# Improve efficency on service upgrade - residential



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Patton said:


> Hello
> 
> I'm looking for input on others process or method for upgrading a residential service. Specifically upgrading to a 200A service from a lesser sized service. I'm off on my own now and have only been getting calls for brand new services and from the meter in change outs. So I'm asking what's the best way to replace everything from the weather head in without swiss cheesing the home owners exterior and minimizing down time for their electrical service. In my area the poco makes the connection after the inspector gives the thumbs up. Just looking for some tips.


By myself I'll pull the meter rip out the old panel and install the new one trace out the circuits and mark them in the new panel do the water main ground and if there is still time left I'll drive my ground rods.

Then the next day I'll do the outside work, here we do the cutover . Then call in for the inspector sometimes they'll come the next day sometimes it's next week.

When I'm finished with the outside I'll double check everything and get the check.


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## Patton (Dec 2, 2012)

Here our poco wants to do the connection. Sadly.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Patton said:


> Here our poco wants to do the connection. Sadly.


Here they're not much on customer service.


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## Patton (Dec 2, 2012)

Same here


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Patton said:


> Same here


BTW,,Welcome Aboard....:thumbsup:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I think a service change is best done with a helper. Someone to run the GEC's, drive the ground rods, help out with identifying circuits (that saves a LOT of time and energy), etc. I usually like to install the meter pan and riser first thing so I could reconnect the drop early and take temp power out of the meter pan. That's a good time to have the helper demo the old panel. A halfway decent first year level helper could do these things. $20/hr cash, add that $160 onto the top of the service change price and you're golden.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

4 Monsters and a box of twinkies. Ain't nobody got time for coffee and lunch break!


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## 3xdad (Jan 25, 2011)

You guys ever feel like your in a room with a bunch of other monkeys with keyboards racing to divulge the cream of the crop, tried and true techniques to just anybody?

No offense OP, i just had that feeling. It's gone now. i started with no posts also, but back then these guys made ya work for the answers.:laughing:


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## pistol pete (Jul 4, 2011)

I'm sorry but the amount of people on here that think a swap out is a two day gig kill me ...I usally do the outside first then the inside ... less to clean up from cutting in a new panel... then the inside work...but then again I've only done a few all alone


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

Going_Commando said:


> 4 Monsters and a box of twinkies. Ain't nobody got time for coffee and lunch break!


where ya gettin the twinkies?:laughing:


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

im guessing you guys dont have to put new services where the old one was?that usually is more involved in time:whistling2:


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

If you really want to save time and do it in one day you need to take the interior of the panel out....


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

:001_huh:


sbrn33 said:


> If you really want to save time and do it in one day you need to take the interior of the panel out....


:001_huh:


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

The more you do the easier and more efficient it gets. I think you should always be trying to improve your methods.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

papaotis said:


> im guessing you guys dont have to put new services where the old one was?that usually is more involved in time:whistling2:


It's almost always in the same position, that helps with covering the holes too. The old service is usually pretty easy to demo.


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

sorry hax, i keep forgetting you guys can use se without a mast. deffinetly makes the whole change easier


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## Sparky J (May 17, 2011)

pistol pete said:


> I'm sorry but the amount of people on here that think a swap out is a two day gig kill me ...I usally do the outside first then the inside ... less to clean up from cutting in a new panel... then the inside work...but then again I've only done a few all alone


Hey man it is what it is... Not all but I do a lot in 2 days, when I was younger (btw I'm not that old now) and more gung-ho I'd bang them out in a day. But now I usually just bid them at 2 or more if a rats nest and if I'm done sooner more profit for me.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

papaotis said:


> sorry hax, i keep forgetting you guys can use se without a mast. deffinetly makes the whole change easier


I usually use PVC for the riser. Most houses around here are 2-story so you don't see many masts.


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## ButcherSlayer (Oct 4, 2013)

HackWork said:


> I think a service change is best done with a helper. Someone to run the GEC's, drive the ground rods, help out with identifying circuits (that saves a LOT of time and energy), etc. I usually like to install the meter pan and riser first thing so I could reconnect the drop early and take temp power out of the meter pan. That's a good time to have the helper demo the old panel. A halfway decent first year level helper could do these things. $20/hr cash, add that $160 onto the top of the service change price and you're golden.


