# Need union memebers thoughts on this



## BDB (Jul 9, 2008)

What do you union members think could or should be done to help this situation. The town I am in lost it's hall a few years back. There is only one union contractor here now. Last year this contractor had a $1,300,000 job it was awarded. When the job got far enough along, this contractor put in a call for 6 men, they only got 2, kept putting in calls and could get NO one to answer the call, when the job was well along the contractor had to up the wages plus pay per diem plus make the job 6-10's to get men here. Lets just say it cost this contractor some big bucks and now makes it where they are affraid to bid work, seeing how they do not know if they can get the men. 
So the hall always makes the contractor toe the line as far as the local contract is concerned, but they do not hold up their end of the contract to furnish the men for work.
Hopefully I have written this where you can understand my question, so what are your thoughts on this?


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## nap (Dec 26, 2007)

in our contract, if the hall cannot provide men, the contractor actually can hire off the street. They have to be paid union scale of course.

it sounds like this guy needs to set down with the union leaders and ask them how they intend on correcting the problem. That is one of the few true reasons a contractor remains union but if they do not have access to a ready workforce, that huge benefit is gone and non-union starts to look might tempting.

The hall should be working to remedy the situation as hard as the guy is trying to find work for the members.


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## BDB (Jul 9, 2008)

nap said:


> in our contract, if the hall cannot provide men, the contractor actually can hire off the street.


I agree, but doesnt this let the hall off the hook the easy way? Kind of like the hall saying the contractor has to abide by the rules, but if we can not then we have a easy out for us.


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## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

What do you think the contractor should do? You said the local hall closed, did they merge with another local? Was this job site so far out that even travelers did not want to take the call? Your profile says that your an EC what is the liability if you can not perform and complete the awared contract as scheduled? I'am not sure but is Texas a right to work state? Sorry for so many questions to yours but, if a contractor wants to remain a signatory contractor the local better get it together or plan on losing the contractor and their jobs.


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

This seems odd from my local stand point. We also have the option of having a contractor bring in guys off the street if the local can't provide men but, I have never heard of this being done. What was up with the job site that guys didn't want to go there? Did JWs not like this EC for some reason? There maybe more to the story than meets the eye.


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## BDB (Jul 9, 2008)

rlc3854 said:


> What do you think the contractor should do?


I wish I knew the answer to this.




rlc3854 said:


> You said the local hall closed, did they merge with another local? Was this job site so far out that even travelers did not want to take the call?


Yes,International merged the area with another Local, About 150 miles from each other.




rlc3854 said:


> Your profile says that your an EC what is the liability if you can not perform and complete the awared contract as scheduled?


On a job that size, the GC usually makes the electrical Bond his portion of the job, If you do not get the work done the GC puts you in default and your bonding company takes over, They Bonding Co. uses your assets as far as they will go then they have to foot the bill to get it finished, so in short the answer would be, you would probably have to file Bankruptcy and be out of business.




rlc3854 said:


> I'am not sure but is Texas a right to work state? Sorry for so many questions to yours but, if a contractor wants to remain a signatory contractor the local better get it together or plan on losing the contractor and their jobs.


Yes, Texas is a right to work State


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## BDB (Jul 9, 2008)

randomkiller said:


> This seems odd from my local stand point. We also have the option of having a contractor bring in guys off the street if the local can't provide men but, I have never heard of this being done.


That has become the hall's favorite saying around here.



randomkiller said:


> What was up with the job site that guys didn't want to go there? Did JWs not like this EC for some reason? There maybe more to the story than meets the eye.


As you probably know, I am the contractor in question, I myself was on the job site ALOT. And got to know and talk to a bunch of the men that finally came down. So all I can tell you is what I was told. The ones that I talked to said that they really liked working on this job. And liked working for the company. But the 150 miles from the hall is what keeps people from working here. Which I can see, but what is a contractor to do, 1. Go nonunion? Company has been Union for 50 years, myself for 28 years. 2 Close down the shop? 3. Just bid small 1-2 men project? (might as well close up)


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

When we are booming men are hired off the streets all the time, it is the locals job to make them permanent members.

