# Example of a Union hurting itself?



## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

How is there any comparison between here and Norway??

I thank God we have the Jones Act, if we didn't it would be all third-world nationals and a few white collar management types running all these jobs in our territorial waters. Its that way everywhere else, except Norway it sounds like.


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

miller_elex said:


> How is there any comparison between here and Norway??
> 
> I thank God we have the Jones Act, if we didn't it would be all third-world nationals and a few white collar management types running all these jobs in our territorial waters. Its that way everywhere else, except Norway it sounds like.


He is just trying to make a point about the labor side trying to hang the management side out to dry, it is all relevant. I know a little about this from guys (welders, fitters, and electricians) that have come over to our side from the offshore rigs. They all tell you how rough it is to be away from home and out on a cold open ocean. It takes a specific type of guy to enjoy that work. I bet Navy / Marine vets would fit right in with little scowling.


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

actually the point is that labor is organizing it's way out of work...the companies are willing to spend big money to come up with technologies to eliminate labor...

maybe it's just a perception....


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

oldman said:


> actually the point is that labor is organizing it's way out of work...the companies are willing to spend big money to come up with technologies to eliminate labor...
> 
> maybe it's just a perception....


To me it looks like there is no reason for the labor force to use the shortage of labor to rule the way their contract will go.


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

randomkiller said:


> To me it looks like there is no reason for the labor force to use the shortage of labor to rule the way their contract will go.


and the end result is unmanned rigs...but you are correct...


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## ideal1 (Aug 3, 2008)

WOW, I'm saying this in a nice way "old man" no problems, I'm being nice. Have you worked off shore? Lived 300 days with a bunch a dudes on a boat? Worked in 12 foot seas like the gulf of Mexico, or worked in 40 foot seas in the Atlantic.

I have. 

Being an electrician is an easy job, safe, simple. The "real" job is be a soldier.

As far as un maned rigs ever, NEVER, EVER, NO WAY, NOT EVER, been there dun that, not ever gona happen. What you read is silly, but I LOVE U!!!!!!!! oldman

In America Unions ( construction skilled trade unions) will NEVER fold. No way.

Its an education thing, all ways has bin, all ways will be. 

I’ll write more later but……….I’ve had a profitable NON-union shop for 8 years.


And I wasted 8 years, I wasted all of my workers time and my personal time. Who cares about the money. Humans only live so long the time is important.

Unions rock, because they are ORGANIZED, the workers need to man up and step to the plate, be productive, demand top dollar, and get STUFF DUN!!!!


Then the benefits kick in.

“old man”, you post great things, everybody that reads your posts benefits form your knowledge.

This is the deal…………..your post talked about oil companies spending money

The American worker rulz…..more later:yes:


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## ideal1 (Aug 3, 2008)

WOW, I'm saying this in a nice way "old man" no problems, I'm being nice. Have you worked off shore? Lived 300 days with a bunch a dudes on a boat? Worked in 12 foot seas like the gulf of Mexico, or worked in 40 foot seas in the Atlantic.

I have. 

Being an electrician is an easy job, safe, simple. The "real" job is be a soldier.

As far as un maned rigs ever, NEVER, EVER, NO WAY, NOT EVER, be there dun that, not ever gona happen. What you read is silly, but I LOVE U!!!!!!!!

In America Unions ( construction skilled trade unions) will NEVER fold. No way.

Its an education thing, all ways has bin, all ways will be. 

I’ll write more later but……….I’ve had a profitable NON-union shop for 8 years.


And I wasted 8 years, I wasted all of my workers time and my personal time. Who cares about the money. Humans only live so long the time is important.

Unions rock, because they are ORGANIZED, the workers need to man up and step to the plate, be productive, demand top dollar, and get STUFF DUN!!!!


Then the benefits kick in.

“old man”, you post great things, everybody that reads your posts benefits form your knowledge.

This is the deal…………..your post talked about oil companies spending mon

The American worker rulz…..more later


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## nap (Dec 26, 2007)

oldman said:


> actually the point is that labor is organizing it's way out of work...the companies are willing to spend big money to come up with technologies to eliminate labor...
> 
> maybe it's just a perception....


not really. everything changes as technology allows it too. Man has been, and always will be replaced when the tech allows it. Machines offer many advantages over a human but there are just some jobs that a machine cannot do, yet. 

The companies will spend the money to modernize regardless of what the workers do. That is what we call "progress"




> i'm not saying cave....i'm saying don't be greedy...that goes for bosses as well...but at the end of the day, the man who creates the job is worth more than the man who does the job...sorry, fact of life...


Really. I look at it as more of a symbiotic relationship but in reality, the guy creating the job is more expendable than the manpower to do the work. If one guy does not create this job, another will, maybe even one of the workers he previously employed. So, what happens when there are no workers to do the work this guy created? Nothing, like in no work, no production. It is easier to replace the one than it is the many.


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

ideal1 said:


> WOW, I'm saying this in a nice way "old man" no problems, I'm being nice. Have you worked off shore? Lived 300 days with a bunch a dudes on a boat? Worked in 12 foot seas like the gulf of Mexico, or worked in 40 foot seas in the Atlantic.
> 
> I have.


until jobs like this become mandatory, then I will assume most everyone there is by freewill due to the compensation they are receiving...

i'm not saying work for free....i'm asking if they are hurting themselves in the big picture....


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

nap said:


> not really. everything changes as technology allows it too. Man has been, and always will be replaced when the tech allows it. Machines offer many advantages over a human but there are just some jobs that a machine cannot do, yet.
> 
> The companies will spend the money to modernize regardless of what the workers do. That is what we call "progress"
> 
> ...


you and I have philosophical differences...i've been on both sides of the fence, and from my experience, labor is easy to find...skilled labor is not...but labor is easy...finding people who can think their way through this world and generate jobs (profitable jobs)...not easy at all...

there will always be people who can perform more, with less...the days of labor being necessary are dwindling...i'm not saying this is good, just that it is...

there will always be a need for some labor, but like I said, 25 years ago in NYC it was a deck a day with 25 electricians...today, the same project is a deck a day with less than 10 electricians....in 20 years, it'll be 1 electrician and 2 laborers....

my main question was, and is, are todays unions hurting themselves more than helping?


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## nap (Dec 26, 2007)

oldman said:


> my main question was, and is, are todays unions hurting themselves more than helping?


No. progress will come regardless of what the union is doing so sometimes the best thing one can do is get what you can get while you can get it.

In the big picture and the long run, it may affect the timeline but it will not change the end result.

as to labor v. skilled labor

I was speaking to skilled labor. There is less and less union labor but even saying that, when you can get something to do the work of a mason tender, give me a call. It ain't happening in my lifetime.


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

nap said:


> as to labor v. skilled labor
> 
> I was speaking to skilled labor. There is less and less union labor but even saying that, when you can get something to do the work of a mason tender, give me a call. It ain't happening in my lifetime.


no need to replace the tender....just use different products that require less labor...that's all that occurs...now, instead of a warehouse completely make out of block, they build it out of steel...

when thinks gets financially out of control, it becomes cost effective to look at the alternatives...when can was $1/gal, no one was willing to spend the extra money for a hybrid vehicle...at $4/gal, they couldn't build enough hybrids...

it's all about cost vs. benefit...when the cost becomes to high, it becomes feasible to look at alternative methods....


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

A good example is precast tip up concrete walls in lieu of masonry or high lifts and electric scaffolds less laborers for the masons.


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