# Do You Bury Splices?



## MTW

I have a few times when I had no other choice. :whistling2:


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## Southeast Power

Government job. Buried 3' down in mud.
Gotta be at least a dozen of them down there.
Notice how deep his boot is buried.. :devil3:


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## cl2sparky

I have buried spices with the use of heat shrink at one of the local KOA's. Never had any issues. 

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## macmikeman

I did some buried splices as a repair on a temp pole that got whacked by an excavator few months back. Only these weren't Tyco, they were Mike o. In line splices from Home Depot covered with the usual 33 tape, rubber tape, and a plastic bag taped around individual , and then the whole thing. ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, and then the whole thing encased in around 3 bags of quickcrete and backfilled from 24" depth , under my watch. Heco had already been scheduled to heat up the permanent power but I don't like taking chances. It rains here , not uncommon to get ten to twenty inches in a few hours. Didn't want electric puddles. 

It's all history now.


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## zac

MTW said:


> I have a few times when I had no other choice. :whistling2:


What do you mean by no other choice? 


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## flyboy

MTW said:


> I have a few times when I had no other choice. :whistling2:


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## zac

I will have customers beg for me to bury a splice instead of drywall damage or a junction box, preferably flush inside a cabinet. Won't do it. 

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## flyboy

zac said:


> What do you mean by no other choice?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Translation: "I was too lazy to do it the right way because after all, I'm a hack."


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## flyboy

zac said:


> I will have customers beg for me to bury a splice instead of drywall damage or a junction box, preferably flush with a cabinet. Won't do it.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


That's because you're a real electrician who takes pride in his work. Not a hack like some people we know. :vs_cool:


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## zac

flyboy said:


> That's because you're a real electrician who takes pride in his work. Not a hack like some people we know. :vs_cool:


He's from I believe the Boston area. Those guys have always been cheaters... from Belicheck back to the Boston tea party (tax cheaters! )

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## flyboy

zac said:


> He's from I believe the Boston area. Those guys have always been cheaters... from Belicheck back to the Boston tea party (tax cheaters! )
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Don't forget goldenboys "defalategate".


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## HackWork

Anytime I feel like it, without a second thought. My buried splices are as good as the uncut cable. 

Anyone who rips apart their customer’s home to avoid having an accessibility issue, when that is not what the code it is supposed to be about, is providing a great disservice to their customer.


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## zac

HackWork said:


> Anytime I feel like it, without a second thought. My buried splices are as good as the uncut cable.
> 
> Anyone who rips apart their customer’s home to avoid having an accessibility issue, when that is not what the code it is supposed to be about, is providing a great disservice to their customer.


It's not that easy. You may make a bullet proof splice and I figure that's in your best interest. For me trouble shooting, I need to know where all splices are. It's hard enough when I have to move furniture etc to get to a known splice. Having to deal with splices that are buried is ruining this trade. 

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## HackWork

zac said:


> It's not that easy. You may make a bullet proof splice and I figure that's in your best interest. For me trouble shooting, I need to know where all splices are. It's hard enough when I have to move furniture etc to get to a known splice. Having to deal with splices that are buried is ruining this trade.


 I am not talking about flying splices that a handyman made up with taped on wirenuts. I’m talking about excellent splices that will never come undone. 

In the end, it’s no worse than a staple that was hammered in too hard which happens all too often.

The homeowner gets to make the choice. The national electrical code is not a troubleshooting manual.


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## cl2sparky

zac said:


> It's not that easy. You may make a bullet proof splice and I figure that's in your best interest. For me trouble shooting, I need to know where all splices are. It's hard enough when I have to move furniture etc to get to a known splice. Having to deal with splices that are buried is ruining this trade.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


I'm talking about underground splices only. I will not make splices in a home or building without a junction box, period!!!

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## HackWork

cl2sparky said:


> I'm talking about underground splices only. I will not make splices in a home or building without a junction box, period!!!


 Me either.


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## B-Nabs

HackWork said:


> Anytime I feel like it, without a second thought. My buried splices are as good as the uncut cable.
> 
> Anyone who rips apart their customer’s home to avoid having an accessibility issue, when that is not what the code it is supposed to be about, is providing a great disservice to their customer.


No, allowing your customers to steamroll proper trade practice because of aesthetics is a disservice. To them, to the installation, and to the trade. 

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


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## HackWork

B-Nabs said:


> No, allowing your customers to steamroll proper trade practice because of aesthetics is a disservice. To them, to the installation, and to the trade.


Your opinion of “proper trade practices” is inconsequential to my customer. To everyone, actually. 

If the government in a certain area allowed boxed splices to be inaccessible and covered over, then all of a sudden it would be OK? :vs_laugh:


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## Southeast Power

I did residential service for 10 years straight and was never compelled to bury a splice in a wall.
It was way before these came out:








I have buried a couple of them.


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## flyboy

I've done repairs to direct buried service laterals several times over the years. One of them was in a home I owned back in the mid 90's. The owner is a friend and customer so I know it's still good.

All kidding aside, properly spliced connections made by an electrician are perfectly acceptable as far as I'm concerned. The Electricians Handbook even has a section for properly do it. 

There have been unique circumstances where I've done it in both dwelling units and commercial spaces where it wasn't practical to do anything else.


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## 99cents

Never. There’s always a way.


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## flyboy

99cents said:


> Never. There’s always a way.


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## HackWork

It’s true that there is always a way. Sometimes that way is extremely expensive and destructive. 

The question is if you are working for your customer or for the government and the private corporations who make the code and set the “proper trade practices”?


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## flyboy

We had a thread about this not too long ago.

https://www.electriciantalk.com/f2/tyco-romex-splice-kit-222065/


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## 99cents

HackWork said:


> It’s true that there is always a way. Sometimes that way is extremely expensive and destructive.
> 
> The question is if you are working for your customer or for the government and the private corporations who make the code and set the “proper trade practices”?


The customer always has the option to hire someone to do it wrong. I do it right.

We are in a regulated trade. I don’t pick and choose rules randomly.


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## 99cents

Last week I had splices in a buried JB blow apart under heavy load. There was evidence of water damage (maybe a leaky dishwasher above it).

Anybody who does resto work knows how evil dripping water can be. If your buried JB fills up with water, then what?


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## HackWork

99cents said:


> The customer always has the option to hire someone to do it wrong. I do it right.
> 
> We are in a regulated trade. I don’t pick and choose rules randomly.


I don’t follow other people’s rules just to make them money. I work for the customer.


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## HackWork

99cents said:


> Last week I had splices in a buried JB blow apart under heavy load. There was evidence of water damage (maybe a leaky dishwasher above it).
> 
> Anybody who does resto work knows how evil dripping water can be. If your buried JB fills up with water, then what?


Then they repair it when they repair the water damage. 

It’s not our job to install everything to cover every possible contingency.


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## 99cents

HackWork said:


> Then they repair it when they repair the water damage.
> 
> It’s not our job to install everything to cover every possible contingency.


This was water damage that could have occurred five years ago. The breaker didn’t trip, the weakened splices blew apart under overload.

Just do it right. Up your game.


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## splatz

> Do You Bury Splices?


Let me think about it. 

Ick. No, I do not. I need a shower now.


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## HackWork

99cents said:


> This was water damage that could have occurred five years ago. The breaker didn’t trip, the weakened splices blew apart under overload.
> 
> Just do it right. Up your game.


 The likelihood of that happening to one of those splices that I have buried is pretty much nonexistent. There’s a million other “what if’s” that we can worry about- but don’t.


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## 99cents

HackWork said:


> I don’t follow other people’s rules just to make them money. I work for the customer.


The customer trusts you to do it right and pays you to do it wrong. Sorry, I have a conscience.


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## 99cents

HackWork said:


> The likelihood of that happening to one of those splices that I have buried is pretty much nonexistent. There’s a million other “what if’s” that we can worry about- but don’t.


You’re probably right. When it comes to moving fixtures for grandma, you’re the authority. I don’t do odd jobs so this conversation is out of my league.


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## CoolWill

I bury my enemies.


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## Southeast Power

This is why the OP asked about underground. They are outdoor and always wet.
No what ifs


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## HackWork

99cents said:


> The customer trusts you to do it right and pays you to do it wrong. Sorry, I have a conscience.


