# Panel interior doesn't look very safe



## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

The plant manager opened this panel and asked if I thought the interior looked safe.









It seems to me that if the rotary shaft handle worked, that fuse block wouldnt be energized with the door opened. 
The second thing that has me concerned is the 125 amp 200k fuses seem to be right out in the open without any kind of fingerguard. 
The panel came with the screw conveyor and all of it is listed as an assembly. 
I can replace the rotary disconnect shaft but, if it gets broken or destroyed again I think it will expose someone to that ugly fuse setup.

Does anyone have a suggestion for a cover? 
The manager also wants a phase loss monitor and a TVSS all stuffed in this cabinet. 
Do you guys routinely modify these type panels and not have them field labeled?
I'm sure it all will be just fine until someone has an accident.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

Got a pic?


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

I wouldn't want my name on something like that. How much work & cost to rip it out and replace it with something more modern?


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## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

Picture link is broken.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

JRaef said:


> Picture link is broken.


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## JoeSparky (Mar 25, 2010)

Try logging in as NewElec85 and posting the pic.


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

Southeast Power said:


>


Paste the image into your post. Some images won't paste.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Annnd,
It’s sideways.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

Replacing like for like is one thing, I wouldn't be stuffing any new parts in there without a stamp. 

It's amazing what approved shops can get away with, huh?


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

NewElect85 will fix it for you.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

How could you get in trouble swapping finger safe fuseholder for the ones that are there? 

Diagnose them as near end of life and replace them with an equivalent that happens to be finger safe.


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## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

There is no requirement for the fuse holder to be “finger safe”, that’s an IEC thing. You can add it if you like, but it’s not a requirement here per the NEC, UL or NFPA 79 (the standard for “industrial machinery” control panels). 

The disconnect must extent to and interlock with the door, so that you cannot open the door unless the disconnect is open (unless you purposely defeat the interlock with a tool). Also, if following NFPA 79, the disconnect must have a means of operating it when the door is open, *without* needing a tool so that if you DO open the door by defeating the interlock, you (the electrician) still have a means to quickly kill power without having to fumble for a wrench. Disconnect mfrs call these options an “NFPA79 handle”.

I see a contactor, but no overload relay? Is that beige box a VFD being fed by that contactor? If so, bad design, that VFD will die a premature death. But that aside, if that is a VFD, the phase monitor is pointless, the VFD will take care of that on its own. The Surge Protector might be a good idea though.


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## oliquir (Jan 13, 2011)

It is stupid that UL , CSA, etl,... doesnt require finger safe in control panels like that, we all know that it will be open without being shut-off for troubleshooting in the future and there a good chance it won't be by an electrician...


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

If you are worried throw a disco in front of it.


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## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

oliquir said:


> It is stupid that UL , CSA, etl,... doesnt require finger safe in control panels like that, we all know that it will be open without being shut-off for troubleshooting in the future and there a good chance it won't be by an electrician...


 Yes, we know that's going to happen. But are finger safe fuse holders going to save that person? They are ALREADY demonstrating that safety is unimportant to them, there was this BIG STEEL DOOR protecting them from touching anything live, but they decided to defeat the protection. So after that, why are some piece of flimsy plastic going to stop him from sticking a tool where it shouldn't go? Interlock the door, then once someone decides to take their chances, its on them.



Somehow, some way, American industry managed to survive for almost 100 years using electricity before IEC stuff started making its way here, touting "finger safe" devices as if they were the only thing that could save the world from exposure to electrical equipment. I think that long ago, we all learned that "You can't fix stupid!"


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

I would go ahead and change the fuse block due to the rotary disconnect being just above it. I hate that design as the shaft can sometimes get pulled out and drop inside the panel.

With out seeing a complete picture its hard to tell if the vfd is the only item supplied by incoming power. It looks like a contractor is being used as a e-stop which is not the best option and the fuses are probably powering everything in the panel which means they are probably over sized for the drive. 

