# 363ibew



## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

Switchgear277 said:


> Just got into laybor history for local 363 Hudson valley ny
> . So basically I'll have to go to school for s year and learn history of the local and after I compleate it.
> 
> I will get swarm in as 1st year app
> ...


Welcome to the forum.

I was a local 363 contractor back in the mid 80's. Plenty of brothers here that will give you lots of good tips for being successful in the union.

Good luck to you brother!


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Welcome aboard! Enjoy the ride here and best of luck in your new task!


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## Switchgear277 (Mar 18, 2017)

Thank you I'm so excited to join the brotherhood .

I have a lot of questions this is all new to me .

Everyone from my non union shop said I was crazy from going from 28ph to 12 ph but I know it's worth it .
I almost cried when I got my letter telling me I got into laybor history .

I know 363 books are cleared right know so it's a good time to join


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Switchgear277 said:


> Thank you I'm so excited to join the brotherhood .
> 
> I have a lot of questions this is all new to me .
> 
> ...


You're welcome! 

When your total package is 3x their pay rate make sure you drop them a message or two.


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## Switchgear277 (Mar 18, 2017)

Oo I deff will remind them .


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

It's LABOR not "laybor".


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## Switchgear277 (Mar 18, 2017)

Thank you brother .


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## Julius793 (Nov 29, 2011)

363 is hurting for work good luck hope you stay working


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## Switchgear277 (Mar 18, 2017)

Julius793 said:


> 363 is hurting for work good luck hope you stay working


How you figure their books are clear right now no ones sitting .


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Local 363:

IBEW Local 363 members are still at work on the new Tappan Zee Bridge and everything is going along according to schedule.

The craftsmanship and expertise is second to none and will be a monument to the IBEW and Local 363 for generations to come.

As our other large projects start to develop, we expect to have many job opportunities for local workers and our IBEW Brothers out there. We are on the mark and active.


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## Switchgear277 (Mar 18, 2017)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Local 363:
> 
> IBEW Local 363 members are still at work on the new Tappan Zee Bridge and everything is going along according to schedule.
> 
> ...


 yes I've heard that our brothers are doing an excellent job on the bridge . A lot of pride going into the project . Plus they have a big casino going up . And a lego box goin through as well not to mention 363 has a lot of pull in their territory 
I've heard from many brothers it is an excellent local to be in . 

So I'm excited to start can't wait .


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## Switchgear277 (Mar 18, 2017)

Switchgear277 said:


> MechanicalDVR said:
> 
> 
> > Local 363:
> ...


 and apprentices usually stay busy so I'm not Shure how 363 is hurting ic their books are clear rite now


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Switchgear277 said:


> yes I've heard that our brothers are doing an excellent job on the bridge . A lot of pride going into the project . Plus they have a big casino going up . And a lego box goin through as well not to mention 363 has a lot of pull in their territory
> I've heard from many brothers it is an excellent local to be in .
> 
> So I'm excited to start can't wait .


From what I hear they are doing very well.


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

Apprentices are guaranteed work throughout their tenure. They are eligible to be laid off when they complete the Program.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

icefalkon said:


> Apprentices are guaranteed work throughout their tenure. They are eligible to be laid off when they complete the Program.


Is this a 363 policy? If there is no work, does the local pay them?

While apprentices usually always work, about 7 years ago my local hit 100 apprentices out of work.


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

HackWork said:


> Is this a 363 policy? If there is no work, does the local pay them?
> 
> While apprentices usually always work, about 7 years ago my local hit 100 apprentices out of work.


No the individual Local does not pay them, the Contract has a stipulation that provides for that. 

You had 100 Apprentices out of work? What local are you in? We have 2000 Apprentices here in LU#3 that are kept working for 4 straight years...until they become MIJ's. Even during the time from 2009 until 2013 when we were at 49% employment the Apprentices are kept working. When you get into LU#3, it's guaranteed that you stay employed as you are essentially an "indentured apprentice".


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

icefalkon said:


> No the individual Local does not pay them, the Contract has a stipulation that provides for that.


 How does the contract enforce that? By making contractors keep apprentices on the payroll when there is no work?



> You had 100 Apprentices out of work? What local are you in?


Yes, over 100. Local 102.



