# 0-10v led dimming



## te12co2w

We roughed in a dwelling basement. Low ceilings. They will be installing a t-grid dropped ceiling. I thought I would be able to use troffers for lights but there might be less than 4" clearance for the fixtures. I found some flat panel led drop in fixtures and decided to buy a Hubbell CFP24-4140. I bought just one to find out if it would work. I think it will. Owners now want dimming. These are dimmable but use 0-10v technology. That requires an extra 2 conductors from the switch to the fixtures. The dimming happens at the driver. Purple and gray wire. I don't need special class 2 shielded wire or something do I? I plan on pulling an extra 14/2 from the switch to the driver. I will be using a P&S RH4BL3PTC dimmer. It has the 2 extra wires on it for the dimming. They are even purple and gray.


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## MDShunk

No, nothing exotic required. NEC wants at least CL2 insulation type. Most people use Belden cable unless they're using 4-wire MC on a commercial job. Your plan to run an extra 14-2 will work out dandy. They just won't have as many "pretty" dimmer options, so you might want to gauge that before you go for broke.


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## macmikeman

te12co2w said:


> We roughed in a dwelling basement. Low ceilings. They will be installing a t-grid dropped ceiling. I thought I would be able to use troffers for lights but there might be less than 4" clearance for the fixtures. I found some flat panel led drop in fixtures and decided to buy a Hubbell CFP24-4140. I bought just one to find out if it would work. I think it will. Owners now want dimming. These are dimmable but use 0-10v technology. That requires an extra 2 conductors from the switch to the fixtures. The dimming happens at the driver. Purple and gray wire. I don't need special class 2 shielded wire or something do I? I plan on pulling an extra 14/2 from the switch to the driver. I will be using a P&S RH4BL3PTC dimmer. It has the 2 extra wires on it for the dimming. They are even purple and gray.


If this makes you feel any safer, I do some work in a building that the hack who came before me used to just run purple and gray thhn wires with no conduit or other chapter three method thru the air handling plenum above the ceiling tiles all over the place to achieve 0-10 volt dimming for lay in troffer lights. Actually , at that voltage it is in my book fairly safe, but it does violate about a hundred building codes , including the ones about plenums. I suspect the building maintenance crews doing side work...............


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## MadSparky

One caveat. If you use Class 2 wiring be sure not to run them in the same Raceway has the power conductors.

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## cad99

18-2 beldin plenum rayed is all I have ever used on such a beast both res and commercial. In commercial we zip tie the cable to only the lighting pipe inspector is ok with that. 


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## MadSparky

cad99 said:


> 18-2 beldin plenum rayed is all I have ever used on such a beast both res and commercial. In commercial we zip tie the cable to only the lighting pipe inspector is ok with that.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Actually the code allows control wiring to be zip tied to the power Raceway if it is control wiring for the same equipment

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## Smid

electrokinetix said:


> Actually the code allows control wiring to be zip tied to the power Raceway if it is control wiring for the same equipment
> 
> Sent from my A574BL using Tapatalk


Do you have a code section for this? I was on a job recently where the inspector said this was a no go.


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## MadSparky

Smid said:


> Do you have a code section for this? I was on a job recently where the inspector said this was a no go.


Certainty. 300.11(b)(2)

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## MDShunk

Sometimes you bump into other codes (mechanical and building) that prohibit supporting raceways and cable from other raceways. The NEC isn't the be all and end all of electrical work.


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## MadSparky

MDShunk said:


> Sometimes you bump into other codes (mechanical and building) that prohibit supporting raceways and cable from other raceways. The NEC isn't the be all and end all of electrical work.


Which building code prohibits zip tying cl2 control wiring to the outside of conduit?

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## MDShunk

electrokinetix said:


> Which building code prohibits zip tying cl2 control wiring to the outside of conduit?
> 
> Sent from my A574BL using Tapatalk


I sorta thought that was common knowledge by now? That is, a prohibition against using conduit as a means of support for other wiring.


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## MadSparky

MDShunk said:


> I sorta thought that was common knowledge by now? That is, a prohibition against using conduit as a means of support for other wiring.


It's been my experience in my field that common knowledge is often incorrect.

