# 210.52(E) outdoor rec



## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

So technically is this to code? (just on a kick lately-review time ya know) never gave this much thought.

1 and 2 family homes,you need an outside rec,ACCESSIBLE While STANDING at grade level.

you have the front door,and a 8' porch. The rec is placed to the left of the door.

Does this meet the requirement?:jester:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Uh, is the recep accessible?


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

leland said:


> So technically is this to code? (just on a kick lately-review time ya know) never gave this much thought.
> 
> 1 and 2 family homes,you need an outside rec,ACCESSIBLE While STANDING at grade level.
> 
> ...


Sure for people with 8' arms.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

leland said:


> So technically is this to code? (just on a kick lately-review time ya know) never gave this much thought.
> 
> 1 and 2 family homes,you need an outside rec,ACCESSIBLE While STANDING at grade level.
> 
> ...


Is the recep. accessible from grade level-- not the deck-?

When you say "8' deck" I am assuming you are not talking about the height off grade.

If you can stand on grade and plug a cord into the recep. and it's not over 6'6" above grade, then you are good to go-- of course, this could be interpreted differently depending on the inspector.


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

Standard front porch,8' deep,nice railings and posts.:thumbsup:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

leland said:


> Standard front porch,8' deep,nice railings and posts.:thumbsup:



Betcha it looks nice from the street. So where is the recep located?


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

I would say no. I don't think you would be able to reach it from grade. I have seen rec placed so that it will take care of the rec on the porch and the one accessible from grade.


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

480sparky said:


> Betcha it looks nice from the street. So where is the recep located?



Yes it does,and the Irisis are starting to bud.

Rec just to the left of the door,so one can plug in a radio or something.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

leland said:


> Yes it does,and the Irisis are starting to bud.
> 
> Rec just to the left of the door,so one can plug in a radio or something.



Left of the door. Check.

How high off the floor?


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

480sparky said:


> Left of the door. Check.
> 
> How high off the floor?




18"- :no::laughing:


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

leland said:


> Yes it does,and the Irisis are starting to bud.
> 
> Rec just to the left of the door,so one can plug in a radio or something.


That is a great convenience receptacle but it does not appear the recep. will fulfill the requirements of 210.52(E).

Remember grade is grade level not deck level. If you can stand on grade and plug it in then you are probably good to go.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

So porches and decks aren't 'grade levels'? "Grade" only applies to dirt and grass? 

What about driveways and sidewalks? If my POCO cash register is required to be 4-6' 'above grade', I can't install it over a sidewalk or driveway because there's no dirt to stand on?

Suppose there's a 6x6 PVC box buried under the grass (no dirt, just grass!)? Is that 'grade'? 6c6 PVC boxes can't be buried below exterior receps because that would cause the recep to fall outside the requirement of 510.52(E)?


Sorry, I'll say the front porch floor, regardless of the material it's made of, is grade.


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

We use 480's description of grade to justify raised meter heights and raised switch heights for services in flood prone area's 'round here. My question would be is the deck under the outlet, not dirt/aka grade? If so it is compliant.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Sorry, I'll say the front porch floor, regardless of the material it's made of, is grade.


You are certainly free to disagree but that has long been the interpretation around here. I have never seen a landscape plan or any other plan that references decks as grade. 

Correct me if I am wrong Ken but wasn't there a time when the outdoor recep was permitted from a deck as long as there was direct access to grade from the deck, ie, stairs.

The NEC 2008 has specifically added the words accessible while standing at grade level-- fwiw---


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Here is another question for you. If you interpret that the deck is grade then when you measure the 6'6" from grade you are measuring from the deck.

Okay now the deck is 7' off grade with no stair access to ground (what I call grade). In this scenario you would allow the recep on the deck at 18" above the deck boards as satisfying 210.52(E)? I don't see it. If deck is grade, IMO you would have to accept the above scenario.


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

What if the the house is built on pillars on a lake? Is the water grade? The _*intent*_ of the code was to make sure there is a receptacle near the door. Someone chose the wrong terminology, it was approved, and now people are putting pvc boxes under sod.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Aren't you now required in 2008 to have one on the deck AND one reachable from grade level also? Which if you are able to reach it from the ground should meet both codes.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> Aren't you now required in 2008 to have one on the deck AND one reachable from grade level also? Which if you are able to reach it from the ground should meet both codes.


In general, you are required to have one on a deck.



> 210.52(E)(3) Balconies, Decks, and Porches. Balconies, decks, and porches that are accessible from inside the dwelling unit shall have at least one receptacle outlet installed within the perimeter of the balcony, deck, or porch. The receptacle shall not be located more than 2.0 m (6½ ft) above the balcony, deck, or porch surface.
> Exception to (3): Balconies, decks, or porches with a usable area of less than 1.86 m2 (20 ft2) are not required to have a receptacle installed.


The argument is, simply put, what is considered grade? The deck or the ground underneath it.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

knowshorts said:


> What if the the house is built on pillars on a lake? Is the water grade? The _*intent*_ of the code was to make sure there is a receptacle near the door. Someone chose the wrong terminology, it was approved, and now people are putting pvc boxes under sod.


