# How do you rough in island pendants?



## John M. (Oct 29, 2016)

The last two kitchens I roughed in I could not find my wire in the ceiling for the island lights. One kitchen i needed to cut one hole in the drywall; the other one we cut four holes till we found it. My kitchen installer does not want me to install rough in boxes till the island is installed, so i just have my wire in the ceiling. Do you folks have any tricks to the trade here?


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## canbug (Dec 31, 2015)

I would leave it loose on top of the rafters. When you cut in your hole, just fish it out. 

Tim.


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## John M. (Oct 29, 2016)

canbug said:


> I would leave it loose on top of the rafters. When you cut in your hole, just fish it out.
> 
> Tim.


That is part of the problem; the kitchen is on the first floor. Usually joists above, not rafters.


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## canbug (Dec 31, 2015)

Drill some oversized holes and again leaving enough wire to pull it to your opening. Hook it and pull out the tail. I would think that you should only be a foot or two away?

Tim.


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## 3DDesign (Oct 25, 2014)

canbug said:


> Drill some oversized holes and again leaving enough wire to pull it to your opening. Hook it and pull out the tail. I would think that you should only be a foot or two away?
> 
> Tim.


Tell this kitchen designer to get it together. I've never heard of such a thing. Most designers want 42" from the kitchen sink to the island and 48" on the other wall if there's an oven or refrigerator. Theses are standard dimensions that almost ever kitchen designer I've met uses and I've worked with many.


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## canbug (Dec 31, 2015)

Kitchen designer yes, most GCs yes, but a homeowner that can't make up their mind and you're left with trying to figure it out. One reason I like to charge by the hour. I can make almost anything work but it will take some time.

Tim.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

We run huge loops back and forth in the joists above where the island will go, and do the same for vanity lights in the stud pockets (both get buried of course). There really is no better way to do it in my experience. Trying to locate a box on the rough is a fool's exercise. It's guaranteed to be in the wrong spot 99% of the time.


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## 3DDesign (Oct 25, 2014)

MTW said:


> We run huge loops back and forth in the joists above where the island will go, and do the same for vanity lights in the stud pockets (both get buried of course). There really is no better way to do it in my experience. Trying to locate a box on the rough is a fool's exercise. It's guaranteed to be in the wrong spot 99% of the time.


I do a lot of new homes. The island and vanity lights are always dead center.
I meet with every kitchen designer at the job site on every house. I mount boxes during the rough-in. 
Sometimes I catch their mistakes. I recently showed one that her custom top hit the window trim. I saved her butt.
Another mistake many make is with manufactured countertops like cultured marble. The top is one inch larger than the vanity cabinet. If it's against a wall on one side it pushes the center of the bowl 1/2" away from the wall. The top usually has a 1/2" overhang on each end, but if it's against a wall on one side only , the center of the bowl is not the center of the cabinet. Custom tops like granite don't have that problem. 
I hang the lights before the vanity is installed. They're a lot easier to install without that cabinet in the way.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

I zig zag the romex back and forth in the neighborhood of where the plan shows and hold that zig zag in place with very loose staples. I can fish out any part of the romex through my eventual hole and rip the staples aloose. 

When I have plans, I'll layout the kitchen on the floor and shine a laser plumb bob up and set actual real boxes properly. Old work ceiling boxes are typically only rated for 6 pounds, so when I can install a real box, I will.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Yeah, in comes a 20 lb. Desperation Hardware fixture and you're hooped. 

I have only had it happen to me once that they moved the island after my boxes were in. There was a big fight between the HO and the GC that I stayed out of. I was told to hang the fixtures. I collected my money. It looked goofy but it wasn't my house.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

99cents said:


> Yeah, in comes a 20 lb. Desperation Hardware fixture and you're hooped.
> 
> I have only had it happen to me once that they moved the island after my boxes were in. There was a big fight between the HO and the GC that I stayed out of. I was told to hang the fixtures. I collected my money. It looked goofy but it wasn't my house.


Yeah, I put in boxes one time- right off the plans- for pendants over a peninsula counter and the upper cupboard door would tink one when you opened it. The kitchen designer told me I shouldn't have scaled the plans. I told her the plans shouldn't have had the scale in the title block.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I only work with a handful of guys for kitchens and remodels, I usually work close with them to figure out the layout for pendants and cans. The Bosch lasers are a big help for those as well as getting your counter plugs even in older homes. I buy into the zig zag thing for the bath vanities.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

nrp3 said:


> I buy into the zig zag thing for the bath vanities.


