# Installing feeder cable



## Wirenuting

It's Iraq, in the field, on a military site. 
Don't know what they are wiring and cant see the vid very well so I can't say what might be wrong. 
They aren't required to follow the NEC while doing temp field work. Mission requirements always come first. 

What did you think is wrong?


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## oldtimer

Joe Tedesco said:


> Please take a look at this video and tell us what you see and if you would accept the installation.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SlCz1jaZBw&feature=autofb


 I see HACKS.


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## Rudeboy

The neutrals look like they were landed pretty nicely.


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## den

I thought they put the neutral on the wrong lug.


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## McClary’s Electrical

The neutral's in the wrong place under '08 code and not ran in the same cable assembly as the conductors


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## B4T

First of all the guy has "girly hands".. he can't cut AL with a pair of lineman's and needs a ratchet cable cutter.. :blink:

If that is a main panel.. it is fine..

If a sub-panel.. the bare AL he is cutting should go over to the neutral bar and the other bar #6 AL would be the ground..

I have never seen a cable where there were (2) different bare conductors like that..


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## McClary’s Electrical

B4T said:


> If that is a main panel.. it is fine..
> 
> .


 

Wrong. :no: 200.2 (b)


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## B4T

mcclary's electrical said:


> Wrong. :no: 200.2 (b)


200.2 General. All premises wiring systems, other than
circuits and systems exempted or prohibited by 210.10,
215.7, 250.21, 250.22, 250.162, 503.155, 517.63, 668.11,
668.21, and 690.41, Exception, shall have a grounded conductor
that is identified in accordance with 200.6. The
grounded conductor shall comply with 200.2(A) and (B).
(A) Insulation. The grounded conductor, where insulated,
shall have insulation that is (1) suitable, other than color,
for any ungrounded conductor of the same circuit on circuits
of less than 1000 volts or impedance grounded neutral
systems of 1 kV and over, or (2) rated not less than 600
volts for solidly grounded neutral systems of 1 kV and over
as described in 250.184(A).
(B) Continuity. The continuity of a grounded conductor
shall not depend on a connection to a metallic enclosure,
raceway, or cable armor.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## Dennis Alwon

Joe how do you expect an answer when we can't see what is what. The wire they are cutting doesn't seem to be part of the cable assembly but is it being used that way. Is see another strand of aluminum-- is that supposed to be braided with the one they are working on? I see green conductors-- I can't tell what is what.....It looks wrong but I have no idea.


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## BBQ

Dennis Alwon said:


> The wire they are cutting doesn't seem to be part of the cable assembly but is it being used that way.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steel_Wire_Armoured_(SWA)_Cable












FWIW That is part of the cable, that is SWA cable.


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## Dennis Alwon

So why are there 2 braided aluminum bare conductors? or did they just split them apart. Also looks like 2 green conductors. I wasn't sure all of those conductors were part of the cable.


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## BBQ

Dennis Alwon said:


> So why are there 2 braided aluminum bare conductors? or did they just split them apart. Also looks like 2 green conductors. I wasn't sure all of those conductors were part of the cable.


The two greens are not part of the cable assembly, I bet at least one goes to an grounding electrode and the other goes to the frame of the trailer they are wiring.

Trailer you say?

Yeah that looks like a typical American job trailer and that 1.25" PVC leaving the bottom of the panel is just a sleeve to the underside of the trailer.

Here we would be using SER in place of SWA.

But as Joe put this in the UK forum I assume these guys are installing based on the codes used in England and France etc.


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## frenchelectrican

I did look at the veido however I may have one quirk I do understand that is a " jobsite " trailer or module but they should be carefull with support with SWA cable and I hope they are aware they have to bond both interal earth and armour strands at BOTH ends { this is very specfic in UK and French electrical codes I know NEC is simair to this .,, }

I Just hope that electrician in that veido do understand the modern European conductor colour codes plus old codes on some of the exsting locations.

And the British Standard 17 editon did tighten up the reguations a bit I don't have full scope of it but our UK Electricians will fill you in a bit if the chime in otherwise I will find a way with it.

Merci.
Marc


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## Englishsparky

Personally I think it's wrong the way they have done the installation. 
The armouring should be secured in the cable gland, which looking at the video hasn't been used. I have seen armouring secured with a jubilee clip or an earth clamp say in a lamp post but never like that. I would also hope the hole where where the cable comes through has something to protect the rough edges...


