# How to restore the Merit/non-union shops integrity



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

...And the NECA for that matter. 

I propose there is simply too much competition. NYC limits the number of yellow cabs (every city does) to prevent chaos, and be better able to enforce minimum standards so that excess competition doesn't result in the public losing out.

There are simply too many licensed contractors, the number needs to be severly limited to ensure a market that is viable enough to support all of the licensees and all of the workers.

There is no doubt that competition forces prices down, but too much competition causes many negatives to appear as the starving start racing for the few remaining crumbs. Competition was meant to result in better product, better service, and a self-correcting self-regulating system that would be fair to all. But is it? Is fair achieved for all parties when freemarket forces cause wages to depress or stagnate? 

Was the free market designed or intended to create a situation where the biggest winners have the lowest standards? Before someone cries "socialist" let me remind- yes this is a society, and we're all a part of it, shouldn't the main objective be to make everyones lives a little better, and not set the stage where sufferage on one end causes wealth on the other?


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

First off, you would actually have us believe you care about non-union shops? 

Isn't a license extremely hard to get in NYC anyway? Doesn't it take years and years to get? You would make that process even harder? 

You're talking about a city of 8 million with the suburbs having several million more. Is this really an issue?


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

I guess the cat got your tongue, but what the heck, I'll ask a few more. What method or system do you propose to limit competition?

And you do realize putting laws or regulations in place that will limit competition will only create a black market, right?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)




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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Peter D said:


> First off, you would actually have us believe you care about non-union shops?


Why wouldn't I? An employee of a nonunion contractor is in the same boat as an employee of a union contractor - both trying to earn a living.



> Isn't a license extremely hard to get in NYC anyway? Doesn't it take years and years to get? You would make that process even harder?


I wouldn't touch the process of licensing as any locality sees fit, but actual business licensing yes... there's just too many contractors from huge to the thousands of one man bands and mom & pops. I'm looking at the industry as a whole here...




> You're talking about a city of 8 million with the suburbs having several million more. Is this really an issue?


Of course it's an issue. It's not about population numbers it's about % of electrical workers against the population. Too many people trying to out-compete each other drives wages AND profits down. I'm not suggesting a monopoly here, I'm suggesting, like in my example, only so many businesses doing the same thing can exist before they all hurt each other and turn the trade into a circus.

How many airlines are there? 8? Why do you think only one electrical utility exists in any given area? (Though I know there is one place that has 2) You saw the other post with the Craigslist Ad? 










Is this what it's coming down to? Electrical shops turning into streetcorner bodegas, where there are so many of them you can't get a decent fresh sandwich in ANY of them because none of them can afford to keep fresh cold cuts?


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Peter D said:


> I guess the cat got your tongue, but what the heck, I'll ask a few more.


No... but I can't post all night from work like Bob can, I'm not that efficient or productive.



> What method or system do you propose to limit competition?


Limiting the number of actiive licenses or business licenses. 



> And you do realize putting laws or regulations in place that will limit competition will only create a black market, right?


True, but the black market could only get so big, and couldn't pull a permit or advertize.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

How to restore the merit shops integrity...................

There should be ratio's for all work not just P.W. jobs.Right now in Pennsylvania(I don't know about else where)There's no ratio laws so the typical merit shop model is 4,5,6 "helpers" and 1 "electrician" barking orders and pointing his finger.

All electricians should have to be licensed(in PA only the contractor needs to be licensed)and all electricians should have to have some form of education and continuous education so this way the merit shop can't just hire any swinging d*ck off the street.

There should also be a PW for all construction work so this way the "kid" doing all the humpbusting,back braking,manual labor,isn't stuck at $9 per hour until some god complex big shot foreman feels he's finally earned his measly $1 raise.

Let's hold our trade in a little higher regard,the merit shops keep on insisting that the union electricians make to much money.Well how much should we make 18,20,21$ per hour.If I wanted to make a bus drivers salary I would have been a bus driver,much easier then construction.Also I keep hearing about let the "market" dictate the wages.Well if the market dictated wages we would all be working for free.Stop racing each other to the bottom.Start commanding what the work is worth.Even Pep Boys charges $85 per hour.

