# Paying dues and NOT working



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

It would seem in these tough times the Union would work with you. Have you gone to see them to discuss your issues?


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## s.kelly (Mar 20, 2009)

Not really much constructive to say here, your decision will have to be your own. However, I am sorry to hear the tough time you are having, as well as many others on the forum out right now. 

We have quite a few out in our local, and there are some bigger jobs winding down. Nervous times for everyone still working, and hard times for those out.

Best of luck to you


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

S. Kelly, what local?


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## Toronto Sparky (Apr 12, 2009)

Hmm In Toronto Three months your out. (You can get reinstated but not always easy)


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

See if your local has dues relief and apply for it. Talk to your BA.


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## daddymack (Jun 3, 2008)

As much as I hate to say this but you have to put your family ahead of the union. Don't starve if you have a skill that can make you some money. Do what you need to do. I'm not a big fan of Ed Hill, and his desire to organize more people then the unions can sustain has destroyed the brotherhood by pitting us against each other to keep a job. Dues are going up faster then our raises. I really think the IBEW needs another union to compete against. Sadly,this ain't the union I joined.


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## s.kelly (Mar 20, 2009)

brian john said:


> S. Kelly, what local?


 local 666 Richmond


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## SideWorker (Aug 2, 2009)

All_amped_up said:


> I know this is a touchy subject to alot of you guys, but why the heck am I paying my dues and NOT working?
> My local in the south is hurting, I'm in the IJ program and can't even start school because I don't have the cash to dump on books. I'm behind on my dues and DB, and can't pay ANY of them due to no work. I can't even find anything in open shop. I'm stressed....I hear the JW's have about 800 of the books as well. I'm getting notices about my dues, but damn...can't pay them.
> Why would I pay dues when that money can go to putting food on the table but can't get a job with my local?
> Hell, I can't even take advantage of the free classes like the OSHA stuff because I can't afford the gas to drive to the hall.....
> Guess I'm venting more than anything


There is no free lunch. While the union is out trying to get jobs, do you expect them to run for free?

Let me ask a question I ask anyone who is hurting, how many pickets have you been to lately? I was at a picket on Friday where about 50 guys showed up, most of them that I talked to took the day off since they were working. The odd thing is that we have 600 guys out of work, so where were they? Why do we picket jobs trying to get them to go union and only have 20 guys there? 

The union isn't all "take". You have to "give" a little too.


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## sparky970 (Mar 19, 2008)

SideWorker said:


> There is no free lunch. While the union is out trying to get jobs, do you expect them to run for free?
> 
> Let me ask a question I ask anyone who is hurting, how many pickets have you been to lately? I was at a picket on Friday where about 50 guys showed up, most of them that I talked to took the day off since they were working. The odd thing is that we have 600 guys out of work, so where were they? Why do we picket jobs trying to get them to go union and only have 20 guys there?
> 
> The union isn't all "take". You have to "give" a little too.


Well said. If there is a picket, where are all the unemployed people? Obviously not fighting for the work.


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## paul d. (Jul 13, 2008)

sparky970 said:


> Well said. If there is a picket, where are all the unemployed people? Obviously not fighting for the work.


 most of em probably out somewhere " eatin some cheese ". :whistling2:


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

sparky970 said:


> Well said. If there is a picket, where are all the unemployed people? Obviously not fighting for the work.


Yeah, because we all know that a picket is a highly effective marketing tool. :jester:


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

sparky970 said:


> Well said. If there is a picket, where are all the unemployed people? Obviously not fighting for the work.


Ha, they're probably busy working at an open shop, or at any other establishment that'll help them bring in a check.

This is the real world, you need to adapt.


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

SideWorker said:


> Why do we picket jobs trying to get them to go union


Kind of an ironic question coming from a "SideWorker"


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## SideWorker (Aug 2, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> Yeah, because we all know that a picket is a highly effective marketing tool. :jester:


The last two pickets I was on, including the one on Friday, worked. They decided to go union.

I'd say you're right.


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## SideWorker (Aug 2, 2009)

knowshorts said:


> Kind of an ironic question coming from a "SideWorker"


Well, the complete question I asked was: 
"_Why do we picket jobs trying to get them to go union and only have 20 guys there? _"
That's a completely different question than what you quoted me saying.

To answer your question, none of the side work I have ever done is in any way competition to the signatory union contractors in my area.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

SideWorker said:


> The last two pickets I was on, including the one on Friday, worked. They decided to go union.


Hi. Marc here. I'm calling your bluff. Which two were they?


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## SideWorker (Aug 2, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> Hi. Marc here. I'm calling your bluff. Which two were they?


Hi Marc, I'm the guy that you just called a liar. Nice to start out on good terms.

The first was work on the Bridgewater Commons Mall last year.
Friday was the Data Center located at 61 Walsh Drive in Parsippany.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

SideWorker said:


> Friday was the Data Center located at 61 Walsh Drive in Parsippany.


That's what I thought you'd say. Lou says he doesn't know which way that job's going yet.


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## SideWorker (Aug 2, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> That's what I thought you'd say. Lou says he doesn't know which way that job's going yet.


Prove your statement. Validate that in any way.

Mike got the call he was waiting for and told all of us that we are in. 

Until your proof, I am going to believe the people who actually matter.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

s.kelly said:


> local 666 Richmond


OH Virginia's favorite....


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Local 666... _put a little devil in your wiring. _


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

SideWorker said:


> To answer your question, none of the side work I have ever done is in any way competition to the signatory union contractors in my area.



I say: *BULL SH!T*

Are you telling me LU 102 has no "B" program?

EDIT:
Are you a licensed EC in the great State of NJ?


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## SideWorker (Aug 2, 2009)

Celtic said:


> I say: *BULL SH!T*
> 
> Are you telling me LU 102 has no "B" program?
> 
> ...


Other than charity work, can you show me a single instance of the 102 B guys installing ceiling fans in single residential homes? Replacing receptacles? Hot tub installs? Even doing services?

Yes.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

SideWorker said:


> Other than charity work, can you show me a single instance of the 102 B guys installing ceiling fans in single residential homes? Replacing receptacles? Hot tub installs? Even doing services?
> 
> Yes.


Can you prove otherwise?

The simple truth is this:
102 does have a "B" program.
"B" men work for signatory contractors performing a variety of work , including, but not limited to:

installing ceiling fans in SFH
Replacing receptacles
Hot tub installs
Even doing services
Installing recessed cans
Kitchen and bath remodels
Additions
New SFH construction
etc
 To issue a blanket statment such as this - "...none of the side work I have ever done is in any way competition to the signatory union contractors in my area..." is a flat out lie.
You either know and don't care...or know and don't care about your "brothers".....in both cases ~ you don't care and issued the statement to defend/protect yourself from from any and all accusations.

You might be surprised to find out that there are many "B" contractors in "your territory" that you are competing against. Give Lou Baram a call and ask for yourself if you don't believe me.



I, for one, am curious about a hot tub install ~ done pro bono/charity.:laughing:


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## SideWorker (Aug 2, 2009)

Celtic said:


> To issue a blanket statment such as this - "...none of the side work I have ever done is in any way competition to the signatory union contractors in my area..." is a flat out lie.


 Then prove it's a lie.
I made a statement and I stand by it. You're calling me out as a liar, so prove it. Show me a union contractor that does any type of sidework that I do. You seem to have a vested interest in this so I assume you'll have your proof pretty quick, correct?

BTW, I was in the 102 B program for 3 years, I know what type of work we do. I don't need to call Lou. 



> I, for one, am curious about a hot tub install ~ done pro bono/charity.:laughing:


 We've done charity work such as installing ceiling fans in lower income housing. That is what I was excluding, not hot tub installs.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

SideWorker said:


> I don't need to call Lou.



Keep dreaming the dream and living the lie.


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## SideWorker (Aug 2, 2009)

Celtic said:


> Keep dreaming the dream and living the lie.


