# Inspector rejects Generac svc rated tswitch



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

I love hearing inspectors who want a disconnect installed ahead of a standby generator so it can be ''shut off'' by the fire department.... terrific idea on their part..


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

farmantenna said:


> will be interesting how this situation will ultimately be resolved.
> 
> we installed (I installed for my employing CO) a 3 phase 600Amp Generac service rated transfer switch, Model ATC-300,I think that's the controller's number and our inspector is rejecting it as not suitable for a service switch because the procedure required to disconnect power is too complicated for firemen to readily understand. Yes, that's the argument right now with the fire department agreeing with him.
> 
> ...


Installing a big switch before it will only make it sense loss of utility, and crank up the genny


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

It's been said too many times to count... get a code section from the inspector. If he can't provide one I don't understand how he cannot approve the installation.

Pete


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

When you open the door are there exposed live parts? 
Do you need a tool to open the door?


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## farmantenna (Nov 22, 2012)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> When you open the door are there exposed live parts?
> Do you need a tool to open the door?


No and no


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## farmantenna (Nov 22, 2012)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Installing a big switch before it will only make it sense loss of utility, and crank up the genny


What I should have said is before the MDP but after this transfer switch. That would turn off all power to building.


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## Expediter (Mar 12, 2014)

Mr. Inspector, Firemen, Peeps. 

You say that this disconnect which is rated for service by the MFG, is so complicated that Men who can pass a test which takes trigonometry to pass, relating to water pressure, pumps, volumes of water, Siphoning, Infrared cameras, 2-way radios on multiple frequency's, Radio scanners, and who drive around a 1.5 Million dollar truck on a regular basis, cannot operate this switch because it is too complicated? :no::no::no:


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Here, we have to install an EPO switch within 20' of the generator.
They could always be jerks and just flood the unit intake.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

farmantenna said:


> No and no


Well that eliminates those two issues for being the reason for the rejection.

Do you have a link to the transfer switch? When I search that number comes up as an Eaton, not a Generac product.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Code section or GTFO.


I think I'm gonna get that as a hard hat sticker. :laughing:


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## Tom Solanto (Mar 11, 2011)

Is the ATS on the building? Since the generator is feeding a structure it has to comply with 240.21C 4 if it is a separately derived system. If it is not then it still has to comply with 225.31 and 32. As for the complexity of the mechanism. IMOHO that is balony! If it is listed to be used in this way the AHJ should not have issued a violation. All that being said 90.4 gives him the right to do so.

90.4 Enforcement. This Code is intended to be suitable
for mandatory application by governmental bodies that exercise
legal jurisdiction over electrical installations, including
signaling and communications systems, and for use by
insurance inspectors. The authority having jurisdiction for
enforcement of the Code has the responsibility for making
interpretations of the rules, for deciding on the approval of
equipment and materials, and for granting the special permission
contemplated in a number of the rules.
By special permission, the authority having jurisdiction
may waive specific requirements in this Code or permit
alternative methods where it is assured that equivalent objectives
can be achieved by establishing and maintaining
effective safety.
This Code may require new products, constructions, or
materials that may not yet be available at the time the Code
is adopted. In such event, the authority having jurisdiction
may permit the use of the products, constructions, or materials
that comply with the most recent previous edition of
this Code adopted by the jurisdiction.

*240.21 c4
(4) Outside Secondary Conductors. Where the conductors
are located outdoors of a building or structure, except
at the point of load termination, and comply with all of the
following conditions:
(1) The conductors are protected from physical damage in
an approved manner.
(2) The conductors terminate at a single circuit breaker or
a single set of fuses that limit the load to the ampacity
of the conductors. This single overcurrent device shall
be permitted to supply any number of additional overcurrent
devices on its load side.
(3) The overcurrent device for the conductors is an integral
part of a disconnecting means or shall be located immediately
adjacent thereto.
(4) The disconnecting means for the conductors is installed
at a readily accessible location complying with one of
the following:
a. Outside of a building or structure
b. Inside, nearest the point of entrance of the conductors
c. Where installed in accordance with 230.6, nearest
the point of entrance of the conductors*


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

farmantenna said:


> This selector switch is a small keyed switch that disconnects power by a powered mechanical motor that turns circuit breakers off. I had never seen this switch before and haven't seen it in operation because it's not connected to utility system yet. I guess if this switch doesn't work you have a manual lever that you move about 3 times to rotate the mechanism to the NEUTRAL position. It's somewhat confusing because you don't just move the lever down once to an off position. I've played with the lever once *and it requires some reading* and when it's in the position you think you want the little indicating wheel only says NEUT any thoughts anyone?


