# Is this overkill?



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Typical tract housing that I'm seeing in Florida has the following:

-Dedicated 20 amp circuits for:

Dishwasher
Disposal
Fridge 
Microwave
Gas Dryer
Washer

-Code required circuit for counter tops, usually split between the island and counter top.

-Separate 20 amp circuit for dining room with required AFCI. 

This all seems like total overkill to me.

Usually I run all the kitchen appliances with dedicated 15 amp circuits with the rest being the code required 20 for the countertop and dining room. Sometimes I combine the dining room with the kitchen since the DR circuit never has any load on it anyway. I always run one 20 amp circuit for laundry even with a gas dryer and have never had a problem doing that.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

West coast or east coast?


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

of course it's overkill, but if that's what they are paying for, who cares ?

:sleep1:


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

wildleg said:


> of course it's overkill, but if that's what they are paying for, who cares ?
> 
> :sleep1:


Fair enough. :laughing:


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

macmikeman said:


> West coast or east coast?


Southwest FL right on the gulf.


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## Nutmegger777 (Mar 14, 2014)

That's pretty much how I wired my own house, and that's what I would sell to every customer, with the disclosure that it is well above the code. 
There is a certain contingent of customers out there that happily take the extra features and are just as happy to pay the premium for them. 
A great business opportunity if you ask me. 
I sell MC or AC over NM to them while I'm at it, while marking up the extra labor and the higher material cost proportionally. 
You have to realize (and most of us here probably do) that a lot of sales and service are also about the good feeling of extra reassurance or security that come with the premium products or extra features, whether or not there will ever be an actual need for those features. 
Kind of why people like paying for an off-road quality SUV while living in well-paved suburbs. That SUV will probably never see any offroad use, but the buyer gets a warm and fuzzy feeling that **if** they ever wanted to, they could..


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Nutmegger777 said:


> That's pretty much how I wired my own house, and that's what I would sell to every customer, with the disclosure that it is well above the code.
> There is a certain contingent of customers out there that happily take the extra features and are just as happy to pay the premium for them.
> A great business opportunity if you ask me.
> I sell MC or AC over NM to them while I'm at it, while marking up the extra labor and the higher material cost proportionally.
> ...


That's all well and good but this is the tract market we're talking about.


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## Nutmegger777 (Mar 14, 2014)

MTW said:


> That's all well and good but this is the tract market we're talking about.


Yeah, missed that part. I live and work in Fairfield County, CT, where median house price in many towns is over 1 mil., so we all live in a bubble here. 
Not happy about that. 
My own 800 sq. ft house is 250K


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

MTW said:


> Southwest FL right on the gulf.



Ok , I thought so. Back in the ancient times when I worked there it was such that inspectors ruled with iron fists, and you had to do it their way or no pass. One guy in the area would flunk any rough in if the electricians hadn't swept the floors properly prior to calling for rough in inspection. And just to code didn't satisfy them.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

macmikeman said:


> Ok , I thought so. Back in the ancient times when I worked there it was such that inspectors ruled with iron fists, and you had to do it their way or no pass. One guy in the area would flunk any rough in if the electricians hadn't swept the floors properly prior to calling for rough in inspection. And just to code didn't satisfy them.


Apparently that old way still lives on, every house I have looked at in the area, new or old, is wired way above what the NEC requires. I've never seen houses with so many underused 20 amp circuits.


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## Anathera (Feb 16, 2016)

We just wired a remodel with seven circuits in the kitchen; 15 a disposal, 15a dishwasher, 20 a microwave, three small appliance 20a and a 15 a lights but it was a 1850's house with nearly half a million already sunk in the remodel

Sent from my SM-G900R4 using Tapatalk


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

MTW said:


> Typical tract housing that I'm seeing in Florida has the following:
> 
> -Dedicated 20 amp circuits for:
> 
> ...


I always laugh a bit when people think how much better they are by running all 20 amp circuits to an appliance that draws 5 amps. When it comes to real facts they would be way better off running a 15 amp circuit to protect these types of appliances.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Nutmegger777 said:


> That's pretty much how I wired my own house, and that's what I would sell to every customer, with the disclosure that it is well above the code.
> There is a certain contingent of customers out there that happily take the extra features and are just as happy to pay the premium for them.
> A great business opportunity if you ask me.
> I sell MC or AC over NM to them while I'm at it, while marking up the extra labor and the higher material cost proportionally.
> ...


If I was building a house and you tried to talk me into MC over NM I would fire you and maybe even turn you into the local BBB.


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## dawgs (Dec 1, 2007)

Are you living in Florida now or visiting?


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

sbrn33 said:


> If I was building a house and you tried to talk me into MC over NM I would fire you and maybe even turn you into the local BBB.


I killed and ate a car dealer for trying to charge me for undercoating.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

splatz said:


> I killed and ate a car dealer for trying to charge me for undercoating.


Those guys are all gristle.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

dawgs said:


> Are you living in Florida now or visiting?


Visiting, my parents own a house here now. Been here for 3 weeks. :thumbup:

I had planned to move, but I can't stomach the pay cut I would have to take in Florida. Starting pay for a journeyman with experience, $16 an hour.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

sbrn33 said:


> I always laugh a bit when people think how much better they are by running all 20 amp circuits to an appliance that draws 5 amps. When it comes to real facts they would be way better off running a 15 amp circuit to protect these types of appliances.