Ok, I didn't think you'd come up with any proof behind your allegations. So my statement stands as being true. Next time you call someone out, have a clue what you are talking about.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

SideWorker said:


> Ok, I didn't think you'd come up with any proof behind your allegations. So my statement stands as being true. Next time you call someone out, have a clue what you are talking about.



You want me to prove a lie????


Riddle me this.....Have you worked for every single "B" shop in 102's territory in the vast 3 years you were a member?



Keep your head out the sand dude...you leave your ass open.


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## SideWorker (Aug 2, 2009)

Celtic said:


> You want me to prove a lie????


 Yes, you called me a liar and basically called me an assh0le for things that are not true. I want you to prove those things, it's very simple.
If you're going to pound your chest behind you keyboard, at least know what you are talking about and be able to back up the claims you make.


> Riddle me this.....Have you worked for every single "B" shop in 102's territory in the vast 3 years you were a member?


No, I have not. However, I have interacted with hundreds of fellow workers over the many years and I know what the jobs consist of. If you could prove me wrong, go right ahead.

Riddle me this....Have you worked for any "B" shop in 102" territory in your career that has done small residential work? No? I didn't think so...

Seriously, If you proved me wrong then I would apologize for making a wrong claim. But since you have no plans to do that, I'm done with you. I have no reason to accept insult from some random internet tough guy.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

Celtic said:


> You want me to prove a lie????
> 
> 
> SideWorker said:
> ...





Celtic said:


> Riddle me this.....Have you worked for every single "B" shop in 102's territory in the vast 3 years you were a member?
> 
> 
> SideWorker said:
> ...


Elvis has left the building.
Thanks for proving my point :thumbsup:


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

SideWorker said:


> Yes, you called me a liar and basically called me an assh0le for things that are not true. I want you to prove those things, it's very simple.
> If you're going to pound your chest behind you keyboard, at least know what you are talking about and be able to back up the claims you make.
> 
> 
> ...



Sideworker, if you want to say ASSHOLE-it's cool. Just say, ASSHOLE, not assh0le, perfectly accepted here.


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

NolaTigaBait said:


> Sideworker, if you want to say ASSHOLE-it's cool. Just say, ASSHOLE, not assh0le, perfectly accepted here.


This is the only post in the last dozen I understood.:thumbsup:


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

SideWorker said:


> I made a statement and I stand by it. You're calling me out as a liar, so prove it. Show me a union contractor that does any type of sidework that I do.


Well, I seriously doubt you are competing with any union contractors for this work, but you most certainly ARE undercutting legitimate smaller non-union contractors. 
That is what bothers me. The hypocritical mentality of big shop guys doing side work thinking they are not hurting anyone, or worse yet not caring.


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## SideWorker (Aug 2, 2009)

Speedy Petey said:


> Well, I seriously doubt you are competing with any union contractors for this work,


 You'll have to argue that with the commando above.


> but you most certainly ARE undercutting legitimate smaller non-union contractors.


 I am a licensed EC. I own an LLC, I pay taxes, the only thing I am excluded from is workman's comp since I'm a one man show. 


> That is what bothers me. The hypocritical mentality of big shop guys doing side work thinking they are not hurting anyone, or worse yet not caring.


What exactly am I doing wrong? How am I a hypocrite? How am I hurting anyone more than any other EC? And why should I care more than any other EC?

Is this like one of those gang initiations where everyone jumps on the new guy?


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

No, not at all.

So you are a legitimate one man EC, yet you are in the union working as well?


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## SideWorker (Aug 2, 2009)

Speedy Petey said:


> No, not at all.
> 
> So you are a legitimate one man EC, yet you are in the union working as well?


I got my license when I finished my IBEW apprenticeship. I was working some overtime jobs earlier on, but I haven't seen much overtime in years so I do my own thing on the weekends sometimes. The only rules are that I don't take work from a signatory contractor and I don't use the referral system while my business permit is active.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

I still am not thrilled with the concept, but at least you went the legal and correct route and did the right thing. 
Most side work guys just grab the cash and run. No taxes, no insurance, no license.


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## SideWorker (Aug 2, 2009)

Speedy Petey said:


> I still am not thrilled with the concept


Why not?

ETA: The only person who has a right to have an issue against me for doing this is the contractor I work for. However, he has no issue, he bought me over half my tools (well, he purchased them for me thru his suppliers, I paid). As long as I am fresh in the morning and not too tired from working the night before, he has no gripe.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

I don't know, I guess I still consider it undercutting small full time contractors. I see where I could be wrong though.
I guess since you are legit and have most of the same overhead this opinion has less validity. 

Heck, if want to work all those extra hours it is your life, right. More power to ya.


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## SideWorker (Aug 2, 2009)

I have to admit, paying taxes does hurt when I know that all the other guys do it for cash. But all it takes is one time to really screw things up, and I don't want to live worrying about it. I just raise my cost to cover the taxes, I'm still lower than the other guys. Some of these big contractors in NJ are outrageous, they'll charge $4K for a 200A service!


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## s.kelly (Mar 20, 2009)

brian john said:


> OH Virginia's favorite....


 ???
bad experiences here, or with people here, or is it just the number thing?


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Speedy Petey said:


> Heck, if want to work all those extra hours it is your life, right. More power to ya.


That's right, this is America, where we can go as far as we are willing to work hard!

Now to hear contractors whining about not complying with permits, licensing, and the agreement as such, it makes me sick, because they were all deadset against these things in the first place.

It is okay to pay a man $8 an hour in Arizona and call him a journeyman electrician, but its not okay for that same guy to do a kitchen remodel on the side and make himself as much as he makes in a month? Gimme a break, and catch me if you can suckas!


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## BDB (Jul 9, 2008)

miller_elex said:


> That's right, this is America, where we can go as far as we are willing to work hard!
> 
> Now to hear contractors whining about not complying with permits, licensing, and the agreement as such, it makes me sick, because they were all deadset against these things in the first place.
> 
> It is okay to pay a man $8 an hour in Arizona and call him a journeyman electrician, but its not okay for that same guy to do a kitchen remodel on the side and make himself as much as he makes in a month? Gimme a break, and catch me if you can suckas!


Yep, that is typical, Use only the parts of the agreement that works for you or that you like, then just throw the rest of the agreement out the window.:no:


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## SideWorker (Aug 2, 2009)

BDB said:


> Yep, that is typical, Use only the parts of the agreement that works for you or that you like, then just throw the rest of the agreement out the window.:no:


What agreement?


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## BDB (Jul 9, 2008)

miller_elex said:


> Now to hear contractors whining about not complying with permits, licensing, and *the agreement* as such, it makes me sick, because they were all deadset against these things in the first place.


Union agreement


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

miller_elex said:


> That's right, this is America, where we can go as far as we are willing to work hard!
> 
> Now to hear contractors whining about not complying with permits, licensing, and the agreement as such, it makes me sick, because they were all deadset against these things in the first place.
> 
> It is okay to pay a man $8 an hour in Arizona and call him a journeyman electrician, but its not okay for that same guy to do a kitchen remodel on the side and make himself as much as he makes in a month? Gimme a break, and catch me if you can suckas!


 
ON one hand you say "Now to hear contractors whining about not complying with permits, licensing, and the agreement as such, it makes me sick" then you say it is OK for a guy to do side work. 

Is your head screwed on right?


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## SideWorker (Aug 2, 2009)

BDB said:


> Union agreement


The way he was talking about getting paid $8, I didn't think he was union.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

brian john said:


> ON one hand you say "Now to hear contractors whining about not complying with permits, licensing, and the agreement as such, it makes me sick" then you say it is OK for a guy to do side work.
> Is your head screwed on right?


If the job has no MC(excluding that for funky stuff in custom kitchens,) no EMT, no 555's, no table benders, 

AND

the majority of the work is plastic boxes, romex, plastic pipe, and 1 inch breakers,

THEN

Its not stealing work from a contractor in most guys eyes, its just the work of a glorified handyman.

Sure, residential and romex is a great place to start, and everyone should start there its a great place to learn circuitry. But, to get stuck there, especially for the whole apprenticeship, is a terrible thing, because you learned all there is to know after six months.

