# Service upgrade/ moving panel



## Hippie (May 12, 2011)

Customer wants to upgrade from 100a fuse panel to 200a and to move it from its existing location in a closet to the outside wall. Plan is to put a j box in the closet and extend the circuits over to the new service. Will this require afci breakers since the branch circuits will be modified? Also since the dryer and range will be extended will they have to be upgraded to 3 conductor cable?


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## NacBooster29 (Oct 25, 2010)

You would technically be extending the circuits, so my interpretation is that afci would be required. As far as stove and laundry circuit goes would you be replacing the entire circuit, or referring a 2 wire ckt with a 3 Wire? If you were refeeding thay makes no particular sense. I would ask your ahj about those ckts in question. Maybe he has a different take on them.


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## Hippie (May 12, 2011)

NacBooster29 said:


> You would technically be extending the circuits, so my interpretation is that afci would be required. As far as stove and laundry circuit goes would you be replacing the entire circuit, or referring a 2 wire ckt with a 3 Wire? If you were refeeding thay makes no particular sense. I would ask your ahj about those ckts in question. Maybe he has a different take on them.


I was thinking as far as the dryer and range either extending them with 2 wire or replacing them entirely with 3 wire. A while ago I worked on a house where another contractor did the service and actually did extend the dryer ckt. with a 10/3, leaving the neutral capped in the j box. The inspector questioned why there was 3 wire in the panel with a 3 prong rec on the other end. (I had replaced the old outlet with a new 3 prong one) he didn't have a problem with it which leads me to believe it would be ok to extend those with 2 wire but I'm not sure, I am going to call and check just wanted to know before I go all the way to look at it and not get it because of the extra cost of replacing those circuits and troubleshooting possible afci issues


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

FWIW, concerning the circuit for the range and dryer...

*250.140 Frames of Ranges and Clothes Dryers.​*​​​​Frames
of electric ranges, wall-mounted ovens, counter-mounted
cooking units, clothes dryers, and outlet or junction boxes
that are part of the circuit for these appliances shall be
connected to the equipment grounding conductor in the
manner specified by 250.134 or 250.138.​
_Exception: For existing branch-circuit installations only_
_where an equipment grounding conductor is not present in_
_the outlet or junction box, the frames of electric ranges,_
_wall-mounted ovens, counter-mounted cooking units,_
_clothes dryers, and outlet or junction boxes that are part of_
_the circuit for these appliances shall be permitted to be_
_connected to the grounded circuit conductor if all the following_
_conditions are met._
_(1) The supply circuit is 120/240-volt, single-phase, 3-wire;_
_or 208Y/120-volt derived from a 3-phase, 4-wire, wyeconnected_
_system._
_(2) The grounded conductor is not smaller than 10 AWG_
_copper or 8 AWG aluminum._
_(3) The grounded conductor is insulated, or the grounded_
_conductor is uninsulated and part of a Type SE service entrance_
_cable and the branch circuit originates at the_
_service equipment._
_(4) Grounding contacts of receptacles furnished as part of_​_the equipment are bonded to the equipment._

Pete


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## Sparky J (May 17, 2011)

Don't know where in Va you are but check with the AHJ if we do a panel change we are not required to put in AFCI protection. Now if you are extending circuits to move the panel out of the closet that is why I'd say double check with AHJ.
About the dryer and range if possible upgrade to 4 wire. Or if left original it can be three wire.


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

In Jersey the only time you need AFCI is new construction or a reno that goes beyond the old footprint... If its just a bump up (add a level) not needed.. Only the new areas with new foundation... And never in a service upgrade.. I still havent installed an arc fault breaker...


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## 19kilosparky984 (Sep 14, 2011)

captkirk said:


> In Jersey the only time you need AFCI is new construction or a reno that goes beyond the old footprint... If its just a bump up (add a level) not needed.. Only the new areas with new foundation... And never in a service upgrade.. I still havent installed an arc fault breaker...