I couldn't agree more. It's funny how they run a separate 20 amp circuit for a dishwasher and disposal, then plug a 16 gauge appliance cord into the receptacle.


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

MTW said:


> I couldn't agree more. It's funny how they run a separate 20 amp circuit for a dishwasher and disposal, then plug a 16 gauge appliance cord into the receptacle.


I've got both my DW and disposal on a SINGLE 20amp circuit. :whistling2:


























Cue reply of "Cool story bro" in 3, 2, 1...................:laughing:


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

mxslick said:


> I've got both my DW and disposal on a SINGLE 20amp circuit. :whistling2:
> Cue reply of "Cool story bro" in 3, 2, 1...................:laughing:


Sorry to disappoint you this time but no "cool story bro" for that one, I think that's better than separate 20's for each. :thumbsup: Truthfully, that's how I would do it with the new AFCI/GFCI rules for all the kitchen stuff, the additional cost of the #12 is saved by not running two separate 15's to each appliance and an AFCI/GFCI combo breaker for each one.


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

MTW said:


> Sorry to disappoint you this time but no "cool story bro" for that one, I think that's better than separate 20's for each. :thumbsup: Truthfully, that's how I would do it with the new AFCI/GFCI rules for all the kitchen stuff, the additional cost of the #12 is saved by not running two separate 15's to each appliance and an AFCI/GFCI combo breaker for each one.


LOL now we know the world is ending, you and I agree on something. 

Seriously though, I have never agreed with this separate circuit requirement crap anyway. Think of how the vast majority of people would use a disposal/dishwasher set up:



Rinse dishes into disposal sink
Load rinsed dishes into DW
Run disposal to clear it out (especially since a huge number of DW's drain into the disposal, so if it is left loaded with food waste, the DW can't drain or creates a "fun fountain" of crap flying out when the DW drains...)
Start DW cycle....
So wtf was the Code panel thinking on this one? You have two strong arguments against requiring a separate circuit:




Rarely, if ever, will both be run at the same time.
In the rare exceptions, the disposal would run no more than ONE MINUTE MAX. Hardly enough time to heat the wire or even trip a breaker.
Besides, every home I ever lived in had the DW and disp on the same circuit, and in over 20+ years of that, never had a breaker trip. 



I'd love to push a Code change on this one, but the AFCI Nazis would hate to lose sales on the extra AFCI required.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

MTW said:


> Typical tract housing that I'm seeing in Florida has the following:
> 
> -Dedicated 20 amp circuits for:
> 
> ...





Nutmegger777 said:


> That's pretty much how I wired my own house, and that's what I would sell to every customer, with the disclosure that it is well above the code.
> There is a certain contingent of customers out there that happily take the extra features and are just as happy to pay the premium for them.
> A great business opportunity if you ask me.
> I sell MC or AC over NM to them while I'm at it, while marking up the extra labor and the higher material cost proportionally.


PLEASE explain how you sell any of that as an "extra feature"??? :laughing:


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

electricmanscott said:


> PLEASE explain how you sell any of that as an "extra feature"??? :laughing:


It's certainly an "extra feature" that 99% of homeowners do not care about and don't understand.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

I like the dedicated MW and fridge, as others said, the rest is BS (as far as making it required).

Of course, if I had to estimate how many hours I spent amprobing and doubling up lighting ckts in commercial stores so they could add a ckt for something, I'd have to say I spent at least 1/4 of my career doing it, so . . . . I guess when disposals and dw's start getting made with 12 volt brushless motors, they'll be even more space in the future homowners' panels for robots, stargates, and stuff.


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## Nutmegger777 (Mar 14, 2014)

sbrn33 said:


> If I was building a house and you tried to talk me into MC over NM I would fire you and maybe even turn you into the local BBB.


Why? 
Maybe if I told you that MC is the only option, just to rip you off, fine, call me a crook and find another EC. 
But, if I gave you information about both types of cable (and I always do) and let you, the customer, make an informed decision, what is the beef? 
Yes, I started as a commercial apprentice and then I turned residential, so I do have an affinity toward AC and MC, but just like the ground prong up or down discussion, every cabling choice has its merits, and I support MC.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

Nutmegger777 said:


> But, if I gave you information about both types of cable (and I always do) and let you, the customer, make an informed decision, what is the beef?


What are your selling point on using MC over AC ?


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## Nutmegger777 (Mar 14, 2014)

hardworkingstiff said:


> What are your selling point on using MC over AC ?


-Virtually immune to rodent damage.
-Is more likely to last a century or more (ok, not everybody cares about that)
-Less EMF interference with home automation, Wi-Fi and blutetooth devices.
-More likely to trip the breaker if hit by a stray nail or screw. 
-Less likely to be pull-burned or otherwise damaged during the installation than NM. 

And, if the given customer does not care about all of the above, NM it is!


