsMurphy (10 mo ago)

Navyguy said:


> So if you average hour wage for a journeyman is $32 CAD per hour


I don't know a single journeyman working for only $32 an hour. You aren't paying a living wage. You're exploiting apprentices while patting yourself on the back. Oh look, I found your source from IBEW Ontario - $40 journeyman rate.


MotoGP1199 said:


> What is the incentive to learn and do a better job if you get automatic raises every 6 months?


You get a raise or you get fired. Seems to work pretty well.


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## Slay301 (Apr 23, 2018)

BleedingLungsMurphy said:


> I don't know a single journeyman working for only $32 an hour. You aren't paying a living wage. You're exploiting apprentices while patting yourself on the back. Oh look, I found your source from IBEW Ontario - $40 journeyman rate.
> 
> You get a raise or you get fired. Seems to work pretty well.
> View attachment 164918


Sounds like he may be violating the prevailing wage laws he said he followed in a different thread ?? That’s crazy. United you bargin. Divided you beg. Maybe a organizer should pay them a visit. Definition of ratty AS F 🤣 (I put a smiley face so I’m only kidding)


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## MotoGP1199 (Aug 11, 2014)

Slay301 said:


> Playful to some… not needed to others how about we moderate the forums. Because I’m feeling disenfranchised I will send a formal complaint to vertical scope instead since the mods are unwilling





Slay301 said:


> Sounds like he may be violating the prevailing wage laws he said he followed in a different thread ?? That’s crazy. United you bargin. Divided you beg. Maybe a organizer should pay them a visit.Definition of ratty AS F 🤣 (I put a smiley face so I’m only kidding)


Prevailing wage is a minimum for public works jobs, if you pay above it there's no violation. Not sure if you're referring to me or to navy. I don't know how it works in Canada.

If you're talking to me I don't want to say too much, as I'm not sure if you have a coloring book and a Union rep nearby. I wouldn't want to make you feel disenfranchised.

I tried to let it go but you have brought it up 3 times since the mods asked us to be civil. I'm done, you can fight with a wall now.


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## Slay301 (Apr 23, 2018)

MotoGP1199 said:


> Prevailing wage is a minimum for public works jobs, if you pay above it there's no violation. Not sure if you're referring to me or to navy. I don't know how it works in Canada.
> 
> If you're talking to me I don't want to say too much, as I'm not sure if you have a coloring book and a Union rep nearby. I wouldn't want to make you feel disenfranchised.
> 
> I tried to let it go but you have brought it up 3 times since the mods asked us to be civil. I'm done, you can fight with a wall now.


I wasn’t fighting I was ribbing. Itwas never stated public works or regular job it was stated I pay the same as you but don’t pay dues


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## Slay301 (Apr 23, 2018)

Don’t sound so triggered bro it’s just a joke


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

MotoGP1199 said:


> What's the incentive to go above the minimum and also not milk the job for more hours?


How can every apprentice go above the average minimum? How is that even possible mathematically? If each apprentice goes above and beyond then they’ve established entire new bar, and then they were all right back where they started.

Why is it do you think an apprentice, or anyone even a journeyman should go “above and beyond?“ What is it they have to go above and beyond? Everyone else? Is everybody supposed to stand apart and rise above everyone in order to find success?

You see this is the BS carrot on a stick that the nonunion shops promote – the impossible dream. And the supposition is simple: only the best of the best, the suck ups, and the well-connected and the relatives are ever going to get anywhere and everyone else can just take a hike and consider themselves dismal failures and accept the crap wages and zero benefits no promotion raises and for sure… no pension.


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## Slay301 (Apr 23, 2018)

Speaking of pensions I’m on track to have 1.5million in mine by 60 years old all employer contributed. And another 300k I put in a 401k. $46 a hour on the check and no mythical carrot to chase. Just 8 honest hours of work for 8 hours of pay.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Slay301 said:


> Speaking of pensions I’m on track to have 1.5million in mine by 60 years old all employer contributed. And another 300k I put in a 401k. $46 a hour on the check and no mythical carrot to chase. Just 8 honest hours of work for 8 hours of pay.


