# 250.52 and 53



## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

250.52 Grounding Electrodes. 
(A) Electrodes Permitted for Grounding. 
(1) Metal Underground Water Pipe. A metal under- 
ground water pipe in direct contact with the earth for 3.0 m 
(10 ft) or more (including any metal well casing effectively 
bonded to the pipe) and electrically continuous (or made 
electrically continuous by bonding around insulating joints 
or insulating pipe) to the points of connection of the 
grounding electrode conductor and the bonding conductors. 
Interior metal water piping located more than 1.52 m (5 ft) 
from the point of entrance to the building shall not be used 
as a part of the grounding electrode system or as a conduc- 
tor to interconnect electrodes that are part of the grounding 
electrode system. 

(D) Metal Underground Water Pipe. Where used as a 
grounding electrode, metal underground water pipe shall 
meet the requirements of 250.53(D)(1) and (D)(2). 
(1) Continuity. Continuity of the grounding path or the 
bonding connection to interior piping shall not rely on wa- 
ter meters or ﬁltering devices and similar equipment. 



Inspector failed a job I did because he said I did not bond to the supply side of the water meter first before jumping to the other side. Does that seem like a violation to you? It doesn't to me but I digress...

This guy also noted that my #6 copper from ground #1 to ground rod #2 needs to be buried in the ground, not securely attached to the foundation of a dwelling. 

This guy nuts or is it just me?


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## cmec (Feb 11, 2008)

You would get gigged for both things where I live.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

cmec said:


> You would get gigged for both things where I live.


 If I'm understanding him correctly the samething would happen here also.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

We have to bond on both sides when there is a "U" shaped bracket on the water line

There are rubber bushings where the meter connects from supply side to house side

That what he is talking about?

I just read that again and it seems he wants the water pipe to still be bonded if the water meter is disconnected?? THAT is nutz


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## sparks134 (Jan 30, 2009)

perfectly normal, where I come from!!!


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## Mr. Sparkle (Jan 27, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> Inspector failed a job I did because he said I did not bond to the supply side of the water meter first before jumping to the other side. Does that seem like a violation to you? It doesn't to me but I digress...
> 
> This guy also noted that my #6 copper from ground #1 to ground rod #2 needs to be buried in the ground, not securely attached to the foundation of a dwelling.
> 
> This guy nuts or is it just me?


I've been called on both in the past, and had an inspector advise me to strip the jacket off the #6 between the rods before burying it......:blink:, just saying.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

Black4Truck said:


> I just read that again and it seems he wants the water pipe to still be bonded if the water meter is disconnected?? THAT is nutz


Why?


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Celtic said:


> Why?


Because the #6 is still connected to the clamp even if the water meter is missing


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

Black4Truck said:


> Because the #6 is still connected to the clamp even if the water meter is missing



250.53(D)(1) requires it.

Why is that the service uses both a #6 & a #4?
Does it matter if the #6 goes to the rod or the meter?
Why or why not?


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## sparks134 (Jan 30, 2009)

200 A service is #4 GEC to water pipe, #6 to ground rod.
100 A service is #8 GEC to water pipe , #8 to ground rod.:thumbsup:


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

The inspectors thoughts were that the H20 bond should land on the first 5' feet first in case they ever want to change out the meter the underground portion still has a bond with the grounded service conductor.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

Sparks....the service in question is a 200A


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## sparks134 (Jan 30, 2009)

yep! thats exactly why!:thumbsup:


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## sparks134 (Jan 30, 2009)

#6 goes to rod!!!


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

The part about having to put the bonding jumper in the ground and not attached to the whatever it got attached to is pure crap. (not your crap, the inspectors crap). Figgin current doesn't care in the least what medium it attaches to on its way to the second and rather ******** but usually required by code rod. I wish inspectors would learn to read and not try to impress us with creativity. As far as jumping a meter with a bond, we all know the code requires that, so what is the problem as I understand your post about it? Does he not want a jumper around the meter? By the way I am sure most regulars are tired of my preaching about it, but on the exterior of the building if you land the gec on the water pipe there, the 5 foot part of the sentence doesn't apply. I figure if I keep mentioning that fact sooner or later it will start sticking in the minds of the readers and then maybe it might spread far and wide and finally get to the inspection departments as it should...


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

macmikeman said:


> The part about having to put the bonding jumper in the ground and not attached to the whatever it got attached to is pure crap. (not your crap, the inspectors crap). Figgin current doesn't care in the least what medium it attaches to on its way to the second and rather ******** but usually required by code rod. I wish inspectors would learn to read and not try to impress us with creativity. As far as jumping a meter with a bond, we all know the code requires that, so what is the problem as I understand your post about it? Does he not want a jumper around the meter? By the way I am sure most regulars are tired of my preaching about it, but on the exterior of the building if you land the gec on the water pipe there, the 5 foot part of the sentence doesn't apply. I figure if I keep mentioning that fact sooner or later it will start sticking in the minds of the readers and then maybe it might spread far and wide and finally get to the inspection departments as it should...


The inspector of course wants both sides of the meter jumped, but wants the supply side bonded first so if the "load side" is ever repair or replaced the connection to the first 5' is there when the "load side" is likely disconnected. Electrically speaking, either way meets the requirement and the way the code is currently worded. 

I'll have pictures next week.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Magnettica said:


> The inspector of course wants both sides of the meter jumped, but wants the supply side bonded first so if the "load side" is ever repair or replaced the connection to the first 5' is there when the "load side" is likely disconnected. Electrically speaking, either way meets the requirement and the way the code is currently worded.
> 
> I'll have pictures next week.



