# Any Reason Not to Join the Union?



## Frasbee

I've been wondering myself is joining an Union is worth it.

I moved from Philadelphia down to New Orleans, and despite the city atmosphere, I tend to feel the general southern attitude as against the Union. I felt the same sentiment out in Lawton, Oklahoma as well.

So far I've been deterred to joining a Union, but it sounds like whatever the Union has to offer has _got_ to be better than what I have now.

I'm new to the electric field. I took a building maintenance class in Philadelphia which only covered basic circuits and theory. I'm currently working with a non-Union company who's owner _used_ to be Union. As a helper I'm being paid 10.00 an hour. The only benefits are that after 90 days they would pay for half of my *personal* insurance, which I couldn't afford anyway.

I live fairly frugally, I even bought a bicycle to get around locally, and only use my car for long trips and getting to work. I drive an 87 Accord, which as old as it is, is a gas sipper (averaged 31 mpg last time I clocked it).

10 bucks just ain't cutting it. My savings are starting to dwindle.

Not only that, but I don't feel like I'm learning as much as I could be. One of the guys I was helpin' told me he had me doing some of the work incorrectly, but didn't care because he wanted to go home.

I've been told I won't learn as quickly in the Union, but even if I learned slower but got paid more, I'd definitely be able to deal with that.

Really, is there any reason _not_ to join the Union?


----------



## BryanMD

There are three basic reasons to not join the union in a given locale.

1) The merit shop pay and benefits are comparable or better.
2) There isn't any (or much) actual union shop jobs to work on.
3) The union won't let you in.


----------



## randomkiller

BryanMD said:


> There are three basic reasons to not join the union in a given locale.
> 
> 1) The merit shop pay and benefits are comparable or better.
> 2) There isn't any (or much) actual union shop jobs to work on.
> 3) The union won't let you in.


 
Sounds about right.


----------



## Frasbee

I guess I'll just have to contact the local Union and talk to some guys. It's New Orleans, so there's plenty of work. Then again, I've heard talk that things are beginning to slow down in the commercial area...

I've also heard that a person needs to be willing to move around the country for work. Is this true?


----------



## randomkiller

Frasbee said:


> I guess I'll just have to contact the local Union and talk to some guys. It's New Orleans, so there's plenty of work. Then again, I've heard talk that things are beginning to slow down in the commercial area...
> 
> I've also heard that a person needs to be willing to move around the country for work. Is this true?


 
No, it isn't. There should be years of work right there.


----------



## oldman

http://www.ibewlu130.com/cstmpg.asp?id=34

looks like your immediate situation won't change, but going forward it may...


----------



## nolabama

*shop yourself around*

hey man this is new orleans and we still have a shortage of labor , if you are a good employee and you come to work everyday their is plenty of open shops that will hire you for a couple bucks more an hour, but the hall is good here and imo if you are a young person ie 19-25 you will do better in the hall -good luck and riding a bicycle is good for the environment - i ride everyday


----------



## Frasbee

nolabama said:


> hey man this is new orleans and we still have a shortage of labor , if you are a good employee and you come to work everyday their is plenty of open shops that will hire you for a couple bucks more an hour, but the hall is good here and imo if you are a young person ie 19-25 you will do better in the hall -good luck and riding a bicycle is good for the environment - i ride everyday


Thanks for the input.

I've not missed a day in the 2 months I've been working so far, nor do I intend to in the future. I've gotten to work everyday on time, and if I even _think_ I might be running a little late, I call the foreman and let him know.

I was thinking that relative to my age, a Union may be better. Just seems like all the old heads I talk to got tired of the Union and that's why they've moved on.


----------



## BryanMD

Frasbee said:


> I was thinking that relative to my age, a Union may be better. Just seems like all the old heads I talk to got tired of the Union and that's why they've moved on.


Once you have your hours in and whatever apprentice schooling you can get SOMEONE ELSE to pay for then you can move on too. But when you move on do it from a position of power by having that experience and knowledge.


----------



## Thomp

Frasbee the reason you need to be in a Union and stay is because when you are 50 something almost 60 something you will need a retirement. You don't think about that now, but some day you will. It will be important to you then. The health benefits alone are worth staying for. Good luck Thomp


----------



## miller_elex

Thomp, you should stay non-union and rope out a few sub-divisions.

