# Patient care areas



## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

I have a job building out a Dr. Office with exam rooms. I used AC cable with the aluminum bare conductor and snap in fittings. I'm not sure if I should connect the green wire to the 1900 box and the receptacle. I usually pipe these jobs and am using AC cable for the first time.
Also, can I use regular MC for the lighting or does it have to also be AC cable?

Much thanks guys.

BTW,

I think we are in 2008 here


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## JHFWIC (Mar 22, 2012)

I use Medical MC in the exam rooms, and romex every where else.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

jrannis said:


> I have a job building out a Dr. Office with exam rooms. I used AC cable with the aluminum bare conductor and snap in fittings. I'm not sure if I should connect the green wire to the 1900 box and the receptacle. I usually pipe these jobs and am using AC cable for the first time.
> Also, can I use regular MC for the lighting or does it have to also be AC cable?
> 
> Much thanks guys.
> ...


If it's for regular receptacle circuits in the appropriate patient care location then the AC jacket & fittings should satisfy the requirement for the wiring method to itself qualify as an EGC. The green wire inside will bond to the box and to the receptacle. The idea is redundant fault current paths in case one of them is compromised. Here's the code section:



> 517.13 Grounding of Receptacles and Fixed Electrical
> Equipment in Patient Care Areas. Wiring in patient care
> areas shall comply with 517.13(A) and (B).
> (A) Wiring Methods. All branch circuits serving patient
> ...



If it's an isolated ground receptacle, however, then you'll need cable with the bonded jacket, a regular EGC wire inside, AND an additional IGC.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Nothing on the plans calls out isolated ground.
Thanks for the heads about the box grounding.
Is regular MC permitted for a light switch and one 2x4 layin fixture? 10' ceilings if that matters.
BTW, we never see romex in commercial here.


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## WarAdmiral (Jul 13, 2012)

If you are talking about the new quick connect wire. A purple jacket usually.the way this is installed is you cut the aluminum ground put the snap in connector and you are done. In the case of running a 12/2 the aluminum ground is 10 in size. That 10 is inter wound on the jacket to maintain a ground.


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## WarAdmiral (Jul 13, 2012)

Here. 

http://www.kaf-tech.com/pdf/kt0910_mc_q_s_cat_web.pdf


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## emahler (Oct 13, 2011)

jrannis said:


> Nothing on the plans calls out isolated ground.
> Thanks for the heads about the box grounding.
> Is regular MC permitted for a light switch and one 2x4 layin fixture? 10' ceilings if that matters.
> BTW, we never see romex in commercial here.


Only if the switch(s) are not in the exam room. We usually put them outside in the hall.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

emahler said:


> Only if the switch(s) are not in the exam room. We usually put them outside in the hall.


They are in the room. I wired six out of the nine rooms with regular MC for the lights. Gotta rip it out today and use it for the offices. 
I am paying just under $200 per 250' roll of AC cable. 
I still think I could have piped it cheaper. Plus I would have stranded wire to work with, I'm not a big fan of solid wire.


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## Roger. (Dec 18, 2011)

It wouldn't matter if the switches were outside the room, the fixtures (even if they're above 7.5') has to wired with a wiring method that the metallic sheath is recognized as an EGC and regular MC is not. See 517.13(B) _Exception #2,_ it only allows getting rid of the insulated wire EGC. 517.13(A) must still be met.


Roger


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Thanks Roger!


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## Roger. (Dec 18, 2011)

jrannis said:


> Thanks Roger!


 You're welcome

Roger


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## emahler (Oct 13, 2011)

Roger. said:


> It wouldn't matter if the switches were outside the room, the fixtures (even if they're above 7.5') has to wired with a wiring method that the metallic sheath is recognized as an EGC and regular MC is not. See 517.13(B) _Exception #2,_ it only allows getting rid of the insulated wire EGC. 517.13(A) must still be met.
> 
> 
> Roger


i read that "shall be permitted" means you may use a metallic raceway for the grounding...or you may use a ground wire...

in '08 is was a change from '05

in '05 is said in exception #2 "luminaires more than.......'shall not be required to be grounded by an insulated equipment grounding conductor'"

not required, but legal...could use 'BX' or 'MC'...517(A) doesn't require the redundant ground...517(B) is what requires it...

in '08, the wording was changed to "Luminaires......shall be permitted to be connected to equipment ground path complying with 517.13(A)

again, no requirement for redundant ground...so you can use EMT, BX or MC..

No need for HCF for the lights in this situation...

but also, no RX allowed for lights either...

the one dentist office we did with RX (NM), i believe with ran the exam room lights in MC...

it was an abortion...HCF for exam receptacles, MC for exam lights, NM for all non-patient areas...

but SOP is HCF for exam receptacles and lights below 7.5'...regular MC for remainder...with exam room switches in the hallway.