> We have 2000 Apprentices here in LU#3 that are kept working for 4 straight years...until they become MIJ's. Even during the time from 2009 until 2013 when we were at 49% employment the Apprentices are kept working. When you get into LU#3, it's guaranteed that you stay employed as you are essentially an "indentured apprentice".


How is it guaranteed? I don't want to hear that they always worked in the past, I want to k ow how the local guarantees that they will always work? What would they do if there is no work? I would like to see this guarantee in writing as well as the associated steps they would take.


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

HackWork said:


> How does the contract enforce that? By making contractors keep apprentices on the payroll when there is no work?
> 
> 
> Yes, over 100. Local 102.
> ...


LOL very aggressive this morning are we? You sound as if you don't believe me...Well, here you go, Brother...

http://www.sackscom.com/necany/eletter/april2011/CBA Final 1.21.11.pdf

That is the 2010 Contractors Agreement. Of interest to your questions above go to Page 44 on the PDF which would be Page 37 of the Document. It's plain and simple but I'll be glad to explain. On every job where there is 1 JW, there is 1 apprentice. then, in time, it went down to a ratio of 3:1...ie: 3 JW's for 1 App...

Let's first address your question: *what would they do if there is no work?*

In NYC there are 246 signatory contractors in the A Construction Division. We also have an M Construction Division, and the new Division we just created for Residential Work. The Contract I have sent you is for the A Charter. What if a contractor has no work, the Union pulls the Apprentice out of the shop and sends him to another shop. As I'm sure you know about construction trades...employers will ALWAYS want Apprentices. They are cheap labor.

Your next question: *I would like to see this guarantee in writing*...

I have just given you that. The Contract is binding on both parties. Now please understand something about the demographics of work in the NYC area...while we have lost market share in some areas, we control the lion's share of the commercial construction industry...ie: deck jobs, malls, highways, etc. While contractors like Tap and others that are not IBEW may work on some of these projects, they are a fraction of the industry in general. That being said, Apprentices *are* guaranteed work by the language of the contract. Here is another page for you to look at:

http://www.jibei.org/apprentice.asp

In summary: 
*Apprentice Program
Five and One-Half Year Program
The Apprentice Program of the Electrical Industry of IBEW Local Union No. 3 includes a minimum of 35 hours per week on-the-job training for four years plus the following requirements:
Mandatory attendance at related instruction for four (4) hours per week;
Classroom instruction in Electrical Theory; and
Three (3) hours per week in college courses leading to an associate degree.
The fifth and final period will consist of four (4) hours per week of related instruction for 18 months and a minimum of 35 hours per week of work (from 18 months to two years).*

"*as well as the associated steps they would take*"

How do we enforce this? Simple, the Joint Industry Board working alongside LU#3 and it's signatory contractors agree to follow these rules. When a contractor abuses these rules or breaks them, the Local imposes restrictions. Some could be pulling Apprentices or JW out of a shop, other times it could be monetary, etc. That is for the attorneys to work out. 

However, I am sure that if you take the time to call the Joint Industry Board and ask for the Apprentice Department they will be glad to go into more detail for you. 

I think I've addressed all your questions. 

Have a great day!


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I'm not aggressive, I just don't believe you.

How can a labor union guarantee work?

Nothing you have posted shows where there is a guarantee of work. 

Yes, I know that apprentices are cheap and usually always work. However, that doesn't mean that there will definitely always be work for them. As I explained, my local had over 100 apprentices out at one point, even though before and after they had 100% employment.

So again I will ask you to show me I writing where there is a guarantee hat all apprentices will always work, and explain how that is possible if there is no work for them.


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

Did you even read what I put above? Did you visit the website of the Joint Industry Board of the Electrical Industry? Why don't you ask one of your Business Representatives if they know anything about Local 3's policy? I'm sure someone will point you in the right direction. 

Now, that being said HW, I don't believe ANY answer will be good enough for you. You have already made your mind up that you are right and I am wrong. Even though I have presented you with more than enough information to make my point. 

At this point, I have done my due diligence with regards to answering your question. Local 3 IBEW was the first Local in the United States to guarantee apprentices continuous work throughout their tenure. If your individual local does not have that, I'm sorry but that doesn't affect the fact that we, and others, do in fact have that. Your disbelief has been presented with proof of our policy, and yet you think I'm lying lol. 