This doesn't look like a new panel and it was probably built onsite so i would probably claim that it was being updated due to lack of original parts being available then go to town on it.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

I would change anything he was willing to pay for, but not a mm beyond that.


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## Peewee0413 (Oct 18, 2012)

JRaef said:


> There is no requirement for the fuse holder to be “finger safe”, that’s an IEC thing. You can add it if you like, but it’s not a requirement here per the NEC, UL or NFPA 79 (the standard for “industrial machinery” control panels).
> 
> The disconnect must extent to and interlock with the door, so that you cannot open the door unless the disconnect is open (unless you purposely defeat the interlock with a tool). Also, if following NFPA 79, the disconnect must have a means of operating it when the door is open, *without* needing a tool so that if you DO open the door by defeating the interlock, you (the electrician) still have a means to quickly kill power without having to fumble for a wrench. Disconnect mfrs call these options an “NFPA79 handle”.
> 
> I see a contactor, but no overload relay? Is that beige box a VFD being fed by that contactor? If so, bad design, that VFD will die a premature death. But that aside, if that is a VFD, the phase monitor is pointless, the VFD will take care of that on its own. The Surge Protector might be a good idea though.


It's an Automation Direct VFD? I've seen more than a few estop to a contactor for safety on GS drives. I guess that's what they recommend when you call and ask. could be worse I guess

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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

The panel door is all the protection you need. If unqualified persons go poking around in there, maybe they won't do it again. Control cabinets always have exposed stuff, that's why it's in a cabinet. They were generous with space in there, so a TVSS, and PLM shouldn't be a problem. This is in a plant, right? With qualified maintenance personnel, right? Is their a planner, or engineer on site? If you're in question, push it uphill.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

I did locate a 3 pole Class T fuse holder with a cover. 
It appears they used either a 201 to 400 amp or 600amp fuse block in that panel during the OEM build. I have no clue as to the use of 125 amp fuses on a 60 amp incoming circuit. The new fuse blocks will be 200 amp rated and will fit those 125s they have.

They are insisting on a phase loss monitor. Allen Bradley has one for just about $125 including the relay base. Ill have it open that small contactor. Also, the 3 phase TVSS they need is close to a grand. That sucker is going to take up 3 precious spaces in their MDP.

They have been having some voltage sags. I installed a recorder on another disconnect feeding a 125 p compressor that was shutting down due to sag on one of the legs. I set it up to reference the neutral to try and capture it along with phase to phase amperage and voltage to see if the load had anything to do with the sag. It appears to be plant wide.

I seem to be wasting wayy too much time with these people. I am going to let them know I need a day in each panel and about $1,000


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Southeast Power said:


> I did locate a 3 pole Class T fuse holder with a cover.
> It appears they used either a 201 to 400 amp or 600amp fuse block in that panel during the OEM build. I have no clue as to the use of 125 amp fuses on a 60 amp incoming circuit. The new fuse blocks will be 200 amp rated and will fit those 125s they have.
> 
> They are insisting on a phase loss monitor. Allen Bradley has one for just about $125 including the relay base. Ill have it open that small contactor. Also, the 3 phase TVSS they need is close to a grand. That sucker is going to take up 3 precious spaces in their MDP.
> ...


To me this kind of thing is a great project not a waste of time, but if you use flat rate pricing model you use for less head scratching jobs, you're going to take a bath.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

splatz said:


> To me this kind of thing is a great project not a waste of time, but if you use flat rate pricing model you use for less head scratching jobs, you're going to take a bath.


Agreed. It is interesting and the materials are cheap but, there are so many obstacles to getting in an out on these kinds of little projects. One good thing about this customer is that they pay on 10 days as a direct deposit and we are an exclusive vendor.


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## Flyingsod (Jul 11, 2013)

What a world of wimps we are becoming. That setup is perfectly safe for any qualified personnel. Slap a stickerOn it that says qualified personnel only and you’re good to go. Or maybe a sticker that says no idiots


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