# Simplex FACP problems..



## 480sparky

Divide and conquer.

Map out the circuit, then remove half of the circuit from the panel. If the problem persists, it's between you and the panel. If it goes away, it's between you and the EOLR.

Keep breaking the circuit down into smaller & smaller segments until you locate the offending cable or device.


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## bduerler

Black4Truck said:


> I have a Simplex model 4001 FACP.. about (18) years old.
> 
> I keep getting intermittent trouble signal.. GROUND TROUBLE
> 
> The books say "any circuit shorts to earth" :blink:
> 
> Anyone have any ideas where to start looking.. the (4) zone lights don't show any trouble.


oh wow i just changed out that exact panel not to long ago. well on a ground fault for fire alarm is just put your meter on ohms and the lower the number the closer you are. im pretty sure you know how to trouble shoot. the easiest way to to determine where a ground fault may be is to pull one zone off at a time and see if it clears also make sure to pull the NAC circuits off to one at a time of course, once the ground fault signal clears and you have determined the zone or circuit, its all trouble shooting with the meter from there. good luck i hoped this helped


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## bduerler

480sparky said:


> Divide and conquer.
> 
> Map out the circuit, then remove half of the circuit from the panel. If the problem persists, it's between you and the panel. If it goes away, it's between you and the EOLR.
> 
> Keep breaking the circuit down into smaller & smaller segments until you locate the offending cable or device.


this also works well but not for me like i said i have an easier time by removing the circuits one at a time


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## B4T

To start with, I don't know which circuit is causing the ground fault.

It is intermittent.. will cause a trouble for (5) minutes and clear itself.

Go for a full week.. no problems, then out of the blue.. ground fault again


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## 480sparky

Black4Truck said:


> To start with, I don't know which circuit is causing the ground fault.
> 
> It is intermittent.. will cause a trouble for (5) minutes and clear itself.
> 
> Go for a full week.. no problems, then out of the blue.. ground fault again



Then use dbuerlers suggestion..... remove one circuit at a time until you locate the offending one.


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## B4T

480sparky said:


> Then use dbuerlers suggestion..... remove one circuit at a time until you locate the offending one.


Yes.. that will work, but I hate to leave a zone disconnected for a week


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## bduerler

Black4Truck said:


> To start with, I don't know which circuit is causing the ground fault.
> 
> It is intermittent.. will cause a trouble for (5) minutes and clear itself.
> 
> Go for a full week.. no problems, then out of the blue.. ground fault again


i hate ground faults and you cant fix it if its not in trouble. your best bet would be to pull every wire in the panel one at a time and see if it clears and if it does put the wire back in its terminal and see if it comes back. also meter from the panel for the EOL resistor and see if anything jumps on the meter if i remember i believe the resistor is a 3.9 k i think its been so long since i worked on a grinnell panel


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## bduerler

Black4Truck said:


> Yes.. that will work, but I hate to leave a zone disconnected for a week


just red tag it:thumbup: that always puts me in a good mood:laughing:


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## drsparky

Ground comes and goes? I thinking water. You may be able to narrow it down to possible water sources. Leaking water pipe, roof leaks, air conditioner not draining properly. If you know the route of the cables look for stained ceiling tiles.


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## bduerler

drsparky said:


> Ground comes and goes? I thinking water. You may be able to narrow it down to possible water sources. Leaking water pipe, roof leaks, air conditioner not draining properly. If you know the route of the cables look for stained ceiling tiles.


you know it could also be a loose wire in a 4-0 box thats happened to me before had a ground fault on a brand new system and by the grace of god the first heat detector i pulled down had one of the wires off the terminal laying against the 4-0 box it was an easy $75 :thumbup::laughing:


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## 480sparky

Simple solution: Repull all the cabling, and slobber it all with 3M Skotchcote! :laughing: And be sure to bury all the j-boxes! :whistling2:


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## bduerler

480sparky said:


> Simple solution: Repull all the cabling, and slobber it all with 3M Skotchcote! :laughing: And be sure to bury all the j-boxes! :whistling2:


amen to that:laughing: hell while your at it might as well put in a whole new system:thumbup:


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## B4T

480sparky said:


> Simple solution: Repull all the cabling, and slobber it all with 3M Skotchcote! :laughing: And be sure to bury all the j-boxes! :whistling2:


That would solve the moisture problem from a leaky pipe :thumbup:


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## bduerler

so how did this panel turn out??? you figure out the ground fault?


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## B4T

bduerler said:


> so how did this panel turn out??? you figure out the ground fault?


I re-connected the panel on Saturday.. trouble free so far


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## bduerler

Black4Truck said:


> I re-connected the panel on Saturday.. trouble free so far


crap thats no good when it comes to fixin it


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## B4T

bduerler said:


> crap thats no good when it comes to fixin it


Nope.. and I know it will start beeping when I can't get there


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## bduerler

Black4Truck said:


> Nope.. and I know it will start beeping when I can't get there


yea sadly thought thats how these things work


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## leland

New batteries? You'd be surprised. I have found many with no signs,but leaking.
Start with anything outside. annunciator/strobe/master box etc. any work done around the building.NEW ROOF.....


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## B4T

leland said:


> New batteries? You'd be surprised. I have found many with no signs,but leaking.
> Start with anything outside. annunciator/strobe/master box etc. any work done around the building.NEW ROOF.....


 
I will try new batteries.. worth a shot and you never know.....


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## leland

Been away a few days (Miss me? :jester

Another way is to disconnect the wires from each I/O board- Lt is set for a bit- a few minutes- the fault should go away.
When you find the board with the fault,see what is on it- go from there.:thumbsup:


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## cobra50

Call AFA....:thumbup:


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## B4T

cobra50 said:


> Call AFA....:thumbup:


What is AFA?? :blink:


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## leland

Black4Truck said:


> What is AFA?? :blink:



Who-not what-

An alarm company that they work for- National-
they have some very talented people- but most are one dimensional- not that electrically inclined.

Not that you are Cobra! to be clear.:thumbsup:

Thats all they do- better off struggling thru and learning.


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## B4T

leland said:


> Thats all they do- better off struggling thru and learning.


That is how I learned everything else.. the problem here is just compounded because it is intermittent 

First time is always a learning experience and this is my first ground fault.. only took (20) years of doing alarm systems


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## leland

GF's are the worst problem to find.
reason being: most are intermittent.

I've found them in horns near doors that are slamming all day to duct smokes for AHU's that rarely run, Found one this way. on a back up unit in a data center. they never told me (when asked) that it only happens when unit 6 comes on.to breakdowns in the solder on the board.

They suck no doubt! Most customers don't understand why you must return again and again.
If it is not in fault when you are there. You will NEVER find it.


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## bduerler

leland said:


> GF's are the worst problem to find.
> reason being: most are intermittent.
> 
> I've found them in horns near doors that are slamming all day to duct smokes for AHU's that rarely run, Found one this way. on a back up unit in a data center. they never told me (when asked) that it only happens when unit 6 comes on.to breakdowns in the solder on the board.
> 
> They suck no doubt! Most customers don't understand why you must return again and again.
> If it is not in fault when you are there. You will NEVER find it.


agree with you on that one, about the customers and the fault itself are both a pains in the ass


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