# GFCIs, hair dryers and sinks full of water.



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Will dropping a plugged-in hair dryer into a sink full of water cause the GFCI to trip?


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

Since you didn't say tap water, I would say no. Water in it's purest form (h2o) is non conductive.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

OK, tap water. Not some lab-grade purified water. The stuff that comes out of your faucet.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

I am going maybe.

It depends if there is a grounding means .... like a grounded metal drain.

I am going to assume any sink water has enough crap in it to be conductive.


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

If it did, (trip the gfi) you wouldn't be asking the question is my theory.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Bkessler said:


> If it did, (trip the gfi) you wouldn't be asking the question is my theory.



I just want to get a consensus of the members. :whistling2:


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

480sparky said:


> I just want to get a consensus of the members. :whistling2:


Put, "I should hope so" as an option.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

It's not black-and-white, so my answer isn't either:

It's possible, without unusual circumstances, to drop a hairdryer in a sink full of water and not trip a GFCI. Doesn't mean it will always happen that way, though.

-John


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

Is the hair dryer supplied with an equipment grounding conductor or is it a 2 wire polarized cord?

If the hair dryer is a 2 wire appliance and there is no grounded object in the sink such as a drain then the hair dryer will not trip a GFCI. 

If the hair dryer is a 3 wire grounded appliance then it will trip a GFCI.

Chris


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Grounded GFCI.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

If you drop it in a plastic bucket full of water, I would expect the good old tap water to have enough conductive particles to short the hot to neutral and trip the OCP.
I would not expect any of the current to go to ground and be sensed as missing and trip the GFCI.

With that said, I am with Bob and think the sink drain connection might be our only path to ground.


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

480sparky said:


> Grounded GFCI.


I was talking about the hair dryer itself, is it a 2 wire or 3 wire dryer?

Chris


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

raider1 said:


> I was talking about the hair dryer itself, is it a 2 wire or 3 wire dryer?
> 
> Chris



I don't think I've ever seen a 3-wire cord on a hair dryer.


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## wingz (Mar 21, 2009)

http://www.iaei.org/magazine/featur...standard-or-does-the-egg-precede-the-chicken/

422.41 Cord-and-Plug-Connected Appliances Subject
to Immersion. Cord-and-plug-connected portable, freestanding
hydromassage units and hand-held hair dryers
shall be constructed to provide protection for personnel against electrocution when immersed while in the “on” or
“off” position.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

In a continuing ed class a long time ago, the instructor dropped a normal hair dryer into a plastic tub of water to let the class watch it swim around in the tank. He then changed to a GFI and it tripped the receptacle. The non GFI's receptacle would swim the hair dryer around in circles.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Would it go counter clockwise South of the Equator?


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

mcclary's electrical said:


> In a continuing ed class a long time ago, the instructor dropped a normal hair dryer into a plastic tub of water to let the class watch it swim around in the tank. He then changed to a GFI and it tripped the receptacle. The non GFI's receptacle would swim the hair dryer around in circles.


Was the hair dryer a 2 or 3 wire appliance?

Chris


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

Didn't the Mythbusters have a setback dropping a hd in water? It kept tripping the internal gfci. I think they also has issues with most drains not being a ground path.


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*?*

Hold on...I'll go check

Cletis


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## janagyjr (Feb 7, 2011)

I voted yes but then thought that the dryer might have an immersion detection circuit interrupter (as one of my text books said it was required to have). I haven't seen a hair dryer in so long I'm not sure if modern ones do or don't.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

raider1 said:


> Was the hair dryer a 2 or 3 wire appliance?
> 
> Chris


 
I don't know if he mentioned. It was a fairly large class and I asked no questions. He may have even bonded the water without telling us to facilitate the fault current.


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

As long as the water was isolated from ground then you cannot create a "ground" fault. The water just becomes part of the 'circuit' and will return on the neutral.


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

Plastic drains? Ask Joe T.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

I'm going with maybe too. It depends on the conditions.


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## John (Jan 22, 2007)

48% chance it will
48% chance it won't
4% chance something else will happen:whistling2:


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

Cletis said:


> Hold on...I'll go check
> 
> Cletis


 Well...............what is the verdict?


