# Dishwasher Outlet under Sink GFCI?



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Sometimes, where is the sink located?


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Not in a kitchen


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## watts77 (Dec 3, 2010)

Don't know. I've never done it on a switched recept for a disposal.


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*kitchen*

YEah. It's in kitchen under sink. It's one of those new bosch dishwashers with a plug cord and some sort of intermediary jbox then receptacle. All in SO type cord.


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*plug*

Here. This one. 

http://www.bosch-home.com/us/produc...recessed-handle/SHE9ER55UC.html?source=browse


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

I have to... Are you an electrician?


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*ok*

Good start 

1 for NO. 

It's actually about 4" from the water drain? You know how those can leak...:whistling2:


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Cletis said:


> Good start
> 
> 1 for NO.
> 
> It's actually about 4" from the water drain? You know how those can leak...:whistling2:


Thanks you don't need to count my No-- my feelings wont get hurt. The thing is you already knew the answer.


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*?*



leland said:


> Better question: Where is the outlet located?
> 
> NO. Under a sink is not within reach. or near a water source.
> 
> ...


ACtually, it is within reach (about 2 sec to get to) and it is inches from a water source and directly below sink


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## 220wire (Aug 18, 2008)

Its Dedicated equipment and as long as its a single recep not a duplex what's the biggie? If the plumbing leaks tell em to call a plumber


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

Cletis said:


> Good start
> 
> 1 for NO.
> 
> It's actually about 4" from the water drain? You know how those can leak...:whistling2:



Ya, so? 4" or 1/8" from the drain. whats that got to do with anything?

Under the sink- 'fly be free'.:thumbup: (code wise).


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

In that case I offer my sincerest apology to both Leland and Cletis.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Cletis said:


> Is an outlet under sink (within 6ft rule) to be used to plug in a bosch dishwasher have to be gfci ?


:no:



> 210.8 Ground-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection for
> Personnel. Ground-fault circuit-interruption for personnel
> shall be provided as required in 210.8(A) through (C). The
> ground-fault circuit-interrupter shall be installed in a
> readily accessible location.





> 210.8(A)(6) Kitchens— where the receptacles are installed to serve the countertop surfaces.
> (7) Sinks — located in areas other than kitchens where
> receptacles are installed within 1.8 m (6 ft) of the outside
> edge of the sink





> Article 100 .Accessible, Readily (Readily Accessible). Capable of being reached quickly for operation, renewal, or inspections
> without requiring those to whom ready access is requisite
> to climb over or remove obstacles or to resort to portable
> ladders, and so forth.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

macmikeman said:


> In that case I offer my sincerest apology to both Leland and Cletis.


Is your back sore from all that snow shoveling today....?:blink::laughing:


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*Readily*



HARRY304E said:


> :no:


It is readily. My inspector says if he can get to it in under 3 seconds it 's readily. What if they put nothing under sink?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

210.8(A)(6) Kitchens— where the receptacles are installed _*to serve the countertop surfaces.*
_ 







​


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Cletis said:


> It is readily. My inspector says if he can get to it in under 3 seconds it 's readily. What if they put nothing under sink?


Take your hammer and brake his knee cap and he won't be able to bend over and reach it in the 3 second time limit.....:laughing:


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Here is Mr. Holt on the subject: http://ecmweb.com/nec/code-basics/electric_code_basics_3/


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*?*



480sparky said:


> 210.8(A)(6) Kitchens— where the receptacles are installed _*to serve the countertop surfaces.*
> _
> 
> 
> ...


What about a poor little outlet at 18" off floor in kitchen then ? :001_huh:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Cletis said:


> What about a poor little outlet at 18" off floor in kitchen then ? :001_huh:


Does it serve the c'top?


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Cletis said:


> What if they put nothing under sink?


I'll bet you could go to 20 houses open the door for under the sink and there will be so much stuff you won't be able to find the outlet..:whistling2:


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*noNE*



480sparky said:


> Does it serve the c'top?


No. Just like say a receptacle low just in front of cabinet. by the kickguard. 2ft below countertop lip ?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Cletis said:


> No. ..........


Then it doesn't need to be GFCI'd........... at least not in a resi kitchen. 210.52(C)(5) exc.


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

Cletis said:


> It is readily. My inspector says if he can get to it in under 3 seconds it 's readily. What if they put nothing under sink?



I could do or for that matter anyone I know or you could do any number of hings that could be electrically unsafe in 3 seconds.

