# 240v on half the circuits



## kbsparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Bad neutral. Check the incoming line at the main lugs ....

IF that shows good, then check between that main incoming lug and the terminal strips ... bad connection somewhere


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

Journeyman77 said:


> Then I found there was 240 volts on half the circuits and 20 or so volts on the other half.


I'm guessing the half of the circuits with 240 were all on one leg, and the 20 volt circuits were on the other leg. Open neutral somewhere - probably either the panel lug connection, the meter base connection, or maybe the service splice onto the POCO wires.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

I don't think you understand electricity.


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

kbsparky said:


> Bad neutral. Check the incoming line at the main lugs ....
> 
> IF that shows good, then check between that main incoming lug and the terminal strips ... bad connection somewhere



I agree. And throw some breaks into that long paragraph. (please,very hard to read):thumbsup:


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## user15534 (Oct 15, 2010)

Thanks for the responses but exactly what you have suggested is the first thing I checked, and clearly stated that in my thread. Lord. :blink:


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## user15534 (Oct 15, 2010)

It's like saying I tryed to start my car by first turning the key and then getting replys saying have you tryed turning the key.


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## user15534 (Oct 15, 2010)

I didn't think I needed to understand electricity to be a electrician. Color to color right.


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

Journeyman77 said:


> It's like saying I tryed to start my car by first turning the key and then getting replys saying have you tryed turning the key.


You did get good advice from the above posts. I agree that there is a bad neutral somewhere and you missed it. Did you place a good load on the system during your testing?


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## user15534 (Oct 15, 2010)

No, I didn't put a good load on it, and I should have, but after finding continuity between hot and neutral on the actual refrigerator plug and also plugging in the oven and turning it on and then all the voltage was correct I didn't think I needed to. It's only when the refrigerator is plugged in does it happen.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Journeyman77 said:


> I didn't think I needed to understand electricity to be a electrician. Color to color right.


 1 . Take an extension cord and hard wire it into the panel then plug in the frig if the frig is making 240 volts then the breaker will not hold it.

2. run a 15 amp home run to the fridg location add a box and recp by them selves ,,Take out the old recp and splice through and test i bet you will still find 240 volts because there is a switch box some where that has two circuits for some perpose and the splices are screwed up...


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## user15534 (Oct 15, 2010)

Now I'm starting to second guess myself. Turning on the oven would be putting a good London it. So basically it is the refrigerator that is causing this problem. I just don't understand how. Is there a transformer in the refrigerator that could be damaged therefore boosting the voltage? Now I want to go back over there and put a load on it again to see.


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## The Lightman (Jan 9, 2010)

Journeyman77 said:


> Now I want to go back over there and put a load on it again to see.


I highly recommend that. A trouble light or any load. That will tell you if it was the fridge. If you still get 240, follow Harry's second idea.


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## user15534 (Oct 15, 2010)

I'm going back over there tomorrow and put a load on that specific circuit. Also will try what you suggested about the home run. I thought maybe it was double fed but because everything was good when the refrigerator was unplugged and the actual refrigerator tested bad, I did not think that was possible.
Regardless, the Home owner wants me to meet the refrigerator repairman out there next week but I'm going back over there tomorrow to make absolutely sure.
I will update this thread tomorrow and let you all know what the conclusion is for those interested. Thanks for all the responses.


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

Journeyman77 said:


> Is there a transformer in the refrigerator that could be damaged therefore boosting the voltage?


No. No transformer in the refrigerator. 

What I meant by placing a load on the system is a load while you are testing the main conductors, lugs, etc. They may test good for voltage when there is no load on the system, but once a good load is placed on these conductors you may find your problem.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Journeyman77 said:


> Now I'm starting to second guess myself. Turning on the oven would be putting a good London it. So basically it is the refrigerator that is causing this problem. I just don't understand how. Is there a transformer in the refrigerator that could be damaged therefore boosting the voltage? Now I want to go back over there and put a load on it again to see.



Try pluging in something else and see if 240 volts is showing .


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## user15534 (Oct 15, 2010)

Wouldn't the breaker only trip if it was exceeding 20 amps. Can't the refrigerator be putting out 240 volts but not be pulling any load therefore putting 240 volts back through the system without the breaker tripping? Anyways.. I'm going baxk over tomorrow and well see.


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## Rockyd (Apr 22, 2007)

HARRY304E said:


> 1 . Take an extension cord and hard wire it into the panel then plug in the frig if the frig is making 240 volts then the breaker will not hold it.
> 
> 2. run a 15 amp home run to the fridg location add a box and recp by them selves ,,Take out the old recp and splice through and test i bet you will still find 240 volts because there is a switch box some where that has two circuits for some perpose and the splices are screwed up...


