# Pros and cons of union membership?



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

The difference varies a little by trade. In electrical the main difference is pay and benefits. Pay can be equal if a guy finds a good non union shop. Of all the information I have ever come across Union benefits (healthcare, life insurance, retirement) always come out on top. Do your research and I would bet that is going to be what you find yourself.


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## metsen duts (Jan 14, 2015)

Pro: having multiple Retirement's, being able to travel where ever you like and going to work( pending that local is busy), having the best training available to you( some take advantage of this others not so much), brotherhood ( I personally have gotten employee discount at home depot from a retired brother cause I was wearing a local shirt)
And let's not forget about check pool on payday non union contractors can fire you for asking or sharing what you get paid , in the union everyone knows

Cons: work can be some what feast or famine but there is always work going on somewhere don't be scared to hit the road for fame and fortune


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Con:

I know , I know...I was desperate , but I responded to an ad
looking for a commercial electrician ...
After I agreed to meet this person in Aurora , Ohio @ a Marshalls 
store , I notice he had Minnesota plates on his truck , so I asked
him if he was from there .
He tells me he contracts these out of state remodels for Marshall
sores etc etc...
Okay , I thought...then I ask him how he is doing commercial work
in Ohio .."is he licensed in Ohio?"..he tells me no , some other guy 
from southern Ohio is pulling the permits and that it's all good.
He does not realize that I'm an electrical contractor , not just an
experienced electrician looking for work...so I know that is not
completely accurate and is a state violation of the license holders
info...
We negotiate an hourly rate on his payroll and I begin to go to work
the first day..
At the end of the first day he drops the bomb shell on me that him 
and the guy he brought with him are headed back to Minnesota and 
to give him a call when the project is done...WTF!?

I said.."what the (you know what) ?! Your dropping this job in my
lap to do on my own? Are you joking? 
He gave me a blank stare like I was the one from Mars...he appeared 
to really think there was nothing wrong with this...


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## Jhellwig (Jun 18, 2014)

If you find a good company that treats people fairly there is no need for a union. If a union is run properly they can be a great asset.


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## gnuuser (Jan 13, 2013)

Jhellwig said:


> If you find a good company that treats people fairly there is no need for a union. If a union is run properly they can be a great asset.


exactly the point 
but usually in industry you will rarely find a fair work place if ever!
when they try to weasel out of required provisions(tools and training) or attempting to screw you for hours and pay(this is more common than people think)

a union and management that work together tend to try to optimize each other and openly compliment each other 
this kind of situation makes for a great workplace and successful company
but all too often you have managers who view a union as a thorn on their side and will breed contention by instigating problems.


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

Pro: I just quit a decent (not great) company I had been with for a few years because another contractor put a few calls in for a job less than 10 minutes from my house.

Old company had me driving over an hour one way.

Didn't have to renegotiate pay and benefits and now it feels like I got a raise since I'm not wasting so much on driving and maintenance.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Con:
A local is a small community of people. If you are pulling wire and have to pull quite a bit of slack and then re-feed it into another conduit make sure not to get it wrapped around a stationary object or you will become the "looping Louie" of your generation and into the next.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

jrannis said:


> Con:
> 
> I know , I know...I was desperate , but I responded to an ad
> looking for a commercial electrician ...
> ...


To act as if **** does not roll down hill in a union environment is
disingenuous ..the laws of physics in life are inescapable...I think if
you address the real question of "why are unions steadily declining
in the U.S. over the last several decades" , this OP's questions can
be more accurately answered.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

lighterup said:


> To act as if **** does not roll down hill in a union environment is
> disingenuous ..the laws of physics in life are inescapable...I think if
> you address the real question of "why are unions steadily declining
> in the U.S. over the last several decades" , this OP's questions can
> be more accurately answered.


Again, it's a small community and quite a bit of peer accountability. Lots of checks and balances in place. 
It's not unusual to take a call, get handed a set of plans and be expected to run a job.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

jrannis said:


> Again, it's a small community and quite a bit of peer accountability. Lots of checks and balances in place.
> It's not unusual to take a call, get handed a set of plans and be expected to run a job.


I'm not sure I understand you . What does your original post (which was
pulled from my past post) have to do with pro's and con's of labor unions?
Are you saying people don't get screwed if they are in a union and do get screwed if they are not union?


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## Milwookie (May 24, 2016)

So far, all of these things make sense. So can someone help me understand why some people are very (almost viscerally) anti-Union? I can understand why businesses would be against it, because it costs more money to treat employees well, but why would the employees themselves be so opposed to a group that strives to improve their working conditions?

One article I found online claimed that it was because unions are literally trying to undermine the government and create a communist state, and although the current pope is pro-Union, apparently the Catholic Church has a long history of anti-unionism. I find it very confusing.

Edit: I found a thread on Reddit that gives a good breakdown. Sounds like the non-Union argument is largely based around how it strives to maintain positions that are no longer needed, and can be very inefficient. https://m.reddit.com/r/NeutralPolitics/comments/17wnp5/what_are_the_proscons_of_unions/


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

lighterup said:


> I'm not sure I understand you . What does your original post (which was
> pulled from my past post) have to do with pro's and con's of labor unions?
> Are you saying people don't get screwed if they are in a union and do get screwed if they are not union?


What he is saying is that what happened to you, the way you were completely abused and then thrown in the trash like a dirty rag, would never be allowed to happen if you were in the union. It was just one of many examples.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Milwookie said:


> So far, all of these things make sense. So can someone help me understand why some people are very (almost viscerally) anti-Union? I can understand why businesses would be against it, because it costs more money to treat employees well, but why would the employees themselves be so opposed to a group that strives to improve their working conditions?
> 
> One article I found online claimed that it was because unions are literally trying to undermine the government and create a communist state, and although the current pope is pro-Union, apparently the Catholic Church has a long history of anti-unionism. I find it very confusing.


The main reason why you will see workers who have absolutely no affiliation with the union be so anti-union is simply jealousy. They are jealous that they didn't get the excellent training, the high wages, the huge compensation packages, the better conditions, etc.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Jrzy said:


> The main reason why you will see workers who have absolutely no affiliation with the union be so anti-union is simply jealousy. They are jealous that they didn't get the excellent training, the high wages, the huge compensation packages, the better conditions, etc.


