# Whats the REAL difference between union and non union?



## henderson14

I'm in an apprenticeship and most people buy into all the propaganda they tell us but I don't. I do understand why they do it, to make the union stronger, but still. So anyone work with both non union and union on the commercial side?

1. How much different is the pay and benefits difference really? Especially in non-right to work states. From what I know we get far better benefits and better pay.

2. Does non union get more hours and less layoffs?

3. Is non union forced to work harder and faster. Do they treat you worse?

4. if you compared a good non union and union company are the worker skill levels that much different?

5. Isn't non union mostly mexicans?


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## Bkessler

Great question from the apprentice wanna be PM, the answer to number 5 is a definite yes amigo.


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## BBQ

This ain't going to end well


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## robnj772

The truth is the answer to all 5 of your questions is no.

I worked union,got laid off,worked non union and now own my own non union shop.

But just wait, the pro union trolls will see this,grandstand, pump their chests and call names.

Now if you think you have seen propaganda, you ain't seen nothing yet.

This thread will end badly and very fast I predict


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## brian john

henderson14 said:


> I'm in an apprenticeship and most people buy into all the propaganda they tell us but I don't. I do understand why they do it, to make the union stronger, but still. So anyone work with both non union and union on the commercial side?
> 
> 1. How much different is the pay and benefits difference really? Especially in non-right to work states. From what I know we get far better benefits and better pay.


From very different to equal, depends on skill level, the owner, the market in that area and a lot of other variables in the market place.



> 2. Does non union get more hours and less layoffs?


That seems to be the standard line, but I have never read any studies to support the theory.



> 3. Is non union forced to work harder and faster. Do they treat you worse?


No and NO in my experience, I have seem bigger A-holes on large union projects than I ever met in my life open shop. BUT my open shop experience was mostly small shop. The one big open shop job I did everyone was friends and worked like any other project I have worked in 40 years.



> 4. if you compared a good non union and union company are the worker skill levels that much different?


Man to man no, BUT at least in this area, the best of the best are generally union. That is because they were courted by union contractors to get the necessary man power when work was at it's peak. They received over scale, better vacations and other stuff.



> 5. Isn't non union mostly mexicans?


Once again in this area, track homes ECs seem to be heavy with Hispanics, but basic MC cable build outs open shop and union are a mix of both. Upper end electricians (specialist) are heavily lilly white honky's.


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## captkirk

It really doesnt matter if its Union or Non. It really depends on the company you work for... There are good and bad for both sides..


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## miller_elex

robnj772 said:


> But just wait, the pro union trolls will see this,grandstand, pump their chests and call names.
> 
> Now if you think you have seen propaganda, you ain't seen nothing yet.
> 
> This thread will end badly and very fast I predict


Everybody's mind is made up on this issue, it's a non-debater.

Rob's view is what is best for himself, is best for everyone, and that includes everyone, not just Rob.

I think the best situation is to be in a locale where the union has good, but not overwhelming marketshare. This keeps wages across the board above the national average, and ensures electricians don't get excluded or harassed.


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## B4T

The Union schooling is or was the best part of learning the trade..


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## BBQ

miller_elex said:


> and ensures electricians don't get excluded or harassed.


Actually from my side of it that describes what the union does, it excludes and harasses.


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## Southeast Power

Really only one thing to say about this thread and where its going:

Our Father, who art in heaven,
hallowed be thy name.
Thy Kingdom come, 
thy will be done, 
on earth as it is in heaven
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our trespasses,
as we forgive those who trespass against us. 
And lead us not into temptation, 
but deliver us from evil. 
For thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory. for ever and ever. Amen


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## nitro71

In this economy if you box yourself into one mindset you might have it really rough. As an apprentice I'd say go union if you can get in. You'll work more and get better benifets doing it. As a journeyman I'd say work for whomever is highering..


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## GDK 13

Bkessler said:


> Great question from the apprentice wanna be PM, the answer to number 5 is a definite yes amigo.


Non-union electricians are "MOSTLY MEXICANS" that's ****in bull****, and everyone here knows that. give me a break.


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## 480sparky

*Q: Whats the REAL difference between union and non union?:

A: Some of us carry cards, some of us don't.
*


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## RUSSIAN

1. How much different is the pay and benefits difference really? Especially in non-right to work states. From what I know we get far better benefits and better pay.
-I've worked both and I make a far better living working union, but that is very dependent on the market, the shop and your ability to negotiate. 