If the IBEW is falling down on the job, this contractor needs to do what need to be done. It is you job and the locals to make them permanent members.


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## nap (Dec 26, 2007)

I haven't researched your scale but Texas is notorious for having low wages so I would suspect travelers don;t head that way often unless there is absolutely no work elsewhere. That could make it tough.



> RK posts: We also have the option of having a contractor bring in guys off the street if the local can't provide men but, I have never heard of this being done.


It has been a very long time since it has happened in my area. They are referred to as "white tickets" around here. In the past 20 years or so, there has been enough men to man any job that has come up so it has not been needed to be implemented.



Right to work state; From what I understand, the employee cannot be forced to join a union but that does not remove the contractual agreement the contractor has with the union to hire only union workers or workers referred from the hall. That is outside what the law controls.

So BDB, what did the hall say when you sat down with them and said you either need manpower or you will be forced to go non-union?



> > Originally Posted by *nap*
> > _in our contract, if the hall cannot provide men, the contractor actually can hire off the street. _
> 
> 
> ...


How does that let them off the hook? There are simply times where the manpower is not available so to prevent injury to a contractor, this rule allows the contractor to find the men needed to man the job. It is not a preferred method to use by either side but it does allow for the EC to do what it takes to engage enough manpower for a job. 

Bottom line: the hall cannot force a worker to accept an assignment. That is why some EC's have to pay premiums for crappy jobs. 

So, are you allowed to hire off the street if the hall cannot supply the manpower (and no, having to pay premiums to get the men is not considered being able to supply manpower)? If so, hire guys locally, get them into the union and simply keep them on your payroll, if you have enough work to keep them busy. You do seem to have an odd situation with the proxmity to the hall but you should not be penalized because of that.


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

I don't see the relationship of the distance from the job to the hall. I haven't been to my local in the last three years. In a place like Texas it seems it should be less important.


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## nap (Dec 26, 2007)

it seems like it would make union meetings tough to attend:thumbsup:

actually, what I often see is the further from the hall you are, the less the hall tends to be involved, if for no other reason, it is difficult to visit jobsites regularly and most communications are via telephone, which often tend to be less fruiful than a face to face meeting. While it can work, the phrase "out of site; out of mind" seems to be somewhat applicable.


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## BDB (Jul 9, 2008)

nap said:


> So BDB, what did the hall say when you sat down with them and said you either need manpower or you will be forced to go non-union?


Well the way the Union contract is done, it can be a 2-4 year time table to get out. Unless they decide not to fight you on it, but we have been told , with us being the only Union contractor here , they would fight it, BTW, there are approx. 35 electrical contractors in this town.





nap said:


> How does that let them off the hook?


Let me first state (just so everyone knows), I am NOT arguing or Union bashing, likeI said, I have been Union for 28 years. The big thing for a contractor to be Union, and the selling point for a contractor to customers is being able to get and man a job. Aa a contractor I feel the main thing "I" get out of being union is getting men when needed, other then that "I" as a contractor really doesnt get anything else from the Union. So if I can not get men then I do not see what the Union is doing for the contractor. So that is where I say "it lets them off the hook" as in , they are no longer doing the part that I get out of being Union. Maybe I explained that where someone can understand it.





nap said:


> So, are you allowed to hire off the street if the hall cannot supply the manpower


Contract wise, yes, But everyone in this town knows we are Union, and majority of men here are very anti union due to some pass situations, so they will not even fill out an application.



nap said:


> You do seem to have an odd situation with the proxmity to the hall but you should not be penalized because of that.


Yes, I have told the Hall we are the red headed step child of the local.


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## BDB (Jul 9, 2008)

nap said:


> actually, what I often see is the further from the hall you are, the less the hall tends to be involved, if for no other reason, it is difficult to visit jobsites regularly and most communications are via telephone, which often tend to be less fruiful than a face to face meeting. While it can work, the phrase "out of site; out of mind" seems to be somewhat applicable.


