# I'm an environmentalist, and Electrical work suits me.



## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

kaboler said:


> Big annoying thread:
> 
> I'm an environmentalist. I like to save wattage. For every watt I save, I help save the world (imo) plus the bit of wattage lost to transmission. I don't record what I save while I'm on the company's dime, but I record what I save when I go above and beyond the call of duty.
> 
> ...


Tongue in cheek, post? Maybe? :001_huh:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

kaboler said:


> Big annoying thread:
> 
> 
> Anyone else an environmentalist? Or no.





> Anyone else an environmentalist? Or no


Not me 

Is there a problem with the envionment


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

oldtimer said:


> Tongue in cheek, post? Maybe? :001_huh:


Nope! But I am really tired, so if it sounds dumb, it might be dumb hahahaha.


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## Fum Duck (Jan 2, 2011)

Sir, please don't forget "vend-miser". They are now in the lays of nothing-ness in some forgotten stank hole abode in the dusty school which I work.


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

300 w incandesants?

I've never seen one that big.

And you changed them to 42W cfl and no-one noticed?


Cmon.


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

Yeah 300w incandescents. They're huge. Could be pretty old, because the wiring in the place is crimped and soldered, not maretted.

Okay, maybe people noticed, maybe not. But, they'll never know it was me! Only electricians look up you know.


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## farlsincharge (Dec 31, 2010)

300's are common, at least they are here. There's a 1000 watt bulb at the shop, still in its cardboard. No idea how old it is though.

Now if you'll excuse me, My oven has been preheating for over an hour and i really need to go check on the tire fire.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

I am an environmentalist, but you have to be a realist. Much of the CRAP passed off as green, is nothing more than a feel good approach to separate you, tax payers and the public in general from their green.

You also need to realize at some point you become "THAT GUY" and people will put you into the category of the homeless guy on the corner talking to the ants, (YOR BECOME A NUT JOB)


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

brian john said:


> I am an environmentalist, but you have to be a realist. Much of the CRAP passed off as green, is nothing more than a feel good approach to separate you, tax payers and the public in general from their green.
> 
> You also need to realize at some point you become "THAT GUY" and people will put you into the category of the homeless guy on the corner talking to the ants, (YOR BECOME A NUT JOB)


 All true! And the homeless guy looks at us like we're crazy hahahaha.

I'm not media green, I'm real green. Take a look at my thread somewhere where I say I dumpster my flourescents hahahaha. But in Alberta Canada, wattage comes from burning coal.

http://ets.aeso.ca/ets_web/ip/Market/Reports/CSDReportServlet


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

What is really funny is "environmentalist's" quoted in the news about this or that and, oh my gosh! we need to do what THEY say or the world will end. They are one small group of people that are anti-capitalist, job killing morons. Communist's, for short.


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

BuzzKill said:


> What is really funny is "environmentalist's" quoted in the news about this or that and, oh my gosh! we need to do what THEY say or the world will end. They are one small group of people that are anti-capitalist, job killing morons. Communist's, for short.


Communist? I prefer Star Trek lovers over Communist. Imagine, a future without money. But how do they play poker?

Consider this: my neighbor drives a gas-guzzling SUV with a ribbon that says "support our troops". Meanwhile, our troops are out there making war for they very oil my neighbor needs. Not to mention that a lot of that money that my neighbor spends on gas goes to governments that aren't communist, but out to get democratic capitalist governments.

So if you're not an environmentalist, you're really pro-war, pro-anarchy and pro-terrorist. That's mostly true. But me? I love Star Trek and would like to see our current goal, which is to consume as much as we can for as long as we can, to something like "for the greater good."


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

kaboler said:


> because the wiring in the place is crimped and soldered, not *maretted*.


Dude, this is America, we don't speakah dah French. 

When I see soldered, its typically twisted, soldered, then wrapped in cloth tape.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

kaboler said:


> So if you're not an environmentalist, you're really pro-war, pro-anarchy and pro-terrorist. That's mostly true.


YEAH!! Refudiate that BuzzKill!


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

kaboler said:


> Communist? I prefer Star Trek lovers over Communist. Imagine, a future without money. But how do they play poker?
> 
> Consider this: my neighbor drives a gas-guzzling SUV with a ribbon that says "support our troops". Meanwhile, our troops are out there making war for they very oil my neighbor needs. Not to mention that a lot of that money that my neighbor spends on gas goes to governments that aren't communist, but out to get democratic capitalist governments.
> 
> So if you're not an environmentalist, you're really pro-war, pro-anarchy and pro-terrorist. That's mostly true. But me? I love Star Trek and would like to see our current goal, which is to consume as much as we can for as long as we can, to something like "for the greater good."


So what do you drive? a gas fueled truck or a hybrid truck?
the US could be self sufficient, except for the few hippie environmentalist's preventing this.
VERY much agreed, all the oil money the US pays is spent on terrorist activities....f'n sad no one sees this but you and me.


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

You don't have marettes in the USA? Hahaha what do you call em down there? I think marettes are a tradename but that's what we call them.

Cloth over those splices? Wierd, but cool. The ones I dealt with were twisted together, soldered, and topped with a little plastic hat that was pinched.


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

BuzzKill said:


> So what do you drive? a gas fueled truck or a hybrid truck?
> the US could be self sufficient, except for the few hippie environmentalist's preventing this.
> VERY much agreed, all the oil money the US pays is spent on terrorist activities....f'n sad no one sees this but you and me.


Sarah Palin said that the BP disaster could have been prevented if environmentalsts allowed the oil companies to drill in protected areas, which is true, and hard to deny.

I'm just saying I'll make the extra effort, and being an electrician probably one of the best ways of being an environmentalist.

And i'm not immune to gas guzzling. I drive a hyundai elantra, and my work van is a ford econoline. But I drive softly in both vehicles and walk when I can. I care, and I try my best.


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

kaboler said:


> You don't have marettes in the USA? Hahaha what do you call em down there? I think marettes are a tradename but that's what we call them.
> 
> Cloth over those splices? Wierd, but cool. The ones I dealt with were twisted together, soldered, and topped with a little plastic hat that was pinched.



