# 300 amp fuse blowing



## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

I think this turned into a rant. lain:

A long time customer of ours recently underwent a major renovation.
I consulted with the engineer during the design phase, provided data logging and suggestions for the riser.
They have a 120/208 100kw standby unit with a 350 amp breaker.
the existing service into the space is parallel 1/0 with 300 amp fuses.
Our study for the renovation suggested the new mechanical loads could not be supported by the existing incoming 300amp. I was not interested in the build-out working for an unknown GC, I assumed they addressed the problem. 

A couple months ago, they called us out. The generator would not turn off.
They had blown a 300 amp fuse. The fuse was replaced by our generator guy and they were supplied with one spare. A week later, they blew another fuse, changed it themselves.

I went by to investigate and found, they were pulling 289- 295 amps and the interior of the disconnect was hot to the touch. The fuses were so hot you couldn't put your finger on them for more than a second or two.

Sure enough, they had not addressed the additional mechanical loads and just added them to the new panelboard they installed.
They used polaris taps on the load side inside of the generator ATS, what a mess.

I brought them a spare 400 amp fuse to work around the nuisance fuse blowing and sure enough, they had to use it.

Of course we can only schedule an outage during overnight hours. This will cause me to work a crew overnight and lose my day work the following day. 

I have done this more than once and it look like I am not making any extra money working overnight.

The guys get paid 8 hours OT and are off the next day. For them, its just an extra 4 hours pay, for me, Ive lost an entire scheduled day of work.

I see zero incentive for us to work a planned overnight job.

I have been doing these planned outages on Thursday nights, the guys get Friday off.
they get 32 and 8 OT.

Question for contractors, foremen and electricians doing the work.
How are you structuring your after hours work.
What makes it worthwhile?


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Mr. Rockafeller, 

Charge more. A lot more. Duh. 

Sincerely, 
J. P.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Did a lot of this and it was always billed accordingly!


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

splatz said:


> Mr. Rockafeller,
> 
> Charge more. A lot more. Duh.
> 
> ...


Thanks but, that doesnt help.
what have you found to work? What is practical ??

Twice as much isnt enough. It seems to lose money.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Southeast Power said:


> Thanks but, that doesnt help.
> what have you found to work? What is practical ??
> 
> Twice as much isnt enough. It seems to lose money.


Number one I would not want to work that overnight without making double time, but that's up to your guys. 

I guess this would be a good example of hard costs and soft costs. 

Your hard costs appear to be minimal, in fact you appear to even or ahead: 

If you're charging double for the labor, you're billing 48 instead of 40.

If you're paying double for the overtime, you're paying 48 instead of 40 and you're a little ahead for the week. If you're paying time and a half for overtime, you're paying 44 instead of 40 and you're still 10% ahead for the week. 

You're shutting down Friday so they don't have to. It's a pain in the ass, it disrupts your schedule to have to reschedule the Friday work, and there are actual real dollar costs with both of these, it's just hard to put a number to it. So just pull a number out of your ass. 

When you tell them the number, remind them that you told them this would happen, the GC failed to address your load study findings, the HVAC guys made a mess of your nice box, and your other customer is highly pissed at being put in second place. 

In other words try to make it look like you're really mad about making more money and getting a three day weekend.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

I agree about charging much more for off hours work; you can justify the charges numerous ways.

However, there is nothing to be mad about, and more importantly, it is counter productive and a business losing venture to impart in any way to your customer that you are mad about it. You are providing a service for a price, and you are happy to do it for a handsome profit. The fact that the customer created the situation wherein the off hours work was required is entirely their problem, and should be paying for the additional work/premium charges/whatever. 

If, on the other hand, you have decided you don't want to do off hours work, then that is a business decision that you can make for yourself, and happily decline the work.

Everything is negotiable.

your results may vary.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

I might be overly concerned with every one involved.
#1 I have a responsibility to make the company enough money so that we can continue to provide services and pay employees

#2 I have to cover my nut efficiency enough to remain reasonably competitive.

#3 keep our people paid well for their work 

I would ultimately like to put the guys on a guaranteed 40 with the OT as extra gravy for all


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

Any hours worked between midnight and 6am should be classed as a emergency call out. 

Billing should be at least 4 times normal pay after midnight. 

Any hours worked by your guys should be counted towards the next days hours. So lets say you are there till 2am and the next work day starts at 7am. The workers are back on the clock at 7am but do not need to turn up until 9am. (you can add a minimum of say 3 hours as soon as you go past 12pm) 

Company's expect to pay to get there own way. They already expect to pay there own guys extra for a call out so why would they expect the contractor to work for less.

As long as the company is aware of the cost before you do the job its there decision where to set the downtime window for the job to be done.


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

Charge triple. Pay the guys double.


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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

I guess I'm confused. 



Your guys are still putting in 40 hour weeks, the same amount of work is still being done in a given week.



How can you be losing money if they are still putting in their 40 assuming you're crunching the numbers to determine how much to charge out for after hours work to cover their OT expenses? This seems to me you just need to spend some time with a calculator?


