# 650 foot run for 2 pole lights



## Kevin (Feb 14, 2017)

Why the panels?

If you wanted to do it without the panels, I'd base my voltage drop off the known loads and the lengths.

Throwing panels in there will still work, but I'd go larger than #4 to the first one, I'd probably do #1 aluminum or even 1/0.

Oh, and use aluminum, but I'm sure you Know that


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## bantar1000 (Jul 7, 2016)

Kevin_Essiambre said:


> Why the panels?
> 
> If you wanted to do it without the panels, I'd base my voltage drop off the known loads and the lengths.


Would you run from the meter to the poles in 120? How would you go from #4, to a #12 for the light fixture?


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## Kevin (Feb 14, 2017)

bantar1000 said:


> Would you run from the meter to the poles in 120? How would you go from #4, to a #12 for the light fixture?


Polaris taps. 

You've confused me with 120. 120 is one leg of the split phase service. You could do 2 conductor cable, and service only the lights from this 120 volt run.

Or, if it's a multivoltage light (that will handle 240) use 2 conductor cable and feed it 240 volts.

Whats the question here? This is basic electrician knowledge...


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## Kevin (Feb 14, 2017)

bantar1000 said:


> Would you run from the meter to the poles in 120?


With wire, just like feeding a panel...

Or are you planning to come directly off the meter with a feeder for the lights?


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

If you want to keep it simple and just throw a big wire at it, I'd figure on a 20A GFCI circuit with 15A receptacles at each light. The Southwire voltage drop calculator tells me I'd need #2 aluminum or #4 copper to limit the voltage drop to 5%. So if someone plugs in a hair dryer and styles their hair at that second light, they'll get nearly full power and heat. 

The NEC doesn't hold you to voltage drop so if you want to design this for less than full load, there's nothing stopping you, and you could go smaller. Ten amps and 10% drop would get you down to #8 copper or #6 aluminum. 

If you take out the receptacles, you might find that the LED drivers will tolerate a really big voltage drop and you could just run #12 UF and be fine. 

You could stub up to an enclosure on the pole where you tap the big wire with normal size wire for the receptacle and fixture. You can use an outdoor connector, if all else fails there will be split bolts that will work.


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## VELOCI3 (Aug 15, 2019)

bantar1000 said:


> I have a customer with a 400amp service and a huge piece of land. He wants two LED pole lights put up. The first pole will be 385 feet away from the meter and the second will be 265 feet farther. How do I do this? I know voltage drop is an issue, but I don't quite understand it. Right now my plan is to run a three wire #4 from the meter to the first pole and put a 240v 30amp panel. Then run another three wire #4 to the second pole and put in a 240v 20a panel. I would separate neutrals and grounds at each panel and install a ground rod at each pole. Each panel would have a receptacle and Dusk to Dawn light. Does this work? OR do I have to plan for voltage drop from all the way back (650') at the meter for the second pole? Thanks! -John


How far is the utility XFMR from the meter and what size, type, free air/underground? You need to figure that into your calculation. 


What is the load for lighting or any other loads to be connected at the poles?

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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Here we'd drop hand holes next to each pole, stub up into the pole, run UF up to the fixture and tap on to our run conductors with utility pedestal connectors or street light connectors and be done with it. Two LED's aren't gonna draw **** so you don't have to go nuts, if they really want receps figure in a conservative amount for that, if there's gonna be receps involved I'll try and keep the VD around 5'ish%.

I hate when there's a ton of stuff hanging off light poles, and I hate when people try and stuff a bunch of stuff in the pole hand hole too.


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## MotoGP1199 (Aug 11, 2014)

I would run #4 copper stubbed up into the poles (assuming the poles have the large access cover at the base). Install GFCI receptacles on the pole and use polaris connectors or split bolts to go to #12 inside the pole were the covers are. Only thing mounted on the poles would be the box for the GFCI's.

If they don't have a large opening with a cover at the base I would install hand holes like Jlarson recommended.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

Are you wanting a 15A circuit at the end or are you just connecting lights? If just lights, what type? 

Because I'm looking at all the #4 suggestions and thinking wtf?