Got it, now I understand. What if. What if, what if, what if. I'm glad I'm not an inspector myself. I could probably not resist the complusion to become a BONE HEAD if I was...:whistling2:


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

What town was that in.......


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

macmikeman said:


> What if. What if, what if, what if.


Want to buy a "Special Edition" of the NEC?

We have 2 for sale:




















:laughing:


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

captkirk said:


> what town was that in.......



Union, the one in Union County next to Roselle Park and Springfield. Not to be confused with Union out in west Jersey.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Celtic said:


> Want to buy a "Special Edition" of the NEC?
> 
> We have 2 for sale:
> 
> ...



Nice :thumbup:


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

Magnettica said:


> Union, the one in Union County next to Roselle Park and Springfield. Not to be confused with Union out in west Jersey.



..or with "Junyon Chitty, mang"


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

No espanol. I hate working in cities. If there isn't a driveway to park in I'm not interested.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> No espanol. I hate working in cities. If there isn't a driveway to park in I'm not interested.


 
:laughing:


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

That's when you know you're getting the hang of this thing, when you start picking and choosing jobs. :thumbup:


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

Magnettica said:


> No espanol. I hate working in cities. If there isn't a driveway to park in I'm not interested.


You must have loved Hoboken :laughing:


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

Magnettica said:


> I'll have pictures next week.


 :thumbup::clap:


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Sorry I was there today and forgot.

One of the things EI failed me for was the ground rod wire "flapping in the breeze" across a window well. Upon further review, it was a cable television wire "flapping in the breeze" not a #6 copper. Can't make this **** up folks.


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## sparks134 (Jan 30, 2009)

really good EI!!!


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> Sorry I was there today and forgot.
> 
> One of the things EI failed me for was the ground rod wire "flapping in the breeze" across a window well. Upon further review, it was a cable television wire "flapping in the breeze" not a #6 copper. Can't make this **** up folks.


 
Dam.. what a PP.. the guys I deal with would just call me instead of not passing the job

Sucks it's not even yours :no:


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*Grounding*

I will be the devil's advocate here and ask you how you would ground an electrical system. Let's say it requires a#6 copper...panel in basement, and we are looking for mechanical protection of the equipment grounding conductor to keep a lawn mower from hitting it if there is no other choice as to where the ROD is placed.

RIVETER


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## sparks134 (Jan 30, 2009)

put the ground rod in the basement next to the water pipe! easy enough!:thumbsup:


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

RIVETER said:


> I will be the devil's advocate here and ask you how you would ground an electrical system. Let's say it requires a#6 copper...panel in basement, and we are looking for mechanical protection of the equipment grounding conductor to keep a lawn mower from hitting it if there is no other choice as to where the ROD is placed.
> 
> RIVETER


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

There are some real creative inspectors here.

Hamilton township wanted me to take 3 old worked ceiling fans down once so he could see the ground screws. Turned it over to dca they told him to go back and bring a screwdriver. 

camden wanted to see the plastic bag that the rejection clips came in, (he thought they were fake) Even with the sticker.

clayton wanted to remove a #6 bonding wire from a pool and use a #8 because thats what the mfg required.

trenton wanted us to replace a panel for free, the lady couldnt afford it, we only contracted the meter pan and riser, took us a year to get them to pass it, they didnt fail it, just drug there feet passing it. His argument was that the price we charged we should have included the panel too.
same guy won't pass any work done in a residence with a pushmatic panel without twisting his arm (fpe and magnatrip is ok tho)

I had one that got out of the car with only red stickers because he once worked for the contractor I was working for and didnt like him.

I saw one pass where you had to take the back of the toilet cover off to get the panel cover open in new construction.

I would really love to see some consistencey here from one town to the next, even if it were more strict. You would think the requirements/test to become an inspector here would be harder to meet then the contractors exam.


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## Mr. Sparkle (Jan 27, 2009)

I used to work for an EC who was all chummy with the inspectors in the town I live in so he would consistently cut corners and rig stuff up on jobs......some of the things were downright horrific.


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## st0mps (Aug 19, 2009)

in nyc we run gec to water main before the hub and after incase they remove it still grounded and ground rod right in front of the panel its going into


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## CADPoint (Jul 5, 2007)

> I just read that again and it seems he wants the water pipe to still be bonded if the water meter is disconnected?? THAT is nutz


I'll go out on a limb and state that it's another building code issue for the ground that someone has a problem with. why wouldn't and shouldn't it be infront of valve in respects to the panel.

Ask any plumber they are taught and their own requirements are to temperarly bond any metal pipe work where a seperation such as a segment of a pipe is to be reworked.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

st0mps said:


> in nyc we run gec to water main before the hub and after incase they remove it still grounded and ground rod right in front of the panel its going into


Right, and that satisfies 250.53 (D)(1).

I did that.

What the inspector wanted to see was that the first termination was on the supply side and then jumped across to the other side of the meter. 

Technically there is no difference since both sides are bonded to the electrical system.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

_Hamilton township wanted me to take 3 old worked ceiling fans down once so he could see the ground screws._

Hamilton township? Did the guy have a huge box for his glasses in his upper shirt pocket?

That guys name is Al. He's also an instructor and a damn good one at that. The guy used to send us home with 200 questions on the NEC for homework every week. That guy loves electricity!


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