In reality, most places just don't have enough guys to even start a local, big city's that do have mostly non-Union, especially in the south, union jobs pay 30 to 100% more than the non-Union shops.
Our wage here is just under $30 per hour and another $11-12 in benefits.
Non-Union shops here pay $15 to $20, $25 for a top dog, very little to no benefits.
Interestingly, the bid openings are very close.

The simple math is, at the end of a 40 year career, with a nice pension ready for you, life will be good.
I found that when work is slow, everybody suffers the same. It's best to work for more money and save some rather than working hand to mouth.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Milwookie said:


> So far, all of these things make sense. So can someone help me understand why some people are very (almost viscerally) anti-Union? I can understand why businesses would be against it, because it costs more money to treat employees well, but why would the employees themselves be so opposed to a group that strives to improve their working conditions?
> 
> One article I found online claimed that it was because unions are literally trying to undermine the government and create a communist state, and although the current pope is pro-Union, apparently the Catholic Church has a long history of anti-unionism. I find it very confusing.
> 
> Edit: I found a thread on Reddit that gives a good breakdown. Sounds like the non-Union argument is largely based around how it strives to maintain positions that are no longer needed, and can be very inefficient. https://m.reddit.com/r/NeutralPolitics/comments/17wnp5/what_are_the_proscons_of_unions/


I think you have it bass ackwards, the Protestant leadership in the south was paid by the big oil, railroads and industry at the time to vilify unions. The Catholic priests were pretty much immune that as they didn't preach but had a liturgy and followed Church doctrine.


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## bobbarker (Aug 6, 2015)

Catholic Church is far from anti-union, I think maybe you are confusing it with churches in the south and Mormons. 

Lots of people do not like unions because more than likely they were turned down for membership although older people may have a beef as unions really acted like asses in the 1970's and 1980's by basically being exclusionary unless you happened to be related to a member and that made them arrogant and no one likes arrogance 

Membership has fallen in unions due to a changing economy as the USA manufacturing base is now a complete joke. The jobs of "today" are more office and info related which is not a strong area for unions. Ignorance by people who know nothing about unions has also hurt unionism as some will say union members are thugs. People being fed news from right wing people have also hurt as they hate unions and feed the sheep false info to hide the fact that they really only care about business and not regular people by pitting people "us" against each other even though we have more in common than we do with business. Past arrogance of unions hurt membership. Southerners who for reasons I will never get hate unions although that is changing more and more as they see first hand how businesses mistreat workers particularly immigrant workers. The south is for the first time dealing with huge waves of immigrants while the north had the Irish, Italian etc etc wave of immigrants almost a century ago and those immigrants tended to unionize as time went on because they were treated like **** and had enough of it. Business groups and associations have hurt unions as they lobby politicians for exemptions to laws or laws favorable to them and not workers because its all about the money for both business and politicians. Failure of people to realize that business team up together to form groups or associations to lobby for their interests but when workers do the same under a union banner it is slanted as workers being greedy or wanting to hurt business while business interests are not slanted as ways to screw workers over.......


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

Unions have been very good to me. I started out in 1969 in the Teamsters (Local 445), left and joined the IBEW (Local 363) in 1979. I started my own Union electrical contracting company in 1985 and went open shop in 1990.

Those Union affiliations afforded me not only a great apprentiship, as was the case with the IBEW, but enough money, thanks to the Teamsters, but also a clear understanding and appreciation on the importance of providing employees top wages, benefits and working conditions. 

Those values also forced me to understand the importance of running a profitable businessin order to do that. And profitable it is.

I'm writing this at 0900 local time as I pass Hyde Park in London on a day tour to Oxford, Stratford, Cotswolds and Warwick Castle. It even comes with a free lunch! Life is great.

Thank you organized labor for helping me reach my dreams.

It's all what you make it folks. 

Cheers!


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

flyboy said:


> I started my own Union electrical contracting company in 1985 and went open shop in 1990.


I'm curious as to why you went to open shop from union shop. If you can find the time, could you share the reasoning?

Thanks.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

Jrzy said:


> The main reason why you will see workers who have absolutely no affiliation with the union be so anti-union is simply jealousy. They are jealous that they didn't get the excellent training, the high wages, the huge compensation packages, the better conditions, etc.


I can see some people being that way. I can also see someone who is a capitalist at heart thinking that a union is a socialist entity, and I can see those people having issues with a union. 

Think about it, a union pushes to set a price for the workers. If contractors got together to try to set a price for their services (working together) it's called bid rigging and they face jail time.

Then there are also people that tried to get into the union and find that they don't know the right people so the door stays shut. I bet they have some bitterness. 

The union cannot employ all the people that want to be electricians, so there is not room for everyone.

Then there is (or at least used to be) the union member arrogance (maybe some of it is from living in the NE part of the country, IDK).

All in all though, a union gig sure seems to be better than non union. Am I jealous I did not pursue that, yea, I am. Am I hateful to the people that did? No, well maybe just the arrogant ones, but that's not because they joined the union.

I do find Hax's comments rather amusing though. On other subjects he has posted the every man for himself mentality and if you can't make it, tough. Yet, he is a firm believer is a socialist organization. :laughing:


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

Jrzy said:


> The main reason why you will see workers who have absolutely no affiliation with the union be so anti-union is simply jealousy. They are jealous that they didn't get the excellent training, the high wages, the huge compensation packages, the better conditions, etc.


I don't buy that, what I have seen is (at least in my age group 63 and my local) is men that could not get in due to poor union policies. Back in the day when you needed an your father, uncle or neighbor to get you in.

Advantages

GENERALLY

Better par, bennies and excellent retirement.

And all this goes with you contractor to contractor.


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## AK_sparky (Aug 13, 2013)

I'll share my experience, which put a bad taste in my mouth for unions:

I was working at an open shop during my apprenticeship. I was generally happy there: reasonable pay, some benefits, good experience and exposure to variety. Pay and benefits weren't as good as union, but acceptable.

I was approached to join the union outside of one of our jobs. I looked into it, and everything seemed great. I met someone at the union office to talk about some stuff. It turns out that they didn't actually have any work for me, and basically wanted me to turn the rest of my company union (remember, I'm a first year apprentice). I basically told them that it would likely result in me quickly losing my job. They agreed, but wanted to go ahead with it anyway. I walked away.