Then when you go union you will know what to be grateful for.


----------



## Speedy Petey

Miller, did you even read what Thomp wrote???





miller_elex said:


> Thomp, you should stay non-union and rope out a few sub-divisions.


Nice stereotype.


----------



## miller_elex

The stereotype fits, because it is true.

If all you do is throw out a couple hundred miles of romex for the year,
you're probably a non-union electrician.

After 6 months of roughing in homes and apartments, about any Joe Sparky is ready to go into business for himself.

What I'm really trying to say is: we do alot of Type I construction and you do alot of Type V construction. Apples to oranges.


----------



## Speedy Petey

miller_elex said:


> The stereotype fits, because it is true.
> 
> If all you do is throw out a couple hundred miles of romex for the year,
> you're probably a non-union electrician.


Yes, this stereotype is true. Most union guys do not do much residential. 






miller_elex said:


> After 6 months of roughing in homes and apartments, about any Joe Sparky is ready to go into business for himself.


This stereotype is a joke and is pretty arrogant.


----------



## amptech

So where does that put the MC cable guys doing the stores in the strip malls? Isn't MC just shiny "rope"? I partially disagree with Petey. That's not so much arrogant as it is ignorant.


----------



## amptech

I've got some buddies out of the Muncie, IN local who are currently "roping" a Motel 6 and a Holiday Inn Express. I'll have to ask them if they can feel themselves getting stupider as they run NM.


----------



## Speedy Petey

You may have me there Amp.


----------



## miller_elex

You guys can laugh it up all you want. 

We'll see whose laughing when its time to retire.

God forbid we see whose laughing when a really serious health issue comes along and I've got the superior benefits. And Yes, I work throughout the year.
I've seen guys work through chemotherapy. Does HealthNet cover that?? 
What does that $110 bucks a week that comes out of your check for health benefits really get for you when you need it?


----------



## Kletis

I am non-union. When I was a first and second year apprentice I worked for a union shop and did very light commercial jobs and a little residential. Now I work for a non union shop and do nothing but very large industrial work. Last year over 1/3 of our work was for a few different Weyerhauser plants. They pay 100% of my medical premiums and I pay a very small co-pay. I get profit sharing, a vehicle which I am allowed to use for all of my around town personal driving, and a 401k. I think I am treated very well.

I am not saying anything bad about unions. My father is a union lineman and very happy. I am just merely pointing out that non union shops don't always wire houses and strip malls. Union is a very good way to go...but it is definitely not the only way.

Frasbee- Union would be a very good choice for you. You will get good benefits and better pay, but don't think that all non union shops pay next to nothing and do poor work just so they can go home sooner. This is most definitely not the case.....


----------



## Speedy Petey

miller_elex said:


> You guys can laugh it up all you want.


Miller, don't turn this into a yet another pro/anti discussion. That's not the point.

We are not laughing at the union. We are laughing at you.


----------



## Frasbee

I've been told the company I work for isn't the best.

There's no paid vacations, or benefits, although they do offer to pay 50% of your personal insurance (if you have it) after the first 90 days of your employment.

Fortunately they also offer over-time on occasion, a godsend to me because before this I was working on a concrete crew installing swimming pools working at least 50 hours a week with no over-time or benefits.


----------



## oldman

Speedy Petey said:


> Miller, don't turn this into a yet another pro/anti discussion. That's not the point.
> 
> We are not laughing at the union. We are laughing at you.


:laughing:


----------



## Frasbee

So I checked out the local Union here in New Orleans.

If I had no experience and were to start at the very bottom, I'd be startin' at 10.55 per hour.

I'm already makin' 12, and am due to make 14 by the end of next month for 6 months of work.

I'm a bit torn, because while I was told my time and pay with this non-Union shop can count as credit for me, the idea of having to wait a year for a pay increase discourages me. They did say that they negotiate something with me if it's a drastic pay deduction. I don't like the idea of being held back in terms of pay, or in terms of what they will or won't let me do on the job site. I also don't like the idea of being hazed or treated like some bitch just because.

