# Why aren’t all of the windmills turning?



## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

Is it plugged in?
That's the first question asked during the '90's when consumers were calling tech support. I think something like 40% were not plugged in and people were calling asking how to turn it on.

That being said, is the wind blowing?


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## getting old (Mar 26, 2021)

If the wind is too fast, they need to lock them so they don't spin too fast. But if you're seeing a few locked, and the rest turning, suppose those ones could have an issue and be waiting on repairs. 

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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

It may be a contract thing with the grid.
Power has to be produced and used at the same rate. On older plants that was easier as you agreed to sell and someone agree's to buy at a contracted price. Any shortages were made up by the free market at a higher price. 

Texas was a perfect example of a under supply issue. The price went to emergency levels to encourage producers to ramp up production and when that did not work they switched to load shedding as a last resort. In the case of a over supply the market may go negative so you end up paying to produce electricity so you idle some generators. Wind is easier to idle compared to gas fired so there would be no surprise to see them shutting down a bunch of them.


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## bill39 (Sep 4, 2009)

Thanks for the thorough explanation.


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## SWDweller (Dec 9, 2020)

Lack of rain


Found this and would like to know the back story on this. I have seen windmills broken but never like this.


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

Can Texas wind turbines melt in the summer heat? We checked.


The heat can do a lot of things, but melting turbine blades isn't one of them.




www.mysanantonio.com


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## SWDweller (Dec 9, 2020)

Cool thanks


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

getting old said:


> If the wind is too fast, they need to lock them so they don't spin too fast.


I always "assumed" they could change the pitch on those blades (like an airplane does) to help control the speed of the windmill. Do you know if that is an accurate or inaccurate assumption?


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## SWDweller (Dec 9, 2020)

The blades on the big ones can change pitch. Keeps them from over speeding in the high winds.
They also have electric/mechanical breaks so they will not turn at all. 
I know I would/could not work on them. I do not like heights that much.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

I think most of these are designed to IEC standards which loosely translated means 'we will use the chintziest material possible and push it right to its limits, maybe a little beyond'. 

What do you mean 'the generator burnt up'?? I worked fine in the lab........


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## LARMGUY (Aug 22, 2010)

I think in Oklahoma you have to select the fact you want the power generated from the windmills.
This begs several questions.
Why would you do that when it is more expensive per Kw? 
Are people really that stupid to think their electricity is specifically coming from a windmill while everyone on their grid is getting it cheaper from a gas fired genny?


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## SWDweller (Dec 9, 2020)

I was doing maintenance for a University and vendor showed up during our scheduled boiler shut down with several IEC SQD motor starters. I said no to the change and the boss over road me. I installed 4 IEC starter on feed water pumps for the boilers. The first one failed in less than a month. Got a new one slightly larger , it lasted 2 months. I quit bitch'n about them and the boss decided to buy some which I screamed about. He asked me why, I looked at him and the vendor, the pieces of the IEC stuff in in a bucket which I will give you. I reinstalled the old NEMA SQD starters cause I got tired of being yelled at because we were not providing water to the boilers. Both were pretty shocked, never did come and get the IEC starters.
I guess they would be ok if , i do mean IF they were applied correctly. I am a simple guy give me a product that works and I will keep using it. 
Same thing happened when the mechinics decided to remove the cast iron feed water pumps. Because they were such a pain in the ass once a year because you had to make parts for them. It was not that hard, besides we all got paid by the year.


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## Sparkchaser1 (May 17, 2015)

Last year in my area (midwest) a new wind farm was put up (heavily fought against to no avail). Several windmills have never turned. Word on the street (gravel farm roads) is that they were defective from day one. These things aren't very popular in farm country unless your getting a lease check from them.


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

Sparkchaser1 said:


> Last year in my area (midwest) a new wind farm was put up (heavily fought against to no avail). Several windmills have never turned. Word on the street (gravel farm roads) is that they were defective from day one. These things aren't very popular in farm country unless your getting a lease check from them.


Couple of ol farm boys with a gas axe could fell one of them like a tree pretty easily. You know how things happen sometimes.


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## Sparkchaser1 (May 17, 2015)

460 Delta said:


> Couple of ol farm boys with a gas axe could fell one of them like a tree pretty easily. You know how things happen sometimes.


One did end up with a broken blade. Rumor was that it had a bullet hole or two. I would think that it would take quite a few to weaken it, but a couple of bored plow jockeys......well, you never know.


