# Kitchen wiring



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

So when you say you're wiring on the side, what does that mean? Do you have all the licenses and insurances or are you undercutting those of us that carry that overhead and have to charge accordingly? If you are wiring without these things, I see no reason to help you.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Time to crack open the ol' Code book. :whistling2:


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

Which side are you wiring?


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

backstay said:


> So when you say you're wiring on the side, what does that mean? Do you have all the licenses and insurances or are you undercutting those of us that carry that overhead and have to charge accordingly? If you are wiring without these things, I see no reason to help you.


I agree. Trunkslammers be dammed


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## EMeis1114 (Mar 5, 2011)

backstay said:


> So when you say you're wiring on the side, what does that mean? Do you have all the licenses and insurances or are you undercutting those of us that carry that overhead and have to charge accordingly? If you are wiring without these things, I see no reason to help you.


By wiring on the side I mean- I am a licensed electrician running work, but do mostly commercial work and only do sidework occasionally. And I'm really busy so was hoping I could save some time by asking other electricians here. As far as the undercutting you mention- I believe that if they had wanted you to do the work they would have asked you. Are you in the union by any chance? It sounds like you have a case of union self entitlement.


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

EMeis1114 said:


> By wiring on the side I mean- I am a licensed electrician running work, but do mostly commercial work and only do sidework occasionally. And I'm really busy so was hoping I could save some time by asking other electricians here. As far as the undercutting you mention- I believe that if they had wanted you to do the work they would have asked you. Are you in the union by any chance? It sounds like you have a case of union self entitlement.


 Side work usually means no insurance, permits,or overhead and puts you in direct competition with people who do this as thier main sourse of income. 
You probably low balled a local contractor to get the job and you dont have a clue how to do it . Now you show up on a proffesional electricians forum asking other contractors how to do your side job.:no:


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## EMeis1114 (Mar 5, 2011)

Mr Rewire said:


> Side work usually means no insurance, permits,or overhead and puts you in direct competition with people who do this as thier main sourse of income.
> You probably low balled a local contractor to get the job and you dont have a clue how to do it . Now you show up on a proffesional electricians forum asking other contractors how to do your side job.:no:


First off I am a professional electrician, second off I'm a damn good one. Third off, I'm not taking work from anyone and I'm just trying to help someone who's in a pinch out. Where are you getting these assumptions? You obviously think your better than every other electrician on this forum and have your head so far up your a** that you wouldn't be able to get work if it was yelling your name. I'm just looking for advise so that I can save myself some time. It's not about knowing everything as long as you know who to ask. If you're just here to criticize don't waste my time. If any body actually has something to offer I would appreciate it. Thanks.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

EMeis1114 said:


> Here's the deal. I do mostly commercial work but am rewiring a house on the side and am looking for some pointers on the kitchen circuitry. So there's gonna be a gas stove, over the range microwave, refrigerator and dishwasher. I'm looking for help as far as which circuits can be shared with my 2 20A sabc, and which should be dedicated. I also need to know the best locations for microwave and dishwasher outlets. Any help would be greatly appreciated.


I'd leave the sabc by themselves for your countertops and island or peninsula.

Run a dedicated for the dishwasher, is there a disposal? Run one for that. 
What kind of fridge? I pull a dedicated for the fridge pretty much regardless of model.
Is there a hood? Pull a ckt for that and share it with the igniter for the stove. If there's no hood, put the igniter on the fridge ckt. 
Pull a ckt for the lights and you're done.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

EMeis1114 said:


> ........Where are you getting these assumptions? ..........


I'd say from here:



EMeis1114 said:


> ....... I ....... am rewiring a house on the side.........



So, are you a journey-card holder doing the trunkslammer bit (not all AHJs allow JWs to work for themselves)? Do you have liability insurance? Are you registered with your state as a contractor? Have you posted the required bonds to do the job? Are you going to report the income to the IRS? Has a permit been obtained? Is sales tax required by law to be collected and forwarded to the state?

In short, are you doing the job *legally*? I'm not trying to slam your abilities, I'm just asking about whether you're operating within the law (as real contractors do). Or are you just trying to make a quick buck by doing the job 'under the table'?


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## EMeis1114 (Mar 5, 2011)

480sparky said:


> I'd say from here:
> 
> So, are you a journey-card holder doing the trunkslammer bit (not all AHJs allow JWs to work for themselves)? Do you have liability insurance? Are you registered with your state as a contractor? Have you posted the required bonds to do the job? Are you going to report the income to the IRS? Has a permit been obtained? Is sales tax required by law to be collected and forwarded to the state?
> 
> In short, are you doing the job legally? I'm not trying to slam your abilities, I'm just asking about whether you're operating within the law (as real contractors do). Or are you just trying to make a quick buck by doing the job 'under the table'?


Did you read my last post? Yes it's legal, and I don't have time for this. Mind your own business. If your not answering my question don't waste my time.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

EMeis1114 said:


> Did you read my last post? Yes it's legal, and I don't have time for this. Mind your own business. If your not answering my question don't waste my time.



I guess I won't bother with someone so self-serving and arrogant then.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

EMeis1114 said:


> Did you read my last post? Yes it's legal, and I don't have time for this. Mind your own business. If your not answering my question don't waste my time.


Nobody is obligated to answer your question and fwiw, I answered your question.


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

Just putting my limited $0.02 in here...

This is CMR 527 Section 12 which covers permits briefly in Rules #6 - #8, Rule #9 bounces you to MGL 141.

http://www.lawlib.state.ma.us/source/mass/cmr/cmrtext/527CMR12.pdf

MGL 141 says who can do what, with what licenses or lack thereof.

http://www.malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXX/Chapter141


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## EMeis1114 (Mar 5, 2011)

Rudeboy said:


> I'd leave the sabc by themselves for your countertops and island or peninsula.
> 
> Run a dedicated for the dishwasher, is there a disposal? Run one for that.
> What kind of fridge? I pull a dedicated for the fridge pretty much regardless of model.
> ...


Thank you.


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## EMeis1114 (Mar 5, 2011)

480sparky said:


> I guess I won't bother with someone so self-serving and arrogant then.


I didn't mean to sound that way as I'm not. I just felt like you were assuming that I'm not a licensed professional, which I am and that I'm doing the job illegally which Im not. I just needed some answers and didnt feel like the details were important. I appreciate your time and if there's anything I can help you with let me know.


