# Prevailing wage. Really?



## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

We don't know. How much do you make and what benefits do you have? Can you afford to live there, own a house (buying) have 2.3 kids and 3 cars?


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## cowboyznindianz (Mar 4, 2012)

scrypps said:


> I'm a journeyman electrician in San Francisco. I know my shop isn't union, but I was originally happy with my wage. Then I looked up prevailing wages in this county, the base pay is $53/hr, plus benefits.
> 
> I honestly can't see this as realistic, I would love to make a six figure salary as a wireman, but have not met many who do.
> 
> So am I getting ripped off or should I just be happy I have full time work?


 
Ripped off......I made 130k in 2010 and only worked 10 months....:thumbup:


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## cowboyznindianz (Mar 4, 2012)

cowboyznindianz said:


> Ripped off......I made 130k in 2010 and only worked 10 months....:thumbup:


 
Last year was quite the different story but it was the worst its been in 30 plus years....


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

cowboyznindianz said:


> Ripped off......I made 130k in 2010 and only worked 10 months....:thumbup:





cowboyznindianz said:


> Last year was quite the different story but it was the worst its been in 30 plus years....


So if you take last year and add it to this year and divide by 2, you made what the OP made :laughing:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

cowboyznindianz said:


> Ripped off......I made 130k in 2010 and only worked 10 months....:thumbup:


 
IN MY OPINION It is not proper to discuss pay.

I would NEVER disclose on line or in person what I make.


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## cowboyznindianz (Mar 4, 2012)

dronai said:


> So if you take last year and add it to this year and divide by 2, you made what the OP made :laughing:


 
But I got much better at golf....:laughing:


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## cowboyznindianz (Mar 4, 2012)

brian john said:


> IN MY OPINION It is not proper to discuss pay.
> 
> I would NEVER disclose on line or in person what I make.


 
That was just my night job Brian....


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## SHOPROCKET1 (Feb 13, 2012)

I agree...I made just over 50k in 6 months doing electrical work this yr. The non union contractors know where the union contractors are at as far as wages go...they just stay a little below, pay their men a little less, tell their employees how lucky they are to have a job in this economy (union shops are doing this too), cut a few corners such as, cell phones, tools, material hauling in your personal vehicle, tool replacement, overtime pay, and bennies. You get what you think is good they keep the rest! Kind of smart thinking if you ask me. They have cabins,trips and toys....and you and your fellow sparkys fight over the crumbs. This is fact....I've been on both sides....


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## cowboyznindianz (Mar 4, 2012)

brian john said:


> IN MY OPINION It is not proper to discuss pay.
> 
> I would NEVER disclose on line or in person what I make.


You probably don't pay your guys that much.....:laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## SHOPROCKET1 (Feb 13, 2012)

brian john said:


> IN MY OPINION It is not proper to discuss pay.
> 
> I would NEVER disclose on line or in person what I make.


 
How can you not discuss pay on a thread about if wages are fair or not? :001_huh:


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## cowboyznindianz (Mar 4, 2012)

SHOPROCKET1 said:


> How can you not discuss pay on a thread about if wages are fair or not? :001_huh:


 
Because Brian is a have and not a have not...They look at things differently in his circles....Plus, he doesn't want one of his guys seeing this and say "WTF" you've only been paying me 20 bucks an hour and no overtime pay....:laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## SHOPROCKET1 (Feb 13, 2012)

cowboyznindianz said:


> Because Brian is a have and not a have not...They look at things differently in his circles....Plus, he doesn't want one of his guys seeing this and say "WTF" you've only been paying me 20 bucks an hour and no overtime pay....:laughing::laughing::laughing:


Hey, if he can get away with it.....and he has employees with their heads in the sand, good for him. I'm sure all his employees get a yrs. membership to the jelly of the month club for Xmas.:laughing:


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

cowboyznindianz said:


> But I got much better at golf....:laughing:


That is one of the best comebacks I have yet to see on this forum. :clap:


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

SHOPROCKET1 said:


> Hey, if he can get away with it.....and he has *employees with their heads in the sand*, good for him. I'm sure all his employees get a yrs. membership to the jelly of the month club for Xmas.:laughing:


.....his employees are union, everything is spelled out in black and white they way it should be.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

cowboyznindianz said:


> Because Brian is a have and not a have not...They look at things differently in his circles....Plus, he doesn't want one of his guys seeing this and say "WTF" you've only been paying me 20 bucks an hour and no overtime pay....:laughing::laughing::laughing:


I have looked at the scale in San Fran a few year back and ir =t was quite a few dollars better than Local 26's wages.

