# Should home inspectors look for bootleg grounds?



## telsa (May 22, 2015)

NJMike said:


> Hello all,
> 
> Do you guys think it would be worthwhile for a home inspector to use something like an Ideal Sure-Test, instead of a regular cheap 3 light tester, so as to detect bootleg grounds? How common do you find that issue to come up?
> 
> ...


You're kidding....

A HI 'tooling up."

Give me a break.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Those testers give you a lot of information, more than you'll likely ever use, more than I need to know most times. The Ideal one I have will catch bootleg grounds, but be fooled at the panel because its so close to the neutral bond. Be careful what info you use to put to paper. I haven't tried the other brands yet.


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

Try a conversation something like this:

Egon: Don’t cross the streams.
Peter: Why?
Egon: It would be bad.
Peter: I’m fuzzy on the whole good/bad thing. What do you mean “bad”?
Egon: Try to imagine all life as you know it stopping instantaneously and every molecule in your body exploding at the speed of light.
Raymond: Total protonic reversal.
Peter: That’s bad. Okay. Alright, important safety tip, thanks Egon.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Most testers '_lie_' , there is no all round magic one that illicits an _exclusive_ N and G

If you really want to defeat the possibility of all bootlegs, de-energize and lift the MBJ , or otherwise separate your neutrals from your grounding, GEC's etc & use _simple _continuity to assess 

~CS~


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> Most testers '_lie_' , there is no all round magic one that illicits an _exclusive_ N and G
> 
> If you really want to defeat the possibility of all bootlegs, de-energize and lift the MBJ , or otherwise separate your neutrals from your grounding, GEC's etc & use _simple _continuity to assess
> 
> ~CS~


Won't a GFCI tester work?


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

I don't believe so Flyboy

Iirc, we had a rather knowledgeable poster blow through and explain the details here a while ago, wish i could find the particular post, it was a real jem

~CS~


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

NJMike said:


> Do you guys think it would be worthwhile for a home inspector to use something like an Ideal Sure-Test, instead of a regular cheap 3 light tester, so as to detect bootleg grounds? How common do you find that issue to come up?


It comes up all the time; people do it all the time. 

It hides a problem that is very expensive to correct properly, and can expose equipment to damage, and possibly affect safety. 

It will be very very likely to be found in the future at some point, and there will be absolutely no question that you missed it. 

Since it comes up all the time, to me it's a bit of a stretch to explain later that you missed something so easy. 

If it isn't a relatively new home, I'd pull a couple covers to spot check in case the tester is missing it. Take pictures. 

BUT in reality most HI are just rubber stampers, really serving the realtors, not the buyer, and just want to walk through and collect their fee. So I'd probably be a miserable failure as a HI, don't go by me.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

I'd need to start drinking by 9am to be an HI.....~C:thumbup:S~


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

splatz said:


> BUT in reality most HI are just rubber stampers, really serving the realtors, not the buyer, and just want to walk through and collect their fee. *So I'd probably be a miserable failure as a HI, don't go by me*.


Yeah, me too! Realtors, GC's, developers, contractors, house flippers, all hacks, et al would all hate me. 

I'd be the HI advocate for the unsuspecting owner/buyer. Especially the young first time buyer. 

The protector of all those who've never held a tool in their hand. An expert witness against all those evil hacks and salespeople that have done them wrong.

They'd write songs and poems about me and erect a statue in my honor.

I'd wear a tight fitting spandex suit with a cape and a big SI (super inspector) on the front.


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## NJMike (Dec 11, 2016)

Splatz, you identify exactly the sticky issue with the HI business. Your first loyalty is supposed to be to the client but you've got a realtor looking over your shoulder who may or may not have the right priorities. 

If I'm walking into an older home that has probably been renovated 8 times since it was built in 1906, I'm thinking anything that might give me an excuse to insist that they bring in a licensed electrician to do a more detailed inspection is a good thing. That's one reason I'm looking at this. I can't quite get away with just ordering an electrical inspection automatically, so detecting bootleg grounds, high resistance circuits, etc., has a better chance of giving me the excuse to do it than the cheap 3-light job. Those things will read a bootleg ground as "everything is hunky-dory."


