# Gems of the Trade- Euro Style



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

That looks safe:


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Tad moldy?


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## Frank Mc (Nov 7, 2010)

MechanicalDVR said:


>


Thats an Oz install and some of them would be proud of it ;-)....


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## Frank Mc (Nov 7, 2010)

MechanicalDVR said:


>


another Oz install


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## Frank Mc (Nov 7, 2010)

MechanicalDVR said:


>


Another Oz install


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

MechanicalDVR said:


>


Explain.

This is so disorienting that I can't figure out much from much. :no::no::no:


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

telsa said:


> Explain.
> 
> This is so disorienting that I can't figure out much from much. :no::no::no:


That's the drop ceiling support for a light fixture! Pretty huh?


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Frank Mc said:


> Thats an Oz install and some of them would be proud of it ;-)....


Very sad!


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

Maybe it's because I'm a red blooded pipe and wire guy but I don't think I've ever seen a foreign electrical installation that's impressed me


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## circuitman1 (Mar 14, 2013)

ponyboy said:


> Maybe it's because I'm a red blooded pipe and wire guy but I don't think I've ever seen a foreign electrical installation that's impressed me
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


THEY DON'T SEEM TO HAVE THE SAME STANDARDS!:thumbsup:
:thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

circuitman1 said:


> THEY DON'T SEEM TO HAVE THE SAME STANDARDS!:thumbsup:
> :thumbsup::thumbsup:


Nope not even close!


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## circuitman1 (Mar 14, 2013)

i wonder if they have inspectors or a code? must be do what you want kinda deal. thank GOD we have rules to go by.:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## Frank Mc (Nov 7, 2010)

circuitman1 said:


> i wonder if they have inspectors or a code? must be do what you want kinda deal. thank GOD we have rules to go by.:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


Please .....All Oz states are licensed states..... code book , and inspectors in all states ..... A lot of what you have seen in the pics would not have been inspected...... Just because you have a code book doe,s not mean everyone is going to adhere to it...There,s probably worse stuff than that out there in Oz....

I take it then all your jobs are inspected in the states ,yes ???

Frank


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## Frank Mc (Nov 7, 2010)

ponyboy said:


> Maybe it's because I'm a red blooded pipe and wire guy but I don't think I've ever seen a foreign electrical installation that's impressed me
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I served my time in Ireland (Goodyear) . We put everything in steel conduit, thought everyone did it that way till i came to Oz....

Frank


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## electro-chem (Dec 17, 2012)

MechanicalDVR said:


>


What, you thought the USA had a monopoly on dodgy split system fly-by-nighters?

Have a look at the facebook 'crap electrical' page, makes that look like a class job


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Frank Mc said:


> Please .....All Oz states are licensed states..... code book , and inspectors in all states ..... A lot of what you have seen in the pics would not have been inspected...... Just because you have a code book doe,s not mean everyone is going to adhere to it...There,s probably worse stuff than that out there in Oz....
> 
> I take it then all your jobs are inspected in the states ,yes ???
> 
> Frank


Touché! It's easier to find pics of bad work in the US than other countries, is that freedom of expression or something else?


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## circuitman1 (Mar 14, 2013)

Frank Mc said:


> Please .....All Oz states are licensed states..... code book , and inspectors in all states ..... A lot of what you have seen in the pics would not have been inspected...... Just because you have a code book doe,s not mean everyone is going to adhere to it...There,s probably worse stuff than that out there in Oz....
> 
> I take it then all your jobs are inspected in the states ,yes ???
> 
> Frank


no! there are a lot of do it yourself jobs.i guess it's this way on both sides of the pond. keeps us legitimate people busy.:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Ouch


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Nice lug


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Trip hazard


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Playing or working?


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

New kind of icebox?


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

That'll stay grounded well...


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## electro-chem (Dec 17, 2012)

MechanicalDVR said:


> New kind of icebox?


Seen ones like that in evap units.
"It's tripping the defrost breaker" - completely encased in ice, thermal cycling has destroyed the insulation. Then someone hit it with a pallet on a forklift.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

electro-chem said:


> Seen ones like that in evap units.
> "It's tripping the defrost breaker" - completely encased in ice, thermal cycling has destroyed the insulation. Then someone hit it with a pallet on a forklift.


Not all that an uncommon problem.


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## electro-chem (Dec 17, 2012)

We smashed it with a fork/crane/truck and now sparks are coming out. Must be an electrician's problem.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

electro-chem said:


> We smashed it with a fork/crane/truck and now sparks are coming out. Must be an electrician's problem.


Two words: *Job Security!*


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

What could possibly go wrong?


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

A little tight?


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## oliquir (Jan 13, 2011)

Humm great type of fuses, should be great looking at high amp when glowing red



MechanicalDVR said:


>


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

oliquir said:


> Humm great type of fuses, should be great looking at high amp when glowing red


That's sure to run up the electric bill. 
POCO loves it!


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## CADPoint (Jul 5, 2007)

Red neck's live everywhere.


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## scotch (Oct 17, 2013)

MechanicalDVR said:


>


Yes....UK instal...switches are down for ON , up for OFF . Like the breakers to replace the fuse wire in the holders....