The customer gets what they want, that is my job.

A while back we got rid of our bathtub and replaced it with a stall shower. The plumber didn’t want to do it the easy way because he said it was against code to use the existing one and a half inch pipe for a shower drain. Apparently it’s OK to use that for a tub, but a stall shower needs 2 inch pipe, and installing that would require a couple thousand dollars of extra work.

In my research, I found that Canada doesn’t have that requirement. So tell me, why would I do all that extra work just to appease the rules in the area that I am in? Either it works or it doesn’t, man-made geographical lines don’t change that.

If I could bury a splice in one jurisdiction, you can’t articulate a reasonable argument why I can’t do it in another. If I am allowed to use an expensive piece of garbage to bury splices, there’s no reason why I can’t bury one that I made up much better.


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## HackWork

Southeast Power said:


> This is why the OP asked about underground. They are outdoor and always wet.
> No what ifs


He wasn’t talking about underground.


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## HackWork

99cents said:


> You’re probably right. When it comes to moving fixtures for grandma, you’re the authority. I don’t do odd jobs so this conversation is out of my league.


Pretty much everything we discuss here is out of your league.


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## 99cents

HackWork said:


> The customer gets what they want, that is my job.
> 
> A while back we got rid of our bathtub and replaced it with a stall shower. The plumber didn’t want to do it the easy way because he said it was against code to use the existing one and a half inch pipe for a shower drain. Apparently it’s OK to use that for a tub, but a stall shower needs 2 inch pipe, and installing that would require a couple thousand dollars of extra work.
> 
> In my research, I found that Canada doesn’t have that requirement. So tell me, why would I do all that extra work just to appease the rules in the area that I am in? Either it works or it doesn’t, man-made geographical lines don’t change that.
> 
> If I could bury a splice in one jurisdiction, you can’t articulate a reasonable argument why I can’t do it in another. If I am allowed to use an expensive piece of garbage to bury splices, there’s no reason why I can’t bury one that I made up much better.


I don’t know anything about plumbing, I’m just giving you a scenario where a buried JB is a bad idea. Water follows cable. That’s why it often collects in fixture boxes. It can also collect in a buried JB.


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## HackWork

99cents said:


> I don’t know anything about plumbing, I’m just giving you a scenario where a buried JB is a bad idea. Water follows cable. That’s why it often collects in fixture boxes. It can also collect in a buried JB.


Then have the cables run underneath as a drip loop. Your argument is pathetic.


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## CoolWill

If you use Scotchkote and make a map, burying splices is fine.


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## 99cents

HackWork said:


> Then have the cables run underneath as a drip loop. Your argument is pathetic.


Except I’m not arguing.


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## Southeast Power

HackWork said:


> He wasn’t talking about underground.


This is turning into a Tesla level segue. :sad:
What is the history of Red Chinese splicing materials. lain:


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## HackWork

Southeast Power said:


> This is turning into a Tesla level segue. :sad:
> What is the history of Red Chinese splicing materials. lain:


Barry Seotoro invented them, I think.


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## B-Nabs

HackWork said:


> The customer gets what they want, that is my job.
> 
> 
> 
> A while back we got rid of our bathtub and replaced it with a stall shower. The plumber didn’t want to do it the easy way because he said it was against code to use the existing one and a half inch pipe for a shower drain. Apparently it’s OK to use that for a tub, but a stall shower needs 2 inch pipe, and installing that would require a couple thousand dollars of extra work.
> 
> 
> 
> In my research, I found that Canada doesn’t have that requirement. So tell me, why would I do all that extra work just to appease the rules in the area that I am in? Either it works or it doesn’t, man-made geographical lines don’t change that.
> 
> 
> 
> If I could bury a splice in one jurisdiction, you can’t articulate a reasonable argument why I can’t do it in another. If I am allowed to use an expensive piece of garbage to bury splices, there’s no reason why I can’t bury one that I made up much better.


In what jurisdiction is it ok to bury a splice?

I'm not opposed to burying splices because it's against code, I'm opposed to it because it's a bad idea and it's poor practice. Also this is not a case where the code is being used as a design manual, it is a safety issue whether you choose to accept that or not.

You work for the customer, yes, but as a professional you are expected to do the work to a certain level, as well as in compliance with a set of established standards. The fact that you allow your customer's "feels" (to use a favourite term of yours) to dictate which safety standards you ignore earns you your username.

In this case not following code doesn't make you a patriot or a freedom fighter or whatever boring cliché it is you think you are. It makes you a hack, Hack. 

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


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## daveEM

Back in '72 when I was a second year...

Journeyman would get a boom-proof oct box whilst I was digging down to find the broken wires. He would do the splice and fill the box with melted paraffin wax.


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## HackWork

B-Nabs said:


> In what jurisdiction is it ok to bury a splice?


 Whatever one has that amendment. As well as all of them that allow the Tyco piece of garbage that started this.



> I'm not opposed to burying splices because it's against code, I'm opposed to it because it's a bad idea and it's poor practice. Also this is not a case where the code is being used as a design manual, it is a safety issue whether you choose to accept that or not.


 It is most certainly a design issue. 



> You work for the customer, yes, but as a professional you are expected to do the work to a certain level,


 And I do. The customer and I determine that level.



> as well as in compliance with a set of established standards.


Neither one of us care much about those standards, at least not when they are not about safety. 



> The fact that you allow your customer's "feels" (to use a favourite term of yours) to dictate which safety standards you ignore earns you your username.


 This is silly, you are making no sense. 



> In this case not following code doesn't make you a patriot or a freedom fighter or whatever boring cliché it is you think you are.


 You just made that up in your mind. I do not pretend to be any of those things. I am just a contractor who is out to serve my customers. The difference is simply that I am not blinded by corporate greed and corruption as well as nanny-state bologna.


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## 99cents

B-Nabs said:


> In what jurisdiction is it ok to bury a splice?
> 
> I'm not opposed to burying splices because it's against code, I'm opposed to it because it's a bad idea and it's poor practice. Also this is not a case where the code is being used as a design manual, it is a safety issue whether you choose to accept that or not.
> 
> You work for the customer, yes, but as a professional you are expected to do the work to a certain level, as well as in compliance with a set of established standards. The fact that you allow your customer's "feels" (to use a favourite term of yours) to dictate which safety standards you ignore earns you your username.
> 
> In this case not following code doesn't make you a patriot or a freedom fighter or whatever boring cliché it is you think you are. It makes you a hack, Hack.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


I guess low standards are okay when you make a living with a plastic tray and a step stool.


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## HackWork

99cents said:


> I guess low standards are okay when you make a living with a plastic tray and a step stool.


It's a freakin awesome tray.


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## 99cents

HackWork said:


> You just made that up in your mind. I do not pretend to be any of those things. I am just a contractor who is out to serve my customers. The difference is simply that I am not blinded by corporate greed and corruption as well as nanny-state bologna.


Except you practise low level corporate greed. You do small, hit and run jobs, write your own rules and take their money. Don’t give me this “customer service” BS.


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## B-Nabs

HackWork said:


> ...the Tyco piece of garbage that started this.


I wouldn't use one of those either.



> You just made that up in your mind. I do not pretend to be any of those things. I am just a contractor who is out to serve my customers. The difference is simply that I am not blinded by corporate greed and corruption as well as *nanny-state bologna.*


I was being hyperbolic, riffing on your statement I've bolded, which is a typical trope of yours, and smells the same as any other rugged individualist nonsense I've heard here and elsewhere. As I've already said, buried splices are a safety issue, whether you choose to accept that or not. To live in a properly functioning (and safe) society, each of us doesn't get to pick and choose which rules we follow because "it's ok, I do it better". Any yokel with just enough skill to be dangerous and a superiority complex can say that.

Also, how does properly making splices accessible contribute to corporate greed? This isn't AFCIs dude, you can hang your tinfoil hat on the tree by the door. 


Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


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## B-Nabs

HackWork said:


> It's a freakin awesome tray.


I am with you there, I too use a tray sometimes. 

