# Neutral Used As A Conductor...



## fxrguy (Aug 6, 2012)

I have a friend who had a "home inspector" write him up for a 240V circuit that is using the neutral/white conductor as one of the phase conductors. He says it is marked with black phase tape. My question is if this is code compliant?


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## ohiosparky99 (Nov 12, 2009)

It's legal


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## union347sparky (Feb 29, 2012)

fxrguy said:


> I have a friend who had a "home inspector" write him up for a 240V circuit that is using the neutral/white conductor as one of the phase conductors. He says it is marked with black phase tape. My question is if this is code compliant?


Home inspectors know **** about anything. Nothing wrong with that at all.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

union347sparky said:


> Home inspectors know **** about anything. Nothing wrong with that at all.


X2....:thumbsup:


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## Incubus311 (Jan 10, 2014)

I usually strip the wire down to the copper, and color it black with a sharpie


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## JMV (Aug 10, 2013)

Absolutely fine to do that.


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

to prevent that problem, just color the wire with a magic marker or tape before an inspection


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## fxrguy (Aug 6, 2012)

What code reference might address this so he can "educate" the inspector?


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

cant remember, but i think it was still in the 08, or maybe 05? reidentify


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## Roger (Jul 7, 2007)

fxrguy said:


> What code reference might address this so he can "educate" the inspector?


Get in touch with the HI and read article 200 together.  


Roger


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

found it! 200.7c1


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## Roger (Jul 7, 2007)

papaotis said:


> found it! 200.7c1


:thumbsup:

And it goes back at least into the 70's when the code sections were identified with a dash, ie 200-7

Roger


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## TheWireNut (Apr 20, 2014)

Incubus311 said:


> I usually strip the wire down to the copper, and color it black with a sharpie


I though I was the only one who did that............has to be a real Sharpie though, none of this Chinese crap. 

TWN


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

fxrguy said:


> I have a friend who had a "home inspector" write him up for a 240V circuit that is using the neutral/white conductor as one of the phase conductors. He says it is marked with black phase tape. My question is if this is code compliant?


A white insulated wire is NOT a NEUTRAL until it is installed and marked accordingly if it is not used as a neutral conductor. Mark it as you want it to be.


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## Chrisibew440 (Sep 13, 2013)

Whoa whoa. What about nothing under the size of #8 can be re-identified. 

What size is the conductor?


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## Mshow1323 (Jun 9, 2012)

fxrguy said:


> I have a friend who had a "home inspector" write him up for a 240V circuit that is using the neutral/white conductor as one of the phase conductors. He says it is marked with black phase tape. My question is if this is code compliant?


I love home inspectors, they write up frivolous things constantly. There's nothing better then getting a phone call for retagging a wire or a double tapped breaker. They can make-up all the code they want, I'll just keep cashing checks.:thumbup:


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## Chrisibew440 (Sep 13, 2013)

Mshow1323 said:


> I love home inspectors, they write up frivolous things constantly. There's nothing better then getting a phone call for retagging a wire or a double tapped breaker. They can make-up all the code they want, I'll just keep cashing checks.:thumbup:


They don't always make stuff up. A lot of the times they're mis-informed. They're not getting anything by "making stuff up."


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Chrisibew440 said:


> Whoa whoa. What about nothing under the size of #8 can be re-identified.
> 
> What size is the conductor?


Are you suggesting that if, as a lot of resis do, use a white as a hot, that it is illegal to tag it as a hot if possible?


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## Mshow1323 (Jun 9, 2012)

Chrisibew440 said:


> They don't always make stuff up. A lot of the times they're mis-informed. They're not getting anything by "making stuff up."


Does that make a difference?


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## Mshow1323 (Jun 9, 2012)

Chrisibew440 said:


> Whoa whoa. What about nothing under the size of #8 can be re-identified.
> 
> What size is the conductor?


