# Geek Squad audio signal loss issues.



## ohm it hertz (Dec 2, 2020)

I'm nearing the end of a large high end basement job which included an AV system roughed in and installed by Best Buy. They took a video of a problem I don't quite understand, but it leaves me on the hook to figure out. Their audio is cutting out/popping on one circuit, but goes away if plugged in on another circuit. The problem equipment is protected by a dual function 20 amp breaker dedicated to receptacles only, no LED drivers or lights, and nothing else operating at the time of the test. What could be causing this?

There are two tv sets with networked equipment mounted to them on the same circuit. Is it possible the second set is causing interference? I've never encountered this before. Both rooms have hardwired speakers, so it's not a WiFi issue.

This is their AV rack, which is a separate dedicated circuit. All of their low voltage speaker wire and cabling runs into that white media box on the left.










And this is the problem equipment on the right in the lower photo (ignore the mixed lighting). Tests 122v with proper ground and polarity.



















I will be returning to this job on Monday to troubleshoot more. Any pointers? Dual function breaker maybe?


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

why the fk are YOU on the hook for this?


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## ohm it hertz (Dec 2, 2020)

Majewski said:


> why the fk are YOU on the hook for this?


I'll rephrase. I'm on the hook for the weekend until I talk with them Monday. Their video shows it working fine on one circuit but not on another in real time. The GC, HO and Best Buy are all pointing their finger at me, so I need some ammunition to shoot back at them for Monday. It doesn't make sense to me that their equipment isn't working consistently no matter which circuit they use. Ideally I want to prove their hardware is the problem.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

I just dont see how its your problem at all.


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## Slay301 (Apr 23, 2018)

Ones on a gfi ones not??? Gfi causing interference??


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Slay301 said:


> Ones on a gfi ones not??? Gfi causing interference??


Entire basement will be gfi


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## Slay301 (Apr 23, 2018)

Majewski said:


> Entire basement will be gfi


Should be doesn’t mean it is… also could just be the gfi on the ckt sounds like dirty power somewhere 

also your mother is on a gfi


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Slay301 said:


> Should be doesn’t mean it is… also could just be the gfi on the ckt sounds like dirty power somewhere
> 
> also your mother is on a gfi


Its fair to guess its all a permitted job and per code


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Slay301 said:


> Should be doesn’t mean it is… also could just be the gfi on the ckt sounds like dirty power somewhere
> 
> also your mother is on a gfi


Her gfi failed thus she died


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## Slay301 (Apr 23, 2018)

Majewski said:


> Its fair to guess its all a permitted job and per code


Guess who didn’t put gfi in his basement …this guy


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Slay301 said:


> Guess who didn’t put gfi in his basement …this guy


YOU DOG YOU!


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## Slay301 (Apr 23, 2018)

Majewski said:


> YOU DOG YOU!


I like to live on the dangerous side.


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## Ty the electric guy (Feb 16, 2014)

I might try swapping phases


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Ty the electric guy said:


> I might try swapping phases


how, its single phase? got a magic wand up your booty?


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Slay301 said:


> I like to live on the dangerous side.


so does our mom


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## Ty the electric guy (Feb 16, 2014)

Majewski said:


> how, its single phase? got a magic wand up your booty?


As in switching the 120v receptacle to the other phase in the panel. Sometimes there is a larger 120v load(water pump,etc)that drops the voltage on that leg.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Ty the electric guy said:


> As in switching the 120v receptacle to the other phase in the panel. Sometimes there is a larger 120v load(water pump,etc)that drops the voltage on that leg.


ITS ALL THE SAME PHASE


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## Ty the electric guy (Feb 16, 2014)

Majewski said:


> ITS ALL THE SAME PHASE


Sorry, is leg the right terminology???? I have had to do this in lots of rural homes that have long overhead runs from poco transformer. When the 120v water pumps turns on the lights flicker. Solution: move breaker down one space so that it’s on the other LEG.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Ty the electric guy said:


> Sorry, is leg the right terminology???? I have had to do this in lots of rural homes that have long overhead runs from poco transformer. When the 120v water pumps turns on the lights flicker. Solution: move breaker down one space so that it’s on the other LEG.


stop lying


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## cuba_pete (Dec 8, 2011)

Check for ground loops and/or difference of ground potential between the cable system for the TVs and the power for the TV/audio equipment. If the cable system has injected power/bias power whether on newer digital or older analog distribution, there can be a significant difference of potential there. In the amplifier sections of AV distribution the balanced speaker outputs can enhance power hum, clicks and pops from building infrastructure (HVAC, security systems, lighting, controllers of any sort), common mode interference, and even radiated interference even though your gear might be in a nicely shielded enclosure (at what bond potential?). Unbalanced signals can and will do the same, just differently.

I’d check out the same for the computer and network equipment. I’ve gone so far as to run strapping between parts of a computer tower due to the poor conductivity in some builds. I’ve come across several very noisy computers over the years. 

What is that conduit to the right of the AV cabinet? That almost looks like a waveguide.

I can demonstrate in a controlled environment how mouse movements, touch screens, monitor intensity changes, and even clock rates from computers can be picked up and amplified for relatively easy to hear interference.

Corrective actions can be as easy as putting in a few well placed ground straps and some ferrites.

RESIST the urge to lift grounds or use isolation transformers as band-aids. Those are only troubleshooting tools, not solutions.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

cuba_pete said:


> Check for ground loops and/or difference of ground potential between the cable system for the TVs and the power for the TV/audio equipment. If the cable system has injected power/bias power whether on newer digital or older analog distribution, there can be a significant difference of potential there. In the amplifier sections of AV distribution the balanced speaker outputs can enhance power hum, clicks and pops from building infrastructure (HVAC, security systems, lighting, controllers of any sort), common mode interference, and even radiated interference even though your gear might be in a nicely shielded enclosure (at what bond potential?).
> 
> I can demonstrate in a controlled environment how mouse movements, touch screens, monitor intensity changes, and even clock rates from computers can be picked up and amplified for relatively easy to hear interference.
> 
> ...


Its not HIS equipment or responsibility.


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## cuba_pete (Dec 8, 2011)

People hear the hum and say “dirty power” and they don’t understand why they’re getting cussed at all of a sudden.


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## dspiffy (Nov 25, 2013)

What Pete said. Either noise, ground, or both. What else is on the problematic circuit? Are both circuits on the same phase?