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

We get a slew of homeowners asking questions, don't take it personally. If you're on the up and up, you have nothing to prove or worry about.


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## tquick79 (Apr 30, 2011)

The guy asked a question, answer it an move on. I've noticed there are a few people on here that think they are one step better then a master electrician and maybe they are but that's not the point. This is a place to ask questions and help out your fellow electricians because not everybody starts out as a master electrician. If we all knew everything there was to know about the electrical field we wouldn't need the forum now would we.....


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

The smartest thing you can do is run 12/3 HR. and 12/3 between receptacles..

The 12/3 between receptacles will *only* work if you are using point of use GFI protection..

I never use feed through GFI.. I think it is hack.. 

Use 22cu. in. plastic boxes.. not the blue Carlon crap.. .. and you will have no problem getting the GFI's to fit..


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

B4T said:


> The smartest thing you can do is run 12/3 HR. and 12/3 between receptacles..
> 
> The 12/3 between receptacles will only work if you are using point of use GFI protection..
> 
> ...


Never use feed thru gfi???.....you draw some of the silliest lines of what you will and will not do.

You will bury a box, but wont use s gfi as it was intended


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

B4T said:


> I never use feed through GFI.. I think it is hack..


I see far more non fed through GFCI's fail than ones that are fed through. Don't what it is maybe it's just the luck of the draw, I don't know.


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## Tiger (Jan 3, 2008)

Massachusetts has strict enforcement of licenses as illustrated on their listing of penalties. See below. They fine people for advertising for electrical work w/o a license on Craigslist, for not pulling a permit, for working under a name not on your license. A GC could let an unlicensed electrician rough a house, report him and refuse to pay on the contract.

"The Board placed a $3,000 civil administrative penalty on Webster, who agreed to enter into a consent agreement in order to settle this case. In the agreement, Webster admitted that the Board has never issued him a license to practice as an electrician in Massachusetts. Webster admitted that on or about Aug. 22, 1997, he provided electrical services in Westport, failed to notify the Inspector of Wires within five days of commencing electrical work at his job site, and failed to apply for the requisite permit to perform these services."


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Never use feed thru gfi???.....you draw some of the silliest lines of what you will and will not do.
> 
> You will bury a box, but wont use s gfi as it was intended


I don't bury boxes.. don't you get that yet.. they are fine when I leave the job and I have no control what the HO does after my inspection..

I have NEVER used feed through GFI's on any on my jobs..


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Jlarson said:


> I see far more non fed through GFCI's fail than ones that are fed through. Don't what it is maybe it's just the luck of the draw, I don't know.


People don't test them once a month and I think that has a lot to do with the failure rate.. 

EVERY time I see GFI's on a kitchen counter, I ask the HO if them test them once a month..

I always get the same answer.. NO.. I didn't know about that..


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Never use feed thru gfi???.....you draw some of the silliest lines of what you will and will not do.


He sure does. 



> You will bury a box, but wont use s gfi as it was intended



:laughing: Perplexing ain't it. :laughing::laughing:


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

B4T said:


> People don't test them once a month and I think that has a lot to do with the failure rate..
> 
> EVERY time I see GFI's on a kitchen counter, I ask the HO if them test them once a month..
> 
> I always get the same answer.. NO.. I didn't know about that..


I have never met anyone that tests their GFCI's.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> Here's the deal. I do mostly commercial work but am rewiring a house on the side and am looking for some pointers on the kitchen circuitry


That makes perfect sense to me.




> So there's gonna be a gas stove, over the range microwave, refrigerator and dishwasher. I'm looking for help as far as which circuits can be shared with my 2 20A sabc, and which should be dedicated. I also need to know the best locations for microwave and dishwasher outlets.


 
Micro= dedicated 20A. Put a recep in the cabinet above and to the side (so it doesn't end up behind the vent). Sometimes it's smart to leave a stub and use a cut in box in the back of the cabinet.

Gas range can use SABC. 

Refer can use SABC. I'd suggest keeping it off the GFCI.

DW/disposals here are dedicated 20A with the HR gong to the disp sw box and a 3 wire to a 1/2 switched recep under the sink (which is generally next to the DW).

If the disp switch is in a good location for a c-top recep, I run a 3 wire HR and use one leg for the receps and the other forr the DW/Disp.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

.........


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

B4T said:


> I never use feed through GFI.. I think it is hack..


That is bizarre. Truly bizarre. I use the feed through option all the time. Am I a hack? 



> Use 22cu. in. plastic boxes.. not the blue Carlon crap.. ..


I use Carlon boxes almost exclusively. I think they're among the best non-metallic boxes ever made. I guess I must be a double hack.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

B4T said:


> I don't bury boxes.. don't you get that yet.. they are fine when I leave the job and I have no control what the HO does after my inspection..


Liar, liar, pants on fire!

If you didn't know they were being buried, you would have no need for the maps. You've already admitted you have maps of these jobs you do with all the box locations, and you posted a picture with a tape measure and the sod rolled back, so obviously you know they will get covered up at some point.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Peter D said:


> ............I use Carlon boxes almost exclusively. I think they're among the best non-metallic boxes ever made. I guess I must be a double hack.


Now, if you were to line-load GFCIs, and bury them behind the drywall in Carlon blues, then you'd be a TripleHack! :laughing:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Now, if you were to line-load GFCIs, and bury them behind the drywall in Carlon blues, then you'd be a TripleHack! :laughing:


What if I added a manufactured housing splice kit to the mix? :laughing:


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## Jcode (Mar 24, 2011)

Rudeboy said:


> I'd leave the sabc by themselves for your countertops and island or peninsula.
> 
> Run a dedicated for the dishwasher, is there a disposal? Run one for that.
> What kind of fridge? I pull a dedicated for the fridge pretty much regardless of model.
> ...


Agree with all the above. My addition, the way we do it anyhow, is run a 14/3 to under the cabinet, below the sink for a Dishwasher and Disposal homerun. 14/2 from that box up to switch box near sink. Red tied to the white on 14/2. Feeds the switch. Come back down on the black to plug. Break tab. Now the Black is HR for dishwasher. Red is now a switched Disposal. Saves some time on 2 separate homeruns and this is assuming dishwasher is close enough to plug in under sink (drilling through side of cabinet near the back.

