# Leviton Is Now Making Panels...



## Max C. (Sep 29, 2016)

http://leviton.com/standalone/LoadCenter/index.html


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Very interesting. Do all your terminations at rough-in and just plug the breakers in at finish. I like the look. No barrier, though, no CSA.

The big breaker boys will hate this. Love it.


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## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

Love it!


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Sounds like an import.

NAFTA ?


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## Arrow3030 (Mar 12, 2014)

I'm curious of the cost and the availability of breakers.


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## Max C. (Sep 29, 2016)

99cents said:


> Very interesting. Do all your terminations at rough-in and just plug the breakers in at finish. I like the look. No barrier, though, no CSA.
> 
> The big breaker boys will hate this. Love it.


Even being that guy who isn't too crazy about "The Big L," this does seem pretty awesome! In the sales brochures, there is a Canadian address listed in addition to a US one. Who knows, maybe the thing is dual listed and there's an optional barrier packed in the box. 


telsa said:


> Sounds like an import.
> 
> NAFTA ?


The country or origin is not listed anywhere on the website, it seems...


Arrow3030 said:


> I'm curious of the cost and the availability of breakers.


Yet another noteworthy point. As it stands, you can get a Eaton/Cutlet-Hammer BR AFCI breaker for less than $50.00 CAD...just how much will a Leviton cost? Also, you probably wouldn't be able to casually stroll into Home Depot on a Sunday and pick up a replacement anytime soon.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

telsa said:


> Sounds like an import.
> 
> NAFTA ?


Explain please.


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## Max C. (Sep 29, 2016)

Just found another link...

http://www.finehomebuilding.com/2018/01/10/ibs-2018-leviton-load-center


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

I think the termination method is great, long long long overdue, just a shame this didn't come out before Leviton's quality went down the tubes. Based on their receptacles who knows if those breakers are any good.


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## bostonPedro (Nov 14, 2017)

Love it. Really like the termination method and .......
When working on large residential towers we will prefab panels on site or at the shop warehouse. Whips are measured and everything thing is landed in the panel and on breakers. Problem is that these "luxury" residential places have "options" so panels are already made up and then the person decided that they wanted a wine fridge, fireplace or heated tile floors after the panel was made up and installed. Normally the rough in in crew will run out the whips to their designated hr location and rough the unit and if something was added they will run those out and land grounds and neutrals. After that a fall back person will go back and land wires on breakers which takes time. Now if we used these panels you just go back and plug the breaker in as the rough in crew would have already made it up when they did the unit


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I wonder if any of the supply places will carry these (the ones who sell Leviton)? I guess the other comment I would make is I like the full length neutral bars offered by other brands, especially in the case of replacements where we don't have to install arc faults yet. That QO style neutral bar always seemed like it was too small, not enough spaces. For new construction, I can see this working out where everything is AFCI. If I were to try one out, I'd grab some ground bars I guess. Hopefully this doesn't go the way of the dodo bird and leave a lot of people stranded. I wonder what made them step into this field?


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## ktown (May 15, 2014)

If you scroll down far enough it shows a close-up of a breaker, where you can see the both the UL and the CSA stamp. So I would guess they are at least planning on bringing it to Canada at some point.

I echo nrp3, how long until Leviton gives up on this? Leviton is a big company, but so is Schneider, Eaton, GE, etc... and they aren't going to like this.

I can see it now: 10 years down the road I'll run into one of these and the 15A breaker for the one circuit I'm adding costs $350.

Looks like a nice setup if it happens to catch on though.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

It looks pretty 'intuitive' as they say more than once.

Price and availability will be a big thing.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

bostonPedro said:


> Love it. Really like the termination method and .......
> When working on large residential towers we will prefab panels on site or at the shop warehouse. Whips are measured and everything thing is landed in the panel and on breakers. Problem is that these "luxury" residential places have "options" so panels are already made up and then the person decided that they wanted a wine fridge, fireplace or heated tile floors after the panel was made up and installed. Normally the rough in in crew will run out the whips to their designated hr location and rough the unit and if something was added they will run those out and land grounds and neutrals. After that a fall back person will go back and land wires on breakers which takes time. Now if we used these panels you just go back and plug the breaker in as the rough in crew would have already made it up when they did the unit


What do you mean by prefab the panel at the shop? You wire them? Isn’t it easier to wire on site? I think a panel with a bunch of labelled whips would be a PIA


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

nrp3 said:


> I wonder what made them step into this field?


That's a good question...

I don't know how much it happened other than locally but at one point Leviton was the dominant brand in supply houses here. When Home Depot started carrying and selling Leviton cheaper than the supply houses, the supply houses switched brands. (Leviton quality definitely dipped as well, IMO.) 

So at this point it seems to me like Leviton is inextricably tied up with Home Depot, maybe their main plan with these is to take some of the Home Depot panel / breaker / etc. business from Square D. 

It would be very hard to muscle in on Square D's market share with a regular kind of panel, but with some innovation, maybe. With arc faults being the main cost in the panel equipment, and nobody that big of a fan of Square D arc fault breakers, maybe it's the right time to make a move.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Does anyone use plug in breakers for commercial?


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

eddy current said:


> Does anyone use plug in breakers for commercial?


Not in places where I have worked 'bolt on' is king.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

eddy current said:


> Does anyone use plug in breakers for commercial?


Placerville, California has the oldest hardware store west of the Mississippi.

Likewise its homes. 

( It was the nearest burg to the Gold Strike... get it ? )

Many of the oldest homes have been converted to boutique shops, law offices, dental offices, etc.

These are the only locations where you can routinely find push-on breakers in so-called Commercial Service.

Push-on breakers just don't stand up to the abuse that employees put them through.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Leviton is synonymous with Home Depot, at least here. 

I'm trying to look at this with an open mind, but I can't see the benefit. 

Many people have said that it's nice to be able to terminate the panel without the breakers, but why? If you want to terminate a panel, install the breakers. 

Personally, I like the way that I can easily replace a normal breaker which also contains the lug. If something burns up I install a new one. And the lug on the breaker is the proper size. 

In this new panel idea, if the lug burns up you have to change out the entire panel. 

Then we have the issue with not one, but 2 stab connections for each breaker. Right when vehicle chargers were starting to show the flaw in that design and panels should be moving to bolt-in design, we add another point of failure.

But the Home Depot shoppers will love it!


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

splatz said:


> That's a good question...
> 
> I don't know how much it happened other than locally but at one point Leviton was the dominant brand in supply houses here. When Home Depot started carrying and selling Leviton cheaper than the supply houses, the supply houses switched brands. (Leviton quality definitely dipped as well, IMO.)
> 
> ...


You could be right. The breaker boys have a lot of muscle and will attempt to block it from the traditional supply houses.

Leviton is an interesting company. They're independently owned and have been resistant to the mergers, acquisitions and takeovers that resulted in megacorps like Eaton and ABB. They're copycats and rarely develop products on their own. They wait for someone else to invent it and then re-invent it after patents expire and the market has been established. Even Decora was a re-invention and has to be the most successful product launch in their history.

It's a bold move. They will no doubt hit the resi market hard with zero interest in the commercial and industrial markets. If it flops, there may be a requirement to supply replacement breakers for a period of years (I believe this was the case when Schneider killed FPE).

