# Romex Code Issues



## Chrisibew440 (Sep 13, 2013)

Sounds like quite an issue. Damn. I've never heard of this one before. It's a studded wall right? Getting emt in that should be a riot. I'm curious. You should ask the inspector what the purpose is.


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## bkmichael65 (Mar 25, 2013)

I've never known any code changes that were made to be retroactive


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## GatewaySparky (Jul 23, 2010)

Sure, you can get emt into a wood stud wall. Just notch the crap out of it reducing it to 1/2 it's strength. Then make the framing inspector mad.


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## jbfan (Jan 22, 2007)

I wonder who would be paying for this?


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## Chrisibew440 (Sep 13, 2013)

GatewaySparky said:


> Sure, you can get emt into a wood stud wall. Just notch the crap out of it reducing it to 1/2 it's strength. Then make the framing inspector mad.


Gee. I seemed to have forgot that route. Silly me.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Never heard of it then again romex is still the norm for resi around here. IMO I think he is over reacting. I wouldn't loose sleep over grandfathering a known safe wiring method.


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

GatewaySparky said:


> Sure, you can get emt into a wood stud wall. Just notch the crap out of it reducing it to 1/2 it's strength. Then make the framing inspector mad.



that or put a coupling every 30" They won't let you run flex?


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

AESolutionsINC said:


> So I was hired to add TWO (2) receptacles in a kitchen remodel. The residence is in Bolingbrook (Chicagoland area) and was built in the 70's. Romex wiring was allowed during this time.


Are you sure it was allowed at that time?


> .... Furthermore, if patch work, like adding additional receptacles, is conducted, Romex can be used in the Romex system. ...


Their code deletes Article 334 and I don't see any provision to use NM for changing or adding to an existing NM system.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

GatewaySparky said:


> Sure, you can get emt into a wood stud wall. Just notch the crap out of it reducing it to 1/2 it's strength. Then make the framing inspector mad.


It is not that difficult to install EMT in wood studs without notching the stud and you don't need to use couplings every couple of feet to install the EMT. This type of work is done every day in the Chicago area. Chicago and most of the suburbs around Chicago do not permit NM cable. In fact over 1/2 of the population of the State of Illinois live in areas that do not permit NM.

I live in an area that does permit NM for dwelling units as long as there are 4 or less units in a building and the building is a maximum of two stories. One of my first jobs as an apprentice was working on a wood framed apartment complex and it was all EMT. Sure there are some tricks to running the EMT without notching the studs, but it is not hard work.


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## Wpgshocker (Jan 25, 2013)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> It is not that difficult to install EMT in wood studs without notching the stud and you don't need to use couplings every couple of feet to install the EMT. This type of work is done every day in the Chicago area. Chicago and most of the suburbs around Chicago do not permit NM cable. In fact over 1/2 of the population of the State of Illinois live in areas that do not permit NM.


How messed up is residential wiring down south? You have guys running Romex and plastic effing boxes to no Romex at all?
What is the reasoning behind not using Romex? Is this just an Illinois thing?


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## AESolutionsINC (Jun 25, 2011)

Don is correct, I rarely deal with Romex working in the Chicago suburbs. We run EMT in most residences. Maybe it's the Chicago union machine that made this standard and everyone hopped on the band wagon. My company has a general standard of running 600-800 feet of EMT a day for new construction. Anything less than that you're "slow." Obviously I would prefer to run Romex. EMT is great for old construction instances, though. Anyways, I am going to question the inspector. I think he was having a bad day. My goal was to have some firing power when I speak to him. Of course the city website has now downloadable code books specific to Bolingbrook. Thanks for all your replies!


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## GatewaySparky (Jul 23, 2010)

Wpgshocker said:


> How messed up is residential wiring down south? You have guys running Romex and plastic effing boxes to no Romex at all?
> What is the reasoning behind not using Romex? Is this just an Illinois thing?


I'll admit that I've never understood the need for EMT in a single family dwelling. Over 2 stories multifamily - sure. Thousands of houses are built with simple Romex installed with nary an incident. They'll stand for a hundred years or more. In the past with that awful rubber insulated/cloth NM or K&T type I could see the need for changing out conductors after a long time. But Romex is so much better now than ever. Protection? Half a day of nailing up stud plates can easily beat the cost of piping with the same protection.

But then again, read my first sentence.....:blink:

Is it for rodents?


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

GatewaySparky said:


> I'll admit that I've never understood the need for EMT in a single family dwelling.


EMT keeps people from using blue carlon handy boxes, wait, nevermind, I've seen that too


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## FrunkSlammer (Aug 31, 2013)

Probably was a steel mill in Chicago that produced the pipe and fittings for electrical.. the owner of the company was buddies with the politicians of the day and they all worked it out at some party while drunk on absinthe. It was pushed into law and has never come out as things never seem to come out.