Marettes......... Wirenuts by Marr.

They used to solder joints, and then wrap them with friction tape.

Very Safe...:whistling2:


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

kaboler said:


> Sarah Palin said that the BP disaster could have been prevented if environmentalsts allowed the oil companies to drill in protected areas, which is true, and hard to deny.
> 
> I'm just saying I'll make the extra effort, and being an electrician probably one of the best ways of being an environmentalist.
> 
> And i'm not immune to gas guzzling. I drive a hyundai elantra, and my work van is a ford econoline. But I drive softly in both vehicles and walk when I can. I care, and I try my best.


One point you miss:



WE ARE ALL DOOMED. Period. Just take care of your family now and prepare for the worst, whatever that may be. It's sad life ain't it?


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

kaboler said:


> Sarah Palin said that the BP disaster could have been prevented if environmentalsts allowed the oil companies to drill in protected areas, which is true, and hard to deny.
> 
> I'm just saying I'll make the extra effort, and being an electrician probably one of the best ways of being an environmentalist.
> 
> And i'm not immune to gas guzzling. I drive a hyundai elantra, and my work van is a ford econoline. But I drive softly in both vehicles and walk when I can. I care, and I try my best.


Palin/Coulter 2012!

or...Coulter/Malkin 2012


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

BuzzKill said:


> ...Coulter/Malkin 2012


:laughing::laughing: You crack me up :laughing::laughing:


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

oldtimer said:


> Marettes......... Wirenuts by Marr.


Is that those ceramic wirenuts? Looks like made in the same factory as sinks and toilets?


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

miller_elex said:


> :laughing::laughing: You crack me up :laughing::laughing:


eh, they'd make a good 3some! :laughing:


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

BuzzKill said:


> eh, they'd make a good 3some! :laughing:


Miller is DOWN with that! :laughing:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

BuzzKill said:


> eh, they'd make a good 3some! :laughing:


 :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::laughing::laughing:


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

OP, which world do you think you are "saving" by replacing light bulbs. The world is doing fine thank you very much, it's the idiots that live on it that are subject to needing saving. And guess what? Thats been handled for us.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

macmikeman said:


> OP, which world do you think you are "saving" by replacing light bulbs. The world is doing fine thank you very much, it's the idiots that live on it that are subject to needing saving. And guess what? Thats been handled for us.


Yep because when we are all dead and gone, the Earth will be going strong, not missing a beat one way or the other.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

By installing CFL's you are probably doing more environmental damage than by using standard incandescents. Since CFL's have mecury in them and everyone disposes of them by tossing them in the trash you're introducing that mercury into our landfills and air when the lamps break. I'm all for trying to do things to help the environment but CFL's and solar panels don't do anything for the environment.


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

nitro71 said:


> By installing CFL's you are probably doing more environmental damage than by using standard incandescents. Since CFL's have mecury in them and everyone disposes of them by tossing them in the trash you're introducing that mercury into our landfills and air when the lamps break. I'm all for trying to do things to help the environment but CFL's and solar panels don't do anything for the environment.


In Alberta, we burn coal for power, and coal releases more mercury than a cfl. There's mercury-savings in cfls in my area. Plus, that's pollution, not CO2 emissions, so while both are concerning, whatever amount of mercury that's in a cfl isn't all that exciting.


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/20/science/earth/20brfs-MERCURYFOUND_BRF.html?_r=2&em

"Emissions from coal-fired power plants are the largest source of mercury contamination in the United States"


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

kaboler said:


> "Emissions from coal-fired power plants are the largest source of mercury contamination in the United States"


Yep, via prevailing winds from CHINA.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

But did you also take into account the lead on the printed circuit board and the chemicals involved in making those circuit boards and the plastic case. I'm just not buying the fact that a CFL is really environmentaly friendly. It does use less energy. How much more energy is required in making it? Disposing of it? If the mercury is miniscule in them how come you're not supposed to throw them out?


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

nitro71 said:


> By installing CFL's you are probably doing more environmental damage than by using standard incandescents. Since CFL's have mecury in them and everyone disposes of them by tossing them in the trash you're introducing that mercury into our landfills and air when the lamps break. I'm all for trying to do things to help the environment but CFL's and solar panels don't do anything for the environment.


 The only gripe I have with that is that coal-fired plants release a huge volume of mercury into the environment. They are the number one source of mercury pollution in this country. The amount of power saved by using CFLs actually reduces the amount of mercury contamination, even if every single bulb were to be simply tossed into the trash.

That said, I do agree entirely that solar panels are mostly crappy gimmicks. :laughing:

-John

EDIT: Damn I type slow. How did like 12 other people beat me to this while I was typing??


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

nitro71 said:


> If the mercury is miniscule in them how come you're not supposed to throw them out?


Because of the EVIL environmentalists!

You're right too. Look at what it takes to make a Prius. There's good and bad, for sure. CFLs isn't a final solution, it's today's best solution for both cost, energy savings, and environmentalism in coal-powered areas.

If I lived in an area where we get our power from nuclear, or hydro, or wind, you'd even be MORE right.

Plus, the mercury gets absorbed into the phosphor, so it's not like it's really being released anyway. As for all the plastics and stuff? You should see what I throw out on a day to day basis.


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## kwired (Dec 20, 2009)

kaboler said:


> And i'm not immune to gas guzzling. I drive a hyundai elantra, and my work van is a ford econoline. But I drive softly in both vehicles and walk when I can. I care, and I try my best.


 
You could ride a horse. 

But then you will need to feed it, and what you feed it likely used some fossil fuel to plant, irrigate, harvest, and maybe had some other processing. 

If you water it with water from a man made well it takes energy to pump the water plus maybe it uses more energy to receive some treatment to make sure it is safe. 

On top of all that the horse will release methane gas at times.

What kind of carbon emissions resulted from just your OP in this thread?


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

kwired said:


> You could ride a horse.
> 
> But then you will need to feed it, and what you feed it likely used some fossil fuel to plant, irrigate, harvest, and maybe had some other processing.