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Wired more than one house with mc cable by request of customer. Scared of the wiring damage from rats they had experienced in other houses they owned. Usually they will ask me to use emt initially. I was the one to suggest mc as being a bit cheaper for me to accomplish the same goal of deterring rats. After seeing some horror story rat damage jobs in infested houses , I can see the advantage to spending an extra dime for the mc.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Methinks the *50% *in 210.23(A)(2) is something that many can't count on knowing prior to a rough in


~CS~


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

splatz said:


> I killed and ate a car dealer for trying to charge me for undercoating.





InPhase277 said:


> Those guys are all gristle.


They taste like chicken.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

> (2) Utilization Equipment Fastened in Place. The total
> rating of utilization equipment fastened in place, other than
> luminaires, * shall not exceed 50 percent of the branch-
> circuit ampere rating* where lighting units, cord-and-plug-
> ...


Dishwasher~1200-1500
Disposal~450
Fridge ~
Microwave~1,500
Gas Dryer~300-400
Washer~

Source Another source

~CS~


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Nutmegger777 said:


> -Virtually immune to rodent damage.
> 
> -Is more likely to last a century or more (ok, not everybody cares about that)
> 
> ...


As long as you're explaining it to them like that, no scare tactics etc., I think you're offering them an upgrade, can't be anything wrong with that. 

My eyes pop at what people spend on some stupid stuff in high end homes, this costs a lot less that a lot of things and has some actual value. 

Chicago code requires conduit for everyone, which is a lot more expensive an upgrade, that's much more of a stretch. Although when you think about the overall safety claims, and the flexibility for repairs and maintenance, maybe it's not so bad. But if someone wants to offer it as an upgrade, why not? After all, we're not communists.


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

chicken steve said:


> Dishwasher~1200-1500
> Disposal~450
> Fridge ~
> Microwave~1,500
> ...


Still think it's a BS requirement because that disposal is such a short duty load (unlike the dishwasher) that there is absolutely NO safety benefit to be had by separating them on different circuits. 



> (2) Utilization Equipment Fastened in Place. The total
> rating of utilization equipment fastened in place, other than
> luminaires, * shall not exceed 50 percent of the branch-
> circuit ampere rating* where lighting units, cord-and-plug-
> ...


And if a dishwasher rated at 1500 w is connected it would be 62.5% so already a violation on a 20 amp circuit...does that mean a high-end dishwasher will require #10 and a 30 amp circuit (along with a 30 amp recept and cord set?) 

Even with all that, why are DW and disposal subject to a stupid 50% rated ampacity restriction, when virtually every other load (for calcs) (and breaker, and wire ampacity) are already derated to 80%?  Hell, even space heating (baseboard, in wall and in wall forced air) circuits are allowed to be sized at 80% and those can very much be continuous loads (a dishwasher is 1-2 hours max and doesn't meet Code definition of a continuous load). 

I'm all for doing it safe, but this is one time the NEC is overly restrictive without any solid hazards (or statistics) to back up the requirement.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

mxslick said:


> but this is one time the NEC is overly restrictive without any solid hazards (or statistics) to back up the requirement.



Are you kidding me? One time?


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

macmikeman said:


> Are you kidding me? One time?


LOL ok, one time of about 4,257.3 :laughing:


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## NC Plc (Mar 24, 2014)

Imma have a house wired in ac if I ever build one. Then again, I play around with a lot of rfi sensitive electronics cause I'm a weirdo.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

NC Plc said:


> Imma have a house wired in ac if I ever build one. Then again, I play around with a lot of rfi sensitive electronics cause I'm a weirdo.


If I ever build a house, anything that goes to the first floor ceiling will be in EMT, so it can be maintained without drywall and paint work, and anything in the attic will be AC, since the squirrels have an open contract on my head. 

I think RFI problems with NM and house wiring are like bigfoot, talked about a lot but very seldom actually seen.


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## Barjack (Mar 28, 2010)

This is where I'm getting confused. I usually run a 20A circuit for the dish/disposal. Since they are both fastened in place, and there are no other loads, I don't think 210.23A(2) applies. Please correct me, but I think as long as the two loads add up to less than 20A I'm good.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

mxslick said:


> > Still think it's a BS requirement because that disposal is such a short duty load (unlike the dishwasher) that there is absolutely NO safety benefit to be had by separating them on different circuits.
> 
> 
> You could argue the point via *220.60 Noncoincident Loads*, yet it unfortunately addresses feeder/service calcs only....
> ...


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Many appliances call for individual circuits so I understand the logic. If the dishwasher says individual circuit that technically you are suppose to do it that way. I have seen a wine cooler that draws 180 watts call for a separate circuit


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## Barjack (Mar 28, 2010)

I really think the 50% rule only applies if there are other loads (not fastened in place) on the circuit.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Barjack said:


> I really think the 50% rule only applies if there are other loads (not fastened in place) on the circuit.


The 50% rule comes in if you have fastened in place loads connected with general use receptacles. A duplex receptacle under a sink to serve a DW and disposal is not a general use receptacle, so the rule doesn't apply. Your 20 amp scenario is fine.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

So how does one define >>>

*fastened in place*

?~CS~?


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## Barjack (Mar 28, 2010)

chicken steve said:


> So how does one define >>>
> 
> *fastened in place*
> 
> ?~CS~?


Common sense? 

