# Is this protoytpe installation legal



## JohnR (Apr 12, 2010)

why don't you just use a KO mounted transformer? mount directly on the j-box?

Also, looks to me that the grounding of the j-box might need correcting.(don't know your codes)


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## oliquir (Jan 13, 2011)

bi dont use a standard transformer because this one output is very specific for a special application. the j-box is grounded normally (not very clear on picture)


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Well first i would throw away the round box and never buy one again unless it is for a light fixture.
buy a normal 4" squire box and transformer and some normal romex cable.
And make it look professional. instead of that mess.:whistling2:


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## oliquir (Jan 13, 2011)

it is only a prototype the client will decide what type of junction box they want, but i cant replace transformer it is made for a specific application and has a lot of electronics on secondary side. The only thing i need to confirm is it code complaint to connect the transformer with the sjtw cable.i dont care if it looks ugly if code compliant.


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## farlsincharge (Dec 31, 2010)

You are going to need armoured cable instead of NMD.
What are you building exactly?


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## oliquir (Jan 13, 2011)

I need to add the small transformer to existing water heater wiring (most of them are residential using nmd cable) 
I will sell the transformer to my client (about 20000 units) but i must show them the less expensive way to connect it and be CSA code compliant. This must be a very inexpensive installation.
i know this wont be the best looking installation.


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## wwilson174 (Apr 25, 2008)

What is the transformer for?, BillW


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

I've never seen a water heater with a KO down there by the element


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## farlsincharge (Dec 31, 2010)

oliquir said:


> I need to add the small transformer to existing water heater wiring (most of them are residential using nmd cable)
> I will sell the transformer to my client (about 20000 units) but i must show them the less expensive way to connect it and be CSA code compliant. This must be a very inexpensive installation.
> i know this wont be the best looking installation.


Are you selling pressure relief valve alarms to the koreans? 

Really, it doesn't matter if it is legal in regards to the CEC. CSA can do whatever the hell they like.


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## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> Well first i would throw away the round box and never buy one again unless it is for a light fixture.
> buy a normal 4" squire box and transformer and some normal romex cable.
> And make it look professional. instead of that mess.:whistling2:


Romex is color coded up here. Red is 30a/240v.


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## crazymurph (Aug 19, 2009)

I do not know why that type of romex is not common in the US. 10/2 is mostly used for 240V. loads. As far as your post, I am not sure of what you are doing.


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## oliquir (Jan 13, 2011)

crazymurph said:


> I do not know why that type of romex is not common in the US. 10/2 is mostly used for 240V. loads. As far as your post, I am not sure of what you are doing.


it is a 240V load. that's why i cant use plug-in transformer


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## wcord (Jan 23, 2011)

oliquir said:


> it is only a prototype the client will decide what type of junction box they want, but i cant replace transformer it is made for a specific application and has a lot of electronics on secondary side. The only thing i need to confirm is it code complaint to connect the transformer with the sjtw cable.i dont care if it looks ugly if code compliant.



Well. 14-100-f-i seems to indicate that you are within the CEC rules. And as previously stated CSA will be the ruling authority in manufacturing. 
However if this installation is for only 1 jurisdiction, then the local authority can give you approval (of course for a fee per unit)

Prototypes are usually crude but necessary to see what works.

Personally, I would use a larger JB, and install the transformer inside, bringing the LV wires to a terminal strip on the outside. 

Good luck with your endeavor


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## oliquir (Jan 13, 2011)

thanx for reply i have contacted local authority (RBQ in quebec) to see what they think of it


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## Missouri Bound (Aug 30, 2009)

Anyone figure out wht this is for.....or did I overlook that little tidbit. It's obviosly a control circuit....but why the secrecy? I think we could offer better advice if we knew WTF it was.


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## oliquir (Jan 13, 2011)

it is a simple transformer with dc output 24v 15ma


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## Missouri Bound (Aug 30, 2009)

Yeah, I got that....but what's it for?


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## oliquir (Jan 13, 2011)

rust protection of water tank via impressed current commonly called cathodic protection.


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## Missouri Bound (Aug 30, 2009)

As long as that "protoype" is an integral part of the WH installation, I don't think you will have a problem with the legality of the installation. If it was a stand alone transformer for an accessory device it would be questionable. Now does your installation affect the UL listing?