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


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## sbrn33

zac said:


> The Tyco inline splice kit has me wondering how many of you bury a splice that's not accessible? I will splice a box next to a can if need be and other little tricks but don't have the conscience to bury a splice.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


I am just like you. There is always a way if they want one buried just walk away.


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## sbrn33

There are very dew times you can't put an access cover or return air grill on.


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## MechanicalDVR

I don't like surprises with electrical work, like buried splices for instance.

Those TYCO connectors are total crap, just an example of how wrong some approvals can be.


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## HackWork

99cents said:


> Except you practise low level corporate greed. You do small, hit and run jobs, write your own rules and take their money. Don’t give me this “customer service” BS.


This isn’t true at all. My customers know exactly what I do and are extremely happy with my service. I don’t sweep anything under the rug, I get approval from them.


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## emtnut

question was 'do you bury' splices.

Answer ... https://www.3mcanada.ca/3M/en_CA/company-ca/search/?Ntt=splice+kit
:biggrin:

If a splice hidden in a wall is in a box, it's no more 'unsafe' than one 'not hidden'
Eventually though, there is a chance it will fail ... And someone will be cursing you :vs_mad:
Good chance you will be long gone thou (pushin daises )


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## macmikeman

Done properly the Tyco ones should be fine, but lets face it, it won't be electricians buying and using them , it's gonna be those handy dandy guys , and they are going to be messing things up pretty badly just like how they do everything else electrical they try. I went thru a whole apartment full of counter- clockwise terminations on receptacles and switches recently. They botched every single one. And they couldn't get any of the existing three ways working properly either. I'm not expecting any better with them burying a splice in a kit. But I do know it's only a matter of time till I start having to find and repair them.


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## MechanicalDVR

I had only seen those Tyco POS connectors in a doublewide up north like twice.

But since I have been down here I have seen many of them that have failed in prefab or modular homes that connecting the assembled sections.

The places I have seen them in are from the 1990's vintage tops.



Side note: all the ones I have found an issue with lost the neutral.


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## 99cents

HackWork said:


> This isn’t true at all. My customers know exactly what I do and are extremely happy with my service. I don’t sweep anything under the rug, I get approval from them.


If you want validation for crappy work, you came to the wrong place. An HO is the last person you should get approval from.

Either you’re trolling or a very poor tradesman, maybe both.


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## HackWork

99cents said:


> If you want validation for crappy work, you came to the wrong place.


 You have to be insane to think that I want validation from you. 

My work speaks for itself, so do my reviews, my repeat work, and my referrals.


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## 99cents

HackWork said:


> You have to be insane to think that I want validation from you.
> 
> My work speaks for itself, so do my reviews, my repeat work, and my referrals.


Because your customers don’t know any better.


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## HackWork

99cents said:


> Because your customers don’t know any better.


 Sure they do. Especially after both options were explained to them.


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## 99cents

HackWork said:


> Sure they do. Especially after both options were explained to them.


You’re just taking advantage of your customer’s ignorance. Oh well, your conscience, not mine.


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## HackWork

@;


99cents said:


> You’re just taking advantage of your customer’s ignorance. Oh well, your conscience, not mine.


 Nope, someone who causes lots of destruction in a customers house and makes them pay thousands of dollars for it is the one who is taking advantage. I am my customer’s biggest advocate, that’s why they love me so much. That’s why I don’t have to do crappy renovation work for general contractors.


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## MechanicalDVR

HackWork said:


> Sure they do. *Especially after both options were explained to them.*


1. Option A: I install that splice that will never be a problem as we discussed and install those new fans you bought for $1257.95

2. Option B: I have my guys come in and rip out that wall and you have it repaired by others after they install the proper wiring you need to add the fans and they complete the job for $12,570.91


Yeah boy, even Stevie Wonder can see how that works!


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## 99cents

Guess what I’m doing today? Hanging fixtures for grandma!


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## 99cents

HackWork said:


> @;
> 
> Nope, someone who causes lots of destruction in a customers house and makes them pay thousands of dollars for it is the one who is taking advantage. I am my customer’s biggest advocate, that’s why they love me so much. That’s why I don’t have to do crappy renovation work for general contractors.


If you cause thousands of dollars in destruction, you’re not very good at this. Have you thought of a career change, maybe Walmart greeter?

No, on second thought, that would be a terrible idea...


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## HackWork

99cents said:


> If you cause thousands of dollars in destruction, you’re not very good at this. Have you thought of a career change, maybe Walmart greeter?
> 
> No, on second thought, that would be a terrible idea...


You keep talking silly. You know the truth.


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## Bird dog

99cents said:


> If you cause thousands of dollars in destruction, you’re not very good at this. Have you thought of a career change, maybe Walmart greeter?
> 
> No, on second thought, that would be a terrible idea...


Better than unemployed in Greenland...
Vizzini to Fezzik: And you: friendless, brainless, helpless, hopeless! Do you want me to send you back to where you were? *Unemployed in Greenland!*


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## glen1971

I've buried a few, after someone cheaps out with a Hydro-vac and rips a cable out. When I do, I leave a note on the drawing, with an approximate location of where it is, when it was done, and the product used.. Usually 480 and the 120 volt control cable for the motor has been about it or a 24 vdc control cable or two..
Typically I use:
http://raychemblog.heatshrinksleeves.com/2014/04/splices-of-teck-cable-1000v-15-kv.html


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## MTW

zac said:


> What do you mean by no other choice?


When the budget didn't allow me to tear the house apart to relocate and refeed wires.


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## MTW

Once upon a time we had this wiring method called "knob and tube". It consisted of splices that were soldered and taped then covered up inside the wall. Quite a bit of this knob and tube is still operating 100 years after it was installed, with all those original splices buried in the wall still working fine. The the corporately controlled NEC came along and said that couldn't be done anymore. Yeah, makes sense to me.


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## CoolWill

MTW said:


> Once upon a time in we has this wiring method called "knob and tube". It consisted of splices that were soldered and taped then covered up inside the wall. Quite a bit of this knob and tube is still operating 100 years after it was installed, with all those original splices buried in the wall still working fine. The the corporately controlled NEC came along and said that couldn't be done anymore. Yeah, makes sense to me.


I was think about that too. But, to be fair, those splices were soldered by default. Today, they aren't even required to be twisted before putting a plastic coated spring on them.

I really wouldn't care about burying a bulletproof splice, but I get that the code doesn't take workmanship and mechanical application as a given.


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## MechanicalDVR

CoolWill said:


> I was think about that too. But, to be fair, those splices were soldered by default. Today, they aren't even required to be twisted before putting a plastic coated spring on them.
> 
> I really wouldn't care about burying a bulletproof splice, but I get that the code doesn't take *workmanship and mechanical application* as a given.


Looking at what people do out there 'workmanship' has too many variables!


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## eddy current

These threads are pointless. It’s always the same few hacks trying to convince the rest of us that their handyman quality work is ok. 

Funny how the alternative is always “destruction and thousands of dollars” when really a quick, fished wire takes no time at all, just to try and justify laziness.


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## 99cents

eddy current said:


> These threads are pointless. It’s always the same few hacks trying to convince the rest of us that their handyman quality work is ok.
> 
> Funny how the alternative is always “destruction and thousands of dollars” when really a quick, fished wire takes no time at all, just to try and justify laziness.


He’s just trolling.


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## MTW

flyboy said:


> I've done repairs to direct buried service laterals several times over the years. One of them was in a home I owned back in the mid 90's. The owner is a friend and customer so I know it's still good.
> 
> All kidding aside, properly spliced connections made by an electrician are perfectly acceptable as far as I'm concerned. The Electricians Handbook even has a section for properly do it.
> 
> There have been unique circumstances where I've done it in both dwelling units and commercial spaces where it wasn't practical to do anything else.


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## MTW

99cents said:


> We are in a regulated trade.


By "regulated" you mean regulated by the government. This is your socialism showing again. Are you even capable of taking a dump in the morning without the government's approval?  



> I don’t pick and choose rules randomly.


I don't either, I reject rules that are arbitrary, cater to the lowest common denominator of the trade, or are purposely designed to make manufacturers money.


