# mwbc ?



## hammerhands (Jan 1, 2011)

I ran a multi wire circuit to power the outlets in two separate rooms. Used 10/3 from the panel to a jbox and split off to either room with 12/2. Used separate non handle tie 20a breakers on opposite phases ,okay according to older code (02). With one breaker shut off I still get a voltage reading on that circuit (24or so vac)This must be inductive voltage? My question is when does this become a problem?


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

hammerhands said:


> I ran a multi wire circuit to power the outlets in two separate rooms. Used 10/3 from the panel to a jbox and split off to either room with 12/2. Used separate non handle tie 20a breakers on opposite phases ,okay according to older code (02). With one breaker shut off I still get a voltage reading on that circuit (24or so vac)This must be inductive voltage? My question is when does this become a problem?


 It became a problem when you did this yourself. !!!! 

Hire an electrician!!!


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Why did you run a 10/3?


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

jwjrw said:


> Why did you run a 10/3?


 Thats what the H D expert told him to do......:laughing::laughing:


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Use a meter with a low-z function, and quit being too cheap to hire an electrician. A good GC knows there's a piece of pie for all the trades. A jack of all trades is truly a master of NONE. Do your self and your customers a favor and sub your electrical to a licensed electricain.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

​


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

480, I dont think that guy has ever done electrical work in his life.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

NolaTigaBait said:


> 480, I dont think that guy has ever done electrical work in his life.



But he's got a great idea.... use 'older codes' so you can save some money!

I think I'm gonna start using, oh, say, 1971. :laughing:

Go GFCIs, no arc faults, no handle-ties, no TR receps, no WR devices....... man, I'm gonna make a killing!


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Why 10/3 ???? 
How and where did you splice it down to 12/2?
Why the 02 code?
What kind of service grounding exist in the premises?
where did you recieve the 24 volt reading? panel, outlets?


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

480sparky said:


> But he's got a great idea.... use 'older codes' so you can save some money!
> 
> I think I'm gonna start using, oh, say, 1971. :laughing:
> 
> Go GFCIs, no arc faults, no handle-ties, no TR receps, no WR devices....... man, I'm gonna make a killing!


I'm just finishing up a whole house reno to the 02 code, nothing like a nice clean AFCI free panel.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

480sparky said:


> But he's got a great idea.... use 'older codes' so you can save some money!
> 
> I think I'm gonna start using, oh, say, 1971. :laughing:
> 
> Go GFCIs, no arc faults, no handle-ties, no TR receps, no WR devices....... man, I'm gonna make a killing!


Yes but the 1897 code is a lott smaller:laughing:


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

hammerhands, are you a GC or an electrician? 

Or are you a GC that does his own electrical work? I know many of these and rarely is it a good thing.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

HARRY304E said:


> Yes but the 1897 code is a lott smaller:laughing:



Then I wouldn't be able to use NM... that didn't show up until the 20s.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Then I wouldn't be able to use NM... that didn't show up until the 20s.


 K&T:laughing:


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Speedy Petey said:


> hammerhands, are you a GC or an electrician?
> 
> Or are you a GC that does his own electrical work? I know many of these and rarely is it a good thing.


I had one of those HI guys as a customer , he called the other day with his intentions to install a Generac at a Deli I wired for him and how i'm too expensive and he'll install it himself.....A job i want to see when done with a camera in hand.


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## hammerhands (Jan 1, 2011)

Needed three wire ,didn't have any 12/3,50miles to supply house. Joined neutrals and L1 and L2 in jbox,grounding is double electrodes with continous loop to panel,get the 24v reading at the outlets when the breaker for that leg is off and the other is on .When both are on everythings fine. Amp reading on the shared neutral shows the difference between the two loads. This is not a code question ,it's a theory question.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

hammerhands said:


> Needed three wire ,didn't have any 12/3,50miles to supply house. Joined neutrals and L1 and L2 in jbox,grounding is double electrodes with continous loop to panel,get the 24v reading at the outlets when the breaker for that leg is off and the other is on .When both are on everythings fine. Amp reading on the shared neutral shows the difference between the two loads. This is not a code question ,it's a theory question.


 No It is Code question and you should have a code book and Know how to use it.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

What are you using for a meter?


