# Solenoid testers??



## scott_8222 (Jul 3, 2008)

Is there any advantage to still having a solenoid tester in the electrical field?


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

scott_8222 said:


> Is there any advantage to still having a solenoid tester in the electrical field?


Sure. It puts a bit of a real load on the circuit to rule out 'phantom voltage' readings so common with DMM's. Plus, they don't take batteries, are relatively inexpensive, and are more tolerant of harsh environmental conditions. If I was a mill electrician or something along those lines, a solenoid tester might be my every day meter.


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## Toronto Sparky (Apr 12, 2009)

Life would be a lot harder without my volcon


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## scott_8222 (Jul 3, 2008)

MDShunk- Is there hazard of the tester blowing up as this meter will be used in a live factory?


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## scott_8222 (Jul 3, 2008)

In addition what about measuring amps?


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

scott_8222 said:


> In addition what about measuring amps?


As far as measuring current, you would want to buy a clamp on ammeter.

~Matt


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

I do lots of electrical testing and when it comes to go no go testing is it energized I use a Wiggy Style tester every time.
Multimeters are a PIA to hold and use in this circumstance. 

I never use a combination meter for anything. I want an amp clamp to be a dedicated amp clamp. I do not believe in a combination hammer, pliers, screw driver works and I feel the same about test equipment.

Compact, Cat III, and a feeling of it is ON, no batteries, no calibration necessary.

Always test your tester EVERY TIME.

http://www.knoppinc.com/


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## scott_8222 (Jul 3, 2008)

So a wiggy would be good for go no go testing. However would a DMM listed as being True RMS eliminate ghost voltages?


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

scott_8222 said:


> MDShunk- Is there hazard of the tester blowing up as this meter will be used in a live factory?


Yes there is, meters need to be rated for the type (CAT) of system they are being used on, most factory systems are CAT III. 

The IEC 61010 is the new standard for low voltage “test, measurement and control equipment”. The IEC 61010 provides much improved protection against over voltage impulse transients (voltage spikes) and is the basis for:

• ANSI/ISA-S82.01-94 (US)
• CAN C22.2 No. 1010.1-92 (CAN)
• EN61010-1:1993 (EUR)

IEC 61010 defines four locations or categories: 

CAT I - Protected electronic circuits
CAT II - Receptacle outlet circuit; plug-in loads.
CAT III - Distribution wiring, including “mains” bus, feeders and branch circuits; permanently installed loads.
CAT IV - “Origin of installation” Utility level and any outside cable run
The level and energy of voltage impulses is dependent on the location. The closer the location is to the power source, the higher the available fault current, the higher the category.


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## wptski (Jun 30, 2008)

Zog said:


> Yes there is, meters need to be rated for the type (CAT) of system they are being used on, most factory systems are CAT III.
> 
> The IEC 61010 is the new standard for low voltage “test, measurement and control equipment”. The IEC 61010 provides much improved protection against over voltage impulse transients (voltage spikes) and is the basis for:
> 
> ...


Zog:

Since your in a few forums and I consider somewhat of a Safety Standards Guru, what's your personal opinion of a Kopp K-60 type wiggy? Do you use one? What do you use?

I perfer the Fluke line because along with the CAT ratings, they test their products by trying to blow them up! I've seen a video of their test chamber for that. I use a Fluke T+ Pro.


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

wptski said:


> Zog:
> 
> Since your in a few forums and I consider somewhat of a Safety Standards Guru, what's your personal opinion of a Kopp K-60 type wiggy? Do you use one? What do you use?
> 
> I perfer the Fluke line because along with the CAT ratings, they test their products by trying to blow them up! I've seen a video of their test chamber for that. I use a Fluke T+ Pro.


Never used a wiggy, never will. For LV testing I use Fluke 87 series multimeters.


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## paul d. (Jul 13, 2008)

Zog said:


> Never used a wiggy, never will. For LV testing I use Fluke 87 series multimeters.


 zog, obviously you have no expierience in construction.


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

paul d. said:


> zog, obviously you have no expierience in construction.


Never used a wiggy either, never will. Might as well use a light bulb taped to a couple of pieces of wire. Wiggys were fine in Edison’s time.


