# AL/CU lugs..



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Not that I can see the lugs you are asking about but most AL lugs are tin plated.


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

the al/cu marking means they take aluminum and copper: UL listed and approved, as everyone points out so why worry?


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

I never use anti-oxidant paste for copper anyway


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

BuzzKill said:


> the al/cu marking means they take aluminum and copper: UL listed and approved, as everyone points out so why worry?


and NOLOX is not mandatory!

~Matt


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

HARRY304E said:


> I never use anti-oxidant paste for copper anyway


You are too far gone to worry about. :laughing:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Not that I can see the lugs you are asking about but most AL lugs are tin plated.


How do you tell if they are tin plated??

Another thing I am curious about is the "knuckle" that joins the meter stacks together..

That just seems like a really cheap way of making connections between meter stacks and it is wide open for water infiltration from blowing wind during a heavy rain


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

B4T said:


> ............I understand the new AL conductor material is "better".. ...........


You're thinking of Aluminum along the lines of Stabiloy.

STABILOY is a new generation aluminum alloy, recognized by the 1993 National Electrical Code (NEC), Underwriters Laboratories, Inc., and ASTM. Because of its enhanced physical properties, this alloy offers improved creep resistance and reduced cold flow.

STABILOY has superior flexibility, strength retention and thermal stability. STABILOY shows no significant loss in yield or tensile strength even after being exposed to temperatures in excess of 400 F for more than four hours.

STABILOY is so stable that when properly installed, you no longer need to periodically retighten connections. Torque retention is actually equal to that of copper.

STABILOY building wires are fully compact stranded a configuration that allows a reduction in conductor diameter with no ampacity loss. In many cases, STABILOY XHHW-2 can equal the current carrying capacity of copper wire installed in the same size conduit.

The real "bottom line" to all these advantages is that STABILOY XHHW-2 and MC Cable provide a total system for the conductor, designer, and owner. That's why the future belongs to STABILOY and the future is now!

Compared to copper, STABILOY is:

Lighter in weight 
Much lower in cost 
Offers equivalent torque retention 
Greater flexibility 
Reduced springback 

​


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BuzzKill said:


> the al/cu marking means they take aluminum and copper: UL listed and approved, as everyone points out so why worry?


Because I don't like having equipment failure with my jobs as time goes by..

I am asking questions to keep it from happening in the first place..


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> How do you tell if they are tin plated??


Because if they were just solid AL connecting copper to them would be a problem.


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

BBQ said:


> Because if they were just solid AL connecting copper to them would be a problem.


hence AL/CU rated...


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

For 30+ years I/we have been involved in infrared and the percentage of AL lugs we find damaged from heat is minimal and while not a scientific study I would say proportionally close to the number of copper issues.

Most problems we find can be isolated down to installation errors, loose connections, not properly seated, over tightened (Allen set drove through the strands), other issues are factory issues such as loose conductor termination connectors. 

But as I have noted before someone sees a burnt AL conductor and automatically blames the AL, with no insight into the actual issue.


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## kwired (Dec 20, 2009)

brian john said:


> ...
> But as I have noted before someone sees a burnt AL conductor and automatically blames the AL, with no insight into the actual issue.


And I think that is because you can make mistakes with copper that you can't with aluminum and get away with it easier.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

kwired said:


> And I think that is because you can make mistakes with copper that you can't with aluminum and get away with it easier.


Then you misread my post, my point is when professionals install AL there is no issue, but should there be an issue where a meteorite hits the building AL will be blamed.

As for meter stacks what JUNK, better than 1/2 the issues we see are factory connections under the meter with the "pop rivets" or "tapit" (type) hardware they utilize in assembly.


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

brian john said:


> Then you misread my post, my point is when professionals install AL there is no issue, but should there be an issue where a meteorite hits the building AL will be blamed.
> 
> As for meter stacks what JUNK, better than 1/2 the issues we see are factory connections under the meter with the "pop rivets" or "tapit" (type) hardware they utilize in assembly.


I've never had a problem with aluminum...My supply house only stocks 1/0 and 4/0 thwn in aluminum, so I use it for 125's and 200 amp services...


