# Removing AFCI protection



## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

I probably wouldn't remove it just because of the legal liabilities but this brings me to the question of why you folks south of the border seem to have so many issues with AFCI's. 

We have been using them up here on bedroom receptacle circuits for at least 6 years now (maybe more like 9yrs).....granted that means 2 or sometimes 3 AFCI breakers in a home.........and I have had precisely one service call for an AFCI that was tripping without an overload condition.


Are our AFCI breakers designed differently?


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

MTW said:


> Are you willing to take on the liability of removing AFCI protection? Let's say the AFCI is tripping due to normal arcing in a vacuum cleaner or similar device, and the customer is unsatisfied and you're sick of explaining and call backs. Do you deal with it, or remove the AFCI?


Deal with it, it ain't that bad.


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## 120/208 (Nov 18, 2012)

Rollie73 said:


> I probably wouldn't remove it just because of the legal liabilities but this brings me to the question of why you folks south of the border seem to have so many issues with AFCI's.
> 
> We have been using them up here on bedroom receptacle circuits for at least 6 years now (maybe more like 9yrs).....granted that means 2 or sometimes 3 AFCI breakers in a home.........and I have had precisely one service call for an AFCI that was tripping without an overload condition.
> 
> ...


Never really had any issues with AFCI circuit breakers. I think it makes for good whining sessions on this electrical forum.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

I have had a few issues with AFCI breakers where nothing was wrong, just a faulty breaker.

I have also had a few issues with AFCI breakers that exposed incorrect wiring problems that the normal CB's had never detected. Most of the time we run into issues nowadays there is a wiring/connection issue, not the CB.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

MTW said:


> Are you willing to take on the liability of removing AFCI protection? Let's say the AFCI is tripping due to normal arcing in a vacuum cleaner or similar device, and the customer is unsatisfied and you're sick of explaining and call backs. Do you deal with it, or remove the AFCI?


 Where are you allowed NOT to have AFCI circuits in the USA (besides the obvious)?


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Rollie73 said:


> I probably wouldn't remove it just because of the legal liabilities but this brings me to the question of why you folks south of the border seem to have so many issues with AFCI's.
> 
> We have been using them up here on bedroom receptacle circuits for at least 6 years now (maybe more like 9yrs).....granted that means 2 or sometimes 3 AFCI breakers in a home.........and I have had precisely one service call for an AFCI that was tripping without an overload condition.
> 
> ...


 I had one instance where the vacuum cleaner was the culprit. This was a very expensive half house renovation which involved removal of a custom made king size bed just to access one receptacle during troubleshooting. It was not a good day. That was three years ago and no other loads have caused nuisance tripping.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

99cents said:


> Where are you allowed NOT to have AFCI circuits in the USA (besides the obvious)?


We are on the '14 NEC now, dictating about 80% of a normal dwelling, the '17 is rumored to include all 120V, possibly some 240V circuitry

~CS~


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

MTW said:


> Are you willing to take on the liability of removing AFCI protection? Let's say the AFCI is tripping due to normal arcing in a vacuum cleaner or similar device, and the customer is unsatisfied and you're sick of explaining and call backs. Do you deal with it, or remove the AFCI?


Allow me to work this the other way 'round MTW

We installed all afci breakers in a reno, because the wingnut project manager _(2nd home owner from out of state)_ insisted on them


His old furnace tripped one, the place froze up , the PM and his insurance company ran amock like stuck pigs....

Many 000's of damage occured, the usual '_pin the tail on the libel donkey_' following suit.

When, my Q would be, can we pin that tail on Eaton, Siemens, SqD, etc ?

~CS~


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

99cents said:


> I had one instance where the vacuum cleaner was the culprit. This was a very expensive half house renovation which involved removal of a custom made king size bed just to access one receptacle during troubleshooting. It was not a good day. That was three years ago and no other loads have caused nuisance tripping.