Agree with Harry. Someone took a "hot" down on white from a box to the fridge receptacle (somewhere in the overhead most likely) and what you have is 120 on "A" phase, and 120 from "B" phase going to the box. The circuit is completed when you plug the fridge in. Thinking the "hot" neutral is under a big blue wire nut making everything that is on the opposite phase 240 vac! the stuff on the same phase - 0 volts (it is seeing itself).


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Journeyman77 said:


> Wouldn't the breaker only trip if it was exceeding 20 amps. Can't the refrigerator be putting out 240 volts but not be pulling any load therefore putting 240 volts back through the system without the breaker tripping? Anyways.. I'm going baxk over tomorrow and well see.


The breaker will trip if the frig is feeding voltage back through the neutral..


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## kbsparky (Sep 20, 2007)

HARRY304E said:


> The breaker will trip if the frig is feeding voltage back through the neutral..


NOT if the neutral is "bad"


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

kbsparky said:


> NOT if the neutral is "bad"


If you hard wire an extension cord and plug in the frig the breaker will trip because you are sendinig voltage right to ground through the neutral it is a short circuit..


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

HARRY304E said:


> If you hard wire an extension cord and plug in the frig the breaker will trip because you are sendinig voltage right to ground through the neutral it is a short circuit..


 :001_huh: Can you elaborate, PLEASE? I think I know what you are trying to say, I just can't understand your statement.


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## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

First off the fact that you have continuity from hot to neutral on the fridge itself means nothing. It's supposed to have continuity, otherwise it wouldn't work.

When you checked the line side of the main did you turn the main off?
If so then you will most likely never see an open neutral because a meter doesn't load it enough. 
If not then I would imagine that when you checked it the system was lightly loaded so it didn't show up.
it makes perfect sence that it showed up after you plugged in the fridge because it kicked on the compressor so it loaded the system enough for the loose neutral to show up.


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## doubleoh7 (Dec 5, 2009)

mattsilkwood said:


> First off the fact that you have continuity from hot to neutral on the fridge itself means nothing. It's supposed to have continuity, otherwise it wouldn't work.
> 
> When you checked the line side of the main did you turn the main off?
> If so then you will most likely never see an open neutral because a meter doesn't load it enough.
> ...


 

Sence=sense. Somebody had to say it.


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## OaklandElec (Jan 4, 2011)

You had continuity between the hot and neutral on an appliance? It's almost like it completes some kind of circuit. Definitely cause for concern.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Your range will not put a load on the neutral, it is only 240 volts. The fridg is putting a load on the neutral and that is when you see the neutral connection start to open. Call the power company to check their neutral connection at the pole.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Journeyman77 said:


> I didn't think I needed to understand electricity to be a electrician. Color to color right.



Doctors don't need to understand biology, mechanics don't need to understand internal-combustion engines, and pilots don't need to understand aerodynamics.

Riiiiiiiiiight.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

doubleoh7 said:


> Sence=sense. Somebody had to say it.



What time is the doubleoh7; Spelling "B" Starting i don't want to be late for that..:laughing::laughing:


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> What time is the doubleoh7; Spelling "B" Starting i don't want to be late for that..:laughing::laughing:


You spelled Spelling Bee wrong :laughing:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

oldtimer said:


> :001_huh: Can you elaborate, PLEASE? I think I know what you are trying to say, I just can't understand your statement.


The "OP" is stating he is geting 240 volts from the frig when he plugs it in if so it should trip the breaker..


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

erics37 said:


> You spelled Spelling Bee wrong :laughing:


It's Abbreviated.:whistling2::laughing::laughing:


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

HARRY304E said:


> The "OP" is stating he is geting 240 volts from the frig when he plugs it in if so it should trip the breaker..


 
Hmm, how?


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## OaklandElec (Jan 4, 2011)

Roger123 said:


> Hmm, how?


If the magic refer actually was putting out 240v, one hot leg would be a direct short. In this idiotic theoretical nonsense situation of course.


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

OaklandElec said:


> In this idiotic theoretical nonsense situation of course.


Hmm, now that's about actuate!


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Roger123 said:


> Hmm, how?


That is a good question i do not see how it is possable that is why i suggested the extension cord test..


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

HARRY304E said:


> That is a good question i do not see how it is possable that is why i suggested the extension cord test..


You know Harry, that's a good trouble shooting tool, a simple extension cord.