I like it. It has a Euro look to it, kind of like the Ikea of breaker panels. 

I would try it. I haven't experienced any quality problems with Leviton myself.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> Leviton is synonymous with Home Depot, at least here.
> 
> I'm trying to look at this with an open mind, but I can't see the benefit.
> 
> ...


I would buy it simply because I hate the breaker cartel so much.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> I would buy it simply because I hate the breaker cartel so much.


I don't know what that is.

I buy inexpensive Siemens panels, throw in $3.25 breakers, and collect my check.

Anything else is just game playing.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

eddy current said:


> Does anyone use plug in breakers for commercial?


Depends on the type of commercial. I see plug-on breakers all the time in retail subpanels feeding lighting and receptacles.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> I don't know what that is.


The lobbying and under the table envelops that gave us the gift of arc fault breakers.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

HackWork said:


> *I don't know what that is.*
> 
> I buy inexpensive Siemens panels, throw in $3.25 breakers, and collect my check.
> 
> Anything else is just game playing.


Would it have been better if he used* 'cabal'*?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Looks nice, seems an improvement in design


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> The lobbying and under the table envelops that gave us the gift of arc fault breakers.


 While I agree with your disdain, do you really think that Leviton is any better?


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> While I agree with your disdain, do you really think that Leviton is any better?


I will wait to see it. So far I like what I see. It will depend on things like wiring space and how fast I can throw it in. I have no loyalty (I like Siemens but I'm not married to them).


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

You are all over the place. A second ago you were talking about companies themselves, not the actual products. Now you’re talking about the product.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> You are all over the place. A second ago you were talking about companies themselves, not the actual products. Now you’re talking about the product.



You make no sense.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

If you're asking me about Leviton in general, I already said I have had no quality issues myself.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

Hack, it looks like you can replace the individual terminals.

I wonder what the max size breaker allowed is, or what the max size wire can be terminated under those lugs? 

The clear view window is cool, because it won't get scratched up in no time.....

It looks like Milbank is supplying some of the parts, so maybe they are making the enclosures too? 

I'd buy at least one to check it out, but like it has been said, how long until they scrap it.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> You make no sense.


I make perfect sense.

You said this:



99cents said:


> I would buy it simply because I hate the breaker cartel so much.


You were talking about the company, not the product.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Switched said:


> Hack, it looks like you can replace the individual terminals.


 Gotcha. I wonder what that assembly looks like. It sounds like another point of failure.



> I wonder what the max size breaker allowed is, or what the max size wire can be terminated under those lugs?


 That's also what I was wondering. I HATE putting #14 into a 1/0 lug. But it would have to be that way since the lugs come built into the panel indiscriminate of the breaker size.



> The clear view window is cool, because it won't get scratched up in no time.....
> 
> It looks like Milbank is supplying some of the parts, so maybe they are making the enclosures too?
> 
> I'd buy at least one to check it out, but like it has been said, how long until they scrap it.


I think what 99cents said about it being "Ikea"ish is very true. Being sold in Home Depot will make it take off. And we will have yet another stupid and inferior product that we have to contend with.


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## Arrow3030 (Mar 12, 2014)

It's a nifty design but I'm not sure it's solving a problem. 

I'd be more excited if it collected data from each breaker and stored the info on a flash drive. Kinda like how mechanics work on cars now.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> Gotcha. I wonder what that assembly looks like. It sounds like another point of failure.
> 
> That's also what I was wondering. I HATE putting #14 into a 1/0 lug. But it would have to be that way since the lugs come built into the panel indiscriminate of the breaker size.
> 
> ...



I get it. You don't like Leviton. I prefer "wait and see".


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> I get it. You don't like Leviton. I prefer "wait and see".


I don't like any brand.

But that has nothing to do with our previous conversation where you seemed to dislike all the other brands other than Leviton.

Like I said, you are all over the place. Are you only going to buy Leviton panels because you dislike the other brands, which you originally said? Or are you only going to buy them if you like the products?


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

I see some advantage but not a lot. 

Actually, I see a panel designed to minimum standards (a lot like IEC stuff) by educated idiot engineers that will very likely be less reliable than the current panels we install. 

It even looks like IEC which in my experience is pretty much garbage though I will admit that the miniature IEC breakers are pretty good. 

I wonder if the instructions allow changing a breaker with the panel energized......bet not. 

Further, if changing a breaker is easy, the temptation for your average homeowner to 'put a 30 in' will be even greater than it is now.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> I don't like any brand.
> 
> But that has nothing to do with our previous conversation where you seemed to dislike all the other brands other than Leviton.
> 
> Like I said, you are all over the place. Are you only going to buy Leviton panels because you dislike the other brands, which you originally said? Or are you only going to buy them if you like the products?


I liked you better when you sent me photos of your teeny weeny. Now you're just being argumentative.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> I liked you better when you sent me photos of your teeny weeny. Now you're just being argumentative.


What you post makes no sense. First you make a chicken steve post about the manufacturer cabal, in which I asked you if you thought Leviton was any better in that respect. Instead of actually answering that, you replied talking about the product itself. And then when I made a reply to you, you ignored it and quoted the reply that I made to another poster.

Sometimes I wonder if you are spending too much time in the Trailer Park Boys trailer smoking dope all day.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Let me clear this up for you, Hacksy baby. In the meantime, open the window in your van. You need some fresh air even if it's only NJ air.

I don't like the breaker boys so, if Leviton wants to take them on, good on them. I'm not committed to anybody but, given the current options, Siemens is my panel of choice. I'm interested to see what the Leviton looks like.

Simple stuff, actually.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Switched said:


> Hack, it looks like you can replace the individual terminals.
> 
> I wonder what the max size breaker allowed is, or what the max size wire can be terminated under those lugs?
> 
> ...


If they scrap it some chinese company will bring it back out maybe under the levitown brand name.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

So let's go back to the beginning. Maybe this time you will engage in a normal conversation.


99cents said:


> I don't like the breaker boys so, if Leviton wants to take them on, good on them.


While I agree with your disdain, do you really think that Leviton is any better?


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> So let's go back to the beginning. Maybe this time you will engage in a normal conversation.
> 
> 
> While I agree with your disdain, do you really think that Leviton is any better?


How do I know? I haven't seen it and there is obviously no track record.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> How do I know? I haven't seen it and there is obviously no track record.


You haven't seen WHAT?

You brought up the companies, and that is what we are speaking about now, not the product. 

So let me try this for the 4th time, do you think Leviton is any better as a company than the "breaker cartels"? Do you think Leviton doesn't engage in "lobbying and under the table envelops"?


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> You haven't seen WHAT?
> 
> You brought up the companies, and that is what we are speaking about now, not the product.
> 
> So let me try this for the 4th time, do you think Leviton is any better as a company than the "breaker cartels"? Do you think Leviton doesn't engage in "lobbying and under the table envelops"?


Why you gotta be like this, Hack? Leviton probably does what they need to do. I just like it when they take on the big boys.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

How is it that talking about manufacturers plus their products becomes a pissing contest? Settle down, Hacksy.


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## Arrow3030 (Mar 12, 2014)

I could be wrong but I think 99 likes capitalism. Adding a major player to the game in theory should put pressure on the guys already locked in the market to compete for our business. Usually as consumers this is a good thing.

