# Gfci's in garages.



## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

Pretty simple really, just want to know what you do in general.

Line/load one gfi and put regular receptacles in all the other openings or...
Pigtail the home run ckt and put gfi's in every opening?

The same thing happens in kitchens as well but there might be variables with that.

Generally, I line/load them and save the company money in devices but my boss is big on putting gfi's in every spot. Dunno why really. He's the boss so I do what he wants for the most part but this one is odd.

So what do you do and why?


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

I line and load them. Sure its nice to have everyone on its own but a little overkill for my taste.


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

Rudeboy said:


> Pretty simple really, just want to know what you do in general.
> 
> Line/load one gfi and put regular receptacles in all the other openings or...
> Pigtail the home run ckt and put gfi's in every opening?
> ...


You boss is crazy. For a garage? For anywhere, for that matter, your boss is nuts. What's the use of having multiple gfi's on a single circuit?


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## DipsyDoodleDandy (Dec 21, 2009)

*....*

just more things to go bad


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Line-load to regular receps downstream.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

I guess convenience. If gfi trips all the other outlets still work. In a small kitchen I can see it, then all the outlets look the same but not in a big one. People don't like the look of a gfi in the first place. 
It's not worth the effort to try and change my bosses mind most of the time on stuff like this.


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

Rudeboy said:


> I guess convenience. If gfi trips all the other outlets still work. In a small kitchen I can see it, then all the outlets look the same but not in a big one. People don't like the look of a gfi in the first place.
> It's not worth the effort to try and change my bosses mind most of the time on stuff like this.


 I know a few ECs that do this but they buy the cheap charlie gfci. I persoanlly have become a big fan of the lighted ones by P&S. I get a lot of positive feed back from my customers with these.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

We use the lighted ones from Leviton. Customers complain about lighted gfi's quite a bit, main complaint, they don't like the lights. Another guy from my co wired a kitchen on a job we were doing and just pigtailed the circuits (he then got fired for another reason). It was a big counter, maybe 12 outlets, and I mentioned it to the site super. He laughed and said, now way do they want gfi's in every outlet. So I line/loaded using two gfi's and they were happy but my boss didn't like it.
"Nobody does it like that."

Really? You've been sitting behind the desk too long to know.
:laughing:


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

Rudeboy said:


> We use the lighted ones from Leviton. Customers complain about lighted gfi's quite a bit, main complaint, they don't like the lights. Another guy from my co wired a kitchen on a job we were doing and just pigtailed the circuits (he then got fired for another reason). It was a big counter, maybe 12 outlets, and I mentioned it to the site super. He laughed and said, now way do they want gfi's in every outlet. So I line/loaded using two gfi's and they were happy but my boss didn't like it.
> "Nobody does it like that."
> 
> Really? You've been sitting behind the desk too long to know.
> :laughing:


 No Im talking about the night light ones. People love them in a bath room or kitchen. Its like a little bonus for them. even one of my GC's commented on them.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Rudeboy said:


> ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Nobody does it like that.".......


Nice to find out you're a nobody! :lol:


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Nice to find out you're a nobody! :lol:


haha, it's been feeling like that lately.:thumbup:


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

Rudeboy said:


> haha, it's been feeling like that lately.:thumbup:


 yeah you must be the only one listening to the style council.:laughing:


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

BuzzKill said:


> yeah you must be the only one listening to the style council.:laughing:


:laughing: Yeah, you got me there, and I listen to it on vinyl.
... better than Paul Weller's new stuff though.


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

Rudeboy said:


> :laughing: Yeah, you got me there, and I listen to it on vinyl.
> ... better than Paul Weller's new stuff though.


 that douche bag is still around?
Should have retired after the Jam.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

I understand the logic of having a GFI in each hole, because customers are notoriously dumb when it comes to resetting one. It's bad enough they can't do it on the GFI itself, they are really puzzled when a load-side downstream duplex is off. Some architects and builders have started requiring point-of-use GFI's.

