# Sunday afternoon Call,,,,,Chicago Guys will love this one..



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Client calls;

"My TV Buzzed out it was loud!, Then I heard a crackling sound and more Buzzing on the other side of the room next to the sliding door to the back porch, there is a switch-box there and the wall is burning hot with a melted plastic smell.....

Okay, go to your basement and shut off the main breaker and I'll be there in an hour.

So I look at the switch box, it looks fine and the wall is cool now, no smoke marks around the box are showing so I open it up to have a look it stunk of electrical burning,but nothing is showing in the box itself, but there is no power there either( I turned on all the breakers when I got there),,,Hmmm:blink: Okay so I open the receptacle below in, nothing showing there either, this box had 2 14/3's feed through red leg switched,that still had power from the red leg, but that's coming from a 4 way switch near the front door. So I open some of the other receptacles just to make sure they're ok, then I open the panel (ITE) everything checks out.

So there is only one thing left to do,,,,That's Right Cut open the wall around the switch, the last thing I want to do because now the grand total will jump big on the client, so I told him there really is no choice and your insurance will cover it, I started out with a 4" hole saw and sure enough the paper on the insulation was black from flames, so out to the truck for the sawzall, let the fun begin...:laughing:

Here is the inside of the switch-box..










This is the inside of the wall....










As you can see on this one is that if the outside-wall was not so tight it would have had more oxygen and this four family condo would have gone up in flames, but I suspect that there was not enough oxygen to feed it so some of the paper burnt itself out.










All the wiring was good here, the problem was the siders were using long nails in their nail gun about 15 years ago when this place was built, these outside-walls are 2x6 construction so you would think that there would be enough room for the wires,,,,Nope...


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

This is the top of the switch-box...










So I pulled that off of the stud because the problem was behind the box, as I was doing so I got more sparks but the breaker held, so they are probably "NO-BLOW-BREAKERS":laughing:











These two are in love....










Gotta love those nail guns...:laughing:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Now we have 30 seconds delay between posts,,,no wonder things are slow around here:laughing::laughing::no:


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Challenger boxes, Ettcoflex and bakelite wirenuts...I just talked about that in Shockdocs thread the other day. :laughing::laughing:


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

An AFCI would have prevented that. :whistling2:


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

Yikes  Good find. Drywall patching is a drop in the bucket compared to getting your house burnt down.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

So how did you fix it Harry?


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

erics37 said:


> Yikes  Good find. Drywall patching is a drop in the bucket compared to getting your house burnt down.


Man that's a four family condo with kids dogs cats and other critters so that timing was just right.

Bu here is the question, That whole complex was done by the same siding crew....


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## Jack Legg (Mar 12, 2014)

15 years ago a nail goes right thru the wires..and it just now decides to burn the paper:blink:


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

HARRY304E said:


> Man that's a four family condo with kids dogs cats and other critters so that timing was just right.
> 
> Bu here is the question, That whole complex was done by the same siding crew....


Sounds like fire extinguishers need to be issued, :001_huh:


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## sparky402 (Oct 15, 2013)

Sometimes its unavoidable but with new houses i try to tell them we dont drill and run wire til the siders are done for this very reason. I know you cant help it when it gets re-sided and you cant stop everything. I had a builder complain because i said i wasnt starting until they were done, told him i had to fix problems like these before, then he was ok with it.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

hardworkingstiff said:


> So how did you fix it Harry?


"Made safe" for now, the condo owner wants the insurance to have a look and then we can jump in and do it.

I called out my Carpenter buddy for the patch and paint work, This is a VIP client so there will be no issues on getting paid......:thumbup:


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Harry can I overnight you a couple Slater receptacles so you can restore it to its original lustre?


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Shockdoc said:


> Harry can I overnight you a couple Slater receptacles so you can restore it to its original lustre?


:laughing::thumbup:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Shockdoc said:


> Harry can I overnight you a couple Slater receptacles so you can restore it to its original lustre?


:laughing::laughing:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Jack Legg said:


> 15 years ago a nail goes right thru the wires..and it just now decides to burn the paper:blink:


It had to be slowly deteriorating over all of that time,,Earth movement and such.


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## 120/208 (Nov 18, 2012)

After hours rate.:thumbup: What made you open up the drywall?


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

120/208 said:


> After hours rate.:thumbup: What made you open up the drywall?


Absolutely everything else checked out, so that is the next step, I knew off of the bat however if I did not check everything else I could have screwed myself if nothing was showing in there.