With that said I think I remember in 2011 NEC you now need a neutral at every switch box, so I think that would end that.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BBQ said:


> He sure does.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well.. the alternative wiring method would be direct splice wire nuts with shrink tubing stuck in the dirt..

I just came back from HD with a package of .. "Underground Direct Burial Wire Connections".. I will post what the package says on the appropriate thread.. :laughing::thumbup::laughing:


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

BBQ said:


> :laughing: Perplexing ain't it. :laughing::laughing:


He's an odd duck isn't he :laughing:


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

EMeis1114 said:


> By wiring on the side I mean- I am a licensed electrician running work, but do mostly commercial work and only do sidework occasionally. And I'm really busy so was hoping I could save some time by asking other electricians here. As far as the undercutting you mention- I believe that if they had wanted you to do the work they would have asked you. Are you in the union by any chance? It sounds like you have a case of union self entitlement.


No, I'm not in the IBEW. And maybe if you can't take the heat, you should stay out of the KITCHEN!


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Jlarson said:


> He's an odd duck isn't he :laughing:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

B4T said:


> Well.. the alternative wiring method would be direct splice wire nuts with shrink tubing stuck in the dirt..


No, the alternative method would be to make sure the covers of the boxes remain accessible without the need for a map. But no matter how hard any of us try, you can't be convinced of that. :no:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

I don't want to hijack this thread over this continuous flow of BS.. but let me reply this way..

Those of you who stand on a spackle bucket and scream "code compliant" need to remember who is writing the check.. 

Also NONE of you have supplied one shred of proof this is a hazard to people or wildlife that frequent the area..

I can stick a splice in the dirt like a hack and not even I would know where it is..

BUT.. because a box is involved.. some of you get your panties in a knot..:no:

If you can't apply common sense to this.. then there is no hope for you..


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

B4T said:


> II can stick a splice in the dirt like a hack and not even I would know where it is..
> 
> BUT.. because a box is involved.. some of you get your panties in a knot..:no:


 
Wasn't this event like two years ago?

It's your legacy :laughing:





Proper installation: :thumbsup:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

220/221 said:


> Wasn't this event like two years ago?
> 
> It's your legacy :laughing:


Tell me about it.. :thumbup:

My legacy will be all about beating dead horses back to life and little old ladies on a fixed income paying $6450.00 for a basic 150 amp. service change.. :laughing:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

B4T said:


> ...............Also NONE of you have supplied one shred of proof this is a hazard to people or wildlife that frequent the area...............



Oh, NOW I get it!

I can ignore any Code rule I want as long as *I* feel it's not a danger!

Kewl... I get to bury flying splices, overfuse machines and not ground anything.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Oh, NOW I get it!
> 
> I can ignore any Code rule I want as long as *I* feel it's not a danger!
> 
> Kewl... I get to bury flying splices, overfuse machines and not ground anything.


I am talking about ONE specific item.. stop being a TOOL.. :no::laughing:


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

B4T said:


> The smartest thing you can do is run 12/3 HR. and 12/3 between receptacles..
> 
> The 12/3 between receptacles will *only* work if you are using point of use GFI protection..
> 
> ...


Yeah you really are a strange dude. You mean to tell me that you will install roughly 5 or 6 GFI's in a kitchen (at each and every countertop outlet) instead of getting by with just 2? And 12'3? Why or who in their right mind would ever use that? Hahahahahahaha what a whacko you are.........:laughing:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

B4T said:


> I am talking about ONE specific item.. stop being a TOOL.. :no::laughing:



OK, so I get to ignore ONE Code reference for as long as I want. That's fine. I'll ignore........... 90.2(A). 



Now I'll have free reign to do as I please!


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

steelersman said:


> Yeah you really are a strange dude. You mean to tell me that you will install roughly 5 or 6 GFI's in a kitchen (at each and every countertop outlet) instead of getting by with just 2? And 12'3? Why or who in their right mind would ever use that? Hahahahahahaha what a whacko you are.........:laughing:


Someone who only comes around once a week should ask permission before speaking.. 

I charge for those GFI's and people have NEVER told me they wanted only (2) when I explain how they work..

They don't like the idea of losing multiple receptacles when a GFI goes bad..


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## tquick79 (Apr 30, 2011)

steelersman said:


> Yeah you really are a strange dude. You mean to tell me that you will install roughly 5 or 6 GFI's in a kitchen (at each and every countertop outlet) instead of getting by with just 2? And 12'3? Why or who in their right mind would ever use that? Hahahahahahaha what a whacko you are.........:laughing:


Amen, I was about to say the same thing, 12/3 would be a waste of money for this job because you simply don't need it....!!


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

B4T said:


> Someone who only comes around once a week should ask permission before speaking..



Lucky for me I have the freedom to post as often as I want without permission. Maybe you should move to a Middle Eastern country somewhere, where they would make me ask for permission to speak first....:whistling2:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

tquick79 said:


> Amen, I was about to say the same thing, 12/3 would be a waste of money for this job because you simply don't need it....!!


It depends how you are selling your job..

Running the 12/3 between GFI's allows me to break up the load so the customer is not overloading circuits..

Running only (2) GFI's and you are stuck with the wiring and nothing can be changed..

This is how I sell my kitchen wiring.. flexibility is priceless.. :thumbsup:


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

steelersman said:


> Yeah you really are a strange dude. You mean to tell me that you will install roughly 5 or 6 GFI's in a kitchen (at each and every countertop outlet) instead of getting by with just 2? And 12'3? Why or who in their right mind would ever use that? Hahahahahahaha what a whacko you are.........:laughing:


Amen dude. I've always seen a kitchen with gfi's in every slot as a SURE SIGN of amateurism....I've never met a professional in their right mind who would do that...just like burying PVC boxes.


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## rexowner (Apr 12, 2008)

Jcode said:


> With that said I think I remember in 2011 NEC you now need a neutral at every switch box, so I think that would end that.


2011 404.2(c) is for "switches controlling lighting loads", so I think you 
will still be OK with the D/D.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Amen dude. I've always seen a kitchen with gfi's in every slot as a SURE SIGN of amateurism....I've never met a professional in their right mind who would do that...just like burying PVC boxes.


Who ever said you were that bright to begin with.. :no:

Selling point of use GFI's is the best bang the customer can get.. you just don't understand up selling a job..


