# Volkswagan



## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

How Germany Builds Twice As Many Cars As The U.S. While Paying Its Workers Twice As Much, and their unionized?

Volkswagen pays its workers at their SC ((USA) plant $15 an hour, than $20 after 3 years. 

Right to work state, Why don’t they go union?


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Why does someone who is so miserable not do the right thing and shampoo his hair with a shotgun?


----------



## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

360max said:


> How Germany Builds Twice As Many Cars As The U.S. While Paying Its Workers Twice As Much, and their unionized?
> 
> Volkswagen pays its workers at their SC ((USA) plant $15 an hour, than $20 after 3 years.
> 
> Right to work state, Why don’t they go union?


Maybe in Sc 15-20 an hour is a lot more than what they're used to seeing and maybe it goes alot further economically then it would in NY or NJ???

I am not saying these statements as facts as I'm asking.

If I am on to something , this could be areason they don't want to
risk trying to unionize and loosing a job like this...perhaps?


----------



## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

lighterup said:


> Maybe in Sc 15-20 an hour is a lot more than what they're used to seeing and maybe it goes alot further economically then it would in NY or NJ???
> 
> I am not saying these statements as facts as I'm asking.
> 
> ...


First off Ford Tier 1 starting rate at the Rouge plant, yep the F150 plant, is $12/hour for all crafts at least as of November 2018. Needless to say they're struggling to find skilled trades willing to work at that pay in downtown Detroit. And definitely union. So don't assume that the old automotive pay rates of $25-40/hour are today's rates because that ended for everybody union or not in 2009. And the union takes a bigger cut because it pays all the benefits now. Obummer really screwed the automotive workers permanently. No more $80k+ unskilled gravy jobs until retirement. And they don't pay 90% if the plant closes anymore.

Second SC is a heavily Scotch/Irish ancestry. The culture of self sufficiency and anti-organized anything is very strong. Basically it's the old South culture. Think South Jersey inland culture with crappy summer weather. Ever heard of a huge demonstration outside of college campuses in SC like you get in NY/NJ? No they don't complain, they just stop talking, get stoic, and refuse to talk to you. If a Southerner suddenly ignores you, look out because you did something wrong. That old myth about ******* beating up their wives and spending all their time drinking, smoking, and hunting is a myth. That's how they act in NY. Southerners have manners. Naturally since they hate people telling them what to do and belly aching about everything, they're naturally anti-union. Even trade unions are largely almost nonexistent. Don't get me wrong Southern ways of dealing with poor management doesn't always work but neither do unions. SC and NC are one the fastest growing regions in the country in terms of population, wages, education, the economy, jobs, you name it where populations in MI, NJ, and NY are shrinking. So if it was that bad the trend would be like it was a century ago when people were fleeing the South for jobs in MI, NJ, and NY.

Third yes it's cheaper to live in the South. Taxes are drastically lower. You can buy a much bigger house for the same money. Much less regulation. Much lower fuel taxes. All those things go into paying less for everything. Look on salary.com for the differences. The big reason is we missed out on the industrial revolution. So post civil war the economy was crap for nearly a century. In the North everybody was making tons if money so they were all too happy to spend it on various public works projects, bureacratic rules, pork barrel spending, etc. Every time some politician wanted to spend money and raise taxes on anything but the bare necessities in the South they were voted out. Fast forward 170 years later and we never had certain things so when the economy finally did pick up all the government corruption, graft, wasteful spending, burdensome regulation, and the high taxes that go with it never existed. It will probably take another hundred years to "catch up". Companies like VW, Honda, and Boeing to name a few know it so they come here.