If you want to be in business,then you have to pay the price of being in business.Supply the tools needed.No one should have to have there own power tools.I mean I have to work at $9 or $10 per hour and supply my own power tools,it's starting to sound like being an electrician isn't that good of a job.I know not all merit shops make you have your own power tools but many do.

Stop slave driving your labor.If I work 70+ hours a week for months on end,and then I decide I need a week end off,please don't tell me I'm screwing the shop and hurting the job.But since I took that week end off you decide to black ball me from all over time for awhile and send me to the furthest job possible.(Yes this exact scenario happened to me).

Please,please,please listen to your men.If the whole entire shop is bringing something to your attention don't ignore it.If there telling you that one of your foreman are customer stealing,hour whoring,material shorting,screaming assholes please address the situation.

At the big company Christmas party don't brake the news to the men that your not contributing to the 401k any more and that your going to a "better" insurance plan(in reality it's a cheaper plan to you but more expensive to us).Also at the same party don't tell us you had a "slow" year and can't afford raises this year,After all,everyone had all the overtime possible and your driving a brand new BMW and you just bought your vacation home in Florida,I mean,good for you but don't piss down our backs and tell us it's raining.

And for the working owners out there.Please treat your guy's with a little bit of respect.No need to curse them out in front of customers and G.C's just because your frustrated at how the jobs going and you just found out you missed all the electric heat in the stair towers in the bid...

And for the owners who are never around pop in once in awhile because the men are tired of the god complex no it all foreman talking to them like assholes and playing favoritism.But then again maybe this is what you want......


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

It is funny how little you guys really know about open shops. :laughing:


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

I think a good start would to require electrical materials to be purchased by electrical contractors.
I don't know about other parts of the country but, you have to have an A/C license to purchase most mechanical equipment here. 

I think it hurts the entire industry when people can purchase incorrect materials to install entire electrical systems in unsuspecting peoples homes and businesses.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> It is funny how little you guys really know about open shops. :laughing:



Of course because we never worked for an open shop:whistling2:

But yet you seem to know everything about union shops but you never worked for one.

So I worked open shop and union(actually I worked open shop longer then I have been union so far)But I don't know anything about open shops and it's all propaganda and lies.I just made it up out of thin air.

And of course the opinions of others are meaningless unless they agree with yours.

You must be that god complex foreman.In your eyes your the only one aloud to make a decent wage and everyone else is just a helper,right.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> It is funny how little you guys really know about open shops. :laughing:


Bob,

Pently of us have worked both sides and know the difference.

I spent years on local union the examining board. To this day I still run into guys that shake my hand, some with tears in their eyes, thanking me for helping them get in. They now earn a living wage, have a pension or if needed, a good disability to rely on. Paid family health/ dental/ vision insurance.

These are hard working men that were exploited working non-union. We took the time to train them, formally educate them at our expense, and take them in as brothers. They, in exchange are now are hard working brothers that contribute to the training and education of the future of our local.

So Bob,
You can sit in your office, collect your management pay, play on the computer, and pretend everyone that works below you is content with their wages and benefits.

WE DO KNOW THE DIFFERENCE! 

YOU OBVIOUSLY DO NOT!


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

jrannis said:


> Bob,
> 
> Pently of us have worked both sides and know the difference.
> 
> ...



:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

jrannis said:


> Bob,
> 
> Pently of us have worked both sides and know the difference.


I know you guys have worked both sides.

But what you guys are stuck on is that you think all merit shops are the same.

If you where foolish enough to work for a shop that was bad shame on you and no one else.



> I spent years on local union the examining board. To this day I still run into guys that shake my hand, some with tears in their eyes, thanking me for helping them get in. They now earn a living wage, have a pension or if needed, a good disability to rely on. Paid family health/ dental/ vision insurance.


Great, and I mean that. If someone wants to get in then they should get in.

But when someone has no intrest in it leave them alone.


> These are hard working men that were exploited working non-union.


BS, no one in this trade is exploited without letting themselves be exploited. No one is holding a gun to any electrians head saying you have to work here for this amount of pay.






> We took the time to train them, formally educate them at our expense, and take them in as brothers. They, in exchange are now are hard working brothers that contribute to the training and education of the future of our local.


Again great, but we also provide all that as well.



> So Bob,
> You can sit in your office, collect your management pay, play on the computer,


Again you are talking about things you have no idea about.I am paid by the hour, I still have a company van and I still use the tools when needed.



