# some unprofessional work



## rockerknight

some stuff i sent my guys to do and i came back the next day to finish the work... wall plates covered it but still disappointed (worst thing is they couldn't cut the holes straight . and another job with no straps on the mc for at least 4 feet of the box and i think i saw 5 wires under one red wire nut kinda tight


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## BBQ

Those look like Idea 452 wirenuts, they are listed for five 12 AWGs.

Other than the lack of support on the MCs I don't see anything that bad.


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## B4T

The holes that were cut for the boxes are a tad over sized and a lousy job of installing the madison straps..

Just a matter of time before those boxes become loose in the wall and fall out..

What are the chances the guy even installed the madison straps in the right direction.. :no:

It also looks like he has more than (9) conductors in a 1.5" deep box..


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## BBQ

B4T said:


> The holes that were cut for the boxes are a tad over sized and a lousy job of installing the madison straps..


I agree, but nothing really shockingly bad.



> Just a matter of time before those boxes become loose in the wall and fall out..


It depends on what go in the boxes. 



> What are the chances the guy even installed the madison straps in the right direction.. :no:


Now that is some funny stuff, there is no 'right' direction only personal preference. 

I challenge you to find any manufacturers directions that say which way to use them.


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## B4T

BBQ said:


> I challenge you to find any manufacturers directions that say which way to use them.


I also added box fill to my post..

That is correct.. I have never seen an "installation guide" for those straps..

But there is a short side and a long side.. using the short side facing down keeps the clip from falling out of the box if it is installed too loose..

A good mechanic would figure that out before installing them backward..


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## chicken steve

a _good _mechanic might consider old work products of _this _millenium.....~CS~


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## B4T

chicken steve said:


> a _good _mechanic might consider old work products of _this _millenium.....~CS~


There is nothing wrong with using that method for old work if installed correctly..

It is either use those or boxes with a back bracket.. the straps have more surface area in contact with the drywall.. so they are stronger..


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## HARRY304E

rockerknight said:


> some stuff i sent my guys to do and i came back the next day to finish the work... wall plates covered it but still disappointed (worst thing is they couldn't cut the holes straight . and another job with no straps on the mc for at least 4 feet of the box and i think i saw 5 wires under one red wire nut kinda tight






Looks like they don't care about what their doing and the 2 gang box is way off.

Looks like you will need to train them and get the right keyhole saw to do the work and take the time to make the mad bars tight.

Does not look like any effort was put into making the MC cable look professional.:no:


Welcome to the forum........:thumbup:


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## BurtiElectric

I would be pi$$ed if one of our guys did work like that, its a bad reflection on your company. No craftmanship


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## running dummy

How is a Madison strap going to "fall out"? The strap is bent over inside the box. 

I agree with bob, I wouldn't even bring anything besides the mc up.


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## Going_Commando

I install madison straps with the long side pointing up on one side of the box, and down on the other. Don't ask me why, but that's how I do it. The MC is a bit messy, but nothing that can't be cleaned up with some BX-50s.


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## B4T

running dummy said:


> How is a Madison strap going to "fall out"? The strap is bent over inside the box.
> 
> I agree with bob, I wouldn't even bring anything besides the mc up.


Very easily.. I have seen it happen many times..

It really depends how many times the receptacle gets used.. some people pull on the cord and don't hold the box..

Once the box has "movement" inside the drywall it will fail if the strap is upside down.. 

Only way the strap can fall out if the long side it pointing down instead of up..


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## erics37

Did the job come in under budget?


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## niteshift

Did you let your green helper do this?:whistling2:


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## wornknobby3

niteshift said:


> Did you let your green helper do this?:whistling2:



greener than the grass grows on a sunny summer day:whistling2:


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## niteshift

wornknobby3 said:


> greener than the grass grows on a sunny summer day:whistling2:


:laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## niteshift

Name game. word is _madison strap_

_Also known as..._
F-strap......
A battleship...hold it sideways...geesh

what else ya got?


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## rockerknight

the sad thing is they have been in the trade for 10 years. the mc part was easy to fix but i shouldn't have to go back and fix it.


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## Pete m.

It's kinda hard to tell, but is there a bonding jumper attached to the EGC's and the j-boxes?

Pete


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## Shazbo inc.

Im guessin those guys make a great hourly rate.


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## McClary’s Electrical

BBQ said:


> I agree, but nothing really shockingly bad.
> 
> It depends on what go in the boxes.
> 
> Now that is some funny stuff, there is no 'right' direction only personal preference.
> 
> I challenge you to find any manufacturers directions that say which way to use them.


