# Romex Cables into Panels



## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

putting multiple panels next to each other then making it fit..... in ur case, can u use top and bottom kos and make it work?


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## htneighbors (Jan 23, 2009)

Panel 1 (on the left): bottom entry is not too accessible. 
Panel 2: I should be able to get some of them to the bottom and then up into it. 

Custom home, worthless information until after the fact. Customer acting as their own GC. Poured stem walls & footers without mentioning it to me & we had no conduits in the ground for incoming service, etc...


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

htneighbors said:


> Panel 1 (on the left): bottom entry is not too accessible.
> Panel 2: I should be able to get some of them to the bottom and then up into it.
> 
> Custom home, worthless information until after the fact. Customer acting as their own GC. Poured stem walls & footers without mentioning it to me & we had no conduits in the ground for incoming service, etc...


CHANGE ORDER TIME


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

I know it’s too late but square d has those “qwik grip” connectors, looks like you could get a ton of romex through them although I’ve never used them and I know you already have your panels mounted.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

I have a wonderfully spicy idea....


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## ohm it hertz (Dec 2, 2020)




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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

Majewski said:


> I have a wonderfully spicy idea....


Well?……


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

ohm it hertz said:


> View attachment 161723


yeah thats not even compliant...


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## ohm it hertz (Dec 2, 2020)

Majewski said:


> yeah thats not even compliant...


Funny, inspector says otherwise.


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

Majewski said:


> yeah thats not even compliant...


I haven’t done it myself but I’ve heard people say as long as the pvc is 24” or less you can stuff the crap out of it with no derating. I just don’t like the idea of the wires not being clamped securely.


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

It does look neat though, that’s usually half the battle in our world.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

ohm it hertz said:


> Funny, inspector says otherwise.


and that matters how?


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## matt1124 (Aug 23, 2011)

I’ve found that the number of knockouts on top happens to coincide to the number of wires I want to deal with in a single panel 😁


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## wcord (Jan 23, 2011)

I've cut a 1.5 inch wide slot in one of the studs to access the side KOs. Then a **** ton of nail plates to protect the cables


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## JohnJ65 (May 8, 2008)

Two 30 space panels next to each other. Does not solve your immediate problem.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Put in a gutter, make more KO’s, mount the panel sideways…


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

99cents said:


> Put in a gutter, make more KO’s, mount the panel sideways…


Can’t mount the panel sideways here.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

yankeejoe1141 said:


> Can’t mount the panel sideways here.


he knows that


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

Majewski said:


> he knows that


oh…well now everyone knows it lol!


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## ohm it hertz (Dec 2, 2020)

Majewski said:


> and that matters how?


Do you have any spicy ideas for the OP or not?


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

ohm it hertz said:


> Do you have any spicy ideas for the OP or not?


i do


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

So you put in a 23 inch piece of PVC, cram as many cables as you can into it and call it good. But put 10 current carrying conductors through a 2x10 and it’s a violation.


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

backstay said:


> So you put in a 23 inch piece of PVC, cram as many cables as you can into it and call it good. But put 10 current carrying conductors through a 2x10 and it’s a violation.


Only if you get caught!


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## htneighbors (Jan 23, 2009)

May have to call the inspector and have a discussion. 👍🏻


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

backstay said:


> So you put in a 23 inch piece of PVC, cram as many cables as you can into it and call it good. But put 10 current carrying conductors through a 2x10 and it’s a violation.


coz fk 312.5c eh? lol


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

Majewski said:


> coz fk 312.5c eh? lol


I hear some code book pages flipping frantically…mine will be too in the morning since I’m not cool enough to have the code book on my phone.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Two Things: One thing is the two cables running between the two pvc conduits are technically exposed to physical damage, although that is the inspectors call in any case. In Hawaii we have perfected something perfect for that. 
Two thing is how come you wasted all that extra cable at the panels? I bet you that works out to a whole 250' bag's worth. Which used to be cheap, not anymore.........


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Majewski said:


> coz fk 312.5c eh? lol


312.5 g. is what this thread needs to be looking at...............


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

macmikeman said:


> Two Things: One thing is the two cables running between the two pvc conduits are technically exposed to physical damage, although that is the inspectors call in any case. In Hawaii we have perfected something perfect for that.
> Two thing is how come you wasted all that extra cable at the panels? I bet you that works out to a whole 250' bag's worth. Which used to be cheap, not anymore.........


I was thinking the same thing about the wasted cable. 12/2 NM is about $165.00 a roll. I have been cutting it pretty close and using up all the scrap for the past year.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

ohm it hertz said:


> Do you have any spicy ideas for the OP or not?


As far as spicy, I am partial to the Cholula Chipotle one.


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

It looks like you have a small closet behind the main panel. Can you just fur out behind that panel and lose 3.5" of space. No one would ever notice the loss of closest space. ??


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Easy said:


> It looks like you have a small closet behind the main panel. Can you just fur out behind that panel and lose 3.5" of space. Who would ever notice the loss in closest space?


Nope, that's Grandma's bedroom..........


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

Easy said:


> It looks like you have a small closet behind the main panel. Can you just fur out behind that panel and lose 3.5" of space. No one would ever notice the loss of closest space. ??


lol you like everything ... Majewski


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

macmikeman said:


> Nope, that's Grandma's bedroom..........


Put an narrow niche on each side to store her slipper.


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## ohm it hertz (Dec 2, 2020)

macmikeman said:


> 312.5 g. is what this thread needs to be looking at...............


And 310.15(b)3. Not more than 24", but, not shorter than 18" (312.5c). Very specific loophole to avoid adjustment factors.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

ohm it hertz said:


> And 310.15(b)3.


such a dumb code.so redundant


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

yankeejoe1141 said:


> I hear some code book pages flipping frantically…mine will be too in the morning since I’m not cool enough to have the code book on my phone.


Cool kids have all the toys. 

(
C) Cables.



