# Union as a % of industry



## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

I noticed that almost all the "Union made" stickers have disappeared from lighting fixtures, panels, enclosures and fittings . I remember when cheap builders fixtures even bore the union made sticker.


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

Shockdoc said:


> I noticed that almost all the "Union made" stickers have disappeared from lighting fixtures, panels, enclosures and fittings . I remember when cheap builders fixtures even bore the union made sticker.


That's sad.


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## MollyHatchet29 (Jan 24, 2012)

From what I was told from a union rep here is 20% in our area. However, that includes commercial and industrial only; the Richmond local doesn't do residential. Not exactly sure why.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

MollyHatchet29 said:


> From what I was told from a union rep here is 20% in our area. However, that includes commercial and industrial only; the Richmond local doesn't do residential. Not exactly sure why.


 
Richmond? That seems high.


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## MollyHatchet29 (Jan 24, 2012)

brian john said:


> Richmond? That seems high.


Probably was. There wasn't any hard evidence to back it up, but they wouldn't lie to apprentices, right?


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

MollyHatchet29 said:


> Probably was. There wasn't any hard evidence to back it up, but they wouldn't lie to apprentices, right?


 No way it's 20 percent


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

i wonder how many here will get the symbiant nature involved......~CS~


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

...just what everyone wants, less pay, less benefits, more responsibility, more work load.:blink: If they ever totally get rid of the unions, can you imagine what you will be working for?


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

the Chinese?

~CS~


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## MollyHatchet29 (Jan 24, 2012)

mcclary's electrical said:


> No way it's 20 percent


What would you guys assume it is?


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

Hey dood do this. Get your phone book out and look at all the contractors. Ask around to your guys at work, they'll know who is merit and who is organized. Go from there.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

chicken steve said:


> the Chinese?
> 
> ~CS~


We are already entering the Chinese level of living. less pay, more work, more expenses. It won't be long until everything needed will be priced at a LUXURY and not a necessity.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Union density is concentrated to certain area's.
In Philadelphia, commercial, retail, industrial, institutional, condo, high end residential type work is close to 90%. The IO said we're 80% market share in the city limits. Who am I to argue percentage points?????

In our immediate suburbs (which lies in Philly's jurisdiction) were probably like 50%-75% depending on which of the suburban areas your addressing. The next level suburban area's drop off considerably. 

Capital Grill, Walmart, Toll Brothers, Barnes & Nobles, Target, all build union here. I'm not aware of a whole lot of other places that those companies build union.

BUT I recognize the fact that Places like Philadelphia, Portland Oregon, etc are not the norm.

The IBEW was gaining members up until about 2007-2008. 

There's a lot of work to do to regain market share. And honestly, I really think that it's close to impossible in states with RTW laws.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

slickvic277 said:


> Union density is concentrated to certain area's.
> In Philadelphia, commercial, retail, industrial, institutional, condo, high end residential type work is close to 90%. The IO said we're 80% market share in the city limits. Who am I to argue percentage points?????
> 
> In our immediate suburbs (which lies in Philly's jurisdiction) were probably like 50%-75% depending on which of the suburban areas your addressing. The next level suburban area's drop off considerably.
> ...



When I was open shop the contractors I worked for dominated in far Montgomery & Bucks County Pennsylvania. And South Jersey too.
Honestly, before I was union I didn't know that the IBEW existed in these places. And that's a problem.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Shockdoc said:


> We are already entering the Chinese level of living. less pay, more work, more expenses. It won't be long until everything needed will be priced at a LUXURY and not a necessity.


do rickshaws come with ladder racks?

~CS~


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

chicken steve said:


> do rickshaws come with ladder racks?
> 
> ~CS~


No but don't knock those rickshaws. They are a full fledged business around here


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

_moi?_ heaven forefend 'bama....:icon_wink:~CS~


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Chris1971 said:


> What percentage of the US electrical industry work force is IBEW? I strictly talking electricians in construction. Can anyone give me any figures?


http://www.bls.gov/news.release/union2.nr0.htm



  Union Members Technical Note 
  Table 1. Union affiliation of employed wage and salary workers by selected characteristics 
  Table 2. Median weekly earnings of full-time wage and salary workers by union affiliation and selected characteristics 
  Table 3. Union affiliation of employed wage and salary workers by occupation and industry 
  Table 4. Median weekly earnings of full-time wage and salary workers by union affiliation, occupation, and industry 
  Table 5. Union affiliation of employed wage and salary workers by state 
  Access to historical data for the tables of the Union Membership News Release 
  HTML version of the entire news release


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## butcher733 (Aug 4, 2012)

Does anyone feel that there is a strong correlation between the widening gap between the rich and poor and the loss of union strength? The unions gave us almost every worthy labor law on the books and now everyone takes them for granted. The only thing that employers have control over now is the wage and benefits of employees, wages and union strength will continue to decline to a point that causes the current trade unions to die. This will happen. Then some day in the distant future someone will say " we need to do something about our wages" and unions will experience a resurgence. Wondering what the union market share is does nothing but give you a benchmark for decline, when the union lost residential it was over. I've been and still am a union tradesman for 13 yrs, facts is facts.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

butcher733 said:


> Does anyone feel that there is a strong correlation between the widening gap between the rich and poor and the loss of union strength? The unions gave us almost every worthy labor law on the books and now everyone takes them for granted. The only thing that employers have control over now is the wage and benefits of employees, wages and union strength will continue to decline to a point that causes the current trade unions to die. This will happen. Then some day in the distant future someone will say " we need to do something about our wages" and unions will experience a resurgence. Wondering what the union market share is does nothing but give you a benchmark for decline, when the union lost residential it was over. I've been and still am a union tradesman for 13 yrs, facts is facts.


And the union is as guilty as or almost as guilty as all the other parties involved in the decline.