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## local5wireslayer (Feb 24, 2011)

480sparky said:


> Will dropping a plugged-in hair dryer into a sink full of water cause the GFCI to trip?


We had a guy do a test in one of our classes involving that... he took a 5gallon bucket of water... hair dryer... gfci 3 way splittet and a extension cord... when he dropped the hair dryer into the bucket it never tripped... it actually ran for a few seconds... in your house it actually depends on how everything is grounded... in pa some older houses actually have their grounds ran with the plumbing head but the older places the got remodeled with pvc... so where's the ground?


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

What, You didn't get enough of Joe Tedesco's shenanigans in that hotel room?

~Matt


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## s.kelly (Mar 20, 2009)

Is this just a poll,or do you have a test rigged up waiting on enough interest:thumbsup:

If so are you posting answer only or a video link?


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## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

I've tried it. 
With modern plumbing, plastic drains and the like, it will not trip. In fact it will run.


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## janagyjr (Feb 7, 2011)

mattsilkwood said:


> I've tried it.
> With modern plumbing, plastic drains and the like, it will not trip. In fact it will run.


What about the IDCI that's supposed to be installed in the dryer itself (or the cord)? Wouldn't it trip?

Yes, I know that's not the GFCI receptacle in question, but now I'm curious.


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## local5wireslayer (Feb 24, 2011)

mattsilkwood said:


> I've tried it.
> With modern plumbing, plastic drains and the like, it will not trip. In fact it will run.


Its kinda scary... now put youself in place of the hairdryer... hmmmm... as soon as u create some sort of ground... poof your dead


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## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

janagyjr said:


> What about the IDCI that's supposed to be installed in the dryer itself (or the cord)? Wouldn't it trip?
> 
> Yes, I know that's not the GFCI receptacle in question, but now I'm curious.


 I've never done it with a new hair dryer so I don't know.


local5wireslayer said:


> Its kinda scary... now put youself in place of the hairdryer... hmmmm... as soon as u create some sort of ground... poof your dead


 Not really, you can stick your hand it the sink and pick it up also. 
If you do create a path to ground then the GFCI will kick out and you will recieve a 5ma shock.

Rewire hit it dead on as to why this works. 
The way a GCFI works is it monitors the amperage on the hot and the neutral, if there is a difference of 5ma then the difference is going to ground (or voltage drop on a long cord).

In a sink full of water where there is no path to ground there is no way to create a ground fault.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

Hmm. I don't know!

I don't think most hair dryers have an EGC connection. So the only path to ground would be through the water/pipe/etc., assuming those had an effective enough path back to the source to allow 4-6 mA (or more) to flow.

Otherwise there would be only the line-neutral short which would trip the circuit breaker. Hopefully. Or else the built-in protective thingie on the hair dryer cord.


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## StevenLeuck (Feb 26, 2011)

To many parameters involved to answer anything but "maybe".
* Water Purity
* Grounded parts in the sink
* Type of GFCI protection
* Whether or not a person is touching the water at the same time and they are grounded.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

OK, I'll drop the other shoe.

The question is:

Will a hair dryer, dropped into a sink full of water, trip a GFCI?



Answer:


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## local5wireslayer (Feb 24, 2011)

erics37 said:


> Hmm. I don't know!
> 
> I don't think most hair dryers have an EGC connection. So the only path to ground would be through the water/pipe/etc., assuming those had an effective enough path back to the source to allow 4-6 mA (or more) to flow.
> 
> Otherwise there would be only the line-neutral short which would trip the circuit breaker. Hopefully. Or else the built-in protective thingie on the hair dryer cord.


Agreed but the problem here is the fact that the panel has no ground... so therefore the gfci never actually works... correct?


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## janagyjr (Feb 7, 2011)

mattsilkwood said:


> I've never done it with a new hair dryer so I don't know.


It seems odd if they would stop making dryers with them. I seem to remember some older hair dryers from when I was a kid (circa the 1980s) that had a block with a "test/reset" button on it and I never knew what it was (I just liked pushing the buttons). Never did drop it in water on purpose, I had always heard that doing so would kill you and I have this strange desire to live as long as I can.