Where cable is used, each cable shall be secured to the cabinet, cutout box, or meter socket enclosure.
Exception No. 1: 
Cables with entirely nonmetallic sheaths shall be permitted to enter the top of a surface-mounted enclosure through one or more nonflexible raceways not less than 450 mm (18 in.) and not more than 3.0 m (10 ft) in length, provided all of the following conditions are met: 

(1)
Each cable is fastened within 300 mm (12 in.), measured along the sheath, of the outer end of the raceway.
(2)
The raceway extends directly above the enclosure and does not penetrate a structural ceiling.
(3)
A fitting is provided on each end of the raceway to protect the cable(s) from abrasion and the fittings remain accessible after installation.
(4)
The raceway is sealed or plugged at the outer end using approved means so as to prevent access to the enclosure through the raceway.
(5)
The cable sheath is continuous through the raceway and extends into the enclosure beyond the fitting not less than 6 mm (1⁄4 in.).
(6)
The raceway is fastened at its outer end and at other points in accordance with the applicable article.
(7)
Where installed as conduit or tubing, the cable fill does not exceed the amount that would be permitted for complete conduit or tubing systems by Table 1 of Chapter 9 of this Code and all applicable notes thereto. Note 2 to the tables in Chapter 9 does not apply to this condition


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## MotoGP1199 (Aug 11, 2014)

Keep in mind it says only for a surface mounted enclosue.


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## MotoGP1199 (Aug 11, 2014)

Or go with more panels.


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## zoltan (Mar 15, 2010)

Too late now maybe, but 12-2-2 and 14-2-2 could have helped


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

zoltan said:


> Too late now maybe, but 12-2-2 and 14-2-2 could have helped


Not really cost effective at material stages


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

MotoGP1199 said:


> Or go with more panels.
> View attachment 161729


My legs are so sore now just looking at that and thinking about having to stand there making all that up.......


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

macmikeman said:


> My legs are so sore now just looking at that and thinking about having to stand there making all that up.......


Like, i died


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

backstay said:


> Cool kids have all the toys.


You are exactly who I was thinking of when I typed that, I just didn't stay up late enough for you to post the article in there.


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

zoltan said:


> Too late now maybe, but 12-2-2 and 14-2-2 could have helped


I thought about using that recently until I saw the price, more than double regular two wire w/ground....wtf?


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

The setup @ohm it hertz has looks like it might be a headache with that narrow panel and the feeder for the subpanel coming out the top. If you put a trough or box within nipple distance of the panel, you can terminate all the romex into the gutter, then pull the current carrying conductors through nipples into the panel, no jackets and paper in the nipple, and you can put a ground block up there so you don't have to take up space with grounds. 

In those photos in the OP, it looks a little challenging to find an accessible spot to put the trough / box, depending on how the room will be finished, but maybe on the other side of the wall from the panels, maybe up in the attic, I am not sure.


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

splatz said:


> The setup @ohm it hertz has looks like it might be a headache with that narrow panel and the feeder for the subpanel coming out the top. If you put a trough or box within nipple distance of the panel, you can terminate all the romex into the gutter, then pull the current carrying conductors through nipples into the panel, no jackets and paper in the nipple, and you can put a ground block up there so you don't have to take up space with grounds.
> 
> In those photos in the OP, it looks a little challenging to find an accessible spot to put the trough / box, depending on how the room will be finished, but maybe on the other side of the wall from the panels, maybe up in the attic, I am not sure.


The J-box could be mounted facing into Granma's closet. If it was in the ceiling of the closet then you could come into it from the side and the back and run multiple small conduit runs into the panel and avoid the head ache of derating. I think Granny would be ok with that.


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## matt1124 (Aug 23, 2011)

Raco 2711 rated for three cables….


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

ohm it hertz said:


> View attachment 161723



That is compliant but that panel is surface mounted you cannot do that if it were recessed as the original poster's panel


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Why is the bottom inaccessible? Just bring the wires down a different stud bay, such as the outside wall, and then up into the panel


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Why is the bottom inaccessible? Just bring the wires down a different stud bay, such as the outside wall, and then up into the panel


exactly


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## MotoGP1199 (Aug 11, 2014)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Why is the bottom inaccessible? Just bring the wires down a different stud bay, such as the outside wall, and then up into the panel


What he meant was ...."At the current romex prices, the bottom of the panel is inaccessible " 😆


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

MotoGP1199 said:


> What he meant was ...."At the current romex prices, the bottom of the panel is inaccessible " 😆


Did you see the pics and how much extra they pulled? They have money to burn on that project lol!


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

yankeejoe1141 said:


> Did you see the pics and how much extra they pulled? They have money to burn on that project lol!


Also notice there isn’t any #14. 12/3 switch loops become a $1 per foot, not to mention the boxes crammed with wires.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

backstay said:


> Also notice there isn’t any #14. 12/3 switch loops become a $1 per foot, not to mention the boxes crammed with wires.


well dude are u dumb, obviously it has to be yellow coz 12 is more betterer


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## matt1124 (Aug 23, 2011)

For a long time, the city here didn’t allow #14. Written into their amended code. They finally removed it, I think I’m one of the few that takes advantage of that.
“I don’t like that #14 wire, it’s just too flimsy” as they jam as many 12/2 will fit into each hole of a 18ci Carlon box.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

matt1124 said:


> For a long time, the city here didn’t allow #14. Written into their amended code. They finally removed it, I think I’m one of the few that takes advantage of that.
> “I don’t like that #14 wire, it’s just too flimsy” as they jam as many 12/2 will fit into each hole of a 18ci Carlon box.


ya its really stupid...a few spots still wont want/allow 14. isnt that dumb? idc what u think, it IS dumb lol


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Rats do not discriminate. They rape both at will.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

macmikeman said:


> Rats do not discriminate. They rape both at will.


aint that the truth..... but wait, 12 is just SO MUCH BETTERER


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

#12 is 100% safer ... it's the only way I roll ...


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

matt1124 said:


> For a long time, the city here didn’t allow #14. Written into their amended code. They finally removed it, I think I’m one of the few that takes advantage of that.
> “I don’t like that #14 wire, it’s just too flimsy” as they jam as many 12/2 will fit into each hole of a 18ci Carlon box.


That’s crazy, no 15 amp circuits.


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

backstay said:


> Also notice there isn’t any #14. 12/3 switch loops become a $1 per foot, not to mention the boxes crammed with wires.


You’re right, I didn’t even notice at first look. Have fun with those recessed can j boxes.


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## matt1124 (Aug 23, 2011)

yankeejoe1141 said:


> You’re right, I didn’t even notice at first look. Have fun with those recessed can j boxes.


One of the other sparks I know hates 14 wire and the wagos that come with the can lights. He cuts them all off and wire nuts on his #12 🤦‍♂️


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

matt1124 said:


> One of the other sparks I know hates 14 wire and the wagos that come with the can lights. He cuts them all off and wire nuts on his #12 🤦‍♂️


Screw that!


