# In 2020 NEC they closed another very useful at times loophole. Probably somebody at Mike Holt was to blame for this.



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

I can just bet you it was. It's been discussed here before so probably some dual membership butthead decided to put in for a code change on it so he could be a beaming proud superhero at Holt. 

Using a recess light fixture opening to install a j-box in order to extend wiring is not allowed any more unless the j-box is a component of the luminaire. On remodel work in concrete buildings this method has served me fabulously on several occasions to relocate light fixtures or make a solution to get new wiring to places the building did not plan for to have. Gee Thanks Wizards. You have come to the rescue to solve another non problem in the electrical trade. Thanks. Now I can put in ugly as F*** round or square j-box covers in brand new remodeled ceilings because of you which will look like crap and the people paying will be extremely pissed off at. You sir are an electrical hero. You made the world so much better when you convinced a mentally challenged code making panel to eliminate a fairly good solution to the electrical remodeling section of the trade. Aloha, and Mahalo ! 


*(N) 410.118 Access to Other Boxes.
Luminaries recessed in ceilings, floors, or walls shall not be used to access outlet, pull, or junction boxes or conduit bodies, unless the box or conduit body is a integral part of the listed Luminarie..*


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

macmikeman said:


> I can just bet you it was. It's been discussed here before so probably some dual membership butthead decided to put in for a code change on it so he could be a beaming proud superhero at Holt.
> 
> Using a recess light fixture opening to install a j-box in order to extend wiring is not allowed any more unless the j-box is a component of the luminaire. On remodel work in concrete buildings this method has served me fabulously on several occasions to relocate light fixtures or make a solution to get new wiring to places the building did not plan for to have. Gee Thanks Wizards. You have come to the rescue to solve another non problem in the electrical trade. Thanks. Now I can put in ugly as F*** round or square j-box covers in brand new remodeled ceilings because of you which will look like crap and the people paying will be extremely pissed off at. You sir are an electrical hero. You made the world so much better when you convinced a mentally challenged code making panel to eliminate a fairly good solution to the electrical remodeling section of the trade. Aloha, and Mahalo !
> 
> ...


The answer is quite simple. Use the PeterD method of No Permit, No Problem. Government snooping in the domicile by “The Man” is resolved.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

460 Delta said:


> The answer is quite simple. Use the PeterD method of No Permit, No Problem. Government snooping in the domicile by “The Man” is resolved.


What these code-making idiots don't understand is if more dumb rules are enacted, there will be a proportionate decrease in the amount of work that is permitted and inspected.

And of course, just about every local jurisdiction will readily adopt every new code with no thought of negative consequences when less regulation would likely result in more income.


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## Buck Parrish Electric (Jan 8, 2021)

We use the recessed 6 inch can lights all the time to pull wires from point A to B... 
But some companies take advantage of the loopholes. The apartment and condo construction industry are the worst. I could see them installing a j box at the rough in with the intent of removing the light for access. (Is that what you're talking about) 
That would be a heck of a trouble shooting ordeal. I could see the electrical contractor figuring out a way to save 10 ft of wire. They might do that in every apartment. 
But I agree, for the NEC to include 2x2 or 2x4 drop in lights is insane. Sheet rock vs drop cieling lights needs to be clarified in the 2023


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

It isn't a safety issue, it's a design issue. Therefore it shouldn't be in there. 

Might be a PITA for the next guy doing some TS, but like you said comes in handy to retrofit stuff. Done it myself in the past as last resort to opening up ceilings.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Isn't this going to be a huge problem when you convert recessed lights to LEDs and remove the can to install the driver above? With that rule not only cutting the drywall is necessary but you can't patch it, you'd have to leave an access panel?


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

micromind said:


> when less regulation would likely result in more income.


Isn't this the case in almost every situation?


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I've used this a few times myself. I try not to do it, but it sure is helpful if I need to. If you have to take out portions of the fixture to access the JB on a recessed light, what's the difference? When I heard this in code update, all I could do was roll my eyes.


