# Why Go IBEW?



## ibuzzard (Dec 28, 2008)

No, but thanks for asking.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Screamindrag said:


> Hey all you union guys, drop a few sentences and tell me what the Union means to you..... Why do you choose to be in the Union? Is it the pay? Camaraderie? legacy? I am a third generation electrician with both my father and grandfather belonging to Local 613 here in Atlanta, however, I choose to operate my business independently and not join 613... for my own reasons. I would like to hear from some of you. Thanks guys!


Welcome to the forum you will fit right in here....:thumbup::thumbup:


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

I get paid more than non-union guys in my area.

Couldn't give half a s**t about camaraderie or legacy. I do, however, support union principles in general, so that counts too.


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## jbfan (Jan 22, 2007)

Welcome from Newnan!


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Screamindrag said:


> Hey all you union guys, drop a few sentences and tell me what the Union means to you..... Why do you choose to be in the Union? Is it the pay? Camaraderie? legacy? I am a third generation electrician with both my father and grandfather belonging to Local 613 here in Atlanta, however, I choose to operate my business independently and not join 613... for my own reasons. I would like to hear from some of you. Thanks guys!


Your business isn't doing too well, is it?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

erics37 said:


> I get paid more than non-union guys in my area.
> 
> Couldn't give half a s**t about camaraderie or legacy. I do, however, support union principles in general, so that counts too.


I do believe a local is only as strong as it's members, attending meeting and being involved can minimize some of the old boy network and hopefully young blood can make some of the changes needed.

I use to attend our meetings, but they seemed to be the same guys week after week and 90% were serious boozers half into the wind before the start of the meeting, nothing worse than a drunk with a microphone


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## chris856 (Jun 12, 2009)

Pension
Medical
Education
Better Wages


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## Screamindrag (Mar 15, 2012)

wow RIVETER... what a leap you made. To the rest of you, thanks for answering the question. I really like hearing others' thoughts.


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## chris856 (Jun 12, 2009)

brian john said:


> I do believe a local is only as strong as it's members, attending meeting and being involved can minimize some of the old boy network and hopefully young blood can make some of the changes needed.
> 
> I use to attend our meetings, but they seemed to be the same guys week after week and 90% were serious boozers half into the wind before the start of the meeting, nothing worse than a drunk with a microphone


 Our local started a deal where new members get get their working dues refunded for every month they attend a general meeting. 100% first year, 1/2 2nd year and 1/3 3rd year. Pretty damn good idea if you ask me.


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

chris856 said:


> Pension
> Medical
> Education
> Better Wages


Not in all areas.

Are you positive that pension will be there when you need it?

Some members in LA are paying over $16k in medical. 

I'm not sure the training is the best anymore. I've met some real sharp guys who went through ABC or WECA apprenticeships.

Higher wages mean nothing if a ton of guys are on the bench. A good amount of PW work is going nonunion also.


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## chris856 (Jun 12, 2009)

knowshorts said:


> Not in all areas.
> 
> Are you positive that pension will be there when you need it?
> 
> ...


1. I don't know what it will be like when I retire, but I know the guys that are retiring now are doing just fine. I admit I should do more to inform myself as to how it will work out in 25 years.

2. I don't pay a dime for the coverage and the deductables are minimal.

3. I've been on both sides and went to CITC for almost 3 years, while there code curriculum was good, they don't compare with the facilities and and the overall curriculum of what I am doing now, not to mention all the other classes that are available for free if I wish to take advantage of them. 

4. The book. Yeah, can't argue much there, I'm terrified of it. I wish our local had some sort of SOJ, but the old timers fight it. That being said, times are tough on both sides over here. I worked with Journeymen who took HUGE paycuts just so they could keep working when I was non-union. That is if they were lucky enough to get a job to begin with.


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## Hippie (May 12, 2011)

brian john said:


> I do believe a local is only as strong as it's members, attending meeting and being involved can minimize some of the old boy network and hopefully young blood can make some of the changes needed.
> 
> I use to attend our meetings, but they seemed to be the same guys week after week and 90% were serious boozers half into the wind before the start of the meeting, nothing worse than a drunk with a microphone


That's how it was the couple times I went to meetings unfortunately... And people wonder why the local went down the drain. 

I believe in unions and I would love to see things back like they used to be but at this point in time, at least in this area, the ibew is a disadvantage to both labor and management


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

nothing sader than victims of their own volition lumbering toward perdition....~CS~


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## ibuzzard (Dec 28, 2008)

chicken steve said:


> nothing sader than victims of their own volition lumbering toward perdition....~CS~


There is at least one thing "sadder" - an idiot that fancies himself an intellectual and a wordsmith, but who is actually neither.

