# 737 issues



## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

Boeing:



> Boeing has been developing a flight control software enhancement for the 737 MAX, designed to make an already safe aircraft even safer.


sounds like backpeddling to me. but what do I know. 

wonder what the issue is.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Maybe something influenced by human factors in past incidents and or something unique to that aircraft’s handling or operations.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

I have flown on about ten planes in the last month or so, could not tell you what any one of them was. I will guarantee that most of them were older than my car.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

The age really isn’t much an of an issue, it’s how well they are maintained. How old is a B52 these days?


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

sbrn33 said:


> I have flown on about ten planes in the last month or so, could not tell you what any one of them was. I will guarantee that most of them were older than my car.


These are new planes, designed for fuel efficiency. Perhaps a compromise for better MPG?


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

People have gotten obese over the the last 5 decades. The software is designed to make anvil's weigh an ounce . Looking backwards, the country used to think Jackie Gleason was a big fatso. Compared to today, he was CrossFit.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Don't be too surprised when it comes out that a jihadi has done his business.

In that part of the world about half of all accidents are deliberates.

A plane that was on fire before it crashed has more than a software glitch.

BTW, you would NOT BELIEVE the stuff that Africans are willing to load onto planes.

Stuff like a live croc in the aisle! Yes, it broke loose and then the plane went down.

When a plane goes down almost as fast as it took flight -- you should suspect foul play or crazy stupidity.


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

They need a big ass button that says "Turn all the stupid **** off and let me fly the plane by myself" in the cabin. 

Early reports are saying the software told the plane it was in a stall and therefore needed to go nosedown to gain airspeed. Problem was the earth jumped up and punched it in the nose.


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

They need a big ass button that says "Turn all the stupid **** off and let me fly the plane by myself" in the cabin. 

Early reports are saying the software told the plane it was in a stall and therefore needed to go nosedown to gain airspeed. Problem was the earth jumped up and punched it in the nose.


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

I flew on a 737 max a few weeks ago. I had a window seat next to the wing, you should of seen the flaps ( or whatever they are called) going up and down on take off. I thought WOW the feed back loop on that is way out, A pilot could never of controlled it that way.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

The problem will be traced to a buried splice in the wall...


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

The anti-stall software has an OFF button.

Since the black boxes have already been recovered answers should come pretty soon.


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## daveEM (Nov 18, 2012)

telsa said:


> The anti-stall software has an OFF button.
> 
> Since the black boxes have already been recovered answers should come pretty soon.



Seen a cockpit lately? *9,237* buttons and that's only on the ceiling.

The crews have to say F you and not board till they can control the machines.


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## stiffneck (Nov 8, 2015)

MikeFL said:


> They need a big ass button that says "Turn all the stupid **** off and let me fly the plane by myself" in the cabin.
> 
> Early reports are saying the software told the plane it was in a stall and therefore needed to go nosedown to gain airspeed. Problem was the earth jumped up and punched it in the nose.



Nothing beats "Manual Override" followed by "Manual Control"...


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## Bleddyn (Aug 29, 2018)

Actually, the cockpit of a 737 if fairly simple. https://magazin.lufthansa.com/de/en/fleet/boeing-737-300-en/panorama-photo-cockpit-boeing-737-300/


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

I've never flown a 737 but I have flown plenty of other planes so my opinions may not be completely accurate.

Near as i can tell, the 737MAX is yet another derivative of the ever-expanding line of 737s. This variant has new engines and a longer main landing gear. The new engines are considerably more fuel efficient than the others but one drawback is that the centerline of thrust is lower than before. 

Pushing at a lower spot will result in the nose being forced upward more than usual. 

An increase in nose pitch will result in lower airspeed, too low of airspeed will result in a stall. This stall has nothing to do with engines but rather it's a point at which the wings will suddenly lose all lift. Most planes can be stalled with takeoff power applied. 

When the wings stall, the nose will suddenly and violently drop as will the rest of the plane. The plane literally drops like a brick.......

The only possible way to recover is to push the control column (yoke) forward. This will lower the already low nose and result in an increase in airspeed. Once the speed is up, the wings will begin to fly again. 

This recovery will cost a few hundred feet of altitude in a small plane, much more in a big plane. If it happens close to the ground, it'll make headlines in the news.......

Since the 737MAX has a tendency to go nose-up with climb out power applied, Boeing came up with a computerized system that will override the pilots input and adjust the nose trim to force the nose down. 

It only operates when the autopilot is disengaged. 

I have no idea what the cause of the latest crash was, no one will know until the official report is done. 

Much of the fear is based on a Lionair crash that happened a few months ago. This crash was a direct result of the system receiving false info about the nose attitude. It thought the nose was high when it was actually level. So it adjusted the elevator trim to lower the nose when it should not have been lowered. 

There was a way to disengage the system but the pilots had not been trained on it so they did't know about it. 

