# Can I put an end on a cord



## garfield (Jul 30, 2009)

This is a letter from osha I found on the internet but I still don't know if I can put an end on a cord because it wouldn't be molded and identical?
April 4, 2010 

Letter # 20070926-7973 

Re: Whether extension cords may be repaired and returned to use. 

*Question:* Where an extension cord being used in construction has been damaged near the plug end, is it permissible to replace the plug with an approved cord cap made for that type of cord, provided the repair is done by a qualified electrician? 

*Answer:* Extension cords used in construction may be repaired, so long as the repair returns the cord to the "approved" state required by §1926.403(a). 

This section states, "All electrical conductors and equipment shall be approved." 

The repair of cords and cord sets is permitted under 1926.404(b)(1)(iii)(C):
Each cord set, attachment cap, plug and receptacle of cord sets, and any equipment connected by cord and plug, except cord sets and receptacles which are fixed and not exposed to damage, shall be visually inspected before each day's use for external defects, such as deformed or missing pins or insulation damage, and for indications for possible internal damage. Equipment found damaged or defective *shall not be used until repaired*. (Emphasis added.)​Repairs of extension cords are therefore permitted under §1926.404(b)(1)(iii)(C). However, in order to remain compliant with §1926.403(a), the repairs must return the equipment to the state in which it was initially approved. 

Similar repairs are discussed in our May 19, 2003 letter to Barry Cole:
To satisfy the requirements of the OSHA standards, a repair would have to restore the tool to its "approved" condition in accordance with §1926.403(a). Tools ... are approved as complete factory-produced entities. The approval is for the tool as a whole - its design, capacity, materials and construction. This provision precludes the use of an approved tool if its characteristics are materially altered.​If you need additional information, please contact us by fax at: U.S. Department of Labor, OSHA, Directorate of Construction, Office of Construction Standards and Guidance, fax # 202-693-1689. You can also contact us by mail at the above office, Room N3468, 200 Constitution Avenue, N.W., Washington, D.C. 20210, although there will be a delay in our receiving correspondence by mail. 

Sincerely, 



Bill Parsons, Acting Director
Directorate of Construction


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

We replace the cords due to the molded on issue.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

*Answer: Extension cords used in construction may be repaired, so long as the repair returns the cord to the "approved" state required by §19 26.403(a).  *

I do not believe you can repair a extension cord to its original state as most of them are molded unto cord.

I believe what they mean by 'approved ' state, is the condition submitted for the UL Listing.


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## den (Mar 28, 2009)

what if the cord end is ul approved for cord end replacment?


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## joethemechanic (Sep 21, 2011)

I make some of my own cords and nobody has ever given them a second look. Actually I make a lot of my own cords if you don't count the cheap 120 volt stuff. I make 240 volt single and 3 phase cords all the time.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

how many osha inspectors have looked at your cords ?

I'm guessing none.

I haven't seen an osha inspector for 25 yrs, but the last time i saw one it was a violation.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

joethemechanic said:


> I make some of my own cords and nobody has ever given them a second look. Actually I make a lot of my own cords if you don't count the cheap 120 volt stuff. I make 240 volt single and 3 phase cords all the time.


Have the jobsites been visited by osha? I bet no. If they had your cord would be cut up.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

OSHA sucks ass.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

BBQ said:


> We replace the cords due to the molded on issue.


And throw away the remaining good cord? I understand you work for a large firm that can afford to replace a cord, but I still fix them regardless of the rule.
I understand that's what you are supposed to say. But do your guys really junk a good cord that can be returned to service? 



joethemechanic said:


> I make some of my own cords and nobody has ever given them a second look. Actually I make a lot of my own cords if you don't count the cheap 120 volt stuff. I make 240 volt single and 3 phase cords all the time.


In manufacturing, cords are used all the time. Twist locks and bus plugs are very common. That's how its done. The correct cord and twist lock plug is connected and attached to the bus plug with a strain relief. Done every day all day long 365-24-7. 



mcclary's electrical said:


> Have the job sites been visited by OSHA? I bet no. If they had your cord would be cut up.


They might take it out of service, but no one cuts up anything of mine. No one.
I have been in this trade for more than 30 years and have yet to meet or see one OSHA representative on any job.
When I worked for the Railroad, they knew when anyone special was coming for a visit. It was easy to know. They had you cleaning up for them.


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

A friend that worked in a hospital said if a customer wanted to use their own radio, ect. they'd do a pullout tension test,and would change plug to comply with hospital regs.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Have the jobsites been visited by osha? I bet no. If they had your cord would be cut up.


OSHA came on the 6 billion dollar job I am working on with a team of inspectors and they inspected anything they wanted, and interviewed any worker they wanted to, and did they. Found little to nothing wrong as we were told by our bosses to simple speak the truth. Safety is the number one issue on this job, and is taken seriously!! There are a lot of zero tolerance rules, LOTO is one of them.
OSHA can not destroy whats not theirs, although they can and will hand out hefty fines and issue stop work orders.


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

$6,000,000,000! Quite a large project!


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

yes it is, it will be the most modern computer chip fabrication plant in the world, right here in NYS!!

http://www.electriciantalk.com/f17/nys-new-6-billion-dollar-chip-plant-30149/


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

360max said:


> OSHA came on the 6 billion dollar job I am working on with a team of inspectors and they inspected anything they wanted, and interviewed any worker they wanted to, and did they. Found little to nothing wrong as we were told by our bosses to simple speak the truth. Safety is the number one issue on this job, and is taken seriously!! There are a lot of zero tolerance rules, LOTO is one of them.
> OSHA can not destroy whats not theirs, although they can and will hand out hefty fines and issue stop work orders.


 
Osha doesn't cut up cords. The GC who was gonna be stuck with the fines will normally cut the cord ends off any illegal cord.


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## user8640521 (Jan 17, 2009)

joethemechanic said:


> I make some of my own cords and nobody has ever given them a second look. Actually I make a lot of my own cords if you don't count the cheap 120 volt stuff. I make 240 volt single and 3 phase cords all the time.


i have 100' of #10-3 SO cord, and a hubbell twist lock cord cap 
on each end of it.

all components are UL listed.

where is the violation? unless i'm not allowed to make electrical
connections, in which case why do i have a contractors license?


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

I have seen plenty of cords made incorrectly. Male end of a cord mated to a female cord cap is a constant irritation. You think a electrician could figure that out, but it something I see at every job site. I have had OSHA inspectors look at cords, if you haven't you have been working on to many tiny jobs.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

FulThrotl said:


> i have 100' of #10-3 SO cord, and a hubbell twist lock cord cap
> on each end of it.
> 
> all components are UL listed.
> ...


 
You can't use homemade cords on constructions sites.

"approved" condition in accordance with §1926.403(a). Tools ... are approved as complete factory-produced entities. The approval is for the tool as a whole - its design, capacity, materials and construction.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

mcclary's electrical said:


> You can't use homemade cords on constructions sites.
> 
> "approved" condition in accordance with §1926.403(a). Tools ... are approved as complete factory-produced entities. The approval is for the tool as a whole - its design, capacity, materials and construction.


I do not believe this to be true, OSHA says someone qualified to replace a cord end can(doesn't have to be an electrician). If what you say was the case how could P&S sell twistlock and southwire sell SO cord?


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

sbrn33 said:


> I do not believe this to be true, OSHA says someone qualified to replace a cord end can(doesn't have to be an electrician). If what you say was the case how could P&S sell twistlock and southwire sell SO cord?


you believe what you want. good luck with that. here's what OSHA says:
http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=INTERPRETATIONS&p_id=27353


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

sbrn33 said:


> I do not believe this to be true, OSHA says someone qualified to replace a cord end can(doesn't have to be an electrician). If what you say was the case how could P&S sell twistlock and southwire sell SO cord?


 
OSHA says you can return the cord to it's factory approved state. That in itself proves you cannot "home make" cords. 

For use at home, sure, knock yourself out. But not for use on a jobsite.


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## user8640521 (Jan 17, 2009)

wildleg said:


> you believe what you want. good luck with that. here's what OSHA says:
> http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=INTERPRETATIONS&p_id=27353


=====
1926.403(a)
Approval. All electrical conductors and equipment shall be approved.
=====

southwire makes approved SO cord.
hubbell makes approved cord caps and bodies.

so, it follows that an assembly made from those approved components
shall be approved.

now... the rub comes from MODIFYING a UL listed cord assembly,
it seems.

i've done an awful lot of trade shows, and fire marshals and city
inspectors are drawn to them for safety inspections....

and i can assure you that SO pigtails with hubbell 5 conductor
cord caps are used by the ton, literally. nobody's ever said
anything, and the practice has been going on for 25 years
that i have personal experience with.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

FulThrotl said:


> =====
> 1926.403(a)
> Approval. All electrical conductors and equipment shall be approved.
> =====
> ...


 
Fire marshalls ad city inspectors are not OSHA. The cord must be listed as an assembly. Do you have yours listed?


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## DEelectrician88 (Oct 14, 2011)

Our company doesn't let us repair our cords.. I guess the chance of a fine isn't worth saving 100 bucks on a new cord.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

John Valdes said:


> And throw away the remaining good cord? I understand you work for a large firm that can afford to replace a cord, but I still fix them regardless of the rule.
> I understand that's what you are supposed to say. But do your guys really junk a good cord that can be returned to service?


Yes, we junk an otherwise good cord.

OSHA does show up on our jobs and one fine will pay for a lot of cords.

In reality it means all the guys end up with nice cords for their homes with replacement cord caps.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

wildleg said:


> how many osha inspectors have looked at your cords ?
> 
> I'm guessing none.
> 
> I haven't seen an osha inspector for 25 yrs, but the last time i saw one it was a violation.


I always hand him the the end that the cord cap is missing while it is plugged in..:laughing::laughing:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

electricmanscott said:


> OSHA sucks ass.


Don't be a Harry.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Have the jobsites been visited by osha? I bet no. If they had your cord would be cut up.


I have seen safety officers enforcing this. One almost got beaten major league as he cut up the cord of a not so stable rigger I know.


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## Wired4Life10 (Jul 9, 2011)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Fire marshalls ad city inspectors are not OSHA. The cord must be listed as an assembly. Do you have yours listed?


Regarding the trade show scenario, I have seen OSHA reps at trade shows, concerts, etc before and how do custom made cords from UL listed materials not apply? If you don't understand my reasoning, visit a local production company that does event production with lighting, video, rigging, and sound. Nearly, if not all, electrical feeder is made custom with the appropriate ends. Every production company in my city including mine make custom cabling using Hubbell and Cooper connectors on SO and SE wire. This is the standard practice in my city along with other cities, namely Chicago. The reason is we use primarily locking connectors with L6-20, L5-20, and L18-20 being the most called for along with camlocks.

OSHA reps visit any type of construction whether it be permanent structures or temporary structures made of lighting truss. If it's a large enough event, they will generally stop by.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Wired, I do not think anyone is saying you cannot make a cord.

What I am saying you cannot do is repair a cord that had molded ends with a replacement end.

As far as what happens at temp events........... I would not use that to decide what is allowed and what is a violation.


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## SparkYZ (Jan 20, 2010)

If the cord had a molded end from factory, then it can only have a molded plug. If it didn't like SO SJO etc, it's a different story. That's how I read it.


