# AFCI nuisance trip break through - LED retrofit culprit



## JoeSparky (Mar 25, 2010)

Nope! Led trim was fine. Arc Fault was Sh1t. Months of diagnosing? Tear that garbage out and put in a proven technology Q115.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

LED drivers and any electronic power supplies need to meet the FCC 15 B standard. If you look, more and more Drivers are coming with the listing. One has to understand the workings of the AFCI and what causes the tripping. It could be anything in the house that creates noise outside of NEMA and FCC standards. Look at the LED lights made several years ago and then look at the newer versions. I went through several Federal government jobs where the LED lights were rejected because of the RFI. Also high end appliances with computer controls, low voltage electronic transformers, your laptop power supply. It is no longer the skill saw and vacuum that causes the tripping.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

It's insane to spend months diagnosing a problem. And I would never in a million years try the things that you mentioned. Just pretend like your house is like every other house and install a perfectly safe standard $4 breaker.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

HackWork said:


> It's insane to spend months diagnosing a problem. And I would never in a million years try the things that you mentioned. Just pretend like your house is like every other house and install a perfectly safe standard $4 breaker.


I understand and agree with what you say but we have to protect people from their own stupidly. You have been around so I am sure you have seen what some people do. I have been in attics where the electrician ran the cables over the ceiling joists which can be allowed. What does the home owner do? Puts plywood down and stores; strollers, suitcases, furniture, boxes, whatever he can on top. Does he protect the wires? No. Squirrels and mice chew the wires. Over time a 4 amp arc develops which is too small to trip the breaker and a fire could start. People install cheap extension cords under carpets. When I was doing inspections, quite a few fires started in the attic. I would estimate about once a month for me. I do not know what others found. If I were to build another house, I would use steel MC cable. From the things I and many others saw, I could see the need for these breakers if they perform correctly.
Driving 75 mph on the highway in itself is not dangerous. An inexperienced driver driving at 75 mph is. So they arbitrarily make a law for 55 mph and hope it works.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

kb1jb1 said:


> I understand and agree with what you say but we have to protect people from their own stupidly. You have been around so I am sure you have seen what some people do. I have been in attics where the electrician ran the cables over the ceiling joists which can be allowed. What does the home owner do? Puts plywood down and stores; strollers, suitcases, furniture, boxes, whatever he can on top. Does he protect the wires? No. Squirrels and mice chew the wires. Over time a 4 amp arc develops which is too small to trip the breaker and a fire could start. People install cheap extension cords under carpets. When I was doing inspections, quite a few fires started in the attic. I would estimate about once a month for me. I do not know what others found. If I were to build another house, I would use steel MC cable. From the things I and many others saw, I could see the need for these breakers if they perform correctly.
> Driving 75 mph on the highway in itself is not dangerous. An inexperienced driver driving at 75 mph is. So they arbitrarily make a law for 55 mph and hope it works.


I hear what you are saying, and I agree with your sentiment.

But I can't avoid thinking of the fact that for every house here with AFCI breakers, there are tens of thousands without them that have lasted just fine for the last 70-100+ years.

In this instance I am not talking about not using AFCI breakers at all. Just to remove the one that is causing such a hard to find nuisance trip. 

By what the OP described, I would tell the homeowner upfront that it could take many hours and thousands of dollars to find this issue, or I could replace the breaker for $5 extra and be done with it.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

I just think people are getting stupider. Is that a word? I am sure we as electricians see the things people do.. Especially when people come from third world countries. Do research and see how many people die by using their cell phone while taking a bath while it is plugged in. Or using a drop light in the shower. I've seen people rig a standard extension cord for 480 volts three phase. 

We should start a thread or book about the stupid things we see.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

kb1jb1 said:


> I understand and agree with what you say but we have to protect people from their own stupidly. You have been around so I am sure you have seen what some people do. I have been in attics where the electrician ran the cables over the ceiling joists which can be allowed. What does the home owner do? Puts plywood down and stores; strollers, suitcases, furniture, boxes, whatever he can on top. Does he protect the wires? No. Squirrels and mice chew the wires. Over time a 4 amp arc develops which is too small to trip the breaker and a fire could start.


That's why the NEC never should have pursued AFCI protection and simply mandated 5 ma GFCI or 30 mA GFPE at circuit origin. GFCI/GFPE still offers superior protection for the whole circuit without all this insane nuisance tripping from proprietary arc detection logic that nobody knows how it works. I would drop my anti-AFCI position and embrace that change immediately.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

kb1jb1 said:


> If I were to build another house, I would use steel MC cable. From the things I and many others saw, I could see the need for these breakers if they perform correctly.