A DW is usually in its own cabinet space, fastened to the underside of the counter top (I know there are free standing DW's but we all know we're not talking about that), and a disposal is mounted under a sink and connected to plumbing. Both are not easily removed.


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## Barjack (Mar 28, 2010)

MTW said:


> The 50% rule comes in if you have fastened in place loads connected with general use receptacles. A duplex receptacle under a sink to serve a DW and disposal is not a general use receptacle, so the rule doesn't apply. Your 20 amp scenario is fine.


So what are Slick and Chicken ranting about? :whistling2:

The only other article that might apply is 220.18(A)



> *220.18 Maximum Loads.* The total load shall not exceed
> the rating of the branch circuit, and it shall not exceed the
> maximum loads specified in 220.18(A) through (C) under
> the conditions specified therein.
> ...


One might need to apply 125% to the disposal, as it is probably the larges motor of the two.


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

splatz said:


> As long as you're explaining it to them like that, no scare tactics etc., I think you're offering them an upgrade, can't be anything wrong with that.
> 
> My eyes pop at what people spend on some stupid stuff in high end homes, this costs a lot less that a lot of things and has some actual value.
> 
> ...


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

flyboy said:


> As long as you're explaining it to them like that, no scare tactics etc., I think you're offering them an upgrade, can't be anything wrong with that.
> 
> My eyes pop at what people spend on some stupid stuff in high end homes, this costs a lot less that a lot of things and has some actual value.
> 
> ...


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

> Isn't that a line from the "Godfather"?


....


Barzini said:


> Certainly, he can present a bill for such services. After all, we're not Communists. But he must let us draw the water from the well.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Barjack said:


> Common sense?
> 
> A DW is usually in its own cabinet space, fastened to the underside of the counter top (I know there are free standing DW's but we all know we're not talking about that), and a disposal is mounted under a sink and connected to plumbing. Both are not easily removed.


I was thinking perhaps *fasteners*, something requiring toolage...?

~CS~


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## Barjack (Mar 28, 2010)

chicken steve said:


> I was thinking perhaps *fasteners*, something requiring toolage...?
> 
> 
> 
> ~CS~



Is this fun for you?

Please tell us the real world story of the time you had to argue this point with an inspector. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Barjack said:


> Is this fun for you?
> 
> Please tell us the real world story of the time you had to argue this point with an inspector.


Just ignore his gibberish. Your sanity will stay intact that way.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

MTW said:


> Typical tract housing that I'm seeing in Florida has the following:
> 
> -Dedicated 20 amp circuits for:
> 
> ...



Morbid over kill that will never pay off. Personally I think we have folks who can not load calc. Either that the inspectors are to literal. 

When I wire homes the DW and disposal is always on the same 20amp circuit, ditto for a gas washer and dryer. Dinning room / Pantry is always shared with the kitchen SABC Fridge and Micro on the same circuit although I tend to put the fridge on its own dedicated 15 amp circuit (its a fetish of mine). Otherwise everything else gets maxed out to the code. In cold climates I to do 4 or 5va per foot instead of code mandated 3. Other then that I see no reason to go above code. 

There is a catch however when manufactures call for dedicated circuits (usage and listing). So if an inspector picks up the instructions for typical home appliances he could in theory legally ask for extra circuits.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

mxslick said:


> LOL now we know the world is ending, you and I agree on something.
> 
> Seriously though, I have never agreed with this separate circuit requirement crap anyway. Think of how the vast majority of people would use a disposal/dishwasher set up:
> 
> ...



CMPs only care about maximizing manufacturer $$$$. In Canada it is legal to wire an entire home in all 15 amp circuits, and if you have a fixed in place 240 volt appliances you can legally load #14 to 20amp and slap in a 25 or 30amp breaker for your 125% rule. 

People laugh at me on forums when I say SABCs can get away with being 15 amps "thats the dumbest thing Ive ever read" "you clearly have never turned a page in the NEC" "Uhhh, dude, have you ever seen the wattage on a toaster" however across the boarder proof lays in several million homes that never trip a single breaker. Personally the only time code should require a 20amp circuit is when the appliance or combination of appliances exceed 15amps total.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

wildleg said:


> I like the dedicated MW and fridge, as others said, the rest is BS (as far as making it required).
> 
> Of course, if I had to estimate how many hours I spent amprobing and doubling up lighting ckts in commercial stores so they could add a ckt for something, I'd have to say I spent at least 1/4 of my career doing it, so . . . . I guess when disposals and dw's start getting made with 12 volt brushless motors, they'll be even more space in the future homowners' panels for robots, stargates, and stuff.



If you look at the labeling on home appliances current draw is actually going down. Here is one to a new builders grade dishwasher which were known to be energy hogs just a decade ago. At 6.2 amps I still have 8.8amp, a basic builders grade disposal pulls only 4 amps:

http://www.abt.com/product/57442/GE-GFC325V.html?utm_source=google&utm_medium=sc&utm_c%20ampaign=GFC325&camptype=cpcUSGooglePLA&kwid=produc%20tads-adid^77416723924-device^c-plaid^216817426564-sku^57442-adType^PLA 


And a really good high end pulls 8.1:


https://www.zoro.com/in-sink-erator...gclid=COXEjLfEzssCFRRgfgodwD8Acg&gclsrc=aw.ds 

So with that said a new home will do fine with a single 15 amp circuit for both.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> Dishwasher~1200-1500
> Disposal~450
> Fridge ~
> Microwave~1,500
> ...