They're not the only ones. Retirees are flocking here instead of Florida now. I moved to Georgia in 97 because I couldn't find work in MI. Every time I go looking for a job I can't find one in the North. All the job offers I ever got in the North were at least a 20-25% pay cut with lousy benefits. Even back in 2004 I was making around $65k and an automotive in the Detroit area offered $40k, lower than my starting pay in Georgia when I got out of school! In 2009 I got an offer for $65k in Milwaukee, same as I was making 5 years before then. Only time I ever got a good offer was for a plant on Long island but the cost of living was so sky high it was going to leave me making less so I passed for another "low pay" job in a southern town. So not only is it cheaper to live here but I don't see how anyone says the pay rates are lower. You have to be willing to move or drive a little, and pick jobs that have an element of skill and crappy work conditions to get high pay like anywhere but the pay is there. Coal miners in WV are hands down the highest paid skilled jobs without college in the Appalachians, often making over $100k while they poor mouth us about how bad they have it. Nobody else makes that kind of money except in cities in NJ, NY, and CA where just basic living costs $80k a year, but WV coal miners can buy a house for that much or less.

In addition most of the new plants like VW will simply close and wait for contract expiration then reopen nonunion and everybody knows it so if a plant goes union, they all lose their jobs. There is so much economic growth if there is bad management they just go some place else. Good and bad companies are struggling to find help but bad ones can't keep them. We just don't need unions right now.

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk


----------



## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

Unionization has become too formal and easy to counter. Old unions were a collective action by the community, not the "insurance" model we have today. Most modern union leaders fear democratic unionism because their power and influence is depleted.

The teachers strikes that happened these past years were majority non-union in deeply conservative right to work states. But they accomplished more than any formal teachers unions could have ever hoped for despite their dues supported salaries.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

360max said:


> How Germany Builds Twice As Many Cars As The U.S. While Paying Its Workers Twice As Much, and their unionized?
> 
> Volkswagen pays its workers at their SC ((USA) plant $15 an hour, than $20 after 3 years.
> 
> Right to work state, Why don’t they go union?


Do you wear a helmet and a diaper?


----------



## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

paulengr said:


> First off Ford Tier 1 starting rate at the Rouge plant, yep the F150 plant, is $12/hour for all crafts at least as of November 2018. Needless to say they're struggling to find skilled trades willing to work at that pay in downtown Detroit. And definitely union. So don't assume that the old automotive pay rates of $25-40/hour are today's rates because that ended for everybody union or not in 2009. And the union takes a bigger cut because it pays all the benefits now. Obummer really screwed the automotive workers permanently. No more $80k+ unskilled gravy jobs until retirement. And they don't pay 90% if the plant closes anymore.
> 
> Second SC is a heavily Scotch/Irish ancestry. The culture of self sufficiency and anti-organized anything is very strong. Basically it's the old South culture. Think South Jersey inland culture with crappy summer weather. Ever heard of a huge demonstration outside of college campuses in SC like you get in NY/NJ? No they don't complain, they just stop talking, get stoic, and refuse to talk to you. If a Southerner suddenly ignores you, look out because you did something wrong. That old myth about ******* beating up their wives and spending all their time drinking, smoking, and hunting is a myth. That's how they act in NY. Southerners have manners. Naturally since they hate people telling them what to do and belly aching about everything, they're naturally anti-union. Even trade unions are largely almost nonexistent. Don't get me wrong Southern ways of dealing with poor management doesn't always work but neither do unions. SC and NC are one the fastest growing regions in the country in terms of population, wages, education, the economy, jobs, you name it where populations in MI, NJ, and NY are shrinking. So if it was that bad the trend would be like it was a century ago when people were fleeing the South for jobs in MI, NJ, and NY.
> 
> ...


Yeah I've been in the USA my whole life too.


----------



## Unionpride277 (Oct 31, 2018)

TGGT said:


> Unionization has become too formal and easy to counter. Old unions were a collective action by the community, not the "insurance" model we have today. Most modern union leaders fear democratic unionism because their power and influence is depleted.
> 
> The teachers strikes that happened these past years were majority non-union in deeply conservative right to work states. But they accomplished more than any formal teachers unions could have ever hoped for despite their dues supported salaries.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


What states did this take place ?
I love to hear when workers come together through solidarity and fight for fair wages, benefits, pensions etc .