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## GatewaySparky (Jul 23, 2010)

FrunkSlammer said:


> Probably was a steel mill in Chicago that produced the pipe and fittings for electrical.. the owner of the company was buddies with the politicians of the day and they all worked it out at some party while drunk on absinthe. It was pushed into law and has never come out as things never seem to come out.


I like this explanation.

But piping a house would cut down on the number of DIY types and handymen that don't know the trade.


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

Chicago is notorious for union owned politicians driving up labor costs. Just be glad they don't require GRC...yet.


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## dspiffy (Nov 25, 2013)

FrunkSlammer said:


> Probably was a steel mill in Chicago that produced the pipe and fittings for electrical.. the owner of the company was buddies with the politicians of the day and they all worked it out at some party while drunk on absinthe. It was pushed into law and has never come out as things never seem to come out.


Basically . . . I was told it was the corrupt Chicago politicians in conjunction with the steel industry.


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## GatewaySparky (Jul 23, 2010)

I've done a search on this EMT in houses thing and the electricians who do it keep mentioning the "tricks" to get it done efficiently. But none are specific examples. Will any of you experienced in this care to enlighten me with examples of these tricks? I've never done it in a house, but I'm curious.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

five.five-six said:


> Chicago is notorious for union owned politicians driving up labor costs. Just be glad they don't require GRC...yet.


That would be good, 3/4" Rigid or larger....:laughing:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

AESolutionsINC said:


> Don is correct, I rarely deal with Romex working in the Chicago suburbs. We run EMT in most residences. Maybe it's the Chicago union machine that made this standard and everyone hopped on the band wagon. * My company has a general standard of running 600-800 feet of EMT a day for new construction.* Anything less than that you're "slow." Obviously I would prefer to run Romex. EMT is great for old construction instances, though. Anyways, I am going to question the inspector. I think he was having a bad day. My goal was to have some firing power when I speak to him. Of course the city website has now downloadable code books specific to Bolingbrook. Thanks for all your replies!


What type of pills are you giving the guys to bang out that much pipe?:blink:


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## daveEM (Nov 18, 2012)

HARRY304E said:


> What type of pills are you giving the guys to bang out that much pipe?:blink:


Yep. My labor units are 1.26 per 100 feet. That's for burried (ie. don't give a sh!t on looks). Then of course the other parts, - notching, boxes, connectors, couplings, straps, etc.

I guess you can get good at it.

Resi for sure is a nightmare everywhere eh?


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

I was told that emt in ressi is done in Chicago because of the Great Chicago Fire in 1871?

Was also told the fire was because of rats and that's why they use emt. 

Myth?


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

IIRC. mrs. O'ieary knocked over a lamp when she was getting a little some- some from the stable boy


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

GatewaySparky said:


> I've done a search on this EMT in houses thing and the electricians who do it keep mentioning the "tricks" to get it done efficiently. But none are specific examples. Will any of you experienced in this care to enlighten me with examples of these tricks? I've never done it in a house, but I'm curious.


Difficult to put into words...you just have to see it done and then do it. One is to drill holes to the end of the wall or to a doorway when installing horizontal EMT, with 1/2" you can slide a full 10' stick in that way. 
For multiple units of the same design, you pipe the fist one and keep all of the measurements, and then bend up all of the conduit for the rest of the units at the same time, keeping in mind that you may have "right" and "left" units.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> It is not that difficult to install EMT in wood studs without notching the stud and you don't need to use couplings every couple of feet to install the EMT. This type of work is done every day in the Chicago area. Chicago and most of the suburbs around Chicago do not permit NM cable. In fact over 1/2 of the population of the State of Illinois live in areas that do not permit NM.
> 
> I live in an area that does permit NM for dwelling units as long as there are 4 or less units in a building and the building is a maximum of two stories. One of my first jobs as an apprentice was working on a wood framed apartment complex and it was all EMT. Sure there are some tricks to running the EMT without notching the studs, but it is not hard work.


I wish everywhere had this code.


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## jigs-n-fixtures (Jan 31, 2013)

sbrn33 said:


> I wish everywhere had this code.


Explain how this promotes safety. Sure it makes more work for electricians, but does it promote safety? That is the only justifiable reason for codes or professional licensing.

We have been using NM just about everywhere since WWII with no safety issues.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

sbrn33 said:


> I wish everywhere had this code.


That's one of the dumbest things I've ever read on this forum.


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## Wpgshocker (Jan 25, 2013)

jigs-n-fixtures said:


> Explain how this promotes safety. Sure it makes more work for electricians, but does it promote safety? That is the only justifiable reason for codes or professional licensing. We have been using NM just about everywhere since WWII with no safety issues.


