# sizing for 13kw range



## 3DDesign (Oct 25, 2014)

What's the make and model#?


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## ElectricMon (Jan 17, 2018)

Is aluminum Ser an option it'll save a ton


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## mikewillnot (Apr 2, 2013)

Why would the make & model matter? Mfgr specs say 13kw at 240v.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Look at TABLE 220.55

You only need a 40 amp circuit


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

8 kw + 5% of 8w= 8.4kw

8.4kw/240= 35 however there is a section that requires the minimum range circuit of range 8kw or larger to be 40 amps minimum


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Here is how you do the calc.

Look at column C in T. 220.55. It states max demand for 12kw we can use 8kw.

Note one states for each kw over 12kw we multiple by 5%. 13-12 = 1 kw

1 kw x5% = 5%

8kw + (5% x 8wk) = 8.4 kw


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## matt1124 (Aug 23, 2011)

When sizing for a range, standard sizes are 30" and 36" wide.


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## 3DDesign (Oct 25, 2014)

mikewillnot said:


> Why would the make & model matter? Mfgr specs say 13kw at 240v.


With that attitude I won't tell you.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

mikewillnot said:


> Why would the make & model matter? Mfgr specs say 13kw at 240v.


Because it could be hard wired and junction box placement could be critical. You always want appliance specs. A Sub Zero fridge is a good example. It has a small cavity in the back for the cord and the receptacle location has to be exact.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Any kitchen appliance. Never assume...


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## mikewillnot (Apr 2, 2013)

It wasn't an attitude. It was a question.


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## pudge565 (Dec 8, 2007)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Look at TABLE 220.55
> 
> You only need a 40 amp circuit


What he said!



Dennis Alwon said:


> 8 kw + 5% of 8w= 8.4kw
> 
> 8.4kw/240= 35 however there is a section that requires the minimum range circuit of range 8kw or larger to be 40 amps minimum


210.19(A)(3) it is actually 8.75 kw and above not 8 kw.



Dennis Alwon said:


> Here is how you do the calc.
> 
> Look at column C in T. 220.55. It states max demand for 12kw we can use 8kw.
> 
> ...


Boom nailed it!



3DDesign said:


> With that attitude I won't tell you.


Make and model has no impact on circuit rating at all it is all by the kw rating.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Look at TABLE 220.55
> 
> You only need a 40 amp circuit


This is for figuring the Demand Factor on a service load calc.

Unless I misunderstand the OP ,The OP is asking about the
circuit feeder for a specific appliance (plate rating of 13 kw.

If I'm doing this , I follow the spec sheet on that appliance and
still feed and breaker it per spec sheet.

IMO , the Demand Factor is a totally different issue.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

lighterup said:


> This is for figuring the Demand Factor on a service load calc.
> 
> Unless I misunderstand the OP ,The OP is asking about the
> circuit feeder for a specific appliance (plate rating of 13 kw.
> ...


You're the one who nailed it.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

lighterup said:


> This is for figuring the Demand Factor on a service load calc.
> 
> Unless I misunderstand the OP ,The OP is asking about the
> circuit feeder for a specific appliance (plate rating of 13 kw.
> ...


Okay, show me where that is stated please. The section is calc for services , branch circuit and feeders. Where does it state that it cannot be used for branch circuits


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Okay, show me where that is stated please. The section is calc for services , branch circuit and feeders. Where does it state that it cannot be used for branch circuits


It only makes sense. If all the burners are on and the oven is cranked to max, you want that on a 40A breaker? For a demand load calc, yes, for a dedicated branch circuit, no.

Lighterup is right - read the installation manual.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Okay, show me where that is stated please. The section is calc for services , branch circuit and feeders. Where does it state that it cannot be used for branch circuits


You show me where it states we are supposed 
to ignore specification sheets and plate ratings.

For gawds sakes..look at the chapter your quoting.

Ever hear of the word "CONTEXT" when reading?


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

lighterup said:


> You show me where it states we are supposed
> to ignore specification sheets and plate ratings.
> 
> For gawds sakes..look at the chapter your quoting.
> ...



Yes the chapter is call *Branch Circuit*, Feeder and Service Calculation

Look at Note 4.



> 4. Branch-Circuit Load. It shall be permissible to calculate the branch-circuit load for one range in accordance with Table 220.55.