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## Wired4Life10 (Jul 9, 2011)

SparkYZ said:


> If the cord had a molded end from factory, then it can only have a molded plug. If it didn't like SO SJO etc, it's a different story. That's how I read it.


Thank you for the clarification, Sparky.


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## user8640521 (Jan 17, 2009)

Wired4Life10 said:


> Thank you for the clarification, Sparky.


yeah, that's my read on it as well...

molded factory cords don't use SO cord, they use stuff a lot
flimsier, so that means that unlisted cord does not qualify with
listed ends, that are not part of a factory assembly.

as for trade shows..... yep. what you said.... much of it is 
custom made.... 5-12 SO cord with twist locks is what lashes
everything together... fed off panels with six of those sockets
in the side, and all that #12 fed by 30 amp breakers... :-/

those are fed off 60 amp plugs, six on a board, and those panels
are fed with 4/0 camlocks....


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

We are at the point where they think we are to stupid to put ends on cords, yet they still let us terminate 4000 amp, 480/277 VAC switchboards. 

Seems azz backwards.

I would bet dollars to donuts the cord manufactures did a bit of lobbying.


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## dxco (Jun 21, 2011)

*cords & distro's*



Wired4Life10 said:


> Regarding the trade show scenario, I have seen OSHA reps at trade shows, concerts, etc before and how do custom made cords from UL listed materials not apply? If you don't understand my reasoning, visit a local production company that does event production with lighting, video, rigging, and sound. Nearly, if not all, electrical feeder is made custom with the appropriate ends. Every production company in my city including mine make custom cabling using Hubbell and Cooper connectors on SO and SE wire. This is the standard practice in my city along with other cities, namely Chicago. The reason is we use primarily locking connectors with L6-20, L5-20, and L18-20 being the most called for along with camlocks.
> 
> 
> Every production co uses custom distro's & cords for sound equip, lights, etc -Kept me in business through the 90's & 00's> But I think the OSHA letter is concerning construction sites where they would have the painters & drywallers repairing their cords if the rule was not in place... Yes, it's stupid not to allow electricians to build cords for use on their jobsites but do you want to use a cord made by the plumber's helper??? DX


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

brian john said:


> We are at the point where they think we are to stupid to put ends on cords, yet they still let us terminate 4000 amp, 480/277 VAC switchboards.
> 
> Seems azz backwards.
> 
> I would bet dollars to donuts the cord manufactures did a bit of lobbying.


Brian, it is a downer when a well read guy like yourself makes a 'Harry' post.:laughing:

There is no place in OSHA standards that says we are not qualified to repair a cord.

If you happen to have the machine to install a molded on cord cap you are free to do it.


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## garfield (Jul 30, 2009)

The 12 gauge cords we use have a rating like sjtw or something so can I cut both ends off? How would they know whether I bought a 1000 foot roll of the stuff and made them initially?


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

BBQ said:


> Brian, it is a downer when a well read guy like yourself makes a 'Harry' post.:laughing:


Is that "FU" button available?:blink::laughing::laughing:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

HARRY304E said:


> Is that "FU" button available?:blink::laughing::laughing:


:laughing::laughing:


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## JohnR (Apr 12, 2010)

I was almost positive this would be a HO thread.:laughing:

Someone told me onetime, that as electricians, we cannot use the cords with molded ends, as there is not a separate mechanical clamp. 
IDK nor do I much care, yet...:whistling2::laughing:


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

as much as it pains me to say it, if guys hadn't have been using romex cords with the wires stuck in receptacles as plugs, or cords that had the wires taped together or had knicked cords laying in water, or 100 other stupid scenerios where we all know injuries occurred, do you think OSHA would have made these ridiculous rules and be enforcing them too ? As a society, most of us go merrily through our day expecting some overpaid government zombie to protect us from ourselves, then cry wolf when we can't do what we want because of some regulation (of course I don't include myself in that list, and I'm sure you don't, and I'm sure nobody else does either, but you know it's true)


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## CraigV (May 12, 2011)

wildleg said:


> as much as it pains me to say it, if guys hadn't have been using romex cords with the wires stuck in receptacles as plugs, or cords that had the wires taped together or had knicked cords laying in water, or 100 other stupid scenerios where we all know injuries occurred, do you think OSHA would have made these ridiculous rules and be enforcing them too ? As a society, most of us go merrily through our day expecting some overpaid government zombie to protect us from ourselves, then cry wolf when we can't do what we want because of some regulation (of course I don't include myself in that list, and I'm sure you don't, and I'm sure nobody else does either, but you know it's true)


Many thoughts come to mind. You can't fix stupid, or legislate past it. No matter how hard you work, the stupid always find a clever way to kill themselves and others.

I try to avoid expecting the government to do anything for me. I take care of myself, and let Darwin handle the rest....:laughing:


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## retiredsparktech (Mar 8, 2011)

garfield said:


> The 12 gauge cords we use have a rating like sjtw or something so can I cut both ends off? How would they know whether I bought a 1000 foot roll of the stuff and made them initially?


I bought two 25 ft. 12/3 cords, on sale at Harbor Freight. They look fairly well made. The molded plug cap and connector body a decent grip and strain relief. Also the prongs are solid instead of the folded kind. As much as they cost today, I wonder if they sell an extended warrantee on them. A firm that uses them hard would make out on it.


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## jmsmith (Sep 10, 2011)

sbrn33 said:


> I do not believe this to be true, OSHA says someone qualified to replace a cord end can(doesn't have to be an electrician). If what you say was the case how could P&S sell twistlock and southwire sell SO cord?


I asked this question in my OSHA30 training. A cord can be repaired, even on cord-powered tools, as long as an "approved and listed" connector, or a replacement cord direct from manufacturer is used. It must also be done by qualified personnel. Tape is not an option here! As long as it it is a listed connector that is of the grounding type, you may do so. In an inspection, if they find one without the ground, they can have you unplug it, and cut-off the bad end in plain sight so they know it will not be reused until repaired. They CANNOT do this themselves. The majority of fines that involve cords nowadays is when either the power source is a GFCI or has built-in GFCI protection.

Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


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## jmsmith (Sep 10, 2011)

jmsmith said:


> I asked this question in my OSHA30 training. A cord can be repaired, even on cord-powered tools, as long as an "approved and listed" connector, or a replacement cord direct from manufacturer is used. It must also be done by qualified personnel. Tape is not an option here! As long as it it is a listed connector that is of the grounding type, you may do so. In an inspection, if they find one without the ground, they can have you unplug it, and cut-off the bad end in plain sight so they know it will not be reused until repaired. They CANNOT do this themselves. The majority of fines that involve cords nowadays is when either the power source is a GFCI or has built-in GFCI protection.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


Sorry... NO GFCI.... 

Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

*Question:* Where an extension cord being used in construction has been damaged near the plug end, is it permissible to replace the plug with an approved cord cap made for that type of cord, provided the repair is done by a qualified electrician? 

*My Answer:* Yes.


I realize my answer is a lot less complicated and less costly that the government's answer. This **** is so out of control. They probably spent tens of thousands of dollars debating and writing this gibberish only to end up with a vague "answer"

****ing idiots.


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## jmsmith (Sep 10, 2011)

220/221 said:


> Question: Where an extension cord being used in construction has been damaged near the plug end, is it permissible to replace the plug with an approved cord cap made for that type of cord, provided the repair is done by a qualified electrician?
> 
> My Answer: Yes.
> 
> ...


Got that right! :thumbsup:

Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Some folks would rather bitch and moan instead of trying to figure it out.:jester:

We can make our on cords, that is allowed.

Hell OSHA even lets you make your own ladders out of wood.

But when you are talking about a factory made cord, or a factory made ladder we cannot modify them in the field.

We could repair a factory made cord if we had the ability to install a molded on cord cap exactly like the one we were replacing.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> We could repair a factory made cord if we had the ability to install a molded on cord cap exactly like the one we were replacing.


That's your interpetation. OSHA does not say that.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

220/221 said:


> That's your interpetation. OSHA does not say that.


Yes they do. Read what I posted earlier, the repair must return the cord to it's original listed and approved state.


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## jmsmith (Sep 10, 2011)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Yes they do. Read what I posted earlier, the repair must return the cord to it's original listed and approved state.


What they are referring to is that it has to be a complete cord with grounding conductors intact, performed by a QUALIFIED individual. Cords that have built- in GFCI in them usually have all molded connectors. They realize that most contractors on site do not have molding capabilities. They will allow you to replace the end caps on these as long as the plug is listed and the same configuration as the original.

Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

jmsmith said:


> What they are referring to is that it has to be a complete cord with grounding conductors intact, performed by a QUALIFIED individual. Cords that have built- in GFCI in them usually have all molded connectors. They realize that most contractors on site do not have molding capabilities. They will allow you to replace the end caps on these as long as the plug is listed and the same configuration as the original.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


You're jumping to conclusions, and not the correct ones.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

220/221 said:


> That's your interpetation. OSHA does not say that.


Actually they do say that.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

jmsmith said:


> They will allow you to replace the end caps on these as long as the plug is listed and the same configuration as the original.


Nope.

Replacing a molded on cord cap with a non-molded cord cap is not allowed.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

FulThrotl said:


> i have 100' of #10-3 SO cord, and a hubbell twist lock cord cap
> on each end of it. All components are UL listed.


 And you use this extension cord for, what? Just curious. The twist lock part has me asking.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

It cannot be made anymore clear than this. You people are just choosing to ignore what is written.




Repairs of extension cords are therefore permitted under §1926.404(b)(1)(iii)(C). However, in order to remain compliant with §1926.403(a), the repairs must return the equipment to the state in which it was initially approved.


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## CraigV (May 12, 2011)

Gee, imagine that; a government agency writes a letter to clarify a frequently asked question, and fails to answer it.


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## jmsmith (Sep 10, 2011)

mcclary's electrical said:


> You're jumping to conclusions, and not the correct ones.


With all respect, sir, I find that kinda funny seeing that in all my years with a major contractor that dealt in heavy industrial projects for DOTs, Government, and Railroads that I am jumping to any conclusions here. I have had to be certified in OSHA 30 and have had the "pleasure" of dealing with them on a pretty regular basis. If the other contractors had problems with their cords or corded equipment, they were tag it and bring it to US for repair and test. We had to have a man on site to do this. It was to be returned only after the repair had been signed-off and logged. This log was to be kept along with the approved grounding log. Both of these records were required to be submitted to the customer and OSHA on a regular basis. A lot of or work was in areas that you don't even have a supply house or Lowe's/Home Depot around. All I have stated here is what I have gathered from discussion with OSHA inspectors on different jobs I have been on. BTW, I believe that OSHA is about as open to interpretation as the NEC. :blink:
Have a good day....
- Jim

Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

jmsmith said:


> With all respect, sir, I find that kinda funny seeing that in all my years with a major contractor that dealt in heavy industrial projects for DOTs, Government, and Railroads that I am jumping to any conclusions here. I have had to be certified in OSHA 30 and have had the "pleasure" of dealing with them on a pretty regular basis. If the other contractors had problems with their cords or corded equipment, they were tag it and bring it to US for repair and test. We had to have a man on site to do this. It was to be returned only after the repair had been signed-off and logged. This log was to be kept along with the approved grounding log. Both of these records were required to be submitted to the customer and OSHA on a regular basis. A lot of or work was in areas that you don't even have a supply house or Lowe's/Home Depot around. All I have stated here is what I have gathered from discussion with OSHA inspectors on different jobs I have been on. BTW, I believe that OSHA is about as open to interpretation as the NEC. :blink:
> Have a good day....
> - Jim
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


I don't care what you've done in the past, replacing a molded cord cap with a clamp on one is not returning it to it's original state. Have a good day,



Jerry


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## CraigV (May 12, 2011)

mcclary's electrical said:


> I don't care what you've done in the past, replacing a molded cord cap with a clamp on one is not returning it to it's original state. Have a good day,
> 
> 
> 
> Jerry


You seem to be interpreting "approved state" as "100% identical". Where's that stated? This seems like a term that needs clarification. Hence 3 pages of bickering....