As For my pay, it allowed my to pay off the double wide in 30 years!


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## SHOPROCKET1 (Feb 13, 2012)

360max said:


> .....his employees are union, everything is spelled out in black and white they way it should be.



Roger that!:thumbsup: I guess I wasn't speaking directly to Brian....I know he is a Union contractor..but tell us Brian...would you pay your guys less and keep all #'s the same if you could? This is an honest ?


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## jbfan (Jan 22, 2007)

brian john said:


> I have looked at the scale in San Fran a few year back and ir =t was quite a few dollars better than Local 26's wages.
> 
> As For my pay, it allowed my to pay off the double wide in 30 years!


Satisfiying isn't it?
Pay off the doublewide just as it is time to replace it!:laughing:


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## airfieldsparky (Jun 10, 2011)

brian john said:


> IN MY OPINION It is not proper to discuss pay.
> 
> I would NEVER disclose on line or in person what I make.


I gotta agree my mother always said 3 things not to discuss in polite conversation salary, religion, and politics.


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## jbfan (Jan 22, 2007)

airfieldsparky said:


> I gotta agree my mother always said 3 things not to discuss in polite conversation salary, religion, and politics.


I agree with your mother, however this site is far from polite!:jester:


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## cowboyznindianz (Mar 4, 2012)

airfieldsparky said:


> I gotta agree my mother always said 3 things not to discuss in polite conversation salary, religion, and politics.


 
This is a thread asking about wages....You have to start at he beginning to get that though....


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Double post


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

SHOPROCKET1 said:


> Roger that!:thumbsup: I guess I wasn't speaking directly to Brian....I know he is a Union contractor..but tell us Brian...would you pay your guys less and keep all #'s the same if you could? This is an honest ?


 
I pay them what it would takes to retain them, I pay almost all over scale because that it what it takes to keep a top quality, electrical specialist. If I paid scale when other firms are offering them more to leave me, I’d lose top men. I put them in a pay range where deciding to leave has to be about more than just money, more like sorry work conditions and my sour personality. If I could get away with paying less money, you bet in a red hot second. I like money


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

jbfan said:


> Satisfiying isn't it?
> Pay off the doublewide just as it is time to replace it!:laughing:


I built a carport over it, protects the finish


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

airfieldsparky said:


> I gotta agree my mother always said 3 things not to discuss in polite conversation salary, religion, and politics.





cowboyznindianz said:


> This is a thread asking about wages....You have to start at he beginning to get that though....


Pretty sure wages are salary in that sense. :jester:


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

scrypps said:


> I'm a journeyman electrician in San Francisco. I know my shop isn't union, but I was originally happy with my wage. Then I looked up prevailing wages in this county, the base pay is $53/hr, plus benefits.
> 
> I honestly can't see this as realistic, I would love to make a six figure salary as a wireman, but have not met many who do.
> 
> So am I getting ripped off or should I just be happy I have full time work?


The price for electrical work, as far as the customer can tell, will be pretty close no matter if your shop is union or not. The difference is what you will read in post #23. Its a matter of character and team building. Brian knows what it takes to be the very best "go to contractor" in his niche and does what works best for him and his guys.

What you wont hear very often is the sacrifice it takes to maintain the team. This could be something like finding a way to get your guys a Christmas bonus when you are almost broke, you have a ton of bills to pay and your wife is pregnant.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

jrannis said:


> The price for electrical work, as far as the customer can tell, will be pretty close no matter if your shop is union or not.


BS meter starting to smoke ...........


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

BBQ said:


> BS meter starting to smoke ...........


Or, you can work for a rich guy like Bob does and he can pay everybody as much as they want. Just don't ask for a ride in his private jet..


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

jrannis said:


> Or, you can work for a rich guy like Bob does and he can pay everybody as much as they want. Just don't ask for a ride in his private jet..


Help me out here

I have leaned union members feel the following items are indisputable facts.

1) Union workers are better trained.

2) Union built is better built.

3) Now I learn from you that the cost to a customer _'will be pretty close no matter if your shop is union or not'_


Now put all that together and as a customer it should be a no brainer, obviously they would pay a 'little bit more' for all that added value.


But yet ....... union market share has been steadily declining for 30 something years ........ something is not adding up. :whistling2:


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Help me out here
> 
> I have leaned union members feel the following items are indisputable facts.
> 
> ...