No need to get testy....:smile: We are all here to learn

I believe that nameplates are often just kw ratings and the op stated 13kw and did not mention nameplate. 

So context of the chapter is calculation for branch circuits also.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

So if you go with 40 amps the stove wiring is only a fire hazard on holidays?


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

An electric range that size would never reach 40 amps of load. That is why the code allows you to size it at 8 kw for the first 12 kw. 
Turn everything on at the same time and measure the current it draws at the panel. All the elements cycle on and off as they reach the temp they are set at.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

MechanicalDVR said:


> So if you go with 40 amps the stove wiring is only a fire hazard on holidays?


I am sure somewhere a breaker has blown on a holiday but I have never heard about it when it wasn't a bad breaker.

Ovens are T-stat control. The eyes are never on high and all of them on at the same time. I have never had an issue with mine when we had an older whirlpool which had 4 burners, an oven and where the drawer is usually placed there was a second oven... Never tripped a 40 amp breaker

BTW, we regularly had 15-25 people at the house for Thanksgiving day


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

99cents said:


> It only makes sense. If all the burners are on and the oven is cranked to max, you want that on a 40A breaker? For a demand load calc, yes, for a dedicated branch circuit, no.
> 
> Lighterup is right - read the installation manual.


I disagree with you. Read my earlier post.

The code states we can use the Table. If the specs call for a larger size then fine but that was not mentioned in the op's statement. I gave the answer to the question that was given..


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

Don't any of you guys cook ??? :blink:

OK... Holiday season ...

You turn on the oven full blast ... both elements turn on (the broil element turns on to speed up heating)

AND, you turn on ALL 4 burners at high.

OK, so you're a bit over the 40A .... Will the thermal function in the breaker trip before at least one or 2 of the elements heat up ??

:no:


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

99cents said:


> It only makes sense. If all the burners are on and the oven is cranked to max, you want that on a 40A breaker? For a demand load calc, yes, for a dedicated branch circuit, no.
> 
> Lighterup is right - read the installation manual.


99 :surprise:

Our code allows a 12Kw range on a 40A !!!

Where's your head :vs_cocktail:


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I am sure somewhere a breaker has blown on a holiday but I have never heard about it when it wasn't a bad breaker.
> 
> Ovens are T-stat control. The eyes are never on high and all of them on at the same time. I have never had an issue with mine when we had an older whirlpool which had 4 burners, an oven and where the drawer is usually placed there was a second oven... Never tripped a 40 amp breaker
> 
> BTW, we regularly had 15-25 people at the house for Thanksgiving day


I've never had an electric stove in a house I owned that was on a 50 or 60 amp breaker or fuses.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

emtnut said:


> 99 :surprise:
> 
> Our code allows a 12Kw range on a 40A !!!
> 
> Where's your head :vs_cocktail:


The nec allows a 40 amp circuit on a 16kw range. Now you may not want to do that but it is compliant

8kw for 12 kw plus 5% for each of the 4 kw over 12.---20%

8kw + (20% of 8kw )= 9.6 kw

9600/240 = 40 amps


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

MechanicalDVR said:


> I've never had an electric stove in a house I owned that was on a 50 or 60 amp breaker or fuses.


We have wired a few that stated 50 amps.

I have a dual fuel range by Bosc and the specs call for 50 amps-- that is just for the oven... I did it but no way does it need 50 amps for a single oven. I never checked the kw.

Now for a single oven or just a cooktop you must use the nameplate


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

I have wired a hundred 12 kw ranges in my life and I never used more than 40 amps. I am certain 13 kw will do fine at 40 amps


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

Dennis Alwon said:


> The nec allows a 40 amp circuit on a 16kw range. Now you may not want to do that but it is compliant
> 
> 8kw for 12 kw plus 5% for each of the 4 kw over 12.---20%
> 
> ...


Ours is 8kw for up to 12kw, plus 40% the amount over 12kw

13kw range still no problem


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

When I do a kitchen, I ask the builder, kitchen designer, homeowner, etc, for the specs. I'm interested in what the manufacturer calls for. Where am I putting the receptacle, jb, etc. Does it need a neutral? What size circuit? For the ordinary range, I don't hear of people having trouble with either a 40 or 50 amp circuit. I've never seen anything need more than 50 amps, but when you think you've seen it all, you haven't and that's why I ask every time.