> and pretend everyone that works below you is content with their wages and benefits


No one is 'below me' and as far as each man or womens satisfaction that is up to them to deal with, not me, not you.

Where is anyone's sense of self reliance?


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## Wingnut (Jan 31, 2010)

I don't see a company name or a license number in that ad. 
here its required to do so.

I would suspect that they have nether.


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

*How to restore the Merit/non-union shops integrity*


I didn't know there was a problem.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Dnkldorf said:


> *How to restore the Merit/non-union shops integrity*
> 
> 
> I didn't know there was a problem.



That's because when it comes to this topic you don't know much at all.


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

slickvic277 said:


> That's because when it comes to this topic you don't know much at all.


 
I'll give you that.......I haven't much experience in bad integrity......nor do I know any merit shops with bad integrities that need restoring.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Bob,
You are assuming that everyone has the capability to speak for themselves, or want to do something more than work hard, get dirty and go home tired.

Maybe everyone doesn't want to negotiate their wages and benefits and prefer to have someone represent them. It is really a very comforting to have this option.

Maybe your situation is the exception and I am glad you found a nice gig but,
you seem to think you are speaking for the average non-union electrician. You are not.

How does a man go home to his family and explain to them that he cannot earn the prevailing wage?
How does he explain that he cannot provide his family with good health insurance?
What does he tell his wife when his 62nd birthday rolls around and she is packing his lunch to go off to work until he drops dead.

Im honestly glad for you Bob. You truly have a nice situation.

But,

You do not speak for the average non-union electrician.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

this notion would be fine if the United States was a communist country; unfortunately it goes against everything that the "free market" stands for. The limitation of competition is only supposed to be touched by the government when it is for the public good. For instance, in the Chesapeake bay, the gov requires a charter captain to have a guide license. This allows them to attempt to control overfishing. I don't know the reasoning behind limiting cab licenses, but I'm sure it has a little something to do with grid lock in the city. Regulation of the power industry was supposed to be be for the public good. The point was argued years later, and deregulation began.

The gov has no business limiting competition unless it has a direct impact on the safety, welfare, etc. of the public. If you don't like competition, do something else. If you try to sell jobs to people based solely on the price, you are making a mistake. While many GCs take the lowest price, many others never take the lowest price. Home Depot is a perfect example of a type of cut throat competition. If you shop the prices, you will find that they sell some items (certain screws and nails) cheaper than mom and pop hardware stores can even buy them for, but on other items you might easily buy the items cheaper at normal suppliers. This is because their business model is to get people in the door for these common items, and it works pretty well. 

Operating a business is a cut throat, do or die proposition, and the gov has no business limiting competition. Think of all the down sides of this ridiculous proposition - it screams "old boy network". Do I want to pay even more taxes for some ineffective pencil neck geek to check on me (or do nothing for a fat check), just because I went into business before some guy younger than me ? 

The gov needs to regulate things that are vital/bad for the public - crime, pollution, infrastructure, basic licensing, etc., I am vehemently opposed to the gov being a baby sitter for every one and every thing. This idea is not just bad, it is absolutely friggin insane.

I am not trying to belittle anyone's idea or opinion, but I AM trying to convey just how bad an idea this is, and I hope anyone thinking this would consider the bad results of implementing non competition regulations on trade industries.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

jrannis said:


> Bob,
> You are assuming that everyone has the capability to speak for themselves, or want to do something more than work hard, get dirty and go home tired.


I have no idea what you mean, any electrician I have met has the means to speak for themselves.



> Maybe everyone doesn't want to negotiate their wages and benefits and prefer to have someone represent them. It is really a very comforting to have this option.


Fine, like I have said, if they want to join the union great, they can go and find the union. 



> Maybe your situation is the exception and I am glad you found a nice gig but,


It is not an expception in this area.




> you seem to think you are speaking for the average non-union electrician. You are not.


And neither are you. 



> How does a man go home to his family and explain to them that he cannot earn the prevailing wage?


Huh?



> How does he explain that he cannot provide his family with good health insurance?


Huh?



> What does he tell his wife when his 62nd birthday rolls around and she is packing his lunch to go off to work until he drops dead.


Huh?

Why do you feel people need to be held and cuddled, if they do not get off their own ass they should fall be the wayside.