Running a temporary dedicated ground might also be a clue.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

dspiffy said:


> What Pete said. Either noise, ground, or both. What else is on the problematic circuit? Are both circuits on the same phase?
> 
> Running a temporary dedicated ground might also be a clue.


….It’s single phase….


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

cuba_pete said:


> What is that conduit to the right of the AV cabinet? That almost looks like a waveguide.


That's holding the house up.


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## NoBot (Oct 12, 2019)

Try placing all the equipment, including TV's on the same 120V leg in the panel.
Equipment on different 120V legs has been known to cause problems.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Keep in mind here that you can't rule out potentially hazardous voltage on the grounds that could injure someone (like you), damage equipment, or even start a fire. It's probably not, but you can't rule it out so be careful, treat those ground wires like live wires (they might be). For example it's possible to have weird problems like this due to a neighbor's service neutral.

My first priority would be to make sure your work is electrically sound so that if anything happens, it's not on you. In particular, check the ground of that dedicated receptacle, and the ground on the receptacle they had no trouble with. *The trouble free receptacle could very well be the one with the wiring issue. *You also want to make sure you don't have any unintentional shorts from neutral to ground in that circuit, so there's unintentional current on the ground (harder to test).

Then I'd want the problem narrowed down some by the Best Buy jackoffs. Keep in mind their level of expertise might be zilch, sometimes I think they send the people that can't learn to work the registers to the squad. I wouldn't want to tinker with their stuff and be on the hook if something gets damaged, whether it's your fault or not, if you touched it last, the homeowner will be looking at you. It might be best to pick a day and tell them to have those guys on site to work with you.

Assuming there's an AV receiver in there, with everything unplugged from the receiver - all the audio inputs and outputs - and say just a phone running on it's battery with a cord from the headphone jack to one of the inputs, and a speaker or pair of speakers jumpered into the receiver audio outs - can they reproduce the problem that way? If not, it's back in their court, the issue is coming from the equipment or from shields on their cabling or etc. Now ultimately that could be an electrical issue at a connected TV or etc., which could be your issue, but it's on them to isolate the problem further.

It could be the speaker wiring is picking up noise from the wiring of the circuit powering the cabinet itself, and if you power the cabinet from another source, it's not inducing noise onto the speaker wires. This could be happening between the wall and the cabinet  - I am seeing coiled up bundles around the back and top of that cabinet and near the power cord. Sometimes these guys hang themselves with their slack.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

splatz said:


> Keep in mind here that you can't rule out potentially hazardous voltage on the grounds that could injure someone (like you), damage equipment, or even start a fire. It's probably not, but you can't rule it out so be careful, treat those ground wires like live wires (they might be). For example it's possible to have weird problems like this due to a neighbor's service neutral.
> 
> My first priority would be to make sure your work is electrically sound so that if anything happens, it's not on you. In particular, check the ground of that dedicated receptacle, and the ground on the receptacle they had no trouble with. *The trouble free receptacle could very well be the one with the wiring issue. *You also want to make sure you don't have any unintentional shorts from neutral to ground in that circuit, so there's unintentional current on the ground (harder to test).
> 
> ...


lol its a loose wago and the neighbors lost neutral.


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

Is there a ferrite bead on the cord for the "high end equipment"?
If not, then it's not high end equipment.

If that installer needs power conditioning, he needs to spec it. There are ways to do it, at a cost. Every home is going to have that compressor that kicks on, etc. 

An isolated ground receptacle is another consideration.


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## Bourbon County (Aug 19, 2020)

I built a home theater in my own home a few years ago and read lots of articles and blogs about such issues. These people go absolutely batshit crazy about perceived power quality issues and there's always someone out there with a snake oil device to solve your problems. 

There's really not that much equipment in that rack, hopefully the salesman was on commission. look at the device on the right hand side of the window slightly above the door latch that looks like it's sitting on the folding sawhorse. Is that a power conditioner? Furman and Paramax seem to be the favorites of high end audio enthusiasts, I don't recognize that particular model. If it is indeed a power conditioner, look at the 2 displays; one shows 122 which might be incoming voltage which matches what you measured. The other display reads 17, is that amps? If that display is amps, you're very close to overloaded and that's just a 15 amp receptacle. Power conditioners are much more concerned about overvoltage and usually lock out around 135-138 volts, some have under voltage protection and are only concerned if line voltage drops to 80-90% for a fairly extended period, like a minute or more. This might be a good place to start looking.

You didn't say, but is the receiver/amp power actually dropping out or just the audio output? When it does drop out, does it restart on it's own or does the system have to be manually restarted? If it's only the audio output, the issue could lie in an input device. For the most part, audio equipment is most sensitive on the input side like turntable, media player, Blu-ray players, cable/satellite boxes; speakers are generally not that sensitive to interference so long as any concealed wiring keeps some distance from power wiring and crosses power wires at a right angle. The popping sounds from the speakers may or may not be part of the same issue. Look at the cable/satellite coax shield grounding, them along with landline phone systems are notorious for creating high impedance ground paths. I personally think the intersystem grounding blocks are one of the best things to come along in a long time.

Another place to look, although a long shot is are there LED lights on a dimmer? LED dimmers are extremely noisy electrically speaking. I've read many blogs about people spiral wrapping a 10 gauge bare copper stranded wire around an NM cable to prevent this. Seems pretty extreme to me, what's wrong with old fashioned incandescent in a media room? The only time the lights will be on is when you're cleaning, entering/exiting the room or just showing off. 

An isolated ground receptacle would only result in the client getting an overpriced orange receptacle. In a residence wired with NM cable and non metallic boxes, the only thing you're isolating is the device strap and the 2 mounting screws for the plastic plate which would create a code violation.


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

Maybe a stupid observation but you said dual function breaker and the AV rack looks like it's plugged into a GFCI outlet, I was always taught it's bad practice to have GFCIs feed other GFCIs.


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## dspiffy (Nov 25, 2013)

I've done many sound installs for churches. Noise issues are sometimes impossible to eliminate entirely, but my usual method was:


Making sure everything was on the same circuit if possible. If multiple circuits were needed, making sure they were on the same panel. Same phase wasnt usually an issue
Making sure nothing with dimmers or fan controls was on the same circuit. If possible, a different panel
Isolating grounds
Lifting grounds on certain equipment (preferably on the audio side)
Always using balanced and shielded audio cables when possible

At that point, whatever wasnt solved was usually an issue of unbalanced or unshielded audio equipment.


