# Into the 2x4 troffer shell... 4000LM output to stick in LED or HPT8...



## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

It's a tough choice. 
You want3000K light. 

You currently have 2x4 troffer shells.

To save energy from whatever you have now, you look at retrofitting. 

So, then, as far as bean counters care, the LED option consumes 3.9kW/100 and supposed to put out 3,990 lm/fixture on day 1

fluorescent option consumes 
4.2kW/100 and supposed to put out 3,670 lm/fixture on day 1

Questions I have: 
best available kit cost for both options?
parts + labor cost? 
out of warranty service cost?
service lead time?
electrical service component lead time and availability 5-10 years later? 

$$$, passing first impression, future repair expenses both for the owner and service installer are important, but $$$ is always the driving force. 

Here, I bring up for comparison two options from Lithonia that results in nearly identical appearance. Using "on the day of lumen" in both instances:

Option 1 LED: 3990 lm, 39W (37-41W) : 102 lm/W 
Dimming: available factory option. 
Pros: 17% higher lm/W. Using initial performance at face value. 

Cons: 6000 LM option is there, but it's an expensive option. 

Public relations department of the client facility gets to say :"we use L E D lighting" 

http://www.acuitybrandslighting.com/library/ll/documents/specsheets/2vtl4r-2x4.pdf

The durability claims are L80/50,000 or L90/60,000 depending on the book. I don't know if there's a production change or just a book change. 

The EldoLED option gives 3990 LM for 39W. (40L LP830 3992 38.98 102)
"(Actual wattage may differ by +/- 5% when operating between 120-277V +/- 10%.)" which maybe a euphemism that power consumption at 120v will be higher. 

*When you're shopping, not only are you soliciting the lowest pricing, but you have to make it conditional to the spec book version used for that serial number range so the above specs apply, not an older version with lower specs which will disqualify them on equivalency. 
*

Option 2 HPT8 fluorescent: $80 at Platt
42W 3670 lm 87 lm/W 
Dimming: fixed out by default. factory option for different BF and step dim. I'm sure you could ask for full range dimming if you really wanted. 

http://www.acuitybrandslighting.com/library/ll/documents/specsheets/2vt8rt-2x4.pdf

Pros: proven long term stability of mercury low pressure discharge technology. 

Available factory option for 1.20 BF ballast, giving you 6,500 lumen @87 lm/W output when paired with 3,100 lm F32T8 lamps. This option isn't much more $$. 

Industry standard ballasts and lamps for speedy, economic service, high service satisfaction and fast response time. 

48" 28W HPT8 fluorescent lamps 

2 x 28W 2,725 lm rated lamps 
QHE2X32T8/UNV ISL-SC ballast
86.3% optics

Then... we know from experience that 95% LLD is fair and proven for HPT8 and L90/60,000 is probably about right for XLL lamps. 

I used 1.00 for LLD and LDD for both. Both LEDs and fluorescent lamps are affected by dust getting inside and both of these designs allow dust entry so I think we can assume it's a wash whichever type you choose.

When all is done and over with, the lamp elements are concealed, so I think they'll look the same to the average observant: 









What's the best price YOU can find for both in >10 quantity...?


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

I see that you selected the fancy dimming ballast for the decorative lighting.
Did you factor any of the lumen management that goes along with that option?

I have noticed a bit of heat associated with Decorative lighting.
Is heat load a factor at all in this study?
Are glass tubes equal to or less than decorative lighting?


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## Helmut (May 7, 2014)

You should hire a lighting guy, and stop pretending to be one.



He asks "electrical service component lead time and availability 5-10 years later? "


Is that not funny or what?


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

jrannis said:


> I see that you selected the *fancy dimming ballast* for the decorative lighting.


Dimming ballast/driver used to drive the low pressure mercury discharge and the solid state LED exciter used to activate the fluorescent phosphor coating are readily available. 

You'll see that LED version ships with factory standard two step. Fancy communications/dimming controls are expensive (relative to base price) options. 

Full range dimming on the LED version is a +$$ option. nLight interface is another line item +$$ option. 

Lighting control interface like DALI is something available regardless of lamp technology and both LEDs and traditional fluorescent lamps can exceed turn down ratios of over 100:1. The availability of offerings are marketing decisions. For example, highest performance engine is not offered with the bare bone interior base vehicles. The actual added cost associated with dimming control isn't high and I believe the primary purpose is to defray the cost of expensive LED technology so that it would appear as value added item to justify the cost. 

I see that many people have never heard of 0-10v dimming and many associate it as something that goes with LEDs, but this dimming control has been around since 1980. I'd say 0-10v enabled fluorescent ballasts were available as special order option for at least 20 years, but they were never really specified in the field. 

Does this answer your question? 



> Did you factor any of the lumen management that goes along with that option?


Rare earth phosphors in T8 do not degrade enough to really matter at the power level they're operated at and maintain over 90% lumen at 50,000 hr + of use, so while it is possible to employ active compensation, the added cost that goes with complexity is probably not worthwhile. 



> I have noticed a bit of heat associated with Decorative lighting.
> Is heat load a factor at all in this study?


See the second question from bottom on left column: 
http://www.acuitybrandslighting.com/library/ll/documents/otherdocuments/vt faqs.pdf

My interpretation is that they're indirectly saying that LEDs are vulnerable to elevated temperatures. 



> Are glass tubes equal to or less than decorative lighting?


I suspect that blue LED powered solid state fluorescent lamps commonly called "LED" sustain more permanent degradation while low pressure mercury discharge traditional fluorescent lamps struggle at very lower ambient temperature giving giving preference for LED for refrigerated cases.


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

Helmut said:


> He asks "electrical service component lead time and availability 5-10 years later? "
> 
> Is that not funny or what?


