# Home Inspector-On His Game



## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

Was doing some repair/replace work for a customer that a HI had written up in his report. The HI said this receptacle appeared to have something jammed or stuck in the lower recep of the duplex as he was unable to plug in his tester.:whistling2:

Something was jammed alright, it was welded shut from overheating!


----------



## Hairbone (Feb 16, 2011)

must have been caused by the carlon box


----------



## BurtiElectric (Jan 11, 2011)

Hairbone said:


> must have been caused by the carlon box


Or the nm not being skinned exactly 1/4 inch


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Hairbone said:


> must have been caused by the carlon box


Or there's two neutrals under one terminal in the panel.


----------



## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Or there's two neutrals under one terminal in the panel.


Yea, the HI had the usual stuff written up too:
JB with no cover

Not enough GFCIs in the kitchen (his tester wouldn't trip the GFCI from the down stream receps :laughing

I think he missed the "double tapped breakers" line they usually write up though.


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Ye Olde HI shuffle....




~CS~


----------



## Hotlegs (Oct 9, 2011)

Improper panel cover screws were used.


----------



## dthurmond (Feb 7, 2011)

I love home inspectors . I have a friend that is a real estate agent and she send me work that there inspectors write up . It is usually all the stuff mention . They are usually easy money . They do seem to miss some important things sometimes .


----------



## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

Wow, and it wasn't backstabbed. Hum.


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Hairbone said:


> must have been caused by the carlon box


You laugh but this is a classic example of the blue box being a sign of a DIY.


----------



## DEelectrician88 (Oct 14, 2011)

The hi found an outside wall mounted gfci fed with uf and no pvc pipe sleeve out of the ground at the beach trailer my rents bought but he missed the air handler being fed with 8/3 so cord and burries in the flower bed lmao and that the main breaker feeding the trailer had a phase badly burning up...


----------



## Neoursa (Sep 22, 2012)

dthurmond said:


> I love home inspectors . I have a friend that is a real estate agent and she send me work that there inspectors write up . It is usually all the stuff mention . They are usually easy money . They do seem to miss some important things sometimes .


They often miss BIG things but do their "show" to buyer to show they know a few things.


----------



## retiredsparktech (Mar 8, 2011)

sbrn33 said:


> You laugh but this is a classic example of the blue box being a sign of a DIY.


 Also the 39 cent leviton recepticle.


----------



## Bob Sisson (Dec 17, 2012)

Home inspectors try to catch as much as we can, as quickly as we can without disturbing much. We rarely get to remove covers on outlets or switches, so our outlet tester gets lots of use. If it doesn't go in due to blockages, paint, non-polarized or other reasons, we write it up. If my tester falls out do to a worn out receptacle, it gets written up. Extension cords used as permanent, Unsecured wires, Homeowner Wiring, new wiring without GFCIs or AFCIs, and the list goes on. We don't know all of what electricians know, but we know the signs of when to call for an electrican to do a complete and thorough inspection. 
Most associations REQUIRE HI's to open the electrical panel (remove the deadfront) and report on what they see. Most will disclaim Zinscos, FPEs or Buldog Pushmatics and recommend an electrician replace the panels due to their inherent problems. 
Again, out job is not to replace an electrician, but to do Triage and call for minor repairs, GFCI's or a full deep inspection by an electrician.


----------



## NacBooster29 (Oct 25, 2010)

That's a fair and accurate synopsis of what the home inspectors do. I must say I've dealt with both kind. When I bought my home the guy was top notch. I met him there, drove my wifes car. Never told him I was an electrician. And he did a real thorough job.it was worth the money.
The guy who did my sisters home inspection was not so sharp. And he started quizing me on electrical codes, like I need to explain x,y,and z. To him. 
I think like anything its a mixed bag. Call around see who does what..


----------



## Bob Sisson (Dec 17, 2012)

Codes are a warning sign..Home Inspectors rarely are code certified (some are) but we understand or have been trained to spot problems. GFCI's are a wonderful example. Supposed to be in kitchens since 1987 -OR- if you replace the outlet. It amazes me that people will spend $30,000 on a kitchen remodel and not put in a $20 GFCI that could save their life. I never mentioned the "code" for them...

Another example are outbuildings with a panel in them. Is it a 3-wire or 4-wire feed...it depends on if there is any OTHER connection to the main house (telephone, cable, water, etc) I don't know the code, but I know the reasoning....

And the list of "code" issues goes on...but they also can be addressed as safety issues, construction issues, etc... (common sense?)

So, I stay away from code and only address safety, reasoning, and large swipe stuff. If someone wants to argue if it was 2006 or 2009 I say call a master electrician.