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## kwired (Dec 20, 2009)

brian john said:


> Then you misread my post, my point is when professionals install AL there is no issue, but should there be an issue where a meteorite hits the building AL will be blamed.
> 
> As for meter stacks what JUNK, better than 1/2 the issues we see are factory connections under the meter with the "pop rivets" or "tapit" (type) hardware they utilize in assembly.


No misread just adding a little more to it. 

When aluminum fails it really looks like hell, so people tend to associate that to mean that it is a poor product to use. When copper fails it does not always look as bad as aluminum will but it is still failed and needs replaced.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Copper or AL ..... failures are messy.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Allen sets all seem to be tightened based on visual depth of sets. Was this a bus to termination connector issue?


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

brian john said:


> Allen sets all seem to be tightened based on visual depth of sets. Was this a bus to termination connector issue?


I don't know, I found the issue and sent people to replace the entire interior.


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

brian john said:


> Allen sets all seem to be tightened based on visual depth of sets. Was this a bus to termination connector issue?


I'd vote that, all
else looks normal but who knows?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

I always try to discern the issue, just me I like to know.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

brian john said:


> I always try to discern the issue, just me I like to know.


I hear you but it was not worth it too me to drive 3 hours south to hang with the crew overnight that did the change.

I handled ordering the supplies and getting the new interior built.

It was like 16K for the new interior.


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

BBQ said:


> I hear you but it was not worth it too me to drive 3 hours south to hang with the crew overnight that did the change.
> 
> I handled ordering the supplies and getting the new interior built.
> 
> It was like 16K for the new interior.


material and labor. etc., right?


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BBQ said:


> I hear you but it was not worth it too me to drive 3 hours south to hang with the crew overnight that did the change.
> 
> I handled ordering the supplies and getting the new interior built.
> 
> It was like 16K for the new interior.


Don't these stores have you doing routine inspection and testing to avoid that kind of damage??


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

BuzzKill said:


> material and labor. etc., right?


No that was my cost for the interior as long as I waited a week, if I wanted it fast it would have been about 21K.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> Don't these stores have you doing routine inspection and testing to avoid that kind of damage??


Nope. :no:

They called me because they where having power quality issues.


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

BBQ said:


> No that was my cost for the interior as long as I waited a week, if I wanted it fast it would have been about 21K.


f*ckin A!


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Nope. :no:
> 
> They called me because they where having power quality issues.


Did you try to sell them much cheaper insurance like routine inspection??


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> Did you try to sell them much cheaper insurance like routine inspection??


Nope, it is not worth to them.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Nope, it is not worth to them.


So a $30,000.00 repair is better than a $300.00 yearly inspection.. :blink:

If they had a fire it could be $300,000.00.. but they would say that is what they pay insurance for.. :no:

Take your personal pic out of the avatar.. I'm blind!!!


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> So a $30,000.00 repair is better than a $300.00 yearly inspection.. :blink:
> 
> If they had a fire it could be $300,000.00.. but they would say that is what they pay insurance for..


I really don't care, I make money either way.

I also will not pretend to know what makes more sense for them, they are a long established large corporation. 




> Take your personal pic out of the avatar.. I'm blind!!!


:thumbup:


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

BBQ said:


> I also will not pretend to know what makes more sense for them, they are a long established large corporation.


Tell them to call B4T, he'll tell them whats best for them. (and you and me and Hugh Hefners wife and everybody else)


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

electricmanscott said:


> Tell them to call B4T, he'll tell them whats best for them. (and you and me and Hugh Hefners wife and everybody else)


Scott.. why not just put me on ignore..I have nothing to say that is any use for you..

This whole forum is about personal opinions on different subjects.. you don't like mine.. I can't help that.

Use the Ignore feature and ask Ken if you have trouble getting it to work.. :thumbsup:


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

B4T said:


> Scott.. why not just put me on ignore..I have nothing to say that is any use for you..
> 
> This whole forum is about personal opinions on different subjects.. you don't like mine.. I can't help that.
> 
> Use the Ignore feature and ask Ken if you have trouble getting it to work.. :thumbsup:


While you are correct, what fun would that be? :no:


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Copper or AL ..... failures are messy.


