# Transfer switch disconnect



## Quiksilver22 (Nov 21, 2012)

Do you need a disconnect between the meter and the transfer switch.
(Especially if the panel is still within closest location to meter, meaning no need for shutoff switch?)


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## Toto (Jul 27, 2011)

Are you asking if you can use transfer switch as your main disconnect? Some of the automatic transfer switches don't even have off option.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Is the transfer switch service rated??? If so then no disconnect is needed


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## Quiksilver22 (Nov 21, 2012)

No I'm asking if I need a service disconnect for the transfer switch. I'm getting different answers from different towns in NJ.


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## Quiksilver22 (Nov 21, 2012)

I think you just answered my question Dennis.

I have a regular I overhead 200a service and I'm adding a 20kw generator but I'm trying to figure out where to my put my transfer switch.
My only free spot inside is in a utility/storage room and the inspectors give me a hard time putting it there. So I'm assuming I can just mount the service rated transfer switch outside next to my meter and run the new SER's from the transfer to my panel and generator?


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## Toto (Jul 27, 2011)

I went to a fire about a year ago. First thing we do is kill the main breaker. All the lights go out in the house. As we are getting ready to make entry into the house the power comes back on. I re inspect the main panel and see the transfer switch with no "off" option. Its all internal and automatic. House is no longer safe for us to enter. By this time we have 3 fire engines there and we can't here the generator. We had to search the property and found it out back in a shed. Turned it off VIA breaker there.
Since no one was in the house it only delayed getting water on the fire. But still...


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## Quiksilver22 (Nov 21, 2012)

Yeh that's kind of why I'm asking also. Once you kill power the transfer switch is going to recognize that and start generator power. I can label the meter outside so it's known but there's nothing else you can do to prevent that.


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## Toto (Jul 27, 2011)

You can order a transfer switch with an "off" button or other form of disconnect. I have one ordered for a job but haven't seen it yet.


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## Quiksilver22 (Nov 21, 2012)

Good call.


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## JoeSchmo (Mar 18, 2013)

I am almost 100% sure you can not and the reason is that there is no main disconnect because those type of transfer switches don't have main breakers.


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## ElectricJoeNJ (Feb 24, 2011)

JoeSchmo said:


> I am almost 100% sure you can not and the reason is that there is no main disconnect because those type of transfer switches don't have main breakers.


Every auto transfer switch I've installed ( GE and Honeywell) all have main breakers as well as a breaker for the generator feed.


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## youngapprentice (Mar 31, 2012)

you need a service rated transfer switch with a main. or you can install your own disco or you can just keep the panel with the main. you need ocpd with a proper aic rating.


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## Quiksilver22 (Nov 21, 2012)

Ok thanks guys, I figured that's what I need


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Toto said:


> I went to a fire about a year ago. First thing we do is kill the main breaker. All the lights go out in the house. As we are getting ready to make entry into the house the power comes back on. I re inspect the main panel and see the transfer switch with no "off" option. Its all internal and automatic. House is no longer safe for us to enter. By this time we have 3 fire engines there and we can't here the generator. We had to search the property and found it out back in a shed. Turned it off VIA breaker there.
> Since no one was in the house it only delayed getting water on the fire. But still...


Interesting scenario

I would imagine that, even with a service rated ATS cut into a service, the main breaker/panel would not be too far inside the dwelling

but i can appreciate the confusion and distress fire creates

and the very good argument for external disconnects

~CS~


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

The only problem is if the available fault current is higher than what the transfer switch and your main disco are rated at then you need some type of current limiting fuses etc. to protect them.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Quiksilver22 said:


> I think you just answered my question Dennis.
> 
> I have a regular I overhead 200a service and I'm adding a 20kw generator but I'm trying to figure out where to my put my transfer switch.
> My only free spot inside is in a utility/storage room and the inspectors give me a hard time putting it there. So I'm assuming I can just mount the service rated transfer switch outside next to my meter and run the new SER's from the transfer to my panel and generator?


That's the ideal way to do them. 

Here's one I did recently in Bridgewater...


(Yes, I realize the front door panel is dented. Tell Norwall.com about it..)


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## electricalwiz (Mar 12, 2011)

Magnettica said:


> That's the ideal way to do them.
> 
> Here's one I did recently in Bridgewater...
> 
> ...


Are you installing a new front on that?
I would not be happy if I paid all that money for a damaged unit


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

I know those have a breaker disco on the right Mag, but i have installed redundant serv rated switches next to the ATS in the past

~CS~


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

Toto said:


> I went to a fire about a year ago. First thing we do is kill the main breaker. All the lights go out in the house. As we are getting ready to make entry into the house the power comes back on. I re inspect the main panel and see the transfer switch with no "off" option. Its all internal and automatic. House is no longer safe for us to enter. By this time we have 3 fire engines there and we can't here the generator. We had to search the property and found it out back in a shed. Turned it off VIA breaker there.
> Since no one was in the house it only delayed getting water on the fire. But still...


A simple and inexpensive solution here is to have the home's service panel and transfer switch labeled something like this: "Backup generator installed ____________ Generator disconnect location _______________ " (Location of generator and disconnect filled into the blanks.) 

Code Proposal perhaps?


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## ElectricJoeNJ (Feb 24, 2011)

mxslick said:


> A simple and inexpensive solution here is to have the home's service panel and transfer switch labeled something like this: "Backup generator installed ____________ Generator disconnect location _______________ " (Location of generator and disconnect filled into the blanks.)
> 
> Code Proposal perhaps?