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Using #12 on lighting circuits in residential is disgusting. And at the end of the thing is a teeny fixture wire to connect to

Which makes it even more farcical.


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## Rainwater01 (Oct 6, 2015)

matt1124 said:


> Raco 2711 rated for three cables….
> View attachment 161738


I’d say the simplest solution is the best solution. I didn’t know these would accept three cables. I might have to switch brands. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

htneighbors said:


> Panel 1 (on the left): bottom entry is not too accessible.
> Panel 2: I should be able to get some of them to the bottom and then up into it.
> 
> Custom home, worthless information until after the fact. Customer acting as their own GC. Poured stem walls & footers without mentioning it to me & we had no conduits in the ground for incoming service, etc...


PPPPPPP

The 7 p's.

YOU dropped the ball. I know S**t rolls downhill, but your customer is uphill and you dropped the ball. Proper prior planning prevents piss-poor production That 2nd panel is in a stupid, dopey spot. You should've embraced 12/2/2 and 14/2/2 and 12/3 and 14/3 for your homeruns, not all that 2-wire.

Full disclosure: I enjoy a good spanking, verbal or otherwise. 😉 I get as good as I give, too. 

Now get some 1/2 or better yet 3/4 EMT and run some 6-10 circuit homeruns out to distribution boxes. Example, the behind-the-fridge outlet can carry the fridge and a secone SABC circuit. And then 2 more kitche circuits can land there too, all in conduit, a 4 & 11/16 box and that'll account for 4 cables into one KO right there.

My signature method of a 14/3 (back when AFCIs weren't a thing) homerun from a smoke detector. Then 2 x 14/2's from there. (Plenty room in a standard ceiling box, even a blue Carlon.) A bathroom 20 GFCI can be fed via a 12/3 along with the local Heat-vent-light circuit or any other local 20a'er.


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

LGLS said:


> PPPPPPP
> 
> The 7 p's.
> 
> ...


You sure know a lot about resi for a guy who always talks smack about the rope running monkeys out there.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

yankeejoe1141 said:


> You sure know a lot about resi for a guy who always talks smack about the rope running monkeys out there.


Coz hes a pro


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

Majewski said:


> Coz hes a pro


I was actually impressed with his tricks in that post.


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## Rainwater01 (Oct 6, 2015)

macmikeman said:


> Using #12 on lighting circuits in residential is disgusting. And at the end of the thing is a teeny fixture wire to connect to
> 
> Which makes it even more farcical.


If somebody wants a receptacle installed where there’s only a light switch there you’d probably be happier to add that to a 20 amp branch circuit than a 15 amp circuit I’d say. 

I used to run everything in 12 but since led has become ubiquitous I do all my lighting in 14 and it sure makes switch makeup a breeze. 

I noticed in some of these canless lights they don’t even have enough cubic inches to install 2 12/2 cables in them legally. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

Rainwater01 said:


> If somebody wants a receptacle installed where there’s only a light switch there you’d probably be happier to add that to a 20 amp branch circuit than a 15 amp circuit I’d say.
> 
> I used to run everything in 12 but since led has become ubiquitous I do all my lighting in 14 and it sure makes switch makeup a breeze.
> 
> ...


So if the lighting circuit is there first why bring it up to 20?


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## Rainwater01 (Oct 6, 2015)

yankeejoe1141 said:


> So if the lighting circuit is there first why bring it up to 20?


I’m not sure what you mean. I’m just saying if you open a switch box up and it’s the only place to get power from you’ll feel better seeing #12 rather than #14. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Rainwater01 said:


> I’m not sure what you mean. I’m just saying if you open a switch box up and it’s the only place to get power from you’ll feel better seeing #12 rather than #14.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I prefer 250


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## Rainwater01 (Oct 6, 2015)

Majewski said:


> I prefer 250


I prefer 500 lol


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

Rainwater01 said:


> I’m not sure what you mean. I’m just saying if you open a switch box up and it’s the only place to get power from you’ll feel better seeing #12 rather than #14.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I don’t have a problem adding an outlet to a 15amp circuit.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Rainwater01 said:


> I prefer 500 lol
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Yeah $500 bills! Lol


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

LGLS said:


> PPPPPPP
> 
> The 7 p's.
> 
> ...


C'mon, it's residential. Resi electricians don't have any emt, they use pvc for that.........


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

yankeejoe1141 said:


> You sure know a lot about resi for a guy who always talks smack about the rope running monkeys out there.


I should, I first broke into the trade nonunion in 1986 working for 3 chit residential contractors where the name of the game was get it done, quick, no benefits, $5.00 cash offf the books was the top pay and nobody made any money because any electrician can do that type of work. I then went to wirk as a book 4 RW out of local 25 for Newbridge electric who somehow was able to pay $15.90 an hour WITH a pension and full medical. The following year the pay went to 16.90 an hour. The 2 sons working for their dad who lived on Terry Road in Smithtown didn't make what I was leaving their pathetic chit shop for, and they told me how bad unions were... Funny how now I'm retired, stopped working at 50 and have assets and capital a 401k and a pension and his 2 sons are still renting that illegally converted raised ranch from their dad's estate.

And I learned everything I needed to know about residential wiring back then in under a year -that's why I moved on but others remain behind stuck in the mud like a stuck pig.


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

LGLS said:


> I should, I first broke into the trade nonunion in 1986 working for 3 chit residential contractors where the name of the game was get it done, quick, no benefits, $5.00 cash offf the books was the top pay and nobody made any money because any electrician can do that type of work. I then went to wirk as a book 4 RW out of local 25 for Newbridge electric who somehow was able to pay $15.90 an hour WITH a pension and full medical. The following year the pay went to 16.90 an hour. The 2 sons working for their dad who lived on Terry Road in Smithtown didn't make what I was leaving their pathetic chit shop for, and they told me how bad unions were... Funny how now I'm retired, stopped working at 50 and have assets and capital a 401k and a pension and his 2 sons are still renting that illegally converted raised ranch from their dad's estate.
> 
> And I learned everything I needed to know about residential wiring back then in under a year -that's why I moved on but others remain behind stuck in the mud like a stuck pig.


I was really impressed but I guess that’s because I enjoy it….oink oink baby!


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

yankeejoe1141 said:


> I was really impressed but I guess that’s because I enjoy it….oink oink baby!