2. Does non union get more hours and less layoffs?
-Again, this is very dependent on location. In this area you will probably get more ot in a large union shop especially in a good economy, but you might work more weeks in a year in a weak economy in a small non-union shop.

3. Is non union forced to work harder and faster. Do they treat you worse?
-IMHO the union electrician's around here are having to bust a$$ to keep their jobs and high pay/bennies. I haven't worked open in years but I suspect it's the same. Only during booms will you see much slacking(around here anyway, and I'm not condoning it)

4. if you compared a good non union and union company are the worker skill levels that much different?
-In my experience the union guys are better trained.

5. Isn't non union mostly mexicans?
-uuhhmm...


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## sparky105

21 years as a union electrician 

Paid very well but I earn it I show up I do my job to the best of my ability and I stay employeed. That is all you need to do it isn't brain surgery. 
Don't get all wrapped up in the union verses non union. It is a job. Do the work take the pay go home and play with the kids.These guys that bash and ridicule non union trades men are bigots don't get sucked in it is what will get you on the black list as a trouble maker. It in my opion is a debate that has no right answer.


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## sparky970

henderson14 said:


> I'm in an apprenticeship and most people buy into all the propaganda they tell us but I don't. I do understand why they do it, to make the union stronger, but still. So anyone work with both non union and union on the commercial side?
> 
> 1. How much different is the pay and benefits difference really? Especially in non-right to work states. From what I know we get far better benefits and better pay.
> 
> 2. Does non union get more hours and less layoffs?
> 
> 3. Is non union forced to work harder and faster. Do they treat you worse?
> 
> 4. if you compared a good non union and union company are the worker skill levels that much different?
> 
> 5. Isn't non union mostly mexicans?[/QUO


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## nitro71

One other difference I failed to mention is that union trained electricians think they are more knowledgeable than non union trained electricians. But for the most part if you ask them a code question they are clueless because they don't reference the code book or carry one with them or study the code after getting out of school.


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## knowshorts

I vote ground up.


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## Jlarson

BBQ said:


> This ain't going to end well


Thanks, now I don't have to say it. :laughing:

Just like what Capt. Kirk said it's mostly the company you work for. Each side has good and bad points. I know personally I fit in better on the non union side.

And on the skill level between the sides, I've seen really sharp, dumber than a brick and everywhere in between on both sides.


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## HARRY304E

knowshorts said:


> I vote ground up.


I vote Ground down:laughing:


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## Jlarson

knowshorts said:


> I vote ground up.





HARRY304E said:


> I vote Ground down:laughing:












I win...


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## HARRY304E

Jlarson said:


> I win...


 :laughing:
Now thats a "PC" recptacle:laughing::laughing:


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## HARRY304E

Jlarson said:


> I win...


Will that fit in a single gang box?:laughing:


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## Jlarson

As far as I know it will, I never installed one.


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## brian john

sparky105 said:


> 21 years as a union electrician
> 
> Paid very well but I earn it I show up I do my job to the best of my ability and I stay employeed. That is all you need to do it isn't brain surgery.
> Don't get all wrapped up in the union verses non union. It is a job. Do the work take the pay go home and play with the kids.These guys that bash and ridicule non union trades men are bigots don't get sucked in it is what will get you on the black list as a trouble maker. It in my opion is a debate that has no right answer.


You almost had me and I was going to agree 100% into you fell into a trap you could not avoid doing from all your training.

You did what you said you weren't going to do, placing you in the category of bigots!


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## Brother Noah1

To me the unions were formed to protect the workers(union and nonunion alike) in order for us all to be able to ply our trade in a safe manner and support our house holds without any sort of retaliation(in an ideal situation) As posted many union members do stray from the code book out of lack of necessity(yes also some are lazy) as many union jobs do not require us to. The union does supply us with ample retirement and or H&W benefits besides a higher scale in most cases than the nonunion sector.As far as being out of work it relies on the economic situation,your personal work ethics and or the ability of the contractor to earn profits(union or nonunion)
In reality we are all supporting ourselves and or our families within the electrical field of work, we have the same problems and issues we deal with daily. Instead of using energy to separate ourselves from each other we should help each other strive for a better way of life.