Personally, I don't think a trick panel from a bottom of the barrel manufacturer is going to rattle any cages.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> Why you gotta be like this, Hack? Leviton probably does what they need to do. I just like it when they take on the big boys.


Why do I have to be like what? Someone asking a simple question?

As for what you said about Leviton, aren't they one of the big boys? That is what I have been asking you about and still don't understand. 

Leviton is right up there with all the manufacturers. You are just adding one more enemy. They aren't going to "take on" any other manufacturer, they are going to add to the problem by adding more lobbying and passing out more envelops under the table.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Arrow3030 said:


> I could be wrong but I think 99 likes capitalism. Adding a major player to the game in theory should put pressure on the guys already locked in the market to compete for our business. Usually as consumers this is a good thing.
> 
> Personally, I don't think a trick panel from a bottom of the barrel manufacturer is going to rattle any cages.


This panel is going to be expensive. Imagine all the other manufacturers embrace this design and push for it to be required? Then we are right back to the AFCI situation, the manufacturers making rules to give them more profit.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> This panel is going to be expensive.


How do you know it will be expensive? If it comes out and is inexpensive, should I obsessively stalk you until you admit you're wrong?


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I may be wrong, but in order for them to compete, it has to be in the current price range to have a shot at taking hold. The other guys have a lot invested in plug on neutrals as it. I'd be surprised if any follow suit immediately.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> How do you know it will be expensive?


 That's an assumption that I made.



> If it comes out and is inexpensive, should I obsessively stalk you until you admit you're wrong?


Only if I did not admit to it. But I would. I would engage in a conversation about it and discuss the price and how I made a mistake.

Now, back to the thread, why do you keep ignoring my simple question?

How many more times do I have to ask it? I really don't understand what you are doing here. All I am asking is why you are saying that Leviton is any different than the other manufacturers that you call a cartel?

You quoted one sentence that I posted about the price, a post that I made to someone else. Yet you won't answer the question I asked you. WTF is wrong with you?


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

nrp3 said:


> I may be wrong, but in order for them to compete, it has to be in the current price range to have a shot at taking hold. The other guys have a lot invested in plug on neutrals as it. I'd be surprised if any follow suit immediately.


I agree with what someone else said. This has an IEC look to it, carefully engineered to do its job with no excess. It would be unlike Leviton to make an overpriced panel to enter the highly competitive residential market.


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## Arrow3030 (Mar 12, 2014)

This panel will absolutely have to be priced in-line with CH/QO for it to have a chance.

Last year I tried a BR quick neutral and a CH plug on neutral. Very underwhelming results IMO. I'm back to regular BR for the most part. 

I don't see this panel as being any better or offering anything new and exciting. It really seems like the same trick with new packaging which is why it may not even launch...


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Arrow3030 said:


> This panel will absolutely have to be priced in-line with CH/QO for it to have a chance.
> 
> Last year I tried a BR quick neutral and a CH plug on neutral. Very underwhelming results IMO. I'm back to regular BR for the most part.
> 
> I don't see this panel as being any better or offering anything new and exciting. It really seems like the same trick with new packaging which is why it may not even launch...


I don't see how they will be able to make it cheaper. The bus is going to cost significantly more to product with all those lugs, compared to a normal bus which is incredibly simple. My first thought is that they could transfer some of the cost of the lugs from the price of the breakers, but I doubt they will be able to produce those any cheaper either.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> That's an assumption that I made.
> 
> 
> Only if I did not admit to it. But I would. I would engage in a conversation about it and discuss the price and how I made a mistake.
> ...


What do you want from me, a photo of Leviton passing an envelop under the table? I already said that Leviton will do what they need to do. I'm not ignoring you. Try to keep up.

If you're pissed because I called the breaker boys a cartel, that's your issue, not mine.

Who cares if you made the comment to someone else? This is a forum. If you want a private message, use private messaging.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

nrp3 said:


> I may be wrong, but in order for them to compete, it has to be in the current price range to have a shot at taking hold. The other guys have a lot invested in plug on neutrals as it. I'd be surprised if any follow suit immediately.


I'd think they would be under the price of the current choices to make some headway in the market.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> What do you want from me, a photo of Leviton passing an envelop under the table? I already said that Leviton will do what they need to do. I'm not ignoring you. Try to keep up.
> 
> If you're pissed because I called the breaker boys a cartel, that's your issue, not mine.


I'm not pissed about you calling the breaker manufacturers a cartel. I already said that I agree with you on that. I am asking you quite clearly why you think Leviton is any different. You are calling the other manufacturers a cartel (rightly so) yet you are acting like Leviton is some big white knight here to save us.

As for you posting a picture of Leviton passing an envelope under the table, that wouldn't change anything because it is you who has been saying that Leviton is somehow different and doesn't do that. So I don't understand that reference. I think you just confused yourself and mixed up your trolling.

So again, I will ask why you are acting like Leviton is any different? Why you think they will make it better, instead of worse like what usually happens?

Back to your very first post that I wanted to have a simple discussion about, you said that you would support Leviton because they are taking on the cartel. But the truth is that they are JOINING the cartel, and going to make it stronger, no?




> Who cares if you made the comment to someone else? This is a forum. If you want a private message, use private messaging.


 It wasn't private, the point is that it was silly the way that you ignored the post that I made to you, but you picked out one little sentence that I posted to someone else in an attempt to insult me. Your trolling is very transparent.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> I don't see how they will be able to make it cheaper. The bus is going to cost significantly more to product with all those lugs, compared to a normal bus which is incredibly simple. My first thought is that they could transfer some of the cost of the lugs from the price of the breakers, but I doubt they will be able to produce those any cheaper either.


Who knows, maybe they teamed up with a Euro manufacturer who is making close to the same product already. They wouldn't go into this without a clear understanding of development and manufacturing costs relative to selling price.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> Who knows, maybe they teamed up with a Euro manufacturer who is making close to the same product already. They wouldn't go into this without a clear understanding of development and manufacturing costs relative to selling price.


Or maybe their end goal is to be like AFCI's. Not give a f*ck about price because they will be supplying a code required product.

Oh, wait, Leviton would never do that


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> I'm not pissed about you calling the breaker manufacturers a cartel. I already said that I agree with you on that. I am asking you quite clearly why you think Leviton is any different. You are calling the other manufacturers a cartel (rightly so) yet you are acting like Leviton is some big white knight here to save us.
> 
> As for you posting a picture of Leviton passing an envelope under the table, that wouldn't change anything because it is you who has been saying that Leviton is somehow different and doesn't do that. So I don't understand that reference. I think you just confused yourself and mixed up your trolling.
> 
> ...


I'm not trolling anybody. I am having a discussion while you're jerking yourself off with obsessive compulsive arguments.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Like Mech says it has to be at or lower than BR, Homeline, Siemens, etc. I don't think pricing at CH or QO is going to get you anywhere.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> I'm not trolling anybody. I am having a discussion while you're jerking yourself off with obsessive compulsive arguments.


Yet your "discussion" still hasn't responded to the question of why you think Leviton entering that market will hurt the other manufacturers instead of help them do what you accused them of doing.

A very simple question that I politely asked a long time ago and you have ignored for the 5th time now.

What is it with you liberals blatantly ignoring simple questions? Did you think Trudeau looked good or reasonable when he did it?


