# 2020 Residential Services-- Surge Protection



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Who sets the standard for what "surge protection" is? 

Does the standard Eaton Ultra Mike Holmes edition count? 

Could you use some cheap $10 crap device like what power strips have in them?


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

I believe the Eaton surge suppressor is a type 2 so it would be okay.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Oh, I missed that part about type 1 & 2. Thanks.


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

I'd be curious to know who introduced the proposal to require that. 

Was it the SPD industry?
The insurance industry? 
Or POCO industry? 

Anyone wanna guess? 

Anyone want to take the time to look it up?


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

And people here wonder why some of us have total disdain for the NEC when it's now abundantly clear that it's completely in the pocket of the manufacturers.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MikeFL said:


> I'd be curious to know who introduced the proposal to require that.
> 
> Was it the SPD industry?
> The insurance industry?
> ...


I don't want to get into another big argument over this with the resident brainwashees, but I think it is safe to say that a reasonable, intelligent, aware electrician would think that codes like this are implemented due to pressure from the manufacturers for their own gains.


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

The device in the $10 power strip is the same one used in industrial equipment and utilities install on every fifth pole. It’s a block of metal oxides, mostly zinc. It is sintered which means it is heated just enough so it sticks together. It comes in all shapes and sizes and it is very cheap. The only difference between say a Cooper Ultrasil UHS0306 and a WAlmart power strop is the one from Walmart has a fuse, it is thinner so it starts acting at 150 V instead of 3000 V, and it is about the diameter of a nickel instead of a silver dollar.

Guaranteed these things will be down to $10 by 2021. As to value...haha. Google arrester works and read about lead length. It protects the panel, not the TV. Whole house surge protectors are a scam.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

paulengr said:


> The device in the $10 power strip is the same one used in industrial equipment and utilities install on every fifth pole. It’s a block of metal oxides, mostly zinc. It is sintered which means it is heated just enough so it sticks together. It comes in all shapes and sizes and it is very cheap. The only difference between say a Cooper Ultrasil UHS0306 and a WAlmart power strop is the one from Walmart has a fuse, it is thinner so it starts acting at 150 V instead of 3000 V, and it is about the diameter of a nickel instead of a silver dollar.
> 
> Guaranteed these things will be down to $10 by 2021. As to value...haha. Google arrester works and read about lead length. It protects the panel, not the TV. Whole house surge protectors are a scam.
> 
> ...


Even if they come down to $10, you still need a 2P breaker and 2 spaces to utilize one.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

joe-nwt said:


> Even if they come down to $10, you still need a 2P breaker and 2 spaces to utilize one.


Square D makes surge protectors that install like a breaker, no leads. I like the idea but having seen the failure mode, I'd rather have the SPD outside of the panel in a sturdy metal box.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

I'm going to place most of the blame for this idiotic requirement on AFCIs. 

My reasoning is that as far as I know, the breaker manufacturers were the first ones to purchase a code requirement as an investment and expect (and receive) a tidy return on it. 

Next, it was the torque tool manufacturers, now it is the surge suppressor manufacturers. 

Who will it be next?


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

paulengr said:


> Guaranteed these things will be down to $10 by 2021. As to value...haha. Google arrester works and read about lead length. It protects the panel, not the TV. Whole house surge protectors are a scam.


Nonsense. Forced use of a product _never_ results in a price reduction. A cartel of manufacturers make AFCIs and the prices between them are virtually the same, almost to the penny.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

micromind said:


> I'm going to place most of the blame for this idiotic requirement on AFCIs.
> 
> My reasoning is that as far as I know, the breaker manufacturers were the first ones to purchase a code requirement as an investment and expect (and receive) a tidy return on it.
> 
> ...



The same big companies that make AFCI's make surge suppressors. How convenient.


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## Incognito (Apr 14, 2019)

I bet Mike Holmes is in on it too!


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Incognito said:


> I bet Mike Holmes is in on it too!


Hyperbole doesn’t serve anyone.

While we know that Mike Holmes is not in on it, he certainly will be making a lot more money due to this code change.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

I hope this will cause more people to jump ship from the NEC-brainwashed bandwagon.


