# Residential Troubleshooting - 62 volts with switch off



## doubleoh7

*I went out today to replace a ceiling fan. When I got the ceiling fan down, I checked the conductors and I'm getting 62 volts between the hot and the neutral with the switch off. It is wired as a switch leg and there is only 1 cable entering the fan box. There is a buried j box somewhere. I checked receptacles on the same circuit and I'm getting 125 volts.

I get 62 volts with every circuit turned off excpet for the 1 feeding the fan. I also used an extension cord and meaured to the neutral on another circuit, I still get 62 volts.

Access is not good. There is a second story above the room. The homeowner gave me permission to cut up the floor above the area. They don't mind, it is a POS. It is a 100 plus year old farmhouse that was probably wired in the 30's

Any ideas? ​
*


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## HARRY304E

doubleoh7 said:


> <B>
> I went out today to replace a ceiling fan. When I got the ceiling fan down, I checked the conductors and I'm getting 62 volts between the hot and the neutral with the switch off. It is wired as a switch leg and there is only 1 cable entering the fan box. There is a buried j box somewhere. I checked receptacles on the same circuit and I'm getting 125 volts.​</B>
> 
> *I get 62 volts with every circuit turned off excpet for the 1 feeding the fan. I also used an extension cord and meaured to the neutral on another circuit, I still get 62 volts.*
> 
> *Access is not good. There is a second story above the room. The homeowner gave me permission to cut up the floor above the area. They don't mind, it is a POS. It is a 100 plus year old farmhouse that was probably wired in the 30's*
> 
> *Any ideas? *​


Phatom voltage...are you using a fluke t-5 1000.???

Look here.http://www.electriciantalk.com/f2/phantom-voltage-8522/


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## doubleoh7

I was using an ideal digital meter.


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## walkerj

doubleoh7 said:


> I was using an ideal digital meter.


That is your problem. 
Put a load on the circuit and then use your dmm.

Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


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## MF Dagger

I agree with the phantom voltage call. When i get a weird reading on my digital I have an old Ideal wiggy that I break out.


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## HARRY304E

doubleoh7 said:


> I was using an ideal digital meter.


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## redseal

You have a bad neutral.. No ghost/phantom. Open the meter socket and check line and load. Phantom neutral...lol:thumbup::thumbsup:


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## doubleoh7

redseal said:


> You have a bad neutral.. No ghost/phantom. Open the meter socket and check line and load. Phantom neutral...lol:thumbup::thumbsup:


 

Why do I get 62 volts regardless of what is on or off in the house? Again, the 62 volts is with the switch in the off pos.


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## doubleoh7

double post


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## doubleoh7

Also, I get 125 volts on the other parts of this circuit and on other circuits in the house. With the switch in the on position, I get 125 volts.


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## 3xdad

Let me get this straight. In the switch box, you have power on the single pole switch, then neutral and switch leg go'in up to the fan box and when the switch is off you are reading 62 between the switch leg and the neutral at the fan box?


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## Jlarson

Could it have been a lighted switch and you just didn't notice? If not it was most likely just ghost voltage, ignore it or get a low impedance meter for future situations.


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## MF Dagger

redseal said:


> You have a bad neutral.. No ghost/phantom. Open the meter socket and check line and load. Phantom neutral...lol:thumbup::thumbsup:


You are wrong.


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## doubleoh7

3xdad said:


> Let me get this straight. In the switch box, you have power on the single pole switch, then neutral and switch leg go'in up to the fan box and when the switch is off you are reading 62 between the switch leg and the neutral at the fan box?


 

There is only a 12/2 in the switch box. And only a 12/2 in the fan box. Somewhere between, there is a buried junction box. I get 62 volts between the grounded and ungrounded conductors at the fan box with the switch off. I also used an extension cord and measure from the grounded (neutral) on the extension cord to the load side of the switch with the switch off, I get 62 volts.


I am starting to think I was getting goblin voltage on my DMM and made myself look like a fool in front of my customer.


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## doubleoh7

Jlarson said:


> Could it have been a lighted switch and you just didn't notice? If not it was most likely just ghost voltage, ignore it or get a low impedance meter for future situations.


 

No, it was not a lighted switch, and there is no neutral in the switch box.

Got a low impedance meter that you recomend?


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## mattsilkwood

Lighted switch or a dimmer?


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## doubleoh7

mattsilkwood said:


> Lighted switch or a dimmer?


 
No, just a single pole switch with 1 12/2 in the box as a switch leg.


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## Jlarson

doubleoh7 said:


> No, it was not a lighted switch, and there is no neutral in the switch box.


