# Disconnect for Hot Tubs



## Victory Pete (Jun 29, 2012)

I have been installing disconnects for hot tubs for over 10 years. I forgot what inspector made me do it back then but I have been putting them in ever since. Now a customer pointed out the exemption in 680.41 for single family dwellings. I get so confused living in a small state with so many different inspectors.

VP


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Victory Pete said:


> I have been installing disconnects for hot tubs for over 10 years. I forgot what inspector made me do it back then but I have been putting them in ever since. Now a customer pointed out the exemption in 680.41 for single family dwellings. I get so confused living in a small state with so many different inspectors.
> 
> VP


Stop listening to customers for code advice.

680.41 is about an *emergency* shutdown control that is required at non-dwelling unit hot tubs because of some drownings in hot tubs due to pump suction. 

You are still required to install a disconnect switch for servicing by 680.12


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

well, your customers right, but there's no violation in installing over code

also, you might investigate wheather a potential rental situation negates the _'single family home'_ aspect in your state

~CS~


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

BBQ said:


> You are still required to install a disconnect switch for servicing by 680.12


many are integral inside the unit....~CS~


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

chicken steve said:


> well, your customers right,


Not if the customer is speaking of the required maintenance disconnect which I am willing to bet they are,


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

chicken steve said:


> many are integral inside the unit....~CS~


Yes, and some of those integral disconnects actually comply with 680.12



> 680.12 Maintenance Disconnecting Means. One or more
> means to simultaneously disconnect all ungrounded conductors
> shall be provided for all utilization equipment other
> than lighting. Each means shall be readily accessible and
> ...


But again, the OP specified 680.41 which is an entirely separate issue.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

i'm on the fence here...

aren't they related articles , at least in the sense that section 4 (hot tubs) amends section 1's provisions BBQ?

~CS~


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## Victory Pete (Jun 29, 2012)

Thanks for the replies. Once again I find myself as the "Middle Man" in my own Electrical Business. The Home Owner even wants to "Help" with the installation. The LAHJ is vague in answering my questions, he just spouts off "680.41 and 680.12" with no common sense explanations, just "Jargon". Every job and situation is uniquely different.

VP


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

chicken steve said:


> i'm on the fence here...


Sounds kinda painful ...





> aren't they related articles , at least in the sense that section 4 (hot tubs) amends section 1's provisions BBQ?




No not the same.

680.12 is requiring a disconnecting means for service needs, just like any motor load must have.

680.41 requires a Emergency switch 



> *680.41 Emergency Switch for Spas and Hot Tubs.* A
> clearly labeled emergency shutoff or control switch for the
> purpose of stopping the motor(s) that provide power to the
> recirculation system and jet system shall be installed at a point
> ...


Now there might be times where an electrician could cover both sections with one switch but that would be odd in non-dwelling units.

A typical non-dwelling unit hot tub, like you would find by the pool at a hotel will not be self contained, the pumps and such are installed remotely. In that case the disconnect for 680.12 has to be at the pumps but the emergency switch for 680.41 would be at the hot tub and is typically a red mushroom button that either shuts down the motor starters or shunt trips the breakers feeding the pumps.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Example


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## Victory Pete (Jun 29, 2012)

The homeowner wants the supplied breaker box mounted in a utility closet at the end of the deck, it is 35 ft away and there is a window which would make the disconnect "In Sight".

VP


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

As long as it is 5' and not more than 50' and within site then it is compliant.

BTW- I agree with BBQ- the emergency switch is not the same as the disconnect. Emergency off switch is not required for a single family residence but the disco is.


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*?*

Well, whatever you do, don't run deadly exposed SER to the disconnect. That's all i"m sayin:whistling2:


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JFEj_vYHw8


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

RGH said:


> v=1JFEj_vYHw8


Well of course, but only on Tuesdays.


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## Victory Pete (Jun 29, 2012)

*Nec 680.25*

The LAHJ has "Warned" me about NEC 680.25. My understanding is the equipment grounding conductor inside the single family dwelling does not need to be insulated, only covered such as the ground in 6-3 Romex as explained in 680.6. Of couse outside in the SealTight it will be insulated.

VP


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## Sparky J (May 17, 2011)

Here for a completely legal install (comm. or Resi.) we have to install an insulated ground. The preferred choice is PVC and wire. But some low ballers will run romex to a disconnect and have it inspected then later set and wire the tub. A lot of track home builders do it on the cheap this way semi under the radar.