I've got no sympathy for resi contractors. Guys are treated like disposible, there's no health insurance, and no retirement. Great place to work with methheads and convicts.


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## George Stolz (Jan 22, 2009)

SideWorker said:


> There is no free lunch. While the union is out trying to get jobs, do you expect them to run for free?


This statement hangs with me. Are you saying the union would go broke if they didn't have the non-working guys paying their dues?

I never really thought about being unemployed (i.e. let down) for an extended period of time and still having to pay the organization that's letting me down...? :001_huh:


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## SideWorker (Aug 2, 2009)

George Stolz said:


> This statement hangs with me. Are you saying the union would go broke if they didn't have the non-working guys paying their dues?


 Well, if no one was working they wouldn't be getting working dues (dues assessment, whatever your want to call them). And if no one was contributing quarterly dues, where would the money come from? I'm not an accountant nor am I higher up on the union politics so if you know something I don't, do tell.


> I never really thought about being unemployed (i.e. let down) for an extended period of time and still having to pay the organization that's letting me down...? :001_huh:


Why not? If they are actively seeking work *for you* why should they not be paid to operate? Should they work for free until they find you a job? Does the union's overhead sudden disappear when so many guys are out of work?

If you can't take the good with the bad then you're probably not going to like the union. 

Even tho I am lucky in that I've worked solidly, I still get some of the bad side. I pay over $25K per year for healthcare, yet I have relatively bad coverage. That extra money I pay goes into the pot for everyone to share, that's part of the brotherhood thing. If you're not into that, it's probably best you don't join.

Just to clarify, you only pay the basic quarterly dues when you're not working. The working dues that normally comes out of your paycheck does not get paid when you are not working.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

miller_elex said:


> If the job has no MC(excluding that for funky stuff in custom kitchens,) no EMT, no 555's, no table benders,
> 
> AND
> 
> ...


 
That argument is BULLSH*T.


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## George Stolz (Jan 22, 2009)

SideWorker said:


> Well, if no one was working they wouldn't be getting working dues (dues assessment, whatever your want to call them). And if no one was contributing quarterly dues, where would the money come from?


I'm slow, so bear with me, but if no one was working in the entire union, I would say that the union has utterly failed, no? Why pitch money into a black hole?



> If you can't take the good with the bad then you're probably not going to like the union.


I never claimed any interest in joining the union.



> Just to clarify, you only pay the basic quarterly dues when you're not working. The working dues that normally comes out of your paycheck does not get paid when you are not working.


How many different types of dues do you guys pay?


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

George Stolz said:


> I'm slow, so bear with me, but if no one was working in the entire union, I would say that the union has utterly failed, no? Why pitch money into a black hole?


I don't think it is possible to have that scenario.
The International would force a merger.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Celtic said:


> I don't think it is possible to have that scenario.
> The International would force a merger.


 
I know in some areas locals have merged or been taken over by the larger local or the one with more consistent work.


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## retired 7373 (Feb 28, 2009)

Speedy Petey said:


> No, not at all.
> 
> So you are a legitimate one man EC, yet you are in the union working as well?


 
Petey there are many many electricians doing side jobs in America. Why are you only calling out a union member doing side work and not including all the many many non union people doing side work. These people are also taking work from non union contractors. If you want to point fingers then point fingers at all of them.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

retired 7373 said:


> Petey there are many many electricians doing side jobs in America. Why are you only calling out a union member doing side work and not including all the many many non union people doing side work. These people are also taking work from non union contractors. If you want to point fingers then point fingers at all of them.


Once again because of you limited reading of this forum or your incredible BIAS you do not know, understand or what to know about many post calling out side jobbers open shop or not.

I'd like to think it is because you do not follow all threads in the forum. But as usual your incredible bias shows through.


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## retired 7373 (Feb 28, 2009)

brian john said:


> Once again because of you limited reading of this forum or your incredible BIAS you do not know, understand or what to know about many post calling out side jobbers open shop or not.
> 
> I'd like to think it is because you do not follow all threads in the forum. But as usual your incredible bias shows through.


 

Brian-lol-lol-lol- whaever makes you happy. BIAS- yes I am biased as most of the contractors on this site are biased. Why is my bias not ok, but the bias the contractors have is ok. While I am not really talking about you as you are a union contractor i am talking about most of the non union contractors.Brian I woul like to ask you one question, Why do you stand up for the non union contractors who pay generally lower wages and very few if any benefits. You yourself have stated you make less money than your non union friends.

YES I AM BIASED


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## SideWorker (Aug 2, 2009)

retired 7373 said:


> Petey there are many many electricians doing side jobs in America. Why are you only calling out a union member doing side work and not including all the many many non union people doing side work. These people are also taking work from non union contractors. If you want to point fingers then point fingers at all of them.


He called me out for doing sidework, and I happen to be a union member. I have no doubt that if I were non-union he would have said the same thing.


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## retired 7373 (Feb 28, 2009)

SideWorker said:


> He called me out for doing sidework, and I happen to be a union member. I have no doubt that if I were non-union he would have said the same thing.


 
lol-lol-lol- sideworker-lol- yes you must be correct I'm sure he would have said the same thing if you were a non union contractor.


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## retired 7373 (Feb 28, 2009)

SideWorker said:


> He called me out for doing sidework, and I happen to be a union member. I have no doubt that if I were non-union he would have said the same thing.


 
I've got to say this. Petey called you out because you as a union member are taking work away from his non union buddies. You really do have a lot to learn about these people.


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## SideWorker (Aug 2, 2009)

retired 7373 said:


> Brian I woul like to ask you one question, Why do you stand up for the non union contractors who pay generally lower wages and very few if any benefits.


I'm not going to answer for Brian, but I am going to give my own opinion.

You see what Brian is doing as being wrong because you yourself are so accustomed to toeing the union line that you can't see anything thru your own eyes anymore. It's ok to have your own opinion, even if it goes against the union ideals. It's also ok to look at issues from the other side, I personally try to be the devil's advocate in all issues before making a decision on which side I want to be on. And even after I choose a side (which is a requirement these days) I could still openly agree with the other side on some issues. 



> You yourself have stated you make less money than your non union friends.


 I assume you meant to say "more money" instead of "less"?


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## SideWorker (Aug 2, 2009)

retired 7373 said:


> lol-lol-lol- sideworker-lol- yes you must be correct I'm sure he would have said the same thing if you were a non union contractor.


I think he would. His issues were with not being licensed, insured, and not paying taxes, etc. Or so it seemed. In the end, only he could tell you for sure.


retired 7373 said:


> I've got to say this. Petey called you out because you as a union member are taking work away from his non union buddies.


Petey, do you really hate me because I am an IBEW member? Be honest. retired 7373 here says that you do. 



> You really do have a lot to learn about these people.


 I was one of "these people" for a long time and still am today to a degree (as I mentioned, my sidework is non-union).


I don't really draw the line in the sand anymore when it comes to individuals. The fact that only 20-40 of the best connected people are getting into each of the IBEW locals in my area these days really doesn't help make a "go union!" argument.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

retired 7373 said:


> Brian-lol-lol-lol- whaever makes you happy. BIAS- yes I am biased as most of the contractors on this site are biased. Why is my bias not ok, but the bias the contractors have is ok. While I am not really talking about you as you are a union contractor i am talking about most of the non union contractors.Brian I woul like to ask you one question, Why do you stand up for the non union contractors who pay generally lower wages and very few if any benefits. You yourself have stated you make less money than your non union friends.
> 
> YES I AM BIASED


Because this is America and CHOICE is still legal


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## retired 7373 (Feb 28, 2009)

brian john said:


> Because this is America and CHOICE is still legal


 
WOW You people are amazing- that is all you have to say is this is America and choice is still legal. My God no one ever said you did not have a choice.lol-lol- bias-lol-lol-lol- good night all-lol-lol- i have not laughed this hard in years as i have reading the posts on this site


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## SideWorker (Aug 2, 2009)

I love the lol-lol-lol.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

SideWorker said:


> I assume you meant to say "more money" instead of "less"?