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## dspiffy (Nov 25, 2013)

I mean, there are reasons why a lot of large venues have dedicated panels for audio, and sometimes even a dedicated service.


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

Audio should be on a separate dedicated circuit.
Never a MWBC.
Avoid being on any lighting circuits if there are florescent or dimmers on the circuit.

No noise on one receptacle, so likely there is something noisy on the circuit it's on. ... Should have been dedicated to begin with.

Swapping phases might be a quick fix for you.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Bourbon County said:


> I built a home theater in my own home a few years ago and read lots of articles and blogs about such issues. These people go absolutely batshit crazy about perceived power quality issues and there's always someone out there with a snake oil device to solve your problems.
> 
> There's really not that much equipment in that rack, hopefully the salesman was on commission. look at the device on the right hand side of the window slightly above the door latch that looks like it's sitting on the folding sawhorse. Is that a power conditioner? Furman and Paramax seem to be the favorites of high end audio enthusiasts, I don't recognize that particular model. If it is indeed a power conditioner, look at the 2 displays; one shows 122 which might be incoming voltage which matches what you measured. The other display reads 17, is that amps? If that display is amps, you're very close to overloaded and that's just a 15 amp receptacle. Power conditioners are much more concerned about overvoltage and usually lock out around 135-138 volts, some have under voltage protection and are only concerned if line voltage drops to 80-90% for a fairly extended period, like a minute or more. This might be a good place to start looking.
> 
> ...


might be a 20a ct tho


yankeejoe1141 said:


> Maybe a stupid observation but you said dual function breaker and the AV rack looks like it's plugged into a GFCI outlet, I was always taught it's bad practice to have GFCIs feed other GFCIs.


Its fine


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## ohm it hertz (Dec 2, 2020)

Ty the electric guy said:


> I might try swapping phases


This is where I will start out.



dspiffy said:


> What Pete said. Either noise, ground, or both. What else is on the problematic circuit? Are both circuits on the same phase?


The problem circuit has two TV sets with cable boxes located at different receptacles. I have a strange hunch that if I disconnect the unaffected set that's on the same circuit, the problem set will function fine and vice versa.

I am unsure if these 2 circuits are on the same phase. I will check this also tomorrow.




MikeFL said:


> Is there a ferrite bead on the cord for the "high end equipment"?
> If not, then it's not high end equipment.


I didn't look closely at the equipment. I will check this out and post back.



yankeejoe1141 said:


> Maybe a stupid observation but you said dual function breaker and the AV rack looks like it's plugged into a GFCI outlet, I was always taught it's bad practice to have GFCIs feed other GFCIs.


Sorry, I think I didn't explain well enough. The AV rack is a dedicated GFCI on arc fault breaker. The problem circuit with the TVs is on a dual function breaker.

I really appreciate all of the responses. Sometimes it just takes a fresh set of eyes. I'll post back tomorrow as I troubleshoot.[/QUOTE]


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

ohm it hertz said:


> This is where I will start out.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]
its SINGLE PHASE lol..
why is this on afci?


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## ohm it hertz (Dec 2, 2020)

Whoops. It's a dedicated AV _circuit, _I misspoke. There's one receptacle protected by the GFCI that feeds the theater projector, which is finished space.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

ohm it hertz said:


> Whoops. It's a dedicated AV _circuit, _I misspoke. There's one receptacle protected by the GFCI that feeds the theater projector, which is finished space.


why. is. it. on. afci.


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## ohm it hertz (Dec 2, 2020)

Majewski said:


> why. is. it. on. afci.


210.12(A) Finished basements.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

ohm it hertz said:


> 210.12(A) Finished basements.


huh?


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## Slay301 (Apr 23, 2018)

yankeejoe1141 said:


> Maybe a stupid observation but you said dual function breaker and the AV rack looks like it's plugged into a GFCI outlet, I was always taught it's bad practice to have GFCIs feed other GFCIs.


Yep


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Slay301 said:


> Yep


Yep what


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Majewski said:


> how, its single phase? got a magic wand up your booty?


The suggestion is to find out If they work better on the same phase.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Southeast Power said:


> The suggestion is to find out If they work better on the same phase.


Uh… seeing as its single phase…… itll be on the same phase no matter what.


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

Majewski said:


> Uh… seeing as its single phase…… itll be on the same phase no matter what.


Single phase 240, so when the neutral splits it down to 120, jump to the other leg and neutral for the other 120.


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

Majewski said:


> Uh… seeing as its single phase…… itll be on the same phase no matter what.


I don’t understand what point you’re trying to drive home by keep asking the same question over and over? Single phase 240 split by the neutral, standard 120 receptacles are on one side or the other.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

yankeejoe1141 said:


> I don’t understand what point you’re trying to drive home by keep asking the same question over and over? Single phase 240 split by the neutral, standard 120 receptacles are on one side or the other.


Im not asking anything there lol


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

Majewski said:


> Im not asking anything there lol


Oh my bad, lol, you threw me off cause you keep bringing up the single phase aspect and I don’t get how it’s relevant.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

yankeejoe1141 said:


> Oh my bad, lol, you threw me off cause you keep bringing up the single phase aspect and I don’t get how it’s relevant.


Because everyone is being a dumb dumb saying switch phases…. Or the bs about a gfi on a gfi 

i still dont know why this room has afci lol


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## ohm it hertz (Dec 2, 2020)

...............


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

Majewski said:


> Because everyone is being a dumb dumb saying switch phases…. Or the bs about a gfi on a gfi
> 
> i still dont know why this room has afci lol


I said the BS about the GFCi’s because that is a stupid set up, fastest way to lose $20 no doubt.

Everyone is recommending to switch phases because they’re offering idea’s to try and help the OP.

AFCI because it’s code.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

yankeejoe1141 said:


> I said the BS about the GFCi’s because that is a stupid set up, fastest way to lose $20 no doubt.
> 
> Everyone is recommending to switch phases because they’re offering idea’s to try and help the OP.
> 
> AFCI because it’s code.


How do u know what was paid?
How do u know its code? What type of room is it?


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

Majewski said:


> How do u know what was paid?
> How do u know its code? What type of room is it?


Lol, maybe I exaggerated a few bucks…who cares?
Family room, cause who’s not going to want to be in a room like that?


