# Confused about a conversation...



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Based on the questions you are asking, I'd say you should focus on learning the whats and whys of what is going on with this job, and not to attempt to baffle your boss with BS or some bit of info you picked up on a message board.

Aluminum is used because it's cheaper than copper wire and aluminum pipe is used because it's easier to bend and lighter in weight than galvanized ridgid pipe. A 3 phase 600a service would probably require protection by the utility via ridgid pipe, whereas a 200a single phase farm service might have a lower, more residential standard like unprotected SEU cable... 

You use parallel conductors because it's easier to transport, handle and pull and terminate than one full sized conductor. Once you've worked with and terminated 750 KcMil copper you'll understand.


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## Hellerex (Jul 28, 2008)

*If I wanted sarcasm...*

Really? Aluminum is cheaper than Copper? And it's lighter and bends easier too? WOW! Your acumen astounds.

Try not to treat people who come to you for advice like morons.

I have real questions; I'm not interested in BS. Maybe that's your gig. 

I said I wanted something intelligent to say. (Implying, for the literate, that I'd like to understand what I'm talking about.) 

I was under the impression that this was a forum for learning, and that no reasonable question would be derided.

So, basically, you don't know why the power company requires a study; you don't know if there will be a voltage drop, or what it would be; you don't know why they are derating; you didn't address the question about the size of the wire and pipe; you have no idea what all this could have to do with solar; and you can't tell me anything about wye vs. delta.

OK, I'm going back to work now.

Thanks LawnGuy :thumbsup:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

> (?). My first question is why can't the customer just get whatever size service they are willing to pay for?


Because the utility may not have this available in certain areas.



> Then my boss said that the run to the pole to get 3-phase is ~600', and he would have to oversize (for a voltage drop?) and run aluminum in dual pipes(?).
> 
> 
> > Play with this some varying your amperage's and you will see the voltage drop is a real issue.
> ...


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## Hellerex (Jul 28, 2008)

Cool. I have been playing with the numbers, but I thought they could get away with 350MCM in 2 4" Sched 80 PVCs? Is the resistance of Aluminum that much higher than Cu (I couldn't find a resistance number for 350 Al... Can you direct me to an online table?).

The equipment is mostly lighting and few motors (~1/2 to 10 HP) maybe 30 HP total over the farm. There are several buildings with some space heaters to, but nothing too terribly large.

I still would like to know what this could have to do with solar.

Good post.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Hellerex said:


> Really? Aluminum is cheaper than Copper? And it's lighter and bends easier too? WOW! Your acumen astounds.
> 
> Try not to treat people who come to you for advice like morons.
> 
> ...


Your question was not derided. I answered it. Sorry I focused on the more elementary elements of your inquiry, but based on the sheer quantity and quality of your questions, I figured you a helper with less than 3 months in the field, and incapable of understanding the complexities of the remainder of your confusion.

Now I know better. You're less than that, possibly with a bit of college, or very well educated parents. 



> So, basically, you don't know why the power company requires a study;


The power company requires a load calculation, and, justification for providing whatever it is you're asking for. No matter how much money you are willing to spend, the power company will not allow a 6000 amp service on an outhouse. 



> you don't know if there will be a voltage drop, or what it would be;


Since no load data was offered, you are correct. You need to offer input in order to expect an output. :jester:




> you don't know why they are derating;


I couldn't possibly be expected to know why they are derating, since you never indicated that they are derating. 



> you didn't address the question about the size of the wire and pipe;


I did, in that I explained why they were leaning toward the method you indicated. You didn't have the load data, so nobody could answer what the actual conductor or size pipe would be.

Again, garbage in, garbage out...




> you have no idea what all this could have to do with solar;


Admittedly, I didn't address the solar element of your question at all. So color me ignorant. I bypassed that because the integration of customer owned solar generation equipment onto a utility grid varies from State to State and probably from utility to utility. 

So I blew that off. But I don't feel so bad, since even your own boss blows you off too. He must be onto something.



