# Pool bonding question



## JohnJ65 (May 8, 2008)

Hope someone can shed some light on this for me. 

I went to look at a job where the customer is having an in ground pool installed. 
The customer states that the pool installation company wants the customer to hire the electrician, and the pool installer will do all of the pool bonding using that electrical contractors permit. 
The electrical contractor would run the feed to the pool panel, wire up the provided pool panel, pump motor and timer. 

Is this a common practice for the pool company to do the bonding?

I can only imagine they want to do it themselves to expedite the job. 

Is this a risk worth taking or a job to pass on? 

Thank you for any input, John.


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Around here many of them do the bonding but I make them get their own permit-- they legally cannot use your license unless they are on your payroll.

Personally unless you inspect their work then you are taking a big risk but the good side of this is that they generally know more about the bonding then most electricians


----------



## JohnJ65 (May 8, 2008)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Around here many of them do the bonding but I make them get their own permit-- they legally cannot use your license unless they are on your payroll.
> 
> Personally unless you inspect their work then you are taking a big risk but the good side of this is that they generally know more about the bonding then most electricians


I was also thinking they could not work under my license without being on my payroll. I'm looking at risk vs reward on this one and it's looking like too much risk for this sparky. If they do it wrong it's my behind in the courtroom.

Yea they would know more about the bonding then I would being as I have never done a pool.


----------



## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Around here many of them do the bonding but I make them get their own permit-- they legally cannot use your license unless they are on your payroll.
> 
> Personally unless you inspect their work then you are taking a big risk but the good side of this is that they generally know more about the bonding then most electricians


Dennis, do you specialize in pools & hot tubs? I always see you posting on this subject. Nobody else around here seems to be able to make heads or tales out of art. 680 -- including me! :laughing:


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

MHElectric said:


> Dennis, do you specialize in pools & hot tubs? I always see you posting on this subject. Nobody else around here seems to be able to make heads or tales out of art. 680 -- including me! :laughing:


Not at all. I have done a few here and there over the years so I wanted to familiarize myself with it. I just keep reading art. 680 and reading posts on it. It is a difficult article to fully understand and probably not written very well.


----------



## nof123 (May 14, 2011)

We do a lot of pools and I haven't heard of a pool company doing the bond. I'd tell the h/o its a safety thing, and an electricians job. Just show up after they are done and before the landscaping.


----------



## bullet (Feb 7, 2015)

Around here pool bonding needs to be inspected. Doesn't matter who did the bonding as long as the electrical contractor file permits for the pool. Depending on what type of In ground pool your installing there is different types of bonding. If you want me to go further into this I will but it is explained in 680. The major thing is "equipotential bonding grid" make sure there is the same potential from all metal parts of the pool. If they are using a plastic niche Led light they do not need to pull a ground to the niche. If metal niche, they need a #6 ground that comes up to the deck box and lands on ground bar with EGC from load side of transformer for light feed. There's a lot more to it if there is cement being poured around the pool 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## JohnJ65 (May 8, 2008)

I have decided to pass on the job, but I'm going to do more research on how to properly wire and bond a pool so I will be able to do one in the future without numerous red tags. 

So is there anything that needs to be done electrical wise during the building of an in ground pool, or can it all be done after construction and before landscape?

I guess I'm looking for a work schedule for the electrical portion of a pool. 

Thanks, John.


----------



## AllWIRES (Apr 10, 2014)

Watch the Mike Holt video on equal potential planes... Or maybe it was grounding and bonding. He explains it well. I'm pretty sure it's equal potential planes video, which is free on his website.


----------



## bullet (Feb 7, 2015)

It depends on how the pool is being installed and what materials are being used to install it. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

MHElectric said:


> Dennis, do you specialize in pools & hot tubs? I always see you posting on this subject. Nobody else around here seems to be able to make heads or tales out of art. 680 -- including me! :laughing:


I've done a bunch of pools. Give an example out of 680 that is confusing.


----------



## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

RIVETER said:


> I've done a bunch of pools. Give an example out of 680 that is confusing.


How about you telling us how you did those pools?


----------



## bullet (Feb 7, 2015)

It's listed in 680.. 4 corners of the pool and every piece of metal (railings, pool niche) needs to have a #8 solid copper conductor bonding jumper that split bolts to a #8 solid copper ring that goes around the pool 3' off. If there is cement walkway poured on the envelope of the pool this ring needs to bond to the rebar with connectors designed for bonding to rebar. The contractor has to make a grid with the rebar and bonding has to be inspected by the county before being poured. A #8 solid copper conductor comes from ring to the pool equipment and bonds the casings of the pool pump/heater and any other outer metal shell of electrical components that water flows through. If there is a metal pool niche light already installed in existing pool where outside niche is innaccesible, a #8 conductor needs to go from inside the niche To the deck box then the load side EGC going to the light will also bond on the same ground bar at the deck box, and so shall the load side from the transformer EGC. All of these steps creating equipotential bonding grid or equipotential plane.. That pretty much sums up in the ground pools.. 

Maybe RIVETER has something to add .. This is the way I have bonded pools and passed inspections in the last 6 years under 2008 nec code 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## JohnJ65 (May 8, 2008)

Thank you for your post Bullet, I have been scouring the internet for pictures of pool bonding and have been watching the Mike Holt videos. 

It seems that for the majority of pools we would need to make a couple of trips to the job site over the course of the project to get all of the bonding done. I don't see bonding the pool fixture after the concrete is poured.