Construction has always been cyclical.Stay in the IBEW, but have a back-up plan for additional income.Good advice for non-union electricians, as well.

The training was,and is much superior to the non-union supposed equivalent.The pension plans for the non-union are non-existent, only 401ks'.Work is going crazy out here, coming soon to a local near you.Or get your asses out here.


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## Wireman191 (Aug 28, 2011)

If you decide to go Union try to get into a littler shop. Been on the big jobs where there were 360+ electrician's, Man there was a ton of ******** cry baby stuff going on. 
In the little shops I imagine its just the same as working non union, Just go to work, get paid.
The biggest benefit in the Union would have to be the contract you work under, Everything is spelled out for you so you know what is expected of you, and your employer.
Downside, Unemployment. (You will draw Max bennies on UE:thumbup Now there are a lot of member's that have stayed working full time in this economy, I was not one of them, I think I had around 2 months off last year, One moth so far this year.


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## retiredsparktech (Mar 8, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> nothing sader than victims of their own volition lumbering toward perdition....~CS~


 Perdition: Lucky thing I have my dictionary handy. It's not a word you hear everday, like awsome.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

I try to explain that in the union

*GENERALLY*

Better PAY
Better BENEFITS
Better RETIREMENT

And if you are in an area with strong union (lots of union EC's), all this is portable from one EC to the next following you from Apprenticeship to the last day of work.


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## Screamindrag (Mar 15, 2012)

I went through a 4 year apprenticeship through the IEC here in Atlanta and was satisfied with the curriculum... went on and passed the unrestricted exam, first try, a few months after completing my non-union apprenticeship. Unions are not the only way to go. If you want to start your own business or go to work in the electrical field, you can be successful and independent. I agree that it sounds nice to have better pay, benefits etc... However, many union guys seems to go through a ton of sh$t trying to stay busy and have their voices heard. Additionally, the cost to use union EC's can be ridiculous for the consumer.


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## NacBooster29 (Oct 25, 2010)

The thing about having a "pension" is that is relying a lot on new members paying in, to pay out to the retired members. I may be mis informed, but it seems to me to be a legal pyramid scheme. With dwindling funds into the system the funds available will dwindle also. I personally think the best way to plan for retirement is to diversify play the 401k game, and stick what you can in a roth acct. Now granted I'm no financial wiz. 
The evidence to my beliefs are shown everyday, with municipal employees, the towns cannot afford to payout on their pensions, and pay their replacement workers.
Just my 2 cents


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

knowshorts said:


> Are you positive that pension will be there when you need it?





NacBooster29 said:


> The thing about having a "pension" is that is relying a lot on new members paying in, to pay out to the retired members. I may be mis informed, but it seems to me to be a legal pyramid scheme. With dwindling funds into the system the funds available will dwindle also. I personally think the best way to plan for retirement is to diversify play the 401k game, and stick what you can in a roth acct. Now granted I'm no financial wiz.
> The evidence to my beliefs are shown everyday, with municipal employees, the towns cannot afford to payout on their pensions, and pay their replacement workers.
> Just my 2 cents


That's what I was getting at.



knowshorts said:


> Some members in LA are paying over $16k in medical.





chris856 said:


> 2. I don't pay a dime for the coverage and the deductables are minimal.


Then you are the rare one. I have never heard of a member getting free medical. Every local I have ever heard of has the members pay for their own medical. 

Now, before any of you get all up in arms and think I am crazy, answer me this? Do you not vote on where YOUR money goes? Do you not vote to throw some money on the check, put some in your pension, and put some into your medical benefits? If you allocated YOUR negotiated wages into paying for medical insurance instead of on the check, then you are indeed paying for medical insurance. You might not be writing the check, but you are paying.

It's similar on the other side of the fence also. Not just for electricians, but for all industries. If the "value" to a company of an administrative assistant is $25 per hour and they offer medical insurance that costs $3 per hour, her base pay is going to be $22.

Nothing in life is free.


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## ibuzzard (Dec 28, 2008)

NacBooster29 said:


> The thing about having a "pension" is that is relying a lot on new members paying in, to pay out to the retired members. I may be mis informed, but it seems to me to be a legal pyramid scheme. With dwindling funds into the system the funds available will dwindle also. I personally think the best way to plan for retirement is to diversify play the 401k game, and stick what you can in a roth acct. Now granted I'm no financial wiz.
> The evidence to my beliefs are shown everyday, with municipal employees, the towns cannot afford to payout on their pensions, and pay their replacement workers.
> Just my 2 cents


You are misinformed as to how a defined benefit pension plan functions.Not at all a pyramid scheme.It is a contribution, per-hour, made on behalf of the employee by the employer.That's one part of it.

