# Knocked down a few pegs, I was, today!!!!



## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

You all know I'm all "high and mighty" about how I'm awesome. Well, today, was hell of a day!!!

I am contracted to do this job. Basically, I'm working for Caterpillar, and I'm asked to change out some T12s, some 8' fixtures, to new T8s.

First, one of the guys at this specialized shop asked me what I was going to do with the T12s. I am NOT a liar, so I told him I was going to dumpster them. Then he tells me he's the like, the environmental liason or whatever. So he spent an hour with me telling me what his responsibilities are. For me, as REAL environmentalist, it's not worth trying to take mercury out of flourescents (in my coal-burning province that is), I did well; I listened to what he had to say, I understood his position, I agreed with him and what I had to do, and went away.

The next day (TODAY!!!), I came back (because I didn't have scaffolding to finish the job in 1 day) in 1 room and I apologized to the guy. Then, as I was setting up the scaffolding, I forgot the PINS!! Arg!!!

I drive back to the shop (1 hr) and get the pins, and started setting up. I reach for one of the braces.... I forgot the braces!!! GRRR!!! I had a small job to do there, but basically I told the site guys not to tell my big boss what an IDIOT I am to forget so much, and rewrote my little brain that it can't be done with scaffolding and will need a 12' extension ladder.

But I worked all day today, and did about an hour's worth of work.

On the other hand, I did resolve an issue with how they handle waste. Which was probably more important than the job itself. Making one of the customer's workers happy and beliving in me.

And I decided I need more sleep in my life.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

kaboler said:


> And I decided I need more sleep in my life.


That being said, remember your ABC's...
Always Be Cool :thumbsup:


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

You should be trained in proper lamp disposal.


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## ejmatt (Apr 3, 2011)

1. How coincidental that there is a topic relating to changing T12's to T8's in general discussions, made just hours before you make this thread.

2. Why is a first year appy like yourself always working on site alone, hours away from the workshop?

3. What kind of ****** would think to use scaffolding, forget pins, drive back and get them, forget braces, drive back and get them, and then finally think "oh I might just use my ladder". Don't you need a scaffolding ticket/license to set it up legally (which you obviously wouldn't have? I have never seen a sparkie set up his own scaffolding let alone to change a light, its either a ladder or scizzor-lift.

4. Why would a big mining/industry oriented company like Caterpillar have a maintenence contract with you when the shop is an hour drive away? surely they would give it to some closer for quicker response/service


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## Shorty Circuit (Jun 26, 2010)

kaboler said:


> You all know I'm all "high and mighty" about how I'm awesome. Well, today, was hell of a day!!!
> 
> I am contracted to do this job. Basically, I'm working for Caterpillar, and I'm asked to change out some T12s, some 8' fixtures, to new T8s.
> 
> ...


So if I understand you right, you're an electrician who's dangerous changing a light bulb and is full of himself anyway. 

Hey, try to remember that the time to sleep is not right in the middle of the job...especially if you are doing hot work.  Or while driving a car. :laughing:


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

kaboler said:


> You all know I'm all "high and mighty" about how I'm awesome. Well, today, was hell of a day!!!
> 
> I am contracted to do this job. Basically, I'm working for Caterpillar, and I'm asked to change out some T12s, some 8' fixtures, to new T8s.
> 
> ...



:sleep1::sleep1::sleep1::sleep1::sleep1::sleep1:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

ejmatt said:


> 4. Why would a big mining/industry oriented company like Caterpillar have a maintenence contract with you when the shop is an hour drive away? surely they would give it to some closer for quicker response/service


 
Cat has many smaller service/sales shops all over MAYBE he was working at those?

Other than that your post is SPOT ON.


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

ejmatt said:


> 1. How coincidental that there is a topic relating to changing T12's to T8's in general discussions, made just hours before you make this thread.


Coincidence. I don't see what you're saying here.



> 2. Why is a first year appy like yourself always working on site alone, hours away from the workshop?


Define "direct supervision". I'm in contact with my journeymen, but I rarely need help. I've been trained to do electrical work. I can run BX and EMT and plan what the end result will look like. How many hours of training do you think I need before I can plan a BX run alone? 



> 3. What kind of ****** would think to use scaffolding, forget pins, drive back and get them, forget braces, drive back and get them, and then finally think "oh I might just use my ladder". Don't you need a scaffolding ticket/license to set it up legally (which you obviously wouldn't have? I have never seen a sparkie set up his own scaffolding let alone to change a light, its either a ladder or scizzor-lift.


Didn't drive back to get the braces. Maybe your area needs specialized people to set up scaffold, but not around here.