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## HugoStiglitz (Apr 11, 2011)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Amen dude. I've always seen a kitchen with gfi's in every slot as a SURE SIGN of amateurism....I've never met a professional in their right mind who would do that...just like burying PVC boxes.


One of my favorites was 2 GFIs in the same 2 gang box. Saw this while working at APG in MD. I'm assuming several buildings were like this since many like this were built at the same time and were the same layout. Oh, the gov't and our money, haha.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Amen dude. I've always seen a kitchen with gfi's in every slot as a SURE SIGN of amateurism....I've never met a professional in their right mind who would do that...just like burying PVC boxes.


I've seen quite a few houses with ever outside outlet was a GFCI. I remember one really big house, lots outlets out on retaining walls and such on multiple circuits and panels. Complaints of GFCI's tripping randomly even with nothing plugged in, started digging and found they where all line-loaded


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

B4T said:


> It depends how you are selling your job..


Usually the customer wants the most cost effective job, which would then cancel out wiring a kitchen in such a silly way....




B4T said:


> This is how I sell my kitchen wiring.. flexibility is priceless.. :thumbsup:


Sounds like overkill to me. Even when I remodeled my own kitchen, I didn't do something as silly as that. What kind of flexibility do you think you are giving your customers? I still have the flexibility to unplug my toaster from one outlet and plug it back in to a different outlet and it still works just the same......Hahahahahahaha what a crock:laughing:


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## Toolmaker (Feb 19, 2011)

Dude, kitchen layouts are in every diy book the depot sells, but I'm bored so here goes....

two 20a circuits for the counter tops, 2' from edge then 4' center to center. Don't connect them to any thing else

dedicated 20a's for the fridge, microwave, dishwasher, and disposal

50a for the range....or 30a 240 for range tops....or 40a 240 for built in ovens....or pull a drop off the micro for the 120 line to a gas range

pull appropiate wire for anything else requested


NEXT, 12/3 on a 120v circuit??? Isn't two hot legs sharing a neutral the very definition of an unbalanced load?? 

FINALLY !!! on a personal note, I HATE covering second shift. I just sit here all evening waiting for something to break.


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

Toolmaker said:


> NEXT, 12/3 on a 120v circuit??? Isn't two hot legs sharing a neutral the very definition of an unbalanced load??


No. Theoretically speaking, if the two loads are identical, then the current on the shared neutral would be zero. It's the same thing as a dryer outlet, a range outlet, and so on. Those are two hot legs sharing a neutral.


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## HugoStiglitz (Apr 11, 2011)

steelersman said:


> No. Theoretically speaking, if the two loads are identical, then the current on the shared neutral would be zero.


Assuming were not talking about a 3 phase service...then sure


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## Toolmaker (Feb 19, 2011)

dryer and range are 240v and the current doesn't run to ground, in a 120v the current runs to ground... 20 + 20 = 40a on a 12ga neutral conductor


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

B4T said:


> I don't want to hijack this thread over this continuous flow of BS.. but let me reply this way..
> 
> Those of you who stand on a spackle bucket and scream "code compliant" need to remember who is writing the check..


Cool, as long as I get paid I can violate the code all I want. Got it. :no:



> Also NONE of you have supplied one shred of proof this is a hazard to people or wildlife that frequent the area..


I'd never say it's a hazard. I would say it's an amateur level hack job, as I have been saying all along, and will continue to say as long as the subject comes up. 



> If you can't apply common sense to this.. then there is no hope for you..


Yes, common sense tells me this is a troubleshooting nightmare. Say you have a problem and need to do some troubleshooting. Before you can even start you need to get out the map and start digging up boxes before you've even opened up your first splice to troubleshoot. As shown in 220's picture, I don't need a map and a shovel to find that box if I ever need to open it.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Toolmaker said:


> dryer and range are 240v and the current doesn't run to ground, in a 120v the current runs to ground... 20 + 20 = 40a on a 12ga neutral conductor


It would be 20+20=40 if the two ungrounded conductors were on the same phase, when you put them on different phases (ie. a DP breaker or a properly wired MWBC) the max neutral current possible is 20 amps, in your example.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

B4T said:


> It depends how you are selling your job..
> 
> Running the 12/3 between GFI's allows me to break up the load so the customer is not overloading circuits..
> 
> ...


How do you do this on old work? You stuff 2 12/3 cables into an old work box with a GFCI?  Even if you use a deep smart box, you're still jamming that thing full.


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

Toolmaker said:


> dryer and range are 240v and the current doesn't run to ground, in a 120v the current runs to ground... 20 + 20 = 40a on a 12ga neutral conductor


The current always runs to ground. Don't you realize, the neutral is a grounded conductor? You might want to get into some refresher classes or something if you think that the current adds up to 40 amps on a 12-3 MWBC.


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## jlmran (Feb 25, 2011)

steelersman said:


> The current always runs to ground. Don't you realize, the neutral is a grounded conductor? You might want to get into some refresher classes or something if you think that the current adds up to 40 amps on a 12-3 MWBC.


If the system became ungrounded would the current stop running? I know No.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Peter D said:


> How do you do this on old work? You stuff 2 12/3 cables into an old work box with a GFCI?  Even if you use a deep smart box, you're still jamming that thing full.


Just use these...:laughing:


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> Just use these...:laughing:


Even with the slim GFCI, it's still no picnic with 2 12/3's in the box. If I ever had to use 12/3 in and out (which would never happen because that's just silly to wire that way :laughing: ) I would use a deep 4" square with plaster ring.


----------



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

im not going to cut on anybodys tradeskills or way of doing things, but i would think that putting a gfci in every kit. countertop plug would be overkill..that (to me) would be the same as pulling a home run to every bedroom in the house,and baths,and hallways etc. but i say if your clients dont mind spending the extra money and its a selling point for you... go for it


----------



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

Peter D said:


> Even with the slim GFCI, it's still no picnic with 2 12/3's in the box. If I ever had to use 12/3 in and out (which would never happen because that's just silly to wire that way :laughing: ) I would use a deep 4" square with plaster ring.


 i agree here, four square,mudring,Done


----------



## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

jlmran said:


> If the system became ungrounded would the current stop running? I know No.


No because the neutral is still connected to ground so the current would keep on rolling.


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

rnr electric said:


> im not going to cut on anybodys tradeskills or way of doing things, but i would think that putting a gfci in every kit. countertop plug would be overkill..