1. Most
2.Most
3. True, pretty comparative and you non union guys always claim this too. 
4. Yet in my area the unions set the prevailing rate, your right it doesn't add up.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Loose Neutral said:


> 1. Most
> 2.Most
> 3. True, pretty comparative and you non union guys always claim this too.
> 4. Yet in my area the unions set the prevailing rate, your right it doesn't add up.


Keep them blinders on buddy, :laughing:


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Help me out here
> 
> I have leaned union members feel the following items are indisputable facts.
> 
> ...


Remember this:

I want you to earn more
you seem to want me to earn less.

The price of the job will remain the same.


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## SHOPROCKET1 (Feb 13, 2012)

jrannis said:


> Remember this:
> 
> I want you to earn more
> you seem to want me to earn less.
> ...


 
DING DING DING!!!!!! We have a winner!:thumbsup:


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## cowboyznindianz (Mar 4, 2012)

brian john said:


> I built a carport over it, protects the finish


 
You know I only raz you cuz your a good sport...:thumbup:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

cowboyznindianz said:


> You know I only raz you cuz your a good sport...:thumbup:


Hey no problem, I am sitting on my 2500 SQ FT deck, off the sun room of my 10,000 SQ FT house, overlooking my in ground pool adjacent to 2 of my 3 detached garages, wondering why it is taking the illegal lazy cleaners so long to clean the 89 windows as I am damn I want to pay them for two days. Oh well if Maria could hustle me another Martini, I guess I could say I could give a SHEET less.:no:

The double wide is for my live in maid and the grounds keeper.:blink:


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## SHOPROCKET1 (Feb 13, 2012)

brian john said:


> Hey no problem, I am sitting on my 2500 SQ FT deck, off the sun room of my 10,000 SQ FT house, overlooking my in ground pool adjacent to 2 of my 3 detached garages, wondering why it is taking the illegal lazy cleaners so long to clean the 89 windows as I am damn I want to pay them for two days. Oh well if Maria could hustle me another Martini, I guess I could say I could give a SHEET less.:no:
> 
> The double wide is for my live in maid and the grounds keeper.:blink:



Now thats funny!!!!:laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

BBQ said:


> ...
> Now put all that together and as a customer it should be a no brainer, obviously they would pay a 'little bit more' for all that added value. ...


It that were true we wouldn't have all of the big box retailers selling the imported junk that they sell. In todays world the price is the only thing that matters to most customers whether they are you or me or big companies.


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## SHOPROCKET1 (Feb 13, 2012)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> It that were true we wouldn't have all of the big box retailers selling the imported junk that they sell. In todays world the price is the only thing that matters to most customers whether they are you or me or big companies.



You are right Don. Union or non union makes little difference to the customer. $$$ talks and BS walks as they say. They only dumb asses that fight over who's better is us................it's stupid.


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

WWBBQD? What would BBQ do?:laughing:


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## SHOPROCKET1 (Feb 13, 2012)

brian john said:


> Hey no problem, I am sitting on my 2500 SQ FT deck, off the sun room of my 10,000 SQ FT house, overlooking my in ground pool adjacent to 2 of my 3 detached garages, wondering why it is taking the illegal lazy cleaners so long to clean the 89 windows as I am damn I want to pay them for two days. Oh well if Maria could hustle me another Martini, I guess I could say I could give a SHEET less.:no:
> 
> The double wide is for my live in maid and the grounds keeper.:blink:



That is funny but I played softball for a contractor that sponsored our team. He had a cabin, and at that cabin he had a 5000 sq ft garage!! That's 2ce the size of my house!!! He was bitching about our $2 raise though!!!


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

brian john said:


> I pay them what it would takes to retain them, I pay almost all over scale because that it what it takes to keep a top quality, electrical specialist. If I paid scale when other firms are offering them more to leave me, I’d lose top men. I put them in a pay range where deciding to leave has to be about more than just money, more like sorry work conditions and my sour personality. If I could get away with paying less money, you bet in a red hot second. I like money


specialist in one particular area of the electric field also charge quit a bit more for their specialty, thats why their called to begin with. Go out and hire a high voltage splicer for example, he/she is going to make over rate for sure.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

BBQ said:


> Pretty sure wages are salary in that sense. :jester:


 different site different rules :whistling2: jester


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

I have yet to hear a non union guy complain about working on a prevailing rate job, most seem happy as...... (their probably happy to see the owner pockets deflate a little)


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## walkerj (May 13, 2007)

360max said:


> I have yet to hear a non union guy complain about working on a prevailing rate job, most seem happy as...... (their probably happy to see the owner pockets deflate a little)


Prevailing wage is stupid. 

All it does is instigate problems among the guys if they don't make quite that much or if the ratio is wrong one of the apprentices gets PW. 
Which one?