And until the unions recognize and take proactive steps the decline will continue, but try to tell the union members they have to make changes and you are attacked as anti-union.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

360max said:


> ...just what everyone wants, less pay, less benefits, more responsibility, more work load.:blink: If they ever totally get rid of the unions, can you imagine what you will be working for?


I'd still be working for the same person (myself) making the same money!! There's no union in my area so what difference would it make to me? None! The closest union we had was at a manufacturing plant about 12 miles away from me and they pushed that out years ago.


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## niteshift (Nov 21, 2007)

Widing gap between rich and poor is more because the middle class has to pay for the poor, and give to the rich. 
Makes the gap bigger when there is less of the middle class to take from.


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

So basically no one other than harry304E provided any specifics.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Chris1971 said:


> So basically no one other than harry304E provided any specifics.


He nailed it. No need for more.


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## 87Electric (Apr 2, 2011)

In our immediate suburbs (which lies in Philly's jurisdiction) were probably like 50%-75% depending on which of the suburban areas your addressing. The next level suburban area's drop off considerably. 



May be true in 2008....But not today. Suburbs jobs are mostly non-union


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

I don't recall any union electrical contractors in NH. In Cali, it's a bit different. I can't give any real figures though since I am still waiting for the DIR to get off its ass and let me get licensed here.


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## jimmy21 (Mar 31, 2012)

What kills me is when people say things like "why would I go union" I already make close to scale....... Who do you think is responsible for your nice wage? Get rid of unions and you get rid of raises for the open shops


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

nolabama said:


> Hey dood do this. Get your phone book out and look at all the contractors. Ask around to your guys at work, they'll know who is merit and who is organized. Go from there.


Just go to www.ibew.org

You can find out a lot right there. Here in NYC, in Manhattan we have 90% of new construction market share. In the outer borough's it's much lower. However, PLA's and our leadership have begun to bring the outer borough's numbers back up. Slowly though...too slowly. My unorganized friends shop is an example Whereas two years ago, there were NO Local 3 shops bidding on low rise residential housing at all...now there are actually M Division shops bidding and winning some of this work The fact that the M Division is finally getting off it's ass and pursuing this work is huge! 

But the real reason is because we all run around with bats, giant rats, and pay off OSHA and the DoL... 

:thumbsup:

Seriously though, there has been an aggressive push to reclaim market share.

LOL

Steve from NYC


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## butcher733 (Aug 4, 2012)

702 in southern il controls 90% of commercial/industrial.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Hey, if we are all going to be working like Chinese, do we get any Chinese chicks as part of the deal? Just asking.......


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

butcher733 said:


> Does anyone feel that there is a strong correlation between the widening gap between the rich and poor and the loss of union strength? .


undeniable..........









~CS~


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

icefalkon said:


> Just go to www.ibew.org
> 
> You can find out a lot right there. Here in NYC, in Manhattan we have 90% of new construction market share. In the outer borough's it's much lower. However, PLA's and our leadership have begun to bring the outer borough's numbers back up. Slowly though...too slowly. My unorganized friends shop is an example Whereas two years ago, there were NO Local 3 shops bidding on low rise residential housing at all...now there are actually M Division shops bidding and winning some of this work The fact that the M Division is finally getting off it's ass and pursuing this work is huge!
> 
> ...


Do the M guys make less on those projects?


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## JDJ (Aug 9, 2011)

Last numbers I heard in Richmond put us between 12 and 15%. As for the residential Molly. Some contractors do residential service work. New construction not so much. Even with CE/CW program they don't seem to feel they can be competitive. Plus we have a lot of contractors who have a niche they are comfortable in and they tend not to move outside the niche.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

Chicken, are you saying if we don't belong to the union we're low class??? Used to have arguments with a co-worker. He thought the big companies were nasty and should pay more taxes. First of all, if they're so nasty, why do we care when they go overseas? Secondly, if they hire a 1000 people, what do those people do? Pay taxes, right? A good example is one of our local manufacturing plants. It was a good place to work as it was the only union plant in the area. Even the dead wood could work there and unless they did something drastic, not get fired. They probably payed the highest wages of any plant in the area. What did the workers do? They went on strike for more money etc. When it was said and done, about half of them lost their jobs as there were a lot of people glad to have a job like that. Now they have no job and no union! Was it a good idea to go on strike? I think not. Not in today's economy.


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

Loose Neutral said:


> Do the M guys make less on those projects?


Yes, the M Divisions rates are 1/3 lower than the A Division on average. 

Steve from NYC


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## sbuck22 (Jun 14, 2012)

wendon said:


> I'd still be working for the same person (myself) making the same money!! There's no union in my area so what difference would it make to me? None! The closest union we had was at a manufacturing plant about 12 miles away from me and they pushed that out years ago.


Where do you live in Wisconsin? The IBEW is represented all over Wisconsin. But is weak in the north western part of the state.


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

I love how active the unorganized guys are in the union thread. This must be the official trolling grounds! 

As for working for yourself and none of these issues bother or affect you...sure they don't. 

Do you not see that as the unions in general fall, YOU will also be affected down the road. What comes around goes around...everything happens full circle. I do see organized labor being in trouble. The actions of a few have affected many. But just as they encounter trouble, eventually, long after I'm gone, they'll come back again. 

If you run an outfit with 5 employees and do piecework or small residential/commercial work, it may take some time to get to you, but I guarantee you, it will. 

And if you work for a large non union electrical contractor...you have the same problems/issues we have. Because it's not just about "union workers" or "union benefits"...it's about ALL benefits. If you're doing large work, then your owners already KNOW the problems that come with working for Bechtel, SKANSKA, Lend Lease...etc. Don't think for a SECOND that they'll be happy just taking away our benefits...or fringe benefits. Just think...once they're done with us...

They're going to be coming for you. In some cases...they already have...

What's the old saying...we either stand together and fight, or stand apart and get ran over...I'd rather fight and maintain my way of life and paycheck/benefit package. 