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

CraigV said:


> You seem to be interpreting "approved state" as "100% identical". Where's that stated? This seems like a term that needs clarification. Hence 3 pages of bickering....


Was a "clamp on" end installed on the cord when it was listed? As I said to me it cannot be made any clearer than that. They did not say "return cord somewhere close to it's approved state"


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Yes they do. Read what I posted earlier, _the repair must return the cord to it's original listed and approved *state*_.


 
Once again, that is *your* interpetation of *state*. It doesn't say anything about exact factory stock condition. It says *state*. 

State = condition, not necessarily an exact duplication. 

In it's original state, the cord has a grounded caps that are secured to the cord, the same as a properly installed cord cap.


State:
*the condition of a person or thing, as with respect to circumstances or attributes*


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## Amish Electrician (Jan 2, 2010)

Let's not get all twisted up, arguing what the meaning of "is" is.

Original listed and approved state .... the verdamnt plugs are made specifically for the use- to apply to the cords. WTF do you think the UL standard is designed around? Does anyone think, for even a moment, that UL would 'list' something for a forbidden application?

Whether clamp-on or molded, the completed assembly needs to pass the very same strain-relief test. The clamp-on units are designed for specific cords types- that is, shapes and sizes.

Now, this becomes an issue when the plugs are attached to flat cords, or to Romex. I'm not aware of any plugs being evaluated for that use, but I might be wrong.

The plugs do need to be 'dead front' types. The cord does need to be at least 'hard useage' type. The circuit needs some form of GFCI protection, for most job sites.

Repairs to the cord itself? Well, you have to ask yourself: could I convince the inspector that the repair would pass the same tests that the cord passed? Perhaps it could, and the inspector would be satisfied ... but how much time, effort, and expense is a $10 cord worth?


----------



## jmsmith (Sep 10, 2011)

If any doubt, go to 1926.404. Section (b) pretty much sums-up requirements for what the contractor has to follow for cord and plug equipment that is not or will never be part of the building structure. In it you will see that or you are running a generator rated at less than 5kW and isolated from frame, GFCI in not required. However, there is NO mention of restoring to ORIGINAL state. It also spells out in NO uncertain term what tagging and logs that have to be maintained as long as the equipment is in use onsite.

Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


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## joethemechanic (Sep 21, 2011)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Have the jobsites been visited by osha? I bet no. If they had your cord would be cut up.


So my 240V 3 phase extension cord made out of SO with the twist locks is illegal?

I don't think I have ever seen one with molded on ends


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

joethemechanic said:


> So my 240V 3 phase extension cord made out of SO with the twist locks is illegal?


No.

You can make your own cords, you just can't modify a factory cord.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Nope.
> 
> Replacing a molded on cord cap with a non-molded cord cap is not allowed.


So all those cut up CES cords that Dennis gave me or I plucked out of the dumpster and put replacement female ends on, I could get gigged by OSHA for that?


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

BBQ said:


> No.
> 
> You can make your own cords, you just can't modify a factory cord.


 
Where does it say you can't modify a factory cord?



Oh, right. It doesn't.:laughing:




> but how much time, effort, and expense is a $10 cord worth?


 
Exactly $10 :laughing:


But where are you getting decent cords for $10?


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

220/221 said:


> But where are you getting decent cords for $10?


A decent, #12, hard use extension cord is a minimum of $50 for a 50 footer. Obviously if you are a big shop and buy them by the pallet they go for less, but the rest of us chumps....


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

220/221 said:


> Where does it say you can't modify a factory cord?
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, right. It doesn't.:laughing:


Ahh 110.3(B) applies ......... it is listed.


Let me ask you.

How many hours of safety training have you had?

Which OSHA certifications do you have?

Who runs the safety program at your shop?

Has OSHA been on your jobs?

Has OSHA asked your company to help give safety training to other contractors?




So I am going to have to side with our Corporate Safety Director who has about 10 years experience working directly with OSHA. :laughing:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Peter D said:


> So all those cut up CES cords that Dennis gave me or I plucked out of the dumpster and put replacement female ends on, I could get gigged by OSHA for that?


That was why they were in the dumpster. 

It is why I have about 1000' of 100' cords here in my garage.:jester:


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## jmsmith (Sep 10, 2011)

joethemechanic said:


> So my 240V 3 phase extension cord made out of SO with the twist locks is illegal?
> 
> I don't think I have ever seen one with molded on ends


No sir, as long as you can prove to them that it has a CONTINUOS equipment grounding conductor end-to-end, the ends
are dead-front and use an approved means of strain-relief and listed for the use intended (v, a, etc.).... You're good to go!
BTW, can you even imagine what it would cost you to replace that even it was molded every time it wound-up damaged? Man, do I feel for you! :laughing: Have a good one.
- Jim

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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

BBQ said:


> That was why they were in the dumpster.
> 
> It is why I have about 1000' of 100' cords here in my garage.:jester:


But I use them on my jobs now. Could I get in trouble?


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Peter D said:


> But I use them on my jobs now. Could I get in trouble?


That is my understanding.

But would OSHA be on your jobs?


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

BBQ said:


> That is my understanding.
> 
> But would OSHA be on your jobs?


It's possible, I don't always do resi stuff. But it certainly would be a long shot for them to show up.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

jmsmith said:


> If any doubt, go to 1926.404. Section (b) pretty much sums-up requirements for what the contractor has to follow for cord and plug equipment that is not or will never be part of the building structure. In it you will see that or you are running a generator rated at less than 5kW and isolated from frame, GFCI in not required. However, there is NO mention of restoring to ORIGINAL state. It also spells out in NO uncertain term what tagging and logs that have to be maintained as long as the equipment is in use onsite.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


Don't even try that. That article has to do with whether or not you need gfi protection when using a portable generator. Don't just go pulling articles that don't apply.



Check the ul listing on your cord. If the parts used in assembly do not say clamp on cord end, then you are not returning it to it's original state. It's pretty evident a clamp on end is not weatherproof.


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## jmsmith (Sep 10, 2011)

BBQ said:


> Ahh 110.3(B) applies ......... it is listed.
> 
> Let me ask you.
> 
> ...


I see where you are coming from here, but in this case we are looking at two entirely different animals: permanently installed equipment and temporary power and equipment used in the installation of that equipment at a customer's site. BTW, the last major contractor that I worked for had a OSHA safety man, I have my OSHA 30 certification, USACE contractor certification (have to renew every 5 years),and recently had to be tested on OSHA regs as a part of my contractors license here in MS. The one thing that the people that I have worked-for in my past have done well.... SAW TO IT THAT I GOT ALL REQUIRED TRAINING! Don't see that too often! Have a good day, sir.

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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

I have an idea. Make up your cords the way you want them, put cord caps on, make your own, whatever it is that you insist on doing, and then call OSHA yourself to do a courtesy inspection and find out for yourself what they will allow. ( If they won't come for a courtesy inspection, you can always get them to come out by cutting your foot off or something like that)


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

wildleg said:


> I have an idea. Make up your cords the way you want them, put cord caps on, make your own, whatever it is that you insist on doing, and then call OSHA yourself to do a courtesy inspection and find out for yourself what they will allow. ( If they won't come for a courtesy inspection, you can always get them to come out by cutting your foot off or something like that)


That's my point. Does everybody on here arguing that it's legal really think all the osha fines that have been dished out are wrong? Do they honestly think all the cords that have been cut up and thrown off jobs were under incorrect interpretation? Really? That's pretty bold. I used to have 40 men working under me and I've had plenty of formal osha training. I'm not gonna let a one man band's interpretation of a formal osha requirement sway my thinking. Especially when they 're interpretation is plainly just so they don't have to buy another cord...


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## jmsmith (Sep 10, 2011)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Don't even try that. That article has to do with whether or not you need gfi protection when using a portable generator. Don't just go pulling articles that don't apply.
> 
> Check the ul listing on your cord. If the parts used in assembly do not say clamp on cord end, then you are not returning it to it's original state. It's pretty evident a clamp on end is not weatherproof.


I beg your pardon sir, but I have the book out right here... Along with ground fault protection, it also goes all the way through the assured grounding program right on through the repair, testing and documentation procedures... As a matter of fact, it can all be found on page 287 of the 2011 29CFR1926 OSHA CONSTRUCTION INDUSTRY REGULATIONS manual. I was just using GFCI as a reference point.

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## CraigV (May 12, 2011)

mcclary's electrical said:


> That's my point. Does everybody on here arguing that it's legal really think all the osha fines that have been dished out are wrong? Do they honestly think all the cords that have been cut up and thrown off jobs were under incorrect interpretation? Really? That's pretty bold. I used to have 40 men working under me and I've had plenty of formal osha training. I'm not gonna let a one man band's interpretation of a formal osha requirement sway my thinking. Especially when they 're interpretation is plainly just so they don't have to buy another cord...


I'll try again; where are you coming up with the interpretation that "approved state" can only mean "exactly as manufactured"??? 


The OSHA regs cited in the original post state that repairs can be made. They cite 1926.403(a):*http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owa...ue_file=1926_0403&src_anchor_name=1926.403(a)*

*1926.403(a)*_ Approval. All electrical conductors and equipment shall be approved_.



Now the question is, "approved by whom?" UL doesn't "approve" anything. they "list" completed products, and "classify" others for certain types of uses. 

So this possibly has nothing to do with UL, unless OSHA doesn't understand what UL does. So who's approval at the time of manufacture are they referring to?


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

CraigV said:


> I'll try again; where are you coming up with the interpretation that "approved state" can only mean "exactly as manufactured"???
> 
> 
> The OSHA regs cited in the original post state that repairs can be made. They cite 1926.403(a):*http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owa...ue_file=1926_0403&src_anchor_name=1926.403(a)*
> ...


ask that to the OSHA inspector when you see him. He'll be happy to tell you.


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## jmsmith (Sep 10, 2011)

mcclary's electrical said:


> That's my point. Does everybody on here arguing that it's legal really think all the osha fines that have been dished out are wrong? Do they honestly think all the cords that have been cut up and thrown off jobs were under incorrect interpretation? Really? That's pretty bold. I used to have 40 men working under me and I've had plenty of formal osha training. I'm not gonna let a one man band's interpretation of a formal osha requirement sway my thinking. Especially when they 're interpretation is plainly just so they don't have to buy another cord...


