# 1960's (?) Square D contactor



## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

Yep, those 8500’s and 709 AB and 3 star CH, built to last by slide rule engineers. They designed them with the material needed, then added a little more in case they overlooked something. 
Don’t get me going on IEC Euro junk.


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

Yepper, built like a brick siht house. Unocal has some Westinghouse switch gear from the 30's still in operation. They even have some large gate valves with swastika's on them that were "surplus" from German submarines.
They just don't build stuff like they used to.


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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

Damn, those contacts still look good on that! 

It's amazing how long they last when they are built for reliability.

I'd be tempted to throw power to the coil just to see if it still pulls in.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

I weighed it today - 11.6 pounds.  I knew it felt heavy but I wasn't expecting it to weigh that much. Again, it really is a shame that stuff is not made like this anymore.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

MTW said:


> I weighed it today - 11.6 pounds.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


how true, today stuff is engineered to have a fail date, almost like fruit. 

Pull an old school panel back box off the wall, things are heavier than he.., nothing close to the junk we install today.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

MTW said:


> I weighed it today - 11.6 pounds.  I knew it felt heavy but I wasn't expecting it to weigh that much. Again, it really is a shame that stuff is not made like this anymore.



Its all about cost to build stuff like this.
Unlike most ET members and many electricians, I have zero issue with IEC starters and user interface like PB's, pilot lights, ect....
Square D and AB and others all have IEC lines of products. They have them for a reason. Cost and size come to mind. What took a floor mount cabinet back then, works with a much smaller enclosure today.

Actual size being the biggest positive for me along with din rail mounting.



Check the cost of a NEMA 5 starter vs an IEC rated the same current and HP. Its easy to see why people buy them and use them.


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## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

By the way, because the line and load terminals are on the top, that's actually a lighting or heating contactor, that's why it doesn't have overloads on it. 

The 8502's are still available, but in the mid 1960's Square D went away from the VLGD concept (Vertical Lift, Gravity Dropout) and changed to their "Type S" design that uses a "bell crank" mechanism so that the coil operates on the horizontal plane, not vertical. It's still that way to this day. Their claim as to why they did it was because it was more reliable, but in reality it was to make the coil smaller since it doesn't have to overcome its own armature weight. The problem is, that redesign introduced another part that wears out.

A-B and the old Furnas (now Siemens) still use VLGD to this day because, as A-B puts it "gravity has yet to fail".

I've probably posted my feelings on IEC vs NEMA in here before, it's a long story so I won't bore you all with it. But the condensed version is that they each have their place. NEMA designs are geared toward the end user who has to live with it forever, IEC is geared toward OEMs that can't take up the space. NEMA is made to be applied by electricians without needing to consult an engineer and can be repaired in the field, IEC is made to be designed into a system by an engineer who can determine exactly how it will be used and long they need it to last, but must be tossed out once the contacts wear out.

_And yes, I know that most companies sell replacement contacts for IEC contactors here in North America, but the contactors were NEVER designed that way; in Europe they toss them out because the mechanical parts have worn out too. But customers here were used to replacing contacts, so they (IEC mfrs) knuckled under the NA market pressure in the 80s and released them for sale here._


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

John Valdes said:


> Its all about cost to build stuff like this.
> Unlike most ET members and many electricians, I have zero issue with IEC starters and user interface like PB's, pilot lights, ect....
> Square D and AB and others all have IEC lines of products. They have them for a reason. Cost and size come to mind. What took a floor mount cabinet back then, works with a much smaller enclosure today.
> 
> ...


Oh, I'm well aware of the reasons from my machine wiring days. On that note, when I had that job we rebuilt a few machines for GE's turbine division (Steam and gas). Guess what GE specs for their machine tool controls? NEMA. :biggrin: It was actually nice to do a few jobs with NEMA parts instead of the endless parade of IEC stuff we always used.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

JRaef said:


> By the way, because the line and load terminals are on the top, that's actually a lighting or heating contactor, that's why it doesn't have overloads on it.


Gee, ya don't say? I did title the tread "contactor" and not "motor starter" for a reason.


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## CTshockhazard (Aug 28, 2009)

joebanana said:


> They just don't build stuff like they used to.



OMFG, It just occurred to me _how_ _long_ we've been able to say that :sad:


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

I wasn't much for saving things, but if it fell into the category I called "cherry", I'd save stuff for a rainy day. I'd have probably saved this contactor too. 

Peter- did you happen to look it up and see if that's still a valid catalog number? If it is, I'm betting that's a 1300 dollar contactor, or better. I've seen that one before with aux sealing contacts.


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

CTshockhazard said:


> OMFG, It just occurred to me _how_ _long_ we've been able to say that :sad:


We may have been saying that at the time that contactor was installed!:biggrin:


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

MDShunk said:


> I wasn't much for saving things, but if it fell into the category I called "cherry", I'd save stuff for a rainy day. I'd have probably saved this contactor too.
> 
> Peter- did you happen to look it up and see if that's still a valid catalog number? If it is, I'm betting that's a 1300 dollar contactor, or better. I've seen that one before with aux sealing contacts.