I'm thumbing through the book now....... wait....... some more.......oops here it iiii.... nope.... still looking....

Nope,I don't see any reference to time frames in my book.
But it is old, I got it in January 2011.:no::no:


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*?*



leland said:


> I could do or for that matter anyone I know or you could do any number of hings that could be electrically unsafe in 3 seconds.
> 
> I'm thumbing through the book now....... wait....... some more.......oops here it iiii.... nope.... still looking....
> 
> ...


My inspector say's it's "Inferred" and up to him for judgement call. He says what's to stop someone from plugging in a battery charger or other devices down there. He says 3 seconds...that's his rule


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Cletis said:


> My inspector say's it's "Inferred" and up to him for judgement call. He says what's to stop someone from plugging in a battery charger or other devices down there. He says 3 seconds...that's his rule


Ask for:

1. His substantiation. If the Code is in error, it is his duty to submit a proposal to correct the NFPA.

2. A copy of the legal proceedings of the AHJ where the '3-second' rule was formally adopted and set into place. Inspectors cannot legally just make rules up.


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*G*

He told me it's another grey area so he can make judegment call and I have to deal with him for another 10yrs or so....:whistling2:


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Cletis said:


> He told me it's another grey area so he can make judegment call and I have to deal with him for another 10yrs or so....:whistling2:


Smash him in the face with a code book. Opened to the appropriate code section of course. :thumbup: Inspector dumbass!


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Cletis said:


> He told me it's another grey area so he can make judegment call and I have to deal with him for another 10yrs or so....:whistling2:


Then talk to the AHJ. 

You know...... the ones who make the rules and not those who just enforce them.


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## MasterE (Dec 31, 2011)

cletis said:


> is an outlet under sink (within 6ft rule) to be used to plug in a bosch dishwasher have to be gfci ?


nec 422.16(2)


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

You should gfci every receptacle in the house, along with an arc fault for every circuit. EMT, no rigid pipe everything.


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## iJuke (Jan 27, 2011)

if the recep is in the kitchen under the sink you do Not have to GFCI IT! It's not countertop space...


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

MasterE said:


> nec 422.16(2)


and exhibit 422.1.....


as a rule, i always run a 12-3 HR under any kitchen sink, _especially_ in those higher end kitchens



dishwashers, trash comapactors, and disposals are usually _less_ than lotto friendly


and few panels are _within sight_ of a kitchen

~CS~


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

chicken steve said:


> ...........and few panels are _within sight_ of a kitchen
> 
> ~CS~


And that makes a difference because.........? :001_huh:


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

chicken steve said:


> as a rule, i always run a 12-3 HR under any kitchen sink, _especially_ in those higher end kitchens, dishwashers, trash comapactors, and disposals are usually _less_ than lotto friendly


Here is something that has given me time for thought. When a manufacturer asks for an individual branch cir, or a dedicated circuit are they asking for a dedicated 2 wire cir- no MWBC? Technically an individual circuit, I am told and I believe, cannot be a circuit from a MWBC as the neutral is shared and changes the meaning of individual.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Here is something that has given me time for thought. When a manufacturer asks for an individual branch cir, or a dedicated circuit are they asking for a dedicated 2 wire cir- no MWBC? Technically an individual circuit, I am told and I believe, cannot be a circuit from a MWBC as the neutral is shared and changes the meaning of individual.



*210.4 Multiwire Branch Circuits.
(A) General. *Branch circuits recognized by this article shall be permitted as multiwire circuits. A multiwire circuit shall be permitted to be considered as multiple circuits. All conductors of a multiwire branch circuit shall originate from the same panelboard or similar distribution equipment.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Here is something that has given me time for thought. When a manufacturer asks for an individual branch cir, or a dedicated circuit are they asking for a dedicated 2 wire cir- no MWBC? Technically an individual circuit, I am told and I believe, cannot be a circuit from a MWBC as the neutral is shared and changes the meaning of individual.


This is how inspectors make up wacky violations!  :laughing:


I can't think of any appliances that have manufacturer "required" individual branch circuits. I usually see the manufacturers "recommend" an individual branch circuit. Which btw is nothing more than cya or engineer specs for them. There is no reason an appliance that draws maybe 8 amps needs it's own circuit.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Here is something that has given me time for thought. When a manufacturer asks for an individual branch cir, or a dedicated circuit are they asking for a dedicated 2 wire cir- no MWBC? Technically an individual circuit, I am told and I believe, cannot be a circuit from a MWBC as the neutral is shared and changes the meaning of individual.


