# Canadian Code 12-3030 question



## gardiner (Sep 25, 2007)

One of these days I would love to read something in a Code Book that I didn't need a lawyer to tell me what it doesn't mean.

In trying to understanding 12-3030 (Conductors in boxes, cabinets or fittings) Section one (a) (b) and (c) the terms and/or after each subrule has been removed over the last couple of cycles thus I believe allowing the rules as per the appendix "C" on the "Organization and Rules of Procedure" 

My reading of Appendix C section C11.27 makes me think as the word "or" appears in the second from the last subrule then we only have to meet one of the three subrules and not two of the three. 

Is this correct? Any help would be apprieciated.


----------



## BCSparkyGirl (Aug 20, 2009)

You must satisfy sub rule a & b, or you must satisfy sub rule c. It just depends on your situation.


----------



## gardiner (Sep 25, 2007)

I can see where your getting that from the way the 12-3030 is written I just can't see it when you bring C11.27 into the mix. It's been a while since I had to deal with Canadain code and I understand things change.

To me C11.27 
"Except for the last Subrule or item, each Subrule or item in a listing shall end with a semi colon. The penultimate Subrule or item shall end with either an "and" or an "or"."
means if the second from last subrule ends with an "or" which 12-3030 does then the or expands to all the subrules. If it ended with an "and" then two of the three subrules would come into effect. 

Where this is going is modular Office Furiture, Movable (or Modular) walls with both "IG" and "utility power" which would have the two sorcues of power going into one office furniture base feed ( which would comply with section "b" ) rather then a different feed entering a cluster of furniture each time it alternates from a utility receptacle to an IG receptacle. 
For anyone in Ontario that wants to join in the reference there is 12-3032 and C12.27.
I'm looking for opinions and reasoning if possible.


----------



## Mike_586 (Mar 24, 2009)

gardiner said:


> For anyone in Ontario that wants to join in the reference there is 12-3032 and C12.27.
> I'm looking for opinions and reasoning if possible.


What is it about 12-3032 you don't get and did you mean C11.27? I don't see a C12.27 in the 09 book.

Is it the notwithstanding clause?


----------



## gardiner (Sep 25, 2007)

Check Appendix C which is for the "Organization and Rules of Procedure" the section on "Code Format and Terminology" according to this a clause ends with a semi colon which subrule 1 does then subrule 2 uses the "or" to me this means you can basically do it if you meet either 1,2,or 3


----------



## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

It could'nt be any simpler.:blink:


----------



## gardiner (Sep 25, 2007)

oldtimer said:


> It could'nt be any simpler.:blink:


Any simpler then what? So far I have heard one opinion on what the code is saying which I respect, I don’t agree but I respect the way she took it. That said I am looking for more opinions. Which means what do you understand the meaning of the rule to be when you take the code panels rules of Organization for the book into consideration?


----------



## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

Sarcasm !!! I mean it is complicated. If you ask ten people to explain it,you will get ten different explanations.That is why :blink::blink::blink:


----------



## gardiner (Sep 25, 2007)

Sorry getting a little edgey I really need the weekend


----------



## sparky105 (Sep 29, 2009)

just meet ab and c and your covered :laughing:


----------



## Mike_586 (Mar 24, 2009)

EDIT: 


gardiner said:


> My reading of Appendix C section C11.27 makes me think as the word "or" appears in the second from the last subrule then we only have to meet one of the three subrules and not two of the three.
> 
> Is this correct? Any help would be apprieciated.


That is exactly what its saying. In 12-3030 under subrule 1 its a or b or c. 

c11.27 is pretty much telling you that every sequence of subrules ending with a semicolon only the penultimate (the second to last) subrule will end with an *and* or an *or* and that it apllies to all rules in the sequence.

What it pretty much means is that you'll see

(a) blah blah blah;
(b) blah blah blah;
(c) blah blah blah;
(d) blah blah blah;
(e) blah blah blah; and
(f) blah blah blah.

and it really means

(a) blah blah blah; and
(b) blah blah blah; and
(c) blah blah blah; and
(d) blah blah blah; and
(e) blah blah blah; and
(f) blah blah blah.

In 12-3032 you've got a notwithstanding clause in rule 2 saying despite rule (1) you can go with rule 2 (a) (i or ii) *and* (b) in those specific situations. You also have to fullfil rule 3.

Its a lot like saying 
(1)You have to wear a red hat. 
(2)Notwithstanding the red hat rule (in spite of) 
(a) If the weather is 
(i) raining *or* 
(ii) snowing *and* 
(b) its dark outside you can wear a blue hat.
(3) The hat has to be made of cotton.

All of our laws are written in exactly the same way. The safety regs, the human rights code, consumer protection act, OHSA act and regs. Its all cold and perfectly logical, and there's no reading into it. Its just a matter of understanding the legal grammar and the key words like shall, may, notwithstanding and the like.

The semicolen sequences are probably the least understood and most confusing to most guys.

I liken reading codes and laws to writting software. Laws are all pure, cold, logic and what is written is precisely what it means.


----------