Also a thorn in the side of a non union contractor because of the limited pool of the apprentices within the company.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

walkerj said:


> Prevailing wage is stupid.
> 
> All it does is instigate problems among the guys if they don't make quite that much or if the ratio is wrong one of the apprentices gets PW.
> Which one?
> ...


...since when is a decent, liveable wage stupid, please, speak for yourself.


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## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

360max said:


> ...since when is a decent, liveable wage stupid, please, speak for yourself.


 
Just depends on where you live in this big old country. None of the IBEW locals here pay that much better or have benefits better than most large EC's here. Union and non-union work side by side here, never saw that in Calif. If you check you will see a lot of locals only have a 401K and the international retirement, no vacation, health insurance only lasts about 60 days after lay-off, then you work another 90 days to get it started again. Most union guys here try to tramps after they turn out. I have worked with guys with over twenty years but only recently worked local because there is no work for the travelers. When you start seeing only between 3%-10% market share it is time to hit the road.


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## SHOPROCKET1 (Feb 13, 2012)

walkerj said:


> Prevailing wage is stupid.
> 
> All it does is instigate problems among the guys if they don't make quite that much or if the ratio is wrong one of the apprentices gets PW.
> Which one?
> ...




Oh NO! Apprentices and their problems are not our worry! If your contractor has to be out of ratio because they bid the job tight...too bad for them. Why is that your problem? A license is a good thing! You wait til you are out of work and a shop has 5 app. to 2 JW'S working and see how that burns your ass! You dont have to feel guilty for making a great wage you know! We work hard and do dangerous work for a living.


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## walkerj (May 13, 2007)

360max said:


> ...since when is a decent, liveable wage stupid, please, speak for yourself.


Nothing wrong with it but there is no reason to mandate it. 
It makes government projects cost more. 
Last time I checked, government projects use taxpayer dollars. 
JMSHO


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## walkerj (May 13, 2007)

rlc3854 said:


> Just depends on where you live in this big old country. None of the IBEW locals here pay that much better or have benefits better than most large EC's here. Union and non-union work side by side here, never saw that in Calif. If you check you will see a lot of locals only have a 401K and the international retirement, no vacation, health insurance only lasts about 60 days after lay-off, then you work another 90 days to get it started again. Most union guys here try to tramps after they turn out. I have worked with guys with over twenty years but only recently worked local because there is no work for the travelers. When you start seeing only between 3%-10% market share it is time to hit the road.


I wish it wasn't like that here. 
I believe in everyone getting a piece of the action.


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## cowboyznindianz (Mar 4, 2012)

brian john said:


> Hey no problem, I am sitting on my 2500 SQ FT deck, off the sun room of my 10,000 SQ FT house, overlooking my in ground pool adjacent to 2 of my 3 detached garages, wondering why it is taking the illegal lazy cleaners so long to clean the 89 windows as I am damn I want to pay them for two days. Oh well if Maria could hustle me another Martini, I guess I could say I could give a SHEET less.:no:
> 
> The double wide is for my live in maid and the grounds keeper.:blink:


 
I knew you were a republican....:laughing::laughing::laughing::yes::yes::yes::001_tongue:


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## cowboyznindianz (Mar 4, 2012)

walkerj said:


> Nothing wrong with it but there is no reason to mandate it.
> It makes government projects cost more.
> Last time I checked, government projects use taxpayer dollars.
> JMSHO


 
And those tax dollars keep many trades people employed on government funded projects....kind of like the union, pay a little in dues and get higher wages and benefits for it....


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

walkerj said:


> Nothing wrong with it but there is no reason to mandate it.
> It makes government projects cost more.
> Last time I checked, government projects use taxpayer dollars.
> JMSHO


,.....without prevailing wage on projects, the pay gets lowered, owners pocket even more money, and the benefits go down the tube.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

cowboyznindianz said:


> I knew you were a republican....:laughing::laughing::laughing::yes::yes::yes::001_tongue:


all repubs have that type of house, you should see Harry's :laughing::laughing:


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

I have never understood the union's love affair with the democrats. Big labor has always done its best when big business does its best...that does not happen under democratic leadership.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> I have never understood the union's love affair with the democrats. Big labor has always done its best when big business does its best...that does not happen under democratic leadership.


two words, Bill Clinton


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## walkerj (May 13, 2007)

cowboyznindianz said:


> And those tax dollars keep many trades people employed on government funded projects....kind of like the union, pay a little in dues and get higher wages and benefits for it....


Over 1/2 our work is government projects so I know. 
They are not all PW though. 