IMO a MWBC can serve an individual branch circuit.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

480sparky said:


> And that makes a difference because.........? :001_huh:


disco within sight of a motor 480

~CS~


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Here is something that has given me time for thought. When a manufacturer asks for an individual branch cir, or a dedicated circuit are they asking for a dedicated 2 wire cir- no MWBC? Technically an individual circuit, I am told and I believe, cannot be a circuit from a MWBC as the neutral is shared and changes the meaning of individual.


 
good Q Denny

~CS~


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

chicken steve said:


> disco within sight of a motor 480
> 
> ~CS~


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Cletis said:


> Is an outlet under sink (within 6ft rule) to be used to plug in a bosch dishwasher have to be gfci ?


This is not necessarily an answer to your question but why would you not just install a gfci in that location?


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## iJuke (Jan 27, 2011)

14/3 HR to duplex recep under kitchen sink w/broken tab on the hot recep terminal
14/2 sw loop to single pole sw...(disposal cord connected to switched recep on duplex recep)
Dishwasher cord plugged into the hot recep on duplex recep under the sink

If dishwasher is located farther away...

14/3 HR to sw box above the countertop
- 14/2 down to recep under sink
- 14/2 from sw box above countertop to dishwasher
Splice.... Duplex recep is switched & dishwasher is hot
Breaker lock on dishwasher CB

For bigger appliances the wire size may be adjusted. Ex: 12/3


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

480sparky said:


>


 
read what i wrote 480......~CS~


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

RIVETER said:


> This is not necessarily an answer to your question but why would you not just install a gfci in that location?


Would you?


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## 19kilosparky984 (Sep 14, 2011)

RIVETER said:


> This is not necessarily an answer to your question but why would you not just install a gfci in that location?


Every post you make just further shows you have no clue


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

RIVETER said:


> This is not necessarily an answer to your question but why would you not just install a gfci in that location?


Because it's not required.


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## NoSparkSparky (Mar 5, 2012)

almost always we install the disposal /dishwasher plug under the sink, a 12-3 to the plug (break tab), 12-2 SL for disposal........ but uh ohhh new code, neutral in a switch box!

no gfci as its dedicated

Im gonna hate life when they start enforcing that nonsense on us here.... ruin all my 3ways and such


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## iJuke (Jan 27, 2011)

NoSparkSparky said:


> almost always we install the disposal /dishwasher plug under the sink, a 12-3 to the plug (break tab), 12-2 SL for disposal........ but uh ohhh new code, neutral in a switch box!
> 
> no gfci as its dedicated
> 
> Im gonna hate life when they start enforcing that nonsense on us here.... ruin all my 3ways and such


I agree, Wisconsin has not adopted this yet but when we do oh boy...


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

NoSparkSparky said:


> almost always we install the disposal /dishwasher plug under the sink, a 12-3 to the plug (break tab), 12-2 SL for disposal........ but uh ohhh new code, neutral in a switch box!
> 14/3 is less expensive :thumbup:
> no gfci as its dedicated
> 
> ...


....................


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## NoSparkSparky (Mar 5, 2012)

Well we run 20a circuts for all kitchen stuff (everyone I know does this, and I have mentioned that many times we dont need too, but every electrician ive known has simply given the answer "thats how I like to do kitchens")

Even a fridge, which if you have ever measured one with a clamp, they draw very little.

so whatever, doesnt matter anyhow

a lil cheaper, but even the big boss man likes it this way, and he's usually trying to cheap out on lots of stuff.


As for it being gfci... yes, dedicated does have something to do with it. Id imagine if you just had a plug under the sink that wasnt for equipment they'd call you on it, if they knew it wasnt dedicated.

Ive been forced to put gfci's in computer cubby desk areas, simply because they were considered part of the kitchen, even though they were far from any water.

In fact its code nowadays, if its a kitchen, and its not dedicated. IT HAS to be gfci, even if its very far from the water.

exempt are things like microwaves, fridges, disposal, dishwasher, etc.. because they are dedicated

As for neutral in the switchbox;.... yes its a big deal to me. Plenty of times I run dead end 3ways (or other imaginative 3ways/4ways), or stuff like SL for the disposal... I find it annoying to have to put a neutral in the box... when really its not a safety issue, in fact it says right in the code its for lighting controls.... but you know i could have swore the original intent of the NEC was to provide safety not to sell products


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

> but you know i could have swore the original intent of the NEC was to provide safety not to sell products


oh how the mighty have fallen.....~CS~


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## EMeis1114 (Mar 5, 2011)

NoSparkSparky said:


> almost always we install the disposal /dishwasher plug under the sink, a 12-3 to the plug (break tab), 12-2 SL for disposal........ but uh ohhh new code, neutral in a switch box!
> 
> no gfci as its dedicated
> 
> Im gonna hate life when they start enforcing that nonsense on us here.... ruin all my 3ways and such


Check out the exceptions. It's really not as limiting as one might think.