On the flip side, I'd like to learn more about the theory side of electrical work, so the classes would be great, and I'm feeling like benefits would outweigh the pay deduction. After all, breakin' an ankle after fallin' off a ladder would easily clean out at least 1/3 of my savings. Maybe half... Not only that, but when I move to a different city, I should be able to get in with their locals. Right?

I'm torn. But in the mean time, I'm waiting for my transcripts to come through, so I have some time to think.


----------



## surfbh

If you want to have a better right now, stay non-union. If you want to have a better future, go union!


----------



## randomkiller

surfbh said:


> If you want to have a better right now, stay non-union. If you want to have a better future, go union!


 
Well stated.


----------



## LGLS

Frasbee said:


> So I checked out the local Union here in New Orleans.
> 
> If I had no experience and were to start at the very bottom, I'd be startin' at 10.55 per hour.
> 
> I'm already makin' 12, and am due to make 14 by the end of next month for 6 months of work.
> 
> I'm a bit torn, because while I was told my time and pay with this non-Union shop can count as credit for me, the idea of having to wait a year for a pay increase discourages me. They did say that they negotiate something with me if it's a drastic pay deduction. I don't like the idea of being held back in terms of pay,


You're not looking at the big picture. If you continue along your current course, what will (and read *will, as in guaranteed, as in there is no question) *you be earning per hour after 3, 4, or 5 years?

As for now... if the union provides that the contractor will pay your ENTIRE medical insurance, plus whatever other benefits offered, what will that SAVE YOU on a weekly paycheck by not having 1/2 of your health coverage costs deducted from your nonunion wages?

Further, while you're earning a buck or 2 per hour working nonunion now, how much of a retirement fund (pension, annuity, 401k, etc) are you building up?



> or in terms of what they will or won't let me do on the job site. I also don't like the idea of being hazed or treated like some bitch just because.


There are many things "they" won't let you do on a jobsite. Some work just isn't apprentice's work, it's journeyman's work. The reason for this is quite simple, and again, you need to view the big picture. Apprentices aren't electricians (yet) and if apprentices were permitted to do anything, then the contractors would see no need for full paid journeymen, and when you finally turn out you wouldn't have a job, because all the newer apprentices are performing it. 

As for the hazing, it's all good fun. Like the saying goes, you're not here for a long time, you're here for a good time!



> On the flip side, I'd like to learn more about the theory side of electrical work, so the classes would be great, and I'm feeling like benefits would outweigh the pay deduction. After all, breakin' an ankle after fallin' off a ladder would easily clean out at least 1/3 of my savings. Maybe half... Not only that, but when I move to a different city, I should be able to get in with their locals. Right?
> 
> I'm torn. But in the mean time, I'm waiting for my transcripts to come through, so I have some time to think.


Now you're thinking with your brain instead of a different appendage. Try not to let your machismo get in the way of intelligent decision making process.


----------



## Rong

surfbh said:


> If you want to have a better right now, stay non-union. If you want to have a better future, go union!


 I also agree with this. It is a hard choice starting out but for me it was the best choice.


----------



## surfbh

Lots of non-union guys on here talk about how much more they make than union and maybe some do, but I guarantee that the average total package of a union worker in the U.S. is considerably higher than a non-union worker. And good luck getting the training to fullfill your potential non-union. *Nobody plans to fail but many fail to plan.* Words to live by!


----------



## brian john

This is a blanket statement and does not necessarily hold true. Making a blanket statement holds you open to only having to be wrong once to be WRONG.

Generalized I agree but there are exceptions to everything. Try to keep your mind open, there are options.


----------



## surfbh

Blanket statement? There are figures that show the difference in pay, union vs. non for every state, seen them at school. As for finding training non-union, i'm sure you can. Will it on average be as good as union? I doubt it. I'm working on a job with about 10 others doing controls, while the main EC (non-union) has well over 100 guys. I've worked around many and they definitely have not gotten the training I have so far or they are not utilizing it anyways.


----------



## brian john

> And good luck getting the training to fullfill your potential non-union


Look I am not trying argue with you. This is the statement I am discussing. What you are saying is a local problem. In this area the open shop schools are excellent. Additionally the majority, LIKE ALL I have learned all came from NON UNION schools.

You are an apprentice (there is nothing wrong with that) and there is mostly likely a lot you may not know about training around the country.