Haha I get to throw that 110.3 (b) right back later at you


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## davis9

B4T said:


> The holes that were cut for the boxes are a tad over sized and a lousy job of installing the madison straps..
> 
> Just a matter of time before those boxes become loose in the wall and fall out..
> 
> What are the chances the guy even installed the madison straps in the right direction.. :no:
> 
> It also looks like he has more than (9) conductors in a 1.5" deep box..


There are 4" sq box extensions there fwiw.

Tom:thumbsup:


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## BBQ

mcclary's electrical said:


> Haha I get to throw that 110.3 (b) right back later at you
> 
> View attachment 11745


Yeah you do with that brand.

Mine have no such markings and are not UL listed (They don't have to be)


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## B4T

Jerry.. you need to wear gloves when you work or be more careful.. :no:


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## BBQ

B4T said:


> Jerry.. you need to wear gloves when you work or be more careful.. :no:


To much whacking off no doubt.:jester:


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## Briancraig81

Here's a tip for your guys when installing the Jiffy clips (Madison bars). Pull them in tight towards you and start to bend the in-towards the box and squeeze them closed with your strippers. Makes em' good and tight:thumbsup:. I wouldn't be caught dead installing them loose as those guys did.


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## McClary’s Electrical

B4T said:


> Jerry.. you need to wear gloves when you work or be more careful.. :no:


Yes, that was a 7/8" paddle bit being driven with an m18 drill. It hurt like hell


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## thegoldenboy

Jerry beat me to it, I was going to say that I also have seen E-straps with the word "UP" and the arrow.


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## thegoldenboy

mcclary's electrical said:


> Yes, that was a 7/8" paddle bit being driven with an m18 drill. It hurt like hell


Were you holding the other side of the stud and forgot what you were doing? :laughing:

Looks like it's healing nicely. I once put my phillips bit holder through my nail. It was a fountain of blood.


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## McClary’s Electrical

thegoldenboy said:


> Were you holding the other side of the stud and forgot what you were doing? :laughing:
> 
> Looks like it's healing nicely. I once put my phillips bit holder through my nail. It was a fountain of blood.


 

I had made an opening to install a cutin box. I drilled all four corners and used my sawzall to finish the four cuts. First one was perfect. I had to make another one right beside it for the HDMI cable. Working off a ladder so I was holding on by the first hole and my drill broke out the side of the hole and jammed right into my finger. I was only doing it because I was 12' off the floor and I wanted to hold on


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## sparky711

I've only been an apprentice for 7 months so I have no platform to judge from but the guys I work under would be all over me if I did work like that. Plus its a pride thing, obviously they don't care what their work looks like.


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## Ontariojer

niteshift said:


> Name game. word is _madison strap_
> 
> _Also known as..._
> F-strap......
> A battleship...hold it sideways...geesh
> 
> what else ya got?


We call them F brackets, F clips, or 820Ds


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## erics37

BBQ said:


> To much whacking off no doubt.:jester:


I partake in that particular venture more often than anyone on this website and my hands are in way better shape than that.


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## BurtiElectric

Ontariojer said:


> We call them F brackets, F clips, or 820Ds


Steamships


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## McClary’s Electrical

BBQ said:


> To much whacking off no doubt.:jester:





erics37 said:


> I partake in that particular venture more often than anyone on this website and my hands are in way better shape than that.


 
I'm right handed.


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## MarkyMark

chicken steve said:


> a _good _mechanic might consider old work products of _this _millenium.....~CS~


Which product in particular from this millennium are you referring too? As crappy as old work metal boxes with F=clips are, I have yet to find an alternative that is not equally crappy.


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## running dummy

MarkyMark said:


> Which product in particular from this millennium are you referring too? As crappy as old work metal boxes with F=clips are, I have yet to find an alternative that is not equally crappy.


I've seen metal boxes that have extensions on the sides of the box so that when you tighten each screw it sucks it up tight to the drywall. Pretty nice, snug fit.


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## erics37

mcclary's electrical said:


> I'm right handed.


I am too but I have adapted to make it easier to operate the computer mouse.


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## oldtimer

running dummy said:


> I've seen metal boxes that have extensions on the sides of the box so that when you tighten each screw it sucks it up tight to the drywall. Pretty nice, snug fit.



T and B BC1104LRW.

That is the box, I think you are looking for.

Sorry, I still haven't figured how to post a picture.


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## McClary’s Electrical

markymark said:


> which product in particular from this millennium are you referring too? As crappy as old work metal boxes with f=clips are, i have yet to find an alternative that is not equally crappy.


