# New Rule for Bathroom Receptacles



## HertzHound (Jan 22, 2019)

I can see a wording change in the next cycle. 

So if you have less than 3’ near the sink, you would have to put the receptacle somewhere else in the room that has more than 3 feet? 

Hopefully the inspectors will have some sense ability.


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## HertzHound (Jan 22, 2019)

Will the bidet toilet seats come in a hardwired version. I’m sure cutting the molded cord cap off to hard wire them will be an issue.


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

What a stupid requirement. So, it's ok for the "perceived" danger to exist if the room is too small to meet the new "zone" requirement? 

Why? If it's truly a safety/hazard issue to have a receptacle within this 3 foot zone, why not just not permit a receptacle in the room at all?


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

So after having receptacles in bathrooms near tubs for many decades now, suddenly this is an issue.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I will maintain the same thing that I always do. Unless you could show that people are getting hurt from this right now, and that moving it 3 foot away would prevent those people from getting hurt, you are not making anything safer. Not even a little bit.

But it looks good on paper, right?


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## Signal1 (Feb 10, 2016)

I have plugmold all the way around my tub. No GFI, No problems.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> I will maintain the same thing that I always do. Unless you could show that people are getting hurt from this right now, and that moving it 3 foot away would prevent those people from getting hurt, you are not making anything safer. Not even a little bit.
> 
> But it looks good on paper, right?


That's what I'm saying. How many hundreds of millions of bathrooms are out there where the outlet is less than 3 feet from the tub? Are there statistics to show this was a problem? If anything, not having a receptacle in a small bathroom is more of a danger than it being close to the tub.

The NEC gets dumber every time they release a new edition.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MTW said:


> That's what I'm saying. How many hundreds of millions of bathrooms are out there where the outlet is less than 3 feet from the tub? Are there statistics to show this was a problem? If anything, not having a receptacle in a small bathroom is more of a danger than it being close to the tub.
> 
> The NEC gets dumber every time they release a new edition.


But there will be people on this forum who will tell you that it is safer. And as long as those people exist, we will continue to get stupid codes implemented for absolute no reason other than _feelings_.


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## bostonPedro (Nov 14, 2017)

Code people have to much time on their hands. 
They need to get a life


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

HackWork said:


> But there will be people on this forum who will tell you that it is safer. And as long as those people exist, we will continue to get stupid codes implemented for absolute no reason other than _feelings_.


AND that it is safer because, and only because, the code says it.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Generally for a code to get passed there needs to be some substantiation. I have no idea what the substantiation was but apparently it was enough to convince the cmp members.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Generally for a code to get passed there needs to be some substantiation. I have no idea what the substantiation was but apparently it was enough to convince the cmp members.


I think they bastardize the word "substantiation". In situations like this, I don't think they are using solid statistics that say people are getting hurt and changing the code in X way will prevent those injuries. If so, where are those statistics?


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

HackWork said:


> I think they bastardize the word "substantiation". In situations like this, I don't think they are using solid statistics that say people are getting hurt and changing the code in X way will prevent those injuries. If so, where are those statistics?


I would want to see the whole study.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Bird dog said:


> I would want to see the whole study.


There was no study. Some idiot made a proposal, and a bunch of other idiots said "_That's a good idea, let's do it_".


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

Thank god, the nation will no longer have the needless tragedy of toasters and hotplates falling into the tub.
I installed a single receptacle over the toilet and plugged in a night light so I don't piss all over the seat at 3 am. I guess I'm headed down the scofflaw trail, an outlaw rebel with a clean bathroom.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> There was no study. Some idiot made a proposal, and a bunch of puppets for manufacturers said "_That's a good idea, let's do it_".


Fify


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

A girl was electrocuted a couple of years ago. She had her phone plugged in while she was in the bath.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> A girl was electrocuted a couple of years ago. She had her phone plugged in while she was in the bath.


Was that because the outlet was within 3 foot? If it was 37" away, would her 6' cord not have reached? 

Are we going to change millions upon millions of installations because a girl died a couple of years ago?


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## Tonedeaf (Nov 26, 2012)

99cents said:


> A girl was electrocuted a couple of years ago. She had her phone plugged in while she was in the bath.


Darwinism


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

99cents said:


> A girl was electrocuted a couple of years ago. She had her phone plugged in while she was in the bath.


Here's an article about that. She used an extension cord which was frayed plugged into a non-GFI protected outlet in the bathroom.
https://www.cnn.com/2017/07/18/health/teen-bathtub-electrocuted-text-trnd/index.html


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Bird dog said:


> Here's an article about that. She used an extension cord which was frayed plugged into a non-GFI protected outlet in the bathroom.
> https://www.cnn.com/2017/07/18/health/teen-bathtub-electrocuted-text-trnd/index.html


Ban extension cords longer than 3 foot?


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Ban girls?