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## readydave8

I won't bury a splice in a wall (although I did when I was starting out, 40 years ago)

I pick which rules or laws to break, this one I picked not to break

There are a lot of things customers ask me to do that are against code, if I don't think I can defend my work if I get caught, I won't do it

Another common request is generator tie-in without transfer switch. Won't do that either.

Not holier-than-thou, just what's worked for me.


----------



## 99cents

MTW said:


> By "regulated" you mean regulated by the government. This is your socialism showing again. Are you even capable of taking a dump in the morning without the government's approval?
> 
> I don't either, I reject rules that are arbitrary, cater to the lowest common denominator of the trade, or are purposely designed to make manufacturers money.


I don’t take you seriously. Carry on.


----------



## MTW

99cents said:


> I don’t take you seriously. Carry on.


This is the mark of someone who has lost an argument. You can't argue against anything I've said so you just say you don't take me seriously. It's an easy out for you.


----------



## 99cents

MTW said:


> This is the mark of someone who has lost an argument. You can't argue against anything I've said so you just say you don't take me seriously. It's an easy out for you.


Actually, no, I really don’t take you seriously.


----------



## lighterup

readydave8 said:


> I won't bury a splice in a wall (although I did when I was starting out, 40 years ago)
> 
> I pick which rules or laws to break, this one I picked not to break
> 
> There are a lot of things customers ask me to do that are against code, if I don't think I can defend my work if I get caught, I won't do it
> 
> Another common request is generator tie-in without transfer switch. Won't do that either.
> 
> Not holier-than-thou, just what's worked for me.


Has nothing to do with "holier than thou" bro. I'm with you.
Tell me what you want and leave the techniques up to me. 
The minute they start balkin at doing correctly cause they want to
only give ya a shiny nickle and a ham sandwich , that's when they
get to hear my singing voice...." bum-ba-dee-ba...bum-ba-dee-ba...
bum-ba-dee-ba-dee-ba-dee-ba...Happy trailllllls to you...:vs_music:


----------



## lighterup

99cents said:


> Actually, no, I really don’t take you seriously.


avatar looks good...much improvement...very very nice:vs_laugh:


----------



## eddy current

I understand the “stick it to the man” mentality, like with arc fault breakers. Many people believe it’s a requirement strictly brought on by the manufacturers. 
But burying a splice in a wall is not a “stick it to the man” type of violation. It is pure handyman quality electrical work and if you don’t know the difference, then you are a butcher hack handyman!


----------



## zac

MTW said:


> When the budget didn't allow me to tear the house apart to relocate and refeed wires.


So you either take a loss (if you bid it) or if it's their dime tell them you'll have to surface mount it! They'll come around. 



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## MCasey

eddy current said:


> These threads are pointless. It’s always the same few hacks trying to convince the rest of us that their handyman quality work is ok.
> 
> Funny how the alternative is always “destruction and thousands of dollars” when really a quick, fished wire takes no time at all, just to try and justify laziness.


You are spot on here in your first thought. Always the same guys looking for vindication of their lack of effort


----------



## MTW

zac said:


> So you either take a loss (if you bid it) or if it's their dime tell them you'll have to surface mount it! They'll come around.


If it's a living room with wallpaper and crown molding all around and a finished second floor, you better believe I'm burying a splice.


----------



## eddy current

MTW said:


> zac said:
> 
> 
> 
> So you either take a loss (if you bid it) or if it's their dime tell them you'll have to surface mount it! They'll come around.
> 
> 
> 
> If it's a living room with wallpaper and crown molding all around and a finished second floor, you better believe I'm burying a splice.
Click to expand...

Wallpaper? Really?

I would do them a favour by making them get rid of the wallpaper because of the small holes required for a professional to do the job properly. When they call for a professional, they should get a professional job done. Any hack handyman could bury a splice for them.


----------



## MechanicalDVR

MTW said:


> If it's a living room with wallpaper and crown molding all around and a finished second floor, you better believe I'm burying a splice.


How are you burying a splice in a wall that has wallpaper on it? 

How is it you have access to a the cable to splice?

Your description is missing something.


----------



## zac

Missing something alright and it's called integrity! No wonder New England is falling apart!

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## B-Nabs

zac said:


> Missing something alright and it's called integrity! No wonder New England is falling apart!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


OMG I was going to say exactly that haha

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


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## MechanicalDVR

zac said:


> Missing something alright and it's called integrity! No wonder New England is falling apart!


I just don't buy the wallpaper excuse.

It's lame.


----------



## zac

He was just saying that because he was looking at his wall. 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## CoolWill

You coqs better lay off my main squeeze MTW!:vs_mad:


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## HackWork

CoolWill said:


> You coqs better lay off my main squeeze MTW!:vs_mad:


:sad::sad:


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## Going_Commando

Burying splices in walls/ceilings is hack as frig. I burying a splice a couple months ago on a commercial renovation, and feel hack about it, but the space the splice is serving is getting demo'd in a few weeks and the old wiring is getting ripped out. I still feel hack about it. I had no idea it was so prevalent among actual electricians. I guess that's why some people are so taken aback when I tell them burying splices is a code violation. I have done it once in my career, as seen above, and will not be making it a regular activity by any means.


----------



## MechanicalDVR

Going_Commando said:


> Burying splices in walls/ceilings is hack as frig. I burying a splice a couple months ago on a commercial renovation, and feel hack about it, but the space the splice is serving is getting demo'd in a few weeks and the old wiring is getting ripped out. I still feel hack about it. I had no idea it was so prevalent among actual electricians. I guess that's why some people are so taken aback when I tell them burying splices is a code violation. I have done it once in my career, as seen above, and will not be making it a regular activity by any means.


Once you have traced out a wiring problem to a buried splice a couple times it leaves a very bad taste in your mouth and you really don't feel like doing that yourself.

At least that is how I feel about it, not too mention also being a code violation.


----------



## HackWork

MechanicalDVR said:


> Once you have traced out a wiring problem to a buried splice a couple times it leaves a very bad taste in your mouth and you really don't feel like doing that yourself.
> 
> At least that is how I feel about it, not too mention also being a code violation.


Instead of blaming the position of the splice, the blame should go to the quality of it. Those buried splices you found were most likely made up by the homeowner or handiman. Or carpenter or tile guy. They probably used black tape to hold the wirenuts on too. Sure, it was hard to find, but you should not have had to find it in the first place.

A solid splice should never have an issue. All electrician should make solid splices. And when burying it, it should be extra solid- absolutely bulletproof. That splice should not fail before the wire itself burns up. 

The likelihood of that bulletproof splice that you buried being the one that causes an issue is astronomical.


----------



## B-Nabs

A splice is a potential failure point, no matter how "bulletproof" you try to make it. Burying potential failure points where they are difficult to find and repair is irresponsible and reflects badly on your craftsmanship. 

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


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## HackWork

B-Nabs said:


> A splice is a potential failure point, no matter how "bulletproof" you try to make it.


 So is every single staple hammered down onto the cable. And every inch of cable which could be hit if a nail or screw is driven into them at any time in the future.

There's a million different "what-if's" you can bring up. But we don't worry about all of them, we only try to mitigate the most likely issues. A splice that I made knowing that it is going to be buried is absolutely not going to be a likely issue, not by any means.


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## MechanicalDVR

HackWork said:


> So is every single staple hammered down onto the cable. And every inch of cable which could be hit if a nail or screw is driven into them at any time in the future.
> 
> There's a million different "what-if's" you can bring up. But we don't worry about all of them, we only try to mitigate the most likely issues. *A splice that I made knowing that it is going to be buried is absolutely not going to be a likely issue, not by any means*.


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## 99cents

HackWork said:


> So is every single staple hammered down onto the cable. And every inch of cable which could be hit if a nail or screw is driven into them at any time in the future.
> 
> There's a million different "what-if's" you can bring up. But we don't worry about all of them, we only try to mitigate the most likely issues. A splice that I made knowing that it is going to be buried is absolutely not going to be a likely issue, not by any means.


There is no comparison between the two. A staple slammed into a cable is poor workmanship. A buried splice is....

Oh, never mind.


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## HackWork

99cents said:


> There is no comparison between the two. A staple slammed into a cable is poor workmanship. A buried splice is....
> 
> Oh, never mind.


