# I have permission to salt



## Nom Deplume (Jul 21, 2013)

So the local is slow and you think salting open shops is a good way to get work for the union?
Salting is a low life deceptive practice that just shows that the union doesn't want to play fair in business.

Is it the locals intentions to recruit more members to sit on the bench?


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## jimmy21 (Mar 31, 2012)

Nom Deplume said:


> So the local is slow and you think salting open shops is a good way to get work for the union?
> Salting is a low life deceptive practice that just shows that the union doesn't want to play fair in business.
> 
> Is it the locals intentions to recruit more members to sit on the bench?


i disagree. My intention is to do high quality work for a non union shop and earn a fair paycheck while doing so. If youve had experiences where the salts had other intentions, thats on them.


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## AK_sparky (Aug 13, 2013)

jimmy21 said:


> i disagree. My intention is to do high quality work for a non union shop and earn a fair paycheck while doing so. If youve had experiences where the salts had other intentions, thats on them.


Umm, look at the first line on this article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_(union_organizing)


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

jimmy21 said:


> i disagree. My intention is to do high quality work for a non union shop and earn a fair paycheck while doing so. If youve had experiences where the salts had other intentions, thats on them.


I think what he was saying was that, suppose you are so successful at salting the open shop, that you turn enough of them to get the NLRB to force a vote. So all their guys vote to be union, only to find out that there's no work until next winter. How does that work in a positive way for them. 

I think that's what he was saying, if not, I stand corrected.


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## jimmy21 (Mar 31, 2012)

AK_sparky said:


> Umm, look at the first line on this article:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_(union_organizing)


the union organizers have different reasons for letting or encouraging people to salt, but they want us to be professional, do quality work, and earn our paycheck. We are not required to talk to anyone. They said that some people are very open about the union and will talk to anyone that want to listen and thats fine. They said other people don't talk about it at all and they said thats fine as well. Bottom line is im out to earn a paycheck for my family like anyone else


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## Magoo5150 (Mar 1, 2007)

You would not be salting if your only intent was to earn a paycheck and feed your family. The intent of salting is to recruit. Good luck. You may find a job/career and not want to go back.


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## Nom Deplume (Jul 21, 2013)

If your intentions are honorable, then why do you feel the need to deceive the open shop contractors during the hiring process?
Working for an open shop while being a card caring member of a local is against the union rules and to have the local sanction salting only means that they are trying to underhandly turn a shop union.

Why don't you be upfront with the prospected targets and let then know that you are trying to turn them union since your local can't compete fairly?

Using the unions own words, "that's our work".


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## ampman (Apr 2, 2009)

If you came to my open shop looking for work (salting) I would tell you to go get ****ed


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## Phatstax (Feb 16, 2014)

Have you considered traveling for work instead of salting? There are many locals right now having a hard time filling calls. You can meet a lot of great people and learn new techniques to hone your skills when you bring people from different parts of the country together.


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

ampman said:


> If you came to my open shop looking for work (salting) I would tell you to go get ****ed


Maybe a baseball bat upside the head.

I have very limited knowledge of salting but the few open shops I work for that were salted left the owners wanting to kill someone. They CLAIM to have missing tools, broken tools and basically trouble makers. In the 70's I worked for a company that was salted and the guy was a douche bag, did nothing but stir up trouble and he was fired, then tried to claim he was discharged for no reason.

Myself I would not do this, seems a scummy low life move.

And a good way to get your azz beat.


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## jimmy21 (Mar 31, 2012)

Magoo5150 said:


> You would not be salting if your only intent was to earn a paycheck and feed your family. The intent of salting is to recruit. Good luck. You may find a job/career and not want to go back.


My main goal is to earn a paycheck. If I can change some peoples minds about union hands and the IBEW while doing that, thats fine as well.



Nom Deplume said:


> If your intentions are honorable, then why do you feel the need to deceive the open shop contractors during the hiring process?
> Working for an open shop while being a card caring member of a local is against the union rules and to have the local sanction salting only means that they are trying to underhandly turn a shop union.
> 
> Why don't you be upfront with the prospected targets and let then know that you are trying to turn them union since your local can't compete fairly?
> ...



where did i say that i was trying to deceive anyone? I said im feeling lost about filling out a resume and searching for jobs. Its not something union guys are used to doing. The same as if you guys joined the union and were traveling the country signing books, youd probably feel a little lost the first time

Also, our local competes just fine. For the past 3 years, non union guys have been getting organized because the union has been so busy and the non union hasn't. Now our largest customer is slow and the books are loaded up. Thats not to say that the books aren't moving at all, but being at the very back, i have a long time to wait



ampman said:


> If you came to my open shop looking for work (salting) I would tell you to go get ****ed


 you sound like a delightful person 



Phatstax said:


> Have you considered traveling for work instead of salting? There are many locals right now having a hard time filling calls. You can meet a lot of great people and learn new techniques to hone your skills when you bring people from different parts of the country together.


i probably will go up to Seattle, Everett or Tacoma if i cant find work locally. I hear all 3 are pretty well booming






So i take it, nobody here is interested in actually helping me with anything other than arguing over whether salting is ethical?


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Seems like a pile of imaginary stories about salts - don't forget all of us union electricians are lazy and feckless and would never try to convince a contractor that hiring quality labor at predictable costs with the ease of on demand man power might have any benefit.

You are much better off traveling though...drop down out of Oregon and check in with the upper CA locals. At a minimum you won't have to deal with all the prejudice and ignorant malice. Your local should have a line on what other area locals are busy.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

jimmy21 said:


> So i take it, nobody here is interested in actually helping me with anything other than arguing over whether salting is ethical?


All you do is apply for work, list your experience using the contractors you have worked for and if anyone asks, be honest, say you are a union electrician and the local is slow. 

Most folks won't hire you due to fear that as soon as the local gets busy, you will leave, however if any are willing to hire you then go and do the very best work you can. Don't chat about unions while you are working...but be willing to chat after work or offsite.

Make the contractor money and do everything you can to put yourself and by extension, your local in a good light. Be pleasant and productive.

Best of luck.


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## jimmy21 (Mar 31, 2012)

Bad Electrician said:


> Maybe a baseball bat upside the head.
> 
> I have very limited knowledge of salting but the few open shops I work for that were salted left the owners wanting to kill someone. They CLAIM to have missing tools, broken tools and basically trouble makers. In the 70's I worked for a company that was salted and the guy was a douche bag, did nothing but stir up trouble and he was fired, then tried to claim he was discharged for no reason.
> 
> ...



i try to keep an open mind. My theory is that the union gets to organize the guys that couldn't make a living in open shops because they were worthless. The non union shops get the guys applying which couldn't stay employed with union shops, because they were slugs. This is why each side thinks so lowly of the other side. Believe me, there are all types in the union. Ive worked with some really talented, honest, hard working individuals. Ive also worked with some lazy slugs that i felt were also completely incompetent. There is also, everything in between....... Just like in the rest of life and im sure the same way as in open shops. Ive worked with lots of organized guys and the majority of them didn't belong doing electrical work


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## Phatstax (Feb 16, 2014)

Good luck to you whatever you decide to do. Sounds like you're in a good area to find a job.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Bad Electrician said:


> I have very limited knowledge of salting ....
> 
> Myself I would not do this, seems a scummy low life move.
> 
> And a good way to get your azz beat.


I mean no offense but if you have very limited knowledge then what do you base your allegations upon?

I have heard all sorts of wretched tales of non union backstabbing and flat out abuse but they are stories and just repeating them would bring forth all sorts of ( justified ) complaint. 

I know a guy who heard from his hairdresser is hardly worthy of retelling.


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## jimmy21 (Mar 31, 2012)

eejack said:


> Seems like a pile of imaginary stories about salts - don't forget all of us union electricians are lazy and feckless and would never try to convince a contractor that hiring quality labor at predictable costs with the ease of on demand man power might have any benefit.


Like i said, i worked one other job as a salt (but i was referred by a friend and didn't do much of an application process.) I watched the connex pull out of the parking lot on the last day, helped sweep up the parking lot where the lay down was and the contractor bought us lunch and tried to convince me to leave the union and join him as a permanent employee......... Seemed like he was pretty upset about being salted. 



eejack said:


> You are much better off traveling though...drop down out of Oregon and check in with the upper CA locals. At a minimum you won't have to deal with all the prejudice and ignorant malice. Your local should have a line on what other area locals are busy.


I'll probably head up to washington. Its much closer for me and i think its pretty much a walk through. I don't really want to travel at this time. Im trying to help my wife get our home daycare off the ground. We just had our first kid sign up today


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## walkerj (May 13, 2007)

eejack said:


> Seems like a pile of imaginary stories about salts - don't forget all of us union electricians are lazy and feckless and would never try to convince a contractor that hiring quality labor at predictable costs with the ease of on demand man power might have any benefit. You are much better off traveling though...drop down out of Oregon and check in with the upper CA locals. At a minimum you won't have to deal with all the prejudice and ignorant malice. Your local should have a line on what other area locals are busy.


 On demand man power. What if the local is busy along with the other locals nearby and no travelers signing the books? What then? I am honestly just curious as I don't know the answer. I have been salted and it wasn't that bad but the 'tool list'deal was a pain in the ass along with the 9 o'clock break deal which has at this point spread like aids.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

I think we all know what salting is. When things are booming, it's fair play, no matter which side of the fence you are on. I don't see the benefit when things are slow (I'm going back to the OP here). If he's just going out working off the grid, maybe they should come up with another word for it, like "feeding your family" or "slugging" or something. Working, being a professional, doing your trade, collecting a check, doing your job proud ---- not salting IMO. just my 02. I will now remove my rat ass from the thread. thanks gents.


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

While I agree that non-union guys seem to have a bit too much to say about the union threads, especially when many times they really don't know the whole story and don't want to hear anything other than what they have already made up their minds to believe, I ask nicely again to stop with the RAT business. Its the absolute worst word any union man can use if he wishes to portray himself as a true professional.