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## NoSparkSparky (Mar 5, 2012)

EMeis1114 said:


> Check out the exceptions. It's really not as limiting as one might think.


In Resi work it is, sure if Im doing commercial and have a pipe that I could pull a neut through, cool... but when roping a resi job... Ive talked to inspectors about it, even if I had a really easy fish to the box.. its still a no go on a rough... Although inspectors are not enforcing this code -yet-, Ive taken to just making sure I have a neut in my boxes so I get in practice, and hopefully never get called on it... but this thread reminded me I have still been doing my dish/disposal without a neut 

I hate doing boring three ways.. Over the years I have come up with some really fun 3way/4way ideas(yes legal)  most of them do not have neuts in one or more location.


if only my boss would buy 14-2-2 and 12-2-2


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## EMeis1114 (Mar 5, 2011)

NoSparkSparky said:


> Well we run 20a circuts for all kitchen stuff (everyone I know does this, and I have mentioned that many times we dont need too, but every electrician ive known has simply given the answer "thats how I like to do kitchens")
> 
> Even a fridge, which if you have ever measured one with a clamp, they draw very little.
> 
> ...


It can be a safety issue in an environment where there is a lot of motion sensors(ie office building or factory). Older motion sensors use the ground as the neutral to power the display, so about 5mA returns to ground. If enough are on a circuit you can get a lot of juice returning to ground. You could be working on a safe, locked out circuit and get nailed by interrupting the continuity of the grounding conductor.


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## Theriot (Aug 27, 2011)

Wow Dennis I don't think he cares about your no


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## NoSparkSparky (Mar 5, 2012)

EMeis1114 said:


> It can be a safety issue in an environment where there is a lot of motion sensors(ie office building or factory). Older motion sensors use the ground as the neutral to power the display, so about 5mA returns to ground. If enough are on a circuit you can get a lot of juice returning to ground. You could be working on a safe, locked out circuit and get nailed by interrupting the continuity of the grounding conductor.



Ok thats the first time Ive heard anythign close resembling a safety issue.

Thanks! Seriously....... EVEN THOUGH WE ALL KNOW that this whole neut in a box is not about safety its about product placement.. but thanks for actually giving a possible(although I consider unlikely) real life situation where this could happen!


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

NoSparkSparky said:


> Well we run 20a circuts for all kitchen stuff (everyone I know does this, and I have mentioned that many times we dont need too, but every electrician ive known has simply given the answer "thats how I like to do kitchens")
> 
> Even a fridge, which if you have ever measured one with a clamp, they draw very little.
> 
> ...



The neutral issue is no biggie for those of us who are dealing with it. I do agree with the fact that it is a BS rule to keep the manufacturers happy.

As for the rest... What kind of kitchen are you talking about? I'm going to assume you are talking about commercial kitchens not residential which would make some of your statement correct.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

EMeis1114 said:


> It can be a safety issue in an environment where there is a lot of motion sensors(ie office building or factory). Older motion sensors use the ground as the neutral to power the display, so about 5mA returns to ground. If enough are on a circuit you can get a lot of juice returning to ground. You could be working on a safe, locked out circuit and get nailed by interrupting the continuity of the grounding conductor.


How does requiring a neutral in new installations correct this problem?


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## Oakey (Feb 16, 2009)

I only put a GFI under the sink if there is a batch fed garbage disposal, just something I like to do.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

electricmanscott said:


> How does requiring a neutral in new installations correct this problem?


Because the new code requirement was a deal made between the NFPA and UL.

The only way UL would agree to change the listing standards for these types of switches is if this new neutral requirement was put into the code.