I think what most people object to is B4T's earlier declaration that using the feed through method with a GFCI is hack. It's bizarre and strange, to say the least.


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## jlmran (Feb 25, 2011)

steelersman said:


> No because the neutral is still connected to ground so the current would keep on rolling.


How would the neutral be connected to ground if the SYSTEM became ungrounded?


----------



## tquick79 (Apr 30, 2011)

B4T said:


> It depends how you are selling your job..
> 
> Running the 12/3 between GFI's allows me to break up the load so the customer is not overloading circuits..
> 
> ...


This is how I would do it. Just run 2 12/2 hr , one goes to one gfci and the other to the other gfci, and then wire any other remaining receps off of the load side of those gfci's. However if you would like a gfci at every location on those two circuits just wire all of them off of the line side, no need for 12/3....


----------



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

Peter D said:


> I think what most people object to is B4T's earlier declaration that using the feed through method with a GFCI is hack. It's bizarre and strange, to say the least.


 i totally agree, i do it LINE/LOAD all the time and dont consider myself a hack at all,on the contrary, i believe a 20 amp gfi will trip at or about 20 amps. add all the gfi's you want, when you reach a 20 amp limit its gonna trip the breaker if not the gfi first. if i worried about a gfi tripping (as they all do) the last thing i would do is install more of them than i had to.


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

jlmran said:


> I know No.


What the eff is that?


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

rnr electric said:


> ......... i believe a 20 amp gfi will trip at or about 20 amps. ........


Fail.


----------



## HugoStiglitz (Apr 11, 2011)

rnr electric said:


> i totally agree, i do it LINE/LOAD all the time and dont consider myself a hack at all,on the contrary, i believe a 20 amp gfi will trip at or about 20 amps. add all the gfi's you want, when you reach a 20 amp limit its gonna trip the breaker if not the gfi first. if i worried about a gfi tripping (as they all do) the last thing i would do is install more of them than i had to.


Are you sure that they trip at 20 amps? News to me. I thought they only trip when it senses a current difference.


----------



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Fail.


 sorry.. bout 4 michelob int this conversation, meant "circuit" not gfi


----------



## jlmran (Feb 25, 2011)

steelersman said:


> What the eff is that?


I could have said "I think no", but that would have been incorrect, because I know the answer is No.

I'm just having fun by nitpicking your statement where you said current always 'runs to ground'. You knocked a guy for his ignorance of MWBC while partially demonstrating your own ignorance of where currents are running to.


----------



## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

jlmran said:


> I could have said "I think no", but that would have been incorrect, because I know the answer is No.
> 
> I'm just having fun by nitpicking your statement where you said current always 'runs to ground'. You knocked a guy for his ignorance of MWBC while partially demonstrating your own ignorance of where currents are running to.


Ok the current is running back to it's source.


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

steelersman said:


> Ok the current is running back to it's source.


"Its", not "it's".


----------



## jlmran (Feb 25, 2011)

steelersman said:


> Ok the current is running back to it's source.


Sorry... Just feel ornery tonight. Bored.


----------



## jlmran (Feb 25, 2011)

Peter D said:


> "Its", not "it's".


Wow.....


----------



## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

Peter D said:


> "Its", not "it's".


I'm not sure I believe you on this one. It seems to me like I'm right about this one. But I'm not perfect so maybe you're right. But I kind of doubt it.


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

steelersman said:


> I'm not sure I believe you on this one. It seems to me like I'm right about this one. But I'm not perfect so maybe you're right. But I kind of doubt it.


Think about it. 

"The current is running back to it is [it's] source."


----------



## tquick79 (Apr 30, 2011)

steelersman said:


> No. Theoretically speaking, if the two loads are identical, then the current on the shared neutral would be zero. It's the same thing as a dryer outlet, a range outlet, and so on. Those are two hot legs sharing a neutral.


Technicaly I don't think on a dryer or a range it's two hot legs sharing a neutral, it's only one hot leg utilizing the neutral to provide 110v to the appliance for the parts in it that require 110v to operate..


----------



## HugoStiglitz (Apr 11, 2011)

Peter D said:


> Think about it.
> 
> "The current is running back to it is [it's] source."


Correct. No apostrophes with pronouns. Class is adjourned.


----------



## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

tquick79 said:


> Technicaly I don't think on a dryer or a range it's two hot legs sharing a neutral, it's only one hot leg utilizing the neutral to provide 110v to the appliance for the parts in it that require 110v to operate..


that's also true...


----------



## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

Peter D said:


> Think about it.
> 
> "The current is running back to it is [it's] source."


Yes I get it now.


----------



## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

THis post is such a set up....TROLLS are lurking in this one.....How many guys can we piss off with this post...First off its a side jobber, no insurance or anything, so lets piss off the real contractors, second of all he has no idea what hes doing so now we can piss off all the smartie pants...Hmm so far it has all the makings of a good slugfest...


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

In Massachusetts, it's perfectly legal for anyone with a journeyman's license to get permits and do "sidework" as it's commonly called. Not only can a j-man get a permit, but a homeowner can also sign an insurance waiver allowing said j-man to do the work. 

So, before you jump all over the man, what he's doing is completely above board in Mass. He does not need insurance or a contractor's license to do this work.


----------



## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

Peter D said:


> In Massachusetts, it's perfectly legal for anyone with a journeyman's license to get permits and do "sidework" as it's commonly called. Not only can a j-man get a permit, but a homeowner can also sign an insurance waiver allowing said j-man to do the work.
> 
> So, before you jump all over the man, what he's doing is completely above board in Mass. He does not need insurance or a contractor's license to do this work.


Just jealous guys is all. I do the same thing. I'm licensed and insured, but I don't have a contractors license. So I guess I'm just a side-jobber. Too bad for all you tightwads.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Peter D said:


> In Massachusetts, it's perfectly legal for anyone with a journeyman's license to get permits and do "sidework" as it's commonly called. Not only can a j-man get a permit, but a homeowner can also sign an insurance waiver allowing said j-man to do the work.
> 
> So, before you jump all over the man, what he's doing is completely above board in Mass. He does not need insurance or a contractor's license to do this work.


Can't J-men own a company with up to one helper too in Mass?


BBQ, insight?