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## paul d. (Jul 13, 2008)

drsparky said:


> Never used a wiggy either, never will. Might as well use a light bulb taped to a couple of pieces of wire. Wiggys were fine in Edison’s time.


 dr, obviously you have no expierence in construction.... either.


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

paul d. said:


> dr, obviously you have no expierence in construction.... either.


 Care to explain what wiggys has to do with construction? :001_huh:


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## paul d. (Jul 13, 2008)

drsparky said:


> Care to explain what wiggys has to do with construction? :001_huh:


 sure. why carry a $ 200 dvm in the mud to check out why the block saw aint got no power. wiggy works just fine. its mainly just the right tool for the job. amazing what can happen to stuff in construction work. keep the fluke in the truck til the job requires it.


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## BadSplice (Sep 5, 2009)

So if someone uses an expensive tool, they have no experience in construction? 

I've been using my Fluke T5 for many, many years. It's one tester that will do continuity, current, and give me a real voltage measurement. It's made for the construction site and costs about $90. The leads are much thicker than normal leads and the probes snap into the case of the meter for storage as well as clipping into the top of the meter so you can test with two hands while still holding the meter.


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

A tick tester in will "check out why the block saw aint got no power". You also can buy a good rugged DVM for the same price as a wiggy.


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## BadSplice (Sep 5, 2009)

drsparky said:


> A tick tester in will "check out why the block saw aint got no power". *You also can buy a good rugged DVM for the same price as a wiggy.*


http://www.techtoolsupply.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=3544


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## paul d. (Jul 13, 2008)

if i was'nt getting so close to retirement thats the next tester i would get. some of the guys i work with have em . did'nt have em 30 yrs ago.


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## Voltage Hazard (Aug 10, 2009)

BadSplice said:


> I've been using my Fluke T5 for many, many years. It's one tester that will do continuity, current, and give me a real voltage measurement. It's made for the construction site and costs about $90.


The T5 is a great tool, BUT it still can't do a few tests that the wiggy (or traditional solenoid tester) can do. 

A ghost voltage can occur when several wires are ran together for a distance. If a live wire is ran together with a dead wire in a conduit run, that dead wire will pick up voltage from the live wire. Those wires ran together act like a big capacitor, and the voltage couples into the dead wire. If you put a Fluke T5, or any DMM, on that dead wire, you will read voltage. That is because DMM's , and the T5, have a very high input impedance, and draw almost no current from the voltage they are measuring. Since you draw no current, you read that coupled (ghost) voltage on the "dead" wire. The solenoid tester has a input impedance of around 10,000 ohms, so it will draw about 12 milliamps off the voltage it is measuring. It puts a good "load" on the circuit. Since that ghost voltage has no ability to supply the current the solenoid tester needs, you will not measure that ghost voltage. That is why a solenoid tester is a good tool to determine live circuits, and is still used by so many people.

The many references to construction is because you have ghost voltages all over the place. When you are pulling new wire, and looking for live wires, there are good chances there are a few dead ones in the group. I want to know for sure which are live, and which are not, and the T5 will not do that for me. Some DMM's like the Fluke 117 have a low Z setting to eliminate ghost voltages, and those can be used. But, it easier to use the wiggy.

Another advantage of a wiggy is testing GFCI outlets. Since they draw about 12 mA, they will trip a good GFCI outlet if you measure between hot and ground. If the outlet does not trip with a wiggy, it is defective.

So, solenoid testers DO have their place in construction. It not about how much money you spent, or how big your tool is. :whistling2:


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## Chris Kennedy (Nov 19, 2007)

NEMA recommends the use of low impedance meters. I carry a Fluke T+.


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## wptski (Jun 30, 2008)

Zog said:


> Never used a wiggy, never will. For LV testing I use Fluke 87 series multimeters.


Sounds like you don't even trust a CAT-III rated solenoid tester??


