# 2 lighting questions



## subelect (Nov 25, 2007)

I know that these are pretty simple questions, but I would like to know what the smart electricians have to say.
1. What type of lights are you installing in unheated garages and buildings for 120 volt porc. fixtures? Do the CFLs stand up thru the winter or are you still installing incandes. bulbs?

2. I have a heck of a time keeping the different types of bulbs straight. Can you look at a light fixture and figure out if it is Halogen, mercury vapor or sodium (without any label on the fixture)? Which bulbs are interchangable: mercury vapor, multi-vapor and halogen? Or are they all exclusive?

Thanks,
Rick


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

1. It depends on climate, unheated in Florida is different than unheated in Maine.
2. You need to go back to school on this one, it is basic knowledge for any electrician.
This site has a lot on good information. http://www.sylvania.com/BusinessProducts/ProductLiteratureDownload/Product+Literature/


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

I always use High Output (HO) florescent lights in unheated spaces.

Those are same lights used in outdoor signs

The ends of HO lamps are black and rectangular


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## Toronto Sparky (Apr 12, 2009)

I have been using cfls here for years in porch lights and in my shed.
Only downside to them is the do take a while to get to full brightness depending on how cold it is out.
Here in Toronto we hit -30 Celsius fairly often and they always work after a minute or so to warm up.

Was just reminded when I went to the sylvania site , that they don't last long if you have them on an electronic motion detector.


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## subelect (Nov 25, 2007)

Thanks for your input. 

Dr. Sparky, yes, I probably do need to go back to school. We never had HID varieties on any of the submarines that I served on. I am pretty sure that I do not know everything about electricity, but I can aspire to be like you.
The reason that I ask the dumb questions is to learn from smart people who are willing to teach. Luckily, this forum is full of such people and run by a good moderator.
Rick


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

subelect said:


> Thanks for your input.
> 
> Dr. Sparky, yes, I probably do need to go back to school. We never had HID varieties on any of the submarines that I served on. I am pretty sure that I do not know everything about electricity, but I can aspire to be like you.
> The reason that I ask the dumb questions is to learn from smart people who are willing to teach. Luckily, this forum is full of such people and run by a good moderator.
> Rick


I am belittling you; I posted the Sylvania reference because it has a lot of great information. When I was an apprentice I worked weekends at Lowe's, when it was not busy I paged through the Sylvania books and learned a lot. There is an old maxim: “It is not what you know it's do you know how to look it up“.


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## SideWorker (Aug 2, 2009)

drsparky said:


> I am belittling you; I posted the Sylvania reference because it has a lot of great information. When I was an apprentice I worked weekends at Lowe's, when it was not busy I paged through the Sylvania books and learned a lot. There is an old maxim: “It is not what you know it's do you know how to look it up“.


I thought it was "It's not who you know, it's who you blow."


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

drsparky said:


> When I was an apprentice I worked weekends at Lowe's,




WOW! When alot of us where apprentices...They did'nt even have Alpha/numeric pagers.(let alone box stores)
Get to the customer,and they told us to call the office.

Just found it funny to see that line (sad). I'm old!!!!


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## scruffy (Aug 7, 2009)

there are ballast that will fire your lights at low temps just have to ask for them when knowing the location as too where there gonna be installed


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## Lighting Retro (Aug 1, 2009)

CFL's will be replaced soon by LED's once the prices come down. Without a 3 hour run time minimum, Flourescent technology is just not meant to last. You will notice that even on their literature for 4' lamps they have a different life expectancy based upon 12 hour avg on cycles. I think it can almost double the lamp life. Plus LED's have no mercury, so they will be better later on. 

As far as HID, it's not fact, but mostly what you'll see: Your High Pressure Sodium usually has a more yellow look to it. Metal Halides are usually more white, and your Mercury Vapor tend to have a "blue" look to it. 

Mercury Vapor info

High Pressure Sodium

High Intensity Discharge (HID)

all three are sometimes referred to as HID lamps. They are all voltage specific usually, and they are usually not interchangeable. They require a specific ballast for that voltage lamp. There a few exceptions, and your supplier could tell you more based upon more specifics. 

In a lot of places, HO or High Output is required in order to operate in the cold. They come with what are sometimes referred to as zero degree ballasts. Most signage has HO lamps since they are exposed to colder temperatures. Not too commonly used for residential around these parts. If you are looking for something simple that plugs into 120V, you might go Halogen or incand. Not exactly energy efficient, but still cheap, runs hot, and pretty darned reliable. 

Hope that was helpful.


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## Toronto Sparky (Apr 12, 2009)

As far as I know they still make a self ballasting Mercury Vapor lamp.
Not sure what the life span is. 
But it will screw into a med. base 120v socket.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> I always use High Output (HO) florescent lights in unheated spaces.


That is basically outdated now, T-8 electronic ballasts will work fine in unheated spaces.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> That is basically outdated now, T-8 electronic ballasts will work fine in unheated spaces.


Bob.. I installed a bunch of T-8 fixtures in a airplane hanger last winter and the light output was about 80% of what they are now


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> Bob.. I installed a bunch of T-8 fixtures in a airplane hanger last winter and the light output was about 80% of what they are now


There is normal lumen depreciation in any non-incandescent light source, but especially HID and fluorescent.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Peter D said:


> There is normal lumen depreciation in any non-incandescent light source, but especially HID and fluorescent.


Not with HO fluorescent light fixtures.. they are always the same brightness


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> Not with HO fluorescent light fixtures.. they are always the same brightness


ALL fluorescent lamps will depreciate in light output over time...all of them.


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## Lighting Retro (Aug 1, 2009)

Peter D said:


> ALL fluorescent lamps will depreciate in light output over time...all of them.


This is true. According to all published charts, your 80% figure appears to be high. Fluorescent technology maintains around 90-95% of their lumens of the life of the product. That is fantastic compared to HID which can get down in the 60% range. Still, 80% is low. 

However, as we all know, if the customer says so, it must be true. :thumbsup:

If you need documentation, I can provide.


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## Lighting Retro (Aug 1, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> That is basically outdated now, T-8 electronic ballasts will work fine in unheated spaces.


In most cases this is true, but in very cold climates, they do not spec T8. It has to be T5 HO. Even HLO T8 ballasts won't cut it. The cold is definitely an issue. I'm had to pull some T8 freezer fixtures out of 20 below that didn't work so hot. If the fixture is built properly to handle it, it might be ok, but typically it is overkill on fixture cost vs. just going T5.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Peter D said:


> ALL fluorescent lamps will depreciate in light output over time...all of them.


*Over time..* I agree.. but right out of the box in cold weather HO fixtures are the best out there IMO


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Lighting Retro said:


> but in very cold climates, they do not spec T8. It has to be T5 HO.



I am pretty sure he was talking about T-12 HOs and I will stand by my statement that they are now outdated.


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## Lighting Retro (Aug 1, 2009)

Absolutely. No more T12 HO's.


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