 I’m Less than $100 shy of exactly 1,000,000 when I stopped working.


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## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

BleedingLungsMurphy said:


> I don't know a single journeyman working for only $32 an hour. You aren't paying a living wage. You're exploiting apprentices while patting yourself on the back. Oh look, I found your source from IBEW Ontario - $40 journeyman rate.


Well you really have no clue, but that is OK. Actually my source is Law Document English View but it is the same exact wording... and perhaps where you live / work nobody is getting less than $40, but around here much more than $37 is rare. Maybe that will change in the next year or so, who knows. Like I said earlier I could care less what I pay my crews as it is a direct cost to the customer, but if I don't have any customers, my crews don't have any income either.

My crews are happy, they do quality work, I have very little turnover and plenty of work for them; I guess if I am exploiting them I am super good at it. Maybe I should start teaching how to apply Stockholm Syndrome to other LECs... eventually we can get the crews to work for free and purchase our materials for us LOL!

Cheers
John


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## Slay301 (Apr 23, 2018)

LGLS said:


> I’m Less than $100 shy of exactly 1,000,000 when I stopped working.


Not bad for early 50s. Unfortunately I have 3 daughters bleeding me dry lmao


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## Vladaar (Mar 9, 2021)

If someone you never met called you the owner on the phone and asked what you paid zero experience guys wouldn't you be inclined to low-ball?

How about making a resume showing up at the business meeting the owner and looking them in the eye when you shake their hands. Tell them of possibly what experience you might have in interview that might have them kicking it up a dollar?

LoL I got drawn into a 3 year old started discussion.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Vladaar said:


> LoL I got drawn into a 3 year old started discussion.


This conversation is a lot older than three years!


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## Wardenclyffe (Jan 11, 2019)

Discussion Starter · #1 · Dec 7, 2018 

It's 3 1/2 years old,...


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## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

Wardenclyffe said:


> Discussion Starter · #1 · Dec 7, 2018
> 
> It's 3 1/2 years old,...


I don't think that is what he meant... Kinda like ground pin up or down... I could start that thread now, but that discussion has been going on a lot longer...

Cheers
John


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Navyguy said:


> I don't think that is what he meant... Kinda like ground pin up or down... I could start that thread now, but that discussion has been going on a lot longer...
> 
> Cheers
> John


John, Wardenclyffe is aware of that, likely- but has this deep-seated need to try and negate every post I put up on this message board and I find it absolutely hilarious how I am living so rent free in his head!


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## u2slow (Jan 2, 2014)

Navyguy said:


> Now to be fair for @BleedingLungsMurphy we have a similar schedule in Ontario.
> Ours is regulation 1051 of the TQAA and each period of employment is 1800 hours (9000 / 5 = 1800). Not that I feel I have to justify, in fact I think my company is ahead of the curve compared to others in my area…
> 
> 
> ...


Just for contrast, I've attached a buddy's union contract for what HD mechanic (and other trades) make. Chronic worker shortage - nobody wants to move 300km away from their Costco. My main obstacles to taking a job there are - more days/year worked, and no pension.










My own job starts at $29/hour. Quite a bit higher than a construction-based apprenticeship. However, there's no pay bump until you get fully certified/licensed as a marine engineer.


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## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

u2slow said:


> Just for contrast, I've attached a buddy's union contract for what HD mechanic (and other trades) make. Chronic worker shortage - nobody wants to move 300km away from their Costco. My main obstacles to taking a job there are - more days/year worked, and no pension.


I think that is a great example (although not a true comparison)... sure there are lots of jobs out there that pay more... when I was working up in @joe-nwt area in the early 2000's gas was already a $1.20 per litre and you got paid $60 an hour because you had to make a full years wage in 4-6 months... but you had to fly up there, fly back and sometimes although not every time you had to try to find a place to live temporarily.