If we ever want to recruit members we certainly won't do it calling them RATS!!!


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## Magoo5150 (Mar 1, 2007)

Rollie73 said:


> While I agree that non-union guys seem to have a bit too much to say about the union threads, especially when many times they really don't know the whole story and don't want to hear anything other than what they have already made up their minds to believe, I ask nicely again to stop with the RAT business. Its the absolute worst word any union man can use if he wishes to portray himself as a true professional.
> 
> If we ever want to recruit members we certainly won't do it calling them RATS!!!


Thank you. I have never been union and have no desire to be but stooping low enough to resort to name calling just shows the ignorance an individual has. I have no problem with someone wanting to be union. That is their choice. I have always felt that the best negotiator for my career is myself. I really feel the IBEW does some good things. I don't know if they still do but years ago they held their membership to a fairly high level of skill through regular training. Its not us against them, or at least it shouldn't be. Well I think I'll go get me a piece of cheese. Thats what us rats do best, Right?


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

walkerj said:


> On demand man power. What if the local is busy along with the other locals nearby and no travelers signing the books? What then? I am honestly just curious as I don't know the answer. I have been salted and it wasn't that bad but the 'tool list'deal was a pain in the ass along with the 9 o'clock break deal which has at this point spread like aids.


It is rare that it happens but essentially there is a clause that allows a contractor to pull in non union off the street manpower if the local hiring hall cannot provide manpower in a timely fashion.

Most locals will move heaven and earth to prevent it from getting that far.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Nom Deplume said:


> I know exactly what I am talking about. I have worked for companies that have been salted by scumbag union spies sneaking in and trying to stir up trouble and recruit so they can get a vote.


No, you have not. You are making it up. Name a contractor, heck, name a second. No way you have 40+ years of experience.


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## ampman (Apr 2, 2009)

jimmy21 said:


> Like i said, i worked one other job as a salt (but i was referred by a friend and didn't do much of an application process.) I watched the connex pull out of the parking lot on the last day, helped sweep up the parking lot where the lay down was and the contractor bought us lunch and tried to convince me to leave the union and join him as a permanent employee......... Seemed like he was pretty upset about being salted.
> 
> 
> I'll probably head up to washington. Its much closer for me and i think its pretty much a walk through. I don't really want to travel at this time. Im trying to help my wife get our home daycare off the ground. We just had our first kid sign up today


Did you pay for Union help to get your daycare up and ready also is your wife going to pay Union wages to her help


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## jimmy21 (Mar 31, 2012)

eejack said:


> It is rare that it happens but essentially there is a clause that allows a contractor to pull in non union off the street manpower if the local hiring hall cannot provide manpower in a timely fashion.
> 
> Most locals will move heaven and earth to prevent it from getting that far.



Our local had a some guys go out off book 4 last year. Most locals don't have work on the scale of our intel campus here though. When they are busy it seems like it empties the whole work force from the whole northwest


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

ampman said:


> Did you pay for Union help to get your daycare up and ready also is your wife going to pay Union wages to her help


That is as goofy as saying you can only use non union products Ampman.

( so forget electricity, gasoline, diesel fuel...:laughing: )


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

jrannis said:


> You have no idea what you are talking about so maybe you should stay out of the union topics section and keep your rat trap shut and let the big boys talk.


Keep talking and reinforce the stereotype that a lot of us have of the union. Thank goodness there's a number of union guys on here that have class.


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## jimmy21 (Mar 31, 2012)

ampman said:


> Did you pay for Union help to get your daycare up and ready also is your wife going to pay Union wages to her help


I haven't hired anyone to help yet..... that's all nights and weekends.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

Magoo5150 said:


> Thank you. I have never been union and have no desire to be but stooping low enough to resort to name calling just shows the ignorance an individual has. I have no problem with someone wanting to be union. That is their choice. I have always felt that the best negotiator for my career is myself. I really feel the IBEW does some good things. I don't know if they still do but years ago they held their membership to a fairly high level of skill through regular training. Its not us against them, or at least it shouldn't be. Well I think I'll go get me a piece of cheese. Thats what us rats do best, Right?


Can I send you some Wisconsin Cheese? I you're going to be a rat, you might as well eat the best!!!:laughing:


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

eejack said:


> I mean no offense but if you have very limited knowledge then what do you base your allegations upon?
> 
> I have heard all sorts of wretched tales of non union backstabbing and flat out abuse but they are stories and just repeating them would bring forth all sorts of ( justified ) complaint.
> 
> I know a guy who heard from his hairdresser is hardly worthy of retelling.


My limited knowledge and one experience were all negative, not imaginary pie in the sky Union Heaven that you live in.:laughing::laughing:

I see good and bad in union and I say the same about open shop. You only live in the world of union is perfect and open shop sucks. That is ok but do not assume everyone that bases an opposing opinion is a liar, POS or whatever you feel is worth boosting your opinion.

I think anyone that salts is looking for trouble. Let open shop guys do their thing and if the union has the work take his men. Get the best of the best open shop workers and leave the rest where they are.


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

If the unions want to increase membership they should send out a letter to each licensed professional and have them sign up with the local, that will suck up all the open shop labour and the open shops would have to call the hall to get the manpower.

There are 32,500 licensed Electricians in my state, if the Union invited all of them in, the open shops would be forced to call the hall for labour.

All those electricians cannot be replaced overnight it would take many years to do so....But---But---But Don't try anything new, keep doing it the old way, where men's lives are put on the line, by salting, and creating animosity and hate between both sides....


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## Magoo5150 (Mar 1, 2007)

ampman said:


> Did you pay for Union help to get your daycare up and ready also is your wife going to pay Union wages to her help


Ive always wondered this about the die hard union guys. Do they only shop at stores that utilize union employees. Im sure in just about every profession there is a union that represents a portion of these people. Are we passionate enough about being union that we search these people out? I doubt it. Since the Teamsters are backing landscapers, am I gonna pay union wages for a teamster or just pay the teenager down the road to mow my lawn? Ha.


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## ampman (Apr 2, 2009)

eejack said:


> That is as goofy as saying you can only use non union products Ampman.
> 
> ( so forget electricity, gasoline, diesel fuel...:laughing: )


Live by the union only buy Union products oh wait then you would be flat broke


jimmy21 said:


> I haven't hired anyone to help yet..... that's all nights and weekends.


So your taking the money out of a needy Union employee


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

jimmy21 said:


> My main goal is to earn a paycheck. If I can change some peoples minds about union hands and the IBEW while doing that, thats fine as well.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Now I have to question everything you say. They might make better money, but as a rule, I don't think they stay busier. At least not up here.


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## Magoo5150 (Mar 1, 2007)

wendon said:


> Can I send you some Wisconsin Cheese? I you're going to be a rat, you might as well eat the best!!!:laughing:


Sounds great!!!


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## ampman (Apr 2, 2009)

Magoo5150 said:


> Ive always wondered this about the die hard union guys. Do they only shop at stores that utilize union employees. Im sure in just about every profession there is a union that represents a portion of these people. Are we passionate enough about being union that we search these people out? I doubt it. Since the Teamsters are backing landscapers, am I gonna pay union wages for a teamster or just pay the teenager down the road to mow my lawn? Ha.


Union employees are the first to hire non Union help for their own needs , union labor is great as long as you're not the one paying for it


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

Magoo5150 said:


> Thank you. I have never been union and have no desire to be but stooping low enough to resort to name calling just shows the ignorance an individual has. I have no problem with someone wanting to be union. That is their choice. I have always felt that the best negotiator for my career is myself. I really feel the IBEW does some good things. I don't know if they still do but years ago they held their membership to a fairly high level of skill through regular training. Its not us against them, or at least it shouldn't be. Well I think I'll go get me a piece of cheese. Thats what us rats do best, Right?


I for one will always respect your choice to stay non-union. If you feel you can negotiate a fair compensation package for yourself that you are happy with and your employer is happy with......if you are being treated fairly and with respect and your career is on the path you wish to be on then THAT is right. Just because I am a union man, certainly doesn't give me the right to tell you that you're wrong in any way.
IBEW still does hold the union workers to a fairly high level of skill but there are always those will slip through the cracks and just shouldn't be electricians.......same as with an open shop.

I respect you and your opinion and I'm sure if we were to meet and work together we could teach each other a thing or two because its all of us in this trade together.....certainly not us against them.

NOW....go enjoy your cheese....:jester::laughing:



wendon said:


> Keep talking and reinforce the stereotype that a lot of us have of the union. Thank goodness there's a number of union guys on here that have class.


Thank you Wendon , for realizing that not all of us still have that Neanderthal attitude.:thumbsup:


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

ampman said:


> Did you pay for Union help to get your daycare up and ready also is your wife going to pay Union wages to her help


Yeah He should be looking to the *SEIU Local 503* for any daycare help:whistling2::laughing:


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## ampman (Apr 2, 2009)

Rollie73 said:


> I for one will always respect your choice to stay non-union. If you feel you can negotiate a fair compensation package for yourself that you are happy with and your employer is happy with......if you are being treated fairly and with respect and your career is on the path you wish to be on then THAT is right. Just because I am a union man, certainly doesn't give me the right to tell you that you're wrong in any way.
> IBEW still does hold the union workers to a fairly high level of skill but there are always those will slip through the cracks and just shouldn't be electricians.......same as with an open shop.
> 
> I respect you and your opinion and I'm sure if we were to meet and work together we could teach each other a thing or two because its all of us in this trade together.....certainly not us against them.
> ...


Damn you're alright for a union guy


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Magoo5150 said:


> Ive always wondered this about the die hard union guys. Do they only shop at stores that utilize union employees. Im sure in just about every profession there is a union that represents a portion of these people. Are we passionate enough about being union that we search these people out? I doubt it. Since the Teamsters are backing landscapers, am I gonna pay union wages for a teamster or just pay the teenager down the road to mow my lawn? Ha.