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## Papa Tiger (Sep 1, 2021)

Deer hunters miss a lot & hit speed limit signs too several too mention !  😂😂


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## Djea3 (Mar 8, 2019)

Back in the 80's I was involved in early wind farms. We put up 120 units in less than a year including sub-station. I designed the fail safe brake systems and nacelles in later production. Our blades had a counter-balance system centrifugally operated. We didn't need to shut down unless woads were REALLY high.
I can tell you that there are surface wind variations including gusts, and foiled wind from other units if the wind changes direction from the design wind directions. This can cause damage similar to impact damage. If induced gust impacts cause an issue they have to shut the units down. Can be a lot of reasons..but usually it is that something is broken or that the local wind to that unit is gusting or below specification.

5 Megawatt Wind turbines;
In Washington State I toured the "Mod 5" units in the early 80's. 300 ft tall 5 megawatt units with 100 ton 300 ft diameter blades. The nacelle was almost literally a boxcar. An elevator took you to the nacelle where a huge control computer and relays etc. ran the unit. There were two emergency exit methods. A 300 ft ladder to climb down without any landings and a bungee jump from the back door of the nacelle.
The mod 5's were not running when I toured. When in the nacelle the operations tech told the the story. There was a huge thrust bearing and another load bearing. The load bearing holds the 100 ton spinning load. It was tapered and mounted to the main structural rails that held the generator and torque shaft. Apparently when designed, the engineers did not include chucking locations to make the load bearing. The manufacturer was told to drill and tap where necessary. During regular inspection the guy that was giving me the tour had found a crack on the load housing...it was opening and closing with every turn of the blade. It was later determined that the location of the tapped holes caused the failure.
Anyway, He radio'd and phone called in a SLOW emergency shut down and bailed out using the bungees. I guess they eventually fixed the issue on paper...but they had already pulled up the tracks for the cranes that were built on site. I never heard that they ever ran again. Not sure that they didn't but all of them nationwide were shut down.


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

Great story. 
Thanks so much for sharing.


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

Djea3 said:


> Apparently when designed, the engineers did not include chucking locations to make the load bearing. The manufacturer was* told to drill and tap where necessary*.


I bet there was a fight about who said what.


> During regular inspection the guy that was giving me the tour had found a crack on the load housing...it was opening and closing with every turn of the blade.


That would scare the crap out of me until I got away.


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## WannabeTesla (Feb 24, 2020)

In my time working wind, i learned that once a guy gets in, he brings his cousins, buddies, etc... qualified or not. You need to consider where they place these things- talent isn't exactly living down every dirt road. Lightning would roll through and knock out units that weren't protected properly. Logical troubleshooting was considered magic- mostly guys would shotgun until they ran out of parts or boss had time to make up a good excuse for machine not running. I wouldn't be one bit surprised if those units are down due to maintenance. As for code, any time i brought it up, everyone looked at me as if i were speaking Greek. What i was told is that "production is not governed by NEC." Prints were kept absolutely secret by the few guys who had managed to obtain them and for some reason, everyone was OK with this. Lots of wasted potential (pun not intended but you liked it) in that industry, imo. Having had an in- depth look at it, I'm surprised by the claims that the manufacturers and maintenance companies are making and advertising. Reaffirms my belief that it's not what you're selling, but how you sell it that really matters.


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## Djea3 (Mar 8, 2019)

WannabeTesla said:


> Reaffirms my belief that it's not what you're selling, but how you sell it that really matters.


They were NOT EVER selling energy production at least through the 80's and into the 90's I have no idea after that. They sold TAX DEDUCTIONS. It never mattered if more than .1kW was ever produced (that could be done by spinning the unit up and running in a moderate wind until it stopped). You got instant tax deductions, plus an asset, plus depreciation. It was magic money and nothing else. I left the industry around 1984?
I always LOVED that industry, but the reality of it was insanity. I knew of wind park developers that had to have machines up and running by Dec. 31 for tax reasons. The blades couldn't be finished in time so they mounted PLYWOOD BLADES onto the machines and took the deductions!
I don't want to get into the infighting and backstabbing and theft of corporate assets including technology. I won't even begin to to get into the subcontractors that KNEW it was about taxes and the 12/31 deadlines and held production/delivery to extort delivery at higher price.
Another story but HELL, I had to go steal 12 million dollars worth of our own generators, nacelles, control boxes and tens and tens of miles of our own wire to stop the extortion. I stole it all in one night with 5 trucks running 12 hours solid round trips to 4 locations! It was insanity. Of coarse I left a receipt for the goods and $20 for propane for the fork trucks. lol
Receipts keep people out of jail (twice in my life now).