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## BadSplice (Sep 5, 2009)

Voltage Hazard said:


> The T5 is a great tool, BUT it still can't do a few tests that the wiggy (or traditional solenoid tester) can do.
> 
> A ghost voltage can occur when several wires are ran together for a distance. If a live wire is ran together with a dead wire in a conduit run, that dead wire will pick up voltage from the live wire. Those wires ran together act like a big capacitor, and the voltage couples into the dead wire. If you put a Fluke T5, or any DMM, on that dead wire, you will read voltage. That is because DMM's , and the T5, have a very high input impedance, and draw almost no current from the voltage they are measuring. Since you draw no current, you read that coupled (ghost) voltage on the "dead" wire. The solenoid tester has a input impedance of around 10,000 ohms, so it will draw about 12 milliamps off the voltage it is measuring. It puts a good "load" on the circuit. Since that ghost voltage has no ability to supply the current the solenoid tester needs, you will not measure that ghost voltage. That is why a solenoid tester is a good tool to determine live circuits, and is still used by so many people.
> 
> ...


I'm sure everyone here knows about phantom voltages possibly tricking a MM, that's why I keep an old Klein Wiggy in the truck (right next to the wire stretcher and blinker fluid). In all my years I never had an issue in which I had to go out and get the Wiggy...

As for testing GFI's, that's what receptacle testers are for. They cost about $8 and they are much faster than using a tester with leads, especially when you have a couple hundred (or thousand) receptacles to test.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

BadSplice said:


> I'm sure everyone here knows about phantom voltages possibly tricking a MM, ...


Don't be so sure. Seldom does very much time pass by where a question related to the so-called 'phantom voltage' doesn't arise.


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## wptski (Jun 30, 2008)

BadSplice said:


> I'm sure everyone here knows about phantom voltages possibly tricking a MM, that's why I keep an old Klein Wiggy in the truck (right next to the wire stretcher and blinker fluid). In all my years I never had an issue in which I had to go out and get the Wiggy...
> 
> As for testing GFI's, that's what receptacle testers are for. They cost about $8 and they are much faster than using a tester with leads, especially when you have a couple hundred (or thousand) receptacles to test.


I'm not even a electrician and I've ran into "ghost voltage" several times!

As much as I hate to repeat this statement but the "only" approved way to test a GFCI is the using the test button. UL says that there is no such thing as a GFCI tester. In fact, I'll bet there is a note included with your $8 GFCI tester about this. I have a Ideal Suretest 61-165 which has the note included.


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

Any good troubleshooter should recognize the situations were "phantom" voltages would be a factor. Inductive voltage on wires grouped together would be more likely than capacitive coupling. Capacitive coupling should, in theory charge up to the source voltage. Inductive will produce a few volts on the “dead” conductors. Even a high impedance meter would be enough to discharge a capacitive charge and if you have a bar graph on the meter you will even see the 5 time constant beat as it discharges like any capacitor.


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## Voltage Hazard (Aug 10, 2009)

BadSplice said:


> I'm sure everyone here knows about phantom voltages possibly tricking a MM, that's why I keep an old Klein Wiggy in the truck (right next to the wire stretcher and blinker fluid). In all my years I never had an issue in which I had to go out and get the Wiggy...
> 
> As for testing GFI's, that's what receptacle testers are for. They cost about $8 and they are much faster than using a tester with leads, especially when you have a couple hundred (or thousand) receptacles to test.


Really?

Is that why the original poster asked why wiggys still had a use? He does not know much about ghost voltages, because he asked if a TRMS meter was for that, and they are totally unrelated. 

I also know that many people use a $8 GFCI cube, but there are many users of this board that use a wiggy for that too. I remember seeing a poll where like 60% of wiggy users tested GFCI with them. I don't care if it the "right way", or not. I'm just saying it's done.

Not everyone on this board is as smart as you. There are a lot of newb's who come here looking for answers. I am new to this group, and try to answer when I can. If you are old enough to have a Klein wiggy, maybe you're just a grumpy old man.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

With almost thirty years in the trade, I grab a wiggy first for simple power trouble shooting. It vibrates, it shows what the voltage is doesnt need batteries, and the new one I just got has a continuity indicator. Anything more than that I break out the lab coat and the Fluke.:thumbsup:


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## BadSplice (Sep 5, 2009)

Voltage Hazard said:


> Really?
> 
> Is that why the original poster asked why wiggys still had a use? He does not know much about ghost voltages, because he asked if a TRMS meter was for that, and they are totally unrelated.
> 
> ...


Woah dude, you challenged me, I simply replied to your post. No need to be so snobby, pull those panties out and get back to work :thumbsup:


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## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

wptski said:


> I'm not even a electrician and I've ran into "ghost voltage" several times!
> 
> As much as I hate to repeat this statement but the "only" approved way to test a GFCI is the using the test button. UL says that there is no such thing as a GFCI tester. In fact, I'll bet there is a note included with your $8 GFCI tester about this. I have a Ideal Suretest 61-165 which has the note included.