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

It is probably a bad incomming neutral.I had a house that had similar issues I checked the panel hots to neutral and everything looked fine but as I applied load the readings got crazy 190v on some 39v on others.I could find nothing in nthe house wrong so I turned to the service. It was an underground so I megged it and the neutral didn't have the same reading as the hots I asked the homeowner if anything had been done in the yard and he said other than the satelite that was placed nothing. When I looked outside for the Dish it was very close in line with the underground feed. 
Long story short we dug up the feed and found the neutral was almost completely cut in two it had maybe two or three strands. Replaced the feed and fixed the issue.


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## oliquir (Jan 13, 2011)

480sparky said:


> Doctors don't need to understand biology, mechanics don't need to understand internal-combustion engines, and pilots don't need to understand aerodynamics.
> 
> Riiiiiiiiiight.


i agree, i know some electricians in my region that calls us for any troubleshooting, they know how to install wires but they dont have any electrical comprehension and almost dont know ohm law :whistling2:


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

Not trying to be insulting, but IMO, the OP is in over his head.

Sounds like he is changing too many things at once. Bad trouble shooting technique. Change one thing, check voltages. Change something else, check. Only one thing at a time.

It definitely sounds like you lost your neutral.

Turn off all of your breakers (except the main).

Hook a receptacle (extension cord wired to a breaker works) to A-phase/neutral. Plug in a hair dryer or heat gun (any high amperage resistant load) and turn it on. Observe what happens to the voltages. If you lost your neutral from POCO, the voltage phase to phase should stay close the the same, and you will see the voltage phase to neutral get way out of balance.


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## cthermond (Feb 10, 2011)

hardworkingstiff said:


> Not trying to be insulting, but IMO, the OP is in over his head.
> 
> Sounds like he is changing too many things at once. Bad trouble shooting technique. Change one thing, check voltages. Change something else, check. Only one thing at a time.
> 
> ...


I've run across open neutrals a few times. Usually when you have 240v on part of a circuit it's probably an open neutral. The difficulty lies in tracking down where the open is located. Once you track the open neutral down then your usually home free.


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## user15534 (Oct 15, 2010)

I first of all want to say thanks for everyone's suggestions. I was not able to go back and troubleshoot this problem today but have scheduled with the homeowner to go back there in the morning. I'll post the results of that tomorrow afternoon. 
The homeowner did say when speaking with him today there was 240 volts back on half the circuits. So I was wrong about the refrigerator causing it. I thought so because I couldn't see how that could possibly happen but after putting a load on it and everything testing correct after what all I did I didn't see any further need to search further. It's obviously a problem that's happening intermittently. And theres a couple things I did that I didn't post because its hard to include absoluty everything in a post like this.
And that brings me to the other thing I would like say. Whomever wrote in this thread I'm over my head is almost laughable. This is the type I've come across all to much throughout the years. A person who is mad at the world and thinks if you ask questions then you don't know what your doing, are stupid, and have no business doing it. Well I think the exact opposite. I feel the person who thinks they know everything and feels people will look down on them for asking a question is the person who ends up endangering peoples lives by doing incorrect electrical work. I most definitely am not in over my head. I like to get others opinions so I can continue to learn because there is so much involved in electrical work I'll never be anywhere close to knowing everything, but do have the smarts to find out the answers to something I don't know, or how and where to find a code I don't know, ect..
And to the post about me being wrong about the refrigerator I thought was damaged because the plug has continuity between hot and neutral is incorrect. A refrigerators plug most certainly should not have continuity between the hot and neutral. Put the correct voltage to one that does will most likely blow up in ur face. The fact that this refrigerator plug did have continuity between the hot and neutral is another thing that threw me off. It seams though that this is just a secondary problem that was caused by the 240 volts on the circuit therefore frying the frig. Along with frying the furnace, disposal, doorbell transformer, many light bulbs ect.
So ......this will continue tomorrow and I'll post about what I found.
Again. Thanks for everyone's advise. I value it and this is the reason I decided to sign up on this web site.


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

Journeyman77 said:


