# Quick question about apprenticeship.



## ohiosparky99 (Nov 12, 2009)

i think you have to belong for 5 years to be vested in your retirement, what do you mean by leaving?? if going into a different field totally i would still pay my dues


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## Charlie K (Aug 14, 2008)

Chevyman30571 said:


> Say a person goes through the entire program and then after graduation wants to leave the union. How long does a person have to stay in the union without being penalized for leaving? Because my union now adopted a new program where now if you decide to leave prior to graduating the program you owe them back for the schooling. Which i agree with. But I was just curious if there was a amount of time you had to stay in the union after you graduated to leave and possibly go for your licence.


Something like that will vary from local to local. Check with the JATC.

Charlie


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## Chevyman30571 (Jan 30, 2009)

No I mean say I wanted to leave totally and get my license and start my own business. Or I guess I could also shelve my card also right?


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## 2phase5wire (Jan 9, 2011)

Chevyman30571 said:


> No I mean say I wanted to leave totally and get my license and start my own business. Or I guess I could also shelve my card also right?



Your own business as a non union EC? If so prepared to be sued.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

2phase5wire said:


> Your own business as a non union EC? If so prepared to be sued.



Is it spelled out in the program how long you have to stay union if they paid for your schooling?


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## mikeh32 (Feb 16, 2009)

for me being a c card. its only 4 years, and i owe 4 years


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## sparks134 (Jan 30, 2009)

mikeh32 said:


> for me being a c card. its only 4 years, and i owe 4 years


Yep, you owe them 5 years after you topout as an A- card in 134.


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## 2phase5wire (Jan 9, 2011)

jwjrw said:


> Is it spelled out in the program how long you have to stay union if they paid for your schooling?


each local is different. Here it is five years. Think about it, you enter an organization that trains you, bargains for you, and employs you.

The program cost the membership about 20k here. Now your gonna take that training and use against them?? You will get sued and lose. Unless of course you can prove that they cannot provide reasonable employment, which unfortunately is the norm in a lot of places.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

2phase5wire said:


> each local is different. Here it is five years. Think about it, you enter an organization that trains you, bargains for you, and employs you.
> 
> The program cost the membership about 20k here. Now your gonna take that training and use against them?? You will get sued and lose. Unless of course you can prove that they cannot provide reasonable employment, which unfortunately is the norm in a lot of places.



I knew it probably was spelled out somewhere. I just thought the OP would of been told the rules before he joined the program.


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

If the OP meets all the requirements he signed up for and then pulled out and started a successful non-union shop, the local can try to sue him, but they won't have a leg to stand on.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Why wouldn't you open a union shop, if it is good enough for you why not your employees?


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

knowshorts said:


> If the OP meets all the requirements he signed up for and then pulled out and started a successful non-union shop, the local can try to sue him, but they won't have a leg to stand on.


 When an apprentice gets into the program they sign on the line in essence is a contract.Here in Southern California there is a case where a member had only been a JW for 3 years and was caught working nonunion, to which he was asked to SALT, he declined so a $20,000 suit was filed. I agree with Brian why not try a union shop? Whats the worse that could happen lose a few dollars in the process of creating employment for a few Brothers and Sisters who in turn will be productive enough for your shop to flourish. If JATC pays for 5 years of school it is my understanding they are owed the same in employment before the threat of suit no longer exist.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Brother Noah said:


> If JATC pays for 5 years of school it is my understanding they are owed the same in employment before the threat of suit no longer exist.


The often touted FREE EDUCATION is not really free, it is free to the apprentice with stipulations and paid for by others.

There are no free lunches.


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

Noah, I said if he met his requirements. The NJATC doesn't pay for the education, the members and the state do.


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## jusme123 (Dec 27, 2010)

brian john said:


> Why wouldn't you open a union shop, if it is good enough for you why not your employees?


it does take quite a bit of money


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## 2phase5wire (Jan 9, 2011)

jwjrw said:


> I knew it probably was spelled out somewhere. I just thought the OP would of been told the rules before he joined the program.


