# Multi Wire Branch Circuits



## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

Residential - multi wire branch circuit

Single phase 4 wire branch circuits that consist of 2 ungrounded conductors, 1 neutral and an EGC that feed two lighting circuits or 2 branch circuits for convince receptacles would require either a common trip breaker or 2 single pole breakers with a handle tie. 210.4(b)

Commercial - multi wire branch circuit

Is there any situation or code requirement that dictates the use of a common trip or “Handle Tie” to be used in commercial or industrial applications where 2 or 3 circuits are feed with a single neutral?

It’s obvious that you would shut off all 3 circuits associated with the neutral if you were working on a 3 phase multi wire branch circuit to avoid getting across the neutral but that’s common sense. I’m just conserved with how the NEC deals with it. So far I find no reference and have never seen it applied to 3 phase circuits that feed lights or plugs either 120v or 277v.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

It applies to everything, resi and commercial, including 3 phase. You posted the article. 



> 210.4(B) Disconnecting Means. Each multiwire branch circuit shall be provided with a means that will simultaneously disconnect all ungrounded conductors at the point where the branch circuit originates.


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## farmantenna (Nov 22, 2012)

obvious to you but not ... .


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

HackWork said:


> It applies to everything, resi and commercial, including 3 phase. You posted the article.


It seems quite clear when you read that but there must be more to this. In commercial and industrial applications I have never seen common trip or "handle ties" on any branch circuits that feed 120 volt plugs or lighting or 277v lighting circuits even on new installations. I guess no one is complying to the rules. 240.15 (B) (1) & (2) seems with confirm this.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Easy said:


> It seems quite clear when you read that but there must be more to this. In commercial and industrial applications I have never seen common trip or "handle ties" on any branch circuits that feed 120 volt plugs or lighting or 277v lighting circuits even on new installations. I guess no one is complying to the rules. 240.15 (B) (1) & (2) seems to confirm this. Scathing my head?


It is a relatively new change, I believe it was 2008. Maybe that’s why you don’t see the handle ties that often.


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

HackWork said:


> It is a relatively new change, I believe it was 2008. Maybe that’s why you don’t see the handle ties that often.


Yes this is probably why. I'm an old timer and need to keep up with the new rules. Anything that helps with safety is a good thing.


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

Here is a photo of a new panel interior that is being installed by an electrical contractor. 
According to the print circuit 14,16 & 18 are designated to feed convenience outlets. I may have a hard time finding a handle tie for these breakers so it might be better to order a 3 pole 20. Thanks again for the help.


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## varmit (Apr 19, 2009)

With LED lighting and high speed switching in electronic equipment MWBCs are almost a thing of the past.


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## MotoGP1199 (Aug 11, 2014)

On the siemens P1 panels I have always used a 3 pole breaker. If those are NGB breakers this 3 pole handle tie should work https://www.cesco.com/Siemens-BQDHT3-Siemens-BQDHT3-Handle-Tie-With-Padlock-3-Pole/p1960700 but I have not used it before.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

From a job I did some improvements on during December of last year. 

I used a 3 phase load center to feed all the new circuits I installed. The top right hand side has 2 three pole breakers in there to handle two sets of cubicle furniture hookups.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

Easy said:


> Yes this is probably why. I'm an old timer and need to keep up with the new rules. Anything that helps with safety is a good thing.


It was a stupid rule change and helped nothing. That's why the other electrical contractor ignored it.


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

MotoGP1199 said:


> On the siemens P1 panels I have always used a 3 pole breaker. If those are NGB breakers this 3 pole handle tie should work https://www.cesco.com/Siemens-BQDHT3-Siemens-BQDHT3-Handle-Tie-With-Padlock-3-Pole/p1960700 but I have not used it before.


Such a deal only $43.00 ....:vs_mad:


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

macmikeman said:


> From a job I did some improvements on during December of last year.
> 
> I used a 3 phase load center to feed all the new circuits I installed. The top right hand side has 2 three pole breakers in there to handle two sets of cubicle furniture hookups.


Thanks for the help on this. Your makeup looks real nice in your panelboard. I could see some situations where a handle tie would be better than a common trip breaker. If you had to work on a lighting circuit just pull the handle tie, kill one breaker and then you would not have to go completely dark just to make a repair. Ha Ha... I wonder if they allow circuit breakers that are approved for switching, listed and marked SWD.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Easy said:


> Thanks for the help on this. Your makeup looks real nice in your panelboard. I could see some situations where a handle tie would be better than a common trip breaker. If you had to work on a lighting circuit just pull the handle tie, kill one breaker and then you would not have to go completely dark just to make a repair. Ha Ha... I wonder if they allow circuit breakers that are approved for switching, listed and marked SWD.