Well hey, what's not to enjoy? Usually you work alone, blast the tunes, make your own layout, nobody getting in your way. Make a huge mess and just leave it...


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

LGLS said:


> Well hey, what's not to enjoy? Usually you work alone, blast the tunes, make your own layout, nobody getting in your way. Make a huge mess and just leave it...


Messes not allowed


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

LGLS said:


> Well hey, what's not to enjoy? Usually you work alone, blast the tunes, make your own layout, nobody getting in your way. Make a huge mess and just leave it...


I have had contractors go out of their way to commend me for NOT leaving a mess on a jobsite...but the rest is true.


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## Rainwater01 (Oct 6, 2015)

LGLS said:


> Well hey, what's not to enjoy? Usually you work alone, blast the tunes, make your own layout, nobody getting in your way. Make a huge mess and just leave it...


Were you watching me yesterday?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Rainwater01 (Oct 6, 2015)

yankeejoe1141 said:


> I have had contractors go out of their way to commend me for NOT leaving a mess on a jobsite...but the rest is true.


I had a general contractor who’s dad was a drill sergeant… he cured me of making messes when I was in my 20s. “I don’t want you cleaning up at the end of the day. I want you cleaning up all day!” 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

Rainwater01 said:


> I had a general contractor who’s dad was a drill sergeant… he cured me of making messes when I was in my 20s. “I don’t want you cleaning up at the end of the day. I want you cleaning up all day!”
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I like that approach!


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## Rainwater01 (Oct 6, 2015)

yankeejoe1141 said:


> I like that approach!


Yeah. The homeowner asked him where he was going with the dustpan and he said “I’m going to pour it in his driver seat. That’ll teach him” she stopped him  “I’m trying to save you from yourself…” he had a bunch of lines. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Is it really such an impossible chore to put all of the home runs in EMT or even Smurf?
I can't believe there are any savings with all of those extra ground wires and all of that extra plastic. 
Every time I see someone post a pic of walls and ceilings shellacked with Romex, all I can think of is how much toxic smoke it would make and how badly exposed rope looks.


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## ohm it hertz (Dec 2, 2020)

I wasn't aware single conductor thhn burns any cleaner. lol

But,

You have a point. I've been wanting to mix commercial grade work with resi as that's where I got my start. The problem is everything commercial requires more labor - bonding boxes, building raised covers, bonding bushings/locknuts, etc. It's not _that_ much labor, but there isn't much wiggle room in resi for profit. I've wanted to install a trough with EMT above my panels. Join all the rope with single conductors and enter the panel like you say. Maybe I'll do it that way on a job and turn some inspectors heads.


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## Matt Hermanson (Jul 18, 2009)

ohm it hertz said:


> View attachment 161723


You have some derating you have to do now.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

edit


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

Matt Hermanson said:


> You have some derating you have to do now.


See post number 36.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Almost Retired said:


> only if its a longer than 2 ft nipple
> other wise you can cram it full
> besides for 12 and 10 the derate up to 9 conductors still leaves you on the normal breaker size


who cares, still vios


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## Matt Hermanson (Jul 18, 2009)

LGLS said:


> PPPPPPP
> 
> The 7 p's.
> 
> ...


1/2" EMT has room for nine #12 THHN/THWN conductors.
Four ungrounded and four grounded conductors and you still have an ampacity of 21 amps in a dry location.


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## Matt Hermanson (Jul 18, 2009)

LGLS said:


> I should, I first broke into the trade nonunion in 1986 working for 3 chit residential contractors where the name of the game was get it done, quick, no benefits, $5.00 cash offf the books was the top pay and nobody made any money because any electrician can do that type of work. I then went to wirk as a book 4 RW out of local 25 for Newbridge electric who somehow was able to pay $15.90 an hour WITH a pension and full medical. The following year the pay went to 16.90 an hour. The 2 sons working for their dad who lived on Terry Road in Smithtown didn't make what I was leaving their pathetic chit shop for, and they told me how bad unions were... Funny how now I'm retired, stopped working at 50 and have assets and capital a 401k and a pension and his 2 sons are still renting that illegally converted raised ranch from their dad's estate.
> 
> And I learned everything I needed to know about residential wiring back then in under a year -that's why I moved on but others remain behind stuck in the mud like a stuck pig.


Union leadership sucks and only cares about themselves.
With that said I hate resi contractors who pay sub-McDonalds wages even more.


----------



## Matt Hermanson (Jul 18, 2009)

Southeast Power said:


> Is it really such an impossible chore to put all of the home runs in EMT or even Smurf?
> I can't believe there are any savings with all of those extra ground wires and all of that extra plastic.
> Every time I see someone post a pic of walls and ceilings shellacked with Romex, all I can think of is how much toxic smoke it would make and how badly exposed rope looks.


The house burns down so quickly, it really doesn't matter.

But yes you can rope multiple houses in the time it takes to pipe one.
So the labor is considerably more.

I can't bid new construction rope jobs unless I want to work for $10/hr, so I don't.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Matt Hermanson said:


> The house burns down so quickly, it really doesn't matter.
> 
> But yes you can rope multiple houses in the time it takes to pipe one.
> So the labor is considerably more.
> ...


youd still be rejected for being too high


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Majewski said:


> Messes not allowed


Things have changed in construction so much since the time I started. When I started my 1st deck job in NYC there were still old timers smoking Lucky Strikes (non-filtered) on the site and 3 sheets to the wind by lunch, having sent the apprentice out for a case of B-16's at coffee time. Now of course, not only is no smoking allowed on any construction site (Incl a steel deck job where there's NOTHING to burn!) but no drinking, and no napping, and sometimes no knives!... a I saw what the future had in store and that's why I took my objections right to the streets in the mid-90's. 

Literally, I started working for a fiber/ data contractor (outside plant) and I could smoke on the street (How do you tell a JW you ca't smoke when the pedestrians 2' away from your open manhole are sucking their Marlboros and Virginia Slims to their heart's content?) Worked an outside job ever since right up iuntil I stopped working. And in all that time I NEVER caught a cold, never caught the Flu, and never had any pansy suit bird dog me because it's always either too hot or too cold to step out from their ivory tower cubicle.


Majewski said:


> Messes not allowed


I actually am very neat. Saw one kid installing receptacles he looked for painter's tape and a box for 5 minutes while the other got right to work and poo-pooh'd the first for dawdling... but in the end the 1st apprentice got all the devices in without so much as a scrap of wire or insulation or garbage on the floor and the 2nd left a pile of grizzle at each location. The tape was to keep the box on the wall and prevented any wire cuttings from sliding down into anything other than the crap box.


yankeejoe1141 said:


> I have had contractors go out of their way to commend me for NOT leaving a mess on a jobsite...but the rest is true.