Either way, there's enough work to get me through until Retirement in 14yrs! 

Steve from NYC


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## electricalwiz (Mar 12, 2011)

I do not think Public unions should be allowed to exist because they can hold the taxpaer hostage.
As far as private unions go (like Local 98, 269) I do not have a problem with them except how they conduct business. I did a job in Philly and the local 98 BA showed up wanting me to hire a couple of journeymen I told him it was not in the budget and the customer or the GC was not willing to pay for it. The next day my job got robbed of all the wire and ladders on site. I have been awarded jobs and then had them taken away because the owner/GC feared what the union would do. In my opinion you put a job out for bid, if you lose go home and bid the next one, not cause trouble for the guy who got the job


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

I love the idea of paying two guys $35 hr, vs paying one Union guy for $70/hr.

It creates more jobs, and more opportunities for everyone.

Funny how the union guys complain about corporate CEO's, yet in the same breath, find nothing wrong with holding american tax payers and businesses hostage for more money for themselves.


IMO


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

icefalkon said:


> I love how active the unorganized guys are in the union thread. This must be the official trolling grounds
> 
> They're going to be coming for you. In some cases...they already have...
> 
> Steve from NYC


Explain a few things. Who is they? My customers? How are "they" coming after me? If I do quality work, and my customers are satisfied with the price, why are "they" going to "come after me"?? Explain how they already have. Always nice to see how you guys consider us poor, uneducated, ignorant, out-of-touch independents to be below yourselves!! Do you guys ever "troll" in other areas other than the union thread?


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

electricalwiz said:


> I do not think Public unions should be allowed to exist because they can hold the taxpaer hostage.


Hey, we pay our dues and can't hold anyone hostage. Some of them evil public union are powerless.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

wendon said:


> Explain a few things. Who is they? My customers? How are "they" coming after me? If I do quality work, and my customers are satisfied with the price, why are "they" going to "come after me"?? Explain how they already have. Always nice to see how you guys consider us poor, uneducated, ignorant, out-of-touch independents to be below yourselves!! Do you guys ever "troll" in other areas other than the union thread?


Damn good question......Who Are They ? You know, "they say"," they are". A family member told me THEY say a certain habit of mine is bad for my health. Are They the People? Or they just some idiot somewhere with too much to talk about?


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

LOL is that the best you guys can come up with...really?

We post in the union thread...well...because we're union. 

And you know what...enough crying foul already...

Not one person here called you poor, uneducated, ignorant, out-of-touch independents that are below us. Give it a break already. Christ, why don't you stop whining like you need the ACLU already. If you don't like the topics posted here, it's simple. Don't post. 

Because it certainly seems like the non union element has been more aggressive with making the point that they ARE just as good as union electricians, that they work harder, faster, and basically are the way to go. 

When will YOU realize that we simply don't give a sh*t how hard, fast, or DEEP you go? You don't hold my beliefs, I don't share yours. I've already let it go. 

But interestingly...it seems to be nature to self justify yourselves in THIS thread. I find that funny. Every chance you guys get, you try to throw a bomb out there. But the thing is...not one of my Brothers here, really gives a f*ck. At the end of the day...for the most part...we're happy with the Brotherhood. Yes there's problems with it, hell there's problems with the DMV too. Can't change that either. 

However, I haven't read ONE depreciating comment fired YOUR way anywhere near the crap you've thrown THIS way. I don't need to debate how good or bad you have it. 

*I care about how good the Apprentices I teach are, I care how informed the Instructors I teach out at NTI are, and I care about MY union.* 

I don't have time to care about this guys client list vs that guys poor me I got insulted 25 f*cking years ago by a union knee breaker. Get over it. This is construction. All I'm seeing is a bunch of guys who actually DO give a sh*t about their skill level...doing nothing but crying over who got the better deal in life. Union or Non Union. 

No one is slashing non union tires anymore, no one is breaking knees anymore. Hell i'll bet there aren't many ON this forum who REALLY remember that sh*t. I do, I was a kid then, but I do. No one is going out of their way to give you HALF the crap you guys hand out. 

And yet we take it with a grain of salt. You call us arrogant...I call you whiners, You call us prejudiced, I call you the same, You call us slow workers, I call you speed demons worried that your lack of production will cost you your employment for which you have no recourse but to solicit yourselves like a whore. I can do this until the cows come home.

My point is this...if the union thread offends you that much children....

Don't read it.

Thanks. 

Coffee break over. 



LOL

Steve from NYC


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## electricalwiz (Mar 12, 2011)

Wirenuting said:


> Hey, we pay our dues and can't hold anyone hostage. Some of them evil public union are powerless.


I did not say public unions dont pay dues, I just dont think public unions should be allowed.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Our public union police officers make $75 an hour for traffic patrol.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

Shockdoc said:


> Our public union police officers make $75 an hour for traffic patrol.


I'm in the wrong line of work. 
Being paid $75 an hour to drink coffee & eat donuts?


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

icefalkon said:


> Can't change that either.


And that is why you'll be a nobody forever.

You're scared of failure.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Wirenuting said:


> I'm in the wrong line of work.
> Being paid $75 an hour to drink coffee & eat donuts?


We have the highest paid( and most lazy) police departments in the USA here on LI.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

electricalwiz said:


> I did not say public unions dont pay dues, I just dont think public unions should be allowed.


Some public union are necessary to help slow the tramping of a persons rights by management. 
It can be a surprise to some to see what rights you loose when you work the federal sector. 

We are rarely bound by the laws we create.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

Shockdoc said:


> We have the highest paid( and most lazy) police departments in the USA here on LI.


Oh LI? 
That's to close to my family in NJ, 
I'll stick with what I'm doing.


