# what's the deal with these "go to college" assholes?



## TokenFemale

maybe because i'm a grill, but probably mostly because i seem to be smart, people keep telling me to go to school.

who wants to go to effing school, especially in this day and age. i spent a year dicking around in stem and all university professors are arrogant dicks who no speak good engrish and can't cut me slack for Real Life Problems like running out of money or family emergencies or getting sick. journeymen will eff with you but at least they have a legitimate business need for doing so; professors just seem to enjoy the power trip.

what do i say next time someone tells me to be an EE: "please drop 30k on my lap for my college education kthanx"? "why would i want to stare at a computer screen all day when i could be doing cool and exciting dangerous sh!t instead?" further snappy comebacks much appreciated.


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## MikeFL

I wish I was a grill. Then I'd have yummy hamburgers and steaks all around me and get to spend the nicest days just sitting on the patio!


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## HackWork

I'd like a girled cheese sandwich with bacon right now.


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## TGGT

Huh.


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## chicken steve

TokenFemale said:


> further snappy comebacks much appreciated.


number *#1*, you're not any smarter via your gender, *#2* you should have some respect for academica *#3* as a private EC one can live far better that an EC ~CS~


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## Signal1

'Cause I'm just a grill, a little 'ol me
Well don't let me out of your sight
Oh I'm just a grill, all pretty and petite
So don't let me have any rights

Oh...I've had it up to here!


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## chicken steve

HackWork said:


> I'd like a girled cheese sandwich with bacon right now.


Yer so predicable.......~CS~


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## 99cents

It would sure be lousy if every generation had to re-invent brain surgery. Tell me how that kind of knowledge can be passed on without formal education.

If you don't want to go to effing school, don't.


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## 99cents

If people are telling you that you shouldn't be an electrician because you're a girl, tell them to phone a guy when their lights go out.


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## RePhase277

If you don't go to school, how else will the global elites indoctrinate you into the cult of victimization?


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## MechanicalDVR

Even one with an EE degree can work in the trades until they get it out of their system and feel like a change of pace and desire less bodily wear and tear.


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## dreamcrusher28

What are some of the legitimate reasons journeyman can F with you? If you're talking good natured ribbing, that's fine. If you mean treat you like crap and give you a hard time, there are zero reasons for it. And anyone saying different is an idiot i hope you never have the misfortune to work with like I did years ago.


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## 99cents

RePhase277 said:


> If you don't go to school, how else will the global elites indoctrinate you into the cult of victimization?


Every homicidal dictator in history - Pol Pot, Stalin, Hitler, Idi Amin included - persecuted intellectuals first. It's standard practise.


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## MechanicalDVR

99cents said:


> Every homicidal dictator in history - Pol Pot, Stalin, Hitler, Idi Amin included - persecuted intellectuals first. It's standard practise.


That's because most of that ilk are non physical pacifist types. Soft targets.


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## chicken steve

Smart targets , can't have them, can we....? ~CS~


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## PlugsAndLights

MechanicalDVR said:


> That's because most of that ilk are non physical pacifist types. Soft targets.


Or it's because they're respected and usually criticize authoritarian leaders.
P&L


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## MechanicalDVR

PlugsAndLights said:


> Or it's because they're respected and usually criticize authoritarian leaders.
> P&L


You need a 'set' to resist. People won't follow a milk toast very far.


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## 99cents

MechanicalDVR said:


> You need a 'set' to resist. People won't follow a milk toast very far.


Milk toast? Blech. I thought this was a discussion about cheese and bacon.


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## 3DDesign

TokenFemale said:


> grill, effing, dicking, dicks who no speak good engrish, eff, sh!t instead?" f.


An education would allow you to communicate like an intelligent adult.


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## RePhase277

3DDesign said:


> An education would allow you to communicate like an intelligent adult.


Well, maybe. Desire and self-determination play a bigger part.


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## 99cents

3DDesign said:


> An education would allow you to communicate like an intelligent adult.


Tokin' Female?


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## kg7879

There is nothing with education and it comes in all forms. The apprenticeship model is probably the best way to learn and gain job experience and I wish colleges and businesses would incorporate the apprenticeship model everywhere because it works.

If I had the time, patience, and money I would get a construction management degree because later in life it would be useful not to be out in field conditions all day.


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## TokenFemale

99cents said:


> It would sure be lousy if every generation had to re-invent brain surgery. Tell me how that kind of knowledge can be passed on without formal education.


it's called the internet m8, and it's free.
apprenticeship is another one that comes to mind however.


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## TokenFemale

MechanicalDVR said:


> Even one with an EE degree can work in the trades until they get it out of their system and feel like a change of pace and desire less bodily wear and tear.


yes, this is the plan, i'm applying to educational school institutions so i have something to do over long layoffs.

managing construction workers sounds like an awful headache and it's beyond me why any of y'all would willingly inflict such pain & misery upon yourselves. masochists! (that's a big college word)


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## MechanicalDVR

TokenFemale said:


> yes, this is the plan, i'm applying to educational school institutions so i have something to do over long layoffs.
> 
> managing construction workers sounds like an awful headache and it's beyond me why any of y'all would willingly inflict such pain & misery upon yourselves. masochists! (that's a big college word)


The ability to get any job you like and apply for is always a plus. I have a degree I've never used for anything along with several smaller degrees and certifications that look good on a resume. I have taken plenty of classes at community colleges in the past when I had free time, often on the employers tab.


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## macmikeman

TokenFemale said:


> maybe because i'm a grill, but probably mostly because i seem to be smart, people keep telling me to go to school.
> 
> who wants to go to effing school, especially in this day and age. i spent a year dicking around in stem and all university professors are arrogant dicks *who no speak good engrish and can't cut me slack for Real Life Problems like running out of money or family emergencies or getting sick. * journeymen will eff with you but at least they have a legitimate business need for doing so; professors just seem to enjoy the power trip.
> 
> what do i say next time someone tells me to be an EE: "please drop 30k on my lap for my college education kthanx"? "why would i want to stare at a computer screen all day when i could be doing cool and exciting dangerous sh!t instead?" further snappy comebacks much appreciated.



How dare any poster here at this forum make fun of asian peoples accents. Why the nerve !


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## TokenFemale

dreamcrusher28 said:


> What are some of the legitimate reasons journeyman can F with you?