Well there's being neat and clean and there's being a pretentious suck up... 



Rainwater01 said:


> Were you watching me yesterday?


Sure, why would yesterday be any different?



Rainwater01 said:


> I had a general contractor who’s dad was a drill sergeant… he cured me of making messes when I was in my 20s. “I don’t want you cleaning up at the end of the day. I want you cleaning up all day!”


There's got to be a book of cool stuff drill sgt's do or say...



Matt Hermanson said:


> Union leadership sucks and only cares about themselves.
> With that said I hate resi contractors who pay sub-McDonalds wages even more.


Everyone I know in my local and outside my local who says that is really a 2nd or 3rd rate worker and/or person and is just buitter because their income level and work opportunities aren't as nice as say... mine. And then blame the union hierarchy for their own shortcomings because for some strange reason people like you think "brotherhood" means we all share in everything equally, except that workers like me have to carry the lazy leaners and slow blinkers like you. 

Now, there are some in union management that certainly do leave something to be desired but... that's what elections are for.



Matt Hermanson said:


> The house burns down so quickly, it really doesn't matter.
> 
> But yes you can rope multiple houses in the time it takes to pipe one.
> So the labor is considerably more.
> ...


In Chicago and it's surrounds it adds 1/2 a day to a typical 18 man-hour residential rough. That is not "considerably more. "


----------



## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

may not be considerably more, but it is still too much more
especially when you arent on the clock but getting paid by the job


----------



## Rainwater01 (Oct 6, 2015)

Matt Hermanson said:


> The house burns down so quickly, it really doesn't matter.
> 
> But yes you can rope multiple houses in the time it takes to pipe one.
> So the labor is considerably more.
> ...


I usually work for the same few general contractors that do custom homes. I’m not interested in a bid war to be the cheapest contractor. I like it when every trade wants to do a good job. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Almost Retired said:


> may not be considerably more, but it is still too much more
> especially when you arent on the clock but getting paid by the job


Dude, in Chicage the do it all in conduit and homes there don't cost any more than anywhere else comparable. The cost is really borne by the developer, not the customer when buying a house and not the electricial contractor who sure all heck isn't going to "eat it."


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

LGLS said:


> Dude, in Chicage the do it all in conduit and homes there don't cost any more than anywhere else comparable. The cost is really borne by the developer, not the customer when buying a house and not the electricial contractor who sure all heck isn't going to "eat it."


well if all houses in that area are done that way, then there is no question and most of this discussion becomes a moot point

i was under the impression that the post that started the conduit thing was in an area where nobody else does that, therefor it was not necessary or economical

perhaps i was mistaken ?


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

LGLS said:


> Well there's being neat and clean and there's being a pretentious suck up...


Sucking up to who? I’m working for myself on those jobs. If I have a pile of rope scraps on the floor I pick them up.


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## hornetd (Oct 30, 2014)

ohm it hertz said:


> View attachment 161723


OK Can folks please except that I'm not sniping at anyone and I am asking because I want to know? I don't think I ever had an inspector who would have excepted the presence of that shelf. If its some sort support for electrical work then I guess I can see that but it just doesn't look like that to me. I wouldn't want to try and count the number of times I had to convince a homeowner that no kind of built in anything could be in the space above and below a panel if it wasn't electrical work connected to the panel. Yes I had one inspector insist that the feeder to an adjacent panel could not pass over a panel. I kept my cool and just moved it out in front of the panel because I was too irritated to bore the three holes to go above the forbidden zone and come back down into the adjacent panel. 

Luckily nothing had been connected to the cabinets let alone terminated to the panel. When the homeowners saw that nice fat 250 MCM cable on the underside of the joist they offered to pay me to put it in holes through the joists. For them I bored holes all the way back to were the feeders entered the basement from the Meter Mains assembly on the outside of the home. So back to the original question did any of you work with inspectors who would have allowed that shelf, or whatever it is, directly above the panel? 

Second question: How is it OK to run cables of that size under the bottoms of the joists without running boards? Yes I did retire years ago. Have the rules about running NM under floor joists changed or were all those holes I used to drill just a waste of time?

Tom Horne


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## pokeytwo (Dec 6, 2015)

htneighbors said:


> Well, after 38yrs in the trade - residential, commercial, & a whole bunch of industrial - with about 15 of those as an industrial electrical inspector, I've shifted gears a bit. About a year & a half ago, I accepted a 40hr/wk job as an electrician. Working 4/10s, I decided to go back to my own electrical contracting to subsidize my income a little bit. I'd much rather be building control panels in my shop than this...but some friends talked me into wiring their custom home and there are a whole lot more Romex cables than there are the little KOs in the top of the box. Even doubling up cables in the connectors, still not enough. Thinking about a few 2" PVC stubs. I can't be the first one running into this. How are all you guys handling this sort of thing?
> 
> View attachment 161721


I’d go with the pipe stubs into a jb big enough to install all the clamps you need. Above what looks like a closet or in the attic as long as it’s accessible.


htneighbors said:


> Well, after 38yrs in the trade - residential, commercial, & a whole bunch of industrial - with about 15 of those as an industrial electrical inspector, I've shifted gears a bit. About a year & a half ago, I accepted a 40hr/wk job as an electrician. Working 4/10s, I decided to go back to my own electrical contracting to subsidize my income a little bit. I'd much rather be building control panels in my shop than this...but some friends talked me into wiring their custom home and there are a whole lot more Romex cables than there are the little KOs in the top of the box. Even doubling up cables in the connectors, still not enough. Thinking about a few 2" PVC stubs. I can't be the first one running into this. How are all you guys handling this sort of thing?
> 
> View attachment 161721


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Rainwater01 said:


> I’m not sure what you mean. I’m just saying if you open a switch box up and it’s the only place to get power from you’ll feel better seeing #12 rather than #14.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Gonna let you in on a little secret... Been pulling 28 amps through #12/2 NM for an electric WH since I bought the house and the cable, even with the WH running all day non-stop,only gets barely warm. I bet pulling 20a through #14 would never result in any objectionable outcome as long as all the splices are good.