The kicker was this though: For a few weeks after, I was being harassed by union electricians outside our jobsite during breaks. I'd be at the truck having coffee and they'd be there continually asking why we were trying to be unsafe, and be underpaid, and take work from brothers.

It was laughable.

Anyway, I'm working as an Electronics Technologist now, and I'm a member of the IBEW, but not because I sought it out, but because the job I chose is unionized.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

hardworkingstiff said:


> I can see some people being that way. I can also see someone who is a capitalist at heart thinking that a union is a socialist entity, and I can see those people having issues with a union.
> 
> Think about it, a union pushes to set a price for the workers. If contractors got together to try to set a price for their services (working together) it's called bid rigging and they face jail time.
> 
> ...





Bad Electrician said:


> I don't buy that, what I have seen is (at least in my age group 63 and my local) is men that could not get in due to poor union policies. Back in the day when you needed an your father, uncle or neighbor to get you in.
> 
> Advantages
> 
> ...


That post I made was mainly tongue in cheek. It was bait to get sbrn33 in here :laughing::laughing:

Lou, as a "true capitalist at heart" myself, I have no issues with unions. You call them "socialist organizations", which is fine. The problem is when the country/government is socialist. When they force you to follow it at gun point.

I have no issue with someone choosing to join a club that may have socialist leanings, I can spend my money any way that I want. I will give you an example: as a union member who worked pretty solidly, I logged 2,000+ hours every year. I only needed 1,200 hours for my healthcare and pension credit, the rest of that money went into the pot to help other members pay their way. Yes, that is a socialist thing, but I joined and agreed to it. The same way as I can choose to donate money to the needy if I want. 

It's a whole different story when the government is socialist and I have no choice, and money is stolen from me against my will, and if I don't pay I will be imprisoned, and if I fight back I will be shot and killed. 

Back to the union, I used it the same way as how I use a lawyer or an accountant. I paid for a service that yielded me better results than if I did it myself. That's pretty much it.



> Think about it, a union pushes to set a price for the workers. If contractors got together to try to set a price for their services (working together) it's called bid rigging and they face jail time.


 How is what the union is doing any different than what a temp agency does? That's really the heart of what the union is.



> I do find Hax's comments rather amusing though. On other subjects he has posted the every man for himself mentality and if you can't make it, tough. Yet, he is a firm believer is a socialist organization.


 I'd like you to explain this a bit better, what is so amusing? 

No one ever said life is fair. Those who get into a union have an advantage, but that does NOT, in any way shape or form, mean that those who didn't get into the union can't make a great life for themselves. I had an advantage in getting in a union, but that was only after the color of my skin and the amount of money my father made gave me a gross disadvantage in going to college.

Start your own union. Start your own company. Make a fart noise app for the iPhone and make millions of dollars. There are opportunities at every corner.

ETA: I have said this before but I will put it out there again, I don't agree with many of the laws that protect unions. And I never took part in those situations. My local is filled with contractors who joined voluntarily, not who were organized against their will. They signed because it benefited them. Our customers chose to use union work because they saw a benefit in it, not because they were extorted. I've mentioned this before, I worked on 3 Walmarts as a union electrician. The most anti-union company known to man chooses to use union labor to build their stores here. And not because of some conspiracy theory of threats and intimidation, just because they see it as their best option in the situation. That's the way it should be


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## Jhellwig (Jun 18, 2014)

Jrzy said:


> The main reason why you will see workers who have absolutely no affiliation with the union be so anti-union is simply jealousy. They are jealous that they didn't get the excellent training, the high wages, the huge compensation packages, the better conditions, etc.


That is bologna. In this area the ibew has only recently passed what I used to get non Union. The only ones that made more were on the road. Plus the union contractor at the plant I was at were working in the same crappy conditions I was and we constantly had to fix the stuff they messed up. When I went to the union job I am at now from my non union job the was less than a thousand dollar more in pay at the union place. The only thing that made it that way was the fact that the health insurance was free. 

The college I went to feed us the same line of bs that the union feeds its people. All it does is give you a bad attitude.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

bobbarker said:


> Catholic Church is far from anti-union, I think maybe you are confusing it with churches in the south and Mormons.
> 
> Lots of people do not like unions because more than likely they were turned down for membership although older people may have a beef as unions really acted like asses in the 1970's and 1980's by basically being exclusionary unless you happened to be related to a member and that made them arrogant and no one likes arrogance
> 
> Membership has fallen in unions due to a changing economy as the USA manufacturing base is now a complete joke. The jobs of "today" are more office and info related which is not a strong area for unions. Ignorance by people who know nothing about unions has also hurt unionism as some will say union members are thugs. People being fed news from right wing people have also hurt as they hate unions and feed the sheep false info to hide the fact that they really only care about business and not regular people by pitting people "us" against each other even though we have more in common than we do with business. Past arrogance of unions hurt membership. Southerners who for reasons I will never get hate unions although that is changing more and more as they see first hand how businesses mistreat workers particularly immigrant workers. The south is for the first time dealing with huge waves of immigrants while the north had the Irish, Italian etc etc wave of immigrants almost a century ago and those immigrants tended to unionize as time went on because they were treated like **** and had enough of it. Business groups and associations have hurt unions as they lobby politicians for exemptions to laws or laws favorable to them and not workers because its all about the money for both business and politicians. Failure of people to realize that business team up together to form groups or associations to lobby for their interests but when workers do the same under a union banner it is slanted as workers being greedy or wanting to hurt business while business interests are not slanted as ways to screw workers over.......


This is the best and truest answer I have heard someone say yet. 
This is addressing the issue of ..why have union memberships steadily declined as I posted in previous post.
I'm not in the Union , but would not be opposed to joining either. I'm not a
staunch Democrat nor am I a staunch Republican..I consider myself an attainable vote by either side because I tend to be down the middle in
my politics and there are many problems that I see on the Dems agenda
that do not jive with my moral values , not to mention the right to bear 
arms.
If you look at the history of Unions in America and how they developed ,
it really got started during the Great Depression and yes there were some
grant monies given to them from foreign sources that were pro socialism.

The issue of socialism vs capitalism will probably be with us Americans 
and Canadians for as long as our countries exist.