I try to whenever possible. I also try to purchase Made in US goods as well. Sometimes it is difficult because the global economy has destroyed many American industries.


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## jimmy21 (Mar 31, 2012)

wendon said:


> Now I have to question everything you say. They might make better money, but as a rule, I don't think they stay busier. At least not up here.


Different markets. Like I said, Intel runs our local. I don't know the numbers but I know at several points there were several thousand union electricians on their campus. Right now it's down to (maybe) a few hundred. Tons of non union guys have been organized in the last few years due to the work intel has had and now the open shops are hurting for man power.


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## ampman (Apr 2, 2009)

eejack said:


> I try to whenever possible. I also try to purchase Made in US goods as well. Sometimes it is difficult because the UNION has destroyed many American industries.


There fixed it for you


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

eejack said:


> I try to whenever possible. I also try to purchase Made in US goods as well. Sometimes it is difficult because the global economy has destroyed many American industries.


You walk the walk you talk the talk.:thumbsup: I give you that.


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

ampman said:


> Union employees are the first to hire non Union help for their own needs , union labor is great as long as you're not the one paying for it


I'm not saying this doesn't happen because I know it does. Lord knows I spend enough time preaching about it around our hall. We all know a hundred union carpenters who are out of work and could use some cash yet they will hire the cheapest guy they can find and don't even think about helping out another union member.

I can say, without trying to sound boastful, that everything in my own home was and will continue to be, completed by a union man or a union contractor. I do mean everything...from the top of the roof to the plumbing to the electrical, the cabinetry, the flooring, the framing and even the landscaping. My snow removal all winter is done by the same union company.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

ampman said:


> Live by the union only buy Union products oh wait then you would be flat broke.


It isn't an issue of money, it is an issue of finding products still made in America. ( many third world countries allow for all kinds of horrendous crap which keeps costs down - like dumping toxic waste into rivers or allowing toys containing lead to be shipped overseas ).

Most of the time, if I can find an american made product, I can find it union made as well.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

ampman said:


> There fixed it for you


Last I looked there were no unions on Wall Street.


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## Magoo5150 (Mar 1, 2007)

Rollie73 said:


> I for one will always respect your choice to stay non-union. If you feel you can negotiate a fair compensation package for yourself that you are happy with and your employer is happy with......if you are being treated fairly and with respect and your career is on the path you wish to be on then THAT is right. Just because I am a union man, certainly doesn't give me the right to tell you that you're wrong in any way.
> IBEW still does hold the union workers to a fairly high level of skill but there are always those will slip through the cracks and just shouldn't be electricians.......same as with an open shop.
> 
> I respect you and your opinion and I'm sure if we were to meet and work together we could teach each other a thing or two because its all of us in this trade together.....certainly not us against them.
> ...


Thank you Rollie. I think that has been the most educated and respectful comment made on this thread.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

eejack said:


> I try to whenever possible. I also try to purchase Made in US goods as well. Sometimes it is difficult because the global economy has destroyed many American industries.


I'd send you some cheese, eejack, but it wouldn't be union cheese. Might give you indigestion!! I do love my Carrharts but most of the other stuff sadly comes from elsewhere.


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## Magoo5150 (Mar 1, 2007)

eejack said:


> I try to whenever possible. I also try to purchase Made in US goods as well. Sometimes it is difficult because the global economy has destroyed many American industries.


It appears now that Made In The USA doesnt mean much. It could be assembled in the US by illegal labor, made with Chinese parts. But I try to research major purchases. I support my local farmers, but it gets harder every day.


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

I try damn hard as well to buy items made in Canada (first), Union made (second) and made in the USA (third). 

I always tried like hell to avoid the foreign built stuff but we all have to face it......there just isn't much out there that isn't manufactured overseas somewhere.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

wendon said:


> I'd send you some cheese, eejack, but it wouldn't be union cheese. Might give you indigestion!! I do love my Carrharts but most of the other stuff sadly comes from elsewhere.


I'll happily try some of that cheese.

Lately a lot of carhartt schtuff is coming out of Mexico.

I have recently gotten work clothes from union line
http://www.allusaclothing.com/Denim-Jeans-p/25305.htm
and Round House ( non union but American made for over 100 years ).
http://www.round-house.com/

I really like the quality of both and customer service from both have been excellent.


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## ampman (Apr 2, 2009)

Rollie73 said:


> I'm not saying this doesn't happen because I know it does. Lord knows I spend enough time preaching about it around our hall. We all know a hundred union carpenters who are out of work and could use some cash yet they will hire the cheapest guy they can find and don't even think about helping out another union member.
> 
> I can say, without trying to sound boastful, that everything in my own home was and will continue to be, completed by a union man or a union contractor. I do mean everything...from the top of the roof to the plumbing to the electrical, the cabinetry, the flooring, the framing and even the landscaping. My snow removal all winter is done by the same union company.


I believe you , there's just a lot of people who claim Union all the way and don't back it up like you do


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

Magoo5150 said:


> Sounds great!!!


Well, my brother is a cheese distributor!!! Do rats like the sissy stuff like Colby and Mild Cheddar or do they eat the real stuff like 10 year Cheddar, Bleu Cheese, etc.??


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

Magoo5150 said:


> It appears now that Made In The USA doesnt mean much.


Same issue here in Canada Magoo. Just because it was assembled here certainly doesn't mean it was _made_ here.


----------



## walkerj (May 13, 2007)

eejack said:


> It is rare that it happens but essentially there is a clause that allows a contractor to pull in non union off the street manpower if the local hiring hall cannot provide manpower in a timely fashion. Most locals will move heaven and earth to prevent it from getting that far.


Thanks for the response. 
I'm a guy from a RTW state so I just don't know these things. 
You know this though as I have gotten pretty heated on these Union non Union threads with you in the past.


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

eejack said:


> It isn't an issue of money, it is an issue of finding products still made in America. ( many third world countries allow for all kinds of horrendous crap which keeps costs down - like dumping toxic waste into rivers or allowing toys containing lead to be shipped overseas ).
> 
> Most of the time, if I can find an american made product, I can find it union made as well.


I was buying shirts MADE IN AMERICA, only to find out under some sort of deal all that had to be completed to get that Label was the buttons were sewn on in the USA the actual shirt was made out of the USA.

I did read somewhere Carharts are back in the USA.


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

ampman said:


> I believe you , there's just a lot of people who claim Union all the way and don't back it up like you do


You're 100% right ampman.......just remember. A real union man, hell, any real man, doesn't have to be boastful about what he is or what he supports. If he is a real man of real integrity who truly believes in himself and his values then it will shine through without him saying a thing.:thumbsup:


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## Magoo5150 (Mar 1, 2007)

wendon said:


> Well, my brother is a cheese distributor!!! Do rats like the sissy stuff like Colby and Mild Cheddar or do they eat the real stuff like 10 year Cheddar, Bleu Cheese, etc.??


Strictly Bleu Cheese for me, thanks for asking.


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## ampman (Apr 2, 2009)

Magoo5150 said:


> Strictly Bleu Cheese for me, thanks for asking.


Bleu cheese hamburgers all the way


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Bad Electrician said:


> I was buying shirts MAED IN AMERICA, only to find out under some sort of deal all that had to be completed to get that Label was the buttons were sewn on in the USA the actual shirt was made out of the USA.
> 
> I did read somewhere Carharts are back in the USA.


Yeah, it is tough to trust what is made where. The internet has made it easier in many respects to find things.

It would be very nice if Carhartt is back in the US. They are a popular brand that stands for good quality.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

eejack said:


> I'll happily try some of that cheese.
> 
> Lately a lot of carhartt schtuff is coming out of Mexico.
> 
> ...


Interesting:thumbsup:


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

Magoo5150 said:


> Strictly Bleu Cheese for me, thanks for asking.


What you need is the Marbled Bleu Cheese. Take about a ¼" slab of that on your grilled burger and you've died, and gone to Wisconsin!!!:thumbup:


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## Nom Deplume (Jul 21, 2013)

eejack said:


> No, you have not. You are making it up. Name a contractor, heck, name a second. No way you have 40+ years of experience.


How would you know I don't have 40 years in this trade? Is it that difficult to comprehend that someone can work in this trade for that long? I started when I was 15 and I am still working, now in management.

I won't be publicly stating who I have worked for union or open shop. I don't need to prove anything to you, there are people on this and MH that I have worked with and know me personally.


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## Magoo5150 (Mar 1, 2007)

Phatstax said:


> I can't believe how lame this thread has become. Why don't you guys just kiss and get it over with.


Would you rather have name calling and stating of one sided beliefs? I know what I believe and feel and I hope you do yourself. If there is anything that a person can say on an internet forum that can change your values and belief system, there must be an inherent flaw. I would think less of someone for not standing up for what they believe in if they can do it in an intellectual manner. I enjoy the banter and take nothing personally. Plus my wife probably wouldnt approve of the kissing part.


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

Magoo5150 said:


> Strictly Bleu Cheese for me, thanks for asking.


I had a Bleu Cheese wedge salad for dinner, just crumble and olive oil no dressing


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## Phatstax (Feb 16, 2014)

What happened to the conversation about salting? About it being a questionable tactic that occasionally attracts talent but also is a green light to work "non-Union" and keep your place on the book while starving out another brother who chooses not to line the pockets of the contractors who choose not to use our labor? 
Why are we not talking about the failure of our IO to protect our interests? All we get is Ampman bombing us with his fascination of gay weddings... Just sayin.


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

wendon said:


> What you need is the Marbled Bleu Cheese. Take about a ¼" slab of that on your grilled burger and you've died, and gone to Wisconsin!!!:thumbup:


I recently heard Bleu Cheese does better if NOT refrigerated, leave it on the counter for up to a week.