I can see why the inspector is concerned with this. You installed it and have admitted that the manual operation is not the same as how most disconnects (one throw of the hand instead of pumping 3 times) operate, plus you also said it took some reading to understand it. During the emotions of fighting a fire, I wouldn't want to have to read and digest how to make sure the electricity is off to a building.

By any chance did the equipment say which UL listing it was complying with?

Interesting thread. :thumbsup:


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

I semi agree with inspector, I have installed many 200 amp generac ATS units. Problem I see is the outer cover should be hinged and not screwed .


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

hardworkingstiff said:


> During the emotions of fighting a fire, I wouldn't want to have to read and digest how to make sure the electricity is off to a building.


Having been my engine co's token sparky , i could speak volumes on this point 

Thx ~CS~:thumbsup:


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## shortcircuit2 (Jan 4, 2015)

Tom Solanto said:


> All that being said 90.4 gives him the right to do so.
> 
> 90.4 Enforcement. This Code is intended to be suitable
> for mandatory application by governmental bodies that exercise
> ...



*Massachusetts Electrical Code* amends the 1st paragraph of 90.4 to say this...

90.4 Enforcement. This code shall be used by the authority enforcing the Code and exercising legal jurisdiction over electrical installations. The authority having jurisdiction of enforcement of the Code *shall accept listed and labeled equipment or materials where used or installed in accordance with the instructions included with the listing or labeling*. The authority shall have the responsibility for deciding upon the approval of unlisted or unlabeled equipment and materials, and for granting special permission contemplated in a number of rules.

So, the AHJ *SHALL* accept your equipment if installed in accordance with the listing in Massachusetts.

shortcircuit


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> Having been my engine co's token sparky , i could speak volumes on this point
> 
> Thx ~CS~:thumbsup:


Having been my ladder co's token sparky, I bet I could make the same points. :thumbsup:


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## farmantenna (Nov 22, 2012)

shortcircuit2 said:


> *Massachusetts Electrical Code* amends the 1st paragraph of 90.4 to say this...
> 
> 90.4 Enforcement. This code shall be used by the authority enforcing the Code and exercising legal jurisdiction over electrical installations. The authority having jurisdiction of enforcement of the Code *shall accept listed and labeled equipment or materials where used or installed in accordance with the instructions included with the listing or labeling*. The authority shall have the responsibility for deciding upon the approval of unlisted or unlabeled equipment and materials, and for granting special permission contemplated in a number of rules.
> 
> ...


Thanks. I thought there was something in Mass code that said that but could not find it and dismissed that route.


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## shortcircuit2 (Jan 4, 2015)

Be aware you have only 10 days to appeal the AHJ's decision to the Board of Electricians under MGL 143 Section 3P.


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## farmantenna (Nov 22, 2012)

shortcircuit2 said:


> Be aware you have only 10 days to appeal the AHJ's decision to the Board of Electricians under MGL 143 Section 3P.


Dont think we'll be appealing to Board because the local inspector has been communicating with someone or some people on the Board and they're making calls and I heard UL is one target. 

But NSTAR came today to connect everything and we thought all was good but 
they initially misssed the special note on work order to wait for inspector's approval. So they wasted some money on police detail...


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

farmantenna said:


> Dont think we'll be appealing to Board because the local inspector has been communicating with someone or some people on the Board and they're making calls and I heard UL is one target.


What does that mean? UL is a target? A target of what? Curious.

Thanks.


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## farmantenna (Nov 22, 2012)

hardworkingstiff said:


> What does that mean? UL is a target? A target of what? Curious.
> 
> Thanks.


A phone call


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## NacBooster29 (Oct 25, 2010)

U.l is simply a testing agency. 
They don't care what the NEC, or local amendments state. 
If a company pays them to test a product..and the specifications for said product is met, that's it.


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## shortcircuit2 (Jan 4, 2015)

Well get a section of the code your in violation of. Let us know for our future information.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

farmantenna said:


> Dont think we'll be appealing to Board because the local inspector has been communicating with someone or some people on the Board and they're making calls and I heard UL is one target.
> 
> But NSTAR came today to connect everything and we thought all was good but
> they initially misssed the special note on work order to wait for inspector's approval. So they wasted some money on police detail...