The way to disengage the system is to flip the 'runaway trim' switches on the center console. There are 2. Then the trip is completely manual, the pilot adjusts it to suit the present conditions and all is well. 

One BIG problem I have with this system is it is active when the autopilot is disengaged. To me, disengaged means totally disengaged, not partly or even mostly. 

If I were flying a plane with the autopilot disengaged and the elevator trim moved unexpectedly, I would not think to flip the runaway switches because the trim would already be in manual. I would think I had much bigger problems. 

Unless I had been trained in the operation of the new system.........

Again, I'm not saying this system caused the latest crash and I can't imagine any pilot that doesn't know about it after the Lionair crash but it does look eerily familiar. 

Sorry for the long post buy planes are pretty complex machines and it's not easy to explain technical stuff about them.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Next time I go to Europe, maybe I’ll take a rowboat. It only takes 60 days  .


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## David C (May 19, 2015)

That was a nicely written post micromind.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

micromind said:


> I've never flown a 737 but I have flown plenty of other planes so my opinions may not be completely accurate.
> 
> Near as i can tell, the 737MAX is yet another derivative of the ever-expanding line of 737s. This variant has new engines and a longer main landing gear. The new engines are considerably more fuel efficient than the others but one drawback is that the centerline of thrust is lower than before.
> 
> ...



Welcome to the New World Order. It only gets Better And Better!


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

99cents said:


> Next time I go to Europe, maybe I’ll take a rowboat. It only takes 60 days  .


Better stick up a mast and a jib......


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## daveEM (Nov 18, 2012)

Bleddyn said:


> Actually, the cockpit of a 737 if fairly simple. https://magazin.lufthansa.com/de/en/fleet/boeing-737-300-en/panorama-photo-cockpit-boeing-737-300/


Yeah there is only a few hundred switches on the wall behind the co-pilots seat.


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## daveEM (Nov 18, 2012)

micromind said:


> It only operates when the autopilot is disengaged.
> 
> One BIG problem I have with this system is it is active when the autopilot is disengaged. To me, disengaged means totally disengaged, not partly or even mostly.


So simple.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

The last one I flew had no automation whatsoever and I hand flew it all the time. While this new plane looks simpler than older aircraft with more manual switches, etc., automation has its own learning curve. It was something I knew would be separate challenge if I had moved on to bigger aircraft. It was a good thing and I looked forward to it, just never made the leap.


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

One expert I listened to IIRC said a number of months back pilots were saying the manuals were so poorly written it was almost criminal. Also, third world countries don't have the experienced/trained pilots they need.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Boeing has recommended grounding them. The US and Canada have done just that (after the Canadian minister, a former astronaut, said yesterday they were safe)


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

99cents said:


> Boeing has recommended grounding them. The US and Canada have done just that (after the Canadian minister, a former astronaut, said yesterday they were safe)


I'm glad they did. I was afraid they(US) were foot dragging.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Bird dog said:


> I'm glad they did. I was afraid they(US) were foot dragging.


. 

371 of these aircraft worldwide. No more seat sales  .


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

The Amazon Air Cargo crash, although not a 737, had similar fate in nose down which can't yet be explained.

I wonder if anyone's looking into whether hacking could be the culprit? 

An update yesterday on the Amazon crash said the throttles suddenly went 100% and then the plane was put into a nose down at 49 degrees from horizontal via the stick, as if a human pushed the nose down. They said the stick shaker was not activated (which would indicate a stall and warrant nose-down to increase airspeed).


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## That_Dude (Feb 13, 2012)

MikeFL said:


> They need a big ass button that says "Turn all the stupid **** off and let me fly the plane by myself" in the cabin.
> 
> Early reports are saying the software told the plane it was in a stall and therefore needed to go nosedown to gain airspeed. Problem was the earth jumped up and punched it in the nose.


They make a button for that...


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

That_Dude said:


> They make a button for that...
> View attachment 133108


My understanding is those switches are separate from the autopilot & you would have to know that. Also, how well are pilots trained in emergency drills?


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

Bird dog said:


> My understanding is those switches are separate from the autopilot & you would have to know that. Also, how well are pilots trained in emergency drills?


As far as I know, the runaway trim switches are indeed separate from the autopilot on the 737s. Further, the system in question is active only when the autopilot is disengaged, thus adding to the confusion. 

Just about every pilot (myself included) would believe that if the autopilot is disengaged, the plane is now totally manual and nothing should happen automatically. 

Pilots that fly in industrialized countries are trained, trained, and trained even more. Not just flying, you have to know the systems pretty well too. 

3rd world pilots, not so much.....

Near as I can tell, when the system in question first came out, Boeing didn't tell anyone about it and no one was trained on it. Their reasoning was that you'd never even know it was there so why bother with training......

Turned out a bit different...........


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