# Preferred Load Center Brand



## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

Well, after seeing a discussion of this subject in ShockDoc's fixing stupid thread, I thought we could consolidate it into one thread. I am going to try adding a poll to this thread, but it has been a really long time since I have done it, so hopefully I am smart enough to figure it out :whistling2:.

So, what's your preference? Siemens? Square D QO? Murray? CH CH? CH BR? Copper Buss only? Mix? 

I'll start off with myself. The company has been selling predominantly QO since it was introduced since my Grandfather tested a bunch and it was the breaker that tripped the closest to a fuse, and it has just been habit. In a couple flips and home inspection occasions, we have installed Homeline panels, just to make it "value engineered". I didn't mind it, but the aluminum buss just kinda irks me a little bit. I have no problem with aluminium feeders/service conductors but I have swapped out quite a few 80's vintage ITE panels with burned up buss, and that makes me nervous. If I saw paperwork that showed the aluminium variety was changed since then, it would probably make me feel more comfortable with it. 

Also wanted to add that I just about swore off QO in residential because of how much suck the AFCIs are, but I have hope with the new plug on CAFI breakers :thumbup:. Really excited to try those out! 

I don't think I have ever installed a brand new Siemens loadcenter. I have put in a decent amount of Siemens Panelboards, but I have only put in 1 used Siemens loadcenter, and that was in our shop since it was laying around. :laughing:


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## xaH (Jun 21, 2013)

No options for Wadsworth, Colt, Zinsco, FPE, Trumbull, General Switch, Frank Adams, or Pushmatic? :blink:


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

xaH said:


> No options for Wadsworth, Colt, Zinsco, FPE, Trumbull, General Switch, Frank Adams, or Pushmatic? :blink:


Or Federal Pacific!!! Of all the nerve!!!


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## HawkShock (Nov 27, 2012)

wendon said:


> Or Federal Pacific!!! Of all the nerve!!!


Square D Trilliant? Perfect for the modern home, 100% recycled.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

xaH said:


> No options for Wadsworth, Colt, Zinsco, FPE, Trumbull, General Switch, Frank Adams, or Pushmatic? :blink:


Quiet you, don't make me get the hose.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Going_Commando said:


> Well, after seeing a discussion of this subject in ShockDoc's fixing stupid thread, I thought we could consolidate it into one thread. I am going to try adding a poll to this thread, but it has been a really long time since I have done it, so hopefully I am smart enough to figure it out :whistling2:.
> 
> So, what's your preference? Siemens? Square D QO? Murray? CH CH? CH BR? Copper Buss only? Mix?
> 
> ...


Siemens and Murray Are my favorites.


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## xaH (Jun 21, 2013)

HawkShock said:


> Square D Trilliant? Perfect for the modern home, 100% recycled.


I completely forgot about Trilliant.


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## HawkShock (Nov 27, 2012)

xaH said:


> I completely forgot about Trilliant.


Plus it matches your white Iphone. Oh yeah, technology eludes you.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Siemens has quickly become my favorite. Cutler Hammer second. I don't buy into the square D over hype anymore. QO's connection to the buss seems to be getting crappier and crappier.


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## electro916 (Jan 16, 2009)

I have a few NOS trilliant breakers in my shop....I never used them I wonder what the supply/demand is for them.


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## electro916 (Jan 16, 2009)

Jlarson said:


> Siemens has quickly become my favorite. Cutler Hammer second. I don't buy into the square D over hype anymore. QO's connection to the buss seems to be getting crappier and crappier.


That's why I actually rather homeline over QO I like the way the homeline breakers bite onto the buss.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

electro916 said:


> That's why I actually rather homeline over QO I like the way the homeline breakers bite onto the buss.


Yeah, the homelines you have to lean on sometimes to get them to seat. QO will pop off first time you flip the handle.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

Jlarson said:


> Siemens has quickly become my favorite. Cutler Hammer second. I don't buy into the square D over hype anymore. QO's connection to the buss seems to be getting crappier and crappier.


I've been known to pinch the jaws on loose QO breakers with my linemans to tighten them up, but it is pretty rare :whistling2:. The biggest problem I have encountered is the length of their AFCI breakers. You get some wicked leverage if you try to tighten down the lugs when the breaker is attached to the buss, and the breaker will pop right off.


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## electro916 (Jan 16, 2009)

Jlarson said:


> Yeah, the homelines you have to lean on sometimes to get them to seat. QO will pop off first time you flip the handle.


I've had a few double poles that almost needed a dead blow hammer to get seated.


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

electro916 said:


> That's why I actually rather homeline over QO *I like the way the homeline breakers bite onto the buss.*





Jlarson said:


> Yeah, the homelines you have to lean on sometimes to get them to seat. QO will pop off first time you flip the handle.