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

Phatstax said:


> What happened to the conversation about salting? About it being a questionable tactic that occasionally attracts talent but also is a green light to work "non-Union" and keep your place on the book while starving out another brother who chooses not to line the pockets of the contractors who choose not to use our labor?
> Why are we not talking about the failure of our IO to protect our interests? All we get is Ampman bombing us with his fascination of gay weddings... Just sayin.


Turned to Made in America and food


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

eejack said:


> I try to whenever possible. I also try to purchase Made in US goods as well. Sometimes it is difficult because the global economy has destroyed many American industries.


Good man on that.....:thumbsup:


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Nom Deplume said:


> How would you know I don't have 40 years in this trade? Is it that difficult to comprehend that someone can work in this trade for that long? I started when I was 15 and I am still working, now in management.
> 
> I won't be publicly stating who I have worked for union or open shop. I don't need to prove anything to you, there are people on this and MH that I have worked with and know me personally.


So basically you want to just make wild accusations and have folks take it on faith. No. I don't believe you. You might have 40 years in, I have family with more time in than that, but your tales of salting strain your lack of credibility.

I don't need you to prove anything to me, but if you want to spin tales don't expect them to be believed by everyone, especially those of us who know better.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Black Dog said:


> If the unions want to increase membership they should send out a letter to each licensed professional and have them sign up with the local, that will suck up all the open shop labour and the open shops would have to call the hall to get the manpower.
> 
> There are 32,500 licensed Electricians in my state, if the Union invited all of them in, the open shops would be forced to call the hall for labour.
> 
> All those electricians cannot be replaced overnight it would take many years to do so....But---But---But Don't try anything new, keep doing it the old way, where men's lives are put on the line, by salting, and creating animosity and hate between both sides....


Actually local 99 in RI did just that, I received several letters from them and they were inviting non-union electricians to come check out the union and join if they were so inclined. I disposed of both letters immediately of course, but they are trying to reach out since their membership is in decline.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Nom Deplume said:


> How would you know I don't have 40 years in this trade? Is it that difficult to comprehend that someone can work in this trade for that long? I started when I was 15 and I am still working, now in management.
> 
> I won't be publicly stating who I have worked for union or open shop. I don't need to prove anything to you, there are people on this and MH that I have worked with and know me personally.


I wouldn't put much stock in anything eejack says, he is a typical brainwashed union man as I'm sure you already figured out.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

Bad Electrician said:


> I recently heard Bleu Cheese does better if NOT refrigerated, leave it on the counter for up to a week.


Probably talking about the crumbly Bleu Cheese which is good on burgers and on salads. The Marbled Bleu is marbled together with Jack Cheese so it stays together better on your hamburger and has a distinct flavor of it's own. If you don't like the cheese as strong as regular Bleu, it might be your thing. Another thing I love is a cheese spread they make called Tangy Bleu.
A good aged Cheddar ( the kind that has the little chunks in it) is very good too!!


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

MTW said:


> I wouldn't put much stock in anything eejack says, he is a typical brainwashed union man as I'm sure you already figured out.


Easy does it Peter, easy does it........:whistling2:


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## Nom Deplume (Jul 21, 2013)

MTW said:


> I wouldn't put much stock in anything eejack says, he is a typical brainwashed union man as I'm sure you already figured out.


:laughing::laughing:


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## Phatstax (Feb 16, 2014)

Eejack ain't a bad guy. He calls it like he sees it and he has a union mentality. You guys just harass him because he has the courage to stand by his convictions. 
Most weak people lash out in an attempt to appear strong. I must say the feeble attempt by his haters is pretty amusing. As in you guys are clowns. Here to amuse me. I laugh at you. 
The lack of understanding you are being used and tossed aside like crappy Chinese tools is hilarious. 
So give eejack a break.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

Phatstax said:


> Eejack ain't a bad guy. He calls it like he sees it and he has a union mentality. You guys just harass him because he has the courage to stand by his convictions.
> Most weak people lash out in an attempt to appear strong. I must say the feeble attempt by his haters is pretty amusing. As in you guys are clowns. Here to amuse me. I laugh at you.
> The lack of understanding you are being used and tossed aside like crappy Chinese tools is hilarious.
> So give eejack a break.


Sorry Phat one, you and eejack are in two different classes........:whistling2:


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

Phatstax said:


> Eejack ain't a bad guy. He calls it like he sees it and he has a union mentality. You guys just harass him because he has the courage to stand by his convictions.
> Most weak people lash out in an attempt to appear strong. I must say the feeble attempt by his haters is pretty amusing. As in you guys are clowns. Here to amuse me. I laugh at you.
> The lack of understanding you are being used and tossed aside like crappy Chinese tools is hilarious.
> So give eejack a break.


Yes ...Double E does call it as _he_ sees it. I don't always agree with how he sees it nor always with how he presents it but all in all, he is a good guy here. I give him kudos for having the courage to speak up and stand by his convictions.

I personally don't see the point in arguing union/non-union with anybody. I am a union man because I wish to be....its what's right for me as Im sure the non-union thing is right for those other guys.

As for being used and tossed aside.......I see as much of that in the union sector as I do anywhere else. Lets be honest....it happens here too. I'm just comfortable knowing that when Im used up and tossed away......I will have a great retirement pension to soothe my sorrows.:thumbsup:


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## Phatstax (Feb 16, 2014)

I am well aware of that. And I'm good with it.


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

Phatstax said:


> Eejack ain't a bad guy. He calls it like he sees it and he has a union mentality. You guys just harass him because he has the courage to stand by his convictions.
> Most weak people lash out in an attempt to appear strong. I must say the feeble attempt by his haters is pretty amusing. As in you guys are clowns. Here to amuse me. I laugh at you.
> The lack of understanding you are being used and tossed aside like crappy Chinese tools is hilarious.
> So give eejack a break.


He is a man of conviction, and a strong union man, it just seems he would follow the devil himself over St Peter if the devil ran a union shop and Heaven was open shop.


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

To get back to the original topic. Im not a huge fan of salting but I am a proponent of organizing. Organizing done the right way.....by opening our ranks and inviting all who wish to join to come and be a part of our union while still respecting the wishes (if not the business model) of others who wish to remain open-shop.


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

Bad Electrician said:


> He is a man of conviction, and a strong union man, it just seems he would follow the devil himself over St Peter if the devil ran a union shop and Heaven was open shop.


 
:laughing::laughing: That's hilarious......Im stealing that line:laughing::laughing:


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## jimmy21 (Mar 31, 2012)

So.... anyone good with resumes?


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## Phatstax (Feb 16, 2014)

Yes selective organizing is a valuable tool, as long as we keep Ampman and wendon out. They hate us. 
I select pony boy to set up an organizing thread so we can recruit everyone but Ampman. And wendon. 
Well, maybe 

No, not wendon.


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

Not me...........there are literally hundreds of resume templates online though.


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## jimmy21 (Mar 31, 2012)

Rollie73 said:


> Not me...........there are literally hundreds of resume templates online though.


Maybe I should hire a resume company. Id have to go union though. If I went non union I'd probably get a salt and hed steal my resume or try to blame the equipment for why it's not finished yet while spending all day on break


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## Phatstax (Feb 16, 2014)

Permission to salt is an excuse to work non union. Because you have bills to pay. Because you exceeded your ability to provide. Because you think of yourself and not the brotherhood as a whole. Ampman wishes he could be just like you.


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## Phatstax (Feb 16, 2014)

Wendon too.


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## kg7879 (Feb 3, 2014)

jimmy21 said:


> So.... anyone good with resumes?


I wouldn't think you would need a resume. Just fill out an application and list your work experience on there. If they require a resume there are plenty of templates online you could follow.


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## pjholguin (May 16, 2014)

jimmy21 said:


> Our local had a some guys go out off book 4 last year. Most locals don't have work on the scale of our intel campus here though. When they are busy it seems like it empties the whole work force from the whole northwest


That is typical where Intel has a big project going.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

jimmy21 said:


> So.... anyone good with resumes?


Understandably the folks who can help you don't want to and the folks who want to help you really cannot.

I suspect however a site like this would be a good start
http://www.wisconsinjobcenter.org/publications/9433/9433.htm


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Bad Electrician said:


> He is a man of conviction, and a strong union man, it just seems he would follow the devil himself over St Peter if the devil ran a union shop and Heaven was open shop.


That makes complete sense, because I wager Saint Pete would run a fair and beneficent non union shop where the employees would not need the collective effort and Old Scratch would be just the underhanded fellow that unions were made for. :laughing:


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## Glock23gp (Mar 10, 2014)

So Jimmy I skipped thru the 10 pages of crap and arguing, so I apologize of you have already been answerd. You must be local 48 since u keep talking about Intel running the local. I find it interesting between 48 & 280 you cannot find work. I know lots in each local that have been working steady for a long time. Myself I'm still a member of 932 but have been working maint for the last 6 years. Before that I hit the road for over 2 yrs. Hit Moses Lake, Quincy then Beaumont, Tx. You should be able to call your BA and have them call all the locals in your area and find out where the books are clear. That's what I did along with talking to travelers finding out the scoop. GL whatever you decide to do.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Bad Electrician said:


> He is a man of conviction, and a strong union man, it just seems he would follow the devil himself over St Peter if the devil ran a union shop and Heaven was open shop.


I thought you only got like this when you signed the MPR check.


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## Phatstax (Feb 16, 2014)

His retirement plan probably includes the "picking up cans on the side of the road" portfolio. And maybe the "will work for food and no pension" option too.


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## ampman (Apr 2, 2009)

Wow you Union guys sure like to argue a lot how do you get any work done


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

Phatstax said:


> Yes selective organizing is a valuable tool, as long as we keep Ampman and wendon out. They hate us.
> I select pony boy to set up an organizing thread so we can recruit everyone but Ampman. And wendon.
> Well, maybe
> 
> No, not wendon.