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

I think it's a stupid idea. A neutral buss is a good idea and will rid us of the tails, this breaker with no connection for wire? Don't like it.

If you buy a regular 15 amp breaker and a 60 amp breaker, they are designed differently to handle the size of wire required. 

I'm curious how this leviton panel will do that? No way each lug will be able to handle any size wire.

What if I buy a hot tub or a Tesla charger and need a 60 or 80 amp breaker? Or want to run a sub panel? What if my hot tub is 200ft away and I need even bigger wire due to the voltage drop?

And like others have said, what if the lug burns up because the wire wasn't terminated properly?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

eddy current said:


> I think it's a stupid idea. A neutral buss is a good idea and will rid us of the tails, this breaker with no connection for wire? Don't like it.
> 
> If you buy a regular 15 amp breaker and a 60 amp breaker, they are designed differently to handle the size of wire required.
> 
> ...


If the lugs are replaceable like Switched mentioned, then I could see the panel coming with lugs up to 50A or so, then selling replacement lugs for larger conductors separately.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

HackWork said:


> If the lugs are replaceable like Switched mentioned, then I could see the panel coming with lugs up to 50A or so, then selling replacement lugs for larger conductors separately.


Or maybe the bigger lugs come with the bigger breakers?

Still don't like it


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

HackWork said:


> If the lugs are replaceable like Switched mentioned, then I could see the panel coming with lugs up to 50A or so, then selling replacement lugs for larger conductors separately.


But like you said... Just another point of failure being added to the system. Selling replacement lugs is great for them, but just another stupid added expense for us, plus lugging around stupid stock for it.

Conceptually, I guess this is kinda cool. Will it be in actuality? I don't know, but I would like to see one.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> Yet your "discussion" still hasn't responded to the question of why you think Leviton entering that market will hurt the other manufacturers instead of help them do what you accused them of doing.
> 
> A very simple question that I politely asked a long time ago and you have ignored for the 5th time now.
> 
> What is it with you liberals blatantly ignoring simple questions? Did you think Trudeau looked good or reasonable when he did it?


I gave you your answers. Not my problem if you can't process them.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> I gave you your answers. Not my problem if you can't process them.


You never gave any reason why you say that Leviton will somehow fight against the other manufacturers instead of help them.

I'm not sure why you won't just explain.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Switched said:


> But like you said... Just another point of failure being added to the system. Selling replacement lugs is great for them, but just another stupid added expense for us, plus lugging around stupid stock for it.
> 
> Conceptually, I guess this is kinda cool. Will it be in actuality? I don't know, but I would like to see one.


I agree that the concept was a bit intriguing when I first looked at it.

But I would prefer to see us go in reverse and have bolt on breakers, now that vehicle chargers are exacerbating the issues with the bus stab design.


----------



## Arrow3030 (Mar 12, 2014)

The site says you can put up go 60 amp copper and 50 amp aluminum. I think after that the breakers have a more standard design but bot sure.

This is a new mouse trap but not a better one. Victor is still the best


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> You never gave any reason why you say that Leviton will somehow fight against the other manufacturers instead of help them.
> 
> I'm not sure why you won't just explain.


Duh. They will be competitors. You will have to explain how that somehow helps them. Your words, not mine.


----------



## Max C. (Sep 29, 2016)

While this does still hold some promise, I agree completely regarding the comments of impracticality. It seems as if this is designed almost exclusively for residential, new construction...so why account for any of those "silly," larger wire sizes without additional lugs  The price would indeed have to be darn competitive if they ever want this to gain ground. Also, we can only hope that Leviton's self-testing GFCI breakers are better than their receptacles!

Furthermore, its strange that Leviton decided on this, especially this just now. It poses the question - was this some spur-of-the-moment decision by an engineer, or has the product been in-the-works for several years? It might be the equivalent of Siemens coming out with a line or EMT benders or Makita going into receptacles "just 'cause..."

Finally, Hack, is this your place of residence 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hackensack,_New_Jersey


----------



## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

Arrow3030 said:


> The site says you can put up go 60 amp copper and 50 amp aluminum. I think after that the breakers have a more standard design but bot sure.
> 
> This is a new mouse trap but not a better one. Victor is still the best


I guess in the end it seems a rather limiting design then.... Have to wait for it to actually be available before final judgment.

Maybe only the NC residential guys will use it, but it would have to be super cheap for them to do that.

I also would rather see a bolt on configuration, but that would be bad for service calls.... I vote FPE and Zinsco make a comeback, and those super crappy twin Challenger breakers too.


----------



## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Max C. said:


> While this does still hold some promise, I agree completely regarding the comments of impracticality. It seems as if this is designed almost exclusively for residential, new construction...so why account for any of those "silly," larger wire sizes without additional lugs  The price would indeed have to be darn competitive if they ever want this to gain ground. Also, we can only hope that Leviton's self-testing GFCI breakers are better than their receptacles!
> 
> Furthermore, its strange that Leviton decided on this, especially this just now. It poses the question - was this some spur-of-the-moment decision by an engineer, or has the product been in-the-works for several years? It might be the equivalent of Siemens coming out with a line or EMT benders or Makita going into receptacles "just 'cause..."
> 
> ...


Man you use a very small font. Hard for us old guys to read! :glasses:


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> Duh. They will be competitors. You will have to explain how that somehow helps them. Your words, not mine.


I don't know what this means.

Are you going to answer my question or not? 

Since you keep playing stupid, I will ask it for the 8th time:

You said: 


99cents said:


> I would buy it simply because I hate the breaker cartel so much.


 And you went on to say that the problem with the other manufacturers in the "breaker cartel" is:


99cents said:


> The lobbying and under the table envelops that gave us the gift of arc fault breakers.



I asked why you think Leviton is any different than the other manufacturers? And how do you think they will help stop the other manufacturers from doing those things? Why do you think they won't join in and help the other manufacturers do those things?

Why not just answer the question?


----------



## Max C. (Sep 29, 2016)

eddy current said:


> Man you use a very small font. Hard for us old guys to read! :glasses:


Sorry, didn't mean no harm, eh :vs_shake:


----------



## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Max C. said:


> Sorry, didn't mean no harm, eh :vs_shake:


All good, I'm still in denial about having to read with glasses :wink:


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> I don't know what this means.
> 
> Are you going to answer my question or not?
> 
> ...


Stop being asinine. If you're incapable of normal converrsation, get professional help.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> Stop being asinine. If you're incapable of normal converrsation, get professional help.


All I want is a normal conversation. No matter how clear I make my question, you simply refuse to answer it. Yet you continually insult me trying to say that there is something wrong with me.

Why have you chosen to follow in chicken steve's footsteps of posting something that doesn't make any sense and then refuse to explain it? 

All you have to do is answer the question, that's it. One or two sentences. Why can't you do that like a normal person?

I will point out that you have no problem responding to each and every one of my posts, you just won't actually discuss the topic at hand. That shows that you are just trolling.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> All I want is a normal conversation. No matter how clear I make my question, you simply refuse to answer it. Yet you continually insult me trying to say that there is something wrong with me.
> 
> Why have you chosen to follow in chicken steve's footsteps of posting something that doesn't make any sense and then refuse to explain it?
> 
> ...


I answered your questions. Will you be stalking me now the same as you stalk Steve and tesla?


