# Afci breakers



## trentonmakes (Mar 21, 2017)

Can someone explain why the AFCI breaker trips when I cut the wires with the power off?

Ex;
Installing pendants on a finish, the switch is off but yet when i cut the wires the breaker trips.

Is there residual voltage on the neutral?

Texting and Driving


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Your brand is using gfi circuitry inside the breaker device in order to pretend it is an arcing fault device . That is why .


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

I almost agree with mac. Most afci's have some form of gfp, not gfi, so when the neutral and ground touch the afci will trip just as a gfi or gfp would trip


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

The other day I changed out a light, I only shut the light switch off. Two times while playing with the wires getting them in the new box the breaker tripped. The homeowner went down to reset it. I had no idea what the problem was, I though maybe the switch was leaking current thru and tripped the breaker when thehot touched the ground. But that seemed odd. 

Now it makes sense that it was probably an AFCI breaker And the neutral wire touched the ground.. But why wouldn the OP’s breaker trip when it’s off?


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Homeline and QO both have a 30 mA trip setting, so cutting the wire or any N-G contact will trip it.


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## trentonmakes (Mar 21, 2017)

Is 30ma less than a regular GFI?
I've done the same thing with the switch off on GFI breakers and receptacles and they never trip.


Texting and Driving


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

trentonmakes said:


> Is 30ma less than a regular GFI?
> I've done the same thing with the switch off on GFI breakers and receptacles and they never trip.
> 
> 
> Texting and Driving


Class A GFCI Devices trip between 4-6 Milliamps.

GFPE (Ground Fault Protection of Equipment) has a trip threshold of 30 Milliamps.

GFCI is designed for personnel protection against electric shock.
GFPE is designed to protect equipment from ground faults that could start a fire.

Chris


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I almost agree with mac. Most afci's have some form of gfp, not gfi, so when the neutral and ground touch the afci will trip just as a gfi or gfp would trip


Ok, I knew the difference but it is picking fly poop out of pepper. The fact still remains that they have yet to make their afci's work properly to interrupt on arcing faults without relying on some sort of ground fault protective circuitry added in. It's like tying a pillow to the front of an automobile to protect it from collisions in leu of installing good working brakes.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

macmikeman said:


> Ok, I knew the difference but it is picking fly poop out of pepper. The fact still remains that they have yet to make their afci's work properly to interrupt on arcing faults without relying on some sort of ground fault protective circuitry added in. It's like tying a pillow to the front of an automobile to protect it from collisions in leu of installing good working brakes.


I printed out and kept the paper written by Joe Engel who worked for Eaton/Cutler Hammer or whatever it was called at the time. His premise was that the AFCI was fundamentally worthless without GFPE/ current differential and that the UL standard should include the requirement for GFPE in all AFCI's, which of course they did not do.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

trentonmakes said:


> Can someone explain why the AFCI breaker trips when I cut the wires *with the power off*?
> 
> Ex;
> Installing pendants on a finish, the switch is off but yet when i cut the wires the breaker trips.
> ...


Are you saying that you had the breaker off or just the switch?

If it was just the switch, then it would be the same thing as my situation.


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## trentonmakes (Mar 21, 2017)

HackWork said:


> Are you saying that you had the breaker off or just the switch?
> 
> If it was just the switch, then it would be the same thing as my situation.


Same thing!

Switch was off, so confused me why the breaker would trip.

Texting and Driving


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

trentonmakes said:


> Same thing!
> 
> Switch was off, so confused me why the breaker would trip.
> 
> Texting and Driving


By your original post I thought you meant the breaker was off. Damn you.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

trentonmakes said:


> Same thing!
> 
> Switch was off, so confused me why the breaker would trip.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MTW said:


>


As I explained earlier, I was confused too. 

But if I wasn't so lazy I would have gone into the basement and saw that it was an AFCI and then realized it had to be the cause, and replaced it with a normal breaker.


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## B-Nabs (Jun 4, 2014)

HackWork said:


> Are you saying that you had the breaker off or just the switch?
> 
> If it was just the switch, then it would be the same thing as my situation.


If a breaker is off, then how could it trip? 

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

B-Nabs said:


> If a breaker is off, then how could it trip?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


Exactly my question.



trentonmakes said:


> Can someone explain why the AFCI breaker trips when I cut the wires with the power off?


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## trentonmakes (Mar 21, 2017)

trentonmakes said:


> Can someone explain why the AFCI breaker trips when I cut the wires with the power off?
> 
> Ex;
> Installing pendants on a finish, the switch is off but yet when i cut the wires the breaker trips.
> ...


You both need to read....
I said the switch was off

Why would i turn the breaker off to install a light, when i can just flick the switch??? Lol

Texting and Driving


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

trentonmakes said:


> You both need to read....
> I said the switch was off
> 
> Why would i turn the breaker off to install a light, when i can just flick the switch??? Lol
> ...


You said the power was off in the first sentence in which you were talking about the breaker, that makes it seem like the breaker was off. You later said that the switch was also off. 

I just didn't understand because it wasn't clear.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

I don't understand why the Ramen in my Won ton is always all globes together whenever I order one from Zippy's. They were better when I was younger.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

The op said the switch was OFF in his first post


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## trentonmakes (Mar 21, 2017)

Dennis Alwon said:


> The op said the switch was OFF in his first post


I did! Lol

I can see where the confusion was though.
Anyways, I think I understand now but seemed strange at the time.

