# Neutral and Ground seperation at Sub Panel - Code Requirments in California



## Brighton (Apr 2, 2021)

Several times a week I end up on a Residential troubleshooting jobs, and have some questions regarding Neutral and Ground separation in Sub Panels.

Today was a perfect example. The customer complained that they were burning out Comcast Modems due to high voltages on the Coaxial cable (According to Comcast). I confirmed that the voltage was present at about 40 Volts.

After inspecting the panel configurations I noticed that the Neutral and Ground terminations were reversed in the panel, which was effectively causing an alternative path for the neutral return current to flow. Now normally I would say this would be an easy fix, but for some reason this configuration is being passed by the city inspectors here in Sacramento. I have called it out a hundred times on new work, but each time have been talked down to and made fun of for not knowing Sacramento Building Code. So today I just gave a diagnosis, wrote the report and got the heck out of there.

I don't expect that most on the forum will be familiar with the Sacramento Building Code, but I will add some details about the service below. Feel free to chime in with anything (Code) that is relevant. I hate feeling like I don't know what I am looking at, or why it was done. It is now becoming common to see voltage present on all the copper water pipes at many residential properties due to shared neutrals and grounds on sub panels. My question is, why are they doing this? The only answer I have gotten from the supervisor of inspectors here was that I am supposed to know the answer. Which just seems crazy. So I am trying to figure out, why are they doing this?

The Property:

The Service used to be at the back of the house, but was moved to the front corner to reach the new power poles. The overhead service and service meter box is at the front, and the sub panel with all the branch circuits is at the rear.

All the grounding electrodes and bonding originate at the service meter and looked good.

(Images are of the sub panel at the rear. As you can see the neutral and ground terminations are reversed, and the neutrals have been bonded to the case with the strap from left to right, and bonded with the green ground screw there.
The label shows the correct way.)

It passed inspection. They all do.


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

You are correct they are wrong plain and simple. The drawing is correct and the insulated bus bar is neutral, it is insulated for that reason. 
Some where it will state in the code that neural SHALL be insulted from ground at subpanels. You will have to show them that. I don't think a building code can go less than NEC it can go above it.

Cowboy


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## SWDweller (Dec 9, 2020)

You have a couple of paths, one ignore this. Or you can make a big deal about it to the code enforcement supervisors. The documentation you provided here should be good enough for those who can read. The inspectors are creating a unsafe situation by passing this. 
Now comes the back lash. You could get black balled by code enforcement. More documented examples of the situation would be good, and if you can who is passing them. Would be right handy to have a practicing state registered electrical engineer to write a supporting document.
Taking on the code enforcement group locally is not for the faint of heart. You may find that it is a small group of inspectors or maybe just one. Uncovering this will no doubt lead to someone loosing their job. 
Does you area have a investigative TV crew. One that shines light into dark corners?
You can ask them to keep you anonymous.

Best wishes on your decision


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## MotoGP1199 (Aug 11, 2014)

That one is definitely backwards, and neutrals and grounds need to be separate in sub panels. However in detached buildings it was allowed to have neutrals and grounds together before the 2008 code cycle. In 2008 the NEC made it a requirement to separate them in all sub-panels including detached buildings. Its hard to tell in the picture but if the bar in the back is connecting the isolated neutral bar and ground bar together and was installed prior to the 2008 code cycle being adopted then it was compliant at the time of the install if its a detached building, garage, or structrure.


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## Brighton (Apr 2, 2021)

Yeah, I know it is wrong, but I am just trying to understand why they keep telling me I am wrong to say it is wrong. Lol The bar does not go all the way across, I moved the wires to see, and it was just the green ground screw there. I appreciate the reference to the 2008 change for detached buildings. This one though was not a detached building, it was definetly the back of the house.


