# Solar question



## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

Surge03 said:


> Can someone please tell me if its realy worth paying $30K for a solar system install at my house? They said it would take 20-30 years to get my money back, that doesn't make sense to me. I get a tax credit of $10K so it's realy $20K I'm looking at 25 years until I break even.


Read this http://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2008/03/the-ugly-side-o.html

and also consider that your roof shingles are only good for 20 years also, will they work with all this snow on them.

The payback is 25 years, by then you'll need a new roof and new panels too..


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## Bootss (Dec 30, 2011)

Do not waste your money .expecially if there's nobody home during the day .That's when the Sun is up and you're system is producing power . big deal if you're selling it back to the power companies don't bother.
maybe in 50 years the systems will be better I think you don't want to be a guinea pig


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## Surge03 (Sep 23, 2012)

Lep said:


> Do not waste your money .expecially if there's nobody home during the day .That's when the Sun is up and you're system is producing power . big deal if you're selling it back to the power companies don't bother. maybe in 50 years the systems will be better I think you don't want to be a guinea pig


Thanks, that's what I figured, I see tons of people getting them so I thought maybe it's worth it but I'm a type of person to ask around before I commit to something and get the facts. I didn't even think about the roof being replaced 20 years from now lol


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## Surge03 (Sep 23, 2012)

Black Dog said:


> Read this http://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2008/03/the-ugly-side-o.html and also consider that your roof shingles are only good for 20 years also, will they work with all this snow on them. The payback is 25 years, by then you'll need a new roof and new panels too..


When I try to go to your link it kicks me off.


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

Surge03 said:


> When I try to go to your link it kicks me off.


It could be an illegal link in your state...:laughing:


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## Surge03 (Sep 23, 2012)

Black Dog said:


> It could be an illegal link in your state...:laughing:


Lol I see. I'm in CA figures


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## xpertpc (Oct 11, 2012)

Without any specifics I will guess that a $30k system is 10,000 watts and with an average of 5 hours of insolation in California will make about 50kwh per day.

Using 20 cents per kwh equals $10 per day, the poco generally pays 10 cents over on a grid tie buy back, so during the day when you are not home you are selling them all your power for 30 cents per killowatt but only pay 20 cents for what you buy from them at night. Here the TVA pays 12 cents over rate which is about 10 cents kwh. I don't know how much CA pays but in both KY and WI it has always been 12 cents over.

So if you use no power you will get $450 a month or about 6 years to payback (ROI). If they are telling you 30 years your are talking to a shyster or a leasing company.

Most pocos will require a separate meter that you will pay a monthly fee for, some will subtract what you use from what you make and pay you the net difference, others will pay you a straight price on what you make and bill you separate on what you use. 

What are your monthly electric bill?

I am guessing that a 10kw system costs $15k in parts and $15k for installation, also always re-roof first then the panels will make a 25 year shingle last 50 years.


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## Surge03 (Sep 23, 2012)

xpertpc said:


> Without any specifics I will guess that a $30k system is 10,000 watts and with an average of 5 hours of insolation in California will make about 50kwh per day. Using 20 cents per kwh equals $10 per day, the poco generally pays 10 cents over on a grid tie buy back, so during the day when you are not home you are selling them all your power for 30 cents per killowatt but only pay 20 cents for what you buy from them at night. Here the TVA pays 12 cents over rate which is about 10 cents kwh. I don't know how much CA pays but in both KY and WI it has always been 12 cents over. So if you use no power you will get $450 a month or about 6 years to payback (ROI). If they are telling you 30 years your are talking to a shyster or a leasing company. Most pocos will require a separate meter that you will pay a monthly fee for, some will subtract what you use from what you make and pay you the net difference, others will pay you a straight price on what you make and bill you separate on what you use. What are your monthly electric bill? I am guessing that a 10kw system costs $15k in parts and $15k for installation, also always re-roof first then the panels will make a 25 year shingle last 50 years.


$450 a month sounds to good to be true, can some else on this forum back this guy? You could be a salesmen.


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## xpertpc (Oct 11, 2012)

All states have different incentive and if CA is like FL they always run out of money.

In 2007 a $40k system in Wisconsin broke down kinda like this; this may not be true today.

Federal = 10,000 rebate
State = 10,000 rebate
POCO = 10,000 rebate
Owner = 10,000 payment

The home owner would usually float a $40k short term loan for a year until all the rebates came in.

Here in Kentucky we only get a $1000 rebate from the POCO and a promise from the state that they wont increase your property taxes by the solar improvements worth.

At this time with cheap power I will not be adding to my solar system which can run my refrigerators, computer and lights, and during the high sun of summer my smaller heat-pump in my bedroom for AC.

A new technological breakthrough has just been proven to increase the efficiency of solar voltaic panels from 15% to 45% so I will be waiting a few more years to see how that pans out.


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## Surge03 (Sep 23, 2012)

xpertpc said:


> All states have different incentive and if CA is like FL they always run out of money. In 2007 a $40k system in Wisconsin broke down kinda like this; this may not be true today. Federal = 10,000 rebate State = 10,000 rebate POCO = 10,000 rebate Owner = 10,000 payment The home owner would usually float a $40k short term loan for a year until all the rebates came in. Here in Kentucky we only get a $1000 rebate from the POCO and a promise from the state that they wont increase your property taxes by the solar improvements worth. At this time with cheap power I will not be adding to my solar system which can run my refrigerators, computer and lights, and during the high sun of summer my smaller heat-pump in my bedroom for AC. A new technological breakthrough has just been proven to increase the efficiency of solar voltaic panels from 15% to 45% so I will be waiting a few more years to see how that pans out.


I was told only $10K that included everything so I pay $20K out of pocket and I asked a professional and they calculated on a good day I could make $80 dollars a day so averaged $50 dollars a day.


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## Surge03 (Sep 23, 2012)

Surge03 said:


> I was told only $10K that included everything so I pay $20K out of pocket and I asked a professional and they calculated on a good day I could make $80 dollars a day so averaged $50 dollars a day.


A month NOT a day lol sorry


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## Surge03 (Sep 23, 2012)

Surge03 said:


> I was told only $10K that included everything so I pay $20K out of pocket and I asked a professional and they calculated on a good day I could make $80 dollars a day so averaged $50 dollars a day.


So my return would be around 20 years or more, that did not sell me to purchase it, does this sound about right?


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## xpertpc (Oct 11, 2012)

I was basing assumptions on a $30,000 system which may equal 10,000 watts (you must verify this)

10,000 watts x 5 hours a day = 50,000 watts per day

1 kWh = $0.20

50 kWh x $0.20 = $10 daily

50 kWh x 30 days = 1500 kWh x $0.20 = $300 at your buy price

1500 kWh x $0.30 = $450 monthly at Poco buy price, you need to verify what they pay over rate.

All these numbers are moot without knowing what the array size is in kilowatts and what the poco will pay over rate.


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## xpertpc (Oct 11, 2012)

Are you in California or Canada? what is your electrical rate?



> I asked a professional and they calculated on a good day I could make $80 dollars a month so averaged $50 dollars a month.


In the solar business there is no such thing as "on a good day", professionals use solar insolation tables that provide the average number of usable sun hours on any given day throughout the entire year.

The insolation tables take in account every storm, the amount of cloud cover, or smog based on data from the last 20 years.