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

And it will have to be explained to customers basically all bets are off for a direct or close to direct strike IMO.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

These units are not $10.... They are $60-120 depending. Siemens make a dp 20 amp breaker that is both a circuit breaker and a whole house surge suppressor. GE used to make them so I assume other have it

Here is the siemens unit
https://www.amazon.com/Siemens-QSA2020SPD-Protection-Circuit-Breakers/dp/B0052MG5K0


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

The square D units take a couple of spaces just like a breaker. Works for me. The 2020 doesn't come into effect until at least 2021, though I need to deal with it in mass and maine most likely. Oh well, I'll hit the code update early on.


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## Incognito (Apr 14, 2019)

HackWork said:


> Incognito said:
> 
> 
> > I bet Mike Holmes is in on it too!
> ...


Sure it does. It lightens the crusty mood, it’s humour. 

I do agree with you and others though on this new code being brought in only to help people make money. There is no safety value at all.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Incognito said:


> Sure it does. It lightens the crusty mood, it’s humour.
> 
> I do agree with you and others though on this new code being brought in only to help people make money. There is no safety value at all.


What is this humour you speak of? Is that a bone in your leg?


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## B-Nabs (Jun 4, 2014)

HackWork said:


> What is this humour you speak of? Is that a bone in your leg?


If you want to be an honourary Canadian, you have to learn to spell like one. 

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

Bird dog said:


> And it will have to be explained to customers basically all bets are off for a direct or close to direct strike IMO.


Well, I've worked in a water plant (you know, where everybody grounds to our pipes !)
And for Traffic Ops, you know ... Those lights that hang from the lightning rods :biggrin:

Surge protection helps for a surge
Lightning protection is a completely different ball game.

I have no doubt that the mfr's brought in Lightning damage data to help get this change approved.

In case they are listening ... You now need to make a receptacle with surge protection, get it in code, and charge large :vs_laugh:


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

splatz said:


> Square D makes surge protectors that install like a breaker, no leads. I like the idea but having seen the failure mode, I'd rather have the SPD outside of the panel in a sturdy metal box.


Huh. Didn't know that, I haven't installed a SP for a few years. Thanks for the tip.


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

I've seen what happens when a MOV opens and it's not an event you want happening inside a panel.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MikeFL said:


> I've seen what happens when a MOV opens and it's not an event you want happening inside a panel.


In that case, it's also not an event you want happening inside of a dwelling.

Outside surge protection to go along with the disconnect? 2023, here we come!


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

HackWork said:


> In that case, it's also not an event you want happening inside of a dwelling.
> 
> 
> 
> Outside surge protection to go along with the disconnect? 2023, here we come!



The issue with a MOV is that it is actually a consumable, even the utility ones. By the way a Cooper pole mounted one runs around $50-100. I just checked Platt earlier today.

The oxides slowly turn into metals. Eventually when it gets used up it can either turn into a dead short or an open depending on where the metal droplets go. The $10 Walmart ones had a tendency to catch carpets on fire and burned down houses. So UL changes the requirements to make a series fuse a requirement.

I work for a motor shop. A bolted fault is kind of a scary thing if you’ve never seen one. The wiring and conduit rattle and the transformer “screams” (hums loudly) before there is a loud pop as the breaker/fuse goes off. The scariest ones are the pole mounted pigtail style (Kearney) fuses that sound like a giant shotgun going off.

Getting a boric acid shower or sprayed with zinc slag isn’t pleasant either but not the end of the world. Once in a while the electrical business is like being a welder. That’s why OSHA makes FR mandatory for utilities. Nothing wrong with residential electricians having heat stroke in summer with the rest of us!



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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

MikeFL said:


> I've seen what happens when a MOV opens and it's not an event you want happening inside a panel.


Yes the panel is one of the most valuable things in the house, you don't want that taking the hit, I'd rather lose the microwave and the TV rather than the panel. 

I want it in a metal box outside the panel. 

I'd rather have it on the feed through lugs than on a breaker.


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## CTshockhazard (Aug 28, 2009)

*THANK YOU NFPA for having the testicular fortitude to see this through!*

Finally we'll see some relief from all of the senseless deaths and injuries that have plagued this great nation since the electric system was brought into the home.




