# Recessed lights/no access



## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

This is my first job installing recessed lights where there is no access. My plan is to notch the wall/ceiling to get a wire up. Any tips on crossing bays or are these jobs a matter of making lots of holes?


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

I can't give any tips until you've spelled out how the structure is framed...

Whether this is a Romex racing job...

Lathe & Plaster?...

On and on it goes.

I'd take WAG and assume that this is a wood framed space -- with fire blocks -- ie NOT balloon construction -- and is less than forty-years old.

Figure out which way the joists / purloins are running ... where you can pick up your switch-leg to tap...

You'll want fish sticks if you've got the opportunity to fish through open trusses.

Get back with more details... and then the comments will come.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

telsa said:


> I can't give any tips until you've spelled out how the structure is framed... Whether this is a Romex racing job... Lathe & Plaster?... On and on it goes. I'd take WAG and assume that this is a wood framed space -- with fire blocks -- ie NOT balloon construction -- and is less than forty-years old. Figure out which way the joists / purloins are running ... where you can pick up your switch-leg to tap... You'll want fish sticks if you've got the opportunity to fish through open trusses. Get back with more details... and then the comments will come.


Built 86'
8 lights 
Wood construction 
Plaster 
Romex
Exposed support beam separating the lights 4/4

Feeding up the wall from a switched receptacle 
Which will get me into 1 bay (2 lights)


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

WronGun said:


> Built 86'
> 8 lights
> Wood construction
> Plaster
> ...


Just below the ceiling line above where your switch is going, use a 4" hole saw and save the 'puck'...On the ceiling do the same----- use an arger bit to drill the top plate of the wall (Do Not Notch it because that is butcher work)

from that first hole in the ceiling you should be able to fish to your first light fixture---that ceiling will have strapping so the void makes fishing in hats easy once you have it all set up.

Use lots of drop cloths and a good shop vac, wear a dust mask while cutting, save your lungs, you will need them 80 years from now.....


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

A 4x4 'beauty' beam in a 1986 construction is quite likely to be structurally fake... even if it's the 'real deal'... 

So double check as to which way the joists are going. The presumption is that they will be squared against the 4x4 beam.

I'm in a sheet rock part of the country -- and have zero experience with plaster.

But I hear that preserving the plaster near cuts is a huge factor. I leave it to others for the tricks.

Before tearing everything up, you know that you need to make your can penetrations. 

Once made they provide huge hints as to what's best.

Good luck.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Fishing is an acquired skill. And we can only give you so many hints.

We don't know how the building is framed. We don't know where there will be firestops (if any). We don't know how the mechanicals are installed (plumbing, ducts, etc). We don't know what crossbracing has been installed. We can't know where wood windbracing has been utilized.

Basically, it boils down do your knowledge of how homes were built in your area at that time. You'll need to mentally 'deconstruct' it. But even that sometimes turns out to be in error, and you end up with more holes than planned.

Such is the life of fishing.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

480sparky said:


> Fishing is an acquired skill. And we can only give you so many hints. We don't know how the building is framed. We don't know where there will be firestops (if any). We don't know how the mechanicals are installed (plumbing, ducts, etc). We don't know what crossbracing has been installed. We can't know where wood windbracing has been utilized. Basically, it boils down do your knowledge of how homes were built in your area at that time. You'll need to mentally 'deconstruct' it. But even that sometimes turns out to be in error, and you end up with more holes than planned. Such is the life of fishing.


I understand


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Black Dog said:


> Just below the ceiling line above where your switch is going, use a 4" hole saw and save the 'puck'...On the ceiling do the same----- use an arger bit to drill the top plate of the wall (Do Not Notch it because that is butcher work)
> 
> from that first hole in the ceiling you should be able to fish to your first light fixture---that ceiling will have strapping so the void makes fishing in hats easy once you have it all set up.
> 
> Use lots of drop cloths and a good shop vac, wear a dust mask while cutting, save your lungs, you will need them 80 years from now.....


 If you drill your hole at an angle you shouldn't have to cut out the ceiling. I would cut a big square in the wall, maybe 12" X 12". A pivoting head drill/driver with a 6" Daredevil bit will get in there with enough angle to get the fishtape headed in the right direction.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

If there are no spacers or sound bar in the ceiling, you might want to cut a long horizontal channel in the wall and have multiple switch legs coming out of your box. That means a 4 X 4 X 2 and a mud ring.


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## daveEM (Nov 18, 2012)

Re-do the ceiling. Before you do that tho...

A nice channel (a foot comes to mind, - drywall is cheap) across so you can see what's in the joist spaces... tin duct, 4" plumbing pipe, etc.

^^ Once you get the destruction cleared through your mind this can happen extremely fast. Drones come in with a small saw and by noon they are screwing up drywall and the smart guy is doing the first coat of mud.

Three days later the ceiling is re-sprayed. 

Late in life, I've decided you need a boat for all but the simplest fishing chores.

Besides, drywallers need work too.

*Edit:* I once worked from the floor above, cut the plywood out run the wiring, fixed the floor.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

I like Lotus Lights for these jobs because there's no can and they're 1/2" thick. No worries about obstructions.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

daveEM said:


> Re-do the ceiling. Before you do that tho...
> 
> A nice channel (a foot comes to mind, - drywall is cheap) across so you can see what's in the joist spaces... tin duct, 4" plumbing pipe, etc.
> 
> ...