Apparently I have struck a nerve here. I apologize for that. I have only been a "one man band" for the last year of my 35 years in this field. I was only stating what I have seen and experienced in MY dealings with OSHA... Besides that, if the cord being used on heavy construction jobs are Wal-Mart quality, they HAVE NO PLACE even being in the gang box on the job site! Most of them are not "hard usage". Again, my apologies... I am not trying to pick a fight here... Y'all have a good one...
- Jim
PS - I am talking heavy construction here, that is basically what I have here. Any molded cords were used in our jobsite trailers, and NO ONE best take one out to the field, EVER!

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## CraigV (May 12, 2011)

wildleg said:


> ask that to the OSHA inspector when you see him. He'll be happy to tell you.


He should be, since he works for me.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

BBQ said:


> It is why I have about 1000' of 100' cords here in my garage.:jester:


:laughing: That's where all our trashed cords end up, I must have enough to go around the planet once or twice by now.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

jmsmith said:


> Apparently I have struck a nerve here. I apologize for that. I have only been a "one man band" for the last year of my 35 years in this field. I was only stating what I have seen and experienced in MY dealings with OSHA... Besides that, if the cord being used on heavy construction jobs are Wal-Mart quality, they HAVE NO PLACE even being in the gang box on the job site! Most of them are not "hard usage". Again, my apologies... I am not trying to pick a fight here... Y'all have a good one...
> - Jim
> PS - I am talking heavy construction here, that is basically what I have here. Any molded cords were used in our jobsite trailers, and NO ONE best take one out to the field, EVER!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


No nerve struck, this place is all in fun to me. It's just funny how people can ignore plain english. Attaching a clamp on cord end to a cord that originally had a molded cord end, is not returning it to it's original state to which it was listed. 


And no need to apologize, we do this all the time, and it's purely in fun, even when we cuss and call each other dumbasses, it 's like bsing with your buddies. No harm. Stop being so polite you big sissy.


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

jmsmith said:


> Apparently I have struck a nerve here. I apologize for that. I have only been a "one man band" for the last year of my 35 years in this field. I was only stating what I have seen and experienced in MY dealings with OSHA... Besides that, if the cord being used on heavy construction jobs are Wal-Mart quality, they HAVE NO PLACE even being in the gang box on the job site! Most of them are not "hard usage". Again, my apologies... I am not trying to pick a fight here... Y'all have a good one...
> - Jim
> PS - I am talking heavy construction here, that is basically what I have here. Any molded cords were used in our jobsite trailers, and NO ONE best take one out to the field, EVER!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


You didn't strike a nerve. McClary has no nerves...:laughing:


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## CraigV (May 12, 2011)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Attaching a clamp on cord end to a cord that originally had a molded cord end, is not returning it to it's original state to which it was listed.


We haven't even established who's "approval" is required. If it's UL, they don't "approve" anything. 

But by all means continue to avoid this.


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## Bulldog1 (Oct 21, 2011)

Jlarson said:


> :laughing: That's where all our trashed cords end up, I must have enough to go around the planet once or twice by now.


I have so many old cords laying around I started throwing the damaged ones in the scrap bin. The more space I have the more junk or treasures I fill it with. Less cords equals more treasures. :laughing:


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## jmsmith (Sep 10, 2011)

mcclary's electrical said:


> No nerve struck, this place is all in fun to me. It's just funny how people can ignore plain english. Attaching a clamp on cord end to a cord that originally had a molded cord end, is not returning it to it's original state to which it was listed.
> 
> And no need to apologize, we do this all the time, and it's purely in fun, even when we cuss and call each other dumbasses, it 's like bsing with your buddies. No harm. Stop being so polite you big sissy.


Would it help if I referred to you as a**hole like everyone else on here? Whatever melts your butter!
:laughing::blinking::jester:
BTW, have a good day!!!!!

Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

CraigV said:


> We haven't even established who's "approval" is required. If it's UL, they don't "approve" anything.
> 
> But by all means continue to avoid this.


I avoided it because it's a silly useless point. They are speaking of the original state. So since ul doesn't approve anything, I would assume they mean the manufacturer's "approved" original state as it was listed.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

jmsmith said:


> Would it help if I referred to you as a**hole like everyone else on here? Whatever melts your butter!
> :laughing::blinking::jester:
> BTW, have a good day!!!!!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


That's better. Now you're gonna fit in nicely here!


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Jlarson said:


> :laughing: That's where all our trashed cords end up, I must have enough to go around the planet once or twice by now.


For what??? Can't you read?? These guys are telling you that you don't have to do that duh


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## joethemechanic (Sep 21, 2011)

Chris1971 said:


> You didn't strike a nerve. McClary has no nerves...:laughing:



Hell I'm not even convinced he has a soul


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## jmsmith (Sep 10, 2011)

joethemechanic said:


> Hell I'm not even convinced he has a soul


He's right, tho... Maybe I need to save the polite talk for the customer, AHJ, or better yet the OSHA inspector! Why waste it all on him!
:blink::laughing::jester:
OMG, I just said he was right! Probably will never live this one down!!!!!
:laughing:

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## joethemechanic (Sep 21, 2011)

Really *OSHA is going to fine you for something if they feel like it's your turn to make a contribution to their budget. So WTF is the difference.

No properly repaired repaired extention cord is going to kill someone.


BTW I use the plugs with the 3 wedge type jaws, those external clamp replacements with the 2 screws are trash.



OSHA,,,,,, a gang is a gang, is a gang,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,is a gang,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

It's like a protection racket, you look for a business that is breaking the law, and you put the squeeze on them for some revenue to split up between the gang members. If they don't pay up , you beat them up and take their stuff.

When is it going to be time when we say the civics lesson was only there as part of a scam to throw us off


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## CraigV (May 12, 2011)

mcclary's electrical said:


> I avoided it because it's a silly useless point. They are speaking of the original state. So since ul doesn't approve anything, I would assume they mean the manufacturer's "approved" original state as it was listed.


It's the point that matters here. The "state" of a functional device is how it functions. If this was art, then how it looks and the exact method of manufacture might matter. Molded ends don't have any functional advantage over any other type that satisfies the intended use. If they were so great they wouldn't have failed in the first place! I've replaced plenty of failed (as opposed to physically destroyed by being run over, burnt etc.) molded ends over the years, but can't recall ever needing to replace a quality replacement end due to a failure.

Since OSHA is so arbitrary about "approval", then I guess we can be arbitrary about what it means to us. You can keep replacing cords, and others can keep repairing them. If the phantom menace does happen to show up and take umbrage about a Hubbell end, let him cut it off. You "got away" with it until that point, and nobody was ever in any danger.


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## CraigV (May 12, 2011)

joethemechanic said:


> Really *OSHA is going to fine you for something if they feel like it's your turn to make a contribution to their budget. So WTF is the difference.
> 
> No properly repaired repaired extention cord is going to kill someone.
> 
> ...


 
In all fairness, OSHA was started with good intentions. But good intentions and government are at best oxymoronic, at worst mutually exclusive. OSHA is "mature"; meaning it's been around too long to not suffer bureaucratic deadlock, possibly some corruption, and plenty of outside influence (can you say "lobbyist"?) thrown in for good measure.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

CraigV said:


> Molded ends don't have any functional advantage over any other type that satisfies the intended use.


Actually they do, they keep water out of the internal parts.

There is no way that installing a replacement cord cap where a molded one was returns the cord to it's original state.

Feel free to risk your own money on that gamble but I would not risk mine and the companies I work for will not risk theirs.

The cost of a few cords is pennies compared to fines and if it moves to 'repeat offenses' the fines increase many times over.


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## CraigV (May 12, 2011)

BBQ said:


> Actually they do, they keep water out of the internal parts.
> 
> There is no way that installing a replacement cord cap where a molded one was returns the cord to it's original state.
> 
> ...


If the tool or cord was intended to be used in a wet environment, there are rainproof ends.

FWIW, I'm not saying that it's one way or another, I'm arguing that the OSHA wording is vague and frankly seems intentionally so, perhaps to avoid actually taking a stance one way or another. Maybe they're stuck between a rock and a hard place...don't want to piss off the chinese molded cord mafia, and don't want to piss off the replacement cap commisars....:laughing:


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

CraigV said:


> If the tool or cord was intended to be used in a wet environment, there are rainproof ends.
> 
> FWIW, I'm not saying that it's one way or another, I'm arguing that the OSHA wording is vague and frankly seems intentionally so, perhaps to avoid actually taking a stance one way or another. Maybe they're stuck between a rock and a hard place...don't want to piss off the chinese molded cord mafia, and don't want to piss off the replacement cap commisars....:laughing:


I don't see it as vague at all. It plainly says return to it's original state. You're refusing to accept plain english. 

If someone asked you to return your failed fuel pump on a gm back to it's original state, and you install an after market fuel pump, you have not done what had been asked of you. You can twist wordings and say the aftermarket pumps looks the same, does the same thing, functions the same and accomplishes the same thing, but you're being deceptive.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

You had said this ...



CraigV said:


> It's the point that matters here. The "state" of a functional device is how it functions.


I pointed out that a replacement end does not function the same as a molded on end.

It is a fact that a molded on end keeps water out of the internal parts of the plug, it is a fact that a standard replacement plug does not. 



CraigV said:


> If the tool or cord was intended to be used in a wet environment, there are rainproof ends.


There is nothing in the wording that allows the distinction you are trying to add. 

As I said, do what you want, if OSHA never shows up on your jobs I would not worry about it. In our case OSHA does show up and the less they can question the better.


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## CraigV (May 12, 2011)

BBQ said:


> You had said this ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm not adding any distinction. If a tool or cord was "approved" with rainproof ends, then the correct repair would require a rainproof end. It doesn't matter whether rainproof is achieved by molding or by a watertight boot.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

CraigV said:


> I'm not adding any distinction. If a tool or cord was "approved" with rainproof ends, then the correct repair would require a rainproof end. It doesn't matter whether rainproof is achieved by molding or by a watertight boot.


Ahhhh, so you just admitted that a clamp on cord end in the place of a molded one is not the same.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

CraigV said:


> It doesn't matter whether rainproof is achieved by molding or by a watertight boot.


Nope.

It was not approved with a boot, it was approved with a molded cap. 

The only way to return it to it's approved state is with the same type of components.

Why is this so hard to accept that they do not want us modifying listed equipment? :jester::blink:

Do you know that if you choose to cord and plug connect a dishwasher that the UL requires us to use only the cord listed in the instructions?

You cannot use a GE cord on a Hotpoint DW.

Point being ........ it is common that we cannot change listed equipment.


----------



## CraigV (May 12, 2011)

CraigV said:


> If the tool or cord was intended to be used in a wet environment, there are rainproof ends.
> 
> FWIW, I'm not saying that it's one way or another, I'm arguing that the OSHA wording is vague and frankly seems intentionally so, perhaps to avoid actually taking a stance one way or another. Maybe they're stuck between a rock and a hard place...don't want to piss off the chinese molded cord mafia, and don't want to piss off the replacement cap commisars....:laughing:





mcclary's electrical said:


> I don't see it as vague at all. It plainly says return to it's original state. You're refusing to accept plain english.


