# 3/4 HP 120V pool pump motor w/ #14 3ft line cord



## electures (Oct 23, 2008)

I have a 3/4 HP 120V 1ph pool pump motor. Is a 3 ft #14 flexible cord with a "W" rating code compliant for the line cord?


----------



## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

is it hard wired, or have a cord cap on it?

~Matt


----------



## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

I never done a resi pool. Does a jac-tub count?


Seriously though, does the pump have a bonding lug on it?


----------



## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Unless something's changed lately, you still need a #12 ground, so that would pretty much rule out a #14 cord. You'd also be better served with a cord of sunlight resistant material. They sell pre-made pool pump cords at supply houses and pool stores. I'm still not sure why people still make them up themselves. If it's a storeable pool, you also need integral GFCI, which is hard to do on a cord you make up yourself.


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> Unless something's changed lately, you still need a #12 ground, so that would pretty much rule out a #14 cord.


Not sure I agree. 430.248 has 3/4 hp @ 13.8 amps for 120V. T. 400.5(A) has #14 rated at 18 amps for 2 ccc's . 13.8 * 1.25 = 17.25 amps. I think it is compliant.


----------



## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Not sure I agree. 430.248 has 3/4 hp @ 13.8 amps for 120V. T. 400.5(A) has #14 rated at 18 amps for 2 ccc's . 13.8 * 1.25 = 17.25 amps. I think it is compliant.


Dennis, I don't have the time to look it up right now, but there's something in 680 particular for pool pump cords needing a minimum of a #12 ground.


----------



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Not sure I agree. 430.248 has 3/4 hp @ 13.8 amps for 120V. T. 400.5(A) has #14 rated at 18 amps for 2 ccc's . 13.8 * 1.25 = 17.25 amps. I think it is compliant.


 

680 (7) (b)


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> Dennis, I don't have the time to look it up right now, but there's something in 680 particular for pool pump cords needing a minimum of a #12 ground.


Thanks I missed the pool thing. I have been missing things lately in my readings- need to slow down


----------



## electures (Oct 23, 2008)

TOOL_5150 said:


> is it hard wired, or have a cord cap on it?
> 
> ~Matt


Cord cap.


----------



## electures (Oct 23, 2008)

mcclary's electrical said:


> 680 (7) (b)


 
*680.7 Cord-and-Plug-Connected Equipment. *
Fixed or stationary equipment, other than underwater luminaires, for a permanently installed pool shall be permitted to be connected with a flexible cord and plug to facilitate the removal or disconnection for maintenance or repair. ​ 

*(A) Length. *For other than storable pools, the flexible cord shall not exceed 900 mm (3 ft) in length.​ 




*(B) Equipment Grounding. *​ 

The flexible cord shall have a copper equipment grounding conductor sized in accordance with 250.122 but not smaller than 12 AWG. The cord shall terminate in a grounding-type attachment plug. ​ 
*680.21 Motors.*​


*(A) Wiring Methods. *​


The wiring to a pool motor shall *comply with (A)(1) unless modified for specific circumstances **by (A)(2), (A)(3), (A)(4), or (A)(5).*​


*(5) Cord-and-Plug Connections. *​

Pool-associated motors shall be permitted to employ cord-and-plug connections. The flexible cord shall not exceed 900 mm (3 ft) in length. The flexible cord shall include an equipment grounding conductor sized in accordance with 250.122 and shall terminate in a grounding-type attachment plug.​


The line cord to pool-associated motors shall not exceed (3 ft) in length and shall be sized in accordance with 250.122.​ 


Therefore a #14 awg line cord is compliant. It just has to be listed for sunlight and wet locations.​


----------



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

electures said:


> *680.7 Cord-and-Plug-Connected Equipment. *
> Fixed or stationary equipment, other than underwater luminaires, for a permanently installed pool shall be permitted to be connected with a flexible cord and plug to facilitate the removal or disconnection for maintenance or repair. ​
> 
> *(A) Length. *For other than storable pools, the flexible cord shall not exceed 900 mm (3 ft) in length.​
> ...