Don't need one. Most lighted switches put the lamp in series with the load when you turn it off, meaning you'll read some voltage downstream of one in the off position. 


I'm liking the Fluke T+ pro as a low impedance tester, you could also go old school and get a solenoid tester.


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## RIVETER

Until now I have never heard of the concepts of "phantom" or "ghost" voltage. I am not a residential person but still, why would a person call a voltage that was sent intentionally to a house, a "phantom" voltage. If you knew that the voltage was 125v, why wouldn't you automatically think about a missing connection that involves the reference potential?


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## doubleoh7

Jlarson said:


> Don't need one. Most lighted switches put the lamp in series with the load when you turn it off, meaning you'll read some voltage downstream of one in the off position.
> 
> 
> I'm liking the Fluke T+ pro as a low impedance tester, you could also go old school and get a solenoid tester.


 
I had a wiggie in the trailer, and did not get it out.:laughing: What a dummy.


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## doubleoh7

RIVETER said:


> Until now I have never heard of the concepts of "phantom" or "ghost" voltage. I am not a residential person but still, why would a person call a voltage that was sent intentionally to a house, a "phantom" voltage. If you knew that the voltage was 125v, why wouldn't you automatically think about a missing connection that involves the reference potential?


 
Riveter, those are some fancy words.


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## nitro71

I saw this a while back. Same screwed up situation. Burried boxes. Stuff wired by crack heads. I put the light on and it works. Time to get outa there!


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## Rudeboy

Jlarson said:


> Most lighted switches put the lamp in series with the load when you turn it off, meaning you'll read some voltage downstream of one in the off position.


Had a fun one the other day. Installed a lighted switch for a cfl lamp based two pin style keyless lamp holder.

Damn lamp flickers every 10 seconds or so.

Left it that way too... but now I know.


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## macmikeman

I almost always pull out my knopp before taking out a digital multimeter when troubleshooting a residence wiring problem. Go near machinery and the reverse is true. Right tool for the job at hand. Second most important "tool" for troubleshooting voltage is an extension cord plugged into another source so you can test the problem conductors against the other source voltages. Example- plug the cord into a working outlet on say the laundry circuit. Now try reading your voltage at the light from the fixture hot to the cord neutral. Then try reading the extension cord hot against the neutral at the light fixture. By the way, this doesn't go well if you plug into a gfi protected outlet, so don't. If one of your conductors going to the light is not functioning properly you will be able to read it this way. Usually you don't even have to resort to this method if there is a good equipment ground, you can just use the wiggy to test the hot against the neutral and the ground conductor. That same wiggy on a conveyor system might bump the machine however so that is where you should use the right impedence meter to prevent that.


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## Jlarson

Rudeboy said:


> Had a fun one the other day. Installed a lighted switch for a cfl lamp based two pin style keyless lamp holder.
> 
> Damn lamp flickers every 10 seconds or so.


I had a hotel room with that going on once. It was faint though, you could only really see it with the other lights off at night as you were trying to sleep.


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## doubleoh7

Problem solved, it was goblin voltage! The customer only got billed for the time and material for the actual fan install.


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## 3xdad

Nice! i was hoping you didn't have to rip up the floor.

Dust off and on to the next one. :thumbsup:


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## frank

Nope. Not solved. Just left for the next bloke. And anyway. I can't sleep at nights trying to work this one out. Phantom voltages - don't believe such things exist. Electricity is Physics not Psychics. With switch in the off position you must have the potential reading neutral to 'something'. Things that come to mind include a shared neutral from an ajacent live that should be segregated. Polarity is incorrect and there is low insulation value to ground also which would give the results you have. Loosing half the line voltage is also equivalent to the volt drop through a filament lamp. But whatever the problem there must be no measured voltage between live and neutral with the switch off.


Frank


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## Rudeboy

:laughing:

Next week the same customer is gonna call OO7 with a GFCI that's "nuisance tripping."


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## Jlarson

frank said:


> Nope. Not solved. Just left for the next bloke. And anyway. I can't sleep at nights trying to work this one out. Phantom voltages - don't believe such things exist. Electricity is Physics not Psychics. With switch in the off position you must have the potential reading neutral to 'something'. Things that come to mind include a shared neutral from an ajacent live that should be segregated. Polarity is incorrect and there is low insulation value to ground also which would give the results you have. Loosing half the line voltage is also equivalent to the volt drop through a filament lamp. But whatever the problem there must be no measured voltage between live and neutral with the switch off.


Phantom, ghost, stray voltage or whatever you wanna call it is very real. 