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

HARRY304E said:


> It had to be slowly deteriorating over all of that time,,Earth movement and such.


Did you or they call the FD?


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

A Little Short said:


> Did you or they call the FD?


No,,,,,But that is something to consider, the electrical inspector too.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

HARRY304E said:


> Man that's a four family condo with kids dogs cats and other critters so that timing was just right.
> 
> Bu here is the question, That whole complex was done by the same siding crew....


I'm gonna guess it was the sheathing crew or the framers who shot those nails, looking for the stud. Those nails are way too long for siders.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

sparky402 said:


> Sometimes its unavoidable but with new houses i try to tell them we dont drill and run wire til the siders are done for this very reason. I know you cant help it when it gets re-sided and you cant stop everything. I had a builder complain because i said i wasnt starting until they were done, told him i had to fix problems like these before, then he was ok with it.


Yes it's possible that they re-sided recently but not for several years.


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

HARRY304E said:


> No,,,,,But that is something to consider, the electrical inspector too.


Had a call a few weeks back where a wire was hot up in the attic.
FD was called and they told the HO that they should always be called as they have ways to check the framing (wood) to make sure there is no heat that hadn't been noticed that could flame up later.
They did find hot spots and got it cooled down. Told her to call an electrician to check the wiring.

This is all from the HO, so I didn't talk to the FD and don't know if all this is true or not.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

IslandGuy said:


> I'm gonna guess it was the sheathing crew or the framers who shot those nails, looking for the stud. Those nails are way too long for siders.



True that, but it was done a long while ago.


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## bml215 (Jul 2, 2012)

Nice job Harry.


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

Good catch Harry ! You're absolutely right though , that the same problem could be present in the whole development . I had a call in a condo development once . Burning plastic smell coming from electrical panel . It was pretty obvious when I took the cover off what had happened as I looked at all the paint overspray on the entire panel interior and wires . The bus was coated in paint , causing a compromised bus connection and the main current draw and problem was at the AC condensing unit breaker . The plastic around the breaker and at the bus was melted pretty badly . I changed out the panel and let the property manager know , hoping to get at least an inspection / PM job out I it ( 370 units $$$$$ ) . Nah , they'll just wait until one burns down I guess , lol ?


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

If anything else, you've saved the trade the false blame of yet another _'electrical fire'_ Harry....:thumbsup:

~CS~


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

chicken steve said:


> If anything else, you've saved the trade the false blame of yet another _'electrical fire'_ Harry....:thumbsup:
> 
> ~CS~


Thank goodness...:thumbup:


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

Good job Harry!


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## local134gt (Dec 24, 2008)

I'll be the first Chicago guy to admit that the same thing can and does happen to emt.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

local134gt said:


> I'll be the first Chicago guy to admit that the same thing can and does happen to emt.



Interesting,,,you wold hope the nails would bend away from the pipe.

Looks like you guys will have to switch up to RMC....:jester::laughing:


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

chicken steve said:


> If anything else, you've saved the trade the false blame of yet another 'electrical fire' Harry....:thumbsup:
> 
> ~CS~


Don't let Eaton copy that photo, they'll use it to serve kool aid to the sheeple on how only afci breakers can prevent fires.


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## local134gt (Dec 24, 2008)

A well placed nail from a pneumatic gun would do it. Of course if the emt and Romex are installed properly and the siding guys use the proper type/length nail there wouldn't be an issue...


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## FrunkSlammer (Aug 31, 2013)

Be sure to send the siding company a nice thank you card.

Without people who don't know what they're doing, we'd all have no work. We would install something and then stay home for 100 years waiting to install something somewhere else.


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## 8V71 (Dec 23, 2011)

A Little Short said:


> Had a call a few weeks back where a wire was hot up in the attic.
> FD was called and they told the HO that they should always be called as they have ways to check the framing (wood) to make sure there is no heat that hadn't been noticed that could flame up later.
> They did find hot spots and got it cooled down. Told her to call an electrician to check the wiring.
> 
> This is all from the HO, so I didn't talk to the FD and don't know if all this is true or not.


I can't speak for all departments but we have been carrying thermal equipment for a number of years.


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## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

8V71 said:


> I can't speak for all departments but we have been carrying thermal equipment for a number of years.


I don't know of any department in this area that doesn't have at least one thermal imager. It's pretty much standard equipment these days.


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

HARRY304E said:


> Interesting,,,you wold hope the nails would bend away from the pipe. Looks like you guys will have to switch up to RMC....:jester::laughing:


 nails usually do , screws , not so much. , lol !


