# Low-voltage 3-way double dimmer switch, does it exist?



## DipsyDoodleDandy (Dec 21, 2009)

*lv*

You won't get 2 in if its a carlon box. It will melt the hell out of it

http://www.lutron.com/lutron/glossary.asp


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

So what is a 'double dimmer'?


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## lysforude (Sep 27, 2009)

By "double" I mean a double switch, with a control for each of the two LV circuits (the headache that is induced by having only a single gang box available)


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## egads (Sep 1, 2009)

Stack the single gang boxes. 
Explore, with the homeowner exactly what they are after. How will they use this set up? I imagine we are talking about a hall that has pathway lighting and some accent or art lighting. It may be possible to mount a remote controllable dimmer, like a Smarthome product and then have a wall mounted controller in the single gang place. Those controllers can either switch (and control dimming) to 6-8 different devices or switch "scenes" or preset dim levels.


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## ibuzzard (Dec 28, 2008)

Lysforude,your profile indicates you're a designer,and not a professional within the electrical field.You should be asking this on one of the DIY forums.Merry Christmas.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

I don't think you need to try to find a 'double' three way dimmer. 

I think you should find another electrician.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Unless it's trimwork that will be in the way of the double-gang box, I'd try to re-arrange some of the framing to get a 2-gang box in there. Either that, or stack two single-gang boxes, as suggested. A double-dimmer is hard enough to source, let alone a low-voltage version. I'm reasonably certain they don't even exist.


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## lysforude (Sep 27, 2009)

Thanks all, that was what I thought (and dreaded).

@ibuzzard - sorry that you feel I have trespassed into your secret society, but I doubt you really meant to imply that lighting design is not relevant to the electrician profession


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## ibuzzard (Dec 28, 2008)

Lysforude,vague as the term "designer"is,and as inundated as we've been by DIY'ers,we're a little more sensitive lately to non-professionals.Are you a real lighting designer-then my apologies.As an electrician,I am often involved in some lighting design,but am not a Lighting Designer.In your profile,you indicated you were interested in buying and remodeling Eichler homes. If you're a hands -on guy,remodeling and flipping houses,this forum is not for you.The terms of use you signed off on clearly state this.Steve


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

ibuzzard said:


> Lysforude,vague as the term "designer"is,and as inundated as we've been by DIY'ers,we're a little more sensitive lately to non-professionals.Are you a real lighting designer-then my apologies.As an electrician,I am often involved in some lighting design,but am not a Lighting Designer.Prior to you editing your profile,you indicated you were interested in buying and remodeling Eichler homes. If you're a hands -on guy,remodeling and flipping houses,this forum is not for you.The terms of use you signed off on clearly state this.Steve


Let it be known that lighting designers are welcome here. :thumbsup:


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> Let it be known that lighting designers are welcome here. :thumbsup:


Maybe they will learn a little about the products they sell and install techniques that cause problems. Not the OP nessacarly.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

nolabama said:


> Maybe they will learn a little about the products they sell and install techniques that cause problems. Not the OP nessacarly.


 
Uh.......



lysforude said:


> .............The electrician -- who admits he doesn't have experience in low-voltage -- thought he could simply use a 3-way double dimmer for regular 110V...............


I think this is a case of the electrician didn't know what the he11 he was doing, and now expects the OP to bail him out. Hence post #7.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

nolabama said:


> Maybe they will learn a little about the products they sell and install techniques that cause problems. Not the OP nessacarly.


That's sorta what electricians are for. Lighting designers design, and we figure out a way to make it work. :thumbsup: Find me any designer, consultant, engineer, or architect that nails the plan dead-nuts every time, and I'll show you a man that doesn't really exist. There's always a puzzle or two for the electrician to figure out.

In this particular thread, I'm a little bit skeptical about whether the OP is an actual lighting designer or not, but I just didn't want to let anyone get the impression that lighting designers aren't welcome here. They certainly are.


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

I am happy to see a lighting designer that cares to find out. I have worked with some that do not know anything about how their product is installed and did not care to find out. 

And I agree the OP should get another 'lectrician.


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## DipsyDoodleDandy (Dec 21, 2009)

*tandem dimmer*

I may have found one and it even has a remote control

scoll down to next to last one at bottom and see if that will work

http://www.lutron.com/CMS400/page.aspx?id=16993


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

Dipsy that looks like a tandem dimmer with fan speed selector. I think the OP needs a tandem,3-way, low-voltage, dimmer. good luck to him


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## DipsyDoodleDandy (Dec 21, 2009)

*yea*

that was just something to give him a number to call. I'm not even really sure how it's all wired, but I would just try to find a tandem LV single pole dimmers (if the swithlegs are in that box) and use regular 3 ways in the other location. I really don't even know where the hot's and switchlegs are from the post so it's hard to figure that out, but, we had several cases like the above and there is a way to make it happen. Especially, with all the gadgets out there. I'll keep surfing for a tandem lv 3 way dimmer just in case. Does that sound right nolabama?