A side note - I'd say that using an armored cable in attics would improve electrical safety more than AFCI has. 

I ask this every so often, but I am interested in any stories people have about AFCIs saving the day. I think there have been just a few posted on this forum, someone has a tripping AFCI and it turns out there was a wiring fault that needed attention. My suspicion is that the newer "improved" ones that don't nuisance trip, just don't do jack.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Another thing I was thinking about with AFCI. If the industry tries to just learn a lesson here. 

Seems like the NFPA relies on UL / NRTLs to determine that products the code requires are SAFE and it's pretty effective. After the AFCI debacle, maybe they should go a little further, and have the listing determine EFFICACY as well. 

I am not sure whether NEMA or UL would develop and maintain standards for what a product has to do to be considered effective. Is there any such standard for arc fault technology? We know what it is for GFCI and we as consumers know how to test it... 

This way the manufacturers don't get a pass to dream up safety products, get them in the code, and make money on them, without making them WORK.


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## Forge Boyz (Nov 7, 2014)

MTW said:


> That's why the NEC never should have pursued AFCI protection and simply mandated 5 ma GFCI or 30 mA GFPE at circuit origin. GFCI/GFPE still offers superior protection for the whole circuit without all this insane nuisance tripping from proprietary arc detection logic that nobody knows how it works. I would drop my anti-AFCI position and embrace that change immediately.


I suspect what is more likely to happen is having GFCI protection required everywhere in addition to AFCI. Then we will never know if arc faults actually work.

Sent from my SM-G970U1 using Tapatalk


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Forge Boyz said:


> I suspect what is more likely to happen is having GFCI protection required everywhere in addition to AFCI. Then we will never know if arc faults actually work.



That's what I've been saying about DF breakers all along, the AFCI part will never get a chance to do its job because the GFCI part will do all the work.  That being said, I have investigated Square D DF's nuisance tripping on brand new homes and it was the AFCI part that was causing the tripping. So they work all right, just not the way we expect them to.


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## andymidplains (Feb 14, 2012)

splatz said:


> A side note - I'd say that using an armored cable in attics would improve electrical safety more than AFCI has.
> 
> I ask this every so often, but I am interested in any stories people have about AFCIs saving the day. I think there have been just a few posted on this forum, someone has a tripping AFCI and it turns out there was a wiring fault that needed attention. My suspicion is that the newer "improved" ones that don't nuisance trip, just don't do jack.


I'm not sure if the AFCI saved the day, but we turned on a new circuit for the first time in a new house. There were 4 LED cans and some outlets, and any time there was more than one LED can-light on, the AFCI tripped. The AFCI was switched out, and the new one tripped under the same conditions. We started isolating fixtures, and disconnecting the last outlet in the circuit corrected the problem. The only thing that we could imagine was that whenever the neutral wire in that outlet saw more than a minimum of potential, that current jumped to ground inside the outlet and tripped the AFCI. New outlet, no more problems.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

splatz said:


> Another thing I was thinking about with AFCI. If the industry tries to just learn a lesson here.
> 
> Seems like the NFPA relies on UL / NRTLs to determine that products the code requires are SAFE and it's pretty effective. After the AFCI debacle, maybe they should go a little further, and have the listing determine EFFICACY as well.
> 
> ...


There are standards for the AFCI. NEMA and the FCC sets them and there is extensive electronic engineering in the breakers. _Unfortunately the testing is left to the electricians. _ Do people remember when GFCI first came out in the 1970s? The same comments about AFCI today are the same about GFCIs yesterday. A lot of the problems lie with the way the houses are wired and the newer electronic equipment on the market that are not built to the NEMA and FCC standards.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

It seems that a lot of people are resistant to using the AFCI. Face it. They are in the NEC and get use to it. Instead of fighting, find out why they are really giving a false trip. They do make AFCI testers and I know several electricians who go around tracing out why they are tripping. Yes it is VERY annoying and should not be our job to test them. They have electronics and like all electronics, they are subject to RFI and line interference. That is why NEMA sets standards. Read the back of all electronic devices and what does it say? Conforms to FCC standards........ If it does not say it then it can cause the nuisance tripping.
Ask the old timers about when GFCI first came out in the mid 1970s. For over 10 years we complained about them. Nothing but problems. Also the smoke detectors. False alarms left and right. Today would you live in a house without GFCI or smoke detectors?
Be patient and open up the wallets ( $$$ ) for all the new changes coming with GFCI and AFCI.

