# greivances



## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

cl219um said:


> how bad can it get?


Well you are talking about an area controlled by big money anti union folks so it can get bad.

First thing you can do is learn how to communicate. No one will ever care about your plight when you sound like a toothless idiot. People are prejudiced, they only listen to well spoken neat folk and the ridicule everyone else regardless of the message.

Your BA is the final arbiter of what is/is not allowed in your local so there is really not much you can do but to contact the IBEW district office. When/if you do so, spend the time to write your complaint.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

If there is one thing union members excel at it is complaining. :laughing:

On my call on Monday working with POCO guys there were ready to go to blows over which group got to babysit a generator. (OT for sitting in a truck)

Overhead crew vs some other crew. I found it pretty funny.


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## JohnR (Apr 12, 2010)

BBQ said:


> If there is one thing union members excel at it is complaining. :laughing:
> 
> On my call on Monday working with POCO guys there were ready to go to blows over which group got to babysit a generator. (OT for sitting in a truck)
> 
> Overhead crew vs some other crew. I found it pretty funny.


You even understood what he was asking??? I find that amazing.:notworthy::notworthy:


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## Spunk#7 (Nov 30, 2012)

The wink-wink society in action!


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

BBQ said:


> I found it pretty funny.



POCO guys are ****ing hilarious. My favorite are the facility maintenance division guys that get all upset if they have to do a job that isn't in their job description. That's how you tell the ones that started union from the ones that worked maintenance out in the real world. :laughing:


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## SVT CAMR (Apr 17, 2012)

That BA should get a beating by the members of your local. There should be a big turn out at the next meeting asking for his resignation. If not it will become the new norm with no backlash. The guy who took the call should be dealt with as well. 

Sux when you feel like the only one who cares huh!


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

eejack said:


> Well you are talking about an area controlled by big money anti union folks so it can get bad.
> 
> First thing you can do is learn how to communicate. No one will ever care about your plight when you sound like a toothless idiot. i do not care what anyone thinks about my grammar. i think thats kind of a low blow. i am asking for help from other locals. if this site is judgmental about petty things keep your comments to yourself. many great electricians that i have worked with cant spell. most are mechanics and street smart. logical. not professors. not asking for critics. just answers.


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

we are obviously dealing with new language and many of our members have not had to deal with it. thanks eejack for ridicule. good to know brothers like you are always around. (it is hard to display sarcasm in text). anyways... our local is in disarray. losing face is our biggest challenge. not with contractors but between our own members. anytime a member files charges on a fellow member it sickens me. solidarity is key to a union in my book. why it had to come to this is what troubles me. if this site doesnt work any answers, i still have ibew frnds n fam. goobye all. thank god i am done talking so i can take my teef back out.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

cl219um said:


> i do not care what anyone thinks about my grammar. i think thats kind of a low blow. i am asking for help from other locals. if this site is judgmental about petty things keep your comments to yourself. many great electricians that i have worked with cant spell. most are mechanics and street smart. logical. not professors. not asking for critics. just answers.


Oy.

I gave you kind and sound advice - if you choose to be insulted by it then your loss. If you complain to the international sounding like you sound they will just dump your complaint in the toilet. 

If you cannot be bothered to act like a professional then get used to being treated like a laborer. You are in a skill trade, act like it or go swing a hammer.

Sheesh.


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

I got banned from ibew friends and family because I'm a CE.

You're preaching to the choir over there.

I'm of the opinion that CE/CW's need to be brought up than kept down, right now as far as wages/compensation there's no competition, if they're closer to JIW scale and benefits there won't be as much incentive to use them.

Trust me, they will be misused and abused in more ways than one.


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

been in the trade for 20 years this summer. dont care to take disrespect from unknown. coworkers fun. strangers none. if you can help. great. you have an ibew bug for your banner. kinda expected more than blows. my question to you is, if i do file a grievance on our ba, what repercussion can we as a local expect? will the IO come in and rip us apart?