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## Roger (Jul 7, 2007)

emahler said:


> i read that "shall be permitted" means you may use a metallic raceway for the grounding...or you may use a ground wire...
> 
> in '08 is was a change from '05
> 
> ...


Eric, Eric, Eric, I could let you go through life being incorrect but I am going to help you here. 

Since you don't want to listen to me go to this thread specifically the link in post #16, look at Gaylen's illustration and take note of what he says about the fixtures, the sheath must comply with 517.13(A), there is no getting around this. 

Roger


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## emahler (Oct 13, 2011)

Roger said:


> Eric, Eric, Eric, I could let you go through life being incorrect but I am going to help you here.
> 
> Since you don't want to listen to me go to this thread specifically the link in post #16, look at Gaylen's illustration and take note of what he says about the fixtures, the sheath must comply with 517.13(A), there is no getting around this.
> 
> Roger


it wouldn't be the 1st time an inspector is wrong...

read the wording in the code book...shall be permitted...not shall be connected...

the code book is permissive...if it doesn't explicitly say it can't be done, than it can...

we do about 3 ground up dialysis clinics a year, a dozen dr/dentist offices and service for about 70 medical locations...

now, unless every single inspector I deal with on these is also incorrect, i'm sticking with my version...

the wording was better in the '05...the code nazi's over at holt (just guessing) had nothing better to do and decided to redo the wording in a much less straight forward manner...but it's still the same...

"shall be permitted to be connected" is not the same as "shall be connected"

now, you can run HCF for these lights all you want...doesn't matter to me...


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

It seems to me that the problem lies where somewhere in the "likely to be energized" wording. 
I wouldn't think a switch would very likely become energized. 
The last one of these I did had motion sensors in the ceiling for the individual exam rooms.
It also seems to make a difference if the switch is outside of the room.

So, In conclusion, could we say that HCF type AC cable or EMT would be required for a light switch in an exam room?


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## Roger (Jul 7, 2007)

emahler said:


> now, you can run HCF for these lights all you want...doesn't matter to me...


 Where did you see that I said you had to use HCF? I said you couldn't use MC. Go to 250.118 and tell me where run of the mill MC is listed as an EGC

I don't know what you are talking about as far as "shall be permitted" "shall not be permitted" in regards to any wording in 517.13(B) changing the requirement of 517.13(A).


Roger


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## Roger (Jul 7, 2007)

jrannis said:


> So, In conclusion, could we say that HCF type AC cable or EMT would be required for a light switch in an exam room?


 Yes.

But becareful if there are Critical Branch circuits involved, see 517.30(C)(3)(3)


Roger


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## emahler (Oct 13, 2011)

Roger said:


> Where did you see that I said you had to use HCF? I said you couldn't use MC. Go to 250.118 and tell me where run of the mill MC is listed as an EGC
> 
> I don't know what you are talking about as far as "shall be permitted" "shall not be permitted" in regards to any wording in 517.13(B) changing the requirement of 517.13(A).
> 
> ...


Read the code section. It takes away the redundant ground requirement. It says you may use the metallic conduit/sheathing in lieu of an insulated ground. Or you can use an insulated ground in lieu of the metal raceway/sheathing

Code specifically says "shall be permitted to be connected"


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

emahler said:


> Read the code section. It takes away the redundant ground requirement. It says you may use the metallic conduit/sheathing in lieu of an insulated ground. Or you can use an insulated ground in lieu of the metal raceway/sheathing
> 
> Code specifically says "shall be permitted to be connected"


For the record... I'm gonna be one of the "wrong" inspectors in your opinion.



Standard MC cable is not a wiring method that complies with 517.13(A).

The verbiage in exception 2 to 517.13(B)(1)(3) states plainly that you are permitted to connect to an insulated EGC. *That's all the exception tells us.*

As Roger pointed out you still have to use a wiring method that complies with 517.13(A). To reiterate... the jacket of standard MC cable does not qualify as an EGC and therefore does not meet the requirements of 517.13(A).

Pete


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## emahler (Oct 13, 2011)

Ok, but think about this....if the luminaries are above 7.5', the switches are in the hall, and its not connected in any way to the areas receptacle circuit....is the wiring for the lighting actually in the patient care area?


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## emahler (Oct 13, 2011)

Pete m. said:


> For the record... I'm gonna be one of the "wrong" inspectors in your opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Actually, the exception 2 permits you to not use a ground wire, so long as you use a metallic conduit/sheathing that complies with 517.13a

Any steel mc cable, I believe, meets this requirement. But I don't believe it's even required. 

What is the difference between a copper ground wire and a metallic conduit/sheathing ground?


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

emahler said:


> Any steel mc cable, I believe, meets this requirement.


Nope, only MCAP or Hospital grade MC.


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## emahler (Oct 13, 2011)

Was told MCTuff. Obviously haven't verified it.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

I had the inspection today. Passed

Let's just say that if I had used MC for the lights, it would not have been noticed.


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