# Sparks from breaker



## erics37

If the breaker cleared a fault it needs to be replaced anyway. Especially if it's a cheap-o 15 amp resi breaker.

And while it's being replaced, I'd check out the panel bus too.

And tell your tards that they're supposed to shut the breaker off BEFORE they change the receptacle.


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## sparky970

Spark Master said:


> just heard this story.....
> they were changing an outlet, and apparently shorted the outlet against the box. no biggie, I would think.....
> 
> But they claim sparks were flying from the breaker ?
> I have never seen sparks coming from a breaker. if sparks are flying from a breaker, the panel is going to flash over, and he'll be another arc flash victim.
> 
> I tell them they have a more serious problem. a bad breaker at the very least.
> 
> But they claim they fixed the shorted outlet, and all is well, or at least.. no more sparks from the breaker.
> 
> anyone ever seen or hear of sparks flying from a breaker??
> I guess it was at the 10,000 amp interrupting range. it's a small residental service, so I can't imagine the fault current being more than 10K.


So it was a metal box?


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## bobelectric

Who can see around corners?


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## 480sparky

Not all sparks are big enough to take down The Glass Tower.


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## Shockdoc

Sure you'll see sparks, just engage a breaker with a dead short tied to it, It will lite up around the handle.


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## swimmer

Shockdoc said:


> Sure you'll see sparks, just engage a breaker with a dead short tied to it, It will lite up around the handle.



I've seen this a few times too.


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## Julius793

erics37 said:


> If the breaker cleared a fault it needs to be replaced anyway.


Say Wat????


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## Spark Master

Julius793 said:


> Say Wat????


 
the breaker self destructs from one bolted fault. :detective:

possibly if the fault current exceeds the breaker rated fault current.


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## 480sparky

Spark Master said:


> the breaker self destructs from one bolted fault. :detective:...........


And the documentation for this is where?



Spark Master said:


> .......possibly if the fault current exceeds the breaker rated fault current.


And, possibly............ not.


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## erics37

Julius793 said:


> Say Wat????


I said, "If the breaker cleared a fault it needs to be replaced anyway."

A short circuit is destructive to the guts of the circuit breaker, and they're only rated and to succesfully clear a fault a couple of times. I don't know where that info comes from... UL 489 perhaps? Other standards maybe? I think Zog has mentioned it a few times.

Anyway if there's sparks blowing out of it, it's possible it's cleared a few dozen faults in the past :laughing:


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## user4818

erics37 said:


> I said, "If the breaker cleared a fault it needs to be replaced anyway."
> 
> A short circuit is destructive to the guts of the circuit breaker, and they're only rated and to succesfully clear a fault a couple of times. I don't know where that info comes from... UL 489 perhaps? Other standards maybe? I think Zog has mentioned it a few times.


:nerd:


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## erics37

Peter D said:


> :nerd:


What's really scary is that I'm wearing glasses and gnawing on a carrot right now, so I actually look like that.


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## ace24wright

must be a cutler-hammer


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## B4T

erics37 said:


> If the breaker cleared a fault it needs to be replaced anyway. Especially if it's a cheap-o 15 amp resi breaker.


I never heard of this.. must be a new way of doing electrical work.. :laughing:

I just looked ay a Murray breaker and nothing stamped on the box.. :001_huh:


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## HARRY304E

ace24wright said:


> must be a cutler-hammer


Must be.


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## erics37

B4T said:


> I never heard of this.. must be a new way of doing electrical work.. :laughing:
> 
> I just looked ay a Murray breaker and nothing stamped on the box.. :001_huh:


You would trust a circuit breaker that's already cleared several short circuits to clear another one? We all know it probably would, but I sure wouldn't want to be the guy that said, "It'll be okay," and then have it fail to trip because it's taken one too many faults.

If it's shooting sparks out of it, that's just icing on the cake. Circuit breakers aren't designed to clear faults over and over again forever. That's why they're easy to replace.


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## 480sparky

erics37 said:


> You would trust a circuit breaker that's already cleared several short circuits to clear another one? We all know it probably would, but I sure wouldn't want to be the guy that said, "It'll be okay," and then have it fail to trip because it's taken one too many faults.
> 
> If it's shooting sparks out of it, that's just icing on the cake. Circuit breakers aren't designed to clear faults over and over again forever. That's why they're easy to replace.



So where's all the easily-accessible empirical data on this all-so-common phenomenon?


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## BBQ

B4T said:


> I never heard of this..


Oh........ well then it must not be true as you have never heard of it. :laughing:


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## BBQ

From NEMA AB-1 from 1986.





> Fault Interrupting test
> One break operation, followed by a cool down period, followed by a "making and breaking" operation.


Effectively it allows one reset of a breaker that has tripped at full fault current rating.