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

Wirenuting said:


> Some public union are necessary to help slow the tramping of a persons rights by management.
> It can be a surprise to some to see what rights you loose when you work the federal sector.
> 
> We are rarely bound by the laws we create.


You have the right to find employment elsewhere, if you don't like the company rules or conditions. You understand employees have a right to work wherever they want to, and whenever they want to?


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

Dnkldorf said:


> You have the right to find employment elsewhere, if you don't like the company rules or conditions. You understand employees have a right to work wherever they want to, and whenever they want to?


Of course I have the right to look someplace else. 
But why should I? I don't work for a company, I work for you. 
Don't you want the most bang for your buck?


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## electricalwiz (Mar 12, 2011)

Wirenuting said:


> Some public union are necessary to help slow the tramping of a persons rights by management.
> It can be a surprise to some to see what rights you loose when you work the federal sector.
> 
> We are rarely bound by the laws we create.


I disagree, I do not see why any public union is necessary. even FDR a huge pro union guy saw the dangers of public unions


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

electricalwiz said:


> I disagree, I do not see why any public union is necessary. even FDR a huge pro union guy saw the dangers of public unions


Is is fair to terminate an employee if they do as directed by their boss. The boss needs a scape goat to cover his butt for doing it wrong and only the fired employee knew it.
Is it fair to fire an employee because they were injured on the job with no fault of their own because management will not purchase proper PPE?

Someone has to have the ability to stand up for the employee and not worry about reprisal.

The rules of employment are vast here and are to be equal to everyone. But that not the case normally. The only smart people who always are truthful are those at the top. 
It is only the laborer or clerk typist that are at the very bottom.

We can't strike or demand a wage increase. We have very little say in what happens. But at least we do have something. 
I pay my dues and receive almost nothing in return. I have seen out membership go from 300 down to 10 and back up to 100. I ride it out and wait. 

Ya we can try to sue after the fact, but it rarely works.


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## electricalwiz (Mar 12, 2011)

Wirenuting said:


> Is is fair to terminate an employee if they do as directed by their boss. The boss needs a scape goat to cover his butt for doing it wrong and only the fired employee knew it.
> Is it fair to fire an employee because they were injured on the job with no fault of their own because management will not purchase proper PPE?
> 
> Someone has to have the ability to stand up for the employee and not worry about reprisal.
> ...


I understand what you are saying, but there two things that I would counter with, 1. how often does that happen ( I know lame but true) 2. like you said I would take them to court and let a jury of peers decide.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

electricalwiz said:


> I understand what you are saying, but there two things that I would counter with, 1. how often does that happen ( I know lame but true) 2. like you said I would take them to court and let a jury of peers decide.


It happens a often enough.
I just fought a 5 day no pay suspension for being the victim in a violence in the work place problem. 
First time in all these years I've even been in trouble. All because I stood up to someone who threatened both me and my wife. His boss did nothing to stop it. Even when I told him all about it over the course of a year. 
Retaliation for squealing on this guys drinkin boss is what happened. 
Now I don't agree or condone the drunk that comes in and sleeps all day. He should be given the chance to change and then see what happens. 

Can people fight in court? Yes they can only after independent arbitration after you have been terminated. 

Some people deserve to be canned. But not the honest hard working employee. 

BTW: a few years ago my old boss informed me that due to my honesty I will never be promoted again. I told them I would rather stay as I am and retire with out selling my soul just so some can lie, cheat and steal from the system.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

Could you bring it up to an honest legislator (lol) and see if a legislative inquiry could be made into the theft? Seems like that might be the best way to fix the completely screwed up system.


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## electricalwiz (Mar 12, 2011)

Wirenuting said:


> It happens a often enough.
> I just fought a 5 day no pay suspension for being the victim in a violence in the work place problem.
> First time in all these years I've even been in trouble. All because I stood up to someone who threatened both me and my wife. His boss did nothing to stop it. Even when I told him all about it over the course of a year.
> Retaliation for squealing on this guys drinkin boss is what happened.
> ...


Sorry to hear that
Where do you work?
I think if you ever show up to work drunk or high etc you should be fired asap no excetions


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

Going_Commando said:


> Could you bring it up to an honest legislator (lol) and see if a legislative inquiry could be made into the theft? Seems like that might be the best way to fix the completely screwed up system.


LoL,, who on the top is the most honest?
If you can tell me I promise to vote for him. 

The theft does get investigated. But rarely does anything happen. You need a witness who isn't afraid of retaliation. They are few and far between. 

You need to steal something big, like them army tanks at fort McCoy in Wisconsin. Then they really start to wonder.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

electricalwiz said:


> Sorry to hear that
> Where do you work?
> I think if you ever show up to work drunk or high etc you should be fired asap no excetions


You can ask for help only once. But it has to be before you get in trouble.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

icefalkon said:


> This must be the official trolling grounds!


Yes - so why feed the trolls. It makes no difference what you say, they will continue to lie about, berate and denigrate unions. No reasonable discussions to be found here.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Wirenuting said:


> I'm in the wrong line of work.
> Being paid $75 an hour to drink coffee & eat donuts?


I'm fairly sure they're _day old_ donuts WN

i don't believe we can _fathom_ trying to exist on day old donuts out in the midst of LI traffic.....










~CS~


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

chicken steve said:


> I'm fairly sure they're day old donuts WN
> 
> i don't believe we can fathom trying to exist on day old donuts out in the midst of LI traffic.....
> 
> ~CS~


Wouldn't that be an unfair labor practice?


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

icefalkon said:


> > I love how active the unorganized guys are in the union thread. This must be the official trolling grounds!
> 
> 
> and i usually envision most of the tenured union guys holding their heads in their hands reading the young union bucks in them Steve
> ...


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Wirenuting said:


> Wouldn't that be an unfair labor practice?


well yes, but i still would refrain from confronting my shop stewart with fresh jelly donut stains on my uniform.....:laughing:~CS~


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

eejack said:


> Yes - so why feed the trolls. It makes no difference what you say, they will continue to lie about, berate and denigrate unions. No reasonable discussions to be found here.