We run the numbers and quote it to the customer. We have more than enough work to go around, so I don't really sweat it too much if the customer doesn't like the price. I have little sympathy for chinese fire drills orchestrated by GC's or customers.


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

As I sit here on a job on Sunday we charge customers time and a half for off hours, double in some cases. BUT our rates are already higher due to billing essentially all our work at emergency rates (service techs) above and beyond OT rates. I can hire contractors, bill their time plus markup for convenience billing and still be ahead.

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Hold on I thought of something, you could make the cost of the disruption a little more formulaic rather than pulling it out of your ass. 

You have to charge them to cover whatever overtime / overnight premium you pay; that's easy. 

Now, you also have to recoup the lost productivity for cancelling other work Friday. That's actually not so hard to put a number to. You'll have to work those eight hours next week to catch up; so you'll have to work 8 hours overtime next week, too. Next week's customers shouldn't have to pay that premium, the 300 amp fuse blowers should. 

So the cost for this overnight shift 

regular 8 hour shift rate PLUS 8 hour overnight labor premium PLUS 8 hour regular overtime premium

SO let's say your base rate is $125/man/hr and your hourly wage is $40 and you're paying $80 / hr overnight. (Your bill rate covers all kinds of overhead and etc. that doesn't change because you have to work this night shift.) 

$125 * 8 = base = $1000
($80 - $40) * 8 = labor premium = $320 
($40 * .5) * 8 = premium to make up lost time = $160 

That comes to $1480 to cover your cost - just shy of time and half. 

To me if you're charging double your usual bill rate, that seems like enough to pay for costs AND the agita.


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## matt1124 (Aug 23, 2011)

Working overnight like that, don’t forget to add in costs for the pizza delivery and strippers. That’s about the only way I’d convince my crew to work overnight anyway...


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Boy, Suncoast , you seem to have really grown as a company in the last - ohh I don't know, maybe YEAR AND A HALF?????. CHARGE LARGE. Enough to give all the guys a nice fat bonus. And then take yourself out to a nice stone crab dinner. 
It's best to go to one of those places that sit on docks on the back bays with a hole in the table to toss the crab shells and shrimp tails into the water below. I used to work as a waiter at one up in Cocoa Beach, but I cannot recommend it cause it's gone now. The food was really really great though.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

macmikeman said:


> Boy, Suncoast , you seem to have really grown as a company in the last - ohh I don't know, maybe YEAR AND A HALF?????. CHARGE LARGE. Enough to give all the guys a nice fat bonus. And then take yourself out to a nice stone crab dinner.
> It's best to go to one of those places that sit on docks on the back bays with a hole in the table to toss the crab shells and shrimp tails into the water below. I used to work as a waiter at one up in Cocoa Beach, but I cannot recommend it cause it's gone now. The food was really really great though.


Its a tremendous volume game right now. It takes about three months to know if Im making any money at all.
I remember sweating over buying a rigid threaded coupling or a roll of #10. 
I walk these jobs and see hundreds and hundreds of dollars of materials sitting on carts and in gang boxes.
I have no idea how many ladders and benders, fish tapes or battery tools the company owns, the job has paid for all of it a few times over.
Quite frankly, I dont want to pay to store any of it and just want it all to disappear at the end of the job.
I just want a couple of nice new trucks out of it and a couple of two man crews to run service work. 
Screw these jobs. Ill take COD service work and day.


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## matt1124 (Aug 23, 2011)

Southeast Power said:


> Its a tremendous volume game right now. It takes about three months to know if Im making any money at all.
> I remember sweating over buying a rigid threaded coupling or a roll of #10.
> I walk these jobs and see hundreds and hundreds of dollars of materials sitting on carts and in gang boxes.
> I have no idea how many ladders and benders, fish tapes or battery tools the company owns, the job has paid for all of it a few times over.
> ...


That’s how I started too. One man show doing service, returning those 2 unused BR120 breakers so I’d have that $10 for a capacitor on the next call. Needed help now and then and brought on a full time guy eventually. Now it’s trucks and tools and jobs drag on for months because I thought I needed new construction and remodel work to stay busy year round. I get to thinking about the outlay of materials over months and think “you know if I just did 6 service calls per day...”


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

was that parallel 1/0 copper 75 degree? if so did you happen to measure the temperature or do you have a guess


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Southeast Power said:


> Its a tremendous volume game right now. It takes about three months to know if Im making any money at all.


I read this and I am like 



> I have no idea how many ladders and benders, fish tapes or battery tools the company owns, the job has paid for all of it a few times over.


Oh then I am like lain:

It sounds like the job pays so much that you're so far ahead it doesn't matter - you know you're making money, you just don't know how much you're making. 

I don't have to deal this in my own work much but I see some of the big guys sweating over this. It is incredible how some of these guys are doing tens of millions of dollars of business a year and are not sure if they are solvent, and have NO IDEA where they are making money and where they are losing. 

Some of the more together contractors have pretty good job costing in place, they know how much they've spent, they'll know how much they made or lost at the end of the job, may even know what parts of the job the estimating was on the money or not. 

Only a very few companies seem to have a real idea of their cost to complete as the job progresses and know ahead of time if they're winning or losing, and can bring it back on the rails if they get behind. 