> You do not speak for the average non-union electrician.


AND NEITHER DO YOU!


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

I still think that someone wiring a building or any dwelling should be able to prove that they have some educational and practical experience in that trade.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

wildleg said:


> this notion would be fine if the United States was a communist country; unfortunately it goes against everything that the "free market" stands for. The limitation of competition is only supposed to be touched by the government when it is for the public good.


You do realize that electrical workers are part of that public the government is supposed to be looking out for, don't you? Our free market is not free, there are many regulations and controls. If everyone starts dumping stock, circuit breakers halt the transactions to protect the remaining stockholders, and to the detriment of those wanting to get rid of an investment they just got bad news about...

We see now what an unregulated freemarket did to our banks, how many folded? How much in bailouts? Would you say the free market worked well here?



> For instance, in the Chesapeake bay, the gov requires a charter captain to have a guide license. This allows them to attempt to control overfishing. I don't know the reasoning behind limiting cab licenses, but I'm sure it has a little something to do with grid lock in the city.


Not gridlock - as any number of cars and trucks can come and go as they please. The reasoning behind requiring medallions on cabs (And a medallion costs about 250,000.00 now) was to limit the number of yellow cabs, because there were so many, none of them could earn enough to make a decent living due to competition, none of them could afford to keep the vehicles in good running order, with safe tires, brakes, etc... 

What the free market allowed to happen to yellow cabs is what the free market is doing to electrical and a lot of other building trades contractors. As the country loses good jobs overseas, a lot of people look for something else to do to earn a living. 30 years ago there were enough jobs that most wouldn't think of taking a job in construction, let alone an electrician.



> Regulation of the power industry was supposed to be be for the public good. The point was argued years later, and deregulation began.


And not a single utility lowered electric rates.



> The gov has no business limiting competition unless it has a direct impact on the safety, welfare, etc. of the public. If you don't like competition, do something else. If you try to sell jobs to people based solely on the price, you are making a mistake. While many GCs take the lowest price, many others never take the lowest price. Home Depot is a perfect example of a type of cut throat competition. If you shop the prices, you will find that they sell some items (certain screws and nails) cheaper than mom and pop hardware stores can even buy them for, but on other items you might easily buy the items cheaper at normal suppliers. This is because their business model is to get people in the door for these common items, and it works pretty well.


I understand your example and I'm aware of HD's business practices, but I don't see how it applies to the situation I'm promoting. 



> Operating a business is a cut throat, do or die proposition, and the gov has no business limiting competition. Think of all the down sides of this ridiculous proposition - it screams "old boy network". Do I want to pay even more taxes for some ineffective pencil neck geek to check on me (or do nothing for a fat check), just because I went into business before some guy younger than me ?
> 
> The gov needs to regulate things that are vital/bad for the public - crime, pollution, infrastructure, basic licensing, etc., I am vehemently opposed to the gov being a baby sitter for every one and every thing. This idea is not just bad, it is absolutely friggin insane.
> 
> I am not trying to belittle anyone's idea or opinion, but I AM trying to convey just how bad an idea this is, and I hope anyone thinking this would consider the bad results of implementing non competition regulations on trade industries.


Not non-competition, the prevention of over competition. 

Do you know how franchise territories work?

PS thank you for for your reply, though counter to my idea, you kept it civil and I appreciate your maturity.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Bob Badger said:


> I have no idea what you mean, any electrician I have met has the means to speak for themselves.


You admit some electricians have better capabilities than others, don't you? Are all electricians created equal in their negotiating skills? HAve you never heard of an employee speaking up about something and then getting canned?



> Fine, like I have said, if they want to join the union great, they can go and find the union.
> 
> It is not an expception in this area.


So you say. Yet posters have come here and affirmed these accusations all the time. More than 3 active participants here have experienced this first hand, yet for some incredible reason, nobody here has ever worked for one of these elusive top-notch merit shops where ratios are self-enforced, everyone is paid fairly, treated well, gets bonuses, and gets good benefits... 

And what is _really amazing_ is it seems any poster who claims such a merit shop exists just also happens to be incredibly outspoken against unions. Funny how that happens, huh? 



> Why do you feel people need to be held and cuddled, if they do not get off their own ass they should fall be the wayside.


That's right Bob, kick 'em to the curb. 