 I have a GC who routinely cuts out the floor for wiring and plumbing. I love it. some days the ladder stays on the truck  .


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

Sounds like I better charge accordingly, she wants me to fix all the holes which I don't mind one bit , I do charge however.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

WronGun said:


> Sounds like I better charge accordingly, she wants me to fix all the holes which I don't mind one bit , I do charge however.


Find a good rocker, find out a price from him, and roll the cost into your price.


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## 3DDesign (Oct 25, 2014)

Consider that some of the bays may have duct work or plumbing and you won't be able to fit the can in.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

3DDesign said:


> Consider that some of the bays may have duct work or plumbing and you won't be able to fit the can in.


 The secret weapon...

www.lotusledlights.com


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## nimbus03 (Sep 22, 2012)

Did one last week where I ran pipe and mounted boxes on the back of his house. Three boxes and 15'of 1/2 emt. Drilled a small hole in the back of the bell box. Kinda helped it was ground level and there was a deck above so It wasn't so noticible.


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## Spark Master (Jul 3, 2012)

I'm buying a "new" house, no lights, no fan box in any bedroom ceiling. I already have a demolition guy lined up. Then I'll find a rocker when I'm done.

What this house has is switched split outlets in every bedroom, and I hate them with a vengeance. Why anyone can't take the time to mount a ceiling box is beyond me.


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

it was a 'thing' in the 60s and 70s


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Spark Master said:


> I'm buying a "new" house, no lights, no fan box in any bedroom ceiling. I already have a demolition guy lined up. Then I'll find a rocker when I'm done.
> 
> What this house has is switched split outlets in every bedroom, and I hate them with a vengeance. Why anyone can't take the time to mount a ceiling box is beyond me.



It ain't the sparky's fault. It's the builder's call. They want the absolute *cheapest* price possible that will pass inspection. The less money the house costs, the more money they have for their Avalanche payments.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Spark Master said:


> I'm buying a "new" house, no lights, no fan box in any bedroom ceiling. I already have a demolition guy lined up. Then I'll find a rocker when I'm done.
> 
> What this house has is switched split outlets in every bedroom, and I hate them with a vengeance. Why anyone can't take the time to mount a ceiling box is beyond me.


Full height floor lamps were all the rage way back when.

Today's ceiling fans were not on the market. Period. What had been common before air conditioning had fallen entirely out of favor. It took the energy crisis of the 1970s to cause the ceiling fan to come back into popularity. 

It was at that time that it was found that the common old ceiling boxes were falling out and down with the newly popular fans. The ceiling boxes that did exist were never rated for modern ceiling fans -- just dinky light fixtures. 

( Yes, there were exceptions. You just didn't see such trick boxes in tract home construction. )

[ My Great Uncle flew with Hap Arnold, and built one of the massive gen-sets (bid winner during the Great Depression ) for the Bonneville Power Administration. ( Grand Coulee Dam, IIRC )

Using his EC connections he arranged for a 200# rated junction box and the associated chandelier as a 'wedding present' to my parents... for their first totally custom home. :laughing:

Both were sized and priced for a major ballroom. :thumbup:

As a child, I could never figure out why the massive thing didn't fall down. :laughing:

It must have taken a full day to hang it.

So anything is possible in custom construction. ]

&&&&

BTW, it was a common style to FLIP all switched receptacles upside down from the normal pattern. This was necessary to prevent warranty call-backs. You would not believe the number of occupants complaining about having a dead 'plug.' 

With a flipped receptacle, the problem could be spotted and cured over the phone: "Turn on the wall switch, ma'am."


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

3DDesign said:


> Consider that some of the bays may have duct work or plumbing and you won't be able to fit the can in.


Say it ain't so...........:laughing:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

A Little Short said:


> Say it ain't so...........:laughing:


That's what sawzalls are for.


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

480sparky said:


> That's what sawzalls are for.



Even better, I had a rocker on stand-by as I was fairly certain this would happen. Told the HO there was probably plumbing there but he said "try it anyway"!


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

A Little Short said:


> Even better, I had a rocker on stand-by as I was fairly certain this would happen. Told the HO there was probably plumbing there but he said "try it anyway"!



I mark the center of the proposed hole on the ceiling, then use a 6" long #2 Philips screwdriver to probe through the rock. A ½" hole is a lot easier to patch than a 6½" one.


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## zac (May 11, 2009)

Use a earth magnet to locate the joist's. You can go outside and sometimes see them coming out of the eaves as well (as well as drainage pipes, ducts,etc..). Also handy is a piece of fish tape 10 ' plus long. Bend the end to match the diameter of the can (example 2.5' for a 4' can).
Punch through the drywall at center of proposed can location using a cabinet flat blade screwdriver. Then stick the fish tape with the bent upside down "L" of the fish tape and twirl up and down. This will usually help determine if you can drill or not. 
Oh yeah, go upstairs and see whats above you. Bathrooms can be a doozy!


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Sometimes an inspection camera works. I bought one off the clearance table at Home Creepo for about eighty bucks.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

480sparky said:


> I mark the center of the proposed hole on the ceiling, then use a 6" long #2 Philips screwdriver to probe through the rock. A ½" hole is a lot easier to patch than a 6½" one.


The only practical use for a Phillips driver - poking holes in drywall.


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

99cents said:


> Sometimes an inspection camera works. I bought one off the clearance table at Home Creepo for about eighty bucks.


and that camera will go through a half inch hole too! no more guessing, but it takes some practice to understand what you are seeing


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