"show up to work on time" and "pay attention" are two of the major ones. also, "pretend you care about our ridiculously restrictive safety regulations".

the professors who intellectually humiliate their students should be shot tho, pol pot and hitler did good.


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## TokenFemale

MechanicalDVR said:


> I have taken plenty of classes at community colleges in the past when I had free time, often on the employers tab.


never managed to get the boss to pay for it, but my extensive, if piecemeal math education has served me very well in DC theory.

i wish i didn't live in the country, i wouldn't have to commute so far to do this sort of thing. are there any reputable online drafting or other trades-related classes? i feel like the njatc teaches you this stuff at the end of their curriculum but i can't find their courselist to confirm.


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## MechanicalDVR

TokenFemale said:


> never managed to get the boss to pay for it, but my extensive, if piecemeal math education has served me very well in DC theory.
> 
> i wish i didn't live in the country, i wouldn't have to commute so far to do this sort of thing. are there any reputable online drafting or other trades-related classes? i feel like the njatc teaches you this stuff at the end of their curriculum but i can't find their courselist to confirm.


I'd bet there are all kinds of good online schools that offer things you'd like. There is a thread on here with plenty of online electrical subjects.


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## 99cents

TokenFemale said:


> it's called the internet m8, and it's free.
> apprenticeship is another one that comes to mind however.


You want to study brain surgery on line? For free?

Good god.


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## 99cents

MechanicalDVR said:


> I'd bet there are all kinds of good online schools that offer things you'd like. There is a thread on here with plenty of online electrical subjects.


Yes, go to Coursera. Nothing on brain surgery.


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## MechanicalDVR

99cents said:


> Yes, go to Coursera. Nothing on *brain surgery*.


I mastered that years ago, never saved a patient.


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## 99cents

TokenFemale said:


> "show up to work on time" and "pay attention" are two of the major ones. also, "pretend you care about our ridiculously restrictive safety regulations".
> 
> the professors who intellectually humiliate their students should be shot tho, pol pot and hitler did good.


I'm trying to figure out who this troll really is.


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## macmikeman

99cents said:


> I'm trying to figure out who this troll really is.


Impersonating a female....... hmmmmmmm. McClary


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## 99cents

macmikeman said:


> Impersonating a female....... hmmmmmmm. McClary


Who was it that called receptacles "retesticals"? I'm thinking that guy


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## TokenFemale

MechanicalDVR said:


> I'd bet there are all kinds of good online schools that offer things you'd like. There is a thread on here with plenty of online electrical subjects.


yes the trouble is geting the certificate, what? the nice thing about this trade is that studying on your own actually counts for something, none of this credentialism bs you see in white collar jobs.


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## 99cents

TokenFemale said:


> yes the trouble is geting the certificate, what? the nice thing about this trade is that studying on your own actually counts for something, none of this credentialism bs you see in white collar jobs.


You should take a course on anger management.


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## chicken steve

TokenFemale said:


> yes the trouble is geting the certificate, what? the nice thing about this trade is that studying on your own actually counts for something, none of this credentialism bs you see in white collar jobs.


A lot of doors _open_ with credentials , even doors that have_ little to do_ with said creds.

~CS~


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## MechanicalDVR

99cents said:


> Who was it that called receptacles "retesticals"? I'm thinking that guy






99cents said:


> Borgi got his a$$ ripped by a good Alberta boy. Same thing would happen on the job. Alberta sparkies have retesticals.


Me thinks that would be a Canadian!


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## MechanicalDVR

TokenFemale said:


> yes the trouble is geting the certificate, what? the nice thing about this trade is that studying on your own actually counts for something, none of this credentialism bs you see in white collar jobs.


Why is getting the certificate a problem? Most online classes you can print them out when you are done.


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## MechanicalDVR

99cents said:


> You should take a course on anger management.


All those classes just served to be another thing that ticked me off!


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## 99cents

MechanicalDVR said:


> Me thinks that would be a Canadian!


Busted.


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## MechanicalDVR

99cents said:


> Busted.


Are those "retesticals" sometimes controlled by 'C witches'?


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## TokenFemale

MechanicalDVR said:


> Why is getting the certificate a problem? Most online classes you can print them out when you are done.


yeah but does anybody care? i need my ticket to play in the adult world and for that you need to shell out los dineros $$$

maybe not for you old guys so much but us spring chickens like moving around and using power tools. i couldn't dredge up the motivation to sit in another lecture right now if my life depended on it! nothing to do with learning, plenty to do with how **** academia is atm!


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## MechanicalDVR

TokenFemale said:


> yeah but does anybody care? i need my ticket to play in the adult world and for that you need to shell out los dineros $$$
> 
> maybe not for you old guys so much but us spring chickens like moving around and using power tools. i couldn't dredge up the motivation to sit in another lecture right now if my life depended on it! nothing to do with learning, plenty to do with how **** academia is atm!


There are no free lunches, if you want something better than what you have you need to pay the dues to get there. If it's sitting in a class or in a chair in front of the computer screen.


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## Jlarson

TokenFemale said:


> *these "go to college" assholes*


I like that. 


Troll or not I'm using that **** at some point.


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## TokenFemale

MechanicalDVR said:


> There are no free lunches, if you want something better than what you have you need to pay the dues to get there. If it's sitting in a class or in a chair in front of the computer screen.


ah, a RW construction worker, how refreshing! *wink, wink*

do you not agree that the value of a BA is overinflated atm? most online schools are scams! i wish we had something like open university here in the states. i may attend yet!

i've noticed that tradesmen seem to undervalue themselves; most of my problems with the guys i work with seem to do with validation. "but you are smart and nice and really funny too!"

i studied at the ivy league but i choose to be here. most electricians seem like pretty happy people when they forget that they're blue collar workers.


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## MechanicalDVR

TokenFemale said:


> ah, a RW construction worker, how refreshing! *wink, wink*
> 
> do you not agree that the value of a BA is overinflated atm? most online schools are scams! i wish we had something like open university here in the states. i may attend yet!
> 
> i've noticed that tradesmen seem to undervalue themselves; most of my problems with the guys i work with seem to do with validation. "but you are smart and nice and really funny too!"
> 
> i studied at the ivy league but i choose to be here. most electricians seem like pretty happy people when they forget that they're blue collar workers.