I apologize if it was not intuitive. There are not many service parts that could become necessary. Those that do are the lens and electrical components including the LED lamp modules, controls and the driver. 

There are some discount store wall pack CFL fixtures that use non-standardized shape or electrical specs. These fixtures have to be scrapped when you have problems. Fluorescent and HID fixtures meant for commercial use almost always have standard electrical parameters and foot print. 

So, if the ballast does fail, just about every hardware store and supply house will have 2 lamp F32T8 ballast and because of the can size standardization, it is a drop-in replacement.

For HIDs, you simply match line voltage, and ANSI codes. 

When it comes to LED boards or LED drivers, there's no standard replacement part. 

There is no significant difference between a 1A 5.8v or a 5v power supply. 

The 5v version is standardized and mass produced to the point you can even buy one at 7-11. If you need a 5.8v 1A supply to repair a piece of equipment, that may be a $195 part + $75 overnight freight to have the process down time to minimum. Now, it's certainly possible that the part may not be ready for immediate shipment and the replacement board can require setting jumpers and modification of the chassis adding significantly to labor cost.


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## Helmut (May 7, 2014)

Electric_Light said:


> If you need a 5.8v 1A supply to repair a piece of equipment, that may be a $195 part + $75 overnight freight to have the process down time to minimum. Now, it's certainly possible that the part may not be ready for immediate shipment and the replacement board can require setting jumpers and modification of the chassis adding significantly to labor cost.



Overnight frieght to fix a troffer light?


You keep getting funnier with every post.

We all know you hate LED's because they scare you, you don't understand them, they take away from your business,and you really don't know much about them. We get that. 

No need to keep posting your bias, along with the nonsense.


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## Helmut (May 7, 2014)

Electric_Light said:


> When it comes to LED boards or LED drivers, there's no standard replacement part.


Yeah, same thing with HVAC and heater parts, and FWIW, vehicles are all different too. . They are all different per manufacturer for a reason.

Maybe you should start a online crusade against standarization of these items too.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

The idea was that you quoted an $80 item from Platt and didnt show pricing for the Light Emitting Decorative retrofit kit.
you mentioned the led kit with the dimming feature. Those are pricey.
as far as the problem with the led driver, the "substatube" or what ever its called uses a standard instant start T8 ballast dont they?

Im all up for an education but, you are an apologist of T-8 lamps.
Maybe explain that to us.


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## Helmut (May 7, 2014)

And here's yet another thought for you Mr Decorative.

Why would you want to standardize things? Why not make them complicated as hell, so only electricians can fix them? Kinda like our tax structure. Make it simple so any one can do it, and millions are out of work. Make it complicated as hell, and millions of people make money for no reason.


Just a thought on standardization of stuff, carry on...


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

Helmut said:


> Yeah, same thing with HVAC and heater parts, and FWIW, vehicles are all different too. . They are all different per manufacturer for a reason.


Those are all good points! Some electric water heaters ship with smart electronic thermostat. There's been a few model changes already and the replacement board is only useful for a handful of models. The board is also quite expensive. So, you would have to overnight the board or the occupant will be without hot water for about a week. 

In comparison, the standard thermostats that piggy back by the heating elements are universal like a 60W light bulb and they're available everywhere and cheaply and they're stock parts on plumber's van.
HO calls a plumber, finds a bad thermostat, it gets replaced from van stock and everyone's happy. 

The funky electronic one will not get fixed in the same trip unless the board just happens to be an available truck stock. 



Helmut said:


> Overnight frieght to fix a troffer light?


Are you going to tell your customer that they're just going to have one of their exam rooms or private offices dark for a week? :blink:



Helmut said:


> And here's yet another thought for you Mr Decorative.
> 
> Why would you want to standardize things?


Troffers, receptacles, j-boxes work good and you can choose from so many different sources, because they're wait for it...*standardized *. 

You carry some 2 or 1 lamp and 4 or 3 lamp T8, 120/277v ballasts and you have 99% of T8 ballast change out needs covered with only two types of ballasts on hand. Thanks to standardization. 



jrannis said:


> The idea was that you quoted an $80 item from Platt and didnt show pricing for the Light Emitting Decorative retrofit kit.


I couldn't find it at Platt. 
I found one at Fastenal but their's or Grainger pricing on the web aren't realistic. 
https://www.fastenal.com/products/details/0774478



> you mentioned the led kit with the dimming feature. Those are pricey.
> as far as the problem with the led driver, the "substatube" or what ever its called uses a standard instant start T8 ballast dont they?
> 
> Im all up for an education but, you are an apologist of T-8 lamps.
> Maybe explain that to us.


The base model for the Lithonia LED appears to be bi-level step dimming. I think it's just a way to add a feature to justify charging higher price over T8. It's like an option that commands a high retail markup, but the added cost is very little in large quantities. If it's not called by specs, this is not awarded a feature benefit.

It would be like making that $200 dealer installed cargo cover option that[nobody was really buying] as factory standard to justify the slight price increase since the last model year to defray the cost of mandatory tweaks necessary for emissions system compliance upgrade. 

The bi-level is an available factory option for the fluorescent version. If the specs call for step-dimming, then you select this option. If not, you don't. 
The choices are L, N, H, and step dim. If you're ordering a truck load, surely the sales rep will accommodate and quote you for full range dimming ballast.

The "drop-in" T8 lamps do not work correctly every time. Existing ballast needs to be compatible with them. 

Cree says their lamps will only work on ballasts that support 48" T8 25W lamps. 

Sylvania advise against using Sylvania drop-ins in dedicated voltage ballasts (those rated 120 only or 277 only). 

Cree one is weird shaped and do not fit physically in some fixtures. 
Philips one can not be used in any dimmable ballast and limited compatibility with some fixed output ballasts.


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