If you still have access to the transfer switch, can you get the "E" number on the UL listing sticker?


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## mgraw (Jan 14, 2011)

ATC-300 transfer switches are an Eaton product. If it is an Eaton product their listing is as follows
"Eaton ATSs are listed in File E38116 by Underwriters Laboratories, Inc.
under Standard UL 1008."


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## Aegis (Mar 18, 2011)

I would agree with the inspector on this. Even though you've installed it, you're going to stand by what you've done and not want to change it. Disconnects should be super easy to turn off and require less then a second to figure out.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Most genny's have an OCPD... so would 702.12 factor in here?

~CS~


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## RFguy (Sep 11, 2013)

NacBooster29 said:


> U.l is simply a testing agency.
> They don't care what the NEC, or local amendments state.
> If a company pays them to test a product..and the specifications for said product is met, that's it.


In Canada it's the CSA, and your sentence would read like this:

_If a company pays them to *pass* a product..and the specifications for said product is met, that's it._

Up here, some companies pay enough money to have equipment certified by CSA without the inconvenience of going through a testing process.

Source:
http://www.restorecsa.com/news/article/faked-csa-safety-testing-in-canada
http://www.restorecsa.com/lawsuit#214


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

Shockdoc said:


> I semi agree with inspector, I have installed many 200 amp generac ATS units. Problem I see is the outer cover should be hinged and not screwed .


If you need to turn screws to get to the disconnect, then it is not suitable for use as a disconnect under the 2014 code.


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## farmantenna (Nov 22, 2012)

There are no screws to remove to open disconnect just quick hasps(?)

All I know is a manufacturer can't just make something and sell it that doesn't comply with codes and standards .that's my simplistic and ignorant perspective.it says it is a service disconnect. Again,I'm ignorant, there has to be standards that have to be met for the manufacturers when designing their equipment. Does UL have standards for such switches when they're submitted to them?

So Generac(Eaton's name is all over it) just makes these rogue transfer switches without any approval from any entity?they're being disapproved all over the country? Again,I'm ignorant,I rely upon that UL sticker to tell me it meets the standards it purports to meet if I install it according to their instructions and other codes.

Their instructions suck. There is NOT ONE sentence describing the operation of that little keyed SELECTOR switch.Only a canvas bag with tiny little stickers saying SERVICE DISCONNET and instruction on where and how to place it. That's it.
There is meeting with all parties to review this issue coming up.


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## shortcircuit2 (Jan 4, 2015)

I reviewed the instructions online. The ATS is equipped with a manual lever that allows opening the switch to the NEUTRAL position like you said...and the key control you have described would be a power-operable type of control to open the switch.

Both would meet the requirements of 230.76...

Although the NEUTRAL indicating label on the ATS doesn't seem to meet the description of indicating as outlined in 230.77...which requires open (off) or closed (on).

The operation of the disconnect doesn't seem to be overly difficult to understand and a demonstration to the Fire Department and AHJ should be enough to assure them of its safe operation...along with the fact that it is LISTED for the purpose. 

Is this a completely new installation of addition to existing service? What voltage?

NSTAR is changing its name to EVERSOURCE ENERGY


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## STLelectrician (Jan 2, 2015)

I am a Generac certified liquid cooled technician and those larger ATS's can be difficult if you do not know what you are looking at....we are required in my state commercial service rated 400A and over you must install a visible blade style disconnect after ATS and before service it feeds....This is a standard set by or utility company...so in case of fire or natural disaster they can visibly see the handle position without having to approach the service, and provides quick disconnecting means


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## STLelectrician (Jan 2, 2015)

The other problem is they have to open the cabinet to disconnect even tho it is service rated and a means of disconnect


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## farmantenna (Nov 22, 2012)

the final decision by the inspector is to install a remote switch outside the electric room in the front foyer next fire alarm panel.

I'm not too impressed with this switch and agree with the inspector. You don't know if the power is off . You have to move the lever 4 times and the only way I know it's off is I've seen the inside and the position of the circuit breakers.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

farmantenna said:


> the final decision by the inspector is to install a remote switch outside the electric room in the front foyer next fire alarm panel.
> 
> I'm not too impressed with this switch and agree with the inspector. You don't know if the power is off . You have to move the lever 4 times and the only way I know it's off is I've seen the inside and the position of the circuit breakers.


Wow. I'd be tempted to force generac into some sort of reimbursement


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