In lieu of posting something positive you post this. There is a lot of information laid out in here much of it negative, you have not posted anything positive on how to regain the market share the IBEW once enjoyed.

You could TRY to sway some members (some will never be on your side) but you ignore the chance.


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

Dnkldorf said:


> And that is why you'll be a nobody forever.
> 
> You're scared of failure.


LOL listen to this guy. 

Well, thankfully I'm not in a competition with you dnkldorf. You've got the sarcastic "nobody but jaded ass clown" routine down pat. A nobody? Well if that's your definition of someone someone successful, who cares about the industry, who is active in the community and within the organization. Then you're right. I'll be that definition of a "nobody" without ever feeling bad about it.

Scared of failure? LOL where the heck does that come from? Are you just trying to be a smart ass...in a wormy kind of way?

I will say this, you're a ballsy, rude, but ballsy.

Steve from NYC


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

brian john said:


> In lieu of posting something positive you post this. There is a lot of information laid out in here much of it negative, you have not posted anything positive on how to regain the market share the IBEW once enjoyed.
> 
> You could TRY to sway some members (some will never be on your side) but you ignore the chance.


Not all of us have ignored the chance Brian...I think some members here with longer post counts that I have are simply tired of the BS. It seems that being civil, promoting education, treating people honestly and with respect goes nowhere with some members. 

How to regain market share...cut the hourly wage, work the 40hr (in NYC we operate on a 35hr week, with OT starting after 7hrs daily), competitive use of the CW/CE Program, having a REAL Business Development Officer to make sure that contractors are AWARE of what projects are going to bid...not just the million plus dollar ones...

Just a few of the ideas that have been thrown around to try to regain market share...

Steve from NYC


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

brian john said:


> In lieu of posting something positive you post this. There is a lot of information laid out in here much of it negative, you have not posted anything positive on how to regain the market share the IBEW once enjoyed.
> 
> You could TRY to sway some members (some will never be on your side) but you ignore the chance.


Why bother?

*Every single union topic gets trolled* by union haters, union bashers and just generally contrary trolls.

Actually I held out hope on this topic as everyone was relatively positive and helpful until a certain poster talked about how unions are guilty for their own demise - kind of rang the dinner bell for the herd to start feeding at the trough.

And of course it is my fault it is that way - that is what you are thinking - because I am not trying hard enough. Heck, I already know what part of this post you are going to copypasta and comment on.

It is open season to trolling in this part of the forum, that much is obvious. I'll do my swaying out in the general forums where it is more civil.

Enjoy.:thumbsup:


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

chicken steve said:


> icefalkon said:
> 
> 
> > and i usually envision most of the tenured union guys holding their heads in their hands_* reading the young union bucks*_ in them Steve
> ...


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

eejack said:


> Yes - so why feed the trolls. It makes no difference what you say, they will continue to lie about, berate and denigrate unions. No reasonable discussions to be found here.


Obviously Wirenut, you must be lying about your experience. I would like to see proof that what has been posted about the trouble people have had trying to deal with the unions is the untruth. Don't accuse everyone of lying until you can prove different!! Apparently though, the only ones that should have open minds are us poor ignorant bottom feeders!:notworthy::notworthy:


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

Dnkldorf said:


> I love the idea of paying two guys $35 hr, vs paying one Union guy for $70/hr.


$70 an hour? Where is that? I'm moving there.


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

wendon said:


> Obviously Wirenut, you must be lying about your experience. I would like to see proof that what has been posted about the trouble people have had trying to deal with the unions is the untruth. Don't accuse everyone of lying until you can prove different!! *Apparently though, the only ones that should have open minds are us poor ignorant bottom feeders!:notworthy::notworthy*:


LOL there we go again...self depreciation for effect. You know, if you keep saying that over and over again...

It...

Just...

Might...

Stick....

Steve from NYC


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

big2bird said:


> $70 an hour? Where is that? I'm moving there.


Certainly not here in NYC! Where is this magical place??


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

big2bird said:


> $70 an hour? Where is that? I'm moving there.


I'm pulling $64 and change second shift foreman rate in NJ.

But normal rates - if you count my package ( and I see you looking at my impressive package ) runs around $70 per hour.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

icefalkon said:


> LOL there we go again...self depreciation for effect. You know, if you keep saying that over and over again...
> 
> It...
> 
> ...


:laughing::laughing: Well Ice since it seems you've got the time, why don't you disprove this whole foolish notion with proof that what they're saying is nothing but a bunch of lies? Maybe some sort of a Snopes thing!!!:thumbup1: Oh, and lest I forget and be disrespectful :notworthy:


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

wendon said:


> :laughing::laughing: Well Ice since it seems you've got the time, why don't you disprove this whole foolish notion with proof that what they're saying is nothing but a bunch of lies? Maybe some sort of a Snopes thing!!!:thumbup1: Oh, and lest I forget and be disrespectful :notworthy:


Prove you are not Cletis.

Oh, yeah...need an emoticon to show this is all good natured.:laughing:


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

wendon said:


> :laughing::laughing: Well Ice since it seems you've got the time, why don't you disprove this whole foolish notion with proof that what they're saying is nothing but a bunch of lies? Maybe some sort of a Snopes thing!!!:thumbup1: Oh, and lest I forget and be disrespectful :notworthy:


Ha, you're joking right? I've been extremely respectful here, and even good nature'd towards everyone who treated me with respect. Isn't that what it's about...or is it more common here to see who gets the first shot in? 

Again, there's zero point putting any manner of facts before eyes that refuse to see. So again, why bother?

This narcissistic game will go on without my input. 