But I wouldn't need a 6 foot ladder anymore!!!


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

I would consider myself an environmentalist. I ride my bike around town when I'm running errands. I opposite environmentally destructive policies. I think very little of humans in general, actually. The rest of you guys are right; Earth will still be here doing its thing long after we kill ourselves off. But that doesn't mean we have a free ticket to destroy as much as we can before we're gone.

On a side note, my 7 year-old just ran up and insisted that he add this to my post, so here it is:

happy new year

from jason and eric :bangin:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Just my opinion (LIKE DUH) but I feel everyone should be pro environment with common sense. Who wants to leave a mess for the next generation to clean up. Recycle, minimize using plastic bags, don't litter most basic stuff and grow from these steps to PRACTICAL moves that help.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

kaboler said:


> Because of the EVIL environmentalists!
> 
> You're right too. Look at what it takes to make a Prius. There's good and bad, for sure. CFLs isn't a final solution, it's today's best solution for both cost, energy savings, and environmentalism in coal-powered areas.
> 
> ...


What are you doing? You're conforming to the general mood of the people who posted here for some reason.

I'll proudly admit that my service van has two waste buckets: one for garbage, and one for recyclables.

:thumbup:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

erics37 said:


> What are you doing? You're conforming to the general mood of the people who posted here for some reason.
> 
> I'll proudly admit that my service van has two waste buckets: one for garbage, and one for recyclables.
> 
> :thumbup:


Better than two Coke cans one for your current drink the other for your Skoal spit. Riding with an employee I accidentally picked up the wrong can and durn near took a sip, luckily the smell stopped me.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

brian john said:


> Better than two Coke cans one for your current drink the other for your Skoal spit. Riding with an employee I accidentally picked up the wrong can and durn near took a sip, luckily the smell stopped me.


Here's a good reason not to drink from just any can:laughing:


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

brian john said:


> Better than two Coke cans one for your current drink the other for your Skoal spit. Riding with an employee I accidentally picked up the wrong can and durn near took a sip, luckily the smell stopped me.


Ugh, chew spit is so vile









If I had taken a swig of that s**t I would have flipped my lid.



HARRY304E said:


> Here's a good reason not to drink from just any can:laughing:


:laughing::laughing: Classic.

My favorite is still the "You just ate the most acid I've ever seen anyone eat in my entire life" bit.

Mellow... mellow... relax... AAAAAAAUUUUGGGHHH!!!


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

erics37 said:


> Ugh, chew spit is so vile
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 I just watched it again:laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

erics37 said:


> What are you doing? You're conforming to the general mood of the people who posted here for some reason.
> 
> I'll proudly admit that my service van has two waste buckets: one for garbage, and one for recyclables.
> :thumbup:


I only recycle copper and aluminum. Everything else goes in the dumpster except when I can grab ferrous metals. I changed out a bunch of fixtures on Friday, and I cut all the copper out, and I had metal husks left. Filled my van full of metals, and I even grabbed a hot water tank sitting beside our dumpster, and took it all over to a scrapper. I don't get money, but it's on my way home, and they take it for free.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

kaboler said:


> I only recycle copper and aluminum. Everything else goes in the dumpster except when I can grab ferrous metals. I changed out a bunch of fixtures on Friday, and I cut all the copper out, and I had metal husks left. Filled my van full of metals, and I even grabbed a hot water tank sitting beside our dumpster, and took it all over to a scrapper. I don't get money, but it's on my way home, and they take it for free.





> I don't get money, but it's on my way home, and they take it for free.




Why do you do it if you don't get money


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> Why do you do it if you don't get money


Because there's more to life than money and he's recycling that crap instead of tossing it in the dump.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

erics37 said:


> Because there's more to life than money and he's recycling that crap instead of tossing it in the dump.


 Remember money is a great thing to have when a recession hits and all of a sudden there is no work for months on end


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

HARRY304E said:


> Here's a good reason not to drink from just any can:laughing:


And this holds up, was just laughing my tail off.


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

I don't live in a beautiful city like Boston. I live in a cold crappy place, and there's lots of work up in cold crappy places. They're predicting a labour shortage starting next year. Gonna need 100,000 workers by 2013. Especially if oil hits 100.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

I guess i'm evil or the opposite, I dump trash and ashtrays out the window, burn plastic off wire for scrap and drive a neglected diesel that spews black death out the tailpipe when I get on it.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Shockdoc said:


> I guess i'm evil or the opposite, I dump trash and ashtrays out the window, burn plastic off wire for scrap and drive a neglected diesel that spews black death out the tailpipe when I get on it.



Why doesn't that surprise me?


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

Just a minor nitpick. It isn't 17.5 MW per year. It's 21 MW-hrs per year. Just sayin'.


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## doubleoh7 (Dec 5, 2009)

I do not believe in the environment.

I have a hard time believing in mankind too. It all started back in the seventies when I saw a combination toilet paper dispenser / radio. I am also disapointed when I see things like a plastic holder for Hostess ding dongs that looks just like a Hostess ding dong!:001_huh: I've seen them in Wal Mart.

The earth will be just fine with or without us.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

doubleoh7 said:


> I
> 
> The earth will be just fine with or without us.


I agree 100%, but even a dog knows better than to doodoo in it's own house. 

It is too simple to do minor things to keep your house (world) a bit cleaner.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

kaboler said:


> Big annoying thread:


Correct. ......


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Reading this thread makes me so proud to be an electrician because it is obvious electricians are the 'smarterest' people on the planet and know how to fix anything.:laughing::laughing:


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## doubleoh7 (Dec 5, 2009)

brian john said:


> I agree 100%, but even a dog knows better than to doodoo in it's own house.
> 
> It is too simple to do minor things to keep your house (world) a bit cleaner.


 
Common sense..... Like you said. :thumbsup:


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

doubleoh7 said:


> Common sense..... Like you said. :thumbsup:


I'm not a tree hugger. But I do try to stop stupid. Common sense is in short supply.


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## Ghandiswrath (Nov 1, 2010)

InPhase277 said:


> Just a minor nitpick. It isn't 17.5 MW per year. It's 21 MW-hrs per year. Just sayin'.