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## Englishsparky

Marc, has far as the 17th edition, I'm sure they have just tightened up on the earthing arrangements and use of rcd. I'll try to get some more info for you all.
Ian


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## Trimix-leccy

from a 17th edn [uk] point of view....WRONG

swa not glanded
swa should be glanded off and either 'banjo'd' or better still done with an Earthing Nut and earth tail


but looking at rest of pic it couls be a US panel of which I know/understand nothing:no:


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## Joe Tedesco

BBQ said:


> The two greens are not part of the cable assembly, I bet at least one goes to an grounding electrode and the other goes to the frame of the trailer they are wiring.
> 
> Trailer you say?
> 
> Yeah that looks like a typical American job trailer and that 1.25" PVC leaving the bottom of the panel is just a sleeve to the underside of the trailer.
> 
> Here we would be using SER in place of SWA.
> 
> But as Joe put this in the UK forum I assume these guys are installing based on the codes used in England and France etc.


Yes, I posted this in the UK forum and expected to hear from those who recognize the wiring method and have used the British Standards 7671, 16th and 17th editions.. This is a panelboard in a building similar to these. I imagine that some who were in Iraq and worked there as an electrician or inspector could help and explain what we did there. Where is ibuzzard?


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## Englishsparky

Trimix-leccy said:


> from a 17th edn [uk] point of view....WRONG
> 
> swa not glanded
> swa should be glanded off and either 'banjo'd' or better still done with an Earthing Nut and earth tail
> 
> 
> but looking at rest of pic it couls be a US panel of which I know/understand nothing:no:


I agree with you, I only moved over here in september so that's why I posted what I did above you...:thumbsup:


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## frenchelectrican

Joe T.,

Just one question did that place have uility power source or it was running off from diesel generator source ? if latter you can actually stick to NEC but draw off from Uility side you have to use both BS7671 et NEC codes depending on how it lay out.

Englishsparky.,

I did have a copy of 16 th edition with me however I did not get the 17 th edition yet but I will plan to get it soon in couple weeks when I go up to London during my free time.

Trimix.,

That photo that Joe posted that is a legit Americiané panel and it little tricky to deal if not watch out it is not the same as some of UK panels I have see it.

They typically use 120/240 volts monophase or 208Y120 triphase supply depending on type of panelboard and supply source.



Merci.
Marc


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## Englishsparky

If your in the US Marc, I'm sure I could get you a copy of the 17th edition of BS7671:thumbsup:


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## frenchelectrican

Englishsparky said:


> If your in the US Marc, I'm sure I could get you a copy of the 17th edition of BS7671:thumbsup:


Yeah it will be nice however I am still in France.

Merci.
Marc


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## Englishsparky

frenchelectrican said:


> Yeah it will be nice however I am still in France.
> 
> Merci.
> Marc


Well if you ever come to Houston look me up pal...:thumbsup:


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## frank

SWAcable should be glanded and the SWA outer protected cables not earthed/grounded as shown.Any inner foil fire /Emf protecting cover would be automatically earthed/grounded also if this was done.Neutrals and earths not colour coded. Main cable colours no longer correct but acceptable if a notice placed on outer cover. Otherwise looks fine.

Frank


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## Southeast Power

B4T said:


> First of all the guy has "girly hands".. he can't cut AL with a pair of lineman's and needs a ratchet cable cutter.. :blink:
> 
> If that is a main panel.. it is fine..
> 
> If a sub-panel.. the bare AL he is cutting should go over to the neutral bar and the other bar #6 AL would be the ground..
> 
> I have never seen a cable where there were (2) different bare conductors like that..


Even better, it was a hydraulic cutter.....

I think that was about as much as he was going to get under that lug. That's why he split it.


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## Joe Tedesco

frenchelectrican said:


> Joe T.,
> 
> Just one question did that place have uility power source or it was running off from diesel generator source ? if latter you can actually stick to NEC but draw off from Uility side you have to use both BS7671 et NEC codes depending on how it lay out.
> 
> Englishsparky.,
> 
> I did have a copy of 16 th edition with me however I did not get the 17 th edition yet but I will plan to get it soon in couple weeks when I go up to London during my free time.
> 
> Trimix.,
> 
> That photo that Joe posted that is a legit Americiané panel and it little tricky to deal if not watch out it is not the same as some of UK panels I have see it.
> 
> They typically use 120/240 volts monophase or 208Y120 triphase supply depending on type of panelboard and supply source.
> 
> 
> 
> Merci.
> Marc


The installation was using two generators with a transfer switch. I will post some pictures soon.