> and you can't tell me anything about wye vs. delta.


I WON'T tell you anything about Wye vs. Delta for the same reason I won't advise a 1st year apprentice on how to work live.

It's obviously out of your league. :laughing:



> OK, I'm going back to work now.
> 
> Thanks LawnGuy :thumbsup:


Yes, grab that shovel and hop to it!


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## Hellerex (Jul 28, 2008)

*Oops...*

Guess I hit a nerve...  LawnGuy's lost it! Call a shrink!


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## Hellerex (Jul 28, 2008)

And, if I were a helper with <3 months in the field, would that make me less worthy of your sage wisdom LawnBoy?


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Hellerex, it seems LawnGuy hit a nerve with you first. Why else would you respond with such a reactionary reply?
His initial reply to you was not at all demeaning or sarcastic.

I think you should chill out a bit and see that we here are all in this together.


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## Hellerex (Jul 28, 2008)

OK, maybe you're right. 

I just didn't like that Lawn infered I was looking to bull**** my boss, and that I should "focus on learning the whats and whys", when that's exactly what I was attempting to do.
 
I'll chill if he will. But he just went to another area of the board and flamed my post there too. Of course, I've retaliated (Hey, a guy’s gotta have fun :devil2:.) 

I'd love to be "in it together"; I know that I don't know much, that's why I'm here: to learn.

So, I'll take your advice: Chill, and watch what happens next.:cool2:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Check the tables in the back of the NEC for conductor resistance.


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## dowmace (Jan 16, 2008)

Hellerex said:


> Really? Aluminum is cheaper than Copper? And it's lighter and bends easier too? WOW! Your acumen astounds.
> 
> Try not to treat people who come to you for advice like morons.
> 
> ...


I won't answer your questions but I will say go buy an Ugly's manual it will answer a lot of questions you have, and read up in the code book. Oh yea ask your Journeyman! There is no reason he shouldn't be able to answer your questions. If he cannot ask his higher up and then so on and so forth, you won't look dumb for not knowing and asking questions but you will look dumb if you walk onto the job spouting off information your learned on an internet forum with no other knowledge and code referencing to back it up.

I'm sorry but I get very aggravated when I see what could be a very promising young apprentice giving an experienced electrician crap for answering their questions over an internet forum. If you need to know about WYE vs. Delta starting checking for voltage phase to phase instead of phase to ground and trust your meter eventually you'll find out the difference! :laughing:


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## chenley (Feb 20, 2007)

Really just a simple google search would have answered a few of those questions (derating, parallel feeds, etc). 

Go get yourself an Ugly's manual there is loads of information in that.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Hellerex said:


> And, if I were a helper with <3 months in the field, would that make me less worthy of your sage wisdom LawnBoy?


Hellerex, I would not bring you up to speed in all of these issues because you seem to lack the proper foundation for the information to do you any good. As this job progresses you will pick up the information you seek, the _correct information applicable to this particular (and unique) situation only _and not some basic pointers which may or may not apply, from people who cannot see it from here. 

There are many ways to skin a cat. Which way is best depends on many variables.

The fact that you're curious is a very good thing. But your attitude and expectations could use a little tweaking. When this service is complete, you will have learned a lot about installing new services. I just don't want to put you in a situation where you know just enough to be dangerous. 

Sorry if I come off sounding snobish, but I've seen too many apprentices who learned all of the 4th year stuff before they've grasped the 1st and 2nd year stuff in an effort to impress, and they never end up the better for it.


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## Rong (Feb 23, 2008)

Hellerex said:


> And, if I were a helper with <3 months in the field, would that make me less worthy of your sage wisdom LawnBoy?


 Hellerex I do not understand why you would take offense to what Lawnboy told you. First off you did ask for understanding, from what I read of the response that he gave was helpful. I myself have been in the trade around 37 yrs and learn something from here all the time. There is no way that one person has done it all or knows it all. I am not belittling you what-so-ever but if you wand advise be ready to accept it.

Or maybe lay off the caffine


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