# Contractor vs. Master



## Podagrower (Mar 16, 2008)

In FL at least, whoever's name is on the permit is responsible. Anybody can sue anybody, but in the eyes of the law, the license holder is the contractor.


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## waco (Dec 10, 2007)

My guess is whoever has the best lawyer, but the contractor is ultimately responsible for supervision -- in other words, who ever is supervising is first responsible. If you are supervising, then I'd say you are responsible, no matter the endorsement.

This is my opinion, not based on any first hand experience regarding this exact matter.


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

Well if it came to legal liability it would come down to the license holder, he would be the one to be fined or have his license pulled for substandard work.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Every state is different. In NY and PA there are NO "contractors" licenses, and only masters licenses in certain areas that require them. 
Other than that you can show up in front of someone's house in a Subaru Outback grab your tools and start working.
To be a legit "business" you do have to file with the county and establish a DBA or Inc.. Even this is not "required".

So to answer your question, I don't even know what "_endorsing my company's electrical contractors license with my masters_" means, so I am afraid I can be of no help.


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## fisher8064 (Sep 7, 2008)

*Michigan law*

In Michigan the laws changed to prevent a master from sitting at home pulling permits for as many contractors as he wanted and never inspecting or supervising the work being performed.

A company needing to pull electrical permits has to hire a full-time master electrician. Test for a electrical contractors license. When the application for the contractor's is sent in with the masters license # and a notorized letter from the master stating that he\she is residing in the state and actively in charge of work performed to ensure code requirements are met. Then the contractors license is issued.

A master cannot be the contractor unless he\she owns the company.

A master can only endorse one contractor.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Why bother with two separate licenses. That seems stupid. 
Why not just have a master's license that can have an upgrade to "contractor". 
Or why bother with the contractor's license at all??? If you are a master you can automatically be a contractor. The term "contractor" is more of a business title, such as incorporating or being a DBA.

Seems like just more of a paper trail generated by local government.


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## fisher8064 (Sep 7, 2008)

Speedy Petey said:


> Why bother with two separate licenses. That seems stupid.
> Why not just have a master's license that can have an upgrade to "contractor".
> Or why bother with the contractor's license at all??? If you are a master you can automatically be a contractor. The term "contractor" is more of a business title, such as incorporating or being a DBA.
> 
> Seems like just more of a paper trail generated by local government.


This is the new Michigan law.


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## waco (Dec 10, 2007)

I agree with Podagrower, in general. The permit holder is ultimately responsible, but in general work where permits are not issued, I'd say the responsibility falls on whomever is supervising the work


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

If something were to happen to an apprentice, I am sure you both would be held responsible.


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## nap (Dec 26, 2007)

You guys are mixing apples and oranges here.

There is a difference between legal liability and professional liability.

In Michigan, we have some odd rules but they are our rules and we must abide by them.

In Michigan, there must be a "master electrician" on staff at any EC to oversee the standards of work. He is liable to the state for all electrical installations permitted under his masters license. He is responsible for the quality of the work and and following Michigan electrical code.

That does not necessarily make him legally liable although it does seriously involve him to a point that _may_ make him liable for injury caused by work performed under him. That ends up with the lawyers.

as to the apprentice working on his own; this is illegal per Michigan law and the apprentice could actually be arrested for working in this situation. The inspector does have the power to have the person arrested if he is performing work contrary to Michigan law. (I knew a guy that was threatened with being arrested if he ever came back to Michigan to work without having his JW license since he was working alone on a job. Mind you, this guy had 30 years in the trade but simply would not test for the JW license)

The master elec is not liable for the business aspect and business liabilities. That still falls on the EC.




> Speedy Petey Why bother with two separate licenses. That seems stupid.
> Why not just have a master's license that can have an upgrade to "contractor".
> Or why bother with the contractor's license at all??? If you are a master you can automatically be a contractor. The term "contractor" is more of a business title, such as incorporating or being a DBA


.There is a test for contractors in Michigan. Following your thoughts here, a master can become a contractor due to the minimum amount of requirements to be a contractor but that does not mean a contractor is a master electrician, who knows the codes. A business person is not necessarily a tradesman so Michigan requires the master to vouch for the quality of the work.


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## John (Jan 22, 2007)

In VT a master is responsible for all work that is done that he/she was contracted to do. So if you pull the permit, do the work or supervise the work, you are ultimately held accountable for anything that happens.
There have been some threads on this site and others that have talked about “Selling or loaning “your license for a fee. NFW man!!. 
I have verbally “Bitch Slapped” a particular Licensed Journeyman electrician 2 times for just this issue.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

So you guys require a license to do electrical work, AND a license to handle the business end of things. This can be two different people, or one in the same. 
Do I have that right?

