# T12 phase-out



## Fluorescent Phanatic (May 20, 2011)

I am interested in everyone’s opinions on the T12 phase-out coming July 2012. Its not a complete phase-out since there are exemptions. How will end users adjust?

Some questions:

Will consumers just switch to CRI exempt T12 like CWX?
How much resistance is there for commercial/industrial users converting to T8?
How many will jump to T5 or LED?
Will major retail chains stockpile cool white T12? What about industrial suppliers (ie Grainger)?


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

This phase out can't come fast enough for me. I haven't put a t12 ballast or fixture in in ten years. Plus the T8's just keep getting better.


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## Rockyd (Apr 22, 2007)

Also, people chiming in, do the T8 and T5 seem to do betterr in cold weather? If so, to what temperature (see where I'm at)? Thanks in advance.


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

Fluorescent Phanatic said:


> I am interested in everyone’s opinions on the T12 phase-out coming July 2012. Its not a complete phase-out since there are exemptions. How will end users adjust?
> 
> Some questions:
> 
> Will consumers just switch to CRI exempt T12 like CWX?


They're not recommended except where color rendition is CRITICAL and energy use comes second or third.

Those lamps exempt on CRI basis typically puts out 2/3 the light for same wattage. You'll get around 40 lumens per watt on magnetic ballast. 

The phosphor also has shorter after-glow than normal phosphors, so flicker will be very noticeable on line frequency with these lamps.
40W CWX actually puts out less light than 34W CW while using more power.

There are 3100lm F34T12 and 3600lm F40T12s, which exceeds 89LPW and continue to exist. Philips version is called Advantage T12

Either way, you'll use the same amount of power. One way gives you less light and very high CRI. The other way gives you more light than now and give you more light. 



> How much resistance is there for commercial/industrial users converting to T8?


Very little. T12s are no longer installed new for general purpose commercial lighting. They do not work reliably below 60F. (40W T12 is already banned). Magnetic T12 ballasts are no longer made/outlawed. Electronic T12s are available for spot replacements. T8s already have significant market penetration as they're cheaper than T5 and all you've got to do to make them work in T12 fixtures is to change the ballast out. T5s have different socket and they're shorter, so you can't retrofit as readily. Supposedly there are long nose sockets to let T5s fit in T8/T12 fixtures, but they'll look weird because the ends will look dark. It's pointless as well, because T5s don't really have any advantage over T8s without using them in fixtures with optics designed to take advantage of thinner lamp.



> How many will jump to T5 or LED?


T5 and T8 are about the same in performance. F32T8s are the defacto standard output lamps, replacing F40T12, F34T12, F96T12. T5s are defacto HO lamps and non-HO T5s are used in fixtures where T8s are too fat. T8HOs are seldom used.

F96T8s are out there, but they have the same handling and logistical challenges as any other 8' lamps and they're getting less and less common. Not every service van can fully accommodate cases of 8' lamps. Even large places like Wal-Mart are going with 4' lamps and many 8' fixtures are 4' lamps put back to back.

LEDs? Who the heck knows. They're barely comparable in performance and lumen maintenance right now and costs many fold more.



> Will major retail chains stockpile cool white T12? What about industrial suppliers (ie Grainger)?


No. They're bulky to store and they're not particularly high value item and not worth the inventory carrying cost to store something with retail price of $30/case occupying the space of a punching bag.



Rockyd said:


> Also, people chiming in, do the T8 and T5 seem to do betterr in cold weather? If so, to what temperature (see where I'm at)? Thanks in advance.


Instant and programmed start typically starts to 0F, some down to -22F. If they'll mainly be used in cold ambient temperature, they'll need to be put in a jacket(those slide on cover used to protect broken lamps from scattering shards) or covered fixture to keep the lamps out of draft or they'll never reach full output.


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## LightsRus (Sep 12, 2010)

*re: T12 Phase Out*

Not sure if this helps, but...
A Light Fair this week, Osram Sylvania was showing their Pentron HO XL Ecologic 54W T5 lamps. They now rate it at 60,000 hours at 12 hours per start. and 93% mean lumens through that life. 
– 94 Lumens per Watt 
– 93% Lumen maintenance 
– Peak lumen output at 35°C (95°F) 
• Long life 
– Up to 40,000 hours life 
• Greater luminaire design flexibility 
– Small lamp profile allows for more 
compact, high light output options 

• Nominal 2', 3', 4', and 5' 
– Approx. 2" shorter than T8 lengths 
– Miniature bi-pin bases 
• TCLP & RoHS Compliant 
• Lead free glass 
• Made in the USA


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

LightsRus said:


> Not sure if this helps, but...
> A Light Fair this week, Osram Sylvania was showing their Pentron HO XL Ecologic 54W T5 lamps. They now rate it at 60,000 hours at 12 hours per start. and 93% mean lumens through that life.
> – 94 Lumens per Watt


They've got T8 version too and I'll restate that performance of T5 and T8 are almost identical, so pick whatever fixture you like and assume that neither is superior over other. 

