# Light Fed Before Switch



## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

I think that you are required to use the white as the hot. 404.2b


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

Feed the freaking switch!
I still catch "electricians" using switched N's at the device. Drives me insane.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

I have no idea about this poll. I feed the switch so I answered switched conductors-- is that correct-- it's hard to know from the thread what you want.


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I have no idea about this poll. I feed the switch so I answered switched conductors-- is that correct-- it's hard to know from the thread what you want.


yeah you are right; run power to switch FIRST, no switched N's.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Run it to the light , feed the white on the way down,,, no need to reindentify it either. Or better yet, feed a three wire thru and continue your circuit post switch


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## pudge565 (Dec 8, 2007)

Ok let me clarify, I am not talking about switching neutrals. I want to know when you run a light first then the switch the 2 wire that you run to the switch do you put constant power on the black or on the white. If you are further confused I will just spill the beans on why this came about.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Pudge, if you are usuing the switch leg from a cable then the white wire must be marked other than white and it must be the constant hot.



> 200.7(C) Circuits of 50 Volts or More. The use of insulation that is white or gray or that has three continuous white stripes for other than a grounded conductor for circuits of 50 volts or more shall be permitted only as in (1) through (3).
> (1) If part of a cable assembly and *where the insulation is permanently reidentified to indicate its use as an ungrounded conductor*, by painting or other effective means at its termination, and at each location where the conductor is visible and accessible. Identification shall encircle the insulation and shall be a color other than white, gray, or green.
> (2) Where a cable assembly contains an insulated conductor for single-pole, 3-way or 4-way switch loops and the conductor with white or gray insulation or a marking of three continuous white stripes* is used for the supply to the switch but not as a return conductor from the switch to the switched outlet. *In these applications, the conductor with white or gray insulation or with three continuous white stripes shall be permanently reidentified to indicate its use by painting or other effective means at its terminations and at each location where the conductor is visible and accessible.


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## pudge565 (Dec 8, 2007)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Pudge, if you are usuing the switch leg from a cable then the white wire must be marked other than white and it must be the constant hot.


That is exactly what I was after. I showed this to my instructor and he is still saying that I am wrong. He tried telling me that it states "outlets" to which I showed the NEC definition. To that he said that a light is not equipment. So i gave him the definition fo equipment which states luminares are defined as such. He still disagrees with me over this. I just don't see how I can get him to understand this.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

This will all be a moot point when the '11 comes out. Those of you who feed the light first and run a switch loop down will need to use 3-wire cable so you can have your noodle in the switch box.


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

480sparky said:


> This will all be a moot point when the '11 comes out. Those of you who feed the light first and run a switch loop down will need to use 3-wire cable so you can have your noodle in the switch box.


Really? Thats gonna jack some guys up. I rarely do this anyways, so I doubt it will bother me.


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## Voltech (Nov 30, 2009)

I didnt think anyone did the ol "down on white back on black" (I think thats how it goes) on new construction anymore. We always run our home runs thur the switch box.


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## pudge565 (Dec 8, 2007)

480sparky said:


> This will all be a moot point when the '11 comes out. Those of you who feed the light first and run a switch loop down will need to use 3-wire cable so you can have your noodle in the switch box.


Really do you know the CMP's reasoning for this?


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

Voltech said:


> I didnt think anyone did the ol "down on white back on black" (I think thats how it goes) on new construction anymore. We always run our home runs thur the switch box.


That's what I do most of the time...Sometimes I run one into the light first, so there is access to a circuit in the future...I also pull extras into the attic.


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

pudge565 said:


> Really do you know the CMP's reasoning for this?


I assume it has something to do with induction heating. It's the same thing with the hvl switch legs.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

pudge565 said:


> Really do you know the CMP's reasoning for this?


It's been a proposal from the low-voltage industry for years now. They've been trying to require a neutral in switch boxes so their techs have one to utilize instead of cheating and using the grounding conductor.

For the past 6-8 Code cycles, the CMPs position was it's a design issue. If the low-voltage industry doesn't want to rewire things to be safe, that's their problem and not the NECs. Apparently, the CMP just got tired of the crybabies.