The only time I went to a call for a bad AFCI it wasn't even the breaker. It turned out to be a mini fridge that a tenant (boarding house) had plugged into the circuit.
The home owner had the tenant remove the fridge and we haven't had it trip once since then. 
Ironically, the tenant with the culprit fridge was the one doing the complaining about the circuit tripping because his favorite beverage wouldn't stay cold in the mini-fridge:laughing:


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

I might have a shread of sympathy for those canadian brews Rollie....:laughing:~CS~:whistling2:


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## 120/208 (Nov 18, 2012)

chicken steve said:


> His old furnace tripped one, the place froze up.
> 
> ~CS~



Why AFCI protection on a furnace circuit?


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

chicken steve said:


> We are on the '14 NEC now, dictating about 80% of a normal dwelling, the '17 is rumored to include all 120V, possibly some 240V circuitry
> 
> ~CS~


From the 2017 first draft. red = text to be deleted


> All 120-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere branch circuits supplying outlets or devices installed in  dwelling unit kitchens, family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms, parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sunrooms, recreation rooms, closets, hallways, laundry areas, or similar rooms or areas dwelling units shall be protected by any of the means described in 210.12(A)(1) through (6):


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

120/208 said:


> Why AFCI protection on a furnace circuit?


Customer directive 120, what would you tell him?

~CS~


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

120/208 said:


> Never really had any issues with AFCI circuit breakers. I think it makes for good whining sessions on this electrical forum.



Hi Chris1971


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## 120/208 (Nov 18, 2012)

chicken steve said:


> Customer directive 120, what would you tell him?
> 
> ~CS~


Simply tell them it's not required. If they wanted it installed make sure it's documented. Customers request.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

MTW said:


> Are you willing to take on the liability of removing AFCI protection? Let's say the AFCI is tripping due to normal arcing in a vacuum cleaner or similar device, and the customer is unsatisfied and you're sick of explaining and call backs. Do you deal with it, or remove the AFCI?


No...


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## 120/208 (Nov 18, 2012)

RIVETER said:


> No...


Not worth the liability.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

120/208 said:


> Why AFCI protection on a furnace circuit?



Good question Chris.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

120/208 said:


> Simply tell them it's not required. If they wanted it installed make sure it's documented. Customers request.


Exactly what happened.

So now , as Don has shown us (thx):thumbsup: , the '17 may require it

Who foots the bill when disaster occurs ?

Further (because some of you can think further) when they make their HC debut as Meadow has shown us (thx):thumbsup:

Who foots the bill when they trip hospital equipment ?




~CS~


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

If it trips hospital equipment, sadly it might bring some help to this. Some serious bad press and some lawsuits on a large scale... I am tired of hearing the whining about cost and explaining potential problems.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> From the 2017 first draft. red = text to be deleted


 So do they make AFCI/GFCI protection? That sounds like nothing but trouble.


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## pete87 (Oct 22, 2012)

99cents said:


> So do they make AFCI/GFCI protection? That sounds like nothing but trouble.





AFCI's are riding on the back of the successful GFCI .




Pete


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## Wpgshocker (Jan 25, 2013)

nrp3 said:


> I am tired of hearing the whining about cost and explaining potential problems.



I love that word, "potential". 
There is also the potential problem of a plane crashing into their house, did you explain that as well? 

You are a professional, your opinion doesn't matter.
Install it, smile, collect payment and move on. IF there is an issue, service it with a smile, collect payment and move on. 

Complaining to the customer about something that may never cause them a problem makes you look unprofessional and whiny. Then explaining how you are forced to install them but you know better than the governing bodies, makes you sound like a tinfoil hat, doomsday prepper!





Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## pete87 (Oct 22, 2012)

Wpgshocker said:


> I love that word, "potential".
> There is also the potential problem of a plane crashing into their house, did you explain that as well?
> 
> You are a professional, your opinion doesn't matter.
> ...




Install an AFCI ?

Let me see , a panel and subpanel ... 64 breakers x $$ = $$$$ .



Pete


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

MTW said:


> Are you willing to take on the liability of removing AFCI protection?


I'm still not convinced they do as claimed but they are a required component unless they have been "written out" through the local adoption process.

I may not be a believer but I still can't approve a job that doesn't have them where required. So, if I had the choice I guess I wouldn't want that liability.

Pete


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

99cents said:


> So do they make AFCI/GFCI protection? That sounds like nothing but trouble.