I guess I see your points. I have to say, that does not sound as bad as it seemed at first.
Well, all except for the two different people part. IMO at least one master should also have to be the contractor.

I really do wish NY had more stringent requirements with regard to calling one's self a "contractor". Any yahoo in a beat up Volvo station wagon can call himself a contractor.


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

California has two test for one license, trade and law and you have to pass both. Unfortunately it is sickeningly easy. I think the only reason there are so many unlicensed contractors in CA is because it costs 200 bucks to take the test.


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## John (Jan 22, 2007)

Speedy Petey said:


> I really do wish NY had more stringent requirements with regard to calling one's self a "contractor". Any yahoo in a beat up Volvo station wagon can call himself a contractor.


+ 1
Vt is the same way. I see a lot of this in residential work because permits are not required 90% on the time. No permit required = no responsibility for the work done.


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## nap (Dec 26, 2007)

Speedy Petey said:


> So you guys require a license to do electrical work, AND a license to handle the business end of things. This can be two different people, or one in the same.
> Do I have that right?
> 
> I guess I see your points. I have to say, that does not sound as bad as it seemed at first.
> ...



the owner can be one and the same. If the owner is not a master elec, he must hire a mich master that is a resident of Michigan (we are into the protectionism thing. If you notice, we do not have reciprocal licensing agreements with anybody as well).

In Indiana, there is no state level (electrical competency) licensing. It is left to the individual municipality. Some use the (Block) Experior test. Some, nothing other than paying your money for an EC business license.


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

Hey nap did you get your j-mens license through the state of Michigan or through one of the local cities. I got mine in 2000 through one of the recipal cities before they eliminated them. I heard the state test was much tougher.


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## nap (Dec 26, 2007)

Bkessler said:


> Hey nap did you get your j-mens license through the state of Michigan or through one of the local cities. I got mine in 2000 through one of the recipal cities before they eliminated them. I heard the state test was much tougher.



state

I live in Podunk (Niles). There is no municipality within 50 miles of me that has their own.

actually the test is not that bad. Open book code test with not a lot of calculations.

If you are familiar with the NEC (and section 8) it's not bad. When i took my test, we were right near Lansing in the conference room over a bowling alley with a bar. Some of the idiots that decided a beer before the test was a good idea didn't fair as well as I did.


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

Hmm I took my test in Highland and it was not open book, I thought it was very difficult at the time, although I studied on my own verse taking a course. There was one freebie, 20 points of hundred where material identification.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

1st You NEVER should have done this without a lawyer and a full contact in place.

2nd Now you need a lawyer ASAP. The fees a lawyer will be charging will outweigh ANY LAWSUIT that could leave you and your family penniless.


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## Kletis (Jan 18, 2008)

Regardless of whether or not you will be liable for this, do you really want your name on the work if you know it is being done by untrained people? I would tell the owner that you are going to pull your license if he does not start obeying the local laws. If he does not listen then I would pull it!!

I don't know the laws of most states but I have my Washington Administrator's card which sounds pretty comparable to the card you are referring to and if I were to use it for a contractor and something were to go wrong I would be held responsible and could lose my license. Also, I would not feel right signing the permits if I was not confident that the work would be done properly.

Just my 2 cents....


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## Sberry (Jan 11, 2021)

I would never show up in a Subie for a wiring job.


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## CMP (Oct 30, 2019)

fisher8064 said:


> *Contractor vs. Master / Question Michigan Law..*
> 
> I recently endorsed my company's electrical contractors license with my masters. They day after that they wanted me in the field running jobs. I don't mind wearing the belt, however they are now sending out apprentices by themselves and doing things that really don't follow Michigan law. I've lost control to the shop.
> 
> ...


I think that depending on what the issue is, that it's practical you both could be named in a suit. Ultimately it would depend on who has the deeper pockets. You did have a contract with them that they will provide liability insurance and workers compensation on you and the rest of their crew right? Do you get to see the insurance contract? Workers compensation insurance usually pays when someone gets injured. If something goes bad with a customer facility, then you, the contractor, and the liability insurance will be on the hook.

Here in Michigan, I have done work for several mechanical contractors over the years. Some I wouldn't let them change a lamp on my permit. Others have had some competent employees and I had no problem with them doing some of the control end of the work and startups, but made sure that they were up on the insurance aspect.

Years back, when I had a partner in a different company, we got sued once for a fire with loss of life. Right on the fire report the cause was listed, it was clearly not our fault, but got listed in the suit anyways. The insurance company defended us, but afterwards our rates quadrupled for 4 years after that. Then they enter you into a pool, so that if you try and switch carriers after that, the other carriers will charge more than the existing carrier.

So it would behoove you to make sure that they keep enough insurance in force to cover your behind and theirs too. If they are the type to ignore the law on working rules, then they might also skimp on the insurance coverage from time to time.


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