Yeah I guess right wing fits.

Yes a BA can be very over rated. 

"Smart and nice" don't tell anybody. Thanks, I like being funny. Not everyone gets my humor.

Blue collar has it pluses and benefits.


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## chicken steve

TokenFemale said:


> i've noticed that tradesmen seem to undervalue themselves; most of my problems with the guys i work with seem to do with validation. "but you are smart and nice and really funny too!"
> 
> i studied at the ivy league but i choose to be here. most electricians seem like pretty happy people when they forget that they're blue collar workers.



Blue collars BUILT America , White collars simply took credit 

~CS~


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## Going_Commando

chicken steve said:


> Blue collars BUILT America , White collars simply took credit, took huge financial risks, gambled on unproven technology, and propelled the United States to becoming an industrial superpower, and the richest, most prosperous country in the history of the world.
> 
> ~CS~


Couldn't agree more. :thumbsup:


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## telsa

chicken steve said:


> Blue collars BUILT America , White collars simply took credit
> 
> ~CS~


Stop.

Stop.

Stop.

BOTH collars built America.

Being a White Collar does not mean that your are a RENTIER.


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## MechanicalDVR

chicken steve said:


> Blue collars BUILT America , White collars simply took credit
> 
> ~CS~


The men in my family have always been tradesmen and artisans. From engineers on down the line. We have all done well with some in the absolute highest levels of their trades. 

There is a great deal of family pride that two of them have built companies that have made the list of top ten contractors in the country several years running.

God bless the working man.


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## bill39

dreamcrusher28 said:


> What are some of the legitimate reasons journeyman can F with you? If you're talking good natured ribbing, that's fine. If you mean treat you like crap and give you a hard time, there are zero reasons for it. And anyone saying different is an idiot i hope you never have the misfortune to work with like I did years ago.


Bullying is such a huge topic everywhere these days but it's still hard to define.

It's similar to when the debate was what constitutes ****. A US Supreme Court justice said it best: "I know it when I see it." I can't think of a better way to summarize it.

Just because you find something offensive does not make it so.


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## bill39

bill39 said:


> Bullying is such a huge topic everywhere these days but it's still hard to define.
> 
> It's similar to when the debate was what constitutes ****. A US Supreme Court justice said it best: "I know it when I see it." I can't think of a better way to summarize it.
> 
> Just because you find something offensive does not make it so.


I learned something today. This site automatically edited a certain word in my post (p*rn) and inserted ****.


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## macmikeman

bill39 said:


> I learned something today. This site automatically edited a certain word in my post (p*rn) and inserted ****.



Welcome Bill to the New World Order. It only gets better and better!


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## 99cents

bill39 said:


> I learned something today. This site automatically edited a certain word in my post (p*rn) and inserted ****.


Pron comes in many forms. Some people get off on politicians. Whatever.


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## dreamcrusher28

I knew when I was being treated like **** and responded quiclkly and appropriately to the scumbag in question. It was actually pretty easy for me to figure out. I imagine it could be difficult for some.


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## bill39

dreamcrusher28 said:


> I knew when I was being treated like **** and responded quiclkly and appropriately to the scumbag in question. It was actually pretty easy for me to figure out. I imagine it could be difficult for some.



When I started the apprenticeship program in 1974 most of the J-men were WWII vets who were very matter-of-fact and showed little regard for a lowly apprentice. I learned quickly to keep my mouth shut and do what I was told. 

There was very little room for backtalk or complaining. I wouldn't call any of it bullying or actual mistreatment, just knowing that I was expendable. There was no HR department or thought of going to the owner/boss to complain. It all made me a better person.

I will say it was very satisfying when I finally topped out to not have to take their BS anymore. It's been a fantastic career and would do it all over again.


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## MechanicalDVR

bill39 said:


> When I started the apprenticeship program in 1974 most of the J-men were WWII vets who were very matter-of-fact and showed little regard for a lowly apprentice. I learned quickly to keep my mouth shut and do what I was told.
> 
> There was very little room for backtalk or complaining. I wouldn't call any of it bullying or actual mistreatment, just knowing that I was expendable. There was no HR department or thought of going to the owner/boss to complain. *It all made me a better person.*
> 
> I will say it was very satisfying when I finally topped out to not have to take their BS anymore. *It's been a fantastic career and would do it all over again.*


I had a very similar anointing into the trade myself and much of the wrath came from my own Uncles that were WWII combat vets. I would also do it all over again.


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## Cl906um

What doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Soon it will just roll off your shoulders. Bullying is over emphasized. I was tough to sticks and stones... Now a days kids end up with shrinks and social workers quivering in a corner. No wonder China is taking over.


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## MechanicalDVR

Cl906um said:


> What doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Soon it will just roll off your shoulders. Bullying is over emphasized. I was tough to sticks and stones... Now a days kids end up with shrinks and social workers quivering in a corner. No wonder China is taking over.


Yeah cause in China the kids really get hit with sticks and stones.


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## Cl906um

MechanicalDVR said:


> Yeah cause in China the kids really get hit with sticks and stones.


No. They are hardened and not such a bunch of pampered friggin babies that need to be validated for every participation trophy they earn.


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## TokenFemale

bill39 said:


> When I started the apprenticeship program in 1974 most of the J-men were WWII vets who were very matter-of-fact and showed little regard for a lowly apprentice. I learned quickly to keep my mouth shut and do what I was told.
> 
> There was very little room for backtalk or complaining. I wouldn't call any of it bullying or actual mistreatment, just knowing that I was expendable. There was no HR department or thought of going to the owner/boss to complain. It all made me a better person.
> 
> I will say it was very satisfying when I finally topped out to not have to take their BS anymore. It's been a fantastic career and would do it all over again.


i find this attitude on one hand a bit macho and on the other quite sensible. had a bit of a conversation with my journeyman the other day.

"did they start you off by just sitting and watching? i can't learn that way."

"yeah that's how everyone goes. my first six months i just observed and carried tools".

"yeah i didn't get anything out of that."

"you're supposed to get something out of that."

"i didn't. i think my first journeyman was offended when i complained too."