You're thinking of AFCI's not GFCI's. The Ideal Suretest 61-165 is an AFCI tester. 

You most certainly can test a GFCI with a solenoid tester, a receptacle tester, a GFCI tester, or my personal choice the Fluke T+ Pro.


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

wptski said:


> Sounds like you don't even trust a CAT-III rated solenoid tester??


No, I just dont use LV meters much, the 87 does everything I would need it to do. I have tested hundreds of GFI's but never a GFCI, never done resi work.


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## wptski (Jun 30, 2008)

EBFD6 said:


> You're thinking of AFCI's not GFCI's. The Ideal Suretest 61-165 is an AFCI tester.
> 
> You most certainly can test a GFCI with a solenoid tester, a receptacle tester, a GFCI tester, or my personal choice the Fluke T+ Pro.


Nope, the SureTest 61-165 tester has a GFCI and AFCI function. The GFCI tester thingy has been banged around in other furums and most everybody just states what UL says, no such thing as a GFCI tester along with their only approved test is to use its built in test button. A GFCI can be used on circuits without a ground wire. Try using your GFCI tester on that. It won't trip because it needs a ground to function. They can't simulate a true current imbalance which the test button does.


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## Toronto Sparky (Apr 12, 2009)

Voltage Hazard said:


> Really?
> 
> Is that why the original poster asked why wiggys still had a use? He does not know much about ghost voltages, because he asked if a TRMS meter was for that, and they are totally unrelated.
> 
> ...


But all "Wiggys" are made by Square D


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## Toronto Sparky (Apr 12, 2009)

I've had all three neons light up on a cube.. Seems they don't tell you what that means?

In my case it was a isolated ground circuit where the ground had be removed at the source and there were a few computers plugged into the same circuit that apparently had leakage to ground.


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## BadSplice (Sep 5, 2009)

Toronto Sparky said:


> But all "Wiggys" are made by Square D


My Klein says "Wiggy" right at the top.


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## Toronto Sparky (Apr 12, 2009)

BadSplice said:


> My Klein says "Wiggy" right at the top.


Hmmm.. Than I am guessing someone bought someone out or the rights to the name.
My Square D Wiggys are an antique from the 60s.
I keep them at home as Ideal Volcon is my choice these days.

http://www.squared.com/us/products/machine_safety.nsf/unid/58870E11543C976885256D500050927B/$file/wiggy.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solenoid_voltmeter


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## BadSplice (Sep 5, 2009)

Toronto Sparky said:


> Hmmm.. Than I am guessing someone bought someone out or the rights to the name.
> My Square D Wiggys are an antique from the 60s.
> I keep them at home as Ideal Volcon is my choice these days.


I've seen the same thing as mine with a Square D symbol on it, Klein must have bought it like they do with so many of their tools. Have you been in a Home Depot lately? They only sell Klein now, no more Greenlee. However, every single tool Greenlee tool that they used to sell now has a Klein package around it. It's still the exact same tool but with the Klein name and sometimes a different color. These are all tools that Klein didn't make before.



> http://www.squared.com/us/products/machine_safety.nsf/unid/58870E11543C976885256D500050927B/$file/wiggy.htm


Yeah, that's the Klein.


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

BadSplice said:


> I've seen the same thing as mine with a Square D symbol on it, .


Sure you don't mean the Class II (Double Insulated) symbol? 



Looks a lot like Square D


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## BadSplice (Sep 5, 2009)

Zog said:


> Sure you don't mean the Class II (Double Insulated) symbol?
> 
> 
> 
> Looks a lot like Square D


No, both Square D and Klein made/make the same exact model Wiggy.

Check out Toronto Sparky's links.


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## scott_8222 (Jul 3, 2008)

So all in all, which would be a better choice for troubleshooting in an industrial setting a solenoid tester or a vol-con or both?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

scott_8222 said:


> So all in all, which would be a better choice for troubleshooting in an industrial setting a solenoid tester or a vol-con or both?


I HATE THE VOLT-CON and would not use it for a door stop.