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

But where to_ start _Mike?

Here's something you _may_ be interested in>>>










~CS~


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

flyboy said:


> They'd write songs and poems about me and erect a statue in my honor.
> .


*It ain't no use to sit and wonder why, babe
It don't matter, anyhow
And it ain't no use to sit and wonder why, babe
If you don't know by now
When your wires glow and the breakers trip
Look out your window and I'll be gone
You're the reason I give the man the slip
Don't think twice, it's all right.

It ain't no use in turning on your light, babe
That light I never wired
And it ain't no use in trying to make right, babe
nuthin' you say will get me fired
But I wish there was somethin' you would do or say
Maybe more dead presidents could come my way
We never do too much invoicing anyway
So don't think twice, it's all right.

It ain't no use in calling out my name, gal
Like you never done before
It ain't no use in calling out my name, gal
I can't hear you any more
I'll just slam my trunk , head on down the road
Them relators look away for a fifty I'm told
They slipped me what i want, now the job is sold
Don't think twice, it's all right.*
:no::no::no::no:
~C(w/apologies to Dylan & Flyboy)S~


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

flyboy said:


> Yeah, me too! Realtors, GC's, developers, contractors, house flippers, all hacks, et al would all hate me.
> 
> I'd be the HI advocate for the unsuspecting owner/buyer. Especially the young first time buyer.
> 
> ...


Didn't you get the message? You don't need a cape to be a hero. But I like what you said about the erect thing.


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## PlugsAndLights (Jan 19, 2016)

OK, a few things come to mind:
1) I have a better view of HI's than many here. I've only dealt with a couple 
but they did a good job. I've also seen a few of @NJMike 's posts now and 
give him credit as he appears to want to learn and do what he can for his 
clients. 
2a) Yes, it'd be best if a HI were to identify bootleg gnds. Unfortunately, I 
don't have any experience with the tool mentioned in the op. 
2b) I'd start by checking that all the cables entering the panel include a 
ground. If they do not include a ground but all the receptacles show as
grounded, it's time to look closer. Unfortunately, the homeruns could be 
updated to grounded without all the cct being so. 
3) Reading another thread might help the op to explain the issues with a 
bootleg gnd. Post #9 gets to the heart of it, in my not so humble opinion-). 
http://www.electriciantalk.com/f2/separate-grounds-fix-older-homes-192218/

As an aside, it'd be more accurate if we replaced the word ground with the 
word bond every above. 
P&L


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## NJMike (Dec 11, 2016)

Thanks for that detailed checklist. I'm looking around for "enhancements" like that to the standard HI checklists. I'll get as close to the Super Inspector model as I can get away with, although I suspect the cape and spandex might make it too obvious 

Yes, because this is a cheap way around rewiring a circuit that lacks a grounding conductor, I expect that it would come up fairly commonly. Again, that's a good thing for me, priority one in an old building will be finding airtight reasons to have them call in an electrician. I don't see how a realtor can argue with something like this.

As for disassembling the main panel and checking via continuity: Yeah, that's exactly the sort of thing I can't possibly do and that's why I'm looking for more excuses to tell them to get an electrician in. 

Safety issues get the most immediate attention from home buyers. What is the safety issue that these bootleg grounds cause? Can things connected to the grounding system become energized? That's what it seems like might happen but I want to make sure.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

I was surprised to find that there are almost ZERO decent home inspectors out there. There are FAR better inspectors available for commercial properties. 

In a market where most of the homes are newer and were subjected to stiff inspections when they were built, it might be a tougher nut to crack. In a market where there are a lot of older homes and less rigorous code enforcement, I have to believe there's a market for homeowners that want a quality inspection. You just aren't going to get there via realtors, they just want the transaction to go through with as little work as possible. You'd have to find a way to reach your market.