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

TGGT said:


> I got banned from ibew friends and family because I'm a CE.
> 
> You're preaching to the choir over there.
> 
> ...


We have have CE/CW's in their many names and forms in our local for nearly 30 years and for the most part the stories about them stealing our work is fairy tales.

If you do not allow the contractors to abuse the hall, then there is no issue.

There will always be individual cases and exceptions - that is all part of the politics and business of a hiring hall, but you have to look at the overall picture. Do the exceptions help or hurt the local?

My problem is the 'brothers' from the 'friends and family' are all about themselves and their concept of 'brotherhood' - which is a pretty twisted and self serving view of things.

Instead of seeing CE/CW for what it is...an entre into areas we cannot get A journeyman labor...they make up stories about them taking work. I had one of them outside my hall last year trying to stir up crap about CE's were being allowed on sites to tie in panels on A jobs. When pressed he admitted he read it on the internet somewhere...I wonder where.

So I apologize TGGT that some of our union brethen are misguided selfish idiots. There are many who are not.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

eejack said:


> We have have CE/CW's in their many names and forms in our local for nearly 30 years and for the most part the stories about them stealing our work is fairy tales.


More bologna. 

164 has never had low paid CE or CW workers working on large jobs next to "A" journeyman as a normal practice like it is where TGGT is.

Having a "B" program for residential or small works jobs is a completely different animal that the IO's CE/CW BS that some locals are plagued with.



eejack said:


> Instead of seeing CE/CW for what it is...an entre into areas we cannot get A journeyman labor...they make up stories about them taking work. I had one of them outside my hall last year trying to stir up crap about CE's were being allowed on sites to tie in panels on A jobs. When pressed he admitted he read it on the internet somewhere...I wonder where.
> 
> So I apologize TGGT that some of our union brethen are misguided selfish idiots. There are many who are not.


TGGT IS that guy, a CE/CW classification, tying in panels on "A" jobs, and doing all the other work of an "A" journeyman. :laughing:


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

cl219um said:


> been in the trade for 20 years this summer. dont care to take disrespect from unknown. coworkers fun. strangers none. if you can help. great. you have an ibew bug for your banner. kinda expected more than blows. my question to you is, if i do file a grievance on our ba, what repercussion can we as a local expect? will the IO come in and rip us apart?


If you file a grievance on your BA you will bring a lot of scrutiny upon the local. 

Now, if the BA is wrong and there is no good reason for his actions then that scrutiny will cause punishment and perhaps change. If he is justified in his actions ( and more than likely he will be found justified ) then you are just poking the bear.

In either case you are weakening your local because the international likes to meddle and the grievance gives them a reason. 

What I would suggest is to get all the facts in order and decide - it sounds from your description to be a single person list jumped and took a lesser wage. What we don't know is all the other parts - was it a mercy call ( going to lose his house and needed money or lose his benefits ), was it to help out a contractor loyal to the local, was it to attract a new contractor - there are lots of good reasons to bend rules.

You need to be able to prove that the actions taken were against the best interests of the local or that the BA directly benefited from it in order to stand a chance of success.

If you think it is in the locals best interest to involve the international, then write it up without malice and submit it, then be prepared to back that up with standing in front of a committee and defending your case.

It is not a light thing to do, but when it needs to be done, it needs to be done right.


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

i work in michigan. we, as a state, have a ratio of apprentice to journeyman to keep. with this in the state of michigan, our local never dreamed this would pass. yet the IO slammed it in. the only way it would work here is if we took in a licensed journeyman from a non-union contractor to work on a job that meets the exceptions to have ce/cew's. we didnt see, as a local, from the start, that anyone in their right mind would accept a position under this for less pay and less benefits. sure enough. we now have one person doing it under this.:blink: . doing it legally as the position was intended. to organize at least.


