# Trading up M18 for M12



## Kevin (Feb 14, 2017)

Most of my tools are M12 with a few exceptions.

I have an M18 drill for using a hole saw and auger, and I have an M18 flood light.

As for M12, I have:

A drill

2 impacts


A flashlight


Bandsaw


Oscillating Multi-tool


Soldering iron


Like 5 or 6 M12 only chargers


and a small stockpile of batteries

And a bluetooth stereo that works with M12 or M18 batteries.
None of my M12 tools are FUEL and they work great. I wouldn't use an M18 drill unless I have to.

I would totally recommend these for residential work and light commercial.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I think it would be a bad idea to try to use M 12 tools for everything. I think it’s optimal to use both M 18 and M 12.

The other day I watched a video of a member here who was using a huge M 18 drill to drive a screw in. That should be done with an M 12 impact gun. There are many things that M 12 tools will do very well, but there are still many tasks in which you should use M 18 tools. For example, the M 12 oscillating tool simply doesn’t have the power that the M 18 model has.


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## Kevin (Feb 14, 2017)

HackWork said:


> For example, the M 12 oscillating tool simply doesn’t have the power that the M 18 model has.


I haven't used mine for much, but I do have to agree that it's not as powerful. I only use mine for cutting in boxes to wood (island plugs, board & batten, old baseboard, etc). 

If I were to have to use it for more, I'd probably buy an M18 model.

Sent from my new phone. Autocorrect may have changed stuff.


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

M12 is intended for specialists. It’s not either/or. It’s either/and.

Different marketing and it’s a trap. With SBD they market Dewalt 20 V Max and Flexvolt as a premium tool line. Flex is more specialized. This is where both MX and M12 come in but I’m getting ahead of myself.
They market Craftsman, Porter Cable, and B&D as budget/value lines. Within Deewalt Flexvokt is for higher power tools. Think HD and now MX in Milwaukee tools. They have a smaller/low voltage supplementary Dewalt tool line that is not popular called V12. I’m not sure if Atomic is V12 or the successor. It is intended to get into places the bigger tools can’t and be a lighter “daily driver” just like Flexvolt competes with say Ego for string trimmers and leaf blowers on the high power end.

Over in the Milwaukee camp, M18 and M12 are the same way. If you buy just one tool, get the M18. After that get the M12 to supplement, not the other way around. Unlike V12, M12 is a really good supplement with lots of options. There is not a budget line. There is a high power line but it’s hidden. Ignoring MX which was just announced for 2020, the M18 batteries come in 5 CP, 10 XC, and 15 cell HD sizes. You can theoretically use any battery in any tool but don’t expect a leaf blower to run on a 2.0 CP battery at full power and more than a few seconds before the battery overheats.

That’s the issue. With SBD these subtle issues are kind of obvious. But HD at least around here does a horrible job with Milwaukee placing M12 up front next to say Ryobi as if to suggest it’s a budget friendly Milwaukee tool line which it isn’t. So then when customers figure out it seems very light duty they get a bad taste that is undeserved. Otherwise you will see either a tool type breakout (drills, saws, grinders, etc.) or brand specific sections with all sizes and voltages in each brand grouped together. Either way there should be no confusion that M/8 and M12 are different models if the same line, not a premium and budget line. Either HD doesn’t understand what they are selling or Milwaukee is paying for prominence then messing up their own design concept.

For the OP, if you are looking for a budget tool, stick with the SBD lines or store (Ridgid, Kobalt) budget brands. Stay away from Milwaukee. The exception is if you are a specialist such as electrician, plumber, or mechanic. In that case suck it up butter cup. Otherwise buy M18 first then M12 when/if you have the need. Professionals require professional tools and those cost professional money. That’s why you used to get a tax deduction on tools. Homeowners don’t spend enough to get tax deductions. If you are a homeowner or DIY with money, my advice is go M18.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

I definitely think a mix of M18 and M12 is best. In general, you need the M18 when you need the full power and run time; it's nice to have the M12 when the smaller more compact lighter tool is adequate. 

In general, I think when you're making a lot of sawdust or wood chips, you're often going to be better off with the M18. 

The most used M12 tool is the impact, it's more than adequate for driving small screws (short of deck screws) and it's light and compact which is good for a tool you have all the time. 

The M12 hammer drill / driver is fine for drilling small holes in metal, up to say 3/8" . It's fine for a few holes with spade bits or medium sized hole saws, but the M18 is better. In fact the M12 drill isn't really better than the M12 impact for spade bits. The M12 sucks for drilling 1/4" holes for anchors in masonry. (The M18 actually isn't great.) The M12 hammer drill/driver was not at all necessary for me. 