((something to the effect of "it's not about what you want"))

"i know i'm not complaining, just observing."

the new guy i'm working with has been pretty good at keeping me busy fiddling with stuff which is what i need. i think there's some room for compromise here: you want people to arrive at journeyman properly qualified.

on a bit of a tangent, how long did it take you guys to develop decent dexterity with the nuts and bolts because i'm lightning quick with my computer and on the piano and with a kitchen knife but i'm all thumbs with this stuff.


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## 99cents

TokenFemale said:


> i find this attitude on one hand a bit macho and on the other quite sensible. had a bit of a conversation with my journeyman the other day.
> 
> "did they start you off by just sitting and watching? i can't learn that way."
> 
> "yeah that's how everyone goes. my first six months i just observed and carried tools".
> 
> "yeah i didn't get anything out of that."
> 
> "you're supposed to get something out of that."
> 
> "i didn't. i think my first journeyman was offended when i complained too."
> 
> ((something to the effect of "it's not about what you want"))
> 
> "i know i'm not complaining, just observing."
> 
> the new guy i'm working with has been pretty good at keeping me busy fiddling with stuff which is what i need. i think there's some room for compromise here: you want people to arrive at journeyman properly qualified.
> 
> on a bit of a tangent, how long did it take you guys to develop decent dexterity with the nuts and bolts because i'm lightning quick with my computer and on the piano and with a kitchen knife but i'm all thumbs with this stuff.


I still hit my thumb with a hammer. Hammers are dangerous.


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## MechanicalDVR

TokenFemale said:


> i find this attitude on one hand a bit macho and on the other quite sensible. had a bit of a conversation with my journeyman the other day.
> 
> "did they start you off by just sitting and watching? i can't learn that way."
> 
> "yeah that's how everyone goes. my first six months i just observed and carried tools".
> 
> "yeah i didn't get anything out of that."
> 
> "you're supposed to get something out of that."
> 
> "i didn't. i think my first journeyman was offended when i complained too."
> 
> ((something to the effect of "it's not about what you want"))
> 
> "i know i'm not complaining, just observing."
> 
> the new guy i'm working with has been pretty good at keeping me busy fiddling with stuff which is what i need. i think there's some room for compromise here: you want people to arrive at journeyman properly qualified.
> 
> on a bit of a tangent, how long did it take you guys to develop decent dexterity with the nuts and bolts because i'm lightning quick with my computer and on the piano and with a kitchen knife but i'm all thumbs with this stuff.


I could do that by the time I had walking down.


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## chicken steve

This trade would do well to consider a round hole / square peg test.....~CS~


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## wendon

MechanicalDVR said:


> I mastered that years ago, never saved a patient.


Reminds me of a guy I knew that worked at a hospital years ago. Things were a little more lax back then and one day he went into the operating room while an open heart surgery was going on. He walked up behind the doctors, looked over their shoulder, and was able to observe what was going on. Someone caught him in the act and yelled, "Hey! You can't do that!" He replied, "No, I'll have to watch it done a few more times!"

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk


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## MechanicalDVR

wendon said:


> Reminds me of a guy I knew that worked at a hospital years ago. Things were a little more lax back then and one day he went into the operating room while an open heart surgery was going on. He walked up behind the doctors, looked over their shoulder, and was able to observe what was going on. Someone caught him in the act and yelled, "Hey! You can't do that!" He replied, "No, I'll have to watch it done a few more times!"
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk


Yeah but that is after all more complicated than twisting nuts.


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## electricguy

"yeah that's how everyone goes. my first six months i just observed and carried tools".

"yeah i didn't get anything out of that."

"you're supposed to get something out of that.

Pass me the right tool and thinking ahead what i may need next says oodles to me that your learning


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## Rora

I could understand having to watch and carry tools as an apprentice. The job exists because the work has to get done, not because you need to be trained. The issue is, a lot of technical trades require qualified labor, hard work that you can't just have a guy who can only shovel ditches doing. Now if you've got a J-man and 1st year available to work, and a box to wire as well as conduit for it, who in their right mind is gonna have the J-man doing the conduit? Apprentices are expected to do the simpler labor required in technical trades and pick stuff up as they get the opportunity to do so. Not like employers can milk you for labor anyways, considering after long enough they're gonna have to pay you a larger cut of J-man wages.

As far as education, I think it depends. I'm all for blue collar work ethic, but you can't say white collar isn't important. Blue collar _assembled_ America, white collar designed it. Structural and vehicle engineering come to mind as one of the most important developments behind modern America. Personally I'm glad there are people who will sit through 4+ years of fluid, thermo, static and dynamics, etc. so I don't die in a fiery car crash. Wouldn't want to do that myself...

Personally I have found my 2 year tech program extremely valuable. Don't think I could stomach any more, either, though. There are plenty of tech and pre-employment programs that I think would be likewise valuable. Seems some people do 4 year in order to get a piece of paper, dont make anything of it, then wondering how they ended up with just a piece of paper. The inflation of credentials is not at fault if you're not going to college specifically to learn something for a job one day. I've sucked every bit of knowledge I can out of my program and what I've learned has been enormously worth the effort. 

Either way, whether you learn on the job or go to school, what you make of it is what's gonna do it for you. People telling you to go to school when you clearly prefer to learn hands-on is a bit presumptuous.


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## chicken steve

We wouldn't be having this conversation if the grads had more jobs available
:no::no::no:
~CS~


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## Rora

Moved to Canada from the US... I'm blown away by the apprenticeship system here. You can get apprenticeship in the US, but nothing like this. High school kids see it as a viable option right next to college and it's fully government regulated. Tech schools are subsidized and pretty affordable.

Problem with the US college system is that we've been saying "so what college are you going to?" rather than whether they're more cut out for the trades in the first place. I know growing up in the US school system, trades were never even mentioned as a consideration and this was in a rural town. Now we've got a saturation of college grads, some of whom don't even know why they went to college, tons of college debt, and a shortage of tradesmen.