 


What cycle is this?


----------



## electures (Oct 23, 2008)

mcclary's electrical said:


> What cycle is this?


Based on the 2008 NEC.


----------



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

electures said:


> Based on the 2008 NEC.


 
I thought so, mines not worded that way. WE're on '05


----------



## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

electures said:


> I have a 3/4 HP 120V 1ph pool pump motor. Is a 3 ft #14 flexible cord with a "W" rating code compliant for the line cord?


You answered your own question with the correct information. Now read it. 



electures said:


> The flexible cord shall have a copper equipment grounding conductor sized in accordance with 250.122 but not smaller than 12 AWG.
> 
> Therefore a #14 awg line cord is compliant.


No it is not.


----------



## electures (Oct 23, 2008)

electricmanscott said:


> You answered your own question with the correct information. Now read it.
> 
> 
> 
> No it is not.


Thank you for pointing out one of the biggest problems we as electricians have. That being failure to read *all* the relevant code articles. I posted articles 680.7(B) *and* 680.21(A)(5) to illustrate what appears to be a conflict in the NEC. NEC 680.(7)(B) is in the General section of Section 680 while 680.21(A)(5) is located in the Permenatly Installed Pools section. 680.21(A)(5) takes precedence over 680.(7)(B). #14 is compliant.

Now read the *entire* post.


----------



## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

electures said:


> Thank you for pointing out one of the biggest problems we as electricians have. That being failure to read *all* the relevant code articles. I posted articles 680.7(C) *and* 680.21(A)(5) to illustrate what appears to be a conflict in the NEC. NEC 680.(7) is in the General section of Section 680 while 680.21(A)(5) is located in the Permenatly Installed Pools section. 680.21(A)(5) takes precedence over 680.(7). #14 is compliant.
> 
> Now read the *entire* post.


Too much to type but in a nutshell 680.7(B) and 608.21(A)(1) mandate a #12 egc.


----------



## electures (Oct 23, 2008)

electricmanscott said:


> Too much to type but in a nutshell 680.7(B) and 608.21(A)(1) mandate a #12 egc.


680.21 Motors.
(A) Wiring Methods. The wiring to a pool motor shall
comply with (A)(1) *unless modified for specific circumstances
by* (A)(2), (A)(3), (A)(4), or *(A)(5).*

(A)(1) General. *The branch circuits for pool-associated motors*
shall be installed in rigid metal conduit, intermediate
metal conduit, rigid polyvinyl chloride conduit, reinforced
thermosetting resin conduit, or Type MC cable listed for the
location. Other wiring methods and materials shall be permitted
in specific locations or applications as covered in
this section. Any wiring method employed shall contain an
insulated copper equipment grounding conductor sized in
accordance with 250.122 but not smaller than 12 AWG.

680.21(A) Covers wiring methods in (A)(1) unless *modified by (A)(5).*
680.21(A)(1) covers the branch circuits.
680.21*(A)(5)* covers pool associated motors. Ex. pump motors, pool cover motors. 

That includes the pump motor.

680.21(5) Cord-and-Plug Connections. *Pool-associated motors
shall be permitted to employ cord-and-plug connections.*
The flexible cord shall not exceed 900 mm *(3 ft) in length*.
The flexible cord shall include an *equipment grounding
conductor sized in accordance with 250.122* and shall terminate
in a grounding-type attachment plug.

No where does 680.21(A)(5) require a #12.

Again I stand by my statement and backed up with code sections.


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

electures said:


> No where does 680.21(A)(5) require a #12.
> 
> Again I stand by my statement and backed up with code sections.


You can stand by your statement but I have to disagree with it. 680.21(A)(1) is the general rule unless modified by the others. You said nowhere does (A)(5) say it needs #12 egc but it doesn't need to since (A)(1) is the general rule. Now if it said #14 egc is okay then it would modify the rule. I think you are off on this one.


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

I will go one step further. In NEC 2011 they have specifically stated not smaller than #12. You must have created quite a stink on these matters since both items you mentioned have been clarified. The intent was #12 egc no matter what you think. 