Bob, Great pics.
I see some "splatter" on the top of the lug to the right of the burned lug plus a little more on the framing to the right. It looks like a textbook "heat from loose connection" to me. Did you find any signs of rodents or foreign material in the panelboard?


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## Wiredude (May 14, 2010)

Geez, so obvious, it must have been the BLUE tape that was defective...:jester:


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

By the signs of heat on the bus bar that appears to most likely have been a factory defect on the lug/bar joint connection.


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## kwired (Dec 20, 2009)

BBQ said:


> No that was my cost for the interior as long as I waited a week, if I wanted it fast it would have been about 21K.


Looks like probably non stock panelboard especially with the lower portion being made to accept the miniature breakers. 

Would have a stocked item been less cost and faster? I realize just replacing the interior would be less labor. The minature breakers would not have to be there, those loads could easily have been fed from a larger frame breaker - or even been moved to a sub panel. You possibly could have ordered a different interior that still fit into the cabinet. 

You had two breakers on top not used so there was some extra room for possible different panel arrangement.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

kwired said:


> Looks like probably non stock panelboard especially with the lower portion being made to accept the miniature breakers.


The interior had to be made at the CH panel shop.




> Would have a stocked item been less cost and faster?


Do you realize the size of this panelboard?

No one would stock such a unit.



> I realize just replacing the interior would be less labor.


Are you suggesting we should have replaced the tub? 

Holy crap Batman, that would have taken the better part of 12 - 14 hours easily which would have been an unacceptable amount of downtime to the customer. This was the main distribution panel.




> The minature breakers would not have to be there, those loads could easily have been fed from a larger frame breaker - or even been moved to a sub panel.


Man, peoples hindsight is 20/20 when they are sitting at home without seeing the entire situation. :laughing:



> You possibly could have ordered a different interior that still fit into the cabinet.


Possibly, most likely. 

But would it shown up as quick and would we know for a fact that once we ripped the old one apart the new one would go right in and close up properly?



> You had two breakers on top not used so there was some extra room for possible different panel arrangement.


Next time we will call you in to show us how to do it.


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## kwired (Dec 20, 2009)

I know that if this panel were a Square D and all I ordered was the interior or just a couple of the breakers the price would have been horrible like $16-20K

If I ordered a panel, breakers, and enclosure I could probably get it all for $3 - 5K. 

If I needed some other items for upcoming jobs like some small disconnects or motor starters a QO panel or two plus some breakers, I can put them on the order and still get a total of $5 - 8K

I more recently had one job with a single size 2 starter in a 3R enclosure that thing was about 7 or $800.

Not much later I had a job with something like 4 size 2 starters, 6 size 1 starters, a 42 circuit NF panelboard and enclosure, plus breakers to mostly fill it and the total was only about $4500.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

kwired said:


> I know that if this panel were a Square D and all I ordered was the interior or just a couple of the breakers the price would have been horrible like $16-20K


The 16K was for the interior with breakers.

21K would have been the cost to have the panel shop drop what they are doing and make our unit imediatly.




> If I ordered a panel, breakers, and enclosure I could probably get it all for $3 - 5K.



Really?? I say if you needed that one panel fast you would be paying much more than 3-5K.



> If I needed some other items for upcoming jobs like some small disconnects or motor starters a QO panel or two plus some breakers, I can put them on the order and still get a total of $5 - 8K


Yeah, we package stuff together for _planned jobs_, not emergencies calls.

You do understand that time was the overriding factor here and that as an electrical contractor we make money by selling equipment? :blink:


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## kwired (Dec 20, 2009)

BBQ said:


> ..
> 
> Really?? I say if you needed that one panel fast you would be paying much more than 3-5K.
> 
> ...


Depends on your supplier also. The 3-5K I mentioned was a price set by Square D the distributor has their markup built in there but is set by SqD.

My distributor has several stores in several locations and if between all their stores they have all the parts in stock to build what I need I can have it however fast they can get it shipped to me. If it comes directly from Square D it is up to them how fast I will get it, and for extra $$ they will hurry a little.

