# 200A breaker won't shut off



## emtnut

My sister is doing reno's and asked me to come by to "take a look" .... Spent thurs to today tracing and running new wires. Hey, it's family :blink:

Anyways, when I went to hook in a new circuit, the 200 A breaker wouldn't turn off. Did a load calc for her house, and she could almost get by with a 100A service.

So question to me is bad breaker design or welded contacts ?

Anyone heard of C.E.B panels ? Eaton has listed breakers for them, but I'm curious as to whether this breaker was overloaded from previous owners, or is C.E.B up there with those 'other' no-trip breakers 

No doubt I'll change it out... but comments with experience on this panel appreciated :thumbup:


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## sbrn33

Just change out the panel t a Siemens or Sq-D. You labor is free anyway so who cares about a few more hours labor. Do it right or don't do it at all.


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## Southeast Power

They can sometimes be coaxed to open. I would spray as much 226 as I could inside of it and then hold it in the open position somehow, for a few hours or overnight. 
Good thing is that it's an inexpensive breaker to replace.


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## sbrn33

jrannis said:


> They can sometimes be coaxed to open. I would spray as much 226 as I could inside of it and then hold it in the open position somehow, for a few hours or overnight.
> Good thing is that it's an inexpensive breaker to replace.


Are you serious?


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## telsa

The implication of the OP is that the panel has experienced 'trauma.'

To my mind, such a failure condemns the design and the gear.

Swap and upgrade.

A load calc down towards 100 Amps is strangely low -- by standards around here.

Is the place a hut ?


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## emtnut

telsa said:


> The implication of the OP is that the panel has experienced 'trauma.'
> 
> To my mind, such a failure condemns the design and the gear.
> 
> Swap and upgrade.
> 
> A load calc down towards 100 Amps is strangely low -- by standards around here.
> 
> Is the place a hut ?


A hut ? ... ala Monty Python ... 'twas only a hole in the ground... but it was a ouse to us ! :laughing:

100A is pretty common up here with a forced air furnace :thumbsup:


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## Southeast Power

sbrn33 said:


> Are you serious?


Once you open it, it will open and close again just fine.


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## sbrn33

jrannis said:


> Once you open it, it will open and close again just fine.


Heck, why not just smack it with a hammer. Or even just use a vise grips.


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## MechanicalDVR

If it's family just do the right thing and swap it out. Why take any chance at all. But knowing humans as I do.....are you close to the sister and BIL ?


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## Southeast Power

sbrn33 said:


> Heck, why not just smack it with a hammer. Or even just use a vise grips.


Usually the handle will move to the open position but it won't click open.
I'm not saying that it's the perfect thing to do but, if you need to open a breaker and it's not happening, I've found it to work, and yes, giving it a little tap on the side will sometimes do it too.


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## emtnut

Mech Diver said:


> If it's family just do the right thing and swap it out. Why take any chance at all. But knowing humans as I do.....are you close to the sister and BIL ?


Close to all my family ... so yeah, she's at least getting a new breaker out of it.
Panel is in great shape apart from the main breaker issue.
Bolt on breakers, and no signs of heat anywhere


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## emtnut

jrannis said:


> Usually the handle will move to the open position but it won't click open.
> I'm not saying that it's the perfect thing to do but, if you need to open a breaker and it's not happening, I've found it to work, and yes, giving it a little tap on the side will sometimes do it too.


Better than adding the circuit live ... but that's a done deal now anyways:thumbsup:


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## Somewhere_401

emtnut said:


> My sister is doing reno's and asked me to come by to "take a look" .... Spent thurs to today tracing and running new wires. Hey, it's family :blink:
> 
> Anyways, when I went to hook in a new circuit, the 200 A breaker wouldn't turn off. Did a load calc for her house, and she could almost get by with a 100A service.
> 
> So question to me is bad breaker design or welded contacts ?
> 
> Anyone heard of C.E.B panels ? Eaton has listed breakers for them, but I'm curious as to whether this breaker was overloaded from previous owners, or is C.E.B up there with those 'other' no-trip breakers
> 
> No doubt I'll change it out... but comments with experience on this panel appreciated :thumbup:


--

C.E.B. Panels are most likely OLD. There are likely other problems with the panel.

This will likely be anywhere from Mid Sixties to late 80s/ early 90s.

You might be able to use a Siemens breaker, but if the main is having problems just replace it.