Holly crap hack. U pay ur helper 20 an hr??


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

ButcherSlayer said:


> Holly crap hack. U pay ur helper 20 an hr??


Yeah, I'm a pushover. It's not solid work tho.


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## ButcherSlayer (Oct 4, 2013)

HackWork said:


> Yeah, I'm a pushover. It's not solid work tho.


Damn he's lucky where you when I first started a couple years ago haha. All I get us cheap contractors that wanna keep me in 12 range doing everything a tech does. Unbelievable :laughing:


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Patton said:


> Hello
> 
> I'm looking for input on others process or method for upgrading a residential service. Specifically upgrading to a 200A service from a lesser sized service. I'm off on my own now and have only been getting calls for brand new services and from the meter in change outs. So I'm asking what's the best way to replace everything from the weather head in without swiss cheesing the home owners exterior and minimizing down time for their electrical service. In my area the poco makes the connection after the inspector gives the thumbs up. Just looking for some tips.


It's very situational, as not all services , even simple 100A ones, are alike Patton

One thing i've grown fond of are meter/mains

Many of my swap outs include the outside riser and/or seu _(again, situational) _being ready to energize by noon incorporating them

The poco does their thing, we can tap off the main (instead of the drop :no for lights in the basement....

etc etc....

~CS~


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## Bootss (Dec 30, 2011)

Concentrate on doing clean and neat work and selling your service changes for top dollars and you'll be just fine.


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## 20year man (Jul 9, 2013)

What is this two day service change stuff. With qualified help it take 5hrs. By myself. .8.5hrs ..I only piece meal IF other components are relatively new. And even at that the price is still the same cause you still have to disconnect alot


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

I had one the other day. 7 hrs from diagnosis of burning metersocket clip on the poco side of the metermain can which had a locking ring on it, to the HD store for another meter main, new main breaker , and various sundry parts. Then back to job, whip out the replacement, and then sit on my butt reading ET on the Ipad for hours waiting for Poco to return and re-hook it up. We are not allowed to make the connections for them.


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## SparkyDino (Sep 23, 2013)

If you can put the new meter & riser right next to the old one, upgrade everything then jumper between the 2 meters.

then new service is on, poco can come whenever they want to transfer from one riser to the other.

me personally, I splice the new drip loop to poco with split bolts & let them cut em off when they come out to do their work.


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## Mshow1323 (Jun 9, 2012)

SparkyDino said:


> If you can put the new meter & riser right next to the old one, upgrade everything then jumper between the 2 meters.
> 
> then new service is on, poco can come whenever they want to transfer from one riser to the other.
> 
> me personally, I splice the new drip loop to poco with split bolts & let them cut em off when they come out to do their work.



Sounds like a fellow Chicagoan to me!


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## pistol pete (Jul 4, 2011)

And then who fixes the siding ? The hole from the old pipe /seu going in?


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## denny3992 (Jul 12, 2010)

Prep..is key.. Take accurate measurement at estimate...
At shop Wire weatherhead, seu and mb( all wired just screw fast when on site ) i even strip wires goin into htaps 

Wire seu into panel and put in connectors, grnd wire for rod, attach to plywood, install gfi rcpt( all done at shop)

Cuts time onsite and can be done in warm shop!

Always have extra mtl on van...
Lugs, brkrs,jboxes, straps 

Having to run for
Mtl cuz u forgot straps or a connector sucks!


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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

We do it with two guys in one day. I've never had a two day service change.

I'll usually start by tearing apart the panel inside labeling while he'll tear the mast down, meterbase, etc. Then both of us put it back together. New rigid mast and meterbase, etc. We'll get the service entrance wiring close to finished and then I'll call for a meterbase inspection and reconnect from the power company. I'll finish landing the branch circuits while the helper is digging the ditch and driving the rods. And/or running a #4 to the cold water/gas. 