----------



## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

LGLS said:


> Gonna let you in on a little secret... Been pulling 28 amps through #12/2 NM for an electric WH since I bought the house and the cable, even with the WH running all day non-stop,only gets barely warm. I bet pulling 20a through #14 would never result in any objectionable outcome as long as all the splices are good.


----------



## ohm it hertz (Dec 2, 2020)

hornetd said:


> So back to the original question did any of you work with inspectors who would have allowed that shelf, or whatever it is, directly above the panel?


Tom,
That shelf was installed by an alarm company, I think. I do not believe the EC who wired the home put it there. I merely installed the second panel for a finished basement remodel.



hornetd said:


> Second question: How is it OK to run cables of that size under the bottoms of the joists without running boards?


The inspector wasn't a fan, but I explained why I did it. There were many, many, load bearing engineered laminates and sistered floor joists (some 6 or 7 deep!) which the first EC already bored through. Instead of turning those beams into swiss cheese with the holes I needed, I used the product pictured instead. It is UL listed for 16" on center underslung of a floor joist and 30 some odd inches screwed to the face of a joist.

The name escapes me at the moment but here is another photo. This was approximately halfway through the rough, I used almost all of the spaces available in those brackets, 2 cables per opening.











I'm not sure who installed the cables to the right, but I would assume the same alarm company already mentioned.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

ohm it hertz said:


> Tom,
> That shelf was installed by an alarm company, I think. I do not believe the EC who wired the home put it there. I merely installed the second panel for a finished basement remodel.
> 
> 
> ...


Homer helper is one name


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

Majewski said:


> Homer helper is one name


For an orange bucket?


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Almost Retired said:


> well if all houses in that area are done that way, then there is no question and most of this discussion becomes a moot point
> 
> i was under the impression that the post that started the conduit thing was in an area where nobody else does that, therefor it was not necessary or economical
> 
> perhaps i was mistaken ?


Keeping a boatload of cables neat and manageable as well as tidy up a panel area or at least the entry - it has been a long time honored tradition to run a few large conduits to a remote located pullbox or trough, even if right above the panel against the ceiling. A trough or a pull box the same width as the panel but without all the manufactured unusable too-large KO's allows for 2,3,4 rows of 16" wide or say 10 in each row, 20 for 2,rows 30 for 3 and 40 for 4 rows of KOs so that this issue of not having enough KOs for the quantity of cables homerun becomes moot.

Someone suggested this is residential and therefore a more commercial solution, using >gasp< conduit and a metal trough which might require a >gasp< hacksaw, or my suggestion to combine a few of those NM cables and use 1/2" or 3/4 conduit because a couple of those could eliminate 8 of the existing 2-wire homerun cables. is for some reason out of the question.


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## ohm it hertz (Dec 2, 2020)

Majewski said:


> Homer helper is one name


I'm pretty sure the brand was called Cable Chase but I can't find a website for it. Local supplier sold it to me.

Found it.
Rack-A-Tiers Cable Chase


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

ohm it hertz said:


> I'm pretty sure the brand was called Cable Chase but I can't find a website for it. Local supplier sold it to me.


bout 7 bucks each


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

ohm it hertz said:


> I'm pretty sure the brand was called Cable Chase but I can't find a website for it. Local supplier sold it to me.


They look really nice and neat but how do they make it ok to attach cables under the joists like that? Is that the purpose of them or did you find a new way of using them?…They do look better than having everything fanned out and stapled.


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

Majewski said:


> Homer helper is one name


You’re right but it looks like they’re for above the joist, like in an attic.

Rack a tiers Homer Helper


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## ohm it hertz (Dec 2, 2020)

The box had their listed use label on the side, which said something along the lines of 16" on center under joists.


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

ohm it hertz said:


> The box had their listed use label on the side, which said something along the lines of 16" on center under joists.


Under… that’s cool. The pics in the link I posted showed above only.


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## ohm it hertz (Dec 2, 2020)

LGLS said:


> Someone suggested this is residential and therefore a more commercial solution, using >gasp< conduit and a metal trough which might require a >gasp< hacksaw, or my suggestion to combine a few of those NM cables and use 1/2" or 3/4 conduit because a couple of those could eliminate 8 of the existing 2-wire homerun cables. is for some reason out of the question.


Oh, _wah! _I didn't run mwbc because I couldn't find 2 pole arc faults. I'll be sure to wire to a trough and EMT into the panel next time so you can bitch about my crappy offsets or something.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

ohm it hertz said:


> Oh, _wah! _I didn't run mwbc because I couldn't find 2 pole arc faults. I'll be sure to wire to a trough and EMT into the panel next time so you can bitch about my crappy offsets or something.


Still need to keep it protected from damage….


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## ohm it hertz (Dec 2, 2020)

Majewski said:


> bout 7 bucks each


$2/ea iirc. I'm sure the price is jacked now.
Refer to post 113 for the product link.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

ohm it hertz said:


> $2/ea iirc. I'm sure the price is jacked now.
> Refer to post 113 for the product link.


If u can, id love u to send me a cut sheet/price from ur sh


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Majewski said:


> View attachment 162058


----------



## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

LGLS said:


> View attachment 162069


Chyeah dawg


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Majewski said:


> bout 7 bucks each


That's insane! It's mostly holes! You're payimg mostly for nothing!!!


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## ohm it hertz (Dec 2, 2020)

Majewski said:


> If u can, id love u to send me a cut sheet/price from ur sh


$2.475/ea as of October, I'm sure the price is different now.



LGLS said:


> That's insane! It's mostly holes! You're payimg mostly for nothing!!!


Thanks, I'm wearing my drink.  To be fair it saves fighting ten thousand bored holes. The home runs felt like I applied Astroglide.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

LGLS said:


> That's insane! It's mostly holes! You're payimg mostly for nothing!!!


Some men pay dearly for holes


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

ohm it hertz said:


> The box had their listed use label on the side, which said something along the lines of 16" on center under joists.


They require a running board so that nothing can be hung on the cables in between joists. Using those in the manner in which you did is no different that boring holes in the joists w/o a running board.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

ohm it hertz said:


> $2.475/ea as of October, I'm sure the price is different now.


Homer helpers came out at 7 so… thats why i wanna see ur sheet. I want THAT item


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

LGLS said:


> They require a running board so that nothing can be hung on the cables in between joists. Using those in the manner in which you did is no different that boring holes in the joists w/o a running board.


YUP


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## ohm it hertz (Dec 2, 2020)

This photo is straight from the manufacturer...