360max said:


> ,.....without prevailing wage on projects, the pay gets lowered, owners pocket even more money, and the benefits go down the tube.


Owner/contractors Go for the same profit margin regardless of what they bid they job for. 
Actually, more profit is made the higher the pay for the men if productive. 

A well managed PW job can make more than a 'going rate' job

We recently made 32% on a PW low bid job. 
I will take 32% jobs all day PW or not.


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## 19kilosparky984 (Sep 14, 2011)

360max said:


> ,.....without prevailing wage on projects, the pay gets lowered, owners pocket even more money, and the benefits go down the tube.



Layoff the kool aid.

The only thing prevailing wage does is hurt the Americain taxpayer and bring in more money for the union leaders.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

I don't know why people are so interested in others making less money than it takes to live in a particular area.
Prevailing wages are carefully calculated for each area. What makes anyone here an expert? 
One more thing to consider. The way union wages are tiered are similar to the way you would see enlisted military compensation.
If you are an E5, you would get E5 pay and what ever housing allowance for the area you live (unless you lived on base or whatever). Plus combat pay, sea pay, etc.
This seems to work out well when you are managing a large amount of people. Similar to the tier levels public and national private companies. You might be an Electrician I, or Electrician II and go as high as you are able but like the military if you know the guy next to you is an E5, he gets the same pay as you.
So, why hate a system that is good enough for our military?
If I am doing a job in a particular area and I want to hire local people, how do I calculate the labor rate? A prevailing wage rate would be a nice tool to have. What do you tell your family when you come off of a prevailing wage job and go back to sub-standard wages. Is that all you are worth? 
If the few bucks it costs to pay you a decent wage is going to make the job unprofitable, then someone is not bidding correctly.
If electricians would stick together and keep their wages stable, it would help the contractor too.
Can't we have some structure? 
or 
Is it just easier to destroy something than try to build on what we have?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

360max said:


> two words, Bill Clinton


The major growth under Bill Clinton was IT an almost 100% open shop work force, the construction of data centers did employ many union tradesmen, but most of these were existing union men and the union growth did not increase under Clinton.

I have always said if you truly want to do well in the political forum as a lobbyist or association, you spread that cash around. When you give 97% to one side as the IBEW does, that party takes you for granted and you become nothing but a guaranteed pawn willing to bank roll the party that gives you very little bang for your buck.

Spread that cash around and you would get more help from both sides of the aisle. The union is getting very little for all that money they put out there, why not try a 60 40 split for a few election cycles and see if it works. They would be no worse off than they are now.

But most unions are stuck in the past of Dems or nothing, and will continue to bankroll a group that see's the union as nothing but a place to fund their campaign, with very little return on investment.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

brian john said:


> I have always said if you truly want to do well in the political forum as a lobbyist or association, you spread that cash around.


Yup, that's what big business does, buys both sides so that no matter who wins, they have influence and get "favors".

It just goes to show how the union is out flanked by big business.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

hardworkingstiff said:


> Yup, that's what big business does, buys both sides so that no matter who wins, they have influence and get "favors".
> 
> I*t just goes to show how the union is out flanked by big business*.



The union is outflanked by their own idealogy in this caae. Swallow some bitter medicine and hand cash out to what they see as the enemy and the opposition will soon do their bidding. You pit the Dems against Rebs for your cash dollars and they will sone fight over who can do the most for you.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

OK so then the plan is to...

Relevant:
Everything about political fundraising is changing right now, because of the 2010 Supreme Court decision in Citizens United vs. Federal Election Commission. Since then, "Super PACs" have been able to funnel huge amounts of anonymous money into races. Producer Ben Calhoun shares the example of Ami Bera, whose run for Congress was dramatically affected by money from a Super PAC.

Link:

http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/461/take-the-money-and-run-for-office


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

I worked a prevailing wage job last fall, and what bugged me the most was that the electricians were some of the lowest paid guys on the job. The gentlemen of questionable immigration status who were sheetrocking were making 20 bucks an hour more than I was! So suuuuuuuuurreee, the government carefully calculates prevailing wage. Yup. They neeeevvver screw anything up. :laughing:

For most businesses, when you see just how little the owner is getting personally, with all the crap they have to deal with, it definitely opens up your eyes. I know it did mine. I do want my boss to be successful, no matter what company I work for, because if my boss does well, then it DOES trickle down, no matter what they teach you at the local.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Going_Commando said:


> I worked a prevailing wage job last fall, and what bugged me the most was that the electricians were some of the lowest paid guys on the job. The gentlemen of questionable immigration status who were sheetrocking were making 20 bucks an hour more than I was! So suuuuuuuuurreee, the government carefully calculates prevailing wage. Yup. They neeeevvver screw anything up. :laughing:
> 
> For most businesses, when you see just how little the owner is getting personally, with all the crap they have to deal with, it definitely opens up your eyes. I know it did mine. I do want my boss to be successful, no matter what company I work for, because if my boss does well, then it DOES trickle down, no matter what they teach you at the local.