We used to just call for a final when completely finished but now our city inspector wants to see the inside of the meterbase before the power company energizes it and locks it up. Our state inspector will still let us do that though.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

denny3992 said:


> Prep..is key.. Take accurate measurement at estimate...
> At shop Wire weatherhead, seu and mb( all wired just screw fast when on site ) i even strip wires goin into htaps
> 
> Wire seu into panel and put in connectors, grnd wire for rod, attach to plywood, install gfi rcpt( all done at shop)
> ...


Yeah, pre-fabbing everything at the shop (when you can) helps a lot. 

I often make 2" PVC service risers at the shop, my longest to date is 12'. I build the entire thing from the weatherhead down to the meterpan. I wire it all up inside the meterpan, phase the wires, and even put the connectors on the ends ready to be spliced to the PoCo wiring. 

It's nice because you can pull the old riser off and install the new meter and riser and splice it in within the first hour. 

I did this one a long time ago, this is about 9' if I remember correctly:


View attachment 30603



Then you take temp power out of the meter pan while doing the rest of the service. You can put the ladder away. everything up there is done at the very beginning.


View attachment 30605



I've used these same pictures a crapload of times, I gotta start taking pictures of the current stuff I do.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

HackWork said:


> I did this one a long time ago, this is about 9' if I remember correctly:
> 
> 
> View attachment 30603


What a Hack, B4T has told us that candy cane style taping is no good.


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## SparkyDino (Sep 23, 2013)

pistol pete said:


> And then who fixes the siding ? The hole from the old pipe /seu going in?


A siding guy or carpenter maybe if it's needed?

I don't do drywall either, and I have to open walls and ceilings sometimes. nor do I do the painting.

I only mentioned building a new service next to the old one because sometimes it's the way to go. the customer is told ahead of time to have someone fix the siding when I'm done, just like they are told to get a drywall/paint contractor to fix the walls when I'm done.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

BBQ said:


> What a Hack, B4T has told us that candy cane style taping is no good.


Check the edit, I did it nicer inside the meter pan :laughing:

Even if the tape comes off, is it really hard for anyone who is touching the connector to figure out which one is the neutral? :thumbup:


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## SparkyDino (Sep 23, 2013)

HackWork said:


> Yeah, pre-fabbing everything at the shop (when you can) helps a lot.
> 
> I often make 2" PVC service risers at the shop, my longest to date is 12'. I build the entire thing from the weatherhead down to the meterpan. I wire it all up inside the meterpan, phase the wires, and even put the connectors on the ends ready to be spliced to the PoCo wiring.
> 
> ...




I do the same thing sometimes, but I use real pipe :laughing:

And I ain't Santa so I don't do candy canes.

Thanks for the pics, I like pictures :thumbup:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

HackWork said:


> Check the edit, I did it nicer inside the meter pan :laughing:
> 
> Even if the tape comes off, is it really hard for anyone who is touching the connector to figure out which one is the neutral? :thumbup:


You mean the black wire connecting to the bare wire could be a hint?


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## rrolleston (Mar 6, 2012)

We use URD for the overhead services and the yellow line on the stepped down neutral is enough of an indicator.


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## Derek1 (Mar 27, 2013)

20year man said:


> What is this two day service change stuff. With qualified help it take 5hrs. By myself. .8.5hrs ..I only piece meal IF other components are relatively new. And even at that the price is still the same cause you still have to disconnect alot


Geez, ur fast.

It typically takes me roughly a day & a half, and that's with an apprentice.
That's everything though, no prefab, The first time I see the job is when I show up to do the job. The 1 1/2 days also takes into account getting the material, correctly labeling the panel, adding smoke alarms if needed, and adding GFI's if needed, and adding disconnects if needed, and making sure things like the furnace are on their own circuit, a lot of little things that chew up time.