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## paul d. (Jul 13, 2008)

brian john said:


> I HATE THE VOLT-CON and would not use it for a door stop.


 EXACTLY why ??????


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

paul d. said:


> EXACTLY why ??????


Because it would make a terrible door stop. I wouldn't use a Vol-Con for a door stop either.


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## BadSplice (Sep 5, 2009)

brian john said:


> I HATE THE VOLT-CON and would not use it for a door stop.


What don't you like about the Vol Con? I like the Vol Con above my Klein/Square D Wiggy because it has a continuity tester in it.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

BadSplice said:


> What don't you like about the Vol Con?


It's yellow. That's an awful color for a solenoid tester.


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## BadSplice (Sep 5, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> It's yellow. That's an awful color for a solenoid tester.


It's ok for a DMM tho, right? I sure hope so or else I threw out a LOT of money.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

BadSplice said:


> It's ok for a DMM tho, right? I sure hope so or else I threw out a LOT of money.


Yes, yellow is the preferred color for a DMM.


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## electricalperson (Jan 11, 2008)

get a knopp k60 best solenoid tester on the market


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## BadSplice (Sep 5, 2009)

electricalperson said:


> get a knopp k60 best solenoid tester on the market


What do you like about it better than the Vol Con or the Klein Wiggy?


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## electricalperson (Jan 11, 2008)

BadSplice said:


> What do you like about it better than the Vol Con or the Klein Wiggy?


the k60 is cat 3 rated the vol con and wiggy isnt


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

BadSplice said:


> What do you like about it better than the Vol Con or the Klein Wiggy?


Comparison.

http://www.knoppinc.com/voltage_tester_comparison.htm


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## BadSplice (Sep 5, 2009)

It doesn't use batteries like the Klein Wiggy, but that's a negative since it won't do continuity testing like the Vol Con.

So the only benefit is that it's Cat 3 rated.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

BadSplice said:


> It doesn't use batteries like the Klein Wiggy, but that's a negative since it won't do continuity testing like the Vol Con.
> 
> So the only benefit is that it's Cat 3 rated.


Made in the USA is important to some people.


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## wptski (Jun 30, 2008)

electricalperson said:


> the k60 is cat 3 rated the vol con and wiggy isnt


The Vol Con is Cat III-1000V rated.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

I want my solenoid tester to be a voltage tester ONLY, I do not want continuity on a voltage tester.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

brian john said:


> I want my solenoid tester to be a voltage tester ONLY, I do not want continuity on a voltage tester.


Then stick with the real "Wiggy", it's a one trick pony.


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## wptski (Jun 30, 2008)

Voltage Hazard said:


> The T5 is a great tool, BUT it still can't do a few tests that the wiggy (or traditional solenoid tester) can do.
> 
> A ghost voltage can occur when several wires are ran together for a distance. If a live wire is ran together with a dead wire in a conduit run, that dead wire will pick up voltage from the live wire. Those wires ran together act like a big capacitor, and the voltage couples into the dead wire. If you put a Fluke T5, or any DMM, on that dead wire, you will read voltage. That is because DMM's , and the T5, have a very high input impedance, and draw almost no current from the voltage they are measuring. Since you draw no current, you read that coupled (ghost) voltage on the "dead" wire. The solenoid tester has a input impedance of around 10,000 ohms, so it will draw about 12 milliamps off the voltage it is measuring. It puts a good "load" on the circuit. Since that ghost voltage has no ability to supply the current the solenoid tester needs, you will not measure that ghost voltage. That is why a solenoid tester is a good tool to determine live circuits, and is still used by so many people.
> 
> ...


The manual states that the input impedance of a Ideal Vol Con is 1M.

The input impedance of the T+ and T+PRO is 20K at low voltages and goes up to about 240K when 600 volts is applied, so says Fluke.

Is that 1M for the Vol Con a bit too high or not to eliminate ghost voltages? Ideal's description is that it has a low impedance to eliminate ghost voltages. That's much lower that a typical DMM but I've never used one.


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## BadSplice (Sep 5, 2009)

brian john said:


> I want my solenoid tester to be a voltage tester ONLY, I do not want continuity on a voltage tester.


How do you tighten lock nuts or remove knock-outs? Just curious.


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## Kevin J (Dec 11, 2008)

BadSplice said:


> How do you tighten lock nuts or remove knock-outs? Just curious.



