# Unions or not?



## Soymilk (May 18, 2018)

The old hands all seem to believe that union is the way to go.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Hiring electricians is like going to the dog pound looking for a nice dog.
If you pick out a random dog, that's like hiring off the street, yeah he will be your friend if you feed him. That's just what a dog does.
But, dogs are at the pound for a reason. Maybe a small percent are givin up for circumstances out of its control. 
Could be the best dog, house broken, does tricks, nice to people, good protection, even knows how to bring you a beer from the fridge but, the owner died, the owner had to move and they don't allow dogs, but. It's a good dog with training.
The other dogs have no training, picked up off the street or maybe was turned in for peeing in the house, stealing food or is a biter. 

You are better off if you can get a dog with formal training that was turned in by the owner with a solid history.

There are good dogs that get old and can't do tricks like a young dog but they can still bark and ride good in the truck. Until slowly they seem to sleep more and can't seem to go up stairs very well, start losing their appetite and wag their tails a bit less.
You know it is going to hurt your soul to do what you need to do but, every dog is an era in your life.
You take him out for his last cheeseburger, bring his favorite toy and go to the park for that last fond memory. :crying:

But, this dog isn't terminated.
He retires with a nice pension, has enough money to COBRA pay his healthcare until he is 67 1/2. Hangs out with the other old dogs, they talk about the glory days running the pack and chasing rabbits. They play golf, go on cruises.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

If I might add though...

Some dogs bail on their owners while they're still 
young and spry...

They say screw doin tricks and chores for that old
owner...tricks & chores are for suckers.

They run the neighborhood , gather up a few other 
dogs who have wised up to the dog catchers wily 
ways and set out on the life of Riley.

When they get old , those that are still around
meet up , play cards and end up on somebodies
wall tapestry.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

some dogs get great training (if they are paying attention). Yet sometimes the dogs don't want to pay attention, but if they are related (nod, nod, wink, wink) to other older, bigger, fatter dogs, they get a pass. As some of the other threads indicate, some of those (worthless, yet equally paid) dogs spend years doing nothing but going out for coffee and lunch runs, and don't know anything despite their great training.

well, enough about dogs.

the union training is the best, so there's a career there if you want, and good benefits, which are harder to find, but not non existant, non union.

the bottom line is what you want to do after training. If you are a self starter whichever way you go you can be successful. If you are in an area where the union rules, go union. If all the work in your area is non union, you might want to go that route. Most places I've been, the big work is mostly union, but that's just me.

just my 02, not the final word


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

Bundlz said:


> What do you guys think of unions like the Ibew? Is trying to join them a good thing or should I steer clear of them?


That depends. Just like jobs. Here in the Carolinas you'd be hard pressed to even find a union. The big trick is getting on with somebody not doing residential work. Why? Simple: better pay and MUCH safer. All the industrial horror stories I can think of pale compared to shoddy safety and workmanship in residential. Never mind pay. Not all outfits are that way just like not all painters are alcoholics but you asked a general question. And industrial/commercial/municipal often comes with benefits, often full benefits which is rare in the construction business.

In local 98 (Philadelphia) the problem is the "99 weeks" or used to be more like 26 weeks. In that area by state law if you work 2 weeks you qualify for unemployment. So let's see. First the unions pay full benefits, not the contractor which is a plus but makes the nonunion contractors match it. So first thing is they paid as of 10 years ago $35 an hour but the union takes 20% off the top to put in Democrat pockets that vote against union worker interests and for your benefits so now it's like $28. Then 98 is strictly first in first out so you put your name on the list and you get a job like everyone else. So you only get to work 6 months out of the year because there are so many guys on full time unemployment as a career but need their 2 weeks every 6 months so they can keep their regular jobs. So that $28 is more like $14/hour before taxes. And there is the whole apprentuce/journeyman thing so you start out at say $15 per hour but you got to take out 20% and 50% again so it's less than minimum wage. Or you can go nonunion and start out at $12-15 an hour and go up to $20-25 with benefits within a couple years with experience and some outfits even keep good hands at least at 30 hours when times are slow just so they don't wander off elsewhere. So it's really simple math.

That's for one union. In Florida the unemployment career doesn't pay very well so their trade unions are at least on a level playing field with nonunion jobs in the Tampa area.

For company unions it's a different story. Let me out it this way. A union is going to take at least 15% off the top for dues even in an unaffiliated union. That's a big price to pay for something that is there to protect hourly workers from class A holes in management. They promise much better pay but in the real world it tends to be an empty promise. Today crappy management behavior is rarely tolerated in any nonunion shop and employment laws protect against most of it. It's actually much easier to treat employees horribly in a union shop and strongly encouraged. People in management can still target you and treat you like crap whether it's union or not, they just do it in different ways. The reason the union exists though is because at some point in the past the management treated their people so crummy they were willing to take a huge pay cut to put a stop to what was going on. Once a company has a union the law is written in a way that actually pits both sides against each other and perpetuates the system. It actually encourages firemen to be jerks to the hourly workers.

