# Split bus panel Generator hookup



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

gwinkelectric said:


> I have a split bus panel that has no main Breaker. there is a section separated with a 60 amp breaker.after the 60 amp breaker are the breakers I would like to power with a generator. There are no free slots. Any Idea how I can add a 30 amp connection. There are no open slots to add an interlock.
> Thanks for any ideas


You need to give more information, panel brand, model would help.


----------



## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

backstay said:


> You need to give more information, panel brand, model would help.


i have seen a bunch of old QO panels made like this.


----------



## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

gwinkelectric said:


> I have a split bus panel that has no main Breaker. there is a section separated with a 60 amp breaker.after the 60 amp breaker are the breakers I would like to power with a generator. There are no free slots. Any Idea how I can add a 30 amp connection. There are no open slots to add an interlock.
> Thanks for any ideas


No main = no interlock. period!!! you will have to install a transfer switch. auto or manual depends on how much the ho will spend


----------



## HertzHound (Jan 22, 2019)

The panel is obsolete and not up to today’s code. That’s just one reason why there is no interlock kit for it. Have an electrician change the panel and add an interlock.


----------



## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

gwinkelectric said:


> I have a split bus panel that has no main Breaker. there is a section separated with a 60 amp breaker.after the 60 amp breaker are the breakers I would like to power with a generator. There are no free slots. Any Idea how I can add a 30 amp connection. There are no open slots to add an interlock.
> Thanks for any ideas


Good opportunity to scrape it off the wall and start over


----------



## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

Who's Allowed to Join ElectricianTalk.com
http://www.DIYChatroom.com/register.php/


----------



## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

With that type of panel, you cannot have any of the top 6 breakers on the gen. There's no way to prevent back feeding to the PUCO. 

If you could make 2 spaces in the bottom half, you could use an interlock kit with the gen breaker and the 60 amp subfeed main.


----------



## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

micromind said:


> With that type of panel, you cannot have any of the top 6 breakers on the gen. There's no way to prevent back feeding to the PUCO.
> 
> If you could make 2 spaces in the bottom half, you could use an interlock kit with the gen breaker and the 60 amp subfeed main.


Yes you could. How much did they spend for a generator ?

That was the end of the money, they are broke and cant afford a badly needed panel upgrade ?

Also realize that if they can afford a generator then the lady of the house will want some circuits added one day

Keep in mind the code requires leaving room for expansion when the job is done

Just figure it all in and tell them this much for the job. If they dont like it then you dont want to get involved with cheap skates anyway


----------



## SWDweller (Dec 9, 2020)

This situation is going to get sticky unless you upgrade the ancient distribution equipment.

I walk way from every generator job unless the generator is 1800 rpm. Having done construction jobs, (over a year) on generator power I learned what equipment will give a long life and few problems. It is not that hard to find an older motor home Onan for under a grand.
One guy had a 12kw with a idle down feature to run longer. He blew up his big screen when is Sub Zero kicked in and the gen was in idle down feature. Did not want to listen to me about voltage surges, to expensive.

I had a job with 10 portable generac's (6000watt). Except for the first week one of them was in the shop all of the time. We changed the oil weekly. They ran about 8 hours a day 5 days a week. When the job was over the boss suggested we sell them I said good idea. Use your phone number. He asked me what I would do, we own a back hoe was my response. 
Just my observation of the ones I had.


----------



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Almost Retired said:


> Keep in mind the code requires leaving room for expansion when the job is done


Can you site the code reference for this statement?


----------



## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

McClary’s Electrical said:


> Can you site the code reference for this statement?


no i cant. im not that good to be able to quote it. i may also be wrong


----------



## 210860 (Apr 12, 2021)

Almost Retired said:


> no i cant. im not that good to be able to quote it. i may also be wrong


Brother, what your quoting, you'll find in Article 90 - INTRODUCTION-
90.8 Wire Planning
90.8(A) Future Expansion and Convenience.