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## Quickservice (Apr 23, 2020)

460 Delta said:


> The answer is quite simple. Use the PeterD method of No Permit, No Problem. Government snooping in the domicile by “The Man” is resolved.


My thoughts exactly... Plus, the lazy inspectors around here are rarely going to know the difference. The NEC has evolved into the same kind of insanity that goes on in D.C. every day.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

It’s a trick I learned here and it has served me well. I also learned here that it’s a good idea to leave a note at the panel (sometimes I have, sometimes I haven’t).

I have also put splice boxes in closets, behind doors and behind return air vents. Is somebody’s nanny going to say that’s wrong too?


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

What I don’t understand is that using the factory box is okay. If you pull the can to access the factory box, what’s the difference if there’s a separate box above it? It’s actually more accessible than the factory JB.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Typical older condominium building- concrete walls and ceilings with a light fixture boxes recessed into the concrete ceiling. Remodels we do usually involve dropping the ceilings a few inches with metal framing and drywall so now we can put either recess cans in or wafer lights. The existing conduit runs buried in concrete can be turned into a junction box, at least they used to be it seems, by fixing a recess fixture dead under them so now you had a method to feed several new lights instead of the single bug catcher in the middle of the room. GC's and owners are going to be furious about this rule when we adopt 2020. There is now no good way to feed those new lights except to make a bunch of extension boxes down to a flush finish (If possible) in the drywall ceiling covered with a blank plate. It is not making anything safer period. It makes it more jackass. The only good that came out of this code change was some self patting on the back by the original submitter and some pushers at the code making panel. Hurrah hurrah. Saviours of the planet. I have a whole bunch of other names I won't add here. Most of em the forum system will turn into ****'s.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

I guess you could put fake diffusers or access panels in the ceiling. Depending on quantity, it could look ugly. Your only response would be that you don’t make the rules, you just obey them.

The code makers seriously need guys like you with real world experience, mac.

ps. You can say “asshole” here. Feel free. 😊


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

99cents said:


> The code makers seriously need guys like you with real world experience, mac.


The code makers are the same people that run our country with their nonsense legislation and laws. 

THEY DONT LIVE IN THE SAME WORLD WE DO! It’s easy to make stupid code changes like this when your not the guy doing the work. Just like it’s easy to write laws & legislation when your not the one who gets affected by it.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

There are a lot of big time hacks and trunk slammers out there that ruin it for the rest of us. That is why they keep having to make these stupid rules. Someone sees something dangerous and wants to protect people from the Hacks. I am sure many of us had to put a splice box above a recessed light when doing reno work. I know I have. It is either that or rip open the ceilings and walls which is not going to happen. Sure it is nice to replace the cable but many times the cables are stapled or you cannot find where it is ran to or how.


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## Buck Parrish Electric (Jan 8, 2021)

splatz said:


> Isn't this going to be a huge problem when you convert recessed lights to LEDs and remove the can to install the driver above? With that rule not only cutting the drywall is necessary but you can't patch it, you'd have to leave an access panel?


We just get the LED trim that fits the can. No need to take the can out.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Read what I posted , if the driver is for the light then it can be placed above. If it is an unrelated splice box it cannot. 

And yea, I hadn't even thought about the impact to lift out tile drop ceilings. Further proof of stupidity from the code boys. Or maybe by the proper name to call it,,,,, mayhem ............... I would be ashamed of myself if I sat on that table....


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

One more thing. After 50 yrs in the trade I have seen lots of code cycle backpedal changes. It seems to me though when they do that , instead of just cancelling the badly written change , they alter it into something equally as stupid in order to save face. They pretty much don't admit we made a mistake and we're gonna fix that now, nope its changed slightly and made more stringent usually. In my mind I keep seeing a dope in a business suit or should I say dopes in business suits stuffing pie into their mouths while hammering this code out. They haven't had a screwdriver in their hands (outside of product conventions in Vegas) in forty years or more. And also only worked in one area of the trade meaning pipe and pull wire. Clueless on everything else....... All this is my imagination. I am not naming any names. So relax. Fat ass.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

It's not so easy to implement change at the code level, but easier at the state level as far as amendments go. Do you have a electrical contractors group there with sway at the legislative level? We do and I think it's been realistic and fair to all involved as far as amendments go.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

nrp3 said:


> It's not so easy to implement change at the code level, but easier at the state level as far as amendments go. Do you have a electrical contractors group there with sway at the legislative level? We do and I think it's been realistic and fair to all involved as far as amendments go.


