# Explosion proof stuff, gas tanks, pumps sensors..etc?



## Mr. Sparkle (Jan 27, 2009)

Sorry for such a vague inquiry.....I really do not have much more detail or experience beyond what I am about to ask.

Does anyone here have any experience installing the instrumentation equipment at gas stations? 

All I know of at this moment is it will consist of some sort of card reader system, tank level sensors, and obviously it's all gotta be explosion proof .....that is it really.

Like I said, I have never done this type of work before but just talked to a GC who has the contract for laying all the rigid in the ground, I would be in charge of running all the wires and hooking everything up outside of the stubs. Any info on this type of work would be greatly appreciated, I can't imagine it being rocket surgery, er.. I mean brain science.

Thanks in advance.

*Moderators, can you please move this to the motors and controls forum? It may be better suited there, my bad.


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

Mr. Sparkle said:


> Sorry for such a vague inquiry.....I really do not have much more detail or experience beyond what I am about to ask.
> 
> Does anyone here have any experience installing the instrumentation equipment at gas stations?
> 
> All I know of at this moment is it will consist of some sort of card reader system, tank level sensors


i do


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## Toronto Sparky (Apr 12, 2009)

This is the only system I ever installed.. 
I have the installation CD around here somewhere.. 

I found it ... But it's 105 megs

http://www.veeder.com/page/home


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

Mr. Sparkle said:


> Does anyone here have any experience installing the instrumentation equipment at gas stations?


Yes, if you get a list of equipment being installed it will be easier to help you.


> All I know of at this moment is it will consist of some sort of card reader system,


in the dispenser unit or free standing?


> tank level sensors,


sump sensors too?


> and obviously it's all gotta be explosion proof


not necessarily


> .....that is it really.
> 
> Like I said, I have never done this type of work before but just talked to a GC who has the contract for laying all the rigid in the ground, I would be in charge of running all the wires and hooking everything up outside of the stubs. Any info on this type of work would be greatly appreciated, I can't imagine it being rocket surgery, er.. I mean brain science.


 No, it's not rocket surgery, but if you aren't familiar with the nuances, you can lose your shirt.


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## Old Spark (Nov 18, 2008)

Gas Station work is like rocket science. If you don't know what you are doing, you can blow up a gas station or kill someone or your self. I have 25 years experience in gas stations and it takes me a couple years to train someone to work on their own at a gas station. You have to know where and how to seal the conduits, what intrinsically safe equipment and circuits are and how to keep them separate from circuits with voltage. You have to know what needs to be explosion proof and what does not. You cannot learn this in two hours or two weeks. Why would a GC ask an electrician without gas station experience? You also have to be certified to install wiring to dispenser, monitoring and card reader systems. Good luck!
David Channell, Service Station Electric Inc.


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## Mr. Sparkle (Jan 27, 2009)

Dave,

I am not doing this thing blind if it pans out, I am not that stupid...don't worry. 

I have already made some contacts with some local people who have done this type of work to assist me if I get the job. It is my understanding that I will be installing Veeder Root systems, similar to the one posted above. As a business owner would you walk away from the opportunity? Even though I have over ten years in the trade and am a License holder in my state I still have plenty to learn in the electrical field, but as a business owner I do not need to possess the ability to perform the task. In all honesty, I only need the ability to get the work, the labor pool is deep with knowledge at this point in time. :thumbsup:

With that being said, welcome to the forum and thanks for your future help with all of the questions I may have for you. :yes:


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## Old Spark (Nov 18, 2008)

*explosion proof electrical*

In California, installers of Veeder-Root monitoring equipment must be certified by Veeder-Root and be able to show the start up tech. your cert. number. He is not supposed to start up the system is the installer is not certified. You can get certified on line, but it will take awhile to pass the test if you have no experience. You are right, if you can find someone to hire who has the certification or can get certified you can do the job. It's not easy to find workers here in Calif. We've tried to train about two dozen over the last three years as our business has grown, and only one liked it well enough to keep with it. You can get a booklet on hazardous location electrical from Appleton, it has lots of pix to help train your people.
David Channell, Service Station Electric Inc.


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

David Channell said:


> In California, installers of Veeder-Root monitoring equipment must be certified by Veeder-Root..... You can get certified on line, but it will take awhile to pass the test if you have no experience.


this certification cost money?


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## Old Spark (Nov 18, 2008)

Yes, it does cost. I believe it is $175 for level one, that allows you to install the equipment and shielded cables, but you cannot turn on the equipment without voiding the warrantee. I don't know what it costs for level's 2 thru 5, because I did not want to do the start ups. That is a specialty that takes a lot more training and takes too much time away from all the other installing we do. Around here, Sacramento Valley, the start up people are not usually electricians and they do not build anything or run conduit. Technitions and electricians are usually two different animals. 
You can go on line and look for Veeder-Root and then training.


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

I did pull up Veeder-Roots site and I cant get a number back from them to apply. $175 is not bad for that certification.