It's basically just capacitive coupling between conductors or in this case possibly the switch contacts, a typical DMM has a high impedance on it's inputs and doesn't present enough of a load to discharge it, a solenoid tester (wiggy) or a low impedance digital meter or tester does.


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## frank

Capacitive/Inductive coupling are not unknown but are problems not met every day. At this end we mostly short out such circutry via grounding or resistive loads. Doubleoh says that he used a seperate neutral and non integral neutral to test the line for voltage. This would negate any capacitve product. But I am willing to live and learn. As an apprentice it took me ages to figure out why up 20% of mains voltage could appear between earth (ground) and neutral when they were supposedly at the saame potential. This may turn out to be another of those learing curves

Frank


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## rolzz

Touch neutral to the switch leg and see how your 62 volt phantom reacts


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## 76nemo

It won't react. Sorry Frank. This is why dual impedance meters are on the market. As far as DMM's go, Fluke's 114, 116, and 117 incorporate that. In the line of "testers", Milwaukee's new open jaw tester also incorporates it.

I also find it amazing someone said this is not seen much anywhere else besides res. It also amazes me it took this long for the larger companies to incorporate dual impedance inputs:001_huh:


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## rolzz

That would be my point, if that were the case. Refeed,new switch leg. Be sure of feed location and connections. I believe there was a buried box? Maybe replaced ceiling box with fan box moved slightly out from joist leaving feed and switch leg to short. Is the wire at the fan of the same period as the switching location. Or maybe not..


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## 76nemo

rolzz said:


> That would be my point, if that were the case. Refeed,new switch leg. Be sure of feed location and connections. I believe there was a buried box? Maybe replaced ceiling box with fan box moved slightly out from joist leaving feed and switch leg to short. Is the wire at the fan of the same period as the switching location. Or maybe not..


 
Are you replying to my post?:001_huh: All that when you could of just moved a thumb dial switch or used the right tool in the first place?????

Sorry, not a big fan of "testers".


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## rolzz

I'm sorry, thought there was a buried box, thought that could be work, turn a dial then


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## 76nemo

rolzz said:


> I'm sorry, thought there was a buried box, thought that could be work, turn a dial then


No biggee, just remember this conversation. It's not the first time it's been brought up and it won't be the last. There's several ways around it, but I'd suggest a low impedance tester or a dual impedance input DMM as your next tool. You will run across it, and quite frankly, I am surprised you have not come across it before now

If you want a cheaper option than a DMM, look at Milwaukee's open jaw tester or maybe something like the T+Pro from Fluke. Knopp is still manufacturing a solenoid tester, but I don't have a footing to stand on when it comes to an opinion of those. Fluke also has an appendage to most any high impedance DMM sold under the label of SV225:

http://www.fluke.com/fluke/usen/Acc...argers-and-Adapters/SV225-10PAK.htm?PID=56697


Last I knew Grainger still sold them as individual pieces instead of a ten packs........


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## rolzz

Just curious is there a buried j box? I agree on the right tool, I wouldn't start troubleshooting an area of a circuit that I am hired to do work in and leave it in uncertain condition. Not that I haven't but today I wouldn't.


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## 76nemo

rolzz said:


> Just curious is there a buried j box? I agree on the right tool, I wouldn't start troubleshooting an area of a circuit that I am hired to do work in and leave it in uncertain condition. Not that I haven't but today I wouldn't.


 
So if you saw 62V's, you'd stay there until the homeowners were almost ready for bed, and return the next day??????

Sorry partner, forget about the magic treasure box buried in the forest


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## sparkymcwiresalot

It's obviously pfm.


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## 76nemo

sparkymcwiresalot said:


> It's obviously pfm.


 
I'm well informed with PWM, what is pfm??????


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## sparkymcwiresalot

Pure effin magic


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## 76nemo

sparkymcwiresalot said:


> Pure effin magic


 
I had guessed the "f" abbreviation was one we were asked not to use. I assumed "m" was for meter

So, you carry a low impedance tester or a dual impedance input DMM?


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## sparkymcwiresalot

I got a couple of flukes, I don't know if they are low impedance or not. One is a 117 and the other is a clamp on, they do what I need to do. I do all industrial control work these days so I don't have to mess with problems like these anymore. When I did residential if I had some weird stuff like that, I would spend minimal time trying to figure it out and just run a new wire.


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## 76nemo

sparkymcwiresalot said:


> I got a couple of flukes, I don't know if they are low impedance or not. One is a 117 and the other is a clamp on, they do what I need to do. I do all industrial control work these days so I don't have to mess with problems like these anymore. When I did residential if I had some weird stuff like that, I would spend minimal time trying to figure it out and just run a new wire.