$80 a month at the rates that I have been using is only about 2600 watts in panels which is 1/4 of what my size guess was.


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## Surge03 (Sep 23, 2012)

xpertpc said:


> Are you in California or Canada? what is your electrical rate? In the solar business there is no such thing as "on a good day", professionals use solar insolation tables that provide the average number of usable sun hours on any given day throughout the entire year. The insolation tables take in account every storm, the amount of cloud cover, or smog based on data from the last 20 years. $80 a month at the rates that I have been using is only about 2600 watts in panels which is 1/4 of what my size guess was.


In Southern CA


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

Surge03 said:


> Lol I see. I'm in CA figures


Try *this one*...


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## former farmer (Feb 27, 2013)

xpertpc said:


> In 2007 a $40k system in Wisconsin broke down kinda like this; this may not be true today.
> 
> Federal = 10,000 rebate
> State = 10,000 rebate
> ...


Not even close now. No rebates except from Federal. POCO buys at wholesale rate. About $0.035 per kw.


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## Bootss (Dec 30, 2011)

former farmer said:


> Not even close now. No rebates except from Federal. POCO buys at wholesale rate. About $0.035 per kw.


Are the margins in the solar business worth the effort to try to include in a EC's business?


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## Surge03 (Sep 23, 2012)

Lep said:


> Are the margins in the solar business worth the effort to try to include in a EC's business?


So is it worth getting Solar Power? Is there any evidence someone getting paid back in 5 to 10 years? 20 plus years is not worth it to me, I'll be old or dead by that time and some one else will get it paid for by me lol


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## Surge03 (Sep 23, 2012)

lep said:


> are the margins in the solar business worth the effort to try to include in a ec's business?


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## Bootss (Dec 30, 2011)

If you were going to install the system yourself and just buy the materials I'd say go ahead and do it.

but I don't think I'd pay a contractor.


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## xpertpc (Oct 11, 2012)

Surge03 said:


> So is it worth getting Solar Power? Is there any evidence someone getting paid back in 5 to 10 years? 20 plus years is not worth it to me, I'll be old or dead by that time and some one else will get it paid for by me lol


You haven't answered the questions yet, without them there is no answer. I already told how much money a 10,000 watt system would make you using pretend numbers.

Solar installation is big business and pays well, mostly by selling overpriced $30,000 - 2500 watt systems in Southern California. To install that small of system that you kinda imply would pay the contractor $25,000 for only a few days work.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

I know one person who grossed 20 million a couple of years back doing pv systems here like crazy. The boom is over here now, the poco is not issuing 1/3 the permits they did before, cause it has become so common their profits are dropping from it all. So, just like I predicted, suddenly we have a boatload of new ''electrical contractors'' unleashed on the islands who have only performed solar factory installation work and have zero other experience in the trade. 


Craigslist to the rescue........


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## xpertpc (Oct 11, 2012)

Unfortunately the only way to make a PV system payback is to be grid-tied and to be grid-tied it has to be installed by a certified electrician or the poco will pull your meter.

Looking at the OPs numbers I actually thought he may have been in northern Canada and only getting an hour of sun per day - someones got him by the tail.


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## xpertpc (Oct 11, 2012)

former farmer said:


> Not even close now. No rebates except from Federal. POCO buys at wholesale rate. About $0.035 per kw.


Put in a system near Princeton before leaving the state in 2007 that only took 8 years to payback and that was when PV panels were 3 times the cost they are now. It was making on average $125 a month after utility usages.

People must also be 100% aware of their areas state, local, and poco incentives, many have used up their budget imposed on them from the feds. 

WI electric only entered into 10 year contracts for net metering, after that you were kicked to the curb. I'm sure most thought it would just be renewed but as you point out it has probably hit the federal imposed limits and are back on the right end of the screwing stick laughing all the way to the bank buying power back from you at only 1/3rd that of which they sell it back to you a few hours later..


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## Surge03 (Sep 23, 2012)

xpertpc said:


> Put in a system near Princeton before leaving the state in 2007 that only took 8 years to payback and that was when PV panels were 3 times the cost they are now. It was making on average $125 a month after utility usages. People must also be 100% aware of their areas state, local, and poco incentives, many have used up their budget imposed on them from the feds. WI electric only entered into 10 year contracts for net metering, after that you were kicked to the curb. I'm sure most thought it would just be renewed but as you point out it has probably hit the federal imposed limits and are back on the right end of the screwing stick laughing all the way to the bank buying power back from you at only 1/3rd that of which they sell it back to you a few hours later..


So they don't pay you back the cost you pay per KWH? So if I was on vacation and I made more power than poco they won't cut me a check for the power I made at the rate I pay?


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## Bootss (Dec 30, 2011)

Surge03 said:


> So they don't pay you back the cost you pay per KWH? So if I was on vacation and I made more power than poco they won't cut me a check for the power I made at the rate I pay?


you're going to have get the details from your poco on how they pay you, and then you're going to have to run your own numbers


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## former farmer (Feb 27, 2013)

Surge03 said:


> So they don't pay you back the cost you pay per KWH?


Not here in Wisconsin.




Surge03 said:


> So if I was on vacation and I made more power than poco they won't cut me a check for the power I made at the rate I pay?


They will pay you what they can buy wholesale for. Around $0.035 per kwh here.


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## Iron_Ben (Feb 17, 2015)

Some good info on this thread so far, and some not so good. Key point is that reimbursement rates, terms and conditions, etc., vary from state to state, and also from utility to utility within the state. At the POCO in LA where I used to work the homeowner could get tax credits totaling 80% (50 state and 30 federal). So a $25,000 system could be had for only $5,000 effectively. With that huge government contribution, effective payback was usually 7 years or so. When doing the math, if you use 5 hours of sunlight per day you'll be close. So a 10 kw array will make, on average, 50 kwh a day. 

Lastly note that most POCO's, including that one I worked for, don't buy back at anywhere near the same rate, and for good reason. In fact where I retired from we only bought back if you had accumulated a surplus at the time you disconnected service for good. This happened infrequently enough that it was a manual calculation at the time. In rough numbers we were charging 12 or 13 cents per kwh, and the buyback rate was very close to the 3.5 cents per kwh mentioned in a previous post.


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## xpertpc (Oct 11, 2012)

Here are my only incentives beyond the federal credit. A couple of years ago the premium for solar was $0.12. This is why I say you must check your local incentives - and fairly often I guess too.

$1,000 upon installation
Years 1-10: retail electric rate + premium payment
Years 11-20: retail electric rate

2014 Premium Rates:
Solar: $0.04/kWh
Wind, Biomass, and Hydro: $0.03/kWh

So in my area net-metering will buy back from me at $0.14 kWh for 10 years then only pay $0.10 for the next 10 years assuming the rate doesn't go up.


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

Solar is unsustainable financially. 

http://cleantechnica.com/2014/02/09/solar-leasing-vs-0-solar-loan-scenarios-10-states/

Funny thing is that cash purchase is in Cityville 2 finance world where a $30,000 cash can not find any fruitful investment and payback is based on simple payback and assumes that 100 savings of $300 per month is considered paying back. 