After that all bets are off, it might work fine, it might work OK, or it might not work at all.

As far as the listing after one bolted fault it is a molded case switch. 

You can go here for more info http://static.schneider-electric.us...nsulated Case Circuit Breakers/0613DB9902.pdf


Does any of this mean I always replace a breaker that has had a fault? 

No.

But if I see sparks coming out of it you bet I would replace it.


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## Big John

480sparky said:


> So where's all the easily-accessible empirical data on this all-so-common phenomenon?


 This isn't the actual UL standard, but I believe it's accurate. Here's the applicable section:


> ...Next comes the short circuit test program, with each circuit breaker mounted in an enclosure. The test circuit allows for four feet of rated wire on the line side, with an optional ten inches of wire on the load side to act as a “shorting bar.”
> 
> The circuit breakers are required to pass two operations—the “O” or “open” test, and the “C-O” or “close/open” test. For the “O” operation, the circuit breaker is in the closed position and then a fault is initiated at the test cell. The circuit breaker must safely open the circuit. For the “C-O” operation, the fault current is available at the terminals and the circuit breaker closes into the fault. Then it must open safely. Both sequences are done on all samples.
> 
> The samples still have NOT passed until each pole of each circuit breaker has again passed a 200% calibration test and each has been checked for dielectric integrity....


 So if someone knows a breaker has been subjected to two faults at maximum AIC, you no longer have any guarantee of proper operation.

That being said, in _Spark Master's _situation, I'd replace the breaker. If asked why, I'd answer "Because breakers aren't supposed to throw sparks." No need to make this complicated.

-John


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## hardworkingstiff

Big John said:


> "Because breakers aren't supposed to throw sparks." No need to make this complicated.
> 
> -John


:thumbsup: well said


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## Zog

Late to the party here but UL 489 is the correct reference and NEMA AB-4 supports this as well. The key thing to understand here is the UL standard requires that they are able to interupt 2 fault at rated AIC, after that all bets are off. But they can interupt many more overloads, which is much more typical. 

If you don't have the equipment to test a breaker and verify it still trips within its published TCC you should just replace it. There is a point where testing makes more sense than replacement, depending on economics and the situation. I am currently running about $1,500 worth of testing on a $7 breaker in my shop, but that is rare and the customer and situation in this case are special.


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## btharmy

Spark Master said:


> But they claim sparks were flying from the breaker


Everybody says that when they want you there RIGHT NOW. They usually change their tune when they get the 2 hr minimum, mobilization, and emergency response fee. All the sudden it is " ok, sure, if you can fit us in later this afternoon that will be fine". Suddenly, no more sparks, fire, smoke or whatever else they claimed to begin with.


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## dieselram752

Federal stab-loc breaker?


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## guest

Nope it was an FPE bolt-on: :laughing:


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## WarAdmiral

Everything arcs when you break a connection. May have a large load on that circuit. I would replace the break. Put a probe on it. Keep in mind breakers have a life spand. Like a car if you never use it, it will never run 100 percent. This is why mains go all the time. In breakers heat is the nemesis. Dampness and humidity will cause a breaker to trip depending on its make up. Thermal, thermal magnetic, hydro magnetic. A big flash to a customer is usual a small one to an electrician but all are dangerous.


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## Zog

WarAdmiral said:


> Dampness and humidity will cause a breaker to trip depending on its make up.


 Explain your theory here.



WarAdmiral said:


> Thermal, thermal magnetic, hydro magnetic. .


 Hydro magnetic?


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## Big John

Zog said:


> ...Hydro magnetic?


 The old dash pot trips, maybe?

-John


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## tkb

erics37 said:


> You would trust a circuit breaker that's already cleared several short circuits to clear another one? We all know it probably would, but I sure wouldn't want to be the guy that said, "It'll be okay," and then have it fail to trip because it's taken one too many faults.
> 
> If it's shooting sparks out of it, that's just icing on the cake. Circuit breakers aren't designed to clear faults over and over again forever. That's why they're easy to replace.


So would you call for replacing the wire after a fault as well?


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## WarAdmiral

Hydro or hydraulic magnetic are one in the same.. 

http://www.newark.com/eta/8340-f410-p1m2-a2h0-20a/circuit-breaker-hydromagnetic-20a/dp/99K0852

As for humidity. It will trip a breaker. Thermal breakers are affect by the ambient tempeture. Hydraulic magnetic is not affected by ambient tempeture change. I have experienced several accounts were breakers (thermal)under normal conditions but when there is high humidity the will trip. You will notice on some specs. Breakers will have a humidity rating.


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## Big John

I'll be damned. They _are _brand new dashpot breakers. :blink:

I had no idea that technology was still being used. _Admiral, _have you ever actually installed one? Where would you use that?

