# Off brand VFDs



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Avoid chicrap evil bay drives like the plague.

You'd be better off with one of automation directs basic drives, gs1 or gs2's, if you want cheap.


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## Hippie (May 12, 2011)

Hmm thanks I didn't even think of them. Automation direct has had very good prices on some things I have bought from them before but I didn't consider them for this, ill check them out!


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

I've put a few of these in. My Sq D people handle them. Telemecanique branded Altivar 61


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

I've replaced a few no-name VFDs that failed with actual ones that as far as I know, are still in service. 

If it's my choice, it's either Allen Bradley or Baldor. 

I've heard good things about Automation Direct though, one of these days I'll give then a try.


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## NC Plc (Mar 24, 2014)

My employer only uses AB drives. We go cheap on the motors from time to time but we never go cheap on VFD.


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## triden (Jun 13, 2012)

I can tell you from experience that Automation Destruct are chinsy on input protection. Who know what else they cheap out on to get those low prices.

I myself prefer AB, Yaskowa, or Altivars (once you figure out their manual).


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

I wish people would stop buying Alticrap. Maybe then Schneider would just put them out of their misery.


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## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

That "no-name" drive actually has one, it's called Huanyang, which I tell people represents the sound you make when you realize you just flushed the money down the toilet. The reason they don't show you the name now is because of the bad reputation. If you search on that drive name, you will find countless websites of people BEGGING for help in trying to figure out why their drive is not working a few weeks or months later. It is by far, one of the worse pieces of feces on the market. I've had friends buy them and ask me to help fogure out what went wrong, so ive torn a couple apart. Bad design, crappy PC board traces, poor component selection, control algorithms copied from other manufacturers so they can't figure out what's wrong to fix them, I could go on and on. There are even a couple of YouTube videos of people who have dissected them.

Many of the FleaBay resellers are fly-by-night shills for the Chinese company that is spewing this crap on us. You cannot contact the mfr. directly, you can only contact the resellers, who often bring in a large quantity of the drives, sell them off dirt cheap, then disappear and/or change their names on FleaBay every 6 months or so before all the complaints pile up. They will often send you out a new POS to replace your failed POS, but are gone before the 2nd one fails too.

PS: they are NOT UL listed, even though some of the FleaBay sites claim it, and their specs on the websites are often blatant lies, such as the ones saying they can run a 5HP motor from single phase without de-rating the drive. After you get it and read the manual, it tells you that you have to de-rate the drive...


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## Hippie (May 12, 2011)

Hmm well that sounds like something to stay away from. I know damn well a 5 hp drive wont run a 5 hp motor on single phase power and if theyre claiming that well thats just too shady. Im going to look into the automation direct stuff when I get a chance.. as much as I would like to put in a nice AB this guy isn't going to want to pay for one of those. There's a reason he has this 3 phase mixer to begin with lol.... it was the cheapest one :-/


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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

We never use off brands.

We used to use only AB until a new distributor in town started carrying ABB. I like them both. ABB is a definitely cheaper though.


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## varmit (Apr 19, 2009)

ABB bought the Baldor drives division a couple of years ago. A few of the Baldor models are now sold as ABB.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

varmit said:


> ABB bought the Baldor drives division a couple of years ago. A few of the Baldor models are now sold as ABB.


Indeed they did, and the new drives have a programming feature that allows the selection of either ABB control or Baldor control.


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## triden (Jun 13, 2012)

Jlarson said:


> I wish people would stop buying Alticrap. Maybe then Schneider would just put them out of their misery.


What's wrong with Alticrap? Just did a plant with over 100 Altivar 61's and a couple 71's. Sure, they have their quirks, but once you figure them out, people will be calling you for your expertise.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

People call us to replace them. We end up putting a lot of almost new ones in the dumpster because no one here can stand them.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

varmit said:


> ABB bought the Baldor drives division a couple of years ago. A few of the Baldor models are now sold as ABB.


I thought Baldor bought ABB and Reliance?



micromind said:


> Indeed they did, and the new drives have a programming feature that allows the selection of either ABB control or Baldor control.


I loved the 15H Inverter and the 18H vector from Baldor.
So you can use Baldors old programming language (English)?


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## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

John Valdes said:


> I thought Baldor bought ABB and Reliance?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Rockwell bought Reliance, then sold the motor and gearbox division off to Baldor, keeping only the drives and automation units. Baldor was then later bought by ABB, who has dumped the older Baldor drive lines now and re-brand the ABB drives as Baldor. They also fired most of their ABB industrial drives reps and retained the Baldor reps instead, who tend to know more about motors than drives. In some areas, like mine, that ended up being a mistake. The local ABB industrial drives rep was good, the Baldor people don't know drives very well at all and have been losing ground right and left in the industrial market. 