At least two manufacturers have "dual purpose" breakers. These provide both AFCI and GFCI protection.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

pete87 said:


> Install an AFCI ?
> 
> Let me see , a panel and subpanel ... 64 breakers x $$ = $$$$ .
> 
> ...


I was talking with a guy about costs the other day...material alone for a new 200 amp dwelling service is running about $2500 here. That includes the newly required lever bypass meter can, the service panel and breakers, and the conduit and wire for the service installation. It does not include any labor.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> I was talking with a guy about costs the other day...material alone for a new 200 amp dwelling service is running about $2500 here. That includes the newly required lever bypass meter can, the service panel and breakers, and the conduit and wire for the service installation. It does not include any labor.


What poco do you have the requires lever bypass? That's been a requirement in Northeast Utilities territory (MA/CT/NH) for over a decade now. The residential meters they accept are 3-5 times more expensive than the non-bypass ones.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

chicken steve said:


> Allow me to work this the other way 'round MTW
> 
> We installed all afci breakers in a reno, because the wingnut project manager _(2nd home owner from out of state)_ insisted on them
> 
> ...


There is no way I would accept the liability for an AFCI breaker on a furnace, alarm system or any kind of home medical equipment.


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## 120/208 (Nov 18, 2012)

Pete m. said:


> I'm still not convinced they do as claimed but they are a required component unless they have been "written out" through the local adoption process.
> 
> I may not be a believer but I still can't approve a job that doesn't have them where required. So, if I had the choice I guess I wouldn't want that liability.
> 
> Pete


Must be a tough situation to be in, your required to make sure the work complies to current requirements yet you don't believe in AFCI protection. Do you keep your concerns quiet or do you say what you think about AFCI to the contractors that you do the inspections?


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

120/208 said:


> Must be a tough situation to be in, your required to make sure the work complies to current requirements yet you don't believe in AFCI protection. Do you keep your concerns quiet or do you say what you think about AFCI to the contractors that you do the inspections?


Good question, Chris1971. :whistling2:


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

I let everyone know , the AFCI is a device lobbied into code that has only proven itself to be a nuisance. I'm not endorsing it and only installing it when the powers that be have my back up against a wall. My views are for the price of $40 a breaker, I the manufacturers should be liable when they fail to protect from fire..


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

I took out about a dozen AFCIs when I bought my house. I sleep like a baby.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

That's the first time I have heard that an electrician was PROUD to have downgraded his own house.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> At least two manufacturers have "dual purpose" breakers. These provide both AFCI and GFCI protection.


All of the "Big 4" make them now. However, GE simply rebranded a Siemens one like they did when AFCI's first came out. History is repeating itself.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

RIVETER said:


> That's the first time I have heard that an electrician was PROUD to have downgraded his own house.


Its not a down grade, its an upgrade. An AFCI is a total fraudulent gimmick that seeks to solve a problem that doesn't even exist.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

meadow said:


> Its not a down grade, its an upgrade. An AFCI is a total fraudulent gimmick that seeks to solve a problem that doesn't even exist.


The decision to go against the code is not your choice. It is a downgrade. But, I still love ya man...just wouldn't hire ya.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

RIVETER said:


> The decision to go against the code is not your choice. It is a downgrade. But, I still love ya man...just wouldn't hire ya.



Its everyones' choice. No one should be forced to follow wrong doing.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

meadow said:


> Its everyones' choice. No one should be forced to follow wrong doing.


Why don't you create a poll here and see how all others feel .......NOT about loving the code...but just following it because it is the correct thing to do.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

RIVETER said:


> Why don't you create a poll here and see how all others feel .......NOT about loving the code...but just following it because it is the correct thing to do.



Whats correct about a device that doesn't even have evidence to back it up?


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## 120/208 (Nov 18, 2012)

RIVETER said:


> Why don't you create a poll here and see how all others feel .......NOT about loving the code...but just following it because it is the correct thing to do.


We need more Mike Holmes in this world. "Make it right".


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

meadow said:


> Whats correct about a device that doesn't even have evidence to back it up?


Electrodes for the purpose of saving electrical systems during a lightning strike don't always work. Why don't you leave it out of your next job and run it by the inspector.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

120/208 said:


> We need more Mike Holmes in this world. "Make it right".


