# Question on commercial service job



## kolyan2k (Apr 13, 2014)

I think the building has 1200AMP total with many tenants at distribution panel (60s,100s,200s, and 400s AMP services) I was hired to split one of the existing 400AMP service to keep 400AMPs for 1st floor and add another 200AMP for 2nd floor. Currently the 2nd floor already has its own 100AMP panel and another 100AMP goes straight to rooftop unit. There are lots of tenants in the building and all 200AMP meter sockets are taken, however there are 3 empty 100AMP sockets left. Instead of going through lots and lots of work to add 200AMP service, I was thinking just dropping the existing 100AMP panel to one 100AMP meter socket (w/ breaker disconnect) and do the same for the rooftop unit. So basically this unit will have its own meter and the feeder will be tied up straight to the meter (also w/breaker disconnect at the meter socket). 2nd floor tenant will have two accounts with provider.

What do you think? I spoke with inspector briefly and he ok'ed it, but I just want to double check.


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

You are all over the map. Think building has 1200 amp total main breaker? Or breakers totaling 1200 with six switch rule? Hard to follow all together. You should draw up a one line and post this situation that way. Then draw up new one line on improvements. If you told the inspector the same way you explained it to us, I would just nod my head in agreement too.


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## kolyan2k (Apr 13, 2014)

Cl906um said:


> You are all over the map. Think building has 1200 amp total main breaker? Or breakers totaling 1200 with six switch rule? Hard to follow all together. You should draw up a one line and post this situation that way. Then draw up new one line on improvements. If you told the inspector the same way you explained it to us, I would just nod my head in agreement too.


I just explained roughly the building situation. None of that really matters. The only question is if one tenant on 2nd floor can have 2 separate meters with 1 feeding the panel and another rooftop unit only? Ideally I would never do that obviously, but there is no space for a single 200amp meter, only 3 100amp meter sockets left unused


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

If things go south and there are outages can you afford to pay damages for the downtime if any tenants decide somebody owes me for this interruption?

Tell the building owners you would love to solve their problems for them , but truly for liability and so forth they should really be bringing in a licensed P.E. to design the new systems and put it all on a stamped drawing for you so your ass is covered in the event somethings keep tripping or worse.


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## inetdog (Apr 13, 2016)

I am not sure whether the NEC makes any statement about this, but POCO may have their own opinion! Be sure to check with them, not just the AHJ.

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## kolyan2k (Apr 13, 2014)

macmikeman said:


> If things go south and there are outages can you afford to pay damages for the downtime if any tenants decide somebody owes me for this interruption?
> 
> Tell the building owners you would love to solve their problems for them , but truly for liability and so forth they should really be bringing in a licensed P.E. to design the new systems and put it all on a stamped drawing for you so your ass is covered in the event somethings keep tripping or worse.


Not sure what u mean by outages....The owner though $3k is a lot to pay, he is not going to hire any PE, just wants two floors split from a single 400amp service because current tenants keep fighting about single electric bill


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

kolyan2k said:


> Not sure what u mean by outages....The owner though $3k is a lot to pay, he is not going to hire any PE, just wants two floors split from a single 400amp service because current tenants keep fighting about single electric bill


Did you make a load demand caluation for second floor load ? 

second thing is that you will have to find all the circuits that run to second floor to be relocated to second floor panel.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

kolyan2k said:


> Not sure what u mean by outages....The owner though $3k is a lot to pay, *he is not going to hire any PE,* just wants two floors split from a single 400amp service because current tenants keep fighting about single electric bill


You should never concern yourself about how 'pinched' a given prospect feels about paying for your services. 

Saving him money should be the _*last*_ thing on your mind.

Your proposal, best as I can tell, involves a screwy, odd-ball, set up... unconventional in every way... so he can chisel some bucks, lest they fall into your hands.

Professionally, I don't do screw-ball.

In the event of calamity ( See Oakland fire ) firemen need to have rapid and certain Service interruption switches.

Your proposal would have power weaving this way and that.

It sounds like the landlord is going to have to spring for additional busing... an extra section for his big grey box... or its equivalent. [ Use the tap rules to take tap-feeders over to an adjacent distribution board/ meter section. ]

Plan B would be to upgrade one or two spare 100A to 200A. 

It's impossible to know what would be practical from where I sit.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

I'm confused :001_huh:

Wha really confuses me, though, is that the job has been quoted already with no definite game plan.


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## kolyan2k (Apr 13, 2014)

frenchelectrican said:


> kolyan2k said:
> 
> 
> > Not sure what u mean by outages....The owner though $3k is a lot to pay, he is not going to hire any PE, just wants two floors split from a single 400amp service because current tenants keep fighting about single electric bill
> ...


Loads are all the same as they used to be, I am just splitting the service. Circuits are already split as well since 2nd floor has its own 100amp subpanel already



99cents said:


> I'm confused
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well the game plan was to install 2 100amp services since inspector said it's fine. The other and cheaper solution is to install a submeter and call it a day. The owner is not going to pay for 200amp separate service, it's a huge job that would require shutting down power to the whole building


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## kolyan2k (Apr 13, 2014)

I am going to open up all the main meter panels and see what's going on with all the empty spaces, then call POCO and ask them if they are fine with putting a separate meter just for rooftop unit. If not, will offer owner even cheaper solution with submeter.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

kolyan2k said:


> I am going to open up all the main meter panels and see what's going on with all the empty spaces, then call POCO and ask them if they are fine with putting a separate meter just for rooftop unit. If not, will offer owner even cheaper solution with submeter.


He has $3000.00 to spend. Take it.


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## kolyan2k (Apr 13, 2014)

By the way, can you run multiple feeders through emon dmon rings (E20-208200-JKIT)? In my case that would be two 100amp feeders. Or would I need to tap of 400AMP panel lugs to install 200AMP subpanel w/main breaker and have that monitored by emon submeter?


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

My experience with Emon is they sent me a meter once and then six months later sent me a letter saying the meter was incorrect and I needed to change the multiplier from what I had already given to the building owner to charge his tenants. That lost me a good customer, so I hope Emon looses you based on my telling you about it.


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## kolyan2k (Apr 13, 2014)

macmikeman said:


> My experience with Emon is they sent me a meter once and then six months later sent me a letter saying the meter was incorrect and I needed to change the multiplier from what I had already given to the building owner to charge his tenants. That lost me a good customer, so I hope Emon looses you based on my telling you about it.


Or Leviton 2K208-2W......looks identical


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

I did a quicky search, and boy oh boy, Leviton sure seems to have moved into this market in a big way. There was a Japanese company selling sub meters made for USA also but the name skips me at the moment. OSAKA?


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## Maple_Syrup25 (Nov 20, 2012)

Just do it. Don't worry about all this other stuff. Only crap part is tenant needs to pay 2 deliver charges. 


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## Maple_Syrup25 (Nov 20, 2012)

Sounds like a fun little job to me! Give the people what they want 


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## kolyan2k (Apr 13, 2014)

So POCO and inspector are both OK with me installing 2 100AMP services instead of 1 200AMP

BUT, now owner remembered that 1 200AMP existing meter has been capped due to none-payment and tenant (or owner) instead of paying what I assume was a pretty large bill, decided to run a new service with new meter. So now I am just going to install single 200AMP service with brand new panel for one tenant and leave the existing 400AMP untouched for another tenant


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