If you're retrofitting, T5 isn't advisable, because of length difference (which means you absolutely must change sockets to special long nose ones) and ballast for T5s are more expensive. 

Since T5 lamps are usually operated on PRS, we'll compare PRS data. 
55,000 hours @ 12hrs per start. 96% lumen maintenance. 92 LPW. 

http://assets.sylvania.com/assets/d...P XL.bc74ac49-8157-44fa-8138-461c57ffc768.pdf

There's no increased efficacy with "T5 technology" as some marketers sing though. *T5s are NO more efficacious than T8s.* It does appear so on data sheet though, because of differences in testing standards. 

Reason being, lamp spec sheet for the USA market is based on testing conditions prescribed in ANSI testing conditions. 

Recent magnetic ballasts are quite efficient, so the main reason we use electronic over magnetic isn't really because electronic ballast itself is more efficient. It's because the lamp efficacy improves about 10% on HF operation. 

It just so happens that ANSI standards call for 60Hz testing on T8s and T12s and 25,000Hz for T5s
Back when T8s came out, magnetic ballast was the standard and they actually have magnetic T8 ballasts, but they're rare.

Refer to ANSI C78.81 

F32T8 7881-ANSI-1005-2 60Hz 265mA 

F54T5/HO 60081-IEC-6840-2 / 7881-ANSI-6840-2 25,000Hz 460mA 

1005-2 shows that F32T8 provides approximately the same performance as reference condition at 25KHz on 217mA with 29W lamp power. 

If you divide the lumen output of a F32T8 by 29W, you'll get approximately the same lm/W as 48" 28W T5. 

F54T5/HO has a lower efficacy simply because of higher watts/inch power density, just like any other HO lamps.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

I like T8 over T12, because they seem to die faster. T12 ballasts last way too long. :thumbup:


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## Lighting Retro (Aug 1, 2009)

TOOL_5150 said:


> I like T8 over T12, because they seem to die faster. T12 ballasts last way too long. :thumbup:


Some of the old T12's do seem to kick for a LONG time. However, the performance on T8 is soooo much better as far as looks, it's really a no brainer. I've also had great experiences with T8 electronic ballasts. Very rare to see a product failure.


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

Lighting Retro said:


> Some of the old T12's do seem to kick for a LONG time.


There's not much to go wrong in magnetic ballast. Capacitor or winding insulation break-down. The capacitor used in commercial grade magnetic ballasts are usually oil filled type, which does not suffer from "dry outs" that electrolytic caps used in electronic ballasts do. All electronic ballasts (T5, T8, T12 or whatever) have electrolytic capacitors and semiconductor switches, so they're more sensitive to temperature and surge. It takes less surge to blow out solid start parts than to arc over and pierce the winding insulation on a magnetic ballast, however the 10% boost in lamp discharge efficacy offered by electronic is worthwhile in energy savings in most parts.

Electronic ballasts have traditionally been more expensive over magnetic, but right now, I'm not sure what would cost more to make as oil, copper and iron are all going up. (magnetic ballast uses more of those materials and more weight translates to higher transportation cost)




> However, the *performance on T8 *is soooo much better as far as looks, it's really a no brainer. I've also had great experiences with T8 electronic ballasts. Very rare to see a product failure.


When you compare F34T12/CW mag to F32T8/8xx electr. HF, the outcome tends to be that way, but T5, T8 or T12 only refers to tube size and there's no significant performance difference between the three types.

The use of phrasing like "Txx technology" apparently make it seem like there's a correlation between T size vs efficacy and color quality but there isn't. 

It's the use of rare-earth phosphor blend and electronic ballasting. T12 is available in classic CW & rare-earth. T8s and T5s were never put on the market with classic CW in North America. 

F34T12 with CW phosphor will be phased out in July 2012, along with all T8 through T12 4' lamps not meeting 89 lumens per watt(88 for >4500K) in July 2012. F40T12 was phased out in 1995. 

3100lm/34W and 3600lm/40W rare-earth T12s 48" lamps will continue to be made until manufacturers stop making them voluntarily due to market demand. 

T12 electronic ballasts will be available until manufacturers voluntarily discontinue them. 


Philips Advantage T12. 34W & 40W, passes EISA. Available until Philips discontinues product line. 

Example system: 
F34T12/ADV841, rated at 3100 lumens. Lumen maintenance 
Universal Lighting B234RS120M-A electronic T12 ballast

input power: 59W
system efficacy: 90.4 lumens-per-watt 95% lumen maintenance. 

F32T8/841, 2950 lumens 
Typical T8 instant start ballast with 0.87 BF and 56W input
91.6 lumens-per-watt, ~95% lumen maintenance

91.6lm/W is approximately the same as 90.4lm/W
You get 4100K, CRI 85 whichever way.


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## Lighting Retro (Aug 1, 2009)

> When you compare F34T12/CW mag to F32T8/8xx electr. HF, the outcome tends to be that way, but T5, T8 or T12 only refers to tube size and there's no significant performance difference between the three types.
> 
> The use of phrasing like "Txx technology" apparently make it seem like there's a correlation between T size vs efficacy and color quality but there isn't.