But they don't use the same math when the table is turned. Monthly payment actually factors in interest rate. They expect to make money on the interest portion. Handing over your incentives mean them sales companies get a good chunk of their cost back immediately while extending a loan on the markup with interest. 

down payment + loan (euphemistically sold as PPA) = high interest rate 

zero down loan = higher interest rate. 

The latter two do not yield the same return when you calculate them using simple payback, because monthly payments are selected factoring in interest. 

Solar is the game for dealers than end users.


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## xpertpc (Oct 11, 2012)

Here would be the question had it been from my area with the required information:

How long would a $20,000 PV system take to payback that has a total size of 7,000 kWh and the poco pays $0.04 plus the rate of $0.10 for the first 10 years and then rate thereafter? My electric bill shows my usage at 540kwh or 18kwh daily.
p.s. I also get a $1000 tva rebate along with the fed 30% credit.

My answer:
7kwh x 4h = 28kwh total gain, only 4 hours of sun here.
28kwh - 18kwh = 10kwh, net gain
10kwh x $0.14 = $1.40 x 30 = $42 monthly profit
18kwh x $0.10 = $1.80 x 30 = $54 monthly electric bill offset, meaning $0 bill.

$20,000 system
- $1000 rebate
--------------------
$19,000
- 30% fed credit
-----------------------
$13,300 total payment
/ $42+$54 (96)
---------------------------
138 months
/ 12 months
------------------
12 years total payback which includes subtraction for the 1 year after the 4 cent premium expired.

Anybody can buy all the components for the above system including mounting system for about $10,000. One person can put this together inside a week, the wiring would take a day at most.
Besides a ground wire from the roof rack the only wiring from the panels are integral mechanically keyed snap together MC4 connectors that daisy chain all the panels to a single wire or a mix match depending on your system, truly a 5th grader could do this part.


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## xpertpc (Oct 11, 2012)

Electric_Light said:


> Solar is unsustainable financially.
> 
> http://cleantechnica.com/2014/02/09/solar-leasing-vs-0-solar-loan-scenarios-10-states/


Good website, and to be honest the only reason I don't have the grid tied system that I sized for my house above is because I have a Fidelity Mutual fund that historical pays more then $100 a month with only a $10,000 investment, plus I get to keep the principle. However It is a medium risk and can lose it all in a bad day of trading.

My standing 1000 watt non-grid system is really nothing more than a fair weather silent generator and for peace of mind I also added enough batteries for a seamless 24 hours of refrigerator/freezer power in the advent of bad weather before having to fire up the generator.


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## Surge03 (Sep 23, 2012)

xpertpc said:


> You haven't answered the questions yet, without them there is no answer. I already told how much money a 10,000 watt system would make you using pretend numbers. Solar installation is big business and pays well, mostly by selling overpriced $30,000 - 2500 watt systems in Southern California. To install that small of system that you kinda imply would pay the contractor $25,000 for only a few days work.


Ok, here you go.

For $30K I'm suppose to get 
26 panels each panel produces 255 watts
Total of like 700KWH

Poco charges $16.8 cents per KWH

Says I will be paying the solar Co. 15.7 cents per kWh because of financing.

What does over rate mean? Do you mean Tier rate? If u mean tier rate it's 

Tier 2 $25.1 cents
Tier 1 $16.8 cents
Going up 10% for each tier in the summer


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## Surge03 (Sep 23, 2012)

Surge03 said:


> Ok, here you go. For $30K I'm suppose to get 26 panels each panel produces 255 watts Total of like 700KWH Poco charges $16.8 cents per KWH Says I will be paying the solar Co. 15.7 cents per kWh because of financing. What does over rate mean? Do you mean Tier rate? If u mean tier rate it's Tier 2 $25.1 cents Tier 1 $16.8 cents Going up 10% for each tier in the summer


7000 watt system


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## xpertpc (Oct 11, 2012)

I chose Southern California Edison as a poco from your area;

They pay you what you pay them, or about $0.17 kWh produced.
A 7 kwh x 5 hour system will make 35 kwh per day = 12775 kWh /yr and equals $2172 yearly.

$2172 is the maximum you can make only if you don't use a single drop of power, What Edison does is keep track of what you use and what you produce over a full years time, at the end of the year if you made more you will be credited the $0.17 per kWh.

If you use exactly what you produce then you would not have an electric bill so at least you will save $2172 per year in that respect. However if you jump to tier 2 pricing it will cost you more as it seems after around 400 kWh your costs goes up 4 cents and if a 3rd tier it goes up more.

These numbers are based on 100% efficiency, you may only see around 90% in real life depending on inverter type and losses due to high ambient PV temperatures and the slow degradation of PV output, which may drop to only 80% over 20 years.

So in a perfect world and you paid cash, the $20,000 would be paid back in 9.2 years. also note the PV panels you list only equal 6.6 kWh and would take longer.




> Standard NEM
> When your small renewable energy system generates a surplus of energy, the surplus will be credited to your account at the same rate you would have been charged had you purchased the electricity from SCE. If after a 12 month billing period you have net surplus energy, you can apply your overall credit toward future energy charges, or receive a check for the amount due. Under this rate option, domestic accounts are billed once a year for “net” energy consumed or generated over the previous 12 months, if any.
> Read the NEM Rate Schedule


https://www.sce.com/wps/portal/home...nQSEh/?from=/customergeneration/nem-ab920.htm


Many individual cities also have their own incentives - see links

Anaheim may offer $1.25 per installed kilowatt to offset installation costs.
http://www.anaheim.net/article.asp?id=1644

Palo Alto may offer $0.80 per installed kilowatt
http://www.cityofpaloalto.org/gov/depts/utl/residents/sustainablehome/pvpartners.asp

These are from my searches this morning and may have coffee deficit reading comprehension disorder, so take it all with a grain of salt.

This site may offer more info but it seems to be dated with much info only refereing back to 2012.
http://www.dsireusa.org/incentives/index.cfm?re=0&ee=0&spv=0&st=0&srp=1&state=CA

Most of these incentives seem to be for homeowner "owned" systems and not leased.
See the link Electric_Light posted above for system comparisons.


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## xpertpc (Oct 11, 2012)

Surge03 said:


> What does over rate mean?


Rate is what you pay for power, my poco will pay me 4 cents over what I buy from them at.

So right now my rate is $0.10 per kWh, if I produce one kilowatt more then I use they will pay me $0.14 for it, a couple of years ago it was $0.12 over rate and would of paid me $0.22 for each surplus kilowatt I made.

Some pocos in your area may still pay over rate but you would have to check for yourself.