I don't use the M18 impact that much but I couldn't do without it. So if I was buying again, I'd buy the M18 impact & hammer drill / driver kit, and the M12 impact but not the M12 drill-driver.

If I was doing residential I think the M18 super hawg would be one of my first purchases. 

The M12 bandsaw is perfect for working with small conduit, it cuts 1/2", 3/4", and 1" conduit and strut, and it's compact to carry. For residential, I am not sure a bandsaw is a necessary purchase at all. 

I will not opine on hackzalls and sawzalls. I use a reciprocating saw seldom enough that I keep a good corded on the truck and it gets sparse enough use it will probably be the last one I ever need. The oscillating tool - if I was going to buy a cordless, I'd buy the M18.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

If you use a Hackzall all the time like I do, you definitely want 18V.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> If you use a Hackzall all the time like I do, you definitely want 18V.


I feel the opposite. I use it all the time like the M12 impact gun, and I like the smaller frame and lighter weight for both tools. 

For anything that the M12 Fuel Hackzall cant do well, I use another tool like a bandsaw or the corded Super Sawzall.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> I feel the opposite. I use it all the time like the M12 impact gun, and I like the smaller frame and lighter weight for both tools.
> 
> For anything that the M12 Fuel Hackzall cant do well, I use another tool like a bandsaw or the corded Super Sawzall.


Personal choice I guess. I cut a lot of EMT and the 18V makes a huge difference. I don’t have a bandsaw. It’s just another tool to carry around and the reciprocating saw works just fine.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I like having the M18 drills for drilling rough wiring and for the saws, circular and hackzall. I like the M12 impact for most service work. I haven't tried the m12 saws yet.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> Personal choice I guess. I cut a lot of EMT and the 18V makes a huge difference. I don’t have a bandsaw. It’s just another tool to carry around and the reciprocating saw works just fine.


Other than cutting up old rigid service risers, cutting EMT is the only time I use the M12 bandsaw. And when doing EMT I will always get the bandsaw instead of using the hackzawl. It cuts faster, cleaner, and is just easier to use, especially when standing and holding the pipe. 

I don't do that much EMT now so I don't use it often at all, but I think if you do a lot of EMT, you should definitely get one.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I don’t think I’ve ever tried a bandsaw, I’ll have to borrow one to see what I’m missing.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

nrp3 said:


> I don’t think I’ve ever tried a bandsaw, I’ll have to borrow one to see what I’m missing.


When it comes to these smaller innovative battery tools, I have noticed that even when a lot of people say how great a tool is, there are still those who don't care for it. But the M12 bandsaw is one that I don't remember anyone ever complaining about. It seems to be well loved across the board. 

If you have any need for a tool that easily and cleanly cuts metal up to 1-1/4" rigid or 1-5/8" strut, you should definitely get it.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

nrp3 said:


> I don’t think I’ve ever tried a bandsaw, I’ll have to borrow one to see what I’m missing.


I was underwhelmed when I got the M12 bandsaw, opened it up, put in a battery, and pulled the trigger. It's not ferociously fast or anything. 

Then, I cut a strut scrap with it.  

You instantly understand how much more efficient a saw blade going in one direction is, than one that wags back and forth. 

The M12 is small - you can hang it on a belt if you're wearing suspenders - but big enough to handle conduit that you hand bend and strut. And a band saw is efficient so it runs a long time on a 12V battery. 

It is probably my all time favorite power tool. 

It's also very easy to control, the bite of the teeth draws the material into the shoe, so there is no tendency to hop around.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

A bandsaw is probably a great tool but it just seems like an extra tool to carry around. If I’m cutting much strut, I have an old fashioned corded cut off saw.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

HackWork said:


> I feel the opposite. I use it all the time like the M12 impact gun, and I like the smaller frame and lighter weight for both tools.
> 
> For anything that the M12 Fuel Hackzall cant do well, I use another tool like a bandsaw or the corded Super Sawzall.


I really don’t understand the 12volt hacksaw. I have one guy that has one and every time he brings it out I have an overwhelming urge to fire his ass. I call it his T&M tool. 
If I’m on a job, he won’t bring it out.
Problem is, he bought it himself like a rat. If it were mine, I would have tossed it in a canal years ago.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Southeast Power said:


> I really don’t understand the 12volt hacksaw. I have one guy that has one and every time he brings it out I have an overwhelming urge to fire his ass. I call it his T&M tool.
> If I’m on a job, he won’t bring it out.
> Problem is, he bought it himself like a rat. If it were mine, I would have tossed it in a canal years ago.


