# PRICING sq. ft. vs. per opening



## RePhase277

trickyricky said:


> What is the going rate per sq. ft. for wiring a house? Also, how much if you charge per opening,(device,box, rec, switch).Which is better to use?


I do both. 19.99 for the first 500 sq. ft, then 700 for each additional sq. ft. And 137.50 per opening...


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## 480sparky

Square foot pricing _just doesn't work_ unless you're doing cookie-cutter tracts that are all roughly the same size.

A 200a service will cost you the same whether the house is 1,000 ft” or 4,000 ft².

If you take a 2,000 ft² home, and figure your labor, material, and other costs, and divide it by 2000, you'll have a ft” price for a 2000 ft² home.

If you use that same ft² price for a 1200 ft² home, you'll lose your shirt. Use the same ft² price for a 4000 ft² home, and you'll price yourself out of contention.


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## seo

480sparky do you add a fixture and fan allowance?


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## MDShunk

trickyricky said:


> What is the going rate per sq. ft. for wiring a house? Also, how much if you charge per opening,(device,box, rec, switch).Which is better to use?


My advice is to always do a takeoff. This square foot and per hole stuff just doesn't work unless you've done a bunch that were so similar to the plan under review that you have numbers to look back on.

Don't worry about "the going rate". I call it "the going out of business rate". Sorta like following Lemmings over a cliff, it seems to me. Figure your real costs of doing business.


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## seo

Good advice Mark. Find your bottom line then add your mark up.


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## MF Dagger

480 is that response just saved on your computer? I swear I've seen it before. Ha. Like a canned forum response


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## waco

I highly recommend working up a price based on actual material and time. You canb present it as a not to exceed or as a cost plus based on actual material costs and time versus the estimate quoted.

I have used $24 an opening, but I've never been happy with the outcome. Plus, material costs are changing so much, such averages are not any good beyond a few weeks.


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## ralph

Sorry Sparky, but I think your wrong.
Ive done it both ways, and if if have good parmeters set up on a sq ft bid, you can do it. 
Sq ft is just a base price for me though, I have allowances for other things, such as 14 foot ceilings, or services needing SER cable withany kind of distance. Just naming a couple.


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## Bkessler

I like square foot pricing as well but I always cross reference it with a per opening price. And some houses are a lower square foot price because there easier and have less opening. And some are higher for other various reasons. But you can't have a blanket price for everything. Thats just stupid.


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## 480sparky

ralph said:


> Sorry Sparky, but I think your wrong.
> Ive done it both ways, and if if have good parmeters set up on a sq ft bid, you can do it.
> Sq ft is just a base price for me though, I have allowances for other things, such as 14 foot ceilings, or services needing SER cable withany kind of distance. Just naming a couple.


Yes, you can do ft² pricing for the Code minimum, then add all the above-and-beyond stuff. But to simply say "I charge $x per square foot" will make you go under so fast it will make you dizzy. It's just that there's too much well-above-Code-minimum in most houses.



Bkessler said:


> I like square foot pricing as well but I always cross reference it with a per opening price. And some houses are a lower square foot price because there easier and have less opening. And some are higher for other various reasons. But you can't have a blanket price for everything. Thats just stupid.


I do it the opposite way. I price per item, then divide by the square foot as a check.


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## MDShunk

In fairness, if you're wiring code minimum houses for builders of mostly code minimum type dwellings, you might be able to develop a reasonable square foot price. My customer list happens to have such diverse tastes, that would be a nightmare.


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## Bkessler

Also throw in I have wired hundreads of houses but only four or five since I started my company......I have a lot to learn, amigo's.


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## jwelectric

trickyricky said:


> What is the going rate per sq. ft. for wiring a house? Also, how much if you charge per opening,(device,box, rec, switch).Which is better to use?


 
I see that no one has answered your questions yet.


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## ralph

I gueess we are in agreement. You must take the other factors into consideration. 
It works very well if you have less than 5 minutes to work on plans.