> I first of all want to say thanks for everyone's suggestions. I was not able to go back and troubleshoot this problem today but have scheduled with the homeowner to go back there in the morning. I'll post the results of that tomorrow afternoon.
> The homeowner did say when speaking with him today there was 240 volts back on half the circuits. So I was wrong about the refrigerator causing it. I thought so because I couldn't see how that could possibly happen but after putting a load on it and everything testing correct after what all I did I didn't see any further need to search further. It's obviously a problem that's happening intermittently. And theres a couple things I did that I didn't post because its hard to include absoluty everything in a post like this.
> And that brings me to the other thing I would like say. Whomever wrote in this thread I'm over my head is almost laughable. This is the type I've come across all to much throughout the years. A person who is mad at the world and thinks if you ask questions then you don't know what your doing, are stupid, and have no business doing it. Well I think the exact opposite. I feel the person who thinks they know everything and feels people will look down on them for asking a question is the person who ends up endangering peoples lives by doing incorrect electrical work. I most definitely am not in over my head. I like to get others opinions so I can continue to learn because there is so much involved in electrical work I'll never be anywhere close to knowing everything, but do have the smarts to find out the answers to something I don't know, or how and where to find a code I don't know, ect..
> And to the post about me being wrong about the refrigerator I thought was damaged because the plug has continuity between hot and neutral is incorrect. A refrigerators plug most certainly should not have continuity between the hot and neutral. Put the correct voltage to one that does will most likely blow up in ur face. The fact that this refrigerator plug did have continuity between the hot and neutral is another thing that threw me off. It seams though that this is just a secondary problem that was caused by the 240 volts on the circuit therefore frying the frig. Along with frying the furnace, disposal, doorbell transformer, many light bulbs ect.
> ...


You might be in over your head but who cares. It's the best way to learn. I've been in situations like that and I'll never forget what I learned. That said, the first thing you're never gonna forget is that the frig is supposed to have continuity from UNgrounded (hot) to Grounded (neutral). I called them what they really are because you have to remember they are both current carrying conductors and the current only flows when you have a complete circuit.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

Journeyman77 said:


> And that brings me to the other thing I would like say. Whomever wrote in this thread I'm over my head is almost laughable.


I posted that, I think you are, I'm sorry it hurt your feelings.

You are posting classic symptoms of an open neutral on a MWBC. Your service feeder is a MWBC. My money is on a lost neutral.

You have been given the methodology to check for this, I suggest you use it as soon as you go to the site.

Letting your customer try to use this service for 120-volt loads is ........ well let's just say it's not good.


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

I think this needs to be moved to the dyi forum. Or the OP should change his username to just 77.


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

You probably do have a loose or poor neutral connection. First thing to do is put a load on it, like others have said. Turn the load on and off while watching the voltage and you will have no doubt it's a poor neutral connection. I usually pull the meter and test on the line side after I've ruled out the customer side. Before I tighten any lugs or screws I like to measure the voltage drop across the connection, this way I'm confident I fixed the right connection. If the problem is intermittent and you just start torqueing everything you won't know for sure if you fixed it. For example, sometimes the problem shows up when the wind blows the service drop, you tighten something in the panel, problem goes away, you leave, the wind picks up again, the problem was at the drop not the panel.


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

hardworkingstiff said:


> I posted that, I think you are, I'm sorry it hurt your feelings.
> 
> You are posting classic symptoms of an open neutral on a MWBC. Your service feeder is a MWBC. My money is on a lost neutral.
> 
> ...


This is all true, but the next electrician they call will look like a hero.


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## user15534 (Oct 15, 2010)

It has continuity of coarse when the circuit is completed but until then it should not have continuity. Unplug a refrigerator and test between the hot and neutral. Your saying I should learn this should have continuity? My four years of tech school and fifteen on the job say the exact opposite. I don't want to get into a I'm right your right contest but what I am saying is a fact.It's simple.Unplug a refrigerator that you know works and test for continuity between the hot and neutral. If there is continuity its damaged, fryed, broken, whatever you would like to call it. If is does not have continuity then all is as should be. Just like a light bulb is the exact opposite, oh sorry, a lamp. If you lamp has continuity between the hot and neutral then it is good. It your lamp does not have continuity between the hot and neutral then it is bad, meaning the filament is burned out.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

Journeyman77 said:


> It has continuity of coarse when the circuit is completed but until then it should not have continuity. Unplug a refrigerator and test between the hot and neutral. Your saying I should learn this should have continuity? My four years of tech school and fifteen on the job say the exact opposite. I don't want to get into a I'm right your right contest but what I am saying is a fact.It's simple.Unplug a refrigerator that you know works and test for continuity between the hot and neutral. If there is continuity its damaged, fryed, broken, whatever you would like to call it. If is does not have continuity then all is as should be. Just like a light bulb is the exact opposite, oh sorry, a lamp. If you lamp has continuity between the hot and neutral then it is good. It your lamp does not have continuity between the hot and neutral then it is bad, meaning the filament is burned out.


:blink::confused1::blink:

WOW!


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Journeyman77 said:


> It has continuity of coarse when the circuit is completed but until then it should not have continuity. Unplug a refrigerator and test between the hot and neutral. Your saying I should learn this should have continuity? My four years of tech school and fifteen on the job say the exact opposite. I don't want to get into a I'm right your right contest but what I am saying is a fact.It's simple.Unplug a refrigerator that you know works and test for continuity between the hot and neutral. If there is continuity its damaged, fryed, broken, whatever you would like to call it. If is does not have continuity then all is as should be. Just like a light bulb is the exact opposite, oh sorry, a lamp. If you lamp has continuity between the hot and neutral then it is good. It your lamp does not have continuity between the hot and neutral then it is bad, meaning the filament is burned out.