The second part of our plan is based on your years and months of service.

In addition, you may elect to have an additional amount per hour deducted,up to an amount that is legally defined.This really helps your fund grow quickly,reducing current tax obligations, while reducing but little your take-home pay.

Your confusion about public vs private pensions is common.There is actually no comparison between the performance of a good defined benefit plan vs. a 401k.

My brother,who retired from the IBEW at age 58 in 2008, with 35 years of service, has an income nearly equal to a JW's take-home ,assuming a 50 week work year.That is close to 70K per year.

You show me any non-union 401k plan that compares, I'll kiss your ass.

This does not include other investments,or his S.S.,which he will begin collecting at age 65.

Go ahead and delude yourselves into believing that you'll have it better, in your old-age, by staying non-union for your career.It is highly doubtful that you as a worker-bee,will have the "Golden Years" experience you had dreamed of.


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## NacBooster29 (Oct 25, 2010)

Well Mr buzzard, I appreciate you clearing that up for me. But I'm not disagreeing, ill end up working until I die that's life. But your well defined pension plan explanation doesn't clear up where the funding comes from. It sounds great though. Everyone seems to have this false impression that your money can magically grow, that's awesome when you find this money tree let me know.


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## ibuzzard (Dec 28, 2008)

Where the money comes from is simple:The Customer.

An amount, part of the rate that the Contractor charges the Customer, is paid by the Contractor for each hour worked by the Employee into each employees personal fund.

No smoke and mirrors, no pyramid schemes, no magic.

If the contractor is profitable, he earns his share while contributing to the future well being of the employee whose blood, sweat and tears helps make him profitable - hopefully.

It's the duty of each Employee to see that his Employer is given the best of his efforts, "8 for 8", a fairs days work for a fair days pay.And since it is in the employees' best interest to do so, most do.That is ultimately the judgement of the Employer, though.

I would not consider doing the body-destroying,exhausting type of work we do,without the hope of a secure financial future.That is,as secure as we can expect to have.

There are,of course, no guarantees in life.Still, I prefer my odds under an Employer/Employee negotiated contract rather than the alternative.

i


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## chris856 (Jun 12, 2009)

knowshorts said:


> That's what I was getting at.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


We must have it pretty good here. We have a about 60% of the market share and the unemployment rate is actually higher on the non-union side here.

When times were good the average non-union wage was about $32 an hour. One of the bigger non-union contractors is now paying their Journeymen $25 an hour and paying 4th year apprentices no more than $18. I don't know what their benefits are but I could tell you for about 3 of the years I was non-union I didn't even get benefits and I never made more than $14.

In the Union:
Starting wage for a 1st year is 18.36(I started at 22.43 due to previous hours) with full bennies.
JW scale is
40.79 wages
7.20 medical
1.22 NEBF
1.75 Annuity
6.18 Local Pension

Yes, when we sign a new contract we do get to decide where the money goes and just last wednesday we had an item by item breakdown of where our money gets spent.

For me it was a no brainer to join. As far as I'm concerned you either have to start your own business or join the union if you want something to show for all you work at the end of the day. A few months ago I talked to one of my non-union buddies who has stayed with the same company for 4 years and he says he wants to get out of the trade because he doesn't make enough money to support his wife and kid.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

I have a (now former) coworker who believes that society would be much better off if everyone received a big lump sum of money when they turn 18. Sort of like a lump sum retirement payment, but in your prime of life. Most people will blow through it within a few years, at which point they get a job and work until they die.

I kind of like that idea. Eliminates the need to take care of the elderly, and allows everyone to enjoy screwing around at the age that most people screw around the most.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

*



Why Go IBEW? 

Click to expand...



* 
because their seed is so highly developed they can sit on the right hand side of God.....~CS~


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## jbfan (Jan 22, 2007)

I'm not saying a union is better or worse to work for, and this site only list union pension's, but it no different than SS.

Payouts are only as good as the investments made, and future contributions.

http://www.dol.gov/ebsa/criticalstatusnotices.html


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## jimmy21 (Mar 31, 2012)

I know you said a sentence or two, i apologize i wrote a short novel

I am a union member. I have been since i started the trade. I have also had experience with 2 open shops. Union guys, don't flame me. I had signed permission from both our organizer and business manager to work these jobs. Times in my are were very tough for union wireman, just the same as times were very tough for non union wireman. In fact time are still tough for everyone. Im working out of town now.