Imma start searching the electrical acronyms now for the 'next big thing'.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

This is all Dennis's fault first he introduced the AFCI's and now this. I think he is getting paid off by the manufactures. Damn you Dennis


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

Is anyone willing to look up the amendment and see who first introduced it?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MikeFL said:


> Is anyone willing to look up the amendment and see who first introduced it?


That probably won't lead anywhere. They are smart, they know to have some unsuspecting person introduce it. And all it took was a fat envelope under the table and a promise of some future easy job with a salary and healthcare. Just like they do it in the government.


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## farmantenna (Nov 22, 2012)

what a screwed up system. How is the cost of this justified? How many houses burned down that would have been saved by SPD? bullst


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

farmantenna said:


> what a screwed up system. How is the cost of this justified? How many houses burned down that would have been saved by SPD? bullst


I think it's the insurance companies behind it. But there's an ingrained culture here that the manuf's are behind all the code changes. That's why I wanted someone to look it up.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MikeFL said:


> I think it's the insurance companies behind it. But *there's an ingrained culture here that the manuf's are behind all the code changes*. That's why I wanted someone to look it up.


I don't thin that is true. Not all code changes, just a large portion of them. The code changes that require us to use more expensive products, ones that haven't even been proven to increase safety. 

And it's not just manufacturers, it's corporations who stand to make a profit by the code change, so the insurance companies would fit right into that. 



farmantenna said:


> what a screwed up system. How is the cost of this justified? How many houses burned down that would have been saved by SPD? bullst


 The system will remain screwed up as long as it has so many people blindly defending it.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Somebody has to speak up for those that can't speak for themselves. 

This is all human-centric prejudice, racism against appliances. Surges are electrical aggression. It's high time the rights of microwaves and refrigerators to safety and security is recognized, codified, and MONETIZED$$$. 

I also think there should be free appliance service and repair for all appliances, not just UL listed ones. 

If you feel differently, keep in mind it's only a matter of time before they put Android or iOS in every microwave and refrigerator, and it won't be long after that that they'll have the upper hand. You better be nice to them while you can.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

splatz said:


> Somebody has to speak up for those that can't speak for themselves.
> 
> This is all human-centric prejudice, racism against appliances. Surges are electrical aggression. It's high time the rights of microwaves and refrigerators to safety and security is recognized, codified, and MONETIZED$$$.
> 
> ...


Watch yourself or MTW will call for your execution.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

HackWork said:


> Watch yourself or MTW will call for your execution.


That's a good point. I will email his microwave and have it zap him in the shorts. Just as a warning.


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

I may have told this here before so if you've heard it, ... and if not...

When I was in my first year as an inspector me & the building official went to a seminar in the next county north. One of the speakers was a UL engineer and the other was a PE from the code council (SBCCI back then, now a part of ICC). 

The UL guy explained they care about 2 things. Is it going to shock you and is it going to catch fire? He explained their fiduciary duty is to insurance companies and that's where the "underwriters" comes from in their name.

The code council PE said he's like to clarify where the codes come from. He said the perception is that the code council writes the rules, and that's just not so. Anyone can propose a code requirement or amendment, and then the members vote it in or reject it. Anyone can be a member. Every member gets a vote. So if you'd like to see something added, changed or removed, become a member and become a part of the process.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MikeFL said:


> The code council PE said he's like to clarify where the codes come from. He said the perception is that the code council writes the rules, and that's just not so. Anyone can propose a code requirement or amendment, and then the members vote it in or reject it. Anyone can be a member. Every member gets a vote. So if you'd like to see something added, changed or removed, become a member and become a part of the process.


Yes, the proposals can be sent in by anyone. But that is meaningless since the Come Making Panel (CMP) has full power over which proposals get accepted. 

Saying that anyone can be on a CMP is like saying that anyone can be the President, or go to space, or win the lottery. It may be true, but not realistic. It's not different than telling someone, "_If you don't like what Congress is doing, then you should go be a congressman and fix it_".


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

HackWork said:


> Yes, the proposals can be sent in by anyone. But that is meaningless since the Come Making Panel (CMP) has full power over which proposals get accepted.
> 
> Saying that anyone can be on a CMP is like saying that anyone can be the President, or go to space, or win the lottery. It may be true, but not realistic. It's not different than telling someone, "_If you don't like what Congress is doing, then you should go be a congressman and fix it_".


