# Accept this or no?



## uconduit (Jun 6, 2012)

....


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

uconduit said:


> ....


That did not answer the question


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## rexowner (Apr 12, 2008)

Link to "this article" doesn't appear to work.

I had a sheet metal guy suggest the same idea (not the specific
product) to me once. I didn't do it.


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

NO i would not wrap any conductor with any thin copper foil .


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## eric7379 (Jan 5, 2010)

hardworkingstiff said:


> If you were and inspector, would you allow me to wrap this product (of the correct thickness cut to the correct width and length) around the fine stands of mining cable and then terminate it on breaker lugs?
> 
> This article (which in part says)
> 
> This is a much more cost effective way of terminating fine stranded cable than using pin terminals.


Is it approved or listed for what you are wanting to use it for? If not, then :no::no:.

I am not an inspector, though.


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## uconduit (Jun 6, 2012)

I'm not an inspector but I don't believe that these sleeves would be ul listed because what guarantee is there that there would be enough pressure to make a solid connection with the strands.


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## uconduit (Jun 6, 2012)

http://static.schneider-electric.us/docs/Circuit Protection/0515DB0301.pdf


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

sq D has a _specific_ product....? ~CS~


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## billtowner (Feb 16, 2013)

I know your standards are different to ours, but instead of using shim we used to use a thick strand out of a bit of scrap cable, you have to get the right size and wrap it around the ends of multi strand ( imagine putting a spring over the end of the core but it has no gaps ) cores when terminating into mcb's and contractors with crush terminals when we were restricted for space. It holds the fine strands together and allows them to snug down really tight with a good contact area. We used to do this in explosion proof enclosures we use over here for underground coal mining, and this equipment is usually overhauled every four years or earlier and I have never seen any dramas with cables terminated that way and the cables were generally reused again. It aways worked better than using shim, we didn't just do it because it was cheap and easy.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

billtowner said:


> I know your standards are different to ours, but instead of using shim we used to use a thick strand out of a bit of scrap cable, you have to get the right size and wrap it around the ends of multi strand ( imagine putting a spring over the end of the core but it has no gaps ) cores when terminating into mcb's and contractors with crush terminals when we were restricted for space. It holds the fine strands together and allows them to snug down really tight with a good contact area. We used to do this in explosion proof enclosures we use over here for underground coal mining, and this equipment is usually overhauled every four years or earlier and I have never seen any dramas with cables terminated that way and the cables were generally reused again. It aways worked better than using shim, we didn't just do it because it was cheap and easy.


Your terminals are different, yours crush the conductor between two plates, our terminals use set screws that push into the conductors. They would just push aside the wrapped conductor.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Here is a pretty typical terminal for us.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

this thread is terminal!

~CS~


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

To answer your question read this article from my google docs 

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6nICUJivqdmbzhHMEd1MnpWalE/edit?usp=sharing


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

one needs a subscrpition to read the full version of that.....~CS~


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

chicken steve said:


> one needs a subscrpition to read the full version of that.....~CS~


Read from my google docs the other link


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## billtowner (Feb 16, 2013)

Hi BBQ , that is actually the style of terminal I was referring to, although you are correct that most of our tunnel terminals have clamping plates. The wire wrapping used to work really well for those style terminals and we used it rather than shim with our really fine multi strand cables from 25mm2 and larger. You need to get the right thickness of strand ( usually out of a bit of scrap cable with right size of strands to use )to wrap it with and do it tight as with each turn packed tight against the previous one and it works a treat. ( you start by laying the wrapping strand parallel with the wrapped strands then just in a bit from the end you turn and start to wrap back towards the insulation. If done right it doesn't really seperate like you would imagine and seems to get better contact and clamping than using shim. I've overhauled enclosures off continuous miners, shuttle cars etc with terminations done that way and never seen any hot joints or arcing even after several years getting smashed and bounced around a development panel. Anyway it's handy if you want to terminate a cable while you are waiting for some shim, because you can still take the wrapping strand off and fit shim later.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

billtowner said:


> Hi BBQ , that is actually the style of terminal I was referring to, although you are correct that most of our tunnel terminals have clamping plates. The wire wrapping used to work really well for those style terminals and we used it rather than shim with our really fine multi strand cables from 25mm2 and larger.