I found an M12 Hackzall I forgot I owned so I took it for a spin. It reminded me why I upgraded to 18V. It’s a motorized drywall saw.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

99cents said:


> Personal choice I guess. I cut a lot of EMT and the 18V makes a huge difference. I don’t have a bandsaw. It’s just another tool to carry around and the reciprocating saw works just fine.


Anyone else try the metal-cutting circular saw? I have one and I like it. Cuts threaded rod cleanly. For conduit, square cut with almost no burr. Cuts cable tray nicely. Great for making filler plates, cuts as straight as the strait edge you use to guide it. I keep a few tray joiner plates handy to use as a hand-held straight edge for almost any cutting. the only downside is the price of the blades when you need to replace them. $$$


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

joe-nwt said:


> Anyone else try the metal-cutting circular saw? I have one and I like it. Cuts threaded rod cleanly. For conduit, square cut with almost no burr. Cuts cable tray nicely. Great for making filler plates, cuts as straight as the strait edge you use to guide it. I keep a few tray joiner plates handy to use as a hand-held straight edge for almost any cutting. the only downside is the price of the blades when you need to replace them. $$$


I imagine use dictates how often new blades are needed, but how often are you buying new ones?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> I found an M12 Hackzall I forgot I owned so I took it for a spin. It reminded me why I upgraded to 18V. It’s a motorized drywall saw.


That’s because you didn’t buy the fuel model.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

I have both and that works well, however, my M12 stuff is limited to a bunch of Fuel impacts, a Fuel drill, a work light and radio, and loads of batteries from all those overpack bundles on clearance at Depot. I also have the M12 rotary tool but that's strictly for sharpening my chainsaws so that doesn't count.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

MTW said:


> I have both and that works well, however, my M12 stuff is limited to a bunch of Fuel impacts, a Fuel drill, a work light and radio, and loads of batteries from all those overpack bundles on clearance at Depot. I also have the M12 rotary tool but that's strictly for sharpening my chainsaws so that doesn't count.


I had an M12 radio and that thing was amazing, better than the big beast.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

nrp3 said:


> I imagine use dictates how often new blades are needed, but how often are you buying new ones?


Had it for 3 years now. On the 3rd blade. One blade didn't last that long as I was cutting stuff that was likely outside of it's design.


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## zac (May 11, 2009)

joe-nwt said:


> Anyone else try the metal-cutting circular saw? I have one and I like it. Cuts threaded rod cleanly. For conduit, square cut with almost no burr. Cuts cable tray nicely. Great for making filler plates, cuts as straight as the strait edge you use to guide it. I keep a few tray joiner plates handy to use as a hand-held straight edge for almost any cutting. the only downside is the price of the blades when you need to replace them. $$$


I have it too. It's actual lighter (1 lb) and faster then the bandsaw. I use mine when cutting lots of deep strut and when I'm installing service risers (we only can use rigid metal). 
The bandsaw is definitely a smoof operator! 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## The_Modifier (Oct 24, 2009)

paulengr said:


> M12 is intended for specialists. It’s not either/or. It’s either/and.
> 
> Different marketing and it’s a trap. With SBD they market Dewalt 20 V Max and Flexvolt as a premium tool line. Flex is more specialized. This is where both MX and M12 come in but I’m getting ahead of myself.
> They market Craftsman, Porter Cable, and B&D as budget/value lines. Within Deewalt Flexvokt is for higher power tools. Think HD and now MX in Milwaukee tools. They have a smaller/low voltage supplementary Dewalt tool line that is not popular called V12. I’m not sure if Atomic is V12 or the successor. It is intended to get into places the bigger tools can’t and be a lighter “daily driver” just like Flexvolt competes with say Ego for string trimmers and leaf blowers on the high power end.
> ...


Source or just opinion? Links to white papers would be awesome. TIA.:glasses:

We switched to Default about 5 years ago. The Milwaukee stuff kept buring up (drills and impacts) while on the road- made it hard to find replacements going between towns. One night in desperation, I picked up the black and yellow and still have it today. 

I am always interested in trying out new lines of equipment- and do like what I see with the new Milwaukee lineup, but am cautious from the past experience. :vs_cool:

Maybe *rigid* is the way to go?:vs_laugh:


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## JoeSparky (Mar 25, 2010)

My M12 impact and now surge driver is used more often then any other cordless tool I own. The only other M12 tool I own is a drill. Horribly underpowered. I wouldn't use a bit larger then 1/2" in it. M12 tools are a lightweight alternative for most tasks. You'll still need the 18v stuff for tougher jobs. If you already own M18, I'd stick with it and buy a few m12 tools for smaller every day tasks. 
My old blue Ryobi impact (yes, Peter I said Ryobi ) still has more power then an m12 surge driver and my $14 Ryobi 1/2" drill is way more useful then my M12 3/8 drill.