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## JSpark

https://midwest.westburne.ca//produ...IBVBC777LRB&token=%2814072+4294967157+6387%29


I like those for single gang applications


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## ptcrtn

This is an old post I found. I have tried these and like them. They are gang able.







06-21-2011, 04:23 PM
220/221 
Senior Member

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 3,658 










The best thing I've found is the Bowers 53 owe. It has MC clamps in back and drywall clamps on opposite corners.


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## Dunwrights

pretty depressing when that kinda stuff goes on. i do some subbie work for a large company here and i'm running one of their jobs, with their staff. unfortunately, their staff aren't particularly interested in doing a good job at times, which isn't acceptable. Though it's hard to push people that don't want to do the right thing.

We install our wall boxes a little differently here, but the principle is always the same. measure twice cut once, etc.....

Cheers, Jc


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## farlsincharge

Here in the great white north there are these things inside the wall that we call studs. Call me crazy, but I usually cut my holes next to one and then fasten to it.


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## Nuzzie

that's preposterous farlsincharge


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## B4T

farlsincharge said:


> Here in the great white north there are these things inside the wall that we call studs. Call me crazy, but I usually cut my holes next to one and then fasten to it.


Those metal boxes are mainly used for BX and MC cable and the "stud" you speak of is most likely steel..


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## farlsincharge

B4T said:


> Those metal boxes are mainly used for BX and MC cable and the "stud" you speak of is most likely steel..


and......


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## B4T

farlsincharge said:


> and......


By the time you are trying to screw the box to the steel stud I will have the straps in place and working on the receptacle.. 

Sometimes you are not able to get a box next to a beam.. it is not a perfect world..


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## farlsincharge

It doesn't take long to run two sheet metal screws in with an impact. Studs are typically 16" apart so 9 times out of 10 it is possible to fasten to one and still be in the right location. 

If speed is all we are going for I can run an extension cord to the location from another outlet and be drinking coffee before you are done cutting the hole. I would consider that less hack than supporting a box with drywall.


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## JSpark

I try to go for stud mounting when I do Reno work but for the times when it doesn't work out for whatever reason I bust out the 777 box

And for the times it really doesn't work out hello low voltage cut in and blank plate


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## Magnettica

The best way to go is with the Smart Box by Arlington. The OP needs to teach his guys how to cutout of sheetrock better.


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## JSpark

Those look really user friendly and easy to get a nice flush sitting box

http://www.smarthomeusa.com/ShopByManufacturer/Smart-Box/Item/SB22/


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## BBQ

erics37 said:


> I partake in that particular venture more often than anyone on this website and my hands are in way better shape than that.


Was there a poll (not pole) I missed?


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## B4T

BBQ said:


> Was there a poll (not pole) I missed?


No.. but I think him and Jerry had a contest.. :laughing:


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## Podagrower

With one of these, you will get the right size hole every time, and it will be level.


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## Hippie

Podagrower said:


> With one of these, you will get the right size hole every time, and it will be level.


Junk. That things not going to fit every style of box and would probably end up broken after a week in my bag...


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## local134gt

Podagrower said:


> With one of these, you will get the right size hole every time, and it will be level.


Fixt it for you :thumbsup:


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## thegoldenboy

local134gt said:


> Fixt it for you :thumbsup:


Fixed it for you. :thumbsup:


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## Pompadour

did regular plates cover those?


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## Frasbee

niteshift said:


> Name game. word is _madison strap_
> 
> _Also known as..._
> F-strap......
> A battleship...hold it sideways...geesh
> 
> what else ya got?


F-*clip. :whistling2:*


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## local134gt

thegoldenboy said:


> Fixed it for you. :thumbsup:


Was actually intentional, why? Because I can, but thanks anyways :thumbsup:


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## di11igaf

B4T said:


> Very easily.. I have seen it happen many times..
> 
> It really depends how many times the receptacle gets used.. some people pull on the cord and don't hold the box..
> 
> Once the box has "movement" inside the drywall it will fail if the strap is upside down..
> 
> Only way the strap can fall out if the long side it pointing down instead of up..


I agree. Even with a tight cut hole, it just seems like common sense to put short side down. With the long side down, if the arm is down to the bottom of the box, the short side up top will barely have any drywall in front of it.


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## tbcorreo

*Spain is different.*

Not unprofessional..... *genius at work!!!!! :bangin:*


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## Barjack

niteshift said:


> Name game. word is _madison strap_
> 
> _Also known as..._
> F-strap......
> A battleship...hold it sideways...geesh
> 
> what else ya got?