Someone who wants to spout code is often not sure of himself enough to say "I'ts wrong and unsafe, don't care about code, have an electrician fix it (or OK it in writing)..." or " upgrade that for safety...." If I get dragged into a Code argument, I have lost already as that is not what I am there to do...they can argue code about one outlet for 45 min, or I can do the kitchen, the bathrooms, the basement along with the service drop, Meter box and Entrance cable...

Flippers and remodels are the worst as they don't want to even spend $20 on a GFCI or an extra $.50 for a larger box. (if they put a box in at all)


----------



## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

Bob Sisson said:


> Home inspectors try to catch as much as we can, as quickly as we can without disturbing much. We rarely get to remove covers on outlets or switches, so our outlet tester gets lots of use. If it doesn't go in due to blockages, paint, non-polarized or other reasons, we write it up. If my tester falls out do to a worn out receptacle, it gets written up. Extension cords used as permanent, Unsecured wires, Homeowner Wiring, new wiring without GFCIs or AFCIs, and the list goes on. We don't know all of what electricians know, but we know the signs of when to call for an electrican to do a complete and thorough inspection.
> Most associations REQUIRE HI's to open the electrical panel (remove the deadfront) and report on what they see. Most will disclaim Zinscos, FPEs or Buldog Pushmatics and recommend an electrician replace the panels due to their inherent problems.
> Again, out job is not to replace an electrician, but to do Triage and call for minor repairs, GFCI's or a full deep inspection by an electrician.


When was the last time your 3 light tester found a bootleg ground?


----------



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Haha I always knew home inspectors do not know code but it's funny to hear one admit it.


----------



## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Haha I always knew home inspectors do not know code but it's funny to hear one admit it.


He said he stays away from "Code" and only addresses "Safety".
I thought the NEC was all about safety?


----------



## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

Bob Sisson said:


> Someone who wants to spout code is often not sure of himself enough to say "I'ts wrong and unsafe, don't care about code, have an electrician fix it (or OK it in writing)..."


I am unsure of myself at times but when I am, I resort to the "code" to make sure I'm doing the job I'm being paid to.

I can't let my personal opinion dictate procedure for me. I think it would be unfair to the public if I did.

Pete


----------



## Neoursa (Sep 22, 2012)

Wirenuting said:


> He said he stays away from "Code" and only addresses "Safety".
> I thought the NEC was all about safety?


Code AND safety are somewhat cloudy on when what was considered code. Pre afic? Pre grci? Pre ground? 60 year old wiring that hasn't been hacked into or overloaded can still be ok.

Lots of inspectors work with the realtors to get the sale through and repeat business. If there's too picky and ruin a sale, they won't get referrals.


----------



## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

Neoursa said:


> Code AND safety are somewhat cloudy on when what was considered code. Pre afic? Pre grci? Pre ground? 60 year old wiring that hasn't been hacked into or overloaded can still be ok.
> 
> Lots of inspectors work with the realtors to get the sale through and repeat business. If there's too picky and ruin a sale, they won't get referrals.


I agree with that. 
Last time I sold a my house the HI listed a bunch of garbage he wanted fixed. Didn't work out for him. I am glad that in the past 15 years the inspection if homes has come a long way. 

I ways tell a buyer to hire their own inspector and be there with him.


----------



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Bob Sisson said:


> ...Someone who wants to spout code is often not sure of himself enough to say "I'ts wrong and unsafe, don't care about code, have an electrician fix it (or OK it in writing)....


 I see it the other way around. Someone who cannot back up their concerns with concrete examples of code violations may not have as thorough an understanding of the "whys" and "hows" of a safe installation as they'd like to believe.

-John


----------



## Bob Sisson (Dec 17, 2012)

Let me explain the difference between how a HI might flag something as safety rather than code.

My Favorite is the Outlet on the backside of a kitchen sink wall that is actually in the Dining room.

Which code applies to that outlet is a discussion in its-self..

However, I reach 6', and if I can put a finger on the outlet and a finger from the other hand can touch the sink I say the outlet has to have a GFCI. The TV/Radio/gadget that is plugged in in the Dining room and sitting on the shelf has enough cord to fall into the sink and Zap someone. It needs a GFCI. No mention of code.

Now there ARE Home Inspectors who are code certified, some even multi-code, but even those try to stay away from code. Thats not our job.

We do Triage. If it looks bad, tests bad (in several places) , and has other symptoms, call in the expert. I don't need to know code to recognize Worn SE cables, double taps, over stuffed boxes, reversed grounds, and many of the other things we use to justify calling for the experts...YOU. 