You already figured that, so just do it. Don't forget to invite the ESA over for a visit :whistling2:


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## donaldelectrician

emtnut said:


> My sister is doing reno's and asked me to come by to "take a look" .... Spent thurs to today tracing and running new wires. Hey, it's family :blink:
> 
> Anyways, when I went to hook in a new circuit, the 200 A breaker wouldn't turn off. Did a load calc for her house, and she could almost get by with a 100A service.
> 
> So question to me is bad breaker design or welded contacts ?
> 
> Anyone heard of C.E.B panels ? Eaton has listed breakers for them, but I'm curious as to whether this breaker was overloaded from previous owners, or is C.E.B up there with those 'other' no-trip breakers
> 
> No doubt I'll change it out... but comments with experience on this panel appreciated :thumbup:







EMTNUT 

You Know 200 A Services are Cheap ....

Family , throw one in so when she wants the Electric Kiln Later...

Smile and put in the breaker .....


What isa CEB Pan ?



Nobody drinks like us .


Don


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## Dennis Alwon

I have had the same issue with Cutler Hammer Panels that we installed in the 80's. All of them were 200 amp main breakers. In 2 weeks I found 3 of them that would not open and someone told me that they had one also. Fortunately CH replaces it for free


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## chicken steve

sbrn33 said:


> Heck, why not just smack it with a hammer. Or even just use a vise grips.


Or call the Fonz...





~C:jester:S~


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## donaldelectrician

Dennis Alwon said:


> I have had the same issue with Cutler Hammer Panels that we installed in the 80's. All of them were 200 amp main breakers. In 2 weeks I found 3 of them that would not open and someone told me that they had one also. Fortunately CH replaces it for free




Dennis =

Do C.H. Still replace those old Red or Black Big 200A CB's some side mount .

some 150 CB's

That is a long time ….

I think I will change them anyway … Who needs the Head Ache Latter



Don


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## RePhase277

emtnut said:


> Better than adding the circuit live ... but that's a done deal now anyways:thumbsup:


I get being safety conscious, but killing a residential panel to add a circuit is a little much. Someone working for me would be required to, but I never do it myself unless it's just a total cluster F.

EDIT: I see that it's a bolt-in breaker. In that case, I might be weary of changing or adding a breaker with a hot bus.


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## Service Call

emtnut said:


> Close to all my family ... so yeah, she's at least getting a new breaker out of it.
> Panel is in great shape apart from the main breaker issue.
> Bolt on breakers, and no signs of heat anywhere



Bolt on breakers, in a residential panel? That's different.


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## telsa

A c/b that can't be manually thrown == MUST be way out of UL specs.

Tack on the age of the panel.
*
It's reached the END of its service life.*

You never want to own a Service until failure.

Think what that would mean.

The fact that it's a bolt-on panel is irrelevant. 

Its time is up.

Big Box Hardware sells all in ones and such for PEANUTS.


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## donaldelectrician

InPhase277 said:


> I get being safety conscious, but killing a residential panel to add a circuit is a little much. Someone working for me would be required to, but I never do it myself unless it's just a total cluster F.
> 
> EDIT: I see that it's a bolt-in breaker. In that case, I might be weary of changing or adding a breaker with a hot bus.



We always added a Hot CB to a Live Bus … Ressi or Commercial …

Make sure the CB is in the OFF Position …. For the hell of it …

Don't drop the screw …



Don


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## EM1

I once spent a Saturday doing a P.M. in a very large government building in Washington, DC. 3, 1200 Amp, GE Mains to switchboards in the basement. Looked to be late 1940's maybe 1950's vintage, and when tested @ 3600 amps for twice the acceptable trip times, none of them ever tripped. Set the fire alarms off twice, from the cable insulation smoking. 

The point I am trying to make is that the Main does not necessarily need to have been exposed to any type of overload current. The most common reason, that I have seen for a circuit breaker that won't open, is because it has never been opened. Many mains are never exercised, and the lubricants inside harden over time, making them functionally defective. 

Opening them at least once a year might be the best P.M.


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## chicken steve

EM1 said:


> Many mains are never exercised, and the lubricants inside harden over time, making them functionally defective.
> 
> Opening them at least once a year might be the best P.M.


Good point EM1:thumbsup:

I'm often deenergizing and _'tuning up'_ older panels , physically working the breakers on/off.