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## NJMike (Dec 11, 2016)

Yes, commercial properties are another level altogether. It looks like most guys going into that collect some years of experience in residential home inspections first. As far as the realtors doing all the referrals....yeah, that produces an awkward situation. I've seen some inspectors doing direct marketing and advertisement but it's tough, generally people hire home inspectors only a few times in their entire lives. Maybe with the rise of contractor referral websites (homeadvisor, ones like that) people will start to hire inspectors on their own and the market will change. Meanwhile, I'm just hoping to collect a group of realtors that will tolerate (or even prefer) a thorough home inspector. We'll see.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Commercial properties can be worse than homes. The remodel thing can be ugly with whole walls worth of wiring thrown up in the ceiling among other things.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

Bumped into this one today:


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

Going_Commando said:


> Bumped into this one today:


That's the nicest made jumper I've ever seen 

Nice to see guys have pride in their hacks :thumbsup:


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

nice


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

NJMike said:


> Safety issues get the most immediate attention from home buyers. What is the safety issue that these bootleg grounds cause? Can things connected to the grounding system become energized? That's what it seems like might happen but I want to make sure.



The_ reversed polarity_ bootlegs Mike

Some of the older BX , K&T , or combination of the two are mighty hard to visually discern conductors....i.e.> N & H 

When the shell of BX becomes energized , it may not always trip an OCDP, often it'll turn into a toaster cord.....~CS~:no:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

But that's allowed here, Steve. Pretty much any house you walk into will have BX (without the bonding strip) with 3 prong receptacles on it (and no GFCI protection).

To homeowners, handymen, and inspectors it still appears to be grounded, although we know it's not code compliant.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

BX was never _intended_ as an EGC , because it predates it Hax

Yes it's _used_ as one, but it's a poor one because that outer wound shell is 5-6X's the length of the inner conductors.

Next you'll ask where in the NEC EGC's addresses VD , it doesn't _really_ get specific , other than dictating EGC's upgraded in a derate along with the others 

FWIW, the issue is burns holes in ascii regularly one could throw an HI through.....:thumbup:~CS~:thumbup:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Yeah, I agree with you. I've seen pictures of it glowing red hot during a simulated ground fault.

But try explaining that to customers, how every receptacle in their house is wired wrong :laughing:

Hell, I even had EC's who think I am crazy when I tell them that. They are just so used to seeing it and the inspectors don't say anything.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Here's where those dual function breakers are a good fit.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

nrp3 said:


> Here's where those dual function breakers are a good fit.




You mean AFCI and GFCI?


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Yeah, i've been using a lot of them to meet code with older wiring extentions....~CS~


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Leave all the receptacles the way they are and put in a dual function, yes to both. At least its kosher and makes the problem with the metal sheath less of an issue. Some of this may vary with local amendments, maybe you don't need the AFCI with receptacle replacement. We do.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

_*DF*....slices.....dices...makes julian fries.....order now and get a free set of ginsu knives_...~C:jester:S~


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I wouldn't dare try to AFCI an old circuit like this without a troubleshooting fee clause :no:


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

The GE one's don't trip..... Mac was right.... (don't tell him i said so) ~CS~


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

They seem to be working better of late. About the time the Dual functions came on the scene. The way I see it, you can rewire or install new receptacles and a dual function breaker, can't guarantee it'll work, but you give them the option. Maybe all our bitching didn't fall on deaf ears.


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## brodgers (Aug 5, 2007)

Interesting video I found a fews ago about the bootleg ground issue:


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

plug in testers....about as useful as a chicken with a kickstand...~CS~:laughing:


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

flyboy said:


> Safety issues get the most immediate attention from home buyers. What is the safety issue that these bootleg grounds cause? Can things connected to the grounding system become energized? That's what it seems like might happen but I want to make sure.


This question is harder than it looks. For homeowner purposes, with that bootleg ground, touching the screws on your washing machine with three prong plug is just like touching the neutral wire. If there's old BX in the walls anywhere, it could start a fire. 

Hack says how do you explain that to a homeowner the whole house is wrong? I'd tell them their skepticism is understandable, but everything works until it doesn't; not everything that's wrong breaks immediately. Encourage them to get a second opinion from google, assure them they'll find plenty or material. 