 

Now you're just making yourself look silly.


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## user15534 (Oct 15, 2010)

How's that?


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

Journeyman77 said:


> It has continuity of coarse when the circuit is completed but until then it should not have continuity. _*Unplug a refrigerator and test between the hot and neutral. Your saying I should learn this should have continuity?*_ My four years of tech school and fifteen on the job say the exact opposite. I don't want to get into a I'm right your right contest but what I am saying is a fact.It's simple.Unplug a refrigerator that you know works and test for continuity between the hot and neutral._* If there is continuity its damaged, fryed, broken, whatever you would like to call it. If is does not have continuity then all is as should be. *_Just like a light bulb is the exact opposite, oh sorry, a lamp. If you lamp has continuity between the hot and neutral then it is good. It your lamp does not have continuity between the hot and neutral then it is bad, meaning the filament is burned out.





mcclary's electrical said:


> Now you're just making yourself look silly.


Yep. 



Journeyman77 said:


> How's that?


Let me 'splain it to you Ricky:

ALL electrical devices WILL have a certain degree of continuity between hot and neutral if they are working!! The actual reading in OHMS will vary, but generally a motor load (like a fridge...hmmmm) will have a very low reading (around 6-15 ohms or so) when working properly. A reading of less than say 1-2 ohms would be a sign of possible trouble, and a reading of zero ohms would be a short circuit. 

If you read an open circuit (infinite ohms) then there is a break or open circuit.

You really need to curb the attitude in some of your posts and listen to what these guys are telling you, they have literally hundreds of hours of experience over you and they know what they are talking about! Listen to them, follow their advice and it will make you look like a hero to your customer.:thumbup:

Every symptom you described is a classic case of an open neutral!!


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## user15534 (Oct 15, 2010)

Ok thanks very much.


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

You're welcome sir and keep us posted on what you find with this issue. :thumbup:


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## The Lightman (Jan 9, 2010)

See, J man, we are not all bad guys. Now, get a haircut and a real job. JK


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

Journeyman77 said:


> Ok thanks very much.


Now you got it!! Good luck, tomorrow!


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## Mike D (Sep 16, 2008)

Once you have confirmed the internal house system is fine, call GA Power, they will bring out the "Beast". It one helluva load tester. In my experience in the GA clay, I have found quite a few that had bad laterals from the POCO.

Good luck! Let us know what you find.


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## user15534 (Oct 15, 2010)

So your telling me I'm incorrect about what I am saying about this continuity issue and that I should shut up and learn, or I am correct about the continuity but should not say anything to someone telling different? 
And I'm very aware of what the original pgfroblem most likely is going to turn out to be and missed it on the first go round , but it is a unoccupied rental unit that has no damage because of anything I did or didn't do. I'm not even finished there aside from that call so one of the previous post on this tread saying that I'm letting the customer use 120 volts on this already damaged system is not a good thing doesn't apply. Half the people posting here are so trigger happy to shoot someone down. Why is that. Doesn't matter what the issue is or who it is. So I guess I'm am not supposed to debate?


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## user15534 (Oct 15, 2010)

Ok. I'll do us all a favor and shut the hell up. I'll post the results tomorrow.


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

Roger123 said:


> Now you got it!! Good luck, tomorrow!


Well that didn't last long:



Journeyman77 said:


> So your telling me I'm i*ncorrect about what I am saying about this continuity issue *and that *I should shut up and learn,* or *I am correct about the continuity* but *should not say anything to someone telling different? *


The answers are yes, yes, no and not necessarily, but again lose the attitude.



Journeyman77 said:


> *And I'm very aware of what the original pgfroblem most likely is going to turn out to be* and missed it on the first go round , but *it is a unoccupied rental unit that has no damage because of anything I did or didn't do.* I'm not even finished there aside from that call so one of the previous post on this tread saying that *I'm letting the customer use 120 volts on this already damaged system is not a good thing doesn't apply. *Half the people posting here are so trigger happy to shoot someone down. Why is that. Doesn't matter what the issue is or who it is. *So I guess I'm am not supposed to debate?*


If you are very aware then why are you raising hell with us when we are all trying to get you pointed in the right direction? 

We are not mind readers, and you already told us there is damage. So which is it? 

And you need to learn how to debate without being disagreeable or more bluntly, not coming off like an arrogant ass. 