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

yankeejoe1141 said:


> Lol, maybe I exaggerated a few bucks…who cares?
> Family room, cause who’s not going to want to be in a room like that?


Av rack inside a newly remodeled family room?


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

Majewski said:


> Av rack inside a newly remodeled family room?


Yeah sure let’s go with that, you satisfied he needs an AFCI in there?


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

yankeejoe1141 said:


> Yeah sure let’s go with that, you satisfied he needs an AFCI in there?


Doesnt add up stop lying to me! Lol


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

Majewski said:


> Doesnt add up stop lying to me! Lol


Check your math bro.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

yankeejoe1141 said:


> Check your math bro.


no more lies! also, are we the only ones on the forum right now? lol


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

Majewski said:


> no more lies! also, are we the only ones on the forum right now? lol


I think so, everyone else drooling on their pillow. I’ll be there soon too.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

yankeejoe1141 said:


> I think so, everyone else drooling on their pillow. I’ll be there soon too.


sounds nice


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

Majewski said:


> sounds nice


You don’t sleep? Seems like you’re on here 24/7


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

yankeejoe1141 said:


> You don’t sleep? Seems like you’re on here 24/7


i do not


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

Majewski said:


> i do not


Dude, you should try it, feels good.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

yankeejoe1141 said:


> Dude, you should try it, feels good.


i do, often.


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## cuba_pete (Dec 8, 2011)

Hey you two! Go to bed!


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

cuba_pete said:


> Hey you two! Go to bed!


I dont sleep buddy


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

cuba_pete said:


> Hey you two! Go to bed!


I’m on my way…wife yelling at me anyway, lol!


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

yankeejoe1141 said:


> I’m on my way…wife yelling at me anyway, lol!


Sounds hot


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

Cause she don’t!


Majewski said:


> Sounds hot


Yeah! She‘s got the heat turned up like she don’t pay for the oil because she doesn’t!!!!


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

yankeejoe1141 said:


> Cause she don’t!
> Yeah! She‘s got the heat turned up like she don’t pay for the oil because she doesn’t!!!!


Lol


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

Majewski said:


> Lol


Somebody’s got to feel my pain tho…please somebody else feel my pain bro…I’ve got better things to do next weekend yo!!!


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

yankeejoe1141 said:


> Somebody’s got to feel my pain tho…please somebody else feel my pain bro…I’ve got better things to do next weekend yo!!!


Ill be in maui next weekend


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

Majewski said:


> Ill be in maui next weekend


I hate you cause I’m jealous.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

yankeejoe1141 said:


> I hate you cause I’m jealous.


Me too


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

Majewski said:


> Ill be in maui next weekend


Where’s Maui can I drive there?


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

yankeejoe1141 said:


> Where’s Maui can I drive there?


Sure


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

Majewski said:


> Sure


Hope you have a good vacation, some people might think you deserve it, idk?


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

yankeejoe1141 said:


> Hope you have a good vacation, some people might think you deserve it, idk?


Depends who u ask lol


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

Majewski said:


> Depends who u ask lol


Did your apprentice pay for your plane ticket? That’s the question.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

yankeejoe1141 said:


> Did your apprentice pay for your plane ticket? That’s the question.


I brought the apprentice on the last trip actually


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

Majewski said:


> I brought the apprentice on the last trip actually


Lucky bastard… my apprentice trip was to Iraq. WTF did I do wrong?


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

yankeejoe1141 said:


> Lucky bastard… my apprentice trip was to Iraq. WTF did I do wrong?


U signed the dotted line


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

Majewski said:


> U signed the dotted line


Uncle Sam’s Misguided Children


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

Majewski said:


> U signed the dotted line


Or as someone pointed out to me… USMC = You Signed the Motherfriggin Contract!


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

yankeejoe1141 said:


> Or as someone pointed out to me… USMC = You Signed the Motherfriggin Contract!


Or that lol


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

Majewski said:


> Or that lol


Yeah they got you at that point!


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

yankeejoe1141 said:


> Yeah they got you at that point!


I avoided all that


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## Slay301 (Apr 23, 2018)

Majewski said:


> Yep what


A gfci on a gfci breaker doesn’t usually end to well


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

What's the issue doubling up GFCIs? Other than of course having to check both when either one trips.


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## Slay301 (Apr 23, 2018)

splatz said:


> What's the issue doubling up GFCIs? Other than of course having to check both when either one trips.


The electronics interfere with each other and trip often/instantly wonder if it’s a mwbc that hes
Shared the noodle on too


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## ohm it hertz (Dec 2, 2020)

No MWBC this time around due to the availability issues of the breakers. I'm heading there now I'll keep you posted.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Two gfis are totally fine lol


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## ohm it hertz (Dec 2, 2020)

Hey everyone,

Best Buy tested their equipment after I swapped phases and everything works as expected.

Thanks for all the input and advice.


----------



## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

ohm it hertz said:


> Hey everyone,
> 
> Best Buy tested their equipment after I swapped phases and everything works as expected.
> 
> Thanks for all the input and advice.


oh so it is a two phase system?


----------



## Ty the electric guy (Feb 16, 2014)

Majewski said:


> oh so it is a two phase system?


Hahaha. Oh it’s funny that it worked after all the whining about single phase.


----------



## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Ty the electric guy said:


> Hahaha. Oh it’s funny that it worked after all the whining about single phase.


no whining just trying to help these idiots... lol


----------



## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

Majewski said:


> oh so it is a two phase system?


Who knew


----------



## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

yankeejoe1141 said:


> Who knew


Youre all killin me lol


----------



## Slay301 (Apr 23, 2018)

Majewski said:


> oh so it is a two phase system?


So is 3 phase actually 2 phase?


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Slay301 said:


> So is 3 phase actually 2 phase?


Nope. 2 is 2 and 3 is 3.


----------



## Ty the electric guy (Feb 16, 2014)

Majewski said:


> Nope. 2 is 2 and 3 is 3.


I think we all know your technically right. I think it’s pretty common to call the 2 different 120v legs of a single phase system opposite phases. Even though this isn’t true.


----------



## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

Single phase, the 2 legs are 180˚ apart. So they have a phase difference.

What if I switched the 2 legs on a 208V system. 2 phases of a 3 phase transformer ... what's the difference (apart from 60˚) 

😂


----------



## Bourbon County (Aug 19, 2020)

ohm it hertz said:


> Hey everyone,
> 
> Best Buy tested their equipment after I swapped phases and everything works as expected.
> 
> Thanks for all the input and advice.