The panelboard in your picture looked fairy standard besides the section that accepted the miniature breakers. I may have tried to get something without this feature if it would be faster and easier to get, and maybe less expensive. I could still sell it for $21K if I want - I am in the service business also.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Bob, any chance this was in an old lady's house you thief. :laughing:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

electricmanscott said:


> Bob, any chance this was in an old lady's house you thief. :laughing:



Yes, absolutely. :thumbup:

Of course she was loaded with money and a current member of Mensa but no matter what you charge an old lady you are ripping her off 'cause shes stupid and old'.:laughing:


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

Was there enough slack in that B phase to pull it up to the lugs or did you splice it with kerneys?


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

BuzzKill said:


> Was there enough slack in that B phase to pull it up to the lugs or did you splice it with kerneys?


We replaced all the supply conductors, they were 500s which were undersized. We installed 600s, they only go about 10' outside the panel to the service disconnecting means.

Besides, if you look at this picture the original install was done to tight and they had to try to protect the C phase conductors from being cut buy the panel frame.


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

BBQ said:


> We replaced all the supply conductors, they were 500s which were undersized. We installed 600s, they only go about 10' outside the panel to the service disconnecting means.


A and C phase too huh? Nice job. No shortcuts there, plus, better to be safe than sorry I suppose.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Did you do anything that kept the panel in service or it worked fine _most_ of the time??


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

BuzzKill said:


> A and C phase too huh? Nice job. No shortcuts there, plus, better to be safe than sorry I suppose.


I added to my post to show you why we did them all.

If I am asked to repair something I try to give them something at least as good as they had before, I am not big on 're-engineering' it just to save a couple pf bucks that day.


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

BBQ said:


> I added to my post to show you why we did them all.
> 
> If I am asked to repair something I try to give them something at least as good as they had before, I am not big on 're-engineering' it just to save a couple pf bucks that day.


oh okay.:thumbsup:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> Did you do anything that kept the panel in service or it worked fine _most_ of the time??


If I had my way I would have shut it down as soon as I saw it, there are some other pictures that show more problems that worried me.

But shutting this down was really not an option, this was a medium sized busy supermarket and even if they sucked up the lost business issue there would still be an entire stores worth of refrigerated / frozen goods that would have to be moved into trailers. 

I also highly recommended paying the extra money to get the panel faster but the store management decided to roll the dice and wait a week. 

They won, it did last until we replaced it.


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

So it sat a week in that condition? No tapping it up as a precautionary measure? Rolling the dice for sure.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Did your boss want a signed release that would not hold them responsible if the panel went up in flames??


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> Did your boss want a signed release that would not hold them responsible if the panel went up in flames??


As always you never fail to make me laugh. :laughing:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BBQ said:


> As always you never fail to make me laugh. :laughing:


Well thats nice, now could you answer the question..


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> Well thats nice, now could you answer the question..



OK, No we did not make the customer sign anything, no need to. 

You guys need to stop thinking you are responsible for all things electrical once you walk onto a building. 

Of course there was a huge email trail with pictures bouncing around our offices and the customers offices that if need be could be used to show we notified them.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BBQ said:


> OK, No we did not make the customer sign anything, no need to.
> 
> You guys need to stop thinking you are responsible for all things electrical once you walk onto a building.


That is kind of hard to do because on one hand you say we are responsible for life, anything we install in a customers house that causes injury or death.

Then on the other hand you have pics of lugs melting and it is labeled a stupid question, by you, if any liability releases were signed.

Kind of hard to get a clear picture where the safe place is..

Panel catches fire.. store shoppers run for the exits and someone dies of a heart attack.

The store fire caused the mans death.. the fire was caused by known electrical equipment malfunction.. your company is in the bullseye also.


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

You have a point there, but as BBQ said, there is just too much evidence to the contrary that the EC would be to blame here.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> That is kind of hard to do because on one hand you say we are responsible for life, anything we install in a customers house that causes injury or death.


I see a huge diffreance between being libable for things we install and being liable for things we simply observe.






> The store fire caused the mans death.. the fire was caused by known electrical equipment malfunction.. your company is in the bullseye also.