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> I answered your questions. Will you be stalking me now the same as you stalk Steve and tesla?


Show me where you answered my question.

Or better yet, why not just post it in your next post? Would that really be so hard? 

You repeated twice that you are going to wait and see once the product is released, but that has absolutely nothing to do with my question about the companies themselves, as I pointed out.

Answer my question, thanks.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> Show me where you answered my question.
> 
> Or better yet, why not just post it in your next post? Would that really be so hard?
> 
> ...


This is boring. Go away.


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

There is no chance I would buy this product. I'll stick with Square D. It has obvious heavy European IEC influence and we all know how great IEC products are. :no:


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> This is boring. Go away.


Why won't you answer my question?

The excuse that you answered them already was just busted by the fact that you won't quote your posts with the answers.

You are trolling. And now I will have to do my duty and ask you to answer the question from now until the day that you finally do.

You got what you wanted.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Hack, this rabid dog act of yours is tiresome. Now I will be getting more private messages asking what your problem is.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> Hack, this rabid dog act of yours is tiresome.


Then why don't you just answer the simple question? 

_Why you think Leviton is any different than the other manufacturers? And how do you think they will help stop the other manufacturers from lobbying for their own expensive products and handing out envelopes under the table? Why do you think they won't join in and help the other manufacturers do those things?_

You refuse to answer. But you still respond to every one of my posts, even after you said you were bored and not going to respond anymore. You are trolling. If you weren't, you would just answer the question.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Here's a suggestion for you, Hack:


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> Here's a suggestion for you, Hack:


You will spend the time doing that, yet you won't just answer my question.

You are literally taking this right out of chicken steve's playbook.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Talk to me tomorrow after the cocaine wears off, Hack.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> Talk to me tomorrow after the cocaine wears off, Hack.


No.

Answer my question and end this right now.

Why won't you?


----------



## Signal1 (Feb 10, 2016)

This is going 1000, I can tell.

Anyway, some nice features but for some reason it seems geared to the HO/DIY'er. 

Maybe Leviton's intention?


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Signal1 said:


> This is going 1000, I can tell.
> 
> Anyway, some nice features but for some reason it seems geared to the HO/DIY'er.
> 
> Maybe Leviton's intention?


It does have that feel to it, come to think of it.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> It does have that feel to it, come to think of it.


Why you think Leviton is any different than the other manufacturers? And how do you think they will help stop the other manufacturers from lobbying for their own expensive products and handing out envelopes under the table? Why do you think they won't join in and help the other manufacturers do those things?


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> Why you think Leviton is any different than the other manufacturers? And how do you think they will help stop the other manufacturers from lobbying for their own expensive products and handing out envelopes under the table? Why do you think they won't join in and help the other manufacturers do those things?


You don't understand. Leviton is going to be the maverick and save the industry from the scourge of ripoff AFCI's.


----------



## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

Switched said:


> I guess in the end it seems a rather limiting design then.... Have to wait for it to actually be available before final judgment.
> 
> Maybe only the NC residential guys will use it, but it would have to be super cheap for them to do that.
> 
> I also would rather see a bolt on configuration, but that would be bad for service calls.... I vote FPE and Zinsco make a comeback, and those super crappy twin Challenger breakers too.


I would be all for everything being bolt on resi / comm / indus


----------



## Arrow3030 (Mar 12, 2014)

Signal1 said:


> This is going 1000, I can tell.
> 
> Anyway, some nice features but for some reason it seems geared to the HO/DIY'er.
> 
> Maybe Leviton's intention?


You might have the smartest post on this thread.

I can almost see the end cap at HD already.


----------



## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

Is this new panel going to come with all
the AFCI & dual function circuit breakers
already installed in it?


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MTW said:


> You don't understand. Leviton is going to be the maverick and save the industry from the scourge of ripoff AFCI's.


You're right, I don't understand. And the person who said it won't explain. But he will make 32 posts weaseling his way out of explaining.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

lighterup said:


> Is this new panel going to come with all
> the AFCI & dual function circuit breakers
> already installed in it?


For $7,399 :vs_laugh:


----------



## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

HackWork said:


> For $7,399 :vs_laugh:



All the examples are showing them packed with afci breakers
and thety appear to be unique to this product (not interchangeable)

I'm seriously wondering if this is a package deal?


----------



## Arrow3030 (Mar 12, 2014)

lighterup said:


> I would be all for everything being bolt on resi / comm / indus


I could be wrong but I think bolt on cans are 20" wide minimum. Not saying this wouldn't work for flush mounts but I can hardly get the framer to put in 16" to center bays where I tell them.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

lighterup said:


> All the examples are showing them packed with afci breakers
> and thety appear to be unique to this product (not interchangeable)
> 
> I'm seriously wondering if this is a package deal?


Yeah, a steal for $7,399 :vs_laugh:


----------



## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

HackWork said:


> Yeah, a steal for $7,399 :vs_laugh:


Okay..thanx for your responselain:


anyone else wanna address this...anyone? anyone?:smile:


----------



## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

Arrow3030 said:


> I could be wrong but I think bolt on cans are 20" wide minimum. Not saying this wouldn't work for flush mounts but I can hardly get the framer to put in 16" to center bays where I tell them.


well yes ..they way they are currently designed.

Can you imagine if they redesigned these for residential?

The DIYers would dramatically decrease


----------



## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

BTW...i call first dibs on post 500

when 99 comes back , it'll pick up again


----------



## Arrow3030 (Mar 12, 2014)

lighterup said:


> HackWork said:
> 
> 
> > For $7,399
> ...


I'll bite. I don't think so.

Are there any packaged deals with AFCI now? I don't think so.

I would sell spare breakers for this so when the self test fails the customer doesn't have to wait for a back ordered item.

I read somewhere that these will stop working after about 10 years. No reference so take this with 0 credibility.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

;4752537 said:


> Okay..thanx for your responselain:
> 
> 
> anyone else wanna address this...anyone? anyone?:smile:


You want to know if a panel that isn’t even made yet and may never hit the market is going to come full with $7399 worth of breakers, many of which won’t be needed? How would anyone answer that?


----------



## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

There are packages with afci’s from other brands.

But Leviton will safe us from the bad, bad breaker mafia.


----------



## Arrow3030 (Mar 12, 2014)

lighterup said:


> Arrow3030 said:
> 
> 
> > I could be wrong but I think bolt on cans are 20" wide minimum. Not saying this wouldn't work for flush mounts but I can hardly get the framer to put in 16" to center bays where I tell them.
> ...


I'd be more than happy with bolt ons in resi. Get rid of the option for half space breakers at least.

I'm pretty sure the 20" is the smallest they can make it to allow for reasonable bending radius.

Rather than a redisign the framer would have to pay a little more attention IMO.


----------



## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

HackWork said:


> You want to know if a panel that isn’t even made yet and may never hit the market is going to come full with $7399 worth of breakers, many of which won’t be needed? How would anyone answer that?


Oh I don't know. Let me think...hmm
110 posts about this product ...guess I got ahead of 
myself there King of all ball busters


----------



## Arrow3030 (Mar 12, 2014)

eddy current said:


> There are packages with afci’s from other brands.
> 
> But Leviton will safe us from the bad, bad breaker mafia.