Steve from NYC


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

eejack said:


> Prove you are not Cletis.
> 
> Oh, yeah...need an emoticon to show this is all good natured.:laughing:


:laughing::laughing: Leave poor old abused Master Hacker Clete out of this!!


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

icefalkon said:


> Not all of us have ignored the chance Brian...I think some members here with longer post counts that I have are simply tired of the BS. It seems that being civil, promoting education, treating people honestly and with respect goes nowhere with some members.
> 
> How to regain market share...cut the hourly wage, work the 40hr (in NYC we operate on a 35hr week, with OT starting after 7hrs daily), competitive use of the CW/CE Program, having a REAL Business Development Officer to make sure that contractors are AWARE of what projects are going to bid...not just the million plus dollar ones...
> 
> ...


 I have asked and asked, members for a plan, my ideas as you can see are met with disdain. So unless unions wake up and smell the change there will not be any hope.

NYC is not the problem, I worked in NYC and saw the lock, hiring two local men to sit on buckets while I worked. When I tried to explain to them what I was doing (trying to tech them) I was told they did not give a f*ck, and if I singed a T&M ticket for 8 hours each, they quit slowing me down and leave. 

The real issues are the smaller markets, I feel some locals only care about the status quo, and unless a man organizes his shop in their will be little growth.

We need to be a kinder gentler union treating open shop men as brothers not the enemy get them in locals.
Quit being lock step with the Dems they ignore unions at best, because they have the cash in hand NO QUESTIONS. Spread the cash around.


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## 19kilosparky984 (Sep 14, 2011)

eejack said:


> Yes - so why feed the trolls. It makes no difference what you say, they will continue to lie about, berate and denigrate unions. No reasonable discussions to be found here.


And you are exactly what you just posted

Actually your worse.


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## 19kilosparky984 (Sep 14, 2011)

eejack said:


> Prove you are not Cletis.
> 
> Oh, yeah...need an emoticon to show this is all good natured.:laughing:


Prove your not lawn guy land sparky


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

icefalkon said:


> chicken steve said:
> 
> 
> > I have never, nor do I plan to inflate a rat anywhere CS. I personally don't think its effective. Those in the power structure do however and that is above my pay grade to make those decisions.
> ...


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## 19kilosparky984 (Sep 14, 2011)

eejack said:


> Why bother?
> 
> *Every single union topic gets trolled* by union haters, union bashers and just generally contrary trolls.
> 
> ...


Go back to friends and family where you belong.

Crying about trolling yet you troll the most.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

19kilosparky984 said:


> And you are exactly what you just posted
> 
> Actually your worse.


you *are* worse, not my worse. sheesh.:thumbsup:


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

19kilosparky984 said:


> Prove your not lawn guy land sparky


lol.

no.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

prove post #84 wrong fellas....~CS~


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

chicken steve said:


> now if you agree with me so far here, it would seem to me that every single union member i've seen post here claims they DO NOT agree with the union tactic of antagonization via the inflatable rat
> 
> ~CS~


Incorrect Steve.

I am all for the rat. I have carried the rat out to sites, blown it up and stood beside it. Marched around it all day, deflated it and stored it.

The rat works.

I believe when proper applied, the leverage of shame is powerful.

The rat is not the first tool in the box. Conversation is. But it is a tool and it is effective.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

chicken steve said:


> prove post #84 wrong fellas....~CS~


No, not wrong. All of the factual schtuff you mentioned is correct. The bits about how things work, the voting, sending things up and down the chain - all spot on.

The opinion on our tactics - that is an opinion of yours not based on observation outside of a handful of posters on this forum. Union guys love the rat. Seriously. 

Heck, in nyc a local dj announces rat sightings every day. Everyone loves the rat. Well except the schmucks who get the rat sitting in front of their site.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

_such cheek!_

you do realize your advocating your own demise here eejack?

~CS~


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

eejack said:


> I believe when proper applied, the leverage of shame is powerful.
> 
> .


 Why should someone be "shamed" because they didn't hire union? Maybe they would rather hire people who do not resort to obsurd tactics.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Why should someone be "shamed" because they didn't hire union? Maybe they would rather hire people who do not resort to obsurd tactics.


And maybe they want to pay their employees as little as possible, hold their jobs over their head so they have to work in fear, provide them with no benefits, maybe using cut rate materials and tools, lack safety equipment, hire illegal aliens and untrained workers.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Victims of their own volition always amaze me .....~CS~


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## electricalwiz (Mar 12, 2011)

eejack said:


> No, not wrong. All of the factual schtuff you mentioned is correct. The bits about how things work, the voting, sending things up and down the chain - all spot on.
> 
> The opinion on our tactics - that is an opinion of yours not based on observation outside of a handful of posters on this forum. Union guys love the rat. Seriously.
> 
> Heck, in nyc a local dj announces rat sightings every day. Everyone loves the rat. Well except the schmucks who get the rat sitting in front of their site.


That is where I think the union crosses the line, you are relying on fear and intimidation do get the work. I would think you would better yourselves by try selling to the customer and EC why you think you are a better product


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

I think the Rat has become little more then a decoration to the public. It's something to laugh at as a novelty. 
Years ago the general public was working class and leaned towards union. Seeing the rat would bring the news papers and inspectors for a closer look. 
Hearing that a DJ is pointing at one for the morning show makes it seem little more then a sideshow. 
Stop a few random people on the street and take a poll. Show them a picture of the rat and ask what it symbolizes to them.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

eejack said:


> And maybe they want to pay their employees as little as possible, hold their jobs over their head so they have to work in fear, provide them with no benefits, maybe using cut rate materials and tools, lack safety equipment, hire illegal aliens and untrained workers.


all seperate issues that are not the sole penchant of non union workers, nor mitigated by your rat eejack 

~CS~


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

electricalwiz said:


> That is where I think the union crosses the line, you are relying on fear and intimidation do get the work. I would think you would better yourselves by try selling to the customer and EC why you think you are a better product


it's human nature to pull one's self up, by pulling another down Wiz

but it's not the high road, and the examples of it's efficacy are abundantly available

~CS~


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

brian john said:


> I have asked and asked, members for a plan, my ideas as you can see are met with disdain. So unless unions wake up and smell the change there will not be any hope.
> 
> 
> The real issues are the smaller markets, I feel some locals only care about the status quo, and unless a man organizes his shop in their will be little growth.
> ...


