# Panel upgrade grounding question



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Yes, you can install them anywhere that you want. I have never been in your situation, but sometimes going thru the basement floor is our only option.


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

It’s been a while since Ive done a panel upgrade. On the tankless water heater, I have to bond the hot to the cold to the gas line but not back to the panel? 

Also the old panel was a zinsco 12 space with copper bussbars, the bussbars were in great condition, are they worth keeping?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

five.five-six said:


> It’s been a while since Ive done a panel upgrade. On the tankless water heater, I have to bond the hot to the cold to the gas line but not back to the panel?


 You have to run a jumper from the hot to the cold to make sure that the system is electrically continuous, since the inside of the water heater might be plastic. You do not have to run that back to the panel.

As for also connecting the gas line, that is not required by electrical code and is not done in my area. It might be required in your area though. The gas line is generally bonded by the EGC of the circuit that is feeding the furnace.

Remember to also run a jumper over the water meter if it's inside the house. 



> Also the old panel was a zinsco 12 space with copper bussbars, the bussbars were in great condition, are they worth keeping?


Not sure. I would never reuse them myself, I would throw it on the scrap pile.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

five five six

The gas line is hit & miss around here. It seems one AHJ wants 
it the way you describe and then nthe next one down the road don't.

Those that do say all trades' metals should be bonded. Those that don't fear the
idea of connecting the gas line....IDK.

So what I do , leave your bond line from hot to cold long enough to reach
the gas line just in case , that way if someone tells me to bond it ...it's there. 
I just add the clamp and connect


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

HackWork said:


> Not sure. I would never reuse them myself, I would throw it on the scrap pile.


I onlhy know one place to get replacement zinsco buss bars and they just take sticks of copper and cut them to length.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

five.five-six said:


> I onlhy know one place to get replacement zinsco buss bars and they just take sticks of copper and cut them to length.


The only buss I have ever replaced in resi panels were newish (10 year old or less) panels wired up neatly in which I could buy the same panel brand new and just swap out the buss.

I would never do that with an old panel or a Zinsco. Replace the whole thing only. Just my opinion.


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## Kawicrash (Aug 21, 2018)

How was the original panel grounded? Is the new panel going to be in a different location? No copper water supply line? Here we go to the street side of the water meter.
Edit: I just looked up ufer, never heard of that before, we say in situ for rebar or concrete encased electrodes. I live on the Red River flood plane, so getting a good ground is never a problem. More problems with too much water when digging basements.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Kawicrash said:


> How was the original panel grounded? Is the new panel going to be in a different location? No copper water supply line? Here we go to the street side of the water meter.


Grounding is a different beast down south. We just take it to the supply side of the water meter and call it a day. They’re more complicated down there. They also have to bond metallic water lines. We only do gas lines.


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

Kawicrash said:


> How was the original panel grounded?


It wasn’t. 

Old house, type NM without ground.


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## The_Modifier (Oct 24, 2009)

99cents said:


> Grounding is a different beast down south. We just take it to the supply side of the water meter and call it a day. They’re more complicated down there. They also have to bond metallic water lines. We only do gas lines.


In Ontario, copper lines must be bonded as well. We usually get all the bonding done in the mechanical room/ area of the house. I.E. water tank and gas line off the furnace.


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## Kawicrash (Aug 21, 2018)

The_Modifier said:


> 99cents said:
> 
> 
> > Grounding is a different beast down south. We just take it to the supply side of the water meter and call it a day. They’re more complicated down there. They also have to bond metallic water lines. We only do gas lines.
> ...


 So do you bond everything together then a run back to the panel or is it a continuous run from the water meter and pick up everything on the way and then the panel?
Excuse my ignorance, I've never done a new house, 99% + has been commercial/industrial type stuff with just a few panel changes and service upgrades, and all we had to make sure of is that it went to the street side of the meter, some older homes they just went to the closest cold water line to the panel.


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## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

In Ontario, everything needs to be bonded. If you have copper city supplied water line then you can pick-up the gas line on the way to the water meter usually. If you can't pick-up the gas line then you put a jumper at the water tank.

If you are using ground rods or plates, you need to run (usually) two wires. One for the ground from the plates to the panel and a second from the panel to the water and gas lines. This is also the situation when you have 2-gang meter socket; ground goes to the meter socket and a separate bond wire from the panel to the gas / water lines and between the meter socket and the panel.

Most people don't do it, but you are supposed to bond the duct work as well. Normally this is done through the feed to the furnace, but if the furnace has a vibration collar on it, then there needs to be a small jumper installed between the furnace and the ductwork opposite the vibration collar.