We also were the first Local in the United States to have a work share program (yes...furlough) and guess what? Locals around the country have been implementing it over the last 8yrs because it works in some jurisdictions. If we can make it work with 15,000 A Journeymen, I'm sure it can do something to help out Locals with 1500. In LU#3 we have 15k AJ's, 10K MJ's, 2K Apprentices, and approx 3K Administrative Workers. That's approximately 30,000 Local 3 members and their families covered. 

My question to you is, how many total apprentices do you have that 100 were out of work? I'm not being facetious here, I'm asking a genuine question. 

I doubt you're interested but here's a link to our website where you find out more of what we have going on:

https://www.local3ibew.org/

Have a great day, it's beautiful outside!


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

icefalkon said:


> Did you even read what I put above? Did you visit the website of the Joint Industry Board of the Electrical Industry?


 Yes, I did. As I mentioned, no where does it state a guarantee nor the necessary system that would support said guarantee (ie. "If there is no work in the field, apprentices would work at the hall and be paid out of the general fund" for example.)

There is no guarantee of work for apprentices in Local 3, if there is no work, apprentices will sit just like in every other local in the world.



> Why don't you ask one of your Business Representatives if they know anything about Local 3's policy?


 Why would I? First of all it is Saturday. Second of all, YOU made the assertion of this *impossible guarantee*, so I am simply asking YOU to either show it in writing, or admit it's just gossip based on assumption.



> Now, that being said HW, I don't believe ANY answer will be good enough for you.


 If you show me the guarantee that you said is in place, I will admit I was wrong about it. It's as simple as that. So instead of talking around the issue, why don't you just post the bylaws/agreement where this guarantee and it's system are written?? The answer: because there is no such guarantee. 



> At this point, I have done my due diligence with regards to answering your question.


 No, you haven't. You said there was a guarantee, I asked you to show me where in writing, you still haven't shown me. You haven't done anything to prove this guarantee other than link to pages which absolutely don't state any guarantee in any way, shape or form.



> Local 3 IBEW was the first Local in the United States to guarantee apprentices continuous work throughout their tenure.


 If this were true, you would easily be able to show me this. Why haven't you?

Why is it so difficult for you to just show any type of written evidence of this guarantee??


> We also were the first Local in the United States to have a work share program (yes...furlough)


 Yes, and that furlough is written out clearly. You see how that works? Furlough is real. Guarantee of work is not real.

I will await you to not post any proof but continue to lie about the guarantee, since we both know that is what you are going to do.


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

Did you understand the first sentence of the JIB Apprenticeship Page? 

_The Apprentice Program of the Electrical Industry of IBEW Local Union No. 3 includes a *minimum of 35 hours per week on-the-job training for four years* plus the following requirements:[

The only entity empowered to make that statement is the Joint Industry Board's Apprentice Committee. There is your first black and white. I will continue this later._


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

icefalkon said:


> Did you understand the first sentence of the JIB Apprenticeship Page?
> 
> _The Apprentice Program of the Electrical Industry of IBEW Local Union No. 3 includes a *minimum of 35 hours per week on-the-job training for four years* plus the following requirements:[ _


_ I did. That's not in any agreement, it is one person's understanding of it, who then wrote it on a webpage.

My local says the same thing, "Apprentices receive 8 hours classroom training and a minimum of 32 hours OTJ (On The Job) training per week." 

It only means that they normally work 32 hours per week, but they could work more due to overtime.

It is NOT a guarantee that an apprentice will always work. Even now that there is a lot of work in the territory, an apprentice may still sit for a few weeks between jobs depending on available work.

This is getting ridiculous. If there is no work, where is the apprentice going to work?!?!?!?!_


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

HackWork said:


> . Guarantee of work is not real.
> 
> I will await you to not post any proof but continue to lie about the guarantee, since we both know that is what you are going to do.


Lie? You're calling me a liar? You have some balls "brother" and I use that word loosely. 

I will address your issues later.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

icefalkon said:


> Lie? You're calling me a liar?


 At the beginning you might have been mistaken. But then after you went to look for proof and couldn't find any, but still said there was a guarantee, that is when it turned into a lie. And when you posted so-called evidence that proved nothing (such as your page 37 in the agreement) that is when you doubled down on your lie.



> You have some balls "brother" and I use that word loosely.


 I don't consider you my brother. My brother wouldn't lie about something like this.