Don't call me a ******.



> 4. Why would a big mining/industry oriented company like Caterpillar have a maintenence contract with you when the shop is an hour drive away? surely they would give it to some closer for quicker response/service


They have it with my boss, and it was not a priority job. It's an hour drive, not an hour there and an hour back.

And they maybe can get cheaper/quicker service, but not better and more experienced!!!


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

kaboler said:


> Coincidence. I don't see what you're saying here.
> 
> 
> Define "direct supervision". I'm in contact with my journeymen, but I rarely need help. I've been trained to do electrical work. I can run BX and EMT and plan what the end result will look like. How many hours of training do you think I need before I can plan a BX run alone?
> ...


 

If you had a brain , you'd be dangerous.


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

*"Knocked down a few pegs, I was, today!!!!"

*Why do you sound like Yoda?


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

whatever


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## walkerj (May 13, 2007)

You are an idiot, JMSHO.

Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

walkerj said:


> You are an idiot, JMSHO.


Whatever!


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

kaboler said:


> Whatever!


 

I know you are, but what am I?


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## electricalperson (Jan 11, 2008)

every thread started by him causes a lot of negative comments, i think this guy is a troll and is screwing with us. if all this is true you made your company look terrible by not thinking. write things down if you cant remember the essentials.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

And all those other stupid JW's and apprentices are laughing their tushies off at you.

Does you good to realize you are not the hot dog you thought you were, just another slug.

Learn from this and you might be a good JW some day, blame others and whine and you will never be the electrician you think you are.


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

I posted this because I thought you guys might like to know that I accept criticism, know when I've failed and made mistakes, and hopefully learn from mistakes.

Maybe people are confusing my attitude (which people hate) with what I actually do on the field (which is good work).

I don't cherish how people view me here. I get bored, sometimes I post. I mostly silently read, hopefully pick up a few things here and there, but that's about it.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

kaboler said:


> I posted this because I thought you guys might like to know that I accept criticism, know when I've failed and made mistakes, and hopefully learn from mistakes.
> 
> Maybe people are confusing my attitude (which people hate) with what I actually do on the field (which is good work).
> 
> I don't cherish how people view me here. I get bored, sometimes I post. I mostly silently read, hopefully pick up a few things here and there, but that's about it.


Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding. Proverbs 17:28


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## Englishsparky (Nov 6, 2010)

Kaboler, you may be 37, if you are you got into the trade late, you shouldn't think your gods gift because it will bite you on the arse, and hard as well.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Kabob,

You list yourself as a 1st year electrician.

Are you a 1st year apprentice?

A 1st year electrician?

or a long time troll?

Just curious?


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

I have been an electrician for about a year now, and I have not been to school yet.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

kaboler said:


> *I have been an* electrician *for about a year now, and I have not been to school yet.*


Here that would mean you are not even an apprentice, you would be a 'helper' which is pretty much another word for dolt or laborer.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

kaboler said:


> I have been an electrician for about a year now, and I have not been to school yet.


Interesting, very interesting.

What do you have that makes you an electrician? A city/state journeyman's card? A union certification? .... what?


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

hardworkingstiff said:


> Interesting, very interesting.
> 
> What do you have that makes you an electrician? A city/state journeyman's card? A union certification? .... what?


 A two hour course at Orange???? :whistling2::laughing::laughing:


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## AFOREMA1 (Nov 23, 2009)

kaboler said:


> I have been an electrician for about a year now, and I have not been to school yet.


No your not an electrician, hello not even an apprentice yet. You should not be working alone and you most certainly know less than the arrogant posts claim you do.

And you claim you silently read and only occasionally post, but you already have over 410 posts in 6 months as a member. :no:
Hell you post all the time. I've worked in Canada and they seemed to be pretty tough on the trades . So how is it you with no license or real experience can work alone so much, not know how to dispose of lights properly, it just seems like crap to me.:thumbup:


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Give the guy a break, seems like many here are fortunate sons who think their sht don't stink. Maybe i'm a 40 yr old adolescent, still young at heart and adventure, I hear the same stuff from certain posters here. If you're really that insecure that you need to make yourself feel better yourself by thinking your'e better than others than you got issues, This trade is a living and nothing more, after my truck gets parked the trade is a joke to me. The NEC is for entertainment purposes . I could careless if anyone buries open splices, fuses 14 wire on a 30 OPD, installs standard outlets in a shower. Too many idiots in America these days.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Shockdoc said:


> Give the guy a break, seems like many here are fortunate sons who think their sht don't stink. Maybe i'm a 40 yr old adolescent, still young at heart and adventure, I hear the same stuff from certain posters here. If you're really that insecure that you need to make yourself feel better yourself by thinking your'e better than others than you got issues, This trade is a living and nothing more, after my truck gets parked the trade is a joke to me. The NEC is for entertainment purposes . I could careless if anyone buries open splices, fuses 14 wire on a 30 OPD, installs standard outlets in a shower. Too many idiots in America these days.