He did. OR like a lot of union brats he wasn't paying attention when the JATC director explained this very carefully to him BEFORE he signed the contract.



knowshorts said:


> If the OP meets all the requirements he signed up for and then pulled out and started a successful non-union shop, the local can try to sue him, but they won't have a leg to stand on.


Go away you have no clue what your talking about.



brian john said:


> Why wouldn't you open a union shop, if it is good enough for you why not your employees?


Duh, it's obvious. He's a greedy douche bag who's only out for himself.



brian john said:


> The often touted FREE EDUCATION is not really free, it is free to the apprentice with stipulations and paid for by others.
> 
> There are no free lunches.


Exactly. It's like your dad GIVING you a car when your 16. He didn't really give it to you, you earned it by meeting the criteria your father set. (living up to your responsibility)


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

2phase5wire said:


> Duh, it's obvious. He's a greedy douche bag who's only out for himself.


Sounds like the making of a fine electrical contractor to me.


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

2phase5wire said:


> Go away you have no clue what your talking about.


If the requirements of the OP to repay his apprenticeship are to stay a journeyman for 5 years and contribute back into the apprenticeship fund, and he does this, then how can the local sue him (and win) for starting up a non union shop?


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## aarons600rr (Apr 7, 2007)

Our is every year u go to school u have to work a year after u graduate but there are always exceptions( especially in this economy)


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

aarons600rr said:


> Our is every year u go to school u have to work a year after u graduate but there are always exceptions( especially in this economy)


Aaron this is not your cell phone, you are allowed to spell full words, there are no limits on text.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

knowshorts said:


> If the requirements of the OP to repay his apprenticeship are to stay a journeyman for 5 years and contribute back into the apprenticeship fund, and he does this, then how can the local sue him (and win) for starting up a non union shop?


This must vary (like everything else) local to local, I have never heard of any members being sued here. Though the few union members I know that opened non-union shops were quite a few years out of their apprenticeship.


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## aarons600rr (Apr 7, 2007)

brian john said:


> Aaron this is not your cell phone, you are allowed to spell full words, there are no limits on text.


Haha I am actually on my cell phone tho lol


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

knowshorts said:


> Noah, I said if he met his requirements. The NJATC doesn't pay for the education, the members and the state do.


 Okay, if part of those requirements would be not to work in contrast to the IBEW for 5 years. Knowshorts if you know our system then you realize that within our contracts along with NECA and our assessments we also receive government assistance(with a required 51% minority enrollment)
I am happy to help sponsor our future journeymen, yet if they in turn use the tools and or education against the IBEW I am for pursuing a suit against those said persons.This is just unethical, for someone to except education and employment from a source only to go in direct opposition once their education is finished.Greed eats at the core of a persons soul, hence we should have the morals to refuse its entry.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Brother Noah said:


> Greed eats at the core of a persons soul, hence we should have the morals to refuse its entry.


Greed is good, greed is what makes things happen.

Greed is what motivates many ... including the workers in the trenches.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Brother Noah said:


> I am happy to help sponsor our future journeymen, yet if they in turn use the tools and or education against the IBEW I am for pursuing a suit against those said persons.This is just unethical, for someone to except education and employment from a source only to go in direct opposition once their education is finished..


Personally I would go union, BUT if he satisfies all requirements for repayment, it is his free will and choice to choose his options.

The education is a two way street, we do provide it, but the knowledge is in his head.

I NEVER condemn a man for trying to better himself as long as he does it legally.


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## running dummy (Mar 19, 2009)

brian john said:


> This must vary (like everything else) local to local, I have never heard of any members being sued here. Though the few union members I know that opened non-union shops were quite a few years out of their apprenticeship.