That is exactly it, I’m glad you’re starting to understand. An electrician who does such poor workmanship that they can make a bullet proof splice also can’t be trusted to hammer in thousands of staples. But we don’t keep them all exposed for future troubleshooting.


----------



## B-Nabs

I would argue that, assuming an electrician with sufficient skill is doing the installation, a splice is a more likely failure point than a staple. And that is the reason the code requires us to leave splices accessible. A rule line that isn't created in a vacuum. I feel quite confident in asserting that rule was placed in the code because there was a problem that needed solving. 

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


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## HackWork

B-Nabs said:


> A rule line that isn't created in a vacuum. I feel quite confident in asserting that rule was placed in the code because there was a problem that needed solving.


True, but the correct problem isn't always addressed. In this case, they didn't have a way to ensure that every splice is made solidly by a qualified electrician, so they did what the code increasingly does- they dumbed down the requirements for unqualified people. 

I don't have that issue of making poor splices, so the generalized code requirement is not something I choose to follow. It's like driving down a wide and open street with no houses or cars that has a 25MPH limit. I'll happily break the law and drive faster than that. We all will.


----------



## MTW

eddy current said:


> Wallpaper? Really?
> 
> I would do them a favour by making them get rid of the wallpaper because of the small holes required for a professional to do the job properly. When they call for a professional, they should get a professional job done. Any hack handyman could bury a splice for them.


No, a hack handyman would make a bad splice and wouldn't even use a box. A professional would make a bullet proof splice in a proper box that would never fail. 

As for the wall paper, I'm surprised nobody could figure out what I meant by that. Is everyone that dense? :confused1:


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## 99cents

I have an idea. They should make a fake smoke detector to put over a JB. They could even put a green light on it. No nuisance alarms.

Love it!


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## HackWork

99cents said:


> I have an idea. They should make a fake smoke detector to put over a JB. They could even put a green light on it. No nuisance alarms.
> 
> Love it!


Why would you use a fake smoke detector when a real one costs $8? 

I have 2 4" round cover plates in the truck with the holes already drilled/tapped for mounting a Kidde battery smoke for just this purpose.


----------



## MTW

zac said:


> Missing something alright and it's called integrity! No wonder New England is falling apart!




I never said I do it regularly. But there are definitely specific circumstances when I would do it.


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## MechanicalDVR

HackWork said:


> Why would you use a fake smoke detector when a real one costs $8?
> 
> I have 2 4" round cover plates in the truck with the holes already drilled/tapped for mounting a Kidde battery smoke for just this purpose.


So does it then become a hidden splice cover-detector?


----------



## 99cents

HackWork said:


> Why would you use a fake smoke detector when a real one costs $8?


I was just making the dumb dumber.


----------



## HackWork

99cents said:


> I was just making the dumb dumber.


Yeah, because you would rather troll then actually discuss viable and compliant alternatives.


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## zac

MTW said:


> I never said I do it regularly. But there are definitely specific circumstances when I would do it.


I hear ya.
I was working on a casino on an Indian reservation. They have there own rules and inspectors. One day we were told that we were covering up our junction boxes that would be sconces, receptacles and switches and we needed to do it now. I just turned out and told my foreman I wasn't going to do it. He told me about the rez and their rules and the inspector on site gave the green light.... cover plates went on and the framers came in to fur wall. Probably 30 buried boxes.The building was in the trim stage and they kept adding change orders so that's the way it went. Couldn't believe it but that's life on the rez.



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## CoolWill

HackWork said:


> :sad::sad:


With the way you've been acting lately, you'd be lucky if you made tertiary squeeze.:crying:


----------



## HackWork

zac said:


> I hear ya.
> I was working on a casino on an Indian reservation. They have there own rules and inspectors. One day we were told that we were covering up our junction boxes that would be sconces, receptacles and switches and we needed to do it now. I just turned out and told my foreman I wasn't going to do it. He told me about the rez and their rules and the inspector on site gave the green light.... cover plates went on and the framers came in to fur wall. Probably 30 buried boxes.The building was in the trim stage and they kept adding change orders so that's the way it went. Couldn't believe it but that's life on the rez.


See, this right here is one of the biggest issues I have. 

You weren't willing to do it- until you were told that someone else's made-up rules said it was OK to do it in that geographical location. Then it's perfectly fine, do it. 

Either something is right or wrong. I don't subscribe to this garbage that it is right on one side of man-made line and wrong on the other. That's the epitome of just blindly following. 

As I asked the plumber years ago, why is my 1.5" shower stall drain going to cause an overflow in the shower here in the US but not above the border in Canada? The answer "_Well, thems the rules_" just doesn't cut it.


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## 99cents

The Canadian government made it law that we have stronger gravity so our water flows faster.


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## CoolWill

99cents said:


> The Canadian government made it law that we have stronger gravity so our water flows faster.


Sounds like something a government would try.


----------



## Going_Commando

MTW said:


> eddy current said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wallpaper? Really?
> 
> I would do them a favour by making them get rid of the wallpaper because of the small holes required for a professional to do the job properly. When they call for a professional, they should get a professional job done. Any hack handyman could bury a splice for them.
> 
> 
> 
> No, a hack handyman would make a bad splice and wouldn't even use a box. A professional would make a bullet proof splice in a proper box that would never fail.
> 
> As for the wall paper, I'm surprised nobody could figure out what I meant by that. Is everyone that dense?
Click to expand...

I guess I'm just not arrogant enough to think that every splice I've ever made is perfect, and every wirenut I've ever used is perfect and doesn't have a defect in the spring inside. Sure, a lot of the burned up splices I have seen over the years could have been from poor worksmanship, but I can't prove that 100% of the time it wasn't that $.09 part that failed. Is it likely to happen? No. Could it happen? Yes, which is why I keep splices accessible. 

If the customer doesn't want a blank cover over the old box, then I'll figure a way around that with minimal patching, but if they have to patch the old box hole anyway, what's another 4" round hole or 2? The number of times I've been able to use the old wire to pull in a new one without cutting any additional holes isn't low, either. I don't like butchering people's finished walls and ceilings, so I inherently try not to from the start.


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## splatz

If I was going to write the rules on this. Number one that Tyco device is a steaming pile of crap. It's not one of the top ten most durable splices I can think of. It's the dumbest thing to allow for a repair. If someone hit the wire with a screw hanging a Chrismas wreath and you're repairing that, well guess what, you'll be back when they hit the Tyco junk with a screw hanging their Valentine's decorations. 

Number two a splice made bulletproof in the wall is as safe as the original wire but common methods of splicing are not bulletproof. I would say that to make this generally legal in the code you'd need a different classification for splices to allow them to be concealed. The knob on tube comments are very much on point, the wiring method is deprecated but there's no question you can make sufficiently durable splices in walls, it was done for decades, it's proven beyond the shadow of a doubt.


----------



## zac

HackWork said:


> See, this right here is one of the biggest issues I have.
> 
> 
> 
> You weren't willing to do it- until you were told that someone else's made-up rules said it was OK to do it in that geographical location. Then it's perfectly fine, do it.
> 
> 
> 
> Either something is right or wrong. I don't subscribe to this garbage that it is right on one side of man-made line and wrong on the other. That's the epitome of just blindly following.
> 
> 
> 
> As I asked the plumber years ago, why is my 1.5" shower stall drain going to cause an overflow in the shower here in the US but not above the border in Canada? The answer "_Well, thems the rules_" just doesn't cut it.


I did it because I followed orders. On the rez it's not illegal and my employer had no liability issues with it. If my conscience would have been violated I wouldn't have. This is different then having no issue burying a splice whenever it saves the customer money. I also was very young at the time and presented the same scenario today wound have different results. 

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## HackWork

For what it’s worth, I’m not saying that ilburying a splice should be made code compliant. I understand why it is against code. I am just saying that a competent and skilled electrician shouldn’t feel bad for doing it every once in a while.


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## HackWork

zac said:


> I did it because I followed orders.


 Oh, I thought you told them you weren’t going to do it, until they said that it was allowed there.

For what it’s worth, if I was the contractor in your situation today I probably wouldn’t have buried them at all.