He uses this.:thumbsup:


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## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

BadSplice said:


> How do you tighten lock nuts or remove knock-outs? Just curious.


 
How do you tighten locknuts with wiggy's? I've never seen that.


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

Kevin J said:


> He uses this.:thumbsup:


I've never seen that before, can I assume it is for lock nuts? Details please.


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## BadSplice (Sep 5, 2009)

EBFD6 said:


> How do you tighten locknuts with wiggy's? I've never seen that.


Me neither. Why would he do that?


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## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

BadSplice said:


> Me neither. Why would he do that?


I don't know, you brought it up.

The discussion was about wiggy's, and Brian said:


brian john said:


> I want my solenoid tester to be a voltage tester ONLY, I do not want continuity on a voltage tester.


Then you asked: 


BadSplice said:


> How do you tighten lock nuts or remove knock-outs? Just curious.


I just thought maybe you had a trick you were going to teach us, that's all.
















Really, I was just being a smart a$$. I guess you missed it.:whistling2:


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## BadSplice (Sep 5, 2009)

EBFD6 said:


> Really, I was just being a smart a$$. I guess you missed it.:whistling2:


No, I noticed, I was just dragging it out.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

For _standard_ troubleshooting I *always* use a wiggy. 

It's faster/easier because I can feel the voltage instead of having to wait for the display and be in a position to read it. It will also test GFCI circuits.

If the situation calls for it, I use a meter.


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## Kevin J (Dec 11, 2008)

drsparky said:


> I've never seen that before, can I assume it is for lock nuts? Details please.


Here you go. :thumbsup:
http://www.acehardwareoutlet.com/(jsamhwbhqap55555xsjrt0yl)/ProductDetails.aspx?SKU=2130007482


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## Voltage Hazard (Aug 10, 2009)

wptski said:


> The manual states that the input impedance of a Ideal Vol Con is 1M.
> 
> The input impedance of the T+ and T+PRO is 20K at low voltages and goes up to about 240K when 600 volts is applied, so says Fluke.
> 
> Is that 1M for the Vol Con a bit too high or not to eliminate ghost voltages? Ideal's description is that it has a low impedance to eliminate ghost voltages. That's much lower that a typical DMM but I've never used one.


The Volt Con "ELITE" has a 1 Meg input impedance. That is a solid state tester, and not a solenoid type tester. Solenoid testers are generally around 10,000 ohms. I looked at the manual for the Volt Con, and it does not list the impedance. Anyway........I would not trust a unit with a 1 Meg input impedance to eliminate a ghost voltage. Yes 1 Meg is much lower than the 10 Meg of a typical DMM, but still high for ghost voltage.

I have never used a Elite, because (to me) it is way over priced. I would pick a Fluke T+ at $50 over a Ideal Elite at $70 anyday. Hell, I would pick a $50 Fluke over a $40 Ideal Elite. Fluke did it right with the T+. It is also solid state, and not a solenoid. But, it keeps a low input impedance close to the solenoid. Fluke knows what it is doing, Ideal is well.........not so Ideal.


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## BadSplice (Sep 5, 2009)

So the Fluke 117 and the T+ are the only non-solenoid testers that will not be tricked by phantom voltages?


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## Voltage Hazard (Aug 10, 2009)

BadSplice said:


> So the Fluke 117 and the T+ are the only non-solenoid testers that will not be tricked by phantom voltages?


Didn't say that. 

The Fluke 114, 116, 117 all have low impedance settings. I'm sure Fluke has a few others, but I don't work for Fluke, and know their entire line. Sperry also has a low impedance DMM. I don't know all DMM's with low impedance, but I'm sure there are more. For a non-solenoid voltage tester, the Fluke T+ has a low input impedance, and the Ideal does not. There are other solid state testers out there (I know sperry has one too), but I have not tried them. When you can get a T+ for under $50, why bother with other brands for higher, or around the same price?

Bottom line is you want something about 30,000 ohms, or lower to eliminate ghost voltages. The solenoids are around 10,000, the T+ is around 20,000, the Fluke DMM with Lo Z are only 3,000, and Fluke also sells a 3,000 ohm "ghost eliminator" that can be added in front of other DMM's to add low impedance to them.