I completely understand these comments.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

eejack said:


> Incorrect Steve.
> 
> I am all for the rat. I have carried the rat out to sites, blown it up and stood beside it. Marched around it all day, deflated it and stored it.
> 
> ...


Could you post a picture of you standing with your arm around your inflatable pet rat? That I would like to see!!:thumbup: Do they actually pay you to do the rat thing or is it something you do on your own time?


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

wendon said:


> Could you post a picture of you standing with your arm around your inflatable pet rat? That I would like to see!!:thumbup: Do they actually pay you to do the rat thing or is it something you do on your own time?


No pics of me exist. Sorry.

Own time - in my local you only do picket duty when you are unemployed.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

brian john said:


> I have asked and asked, members for a plan, my ideas as you can see are met with disdain. So unless unions wake up and smell the change there will not be any hope.


Your idea is basically cut our rates and give the contractor more latitude to do things.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

electricalwiz said:


> That is where I think the union crosses the line, you are relying on fear and intimidation do get the work. I would think you would better yourselves by try selling to the customer and EC why you think you are a better product


#troll food alert#

No, for the most part we get the work we get because we are best able to do it.

We do try to remind folks of that when contractors who are not truly capable or who are abusive to their workers and customers try their hand at it.

It is not fear and intimidation if the contractor is already doing the right things and treating his workers fairly. The rat is only scary to the contractors who are cheating the customer and/or stealing from his workers.


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## electricalwiz (Mar 12, 2011)

eejack said:


> #troll food alert#
> 
> No, for the most part we get the work we get because we are best able to do it.
> 
> ...


Why am I troll,
Who dteremines whether the contractor is able to do the work?
How do you know if the contracor is treating the worker fair?
Who determines what is fair?
The rat scares nobody, I think it is a black eye to the union


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

electricalwiz said:


> Why am I troll,
> Who dteremines whether the contractor is able to do the work?
> How do you know if the contracor is treating the worker fair?
> Who determines what is fair?
> The rat scares nobody, I think it is a black eye to the union


How about, for a change, someone else tell me...

Who determines if a contractor is able to do the work?
How do you know if the contractor is treating his workers fairly?


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

eejack said:


> No pics of me exist. Sorry.
> 
> Own time - in my local you only do picket duty when you are unemployed.


So the taxpayers foot the bill for you to play with the rat!


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## electricalwiz (Mar 12, 2011)

eejack said:


> How about, for a change, someone else tell me...
> 
> Who determines if a contractor is able to do the work?
> How do you know if the contractor is treating his workers fairly?


The contractor determines if he can do the work, union or non, and if he cant he will go out of business
I dont know if the contractor is treating people fair, the first guy I worked for did not, so I quit, the last guy I worked for was great.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

I have a quick union question, if you guys don't mind. Are you guys employees of the union? If you work, through the union, for a contractor on a job, do you get a W2 from the hall or from the contractor? Do the contractors still have to pay payroll taxes for the "employees" or is it compensated for in the contract with the union?


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Going_Commando said:


> I have a quick union question, if you guys don't mind. Are you guys employees of the union? If you work, through the union, for a contractor on a job, do you get a W2 from the hall or from the contractor? Do the contractors still have to pay payroll taxes for the "employees" or is it compensated for in the contract with the union?


You're a member of the union not an employee.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

eejack said:


> Your idea is basically cut our rates and give the contractor more latitude to do things.


No where did I say that.



But now that you mention it, would you rather have the union die on the vine, or be more competitive?


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

eejack said:


> Incorrect Steve.
> 
> I am all for the rat. I have carried the rat out to sites, blown it up and stood beside it. Marched around it all day, deflated it and stored it.
> 
> ...


been thinking on this post all day eejack

i really think this isn't a countrywide thing, this rat can't be universally accepted

so here's my challenge to you (and do not frame the question, rat or no rat for the ibew)

start a _rat poll_ here , the ballots are secret, so union based rat advocates need to man up

i'll wager you in the minority

no ratguts, no ratglory....:whistling2:~CS~


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## 19kilosparky984 (Sep 14, 2011)

eejack said:


> How about, for a change, someone else tell me...
> 
> Who determines if a contractor is able to do the work?
> How do you know if the contractor is treating his workers fairly?


You have been pretty much posting all day, don't you have a job?


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

eejack said:


> I am all for the rat. I have carried the rat out to sites, blown it up and stood beside it. Marched around it all day, deflated it and stored it.
> 
> The rat works.


It works at what?

Making grown men look like children?

Causing people who might consider going union to decide otherwise?

I really can't think of any positive thing 'the rat' does for the unions.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

19kilosparky984 said:


> You have been pretty much posting all day, don't you have a job?


No.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

chicken steve said:


> been thinking on this post all day eejack
> 
> i really think this isn't a countrywide thing, this rat can't be universally accepted
> 
> ...


No chance. With all the union animosity here, it would be a landslide against. But it would be amusing to see all the made up rat stories that folks come up with.


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

electricalwiz said:


> Why am I troll,
> Who dteremines whether the contractor is able to do the work?
> How do you know if the contracor is treating the worker fair?
> Who determines what is fair?
> The rat scares nobody, I think it is a black eye to the union


I'll go past the first statement.