Don't waste the phone call Phatman, they already tried calling me but I was out working. Why do you keep saying "we"? You're in a class by yourself with a few other union guys. You're the ISIS of the union religion if you know what I mean...........:whistling2:


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

Phatstax said:


> Wendon too.


What is a resume? I've never filled one out in my life. I had two jobs in 23 years before I went on my own. Both jobs I went and talked to the boss and started work about right away. Never had to give them a resume.


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## jimmy21 (Mar 31, 2012)

Glock23gp said:


> So Jimmy I skipped thru the 10 pages of crap and arguing, so I apologize of you have already been answerd. You must be local 48 since u keep talking about Intel running the local. I find it interesting between 48 & 280 you cannot find work. I know lots in each local that have been working steady for a long time. Myself I'm still a member of 932 but have been working maint for the last 6 years. Before that I hit the road for over 2 yrs. Hit Moses Lake, Quincy then Beaumont, Tx. You should be able to call your BA and have them call all the locals in your area and find out where the books are clear. That's what I did along with talking to travelers finding out the scoop. GL whatever you decide to do.



48 Is slow. There are calls here and there but I'm somewhere between 700 and 800 on the book. 280 is supposed to have a little work in Prineville but they say they doubt it will even get to book 2, let alone to the back 


On a side note, I went through my apprenticeship in 932, I wonder if I know you. You from the Newport side or coos bay side?


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## pjholguin (May 16, 2014)

jimmy21 said:


> 48 Is slow. There are calls here and there but I'm somewhere between 700 and 800 on the book. 280 is supposed to have a little work in Prineville but they say they doubt it will even get to book 2, let alone to the back
> 
> 
> On a side note, I went through my apprenticeship in 932, I wonder if I know you. You from the Newport side or coos bay side?


Wow...a little slow! How many are dispatched to Intel? What does SeaTac area look like?


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## Glock23gp (Mar 10, 2014)

Contractors in Newport can't keep up. I know one that has 2 vans sitting cause he can't find anyone decent to run it.. i did my apprenticeship in Salem. I'm a transplant living outside Newport


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Rollie73 said:


> To get back to the original topic. Im not a huge fan of salting but I am a proponent of organizing. Organizing done the right way.....by opening our ranks and inviting all who wish to join to come and be a part of our union while still respecting the wishes (if not the business model) of others who wish to remain open-shop.


I thought the reason for salting was because so many people are sitting the bench. Why would you want more?


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Nom Deplume said:


> If your intentions are honorable, then why do you feel the need to deceive the open shop contractors during the hiring process?


Why do you suspect his intentions aren't honorable?



> Working for an open shop while being a card caring member of a local is against the union rules


That's between him and his local, it has nothing to do with any open shop that isn't party to agreement.



> and to have the local sanction salting only means that they are trying to underhandly turn a shop union.


His local is suspending the rule that prohibits working for an open shop, there's nothing "underhanded" about it. There's little or no work in his jurisdiction. Makes sense. There being little or no work, it's highly unlikely an open shop would vote for union representation.



> Why don't you be upfront with the prospected targets and let then know that you are trying to turn them union since your local can't compete fairly?


Who is the prospective target? 

One of the best ways unions have in gaining membership as well as signatory contractors is by working with them and for them. That's when they find out we're worth it... when the stereotypical propoganda goes out the window.



> Using the unions own words, "that's our work".


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

sbrn33 said:


> I thought the reason for salting was because so many people are sitting the bench. Why would you want more?


 
As I said....I don't agree with salting for that biggest reason. The union only wants you to do it when there is no work and lots of bench warmers. The hall wants salting and more organized members because it equals more dues, especially if those new members are working. Working dues are more expensive.

I wold like to see all electricians organized because the sum of all the parts together, is much stronger than the individual parts. Strength through solidarity. If we were all one unit and actually stuck together instead the fighting ( this thread is a good example) and undercutting each other and de-valuing our own profession then we would stand strong.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Bad Electrician said:


> Maybe a baseball bat upside the head.
> 
> I have very limited knowledge of salting but the few open shops I work for that were salted left the owners wanting to kill someone. They CLAIM to have missing tools, broken tools and basically trouble makers. In the 70's I worked for a company that was salted and the guy was a douche bag, did nothing but stir up trouble and he was fired, then tried to claim he was discharged for no reason.
> 
> ...


That's ironic, because in the 90's for a couple years my local took on travelers, the ones I worked with and most of the others I heard about were great people. I liked working with out-of-towners so much I earned the nickname 3-way. (I wouldn't work without 2 travelers.) But there were a few troublemakers, thefts, arrests, drug use, and MIAs on large projects. 

There's all kinds everywhere, union and nonunion.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

jimmy21 said:


> i try to keep an open mind. My theory is that the union gets to organize the guys that couldn't make a living in open shops because they were worthless.


That sounds like a fairly self-aggrandizing theory.

Have you ever considered that when there's a lot of work there's jobs for everyone, and when the work suddenly drops off 50% that shops who are paying top dollar for labor cannot keep unneeded labor employed?



> The non union shops get the guys applying which couldn't stay employed with union shops, because they were slugs. This is why each side thinks so lowly of the other side. Believe me, there are all types in the union. Ive worked with some really talented, honest, hard working individuals. Ive also worked with some lazy slugs that i felt were also completely incompetent. There is also, everything in between....... Just like in the rest of life and im sure the same way as in open shops. Ive worked with lots of organized guys and the majority of them didn't belong doing electrical work


I've worked with 3rd and 4th generation union guys, organized guys, nonunion guys and I can assure you, it takes all kinds and they're everywhere.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

walkerj said:


> On demand man power. What if the local is busy along with the other locals nearby and no travelers signing the books? What then? I am honestly just curious as I don't know the answer.


Hey, if times are that good who the heII really cares what the answer is? If you're seriously asking if a local can provide unlimited skilled manpower under those circumstances, the answer would be no. Afaik most working agreements allow for a contractor to hire off the street when the local has nobody to refer. 



> I have been salted and it wasn't that bad but the 'tool list'deal was a pain in the ass


Please explain, I'm curious.



> along with the 9 o'clock break deal which has at this point spread like aids.


So, a coffee break is going to be the death of you?


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Rollie73 said:


> As I said....I don't agree with salting for that biggest reason. The union only wants you to do it when there is no work and lots of bench warmers. The hall wants salting and more organized members because it equals more dues, especially if those new members are working. Working dues are more expensive.
> 
> I wold like to see all electricians organized because the sum of all the parts together, is much stronger than the individual parts. Strength through solidarity. *If we were all one unit and actually stuck together instead the fighting *( this thread is a good example) and undercutting each other and de-valuing our own profession then we would stand strong.


So we shouldn't even have to bid jobs? They should just give us at whatever price we ask. Plus if we do not perform well who cares my brothers are behind me.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

sbrn33 said:


> So we shouldn't even have to bid jobs? They should just give us at whatever price we ask. Plus if we do not perform well who cares my brothers are behind me.


Aaah, a logical fallacy,
The slippery slope I think. 

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/pdf/LogicalFallaciesInfographic_A3.pdf


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

sbrn33 said:


> So we shouldn't even have to bid jobs? They should just give us at whatever price we ask. Plus if we do not perform well who cares my brothers are behind me.


No. What decides bidding jobs, is the ability to man, the ability to finish it on time, and the ability to make money for the awarded project. The price you ask depends on your profit margin. If you want to retire off of a couple of guys profit margin and your men having no benefits, I guess that is your choice. If guys don't perform they don't work. Neca units are labor units used on both sides of the fence. Bro.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

cl219um said:


> No. What decides bidding jobs, is the ability to man, the ability to finish it on time, and the ability to make money for the awarded project. The price you ask depends on your profit margin. If you want to retire off of a couple of guys profit margin and your men having no benefits, I guess that is your choice. If guys don't perform they don't work. Neca units are labor units used on both sides of the fence. Bro.


Why would I bid a job off NECA units. I would have to cut them in half to win a job.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

sbrn33 said:


> Why would I bid a job off NECA units. I would have to cut them in half to win a job.


I would bet you like to use NECA 3 for change orders.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

jrannis said:


> I would bet you like to use NECA 3 for change orders.


No real contractor or owner would accept them. Only huge companies and government entities. Everyone one else would laugh.:laughing:


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

sbrn33 said:


> So we shouldn't even have to bid jobs? They should just give us at whatever price we ask. Plus if we do not perform well who cares my brothers are behind me.


What other professionals in this world have to bid so savagely against each other to get a job?

Do doctors, or dentists (just for two examples) bid against each other for work.....do _they_ race to the bottom of the pricing barrel to get a job??

The trades are about the only ones I can think of who have to do that crap with customers who expect a huge pricing difference...and electricians are about the worst of them for that.


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## markbrady (Jun 2, 2014)

You need to learn to read between the lines. Union reps can not tell you to work non union because it is against the rules so by telling you to salt when times are bad it is a way of saying we have no work right now BUT we realize you have a family and yourself to take care of so go work non union if you can and we will call it salting and not bring charges for working non union. Traveling is not easy when you have a family and your union reps know this so they are calling it salting when they really know its about feeding your family. That is my opinion at least in your situation so if you get hired go to work and be smart, efficient and safe and when times are good and your local is REALLY trying to organize maybe some non union guy you worked with who knows you are union will reach out to you or your local because he is ready and you made that so by setting a good example.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

I am just a small company and definitely don't pay union wages. I have never laid one guy off because work was slow.


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## markbrady (Jun 2, 2014)

sbrn33 said:


> I am just a small company and definitely don't pay union wages. I have never laid one guy off because work was slow.