I agree 100%, that is why I am asking members here for ANY suggestions, because the Hall just gives the same answers over and over.


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## nap (Dec 26, 2007)

speak with an attorney. Your contract may be written that the failure of the hall to provide manpower may be seen as a breach of contract and allow you to terminate the contract.

they may fight it but if you are adversely affected by their fight, you may have an additional claim for damages incurred because of their failure to supply the manpower and intentionally delaying your ability to seek manpower elsewhere.

Obviously I do not have enough info to make any real determination and I am not an attorney anyway so my best suggestion to you is speak with an attorney to find out what you can legally do and the quickest way to a resolution with the union.

If you have rights to terminate your contract, I would first have the attorney write a letter stating such but before such a termination action is taken, allow the union to attempt to remedy the situation (presuming you would like to remain union if feasible.)

whoops. I missed one of your posts. I see you can hire off the street. This puts a big crimp in any action avaiable to you. The union can;t be blamed for the locals actions.

I suggest you start attempting to recruit electricians. Not knowig the union scale versus the local average, I find it hard to believe you can't get at least out of work electricians to work for you. At some point, most folks worry more about eating than union v. non-union.


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## BDB (Jul 9, 2008)

nap said:


> I find it hard to believe you can't get at least out of work electricians to work for you.


That is the other problem, there really isn't any non union out of work electricians here. This is just a situation that I have not been able to come up with a good answer on.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

> That is the other problem, there really isn't any non union out of work electricians here. This is just a situation that I have not been able to come up with a good answer on.


1. Keep us abreast of this as it progresses.
2. No out of work open shop guys, either your scale is too low to attract new men or the open shops are doing a good job with pay and bennies.

If there is full employment in the area the only way to attract new blood is money.


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## BDB (Jul 9, 2008)

brian john said:


> 2. No out of work open shop guys, either your scale is too low to attract new men or the open shops are doing a good job with pay and bennies.
> 
> If there is full employment in the area the only way to attract new blood is money.


The open shops here pay a little less then union scale, but with us being the only union they see that we do not get the majority of work and know they have a better chance at stable work where they are at.

As far as


brian john said:


> the only way to attract new blood is money.


, we can not pick the work up now very easy with the scale we have, so going higher just puts us even further apart on bids.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

In markets where union is marginal this has always been an issue. Union shop owners in these markets generally make less than their open shop counterparts. Just something a man has to learn to live with.


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## blackhat 321 (Aug 2, 2008)

*On Book 1*

What city is that and how can I move there?


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## daddymack (Jun 3, 2008)

Fuel prices will play a huge part in getting out of town manpower. All this money we provide with cope these politicians need to get a grip on this oil thing.

Don't get me started on gas prices.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

When the local hall closed and merged with another far out of town, I'm sure that local's members did NOT move along with the hall. The hall is gone but the local manpower is still there. 

The OP is putting a lot out there, which I appreciate, but I think there's something he's not telling us. I state this knowing that the International often closes halls and merges locals because the local charter is not doing an effective job of organizing. (If there weren't any financial impropiroties) 

There is only one reason, even in Texas, (or any other State, RTW or not) why a good contractor can't attract good help, union or not. And that is the compensation offered isn't enough.


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## BDB (Jul 9, 2008)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> The OP is putting a lot out there, which I appreciate, but I think there's something he's not telling us.


There is nothing that I am not telling you, I am being as honest as I can be, because I really need to find an answer to this and not telling everything would defeat getting the true answers that I need.


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## Centaur1 (Aug 12, 2009)

Hey BDB,

If you can't get the answer you want from the hall in your neighborhood, you can write or call the international or at least find the regional representative to you area. Explain the problem tho them and perhaps they can ruffle the locals feathers and help get you some manpower:jester:


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

I live about 250 miles from from the hall. We have a "northern division", about six of us attend the monthly meetings with a video link. It works fine and keeps us involved with the hall.


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