# Flat mud rings



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Chris Kennedy said:


> I got a call today from a guy that has tilt-slab exterior walls with furring and ½" rock. He doesn't want to chip into the tilt walls, asked if it was OK to use 4×4×1¼ 1900 with a flat mud ring.
> 
> Anyone see a problem with this install?


 

you won't get a GFI in it


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> you won't get a GFI in it


Sure you can just use these..


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## Chris Kennedy (Nov 19, 2007)

We don't use Gfci's, too pricey.:laughing:

I mean from a code stand point. Rumor around these parts is that flats are illegal. I looked at 314.20 and 21 and don't see a problem.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Chris Kennedy said:


> We don't use Gfci's, too pricey.:laughing:
> 
> I mean from a code stand point. Rumor around these parts is that flats are illegal. I looked at 314.20 and 21 and don't see a problem.


 
Codewise is fine AFAIK


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> Sure you can just use these..


I wonder if he got that Carlon blue box out of a remodel job and he saved it for a "show N tell' .. :laughing:


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## tkb (Jan 21, 2009)

Chris Kennedy said:


> I got a call today from a guy that has tilt-slab exterior walls with furring and ½" rock. He doesn't want to chip into the tilt walls, asked if it was OK to use 4×4×1¼ 1900 with a flat mud ring.
> 
> Anyone see a problem with this install?


I never saw the point of a flat plaster ring.
If you use the shallow 4" sq box you still need a raised plaster ring to get through the drywall.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

You would have to use all 2-gang plates if you go that route.


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## Chris Kennedy (Nov 19, 2007)

tkb said:


> If you use the shallow 4" sq box you still need a raised plaster ring to get through the drywall.


Why? The guy has ¾ furring with ½ rock, thats an 1¼. So even with a flat ring on an 1¼ 1900 the 8/32's will stick out over an 1/8 so the drywall finisher is going to have to get crafty.


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## Chris Kennedy (Nov 19, 2007)

InPhase277 said:


> You would have to use all 2-gang plates if you go that route.


Shallow 1900, 18 cubes, one 12/2 in and one 12/2 out with device = 7 12's. Thats 15.75 cubes. Two gang won't change this as the ring doesn't count.

Edit, saw OP says plate not ring.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

We did a rent a center remodel that was built that. It had flat plaster rings.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

How are you going to drywall over a flat mud ring when it's on the same plane as the paper on the rock?


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

480sparky said:


> How are you going to drywall over a flat mud ring when it's on the same plane as the paper on the rock?


I don't know what size wood they shimmed the rock with on the building I did but the mud ring was slightly below the level of the rock when installed.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

jwjrw said:


> I don't know what size wood they shimmed the rock with on the building I did but the mud ring was slightly below the level of the rock when installed.



So the drywallers are going to have to shave a 4"x4" square around each box on the back side of the rock before they hang it, then cut the opening through from the finished side, leaving just a sliver of drywall & the paper between your eyes and the mud ring?

If you've got ¾" furring, and ½" rock, you've got 1¼". If you use a 1¼" deep box, the flat mud ring is going to be at the same level as the finished side of the drywall, not behind it.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Forget this post....


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

B4T said:


> Hmmmmm.. a shallow 1900 box (4X4 )is *1 1/2" deep*.. a deep 1900 box is 2 1/8" deep..
> 
> You guys need a bigger ruler.. :laughing:



Try a Steel City #52141.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Try a Steel City #52141.


New to me, but you are right.. :thumbsup:

I have ordered thousands of 1900 boxes over the years and they came (2) ways.. deep and shallow.. never once was I asked how shallow..


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

My point about the drywall is this:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Last time I was in a local printing shop, they had painted walls with these plates mounted on the boxes.. the owner said the GC screwed up..

I think the GC did the work himself and screwed it up.. :thumbsup:


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

It wont work Chris, unless you use a 2 gang flat and I think the plate will cover the cutout for the entire 4" sq. box.

I always make my builders fur it out a full 1 1/2" with an additional 1/2" rock. 2" total.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

If they use 5/8" rock you could use a handy box. I have also used a 1 gang wiremold box.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> It wont work Chris, unless you use a 2 gang flat and I think the plate will cover the cutout for the entire 4" sq. box.
> 
> I always make my builders fur it out a full 1 1/2" with an additional 1/2" rock. 2" total.


The guys around here use Z bar that is 1 1/2", so I use a flat mud ring that makes it flush with the back of the drywall..

Then they use 1 1/2" rigid foam insulation board after I run my conduit


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

B4T said:


> The guys around here use Z bar that is 1 1/2", so I use a flat mud ring that makes it flush with the back of the drywall..
> 
> Then they use 1 1/2" rigid foam insulation board after I run my conduit




314.20. :whistling2:


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

That was my point from post #8. Since the face of the plate is flush with the surface of the sheetrock. If you use quad receptacles and two gang switches, the plate will cover the cutout.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

480sparky said:


> 314.20. :whistling2:


I know.. but the inspectors here use common sense and don't see the missing 1/4" an imminent danger to humans, pets, or wildlife.. 