Forgot to deduct how much energy they are using now :thumbsup:.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

Wirenuting said:


> I'm not a tree hugger. But I do try to stop stupid. Common sense is in short supply.


Hahaha, that picture is pretty good.

Here all the storm sewer drains in the street have a little tag attached to the curb next to them with a picture of a fish, and it says "DO NOT DUMP TOXIC MATERIALS; STORM DRAINS LEAD TO OCEAN."

Those tags are so inaccurate. How the hell can fish live in there with all the oil and crap I'm dumping down it?


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

erics37 said:


> Hahaha, that picture is pretty good.
> 
> Here all the storm sewer drains in the street have a little tag attached to the curb next to them with a picture of a fish, and it says "DO NOT DUMP TOXIC MATERIALS; STORM DRAINS LEAD TO OCEAN."
> 
> Those tags are so inaccurate. How the hell can fish live in there with all the oil and crap I'm dumping down it?


I know what you mean. 
I don't drink lake water in the mid-west. Fish screw in it. 

I grew up in Jersey were the tide was red and 7 kills floated the over flow to the shore.


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

Reminds me of the big plastic swirling thing in the Pacific.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Pacific_Garbage_Patch

Now THAT is our legacy


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## j johnson (Jul 20, 2009)

cfl's contan mercry! and that to the list.


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## doubleoh7 (Dec 5, 2009)

Don't forget that the earth has been through massive environmental changes befor the industrial revolution and even before mankind. Mankind is arrogant to think he can destroy the earth.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

doubleoh7 said:


> Don't forget that the earth has been through massive environmental changes befor the industrial revolution and even before mankind. Mankind is arrogant to think he can destroy the earth.




Thats the smartest thing I have ever heard you say....it almost makes up for the crustie cookie thing.:laughing:


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## doubleoh7 (Dec 5, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> Thats the smartest thing I have ever heard you say....it almost makes up for the crustie cookie thing.:laughing:


 
The "crustie cookie" thing is absolutely brilliant. I have just been to despondent to bring it up here lately.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

doubleoh7 said:


> Don't forget that the earth has been through massive environmental changes befor the industrial revolution and even before mankind. Mankind is arrogant to think he can destroy the earth.


Maybe all the used motor oil I pour in a hole will one day be refined.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

The garbage patch thing is way way overestimated. The claim is it is larger than Texas. Another scientist from the University of Oregon who sails around in the Pacific Ocean never saw anything larger than a few feet across decided to do a double check study. She got a government grant to do it to boot. She was able to totally debunk the story of the big patch...

Yes we do need to stop dumping garbage into the oceans. We also need to stop dumping garbage into the media and the minds of gullible children and other fools that are easily led into slavery to support those who make up such rubbish.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

doubleoh7 said:


> Don't forget that the earth has been through massive environmental changes befor the industrial revolution and even before mankind. Mankind is arrogant to think he can destroy the earth.


Amen to that. I'll be long dead when there any real effects anyway so I don't give a crap. Live for today! :thumbup:


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## Skipp (May 23, 2010)

The Earth has been through some severe conditions in its 4 billion years. Do we really think a few aluminum cans and plastic bags are going to destroy it? What makes you think Earth shares the discrimination against bags and cans? Maybe the Earth sees them as its children. Afterall, the where made from Earths resources. The Earth is not going anywhere. People are the ones who are leaving.


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## Kirker (Sep 28, 2010)

doubleoh7 said:


> Don't forget that the earth has been through massive environmental changes befor the industrial revolution and even before mankind. Mankind is arrogant to think he can destroy the earth.



*Mankind is a fool to think it can do any wasteful, horrible destructive thing it desires and NOT destroy itself or the earth.*


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Kirker said:


> *Mankind is a fool to think it can do any wasteful, horrible destructive thing it desires and NOT destroy itself or the earth.*


The Earth could care less, it is an inanimate object that will shrug the impact of mankind off like a loose hair on it's head once we have passed. The impact of the damage we do is to the living.


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## doubleoh7 (Dec 5, 2009)

brian john said:


> The Earth could care less, it is an inanimate object that will shrug the impact of mankind off like a loose hair on it's head once we have passed. The impact of the damage we do is to the living.


 

:thumbsup:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Unless you are living in a cave somewhere eating wild nuts and berries, you are part of the problem and as electricians in the construction industry we are leaders of the pact.

Now hopefully we all are trying to minimize our impact, because as I said I'd like to think I do not poo in the section of Earth I occupy. But I am not stupid enough to think I am some high and mighty Oz because I recycle bottles. You live in this society you make an impact.


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## kwired (Dec 20, 2009)

brian john said:


> I'd like to think I do not poo in the section of Earth I occupy.


the section you do poo in is occupied by some other critter. Has always been that way and always will. Some critters depend on what others leave behind. 

Difference between man and others is the fact that others are only interested in survival, man has to have luxuries along the way.


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## Rockyd (Apr 22, 2007)

*To be an intelligent person, and get the most out of something is one thing - to listen to the enviro-whacks is another. Most noisy environmentalists don't give a damn about the environment: all they care about is control. *

Listen to some of what the whack jobs havee said -


We advocate biodiversity for biodiversity’s sake. It may take our extinction to set things straight -- David Foreman, Earth First! 

Phasing out the human race will solve every problem on earth, social and environmental. -- Dave Forman, Founder of Earth First! 
If radical environmentalists were to invent a disease to bring human populations back to sanity, it would probably be something like AIDS -- Earth First! Newsletter 

The collective needs of non-human species must take precedence over the needs and desires of humans. -- Dr. Reed F. Noss, The Wildlands Project (The Wildlands project is part of the U.N.'s agenda).

Every time you turn on an electric light, you are making another brainless baby -- Helen Caldicott, Union of Concerned Scientists 

The continued rapid cooling of the earth since WWII is in accord with the increase in global air pollution associated with industrialization, mechanization, urbanization and exploding population. -- Reid Bryson, "Global Ecology; Readings towards a rational strategy for Man", (1971) 


In ten years all important animal life in the sea will be extinct. Large areas of coastline will have to be evacuated because of the stench of dead fish. -- Paul Ehrlich, Earth Day (1970) 

As far as the environmental movement in America? Mostly whacks - we have the richest country in the world for natural resources, and we're in a recession? Only because we have fools in charge!

