# Surge Protection Questions



## Split Bolt (Aug 30, 2010)

OK, I've got a lot of questions, so I'll try to briefly cover each one. With more and more surge suppression/protection requested lately, some interesting questions come up. Remember the old lightning protectors that were filled with buckshot and literally exploded when they took a charge? I have 2 clients that have had those improperly installed INSIDE their panels and they exploded, doing more harm than good! (or at least, different harm) Anyway, those have been replaced with newer electronic devices that take a hit and need to be replaced when the light goes out. Here is my first question:

Siemens has a nice one that takes the place of 2 breakers and still lets you have breakers.

http://www.sea.siemens.com/us/Produ...Surge-Protection/PublishingImages/QSA2020.jpg

Pricey, but nice. GE makes one that requires 2 empty spaces:

http://www.geindustrial.com/cwc/Dispatcher?REQUEST=PRODUCTS&pnlid=3&famid=37&catid=86&id=thqlsurg

I have also used Intermatic's model, which has a flush-mount plate available for drywalled applications:

http://www.intermatic.com/products/...ential hardwired/ig1240rc3 and ig3240rc3.aspx

Now the questions. Would it be legal to mix and match the Siemens & GE models? For example, mount a GE THQLSURGE in a Siemens or CH BR panel or vice versa? I have sent many e-mails to the manufacturers, but never get a response. Obviously, they would fit, but I'm more concerned with warranty and liability issues.

Next, the Intermatic model just changed. It used to require, in the installation manual, a dedicated 2-pole breaker for it. The newer model has 2 ways of installation, one NOT requiring a dedicated breaker.

http://www.intermatic.com/~/media/files/intermatic/products/instructions/surge%20suppression/ig1240rc3.ashx

Is it legal to put this under the main lugs like the old lightning arrestors used to be installed?

I have 2 customers that want whole house surge suppressors and have GE panels completely filled with "wafer" breakers. They are waiting for me to find them something and this new Intermatic model might be what the doctor ordered. What do you all think? 

Sorry for the long read!


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

you can use a cutler hammer ultra and use the brand of the panel's 2p 15a on it. I do lots of surge protection. Customers love the CH because it has green lights to let you know it is still working and my rep said lifetime warranty. Small sub panel to make room for the 2p 15 amp breaker.


Or if they have a lot of lighting and recep circuits they don't use much you could take 4 circuits and make two(pigtail). That is if loads allow that. Well with wafers more so probably wouldn't work just caught that.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

I like to put them inside an enclosure in a resi setting. I have seen some go the way of Chernobyl and it ain't pretty, I don't even use plastic plug strips for the same reason. 

If there is room in the panel just screw it in thereno:<me not giving a damn if that's not a listed install). 

I don't like putting stuff under the lugs. I doubt most are going to be listed anyway (I care about that listing cause I don't want to burn a lug up). With a separate breaker you can change a blown TVSS easier anyway.


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## Split Bolt (Aug 30, 2010)

Yeah, I don't like the idea of the main lugs either. I guess another option might be to share a 2-pole breaker, like the water heater or something. My house has a GE with lots of space, so it was easy just to pop-in the THQLSURGE. All of the ones I showed have green lights as well. (the Siemens used to have red LEDs, but they have recently changed to green) I have a client that has the Siemens and the lights went out. I told him how much it would be to replace it (they are not cheap) and his attitude was "that's probably nothing compared with the money I would have had to pay without it and the PITA of dealing with insurance adjusters!" I wish all customers were as intelligent as he!:thumbsup:

Thanks for the tips, I will look into the Cutler Hammer model as well. I think I saw them once at Big Blue...3 different models, good, better and best or something like that!


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

I would not share a breaker. The surge is ul listed with it's own breaker. A lot of newer water heaters have electronics on them too. Not a smart move for a legitimate company. Assuming you are.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> I would not share a breaker. The surge is ul listed with it's own breaker. A lot of newer water heaters have electronics on them too. Not a smart move for a legitimate company. Assuming you are.


So a hack can't do quality work only legit operations? :laughing:


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> So a hack can't do quality work only legit operations? :laughing:




Is using the water heater breaker quality in your mind???:whistling2::laughing:


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## Split Bolt (Aug 30, 2010)

jwjrw said:


> I would not share a breaker. The surge is ul listed with it's own breaker. A lot of newer water heaters have electronics on them too. Not a smart move for a legitimate company. Assuming you are.


I am. That's why I'm asking. I don't want to do anything that would void a warranty or not work properly. I'm just trying to avoid setting sub-panels for stinking TVSSs! (one of them is a flush-mount panel in drywall)

Who would wire a house using a 20/40 GE panel completely full with 1/2 space wafers anyway? Boggles the mind!


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> Is using the water heater breaker quality in your mind???:whistling2::laughing:


It wouldn't work here cause a lot of older homes have Al feeding the 240 stuff. I ain't mixing Al and Cu under a breaker lug. :no:


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Split Bolt said:


> I am. That's why I'm asking. I don't want to do anything that would void a warranty or not work properly. I'm just trying to avoid setting sub-panels for stinking TVSSs! (one of them is a flush-mount panel in drywall)
> 
> Who would wire a house using a 20/40 GE panel completely full with 1/2 space wafers anyway? Boggles the mind!




The CH has a flush mount kit. Either combine a few circuits are sell a sub panel. More work more money.:thumbsup:
But I know what you mean.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> It wouldn't work here cause a lot of older homes have Al feeding the 240 stuff. I ain't mixing Al and Cu under a breaker lug. :no:



So your saying your only half a hack?????:whistling2::laughing:


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> So your saying your only half a hack?????:whistling2::laughing:


Where does the other half come from? 

BTW don't forget to add 50 volts to your meter readings. :laughing:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Surge protector exploding is often part of the device doing it's jobs


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> Where does the other half come from?
> 
> BTW don't forget to add 50 volts to your meter readings. :laughing:




Don't have to anymore. I received a new one from Ideal in the mail Thursday.....free of charge! They even upgraded me to a 600a model by mistake.:thumbsup:


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> Don't have to anymore. I received a new one from Ideal in the mail Thursday.....free of charge! They even upgraded me to a 600a model by mistake.:thumbsup:



:thumbsup::thumbsup:

Cool!


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> :thumbsup::thumbsup:
> 
> Cool!


Yea I was very impressed with ideals customer service. The meter they sent had a sticker on it with my old model number but must have been boxed wrong. My old meter had 400a on it this one says 600a. I received it in 2 days after calling. Was on the phone less than 5 minutes also. Great experience.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> Don't have to anymore. I received a new one from Ideal in the mail Thursday.....free of charge! They even upgraded me to a 600a model by mistake.:thumbsup:


 Now what do I have, oh I guess you still can't quote, I can still make fun of that. :laughing:


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> Now what do I have, oh I guess you still can't quote, I can still make fun of that. :laughing:




Yea there is always that. Maybe Badgers school of quoting will accept me one day.


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