Find out where the hots and switchlegs are lys


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## egads (Sep 1, 2009)

From the same site, this page:

http://www.lutron.com/cms400/page.aspx?mn=1841&id=16991#DualDimmers

This model: MA-L3L3- (color)

Is the dual dimmer model. I know I have used one on a low voltage load, but without digging through old invoices I have no idea if they make a magnetic low voltage model. Perhaps the LV load I used it on was electronic. In that case I often just use a regular dimmer unless there are problems that require a specific electronic low voltage one. 

This unit:

http://www.smarthome.com/2486DWH8/K...Scene-Control-Keypad-with-Dimmer-White/p.aspx

fits into a single gang box, includes a dimmer for one load (including magnetic LV but NOT elect. LV) and will then control several other dimmers, making a virtual 3-way situation. In fact, in a remodel situation, where control of the dimming is desired in more than one location, I would not bother to run 3-way runners at all. Using remote control dimmers ends up being cheaper. (the price listed in the link above is retail, dealers get them cheaper) I just wish Smarthome made this unit with less buttons for situations like the OP has. Not everyone is as geeky as the designers thereof. However, you can program each button to have any combination of dimmers come on at a preset level. (scene lighting)


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## egads (Sep 1, 2009)

For those of you not from California, an Eichler refers to a homebuilder who did tracts of mid century modern homes with mostly flat roofs, built on slabs. Here is a link from an article about adding A/C to these houses. However, the photos show what it takes to add and redo electric. It's either what you see, or run conduit underground outside. You cannot cut into the slab as it has in floor heat. 

http://www.eichlernetwork.com/spot_hvac.html

A Eichler should not be "flipped" by just anyone. Some flippers do more damage than good. I live in a tract of similar houses by a known architect and it's pretty sad when 3/4 of the folks at the open house are saying: "what were they thinking?"


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## Mike_586 (Mar 24, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> Unless it's trimwork that will be in the way of the double-gang box, I'd try to re-arrange some of the framing to get a 2-gang box in there. Either that, or stack two single-gang boxes, as suggested. A double-dimmer is hard enough to source, let alone a low-voltage version. I'm reasonably certain they don't even exist.


If it does, it would likely be exotic and exorbitantly expensive.



MDShunk said:


> That's sorta what electricians are for. Lighting designers design, and we figure out a way to make it work. :thumbsup: Find me any designer, consultant, engineer, or architect that nails the plan dead-nuts every time, and I'll show you a man that doesn't really exist. There's always a puzzle or two for the electrician to figure out.



I don't have any problems with engineers designers or the rest per say. I do have problems with ones that are on a high horse yet don't posses the knowledge or talent to justify their attitudes. Those are a dime a dozen.

There are engineers, architects and designers that do indeed get almost all of it right most of the time. I honestly can't think of one of those that I've known that didn't actually spend some time working in the field trying their ideas hands on to see how they work in reality.

As with our trade, we have the bulk of the population being installers and only a tiny fraction being true electricians who know how to do it, why it works and how to troubleshoot when things go wrong. The same holds true for other professions, the vast majority go through the motions and only a fraction are true professionals in their chosen fields who go the extra mile who take pride in what they do and do what it takes to become the best as what they do.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Mike_586 said:


> As with our trade, we have the bulk of the population being installers and only a tiny fraction being true electricians who know how to do it, why it works and how to troubleshoot when things go wrong. The same holds true for other professions, the vast majority go through the motions and only a fraction are true professionals in their chosen fields who go the extra mile who take pride in what they do and do what it takes to become the best as what they do.


And that's just the way it is. I guess after a while, it bothers me less and less. Just make it work. 

Reminds me of a kitchen I did, at an architects personal house, where a lighting designer was involved. Normally, I like working with lighting designers very much. 

This kitchen remodel had pages and pages of detail prints. I really didn't expect anything less in an architects home. What I didn't expect is that the lighting designer's lighting plan for the ceiling was just an "idea". Silly me, I scaled the lighting plan and installed all the cans and boxes to scale. The layout had me scratching my head a bit, but what do I know? I'm not a lighting designer. Maybe it would be cool in the end?

Few days later, got a scathing phonecall from the lighting designer. She was so worked up, she was actually having a hard time breathing and forming complete sentences. Not to mention that her heavy Korean accent made her words almost unintelligible. She basically asked me why I put the fixtures where I put them. I told her I scaled the print, since everything else to do with the kitchen had details out the wazoo. 

Lighting designer lady tells me she just freehand sketched them on a print, and the plan was not intended to be scaled. "Thanks, lady". She had me wondering, at this point, why she even bothered making a print. Long story short, the architect customer completely understood and paid me to relocate everything. I never really saw the lighting designer after that. I'm not sure if she got fired or was just too ashamed to show up anymore.


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## DipsyDoodleDandy (Dec 21, 2009)

*link*



egads said:


> For those of you not from California, an Eichler refers to a homebuilder who did tracts of mid century modern homes with mostly flat roofs, built on slabs. Here is a link from an article about adding A/C to these houses. However, the photos show what it takes to add and redo electric. It's either what you see, or run conduit underground outside. You cannot cut into the slab as it has in floor heat.
> 
> http://www.eichlernetwork.com/spot_hvac.html
> 
> A Eichler should not be "flipped" by just anyone. Some flippers do more damage than good. I live in a tract of similar houses by a known architect and it's pretty sad when 3/4 of the folks at the open house are saying: "what were they thinking?"


