# discolored



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Obvious B phase discoloration



48 circuits in this 40 space panel, we're on 05'









I was there to price a lighting swap out for the restaurant, no infrared camera, no laser temp gun, no good camera, nothing, just a cell phone. Plus, I was there at 9 am, it probably needs to be checked during a busy day










But does this look like overheating? 600 amp service, this is one of three panels


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

It sure looks like it to me. But IDK... Were you able to take any amp readings?


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## pjg (Nov 11, 2008)

Definetly has been hot. Further investigation would be needed as to why, but a new panel is in order.

I had one very similar and while looking at the job, the lug began glowing until it was cherry red then I turned off the main and got a nice service upgrade out of it.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> It sure looks like it to me. But IDK... Were you able to take any amp readings?


 
Only about half of the workers had shown up, and they weren't doing much. I think it needs to be checked in mid lunchshift. It just went there to look at lights. Three phase service, this is the only SP panel


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## aarons600rr (Apr 7, 2007)

I didn't see any torque marks but wonder if it is not torqued to spec..?


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Only about half of the workers had shown up, and they weren't doing much. I think it needs to be checked in mid lunchshift. It just went there to look at lights. Three phase service, this is the only SP panel




I agree it needs to be checked with the kitchen it full swing but it might still be nice to know what it is pulling without everyone there. You probably were not a boy scout because you did not go prepared for anything.....:laughing::laughing:


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> I agree it needs to be checked with the kitchen it full swing but it might still be nice to know what it is pulling without everyone there. You probably were not a boy scout because you did not go prepared for anything.....:laughing::laughing:


 

Do you take your service van for estimates? I was in my truck


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

I just changed a main that went bad.. the bus looked just like that.

The main would not open, so I took the cover off to get the breaker info and saw the purple bus..

The HO didn't want to go for a new panel, so I just wire wheeled it the best I could


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Do you take your service van for estimates? I was in my truck



I have a system. I schedule 90% of my estimates before 10am. I try to do 2 to 4 a day that are close to each other then start service calls or whatever else needs my attention. I try to do the south side on monday, wed and friday and the north side on tuesday thursday and saturday. I will do afternoon and evening estimates but I try my best to talk them into morning time. I hate afternoon traffic too.:blink:


You know I was just messing with you right?:001_huh:


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> I have a system. I schedule 90% of my estimates before 10am. I try to do 2 to 4 a day that are close to each other then start service calls or whatever else needs my attention. I try to do the south side on monday, wed and friday and the north side on tuesday thursday and saturday. I will do afternoon and evening estimates but I try my best to talk them into morning time. I hate afternoon traffic too.:blink:
> 
> 
> You know I was just messing with you right?:001_huh:


 
Oh yeah, I know, I just like having a vehicle to run and get parts, give estimates, or even throw a few bags in and run a service call. I usually have my helper meet me in the van.


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

check lug tightness?
24 circuits on a 20 space bus?
feel any of the breakers on the B leg?


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

B4T said:


> I just changed a main that went bad.. the bus looked just like that.
> 
> The main would not open, so I took the cover off to get the breaker info and saw the purple bus..
> 
> The HO didn't want to go for a new panel, so I just wire wheeled it the best I could


At that point, what does it matter? If the customer didn't want it properly fixed, then I would have just left it at that.

When the bus turns purple, Isn't it already compromised?

~Matt


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

BuzzKill said:


> check lug tightness?
> 24 circuits on a 20 space bus?
> feel any of the breakers on the B leg?


I'm working there Sunday, I'll check that lug.



TOOL_5150 said:


> At that point, what does it matter? If the customer didn't want it properly fixed, then I would have just left it at that.
> 
> When the bus turns purple, Isn't it already compromised?
> 
> ~Matt


Compromised, yes. Should it be replaced? yes. Will they do it? probably not






What if i find the panel unbalanced, and fix that by rearranging, would you still replace it? Would the customer being a good friend change your answer?


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

mcclary's electrical said:


> What if i find the panel unbalanced, and fix that by rearranging, would you still replace it? ?


I bet Zog could answer that; this calls for research on high current/temperature effects on aluminum's ability to safely act as a conductor; if unbalanced, and it gets remedied, I might stay with it.


