# Arc flash



## Bbsound (Dec 16, 2011)

Working primarily is healthcare facilities we often do not have the luxery of shutting down equipment. We do use blankets, double triangle tools, 40 cal arc suits, etc when we do work hot. 
We do however do small shutdowns usually early in the morning whenever possible.


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

I wear the bulwark 8.7 shirts and the wrangler FR pants 23.7 ATPV rating. I have moon suit and am required by rule to not do hot work. I do hot work. I have not had arc flash training. I have a copy of NFPA 70E. I try to read up on it when I have spare time.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Bbsound said:


> Working primarily is healthcare facilities we often do not have the luxery of shutting down equipment....


 What's more disruptive: A planned shutdown or an unplanned outage?

More than once I've seen an accident during hotwork shut down a critical power panel, and in once case it dumped the main and took out an entire pharmaceutical plant. The results were far worse than if someone had figured out how to plan the outage.

I'm not throwing stones; I've also done hot work because an "outage couldn't be tolerated". But I think we should at least be honest and admit that it's playing Russian roulette.

-John


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## noarcflash (Sep 14, 2011)

I guess that depends on the panel. I do alot of 208y work, light manufacturing / commerical. No heavy switch gear. The 150-200amp sub panels are nothing more than a glorified residential panel.

the 600amp main services are where I start to get concerned about PPE. In fact, I have serious hesitations about opening them up hot. I am rethinking about how I work on these big service entrances, or anything bigger than a 40/40 with serious fault current.





Big John said:


> What's more disruptive: A planned shutdown or an unplanned outage?
> 
> More than once I've seen an accident during hotwork shut down a critical power panel, and in once case it dumped the main and took out an entire pharmaceutical plant. The results were far worse than if someone had figured out how to plan the outage.
> 
> ...


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

I will do hot work. I have all the tools and PPE to do hot work. I've attended several classes on arc flash calculations (each instructor has a different idea). Still, I prefer not to do hot work if there's another way. If you're troubleshooting, especially in NFPA 79 type panels, it's hard to get around it. I'll happily reschedule an after hours shutdown, even if it means working at night or on the weekend, if I can do the work properly while the work is deenergized.


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## garfield (Jul 30, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> I will do hot work. I have all the tools and PPE to do hot work. I've attended several classes on arc flash calculations (each instructor has a different idea). Still, I prefer not to do hot work if there's another way. If you're troubleshooting, especially in NFPA 79 type panels, it's hard to get around it. I'll happily reschedule an after hours shutdown, even if it means working at night or on the weekend, if I can do the work properly while the work is deenergized.


Do you charge more for after hours work?


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

garfield said:


> Do you charge more for after hours work?


Of course. Everyone does. Everyone should, at least. Shutdown work necessarily involves a lot of planning, so it's usually being done at a set price for the "job", so folks don't necessarily know they're paying a bit more. 

The trick with taking an outage it to not offer options. Tell them plainly that they'll need to take an outage to do the work, and ask only if Friday night or Saturday night would be best. Something along those lines. Not, "do you want me to turn off your power" or not.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

I do after hours when they give me the time window to shut the system down then I will go in do some manteance work as need to. But I do work on hot from time to time but I will try to advoid it much as possible.

Best time genrally useally on the weekend when the company is pretty much down on the weekend and there are few case on the hoildays as well.

Merci,
Marc


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## noarcflash (Sep 14, 2011)

how much time do you spend with the poco to make arrangements to shut down on a friday night ?

and will the poco stick around, or you have to wait until they come back ?


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

Bbsound said:


> Working primarily is healthcare facilities we often do not have the luxery of shutting down equipment. We do use blankets, double triangle tools, 40 cal arc suits, etc when we do work hot.
> We do however do small shutdowns usually early in the morning whenever possible.


Nonesense, we do plenty of hospital work and always during a shutdown. Usually at night on the weekends after the last surgery at night and back up before the first one in the morning.


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

noarcflash said:


> How many of you guys are getting into this arc flash training, and no working on hot panels or any live work at all.???
> 
> 70E training, with the moon suit.


Getting into it? Been doing it this way for years, 70E has been around since 1979. 

If your training left you with a "moon suit" as your only option you had poor training.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Zog said:


> Getting into it? Been doing it this way for years, 70E has been around since 1979.
> 
> If your training left you with a "moon suit" as your only option you had poor training.