I was one of the anti AFCI people but now I have a mixed opinion. Fortunately I do little residential work.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

This is interesting but I don't really count it since we don't know whether there was really anything wrong with that receptacle. If it was a ground fault inside as you suspect, GFCI would have detected it, and AFCI is not helpful. 



andymidplains said:


> I'm not sure if the AFCI saved the day, but we turned on a new circuit for the first time in a new house. There were 4 LED cans and some outlets, and any time there was more than one LED can-light on, the AFCI tripped. The AFCI was switched out, and the new one tripped under the same conditions. We started isolating fixtures, and disconnecting the last outlet in the circuit corrected the problem. The only thing that we could imagine was that whenever the neutral wire in that outlet saw more than a minimum of potential, that current jumped to ground inside the outlet and tripped the AFCI. New outlet, no more problems.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

kb1jb1 said:


> There are standards for the AFCI. NEMA and the FCC sets them and there is extensive electronic engineering in the breakers. _Unfortunately the testing is left to the electricians. _ Do people remember when GFCI first came out in the 1970s? The same comments about AFCI today are the same about GFCIs yesterday. A lot of the problems lie with the way the houses are wired and the newer electronic equipment on the market that are not built to the NEMA and FCC standards.


I am not sure about when GFCIs started in bathrooms, a quick google seems like maybe 1971. I can't go back quite that far but I can say in the late 70's early 80s GFCIs were not troublesome. 

Now that's not to say people didn't get pissed about GFCI trips. To this day people get annoyed when GFCI's trip, such as carpenters getting mad when they drag a beat up old cord in a puddle and they lose power. But that's different, they are annoyed even though there's an actual hazard, it's not the GFCI's fault. 

Surely you've seen the youtube videos where people deliberately generate arcs that the AFCI fails to detect. There wasn't youtube around back in the 70's, but there weren't people creating dead shorts to ground and showing how the GFCI doesn't trip. I have asked this before, are there new videos showing how AFCI's trip as they should with these arcs? 

The manufacturer's videos showing AFCI in action used higher than real-life voltages. Why do you think they did that? They did have deceptive advertising back in the 70's, but it was not for GFCI products.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

@kb1jb1 - 

_"It seems that a lot of people are resistant to using the AFCI. Face it. They are in the NEC and get use to it."_

With all due respect that doesn't sound like a great attitude. Thomas Jefferson to George Washington: "Come on George. Face it. There's a tax on tea now. Just pay it or drink a Coke if you don't like it." 

_"They have electronics and like all electronics, they are subject to RFI and line interference. That is why NEMA sets standards. Read the back of all electronic devices and what does it say? Conforms to FCC standards........ If it does not say it then it can cause the nuisance tripping."_

I am afraid you'll have to provide quite a bit more before I'd accept rouge radio emissions as the principle root cause of AFCI false trips. I am very, very skeptical. 

The AFCI breaker is in a metal box (panel tub). If additional shielding is needed, it could be built in by the manufacturer. Or are you saying its coming in on the wires, the wires are acting as an antenna? That would be so low energy it would be something an intelligent arc fault should ignore. 

If the breaker is vulnerable to radio emissions, even a neighbor's bluetooth speaker from Alibaba.com could trip your arc faults. A terrorist could build a transmitter and cause blackouts. Just not plausible.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

kb1jb1 said:


> It seems that a lot of people are resistant to using the AFCI. Face it. They are in the NEC and get use to it. Instead of fighting, find out why they are really giving a false trip.


 This is a bad attitude, and this thread is a perfect example of that. Read it and see how long it could have taken to find the problem causing the stupid AFCI to nuisance trip. Now either the electrician is going to eat that time, or charge the homeowner in which they are going to be pissed. No one wins. And the homeowner is no safer than if he had standard breakers like everyone else.



> Ask the old timers about when GFCI first came out in the mid 1970s. For over 10 years we complained about them. Nothing but problems. Also the smoke detectors. False alarms left and right.


GFCIs actually provide a great function. So do smoke detectors. AFCIs have not been proven to provide any valuable function or safety. They were snake oil that were put into code without any actual evidence. Just people saying "That sounds like a good idea".