My offspring did the panel. I taught him about looping feeders when he first came to work with me, around 6 years ago, and we were working on a real panel that had 350's that day. He volunteered to come help me while he was on a short layoff between projects at his union job. I think he thinks that on my panels I always want a loop. Those feeders are only #4's. I didn't have the heart to tell him not to do that again.............


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## MotoGP1199 (Aug 11, 2014)

Easy said:


> MotoGP1199 said:
> 
> 
> > On the siemens P1 panels I have always used a 3 pole breaker. If those are NGB breakers this 3 pole handle tie should work https://www.cesco.com/Siemens-BQDHT3-Siemens-BQDHT3-Handle-Tie-With-Padlock-3-Pole/p1960700 but I have not used it before.
> ...


 cheaper than a 3 pole breaker but absolutely ridiculous for a single handle tie.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

I still install MWBC's and I don't use multi-pole breakers on them.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

No one should be toying with 3-phase MWBC who is not trained for safety.

Dumming down our trade is not wise.

Handle ties can be created by a 3-D printer.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MTW said:


> I still install MWBC's and I don't use multi-pole breakers on them.


I use handle ties, less that I have to stock.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> I use handle ties, less that I have to stock.


I see.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

HackWork said:


> I use handle ties, less that I have to stock.


What do you do with a/c or 240 appliance circuits?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> What do you do with a/c or 240 appliance circuits?


Those require 2-pole breaker‘s, as you know. I was only talking about multiwire branch circuits.

When I change out a panel, I often do it based off of a picture that the customer sent me. That picture will show me the 240 V loads like electric stoves or AC condensing units. So I will be sure to have those breakers, plus a small amount of others just in case.

But what I sometimes find is five or six multiwire branch circuits after I’m on the job changing the panel. So it’s easier to stock 50 cent handle ties than all those 2-pole 15 and 20 amp breakers.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Around here there are so many different panels it is a royal pita to keep stocked with all of them. We also try and get the brand before we get there but sometimes we don't know we are going to need breakers.

BTW, I knew you knew about the dp breakers- that why when you said that handle ties keep your stock down I was wondering how it did that when dp's are sometimes needed.


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

MotoGP1199 said:


> cheaper than a 3 pole breaker but absolutely ridiculous for a single handle tie.


12 gage THHN is about $00.14 per foot. With a 100 foot run it would be less money to add 2 neutrals than it would be to buy the handle tie. It might even be advantageous if you need to work on one circuit without shutting down the other 2.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

Easy said:


> 12 gage THHN is about $00.14 per foot. With a 100 foot run it would be less money to add 2 neutrals than it would be to buy the handle tie. It might even be advantageous if you need to work on one circuit without shutting down the other 2.


That's why this rule exists, to sell copper.


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## MotoGP1199 (Aug 11, 2014)

Easy said:


> MotoGP1199 said:
> 
> 
> > cheaper than a 3 pole breaker but absolutely ridiculous for a single handle tie.
> ...


True, but if the wire Is already there and connected my time is going to cost a lot more than $40. Compared to what it would take to pull the wire, open up boxes, and connect everything. At 14 cents per foot(200' total) your cost is $28 before labor. If you haven't pulled the wire yet then I would just add two neutrals and call it A-day.

Edit: I also run multi wire branch circuits sometimes for the safety aspect on boilers or equipment. They require multiple 120v circuits, And it's nice if a circulation pump trips the whole boiler shuts off and doesn't try to run. Insted of only relying on a flow switch.


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## B-Nabs (Jun 4, 2014)

Easy said:


> 12 gage THHN is about $00.14 per foot. With a 100 foot run it would be less money to add 2 neutrals than it would be to buy the handle tie. It might even be advantageous if you need to work on one circuit without shutting down the other 2.


Yes but if you're running a large amount of circuits you need bigger/more pipes which adds up and also takes up more space. I share neutrals whenever possible because it's no less safe when done properly and makes for a more streamlined installation. 

Sent from my SM-G975W using Tapatalk


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

MotoGP1199 said:


> Edit: I also run multi wire branch circuits sometimes for the safety aspect on boilers or equipment. They require multiple 120v circuits, And it's nice if a circulation pump trips the whole boiler shuts off and doesn't try to run. Insted of only relying on a flow switch.


That's a good idea, kind of uses the breaker common trip as an interlock. 

:thumbsup:


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Easy said:


> 12 gage THHN is about $00.14 per foot. With a 100 foot run it would be less money to add 2 neutrals than it would be to buy the handle tie. It might even be advantageous if you need to work on one circuit without shutting down the other 2.





B-Nabs said:


> Yes but if you're running a large amount of circuits you need bigger/more pipes which adds up and also takes up more space. I share neutrals whenever possible because it's no less safe when done properly and makes for a more streamlined installation.


Both good points, if the savings of neutrals keeps you from tipping from 3/4" to 1" or etc. that's of value. Of course if you avoid shared neutrals, you are safe from handle tie gouging, AND from the dreaded harmonics.