Now it's their money, so whatever. But if it is left up to me, I line/load. A single GFI protecting other outlets is perfectly sound, and works in my home.


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

Rudeboy said:


> :laughing: Yeah, you got me there, and I listen to it on vinyl.
> ... better than Paul Weller's new stuff though.


 I need a vinyl player...I haven't had one since like '95 or so! I got some rare stuff on wax.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

BuzzKill said:


> that douche bag is still around?
> Should have retired after the Jam.


You do mean, after the style council.

The Jam is awesome though.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

BuzzKill said:


> I need a vinyl player...I haven't had one since like '95 or so! I got some rare stuff on wax.


Do they have thrift shops or flea markets in GA? Or do people just throw all that crap in the landfill with everything else?


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

didn't he go solo, or was that before/after?


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

InPhase277 said:


> I understand the logic of having a GFI in each hole, because customers are notoriously dumb when it comes to resetting one. It's bad enough they can't do it on the GFI itself, they are really puzzled when a load-side downstream duplex is off. Some architects and builders have started requiring point-of-use GFI's.
> 
> Now it's their money, so whatever. But if it is left up to me, I line/load. A single GFI protecting other outlets is perfectly sound, and works in my home.


I think a lot of ec's bid jobs as if it's point of use and then save a bit because technically, it is gfi protected.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

BuzzKill said:


> didn't he go solo, or was that before/after?


He went style council and then solo, ever since he's been solo. Check youtube, he's done all kinds of collabs with members of Oasis and so on. Pretty gay really.


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## RyanM (Nov 29, 2009)

*Gfci*

Just put one line/load GFCI and have it protect regular outlets. You can also put in a GFCI Circuit Breaker to protect regular outlets. I wired my shop at home and I have one GFCI protecting my regular outlets.


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## egads (Sep 1, 2009)

I keep going into some garage to trouble shoot and find a bunch of cabinets and storage and no gfci in sight!


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

egads said:


> I keep going into some garage to trouble shoot and find a bunch of cabinets and storage and no gfci in sight!


I've thought of that, people put a lot of junk next to their walls in garages but I guess that's their problem.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Rudeboy said:


> I've thought of that, people put a lot of junk next to their walls in garages but I guess that's their problem.


 
You can always put a GFI next to the panel in the basement.










Oh, wait............



Never mind.


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## sparky105 (Sep 29, 2009)

or hide it behind the fire wood pile in the garage and pay me to re-pile the wood to reset it:thumbup:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

sparky105 said:


> or hide it behind the fire wood pile in the garage and pay me to re-pile the wood to reset it:thumbup:


I've charged service call rates to reset bathroom GFIs that are hidden behind towel bars, kitchen GFIs that end up behind coffee makers, toasters and blenders, and a GFI at the front door that line-load protected a recep on the back deck.

And installing a GFI breaker won't help, because some people just don't know how to reset a breaker.......they just blindly turn it "ON" and can't figure it out. So I charge them a service call to explain the instructions of the door and how to turn the breaker "OFF" before turning it back to "ON".


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## LAElectrician (Dec 8, 2009)

480sparky said:


> I've charged service call rates to reset bathroom GFIs that are hidden behind towel bars, kitchen GFIs that end up behind coffee makers, toasters and blenders, and a GFI at the front door that line-load protected a recep on the back deck.
> 
> This is exactly why my company policy is to always install seperate GFIs in every location. I'm really suprised that everyone seems to favor Line/load.
> 
> I once found a shut-off GFI in the garrage of a condo that was protecting a third floor bathroom. Behind a cabinet. Really, that's not the kind of electric work I'd be proud of. Is the price difference between a Decora receptacle and a GFI that big of a deal?


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

LAElectrician said:


> Is the price difference between a Decora receptacle and a GFI that big of a deal?


I provide whatever the customer is paying for. If they are not paying for GFCIs at each location they do not get GFCIs at each location.