----------



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

Peter D said:


> In Massachusetts, it's perfectly legal for anyone with a journeyman's license to get permits and do "sidework" as it's commonly called. Not only can a j-man get a permit, but a homeowner can also sign an insurance waiver allowing said j-man to do the work.
> 
> So, before you jump all over the man, what he's doing is completely above board in Mass. He does not need insurance or a contractor's license to do this work.


 lets be clear.. im not looking for an arguement here(but rather,INQUIRING!!). if a journeyman can pull permits,and do this kind of work what is the motivation to get your masters liscense. the reason i ask is i grew up in maine (just up the road),and my j liscense only allowed me to supervise the job,be on the job and supervise helpers(in place of master liscense holder) but not write contracts,or do side work that required permits.


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

Ok i didnt realize that...just get tired of all the trolls. This smelled like one and it was my mistake...This dude seems cool... sorry man...

I would pretty much do what the fellow from SF bay area said..If your looking to help someone out than I would use the feed through on the gfci. And by code you can put the fridge on the counter circuit but I wouldnt recommend it. Definatly run HR for micro and dishwasher. If you run a 20 amp line for the dishwasher you might be able to also put a disposal on it. 
And for what its worth i dont know why the Blue boxes are so evil....I usually use metal boxes in a kitchen because its just better IMO. The grey boxes have that sh itty little metal tab that does a crappy job holding the outlet securly... Unless the dishwasher comes with a cord you have to hard wire it and install a breaker lock in the panel. By far the easiest and cheapest way out. Yes its right you can look through the archives here ......and as far as the mirowave goes I usually leave a whip and cut it into the cabinet on the finish... More often than not it winds up in the wrong spot or there is a huge gap between the front of the outlet box and back of the cabinet... Its just as easy cutting it in the cabinet.


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Say a customer is spending $50,000.00 on new kitchen cabinets and granite counter tops..

You come in and sell him (2) required 20 amp. circuits with (2) feed through GFI outlets..

I come in and sell him (2) required 20 amp. circuits with 12/3 between point of use GFI's..

I explain about customizing the load to suit the way they like the kitchen appliances set up and the layout can always be changed..

Who do you think is going to get the job..


----------



## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

its = possessive pronoun, like "his" or "hers."

it's = contraction of "it is"


----------



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

erics37 said:


> its = possessive pronoun, like "his" or "hers."
> 
> it's = contraction of "it is"


Yeah but in this case, there are multiple electrons as his subject with a possessive apostrophe. So his correct punctuation would have read

Its' source


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> Can't J-men own a company with up to one helper too in Mass?


Yes, in MA I can, as a J-man run a business that employes up one apprentice.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

erics37 said:


> its = possessive pronoun, like "his" or "hers."
> 
> it's = contraction of "it is"



It is only something a **** would care about. :laughing:


----------



## doubleoh7 (Dec 5, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Yes, in MA I can, as a J-man run a business that employes up one apprentice.


 
Hay BBQ, let me call you crustie cookie. C'mon beefy tits, let me call you crustie cookie. Just one time! If you dont't let me call you crustie cookie, B4T is gonna smear your pasty white ass with Scotchkote.


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## EMeis1114 (Mar 5, 2011)

backstay said:


> No, I'm not in the IBEW. And maybe if you can't take the heat, you should stay out of the KITCHEN!


That hurts lol


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

B4T said:


> Say a customer is spending $50,000.00 on new kitchen cabinets and granite counter tops..
> 
> You come in and sell him (2) required 20 amp. circuits with (2) feed through GFI outlets..
> 
> ...



Probably you because your rates are too low.


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## EMeis1114 (Mar 5, 2011)

rnr electric said:


> lets be clear.. im not looking for an arguement here(but rather,INQUIRING!!). if a journeyman can pull permits,and do this kind of work what is the motivation to get your masters liscense. the reason i ask is i grew up in maine (just up the road),and my j liscense only allowed me to supervise the job,be on the job and supervise helpers(in place of master liscense holder) but not write contracts,or do side work that required permits.


The advantage of having a masters license is that you can hire other journeyman, each with an apprentice, and also journeyman can't work as a sub.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Peter D said:


> Probably you because your rates are too low.


Of course.. it has nothing to do with designing a better job for the customer or making the layout flexible enough to be changed anytime..

But you can keep thinking what ever you like.. :no:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> Of course.. it has nothing to do with designing a better job for the customer


Many EEs specify point of use GFCIs, it makes sense and I will gladly provide them when paid for it.

But unless you are getting more money to provide them you are a fool to do so for free. ............. really. Why not just hand the customer cash?


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Many EEs specify point of use GFCIs, it makes sense and I will gladly provide them when paid for it.
> 
> But unless you are getting more money to provide them you are a fool to do so for free. ............. really. Why not just hand the customer cash?


I am getting my price for the job.. where did I ever say I was giving them out for free?? :blink::blink:

I may be the highest price the customer gets.. but I am giving the best job money can buy..

You don't buy granite counter tops and new maple cabinets.. just to skimp on the electric.. 

To this day.. I have never had a customer tell me they wanted feed through GFI's to save money..


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Many EEs specify point of use GFCIs, it makes sense and I will gladly provide them when paid for it.


Not in this place.. :blink::blink::blink:

I have had more people tell me I'm nuts and you are the ONLY one who thinks point of use GFI's is a good idea..

Good to see great minds think a like.. :laughing:


----------



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

B4T said:


> I am getting my price for the job.. where did I ever say I was giving them out for free?? :blink::blink:
> 
> I may be the highest price the customer gets.. but I am giving the best job money can buy..
> 
> ...


I never had a customer that knew what a GFCI line/load or feed thru was.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

backstay said:


> I never had a customer that knew what a GFCI line/load or feed thru was.


They will once you explain it to them..

ALL the people I talk to that have trouble with feed through GFI's hate the idea of having a receptacle not working and paying me to find out why..

When I suggest installing point of use GFI's, they immediately go for the idea..


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> I am getting my price for the job.. where did I ever say I was giving them out for free?? :blink::blink:


If you leave them out would your customer be looking for a credit?

If not you are giving them away.



> I may be the highest price the customer gets.. but I am giving the best job money can buy..


Damn, I just about died from disbelief reading that.:laughing:



> You don't buy granite counter tops and new maple cabinets.. just to skimp on the electric..


Actually they do exactly that, you must live on another planet.

They have no trouble dropping a butt load of money on cabinets and appliances but generally don't want to spend any on the wiring.