So what was wrong with the phase you swapped off of?


----------



## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

Slay301 said:


> The electronics interfere with each other and trip often/instantly


that does not seem to be true, I've seen many GFCI receptacles fed by load side of another GFCI. Never saw it cause a tripping problem, usually a "finding it" problem (often caused by HI's tester)


----------



## Slay301 (Apr 23, 2018)

readydave8 said:


> that does not seem to be true, I've seen many GFCI receptacles fed by load side of another GFCI. Never saw it cause a tripping problem, usually a "finding it" problem (often caused by HI's tester)


I’m saying gfi breaker and gfi recep.


----------



## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Slay301 said:


> I’m saying gfi breaker and gfi recep.


shut up! lol


----------



## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

Slay301 said:


> I’m saying gfi breaker and gfi recep.


I agree, it’s a stupid set up and a waste of a GFCI recep.


----------



## ohm it hertz (Dec 2, 2020)

Bourbon County said:


> So what was wrong with the phase you swapped off of?


Functionally, nothing. However not all of the AV equipment was on the same phase in other rooms either. So I moved all of them to the same phase and we couldn't duplicate the problem again anywhere. I also moved some of their cables away from my wire that shared the same stud bay at the problem equipment. I'm just happy I didn't waste a whole day on it.


----------



## SWDweller (Dec 9, 2020)

Hum can be a burger to find. I have seen pro auto setups that if you did not put in an isolation transformer you could not hear the band for the squealing over the audio. I got a bunch of small braided ground strips and gave them to my buddy doing sound work. I made him pay up for an 75 kva isolation transformer that all of his stuff was plugged into. Kept the transformer on a low cart on wheels. It was a pain in the ass to set up and tear down but he could go to places in the rural Midwest and do shows. Small fortune in stranded cables. 

The fault was in how the electronics was made since you could negate the problem by feeding everything on the same phase. Some of the audio equipment I have seen is so sensitive you need a bloody lab to use it correctly. The stuff made to be portable is made better. It is the rack stuff that drives us to drink, more.


----------



## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Slay301 said:


> The electronics interfere with each other and trip often/instantly wonder if it’s a mwbc that hes
> Shared the noodle on too





yankeejoe1141 said:


> I agree, it’s a stupid set up and a waste of a GFCI recep.


I asked because I've never actually seen a problem with doubled up GFCI. I wouldn't say for sure but since the electronics work on little CT rings / coils in the GFCI, I am skeptical the electronics could get confused by another GFCI downstream. Now AFCI - anything's possible. 

I am always cautious about a single point of failure, and I don't have that much faith in a single GFCI device.


----------



## Slay301 (Apr 23, 2018)

I’ve seen it in residential and commercial kitchen could have just been my experience


----------



## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Slay301 said:


> I’ve seen it in residential and commercial kitchen could have just been my experience


Shut up you


----------



## Slay301 (Apr 23, 2018)

Majewski said:


> Shut up you


Smd


----------



## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Slay301 said:


> Smd


K


----------



## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Slay301 said:


> I’ve seen it in residential and commercial kitchen could have just been my experience


... I wouldn't be surprised if the new self test nonsense makes them worse.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

splatz said:


> ... I wouldn't be surprised if the new self test nonsense makes them worse.


yall crazy


----------



## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

splatz said:


> I asked because I've never actually seen a problem with doubled up GFCI. I wouldn't say for sure but since the electronics work on little CT rings / coils in the GFCI, I am skeptical the electronics could get confused by another GFCI downstream. Now AFCI - anything's possible.
> 
> I am always cautious about a single point of failure, and I don't have that much faith in a single GFCI device.


Long time ago I had a problem in a house with nuisance GFCI tripping, found a GFCI feeding a GFCI, slimed it down to just one GFCI and had no more problem so from then on, I'm always careful not to feed them from one another. Plus I don't see the point in complicating things for no good reason, it doesn't give you and more protection having two vs just one.


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

Majewski said:


> yall crazy


Hello kettle.


----------



## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

im devicing a house today and i swear to krist, imma do each one a gfci!


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

yankeejoe1141 said:


> Long time ago I had a problem in a house with nuisance GFCI tripping, found a GFCI feeding a GFCI, slimed it down to just one GFCI and had no more problem so from then on, I'm always careful not to feed them from one another. Plus I don't see the point in complicating things for no good reason,* it doesn't give you and more protection having two vs just one.*


That's interesting did both devices nuisance trip? Even if so, it's just one incident, it "counts" but by itself I don't make any conclusions.


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

Majewski said:


> im devicing a house today and i swear to krist, imma do each one a gfci!


Well if you like throwing money around I'll send you my address.


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

splatz said:


> That's interesting did both devices nuisance trip? Even if so, it's just one incident, it "counts" but by itself I don't make any conclusions.


It was a long time ago but if I recall I think the upstream one had the problem, I replaced the down stream one with a standard receptacle and problem stopped, upstream one worked under load. I meant to say it doesn't give you *any* more protection, not and protection...


----------



## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

splatz said:


> That's interesting did both devices nuisance trip? Even if so, it's just one incident, it "counts" but by itself I don't make any conclusions.


But why would people advocate to have GFCI's feed other GFCI's? I don't see the benefit from it.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

yankeejoe1141 said:


> But why would people advocate to have GFCI's feed other GFCI's? I don't see the benefit from it.


Pure sillyness or oddball scenario where its the lesser of two evils


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

I've seen many GFCIs feeding a GFCI.

Usually one bathroom GFCI feeding regular recept in the 2nd bathroom.
Homeowner decides the 2nd bath should have a GFCI ... The only issue is tripping the other GFCI, then they swear at that GFCI 'cause nothing was plugged into it, and it trips'


A GFCI could 'possibly' cause noise in audio thou. It sends out a small 120hz signal to detect ground faults without a load.


----------



## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

emtnut said:


> I've seen many GFCIs feeding a GFCI.
> 
> Usually one bathroom GFCI feeding regular recept in the 2nd bathroom.
> Homeowner decides the 2nd bath should have a GFCI ... The only issue is tripping the other GFCI, then they swear at that GFCI 'cause nothing was plugged into it, and it trips'
> ...


Saw this too last year in a condo, HO says second floor plug is dead and no breakers are tripped. Took me a few minutes but figured out the first floor GFCI was loaded to the second floor and tripped. 
Another good reason not to feed them from each other...it screams DIY.