*Who determines whether a contractor is able to do the work?*

There are various methods of tracking a contractor. If you're in business for yourself and have worked on any major project you would know you have to qualify to bid. How is this done? Bank statements, job history, BICS tracking, there are a LOT of ways to determine if a contractor is able to do a job. Believe me, they are checked. For example, if you want to do any public work...they go with the lowest bidder...union or non union. Therefore since they are indiscriminate in this, they have to be sure the EC bidding on the project can "handle" this size work and has shown a history of satisfied loan repayments, satisfied clients, GC's, etc. You also have to be able to pull a big enough performance bond for the project. 

*How do you know if the contractor is treating the worker fair?*

In today's world of large projects there is more than just the GC to answer to, there is usually a CM (Construction Manager) to deal with. This company's job is to represent the "owner". He makes sure each trade does their job, makes sure that all safety rules are followed, and makes sure that the workers on the project are treated fairly. Discrimination, racism, etc...anything that could hold the project up goes directly to the CM. This includes any unfair business practices that the employer might do to their respective employees. For example, say the EC has not paid his employees this week because he doesn't have the money in the bank...or he missed his "monthlies". If that's the case, the workers can inform the Electrical Super for the CM and the CM then gets involved with forcing the EC to pay the workers, or he can be put under investigation. If the workers are treated poorly enough, the CM can then inform the Dept of Labor to come in and interview the workers and go after their employer. Note...everything in this example is using an unorganized EC. 

*Who determines what is fair?*

Good question. The bean counters determine that. The US Dept of Labor...the Banks, the CM and the GC...they're the ones that determine what is fair or what is not fair.

*The rat scares nobody, I think it is a black eye to the union*

The purpose of the rat isn't to "scare" anyone. What the rat does is bring attention to one and all that the job is being done with non union labor. It is a flag to anyone seeing it that this client, GC, CM prefers to use cheaper labor and the possibility that if he uses cheap labor, he might use lower quality materials, might not have the job properly filed for, and is a flag to the tenants of the building that the owner of that building could possibly be installing sub par work. Understand this...as with much in construction...it's not personal, it's business. The rat isn't aimed at the guy working for McClary or BBQ...it is well known, and in recent years TAUGHT that the workers are NOT to be BLAMED. They have a job, they go to work, end of story. Don't attack the men with the tools. The rat is for the GC, owner, etc... embarrassment is a powerful motivator. Black eye? I think not. But that's my opinion. I have seen it work, and I've seen it not work. Depends on who owns the building and who else is a tenant in the building. I ran a job that was won because another tenant in the building forced the building manager to make the situation go away. The job went to bid and we won it, it came in on time, zero punch list items and passed electrical/fire inspections without a hitch. 

That time we won...

On the other hand, there are many times the rat has not affect at all. You never know when it's going to work.

Steve from NYC


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## electricalwiz (Mar 12, 2011)

icefalkon said:


> I'll go past the first statement.
> 
> *Who determines whether a contractor is able to do the work?*
> 
> ...


Thank You for taking the time to answer my questions, my problem with the rat as an owner and former employee is, the jobs I do are put out to bid, I win and the union shows up with a rat. I think it is childish, we all bid on the same job if you lose tough luck move onto the next one.
One company I used to work for had the rat put up on them all the time, not only did it not matter, I swear it use to give my old company more work because we would work with the rat.
I personally do not see how the rat helps in the court in of public opionon 
While you and I are gonna disagree on the union/nonunion issue, thank you for your answer


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

brian john said:


> I have asked and asked, members for a plan, my ideas as you can see are met with disdain. So unless unions wake up and smell the change there will not be any hope.
> 
> NYC is not the problem, I worked in NYC and saw the lock, hiring two local men to sit on buckets while I worked. When I tried to explain to them what I was doing (trying to tech them) I was told they did not give a f*ck, and if I singed a T&M ticket for 8 hours each, they quit slowing me down and leave.
> 
> ...


*I agree. I believe we are paying the Dems off to be our friends...sort of like the Middle Eastern countries...hoping that when we need a favor they'll help us. Problem is...they never help us...in either case!*

Steve from NYC


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

The rat is one thing that should go away, people see it and think IDIOTS, FOOLS, JERKoff's.

It does NOTHING to win the public over. If the union is to to grow it needs the public on it's side.


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## 19kilosparky984 (Sep 14, 2011)

eejack said:


> No.


Yea I figured your laid off, since 102 kinda took over your crappy little area. I mean 164 is smaller then a pimple on a midgets butt.

I guess working beats trolling a forum,riding the bench, bitterly clinging to that unemployment check.

Hey how is that hope and change working out for you?


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

eejack said:


> No chance. With all the union animosity here, it would be a landslide against. But it would be amusing to see all the made up rat stories that folks come up with.


So you're telling me that you and your union buds are all for the _'rat' _in front of some bid winner's job publicly, but would not come forward in an internet forum to back it up. or put it down?

_please....._

~CS~


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

chicken steve said:


> So you're telling me that you and your union buds are all for the _'rat' _in front of some bid winner's job publicly, but would not come forward in an internet forum to back it up. or put it down?
> 
> _please....._
> 
> ~CS~


No, it is just a foregone conclusion. You can do it if you want - would be lots of good trolling going on.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

19kilosparky984 said:


> Hey how is that hope and change working out for you?


Working out very nicely. It is pleasant to have a real president.


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## 19kilosparky984 (Sep 14, 2011)

eejack said:


> Working out very nicely. It is pleasant to have a real president.


We haven't had a real president since 1989 there mr LGLS aka troll ****


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

eejack said:


> No, it is just a foregone conclusion. You can do it if you want - would be lots of good trolling going on.


i.e.- you'd be feeling mighty alone with your rat, because most the U guys here wouldn't sign onto your zeal for it

~CS~


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

chicken steve said:


> i.e.- you'd be feeling mighty alone with your rat, because most the U guys here wouldn't sign onto your zeal for it
> 
> ~CS~


He is not that stupid, he is just trying to jerk chains.


----------