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## ralph

good point. I was using 5 a sq ft. , service would be extra,no cans and a few other items, but now ive backed down do to the pricing presure from other ec's. About 4.65 now


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## waco

MDShunk said:


> In fairness, if you're wiring code minimum houses for builders of mostly code minimum type dwellings, you might be able to develop a reasonable square foot price. My customer list happens to have such diverse tastes, that would be a nightmare.


I agree, but not many of us have a shot at big developments at this time.

By the way, wearing pajamas in the daytime is waaaay over rated!


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## piette

jwelectric said:


> I see that no one has answered your questions yet.


Its been answered the best way possible several times now, figure out his OWN cost to wire a home. Nobody here can figure out his cost without knowing how long it takes him, or what material he uses or methods to get to the end result. Unless you are specifically based in Atlanta, your costs will be of no use whatsoever to him. I am in Wisconsin, what I charge to do a home will not be close to what contractors in Atlanta charge.

Everytime one of these threads comes up, people state what their rates are, and they are always way, way higher than mine, which just proves you have to figure out YOUR OWN costs. Nobody else here can do it for him.

Jeff


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## 480sparky

waco said:


> I agree, but not many of us have a shot at big developments at this time.
> 
> By the way, wearing pajamas in the daytime is waaaay over rated!


 
Then again, how many cookie-cutter tracts are burning up land these days?


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## Mountain Electrician

ralph said:


> good point. I was using 5 a sq ft. , service would be extra,no cans and a few other items, but now ive backed down do to the pricing presure from other ec's. About 4.65 now


I bid by the opening, but like many others use sq.ft. just to see when I'm done. Average 2 to 2.5K sq.ft. "camp" comes out around that 4.65 mark here.


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## robnj772

All the guys around here that were using sq ft or per opening prices were doing ok until the volume went away,now they are bankrupt or close to it.

Cookie cutters are the only ones who make out using prices like that.

Like 480 said how many tracts are going up these days.

When will electrical contractors start working for what we deserve instead of 10 bucks less then what we think the other guys are charging?


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## heel600

jwelectric said:


> I see that no one has answered your questions yet.


I'll bite....

New construction, I get $30 per rec, light, switch. $50 for a ceiling fan, smoke, recessed light, or 4 way switch. $200 for a range, $250 for a furnace and AC. 

If there's something weird, like sloped cans, chandelier with tons of crystal, or the like, then that's different.

$700 for a 200 amp underground. (no arc faults!!!!)

Last 2 houses I did got paid over $9000. Got 65% for the rough. that's around $6000. Materials were just over $1200. Took 4 days (Very cold and slow going). That's still over $1000 a day for me and a helper.

Finish should take 2 days, and very little material (say $400 for breakers, siding blocks, devices, smokes)

Some people don't know how I can make money doing it that cheap.

I spent 5 years wiring new houses (apprenticeship). Any yes I do nice work. Circuits are not overloaded. Wiring is neat. I run 14-3 to most lights, and to all ceiling and exhaust fans, for future use. Wires are run straight and neat.

If you can be efficient, you can be cheap and still make good money.

If you're unorganized, leave too much for 'later', or have to make trip after trip, you'll lose money.


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## user4818

480sparky said:


> Then again, how many cookie-cutter tracts are burning up land these days?


Not many, and the ones that are going on are being done at rock bottom prices.


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## ralph

I get 75 for a Juno IC 22 ( I buy them for under 7 bucks, and the trim is only a couple bucks ), 100 per pf rough in, 5 dollars a foot for a range, and any specialty homeruns like a jacuzzi, I try to keep at 150.