----------



## splatz (May 23, 2015)

yankeejoe1141 said:


> It was a long time ago but if I recall I think the upstream one had the problem, I replaced the down stream one with a standard receptacle and problem stopped, upstream one worked under load. I meant to say it doesn't give you *any* more protection, not and protection...


But it does give you more protection. It's just the basic idea of redundancy to eliminate a single point of failure. If you use one GFCI and it works as it should, it protects just the same as two. If it fails, it no longer protects at all. The idea of redundancy is to eliminate single point of failure by setting things up so that if one single component fails, the system still functions. If you use two in series, and one fails, you still have 100% protection. That makes it far more reliable.


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

splatz said:


> But it does give you more protection. It's just the basic idea of redundancy to eliminate a single point of failure. If you use one GFCI and it works as it should, it protects just the same as two. If it fails, it no longer protects at all. The idea of redundancy is to eliminate single point of failure by setting things up so that if one single component fails, the system still functions. If you use two in series, and one fails, you still have 100% protection. That makes it far more reliable.


Ok yes, from the point of redundancy two is more than one, I meant more protection in the amount of unbalanced current in the circuit.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

yankeejoe1141 said:


> Ok yes, from the point of redundancy two is more than one, I meant more protection in the amount of unbalanced current in the circuit.


just you hush!


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

Majewski said:


> just you hush!


C’mon, if I kept quiet about the terrible idea of feeding gfci’s from other gfci’s…..then how would anyone know what to do about flickering led lights?


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## Slay301 (Apr 23, 2018)

yankeejoe1141 said:


> But why would people advocate to have GFCI's feed other GFCI's? I don't see the benefit from it.


In my case it was a home inspector not realizing they had a gfi breaker and changed the duplex in bathroom out rona gfi

and the commercial kitchen was an engineering issue


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

Slay301 said:


> In my case it was a home inspector not realizing they had a gfi breaker and changed the duplex in bathroom out rona gfi
> 
> and the commercial kitchen was an engineering issue


Gotta love those home inspectors!


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

yankeejoe1141 said:


> C’mon, if I kept quiet about the terrible idea of feeding gfci’s from other gfci’s…..then how would anyone know what to do about flickering led lights?


Youre not the hero we deserve, you’re the hero we need!


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

Majewski said:


> Youre not the hero we deserve, you’re the hero we need!


Oh stop it, I’m just a mere mortal doing immortal things…but if any powers that be are watching, I’ll take my wings in size large please.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

yankeejoe1141 said:


> Oh stop it, I’m just a mere mortal doing immortal things…but if any powers that be are watching, I’ll take my wings in size large please.


chicken wings!?


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## R777V (May 16, 2016)

Can I get mine in 2xl!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

R777V said:


> Can I get mine in 2xl!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


sure why not


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## R777V (May 16, 2016)

Majewski said:


> sure why not


I put on a pound or 2 since my HS days.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

R777V said:


> I put on a pound or 2 since my HS days.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


i think i was chunky then like i am now.....280lbs....4'10.


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

Majewski said:


> chicken wings!?


With extra buffalo sauce!


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

yankeejoe1141 said:


> With extra buffalo sauce!


yumm


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## Klee (Nov 21, 2013)

Majewski said:


> ITS ALL THE SAME PHASE


On what planet. Separate phases.


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

Klee said:


> On what planet. Separate phases.


Awesome 1st post


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

....just when you thought we solved all the world problems on this thread...


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Klee said:


> On what planet. Separate phases.


Explain o wise one


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

🍿


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## taglicious (Feb 8, 2020)

MikeFL said:


> Is there a ferrite bead on the cord for the "high end equipment"?
> If not, then it's not high end equipment.
> 
> If that installer needs power conditioning, he needs to spec it. There are ways to do it, at a cost. Every home is going to have that compressor that kicks on, etc.
> ...


That ferrite bead bit makes me lol I’ve been using that comment for years🤣


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## Been there done that (Dec 8, 2021)

ohm it hertz said:


> I'm nearing the end of a large high end basement job which included an AV system roughed in and installed by Best Buy. They took a video of a problem I don't quite understand, but it leaves me on the hook to figure out. Their audio is cutting out/popping on one circuit, but goes away if plugged in on another circuit. The problem equipment is protected by a dual function 20 amp breaker dedicated to receptacles only, no LED drivers or lights, and nothing else operating at the time of the test. What could be causing this?
> 
> There are two tv sets with networked equipment mounted to them on the same circuit. Is it possible the second set is causing interference? I've never encountered this before. Both rooms have hardwired speakers, so it's not a WiFi issue.
> 
> ...


With past experiences with a/v gear...once in a while the internal power supply of a component is mfg with a reverse polarity. It means nothing for the component but has sometimes issues with the associated gfi circuit. I would unplug each individual component and test this way.


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

Been there done that said:


> With past experiences with a/v gear...once in a while the internal power supply of a component is mfg with a reverse polarity. It means nothing for the component but has sometimes issues with the associated gfi circuit. I would unplug each individual component and test this way.


GFCI problems huh?


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## poncho144 (Apr 7, 2018)

Check ALL the grounds....jus say'n...


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

poncho144 said:


> Check ALL the grounds....jus say'n...


Interrupted Circuit due to a Faulty Ground.


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## cutlerhammer (Aug 16, 2011)

ohm it hertz said:


> I'm nearing the end of a large high end basement job which included an AV system roughed in and installed by Best Buy. They took a video of a problem I don't quite understand, but it leaves me on the hook to figure out. Their audio is cutting out/popping on one circuit, but goes away if plugged in on another circuit. The problem equipment is protected by a dual function 20 amp breaker dedicated to receptacles only, no LED drivers or lights, and nothing else operating at the time of the test. What could be causing this?
> 
> There are two tv sets with networked equipment mounted to them on the same circuit. Is it possible the second set is causing interference? I've never encountered this before. Both rooms have hardwired speakers, so it's not a WiFi issue.
> 
> ...


If possible, run all the A/V equipment and shut off all lighting, dimmer-controlled lighting, and try to isolate where you are getting the "noise." You may have to add some ferrite chokes to some power lines in the affected areas. Just try to isolate the "culprit." There is something causing the noise.


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## cutlerhammer (Aug 16, 2011)

Majewski said:


> ….It’s single phase….