But who gives a damn what you think? :laughing:

You have done nothing but go out of your way to be on the outside 'enemy of the state' and all that crap. You are just way to cool for me.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

BBQ said:


> But who gives a damn what you think? :laughing:
> 
> You have done nothing but go out of your way to be on the outside 'enemy of the state' and all that crap. You are just way to cool for me.


I got my beliefs and traits just like you got yours, problem is you believe yours is the only right one and no others are acceptable so you need to knock those you don't believe in. I'm not afraid to say i hate this government so what's wrong with that. I'll reply after I return from dinner. As I read before today, to every man his own.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

Shockdoc said:


> ... The NEC is for entertainment purposes . I could careless if anyone buries open splices, fuses 14 wire on a 30 OPD,....


 WOW!!! 

Are you serious?


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## Shorty Circuit (Jun 26, 2010)

Shockdoc said:


> The NEC is for entertainment purposes . I could careless if anyone buries open splices, fuses 14 wire on a 30 OPD, installs standard outlets in a shower. Too many idiots in America these days.


Even so, it's still illegal to kill them off by electrocuting them or starting house fires with your faulty electrical work. Besides, how do you know your ticking time bombs won't blow up on someone who isn't...like your own mother?


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

Kaboler either works for one insane company and thinks he really knows what he's doing or he's a troll. I'm voting troll. A one year apprentice is barely qualified to work by themselves during the day let alone run a van.


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

nitro71 said:


> Kaboler either works for one insane company and thinks he really knows what he's doing or he's a troll. I'm voting troll. A one year apprentice is barely qualified to work by themselves during the day let alone run a van.


 Maybe he should take Josues avatar: I Know Nothing!

Sorry Josue!

He has been asked many times, if he is an apprentice or whatever. 

He does not answer that question. :blink:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

oldtimer said:


> Maybe he should take Josues avatar: I Know Nothing!
> 
> Sorry Josue!
> 
> ...


That is because he does nit know the answer himself..:blink:


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

kaboler said:


> You all know I'm all "high and mighty" about how I'm awesome. Well, today, was hell of a day!!!
> 
> I am contracted to do this job. Basically, I'm working for Caterpillar, and I'm asked to change out some T12s, some 8' fixtures, to new T8s.
> 
> ...


Every one makes mistakes...why would you tell us? Most of what we do is kind of a learning experience for ourselves. You learned...and you earned, that is what counts. Don't feel badly.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Shorty Circuit said:


> Even so, it's still illegal to kill them off by electrocuting them or starting house fires with your faulty electrical work. Besides, how do you know your ticking time bombs won't blow up on someone who isn't...like your own mother?


You should have been a government attorney, quote the whole sentence, "after i park my truck". Let me break it down for you slowly so you can understand, once my day and job is done I can careless what other people do, my work is either up to current or past codes.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

hardworkingstiff said:


> WOW!!!
> 
> Are you serious?


If it's not on my watch , it's not my problem. I know a host of DIY homeowners and HI guys who do their own work. some even run zipcord. As long as it has nothing to do with my business and name, God bless them, I'm not the kind to preach the gospel of the NEC to others as i myself do not believe it to be whole and true. However, on my jobs I have to follow it to a prudent extent, sometimes having to let a few things slide.


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## Shorty Circuit (Jun 26, 2010)

Shockdoc said:


> You should have been a government attorney, quote the whole sentence, "after i park my truck". Let me break it down for you slowly so you can understand, once my day and job is done I can careless what other people do, my work is either up to current or past codes.


Hammurabi's code may be chiseled in stone but it is not grandfathered for your....ahem.....work.:no: I know you couldn't care-less. That's why.....you're off my bidders list too :gun_bandana:


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Shorty Circuit said:


> Hammurabi's code may be chiseled in stone but it is not grandfathered for your....ahem.....work.:no: I know you couldn't care-less. That's why.....you're off my bidders list too :gun_bandana:


If memory serves me right, you posted on another thread that three wire feeds are dangerous. I'm old school, and have probably been doing electrical work while you were still in diapers.