I have already had to zig-zag romex through three stud bays because they weren't sure if they wanted two side lights or one over top.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Cover all your bases, makes total sense.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

MTW said:


> We run huge loops back and forth in the joists above where the island will go, and do the same for vanity lights in the stud pockets (both get buried of course). There really is no better way to do it in my experience. Trying to locate a box on the rough is a fool's exercise. It's guaranteed to be in the wrong spot 99% of the time.


the evil government would red tag us here if we don't install
boxes on the rough-in. They do not allow old work
boxes that use the drywall for support here.

Evil BAd Nasty government people who blew up
the world trade center baster*s


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## NewElect85 (Dec 24, 2017)

Its interesting that our trade requires that we verify every finish in the building especially very electrically concentrated kitchens.
The plumbers are good but, they can move supply lines and sink drains a bit. Toilets and tubs, not so much.
Electric finishes can't be concealed and we need answers and cut sheets well in advance of closing up walls.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

how do you guys cut in boxes over a finished island? 
we're not allowed to step up on them because rich people
don't like that.

We usually install the lights before the island is set 
so either way , you have to get the tape measure 
out and figure where the island will be...

Don't any of you use kitchen layouts from
the cabinet maker?


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

NewElect85 said:


> Its interesting that our trade requires that we verify every finish in the building especially very electrically concentrated kitchens.
> The plumbers are good but, they can move supply lines and sink drains a bit. Toilets and tubs, not so much.
> Electric finishes can't be concealed and we need answers and cut sheets well in advance of closing up walls.


Exactly ^^


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## John M. (Oct 29, 2016)

MTW said:


> We run huge loops back and forth in the joists above where the island will go, and do the same for vanity lights in the stud pockets (both get buried of course). There really is no better way to do it in my experience. Trying to locate a box on the rough is a fool's exercise. It's guaranteed to be in the wrong spot 99% of the time.


I like your idea. My jobs are usually T&M, custom houses. They homeowner ends up moving the island a couple inches too often for me to mount boxes during rough-in.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

3DDesign said:


> I do a lot of new homes. The island and vanity lights are always dead center.


Spectacular. Fantastic. I work for an EC that does well north of 70 houses a year and there are far too many variables and people in between the rough and finish to even remotely figure out where things go. Half the time we don't have any answers on layout on the rough for islands and vanities, let alone exact measurements. That's why putting huge loops and burying them works best. It has eliminated all these problems.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

MDShunk said:


> I zig zag the romex back and forth in the neighborhood of where the plan shows and hold that zig zag in place with very loose staples. I can fish out any part of the romex through my eventual hole and rip the staples aloose.
> 
> When I have plans, I'll layout the kitchen on the floor and shine a laser plumb bob up and set actual real boxes properly. Old work ceiling boxes are typically only rated for 6 pounds, so when I can install a real box, I will.


We use that exact method, but even with kitchen plans we still zig zag the wire for the island. Things inevitably change. We then laser plumb bob the exact locations once the island is in and cut in old work boxes.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

lighterup said:


> the evil government would red tag us here if we don't install
> boxes on the rough-in. They do not allow old work
> boxes that use the drywall for support here.


Well, the evil government here allows us to bury wires without boxes on the rough in, because they have the common sense to know what it's for. Secondly, they never take down lights to check what kinds of boxes we use, so that's also a non-issue. 



> Evil BAd Nasty government people who blew up
> the world trade center baster*s


Righto.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

MTW said:


> MDShunk said:
> 
> 
> > I zig zag the romex back and forth in the neighborhood of where the plan shows and hold that zig zag in place with very loose staples. I can fish out any part of the romex through my eventual hole and rip the staples aloose.
> ...


You use a regular old work round box or an old work fan box with the spreader bar?


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

lighterup said:


> how do you guys cut in boxes over a finished island?
> we're not allowed to step up on them because rich people
> don't like that.
> 
> ...



Most islands and peninsulas are granite these days so walking on them is no issue, though I avoid it if possible. We have a rule that we never cut in any boxes without a vanity or island being installed. Had too many issues with that in the past.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

MDShunk said:


> You use a regular old work round box or an old work fan box with the spreader bar?


Regular plastic old work round. Most pendants are under 6 pounds so it's never really an issue.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

I had a customer who couldn't decide. We ended up putting in track and hanging pendants from that. It at least gave us flexibility in one direction. Next time maybe I'll just stick a piece of strut on the ceiling and tell them it's the industrial look.