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## frank

Joe,

If 2 generators are used don't forget to install an earth electrode at each generator,

Frank


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## frenchelectrican

frank said:


> Joe,
> 
> If 2 generators are used don't forget to install an earth electrode at each generator,
> 
> Frank


 
I am sure they did use the earth electrode but if not someone make a cluster on that one.

Merci.
Marc


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## Docara

Hi Joe

With what I saw - You have 3 phase and neutral (3P+N) coming in on SWA plus a double earth cable. 

Now, whilst you can use the actual armoured as an earth connection it does depend on the Earth Loop reading you get at testing. But it's frowned upon because you cannot guarantee (again generally) over the life of the installation that a good earth connection can be maintained (via the glands)

In this situation those phase conductors look 16mm2 so I would pull also pull in a 10mm2 (or 16mm2 depending on supply) earth. 

The SWA needs to be correctly terminated with a gland to the board not forgetting to drill a 6mm hole for the brass nut and bolt for the banjo and earth connection (later)

The Earth needs to enter the board via something like a stuffing gland (nylon compression joint) and connect to the Earth bar within the board. 

A bit of 10mm2 (say) earth off-cut then needs to be connected from the earth bar to the SWA earthing gland (banjo) so that the armour is earthed in case of mechanical damage. This arrangement also does 2 things 1) effectively increases the CSA of the earth cable by having a parallel earth path and 2)allows for disconnection of SWA armour to test & verify the 'proper' earth connection.

If the board is metal also daisychain this connection to a suitable connection point or alternatively run a separate earth connection to the board.

Sleeve (or tape) the phases and neutral to the the proper colour 

Terminate the phases into the main switch
Terminate the neutral onto the neutral bar

Questions

Why the double earth incoming???
Do you install any type of local isolation prior to the board - it might not be a bad idea

Regard
Matt

P.S. have PMed you


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## Englishsparky

I only disagree with your second paragraph matt, every job I have every worked were happy with using the armouring as the earth, except the mod on a American base. You mostly only run separate earths in with a SWA if it's either in the spec to do so and it's over a certain size which 50mm is ringing bells but I could be wrong...


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## Docara

EnglishSparky a thought for you considering our beloved, wonderful competant euro brethrin - Polish (and similar) electricians

Yeah I know where your coming from with reference an additional Earth - but it was an answer on a public forum where the installation is in harsh conditions. Using the armoured, as stated, is perfectly acceptable it is dependant on the readings. BUT I appreciate cost is also a factor but it is easier to pull in a thicker Earth than to replace a fully terminated armoured

You and I both know if an SWA cable is installed correctly - cable tied to tray for example, a proper good quality gland used AND made off correctly there would be no real world issue but.... to use the armour as an earth you then have 3 connections per end instead of 1. Armour to gland (1) gland to cable (2) cable to earth bar(3) each one of those is a source of a 'dodgy' connection or oxidisation.

Using an additional earth with no breaks in it cable tied to it's own SWA with a bit of slack before enterring the board and only connected at each end is by order of magnitude a better way of earthing because, if nothing else, you have enherant redundancy.

We must not forget a number of poor b*stards were electrocuted when they had a shower in Iraq due to poor electrics. I would prefer my advice to be slightly over the mark than slightly under.

Sorry matey not telling you to suck eggs people who do not know better will be reading the posts so I outlined my reasons to use an additional cable in full and they can make a professional judgmet call.

Cheers
Matt


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## Englishsparky

Matt,
I weren't trying to pick fault but your quite right. You are better to go over the top then not, especially when a lot of people here don't work with the English regulations. I do feel for you still being there. What kind of work do you do matt? I mainly did commercial in the UK, mainly sainsburys, but I have done a load more.. It would be nice if you could post some pics on here like Frank does for our American cousins...
Ian


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## B4T

jrannis said:


> Even better, it was a hydraulic cutter.....
> 
> I think that was about as much as he was going to get under that lug. That's why he split it.


I just looked again.. the clicking sounded like a ratchet, but it was hydrolic..

The guy should wear a pink tool belt.. :no:


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## Docara

Hi Ian

Please dont think for one minute i thought you were picking fault.

I think the 50mm thing you were remembering is to do with the maximum realistic CSA size of an earth. you know where you earth is half (or one up) from the CSA of your feeds eg 50mm2 youd have 25mm2 earth up to a max of 50mm2.