> Today would you live in a house without GFCI or smoke detectors?


 Yes, I do right now and so do *b*illions of people who are magically still here. 

Now tell those people that if they build a house they need to spend $75 on GFCI outlets and another $75 on smoke detectors, which have both been proven to work, and they won't mind. But tell them that they have to spend $1,200 on AFCI breakers that are not proven to work and could very well give them annoying issues that are expensive to fix, and they won't be too happy. But the manufacturers will be. And some of the good citizens will not only grin and bear it, but will defend this atrocity.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

andymidplains said:


> I'm not sure if the AFCI saved the day, but we turned on a new circuit for the first time in a new house. There were 4 LED cans and some outlets, and any time there was more than one LED can-light on, the AFCI tripped. The AFCI was switched out, and the new one tripped under the same conditions. We started isolating fixtures, and disconnecting the last outlet in the circuit corrected the problem. The only thing that we could imagine was that whenever the neutral wire in that outlet saw more than a minimum of potential, that current jumped to ground inside the outlet and tripped the AFCI. New outlet, no more problems.


The AFCI definitely did not save the day. The _GFPE component_ of the AFCI saved the day. That's the only part of it that actually works but some manufacturers have removed GFPE from their AFCI breakers and rely solely on the mumbo jumbo logic to "detect arcs".


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## Lightsmith (Oct 8, 2010)

AFCI protects against a bad installation but the downside is that they can trip even when there is not actual arcing taking place. No free lunch. 

I dislike the attitude that says we should put in AFCI breakers to protect against an improper wiring job by the electrician. If is like the situation in California where all the new homes now are required to have fire sprinklers to that some drunk idiot who falls asleep while smoking in their recliner does not burn the house down. 

This is industry driven to increase profits. The pipe and valve manufacturers took a beating in 2008-2010 with the collapse of new construction after the banksters took down the economy and they needed to goose saless and so they spent a bundle to get the CA state legislature to mandate fire sprinkler systems. Quick return on the money spent with the increase in residential use of these capitalists' products. 

Bad side effect will be when there is a large wildfire sweeping through houses with the fire sprinklers as it will cut the available water supply at the hydrants needed by the fire fighters and increase the amount of destruction.


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

Lightsmith said:


> AFCI protects against a bad installation but not on our planet


FIFY :biggrin:


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

splatz said:


> @kb1jb1 -
> 
> _"It seems that a lot of people are resistant to using the AFCI. Face it. They are in the NEC and get use to it."_
> 
> ...


I am sorry I was not clear with my statement. I have been spending a lot of time with on line CEUs for my certifications and my brain is cooked at times..

The RFI deals with communications. I was working at several airports and the LED lights were causing interference with the ground to air communications. The FAA was going around with some device checking which Lights were causing the problem. One small airport had to move the antenna array. 

NEMA put out a bulletin about, " Recommendations on AFCI Home Electrical Product Compatilbilty" ( ABP-2-2011 ) which explains most of what I said. It talked about " allowable conducted and radiated emissions back into the electrical system." I am not an engineer but the article explains why there could be nuisance tripping.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

I appreciate this follow up, thanks! 



kb1jb1 said:


> The RFI deals with communications. I was working at several airports and the LED lights were causing interference with the ground to air communications. The FAA was going around with some device checking which Lights were causing the problem. One small airport had to move the antenna array.


That's definitely understandable; RFI interfering with RF - wireless communications - is something we've dealt with forever, but with products coming in from Chinese fly by night manufacturing, it's getting worse. 



> NEMA put out a bulletin about, " Recommendations on AFCI Home Electrical Product Compatilbilty" ( ABP-2-2011 ) which explains most of what I said. It talked about " allowable conducted and radiated emissions back into the electrical system."


I found and will attach the bulletin. This is what the bulletin has to say about emissions: 



NEMA ABP 2-2011 said:


> The Federal Communications Commission (FCC) requires certain HEPs connected to the ac power line
> to not exceed a maximum level of conducted and radiated emissions back into the power line (refer to
> FCC 47 CFR Part 15 Class B and Part 18 Consumer ISM Equipment). HEP manufacturers must consider
> following these guidelines as requirements in their designs in order to control the amount of noise
> ...