I am still at a loss why the pointed / rounded end of the set screw would not simply push between the wraps. :blink:

Beyond that, it would just not fly here. The inspectors would want to see manufactures instructions indicating that the wrapping is OK.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Hi Bill

i'd love a pix of how you folks terminate here....

~CS~


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

piperunner said:


> NO i would not wrap any conductor with any thin copper foil .


If you have ever bought Camlocks, you will find that they ship with a copper foil to wrap around the strands.

Likea dees:


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## billtowner (Feb 16, 2013)

BBQ said:


> I am still at a loss why the pointed / rounded end of the set screw would not simply push between the wraps. :blink:
> 
> Beyond that, it would just not fly here. The inspectors would want to see manufactures instructions indicating that the wrapping is OK.


That's OK, its kind of hard to explain or visualise unless you physically do it. I was surprised and sceptical of it the first time I saw it until I started using it, so I guess your inspectors would probably have a spak attack if they came across it.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

reminds me of some HV terminations i've seen done Jrannis....~CS~


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

jrannis said:


> If you have ever bought Camlocks, you will find that they ship with a copper foil to wrap around the strands.
> 
> Likea dees:


That's interesting, but I have 2 issues, 1st is that he twisted that copper counter clockwise when tightening (I don't know why, that's a pet peeve of mine, just like the bread ties, they come twisted the wrong way) and 2nd, he didn't use a torque wrench to tighten those screws. :laughing:

BTW, I 1st heard about using copper shim material from another contractor who said that's how Eaton terminated their connections (using mining cable) on transformer/panel assembly for use on docks.


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## pwoody (Oct 14, 2012)

before i became an electrician, i was a production tech for concerts and festivals. everybody and their dog wanted to be sound guy, so i stepped out and went to do lights and lectrics.

first thing i thought of with this thread was the copper shims that came with cam lock connectors for building cable sets.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

Tin it, jam it in, tighten it down.


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

It's like a condom for large conductors


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## kevink1955 (Apr 25, 2012)

Cummins uses copper shiim on their GenSets to terminate multiple output leads on 1 lug of the main breaker. First time I saw it I had to look twice but it makes sense as the stator leads are fine stranded and would not stay in place without it.


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## sseivard (Apr 25, 2012)

I would solder it before I used foil. I would think the lug would damage the foil and mess up the strands.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

sseivard said:


> I would solder it before I used foil. I would think the lug would damage the foil and mess up the strands.


If that was true, I would think SQ D would not have published their doc.


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## Bbsound (Dec 16, 2011)

No I dont think an inspector should blindly pass that, nor do I think there is anything wrong with it. 

When we cant use crimp on lugs, we use shoo pins made by greaves. 

They are made spefically for the DLO cable to mechanical lugs terminations.


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## sseivard (Apr 25, 2012)

hardworkingstiff said:


> If that was true, I would think SQ D would not have published their doc.



I see what you mean. However in the pic it looks more like a sleeve then the metal stock the op posted. I guess I just have a thinner metal stock in mind.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Fwiw, I just strip the cable, wrap the very end of the exposed conductors with jap rap, shove it in the lug and hit it with the 18 volt impact. 
Not kosher but have hundreds of them out there and no failures. Yet.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

I read that whitepaper as a suggestion to OEM's using flex cable in large amounts on equipment they will be getting a listing on not for field use.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

sseivard said:


> I would solder it before I used foil. I would think the lug would damage the foil and mess up the strands.


I want to see someone solder or tin 4/0 power cable without burning up the insulation.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

BBQ said:


> I want to see someone solder or tin 4/0 power cable without burning up the insulation.


 An old fashioned "dip pot" should do the job.


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## Bulldog (Jan 28, 2009)

I would require a cut sheet on the product, to ensure that is was approved the that use.


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