It not only doesn't "plainly" say it, it doesn't say "original state" at all. If it did, I wouldn't question their wording. "Approved state" is what they wrote. This is vague because there's no definitive approval agency involved, and I'll remind you that UL does not approve anything...they are very careful not to get involved in quagmires such as this. So "approved state" means whatever you want it to mean, apparently. Or by all means simply show me who the approval agency is, so we can see their specification for what exactly constitutes "approved state". If it means functional state, or exact, original condition.



mcclary's electrical said:


> If someone asked you to return your failed fuel pump on a gm back to it's original state, and you install an after market fuel pump, you have not done what had been asked of you. You can twist wordings and say the aftermarket pumps looks the same, does the same thing, functions the same and accomplishes the same thing, but you're being deceptive.


I _could_ twist wordings, but I didn't. If you think something I've written is "twisting" the wording, by all means quote me and explain it. Otherwise, don't accuse me of your failings...you're the one who twisted "approved" into "original". 

Perhaps you simply aren't understanding my point, so I'll try to explain it as simply and plainly as apossible: My stance is that the OSHA answer is vague. All the rest is simply giving examples of how the "approved state" could vary depending upon what "approved" means to OSHA.


----------



## CraigV (May 12, 2011)

BBQ said:


> Nope.
> 
> It was not approved with a boot, it was approved with a molded cap.
> 
> The only way to return it to it's approved state is with the same type of components.


Again, approved by who? You're applying UL standards, which is great. But UL isn't an "approval" agency.



BBQ said:


> Why is this so hard to accept that they do not want us modifying listed equipment? :jester::blink:


 I'm not saying I don't accept what OSHA wants. I'm saying they need to word their explanations in a clear manner. If they can't understand the important point that "approved" doesn't refer to UL, they should find someone in their agency who does understanding this to word their answers.

This would have been a VERY simple "No, replacement caps are not permitted" answer if that's what they wanted to say. So why didn't they say that? They could also state that "original equipment" parts must be used.




BBQ said:


> Do you know that if you choose to cord and plug connect a dishwasher that the UL requires us to use only the cord listed in the instructions?
> 
> You cannot use a GE cord on a Hotpoint DW.
> 
> Point being ........ it is common that we cannot change listed equipment.


Yes, I know. When the issue is UL LISTING. But that's not the case here, unless OSHA really doesn't understand UL.


----------



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

CraigV said:


> Again, approved by who? You're applying UL standards, which is great. But UL isn't an "approval" agency.
> 
> I'm not saying I don't accept what OSHA wants. I'm saying they need to word their explanations in a clear manner. If they can't understand the important point that "approved" doesn't refer to UL, they should find someone in their agency who does understanding this to word their answers.
> 
> ...


Like it or not, approved state means original state. You're just being more "Harry like" with every post. 

Ponder this, do you think the ALL the fines that have ever been dished out over this were wrong? You honestly believe that , just because you're saying approved state is vague? You think approved state really means a two year old cord with replaced ends? C'mon man, you're normally not this far off.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

CraigV said:


> Again, approved by who? You're applying UL standards, which is great. But UL isn't an "approval" agency.


A NTRL listed the cord, if we change the cord it is no longer that same as it was when it was listed.



> I'm not saying I don't accept what OSHA wants. I'm saying they need to word their explanations in a clear manner. If they can't understand the important point that "approved" doesn't refer to UL, they should find someone in their agency who does understanding this to word their answers.


I think it is clear.



> This would have been a VERY simple "No, replacement caps are not permitted"


 Because the rule is not that limited.



> Yes, I know. When the issue is UL LISTING. But that's not the case here, unless OSHA really doesn't understand UL.


:blink::blink::blink:

Of course they understand UL, UL is an OSHA acceptable NTRL.


From 1910.399



> Listed. Equipment is "listed" if it is of a kind mentioned in a list that:
> 
> (1) Is published by a nationally recognized laboratory that makes periodic inspection of the production of such equipment, and
> 
> (2) States that such equipment meets nationally recognized standards or has been tested and found safe for use in a specified manner.





> 1910.303(b)(1)(i)
> 
> Suitability for installation and use in conformity with the provisions of this subpart;
> 
> Note to paragraph (b)(1)(i) of this section: *Suitability of equipment for an identified purpose may be evidenced by listing or labeling for that identified purpose.*


----------



## jmsmith (Sep 10, 2011)

CraigV said:


> Again, approved by who? You're applying UL standards, which is great. But UL isn't an "approval" agency.
> 
> I'm not saying I don't accept what OSHA wants. I'm saying they need to word their explanations in a clear manner. If they can't understand the important point that "approved" doesn't refer to UL, they should find someone in their agency who does understanding this to word their answers.
> 
> ...


With UL, listing is much like approval. The item is tested, and of it passes certain standards it becomes listed. That means that that particular item is "approved" for those "listed" conditions. I have worked for contractors that worked on government projects in which part of what I did was design and build custom control panels. In order to even do this for the government, our panel shops had to be UL certified, any custom panel would then be tested, then "listed". This meant that this panel was "approved" for this particular application, and use on any other voids any warranties.. Written or Expressed. This came from UL itself.

Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


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## CraigV (May 12, 2011)

jmsmith said:


> With UL, listing is much like approval. The item is tested, and of it passes certain standards it becomes listed. That means that that particular item is "approved" for those "listed" conditions. I have worked for contractors that worked on government projects in which part of what I did was design and build custom control panels. In order to even do this for the government, our panel shops had to be UL certified, any custom panel would then be tested, then "listed". This meant that this panel was "approved" for this particular application, and use on any other voids any warranties.. Written or Expressed. This came from UL itself.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


UL is most definitely NOT in the "approval" business. They test, and they leave it to others to decide if a listed, recognized or classified product meets "approval". 

http://www.ul.com/global/eng/pages/corporate/contactus/faq/general/terminology/


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

CraigV said:


> UL is most definitely NOT in the "approval" business. They test, and they leave it to others to decide if a listed, recognized or classified product meets "approval".


I agree.

And OSHA AHJs use UL listings in their determinations of approval.

But when you have listed equipment, as soon as it is modified the listing can become meaningless. If that is true or not is also up to the AHJ to decide.


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## jmsmith (Sep 10, 2011)

CraigV said:


> UL is most definitely NOT in the "approval" business. They test, and they leave it to others to decide if a listed, recognized or classified product meets "approval".
> 
> http://www.ul.com/global/eng/pages/corporate/contactus/faq/general/terminology/


Maybe "APPROVED" is a misuse on my part... How would you feel about the term "TESTED AND FOUND COMPLIANT TO NEC, OSHA, and other organizational STANDARDS AND DEEMED ACCEPTABLE FOR THE USE INTENDED."
All I know is that we were held to "approved" standards using "approved" testing procedures to put our "approved" LISTED sticker on our panels -- yes, "approved" may have been a bad choice of words on my part.... GO FIGURE!


Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

jmsmith said:


> Maybe "APPROVED" is a misuse on my part... How would you feel about the term "TESTED AND FOUND COMPLIANT TO NEC, OSHA, and other organizational STANDARDS AND DEEMED ACCEPTABLE FOR THE USE INTENDED."
> All I know is that we were held to "approved" standards using "approved" testing procedures to put our "approved" LISTED sticker on our panels -- yes, "approved" may have been a bad choice of words on my part.... GO FIGURE!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


All of which mean original and new state. Thanks dude


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## jmsmith (Sep 10, 2011)

mcclary's electrical said:


> All of which mean original and new state. Thanks dude


Oh well, might as well agree to disagree... After all, when the smoke clears, it doesn't really matter how we interpret the black and white. That is up to the POWERS THAT BE!!!! Sad thing, with all the intellectuals we have here! 
:laughing::jester:
Y'all have a fine one!

Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


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## LARMGUY (Aug 22, 2010)

jmsmith said:


> With all respect, sir, I find that kinda funny seeing that in all my years with a major contractor that dealt in heavy industrial projects for DOTs, Government, and Railroads that I am jumping to any conclusions here. I have had to be certified in OSHA 30 and have had the "pleasure" of dealing with them on a pretty regular basis. If the other contractors had problems with their cords or corded equipment, they were tag it and bring it to US for repair and test. We had to have a man on site to do this. It was to be returned only after the repair had been signed-off and logged. This log was to be kept along with the approved grounding log. Both of these records were required to be submitted to the customer and OSHA on a regular basis. A lot of or work was in areas that you don't even have a supply house or Lowe's/Home Depot around. All I have stated here is what I have gathered from discussion with OSHA inspectors on different jobs I have been on.


In my opinion the above is the final word on this matter.



> I believe that OSHA is about as open to interpretation as the NEC. :blink:


Or IRS. :whistling2:


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Yeah, so , here we are a trade that can assumably fix an extention cord up , and probably make it a whole lot safer for the end user

but can't

and it's all about some ivory tower beuarcracy that never shows up anyways

say. how many of you fella's would hop around on one leg because the crutches weren't sanctioned by hamheads in DC?

~CS~


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## jmsmith (Sep 10, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> Yeah, so , here we are a trade that can assumably fix an extention cord up , and probably make it a whole lot safer for the end user
> 
> but can't
> 
> ...


Guess I would if it paid good enough!!!
:laughing:
Anyway, don't see anything changing until the powers-that-be discover a little old-fashioned common sense! UNTIL THEN...
:whistling::whistling::whistling:

Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

BBQ said:


> Ahh 110.3(B) applies ......... it is listed.
> 
> 
> Let me ask you.
> ...


Again with the exerpts from the Shyster Lawyer/Politician Training Manual.

Chapter one, page one. _When you can't answer a qustion in a manner to prove your point or disprove your opponents point, simply deflect by asking them a bunch of non related questions that seem to call their credibility into question. _


I asked a simple question and you can't answer it without saying you were r...r....r...wrong.

Again, Where does it say that " you just can't modify a factory cord"?

If you would have stated this as opinion, no problem. If you want to now state that this is opinion, no problem. If yyou want to hold firm that this is fact, :jester:



And, how do you keep the listing intact when you identify your company cords? I'm thinking it can't be done without some kind of modification.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

220/221 said:


> Again with the exerpts from the Shyster Lawyer/Politician Training Manual.
> 
> Chapter one, page one. _When you can't answer a qustion in a manner to prove your point or disprove your opponents point, simply deflect by asking them a bunch of non related questions that seem to call their credibility into question. _


Right back at you, you blew off my questions you do not want to answer by questioning my motives.

My motives were clear, you have zero experience with OSHA and I wanted to point that out. 




> I asked a simple question and you can't answer it without saying you were r...r....r...wrong.


I have said I was wrong many times on these forums, sorry you have missed it. :laughing:



> Again, Where does it say that " you just can't modify a factory cord"?


You are right, you will not find those words, what you will find, and this is from OSHA not me



> The repair of cords and cord sets is permitted under 1926.404(b)(1)(iii)(C):
> 
> Each cord set, attachment cap, plug and receptacle of cord sets, and any equipment connected by cord and plug, except cord sets and receptacles which are fixed and not exposed to damage, shall be visually inspected before each day's use for external defects, such as deformed or missing pins or insulation damage, and for indications for possible internal damage. Equipment found damaged or defective shall not be used until repaired. (Emphasis added.)
> 
> Repairs of extension cords are therefore permitted under §1926.404(b)(1)(iii)(C). However, in order to remain compliant with §1926.403(a),* the repairs must return the equipment to the state in which it was initially approved. *


Another way to say that is you can't change it or modify it.