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## powerhouse pete (Nov 13, 2013)

Patton said:


> Hello I'm looking for input on others process or method for upgrading a residential service. Specifically upgrading to a 200A service from a lesser sized service. I'm off on my own now and have only been getting calls for brand new services and from the meter in change outs. So I'm asking what's the best way to replace everything from the weather head in without swiss cheesing the home owners exterior and minimizing down time for their electrical service. In my area the poco makes the connection after the inspector gives the thumbs up. Just looking for some tips.


your speed will come with experience I'm doing electric for 22 years I've never had a service take me and a helper more than five hours that's changing everything outside new panel labeling and running new water ground. Start on the outside cut your taps on your way down take the service down I cut the feeder going to the panel flush with the wall then go downstairs pull your panel off putting it back shove your feeders in then mount your meter pan then the top half then do the panel my average service takes me and a helper 3 hours


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

powerhouse pete said:


> your speed will come with experience I'm doing electric for 22 years I've never had a service take me and a helper more than five hours that's changing everything outside new panel labeling and running new water ground. Start on the outside cut your taps on your way down take the service down I cut the feeder going to the panel flush with the wall then go downstairs pull your panel off putting it back shove your feeders in then mount your meter pan then the top half then do the panel my average service takes me and a helper 3 hours


Service upgrade and panel change...3 hours?:no:


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## Hippie (May 12, 2011)

powerhouse pete said:


> your speed will come with experience I'm doing electric for 22 years I've never had a service take me and a helper more than five hours that's changing everything outside new panel labeling and running new water ground. Start on the outside cut your taps on your way down take the service down I cut the feeder going to the panel flush with the wall then go downstairs pull your panel off putting it back shove your feeders in then mount your meter pan then the top half then do the panel my average service takes me and a helper 3 hours


If 3 hrs is average that's saying some have been done in like 2 hours. Maybe if it was a surface panel with a couple circuits in a open basement but the average service change for me is a flush mount panel with 30 plus circuits, wires coming in top and bottom, old romex/bx or other stuff that has to be fixed or dealt with, it needs to look good and not have gaping holes around the edges, etc. Thats not going to happen in 3 hours


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## powerhouse pete (Nov 13, 2013)

Hippie said:


> If 3 hrs is average that's saying some have been done in like 2 hours. Maybe if it was a surface panel with a couple circuits in a open basement but the average service change for me is a flush mount panel with 30 plus circuits, wires coming in top and bottom, old romex/bx or other stuff that has to be fixed or dealt with, it needs to look good and not have gaping holes around the edges, etc. Thats not going to happen in 3 hours


absolutely the five hour ones are in sheet rock with wire coming in on both ends nice and neat the 2 and 3 hour ones are open basement or garage but the ones in Sheetrock are few and far between


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

There used to be a guy on here who could do them in 25-35 man hours

He was the best around

Good old 007 :thumbsup:


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## DIYer4Life (Nov 11, 2013)

I don't understand how these people do full service changes in 3-4 hours.

Tomorrow I'm gonna go to a house that I am changing the service on, I am just going to do some preliminary work while I wait on the permit.

-Bond the pipes at the water heater.
-Run #2 Al GEC across the basement to the water meter, clamp the pipe and jump the meter. Run the #2 to the panel location.
-Run #4 Cu GEC from the panel location to outside behind the bonding block and then down under the siding to the rear of the house. Install bonding block.
-Dig a couple holes, drive the ground rods, run the GEC between, clamp, then bury it.
-Open the old panel and put number tags on wires that are currently labeled. 
-Take a count of what new breakers I will need paying attention to the wire size and not the existing breaker size.
-Remove staples from all the cables above the panel.
-Take measurements of the POA, the overhead line above the property and street, and where I want to put the weatherhead to be sure I am within the PoCo requirements. 

I've got some free time so I like getting this stuff done before the day of the service change, the job is local so it's not costing me anything going twice.

The thing is, the stuff I listed above will take me 2 hours. And that's just the easy stuff :laughing:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

DIYer4Life said:


> I don't understand how these people do full service changes in 3-4 hours.


It is the Internet, people claim all sorts of things. Like being handsome and awesome. :whistling2:


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## powerhouse pete (Nov 13, 2013)

BBQ said:


> It is the Internet, people claim all sorts of things. Like being handsome and awesome. :whistling2:


im definitely not handsome but I definitely do them in a few hours I dont have to prove it and I know it sounds crazy I've had many many customers tell me wow you did that fast my neighbor had it done and it took the guys all day I'm also not required to do all that bonding and grounding just one eight foot ground rod with a number six and a number four going to the water main hers a trick when driving the ground rod once you stab it into the dirt use your rotary hammer to drive it in it takes about ten seconds


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

DIYer4Life said:


> I don't understand how these people do full service changes in 3-4 hours.
> 
> Tomorrow I'm gonna go to a house that I am changing the service on, I am just going to do some preliminary work while I wait on the permit.
> 
> ...