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## hammerhands (Jan 1, 2011)

T5 600 fluke


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

hammerhands said:


> T5 600 fluke


 

That's the problem. You're reading induction from one conductor being in such close proximity to the other. Try a wiggy


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

No problems with it, and when I'm using my T5 and get ghost readings I just ignore them.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> No problems with it, and when I'm using my T5 and get ghost readings I just ignore them.


 ...And if you had a T+Pro there would be no ghost readings to ignore. :whistling2::jester:

-John


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## hammerhands (Jan 1, 2011)

Right now I'm trying a Manhattan


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

hammerhands said:


> Right now I'm trying a Manhattan


Where do you live in NY?


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Big John said:


> ...And if you had a T+Pro there would be no ghost readings to ignore.


I'm just about to click add to cart on a T+ pro. I got to play with one in person and liked it.


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## hammerhands (Jan 1, 2011)

GF. LG area


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

hammerhands said:


> GF. LG area


 Nice area. Do they require licenses up there - I know alot of NY state does not.


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## hammerhands (Jan 1, 2011)

NO,you need a license to give someone a haircut ,but not to wire their house. Go figure!


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

hammerhands said:


> NO,you need a license to give someone a haircut ,but not to wire their house. Go figure!


Same here. I wish this state would unite and get it's act together. Instead individual counties look to adopt licenses with crazy requirements and exorbitant fees.


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## hammerhands (Jan 1, 2011)

NO,you need a license to give someone a haircut ,but not to wire their house. Go figure!


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## hammerhands (Jan 1, 2011)

NO,you need a license to give someone a haircut ,but not to wire their house. Go figure!


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

hammerhands said:


> NO,you need a license to give someone a haircut ,but not to wire their house. Go figure!


I wish NY would get a statewide license, it would save me alot of money over county and town renewals.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Shockdoc said:


> I wish NY would get a statewide license, it would save me alot of money over county and town renewals.


*$%$# LI and the city are probably the main reasons why we will never have a statewide license. Too many local greedy municipalities would loose out on some gravy. 

My old boss's office down there over 20 years ago looked like a freakin lawyers office. He had like 20 license certificates on his walls. Even back then he said it cost thousands to remew them all.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Speedy Petey said:


> *$%$# LI and the city are probably the main reasons why we will never have a statewide license. Too many local greedy municipalities would loose out on some gravy.
> 
> My old boss's office down there over 20 years ago looked like a freakin lawyers office. He had like 20 license certificates on his walls. Even back then he said it cost thousands to remew them all.


Nassau County with it's individual towns, city and villages requiring their own licenses , and as time goes on, towns and villages in Suffolk will join suit for the extra revenue just as Southampton has. Us NY electricians need to lobby some of these pols to change this system to one like NJ.


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

Shockdoc said:


> Nassau County with it's individual towns, city and villages requiring their own licenses , and as time goes on, towns and villages in Suffolk will join suit for the extra revenue just as Southampton has. Us NY electricians need to lobby some of these pols to change this system to one like NJ.


 Hammerhands..... Obviously not an electrician. Mods, Please shut this thread down, before it gets too dumb.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

oldtimer said:


> Hammerhands..... Obviously not an electrician. Mods, Please shut this thread down, before it gets too dumb.


 Maybe but then we can't make sport of him can we:laughing::laughing:


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

oldtimer said:


> Hammerhands..... Obviously not an electrician. Mods, Please shut this thread down, before it gets too dumb.


I thought about it but if it is legal for him to work in his area without a license then I am not sure that is appropriate. I'd rather he learn and do it right then mess up but if the other mods feel that way they may want to shut it down.

Someone can be an electrician and not have a license.


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I thought about it but if it is legal for him to work in his area without a license then I am not sure that is appropriate. I'd rather he learn and do it right then mess up but if the other mods feel that way they may want to shut it down.
> 
> (Someone can be an electrician and not have a license.)


 Dennis. Would you hire him to wire your house?? :whistling2:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

oldtimer said:


> Dennis. Would you hire him to wire your house?? :whistling2:


It seem,s that in New york state that a license is required in some countys and not others.

You would think that the insurence companys would push for a state wide license system. 