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## Surge03 (Sep 23, 2012)

xpertpc said:


> I chose Southern California Edison as a poco from your area; They pay you what you pay them, or about $0.17 kWh produced. A 7 kwh x 5 hour system will make 35 kwh per day = 12775 kWh /yr and equals $2172 yearly. $2172 is the maximum you can make only if you don't use a single drop of power, What Edison does is keep track of what you use and what you produce over a full years time, at the end of the year if you made more you will be credited the $0.17 per kWh. If you use exactly what you produce then you would not have an electric bill so at least you will save $2172 per year in that respect. However if you jump to tier 2 pricing it will cost you more as it seems after around 400 kWh your costs goes up 4 cents and if a 3rd tier it goes up more. These numbers are based on 100% efficiency, you may only see around 90% in real life depending on inverter type and losses due to high ambient PV temperatures and the slow degradation of PV output, which may drop to only 80% over 20 years. So in a perfect world and you paid cash, the $20,000 would be paid back in 9.2 years. also note the PV panels you list only equal 6.6 kWh and would take longer. https://www.sce.com/wps/portal/home/residential/generating-your-own-power/net-energy-metering/!ut/p/b1/hc_NCoJAFAXgZ2nhMufoQFm7Ec3GQimjbDahYZNgTpglvX0WbaK_uzuX78C9RJCYiDK55DKpc1UmxT2L3sawPDbmEbhlUxfcRhiwOcPEMVuwbgG-DMO__oqIV-KNDAfcXxrRFA6igL6Bed-8A3ca2oYJy3yCgQd37IctWMwoOJ0hiBijQO8JfhzpEyELlT4eXrMypZYkosp2WZVV-rlq1_u6Pp6GGjQ0TaNLpWSR6Vt10PCpslenmsSvkhwPMXLeFem16dwACqNhQQ!!/dl4/d5/L2dBISEvZ0FBIS9nQSEh/?from=/customergeneration/nem-ab920.htm Many individual cities also have their own incentives - see links Anaheim may offer $1.25 per installed kilowatt to offset installation costs. http://www.anaheim.net/article.asp?id=1644 Palo Alto may offer $0.80 per installed kilowatt http://www.cityofpaloalto.org/gov/depts/utl/residents/sustainablehome/pvpartners.asp These are from my searches this morning and may have coffee deficit reading comprehension disorder, so take it all with a grain of salt. This site may offer more info but it seems to be dated with much info only refereing back to 2012. http://www.dsireusa.org/incentives/index.cfm?re=0&ee=0&spv=0&st=0&srp=1&state=CA Most of these incentives seem to be for homeowner "owned" systems and not leased. See the link Electric_Light posted above for system comparisons.


So is the system I'm getting worth it with the financing through the company?


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## Surge03 (Sep 23, 2012)

xpertpc said:


> I chose Southern California Edison as a poco from your area; They pay you what you pay them, or about $0.17 kWh produced. A 7 kwh x 5 hour system will make 35 kwh per day = 12775 kWh /yr and equals $2172 yearly. $2172 is the maximum you can make only if you don't use a single drop of power, What Edison does is keep track of what you use and what you produce over a full years time, at the end of the year if you made more you will be credited the $0.17 per kWh. If you use exactly what you produce then you would not have an electric bill so at least you will save $2172 per year in that respect. However if you jump to tier 2 pricing it will cost you more as it seems after around 400 kWh your costs goes up 4 cents and if a 3rd tier it goes up more. These numbers are based on 100% efficiency, you may only see around 90% in real life depending on inverter type and losses due to high ambient PV temperatures and the slow degradation of PV output, which may drop to only 80% over 20 years. So in a perfect world and you paid cash, the $20,000 would be paid back in 9.2 years. also note the PV panels you list only equal 6.6 kWh and would take longer. https://www.sce.com/wps/portal/home/residential/generating-your-own-power/net-energy-metering/!ut/p/b1/hc_NCoJAFAXgZ2nhMufoQFm7Ec3GQimjbDahYZNgTpglvX0WbaK_uzuX78C9RJCYiDK55DKpc1UmxT2L3sawPDbmEbhlUxfcRhiwOcPEMVuwbgG-DMO__oqIV-KNDAfcXxrRFA6igL6Bed-8A3ca2oYJy3yCgQd37IctWMwoOJ0hiBijQO8JfhzpEyELlT4eXrMypZYkosp2WZVV-rlq1_u6Pp6GGjQ0TaNLpWSR6Vt10PCpslenmsSvkhwPMXLeFem16dwACqNhQQ!!/dl4/d5/L2dBISEvZ0FBIS9nQSEh/?from=/customergeneration/nem-ab920.htm Many individual cities also have their own incentives - see links Anaheim may offer $1.25 per installed kilowatt to offset installation costs. http://www.anaheim.net/article.asp?id=1644 Palo Alto may offer $0.80 per installed kilowatt http://www.cityofpaloalto.org/gov/depts/utl/residents/sustainablehome/pvpartners.asp These are from my searches this morning and may have coffee deficit reading comprehension disorder, so take it all with a grain of salt. This site may offer more info but it seems to be dated with much info only refereing back to 2012. http://www.dsireusa.org/incentives/index.cfm?re=0&ee=0&spv=0&st=0&srp=1&state=CA Most of these incentives seem to be for homeowner "owned" systems and not leased. See the link Electric_Light posted above for system comparisons.


So basically it sounds like I will be paying my normal electric bill until it's payed off 20+ years from now correct? I highly doubt solar panels produce 100% so in a real life I'm basing it on 70%


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## xpertpc (Oct 11, 2012)

Surge03 said:


> So is the system I'm getting worth it with the financing through the company?


I would have to say absolutely one hundred percent NO, it looks like the leasing company gets all the profits while all you get are the bills and at the end of the systems useful life the option to buy it from the shysters.

I merely stated what the possible returns on a cash system could be in a fictitious area, you would have to research your areas government and poco incentive programs, then go to a real solar company and not a leasing company.

Call them up in the phone book and ask if they lease - if they say no then have them give you a quote, if they lease hangup fast. Local companies will know about all the rebates and such.


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## Surge03 (Sep 23, 2012)

xpertpc said:


> I would have to say absolutely one hundred percent NO, it looks like the leasing company gets all the profits while all you get are the bills and at the end of the systems useful life the option to buy it from the shysters. I merely stated what the possible returns on a cash system could be in a fictitious area, you would have to research your areas government and poco incentive programs, then go to a real solar company and not a leasing company. Call them up in the phone book and ask if they lease - if they say no then have them give you a quote, if they lease hangup fast. Local companies will know about all the rebates and such.


They said Its not a lease.


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## Surge03 (Sep 23, 2012)

xpertpc said:


> I would have to say absolutely one hundred percent NO, it looks like the leasing company gets all the profits while all you get are the bills and at the end of the systems useful life the option to buy it from the shysters. I merely stated what the possible returns on a cash system could be in a fictitious area, you would have to research your areas government and poco incentive programs, then go to a real solar company and not a leasing company. Call them up in the phone book and ask if they lease - if they say no then have them give you a quote, if they lease hangup fast. Local companies will know about all the rebates and such.


Financed through the company.


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## xpertpc (Oct 11, 2012)

OK, you already know its a bad deal but yet keep beating a dead horse.

All this payday loan company is doing is having you pay for them to put their solar panels on your roof so they can harvest the power from it - its that simple.

The $10,000 federal credit they got in your name paid for the system in its entirety, so they will never really be out any money.

So in return for the $150 monthly electric production they will keep $100 scot free while allowing you to pay all the fees, extra meter charges, required insurance, and any other fees out of your $50 share, my guess is that 50 may evaporate quickly.

Who will pay for that $3000 inverter if it fails outside of warranty? My guess is it will become $6000 once they install a new one for you. See, I can play devils advocate too.