Certain "trade organizations" work full time to corrupt the data that is collected for the prevailing wage calculations.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

jrannis said:


> Certain "trade organizations" work full time to corrupt the data that is collected for the prevailing wage calculations.


And certain labor organizations work to prop up wages. The issue I posted is how the trades organization spend their political dollars. Spend a little on the other party and you might get something for your investment.


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## cowboyznindianz (Mar 4, 2012)

brian john said:


> And certain labor organizations work to prop up wages. The issue I posted is how the trades organization spend their political dollars. Spend a little on the other party and you might get something for your investment.


 
And Brian might get a bigger house with a bigger deck...LOL....:laughing:And a couple more illegals so the lawn gets done faster and the martinis keep on comin....:thumbup:


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## cowboyznindianz (Mar 4, 2012)

Going_Commando said:


> I worked a prevailing wage job last fall, and what bugged me the most was that the electricians were some of the lowest paid guys on the job. The gentlemen of questionable immigration status who were sheetrocking were making 20 bucks an hour more than I was! So suuuuuuuuurreee, the government carefully calculates prevailing wage. Yup. They neeeevvver screw anything up. :laughing:
> 
> For most businesses, when you see just how little the owner is getting personally, with all the crap they have to deal with, it definitely opens up your eyes. I know it did mine. I do want my boss to be successful, no matter what company I work for, because if my boss does well, then it DOES trickle down, no matter what they teach you at the local.


The union company I worked for at the refinery pulled me aside and gave me a decent cash bonus on the last big capitol project which paid for some very nice furniture in my Lake Tahoe cabin....I was even able to pay for the illegals to build me a new fence....:whistling2:


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

360max said:


> two words, Bill Clinton


Unions were in the democratic camp long before he was even born.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

Everyone has an agenda to fit their needs.


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## SHOPROCKET1 (Feb 13, 2012)

brian john said:


> And certain labor organizations work to prop up wages. The issue I posted is how the trades organization spend their political dollars. Spend a little on the other party and you might get something for your investment.


You are right Brian, we as the little people have very little in common with anyone in Washington, right or left. I think if people did research and didn't just vote or give dollars to a certain party, we could actually get some of those pigs out and some new people in that don't have their hands in every special interest group that give them $. The DFL let us as labor down I think. They are big business too!


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## amptech (Sep 21, 2007)

The idea that prevailing wage is carefully and accurately calculated to reflect the actual optimum pay rate that exists in an area is a nice theory but rarely true. In the area I live and work in the "prevailing wage" amounts to a 26% wage increase for a union journeyman electrician. If the union electrician is already receiving the best wage and benefit package how does "prevailing wage" amount to an increase for the top wage/benefit package already paid in the area? Conversely, I bid a prevailing wage project in another part of my state a few years ago where the listed prevailing wage was below what I was paying. I could not be competitive in the bidding without a wage reduction which was not going to happen. That was a rare exception. More often than not a PW job means more money for the employees, union or not. For a contractor to competitively bid and win a PW job he/she has to be efficient, have a squared away workforce and be able to accept a smaller profit margin. Those are the only variables to find any wiggle room. Wages and benefits are fixed.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

I had always thought the PW was based on union scale plus the benefit package to arrive at a total hourly rate.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

brian john said:


> I had always thought the PW was based on union scale plus the benefit package to arrive at a total hourly rate.


That was my understanding as well. I thought the whole point of prevailing wage was to allow for an even playing field between union and non-union contractors out of "fairness". Then again, I couldn't tell you what union scale is in NH since I don't know of any union contractors in the state. The only IBEW companies I know are the utilities, but most of the work ends up getting done by non-union contractors anyways.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

It is supposed to be the wage that is paid to the majority of the workers of that trade in that area. It is set by contractors reporting the wages they pay. In many cases it is based on the union wage because those contractors make the wage reports and other contractors do not. 

It is not intended to level the playing field between union and non-union contractors. It is intended to prevent a contractor bringing in workers from other areas that will work for less than the 'prevailing wage" in the area where the project is being built.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> It is supposed to be the wage that is paid to the majority of the workers of that trade in that area. It is set by contractors reporting the wages they pay. In many cases it is based on the union wage because those contractors make the wage reports and other contractors do not.