The big thing to remember is this. People almost never quit because of the companies they work for. The number one reason they quit is because of how the boss treats them. Treat them good and even if the pay, hours, and benefits are lousy they will stay. Be a jerk and no amount of pay will keep them around. Every time I've been in that situation it came down to how long I could stick it out. Find a good boss and you'll be happy.

My current hours are rotten. I took a 15% pay cut and the benefits are just ok. But I'm not planning on leaving because I also took a 90% cut in stress and got rid of one of the biggest jerks in the state for a boss. My boss now let's me do what I'm good at and supports me and vice versa. I don't miss the Canadian style pay and benefits while working in the US for a Fortune 100 company at their largest site in the world for one minute.



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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Our working dues are 3%.
It pays to operate the hall.
It's a great deal for us


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

I didn't bother highlighting the portions that hit home 
for me cause it's basically 90% true to my experiences 
as well.

You just described working at the Cleveland General 
Mail Facility (US Postal Service) TO A TEE...except I
would have to add in the racism component (and I 
mean reverse racism toward whites).

The part about management still effs with union personel
in different ways..spot on.

The problem is , you can describe this a hundred 
different ways and a young guy will not get it until 
he experiences it , so I suggest go ahead dive into 
it while your young ...get ot out of your system 
now so you can gain proper perspective on what's 
important in life and then be able to decide early if you
want to continue working for A-holes or move on .


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## Lone Crapshooter (Nov 8, 2008)

First DON'T JOIN ANY THAT DOES NOT HAVE ANY RETIREMENT BENIFITS. I belonged to the IAM (Machinist and Areospace Workers ) our dues at the end was $800.00 a year and did not even get a magazine. No benefits of any kind for member retirees but the union manangement got a nice retirement package that I PAID FOR.

The international came in and TOLD US that our hall was being merged with 2 other halls and said thank you very much for your $100,000 dollar bank account.

I was laid off could have probably stayed knew where I was going to end up and I did not want to go there and I do not regret becoming a contractor once again. Got almost a $700.00 a week raise and a lot more freedom and I have never heard THE CONTRACT SAYS in the last 3 years.

The hall did hot know that I was laid off in November got a call in February wanting to know if I got my retirement card. I told then that I had not I and I was I was not interisted . Got a second call and they explained that it would cost $1.00 plus back dues from when I was laid off until I got the card. I told them that Barack Hillary and Bernie have gotten my last dollar and NEVER NEVER NEVER to disturbe me again.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

I grew up in this trade and have worked both sides of the fence.

You can't beat Union benefits as a general rule.

Yes I had two decent non union jobs BUT no matter the contractor ALL my Union jobs had the same great pay scale and benefits with no hassle or haggling involved!

Been retired going on 9 years and still haven't touched my retirement!


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

it depends on your area, the more important thing to look for is the best contractor to work for, where you will be taught well, treated well and they do things safely. i suggest going to the union hall and training director and talking to the people there to get a feel for the type of people they are, if they seem like bums i would look for non-union, ask them if they are taking applicants, what the work outlook is, how many members they have, how many apprentices they take a year, what there jurisdiction is (the questions aren't important its just something to use for discussion to get a feel for the people). if you don't know anyone in the local industry i suggest coming up with a list of the contractors in the area and look for a family owned company that does work for good companies around, in most states you can look up what projects a contractor has pulled permits for. you can always go union down the road if you initially go non-union


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Been retired going on 9 years and still haven't touched my retirement!



I ran a retirement tax calculator before the start of this new year.
It was very favorable in regards to withdrawals.
So, just for the heck of it, I yanked a nice little chunk.
I put half in my checking account and half in my savings account.
Just for the heck of it! :wink:


Actually I really did it for a specific reason. I had a friend die last year shortly after he retired. He never got to spend one cent of his lifelong savings.
Its not going to happen to me. I'm gonna have some fun until I die.


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

Southeast Power said:


> Hiring electricians is like going to the dog pound looking for a nice dog.
> If you pick out a random dog, that's like hiring off the street, yeah he will be your friend if you feed him. That's just what a dog does.
> But, dogs are at the pound for a reason. Maybe a small percent are givin up for circumstances out of its control.
> Could be the best dog, house broken, does tricks, nice to people, good protection, even knows how to bring you a beer from the fridge but, the owner died, the owner had to move and they don't allow dogs, but. It's a good dog with training.
> ...


Sorry to hear about your dog. If you get another one, get a "rescue" dog, they're the most loyal, and deserving of a second chance.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

joebanana said:


> Sorry to hear about your dog. If you get another one, get a "rescue" dog, they're the most loyal, and deserving of a second chance.


Agreed,
All my dogs were/are pound puppies :smile::smile:


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

John Valdes said:


> I ran a retirement tax calculator before the start of this new year.
> It was very favorable in regards to withdrawals.
> So, just for the heck of it, I yanked a nice little chunk.
> I put half in my checking account and half in my savings account.
> ...