----------



## Frasbee

I keep hearing conflicting views, but I think, down here in New Orleans, it may be better to go Union, especially considering I'm young and inexperienced. I can't commit myself to any one company because I intend on moving around, so even if I find a good non-union here and New Orleans, I'm in no way going to commit my time to them so they can train me in the long run.

One of the biggest companies "All-Star Electric", an electrician I'm working with now, said he applied to them and they told him they'd hire him at 17 bucks.

He's a licensed electrician.

Yikes.


----------



## daddymack

You started this thread in may making ten bucks. 2 months later you are at 12 and say you have a two dollar bump coming next month. They must like you or really need you. 

You may want to find out where the top of their scale is and how far can you climb with them. A company truck would help with gas. If they like you and you like them job satisfaction may trump money. From what I have heard, some non unions pay more then union down there.

But let me warn you, if you are talking union at work it may bite you in the behind. So I would document who you talk to about it and when. Just in case they decide they need to cut back on one helper. Then take your notes to the union hall.

Philly to New Orleans? Must be a culture shock.


----------



## Frasbee

I don't discuss anything at work about other job prospects. Doesn't make for good work ethic.

These guys ARE desperate. Just the fact that I've shown up every day alone would've been enough for them to keep me. Because of my work ethic, they've moved me around to several places, and I've gotten my hand in residential and commercial work. While a lot of the other helpers get stuck in one place and show up to a new site, lost when someone asks them to bend a 90 in 3/4.

I've _heard_ that 16 is the max for their helpers.

After that, I'd have to get licensed and go from there.

Now, I'm hearing conflicting things about the union. My roommate talked to a buddy of his, who's in the plumber's union, and he said that at least for the plumbers, they have to commit themselves to that local during their apprenticeship because of all the free schooling. I talked to a woman at the electric union office, they said that the apprenticeship is transferable, depending upon the local I'd be transferring to.

I don't want a year or 2 of an apprenticeship down the drain because another local for whatever bizarre reason would refuse to recognize my training in a different city.

Can somebody clear this up for me?


----------



## daddymack

Frasbee said:


> Now, I'm hearing conflicting things about the union. My roommate talked to a buddy of his, who's in the plumber's union, and he said that at least for the plumbers, they have to commit themselves to that local during their apprenticeship because of all the free schooling. I talked to a woman at the electric union office, they said that the apprenticeship is transferable, depending upon the local I'd be transferring to.
> 
> I don't want a year or 2 of an apprenticeship down the drain because another local for whatever bizarre reason would refuse to recognize my training in a different city.
> 
> Can somebody clear this up for me?


 

What they mean by commit is after you complete your apprenticeship say the IBEW, you work for IBEW contractors for 4 years. They don't want to train people then they go non union.

You can transfer but sometimes you have to jump through some hoops. They make it more difficult then it should, but you can.


----------



## Frasbee

I don't have a problem staying with the union once I start.

But I _would_ have a problem with staying with the local I'd start at.

I'm just not the kind of person to get tied down to any one place. Had I done this 4 years ago, when I was 18? Hell, I'd probably still be in Philly, right now. But my life choices helped open my eyes to a world outside of SE Pennsylvania.

If the union can't work with me, then I can't work with the union.

I really hope that won't be the case.


----------



## randomkiller

Frasbee said:


> I don't have a problem staying with the union once I start.
> 
> But I _would_ have a problem with staying with the local I'd start at.
> 
> I'm just not the kind of person to get tied down to any one place. Had I done this 4 years ago, when I was 18? Hell, I'd probably still be in Philly, right now. But my life choices helped open my eyes to a world outside of SE Pennsylvania.
> 
> If the union can't work with me, then I can't work with the union.
> 
> I really hope that won't be the case.


 
Plenty of guys go on the road and follow the work. It's a way of life of it's own.