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

eejack said:


> We have have CE/CW's in their many names and forms in our local for nearly 30 years and for the most part the stories about them stealing our work is fairy tales.
> 
> If you do not allow the contractors to abuse the hall, then there is no issue.
> 
> ...


Well I can say they have been used on very large construction jobs, which are supposedly the kind of jobs they're not supposed to be on at all. We're definitely not on small commercial jobs. I'm on a job right now that's putting in lines for manufacturing.

Some locals seem to have a better program, ours certainly does not, it's poorly written and even more poorly executed. The scale can't even compete with non-union. A CE-3 makes 18.40 here (JIW is 25) and I was offered a non-union residential job for 21 and better benefits (our sub-plan is exempt from many key changes from Obamacare like free preventative care) Boy was that tempting.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

TGGT said:


> Well I can say they have been used on very large construction jobs, which are supposedly the kind of jobs they're not supposed to be on at all. We're definitely not on small commercial jobs. I'm on a job right now that's putting in lines for manufacturing.
> 
> Some locals seem to have a better program, ours certainly does not, it's poorly written and even more poorly executed. The scale can't even compete with non-union. A CE-3 makes 18.40 here (JIW is 25) and I was offered a non-union residential job for 21 and better benefits (our sub-plan is exempt from many key changes from Obamacare like free preventative care) Boy was that tempting.


Then the issue is with the local that allows it to happen and not the men manning the jobs. Our program is pretty solid though I can see how contractors would abuse any advantage then can. 

What makes it worse is when the A journeymen, instead of working with their brothers, abuse them and make their lives a misery. Why would you ever help me get you off of an A job and put you out of work when all you get from me is hateful rhetoric?

If/when the program works everyone ends up with more work - when it does not, the contractors end up make a couple of extra dollars and everyone else suffers.


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

eejack said:


> Then the issue is with the local that allows it to happen and not the men manning the jobs. Our program is pretty solid though I can see how contractors would abuse any advantage then can.
> 
> What makes it worse is when the A journeymen, instead of working with their brothers, abuse them and make their lives a misery. Why would you ever help me get you off of an A job and put you out of work when all you get from me is hateful rhetoric?
> 
> If/when the program works everyone ends up with more work - when it does not, the contractors end up make a couple of extra dollars and everyone else suffers.


so you are saying your pension is double dipped? one from your home local, and one from the IO. just trying to get where you are coming from. you really seem to be on the fence. well versed in the situation.


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

statement of the day. the IO wants money whether from a members or other. end of story. any journeyman will tell you. if your going to be a tradesmen, be a journeyman. if you are starting out, be an apprentice. i think the ce/cew program just puts money in dues in the pockets of a cause other than MY local union.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

cl219um said:


> so you are saying your pension is double dipped? one from your home local, and one from the IO. just trying to get where you are coming from. you really seem to be on the fence. well versed in the situation.


The more union electricians we have working, the more we benefit as a group. A journeymen are too expensive ( and improperly trained quite frankly ) for many of the jobs CE/CWs are intended for.

We as an group would have better market share and more money going into our funds if we could get back into large residential, and small commercial.

I don't want CE/CWs doing my work, but I do want them working and I want them to get good benefits and training and pay and the opportunity to become A journeymen. I believe as a group we need all the diversity we can get, there are only so many power plants and the like we can build.

My home local is way more important to me than the IO - the IO decides matters nationwide that don't bode well for my local - they have everyone organizing like mad for example...bad thing to do right now around here - but they also give all of us more clout in Washington, so you have to balance the harm the IO does against the benefits.

Honestly I don't know what the answer is...I just believe we cannot aim our hatred at our own members - regardless of their classification or how they became members. If we are a brotherhood, we need to act like it.


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

HackWork said:


> That's pretty much all there is to it.
> 
> CE/CW are rats coming at us from the inside.
> 
> ...


gave up enough. last negotiations didnt bode well.tired of giving.