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## 3DDesign (Oct 25, 2014)

mikewillnot said:


> It wasn't an attitude. It was a question.


The reason is, that the specs usually show the amperage. One I installed recently was 15KW but the specs showed a 40 amp circuit was required. I ran 8/3 copper on a 40 amp breaker. The other reason is whether to use a 4 wire pigtail or direct wire. Also, most ranges allow space in the center at floor level, others have a drawing showing a specific location.


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## 3DDesign (Oct 25, 2014)

pudge565 said:


> Make and model has no impact on circuit rating at all it is all by the kw rating.


Read the specs on this GE range. 

POWER / RATINGS
*Amp Rating at 208V	40
Amp Rating at 240V	40*
Bake Wattage	2650W Upper / 2650W Lower
Broiler Wattage	3000W Upper / 3600W Lower
Convection Wattage	2500W
*KW Rating at 208V	12.3
KW Rating at 240V	15.5
*

Would you use 40 amp breaker & 8/3 cu or calculate it based on 15.5 KW?


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

3DDesign said:


> Read the specs on this GE range.
> 
> POWER / RATINGS
> *Amp Rating at 208V	40
> ...



I would use whatever I had a piece of that was handy - either 8/3 or 6/3. Code is fine with #8

So if the nameplate says 40 amps and you use #6 and install a 50 amp breaker aren't you then doing a non compliant install?:surprise:


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## 3DDesign (Oct 25, 2014)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I would use whatever I had a piece of that was handy - either 8/3 or 6/3. Code is fine with #8
> 
> So if the nameplate says 40 amps and you use #6 and install a 50 amp breaker aren't you then doing a non compliant install?:surprise:


Installation instructions for that same model: 
"A range cord rated at 40 amps with 125/250 minimum volt range is required. A 50 amp range cord is not recommended but if used, it should be marked for use with nominal 1 1/4" ” diameter openings. Care should be taken to center the cable and strain relief within the knockout hole to keep the edge from damaging the cable"

According to that, I would just use 8/3 and 40 amp.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

3DDesign said:


> Installation instructions for that same model:
> "A range cord rated at 40 amps with 125/250 minimum volt range is required. A 50 amp range cord is not recommended but if used, it should be marked for use with nominal 1 1/4" ” diameter openings. Care should be taken to center the cable and strain relief within the knockout hole to keep the edge from damaging the cable"
> 
> According to that, I would just use 8/3 and 40 amp.


That is ridiculous. Almost all Range Receptacles are rated 40/50 amps

BTW, I would never direct wire a free standing range. Not even sure if that is permitted


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

There is absolutely no reason not to use a 50 amp cord and plug.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

emtnut said:


> 99 :surprise:
> 
> Our code allows a 12Kw range on a 40A !!!
> 
> Where's your head :vs_cocktail:


My head's where it should be. For a load calc, fine. You always follow manufacturer's instructions. I have run 60 amp to a range before. Some of those things are power pigs.

I'm with Lighterup on this one.

Running a fat piece of teck to an appliace isn't fun but sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

What brand was that? Like I said, when you think you've seen it all...


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> That is ridiculous. Almost all Range Receptacles are rated 40/50 amps
> 
> BTW, I would never direct wire a free standing range. *Not even sure if that is permitted*


Not in Canadian dwellings. CEC 26-744(7). 
I bet it is the same in the NEC


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## 3DDesign (Oct 25, 2014)

Dennis Alwon said:


> That is ridiculous. Almost all Range Receptacles are rated 40/50 amps
> 
> BTW, I would never direct wire a free standing range. Not even sure if that is permitted


I agree but I'm not sure the OP ever specified "free standing" vs slide in or drop in Range. Unless I'm wrong they just said range. Some slide in and drop in Ranges direct wire. They have a about 4ft of Greenfieid flex factory installed, similar to a slide-in oven.


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## 3DDesign (Oct 25, 2014)

Dennis Alwon said:


> There is absolutely no reason not to use a 50 amp cord and plug.


I posted a direct quote from the GE installation manual. You'd have to ask them.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

99cents said:


> My head's where it should be. For a load calc, fine. You always follow manufacturer's instructions. I have run 60 amp to a range before. Some of those things are power pigs.
> 
> I'm with Lighterup on this one.
> 
> Running a fat piece of teck to an appliace isn't fun but sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.