Union or non-union good companies will hide their good workers when times are slow but can only do so for certain amount of time and that is totally understandable. I can't make money long term if whatever company I work for doesn't make money also and everyone needs to realize that. 
Sounds like you actually care about your men and thats a great thing and I hope you never have to lay off someone due to lack of work but lots of companies have no choice to do so especially if they are larger shops and the work dries up. 
I believe about 33% of electricians in the US were out work for some time when the politicians and bankers ruined our economy (the so called Great Recession) and that number was about the same for both union and non union. Construction is a cyclical business.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

sbrn33 said:


> I am just a small company and definitely don't pay union wages. I have never laid one guy off because work was slow.


So what do you do when work is slow?


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## 636to105 (Jan 27, 2015)

The only thing i really want to know is, the cheese everyone is talking about. Is it made by bona fide union labour?


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## Magoo5150 (Mar 1, 2007)

636to105 said:


> The only thing i really want to know is, the cheese everyone is talking about. Is it made by bona fide union labour?


I don't know, are the Amish organized. Ha


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

There was a time here in the South, back in the 1930s that big companies, especially DuPont, hired local preachers to vilify unions and it pretty much has stuck until this day. They didn't seem to be able to get into the Catholic Church so, that kind of explains why the North East doesn't buy into the whole anti worker rhetoric. inkind of see that same trend in some Midwest pockets and San Francisco.

You can find some references to the whole "bought Preacher" thing here and there. I know someone has wrote a book about it recently.

They used words like Communists, which doesn't work by its own definition. Recently, the word So******t get tossed around but, that is equally a very poor fit.
People being a bunch or organized capitalists is the best description I have ever heard. Problem is when you don't want to be a variable in the market.

THE 1920s was a decade of rapid expansion for American capitalism, and ruling class confidence soared. Leading economists proclaimed that the era of booms and slumps was in the past, and the U.S. economy could look forward to "permanent prosperity." The banking magnate Melvin A. Traylor declared confidently, "We need not fear a recurrence of the conditions that will plunge the nation into the depths of the more violent financial panics such as have occurred in the past."1

But they spoke too soon. Before the decade was over, the U.S. economy had plunged into the worst depression in U.S. history. The 1929 stock market crash which marked the beginning of the Great Depression ushered in a period of immiseration for virtually the entire working class. By 1932 it was estimated that 75 percent of the population was living in poverty, and fully one-third was unemployed. And in many places, Black unemployment rates were two, three, or even four times those of white workers.

But the richest people in society felt no sympathy for the starving masses. They had spent the previous decade slashing wages and breaking unions, with widespread success. By 1929, the American Federation of Labor (AFL) had lost a million members.2

With the onset of depression, they banded together as a group to oppose every measure to grant government assistance to feed the hungry or help the homeless. Most employers flatly refused to bargain with any union, and used the economic crisis as an excuse to slash all wages across the board. But in so doing, they unleashed the greatest period of social upheaval that has ever taken place in the United States.

When faced with working-class opposition, the ruling class responded with violence. Police repeatedly fired upon hunger marchers in the early 1930s. In 1932, for example, the Detroit police mowed down a hunger demonstration of several thousand, using machine guns. Four demonstrators were killed and more than 60 were injured. Yet afterward a city prosecutor said, "I say I wish they’d killed a few more of those damn rioters."3

In 1933, President Franklin Delano Roosevelt granted workers the right to organize into unions in Section 7(a) of the National Recovery Act, and workers rushed to join unions. But everywhere the employers put up violent resistance. In 1934, when 400,000 East Coast textile workers went on strike to win union recognition, the bosses responded with a reign of terror, provoking one of the bitterest and bloodiest strikes in U.S. labor history.

In the South, the ruling class unleashed a torrent of racism and anti-communism, while armed mobs attacked strikers. The Gastonia Daily Gazette ran "Communism in the South. Kill it!" as a front-page headline. Employers distributed anti-union leaflets that read, "Would you belong to a union which opposes White supremacy?"4

In Gastonia, North Carolina, National Guardsmen joined by armed strikebreakers, were ordered to "shoot to kill" unarmed strikers:

Without warning came the first shots, followed by many others, and for a few minutes there was bedlam. Striker after striker fell to the ground, with the cries of wounded men sounding over the field and men and women running shrieking from the scene.5

In Burlington, North Carolina, soldiers bayoneted five picketers in a group of 400, all of whom were wearing "peaceful picket" badges. In the North, the battle was no less violent, when National Guard troops occupied mill towns all over New England. Rhode Island’s Democratic governor declared that "there is a communist uprising and not a textile strike in Rhode Island," and called the legislature into special session to declare a state of insurrection and request federal troops.6

Although the strikers fought back heroically, they lost the strike. Thousands of strikers lost their jobs; others were forced to sign pledges to leave the union.


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## btharmy (Jan 17, 2009)

sbrn33 said:


> I am just a small company and definitely don't pay union wages. I have never laid one guy off because work was slow.


Keep in mind, a union shop might employ 20 workers normally. Then, they have an opportunity to do a job requiring 30 men. Unlike a merit shop, they can call the hall and get 10 more guys to man the job for 4 months. As a result of the job ending, 10 will be laid off. Maybe the same 10 or maybe they will cut some original and keep some of the new guys. Either way, having to lay off is a side effect of being able to "man up" a job in short order in order to secure work.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

636to105 said:


> The only thing i really want to know is, the cheese everyone is talking about. Is it made by bona fide union labour?


 No it isn't. It's made by small cheese plants in Wisconsin. You better not eat it though because it's not union made.:laughing:


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

btharmy said:


> Keep in mind, a union shop might employ 20 workers normally. Then, they have an opportunity to do a job requiring 30 men. Unlike a merit shop, they can call the hall and get 10 more guys to man the job for 4 months. As a result of the job ending, 10 will be laid off. Maybe the same 10 or maybe they will cut some original and keep some of the new guys. Either way, having to lay off is a side effect of being able to "man up" a job in short order in order to secure work.


 
Perfect example..........We have a day to day operating crew of 6 guys.......but have been known to take up to 25 from the hall. Sometimes we need them.


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## jimmy21 (Mar 31, 2012)

well. Employers seem to be calling me back left and right. 2 of them even sounded like the interview is was just a formality and the job is mine if I want it. Probably because I wrote in my resume that im frequently referred to as "the Michael Jordan of electrical work" and failed to mention that im going to steal all their tools, sit on break all day, and overall just cause a bunch of trouble. I figured that part was implied, though. You know, since im affiliated with the union and all.


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## 636to105 (Jan 27, 2015)

wendon said:


> No it isn't. It's made by small cheese plants in Wisconsin. You better not eat it though because it's not union made.:laughing:


i guess not with Wisco being a RTW state....
maybe just cheese from Quebec. Unions are big there.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

636to105 said:


> i guess not with Wisco being a RTW state....
> maybe just cheese from Quebec. Unions are big there.


I don't think the unions have made any cheese in Wisconsiberia for a number of years.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

jimmy21 said:


> well. Employers seem to be calling me back left and right. 2 of them even sounded like the interview is was just a formality and the job is mine if I want it. Probably because I wrote in my resume that im frequently referred to as "the O.J. Simpson of electrical work" and failed to mention that im going to rip all of the non-union guys work out, sit on break all day, steal tools, and overall just cause a bunch of trouble. I figured that part was implied, though. You know, since im affiliated with the union and all.


Whatever you say.............:whistling2:


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## jimmy21 (Mar 31, 2012)

Well, I'm officially a salt...... and no, I didn't try to hide that I'm union


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Do you still have to pay dues?


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## jimmy21 (Mar 31, 2012)

sbrn33 said:


> Do you still have to pay dues?


$40 a month for basic dues and obviously I don't have to pay the 4% of gross. 

I'm taking a 25% pay cut on the check. Closer to 50% if you count the whole package. With that kind of difference, while working union, it doesn't take long to cover dues for a while


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

eejack said:


> So what do you do when work is slow?


I haven't been really slow for quite awhile. Hell I would have them mow my lawn if I needed to.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

jimmy21 said:


> well. Employers seem to be calling me back left and right. 2 of them even sounded like the interview is was just a formality and the job is mine if I want it. Probably because I wrote in my resume that im frequently referred to as "the Michael Jordan of electrical work" and failed to mention that im going to steal all their tools, sit on break all day, and overall just cause a bunch of trouble. I figured that part was implied, though. You know, since im affiliated with the union and all.


You laugh, but that is because the union has priced themselves out of the under one million dollar market. Everyone else is busy.


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## electricraypdx (Mar 11, 2012)

Bad Electrician said:


> My limited knowledge and one experience were all negative, not imaginary pie in the sky Union Heaven that you live in.:laughing::laughing:
> 
> I see good and bad in union and I say the same about open shop. You only live in the world of union is perfect and open shop sucks. That is ok but do not assume everyone that bases an opposing opinion is a liar, POS or whatever you feel is worth boosting your opinion.


............... You have no realistic understanding of what unions really do and how they hold even your standards up. Without unions, all wages would be lower. Union members try to shop where they know workers are taken care of. The union label is one indication, as is "Made in America". Beyond that, often we run into situations where non-union employers have driven prices so far into the crapper that union products and services aren't available. At that point it comes down to personal due diligence to insure you did everything you could to not give your money to an asshole. It is difficult and sometimes costly having a moral compass and the honor to follow it, but no one ever said being union would always be easier. But every one of us who knows what it means to be part of true Brotherhood understands that occasional discomfort is worth it in the long run. 

I get that all unions and all locals have their crosses to bear and you are simply one of them, but your solipsism is dangerous to the genuinely curious and shows your ignorance to anyone who has a more worldly understanding of reality.


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## dawgs (Dec 1, 2007)

sbrn33 said:


> You laugh, but that is because the union has priced themselves out of the under one million dollar market. Everyone else is busy.


I seldom bid jobs over 1 million and stay busy. Small jobs are our bread and butter.