I just did a quick ebay search and found a few used ones still selling for $200-300, but mostly the updated design ones come up. So, I'd say an new equivalent model in this range probably costs that much or more. This one does have the sealing contacts.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

readydave8 said:


> We may have been saying that at the time that contactor was installed!:biggrin:


One thing they probably didn't say was "I wonder if this contactor will be talked about on an internet electrician's forum someday."


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

I tend to save everything and my barn shows it, I saw your post and turned to my left and this was on the barn wall on a nail.


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

This is my main contactor for my RPC.


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## ksanders (Sep 7, 2018)

We replace ASCO 920’s from what we think are the 60’s and 70’s quite frequently.

It’s amazing how long some of the older stuff in in service.


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## Norcal (Mar 22, 2007)

The folks who restore old woodworking & metalworking machines go gaga over vintage motor starters the Brooks Stevens designed Cutler-Hammer art deco starters, A-B too, are prized items. 



Brooks Stevens was a industrial designer who in addition to the above items, created a number of well known logos for such companies as Miller Brewing, and Wear Ever Aluminum, and designed the Oscar Mayer Weinermobile. He was a huge proponent of planned obsolescence.


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## jelhill (Nov 11, 2018)

MTW said:


> I'm not one to save old stuff however I made an exception for this. It came from a building built in 1961 but I think was added later, but not much later. It was wired with TW and was labeled as serving an incincerator which was obviously removed long ago but they left this behind. It had no overloads because it was only being used single phase so presumably the motor had internal overloads.
> 
> This thing is so solidly built it could last another 100 years in service. I'm going to weight it on my postage scale later. It's a shame to think the NEMA standard is being replaced by garbage IEC stuff. It's one of the few remaining testaments to the way things used to be made.


I could not view your jpg’s for some reason. :sad: Can’t agree with you more about the IEC crap. Of course, you already know that I am an old school fossil. :biggrin:


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## jelhill (Nov 11, 2018)

ksanders said:


> We replace ASCO 920’s from what we think are the 60’s and 70’s quite frequently.
> 
> It’s amazing how long some of the older stuff in in service.



Like me?? :biggrin:


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## jelhill (Nov 11, 2018)

MTW said:


> Gee, ya don't say? I did title the tread "contactor" and not "motor starter" for a reason.


Hey! How did you pick out only part of his post to quote? I want to learn that neat trick!


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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

jelhill said:


> *I want to learn that neat trick!*



Press the "quote" button on the reply that you want to quote.


You will see their response written at the top of the text box you make your reply in.


Highlight/backspace/etc any of their written comments and sentences to pare it down to just what you want to quote.


Just like I did to yours...


You can also use the tools above the text box to bold, underline, etc.


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## jelhill (Nov 11, 2018)

Cow said:


> Press the "quote" button on the reply that you want to quote.
> 
> 
> You will see their response written at the top of the text box you make your reply in.
> ...



Cool! Many thanks! :thumbup:


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

jelhill said:


> I could not view your jpg’s for some reason. :sad: Can’t agree with you more about the IEC crap. Of course, you already know that I am an old school fossil. :biggrin:


It must have expired off of where I posted it. :sad:


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

MTW said:


> Gee, ya don't say? I did title the tread "contactor" and not "motor starter" for a reason.


You said motor in the very first post. :wink:


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## B-Nabs (Jun 4, 2014)

MTW said:


> Gee, ya don't say? I did title the tread "contactor" and not "motor starter" for a reason.


You also said this:



MTW said:


> It had no overloads because it was only being used single phase so presumably the motor had internal overloads.


So I don't think JRaef's comment was really deserving of your snark. 

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

John Valdes said:


> You said motor in the very first post. :wink:



This is true. But I think everyone understands that fractional horsepower motors contain internal overloads, no? Does every little thing have to be spelled out so the lowest common denominator can understand it?


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

MTW said:


> This is true. But I think everyone understands that fractional horsepower motors contain internal overloads, no? Does every little thing have to be spelled out so the lowest common denominator can understand it?


No not everyone. Most all three phase motors do not have thermal overloads and when they do they clearly mark the leads.
Just because you work residential does not mean we all do.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

John Valdes said:


> No not everyone. Most all three phase motors do not have thermal overloads and when they do they clearly mark the leads.
> Just because you work residential does not mean we all do.



Oh snap! Shots fired!


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## B-Nabs (Jun 4, 2014)

CoolWill said:


> Oh snap! Shots fired!


That's return fire. 

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

B-Nabs said:


> That's return fire.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk



I don't know... I guess... maybe... but still Oh Snap!


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