Within a cable assembly it is compliant. I can't imagine running an 8/2 to a 20 amp A/C just to meet your rule. Or a 14/3 with a "extra" white wire doing nothing.
:whistling2:


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## Chrisibew440 (Sep 13, 2013)

RIVETER said:


> Are you suggesting that if, as a lot of resis do, use a white as a hot, that it is illegal to tag it as a hot if possible?


You know, this is where I need to be on the code committee. I know it says in "cords & cables" your allowed to but any other your not under #8.


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## Chrisibew440 (Sep 13, 2013)

I gues the question should be. Is this a cord or a cable?


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Chrisibew440 said:


> You know, this is where I need to be on the code committee. I know it says in "cords & cables" your allowed to but any other your not under #8.


Gotta know what the reasoning is.


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## Chrisibew440 (Sep 13, 2013)

RIVETER said:


> Gotta know what the reasoning is.


That's a gooooood question.


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## btharmy (Jan 17, 2009)

Chrisibew440 said:


> That's a gooooood question.


The reason is, if it isn't cord or cable, it is a conduit or tubing and conductors are selected and pulled in accordingly. Why would you pull a black and white when you need two hots? Pull what you need. In cable, you don't have the option.


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

Chrisibew440 said:


> Whoa whoa. What about nothing under the size of #8 can be re-identified.
> 
> What size is the conductor?


That would be smaller than a #4, not #8 but that is for re-identifying another color conductor to white to use as a grounded/neutral conductor.

OP is talking about re-identifying an already white conductor as an ungrounded/hot conductor.


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## Chrisibew440 (Sep 13, 2013)

A Little Short said:


> That would be smaller than a #4, not #8 but that is for re-identifying another color conductor to white to use as a grounded/neutral conductor.
> 
> OP is talking about re-identifying an already white conductor as an ungrounded/hot conductor.


I'm trying to find the section on the #4 bit. Do you know off hand? I though it was all conductors?


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## Chrisibew440 (Sep 13, 2013)

btharmy said:


> The reason is, if it isn't cord or cable, it is a conduit or tubing and conductors are selected and pulled in accordingly. Why would you pull a black and white when you need two hots? Pull what you need. In cable, you don't have the option.


Well and now I think I've read that every box that's fed with a cable or cord needs a grounded conductor in it?


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

chrisibew440 said:


> i'm trying to find the section on the #4 bit. Do you know off hand? I though it was all conductors?


200.6


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## Chrisibew440 (Sep 13, 2013)

A Little Short said:


> 200.6


Yes yes, ok. Where does it say nothing under #4?


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

Chrisibew440 said:


> Yes yes, ok. Where does it say nothing under #4?


You have to do a little thinking when reading.
200.6(A) says: size 6 or smaller, so that means just what it says...6 or smaller

200.6(B) says sizes larger than 6, so to be larger than 6, you would start at #4.

People read this and think #6 and up, but that's not what it says. It's says larger than 6, hence the #4!


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## Spunk#7 (Nov 30, 2012)

I thought a reidentified white,only could not be used as a switch leg and all other application were fine,as a current conductor?


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## fxrguy (Aug 6, 2012)

Thanks for all the feedback. I'm guessing it all depends on if it is part of a cable assembly or not. I had just assumed it was since most homes are wired with romex, but it might not be. If it is an appliance and hard wired through greenfield or emt then it would not meet the requirements of 200.7(C)1


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Chrisibew440 said:


> Whoa whoa. What about nothing under the size of #8 can be re-identified.
> 
> What size is the conductor?


Chris did you read the article that was cited 200.7(C)


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## Fibes (Feb 18, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Chris did you read the article that was cited 200.7(C)


It doesn't appear as though he did.


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## The_Modifier (Oct 24, 2009)

papaotis said:


> to prevent that problem, just color the wire with a magic marker or tape before an inspection


Fast drying rattle can spray paint works awesome as well.


