# High Electrcity Bill In Customers Home



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Welcome to the forum. 

So did the old place have the same heating system- gas vs electric, sq,ft, water heaters etc. How much higher is it?

It certainly can be a wire in the earth shorting out but not enough to blow the overcurrent protective device.


----------



## MorbesElectric (Mar 2, 2021)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Welcome to the forum.
> 
> So did the old place have the same heating system- gas vs electric, sq,ft, water heaters etc. How much higher is it?
> 
> It certainly can be a wire in the earth shorting out but not enough to blow the overcurrent protective device.



Good morning Dennis, we live out here in Mexico so these homes aren't built the same as out there. They don't have heating systems so they need to rely on a space heater but according to them they don't use it anymore than they did at their old place. The water heater they have installed is a gas water heater. They're old bill used to be on average 350KWh and their new bill just came in and it was 800KWh


----------



## canbug (Dec 31, 2015)

Isn't 2Kwh like 10-15 cents. Need to check what the draw is for a couple of days, is this a bigger older home? What does a typical day look like, does it have a shop and the hubby is out there welding for a couple of hours.
A lot of questions and hard to get paid for unless you find something major.

Tim.


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Could someone be stealing their power somehow?


----------



## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

MorbesElectric said:


> Good morning ET community, so I got a call today from a customer stating that their power bill is too HIGH. They just moved in to this new place so they don't know why it's going up because they didn't have this issue before in their old place. They've checked their meter before going to bed and in the morning when they check again they're power usage has went up by 2KWh even though everything is off except the normal appliances (microwave, fridge, electronics, etc.) I told them that it could be a faulty connection somewhere in their system but I have not had a service call with this issue before. So before I go down there and start checking things out and opening electrical boxes. Do you have any other suggestions?


2KW is easily believable. Fridge, freezer, HWT, ....lots of loads don't go off because you shut the lights off. 

Please fill out your profile.


----------



## MorbesElectric (Mar 2, 2021)

canbug said:


> Isn't 2Kwh like 10-15 cents. Need to check what the draw is for a couple of days, is this a bigger older home? What does a typical day look like, does it have a shop and the hubby is out there welding for a couple of hours.
> A lot of questions and hard to get paid for unless you find something major.
> 
> Tim.



Ah those are actually good questions to ask that I did not ask so I'll have to give them a call back to ask more thorough questions so I dont waste their time nor mine. Although 2KWh is not much it does add up because in 30 days those meaningless 2KWh add up to 60KWh for doing nothing. And out here in Mexico if we go over 250KWh per month for a 6 month period we get put on a "higher tier" meaning they charge us more per KWh since we're some type of high "risk".


----------



## MorbesElectric (Mar 2, 2021)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Could someone be stealing their power somehow?



Yeah that could be a possibility as well that I've thought off but I haven't seen it myself so I'm not sure 🤔


----------



## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

Maybe that meter was not read in a long time and since there's now a new account out there, they went out and read it. I'd want to see what the next bill is before making any assumptions.
2kWh is not much power.
Here that's $0.20 worth of power.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

2 kWh is 2 100 watt bulbs on ten hours. 1st seemingly innocent culprit is the refrigerator. A bad seal or a dirty condenser coil or a stuck defrost timer. Frost-free refrigerator/freezer actually heats itself up at least 1x a day to melt any accumulated frost where it drains out the bottom. But 2 kW is not a lot, it's actually pretty low for an 8-hour overnight reading.


----------



## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Could someone be stealing their power somehow?


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

five.five-six said:


>



I didn't view it now but I have seen all of it.. Great show


----------



## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

She gives me the hornies.


----------



## dspiffy (Nov 25, 2013)

I'd show up with an amp meter. Turn everything off in the home, see what's still drawing current.


----------



## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

Turn all handles off and see if meter is moving. Turn on handles one at a time and back off to see what each does and how much it draws. If you spot any anomalies check them out.


----------



## farmantenna (Nov 22, 2012)

Is it a single family house separate from all other buildings? If not, is their meter reading their unit? I have seen incorrectly labelled meters.


----------



## MorbesElectric (Mar 2, 2021)

dspiffy said:


> I'd show up with an amp meter. Turn everything off in the home, see what's still drawing current.



Thank you! I will look into getting a amp meter asap!