Okay, I'll get down off my soap box for now...pushing away from the espresso.....but you know I'm right!


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## Englishsparky (Nov 6, 2010)

I think it's just an excuse for a green tax..


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## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

kaboler said:


> I'm an environmentalist. ...
> 
> I recently ...changed out 8 - 300w incandescent bulbs to some extra 42w CFLs I had around, that are on 24/7! That's 17.5MW a year!!!!!



An environmentalist, OK.:thumbsup:

A mathematician, no.:whistling2:

8 x 300W = 2400W
2400 x 24hrs = 57.6kWh / day
57.6 x 365 days = 21024kWh or 21.024MWh

8 x 42W = 336W
336 x 24hrs = 8.064kWh / day
8.046 x 365 days = 2.943 MWh

21.024 - 2.943 = *18.08MWh of energy savings per year.*

Even if they are getting some sort of good deal at $.05 / kWh, that's over $900 / year savings for what, a $150 investment? I'll take that deal!

I had no idea anyone was still using incandescent lamps that big though! That's a relic of a bygone day. A lot of people have no clue how much energy can be wasted like that. Good on ya for finding and fixing that one!

By the way, why are they on during the day? Are they inside of a windowless room? If not, adding a timer could cut the use by at least another 50% or more!

Incidentally, the average across the US for CO2 emissions per MWh is around 1300lbs. So try to envision 23,400 lbs of carbon not being put into the air. That's about the weight of an empty school bus!


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## doubleoh7 (Dec 5, 2009)

The environmental movement is nothing more than a tool used by the left to gain control over people's lives.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

kwired said:


> the section you do poo in is occupied by some other critter. Has always been that way and always will. Some critters depend on what others leave behind.
> 
> Difference between man and others is the fact that others are only interested in survival, man has to have luxuries along the way.


Yeah, well I like pooing in a warm bathroom, I leave the back 10 for the deer, bear, coyotes, rabbits, raccoons, opossums and the like to do their business. Though many of them poo on my septic field.:whistling2:


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## Frank Mc (Nov 7, 2010)

doubleoh7 said:


> The environmental movement is nothing more than a tool used by the left to gain control over people's lives.


Theres a lot of competition out there ..its going to be a hard slog for them ;-)

Frank


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

doubleoh7 said:


> The environmental movement is nothing more than a tool used by the left to gain control over people's lives.


Actually, it is the last tool that old school socialists and communists have as a means of destroying capitalism, or at least severely restricting it's activities.


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

JRaef said:


> An environmentalist, OK.:thumbsup:
> Even if they are getting some sort of good deal at $.05 / kWh, that's over $900 / year savings for what, a $150 investment? I'll take that deal!


They got a REALLY good deal. I was asked to replace all the CFLs at a church, regardless of if they were working or not. Some were not working. I noticed that they were like... dollar store brand. But the 42w flourescents were namebrand, so I threw em in my service van.

So he got the bulbs for free, and I did it on my own time, for free. So woot for him!


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

You guys are sure running with the "mind control" and "anti-capitalist" thing.

Isn't selling environmentalist stuff a form of the best type of capitalism there is? We're selling the sizzle, not the steak! WOOT FOR US!!!

Maybe you're just looking for an excuse to deal with reality. I chalk up people who think humans can't influence the environment with anti-evolutionists, people who hate the government, etc etc etc.


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

Took 2 hot water tanks and some fixture metal to the scrap metal yard close to the shop. There was also a couple car batteries I told them not to toss because I would take them too. They gave me $16 for the batteries hahaha. That's more than the core charge!


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## SparkYZ (Jan 20, 2010)

kaboler said:


> Big annoying thread:
> 
> I'm an environmentalist. I like to save wattage. For every watt I save, I help save the world (imo) plus the bit of wattage lost to transmission. I don't record what I save while I'm on the company's dime, but I record what I save when I go above and beyond the call of duty.
> 
> ...


Just think of all the energy you wasted by writing this post.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go put on my baby seal skin slippers, throw some styrofoam cups in the forest, and light a tire fire.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

I'll do my part to save the planet by posting this very important logo....


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

We need some global warming here in NY to melt all the snow. I think I'm gonna cut the freon line on my old window units and cut the cat out of my truck.


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## jusme123 (Dec 27, 2010)

Nuff said!!


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## Missouri Bound (Aug 30, 2009)

doubleoh7 said:


> The environmental movement is nothing more than a tool used by the left to gain control over people's lives.


 
You mean at tool used by the "tools" on the left............


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## Jamie (Dec 26, 2010)

solar panels don't do anything for the environment.[/QUOTE]

Can I ask what is wrong with solar panels?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Jamie said:


> solar panels don't do anything for the environment.


Can I ask what is wrong with solar panels?[/QUOTE]

For one they cost me money and I don't own any. 

Can you say subsidies?


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## Missouri Bound (Aug 30, 2009)

The sad truth about solar panels...which has never and WILL never be made public is that it takes more energy to manufacture than it will ever produce in it's lifetime. Unfortunately the government funds the crap out of it so it's a well kept secret. Not unlike the "cash for clunkers" program which rebated consumers $4,000 for their clunker.....at a cost of $15,000 of taxpayer money for each rebate.....great deal, eh?


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## kwired (Dec 20, 2009)

Missouri Bound said:


> The sad truth about solar panels...which has never and WILL never be made public is that it takes more energy to manufacture than it will ever produce in it's lifetime.


So do you know how much energy it takes to make them?

If that is case shouldn't they be expensive enough they will never pay for themselves either. Then again maybe they are.

Not saying you are wrong, just wondering.

It does take energy to ship and install them too.