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## Surge03 (Sep 23, 2012)

xpertpc said:


> OK, you already know its a bad deal but yet keep beating a dead horse. All this payday loan company is doing is having you pay for them to put their solar panels on your roof so they can harvest the power from it - its that simple. The $10,000 federal credit they got in your name paid for the system in its entirety, so they will never really be out any money. So in return for the $150 monthly electric production they will keep $100 scot free while allowing you to pay all the fees, extra meter charges, required insurance, and any other fees out of your $50 share, my guess is that 50 may evaporate quickly. Who will pay for that $3000 inverter if it fails outside of warranty? My guess is it will become $6000 once they install a new one for you. See, I can play devils advocate too.


Thank you, this helps me understand a lot more.


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## Surge03 (Sep 23, 2012)

xpertpc said:


> OK, you already know its a bad deal but yet keep beating a dead horse. All this payday loan company is doing is having you pay for them to put their solar panels on your roof so they can harvest the power from it - its that simple. The $10,000 federal credit they got in your name paid for the system in its entirety, so they will never really be out any money. So in return for the $150 monthly electric production they will keep $100 scot free while allowing you to pay all the fees, extra meter charges, required insurance, and any other fees out of your $50 share, my guess is that 50 may evaporate quickly. Who will pay for that $3000 inverter if it fails outside of warranty? My guess is it will become $6000 once they install a new one for you. See, I can play devils advocate too.


Ok, I don't have $30K in my bank account lol. So what's the best way to get this done if some1 else installed it.


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## xpertpc (Oct 11, 2012)

You do this until the money is available >http://www.electriciantalk.com/f17/solar-nostagia-90913/#post1682945


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

xpertpc said:


> So if you use no power you will get $450 a month or about 6 years to payback (ROI). If they are telling you 30 years your are talking to a shyster or a leasing company.


In addition to burying a part of real cost paid by the Government in the sea, what discount factor are you using in calculations on the remaining portions? 

To say that the government's "imposing" for not having bottomless handouts is :001_huh:

Solar is a Government voucher for the installers so that wealthy homeowners can spend money on buying non essential goods and pay installers in lieu of taxes. It's clearly not financially self supporting and it's no surprise that we're seeing a huge backlash as these spending spiraled out of control and became excessively top heavy. If it was all about "clean energy" and the common good, the Government could source materials in a large lot or at a contract price obtained from competitive pricing like they do with their fleet vehicles. They can pass materials on at-cost and also provide labor at-cost or through a non-profit rather than paying a significant chunk of installation all made at full retail cost one at a time by the homeowner. 

It would still support jobs as the physical work needs to be done. It just cuts away the sales and markup that go with it. Solar Retail Sales is probably one of the biggest barrier that stands in the way of economically sustainable system vs voucher for gadgetry system. 



macmikeman said:


> I know one person who grossed 20 million a couple of years back doing pv systems here like crazy.


They all realize the time value of money, so they want to get paid right away. Meanwhile, payback presented to the customers does not. 



xpertpc said:


> Put in a system near Princeton before leaving the state in 2007 that *only took 8 years* to payback and that was when PV panels were 3 times the cost they are now. It was making on average $125 a month after utility usages.


Are you a solar sales company or a share holder in that industry? 
You can only think like that if you're in a household that has spare $30,000 with no utility value and don't see a day to day difference with or without $30,000 missing. It's the other way around in 99.99% of the time, installers included. They need the immediate cash. 



xpertpc said:


> WI electric only entered into 10 year contracts for net metering, after that you were *kicked to the curb*.


Such a loaded language to describe that the system is simply not subsidizing unaffordable purchases to appear as it is affordable. 



xpertpc said:


> I would have to say absolutely one hundred percent NO, it looks like the leasing company gets *all the profits* while all you get are the bills and at the end of the systems useful life the option to buy it from the shysters.
> 
> I merely stated what the possible returns on a cash system could be in a fictitious area, you would have to research your areas government and poco incentive programs, then go to a real solar company and not a leasing company.


If you were to purchase 30 T bonds, you'd yield returns for nearly zero risk. To have a return, you only count the gains above the treasury bond rate. This assumes you have $30,000 just sitting around doing nothing. For a bank to finance at this rate would be "zero gain", so you'd have to pay more to borrow $30K in the real world. When you calculate a payback, you'd have to look at things like interest expenses saved in using $30K to purchase goods with utility values or paying off interest accruing loans. The interest you'd avoid paying on a new car, or the cash back you'd get from paying cash are opportunity cost of buying solar panels. People pay interest to pay for goods costing more than they can afford cash like a car or a house, because they need/want the functions they provide right now. 



Surge03 said:


> Ok, I don't have *$30K in my bank account lo*l. So what's the best way to get this done if some1 else installed it.


The whole solar rush deal is that everyone wants to get their paws on lump sum payment. Seek advise from a personal finance consultant or an accountant. Not solar salesman or investment adviser who cater to someone who has millions sitting around.


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

xpertpc said:


> You do this until the money is available >http://www.electriciantalk.com/f17/solar-nostagia-90913/#post1682945


Solar should be played for entertainment purposes only, not for investment purposes.


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## xpertpc (Oct 11, 2012)

Electric_Light, I respect you and even agree with much of what you say but can't quote you because quoted quotes don't quote, what's left looks like a script from Gilligan's Island.

I would like to think that I answer a question without being judgmental, most of this thread ran a muck because either information wasn't available or was misunderstood.

Much of the replies were nothing but fiction but even towards the end it was still lacking enough info to be reasonably correct. Hence the reason why I begged off.

I think we all understand tax subsidies and municipal incentives, as the government doesn't make money, all they do is redistribute my money and many others who can't afford a flagrant display of green peace one-upmanship.

The power companies certainly don't want your meager sun gods offering, they look at you as if you just invited them to a Doctor Phibes poodle party - the feds forced it down their throats, which the poco just passes on to the customer and raises the delivery rate.

I'd like to say that any new technical endeavor should be able to stand on its own, but people in general are leery, so the government steps in with their lavish hand and doles out money as if they print it. Mostly because the new products need a jump start and I spend all my money calling into Americans got talent to vote for the water head that just sang the wheel of fortune theme song.

When the Chevy Volt came out I really wanted it but it cost too much, I bought a $25,000 Buick instead, I actually owe $20,000 more on my car then my house. The ensuing $7500 tax credit on the Volt made it in my price range but was too late for me, plus I'd like to see a few model years perfected before jumping into one.

As I said mid-thread I would rather have money in the bank then a PV system, I make more on a $10,000 investment then a $20,000 financed PV system could ever payback, unless of course the market tanks.

I also do what stock brokers say not to do, 4 years ago I bought $10,000 in Kroger at $22 per share, last year I sold it at $46 a share and moved the profits into a stable fund as I am too old to recover from a big loss. I do this on a regular basis.

Most of my investments average 10%+, with the lion share in a 2% money market which is what a T-Bill is paying now, albeit Ts are about as stable as you can get at that rate - I think my first T-Bill was at 6%, but long term CDs back then paid close to the same and as risk free. FDIC insured too.

So in conclusion, we should all answer the OP with a response befitting of the question and let him be adult enough to ask subsequent questions. There is nothing wrong with a forewarning as long as it comes with a genuine helping hand and not to ridicule.


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

In order to help him make decision financially, it'd be best if you answered my question. What discount rate did you use in calculating payback to properly address time value of money? 