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## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

local5wireslayer said:


> Agreed but the problem here is the fact that the panel has no ground... so therefore the gfci never actually works... correct?


 NO! A GFCI doesn't need a ground to work. It monitors the hot and the neutral. Without a path to ground in the sink there is no way to get a ground fault.


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## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

janagyjr said:


> It seems odd if they would stop making dryers with them. I seem to remember some older hair dryers from when I was a kid (circa the 1980s) that had a block with a "test/reset" button on it and I never knew what it was (I just liked pushing the buttons). Never did drop it in water on purpose, I had always heard that doing so would kill you and I have this strange desire to live as long as I can.


 That's a GFCI.


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## StevenLeuck (Feb 26, 2011)

Hmmmmm.....


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

Of course it wont trip - there is no other place for the electrons to go other than back to the source. The drain pipe is most likely plastic, so no way for electrons to flow that way.

I do wonder what would happen if he turned on the faucet with the hair dryer in the sink... possibly there could be enough current flow to travel up the water stream and to the bonded water pipes, therefore tripping the gfci because of the unbalance. Of course unless that house has CPVC pipes.

~Matt


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## vickieB (Feb 21, 2011)

*Hair Dryer*

Every hairdryer I have bought in the past 5 to ten years has had its own gfci on it. So the one on the cord itself should turn it off. Someone with an old hair dryer....dont think it would trip the gfci cause there is no ground on cord can not detect it. Only if there is a surge then will it trip the gfci in the bathroom.


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## janagyjr (Feb 7, 2011)

mattsilkwood said:


> That's a GFCI.


Than what is this immersion detection circuit interrupter stuff that my books are talking about?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

vickieB said:


> Every hairdryer I have bought in the past 5 to ten years has had its own gfci on it. So the one on the cord itself should turn it off. Someone with an old hair dryer....dont think it would trip the gfci cause there is no ground on cord can not detect it.


So what's the difference between a GFCI in the wall and a GFCI built into the cord?


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

local5wireslayer said:


> Agreed but the problem here is the fact that the panel has no ground... so therefore the gfci never actually works... correct?


The panel doesn't need a ground for the GFCI to work. All that needs to happen for a GFCI to trip is for a few milliamps of current to take a path back to the source OTHER than the path it's supposed to take. Whether it's through the water, through the plumbing, through the dirt, at least a couple of electrons need to go where they shouldn't be for the GFCI to trip.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

480sparky said:


> So what's the difference between a GFCI in the wall and a GFCI built into the cord?


One's built into the wall and one's built onto a cord. Duh.


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## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

vickieB said:


> Every hairdryer I have bought in the past 5 to ten years has had its own gfci on it. So the one on the cord itself should turn it off. Someone with an old hair dryer....dont think it would trip the gfci cause there is no ground on cord can not detect it. Only if there is a surge then will it trip the gfci in the bathroom.


 Nope.:no:


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## lefleuron (May 22, 2010)

I voted yes, and here is my reasoning

The element has a predetermined resistance (inductive reactance), the instant the dryer hit the water- a new path was developed. The neutral should have picked this up, and I thought the gfci would trip.

Maybe the time wasn't long enough, but I thought gfci tripped within 3 cycles?:001_huh:


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## janagyjr (Feb 7, 2011)

lefleuron said:


> I voted yes, and here is my reasoning
> 
> The element has a predetermined resistance (inductive reactance), the instant the dryer hit the water- a new path was developed. The neutral should have picked this up, and I thought the gfci would trip.
> 
> Maybe the time wasn't long enough, but I thought gfci tripped within 3 cycles?:001_huh:


several milliseconds was the number I was quoted (I forget how many, I could look it up in my notes....nah).


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

lefleuron said:


> I voted yes, and here is my reasoning
> 
> The element has a predetermined resistance (inductive reactance), the instant the dryer hit the water- a new path was developed. The neutral should have picked this up, and I thought the gfci would trip.
> 
> Maybe the time wasn't long enough, but I thought gfci tripped within 3 cycles?:001_huh:



So where does this 'new path' lead to?


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## janagyjr (Feb 7, 2011)

480sparky said:


> So where does this 'new path' lead to?