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## 480sparky

Jlarson said:


> I win...


Not yet, you don't:




































​


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## HARRY304E

480sparky said:


> Not yet, you don't:


 :laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## Jlarson

Dammit... :laughing:


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## McClary’s Electrical

jrannis said:


> Really only one thing to say about this thread and where its going:
> 
> Our Father, who art in heaven,
> hallowed be thy name.
> Thy Kingdom come,
> thy will be done,
> on earth as it is in heaven
> Give us this day our daily bread.
> And forgive us our trespasses,
> as we forgive those who trespass against us.
> And lead us not into temptation,
> but deliver us from evil.
> For thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory. for ever and ever. Amen


 




Give me an EFFING break.

Can we get some seperation of church and ET? Godamit


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## Southeast Power

mcclary's electrical said:


> Give me an EFFING break.
> 
> Can we get some seperation of church and ET? Godamit


I dont think you can be an Anarchist and a Constitutionalist. You might have to choose one. :laughing:


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## Jlarson

jrannis said:


> I dont think you can be an Anarchist and a Constitutionalist. You might have to choose one. :laughing:



No one told me this. :no::laughing:


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## 480sparky

Jlarson said:


> No one told me this. :no::laughing:



Someone just did. :yes:


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## cmac1

Mentality and attitude ,sometimes it's right sometimes it's wrong.


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## oldman

the biggest difference is a sense of entitlement


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## Southeast Power

oldman said:


> the biggest difference is a sense of entitlement


I go to school for four years, I have 10,000 hours OJT, I get a license, I work hard, get dirty and go home tired and you pay me.
Sounds like America to me not entitlement. :thumbsup:


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## McClary’s Electrical

jrannis said:


> I dont think you can be an Anarchist and a Constitutionalist. You might have to choose one. :laughing:


 

Now THAT'S a good one:laughing: You made my morning laughing at that


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## sparky105

brian john said:


> You almost had me and I was going to agree 100% into you fell into a trap you could not avoid doing from all your training.
> 
> You did what you said you weren't going to do, placing you in the category of bigots!


Ok I'm missing something here Brian explain


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## oldman

jrannis said:


> I go to school for four years, I have 10,000 hours OJT, I get a license, I work hard, get dirty and go home tired and you pay me.
> Sounds like America to me not entitlement. :thumbsup:


smug ignorance fits you well:thumbsup:


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## BBQ

jrannis said:


> I go to school for four years, I have 10,000 hours OJT, I get a license, I work hard, get dirty and go home tired and you pay me.
> Sounds like America to me not entitlement. :thumbsup:


The entitlement part begins when after you do all that hard work you start to believe you get to dictate what your own worth is to the market.


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## Southeast Power

BBQ said:


> The entitlement part begins when after you do all that hard work you start to believe you get to dictate what your own worth is to the market.


I know!! That's why I am a contractor:thumbup:

God Bless America.


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## oldman

BBQ said:


> The entitlement part begins when after you do all that hard work you start to believe you get to dictate what your own worth is to the market.


no, the entitlement part comes when you believe that you own segments of work...that you don't have to compete....then the picketing...


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## miller_elex

BBQ said:


> The entitlement part begins when after you do all that hard work you start to believe you get to dictate what your own worth is to the market.


Its not one man dictating, its many men, collaborating. Which is worse? Many electricians here collaborating to raise the wage, or the business roundtable collaborating to send the good jobs overseas?

You cons get upset by the union, but I know you're more upset by some punk doing a service change for $900.


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## BBQ

jrannis said:


> I know!! That's why I am a contractor:thumbup:


Often respected just ahead of ambulance chasers. :laughing:




> God Bless America.


Yeah, 'God' (what ever the hell that is) is why America is a great country. :no::no:


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## 480sparky

BBQ said:


> The entitlement part begins when after you do all that hard work you start to believe you get to dictate what your own worth is to the market.


And then the next generation thinks they're entitled to the same pay as you, but without all that hard work.


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## Southeast Power

BBQ said:


> Often respected just ahead of ambulance chasers. :laughing:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, 'God' (what ever the hell that is) is why America is a great country. :no::no:



Bob ???


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## BBQ

jrannis said:


> Bob ???