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## WannabeTesla (Feb 24, 2020)

@Djea3 

Wind energy has significantly more capability nowadays. Unfortunately, i don't think it's realizing near what it could produce. My opinion is that it's being marketed as a type of magical "green" solution to yucky dirty petrol. What the average person, including some very capable smart people, doesn't realize is the amount of sheer material that goes into one single tower. Cement, steel, copper, plastic, blah blah, blah... Obviously, all the vehicles/ industry to produce and move that, as well. Now, factor in poor preventative/periodic maintenance techniques and it turns into a mess very quickly. I've long felt that wind would be better utilized on a significantly smaller scale- think of a rooftop unit (location specific, of course) that can be serviced by a local electrician working out of his van. Sort of like current solar. Maybe in larger cases a small neighborhood might have one or two small towers installed in appropriate locations that could be serviced by a small crew of 2-3. I've moved on from the idea but for a short while i thought i would make this my niche. It's a nice mental exercise for me now in my... uh... free time?


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## Djea3 (Mar 8, 2019)

WannabeTesla said:


> @Djea3
> I've long felt that wind would be better utilized on a significantly smaller scale- think of a rooftop unit . It's a nice mental exercise for me now in my... uh... free time?


DIYers and off grid DIYers already have systems like that. Tilt up towers, DC systems. Been around a LONG time. However, for pumping water the American windmill was a wonder in the old days. They still run and work today.
The issue is finding a location that gives enough constant wind that off grid will work. Being on grid is insane if you are trying to make electricity at all. You can't put one up in hurricane country at all, too dangerous.

THe BIGGEST savings one can make on a local system is solar HOT WATER. Almost every home in Miami post 1900 had solar water heat. Why don't they now? Stupidity and simplicity....plug it into electric and forget it. IT is STUPID especially in the South to NOT have solar water heat. That is 1/4 to 1/3 of every home's electric bill! and it is FREE and the systems last much longer than photovoltaic with less maintenance than a windmill.

When considering large scale production the ONLY answer to reduce pollution, end power shortages, etc is NUCLEAR POWER. There is only one need. TO find a way to get rid of the waste material. Possibly send it to the sun in the end.
All the other methods are too environmentally and too materially costly as well as the manpower.


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## WannabeTesla (Feb 24, 2020)

@Djea3 

I'm wth you on most of that but i don't think I'm ready to have the "ship it to the sun" conversation again. My primary concern wth nuclear (well, concurrent with the waste issue) is that when nukes fail, they fail so utterly catastrophically that the earth is changed on a very large scale pretty much permanently. That the media stops talking about it doesn't change the fact. This will continue to happen as long as profit is the driver.
That's why i think that small scale wind, exactly like you mentioned, but with a more qualified (ie, not profit-driven) basis is a more efficient use of wind. I realize this will never happen. I agree that solar heat is very much under utilized. 
I agree that the foundation of wind power in the pumping tech is remarkable. With today's materials we should be blowing away the old numbers. If we could couple that with geothermal tech, solar hot water, et al, we could really do something! 
Another problem is plain old mindset. For example, a new house built is almost never sited well, let alone oriented properly. Just watched one go up around the corner with the "front" of the home facing the road so that everyone can see all the glory of it. That's fine, but all those windows should be facing south and the main roofline (there are about 11 ridges total) runs north- south with no overhang to shade the windows in summer. We have the tech but the mindset is wrong. Frequently you talk to the people who buy these homes and they don't even know that passive solar exists. 
We all know that people like Tesla were/are up against the money and that's why it won't change. I feel that every conversation needs that disclaimer. The best we can do is our best.
A neat guy used to tell me that the dirtiest word known is "convenience." That's why 
plug-and-play reigns supreme.


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## CWL (Jul 7, 2020)

I've looked into electrical generation with wind for my personal home use. I'm located on rural property with electrical as the only utility for heat, ac, water well, etc. Even with what I consider high electrical rates it just doesn't pencil out. By the time I get a unit large enough to make it worth the trouble and plan out the preventative maintenance I would spend more in the long run. Also living in an area where hail storms are a very real thing solar panels on the roof don't excite me.


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## Djea3 (Mar 8, 2019)

WannabeTesla said:


> @Djea3
> My primary concern wth nuclear (well, concurrent with the waste issue) is that when nukes fail, they fail so utterly catastrophically that the earth is changed on a very large scale pretty much permanently.