I'm still in the UK trying to get over to Afghanistan for a while now, it's the only place where the work is.

I'm just your run of the mill agency spark do everything apart from housebashing you know the score!! (yeah I chased the money) then Nov 09 finished a contract and have had nothing since - lost my house last year currently in my van. Single bloke no family or kids guess what help I get. Good old welfare state if i had a kid i'd be on £400 a week instead of £60

Sounds like you probably did the same type of work i did going round the supermarkets.

Things do seem to be picking up a little been phoning round and groundworkers are in demand so 3 or 4 months you never know.

What made you go over the pond and how the hell do you get on with their kit looking on 'Holmes on homes' there DBs and 'recepticles' are about 20 -30 years behind ours


Oh Yeah fuel has just hit £1.35 a litre - £6.15 a gallon

Matt


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## frenchelectrican

Matt .,

sorry to side track real quick I know you mention fuel price is that on gazoline or Diesel fuel ??

I know in France it is 1.25€/ liter{ Diesel or Gazoil } but heard it will creep up a bit soon .,, Merde !


As far for the SWA termation I know it been discussed before few time in this part and in General electrical section on this fourm.

I know Joe T did have my Chart for mm² to AWG size and I am pretty sure he will double check it.

One instering part I do not know if those guys in Iraq area did megger test the cables before they actually engerized the circuits which it is pretty much standard pratice we do in Europe.

Merci.
Marc


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## Docara

Diesel 1.35 (and rising)
Petrol 1.32 (and rising)

went up over night by 2p 

Joe T asked a question on the english part of the forum about our thoughts on the video and what we saw, of which I gave my opinion - I don't undersand why do we need a mm2 to AMG conversion 

Doing a 'Megger' test or an Insulation Resistance test is not the only test to be carried out it should only be 1 part of the overall testing. That testing involves basic 'unenergised' testing and energised testing 

Dead Test
1) continuity
2) R1+R2 (Live to Earth resistance) per circuit
3) Insulation Resisance

Then when you are satisfied the basic connection and cable are satisfactory you then energise the circuit 

Live Tests
5) to verify polarity (who's to say the incoming feed is wired correctly)
6) Earth Fault Loop
7) phase rotation if applicable eg motor
8) to verify RCD's trip in the correct time

By virtue of you knowing Earth Fault Loop and R1+R2 and reference to the tables in the on-site guide you can check Zs valueensuring MCB's would trip in time under fault conditions. Also depending on the type of installation you can verify the Earth Rod resistance and connection at the Distribution Board 

You then put your name and sign on the dotted line and walk away knowing the installation is safe - why do you think we have to spend approx £800+ on a tester.

Matt


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## Mike in Canada

frenchelectrican said:


> I did look at the veido however I may have one quirk I do understand that is a " jobsite " trailer or module but they should be carefull with support with SWA cable and I hope they are aware they have to bond both interal earth and armour strands at BOTH ends { this is very specfic in UK and French electrical codes I know NEC is simair to this .,, }


 I've never seen SWA, particularly, but it looks like an un-armored version of TECK-90.


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## Docara

Hi Mike

Can't comment on Tech-90 - never heard of it.

SWA or Steel Wired Armoured it comes in a lot of guises. You can get it as small as 1.5mm2 2 core (Live, Neutral and Earth) right up to 300mm2 5 core(3 phase +neutral + Earth). 
Its 'normal' power stranded cables for use where mechanical protection is required eg outside fixed along the wall or underground.

Our wiring system is very keen on protecting and looking after the integrity of the cables and not relying on the circuit protection 'catching' problems when they occur.

It is good practice to earth the armour and indeed the armour is often used as the main Earthing conductor for the installation. The reason the armour is earthed is that should anything go through the cable - a digger or pick axe say then there is a relable path to earth that will trip the cables circuit breaker and ensure the cable 'goes dead' instead of using the digger for the path to earth.

Matt


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## Joe Tedesco

Mike in Canada said:


> I've never seen SWA, particularly, but it looks like an un-armored version of TECK-90.


SWA


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## oldtimer

Mike in Canada said:


> I've never seen SWA, particularly, but it looks like an un-armored version of TECK-90.


 SWA, is armoured, it is very similar to our Teck 90. Could be the same thing, just named differently.


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## Englishsparky

I think the main difference is our strands are called the armouring rather then like the US version of armouring which is similar to our metal flexible conduit.