OK that's a different arrangement. Are you saying NFPA members don't get to vote on NEC code changes? And that some panel has all of the authority?


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## Incognito (Apr 14, 2019)

If this new code was brought in by the insurance companies, which is probably a good assumption, maybe they will also be offering discounts to customers who have them on their panels?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MikeFL said:


> OK that's a different arrangement. Are you saying NFPA members don't get to vote on NEC code changes? And that some panel has all of the authority?


I'm not sure what an NFPA member is. You mean like me and you signing up on their website? 

There are a bunch of CMPs which handle different parts of the code book. Being on those CMPs is extremely hard, like I equated to being in Congress. 

There are requirements to keep special interests limited and equal. But you know how corruption works. I remember controversy a few years ago because they reorganized the CMPs in order to get rid of some of the panel members who were speaking up about the manufacturers having too many seats on the panels.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Incognito said:


> If this new code was brought in by the insurance companies, which is probably a good assumption, maybe they will also be offering discounts to customers who have them on their panels?


 Insurance companies are well known for giving away free profit :vs_laugh::vs_laugh::vs_laugh:


The discount would be something that they offered NOW, as an incentive to get people to install one. If it's required by code, they have no reason to offer incentives.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Incognito said:


> If this new code was brought in by the insurance companies, which is probably a good assumption, maybe they will also be offering discounts to customers who have them on their panels?


Interesting question! 

Insurance regulation has degraded to the point that it's a crying shame. (A disaster really, see our health care.) But they are supposed to base their pricing on loss experience; they are not supposed to offer a discount unless they can support that difference in pricing with a concomitant difference in losses. 

In reality, I think they'd love to offer such a discount, even exaggerate such a discount, and will play fast and loose with the rules if they can get away with it. I say this because because it will help them identify people who 

1. have a few hundred bucks discretionary income to spend, and 
2. spend discretionary funds on a safety device 

*That's a VERY desirable tidbit for an insurance company.* And as mentioned, regulation being what it is, they can get away with it. 
@Incognito you may have missed your calling


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## Incognito (Apr 14, 2019)

HackWork said:


> Insurance companies are well known for giving away free profit :vs_laugh::vs_laugh::vs_laugh:
> 
> 
> The discount would be something that they offered NOW, as an incentive to get people to install one. If it's required by code, they have no reason to offer incentives.


True.

I was being sarcastic about the discounts. And even if they did offer one, I’m sure there would be some work around rule where they would still only cover a small percentage of any damaged electronics.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

splatz said:


> Interesting question!
> 
> Insurance regulation has degraded to the point that it's a crying shame. (A disaster really, see our health care.) But they are supposed to base their pricing on loss experience; they are not supposed to offer a discount unless they can support that difference in pricing with a concomitant difference in losses.
> 
> ...


Dammit, splatz must have downloaded one of macmikeman’s calculator apps allowing him to hack his account.:sad:


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

Or they'll do what they do with the old services. We're not insuring it unless or until you make it meet a newer code.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MikeFL said:


> Or they'll do what they do with the old services. We're not insuring it unless or until you make it meet a newer code.


That happens now with FPE panels. I make a lot of money from people who have to upgrade their Federal Pacific panel because their insurance company says so. 

But that is a requirement of the insurance company, not the electrical code. I certainly wouldn’t mind getting a lot more calls for surge protector installation. But I still think it’s wrong to put it in the code.


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

MikeFL said:


> I've seen what happens when a MOV opens and it's not an event you want happening inside a panel.


We have TVSSs and I have replaced dead SASDs and MOVs and never saw anything dramatic. No explosions and fire, just a smoked component on a circuit board. 
They do wear out, each time they are stressed with a surge they grow a little tired, just like any man made object.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

If you search you'll find zillions of pictures like this one: 










There are similar pictures for surge strips. I found a surge strip that had cooked off pretty bad after a lightning storm, a bit scary. There are manufacturers selling surge strips with the MOVs in metal housings now. I am switching back to the old Tripp Lite Isobars, which are excellent and have a metal case. 



drsparky said:


> We have TVSSs and I have replaced dead SASDs and MOVs and never saw anything dramatic. No explosions and fire, just a smoked component on a circuit board.
> They do wear out, each time they are stressed with a surge they grow a little tired, just like any man made object.