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## Total Power (Nov 22, 2009)

David Channell said:


> Gas Station work is like rocket science. If you don't know what you are doing, you can blow up a gas station or kill someone or your self. I have 25 years experience in gas stations and it takes me a couple years to train someone to work on their own at a gas station. You have to know where and how to seal the conduits, what intrinsically safe equipment and circuits are and how to keep them separate from circuits with voltage. You have to know what needs to be explosion proof and what does not. You cannot learn this in two hours or two weeks. Why would a GC ask an electrician without gas station experience? You also have to be certified to install wiring to dispenser, monitoring and card reader systems. Good luck!
> David Channell, Service Station Electric Inc.


 
2 years to teach someone to wire a gas station ?

you must really suck at teaching


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## gilbequick (Oct 6, 2007)

Total Power said:


> 2 years to teach someone to wire a gas station ?
> 
> you must really suck at teaching



Welcome to the forum. 

I bet you're going to be a peach to have around.


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## Old Spark (Nov 18, 2008)

Would you want your heart specialist to operate on you if he had less that 2 years training. We are talking about lives here. If you don't think so, please stay away from gas station electrical.


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## Total Power (Nov 22, 2009)

You're comparing yourself to a heart surgeon ?? Seriously ???

Somebody has some grand illusions about himself here.

I agree that potentially there could be serious issues here regarding safe wiring at a gas station , however , having done more than a dozen stations as a foreman working for others , then overseeing dozens more as the owner of a business , I have never seen anything as apocolyptic as you seem to think exists. 

All of the stations in my area are engineered jobs - perhaps that is a difference. Do you design/build yours? 

I find the NEC and the Massachusetts ammendments to the NEC to be pretty much forthcoming as to what you need to do. I've found inspectors , both at the local and state level to be very helpful with any gray areas. 

I learned how to do this wiring by being given a set of drawings and being told 3 men would meet me there in the morning. We hit the ground running and never looked back. 

To suggest 2 years of training to wire a gas station / convenience store suggests to me that either you or the ones you claim to teach should possibly be packing "happy meals" instead of wiring fuel dispensing stations. 

An entire apprenticeship consists of 4 years experience - you say that half that time should be spent teaching the fine art of bending 3/4" and 1" GRC ? Incredible.

At this time my men and I have 1 station / convenience store about to open and we're just getting into a fuel transfer facility.

We also travel the east coast from Maine to New Jersey and as far west as Buffalo NY working on stations for Exxon/Mobil

Perhaps it is you that should walk away from this type of work.


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## Old Spark (Nov 18, 2008)

I suspect that California is way ahead of the East Coast on making sure that gas stations are properly designed and installed. That may be the reason that not one union contractor has decided to attempt to learn and tackle a gas station. It is not the bending of conduit or pulling wire that is different that any other commercial job. Knowing the codes, getting certified on each monitoring system and passing the state certification tests, etc. seem to cause problems with the average electrician.
The state ICC test requires that you know a lot about the other trades. I agree its certainly possible for someone very interested and has a good teacher to learn this trade, but when I learned 25 years ago. I had a good teacher but I didn't get tested by the state on how everything was done. The contractor that taught me had about three years experience, and we just read the plans asked a lot of questions of the inspectors, read the code book and figured it out. Maybe you have smarter trainees or apprentices out there. I've just gone back into the field and do it myself again now. The comment about heart surgery of course is and over-kill, but if you don't take it seriously you could cause a serious fire or explosion. One of the most common mistakes I see is: improperly packing and pouring EY's. They can't see the inportance of separating each wire with the packing fiber. Another is: not understanding intrinsically safe circuits, therefore mixing the wiring with power wiring. Another is using shielded cables with a PVC jacket just because it is listed in the manufacturers instructions as an acceptable cable and it is cheaper. PVC is not gas and oil resistend and therefore not per N.E.C. Apparently a lot of inspectors don't notice, because we keep finding this cable in jobs done by our competition. I'm glad you understand how to wire gas stations and hopefully you like doing it, because it needs to be done correctly and if you enjoy it you will stay on top of the changes that are continually taking place. Have a great Thanksgiving!
P.S. Out here Veeder-Root has been the major monitoring system with Incon just starting to come into the picture. What is the main monitoring system you see?


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## Total Power (Nov 22, 2009)

We use Veederoot pretty much everywhere here. I've only seen Incon a few times and only recently. 

I'm not sure if we have people here any smarter than on the west coast , but we've never had any issue getting people certified to install Veederoot , with the exception of a couple.

As far as the violations that you mentioned , that's all basically Electric 101. Whether working for myself or others , as long as you're on top of your game and mindful of the enviroment that you're working , none of these things should present a problem

Of course , we've all had employees that make mistakes - and I make them too , but catching them before they create a problem is something we strive to do. Usually before a job phase is completed either myself or my business partner will go to the site and go through a checklist that we've compiled and look for all of the key ingredients. We find this extremely helpful. We also use the checklist as a tool during our monthly training sessions that we have every fourth Friday from noon until 3 pm , we buy the guys lunch and go over any key points that we see as causing issues. The men have really gotten into these meetings and we all leave them feeling like we got something accomplished.