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## Old Spark (Nov 18, 2008)

What I hate is to go to some friends home because he says his outside or garage plugs don't work anymore. After quite some testing I find the electrician loaded the outside or garage plugs off an outlet inside the house. Like the bathroom or laundry. That's really HACK work.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

David Channell said:


> ........ Like the bathroom or laundry. That's really HACK work.


Which was *legal* at one time, and therefor is not always hack work.


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## LAElectrician (Dec 8, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Which was *legal* at one time, and therefor is not always hack work.


*hack⋅work*  /ˈhækˌwɜrk/  
*–noun *
writing, painting, or any professional work done for hire and usually following a formula rather than being motivated by any creative impulse.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

LAElectrician said:


> *hack⋅work*  /ˈhækˌwɜrk/
> *–noun *
> writing, painting, or any professional work done for hire and usually following a formula rather than being motivated by any creative impulse.


 
So the work you do today that is legal according to code, when the code changes in the future, your work then becomes hack?


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## Kharnivour (Jan 18, 2010)

The way I learned it, one GFI protects the entire circuit. That is how it was designed so there is no need to put one GFI into every outlet box of the circuit.

If you do decide to put a GFI into every box, it won't hurt anything, but be sure that the wiring is parallel. If you connect all the GFI's in series, they won't work right.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Kharnivour said:


> ......... If you connect all the GFI's in series, they won't work right.


This is not true.


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## htneighbors (Jan 23, 2009)

480sparky said:


> So the work you do today that is legal according to code, when the code changes in the future, your work then becomes hack?


:no::no: Not mine! :no:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

htneighbors said:


> :no::no: Not mine! :no:


But someone else's does?


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

480sparky said:


> Which was *legal* at one time, and therefor is not always hack work.


I was wondering this the other day. What year did this become illegal, I see it alot in houses around here.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

NolaTigaBait said:


> I was wondering this the other day. What year did this become illegal, I see it alot in houses around here.


What? GFI's first required in a resi garages? 1978.


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

480sparky said:


> What? GFI's first required in a resi garages? 1978.


No, bathroom outlets being on with outside outlets. I see a gfi in the bathrooms and it protects outside outlets also.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

nolatigabait said:


> no, bathroom outlets being on with outside outlets. I see a gfi in the bathrooms and it protects outside outlets also.


1996.


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

480sparky said:


> 1996.


Ok, thanks:thumbsup:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

NolaTigaBait said:


> Ok, thanks:thumbsup:


now remember, anyone who wired houses before 1996 is now a hack. :whistling2: Except for htneighbors.


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

480sparky said:


> now remember, anyone who wired houses before 1996 is now a hack. :whistling2: Except for htneighbors.


:laughing:. Yeah, that is a little ridiculous.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

NolaTigaBait said:


> :laughing:. Yeah, that is a little ridiculous.


No. It appears his work is self-code-compliant. Whenever a new, stricter code is enacted, his wiring automatically adjusts itself to comply with the new Code.:laughing:


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## htneighbors (Jan 23, 2009)

480sparky said:


> No. It appears his work is self-code-compliant. Whenever a new, stricter code is enacted, his wiring automatically adjusts itself to comply with the new Code.:laughing:


:thumbsup:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

htneighbors said:


> :thumbsup:


 
Dude, you need to market that wiring method. You'd be rich beyond your wildest dreams! :laughing: You could buy Bill Gates 100 times over.


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## htneighbors (Jan 23, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Dude, you need to market that wiring method. You'd be rich beyond your wildest dreams! :laughing: You could buy Bill Gates 100 times over.


Proper Planning! :laughing:

Actually, in answer to your original question -

_So the work you do today that is legal according to code, when the code changes in the future, your work then becomes hack?_

- when the code changes, it doesn't change the original compliant work into HACK! That's why I said - Not mine. It may in Cali, but it doesn't change mine! :whistling2:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

htneighbors said:


> .......Actually, in answer to your original question -
> 
> _So the work you do today that is legal according to code, when the code changes in the future, your work then becomes hack?_
> 
> - when the code changes, it doesn't change the original compliant work into HACK! That's why I said - Not mine. It may in Cali, but it doesn't change mine! :whistling2:


What does California got to do with it? :001_huh: And why doesn't _your_ work become hack?