If you want to spit hairs over it have at it. :laughing:



> And, how do you keep the listing intact when you identify your company cords? I'm thinking it can't be done without some kind of modification.


Now you are just being stupid for the sake of an argument. 


Bottom line is if OSHA may be on the job site most contractors will do all they can to avoid a problem. If that means tossing a few $50 cords out on a couple million dollar job so be it. OSHA is not the origination you want to play games with when you earn your living on jobs where they are a factor.

They are not the people you want to mess with just for the sake of messing with them because you are your own man and do what you want when you want.

I am sure you are enough of a businessman to understand that.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

The repair of cords and cord sets is permitted under 1926.404(b)(1)(iii)(C):

Each cord set, attachment cap, plug and receptacle of cord sets, and any equipment connected by cord and plug, except cord sets and receptacles which are fixed and not exposed to damage, shall be visually inspected before each day's use for external defects, such as deformed or missing pins or insulation damage, and for indications for possible internal damage. Equipment found damaged or defective shall not be used until repaired. (Emphasis added.) 

Repairs of extension cords are therefore permitted under §1926.404(b)(1)(iii)(C). However, in order to remain compliant with §1926.403(a),* the repairs must return the equipment to the state in which it was initially approved. *


> Repairs of extension cords are therefore permitted under §1926.404(b)(1)(iii)(C). However, in order to remain compliant with §1926.403(a),* the repairs must return the equipment to the state in which it was initially approved. *


BBQ,
this is like the _black hole_ of rationale

a _vernacular_ vortex

an irresistable _semantic_ vs. an immovable _objection_

_~CS~_


----------



## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

BBQ said:


> Right back at you, you blew off my questions you do not want to answer by questioning my motives.


I don't have a problem answering you questions. I just wanted to get mine answered first which I finally did below.



> My motives were clear, you have zero experience with OSHA and I wanted to point that out.


I don't need OSHA experience (which I have little of). I just need to be able to read. OSHA says "The repair of cords and cord sets is permitted.."

The only specification is that they are returned to their original state. Anyone with an ounce of common logic would interpet that to mean "make sure the cord caps are grounded and are constructed with a decent clamp". I always liked those yellow ones that folded open.

This is a simple arguement about "original state". If, as some claim, this means *exactly* as manufactured, it *cannot *be accomplished. SOMETHING must be modified. Even if you took it back to the factory and had molded ends put on, the cord would be a couple inches shorter and unusable under your interpetation.

Use your head man.






> I have said I was wrong many times on these forums, sorry you have missed it.


 Say it again :laughing:





> You are right, you will not find those words, what you will find, and this is from OSHA not me


What I found was "The repair of cords and cord sets *is permitted*..." 





> Another way to say that is you can't change it or modify it.


 
Nope. It's another way to say it is that you can change or modify it as long as it is done properly.




> If you want to spit hairs over it have at it


. 

Im not splitting hairs, just using common sense.





> Now you are just being stupid for the sake of an argument


. 

Heh heh, yeah, *I'm* being stupid 




> Bottom line is if OSHA may be on the job site most contractors will do all they can to avoid a problem. If that means tossing a few $50 cords out on a couple million dollar job so be it. OSHA is not the origination you want to play games with when you earn your living on jobs where they are a factor.
> 
> They are not the people you want to mess with just for the sake of messing with them because you are your own man and do what you want when you want.
> 
> *I am sure you are enough of a businessman to understand that*.


I am a businessman, not just a chump that does what he is told. Sure, it makes your job easier just to take the 1000' of extension cords home to your garage. It's not unusual at all. It's one of the reasons that .75 million dollar jobs turn into million dollar jobs (not the extension cords, the attitude).

I'm not like that. If I am confronted with stupidity, I feel obligated to deal with it. _Once in a while_ I will roll over but I am enough of a business man to not let people push me around. Not even OSHA or IRS. 

I wouldn't mess with OSHA just to be messing with them. I have better things to do. If one OSHA guy told me I couldn't replace the cap, I'd ask another one. I deal with electrical inspectors the same way. A lot of the code is not black and white. If I feel my opinion/interpetation is correct, I will take the next, usually simple, step until things get worked out.


A couple years ago, the City of Phoenix took me to court over an "expired" permit issue. I could have just paid the $500 in question but the principle just pissed me off. I had to spend about 4 hours total downtown but in the end, I prevailed. I was up against six people on the city's staff including inspectors, prosecutors and a high dollar lawyer. 

I don't want to know how much money they wasted being stubborn just because no one had actually read *one simple sentence* on the permit. The inspectors kept inststing that A meant B when it clearly didn't. They had all just been taught that A meant B. They never gave any logical thought to it and they just kept repeating "A means B". In the end, the head prosecutor had to admit that A meant A, just as it was written.


I couldn't believe that no one had brought this simple thing up before. Maybe they just bullied everyone else into submission like they *tried *to do with me several times. To this day, the same verbage appears on the permits. They learned nothing.

I kind of got off track here but, *clearly you can repair cords*. That's why they have the section that says "*The repair of cords and cord sets is permitted..." *If you want to say that you constructed them using recycled cable, knock yourself out.


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## joethemechanic (Sep 21, 2011)

So should I start hacking up all my 8/4 SO cords with the yellow 3 jaw clamp Hubble twist locks?

Really I'd probably get good money for the copper if I burned it clean


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

220/221 said:


> I don't have a problem answering you questions. I just wanted to get mine answered first which I finally did below.


Despite that long dissertation you just wrote, you're still wrong about extension cords.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

So, how can we repair a cord, which is allowed, if "repair" means to make it exactly like it was from the factory, which is impossible?


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

InPhase277 said:


> So, how can we repair a cord, which is allowed, if "repair" means to make it exactly like it was from the factory, which is impossible?


If the manufactured cord came with replaceable caps on it when it left the factory, then you could presumably repair it. If it rolled off the assembly line with molded ends, then you could not repair it to its original state. That is how I am interpreting this.


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## Brian Dalton (Nov 9, 2011)

FYI....so cord has a male , and female end just like the caps.....much easer to put a male cord cap on the male end of the cord


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## joethemechanic (Sep 21, 2011)

I guess this is a reason to just not buy plastic molded cords. Really they suck anyway. Always getting F-ed up from welding sparks or some little piece of hot metal anyway


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

Peter D said:


> If the manufactured cord came with replaceable caps on it when it left the factory, then you could presumably repair it. If it rolled off the assembly line with molded ends, then you could not repair it to its original state. That is how I am interpreting this.


Use some logic.


1. How many extension cords come with replacable caps? I have a couple dozen and all have molded caps.

2. Wouldn't you likely have to cut some wire off when replacing the replacable caps? 

Use some logic and a dictionary if necessary.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

220/221 said:


> Use some logic.
> 
> 
> 1. How many extension cords come with replacable caps? I have a couple dozen and all have molded caps.
> ...


1. None that I am aware of. 

2. Probably, but not necessarily.

So the net conclusion is that you cannot repair an extension cord with molded caps on it.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

mcclary's electrical said:


> OSHA says you can return the cord to it's factory approved state. *That in itself proves you cannot "home make" cords*.


 
State = condition, not clone.

They are obviously saying they want grounded cords with durable caps and no exposed wires.

Not.rocket.science.

And, again, you cannot return a cord to the precise condition it left the factory. It cannot be done....by anybody....anywhere.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

Peter D said:


> So the net conclusion is that *you* cannot repair an extension cord with molded caps on it.


 
Wrong. *I *can certainly repair an extension cord with molded caps on it.



Your net conclusion is that the rule was written to cover something that doesn't exist.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

There are plenty of people that cannot understand plain english here, so the best way to settle this is straight from the horses mouth. I will be contacting osha, and I will let you know exactly what I am told. If I'm wrong, I'l admit it. But I'm only doing it to prove I'm right.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> There are plenty of people that cannot understand plain english here, so the best way to settle this is straight from the horses ass. I will be contacting osha, and I will let you know exactly what I am told. If I'm wrong, I'l admit it. But I'm only doing it to prove I'm right.


I corrected your post:jester:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

220/221 said:


> Wrong. *I *can certainly repair an extension cord with molded caps on it.


Sure, you can do whatever you want. I have cords with non-factory ends on them, but you can bet if I knew OSHA was going to be around, they would not be on the job site.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

Peter D said:


> Sure, you can do whatever you want. I have cords with non-factory ends on them, but you can bet if I knew OSHA was going to be around, they would not be on the job site.


 
:thumbup:


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

Nothing wrong with replacing cord caps. Do it all the time. Why would they make them if you couldn't use them?


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

nitro71 said:


> Nothing wrong with replacing cord caps. Do it all the time. Why would they make them if you couldn't use them?


 
For homeowners, not construction sites that osha visits. 

Also, that's a silly point, many things are manufactured that are illegal, brass knuckles, radar detectors, headlight blackout kits, license plate covers, marijuana pipes, the list is endless.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> For homeowners, not construction sites that osha visits.
> 
> Also, that's a silly point, many things are manufactured that are illegal, brass knuckles, radar detectors, headlight blackout kits, license plate covers, marijuana pipes, the list is endless.


I'll buy that but I'm still going to replace them and use them.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

mcclary's electrical said:


> For homeowners, not construction sites that osha visits.
> 
> Also, that's a silly point, many things are manufactured that are illegal, brass knuckles, radar detectors, headlight blackout kits, license plate covers, marijuana pipes, the list is endless.


 
whew!

i buy 100' cords, but they always get _shorter_ 'cause i like to use 'em for appliances in resi kitchens

~CS~


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

How often does OSHA visit residential sites and smaller commercial sites. In 22 years including some sizable commercial sites I have yet to see OSHA. And 3/4 ofmy cords have replacement ends. They'd have a field day with one outfit that now illegally does it's own electrical work. The illegals were using lamp style extension cords , open wires into outlets. But they will never see them.


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## jmsmith (Sep 10, 2011)

mcclary's electrical said:


> For homeowners, not construction sites that osha visits.
> 
> Also, that's a silly point, many things are manufactured that are illegal, brass knuckles, radar detectors, headlight blackout kits, license plate covers, marijuana pipes, the list is endless.


What is legal or illegal depends on where you're at.... Most of the part of the country I run around in down here a radar detector is legal, although frowned-upon! I can still carry a handgun (so far). Like everything else, up to the AHJ!!!
:laughing::jester:

Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


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## jmsmith (Sep 10, 2011)

Shockdoc said:


> How often does OSHA visit residential sites and smaller commercial sites. In 22 years including some sizable commercial sites I have yet to see OSHA. And 3/4 ofmy cords have replacement ends. They'd have a field day with one outfit that now illegally does it's own electrical work. The illegals were using lamp style extension cords , open wires into outlets. But they will never see them.


In all honesty, Shockdoc, I dealt with OSHA more than I cared to on two types of projects- government and power utilities (oops... Forgot a couple of railroad jobs). I've only seen them on two commercial jobs, I think that they were there, sadly, to investigate an accident that involved a death. Neither one involved an electrician or electricity in any way.

Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Bulldog1 said:


> I have so many old cords laying around I started throwing the damaged ones in the scrap bin. The more space I have the more junk or treasures I fill it with. Less cords equals more treasures. :laughing:


I'm about to take a bunch and strip it and bundle the conductors up in heat shrink to make some new trailer harnesses for our trailers, it's nice not getting tickets for faulty trailer lights while you're on the way to a job. :laughing:


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Shockdoc said:


> How often does OSHA visit residential sites and smaller commercial sites. In 22 years including some sizable commercial sites I have yet to see OSHA. And 3/4 ofmy cords have replacement ends. They'd have a field day with one outfit that now illegally does it's own electrical work. The illegals were using lamp style extension cords , open wires into outlets. But they will never see them.


I gotta keep a constant eye out for the Mexicans here, they'll go off on a mission doin' all manner of 'lectrical no-no's , gotta keep all the panels locked, etc....

It's not that they're malicous, they just seem to have lax standards, i guess they're used to doing anything they're told with a minimalist approach

That said, Osha's made 3 visits to my job in the last 5 months _(which is more than i've seen in the last 20 yrs) _, and i can't afford thier wrath , be it by my own hand , or others

Funny thing, i've been wearing my safety lanyard on the manlifts from day #1, caught a lotta ch*t for it, bondage jokes, etc

Osha shows up with their cameras, and suddenly i'm _'Mr Best Dressed worker'_

~CS~


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## LARMGUY (Aug 22, 2010)

garfield said:


> This is a letter from osha I found on the internet but I still don't know if I can put an end on a cord because it wouldn't be molded and identical?
> April 4, 2010
> 
> Letter # 20070926-7973
> ...


*This entire letter is a qualified yes answer with an emphasis on no.*


The paragraph above in blue is the sole note of controversy among all the answers given. Factory molded on plug ends vs replaceable ends.


The real controversy seems to be defining "approved". Obviously factory cords are approved. Should a repaired cord be approved but to a lesser extent because it no longer has the factory molded connectors but still functions as an "approved" extention cord.


I still say the following paragraph where the repair of the cord is done by onsite electricians tested and logged then "approved" by the OSHA onsite AHJ is the final answer.




jmsmith said:


> With all respect, sir, I find that kinda funny seeing that in all my years with a major contractor that dealt in heavy industrial projects for DOTs, Government, and Railroads that I am jumping to any conclusions here. I have had to be certified in OSHA 30 and have had the "pleasure" of dealing with them on a pretty regular basis. If the other contractors had problems with their cords or corded equipment, they were to tag it and bring it to US for repair and test. We had to have a man on site to do this. It was to be returned only after the repair had been signed-off and logged. This log was to be kept along with the *approved *grounding log. Both of these records were required to be submitted to the customer and OSHA on a regular basis. A lot of or work was in areas that you don't even have a supply house or Lowe's/Home Depot around. All I have stated here is what I have gathered from discussion with OSHA inspectors on different jobs I have been on. BTW, I believe that OSHA is about as open to interpretation as the NEC. :blink:
> Have a good day....
> - Jim
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


----------



## CraigV (May 12, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> BBQ,
> this is like the _black hole_ of rationale
> 
> a _vernacular_ vortex
> ...


It's egregious, salacious, preposterous. 

[/JackieChilds]


----------



## Semi-Ret Electrician (Nov 10, 2011)

Most of my life I've been in a supervisory position on 50 to 1000 man jobs. One day when things were slow I made a 1 hour tour of my plant and documented about 30 electrical deficiencies, I returned to my office to start making up work orders.

OSHA stopped by for a visit! Oh crap!
They headed straight for the bench grinders (as usual) no problems. Next they spotted orange tubing in a multi-tube bundle and went into orbit!

What was in that tubing? 20 PSI air I answered. They left, no deficiencies found.

Never had an issue with any OSHA or AHJ that was not reasonable.

I suspect repairing a cord on-site is purely good economics. Why spend $100 (2 men 2hours + material) when you can give them the old cord, make them happy and limit your liability.


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## rlewis581 (Nov 1, 2011)

*UL listing*



garfield said:


> This is a letter from osha I found on the internet but I still don't know if I can put an end on a cord because it wouldn't be molded and identical?
> April 4, 2010
> 
> Letter # 20070926-7973
> ...


 Here's a story for you!
I was working on a job in Las Vegas, Nevada, years ago. The OSHA inspector showed up and took my personal 8-way splitter box. He told me that he was going to take it and keep it to use for an example. He said it wasn't UL approved. I argued that the components were UL approved and showed him the stamps on the boxes etc. He argued that is was not UL approved as an assembly and was not approved for the purpose that is was being used. I bought his argument. He was right, but told him it was my personal property, that I would remove it from the site, that he could go F*$% himself and if he touched it he would probably have to shoot me to take it. He promptly backed off and we had an agreement.
So to answer your question. NO. If you alter the cord in any way you have to get another UL approval for it as a new assembly.

Hope this helps.

I don't have quotes for this, but I'm sure if you really want to take the time you can look it up and prove it to yourself. 
You could search UL listing requirements and OHSA requirements.

Roger:thumbsup:


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## donaldelectrician (Sep 30, 2010)

*Whether extension cords may be repaired and returned to use.*

One 25" , #10 AWG back in service ! IN MY TRUCK !


NO BRAINER !



Donald " Outstanding Citizen of the Conch Republic "


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## socalelect (Nov 14, 2011)

what about temp power cords , these come from the "factory" with cord caps on them ? and i dont belive i have seen a UL label on them are they approved ?


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## CraigV (May 12, 2011)

donaldelectrician said:


> One 25" , #10 AWG back in service ! IN MY TRUCK !
> 
> 
> NO BRAINER !
> ...


 
You have much use for a 25-inch extension cord?


:whistling2:


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## JDJ (Aug 9, 2011)

For what it's worth. Every job I've been on has had OSHA visitations. Some courtesy some investigations. Up till about 5 years ago replacing ends was ok. Now it is a no. Sometimes not just a no but an inspector cuts your cord no.


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## MattMc (May 30, 2011)

I have also made most of my own cords, I usually put a gfci on them. I do alot of work in boiler rooms, arena zamboni rooms, pool pump rooms and other mechanical rooms that can have alot of water around. I've never been told not to use one of my cords but I have seen guys get nailed for it.


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## jmsmith (Sep 10, 2011)

I have worked several lock&dam projects for the Corps of Engineers. The mechanical contractors that we worked with were forever destroying cords on the Flyte pumps that were used to pump out their coffer dams. These pumps came with molded end cords. Do you think they were tossing-out $600 to $1000 pumps because of a broken ground or cut cord? I think not! Most of the were molded ends from the factory. We made repairs on site. OSHA had nothing to say bad about it, we had NO cords cut, and were NEVER fined. The last one of these I did was at Keokuk, Iowa for the Quad Cities District, LESS than 3 years ago. Go figure! :blinking:

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## CraigV (May 12, 2011)

JDJ said:


> For what it's worth. Every job I've been on has had OSHA visitations. Some courtesy some investigations. Up till about 5 years ago replacing ends was ok. Now it is a no. Sometimes not just a no but an inspector cuts your cord no.


I want to see this, have to call bullsh1te on it until I do. I've never heard of any inspector from any AHJ or agency given the right to damage property. I can easily see a GC cutting up his own company property to prove a cord isn't usable, but not the inspector, ever.


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## JDJ (Aug 9, 2011)

CraigV said:


> I want to see this, have to call bullsh1te on it until I do. I've never heard of any inspector from any AHJ or agency given the right to damage property. I can easily see a GC cutting up his own company property to prove a cord isn't usable, but not the inspector, ever.


Call Bull**** all you like. I never said they had the right to cut them. Just had a few overzealous green inspectors who were apparently high on power invested in them.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

jmsmith said:


> I have worked several lock&dam projects for the Corps of Engineers. The mechanical contractors that we worked with were forever destroying cords on the Flyte pumps that were used to pump out their coffer dams. These pumps came with molded end cords. Do you think they were tossing-out $600 to $1000 pumps because of a broken ground or cut cord? I think not! Most of the were molded ends from the factory. We made repairs on site. OSHA had nothing to say bad about it, we had NO cords cut, and were NEVER fined. The last one of these I did was at Keokuk, Iowa for the Quad Cities District, LESS than 3 years ago. Go figure! :blinking:
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


Your changing the subject, and like it or not, you voided the ul listing by doing this. Can everybody please stop with the"we've been doing it for years BS. By that logic, drunk driving is legal.


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## JPRO2 (Dec 17, 2008)

Again with this bull**** an electrician can wire a hospital and all of the critical life saving equipment yet were not allowed to replace a god damn cord end when does it end!


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## Semi-Ret Electrician (Nov 10, 2011)

rlewis581 said:


> Here's a story for you!
> I was working on a job in Las Vegas, Nevada, years ago. The OSHA inspector showed up and took my personal 8-way splitter box. He told me that he was going to take it and keep it to use for an example. He said it wasn't UL approved. I argued that the components were UL approved and showed him the stamps on the boxes etc. He argued that is was not UL approved as an assembly and was not approved for the purpose that is was being used. I bought his argument. He was right, but told him it was my personal property, that I would remove it from the site, that he could go F*$% himself and if he touched it he would probably have to shoot me to take it. He promptly backed off and we had an agreement.
> So to answer your question. NO. If you alter the cord in any way you have to get another UL approval for it as a new assembly.
> 
> ...


Roger, that remark from an OSHA inspector was very lame. Why does this world need an electrician if the only time a piece of equipment, system, facility, dwelling etc. is legal, is if it is a complete UL (CSA,FM etc.) listed system?

With that inspectors logic the minute we trim the leads on a light fixture, dimmer, occupancy sensor, solenoid valve, CT, etc. we assume liability and void the agency listing, because it's no longer what they tested.

Using that inspectors logic, UL would have to test an entire house and list it as a system to pass. Add a receptacle and you're an outlaw.

I've read all the posts (above) and studied the following UL "white book" listings (ZJCZ, ELBZ) and the inspector was technically correct but, I think if an electrician can pass a 6 hour electrical test they can probably make up a safe cord set. Maybe we need to all have our own stamps (like PE's, welders etc.). If an inspector sees that we certify something to be correct we're putting our reputation, license, and finances on the line and they should allow us some lattitude.


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## CraigV (May 12, 2011)

Semi-Ret Electrician said:


> I've read all the posts (above) and studied the following UL "white book" listings (ZJCZ, ELBZ) and the inspector was technically correct but, I think if an electrician can pass a 6 hour electrical test they can probably make up a safe cord set. Maybe we need to all have our own stamps (like PE's, welders etc.). If an inspector sees that we certify something to be correct we're putting our reputation, license, and finances on the line and they should allow us some lattitude.


Pay me a PE's hourly rate, and I'll assume that responsibility!!!


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## jmsmith (Sep 10, 2011)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Your changing the subject, and like it or not, you voided the ul listing by doing this. Can everybody please stop with the"we've been doing it for years BS. By that logic, drunk driving is legal.


I wasn't saying it was legal, and was NOT changing the subject... I was talking about repairing damaged cords. I know that the UL LISTING is voided on tested assemblies, but these actions were approved in these instances. Come on people, there needs to be sometime when both we electricians and inspectors need to use a little common horse sense! Y'all have a good day....

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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Your changing the subject, and like it or not, you voided the ul listing by doing this. .


Listings mean nothing in these cases. Listings must be violated every single day in order to get equipment installed. We modify equipment in the field. That's what we do. That is part of our job description. Haven't you ever drilled a hole in a box or panel?