----------



## surfbh

Transferring as an apprentice can be easy or impossible depending on where you are transferring to or from. The better the local, the better the pay, the more people they have applying for apprenticeship, the harder it is to transfer into. I know, I am trying to transfer into a different local right now. They don't take regular transfers, you have to apply and interview and then they will put you in your year of school and give you your hours IF they take you. Now the difference between where I am in FL and there is that almost all the apprentices were accepted who interviewed with me. There, they have 100+ applicants a week and take 100-120 new apprentices a year, much more difficult to get into for sure! Also the committee has to allow you to transfer from your local. Now after you top out you can travel anywhere and work anywhere in the country, you can try to transfer your ticket as a journeyman etc. But really, the best thing is you could top out of New Orleans making say $25 hr. in 5 years and travel to Vegas or Illinois or Ca and make somewhere near $50-60 Hr+ incredible benefits (which I'm sure it will be 5 years from now in many of their locals.) And all you have to do is go to to the local with excess work and sign book 2 and you'll have a job when your number comes up. Do you think it is feasibly possible for you to make $50-$60 hr. + benefits 5 years from now without having to apply for a job? 

Brian John 

I have met some very intelligent non-union guys and you definitely have the intelligence so no disrespect. But for someone starting out who needs direction, I think that Union is the way to go for most. Now maybe if the guy was a very hard worker and very smart, non-union could offer him more potentially. But generally speaking I think that the avg. man has a shot at better pay and benefits going union.


----------



## daddymack

Frasbee said:


> I don't have a problem staying with the union once I start.
> 
> But I _would_ have a problem with staying with the local I'd start at.
> 
> I'm just not the kind of person to get tied down to any one place. Had I done this 4 years ago, when I was 18? Hell, I'd probably still be in Philly, right now. But my life choices helped open my eyes to a world outside of SE Pennsylvania.
> 
> If the union can't work with me, then I can't work with the union.
> 
> I really hope that won't be the case.


If you like to travel then you can make a ton of money going union. you can 70k working 6 months a year. Say you top out in NO, you can move anywhere and stay in the New Orleans local. No need to transfer. Many people do it.

But if you are a little gunshy about commitment. Do what your heart tells you.


----------



## MechanicalDVR

daddymack said:


> If you like to travel then you can make a ton of money going union. you can 70k working 6 months a year. Say you top out in NO, you can move anywhere and stay in the New Orleans local. No need to transfer. Many people do it.
> 
> But if you are a little gunshy about commitment. Do what your heart tells you.


 
I have taken the show on the road several times and always enjoyed the change of scenery.


----------



## brian john

MechanicalDVR said:


> I have taken the show on the road several times and always enjoyed the change of scenery.


 
When I take my "SHOW" on the road I have had to hire two men from the local to sit and watch me work. One time I had to hire two men from the local to watch me.

I always try to explain to the people I work with what I am doing and why things are the way they are. I figure if they learn something maybe I can stay home next time. About 3 hours into the job I was maybe 1 hour into the work as the mechanic and the apprentice were sitting down, taking breaks, disappearing and basically a PIA to me. The mechanic being very insightful and KNOWING he was a PIA (ON PURPOSE) said. " Look I really do not give a FU*K about what you are doing, why don't you sign my ticket for 8 hours and we will leave you alone." I had a pen and had no problem dumping this anchor. I assumed the union would be OK with this also, as they got their men covered.

I have also worked with many fine men and a few times done the in and out and none the wiser. SHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!


----------



## liverstos

Frasbee said:


> I don't discuss anything at work about other job prospects. Doesn't make for good work ethic.
> 
> These guys ARE desperate. Just the fact that I've shown up every day alone would've been enough for them to keep me. Because of my work ethic, they've moved me around to several places, and I've gotten my hand in residential and commercial work. While a lot of the other helpers get stuck in one place and show up to a new site, lost when someone asks them to bend a 90 in 3/4.
> 
> I've _heard_ that 16 is the max for their helpers.
> 
> After that, I'd have to get licensed and go from there.
> 
> Now, I'm hearing conflicting things about the union. My roommate talked to a buddy of his, who's in the plumber's union, and he said that at least for the plumbers, they have to commit themselves to that local during their apprenticeship because of all the free schooling. I talked to a woman at the electric union office, they said that the apprenticeship is transferable, depending upon the local I'd be transferring to.
> 
> I don't want a year or 2 of an apprenticeship down the drain because another local for whatever bizarre reason would refuse to recognize my training in a different city.
> 
> Can somebody clear this up for me?