----------



## MorbesElectric (Mar 2, 2021)

farmantenna said:


> Is it a single family house separate from all other buildings? If not, is their meter reading their unit? I have seen incorrectly labelled meters.


It is a single family home so it shouldn't be tied to anything other than that home. I actually hear about that often out here people getting mixed up with meters cus that landlord told them that is their meter


----------



## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

dspiffy said:


> I'd show up with an amp meter. Turn everything off in the home, see what's still drawing current.


That was my first thought. An amp probe would give you a reading of each circuit at that particular moment but would not monitor usage over a span of time. It would be best if you had something like an energy monitor to get a real good look at what was happening. I'm not sure how accurate a cheap one would be but you can get them for less than $200 that seem to work well.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Yea energy monitor? OP doesn't have an amprobe. OP needs to see total monthly usage and determine is that out of line with what is "normal" Because rates vary between different utilities and just because a customer complains of a high electric bill doesn't mean that it's out of line with reality. Maybe their last residence was being supplemented by others and they're used to a 40 dollar bill when they were using 120 dollars worth all along. 
Being Mexico, there could easily be a secret "tap" the customer is unaware of, there could be shoddy leaking wiring, but this is all really about the OP being experienced enough to know how to do some sleuthing. We can't solve a mystery when we have access to none of the clues. We can't guess the butler did it without even knowing if there's a butler. "My customer has a high electric bill" is a really chit way to state a problem. 
So best advice is OP charge the customer for every moment of time spent figuring out the problem and if there even is a problem. Time spent figuring a mystery is billable.


----------



## Compare Power Companies (Mar 21, 2021)

2 kws over an 8 hour period isn't anything to be concerned about. All homes have a base load, made up of appliances on doing what they are supposed to do, such as fridges, freezers, clocks, appliances on standby, and now anything charging such as phones or tablets. 2 kws over 8 hours is 250 watts average.
For most homes the biggest loads are hot water and heating/cooling, drying ( if necessary) , dehumidifying, lighting.
Depending on the metering technology, it is possible to ask their utility provider for their half hour data, so that they can see where they use power,


----------



## Sparky4021 (Mar 10, 2021)

You can also check the load balance on the panel. If most of their appliances and space heaters are on one leg it will drive up the usage. I had one customer that had this problem, it took a long long time to figure out what the problem was. Using an energy monitor is how I finally figured it out.


----------



## Malywr (Jan 23, 2018)

MorbesElectric said:


> Thank you! I will look into getting a amp meter asap!


OP is electrician doing service calls and don’t have basic amp meter.....?


----------



## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

Malywr said:


> OP is electrician doing service calls and don’t have basic amp meter.....?


Your profile is not filled out either and if one was to skim your discussions they might think the same about you.


----------



## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

Some other basics to check out.
1. Well pump, if waterleak it will keep running.
2. Sump pump. Same thing as water pump
3. Sewer pump. They may not of had one before.

Cowboy


----------



## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

just the cowboy said:


> Some other basics to check out.
> 1. Well pump, if waterleak it will keep running.
> 2. Sump pump. Same thing as water pump
> 3. Sewer pump. They may not of had one before.
> ...


Or a combo of 1 and 2. 
Several years ago I kept hearing my sump pump cycle off and on every few minutes and I’m thinking what’s going on here? Open the Bilco door and down the steps to the cellar and I see the problem immediately, steamy fog and water running out of the top of my water heater on the floor and in the sump basin. 
Nothing a new water heater can’t fix lol.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Sparky4021 said:


> You can also check the load balance on the panel. If most of their appliances and space heaters are on one leg it will drive up the usage. I had one customer that had this problem, it took a long long time to figure out what the problem was. Using an energy monitor is how I finally figured it out.


What are you talking about? I can pull 200 amps off one leg of my panel or the other, or 100amps from both, the meter with read exactly the same. Unbalanced panels have nothing to do with kWh.


----------



## Forge Boyz (Nov 7, 2014)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> What are you talking about? I can pull 200 amps off one leg of my panel or the other, or 100amps from both, the meter with read exactly the same. Unbalanced panels have nothing to do with kWh.


Apparently that is a fairly common misconception. I ran across this recently. 




Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## Compare Power Companies (Mar 21, 2021)

Totally agree guys.

is fairly simple 1 kilowatt hour = a 1 kilowatt appliance operating for 1 hour, or 10 x 100 watt light bulbs on for an hour, or 1 x 100 w bulb on for 10 hours.

Phone chargers can be 22 watts now fast charge, Ipad 10 watts, it all adds up.

with smart meter technology you can see where the house's peaks, and their base loads are.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Forge Boyz said:


> Apparently that is a fairly common misconception. I ran across this recently.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Stop getting your theory from YouTube videos. Man - this guy is a HOME INSPECTOR and he has no idea what he's talking about, as if you draw 50a on one leg and the other leg is 5a the energy company will only read the 50a load and ignore the 5a (600 watts) on the other leg? But move 25a to the other leg and it's balenced 30a / 30a and that balanced 30 240v load will save money? That's not how a watt hour meter works.


----------



## Forge Boyz (Nov 7, 2014)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Stop getting your theory from YouTube videos. Man - this guy is a HOME INSPECTOR and he has no idea what he's talking about, as if you draw 50a on one leg and the other leg is 5a the energy company will only read the 50a load and ignore the 5a (600 watts) on the other leg? But move 25a to the other leg and it's balenced 30a / 30a and that balanced 30 240v load will save money? That's not how a watt hour meter works.


Umm... I know that. I posted the link to shoe that it is a misconception people have. And for grins.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

Wonder why the comments are turned off? 

I know I had a few I wanted to share.........


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Forge Boyz said:


> Umm... I know that. I posted the link to shoe that it is a misconception people have. And for grins.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


Ah, you got me.


----------



## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

joe-nwt said:


> Wonder why the comments are turned off?
> 
> I know I had a few I wanted to share.........





Forge Boyz said:


> Apparently that is a fairly common misconception. I ran across this recently.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk





LGLS said:


> Stop getting your theory from YouTube videos. Man - this guy is a HOME INSPECTOR and he has no idea what he's talking about, as if you draw 50a on one leg and the other leg is 5a the energy company will only read the 50a load and ignore the 5a (600 watts) on the other leg? But move 25a to the other leg and it's balenced 30a / 30a and that balanced 30 240v load will save money? That's not how a watt hour meter works.


So are all you guys saying that residential three wire service metering is 2-element Blondel compliant ???


----------



## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

emtnut said:


> So are all you guys saying that residential three wire service metering is 2-element Blondel compliant ???


Oh fer sure, yeah, that's it. Wait, I shouldn't speak for the other guys.....


----------



## Sparkchaser1 (May 17, 2015)

Contact the utility for a 12 month energy usage report.


----------



## Greg Sparkovich (Sep 15, 2007)

Age and size of appliances?
Someone mention a leaking fridge ...but also maybe an older fridge?
A larger water heater? A water heater set on a higher thermostat setting?
How about the dryer? Was the old one gas and the new one electric? Is it rainy season there? I dry more clothes when it's damp and maybe I want to wear my jacket again later in the day (That's just an example and not not too likely unless there are a few people doing this)

Don't be offended by this, but I'm going to make an assumption here:
1). You look young, and
2). You don't have an amp meter (which is typically part of a good multimeter)

Are you relatively new to contracting on your own?

If so, 2 pieces of advice:
1). Always get your customers to do as much "homework" as possible before you show up. In this case, I'd love to have a circuit map. This would be helpful to look for circuits that SHOULDN'T spin a meter -but if they do, I'll look for a low grade ground short there. I already have instructions on how to do this written as a google doc so I send a customer a link so they can do it themselves. Bonus: sending customers free information makes you look prepared, professional, and friendly/concerned/helpful. Believe it or not, that is usually more important than price. People HATE having to hire contractors -so finding one that makes them feel comfortable is a priority for a long-term relationship.  