No kidding!?
Do you buy them? 
Which makes? 
Is it an a la carte order or do they give you the same set every time?
I'd be interested if it saves a buck obviously.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

lighterup said:


> Oh I don't know. Let me think...hmm
> 110 posts about this product ...guess I got ahead of
> myself there King of all ball busters


I love you too :wink:


----------



## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Arrow3030 said:


> eddy current said:
> 
> 
> > There are packages with afci’s from other brands.
> ...


??? You’ve honestly never seen them? 

https://www.homedepot.ca/en/home/p....l-panel-package-with-breakers.1001002723.html


----------



## Arrow3030 (Mar 12, 2014)

eddy current said:


> ??? You’ve honestly never seen them?
> 
> https://www.homedepot.ca/en/home/p....l-panel-package-with-breakers.1001002723.html


Honestly, I haven't. Obviously the convenience is nice but how much does it actually save?


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Arrow3030 said:


> Honestly, I haven't. Obviously the convenience is nice but how much does it actually save?


I have done the math and it saves some money. Depends on the package and the manufacturer.


----------



## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Arrow3030 said:


> Honestly, I haven't. Obviously the convenience is nice but how much does it actually save?


Saves a lot. I have never done a ressidential panel swap and bought an empty panel and breakers separately. Even if you have extras left over and or have to buy a couple odd ones it’s still cheaper.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents, can you answer please?


----------



## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

eddy current said:


> ??? You’ve honestly never seen them?
> 
> https://www.homedepot.ca/en/home/p....l-panel-package-with-breakers.1001002723.html


we have them here thruogh supplier (Siemens) but I don;t 
buy them cause I boycotted Seimens


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> 99cents, can you answer please?


What username of yours' should I reply to, Hack or MTW?


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> What username of yours' should I reply to, Hack or MTW?


Are you really that slow?? 


That’s it, this thread officially has AIDS. The buttsecks kind.


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

99cents said:


> What username of yours' should I reply to, Hack or MTW?


Are you Chicken Steve?


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

MTW said:


> Are you Chicken Steve?


No but you're Hack. Pathetic.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> No but you're Hack. Pathetic.


You do realize that you’re the only person here who thinks that, right? Many people here know each of us. 

I know you’re grasping for anything that you think you can reach, but I’m just trying to save you the embarrassment.


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

99cents said:


> No but you're Hack. Pathetic.


I told you already that I'm xaH.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> You do realize that you’re the only person here who thinks that, right? Many people here know each of us.
> 
> I know you’re grasping for anything that you think you can reach, but I’m just trying to save you the embarrassment.


Okay, so let them come to your defense. Anybody?


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Wait a second... if I am Peter D, then that would mean that I made sweet, passionate love to Chris1976.


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> Wait a second... if I am Peter D, then that would mean that I made sweet, passionate love to Chris1976.


:brows::brows:


----------



## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

My aunt works at Leviton, has for about 30 years now. I sent her a message demanding to speak with someone about this....

After she's done ignoring me I'll see what I can dig up, hoping she can pull a few strings and then I can send it to Brian so he can melt it.....


----------



## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

99cents said:


> The lobbying and under the table envelops that gave us the gift of arc fault breakers.


You have the gift of insight 

Let's see ... A manufacturer of $20 AFCIs and GFCIs make their own panel.

The plug in breakers could easily be their receptacle versions :biggrin:

I'd be worried if I was Siemens, Eaton et al. :vs_laugh:

Good call 99 :thumbsup:


----------



## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

Oh My 

I didn't know this thread turned into a chitshow when I replied.

Sorry ... carry on :boxing:


----------



## bostonPedro (Nov 14, 2017)

eddy current said:


> What do you mean by prefab the panel at the shop? You wire them? Isn’t it easier to wire on site? I think a panel with a bunch of labelled whips would be a PIA


Its easier to prefab the HRs and have everything terminated. All home run wires lengths are determined on CAD. You pull wire through a measuring gage, cut and tape in a loop leaving loose about 6-7 feet which is what you terminate the panels with and still have some slack in loops, when all wires are terminated you tie all the odd numbers together and do the same with the evens and put it on a pallet and stack them. Once on the job site, you put a ledger in place, put panel on ledger and screw to the studs. All the panels when prefabbed have L shaped stud metal screwed though the side and set at the proper depth for Sheetrock. Hang some romex on ceiling and use it to hold up the loops. 
To wire simply take down loops and cut tape on individual loop and run the run the home run. Keep doing it until all are done and then rough the place in. It goes fast both in the controlled environment prefabbing and on site and its very easy


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Arrow3030 said:


> It's a nifty design but I'm not sure it's solving a problem.
> 
> I'd be more excited if it collected data from each breaker and stored the info on a flash drive. Kinda like how mechanics work on cars now.


we install panels that have those capabilities.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I love prefabbing stuff, but I don’t know if that would work out for me. How many circuits does a typical panel have? How about the average length of homerun? Are these only for smaller apartments?


----------



## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

bostonPedro said:


> Its easier to prefab the HRs and have everything terminated. All home run wires lengths are determined on CAD. You pull wire through a measuring gage, cut and tape in a loop leaving loose about 6-7 feet which is what you terminate the panels with and still have some slack in loops, when all wires are terminated you tie all the odd numbers together and do the same with the evens and put it on a pallet and stack them. Once on the job site, you put a ledger in place, put panel on ledger and screw to the studs. All the panels when prefabbed have L shaped stud metal screwed though the side and set at the proper depth for Sheetrock. Hang some romex on ceiling and use it to hold up the loops.
> To wire simply take down loops and cut tape on individual loop and run the run the home run. Keep doing it until all are done and then rough the place in. It goes fast both in the controlled environment prefabbing and on site and its very easy


To me it seems like it would take longer than wire on reels. Lacing the panel is done last and doesn’t take long enough to validate pre fab IMO.

Interesting though and I would like to see it done


----------



## Arrow3030 (Mar 12, 2014)

bostonPedro said:


> eddy current said:
> 
> 
> > What do you mean by prefab the panel at the shop? You wire them? Isn’t it easier to wire on site? I think a panel with a bunch of labelled whips would be a PIA
> ...


Wait, what? I must be missing something. 

Is on site panel make up that much of labor burn for people?

IMO, that's probably the easiest labor to calculate on a job.


----------



## Arrow3030 (Mar 12, 2014)

brian john said:


> Arrow3030 said:
> 
> 
> > It's a nifty design but I'm not sure it's solving a problem.
> ...


What field?

I'm fairly sure the IOT world will be standard in my lifetime.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

eddy current said:


> To me it seems like it would take longer than wire on reels. Lacing the panel is done last and doesn’t take long enough to validate pre fab IMO.
> 
> Interesting though and I would like to see it done


The uncoiling of the cable would take as long or longer than just pulling it off a reel like you said.

Putting the cables in the panel would take the same amount of time whether it’s done at the shop or on the job site.

Plus you have to do the work of figuring out how long each homerun needs to be. Plus wasted cable.

I’m not seeing the benefit. It’s intersting though.


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> The uncoiling of the cable would take as long or longer than just pulling it off a reel like you said.
> 
> Putting the cables in the panel would take the same amount of time whether it’s done at the shop or on the job site.
> 
> ...