Texting and Driving


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> The op said the switch was OFF in his first post


Yes, we established that.

We also spoke about how he said the power was off when talking about the breaker.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

trentonmakes said:


> I did! Lol
> 
> I can see where the confusion was though.
> Anyways, I think I understand now but seemed strange at the time.
> ...


I'm glad you made this thread. Not only do I now know why that breaker was tripping the other day, but I learned something new for future troubleshooting.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

trentonmakes said:


> You both need to read....
> I said the switch was off
> 
> Why would i turn the breaker off to install a light, when i can just flick the switch??? Lol
> ...


because it was a 3 way switch and you forgot to set
the 3 way toggles in the middle position?:jester:


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## Warner0032 (Oct 26, 2017)

It takes a while for the remaining juice in the neutral to come out. Shaking the wire helps...


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## 746 Watts (Nov 13, 2016)

I just received an email last week from Eaton saying that they have redesigned the circuitry in their AFCI / GFCI combo breakers. They are supposed to fit in a panel better without taking up as much room as before. Wonder if they have also improved the functions as well.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

Warner0032 said:


> It takes a while for the remaining juice in the neutral to come out. Shaking the wire helps...


I know what you'e describing ..but..I..just..can't..quite...place it
hmmm


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

this is so puzzling to me. How does the AFCI know what the bond wire is and how does it know if the neutral is in contact with the bond? 

The neutral and bond are connected in the panel, and the AFCI only has the hot and neutral connected to it, yet the AFCI knows the difference between the neutral and bond?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

eddy current said:


> this is so puzzling to me. How does the AFCI know what the bond wire is and how does it know if the neutral is in contact with the bond?
> 
> The neutral and bond are connected in the panel, and the AFCI only has the hot and neutral connected to it, yet the AFCI knows the difference between the neutral and bond?


It's not the AFCI function that is tripping, it's the GFCI function that an AFCI breaker contains. 

If you touch the neutral and ground together while there is a load on the circuit, some of that current will flow thru the ground. If the amount of current is over the GFCI functions threshold, it will trip.

Since I made the first post in this thread, I have tripped 2 more AFCI breakers in 2 different houses by replacing lights on AFCI protected circuits and touching the neutral to ground while the light switch was off. Great timing for the thread.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

HackWork said:


> It's not the AFCI function that is tripping, it's the GFCI function that an AFCI breaker contains.
> 
> If you touch the neutral and ground together while there is a load on the circuit, some of that current will flow thru the ground. If the amount of current is over the GFCI functions threshold, it will trip.
> 
> Since I made the first post in this thread, I have tripped 2 more AFCI breakers in 2 different houses by replacing lights on AFCI protected circuits and touching the neutral to ground while the light switch was off. Great timing for the thread.


I understand when there is some load. Power leaves through the hot, and not all of it comes back through the neutral. Device sees the difference.

What about when there is no load? Like the OP having the switch off? How does the breaker know that the neutral touched the bond? The breaker must be adding something (voltage?) on the wires. I would like to bench test these and see what happens


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

^^^ I meant adding current on the wires, not voltage.

Like a small amount on the neutral that is attached to the breaker


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

eddy current said:


> I understand when there is some load. Power leaves through the hot, and not all of it comes back through the neutral. Device sees the difference.
> 
> What about when there is no load? Like the OP having the switch off? How does the breaker know that the neutral touched the bond? The breaker must be adding something (voltage?) on the wires. I would like to bench test these and see what happens


There is a load from something else on the circuit.

I bet if you turned everything completely off it would not trip. 

In the 3 situations that it happened to me, I knew I tripped the breaker because some other light in the area shut off, or in one case the customer's TV. 

Even though the neutral that I was touching was a "dead end" so to speak and the current wasn't running directly thru it, electricity takes all paths and enough flowed from that neutral to the ground to trip the breaker.

At least that's the way I believe it happened.


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## Arrow3030 (Mar 12, 2014)

Dang. Now I'm going to have to think about sending current on everyrhing connected to the EGC anytime I cut the neutral, EGC and open switch leg at the same time on any circuit, whether AFCI/GFCI or not. 

If there's a load on that circuit I'm sending current thru everything bonded while cutting.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

An afci's _chief_ component is a toroidal coil 




























Just like a GFCI, except the R factor is 30ma instead of 5

Except for GE, which excluded the GF protection. _(they never trip, which is why i use them)_

My point here is, no matter how much '_electronica_' one lumps on top of a toroidal, it will only sense and act on what a toroidal can sense.

Understanding this ONE fundamental will make your diagnostics easier

:vs_cool:
~CS~


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

chicken steve said:


> An afci's _chief_ component is a toroidal coil
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Did you just say you like GE best cause they don't trip under the
circumstances of the OP's and others in the thread or they
don't have "nuisance tripping "issues cause they lack
this extra feature?


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Yes, that's been my experience Lighter
:vs_cool:
~CS~


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

chicken steve said:


> Yes, that's been my experience Lighter
> :vs_cool:
> ~CS~


Did you contact 12 manufacturers to learn this?


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Square D


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