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## Dennis Alwon

electrokinetix said:


> It's been my experience in my field that common knowledge is often incorrect.
> 
> Sent from my A574BL using Tapatalk


300.11 as you stated allows supporting the cable from a raceway in some instances




> 300.11(C) Raceways Used as Means of Support. Raceways shall be
> used only as a means of support for other raceways, cables, or
> nonelectrical equipment under any of the following conditions:
> (1) Where the raceway or means of support is identified as a
> means of support
> (2) Where the raceway contains power supply conductors for
> electrically controlled equipment and is used to support
> Class 2 circuit conductors or cables that are solely for the
> purpose of connection to the equipment control circuits
> (3) Where the raceway is used to support boxes or conduit
> bodies in accordance with 314.23 or to support luminaires
> in accordance with 410.36(E)


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## Kevin

macmikeman said:


> If this makes you feel any safer, I do some work in a building that the hack who came before me used to just run purple and gray thhn wires with no conduit or other chapter three method thru the air handling plenum above the ceiling tiles all over the place to achieve 0-10 volt dimming for lay in troffer lights. Actually , at that voltage it is in my book fairly safe, but it does violate about a hundred building codes , including the ones about plenums. I suspect the building maintenance crews doing side work...............


I just rewired some lights in a plenum space at a wholesaler/supply house... 0-10volt is cool. I didn't touch it only the power. But they had run lvt 2 wire all over the place. Pulled the wires out of the fixture to do joints... I kept on my way running my 120 volt lines and didn't say a thing. (Oh and they stock the special 12/ bx with the 16/2 lvt in it)

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## NDC

Can 100% dimming actually be achieved with 0-10V dimming? Any time I have installed it, including residential, the lowest dimming setting on the dimmer is still quite bright. Dim but still enough light to wonder why it's called 0-10V.

I always use Lutron DVSTV dimmers though, haven't tried the pass and seymour RH4BL3PTC listed in the OP.


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## Kevin

I was reading a package for a 0-10v dimmer the other day made by lutron. It was only listed 10-100%. I haven't seen them dim to anything below 10 percent (but the whole building is lutron products.)



NDC said:


> Can 100% dimming actually be achieved with 0-10V dimming? Any time I have installed it, including residential, the lowest dimming setting on the dimmer is still quite bright. Dim but still enough light to wonder why it's called 0-10V.
> 
> I always use Lutron DVSTV dimmers though, haven't tried the pass and seymour RH4BL3PTC listed in the OP.




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## Southeast Power

Is it just impossible to dim fixtures with 0-10v option with just a line voltage dimmer?
I have a whole bunch of owner supplied fixtures shot to a ceiling with my beloved Hilti BX and they now need to dim them.
I did find a wireless Lutron module that I can put into the end of each fixture and control them with a PICO remote. 
It believe the PICOs can control up to nine of those at a time.

If someone has had a similar problem and found a solution, I could seriously us some help.


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## NDC

Southeast Power said:


> Is it just impossible to dim fixtures with 0-10v option with just a line voltage dimmer?
> I have a whole bunch of owner supplied fixtures shot to a ceiling with my beloved Hilti BX and they now need to dim them.
> I did find a wireless Lutron module that I can put into the end of each fixture and control them with a PICO remote.
> It believe the PICOs can control up to nine of those at a time.
> 
> If someone has had a similar problem and found a solution, I could seriously us some help.


No it's not possible. I had a similar problem but on a much smaller scale. owner decided they wanted their newly installed troffers dimmed. I looked into the Lutron powpak but really expensive here and took a few weeks to get. 
I ended up using a Lutron DVSTV 0-10V dimmer switch. I had to fish LV cable to the switch though.
The DVSTV can control up to 25 2x4 fixtures and they do not need to be on the same circuit.

If I remember correctly the higher end Powpak can control 60mA of LV dimming drivers. Again, if I remember correctly, standard for a 2x4 led fixture driver is 2mA each so one can essentially control 30 fixture via one PowPak. 