Terabithia??:whistling2:


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## 3xdad (Jan 25, 2011)

Warning: The topics covered on this site include activities in which there exists the potential for serious injury or death. ElectrcianTalk.com DOES NOT guarantee the accuracy or completeness of any information contained on this site. Always use proper safety precaution and reference reliable outside sources before attempting to drown hairdryers.:thumbup:

Is that 480 in the vid? If so, now i have a voice to go with the hackwagon dude.


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## local5wireslayer (Feb 24, 2011)

mattsilkwood said:


> NO! A GFCI doesn't need a ground to work. It monitors the hot and the neutral. Without a path to ground in the sink there is no way to get a ground fault.


Even if the panel is bonded?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

local5wireslayer said:


> Even if the panel is bonded?



GFCIs _do not_ need a ground to operate. They couldn't care less if the panel is bonded or not.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

3xdad said:


> ...............Is that 480 in the vid? If so, now i have a voice to go with the hackwagon dude.


'Tis me. I wanted to not only test the "GFCI will trip" theory, but my new DSLR does HD videos. :whistling2:


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## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

local5wireslayer said:


> Even if the panel is bonded?


 Even if the panel is bonded.


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## garfield (Jul 30, 2009)

I want to see the new video where someone willing to get shocked grounds themselves and sticks a hand in the sink to trip the gfi


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## janagyjr (Feb 7, 2011)

I'll pass.


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## The_Modifier (Oct 24, 2009)

william1978 said:


> Well...............what is the verdict?


Uh did anyone tell Cletus to let go of the hairdryer? :laughing::jester::laughing:


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

480sparky said:


> 'Tis me. I wanted to not only test the "GFCI will trip" theory, but my new DSLR does HD videos. :whistling2:


I'm wondering why the water didn't create a short circuit between the hot and neutral in the hair dryer. Maybe those terminations are sealed in a compartment or something. Or maybe you have very pure tap water :laughing:


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## local5wireslayer (Feb 24, 2011)

erics37 said:


> I'm wondering why the water didn't create a short circuit between the hot and neutral in the hair dryer. Maybe those terminations are sealed in a compartment or something. Or maybe you have very pure tap water :laughing:


Well in our case it did eventually... it triped the breaker not the gfi


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## Frank Mc (Nov 7, 2010)

Hi Guys

On the inventors show here a few years ago a guy did a similar demo dropping a hair dryer into a bath...The rcd (gfci) didnt trip....He did a demo using his invention RVD (residual voltage detector)....His device tripped...

http://www.abc.net.au/tv/newinventors/txt/s1356442.htm

Heres a link to his site

http://www.protectelec.com.au/pages/index.php

HTH
Frank


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

janagyjr said:


> several milliseconds was the number I was quoted (I forget how many, I could look it up in my notes....nah).


The maximum permitted time (per UL standard) to trip in seconds is equal to the quantity (20/fault current in milliamps) raised to the 1.43 power. The application of this formula would permit a 7 second trip time for a 5 mA ground fault.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

In order to calibrate this experiment, first I need to grow some hair since its a hair dryer. Don't hold your breath waiting though....


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

erics37 said:


> I'm wondering why the water didn't create a short circuit between the hot and neutral in the hair dryer. Maybe those terminations are sealed in a compartment or something. Or maybe you have very pure tap water :laughing:


I have never seen tap water that was conductive enough to cause the OCPD to trip when you put a cord end into the water.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> I have never seen tap water that was conductive enough to cause the OCPD to trip when you put a cord end into the water.


 It's surprising, but true: I've seen a terminal box on a 240V water heater fill up, with both 120V splices submerged, and it ran that way for who knows how long before I found it without tripping the breaker.

-John


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## garfield (Jul 30, 2009)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> I have never seen tap water that was conductive enough to cause the OCPD to trip when you put a cord end into the water.


A body has a lot more surface area than a cord end and requires very little current to stop a heart.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Joe Tedesco has an old video he's shared from time to time of a GFCI not tripping in a sink full of water. It needs a path to ground, whether it be a grounded metal drain or a grounded person sticking their hand in the water, in order to trip the GFCI. That would require some astoundingly conductive water, however. 