(HEPs = home electrical products )

The bulletin is saying that high frequency emissions - _radiated and conducted_ - can wind up on the power line - the sawtooth seen on the attached picture - and AFCI devices can't distinguish which it comes from. NEMA's position is that HEP manufacturers ought to make products that don't confuse AFCIs with this noise, even above and beyond the FCC rules. 

But on the other hand, I am betting that HEP makers would put the onus on NEMA: the AFCI manufacturers have to develop smarter devices. There are literally millions, probably billions of HEPs in the field, many of which predate AFCI. The makers of the new technology have to accommodate the world, the world shouldn't be expected to change to accommodate the new technology.


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## bostonPedro (Nov 14, 2017)

splatz said:


> I appreciate this follow up, thanks!
> 
> The bulletin is saying that high frequency emissions - _radiated and conducted_ - can wind up on the power line - the sawtooth seen on the attached picture - and AFCI devices can't distinguish which it comes from. NEMA's position is that HEP manufacturers ought to make products that don't confuse AFCIs with this noise, even above and beyond the FCC rules.
> 
> But on the other hand, I am betting that HEP makers would put the onus on NEMA: the AFCI manufacturers have to develop smarter devices. There are literally millions, probably billions of HEPs in the field, many of which predate AFCI. The makers of the new technology have to accommodate the world, the world shouldn't be expected to change to accommodate the new technology.



The PDF is a lot to read but thanks for posting that.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

I agree with Hax here. The $5 breaker doesn't have these problems.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Splatz, Thanks for posting it. I could not figure out how to do it. It was a good point that the AFCI people want the " world change for it ". Like the GFCI when it first came on the market, it will be 20 years of experimenting before the bugs are worked out. It will be at our expense.


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## CTshockhazard (Aug 28, 2009)

I could be wrong as I wasn't in the trade at the time, but I don't think that GFCI's were ever required by code _before_ all of the manufacturers had an actual product.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

GFCI have been around since the mid 1970s but not required until maybe the late 1970s early 1980s. I remember going with my father to change a tripping GFCI and all his complaining. I can remember the blue and white Chevy truck, the house, and the complaining but that is all. Many electricians were complaining back then. All my code books are at my office now so dates are approximate.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

kb1jb1 said:


> GFCI have been around since the mid 1970s but not required until maybe the late 1970s early 1980s. I remember going with my father to change a tripping GFCI and all his complaining. I can remember the blue and white Chevy truck, the house, and the complaining but that is all. Many electricians were complaining back then. All my code books are at my office now so dates are approximate.



With perfect hindsight we can see that their complaining about GFCI's was unwarranted. 

With AFCI's we now have almost 20 years of hindsight and our complaining about them is totally justified. They are a scam product, plain and simple. 

Rather than just voicing my disapproval, I fully support dropping all AFCI rules in the NEC and replacing them with GFCI protection for all receptacle circuits and 30 mA GFPE for lighting circuits to avoid nuisance tripping or losing lighting due to a valid GFCI trip. I support exceptions for things like furnaces, boilers and other heating equipment. However, I DO NOT support the 2020 changes for GFCI protection for all 240 volt appliances. There's no justification for that whatsoever.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

MTW said:


> With perfect hindsight we can see that their complaining about GFCI's was unwarranted.
> 
> With AFCI's we now have almost 20 years of hindsight and our complaining about them is totally justified. They are a scam product, plain and simple.
> 
> Rather than just voicing my disapproval, I fully support dropping all AFCI rules in the NEC and replacing them with GFCI protection for all receptacle circuits and 30 mA GFPE for lighting circuits to avoid nuisance tripping or losing lighting due to a valid GFCI trip. I support exceptions for things like furnaces, boilers and other heating equipment. However, I DO NOT support the 2020 changes for GFCI protection for all 240 volt appliances. There's no justification for that whatsoever.


Sure there is.....it's contained in envelopes discretely passed to the code making panel members........


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

micromind said:


> Sure there is.....it's contained in envelopes discretely passed to the code making panel members........


You know the sad thing? I'm not so sure that there are envelopes of cash being passed around to CMP members in order to make these horrible decisions, I think they may do it for free.

1/3 of the CMP is made up of people on the manufacturer's payrolls, we know that, they don't even try to hide it. The other 2/3 is made up of idiots with no real world experience who hear a good idea and go along with it... as well as people who partake in the quid pro quo game of "_I'll vote for your interest if you vote for mine_".


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

micromind said:


> Sure there is.....it's contained in envelopes discretely passed to the code making panel members........