:laughing:


I cannot deny it ............ or hide it. :laughing:


Not really new


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## wwilson174

robnj772 said:


> The truth is the answer to all 5 of your questions is no.
> 
> I worked union,got laid off,worked non union and now own my own non union shop.
> 
> But just wait, the pro union trolls will see this,grandstand, pump their chests and call names.
> 
> Now if you think you have seen propaganda, you ain't seen nothing yet.
> 
> This thread will end badly and very fast I predict


You may call me a rat or a "right wing nut case" but that still doesn't change the fact that you have your head up your ass 


















This is something new; pre-emptive insults ! It sets the tone of any response !


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## Southeast Power

BBQ said:


> Often respected just ahead of ambulance chasers. :laughing:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, 'God' (what ever the hell that is) is why America is a great country. :no::no:


OK then, God, Guts and guns ...


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## McClary’s Electrical

jrannis said:


> OK then, God, Guts and guns ...


 

At least two of the three are real.


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## Southeast Power

mcclary's electrical said:


> At least two of the three are real.


If Im wrong, no big deal. 
If you are wrong, you are F**KED!


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## miller_elex

jrannis said:


> If Im wrong, no big deal.
> If you are wrong, you are F**KED!


Great. I'm looking forward to getting a piece.

My bud says I should hit up the tnaboard. But I've never paid for it in homeport, so it would be awkward.


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## John Valdes

In this order.

1) Union
2) Non-Union
3) People doing service changes for less money than number (2).


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## drsparky

The big difference is I get stupid junk mail from *Union Plus Credit Card* once a month. They can't take a hint that I don't want the stupid card.


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## miller_elex

John Valdes said:


> In this order.
> 
> 1) Union
> 2) Non-Union
> 3) People doing service changes for less money than number (2).


 
I'll take 'Electrical Contracting for 800, Alex.'

Trebek: 'Unemployed union hands?'

Me: 'That would be #3, Alex.' :laughing:


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## Jabrois

truly its sad. Union employees buy into the marketing philosophy this fraternity is some how justified and American. 

I say Let capitalism dictate who to hire, which companies succeed, and labor cost. After all this country was founded and built on the principle of free business competition. 


Why would I ever pay someone more than they are willing to work for? 

Union rep report replied: because you have to.......


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## HackWork

Jabrois said:


> truly its sad. Union employees buy into the marketing philosophy this fraternity is some how justified and American.
> 
> I say Let capitalism dictate who to hire, which companies succeed, and labor cost. After all this country was founded and built on the principle of free business competition.
> 
> 
> Why would I ever pay someone more than they are willing to work for?
> 
> Union rep report replied: because you have to.......


This country was built on our Constitution, which guarantees our right to assemble.

If you don't like it, don't sign your company with the union, it's really that simple. 

Nice first post, BTW. Bumping a 7 year old thread to spread your vitriol and ignorance.


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## zac

Is Jabrois a black French name? 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## TGGT

Jabrois said:


> truly its sad. Union employees buy into the marketing philosophy this fraternity is some how justified and American.
> 
> I say Let capitalism dictate who to hire, which companies succeed, and labor cost. After all this country was founded and built on the principle of free business competition.
> 
> 
> Why would I ever pay someone more than they are willing to work for?
> 
> Union rep report replied: because you have to.......


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## Signal1

Jabrois said:


> truly its sad. Union employees buy into the marketing philosophy this fraternity is some how justified and American.
> 
> I say Let capitalism dictate who to hire, which companies succeed, and labor cost. After all this country was founded and built on the principle of free business competition.
> 
> 
> Why would I ever pay someone more than they are willing to work for?
> 
> Union rep report replied: because you have to.......


1000% BS post.


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## Helmut

TGGT said:


>



The right to terrorize and inflict damage on to other contractors, who freely choose to run their business, their way....

And the right to disrupt innocent people and their lives, who have no interest in your employement, and inflict economic harm upon them....


Are not found in that statement.


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## Southeast Power

Jabrois said:


> truly its sad. Union employees buy into the marketing philosophy this fraternity is some how justified and American.
> 
> I say Let capitalism dictate who to hire, which companies succeed, and labor cost. After all this country was founded and built on the principle of free business competition.
> 
> 
> Why would I ever pay someone more than they are willing to work for?
> 
> Union rep report replied: because you have to.......


