# Who the heck is P. F. Labre?



## 480sparky

He's the guy who came up with the idea for a grounding receptacle!

Philip F. Labre.​


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## Shado

480sparky said:


> He's the guy who came up with the idea for a grounding receptacle!​
> 
> 
> Philip F. Labre.​


Wow....is he given credit in any of your older NEC's?


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## 480sparky

Shado said:


> Wow....is he given credit in any of your older NEC's?


Nope. Patents aren't addressed in the NEC. But I can tell you 1962 was the first year grounding receptacles were required by the NEC.


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## Grimlock

When were ground rods first required?


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## 480sparky

Grimlock said:


> When were ground rods first required?


 
As early as 1923. At least as far grounding electrode conductors are concerned. That's as far back as I've had the time to research it. Probably further back, but I haven't drug out the really old codebooks yet. I haven't researched made electrodes at all.

The NEC went through a complete and total renumbering in 1923, and it's durn near impossible to jump back to the 1920 without reading the whole thing.


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## RePhase277

Grimlock said:


> When were ground rods first required?


Rod and plate electrodes are mentioned in my 1914 Hawkins Electrical Guide books.


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## 480sparky

Silly question, but are ground rods even required by the NEC?


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## Dennis Alwon

I love it. Ken asks a question in his thread heading and then answers it in his post. :laughing:


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## 480sparky

Dennis Alwon said:


> I love it. Ken asks a question in his thread heading and then answers it in his post. :laughing:


It's called a 'teaser'.


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## fdew

*More plug history*

I have a book on house wiring from 1916 There are no outlets, Only light sockets. Portable devices are shown but they all have a Edison screw plug on them.

It looks as if the plug we know today evolved from a screw in Edison plug, to a screw in plug with a separable plug and adapter. 1904 Patent number 1064833 1912 by Hubbell

He invented a similar plug and screw adapter in 1904 but it had round pins. # 774250

I found a plug and socket invented in 1891 #466052 and 1894 #530066

Here is an interesting patent 
http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=82RxAAAAEBAJ&dq=2315523


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## 480sparky

fdew said:


> I have a book on house wiring from 1916 There are no outlets, Only light sockets. Portable devices are shown but they all have a Edison screw plug on them..........


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## BIGRED

480sparky said:


>


480, I don't want to be a smart ass, I have a real one.


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## 480sparky

BIGRED said:


> 480, I don't want to be a smart ass, I have a real one.


 
Better a smart ass than a dumb butt.:whistling2::laughing:


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## fdew

I want one. Thats a great find.

Frank


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## RePhase277

fdew said:


> I want one. Thats a great find.
> 
> Frank


I was touring an old historic house in Colorado Springs, Co in 2005. Alot of new wiring had been added over the years, but behind a dresser (yes I was snooping), I found one of those Edison sockets. I whipped out my hot stick which is always in my pocket, and wouldn't you know, it was live! I struck up a conversation with the maintenance guy, who said all the original wiring had been de-energized. When I showed him the receptacle he was surprised, and we both went on the hunt. In the cellar, we found an old 4-circuit fuse block in a wooden box behind some junk. It had apparently been fed as a sub from a newer breaker panel in the not-too-distant past. He was giddy with exciement at hunting down what else might be hiding on those other circuits.


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## 480sparky

InPhase277 said:


> I was touring an old historic house in Colorado Springs, Co in 2005. Alot of new wiring had been added over the years, but behind a dresser (yes I was snooping), I found one of those Edison sockets. I whipped out my hot stick which is always in my pocket, and wouldn't you know, it was live! I struck up a conversation with the maintenance guy, who said all the original wiring had been de-energized. When I showed him the receptacle he was surprised, and we both went on the hunt. In the cellar, we found an old 4-circuit fuse block in a wooden box behind some junk. It had apparently been fed as a sub from a newer breaker panel in the not-too-distant past. He was giddy with exciement at hunting down what else might be hiding on those other circuits.


 
Service call! $125 please.....thank you!