And the fact they were able to negotiate without a union or collective bargaining , is impressive 

And it took a lot of balls to go on strike without the unions support .

Without a strike fund , or representation . ✊🏼✊🏼✊🏼✊🏼


----------



## Unionpride277 (Oct 31, 2018)

They have tried to unionize the plants in sc Honda , vw etc 

The companies also do scare tactics aswell to help keep the employees scared by saying they will lose their jobs and the plant will shutdown etc .

Sc is extremely hard to organize sometimes you can’t teach an old dog new tricks .

I belive it was the Honda plant I’n sc that got voted down recently, I watched a documentary on it , a lot of scare tactics were used but at the end of the day if they voted no it’s up to the workers and maybe they don’t need a union contract .

Imo they were scared of the company moving locations or being fired if organized , which is illegal but the workers spoke .


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

360max said:


> How Germany Builds Twice As Many Cars As The U.S. While Paying Its Workers Twice As Much, and their unionized?
> 
> Volkswagen pays its workers at their SC ((USA) plant $15 an hour, than $20 after 3 years.
> 
> Right to work state, Why don’t they go union?


Hey dummy, are you aware that VW produces most of their lineup for the North American market in Mexico City, right? No, of course you didn't know that.


----------



## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

Many people retire FROM Florida and move to NC, SC.


Also look at property tax millage rates. Aren't they something like 30 mils in NY? They're about 7 here and I think 6 in SC.


Then all your other taxes like fuel, tangible property, even cigarettes are like $15/ pack in NY? I smoke Miami specials for $1.30/ pack, tax included! Marlboros here are around $5 I think.


Horrible government and rampant corruption in government is the reason NY is so expensive. With a greater population density government should be more efficient, and it's the inverse thereof. Go figure.


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

MikeFL said:


> Many people retire FROM Florida and move to NC, SC.
> 
> 
> Also look at property tax millage rates. Aren't they something like 30 mils in NY? They're about 7 here and I think 6 in SC.
> ...


The mill rate here is around 22 on average, I'm a few states away from NY but still in the northeast. It's just as corrupt and expensive as NY and NJ. Anyone with the means to leave is doing so.


----------



## Mulder (Sep 11, 2010)

360max said:


> How Germany Builds Twice As Many Cars As The U.S. While Paying Its Workers Twice As Much, and their unionized?
> 
> Volkswagen pays its workers at their SC ((USA) plant $15 an hour, than $20 after 3 years.
> 
> Right to work state, Why don’t they go union?


WTF are you talking about? The US produces twice as many cars as Germany. This is regardless of what country the company is based in. A car produced by Volkswagon at a plant in US is made in the US.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_motor_vehicle_production


----------



## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

Unionpride277 said:


> What states did this take place ?
> I love to hear when workers come together through solidarity and fight for fair wages, benefits, pensions etc .
> 
> And the fact they were able to negotiate without a union or collective bargaining , is impressive
> ...


Non-union workers have a protected right to strike under the NLRA. The use of a traditional established union to be the sole bargaining representative has been used against workers as a leash. Wildcat or "illegal/unsanctioned" strikes can be used against members that participate in them, and open the union to liable damages. That's why the IBEW would sooner discipline its members than stand up to a bad employer.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


----------



## jbfan (Jan 22, 2007)

Lets see. VW is located in TN, BMW is located in SC. KIA is located in GA, Mercedes is located in AL and SC.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_automotive_assembly_plants_in_the_United_States


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

You know the solution to the whole problem would be if all the entire all of em Democrats in the USA just lined themselves up in front of a big trench and jumped into it so that the dozer's could push the sand back in would be the answer. Then there would not be any blue states standing in the way of the poor distressed auto workers down south down there, from starting unions. Right now they can't because the auto factory owners have great examples of the hell of highly unionized states such as California, New York, Michigan, Missouri and on and on have become. So they won't allow any more unions to come in. But like I'm saying ... if all the democrats just committed suicide all at once , then there wouldn't be no California, No New York, No Michigan, No Missouri, No Blue states at all anymore because the democrats all did their civic duty and off'ed themselves. What a glorious day for the new workers unions that would be. This would solve so many problems, the remaining Republicans would all buy themselves a new union made American Car just to celebrate their new fortunes. 