These camp / remote jobs are the same too, they pay you higher wages to offset the quality of life you are giving up. In the south we compensate with a daily per diem and incidentals pay, shift premiums and other items.

If you are a regular 8-4 worker and sleep in your own bed every night I don't think there is an expectation of that sort of money.

Cheers
John


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## u2slow (Jan 2, 2014)

Navyguy said:


> If you are a regular 8-4 worker and sleep in your own bed every night I don't think there is an expectation of that sort of money.


It's not a camp job. It's mon-fri, 8-9 hour days. Day shift and afternoon shift. There's an afternoon shift premium and a lead-hand premium. 10min commute from town to the facility. When things get too hot in the summer (fire hazard) you get a few extra weeks off (unpaid), or they send you to your paid-for tradeschool sessions (with pay).


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Navyguy said:


> I don't think that is what he meant... Kinda like ground pin up or down... I could start that thread now, but that discussion has been going on a lot longer...
> 
> Cheers
> John


By the way, does the ground pin go up or down on a duplex receptacle? What about which side of a soft boiled egg to open?


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## u2slow (Jan 2, 2014)

kb1jb1 said:


> By the way, does the ground pin go up or down on a duplex receptacle? What about which side of a soft boiled egg to open?


Quad receptacles, and stop worrying about it  










The pointy end of the egg works best for me.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

kb1jb1 said:


> By the way, does the ground pin go up or down on a duplex receptacle? What about which side of a soft boiled egg to open?


They should redesign the duplex receptacle so that the upper has the ground pin on the top, and the lower one has it on the bottom. This would go along way to solving the issue with those right angle 90° plugs you see on air conditioners, washing machines, refrigerators and upright and chest freezers Dash because the manufacturers of those plugs can’t seem to agree either.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

u2slow said:


> Quad receptacles, and stop worrying about it
> 
> View attachment 164953
> 
> ...


Damn that receptacle looks great why does it look like it’s surface mount?


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## MotoGP1199 (Aug 11, 2014)

LGLS said:


> Damn that receptacle looks great why does it look like it’s surface mount?


Almost looks like it's for a 4S box. Only two of the holes are punched all the way through too.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

LGLS said:


> They should redesign the duplex receptacle so that the upper has the ground pin on the top, and the lower one has it on the bottom. This would go along way to solving the issue with those right angle 90° plugs you see on air conditioners, washing machines, refrigerators and upright and chest freezers Dash because the manufacturers of those plugs can’t seem to agree either.


Absolutely. I had 4 places this year where I had to install a second duplex because the homeowner could not plug in two appliances.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

kb1jb1 said:


> Absolutely. I had 4 places this year where I had to install a second duplex because the homeowner could not plug in two appliances.


Well hey man isn’t that A good thing??? It’s just that, I’m at my brothers house and the smokers have to go outside through the laundry room, and his washer plug is upside down. Or his washer receptacle is upside down and his washer plug is correct, who knows?

And of course because my sister-in-law is going to be there I know I’m going to be drinking… So I don’t drive there, and therefore don’t have my go to tools… So when I asked for a screwdriver so I can fix that receptacle… And he hands me a butter knife which I won’t use…

Well you know how it is.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

LGLS said:


> Well hey man isn’t that A good thing??? It’s just that, I’m at my brothers house and the smokers have to go outside through the laundry room, and his washer plug is upside down. Or his washer receptacle is upside down and his washer plug is correct, who knows?
> 
> And of course because my sister-in-law is going to be there I know I’m going to be drinking… So I don’t drive there, and therefore don’t have my go to tools… So when I asked for a screwdriver so I can fix that receptacle… And he hands me a butter knife which I won’t use…
> 
> Well you know how it is.


I know I have used a knife before because I was too lazy to get a screwdriver. In fact I have several knives with bent tips now.


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