> Quite frankly, I dont want to pay to store any of it and just want it all to disappear at the end of the job.


Now I am all :clap:

If you can afford to treat equipment like materials, I salute you: my compliments.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

when you grow a company, the management has to grow as well.

when you lose track of inventory, supplies, and tools, it is the beginning of the end. you cannot afford to lose track of materials on projects, because the amount of money you make depends on the material goods spent in relation to the amount estimated, just as the labor, just as the equipment.

I hope you turn it around.

your results may vary.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

wildleg said:


> when you grow a company, the management has to grow as well.


That's it right there! :thumbsup: 



> when you lose track of inventory, supplies, and tools, it is the beginning of the end.


It might not look or feel like the end because you can fly blind and make money - sometimes a LOT of money - then one day out of the blue BOOM a big one runs away on you, and that's that. 

It's the big but not that big shop, the one that's growing into the big work, that's most vulnerable, some of the bigger dogs could eat it if one goes off the rails and be OK if they don't make a habit of it, the little guy can be tanked by one job. 



> you cannot afford to lose track of materials on projects, because the amount of money you make depends on the material goods spent in relation to the amount estimated, just as the labor, just as the equipment.


I'd have to agree here. Unless the margins are so ridiculously great that you can't lose, but that's not often the way it is with electrical construction.


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

Farm it out.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Wiresmith said:


> was that parallel 1/0 copper 75 degree? if so did you happen to measure the temperature or do you have a guess


It was so hot inside of the disconnect, I opened the door and propped it open. It was working fine until some goody two shoes closed the door. 
The fuse blew. Now they have a 400amp fuse in there.
I suspect it will remain that way until the great fire.


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

Southeast Power said:


> It was so hot inside of the disconnect, I opened the door and propped it open. It was working fine until some goody two shoes closed the door.
> The fuse blew. Now they have a 400amp fuse in there.
> I suspect it will remain that way until the great fire.


i know it's hard to guess for most people and i have know reason to expect you would be able to, but would you guess it was over 167F/75C? (the hotest part of wire insulation)


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Its not as bad as it sounds.
Its just not what I enjoy.
Tools and trucks are all paid for.
Good tools will pay for themselves many times over. 
I see all of the material invoices every morning via email. Most are peanuts except for gear and feeder wire.
Payroll is paid off every week.
I know that my draws will pay the bills plus plus, and We carry little or no debt.
Retainage for sure is going to be a year out. (GOVERNMENT WORK)

I would be happy to close out with a couple sets of battery drills/impacts, two sets of hand benders, two 6' ladders and two 8' ladders and one small gang box.
Nice if I could stock a couple vans with some material.

I know the tools in good condition will become parting gifts. Ill try to get those in the hands of a foreman and a Jr. Journeyman I can groom for service work.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Most of our one-night overnights are Saturday nights. Even though we do quite a few they're usually spaced out to were we aren't out every weekend. Usually they are 12 hour min per person too so that makes up for it. 





Southeast Power said:


> I dont want to pay to store any of it and just want it all to disappear at the end of the job.



I'm like that too, I'll look around as we're rolling a job up and just think, **** where am I gonna stash this, that and that other thing. 



I know too many EC's where their "Shop" is really just a big ****ing disorganized warehouse and they got a shanty town of conex boxes in the yard filled with crap and leftovers.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

Speaking as an hourly wage earner (also known as a victim.....), overnight work is almost never worth it. 

One company I used to work for (used to.....) would make sure I had less than a 40 hour week so they didn't have to pay me overtime (used to work for.....). 

Even if I do get the OT pay, it takes a while to recover form an overnighter. 

Not worth it. 

The only way I'd do an all-nighter these days is if I personally end up with substantially more than normal OT or even double-time. 

It's very easy for a contractor to see $$$$$$$ for night work but VERY few of them see it from the employees viewpoint. 

While they are in a nice comfortable bed, we're out there trying our best to not get hurt or killed because we're dog-dead tired. 

Not worth it.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

......


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Why can’t you plan the OT on a weekend?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Southeast Power said:


> Of course we can only schedule an outage during overnight hours. This will cause me to work a crew overnight and lose my day work the following day.
> 
> I have done this more than once and it look like I am not making any extra money working overnight.
> 
> ...


So on emergencies, we do not lose the next days pay, lose the labor of course but the customer has to cover the wages.

Plus our OT rate in more than DT rate, material markup higher, they cover travel to and from.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

brian john said:


> So on emergencies, we do not lose the next days pay, lose the labor of course but the customer has to cover the wages.
> 
> Plus our OT rate in more than DT rate, material markup higher, they cover travel to and from.


I think I Like the DT-1/2 rate. It solves problems.

They just called to ask us to repull the feeder.
I might put them on generator and do most of it during the day and do the swappie swap at night.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Triple time is not at all unusual for night work. Makes up for the next day's lost productivity and gives the workers and the contractor a little extra each to make up for the hassle. 

Sometimes things that seem like they should be night work can be done on Sunday daylight hours. Work a Sunday through Thursday and nobody's sleeping schedule gets messed up.


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