And we need less liars like Chris1971 in the world too.


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## 120/208 (Nov 18, 2012)

:laughing:


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

120/208 said:


> :laughing:


Thanks for proving that you're Chris, not that I had any doubt.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

120/208 said:


> We need more Mike Holmes in this world. "Make it right".


I believe he and his crew give their work and possibly many houses to charity. I like him.


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## 120/208 (Nov 18, 2012)

:laughing:


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## 120/208 (Nov 18, 2012)

RIVETER said:


> I believe he and his crew give their work and possibly many houses to charity. I like him.


He has helped expose shotty workmanship and for doing that I think is good. I do think he goes overboard sometimes.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

99cents said:


> This was a very expensive half house renovation


What do you consider expensive? My kitchen and foyer was $70,000.00. Is that high?


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## 120/208 (Nov 18, 2012)

MTW said:


> Are you willing to take on the liability of removing AFCI protection? Let's say the AFCI is tripping due to normal arcing in a vacuum cleaner or similar device, and the customer is unsatisfied and you're sick of explaining and call backs. Do you deal with it, or remove the AFCI?



Would you remove AFCI protection? You like to ask these questions but never give us an answer to what you would do?


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

120/208 said:


> He has helped expose shotty workmanship and for doing that I think is good. I do think he goes overboard sometimes.


How so?


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

120/208 said:


> Would you remove AFCI protection? You like to ask these questions but never give us an answer to what you would do?


I have no issue with removing it if enough nuisance tripping occurred from every day usage of electronics and appliances.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

MTW said:


> I have no issue with removing it if enough nuisance tripping occurred from every day usage of electronics and appliances.


If you had a swimming pool that three days in a row the GFCI did not work and on each day a kid was killed because of it would you remove the GFCI because the damn thing "Just will not work correctly"??? Just asking.


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## 120/208 (Nov 18, 2012)

meadow said:


> I took out about a dozen AFCIs when I bought my house. I sleep like a baby.


Were you having issues with them nuisance tripping?


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

120/208 said:


> Were you having issues with them nuisance tripping?



Do I look like an R&D lab? :laughing:


I ran an insulation resistance test and it checked out within spec. Thats all I needed to know.


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## 120/208 (Nov 18, 2012)

meadow said:


> Do I look like an R&D lab? :laughing:
> 
> 
> I ran an insulation resistance test and it checked out within spec. Thats all I needed to know.


Hey, your home could be a break through in high tech AFCI protection analysis. :laughing:


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

meadow said:


> Do I look like an R&D lab? :laughing:


No, but I like that kind of music.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

120/208 said:


> Hey, your home could be a break through in high tech AFCI protection analysis. :laughing:



Noooo  :laughing:


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

120/208 said:


> Must be a tough situation to be in, your required to make sure the work complies to current requirements yet you don't believe in AFCI protection. Do you keep your concerns quiet or do you say what you think about AFCI to the contractors that you do the inspections?


I typically don't say much at all about what I think is right or wrong with code requirements. There are quite a few requirements that I don't think were substantiated enough and yet accepted by the CMP's (it is really enlightening to look at the proposals made and the substantiation that got them accepted).

My beliefs, fortunately, play a very little role in inspections.

Pete


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

RIVETER said:


> What do you consider expensive? My kitchen and foyer was $70,000.00. Is that high?


I dunno, this one was around $300k. Three levels including moving the entire kitchen.

When you get into residential renovations of that size, blending old with new, the last thing you need is arc fault nonsense.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

RIVETER said:


> I believe he and his crew give their work and possibly many houses to charity. I like him.


His actual working scheme is extremely straight forward: he uses his endless contacts in the trades -- especially inspectors, (and the prosecutor's office) -- to spot horrific disasters.

He rightly understands that a total freaking disaster makes for great television.

No-one is willing to sit though a trivial DIY project. 

Whereas there's a lot of drama in a family tragedy -- and boy does Mike Holmes find them.

He's also politically correct. It's OBVIOUS from many of his rescues that he's coming in behind an immigrant contractor -- licensed or not -- that hasn't a CLUE as to how a home has to be built for the Canadian client.