Around here if you are going to work residential, you better be non-union for your own good. Hate to say it, but the local has really screwed the resi guys, and their package is less than what the average quality shop non-union guy brings in, including 401k and health coverage.

I'm sure the hall would like to slap me for bringing this up, but generally it is the truth. Of course there are still some shops out there paying $25/hr with no bennies or retirement where the convicts and dopers work.


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## crazyboy (Nov 8, 2008)

As if I didn't have a bad taste for the unions as it is, reading comments from half of the union members on hear has really left me with a bad taste.


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## retired 7373 (Feb 28, 2009)

crazyboy said:


> As if I didn't have a bad taste for the unions as it is, reading comments from half of the union members on hear has really left me with a bad taste.


 
Crazyboy-so what is your complaint against unions.


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## retired 7373 (Feb 28, 2009)

miller_elex said:


> Around here if you are going to work residential, you better be non-union for your own good. Hate to say it, but the local has really screwed the resi guys, and their package is less than what the average quality shop non-union guy brings in, including 401k and health coverage.
> 
> I'm sure the hall would like to slap me for bringing this up, but generally it is the truth. Of course there are still some shops out there paying $25/hr with no bennies or retirement where the convicts and dopers work.


 
Yes sad to say the IO and the locals have screwed over a lot of people over the years. But most benefit from belonging to the IBEW.


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## SideWorker (Aug 2, 2009)

crazyboy said:


> As if I didn't have a bad taste for the unions as it is, reading comments from half of the union members on hear has really left me with a bad taste.


What half?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

miller_elex said:


> Around here if you are going to work residential, you better be non-union for your own good. Hate to say it, but the local has really screwed the resi guys, and their package is less than what the average quality shop non-union guy brings in, including 401k and health coverage.
> 
> I'm sure the hall would like to slap me for bringing this up, but generally it is the truth. Of course there are still some shops out there paying $25/hr with no bennies or retirement where the convicts and dopers work.



Around here the local ignores residential work? Not the workers fault? and sure as heck cannot blame the employers?

Retired I know you'd like to take the choice out of the hands of workers and employers but, SORRY Big "O" hasn't been in office long enough to take this away. But he will try.


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

SideWorker said:


> Ok, I didn't think you'd come up with any proof behind your allegations. So my statement stands as being true. Next time you call someone out, have a clue what you are talking about.


YES YOU ARE A LIAR!!!!!!!! I will say it to your face!!!

I was a 102 B guy we did PLENTY of service calls,pools,ceiling fans..ETC ETC

All the stuff you say they don't do,I think your totaly full of **** about everything you have said, 

Your licensed and insured MY ASS!!!!!!!!!!


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## SideWorker (Aug 2, 2009)

robnj772 said:


> I was a 102 B guy we did PLENTY of service calls,pools,ceiling fans..ETC ETC


Ya know what, this is just too convenient. I don't believe you, so I am going to ask for simple proof. Tell me the contractor your worked for, I will find out if he is signatory and I will confirm all these small residential jobs that you say you did. 



> All the stuff you say they don't do,I think your totaly full of **** about everything you have said,


 Yes, I said they don't do that type of work, and I stand by it. It's EXTREMELY easy for you to prove me wrong, if what you said is true. Let me know these contractors you worked for, I'll do the work from there to find out. As I said earlier in the thread, if I am wrong I will admit it and apologize. But I am sure that I am right on this issue (I've talked to too many BA's about this to be wrong), and until you show a shred of evidence, I am not going to change my mind.


> Your licensed and insured MY ASS!!!!!!!!!!


 If you say so. To be honest, by your attitude here I am doubting that you even finished your apprenticeship. You really seem like a child.


ETA:


> I will say it to your face!!!


 I guarantee you that you would NOT talk to me like this to my face. 

Most people wouldn't talk like you do at all in the real world, you guys only do it when sitting behind a keyboard.

However, you made the statement, so I'll go along with it. Any time you'd like to discuss this issue in person, I'll be willing to meet you.


ETA2: Sorry for all the edits, but I didn't want to keep making more posts. I just checked your profile, robnj772. I see you're from the Jersey shore. I have a house in Lavallette that I'll be going to 3 or 4 more times this year. I'll be happy to give you my address if you'd like to come. There will be plenty of beer and even some proof of my licensed EC LLC. It's up to you!


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Well said Sideworker, good response.

I personally feel that if a homeowner hires a union shop to hang a paddlefan, then bless their hearts, they deserve to cut out the middleman altogether and just have a quality electrician do the job for them cash, at much savings to the folks.

Now if the homeowner thinks they're going to save a buck and hire the local non-union shop, well, I hope they get their wallets raped by said contractor and a bad taste left in their mouth's every time they see that guy's van around town. I also hope that paddlefan wiggles loose and falls on their bed, prompting a nasty call to the BBB.

This is how I feel, its all feelings, so its okay to be offended. RobNJ, you said you WERE a member, past tense, so what, are you hanging siding now? or did you backslide on the brotherhood?


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## retired 7373 (Feb 28, 2009)

brian john said:


> Around here the local ignores residential work? Not the workers fault? and sure as heck cannot blame the employers?
> 
> Retired I know you'd like to take the choice out of the hands of workers and employers but, SORRY Big "O" hasn't been in office long enough to take this away. But he will try.


whatever Brian.


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## SideWorker (Aug 2, 2009)

miller_elex said:


> I personally feel that if a homeowner hires a union shop to hang a paddlefan, then bless their hearts, they deserve to cut out the middleman altogether and just have a quality electrician do the job for them cash, at much savings to the folks.


 I don't agree with that at all. Electricians should be licensed and pay taxes. 


> Now if the homeowner thinks they're going to save a buck and hire the local non-union shop, well, I hope they get their wallets raped by said contractor and a bad taste left in their mouth's every time they see that guy's van around town. I also hope that paddlefan wiggles loose and falls on their bed, prompting a nasty call to the BBB.


 Why the **** would you hope that? What is wrong with you?


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

SideWorker said:


> Ya know what, this is just too convenient. I don't believe you, so I am going to ask for simple proof. Tell me the contractor your worked for, I will find out if he is signatory and I will confirm all these small residential jobs that you say you did.
> 
> Yes, I said they don't do that type of work, and I stand by it. It's EXTREMELY easy for you to prove me wrong, if what you said is true. Let me know these contractors you worked for, I'll do the work from there to find out. As I said earlier in the thread, if I am wrong I will admit it and apologize. But I am sure that I am right on this issue (I've talked to too many BA's about this to be wrong), and until you show a shred of evidence, I am not going to change my mind.
> If you say so. To be honest, by your attitude here I am doubting that you even finished your apprenticeship. You really seem like a child.
> ...


Your full of it plain and simple.I am not the only one who called you out on it.Celtic also seems to think the same thing I do. I started in the local102 B program in 1992 when I got back from Desert Storm.We did all kinds of RESIDENTIAL stuff. Your comment about union workers not doing that type of work is a lie.

I left the union when I got sick of the politicial bullsh*t. Now I am a licensed contractor in NJ.

AND if you are really licensed how are you a side worker? Do you even know what side work is?? If you have a legit bussiness permit your not doing sidework

Accuse me of being tough behind a keyboad? You want to meet me? Hell you are some deranged lunatic craiglist killer type for all I know ,you have belonged to this site for a week and have almost a 100 posts?!?! 

Log off and get some sun,I think your some union guy who got laid off and have had enough of not working so you are trolling online for entertainment


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## SideWorker (Aug 2, 2009)

robnj772 said:


> Your full of it plain and simple.I am not the only one who called you out on it.Celtic also seems to think the same thing I do.


 And I asked him to provide proof that signatory contractors do small residential work. Like you, he did not have any. 



> I started in the local102 B program in 1992 when I got back from Desert Storm.We did all kinds of RESIDENTIAL stuff. Your comment about union workers not doing that type of work is a lie.


 So prove it. What contractors did you work for? 