Florida decided to allow a new nuclear facility. When they poured the hundreds of yards of foundation concrete they blew it. So, the entire project was SCRAPPED. But here is the problem:
The engineers, architects, soil engineers and contractors completely blew it. They had approved Billions? expenditures to build an entire plant, designed it and began the process of building it. The entire expenditure was possibly 40% at that point. 
When the failure happened the company went before the state and demanded that the electricity users PAY FOR THE BLUNDER. The state allowed them to collect the entire expenditure from the electricity subscribers (who have no choice as to electricity company in FL).
Further, the PROFIT of the shareholders in GUARANTEED as a PERCENTAGE in Florida. The MORE money spent the more money earned. SO, because these CRIMINAL ENGINEERS AND CONTRACTORS FAILED AT THIER DUTY< the shareholders profit and the users pay.
The issue is that the company should have had to pay all losses, the engineers and contractors should have been sued and lost their bonds. Instead WE THE PEOPLE are RAPED by all.
This is my primary concern with any government approved system. all costs rest on the PEOPLE instead of on the corporations that stand to profit. The profit driven end means that the engineers and contractors want $$$$ without responsibility. 
I say that the state should have said, NOPE, you blew it, your SHAREHOLDERS PAY.


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## Rainwater01 (Oct 6, 2015)

LARMGUY said:


> I think in Oklahoma you have to select the fact you want the power generated from the windmills.
> This begs several questions.
> Why would you do that when it is more expensive per Kw?
> Are people really that stupid to think their electricity is specifically coming from a windmill while everyone on their grid is getting it cheaper from a gas fired genny?


This is what my local power company is doing. I assume it’s to either pay for their current sites or fund future sites. I hope people don’t think that their electricity comes from that panel but that they’re investing in alternative resources. 

If you sell them your solar they only pay 4.4 cents per kWh. 











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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Djea3 said:


> Florida decided to allow a new nuclear facility. When they poured the hundreds of yards of foundation concrete they blew it. So, the entire project was SCRAPPED. But here is the problem:
> The engineers, architects, soil engineers and contractors completely blew it. They had approved Billions? expenditures to build an entire plant, designed it and began the process of building it. The entire expenditure was possibly 40% at that point.
> When the failure happened the company went before the state and demanded that the electricity users PAY FOR THE BLUNDER. The state allowed them to collect the entire expenditure from the electricity subscribers (who have no choice as to electricity company in FL).
> Further, the PROFIT of the shareholders in GUARANTEED as a PERCENTAGE in Florida. The MORE money spent the more money earned. SO, because these CRIMINAL ENGINEERS AND CONTRACTORS FAILED AT THIER DUTY< the shareholders profit and the users pay.
> ...


Are you talking about a case in Florida or Long Island, New York? Here they spent gazillions on a plant with many problems and much opposition. A 20 year project. Tested it, contaminated it, and shortly thereafter closed it. Then they have to de-contaminate it. 30 years later I believe we are still paying for it.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Has anybody seen the movie, " Planet of the Humans "? It shows the dirty little secrets of the "green energy" business. Especially wind farms and bio fuels. If half it true then we are doomed. I was surprised that it was directed by Michael Moore.


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

kb1jb1 said:


> Has anybody seen the movie, " Planet of the Humans "? It shows the dirty little secrets of the "green energy" business. Especially wind farms and bio fuels. If half it true then we are doomed. I was surprised that it was directed by Michael Moore.


Just found it. Will watch. 
Thanks!


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## Apelectric (Dec 6, 2017)

kb1jb1 said:


> Are you talking about a case in Florida or Long Island, New York? Here they spent gazillions on a plant with many problems and much opposition. A 20 year project. Tested it, contaminated it, and shortly thereafter closed it. Then they have to de-contaminate it. 30 years later I believe we are still paying for it.


Shoreham Nuclear Power Plant.... $6 billion.... what a waste.

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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Apelectric said:


> Shoreham Nuclear Power Plant.... $6 billion.... what a waste.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk


It was initially estimated to cost only $75 million. Talk about cost over runs. There was no way to evacuate Long Island in an emergency. It also failed many tests.