Well I am sure these guys claiming this don't do any of the stuff you have listed here AND are full of it.

I always figure 8 hours 1 mechanic with one helper. You never know what could go wrong and if they get done early that's great.

But of course we cut and re connect ourselves so that also adds to the time.


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

powerhouse pete said:


> im definitely not handsome but I definitely do them in a few hours I dont have to prove it and I know it sounds crazy I've had many many customers tell me wow you did that fast my neighbor had it done and it took the guys all day I'm also not required to do all that bonding and grounding just one eight foot ground rod with a number six and a number four going to the water main hers a trick when driving the ground rod once you stab it into the dirt use your rotary hammer to drive it in it takes about ten seconds


We drive all our rods into sand. You can usually push them in by hand with no tools at all :thumbup:


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## powerhouse pete (Nov 13, 2013)

robnj772 said:


> Well I am sure these guys claiming this don't do any of the stuff you have listed here AND are full of it. I always figure 8 hours 1 mechanic with one helper. You never know what could go wrong and if they get done early that's great. But of course we cut and re connect ourselves so that also adds to the time.


i cut and re hook up the taps my self also I feel like a little kid I'm done with going back and forth I know how long it takes me


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## DIYer4Life (Nov 11, 2013)

powerhouse pete said:


> i cut and re hook up the taps my self also I feel like a little kid I'm done with going back and forth I know how long it takes me


Have I told you how handsome I am?


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## powerhouse pete (Nov 13, 2013)

DIYer4Life said:


> Have I told you how handsome I am?


lmao


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

robnj772 said:


> We drive all our rods into sand. You can usually push them in by hand with no tools at all :thumbup:


I wish I could that. Last service change I did it took me 8 tries to get 2 ground rods in far enough for me to be comfy with it. 45 degree angle, bony a$$ soil, and ledge was sticking up out of the ground on the other side of the driveway. We have some seriously rocky soil here in NH.


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## powerhouse pete (Nov 13, 2013)

Going_Commando said:


> I wish I could that. Last service change I did it took me 8 tries to get 2 ground rods in far enough for me to be comfy with it. 45 degree angle, bony a$$ soil, and ledge was sticking up out of the ground on the other side of the driveway. We have some seriously rocky soil here in NH.


yea it has to be harder in the mountains try the trick I said put your rotary hammer on the end with no bit and it should drive it down I've gone through rock or at least hard spots with it


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## DIYer4Life (Nov 11, 2013)

powerhouse pete said:


> yea it has to be harder in the mountains *try the trick I said put your rotary hammer on the end with no bit and it should drive it down I've gone through rock or at least hard spots with it*


I think most people here already do that. I use a ground rod driving bit as to not mess up the chuck of my Hilti.


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## chris.b (Jan 28, 2013)

My tech and I did a 200 amp service with disconnect, SER, and panel change (underground service) today. 2 ground rods, GFCI in kitchen 4 smoke detectors. POCO turned the power off at 10 am (he was supposed to be there before 9), had inspection at 2:15 and power back on at 4:30.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

DIYer4Life said:


> I think most people here already do that. I use a ground rod driving bit as to not mess up the chuck of my Hilti.


Like you own a hilti. Who did you steal that from?


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## DIYer4Life (Nov 11, 2013)

sbrn33 said:


> Like you own a hilti. Who did you steal that from?


I got a TE-60 off of eBay for $480 with an 1 1/2" SDS-Max bit in great shape.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Going_Commando said:


> I wish I could that. Last service change I did it took me 8 tries to get 2 ground rods in far enough for me to be comfy with it. 45 degree angle, bony a$$ soil, and ledge was sticking up out of the ground on the other side of the driveway. We have some seriously rocky soil here in NH.


Height adjustment tool. :whistling2:


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

Jlarson said:


> Height adjustment tool. :whistling2:


Might have been utilized. :whistling2:


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