We have two different rules in the CEC for ranges in a dwelling. One for the service size load calc on a dwelling where we use 6Kw for a single range plus 40% of the amount if it exceeds 12KW [8-200(1)(a)(iv)], and another for just a range where we use 8KW plus 40% of the amount exceeding 12KW. [8-300(1)]

Unless the range actually says it needs more than 40 amps, which I agree some do, then we can use 8-300(1) for it’s demand. So a range rated at 16KW can still be on a 40 amp circuit.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

3DDesign said:


> I agree but I'm not sure the OP ever specified "free standing" vs slide in or drop in Range. Unless I'm wrong they just said range. Some slide in and drop in Ranges direct wire. They have a about 4ft of Greenfieid flex factory installed, similar to a slide-in oven.


Your talking about a cook top or a wall oven. A range has both a top cooking surface and an oven.

ETA. Oops, so yes there are slide in ranges, They are the ones where you have a small piece of the counter along the back.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

They make built in everything now. If you use the code book and don't ask for the installation manual, you will eventually end up having a bad day.


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## B-Nabs (Jun 4, 2014)

Not entirely on topic, but it seems to me that running more than 50A to a 14-50R would be non - compliant. 

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


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## 3DDesign (Oct 25, 2014)

99cents said:


> They make built in everything now. If you use the code book and don't ask for the installation manual, you will eventually end up having a bad day.


True, I think the worst are Drop-In Ranges like THIS that wire direct.
Maybe worse is when they try to fit a gas cooktop over a single electric oven. It's a nightmare for both the plumber and the electrician.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

B-Nabs said:


> Not entirely on topic, but it seems to me that running more than 50A to a 14-50R would be non - compliant.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


Yes it would end up being a hardwired unit


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

99cents said:


> My head's where it should be. For a load calc, fine. You always follow manufacturer's instructions. I have run 60 amp to a range before. Some of those things are power pigs.
> 
> I'm with Lighterup on this one.
> 
> Running a fat piece of teck to an appliace isn't fun but sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.


Agree with mfr instructions. But OP was talking about a 13Kw range. 

Some of those new induction stove tops are power pigs for sure !


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## mikewillnot (Apr 2, 2013)

Frigidaire FGEF3059TD


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## mikewillnot (Apr 2, 2013)

13kw was the only info I could find.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

But are such power pigs actually continuous loads -- in the NEC // CEC sense ?

A lot of their high power ratings are due to marketing departments -- rather like garage scale air compressors.

Unless it's pretty exotic ( ie commercial scale in production capacity ) raw economics causes every manufacturer to aim for 40A branch circuits.

The mass market drives the equation. Going over the line, just kills sales... brutally so.

And in Residential, stay away from aluminum in all branch circuits. That's not a rule, it's just good advice.

Aluminum is for feeders and Services.


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## mikewillnot (Apr 2, 2013)

Mfgr specs say 13kw. Installation manual says minimum 40 amp branch circuit.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

mikewillnot said:


> Mfgr specs say 13kw. Installation manual says minimum 40 amp branch circuit.


Sounds familiar. Someone here said that a while ago. :smile:


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

telsa said:


> But are such power pigs actually continuous loads -- in the NEC // CEC sense ?
> 
> A lot of their high power ratings are due to marketing departments -- rather like garage scale air compressors.
> 
> ...


I personally have never seen an appliance that doesn't say "Copper conductors only!" and some say "no Aluminum wiring"


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## ElectricMon (Jan 17, 2018)

how could manufactures instructions require a copper wire supply if they have a cord and if not wouldn't the only way to connect to aluminum require an approved aluminum to copper splice like a split bolt and then all should be good if you are a stickler for the instructions just run a short copper wire from the bolt to the connection to the appliance whip.


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## ElectricMon (Jan 17, 2018)

large wire can be up to 5 bucks a foot cheaper if aluminum can be used when you have 100 ft to the panel it would take a lot of labor to save 500 bucks


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

telsa said:


> But are such power pigs actually continuous loads -- in the NEC // CEC sense ?
> 
> A lot of their high power ratings are due to marketing departments -- rather like garage scale air compressors.
> 
> ...