My pro union stance.
Right now , in the wake of 2008 housing fiasco / collapse , capitalists
are still being exposed for their inexcusable amount of unethical practices
and have shed a light on how the system does not give a rats ass about the middle class worker.It actually shows how they will readily rob them. This has
happened in the midst of organized labors decline. I submit to you that if
the unionized labor union member was given a choice as to who manages their financial future , it would and should be the union retirement system 
and not pyramid scheme running thieves .

I do not have an anti-union stance , but my "negatives" about the union
(which by the way are fixable) are..
* As stated above , the whole bloodline / relative thing is a problem
* I think a high number of members do not seem like they give a **** if 
new members join or not , so it's not exactly the warmest welcoming mat
* Maintaining a tight group of laborers is not possible with the existence
of selfish like behavior. (Individuals have to look out for each others 
welfare on the floor and stop acting as if that's their local leaderships job
only.) Similar to how military veterans are taught not to buddy **** the
guy next to them in the foxhole)
* Stewards who work out personal advantages for themselves and their 
clicks with management should be permanently banned from any
Stewardship roles.
* I'll end it here by saying , there should always be more room for 
additional membership in the Union .I disagree with the post says there 
isn't.
Quite frankly , if I were a higher up in the National Board of the AFL CIO
I would be setting a plan in motion to organize every single immigrant
that crosses our border. The Unions cannot afford dwindeling ranks.

AHH-BUDEE-AHH-BUDEEE-AHBUDEE..THATS ALL FOLKS!


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

hardworkingstiff said:


> I'm curious as to why you went to open shop from union shop. If you can find the time, could you share the reasoning?
> 
> Thanks.


Basically, not knowing what I was doing, business wise, Lou. I didn't vet the GC's I contracted with when I got into the commercial new construction market. Big mistake on my part. If you recall, there was a downturn in the economy in 1989. Three of the GC's I was working for went into bankrupsey and me right along with them. 

The union was in no way responsible for any of it. In fact, they were very instrumental in helping me to actually finish the jobs. A car dealership, a library for a college and a small mini mall. In the end, I got screwed out of almost 200k. That was big money back then.

That was it for me, the union and commercial new construction. 

So, I got involved in residencial new construction and struggled with that loosing proposition for the next 5 years until 1995 when we went strictly service. Then eventually brought on HVAC, Plumbing and opened a stove shop.


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## dawgs (Dec 1, 2007)

flyboy said:


> Basically, not knowing what I was doing, business wise, Lou. I didn't vet the GC's I contracted with when I got into the commercial new construction market. Big mistake on my part. If you recall, there was a downturn in the economy in 1989. Three of the GC's I was working for went into bankrupsey and me right along with them. The union was in no way responsible for any of it. In fact, they were very instrumental in helping me to actually finish the jobs. A car dealership, a library for a college and a small mini mall. In the end, I got screwed out of almost 200k. That was big money back then. That was it for me, the union and commercial new construction. So, I got involved in residencial new construction and struggled with that loosing proposition for the next 5 years until 1995 when we went strictly service. Then eventually brought on HVAC, Plumbing and opened a stove shop.


Just curious, Why did you not use union labor on your second go at it? Could they not support resi and service electricians for you?


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

dawgs said:


> Just curious, Why did you not use union labor on your second go at it? Could they not support resi and service electricians for you?


No, not really. Few, if any of the brothers really want to do Resi service.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

flyboy said:


> No, not really. Few, if any of the brothers really want to do Resi service.


Here in lies one other part to the failing of the union. Around here most of the unions have dissolved altogether the residential part (debatable why that is), they only have inside programs. A lot of contractors even if they wanted to, would not be able to go union, there are no workers to support their business type.

When I was looking into becoming signatory that was just one problem, the other was jurisdictions. I would have had to join 5 different locals to cover the area we were covering. This created some huge obstacles because none of the locals really wanted to play together, two were very workable, but the other 3 caused me not to sign up.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

flyboy said:


> No, not really. Few, if any of the brothers really want to do Resi service.


And even if they wanted to, few of them would be able to.

It's a shame because the IBEW offers an excellent apprenticeship that delves deep into theory, as well as awesome journeyman courses. But few people really take advantage of that. Many, or dare I saw most, just cruise thru the apprenticeship knowing that no man is left behind.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Switched said:


> Here in lies one other part to the failing of the union. Around here most of the unions have dissolved altogether the residential part (debatable why that is), they only have inside programs. A lot of contractors even if they wanted to, would not be able to go union, there are no workers to support their business type.


Our local had a B program for a long time. It was either very small commercial or resi. It became what we now have as the CE/CW program.

There was never really resi work, tho. It's no side's fault. Contractors didn't want to sign because there weren't properly trained men available, men didn't want to join because there weren't many contractors doing it and barely any work. Just a vicious cycle that killed it.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Jrzy said:


> The main reason why you will see workers who have absolutely no affiliation with the union be so anti-union is simply jealousy. They are jealous that they didn't get the excellent training, the high wages, the huge compensation packages, the better conditions, etc.


For me, it's not a matter of jealousy at all. I would love to be making $40+ an hour and have the gold plated benefits the union has to offer. In fact, 14 years ago I applied to and was accepted into the union apprenticeship program (thanks to a referral.) The union in my area is strong and still has certain market segments locked up (government, municipal, highway work), although they have been decimated by non-union competitors in commercial construction. 

But I can't in good conscience be a member of a labor union. I believe in merit based pay, and I despise that many union leaders and members (notice I said many, not all) are completely in bed with socialists aka Democrats. 

So for me, it is a matter of personal choice and conviction. If you can look the other way of the union's corruption and bad deeds for its pay and benefits, that's your choice and that's fine. It's definitely not an organization that I want to be part of.


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

Switched said:


> Here in lies one other part to the failing of the union. Around here most of the unions have dissolved altogether the residential part (debatable why that is), they only have inside programs. A lot of contractors even if they wanted to, would not be able to go union, there are no workers to support their business type.


Yeah, there really never was a "residential part" around here and to the best of my knowledge, there still isn't.



Switched said:


> When I was looking into becoming signatory that was just one problem, the other was jurisdictions. I would have had to join 5 different locals to cover the area we were covering. This created some huge obstacles because none of the locals really wanted to play ftogether, two were very workable, but the other 3 caused me not to sign up.