> AND NEITHER DO YOU!


Who do you think is closer to the truth?


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

jrannis said:


> I still think that someone wiring a building or any dwelling should be able to prove that they have some educational and practical experience in that trade.


I do as well and so do all the states I work in.

No electrical work can be done without at least a jman on the job, no more than 1 apprentice for each Jman. 

To become a Jman requires 8000 hrs in OJT and 600 to 800 hrs of approved class time. There are also contiuning eductaion requirments.

This applies to both union and non-union workers.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> You admit some electricians have better capabilities than others, don't you? Are all electricians created equal in their negotiating skills?


Of course all people are different. 





> HAve you never heard of an employee speaking up about something and then getting canned?


Sure and that is life, if that happens you pick up and get another job.

Life is a bitch.





> nobody here has ever worked for one of these elusive top-notch merit shops where ratios are self-enforced, everyone is paid fairly, treated well, gets bonuses, and gets good benefits...


Open your eys and stop listing to the hall, learn to think for yourself.







> That's right Bob, kick 'em to the curb.


Damn right if they cannot do the job.





> Who do you think is closer to the truth?


Certainly not you or John.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> I do as well and so do all the states I work in.
> 
> No electrical work can be done without at least a jman on the job, no more than 1 apprentice for each Jman.
> 
> ...


 
this is also the case in MD-DC-VA where I work. It really suprises me that there are states in the NE (PA, NY) that are lax on licensing for electricians. I am all for that.


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## BryanMD (Dec 31, 2007)

jrannis said:


> I still think that someone wiring a building or any dwelling should be able to prove that they have some educational and practical experience in that trade.


I think that someone CONTRACTING to get paid to do the wiring in a building or any dwelling should be able to prove that they have more than just "some" educational and practical experience in that trade. 

The EMPLOYEE's of these contractors are their responsibility alone to be competent and adequate to the task being performed.

The rest is about permits, inspections, insurance and economic coercion.
(the act of compelling by force of authority)


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

wildleg said:


> this is also the case in MD-DC-VA where I work. It really suprises me that there are states in the NE (PA, NY) that are lax on licensing for electricians. I am all for that.



In PA and NJ the only license requirement is for the contractor.He/she can then hire as many people as they like from where ever they like with or without education in the field.And the only Journeyman/apprentice rule and ratios that exist outside of union contracts are the laws pertaining to P.W. jobs.

So what usually happens is there's one maybe two "electricians" and then a whole bunch of 19 or 20 year old kids trying to brake into some sort of career doing all the labor.Pulling wire,digging trenches,drilling wholes,tamping mud,carrying material,getting coffee.Mean while there all making between 9 and 12 bucks an hour.The only education available to them is if they went to some half ass tech school(that's what i did) and got a job that way(also what I did)Then the tech school tells you that you will be hired at $9 per hour by one of THEIR contractors.

Now lets recap a little.

I went to a six month tech school that I paid $8000 for.I got hired at $9 per hour by one of THEIR contractors(9 is what they pay,you are not aloud to ask for more!).Now I'm thrown to the wolves and have to learn as I go,I was young and uneducated.They had me doing "hot" work 6 months in.So the whole time I'm making a conscience effort to work as hard as I can because I thought I was making a career for myself at this shop.Now let's fast forward a year.I ask for and get a whopping $2 raise.This takes me to $12 per hour.Here's were the ugly truth's about the merit system starts rearing it's ugly head.

So after my raise I'm approached by one of the lead foreman who has worked at this shop for around 10 years.He says to me "you got a $2 raise!that's crazy your not worth that kind of money".
Now I'm approached by another guy who had been at the shop for a few years and was a pretty good worker and a friend and he says"Your making as much as me,I haven't had a raise in over a year!"Now the resentment starts all over 12 bucks per hour!!!

So I spend 4 more years at this shop and I get to $15 when the younger foreman that I have been working with finds out he only makes $2 more then his "helper".He wasn't upset with me but this definitely raises a flag in my mind.So I start looking for new a shop because obviously this is dead end not to mention all the other crap that was going on.

Every interview I went on was the same crap.Well for a guy with 5 or 6 years comm/ind. experience we only pay around $14 per hour.Meanwhile there billing $75 per hour,get bent.
I did end up finding a job that paid $18 per hour but that was no beni's or retirement,so whats the difference.That guy ended up being the all time worst contractor ever.But that's all right because his guy's were smarter then the other shop's,we organized.