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## doubleoh7 (Dec 5, 2009)

kaboler said:


> Big annoying thread:
> 
> I'm an environmentalist. I like to save wattage. For every watt I save, I help save the world (imo) plus the bit of wattage lost to transmission. I don't record what I save while I'm on the company's dime, but I record what I save when I go above and beyond the call of duty.
> 
> ...


 
You played soccer when you were a kid didn't you?


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## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

> The sad truth about solar panels...which has never and WILL never be made public is that it takes more energy to manufacture than it will ever produce in it's lifetime.


The sad truth about _*<insert whatever form of energy you wish to discuss>*_ is that it is subsidized in one form or another by everyone who uses it, might ise it, directly or indirectly, and/or pays extra medical bills associated with the pollution it entails, and/or pays for the long term clean up, and/or pays for storage of hazardous materials, and/or blah blah blah.

Subsidies can be many things. By 2016, the Federal tax credit in HR1424 for installing solar power, the most visible "subsidy" that everyone gripes about, will cost us $300 billion dollars before it's done, but will have created at least 440,000 jobs in the US and will have increased our electricity generating capacity by 28 gigawatts. 

By contrast the Iraq war alone has ALREADY cost us over $771 billion and although it can be argued that it created jobs for military suppliers, at what cost to the families of the soldiers? And talk about cost per taxpayer? Divide $771 *b*illion by 138 *m*illion taxpayers in the US, assuming you have a calculator that even holds that many zeros! If you don't, that's *$55 million per taxpayer*!!!! And if you don't think the Iraq war was about oil energy, you are deluded.

Coal, while not costing us in terms of wars, is just plain dirty so it will cost us all in increased medical expenses (just ask China), and the concept of "clean coal" is still a politician's pipe dream at this point. 

Nuclear? One thing the proponents always leave out when they discuss how "cheap" it is compared to anything else is that the indirect cost of 1 single class 1 accident, just one, will double that cost per kW to where it will be the MOST expensive form for generations to come. So like I said, EVERY form of energy we use is going to be subsidized in one way or another.

I love how almost every forum discussion I see about environmental issues keeps getting dragged down into a political swamp of "liberal nuts" vs "freedom loving capitalists". I happen to be an environment loving capitalist! Environmentalism is only a political issue because some people INSIST on making it one. I personally abhor how fiscal conservatism has been co-opted by nationalism that borders on fascism now. In the true spirit of conservitism, we would WANT to conserve what we have so we can have it for longer and it won't cost us so much. Why is that a bad thing?


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## Rockyd (Apr 22, 2007)

> In the true spirit of conservitism, we would WANT to conserve what we have so we can have it for longer and it won't cost us so much. Why is that a bad thing?


Obviously you don't know much about oil. In the Americas, we have MASSIVE deposits from the tip of South America, all the way up the east side of the continent. The Carribean is sitting on top of a pool of oil ( catch the spill rate numbers on the BP accident?). In North America - Texas, Loisiana, New Mexico, Utah, Colorado, Montana, North and South Dakota all have major capacity. Take a look at Canada? Northern BC, Alberta, and the Northewst territories are swimming in oil! Alaska? On the north slope if a well can't crank out a 1000 barrels a day, per well, it's going to get capped.

But wait, those same oil fields in the North extend all the way accross to Russia too.

Saying we don't have much oil is like listening to Al Gore on global warming. Don't buy the snake oil! That is why the extreme rage against the green movement in general. They don't give a damn about the environment, they only care about control! I don't want to pave the planet over, but I do plan on using it intelligently.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Rockyd said:


> But wait, those same oil fields in the North extend all the way accross to Russia too.
> 
> Saying we don't have much oil is like listening to Al Gore on global warming. Don't buy the snake oil! That is why the extreme rage against the green movement in general. They don't give a damn about the environment, they only care about control! I don't want to pave the planet over, but I do plan on using it intelligently.


Yet we scream DO NOT POLLUTE our waters. Then we buy foreign oil transporting in a much more dangerous way than drilling ever would be.


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## Skeletor (Mar 23, 2009)

JRaef said:


> By contrast the Iraq war alone has ALREADY cost us over $771 billion and although it can be argued that it created jobs for military suppliers, at what cost to the families of the soldiers? And talk about cost per taxpayer? Divide $771 *b*illion by 138 *m*illion taxpayers in the US, assuming you have a calculator that even holds that many zeros! If you don't, that's *$55 million per taxpayer*!!!! And if you don't think the Iraq war was about oil energy, you are deluded.


It's not $55 million per taxpayer. $771 billion divided by 138 million taxpayers is *$5586.96*.

Even by canceling the zeros 771,000,000,000/138,000,000 becomes 771,000/138. The answer will clearly not be in the millions. You are off by four decimal places.

It's still a ridiculous amount of money though.


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## kwired (Dec 20, 2009)

Skeletor said:


> It's not $55 million per taxpayer. $771 billion divided by 138 million taxpayers is *$5586.96*.
> 
> Even by canceling the zeros 771,000,000,000/138,000,000 becomes 771,000/138. The answer will clearly not be in the millions. You are off by four decimal places.
> 
> It's still a ridiculous amount of money though.


Thank God. I like many feel taxes are high, but I know I did not pay $55 million.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Sheer tenacity or insanity, you decide.http://blog.algore.com/2011/02/an_answer_for_bill.html


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## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

Skeletor said:


> It's not $55 million per taxpayer. $771 billion divided by 138 million taxpayers is *$5586.96*.
> 
> Even by canceling the zeros 771,000,000,000/138,000,000 becomes 771,000/138. The answer will clearly not be in the millions. You are off by four decimal places.
> 
> It's still a ridiculous amount of money though.


It sucks to get old. I couldn't see the decimal point on the only calculator I had that would accept the numbers.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

kwired said:


> Thank God. I like many feel taxes are high, but I know I did not pay $55 million.


:laughing::laughing:


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Not all solar systems are subsidized, I've been off grid for 16 years and the gov didn't give me a dime for mine. The reason for being off the grid, too far from the last pole.