But ABB still kicks butt in the HVAC market, mostly because of a smart move years ago in setting up a totally separate sales organization that goes through reps that are also reps for the major HVAC equipment lines.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

John Valdes said:


> I thought Baldor bought ABB and Reliance?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The newer Baldor drives program very much like the older ones; if you understand what the parameters mean, you can completely program a drive without the manual.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

JRaef said:


> Rockwell bought Reliance, then sold the motor and gearbox division off to Baldor, keeping only the drives and automation units. Baldor was then later bought by ABB, who has dumped the older Baldor drive lines now and re-brand the ABB drives as Baldor. They also fired most of their ABB industrial drives reps and retained the Baldor reps instead, who tend to know more about motors than drives. In some areas, like mine, that ended up being a mistake. The local ABB industrial drives rep was good, the Baldor people don't know drives very well at all and have been losing ground right and left in the industrial market.
> 
> But ABB still kicks butt in the HVAC market, mostly because of a smart move years ago in setting up a totally separate sales organization that goes through reps that are also reps for the major HVAC equipment lines.


This makes a lot of sense; the newer Baldor drives look a lot like the older ABB ones. And they program pretty much the same as well.


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

The size of VFD depends on the current, thus the torque. A dough mixer or a hoist should be able to produce full torque + more from zero RPM to get it going. A lot of shop tools like drill press or table saw are allowed to spin up with no load and they almost never get loaded anything close to the rated load, which is what a lot of people buy those cheap drives for.

It takes a compressor running at maximum rated pressure or more, or a fully loaded elevator to require the rated torque. If you look at the maximum pounds and number of people allowed on the tag in an elevator, you'd see that its not possible to load that many people in without extreme discomfort. 

If the dough mixer is way bigger than they need, it will run light. If it's under sized and used at its maximum capacity, the VFD will have to produce correspondingly more torque. A 1,725 RPM 5hp motor only produces 1/2 hp at 173RPM... but it'd at like 24v 6Hz at over 20A.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

JRaef said:


> Rockwell bought Reliance, then sold the motor and gearbox division off to Baldor, keeping only the drives and automation units. Baldor was then later bought by ABB, who has dumped the older Baldor drive lines now and re-brand the ABB drives as Baldor. They also fired most of their ABB industrial drives reps and retained the Baldor reps instead, who tend to know more about motors than drives. In some areas, like mine, that ended up being a mistake. The local ABB industrial drives rep was good, the Baldor people don't know drives very well at all and have been losing ground right and left in the industrial market.
> 
> But ABB still kicks butt in the HVAC market, mostly because of a smart move years ago in setting up a totally separate sales organization that goes through reps that are also reps for the major HVAC equipment lines.


I remember when Baldor decided to consolidate their drive manufacturing and support. To relocate to Ft. Smith and leave Seattle! :blink:
Many said F you and Baldor had to hire guys to take these jobs in Ft. Smith. This may have something to do with your perception of their abilities?
Its an opinion that ABB drive people know more than Baldor drive people. But if you ask ABB or their distributors, they will tell you this.
They are all cut from the same cloth, IMO.
Now, to be a drives authorized repair facility for Baldor was easy. Not so much with ABB. I really like ABB. But my experience in this business was with Baldor guys mostly. I had many friends in Seattle and Ft. Smith over the years. Guys I have not spoken to in years now.

We had some very good times, especially after work.


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## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

I lived in Seattle when the Sweo Drives deal went down, and you're right, a lot of good people refused to relocate to Arkansas from the PNW. But I wasn't referring to the factory people, my experience is that the local Baldor reps were / are very good with motors, but not so much with drives. Baldor's strength in the market was that their motor reps were also stocking warehouses and that was a great thing for the motor business. But at least around here and in Seattle, they were, as they say, "fat dumb and happy" with the motor business and paid little attention to drives. Whereas the former ABB industrial drives reps were very good, but got the axe anyway. It was a shame in my opinion.


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

That's another thing with cheapo drives. You get no support at all.


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## Hippie (May 12, 2011)

You know what electric light, I never even considered the load on the motor factor, I was just automatically thinking to derate for full load, which is probably overkill for this scenario. However better safe than sorry. I ordered a 2 hp g2 drive from automation direct, they told me it was rated to run a 2 hp motor on single phase input power so hopefully it will. I have it in writing in case this isn't the case lol, we shall see. Im interested to see how their drive does, the price was good, about midway between one of those ebay drives and a name brand one.