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## MotoGP1199 (Aug 11, 2014)

joe-nwt said:


> Are you wanting a 15A circuit at the end or are you just connecting lights? If just lights, what type?
> 
> Because I'm looking at all the #4 suggestions and thinking wtf?


OP did mention a receptacle at each panel(mounted on each pole). The #4 was to keep VD below 5% if they wanted proper power at the receptacle. Like mentioned before, if its only for the LED's they usually can handle a wider range of voltage without issue and #4 would not be needed. In CA I'm used to following Title 24 energy regulations and try and keep my VD low.


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## mofos be cray (Nov 14, 2016)

If it's just led pole lights why not just put in a solar panel at each light?


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

2 x 240v 100w led lights 12g direct burial and tell the home owner to buy a generator


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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

I'd probably use #6 AL for that. 650' isn't much for two LED heads that are only going to have a minimal draw.

We're doing a street lighting project currently. If I remember right, on our longest run, I have #2 AL running 2700' for the 240v LED decorative poles. It's not the olden days with MH/HPS pole lights and serious power draws....you can go quite a ways with 240v LED.

It is also set up with a handhole adjacent to the pole base where we'll utilize direct burial rated Polaris connectors to splice onto the smaller pole wiring.


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## bantar1000 (Jul 7, 2016)

Thank you all for the input! I don't know why it didn't think to run a 120 circuit. They're looking at a couple different led lights. They are all 120v and the biggest one is gonna be 300Watts. They want a receptacle to run some type of radio on the first pole. They're using wood poles. So, my plan now is to run a 120 circuit in 1/0 wire to the first pole. Put a big weather proof box at the first pole and use polaris taps to couple the 1/0 and attach to a #12 for a receptacle and a line for the LED. Then just go in 1/0 to the second pole and repeat the process with the box and no receptacle.


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

300 watts in a LED is a whole lotta light.
What stadium is this?


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## bantar1000 (Jul 7, 2016)

MikeFL said:


> 300 watts in a LED is a whole lotta light.
> What stadium is this?


It's a rich dudes HUGE piece of land. He's looking at these for the biggest. https://www.superiorlighting.com/content/vspfiles/spec_sheets/area-lights-specsheet.pdf


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

bantar1000 said:


> It's a rich dudes HUGE piece of land. He's looking at these for the biggest. https://www.superiorlighting.com/content/vspfiles/spec_sheets/area-lights-specsheet.pdf


That spec sheet says those lights will run on 120V - 277V and even if they were both at the 650' pole you could use #6 UF and at 6A and 120V you'd have less than 3% voltage drop. I assume those specs have some tolerance, but how much? If your utility power is actually say 117V at the panel and you keep it to 3% voltage drop that's still 113V. Will they run perfectly on 113V? What are you going to do if they don't? 

Now with a 240V circuit, you'd have less than 3A at less than 5% voltage drop with #14 UF and the lights would be perfectly fine. You have all kinds of margin for error there. If the lights don't function, it's sure not your fault.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

So what would you do if you wanted to supply the big lights with 240V and the receptacles with 120V? 

I like the idea of using #6 UF here because it's reasonably easy to get and work with and would give decent power and voltage drop at the receptacles. Or maybe just go all the way and use the 1/0 Al. The real money is in digging the ditch not the wire you bury in there. Big project for a customer with a big budget, they will probably agree. 

So maybe a three-wire 240/120V circuit would be a good way to go, with the lights tapped at 240V, the receptacle at the first pole tapped off L1-N and the receptacle at the second pole tapped off L2-N? 

And, maybe a small 3R main lug panel as @bantar1000 suggested in the first place would be as good a way as any to go? You don't really need it if it's fed from a 15A or 20A GFCI breaker, but maybe it would be worth it because it makes the splices and taps simple and you have switches and resets at the poles. By the time you pay for polaris taps and an enclosure, maybe the panel is the most practical solution.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

bantar1000 said:


> It's a rich dudes HUGE piece of land. He's looking at these for the biggest. https://www.superiorlighting.com/content/vspfiles/spec_sheets/area-lights-specsheet.pdf


I lit up an entire car dealership parking lot with 3x 150W LED floods. The pole won't be tall enough to utilize the light from a 300W fixture. Or, it will blind anyone coming down the driveway.