If you are adding a level anything on the new level needs AFCI.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

19kilosparky984 said:


> If you are adding a level anything on the new level needs AFCI.


I thought the same thing - and you are IMO correct - but I just finished an add-a-level and I did not use any AFCI. The inspection passed no - problem. 

To the OP, I think you would be best to send an email or a letter to the inspector to find out. Ever since last year's mishap with an inspector if I'm not 100% certain about an installation I take pictures and use a word processor to describe whats going on and what U propose to do. 

And remember, people don't plan to fail, they fail to plan.


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## 19kilosparky984 (Sep 14, 2011)

Magnettica said:


> I thought the same thing - and you are IMO correct - but I just finished an add-a-level and I did not use any AFCI. The inspection passed no - problem.
> 
> To the OP, I think you would be best to send an email or a letter to the inspector to find out. Ever since last year's mishap with an inspector if I'm not 100% certain about an installation I take pictures and use a word processor to describe whats going on and what U propose to do.
> 
> And remember, people don't plan to fail, they fail to plan.


Just because the job passed doesn't mean the inspector was correct.

The letter that was sent out by Susan says nothing about footprint. Its rather black and white. In the existing house they are not needed but in the addition they are. 

How is adding a level to a home considered the existing house and not an addition?


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## Sparky J (May 17, 2011)

19kilosparky984 said:


> If you are adding a level anything on the new level needs AFCI.


Here in Northern Va they are still using the 2005 AFCI rule even though they are in the 2008 code as of march I think (that's the adoption date of the 08). So we follow 05 rules for placement which is cool.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

19kw sparky, is this the letter you're referring to? NJ AFCI rules.


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## 19kilosparky984 (Sep 14, 2011)

Magnettica said:


> 19kw sparky, is this the letter you're referring to? NJ AFCI rules.


Yes.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

> However, an addition to an existing building is new construction. The addition only is required to comply with the 2008 NEC. Work in the existing building continues to be required to comply with NEC/2005. For dwelling units, AFCI for the addition will be required only if a new branch circuit is provided. It is important to remember that existing circuits in the existing dwelling may continue to be used.


Seems clear to me. :whistling2:


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

19kilosparky984 said:


> If you are adding a level anything on the new level needs AFCI.


NO you dont... and i got it straight from Susan Borrecks mouth... along with my CEU instructor this summer... I didnt believe him so i called her... TRUST ME only in parts of a new foundation... Add a levels stay in the foundation... Its now 2012 and i still havent installed one single AFCI... Its about to change because i am wiring a new 4500 sq home in Teneack NJ but...trust me.. You can add all the new circuits you want to in a add a level without afci... Trust me, ive done it...


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## 19kilosparky984 (Sep 14, 2011)

captkirk said:


> NO you dont... and i got it straight from Susan Borrecks mouth... along with my CEU instructor this summer... I didnt believe him so i called her... TRUST ME only in parts of a new foundation... Add a levels stay in the foundation... Its now 2012 and i still havent installed one single AFCI... Its about to change because i am wiring a new 4500 sq home in Teneack NJ but...trust me.. You can add all the new circuits you want to in a add a level without afci... Trust me, ive done it...


What kind of drugs are you on?

I don't trust you at all. I don't know where you came up with that but did you read the thing Ron posted?

They started out using the word footprint but then issued the letter because someone tried to say that adding a level was inside the footprint. That was what was explained in my ceu class,the instructor is on the board.

I am beyond baffled that someone who possesses a license would even think that adding a level wasn't considered an addition.

Your just trolling,it's ok we all do it from time to time.


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*?*

Your getting into a ratsnest on that one. 

Have you cash price 

Have your inspected price (I'd add $500 + any afci's you may have to add)


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## Hippie (May 12, 2011)

Cletis said:


> Your getting into a ratsnest on that one.
> 
> Have you cash price
> 
> Have your inspected price (I'd add $500 + any afci's you may have to add)


Can't it has to be inspected entire service is being replaced


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