I tried using a raised cover and the rockers moaned and complained.. it was about a $70,000.00 job that kept me busy for (9) months

The owner told me what he wanted.. I got the message.. :thumbsup:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

InPhase277 said:


> That was my point from post #8. Since the face of the plate is flush with the surface of the sheetrock. If you use quad receptacles and two gang switches, the plate will cover the cutout.



Or use:








​


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

If the electrical inspectors there tell you its illegal to use those (its not) then substitute this which probably should be- Take a 1/2" rise one and put it on backwards.......:laughing:


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

macmikeman said:


> If the electrical inspectors there tell you its illegal to use those (its not) then substitute this which probably should be- Take a 1/2" rise one and put it on backwards.......:laughing:


Or just kick them in the nuts and use the flat ones.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

480sparky said:


> Or use:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


In my area those seem to be exceedingly hard to come by. It took my supplier forever to get me three of them.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

InPhase277 said:


> In my area those seem to be exceedingly hard to come by. It took my supplier forever to get me three of them.


 They have those in home depot up here..


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

I would recommend he stud 2x4 on 16" centers. I know that not what you want to hear, but its really the best way to go.

I see no issue with a flat mud ring. I have never used a flat ring and have no idea how the sheet rocker can cut the box in?


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Flat mud rings are designed for stuff like formica laminated onto wood. But you could use them the way the op is asking. Why they have so many in stock at H.D. is a mystery, somebody must be buying and using them or they would go away. I almost never see a hack job with them in the real world but they must be out there someplace.


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## ampchamp (Jul 18, 2010)

never works out with the drywall, better off having them fur out at least the 1-1/2" for the box


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Chris Kennedy said:


> I got a call today from a guy that has tilt-slab exterior walls with furring and ½" rock. He doesn't want to chip into the tilt walls, asked if it was OK to use 4×4×1¼ 1900 with a flat mud ring.
> 
> Anyone see a problem with this install?


No problem, just use flathead 8-32s and everybody will be happy.
You can use a 180 box but really should be one pipe in it.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

B4T said:


> New to me, but you are right.. :thumbsup:
> 
> I have ordered thousands of 1900 boxes over the years and they came (2) ways.. deep and shallow.. never once was I asked how shallow..



Regular 1900
Deep 1900
Shallow 1900


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## Chris Kennedy (Nov 19, 2007)

jrannis said:


> You can use a 180 box but really should be one pipe in it.


The smallest handy box listed in T314.16(A) is 1½" and has a capacity of 7.5 cubes. One 12/2 MC in and one device takes up 11.25 cubes, violation.


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## tkb (Jan 21, 2009)

Chris Kennedy said:


> exterior walls with furring and ½" rock.


This has always been a problem that no one has ever found a solution for.

The only solution that I have ever seen has been to chip the block or concrete to allow a box to be installed with a plaster ring.


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## Chris Kennedy (Nov 19, 2007)

tkb said:


> This has always been a problem that no one has ever found a solution for.
> 
> The only solution that I have ever seen has been to chip the block or concrete to allow a box to be installed with a plaster ring.


Yeah, when dealing engineered tilts not chipping into them saves RFI's.


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## tkb (Jan 21, 2009)

Is it possible that you could use a surface Wiremold box attached to the concrete and have the drywall finished to the box?

This would allow the depth you need but it would stick out of the wall, but it is a finished box for surface mounting so it might not look that bad if the drywaller can do a good job.

It would be a semi-flush box.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

tkb said:


> This has always been a problem that no one has ever found a solution for.
> 
> The only solution that I have ever seen has been to chip the block or concrete to allow a box to be installed with a plaster ring.


The real solution is for the ahole architect to come up with a realistic plan.


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## tkb (Jan 21, 2009)

electricmanscott said:


> The real solution is for the ahole architect to come up with a realistic plan.


I agree, but they always design something that is not possible and expect us to perform miracles.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

tkb said:


> I agree, but they always design something that is not possible and expect us to perform miracles.



_Electrician_ rhymes with _magician_, so they must do the same thing.


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## CTshockhazard (Aug 28, 2009)

¾ furring vs. 1½ dimensional lumber, just think about how much bigger the room will be!


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

CTshockhazard said:


> ¾ furring vs. 1½ dimensional lumber, just think about how much bigger the room will be!


No kidding.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Chris,
I installed some shallow 1900 boxes and put 1/8" raised mud rings on them but flipped them so that the 1/8" was inside the box. I installed the rings with flat head screws and it seemed to work out.

have you thought of using these?:

http://www.drillspot.com/products/679849/bryant_21254-b_quad_receptacle


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## DoCJohnny (Feb 16, 2011)

The only time I use flat mud rings is when installing a surface mounted single gang device to a surface mounted 1900 box, such as a pull station or thermostat on a block wall.


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