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

once we have a bunch of laborers working for minimum wage, thats when negotiations will go better i am confident.:laughing:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

eejack said:


> The more union electricians we have working, the more we benefit as a group. A journeymen are too expensive ( and improperly trained quite frankly ) for many of the jobs CE/CWs are intended for.
> 
> We as an group would have better market share and more money going into our funds if we could get back into large residential, and small commercial.
> 
> ...


As you showed earlier, you don't know how it is outside of your local. You weren't aware that CE/CW men are actually manning large commercial jobs and doing the full work of "A" JW's. It's a shame that you didn't know that, I guess you didn't watch the DVD that the local sent out that specifically showed this happening.

I, like you, have no problem with the "B" program guys, now called CE/CW, in my own local. They man the smaller jobs that could only be done for a lower rate. 

The difference is that some locals were forced to take the CE/CW program int he way that the IO wanted, and they are putting CE/CW's on large jobs to do "A" work while the "A" JW's sit at home.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

TGGT said:


> But I haven't given it up, and I haven't sat around just _hoping_ things will change.
> 
> And this isn't coming from a guy that works non-union on the side, or whatever it is you do now. I don't recall reading that you were a signatory contractor. I'm sure your buddies at F&F would praise your kindness for putting their bench warmers to work. I honestly don't give a f*ck either way. That's your business, good for you if you're making money and achieving your goals, I'm trying to do the same.


 First, I fully admit my position. I have never said that what I am doing is the right thing by the IBEW (altho my local knows what I am doing).

Second, I have always been behind you, I want nothing more than for you to succeed. It's just a shame because you passed up a huge opportunity with Vic and then after that I sat there screaming at you not to sign as a CE/CW, but you wouldn't listen. And it's hurting you now. 




> I'm really missing that 'go f*ck your own face' button right now.


I'll pretend that you pressed it and tell you that I can't see that sh1t from my house.


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

HackWork said:


> First, I fully admit my position. I have never said that what I am doing is the right thing by the IBEW (altho my local knows what I am doing).
> 
> Second, I have always been behind you, I want nothing more than for you to succeed. It's just a shame because you passed up a huge opportunity with Vic and then after that I sat there screaming at you not to sign as a CE/CW, but you wouldn't listen. And it's hurting you now.


I seriously regret putting Vic in a bad spot, though I don't regret turning it down because I knew I wasn't going to stay in Philly long enough to get in the program.

Life happened and I married a girl from Texas.

I have always had a tendency to push the hardest arguments and take the roughest roads.I might be masochistic.


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## mikeh32 (Feb 16, 2009)

I wish we had wire pullers for low voltage work at times.


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## SVT CAMR (Apr 17, 2012)

mikeh32 said:


> I wish we had wire pullers for low voltage work at times.


Yeah maybe when the "A" Card are done piping it for you we'll just pull it too. Might as well terminate too while were at it. No need for the "C" Division. 

Watch what you wish for. :jester:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

In the mean time merit shops step in, complete the job and take more of the market share ..... :whistling2:


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

BBQ said:


> In the mean time merit shops step in, complete the job and take more of the market share ..... :whistling2:


merit shops hire people out of the local tavern with no experience, push wire # 12 into the backs of receptacles, mislabel panels and circuits, and spend most time and money on one guy on the job that actually has some experience to troubleshoot so the place works half [email protected]@ED.


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

oh. btw. mostly in states with little to no license requirements.


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## SVT CAMR (Apr 17, 2012)

cl219um said:


> merit shops hire people out of the local tavern with no experience, push wire # 12 into the backs of receptacles, mislabel panels and circuits, and spend most time and money on one guy on the job that actually has some experience to troubleshoot so the place works half [email protected]@ED.


Don't feed the trolls. :no:


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

SVT CAMR said:


> Don't feed the trolls. :no:


by explaining some everyday things i have seen when i worked out of a merit shop? dont care. the union has changed my experiences in the trade for the better. ran for a non union contractor in the past. i tried it..


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