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## chicken steve

Rora said:


> Moved to Canada from the US... I'm blown away by the apprenticeship system here. You can get apprenticeship in the US, but nothing like this. High school kids see it as a viable option right next to college and it's fully government regulated. Tech schools are subsidized and pretty affordable.
> 
> 
> 
> I can believe that Rora , in fact iirc there was a national drive targeting HS counselors to include trades as a post HS option....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Problem with the US college system is that we've been saying "so what college are you going to?" rather than whether they're more cut out for the trades in the first place. I know growing up in the US school system, trades were never even mentioned as a consideration and this was in a rural town. Now we've got a saturation of college grads, some of whom don't even know why they went to college, tons of college debt, and a shortage of tradesmen.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> We can't be outsourced or insourced , nor do we reciprocate as easily , and yeah my states '_licensed grads_' in '16 was about 1/8th of what it was in my day
> 
> _supply demand_ anyone?
> 
> ~CS~
Click to expand...


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## 99cents

Rora said:


> Moved to Canada from the US... I'm blown away by the apprenticeship system here. You can get apprenticeship in the US, but nothing like this. High school kids see it as a viable option right next to college and it's fully government regulated. Tech schools are subsidized and pretty affordable.
> 
> Problem with the US college system is that we've been saying "so what college are you going to?" rather than whether they're more cut out for the trades in the first place. I know growing up in the US school system, trades were never even mentioned as a consideration and this was in a rural town. Now we've got a saturation of college grads, some of whom don't even know why they went to college, tons of college debt, and a shortage of tradesmen.


Yes, our apprenticeship programs are very good. And people back in the 50's were really thinking when they developed interprovincial standards and the Red Seal program. It covers bakers, hairstylists, equipment operators and all the construction trades. Apprenticeship and licensing is virtually transferable anywhere in the country.

I have to give the government and the contractor associations credit for encouraging people to get into the trades.


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## TokenFemale

electricguy said:


> Pass me the right tool and thinking ahead what i may need next says oodles to me that your learning


i'm genius at this, however my effing ATTENTION DEFICIT DISORDER makes it impossible to follow directions and therefore learn anything.

i've realized that the reason i'm so slow is because i'm making a herculean effort to not make stupid mistakes. my fine motor skills are probably okay.



Rora said:


> I could understand having to watch and carry tools as an apprentice. The job exists because the work has to get done, not because you need to be trained.


i agree, and i enjoy this sort of thing, don't mind a bit. it probaby helps that i have literally no ego.



> Either way, whether you learn on the job or go to school, what you make of it is what's gonna do it for you. People telling you to go to school when you clearly prefer to learn hands-on is a bit presumptuous.


i learn well by taking things apart and dicking with them for a while, never had any trouble repairing electronics. if it needs to be done i can usually figure it out.
my jman called me a mechanical moron, that can't be quite right.



> I've sucked every bit of knowledge I can out of my program and what I've learned has been enormously worth the effort.


i feel the same way: no matter how much i suck i'm getting a ton out of this. my backup plan is applied math or EE and if i do get kicked out of the program i haven't wasted my time.

great post btw, thanks.


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## 99cents

Quit talking about ADD. ADD is a common trait in the trades. If we can make it, so can you.


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## drewsserviceco

Or do the responsible thing and get treatment for the ADD from a professional with experience in treating ADD (i.e. Not a general practitioner but a psychiatrist). 

If you break your leg, would you try to self medicate and fix it yourself? How about an infection?

The brain is no different. Get help.


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## 99cents

drewsserviceco said:


> Or do the responsible thing and get treatment for the ADD from a professional with experience in treating ADD (i.e. Not a general practitioner but a psychiatrist).
> 
> If you break your leg, would you try to self medicate and fix it yourself? How about an infection?
> 
> The brain is no different. Get help.


A psychiatrist will put her on Ritalin or Adderall. I'm not here to discuss the merits of meds but I can tell you that ADD is not the inability to focus. The challenge is to eliminate the noise and focus on the right things. It can be done.


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## TokenFemale

99cents said:


> Quit talking about ADD. ADD is a common trait in the trades. If we can make it, so can you.


you guys keep telling me this but i am so sick and tired of being accused of not listening, as if this is something i have any control over. if i could change it i would.

i am medicating, it's getting better, i'm growing tired of the criticism tho.

i'm honestly curious as to how you guys cope, do you have to put up with nearly this much ****.


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## TokenFemale

99cents said:


> The challenge is to eliminate the noise and focus on the right things. It can be done.


my asshole foreman telling me how much i'm f/cking up every two seconds is pretty noisy and distracting.

i'm getting back to meditating, i have to fix this. c'mon you guys, advice.


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## 99cents

TokenFemale said:


> my asshole foreman telling me how much i'm f/cking up every two seconds is pretty noisy and distracting.
> 
> i'm getting back to meditating, i have to fix this. c'mon you guys, advice.


Here's what you won't see in studies about ADD:

First of all, don't think of your ADD as an impediment, think of it as a gift because that's what it is. You actually have extremely well developed powers of focus and observation. 

People with ADD do well with a combination of physical activity and mental exercise. That's why they gravitate to the trades, fire fighting, military, etc. You landed where you're supposed to be. We make lousy accountants.

My ADD son went into the military reserves when he was in high school. He spent his summer at boot camp. You would think that he would hate extreme discipline and physical exhaustion. He loved it.

You have to make use of your powers of observation down to the last detail. For instance, look at how your journeyman takes a screwdriver out of his bag, uses it and then puts it back. I'm talking about extremely minor details. Then you practise until you do it the same way. You want to copy all his good habits.

If you become overwhelmed, take a mini break. Walk around but make it look like you're reviewing your work. Go to the bathroom and sit there for a minute. Go get some material. Flip through the drawings. Give your brain a chance to clear.

You're not a victim so quit acting like it.


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## drewsserviceco

99cents said:


> A psychiatrist will put her on Ritalin or Adderall. I'm not here to discuss the merits of meds but I can tell you that ADD is not the inability to focus. The challenge is to eliminate the noise and focus on the right things. It can be done.



Oh, I get it!! Like an old radio in between two stations, not really being able to hear one or the other clearly and you can't move the dial. 

But there's also the times of intense focus with things of interest. And there's also being 5 moves ahead of where you're currently at. Those things work well for construction. 

There's also Vyvanse, which I haven't tried, but I heard from those that have it's a real life changer. 

My real point, and yours as well, is that complaining about it and using ADD as an excuse for any inadequacy is nothing more than a crutch and does nothing to change the current situation. Construction is a results oriented industry: you either produce or you don't. If you don't produce, people aren't going to pay you. This applies to every level, the lowly apprentice, the jman, the foreman, the owner of the company even the GC. 