> I left the union when I got sick of the politicial bullsh*t. Now I am a licensed contractor in NJ.


 Yeah, I'm kinda sick of it too, but for now I don't have enough business sense to go out on my own. I have a lot to learn.


> AND if you are really licensed how are you a side worker? Do you even know what side work is??


 I have an "A" book and work as a union electrician 40 hours a week. When OT isn't around I do "sidejobs", sometimes at night, mostly on the weekends. 

Let me give you a little tip, getting a license in NJ isn't the big thing you are trying to make it out to be. Any monkey with a little bit of cash for a course and some study material and a little bit of ambition to pay attention and learn some calculations can get it with no problem at all.


> If you have a legit bussiness permit your not doing sidework


 "Sidework" as opposed to my main, fulltime job. Apparently our definitions differ. Yes, I do have an active business permit and I pull permits most of the time when doing sidejobs. 


> Accuse me of being tough behind a keyboad? You want to meet me? Hell you are some deranged lunatic craiglist killer type for all I know ,you have belonged to this site for a week and have almost a 100 posts?!?!


 *YOU* said that you wanted to say it to my face, did you not? Why are you turning it around on me?



> Log off and get some sun,I think your some union guy who got laid off and have had enough of not working so you are trolling online for entertainment


 Well, once again, you are wrong.

I asked you for proof, give me the names of the contractors you worked for. You have made outlandish claims, so back it up. It's very simple, if you're so sure of yourself. Until then, you are proving yourself to be either a liar or just plain wrong.


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

robnj772 said:


> Your full of it plain and simple.I am not the only one who called you out on it.Celtic also seems to think the same thing I do. I started in the local102 B program in 1992 when I got back from Desert Storm.We did all kinds of RESIDENTIAL stuff. Your comment about union workers not doing that type of work is a lie.
> 
> I left the union when I got sick of the politicial bullsh*t. Now I am a licensed contractor in NJ.
> 
> ...


We almost had our first beer summit on the forum! To bad, the man offered you a beer and you still went off on him. Live and let live.


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## SideWorker (Aug 2, 2009)

drsparky said:


> We almost had our first beer summit on the forum! To bad, the man offered you a beer and you still went off on him. Live and let live.


Hey, I tried.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

miller_elex said:


> Well said Sideworker, good response.
> 
> I personally feel that if a homeowner hires a union shop to hang a paddlefan, then bless their hearts, they deserve to cut out the middleman altogether and just have a quality electrician do the job for them cash, at much savings to the folks.
> 
> ...


I am not offended, I just think you are a sad, small person. This post reflects very poorly on you AND your "brotherhood".

If I were a union man THEN I would be offended by this moronic post.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

drsparky said:


> We almost had our first beer summit on the forum! To bad, the man offered you a beer and you still went off on him. Live and let live.


THIS I agree with. 

Yet another thread has sunken into the depths of animosity and ill feelings over this topic. It was OK for a while, but these last few posts are bringing it very near closure. If we can't keep things civil then we'll have to.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

miller_elex said:


> I personally feel that if a homeowner hires a union shop to hang a paddlefan, then bless their hearts, they deserve to cut out the middleman altogether and just have a quality electrician do the job for them cash, at much savings to the folks.
> 
> Now if the homeowner thinks they're going to save a buck and hire the local non-union shop, well, I hope they get their wallets raped by said contractor and a bad taste left in their mouth's every time they see that guy's van around town. I also hope that paddlefan wiggles loose and falls on their bed, prompting a nasty call to the BBB.
> 
> This is how I feel, its all feelings, so its okay to be offended. RobNJ, you said you WERE a member, past tense, so what, are you hanging siding now? or did you backslide on the brotherhood?



And this shows what a POS you are. A low life POS that gives a bad name to the Union and ALL HARD WORKING men. You fall into the category of a bigot, that feels he is better than others. If you worked for me you'd be unemployed in a split second. GAWD YOU MAKE ME SICK


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## crazyboy (Nov 8, 2008)

retired 7373 said:


> Crazyboy-so what is your complaint against unions.


My main complaint right now is the fact that many people are unable to find a job, but yet certain union locals are picketing that they need a minuscule raise when they should just be happy they have a job.


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## SideWorker (Aug 2, 2009)

crazyboy said:


> My main complaint right now is the fact that many people are unable to find a job, but yet certain union locals are picketing that they need a minuscule raise when they should just be happy they have a job.


There's an old saying, $50/hr times 0 hours is still $0. Of course the actual amount per hour changes with time, but the point stays the same. 

Knowing that, I agree that worrying about a raise right now might not be the top priority. Which local are you talking about? I know my local and my sister locals are in the middle of a 3 year contract. Where is this local you are talking about picketing for a raise?


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## George Stolz (Jan 22, 2009)

drsparky said:


> We almost had our first beer summit on the forum! To bad, the man offered you a beer and you still went off on him. Live and let live.


Around here, I think about half the time a beer offer involves a broken beer bottle stuffed up someone else's ass, but that could just be appearances, who knows.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

SideWorker said:


> There's an old saying, $50/hr times 0 hours is still $0. Of course the actual amount per hour changes with time, but the point stays the same.
> 
> Knowing that, I agree that worrying about a raise right now might not be the top priority. Which local are you talking about? I know my local and my sister locals are in the middle of a 3 year contract. Where is this local you are talking about picketing for a raise?


IN the 70's I worked for a contractor that originally was from West VA. His brother was a miner, In their previous contract they were out of work 5 months on a strike. Settled the wage dispute on the next contract they were out 7 months. In a 6 year period they missed 12 months work, and imported coal was utilized. 


The miners use to have a whole building on DeSales St and 17th St NW Wash. DC. They had to sell the building to the Wildlife Federation and now lease a floor elsewhere.

Seems foreign coal is cheaper. Now there are a variety of reasons for this BUT over pricing yourself in the market is one reason.

The Teamsters struck VA concrete during the last recession, When there was very little work. VA Concrete had NO drivers in a very limited work market. So they sold the company. The new owners folded the company opened up as an open shop. 

Boy seems like a win win for the teamsters.

You have to use common sense not the old union mentality of Screw them, we want our raise NO MATTER WHAT. Labor is no different that an owner of a business, you have to look at the market and determine what it can bear. Unions historically have not done this they have had the slash and burn mentality and this will not work in a global market. I know the unions job is to work for the betterment of the workers, but if there is no jobs seems like union will be out of business.


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## SideWorker (Aug 2, 2009)

brian john said:


> IN the 70's I worked for a contractor that originally was from West VA. His brother was a miner, In their previous contract they were out of work 5 months on a strike. Settled the wage dispute on the next contract they were out 7 months. In a 6 year period they *missed 12 months work*, and imported coal was utilized.


 And no matter how much of a wage increase they got, they'll never make up all that lost money from the 12 months of missed work. In the end, who won? That's why the IBEW has a no strike policy, which I agree with.



> The miners use to have a whole building on DeSales St and 17th St NW Wash. DC. They had to sell the building to the Wildlife Federation and now lease a floor elsewhere.
> 
> Seems foreign coal is cheaper. Now there are a variety of reasons for this BUT over pricing yourself in the market is one reason.
> 
> ...


I agree with this as well. I work with plenty of journeymen, like retired7373, who complain that $46/hr in the envelope isn't enough. They would love nothing more than to make $90/hr, yet they don't understand that their greed will price us right out of the market.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

SideWorker said:


> And no matter how much of a wage increase they got, they'll never make up all that lost money from the 12 months of missed work. In the end, who won? That's why the IBEW has a no strike policy, which I agree with.
> 
> 
> I agree with this as well. I work with plenty of journeymen, like retired7373, who complain that $46/hr in the envelope isn't enough. They would love nothing more than to make $90/hr, yet they don't understand that their greed will price us right out of the market.


And I think many of the younger members understand this change. The no strike policy is an excellent idea.

Besides long strikes taking years to even break even for any wages won, the bad publicly and public opinion shapes the unions future for years.