And the FACT that the Homeline breakers use the EXACT same internals as QO (but without the Visi-Trip) makes them work just as well as the overpriced, over-hyped QO line. 

Voted Homeline. Now, if only they would do a copper buss setup...:whistling2::thumbup:


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

mxslick said:


> And the FACT that the Homeline breakers use the EXACT same internals as QO (but without the Visi-Trip) makes them work just as well as the overpriced, over-hyped QO line.
> 
> Voted Homeline. *Now, if only they would do a copper buss setup*...:whistling2::thumbup:


That would make me one happy camper. I am starting to wonder if it is the same aluminum used in the bus bars as it was in the 70s and 80s in the ITE and Murray panels though. I wish I could see some proof that it is tougher stuff, though I still really like looking into a panel and seeing copper buss bars, even if they are fed with AL wire.


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

Going_Commando said:


> That would make me one happy camper. *I am starting to wonder if it is the same aluminum used in the bus bars as it was in the 70s and 80s in the ITE and Murray panels though.* I wish I could see some proof that it is tougher stuff, though I still really like looking into a panel and seeing copper buss bars, even if they are fed with AL wire.


Thought I'm not a metallurgist (but I play one on TV), my impression is that it is a totally different alloy than the old ITE/Murray stuff. 

It looks a bit thicker, and the breaker clips don't seem to "scar" the stabs like the old stuff did.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

mxslick said:


> Thought I'm not a metallurgist (but I play one on TV), my impression is that it is a totally different alloy than the old ITE/Murray stuff.
> 
> It looks a bit thicker, and the breaker clips don't seem to "scar" the stabs like the old stuff did.


You are probably right. Using homeliness instead of QO could definitely boost the profit margin some, while having the same trip characteristics as the QO. I don't think commercial occupancies would be too happy seeing "homeliness" labels in their panels thou.


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## LATTC (Feb 12, 2012)

wtf, why is Square D leading?


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Homeline for most low cost jobs, but Square D QO all the way for those high end ones.:thumbup:


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

I posted this in another thread but I think it fits hear best (note QO and CH-CH surpass all the others significantly): 



*For those wondering:

*(From personal experience and knowing people in the field of testing; my opinions on quality and reliability for resi panels and breakers sold today):


Resi Breakers worst to best:

1. GE THQL/THQP (due to quality control)

2. Eaton Cutler-Hammer BR series

3. Siemens and Murray (both brands have same internals)

4. Square D Homeline (Guts are same to QO, but uses a 1inch pinch format)

5. Eaton Cutler-Hammer CH series

6. Square D QO


Resi Panel board tubs/interiors worst to best (3,4 and 5 are nearly identical) :

1. Murray

2. GE (good design, but soft metal on screws and buss, brittle plastic)

3. Square D Homeline (thin plastic on interior, but tub is very solid)

4. Siemens Aluminum Buss 

5. Eaton Cutler-Hammer BR series

6. Siemens Copper Buss

7. Square D QO

8. Eaton Cutler-Hammer CH series


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

LATTC said:


> wtf, why is Square D leading?


Because it's the best. Any other questions?:laughing::laughing:


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## jw0445 (Oct 9, 2009)

electro916 said:


> I have a few NOS trilliant breakers in my shop....I never used them I wonder what the supply/demand is for them.


I only ever saw them in modular houses. Made more sense to change it out if you had to install more than a couple circuits. Breakers as I remember were very expensive like $60 for a single 20.


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## 8V71 (Dec 23, 2011)

I'm in the market for a panel so my comments are just from recent internet searches/pics. I find it odd that Square-D has their neutral and ground connections grouped together at the top. I like what I'm seeing with the Cutler Hammer CH and I'm impressed with Siemens and their beefy copper bus bar.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

8V71 said:


> I'm in the market for a panel so my comments are just from recent internet searches/pics. I find it odd that Square-D has their neutral and ground connections grouped together at the top. I like what I'm seeing with the Cutler Hammer CH and I'm impressed with Siemens and their beefy copper bus bar.


I see advantages both ways. Actually, I don't care for the neutral and ground bars down the side. Everything needs to be 4-wire after the service disconnect so where do you add the ground bars? It's a pain to add a circuit and try to get your neutral in the bar when it's hidden under the wires coming off the breakers. It's bad enough to try to sneak a ground wire back in there. JMHO.


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## denny3992 (Jul 12, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> Siemens has quickly become my favorite. Cutler Hammer second. I don't buy into the square D over hype anymore. QO's connection to the buss seems to be getting crappier and crappier.


I agree


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## ampman (Apr 2, 2009)

FPE is my favorite because i make so much changing them out


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

8V71 said:


> I'm in the market for a panel so my comments are just from recent internet searches/pics. I find it odd that Square-D has their neutral and ground connections grouped together at the top. I like what I'm seeing with the Cutler Hammer CH and I'm impressed with Siemens and their beefy copper bus bar.