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## JoeSparky (Mar 25, 2010)

HackWork said:


> Ban extension cords longer than 3 foot?


That will work:no: They definitely won't figure out how to plug multiple cords together


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

flyboy said:


> What a stupid requirement. So, it's ok for the "perceived" danger to exist if the room is too small to meet the new "zone" requirement?
> 
> Why? If it's truly a safety/hazard issue to have a receptacle within this 3 foot zone, why not just not permit a receptacle in the room at all?



Where is John Stossel when you need him?


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

99cents said:


> A girl was electrocuted a couple of years ago. She had her phone plugged in while she was in the bath.


Invalid reason alert! Invalid reason alert!

Smart phones are plugged into a low voltage power supply supplying non-lethal voltage. However, like everything, there's a flood of extremely dangerous chargers on the market. The problem here was an unsafe power supply that had no isolation between high and low voltage, or was referenced to line voltage. There's tons of videos on Youtube showing teardowns of these bogus/knockoff/cheap chargers and how dangerous they are, including ones showing the metal case of the smartphone live at 120 or 240 volts because of an unsafe charger.


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

HackWork said:


> Ban extension cords longer than 3 foot?


No, sadly, wrong place wrong time for this teenager.


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

MTW said:


> Fify


It was the manufacturers that started this whole GFI fiasco. It's more about profit than safety. Same for AFI's. Thanks NEMA.


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

Bird dog said:


> Here's an article about that. She used an extension cord which was frayed plugged into a non-GFI protected outlet in the bathroom.
> https://www.cnn.com/2017/07/18/health/teen-bathtub-electrocuted-text-trnd/index.html


I see a candidate for the Darwin award.


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## bostonPedro (Nov 14, 2017)

When I take a nice relaxing bubble bath with candles lit up also I like to bring the microwave into the bathroom so I can heat some water for some tea and heat up some hot pockets. 
This new rule means I now have to use a thermos for my tea and no more eating hot pockets when I take a bubble bath. 
DAMN YOU CODE PEOPLE, DAMN YOU ALL TO HELL


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

As far as I can tell the only substantiation was that the section was vague when it stated "no receptacles over the tub or shower stall. I agree it was vague

I do not see any real substantiation other than 410.10(D) required light fixture pendants to not be install within the zone so some members thought the same should apply to receptacles.


What do you do if you have a double sink that abuts the tub. The space between the sinks may not be 3' away so I am guessing you would only need one receptacle on the opposite wall.


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

bostonPedro said:


> When I take a nice relaxing bubble bath with candles lit up also I like to bring the microwave into the bathroom so I can heat some water for some tea and heat up some hot pockets.
> This new rule means I now have to use a thermos for my tea and no more eating hot pockets when I take a bubble bath.
> DAMN YOU CODE PEOPLE, DAMN YOU ALL TO HELL


I have a 12v Keurig recessed in the bathtub area & it's not coming out!! :vs_mad:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> As far as I can tell the only substantiation was that the section was vague when it stated "no receptacles over the tub or shower stall. I agree it was vague


 So they could have clarified where the stall started. There was no need to add the 3 foot nonsense.


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

HackWork said:


> So they could have clarified where the stall started. There was no need to add the 3 foot nonsense.


Or add some verbiage about when the divder between the tub area & sink is shorter than the depth of the vanity or non-existent.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

We aren’t allowed to have switches within 1 meter of the tub.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> We aren’t allowed to have switches within 1 meter of the tub.


That's smart, because 120V lightning jumps thru plastic. You guys are so safe up there.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

What was the rule before? Was there any restrictions with receptacles in washrooms?

We’ve always had restrictions in our code. (Canadian)

26-720(g) receptacles installed in bathrooms shall, where practicable, be located at least 1 m but in no case less than 500 mm from the bathtub or shower stall, this distance being measured horizontally between the receptacle and the bathtub or shower stall, without piercing a wall, partition, or similar obstacle;


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

99cents said:


> We aren’t allowed to have switches within 1 meter of the tub.


If they are GFI protected yes. But no closer than 500mm.

30-320(3)


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> That's smart, because 120V lightning jumps thru plastic. You guys are so safe up there.


You don’t have metallic cover plates down there?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> You don’t have metallic cover plates down there?


They are not so common. And when they are used, they are bonded to ground just like the bathtub and the faucet. Should the faucet and bathtub be a minimum of 3 feet away from the bathtub?


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> They are not so common. And when they are used, they are bonded to ground just like the bathtub and the faucet. Should the faucet and bathtub be a minimum of 3 feet away from the bathtub?


I don’t write the rules. Sometimes code is designed to protect stupid people from their own stupidity (although, once you solve one issue, someone will find a higher level of stupidity).


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> I don’t write the rules. Sometimes code is designed to protect stupid people from their own stupidity (although, once you solve one issue, someone will find a higher level of stupidity).


