# Wagner Repulsion - Induction Motor



## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

If the brushes pull back in it has to be slowing down. What measurements have you taken that enabled you to determine it's not slowing down? It's also possible your flyweights are ticking on something and get slapped back. Maybe something got bent or dislodged when you had it apart? Ordinarily, these old traction motors have most of the clockworks visible without taking it apart.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

Are the brushes moving back to start position or is the rotor moving toward the brushes?


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## Galt (Sep 11, 2013)

Are the bearings good?


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

Here’s one


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## Geoker (Apr 15, 2018)

Thank You all for your time and knowledge.
I have just started the motor again, same result of course. 
I agree totally with your point MD Shunk that it seems only less speed would allow the brush holder/ brushes to overcome spring pressure and move back in. The time this happens after it comes to speed is only a few seconds, and the motor is so quiet once the brushes lift it is hard to hear a speed change. * Perhaps the running coils are the issue?* I did not in fact take the centrifugal mechanism apart, just cleaned up a lot of rust, lubed and gently freed it up - - - as is your experience.

Micromind and Galt - - - It is the brushes moving, there is no end play at all and the bearings are tight and good, they run very silently. I just cleaned and lubed them.

Wirenuting - - Yes ! My motor is exactly like this, except it is 2 HP. I have it wired for 240v . It was this wired way and since all the color was gone from the lead wire insulation as well as half the insulation itself - - - I connected the same two leads together as I found it. Clearly the higher voltage hook up per nameplate. 

Thanks again - - - if ya'll were here it would be fun talking about this.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

A 2hp

http://vintagemachinery.org/photoindex/detail.aspx?id=15577


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

I know we have a couple of these motors here at work. What building they are sitting in is a good guess... We haven't used them in many years.. I'll kind of look around and see what I can find..
In the back of my mind I seem to remember an old timer telling me that if the motor didn't get up to speed it would do as MD said.
Also if the governed spring was going bad it would also do it.. I seem to remember that he also told me about bad washers??
Since I'm now the old guy at work, I don't have anyone else to ask... But maybe I'll locate an old one and take a look.. We used them mostly for the old chlorine AC machines. These were taken out of service years ago..


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

More of an online manual


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## Galt (Sep 11, 2013)

The motor starts as a straight repulsion motor at the same time the brushes lift off the commutator something has to short all the segments of the commutator together so the rotor turns into a squirrel cage and the motor runs like a more modern induction motor.


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## Geoker (Apr 15, 2018)

Thanks again for your reply. I do hope to solve this, mostly because I admire the design ethic of the mfr.s in those days. This sure was not meant to be a throw away. It has been in a far corner under the bench in my Dad's shop, and I think for quite awhile before he passed in 1976. Anyway it has taken me a long time to even look at it, so I for certain can spend a little time on it now.

If the governor spring were weak, maybe the brushes would lift too early, prior to op speed, and re- engage after the speed got slower? They definitely move away very positively. Perhaps this is the problem.
A spring would probably be the most easy part to approximate.
Thanks Wirenuting for taking the time,the diagram is very helpful. and to Galt for the op info.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

Also of these dual-voltage motors have 4 leads arranged in a vertical line. 

If so, usually the top is L1 and the bottom is L2. For high voltage, splice the 2 center leads. For low voltage splice the 2 top ones and splice the 2 bottom ones. 

A really simple series/parallel connection. 

Also, on most RI motors, rotation is determined by the physical location of the brushes. The entire brush assembly is rotated a bit to change rotation.


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## Geoker (Apr 15, 2018)

Micromind, thank you so much for your time and attention. You have pinpointed the issue - - - which I finally realized this evening. The orientation of the brushes. I had not thought at all about this earlier, but finally noticed a scribe mark on the ring that clamps and locks the brush holder. Unfortunately I have no reference as to its original position, but after trial and error the motor will now start and run. I am sure it will need some fine tuning - - and it is VERY sensitive as to position, changing speed with little movement. A bit more, say 30* will change direction of rotation. I did have the leads hooked up properly. I let it run for a half hour or so while sipping a cool libation! 

