# Question about interview score disclosure



## EmilyRose

UPDATE: 

So I spoke with someone at the Detroit JATC and they confirmed that yes, there is indeed a specific policy to NOT disclose even the interview score to applicants. This strikes me as a very atypical policy for a JATC to hold, as it seems nearly everyone is told their raw numeric interview score, if not the relative rank itself. Can anyone confirm that this is unusual? Has this happened to anyone else? Is anyone aware of ANY other apprentice training programs that make a policy of keeping the interview score from their applicants?


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## HackWork

Emily, many locals that I know of and heard about give the score. Your local apparently isn't one of them That is the policy of the local that your husband applied to. 

I am going to be very honest with you here. All of those good things you mentioned about your husband probably don't matter nearly as much as you think. What matters more than anything is who he knows.

So what you should be focusing on is how many friends does your husband have in the local and where you are going to be taking them out to dinner.


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## EmilyRose

Well, that's pretty depressing. 

Thank you for replying though!


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## EmilyRose

As much as I appreciate and am grateful for the honesty of HackWork's reply, any other replies with equally honest words of encouragement would also be greatly appreciated... 


I mean, the only thing right now that is keeping us positive and optimistic is the fact that we know this guy who was accepted to the inside wireman program last year and all he had going for him was a 4-year degree in a completely unrelated field and less that a year of only marginally relevant work experience from several years ago. He didn't know anyone in the union, and he actually missed his first scheduled interview, but they liked him enough to give him a qualifying score and he's doing really well a year out. My husband is honestly no less qualified or connected than this dude and I think if the interviews had gone poorly, my husband would have gotten that vibe. I know, everything depends on a bunch of unknown and unknowable variables, but I feel like if that guy was acceptable, there's gotta be hope for us, right? 

I honestly refuse to believe that it comes mostly down to who you know, 'cause if it did, then this other guy wouldn't have had any better shot than my husband, but he obviously made the cut without insider connections. Words of encouragement would definitely help me chill out about this. That, and advise on what we can do to increase his attractiveness to the JATC in the meantime while we wait and wait and wait.


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## HackWork

EmilyRose said:


> As much as I appreciate and am grateful for the honesty of HackWork's reply, any other replies with equally honest words of encouragement would also be greatly appreciated...
> 
> 
> I mean, the only thing right now that is keeping us positive and optimistic is the fact that we know this guy who was accepted to the inside wireman program last year and all he had going for him was a 4-year degree in a completely unrelated field and less that a year of only marginally relevant work experience from several years ago. He didn't know anyone in the union, and he actually missed his first scheduled interview, but they liked him enough to give him a qualifying score and he's doing really well a year out. My husband is honestly no less qualified or connected than this dude and I think if the interviews had gone poorly, my husband would have gotten that vibe. I know, everything depends on a bunch of unknown and unknowable variables, but I feel like if that guy was acceptable, there's gotta be hope for us, right?
> 
> I honestly refuse to believe that it comes mostly down to who you know, 'cause if it did, then this other guy wouldn't have had any better shot than my husband, but he obviously made the cut without insider connections. Words of encouragement would definitely help me chill out about this. That, and advise on what we can do to increase his attractiveness to the JATC in the meantime while we wait and wait and wait.


If you want a bunch of fluff for encouragement, this isn't the place.

If you want honesty and the truth based on experience, then you're in the right place.

Not all locals are the same, but I have to think that a Detroit local is like the other big ones, which are often called "Father & son locals". 

You mention degrees, GPAs, letters of recommendation from previous employers, past experience, etc. Many times the union doesn't care about those things. Often the union likes to operate like the military, break people down and rebuild them their own way. That's why they often prefer kids fresh out of high school with no experience at all. It's less bad habits to break.

Your friend that was hired probably beat out other people with much better degrees and possibly even years of electrical experience. Why? Maybe one thing he said in the interview led the board to think he had a good work ethic, or would follow along and be a good union member.

That's just the way it is. Nepotism is rampant in the union. 

Take a look at last year's apprenticeship class, see how many last names match the last names of existing members. Then look at the people left over and notice how they are minorities or females. The few left over after that? Probably guys like your friend who got lucky on the interview.


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## CGW

HackWork said:


> Emily, many locals that I know of and heard about give the score. Your local apparently isn't one of them That is the policy of the local that your husband applied to.
> 
> I am going to be very honest with you here. All of those good things you mentioned about your husband probably don't matter nearly as much as you think. What matters more than anything is who he knows.
> 
> So what you should be focusing on is how many friends does your husband have in the local and where you are going to be taking them out to dinner.
> 
> That's just the way it is. Nepotism is rampant in the union.


