# Can I use a Murray in this Siemens panel?



## Solar Z (May 25, 2009)

Hello Everyone,

Great forum.
Breaker question.
I need to install a 2p20A breaker in a residential Siemens main panel. The panel's label is long gone as usual, but i know it is a 200 Amp rated panel and made by Siemens. House built in 1996, so meter/main is no older than that.

Here are two photos.

Basically I have 2 questions:
*1. Can I add a breaker?
2. Does it have to be Siemens?*

1. There is available bussing for a fullsize, 2-pole breaker in an upside-down position. However, the metal "hooks" that you hook the breaker into before plugging the other end of the breaker onto the busbars are gone or flattened. What can I do about that? Can I just get a tiedown kit (with a long screw that holds the breaker to the same metal tab)? Can i add these "hooks"? Never knew what they were called....

2. I know about Murray and Siemens being related/owned by the same company. But LEGALLY, according to the NEC, can I use a Murray if it fits?

I really could use a good answer!:thumbup:


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## jbfan (Jan 22, 2007)

You really need to call an electrician!


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

I really wish Seimens would just admit that it's the same damn breaker with different printing on it.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> I really wish Seimens would just admit that it's the same damn breaker with different printing on it.


Yeah, murray is MP where siemens is QP or something like that. So according to the listings, they are not interchangable. THough, I have used murray in siemens panels and have had no issues with inspectors. [im not saying its right, just stating a fact]

~Matt


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## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

what about the breaker being upside down? cant tell you where its at but im pretty sure its in there.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

mattsilkwood said:


> what about the breaker being upside down? Cant tell you where its at but im pretty sure its in there.


240.81.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Does the cover allow for an additional breaker?
I see the provision for the required (screw) hold down.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

mattsilkwood said:


> cant tell you where its at but im pretty sure its in there.


oh, Ive heard that before. 

~Matt


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

That's the other thing. When that panel was new an "upside down" breaker was likely legal. No long the case though.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> I really could use a good answer!:thumbup:


It's not the answer you are looking for but.....no.

That panel wasn't designed to accept more than the two breakers shown (possibly quad breakes but you'd have to see the bus or read the label if it's still intact.

The bus on top looks available but only because the bus components are used in other panels too. The hardware to hold the breaker in place was left out for a reason.

Also, the off position would be up. Can't do that anymore.

As far as Murray/Siemans, MP?QP, I don't think twice about it unless I think it wil be scrutinized. It's the same damn breaker.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> I really wish Seimens would just admit that it's the same damn breaker with different printing on it.


I don't care if they do or not. I just cross Siemens and Murray and be done with it. But I hear you...It's kinda ludicrous that they aren't crossed already.


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## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

240.81 (2005)


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

mattsilkwood said:


> 240.81 (2005)


post #6 

~Matt


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## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

no fair ken, i had to go to the truck. 

what a tool:laughing:


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## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

TOOL_5150 said:


> post #6
> 
> ~Matt


yea thats what i get for leaving the post window open while i went to the truck:thumbup:


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

480sparky said:


> 240.81.


I learned something new.:thumbsup:


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

Put a 100 A NEMA 3R panel next to it. Move the 70 A breaker to it and feed the new panel from the old 70 A spot.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

InPhase277 said:


> Put a 100 A NEMA 3R panel next to it. Move the 70 A breaker to it and feed the new panel from the old 70 A spot.


Id probably do the same thing. Id pull the 70 out, install a 100 to feed the new panel and put the 70 in the new panel, with the 2p20. Then there will be room for expansion later, and you are not overloading the main, since your max allowable draw will be 200A, 2 - 100A breakers Keeping the whole installation safe as well.

~Matt


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## waco (Dec 10, 2007)

I wouldn't, but I agree with others who have suggested using the panel to feed a sub-panel with far more room for branch circuit breakers. That "panel" looks more like a disconnect feeding a couple of subs.


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## acmax (Apr 20, 2009)

Don't know what or where branch is going.But sure doesn't look like your getting any more wire in that pipe.Add a panel next to this one.Safer


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## Solar Z (May 25, 2009)

*Thanks!*

Thanks guys! This is what i deal with day in and day out. I build photovoltaic systems and need to tie in to the grid thru the customer's existing equipment. Not always easy and that murray siemens issue has come up just often enough for me to keep forgetting the details.

I like the "adding a 100A sub.p." idea, fed by the 70 A breaker.

Speedy Petey - btw there is knockout breaker space in the inside cover for that upside down breaker, just no tabs or hooks to hook the breaker into . The bussing is fine however.
220-221 - But if you say upside down is a no go, then it is a no go.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

480sparky said:


> 240.81.


Just last week I saw a 200 amp panel installed horizontally because of waste pipes below panel. There was no way of panel being mounted any other way. Is there another section of NEC that allows this??

I asked this question because the job I looked at was a kitchen reno with a service change. The inspector passed the job even with the panel being in the *wrong* position. I'm just trying to figure out what the inspector saw from his car that day. It must of been raining really hard.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Black4Truck said:


> Just last week I saw a 200 amp panel installed horizontally because of waste pipes below panel. There was no way of panel being mounted any other way. Is there another section of NEC that allows this??


Only if you don't use half the panel.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Only if you don't use half the panel.


:laughing: that is why your a tool :thumbup:


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

I would throw some Siemens 15/100/100/15 and 20/70/70/20 tandem breakers in that disconnect, hell, still meets the six rule! And you could get four more circuits for your landscape lights (15,) convinience recpt. (15) and two 20's for an outdoor kitchen.


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## Solar Z (May 25, 2009)

*Ok got it*

Miller Elex - no 20/70 tandems exist I am told by both my suppliers. Max 50 amps on tandems. Too bad.

*I'm a-ok on this right now though. I'm doin a load side tap with a fused disconnect as we solar guys have to do often enough.*

480sparky - i'm a-lookin' up section 240.81 right now. thanks

Never knew about the upside down breaker prohibition. Good to know:blink:

I've got it all figured out now, though.

:thumbup:


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## Archania (Mar 16, 2009)

Yea the "up/on" "down/off" has been code for a while now. If it was inspected (and if the inspector knew what he was doing) It wouldn't pass. Kind of silly, but what are you gonna do.
Just get 2 100A tandems and use one to feed a sub. What is the 70A for anyway??


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## Solar Z (May 25, 2009)

The 70A? No idea, probably feeding a subpanel. I am tying in a 20 A circuit for a Photovoltaic system.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

Did you see the pics from that Target store solar fire in Bakersfield?

It was Brutal. 

Send me an email at [email protected] COX>NET and i will forward them to you.


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