But if you have a non functioning or woke state legislation then you might be stuck in limbo or building code purgatory.


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## blueheels2 (Apr 22, 2009)

Lol I just got away with this in Cary NC about a month ago. Well I think I did. Pretty hard for the inspector to miss the j- box.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Switched said:


> It isn't a safety issue, it's a design issue. Therefore it shouldn't be in there.
> 
> Might be a PITA for the next guy doing some TS, but like you said comes in handy to retrofit stuff. Done it myself in the past as last resort to opening up ceilings.


Switched? How are you, my friend? It’s great to see you back.


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## Quickservice (Apr 23, 2020)

macmikeman said:


> Typical older condominium building- concrete walls and ceilings with a light fixture boxes recessed into the concrete ceiling. Remodels we do usually involve dropping the ceilings a few inches with metal framing and drywall so now we can put either recess cans in or wafer lights. The existing conduit runs buried in concrete can be turned into a junction box, at least they used to be it seems, by fixing a recess fixture dead under them so now you had a method to feed several new lights instead of the single bug catcher in the middle of the room. GC's and owners are going to be furious about this rule when we adopt 2020. There is now no good way to feed those new lights except to make a bunch of extension boxes down to a flush finish (If possible) in the drywall ceiling covered with a blank plate. It is not making anything safer period. It makes it more jackass. The only good that came out of *this code change* was some self patting on the back by the original submitter and some pushers at the code making panel. Hurrah hurrah. Saviours of the planet. I have a whole bunch of other names I won't add here. Most of em the forum system will turn into ****'s.


How many other *dumb* additions or changes have we had just like this…. It is pitiful.


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## Quickservice (Apr 23, 2020)

MHElectric said:


> The code makers are the same people that run our country with their nonsense legislation and laws.
> 
> *THEY DONT LIVE IN THE SAME WORLD WE DO! * It’s easy to make stupid code changes like this when your not the guy doing the work. Just like it’s easy to write laws & legislation when your not the one who gets affected by it.


*VERY, VERY WELL SAID!!! *


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Reasoning? future electrician: " I had to search kinda hard , and had to take out the recess can in the middle of the kitchen looking for a J-box...... " 

Homeowner? Yea well tough $hit cause I got my kitchen fixed and remodeled and looking really sharp now with all the new lights and stuff and am perfectly happy with it. What was the big deal?


Two sides to every coin Code Boys, two sides. Try thinking before you send in those proposals. Nothing is dangerous in the way it was allowed before. But you just had to send in your brilliant idea for a code change cause that is what makes you swell up with pride. There is a lot I can say about you, but I'm gonna hold my tongue.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

blueheels2 said:


> Lol I just got away with this in Cary NC about a month ago. Well I think I did. Pretty hard for the inspector to miss the j- box.


We are not on the 2020 for residential work.


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

Just remember, today’s safe, code compliant, electrical installation is tomorrow’s ticking time bomb.


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

Dennis Alwon said:


> We are not on the 2020 for residential work.


You guys are on different code cycles between resi and commercial work?


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## blueheels2 (Apr 22, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> We are not on the 2020 for residential work.


What? I didn’t see that in the amendments or doi website?


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

blueheels2 said:


> What? I didn’t see that in the amendments or doi website?



Go Here and notice the excluding one and two family dwellings

*



2020 State Electrical Code

Click to expand...

*


> *(2020 NEC with State Amendments; excluding one- and two-family dwellings, see Amendments 10.1 & 10.2)
> 
> Effective: *November 1, 2021


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## blueheels2 (Apr 22, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Go Here and notice the excluding one and two family dwellings


I missed it when looking at the amendments. I was in such a hurry to check applicable sections I never read the intro/header until now.
Thanks for letting me know .


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