I have all the toys I have ever wanted and then some always have, the benefit of working more than one job at the same time. Often two jobs, side jobbing, and having reserve duty.

My retirement should stay right where it is until I'm gone then it will go to those that I really love and bring them some pleasure after I'm dust.

The greatest thing I leave behind are the children I created and those that they gave life to.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

The first thing I'd recommend is that you educate yourself about your personal finances if necessary so you fully understand the dollar value of paid health care, retirement / pension / annuity. The union guys tend to understand this, for good reason. Often non-union shops will come close in wages, but very seldom do they match the union benefits and apprentice program. 

The unions are bigger and get more work in big metropolitan areas with strong economies, especially if those areas are reliable democratic districts. In those places, the union electricians are usually pretty happy - well paid, little to no time unemployed / travelling. 

In places where union work is more sparse, the layoffs and / or travel can make the union less of a deal. Of course around here the laid off union guys collect unemployment and do non-union side jobs under the table in the off season, some don't mind at all. 

Relocating to a new area is harder or at least more complicated if you're in the union. 

If you have the opportunity to go in the union it's almost always the way to go, but it's never going to be an option for everyone.


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## Soymilk (May 18, 2018)

splatz said:


> Relocating to a new area is harder or at least more complicated if you're in the union.


Is that so? I would have thought being union would make transferring to a different branch simpler.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

I never fully understood why we southers are supposed hate unions. Are we that self loathing or just want to be wildly independant and broke MFers??


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

Southeast Power said:


> I never fully understood why we southers are supposed hate unions. Are we that self loathing or just want to be wildly independant and broke MFers??


It's the remnants of the time in Southern history when the aristocracy of the South did not have to pay wages for labor.

http://www.labornotes.org/blogs/2017/08/racist-who-pioneered-right-work-laws

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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

Southeast Power said:


> I never fully understood why we southers are supposed hate unions. Are we that self loathing or just want to be wildly independant and broke MFers??


I came from the western side of Michigan. They're about as anti-union as the East side is pro union. I grew up hating anything about unions, military folks, Democrats, and so on.

Guess what happened? I grew up. I worked in mining for over 20 years. I've done 5 years in a foundry. Some are union, some aren't. I've used union and nonunion contractors on jobs. I've been a laborer on multiple jobs in union plants. I've been grieved ONCE. Might be a hint there about my character.

Let me repeat this loud and clear...any company or industry that has a union got that way because they deserved it. There are unions in the South, all over the South. They are there for the same reason they are in the North.

A company or trade was unionized because at some point management treated their workers so bad that those workers were willing to accept all the negative things that go along with a union like the pay cut or paying for politicians that work 100% of the time against the interests of the working man. Once they are established, the contract and grievance system pits them both against each other by design, making it a self perpetuating system.

There is nothing wrong with unions or union members. I've seen the ugly side of both union and nonunion. I'm totally neutral. I get the same results in both situations. It's all about how you treat people. Other than some rules about what you can and can't talk about with certain people, and I'm always up front why.

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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

Our working dues are 3.5%. It's effectively $1.01 less an hour. I've calculated my total dues average about 200-220 a month including monthly dues. 

But we don't have a health insurance premium and very low deductibles, job security, retirement plan and freedom to quit or take a layoff without having to update a resume.

Any non union shop around here that could match the benefits would be rare. To beat that, would be truly exceptional.

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## Switchgear277 (Mar 18, 2017)

Being in the electrical feild in nj/ nyc/ Tri state area I never understood this question .

It was never a matter of making a decision witch one was better than the other it’s a matter of if you can get into the ibew or have to settle for non union.

Theirs no question witch one is better it’s already known the ibew wage and benefits are extremely better than the non union sector .

But it is hard to get into the unions in nj / nyc area 


I wrked 6 years non union and every 
Company I wrked for dong even come close to any thing the ibew offers in this area of the country not even close


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## Lone Crapshooter (Nov 8, 2008)

No matter how good all of the union benefits and pay are if you cannot get in the locals they might as well not exist.

I was interviewed by the local in my area 5 times and never could make it. Talked to the organizer when I got back Texas at the erging of a friends son and was told that I was over qualified to join the IBEW. 
I had been through the ABC program and was a apprenticeship instructor and could show all of my appernticeship transcripts.

LC


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## Bundlz (May 19, 2018)

Appreciate it guys


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## reggieelectric (Jun 4, 2018)

Bundlz said:


> What do you guys think of unions like the Ibew? Is trying to join them a good thing or should I steer clear of them?


I can tell you that joining the union has made my family and I a lot more comfortable and happy with our life. I make a great living and have great benefits, my education was free of charge, and I have had the opportunity to work on some great jobs, and have learned things in my first 5 years that many non union veterans don't get to experience. I'm not saying that non-union bad, but you need to look into the area your in, talk with the organizers at your local and get a bigger picture.


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