-John


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## BBQ

WarAdmiral said:


> Hydro or hydraulic magnetic are one in the same..
> 
> http://www.newark.com/eta/8340-f410-p1m2-a2h0-20a/circuit-breaker-hydromagnetic-20a/dp/99K0852
> 
> As for humidity. It will trip a breaker. Thermal breakers are affect by the ambient tempeture. Hydraulic magnetic is not affected by ambient tempeture change. I have experienced several accounts were breakers (thermal)under normal conditions but when there is high humidity the will trip. You will notice on some specs. Breakers will have a humidity rating.


The breaker you show could not be used for branch circuit protection.

The breakers we use now are thermomagnetic, the short circuit protection is provided by the magnetic part and the overload protection is thermal.


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## user4818

BBQ said:


> The breaker you show could not be used for branch circuit protection.
> 
> The breakers we use now are thermomagnetic, the short circuit protection is provided by the magnetic part and the overload protection is thermal.


:nerd::nerd::nerd:


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## BBQ

Peter D said:


> :nerd::nerd:



More like this .......


:drink::nerd::drink::nerd::drink::drink:


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## user4818

BBQ said:


> More like this .......
> 
> 
> :drink::nerd::drink::nerd::drink::drink:


You're always a nerd. Tonight you happen to a drunk nerd.


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## BBQ

Peter D said:


> You're always a nerd. Tonight you happen to a drunk nerd.


Big fireworks down the street, getting juiced and going to ride my bike to see the show ........ hope I don't get a DWI. :jester:


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## user4818

BBQ said:


> Big fireworks down the street, getting juiced and going to ride my bike to see the show ........ hope I don't get a DWI. :jester:


Town fireworks?


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## BBQ

Peter D said:


> Town fireworks?


Yeah, they don't do any 4th of July ones, we have a Kids Day. (Four days really)

http://www.facebook.com/nakidsday


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## WarAdmiral

Bbx im fimiliar with circuit breaker technology. You might want to read this before writing again. Read the first paragraph. 

http://www.eaton.com/Electrical/USA.../HydraulicMagneticCircuitProtection/index.htm


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## WarAdmiral

I have used this technology wiring a gas molecule separation system in Portsmouth, nh


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## Zog

WarAdmiral said:


> Bbx im fimiliar with circuit breaker technology. You might want to read this before writing again. Read the first paragraph.
> 
> http://www.eaton.com/Electrical/USA.../HydraulicMagneticCircuitProtection/index.htm


Hydro means water, hydraulic refers to oil. Never heard of the term hydro magnetic before. Still can't see how humidity can effect trip times.


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## WarAdmiral

http://www.eaton.com/ecm/groups/public/@pub/@electrical/documents/content/ap00308001e.pdf 


Here is a link that will show that a breaker, not all breakers fall in this category. Many of the breakers that I have dealt with that trip in high humity were 15 years old or more. Now companies are taking into consideration the effects of


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## Zog

WarAdmiral said:


> http://www.eaton.com/ecm/groups/public/@pub/@electrical/documents/content/ap00308001e.pdf
> 
> 
> Here is a link that will show that a breaker, not all breakers fall in this category. Many of the breakers that I have dealt with that trip in high humity were 15 years old or more. Now companies are taking into consideration the effects of


They have a humidity rating due to corrosion factors, there is no technical reason humidty would effect trip times that I am aware of. 

Now if you have poor insulation high humidity might be enough to cause an insulation failure resulting in a breaker tripping (Just as it is designed to do) but you seem to be claiming humudity will effect the breaker directly, which is not true. 

Originally Posted by *WarAdmiral*  
_Dampness and humidity will cause a breaker to trip depending on its make up._


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## RMatthis

Big John said:


> That being said, in _Spark Master's _situation, I'd replace the breaker. If asked why, I'd answer "Because breakers aren't supposed to throw sparks." No need to make this complicated.
> 
> -John


I totally agree. I have even heard of, but never experienced, a dead short on a branch circuit blowing the main 100 or 200 Amp breaker. Again, I've never seen it, but if the breaker itself is faulty it could happen.


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## Spark Master

RMatthis said:


> I totally agree. I have even heard of, but never experienced, a dead short on a branch circuit blowing the main 100 or 200 Amp breaker. Again, I've never seen it, but if the breaker itself is faulty it could happen.


I've seen dead shorts throw the branch, and 100a 3 phase main. serious fault current.


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## Big John

RMatthis said:


> ...Again, I've never seen it, but if the breaker itself is faulty it could happen.


 There's no selective coordination in a house. During a serious a serious enough fault the main could trip and the branch breaker could still technically be working fine: For example, if you look at the trip curves for a 20A QO and 125A QO there's a lot of overlap in the tripping times once the current gets high enough to get into the "magnetic trip" range.

-John


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