Your best bet is to ask on the Lutron forums https://forums.lutron.com/forum.php


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## Southeast Power

NDC said:


> No it's not possible. I had a similar problem but on a much smaller scale. owner decided they wanted their newly installed troffers dimmed. I looked into the Lutron powpak but really expensive here and took a few weeks to get.
> I ended up using a Lutron DVSTV 0-10V dimmer switch. I had to fish LV cable to the switch though.
> The DVSTV can control up to 25 2x4 fixtures and they do not need to be on the same circuit.
> 
> If I remember correctly the higher end Powpak can control 60mA of LV dimming drivers. Again, if I remember correctly, standard for a 2x4 led fixture driver is 2mA each so one can essentially control 30 fixture via one PowPak.
> 
> Your best bet is to ask on the Lutron forums https://forums.lutron.com/forum.php


These fixtures are shot to the ceiling and Im not convinced pulling wire through 18 junction boxes is going to be a good idea.
Right now, I really need a wireless system.
Ill check out that Lutron Forum.
Thanks


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## NDC

Southeast Power said:


> These fixtures are shot to the ceiling and Im not convinced pulling wire through 18 junction boxes is going to be a good idea.
> Right now, I really need a wireless system.
> Ill check out that Lutron Forum.
> Thanks


Then I think your best bet is what you mentioned earlier. A Lutron FCJS-010 at each fixture and control them with Picos.


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## LeboElectric

I use ELV dimmers all the time.


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## Kevin

LeboElectric said:


> I use ELV dimmers all the time.


ELV is different from 0-10 volt

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## Southeast Power

We had a development.
The old fixtures were on two separate fluorescent dimmers.
I remember those needing a "trigger" wire to each ballast.
Lo and behold if there wasn't two nice wires running half way and one wire the rest of the way.
The guys pulled in what they needed and *now my only concern is running that 0-10v control wires in the same conduit ans the 120volt. *

We have about 550 watts on the whole circuit, 16 fixtures planned on one dimmer.

The GC is going to pay us for the remediation on the 36 fixtures we installed without the 0-10v circuit


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## Kevin

Southeast Power I'm confused by what you said. 

As for the 0-10volt lines in the 120 volt pipe as long as the insulation is rated for the highest voltage I don't see a problem (e.g.. you're using THHN for the 120 lines, use THHN for the 0-10 volt lines.


Southeast Power said:


> We had a development.
> The old fixtures were on two separate fluorescent dimmers.
> I remember those needing a "trigger" wire to each ballast.
> Lo and behold if there wasn't two nice wires running half way and one wire the rest of the way.
> The guys pulled in what they needed and *now my only concern is running that 0-10v control wires in the same conduit ans the 120volt. *
> 
> We have about 550 watts on the whole circuit, 16 fixtures planned on one dimmer.
> 
> The GC is going to pay us for the remediation on the 36 fixtures we installed without the 0-10v circuit


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## Southeast Power

Kevin_Essiambre said:


> Southeast Power I'm confused by what you said.
> 
> As for the 0-10volt lines in the 120 volt pipe as long as the insulation is rated for the highest voltage I don't see a problem (e.g.. you're using THHN for the 120 lines, use THHN for the 0-10 volt lines.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


Much thanks.
I wasnt sure if there could be an induced voltage or noise issue


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## KnightPower

MC LED is the trick.. but a bear to fit in double barrels. Sometimes any of the Arlington MC connectors. 

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## Kevin

Southeast Power said:


> Much thanks.
> I wasnt sure if there could be an induced voltage or noise issue


I'm not sure about the induced voltage (I mean the wires are in the same enclosure as the line voltage in the wiring housing on the fixture.)

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## Southeast Power

KnightPower said:


> MC LED is the trick.. but a bear to fit in double barrels. Sometimes any of the Arlington MC connectors.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


Distributor was pushing it hard. 
It just wasnt for our project.


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## splatz

The induced voltage could be a problem, that's why the MC with the 0-10V has the low voltage pair twisted. 

I realize that there's no problem with the lower voltage in the conduit as long as all the insulation is higher than the highest voltage in there. However I thought the problem was the class 2 circuit has to be separated by either a barrier built in the box, or a nonconductive jacket, and they have to be secured in the box so they are separated. Evidently the jacket on the 0-10V pair satisfies the requirement with the MC with the dimming pair. Without that jacket, I have used a piece of carflex in the box to satisfy the requirement.