It would be wonderful if every homeowner would call in an electrician, a plumber, an HVAC person, a roofer, a (you get the idea) but they can't afford it, don't have the time, etc... so they call in a Comprimise, a Home who has been trained hopefuly by people like YOU in what to look for to justify insisting on bringing in a licensed electrican (and not a handyman) to fix the stuff we find.

So...if you want more work, get friendly with some home inspectors and keep them up to date on changes and the clues that will send you work.


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Bob Sisson said:


> My Favorite is the Outlet on the backside of a kitchen sink wall that is actually in the Dining room.
> 
> Which code applies to that outlet is a discussion in its-self..
> 
> However, I reach 6', and if I can put a finger on the outlet and a finger from the other hand can touch the sink I say the outlet has to have a GFCI. The TV/Radio/gadget that is plugged in in the Dining room and sitting on the shelf has enough cord to fall into the sink and Zap someone. It needs a GFCI. No mention of code.


I don't think it is the job of a home inspector or an electrical inspector to bring into play their own feelings on what is safe and what is not. Cite a code violation or "Let It Be".


----------



## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

Bob Sisson said:


> So...if you want more work, get friendly with some home inspectors and keep them up to date on changes and the clues that will send you work.


So if we teach a HI, they will send us work?
How about the HI pays an electrician to teach him and then send the electrician work?


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Wirenuting said:


> So if we teach a HI, they will send us work?
> How about the HI pays an electrician to teach him and then send the electrician work?


I get a bit of work from HI's so I am always happy to help them. They find the problem and someone has to fix it. :thumbsup:


----------



## Neoursa (Sep 22, 2012)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I don't think it is the job of a home inspector or an electrical inspector to bring into play their own feelings on what is safe and what is not. Cite a code violation or "Let It Be".


Yep. For buyers it's nice to have the GFCIs added for safety at the sellers expense, but why "should" the seller have to renegotiate this cost when the outlets were installed pre gfci? 

Flipper houses would worry me with the hacks and buried boxes as they rush and squeeze every penny.

A safety concern IMO would be something like having a 3 prong outlet an old box. If its an old house especially with a service upgrade along the way, good chance it wasn't caught. NE region we still have a lot of old BX cabling which seems like everyone confuses with AC and MC.


----------



## Bob Sisson (Dec 17, 2012)

HI's SHOULD spot 3-wire outlets in an old house. If I look in the panel and don't see any ground wires, and No BX, but lots of NEW 3-wire outlets, I dig out the Suretest to test for Bootleg grounds.

As for BX/MC/AC and grounds...one electrican said that unless he can inspect the entire run from outlet to panel, he didn't trust any form of clad ground as there are too many ways to mess it up. GFCI's when in doubt.

As for GFCI's in a pre-GFCI house..I can't say anything other than recomend them for safety upgrades -*if the house is all orriginal-.* BUT... if they renovated post 1978, and they put in nice new shiny outlets...they need to have GFCIs where appropriate. 

Starting to see more AFCI's, and a similar push that replacement outlets should be AFCI protected where appropriate


----------



## Bob Sisson (Dec 17, 2012)

PS... If you want HIs to do things differently...volunteer to speak at a local HI association meeting. You will likely get a free meal, and probably some business.

That way you can teach them the things that YOU think are important. (and get a free meal for doing it)

Be on your toes though. The inspectors who go to meetings for training are the good ones, they pay attention and will give you an earful about the unlicensed electricians and apprentices that moonlight and electricians who will "OK" something verbally because they don't want to be bothered to fix (fill in the blank) and blame it on the paranoid inspector...


----------



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Bob Sisson said:


> Let me explain the difference between how a HI might flag something as safety rather than code.
> 
> My Favorite is the Outlet on the backside of a kitchen sink wall that is actually in the Dining room.
> 
> ...


 
I have two realtors who do exactly that (hire each trade) because they get tired of hiring a HI, then he finds a long list, then hire a tradesman, they tell the HO half the list is bogus. After three or four of those, they start to just hire the trades independantly to start at the first inspection. So keep on "not needing" to know code. It gives us plenty of work.


----------



## Bob Sisson (Dec 17, 2012)

Hiring individual trades is the -better- solution. But not many people can afford that, or have the time to make it happen. (the average contingency period is about 5 days) So they compromise and get a HI. 

We are a compromise and we know that.

There are good HIs and there are bad HIs. (are there no bad electricians?)

There are some Code Certified HIs, even some multi-code ones. 

However, that is not what we are supposed to do... we are TRIAGE. We are not the doctors.