I was signed on with two different locals, one of them was 631, but I believe they merged with 363. When they were both around I recall them working well together.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MTW said:


> For me, it's not a matter of jealousy at all.


In a later post I said:


Jrzy said:


> That post I made was mainly tongue in cheek. It was bait to get sbrn33 in here :laughing::laughing:





> But I can't in good conscience be a member of a labor union. I believe in merit based pay,


 I believe in making as much money as I can, for whatever reason. If I could join a club and make more money, count me in. If I could pay an accountant to make me more money, sign me up. 



> and I despise that many union leaders and members (notice I said many, not all) are completely in bed with socialists aka Democrats.


 This is true. But it's also true of everything else. 

At least half (probably more) of every dollar you spend goes towards bedwetting liberals. It's just the way it is. You've taken a stand against unions for it, but what about the ketchup in your fridge? Huh? How about it Peter?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!


:laughing::thumbup::thumbup:


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

Jrzy said:


> And even if they wanted to, few of them would be able to.
> 
> It's a shame because the IBEW offers an excellent apprenticeship that delves deep into theory, as well as awesome journeyman courses. But few people really take advantage of that. Many, or dare I saw most, just cruise thru the apprenticeship knowing that no man is left behind.


Your right, I remember running a split shop for a little while and the union was ok with it. They were ok with it exactly for that reason. No one could do it.

The ones that cruised through the program didn't last more then a day with me or any of my foreman. We'd send them back.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Jrzy said:


> I believe in making as much money as I can, for whatever reason. If I could join a club and make more money, count me in. If I could pay an accountant to make me more money, sign me up.


That's your choice. Don't we have the freedom to choose and exercise our convictions? :blink: 



> This is true. But it's also true of everything else.
> 
> At least half (probably more) of every dollar you spend goes towards bedwetting liberals. It's just the way it is. You've taken a stand against unions for it, but what about the ketchup in your fridge? Huh? How about it Peter?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
> 
> ...


Sadly, you are right. Personally I like Hunts which is made by ConAgra which I'm sure is in bed with liberals somehow.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MTW said:


> That's your choice. Don't we have the freedom to choose and exercise our convictions? :blink:


 Peter, did anything I say insinuate that you should have any freedom taken away? I really don't know what you are taking about.



> Sadly, you are right. Personally I like Hunts which is made by ConAgra which I'm sure is in bed with liberals somehow.


And Teresa Heinz is married to John Kerry.


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

An social organization does not forfeit profit. It just means we have advantages as a collective that we might not otherwise. It's still very much a capitalist tool.

Our country was founded on collective action. To what extent is argued to this day.

"WE the PEOPLE of the UNITED states; to form a more perfect UNION-"


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## Jhellwig (Jun 18, 2014)

flyboy said:


> No, not really. Few, if any of the brothers really want to do Resi service.


I have a friend that used to run his own union ec business. He gave it up because all the hall would send him is the lazy bums that didn't want to do anything except sit on the bench.

What few union contractors that there are around here that do resi are not competitive at all to what the small guys charge.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

Jrzy said:


> I'd like you to explain this a bit better, what is so amusing?


Someone that has a heart rooted in capitalism (driving a product to the lowest cost, and merit pay) working in a union of people that are as a group, fighting to keep wages as high as possible seems amusing to me (especially when everyone has the same base pay, not based on merit). 

It's not an insult, I'm not trying to fight with you, it is just amusing to me.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

hardworkingstiff said:


> Someone that has a heart rooted in capitalism (driving a product to the lowest cost, and merit pay) working in a union of people that are as a group, fighting to keep wages as high as possible seems amusing to me (especially when everyone has the same base pay, not based on merit).


This whole open shop equals merit shop thing is just rhetoric. "Merit" is the reason why I worked solidly for 15 years while other people rode the bench. Merit is why Walmart uses union companies to build their stores here. Merit is why contractors signed with the union in order to use those men.

The IBEW is a trade union, not a labor union protecting bum workers at a car manufacturing plant. You have to work, you have to earn. And it's not perfect, nothing is.



> It's not an insult, I'm not trying to fight with you, it is just amusing to me.


 Be honest, you're trying to call me a hypocrite.

Lou, this is America, a place where anyone can make it, the land of opportunity. We have many rights, one of those is the freedom to assemble. Using that freedom, we can make a better life for ourselves. So wouldn't it be silly not to?

You seem to think that you know me and the way I feel. If that's true, then you know that I think anyone can get ahead, anyone can make a great life for themselves. There are so many opportunities out there (joining a union is just one of them), the only thing holding themselves back is their lack of ambition.


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## Electrozappo (Apr 8, 2014)

The people I work around claim that you make more than Union when it's based off merit. 
They also make the argument that you're essentially taxed for working this the thug theory comes in. 
These are false I've recently found out the local here in lol Angeles pays 12 an hour take home more than my employer and I work for one of the biggest in the area. 
Even the union journeymen make more than the big time formen do in my company. 
My president regularly reminds us how were one of the highest paying contractors in the los Angeles area (yet we don't even come close to Union pay, I don't know where he got that math) we get a esop which he claims makes up for not being the highest paid electricians around. 
Yet he seems to drive fancy fast cars with a new one every year. 
I really believe in this family thing he preaches about the company but after bleeding for them for 8 years it's about time they bleed alittle for me or I'm out. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

On our local High School Baseball team there was a young boy played alongside my son, who made a fortune selling upgrade parts for those air soft guns the kids play with using the internet and Ebay. When I say fortune, I mean fortune. He is going to University, but pretty much just like his dad, he really could stop working right now today and be fine for the rest of his life. So....... 
much as I rant and rave about the intrusion of government, this country we have is the worlds greatest thing. And the individual is the key to this great country. Union or non union, you can rule the world if you have the go get what you want attitude. I sat in a bar and scored me a whole townhouse development project. All because I slid my two week old business card down the bar to a stranger talking to another stranger. And that move led to other bigger and bigger projects. Let the leader be yourself.