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## dawgs (Dec 1, 2007)

electricraypdx said:


> ................... You have no realistic understanding of what unions really do and how they hold even your standards up. Without unions, all wages would be lower. Union members try to shop where they know workers are taken care of. The union label is one indication, as is "Made in America". Beyond that, often we run into situations where non-union employers have driven prices so far into the crapper that union products and services aren't available. At that point it comes down to personal due diligence to insure you did everything you could to not give your money to an asshole. It is difficult and sometimes costly having a moral compass and the honor to follow it, but no one ever said being union would always be easier. But every one of us who knows what it means to be part of true Brotherhood understands that occasional discomfort is worth it in the long run.
> 
> I get that all unions and all locals have their crosses to bear and you are simply one of them, but your solipsism is dangerous to the genuinely curious and shows your ignorance to anyone who has a more worldly understanding of reality.


I guess you don't know that Brian owns a union shop and that he is very good to his workers, but you want to bash him for not agreeing with some salting methods?


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## electricraypdx (Mar 11, 2012)

dawgs said:


> I guess you don't know that Brian owns a union shop and that he is very good to his workers, but you want to bash him for not agreeing with some salting methods?


My apologies, I think my statement was in response to quotes from more than just "Bad Electrician". Looking back through the thread, I think I was more offended by AmpMan and another of the hostile anti-union folks. 

My comments weren't about the criticism of salting methods, they were more geared toward the accusations leveled against us union folk about the products and services we buy not being union. 

Sorry for the miscommunication.


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## jimmy21 (Mar 31, 2012)

sbrn33 said:


> You laugh, but that is because the union has priced themselves out of the under one million dollar market. Everyone else is busy.


I laugh because of the prejudistic stereotism, on both sides of the fence, that exists on this board


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## Glock23gp (Mar 10, 2014)

Jimmy I had lunch with the my BA and he said most of Washington is a walk thru as well as several locals in the Bay Area fwiw.

And if / when Jordan Cove hits we will have 980 electricians on that job slated for 3 million man hours


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## Wireman584 (Nov 26, 2014)

jimmy21 said:


> My main goal is to earn a paycheck. If I can change some peoples minds about union hands and the IBEW while doing that, thats fine as well.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Jimmy21 - I am a 25 year IBEW member, from the south. I've never salted. And, stop asking these non-union folks about it. That's un-ethical. They do not need to know anything about it. They are your competition.


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## Wireman584 (Nov 26, 2014)

Salting is ethical - telling these non-union folks in not!.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

electricraypdx said:


> ................. You have no realistic understanding of what unions really do and how they hold even your standards up. Without unions, all wages would be lower. Union members try to shop where they know workers are taken care of. The union label is one indication, as is "Made in America". Beyond that, often we run into situations where non-union employers have driven prices so far into the crapper that union products and services aren't available. At that point it comes down to personal due diligence to insure you did everything you could to not give your money to an asshole. It is difficult and sometimes costly having a moral compass and the honor to follow it, but no one ever said being union would always be easier. But every one of us who knows what it means to be part of true Brotherhood understands that occasional discomfort is worth it in the long run.
> 
> I get that all unions and all locals have their crosses to bear and you are simply one of them, but your solipsism is dangerous to the genuinely curious and shows your ignorance to anyone who has a more worldly understanding of reality.



man, this really made me LOL.


HAHAHAHHAHA

a poster who has a whopping 5 posts and knows it all. these kinds of posts really crack me up.


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## jimmy21 (Mar 31, 2012)

Glock23gp said:


> Jimmy I had lunch with the my BA and he said most of Washington is a walk thru as well as several locals in the Bay Area fwiw.
> 
> And if / when Jordan Cove hits we will have 980 electricians on that job slated for 3 million man hours


I was talking to the secretary of 932 and she said they don't expect calls for jordan cove for at least 2 to 3 years.... if everything goes smooth


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## theJcK (Aug 7, 2013)

Id like to be the David Robinson of electrical stuff.. just for the record.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Wireman584 said:


> Salting is ethical - telling these non-union folks in not!.


Salting is ethical????? You are kidding right?


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

We could discuss the benefits of union vs nonunion work until the cows come home. The history of the unions in the US is filled with the good, the bad, the ugly, and the illegal. So is the nonunion history. You simply cannot argue about the benefits of collective bargaining, and you also cannot ignore the history that has transpired that tainted the unions with corruption, politics, thuggery, criminal ties, etc. 

The fact is, there is a lot of benefit to everyone that the unions exist, and it's a good thing they aren't going away any time soon. It is simply a fact of the human condition that the unions would have eventually been involved in everything I listed above; there was no avoiding it. 

As to the question of ethics, I honestly think that it doesn't even apply. Salting or not is a business decision, and, yes, the unions are a business. They are in the business of providing a labor pool, and if the timing, the situation, and the predicted outcome are beneficial towards salting the non union labor pools in an effort to increase union leverage, then it is simply a business decision to salt or not. Ethics apply in some business decisions, but I don't think it has any application in this one - I don't think it is relevant.

FWIW (to those who wish to discount my opinion), you should know I have been involved in family businesses that were both union and non union, so I actually do have some perspective on the matter.

Additionally, to those that think that salting is some sort of secret that non union companies don't know about - guess again. There is plenty of information (and help, if you want to call it that) freely available from numerous "open shop" sources, as well as government sources. 

Discuss away, get mad (or not), throw tantrums and insults, it doesn't much matter. Unions aren't going away, and neither is salting. Forcing a vote at non union companies is perfectly legal, and isn't going away either. In fact, I actually believe it benefits non union companies in the long run (but that's another story altogether).

good luck with the salting, and happy trails (I don't know why you would want to work for 1/2 scale, but that's your business).


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

sbrn33 said:


> Salting is ethical????? You are kidding right?


I feel the real question is 'what is salting?'

The way I understand salting, it has to be above board and ethical, else it is not salting. Anything that is unethical is not salting...it is unethical and should never be practiced.

I have heard ( here on et ) stories about unethical and malicious actions that folks call salting. Sabotaging work is not salting and no local that I am aware of will do so. ( don't bother with your anecdotal musings - ain't gonna read them - even if true I don't care ).


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

I should not even be in this thread as it is in the union section which I did not notice. 
But..and this is a big but. If you think planting someone from another company and trying to hire, convert, or anything else that makes the employees of said company unhappy is ethical, you and me are way way off.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

articles on salting for those that can't decide what it is:

http://restorationindustry.org/files/Legal%20Briefs_edited__1.pdf

http://laborpains.org/2012/07/16/a-salty-double-standard/

http://www.shrm.org/templatestools/hrqa/pages/whatdoestheterm%E2%80%9Csalting%E2%80%9Dasaunionorganizingtacticmean.aspx

http://www.employerlawreport.com/2008/02/articles/labor-relations/nlrb-general-counsel-issues-two-memoranda-good-for-employer-salt-free-diets/

http://www.sgrlaw.com/resources/trust_the_leaders/leaders_issues/ttl17/828/

http://www.frostbrowntodd.com/resources-920.html


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

wildleg said:


> articles on salting for those that can't decide what it is:


Nice work assembling these articles. I realize they present one point of view, and have a heavy bias, but are well presented and decently written.

It does show that it would be in the union's best interest to spend more time and effort promoting themselves to at least mitigate the massive efforts of the anti-worker pro-business side of things.

Imagine if all that effort to break unions was instead devoted to improving employee conditions, benefits and pay...you wouldn't need to avoid collective bargaining at all. :thumbsup:


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## jimmy21 (Mar 31, 2012)

so, i assume that the people saying that salting is unethical have a similar feeling about a non union electrician taking a job off of book 4 (the book for non union people wanting to take a job through the union hall).


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## pjholguin (May 16, 2014)

jimmy21 said:


> so, i assume that the people saying that salting is unethical have a similar feeling about a non union electrician taking a job off of book 4 (the book for non union people wanting to take a job through the union hall).


How often is book 4 even looked at?


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

We have very little union presence in our area but I presume if you're union and sitting on the bench, the only way you can work for a non-union shop and not get in trouble is to do this "salting" thing, correct? The only unions we would have locally are the government workers. Maybe someone could explain to me why RTW is such a bad thing and why, when Scott Walker did what he did, a large number of teachers etc. bailed out of the union?


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## jimmy21 (Mar 31, 2012)

pjholguin said:


> How often is book 4 even looked at?


Whenever there is unfilled calls by book 1 and 2. Its happened quite a bit the last couple years here.


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## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

wendon said:


> We have very little union presence in our area but I presume if you're union and sitting on the bench, the only way you can work for a non-union shop and not get in trouble is to do this "salting" thing, correct? The only unions we would have locally are the government workers. Maybe someone could explain to me why RTW is such a bad thing and why, when Scott Walker did what he did, a large number of teachers etc. bailed out of the union?


Right to work, good or bad can be spun many different ways. 

My point of view is that it is just a way to break unions by making the local union go broke. It basically says that you do not need to belong to a union or pay dues to a union and by law that union would still have to put you to work and represent you just the same. 

I would imagine the teachers you mention left the union and stopped paying dues but still are represented by the union. I don't know anything about that union or how it operates. 

Now I am sure most people would love to respond positively to what the governor did, but those same people would be up in arms if the government turned their business into a nonprofit and told them they could no longer charge for their services from their customers. 

I believe every American has the right to work and I believe every business has the right to charge and collect for their service. If you don't want to pay find a job elsewhere. The problem is that might not always be the case with public sector jobs.


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## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

In A right to work state is there a book 4? I was under the impression that anyone off the street could sign book 1. 

I was told by a non-union electrician from Florida that he was going to sign the book at our hall and they would have to put him to work. I told him good luck with that.


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## kg7879 (Feb 3, 2014)

sbrn33 said:


> You laugh, but that is because the union has priced themselves out of the under one million dollar market. Everyone else is busy.


I have to say this is true in my local. Our former business managers in the eighties neglected the small project market. There were union guys who wanted to start their own shops and the business managers basically told them no thanks. 

Well all those one man shops went non union and know they are fairly large.