----------



## 99cents

HackWork said:


> For what it’s worth, I’m not saying that ilburying a splice should be made code compliant. I understand why it is against code. I am just saying that a competent and skilled electrician shouldn’t feel bad for doing it every once in a while.


In post #115, you said it was compliant. You should be consistent with your bull chit.


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## HackWork

99cents said:


> In post #115, you said it was compliant. You should be consistent with your bull chit.


Again you are trolling. You are incapable of actually having a discussion.

In that post I was talking about using a smoke detector over a blank plate. You are the one who brought that up. That is a code compliant alternative to burying the splice. One that I have used many times.

I never said that burying a splice is code compliant. Why must you always be an asshole?


----------



## 99cents

HackWork said:


> Again you are trolling. You are incapable of actually having a discussion.
> 
> In that post I was talking about using a smoke detector over a blank plate. You are the one who brought that up. That is a code compliant alternative to burying the splice. One that I have used many times.
> 
> I never said that burying a splice is code compliant. Why must you always be an asshole?


It’s genetic. What’s your reason?


----------



## HackWork

99cents said:


> It’s genetic. What’s your reason?


 I’m not. I’m just having a conversation. People might not agree with me, but we are just discussing our opinions. I haven’t posted any bullsh1t. You are the only one posting here whose sole purpose is to incite trouble, as usual.

I understand that my opinions often differ from other people’s, and that’s fine. Having open conversation is good no matter what. I’m not trying to change anyone’s mind, just offering up a different perspective. If it makes people think more about something, then everyone wins


----------



## 99cents

HackWork said:


> I’m not. I’m just having a conversation. People might not agree with me, but we are just discussing our opinions. I haven’t posted any bullsh1t. You are the only one posting here whose sole purpose is to incite trouble, as usual.
> 
> I understand that my opinions often differ from other people’s, and that’s fine. Having open conversation is good no matter what. I’m not trying to change anyone’s mind, just offering up a different perspective. If it makes people think more about something, then everyone wins


So it’s not genetic?


----------



## HackWork

99cents said:


> So it’s not genetic?


No, either is homosexuality. I bet you wish you could say the same.


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## sbrn33

I didn't know you could say asshole. This makes me very happy.


----------



## HackWork

Going_Commando said:


> I guess I'm just not arrogant enough to think that every splice I've ever made is perfect


 It's not about arrogance, it's about confidence. 

What you mentioned about the splices could also be carried over into other parts of your work. You have hammered in tens of thousands of staples, you're not arrogant enough to think that you didn't hit a few of them in too hard, right? It could happen, and it might cause an issue in the future, and that issue will have to be solved. So be it.



> Sure, a lot of the burned up splices I have seen over the years could have been from poor worksmanship, but I can't prove that 100% of the time it wasn't that $.09 part that failed. Is it likely to happen? No. Could it happen? Yes, which is why I keep splices accessible.


 The likelihood of a splice you made perfectly (ensuring it was solid and the wirenuts were good) ending up failing is so astronomical that it just doesn't need to be worried about. There are many other things that we do everyday that have a higher likelihood of causing a future issue, but we do them without caring just because other people have told us it's ok. Because that is the etiquette that we accepted. 



> If the customer doesn't want a blank cover over the old box, then I'll figure a way around that with minimal patching, but if they have to patch the old box hole anyway, what's another 4" round hole or 2? The number of times I've been able to use the old wire to pull in a new one without cutting any additional holes isn't low, either. I don't like butchering people's finished walls and ceilings, so I inherently try not to from the start.


Agreed. Most of the time it's no big deal to work around it. Or cover it up. The smoke detector idea works well, or moving the box to a position in which a picture will cover the blank cover. Or give the customer a wall sconce in that position. Etc. etc. But this thread was asking about those few times that there were no other reasonable options.


----------



## lighterup

I'm not sure if I ever buried a splice...I can't remember doing it , but what i do recall
is wanting to ...about 1000 times I would guess.

What I want to know is , why was it legal when knob & tube was being installed?
I mean what is the difference ...soldering ?...Okay so maybe the code book should be amended to allow buried splices if they are soldered?


----------



## 99cents

How is it even possible to compare overhammered staples to a buried splice? That’s like saying it’s Thursday so it must be a duck.


----------



## HackWork

99cents said:


> How is it even possible to compare overhammered staples to a buried splice?


 They are both points of failure that are buried behind the wall sheathing. It's a very simple and easy to understand comparison.


----------



## 99cents

So it’s a duck.


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## HackWork

99cents said:


> So it’s a duck.


Excellent post, as usual. Thank you for gaying everything up :biggrin:


----------



## MTW

Going_Commando said:


> I guess I'm just not arrogant enough to think that every splice I've ever made is perfect, and every wirenut I've ever used is perfect and doesn't have a defect in the spring inside. Sure, a lot of the burned up splices I have seen over the years could have been from poor worksmanship, but I can't prove that 100% of the time it wasn't that $.09 part that failed. Is it likely to happen? No. Could it happen? Yes, which is why I keep splices accessible.
> 
> If the customer doesn't want a blank cover over the old box, then I'll figure a way around that with minimal patching, but if they have to patch the old box hole anyway, what's another 4" round hole or 2? The number of times I've been able to use the old wire to pull in a new one without cutting any additional holes isn't low, either. I don't like butchering people's finished walls and ceilings, so I inherently try not to from the start.


How is it arrogance? :confused1: Splices are one of the few things that we do in this trade that must be done correctly 100% of the time, without fail. It's no different that being an airline pilot. You must have a 100% perfect safety record throughout your career because the results of just one accident will have devastating results. So is an airline pilot with a perfect safety record "arrogant"? It's no different with electrical work. One bad splice can have devastating results. 

I've taken apart perfectly good splices that were made 50 or more years ago that were done with far more inferior wire nuts than what we available today. I have no reason to doubt the quality of the materials used in wire connectors today. 

As I said, I don't bury splices as a rule. I only do it when it's the absolute last resort. I don't look down on anyone who does either, or pretend to stand on this fake and fraudulent safety code called the NEC.


----------



## MTW

HackWork said:


> Either something is right or wrong. I don't subscribe to this garbage that it is right on one side of man-made line and wrong on the other. That's the epitome of just blindly following.


I'll use a local example to illustrate just how stupid these arbitrary rules are. It's still legal to run NM cable above suspended ceilings in Massachusetts in commercial occupancies because MA has amended the NEC and has ever since the NEC changed the rule. But step 100 feet over the border into any neighboring state to Massachusetts and suddenly it's wrong and dangerous to run NM cable above a suspended ceiling. 

The same could be said for Chicago and its EMT rules. Once you step outside of Chicago it's ok to use NM cable again.


----------



## Going_Commando

MTW said:


> I'll use a local example to illustrate just how stupid these arbitrary rules are. It's still legal to run NM cable above suspended ceilings in Massachusetts in commercial occupancies because MA has amended the NEC and has ever since the NEC changed the rule. But step 100 feet over the border into any neighboring state to Massachusetts and suddenly it's wrong and dangerous to run NM cable above a suspended ceiling.
> 
> The same could be said for Chicago and its EMT rules. Once you step outside of Chicago it's ok to use NM cable again.


NH passed an amendment that lets us do it now too.


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## 99cents

Here’s a wire nut that blew apart under heavy load in a concealed JB. Water damage. Five year old Siemens panel. Breaker did not trip.


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## MTW

Going_Commando said:


> NH passed an amendment that lets us do it now too.


Recently? Sounds like a case of "If you can't beat them, join them" taking place based on the amount of MA contractors that work in NH every day.


----------



## lighterup

I like Ideal push in connectors...eff reds


----------



## eddy current

MTW said:


> As I said, I don't bury splices as a rule. I only do it when it's the absolute last resort. .


Yeah........like when there’s wallpaper on the walls. 

Lol


----------



## lighterup

I'm not sure potential troubleshooting is a realistic factor in this issue cause we
are permitted to bury splices underground outside...right? Those are still
potential weak points in the circuit (as stated by others and of which I agree) ...BUT
why is it okay to bury a splice underground as opposed to indoors behind a wall?


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## stiffneck

Everything gets buried at an Airport.