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## wptski (Jun 30, 2008)

BadSplice said:


> So the Fluke 117 and the T+ are the only non-solenoid testers that will not be tricked by phantom voltages?


Well, not really! Fluke's high end 289 has a LoZ feature also. One thing is that in the 289 manual it mentions that if the LoZ feature is used, the accuracy of "some" and I forget which features will decrease. You have to wait, I think ten minutes for cooling. Nothing is mentioned for the 117 manual about this issue.

Fluke also sells the SV225 stray voltage adapter that plug into any DMM that gives the LoZ feature.


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## wptski (Jun 30, 2008)

Voltage Hazard said:


> The Volt Con "ELITE" has a 1 Meg input impedance. That is a solid state tester, and not a solenoid type tester. Solenoid testers are generally around 10,000 ohms. I looked at the manual for the Volt Con, and it does not list the impedance. Anyway........I would not trust a unit with a 1 Meg input impedance to eliminate a ghost voltage. Yes 1 Meg is much lower than the 10 Meg of a typical DMM, but still high for ghost voltage.
> 
> I have never used a Elite, because (to me) it is way over priced. I would pick a Fluke T+ at $50 over a Ideal Elite at $70 anyday. Hell, I would pick a $50 Fluke over a $40 Ideal Elite. Fluke did it right with the T+. It is also solid state, and not a solenoid. But, it keeps a low input impedance close to the solenoid. Fluke knows what it is doing, Ideal is well.........not so Ideal.


The T+ Pro has the GFCI test function too. The T+/T+ Pro won't trip a GFCI by itself. I have a T+ Pro. I like the fact that if no voltage is present, it switches to resistance automaticaly.


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## BadSplice (Sep 5, 2009)

What benefit does the Fluke T+ have over Solenoid testers?

The T+ Pro has a digital readout so it's more like a DMM. But the T+ seems like an expensive alternative to a Solenoid tester.


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## Voltage Hazard (Aug 10, 2009)

BadSplice said:


> What benefit does the Fluke T+ have over Solenoid testers?
> 
> The T+ Pro has a digital readout so it's more like a DMM. But the T+ seems like an expensive alternative to a Solenoid tester.


There are a bunch of things that a T+ gives you over a solenoid tester. The issue is whether or not any of these features are worth the price to you. If you just want a low impedance go/no-go tester for 120V, and nothing else, then go solenoid. But, here is why a T+ is worth the extra cash over a solenoid.

1. It is solid state, and much safer than solenoid. It has a CAT IV rating, and no solenoid tester on the market (even the knopp) can do that.
2. It has detailed voltage readings, down to 12V. No guessing if that plunger is at 240, or 277. The T+ will tell you. Not important if you are just doing go/no-go.
3. In addition to the detailed voltage lights, it gives vibration AND sound. Solenoid is vibration only, and not a heavy vibration.
4. The T+ provides a worklight
5. The T+ includes a GFCI test button. A solenoid will always trip a GFCI when measuring between hot and gnd. A T+ will trip that only when you want it to.
6. The T+ also does continuity.

These are a lot of things over a solenoid, but many of them require a battery. It comes down to what you want for your money.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

BadSplice said:


> What benefit does the Fluke T+ have over Solenoid testers?
> 
> The T+ Pro has a digital readout so it's more like a DMM. But the T+ seems like an expensive alternative to a Solenoid tester.


 
It reads much lower voltages than a solenoid tester and has a better ohms scale rather than just continuity. I think it's great as a troubleshooting meter for sticking in your back pocket.


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## BadSplice (Sep 5, 2009)

Voltage Hazard said:


> 1. It is solid state, and much safer than solenoid. It has a CAT IV rating, and no solenoid tester on the market (even the knopp) can do that.
> 2. It has detailed voltage readings, down to 12V. No guessing if that plunger is at 240, or 277. The T+ will tell you. Not important if you are just doing go/no-go.
> 3. In addition to the detailed voltage lights, it gives vibration AND sound. Solenoid is vibration only, and not a heavy vibration.
> 4. The T+ provides a worklight
> ...