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## fdew

*Yes, but...*



480sparky said:


>


Is it best to mount it with the Ground door go up or down? :laughing:

Frank


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## DougKrystowiak

Phillip Labre is actually my kid's grandfather. He was an electrical enginering student at Milwaukee School of Enginering in Milwaukee when he invented the grounded electrical outlet.


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## 480sparky

DougKrystowiak said:


> Phillip Labre is actually my kid's grandfather. He was an electrical enginering student at Milwaukee School of Enginering in Milwaukee when he invented the grounded electrical outlet.


So he's your father?


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## Bkessler

480sparky said:


> Nope. Patents aren't addressed in the NEC. But I can tell you 1962 was the first year grounding receptacles were required by the NEC.


What year was it required for kitchen, FAU, Laundry ect, but wasn't still yet required for general use circuits and lighting? I've wondered the exact time line. What year NMSC first had an equipment grounds, when the appliance circuits first required grounded outlets and when they were required everywhere else?


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## Al13Cu29

DougKrystowiak said:


> Phillip Labre is actually my kid's grandfather. He was an electrical enginering student at Milwaukee School of Enginering in Milwaukee when he invented the grounded electrical outlet.


By the way... Welcome to the forum. :thumbsup:


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## 480sparky

Bkessler said:


> What year was it required for kitchen, FAU, Laundry ect, but wasn't still yet required for general use circuits and lighting? I've wondered the exact time line. What year NMSC first had an equipment grounds, when the appliance circuits first required grounded outlets and when they were required everywhere else?



In the 1943 NEC, the laundry receptacle in a dwelling was required to be grounded.

In 1956, "open porches, breezeways and the like..." were added to the list.

in the 1959, Basements, garages, outdoors cellars & workshops were added to the grounding requirements.

1962, ALL receps to be grounded.


NM was not required to have a grounding conductor in 2005. That's right.... two thousand five.


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## Bkessler

Kitchens are not thrown in there somewhere in the 50's?


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## 480sparky

Bkessler said:


> Kitchens are not thrown in there somewhere in the 50's?



1959. :thumbsup:


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## Bkessler

480sparky said:


> 1962. :thumbsup:


Just thinking out loud, but is 1962 when the outlets had to be grounded? Because it seems like there was a period where the wire's carried an equipment ground while the outlets were the non grounding type.


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## 480sparky

Bkessler said:


> Just thinking out loud, but is 1962 when the outlets had to be grounded? .......


See post 22.


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## DougKrystowiak

480sparky said:


> So he's your father?


 No my wife's grandfather.


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## The_Modifier

Stuff that SHOULD be taught in trade schools. Not many I have talked to know that Tesla was the founder of productive AC equipment. :blink:

Thanks for sharing 480, I love that stuff and forward it off to the inspectors. :thumbsup:


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## 480sparky

DougKrystowiak said:


> Phillip Labre is actually my kid's grandfather. ..............





480sparky said:


> So he's your father?





DougKrystowiak said:


> No my wife's grandfather.


Exactly how are your kids related to your wife again?:001_huh:


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## Dierte

Bkessler said:


> Just thinking out loud, but is 1962 when the outlets had to be grounded? Because it seems like there was a period where the wire's carried an equipment ground while the outlets were the non grounding type.


 I've seen this in houses of that period. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn' the eg terminated inside the box(typically metal) and then the mounting terminals of the receptacle were attached to the box via the 6/32 screws, thus grounding the receptacle to the box. Tell me if I'm wrong or right because I've only been alive since '83


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## JRaef

480sparky said:


> So he's your father?


Could be his father in-law. :thumbsup:


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## Phil DeBlanc

Bkessler said:


> Just thinking out loud, but is 1962 when the outlets had to be grounded? Because it seems like there was a period where the wire's carried an equipment ground while the outlets were the non grounding type.


Since I was shoulder deep in the fiasco when inspectors first started looking for grounded receptacles I feel safe making a few comments. 

Beginning in 1963, and running into 64 there was a shortage of NM with a ground wire so Inspectors looked the other way on a lot of new houses. In 64 when 12 and 14-2 with ground became available the inspectors had no idea how they wanted grounding done, so for about a year the practice was to double the ground back onto the jacket and clamp it against the back of the box. 