When I go back to the office tomorrow I will walk down the hall from my office to the company attorneys office and let him know that an electrician from LI is not comfortable with the operation of this 40-75 million a year company. :laughing:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BBQ said:


> When I go back to the office tomorrow I will walk down the hall from my office to the company attorneys office and let him know that an electrician from LI is not comfortable with the operation of this 40-75 million a year company. :laughing:


So you had an attorney involved in the process and he said don't worry about it.. :blink::blink:

I wonder where all the hazard and caution labels come from that are plastered all over ladders and tools..


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> So you had an attorney involved in the process and he said don't worry about it.. :blink::blink:


Well we have a full time attorney in our office and his job is to protect us. But no I did not call him specifically and go over this particular job.



Perhaps .... just perhaps .... he knows the law better than you or I do.

Just a thought ... 


As I already mentioned, there was a large email trail and emails can be used in court if need be.





> I wonder where all the hazard and caution labels come from that are plastered all over ladders and tools..


And that has to do with an electrical problem how? :blink:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

This is what worried me more










Look at the red circle and that small gap is all that is in between phase C and ground.

Phase B had already made contact with ground and blew a large hole in the grounded section of metal. That might have been the start of the problem with B.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BuzzKill said:


> You have a point there, but as BBQ said, there is just too much evidence to the contrary that the EC would be to blame here.


You forget lawyers can suck blood out of a rock because they get 33% of the award.

Insurance companies most of the time settle out of court because it can cost more than the judgment to fight the charges.

Unless you have been there, you have no clue what lawyers are capable of when they see a pot full of money for the taking..


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> You forget lawyers can suck blood out of a rock because they get 33% of the award.
> 
> Insurance companies most of the time settle out of court because it can cost more than the judgment to fight the charges.
> 
> Unless you have been there, you have no clue what lawyers are capable of when they see a pot full of money for the taking..


I am done talking DIY law. :laughing:

If you want to talk electrical I am in.


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

(face palm) okay, whatever, I should have know better than to comment on yet another thread dealing with liability when you are involved.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

B4T said:


> That is kind of hard to do because on one hand you say we are responsible for life, anything we install in a customers house that causes injury or death.
> 
> Then on the other hand you have pics of lugs melting and it is labeled a stupid question, by you, if any liability releases were signed.
> 
> ...



How the f*** do you even make it through the day.


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

B4T said:


> You forget lawyers can suck blood out of a rock because they get 33% of the award.
> 
> Insurance companies most of the time settle out of court because it can cost more than the judgment to fight the charges.
> 
> Unless you have been there, you have no clue what lawyers are capable of when they see a pot full of money for the taking..


Have you been there?


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## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

B4T said:


> That is kind of hard to do because on one hand you say we are responsible for life, anything we install in a customers house that causes injury or death.
> 
> Then on the other hand you have pics of lugs melting and it is labeled a stupid question, by you, if any liability releases were signed.
> 
> ...


Oh please. You guys are too much. It was brought to the clients attention and he opted to save a few bucks. Did you want BBQ to hold a gun to their heads?


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

I love court sometimes, I was appointed an "expert witness" in a trial against a guy stealing a generator. He was trying to convince the jury that hacksawing the exhaust and gas line for removal was normal for sheduled maintanance. I think that's only time I got along with the DAs office.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Bkessler said:


> Have you been there?


Yes I have and I am STILL in the middle of it.. non electrical and still dealing with lawyers looking for a fat pay day


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

electricmanscott said:


> How the f*** do you even make it through the day.


I do just fine.. luckily I am not a moron and pay attention to what goes on around me


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

B4T said:


> Yes I have and I am STILL in the middle of it.. non electrical and still dealing with lawyers looking for a fat pay day


give us some details.....so we can judge you some more.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Bkessler said:


> give us some details.....so we can judge you so more.


:laughing::laughing:


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

What the hell am I reading here? :huh:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Jlarson said:


> What the hell am I reading here? :huh:


A bunch of opinions on different topics and as usual some loud mouths have trouble with what I have to say..


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

B4T said:


> A bunch of opinions on different topics and as usual some loud mouths have trouble with what I have to say..


We apologize for having problems with your wrong ideas/beliefs :laughing:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Jlarson said:


> We apologize for having problems with your wrong ideas/beliefs :laughing:


:laughing::laughing::no:


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