# multiple disconnect location trade-off



## mikewillnot (Apr 2, 2013)

I'm working in an older double apartment house, divided L/R. One unit has been occupied continuously for 30 yrs, the other vacant for @9mos. Power to unit #2 was turned off by the utility due to the time lag, and requires inspection prior to reenergizing. Each unit has its own separate half of the basement. Double meter socket on wall outside unit #1. 

Unit #1 - service panel in basement, back-to-back, with main; NOT a subpanel. 
Unit #2 - originally had 100amp outdoor disco feeding about 20' of 150amp SE (!) cable through unit #1's basement to 150 amp "sub-panel" in Unit #2's basement, with 150 amp disco in the panel.

Code says both units must have access to their own disconnects. It also says that disconnects must be grouped (but doesn't seem to define "grouped" in any technical way). Do BOTH interior panels need to be convertetd to sub-panels, each with outdoor disconnects??? Isn't there some other way to skin the cat? I mean, nothing against cats or anything....


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

I really don't see a good alternative then to install 2- wp main breaker panels as the main disconnects leaving inside as subs.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

There is nothing in the code that requires the service disconnects for one set of service entrance conductors to be grouped with the service disconnects for another set of service entrance conductors.


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## mikewillnot (Apr 2, 2013)

230.72 Grouping of Disconnects
(A) Two to Six Disconnects. The disconnecting means for each service must be grouped. 
(B) Fire Pump and Stand-by Power Service. To minimize the possibility of accidental interruption of power, the disconnecting means for fire pumps or standby power services, as permitted in 230.2(A)(1), must be located remotely away from the two to six disconnects for normal service. 
(C) Access to Occupants. In a multiple-occupancy building, each occupant must have access to his or her disconnecting means.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

mikewillnot said:


> I'm working in an older double apartment house, divided L/R. One unit has been occupied continuously for 30 yrs, the other vacant for @9mos. Power to unit #2 was turned off by the utility due to the time lag, and requires inspection prior to reenergizing. Each unit has its own separate half of the basement. Double meter socket on wall outside unit #1.
> 
> Unit #1 - service panel in basement, back-to-back, with main; NOT a subpanel.
> Unit #2 - originally had 100amp outdoor disco feeding about 20' of 150amp SE (!) cable through unit #1's basement to 150 amp "sub-panel" in Unit #2's basement, with 150 amp disco in the panel.
> ...


 
There is something else it kinda bother me a bit I know in state of Wisconsin they genrally do not allow the SE cable run thur the basement to the other unit it don't matter if OCPD'ed or not. That part you may want to check with your inspector for details on that.

I will just ran that outside of the unit for safety reason.

But for grouped location it kinda semi broad denfitation on that but the safest methold is install a main breaker below the meter socket that useally take care of the issue but you will need the SER cable not the SE cable due the neutral et ground is seperated.

And check with your state codes for denifeation of mulit family service it should mention about that part.

Merci,
Marc


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## mikewillnot (Apr 2, 2013)

I replaced the SE with SER. The question had to do with the location of the disconnects. T
So far the inspector has requested that #2 be moved outdoors but not #1.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

mikewillnot said:


> 230.72 Grouping of Disconnects
> (A) Two to Six Disconnects. The disconnecting means for each service must be grouped.
> (B) Fire Pump and Stand-by Power Service. To minimize the possibility of accidental interruption of power, the disconnecting means for fire pumps or standby  power services, as permitted in 230.2(A)(1), must be located remotely away from the two to six disconnects for normal service.
> (C) Access to Occupants. In a multiple-occupancy building, each occupant must have access to his or her disconnecting means.


It appears you left a few key words out your code quote.


> 230.72 Grouping of Disconnects. (A) General. The two to six disconnects *as permitted in 230.71 shall be grouped*. Each disconnect shall be marked to indicate the load served. ...





> 230.71 Maximum Number of Disconnects. (A) General. The service disconnecting means for each service permitted by 230.2, *or for each set of service-entrance conductors* permitted by 230.40 ...


There is nothing that says the disconnects for one set of service entrance conductors is required to be grouped with the service disconnects for the other set(s) of service entrance conductors.


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## 6 shooter (Feb 4, 2008)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> It appears you left a few key words out your code quote.
> 
> 
> 
> There is nothing that says the disconnects for one set of service entrance conductors is required to be grouped with the service disconnects for the other set(s) of service entrance conductors.


This is interesting. Say for instance you had a 200 amp meter socket changed it out and installed a 400 amp socket. I would have one 200 amp panel back to back for the house. I would then nipple out the side of the 400 amp socket and hit a 100 amp outdoor service for outdoor equipment.

The disconnects would not be grouped per say. But each service has its own service entrance conductors tapped off the load side of the meter. Thus this would make it code compliance?


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

6 shooter said:


> This is interesting. Say for instance you had a 200 amp meter socket changed it out and installed a 400 amp socket. I would have one 200 amp panel back to back for the house. I would then nipple out the side of the 400 amp socket and hit a 100 amp outdoor service for outdoor equipment.
> 
> The disconnects would not be grouped per say. But each service has its own service entrance conductors tapped off the load side of the meter. Thus this would make it code compliance?


No it would have to be a separate drop.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

6 shooter said:


> This is interesting. Say for instance you had a 200 amp meter socket changed it out and installed a 400 amp socket. I would have one 200 amp panel back to back for the house. I would then nipple out the side of the 400 amp socket and hit a 100 amp outdoor service for outdoor equipment.
> 
> The disconnects would not be grouped per say. But each service has its own service entrance conductors tapped off the load side of the meter. Thus this would make it code compliance?


That would not be an additional set of service conductors as permitted by by 230.40. All of the disconnects for all of the sets of service conductors that are served by a single meter must be grouped with each other. 

When you have multiple meters, the service disconnects for each meter must be grouped with each other, but are not required to be grouped with service disconnects for other meters.


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