There is debate about how hazardous that really is but I think most would agree, if you have a bootleg ground, and you touch a screw or exposed metal on the washing machine while it's on, and a pipe or valve at the same time, you could get a zap.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

nrp3 said:


> Leave all the receptacles the way they are and put in a dual function, yes to both. At least its kosher and makes the problem with the metal sheath less of an issue. Some of this may vary with local amendments, maybe you don't need the AFCI with receptacle replacement. We do.


Since when do we need afcis for receptacle replacement?


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## NJMike (Dec 11, 2016)

Going commando: Nice pic! Just so happens you run into one while the thread is going....well they must be pretty common! I'd better get more cynical fast, before talking to you guys I would have expected such things to be rare.
Brodgers: Yes, that's one of the videos I saw. I suppose it's pretty effective advertising since I'm pretty well convinced to buy one of these now.

So, these bootlegs potentially turn everything connected to the grounding system - appliance chassis, plumbing fixtures - into gigantic neutral conductors. So it's a shock hazard and can also wreak havoc on delicate electronics? Similar hazard to bonding neutral and ground bars in a sub panel? I think I can go with that to explain to clients. They just need to understand to call an electrician and if they want to ballpark the cost before buying the house they'd better call one pronto. 

And then the other take away: If a bootleg is detected very close to the panel it's suspicious, better to test outlets further away or remove covers and confirm visually. (Bearing in mind, I don't need airtight proof, just enough suspicion to recommend they get an electrician because better safe than sorry). 

Thanks all!


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> The GE one's don't trip..... Mac was right.... (don't tell him i said so) ~CS~


I've seen them fail, but not trip. I even accidentally dead shorted the hot and the neutral on a circuit powered by an arc fault and it was arcing away, with sparks flying everywhere, and that thing couldn't care any less. GE must be the new FPE. :laughing:


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## zac (May 11, 2009)

brodgers said:


> Interesting video I found a fews ago about the bootleg ground issue:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfAPkJVYUpY


I need to get a jacket that Mike has on in that video. I could instantly charge 10 more per hour!

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

NJMike said:


> And then the other take away: If a bootleg is detected very close to the panel it's suspicious, better to test outlets further away or remove covers and confirm visually.


I think the amprobe works by detecting the impedance of the ground wire to the neutral. In a short run near the panel, the bootleg jumper is not that much different in length and impedance than a proper EGC. In a longer run, the difference will be clear. 

WRT electronics - most surge protection devices, including some internal to devices, but also most surge strips etc., rely on a proper ground to function fully.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Ok, let me dig out the book (2014) because we don't go to the 17 until 18. 406.4(D)(4)


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

_ahhhhh_, you would go there nrp3......

ok here it is in it's glorious entirety....>



> (4) Arc-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection. Where a
> receptacle outlet is supplied by a branch circuit that re-
> quires arc-fault circuit-interrupter protection as specified
> elsewhere in this Code, a replacement receptacle at this
> ...


~CS~


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Thank you. Caused some grief along the way, but dual function receptacles are good for kitchens where the panels are the typical no AFCI option, also if you have 208v, no go on the two pole AFCI in multiwire kitchen circuits. Some of the housing I deal with had some challenges to deal with. Having some AFCI receptacles and some dual function stuff solves the issue. Accessibility might possibly be an issue, but its the best I can do. Panels are in closets too in most cases.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

Dang. Guess this is the first rework I've done since the 2014 code kicked in. I was going to pop GFI breakers on those circuits since I replaced the receptacles and it isn't grounded romex, but I guess I'll have to dual function them instead. $$$


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

So the 2017 code requires a replacement receptacle to be AFCI protected???


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

14' Hax

~CS~


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I gotta look into this. I wonder if we have an amendment.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

I just failed a couple of jobs because he said my replaced outlet needed to be afci.


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

dont have the book here, but i think it says 'extended or modified' circuits, not just replacing an outlet.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

6' or more and you have to afci it......that's based off of my memory.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Hey look, another reason not to pull permits.


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