Like 'nut says, as soon as you see the word "induction", start asking questions. You could be running fat cable.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Appliance specs are critical. I was told "gas range" once. I was given the model number but I ignored it. I ran 120V. When the appliances rolled in, the range was gas on top with an electric oven. That was on me. Fishing #8 cable through finished walls and ceiling was ugly. Now I run #8 to gas ranges.


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

NEC 2017 code handbook by nfpa blue text page 105

table 220.55

"the demand factors are based on the diversified use of household appliances, because it is unlikely that all appliances will be used simultaneously or that all cooking units and the oven of a range will be at maximum heat for any length of time."

thats good questioning and instinct to think the circuit must be rated for entire appliance use, but the worse that can happen as long as ocpd is sized correctly for the conductors is the breaker trips

if its expected the entire unit will be used then obviously the circuit needs to be good for 100% of appliance rating


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

99cents said:


> Appliance specs are critical. I was told "gas range" once. I was given the model number but I ignored it. I ran 120V. When the appliances rolled in, the range was gas on top with an electric oven. That was on me. Fishing #8 cable through finished walls and ceiling was ugly. Now I run #8 to gas ranges.


Similar situation. was told the same thing "gas range"
I ran 14 awg for the cooking hood and gas range.

Come time for finish...the "gas range" was still 120 volt , 
but specifically required a 20 amp circuit and had the 20
amp nomenclature on it's cord.


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## mitch65 (Mar 26, 2015)

mikewillnot said:


> My reading of the code says this needs #6 NM-B copper wire, a 4-wire 50-amp receptacle, and a 60-amp breaker (unless I can find a 55). Does that make sense?
> 
> 240v


Where in the code does it say you can put a 50A receptacle on a 60A breaker?


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

T. 210 21(B)(3) states 50 amp receptacle for a 50 amp ocpd


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Yes the chapter is call *Branch Circuit*, Feeder and Service Calculation
> 
> Look at Note 4.
> 
> ...


Bottom line is the spec sheet.
When I wire a new building (commercial or resi) I demand the
spec sheets for everything.

Often we will see a gas cooktop and a built in electric double 
oven. There is no way I'm running 8 awg CU to a double oven 
(even though it's the only electric cooking unit) UNLESS that double
oven is rated @ 40 amps....and depending on brand , sometimes 
they are 40 , but more often they are 50 and I've even recall in
the past seen 60 amp requirements.

Everything I do is so I can logically explain it in court (in case 
the Boogeyman tries to sue me...and the Boogeyman will bring 
the Spec sheets in to court).


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

lighterup said:


> Bottom line is the spec sheet.
> When I wire a new building (commercial or resi) I demand the
> spec sheets for everything.
> 
> ...



The bottom line is you argued with me about what I said to the op. My answer was per code and to the point. 

What you do with your installs is up to you but if the specs say 13.8 kw then a 40 amp circuit is all that is required. If you want to run #6 then go ahead.

I often oversize my conductors also but that is not a code thing..


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

Dennis Alwon said:


> The bottom line is you argued with me about what I said to the op. My answer was per code and to the point.
> 
> What you do with your installs is up to you but if the specs say 13.8 kw then a 40 amp circuit is all that is required. If you want to run #6 then go ahead.
> 
> I often oversize my conductors also but that is not a code thing..


see you got testy and still are.
I'm not arguing. I think you're wrong

Edit: It's for downsizing the size
of the main service so we don't have to put
monstrosities on the homes (400 and 600
amp services)

Plate ratings and spec sheets for products should
*always be followed*
This was my point from my first thread...you're
the one arguing. End of discussion.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Dennis Alwon said:


> The bottom line is you argued with me about what I said to the op. My answer was per code and to the point.
> 
> What you do with your installs is up to you but if the specs say 13.8 kw then a 40 amp circuit is all that is required. If you want to run #6 then go ahead.
> 
> I often oversize my conductors also but that is not a code thing..


I've had more inspectors ask for the manufacturer's specs than not on appliances and things like this!


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

MechanicalDVR said:


> I've had more inspectors ask for the manufacturer's specs than not on appliances and things like this!


We are required to tack up the specs on the job site
for rough-in inspections...

Ceiling fan rated boxes (UL listings)

Any & all Appliance specs including
* refer
* ovens
* cook tops
* dishwashers

All HVAC Equipment specs 
(particularly the AC unit & Heat pumps)

All of this along with the approved print need to 
be on the job or there will be no inspection


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

lighterup said:


> We are required to tack up the specs on the job site
> for rough-in inspections...
> 
> Ceiling fan rated boxes (UL listings)
> ...