 
Yes, the way that it works by me (N. Illinois) is you must stay and work in the local the amount of years you were in school. This is a loan agreement each apprentice must sign when they are inducted and has strong legal backing. The only time this can happen is if the person leaves the union to go do another electrically related job. If they decide they want to be a garbage man then we can't really do much.

Also, if any member is caught doing "side jobs", they are going to be fined an amount determined by the board for what they feel a Union shop would have made. I don't believe this has much legal backing but if the member wants to return to a "member in good standing" with the union then he will pay.

This has happened, and is currently happening, in my local. Obviously they only catch the people doing bigger jobs and normally the member just flips them the bird and walks away.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

BBQ said:


> Greed is good, greed is what makes things happen.
> 
> Greed is what motivates many ... including the workers in the trenches.


Not all instances listed below are driven by greed but many are

Greed is what drives a union to strike or have a work slow down causing great discomfort to many often in peak times for the need of that union.

Greed is what makes sane men trash open shop men. simply for wanting to support their families in a way THEY choose.

Greed is what drives men to trash fellow IBEW members (CE/CW), for wanting to TRY to get ahead.

Greed is what happens when workers steal be it, time, copper or material.

Greed is why some men do side work.

Just because a man has a blue collar does not mean they are free from the need for greed. A union by design is all about greed (among other issues) for a organized group.


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

brian john said:


> Not all instances listed below are driven by greed but many are
> 
> Greed is what drives a union to strike or have a work slow down causing great discomfort to many often in peak times for the need of that union.
> 
> ...


 Brian while I agree with some of your post, other articles could be considered just the opposite.Here we go again with the dreaded strike(which hardly exist anymore) In some cases the union has went on strike for COST OF LIVING INCREASE, but in other strike ridden cases such as the air traffic controllers, that was over seniority and SAFETY(1 blip to many and screen goes blank, they requested updated equipment) and Reagan fired them.I only guess that if a group of persons wanted to get paid a good salary and benefits for their labor in a safe manner for all, it is deemed for greed by some. The unions have taught me to do a good job for the contractor so they can make capital gains, do my job safely,help those in need(young take care of the old and healthy take care of the sick) Brian it makes me wonder exactly what training you had within the union to form the idea that it is by design about greed?
The ce/cw issue is an entire story in its self.
As far as a union person trashing another, I say this would be more of a case of insecurities of that person than greed(do not understand your logic)I agree with your statement they are merely trying to earn a living not only because they choose but have no other opportunity to do otherwise.


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

Brother Noah said:


> assessments we also receive government assistance(*with a required 51% minority enrollment*)


WHAT?!

Now that's a crutch I can live with. :chinese:


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Frasbee said:


> WHAT?!
> 
> Now that's a crutch I can live with. :chinese:



And here I thought you were a filthy Canadian all that time.....:laughing:


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

jwjrw said:


> And here I thought you were a filthy Canadian all that time.....:laughing:


Philadelphia, Canada??

Actually turns out, there's a Philadelphia in Mississippi.

When I was down in Jackson, MS people would ask where I was from, I had to specify the _real_ Philadelphia.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Frasbee said:


> Philadelphia, Canada??
> 
> Actually turns out, there's a Philadelphia in Mississippi.
> 
> When I was down in Jackson, MS people would ask where I was from, I had to specify the _real_ Philadelphia.



I was J/K.

I truly had no clue you were Asian until you told me the other day.


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

jwjrw said:


> I was J/K.
> 
> I truly had no clue you were Asian until you told me the other day.


Yeah it's hard to tell when I'm not typing with this keyboard.











Or use these kind of emoticons


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Frasbee said:


> Yeah it's hard to tell when I'm not typing with this keyboard.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yea you would never realize I was a white guy from NC by reading my posts....:whistling2::laughing:


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

jwjrw said:


> Yea you would never realize I was a white guy from NC by reading my posts....:whistling2::laughing:


WTF?!? I thought only the brothers fried up bologne sandwiches!