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## shaker480 (Apr 1, 2009)

*Global warming?*

I have installed these CFL bulbs the ones that have a picture of a polar bear hugging the bulb!! These so called environmentally safe bulbs contain chemicals that would kill the little furry bear. Trace levels of MERCURY in these bulbs are considered HAZARDOUS WASTE. We already have to pay as a contractor to dispose of the bulbs. Do you think the joe homeowner is going to do that?


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## kwired (Dec 20, 2009)

shaker480 said:


> I have installed these CFL bulbs the ones that have a picture of a polar bear hugging the bulb!! These so called environmentally safe bulbs contain chemicals that would kill the little furry bear. Trace levels of MERCURY in these bulbs are considered HAZARDOUS WASTE. We already have to pay as a contractor to dispose of the bulbs. Do you think the joe homeowner is going to do that?


 
I don't know what to believe about the mercury content in CFL's. I have heard that they are a hazard and I have also heard that you will ingest more mercury eating fish than there is in a single CFL lamp.

Does it make sense to collect the lamps and recycle them - maybe.

Does it make sense to evacuate a building because of an exposure hazard because a single lamp has broken (I've heard of that happening) - I don't think so.


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

I can't believe crazies came in here. Maybe I should have started an evolution thread for you all to start screaming creationist stuff too.

Do you guys think that humans can't hurt the earth because God wouldn't let that happen?

As for CFLs and mercury, it's been discussed in the thread. Coal power plants create more hazardous waste than CFLs being tossed. Huge difference.


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

kwired said:


> I don't know what to believe about the mercury content in CFL's. I have heard that they are a hazard and I have also heard that you will ingest more mercury eating fish than there is in a single CFL lamp.
> 
> Does it make sense to collect the lamps and recycle them - maybe.


I bet a guy I worked with (he would have had to suck his own ahem ahem), because i was just guessing that maybe someone named flourescent lamps like this: T12s have 12 mg of mercury, T8s have 8mg, and T5s have 5mg. Turns out, I wasn't off by much. CFLs can't have much at all.

Here in Alberta, our power comes from coal, and even in the usa, coal power plants are by far the #1 source of mercury contamination.

How much mercury was used during the California gold rush? Anyone know? How much was lost?


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

> As the Ban Mercury Working Group reports, “Though cumulatively coal fired power plants are the predominant source of atmospheric mercury emissions, the three largest point sources for mercury emissions in the United States are the three largest gold mines there.” The Great Salt Lake, when tested in 2004, turned out to have astonishingly high mercury levels, as did wild waterways in Idaho, and Nevada’s gold mines seem to be the culprit. The _Reno Gazette-Journal_ reported that year, “The scope of mercury pollution associated with Nevada’s gold mining industry wasn’t discovered until the EPA changed rules in 1998 to add mercury to the list of toxic discharges required to be reported. When the first numbers were released in 2000, Nevada mines reported the release of 13,576 pounds in 1998. Those numbers have since been revised upward to an estimated 21,098 pounds, or more than 10 tons, to make Nevada the nation’s No. 1 source of mercury emissions at the time.” Glen Miller, a professor of natural resources and environmental science at the University of Nevada, Reno, estimates that since 1985, the eighteen major gold mines in the state released between 70 and 200 tons of mercury into the environment.


From some cheez website. Probably true.


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## Missouri Bound (Aug 30, 2009)

kaboler said:


> I bet a guy I worked with (he would have had to suck his own ahem ahem), because i was just guessing that maybe someone named flourescent lamps like this: T12s have 12 mg of mercury, T8s have 8mg, and T5s have 5mg. Turns out, I wasn't off by much. CFLs can't have much at all.
> 
> Here in Alberta, our power comes from coal, and even in the usa, coal power plants are by far the #1 source of mercury contamination.
> 
> How much mercury was used during the California gold rush? Anyone know? How much was lost?


 You do know that the numbers in the description are the size of the tube...right? (diameter)


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

Missouri Bound said:


> You do know that the numbers in the description are the size of the tube...right? (diameter)


Yeah hahahaha, but I was thinking it was a good idea too. Why not both the diameter and the amount of mercury? Why not both?

He was only 2 or 3 mg away from having to suck his own somethingerother.


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## Rockyd (Apr 22, 2007)

kaboler said:


> From some cheez website. Probably true.


Mercury as a gold recovery method is lousy. REAL gold miners use concentraters that spin at high "g" force and can move a lot of gravel through them. My Brother in law used to get 20% of his gold through the use of a concentrater at the end of his small run box (used 3/8" punch plate, and washed about 800 yds of gravel a day). As a matter of fact, the concentrater was a nelson (sp?) out of Vancouver BC. about a thousand dollars an inch for a good sized one...:thumbsup:

All the gold that has Hg stuck to it, is gold that got away!:laughing:

Another thing that is never pointed out, is how much Mercury is naturally occuring, and called pollution?


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

JRaef said:


> The sad truth about _*<insert whatever form of energy you wish to discuss>*_ is that it is subsidized in one form or another by everyone who uses it, might ise it, directly or indirectly, and/or pays extra medical bills associated with the pollution it entails, and/or pays for the long term clean up, and/or pays for storage of hazardous materials, and/or blah blah blah.
> 
> Subsidies can be many things. By 2016, the Federal tax credit in HR1424 for installing solar power, the most visible "subsidy" that everyone gripes about, will cost us $300 billion dollars before it's done, but will have created at least 440,000 jobs in the US and will have increased our electricity generating capacity by 28 gigawatts.
> 
> ...


 fascism that is a label that belongs to your politcal frends on the left.
nationalismSee above
Environmentalism See above

In the true spirit of conservitism, we would WANT to conserve what we have.. Yes that is called freedom....Somthing you guys on the left want to REVOKE!! 