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## eddy current

lighterup said:


> I'm not sure potential troubleshooting is a realistic factor in this issue cause we
> are permitted to bury splices underground outside...right? Those are still
> potential weak points in the circuit (as stated by others and of which I agree) ...BUT
> why is it okay to bury a splice underground as opposed to indoors behind a wall?


Fire hazard in a wall. No fire hazard under ground


----------



## HackWork

eddy current said:


> Fire hazard in a wall. No fire hazard under ground


No more of a fire hazard than the other 50-200 junction boxes in the walls.


----------



## CTshockhazard

Man, I could swear I remember seeing a picture of a manufacturers mid-coil butt splice that someone, maybe 480?, came across. :wink:


----------



## eddy current

HackWork said:


> No more of a fire hazard than the other 50-200 junction boxes in the walls.


But that is why joints and splices must be in approved boxes. You do realize that the box is not just there to support the receptacles and lights right?

Can’t believe I need to explain this to you


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## HackWork

CTshockhazard said:


> Man, I could swear I remember seeing a picture of a manufacturers mid-coil butt splice that someone, maybe 480?, came across. :wink:


I have found those in Romex. I actually have one in a junction box in my attic.


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## HackWork

eddy current said:


> But that is why joints and splices must be in approved boxes.


 I agree. I never said to make a flying splice in the wall. 



> You do realize that the box is not just there to support the receptacles and lights right?
> 
> Can’t believe I need to explain this to you


You don't have to explain it to me, and give up the condescending BS. I never advocated to make a splice without a box. No one has.


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## B-Nabs

lighterup said:


> I'm not sure potential troubleshooting is a realistic factor in this issue cause we
> are permitted to bury splices underground outside...right? Those are still
> potential weak points in the circuit (as stated by others and of which I agree) ...BUT
> why is it okay to bury a splice underground as opposed to indoors behind a wall?


Think about it another way: the guys here saying they do it or would do it, still say they don't/wouldn't do it often. If it were allowed, there would be nothing stopping someone from making dozens of buried splices in one installation, which would definitely turn into a troubleshooting nightmare, and in my opinion hazard. 

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


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## HackWork

B-Nabs said:


> Think about it another way: the guys here saying they do it or would do it, still say they don't/wouldn't do it often. If it were allowed, there would be nothing stopping someone from making dozens of buried splices in one installation, which would definitely turn into a troubleshooting nightmare, and in my opinion hazard.


It's not optimal to do it, I definitely agree with that.

But we all find ourselves doing things that aren't optimal sometimes. 

Right now I have a guy installing a new 20/40 panel in a house with 18 circuits. I don't like it, it's not the best way to do it, but it is the only panel that will fit.


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## MechanicalDVR

eddy current said:


> Yeah........like when there’s wallpaper or crown moulding on the walls.
> 
> Lol




Fify!


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## MTW

eddy current said:


> Yeah........like when there’s wallpaper on the walls.
> 
> Lol


This is coming from the guy who can't do electrical work without the government protecting him.


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## eddy current

MTW said:


> This is coming from the guy who can't do electrical work without the government protecting him.


Yes the work I do is code compliant and passes inspection. There is no one protecting me. It’s actually the norm for professional electricians, I don’t expect a handyman hack like yourself to understand :wink:


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## HackWork

eddy current said:


> Yes the work I do is code compliant


What about the car charger installation that would be prohibited by code but you said you would lie in the load calc to make it work? That was ok to break code? You can pick and choose which code you break, huh?


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## MTW

eddy current said:


> Yes the work I do is code compliant and passes inspection. There is no one protecting me. It’s actually the norm for professional electricians, I don’t expect a handyman hack like yourself to understand :wink:


The norm for professional electricians is not to go running to the government to have a government inspector looking at and approving their work.


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## MTW

HackWork said:


> What about the car charger installation that would be prohibited by code but you said you would lie in the load calc to make it work? That was ok to break code? You can pick and choose which code you break, huh?



Yeah but he said he does code compliant work that passes inspection 100% of the time, and he always gets an inspection for everything he does.


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## eddy current

You two can try and justify your handyman quality work all you want but it won’t work.

Burying splices in walls is hack, period.


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## HackWork

eddy current said:


> You two can try and justify your handyman quality work all you want but it won’t work.
> 
> Burying splices in walls is hack, period.


I never said it wasn't hack. "Hack" is exactly how I would describe it.

Why did you ignore the part about how you admitted that you would be willing to break code when it suited you? After all the holier than thou bologna you posted about how code always has to be followed and you would never break it, how can you justify the fact that you admitted you would knowingly break it because the customer didn't want to have to upgrade their service to be code compliant?


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## eddy current

HackWork said:


> I never said it wasn't hack. "Hack" is exactly how I would describe it.
> 
> Why did you ignore the part about how you admitted that you would be willing to break code when it suited you? After all the holier than thou bologna you posted about how code always has to be followed and you would never break it, how can you justify the fact that you admitted you would knowingly break it because the customer didn't want to have to upgrade their service to be code compliant?


More like ignoring your trolling hack But I’ll bite, the wife took the kids out and I’m bored.

That code was a grey area because of new technology and has now been changed here in Ontario.

Got something else?


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## HackWork

eddy current said:


> More like ignoring your trolling hack But I’ll bite, the wife took the kids out and I’m bored.
> 
> That code was a grey area because of new technology and has now been changed here in Ontario.
> 
> Got something else?


It's not a grey area, it is against code. You know that it is. And me pointing it out is not trolling, it's simply stating a fact. 

You're the one who goes around this forum playing Little Goody Two-Shoes, constantly saying how he would NEVER break code because it's so horrible, right up until you find a code that you admit is ok to break.


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## eddy current

HackWork said:


> It's not a grey area, it is against code. You know that it is. And me pointing it out is not trolling, it's simply stating a fact.
> 
> It was a grey area and the code has been changed, it’s not against code right now
> 
> You're the one who goes around this forum playing Little Goody Two-Shoes, constantly saying how he would NEVER break code because it's so horrible, right up until you find a code that you admit is ok to break.


As you know I am an electrical instructor that teaches code amongst many other things. What should I teach apprentices and journeymen? To do things properly by following code or to just hack it in so the home owner is happy?


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## HackWork

eddy current said:


> It was a grey area and the code has been changed, it’s not against code right now.


Bologna and you know it:



eddy current said:


> This doesn’t happen often.......but I agree with Hack on this one.
> 
> If I did a load calc that was close but over, I would play with the numbers to keep it under 100 amp so there would be no service upgrade required. They will never trip the main anyway.


^^^^^^^

You would commit fraud and submit a false load calc to knowingly deceive the inspector in order to break code. That is what you said. 

If the code actually changed in the last 5 days rolleyes, that still doesn't change the fact that you admit you would do it.

The worst part about this is that it's not really a bad thing. You just won't give up the holier than thou act, even when caught.


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## HackWork

You completely edited your post:



eddy current said:


> As you know I am an electrical instructor that teaches code amongst many other things. What should I teach apprentices and journeymen? To do things properly by following code or to just hack it in so the home owner is happy?


You should do like every other instructor does. Teach them the right way. But when one of them pulls you to the side and asks about a certain situation, level with them about it. If it's not a direct safety issue, discuss the consequences.


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## eddy current

HackWork said:


> Bologna and you know it:
> 
> ^^^^^^^
> 
> You would commit fraud and submit a false load calc to knowingly deceive the inspector in order to break code. That is what you said.
> 
> If the code actually changed in the last 5 days rolleyes, that still doesn't change the fact that you admit you would do it.
> 
> The worst part about this is that it's not really a bad thing. You just won't give up the holier than thou act, even when caught.


Nothing holy about me. I thought you knew me better than that:wink:

It actually changed back in October and the amendment was posted on that other thread ( I had no idea, someone else brought it up) Because electric chargers are more popular something had to be done. I also was just in a code update course this week for our new code where we discussed this situation and how it has changed because it was a grey area for so long.


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## HackWork

eddy current said:


> Nothing holy about me. I thought you knew me better than that:wink:
> 
> It actually changed back in October and the amendment was posted on that other thread. Because electric chargers are more popular something had to be done. I also was just in a code update course this week for our new code where we discussed this situation and how it has changed because it was a grey area for so long.