So instead of requiring them to rewire a perfectly safe installation that does not meet their needs, we're going to be required to do it for them.

Same thing happened in the '08 because the telephone and cable people cried and moaned about having to drive their own ground rods. Now we gotta fork over money and labor to make their work go easier by giving them a place to tie into ours.


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

Gotcha...How do you know this stuff?:laughing:


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## Nolatigabait2 (Apr 5, 2010)

*Cable Guys*

Here is what cable guys do.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

NolaTigaBait said:


> Gotcha...How do you know this stuff?:laughing:



I read the ROPs.


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## pudge565 (Dec 8, 2007)

480 do you know where I can read the ROPs? I downloaded the draft of the '11 but my ancient computer technology told me there was an error that could not be corrected.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

pudge565 said:


> That is exactly what I was after. I showed this to my instructor and he is still saying that I am wrong. He tried telling me that it states "outlets" to which I showed the NEC definition. To that he said that a light is not equipment. So i gave him the definition fo equipment which states luminares are defined as such. He still disagrees with me over this. I just don't see how I can get him to understand this.


Is there a state inspector who can straighten out the local inspector? I don't see how you can make him see it. If you did what you said I am not sure anything you say will change it. He is, IMO, very wrong on this.

Did you show him the definition of lighting outlet in art. 100



> Lighting Outlet. An *outlet* intended for the direct connection of a lampholder or luminaire.


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## pudge565 (Dec 8, 2007)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Is there a state inspector who can straighten out the local inspector? I don't see how you can make him see it. If you did what you said I am not sure anything you say will change it. He is, IMO, very wrong on this.
> 
> Did you show him the definition of lighting outlet in art. 100


Not dealing with an inspector just the instuctor of my tech school. I will try that definition, but I don't think he will be swayed. I have corrected him on code before most of which I know from spending tim eon here. One was about AFCI protection. He thought it was only 20 amp circuits or something like that. I told him no it is pretty much anything that is not GFCI. I then proceded to show him the code.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

pudge565 said:


> 480 do you know where I can read the ROPs? I downloaded the draft of the '11 but my ancient computer technology told me there was an error that could not be corrected.


Contact the NFPA. They'll send you a printed copy. And the ROP is not a draft, only the '11 is right now. The ROP is written in stone.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Nolatigabait2 said:


> Here is what cable guys do.



Worthless troll


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## Nolatigabait2 (Apr 5, 2010)

*Tos*

I agree. Dang them Trolls.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Worthless troll


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> Worthless troll


That would be considered a double negative, just be careful because the spelling police will soon be off "vacation" :whistling2:


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> just be careful because the spelling police will soon be off "vacation" :whistling2:


F'em :jester:


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

thanks for the post on this 480. I got out of the habit of running switch legs after being burnt a few times having to go back and install dimmers, but I still do it from time to time. guess it's time to stop permanently.


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## SparkYZ (Jan 20, 2010)

New construction, I feed the switch. If I'm doing a TI, or a remodel, or doing a cutin box, I will most definitely use a 12-2 or. 12-3 for my switchlegs. Why snake two cables down a finished wall when one will do? The only time I worry about a noodle is if I'm dealing with low voltage dimmers


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

SparkYZ said:


> ........The only time I worry about a noodle is if I'm dealing with low voltage dimmers


The 2011 will require noodles in switchboxes.


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## SparkYZ (Jan 20, 2010)

480sparky said:


> The 2011 will require noodles in switchboxes.


This is true, but I won't do it until the cities I work in ADOPT the 2011. Some are still on 2005.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

480sparky said:


> The 2011 will require noodles in switchboxes.


 Really??? I like it. It won't have any issue's with that code change.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

william1978 said:


> Really??? I like it. It won't have any issue's with that code change.



It will if you use switch loops instead of switch legs.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

Black4Truck said:


> That would be considered a double negative, just be careful because the spelling police will soon be off "vacation" :whistling2:


 :laughing::laughing:


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

480sparky said:


> The 2011 will require noodles in switchboxes.


Further proof that the NEC is nothing more than a dirty money making scam.

