# Double Pole AFCI's



## Rockyd (Apr 22, 2007)

Sorry about the graphics, the table didn't cut and paste to clean....


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

This is old news but what brand are you talking about. I know GE uses two single pole breakers, and a few others make them but I would still prefer not to use a dp afci. When there is a problem 2 circuits go out instead of one.


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

What do they cost? Might be cheaper to just run two circuits.


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## Rockyd (Apr 22, 2007)

Cutler Hammer.

If you can use three wire, and the breaker doesn't have any issues, I'd pull a 14/3 or 12/3 anytime over a bunch of singles.

More competitive on pricing, and less labor. 

I'm normally not a residential guy, but want to be smart before I open my mouth and say "sure" either way. street cred, plus book cred = a good thing:thumbup:


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

I know a lot of residential guys and none seem to be interested in using DP AFCI. I don't blame them. I believe they cost more then 2 sp afci also.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

The double-pole AFCI's (independent trip version) are good for up-selling retrofits and remodeling jobs where repurposing existing 3-wire home runs may be needed.


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## Rockyd (Apr 22, 2007)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I know a lot of residential guys and none seem to be interested in using DP AFCI. I don't blame them. I believe they cost more then 2 sp afci also.


 
Do they do it because the cost of the breaker, or the question of the breaker doing everything it claims? Cutler Hammer lead the way in GFCI and AFCI if memory serves me correctly, just a little gun shy; short of going out and mocking the thing up to see if it works on the short term. 

Seems like there would be a good deal of work saved anytime you can pull a 3 wire multi-branch, vs two single runs. Labor savings in dollars was what I was considering.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Rockyd said:


> Do they do it because the cost of the breaker, or the question of the breaker doing everything it claims? Cutler Hammer lead the way in GFCI and AFCI if memory serves me correctly, just a little gun shy; short of going out and mocking the thing up to see if it works on the short term.
> 
> Seems like there would be a good deal of work saved anytime you can pull a 3 wire multi-branch, vs two single runs. Labor savings in dollars was what I was considering.


CH had lots of problems with its afci years ago. The only brand that hasn't had problems that I know of is GE. 

I think the idea of running a mwbc and the issues with both circuits tripping is the issue. Marc says they are independent trip- I have not seen those.

GE uses 2 sp afci breakers with handle ties.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I think the idea of running a mwbc and the issues with both circuits tripping is the issue. Marc says they are independent trip- I have not seen those.


I only have experience with Cutler Hammer's 2-pole AFCI's, and they offer them in a common trip and in an independent trip version. Depends on which one you buy. I can't speak about any other brands. I will say that I'd never use a 2-pole AFCI on purpose in new construction. They're too expensive (150 bucks, if memory serves). They're more of a curiosity for tough situations.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> They're too expensive (150 bucks, if memory serves).


I would only use them in a retro if I had to. GE came up with a great solution as it only cost as much as two sp afci and a handle tie-- $70-$80.


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## Rockyd (Apr 22, 2007)

Dennis Alwon said:


> CH had lots of problems with its afci years ago. The only brand that hasn't had problems that I know of is GE.
> 
> I think the idea of running a mwbc and the issues with both circuits tripping is the issue. Marc says they are independent trip- I have not seen those.
> 
> GE uses 2 sp afci breakers with handle ties.


That is my fear, breaker nusiance issues. All it takes is one person with a new $400G house saying "oh ya the electrician from so & so's, said it would be a smart way to go, wouldn't turn that guy loose to do ..."

Thinking there is a lot more smart electrician's around the country, that have already been through the issue, and would like to gather their knowledge, :whistling2::thumbsup: so that I can make the right call if I have to do any houses this season.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Roger123 said:


> What do they cost? Might be cheaper to just run two circuits.


They have two pole murrys AFCI'S at "HD" the last time i bought one they were $79 ...


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## Rockyd (Apr 22, 2007)

Well that makes life easy...I didn't realize they were as high as they were in cost on the shelf, Nor was I totally keen on the down side potential if there is any kind of problem after initial construction.

As a novelty to try and save an ugly situation, or a remod? I could see taking a chance over butchering more than minimum.

Thanks for all the inputs from everyone!

Like to hear from anyone who has good, bad, or indifferent luck with C H, or any brand (Thanks Harry:thumbup like the GE that were mentioned. Can't know if it's not asked....:whistling2:...


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

HARRY304E said:


> They have two pole murrys AFCI'S at "HD" the last time i bought one they were $79 ...


 
Thanks Harry,


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Roger123 said:


> Thanks Harry,


 As the years go by the AFCI's will get better with less tripping..


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

Roger123 said:


> What do they cost? Might be cheaper to just run two circuits.



I paid $100 a few years back for a two pole AFCI breaker.


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## bauler (Jan 2, 2008)

Last time I checked Square-D didn't make them. Do they now? The only time I would need them are panel replacement/upgrades. Have to check the Murrays.


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## mgraw (Jan 14, 2011)

Sq D recommends not using MWBCs in residential. They recommend using 14/2/2 or 12/2/2 to pull two circuits. They also say they are not going to manufacture 2 pole AFCIs until there is a retrofit market for them. When will that be is the question.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

I don't think the breakers referenced in the op are combo type which makes them useless for anything other than expensive paper weights.


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## Rockyd (Apr 22, 2007)

electricmanscott said:


> I don't think the breakers referenced in the op are combo type which makes them useless for anything other than expensive paper weights.


 
They are combo type. That was why I was asking about anyone's personal experience. Culter Hammer rules here in Alaska for a lot of bigger gear (MCC's, Switchgear), thought I'd ask what people have discovered in the spot where" technology meets reality". 

Sounds like the technology is a little fickle with radio stations at times, but that the Manufacturer has that covered too:thumbsup:


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Rockyd said:


> They are combo type. That was why I was asking about anyone's personal experience. Culter Hammer rules here in Alaska for a lot of bigger gear (MCC's, Switchgear), thought I'd ask what people have discovered in the spot where" technology meets reality".
> 
> Sounds like the technology is a little fickle with radio stations at times, but that the Manufacturer has that covered too:thumbsup:


The model numbers listed in the original post are not combo type arc fault breakers. Combos have a "c" in the number. CH115CAF is a single pole 15 amp combo arc fault.


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## Teaspoon (Jan 10, 2009)

I would Perfer running 2 seperate circuits.Can't really see such a big savings,
using 12/3 and a multi wire branch circuit.
Don't like 2 circuits shareing the same neutral.It may be legal. But is it right?


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## Rockyd (Apr 22, 2007)

Teaspoon said:


> I would Perfer running 2 seperate circuits.Can't really see such a big savings,
> using 12/3 and a multi wire branch circuit.
> Don't like* 2 circuits shareing the same neutral.It may be legal. But is it right?*


That is the crux of the matter...If they can, and do, perform flawlessly, then I'm all for it:thumbsup:...Should it turn out to be a headache, and worse, would hope that the information gleaned by others in the industry would share how it went...

Technology is great, but I would like to learn from others mistakes, as well as their successes:thumbup::thumbsup:

Great part about the forum...there are more hours of experiance here in one night, than I have in my 30+ years of doing electrical work!


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