As I explained, it doesn't matter that it changed.

You admitted that you would commit fraud and submit a false load calc to knowingly deceive the inspector in order to break code. 

Those are your words.


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## eddy current

HackWork said:


> You completely edited your post:
> 
> Sorry, your so quick to respond. Wait a minute after my posts and refresh. I tend to add stuff often.
> 
> You should do like every other instructor does. Teach them the right way. But when one of them pulls you to the side and asks about a certain situation, level with them about it. If it's not a direct safety issue, discuss the consequences.


And I do and so do our inspectors.


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## HackWork

I think we should start talking about how good looking I am.


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## eddy current

HackWork said:


> As I explained, it doesn't matter that it changed.
> 
> You admitted that you would commit fraud and submit a false load calc to knowingly deceive the inspector in order to break code.
> 
> Those are your words.



Commit fraud was not my words but yes I explained how I would stick handle my way around that code, a code that has been a grey area for a while and had actually changed already by amendment and I didn’t even know it.


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## eddy current

HackWork said:


> I think we should start talking about how good looking I am.


Pics or it didn’t happen :wink:

Actually no, I don’t think I want to see


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## HackWork

eddy current said:


> Commit fraud was not my words but yes I explained how I would stick handle my way around that code, a code that has been a grey area for a while and had actually changed already by amendment and I didn’t even know it.


So I could say that burying a box is a grey area? We could label anything that, huh? As long as it suits Eddy :biggrin:


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## eddy current

HackWork said:


> So I could say that burying a box is a grey area? We could label anything that, huh? As long as it suits Eddy :biggrin:


If it was a new technology and a code that needed to be changed, yes.

But it has been hack for a while and the code does not need to change :biggrin:


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## MTW

eddy current said:


> You two can try and justify your handyman quality work all you want but it won’t work.
> 
> Burying splices in walls is hack, period.


Why? Because some failed electricians got together in a room and decided it was, and then put it in a code book? Why is it wrong in one state to run NM cable above a suspended ceiling, but one state over it's perfectly fine? Most code rules are arbitrary.

And once again, I never said I bury splices on a regular basis. I do it as a last resort. I break code rules on a regular basis and have no problem doing so.


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## MTW

HackWork said:


> I think we should start talking about how good looking I am.


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## Southeast Power

Point of order!
I thought we were addressing underground splicing like real electricians not resi rope and drywall work.:hammer:


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## LGLS

It would be code compliant to bury this thread and pretend it never existed.


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## Bird dog

zac said:


> The *Tyco inline splice kit* has me wondering how many of you bury a splice that's not accessible? I will splice a box next to a can if need be and other little tricks but don't have the conscience to bury a splice.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk





Southeast Power said:


> Point of order!
> I thought we were addressing underground splicing like real electricians not resi rope and drywall work.:hammer:


OP above...splice was for romex.


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## B-Nabs

I'm working on a high rise presentation centre right now, this place will be ripped apart again in probably 2 years at the most after the development sells out. Yesterday I had to cut open a wall with backing in it to add power for a TV, and in the process I managed to cut a cable with my sawzall *derp*. I seriously considered burying a splice, just for the simple fact that it would only be there a few months. But I couldn't bring myself to do it. I safed off the other end, labeled the cut cable abandoned, and fished in a new line. I couldn't stand the idea of whoever demos that place finding it and wondering what hack built the place. 

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


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## HackWork

B-Nabs said:


> I seriously considered burying a splice, just for the simple fact that it would only be there a few months. But I couldn't bring myself to do it. I safed off the other end, labeled the cut cable abandoned, and fished in a new line. I couldn't stand the idea of whoever demos that place finding it and wondering what hack built the place.


 It’s like killing someone. The first one is the hardest, but after that it’s business as usual. :biggrin:


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## eddy current

HackWork said:


> For what it’s worth, I’m not saying that ilburying a splice should be made code compliant. I understand why it is against code. I am just saying that a competent and skilled electrician shouldn’t feel bad for doing it every once in a while.


What about burying a junction point, like a box with more than just one wire in, and one wire out?

Would you bury a box like that?


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## HackWork

eddy current said:


> What about burying a junction point, like a box with more than just one wire in, and one wire out?
> 
> Would you bury a box like that?


Why wouldn't I?


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## Bird dog

HackWork said:


> It’s like killing someone. The first one is the hardest, but after that it’s business as usual. :biggrin:


You're a sheetrocker at heart. :wink:


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## eddy current

HackWork said:


> Why wouldn't I?


I was just curious to see if you considered them different and if you would or wouldn’t bury one.


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## splatz

eddy current said:


> What about burying a junction point, like a box with more than just one wire in, and one wire out?
> 
> Would you bury a box like that?





HackWork said:


> Why wouldn't I?


A junction that's more than a splice to extend a cable would be more likely to mess up someone troubleshooting.


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## HackWork

splatz said:


> A junction that's more than a splice to extend a cable would be more likely to mess up someone troubleshooting.


I couldn't care less about someone's troubleshooting.

The NEC is not a design manual.

In the 1 in a billion chance that the handful of buried splices I have made messes up someone else's troubleshooting, too bad. Run a new circuit. Done.


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## splatz

HackWork said:


> I couldn't care less about someone's troubleshooting.
> 
> The NEC is not a design manual.
> 
> In the 1 in a billion chance that the handful of buried splices I have made messes up someone else's troubleshooting, too bad. Run a new circuit. Done.


Oh my God Hackworth. You mean you bury splices and leave half connected wiring floating in the walls? Why don't you leave a banana peel at the top of the stairs too? Maybe give the toddlers matches and lead paint chips in the shape of M&M's to play with if there's kids in the household?


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## HackWork

splatz said:


> Oh my God Hackworth. You mean you bury splices and *leave half connected wiring floating in the walls*?


 I don't know WTF you're talking about or why you are trolling like this.


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## Kiloready

Never ever have I buried a splice! Whoever’s does that should get a welding job. Only trade I know that does splicing legally.


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## lighterup

Just finished a small commercial remodel job.
The hackwork I found during demo on this building 
was hilarious. If I were giving Electricians Talk any kind
of thought while working, I would have taken pictures , 
but alas I didn't take pictures and I don't think of ET 
often enough (evidently).

Well , I get the call back that an outside post light (in the
parking lot) is not working off the photo eye no more
So I check my print and there's no "post light" in the specs.

I go back to do an outside visual search and by back tracking
where the OH switch leg enters the building and the fortune
of an open non dry walled wall in the corner (on the garage side) 
reached into the back of the wall & was able to feel that there's
a steel box buried back there at coach light height.

After pulling teeth and Chinese torture test on the owner
I got him to fess up that there used to be an exterior coach 
light on the right side of the front door of this business.

Evidently the owner did not want it any more , hired a previous 
electrician who used the box as a junction point for the install
of the post light , prior to the installation of steel siding being 
put on the building and just covering the old coach light box
under that siding. Nice.

Too bad for the owner. The "post light" or any power or switch
was not on the spec sheet for the job (probably cause the architect 
didn't know about it either)so guess who is making more money
tomorrow?

Thank you to all electricians who bury boxes:vs_laugh::vs_laugh:


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## Weasel

It’s perfectly legal and they even sell them at Home Depot and loads with shrink tubing. I did it about a month ago and even let the inspector watch as I used my heat gun to shrink the tubing


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## emtnut

Weasel said:


> It’s perfectly legal and they even sell them at Home Depot and loads with shrink tubing. I did it about a month ago and even let the inspector watch as I used my heat gun to shrink the tubing


If the Pro at Home Depot approves, well then... so do I :biggrin:
Homeowners helping Homeowners ...


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## paulengr

Just Cadweld it all. It’s easy and definitely to Code. And will scare any homeowner away from ever doing it themselves. Erico has been pushing the idea that mechanical splices underground shouldn’t be used for years. Now they even have one time use kits so you don’t have to buy molds.


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## kurtbelyeu

daveEM said:


> Back in '72 when I was a second year...
> 
> Journeyman would get a boom-proof oct box whilst I was digging down to find the broken wires. He would do the splice and fill the box with melted paraffin wax.


Fun getting those suckers opened back up after they have been buried for a while..


----------