Not all switch boxes. There are execeptions.

_(C) Switches Controlling Lighting Loads. Where
switches control lighting loads supplied by a grounded general
purpose branch circuit, a grounded circuit conductor
shall be provided at the switch location. [ROP 9-95]

Exception: The grounded circuit conductor shall be permitted
to be omitted from the switch enclosure where either
of the conditions in (1) or (2) apply: [ROP 9-95]

(1) Conductors for switches controlling lighting loads enter
the device box through a raceway. [ROP 9-95]
(2) Cable assemblies for switches controlling lighting enter
the box through a framing cavity that is open at the
top or bottom on the same floor level, or through a
wall, floor, or ceiling that is unfinished on one side.
[ROP 9-95_


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

That makes no sense...Either require it or not...I think we could have done without this change.


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

NolaTigaBait said:


> That makes no sense...Either require it or not...I think we could have done without this change.


it's too bad it wasn't required way back in the 40's; I get tired of adding a new switch to a box with no freaking power there and I have to go hunting.


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

BuzzKill said:


> it's too bad it wasn't required way back in the 40's; I get tired of adding a new switch to a box with no freaking power there and I have to go hunting.


You add to ungrounded circuits? Bad boy.:laughing:...But seriously, I hear ya on that one. I usually run my feeds to the switches, but every now and then I use a switch loop.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

electricmanscott said:


> _.......__
> (2) Cable assemblies for switches controlling lighting enter
> the box through a framing cavity that is open at the
> top or bottom on the same floor level, or through a
> ...


Well, that'll last until the low-voltage industry starts crying again when they begin to encounter remodels that change that.

So I run a 14/3 down to the bottom of the basement stairs for a 3-way..... hot and two travelers. Nice and legal because the basement is unfinished. Then a year later, the basement gets finished, and there's no noodle for the electronic dimmer the HO wants. "That's OK", the installer (sans license) will say, "I'll just use the bare ground like I always have!"


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Well, that'll last until the low-voltage industry starts crying again when they begin to encounter remodels that change that.
> 
> So I run a 14/3 down to the bottom of the basement stairs for a 3-way..... hot and two travelers. Nice and legal because the basement is unfinished. Then a year later, the basement gets finished, and there's no noodle for the electronic dimmer the HO wants. "That's OK", the installer (sans license) will say, "I'll just use the bare ground like I always have!"


You'll need the "what if" code to address that. :no:


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

electricmanscott said:


> You'll need the "what if" code to address that. :no:


 Us electrician's are bad about that. "What if this or that".


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## Nephi (Mar 20, 2010)

I believe 2011 will have a "what if " article.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

Nephi said:


> I believe 2011 will have a "what if " article.


 Just great!!!!!:laughing:


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## Voltech (Nov 30, 2009)

NolaTigaBait said:


> You add to ungrounded circuits? Bad boy.:laughing:...But seriously, I hear ya on that one. I usually run my feeds to the switches, but every now and then I use a switch loop.


I was taught to always put your home runs above your knees and below your shoulders..

I hate Switch loops, but I have run them.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

> _WTF does it matter!_



For me it depends on job conditions and layout.


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## AWKrueger (Aug 4, 2008)

Alright, can someone please clarify what a "noodle" is?


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

AWKrueger said:


> Alright, can someone please clarify what a "noodle" is?


That is a neutral or grounded conductor.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> I was taught to always put your home runs above your knees and below your shoulders..


 
I like that!



> I hate Switch loops, but I have run them.


Same here. Never in new construction but ocaisionally it makes sense in a remodel situation.

We call it a suicide switch (because the white is hot)

If you used the black as hot you would have two white wires at the fixture.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

AWKrueger said:


> Alright, can someone please clarify what a "noodle" is?



It is a tools idea of comedy.


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## AWKrueger (Aug 4, 2008)

Bob Badger said:


> It is a tools idea of comedy.


 I got keep these new terms straight. Peckerhead was another I've never heard. Not that I plan on using them on the job.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

AWKrueger said:


> I got keep these new terms straight. Peckerhead was another I've never heard. Not that I plan on using them on the job.