Those sources are dated which perpetuate old beliefs. The current draw on Dishwashers is actually sharply going down (see pic above for example), and the same goes for clothes washers without a heater (most dont unless you get a high end front load). Fridges are also going down and disposals to a lesser extent. The only real high current draw items in resi now are over the range microwaves and counter top appliances. And Canada has shown all of those are doing fine on a 15 amp circuit. 120 volt 20 amp circuits have no practical purpose in residential. Zero, zip, nadda.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

mxslick said:


> Still think it's a BS requirement because that disposal is such a short duty load (unlike the dishwasher) that there is absolutely NO safety benefit to be had by separating them on different circuits.



You fell for those links  :jester: The efficiency of both disposers and dishwasher is going down such that both loads combined no longer exceed 15 amps let alone 20. See post #54. Even if both were left to run for 3 hours at 100% rated load (impossible as the disposer's thermal would most likely trip as those motors are sized/specked for intermediate duty) the wire would never be overloaded. 



> And if a dishwasher rated at 1500 w is connected it would be 62.5% so already a violation on a 20 amp circuit...does that mean a high-end dishwasher will require #10 and a 30 amp circuit (along with a 30 amp recept and cord set?)


Id still give a 1,500 watt dishwasher a 15 amp circuit provided voltage drop is reasonable (not going over say 8 or 10%). 




> Even with all that, why are DW and disposal subject to a stupid 50% rated ampacity restriction, when virtually every other load (for calcs) (and breaker, and wire ampacity) are already derated to 80%?


I agree with you 100%, and you bring up several very good points. I appluad you for thinking outside the box. 


First off, if both plug into a single under-the-sink duplex receptacle (or two singles) I cant see a 3rd load being connected by a plumber or DIY. Therefore the circuit should be allowed to be loaded to 100% regardless of being "fastened in place" or not. One could in theory unplug the DW or DP and plug in an 1,800 watt insta tank, but thats why we have breakers. One would argue what if the breaker fails? Maybe code protects against that? In truth the CMP does not take that into consideration. 

Case in point, a code proposal was to have each bathroom receptacle on a separate circuit to prevent two 1,800 watt hair dryers from overloading it. The CMPs rejected the proposal simply saying the breaker would then trip. 


Second, if both appliances are hard wired it is IMPOSSIBLE for a DIY or plumber to add load*. Therefore, theoretically, 240.4 (d) could be withdrawn from this application since the actual rating of #14 is 20amps at 75*C. 240.4 (d) makes sense for multi receptacle circuits due to the fact nothing controls overload. A breaker never trips at 100%, and often starts at 125% and can legally hold 134% indefinitely. Therefore, while #14 can hold 20amps, a person can plug in 25amps worth of load while never having a breaker trip overloading the wire indefinitely; as 125% of 20 is 25 amps. Remember, 125% may or may not ever trip a 20 amp breaker. However where loads are fixed and hard wired without receptacles a typical user can not add more load which means overload protection is inherent to the load itself and not required to be present within the OCPD. Only short circuit and ground fault protection is then a concern for the circuit in such an application. 

Now, I know what you are thinking >> :blink::001_huh::wacko: But I will explain my reasoning after the next quote. 

** With one exception. Anyone can install a larger DW or disposal exceeding 15 amps total. Because this job is often done by none electricians, it is advised for real life reasons that overload protection remain and #14 be restricted to 15 amps and #12 to 20 just in case.

Also, if all the load passes via a typical switch, or terminations without a listing, #14 would still be restricted to 15 amps via code since unlisted terminals under 100amps are required to have 60*C sized wire. #14 used to be 20 at 60*, but was changed a few cycles code ago. 







> Hell, even space heating (baseboard, in wall and in wall forced air) circuits are allowed to be sized at 80% and those can very much be continuous loads (a dishwasher is 1-2 hours max and doesn't meet Code definition of a continuous load).


Nope, not in the CEC  :thumbup: Or the rest of the world. Let me explain. 

In Canada I can legally put 20amps of fixed electric heat on #14 with a 25 amp breaker, I can legally place 25 amps of electric heat on #12 with a 35 amp breaker and legally place 35 amps of electric on #10 with a 45 amp breaker. This is key.

The reason being is twofold. First, because the heating load is fixed in place it is impossible for a home user to plug in (add) more load exceeding the rating of the cable. Therefore, the cable has overload protection. Same way an AC unit with #12 can have a 50amp breaker per NEC. It is further supported by the fact our NEC's next size up rule is forbidden when feeding receptacle circuits, say for example several NEMA 6-50s. The unit itself does not draw more then rated, and more units can not be added by unqualified personnel, therefore the cable can not overload. 