*Unfortunately having no real bearing, and it's _unenforceable._


----------



## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

Dell3c said:


> Brother, what your quoting, you'll find in Article 90 - INTRODUCTION-
> 90.8 Wire Planning
> 90.8(A) Future Expansion and Convenience.
> 
> *Unfortunately having no real bearing, and it's _unenforceable._


@McClary’s Electrical


----------



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

McClary’s Electrical said:


> Can you site the code reference for this statement?


90.8 Wiring Planning.
(A) Future Expansion and Convenience.

Plans and specifications that provide ample space in raceways, spare raceways, and additional spaces allow for future increases in electric power and communications circuits. Distribution centers located in readily accessible locations provide convenience and safety of operation.


----------



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

backstay said:


> 90.8 Wiring Planning.
> (A) Future Expansion and Convenience.
> 
> Plans and specifications that provide ample space in raceways, spare raceways, and additional spaces allow for future increases in electric power and communications circuits. Distribution centers located in readily accessible locations provide convenience and safety of operation.


I read that to require me to have both plans and specs for future. So if I have neither what should I do?


----------



## Quickservice (Apr 23, 2020)

Almost Retired said:


> No main = no interlock. period!!! you will have to install a transfer switch. auto or manual depends on how much the ho will spend


Plus... tell the HO that he also needs to upgrade the split bus. The split bus will probably get greatly frowned upon if and when he trys to sell his house.

Plus, you need to complete your ET profile.


----------



## hornetd (Oct 30, 2014)

Almost Retired said:


> Keep in mind the code requires leaving room for expansion when the job is done


I'd need to see chapter and verse on this assertion. In 45+ years in the craft I have never heard of such a code requirement. 

-- 
Tom Horne


----------



## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

hornetd said:


> I'd need to see chapter and verse on this assertion. In 45+ years in the craft I have never heard of such a code requirement.
> 
> --
> Tom Horne


refer to previous posts #13 and #15 above. which doesnt mean i am right, but it is what i was taught years ago. I also hate to go to a job where 3 or more very small panels have been daisy chained over the years, just to catch one more circuit


----------



## hornetd (Oct 30, 2014)

I realize that I may get a lot of flack for this but under similar circumstances I would do it again.

In the 5th day of a 10 day ice storm induced power outage I met a fella in the Home DeSpot who was looking for any way to get his heat and refrigerator running. He was obviously as poor as the proverbial church mouse. We had been working for 3 days, at that point, to provide generators to electrically dependent home care patients in order to keep them at home and out of our very crowded hospitals. Ice + slip = ow. Ice + vehicles = screech bang. We were out of Generlink meter base adapter switches after having used the first 100 that the distributor had in stock to send us. Our local utility management was screaming like wounded animals in objection to our using Generlinks at all but at that point the issue was moot because we wouldn't have more for several days. They were told to stop their yapping by the Governor's staff quoting the State Disaster Act to them. So the guy has small children and repair estimates were at around 7 more days at that point.

Because his split bus panel now had a Fused Switch ahead of it, added when he had built his own attached garage, his neighbor was trying to get him the parts to back feed the dryer outlet to connect a generator. Since I prefer to like the guy I see in the mirror each morning I intervened. I interrupted the neighbor and told him that what he was about to do was unlawful and if there was any kind of leakage current back to the utility lines he could be charged with Homicide by Wanton Gross Negligence. The neighbor tried to say I didn't know what I was talking about and was really P/O. I told him that he could look it up at the public library and that he'd find it grouped in the murder statute that made death by drunk driving a second degree murder. That shut him up.

You see the utility here had a lot of special electrical connections over the years, such as lower cost power for water heaters and electric heating. Those had all been discontinued but the only thing that you could be sure of is that when the linemen took the special metering or other controls out they didn't bypass the meter when restoring the connection to the load that had once been separately controlled. As a consequence they left a lot of sneak current pathways which bypassed the existing panels entirely. I got the resident and the neighbor to to buy enough 10/3 w Gnd NM to reach back to the split bus panel from the outside wall of the garage. I mounted the inlet there and they ran the cable to the panel. The neighbor sprang for a 100 Ampere main lug only panel which raised him a notch in my eyes. What market that panel was designed for I don't know but it suited the purpose. I sprang for the 2 breaker tie downs and the interlock kit. Yes it was one of those cheesy rocker types that you could bend out of the way with your fingers but it was what was available. Two 60 ampere breakers were the other parts needed and I had used 60s on the van. I ran new conductors from the terminals of the breaker that controlled the lower section of the panel to one of the breakers in the new panel. I connected the 10/3 red and black to the second breaker in the main lug panel. I connected the main lugs of the new MLO panel to the supply lugs in the lower section of the existing panel. The interlock kit prevented the 2 sources from being interconnected so I was comfortable doing it that way. 