You had me going this whole time. All the talk of grilling and going to different women's houses had me fooled!


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Brother Noah said:


> Greed eats at the core of a persons soul, hence we should have the morals to refuse its entry.


While on the subject of greed, how about that other deadly sin, SLOTH?

Is it not sinful to refuse to return to work until the unemployment has completely dried up?


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## Mulder (Sep 11, 2010)

Brother Noah said:


> Brian while I agree with some of your post, other articles could be considered just the opposite.Here we go again with the dreaded strike(which hardly exist anymore) In some cases the union has went on strike for COST OF LIVING INCREASE, but in other strike ridden cases such as the air traffic controllers, that was over seniority and SAFETY(1 blip to many and screen goes blank, they requested updated equipment) and Reagan fired them.I only guess that if a group of persons wanted to get paid a good salary and benefits for their labor in a safe manner for all, it is deemed for greed by some. The unions have taught me to do a good job for the contractor so they can make capital gains, do my job safely,help those in need(young take care of the old and healthy take care of the sick) Brian it makes me wonder exactly what training you had within the union to form the idea that it is by design about greed?
> The ce/cw issue is an entire story in its self.
> As far as a union person trashing another, I say this would be more of a case of insecurities of that person than greed(do not understand your logic)I agree with your statement they are merely trying to earn a living not only because they choose but have no other opportunity to do otherwise.


If the company is non-union it's greed, but if they are union they are seeking "capital gains". That sounds like bulls**t to me.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Mulder said:


> If the company is non-union it's greed, but if they are union they are seeking "capital gains". That sounds like bulls**t to me.


But do you expect anything different. If I promote it, it is the word, if anyone else stands against me it is BS.


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

Mulder said:


> If the company is non-union it's greed, but if they are union they are seeking "capital gains". That sounds like bulls**t to me.


 You know some where along the way the truth gets twisted. A person has signed a contract with a said entity(no matter whom it is) in this said agreement this person agrees to give back 5 years of truthful labor in return for the education and or employment they have been provided, but once this said person get through with their said education then they decide they want to go out and grab the quick bucks now and forgo their promise(yes I call this greed) Now on my end, when ever I have fought for equal rights or better job conditions even better pay, it is with all in mind not just the union persons.Not all in the union feel or act the same way I do yet if those naysayers would only delve a little into our history they would find we stand for the working class not just the union working class. Your 40 hour work week,OSHA,child labor laws,anti discrimination laws, sacrifices were made by others for the future to live in a better work environment.We are all trying to feed our family's and earn a living plying a trade within a sometimes corrupt industry, why do we even want the extra hassle?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Brother Noah said:


> You know some where along the way the truth gets twisted. A person has signed a contract with a said entity(no matter whom it is) in this said agreement this person agrees to give back 5 years of truthful labor in return for the education and or employment they have been provided, but once this said person get through with their said education then they decide they want to go out and grab the quick bucks now and forgo their promise(yes I call this greed) Now on my end, when ever I have fought for equal rights or better job conditions even better pay, it is with all in mind not just the union persons.Not all in the union feel or act the same way I do yet if those naysayers would only delve a little into our history they would find we stand for the working class not just the union working class. Your 40 hour work week,OSHA,child labor laws,anti discrimination laws, sacrifices were made by others for the future to live in a better work environment.We are all trying to feed our family's and earn a living plying a trade within a sometimes corrupt industry, why do we even want the extra hassle?


 
Noah, no one (I THINK) disputes the union has helped the plight of the workers but somewhere along the line this has been subverted.

And companies greedy or not said F-OSHA, F-labor laws, F-the hassles we have to put up with and scooted to somewhere off shore.

The industry is no more corrupt than the workers as in everything in life there is good and bad spread equally.

A bit off subject but I could not believe I heard this.

I heard a homeless advocate tout the homeless as gods children the TRUE 
PURE HUMANS, and entrepreneurs as evil forces keeping the homeless down.


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