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## troublemaker1701 (Aug 11, 2011)

I worked for a company we fixed cord ends all the time on both cords and tools. We also inspected all cords & tools monthly and kept a written log of inspections. We marked them with a quarterly color.
(January, February and March)-white
(April, May and June)-green
(July, August and September)-red
(October, November and December)-orange
We added yellow for the second month of any quarter and blue for the third month in any quarter.
We never had any problem with osha


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## amptech (Sep 21, 2007)

220/221 said:


> Listings mean nothing in these cases. Listings must be violated every single day in order to get equipment installed. We modify equipment in the field. That's what we do. That is part of our job description. Haven't you ever drilled a hole in a box or panel?


I actually had a safety inspector try to ding me for punching holes in a tub. It was a 15k sqft house and the panels were commercial tubs/interiors. I was in the process of punching KOs with my greenlee when this safety guy was making his rounds. He told me I could not make field penetrations in the enclosure because it would void the listing. We had to get his boss on the phone to straighten it out. He had never seen a panel in a house that didn't have factory KOs.


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## Control Freak (Mar 8, 2008)

How about welding machines the fitters use? I've yet to see one that has the original cord! Unless they were new of course.

When we get a refurbished or repaired GB cyclone on the job they replace the cord to the controller usually cause they get beaten up pretty bad do they UL tested again?

I guess the issue is over regulation vs under regulation. These rules are in place to stop real dangers from happening but we all suffer. Just like when you get a hotshot inspector with a fresh license who wants to make a point!!!


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

amptech said:


> I actually had a safety inspector try to ding me for punching holes in a tub. .


 
Those kind of people will always be with us. :jester:

All you can do is shake your head :no: and educate them.


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## Semi-Ret Electrician (Nov 10, 2011)

CFR 29 Part 1926 Subpart K, 1926.403 requires all electric equipment to be approved. "Approved" is defined in 1926.449 as being "acceptable," and is defined as "accepted", or certified, or listed, or labeled, or otherwise determined to be safe by a qualified testing laboratory. http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=INTERPRETATIONS&p_id=24571


I just got this from a friend at UL :"As for replacing a cord cap, there are UL Listed replacement cord caps. OSHA allows for construction cords to be repaired with listed cord caps."

Jeffrey A. Fecteau CBO, ECO
Lead Regulatory Engineer
---------------------------------- 
Underwriters Laboratories
Wyoming, MN. 55092
M: (952) 838-5453
F: (847) 313-3869
W: ul.com

Don't have all the details but below is a link to a manufacturer that shows UL approved replacement caps etc. IMO they exceed the spec. of the orignal caps supplied with cordsets.

http://www.mid-statemfg.com/pdfs/midstate_catalog.pdf#page=6


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## jmsmith (Sep 10, 2011)

Semi-Ret Electrician said:


> CFR 29 Part 1926 Subpart K, 1926.403 requires all electric equipment to be approved. "Approved" is defined in 1926.449 as being "acceptable," and is defined as "accepted", or certified, or listed, or labeled, or otherwise determined to be safe by a qualified testing laboratory. http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=INTERPRETATIONS&p_id=24571
> 
> I just got this from a friend at UL :"As for replacing a cord cap, there are UL Listed replacement cord caps. OSHA allows for construction cords to be repaired with listed cord caps."
> 
> ...


Don't hold your breath, Maurice... You just as well be bangin' your head against a brick wall!!!!
:laughing:

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## MattMc (May 30, 2011)

I think when one of us electricians puts an end on a cord it should be approved A: it was approved for sale as a replacement cord cap with proper approval listed on cap and the package and B: installed by a qualified person. I could see rejecting a plumber or tin whackers repaired cord but even still seems like rubbish to nitpick over petty stuff. Maybe if they actually test and prove it to be improperly wired but they aren't electricians they are safety inspectors. They have good purpose on jobsites but this to me does seem to be rediculous.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Semi-Ret Electrician said:


> CFR 29 Part 1926 Subpart K, 1926.403 requires all electric equipment to be approved. "Approved" is defined in 1926.449 as being "acceptable," and is defined as "accepted", or certified, or listed, or labeled, or otherwise determined to be safe by a qualified testing laboratory. http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=INTERPRETATIONS&p_id=24571
> 
> 
> I just got this from a friend at UL :"As for replacing a cord cap, there are UL Listed replacement cord caps. OSHA allows for construction cords to be repaired with listed cord caps."
> ...


 
We already know OSHA allows cord caps to be replaced with approved listed cord caps. We all agree on that. Where your friend, and many others are wrong, is a clamp on cord end does not return the cord to it's approved state. It does not keep water out. If your link would have been to a molded cord cap, I'd be with you. But a clamp on is in no way shape or form, water tight, or even close to original state.


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## JPRO2 (Dec 17, 2008)

Who cares if it's water tight the outlet your plugging into making a water tight connection. The drill your plugging into that cord doesn't make a water right connection. What if it becomes loose in the outlet **** we better make all extension cord twist lock


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## joethemechanic (Sep 21, 2011)




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## Semi-Ret Electrician (Nov 10, 2011)

jmsmith said:


> Don't hold your breath, Maurice... You just as well be bangin' your head against a brick wall!!!!
> :laughing:
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


I learned while SCUBA diving to never hold my breath, it causes the bends. Also, if you do it during a polygraph test, you fail:laughing:

As the OSHA ruling I quoted pointed out their policy is to allow what the listing agencies, (UL, FM, CSA, ETL, PS, TUV etc.) allow. "Approved" to OSHA means "accepted, or certified or listed or labeled or otherwise determined to be safe by a qualified testing laboratory. 

The same goes with NFPA. They publish the NEC. They don't have the manpower or the inclination to be in the codemaking business. The AHJ enforces the Code adopted by their jurisdiction (which may be stricter than the current Code.

Therfore, don't be afraid to confront an inspector, or his boss if he makes a bad call. Arm yourself with the proper documents and stand up for yourself! 

As far as giving up (or brick walls) every NEC codebook has a sheet, in the back, which can be used by anyone to revise the next codebook.
I just sat through a four day workshop and listened to folks like you and I make their case and I got to vote yea or nay to include their suggestions in the next code cycle. Nothing could be easier and the folks with common sense are the ones that get listened to.

However, the attendees didn't just fall off a turnip truck and the quickest way to loose the argument is to drag out the four letter words or get abusive, just like the real world.


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## CraigV (May 12, 2011)

jmsmith said:


> Don't hold your breath, Maurice... You just as well be bangin' your head against a brick wall!!!!
> :laughing:
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


True dat.


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## CraigV (May 12, 2011)

mcclary's electrical said:


> We already know OSHA allows cord caps to be replaced with approved listed cord caps. We all agree on that. Where your friend, and many others are wrong, is a clamp on cord end does not return the cord to it's approved state. It does not keep water out. If your link would have been to a molded cord cap, I'd be with you. But a clamp on is in no way shape or form, water tight, or even close to original state.


Why do you assume that a molded cap is water tight? I've seen molded ends, both on tools and extension cords that failed, and cutting them open revealed corrosion. Often a molded end that isn't watertight will fail sooner than an open cap that will drain and dry out.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

mcclary's electrical said:


> . It does not keep water out.


 
You can't seriously think that UL tests and approves extension cords for use underwater.....right?

You are _still_ grasping at straws here.

The approved *state* means _it is grounded (if applicable), it is polarized properly, it has caps that are securely fastened at the terminals and the cable and it has no wire showing._

Government agencies aren't smart enough to write one simple sentence.


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## JDJ (Aug 9, 2011)

Just sat through a lighting seminar yesterday. Interesting point made. UL just means when it left it was in approved condition. I don't disagree that we Should be able to replace, but inspectors in the area seem to feel different.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

OSHA interpretation on the use of job made extension cords.

It does talk about "approved" but it also explains what be would needed to return a cord to that "approved" condition: If the components themselves are listed, and they are assembled as intended, and the assembler is a qualified person who checks the completed product, then it looks like you're good to go.

-John


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

I sent a question to OSHA via one of the links in this thread. I asked them specifically if I could replace the moulded end caps on extension cords and explained that there were differences of opinions on "approved state"

Their reply came back today.


Yes, you may repair the extension cord. When referring to the requirement to return a cord to its original state, that refers to it's original "approval" (i.e, by Underwriter's Laboratories). An extension cord may be repaired so long as the cord is returned to its original approval rating, in other words, *so long as it is returned to a state that will make it at least as protective in terms of its safety and insulative properties*_._​ 
The following link will take you to an OSHA interpretation on this subject that may be helpful to you:​ 
http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=INTERPRETATIONS&p_id=27353​ 

I didn't read the link yet.


Edit. It's not a new link. Same old thing.

Of course, _someone_ will still argue that a cord cap is not as safe as a moulded plug.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

220/221 said:


> I sent a question to OSHA via one of the links in this thread. I asked them specifically if I could replace the moulded end caps on extension cords and explained that there were differences of opinions on "approved state"
> 
> Their reply came back today.
> 
> ...


And that's the same old runaround. A clamp on cord cap is not returning it to a state that is the same as insulative properties, since it won't keep water out.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

mcclary's electrical said:


> And that's the same old runaround. A clamp on cord cap is not returning it to a state that is the same as insulative properties, since it won't keep water out.


 
Insulative properties obviously refer to electrical insulation, not H2O.


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## bullmike (Jun 13, 2011)

In the shipyard I work in, which is visited quite often by OSHA , they have never said anything on "cord caps" to repair extension cords , but they frown upon any kind of tape anywhere on the cord


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## Semi-Ret Electrician (Nov 10, 2011)

220/221 said:


> Yes, you may repair the extension cord. When referring to the requirement to return a cord to its original state, that refers to it's original "approval" (i.e, by Underwriter's Laboratories). An extension cord may be repaired so long as the cord is returned to its original approval rating, in other words, *so long as it is returned to a state that will make it at least as protective in terms of its safety and insulative properties*_._​
> 
> Of course, _someone_ will still argue that a cord cap is not as safe as a moulded plug.​


220/221, You got the same answer from OSHA as I got from the lead Regulatory Engineer at UL, by e-mail and a lenthy phone conversation. He called again after I posted his answer and told him I posted his answer and phone number. He didn't have a problem with that, that's why he's there.

Again, his answer is Yes. 

If some field inspector has a problem with that, he/she needs to take it up with their boss. Most general purpose OSHA inspectors aren't electricians or even qualified to discuss the topic. 

The way it was explained was if a qualified person cuts the ends off a piece of SO cord they now have the same piece of cord as if they just bought it at the supply house. If they install a UL listed receptacle on one end and a UL listed cap on the other end, they now have a perfectly legal cord.


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## Semi-Ret Electrician (Nov 10, 2011)

bullmike said:


> In the shipyard I work in, which is visited quite often by OSHA , they have never said anything on "cord caps" to repair extension cords , but they frown upon any kind of tape anywhere on the cord


I'll bet the shipyard, industries and many construction companies have a PM program , as was previously mentioned, to inspect, repair and test (megger) all their cords on a regular basis. If one is being used and it's out of date somebody is going to get nailed.

To me, that is much better than what you get off a production line. And all good inspectors should and do applaud them for it. That's what I've seem and done for the last 50 years in all types of industries and have never been questioned.


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