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

ohm it hertz said:


> Oh, _wah! _I didn't run mwbc because I couldn't find 2 pole arc faults. I'll be sure to wire to a trough and EMT into the panel next time so you can bitch about my crappy offsets or something.


Don't need or want MWBC 2-pole arc faults dawg... you want 12/2/2 or 14/2/2 thats a hot and a noodle for each circuit, and single pole arc-fault breakers or GFCI breakers, no neutral sharing happening unless you want to run 14/3 or 12/3 for 2 circuits that just happen to not require arc-fault... but I gotta wonder why a circuit say on the outside of a house but ran through the crawlspace, up the interior walls, through the attic and down into the garage and then out doesn't need arc-fau;t protection just because the load is entirely outside the premisis, when the danger of an overdriven staple or errant nail still exists for that circuit every bit as much as one in a bedroom or anywhere else inside a house.


----------



## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

LGLS said:


> no different that boring holes in the joists w/o a running board.


which is perfectly code compliant.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

ohm it hertz said:


> This photo is straight from the manufacturer...
> 
> View attachment 162070


So? U think marketing images know all the codes or care?


----------



## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

ohm it hertz said:


> This photo is straight from the manufacturer...
> 
> View attachment 162070


Purdy, especially with the zip ties and all.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Majewski said:


> Some men pay dearly for holes


Hey now you're preaching to the choir!


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## ohm it hertz (Dec 2, 2020)

Majewski said:


> So? U think marketing images know all the codes or care?


Sigh. 

Inspector passed it. You just don't like it because you didn't do it first.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

ohm it hertz said:


> Sigh.
> 
> Inspector passed it. You just don't like it because you didn't do it first.


Whopdi do. So youre both complacent


----------



## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

Majewski said:


> Whopdi do. So youre both complacent


Cat jump back on that phone again and fix it?….thank god.


----------



## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

yankeejoe1141 said:


> Cat jump back on that phone again and fix it?….thank god.


Oh lord no, im on my other phone in this thread


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

Majewski said:


> Oh lord no, im on my other phone in this thread


🤦‍♂️


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

yankeejoe1141 said:


> which is perfectly code compliant.


Not without a running board it isn't. Dude I wired houses YOU GREW UP IN.


----------



## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

LGLS said:


> Not without a running board it isn't. Dude I wired houses YOU GREW UP IN.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Majewski said:


> View attachment 162073





Majewski said:


> View attachment 162073


IKR...


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## ohm it hertz (Dec 2, 2020)

LGLS said:


> Not without a running board it isn't. Dude I wired houses YOU GREW UP IN.


I grew up in a house built in the 60s. No running boards were under wire through bored joists there, or any home I've ever worked in. Am I understanding you correctly? Is this a local NYC code? Or you just trolling the forum?


----------



## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

ohm it hertz said:


> I grew up in a house built in the 60s. No running boards were under wire through bored joists there, or any home I've ever worked in. Am I understanding you correctly? Is this a local NYC code? Or you just trolling the forum?


Educate yourself before throwing shade


----------



## matt1124 (Aug 23, 2011)

I really like those plastic chases. They’d fail them here, it is not a tangled rats nest through misaligned holes butchering up a joist, they won’t know what they’re looking at.


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## ohm it hertz (Dec 2, 2020)

Majewski said:


> Educate yourself before throwing shade


No, I'll throw the shade. I've never seen what he's describing on a job, anywhere.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

ohm it hertz said:


> No, I'll throw the shade. I've never seen what he's describing on a job, anywhere.


I am so offended


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## ohm it hertz (Dec 2, 2020)

Majewski said:


> I am so offended


Your bulk price for those brackets just went up $0.10, pray it doesn't go up any further.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

ohm it hertz said:


> Your bulk price for those brackets just went up $0.10, pray it doesn't go up any further.


DAMN YOU


----------



## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

LGLS said:


> Not without a running board it isn't. Dude I wired houses YOU GREW UP IN.


You’re wrong. 334.15(C) Through bored holes in joists OR on running boards. 

There’s an “OR” in there.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

yankeejoe1141 said:


> You’re wrong. 334.15(C) Through bored holes in joists OR on running boards.
> 
> There’s an “OR” in there.


Let's agree to disagree.


----------



## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

LGLS said:


> Let's agree to disagree.


Agreed


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Majewski said:


> Whopdi do. So youre both complacent


Complicit. They're both complicit.


----------



## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

LGLS said:


> Complicit. They're both complicit.


Look at you!


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

yankeejoe1141 said:


> You’re wrong. 334.15(C) Through bored holes in joists OR on running boards.
> 
> There’s an “OR” in there.



You are correct. You can run the wires thru bored holes or you can be below the joist if on a running board. Now it may be that some areas have amendments to the NEC but that is the rule per NEC

Also let's cut the BS


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

ohm it hertz said:


> I grew up in a house built in the 60s. No running boards were under wire through bored joists there, or any home I've ever worked in. Am I understanding you correctly? Is this a local NYC code? Or you just trolling the forum?


No man... if a person can hang a coat hanger or jump up and hang on the cables stapled in a manner in which the cables would bear the weight, it's a violation. Paralleling a joist is fine, but if the cables traverse the hallows from joist to joist that is one big mutha-forking no-no.


----------



## poncho144 (Apr 7, 2018)

Holy moly....what a frigg'n nightmare....how does one git in these kinda jams.WTF???


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

LGLS said:


> Don't need or want MWBC 2-pole arc faults dawg... you want 12/2/2 or 14/2/2 thats a hot and a noodle for each circuit, and single pole arc-fault breakers or GFCI breakers, no neutral sharing happening unless you want to run 14/3 or 12/3 for 2 circuits that just happen to not require arc-fault... but I gotta wonder why a circuit say on the outside of a house but ran through the crawlspace, up the interior walls, through the attic and down into the garage and then out doesn't need arc-fau;t protection just because the load is entirely outside the premisis, when the danger of an overdriven staple or errant nail still exists for that circuit every bit as much as one in a bedroom or anywhere else inside a house.


What is wrong with double pole arcfault breakers? I use them every chance I can. Less wiring, cheaper home runs, less labor. I wish they would come out with dual function DP breakers.


----------



## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

backstay said:


> What is wrong with double pole arcfault breakers? I use them every chance I can. Less wiring, cheaper home runs, less labor. I wish they would come out with dual function DP breakers.