Mill conversions are very common where I live. This is where they take old textile mills (ones that survived demolition or arson) and convert them into apartments and commercial spaces. Usually it's cookie cutter work and from what I've heard from J-men and apprentices I know, they use a panel pre-fab system for them. I would like to see it in action to see just how beneficial it is, if at all.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Is the cost savings due to paying the laborers who fabricate it less due to them not being licensed or union?


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> Is the cost savings due to paying the laborers who fabricate it less due to them not being licensed or union?



Good question, I'm not sure who works in the pre-fab shop of these big contractors who do that kind of work but I assume they don't need to hire licensed electricians for that. It's a loophole in our licensing laws since prefabbing is technically not installation.


----------



## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

So I heard this today, that T&B / ABB are now making panels too...

Here is the link...

http://new.abb.com/low-voltage/launches/sentricity/sentricity-products/load-centres

Cheers
John


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Navyguy said:


> So I heard this today, that T&B / ABB are now making panels too...
> 
> Here is the link...
> 
> ...



Interesting. T&B made a line of residential load centers about 20 years ago that disappeared after a few years on the market. What was even more interesting about them is they were exact clones of the Eaton/Cutler Hammer/Westinghouse BR line that is still in existence. I use BR breakers when I encounter a T&B panel.


----------



## Arrow3030 (Mar 12, 2014)

Navyguy said:


> So I heard this today, that T&B / ABB are now making panels too...
> 
> Here is the link...
> 
> ...


Sentricity is a cool name. If it's available to me and priced right, I'll try it on a job. Same as the leviton TBH.


----------



## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

Reminds me of Square D Trilliant panels which were a flash in the pan.


----------



## bostonPedro (Nov 14, 2017)

HackWork said:


> I love prefabbing stuff, but I don’t know if that would work out for me. How many circuits does a typical panel have? How about the average length of homerun? Are these only for smaller apartments?



Typically 20 to 36 circuits. Its done on high rise "luxury" towers which are cookie cutter for most floors, as you get higher the floor plan will change though but will stay the same for another 10-15 floors and typically the 2 top floors aka penthouse will be wired the old fashioned way because the ceiling heights make prefabbing not desirable. Example, I recently worked on one and the first 16 floors were all the same typically 1 ans 2 bedrooms with corner units having 3 bedrooms. The were 17 units on these floors. The floor plan then changed for the next 10 floors and there were 10 units on these floors. The 2 top floors had 5 units. So as you go up the building there are more circuits because they are bigger but thats when luxury options kick in ie wine fridge, heated floors maybe a fireplace. The top 2 floors had 32-26 circuits


----------



## bostonPedro (Nov 14, 2017)

HackWork said:


> Is the cost savings due to paying the laborers who fabricate it less due to them not being licensed or union?


Union electricians. It saves money because its in a controlled environment. Basically like working in a factory so to speak so its effeicient


----------



## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

bostonPedro said:


> Union electricians. It saves money because its in a controlled environment. Basically like working in a factory so to speak so its effeicient


How exciting that work must be......NOT! 

Most of my experience was on a service van but I’ve been on big commercial jobs that felt like an assembly line. I always asked to do something different to keep from going crazy. Not my cup of tea.


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## bostonPedro (Nov 14, 2017)

eddy current said:


> How exciting that work must be......NOT!
> 
> Most of my experience was on a service van but I’ve been on big commercial jobs that felt like an assembly line. I always asked to do something different to keep from going crazy. Not my cup of tea.


Never did service not for me. I never made up the prefab panels either. Usually it will be a few older guys with a younger guy. I have wired units using prefabbed panels made up and to be honest its actually a blast if you have the right people. Did it for 6 months straight, It was a nice break from doing larger pipe work. Used to love doing that and was pretty good at it also but my body took a beating. Did other things in our field for a few years but am back doing large pipe work and the aches are back and my carpal tunnel from doing rigid is back. When I am done doing that I will be wiring units using the prefab method. Actually looking forward to it


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

*Interested in a Leviton Panel?*

The email they sent me:

Spragis, Rob <[email protected]>
14 Feb (1 day ago)

At this time, Leviton has only announced the new Leviton Loadcenter but it is not available just yet… Coming later in Q1 of this year! Please use this link for more product information and PDF’s: 

https://www.leviton.com/standalone/LoadCenter/index.html

After we launch the product you can reach out to your local Leviton representative for more information.

If you do not have a local Leviton Sales Representative, please reach out to me via email or phone at *215-651-9700* Thank you again and we look forward to introducing you to the product!

Rob Spragis
Business Development Manager
C: 215.651.9700
Leviton Manufacturing Co., Inc.
201 North Service Road., Melville, NY 11747
www.leviton.com | [email protected]

Stay Connected with Leviton Mobile Apps: www.leviton.com/apps


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## Max C. (Sep 29, 2016)

Does anybody else get the impression that these Leviton panels will be regarded as the electrical version of "My First Sony"  Jokes aside, thanks for the update, Mech! It will be legitimately fascinating to see how this turns out.


Navyguy said:


> So I heard this today, that T&B / ABB are now making panels too...
> 
> Here is the link...
> 
> ...


I wonder if this is at all related to their acquisition of GE Industrial...


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Max C. said:


> Does anybody else get the impression that these Leviton panels will be regarded as the electrical version of "My First Sony"  Jokes aside, thanks for the update, Mech! It will be legitimately fascinating to see how this turns out.I wonder if this is at all related to their acquisition of GE Industrial...


You're more than welcome.

I'd say that the acquisition is more than a likely possibility.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Bird dog said:


> Reminds me of Square D Trilliant panels which were a flash in the pan.


No, they were ****ing awesome. Still one of the best ideas ever.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

bostonPedro said:


> Union electricians. It saves money because its in a controlled environment. Basically like working in a factory so to speak so its effeicient


Here the workers were directed by an "A" journeyman but the prefab crews were all apprentices or trainees, (a special class designed to bring minorities into the local that could not pass a test)


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

I'm glad leviton is making panel boxes, putting pressure on established manufacturers to quit making AFCI's, bribing NEC code panel to remove from code, and sending every licensed electrician in America a check for $10,000:vs_smirk:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

The better electrician like you and me get $15,000


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## StriickeN (Sep 11, 2017)

They look like a little too much for a panel, I wonder how these will turn out


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

Where does the panel schedule go?


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## mdimillo (Dec 30, 2017)

I've had nothing but issues with Leviton, I hope this is a giant flop and they end up abandoning the product.

+1 on the cost of Arc Faults. In my experience up in Canada, Siemens has the cheapest ones. $47.50 vs. $69 I pay for Square D. Screw that.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

bostonPedro said:


> Union electricians. It saves money because its in a controlled environment. Basically like working in a factory so to speak so its effeicient


FYI: the Workman's Comp insurance rate for such employees is drastically lower than for us field troops.

Yes, it's night and day.

Further, it's a snap for air-powered tools... and hydraulics... to be ready to hand.

The talent level (required) also collapses.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

eddy current said:


> To me it seems like it would take longer than wire on reels. Lacing the panel is done last and doesn’t take long enough to validate pre fab IMO.
> 
> Interesting though and I would like to see it done


ALL of the Big Boys have been following Boston's scheme -- going back almost 20-years around here.

Here that also means that the cable is always MC -- never Romex.

(The buildings are too tall for Romex... and that's not their market niche.)