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

splatz said:


> If you search you'll find zillions of pictures like this one:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Was that the MOV or just a loose connection or other part?








This is a blown MOV.








This is a not a blown MOV.

Both are electrical in nature but there are slight variances, a gifted electrician can tell the difference.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Hell of a coincidence that that loose connection inside the surge protector waited until a lighting storm to blow up, isn't it? 



drsparky said:


> Was that the MOV or just a loose connection or other part?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

splatz said:


> Hell of a coincidence that that loose connection inside the surge protector waited until a lighting storm to blow up, isn't it?


Surge protector? Isn't that a normal AC disco?

You can even see the little ducky on it.


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

HackWork said:


> Surge protector? Isn't that a normal AC disco?
> 
> You can even see the little ducky on it.
> 
> ...


But I guess it is the Metal Oxide Varistors fault that the disconnect burned up, even though that the don't put MOVs in disconnects.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

My limited understand is that nothing is safe when it comes to lightning. Not the panel, surge protector, disconnect, outlet behind your bed, nothing.

Even a damn tree, I had to spend over $5,000 dealing with that big bastard after it got hit and killed :sad:


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

That image came from a post I saw on here years ago, they guy said with all that the condenser was OK. 

https://www.electriciantalk.com/f2/whole-house-surge-protection-158354/#post2803434

I think the surge protector was blown away, it was installed sidecar style


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

HackWork said:


> My limited understand is that nothing is safe when it comes to lightning. Not the panel, surge protector, disconnect, outlet behind your bed, nothing.
> 
> Even a damn tree, I had to spend over $5,000 dealing with that big bastard after it got hit and killed :sad:


Getting struck by lightning, a direct hit - obviously there's nothing you can put in a 4x4 box that will take that force of nature and make it disappear. Lightning protection systems, the lightning rods, big braided wires, etc., help with that. 

Far, far more surge damage is from a surge in the ground potential when the lightning hits that tree or tower or whatever, and the wiring of the house becomes a part of the gradient dissipating that energy. 

And there's also utility surges, surges when a primary comes in contact with a secondary etc.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Am I wrong in saying that it looks like this code change is going to replace damaged appliances with small explosive charges placed in the house?


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

Incognito said:


> If this new code was brought in by the insurance companies, which is probably a good assumption, *maybe they will also be offering discounts* to customers who have them on their panels?



Bwa-ha-ha-ha! That's funny.


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

Although lightning is a surge, not every surge is lightning.

A MOV that clamps an 800V surge is not going to have the same reaction as a MOV that attempts to clamp a nearby lightning hit.


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## Jerome208 (May 10, 2013)

Where would this 800V surge come from and what would terminate it (make it stop)? 



I ask in terms of duration and what sort of protection scheme would coordinate with the surge supressor.



I am no expert on transmission and distribution but I don't see how poco equipment can supply much more than a few percent extra voltage.


Short of a catastrophic failure in which case things get real interesting, more like lightning.


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

Jerome208 said:


> Where would this 800V surge come from and what would terminate it (make it stop)?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


wind


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

splatz said:


> If you search you'll find zillions of pictures like this one:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yep, sometimes they catch on fire. !

Scary huh :surprise:


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## Mobius87 (May 20, 2019)

I was standing next to a crappy 'surge protector' power strip that lit up like that once. Thing had a mini fridge plugged into it. One minute it was fine, the next there was a little camp fire next to me. In a fertilizer plant.... and no fire extinguisher in sight. 

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Jerome208 said:


> Where would this 800V surge come from and what would terminate it (make it stop)?




I struggle myself to visualize this because it's a lot harder to think about than current in wires in circuits. 



In a lightning strike, there's a surge in ground potential at the point of the strike that's immense. It dissipates in a gradient around that point in the ground. Of course the ground itself has resistance, there is voltage drop across the resistance, the voltage at any point in the gradient is lower than the voltage at the strike point, the further you get, the lower the voltage. 



A similar thing happens if a primary distribution line is lying on the ground say across the street from your house, this will raise the ground potential at the rod in your house, but not as much as it would if the primary line was bolted to your ground rod.


