# Bus bar melted



## Electric Universe CA (Apr 30, 2014)

Changed the bus bar on this Murray Panel. Took me a few days to find a replacement. Looks like it has been replaced in the past. It was a Murray Semi-Flush Underground Residential Panel with 200AMP main. Normally I suggest a panel upgrade, but this panel was installed inside of some major wood paneling, that I did not want to mess with....
I think the previous "electrician" put a 125amp rated bus bar, which caused all this melting!


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## Electric Universe CA (Apr 30, 2014)

Sorry for the huge picture! I did not know how to resize it or to edit my post!


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Did it have a red main breaker?


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## Electric Universe CA (Apr 30, 2014)

It had an 200 MP-T Type Breaker.










The 125AMP breaker that you see in the Picture was buzzing and arcing. It is controlling a ZINSCO TYPE sub-panel...I am guessing way more overloaded and breakers not tripping....


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

Electric Universe CA said:


> It had an 200 MP-T Type Breaker. The 125AMP breaker that you see in the Picture was buzzing and arcing. It is controlling a ZINSCO TYPE sub-panel...I am guessing way more overloaded and breakers not tripping....


Most likely loose and dirty connections.


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## Wireless (Jan 22, 2007)

Bkessler said:


> Most likely loose and dirty connections.


Most likely a Murray panel!


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Electric Universe CA said:


> Changed the bus bar on this Murray Panel. Took me a few days to find a replacement. Looks like it has been replaced in the past. It was a Murray Semi-Flush Underground Residential Panel with 200AMP main. Normally I suggest a panel upgrade, but this panel was installed inside of some major wood paneling, that I did not want to mess with....
> I think the previous "electrician" put a 125amp rated bus bar, which caused all this melting!


You did not mention that you replaced all of the breakers as well as the wiring attached to them.......Did you?


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## Electric Universe CA (Apr 30, 2014)

Of course I replaced all the breakers. They were all melted. It was a pure fire hazard...


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

It's only doomed to fail again, after all , it's a Murray and Murray is junk.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

If it took a few days to find a replacement bus bar, maybe that should tell you something. Most guys would replace the panel.


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## Electric Universe CA (Apr 30, 2014)

99cents said:


> If it took a few days to find a replacement bus bar, maybe that should tell you something. Most guys would replace the panel.


Not all customers have the budget to replace the whole panel. In this case the damage of the wood panel where the panel is surfaced would be too big.


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## NacBooster29 (Oct 25, 2010)

The thing about doing what you have done. Is you've created a non listed panel . You cannot in most cases swap bussing in a ul. Approved panel and maintain the listing. 
Does is work ? Yes . 
Is it safe? Maybe.
If there is a problem down the line guess who is gonna be on the hook? You, your insurance company . 
I'm not discouraging creative problem solving. But at the end of the day. This may not be the best solution.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Electric Universe CA said:


> Not all customers have the budget to replace the whole panel. In this case the damage of the wood panel where the panel is surfaced would be too big.


I would have sold the safety aspects of the panel change and, if the customer was still too cheap to budget for it, see ya later.


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## Djcubinlinx (Dec 21, 2013)

Looks more like bad breakers. Or well used. When large load is put on the breakers and where it clamps the buss is a bad connection, it will cause arching. That's what it looks like to me, IMO. I've seen something similar but not to this extent. Good luck


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## Spark Master (Jul 3, 2012)

That is true. The panel is no longer UL approved. We even replace panels when there are 30 EMT's going into the panel, just because we cannot replace bus bars.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

I cant believe how many backyard quarterbacks we have on this site! The guy made a good repair, got everything back up and running, and he did it on the customers budget, and he got paid - sounds like a winner to me.

Some of you guys act like you run away and hide under your bed everytime a job like this comes around. CRAP MAN!! Sometimes you just gotta make it happen. Dont be scared to make a couple bucks.


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

What is the budget? How much did your repair cost them? In my area most panel change outs would cost less than $1500.


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## crazyboy (Nov 8, 2008)

Cutler has retrofit gut kits. Probably would've been worth going that route.


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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

crazyboy said:


> Cutler has retrofit gut kits. Probably would've been worth going that route.