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## Djea3 (Mar 8, 2019)

Rainwater01 said:


> If you sell them your solar they only pay 4.4 cents per kWh.
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I have no idea what the ACTUAL payment is, however, the federal law SPECIFICALLY states (or used to) that the price paid for alternative energy is the "avoided cost of energy". That is defined as the cost of the least efficient power plant to produce delivered power within that system and includes fuel and all overhead at the plant.
The lease efficient plants probably cost at least .08-.12 per kW delivered (they were probably close to .07 in the 1980's, can't be less now). Remember that the utilities get to include depreciation and play other tricks to lower that number, but I fail to understand how it could be as low as .05/kW. Coal, and oil, probably natural gas are just plain more expensive than that. Also, remember that the utilities have now separated the delivery system from the production system in values. I am sure that there are a lot of games involved.
According to my calculations the wholesale cost of Natural Gas itself is only .2 to .6 cents per kW. But the cost of the plants and operations are the driving factor, not the cost of the NG. In Florida we pay about .13/kW residential. However, the utilities have separated the line maintenance, the billing/management organization and overhead and all other costs from the power generation. They also have added separate fuel cost fees.
Looking at my bill I can see that the total price per kW including fuel is 11.4 cents. If we assume a 20% profit, (remember all other overhead is billed separately) is 9.1 cents/kW. That should be the minimum payed for alternative production.
The billed cost for fuel in my current bill was 3.2cents per kW. There is no way that it only costs 1.8 cents per kW to manufacture the electricity (total 5 cents per kW). They are charing 8.2 cents/kW for the actual electricity PLUS the fuel charge. if allowed 20% profit on the actual electricity that would be 9.76 cents per kW for the standard cost, not avoided cost. Customer service charge is about 1.2 cents per kW.
Something is hinky if the utilities are paying only .05 or less.


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## Rainwater01 (Oct 6, 2015)

Around here we have Duke Energy and Co-Ops and I think they’re regulated differently. Duke will give you one credit per kWh you produce but will never pay you. My coop gives 4.4 cents and another nearby gives 6 cents. 

If I put solar on my house I’ll try to self consume as much solar as my array puts out during the day so I’m avoiding paying 9-10 cents an hour instead of being paid 4.4. 

I figure energy prices are going to go up and system costs are rising so now’s a good time to invest in it.


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## Djea3 (Mar 8, 2019)

Rainwater01 said:


> I’m avoiding paying 9-10 cents an hour instead of being paid 4.4.
> 
> I figure energy prices are going to go up and system costs are rising so now’s a good time to invest in it.


I got curious and found this one the web. Look lower in the charts and it gives the method of payment for delivered power from a home system or private producer to the utility.

As I stated: BEFORE you invest in photovoltaics in any way, install a solar hot water heat system. If you make it large enough it can be used for sub-floor heat or even in a heat exchange system for winter heat. That should save you between 25 and 60% of your utility bill to begin with and keeps you "off grid" for much of your use. Then IF you want to destroy the earth by mining rare earth metals for solar cells go ahead and rate the system to balance the rest of your loads, figure on replacing it at under 20 years though. Solar water heat is by far the easiest and cheapest to maintain and has the highest longevity.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

While I am for environmentally friendly stuff there are down sides to it. I have been working on a house with geo thermal, solar hot water, oil fired boiler, and two large storage tanks. Lots of piping and solenoid valves. The systems are about 12 years old and nothing is working correctly. It worked well when it was first installed but now there are no competent people to work on it. It's over 10 years old.. One contractor wanted to rip everything out and install new. $75,000.00. Others keep changing parts but things still are not right. Hot water is coming out of the cold faucet. The well never shuts off. Etc... I am only a stupid electrician but even I can see the missing or broken check valves. Solenoid valves stuck open. Mixing control wiring.. ...For the average home owner I strongly believe in the " KISS" philosophy. Keep It Simple Stupid.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

kb1jb1 said:


> While I am for environmentally friendly stuff there are down sides to it. I have been working on a house with geo thermal, solar hot water, oil fired boiler, and two large storage tanks. Lots of piping and solenoid valves. The systems are about 12 years old and nothing is working correctly. It worked well when it was first installed but now there are no competent people to work on it. It's over 10 years old.. One contractor wanted to rip everything out and install new. $75,000.00. Others keep changing parts but things still are not right. Hot water is coming out of the cold faucet. The well never shuts off. Etc... I am only a stupid electrician but even I can see the missing or broken check valves. Solenoid valves stuck open. Mixing control wiring.. ...For the average home owner I strongly believe in the " KISS" philosophy. Keep It Simple Stupid.