One of the most annoying things to all of us here is when someone comes here for help, we offer constructive advice and that person proceeds to come off as if we don't know what the f**k we're talking about.


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## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

Journeyman77 said:


> It has continuity of coarse when the circuit is completed but until then it should not have continuity. Unplug a refrigerator and test between the hot and neutral. Your saying I should learn this should have continuity? My four years of tech school and fifteen on the job say the exact opposite. I don't want to get into a I'm right your right contest but what I am saying is a fact.It's simple.Unplug a refrigerator that you know works and test for continuity between the hot and neutral. If there is continuity its damaged, fryed, broken, whatever you would like to call it. If is does not have continuity then all is as should be. Just like a light bulb is the exact opposite, oh sorry, a lamp. If you lamp has continuity between the hot and neutral then it is good. It your lamp does not have continuity between the hot and neutral then it is bad, meaning the filament is burned out.


 Do you understand how electricity works at all?:no::laughing:


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## The Lightman (Jan 9, 2010)

J, after you wrote the first sentence, the troubleshooters here knew the cause of the problem. It is simply a matter of isolating your open neutral. Start at the service. If the problem is there, make a call, the job may be over, it is a POCO problem. If the main lugs, circuit breakers and branch circuits in the panel are fine, start dividing them up and don't leave until you find it. Let us know what you find.


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## The Lightman (Jan 9, 2010)

Journeyman77 said:


> Ok. I'll do us all a favor and shut the hell up. I'll post the results tomorrow.


Go read other threads and you'll see who's smoking what.


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## user15534 (Oct 15, 2010)

mattsilkwood said:


> Do you understand how electricity works at all?:no::laughing:


Obviously I don't, will you explain it to me?


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## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

Journeyman77 said:


> Obviously I don't, will you explain it to me?


 I tried.:whistling2:


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## user15534 (Oct 15, 2010)

Just kidding..I see its easy to push buttons here. I was not expecting that at all.


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

Journeyman77 said:


> Ok. I'll do us all a favor and shut the hell up. I'll post the results tomorrow.


The favor is for yourself, this is very entertaining. You should spend the rest of the night studying electrical theory. Eventually it's going to click and you are going to feel so enlightened. Or you can keep on believing that you're correct and we're all crazy. 

If you weren't being such a dumbass I never would have made the comment that you got some gay ass hair. You must be so proud to show it in your avatar.


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

Journeyman77 said:


> Just kidding..I see its easy to push buttons here. I was not expecting that at all.


Keep it up and see how fast you get banned!:ban:


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## user15534 (Oct 15, 2010)

If I get banned who are you going to have to insult, reprimand, and verbally strong arm? Or are you bald, overweight, and upset your wife is over here?


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## oldschool (Aug 2, 2008)

Journeyman77 said:


> So your telling me I'm incorrect about what I am saying about this continuity issue and that I should shut up and learn, or I am correct about the continuity but should not say anything to someone telling different?
> And I'm very aware of what the original pgfroblem most likely is going to turn out to be and missed it on the first go round , but it is a unoccupied rental unit that has no damage because of anything I did or didn't do. I'm not even finished there aside from that call so one of the previous post on this tread saying that I'm letting the customer use 120 volts on this already damaged system is not a good thing doesn't apply. Half the people posting here are so trigger happy to shoot someone down. Why is that. Doesn't matter what the issue is or who it is. So I guess I'm am not supposed to debate?


check the continuity on your frig....see if yours is bad too


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## Jcode (Mar 24, 2011)

Journeyman77 said:


> If I get banned who are you going to have to insult, reprimand, and verbally strong arm? Or are you bald, overweight, and upset your wife is over here?


I haven't been here long and quickily figured out that most here are QUIIIIICK to jump down your throat and start throwing names around. Learn that with this board quick

Unfortuantly. 

Half are more eager to get under your skin and hide what their doing with some advice (that will be something obvious like turn the key to start a car, to use your example) then tell you you're a (insert name calling) even though they put in jabs with their "advice". Other half are genuine and give advice. It's quite obvious once you don't let it bother you.

You'll get good advice here. Just DON'T try 'flexing ANY muscles' with what you know as that seems to be the gas to get the fire going with 90% of the ppl here. 

Epeen. I see it on video game boards all day long, somewhat on car forums, but never thought I'd step on this site that should have plenty of good working men, and its actually worse than the forums loaded with 15-23 yr olds. :blink:

*puts on flame jacket*


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## user15534 (Oct 15, 2010)

Ok got it. Thanks. Threw me for a loop. This is my first forum, chat, anything comminicating with others on the web and right off the bat have jerks throwing there words at me. I think this will be my last post in this site. Thanks for the warm welcome.