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

Hippie said:


> You know what electric light, I never even considered the load on the motor factor, I was just automatically thinking to derate for full load, which is probably overkill for this scenario. However better safe than sorry. I ordered a 2 hp g2 drive from automation direct, they told me it was rated to run a 2 hp motor on single phase input power so hopefully it will. I have it in writing in case this isn't the case lol, we shall see. Im interested to see how their drive does, the price was good, about midway between one of those ebay drives and a name brand one.


That VFD is rated 3ph 7A output. Is that enough for the motor at full load?

Specs are above and beyond Yaskawa... on paper. 

Input range between 180 to 264v, 1 or 3 phase. Hard to believe. If there's no derating for single phase, then some of the components are already way overbuilt... I'll leave it up to you to believe. 

here's the reality: Unless it has a voltage boost active front end, the DC bus voltage drops with input voltage and VFD loses some voltage. So, if you're running a 208v input, you're already going to be at 200v or so and if the input drops to 200v, the output drops to like 190v which limits the maximum RPM without losing torque. These sad facts of reality are less likely to be disclosed in generic stuff. 

Things like input chokes are listed as optional. 
https://www.automationdirect.com/static/manuals/gs2m/gs2m.pdf

If you slow the motor down to half the speed, you only get 1/2 the horsepower and you're limited by the torque. Under powered VFD is more tolerable if it has multiple mechanical gears since you can "shift down" and rev up past 60 Hz if need to be, but if it doesn't shift down, you have no choice but to reduce the load.

I fried the motor on a blender while mixing a shake. The household stuff was not meant to handle the load. If it never saw a shake, I wouldn't have noticed the limits. It was fine for several years only because it was never used to make a shake before. It would've fried on the first day if it was. It was not an unreasonable use. They simply chose to warranty or refund for a few times this does happen during a warranty instead of kill their sale by disclosing the limitations on the box. 

VFDs are similar to power supplies and a lot of consumer grade stuff don't live up to the specs. 

Load down a 500W PC power supply rated and drop the voltage down to 90v (they do say 100-240v +/- 10%...)
Couple things can happen:

-loss of regulation. Voltage may drop.
-loss of factory smoke. It may stop working. 
-failing after a few month. 

Well, if they rated it at 200W @ 120v, 180W @ 100v, +/- 10% it would've survived, but who's gonna buy it when other cheap stuff sells the same stuff as "500W" ?

A reputable brand one will provide rated output within rated conditions or they're honest about derating. Derating is not a bad thing. If it could handle 1.0 hp @ 240v or 0.8 hp @ 208v, not derating it means it would be labeled as 0.8 hp for either. A cheap one might claim 1.0 hp for all use, but just milking bit of safety margin.


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## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

Many small 240V drives, 3HP (2.2kW) and below, are built to accept single phase input without de-rating, because the components at that size range only go down to a certain size anyway, meaning you can't get them any smaller. So the drive is inherently capable of more current than the corresponding motor connected to it. 

There are three main power sections in the VFD; the diode bridge rectifier, the DC bus capacitors, and the output transistor inverter. In the case of a 3HP 230V 3 phase motor drive, the diode input bridge rectifier components will be capable of around 20A, because that's the smallest diode bridge they can make anyway. So that is more than enough to handle a single phase input for a 9.6A motor. The capacitance is enough to smooth out that extra ripple caused by single phase rectification as well. So for no added money, the same set of devices can do either 3 phase or single phase. The price of the drive is often different because the OUTPUT transistors are expensive too, and they change with motor size more dramatically, but that part is always the same whether the drive derives its power from 3 phases or 2.

Most small drives will also be capable of a wide input voltage range, such as the 180-264V as stated. But don't be misled; if you put in 180V, the maximum you can get out of it is 180V. You can't put in 180V and get 230V out of it.


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

JRaef said:


> Many small 240V drives, 3HP (2.2kW) and below, are built to accept single phase input without de-rating, because the components at that size range only go down to a certain size anyway, meaning you can't get them any smaller. So the drive is inherently capable of more current than the corresponding motor connected to it.


Not derating means ability to handle the same input and environment within published specs. Even Yaskawa derates input voltage range on single phase use. 



JRaef said:


> There are three main power sections in the VFD; the diode bridge rectifier, the DC bus capacitors, and the output transistor inverter. In the case of a 3HP 230V 3 phase motor drive, the diode input bridge rectifier components will be capable of around 20A, because that's the smallest diode bridge they can make anyway.
> So that is more than enough to handle a single phase input for a 9.6A motor. The capacitance is enough to smooth out that extra ripple caused by single phase rectification as well. So for no added money, the same set of devices can do either 3 phase or single phase. The price of the drive is often different because the OUTPUT transistors are expensive too, and they change with motor size more dramatically, but that part is always the same whether the drive derives its power from 3 phases or 2.