 There are new words I hear on here every day. People call them different based on where they live in the country. Just like down here in the south we use the word Ya'll.:laughing:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

AWKrueger said:


> ........... Peckerhead was another I've never heard. Not that I plan on using them on the job.



I don't think you'll have much choice if you start hooking up motors.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Bob Badger said:


> It is a tools idea of comedy.



I resemble that remark! :laughing:


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## Electric Al (Mar 13, 2010)

To quote Norm Crosby: It's all imatestical as far as I'm circumsised ! ! !


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## danickstr (Mar 21, 2010)

the reason the neutral is called a "noodle" is because it is not hooked to anything in the switch box, in this case, and just flops around in the box like a noodle, without anything but an orange wirenut on its head. It would be used by some specialty dimmers to carry the "intelligence" part of the radio/pulse code dimming system, if that system is installed later, as they rely on the ungrounded conductor to carry the signals uninterrupted, and some just need a neutral for who knows why.

If you ran into a three way switch with two 14-2's for example, the guy might have brought the extra neutral into the box and left it, in which case you could add a remodel receptacle off of that circuit down below it, for example, since there was a "noodle" there to serve as a neutral. Otherwise, a switch box can often be useless for a quick receptacle add, sans neutral (grounded conductor)


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

danickstr said:


> the reason the neutral is called a "noodle" is because it is not hooked to anything in the switch box, in this case, and just flops around in the box like a noodle, without anything but an orange wirenut on its head......


My vote is, it's just a bastardization of the word 'neutral'.



danickstr said:


> ..........It would be used by some specialty dimmers to carry the "intelligence" part of the radio/pulse code dimming system, if that system is installed later, as they rely on the ungrounded conductor to carry the signals uninterrupted, and some just need a neutral for who knows why............


I don't think 'smart' dimmers need the neutral to 'carry the radio/pulse code', but more likely because the electronics are simply a 120v load, just like a VCR or computer..... needs both an ungrounded (hot) and grounded) neutral) to get the brains inside the power to function.


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## AWKrueger (Aug 4, 2008)

480sparky said:


> I don't think you'll have much choice if you start hooking up motors.


 Whats funny about that is we were working on doing PM's on a big RTU and I used the word peckerhead and my co-worker had no clue what I was talking about. And then didn't believe me when I told him thats what it was called.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

AWKrueger said:


> I got keep these new terms straight. Peckerhead was another I've never heard. Not that I plan on using them on the job.





480sparky said:


> I don't think you'll have much choice if you start hooking up motors.


 And you will have you hands all over and in that peckerhead.:laughing::laughing:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

william1978 said:


> And you will have you hands all over and in that peckerhead.:laughing::laughing:



Better than having 3M Skotchcoat all over my hands while they're in a buried PVC box.:yes:


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## danickstr (Mar 21, 2010)

i had only heard of the neutral as a noodle when it was not used but apparently it is just a slang term for neutral. Just my limited exposure "exposed" on a national forum once again :yes:

The old X10 system was explained to me years ago as using the common connectivity of the house neutral system, but it might have just been in their brochure.


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## geo5509 (Mar 9, 2010)

So what about dead ended 3ways? Not gonna be able to do those no more either?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

geo5509 said:


> So what about dead ended 3ways? Not gonna be able to do those no more either?


Sure you can. Just use 14/4.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Sure you can. Just use 14/4.


14/4 is awesome, you can carry travelers and a constant feed/neutral all in one cable between boxes.


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## geo5509 (Mar 9, 2010)

Got ya, never thought about 14/4.


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## mikaylawilson (Apr 23, 2010)

geo5509 said:


> So what about dead ended 3ways? Not gonna be able to do those no more either?


How could u say a good electrician isn't cheap?

U can find AllTradesUK with *cheap electricians* who are also professionals.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

mikaylawilson said:


> How could u say a good electrician isn't cheap?
> 
> U can find AllTradesUK with *cheap electricians* who are also professionals.



No thanks. We're not into spammers here. Now go away, you bother us.


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## franklogan (Apr 23, 2010)

can any one give advise on the best way to learn the culcs for the formulars first level 2 city&guilds


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