There are some issues that may warrant a strike, such as unsafe work conditions, bur IMO a strike over wages is a lose lose.


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## retired 7373 (Feb 28, 2009)

brian john said:


> And I think many of the younger members understand this change. The no strike policy is an excellent idea.
> 
> Besides long strikes taking years to even break even for any wages won, the bad publicly and public opinion shapes the unions future for years.
> 
> There are some issues that may warrant a strike, such as unsafe work conditions, bur IMO a strike over wages is a lose lose.


Brian, I used to have some respect for you. My true colors have long been known. You take my words and twist them and lie about what I said. I am an avid believer in union labor which includes union contractors. You know nothing about me really. As I said before WHATEVER BRIAN. 

YOu people need to go read the history of the IBEW and how it was founded and what it went through its first years. You people are not union anything you are there for the wages and benefits. Non UNion I can understand and for the most part have no problem with. You want to ride the fence and play your little game on here. You have made some postive and enlighting posts. You are going downhill. Dont tell me what I want or would do. Just because I dont believe all the crap people like you write does not mean I am trying to destroy the IBEW.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

brian john said:


> And this shows what a POS you are. A low life POS that gives a bad name to the Union and ALL HARD WORKING men. You fall into the category of a bigot, that feels he is better than others. If you worked for me you'd be unemployed in a split second. GAWD YOU MAKE ME SICK


I said it's how I feel.

Didn't say it was right to feel that way.

And you'd probably love me, because I don't let emotions get in the way at work.

You sure are grumpy, you need to minimize those spreadsheet windows once in a while.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

retired 7373 said:


> YOu people need to go read the history of the IBEW and how it was founded and what it went through its first years.


Uh, help me out here. What good would that do me in 2009? It's a new day, a new time, and a completely different marketplace.

I do find it interesting that you constantly use "us versus them" words like "You people...". People who like to argue often choose words like that.


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## SideWorker (Aug 2, 2009)

retired 7373 said:


> You people are not union anything you are there for the wages and benefits.


Well... *YES*, what other reason is there?

Why were you union?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

1. Yes I am a grumpy old fart, so what.
2. I try to treat people fair, but when asinine statements are made I have to speak up. There are many excellent electricians on both sides of the fence.
3. If we start dragging up our history, there are many things good and bad. But as Marc said what does that do for us today? Times change and unions need to realize this (some are).


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## crazyboy (Nov 8, 2008)

SideWorker said:


> There's an old saying, $50/hr times 0 hours is still $0. Of course the actual amount per hour changes with time, but the point stays the same.
> 
> Knowing that, I agree that worrying about a raise right now might not be the top priority. Which local are you talking about? I know my local and my sister locals are in the middle of a 3 year contract. Where is this local you are talking about picketing for a raise?


Local 827,although not solely about raises, in NJ, also although not electrical some nursing unions were.


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

crazyboy said:


> Local 827,although not solely about raises, in NJ, also although not electrical some nursing unions were.


827 is verizon,what does verizon have to do with this topic,they aren't even electrical???


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## SideWorker (Aug 2, 2009)

crazyboy said:


> Local 827,although not solely about raises, in NJ, also although not electrical some nursing unions were.


Well local 827 is a different situation.

How are the companies that the members work for (Comcast, AT&T, Verizon, Avaya, AWP, etc.) doing?

Cost of living continues to go up, is it unreasonable to ask for a raise each year? Just because the economy is bad doesn't mean companies aren't profiting, and if they are, what's wrong with asking for a raise?

What you said earlier, that "People should be happy they even have a job" is a pretty dangerous thing to say. You were referring it to not asking for a raise, but it's a slippery slope that goes no where good.


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## SideWorker (Aug 2, 2009)

robnj772 said:


> 827 is verizon,what does verizon have to do with this topic,they aren't even electrical???


Hey, you're back. I assume you're typing out the names of those B contractors you worked for that do small residential work this very moment. Thanks :thumbsup:


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

SideWorker said:


> Cost of living continues to go up, is it unreasonable to ask for a raise each year?


You bet it is unreasonable. A raise should not necessarily be some arbitrary award because the cost of living went up. A raise should be related to your job performance (or at least the aggregate performance of your business unit). A person that feels that they should get a raise just because the cost of living went up has the sense of entitlement that is a cancer to business. The business owner might give a raise on his or her own due to the rise in the cost of living (I hope they do from time to time), but it is not proper grounds for an employee to ask for one. Proper reasoning to ask for a raise would be more like I (we) did this for you, above and beyond, and we intend to keep it up in the future.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

SideWorker said:


> What you said earlier, that "People should be happy they even have a job" is a pretty dangerous thing to say. You were referring it to not asking for a raise, but it's a slippery slope that goes no where good.


Your right, keep asking for more .........

Keep raising the price of electrical work and you will get to spend more time at home doing all the things you want to. :laughing:


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

You bet it is unreasonable. A raise should not necessarily be some arbitrary award because the cost of living went up. A raise should be related to your job performance (or at least the aggregate performance of your business unit). A person that feels that they should get a raise just because the cost of living went up has the sense of entitlement that is a cancer to business. The business owner might give a raise on his or her own due to the rise in the cost of living (I hope they do from time to time), but it is not proper grounds for an employee to ask for one. Proper reasoning to ask for a raise would be more like I (we) did this for you, above and beyond, and we intend to keep it up in the future.


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## SideWorker (Aug 2, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> You bet it is unreasonable. A raise should not necessarily be some arbitrary award because the cost of living went up. A raise should be related to your job performance (or at least the aggregate performance of your business unit). A person that feels that they should get a raise just because the cost of living went up has the sense of entitlement that is a cancer to business. The business owner might give a raise on his or her own due to the rise in the cost of living (I hope they do from time to time), but it is not proper grounds for an employee to ask for one. Proper reasoning to ask for a raise would be more like I (we) did this for you, above and beyond, and we intend to keep it up in the future.


So are you saying that you do 10 times as much work as the men who did your job 30 years ago? You make more today because of how much better you work?

Cause I thought it was cost of living increases...


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

SideWorker said:


> So are you saying that you do 10 times as much work as the men who did your job 30 years ago? You make more today because of how much better you work?
> 
> Cause I thought it was cost of living increases...


I addressed cost of living increases, and the manner in which they should be given. They should never be used as the employees reason for asking for a raise. If you're asking for one, it damned well better be for some performance. I'll be the judge of when you're getting cost of living adjustments. If your expenses are up, so are mine, so just hold your britches.


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## SideWorker (Aug 2, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> Your right, keep asking for more .........
> 
> Keep raising the price of electrical work and you will get to spend more time at home doing all the things you want to. :laughing:


You didn't read what I said earlier, such as:



SideWorker said:


> I agree with this as well. I work with plenty of journeymen, like retired7373, who complain that $46/hr in the envelope isn't enough. They would love nothing more than to make $90/hr, yet they don't understand that their greed will price us right out of the market.


I don't know the situations of local 827, all I asked was if it was unreasonable to ask for a raise. 

What point are you trying to make, that no one should ever ask for a raise?


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

SideWorker said:


> What point are you trying to make, that no one should ever ask for a raise?


So far, the only person that has said that is you.


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## SideWorker (Aug 2, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> I addressed cost of living increases, and the manner in which they should be given. They should never be used as the employees reason for asking for a raise. If you're asking for one, it damned well better be for some performance.


 Well, you're wrong. And like i said, unless your work improved 10 times over the last 30 years, I can't see how you could justify making more than $3/hr with your outlook.


> I'll be the judge of when you're getting cost of living adjustments.


 ONLY in your little world.


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## SideWorker (Aug 2, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> So far, the only person that has said that is you.


You quoted what I said, why did you avoid the simple question. Once again, I asked what point he was making.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

SideWorker said:


> Well, you're wrong. And like i said, unless your work improved 10 times over the last 30 years, I can't see how you could justify making more than $3/hr with your outlook.