> (5) Cord-and-Plug Connections. Pool-associated motors shall be permitted to employ cord-and-plug connections. The flexible cord shall not exceed 900 mm (3 ft) in length. The flexible cord shall include a copper equipment grounding conductor sized in accordance with 250.122 *but not smaller than 12 AWG*. The cord shall terminate in a grounding-type attachment plug.


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

electures said:


> 680.21 Motors.
> (A) Wiring Methods. The wiring to a pool motor shall
> comply with (A)(1) *unless modified for specific circumstances*
> *by* (A)(2), (A)(3), (A)(4), or *(A)(5).*
> ...


 
Read the comments on page 1034 2008 NEC HANDBOOK #12 IS required


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> Read the comments on page 1034 2008 NEC HANDBOOK #12 IS required


The handbook is not code-- however the 2011 NEC did clear it up for those who were confused.


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> The handbook is not code-- however the 2011 NEC did clear it up for those who were confused.


Thanks Dennis .

Do you have the 2011 NEC PDF?. If so, is there a way to copy and paste?


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> Thanks Dennis .
> 
> Do you have the 2011 NEC PDF?. If so, is there a way to copy and paste?


Yes I do, you can copy and paste from the pdf but sometimes it comes out very small so I paste in word and copy and paste from there. A bit of a hassle -- the cd was much better.


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Yes I do, you can copy and paste from the pdf but sometimes it comes out very small so I paste in word and copy and paste from there. A bit of a hassle -- the cd was much better.


Thanks dennis I hope they hurry up and get the 2011 NEC Handbook CD
on the market.


----------



## electures (Oct 23, 2008)

Dennis Alwon said:


> You can stand by your statement but I have to disagree with it. 680.21(A)(1) is the general rule unless modified by the others. You said nowhere does (A)(5) say it needs #12 egc but it doesn't need to since (A)(1) is the general rule. Now if it said #14 egc is okay then it would modify the rule. I think you are off on this one.


680.21(A)(1) addresses the *branch circuit*. It states that in the first sentence.

Article 100 Definitions reads;


*Branch Circuit. 
*The circuit conductors between the final
overcurrent device protecting the circuit and the *outlet*(s).

*Outlet. *​*
*​*
*A point on the wiring system at which current is
taken to supply utilization equipment.

*Utilization Equipment. *​*
*​*
*Equipment that utilizes electric
energy for electronic, electromechanical, chemical, heating,​lighting, or similar purposes.

The branch circuit ends at the receptacle outlet. The flexible cord is part of the utilization equipment and is addressed by 680.21(A)(5). The equipment grounding conductor shall be #12 green to the receptacle outlet. The EGC in the flexible cord shall be sized per 250.122. There is no minimum size EGC for the flexible cord per 680.21(A)(5).

Wether or not you agree or disagree with me is your perogative. However, if you disagree, please explain what 680.21(A)(5) does cover.

AS for the 2011 NEC, it has not been adopted here in The Great Police State of New Jersey, and sighting it as a reference for arguing this point is irrelevent. When it is adopted I will start teaching this subject based on its requirments. As of today the 2008 NEC is what is required to be enforced here in TGPSofNJ.

Kevin
​​​​​


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

electures said:


> AS for the 2011 NEC, it has not been adopted here in The Great Police State of New Jersey, and sighting it as a reference for arguing this point is irrelevent. When it is adopted I will start teaching this subject based on its requirments. As of today the 2008 NEC is what is required to be enforced.
> [/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]


It does not matter whether the great state of NJ ever accepts the 2011. The fact remains that it is a definite clarification of how that section of the code should be interpreted.

Knowing this information and continuing to teach what you thought to be code is a total injustice to the students you educate. At this point you are just protecting what you taught and you should, IMO, give it up.