 If i had to work on it, my first step would be to make a mechanical sketch and then a control drawing. That way i could understand the system and reference my drawings. On the one hand it could be interesting, on the other cause much gray hair LOL


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## Rainwater01 (Oct 6, 2015)

Djea3 said:


> I got curious and found this one the web. Look lower in the charts and it gives the method of payment for delivered power from a home system or private producer to the utility.
> 
> As I stated: BEFORE you invest in photovoltaics in any way, install a solar hot water heat system. If you make it large enough it can be used for sub-floor heat or even in a heat exchange system for winter heat. That should save you between 25 and 60% of your utility bill to begin with and keeps you "off grid" for much of your use. Then IF you want to destroy the earth by mining rare earth metals for solar cells go ahead and rate the system to balance the rest of your loads, figure on replacing it at under 20 years though. Solar water heat is by far the easiest and cheapest to maintain and has the highest longevity.


Yeah the dirty little secret is clean energy is only clean after you pull it out of the ground. 


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

I'm half way into this movie Planet of the Humans on Amazon Prime.
Quite eye opening.


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## SomeJoe (Apr 9, 2021)

MikeFL said:


> I'm half way into this movie Planet of the Humans on Amazon Prime.
> Quite eye opening.



Just started watching it


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Rainwater01 said:


> This is what my local power company is doing. I assume it’s to either pay for their current sites or fund future sites. I hope people don’t think that their electricity comes from that panel but that they’re investing in alternative resources.
> 
> If you sell them your solar they only pay 4.4 cents per kWh.
> 
> ...


The pay back of your $500 is 17-20 years.


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## Djea3 (Mar 8, 2019)

backstay said:


> The pay back of your $500 is 17-20 years.


And that happens to be the exact life expectancy of a photovoltaic system. Such symmetry!


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Djea3 said:


> And that happens to be the exact life expectancy of a photovoltaic system. Such symmetry!


How did come up with a PV system life of 17-20 years?


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

backstay said:


> How did come up with a PV system life of 17-20 years?


Near as I can tell, the panels lose about 2% of their output each year.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

micromind said:


> Near as I can tell, the panels lose about 2% of their output each year.


Nope


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

A question or statement about the life of photovoltaic panels was made so I was curious. After Googleing it, I noticed the articles about lasting over 25 years were written by people with a vested interest while others said only 15 to 20 years. The ones made years ago are not as long lasting as the ones made today which implies that soon many are going to have to be replacing them. Also the inverters installed years ago only had a warranty of 7 years with a life expectancy of 10 years. I personally do not want my tax money or the fees added to my electric bill going to other peoples rebates. Any feed back on the actual life of these panels? There are dozens of articles with even more opinions. What does the real world say?


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

kb1jb1 said:


> A question or statement about the life of photovoltaic panels was made so I was curious. After Googleing it, I noticed the articles about lasting over 25 years were written by people with a vested interest while others said only 15 to 20 years. The ones made years ago are not as long lasting as the ones made today which implies that soon many are going to have to be replacing them. Also the inverters installed years ago only had a warranty of 7 years with a life expectancy of 10 years. I personally do not want my tax money or the fees added to my electric bill going to other peoples rebates. Any feed back on the actual life of these panels? There are dozens of articles with even more opinions. What does the real world say?


I have photovoltaic modules in place that are 23 years old. They don’t appear to produce any less power than when they were new. Inverters usually have a 5 year warranty. They usually die from lightning strikes. 7 years is a good number for them. I have one that is also 23. But the lightning damage comes from the utilities getting hit, mine is offgrid.


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## Rainwater01 (Oct 6, 2015)

micromind said:


> Near as I can tell, the panels lose about 2% of their output each year.


Here’s an interesting article. It’s more like .5% per year



https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy12osti/51664.pdf




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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Temperature may drive degradation numbers up, but if you have glass over your cells, think what 50 year old glass that’s clean looks like. Pretty much clear.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

I know someone who works for the state parks department and he was relating the story about all the solar panels that they are installing on the beach pavilions. They are bragging about how much it will save them in electricity. They installed the array systems. For those who do not know about seagulls, how do they open clam shells? They fly over the parking lot and drop them to break open the shells. Now they are dropping them on the solar panels.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Rainwater01 said:


> Here’s an interesting article. It’s more like .5% per year
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Notice who wrote the article. The Renewable Energy Institute. They probably have an interest in promoting solar


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## Rainwater01 (Oct 6, 2015)

kb1jb1 said:


> Notice who wrote the article. The Renewable Energy Institute. They probably have an interest in promoting solar


It says NREL National Renewable Energy Laboratory. 

They could have a vested interest in promoting solar. Still an interesting article. They mentioned how the older panels with problems would likely not be a part of the study since they would likely have been replaced when they stopped functioning properly so it’s likely only the better ones would be tested long term. 


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

You guys need to sit in on my solar class.