This is how the good old merit system works in my neck of the woods.You can keep it.


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## BryanMD (Dec 31, 2007)

A planned progression of technical education to go along with the practical OJT with recognized benchmarks of both total hours and objective skill/knowledge testing is a great thing. It would be even better if it were uniformly applied across the whole country.

But be very, very clear about what the real motivations are:
1) J & A Licensing is about creating a barrier to employment of "outsiders".
(exactly as contractor licensing does for the owners)

2) J:A ratio's are about employing journeymen.
(not safety or training or any of the other touchy feely crap)

Setting aside whether those (economic) motivations are right or wrong or good or bad for individuals, companies, the industry, etc... just please get off the high horses trying to pretend the reasons for licensing and regulation are other than the bucks.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*Merit/non union*

Like many, I can kind of see both sides. So many years have passed with unions AND companies pitting us against each other that it is hard for us to trust each other. That trust will still be hard to garner but I think it is possible, over time. 

In the meantime I think that we can help create MORE legitimate electrical work everywhere if we press for more oversight. Our electrical inspectors are in CODE ENFORCEMENT DIVISIONS, but they are so tied up in inspecting the jobs that are LEGALLY PERMITTED they cannot be expected to take a stroll around the block and look for work going on. I believe that we ought to push for more PERMIT enforcers.


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

Simple answer - become doctors or lawyers. When the supply of electricians decreases enough to create a demand, wages will increase exponentally. 

And when they do, all you rich doctors/lawyers/etc will be able to afford the $300 hourly rate.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

slickvic277 said:


> How to restore the merit shops integrity...................





slickvic277 said:


> There should be ratios for all work not just P.W. jobs. Right now in Pennsylvania (I don't know about elsewhere) There’s no ratio laws so the typical merit shop model is 4, 5, 6 "helpers" and 1 "electrician" barking orders and pointing his finger.




I have never seen an open shop with this ratio and I have worked for 100's of open shops




> and all electricians should have to have some form of education and continuous education so this way the merit shop can't just hire any swinging d*ck off the street.


I as a swing D I C K off the street and I'll go toe to toe with any electrician




> There should also be a PW for all construction work so this way the "kid" doing all the humpbusting, back braking, manual labor, isn’t stuck at $9 per hour until some god complex big shot foreman feels he's finally earned his measly $1 raise.


In an open shop (IN MY EXPIERENCE) the good guys do well and thee humps hump away.




> Let's hold our trade in a little higher regard, the merit shops keep on insisting that the union electricians make too much money. Well how much should we make 18, 20, 21$ per hour. If I wanted to make a bus drivers salary I would have been a bus driver, much easier then construction. Also I keep hearing about let the "market" dictate the wages. Well if the market dictated wages we would all be working for free. Stop racing each other to the bottom. Start commanding what the work is worth. Even Pep Boys charges $85 per hour.


 
Be a bus driver me I wanted more from my life I worked open shop for 8 years and always made top wages.




> If you want to be in business, then you have to pay the price of being in business. Supply the tools needed. No one should have to have their own power tools. I mean I have to work at $9 or $10 per hour and supply my own power tools; it’s starting to sound like being an electrician isn't that good of a job. I know not all merit shops make you have your own power tools but many do.


I agree and while I have heard that some shops tell their men to buy the tools none that I deal with do.




> Stop slave driving your labor. If I work 70+ hours a week for months on end, and then I decide I need a week end off, please don't tell me I'm screwing the shop and hurting the job. But since I took that week end off you decide to black ball me from all over time for awhile and send me to the furthest job possible.(Yes this exact scenario happened to me).


 
This is done across the board (union and open shop), often referred to as MAKING HAY WHILE THE SUNSHINES, as an owner and as an electrician I always worked 60-70 hours a week.




> Please, please, please listen to your men. If the whole entire shop is bringing something to your attention don't ignore it. If they’re telling you that one of your foreman are customer stealing, hour whoring, material shorting, screaming assholes please address the situation.


While there is some merit to this a few years ago I had an uprising and my men demanded, had I listened I would most likely be out of business they WERE WRONG I was right. While I take my men into account I own the shop and make all decisions.