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## htneighbors (Jan 23, 2009)

Your original question in post #33 was in response to someone in LA. 

How does _ANY_ work _BECOME_ hack? If it is installed in compliance, code changes don't make it hack.


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## LAElectrician (Dec 8, 2009)

htneighbors said:


> Your original question in post #33 was in response to someone in LA.
> 
> How does _ANY_ work _BECOME_ hack? If it is installed in compliance, code changes don't make it hack.


Hack work has little to do with code, it has to do with a knowledgeable tradesman’s intention to do quality work. Knob and tube wiring was not hack work until the black pipe system came along. Using black pipe with cloth-insulated wire in the 1920s was quality work, with the best material available at the time. It could be argued that after the black pipe system was available that knob and tube became hack work even though it was still allowed by NEC.

Later, because of WW11 metal shortages, ungrounded Romex was allowed in some places, but I wouldn’t have used it. By then every electrician would have been aware of obvious grounding issues, and I would have felt too much like a hack using substandard wiring methods like that. 

There are some things prohibited by the NEC that I could care less about. There are other things allowed by the NEC that I would never do. And one of these things, getting back to the original topic of this thread, that I don’t do is line/load GFIs. Whether it was OK with NEC code or it’s not OK with NEC code to hook up outside receptacles to GFIs in bathrooms, it’s always been a hack job to do it.

Now the only question I have is, should I start twisting my #12 wires together, or just keep shoving them into wire nuts that are UL Listed to do the twisting for me? I mean, it is UL and they really smart and everything…


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

LAElectrician said:


> ...............Later, because of WW11 metal shortages, ungrounded Romex was allowed in some places, ............…


Romex started out ungrounded, and it was not until 1959 that receps in dwellings were required to be grounded.

And ungrounded NM is still available today.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

480sparky said:


> And ungrounded NM is still available today.


Where did you see that :blink:

Let me guess Mr. Haney's hardware store?


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> Where did you see that :blink:


You live a very sheltered life.


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## LAElectrician (Dec 8, 2009)

480sparky said:


> And ungrounded NM is still available today.


Do you use it?


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## LAElectrician (Dec 8, 2009)

Fun Facts about the start of Romex...

When in the 1920's Charlie Abbott of the Rome Wire Co. 
developed and proposed recognition in the Code of a cable 
assembly consisting of insulated copper conductors and 
nonmetallic wrappings, the industry was shocked and 
violent opposition to recognition in the Code developed. 


The representative of one manufacturer of metal wiring 
products traveled the country with a cage full of rats 
and samples of nonmetallic cable to show how rats 
would gnaw into such cable and cause short circuits and 
fires. Some trial installations in the Chicago stockyards 
showed that rats would indeed damage such cable, 
but primarily when it was run across their runways.
 
Nonmetallic cables with rat repellent coverings were 
developed and when a special technical subcommittee 
recommended a limited recognition of the cables, 
the Electrical Committee accepted the recommendation 
and the cable was included in the Code under the 
designation "Nonmetallic Sheathed Cable" 
although most electricians called it by the originator's 
trade name "Romex."


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Black4Truck said:


> Where did you see that :blink:......


Central Vacs.... all day long.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Central Vacs.... all day long.


Who makes it? :blink:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Black4Truck said:


> Who makes it? :blink:


 
I have no idea. I just find ungrounded NM hooked up to CVac outlets and I have to hook them up to a nearby GP circuit to run the beater brush.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

480sparky said:


> I have no idea. I just find ungrounded NM hooked up to CVac outlets and I have to hook them up to a nearby GP circuit to run the beater brush.


 
Are you sure the installer didn't just cut the ground off.. 14/2 and no ground HAS to be expensive


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