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## frankendodge (Oct 25, 2019)

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/wind-turbine-collapse-under-investigation-in-southeast-new-brunswick-1.6211106


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

one of them dang ******** found a chainsaw laying around lol


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

Failure was right at the base.

Are those bases filled with concrete? Looks like rebar pulled out of the concrete. Bad mix/ placement. Maybe bad design too.


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## Rainwater01 (Oct 6, 2015)

backstay said:


> You guys need to sit in on my solar class.


That would be cool. Do you live-stream it?


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## Quickservice (Apr 23, 2020)

Wind and solar, wind and solar, wind and solar... on and on... EV's EV's... yack, yack yack... we have to completely do away with fossil fuels and save our planet... I get tired hearing about it.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

backstay said:


> You guys need to sit in on my solar class.


I dont do solar. but i would love to audit some training. What i know i learned from digging in the code and analyzing sales websites

I would be very curious to know if i guessed correctly LOL


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Rainwater01 said:


> That would be cool. Do you live-stream it?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Great idea, I have no clue how to do that.


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## cuba_pete (Dec 8, 2011)

Facebook is totally easy to live stream. Get a page for your pro side and away you go. You can control the access through groups.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

backstay said:


> Great idea, I have no clue how to do that.


please keep me in mind if you do that


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

cuba_pete said:


> Facebook is totally easy to live stream. Get a page for your pro side and away you go. You can control the access through groups.


Facebook? I don’t even have a web page! I do have a YouTube channel for my solar customers. Gives them a step by step on their systems. But there’s no way I’d give you guys access. The comments section would be a S H I T show.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

backstay said:


> Facebook? I don’t even have a web page!


U have a smart phone tho!


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## cuba_pete (Dec 8, 2011)

backstay said:


> Facebook? I don’t even have a web page! I do have a YouTube channel for my solar customers. Gives them a step by step on their systems. But there’s no way I’d give you guys access. The comments section would be a S H I T show.


Hey man, go for it...make a few of us patrons. I only patreon three channels right now and have YT premium. There is money there to be had.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

cuba_pete said:


> Hey man, go for it...make a few of us patrons. I only patreon three channels right now and have YT premium. There is money there to be had.


I have a face for radio not YT.


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## Papa Tiger (Sep 1, 2021)

The question; Nature needs air to flow at its a 'solar driven pace'. Winds to blow. 
So; if that's the case, you put 1000's of big wind turbines up?
'will nature cause the winds to blow harder / higher speeds averaged over a year
to get where NATURE intends them to go?


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

Papa Tiger said:


> The question; Nature needs air to flow at its a 'solar driven pace'. Winds to blow.
> So; if that's the case, you put 1000's of big wind turbines up?
> 'will nature cause the winds to blow harder / higher speeds averaged over a year
> to get where NATURE intends them to go?


To answer that would require extensive geophysics modeling, testing and data collection and analysis. None has been done that I am aware of.
If it were done today first requirement would be to root out all the biased "climate scientists". Good luck with that.

Consider the height of the windmills and the elevation of the jet stream and I think you'll find any impact is negligible.

Do the windmills impact the rotation and orbit of the Earth? Do skyscrapers? Do mines?

In physics a body spins faster when its mass is closer to its center of rotation. That's why figure skaters pull their arms & hands in closer to their center of rotation during the fastest spinning motion.

In the past we had many more leap seconds than we have today. Why?


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

I talk to the wind
My words are all carried away
I talk to the wind
The wind does not hear, the wind cannot hear


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## Apelectric (Dec 6, 2017)

MikeFL said:


> To answer that would require extensive geophysics modeling, testing and data collection and analysis. None has been done that I am aware of.
> If it were done today first requirement would be to root out all the biased "climate scientists". Good luck with that.
> 
> Consider the height of the windmills and the elevation of the jet stream and I think you'll find any impact is negligible.
> ...











The Dam From China That Slowed The Rotation Of The Earth


But how did this man made structure manage to do so?




spreehadutta.medium.com


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Those windmills tested positive for ..... and thus are staying home from work right now , waiting for their government check to cover it.


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## Papa Tiger (Sep 1, 2021)

The future of Energy. 