That's my biggest gripe with the 70E training that's out there. Much of it is incomplete, some of it is plainly poor, and it's really hard to figure out who's giving you the real scoop. I ended up just taking several until I think I'm now able to decode what I'm really supposed to do. I've also come to the conclusion that if you have 10 guys calculate incident energy, you'll get about 6 different conclusions. Some based on whether they used the IEEE method or the 70E method, but most of the differences are based on how much actual effort they put into getting solid information to perform the calc from. 

/rant.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> I will do hot work. I have all the tools and PPE to do hot work. I've attended several classes on arc flash calculations (each instructor has a different idea). Still, I prefer not to do hot work if there's another way. If you're troubleshooting, especially in NFPA 79 type panels, it's hard to get around it. I'll happily reschedule an after hours shutdown, even if it means working at night or on the weekend, if I can do the work properly while the work is deenergized.


When you say you will do hot work, what is your level of acceptable danger? Will you work near the bus bars in high amperage switch gear or set a bucket, both with the potential to incinerate you? Or are we talking entering a few circuits into a 120/208 panel?


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Peter D said:


> When you say you will do hot work, what is your level of acceptable danger? Will you work near the bus bars in high amperage switch gear or set a bucket, both with the potential to incinerate you? Or are we talking entering a few circuits into a 120/208 panel?


Yes, and yes. But the potential to incinerate thing is mitigated by PPE. The potential to cave my chest in, burn me mildly, or knock me down worries me more. The potential to cause major property damage worries me most.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

noarcflash said:


> how much time do you spend with the poco to make arrangements to shut down on a friday night ?
> 
> and will the poco stick around, or you have to wait until they come back ?


An outage seldom means the PoCo is involved. It's often as simple as locking off a breaker in the MDP to make a panel, MCC lineup, or other equipment dead. In my area, the bigger customers have an air switch you can throw yourself anyhow -or- they own the padmounts so you can just pull the elbows. If it's direct metered, few meters are locked in my area, and the PoCo's have no problem with a recognized electrician cutting the seal and pulling the meter, as long as you give them a call to tell them that you did it.


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> That's my biggest gripe with the 70E training that's out there. Much of it is incomplete, some of it is plainly poor, and it's really hard to figure out who's giving you the real scoop. I ended up just taking several until I think I'm now able to decode what I'm really supposed to do. I've also come to the conclusion that if you have 10 guys calculate incident energy, you'll get about 6 different conclusions. Some based on whether they used the IEEE method or the 70E method, but most of the differences are based on how much actual effort they put into getting solid information to perform the calc from.
> 
> /rant.


Yep, a lot of the training out there is crap, guys having no idea what they are talking about or more importantly how to apply the requirements to the audiences needs.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> The potential to cause major property damage worries me most.


Yes, and for that reason alone, hot work makes no sense to me. The potential to fatally damage critical parts of the electrical system seems to outweigh any benefit to working live.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Peter D said:


> Yes, and for that reason alone, hot work makes no sense to me. The potential to fatally damage critical parts of the electrical system seems to outweigh any benefit to working live.


I remember manchestersparky saying one time that he always made his guys sweep the top of ordinary panelboards before removing the cover for debris that could potentially fall, causing damage. Even the seemingly innocuous task of removing a cover can cause a surprise. I can't tell you how many times I've taken off a cover and found the cover was the only thing holding a few breakers barely clipped in. I removed a cover screw one time that must have been hard pressed against the feeder conductor insulation, and all it took was a few turns out for it to finally wear through to the conductor metal and make a little spark show.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

Our 70E training was easy.
Lock & tag it
No hot work
Here is your size 3XXX 8 cal coveralls/lid/shield & tools.
BTW,, you need to quickly complete jobs. ;-)
Sign here__________

Training completed before 9am coffee break.

Never a mention of how,what or why & no arc flash studies, not even a generic sticker.

Oh ya, last few times I asked for after hour shut down,, boss said "No".


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Wirenuting said:


> Our 70E training was easy.
> Lock & tag it
> No hot work
> Here is your size 3XXX 4 cal coveralls/lid/shield & tools.
> ...


I've had that type of training, but the bad part is that something like a 4 cal suit can be more than you need -or worse- less than you need, to get in to verify that the equipment is deenergized.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

MDShunk said:


> I've had that type of training, but the bad part is that something like a 4 cal suit can be more than you need -or worse- less than you need, to get in to verify that the equipment is deenergized.


Oops, I went to type 8 cal.

Now I'm double safe right? LoL

I have fought this battle here and gave up.
I feel bad for the young guys starting out here as they don't know any better.

Most successful bosses surround themselves with the smartest people they can find.
Here they surround themselves stupid people so they look the smartest. 