How would a shared neutral work on a gfci?


----------



## Quickservice (Apr 23, 2020)

Majewski said:


> yeah thats not even compliant...


Yeah.... our inspector would have a melt down.


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## Forge Boyz (Nov 7, 2014)

backstay said:


> What is wrong with double pole arcfault breakers? I use them every chance I can. Less wiring, cheaper home runs, less labor. I wish they would come out with dual function DP breakers.


I almost agree with you. Right up until the time when I have to go track down why the arc fault is tripping. I would rather not have to guess which circuit is tripping off.
ETA I like MWBC's. That part I like about them. I just am leery of adding complexity to a system that can act weird for no reason.
Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Forge Boyz said:


> I almost agree with you. Right up until the time when I have to go track down why the arc fault is tripping. I would rather not have to guess which circuit is tripping off.
> ETA I like MWBC's. That part I like about them. I just am leery of adding complexity to a system that can act weird for no reason.
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


I use mostly Siemens and they have indicators that tell you which circuit is tripping. Plus, you don’t have to concern yourself with neutral sharing. Say you want to feed three bedrooms. If you run lights and receptacles together, that’s three breakers and three home runs. So instead, you run a mwbc to a bedroom, split one hot for the receptacles and one for the lights in all three and the lighting side could still run the hallway and the bathroom lights too. All with one home run.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

backstay said:


> I use mostly Siemens and they have indicators that tell you which circuit is tripping. Plus, you don’t have to concern yourself with neutral sharing. Say you want to feed three bedrooms. If you run lights and receptacles together, that’s three breakers and three home runs. So instead, you run a mwbc to a bedroom, split one hot for the receptacles and one for the lights in all three and the lighting side could still run the hallway and the bathroom lights too. All with one home run.


Siemens afcis are faulty.


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## ohm it hertz (Dec 2, 2020)

I've been installing Siemens arc faults since last year when I switched suppliers. I've had exactly zero callbacks for nuisance trips or other troubleshooting concerning the breakers. I read up on faulty Siemens breakers but those articles are from over ten years ago. Is there a recent recall or something?


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

ohm it hertz said:


> I've been installing Siemens arc faults since last year when I switched suppliers. I've had exactly zero callbacks for nuisance trips or other troubleshooting concerning the breakers. I read up on faulty Siemens breakers but those articles are from over ten years ago. Is there a recent recall or something?


Doesn’t really matter to me. For the last ten years I’ve not only experienced it but my colleagues and had numerous folks at siemens tell me “just buy eaton”


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## ohm it hertz (Dec 2, 2020)

Ironically, Eaton breakers are the only two callbacks I received this year. Those were GFCIs on hot tubs, though, not AFCI.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

ohm it hertz said:


> Ironically, Eaton breakers are the only two callbacks I received this year. Those were GFCIs on hot tubs, though, not AFCI.


The one thing I believe more than siemens afcis are pieces of chit, sometimes it’s just a crapshoot


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Majewski said:


> How would a shared neutral work on a gfci?


Simple, rather than a coil around a single hot and neutral which should remain always unenergized under conditions of a perfectly balanced load... the coil extends around both hots and neutral looking for the same exact thing.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

LGLS said:


> Simple, rather than a coil around a single hot and neutral which should remain always unenergized under conditions of a perfectly balanced load... the coil extends around both hots and neutral looking for the same exact thing.


so why dont these breakers already exist?


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Majewski said:


> so why dont these breakers already exist?


They do. 240v GFCIs breakers ad 240v AFCI/GFCI breakera have existed for a long time, the AFCI avariety meeting with the same issues of success... or lack thereof, as the typical single pole variety. 

I know this and I have never in my life installed an AFCI nor needed to... 

So there's no excuse for you methinks.

I know some panel brands didn't make a 240v shared neuteral AFCI brealer for MWBC at the onset of their introduction but... the 14/2/2/ and 12/2/2 was always another option to prevent the excessive Homeruns into panel issue the OP is now dealing with.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

LGLS said:


> They do. 240v GFCIs breakers ad 240v AFCI/GFCI breakera have existed for a long time, the AFCI avariety meeting with the same issues of success... or lack thereof, as the typical single pole variety.
> 
> I know this and I have never in my life installed an AFCI nor needed to...
> 
> ...


can you show me a dual function two pole breaker?


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

LGLS said:


> No man... if a person can hang a coat hanger or jump up and hang on the cables stapled in a manner in which the cables would bear the weight, it's a violation. Paralleling a joist is fine, but if the cables traverse the hallows from joist to joist that is one big mutha-forking no-no.


This is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. You can hang coat hangers from romex going through bored holes in framing if the ceiling isn't finished, and yet it is done all the time and is completely code compliant.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Going_Commando said:


> This is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. You can hang coat hangers from romex going through bored holes in framing if the ceiling isn't finished, and yet it is done all the time and is completely code compliant.


you can take a chainsaw to electrical closets too...


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Going_Commando said:


> This is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. You can hang coat hangers from romex going through bored holes in framing if the ceiling isn't finished, and yet it is done all the time and is completely code compliant.


You're wrong.


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## Rainwater01 (Oct 6, 2015)

Going_Commando said:


> This is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. You can hang coat hangers from romex going through bored holes in framing if the ceiling isn't finished, and yet it is done all the time and is completely code compliant.


I can only assume the intent was to not have whatever people hang on the cables pulling against the staples and damaging the insulation. There’s probably less stress against a hole bored through wood. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## taglicious (Feb 8, 2020)

htneighbors said:


> Well, after 38yrs in the trade - residential, commercial, & a whole bunch of industrial - with about 15 of those as an industrial electrical inspector, I've shifted gears a bit. About a year & a half ago, I accepted a 40hr/wk job as an electrician. Working 4/10s, I decided to go back to my own electrical contracting to subsidize my income a little bit. I'd much rather be building control panels in my shop than this...but some friends talked me into wiring their custom home and there are a whole lot more Romex cables than there are the little KOs in the top of the box. Even doubling up cables in the connectors, still not enough. Thinking about a few 2" PVC stubs. I can't be the first one running into this. How are all you guys handling this sort of thing?
> 
> View attachment 161721


I think you need a welcome back sir. And holy sh--! Thats a fun way to get back into it lol. I core drill all the time for crawl access. It happens. Dare I say, saw cut for my access as well 😉 some jobs are tougher than others. Thats a doozy.
These are great to use after core drilling




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