Ice skates

Box cleats/supports

Two men in a boat/canoe


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## John25

Barjack said:


> Ice skates
> 
> Box cleats/supports
> 
> Two men in a boat/canoe


Box supports.


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## tbcorreo

*Deadliest stupidity*

I´m not sure in USA, but here this is not code.
And the owner have 3 kids all under 10 years, simply incredible !!!!! :wallbash:


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## dusty magusty

It's all about making it work, going home, and cracking a beer. Nothing more, nothing less.


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## NoSparkSparky

oh yeah, you like screwing to the stud... try that here...
only approved boxes called "slider boxes" where the screw head recessed is allowed to do that.. oh yeah they are plastic, so forget about using them in commercial..

if you want to screw through th ebox around here, it has to be only through the back, OR the side BUT within a 1/4inch of the back of the.. you try that and let me know how it goes...

yeah I use Fstraps all the time around here, although Ill have to see if my supplier can get those gangable boxes with the wings someone posted a pic of.. NICE! Ive been bitching about fstraps since I started... If fiber/plastic cutin boxes can have wings.. why cant metal ones!


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## bgleason

Those guys still working for you? I would have given them the boot. I sure as hell wouldn't want my name all over that job. Were these guys young kids or old enough to know better. My experience with younger employees was that they showed no pride in their work. I told a few that if they were just there for a check to go to McDonalds and work. They either get with the game, learn and at least put out an effort to do quality work or they were gone.


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## MaxFuse

bgleason said:


> Those guys still working for you? I would have given them the boot. I sure as hell wouldn't want my name all over that job. Were these guys young kids or old enough to know better. My experience with younger employees was that they showed no pride in their work. I told a few that if they were just there for a check to go to McDonalds and work. They either get with the game, learn and at least put out an effort to do quality work or they were gone.


Heh, beat me to it.:thumbsup:


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## leland

bgleason said:


> Those guys still working for you? I would have given them the boot. I sure as hell wouldn't want my name all over that job. Were these guys young kids or old enough to know better. My experience with younger employees was that they showed no pride in their work. I told a few that if they were just there for a check to go to McDonalds and work. They either get with the game, learn and at least put out an effort to do quality work or they were gone.



Goes back to apprenticeship.

If they are not properly taught how - they will not know how.
Unfortunately, in this age of now-now - now- These young kids are not learning about quality and craftsmanship.

Yes, you can have all three - Production- Quality and craftsmanship.

But. Someone must be willing to bite the bullet and take the time to teach them the craft.

That is what is missing. 
Production at all cost, is the order of the day. I see it here with some of the same folks calling this example 'Hack'.
They complain of their slow help, then complain of the hack work, after rushing the dude. Yet have done nothing more than guide him/her with basic skills for production.

Hell, half the newbies can't even read prints, Coz NO ONE has taken the time to teach them!

it is called an 'apprenticeship' for a reason.


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## HARRY304E

tbcorreo said:


> Not unprofessional..... *genius at work!!!!! :bangin:*


:laughing:

Those would look better in the panel...:whistling2:


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## B W E

These are the best, IMO. Wouldn't use anything else, 'crept theyre pricy.


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## tbcorreo

Was onley a temporary panel. It work´s over 15 years !!!!!!


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## mrmike

I would NOT use those Madison straps..... Period...... There are many good "old work" boxes out there that are IMO better & safer. 

The straps to me are a thing of the past. I have seen too many times where the Receptacle had moved thru use & the "hot" screw on it shorted to the madison strap that didn't fit tight to the box. 

Back in the 70's when we had nothing else you had to use them, but alot of electricians including myself would run tape around the receptacle covering the connection screws to prevent it from the screw coming in contact with the strap............


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## 347sparky

farlsincharge said:


> It doesn't take long to run two sheet metal screws in with an impact. Studs are typically 16" apart so 9 times out of 10 it is possible to fasten to one and still be in the right location.
> 
> If speed is all we are going for I can run an extension cord to the location from another outlet and be drinking coffee before you are done cutting the hole. I would consider that less hack than supporting a box with drywall.


So in a steel stud wall how do you make sure that you are cutting on the flat side of the stud or the open side when the wall is sheet rocked to the ceiling on both sides? You could check another outlet box but carpenters don't always install those in the same orientation.


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## nrp3

Pulling the ship clips tight, bending them over and crimping them tight with needlenose pliers works fine. I like those Bowers boxes though. If the hole is a little large, stick some of those caterpillars from ideal in there to keep the box from moving. Use some low voltage rings instead of boxes for the telco and network. Easier.


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