Sorry, I got a little idealistic there and thought the code rules were still made with substantiation. I forgot that stopped happening decades ago.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> You know the sad thing? I'm not so sure that there are envelopes of cash being passed around to CMP members in order to make these horrible decisions, I think they may do it for free.
> 
> 1/3 of the CMP is made up of people on the manufacturer's payrolls, we know that, they don't even try to hide it. The other 2/3 is made up of idiots with no real world experience who hear a good idea and go along with it... as well as people who partake in the quid pro quo game of "_I'll vote for your interest if you vote for mine_".


I tend to agree. Just look at some of the shills who have come here over the years defending the AFCI. I doubt they could even wire an AFCI protected circuit.

That's why I've said many times that manufacturers should have no part of the NEC whatsoever. Until that blatant conflict of interest is removed, I will have nothing but contempt for the NEC.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Remember the saying, " Its for the children" when talking about increased taxes for the schools? Then 80 % of the budget goes to the staff salary and benefits. 
Well now , "Its for public safety" and the money goes to the manufactures.
If they worked as well as the manufactures say I would be all for them. I was at the supply house Friday and saw a box of about 200 defective AFCI breakers. I am glad I do very little residential work.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

kb1jb1 said:


> Remember the saying, " Its for the children" when talking about increased taxes for the schools? Then 80 % of the budget goes to the staff salary and benefits.
> Well now , "Its for public safety" and the money goes to the manufactures.
> If they worked as well as the manufactures say I would be all for them. I was at the supply house Friday and saw a box of about 200 defective AFCI breakers. I am glad I do very little residential work.



Last year I worked for an EC that wired many new houses and I did a lot of troubleshooting for call backs. Sometimes it was a genuine wiring issue but most of the time it was an unknown cause that I could only narrow down to a brand new appliance.  We also had a large box of AFCI's that we were sending back.


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## phamousgrey (Mar 22, 2018)

Despite many crappy feelings towards afci's, i agree, but the one main thing i Do agree upon is the Gfci of everything else where possible. lmfao, ppl are gonna kill themselves in the bathtub one way or another, but it shouldnt be bcause of anything we installed. lmfao....


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Just use Eaton panels. I my humble opinion, they got around all the trouble with afci's by just removing afci's out of the breakers and installing the test button anyway so they can collect the $45 bucks . I never have one false trip any more for the last three years . The ones I buy don't have gfi built into them either. Customer pays, not me. 


Insurance companies should be forced to produce data on how well this whole scam is protecting property from electrical fires. It's been long enough now. There should be accurate charts showing rates of fires before and after afci became mandated in residential . If those are available to the public now, then fine , all of us should shut up and get used to afci's. Other wise the damn code people better wake the hell up and dump the requirements and admit they were wrong and stupid for passing such crappy codes onto the electrical trade. One way or another. In this one instance that has us all up in arms, the op ought to just put in a damn old style breaker and be done with it. If there is a short circuit the breaker should trip, they old ones were pretty good at that.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

MTW said:


> Last year I worked for an EC that wired many new houses and I did a lot of troubleshooting for call backs. Sometimes it was a genuine wiring issue but most of the time it was an unknown cause that I could only narrow down to a brand new appliance.  We also had a large box of AFCI's that we were sending back.



Tell us the brand of panels please. And were they combo afci/gfci breakers or just combination series/ parallel afci breakers. Fess up. My guess is Siemens.


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

macmikeman said:


> Insurance companies should be forced to produce data on how well this whole scam is protecting property from electrical fires. It's been long enough now. There should be accurate charts showing rates of fires before and after afci became mandated in residential .


I agree

But I think that statistics are like polls, parameters can be adjusted to show desired results:vs_rain:


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

macmikeman said:


> Tell us the brand of panels please. And were they combo afci/gfci breakers or just combination series/ parallel afci breakers. Fess up. My guess is Siemens.


100% Homeline and they were the DF and regular AF breakers. I've since switched to Eaton BR for the very reason you mentioned - no more GFPE in the AFCI breakers, plus I like the plug on neutral and normal sized breakers they have.


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## tjb (Feb 12, 2014)

The arc (or offensive waveform) - whether produced by HEP, or a non-FCC-15-compliant LED driver, Keurig, or whatever - can be on a different circuit, different leg or phase, even different panel and still trip a random AFCI breaker. It travels along the neutral in those cases. 