You see, if I asked about a furlough you would have posted the exact words which clearly explain that there is a furlough and how it works. But you aren't doing that with this guarantee notion of your's, because the words don't exist. You also haven't explain how it works, what would happen if times got slow and there was no where to send apprentices for a period of time. If the guarantee were true, you would know that, just like you know the in's and out's of the furlough system.



> I will address your issues later.


Don't bother.

Either post something directly out of the bylaws/agreement saying that there is a guarantee that apprentices will always work, along with the system in place to ensure that, or don't post anything at all because it won't get you anywhere.


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

HackWork said:


> At the beginning you might have been mistaken. But then after you went to look for proof and couldn't find any, but still said there was a guarantee, that is when it turned into a lie. And when you posted so-called evidence that proved nothing (such as your page 37 in the agreement) that is when you doubled down on your *lie*.
> 
> *You seem to think it's a lie, however, there are a number of Local 3 Apprentices here on this forum that can verify my statement. An officer of the union I spoke to today said, it's clearly on the website for all to see. Mandatory minimum of 35hrs a week for 4yrs. I can put it to you another way, in my 31yrs, in my father's 44years Apprentices have not been a party to the Furlough Program. *
> 
> ...


*I've been civil this entire time, but you know what? You can go f.u.c.k. yourself. Whether I can find another document or not, who the hell are you call me a liar or dismiss anyone on this forum? Apparently, because you're nothing but a jaded asshole who gets his jollies starting trouble...you think that makes you something special. How long are you in the union? Hmm? Did you even go through the Apprenticeship, or were you one of those guys that slither through like a snake? I'm thinking the latter... You're right, you're absolutely no brother of mine. In almost every place you post you start some manner of trouble. 

Let's go back to your Local 102, the one that has approximately 280 Apprentices and that had 100 who were laid off. I'm going to do a little fact checking on that Monday with LU#102's Training Director. So why did you have 100, almost half of your entire Apprentice workforce unemployed? Do you have that answer smartass? Because that would be a gross error in the hiring process of your Local. 

Oh, before you say with an air of superiority tinged with a bit of asshole...no I'm not deflecting anything and I stand by MY statements that here in Local Union #3 IBEW Apprentices are guaranteed work for the 4yrs of their tenure.
By the way, because I can't find what YOU want, even though it's clearly stated on the Apprenticeship page, that doesn't make me liar...that makes me a fool for continuing to argue with you.

So once again, you don't get to dismiss anyone HW. I'm not a liar and frankly don't give a rats ass whether YOU believe me nor not. But anyone, and I mean anyone on this forum from Local 3 can verify my statements. But again, you not believing me doesn't affect me in any way at all. This was fun and distracting but there are actual Brothers and Sisters who have questions about the IBEW here. You are not one of them...*


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

You see, this is where you are full of sh1t:



> When there is NO work, those Apprentices are sent to other shops


If there is *no work*, then there are no shops to send the apprentices to. No where is there a guarantee of work.



> There is always somewhere to send Apprentices because there is always a call for them.


 And the same thing was said for my local, it was unheard of for apprentices to be out of work, up until 2008. Just because there has always been a call for apprentices in your local, *it does not mean that apprentices are guaranteed work by the union.*

This is ludicrous for you to even say it. That's why I questioned it from the second I read it, because it makes absolutely no sense. No labor union guarantees work open ended and without limits like this, there is no reason to do it and no way that it could be guaranteed.

The fact of the matter is that local 3 does not have any guarantee for the apprentices to always work. If times get slow enough, apprentices will sit out. You made lies here that you can't backup. 

This is truly mind-boggling. Every guarantee has to have some type of system or structure in place, especially one of this magnitude that involves 2000 apprentices being guaranteed work without any limit, which constitutes tens of millions of dollars. There has to be something written, spelling out how it would work. Who would pay, who would be responsible to take apprentices, etc. But no, you say that it will work "because there is always a call for apprentices", while co pletely ignoring the fact that there very well might not always be a call for apprentices. 




> who the hell are you to dismiss anyone on this forum?


 You made a really ignorant and outrageous statement. I am the guy asking you to prove it. 

You made a long post attacking me and deflecting from the topic. You and everyone else know that if this was a guarantee, it would be easy for you to copy and paste right out of the bylaws/agreement. Instead, you bastardized words that someone paraphrased on a website.

