# GFI vs GFCi



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

You say toe-may-toe, I say tuh-ma-toe.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

GFCI is the proper term.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Magnettica said:


> GFCI is the proper term.


Dat true.,,

however some will get confused with GFI breaker which it will have 30ma tripping level while the GFCI will have 6 ma trip level.

Merci.
Marc


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

frenchelectrican said:


> Dat true.,,
> 
> however some will get confused with GFI breaker which it will have 30ma tripping level while the GFCI will have 6 ma trip level.
> 
> ...


I always call the 30mA trips Class B GFCI's.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

frenchelectrican said:


> Dat true.,,
> 
> however some will get confused with GFI breaker which it will have 30ma tripping level while the GFCI will have 6 ma trip level.
> 
> ...


Even I did not know that difference. Is that really true?


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> Even I did not know that difference. Is that really true?


The 30mA ones are usually used for heat trace and snow melt equipment. They are not for personnel protection.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Jlarson said:


> The 30mA ones are usually used for heat trace and snow melt equipment. They are not for personnel protection.


Ah...there's the rub. I thought all GFCIs were for personnel protection.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> Ah...there's the rub. I thought all GFCIs were for personnel protection.


Nope, just the 6mA ones.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

I know few breaker manufacter will put a postsuffex lettering or numbers one of the two typically say EPD or simauir to that and 30ma GFCI one of few ways to indentify it.

I know the GFCI and GFI breakers look the same but diffrent setting so it will take you a extra second or so to double check the model numbers when you have to replace the breaker for some reason or order a new one.

Merci.
Marc


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Jlarson said:


> Nope, just the 6mA ones.


I thought the whole deal about GFCIs was to protect humans. I can see where it would be beneficial to have it for all purposes.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

> Ground-Fault Circuit Interrupter (GFCI). *A device intended
> for the protection of personnel* that functions to deenergize
> a circuit or portion thereof within an established
> period of time when a current to ground exceeds the values
> established for a Class A device.





Jlarson said:


> The 30mA ones are usually used for heat trace and snow melt equipment. They are not for personnel protection.


That makes them GFP not GFCIs.

I do not think anyone makes a 'class B' GFCI at this time.



> Ground-Fault Protection of Equipment. A system intended
> to provide protection of equipment from damaging
> line-to-ground fault currents by operating to cause a disconnecting
> means to open all ungrounded conductors of the
> ...





> 427.22 Equipment Protection. Ground-fault protection of
> equipment shall be provided for electric heat tracing and
> heating panels......


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> I do not think anyone makes a 'class B' GFCI at this time.


QO breakers with the part# suffix of EPD are one that comes to mind off hand. Common spec for heat trace in my experience.

I guess they are more of GFP then GFCIs but...


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Jlarson said:


> QO breakers with the part# suffix of EPD are one that comes to mind off hand. Common spec for heat trace in my experience.



Again to the NEC those are GFP breakers, not GFCI.

http://ecatalog.squared.com/techlib/docdetail.cfm?oid=0900892680126ecf


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> Again to the NEC those are GFP breakers, not GFCI.
> 
> http://ecatalog.squared.com/techlib/docdetail.cfm?oid=0900892680126ecf


See new sig line. :laughing:


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Jlarson said:


> See new sig line. :laughing:





Jlarson said:


> Terminology: mine's different than yours, deal with it.


I don't care if you call them 'Class W twinkies', but I am pretty sure the OP was looking for more than your own personal terminology. :yes:


Your a dead man walking anyway...


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> Your a dead man walking anyway...


Aw, they will have to get in line. Its a long line too, don't know why though...


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> Your a dead man walking anyway...


Ya know comments like that have more effect when more than just two people know the back story...


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## etb (Sep 8, 2010)

Some folks call the 30mA's ELCIs (equipment leakage CI).


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

etb said:


> Some folks call the 30mA's ELCIs (equipment leakage CI).


Once again you can call them what you like, BUT to continue to be professionals we must as a group utilize standard terminology, to avoid confusion.


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## sparky970 (Mar 19, 2008)

RIVETER said:


> Even I did not know that difference. Is that really true?


They also make them rated for 50ma.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

brian john said:


> Once again you can call them what you like, BUT to continue to be professionals we must as a group utilize standard terminology, to avoid confusion.


:laughing:


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

Best thread ever!! This is a huge Peeve of mine, even more so than smiley faces.

Stick-y, stick-y, stick-y!!!


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> Ah...there's the rub. I thought all GFCIs were for personnel protection.


Ventricular fibrilation occurs at 10-20mA, so a 30mA "GFCI" would not do much to protect a person.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

I respect the days of standard outlets w/ toilet boll covers outdoors, pools with lighting not gfi protected, standard outlets in bathrooms. It made it easy to off someone if you didn't like them.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Zog said:


> Best thread ever!! This is a huge Peeve of mine, even more so than smiley faces.
> 
> Stick-y, stick-y, stick-y!!!


:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Ok let me give this standardized term thing a shot. 

GFCI - for personnel protection. 
GFP -for equipment protection.

Aw, I guess this _could_ work...


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## jefft110 (Jul 7, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> I don't care if you call them 'Class W twinkies', but I am pretty sure the OP was looking for more than your own personal terminology. :yes:
> 
> 
> *Your* a dead man walking anyway...




You've mastered electricity, and the art of 'smart ass', yet you struggle with basic contractions.

Too damn funny.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

jefft110 said:


> You've mastered electricity, and the art of 'smart ass', yet you struggle with basic contractions.
> 
> Too damn funny.


Things like spelling and punctuation are not as important as speed and effect when insulting me. :laughing:


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

jefft110 said:


> You've mastered electricity, and the art of 'smart ass', yet you struggle with basic contractions.
> 
> Too damn funny.



Your write, I amz stupidz.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> Your write, I amz stupidz.


No argument there.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> Your write, I amz stupidz.


Guys,guys, it's not Sunday yet, I don't have any popcorn prepared.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Shockdoc said:


> Guys,guys, it's not Sunday yet, I don't have any popcorn prepared.


We had to get started early. We are compensating for a disturbance in the forum.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Shockdoc said:


> Guys,guys, it's not Sunday yet, I don't have any popcorn prepared.


 
Then start cranking the popcorn machine now due some of us are allready ahead of ya.

Merci.
Marc


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Speaking of Popcorn time here something you should read when you have time it will mention both USA GFCI/GFI and RCD verisons 


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Residual-current_device


If you want more details on French side let me know I will reply asap.

Merci.
Marc


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## 76nemo (Aug 13, 2008)

Jlarson said:


> I always call the 30mA trips Class B GFCI's.


Alot of oversea's machinery I have ever put into place was labeled for Class B protection. You can ask many electricians about Class A, and Class B and watch some heads turn.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

76nemo said:


> Alot of oversea's machinery I have ever put into place was labeled for Class B protection. You can ask many electricians about Class A, and Class B and watch some heads turn.


 
Yeah it will turn the heads a bit but the Class B GFCI's is common one we have in France due it is a 30ma setting so that is common but we do have lower setting like in pool area and few other area we do use the 5 or 10ma setting for that purpose.

Oh yeah our main breakers will have 100ma RCD device at the prinpical location anything else it will have 30ma

Merci.
Marc


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

76nemo said:


> Alot of oversea's machinery I have ever put into place was labeled for Class B protection. You can ask many electricians about Class A, and Class B and watch some heads turn.


'Class B protection' or Class B 'GFCI'?

Please post a link to a UL listed class B *GFCI*.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> Please post a link to a UL listed class B *GFCI*.


Gawd bob it's called GFP here get with it... :laughing:


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

From the 2010 UL General directory (AKA The White Book)



> *GROUND-FAULT CIRCUIT INTERRUPTERS (KCXS)
> 
> GENERAL*​
> This category covers ground-fault circuit interrupters (GFCI) for use in accordance with ANSI/NFPA 70, ‘‘National Electrical Code’’ (NEC).
> ...


So all that posted .... the only place the NEC will allow a Class B GFCI to be used where a GFCI is required would be a pool built prior to 1965.

I sure would love to see a link to an manufacturer producing a class B GFCI.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> From the 2010 UL General directory (AKA The White Book)...


That was one of the most boring things I have ever read.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Jlarson said:


> That was one of the most boring things I have ever read.


And yet you admit reading it. :laughing:


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## 76nemo (Aug 13, 2008)

Jlarson said:


> That was one of the most boring things I have ever read.


 
But his point is valid. I meant "GFCI" not GFP.


Why do you have to b*tch at me first thing in the morning???:laughing:


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## danickstr (Mar 21, 2010)

yes, Virginia, there really is a Class B GFCI.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> And yet you admit reading it. :laughing:


What I was out of sleeping pills and alcohol. :laughing:



76nemo said:


> But his point is valid. I meant "GFCI" not GFP.
> Why do you have to b*tch at me first thing in the morning???:laughing:


IDK it was either you or take it out on the help later on in the day, I went with the former.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Bob.,

I know you mention Class B GFCI devices if you are refering to the breakers. Oui., they do still make them but you will have to order them ahead of the time due it is not a normal stock item at local branches but for the GFCI receptales the only GFCI receptales I know of in North Americian side is Class A I never see the Class B at all.

Now for European side we can go either way with Class A or Class B Recetpale or breaker set up.

Merci.
Marc


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