He already mentioned he doesn't have $30,000 sitting around. So this means he's going to have to pay in monthly payments. He must now decide if this cash outflaw is best served making solar payments than increasing payments on other interest accruing loans as well as consider other investment options. If he's planning a major purchase, he also should consider the interest expenses associated with paying the ordinary payment amount vs ordinary + what solar monthly payment is. 

SOLAR SALES MAN are specifically trained to make figures look in favor of closing the sale, not in the interest of consumer. If the realistic estimation shows it's not a wise investment, then the answer is pretty simple. No, the solar does not save him $$$.


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## Bootss (Dec 30, 2011)

electric light
I'm a california electrical contractor. I'm considering taking a solar design and sales class. Do you think there's enough profit in the solar business to make it worthwhile?


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## xpertpc (Oct 11, 2012)

Electric_Light said:


> In order to help him make decision financially, it'd be best if you answered my question. What discount rate did you use in calculating payback to properly address time value of money?
> 
> He already mentioned he doesn't have $30,000 sitting around. So this means he's going to have to pay in monthly payments. He must now decide if this cash outflaw is best served making solar payments than increasing payments on other interest accruing loans as well as consider other investment options. If he's planning a major purchase, he also should consider the interest expenses associated with paying the ordinary payment amount vs ordinary + what solar monthly payment is.
> 
> SOLAR SALES MAN are specifically trained to make figures look in favor of closing the sale, not in the interest of consumer. If the realistic estimation shows it's not a wise investment, then the answer is pretty simple. No, the solar does not save him $$$.


Sorry not enough information provided to answer, the previous 50 posts was a lesson in futility. Not all solar PV systems are a rip off, many do payback in a reasonable amount of time and are just as stable if not more so then cash in a mason jar.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Does anybody realize maybe it's just the right thing to do for the environment? What if every single house everywhere had panels? Our plants and infrastuture wouldn't be overloaded with rolling brownouts, peak demand periods. It would greatly cut down on our greenhouse effect. And the more we buy, as with anything, the cost will come down.


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## Surge03 (Sep 23, 2012)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Does anybody realize maybe it's just the right thing to do for the environment? What if every single house everywhere had panels? Our plants and infrastuture wouldn't be overloaded with rolling brownouts, peak demand periods. It would greatly cut down on our greenhouse effect. And the more we buy, as with anything, the cost will come down.


Because it's about money


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

xpertpc said:


> Sorry not enough information provided to answer, the previous 50 posts was a lesson in futility. Not all solar PV systems are a rip off, *many do payback in a reasonable amount of time and are just as stable if not more so then cash in a mason jar*.


You seem like someone with a good grasp of the concept of TVM and know enough to selectively chose not to apply realistic interpretation in the context of solar power. How do you not have enough information to answer the question on which discount rate you used? While we're at it, please explain why you chose this rate. I see people use anything from 3-20%. There's also a time limit to start producing positive cash flow to start enjoying a reasonable amount of savings within the number of years the average people stay at one house. 

Cash in a jar is not a good point of reference and a totally unreasonable comparison. It would lose value by the amount of inflation, but it is liquid that can be dispensed freely in any amount you want. Most of money put into PV is sunk cost, so early withdrawal is not possible. 

Look at page 27 at a table called Table 3. Cost-Benefit Analysis of Cash Flows - 30 years @ 6% Discount Rate
http://digitalcommons.calpoly.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1065&context=agbsp

Real life factor: Solar panels can sustain damage and loss from theft, hail, fire, vandalism, accidents, etc and you're going to want to get them insured. You're also going to have some percentage of system that require service. The added monthly insurance premium and recurring maintenance cost are deducted from the utility savings. 



mcclary's electrical said:


> Does anybody realize maybe it's just the right thing to do for the environment? What if every single house everywhere had panels? Our plants and infrastuture wouldn't be overloaded with rolling brownouts, peak demand periods. It would greatly cut down on our greenhouse effect. And the more we buy, as with anything, the cost will come down.


What happens if there's a wide area fog over? If the grid has to maintain reserve capacity, there's less kWh sold by the utility to allocate fixed cost into, so if everyone had panels, you'll just pay an arm and a leg in kW demand charge and kWh rate. http://www.pge.com/tariffs/tm2/pdf/ELEC_SCHEDS_S.pdf 
If you took the bus to work 4 days a week, but you owned a car to use once a week, you save on gas, but your cost per mile just go up astronomically, because fixed expenses have to get allocated over much less miles. 

Also, power plants can't respond to sudden change in a load, so the power quality will go down as the sudden load shift from passing clouds cause more rapidly changing fluctuations than generating plants can respond so it would require battery banks in substations which gets paid in a form of higher rates.


Table 3. Cost-Benefit Analysis of Cash Flows - 30 years @ 6% Discount Rate
Year,year,System Cost, Gov't handout,Avoided bill, Annual Cash FlowNPV of
Annual Cash
Flow
Cumulative
NPV
0 2011 ($615,825) $0.00 $0.00 ($615,825.00) ($615,825.00) ($615,825.00)
1 2012 $0.00 $184,747.50 $49,555.84 $234,303.34 $221,040.89 ($394,784.11)
2 2013 $0.00 $0.00 $50,299.18 $50,299.18 $44,766.09 ($350,018.02)
3 2014 $0.00 $0.00 $51,053.67 $51,053.67 $42,865.64 ($307,152.38)
4 2015 $0.00 $0.00 $51,819.47 $51,819.47 $41,045.88 ($266,106.50)
5 2016 $0.00 $0.00 $52,596.76 $52,596.76 $39,303.36 ($226,803.14)
6 2017 $0.00 $0.00 $53,385.72 $53,385.72 $37,634.82 ($189,168.31)
7 2018 $0.00 $0.00 $54,186.50 $54,186.50 $36,037.12 ($153,131.20)
8 2019 $0.00 $0.00 $54,999.30 $54,999.30 $34,507.24 ($118,623.95)
9 2020 $0.00 $0.00 $55,824.29 $55,824.29 $33,042.31 ($85,581.64)
10 2021 $0.00 $0.00 $56,661.65 $56,661.65 $31,639.57 ($53,942.07)
11 2022 $0.00 $0.00 $57,511.58 $57,511.58 $30,296.38 ($23,645.69)
*12 2023 $0.00 $0.00 $58,374.25 $58,374.25 $29,010.21 $5,364.52*
13 2024 $0.00 $0.00 $59,249.87 $59,249.87 $27,778.65 $33,143.17
14 2025 $0.00 $0.00 $60,138.61 $60,138.61 $26,599.37 $59,742.54
15 2026 $0.00 $0.00 $61,040.69 $61,040.69 $25,470.15 $85,212.69
16 2027 $0.00 $0.00 $61,956.30 $61,956.30 $24,388.87 $109,601.56
17 2028 $0.00 $0.00 $62,885.65 $62,885.65 $23,353.49 $132,955.05
18 2029 $0.00 $0.00 $63,828.93 $63,828.93 $22,362.07 $155,317.12
19 2030 $0.00 $0.00 $64,786.37 $64,786.37 $21,412.74 $176,729.86
20 2031 $0.00 $0.00 $65,758.16 $65,758.16 $20,503.71 $197,233.56
21 2032 $0.00 $0.00 $66,744.53 $66,744.53 $19,633.27 $216,866.83
22 2033 $0.00 $0.00 $67,745.70 $67,745.70 $18,799.78 $235,666.60
23 2034 $0.00 $0.00 $68,761.89 $68,761.89 $18,001.67 $253,668.28
24 2035 $0.00 $0.00 $69,793.32 $69,793.32 $17,237.45 $270,905.73
25 2036 $0.00 $0.00 $70,840.22 $70,840.22 $16,505.67 $287,411.40
26 2037 $0.00 $0.00 $71,902.82 $71,902.82 $15,804.96 $303,216.36
27 2038 $0.00 $0.00 $72,981.36 $72,981.36 $15,134.00 $318,350.36
28 2039 $0.00 $0.00 $74,076.08 $74,076.08 $14,491.51 $332,841.87
29 2040 $0.00 $0.00 $75,187.22 $75,187.22 $13,876.31 $346,718.18
30 2041 $0.00 $0.00 $76,315.03 $76,315.03 $13,287.22 $360,005.40
TOTALS ($615,825.00) $184,747.50 $1,860,260.98 $360,005.40
Table Notes Analysis Calculations
Annual Inflation 1.50% NPV = $360,005.40
Base Annual Electricity Bill $48,823.49 IRR = 11.91%