Some people around savannah are wiring for 2 dollars a sq ft . Im pretty sure that includes nothing though. ( im not even sure if that includes wire ? ):jester:


heel600 said:


> I'll bite....
> 
> New construction, I get $30 per rec, light, switch. $50 for a ceiling fan, smoke, recessed light, or 4 way switch. $200 for a range, $250 for a furnace and AC.
> 
> If there's something weird, like sloped cans, chandelier with tons of crystal, or the like, then that's different.
> 
> $700 for a 200 amp underground. (no arc faults!!!!)
> 
> Last 2 houses I did got paid over $9000. Got 65% for the rough. that's around $6000. Materials were just over $1200. Took 4 days (Very cold and slow going). That's still over $1000 a day for me and a helper.
> 
> Finish should take 2 days, and very little material (say $400 for breakers, siding blocks, devices, smokes)
> 
> Some people don't know how I can make money doing it that cheap.
> 
> I spent 5 years wiring new houses (apprenticeship). Any yes I do nice work. Circuits are not overloaded. Wiring is neat. I run 14-3 to most lights, and to all ceiling and exhaust fans, for future use. Wires are run straight and neat.
> 
> If you can be efficient, you can be cheap and still make good money.
> 
> If you're unorganized, leave too much for 'later', or have to make trip after trip, you'll lose money.


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## robnj772

heel600 said:


> I'll bite....
> 
> New construction, I get $30 per rec, light, switch. $50 for a ceiling fan, smoke, recessed light, or 4 way switch. $200 for a range, $250 for a furnace and AC.
> 
> If there's something weird, like sloped cans, chandelier with tons of crystal, or the like, then that's different.
> 
> $700 for a 200 amp underground. (no arc faults!!!!)
> 
> Last 2 houses I did got paid over $9000. Got 65% for the rough. that's around $6000. Materials were just over $1200. Took 4 days (Very cold and slow going). That's still over $1000 a day for me and a helper.
> 
> Finish should take 2 days, and very little material (say $400 for breakers, siding blocks, devices, smokes)
> 
> Some people don't know how I can make money doing it that cheap.
> 
> I spent 5 years wiring new houses (apprenticeship). Any yes I do nice work. Circuits are not overloaded. Wiring is neat. I run 14-3 to most lights, and to all ceiling and exhaust fans, for future use. Wires are run straight and neat.
> 
> If you can be efficient, you can be cheap and still make good money.
> 
> If you're unorganized, leave too much for 'later', or have to make trip after trip, you'll lose money.


No offense but

Why the hell would you want to work that cheap??????????????? :wallbash:

Prices like that just hurt every EC out there trying to make money.We are from the same state and I used to work in your town,I wouldn't leave my house for prices like that


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## trickyricky

*thanks good information*

:thumbsup:


heel600 said:


> I'll bite....
> THANKS You gave a lot of good and useful information. Your prices look right and fair.:thumbup:
> New construction, I get $30 per rec, light, switch. $50 for a ceiling fan, smoke, recessed light, or 4 way switch. $200 for a range, $250 for a furnace and AC.
> 
> If there's something weird, like sloped cans, chandelier with tons of crystal, or the like, then that's different.
> 
> $700 for a 200 amp underground. (no arc faults!!!!)
> 
> Last 2 houses I did got paid over $9000. Got 65% for the rough. that's around $6000. Materials were just over $1200. Took 4 days (Very cold and slow going). That's still over $1000 a day for me and a helper.
> 
> Finish should take 2 days, and very little material (say $400 for breakers, siding blocks, devices, smokes)
> 
> Some people don't know how I can make money doing it that cheap.
> 
> I spent 5 years wiring new houses (apprenticeship). Any yes I do nice work. Circuits are not overloaded. Wiring is neat. I run 14-3 to most lights, and to all ceiling and exhaust fans, for future use. Wires are run straight and neat.
> 
> If you can be efficient, you can be cheap and still make good money.
> 
> If you're unorganized, leave too much for 'later', or have to make trip after trip, you'll lose money.