What a proud day. Democrats , please go kill yourselves. For the children. 
All of you. For the children. Amen.


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)




----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)




----------



## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

macmikeman said:


>


.....which was has the law degree?

And which one married her grandfather?


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)




----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)




----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)




----------



## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

Unionpride277 said:


> They have tried to unionize the plants in sc Honda , vw etc
> 
> The companies also do scare tactics aswell to help keep the employees scared by saying they will lose their jobs and the plant will shutdown etc .
> 
> ...


I suspect your dead on with this. I think this may be true all up & down Appalachia...H**l , It's true here in Ohio. Nobody wants to risk their livelyhood (in this day and age) to jump into bed over politics (unions politics)


----------



## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

MikeFL said:


> Many people retire FROM Florida and move to NC, SC.
> 
> 
> Also look at property tax millage rates. Aren't they something like 30 mils in NY? They're about 7 here and I think 6 in SC.
> ...


This is along the lines of what I suggested in post #3 (not as detailed).
Paulengr quoted me (post#4) and I think he ripped me a new azz for it.
:vs_whistle:


----------



## splatz (May 23, 2015)

paulengr said:


> There is so much economic growth if there is bad management they just go some place else. Good and bad companies are struggling to find help but bad ones can't keep them. *We just don't need unions right now.*


This is the worst short-sighted mistake to make. 

This is like saying it's noon, we just don't need street lights right now. Night will fall. 

You could point to lots of growth booms around the country, it's not a new thing. It's always temporary. 

When things tighten up - and they always do - without the union protection in place, the company will of course take it out of the hide of the work force. 

The best time to organize is when times are good.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

paulengr is insane. He is the guy who says that IBEW members in NY/NJ make the equivalent of $12/hr.

All of them that I know live in $800K houses and put their wives in Range Rovers, that's kinda hard on $12/hr.


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Let me get this straight. This dimwit starts a thread complaining about auto workers in southern states while he lives in a northern state making union pay? If he really cared so much about this, he would move down south and advocate for them. This is why this thread is an epic troll fail.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

macmikeman said:


>


How many of those languages does she speak fluently? Fanboys sure like to twist reality.


----------



## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

MTW said:


> Let me get this straight. This dimwit starts a thread complaining about auto workers in southern states while he lives in a northern state making union pay? If he really cared so much about this, he would move down south and advocate for them. This is why this thread is an epic troll fail.


nice thread troll attempt . Volkswagen rep was quoted saying it happens here because they can get waist with it, in Germany that bird wouldn’t fly.


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

99cents said:


> How many of those languages does she speak fluently? Fanboys sure like to twist reality.


Five of them. Canadians sure like to twist reality. We understand. You live in hell , we feel sorry for you, but that's just how it is. You ain't coming down here so get used to it. Buck up. Drink more Molson's. And remember that you still got those wonderful white Canadian women who are actually smarter then the men of your country to keep you warm on frozen stiff nights.


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

360max said:


> nice thread troll attempt . Volkswagen rep was quoted saying it happens here because they can get waist with it, in Germany that bird wouldn’t fly.


You're lecturing us about Volkswagen when you have a Hilti avatar? :vs_laugh::vs_laugh::vs_laugh::vs_laugh::vs_laugh: You know, that company that makes their overpriced tools in Europe and now China. :vs_laugh::vs_laugh:

You really are a joke.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

360max said:


> nice thread troll attempt .


So he is trying to troll your troll thread? Is that a paradox? Will that rip open the stitches of time? :surprise:


----------



## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

Can't spell Volkswagen?