Cheers
John


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

You better check with the city on the bonding of the gas line. Almost every city up here requires it to be bonded without relying upon an appliance. Most places like you said, I just hit the hot/cold/gas at the water heater.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Wow. Gas lines I can see because it’s explosive. What about aluminum siding, steel studs and metallic deck rails? The list is endless.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

Here are a few articles on gas bonding that area a good read. Interestingly, they have differing opinions on the subject as well. 

https://www.ecmag.com/section/codes-standards/grounding-and-bonding-gas-piping

https://www.ecmweb.com/code-basics/gas-pipe-grounding-legal


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## Kawicrash (Aug 21, 2018)

....


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

five.five-six, Be aware that this discussion seems to all be about metal gas pipe. CSST is different and generally requires a bond near the entrance. Even if the CSST is used far downstream in the house, the bond still needs to be near where the gas pipe enters the house.


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## Kawicrash (Aug 21, 2018)

....


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Kawicrash said:


> ....





Kawicrash said:


> ....


Was it something I said? :sad:


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## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

Usually an ellipsis is an omission in a contextual term... so it must have been something you said @HackWork!

Cheers
John


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## Kawicrash (Aug 21, 2018)

Nothing so dramatic. You need a minimum of 4 characters, so 4 dots.
I tend to sometimes get off track of the OP in this and other forums I belong to, and don't want to give the impression of hijacking the thread...


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

Kawicrash said:


> Nothing so dramatic. You need a minimum of 4 characters, so 4 dots.
> I tend to sometimes get off track of the OP in this and other forums I belong to, and don't want to give the impression of hijacking the thread...


For me usually, it's because a pic won't post.


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## Kawicrash (Aug 21, 2018)

Just read in our city electrical bylaw that in a single dwelling the bonding conductor of the cable supplying the appliance is suitable to bond the interior gas piping system. 10-700c


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

HackWork said:


> five.five-six, Be aware that this discussion seems to all be about metal gas pipe. CSST is different and generally requires a bond near the entrance. Even if the CSST is used far downstream in the house, the bond still needs to be near where the gas pipe enters the house.



It’s all black pipe as far as I can tell except for a small CSST jumper at the water heater but I don’t even think that counts.

But that’s good info about the yellow stuff.


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

So, I got called on not having a grounding bushing. Does the bushing have to be on the 2screw that the #4 ground comes in on? Can I just bond it to a short run from the ground buss bar?

TIA


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

five.five-six said:


> So, I got called on not having a grounding bushing. Does the bushing have to be on the 2screw that the #4 ground comes in on? Can I just bond it to a short run from the ground buss bar?
> 
> TIA


 Are you trying to say that your inspector requires you to install a bonding bushing on a Romex connector that you brought the GEC into the panel through?

If so, that’s a load of crap. It’s not based in code and it’s idiotic. If you want to just fix it quickly, remove that metal Romex connector and install a plastic button connector.

Now if you have a metallic service entrance raceway, You will need to use a bonding bushing on that. Run a number 4 from there to the ground bar.


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

My gec is #4 stranded armor cable and it comes in through a Romex connector.

My service entrance is 2” GRC but it goes into a hub. There’s no place to screw on a bonding bushing :shrug:

I wasn’t there for inspection, this is what the GC told me


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

five.five-six said:


> My gec is #4 stranded armor cable and it comes in through a Romex connector.
> 
> My service entrance is 2” GRC but it goes into a hub. There’s no place to screw on a bonding bushing :shrug:
> 
> I wasn’t there for inspection, this is what the GC told me



What connects the meter and panel? Many utilities require any metal conduit entering the meter to have a bonding bushing.


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

CoolWill said:


> What connects the meter and panel? Many utilities require any metal conduit entering the meter to have a bonding bushing.


It’s a meter socket panel combo. Those things are common almost to the point of exclusivity in single family dwellings in california.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

five.five-six said:


> It’s a meter socket panel combo. Those things are common almost to the point of exclusivity in single family dwellings in california.


Yes, so the riser going into a hub is fine, no bonded bushing needed of course.

I assume you are in one of those areas of CA that require armored GEC. The only time I have ever seen that is when it was installed 60+ years ago. I believe you are supposed to bond both ends of the armor in approved connectors. Even clamps for ground rods and water pipes have provisions to bond the armor. 

In this instance it will take you a few minutes and a $2.50 bonding bushing off the shelf at Home Depot to just fix it, so I would do that. A #10 to the ground bar would probably work fine, but I might use a scrap piece of #6 just because I have so much of it.


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

Well then I’m powering the house down. 

Not going to leave everything hot and ungrounded while I preform this 


Makes absolutly 0 sense. The grounding conductor is in contact with the armor for 60 feet, that’s about as bounced as you can get 

I’m using #10 because that’s what I have on my truck today.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Give the inspector a call and see what he says. I think it's silly.