I think those are only for interior load centers, not 3R panels.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Guy put a new panel board in a cabinet, oh no :laughing:


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## crazyboy (Nov 8, 2008)

Cow said:


> I think those are only for interior load centers, not 3R panels.


Doh!


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## Spark Master (Jul 3, 2012)

Every panel job we do gets inspected.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

Jlarson said:


> Guy put a new panel board in a cabinet, oh no :laughing:


I know right? He had to put 2 new screw holes in a steel tub! He not qualified. Call the UL police!!!

Bunch of sissy marys on here.


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## [email protected] (Jun 10, 2014)

Cuttler hammer now offers bolt in replacments just take the dimensions of the old enclosure all stripped bare and talk to the rep they you could give them a respectable panel and not have to bust up the wood


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## woodchuck2 (Sep 18, 2009)

I have seen the Murray panels melt down, commonly with the red breaker but i have seen a few 150amp and 200amp black breakers do it too. One i did about 15yrs ago was still live when i got to it and was dripping plastic, arcing and smoking when i went into the basement. This was in a small town of about 200 people on a Saturday and the little hardware store in Town just happened to have a old 200 amp panel kicking around. No way was able to even think about re-using the enclosure due to rust and damage. Several circuits had to be cut back, put in junction boxes and then rewired into the new panel. This customer went from a Murray to an old Square-D QO panel. Probably the closest i have ever come to seeing a building catch fire from a power source.


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## Aldo Moretti (Aug 29, 2011)

CFL said:


> What is the budget? How much did your repair cost them? In my area most panel change outs would cost less than $1500.


I have on many occasions had to replace the guts of Zinsco panels. I do this when the panel is a small meter/main combo flush mounted in stucco on exterior walls.
Zinsco panels are notorious for pitted bus bars, and that pitting is what causes the flickering and tripping of breakers.
Zinsco panels are small, and most of the time they are full, but I have on occasions found a pitted bus bar on one breaker, and simply bought a new breaker and placed it in a spare slot.
I buy the replacement bus bars from an "electrical junkie", he has a warehouse full of old and new electrical parts. He has been accumulating his inventory for decades, and was a former electrical contractor himself, he really knows electrical. 
His name is Kurt Allemand and his shop is in Ronhert Park CA.
Kurt told me that if a person exercises the Zinsco breakers only once per year, that it will help prevent the pitting, he said that every time the breaker is opened and closed, it actually makes contact in a slightly different location on the bus.
But, since Zinsco breakers are also slow or no blow, when people overload them is when the pitting happens.
I did not know that replacing the bus and breakers would de-rate the panel, but Zinsco breakers and panels with their aluminum bus bars should have been de-rated as soon as they were installed.
Personally, I would rather spend $225 on a bus bar than replace the whole panel for my customers. Often times to replace the whole meter/main combo would cost well over $3,000 considering all the work and permit costs, and getting a business license in that city. 
I guess it depends on how much work one is wanting to do to fix the problem, but , I only work for long time customers and I will do my best to save them money and myself work, especially in a critical emergency situation.


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## Warren-Homeowner (7 mo ago)

Electric Universe CA said:


> Not all customers have the budget to replace the whole panel. In this case the damage of the wood panel where the panel is surfaced would be too big.


 Do you mind if I ask where you found the replacement bus? I have a similar problem with a Murray panel.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

Warren-Homeowner said:


> Do you mind if I ask where you found the replacement bus? I have a similar problem with a Murray panel.


Are you a home owner?


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Warren-Homeowner said:


> Do you mind if I ask where you found the replacement bus? I have a similar problem with a Murray panel.


That poster hasn’t been here since 2014


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Do yourself a favor and replace the whole panel.


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

Warren-Homeowner said:


> Do you mind if I ask where you found the replacement bus? I have a similar problem with a Murray panel.


Thanks for posting on ElectricianTalk.com, however, working with electricity and electrical systems can be unsafe and even deadly if not done by a qualified professional electrician*. 

The moderators of this site advise you contact a professional electrician in your area*.

If you are permitted by law to do your own electrical work, you’re invited to join for free on our sister site, www.DIYChatroom.com where we have an Electrical section and plenty of pros to assist.

We apologize for any inconvenience that this may have caused.

This thread has been closed.


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