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## Jmcstevenson (Sep 11, 2010)

I am from the same city and province as Kaboler. While I do not know him personally, I can kinda believe some of what he says. I generally work alone as a first year apprentice commercial electrician; there is a real boom going on here, driven by oil, and it's hard to get enough tradespeople. Non-trades people here would call him a 'first year electrician' but tradespeople and most of you would call him a 'first year apprentice electrician'.

And yes we are normally hard on tradespeople. Once they get caught doing something dumb anyways. :jester:


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

My bluebook from the Apprenticeship Board says I'm a first year; I'm doing first year work.

Oh lookie here, from the:

Government of Alberta: Apprentice Identification (Apprentice and Industry Training)

Apprentice's Name
Kaboler, Kaboler kaboler
Whose signature appears on the back is indentured in the
Trade of
Electrician
Identification Number
666666666
Contract Registration Date
11/29/2010

Note: This Card identifies you as a registered apprentice. Carry this card with you and be prepared to produce it upon Request.

WINNING!


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## The_Modifier (Oct 24, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Here that would mean you are not even an apprentice, you would be a 'helper' which is pretty much another word for dolt or laborer.


WRONG!!!!






kaboler said:


> My bluebook from the Apprenticeship Board says I'm a first year; I'm doing first year work.
> 
> Oh lookie here, from the:
> 
> ...


It means that you're a flipping APPRENTICE, not a QUALIFIED electrician! If you where an actual electrician for the past year, you would even have a red seal number along with your 309A LICENCE number.



If you would like it explained more to you, lmk. I would be happy to clear it up for you to avoid confusion in the future. I'm sure you mean well, but read the contract part of your blue book. It's not a licence friend, it's a contract between you and the province of Alberta to allow you to work through an apprenticeship as an indentured apprentice, under the supervision and guidance of a journeyman- that is your RIGHT to have that with the contract.


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## AFOREMA1 (Nov 23, 2009)

kaboler said:


> My bluebook from the Apprenticeship Board says I'm a first year; I'm doing first year work.
> 
> Oh lookie here, from the:
> 
> ...


How are you a year in, as you said, and not had a single training class?
Here our apprentices, well in any trade really, must be actively enrolled in a training program and receiving courses until schooling is completed to remain an apprentice.


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## Shorty Circuit (Jun 26, 2010)

Shockdoc said:


> If memory serves me right, you posted on another thread that three wire feeds are dangerous. I'm old school, and have probably been doing electrical work while you were still in diapers.


If you are going to quote me, at least get it right. I said that multiwire branch circuits are dangerous because if the neutral opens up, the voltage will divide as the phase to phase voltage across a series voltage divider depending on the relative impedences of the loads that are connected between them. That's not an opinion, it's a fact. Why not tempt fate and try it for yourself in your own house if you don't believe it. I wouldn 't tell the insurance company it was deliberate though when you put your claim in if I were you.

I also said I haven't specified MWBCs even for lighting loads for over 25 years because the harmonics of SMPSs in electronic ballasts can put the neutral where they splice to the home run well above ground potential and electricians were complaining about getting hit on them at 277V. 

Evidently NEC has caught up to me. Where MWBCs are installed you now must install a CB with a common handle that shuts all three phases simultaneously. 

Neutrals can also burn up from overload due to harmonics which don't cancel out of phase on them the way the fundimental at 60 hz does. That's why we have super neutrals and harmonic rated transformers to deal with high crest factor loads available. 

But now that you mention it, I've got clients with buildings with their entire main distribution consisting of fused switchboards. Care to guess what happens to a three phase motor if a fuse on one phase blows and the other two don't? One more reason OLs must be installed for all three phase motors.

BTW, did you say you're an electrician? Funny, somehow you don't seem cut out for that kind of work.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Shorty Circuit said:


> If you are going to quote me, at least get it right. I said that multiwire branch circuits are dangerous because if the neutral opens up, the voltage will divide as the phase to phase voltage across a series voltage divider depending on the relative impedences of the loads that are connected between them. That's not an opinion, it's a fact. Why not tempt fate and try it for yourself in your own house if you don't believe it. I wouldn 't tell the insurance company it was deliberate though when you put your claim in if I were you.
> 
> I also said I haven't specified MWBCs even for lighting loads for over 25 years because the harmonics of SMPSs in electronic ballasts can put the neutral where they splice to the home run well above ground potential and electricians were complaining about getting hit on them at 277V.
> 
> ...


I can run circles around you. The main reason I see a neutral burn out from is a poor connection. I'm not an overeducated shthead so I won't bombard you with multiple paragraphs. In fact, i wish you would have installed breaker ties across your reply so i could shut you down in on throw.