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## Old Spark (Nov 18, 2008)

I'm impressed, you sound like you've got it together. I guess we've had bad luck with finding people who really want to learn. Around here they resent having meetings or being told they need to learn more. I trained two very competent people right out of the starting gate and because we are small only needed to hire help now and then. Then we started to grow and needed more competent people who could learn to be lead persons, That's when things started to slip. My qualified people spent their time training people who could not or did not want to learn and we did a lot more work but didn't make more money. We thought this would improve, but..........Well,things don't always work out the way you plan.
Incon has improved and are ahead of Veeder-Root with their technology now, but they are way behind in reputation. I'm sure you don't get to decide which monitor to use, so Incon will have to sell themshelves to the oil companies before you see more of their system.


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## Toronto Sparky (Apr 12, 2009)

I really liked the wire nut joints that you put in the little baggy and fill with epoxy.


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## Larryt (May 1, 2009)

*Larryt*

Sir, having been certified in Veeder-Root (tank monitors) and everything else having to do with "class 1 division 1", and having read all of the responses to your inquiry, not one "so-called" professional has mentioned the fact that you need to have a bank of isolation relays (ice cube type) to prevent explosion hazards. I'm surprised that no other "so called" petroleum-pro has even mentioned that these are required in all new installations.
Be careful who you listen to. 






Mr. Sparkle said:


> Sorry for such a vague inquiry.....I really do not have much more detail or experience beyond what I am about to ask.
> 
> Does anyone here have any experience installing the instrumentation equipment at gas stations?
> 
> ...


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## Total Power (Nov 22, 2009)

That has been discussed wit the original poster through pm. Along with the fact that once mounted in an enclosure and wired , that constitutes a control panel and must be UL listed.


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## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

Total Power said:


> That has been discussed wit the original poster through pm. Along with the fact that once mounted in an enclosure and wired , that constitutes a control panel and must be UL listed.


Be careful now we got a real educated installer among us electricians:whistling2:

A real professional


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## Mr. Sparkle (Jan 27, 2009)

Sorry, I misunderstood what you were referring to in your previous post ric, that foot in mouth thing can be contagious....


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## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

Larryt said:


> Sir, having been certified in Veeder-Root (tank monitors) and everything else having to do with "class 1 division 1", and having read all of the responses to your inquiry, not one "so-called" professional has mentioned the fact that you need to have a bank of isolation relays (ice cube type)





Mr. Sparkle said:


> Who exactly is this directed to?
> 
> I'm gonna go ahead and assume you are referring to me.......if not...nah pretty sure it's me.


Not at all, you asked a good question and received some good and interesting replys. Until the new guy jumped in with both feet in his mouth. I would not have made the comment if "Larryt" would have commented without the "not one "SO CALLED PROFESSIONAL" has mentioned blah blah


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## Total Power (Nov 22, 2009)

rlc3854 said:


> Not at all, you asked a good question and received some good and interesting replys. Until the new guy jumped in with both feet in his mouth. I would not have made the comment if "Larryt" would have commented without the "not one "SO CALLED PROFESSIONAL" has mentioned blah blah


 

I would have bet money that was directed at me - guess that's why I'm not rich

LOL


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## Old Spark (Nov 18, 2008)

You are right Larry. Since several dispensers sends 120 volts to the electrical room to turn on the same turbine relay. We used to tie all those together and send one wire to the relay. The danger is: this sends 120 volts back to each dispenser, even one that is turned off. The isolation relays prevent this from happening. You are right also that you can use ice cube relays to accomplish this, but here in Calif. most projects now include turbine relays with built in isolation. This saves the electrician from having to purchase ice cube relays and building a system. The only factory turbine relays I don't like are the Gilbarco because they are not true isolation relays, they use capacitors and they will work as long as every dispenser is on the same phase, if one is on a different phase it will distroy the Gilbarco Relay. The others are true isolation relays and will work even if you happen to have a dispenser on a different phase. We've always been taught that all dispensers and the tank monitor system should always be on the same phase, I have seen projects where the dispensers were on different phases and no problems were encountered. Of course they had true isolation relays. I still am uncomfortable to see the dispensers on different phases. There has been another change in recent years, the 120 volts from the dispensers no longer turns on the turbine like it used to. Now the 120 volts goes to the tank monitor system so it can turn off the turbines if a leak occures, and a different 120 volts from the monitor turns on the turbine relay. This has caused us to change our emergency shut off system also. We used to install several 4 pole contactors and ran the hot and neutral from each dispenser thru these contactors. (two dispensers per four pole contactor) The emergency shut off system would open every contactor with the push of one button. This disconnected all hot and neutrals to every dispenser. This is all we needed to do, because the turbine could not turn on without dispenser power. Now we have to add more contactors to break either all the turbine hots or turbine coil hots or turbine coil neutrals since the tank monitor turns on the turbines to test for leaks and it will turn on the turbines even in an emergency if the turbine wires are not included in the emergency shut off system.
For you guys who all ready know this stuff, it not for you, it's for the new guys.
David


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