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

Jcode said:


> *I haven't been here long and quickily figured out that most here are QUIIIIICK to jump down your throat and start throwing names around.* Learn that with this board quick
> 
> Unfortuantly.
> 
> ...


And not having been here long _*you*_ missed the obvious things that get people here jumping down someone's throat, i.e. THESE:



mxslick said:


> If you are very aware then *why are you raising hell with us when we are all trying to get you pointed in the right direction?
> *
> And you need to *learn how to debate without being disagreeable or more bluntly, not coming off like an arrogant ass. *
> 
> _*One of the most annoying things to all of us here is when someone comes here for help, we offer constructive advice and that person proceeds to come off as if we don't know what the f**k we're talking about. *_


So there. :tt2:


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## Jcode (Mar 24, 2011)

Been on forums off an on for many years. Just part of my generation. This one is the worst I've visiting with the bashing/help ratio.

I stick around to see other post and learn things and just to damn hard to upset me so I let em have at it lol.

Again, just don't try to flash any geniune knowledge to make a point with someone that commented and it stays pretty level headed. Just ultra sensitive folk around here is all. Pretend like your talking to your wife/gf when she's PMSing. Gotta tiptoe with the compliments about how she looks


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

Journeyman77 said:


> Ok got it. Thanks. Threw me for a loop. This is my first forum, chat, anything comminicating with others on the web and right off the bat have jerks throwing there words at me. _*I think this will be my last post in this site.*_ Thanks for the warm welcome.


I am sure you will be missed.

Don't let your keyboard hit you in the butt when you leave.


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## Jcode (Mar 24, 2011)

Lol. I don't miss it. I know exactly what gets everyone riled up. I also realize 77 started getting uppity himself. Never called him innocent


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## nmethod (Feb 18, 2010)

Jcode said:


> Lol. I don't miss it. I know exactly what gets everyone riled up. I also realize 77 started getting uppity himself. Never called him innocent


What really got me, though, is he was never really 'flamed' until he attempted to _learn us all something_ with his concept of continuity. 

For what its worth, I have first year green horns who could have explained the concept of continuity within their first week, any why one might observe it when testing H-N on a fridge.

For someone who has 4 years of classroom training and 15 years of field experience... well, let's just say something doesn't fit.


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## electricalperson (Jan 11, 2008)

user15534 said:


> I didn't think I needed to understand electricity to be a electrician. Color to color right.


if your an installer than thats all that matters. an electrician should know what he is working with so he can troubleshoot the systems he installs. have the poco check the neutrals on the pole


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

THAT"LL LARN YA!:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## jefft110 (Jul 7, 2010)

So, do you think that after his hard head takes a back seat, and he returns to the job and finds the open neutral, that he will return here eating crow?


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## The Lightman (Jan 9, 2010)

jefft110 said:


> So, do you think that after his hard head takes a back seat, and he returns to the job and finds the open neutral, that he will return here eating crow?


No, he didn't like us.
"jerks throwing there words at me. I think this will be my last post in this site."
He changed his name and split, off the grid.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

jefft110 said:


> So, do you think that after his hard head takes a back seat, and he returns to the job and finds the open neutral, that he will return here eating crow?



No, because his account has been deleted. He is now user15534.


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

He reminded me off this guy who came to work on one of my job sites and after asking him to do something said, I run jobs I should be telling you what to do. Then he proceeded to be one of the dumbest guys i ever met. Including getting tons of fingerprints on everything he touched and spending several hours not being able to figure out a bad main breaker that was dead in one leg. I remember him saying, " seems like half the house doesn't work."


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

Bkessler said:


> He reminded me off this guy who came to work on one of my job sites and after asking him to do something said, I run jobs I should be telling you what to do. Then he proceeded to be one of the dumbest guys i ever met. Including getting tons of fingerprints on everything he touched and spending several hours not being able to figure out a bad main breaker that was dead in one leg. I remember him saying, " seems like half the house doesn't work."


Self horn-tooters are irritating, especially when they can't live up to their boasting.


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

480sparky said:


> No, because his account has been deleted. He is now user15534.


Naw I think he's still here with a lame and useless attempt to hide under a different name. :laughing:


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## electricalperson (Jan 11, 2008)

Bkessler said:


> He reminded me off this guy who came to work on one of my job sites and after asking him to do something said, I run jobs I should be telling you what to do. Then he proceeded to be one of the dumbest guys i ever met. Including getting tons of fingerprints on everything he touched and spending several hours not being able to figure out a bad main breaker that was dead in one leg. I remember him saying, " seems like half the house doesn't work."


nice. i had experience with a couple guys like that. i just ignore them and then have a good time watching them be stupid


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

mxslick said:


> Naw I think he's still here with a lame and useless attempt to hide under a different name. :laughing:


I think if the mods do an all-out ban, their username gets changed to usernnnnn. I don't think it's possible for a regular member to change it.