I will leave it to you, it's your choice whether you show the proof or admit to lying.

And if you want to talk about Local 102, I will be happy to answer all your questions just as soon as you answer the question I have asked you from the beginning, prove the guarantee.


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

_If there is no work, then there are no shops to send the apprentices to. No where is there a guarantee of work._

That may be true in your neck of the woods, but certainly not here in NYC. We have a lock on our Jurisdiction and are making strides to help out other Locals. If there is no work in your Jurisdiction, I would elect different officers, and change the working agreement with the contractors because something is definitely wrong. There is work out there and if your contractors aren't going for it, then the unorganised will take it. That happened to Westchester, NY. What happened...Local 3 had to take them over...because they were falling apart. So if your Local is in bad shape like that...fix your own house before you cry foul of others houses.

_The fact of the matter is that local 3 does not have any guarantee for the apprentices to always work. If times get slow enough, apprentices will sit out. You made lies here that you can't backup. _

We'll see Monday, I will get to the bottom of it. If I am wrong, I will be the first to say so. I did not "bastardise" anything from the Joint Industry Board website, I actually cut and pasted on page 1 of this thread. But I'll put it here once again.

*The Apprentice Program of the Electrical Industry of IBEW Local Union No. 3 includes a minimum of 35 hours per week on-the-job training for four years plus the following requirements:
Mandatory attendance at related instruction for four (4) hours per week;
Classroom instruction in Electrical Theory; and
Three (3) hours per week in college courses leading to an associate degree.*

_You made a really ignorant and outrageous statement. I am the guy asking you to prove it. _

Ignorant? Again, who the f.u.c.k. are you to call anyone ignorant and who the f.u.c.k. made you think in any world YOU get to dismiss anyone? LOL you're a legend in your own mind man, you really are. If I am mistaken about this, I can say with complete actuality that OUR Apprentices are kept working no matter how bad times have been. Including the 1970's, the 1990's, and from 2009-2013 when we had our worst run since the 1970's. During all these times our Apprentices were never, not once, unemployed. Only AJ's were. 


_You made a long post attacking me and deflecting from the topic._

What nonsense are you spouting now? I made it very clear from the beginning of this discourse that I was being civil. YOU initiated this with your aggressive behaviour. Once again, whether YOU believe that Local 3 keeps our Apprentices working or not is not my problem. I didn't attack you, I clearly said I was DONE with being civil to you. Then I gave you back what you spouted. What's the matter, you can call someone a liar but not take his response to that? LOL once again, piece of work...Now you go and spout this bull**** about me deflecting? That's strange, for anyone reading from the beginning, it's clear I was trying to be as clear as possible and as cordial as possible. You took this to the level of unwarranted aggression HW, not I. Now that this is done, I am done. Monday I will speak to the Apprentice Director and the Historian and see what I can find. Being a gentleman and man of my word, I will post the results here no matter what.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Dude, shut the hell up already. You are attacking me, my local, my business agents, yet you won't answer my simple question.

You made a stupid and ignorant statement and when asked to prove it you decided to lie and be deceitful. There is no guarantee of work, nothing you say about NYC or the amount of work you have or the amount of money being spent will change that.

You could have 20 Local 3 guys come here and say the same thing, it won't matter. What you said is the same gossip that you hear ignorant union guys saying, like how you can only run 100' of pipe before needing a pullbox. The different is that once they can't find it in code they admit they are wrong. But you won't do that.

The advertisement on the website for the program saying 35 hours is no different than my local saying a minimum of 32 hours, which I quoted for you. That does NOT comsitute a guarantee of any type.

You keep bringing up how your apprentices have had full employment as if that means something, it doesn't. It is completely meaningless in this discussion about a guarantee of employment. You sound like an old lady with knob and tube wiring saying that her house hasn't burned down yet. Is that a guarantee that it never will? No, just like there is no guarantee that your apprentices will always work. 

I asked from the very beginning, show me where it is written and explain the system that would support such a huge and super expensive guarantee. You still have not done that in all your many posts and 50,000 essays deflecting from those 2 answers.

Don't bother speaking to your historican or your apprenticeship director, nothing you say that they tell you will matter. The ONLY thing that matters is what is written in the bylaws/contract. Nothing else is enforceable or applicable and you know it. If there was a guarantee it would be written there. Show me this guarantee or admit you are full of sh1t.


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