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## Robert Thompson 6971 (Sep 24, 2013)

SMDH!!! what an idiot inspector.... you telling me 10/2 w/ground can not be used to wire a hot water tank because it has a white conductor for a hot...lol....


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## btharmy (Jan 17, 2009)

Chrisibew440 said:


> Well and now I think I've read that every box that's fed with a cable or cord needs a grounded conductor in it?


That is for switches.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Chrisibew440 said:


> ...What about nothing under the size of #8 can be re-identified...


 Check out 200.7(C)(1).

My MO was to take one of these and cut a "V" shaped notch in the tip that the wire fit into:








Two quick swipes up the length of the conductor and it was permanently re-identified.


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## Chrisibew440 (Sep 13, 2013)

A Little Short said:


> You have to do a little thinking when reading.
> 200.6(A) says: size 6 or smaller, so that means just what it says...6 or smaller
> 
> 200.6(B) says sizes larger than 6, so to be larger than 6, you would start at #4.
> ...


That's not what I thought and I know what I read on 200.6 
Just thought I'd read somewhere it specifies #4


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## Chrisibew440 (Sep 13, 2013)

Fibes said:


> It doesn't appear as though he did.


I have not. Just getting back to the site.


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

Chrisibew440 said:


> That's not what I thought and I know what I read on 200.6
> Just thought I'd read somewhere it specifies #4


Now you didn't expect the NEC to make it as clear as that did you?:jester:


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## Chrisibew440 (Sep 13, 2013)

A Little Short said:


> Now you didn't expect the NEC to make it as clear as that did you?:jester:


No kidding.


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## jr360 (Dec 7, 2011)

I am a builder and a electrician. When a home inspecter shows up at one of my houses, I refuse to let him in. They are idoits!


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## FrunkSlammer (Aug 31, 2013)

Those that can, build.

Those that can't build, teach.

Those that can't teach, home inspect.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

This thread is still going over an elementary question? 


Reminds me of the HI websites. 100 posts gibberish leading to the conclusion the dripping faucet caused is causing the roof to leak:laughing:


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## fisstech (Feb 2, 2013)

ask numb nuts to show him what code rule says you can't do that, and then ask him if electricity cares what color the conductors insulator is.


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## Electric Universe CA (Apr 30, 2014)

FrunkSlammer said:


> Those that can, build.
> 
> Those that can't build, teach.
> 
> Those that can't teach, home inspect.


SO TRUE! HAHA. If you don't mind I will tell that to my inspector tomorrow!


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## chris.b (Jan 28, 2013)

fxrguy said:


> I have a friend who had a "home inspector" write him up for a 240V circuit that is using the neutral/white conductor as one of the phase conductors. He says it is marked with black phase tape. My question is if this is code compliant?


What is the circuit? Water heater? Dryer? Was he trying to say that the bare ground can't be used as a neutral?


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

chris.b said:


> ...Was he trying to say that the bare ground can't be used as a neutral?


 Sounds like there was no neutral and the guy landed the white on the breaker as a hot leg. I've always hated that re-identification rule, it's code for the untrained: 

If someone sees a white on a switch or two-pole breaker and doesn't _immediately_ understand what they're looking at, then they shouldn't be doing electrical work.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Of course we are all assuming it is a cable assemble of some sort. If the run was in conduit then you cannot re-identify a white conductor as a hot conductor


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## electures (Oct 23, 2008)

FrunkSlammer said:


> Those that can, build.
> 
> Those that can't build, teach.
> 
> Those that can't teach, home inspect.


ANd if it wasn't for a teacher you wouldn't be able to read this.


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## crosport (Apr 4, 2010)

Just out of curiosity do you guys south of the border use Heatex-the red sheathed 2 conductor romex with black and red conductors?Most of us up here use it for all our 240 volt heating and water heater loads.Personally I don't like identifying a white conductor as hot but will if that is the only option available.


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