> Nuclear? One thing the proponents always leave out when they discuss how "cheap" it is compared to anything else is that the indirect cost of 1 single class 1 accident, just one, will double that cost per kW to where it will be the MOST expensive form for generations to come. So like I said, EVERY form of energy we use is going to be subsidized in one way or anothe


NUCLEAR..OH the fear the fear the fear..:laughing:


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## Rockyd (Apr 22, 2007)

HARRY304E said:


> NUCLEAR..OH the fear the fear the fear..:laughing:


If the dumba$$ greenies were aware of all the nuke's at sea protecting our national interests (Both Nuke powered vessels, and the weaponery to go boom) they would all melt downinto the watermelons that they are (Watermelons - green on the outside, and commie red on the inside)!!!:thumbsup::thumbup:


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## doubleoh7 (Dec 5, 2009)

I don't believe in the environment.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Rockyd said:


> If the dumba$$ greenies were aware of all the nuke's at sea protecting our national interests (Both Nuke powered vessels, and the weaponery to go boom) they would all melt downinto the watermelons that they are (Watermelons - green on the outside, and commie red on the inside)!!!:thumbsup::thumbup:


 So true...:laughing::laughing:


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

kaboler said:


> I can't believe crazies came in here. Maybe I should have started an evolution thread for you all to start screaming creationist stuff too.
> 
> Do you guys think that humans can't hurt the earth because God wouldn't let that happen?
> 
> As for CFLs and mercury, it's been discussed in the thread. Coal power plants create more hazardous waste than CFLs being tossed. Huge difference.


Let me just straighten you out on one little point there Kabooler. Coal fired plants that are operating in the USA do not so much as let a coke line of pollutants go out of the top of the stack. But the EPA still shuts them down if they are small outfits run locally. The EPA gives waivers over pollutants to GE owned coal fired plants, and they allow GE to fire up new ones, while all the while closing down the competition. The scrubbers eliminate all pollutants and only CO2 and water vapor are left over. Plants breath CO2. It is not a pollutant. A huge difference. CFL's are more polluting than coal fired electrical plants.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

macmikeman said:


> Coal fired plants that are operating in the USA do not so much as let a coke line of pollutants go out of the top of the stack....


Uh... that's ********.

Coal power dumps out the biggest chunk of Sulfur Dioxide emissions in the country. Plus large fractions of mono-nitrogen oxides. Plus significant Carbon Dioxide and Mercury emissions.

That's EVERY SINGLE COAL PLANT. Even the ones with scrubbers.

There has been a relative decrease over the last few decades of many of these pollutants but they are still dumped into the atmosphere in massive quantities.


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## HID_Recycler (Mar 11, 2011)

kaboler said:


> Big annoying thread:
> 
> I'm an environmentalist. I like to save wattage. For every watt I save, I help save the world (imo) plus the bit of wattage lost to transmission. I don't record what I save while I'm on the company's dime, but I record what I save when I go above and beyond the call of duty.
> 
> ...


I actually recycle the metal halide lights you take down. I find it a bit annoying when people just leave them on site and let the business owner try to sell them on craigslist or ebay. Those things need to be de-commissioned to get some wattage off the grid. I understand taking them down and putting some high bay fluorescents in to save energy, but to just try and get them back on the grid by selling them to someone else... Thats like putting your garbage in the neighbors yard. Not to mention, i like the business too


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## doubleoh7 (Dec 5, 2009)

HID_Recycler said:


> I actually recycle the metal halide lights you take down. I find it a bit annoying when people just leave them on site and let the business owner try to sell them on craigslist or ebay. Those things need to be de-commissioned to get some wattage off the grid. I understand taking them down and putting some high bay fluorescents in to save energy, but to just try and get them back on the grid by selling them to someone else... Thats like putting your garbage in the neighbors yard. Not to mention, i like the business too


 
I either want to see them recommissioned or placed in a landfill.


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## Missouri Bound (Aug 30, 2009)

Just a small point to consider.....metal halide are equal and in many cases better in their lumen to wattage ratio than many flourescent tubes, even the highly popular T8's. It's more a matter of lighting design than efficiency which would make a preference to one or the other. Fixture design and usage dictates which should be used where. Both have there purposes in specific situations.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

Shockdoc said:


> Maybe all the used motor oil I pour in a hole will one day be refined.


Why would you do that.. Auto store and walmart takes it back for free. I'm not a greenie but comon. I think CFL's are bull-****. Adopting them is driven by money. We need to be environmentaly concsious but the enviro wackos can (insert your own rude text here).

PS: Making this site PC for the general public sucks.


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## Malaking_TT (Dec 17, 2010)

kaboler said:


> I bet a guy I worked with (he would have had to suck his own ahem ahem), because i was just guessing that maybe someone named flourescent lamps like this: T12s have 12 mg of mercury, T8s have 8mg, and T5s have 5mg. Turns out, I wasn't off by much. CFLs can't have much at all.
> 
> Here in Alberta, our power comes from coal, and even in the usa, coal power plants are by far the #1 source of mercury contamination.
> 
> How much mercury was used during the California gold rush? Anyone know? How much was lost?


T12'a are 12/8 of an inch, T8's are 8/8", and T5's are 5/8" diameter.


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## Malaking_TT (Dec 17, 2010)

kaboler said:


> Big annoying thread:
> 
> I'm an environmentalist. I like to save wattage. For every watt I save, I help save the world (imo) plus the bit of wattage lost to transmission. I don't record what I save while I'm on the company's dime, but I record what I save when I go above and beyond the call of duty.
> 
> ...


At the end of the last job we threw away probably $20k worth of perfectly good and new material.


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## SparkyinMontan (Sep 16, 2011)

JRaef said:


> By contrast the Iraq war alone has ALREADY cost us over $771 billion and although it can be argued that it created jobs for military suppliers, at what cost to the families of the soldiers? And talk about cost per taxpayer? Divide $771 *b*illion by 138 *m*illion taxpayers in the US, assuming you have a calculator that even holds that many zeros! If you don't, that's *$55 million per taxpayer*!!!! And if you don't think the Iraq war was about oil energy, you are deluded.


Sorry Jraef, but your math is WAY off. It's not $55 million dollars per tax payer, it's $5,586.95 per taxpayer. My calculator does hold that many zeros. 

I'm not going to get into the politics of this, just want to correct the math (although, probably, more than one person has corrected this already).

Aaron

PS, sorry for resurrecting this thread, but it just bothered me...:wallbash:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Nice trip down troll lane. :laughing:


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

Yep it's good stuff.


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