The cost of living went up, and employers adjusted their wages. Simple as that. That was an employers decision. A raise can be for a cost of living increase at the employers option. My fundamental point is this, and only this. Let me type this slowly so you can comprehend... An increase in the cost of living is not proper grounds for an employee to ask for a raise. I'll even go back and highlight this in blue. Cost of living increases will necessarily happen. They have to. That's why we don't make $3 an hour. Just don't ask for one.


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

SideWorker said:


> Then prove it's a lie.
> I made a statement and I stand by it. You're calling me out as a liar, so prove it. Show me a union contractor that does any type of sidework that I do. You seem to have a vested interest in this so I assume you'll have your proof pretty quick, correct?
> 
> BTW, I was in the 102 B program for 3 years, I know what type of work we do. I don't need to call Lou.
> ...


well, they are local 400, but Monmouth Electric Service in Shrewsbury does a ton of resi ceiling fans, service changes, hot tub installs, etc...with union men


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

SideWorker said:


> What point are you trying to make, that no one should ever ask for a raise?


Yes, that is it. As matter of fact I work for free.


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

SideWorker said:


> You'll have to argue that with the commando above.
> I am a licensed EC. I own an LLC, I pay taxes, the only thing I am excluded from is workman's comp since I'm a one man show.
> 
> 
> ...


Celtic, what are the 102 bylaws in regards to holding an active license and BP? pretty sure I read that it's frowned upon...


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky is back with his alter ego - SideWorker. Does anyone else see the similarities?


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## SideWorker (Aug 2, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> The cost of living went up, and employers adjusted their wages. Simple as that. That was an employers decision. A raise can be for a cost of living increase at the employers option. My fundamental point is this, and only this. Let me type this slowly so you can comprehend... An increase in the cost of living is not proper grounds for an employee to ask for a raise. I'll even go back and highlight this in blue. Cost of living increases will necessarily happen. They have to. That's why we don't make $3 an hour. Just don't ask for one.


And again, I completely disagree. 

You say that a raise should ONLY be for a performance increase, but that is nonsense. After so much time a person hits a plateau. Your experienced foreman and his crew who could rope a house in 2 days in 1995 most likely did not get any super power to do it faster after they hit that plateau, they are performing the same today as they were 15 years ago. 

While you have increased your bid for the work and the cost of just about everything else in the world has gone up, you say it's wrong for them to ask for a raise just because they haven't increased performance (even if they are beating out every other crew around)? If you decide to pay them the same thing that you did in 1995, they should be fine with that and not ask for a raise?

That makes a lot of sense.


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## SideWorker (Aug 2, 2009)

oldman said:


> Celtic, what are the 102 bylaws in regards to holding an active license and BP? pretty sure I read that it's frowned upon...


 You are not allowed to use the referral system when you have an active business permit.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

SideWorker said:


> ONLY in your little world.


Marc owns the company and as far as I know this is still America. If you worked for him and did not like how he handles cost of living increases it is you that should move on, not Marc that needs to run his business to suit you.

I really can't stand the entitlement attitude that most union members display.


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## SideWorker (Aug 2, 2009)

oldman said:


> well, they are local 400, but Monmouth Electric Service in Shrewsbury does a ton of resi ceiling fans, service changes, hot tub installs, etc...with union men


If you had just said 102 it would have been the proof I have been waiting for :whistling2:


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## SideWorker (Aug 2, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> Marc owns the company and as far as I know this is still America. If you worked for him and did not like how he handles cost of living increases it is you that should move on, not Marc that needs to run his business to suit you.
> 
> I really can't stand the entitlement attitude that most union members display.


You're right, this is America, and since I don't choose to work for him, his statement of "I'll be the judge of when you're getting cost of living adjustments." is completely false.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Peter D said:


> LawnGuyLandSparky is back with his alter ego - SideWorker. Does anyone else see the similarities?


DOH! 

Now things become clear ........... thanks Pete.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

SideWorker said:


> You're right, this is America, and since I don't choose to work for him, his statement of "I'll be the judge of when you're getting cost of living adjustments." is completely false.


Now that is cool and something I entirely agree with. Make your own way, don't use a mob to extort changes in a company just to satisfy your own wants.


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## SideWorker (Aug 2, 2009)

Peter D said:


> LawnGuyLandSparky is back with his alter ego - SideWorker. Does anyone else see the similarities?


That's funny, I have read a lot of what he has said and disagreed with most of it.

I think it's just convenient for you to say we are similar to attack me. In reality most of what I have said here is _against_ the normal union way.

In this issue that everyone has jumped on, all I asked was if it were unreasonable to ask for a raise. 

Yes, I guess I am a horrible person. 

Feel free to list any other things that I am remotely in tune with LawnGuyLandSparky with.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

SideWorker said:


> And again, I completely disagree.


I fully expected that you would. 



SideWorker said:


> You say that a raise should ONLY be for a performance increase, but that is nonsense. After so much time a person hits a plateau. Your experienced foreman and his crew who could rope a house in 2 days in 1995 most likely did not get any super power to do it faster after they hit that plateau, they are performing the same today as they were 15 years ago.
> 
> While you have increased your bid for the work and the cost of just about everything else in the world has gone up, you say it's wrong for them to ask for a raise just because they haven't increased performance (even if they are beating out every other crew around)? If you decide to pay them the same thing that you did in 1995, they should be fine with that and not ask for a raise?


YES! That's exactly what I'm saying. If a person hasn't done anything to better themselves (took classes, got into management, etc), there is no reason for an increase other than cost of living increases that I might give. There is NO REASON for a man to ever plateau. Work done in a day's time is only one metric; one that can't be maintained as we age. There are many other performance measures whereby a plateau should never be reached. If a man does plateau off, so should his pay. Why should I reward a man with higher than normal pay for his efforts just because he's been around a long time? Crazy. If I'm not getting any extra benefit from his longevity, why should he? On the other hand, if I do perceive extra benefit from his longevity, they maybe he will get a merit raise. 



SideWorker said:


> That makes a lot of sense.


Fantastic! Maybe you're coming around to my way of thinking.


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## SideWorker (Aug 2, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> YES! That's exactly what I'm saying. If a person hasn't done anything to better themselves (took classes, got into management, etc), there is no reason for an increase other than cost of living increases that I might give.


 And if you don't give those cost of living increases, if you keep paying him what you did in 1995, what is wrong with asking for a raise?



> If I'm not getting any extra benefit from his longevity, why should he?


Of course you're getting extra benefits from his work, unless you bill out the same as you did in 1995. If he's doing the same work as he did back then, you raise your rates, what's wrong with him asking to be paid a reasonable 2009 rate and not 1995 rates?


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

SideWorker said:


> And if you don't give those cost of living increases, if you keep paying him what you did in 1995, what is wrong with asking for a raise?
> 
> 
> 
> Of course you're getting extra benefits from his work, unless you bill out the same as you did in 1995. If he's doing the same work as he did back then, you raise your rates, what's wrong with him asking to be paid a reasonable 2009 rate and not 1995 rates?


See, you're still talking about cost of living raises. They're up to me and me alone. The only raise an employee may rightfully ask for (and have grounds) is a merit raise. You can ask for a cost of living increase. I'll even go so far as to say that there's probably nothing wrong with you asking. You just won't have proper grounds. If you want to run the company, then maybe you can give yourself a COL raise.


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## SideWorker (Aug 2, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> See, you're still talking about cost of living raises. They're up to me and me alone. The only raise an employee may rightfully ask for (and have grounds) is a merit raise. * You can ask for a cost of living increase. I'll even go so far as to say that there's probably nothing wrong with you asking.* You just won't have proper grounds. If you want to run the company, then maybe you can give yourself a COL raise.


So why the hell did you make such a big issue of my asking if it were unreasonable to ask for a raise while cost of living is going up?


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

SideWorker said:


> So why the hell did you make such a big issue of my asking if it were unreasonable to ask for a raise while cost of living is going up?