One can sometimes 'feel' the resistance loosening up (probably bad choice of words?)

Is there some UL standard that would apply?:blink:

~CS~


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## emtnut

InPhase277 said:


> I get being safety conscious, but killing a residential panel to add a circuit is a little much. Someone working for me would be required to, but I never do it myself unless it's just a total cluster F.
> 
> EDIT: I see that it's a bolt-in breaker. In that case, I might be weary of changing or adding a breaker with a hot bus.


Bit of a cluster ....
Panel is mounted way too high, messy wiring, left side of panel tight to the wall... of the dark, small closet :blink:.
You know, like most panels out there :laughing:


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## wcord

CEB is basically obsolete in Canada. Branch breakers are available but pricey
eg: single pole 15 A CH -$9, same in CEB $26


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## farlsincharge

CEB/Sylvania is garbage. The lugs strip out, the neutral screws seize, the bus holes strip out. Probably the worst failure point is the bus bar between the main neutral connection and the neutral terminals.
But if it's a bear to change the panel out.
Kill all the branch breakers, pull the meter, change the main, done.


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## donaldelectrician

farlsincharge said:


> CEB/Sylvania is garbage. The lugs strip out, the neutral screws seize, the bus holes strip out. Probably the worst failure point is the bus bar between the main neutral connection and the neutral terminals.
> But if it's a bear to change the panel out.
> Kill all the branch breakers, pull the meter, change the main, done.




Chang the darn Pan out you lazy bum .

That is anew one for me , 



Don


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## eddy current

If those are the ones made by Eaton/Cutler hammer now, they're very expensive. 
2 pole 100 cost me over $100 !!

Cutler Hammer CHB I think?

replaces the old bolt-on sylvania/commander/CEB breakers

edit. I just searched on line, here's a 2 pole 70 for $276 !!!

https://www.platt.com/platt-electri...-120-240V/Eaton/CHB270/product.aspx?zpid=9908


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## nrp3

As much as I'm not a fan of arc faults, the fact that they aren't likely going away, and whether they make arc faults for that panel, might sway my decision. Anything that doesn't have plenty of full spaces, not twins, probably should go. See all these GE 200 amp 20/40's from the 80's that are full and are totally useless if you need to replace a receptacle or add a circuit.


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## emtnut

nrp3 said:


> As much as I'm not a fan of arc faults, the fact that they aren't likely going away, and whether they make arc faults for that panel, might sway my decision. Anything that doesn't have plenty of full spaces, not twins, probably should go. See all these GE 200 amp 20/40's from the 80's that are full and are totally useless if you need to replace a receptacle or add a circuit.


Panel is going ... No GFCI, AFCI, or tandems are available for this, and I haven't found a 'new' 200A breaker anywhere.
AFCI isn't required till May here, but they are planning on staying there and want to do kitchen, bath and basement renos soon.


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## PlugsAndLights

emtnut said:


> Panel is going ... No GFCI, AFCI, or tandems are available for this, and I haven't found a 'new' 200A breaker anywhere.
> AFCI isn't required till May here, but they are planning on staying there and want to do kitchen, bath and basement renos soon.


No requirement now (under 2012 code) to install AFCI's * when replacing 
the service. Don't expect we'll need to install any AFCI's **under the 
2015 code either. Have you heard otherwise? 
*for bedroom plugs
**for nearly all plugs


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## emtnut

PlugsAndLights said:


> No requirement now (under 2012 code) to install AFCI's * when replacing
> the service. Don't expect we'll need to install any AFCI's **under the
> 2015 code either. Have you heard otherwise?
> *for bedroom plugs
> **for nearly all plugs


No, I was referring to the additions. Adding a bathroom, and bedrooms downstairs this summer. Panel is almost full.


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## Signal1

emtnut said:


> Panel is going ......


That decision is going to save you a lot of headaches down the road..... Get rid of it, next time you snap in a breaker you picked up at your regular supplier you'll thank yourself.


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## Meadow

telsa said:


> The implication of the OP is that the panel has experienced 'trauma.'
> 
> To my mind, such a failure condemns the design and the gear.
> 
> Swap and upgrade.
> 
> A load calc down towards 100 Amps is strangely low -- by standards around here.
> 
> Is the place a hut ?



Ok, first Ive read on here the some guys have had numerous problems with Eaton breakers not opening, second 100amps is actually on the high side. Most homes could do a 50 no problem.


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