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

I wish, but he’s gone for the day and GC needs it done by tuesday and tomorrow I have a commercial customer with a temp office trailer being dropped off I need to spend a few days on so their workers aren’t out of a job. 


[rock] me [hard place]


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

I stopped installing the armored grounds because I was having issues finding a connector listed for use with it. I had to just give up fighting with the AHJ on it. Only one area we do work in cared much about it, but 95% of our work is in that area, so we had to just give up.

Funny enough I see other EC's getting away with it all the time, I think maybe they don't like me. 

If I am in an area I think they will call me on subject to damage, I just run it in PVC SCH 80. Otherwise just the ground.


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

He called me back and wha the wanted it for was to bond the EGC to the armor at the 2 screw which is rediculious as it is running inside and bonded again at the ground rod clamp. 

Oh well, it’s done


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## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

So he wanted your two-screw to be a Kenny clamp...

hmmm

Cheers
John


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Navyguy said:


> So he wanted your two-screw to be a Kenny clamp...
> 
> hmmm
> 
> ...


I don't think Kenny clamp makes a model that bonds the armor on armored GEC.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

What is a kenny clamp?


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

CoolWill said:


> What is a kenny clamp?


I think it's like a Sky Hook, or California, not a real thing.


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

CoolWill said:


> What is a kenny clamp?


https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1&q=kenny+clamp


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

Bird dog said:


> https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1&q=kenny+clamp



But... why?


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## Kawicrash (Aug 21, 2018)

Huh, I've never seen one of those. We always just use a CI70 or L-16.
That looks like a Pyro (MI) connector. Must be expensive??


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

CoolWill said:


> But... why?


idk...never heard of it until some months ago on this forum.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

Kawicrash said:


> Huh, I've never seen one of those. We always just use a CI70 or L-16.
> That looks like a Pyro (MI) connector. Must be expensive??



Way more expensive than the hole already provided by the panel manufacturer.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

CoolWill said:


> Way more expensive than the hole already provided by the panel manufacturer.


I thought that hole was to mount the antenna.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

splatz said:


> I thought that hole was to mount the antenna.


That hole is to pee thru if there is a fire inside of the panel/meter.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

HackWork said:


> That hole is to pee thru if there is a fire inside of the panel/meter.


I'm going to need a bigger hole.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

splatz said:


> I'm going to need a bigger hole.


I said "pee thru". You only need to smoosh up against it, no insertion necessary.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

HackWork said:


> I said "pee thru". You only need to smoosh up against it, no insertion necessary.



How will that work if there's a #4 ground in it? Then what?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

CoolWill said:


> How will that work if there's a #4 ground in it? Then what?


There's always the drain holes.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

HackWork said:


> There's always the drain holes.



There's drain holes!?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

CoolWill said:


> There's drain holes!?


Yes, a very handsome and awesome member here confirmed it with the manufacturers and even drew up pictures for the less intelligent to understand.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

HackWork said:


> Yes, a very handsome and awesome member here confirmed it with the manufacturers and even drew up pictures for the less intelligent to understand.



Are you sure those aren't just holes to insert a ground wire through? After a good drilling and coat of enamel, that is?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

CoolWill said:


> Are you sure those aren't just holes to insert a ground wire through? After a good drilling and coat of enamel, that is?


No, the 1/4"-3/8" holes are for the ground wires. The holes in the corners are for drainage.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

HackWork said:


> No, the 1/4"-3/8" holes are for the ground wires. The holes in the corners are for drainage.



I think I'll call my regional sales rep to confirm this.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

CoolWill said:


> I think I'll call my regional sales rep to confirm this.


You should probably confirm with a dozen manufacturers as well, let us know what you find out.


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

Bird dog said:


> https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1&q=kenny+clamp


I don’t think that would satisfy this AHJ

The 2 screw clamp bonds to the armor (armuor for our kanadian friends) the set screw on the grounding bushing bonds the bushing to the 2 screw connector and the lug bonds the EGC to the bonding bushing. 

At least I hope that’s what he wanted or I’ll be returning


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

HackWork said:


> No, the 1/4"-3/8" holes are for the ground wires. The holes in the corners are for drainage.



Well, well, well... I did a quick Google search, and found this post on this very forum. I haven't read it all yet, because its over 50 pages, but it seems you participated in it. From what I've read so far, you got your azz handed to you. Here's where it is confirmed that your statement about the 1/4" hole is debunked:


https://www.electriciantalk.com/f2/gec-entering-enclosure-239450/index5/#post4627138


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

CoolWill said:


> Well, well, well... I did a quick Google search, and found this post on this very forum. I haven't read it all yet, because its over 50 pages, but it seems you participated in it. From what I've read so far, you got your azz handed to you. Here's where it is confirmed that your statement about the 1/4" hole is debunked:
> 
> 
> https://www.electriciantalk.com/f2/gec-entering-enclosure-239450/index5/#post4627138


:sad::sad::sad:


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## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

Ut Oh... or however you spell it...