Wirenuting, your answers have been so helpful, and I thank you. 

I have another similar motor, a Delco 1 1/2 HP that is running just fine on my air compressor, and has been since my Dad put it on an maybe 1966 - - - it for sure wasn't new then. Our family had a small commercial refrigeration business and he came across a lot of equipment.

I have enjoyed our conversations, glad I found this site!


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## itsunclebill (Jan 16, 2007)

It doesn't make much sense that the motor comes up to speed enough to lift the brush rack and then slows back down. The marks for setting the brush rack position that determine rotation are at the position that produces maximum starting torque. A slight offset would reduce torque but once the motor is spinning fast enough to lift the brush rack the "necklace" that shorts the segments should be fully in contact with the rotor segments and it sounds like maybe this isn't happening. 

I kind of suspect you will find that the motor will have some issues starting under load. 

The inside of the commutator where the necklace makes contact should be polished as should the contact area of the necklace. The necklace gets pitted after long use and was often replaced back in the day when the motor needed to be serviced. One issue is that new necklaces haven't been available for a long time. Another is that the spring that keeps the necklace compressed till rotation forces contact with the rotor is a critical component and one that is too strong or too weak will move transition from repulsion to induction operation to a point where the motor can't accelerate beyond a certain speed. They aren't available either unless you can find new old stock someplace and fabricating one is a hit and miss deal. The motor design minimizes the the crap that can get into the necklace "guts" but certainly doesn't prevent it. If it's gunked up in there the motor just isn't going to run right even if you do manage to get it up to a speed where the brush rack stays lifted.

I used to have a number of round steel pieces that a necklace would fit onto and could be clamped so it could be put into a lathe chuck and be spun and polished. Cleaning up a necklace without something like that is a very long process as they often contain 2 or 3 time the number of pieces as there are segments in the commutator.


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## Geoker (Apr 15, 2018)

Well I keep learning about this design - - - It will now run with the brushes lifted for at least 1/2 hour - - - at which time I have disconnected it each of the three times. I did nothing to the necklace, did not take it out or clean it in any way.
I cleaned/ lubed the bearings on the shaft since they were tight and looked good. Reading your post kind of makes me think I should leave the necklace well enough alone.

The motor runs with some noise, which doesn't seem to be bearing related unless there is a lot of thrust load. The instant power is removed it is very quiet, near totally silent. Reconnect and the noise begins again. Also the noise can change intensity from one start to another. Sometimes hardly there and others louder. Perhaps a contact issue with the necklace as you described? 
Maybe letting it run awhile is something I might try. I will check the rpm today. 

Thank You.


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## itsunclebill (Jan 16, 2007)

These motors run reasonably quiet as long as the bearings are in good shape, which yours seem to be. The odd noises you hear may well be caused by partial contact of the necklace with the commutator. Any of the slugs that don't make any or full contact with the necklace will make weird fields in the metal laminations that cause vibrations, and cause the wire in the slots to try and move around. Both of these things will work together to eventually cause the rotor to fail.

The reason more of these built like a brick outhouse motors aren't still around has a whole lot less to do with the crappy insulation available when they were built and a lot more to do with what you are seeing. If the rotor is still good it won't be for long if it gets used with necklace problems.

Obviously, your motor, your call. And my guess.


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## Geoker (Apr 15, 2018)

Well, I only plan to keep this in the shop on a small pallet, really cause it reminds me of my Dad. I'll say it looks great now with new paint and lead wires. 
I of course would like to have it jam up perfect. However it will only be started now and then to demo how it works. It does work now. It would be far better to not do irreparable damage by trying to clean up the parts you mention. I would then lose the "picture is worth a thousand words" advantage. 
I will trust your judgment and I interpret that as saying that I don't stand a great chance of making this any better. I don't want to break something made of "unobtainium".


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