It might be called "single phase," but it is actually two phase. There is an A phase and a B phase. They are 180 degrees out of phase!


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## cutlerhammer (Aug 16, 2011)

Majewski said:


> How do u know what was paid?
> How do u know its code? What type of room is it?


I think Majewski has been drinking too many brewskis.


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## Ty the electric guy (Feb 16, 2014)

Right off of the internet. Must be true


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

cutlerhammer said:


> It might be called "single phase," but it is actually two phase. There is an A phase and a B phase. They are 180 degrees out of phase!


So the Single phase 240V from the transformer is ... ????

If there are 2 phases in 120/240V service, then we have 6 phases in 3 phase service ?  

It's 2 legs 180˚ apart. Commonly referred to as split phase.
I think you owe Maj an apology !


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## Bringerofcurrents (Dec 19, 2015)

Majewski said:


> how, its single phase? got a magic wand up your booty?


Split phase....single phase..I think we all know what he's talking about. Unless you don't!


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Bringerofcurrents said:


> Split phase....single phase..I think we all know what he's talking about. Unless you don't!


so you just assume? maybe you dont know lol


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

cutlerhammer said:


> It might be called "single phase," but it is actually two phase. There is an A phase and a B phase. They are 180 degrees out of phase!


nope it isnt.


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## Slay301 (Apr 23, 2018)

cutlerhammer said:


> It might be called "single phase," but it is actually two phase. There is an A phase and a B phase. They are 180 degrees out of phase!


The two legs of a single phase 240vac circuit, like the one found in most houses, are NOT out of phase with each other. They are in fact exactly IN phase with each other, meaning that there is only ONE phase. If the two legs were 180deg OUT of phase (technically two phases), measuring the voltage between the two legs would show 0v. This occurs because as the AC waveform cycles, the two voltages would be exactly opposing at all times (Leg 1 +120v, Leg 2 -120v), making the resultant voltage 0. However, because they are phased Exactly the same, measuring the voltage shows double the voltage(Leg 1 +120v, Leg 2 +120v), as the two voltages are added together. 

Three phase legs are 120deg out of phase, phase to phase. Normally adding three legs together would add all the voltage together (360vac). However, the phase differential causes some of the voltage to be lost to some of the voltage being cancelled by the other legs drawing it back. The line to line voltage is calculated by multiplying the line to ground voltage by the square root of three. Eg. 120 x sqrt(3) = 207.84, or 208vac 3ph.


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

Slay301 said:


> The two legs of a single phase 240vac circuit, like the one found in most houses, are NOT out of phase with each other. They are in fact exactly IN phase with each other, meaning that there is only ONE phase. If the two legs were 180deg OUT of phase (technically two phases), measuring the voltage between the two legs would show 0v. This occurs because as the AC waveform cycles, the two voltages would be exactly opposing at all times (Leg 1 +120v, Leg 2 -120v), making the resultant voltage 0. However, because they are phased Exactly the same, measuring the voltage shows double the voltage(Leg 1 +120v, Leg 2 +120v), as the two voltages are added together.
> 
> Three phase legs are 120deg out of phase, phase to phase. Normally adding three legs together would add all the voltage together (360vac). However, the phase differential causes some of the voltage to be lost to some of the voltage being cancelled by the other legs drawing it back. The line to line voltage is calculated by multiplying the line to ground voltage by the square root of three. Eg. 120 x sqrt(3) = 207.84, or 208vac 3ph.


Good thing my Fluke T-5 gets it.


----------



## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

yankeejoe1141 said:


> Good thing my Fluke T-5 gets it.


Technically single phase


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

Majewski said:


> Technically single phase


I heard there's a fluke from Amazon floating around that says we're dealing with four phases.


----------



## Slay301 (Apr 23, 2018)

yankeejoe1141 said:


> I heard there's a fluke from Amazon floating around that says we're dealing with four phases.


Fake news lol


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## Slay301 (Apr 23, 2018)

Btw thread hijack of the year here good job guys


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

Slay301 said:


> Btw thread hijack of the year here good job guys


Weren't you the one that started the hijack? lol!


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## Slay301 (Apr 23, 2018)

yankeejoe1141 said:


> Weren't you the one that started the hijack? lol!


No I tried to help majewski started the single phase ****


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

Slay301 said:


> No I tried to help majewski started the single phase ****


Oh, I thought I heard you yell Ali Akbar!!


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

All this scientific talk about phases being 120 degrees apart is way beyond my lower electrical residential scope....I mean are these degrees celsius or fahrenheit? 

According to my POCO book I can only pick between single or three phase services so....


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## Slay301 (Apr 23, 2018)

yankeejoe1141 said:


> All this scientific talk about phases being 120 degrees apart is way beyond my lower electrical residential scope....I mean are these degrees celsius or fahrenheit?
> 
> According to my POCO book I can only pick between single or three phase services so....


Are you being serious you don’t know why it’s 120 degrees out for real ???


----------



## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

Slay301 said:


> Are you being serious you don’t know why it’s 120 degrees out for real ???


Nope, I get it, 42 people said it's single phase divided by 42 times one person said it's single phase is...let me do the math...looks like I'm left with just one phase?

Double check my math please, total lighthearted joke.


----------



## Slay301 (Apr 23, 2018)

yankeejoe1141 said:


> Nope, I get it, 42 people said it's single phase divided by 42 times one person said it's single phase is...let me do the math...looks like I'm left with just one phase?
> 
> Double check my math please, total lighthearted joke.


Lol I thought so I don’t know sometimes though


----------



## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

Slay301 said:


> The two legs of a single phase 240vac circuit, like the one found in most houses, are NOT out of phase with each other. They are in fact exactly IN phase with each other, meaning that there is only ONE phase. If the two legs were 180deg OUT of phase (technically two phases), measuring the voltage between the two legs would show 0v. This occurs because as the AC waveform cycles, the two voltages would be exactly opposing at all times (Leg 1 +120v, Leg 2 -120v), making the resultant voltage 0. However, because they are phased Exactly the same, measuring the voltage shows double the voltage(Leg 1 +120v, Leg 2 +120v), as the two voltages are added together.
> 
> Three phase legs are 120deg out of phase, phase to phase. Normally adding three legs together would add all the voltage together (360vac). However, the phase differential causes some of the voltage to be lost to some of the voltage being cancelled by the other legs drawing it back. The line to line voltage is calculated by multiplying the line to ground voltage by the square root of three. Eg. 120 x sqrt(3) = 207.84, or 208vac 3ph.