<going to get some to eat and drink while this happens>

This is my fault, sorry eh...

Cheers
John


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

HackWork said:


> :sad::sad::sad:



I'm on page 11 now... And I have to say this is some of the best stuff I've ever read. I have read the greats: Keats, Twain, Tolstoy, the Bible... but this is one for the ages. I can't wait to see how it ends!


There's a lot of names in the thread I haven't seen here since I've joined. What happened to them? Do they still come around?


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

CoolWill said:


> Well, well, well... I did a quick Google search, and found this post on this very forum. I haven't read it all yet, because its over 50 pages, but it seems you participated in it. From what I've read so far, you got your azz handed to you. Here's where it is confirmed that your statement about the 1/4" hole is debunked:
> 
> 
> https://www.electriciantalk.com/f2/gec-entering-enclosure-239450/index5/#post4627138


This is a remarkable coincidence, isn't it? I mean what are the odds.


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## Chaz (Aug 11, 2018)

In my area, the city inspectors said it was fine, but we had one county guy come and wouldn’t let us do that. He said it was “inaccessible”. Argued that it was accessible but not readily accessible, still didn’t allow it. I think it’s fine but depends on the inspector


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## electricguy (Mar 22, 2007)

99cents said:


> Grounding is a different beast down south. We just take it to the supply side of the water meter and call it a day. They’re more complicated down there. They also have to bond metallic water lines. We only do gas lines.



We have to bond copper waste lines when doing a service upgrade , glad i dont see much steel lines anymore


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

CoolWill said:


> I'm on page 11 now... And I have to say this is some of the best stuff I've ever read. I have read the greats: Keats, Twain, Tolstoy, the Bible... but this is one for the ages. I can't wait to see how it ends!
> 
> 
> There's a lot of names in the thread I haven't seen here since I've joined. *What happened to them?* Do they still come around?


They've passed on... due to lightning strikes to their poorly bonded work. :vs_OMG:


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

Inspector did accept it. IMO, it’s better protected from physical damage under the house.


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

First off, thanks for all the help. I’m starting to get service change outs and I like doing them, I just need to figure out how to make money at them LOL

I think I read that if the house has been re piped in pex, no need to bond hot and cold on the water heater... correct?



4/O al is OK for a 200A service?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

five.five-six said:


> First off, thanks for all the help. I’m starting to get service change outs and I like doing them, I just need to figure out how to make money at them LOL


 Service changes sell at a premium. Meaning, add up your costs like you normally would for typical electrical work. The number you come up with will be less than you can actually get for the job.



> I think I read that if the house has been re piped in pex, no need to bond hot and cold on the water heater... correct?


 There is no specific requirement to bond the hot and cold at the water heater, but there is a requirement to keep it electrically continuous or some such wording. If you have Pex both going into and out of a water heater, then of course you don't bond it. But if there is any copper pipe going in I would just throw on a bond. I have a bunch of pipe clamps with a scrap piece of #2 between them already made up and ready to go, takes 3 minutes. 

Even with Pex in the house, if there is a metallic water main you still need to bond that since it will be an electrode. And run a jumper over the water meter as well.



> 4/O al is OK for a 200A service?


 I use 4/0 Al for the hots and 2/0 for the neutral. Using 2/0 for the neutral makes it foolproof, no need to worry about ringing out the conductors. 

I also use #2 Al for the water pipe GEC, it's a third of the price of #4 copper. #6 copper for the ground rods, copper is required since it's within 18" of the earth. Attach an intersystem bonding block to one of the GECs near the meter outside or the main panel inside.


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

HackWork said:


> I also use #2 Al for the water pipe GEC, it's a third of the price of #4 copper. #6 copper for the ground rods, copper is required since it's within 18" of the earth. Attach an intersystem bonding block to one of the GECs near the meter outside or the main panel inside.


I was thinking I would need to run armor cable since to get to the water service, I will have to run in the wall of an unfinished (no Sheetrock) attached garage. 

I really like the idea of 1/3 the price, I only charged $4k to install new 200A surface mount panel and convert the existing meter socket combo panel to a subpanel and refeed it. I think my apprentice may make more on this job than I do  Does #2 AL fit in the standard ground clamps?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Yes, #2 fits into normal pipe clamps. We don’t have to protect the GEC here so I run it exposed thru unfinished basements or finished garages.


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