Of course plastic boxes, both black & brown came along abut then and there was no box to ground to. That meant twisting ground wires together clipping all but 1 after twisting and connecting the 1 wire to the receptacle. Since this seemed like a good idea, inspectors also demanded the ground in metal boxes get used in a similar manner. 1 wire from an incoming NM was to be wrapped around a clamping screw, and twisted to all other grounds. Some inspectors wanted the ground carried forward to the receptacle, and others just wanted the box grounded. It got to the point you had to custom wire grounds for each inspectors personal idea.

There was of course no need to ground switches, just the box the switch was in. Light fixtures were pretty much considered to be grounded by the screws holding them to the box.

Fluorescent strips were considered grounded by wrapping the ground wire around a screw on the romex connector and tightening the locknut.


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## MDShunk

I've also seen the ground wire pulled back outside of the box, and secured under the nail head holding the box to the stud.


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## macmikeman

Thank you Phil for the informative post, it is nice of you to give us your account of history.


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## MDShunk

I think P.F. Labre should be put on trial for promoting bringing half of the electrical circuit into every room that is required to kill you.


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## HARRY304E

Phil DeBlanc said:


> Since I was shoulder deep in the fiasco when inspectors first started looking for grounded receptacles I feel safe making a few comments.
> 
> Beginning in 1963, and running into 64 there was a shortage of NM with a ground wire so Inspectors looked the other way on a lot of new houses. In 64 when 12 and 14-2 with ground became available the inspectors had no idea how they wanted grounding done, so for about a year the practice was to double the ground back onto the jacket and clamp it against the back of the box.
> 
> Of course plastic boxes, both black & brown came along abut then and there was no box to ground to. That meant twisting ground wires together clipping all but 1 after twisting and connecting the 1 wire to the receptacle. Since this seemed like a good idea, inspectors also demanded the ground in metal boxes get used in a similar manner. 1 wire from an incoming NM was to be wrapped around a clamping screw, and twisted to all other grounds. Some inspectors wanted the ground carried forward to the receptacle, and others just wanted the box grounded. It got to the point you had to custom wire grounds for each inspectors personal idea.
> 
> There was of course no need to ground switches, just the box the switch was in. Light fixtures were pretty much considered to be grounded by the screws holding them to the box.
> 
> Fluorescent strips were considered grounded by wrapping the ground wire around a screw on the romex connector and tightening the locknut.


Thanks for your post very interesting.:thumbup:


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## HARRY304E

MDShunk said:


> I think P.F. Labre should be put on trial for promoting bringing half of the electrical circuit into every room that is required to kill you.


 He probably died of old age before his invention finaly made it into the NEC..:laughing:


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## Phil DeBlanc

Honestly I get a good many laughs here reading the representations you younger fellows write up. 

The trade has certainly gone through some changes since the 50s when we thought nothing of open switchgear sitting 4 feet in from the wall of a room in use by workers, that's probably a good thing. On the other side of the coin it sure seems a lot of money gets spent today to make things absolutely safe for people too dumb to breathe without a plug in their ear repeating in/out, and that don't impress me as good. Funny thing, when I was coming up one of my instructors was the Asst Executioner for NY, he'd drive over to the chair and test it with a high voltage stick made of oak. 

I was thinking today you guys are calling GFCI devices that fit into a switchbox vintage here, and the first one I installed cost about $270-, came in a metal enclosure about 8" square and 4 or 5" deep, made by P&S. They were the only manufacturer in the 60s when NEC first mandated a GFCI on pool lights. I played pure hell getting paid on that first one because the Inspector shot his mouth off they weren't enforcing the requirement because the thing cost too much.

I figure things were a lot different back then when there was a monopoly on inspection service. NY Board of Fire Underwriters owned the Rochester area and they all drove seafoam green Chevy Biscanes. 

I got fed up with residential back around 65 with all the aluminum Romex crap, and shifted to industrial and mine work where the people are a lot saner and the work is easier. I haven't touched a piece of Romex since I switched, and I never missed the stuff.


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## Shockdoc

Is there any relation to Spaulding Devices from this inventor. Spaulding manufactured switches/receptacles/keylesses back in the 70s and prior to.


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