Thanks for finding that link egads. Great link on the AC! :thumbup:


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## lysforude (Sep 27, 2009)

@egads: Really interesting links, thanks for digging them up. I wish I had a better understanding of this entire home automation area - or that the HO would hire someone with such ;-)

I am curious about your statement "In that case I often just use a regular dimmer unless there are problems that require a specific electronic low voltage one." It almost sounds like a redemption for the poor electrician on the job :blink: Are you saying that regular 3-way dimmers can often be used if the LV load is electronic? 

The Lutron MA-L3L3 would work if it had been capable of multilocation control; but the specs says single pole. Is there some creative way around that I am just not aware of? 

BTW, there is an interesting discrepancy between the informal description of the Keypadlinc and the detailed how-to in the manual.
On one hand they say, "This wireless technology uses the homes existing wires to transfer commands to and from other INSTEON-compatible devices such as plug-in modules, wall switches, thermostats and even low-voltage control."
On the other hand, the 2486D Manual says, "Don't use KeypadLinc Dimmer Switch to control low-voltage lighting, fluorescent light, or motors. These are inductive loads, which KeypadLinc Dimmer Switch may not be designed to control. Use a non-dimming INSTEON On/Off (relay) switch instead. " (http://wiki.smarthome.com/index.php?title=Preparing_to_Install_KeypadLinc_Dimmer_Switch )

Just a few words of clarification: getting wires to my single gang box is not a problem; this home has crawlspace (I.e., not the Eichler problem). The area where the box is installed is between two windows so the only expansion option would be to add another single gang on top of it. That is doable, but it would be a bit of an eyesore - and aesthetics is really important in this job.




egads said:


> From the same site, this page:
> 
> http://www.lutron.com/cms400/page.aspx?mn=1841&id=16991#DualDimmers
> 
> ...


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## DipsyDoodleDandy (Dec 21, 2009)

*hey*

While your here. You say it has to be switched from the hallway. You mean dimmed or switched. This is a 3 way system I'm assuming. You say multipoint?? Do you know if the switchlegs are in the hallway or the hots and/or both? Sometimes I've noticed regular dimmers work fine on LV even though the specs say they wont'.


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## lysforude (Sep 27, 2009)

When I say switched I mean switched AND dimmed. The (desired) switch would be a 3-way dimmer on a 2 switch run (foyer), and a 3-way dimmer at the end of 3 switch run (hallway). I don't have the detailed electrical specs here so I don't recall if the switch is closer to the transformer or to the fixtures for either run.
We are in California with Title24 ruling the installation. HO doesn't care for dimmers at all, but love the low voltage fixtures I had proposed. And since LV is not high efficiency, we need to have dimmers all over (or occupancy sensors, which is an option I am looking in to to get out of this dimming quagmire)


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

One Graffik Eye and one Lutron Keypad should do the trick, although expensive. Is this in a master bedroom or kitchen? You could then control all lighting in the zone/s, have multiple switch locations, (1-gang) and have whatever moods you want.

Either that, or notch.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

egads said:


> For those of you not from California, an Eichler refers to a homebuilder who did tracts of mid century modern homes with mostly flat roofs, built on slabs. Here is a link from an article about adding A/C to these houses. However, the photos show what it takes to add and redo electric. It's either what you see, or run conduit underground outside. You cannot cut into the slab as it has in floor heat.
> 
> http://www.eichlernetwork.com/spot_hvac.html
> 
> A Eichler should not be "flipped" by just anyone. Some flippers do more damage than good. I live in a tract of similar houses by a known architect and it's pretty sad when 3/4 of the folks at the open house are saying: "what were they thinking?"


Eichlers can be a real cluster, not just for an electrical remod. I do like them, the style of home that is. In general, just leave them as is with a little bit of lipstick. I've worked on a bunch of them and for the most part, well, people just f them up.


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## egads (Sep 1, 2009)

The keypadLinc has a dimmer in it, but it does not have to used. However, the dimmer(s) it controls would have to be on the "load" end of a three way circuit. All (well most all) INSTEON dimmers and controllers will require a neural. So the three way runners can be re-identified as hot and neutral to get power to the load end of an existing 3-way circuit. 

I don't know about the low voltage load on the dimmer built into the KeypadLinc. I do know that their dimmers can be used on a magnetic low voltage load. I'm wondering if it's a typo. They don't make a KeypadLinc with a relay instead of a dimmer. (Stupid because often the KeypadLincs are mounted by the front door and outside lights are often fluorescent.) 

So to use INSTEON, you need to know exactly where the loads switch. And no INSTEON dimmer will work right with an electronic transformer. 

But yes indeed, many electronic transformers can be used with regular non low voltage dimmers. Your problem seems to be wanting to be able to have dimming control from multiple locations. (?) If not, then there are stacked three way switches. Also called combination devices. 

http://www.levitonsupplies.com/ledewh23sw56.html


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