Many culprits include coffee makers (Keurig), the aforementioned non-FCC-15-compliant LED drivers (some puck light drivers have the compliance noted in the literature but nowhere on the equipment itself and come to find out they’re not compliant), and older power strips.

In many circumstances, adding a TPSS/TVSS to the service/main panel will make it go away. 

The manufacturers are also updating their breakers often, sometimes more than once per year, so make sure your breakers are the latest and greatest (it’s currently generation C IIRC). I’m trying to find the image for Siemens breakers, but the difference is in sticker color (silver can white), or green/black stripe versus blue, or test button color. They get together and discuss latest waveforms and such, and update their breakers, just like new phones get released every year. 

Siemens techs have a test breaker which will Bluetooth to the phones in real-time what the circuit is doing or seeing, will log waveforms, and can be very helpful finding issues. The current generation of testing kits or devices are obsolete for the latest generation of breakers. 

The breaker itself stores the waveforms that tripped it and can be sent to their labs, along with a list of homeowner equipment and model numbers, where the lab will poll the breaker and find the offending waveforms, compare with models and what’s on file, and come up with the culprit. 

A Siemens rep could also come and do the testing in person. 

I’m not affiliated with Siemens in any way, shape, or form - I’ve just been down this road a few times.

There are serious legal repercussions to removing a legally-mandated protection from a home just because swapping the AFCI breaker for a plain one makes you happy. The house burns down for ANY quasi-electrical reason, and you’re on the hook. 

Remember, “nuisance” is a legal/technical term, not just PITA that’s made you irritated. It’s like the lemon laws many states have for cars. You don’t just have a lot of problems with a car and that makes it a lemon. No, they have to replace the exact same part three times and still fail to be a lemon. Same with nuisance tripping.

I’d be very interested in seeing whether any of you or your contractors have written up any kind of documentation paper trail, or official company written policy, describing and recording steps taken to address “nuisance tripping” in a person’s home before you were legally allowed to remove that code-mandated protection from their home. Honestly. 

PS, I hate AFCIs and wish they’d just go away.


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## Djea3 (Mar 8, 2019)

[/QUOTE]
can be on a different circuit, different leg or phase, even different panel and still trip a random AFCI breaker. It travels along the neutral in those cases.
[/QUOTE]

In one house there was a dedicated new 20 amp AFCI circuit installed (with permit) to handle the customer servers in his house. Whenever ANY motor and some other devices were turned on, such as hair dryer, vacuum cleaner, table saws, circular saws you name it. etc, (except refrigerator and stove/exhaust fans) the new AFCI would blow, costing him huge $$$$. The customer mentioned this day one on the job. It didn't seem to matter what circuit anyone used.
Long story but we were there for kitchen remodel.

The customer got mad at the GC and took it out on us electricians. I was lead and the boss was there. Customer began to claim that the circuit issue was caused by something we did, he was yelling at me. I waited until he was finished. Then turned to the crew and said "pack it up boys, this job is over. We are not going to be made responsible for every electrical problem in this house. Especially when the problems were described to me day one on the job".

The boss' jaw dropped. The customer stood there...his jaw dropped. Then the customer began apologizing, telling me that I was right and he shouldn't have talked to me that way..etc...etc...etc. I told the customer, that if he had asked nicely, his problem might have fixed itself by the time we left. I then said, If you had wanted it done immediately you could have added the problem to the contract. He looked down and said yeah, I guess you are right.

The boys had packed up already...I told them they could go back to work.
I tried 2 other AFCI breakers, then went and got a $4 breaker from the truck and installed it and all was good from then on. I had a $45 piece of GARBAGE to throw away. The panel looked clean and I had already checked ground and tightness of all screws etc. Not worth the time to trouble shoot beyond that.

THE REAL ISSUE AND CULPRIT:
I do NOT care one bit about some code that makes even professionals violate it because of the limitation of technology and engineering. THAT is the safety issue, someone will find a bypass that is more dangerous as fools do. 

AND THE BIGGER ISSUE:
TELL ME OF ANY ONE PERSON YOU KNOW THAT TESTS AFCI AND GFCI DEVICES MONTHLY? TESTING MUST BE DONE MONTHLY TO BE SAFE AND MEET THE INSTALL AND MAINTENANCE AS WELL AS INSURANCE REQUIREMENTS!!!!
TESTING NEVER HAPPENS!! NO, NO ONE EVER TESTS MONTHLY, NOT EVER. YOU DON"T AND I DON"T, so tell me if that makes any sense to you? This is insurance companies controlling the industry to make themselves money at extreme cost to all.