2). Troubleshooting is the most difficult job in residential work. By "difficult" I mean mentally, not physically. Consider turning these kinds of jobs down if you have enough other work -at least for now. The reason is, that if you screw up a tough job, it's not really your fault; BUT the customer will blame you anyway. That can really hurt your reputation if they start telling people. Or reviewing you online!!! You don't want to look yourself online and read:
"Came to my house, couldn't figure out the problem/took hours to figure out the problem. What a waste of time and money. Will never hire again".
(This has never happened to me, but I'm very competitive and I've spent a LOT of time reading reviews or other electricians)


----------



## dspiffy (Nov 25, 2013)

Greg Sparkovich said:


> 2). Troubleshooting is the most difficult job in residential work. By "difficult" I mean mentally, not physically. Consider turning these kinds of jobs down if you have enough other work -at least for now. The reason is, that if you screw up a tough job, it's not really your fault; BUT the customer will blame you anyway. That can really hurt your reputation if they start telling people. Or reviewing you online!!! You don't want to look yourself online and read:
> "Came to my house, couldn't figure out the problem/took hours to figure out the problem. What a waste of time and money. Will never hire again".
> (This has never happened to me, but I'm very competitive and I've spent a LOT of time reading reviews or other electricians)


This raises a great question. If someone hires to to troubleshoot a problem and you cant figure it out, do you still bill them?


----------



## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

dspiffy said:


> This raises a great question. If someone hires to to troubleshoot a problem and you cant figure it out, do you still bill them?


What did you accomplish that you would feel comfortable charging them for?


----------



## Greg Sparkovich (Sep 15, 2007)

joe-nwt said:


> What did you accomplish that you would feel comfortable charging them for?


You spent time ...BUT I don't think it's a black and white issue and it's worth thinking about.

I explain as much as I can about the process that I'll use and tell them my expected results if everything goes well or what I'm afraid the issue may be if it doesn't.
Often I don't have time for a major fix, so I'll tell the customer "This is what I'm willing to do and if I can't figure out the problem, then it's likely to be (say) an issue where the wire has to be re-run; I won't have time to do that, so you may want to hire someone else."
So if they hire me, I'll test for a bad breaker, receptacle, trace the circuit, but if my conclusion is that I'd need to replace the wire, they'll have to hire someone else to do that. I'm also willing to cooperate 100% with the next electrician so that the customer doesn't have to try to explain what I tested for.
Another example is flickering lights throughout the house. Clearly a service problem ...so when I had an elbow injury and I couldn't get move or climb my extension ladder, I'd tell my customer "It's probably the bugs, because that's the most common issue. However, it could be a bad connection at the meter socket, a bad meter, a bad connection at the main breaker, a bad main breaker, or where the main breaker connects to the panel is fried (replace the panel)... I can absolutely tell you what the problem will be, but of those things, I can't tighten the bugs and I can't swap out your panel (although I may be able to provide temporary power to the panel). So, I suggest you try to find someone else if you can: but if you can't, I'm willing to come over and do what I can."

There are certain things I _KNOW_ I can't handle (troubleshooting HVAC or industrial equipment), and I won't take those jobs.

So: be honest, offer information, set expectations, charge fairly for your time if you think it may be justified by you taking on the work ...but the line between "Fair" and"unfair" might be fuzzy or even move depending on you and the circumstances.


----------



## dspiffy (Nov 25, 2013)

Figuring out the problem and fixing the problem are two different things. If I can determine the problem, but it's a bigger project to fix than I have time and resources to fix, I feel comfortable charging for my time.

If I cant find the problem within a reasonable amount of time, I would either charge my trip charge, or nothing.

So far I have yet to get a troubleshooting call I couldnt solve in 1-3 hours. And most of them came down to an error by whoever originally did the wiring.


----------



## Greg Sparkovich (Sep 15, 2007)

One of the biggest problems I have is people wanting to hire me when I'm trying to tell them that I can't or shouldn't do the job.

It's tough being charming.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

emtnut said:


> So are all you guys saying that residential three wire service metering is 2-element Blondel compliant ???


Well it's one less element than the number of wires in the service no?


----------



## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

LGLS said:


> Well it's one less element than the number of wires in the service no?


With a 4 jaw socket, they rip you off if you have high neutral current load.
Generally not an issue. If someone put a chitload of resistive heat and it all landed on the same phase, then you are paying more than what you actually use.

I have no idea if the new 'smart' meters can overcome this, but I doubt it.
With a five jaw socket, they can do it ... but only if the meter actually is blondel compliant.

I'd say for 99% of resi, it doesn't matter .... but it really is a thing !