I disagree. I walked in, applied, returned for the entrance exam and then later for the interview and was then ranked 4th. I'd never say there aren't locals who operate per your description, but let's dial it down a bit... 



EmilyRose said:


> As much as I appreciate and am grateful for the honesty of HackWork's reply, any other replies with equally honest words of encouragement would also be greatly appreciated...
> 
> 
> I mean, the only thing right now that is keeping us positive and optimistic is the fact that we know this guy who was accepted to the inside wireman program last year and all he had going for him was a 4-year degree in a completely unrelated field and less that a year of only marginally relevant work experience from several years ago. He didn't know anyone in the union, and he actually missed his first scheduled interview, but they liked him enough to give him a qualifying score and he's doing really well a year out. My husband is honestly no less qualified or connected than this dude and I think if the interviews had gone poorly, my husband would have gotten that vibe. I know, everything depends on a bunch of unknown and unknowable variables, but I feel like if that guy was acceptable, there's gotta be hope for us, right?
> 
> I honestly refuse to believe that it comes mostly down to who you know, 'cause if it did, then this other guy wouldn't have had any better shot than my husband, but he obviously made the cut without insider connections. Words of encouragement would definitely help me chill out about this. That, and advise on what we can do to increase his attractiveness to the JATC in the meantime while we wait and wait and wait.


Don't mind Hack. He loves pi$$ing in everyone's wheaties. 

Per my reply above, I walked in, applied, returned for the entrance exam and then later for the interview and was then ranked 4th. I never actually asked my overall score as I was pleased with my ranking (over 70 had applied). 

College degrees, even previous work experience aren't the most important factors here. It really comes down to how you represent yourself in the interview. I assumed I was going into a room full of sharks and was mentally prepared for such. I made it seem as if I'd be defusing bombs with my teeth if I was accepted into the program.

That said, I feel it is odd they wouldn't tell him his ranking. Depending on the contractor's needs, being ranked 1st vs. 50th is a night and day difference. No one wants to be a total pest, but I'd consider going down in person and speaking with the director of membership development. 

Best of luck to you guys.


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## ponyboy

The only thing I had going for me was a bunch of nights in the drunk tank for bar fights and a 1.6 gpa. But now I'm kick ass thanks to the ibew! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## HackWork

CGW, like I said, Detroit is a whole different animal than your Podunk area of Ohio.

You mentioned that 70 people applied for your apprenticeship. In areas like mine and Detroit, 70 apprentices get on every year, or more. There's at least 1000 applicants, sometimes 2 or 3000.

The rest of your post agreed with what I said, that degrees and GPAs don't matter, the interview is a big part of it after the nepotism.


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## CGW

HackWork said:


> CGW, like I said, Detroit is a whole different animal than your Podunk area of Ohio.
> 
> You mentioned that 70 people applied for your apprenticeship. In areas like mine and Detroit, 70 apprentices get on every year, or more. There's at least 1000 applicants, sometimes 2 or 3000.


I'm well aware of that. Yet nepotism can exist regardless of numbers. Regardless, let's avoid the ad hominem logic and try not to derail the thread :thumbsup:


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## HackWork

CGW said:


> I'm well aware of that. Yet nepotism can exist regardless of numbers. Regardless, let's avoid the ad hominem logic and try not to derail the thread :thumbsup:


 You are the only one who is derailing this thread, going after me personally instead of the thread topic. 

If something I said is wrong, quote it and then refute it. If you can't do that, then go somewhere else to play games.

Back to the topic, getting into a local in an area where it's actually worth it to get in is very hard to do. Some people equate it with winning the lottery. Getting into the local in my area means you immediately start working for over $26 per hour, free education, excellent benefits, and in five years you have a career in which you're making over $100,000 per year if you're a halfway decent electrician. 

It's different in backwards areas like where you live, so your experiences really don't apply in this situation. It's not easy in the big city areas, so I'm just trying to be realistic. The OP should make provisions to continue applying and have alternate plans.


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## CGW

Thanks for setting us all super straight....all day, every day :thumbup:


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## HackWork

CGW said:


> Thanks for setting us all super straight....all day, every day :thumbup:


Emily, The one good thing that I liked about having older apprentices like your husband is that they don't act childish like this guy I quoted above. He is the typical apprentice who acts like he knows everything, yet when he's brought to task he only has smart ass comments to make. 

I'll let you decide who's posting more accurate info that applies to your situation. I wish you and your husband luck.