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## piette

robnj772 said:


> No offense but
> 
> Why the hell would you want to work that cheap??????????????? :wallbash:
> 
> Prices like that just hurt every EC out there trying to make money.We are from the same state and I used to work in your town,I wouldn't leave my house for prices like that


Considering your from the same area, I can understand your point. However where I am in Wisconsin, those prices are right in line with most of us around here. I know some have raised there prices in the last year or two now, but I make good money working for pretty much the same prices he put up.

Jeff


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## trickyricky

Thanks :thumbsup:Robnj772 :thumbup:You gave alot of usful information!!! How many sq. ft. were the last to houses you did?


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## heel600

robnj772 said:


> No offense but
> 
> Why the hell would you want to work that cheap??????????????? :wallbash:
> 
> Prices like that just hurt every EC out there trying to make money.We are from the same state and I used to work in your town,I wouldn't leave my house for prices like that


2 things

I don't think making over $1000/day is that bad.

My phone stopped ringing! I'm pounding the pavement, but no luck!


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## MDShunk

heel600 said:


> My phone stopped ringing!


Probably because some other guy is willing to work for $999 a day.


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## heel600

piette said:


> Considering your from the same area, I can understand your point. However where I am in Wisconsin, those prices are right in line with most of us around here. I know some have raised there prices in the last year or two now, but I make good money working for pretty much the same prices he put up.
> 
> Jeff


In 1995 my old boss was getting $13 per rec/light/switch.


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## piette

heel600 said:


> In 1995 my old boss was getting $13 per rec/light/switch.


I worked at shops that were at $13-15 per opening in the 200x's. The shops around here only raised there prices when copper shot up. 

Jeff


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## Celtic

robnj772 said:


> No offense but
> 
> Why the hell would you want to work that cheap??????????????? :wallbash:
> 
> Prices like that just hurt every EC out there trying to make money.We are from the same state and I used to work in your town,I wouldn't leave my house for prices like that


I was thinking the same thing...here are some of my numbers:
Duplex receptacles 
15A Standard $71.57
15A DECORA $75.42

Single pole switches 
15A Standard $80.47
15A DECORA $83.88

3 Way switches 
15A Standard(Pair) $201.02
15A DECORA(Pair) $208.88

Dimmer switches 
600W Standard $95.72
600W DECORA $120.26

GFCI - outlet 
20A Bathroom $65.22
20A Kitchen $75.79
20A Ext. Standard $88.59
20A Ext. DECORA $92.44
20A Laundry $57.22
15A Exterior $121.43

Dedicated 15A Outlets 
MW, GD, DW, Refrig, etc $46.90

Dedicated 20A Circuits 
SABC, Jacuzzi, etc $46.90

Dedicated Outlet 
Dryer 30A $130.05
Range 50A $133.49

Smoke Detector 
Basic $156.92
Combo $211.52

Exhaust fan 
Basic, 45 sq.ft $228.85
Basic, 65 sq.ft $272.00

Vanity Bar 
18"; 3 lamp $196.76
24"; 4 lamp $212.08
​None of these numbers include homeruns or CBs.

I'm curious heel, how did you arrive at your numbers?


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## 480sparky

Amazing how so many respones in a thread titled 'Pricing sq. ft. v. per opening' has mostly per opening prices on it.

Guess wire, boxes, devices, cable, breakers, conduit, panels, wire nuts, etc. are not sold at the supply house by the square foot........


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## Celtic

480sparky said:


> Amazing how so many respones in a thread titled 'Pricing sq. ft. v. per opening' has mostly per opening prices on it.
> 
> Guess wire, boxes, devices, cable, breakers, conduit, panels, wire nuts, etc. are not sold at the supply house by the square foot........