 
The groped ground/noodle bar is perfect for service upgrades when the grounds are to short. Plus like the comment above its easier to add a ground bar. Although I will admit in new installs with AFCIs full length bars have their place; luckily square D QO and Cutler Hammer CH has come out with plug on AFCIs.:thumbup:


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Jlarson said:


> Siemens has quickly become my favorite. Cutler Hammer second. I don't buy into the square D over hype anymore. QO's connection to the buss seems to be getting crappier and crappier.


 
Hows so? The design looks the same:001_huh:


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## denny3992 (Jul 12, 2010)

Lets pool money and make the best panel

Copper buss, visitrip,bolton(like pushmatic)
Afci neutral clip to buss 

Any additions?


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## 8V71 (Dec 23, 2011)

meadow said:


> The groped ground/noodle bar is perfect for service upgrades when the grounds are to short. Plus like the comment above its easier to add a ground bar.


I remember reading about the short neutral/grounds benefit for upgrades in a thread not too long ago. I have never installed a Square D or added a circuit so these things didn't occur to me but I can see it now.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

8V71 said:


> I remember reading about the short neutral/grounds benefit for upgrades in a thread not too long ago. I have never installed a Square D or added a circuit so these things didn't occur to me but I can see it now.


When you do service upgrades every day it makes all the difference.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

meadow said:


> When you do service upgrades every day it makes all the difference.


They definitely do come in handy when you are dealing with panel change outs. A lot of times you only have to butt splice a few ungrounded conductors to make everything reach, especially when the original hacktrician ran a bunch of circuits into the sides of the panel and left 6" of wire inside the panel. If they had just run it in the top it would make the next guys job easier, looks neater and doesn't take any more time to do.


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## Travelboysteve (Aug 13, 2013)

xaH said:


> No options for Wadsworth, Colt, Zinsco, FPE, Trumbull, General Switch, Frank Adams, or Pushmatic? :blink:



I always enjoyed telling my old customers they had "BullDogs"

Ahhhh, the good old days


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Its just a loadcenter and most of them are going to be stuffed with Romex so why get all snooty and think using a QO loadcenter is going to make a difference.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

electro916 said:


> I have a few NOS trilliant breakers in my shop....I never used them I wonder what the supply/demand is for them.


I get about $65 buck a breaker for them. Zog would kill me.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

meadow said:


> I posted this in another thread but I think it fits hear best (note QO and CH-CH surpass all the others significantly):
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You forgot to state that this is your opinion only and not a very good one.


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

I can't really vote on this because I can't choose just one. 

I like the cost of the Homeline panels and the way the breakers bite on to the buss but I hate those stupid little pieces of ground buss we get here in Canada and the cover never seems to fit just right without some persuasion.

I like using Siemens panels and breakers for most of my residential stuff ( which is minimal ) but its more expensive than homeline and I think the screws on the neutral bars are getting softer and softer.......different type of alloy???? I still used Siemens in my own home.

For ALL of my commercial work......I use Square D bolt on (QOB ??) unless the job has been spec'd by the engineer for something different.


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## VTL Sparky (Aug 14, 2013)

Homeline if it's a new installation, otherwise I try to match existing.


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## coil power (Nov 17, 2011)

CH, CH, just what I'm use to.


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## 3D Electric (Mar 24, 2013)

Siemens panels are what we prefer, the Cutler BR can is flimsy, the QO is way overpriced and I hate the neutral bus bar setup. The HO is ok, would use in a pinch if necessary. The copper bus Siemens is one of the best on the market, but it is all personal preference. Pretty much whatever tickles your pickle! Lol


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

3D Electric said:


> Siemens panels are what we prefer, the Cutler BR can is flimsy, the QO is way overpriced and I hate the neutral bus bar setup. The HO is ok, would use in a pinch if necessary. The copper bus Siemens is one of the best on the market, but it is all personal preference. Pretty much whatever tickles your pickle! Lol


 i havent found one yet that tickles my pickle, except that one time, wearin wet, sweaty shorts, and somethin, well never mind!:whistling2::laughing:


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## btharmy (Jan 17, 2009)

Murray of course. With a lifetime breaker guarantee you can't go wrong. Can you?











I took this pic today at a customer's home. I had not noticed one before. Anybody else see this before?


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

hey all you midwest guys, does anybody around here even nsell murray? ive worked on several old ones, but never have seen a new one:001_huh:


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## 3D Electric (Mar 24, 2013)

papaotis said:


> hey all you midwest guys, does anybody around here even nsell murray? ive worked on several old ones, but never have seen a new one:001_huh:


You can buy Murray in Wichita at Midwest electrical supply. Same maker as Siemens.


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