Exactly, the purpose of conduit is to provide protection for the conductors.
Is Chicago having such a hard time with conductors getting damaged in people's walls?


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## jigs-n-fixtures (Jan 31, 2013)

Are they still allowing the emt to be used as a ground?

That is what caused the MGM Grand fire in Las Vegas.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

jigs-n-fixtures said:


> Are they still allowing the emt to be used as a ground?
> 
> That is what caused the MGM Grand fire in Las Vegas.


Not quite, it was a piece of flexible metal conduit (being used as the EGC) with a loose connector that caused the fire.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

I don't know crap about Chicago, but here's an excerpt (sp?) from their municipal code:



> 18-27-336.4 Uses permitted.
> Listed Type NM and NMC cable with listed fittings shall be permitted to be used only for limited extensions to knob-and-tube lighting or appliance branch-circuits in existing wood frame residential occupancies not exceeding three stories in height, but not where subject to mechanical injury as in new or remodeled building construction.
> Type NM and NMC cable shall be permitted only in dry locations where concealed, in walls and floors of these occupancies.


heres a link: http://www.amlegal.com/nxt/gateway.dll/Illinois/chicagobuilding/buildingcodeandrelatedexcerptsofthemunic?f=templates$fn=default.htm$3.0$vid=amlegal:chicagobuilding_il


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## 123electric (Jun 3, 2012)

I wonder if he's having issue because emt is the only method allowed for residential (Chicago fires) if I'm not mistaken it is a local code (AHJ)


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## ablyss (Feb 8, 2014)

The trick is the cut a narrow section of the wall, drill the header and slide the EMT up. Ideally it goes up enough to so it doesn't need a coupling but roof height will determine that. And to make the drywall guys happy, cut stud to stud and screw it back when your done.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

jigs-n-fixtures said:


> Explain how this promotes safety. Sure it makes more work for electricians, but does it promote safety? That is the only justifiable reason for codes or professional licensing.
> 
> We have been using NM just about everywhere since WWII with no safety issues.


I won't say that NM is not safe, but I will say that EMT is safer. 

Also no one likes to hear this, but the number of fires in Chicago that are said to be of electrical origin are only 25% of the national average on a per building basis. I am sure that there are a number of reasons for this, including better electrical inspection and better fire investigation, but I also believe the requirement to use EMT is part of the reason for Chicago having less fires of electrical origin than the national average.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> I won't say that NM is not safe, but I will say that EMT is safer.
> 
> Also no one likes to hear this, but the number of fires in Chicago that are said to be of electrical origin are only 25% of the national average on a per building basis. I am sure that there are a number of reasons for this, including better electrical inspection and better fire investigation, but I also believe the requirement to use EMT is part of the reason for Chicago having less fires of electrical origin than the national average.


generally I have respect for all of your posts, but on this one I have to disagree.

I believe the only reason that they have less fires is that they got rid of the damn lantern kicking cows.


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## 2dogs (Feb 7, 2014)

We have that code around here in certain towns. It's not that bad to run emt in wood studs. I cut the emt into 4 foot sections and feed it through the studs. You have to tweak the pipe to get it in there but not much. The reason they do it is so if you want to pull new or different circuits into the recept boxes you can. Also it offers better fire containment If a fire starts in the pipe, helps with derating as circuits pass from floor to floor, protection from rodents, ect


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> I won't say that NM is not safe, but I will say that EMT is safer.
> 
> Also no one likes to hear this, but the number of fires in Chicago that are said to be of electrical origin are only 25% of the national average on a per building basis. I am sure that there are a number of reasons for this, including better electrical inspection and better fire investigation, but I also believe the requirement to use EMT is part of the reason for Chicago having less fires of electrical origin than the national average.


You've said yourself that you don't believe the fire statistics with regard to premises wiring causing fire origin. :blink:


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## Next72969 (Dec 9, 2012)

MTW said:


> Not quite, it was a piece of flexible metal conduit (being used as the EGC) with a loose connector that caused the fire.


. :nerd:


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

2dogs said:


> We have that code around here in certain towns. It's not that bad to run emt in wood studs. I cut the emt into 4 foot sections and feed it through the studs. You have to tweak the pipe to get it in there but not much. The reason they do it is so if you want to pull new or different circuits into the recept boxes you can. Also it offers better fire containment If a fire starts in the pipe, helps with derating as circuits pass from floor to floor, protection from rodents, ect


I can agree, a conduit system with looped/pigtailed wiring is virtually bulletproof to fixed wiring fires. I've done some emt in wood framing jobs and it ain't that hard as it looks.


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