FINAL PROOF:
If AFCI/GFCI is so great, why aren't they REQUIRED in all 120V circuits of all NEW COMMERCIAL BUILDINGS?
It is because they do not work without nuisance tripping and without monthly testing. 

NO COMPANY is going to allow either to happen and they (collectively) will shut down the NEC when that starts to be contemplated.


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## mofos be cray (Nov 14, 2016)

Djea3 said:


> AND THE BIGGER ISSUE:
> TELL ME OF ANY ONE PERSON YOU KNOW THAT TESTS AFCI AND GFCI DEVICES MONTHLY? TESTING MUST BE DONE MONTHLY TO BE SAFE AND MEET THE INSTALL AND MAINTENANCE AS WELL AS INSURANCE REQUIREMENTS!!!!
> TESTING NEVER HAPPENS!! NO, NO ONE EVER TESTS MONTHLY, NOT EVER. YOU DON"T AND I DON"T, so tell me if that makes any sense to you? This is insurance companies controlling the industry to make themselves money at extreme cost to all.


Many of these devices are self test. Don't get me wrong, I think afcis are stupid but...


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Perhaps someone will come up with a better way to protect wires in the attic, or where ever, from squirrels chewing them. Or the home owner storing carriages, cribs, and other stuff in the attic on top of the unprotected cables. Until then, AFCI are here. I have been on three jobs this year where we had to rewire the second floor because of the squirrels chewed the wires bare. Any movement and they would have sparked out. If it was a long cable run the circuit breaker might have seen the short as a load or it could have been a high resistance arc.. Rather then fight the AFCI issue, try to find out what the problems are. The days of blenders, vacuums, and skill saws tripping them out are almost gone. It is the non conforming imported digital or electronic devices that we have to worry about. I just found out the new " smart meters" are causing nuisance tripping.


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## taglicious (Feb 8, 2020)

So much to quote off of here. 
Thank you guys!


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

taglicious said:


> So much to quote off of here.
> Thank you guys!


All of the yes


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## taglicious (Feb 8, 2020)

kb1jb1 said:


> Perhaps someone will come up with a better way to protect wires in the attic, or where ever, from squirrels chewing them. Or the home owner storing carriages, cribs, and other stuff in the attic on top of the unprotected cables. Until then, AFCI are here. I have been on three jobs this year where we had to rewire the second floor because of the squirrels chewed the wires bare. Any movement and they would have sparked out. If it was a long cable run the circuit breaker might have seen the short as a load or it could have been a high resistance arc.. Rather then fight the AFCI issue, try to find out what the problems are. The days of blenders, vacuums, and skill saws tripping them out are almost gone. It is the non conforming imported digital or electronic devices that we have to worry about. I just found out the new " smart meters" are causing nuisance tripping.


When you're roughing in a house, you can talk about protection for your wires because of rodents. Sell it baby. I've run into that, especially in and around Port areas and backwoods. The rodents do amazing amounts of damage. Either emt or an hvac system setup. I bought sheers and a bender to do this just 2 times. Sometimes if a homeowner sees the result and reasoning, They will be more than willing to allow it. Louvered venting too. An extra sale baby


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## Greg Sparkovich (Sep 15, 2007)

I use GFCIs, AFCIs, and DF breakers all the time ...often as a diagnostic tool to find shared neutral circuits. I highly recommend them for any houses with knob & tube wiring.
Most of the faults I have seen in new work are actually ground faults due to poor technique -the most common is the ground wire folding forward and hitting a neutral when a receptacle is pushed back into the wall -which is another reason to tape receptacles...
So I agree that the GF tech in AFCI breakers produces most of what people call "nuisance trips".

However, I have definitely found faulty switches, dimmers, receptacles and bad connections in wire nuts.


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## Greg Sparkovich (Sep 15, 2007)

taglicious said:


> When you're roughing in a house, you can talk about protection for your wires because of rodents. Sell it baby. I've run into that, especially in and around Port areas and backwoods. The rodents do amazing amounts of damage. Either emt or an hvac system setup. I bought sheers and a bender to do this just 2 times. Sometimes if a homeowner sees the result and reasoning, They will be more than willing to allow it. Louvered venting too. An extra sale baby


My house. I can believe the squirrels didn't kill themselves chewing up all the NM cables in my gables.


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