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## bobbarker (Aug 6, 2015)

After reading some posts I am curious as to what is the difference in business groups lobbying state and federal politicians or other groups for interests that benefit them but when workers lobby for their interests that benefit them you start to hear the inevitable liberal, socialist, how dare they want more line of thinking. 
I as a union member have much much more in common with a non-union electrician than I will EVER have with business groups like the ABC, Business Roundtable, Retail Association of America, Securities Industry and Financial Markets Association, International Franchise Association and US Chamber of Commerce. Those groups spend BILLIONS to further their interests and its not for the benefit of the middle class so I ask you right leaning people or people who do not like unions WHY is it alright for businesses to group together to fight for their interests BUT not for workers to do the same. 

Why?


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

Electrozappo said:


> The people I work around claim that you make more than Union when it's based off merit.
> They also make the argument that you're essentially taxed for working this the thug theory comes in.
> These are false I've recently found out the local here in lol Angeles pays 12 an hour take home more than my employer and I work for one of the biggest in the area.
> Even the union journeymen make more than the big time formen do in my company.
> ...


The "family" doctrine is actually taught as an anti-union tactic.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

TGGT said:


> The "family" doctrine is actually taught as an anti-union tactic.


Yup.


Btw, I've been meaning to ask you, were you able to get into the inside wireman program or are you still in CE/CW?


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## bobbarker (Aug 6, 2015)

TGGT said:


> The "family" doctrine is actually taught as an anti-union tactic.


Very true. I came into my union through organization so I have heard the talks and watched the videos that are shown to workers in an organizing campaign and "family" is one of their go to things


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

bobbarker said:


> After reading some posts I am curious as to what is the difference in business groups lobbying state and federal politicians or other groups for interests that benefit them but when workers lobby for their interests that benefit them you start to hear the inevitable liberal, socialist, how dare they want more line of thinking.
> I as a union member have much much more in common with a non-union electrician than I will EVER have with business groups like the ABC, Business Roundtable, Retail Association of America, Securities Industry and Financial Markets Association, International Franchise Association and US Chamber of Commerce. Those groups spend BILLIONS to further their interests and its not for the benefit of the middle class so I ask you right leaning people or people who do not like unions WHY is it alright for businesses to group together to fight for their interests BUT not for workers to do the same.
> 
> Why?


Some system , cheap as possible had to replace slavery and collective
bargaining gets right in their way.


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

Jrzy said:


> Yup.
> 
> 
> Btw, I've been meaning to ask you, were you able to get into the inside wireman program or are you still in CE/CW?


JIW now. Turned out last June. 14k OTJ hours. I was about to be made foreman at my last company but the job was 120 miles round trip so I drug and took a job very close to home.

I've also started the safety and health committee and have been working with the assistant BM on improving steward presence and effectiveness on the job. Both efforts are ridiculous uphill battles. The level of apathy and cynicism has become systemic in our local. I am an idealist but no idea if I can help fix any of it but I'll try so long as I'm in the local. Hard when working 40+ hours a week.

I'm thinking about getting my masters license and going back to school for a bachelors.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

TGGT said:


> JIW now. Turned out last June. 14k OTJ hours. I was about to be made foreman at my last company but the job was 120 miles round trip so I drug and took a job very close to home.
> 
> I've also started the safety and health committee and have been working with the assistant BM on improving steward presence and effectiveness on the job. Both efforts are ridiculous uphill battles. The level of apathy and cynicism has become systemic in our local. I am an idealist but no idea if I can help fix any of it but I'll try so long as I'm in the local. Hard when working 40+ hours a week.
> 
> I'm thinking about getting my masters license and going back to school for a bachelors.


That's good, I am glad you got the JIW. 

Honestly, I didn't think you were going to. Every other instance that I've seen of someone going into the CE/CW program in order to one day become a JIW has always failed, they were stuck as a CE/CW. I'm happy that it worked out for you.


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## The_BeardedCaptain (Apr 5, 2016)

I looked at both options IEC and IBEW. I went with the IBEW because as a first year I will make 14.99/hour have excellent health insurance and the multiple retirement plans. The IEC starts at 10.50 and when you graduate you make like 23 an hour. By the time I complete the program with the union I will make 29.98 an hour if not more because contract negotiations start next year. So I looked at what will benefit my family and I more and the union was the way to go. Plus at my local it really does feel like a brotherhood and I couldn't pass that up.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

lighterup said:


> To act as if **** does not roll down hill in a union environment is
> disingenuous ..the laws of physics in life are inescapable...I think if
> you address the real question of "why are unions steadily declining
> in the U.S. over the last several decades" , this OP's questions can
> be more accurately answered.


I think if you put it like that - frame the question's answer by pointing to the fact that there has been a decline in union membership, that is the epitome of disingenuous. 

Unions are on the decline for a multitude of reasons. Union busting by the corporate elite is one, not to mention corporate America's ongoing anti-union campaign. Anti union propoganda films shown to all new hires and annually by the likes of WalMart and Target, the loss of our manufacturing base, the illegal misclassification of employees as management exempt, the list is endless.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Jrzy said:


> The main reason why you will see workers who have absolutely no affiliation with the union be so anti-union is simply jealousy. They are jealous that they didn't get the excellent training, the high wages, the huge compensation packages, the better conditions, etc.


Before I joined local 3 I worked nonunion. The anti-union rhetoric was well ingrained in my co-workers mentality. None of the players had ever been in the union, and only knew "facts" that the boss saw to it everyone was aware of. "Facts" like yea, they make more but are laid off 1/2 a year or more, yea, they have the big work but you're just a number and do the same thing every day for months on end, facts like-they have a 9 month waiting list for hiring, or they have to pay thousands in dues, they're lazy, and on and on... 

And for a person who doesn't know any better, has no information coming from a union source or even a completely neutral but honest source, it isn't that difficult for a boss to influence the opinions the employees subscribe to.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

IslandGuy said:


> I think if you put it like that - frame the question's answer by pointing to the fact that there has been a decline in union membership, that is the epitome of disingenuous.
> 
> Unions are on the decline for a multitude of reasons. Union busting by the corporate elite is one, not to mention corporate America's ongoing anti-union campaign. Anti union propoganda films shown to all new hires and annually by the likes of WalMart and Target, the loss of our manufacturing base, the illegal misclassification of employees as management exempt, the list is endless.


I agree with you. These are some of the reasons. The original comment that
you may have not caught was saying that non union people get ripped off
and union people don't. I know of many EC's both union and non union
that have both abandoned the resi new construction market because they
are both sick to death of never getting paid in full. Both.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

lighterup said:


> I agree with you. These are some of the reasons. The original comment that
> you may have not caught was saying that non union people get ripped off
> and union people don't. I know of many EC's both union and non union
> that have both abandoned the resi new construction market because they
> are both sick to death of never getting paid in full. Both.