A clogged toilet is a bigger emergency then a smoking breaker.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Wirenuting said:


> A clogged toilet is a bigger emergency then a smoking breaker.


Such is often the case for the maintenance operation. The tasks that will make the most amount of people happy get the highest priority.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Wirenuting said:


> ...I feel bad for the young guys starting out here as they don't know any better....


 That's what always pissed me off about the peer-pressure to do hot work: Very often it gets applied to young, ignorant guys who end up getting convinced that taking unnecessary risks is what makes them a "real" electrician. 

If you want to risk damage or personal injury, it's your prerogative, but it's not anyone's place to encourage others to take that risk.

-John


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

Big John said:


> That's what always pissed me off about the peer-pressure to do hot work: Very often it gets applied to young, ignorant guys who end up getting convinced that taking unnecessary risks is what makes them a "real" electrician.
> 
> If you want to risk damage or personal injury, it's your prerogative, but it's not anyone's place to encourage others to take that risk.
> 
> -John


I agree with you. 
One of our biggest problems is having supervision that has no real trade experience. 
Most of the new guys just finished a maintenance apprenticeship that gave them a "rounded" training. They were not rotated with the older tradesmen. They sat in class, gun decked their daily logs and were called trained. Management gave themselves pats on the back for a job well done.


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## noarcflash (Sep 14, 2011)

MDShunk said:


> An outage seldom means the PoCo is involved. It's often as simple as locking off a breaker in the MDP to make a panel, MCC lineup, or other equipment dead. In my area, the bigger customers have an air switch you can throw yourself anyhow -or- they own the padmounts so you can just pull the elbows. If it's direct metered, few meters are locked in my area, and the PoCo's have no problem with a recognized electrician cutting the seal and pulling the meter, as long as you give them a call to tell them that you did it.


just today, at an office building. trans S pan, 208Y. the 800amp main hasn't been excerised in 25-30 years. Do you think I'm going to excersise a 3 phase 800 amp main that hasn't been touched in 25 years.  not me, not even with a remote operator. there are no replacements available if it doesn't reset. probably call for a panel replacement, and a week long outage should the main not reset.
The pad mount belongs to the poco. pulling the meter does nothing.
What do you do ???? walk away from the job, and make 20 phone calls to schedule the poco, and building manager to be on site at midnight. there is alot of planning and thought into a pad mount shut down. temp lighting, temp power.


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

noarcflash said:


> just today, at an office building. trans S pan, 208Y. the 800amp main hasn't been excerised in 25-30 years. Do you think I'm going to excersise a 3 phase 800 amp main that hasn't been touched in 25 years.  not me, not even with a remote operator. there are no replacements available if it doesn't reset.


 There are replacements and I would bring one along, or at least have it ready in the shop. 



noarcflash said:


> What do you do ???? walk away from the job, and make 20 phone calls to schedule the poco, and building manager to be on site at midnight. there is alot of planning and thought into a pad mount shut down. temp lighting, temp power.


 Yes there is, many companies do this all the time. Try shutting down a Ford plant, or a NASA facility, or a Google server. Those take real planning.


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## noarcflash (Sep 14, 2011)

Zog said:


> There are replacements and I would bring one along, or at least have it ready in the shop.


OK, I'll get you the make and model #. You can order me a main breaker.


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## socalelect (Nov 14, 2011)

noarcflash said:


> OK, I'll get you the make and model #. You can order me a main breaker.


I bet zog has one on the shelf


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## noarcflash (Sep 14, 2011)

just remembered, it's an LDP panel board. I believe it's made by Federal Pacific. 1980 era.

I think FPE changed names many times. Wouldn't even know where to look for parts.


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

noarcflash said:


> just remembered, it's an LDP panel board. I believe it's made by Federal Pacific. 1980 era.
> 
> I think FPE changed names many times. Wouldn't even know where to look for parts.


80's? Thats new stuff, and you are confusing Federal Pacific and FPE Federal Pioneer Equipment, I have a ton of both up to 4000A.


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

socalelect said:


> I bet zog has one on the shelf


If he does not have it on the shelf, replace the panel. No questions asked.


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

Zog said:


> 80's? Thats new stuff, and you are confusing Federal Pacific and FPE Federal Pioneer Equipment, I have a ton of both up to 4000A.


Breaker guru. Show the pic of the shop....


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## noarcflash (Sep 14, 2011)

that's great. local supply houses don't want to take the time to research older parts.

I'll get the exact #'s next time out.


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