Being an apprentice sucks. It's that simple. Suck it up, apply yourself, learn as much as you can and improve every day.


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## 99cents

Read _The DaVinci Method_ by my friend Garrett Loporto. He's one of us and much of what he says will ring true. It will change the way you think of yourself.

http://www.davincimethod.com/davinci-method.html


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## drewsserviceco

99cents said:


> You're not a victim so quit acting like it.



I didn't read all 80+ posts, I read some in the beginning when the thread was new, then came back recently. 

I would venture to say that a lot of the flack the OP is catching is from the (perceived) victim mentality. No one wants to hear it, especially since every single one of us has been there. And the older we are, the rougher we had it because the generation we apprenticed under were rougher and tougher then we are. 

The jmen I worked under as an apprentice had no regard for your feelings and wouldn't hesitate to verbally abuse me, my family's name or my mothers honor. 🙂 Tools would be thrown in my general direction. Embarrassment and frustration were their tools for teaching. 

From what I heard of their apprenticeship, their journeymen wouldn't think twice about some physical motivation. 

Times have changed, but the fact remains that we all put our time in as an apprentice.


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## 99cents

drewsserviceco said:


> I didn't read all 80+ posts, I read some in the beginning when the thread was new, then came back recently.
> 
> I would venture to say that a lot of the flack the OP is catching is from the (perceived) victim mentality. No one wants to hear it, especially since every single one of us has been there. And the older we are, the rougher we had it because the generation we apprenticed under were rougher and tougher then we are.
> 
> The jmen I worked under as an apprentice had no regard for your feelings and wouldn't hesitate to verbally abuse me, my family's name or my mothers honor. &#55357;&#56898; Tools would be thrown in my general direction. Embarrassment and frustration were their tools for teaching.
> 
> From what I heard of their apprenticeship, their journeymen wouldn't think twice about some physical motivation.
> 
> Times have changed, but the fact remains that we all put our time in as an apprentice.


I got fired from my first job. Then I got a job wiring cheap condos. The crews were great and we helped each other out. We had a lot of fun. Fun factor is huge  .

After I got my confidence up, I moved on to bigger and better things. After a few years into it, I had a foreman take me aside and tell me I was the best apprentice he had ever seen. I still remember that day.

There are matches and mismatches. Maybe Token is in the wrong spot but she still has to make the best of the opportunity.


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## MechanicalDVR

chicken steve said:


> We wouldn't be having this conversation if the grads had more jobs available
> :no::no::no:
> ~CS~


When you have companies that would much rather hire immigrants so they can maximize what they exploit form them what can you expect?

You have read about the worries of Silicon Valley tech companies?

They can't function with American hires. Maybe our colleges should drop the liberal indoctrination process and focus on a work related curriculum.


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## 99cents

MechanicalDVR said:


> Maybe our colleges should drop the *liberal* indoctrination process and focus on a work related curriculum.


Maybe everybody should drop the pigeon holing of political affiliation and work together for a change.

Please don't make this thread political. There's a different place on this site set aside for political BS.


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## MechanicalDVR

Rora said:


> Moved to Canada from the US... I'm blown away by the apprenticeship system here. You can get apprenticeship in the US, but nothing like this. High school kids see it as a viable option right next to college and it's fully government regulated. Tech schools are subsidized and pretty affordable.
> 
> Problem with the US college system is that we've been saying "so what college are you going to?" rather than whether they're more cut out for the trades in the first place. I know growing up in the US school system, trades were never even mentioned as a consideration and this was in a rural town. Now we've got a saturation of college grads, some of whom don't even know why they went to college, tons of college debt, and a shortage of tradesmen.


Take a look at the apprenticeship program at MC Dean Inc sometime when you have a few minutes to google and read.

Canada may just place more emphasis on getting a trade and having a career rather than just going to college to become a liberal arts major and work as a coffee server or cashier.

US employers rather hire immigrants over citizens for their work ethic and ease of having an employee that is grateful for having a job.

So in Canada having all this great trade education are there jobs for the grads they turn out? 

It seems many areas there are pretty bleak on the employment scene from the posts I read here.


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## MechanicalDVR

TokenFemale said:


> i'm genius at this, however my effing ATTENTION DEFICIT DISORDER makes it impossible to follow directions and therefore learn anything.
> 
> i've realized that the reason i'm so slow is because i'm making a herculean effort to not make stupid mistakes. my fine motor skills are probably okay.
> 
> 
> i agree, and i enjoy this sort of thing, don't mind a bit. it probaby helps that i have literally no ego.
> 
> i learn well by taking things apart and dicking with them for a while, never had any trouble repairing electronics. if it needs to be done i can usually figure it out.
> my jman called me a mechanical moron, that can't be quite right.
> 
> i feel the same way: no matter how much i suck i'm getting a ton out of this. my backup plan is applied math or EE and if i do get kicked out of the program i haven't wasted my time.
> 
> great post btw, thanks.



Many times the balance between production and training an apprentice is hard for a jman that isn't really good at interpersonal skills. 

He needs to produce income for the employer while training the up and coming. 

A good jman will realize your talents and put you to work using them with as little supervision as deemed necessary by your skills and attitude. 

I used to get a guy started and let them run a little while I made some progress so no day was a losing proposition. 

A good jman can see how an apprentice is going to do by comfort level when given a specific task.

Your jman could be falling short on giving you what you need, which is very unfortunate for you both. You as in not getting the tasks that would keep you focused and him in not getting the assistance from you he should.

The best type of jman would be building your ego and sense of pride in your work skills.


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## 99cents

We have lots of unemployed tradesmen here. Unemployment is not confined to college grads.


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## MechanicalDVR

99cents said:


> Maybe everybody should drop the pigeon holing of political affiliation and work together for a change.
> 
> Please don't make this thread political. There's a different place on this site set aside for political BS.


It's not about political it's about the focus on what our colleges teach. They don't seem to stick to the core of why students are there. 

For example if one is there for a engineering degree why have them take any class that has no bearing on engineering? 

The agenda should be to give the best education based on the desired degree and with many colleges that isn't the plan. They want to turn out a specific type of student.