I disagree. Where did you get the intent from? Can you substantiate that claim? 210.52(E) does not state by a door but on a deck. Why would you need it to be by the door? That is often a bad spot IMO.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> In general, you are required to have one on a deck.
> 
> 
> 
> The argument is, simply put, what is considered grade? The deck or the ground underneath it.


 
I say grade is ground level(dirt). A deck is ABOVE grade. Always has been here. I believe the new deck requirement is in addition to the regular outside receps.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> I say grade is ground level(dirt). A deck is ABOVE grade. Always has been here. I believe the new deck requirement is in addition to the regular outside receps.


I agree. If you read my earlier post I stated that, in this area (NC) , grade being the earth under the deck, was always the acceptable interpretation of the rule.


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## Voltech (Nov 30, 2009)

210.52 E (1) One-Family and Two-Family Dwellings. For a onefamily
dwelling and each unit of a two-family dwelling *that
is at grade level*, at least one receptacle outlet accessible
while standing at grade level and located not more than
2.0 m (61⁄2 ft) above grade shall be installed at the front and
back of the dwelling

If the porch is 8' off the ground, is that dwelling built at grade level?


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

jwjrw said:


> I say grade is ground level(dirt). A deck is ABOVE grade. Always has been here. I believe the new deck requirement is in addition to the regular outside receps.


 You're correct.:thumbsup:


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Voltech said:


> If the porch is 8' off the ground, is that dwelling built at grade level?


What difference does that make? A house does not need be built at grade and it has nothing to do with the req. of 210.52(E). What is important is where grade is measured from. 

A house is rarely built at grade level. Usually the foundation is below grade. The point is where do you measure from. It is clear to me but obviously not to everyone.


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

its still confusing to me


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

In fact if you put a receptacle calling dirt the grade in a home like this and you will be required to remove it south of I-10 in Mississippi

At least that's what I was told by a Hancock county inspector, and FEMA guidelines also are in line with the floor of the house being "grade"


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

"I don't know, honey. I know the city says an outlet
is required, but you put it where you think is best!
Dinner will be ready in half an hour."​


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## Voltech (Nov 30, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> What difference does that make? A house does not need be built at grade and it has nothing to do with the req. of 210.52(E). What is important is where grade is measured from.
> 
> *A house is rarely built at grade level.* Usually the foundation is below grade. The point is where do you measure from. It is clear to me but obviously not to everyone.


I thought he was talking about 8' off grade, without another measurement thats how I took it.

Many houses here are built at grade and on stilts and even over water. Not everywhere is the same.


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## Voltech (Nov 30, 2009)

nolabama said:


> In fact if you put a receptacle calling dirt the grade in a home like this and you will be required to remove it south of I-10 in Mississippi
> 
> At least that's what I was told by a Hancock county inspector, and FEMA guidelines also are in line with the floor of the house being "grade"


Im south of I-10 in MS in hancock , crazy things happen here.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Voltech said:


> Im south of I-10 in MS in hancock , crazy things happen here.


Looks like you need an outlet on one front and one rear post to me!:laughing:
Really you do:thumbsup:


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> Looks like you need an outlet on one front and one rear post to me!:laughing:
> Really you do:thumbsup:


I agree. At least around here you would. Coastal areas do make some amendments because of high water(flooding), etc.


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I agree. At least around here you would. Coastal areas do make some amendments because of high water(flooding), etc.



Amendments- key.

as far as the house on pillars in the water. you would need 1 on the deck/porch. The AHJ or local amendment would not require the grade one- there would be no grade.


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## Voltech (Nov 30, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I agree. At least around here you would. Coastal areas do make some amendments because of high water(flooding), etc.


We did a house last week where no electrical could be any less than 6 ft from the floor on the 1st story..I have not been there yet but when I do I will take some pics. They said they had to make up the panel from a 4' ladder.


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

I was once told by a member of cmp 5, that when it comes to definitions of items in the code you first look in the NEC article 100. Then if it's not there you refer to Websters. 
From Websters dictionary:
Main Entry: *1grade* 
Pronunciation: \ˈgrād\
Function: _noun_ 
Etymology: Latin _gradus_ step, degree, from Latin _gradi_ to step, go; akin to Lithuanian _gridyti_ to go, wander
Date: 1526
_1 a __(1)_ *:* a position in a scale of ranks or qualities _(2)_ *:* a stage in a process *b* *:* a degree of severity in illness <grade III carcinoma> *c* *:* a class organized for the work of a particular year of a school course *d* *:* a military or naval rank
*2 a* *:* a class of things of the same stage or degree *b* *:* a mark indicating a degree of accomplishment in school *c* *:* a standard of food quality
*3 a : the degree of inclination of a road or slope; also : a sloping road b : a datum or reference level; especially : ground level
4* *:* a domestic animal with one parent purebred and the other of inferior breeding


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

*b : a datum or reference level; especially : ground level

That could work.
*


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

grade is ground, period.


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