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

TOOL_5150 said:


> At that point, what does it matter? If the customer didn't want it properly fixed, then I would have just left it at that.
> 
> When the bus turns purple, Isn't it already compromised?
> 
> ~Matt


Yes,

I can see the line item on the invoice.
"wire wheel burned connection $75", I think that's the going rate for wire wheeling.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

I'd check that the nut holding that lug on is tight. Might be a little loose creating some heat. Amp probe is a good idea. I know the text book answer is probably to replace it.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

BuzzKill said:


> I bet Zog could answer that; this calls for research on high current/temperature effects on aluminum's ability to safely act as a conductor; if unbalanced, and it gets remedied, I might stay with it.


I like your boots but that is not aluminum


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

That's an older style panel, when that panel was made, the breakers were all black. The breakers installed in it are newer than the panel. Especially the ones with the amp rating stamped in white on the handle. 

Was there a bunch of load added recently? Or maybe breakers replaced? 

I'd look at the bus extensions for positions 3 and 4. This could be part of the cause of heating, but maybe it's just a loose lug. 

The bus is very likely tin-plated copper. 

It'd be interesting to see current readings when it's loaded.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

That particular panel was famous for those lugs being loose. I check every one I'm in.


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## cdnelectrician (Mar 14, 2008)

How is the neutral for circuit 5 holding up? (tandem breaker bottom 3rd from left) lol


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

Shoulda, woulda, coulda, got the AHJ, or the local fire chief to make the call. If the joint burnt over night, guess who they would want to talk to? When it comes to insurance co's, any little thing they can nit pick, they will. And, since you were the last one in that panel. 
I had a service call on a Sunday, HO's lights were a flickering, got to within 2 feet of the SE and could hear the distinct sound of arcing, HO was right there, so I tells him, you have no power until the BI say's so, cause I gotta kill it, now, please stand back. The meter stab was arced, took Edison forever to come unlock the ring (Sunday) Meanwhile HO is frantic, and trying to explain why he needed a new combo panel wasn't fun. Ended up calling the FD to explain to the HO why I couldn't return service, after he wouldn't believe me, or Edison. I hate them kind of situations, but ya gotta do what ya gotta do. And I got a 200A upgrade out of the deal.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Bkessler said:


> Yes,
> 
> I can see the line item on the invoice.
> "wire wheel burned connection $75", I think that's the going rate for wire wheeling.


 
I can't see what good wire wheeling does?




joebanana said:


> Shoulda, woulda, coulda, got the AHJ, or the local fire chief to make the call. If the joint burnt over night, guess who they would want to talk to? When it comes to insurance co's, any little thing they can nit pick, they will. And, since you were the last one in that panel.
> I had a service call on a Sunday, HO's lights were a flickering, got to within 2 feet of the SE and could hear the distinct sound of arcing, HO was right there, so I tells him, you have no power until the BI say's so, cause I gotta kill it, now, please stand back. The meter stab was arced, took Edison forever to come unlock the ring (Sunday) Meanwhile HO is frantic, and trying to explain why he needed a new combo panel wasn't fun. Ended up calling the FD to explain to the HO why I couldn't return service, after he wouldn't believe me, or Edison. I hate them kind of situations, but ya gotta do what ya gotta do. And I got a 200A upgrade out of the deal.


 

I think you bumped your head


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

joebanana said:


> Shoulda, woulda, coulda, got the AHJ, or the local fire chief to make the call. If the joint burnt over night, guess who they would want to talk to? When it comes to insurance co's, any little thing they can nit pick, they will. And, since you were the last one in that panel.


Put your badge away. They need you back at headquarters.


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## mrmike (Dec 10, 2010)

I believe that is a "hotspot" which would be seen with an infared camera, which I would check it with first if you have one. Either case, we always took the connection apart & clean the mating surfaces with scotchbrite, coat it, & re-install. Then we would look at it again with the camera.
It does take the patina finish off but there isn't another option, but changing the buss which we never did for a small discoloration like this.............


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

MDShunk said:


> Put your badge away. They need you back at headquarters.


SIR!, The HO didn't want to wait for a building inspector, said he had a kidney in the freezer, and Edison just unlocked the ring, I pulled the meter, and I was just CYA'n. The boss woulda been pissed if I stuck the meter back in because that would have been a "violation", and, since I'm a "California State Certified Journeyman Electrician", it is now my duty to be vigilent of such issues, and address them accordingly, SIR!


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