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

i guess i'm lucky on this issue. MOST of the time there will be a drawing on the floor of the kitchen layout. i go by that and any changes are negotionable. i try to work with undecided people but only so far


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

papaotis said:


> i guess i'm lucky on this issue. MOST of the time there will be a drawing on the floor of the kitchen layout. i go by that and any changes are negotionable. i try to work with undecided people but only so far


I always appreciated when builders do that. Most of the better ones do. I recall one builder that even had a lot of the major furniture layout drawn on the floor in those super-fat Sharpie markers. It made the receptacle layout a little more sensible.


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

i work with a lot of home owners that are the gc. not if i dont know them at all and it's not always good that way. but MOST of the time it's better than working with total strangers!


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## ElectricMon (Jan 17, 2018)

lighterup said:


> MTW said:
> 
> 
> > We run huge loops back and forth in the joists above where the island will go, and do the same for vanity lights in the stud pockets (both get buried of course). There really is no better way to do it in my experience. Trying to locate a box on the rough is a fool's exercise. It's guaranteed to be in the wrong spot 99% of the time.
> ...


If it's an accessible attic above you can just put a switched j box and and cover and get around that and if its joists maybe smurf tube it from a switch you could fish romex or mc up if you ever needed


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## 29573 (Apr 8, 2012)

MTW said:


> Regular plastic old work round. Most pendants are under 6 pounds so it's never really an issue.


Is there a round old work box listed for ceiling fixture support?


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

villageelectric said:


> Is there a round old work box listed for ceiling fixture support?


To my knowledge old work round boxes all come with a weight limit. I think they're most all around 6 pounds. More than that and you're going to have to use an old work paddle fan setup.


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## 29573 (Apr 8, 2012)

MDShunk said:


> To my knowledge old work round boxes all come with a weight limit. I think they're most all around 6 pounds. More than that and you're going to have to use an old work paddle fan setup.


Thanks, Carlton blue have “not for for ceiling fixture support” on the catalog page.

Not sure on others


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

villageelectric said:


> Thanks, Carlton blue have “not for for ceiling fixture support” on the catalog page.
> 
> Not sure on others


I generally used the Union 3080-9, and the catalog page says "suitable for up to 15 lb fixture support". 

page 22:
https://s3.amazonaws.com/cesco-content/unilog/Batch6/786358/108322-Catalog.pdf


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

villageelectric said:


> Is there a round old work box listed for ceiling fixture support?


Yes, but I'd bet we have thousands of vanity lights and island pendants hanging off of non-rated boxes.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

MDShunk said:


> I generally used the Union 3080-9, and the catalog page says "suitable for up to 15 lb fixture support".
> 
> page 22:
> https://s3.amazonaws.com/cesco-content/unilog/Batch6/786358/108322-Catalog.pdf



Union boxes.


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## Arrow3030 (Mar 12, 2014)

I rough them in where the plans show. It shouldn't be that hard for a designer and GC to figure out where the island is going. 

I've even debated that me doing old work in a new kitchen can take as long as a designer doing a proper layout during rough.

Regarding old work in ceilings. I don't do it. I'm pretty sure I've read on here several times that sheet rock isn't rated to support anything. So even if the box is rated for the weight, the rock it's attached to isn't.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I never worried about the round old work boxes in the wall for support, it was the ceiling. 15 lbs is pretty generous. If drywall was problem, there’d be no old work cans either.


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## farmantenna (Nov 22, 2012)

MTW said:


> We run huge loops back and forth in the joists above where the island will go, and do the same for vanity lights in the stud pockets (both get buried of course). There really is no better way to do it in my experience. Trying to locate a box on the rough is a fool's exercise. It's guaranteed to be in the wrong spot 99% of the time.


this is what I do. Also take pictures with measuring tape in the picture. 

I probably use 30' of wire to weave back and forth. What sucks is when you holesaw the hole on the finish lands you on a stud but I just go deeper into it to remove enough to find the wire


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## JBrzoz00 (Nov 17, 2013)

I do the same thing as MDShunk and MTW.

I also take pictures after a rough in and stop in once a week after drywall is up and it's started to be finished.

You would think with all of the technology these days we could set a box and have it exact.


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## Arrow3030 (Mar 12, 2014)

You absolutely can leave slack and set a box later. I just hope the accommodation you're providing meets the price your charging. 

I have a special rate I call a bunch of monkeys trying to hump a football.


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## mikewillnot (Apr 2, 2013)

John M. said:


> Usually joists above, not rafters.


What's the difference??


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## craigdj87 (Oct 11, 2016)

I leave a wire up in the rafters. If its floor joists then I weave the wire back and forth in the joist space the length of the Island. If the framing is real goofy like double or sistered joists in a remodel, I will take a picture and draw a map of the joists and leave the map by the panel to use as reference when I come back on the finish.


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