 
The 117 has a Low-Z function specifically for that...........


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## 76nemo

What did you think the Low-Z function was for?:blink:


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## Jlarson

sparkymcwiresalot said:


> I do all industrial control work these days so I don't have to mess with problems like these anymore.


You must not do as much or as weird of controls as I do. I use my low impedance meters and testers all the time.


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## sparkymcwiresalot

Yeah I do conveyor systems, pretty simple stuff. All new installs with only occasional tie ins to old stuff.


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## 76nemo

There's people that think open ended circuits are virgin if left w/o a load. What do you think a meter is? It is exactly that, and the reason behind dual-impendance DMM's or low-impedance testers...........


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## Jlarson

sparkymcwiresalot said:


> Yeah I do conveyor systems, pretty simple stuff. All new installs with only occasional tie ins to old stuff.


I seem to get lots of long control conduit runs with lots of wire packed in or really odd relay systems and run across ghost voltage a lot. The Low Z function on my 289 gets lots of use.


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## sparkymcwiresalot

If you're working on systems with 110 controls I could see where that would be more of an issue, especially if there are aux contacts for disconnects running with the 480. For what I do there just is no reason to invest in an expensive process meter. Simple 24 volt inputs and outputs are pretty straight forward.


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## 76nemo

sparkymcwiresalot said:


> If you're working on systems with 110 controls I could see where that would be more of an issue, especially if there are aux contacts for disconnects running with the 480. For what I do there just is no reason to invest in an expensive process meter. Simple 24 volt inputs and outputs are pretty straight forward.


 
Expensive? The new Milwaukee or the T+Pro is about a $110. Whatchu talking about Whillis with an expensive process meter???????????? Shoot, the Fluke 116 which I prefer is only a $140, didn't say you needed a 289:001_huh:


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## sparkymcwiresalot

I haven't priced them for years. I know some of calibrated ones with the extra functions I don't ever use are pricey.


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## 76nemo

sparkymcwiresalot said:


> I haven't priced them for years. I know some of calibrated ones with the extra functions I don't ever use are pricey.


 
The 289 isn't even marketed as a process meter. The 787, 789, 771-3 is labeled as process. I find it hard to believe you've never run into this before, but who am I to say???????


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## Jlarson

sparkymcwiresalot said:


> If you're working on systems with 110 controls I could see where that would be more of an issue, especially if there are aux contacts for disconnects running with the 480. For what I do there just is no reason to invest in an expensive process meter. Simple 24 volt inputs and outputs are pretty straight forward.


If you have a 117 you are good to go. The Low Z function on there is I think something like 3 K ohms up to a few hundred K ohms at max input voltage.


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## 76nemo

Jlarson said:


> If you have a 117 you are good to go. The Low Z function on there is I think something like 3 K ohms up to a few hundred K ohms at max input voltage.


 
On the 117, the input is 3K with Low-Z, I'm just surprised he's never had to utilize it:blink:


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## sparkymcwiresalot

I'm showing my ignorance on fluke meters I guess. I have what I need and it hasn't ever been an issue for anything I do. My company sent me to a class for the dtx 9000 meter or something like that. It's a cable analyzer, we just wanted to be able to tell the engineers to fix their code it's not a cable issue.


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## 76nemo

sparkymcwiresalot said:


> I'm showing my ignorance on fluke meters I guess. I have what I need and it hasn't ever been an issue for anything I do. My company sent me to a class for the dtx 9000 meter or something like that. It's a cable analyzer, we just wanted to be able to tell the engineers to fix their code it's not a cable issue.


 
Don't get off on the wrong foot mcwiresalot. If anything, and nothing else but anything, you now know what the Low-Z selection is for. There's no need to apologize, if that was the case I'd be apologizing all the time:001_huh:

We all wear different pants:thumbsup:


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## Jlarson

Nemo is just a fluke nut. It's kinda a religion to him :lol:


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## 76nemo

Jlarson said:


> Nemo is just a fluke nut. It's kinda a religion to him :lol:


 
Religion like off hour times?:laughing:

There's many more on the top shelf besides them partner


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## steelersman

doubleoh7 said:


> I am starting to think I was getting goblin voltage.


LMMFAO!! You just made my week with that term. That's some funny stuff there buddy.......:yes:


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## PapaClaude

doubleoh7 said:


> Problem solved, it was goblin voltage! The customer only got billed for the time and material for the actual fan install.


Thanks so much. I had exactly the same thing happen, so I checked for current. 0. Tried touching the cable ends, nothing. So I just ignored it.


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