Could it be this is done in conduction with NECA or the IBEW or possibly those organizations doing the repairing for the contractors?





> It is not intended to level the playing field between union and non-union contractors. It is intended to prevent a contractor bringing in workers from other areas that will work for less than the 'prevailing wage" in the area where the project is being built.


I think (at least around here) it works to level the labor cost between open shops and union.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

brian john said:


> I had always thought the PW was based on union scale plus the benefit package to arrive at a total hourly rate.


This was the case until the ABC, IEC, and The Latin Builders Association began injecting very low wages into the formula. Not really to pass along any savings the end consumer but to work the system a bit for the sake of that nasty little word "profit".
Smart moves like this drive skilled people from the building trades, dumb down the workforce and lowers the quality of work.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

brian john said:


> ...I think (at least around here) it works to level the labor cost between open shops and union.


That is how it works in most areas, but that was never the intent of the law.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

Going_Commando said:


> That was my understanding as well.* I thought the whole point of prevailing wage was to allow for an even playing field between union and non-union contractors out of "fairness"*. Then again, I couldn't tell you what union scale is in NH since I don't know of any union contractors in the state. The only IBEW companies I know are the utilities, but most of the work ends up getting done by non-union contractors anyways.


....that's the Davis-Bacon Act, it states that whether your union or non union, you have to pay all the workers on certain jobs prevailing rate.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

360max said:


> ....that's the Davis-Bacon Act, it states that whether your union or non union, you have to pay all the workers on certain jobs prevailing rate.


No, it was way before that.
Think of how mad folks get when they talk about people sneaking into the US and working for less than minimum wage.

Then you will begin to understand.


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## cowboyznindianz (Mar 4, 2012)

amptech said:


> The idea that prevailing wage is carefully and accurately calculated to reflect the actual optimum pay rate that exists in an area is a nice theory but rarely true. In the area I live and work in the "prevailing wage" amounts to a 26% wage increase for a union journeyman electrician. If the union electrician is already receiving the best wage and benefit package how does "prevailing wage" amount to an increase for the top wage/benefit package already paid in the area? Conversely, I bid a prevailing wage project in another part of my state a few years ago where the listed prevailing wage was below what I was paying. I could not be competitive in the bidding without a wage reduction which was not going to happen. That was a rare exception. More often than not a PW job means more money for the employees, union or not. For a contractor to competitively bid and win a PW job he/she has to be efficient, have a squared away workforce and be able to accept a smaller profit margin. Those are the only variables to find any wiggle room. Wages and benefits are fixed.


prevailing wage is just cash in hand instead of a benefit package....that makes it so a non union shop who may not have up to par benefits puts the money on the check...the prevailing wage is usually pretty close to what a union shop would pay his employee with benefits included but not seen on the take home...your just seeing the money on the check and the employee has to take care of his own benefits with the additional dollars per hour on the take home....:whistling2:


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> It is supposed to be the wage that is paid to the majority of the workers of that trade in that area. It is set by contractors reporting the wages they pay. In many cases it is based on the union wage because those contractors make the wage reports and other contractors do not.
> 
> It is not intended to level the playing field between union and non-union contractors. It is intended to prevent a contractor bringing in workers from other areas that will work for less than the 'prevailing wage" in the area where the project is being built.


Don,

I've been on a PW job now for almost a year

they ship in Mexicans, pay the 'lead man' PW, and the rest min wage

so i just don't see that playing field working very well here

~CS~


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> Don,
> 
> I've been on a PW job now for almost a year
> 
> ...


than call the dept of labor dept,* must be non union*


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## SHOPROCKET1 (Feb 13, 2012)

360max said:


> than call the dept of labor dept,* must be non union*




Nah he's doing fine and wouldn't want to raise any flags! Just wordsmith the dept of labor!:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

chicken steve said:


> Don,
> 
> I've been on a PW job now for almost a year
> 
> ...


 I am aware of some very large fines against the contractor and large amounts of back pay to workers on PW jobs when the workers were not paid what the law required. 
There are also kick back schemes where the contractor pays the guys the correct wage, but the workers give part of it back. There are lots of ways to get around rules.


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## airfieldsparky (Jun 10, 2011)

360max said:


> than call the dept of labor dept, must be non union


I got a buddy in the jersey city union says he wired an apartment building just him and a foreman were union, the rest were sub contracted illegals that actually did the wiring...