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## circuitman1 (Mar 14, 2013)

MechanicalDVR said:


>


hope it's dead!


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## circuitman1 (Mar 14, 2013)

oliquir said:


> Humm great type of fuses, should be great looking at high amp when glowing red


isn't that a breaker below?or is just a switch?:001_huh::001_huh::001_huh:


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

circuitman1 said:


> hope it's dead!


Nope, it isn't! Blow dryer receptacle!


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## Corysan (Jan 20, 2017)

I think the non-profit Butchers Without Borders has been busy. It's nice to know that people are the same wherever you go. This could be the start of a great conversation on multi-culturalism!


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Tad high?


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## circuitman1 (Mar 14, 2013)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Nope, it isn't! Blow dryer receptacle!


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## ChrisHakkaraine (Mar 20, 2017)

TUCSON — Every February, gem and mineral dealers from around the world flock to this city in the Arizona desert for a confluence of buying shows that function as the trade’s version of a debutante ball. And every year, intense speculation centers on which gem will be crowned the proverbial belle.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

ChrisHakkaraine said:


> TUCSON — Every February, gem and mineral dealers from around the world flock to this city in the Arizona desert for a confluence of buying shows that function as the trade’s version of a debutante ball. And every year, intense speculation centers on which gem will be crowned the proverbial belle.


Interesting trivia but not exactly what the 'gems' here is referring too.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Aussie panel


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Insulated ground


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Retrofit


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Little corrosion


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## scotch (Oct 17, 2013)

Throwback to the "build your own" panel days ?


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

No disco?


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Electric and gas in the same outdoor shower


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## ChrisHakkaraine (Mar 20, 2017)

telsa said:


> Explain.
> 
> This is so disorienting that I can't figure out much from much. :no::no::no:


why does this bothers me.. LOL:blink:


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

ChrisHakkaraine said:


> why does this bothers me.. LOL:blink:


Hmm, maybe you tell us why?


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## scotch (Oct 17, 2013)

Apart from being a mess...almost everywhere else in the world uses terminal strips for wiring....other overseas electricians can't believe we use those "marette" things !How could you ever accept such poor wiring practices in your codes an Aussie spark asked me .


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

scotch said:


> Apart from being a mess...almost everywhere else in the world uses terminal strips for wiring....other overseas electricians can't believe we use those "marette" things !How could you ever accept such poor wiring practices in your codes an Aussie spark asked me .


After working on all the equipment I have I kind of go with their feelings on this.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## HKK (Dec 5, 2013)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## electro-chem (Dec 17, 2012)

MechanicalDVR said:


>


I see this all the time on older industrial sites but especially on domestic 3 phase aircons. House-bashers very rarely carry 4C&E in their van so they smash in two twin-and-earths. If you're lucky they'll mark which neutral has been re-purposed as a phase conductor.


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## electro-chem (Dec 17, 2012)

MechanicalDVR said:


>


Alien: Electrician Edition


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

MechanicalDVR said:


>


That's brutally crude 'work.'


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

MechanicalDVR said:


>


I have see this semi common over here in Philippines so I am used to doing troubleshooting those craps .,,,


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

frenchelectrican said:


> I have see this semi common over here in Philippines so I am used to doing troubleshooting those craps .,,,


I hope you charge well for that type service call?


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

telsa said:


> That's brutally crude 'work.'


YES it is and hence it's posting here. Should have called this "ET's Wall Of Shame"!


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

MechanicalDVR said:


> I hope you charge well for that type service call?


Ya I do charge a bit for that kind of crap and few area they are plan to upgrade to newer street lighting so slowly getting better.


The metro area is much better shape but outsurrounding area that kinda catch 22 depending on what they done with it.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## scotch (Oct 17, 2013)

Seen this kind of instal in Bali.....it was tropical rain and every switch was arcing....after 3 or 4 beers it didn't seem such a big deal !


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

That gate raceway is too much. Lol.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Misses the whole concept of 'junction box'


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

A European relative of Majewski? I see the family resemblance!


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Someone seriously bought this?


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Looks like Austalia has no shortage of hacks. :no:


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Nice switchboard location


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Just glue it???


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Tad too hot?


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

I'm guessing there are empty Foster's cans scattered nearby all these hack installations.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

MTW said:


> I'm guessing there are empty Foster's cans scattered nearby all these hack installations.


One never knows, do one?

I think there are hacks all over the world and their reasons for crap work vary from one to another.

Looking at some of the guys that come here it falls back on many reasons alcohol nor money aren't always the main ones.

Willful ignorance / code avoidance seem to be major reasons.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Looks waterproof...


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Waterproof


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

To think that London sparks think they are better than us......

London subway wiring:


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## scotch (Oct 17, 2013)

MechanicalDVR said:


> To think that London sparks think they are better than us......
> 
> London subway wiring:


I think it's mostly fibre runs ...and lots of contractors get to use the installed raceways....or not.... as it seems !


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

scotch said:


> I think it's mostly fibre runs ...and lots of contractors get to use the installed raceways....or not.... as it seems !


Either way it's just plain old ugly!


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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