There must be some prety scary wiring systems in some of those houses over there without any state wide standards to go by.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

I accidentally posted in old timers post. I accidentally hit his edit button-- this mod thing is new to me so I am learning- need to be more careful. Here is my response

I wouldn't hire most EC's that I know. I have no idea what kind of work he does. The point is if you don't need a license then there probably aren't many, if any, licensed contractors--how can you get licensed if there is no statewide license.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I accidentally posted in old timers post. I accidentally hit his edit button-- this mod thing is new to me so I am learning- need to be more careful. Here is my response
> 
> I wouldn't hire most EC's that I know. I have no idea what kind of work he does. The point is if you don't need a license then there probably aren't many, if any, licensed contractors--how can you get licensed if there is no statewide license.


 It must be a real pain in the neck to have to keep track of what county requires what license and all the different rules that come along with it.


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I accidentally posted in old timers post. I accidentally hit his edit button-- this mod thing is new to me so I am learning- need to be more careful. Here is my response
> 
> I wouldn't hire most EC's that I know. I have no idea what kind of work he does. The point is if you don't need a license then there probably aren't many, if any, licensed contractors--how can you get licensed if there is no statewide license.


 Dennis, I understand what you are saying. 

My point is. How is the H O protected, if the (so called ELECTRICIAN) is not licensed? Maybe he took a two hour course at H D. Where is the proof that he can do the job safely, and correctly???

There are many out there, that will take advantage of this situation, and the outcome could be extremely dangerous. I M O. insurance companies should insist on the work being done by licensed, competent, people. 

There.... I got my rant over!!!


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

oldtimer said:


> Dennis, I understand what you are saying.
> 
> My point is. How is the H O protected, if the (so called ELECTRICIAN) is not licensed? Maybe he took a two hour course at H D. Where is the proof that he can do the job safely, and correctly???


Well, I do see your point but it is a hard call. I see Pete posted here and didn't close it so both of us feel it is okay to allow it.

I have seen many electricians ask questions that are very obvious to us. They list on the profile that they are master electricians and don't know basic grounding. Should we tell them they shouldn't be doing work-- many of them shouldn't. How many licensed guys lose their license or get reprimands for illegal work? Every year NC publishes the names of those contractors and there are many.

Sometimes a helper asks questions and we have no idea whether he/she is working on the side. Personally I prefer to help a DIYer simply because I do some of my own plumbing, heating, auto work, painting, etc. and I also would rather see them do it correctly. It's the guys that don't ask I worry about.

Simply the rules won't allow us to help a DIYer but how do we determine who that is? It is not that simple. Should we only give advice to licensed guys?


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Well, I do see your point but it is a hard call. I see Pete posted here and didn't close it so both of us feel it is okay to allow it.
> 
> I have seen many electricians ask questions that are very obvious to us. They list on the profile that they are master electricians and don't know basic grounding. Should we tell them they shouldn't be doing work-- many of them shouldn't. How many licensed guys lose their license or get reprimands for illegal work? Every year NC publishes the names of those contractors and there are many.
> 
> ...




A commercial guy would ask some questions that a remodel guy would think were stupid and vice versa. If there is no license in that area and he does electrical work I have no problem helping him do something right. It's the ho's that are too cheap to hire an electrician I won't help.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

oldtimer said:


> My point is. How is the H O protected, if the (so called ELECTRICIAN) is not licensed?


I have no idea, but if that area does not require licensing I don't see where it is any of our business to worry about. 

In other words if that area allows anyone to perform electrical work and they are making a living at it they are in fact an electrician. 

Large parts of PA are like that, I don't think MDshunk is licensed but I would hire him if I had the opportunity. .


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

BBQ said:


> I have no idea, but if that area does not require licensing I don't see where it is any of our business to worry about.
> 
> In other words if that area allows anyone to perform electrical work and they are making a living at it they are in fact an electrician.
> 
> Large parts of PA are like that, I don't think MDshunk is licensed but I would hire him if I had the opportunity. .



O.K.Guys. I respect all your points of view, but I will keep my own.

Thanks for all the responses to my thread.

At least it is food for thought!


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

oldtimer said:


> O.K.Guys. I respect all your points of view, but I will keep my own.
> 
> Thanks for all the responses to my thread.
> 
> At least it is food for thought!


So you do not think Marc ... AKA MDShunk ... is qualified to post here because the area he lives in does not require electrical licensing? 

