# Subpanel ?



## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

darcy said:


> Does a main panel fed from a fused disconnect right beside it, still have to be wired as a subpanel. The panel and disconnect are both in the basement about 4 feet from meter.
> tx for any and all help.


It should be.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

there can only be one


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## Bulldog1 (Oct 21, 2011)

The disconnect is where you bond. The panel becomes a sub panel.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

For instance, I have a whole-house generator install coming up. 

New service-rated 200 amp disconnect's going in to accommodate the ATS so all of the grounds and neutrals have to be isolated in what was once the main breaker panel.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

darcy said:


> Does a main panel fed from a fused disconnect right beside it, still have to be wired as a subpanel. The panel and disconnect are both in the basement about 4 feet from meter.
> tx for any and all help.


 
A main panel fed from a fused disconnect would not meet the definition of a service, would it?


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## Bulldog1 (Oct 21, 2011)

Magnettica said:


> For instance, I have a whole-house generator install coming up.
> 
> New service-rated 200 amp disconnect's going in to accommodate the ATS so all of the grounds and neutrals have to be isolated in what was once the main breaker panel.



Why not use a service rated transfer switch and eliminate the disconnect?


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

mcclary's electrical said:


> A main panel fed from a fused disconnect would not meet the definition of a service, would it?


What's the definition of a service?


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## Wireman191 (Aug 28, 2011)

The way I aways think of it is if there is an xformer feeding the panel it is main, anything else is sub.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

*Service.* The conductors and equipment for delivering electric
energy from the serving utility to the wiring system of
the premises served.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> What's the definition of a service?


 

The conductors and equipment for delivering electricity from the serving utility to the wiring system of the premise served




AKA, if it doesn't have BOTH, POCO and our side wiring , it's not a service.


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## darcy (Jun 18, 2009)

So the answer is yes. One other quick question on this. Who ever wire this panel to begin with did isolate the neutrals from the grounds, by adding a ground bar. But they have gone and tied the neutral bar to the water pipe with a number 8 solid ground. Should i move this to the ground bar.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

darcy said:


> So the answer is yes. One other quick question on this. Who ever wire this panel to begin with did isolate the neutrals from the grounds, by adding a ground bar. But they have gone and tied the neutral bar to the water pipe with a number 8 solid ground. Should i move this to the ground bar.


From your fused mains you're supposed to have a 4-wire set up to your panel. 2 hots, a neutral, and a ground. Your "water pipe" ground (commonly referred to as a grounding electrode conductor), should be bonded to the neutral conductor in the fused main enclosure. 

Did you get all that?


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## darcy (Jun 18, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> From your fused mains you're supposed to have a 4-wire set up to your panel. 2 hots, a neutral, and a ground. Your "water pipe" ground (commonly referred to as a grounding electrode conductor), should be bonded to the neutral conductor in the fused main enclosure.
> 
> Did you get all that?


Yes thank you for your help. The panel is fed from fused disconnect with 4-wire ser cable. I will remove the # 8 ground from the neutral bar in panel and bond it to the neutral in the fused disconnect.
Your help is Much appreciated


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

darcy said:


> Yes thank you for your help. The panel is fed from fused disconnect with 4-wire ser cable. I will remove the # 8 ground from the neutral bar in panel and bond it to the neutral in the fused disconnect.
> Your help is Much appreciated


What size service? That #8 could be too small.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

darcy said:


> Yes thank you for your help. The panel is fed from fused disconnect with 4-wire ser cable. I will remove the # 8 ground from the neutral bar in panel and bond it to the neutral in the fused disconnect.
> Your help is Much appreciated


Happy to help my friend. :thumbsup:


Wait till you go take your licensing exam. They will put you through the ringer with grounding questions.

Oh don't forget the "water ground" has to be continuous so you may have to run a new one. #8 copper is good for 100 amp but requires to be protected from physical damage. I usually run #6 to get around this requirement.


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## darcy (Jun 18, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> What size service? That #8 could be too small.


100 amp service


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

darcy said:


> 100 amp service


 
You sure have posted alot since 2009:laughing:


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## darcy (Jun 18, 2009)

After thinking about removing the the #8 copper attached to water pipe and bonding it to the neutral in the fused disconnect, comes the problem of two dissimilar metals under one lug. Hmmmm.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

darcy said:


> After thinking about removing the the #8 copper attached to water pipe and bonding it to the neutral in the fused disconnect, comes the problem of two dissimilar metals under one lug. Hmmmm.


 

you can't put it in the same lug.


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## Bulldog1 (Oct 21, 2011)

darcy said:


> After thinking about removing the the #8 copper attached to water pipe and bonding it to the neutral in the fused disconnect, comes the problem of two dissimilar metals under one lug. Hmmmm.


Why would you put it under the same lug? Install a double lug or attach to the neutral bar.


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## darcy (Jun 18, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> You sure have posted alot since 2009:laughing:


I have not been allowed to work. My wife was being sponsored for an employment based green card, and until that was finalized i have not been able to work. So i was a stay at home dad raising my children.


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## Bulldog1 (Oct 21, 2011)

mcclary's electrical said:


> you can't put it in the same lug.



It would be better to double lug it than what is existing. :blink: :laughing:


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## darcy (Jun 18, 2009)

Bulldog1 said:


> Why would you put it under the same lug? Install a double lug or attach to the neutral bar.


Yes i will install double lug.. No neutral bar in disconnect.
Tx


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

darcy said:


> I have not been allowed to work. My wife was being sponsored for an employment based green card, and until that was finalized i have not been able to work. So i was a stay at home dad raising my children.


 
Cool:thumbup: I pay 1000 bucks a month for childcare.


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## darcy (Jun 18, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Cool:thumbup: I pay 1000 bucks a month for childcare.


Is that for two children. Thats cheap. Now that im working again, child care is about 1700 for two per month.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

darcy said:


> Is that for two children. Thats cheap. Now that im working again, child care is about 1700 for two per month.


 

Yeah, two kids. 125 a piece per week at preschool. My oldest is in college. A little gap there.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

The fused main needs to contain a MBJ (main bonding jumper) that bonds the neutral to the enclosure. Once you have done this you can drill a hole in the bottom of the enclosure and install a lug by using a nut and bolt. Btw, you cannot use a sheet metal screw.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> The fused main needs to contain a MBJ (main bonding jumper) that bonds the neutral to the enclosure. Once you have done this you can drill a hole in the bottom of the enclosure and install a lug by using a nut and bolt. Btw, you cannot use a sheet metal screw.


 

and remove the paint:thumbsup:


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## darcy (Jun 18, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> The fused main needs to contain a MBJ (main bonding jumper) that bonds the neutral to the enclosure. Once you have done this you can drill a hole in the bottom of the enclosure and install a lug by using a nut and bolt. Btw, you cannot use a sheet metal screw.


Hmm. i will have to look and make sure the neutral in the fused disconnect is bonded to the enclosure. 
Tx
Man all this for being called to replace a worn out breaker.


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## darcy (Jun 18, 2009)

darcy said:


> Hmm. i will have to look and make sure the neutral in the fused disconnect is bonded to the enclosure.
> Tx
> Man all this for being called to replace a worn out breaker.


Actually now that i think about it, the neutral is installed in a lug that is already factory screwed to disconnect body.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

darcy said:


> Hmm. i will have to look and make sure the neutral in the fused disconnect is bonded to the enclosure.
> Tx
> Man all this for being called to replace a worn out breaker.


That's service work for you. Go to change a light bulb and wind up rewiring all the kitchen recessed lights because they're non-IC rated and a potential fire hazard. What a way to make a living.


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