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

"Yes but if you're running a large amount of circuits you need bigger/more pipes which adds up and also takes up more space. I share neutrals whenever possible because it's no less safe when done properly and makes for a more streamlined installation."

*I was just brain storming this scenario. I think it would be totally impractical to run multiple neutrals. They would need to be paired and probably require wire markers just to keep the inspector happy. I think it would be safer with just one neutral.*

"True, but if the wire Is already there and connected my time is going to cost a lot more than $40. Compared to what it would take to pull the wire, open up boxes, and connect everything. At 14 cents per foot(200' total) your cost is $28 before labor. If you haven't pulled the wire yet then I would just add two neutrals and call it A-day."

*I know .. It would be way more labor both at the point of connection and at the panel when you did the makeup. Not to mention 3 spools of white wire added to your wire dolly when you had to pull wire.* 

"Both good points, if the savings of neutrals keeps you from tipping from 3/4" to 1" or etc. that's of value. Of course if you avoid shared neutrals, you are safe from handle tie gouging, AND from the dreaded harmonics."

*It would help with harmonics. Good point. I’m looking at this from a maintenance stand point. It would really disrupt operations in an office setting if you had to shut down 3 circuits just to replace a ballast or receptacle. If you had to you could remove the handle tie and shut off just one breaker do your repair and replace the handle tie when you are done. The only downside to having one neutral would be in a case where you were feeding computers. Open or floating neutrals can really damage computers or electronics in general. Having individual neutrals would at least save the equipment on the other 2 circuits. 
*


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

When it comes to lighting and multiwire circuits, a lot of the shutdown all three circuits issues have been mitigated by the quick connects either provided by the manufacturer or added in to the light fixture by subsequent installer of new led light equipment. You all install the little orange disconnects each time you change out a ballast or driver right? ............... Of course you do, silly of me to bring this up..............................


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## B-Nabs (Jun 4, 2014)

splatz said:


> Both good points, if the savings of neutrals keeps you from tipping from 3/4" to 1" or etc. that's of value. Of course if you avoid shared neutrals, you are safe from handle tie gouging, AND from the dreaded harmonics.


I realize this is the NEC section, however as a Canadian I am fortunate that our code does not coddle our electricians by requiring handle ties for MWBCs. 

Sent from my SM-G975W using Tapatalk


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

B-Nabs said:


> I realize this is the NEC section, however as a Canadian I am fortunate that our code does not coddle our electricians by requiring handle ties for MWBCs.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975W using Tapatalk


That's ok with us. We give mulligans in order to keep things fair.

1USD =1.42160CAD
1 CAD = 0.703432 USD


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

Easy said:


> Good point. I’m looking at this from a maintenance stand point. It would really disrupt operations in an office setting if you had to shut down 3 circuits just to replace a ballast or receptacle. If you had to you could *remove the handle tie and shut off just one breaker* do your repair and replace the handle tie when you are done.



In some ways that can be more dangerous than working live.
There can be current on the neutral, and since "the breaker is off" it gives the impression you can't get shocked.

@macmikeman suggestion of the disconnect at the fixture would be best.


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

macmikeman said:


> That's ok with us. We give mulligans in order to keep things fair.
> 
> 1USD =1.42160CAD
> 1 CAD = 0.703432 USD



Mebbe .... but a roll of loonies to the head hurts more in CAN $$ :biggrin:


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

emtnut said:


> In some ways that can be more dangerous than working live.
> There can be current on the neutral, and since "the breaker is off" it gives the impression you can't get shocked.
> 
> @macmikeman suggestion of the disconnect at the fixture would be best.


Yes so true. I was being a bit macho in my statement. When ever possible a multi wire branch should be shut down completely before attempting to make repairs. Spices / wire nuts & lever-nuts alike can come lose and if anything inside that JB was still hot you run a very good risk of getting shocked. 
Offices, labs or what ever. Kill the power to all sources including foreign voltages and make sure your safe.


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

I can tell you that the EC's that work regularly in the jurisdiction I work for, They all use handle ties or multipole breakers ! They know they will get the red for not doing so.


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

I have seen a lab full of VERY expensive test equipment go up in magic smoke before.
Connection to neutral bus came off and bus was not bonded to ground due to being a sub panel.
All test equipment became voltage dividers and put a little voltage here a lot there, sparks here a lot of smoke there. Six figures of damage.

Yes I know just an open neutral can do the same thing but this is an example for people that lift a neutral on a MWBC


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## Forge Boyz (Nov 7, 2014)

manchestersparky said:


> I can tell you that the EC's that work regularly in the jurisdiction I work for, They all use handle ties or multipole breakers ! They know they will get the red for not doing so.


And I just recently had an inspector ask why there were two breakers marked Master bath receptacle with a handle tie between. Had I ignored the handle tie requirement I wonder if he would have noticed.

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