They have very good explanations if you want to read into it. 
http://www1.yaskawa.com/site/dmdrive.nsf/link2/NKOE-7GPJP8/$file/AN.AFD.15.pdf

A fully loaded 3 ph motor at 85% efficiency and 90% drive efficiency requires
2.8kW input WITHOUT service factor. For the reasons explained by Yaskawa, the power factor will be around 0.7 with single phase input, or 0.9 with 3 phase input DC WITH link choke. 

It is around 0.55 to 0.6 without. The input harmonics will be sky high. That said, 2.8kW at 0.55 PF is 5.1kVA. 5.1kVA at 230v is 22A. The peak current will be 60-80A because needle spike waveform and most semiconductor devices do care about peak. If you put single phase into a three phase model, two of the six diodes are unused. When 3 phase power is rectified, it never drops to zero. Single phase does and capacitors have to pick up a much deeper notch. 

2.8kW at 0.9PF at 230v 3 ph is only 7.8A. 

The specs for the Chinese one says chokes and RFI filters are "optional" and they don't disclose the PF or THDi specs on the input. 



> Most small drives will also be capable of a wide input voltage range, such as the 180-264V as stated. But don't be misled; if you put in 180V, the maximum you can get out of it is 180V. You can't put in 180V and get 230V out of it.


Not unless they have an active front end that is commonly used in electronic ballasts (both for fluorescent and LEDs). It isn't common for industrial drives. 

No derating means a 208v-230v rated motors can deliver name plate hp at 200v input. Fans drop in torque with the slightest RPM loss, but compressors and dough mixers don't. 

Try a fully loaded 3 hp 208v motor on a 3 hp Chinese VFD at 122°F ambient while giving it 200v input voltage (w/in the -5% specs for the motor). See if it lives an acceptable lifetime without tripping or smoking and staying within acceptable harmonics level on the motor side that can overheat the motor. Omitting the limits in specs don't make it "just as good". Most of the time, the load don't put the motor to the limit (especially if the motor is generously sized as in older American made machinery)and if they get by for a month or two, people on the internet usually gives a good review... or they've already left by the time factory filled smoke leaks out.


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## oliquir (Jan 13, 2011)

i used a lot of automation direct vfd, but only the gs3 , (they are in fact delta vfd's with minor software difference) the gs1 are very cheap (have blown a lot of them)
if you use a no name one, check that it is at least UL listed


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## Hippie (May 12, 2011)

I got a automation direct gs3, I havent finished it up yet though. I was installing it friday and ended up leaving before i was done, with this issue:

The mixer has integral controls, a stop/start and a timer, which originally controlled a contactor inside the unit to turn the motor off and on. What I was going to do was take the motor off the contactor, connect it directly to the VFD output, and use the contactor as an on off input for the start input on the VFD. The problem is, the original circuit has a momentary stop button (to break the holding circuit to the contactor) and Im having a mental block as to how to change that to the stop input on the VFD instead. If anyone has a bright idea to fix this problem i woulld love to hear it. I just have too much going on right now and every time this issue comes floating through my head i just get angry and frustrated haha.. I know theres got to be a simple solution I just cant think of it right now


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## varmit (Apr 19, 2009)

You say that you are using the existing contactor as a control relay for the VFD? If so, wire and set the VFD parameters for "2 wire control" via a contact on the contactor. The existing stop-start logic will work like it always has. This is a very common way to do the controls on a conversion from a starter to a VFD.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

varmit said:


> You say that you are using the existing contactor as a control relay for the VFD? If so, wire and set the VFD parameters for "2 wire control" via a contact on the contactor. The existing stop-start logic will work like it always has. This is a very common way to do the controls on a conversion from a starter to a VFD.


This is the best way to deal with the controls, but remember to connect the input of the VFD to a constant hot source. Don't connect it to the load side of the starter; if you do, eventually the input resistors will burn up.


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## varmit (Apr 19, 2009)

micromind said:


> This is the best way to deal with the controls, but remember to connect the input of the VFD to a constant hot source. Don't connect it to the load side of the starter; if you do, eventually the input resistors will burn up.


Yes, this is true. I see line side contactors way to often on conversions.


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## Hippie (May 12, 2011)

Thanks! I knew it had to be something simple! Im not using the contactor on the line at all, its simply an on off switch using the existing stop start buttons and timer circuit


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