That sounds good ....

BUT, if you look at both leg A and leg B on a scope, they are 180˚ apart from each other.
If they weren't, then how could the kitchen split receptacle pop the breaker when the homeowner doesn't cut the tab 😂


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

hahahahahahahahahahahahahhaa


----------



## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

I was starting to think my trolling skills were gone 😂


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## Slay301 (Apr 23, 2018)

emtnut said:


> That sounds good ....
> 
> BUT, if you look at both leg A and leg B on a scope, they are 180˚ apart from each other.
> If they weren't, then how could the kitchen split receptacle pop the breaker when the homeowner doesn't cut the tab 😂



In this case, the 180 degree shift is nothing magical. It is simply polarity. It means that the ends of the coil are equal and opposite at any instant of time. In this exact same sense, the poles of a battery are "180 degrees" opposite. North and south are "180 degrees" opposite. In other words, somebody used the term 180, and it happens to have the same phrasing as the 120 degree shift used in 3-phase terminology, except it really doesn't mean a phase difference any more than north or south are out of phase.

The device that creates it is the transformer. At any instant of time, current is flowing in one direction, and therefore the magnetic lines of flux have a specific polarity, driving a current in the secondary a certain direction, creating a positive potential on one side and negative on the other. In the next part of the cycle, the polarity changes, so negative becomes positive and positive becomes negative.

In other words, at any instant, one wire is positive and one wire is negative, thus the idea that they are "180 degrees out of phase".


----------



## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Slay301 said:


> They are not 180 degrees apart you are confusing negative and positive


STOP FIGHTING! CANT WE ALL JUST GET ALONG!?


----------



## Slay301 (Apr 23, 2018)

Majewski said:


> STOP FIGHTING! CANT WE ALL JUST GET ALONG!?


No we are Electricians we will never get along it’s not our nature


----------



## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Slay301 said:


> No we are Electricians we will never get along it’s not our nature


billys parents got a divorce, are you getting a divorce? i wanna live with you.


----------



## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

Slay301 said:


> In this case, the 180 degree shift is nothing magical. It is simply polarity. It means that the ends of the coil are equal and opposite at any instant of time. In this exact same sense, the poles of a battery are "180 degrees" opposite. North and south are "180 degrees" opposite. In other words, somebody used the term 180, and it happens to have the same phrasing as the 120 degree shift used in 3-phase terminology, except it really doesn't mean a phase difference any more than north or south are out of phase.
> 
> The device that creates it is the transformer. At any instant of time, current is flowing in one direction, and therefore the magnetic lines of flux have a specific polarity, driving a current in the secondary a certain direction, creating a positive potential on one side and negative on the other. In the next part of the cycle, the polarity changes, so negative becomes positive and positive becomes negative.
> 
> In other words, at any instant, one wire is positive and one wire is negative, thus the idea that they are "180 degrees out of phase".


I disagree.
Vectors are vectors.
Look between 2 phases from a 3 phase system. 120V across each coil, but one is at 120˚ therefore the vector is 208V
In split phase, the angle of the 2 legs is 180˚, therefore the vector sum is 240V

The polarity of the 2 coils in 3 phase is 'lined' up the same as the 2 legs in split phase ... they both add up.

So, although 120/240 is single phase, the 2 legs being split in the middle, are out of phase with each other.


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

Majewski said:


> billys parents got a divorce, are you getting a divorce? i wanna live with you.


Fine, I put all your stuff out on the front lawn ... and it's snowing out, so ya may wanna hurry


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

emtnut said:


> Fine, I put all your stuff out on the front lawn ... and it's snowing out, so ya may wanna hurry


Its fine, theres no snow in maui


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

Who’s Vector? Did I miss his introduction in the new member section?


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

yankeejoe1141 said:


> Who’s Vector? Did I miss his introduction in the new member section?


Whats your victor, vector?


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

yankeejoe1141 said:


> Who’s Vector? Did I miss his introduction in the new member section?


Hannibal Vector ... google him


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

emtnut said:


> Hannibal Vector ... google him


Dont make me do things, please i beg you


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

Majewski said:


> Dont make me do things, please i beg you


Don't tell me what to do


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

emtnut said:


> Don't tell me what to do


Oh u can tell me but just dont MAKE me do things


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

emtnut said:


> Hannibal Vector ... google him


I just did…that mask doesn’t do him any justice, hard to recognize if I’ve seen him hanging around ET at all.


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

yankeejoe1141 said:


> I just did…that mask doesn’t do him any justice, hard to recognize if I’ve seen him hanging around ET at all.


I think it's one of Lawnguys burner accounts


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

emtnut said:


> I think it's one of Lawnguys burner accounts


Oh yeah  that’s where I recognized that crazy guy from!!


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

emtnut said:


> I think it's one of Lawnguys burner accounts


Now it makes sense when he says he “killfiled” people…. 1-800-TIP-LINE !!


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## Slay301 (Apr 23, 2018)

emtnut said:


> I disagree.
> Vectors are vectors.
> Look between 2 phases from a 3 phase system. 120V across each coil, but one is at 120˚ therefore the vector is 208V
> In split phase, the angle of the 2 legs is 180˚, therefore the vector sum is 240V
> ...


In single phase the zero points are the same with one leg negative and the other positive so the vector cancels in 3 phase the phase shift causes zero points 120 degrees out so that’s why it’s 208


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

Slay301 said:


> In single phase the zero points are the same with one leg negative and the other positive so the vector cancels


It doesn't cancel, they're additive. It's still a vector, but you don't need to do the COS crap to get the result ... just add 'em together



> in 3 phase the phase shift causes zero points 120 degrees out so that’s why it’s 208


That's what I said


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

emtnut said:


> It doesn't cancel, they're additive. It's still a vector, but you don't need to do the COS crap to get the result ... just add 'em together
> 
> 
> That's what I said


Thats what she said


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## MikeWhitfield (Aug 1, 2011)

One of the most confused I've ever been in school was when a professor tried to explain to me the difference between single phase split into two legs (split phase single phase) and actual two phase power, which seemed like someone said "Hey, I'd like to double the complexity for no real benefit while also making motors beat themselves into scrap." But there are some existing two phase generation sites and service areas. (My theory is that some people just refuse to admit they've done something stupid.)


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