Because Marc is an evil, greedy business owner who only cares about himself and his comfort. There, I said it. :laughing:


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

SideWorker said:


> And no matter how much of a wage increase they got, they'll never make up all that lost money from the 12 months of missed work. In the end, who won? That's why the IBEW has a no strike policy, which I agree with.
> 
> 
> I agree with this as well. I work with plenty of journeymen, like retired7373, who complain that $46/hr in the envelope isn't enough. They would love nothing more than to make $90/hr, yet they don't understand that their greed will price us right out of the market.


ironically, I personally see a lot of union guys who are at that scale, go out on their own, and only charge $60-70 to the customer...not even equal to the total package they were making...

why do they feel they are worth that money when working for someone else, but not worth it when they had to sell the plan to the customer directly?


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

SideWorker said:


> If you had just said 102 it would have been the proof I have been waiting for :whistling2:


ignorance is bliss....carry on Forrest...


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> If a person hasn't done anything to better themselves (took classes, got into management, etc), there is no reason for an increase other than cost of living increases that I might give.


This to me is the absolute truth even though it hits me directly, I am getting older and slower, I can be replaced with a younger less expensive person in many of the jobs I do. 

For that reason I look to any way to make myself more valuable, I just spent a week taking IR training and in the fall I am taking some more courses for PV design and installation.

I actually got a hard time for saying this before from an old member here, like bettering myself was wrong. 

If I can't find a way to make myself more useful to the profitability of the company I work for I should not get a raise. It sucks, but that is life, there should not be any 'free ride' just because I was a top producer in the past.


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## SideWorker (Aug 2, 2009)

oldman said:


> ignorance is bliss....carry on Forrest...


 How in the world could you possibly chalk that up to ignorance?

I am the ONLY person involved in that issue who is actually asking for some type of proof, while the blowhards haven't given a single ounce of evidence. The ignorant ones are clearly known.


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## SideWorker (Aug 2, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> This to me is the absolute truth even though it hits me directly, I am getting older and slower, I can be replaced with a younger less expensive person in many of the jobs I do.
> 
> For that reason I look to any way to make myself more valuable, I just spent a week taking IR training and in the fall I am taking some more courses for PV design and installation.
> 
> ...


You are mixing different issues. Yo mentioned getting slower, which changes everything. In that case, maybe it's time to fire you?

As for what I said, if you are producing X amount of work each day and have been doing so for the last 15 years, and your contractor is profiting off of you steadily over those years, what is wrong with asking for a raise as he raises his rates and the world raises their's? The worst he could say is "no" and you could choose to leave.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

SideWorker said:


> You are mixing different issues. Yo mentioned getting slower, which changes everything. In that case, maybe it's time to fire you?


If I can't find a way to make myself valuable in other ways it just might be time for that.

Again it sucks but it is life. 



> As for what I said, if you are producing X amount of work each day and have been doing so for the last 15 years, and your contractor is profiting off of you steadily over those years, what is wrong with asking for a raise as he raises his rates and the world raises their's? The worst he could say is "no" and you could choose to leave.


Nothing is wrong with asking for anything. But in my opinion the company is not obligated to say yes. 

When it becomes wrong to me is when extortion is used to force a company to give more then they would choose to.


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## SideWorker (Aug 2, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> If I can't find a way to make myself valuable in other ways it just might be time for that.
> 
> Again it sucks but it is life.
> 
> ...


So we agree.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

SideWorker said:


> So we agree.


I guess so.

So do we have to hug now?


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## retired 7373 (Feb 28, 2009)

SideWorker said:


> Well... *YES*, what other reason is there?
> 
> Why were you union?


 
sad sad people


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

I find the psychology of unionism more fascinating than anything else. Free entertainment, if you will. :laughing:


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

robnj772 said:


> Your full of it plain and simple.I am not the only one who called you out on it.Celtic also seems to think the same thing I do. I started in the local102 B program in 1992 when I got back from Desert Storm.We did all kinds of RESIDENTIAL stuff. Your comment about union workers not doing that type of work is a lie.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Side...we all know you're full of crap....it's not a secret.:whistling2:




Celtic said:


> Riddle me this.....Have you worked for every single "B" shop in 102's territory in the vast 3 years you were a member?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


...you even know it.





SideWorker said:


> I have an "A" book and work as a union electrician 40 hours a week. When OT isn't around I do "sidejobs", sometimes at night, mostly on the weekends.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You might want to read that article again Sideworker...but before that think about this:
Why would the language be such that you COULD have a BP while employed?
Does that make even the slightest bit of sense to you?
It doesn't to me.




SideWorker said:


> I am the ONLY person involved in that issue who is actually asking for some type of proof, while the blowhards haven't given a single ounce of evidence. The ignorant ones are clearly known.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm guess Belmont Elec. out of Essex County doesn't count...nor do Wolenski or Weaver Elec. in Hudson.

Tell me if I got this straight Sideworker.....small "B" shops only work in the town where said shop is because they are not licensed to work the entire State?


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

SideWorker said:


> How in the world could you possibly chalk that up to ignorance?


Because, in this day and age, believing you live in a bubble, is ignorant


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

SideWorker said:


> Hi Marc, I'm the guy that you just called a liar. Nice to start out on good terms.
> 
> The first was work on the Bridgewater Commons Mall last year.
> Friday was the Data Center located at 61 Walsh Drive in Parsippany.


HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM??????

It seems that 102 LOST the data center you speak of
I just got this off their website

*Members Needed For Picket Duty*

By mar617 - Posted on July 29th, 2009
Tags: All News 
We have lost the Data Center located at 61 Walsh Drive in Parsippany and have set up a picket line on Thursday July 30 and Friday July 31, 2009.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

robnj772 said:


> *Members Needed For Picket Duty*
> 
> By mar617 - Posted on July 29th, 2009
> Tags: All News
> We have lost the Data Center located at 61 Walsh Drive in Parsippany and have set up a picket line on Thursday July 30 and Friday July 31, 2009.


I imagine the picket looked something like this ...










Unbelievable, picket just because the job did not go union.

Too freaking bad.


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

Bob Badger said:


> I imagine the picket looked something like this ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I just spit beer threw my nose......................... :laughing::laughing::laughing:

That was WAYYYY too funny


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

SideWorker said:


> How in the world could you possibly chalk that up to ignorance?
> 
> I am the ONLY person involved in that issue who is actually asking for some type of proof, while the blowhards haven't given a single ounce of evidence. The ignorant ones are clearly known.


Lets see here Celtic,oldman and myself all say your full of it.

What kind of proof do you want? a picture of a guy hanging a fan with a 102 tee shirt on while a guy with a local 400 shirt is reading a copy of the NJ Star ledger with todays date on it??? Seriously are you Lawnguylandsparky just f-in with people?????

EVERY guy who works or has worked in NJ IBEW that has been in this conversation seems to think your full of **** DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND THAT???


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Peter D said:


> LawnGuyLandSparky is back with his alter ego - SideWorker. Does anyone else see the similarities?


 
Funny! I thought you went down to the hall, signed the books, got baptized, and it was you who took on the alias Sideworker!

Stranger things have happened...


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Bob Badger said:


> Unbelievable, picket just because the job did not go union.


Oooooh, I love the picket line, time to go fishing!


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

One of the things I have always found a true test of human nature. Some of the biggest union supporters I have worked with, calling everyone brother, chastising "the man", complaining and calling the hall for minor infractions of other workers and bosses.

Well when they became supers they were total A-HOLES, acting like slave drivers, and those that started their own shops either went open shop or change to open shop soon after opening.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Your observation of human nature rings true.

You think it is tied to a crisis of self-confidence?

What can we do about this? It doesn't seem to be a problem with the plumbers, and I think it is connected with electricians undervaluing their work in the marketplace.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

SideWorker said:


> And I asked him to provide proof that signatory contractors do small residential work. Like you, he did not have any.


Here is some thing for you to view:
http://www.necaconnection.org/

Click on the link that says: Find a NECA Contractor.

I found no less than 10 contractors that would do a "B" job in Passic County with a value of $2000.

$2000 in resi. service work is not a lot of money.


Proof enough?
http://www.necanet.org/PortalTools/...roject_size=2000&project_size_type=electrical


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