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## Victory Pete (Jun 29, 2012)

Sparky J said:


> Here for a completely legal install (comm. or Resi.) we have to install an insulated ground. The preferred choice is PVC and wire. But some low ballers will run romex to a disconnect and have it inspected then later set and wire the tub. A lot of track home builders do it on the cheap this way semi under the radar.


How do you interpret 680.6? It says in a single family dwelling you dont need raceway if the #12 ground is covered in the jacket.

VP


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## Sparky J (May 17, 2011)

Here pretty much all localities treat it like wiring a pool (insulated ground and conduit). The only way to not do it is to "fudge" the inspection like some do. They want the ground insulated unto itself (if that make sense) I could not run bare ground in my conduit here it's a no no.
It all depends on location and AHJ, though I wish I could run romex in this situiation life would be sweet.
Not that this is a spa example but it's like with ground rods mostly here just drive (2) not (1) and check resistance, just (2) and done.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Sparky J said:


> Here pretty much all localities treat it like wiring a pool


As they should



> *IV. Spas and Hot Tubs
> 680.40 General.* Electrical installations at spas and hot tubs
> shall comply with the provisions of Part I and Part IV of this
> article.





> *680.42 Outdoor Installations.* A spa or hot tub installed outdoors
> shall comply with the provisions of Parts I and II of this
> article, except as permitted in 680.42(A) and (B), that would
> otherwise apply to pools installed outdoors.





> *680.43 Indoor Installations.* A spa or hot tub installed indoors
> shall comply with the provisions of Parts I and II of this
> article except as modified by this section and shall be connected
> by the wiring methods of Chapter 3.


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## Victory Pete (Jun 29, 2012)

Sparky J said:


> Here pretty much all localities treat it like wiring a pool (insulated ground and conduit). The only way to not do it is to "fudge" the inspection like some do. They want the ground insulated unto itself (if that make sense) I could not run bare ground in my conduit here it's a no no.
> It all depends on location and AHJ, though I wish I could run romex in this situiation life would be sweet.
> Not that this is a spa example but it's like with ground rods mostly here just drive (2) not (1) and check resistance, just (2) and done.


 
In the NEC pools and hot tubs are governed by section 680. 680.6 applies to both.

VP


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## Sparky J (May 17, 2011)

Victory Pete said:


> In the NEC pools and hot tubs are governed by section 680. 680.6 applies to both.
> 
> VP


Yes but at the end of the day the AHJs make the rules. Some interperet differently than others and vise versa. Look at my area vs. areas that allow romex or uf.
Just saying


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## Victory Pete (Jun 29, 2012)

Sparky J said:


> Yes but at the end of the day the AHJs make the rules. Some interperet differently than others and vise versa. Look at my area vs. areas that allow romex or uf.
> Just saying


 
That is the problem, the lisence in my wallet was issued to me based on my understanding of the NEC, every 3 years I am required to go to NEC update classes. You get some LAHJs who think they are God's answer to everything electrical. It really makes trying to run a business a PITA.

VP


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## Sparky J (May 17, 2011)

I have a question how do you guys interpret the disconnect rule, I mean as far as line of sight. From the disconnect looking at the equipment or from the equipment looking at the disconnect?
No I'm not being an ass I had a funky one years ago that I had to walk on because the inspector saw it one way me the other.


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## Sparky J (May 17, 2011)

I hear you I wish they'd be consistent, is it really that hard?


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## Victory Pete (Jun 29, 2012)

Look at figure 11.35. It shows NM inside the dwelling and raceway outside. I have been doing it this way for 20 years.

http://books.google.com/books?id=aZ...tI9Ih-GDk&hl=en#v=onepage&q=nec 680.6&f=false


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## Victory Pete (Jun 29, 2012)

Sparky J said:


> I have a question how do you guys interpret the disconnect rule, I mean as far as line of sight. From the disconnect looking at the equipment or from the equipment looking at the disconnect?
> No I'm not being an ass I had a funky one years ago that I had to walk on because the inspector saw it one way me the other.


 
This is just common sense, you need to be able to see the disconnect from the hot tub control panel. But I know how these inspectors can be, it is really tiresome.

VP


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

In my opinion you need to see the disconnect when you are working on the unit. Now I have had an inspector say when my head was inside the tub area then I couldn't see the disconnect. I had to install one under the shroud.


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