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## Shorty Circuit (Jun 26, 2010)

Shockdoc said:


> I'm not an overeducated sh


Well I'll agree with the first part, you're definitely not overeducated.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Shorty Circuit said:


> If you are going to quote me, at least get it right. I said that multi wire branch circuits are dangerous because if the neutral opens up, the voltage will divide as the phase to phase voltage across a series voltage divider depending on the relative impedances of the loads that are connected between them. That's not an opinion, it's a fact. Why not tempt fate and try it for yourself in your own house if you don't believe it. I wouldn't tell the insurance company it was deliberate though when you put your claim in if I were you.
> 
> .


Very nice explanation. BUT you do realize every feeder is a multi-wire circuit. If electricians cannot get a simple branch circuit right, HOW TO HECK are they suppose to get a feeder installed and terminated correctly?

When installed by a professional, there is NO CONCERN, when installed and serviced by anything less that a professional electrician, problems do arise. Every these problems are few and far between in my expierence.


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## Shorty Circuit (Jun 26, 2010)

brian john said:


> Very nice explanation. BUT you do realize every feeder is a multi-wire circuit. If electricians cannot get a simple branch circuit right, HOW TO HECK are they suppose to get a feeder installed and terminated correctly?
> 
> When installed by a professional, there is NO CONCERN, when installed and serviced by anything less that a professional electrician, problems do arise. Every these problems are few and far between in my expierence.


Then you haven't been around long enough. I've seen more than one termination that was probably perfectly fine when it was installed but burned up because there was no PM to retorque it and over time vibrations loosened it up. (yes it was copper.) You know the rest.

BTW, a single phase circuit with one hot phase and one neutral is not a MWBC. In the (very) old days, many and probably most private homes were only 120 volts. My parents had to upgrade their service entrance to 120/240 the first time we needed to install a large AC unit. Their house was built around 1950.


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

kaboler said:


> I have been an electrician for about a year now, and I have not been to school yet.


Let's rephrase you have been an electrician apprentice for a year. And you will be that for the next 4yrs. God speed to you!! LMFAO

Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


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## Shorty Circuit (Jun 26, 2010)

Shockdoc, sorry I can't stay around and "edumicate" you betterer. :hammer:
:smartass: I've got to leave for work soon.

You've inspired me. I think I'll spend the whole day calculating crest factors and sizing neutrals. 

I think if I lived in New York State, I'd be bothered by the way my tax money was being wasted. I'd take your postings to Albany and show them to the legislature's committee on education. I think it's time for an overhaul.

BTW, what's that red stuff on your logo at the bottom of those hammers, blood? Try to remember to keep your thumb out of the way. The idea is to hammer the nail with the head on it, not the one at the end of your finger. :laughing:


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## randas (Dec 14, 2008)

Guys settle down. If I recall correctly the fool beating his chest doesn't even understand ohms law, so take what he says for what its worth :laughing:


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Shorty Circuit said:


> Shockdoc, sorry I can't stay around and "edumicate" you betterer. :hammer:
> :smartass: I've got to leave for work soon.
> 
> You've inspired me. I think I'll spend the whole day calculating crest factors and sizing neutrals.
> ...


You would have been wasting your time, I wake up much earlier and leave alot earlier so i've probably been there first. And if you don't know the marching hammers your probably into classic music or birthday falls out post 1985. And I do agree with you on the NYS waste, but one can't do much in this state, it's a lost cause.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)




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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Shorty Circuit said:


> Then you haven't been around long enough. I've seen more than one termination that was probably perfectly fine when it was installed but burned up because there was no PM to retorque it and over time vibrations loosened it up. (yes it was copper.) You know the rest.


My firm specializes in maintenance and testing with a primary emphasis on IR. I have been involved with IR 27 years and cannot think on one instance where this happened. Intentionally by a buffon yes. At a meter yes.

You re-torque on youe PM's?

I bet you for every MWBC with an issue you dream of there are 20 single phase residential meters with issues.



> BTW, a single phase circuit with one hot phase and one neutral is not a MWBC.


 REALLY Who Knew? I am glad you decided to join the forum.



> In the (very) old days, many and probably most private homes were only 120 volts. My parents had to upgrade their service entrance to 120/240 the first time we needed to install a large AC unit. Their house was built around 1950.


I have been around long enough to have changed many a single phase 120 VAC service to 240/120 single phase. Also changed 30 amp single phase 120 VAC services from houses built in the 1800 hundreds.

Your opinions are your opinions and as a personal preference you are free to stick with them. But you never addressed multi-wire feeders they are rampant in our profession.


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