Think of an alien space as being MT of Energy and Energy leaking into it at an ever increasing rate thus Expansion, Entropy and the beginning of things or the absolute end of all things energy wise. Why is there MT space? Cause its dead cold, lacking all energy. Possibly one might think of it as a vacuum sucking all things Energy, particle/wave toward it. Thus everything at basic is a particle wave moving out to meet up in it. Said another way there is more energy production than Gravity in space time, All energy / Mass being a particle wave basically, thus the loss expands as energy going to the dead space of endless as particle / waves. Endless MT Space, lacking gravity thus time not existing. Most likely all basic particle waves synchronize into a plausible in phase Particle wave eventually recreating mass in physical form. Thus Gravity, magnetic force and all the rest / strong force/weak force making time elastic. All of everything is energy or a huge extreme unmeasurably cold dead space/time lacking MT. Most likely the Expansion speed is fueled by the waves trying to lock in phase maybe like molecular adhesion in the physical world pull each other along basically down a path to more space Entropy. Think of all this as we are gradually being abducted toward MT Space Time. Particle/Waves uncountable all traveling along in their journeys together in a multiple dimensional adherence like Chaos. No matter what direction that particle wave is moving past you this moment, it is heading towards MT, timeless, unending space out there. Imaginations are most likely the only way to see the final outcomes of Expansion Entropy vs. Gravity / Energy / Time. Obviously many conclusions could be drawn. Does it Matter? ha ha hahahahaha!


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Papa Tiger said:


> The future of Energy.
> 
> Think of an alien space as being MT of Energy and Energy leaking into it at an ever increasing rate thus Expansion, Entropy and the beginning of things or the absolute end of all things energy wise. Why is there MT space? Cause its dead cold, lacking all energy. Possibly one might think of it as a vacuum sucking all things Energy, particle/wave toward it. Thus everything at basic is a particle wave moving out to meet up in it. Said another way there is more energy production than Gravity in space time, All energy / Mass being a particle wave basically, thus the loss expands as energy going to the dead space of endless as particle / waves. Endless MT Space, lacking gravity thus time not existing. Most likely all basic particle waves synchronize into a plausible in phase Particle wave eventually recreating mass in physical form. Thus Gravity, magnetic force and all the rest / strong force/weak force making time elastic. All of everything is energy or a huge extreme unmeasurably cold dead space/time lacking MT. Most likely the Expansion speed is fueled by the waves trying to lock in phase maybe like molecular adhesion in the physical world pull each other along basically down a path to more space Entropy. Think of all this as we are gradually being abducted toward MT Space Time. Particle/Waves uncountable all traveling along in their journeys together in a multiple dimensional adherence like Chaos. No matter what direction that particle wave is moving past you this moment, it is heading towards MT, timeless, unending space out there. Imaginations are most likely the only way to see the final outcomes of Expansion Entropy vs. Gravity / Energy / Time. Obviously many conclusions could be drawn. Does it Matter? ha ha hahahahaha!


Did you used to be here as user- Telsa?


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

macmikeman said:


> Did you used to be here as user- Telsa?


No mention of a toner and wand, super duper model hottie McBody girlfriend, or IQ so high that a dog couldn’t hear it.
I’ll say not.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Papa Tiger said:


> The future of Energy.
> 
> Think of an alien space as being MT of Energy and Energy leaking into it at an ever increasing rate thus Expansion, Entropy and the beginning of things or the absolute end of all things energy wise. Why is there MT space? Cause its dead cold, lacking all energy. Possibly one might think of it as a vacuum sucking all things Energy, particle/wave toward it. Thus everything at basic is a particle wave moving out to meet up in it. Said another way there is more energy production than Gravity in space time, All energy / Mass being a particle wave basically, thus the loss expands as energy going to the dead space of endless as particle / waves. Endless MT Space, lacking gravity thus time not existing. Most likely all basic particle waves synchronize into a plausible in phase Particle wave eventually recreating mass in physical form. Thus Gravity, magnetic force and all the rest / strong force/weak force making time elastic. All of everything is energy or a huge extreme unmeasurably cold dead space/time lacking MT. Most likely the Expansion speed is fueled by the waves trying to lock in phase maybe like molecular adhesion in the physical world pull each other along basically down a path to more space Entropy. Think of all this as we are gradually being abducted toward MT Space Time. Particle/Waves uncountable all traveling along in their journeys together in a multiple dimensional adherence like Chaos. No matter what direction that particle wave is moving past you this moment, it is heading towards MT, timeless, unending space out there. Imaginations are most likely the only way to see the final outcomes of Expansion Entropy vs. Gravity / Energy / Time. Obviously many conclusions could be drawn. Does it Matter? ha ha hahahahaha!


Them there are some mighty ornamental words and thoughts. Does them mean anything that we have to be concerned about in our lifetime?


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

Wrong forum/ site.


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