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## oliquir (Jan 13, 2011)

we already have about 5000 approved installation but with 120v transformer instead now we must do it with 240v installation since a lot of home doenst have 120v near tank
and since it is only installed in canada we must follow rule of CSA and not UL


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## safira218 (Feb 22, 2011)

oliquir said:


> it is a 240V load. that's why i cant use plug-in transformer


Personally, I would use a larger JB, and install the transformer inside, bringing the LV wires to a terminal strip on the outside. 

Good luck with your endeavor


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

Is that small transformer listed to be connected to a 30 amp supply circuit?


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

oliquir said:


> we already have about 5000 approved installation but with 120v transformer instead now we must do it with 240v installation since a lot of home doenst have 120v near tank
> and since it is only installed in canada we must follow rule of CSA and not UL


 




Try ; ALPS CONTROLS INC.


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

oldtimer said:


> Try ; ALPS CONTROLS INC.


 Also :try.... ... White/Rogers. S84Z-90


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## oliquir (Jan 13, 2011)

arghh i missed one article 25-750-4 that says that water heater must be the only load on its breaker


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## Missouri Bound (Aug 30, 2009)

I hear ya oliquir.....but since the device is an intricate part of the water heater....as if a control...shouldn't it be allowed?


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## oliquir (Jan 13, 2011)

Missouri Bound said:


> I hear ya oliquir.....but since the device is an intricate part of the water heater....as if a control...shouldn't it be allowed?


i ask RBQ about that, still waiting for answer (they may answer in 2-3 weeks


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

IDK, if you want to do something like that, It would be best if your xfmr had a 1/2" threaded hub to fit in a jbox.

Then you could screw a 4S extension ring over the water heater's jbox to intercept power.

That octopus you got there is quite the abomination. Here the 10/2 must be sleeved in 1/2 flex.


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## 76nemo (Aug 13, 2008)

..................


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## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> Is that small transformer listed to be connected to a 30 amp supply circuit?


I'm with Don on this issue, that's the first thing that jumped out at me. It cannot be ignored. If the breaker feeding the water heater is 30A, the wires to the transformer must be 30A rated and that transformer must be listed to be protected by a 30A OCPD, which is highly doubtful. In my opinion there must at the very least be a fuse in the circuit to protect it at a lower level.

J-box with a splitter block, through wires to the heater, tap off with 240V for the transformer to a fuse (or smaller CB). It would entail a much bigger box.


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

*Wow*

Well iam just a old electrician but what rust i know a water heater in my house has a glass tank .

My copper pipe is now pcvc so it doesnt rust but heres some advice make sure you hook up the anode the correct way or you will have a bubble bath with Hydrogen .

By the time my water heater rust out i can buy 200 of your transformers and maybe a water heater in a life time .

What a waste of watts .


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## oliquir (Jan 13, 2011)

in my city average life of water heater is about 7 years before they perforate , in other city it is over 30 years


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

oliquir said:


> in my city average life of water heater is about 7 years before they perforate , in other city it is over 30 years


Wonder why that is must be high minerals in the water if thats the case maybe a soft water filter thats what folks use in florida we have a high sulfur issue here. 
Maybe a ground issue 

Guess theres different problems in other parts of this world .


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

oliquir said:


> Hi i have a particular projects that will be installed as the picture below. Supply is 240V 30A breaker for a water tank heater (no neutral avalable), nmd cable is 10/2 and the small 240V transformer at top (it is cULus and has internal fuses) has a sjtw 18/2 input wire rated at 10 amps.
> 
> I know the sjtw cable is not rated at 30 amp, but as i look in CEC it enters into exception list and it is just about 1m long and is able to withsand 1/3 of breaker capacity.
> 
> ...


I would say that if you did your homework as far as the installation exception is concerned and it is code compliant, why would you need to have an ITL approval for the installation?


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

The manufacturer should produce them mounted on a plate so they can be mounted directly to a box with no SJ cord, kind of like a honeywell 24v 40 va transformer.


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## oliquir (Jan 13, 2011)

finally since it would not pass CEC for rule 25-750-4, we will modify some water heater inside them and will apply for special csa inspection.


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