But hey, don't argue with a rich customer.


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## Kevin (Feb 14, 2017)

joe-nwt said:


> I lit up an entire car dealership parking lot with 3x 150W LED floods. The pole won't be tall enough to utilize the light from a 300W fixture. Or, it will blind anyone coming down the driveway.
> 
> But hey, don't argue with a rich customer.


The real question here is how tall is the pole.

Rich customer? Heck, it could be a 100' tall pole for all we know...


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## bantar1000 (Jul 7, 2016)

splatz said:


> And, maybe a small 3R main lug panel as @bantar1000 suggested in the first place would be as good a way as any to go? You don't really need it if it's fed from a 15A or 20A GFCI breaker, but maybe it would be worth it because it makes the splices and taps simple and you have switches and resets at the poles. By the time you pay for polaris taps and an enclosure, maybe the panel is the most practical solution.


If I Do go with 240V and put in panels. I don't understand where voltage drop takes place. The southwire VD calculator says, at 385 feet I can run my first 240V panel on #4. When I'm calculating the SECOND panel, do I calculate the VD from the new breaker and the remaining 265 feet, which the southwire VD calculator still says #4. OR does the second panel have to be calculated at 650 from the meter, even though there is a breaker for the second panel 265 feet away? 

If I can do that, then mobile home feeder 2-2-2-4 is cheap ($1.06) and easily accessible!


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## bantar1000 (Jul 7, 2016)

Kevin_Essiambre said:


> Rich customer? Heck, it could be a 100' tall pole for all we know...


I don't know the answer to that yet. I don't think they do either. Fortunately, I don't have to supply them, or the trenching. I'm supposed to pull up and have a trench to put the wire in.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

splatz said:


> And, maybe a small 3R main lug panel as @bantar1000 suggested in the first place would be as good a way as any to go? You don't really need it if it's fed from a 15A or 20A GFCI breaker, but maybe it would be worth it because it makes the splices and taps simple and you have switches and resets at the poles. By the time you pay for polaris taps and an enclosure, maybe the panel is the most practical solution.


I was on hold for over two hours waiting for a consultation with Professor Hackworth, chairman of the Department of Code Compliance and Professional Wrestling at New Jersey Academy of Applied Science. On behalf of the Academy Professor Hackworth extends his warmest regards to the membership and management here. 

Noe that 250.32 requires a grounding electrode when you extend a _branch circuit or feeder to a building or structure. _

A light pole is a structure, there is an exception for light poles without disconnects but with a panel that of course would not apply, the breakers would be disconnects.

If you use a panel, the breaker in the house is not the* last overprotection device *in the circuit so the supply to the pole is a *feeder*, so the 250.32 exception for a *single *_*branch circuit *_would not apply. So you'd need a grounding electrode.

Now since you're trenching a grounding electrode is no big deal but at that point it's way more trouble and expense than an enclosure for taps.

As usual the conversation with Professor Hackworth was civilized, dignified, cordial and cerebral. Except he thinks that Andre the Giant is overrated and not even a contender for Greatest of All Time, which only someone with their brains in their ass would say.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

bantar1000 said:


> If I Do go with 240V and put in panels. I don't understand where voltage drop takes place. The southwire VD calculator says, at 385 feet I can run my first 240V panel on #4. When I'm calculating the SECOND panel, do I calculate the VD from the new breaker and the remaining 265 feet, which the southwire VD calculator still says #4. OR does the second panel have to be calculated at 650 from the meter, even though there is a breaker for the second panel 265 feet away?
> 
> If I can do that, then mobile home feeder 2-2-2-4 is cheap ($1.06) and easily accessible!


Voltage drop occurs in the wire due to the resistance of the wire. The wire feeding pole 1 is in SERIES with the wire feeding pole 2. That makes the voltage drop calculation kind of difficult. Because voltage drop is dependent on load, and the load to both panel 1 and panel 2 is on the wires feeding panel 1, the voltage drop to panel 1 will be calculated with BOTH loads. 

The voltage drop at panel 2 is cumulative - you have to start with the already reduced voltage present at panel 1, and do the calculation there. 

And plus the CURRENT at panel 2 will depend on the voltage drop at panel 1, so the calculation is not striaghtforward. 