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

EBFD6 said:


> I don't know of any department in this area that doesn't have at least one thermal imager. It's pretty much standard equipment these days.


It may come in handy at that complex...:thumbsup:


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

drumnut08 said:


> nails usually do , screws , not so much. , lol !


Schedule 80 stainless rigid will solve the problem


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## 120/208 (Nov 18, 2012)

Make sure you arc fault the circuit after the repair.:laughing:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

120/208 said:


> Make sure you arc fault the circuit after the repair.:laughing:


You know it at $100 a pop!...:laughing:


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

HARRY304E said:


> You know it at $100 a pop!...:laughing:


No worries Harry. :whistling2:



HARRY304E said:


> This is a VIP client so there will be no issues on getting paid......:thumbup:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

hardworkingstiff said:


> No worries Harry. :whistling2:


All Good...:thumbsup:


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

MTW said:


> An AFCI would have prevented that. :whistling2:


Tad late, just noticed this in ET now but its worth trying the guess what happened. This could be pyroforic carbonization. Nails pierces the hot and trickles into the wood drying it out to the point of charcoal. The process takes months or even years. No arc fault involved. Heres one from mike holt. Any condition of an energized nail will cause it, not just the stated:


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Shockdoc said:


> Don't let Eaton copy that photo, they'll use it to serve kool aid to the sheeple on how only afci breakers can prevent fires.


Check at above reply as to what might have happened that an AFCI would catch.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I changed a receptacle last week and in went the AFCI breaker. Whether an AFCI would have tripped on this, I don't know. At least there's more markup.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

nrp3 said:


> I changed a receptacle last week and in went the AFCI breaker. Whether an AFCI would have tripped on this, I don't know. At least there's more markup.


What did the HO say about the breaker needing a change?


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

meadow said:


> Tad late, just noticed this in ET now but its worth trying the guess what happened. This could be pyroforic carbonization. Nails pierces the hot and trickles into the wood drying it out to the point of charcoal. The process takes months or even years. No arc fault involved. Heres one from mike holt. Any condition of an energized nail will cause it, not just the stated:


I was just kidding anyway. I have no faith whatsoever in AFCI's. I did see the new Leviton receptacle AFCI a few days ago. I was tempted to buy one just to mess with it a bit, but I didn't want to waste $30 because I knew it wouldn't work. :laughing:


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Its my housing client. I sent them an email a while back this would be the new norm. This was GE. They also have tons of FPE. For that I have the AFCI receptacles.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

MTW said:


> I was just kidding anyway. I have no faith whatsoever in AFCI's. I did see the new Leviton receptacle AFCI a few days ago. I was tempted to buy one just to mess with it a bit, but I didn't want to waste $30 because I knew it wouldn't work. :laughing:


I know you were kidding. But I agree with shock dock, any AFCI manufacturer would jump and say that would have been 100% avoidable with an arc fault hoping nobody would think of the possibility of wood carbonization. That's how manufacturers push stuff, using normal ignorance as a way to say so when its not. 








nrp3 said:


> Its my housing client. I sent them an email a while back this would be the new norm. This was GE. They also have tons of FPE. For that I have the AFCI receptacles.




Would rather the code mandate FPE be replaced than breakers that actually work Hope he doesn't discover craigs list...


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

meadow said:


> I know you were kidding. But I agree with shock dock, any AFCI manufacturer would jump and say that would have been 100% avoidable with an arc fault hoping nobody would think of the possibility of wood carbonization. _*That's how manufacturers push stuff, using normal ignorance as a way to say so when its not.
> 
> *_
> 
> ...


That is correct....:thumbsup:


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HARRY304E said:


> That is correct....:thumbsup:


So what happened with this?


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

HARRY304E said:


> Client calls;
> 
> "My TV Buzzed out it was loud!, Then I heard a crackling sound and more Buzzing on the other side of the room next to the sliding door to the back porch, there is a switch-box there and the wall is burning hot with a melted plastic smell.....
> 
> ...


 Lucky catch.


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## fowledup (Mar 27, 2011)

8V71 said:


> I can't speak for all departments but we have been carrying thermal equipment for a number of years.


Even the cheaper Temp guns are wonderful tools for "burning electrical smell" trouble calls, especially ballasts. Don't have to open up every fixture, and a good way to find a hot spot in the wall.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

MTW said:


> So what happened with this?


Nothing has been done yet.


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