Thus, the cable now only has two factors (short circuits and ground faults) which could overheat it leading to fire. It is pure myth that in wall wiring needs overload protection. It does not, and reason being that all known modes of failure in building wiring and splice boxes (excluding series phenomenon like glowing connections or loose which produce no fault current in themselves) create currents many magnitudes over the typical rating of building wire. To clarify further laboratory testing involving AFCIs, short circuit and arc faults have shown that when a short circuit does take place in fixed building wiring, it is *always* below a few ohms. In fact, testing demonstrated that the biggest limiting element of short circuit current is not the fault point itself, but rather the impedance of the building wiring and the available short circuit current (impedance) of the utility supply (utility transformer & service drop). In fact under an absolute worse case rare scenario with only 500amps short circuit current at the service and over 200 feet of #14 NM, 75amps is the absolute lowest level of short circuit current one may encounter in residential during a fault condition out on the circuit. When NM cable was made to fail via damage (short circuit) connected to a supply capable of delivering 1000s of amps of short circuit current to the experiment, fault current was always well over 100amps often at around several hundred amps minimum. An axiom can therefore be made: "when given an infinite source at 120 volts, a short circuit fault of any nature will always draw more then 100amps" 

Thus, it has been proven that there is no such thing as an 3, 8, 10, 16, 30, 40, 50, 60 or 70amp short circuit. And that would be a good thing as 16 amps would never trip a breaker. This is exactly why the NEC lets us up size OCPDs to motors, because they know that when a short circuit does take place it will always be hundreds if not thousands of amps. Overload is purely something connected load (stalled motor) (or occupants plugging in to much) can pull off. 

http://newscience.ul.com/wp-content...lity_to_Mitigate_Parallel_Arcing_Faults_2.pdf



Therefore, the OCPD sizing only takes two instead of 3 contingencies into account making its selection less restricted. 


Because breakers generate heat, and because heat build up within panels can lower a breaker's trip threshold, a 125% rule is mandatory for loads running over 3 hours. Thus, to avoid nuisance tripping the thermal pickup is 125% of the normal continuous load which for a 15amp load is 18.75 or the next standard size of 20amps.

Because at least 100amps, or typically several hundred amps flow on a ground fault or short circuit the speed at which a 15, 20, 30 or even 40 amp rated bimetal bends back is negligible as it is of such speed the rapid clearing time protects the wire from any thermal damage. If the current gets into the magnetic trip region of the breaker, as it is likely to in the typical lengths associated between the panel and DW/DP, the trip will be instantaneous not even requiring the bimetal to heat up. 

In fact, if total circuit impedance and POCO fault current is such that it would be able to provide 800amps on short circuit I could safely (from a theoretical standpoint) protect that #14 with a 100 if not 200amp breaker provided the magnetic pickup of the breaker does not exceed 800amps. This is actually why a branch short circuit can take out a none GFP main sometimes. When dealing with magnetic trip there is no delay. And it is also the exact reason why the NEC lets you provide short circuit protection for motors with a purely magnetic OCPD set at 800% as 800% of 15 is 120amps which I am sure the lowest short circuit current anticipated in any motor installation. 





> I'm all for doing it safe, but this is one time the NEC is overly restrictive without any solid hazards (or statistics) to back up the requirement.


I agree 100%. Science and the laws of physics prove that its safe. Heck the codes own language says so.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Barjack said:


> Is this fun for you?
> 
> Please tell us the real world story of the time you had to argue this point with an inspector.
> 
> ...


Steve is trying to get you guys to think. :thumbsup: Please respect that even if you can not 





MTW said:


> Just ignore his gibberish. Your sanity will stay intact that way.



Its far from gibberish. He (like always) is asking a really good question that applies to things we bump into every day in this trade. Again, please be respectful of that


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Barjack said:


> Is this fun for you?
> 
> Please tell us the real world story of the time you had to argue this point with an inspector.
> 
> ...


It hails from a CMP debate ~CS~


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Grand post AT :thumbsup:, more proof of our _copperholic _addiction focusing on the conductor(s), and not the protective devices they originate from. 

Noteworthy example is the 15A refer exception. 
It's actually safer in respect to mag trip levels to go 15A Vs 20A for a sm motor.

Another point is an afci's lower mag trip , _what are they_? about 1/2 the normal ocpd ?:blink:

As we start wiring kitchens,baths , and everything else via afci _(the '17 is rumoured to require of ALL 120V afci'd) _, we'll most likely be debating mag trips, mag trip levels, and mag trip theory:whistling2:

I feel so....european! :laughing:~CS~


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## Barjack (Mar 28, 2010)

AcidTrip said:


> Steve is trying to get you guys to think. :thumbsup: Please respect that even if you can not
> 
> Its far from gibberish. He (like always) is asking a really good question that applies to things we bump into every day in this trade. Again, please be respectful of that


OK, I get it. You and Steve are the wise elders here and you're helping us along the path to enlightenment.

Sarcasm aside, I respect what you both have done in the trade and here on ET, its just the devils advocate crap gets a little old.

So enlighten me already. What is it about the simple phrase "fastened in place" that a cretin like me is missing? I think it is a concise, clear string of words that needs no other explanation. 

If on the off chance it comes up, I think it ought to be the AHJ's call, much like "subject to physical damage".


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> Grand post AT , more proof of our _copperholic _addiction focusing on the conductor(s), and not the protective devices they originate from.


We can get away with a lot less copper and still be within practical safe guards. Just ask Canada. 