----------



## electures (Oct 23, 2008)

Dennis Alwon said:


> It does not matter whether the great state of NJ ever accepts the 2011. The fact remains that it is a definite clarification of how that section of the code should be interpreted.
> 
> Knowing this information and continuing to teach what you thought to be code is a total injustice to the students you educate. At this point you are just protecting what you taught and you should, IMO, give it up.


I am only teaching what is written in the NEC in black and white. I sighted all the code sections to back it up. Electricians fail to read, or misinterpret all relevant code sections everyday. You are entitled to your opinion.


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

electures said:


> I am only teaching what is written in the NEC in black and white. I sighted all the code sections to back it up. Electricians fail to read, or misinterpret all relevant code sections everyday. You are entitled to your opinion.


I agree that some of the sections you are talking about are not black and white. It seems you read it differently then most of us and that's fine. My point is that what you sighted are codes that, IMO, can be interpreted in different ways. They were not clear and now that you know what the NEC had in mind I believe you should teach that to your students not the way you believe it was meant to be.

I love playing with the words of the code. However, I have never ever seen a standard pool pump installed on more than a 20 amp breaker. Certainly very large pools etc have larger pumps but for the most part a standard 120 or 240 pump runs fine at 20 amps. To suggest using a 35 amp breaker to avoid using a GFCI is, IMO, bad advice.


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Another way to look at is this. If there was a person who could make a formal interpretation of every article in the book and he/she said that you were interpreting a section incorrectly, would you continue to teach it your way because that they way you read it or would you start teaching it the way it was meant to be.

I am not saying that you are evil and taught it wrong all these years. I am just saying now that you know what the NEC wants what do you do?


----------



## acrwc10 (Jan 28, 2007)

680.21(A)(1) say's minimum #12. "unless modified by 680.21(A)(5)"
680.21(A)(5). refers you 250.122
250.122(A) sends you to table 250.122 there you size the EGC based on the OCPD. So a 20amp would be 12cu and a 15amp would be 14cu, then you go back to 250.122 and you get to 250.122(E) on cords.
250.122(E) states in part "and shall not be smaller than the circuit conductors." so now you have a few ways of looking at this, first how many amps is the branch circuit? IMO, the cord is not the circuit. So if it is a 20amp circuit you must use a #12 egc in the cord.
Second way of looking at this is, if the OCPD is 15amp a #14egc in the cord would be acceptible.
Third way, Is this a factory installed cord? If so and it is listed, your good to go.
Fourth way, if field installed, what is the inspector going to call,(right or wrong) the cost between 3ft of #12 cord over #14 cord is so small it isn't worth arguing, as you most likely won't win that fight, because the building official is the final word and most will back up what the field inspector calls, unless they are way off base.


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

If a motor came without a cord why would one even bother to install a cord. I would direct wire it in a heartbeat. Sure it is easy to change out if it is cord and plug but, IMO, more that can go wrong.


----------



## acrwc10 (Jan 28, 2007)

Dennis Alwon said:


> If a motor came without a cord why would one even bother to install a cord. I would direct wire it in a heartbeat. Sure it is easy to change out if it is cord and plug but, IMO, more that can go wrong.


That is basically not the question, the question is there is a cord and what size should the egc in it be. I agree whith you though, it would not even cross my mind to put a cord onto a pool equipment motor. Too many things can go wrong with it, all the crap that winds up on and around the pool equipment a cord won't do well in the long term.


----------



## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

My pool motor get unplugged and put away every fall. It would suck if it didn't have a cord.


----------



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

electricmanscott said:


> My pool motor get unplugged and put away every fall. It would suck if it didn't have a cord.


I just through my pool away and buy new one in the spring.


----------



## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> I just through my pool away and buy new one in the spring.


That's because your a very fancy man.


----------



## acrwc10 (Jan 28, 2007)

electricmanscott said:


> My pool motor get unplugged and put away every fall. It would suck if it didn't have a cord.


Do you fold up the pool too?


----------



## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

acrwc10 said:


> Do you fold up the pool too?


No. It's an above ground pool partially buried. Motor, heater, filter and associated equipment gets put in the basement. Pool water is lowered and it is covered.


----------