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## EmilyRose

Hack - The starting pay for an inside wireman apprentice is nearly $10 less an hour than what you claim the rate is in your area, so, and I don't believe the number of applicants (including those who take the test but do not score in the top 30th or so percentile) much exceeds 700, so it's certainly not the 1-or-even-2-3-thousand that you imagine for a metropolitan area. But yeah, it's a lot, and the pay and benefits are good for entry-level work, so I get the level of competition. 

CGW - While he didn't mention dental detonator disarmament, my husband definitely did make it clear that he knew he was getting into extremely physically demanding work in potentially harsh conditions, getting dirty, heavy lifting, etc., and did his best to express his eagerness to get started doing whatever kind of work needed to be done. He used the example of the house we renovated to illustrate his capability and affinity for exhausting and even dangerous manual labor (roofing, demolition, etc.). The recommendations, we were hoping, would show how pleased his current and former bosses are/have been with his work ethic and job performance learning the book trade, applying his knowledge, and working hard running heavy boxes up/down stairs in an unheated warehouse, not calling in sick even once in several years, etc. 

We're hoping that he came off as an highly committed, eager and agreeable recruit who is both mentally and physically up for whatever the job might throw at him. That is the impression he was trying to leave, and from the blow-by-blow of the interview he gave me, I can't imagine he left any other impression than exactly that.... 

...but then again, who knows?

I guess we'll have to try to speak with someone again, like the director of the training program perhaps, to and see if we can get more info (they are really weirdly withholding of any feedback)... what I'd really like to know now though, is what my husband can do while we wait on a letter than may never come, to improve his prospects between now and the next time he's allowed to interview (they said you must wait 1 year). Like what kind of classes should he take, if any? Should look into getting hired as a non-union entry-level "helper" with an electrical contractor in the area? Would that just entail cold calling and resume-bombing contractors like, from the phone book? What would the best kind of experience be to try to get as a non-apprentice or pre-apprentice?


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## CGW

HackWork said:


> Emily, The one good thing that I liked about having older apprentices like your husband is that they don't act childish like this guy I quoted above. He is the typical apprentice who acts like he knows everything, yet when he's brought to task he only has smart ass comments to make.
> 
> I'll let you decide who's posting more accurate info that applies to your situation. I wish you and your husband luck.


I told her my experiences. You told her yours. I don't doubt your honesty regarding your experiences, and two very different experiences can simultaneously be true. No need to get personal. There's no arguing "facts" here as we are sharing our subjective, personal experiences. Life happens that way.

AFA my work performance, you're now the one *assuming* virtually EVERYTHING about me. Not only am I older than her husband, you seem to assume when we disagree on "XYZ" that would somehow translate to a job site. 

I don't know about you, but I've had healthy debates on a wide range of topics with numerous co-workers and not one interfered with the tasks at hand. Stop taking things so personally. You're clearly a person who has well thought out opinions whether or not we might agree. Personally I appreciate that. But it's not personal, at least not for me. 

Carry on :thumbsup:


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## EmilyRose

Thanks you guys, I really do appreciate your responses to my super anxious questions!!


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## John Valdes

EmilyRose said:


> Thanks you guys, I really do appreciate your responses to my super anxious questions!!


I have very serious question.
How come your husband is not posting, but you are.
You also mention you "contacted" the local in some regard?

If I were on the board and some guys wife was calling, I would have reservations about the applicant and especially an assertive wife that does not respect boundaries.

In my opinion your husband would be foolish to try and join the local when he has a degree and can do much better with the college degree than he can do on a construction site. This could be debated here, but like I said, its my opinion.
He very well may be able to handle the rigors of this job, but once he is pushing a broom or digging a trench outside in freezing cold weather, the sheepskin is sure gonna look good.
I hope he is making the right decision?


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## TGGT

The wife speaking on behalf of the husband is weird.


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## knomore

I sit on a JATC committee, and we do not disclose scores of entrance exams or interviews to the applicants, or their position on the list. Our JATC uses the interview score only to place people on the list. The entrance exam is not part of the list placement score, but it does factor into the overall opinion of the committee members. 

When we are done with a interview we simply tell the applicant that they will be placed on a list based on their interview score and they remain there for three years. They might be called at any time in those three years, but there is no guarantee at any point. 

Ultimately I would say don't hold your breath waiting for the call. We constantly interview and people who interviewed this month might end up ahead of people who interviewed three years ago. 

If he's super set on getting into the program have him call the JATC and tell them he's willing to work white paper and then after a year he should be able to re interview. I can guarantee working with a contractor in the field for a year as a helper is the best way to land at the top of the list. That is exactly how I ended up in the program thirteen years ago.


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