*Sq. Ft. pricing IS possible.*



However, one would need:
- extensive historical data and 
- current material pricing [to the date] edited back into those historical prices and 
- adding current labor rates [labor units "generally" remain the same] plus
- adding for the "improvements" in the NEC that didn't exist when the historical data was originally generated [think AFIC, et al]

By the time one has complied all that data...extrapolated and interloped it all into a new historical finding...I would be on my third "per opening" estimate....and sharing a laugh with the supply house salesman/counter man about the price of 7,000 sq ft of 14/2 NM :jester:


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## 480sparky

Celtic said:


> *Sq. Ft. pricing IS possible.*
> 
> 
> 
> However, one would need:
> - extensive historical data and
> - current material pricing [to the date] edited back into those historical prices and
> - adding current labor rates [labor units "generally" remain the same] plus
> - adding for the "improvements" in the NEC that didn't exist when the historical data was originally generated [think AFIC, et al].....


As well as the homes all being roughly the same size.

I can't see the price difference of a 200a service between a 1,000 ft² home and a 4,000 ft² home.

To top it off, by the time you get over 2,000 ft², you're getting into customs more than spec homes, so now you have HOs wanting tons of extras (58 cans in the kitchen, lights in all the closets, dimmers, tele & TV jacks in every room, instant hot water, .....) and you just cannot price that by the ft².


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## Celtic

480sparky said:


> I can't see the price difference of a 200a service between a 1,000 ft² home and a 4,000 ft² home.


Let me help ya out there sparky. :laughing: ..the 4000' home is probably going to have a pool, jacuzzi and/or a hot tub....200A may not even cut it.



We forgot to mention the heat aspect in the sq.ft. bids.....how much is electric heat per sq. ft. again? :001_unsure:


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## amptech

Here are my materials costs as of today to do a 1400 sq.ft spec home with the following:

10 lighting openings (no cans, but fansafe boxes)
28 switching provisions(includes SP and 3W P&S res grade)
10 GFCI receptacle openings(P&S res grade 15A)
52 standard duplex receptacle openings(P&S comm grade 5252)
1 30A A/C circuit w/NF disconnect, 50' 10-2 and whip
1 40A elect range circuit w/surf mt rec and 50' 8-3 
1 30A water heater circuit w/NF disconnect and 50' 10-2
1 30A dryer circuit w/surf mt rec and 50' 10-3
2000' 12-2
500' 12-3
staples, stud guards, greenies and tan twisters and device cover plates
NM nail-on 1, 2 and 3G boxes for rec/switches
My cost for this list of materials today is $1578.00.
I can rough it in by myself in 30 hours easily and finish it in another 25 for a total of 55 hours allotted (actual time is around 40-45)
I price service entrances separately. 200A back to back with the meter with a 40ct MB copper bus loadcenter full of breakers and copper between the meter and panel runs $525.00 materials costs.
So I now have $2103.00 in a 100 opening house with an electric dryer, water heater and range and a 2T A/C unit.
I charge $1800.00 for the service
I charge $35.00 per opening x 100=$3500.00
I charge $250.00 for the A/C
I charge $200.00 for the WH
I charge $300.00 for the range
I charge $250.00 for the dryer
Customer picks out and purchases all light fixtures/bath fans. I install them for the per opening price.

Total- $6300.00
mat cost- $2103.00
gross profit- $4197.00
less 20% profit- 839.40
labor $3358.00 divided by 55 hours = $61.05 per hour before taxes. And like I said, it would actually take closer to 40 hours which would be around $80.00 per hour before taxes.. Now that's not making $1000.00 a day but its pretty good money around here.


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## 480sparky

Celtic said:


> Let me help ya out there sparky. :laughing: ..the 4000' home is probably going to have a pool, jacuzzi and/or a hot tub....200A may not even cut it.


Yea, but it's gonna be a Green house, so low energy use and a small carbon footprint is engineered into it. I did a 5,000 ft² home a couple years ago and the service worked out to 121 amps. 150 would suffice, but I put in a 200 anyway.



Celtic said:


> We forgot to mention the heat aspect in the sq.ft. bids.....how much is electric heat per sq. ft. again? :001_unsure:


Ft² pricing falls apart in a lot of building trades. How much do countertops cost per ft²? Well, depends on if you want laminate or granite. Flooring? Same thing..... berber or wood? Plumbing.... you want a fiberglass drop-in shower or a full-wrap tile job? I've never seen faucets priced by the square foot.