1) Someone mentioned earlier in the thread that the VolCon has a Cat III rating, I just checked and it is true.
2) No electrician should ever question the difference between 240V and 277V
3) The VolCon gives both vibration and sound too
4) That's one benefit of the T+ if you desire that feature
5) That's two benefits of the T+ if you desire that feature
6) The VolCon also does continuity

When I say "VolCon" I should be saying "Ideal Solenoid Voltage Tester". I thought the VolCon was the name of the entire line of testers, but it is not.



MechanicalDVR said:


> has a better ohms scale rather than just continuity.


 Isn't that the T+ Pro? The T+ Pro has many apparent benefits, being a full DMM and all. But the base model T+ seems lacking.


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## wptski (Jun 30, 2008)

BadSplice said:


> 1) Isn't that the T+ Pro? The T+ Pro has many apparent benefits, being a full DMM and all. But the base model T+ seems lacking.


I wouldn't call the T+ Pro a "full DMM" just digital with more features than the T+ version. It is CAT IV rated instead of CAT III.


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## BadSplice (Sep 5, 2009)

wptski said:


> I wouldn't call the T+ Pro a "full DMM" just digital with more features than the T+ version. It is CAT IV rated instead of CAT III.


Yeah, I guess that's up for debate. I don't know how to exactly define a DMM, but the T+ Pro comes close.


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## Voltage Hazard (Aug 10, 2009)

BadSplice said:


> 1) Someone mentioned earlier in the thread that the VolCon has a Cat III rating, I just checked and it is true.
> 2) No electrician should ever question the difference between 240V and 277V
> 3) The VolCon gives both vibration and sound too
> 4) That's one benefit of the T+ if you desire that feature
> ...


Dude,

Do you just like arguing, or what? You seem very capable of researching the differences, and appear to already know them, so why ask me the difference? I'm not trying to talk you into a T+. If you like the Volt Con, then more power to ya. You asked the difference between a solenoid tester, and a T+. I assumed you meant straight solenoid, and not a VoltCon, because you said the T+ was a expensive alternative. I would agree if you were comparing a $45 T+ with a $20 solenoid tester. But, a VoltCon sells for between $30 and $35, so it is not that much more "expensive". At any rate, let's go go back to the list.

1. I said the T+ is CAT IV, which is safer than the CAT III of the Ideal
2. My point was that it gives a easier to read level of voltage than a spring loaded bar on a scale. Plus, it is a LED light that can be seen in the dark, and is way easier to read than a solenoid tester or VoltCon
3. I did not know the VoltCon had sound on voltage measurement, but my list was comparing a staright solenoid tester, which is what I thought you asked about.
4. A benefit if worth the price
5. A benefit if worth the price
6. A VoltCon does do continuity. VoltCon means Voltage/Continuity.

So, over a VoltCon the T+ offers higher safey rating, easy to read lighted voltage display, worklight, ability to turn sound and vibration off (if desired), and GFCI test. If that's not worth $10 more, then stick with the VoltCon. I'm not trying to convert you. You asked what you got for the extra money, and that's the list.


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## wptski (Jun 30, 2008)

BadSplice said:


> Yeah, I guess that's up for debate. I don't know how to exactly define a DMM, but the T+ Pro comes close.


It's listed under Electrical Testers at Fluke's site not under Digital Multi-Meters.


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## Voltage Hazard (Aug 10, 2009)

BadSplice said:


> I don't know how to exactly define a DMM, but the T+ Pro comes close.


DMM stands for Digital Multi-Meter. Meaning is performs multiple functions in one unit. How many functions do you need before you consider yourself a DMM is up for debate. But, most DMM's will measure voltage, current, resistance, capacitance, and frequency. A T+ Pro only measures voltage and resistance. It's more than 1, so it could be a "multi" meter. But, that is a stretch. 

However, most electrictians only need voltage, resistance, and current. For current, you need more than a DMM can give, so you have a clamp for that. So, a T+ Pro covers the needs of many.


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## BadSplice (Sep 5, 2009)

Voltage Hazard said:


> Dude,
> 
> Do you just like arguing, or what? You seem very capable of researching the differences, and appear to already know them, so why ask me the difference?


*DUDE!!!* 

You seem to be the one incapable of having a conversation. There is a big difference between discussing something and arguing. Not everything has to go your way, some people have different opinions. Pull your panties out of your crack and get with the program!


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## Toronto Sparky (Apr 12, 2009)

600 VDC makes a nice vibration free snap!


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