They have a similar requirement for solar installs, why not for gens.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Generac includes a decal that states where the generator is and what fuel source. You fill in the blanks and stick it to the meter socket for instance. We have to have a seperate service rated disconnect for those. Y


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## gotshokd666 (Oct 17, 2012)

Quiksilver22 said:


> I think you just answered my question Dennis.
> 
> I have a regular I overhead 200a service and I'm adding a 20kw generator but I'm trying to figure out where to my put my transfer switch.
> My only free spot inside is in a utility/storage room and the inspectors give me a hard time putting it there. So I'm assuming I can just mount the service rated transfer switch outside next to my meter and run the new SER's from the transfer to my panel and generator?


I do that all the time, never failed inspection. You just have to make sure you bring your (water / ufer etc) grounds either to the transfer switch or meter, because your panel is now a sub panel. Whereabouts in NJ are you?


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## Quiksilver22 (Nov 21, 2012)

gotshokd666 said:


> I do that all the time, never failed inspection. You just have to make sure you bring your (water / ufer etc) grounds either to the transfer switch or meter, because your panel is now a sub panel. Whereabouts in NJ are you?


I'm in the Morris and Essex county areas. I do work in Livingston, the oranges and short hills


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## gotshokd666 (Oct 17, 2012)

Quiksilver22 said:


> I'm in the Morris and Essex county areas. I do work in Livingston, the oranges and short hills


Cool. I'm mostly in Monmouth & ocean counties.


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## sirco (May 18, 2013)

I installed an automatic generator for a customer. I havent been back to check the issue, but hes telling me when he turns off his main breaker, the generator starts and transfers over, although when the power is restored, the switch doesnt transfer back to utility power and the generator doesnt turn off. any ideas?


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

sirco said:


> I installed an automatic generator for a customer. I havent been back to check the issue, but hes telling me when he turns off his main breaker, the generator starts and transfers over, although when the power is restored, the switch doesnt transfer back to utility power and the generator doesnt turn off. any ideas?


Check the relays in the transfer switch. The control panel in the generator is recognizing when power is shut off with the voltage sense wires, which then sends a DC signal (iirc) to the transfer switch to actuate the relay to switch from house power to generator. The generator should then recognize when house power has been restored, and will send a signal to the transfer switch to operate a relay to restore the transfer switch back to house power. If I remember correctly, there are 3 relays (or 1 relay and 2 solenoids) in the xfer switch, so it is probably one of those. I may be a bit off though, since I haven't had to troubleshoot a Generac xfer switch since I went to their little school a couple years ago.


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## ElectricJoeNJ (Feb 24, 2011)

sirco said:


> I installed an automatic generator for a customer. I havent been back to check the issue, but hes telling me when he turns off his main breaker, the generator starts and transfers over, although when the power is restored, the switch doesnt transfer back to utility power and the generator doesnt turn off. any ideas?


There's a problem with your control wiring. Are there dip switches in the TS and did you set them? Definitely sounds like the control wiring. The 240v utility sense is what starts the gen, the control wires shut it off


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## sirco (May 18, 2013)

*transfer*

im away in alberta working so im not home to trouble shoot. i didnt recognize any dip switches. the control wiring was very straight forward. im not sure i could have mixed anything up. i will check the relays though. i never took apart anything to get at them.


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## sirco (May 18, 2013)

much appreciated guys. im not home for another week, but i will post what the issue was.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

sirco said:


> much appreciated guys. im not home for another week, but i will post what the issue was.


What brand generator is it? Generac? I assumed it was a Generac unit, but they are all a little different.


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## sirco (May 18, 2013)

yeah generac


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

Toto said:


> ... House is no longer safe for us to enter. By this time we have 3 fire engines there and we can't here the generator. We had to search the property and found it out back in a shed. Turned it off VIA breaker there.
> Since no one was in the house it only delayed getting water on the fire. But still...


The US Navy commissioned a  study in 1989 to study the danger of fighting fires that involved energized equipment with water. They concluded that with training and following some rules, it is safe for firefighters to use water on energized equipment up to 5kV. 
The distance for zero current at the nozzle using a straight stream on 4160 was 22 feet. It was much less for dwelling unit voltages.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> The US Navy commissioned a  study in 1989 to study the danger of fighting fires that involved energized equipment with water. They concluded that with training and following some rules, it is safe for firefighters to use water on energized equipment up to 5kV.
> The distance for zero current at the nozzle using a straight stream on 4160 was 22 feet. It was much less for dwelling unit voltages.


The Navy had a good firefighting school down in Norfolk years ago. Now that was fun, I enjoyed it. 
Except for the part were I, as nozzle man pointed it at a steel bulkhead 3' away. 
Man that tossed me around the room. But I didn't let go. LoL


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

mxslick said:


> A simple and inexpensive solution here is to have the home's service panel and transfer switch labeled something like this: "Backup generator installed ____________ Generator disconnect location _______________ " (Location of generator and disconnect filled into the blanks.)
> 
> Code Proposal perhaps?


In my jurisdiction it is a requirement based on Code section 702.7 (A) The commentary in the handbook following 702.7 reads :_ A sign is required at the service equipment that indicates the type and location of an emergency source_

*702.7 Signs.*​ 
*(A) Standby. *
​​A sign shall be placed at the service-entrance equipment that indicates the type and location of on-site optional standby power sources. A sign shall not be required for individual unit equipment for standby illumination​ 
We also require a load calculation for the panel(s) that are on the generator based on 702.4(B)

*702.4 Capacity and Rating.*
*(B) System Capacity. *
​​The calculations of load on the standby source shall be made in accordance with Article 220 or by another approved method.​


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