While an employee I was not normally there for the actual rough but was the guy sent to meet the inspector for inspections.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

MechanicalDVR said:


> While an employee I was not normally there for the actual rough but was the guy sent to meet the inspector for inspections.


I even had some jurisdictions ask for my demand factor math
for residential!

Not even a huge house either.


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## pudge565 (Dec 8, 2007)

lighterup said:


> see you got testy and still are.
> I'm not arguing. I think you're wrong
> 
> Edit: It's for downsizing the size
> ...


The manufacturer stating the unit is rated 50A is a far cry from them stating it MUST be installed on a 50A branch circuit. Do not confuse the two.


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

lighterup said:


> see you got testy and still are.
> I'm not arguing. I think you're wrong


NEC 2017 code handbook(NOT CODE) by nfpa blue text page 105

table 220.55

"the demand factors are based on the diversified use of household appliances, because it is unlikely that all appliances will be used simultaneously or that all cooking units and the oven of a range will be at maximum heat for any length of time."

thats instinct to think the circuit must be rated for entire appliance use, but the worse that should happen as long as ocpd is sized correctly for the conductors is the breaker trips

if its expected the entire unit will be used at the same time then obviously the circuit needs to be good for the entire appliance use, always a good idea to size for entire appliance anyways though, we're just talking about code minimum here though


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## mikewillnot (Apr 2, 2013)

Thanks everyone for the overall extremely helpful and interesting discussion.
It's a short run to the stove (@15') and I plan on installing a 50-amp breaker, #6 copper NM because I have some laying around, and a 50-amp receptacle. Although I may substitute aluminum SER because I also have some of THAT laying around.
I will most likely be putting in this branch circuit in conjunction with a service upgrade, FWIW.


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

also 220.14 (B)(branch circuit calc for range) says load calc permitted to use 220.55(feeder and service calc), again i say that's good cautious instinct to question it though and i think it would be decent to run the larger cable and ocpd, but for code minimum i don't think its required


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

I think we all agree if the unit states minimum circuit or minimum overcurrent protective device then we must use those numbers.

Again, with the op stating 13.5kw or whatever it was then the code would allow a 40 amp circuit. Do you have to use 40 amps? No, of course not unless the unit says max overcurrent protective device 40 amps.

I don't know why this thread has turned the way it did. Everyone wants to run a larger wire then fine do it. Nothing wrong with it. I answered the op's question as stated I gave the correct answer based on the NEC.


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I don't know why this thread has turned the way it did.


i don't think anyone is getting mad, just having a decent discussion


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

deleted


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

I think the chapter is for the mathematics so we do not 
have to install large services on everything.

Wiring in the field should be per manufacturers specs.

I also think there are different code interpretations that
vary geographically and I can't speak for Carolinas , FLA 
etc...but I can absolutely say factually I would not pass
a rough-in inspection here wiring a 13kw double oven 
in 8 awg copper.would not pass.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

lighterup said:


> I also think there are different code interpretations that
> vary geographically and I can't speak for Carolinas , FLA
> etc...but I can absolutely say factually I would not pass
> a rough-in inspection here wiring a 13kw double oven
> in 8 awg copper.would not pass.


If the unit did not give an overcurrent protective device size and all that was given was 13.5kw then you would have to pass it according to the NEC. Note 4 is clear on this. I don't know why you think there is a code difference between states. The NEC clearly allows a #8... Mike holt books, JCR code class etc all teach this.

If you have a test and they ask what is the minimum size copper conductor required for a 13.5kw range then the answer is #8. This is not really debatable because the words can't be clearer than what it says below



> 4. *Branch-Circuit Load. It shall be permissible to calculate the branch-circuit load for one range in accordance with Table 220.55.*


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

Dennis Alwon said:


> If the unit did not give an overcurrent protective device size and all that was given was 13.5kw then you would have to pass it according to the NEC. Note 4 is clear on this. I don't know why you think there is a code difference between states. The NEC clearly allows a #8... Mike holt books, JCR code class etc all teach this.
> 
> If you have a test and they ask what is the minimum size copper conductor required for a 13.5kw range then the answer is #8. This is not really debatable because the words can't be clearer than what it says below


Okay Dennis thanx. have great evening


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