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

I worked at a firm that did what Don said, I had quit right before all this went down. The owner was caught and fined, he had to give back pay to the workers.
He brought them in and asked them to sign a paper saying he had paid them, and he would give them a $1,000.00, if they did not sign they would receive back pay and be fired. Every employee signed and took the $1,000.00 cash. At least one guy I knew was owed more than he earned in a year for non scale jobs.

I was flabbergasted that they men did not ask for the money they were owed.


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## 19kilosparky984 (Sep 14, 2011)

airfieldsparky said:


> I got a buddy in the jersey city union says he wired an apartment building just him and a foreman were union, the rest were sub contracted illegals that actually did the wiring...


So why didn't he just call the hall. Yet another bs story.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> Don,
> 
> I've been on a PW job now for almost a year
> 
> ...


 
Ship them in ? You don't have any resident Mexicans ?


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

airfieldsparky said:


> I got a buddy in the jersey city union says he wired an apartment building just him and a foreman were union, the rest were sub contracted illegals that actually did the wiring...


your buddy is non union


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

dronai said:


> Ship them in ? You don't have any resident Mexicans ?


...are they normally at the corner of any orange or blue store in any city or poverty stricken area?


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## airfieldsparky (Jun 10, 2011)

360max said:


> your buddy is non union


Nope he was def. Union he left last year when he passed the fdny exam. I don't believe he would have a reason to lie to me. When we were talking about it I was doing residential at the time and I mentioned it must be nice to work with all american guys and he told me that is not always the case.


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## qckrun (May 18, 2009)

cowboyznindianz said:


> prevailing wage is just cash in hand instead of a benefit package....that makes it so a non union shop who may not have up to par benefits puts the money on the check...the prevailing wage is usually pretty close to what a union shop would pay his employee with benefits included but not seen on the take home...your just seeing the money on the check and the employee has to take care of his own benefits with the additional dollars per hour on the take home....:whistling2:


You are so far off base with your understanding of PW work in California.

Prevailing wage is NOT just cash in hand instead of a benefit package.

The contractor has the option, at least they did have the option, to pay you full scale (SF is $75.99) or pay your benefits and retirement and base pay. Most do not give you full package, because of legal issues. 

If your getting $53.xx in SF county, your not getting a correct wage. SF is the highest paid county in California followed by San Mateo, and Alameda. Alameda county is $52.65 + Benefits, and Retirement (total package is like 69$/hr).

IF your getting $53.xx I'd talk to your boss, because it should be a couple dollars more, more in the neighborhood of $55-57/hr, depending on year of bid.


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## cowboyznindianz (Mar 4, 2012)

qckrun said:


> You are so far off base with your understanding of PW work in California.
> 
> Prevailing wage is NOT just cash in hand instead of a benefit package.
> 
> ...


so, do they have the option or not...sounds like your unsure of your understanding also....guess we could both just google it and find out exactly....:laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

dronai said:


> Ship them in ? You don't have any resident Mexicans ?


very few, it would be unusual to see a 1/2 dz in any one place here

so they pack them all into an suv, more than it would have seatbelts for, and they drive 11-14 hrs straight up to a hotel here

my point being,i'm dubious that they are paid PW, their travel gas , a_nd _hotel rooms _vs._ local help off the street 

~CS~


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> . There are lots of ways to get around rules.


i think that's what must be going on here, but i've no way to prove it, nor will calling in the state be any good....

~CS~


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

I don't imagine that the next highest bidder would be happy to hear about how he lost the job.


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

360max said:


> ...since when is a decent, liveable wage stupid, please, speak for yourself.


 

Please acuurately define what a "decent liveable wage" is.

Please name the source also, if it's not too much trouble.

One more please. Please tell us where the line is, between "decent liveable wage" and "greed". 

Thanks for your time.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

jrannis said:


> I don't imagine that the next highest bidder would be happy to hear about how he lost the job.


 Often that next bidder is the one who triggers the enforcement


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## bubb_tubbs (Apr 15, 2012)

airfieldsparky said:


> I gotta agree my mother always said 3 things not to discuss in polite conversation salary, religion, and politics.


So three of the mere handful of things that are actually worth discussing or debating?

What's left? The weather? Distant relatives you don't give a damn about? Boring sporting events?


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## SHOPROCKET1 (Feb 13, 2012)

bubb_tubbs said:


> So three of the mere handful of things that are actually worth discussing or debating?
> 
> What's left? The weather? Distant relatives you don't give a damn about? Boring sporting events?


Abortion rights...being very sarcastic............................in MN fireworks, and stadiums.


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