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## MechanicalDVR

99cents said:


> We have lots of unemployed tradesmen here. Unemployment is not confined to college grads.


Didn't say it was limited to them. Just wondering if there is employment for the apprentices they turn out? 

Does the education system up there tend to produce people well trained in the areas (careers) hurting for people? 

That seems to be a problem in the US.

If you want to go to school to become a left handed widget artist they will let you do what you pay for rather then be honest and let you know that left handed widget artist isn't going to be a good choice as there are few employment opportunities?


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## splatz

MechanicalDVR said:


> Many times the balance between production and training an apprentice is hard for a jman that isn't really good at interpersonal skills. ...
> 
> A good jman will realize your talents and put you to work using them with as little supervision as deemed necessary by your skills and attitude.
> 
> I used to get a guy started and let them run a little while I made some progress so no day was a losing proposition.
> 
> A good jman can see how an apprentice is going to do by comfort level when given a specific task.
> ...
> The best type of jman would be building your ego and sense of pride in your work skills.


My opinion, the problem is the apprenticeship system is a little too loose. There's nothing in the apprenticeship that teaches you how to develop an apprentice. Being qualified as a journeyman doesn't qualify someone to DEVELOP apprentices. 

Some will be fortunate enough to learn by example. Some will just be naturally good at it. Some companies will have a way of doing things that will make them good at turning out journeymen that handle apprentices well. 

There may have been a day when that was the norm, in some places, in some trades. The older guys around here are generally pretty helpful to any apprentice that is trying. I don't know if that's that they came up in a different environment, or they're just mellowed with age, or it's just that it's become so unusual to see a young person with their head in the game. Hard or soft or whatever else, 20 years old these days isn't anywhere near as mature as 20 years old 30 years ago. 

This has nothing to do with the OP, by the way. I stopped listening there a while ago.


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## 99cents

MechanicalDVR said:


> Didn't say it was limited to them. Just wondering if there is employment for the apprentices they turn out?
> 
> Does the education system up there tend to produce people well trained in the areas (careers) hurting for people?
> 
> That seems to be a problem in the US.
> 
> If you want to go to school to become a left handed widget artist they will let you do what you pay for rather then be honest and let you know that left handed widget artist isn't going to be a good choice as there are few employment opportunities?


My understanding is that the trade schools and technical colleges work better with industry to develop students that can be more useful in the workforce.

I have a family member with a Masters Degree in English Literature at a time when mainstream media can barely string a sentence together. Shame.


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## TokenFemale

drewsserviceco said:


> The jmen I worked under as an apprentice had no regard for your feelings and wouldn't hesitate to verbally abuse me, my family's name or my mothers honor. 🙂 Tools would be thrown in my general direction. Embarrassment and frustration were their tools for teaching.


none of these guys are nearly as abusive as my frankly horrific (former) home life. mostly i think it's funny, and am happy to engage in what i consider to be slightly insulting banter.

nothing that's occurred on a job has remotely impressed me, and maybe that's the problem.



> I would venture to say that a lot of the flack the OP is catching is from the (perceived) victim mentality.


i'm curious where you are getting this from: i'm probably the most resilient person I know. i don't give af probably too much. i mention the ADD incessantly because the negative symptoms ruining my life, and i'm desperately looking for solutions.



99cents said:


> Here's what you won't see in studies about ADD:
> 
> First of all, don't think of your ADD as an impediment, think of it as a gift because that's what it is. You actually have extremely well developed powers of focus and observation.
> 
> People with ADD do well with a combination of physical activity and mental exercise. That's why they gravitate to the trades, fire fighting, military, etc. You landed where you're supposed to be. We make lousy accountants


I agree, it should be a good fit, what's going wrong?
i wonder if you are confusing the hyperactive and inattentive subtypes. everyone i've spoken with with inattention who tried a trade said it was hell. i literally cannot follow verbal directions unless i repeat them back, which is annoying and timeconsuming for my j-man and i'm still getting tripped up on the "unknown unknowns".

thanks for the pep talk guys.


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## MechanicalDVR

99cents said:


> My understanding is that the trade schools and technical colleges work better with industry to develop students that can be more useful in the workforce.
> 
> I have a family member with a Masters Degree in English Literature at a time when mainstream media can barely string a sentence together. Shame.


That is something that is extremely rare in this country and it hurts those going into the work force. 

What was he planning to do with an English Lit degree?

On a side note: The current state of language skills and sentence structure really depresses me.


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## Shorttime

I admit, I didn't read much of the ensuing five pages. I felt that I have something to say about the central theme of the original question, because I am in a similar situation. I may repeat what others have said, but I feel it's worth repeating

Field experience is absolutely essential. But it can only take you so far. We work with a force that is largely invisible, and immediately lethal, and understanding the theoretical grounds of it will not only take your further, it may keep you alive.

As an example. I found Electrician Talk while searching for information about Wye-Delta transformers. In the process of reading, I learned about some of their... unique qualities. I won't get all the details right (apprentice!), but it's possible to have a ground fault that will not trip any breakers or overloads. The only way you find it is by the fact that the ground wire is carrying current.

In the mean time, it can wreak all kinds of havoc with motors and control systems because it can throw your phases out of balance.

Once you've seen it, you know to check it. But if you've had the education, you can skip the head-scratching, and go straight to checking your transformer grounds.

If I've got that not quite right, I'm sure somebody will be able to fill in the details. As I said: apprentice. Still, the point is that college will give you the theoretical understanding of what's going on inside the circuit, making you a better troubleshooter. Better troubleshooters get paid more, and even if you're in it because you enjoy the job, a bigger paycheck is still a nice thing to have.


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## Rora

In terms of industry driven curriculum, I've been very lucky. My institution is somewhat co-dependant on major companies, they need a certain amount of qualified technologists and in return sponsor everything. The result is that most of the curriculum is driven by what they're asking for. Even though the school has its hands deep in their pockets, in the end it works out for students.

All of the buildings and classrooms are named after companies... sometimes feels a bit like being a NASCAR driver with logos head-to-toe. We get to use pretty nice equipment, though. 




Shorttime said:


> Field experience is absolutely essential. But it can only take you so far. We work with a force that is largely invisible, and immediately lethal, and understanding the theoretical grounds of it will not only take your further, it may keep you alive.