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

macmikeman said:


> Five of them. Canadians sure like to twist reality. We understand. You live in hell , we feel sorry for you, but that's just how it is. You ain't coming down here so get used to it. Buck up. Drink more Molson's. And remember that you still got those wonderful white Canadian women who are actually smarter then the men of your country to keep you warm on frozen stiff nights.


Except she isn’t fluent in five languages.


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

99cents said:


> Except she isn’t fluent in five languages.


If Donald would be so kind as to let me spend an hour with her , I'd have her speaking assholes , elbow's and shoe soles. .........


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

macmikeman said:


> If Donald would be so kind as to let me spend an hour with her , I'd have her speaking assholes , elbow's and shoe soles. .........


She hasn’t gone near Trump since her son was born so why would she be interested in you?


----------



## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

Unions really need to decouple themselves from politicians. There is a reason there are so many republicans in our local, they recognize the better wages and benefits. Democrats and Republicans should be pandering to a large voting bloc of organized working people. Instead we've become hyper partisan and limited in membership and power. And by "we" I speak of the leadership.

My representatives didn't even know what the National Labor Relations Act was, or the difference between right to work and at will employment.

One of the founding members of the IBEW Henry Miller was from Texas of all places. Good compensation, dignity, safe working conditions usually transcend political views. We really need to get back to basics.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


----------



## Apelectric (Dec 6, 2017)

TGGT said:


> Unions really need to decouple themselves from politicians. Good compensation, dignity, safe working conditions usually transcend political views. We really need to get back to basics.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


Couldn't agree more. When either party knows they will get votes from a group no matter what, they stop advocating for them.


----------



## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

HackWork said:


> paulengr is insane. He is the guy who says that IBEW members in NY/NJ make the equivalent of $12/hr.
> 
> All of them that I know live in $800K houses and put their wives in Range Rovers, that's kinda hard on $12/hr.


Unless your referring to owners, an $800,000 house seems a bit much for someone making $55 an hour in the check.


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Apelectric said:


> Couldn't agree more. When either party knows they will get votes from a group no matter what, they stop advocating for them.


I have said this for years, why would Republicans give a crap about unions when 97% of union dollars go to the Democrats.

Spread that wealth around and see how many votes you buy!


----------



## Chops146 (Aug 26, 2018)

brian john said:


> I have said this for years, why would Republicans give a crap about unions when 97% of union dollars go to the Democrats.
> 
> Spread that wealth around and see how many votes you buy!


Here in Illinois, we used to do that (best government money can buy). 10 years ago we had 2-3 dozen solid labour Republicans. Now we have 1. The RNC has adopted an unofficial RTW plank imo and that has put many union members in a position of vote for those who ignore us or those who want to destroy us. I think this is exactly why Gompers didn't want us, as a movement, to throw in with any political party.


----------



## Chops146 (Aug 26, 2018)

macmikeman said:


> You know the solution to the whole problem would be if all the entire all of em Democrats in the USA just lined themselves up in front of a big trench and jumped into it so that the dozer's could push the sand back in would be the answer. Then there would not be any blue states standing in the way of the poor distressed auto workers down south down there, from starting unions. Right now they can't because the auto factory owners have great examples of the hell of highly unionized states such as California, New York, Michigan, Missouri and on and on have become. So they won't allow any more unions to come in. But like I'm saying ... if all the democrats just committed suicide all at once , then there wouldn't be no California, No New York, No Michigan, No Missouri, No Blue states at all anymore because the democrats all did their civic duty and off'ed themselves. What a glorious day for the new workers unions that would be. This would solve so many problems, the remaining Republicans would all buy themselves a new union made American Car just to celebrate their new fortunes.
> 
> What a proud day. Democrats , please go kill yourselves. For the children.
> All of you. For the children. Amen.


You have a (wonderfully snarky) point here. Our "leaders" in the labour movement are devoted Democrats. They're just another level of rich politician selling us down the river. As workers, I think we need to realize that no one is going to look out for our interests but us. Hold their feet to the fire.


----------