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

Lep said:


> electric light
> I'm a california electrical contractor. I'm considering taking a solar design and sales class. Do you think there's enough profit in the solar business to make it worthwhile?


I would say it depends on how trusting and gullible customers are, the economy and the political climate. Government hand outs for solar are getting reduced all over. This includes government assisted buyback guarantee at retail rate. Stores wouldn't make money if they were both buying and selling at retail price. 

As more people become more aware of the political instability in solar energy, I'd think they'd be more wary about dropping their money on solar.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

This is what happens at the end of the boom and now we have 400 new competitors advertising service work for dirt cheap prices on Craigslist.... 

http://www.staradvertiser.com/s?action=login&f=y&id=292859911

The politics of this is sickening. I hope battery powered backup puts Heco right out of business if this is how they are going about things, all the while they make much hulabaloo about ''going green'' and ''climate change'' in their public announcements.


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## Bootss (Dec 30, 2011)

One more Electric Light

What pv panel/ inverter supplier would you use.
The local permitting departments require a set of Prints ,you know what a typical set of prints for solar installation would consist of.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Surge03 said:


> Can someone please tell me if its realy worth paying $30K for a solar system install at my house? They said it would take 20-30 years to get my money back, that doesn't make sense to me. I get a tax credit of $10K so it's realy $20K I'm looking at 25 years until I break even.


No, it is not worth it.


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

Lep said:


> One more Electric Light
> 
> What pv panel/ inverter supplier would you use.


I have no idea. All I am saying is that solar is not self-supporting under ordinary conditions and getting a payback within the useful lifetime requires Government handouts or hand holding and resources to make that happen is tapping out. So, it's all about the political climate.


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## xpertpc (Oct 11, 2012)

Electric_Light said:


> Table Notes Analysis Calculations
> Annual Inflation 1.50% NPV = $360,005.40
> Base Annual Electricity Bill $48,823.49 IRR = 11.91%


show me that fund you speak of, 

solar pv works because power costs only go up and never down. EVER.

I pay 10 cents per kwh and makes no sense for me but those paying 25 cents seems like a good deal and does pay back - of course with no payday loan percentage.

I made $5000 in one day because Greece acquiesced, but that doesn't happen none too often. To the chagrin of my broker I moved it to my cash account for a previous loss, I also know that by IRS rules I can't buy back in for another 90 days without paying capital gains.

edit, could be more than 90 days but dont care, got 12" of snow o tuesday and covered by 3" of ice friday and the fan hit the plop.


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## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

I put solar on my house about six years ago. I did it as an investment that would pay for itself and save me money over time. For me it paid off and was paid for in four years. At the time the federal and state government paid for a third of it. 

My cost was $11,000.00 for a 5,000 watt system that only covers half of my electric needs. That price was for the panels, racking and the inverter. The rest of the materials and permits were probably another $500. I installed them myself with two co-workers help.

I had an Excell spread sheet that I made up. I put my meter readings in it once a month. This sheet was loaded with formulas from the cost of electricity to the average temperature and daylight. It had a countdown for the cost, and it took four years. It would have taken less. When Gov. Christi got elected he changed the dynamics. The SREC credits went from $600 a credit to $50. I get six credits a year. They came back to around $150.

To the OP your cost seem excessively high. I would not think it is worth it.


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## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

Lep said:


> One more Electric Light
> 
> What pv panel/ inverter supplier would you use.
> The local permitting departments require a set of Prints ,you know what a typical set of prints for solar installation would consist of.



My town also required a drawing with a structural engineer or architect's stamp on it. I tried to do it myself and had drawn it up with weight calculations. They would not accept it. I got a Craig's list architect to review and stamp them for $200.00.

There was quite a few of us putting solar on our houses, and my town was the only one requiring the stamped drawings.

I don't remember the town bothering with electrical drawings. It was a state system they had set up for the incentives and inspections. They reviewed it more than the town.


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## Surge03 (Sep 23, 2012)

cabletie said:


> I put solar on my house about six years ago. I did it as an investment that would pay for itself and save me money over time. For me it paid off and was paid for in four years. At the time the federal and state government paid for a third of it. My cost was $11,000.00 for a 5,000 watt system that only covers half of my electric needs. That price was for the panels, racking and the inverter. The rest of the materials and permits were probably another $500. I installed them myself with two co-workers help. I had an Excell spread sheet that I made up. I put my meter readings in it once a month. This sheet was loaded with formulas from the cost of electricity to the average temperature and daylight. It had a countdown for the cost, and it took four years. It would have taken less. When Gov. Christi got elected he changed the dynamics. The SREC credits went from $600 a credit to $50. I get six credits a year. They came back to around $150. To the OP your cost seem excessively high. I would not think it is worth it.


Not every1 can install it themselves, so would you say it's worth it if you had to pay a contractor to install it? Here in CA a 5-7KwPV system runs around 30K installed.


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## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

I don't see how it could be worth it if it takes 30 years to pay off. My Sharp solar panels are warrantied for 20 years and the sunny boy inverter is less than that. I thought I remember that the output loses 2% a year. What is left after 30 years? 

I also had help with all the paperwork, shading analysis and a good deal on the material through this non profit.

http://www.americansolarpartners.com/index.php


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

xpertpc said:


> show me that fund you speak of,
> 
> solar pv works because power costs only go up and never down. EVER.


What fund? Those figures came from the PDF I linked. Cents per kWh going up isn't really an increase except for the portion beyond inflation rate. Solar PV barely works, because the Government is paying for it or the local power rate is anomaly high. 



xpertpc said:


> I pay 10 cents per kwh and makes no sense for me but those paying 25 cents seems like a good deal and does pay back - of course with no payday loan percentage.


10 cents/kWh is closer to the typical value. 25 cent and higher are based on higher tier rate used by SDGE, PG&E and like as a form of excise tax. Solar pushers like this as it makes it look favorable for solar marketing. You still haven't made clear what percent discount rate you use to properly factor in expenses(insurance, maintenance), time value of money and risk (withdrawal of Government funded subsidy and payment going to market rate wholesale rate). 