Some trades, it works well. Drywall, roofing, painting. And I don't ever recall buying paint by the foot, shingles by the pound, or sheetrock by the BTU.


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## Celtic

amptech said:


> H
> I price service entrances separately. 200A back to back with the meter with a 40ct MB copper bus loadcenter full of breakers and copper between the meter and panel runs $525.00 materials costs.
> 
> 
> Customer picks out and purchases all light fixtures/bath fans. I install them for the per opening price.



I think you stole my format :thumbup:


Seriously though...could it be any simpler?
Yes.

I'm trying to incorporate a "shopping list" into my estimating sheet....we have already gathered all the necessary numbers during our take-off to compile the list with a few key strokes.

The list would be broken down to rough and finish....fax/email it to the SH, pick up the goods [better still - delivered] and goto work....even less time "wasted" and a higher per hour result in your pocket :thumbup:


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## user4818

amptech said:


> (P&S comm grade 5252)
> 2000' 12-2
> 500' 12-3


Why do you use 5252's and all #12 for a spec house? :001_huh:


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## Celtic

Peter D said:


> Why do you use ... all #12 for a spec house? :001_huh:


Good question.....local amendment?


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## waco

All said and done, I think it comes down to material costs and labor hours which can then be interpreted into cost per square foot or opening. Tract houses lend themselves to generalized pricing as do multi-unit residential, but the initial estimate -- the bid -- needs more finesse than the generalizations can provide.

New construction pricing has always been a piece of cake for me, but I still struggle with alterations in existing structures and figure I should be happy if I break even. Some of these places are so old and messed up, the liability makes them not even worth doing, but they are also a ticket in to other work.

It never hurts to take care of your "network" because they are the ones who choose you for their projects even though they may go through the motions of competitive selection. Again, the bigger companies can put smaller ones out of business because they can afford to work at a loss until they own the market.


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## amptech

No local amendments, 5252 receps are back wired w/pressure plates making them quick to install. They are also very high quality making call-backs practically non-existent. What I spend more per recep I gain back in installation speed and product durability in the long run. The all 12-2 deal just made it simpler not handling/stocking another 1 or 2 rolls of wire(14-2 and 14-3). Outside of GP lighting there aren't too many other places to use 14 wire to where it is worth the time and trouble to switch back and forth on a fast-moving rough-in.


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## waco

I think the 5252 receps are overkill unless a commercial/industrial environment where they are specified. I share your like for backwire clamping receptacles, but for the money, sidewiring (loop and tighten) still works just fine for me.

For a while, I went with all 12-2, but then went back to using what the circuits needed because 14-2 is so much easier to work with. I designate the wire at layout for the rough (ie, "2g 14-2") and such.


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## trickyricky

Thanks Amptech. That is what I call a GOOD ANSWER


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## ralph

Why not charge accordingly ? You cant give anything away just because your bidding buy the sq ft


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## jgarnett

*Still in the Ditch*



480sparky said:


> Square foot pricing _just doesn't work_ unless you're doing cookie-cutter tracts that are all roughly the same size.
> 
> A 200a service will cost you the same whether the house is 1,000 ft” or 4,000 ft².
> 
> If you take a 2,000 ft² home, and figure your labor, material, and other costs, and divide it by 2000, you'll have a ft” price for a 2000 ft² home.
> 
> If you use that same ft² price for a 1200 ft² home, you'll lose your shirt. Use the same ft² price for a 4000 ft² home, and you'll price yourself out of contention.


Thank You . I Thought I Was the only One Telling This to Builders.


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## ImaDEADBEAT

I will finally answer the question. the answer is Florida.


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## The_Modifier

Yay! the first necro post of 2016 that is over 6 years old!:thumbsup:


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