It's not that big of a deal for small work.
For bigger projects, I know that I can put in a call for 10 guys with one phone call and they will all pretty much have the same background as I do, I'll know some of them or at least know someone that knows them.
If you are not used to working like that, don't get involved with it.
Working Union and now being able to hire other union electricians and apprentices is an advantage for me right now.

I think it would suck to have to play Craigslist roulette or get people from the rent a drunk services.


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## TGGT

Helmut said:


> The right to terrorize and inflict damage on to other contractors, who freely choose to run their business, their way....
> 
> And the right to disrupt innocent people and their lives, who have no interest in your employement, and inflict economic harm upon them....
> 
> 
> Are not found in that statement.


So much hyperbole. 

You know you do not have the privilege to run a business "your way", and especially not in our industry. If you don't want to be concerned about the rights and privileges of other people I would suggest you do not hire them or do business with them.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## brian john

This should be a fair balance between contractors and employees.

If SOME contractors weren't such F'ing Scrooges then the working relationship would be an environment where unions were not needed.

If SOME workers weren't such slackers, troublemakers, thieves, ETC. then contractors would not be such A-holes.

So you need to establish a balance where the two parties work together, unfortunately when there is a strong economy SOME union members go to extreme measures and try and wield the upper hand.


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## drsparky

"non"


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## brian john

drsparky said:


> "non"


Some people prefer NONE!


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## Chris1971

Jabrois said:


> truly its sad. Union employees buy into the marketing philosophy this fraternity is some how justified and American.
> 
> I say Let capitalism dictate who to hire, which companies succeed, and labor cost. After all this country was founded and built on the principle of free business competition.
> 
> 
> Why would I ever pay someone more than they are willing to work for?
> 
> Union rep report replied: because you have to.......




Who are you?:whistling2::laughing:


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## gnuuser

I was a union member for 31 years (now retired)
and i have seen my fair share of both pros and cons of it.
yes some unions use strong arm tactics Im not denying it one bit.
and ive seen some turds protected who should have been shoveled out the door.
the biggest truth of the matter is that if you have a decent employer or are a decent employer you have no need for a union and no fear of one either.

more often than not i have seen management pull many underhanded and quite often illegal acts in effort to save money/ and procure higher bonuses.
with unions you have better opportunities for training, but that is not a sign-cure! Good employers are those who see the benefit and can envision the higher R.O.I. (return on investment) they will get from giving their workers proper training 
you can also add the union insurance and pension plans are great.

its your choice to go union or not Im not recruiting 
so dont take anyones opinion as fact without thoroughly checking things out yourself


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## chicken steve

TGGT said:


> So much hyperbole.
> 
> You know you do not have the privilege to run a business "your way", and especially not in our industry. If you don't want to be concerned about the rights and privileges of other people I would suggest you do not hire them or do business with them.


:no::jester::no:

*And now the the AHJ's here And so I face the final curtain
My friend I'll say it clear I'll state my case of which I'm certain

I've lived this trade that's full , puffin' my chest for every payday
And more, much more than this I did it my way

Red tags I've had a few But then they caught too few to mention
I did what I had to do , And even wrote my own exceptions

I slept through each code update , then threw the book out on the highway
And more, much more than this ,I did it my way*
:shifty:
~C(_w/apologies to 'ol blue eyes_)S~


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## OldMasterTech

Southeast Power said:


> Really only one thing to say about this thread and where its going:
> 
> Our Father, who art in heaven,
> hallowed be thy name.
> Thy Kingdom come,
> thy will be done,
> on earth as it is in heaven
> Give us this day our daily bread.
> And forgive us our trespasses,
> as we forgive those who trespass against us.
> And lead us not into temptation,
> but deliver us from evil.
> For thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory. for ever and ever. Amen


That is the King James version, not the Marine Corps version.......


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## MechanicalDVR

OldMasterTech said:


> That is the King James version, not the Marine Corps version.......


This one:


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## EWizard

My oldest brother was IBEW brother. I am not. I should have joined but joined the Navy and spent 12 years there. The difference between union and non-union is TRAINING & SAFETY. There is just no comparison to Union training and Union safety. Electrical work is a matter of public health. Can you say FIRE if its not right. This is not a Rah-Rah comment. Its an honest answer to your question. Being an IBEW member can mean a good life for you and your family.


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