> To this day.. I have never had a customer tell me they wanted feed through GFI's to save money..


You say the funnest things, I am sure what you said is true but it is still funny.

How many homeowners (honestly, don't BS) have come up and said 'I don't want feed through GFCIs'

If you say anymore than one I say you are full of poopy.:laughing:


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

B4T said:


> .............To this day.. I have never had a customer tell me they wanted feed through GFI's to save money..


Because John & Jane Customer have no freaking clue what 'a feed-through GFCI' means.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> When I suggest installing point of use GFI's, they immediately go for the idea..


Great and at that point you should also explain that your price goes up at least $25.00 per additional GFCI.

I bet Macmike would add even more per location.


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

As I am walking through the job or looking at the plan, is where I explain point of use GFI's and using 3 - wire feeds for all kitchen receptacles..

People don't care what a GFI is until the thing stops working and they are "inconvenienced".. that ruffles the feathers very quickly..

They call a EC to tell them what is needed to make a kitchen the best it can be..

I give them options on lighting.. but the GFI thing never changes..


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Great and at that point you should also explain that your price goes up at least $25.00 per additional GFCI.
> 
> I bet Macmike would add even more per location.


Nope.. I change all the GFI's on the string.. better to start off with all new parts since I am there anyway..

I can't see how you could just change one GFI since it would be on the load side of the one feeding it.. :blink:


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

EMeis1114 said:


> The advantage of having a masters license is that you can hire other journeyman, each with an apprentice, and also journeyman can't work as a sub.



A Journeyman can work as a sub,,he just can't do it for another Journeyman unless he has a Master Electricians license.

A Journeyman can do anything a master can do But he can only have one apprentice working for him.

A Master Electricians allows you to hire as many J-man and helpers as long as it is one for one or you can have all journeyman but you can't have more helpers the journeyman Electricians.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

HARRY304E said:


> A Journeyman can work as a sub,,he just can't do it for another Journeyman unless he has a Master Electricians license.
> 
> A Journeyman can do anything a master can do But he can only have one apprentice working for him.
> 
> A Master Electricians allows you to hire as many J-man and helpers as long as it is one for one or you can have all journeyman but you can't have more helpers the journeyman Electricians.


MA rules, I assume. Which are not universal.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

480sparky said:


> MA rules, I assume. Which are not universal.


Yes and yes.


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

480sparky said:


> MA rules, I assume. Which are not universal.


Yup mass rules,, New hamshire is more strict
http://www.nh.gov/safety/divisions/firesafety/building/electrician/index.html



From: NH Bureau of Electrical Safety and Licensing 
Subject: Self-Employed Journeyman Electricians ​
This letter is a follow-up to your journeyman’s renewal application which implies that you may be self-employed. 
*When working in the State of "New Hampshire", please remember, *if your business includes electrical installations for heat, light or power as referenced in RSA 319-C:2 III, please understand that RSA 319-C:2 IV states that a journeyman electrician shall be employed by a master electrician, except as provided in RSA 319-C:10 and that they must work under the direction & supervision of a master electrician. An example of self-employment would be; if at the year’s end, you received a 1099 form (IRS self-employed/sub-contractor payment record) instead of a W2 form (IRS employee payment record) from the master electrician or company you are working for. A journeyman electrician performing electrical installations in the State of New Hampshire must be an employee of a master electrician. They can not act as a subcontractor. 
A journeyman electrician found working on his own account, *in the State of "New Hampshire", *would be in violation as noted in RSA 319-C:15 I "a person shall be guilty of a misdemeanor, if a natural person, or a felony if any other person who, (a) makes electrical installations without being licensed under the chapter; and (d) violates any provision of this chapter or rule adopted by the board." Pursuant to RSA 319-C:12 II (g), willful or repeated violation of the provisions of this chapter, the Electricians’ Board may decide to undertake disciplinary action against the licensee. 
A New Hampshire master electrician who obtains a permit from a city or town *in ‘New Hampshire" *to allow a journeyman electrician, who isn’t an employee, to perform electrical installations would be guilty of unprofessional conduct and subject to a disciplinary proceeding before the Board.


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

B4T said:


> To this day.. I have never had a customer tell me they wanted feed through GFI's to save money..


So instead they like having a GFI outlet at every single counter top outlet? Silly I say. And ugly too.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

B4T said:


> To this day.. I have never had a customer tell me they wanted feed through GFI's to save money


Most customers don't have a clue what that is, they are just nodding their head at you. As long as there is power to the receptacle and the breaker doesn't trip, they are happy. The only reason you are getting the work is because you are cheaper, even with the higher material and labor costs, than your competition.


----------



## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

Never fails, we always run off topic!! Big ego's around here !

Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

steelersman said:


> So instead they like having a GFI outlet at every single counter top outlet? Silly I say. And ugly too.


I will keep that in mind when you start signing my check..

Till then go tell it to someone who cares what you think..I don't :thumbsup:

The customer is happy and I thought they were the reason I was there.. :blink:


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

B4T said:


> Till then go tell it to someone who cares what you think..I don't :thumbsup:


If you want people to stop responding to you, please stop saying the ridiculous things that you do on a public internet forum. Otherwise, don't start crying when someone challenges something that you say.


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

HackWork said:


> The only reason you are getting the work is because you are cheaper, even with the higher material and labor costs, than your competition.


And I bet you got this info from sitting there rubbing your crystal balls..

Exactly how do you know what profit I turn on my jobs or what my overhead is.. :blink:

So this mean getting the job has nothing to do with my selling skills..


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

B4T said:


> Nope.. I change all the GFI's on the string.. better to start off with all new parts since I am there anyway..
> 
> I can't see how you could just change one GFI since it would be on the load side of the one feeding it.. :blink:


Wait...did you just say if only one is bad you change them all out anyway? :blink:


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Peter D said:


> If you want people to stop responding to you, please stop saying the ridiculous things that you do on a public internet forum. Otherwise, don't start crying when someone challenges something that you say.


Don't you have a HD isle to go troll..


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Peter D said:


> Wait...did you just say if only one is bad you change them all out anyway? :blink:


Read the reply I said about that.. :no:


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

B4T said:


> Don't you have a HD isle to go troll..


Nah, I was just there this morning. :thumbup:


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)




----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

B4T said:


> And I bet you got this info from sitting there rubbing your crystal balls..
> 
> Exactly how do you know what profit I turn on my jobs or what my overhead is.. :blink:


From your past posts.