If the profession as a whole is like a 5,000 piece puzzle, education is like finishing the border. It lets you see the whole picture end-to-end even if you don't really know many details in-between. Experience fills in the middle, having an education allows you to understand where everything fits relative to each other as you learn it in the field. I think the risk is feeling like you know it all, when in reality, education can't replace experience but merely enhances it.


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## Rock knocker

TokenFemale said:


> maybe because i'm a grill, but probably mostly because i seem to be smart, people keep telling me to go to school.
> 
> who wants to go to effing school, especially in this day and age. i spent a year dicking around in stem and all university professors are arrogant dicks who no speak good engrish and can't cut me slack for Real Life Problems like running out of money or family emergencies or getting sick. journeymen will eff with you but at least they have a legitimate business need for doing so; professors just seem to enjoy the power trip.
> 
> what do i say next time someone tells me to be an EE: "please drop 30k on my lap for my college education kthanx"? "why would i want to stare at a computer screen all day when i could be doing cool and exciting dangerous sh!t instead?" further snappy comebacks much appreciated.


Hard to believe anyone would suggest college to you


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## Shorttime

Rora said:


> .....If the profession as a whole is like a 5,000 piece puzzle, education is like finishing the border. It lets you see the whole picture end-to-end even if you don't really know many details in-between. Experience fills in the middle, having an education allows you to understand where everything fits relative to each other as you learn it in the field. I think the risk is feeling like you know it all, when in reality, education can't replace experience but merely enhances it.


An excellent analogy! I would never try to suggest that education _can _replace experience, and I hope it didn't sound that way. Experience and education are complimentary.


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## Rora

Shorttime said:


> An excellent analogy! I would never try to suggest that education _can _replace experience, and I hope it didn't sound that way. Experience and education are complimentary.


No, not at all. I was speaking personally, I sometimes feel like I have the whole picture because I know the extent of everything. Just have to remember that there are a lot of pieces missing in the middle and I have a lot to learn from J-man who's developed the puzzle from the inside out. They have a better idea of what the big picture really looks like even if they haven't encountered every fringe case.

I try to keep this in mind and put everything I'm learning in the context of how it could one day be applied in the field, has made the education much more valuable.


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## TokenFemale

Shorttime said:


> If I've got that not quite right, I'm sure somebody will be able to fill in the details. As I said: apprentice. Still, the point is that college will give you the theoretical understanding of what's going on inside the circuit, making you a better troubleshooter. Better troubleshooters get paid more, and even if you're in it because you enjoy the job, a bigger paycheck is still a nice thing to have.


My frustration with the uni system is that it seems to be very much built upon credentialism versus actually learning something that you can use. The very best schools in this country are the most guilty of this: see this article on the Harvard cheating scandal of a few years ago... I believe one of the points of the linked article is that if you're not learning anything, you might as well get the diploma in the most painless way possible, and, sadly, it doesn't count if you drop out. But don't just take my word for it: multiple studies have shown that sizeable percentage of students learn no transferrable skills in their time at uni; often their reading and writing doesn't improve either.

I think the mistake a lot of older people make is thinking that colleges are functional institutions versus pointless money sinks. The other mistake is believing that a regular working class person can work his or her way through if he or she has the aptitude and motivation. Without appropriate family and financial support, this is false.

Guys in this trade keep telling me "it's up to you, it's up to you" in reference to my success or failure on a job, this is a such a stupid truism: life is largely random.


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## TokenFemale

I think my point is that I can study Python on my own time as much as I want but it won't lead to a job without some kind of qualification to get my foot in the door.

As a licensed electrician, or even as an apprentice, working on your own to become more competent and knowledgeable actually has a payoff. It's such a shame that this is true nearly nowhere else in the professional world because the internet is such a useful resource.


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## chicken steve

Sooner or later (better sooner) one figures out this isn't a _meritocracy _TF

All the bells and whistles one can accumulate can't even_ scratch_ that surface

BUT, the old canards will still be foisted upon you (et all) pondering the validity of academica in an arena that hails to more a social gestalt that that of true virtue 

Such is the way of the world.

~CS~


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## TokenFemale

chicken steve said:


> Sooner or later (better sooner) one figures out this isn't a _meritocracy _TF


since none of us are harvard students, we might as well try to be good at our jobs, at least we'll still have them.


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## TokenFemale

bill39 said:


> When I started the apprenticeship program in 1974 most of the J-men were WWII vets who were very matter-of-fact and showed little regard for a lowly apprentice. I learned quickly to keep my mouth shut and do what I was told.
> 
> There was very little room for backtalk or complaining. I wouldn't call any of it bullying or actual mistreatment, just knowing that I was expendable. There was no HR department or thought of going to the owner/boss to complain. It all made me a better person.
> 
> I will say it was very satisfying when I finally topped out to not have to take their BS anymore. It's been a fantastic career and would do it all over again.


guys on construction sites like to go on about how tough they are: getting cut by stuff or falling off ladders seems kind of okay so long as you don't land permanently in a wheelchair. i've heard a few "my mom beat me with a spatula" and "my dad threw tools at me til i got the right one" stories which don't make me blink an eye. one guy got kidnapped which seems kind of ****ty, he was from nyc and had me pegged as also "from the hood".

i'd have respect for greatest generation wii vets guys: they went thru something. the guys i work under now are just RW blowhards who think they know everything about everything.

sometimes i miss living in the ward/south side those guys were way less delusional than these pricks.


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## MechanicalDVR

TokenFemale said:


> guys on construction sites like to go on about how tough they are: getting cut by stuff or falling off ladders seems kind of okay so long as you don't land permanently in a wheelchair. i've heard a few "my mom beat me with a spatula" and "my dad threw tools at me til i got the right one" stories which don't make me blink an eye. one guy got kidnapped which seems kind of ****ty, he was from nyc and had me pegged as also "from the hood".
> 
> i'd have respect for greatest generation wii vets guys: they went thru something. the guys i work under now are just RW blowhards who think they know everything about everything.
> 
> sometimes i miss living in the ward/south side those guys were way less delusional than these pricks.


New England tough guys, hmm don't know any of them.


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## AdamMT

This thread cracks me up. Glad I joined on here to be apart of this magic. Keep 'em rollin'
:thumbsup:


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