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## Kevin (Feb 14, 2017)

JoeSparky said:


> The only other M12 tool I own is a drill. Horribly underpowered. I wouldn't use a bit larger then 1/2" in it.


You say that, and I laugh because I burnt an M12 drill out with a 2 1/2" hole saw.

My new one (which I've been avoiding using a hole saw with) will handle the occasional 7/8" hole as long as I go slow. I'm not gonna run out to the truck for a bigger drill to do one hole.


Sent from my new phone. Autocorrect may have changed stuff.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Kevin_Essiambre said:


> You say that, and I laugh because I burnt an M12 drill out with a 2 1/2" hole saw.
> 
> My new one (which I've been avoiding using a hole saw with) will handle the occasional 7/8" hole as long as I go slow. I'm not gonna run out to the truck for a bigger drill to do one hole.


Impact bro. Keep some Daredevil spade bits with you and the little impact will drill a 1" hole thru anything in seconds.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> That’s because you didn’t buy the fuel model.


Nope, it’s the difference in blade travel. Fuel has nothing to do with it.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> Impact bro. Keep some Daredevil spade bits with you and the little impact will drill a 1" hole thru anything in seconds.


You drill holes with an M12 impact?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> Nope, it’s the difference in blade travel. Fuel has nothing to do with it.


Fuel has EVERYTHING to do with it. The non Fuel M12 hackzall is for dinky work like when someone is too lazy to cut drywall with a jabsaw. The Fuel M12 hackzall is a powerful tool.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> Fuel has EVERYTHING to do with it. The non Fuel M12 hackzall is for dinky work like when someone is too lazy to cut drywall with a jabsaw. The Fuel M12 hackzall is a powerful tool.


You obviously have never owned an M18 Hackzall.

An M12 could have all the power of a corded Sawzall but with a 1/2” stroke it won’t do much.

Fuel isn’t the magic answer for everything.


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## zac (May 11, 2009)

HackWork said:


> Fuel has EVERYTHING to do with it. The non Fuel M12 hackzall is for dinky work like when someone is too lazy to cut drywall with a jabsaw. The Fuel M12 hackzall is a powerful tool.


The m12 fuel hackzall is almost the same size as the m18 non fuel with a ⅛" less stroke. I'd rather go with the m18 if I have to choose. Having the M12 fuel is great if you want to stay with one battery platform. 
My m12 non fuel hackzawl is great for trench and slab on grade work. 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> You obviously have never owned an M18 Hackzall.


 I used one quite a bit.



> An M12 could have all the power of a corded Sawzall but with a 1/2” stroke it won’t do much.


 It does a lot. It works great.



> Fuel isn’t the magic answer for everything.


 No, but it is a very big difference in most situations.

An extra 1/4" of L.O.S. isn't magic either.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

zac said:


> The m12 fuel hackzall is almost the same size as the m18 non fuel


That same thing could be said for the impact guns, the M12 isn't much smaller than the M18. But people still love the M12 because the small size and less weight helps. And the smaller and lighter battery also makes a difference.


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## zac (May 11, 2009)

HackWork said:


> That same thing could be said for the impact guns, the M12 isn't much smaller than the M18. But people still love the M12 because the small size and less weight helps. And the smaller and lighter battery also makes a difference.


Actually the m18 is smaller then the m12..... it's the battery that make the m12 better for tight locations. 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

I'm switching to Ryobi because my hero JoeSparky uses it.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

zac said:


> Actually the m18 is smaller then the m12..... it's the battery that make the m12 better for tight locations.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


It depends what dimension you are talking about. But either way, it goes along with my point about not all M12 tools being much smaller than M18, but still being very useful.


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## zac (May 11, 2009)

HackWork said:


> It depends what dimension you are talking about. But either way, it goes along with my point about not all M12 tools being much smaller than M18, but still being very useful.


Some yes, drill sawzawl, vacuum no. 
I actually use the m12 platform (except vacuum) for about 90% of the work I do. 


Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

zac said:


> Some yes, drill sawzawl, vacuum no.


I don't care for the M12 drill much, I never used the M12 vacuum and wouldn't ever even try it. But the M12 Fuel Hackzall is awesome. It completely replaced all my sawzall use. If I need something bigger than it, then it's time to break out the 120V Super Sawzall, like when I need to cut an exhaust hole thru an thick old house.