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

splatz said:


> I struggle myself to visualize this because it's a lot harder to think about than current in wires in circuits.


Maybe think about it as an electrical earthquake. The lightning strike point is the epicenter & gradients of damage. Or a dam breaking & the gradients of damage.


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## bullheimer (Feb 1, 2013)

HackWork said:


> That happens now with FPE panels. I make a lot of money from people who have to upgrade their Federal Pacific panel because their insurance company says so.
> 
> But that is a requirement of the insurance company, not the electrical code. I certainly wouldn’t mind getting a lot more calls for surge protector installation. But I still think it’s wrong to put it in the code.


Federal Panels were never UL listed so i dont see an ins. co paying up if that was in the house no matter what


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

That's quite the claim !


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

bullheimer said:


> Federal Panels were never UL listed so i dont see an ins. co paying up if that was in the house no matter what


Sure about that?


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## bullheimer (Feb 1, 2013)

YES. heard it at a CEU class. those guys know everything. besides they have the market cornered on Fire Damage if you googlize Federal panels you will see links to all kinds of fire damage. if you only try to sell a surge protector to an owner of a Federal Panel, plan on a different line of work when you go bankrupt in the near future. Charge at least 2K for a panel only upgrade... got to pay for the surge protector somehow (and bonding all the copper/gas. and breakers (good luck finding them now))


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

bullheimer said:


> Federal Panels were never UL listed so i dont see an ins. co paying up if that was in the house no matter what



I don't believe that is correct. Federal Pacific falsified their testing and therefore lost their listing but I do believe they were listed. In fact the breakers from the 80's were the big issue and it wasn't even all of them.









Commission Closes Investigation Of FPE Circuit Breakers And Provides Safety Information For Consumers


Commission Closes Investigation Of FPE Circuit Breakers And Provides Safety Information For Consumers




www.cpsc.gov


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

bullheimer said:


> YES. heard it at a CEU class. *those guys know everything*.


Apparently NOT ! 😂


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

Credits to JRaef ... post #5 






Federal Pacific and UL listing.


I am in the Oklahoma City area. I have a customer who is a real estate agent. When he has a home inspector (not an actual authority having jurisdiction "electrical inspector") inspect a home for the sale, every time there is a federal pacific panel in the house they will put down on their list...



forums.mikeholt.com


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## bullheimer (Feb 1, 2013)

EVERY TIME so it really doesnt matter why, they are a known, well-known fire hazard. I didn't even know they made them in the 80's. all the houses i've yanked them out of were built in the 50s or 60 i think. they look as old as i am.


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

bullheimer said:


> EVERY TIME so it really doesnt matter why, they are a known, well-known fire hazard. I didn't even know they made them in the 80's. all the houses i've yanked them out of were built in the 50s or 60 i think. they look as old as i am.


That is why UL changed the specs for power strips.

A MOV can fail open or shorted. In a utility if it fails shorted it just blows its guts out and clears itself. In a power strip it ignites the carpet and burns the house down.

So now they MUST have a breaker or fuse built in and an indicator to tell you when it’s dead. Surge protectors have a life span...they are consumables.


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## Sberry (Jan 11, 2021)

If we were hooking it to feed thru lugs how big would the leads be?


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## Quickservice (Apr 23, 2020)

paulengr said:


> That is why UL changed the specs for power strips.
> 
> A MOV can fail open or shorted. In a utility if it fails shorted it just blows its guts out and clears itself. In a power strip it ignites the carpet and burns the house down.
> 
> So now they MUST have a breaker or fuse built in and an indicator to tell you when it’s dead. Surge protectors have a life span...they are consumables.


Still tons of Chicom plug strip crap out there that claims to be UL 1449, and you open them up and find only a glass fuse.... Harbor Freight is a good source for these... super low price!


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## Brosania (25 d ago)

Dennis Alwon said:


> The 2020 NEC now requires surge Protection for all dwelling units services


Morning Dennis,
I understand the AHJ would have the final say, but would the replacement language apply to a Panel change out, if the Panel is part of the service equipment? adding surge protection considering its a dwelling. 

Thanks,

Brian


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Pick up your phone and call the local inspector. These type of things vary with the counties across the country.


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