BTW, I'm a little sad that Harry sent me a PM welcoming me back but you didn't. I'll remember this...


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

HackWork said:


> From your past posts.
> 
> BTW, I'm a little sad that Harry sent me a PM welcoming me back but you didn't. I'll remember this...


I didn't know you were missing.. :laughing:


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

B4T said:


> I didn't know you were missing.. :laughing:


I was gone for almost 6 months :whistling2:


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

EMeis1114 said:


> By wiring on the side I mean- I am a licensed electrician running work, but do mostly commercial work and only do sidework occasionally. And I'm really busy so was hoping I could save some time by asking other electricians here. As far as the undercutting you mention- I believe that if they had wanted you to do the work they would have asked you. Are you in the union by any chance? It sounds like you have a case of union self entitlement.


This isn't a case of union or nonunion. Sounds like your a trunk slammin loser.:no:


----------



## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> dedicated 20a's for the *fridge*, microwave, dishwasher, *and disposal
> *


Two _*extra*_ circuits.



> "Its", not "it's".


Possession = apostrophe only in nouns ( I believe). Since it is a mere pronoun, it is not worthy.




> It's the same thing as a dryer outlet, a range outlet, and so on. Those are two hot legs sharing a neutral


.

In my experience_, most_ dryer motors are 120V. _Some_ ranges utilize 120V for low heat. _Most_ ranges use 120V for the timer/controls. I've not yet seen a cooktop with a neutral connection.


Lastly.....I only install extra GFCI receprs when it makes sense, like different bathrooms. Less things to fail in the system.


----------



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

HackWork said:


> I was gone for almost 6 months :whistling2:


I still hate you


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> I still hate you


Do you really?


ETA: I made a nice post to Doubleoh7 today, you should read it,


----------



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

HackWork said:


> Do you really?
> 
> ETA: I made a nice post to Doubleoh7 today, you should read it,


I haven't been back since you made me mad enough to threaten murder


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> I haven't been back since you made me mad enough to threaten murder


If you get mad over things said on the interweb, you're doing it all wrong. At least I did my job well :thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

HackWork said:


> If you get mad over things said on the interweb, you're doing it all wrong. At least I did my job well :thumbup::thumbup:


Welcome back even though you don't like me as much anymore.
:thumbsup:


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Rudeboy said:


> Welcome back even though you don't like me as much anymore.
> :thumbsup:


No no no, I said that I liked you here :thumbup:


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## EMeis1114 (Mar 5, 2011)

Chris1971 said:


> This isn't a case of union or nonunion. Sounds like your a trunk slammin loser.:no:


Hey, whatever it takes right? I'm payin the bills, I've got nothing to prove to you mr.forum troll guy.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

HackWork said:


> No no no, I said that I liked you here :thumbup:


:laughing:

Tomato, _tomato._


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## ktech (Apr 17, 2011)

*damn good one?*



EMeis1114 said:


> First off I am a professional electrician, second off I'm a damn good one. Third off, I'm not taking work from anyone and I'm just trying to help someone who's in a pinch out. Where are you getting these assumptions? You obviously think your better than every other electrician on this forum and have your head so far up your a** that you wouldn't be able to get work if it was yelling your name. I'm just looking for advise so that I can save myself some time. It's not about knowing everything as long as you know who to ask. If you're just here to criticize don't waste my time. If any body actually has something to offer I would appreciate it. Thanks.


Damn good electrician? And you need help on residential wiring? How incompetent!!! READ THE CODE BOOK its not rocket science.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

ktech said:


> Damn good electrician? And you need help on residential wiring? How incompetent!!! READ THE CODE BOOK its not rocket science.


Awesome second post.
:thumbup:


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## Jag91304 (May 6, 2011)

EMeis1114 said:


> Here's the deal. I do mostly commercial work but am rewiring a house on the side and am looking for some pointers on the kitchen circuitry. So there's gonna be a gas stove, over the range microwave, refrigerator and dishwasher. I'm looking for help as far as which circuits can be shared with my 2 20A sabc, and which should be dedicated. I also need to know the best locations for microwave and dishwasher outlets. Any help would be greatly appreciated.


4 d microwave u need d specs cause some require receptacle in a certain spot for d cord. N 4 d dishwasher receptacle goes under d sink.


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## EMeis1114 (Mar 5, 2011)

ktech said:


> Damn good electrician? And you need help on residential wiring? How incompetent!!! READ THE CODE BOOK its not rocket science.


If you had read my earlier posts you'd understand. Seriously.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Jag91304 said:


> 4 d microwave u need d specs cause some require receptacle in a certain spot for d cord. N 4 d dishwasher receptacle goes under d sink.


Don't come on this forum texting. If you can't type a complete sentence, you don't need to be doing electrical work.


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

Jag91304 said:


> 4 d microwave u need d specs cause some require receptacle in a certain spot for d cord. N 4 d dishwasher receptacle goes under d sink.


I have never seen a dishwasher with a cord. We always hardwire them.


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## EMeis1114 (Mar 5, 2011)

EMeis1114 said:


> If you had read my earlier posts you'd understand. Seriously.


And I know the code requirements, but there's 10 different right ways. Just wanted some insight.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Jag91304 said:


> 4 d microwave u need d specs cause some require receptacle in a certain spot for d cord. N 4 d dishwasher receptacle goes under d sink.


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## tquick79 (Apr 30, 2011)

steelersman said:


> I have never seen a dishwasher with a cord. We always hardwire them.


Mine has a cord, I just put an outlet under the sink with half controled but a switch for the disposal and the other side constant hot for the dishwasher..


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

EMeis1114 said:


> Hey, whatever it takes right? I'm payin the bills, I've got nothing to prove to you mr.forum troll guy.


:laughing::laughing::laughing::2guns:


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

EMeis1114 said:


> Here's the deal. I do mostly commercial work but am rewiring a house on the side and am looking for some pointers on the kitchen circuitry. So there's gonna be a gas stove, over the range microwave, refrigerator and dishwasher. I'm looking for help as far as which circuits can be shared with my 2 20A sabc, and which should be dedicated. I also need to know the best locations for microwave and dishwasher outlets. Any help would be greatly appreciated.


The apprentice needs help.:laughing:


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

I was gone for 2 days and this thread blew up. :blink:

:nuke:


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