I had told them it would work without any danger; I had meggered the lower busbars to ground and to the feeder conductors from the fused switch; but it was temporary and that I would come back and fix the rest when the power returned. Since I was still concerned about the know it all neighbor I did a double block and break energy control technique. I opened the fuse switch and removed the fuses. I then locked the switch closed with one of my lock out padlocks. I removed the meter from the base installed a meter blank and put the meter in my van. I told him to call when his neighbors lights came on and luckily that didn't happen in the middle of the night.

--
Tom Horne


----------



## hornetd (Oct 30, 2014)

Almost Retired said:


> refer to previous posts #13 and #15 above. which doesn't mean i am right, but it is what i was taught years ago. I also hate to go to a job where 3 or more very small panels have been daisy chained over the years, just to catch one more circuit


I'm sure that we all would rather not have to bat clean up behind someone who did schlock work. That said the information in section 90 is not part of the National Electric Code (NEC), as adopted by reference, in the areas were the NEC has been adopted as law or regulation.


----------



## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

hornetd said:


> I realize that I may get a lot of flack for this but under similar circumstances I would do it again.
> 
> In the 5th day of a 10 day ice storm induced power outage I met a fella in the Home DeSpot who was looking for any way to get his heat and refrigerator running. He was obviously as poor as the proverbial church mouse. We had been working for 3 days, at that point, to provide generators to electrically dependent home care patients in order to keep them at home and out of our very crowded hospitals. Ice + slip = ow. Ice + vehicles = screech bang. We were out of Generlink meter base adapter switches after having used the first 100 that the distributor had in stock to send us. Our local utility management was screaming like wounded animals in objection to our using Generlinks at all but at that point the issue was moot because we wouldn't have more for several days. They were told to stop their yapping by the Governor's staff quoting the State Disaster Act to them. So the guy has small children and repair estimates were at around 7 more days at that point.
> 
> ...


I hear ya !! some ppl just deserve a break !! as long as you were comfortable is really all that mattered at the time. and taking the meter and the fuses made it so in my mind. No complaints !!


----------



## Quickservice (Apr 23, 2020)

hornetd said:


> I'd need to see chapter and verse on this assertion. In 45+ years in the craft *I have never heard of such a code requirement.*
> 
> --
> Tom Horne


Same here! Plus... it is rare anymore to have any spares left in a residential load center.


----------



## hornetd (Oct 30, 2014)

Quickservice said:


> Same here! Plus... it is rare anymore to have any spares left in a residential load center.


*Quickservice*

Since the new panel, which I had configured as a transfer interlock, was a 12 slot MLO; because that is what the Home DeSpot had in stock; he actually ended up with 8 slots he could use for other circuits. I used a couple of them to single out some double tapped breakers after asking how often the circuit serving their dish washer, refrigerator, microwave and some of their kitchen countertop receptacles tripped. His reply was "only about twice a month." I moved all 3 to their own breakers. Since that was the only breaker which had been tripping I concluded that that would eliminate the overload. Being a Volunteer Firefighter and Emergency Medical Technician I did not want to meet him again with my other work clothes on.

Had that fused switch been an enclosed breaker I would have gone through my used breaker bins at home and substituted a shunt trip breaker connected to the generator inlet cable. That would establish a permanent double block between the utility and the generator. Why yes I do work for the department of redundancy department. Thank you for asking. 

--
Tom Horne


----------



## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

Quickservice said:


> Same here! Plus... it is rare anymore to have any spares left in a residential load center.


You are telling me that a 200A 40/60 isnt enough? time for a Main breaker and parallel sub panels ?


----------