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I've seen a lot of those prefab assemblies for receptacles and wonder how much of that is being used, from plug in receptacles to made up boxes with supports that set the height. Sure it reduces labor, but how to do you figure the tipping point when it makes you the most money, or is it that your forced to price it as such because of the small time frame you have to complete the rough and finish?


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

telsa said:


> (The buildings are too tall for Romex...


too tall? didn't that change?


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## bostonPedro (Nov 14, 2017)

telsa said:


> ALL of the Big Boys have been following Boston's scheme -- going back almost 20-years around here.
> 
> Here that also means that the cable is always MC -- never Romex.
> 
> (The buildings are too tall for Romex... and that's not their market niche.)



The Romex started sometime in the late 80's or early 90's cant remember exactly but before then all wiring was done in MC in high rise residential towers. It was a grey area in the code about its legal if it doesn't leave the floor back in buildings over 3 stories might have been 4 it was decades ago so not positive so then a company here went all out against authorities to make their case as they won a bid based on using Romex...they essentially won and ever since Romex has been used in high rise residential construction in type 5 around here. You just cant jump floor to floor using Romex ie for public hall lighting


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

telsa said:


> ALL of the Big Boys have been following Boston's scheme -- going back almost 20-years around here.
> 
> Here that also means that the cable is always MC -- never Romex.
> 
> (The buildings are too tall for Romex... and that's not their market niche.)


Building height is not necessarily an issue it is the construction type. Most tall building would be of the type that won't allow nm. I just wanted to clarify because it used to be that nm wasn't allowed in building over 3 stories but that is not true anymore


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## Magnettica_2 (Jun 28, 2011)

Junk, I think it's junk.


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## Max C. (Sep 29, 2016)

Magnettica_2 said:


> Junk, I think it's junk.[/QUOTE]If its anything like Leviton's self-testing GFCIs...you get the idea!


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

I do like the white, and the clear cover. I'd give it a shot.


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## Max C. (Sep 29, 2016)

I figured it would probably be best to post this here instead of creating a new thread...

These have officially hit the shelves at the Big Orange's warehouse up here in Canada. Oddly enough, they don't appear to be available down south. Also, everything is online-only as of right now:

https://www.homedepot.ca/en/home/se...ials%2Fl2-electrical%2Fl3-breakerpanelsfuses#


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Max C. said:


> I figured it would probably be best to post this here instead of creating a new thread...
> 
> These have officially hit the shelves at the Big Orange's warehouse up here in Canada. Oddly enough, they don't appear to be available down south. Also, everything is online-only as of right now:
> 
> https://www.homedepot.ca/en/home/se...ials%2Fl2-electrical%2Fl3-breakerpanelsfuses#



Interesting. Too bad they are available on line only. I would like to actually see one. 

I don't see a divider between the service conductors and the rest of the panel? In the photos they also show branch circuit wiring running through the service area.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

I like them, we'll see what the prices are like in the US...


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

nrp3 said:


> I wonder what made them step into this field?



Probably figured, hey if all these other schmucks can do it.... 




eddy current said:


> Does anyone use plug in breakers for commercial?



Sometimes I have in the past, especially if the place was a **** hole, no sense in putting in a panel worth more then the property :vs_laugh:


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Is this trash on the market yet?


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## JoeSparky (Mar 25, 2010)

MTW said:


> Is this trash on the market yet?


We all know you won't be installing them till you find them at orange with a price ending on .03 :biggrin:


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

JoeSparky said:


> We all know you won't be installing them till you find them at orange with a price ending on .03 :biggrin:


Obviously.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

JoeSparky said:


> We all know you won't be installing them till you find them at orange with a price ending on .03 :biggrin:



And a yellow tag.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

I still have the jar of 300 red gorilla wire nuts that I got for $5. Worst score ever.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

LOL.....






I only got a box of those things, not a whole jug


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

Nice.

We needed another set of breakers to carry around for service work :smile:


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

220/221 said:


> Nice.
> 
> We needed another set of breakers to carry around for service work :smile:


You need a bigger truck?


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## Max C. (Sep 29, 2016)

eddy current said:


> I don't see a divider between the service conductors and the rest of the panel? In the photos they also show branch circuit wiring running through the service area.


My guess is that the pictures online depict American models. Either that, or the Canadian version is identical, except there is an extra divider packed inside the box...


eddy current said:


> Does anyone use plug in breakers for commercial?





Jlarson said:


> Sometimes I have in the past, especially if the place was a **** hole, no sense in putting in a panel worth more then the property :vs_laugh:


Maybe its just a BC-thing, however plug-on panels outside of residential are not a rarity in these parts. Typically, bolt-on is reserved for older and/or particularly high-spec work. I wish Commander's two bolt-on series were still produced today!


MechanicalDVR said:


> You need a bigger truck?


20-foot utility trailer to the rescue


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## farlsincharge (Dec 31, 2010)

Max C. said:


> I figured it would probably be best to post this here instead of creating a new thread...
> 
> These have officially *hit the shelves* at the Big Orange's warehouse up here in Canada. Oddly enough, they don't appear to be available down south. Also, everything is online-only as of right now:
> 
> https://www.homedepot.ca/en/home/se...ials%2Fl2-electrical%2Fl3-breakerpanelsfuses#


And with those prices, that's where they will stay.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I'd say so, while there may be some advantages, you aren't likely to sell many at those rates, even sold as a premium solution.


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## sparkiez (Aug 1, 2015)

One thing that has not been mentioned here, and that make me hesitant on this panel, is that their breakers have a lifespan, and will no longer reset after that life span and must be replaced. I can't remember if this is just the AFCI/GFCI or all. Because of that, I would not want to install this panel.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

What is the stated lifespan?


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

This Leviton panel is DOA. There is absolutely no chance this will be successful. I will never use it.


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## Max C. (Sep 29, 2016)

I actually found a real-life video showing one of these things up-close:


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## sparky1950 (Dec 5, 2007)

Does anyone remember the Square D Trilliant Panel? Lasted long enough to install in a couple of houses. I still have some of those breakers.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

sparky1950 said:


> Does anyone remember the Square D Trilliant Panel? Lasted long enough to install in a couple of houses. I still have some of those breakers.


I loved those baby's. I bet I put in hundreds of them. Keep those breakers. I sell them for $75 a piece.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Max C. said:


> I actually found a real-life video showing one of these things up-close:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwbrNkW9LcI


So far I don’t like the panel. 

In the video He mentions looking at it with an IR camera under loa but doesn’t do it. Is there another video?


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I like the terminations for neutral and hots, but fear its not going to sell and be obsolete quickly.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

nrp3 said:


> I like the terminations for neutral and hots, but fear its not going to sell and be obsolete quickly.


I've said multiple times already that it's DOA. I'll reaffirm that.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

nrp3 said:


> I like the terminations for neutral and hots, but fear its not going to sell and be obsolete quickly.


See if Leviton is reading this, they ought to make a public assurance that the breakers will be in production and readily available at a non-gouging pricefor 20 years after the panels go out of production. That would help get over people's hesitation, probably just a necessary step to break into the panel market at this point.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I haven't found out who locally is selling these yet. Maybe Rexel since they carry Leviton devices, not sure. I would imagine they'll have it at their annual trade show this fall. Like to see it regardless.


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