> At the big company Christmas party don't break the news to the men that you’re not contributing to the 401k anymore and that you’re going to a "better" insurance plan(in reality it's a cheaper plan to you but more expensive to us).Also at the same party don't tell us you had a "slow" year and can't afford raises this year, After all, everyone had all the overtime possible and your driving a brand new BMW and you just bought your vacation home in Florida, I mean, good for you but don't piss down our backs and tell us it's raining.


I would never do this though some people will just as employees will quit when the swap is full and alligators are biting.




> And for the working owners out there, Please treat your guy's with a little bit of respect. No need to curse them out in front of customers and G.C's just because your frustrated at how the jobs going and you just found out you missed all the electric heat in the stair towers in the bid...


 
Once again this goes both ways.




> And for the owners who are never around pop in once in awhile because the men are tired of the god complex no it all foremen talking to them like assholes and playing favoritism. But then again maybe this is what you want......


 
Different things work for different people; once again this is not a merit shop idea anymore that it is a union shop idea.


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## Shado (Jan 1, 2009)

Wow...talk about creating a destructive meltdown of the trade!!!

You're proposing putting a huge amount of AMERICAN people out of work!!!:no:

1 - Where do these out of work folks get work now?
2 - Union can not and will not put them to work....it would kill your ratio preferences.
3 - How the hell does this support and uphold your 'Organize all in the trade' rule/goal?
4 - This supports the entitlement crap again....mememememe!!! The hell with them...as long as I got a job......

Lawn guy...sometimes say some very respectable and educational comments...and at other times.....you got crack in your kool aid!!!


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

brian john said:


> In an open shop (IN MY EXPIERENCE) the good guys do well and thee humps hump away.


I'll second this.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

jrannis said:


> Bob,
> You are assuming that everyone has the capability to speak for themselves, or want to do something more than work hard, get dirty and go home tired.
> 
> Maybe everyone doesn't want to negotiate their wages and benefits and prefer to have someone represent them. It is really a very comforting to have this option.
> ...


He tells his family I am a loser a F**king pu**Y, sorry honey you should have married a man with a back bone because I left mine in my Mommy's apron.

JEEZE are all the men you associate with wimps.


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

brian john said:


> He tells his family I am a loser a F**king pu**Y, sorry honey you should have married a man with a back bone because I left mine in my Mommy's apron.
> 
> JEEZE are all the men you associate with wimps.


glad you said it...i was thinking it...but i'm glad you said it:laughing:


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

brian john said:


> He tells his family I am a loser a F**king pu**Y, sorry honey you should have married a man with a back bone because I left mine in my Mommy's apron.
> 
> JEEZE are all the men you associate with wimps.


Nice Brian,
Are you saying that all of your guys are wimps that have to hide behind the working agreement?

I didn't think so.....

You write that check every month just like I do.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

> brian john
> 
> I have never seen an open shop with this ratio and I have worked for 100's of open shops


100's of shops?In what capacity?As an employee or as a sub contractor?I've worked for 3 non union contractors,not a big pool to draw from but they were all the same.Others that I know that have worked non union said it was the same way.And I'm not talking shops who do P.W. work because you have to have a real ratio then...



> I as a swing D I C K off the street and I'll go toe to toe with any electrician


O.K. good for you BUT you have education in the field,do you not?
I've seen guy's get hired with no education or experience just to pull wire and stuff boxes and then only to be let go when the job is done.
This is not good for the trade,for the labor or the GOOD shops trying to provide men with competitive wages,union or not.




> In an open shop (IN MY EXPIERENCE) the good guys do well and thee humps hump away.


No doubt there is some truth to this but it's not the rule.Everyone starts at the bottom but lot's and lot's of young kids,18,19,20 years old are being exploited by unscrupulous contractors.Well that's the way I felt after a while any way.




> Be a bus driver me I wanted more from my life I worked open shop for 8 years and always made top wages.


Listen I come from a meager background I wanted more for myself then what my parents had.So I picked a trade that I thought had a future in it.I paid for my tech school and found a job.But for the life of me I wasn't gonna waist 8,9,10 years at a shop waiting for "top wages" Because that's what I saw.I made the bus driver comment because the top guy's I new were making around what a Philly bus driver makes.