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## Brighton (Apr 2, 2021)

SWDweller said:


> You have a couple of paths, one ignore this. Or you can make a big deal about it to the code enforcement supervisors. The documentation you provided here should be good enough for those who can read. The inspectors are creating a unsafe situation by passing this.
> Now comes the back lash. You could get black balled by code enforcement. More documented examples of the situation would be good, and if you can who is passing them. Would be right handy to have a practicing state registered electrical engineer to write a supporting document.
> Taking on the code enforcement group locally is not for the faint of heart. You may find that it is a small group of inspectors or maybe just one. Uncovering this will no doubt lead to someone loosing their job.
> Does you area have a investigative TV crew. One that shines light into dark corners?
> ...


Yeah, I am not trying to go down the path of taking anyone on. At this point I am just wanting to reassure myself that when I write my reports, I am not the one who is wrong. It gets confusing when the wrong way becomes "the way it is done".

I actually, try to remain harmless in my reports. If there are significant code issues, I just give the diagnosis, make my correction recommendations, and move on. I save that task for the property owner. It is not my place to do anything else really, and I don't have the time to babysit people. Most often I find that the property owner went out of their way to find the cheapest guy, so I just let them chew on that, and try to keep my business out of it completely.


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## Brighton (Apr 2, 2021)

just the cowboy said:


> You are correct they are wrong plain and simple. The drawing is correct and the insulated bus bar is neutral, it is insulated for that reason.
> Some where it will state in the code that neural SHALL be insulted from ground at subpanels. You will have to show them that. I don't think a building code can go less than NEC it can go above it.
> 
> Cowboy


Thanks for the reply. Here is a reference from the 2017 code.


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## CMP (Oct 30, 2019)

It appears that the isolated neutral bar has no existing bonding jumper to the enclosure or ground strap across the can. If the two terminal bars neutral and ground, were bonded together, as was done prior to 2008 code, there would be less problems.

On the left side ground bar, you can see the hex head screw bonding to the ground strap going across the can. But on the right side at the neutral bar, there is no bonding screw or strap to connect the neutral bar to the enclosure or the grounding strap.

All neutral wire load currents have no direct connection to the feeder neutral, because of this, so they use other paths such as the communication cables. The panel as a subpanel should have been fed with a 4 wire feeder not a 3 wire feeder.


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## Brighton (Apr 2, 2021)

CMP said:


> It appears that the isolated neutral bar has no existing bonding jumper to the enclosure or ground strap across the can. If the two terminal bars neutral and ground, were bonded together, as was done prior to 2008 code, there would be less problems.
> 
> On the left side ground bar, you can see the hex head screw bonding to the ground strap going across the can. But on the right side at the neutral bar, there is no bonding screw or strap to connect the neutral bar to the enclosure or the grounding strap.
> 
> All neutral wire load currents have no direct connection to the feeder neutral, because of this, so they use other paths such as the communication cables. The panel as a sub panel should have been fed with a 4 wire feeder not a 3 wire feeder.


I know it is hard to see, but there is a 4th wire neutral. It is difficult to see it because there are also a bunch of other wires stuffed into that conduit. This panel is a bit confusing to look at at first glance, but the neutrals are supposed to be landed on the right, and the grounds are supposed to be on the left. You can see the black plastic insulator around the bus bar on the right, that is the indented neutral bus bar, just as it is shown on the label. 

This was an extreme example image for the topic, but was a good example of grounds and neutrals being bonded together at a sub panel, probably unintentionally.

I think the guy just did that because the neutral wires were so short, not realizing what he was doing there. It passed inspection anyways though, as they mostly do out here in California.


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

WOW, just wow.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Well, that is dangerous and it really needs to be corrected - California shoud hang it's head in shame that such a flagrant and obvious violation went unnoticed. Close that panel up, get back to your van, and make haste with your report, don't trip over the human feces on the sidewalk, the hepatitis laden hypodermic needles, don't get mugged as you pass by the homeless encampment either.


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

Yuck .. that sure is a grotesque looking wiring job.
That's definitely a disaster waiting to happen.
I would take the advice of *SWDweller* and pursue this to the end.
It's better for an inspector to lose his job than a homeowner to get injured or worse.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

The City inspection department is practicing the typical California shuffle. Deflect, ignore, deny and say you are to blame. Basically they made a big mistake and don't want to admit it. Hopefully the issue will go away until the next set of people come into office.


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