> Noteworthy example is the 15A refer exception.
> It's actually safer in respect to mag trip levels to go 15A Vs 20A for a sm motor.


Well, with some single pole breakers the mag trip is actually the same for both 15 and 20amp version since they use the same design, just the bimetal pickup curve is different. 


The only reason I put the fridge on a dedicated 15 is just out of karma that should the SABC go down you loose the fridge. I just sleep better at night knowing that. Dont ask, just one of my strange no substance superstitious feel goods :laughing: 




> Another point is an afci's lower mag trip , _what are they_? about 1/2 the normal ocpd ?:blink:


Well, its funny, but that UL doc does say a mag trip of 125% of a parellel arc fault will mitigate it... Hence why the 70 foot rule exists in the NEC for AFCIs. 




> As we start wiring kitchens,baths , and everything else via afci _(the '17 is rumoured to require of ALL 120V afci'd) _, we'll most likely be debating mag trips, mag trip levels, and mag trip theory:whistling2:


THe entire concept that put AFCIs to the code has never been proven even until this very day. AFCIs are being propped up by pure myth, short circuits and glowing connections that were re labelled arc faults via clever marketing. You also have sacrificial lambs like ESFI that says 30,000 home fires are from arcing. Sacrificial, because if the NFPA is ever asked to show proof in legal court that 30,000 fires come from mythical arcing, ESFI will take the heat and not the NFPA. They not only have a markeing plan in place, but also a series of contingency plans should the merde hit the fan of awareness. 





> I feel so....european! :laughing:~CS~


If funny, while a sustained arc fault can occur at voltages over 230 volts, its not something that happens with any ease at 120 volts. So with said we never had a need for AFCIs, and those that did like Europe took a very different route. One that does not involve nuisance tripping electronica. But dont tell our NFPA that :laughing::laughing:


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

AcidTrip said:


> Its far from gibberish. He (like always) is asking a really good question that applies to things we bump into every day in this trade. Again, please be respectful of that


His nitpicking about "fastened in place" was gibberish. A disposal is fastened in place. A dishwasher, if installed correctly, is fastened in place. Not difficult concepts to understand and certainly not something to debate about.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

MTW said:


> His nitpicking about "fastened in place" was gibberish. A disposal is fastened in place. A dishwasher, if installed correctly, is fastened in place. Not difficult concepts to understand and certainly not something to debate about.



You missed his point. :no:


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

AcidTrip said:


> You missed his point. :no:


If I did, it was because of his usual obfuscated language.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Barjack said:


> OK, I get it. You and Steve are the wise elders here and you're helping us along the path to enlightenment.



Truth is like a drug, once you experience it you can not depart from it. Truth sounds a bit like this:




O Freunde, nicht diese Tá¶ne! 
Sondern lasst uns angenehmere
anstimmen und freudenvollere.
Freude! Freude!

Freude, schá¶ner Gá¶tterfunken
Tochter aus Elysium,
Wir betreten feuertrunken,
Himmlische, dein Heiligtum!
Deine Zauber binden wieder
Was die Mode streng geteilt;
Alle Menschen werden Brá¼der,
(Schillers Original:
Was der Mode Schwert geteilt;
Bettler werden Fá¼rstenbrá¼der,)
Wo dein sanfter Flá¼gel weilt.

Wem der groáe Wurf gelungen,
Eines Freundes Freund zu sein;
Wer ein holdes Weib errungen,
Mische seinen Jubel ein!
Ja, wer auch nur eine Seele
Sein nennt auf dem Erdenrund!
Und wer's nie gekonnt, der stehle
Weinend sich aus diesem Bund!

Freude trinken alle Wesen
An den Brá¼sten der Natur;
Alle Guten, alle Bá¶sen
Folgen ihrer Rosenspur.
Ká¼sse gab sie uns und Reben,
Einen Freund, geprá¼ft im Tod;
Wollust ward dem Wurm gegeben,
Und der Cherub steht vor Gott.

Froh, wie seine Sonnen fliegen
Durch des Himmels prá¤cht'gen Plan,
Laufet, Brá¼der, eure Bahn,
Freudig, wie ein Held zum Siegen.

Seid umschlungen, Millionen!
Diesen Kuss der ganzen Welt!
Brá¼der, á¼ber'm Sternenzelt
Muss ein lieber Vater wohnen.
Ihr stá¼rzt nieder, Millionen?
Ahnest du den Schá¶pfer, Welt?
Such' ihn á¼ber'm Sternenzelt!
áber Sternen muss er wohnen.

Finale repeats the words:
Seid umschlungen, Millionen!
Diesen Kuss der ganzen Welt!
Brá¼der, á¼ber'm Sternenzelt
Muss ein lieber Vater wohnen.
Seid umschlungen,
Diesen Kuss der ganzen Welt!
Freude, schá¶ner Gá¶tterfunken
Tochter aus Elysium,
Freude, schá¶ner Gá¶tterfunken


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

MTW said:


> His nitpicking about "fastened in place" was gibberish. A disposal is fastened in place. A dishwasher, if installed correctly, is fastened in place. Not difficult concepts to understand and certainly not something to debate about.