----------



## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

Bullet mentioned the grid having to be 3' from the pool. That's true if it is a conductive pool or has a rebar grid. But for non conductive pools (fiberglass) or if the rebar has a non conductive coating you just circle the pool with a #8 and instead of 3' you go 18-22" from the edge of the pool. You have to bond to the metal supports (if it has any) in four uniformly spaced points, usually just a jumper from the ring at those points.

Here is a pool I did a couple of years ago that was being redone. It was having the gunite sprayed over the existing shell. New lights were being installed. I bonded the lights and also the old rebar to the new. Here are a few pictures, hope they help.

bare #8 to the rebar



#8 to the outside of niche



The insulated #8 EGC required for PVC to the inside of niche from the junction box with ground bars/lugs



The #8 covered in potting compound that is required. some confuse this #8 with the equipotential bonding #8. They are two separate things. One is just bonding the metal around/in the pool and in this case the outside metal housing of the niche, and the insulated #8 is an EGC bonding jumper to the inside of the light niche.


----------



## bullet (Feb 7, 2015)

Bond the niche. Very important. And old existing pools most of them aren't bonded. So we pull bonds through with Lv pool light and bond at deck box


----------



## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

Very informative. Thanks guys.

Every year I keep telling myself that I need to take a class on pools & spas for my continued ed. So far, I haven't been able to find someone offering that near me.


----------



## Atombomb (Apr 29, 2015)

just wanted to point out nobody mentioned the code update from 2008, article 680.26(c) pool water bonding, you have to bond a certain amount of pool water. here is the article: where none of the bonded parts is in direct connection with the pool water, the pool water shall be in direct contact with an approved corrosion resistant conductive surface that exposes not less than 5800 mm² (9 in.²) of surface area to the pool at all times. the conductive surface shall be located where it is not exposed to physical damage or dislodgement during usual pool activities, and it shall be bonded in accordance with 680.26(b)


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

bullet said:


> It's listed in 680.. 4 corners of the pool and every piece of metal (railings, pool niche) needs to have a #8 solid copper conductor bonding jumper that split bolts to a #8 solid copper ring that goes around the pool 3' off. If there is cement walkway poured on the envelope of the pool this ring needs to bond to the rebar with connectors designed for bonding to rebar. The contractor has to make a grid with the rebar and bonding has to be inspected by the county before being poured. A #8 solid copper conductor comes from ring to the pool equipment and bonds the casings of the pool pump/heater and any other outer metal shell of electrical components that water flows through. If there is a metal pool niche light already installed in existing pool where outside niche is innaccesible, a #8 conductor needs to go from inside the niche To the deck box then the load side EGC going to the light will also bond on the same ground bar at the deck box, and so shall the load side from the transformer EGC. All of these steps creating equipotential bonding grid or equipotential plane.. That pretty much sums up in the ground pools..
> 
> Maybe RIVETER has something to add .. This is the way I have bonded pools and passed inspections in the last 6 years under 2008 nec code
> 
> ...


The grid is no longer necessary. A number 8 copper conductor encirles the pool 18-24 inches from the waters edge and 4-6 inches below subgrade is all that is needed for the equipotential bonding


----------



## JohnJ65 (May 8, 2008)

Correct me if I am wrong on this. I have been reading about the underwater fixtures and making a cheat sheet with lots of details and drawings to help me if I do a pool in the future.

There seems to be a couple of types:
Wet niche, dry niche, and low voltage (under 15volts) 
These all have to go to a deck box which has to be at least 4" above finish grade where it is spliced to the building wire from the panel or switch. The deck box needs to be close enough for the factory light cable to reach it, and it looks like they are either 30' or 50' long. 

A #8 stranded and insulated copper wire needs to be in the pipe with the cable for the light and terminates on the inside of the niche to a lug that should be factory installed, then the connection inside the light needs to be covered with a potting compound to keep it from corroding. The #8 will then terminate to the isolated ground bar within the deck box. 

The outside of the niche fixture shell will have a factory installed lug or stud where a #8 solid copper wire will need to terminate and then be tied into the equipotential bonding grid. 

Questions: 
Do you have to leave enough cable looped in the deck box to be able to remove the fixture for service?

Does the equipotential bond need to go to the deck box and terminate on the isolated ground bar inside? 

Does a dry niche fixture need the #8 inside the fixture covered in potting compound? 

Does a low voltage (under 15volts) need the #8 in the conduit to the niche fixture?

Am I assuming right that a dry niche fixture does not have water inside the fixture shell and the conduit and a wet niche does? If so does a wet niche need anything special to keep the water from leaking around the conduit hub at the fixture shell?

I know I'm high maintenance, but when I want to learn something I just need to know everything. Thank you for all of the information.


----------



## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

JohnJ65 said:


> Correct me if I am wrong on this. I have been reading about the underwater fixtures and making a cheat sheet with lots of details and drawings to help me if I do a pool in the future.
> 
> There seems to be a couple of types:
> Wet niche, dry niche, and low voltage (under 15volts)
> ...


Answers in *bold*.


----------



## te12co2w (Jun 3, 2007)

MHElectric said:


> Dennis, do you specialize in pools & hot tubs? I always see you posting on this subject. Nobody else around here seems to be able to make heads or tales out of art. 680 -- including me! :laughing:


 I agree


----------