At these distances, I'd rather not attempt the mathematics to calculate it super tight so I can maybe (maybe) run a slightly smaller wire from pole 1 to pole 2. Just not worth it. I'd just do the calculation as if all of the load is at 650' which will cover you for sure.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

...


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

@bantar1000 
You say rich customer, don't try to save them money use what you need to do the job right. 
As @splatz said if it don't work at 650' your screwed for trying to save them money, wire is cheap. I'd also propose a second conduit for a camera or other gadget, since the ditch is open. 
You lose money for saving them don't make business sense.


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## VELOCI3 (Aug 15, 2019)

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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

splatz said:


> I was on hold for over two hours waiting for a consultation with Professor Hackworth, chairman of the Department of Code Compliance and Professional Wrestling at New Jersey Academy of Applied Science. On behalf of the Academy Professor Hackworth extends his warmest regards to the membership and management here.


Next time you talk to him, tell him I think of him everytime I wafflestomp in the shower


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)




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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

joe-nwt said:


> View attachment 152049


Technically if its just the lights (300w each) its 5 amps at 385' then 2.5 amps at 265'

so using 10g at 385'
Voltage drop: *3.85*
Voltage drop percentage: *3.20%*
Voltage at the end: *116.15* 

then 265'

(starting voltage 116)
Voltage drop: *1.32*
Voltage drop percentage: *1.14%*
Voltage at the end: *114.68* 

total vd 120-114.5 = about 5.5v 

5% drop on 120 is 6v so 10g would do if it was just for the lights..


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## MotoGP1199 (Aug 11, 2014)

I think most people(and my self) that recommended 4ga was for the receptacles to work properly not the lights.


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

I would have no problem using hand holes and 2-2-2-4 aluminum as its cheap and gives lots of options. I would also not have a problem using a smaller gauge to make life easier for the first 20' which gives you lots of options to the first hand hole. (really depends on panel fill). 20amp dp breaker means you don't need breakers in the field the lug excepts a 8g wire so 20' feet of 8 copper would make life easier.

As long as you add the total load per section and change the voltage in the calculator as you calculate the sections it should be fine.


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## AsGreenAsGrass (Nov 26, 2020)

Can't go past 3% VD in canada for a circuit is it different for NEC?


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

AsGreenAsGrass said:


> Can't go past 3% VD in canada for a circuit is it different for NEC?


NEC _recommends_ but doesn't *require* 5%.


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## wcord (Jan 23, 2011)

AsGreenAsGrass said:


> Can't go past 3% VD in canada for a circuit is it different for NEC?


8-102
3% for service, 5% for branch circuits


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## mofos be cray (Nov 14, 2016)

wcord said:


> 8-102
> 3% for service, 5% for branch circuits


I think it 5% overall. 2% on the service 3% on the branch circuits. But if you only have 1% on the service I don't think you get 4% to play with.


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## AsGreenAsGrass (Nov 26, 2020)

mofos be cray said:


> I think it 5% overall. 2% on the service 3% on the branch circuits. But if you only have 1% on the service I don't think you get 4% to play with.


i was under the impression it was up to 3% and up to 2% so you couldn't go either way


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## mofos be cray (Nov 14, 2016)

AsGreenAsGrass said:


> i was under the impression it was up to 3% and up to 2% so you couldn't go either way


I don't know what you mean go either way. This is Canada in 2020, the only thing better than switch hitting is transitioning so you can go either way.😂


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

mofos be cray said:


> I think it 5% overall. 2% on the service 3% on the branch circuits. But if you only have 1% on the service I don't think you get 4% to play with.


I think you are correct in your thinking, but since I'm in the US, I'll use that 4% and if I'm a little over, depending on the load I might just let it slide a little higher.


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## VELOCI3 (Aug 15, 2019)

Look at your voltage at the start of the run. Measure with a reliable digital meter. Use that voltage for your calculation. Since you are using LED drivers check what the minimum voltage tolerance is for the fixtures. See what percentage (5 or 3) maintains enough for the fixtures. 

Also include any other loads on this run when calculating. 


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

It's 3% on the feeder or branch circuit .... 5% overall (supply to device)


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