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## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

That silly er. Everybody knows that a fridge isn't 240, you use 240 for your microwave so your hot dog cooks faster. 


On a side note I've got a problem at my house. The living room light quit. I have 120 at the fixture and I tested the lamp, I know it's good because it has no continuity. What could it be. My neighbor just cut his grass, could that be the problem?




:laughing:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

mattsilkwood said:


> ......What could it be?..........:laughing:


The gubbamint can't pass a budget.:whistling2:


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## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

480sparky said:


> The gubbamint can't pass a budget.:whistling2:


 But they can *surpass *the budget. They're real good at that.


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## electricalperson (Jan 11, 2008)

mattsilkwood said:


> That silly er. Everybody knows that a fridge isn't 240, you use 240 for your microwave so your hot dog cooks faster.
> 
> 
> On a side note I've got a problem at my house. The living room light quit. I have 120 at the fixture and I tested the lamp, I know it's good because it has no continuity. What could it be. My neighbor just cut his grass, could that be the problem?
> ...


i really wish more so called electricians knew theory. in order to be a good electrician basic electrical theory needs to be understood IMO.


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## oliquir (Jan 13, 2011)

electricalperson said:


> i really wish more so called electricians knew theory. in order to be a good electrician basic electrical theory needs to be understood IMO.


the solution is simple they should put an electronics classes before doing electrical classes, that what i have done (i work mainly in controls, plc,..) and it helps a lot to troubleshoot.


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## electricalperson (Jan 11, 2008)

oliquir said:


> the solution is simple they should put an electronics classes before doing electrical classes, that what i have done (i work mainly in controls, plc,..) and it helps a lot to troubleshoot.


the electrical program i went through in high school had theory. it was a big part of the related course. the related class was electrical math, theory and NEC. the shop portion also covered theory. nothing too extreme but basic


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## AFOREMA1 (Nov 23, 2009)

electricalperson said:


> i really wish more so called electricians knew theory. in order to be a good electrician basic electrical theory needs to be understood IMO.


I have a theory that he wasn't an electrician at all.


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## electricalperson (Jan 11, 2008)

AFOREMA1 said:


> I have a theory that he wasn't an electrician at all.


if he was he probably wasnt a very good one. i seen a few that thought they were the **** yet could not troubleshoot at all. i dont know why anyone in the trade wont want to know theory because troubleshooting correctly is the most fun part of the field for me


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## AFOREMA1 (Nov 23, 2009)

electricalperson said:


> if he was he probably wasnt a very good one. i seen a few that thought they were the **** yet could not troubleshoot at all. i dont know why anyone in the trade wont want to know theory because troubleshooting correctly is the most fun part of the field for me


:thumbup::yes::yes::yes::thumbup:


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## KenD (Feb 16, 2011)

I had a customer who complained of light bulbs exploding. sounded like an exaggeration but when I arrived and turned on the lights in the basement they did in fact burnout very brightly and loudly. I opened the panel and metered it all out. After finding 240ish to ground, I immediately suspected an open/ bad neutral. I clamped an amp meter around the EGC and read almost 20 amps. Called POCO and had them replace the triplex. Game Over.


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## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

electricalperson said:


> i really wish more so called electricians knew theory. in order to be a good electrician basic electrical theory needs to be understood IMO.


 Exactly, how can you make something work if you don't know how it works?
I know a guy just like that, he was a romex honker for years but can't troubleshoot his way out of the truck, because he has no clue how things work and has no desire to learn. It's sad really.


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

mattsilkwood said:


> Exactly, how can you make something work if you don't know how it works?
> I know a guy just like that, he was a romex honker for years but can't troubleshoot his way out of the truck, because he has no clue how things work and has no desire to learn. It's sad really.


Sounds like my average coworker. Their response is always, "I learned that way back in trade school, how do you expect me to remember that?".
I garauntee you t were the guys in trade school saying, "What does this have to do with bending pipe? I don't need to know this."


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## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

CFL said:


> Sounds like my average coworker. Their response is always, "I learned that way back in trade school, how do you expect me to remember that?".
> I garauntee you t were the guys in trade school saying, "What does this have to do with bending pipe? I don't need to know this."


 I never understood that mentality. People like that will never go anywhere, they will always be following someone. I guess everyone has a place in life. 

That's not for me, I want to be so damned smart no one can stand to be around me one of these days.:thumbsup:


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