Many a DW are simply rolled into place & energized w/male cord cap SO cord MTW....

i.e.> the average house mouse could w/o toolage, remove it....:whistling2:


Ergo, they are not '_fastened_' 


A furnace, otoh, is .....such rhetorical aspects of code vernacular may seem a semantical argument to some , but_ not_ cmp seats , whom address such down to_ punctuation_.....:laughing:

~C*(....//@#$%^&*(+_?":;// )*S~


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

MTW said:


> If I did, it was because of his usual obfuscated language.



Perhaps, but sometimes one needs to less direct as to not attract the wrong attention. Some people (not you) do not do well when something profound is stated directly.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> Many a DW are simply rolled into place & energized w/male cord cap SO cord MTW....
> 
> i.e.> the average house mouse could w/o toolage, remove it....:whistling2:
> 
> ...




Many GB disposals can be changed without tools. They simple have a twist on connection.


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## Barjack (Mar 28, 2010)

chicken steve said:


> Many a DW are simply rolled into place & energized w/male cord cap SO cord MTW....
> 
> i.e.> the average house mouse could w/o toolage, remove it....:whistling2:
> 
> ...


So since it is not officially defined, much like "subject to physical damage", it is the AHJ's call.


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## Barjack (Mar 28, 2010)

AcidTrip said:


> Perhaps, but sometimes one needs to less direct as to not attract the wrong attention. Some people (not you) do not do well when something profound is stated directly.


I know you're talking about me . 

.....but I hardly think this concept qualifies as profound.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Barjack said:


> I know you're talking about me .
> 
> .....but I hardly think this concept qualifies as profound.



Only slightly, I have others in mind to a far greater extent. But one has to yet define fastened in place... is a washer fastened in place?


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Barjack said:


> So since it is not officially defined, much like "subject to physical damage", it is the AHJ's call.


Yes it can Barjack

Apparently it has been disputed enough to have risen to higher levels 

Such is the NEC 

It lacked many definitions which were, in the past, make/break calls for a field spark

~CS~


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## Barjack (Mar 28, 2010)

AcidTrip said:


> ... is a washer fastened in place?


Yes, it is.

Other pipes and hoses hold it "in place" so to speak, although I'll grant not rigidly.

The plumbing necessary for a washer, dishwasher, disposal, etc, make it not easily removed and relocated, as in the case of a coffee maker, toaster, counter top MW, etc. Same for a gas dryer, cooktop or oven.

Fastening doesn't just mean screws and bolts, which is why it should be left up to interpretation.


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## Barjack (Mar 28, 2010)

chicken steve said:


> Yes it can Barjack
> 
> Apparently it has been disputed enough to have risen to higher levels
> 
> ...


I'd love it if you could show me these CMP discussions.

Links or it didn't happen.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Barjack said:


> Yes, it is.


Is it? What is holding it down? 



> Other pipes and hoses hold it "in place" so to speak, although I'll grant not rigidly.


I have a portable counter top dishwasher or a full size portable DW. It has hoses the hook up to the sink. Is it still fastened in place?




> The plumbing necessary for a washer, dishwasher, disposal, etc, make it not easily removed and relocated, as in the case of a coffee maker, toaster, counter top MW, etc. Same for a gas dryer, cooktop or oven.



But that does not touch the term "fastened" in the literal sense. 




> Fastening doesn't just mean screws and bolts, which is why it should be left up to interpretation.


Can you show me proof to support this?


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## Barjack (Mar 28, 2010)

AcidTrip said:


> Can you show me proof to support this?


The burden of proof is on you.

This is why is believe it is still not officially defined. It should be a judgement call.

So put in a request to define "fastened in place", or change the language to "not easily removed" or whatever. I only think doing so will further restrict the code, and I'm against that.

.....sometimes I can't believe what dorks we all are.


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## Anathera (Feb 16, 2016)

We were jammed on a bookshelf being in front of a box because it was heavy enough to be called fastened in place because of two tiny screws and was not "easily accessible" just depends on the inspector ' s mood it seems 

Sent from my SM-G900R4 using Tapatalk


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Barjack said:


> The burden of proof is on you.
> 
> This is why is believe it is still not officially defined. It should be a judgement call.
> 
> ...



IMO fastened in place should just be thrown out all together. The NEC treats electricians like tards who cant manage a basic common sense load calc.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Barjack said:


> I'd love it if you could show me these CMP discussions.
> 
> Links or it didn't happen.


I wish i could too Barjack, can't seem to find it again


http://www.nfpa.org/codes-and-standards/document-information-pages?mode=code&code=70&DocNum=70

~CS~


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> I wish i could too Barjack, can't seem to find it again
> 
> 
> http://www.nfpa.org/codes-and-standards/document-information-pages?mode=code&code=70&DocNum=70
> ...



I think this forum needs a link dump thread with a search feature. I bump into the best links all the time, bookmark them and then years latter when the exact same topic comes up in a forum can't find it


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

I agree AT, my _'lectrical fav's'_ alone who need a TT unit to move if printed...., but what of bandwidth concerns...? ~CS~


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> I agree AT, my _'lectrical fav's'_ alone who need a TT unit to move if printed...., but what of bandwidth concerns...? ~CS~



:001_huh: Sorry, lost in CS to AT translation  :icon_redface:


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