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## frenchelectrican

Englishsparky said:


> I think the main difference is our strands are called the armouring rather then like the US version of armouring which is similar to our metal flexible conduit.


 
Not only that also if you noted that some of the POCO primary UG cables are simauir to the SWA cable there is not a huge diffrence on construction but just slightly diffrent materales to use to withstand the meduim / high voltage system.

For TECK -90 cable I think it simauir to the MC cable but not sure due I do not have the photo of Teck 90 cable yet.

Merci.
Marc


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## Joe Tedesco

frenchelectrican said:


> Matt .,
> 
> sorry to side track real quick I know you mention fuel price is that on gazoline or Diesel fuel ??
> 
> I know in France it is 1.25€/ liter{ Diesel or Gazoil } but heard it will creep up a bit soon .,, Merde !
> 
> 
> As far for the SWA termation I know it been discussed before few time in this part and in General electrical section on this fourm.
> 
> I know Joe T did have my Chart for mm² to AWG size and I am pretty sure he will double check it.
> 
> One instering part I do not know if those guys in Iraq area did megger test the cables before they actually engerized the circuits which it is pretty much standard pratice we do in Europe.
> 
> Merci.
> Marc


Here is the chart, see also Table 8 in the NEC as well.


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## Del

*Teck 90 no comparison to SWA*

Oldtimer was comparing Teck 90 to SWA. Theres no comparison except the copper.
Teck 90 is Aluminium (note the correct spelling) armouring.
SWA is galvanized steel armouring. 
SWA has a better bending radius-the armour does not snap when bent in too tight a radius.
SWA glands have a better IP index of protection. SWA glands have a lot smaller footprint on the gland plate.

I used to use 4c on a 3p feeder, so I could use the spare as addition earthing(ground) conductor.

I'm off the kit now, having moved to Canada- gained a job at a Consulting Engineer's- poacher turned gamekeeper.

The video is american panel with uk SWA cable feeder. The green looked to me like it was some pullstrings(looked a bit furry).

I bet they did not do a prospective fault current test!


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## Joe Tedesco

*More examples of SWA*

Here are a few pictures of SWA. How long does it take to teminate the 240 mm size properly into a knockout?


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## oldtimer

Del said:


> Oldtimer was comparing Teck 90 to SWA. Theres no comparison except the copper.
> Teck 90 is Aluminium (note the correct spelling) armouring.
> SWA is galvanized steel armouring.
> SWA has a better bending radius-the armour does not snap when bent in too tight a radius.
> SWA glands have a better IP index of protection. SWA glands have a lot smaller footprint on the gland plate.
> 
> I used to use 4c on a 3p feeder, so I could use the spare as addition earthing(ground) conductor.
> 
> I'm off the kit now, having moved to Canada- gained a job at a Consulting Engineer's- poacher turned gamekeeper.
> 
> The video is american panel with uk SWA cable feeder. The green looked to me like it was some pullstrings(looked a bit furry).
> 
> I bet they did not do a prospective fault current test!


 I stand corrected.:thumbsup: Never too old to learn.


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## Englishsparky

Joe Tedesco said:


> Here are a few pictures of SWA. How long does it take to teminate the 240 mm size properly into a knockout?


It depends on what type of knockout you are terminating it into, if you have to bend the armoured and such like. Last 240mm armoured I glanded at a company called porta-stor it took well over an hour cause we had to bend the armoured off a ladder rack just over a metre above the panel....:thumbsup:


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## frenchelectrican

Joe T.,

To do the proper termation on 240mm² 5 core*SWA cable it will take anywhere from half hour to a hour depending on how it strung out in the termation box and this with myself without a helper with moi but with helper with moi it will knock it down a bit.

That with proper tools but with basic tools it will take a mite longer and you will denfiely need special crimper to deal with triangle shaped conductor { common with 100mm² and larger conductors } unless you snag a vee shaped lug connector to screw it in. { that is my last resort item I never trust it 100 % }

Merci.
Marc

* both 4 and 5 core conductors will take about the same amout of time


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## Docara

An hour to do a 240 !!!!!

Do you do lottery numbers as well


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## frenchelectrican

Docara said:


> An hour to do a 240 !!!!!
> 
> Do you do lottery numbers as well


All it depending on how it the SWA cable run and the tempture and lay out in the panelboard.

I can go super fast but rather not get too crazy and get the armoured strands wacked out.

{ in very cold weather it will take longer but it can be done }

Merci.
Marc


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