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## JoeSparky (Mar 25, 2010)

MTW said:


> I'm switching to Ryobi because my hero JoeSparky uses it.



:clap::clap::clap::clap:


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> I used one quite a bit.
> 
> It does a lot. It works great.
> 
> ...


You’re funny...like a clown.

If blade travel doesn’t mean anything, why aren’t all reciprocating saws 1/2”?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> If blade travel doesn’t mean anything, why aren’t all reciprocating saws 1/2”?


I never said that it doesn't mean anything. You are being dishonest yet again. I said "An extra 1/4" of L.O.S. isn't magic either."

The tiny little difference between the length of stroke in those 2 tools does not make that much of a difference, it is not as important as you are making it out to be. There are many other factors that all add up to a final result.

EDIT: Also, zac was right, it's only 1/8" difference in the LOS. The M12 Fuel is 5/8".


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> I never said that it doesn't mean anything. You are being dishonest yet again. I said "An extra 1/4" of L.O.S. isn't magic either."
> 
> The tiny little difference between the length of stroke in those 2 tools does not make that much of a difference, it is not as important as you are making it out to be. There are many other factors that all add up to a final result.
> 
> EDIT: Also, zac was right, it's only 1/8" difference in the LOS. The M12 Fuel is 5/8".


Dishonest? 

What a clown.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> Dishonest?
> 
> What a clown.


Yes, when you accuse me of saying something that I didn’t say, that’s dishonest.

You can call me all the names that you want, it’s not going to change the fact that the 1/8” difference in length of stroke does not make a big difference in the actual tool performance. And the M12 fuel hackzall is an awesome tool.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

I'm not buying much new stuff lately, but the M12 band saw sounds like it's worth buying.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

hackwork said:


> and the m12 fuel hackzall is an awesome toy.


fify


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

I have the original brushed M18 hackzall and it's one of the best tools I have, I don't see the need to upgrade to the Fuel model since I only use it for cutting pipe and the occasional piece of wood out of the way. Anything more demands a corded bandsaw or sawzall.


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## JoeSparky (Mar 25, 2010)

Had to break out the tire iron. The M12 didn't quite have the torque to change my tire:wink:


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## zac (May 11, 2009)

MTW said:


> I have the original brushed M18 hackzall and it's one of the best tools I have, I don't see the need to upgrade to the Fuel model since I only use it for cutting pipe and the occasional piece of wood out of the way. Anything more demands a corded bandsaw or sawzall.


I have that one two and it's done me good. 
When I'm doing heavy demo I bust out my sawzawl and again, is a noticeable difference. 
What's a cord?

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I have to say, that M18 Fuel Sawzall looks like a beast. I’ve never actually seen one in real life though.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

JoeSparky said:


> Had to break out the tire iron. The M12 didn't quite have the torque to change my tire:wink:


1200 inch pounds of torque is equal to 100 foot pounds of torque. I assume those lugs are 110 foot pounds?


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## JoeSparky (Mar 25, 2010)

HackWork said:


> 1200 inch pounds of torque is equal to 100 foot pounds of torque. I assume those lugs are 110 foot pounds?


IDK. The post was kind of a joke. No impact driver I own will take those off. Not even the Ryobi:vs_laugh: Maybe I should buy the M18 Fuel Surge One Key for changing tires :no:
Seriously, though. I break them free with a lug wrench and zip them off with whichever impact I put my hands on 1st.


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## Kevin (Feb 14, 2017)

MTW said:


> I'm not buying much new stuff lately, but the M12 band saw sounds like it's worth buying.


It is if you do conduit alot.

I've used it to cut other stuff too. Wire mold, plastic, angle iron, bolts, plastic connectors.

Cutting bolts with it is actually pretty safe. Try doing the same with a haxzall and itll take your fingers off.

Sent from my new phone. Autocorrect may have changed stuff.


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## catsparky1 (Sep 24, 2013)

I used to carry the M18 fuel impact with the slim battery with my tools . The M12 fuel surge has replaced it . Its light . Its powerful and the battery last for days . 

M12 has its place . Our low volt side has M12 for almost all the work they do and they have no complaints . M12 works great for most daily work . M18 is for the more hardcore production work . I use both and if you know when to use the M12 tools they are great .


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I have an M18 impact with I believe a 1/2 or 3/4 square drive that will likely work on those lugnuts. Works on pole bases.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

nrp3 said:


> I have an M18 impact with I believe a 1/2 or 3/4 square drive that will likely work on those lugnuts. Works on pole bases.


Impact wrench.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

99cents said:


> Impact wrench.


Bought that to get the nuts off generator flywheels mostly.


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