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## NoSparkSparky (Mar 5, 2012)

electricmanscott said:


> How does requiring a neutral in new installations correct this problem?


not that i posted it, but it really doesnt... it doesnt correct old situations. I took it as a grasping at straws to find something sorta answer 

We all know its to push products,.... says right in the code book. Was told by inspectors, who normally around here enforce **** right away... and they are letting it slide for a while


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## NoSparkSparky (Mar 5, 2012)

electricmanscott said:


> The neutral issue is no biggie for those of us who are dealing with it. I do agree with the fact that it is a BS rule to keep the manufacturers happy.
> 
> As for the rest... What kind of kitchen are you talking about? I'm going to assume you are talking about commercial kitchens not residential which would make some of your statement correct.




I was mostly refering to resi kitchens... what is not correct that i was talking about? Could of swore I just looked this up recently... oh wait.. actually it wasnt even a real kitchen.. but it was a commercial prep area.. everything except dedicated equipment had to be gfci

however in resi kitchens, where there is often a computer nook, ive had to put gfci in even though its miles away from water, and its not even a prep area. However I have never had to gfci a fridge micro disposal dishwasher, etc... I suppose if the micro was on the counter it would have to have a gfci, but we always have a dedicated place for them.


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## AFOREMA1 (Nov 23, 2009)

NoSparkSparky said:


> I was mostly refering to resi kitchens... what is not correct that i was talking about? Could of swore I just looked this up recently... oh wait.. actually it wasnt even a real kitchen.. but it was a commercial prep area.. everything except dedicated equipment had to be gfci
> 
> however in resi kitchens, where there is often a computer nook, ive had to put gfci in even though its miles away from water, and its not even a prep area. However I have never had to gfci a fridge micro disposal dishwasher, etc... I suppose if the micro was on the counter it would have to have a gfci, but we always have a dedicated place for them.


The plugs at the computer area are usually above the computer counter area so yes they are required to be gfci protected like all kitchen counter top outlets as code says they must.


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## EMeis1114 (Mar 5, 2011)

electricmanscott said:


> How does requiring a neutral in new installations correct this problem?


UL laboratories and the NEC came to agreement that the UL would start requiring manufacturers to have a neutral on most devices that use energy(ie motion sensors) and the NEC implemented 404.2(c). Otherwise it would not be feasible for the UL to require a neutral on certain devices because there wouldn't be many places that they would be usable and people would end up tying the ground and neutral together, which doesn't solve any issues of objectionable current on the grounding conductor.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

My replies in red....



NoSparkSparky said:


> Well we run 20a circuts for all kitchen stuff (everyone I know does this, and I have mentioned that many times we dont need too, but every electrician ive known has simply given the answer "thats how I like to do kitchens")
> 
> Even a fridge, which if you have ever measured one with a clamp, they draw very little.
> 
> ...


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

EMeis1114 said:


> UL laboratories and the NEC came to agreement that the UL would start requiring manufacturers to have a neutral on most devices that use energy(ie motion sensors) and the NEC implemented 404.2(c). Otherwise it would not be feasible for the UL to require a neutral on certain devices because there wouldn't be many places that they would be usable and people would end up tying the ground and neutral together, which doesn't solve any issues of objectionable current on the grounding conductor.


What an asinine way of thinking.


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*?*

BTW. This thread was a joke. sorry


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Cletis said:


> BTW. This thread was a joke. sorry


No kidding. You should tell us when a thread you start is NOT a joke. :laughing:


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## NoSparkSparky (Mar 5, 2012)

electricmanscott said:


> My replies in red....



I agree with you on the 15a circut, unfortuantly habits are hard to break, and everyone in my company runs 20a... whatever Im sure the bid ammount covers it 

Inspectors are hard to break too.. Ive had plugs that were not on a counter top in a kitchen, and had to gfi them, wether I thought it was right or not.

And yes I was wrong about the code... although I do think (without looking it up) I am right in a commercial kitchen setting (yes? no? swore thats why i said this, cuz i was working in a commercial kitchen and had to look it up, however i didnt look it up for resi)

As for it being dedicated... well isnt that what it is? Its for a specific appliance, aolthough you are right I never put in a dedicated plug. Just a regular duplex. Although I assumed because the appliance was in front of it, and the circut was specifically for that appliance, (imo making it dedicated) thats why it wasnt gfi?

Because as I said inspectors have had me gfi a receptical not on a counter top... and the plug was far enough from water... but you know how often that happens in a kitchen? pretty rare. I just mentioned the computer cubby because we do those all the time. However right in that its a countertop situation


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## k2x (May 20, 2008)

> Even a fridge, which if you have ever measured one with a clamp, they draw very little


A fridge can draw 8 to 10 amps on the defrost cycle which uses a heater.


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