> I agree and while I have heard that some shops tell their men to buy the tools none that I deal with do.


Well I've worked for both.But when I was job hunting it seemed more wanted you to provide your own then not. 



> This is done across the board (union and open shop), often referred to as MAKING HAY WHILE THE SUNSHINES, as an owner and as an electrician I always worked 60-70 hours a week.


I understand this.But I've worked myself to exhaustion,away from home for months on end.If someone who has been killing themselves for you needs a brake don't punish them as an example to others.This is intimidation in my opinion.Anything over 40 hours should be up to the employee,not mandated by management.



> While there is some merit to this a few years ago I had an uprising and my men demanded, had I listened I would most likely be out of business they WERE WRONG I was right. While I take my men into account I own the shop and make all decisions.


Well at lease you listen to your men and heard what they had to say.
But you ARE a signatory contractor right?Democracy in the work place between employer and employee is a little more prevalent in an unionized work place as appose to a "do what I say and like it" merit shop.And even though you didnt give into your mens demands they probably respect you just because you listened. 




> I would never do this though some people will just as employees will quit when the swap is full and alligators are biting.


Just because you wouldn't.doesn't mean that others won't.It happened I was there.Pretty sh*tty way to treat people but hey thet's what your good merit gets you.



> Once again this goes both ways.


It sure does.But I never seen any employee curse out there employer and expect to keep there job.I was never talked to like that But have seen a couple of grown men screamed at.



> Different things work for different people; once again this is not a merit shop idea anymore that it is a union shop idea.


Maybe your right,but Ive seen these types a lot more in the open shop then in the union.At lease in the union I can file grievance and not fear for my job.In the merit world you pretty much have to take what's thrown at you.

We just had a civil back and forth conversation and you didn't even call me a dolt.You must be in a better mood today.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

jrannis said:


> Nice Brian,
> Are you saying that all of your guys are wimps that have to hide behind the working agreement?


No that is not at all what he said.

You had said ....



jrannis said:


> You are assuming that everyone has the capability to speak for themselves,


I believe Brian was speaking specifically about the guys _you said_ 'could not speak for themselves'.

Those ones are wimps.


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

slickvic277 said:


> .Anything over 40 hours should be up to the employee,not mandated by management.


There is no such thing as mandatory overtime, that I am aware of.

I believe I have the right to leave the job, and find another one, if I don't feel the companies working policies fit my lifestyle.


Screw managements working hours.....I'm outta here.....I'll go work somewhere else....right?

Would you agree?






> At lease in the union I can file grievance and not fear for my job.In the merit world you pretty much have to take what's thrown at you.


You're SOOOOOOO full of crap.



In merit shops the managements door is pretty much open at all times. You can walk in and talk to people, pretty much whoever you want.
Make na appointment and you can talk to the head cheese about whatever you want.


Even in Union Shops I know, managements door is open at all times.



You must of worked for the worst contractors known to Philly, if all this stuff you write, is true.

Which leads me to think, they were the only ones to hire you?:whistling2:


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Dnkldorf said:


> There is no such thing as mandatory overtime, that I am aware of.
> 
> I believe I have the right to leave the job, and find another one, if I don't feel the companies working policies fit my lifestyle.
> 
> ...



No mandated overtime.O.k. try telling the asswash foreman that your not coming in this weekend when there telling you"every one has to be here"

And if you don't like it you just up and quit right,it's that easy,screw your bills and responsibilities.I mean it's so easy to find a job that pays great wages and beni's in the merit world.:whistling2:

Just because you can talk to someone in management doesn't mean sh*t.If they don't like what you have to say, you take your job into your hands don't you.

I had a ton of job offers every interview I went on I was offered a job.But not for the right money,what these guy's wanted to pay,I made more as a short order cook in highschool.

I don't need to prove my work ethic to you.I've never been laid off or fired.I make an effort to set an example of being a hard dedicated worker and I try everyday to improve my knowledge of our trade.But I will not be a door mat or abused.

No doubt there s a few decent contractors out there in the merit world.
But despite what you think these are further and further apart.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Sorry guys, this is just another union debate thread just like this one: http://www.electriciantalk.com/f26/how-can-ibew-change-its-damaged-reputation-10836/ ...with the same arguments and comments.

So before this one gets to 1000 posts I am shutting it down. You all can keep the other one going.


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