We have to look at the landscaping drainage, the exterior, the doors and windows, the gutters and the roof (we walk a lot of them) the sidewalk and the driveway. The Hardware on the front door, doors and windows (we open most of them) the floors, walls, ceilings, toilets, sinks, tubs, showers, sump pumps and ejector pumps, ovens, stoves, dishwashers, Heating and cooling systems (including forced air, steam, hydronic, ground source, Swamp coolers, and electric baseboard) Plumbing including booster pumps, Well systems, water heaters (gas, electric, HP, tankles and in-boiler tankless) electrical systems from the Service Drop to the outlets. AND do it FAST (the last inspector did a house this size in 2 hours, why are you taking so long....) and cheap (a friend said he would look at the house for $99...)

I have had a few electricians as clients...they were surprised at what I saw Electrically that they didn't... and even more surprised at all the OTHER stuff I saw...

Code is important. I agree 100%. Code is the Rule. No Argument.

There is an ongoing discussion among Home Inspectors about code...and getting certified as a "next level". Many of us take the classes so we know the material, but don't quote code...because a class does not make us "experts."

So the good inspectors will be found on Forums like this asking questions and reading, and reading...and in classes, and seminars and more..

If you see inspectors routinely getting something wrong TELL THEM. The good ones will appreciate it. (the bad ones can go to....) If you see something that you think inspectors should pay more attention to...SPEAK UP. Volunteer to speak at a local association meeting and make it better.

Better yet, JOIN a HI association as an affiliate and attend some of their meetings. Most local groups will welcome any trades person and even let you attend a meeting or two for free becasue they want your input.

What you will find is that the Inspectors who belong to a group generally are the best, most trained, most professional. Some -ARE- licenced electricians, plumbers, etc... The ones that don't belong to any trade group, don't go to classes, seminars, confernces (or hang out here) are the one we -ALL- have complaints about...


----------



## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

Bob Sisson said:


> I have had a few electricians as clients...they were surprised at what I saw Electrically that they didn't...


*facepalm*


----------



## chewy (May 9, 2010)

jza said:


> *facepalm*


Ha ha ha have you seen my stapler? I cannot find my stapler.


----------



## JohnR (Apr 12, 2010)

You know Bob, I really appreciate that you keep coming back and answering for you trade. Instead of just getting angry. You may BE angry, I don't read that, but you seem like a real ok guy to me.

One of the things that I see HI's getting maybe wrong a lot is the double taps. Many new breakers say they are listed for double taps. Also, it gets tiresome to have to explain to the HO that just because the code has changed, and the HI is being trained on the new codes, that they are not required to change what was previously code when installed. 

I understand what you say about new shiny 3 prong outlets in a pre '78 house and GFI's. I am talking about telling the HO that it is illegal to have bx in the house, that the 2 prong outlets need to be updated, fuses are no longer legal, (whoops that last is an insurance rant. sorry) that all fixtures in closets need to be enclosed, etc. 

These are existing circumstances that should be recommended to change, but please write "recommend changing" not does not meet code. This is one reason why we keep telling HO's that the HI in question really wasn't on his game.


----------



## Bob Sisson (Dec 17, 2012)

You hit the nail on the head about TRAINING.

We TRY to teach HIs that nothing is "illegal" and code is not retroactive, and much more, but some don't listen (or go to classes) 

They way I was taught was "new" code only applies if you touch it. We often "recommend for additional safety" that units be upgraded, but that is as strong as we SHOULD word it. 

I find it amusing when is see a "doubled tapped" SquareD breaker. The ONLY one that most of us know will accept two wires. People (not electricians) go to great pains to put both wires under the same side of the saddle. 

I have heard of HIs saying a FPE, Zinsco or Bulldog Pushmatic panels are "illegal" as well. They are not, they are just "latent defects" and should be replaced for safety concerns'.

Got to get ready for the day...got a Monster (3900 sq.ft) to inspect


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

OH, now you have gone and done it. People around here LOVE and I mean LOVE Pushmatics. Best panel ever. God forbid you change one of those out.


----------



## daveEM (Nov 18, 2012)

Hey Bob, I kid you not. I have just bought off eBay a new/old stock 50 amp DP Pushmatic breaker.

Can't wait till I get it (SB this week) so I can replace that 40 year old thing there now.

Almost ahead of its time being a 'bolt-in' panel and all.

Now the bad guy before me (fixing? another unit in the complex) couldn't bother to find a 50 and just hacked in a 60. Of course the switch box is rated 50 amp max. He/she did leave a hole for extra air circulation tho.










Other than above what are your concerns with pushmatics? Some believe the old 'thermal trip' wasn't so great but that's my problem here, - the 50 is tripping and my load is a little over 40 amps when the range is cycling. Loose connection post on the old breaker tho. Rattles when she pulls current.

By the way I'm replacing a 50 for* Unit 8*. I've not talked to the owner yet of the above (Unit 10).


----------