Seems kind of short sighted. :blink:


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

BBQ said:


> So you do not think Marc ... AKA MDShunk ... is qualified to post here because the area he lives in does not require electrical licensing?
> 
> Seems kind of short sighted. :blink:


 READ MY POST, PLEASE. And try not to spin it to cause controversy.


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

To add some levity to this since it's getting heavy.....

I'm willing to bet that BBQ was waiting anxiously for me to post in this thread and say:

{sarcasm on}

MWBC's are the devil's work!! They are evil and have no business in resi work!! Strange things will happen to all connected loads and your house will become the focal point of the next apocalypse!! :jester:

{sarcasm off}

Seriously, the OP has discovered phantom voltage, nothing more. I have no problem with his installation. I would, as a caution to any future sparkies, tag the #10 hots to indicate that they feed #12 branches and the OCPD must not exceed 20 amps. Not required by Code but simply a good idear IMHO.


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

Jeez, I need a license to connect a ground wire to a ground wire, a white wire to a white wire, and a black wire to a black wire?


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

kaboler said:


> Jeez, I need a license to connect a ground wire to a ground wire, a white wire to a white wire, and a black wire to a black wire?


 

Yeah, that's all there is to it.:whistling2:


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## reddog552 (Oct 11, 2007)

*License*

I have been doing electrical work since 1970. I have installed cement plants, concrete plants,Tv transmitter stations, and about 700+ residential services, Never had a license,work has always passed inspection.I guess im not a true electrican?


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

Well, in truth, quality of work would be a lot better if there were a reqirement to have licenses. I'm a "licensed" apprentice, so I guess that's my license?


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

kaboler said:


> Well, in truth, quality of work would be a lot better if there were a reqirement to have licenses.


How do you figure that?

A license does not do the work, it is still up to the skill and standards of the installer to do it right.

I happen to live in any area that licensing has been required for a long time but still see hack work often.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

BBQ said:


> How do you figure that?
> 
> A license does not do the work, it is still up to the skill and standards of the installer to do it right.
> 
> I happen to live in any area that licensing has been required for a long time but still see hack work often.





If anything an inspection by a level 3 or whatever certified person is what should be required not a license. Even an experienced licensed guy can make a mistake.


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

BBQ said:


> How do you figure that?
> 
> A license does not do the work, it is still up to the skill and standards of the installer to do it right.
> 
> I happen to live in any area that licensing has been required for a long time but still see hack work often.


I think licensed workers probably do better work than unlicensed. It's just so easy for people to try to do it themselves. I was just in a commercial job that was obvously wired up by someone unlicensed.

A lot of BX runs (you know BX? maybe it's canadian) with no anti-shorts, the conductors not actually twisted together, the whole shop run off basically 1 breaker (which had 2 conductors coming out of it, 1 for the lights, 1 for the holes, erm, plugs, receptacles I mean!) just complete dog****.

I would say that the work done was unlicensed. Maybe I've seen bad licensed work, but that was beyond anything I've seen. I think unlicensed work has unlicensed written all over it.


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## BobBob (Aug 14, 2010)

*unlicensed*

I'll admit. I am unlicensed and proud of it. 

I have been doing work for 20 yrs with NO LICENSE! 

I have wired the following with NO LICENSE

-Houses
-Condo's
-Small Warehouses
-Hospital Equiptment
-3 Phase machinery
-Restaurants
-ETC

Where I live you don't need a license to do resi up to 3 family.

Where I live you NEED a license to do commercial. 

Where I live my inspection agency let's me pull permits for large commercial with NO LICENSE. They don't care and don't enforce. If the state takes over they will be out of business. If I get caught I get a 1,000 fine or something lame like that. I will keep on working without a license and do quality work and pass inspections and won't lose any sleep over it!!!!! 
:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## Kill O Watt (Dec 30, 2010)

Licensed or not, hack work is hack work. Period. A hack can do what it takes to pass a test to get licensed. I am unlicensed, and have been doing work for 17+ years, and I take great pride in my work. Kaboler, you're an idiot. Just because you see hack work, doesn't mean it was by someone without a license. I've seen ALOT worse work than you described, done by licensed electricans. Just the fact that you come here and make a statement like that is absurd. Ever here the phrase, "think before you speak"? Or is that only American....


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