Open shop number 1 was a low voltage company doing security systems. I knew i would be taking a drastic pay cut, but i was getting desperate. My unemployment was getting ready to run out. My union inside wage was $31.xx + substantial benefits. Union Low voltage was something like $25 + benefits They offered me $14 with no benefits, but told me i would get large raises quickly if i performed well. I made their guys look like a joke, which they were. They were the worst trained men i have ever worked around, Im surprised their installations worked for more than a day or two. Their installations always had problems. While the told the customer it was something else, the problem always stemmed from poor installation. I completely ran circles around their guys and got to show them what an installation should look and function like. The owner charged something like $90/hour. A good percentage more than union shops, but she said she couldn't give me a raise because she couldn't afford it. Ive heard she pays herself in the ballpark of $500,000 a year. That shop was just a bad joke.

Then while working for the low voltage shop, a large job came to town. IT was heartbreaking that it went to an out of state non union contractor. The business manager gave permission to 3 union members to go salt it. Union wages were 31.xx + benefits and non union guys said $30 with no benefits was pretty standard. The out of state contractor was paying $21. They couldn't man the job with the low wages, so we were working 7 12's and they refuse to let us take breaks other than an unpaid lunch. We told them this was illegal, they said they don't care that we can quit if we didn't like it. The superintendents were very cut throat. They all made a $100,000 to $200,000 to crack a whip. Poorly ran, poorly built job, with no regards for state laws or licensing. 3/4 of the electricians were unlicensed. They kept the licensed workers together to keep anyone from seeing anything. The union brought a complaint to the state about unlicensed work, but the case fell apart.


While those two shops probably aren't a general consensus of all non union shops. Those are MY two experiences. The higher ups made money hand over fist while the workers got poverty level wages and no benefits. Their training was a joke their quality of work suffered from it

While i have my own gripes about the union, i get paid well, i have good benefits and i will retire with a large pension. I also get treated good and the contractors don't try to deviate too far from the contract or state laws.


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## frankwell (Mar 22, 2012)

Screamindrag said:


> Hey all you union guys, drop a few sentences and tell me what the Union means to you..... Why do you choose to be in the Union? Is it the pay? Camaraderie? legacy? I am a third generation electrician with both my father and grandfather belonging to Local 613 here in Atlanta, however, I choose to operate my business independently and not join 613... for my own reasons. I would like to hear from some of you. Thanks guys!


The NJATC apprenticeship program is the envy of almost all trades.
The cooperation between the IBEW and the the contractors NECA is also a model of trust and forward thinking.
I thank the Local 26 JATC for accepting me into their program (topped out '83) and would encourage any young individual to enter the best working industry of modern times!


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

chris856 said:


> Our local started a deal where new members get get their working dues refunded for every month they attend a general meeting. 100% first year, 1/2 2nd year and 1/3 3rd year. Pretty damn good idea if you ask me.


I think union meetings are as important as going to work every day. Why anyone would skip meetings is beyond comprehension. jeez. Its your livelihood and you would ignore it?



Screamindrag said:


> I went through a 4 year apprenticeship through the IEC here in Atlanta and was satisfied with the curriculum... went on and passed the unrestricted exam, first try, a few months after completing my non-union apprenticeship. Unions are not the only way to go. If you want to start your own business or go to work in the electrical field, you can be successful and independent. I agree that it sounds nice to have better pay, benefits etc... However, many union guys seems to go through a ton of sh$t trying to stay busy and have their voices heard. Additionally, the cost to use union EC's can be ridiculous for the consumer.


Why did you start this thread. You have made up your mind already. Two pages of discussion for a question you already had all the answers to. I would have closed this stupid thread. Because it's apparent all you wanted to see was a battle between sides.



jimmy21 said:


> I know you said a sentence or two, i apologize i wrote a short novel
> 
> I am a union member. I have been since i started the trade. I have also had experience with 2 open shops. Union guys, don't flame me. I had signed permission from both our organizer and business manager to work these jobs. Times in my are were very tough for union wireman, just the same as times were very tough for non union wireman. In fact time are still tough for everyone. Im working out of town now.
> 
> ...


I also have worked for both. I was fortunate to work union when it meant something. In the early 1980's.
My posts and responses are like yours. Derived from both sides of the isle. I have worked for some great non-union companies. But they were not contractors. I spent most of my whole career in manufacturing. While I only spent a small amount of time on a construction site in the union. The union hands down was the better to work for. I liked the work and the people. I liked the pay most of all.


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