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## paulengr

UL specifies a minimum 18 gauge so in a fault the wire lasts long enough to trigger a breaker. That’s why a lot of instrument cables and CAT 5 must be isolated. I can get 600 V CAT 5 AWM which is used in networked MCCs and I can strap it to 500 MCM but it’s not legal because of the #24 wire outside the MCC. It’s also Listed as PLTC. So you could run this stuff or ITC which is outright shielded. So you can follow the NEC low voltage rules too where you ignore chapters 1-3 except where it specifically calls for it.




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## Wcbrackets

some fixtures are capable of both line dimming and 0-10v dimming, but check the specs first. also ive seen some led pot lights that the instructions said 0-10v dimming but the sales rep and manufacture swore they could do either.


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## Southeast Power

Kevin_Essiambre said:


> I'm not sure about the induced voltage (I mean the wires are in the same enclosure as the line voltage in the wiring housing on the fixture.)
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


The setup we used, taking over the old fluorescent trigger dimming wire worked out flawlessly. The customer was very happy and the dimming was very smooth and dimmed down very low.
Very happy with it.


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## lilsilva99

I used the MC luminary cable from AFC cable systems on a job in the city last year. Cant beat it. Just know to get your connectors for jbox termination when you get your wire...i ran into the supply house stocking the wire but needing to order the approved connectors setting me back a day or two.
They also have a multizone luminary cable in many different combinations aloowing you to run up to 3 switch legs and 3 control in one cable,
277, 208, 12-2-2,12-3 etc


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## Jarp Habib

NDC said:


> Southeast Power said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is it just impossible to dim fixtures with 0-10v option with just a line voltage dimmer?
> I have a whole bunch of owner supplied fixtures shot to a ceiling with my beloved Hilti BX and they now need to dim them.
> I did find a wireless Lutron module that I can put into the end of each fixture and control them with a PICO remote.
> It believe the PICOs can control up to nine of those at a time.
> 
> If someone has had a similar problem and found a solution, I could seriously us some help.
> 
> 
> 
> No it's not possible. I had a similar problem but on a much smaller scale. owner decided they wanted their newly installed troffers dimmed. I looked into the Lutron powpak but really expensive here and took a few weeks to get.
> I ended up using a Lutron DVSTV 0-10V dimmer switch. I had to fish LV cable to the switch though.
> The DVSTV can control up to 25 2x4 fixtures and they do not need to be on the same circuit.
> 
> If I remember correctly the higher end Powpak can control 60mA of LV dimming drivers. Again, if I remember correctly, standard for a 2x4 led fixture driver is 2mA each so one can essentially control 30 fixture via one PowPak.
> 
> Your best bet is to ask on the Lutron forums https://forums.lutron.com/forum.php
Click to expand...

There is in fact a Lutron device which receives line voltage dimming and outputs 0-10v. Architects wanted a 3 way dimming setup with Diva slide switches and the same 0-10v lights as the rest of the floor, it took me almost 2 months and a lot of time with Lutron support to convince them that what they wanted was flat impossible but I could get them 95% of what they wanted for a ridiculous amount of extra money.


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## Mulder

Kevin_Essiambre said:


> Southeast Power I'm confused by what you said.
> 
> As for the 0-10volt lines in the 120 volt pipe as long as the insulation is rated for the highest voltage I don't see a problem (e.g.. you're using THHN for the 120 lines, use THHN for the 0-10 volt lines.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


The power supply would have to be relabeled as a Class 1 power supply also per 725.130 Ex. No. 2 and 725.124.

(A) Class 1 Wiring Methods and Materials. Installation shall
be in accordance with 725.46.

Exception No. 2: Class 2 and Class 3 circuits shall be permitted to be
reclassified and installed as Class 1 circuits if the Class 2 and
Class 3 markings required in 725.124 are eliminated and the entire
circuit is installed using the wiring methods and materials in accordance
with Part II, Class 1 circuits.
Informational Note: Class 2 and Class 3 circuits reclassified and
installed as Class 1 circuits are no longer Class 2 or Class 3
circuits, regardless of the continued connection to a Class 2 or
Class 3 power source.

725.124 Circuit Marking. The equipment supplying the
circuits shall be durably marked where plainly visible to indicate
each circuit that is a Class 2 or Class 3 circuit.


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