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

emtnut said:


> With a 4 jaw socket, they rip you off if you have high neutral current load.
> Generally not an issue. If someone put a chitload of resistive heat and it all landed on the same phase, then you are paying more than what you actually use.
> 
> I have no idea if the new 'smart' meters can overcome this, but I doubt it.
> ...


With a 4 jaw socket, the meter has no idea what the neutral current is. A 2400 watt load for one hour on one 120v leg will read 2.4 kW, or the other leg. And a 2400 watt 240 volt load will also read 2.4 kW just the same. Add an additional 1000 watts on one leg and the meter will read that, it will not assume both legs are balanced and read the higher leg and double that current consumption.


----------



## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

LGLS said:


> With a 4 jaw socket, the meter has no idea what the neutral current is. A 2400 watt load for one hour on one 120v leg will read 2.4 kW, or the other leg. And a 2400 watt 240 volt load will also read 2.4 kW just the same. Add an additional 1000 watts on one leg and the meter will read that, it will not assume both legs are balanced and read the higher leg and double that current consumption.


Well, you would think that the meter should !

..... But there is this .... Blondel's theorem - Wikipedia

Copy from that link
"The form 2S meter is extensively used in the metering of residential three wire services, despite being non compliant in such services. This common residential service consists of two 120 volt wires and one neutral wire. A Blondel compliant meter for such a service would need two elements (and a five jaw socket to accept such a meter), but the 2S meter is a single element meter."


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

emtnut said:


> Well, you would think that the meter should !
> 
> ..... But there is this .... Blondel's theorem - Wikipedia
> 
> ...


Which has the luxury of physics - metering one leg and the other in the opposite direction, the currents are independently additive. Like clamping an ammeter on L1 and L2 backwards.


----------



## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

OP has been no show for 6 days now.
Hopefully he comes back with the answer.
It made for some interesting dialogue.


----------



## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

LGLS said:


> Which has the luxury of physics - metering one leg and the other in the opposite direction, the currents are independently additive. Like clamping an ammeter on L1 and L2 backwards.


Well, the luxury of physics interferes with the disc spinning if they put 2 CTs in, that's why a 2S (4 jaw meter) is what they call a 1 1/2 element meter (1 CT and one Voltage).

So it only reads 100% accurate when both phases are balanced.

As I mentioned earlier, I don't know if the new smart meters are 2 elements.


----------



## Malywr (Jan 23, 2018)

joe-nwt said:


> Your profile is not filled out either and if one was to skim your discussions they might think the same about you.


Really 
My profile is same filled as yours snd every one else and this one looks like handyman


----------



## dspiffy (Nov 25, 2013)

He's got a website and a full profile and Google.









Morbes Electric- Electrician In Rosarito


Morbes Electric is the electrician near you. Servicing all of the Playas De Rosarito and Playas De Tijuana area.



morbeselectric.com





If the mods thinks someone qualifies I dont know why anyone else would care.


----------



## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

Malywr said:


> Really
> My profile is same filled as yours snd every one else and this one looks like handyman


Really.

When I go to my profile,and click "about" it says "electrical contractor" (which also shows up under my username.

When I look at your profile, and click "about", it says *____* 

So it's not exactly same filled.


----------



## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

During a conversion there generally is a whole lot of mapping required and many similar things get grouped and batched.
Then there's a data quality control to see how it all came out, and decide whether to roll with it or make some more tweaks. There will be some anomalies for sure in any conversion.


----------



## Malywr (Jan 23, 2018)

I see 
Sorry I didn’t notice that. On my side looks same ad my profile. 



joe-nwt said:


> Really.
> 
> When I go to my profile,and click "about" it says "electrical contractor" (which also shows up under my username.
> 
> ...


----------



## Malywr (Jan 23, 2018)

Mistyped 
Looks same as my profile. No different.


----------



## peterolfe (9 mo ago)

Hello, MorbesElectric! If you compare the electricity cost for both areas? If yes, and costs are equal, I recommend you check the whole electricity system in their house. Also, this situation can happen because their neighbors are stealing their electricity, so when they actually moved into a new house, the electricity cost doubled. When you solve this problem, I recommend you look at a good financial tool that helps customers short their bill costs squeeze.com.


----------



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

peterolfe said:


> Hello, MorbesElectric! If you compare the electricity cost for both areas?


More than a year old thread. He was here for 20 days then gone since.


----------