Resi just seems to be who can rough it in for just more than free and still remain in business.

As for Union an open shop employees that get screwed over by owners, I think that is fairly equal, both sides have abusers in the management roles.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

lighterup said:


> I agree with you. These are some of the reasons. The original comment that
> you may have not caught was saying that non union people get ripped off
> and union people don't. I know of many EC's both union and non union
> that have both abandoned the resi new construction market because they
> are both sick to death of never getting paid in full. Both.


Hey nonunion contractors, grab a beer! Do it or forever wish you had:

Well to an extent that is true. Let me preface this by saying that I am painting with a broad brush here, but what I say is more applicable than not.

In the nonunion sector - there is no brotherhood mentality - it's every man for himself and the entire shop is competing not only against other contractors, but against individual co-workers as well. More often than not - the bosses prohibit employees from disclosing their wages. They don't want Joe, who is clearly head and shoulders better than Mark, to find out Mark is getting paid more simple because Mark was a better negotiator than Joe will ever be. This is commonplace in the nonunion sector.

In addition, even though Mark is 24 and lives at home and has nobody to support there is no way in hell a nonunion contractor is going to pay him more than someone with a wife and kids and a mortgage or rent to pay. Unless of course, Mark has a lot of street smarts and is onto the games nonunion contractors play which contractors do everything in their power to prevent from happening. In fact, many nonunion contractors who are hiring won't hire a guy who is damn good and knows what he worth because they only want someone they can chew up and spit out.

Their business model is cheaper is better, it's applied not only to materials but employees as well. They prefer to load a job with helpers and as few well paid mechanics as possible. It's a short sighted and unprofessional tactic that is very very simple on it's face and the truth is, nonunion contractors for the most part, no matter how good they are as electricians, turn out to be very poor businessmen. Ametuerish. They go into business, hang a shingle, and pretty much wing it for the rest of their lives, learning as they go. If they become successful, they get very cocky - think they're king of the world because they are king of the little feifdom they've created for themselves, and tend to be their own worst enemy. 

I am mindful of the fact that union contractors also play games so, spare me the union horror story rebuttal. Whether union or nonunion, the name of the game is to make money. Greed as a motivator never results in a wake of shiny happy people holding hands. 

The major difference between the 2 entities is simply that hay - be as greedy as you want, but first and foremost you will pay me a minimum hourly wage and provide a benfit package that is respectable and follow some simple,general working rules, conditions and standards or you're going to have to get off the field. AFter that's all taken care of you're free to rake in whatever profits you can realize but you will not be doing that at MY expense or the expense of my fellow coworkers. 

As for abandoning the resi market - this is the bed nonunion contractors created so if they can't sleep in it - it's their own damn fault. They're the ones with the one sided business model that created a boatload of residential wiremen who work 8 hours a day for $**** wages while the contractor is making at least 2-5x what the employee is, and for what? In the residential arena and when it comes to contracting, wiring houses is basic simple child's play that any electrician with 2 brain cells could do in his sleep afer only a couple of weeks of being shown all of the speed tricks.

Every nonunion contractor around here has "Custom residential wiring" on the side of his van. But they're the ones hiring greenies, paying them **** and then seeing them become your own competition that you created because you were so phucking greedy and pretentious to believe thay only you are entitled to the basics in life and it's OK to step on a number of employees to get your come uppance. The arrogance is so profound that despite the fact that you have people you call helpers wiring houses, completely, and alone, you still refuse to acknowledge that they are indeed electricians, they're just not seeing that fact in the matter of their wages. Because you know they know nothing of motor controls, Industrial wiring, transformer theory or whateverv else you can throw in their faces as ammo to defend your lopsided policies regarding equitable distribution.

ANd to add insult to injury - you have the "trunkslammers" you so despise - belmishes on the face of contracting that came about solely because of need and that actual factual reality nonunion contractors themselves created by sending their employees to jobsites in their own cars, with their own tools, sometimes their own bits, generator, ladder, benders, and then you have the unmitigated GALL to bitch when the employee realizes the truth- your little .o2 cent piece of paper hanging behind your desk is the only thing standing between you and their paying their bills and living a better life, because $hit - what the hell do they need you for really? You're nothing but a tick - a bloodsucking pimp totally unnecessary to the process of getting electrical work done and actually make more money off the employees work than the employee does.

When an employee realizes he can hang 5 ceiling fans for more money than you pay him for an entire week - stop acting surprised thay they actually have the ability to think for themselves.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

IslandGuy said:


> Hey nonunion contractors, grab a beer! Do it or forever wish you had:
> 
> Well to an extent that is true. Let me preface this by saying that I am painting with a broad brush here, but what I say is more applicable than not.
> 
> ...


You're using my quotes , so I'm assuming you are preaching your sermon 
to me. I have no idea what the **** your talking about. Are you under some
kind of idea that I'm an anti union guy? If so , you don't know me or my
lifes experiences.
Understand , I've lived both . Your not going to teach me anything about 
this subject , that I have not already lived...so carry on. whatever.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

lighterup said:


> You're using my quotes , so I'm assuming you are preaching your sermon
> to me. I have no idea what the **** your talking about. Are you under some
> kind of idea that I'm an anti union guy? If so , you don't know me or my
> lifes experiences.
> ...


When you go outside there are mosquitoes and 'noseeums' around right now. I normally ignore most of them and just carry on with what I'm doing. Any man that endorses Hitlery and uses her name as the image that represents him is like a 'noseeum' small, annoying and to be ignored as much as possible.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

MechanicalDVR said:


> When you go outside there are mosquitoes and 'noseeums' around right now. I normally ignore most of them and just carry on with what I'm doing. Any man that endorses Hitlery and uses her name as the image that represents him is like a 'noseeum' small, annoying and to be ignored as much as possible.



I realize there are trolls on the web who may be mean spirited people &
have a need to slam people. 
Dennis can probably shed more light on that psych profile than I could. 
It can be challenging , to MAINTAIN IN CONTEXT , a conversation on a 
forum like this because some jump into it without reading all posts from 
start to finish and then have a thought which deviates from the original
conversation etc...