Our California GCs would be lost up there, too. For us, it's all about earthquakes. For Ontario, it's all about the Winters -- and the consequences of condensation.

Holmes visited Los Angeles for one project. He just choked on the 'absurd' seismic bracing that is required out here. His project went way over budget as a consequence. 

[ LA Code spec'd NAILS ( Mike planned on screws ) whereas the manufactured lumber he was using was so dense that it was -- and is -- impossible to use a nail gun. All nails simply bend back, while doing a bang-up job jambing the nail gun. IIRC, he ended up pre-drilling -- very tedious -- for every single nail -- and the Code requires them in copious amounts. ]


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

99cents said:


> I dunno, this one was around $300k. Three levels including moving the entire kitchen.
> 
> When you get into residential renovations of that size, blending old with new, the last thing you need is arc fault nonsense.



Arc faults dont even like new equipment either:laughing::



http://www.diychatroom.com/f18/anyo...afci-gfci-requirement-samsung-fridges-295066/


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Just finished a kitchen and am starting another in a day or so. Hopefully this doesn't rear its ugly head. CH CH on the one just finished, Siemens on the next.


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## 120/208 (Nov 18, 2012)

nrp3 said:


> Just finished a kitchen and am starting another in a day or so. Hopefully this doesn't rear its ugly head. CH CH on the one just finished, Siemens on the next.


What issues have you had with CH CH?


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Earlier BR AFCI with vacuums. First time with the ch AFCI/GFCI. Assuming softwares the same CH and BR.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

An AFCI tripping due to normal usage of every day appliances is an unacceptable situation. We should not condition ourselves to simply accept the loss of time and money and aggravation to customers.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

MTW said:


> An AFCI tripping due to normal usage of every day appliances is an unacceptable situation. We should not condition ourselves to simply accept the loss of time and money and aggravation to customers.


Just refuse to put them in and let the inspector know why. I'm sure he'll understand.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

RIVETER said:


> Just refuse to put them in and let the inspector know why. I'm sure he'll understand.



If every electrician in the country refuses I doubt inspectors could change anything. You can compel one person, but you cant compel numbers.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

*but they work for me.........*



MTW said:


> An AFCI tripping due to normal usage of every day appliances is an unacceptable situation. We should not condition ourselves to simply accept the loss of time and money and aggravation to customers.


The lady simply slammed the door on the fridge & demanded it *OUT*, after returning to her 2nd skibunny home to find it stinking like a month old road kill

So i said sure, trucked it off, bleached & hosed it out, and am now the proud owner of a high end fridge _(makes cubes for my ****tails too!)_:thumbup:

:laughing:*THANK YOU EATON!*:laughing:

~CS~


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

*I coulda been a contender....*



telsa said:


> He rightly understands that a total freaking disaster makes for great television.
> 
> No-one is willing to sit though a trivial DIY project.
> 
> Whereas there's a lot of drama in a family tragedy -- and boy does Mike Holmes find them.


Man, did i ever miss my true calling......:whistling2:~CS~:laughing:


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

*turd herders*



meadow said:


> If every electrician in the country refuses I doubt inspectors could change anything. You can compel one person, but you cant compel numbers.


If every electrician in this country could only dislodge their cranium from the manufacturers large intestines and their CMP sphincter ........~CS~:whistling2:


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> If every electrician in this country could only dislodge their cranium from the manufacturers large intestines and their CMP sphincter ........~CS~:whistling2:



Indoctrination based education is something. :no:


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## 120/208 (Nov 18, 2012)

chicken steve said:


> If every electrician in this country could only dislodge their cranium from the manufacturers large intestines and their CMP sphincter ........~CS~:whistling2:


Yeah, try what you suggest and you won't be in business much longer. Unless you become a cash and carry business with no permits.:laughing:


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Moi? Je porte mon halo fonctionne monsieur 120/208

~C







S~


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## billn (Aug 31, 2011)

I think the only possible route would be for electricians to intensively lobby their state/local code authorities to remove the AFCI requirements during their local modifications of the NEC. If that happened in enough states, then it might be enough for the AFCI requirement to be removed in the NEC itself.


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