My local gets all the big jobs, but when you man up a job that takes 700 electricians it doesn't take a genesis to know that a contractor will never be able to find spots for all those guys. When the big work drys up we all end up back at the hall, or go on the road, or go salt.


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## kg7879 (Feb 3, 2014)

wendon said:


> We have very little union presence in our area but I presume if you're union and sitting on the bench, the only way you can work for a non-union shop and not get in trouble is to do this "salting" thing, correct? The only unions we would have locally are the government workers. Maybe someone could explain to me why RTW is such a bad thing and why, when Scott Walker did what he did, a large number of teachers etc. bailed out of the union?



Lets say somebody does not like an aspect of their job. What should they do? Quit or deal with it.

If you do not want to pay dues then you should quit your job or deal with it. Just like if my company decides next week that I need to buy my own drills, benders, and porta bands. I should either buy them or quit if I do not want to spend the money.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

cabletie said:


> In A right to work state is there a book 4? I was under the impression that anyone off the street could sign book 1.
> 
> I was told by a non-union electrician from Florida that he was going to sign the book at our hall and they would have to put him to work. I told him good luck with that.


Basically the books work like this....

Book 1 are union members of that local union.
Book 2 are union members of other locals.
Book 3 are non union tradesmen with a minimum of 2 years experience living within the territory of the local union
Book 4 are non union tradesman with a minimum of 1 years experience.

Calls go through each book in turn.

RTW has nothing to do with the book system. It has to due with starving the worker side of the collective bargaining process and weakening worker rights. It is a political action paid for by business interests that want to get more and pay less. It is supported by folks who believe that making rich people richer by giving them money out of their own pockets is in their own best interests.


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## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

eejack said:


> Basically the books work like this....
> 
> Book 1 are union members of that local union.
> Book 2 are union members of other locals.
> ...


In a RTW state, would someone going to work off of book 2 or 3 be required to pay working dues or international dues?

How about here in NJ?


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

cabletie said:


> In a RTW state, would someone going to work off of book 2 or 3 be required to pay working dues or international dues?
> 
> How about here in NJ?


Book 2 would pay dues, book 3 would not in an RTW state. In NJ they would pay the payroll assessments but not the yearly dues.

Yes, it is extremely unfair for folks to get free collective bargaining. I am often astounded that the very same folks who complain about people getting welfare or other benefits insist that unions give them free benefits. Certainly seems contrary, but I guess if your goal is to pad the pockets of wealthy businesses it makes some sense.


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## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

I thought it was kind of weird. The guy from Florida was giving me the impression that if there was a hall putting guys to work that he had the same right to work member or not, and was entitled to sign the same book. 

His word is the only experience I have with RTW.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

I Infiltrated a RTW function the other night and wanted to puke. Basically a bunch of old blue hairs saying how RTW is good for the economy. If you weren't a pure capitalist, they considered you a communist. Very sickening.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

Loose Neutral said:


> I Infiltrated a RTW function the other night and wanted to puke. Basically a bunch of old blue hairs saying how RTW is good for the economy. If you weren't a pure capitalist, they considered you a communist. Very sickening.


Sounds like the complete political system here in SC.
A bunch of out of touch rich republicans telling the rest of us how good we got it.
When you got tricky Nikki Haley as the governor (sorry mac, as you might be using her likeness for your self gratification) what can you expect.

God, Guns and BMW is the state motto.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

thank you, guvnor


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

Bottom line, RTW is not about the economy or union vs non union. Simply an attack on the PAC. Less dues paying members = less PAC contributions.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

cabletie said:


> Right to work, good or bad can be spun many different ways.
> 
> My point of view is that it is just a way to break unions by making the local union go broke. It basically says that you do not need to belong to a union or pay dues to a union and by law that union would still have to put you to work and represent you just the same.
> 
> ...


You're saying the government hasn't turned our businesses into non-profit organizations???? You evidently don't own a business.........:whistling2: The perception of the public union is the guys that are leaning on each other because their boss forgot to bring their shovels to the job. As the county budgets are getting tighter, there being forced to change some of that. Where the money is going? Who knows???


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

Loose Neutral said:


> I salted a RTW function the other night and wanted to puke. Basically a bunch of old blue hairs saying how RTW is good for the economy. If you weren't a pure capitalist, they considered you a communist. Very sickening.


Who did you go dressed as??? How many catfish fillets did you eat? Did they serve grits???? Was the deep-fried okra any good???:laughing:


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

I love just sitting back and watching unions become more irrelevant and smaller with every passing year.


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

MTW said:


> I love just sitting back and watching unions become more irrelevant and smaller with every passing year.


I will get back to you in a few years when the US government finally succeeds in ridding the US of those pesky unions and we can have a chat about how you like a working world without unions.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Rollie73 said:


> I will get back to you in a few years when the US government finally succeeds in ridding the US of those pesky unions and we can have a chat about how you like a working world without unions.


I highly doubt that's going to occur considering our far-left leadership is very pro-union. I would be perfectly happy working in a world without unions as long as you guys keep employing tactics like "salting" and looking down your nose at non-union workers.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

wendon said:


> Who did you go dressed as??? How many catfish fillets did you eat? Did they serve grits???? Was the deep-fried okra any good???:laughing:


 Unfortunately I wasn't in the deep south, up here in the north east. I do love grits though.  Don't know about any of that other stuff.


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## pete87 (Oct 22, 2012)

Loose Neutral said:


> Unfortunately I wasn't in the deep south, up here in the north east. I do love grits though. Don't know about any of that other stuff.




Breakfast Sausage Gravy and Biscuits .... 


I was turned on to this dish on my first trip South !




Pete


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

pete87 said:


> Breakfast Sausage Gravy and Biscuits ....
> 
> 
> I was turned on to this dish on my first trip South !
> ...


I make that often. Specially in the winter. I like to make that with 2 eggs over easy on top with the gravy and some shredded cheddar next to some home fries. Watch out!!!!


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## jimmy21 (Mar 31, 2012)

Your friendly neighborhood salt checking in..... I'm off taking my break, I don't know if im already stirring the pot or if breaks are normal to them


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

jimmy21 said:


> Your friendly neighborhood salt checking in..... I'm off taking my break, I don't know if im already stirring the pot or if breaks are normal to them


Now you're just adding wound to the salt...


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

cabletie said:


> I thought it was kind of weird. The guy from Florida was giving me the impression that if there was a hall putting guys to work that he had the same right to work member or not, and was entitled to sign the same book.
> 
> His word is the only experience I have with RTW.


He's under the mistaken impression that "right to work" actually means he has a right to work.


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

MTW said:


> I highly doubt that's going to occur considering our far-left leadership is very pro-union. I would be perfectly happy working in a world without unions as long as you guys keep employing tactics like "salting" and looking down your nose at non-union workers.


Show me where I have ever looked down my nose at anybody. You seem to have me confused with somebody else.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

jimmy21 said:


> Your friendly neighborhood salt checking in..... I'm off taking my break, I don't know if im already stirring the pot or if breaks are normal to them


Hope you're able to keep up. If not, they might say something offensive to you.


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## jimmy21 (Mar 31, 2012)

Well, it's different, that's for sure....... not in the ways I was imagining, but it's definitely not what I'm used to, that's for sure


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## dawgs (Dec 1, 2007)

jimmy21 said:


> Well, it's different, that's for sure....... not in the ways I was imagining, but it's definitely not what I'm used to, that's for sure


What's the major differences your talking about?

The only change I had to make going to signatory was purchase extra cordless tools and socket sets. Not that I wouldn't have before I was signatory, but guys just showed up with that stuff as part of there tools.


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## jimmy21 (Mar 31, 2012)

dawgs said:


> What's the major differences your talking about?
> 
> The only change I had to make going to signatory was purchase extra cordless tools and socket sets. Not that I wouldn't have before I was signatory, but guys just showed up with that stuff as part of there tools.


That's probably the biggest difference. They were confused that j didn't have battery power tools. I still dont know if thats going to be an issue. I have some at home but firmly believe that i shouldnt have to bring them. The guy I'm working next to brought his own auger bits and extensions because he said the ones the shop had were so dull he couldn't get anything done. That's the next big difference.... I know this isn't open shops as a whole but this company has the most pathetic tools of any company I've ever worked for. I was at the shop and everything was super old. It all looked worn out, broken or "temperamental." You don't have to be some amazing businessman to see that you are wasting money by not having proper tools.

Then there are a bunch of small, minor differences that arent really worth getting in to


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

jimmy21 said:


> That's probably the biggest difference. They were confused that j didn't have battery power tools. I still dont know if thats going to be an issue. I have some at home but firmly believe that i shouldnt have to bring them. The guy I'm working next to brought his own auger bits and extensions because he said the ones the shop had were so dull he couldn't get anything done. That's the next big difference.... I know this isn't open shops as a whole but this company has the most pathetic tools of any company I've ever worked for. I was at the shop and everything was super old. It all looked worn out, broken or "temperamental." You don't have to be some amazing businessman to see that you are wasting money by not having proper tools.
> 
> Then there are a bunch of small, minor differences that arent really worth getting in to


Whining already!!!! You better stick with a union shop. :laughing:


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

I buy my guys all their cordless tools. I buy batteries when required. I would not buy you any though. I would give you a brace and bit. You are a cancer.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

I would give you the nastiest jobs my company had. I might even bid some **** jobs just for you.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

wendon said:


> Whining already!!!! You better stick with a union shop. :laughing:


Union shops provide tools...somewhat of a difference. Union shops also provide material, how soon till the non union shops start asking folks to bring in their own wirenuts.:laughing:


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

eejack said:


> Union shops provide tools...somewhat of a difference. Union shops also provide material, how soon till the non union shops start asking folks to bring in their own wirenuts.:laughing:


You should be banned for making such an ignorant comment.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

It amazes me every single day how brainwashed you union kids are.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

*Enough of the union / non-union bashing. *


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

I think enough has been said here.


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