# Ungrounded main panel



## gottspeed (Mar 8, 2010)

I've heard of this but never seen it before,

I have a Federal Pacific main panel in an old house with no main breaker in it, two hots and two whites going to the meter base. This panel has no ground bus and all the neutrals and bonds are landed on the same strip.

There is also a 60A Pony Panel in the basement, and I'm not sure how to guarantee proper grounding for the circuits coming off it.

Right now the feed for the sub panel has its bonding conductor on the neutral bus on the main panel, along with the neutral.

Will I be violating anything by grounding the subpanel to the waterline downstairs? Customer doesn't want to replace the main panel, just wants plugs grounded downstairs.

Thanks guys, I'm a little rusty in residential.


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## toolaholic (Aug 13, 2010)

gottspeed said:


> I've heard of this but never seen it before,
> 
> I have a Federal Pacific main panel in an old house with no main breaker in it, two hots and two whites going to the meter base. This panel has no ground bus and all the neutrals and bonds are landed on the same strip.
> 
> ...


Are You serious ? You'll be the last one that touched this ! RUN AWAY


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## youngapprentice (Mar 31, 2012)

ive seen it before in a lot of old homes they didnt use mains for 60 amp services. you should be fine just notify the customer and try your best to get that upgrade.


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## gottspeed (Mar 8, 2010)

I'm basically wondering if you can accomplish grounds in a pinch by running #14s from outlet boxes to say a lug on the water pipe... Anybody done that before or see a problem with it?


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## youngapprentice (Mar 31, 2012)

the subpanel should be grounded at the main panel. you seperate the neutrals and the grounds in the subpanel to eradicate any objectionable current in the neutral. so ground the main to water pipe.


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## 3D Electric (Mar 24, 2013)

gottspeed said:


> Part of me wants to leave out the bond in the subpanel feed and use a bonding jumper and continue to the waterline so the rest of the house doesn't try to ground through this sub panel... Ugh... Why.?
> 
> Anybody dealt with this before?


Yes. Do not go to the waterline from the subfed panel. All grounding in a hone must go to the main panel. Is there 4 wire ser going to the sub from the main?


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## 3D Electric (Mar 24, 2013)

gottspeed said:


> I'm basically wondering if you can accomplish grounds in a pinch by running #14s from outlet boxes to say a lug on the water pipe... Anybody done that before or see a problem with it?


Where we are at that is allowed if the waterline is no more that 25 feet from the device you are needing to ground. If it's any further you have to do a new circuit from the panel. And if the panel is a federal or a zinsco here you cannot add new circuits to them. Kind of a catch 22


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## gottspeed (Mar 8, 2010)

Two ungrounded, one grounded and one bonding conductor. The last two are just on the neutral bus in the main.


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## 3D Electric (Mar 24, 2013)

gottspeed said:


> Two ungrounded, one grounded and one bonding conductor. The last two are just on the neutral bus in the main.


Without seeing it what you are describing is correct, the subfed panels neutral and ground should bond at the neutral bar in the main with the bonding jumper


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## gottspeed (Mar 8, 2010)

Soooo... Does it make sense to run a #6 from the N bus in the main to the waterline, and then just ground loads in my sub-panel normally? I think I've got a solution here!


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## 3D Electric (Mar 24, 2013)

gottspeed said:


> Soooo... Does it make sense to run a #6 from the N bus in the main to the waterline, and then just ground loads in my sub-panel normally? I think I've got a solution here!


Yup. That's what ya need to do. Just be sure to separate everything in your subpanel


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## Spunk#7 (Nov 30, 2012)

Could you drive a couple of ground rods and run a piece of #6 bare to the main panel neutral bar and bond to the box?


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## 3D Electric (Mar 24, 2013)

Spunk#7 said:


> Could you drive a couple of ground rods and run a piece of #6 bare to the main panel neutral bar and bond to the box?


Yes that's actually how you are supposed to do it here. For the sub panel is there 4 wire ser running to it?


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## toolaholic (Aug 13, 2010)

gottspeed said:


> I'm basically wondering if you can accomplish grounds in a pinch by running #14s from outlet boxes to say a lug on the water pipe... Anybody done that before or see a problem with it?


I've been told there's a Pex piping wild card doing that !


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## farlsincharge (Dec 31, 2010)

gottspeed said:


> Soooo... Does it make sense to run a #6 from the N bus in the main to the waterline, and then just ground loads in my sub-panel normally? I think I've got a solution here!


That is the answer.

You could throw some ground bars in the main panel, isolate the neutrals and grounds, and then run a bonding jumper between the neutral bar and the can to please an inspector. Electrically though, you aren't accomplishing anything extra by doing this.

That sounds like a pretty sketchy service, but most people don't care. I know of an old bulldog panel than burned a hole through the cover when a breaker was clearing a fault. The people did not want a new service, just fix the breaker. Wouldn't want to cut into the big screen fund.


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## daveEM (Nov 18, 2012)

At some point he is going to have to change the service anyway. Insurance or if he is selling they will flag the the no main and 660,000 amp or whatever that transformer on the pole will supply (no main you see).

By grounding to the water line you are talking the 'street side' of the water meter right? Anything else is a no. Plumber will get in there one day, chop out copper (lose the ground eh) and run his/her damn plastic.

Tell the guy to bite the bullet and fix it. That's what I do. I fix things. $7,000.00 is not a bad price depending on attic work etc.

I try never to hack anything for the current owner and often tell them that. House will stand for another 50 years. He won't be there.


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## AlbertaBeef (Mar 30, 2013)

toolaholic said:


> Are You serious ? You'll be the last one that touched this ! RUN AWAY


This is the best post in this whole thread. If he won't change the panel, get out of dodge and don't look back.


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