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## Milwookie (May 24, 2016)

Why must the Dunning-Krugers spread their political crap everywhere?


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

jrannis said:


> Again, it's a small community and quite a bit of peer accountability. Lots of checks and balances in place.
> It's not unusual to take a call, get handed a set of plans and be expected to run a job.


Is the EC from out of state in your scenario? Is the EC leaving you with no 
help on a rather large job and giving a time limit that is unreasonable?
You don't necessarily have to answer me..it's really a question for you to
honestly answer for yourself.

As for me , I would not work for anyone who leaves employees alone on electricians jobs. In my book there is no job that an electrician should be 
left alone on. what happens if a major safety issue develops?


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## Electrozappo (Apr 8, 2014)

I think the bottom line for nonunion guys is being afraid of not being cared for or taken care of its just if there's no work then there's no work too bad too sad. The big one in ca is if there's a sprinkle your going home without pay so you'll always be out of work in winter and spring. They fail to realize that there's no real big push in schedules at the end of the year due to the holidays and weather it's just not a productive time of year and contractors plan around that. 
But in reality big merit shops don't care much. Mine is alright but as we've grown there's a lot of guys that have been through thick and thin and are simply forgotten about. 

Can you Union guys say you've felt that the guys down at the hall really cared about you and your family 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Electrozappo said:


> Can you Union guys say you've felt that the guys down at the hall really cared about you and your family


Yes, I have seen the hall do countless things to help guys in bad situations. 

I only asked for help once, and they gave it to me. Due to my illnesses, they knew I wouldn't be coming back, but they helped extend my medical insurance far longer than I was supposed to have it.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

Milwookie said:


> Why must the Dunning-Krugers spread their political crap everywhere?


Nice read, thanks.


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## bobbarker (Aug 6, 2015)

Electrozappo said:


> I think the bottom line for nonunion guys is being afraid of not being cared for or taken care of its just if there's no work then there's no work too bad too sad. The big one in ca is if there's a sprinkle your going home without pay so you'll always be out of work in winter and spring. They fail to realize that there's no real big push in schedules at the end of the year due to the holidays and weather it's just not a productive time of year and contractors plan around that.
> But in reality big merit shops don't care much. Mine is alright but as we've grown there's a lot of guys that have been through thick and thin and are simply forgotten about.
> 
> Can you Union guys say you've felt that the guys down at the hall really cared about you and your family
> ...


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## Milwookie (May 24, 2016)

Maybe I'm wrong, but I get the impression why unions tend to more often appeal to the liberal mindset is the feeling of helping each other out of a social obligation, as opposed to a "your worth is solely based on your work" mentality. A very Ayn Rand kind of pull yourself up by your bootstraps every man for himself attitude. 

I feel like people like Rush Limbaugh have painted a picture that people on welfare are all minirities who are capable of working but won't, as opposed to people who didn't necessarily have the same opportunities and as a result are struggling to feed their family and always in some sort of crisis.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

This **** is way over my head ...I'm not college educated . If I have a political
opinion , without the education that you have , does that mean I have the...how
do you say it??..Dining at Krogers ///thing-uh-mu-bob?


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## Electrozappo (Apr 8, 2014)

Milwookie said:


> Maybe I'm wrong, but I get the impression why unions tend to more often appeal to the liberal mindset is the feeling of helping each other out of a social obligation, as opposed to a "your worth is solely based on your work" mentality. A very Ayn Rand kind of pull yourself up by your bootstraps every man for himself attitude.
> 
> I feel like people like Rush Limbaugh have painted a picture that people on welfare are all minirities who are capable of working but won't, as opposed to people who didn't necessarily have the same opportunities and as a result are struggling to feed their family and always in some sort of crisis.




As a former hippie anarchist I can say it's all about what Bernie feeds off of. 
Screw the man and big fat cats. Their all greedy money whores. 
I went from one far side (economicly) to the other and I now find myself coming back to the middle, becoming a old school democrat which is super conservative by today's standards. 

Here's a good song for a union calling card 
Yeh, this one's for the workers who toil night and day 
By hand and by brain to earn your pay 
Who for centuries long past for no more than your bread 
Have bled for your countries and counted your dead 

In the factories and mills, in the shipyards and mines 
We've often been told to keep up with the times 
For our skills are not needed, they've streamlined the job 
And with sliderule and stopwatch our pride they have robbed 

[Chorus:] 
We're the first ones to starve, we're the first ones to die 
The first ones in line for that pie-in-the-sky 
And we're always the last when the cream is shared out 
For the worker is working when the fat cat's about 

And when the sky darkens and the prospect is war 
Who's given a gun and then pushed to the fore 
And expected to die for the land of our birth
Though we've never owned one lousy handful of earth? 

[Chorus x3]

All of these things the worker has done 
From tilling the fields to carrying the gun 
We've been yoked to the plough since time first began 
And always expected to carry the can

It really does paint an accurate picture though. We're licensed professionals and as such I believe We should be able to do alittle bit more than just pay bills. 
For the record I am no Bernie fan, he is an enemy of the republic but I understand completely where he and his supporters are coming from
As for rush he's a God in his own eyes I can't stand the chubbers 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## bobbarker (Aug 6, 2015)

I prefer "The Gauntlet" by the Dropkicks but your song is nice also


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

I'm a loner, and yes as a matter of fact I did build that so FU to the ass that came up that line.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

Jrzy said:


> Be honest, you're trying to call me a hypocrite.


No, I'm not. I'm just amused.


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

Electrozappo said:


> Can you Union guys say you've felt that the guys down at the hall really cared about you and your family
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes, but only the guys I've befriended, but I'm sure there will be more as I develop my network. There are others that I believe are just in it for themselves, which is their right so long as they pay their dues in my opinion. 

We don't all have to be best buds. The biggest issue I see in my local is the lack of involvement, the silent majority, if you will. There's always somebody that gets up and spouts ignorant BS and can't come up with a logical argument once challenged. Even if I don't agree with somebody you can tell when they've done their research and developed an articulate opinion.

Being in a right to work state means we need to do a better job at selling ourselves because the culture and political climate is already slanted against union membership, we need to think outside of the box if we want anything more than what we already have.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

hardworkingstiff said:


> No, I'm not. I'm just amused.


Liar.


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