Frasbee,
When I was going through my Union apprenticeship, three guys from my starting class were able to transfer to other locals and complete their apprenticeships. I talked with two of them, and both said that it took some work on their part such as finding openings in the local they transfered to. So, it can be done if you have a burning desire to transfer to another local during your apprenticeship.


----------



## brian john

And the local has a need and/or openings.


----------



## ohmontherange

Most people in my part of the country are non union. I've been in the workplace since 1985 and have never been in a union. Don't get me wrong - I'm not anti-union. I have a sub working for me now on a job which is a union shop ( costs me a little more but their work is impeccible ) and I have no problem paying for the quality work they do.

Doesn't really matter to me personally now cause I'm on salary and make the same regardless but I do remember working my arse off years ago for what seemed like a pentance.


----------



## the_full_monty

BryanMD said:


> There are three basic reasons to not join the union in a given locale.
> 
> 1) The merit shop pay and benefits are comparable or better.
> 2) There isn't any (or much) actual union shop jobs to work on.
> 3) The union won't let you in.


 
1) i've worked non union the pay sucked and there was no pension or 401K in the IBEW i have up to 4 pension to draw on and also in regards to pay i make more in 6 months of working then i did in 12 months of working non union

2) comercial companies are waking up to the fact that they may be able to get non union workers at a cheaper rate. but they have to call these guys back 2 or 3 times befor the job is done correctly. true you may pay more for a union worker but it usally done right the 1st time due to the fine education th NJATC gives us. (not to say there aren't any space cadets in the union lets face they are). the cost effectiveness of getting a job done correctly the 1st is swiftly swinging the market back to the unions

3) get real if you have a good head on your shoulders then the union will take you in. i had no problem becoming a member of my local


----------



## blackhat 321

*A word about lay offs*

Just thought someone should tell him that here in Local 11 you can be "LAID OFF" for absolutely the stupidest or no reason at all I'm sure contractors eleswhere have it similiar. We always have 300 people on book 1 and Contractors know it. They smoked a guy last week for asking for water and another got smoked for refusing to go into a 4160 volt vault.

Lay offs are for real ,don't do it right ,do what your forman says!

Union has the wages and the benes though, so far I've been lucky.


----------



## brian john

> get real if you have a good head on your shoulders then the union will take you in. i had no problem becoming a member of my local


Once again a local statement because this holds true in you local this is not necessarily true nationwide.

At one point getting in the local here took FAMILY or a FAMILY member NO MATTER HOW GOOD YOU WERE. Thankfully that has changed.


----------



## slickvic277

move back to philly this is union town usa.Journeyman rate is $45.62 per hour.And our local is strong.We have all the work in our juristiction.


----------



## paul d.

i been to philly. you can have it.


----------



## slickvic277

Dont remeber asking you if you wanted it.But thats alright I pretty much feel the same way about the entire south.


----------



## paul d.

me too. but i guess we all gotta make a living.


----------



## slickvic277

:laughing:


----------



## Frasbee

slickvic277 said:


> Dont remeber asking you if you wanted it.But thats alright I pretty much feel the same way about the entire south.


I used to feel the same way before I traveled throughout it.

Many of my misconceptions of the south were debunked in my travels, while others held true.

You'll find more ******** in middle PA than you would in any major city down here.


----------



## brian john

Pretty much every state has rural areas and these will foster some that have a *******. But some of the country folks will work their asses off and are generally good people.


----------



## seo

I've seen outstanding electricians that were both union and merit. I've also seen it the other way around as well. When a person feels that they are owed a living it's time to send them on their way.


----------



## user4818

Frasbee said:


> Many of my misconceptions of the south were debunked in my travels, while others held true.
> 
> You'll find more ******** in middle PA than you would in any major city down here.


I saw just as many trailers in California as I've ever seen in the southern states.


----------



## Thomp

Well guys at the next IBEW picnic I get my 20 year pin. It been an amazing ride. Wouldn't have traded it for anything.


----------



## brian john

Peter D said:


> I saw just as many trailers in California as I've ever seen in the southern states.


Stockton CA listed one of the most miserable cities in America by Forbes magazine one of the items relagating Stockto to this position only 15% of the population have a college education. 

Are you dragging your city down?

http://www.mercedsunstar.com/268/story/131206.html


----------