> I made $5000 in one day because Greece acquiesced, but that doesn't happen none too often. To the chagrin of my broker I moved it to my cash account for a previous loss, I also know that by IRS rules I can't buy back in for another 90 days without paying capital gains.


Suffice to say you know enough about investments and finance to know you need to use discounted cash flow, but you're kind of dodging the topic of time value of money when we talk about solar payback. 

Why don't solar installers let you pay the cash price over 9.4 years in payments instead of lump sump? 113 payments of $100 is $11,300 by their own logic :thumbup:



cabletie said:


> I put solar on my house about six years ago. I did it as an investment that would pay for itself and *save me money over time. *For me it paid off and was paid for in four years. At the time the federal and state government paid for a third of it.
> 
> My cost was $11,000.00 for a 5,000 watt system that only covers half of my electric needs. That price was for the panels, racking and the inverter. The rest of the materials and permits were probably another $500. I installed them myself with two co-workers help.


To save money over time, the savings must exceed the opportunity cost. 
Someone with debt requires a higher payback rate to save money. You have debt (car payments, credit cards, student loan), a lump sump payment of $11,000 would shed some interest expenses. 

Grossly simplified to show concept: 
If you would've saved $1,500 in interest expenses by paying a $11,000 lump sump payment, but you bought a solar system instead that saves $1,000 after breaking even in the same time frame,you lost $500. 




cabletie said:


> I don't see how it could be worth it if it takes 30 years to pay off. My Sharp solar panels are warrantied for 20 years and the sunny boy inverter is less than that. I thought I remember that the output loses 2% a year. What is left after 30 years?


A payback period that long is generally reserved for Governments. You're asking very good questions and staying i touch with the reality.  

I believe the reason for so much variation in the rate used for "discounted cash flow" is that there are different ways of viewing risk. A certain percentage of them will fail outside of warranty, degrade and become damaged due to accidents, acts of God, etc. So, insurance premium would have to be deducted from the savings and issues not covered under the policy would have to be factored into choosing the discount rate needed. 

The ROI calculations used for solar sales to homeowners ignore those.


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

http://www.dailyfinance.com/2014/06/11/is-your-credit-card-debt-average/

Credit cards are usually in double digit APR and the average American has a four figure credit card debt. 

Solar purchase should be avoided unless you owe absolutely zero on credit cards. Solar gives you no utility value (the only value is bill offset), so paying off credit cards will always have a better ROI.

Solar sales, payday loan lenders, etc are fully aware of time value of money and they both know that cash flow is gold. If the commission and markup can be fully deferred for the full payback period for zero interest, they wouldn't show interest in selling solar. 

Payday advance seeks large interest for large mark up for immediate cash. 

Energy sales companies simply assign themselves zero interest payday loan in essence, because solar panels have no utility other than reducing the billable kWh and do not provide useful functions. So, the purchase of solar system gives energy sales people a cash advance for which the installed product pays back the lender very little at a time for a very long time.

Sales people setup presentations to convince people believe something is a good deal and mocks your money as something that's sitting around in the corner unused but all he wants is to be able to walk out with it now and today. 

Most people value cash flow and liquidity. Solar is a great way to lock away money that you likely need soon and force you to borrow it, because you can't unlock the locked money. So, if you're someone who can see $10,000 to $30,000 the same way an average American sees as a quarter in his pocket, solar could possibly potentially work out.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

xpertpc said:


> Here would be the question had it been from my area with the required information:
> 
> How long would a $20,000 PV system take to payback that has a total size of 7,000 kWh and the poco pays $0.04 plus the rate of $0.10 for the first 10 years and then rate thereafter? My electric bill shows my usage at 540kwh or 18kwh daily.
> p.s. I also get a $1000 tva rebate along with the fed 30% credit.
> ...


I would disagree with some of what you said. If he is asking these simple questions how is he going to know what to buy? How will he know how to size his strings? What inverter to buy? Snapping MC connectors together is far from wiring a solar system. There is grounding of the system, conductor and breaker sizing not to mention the rules for dwellings and PV systems. I've wire a few systems and never have I seen a single wire PV panel, they all have a + and -. That's two if you only have one string. You didn't talk about rapid shutdown relays as required by 2014 NEC. Not one person has talked about inverter replacement( they have a 7 year average life). A 7kW system for $10,000. I don't think he will be able to find that pricing at 7000 watts.


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## Surge03 (Sep 23, 2012)

Electric_Light said:


> http://www.dailyfinance.com/2014/06/11/is-your-credit-card-debt-average/ Credit cards are usually in double digit APR and the average American has a four figure credit card debt. Solar purchase should be avoided unless you owe absolutely zero on credit cards. Solar gives you no utility value (the only value is bill offset), so paying off credit cards will always have a better ROI. Solar sales, payday loan lenders, etc are fully aware of time value of money and they both know that cash flow is gold. If the commission and markup can be fully deferred for the full payback period for zero interest, they wouldn't show interest in selling solar. Payday advance seeks large interest for large mark up for immediate cash. Energy sales companies simply assign themselves zero interest payday loan in essence, because solar panels have no utility other than reducing the billable kWh and do not provide useful functions. So, the purchase of solar system gives energy sales people a cash advance for which the installed product pays back the lender very little at a time for a very long time. Sales people setup presentations to convince people believe something is a good deal and mocks your money as something that's sitting around in the corner unused but all he wants is to be able to walk out with it now and today. Most people value cash flow and liquidity. Solar is a great way to lock away money that you likely need soon and force you to borrow it, because you can't unlock the locked money. So, if you're someone who can see $10,000 to $30,000 the same way an average American sees as a quarter in his pocket, solar could possibly potentially work out.


After reading everyone's replys it seems to me that Solar Energy is to expensive for it to be worth it. Looks to me if you purchased the equipment and installed it yourself I guess it could be worth it untill you have to replace the 5-10K inverter. Almost like when leds bulbs were $50 a bulb and now there around $10, all the bullcrap saying they will last 20 years is croc of ****.


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

Surge03 said:


> After reading everyone's replys it seems to me that Solar Energy is to expensive for it to be worth it. Looks to me if you purchased the equipment and installed it yourself I guess it could be worth it untill you have to replace the 5-10K inverter. Almost like when leds bulbs were $50 a bulb and now there around $10, all the bullcrap saying they will last 20 years is croc of ****.


You need an extended warranty and insurance to cover losses due to power surge, hail, etc. These cost have to be rolled into the cost of ownership, thus requiring an even higher revenue stream to be financially sustainable. 

PV solar is rich people's toy and bread and butter of the toy industry who feed the man toy industry. In contract, Mattel makes money from selling toys geared towards children. The difference is that who pays for it. 

Usually, Mattel toys are paid out of pocket by parents. PV solar toys are generally paid in significant portions by you and I through taxes.


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## Electronv (Mar 9, 2015)

1. The average ROI for a PV system in the US is 3-5 years. Unless your panels are orientated north, you have an inadequately sized system, or it is designed improperly, you will be within this range +/- 2 years. 

2. In 20 years when your roof shingles need to be replaced, you dont need new panels. The panels and racking system can be removed and reinstalled. However, your roof shingles will last longer with the protection from panels and racking system.

Source: PV installer/Electrician and Published research in photovoltaics.


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## Electronv (Mar 9, 2015)

Also, benefits of purchasing the system far outweigh leasing.


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