Let’s go back to talking about how 120 V can jump through a plastic light switch. But only when within 3 foot of a bathtub.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> Let’s go back to talking about how 120 V can jump through a plastic light switch. But only when within 3 foot of a bathtub.


I dunno, metallic screws?


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## Galt (Sep 11, 2013)

Fiberglass tubs pex water lines pvc drain pipe. I don't think the danger exist anymore.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> I dunno, metallic screws?


Again, bonded to the same ground as the faucet and tub.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

HackWork said:


> I will maintain the same thing that I always do. Unless you could show that people are getting hurt from this right now, and that moving it 3 foot away would prevent those people from getting hurt, you are not making anything safer. Not even a little bit.
> 
> But it looks good on paper, right?


This rule goes right along with the stupid, feel good, dumb sheet mentality that often influences our codes.

Why not put it out in the hall much safer that way.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

So the NEC doesn't even put up a pretense of requiring substantiation for code rules anymore. Of course, we know they gave this up with AFCI's now 20 years ago. Now it's just out in the open. They are much more brazen now.

I almost feel they had to put in a rule that was about "safety" to cover for the fact that so many rules they create now are simply to enrich manufacturers.


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## Signal1 (Feb 10, 2016)

drsparky said:


> Thank god, the nation will no longer have the needless tragedy of toasters and hotplates falling into the tub.
> I installed a single receptacle over the toilet and plugged in a night light so I don't piss all over the seat at 3 am. I guess I'm headed down the scofflaw trail, an outlaw rebel with a clean bathroom.


In my code class they taught me that the radio goes next to the tub, and the hot plate goes in the dining room.

Fortunately, I have plugmold, so I can do whatever I want.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Signal1 said:


> In my code class they taught me that the radio goes next to the tub, and the hot plate goes in the dining room.
> 
> Fortunately, I have plugmold, so I can do whatever I want.


Sounds like the very useful  code classes I take, where we revert back to 1950's practices.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

Good thing this is just for receptacles. There's no way I'm ripping out the busduct over my bath tub.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

CoolWill said:


> Good thing this is just for receptacles. There's no way I'm ripping out the busduct over my bath tub.


I bet your busduct is only 480 volts. Mine is 600 volts. :thumbup:


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

MTW said:


> I bet your busduct is only 480 volts. Mine is 600 volts. :thumbup:


It's actually 208, fed from the 112.5 kVA transformer hanging over the toilet.


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

MTW said:


> I bet your busduct is only 480 volts. Mine is 600 volts. :thumbup:


Mine is a 575 volt corner ground Delta. Beat that.


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

CoolWill said:


> It's actually 208, fed from the 112.5 kVA transformer hanging over the toilet.


No doubt it’s a 2 phase to 3 phase Scott T xformer.


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

Nothing like xfmr fault current at the receptacle. :shifty:


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

460 Delta said:


> No doubt it’s a 2 phase to 3 phase Scott T xformer.


It's like we're two peas in a sweaty pod:vs_OMG:


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

Bird dog said:


> Nothing like xfmr fault current at the receptacle. :shifty:


What’s the difference if you have a Federal Pacific panel? The fault current is whatever the cutout on the pole is. Heaven help you if the cutout is butter knifed.


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

460 Delta said:


> What’s the difference if you have a Federal Pacific panel? The fault current is whatever the cutout on the pole is. Heaven help you if the cutout is butter knifed.


What's wrong with a butter knife? I use silver butter knifes. :yes:


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

And yet another government jugbutt has justified his job..........


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

How long will it be a requirement to put 2 extra gfi receptacle outlets into Transgender bathrooms just so they feel included?


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

macmikeman said:


> How long will it be a requirement to put 2 extra gfi receptacle outlets into Transgender bathrooms just so they feel included?


That's a good point. Instead of duplex receptacles we should be installing one inlet / one receptacle, equal time kind of thing. Regular duplex receptacles are actually racist.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

splatz said:


> That's a good point. Instead of duplex receptacles we should be installing one inlet / one receptacle, equal time kind of thing. Regular duplex receptacles are actually racist.


Especially the ivory and white ones.


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## HertzHound (Jan 22, 2019)

The job I’m on now has family bathrooms. This way you don’t have to change your kid on the wall next to the hand dryers in the gang bathrooms. 

Although it was called “ Family restroom” on the plans, it will have signage that says gender neutral. Now when the kid grows up you can tell them how you put them on a leash and changed them in the gender neutral bathrooms. Whatever happened to the days you pissed in a trough with no privacy?

I’ll pull the inspectors leg next week and ask him if he heard about the new code change about the two receptacles in the gender neutral bathrooms. Thanks guys. :vs_laugh:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

splatz said:


> that's a good point. Instead of duplex receptacles we should be installing one inlet / one receptacle, equal time kind of thing. Regular duplex receptacles are actually racist.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Guys, this is not the hidden chat area.. Let's keep it clean and friendly. Thanks


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