I should have clarified. When going from magnetic T12 to electronic T8, you will usually see a very noticeable difference. On the other, you are quite correct.


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## MarkyMark (Jan 31, 2009)

It is pretty cool to come across the occasional T12 ballast that is older than I am, but other than that I say good riddance.


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

Looking at fixture catalogs, its surprising how poor the transmission rate is on some covers. 

If it's a lay-in fixtures, I'm not sure if lamp-ballast retrofit is such a great idea. If the current system is providing adequate foot candle and the fixture efficiency is 50% and you upgrade with an 80% efficiency fixture, you could actually cut the lamp lumens by 38% and still have the same output.


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

MarkyMark said:


> It is pretty cool to come across the occasional T12 ballast that is older than I am, but other than that I say good riddance.


I'm not sure how old you are, so I'm not sure how old they're, but if they're PCB ballasts, the sooner you take them out of service the better. 

They'll still cost money to dispose, but it is much cheaper to dispose of them now than cleaning up after they leak PCB oil inside fixtures. 

Cleaning up PCB spill in compliance with OSHA and environmental regulations get costly fast.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

I can't think of any good reasons to keep servicing T12 fixtures, and haven't really done so in a year or two. The phaseout won't really affect me.


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

MDShunk said:


> I can't think of any good reasons to keep servicing T12 fixtures, and haven't really done so in a year or two. The phaseout won't really affect me.


I expect T12 lamps to become really cheap over the next year. Nobody wants to be stuck with stagnant inventory or even worse, disposal cost for lamps that do not sell.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

There's still going to be production of the oddball length stuff, for display cases and the like, correct?


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

MDShunk said:


> There's still going to be production of the oddball length stuff, for display cases and the like, correct?


Yep. The restrictions only affect general service fluorescent lamps.
110W T12 CW intended for outdoor/cold use will still be made for signs and such.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Electric_Light said:


> Yep. The restrictions only affect general service fluorescent lamps.
> 110W T12 CW intended for outdoor/cold use will still be made for signs and such.


Groovy. That's about all I need to know about the phaseout. Now, off to shop for some powergroove lamps.... :jester:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

MDShunk said:


> Groovy. That's about all I need to know about the phaseout. Now, off to shop for some powergroove lamps.... :jester:



You can get them here...:laughing::laughing:

http://www.bulbamerica.com/ge-8pcs-f96pg17-daylight-power-groove-pg17-bulb.html


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

HARRY304E said:


> You can get them here...:laughing::laughing:
> 
> http://www.bulbamerica.com/ge-8pcs-f96pg17-daylight-power-groove-pg17-bulb.html


No, I was actually kidding. I still have about a case and a half of them. I have one customer left who uses them, and he uses me to replace them. When mine are depleted, he's going to be put in a position to (finally) upgrade or do without light in his used car lot.

edit... I see from that link that they're about 50 bucks a piece. Time for me to up the price. I think I was selling them at 22-ish. I might actually call him Monday to see if he just wants to outright buy the rest of mine for 25 bucks each so I don't have to have them around anymore.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

MDShunk said:


> No, I was actually kidding. I still have about a case and a half of them. I have one customer left who uses them, and he uses me to replace them. When mine are depleted, he's going to be put in a position to (finally) upgrade or do without light in his used car lot.
> 
> edit... I see from that link that they're about 50 bucks a piece. Time for me to up the price. I think I was selling them at 22-ish. I might actually call him Monday to see if he just wants to outright buy the rest of mine for 25 bucks each so I don't have to have them around anymore.


Get the most you can for them...:thumbup:


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

HARRY304E said:


> Get the most you can for them...:thumbup:


I got them essentially for free with an auction lot. Anything I get for them will by fine. If I can unload them all in one shot for any price, that will be okay with me. It's not like I actively seek out people who need PowerGroove lamps. I have one customer who uses them, and can only think of two places off the top of my head where I've seen them still in use.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

MDShunk said:


> I got them essentially for free with an auction lot. Anything I get for them will by fine. If I can unload them all in one shot for any price, that will be okay with me. It's not like I actively seek out people who need PowerGroove lamps. I have one customer who uses them, and can only think of two places off the top of my head where I've seen them still in use.


Yeah the last i seen them is at fenway park under the stands back in the early 2,000's 

They were replaced with T5 HO's..


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

MDShunk said:


> No, I was actually kidding. I still have about a case and a half of them. I have one customer left who uses them, and he uses me to replace them. When mine are depleted, he's going to be put in a position to (finally) upgrade or do without light in his used car lot.


Power Groove lamps are still made. It is still in current GE catalog. Only GE makes them. They look interesting, but they're length/socket and electrically compatible with VHO lamps, which will continue to be produced for cold temp/outdoor use. 

I compared the specs between PG and regular VHO and I don't really know what the benefit of PG is.

You may not be able to use PG in fixtures meant for T12 VHO since PG is fatter, but I don't see why you can't use T12/VHO in PG fixtures.


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