# Fire alarm "code" question



## HARRY304E

PorkchopXXX said:


> Sorry for long post:
> 
> Located in Minnesota. Roughing in a 4,000' federal bldg.
> 
> Had the low voltage contractor who will take care of fire alarm, security, data, etc out to the site. Asked him how he wanted fire alarm piped, he said just stub up to cable tray from devices. Fine been done this way plenty of times.
> 
> The print specifically said had to be completely in pipe. Checked with the electrical super, based out of Massachusets, he basically doesn't reply to e-mails.
> 
> Later on in project another lead electrician from a similar site is sent to give some "advise." He tells me I HAVE to run a pipe from the fire alarm panel to all horn/strobe boxes in a loop with NO j-boxes. So 1 pipe in 1 pipe out. Same for smokes and pullstations on a seperate run.
> 
> Also, all boxes, mudrings, and couplings HAVE to be painted red but not the pipe. This includes boxes/fittings that will be buried in exterior wall spray foam and others that will be behind sheetrock.
> 
> Spec book says nothing about identifing with red paint. I have painted and marked 4" square covers before but usually only when the job's spec book called for it.
> 
> Now another similar site had some pictures taken and sent to the site to show the general how to frame an area and I noticed they had just painted the fire alarm conduits red but not the boxes or fittings.
> 
> Most of the electricians for these projects are from the Massachusets area and my site would be the only with "local" electricians.
> 
> They are stating these practices are NATIONAL CODE and have to be followed.
> 
> Questions: Are j-boxes allowed in a fire alarm conduit system?
> What if any HAS to be painted red?
> 
> I know when pulling wire you do not want to splice in j-boxes with the horn/strobe circuit and NO t-taping. Low volt guy says I do not have to loop back just 2 seperate runs and can "dead-end" at the last device on each run.
> 
> Low volt guy wants no t-taping on smokes/pullstation run too. Device to devise.
> 
> Thanks for the help


You need to ask them for a specific code reference..

Maybe they are quoting some sort of a Federal Fire alarm code although i could not find anything like that. 

This is the only article that talks about marking and it does not say anything about painting pipe and boxes Red.




> 760.30 Fire Alarm Circuit Identification. Fire alarm circuits
> shall be identified at terminal and junction locations in
> a manner that helps to prevent unintentional signals on fire
> alarm system circuit(s) during testing and servicing of other
> systems




Welcome to the forum...:thumbup:


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## running dummy

The only reason they don't want you t-tapping is because it takes longer to program. System will work fine even with star taps. (SLC circuit, not the horn/strobe circuit)


I have pulled through countless junction boxes, no splices, just for my loops


Sounds like a job spec for the painted items. I would get a spec signed off on before I go and paint 1,000's of boxes and mud rings


There has been a new system implemented in my area it seems though. It is called speaker/ visuals. The speaker system is a pair of 18/2 that is run in series to a bunch of speakers, not horns, and has a recorded audio file played under alarm. I believe it is part of a mass notification system they are using for not only fire alarms but hurricane, tornado, bad weather stuff. Along with the speakers usually a 14/2 or larger cable is ran the all the visuals. Easy stuff but just a tad different. SLC was all the same.


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## leland

Reasoning behind piping in a loop,is for supervision and integrity of the system.
Feed and return cannot be in the same conduit.Reason for this is if there is a break in the ckt,all devices will still operate as they will be powered from both directions. For the same reason they spec no 'T-tapping.

Also being a Federal building,probably falls under strict govt specs.

NFPA-72 will have most of what you need and will guide you to other codes.

http://www.nfpa.org/aboutthecodes/list_of_codes_and_standards.asp


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## niteshift

consult with AHJ?


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## Chris Kennedy

HARRY304E said:


> Maybe they are quoting some sort of a Federal Fire alarm code although i could not find anything like that.


That would be the IFC and can be viewed here.


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## PorkchopXXX

I am not a fire code expert at all. I felt they were telling me to pipe in a loop with no j-boxes because that was the norm for NorthEast area. I too have looped through j-box with no splices.

The low voltage installers are based out of Illinois and may have similar installation experiences that I am use to.

The painting thing was kinda of weird. If the spec doesn't require it why do it? Especially with pipe and fittings that will not be accessable.

Not a big project so not too big a deal.


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## running dummy

leland said:


> Reasoning behind piping in a loop,is for supervision and integrity of the system.
> Feed and return cannot be in the same conduit.Reason for this is if there is a break in the ckt,all devices will still operate as they will be powered from both directions. For the same reason they spec no 'T-tapping.
> 
> Also being a Federal building,probably falls under strict govt specs.
> 
> NFPA-72 will have most of what you need and will guide you to other codes.
> 
> http://www.nfpa.org/aboutthecodes/list_of_codes_and_standards.asp


Are you referencing a class a circuit? Where the circuit loops back to the panel and any break in the loop the facp energizes both ends?


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## leland

Yes RD- as far as splicing,splice all you want no rules.
Just remember that with every splice is a potential failure point.
So if you are the trouble shooter- less is better.:thumbsup:


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## di11igaf

All the fire alarm I've done, the box painting is usually required(don't know if code, but usually in specs)when fire alarm is piped in. Reason being, when piped in you are now allowed to use single conductors instead of red fire alarm cable. Painting boxes red just now allows the single conductors to be more easily identified as fire alarm and not power.
Like I said, not sure if that's actually code, but its at least industry standard, and most places I've done require it when specs call for fire alarm to be piped in.


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## TattooMan

As far as I am aware the painting is not "national code". Sounds like someone is trying to sound more important than they really are to me. Out here in California i have seen a mixture of painted and non-painted. I prefer painted myself just to make it easier to follow from the ground. Also, j-boxes are a must out here. Don't think I've ever come across a system that DOESN'T use them.


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## LARMGUY

di11igaf said:


> All the fire alarm I've done, the box painting is usually required(don't know if code, but usually in specs)when fire alarm is piped in. Reason being, when piped in you are now allowed to use single conductors instead of red fire alarm cable. Painting boxes red just now allows the single conductors to be more easily identified as fire alarm and not power.
> Like I said, not sure if that's actually code, but its at least industry standard, and most places I've done require it when specs call for fire alarm to be piped in.


 
^^^^ This

Also, just because there is a J box doesn't mean there is a splice. J box make pulling easier. It also sounds like the LV guy hasn't read the specs as he said stub up when the specs so clearly state pipe.

My advice is follow the specs, if it says red paint, spray red paint. If they ask you to change from the specs, require a signed change order.


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## mikeh32

Its not required to paint it, but you have to identify it. 

Here I have seen that the conduit must be color, and boxes painted. 

It is a real pain in the ass having to know the NEC, and the Chicago code too


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## wildleg

I don't believe there is any code, anywhere that does not allow for junction boxes. no splices - fine, but no jboxes ? Unless this is a very specific installation where they clearly won't be needed, and they are unwanted because it's explosion proof or something like that, that's almost a guaranteed NEC violation (360 rule)


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