An immersion detector is the device employed in appliances like electric skillets to detect that the device has been placed underwater.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> Joe Tedesco has an old video he's shared from time to time of a GFCI not tripping in a sink full of water. It needs a path to ground, whether it be a grounded metal drain or a grounded person sticking their hand in the water, in order to trip the GFCI.


Exactly what I was hinting at in my post on page 2. http://www.electriciantalk.com/f2/gfcis-hair-dryers-sinks-full-water-21274/index2/#post391196

~Matt


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

garfield said:


> A body has a lot more surface area than a cord end and requires very little current to stop a heart.


What does that have to do with the water being conductive enough to cause enough current to flow so the OCPD opens the circuit?


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> I have never seen tap water that was conductive enough to cause the OCPD to trip when you put a cord end into the water.


I remember being on a water damage call where a power strip was floating in about 3' of nasty water in the basement with the light in the switch on the power strip still illuminated. Everything floating in that basement full of water was still energized.... until I took the meter out and put a glass in it.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

MDShunk said:


> Joe Tedesco has an old video he's shared from time to time of a GFCI not tripping in a sink full of water. It needs a path to ground, whether it be a grounded metal drain or a grounded person sticking their hand in the water, in order to trip the GFCI. That would require some astoundingly conductive water, however.


I think in most cases, tap water, where in contact with a grounded metal object, will be conductive enough to cause a GFCI to trip.



> An immersion detector is the device employed in appliances like electric skillets to detect that the device has been placed underwater.


IDCIs (Immersion Detection Circuit Interrupter) are required by UL standard 859 for hair dryers. 
See page 2 of this document for a description of an IDCI.


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## I_get_shocked (Apr 6, 2009)

I have been taught that the device on the end of hair dryers is a GFCI. Some books claim that the device is a IDCI which is used to de-energize the supply when a liquid causes a conductive path between a live part and a sensor

So which is it, is it a ground fault interrupter, or a immersion detection circuit interrupter???


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

TOOL_5150 said:


> What, You didn't get enough of Joe Tedesco's shenanigans in that hotel room?




That just made me all creeped out ......... was Miller there with his tool?


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

I_get_shocked said:


> I have been taught that the device on the end of hair dryers is a GFCI. Some books claim that the device is a IDCI which is used to de-energize the supply when a liquid causes a conductive path between a live part and a sensor
> 
> So which is it, is it a ground fault interrupter, or a immersion detection circuit interrupter???


Read the post right above yours


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

I don't have enough hair to use a hair dryer, so I am safe and don't care. I will let you hippies fight it out.:nerd:


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## janagyjr (Feb 7, 2011)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> IDCIs (Immersion Detection Circuit Interrupter) are required by UL standard 859 for hair dryers.
> See page 2 of this document for a description of an IDCI.


Thank you for the link.


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## den (Mar 28, 2009)

When I worked for the poco we had a lot of river cabin services that would get underwater in a flood and none of them would trip the ocpd. They would stay hot until the river would go back down and we could get to them to check them. A steam type humidifier is just a hot and a neutral sticking in water. A little salt in the water really makes them cook. I have also seen in Belize where they dont use water heaters but have a water going thru a heated shower head which is just a resistance wire in the water flow to heat the water as it comes out. Our old wash rack at work had a gfci recepticle in the wall and would get sprayed full force all the time and never tripped ( not saying that is a smart idea)


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## lefleuron (May 22, 2010)

> I'm wondering why the water didn't create a short circuit between the hot and neutral in the hair dryer. Maybe those terminations are sealed in a compartment or something. Or maybe you have very pure tap water :laughing:
> __________________
> - Eric


 This is exactly what I thought. All our lives we are taught that water is a great conductor. I figured the current would rocket up until the OCPD tripped- but before that happened the GFCI would sense the rapid, constant change and trip out first.:no:

I thought this was the EXACT type of situation these things were made for. :blink:


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## janagyjr (Feb 7, 2011)

lefleuron said:


> This is exactly what I thought. All our lives we are taught that water is a great conductor. I figured the current would rocket up until the OCPD tripped- but before that happened the GFCI would sense the rapid, constant change and trip out first.:no:
> 
> I thought this was the EXACT type of situation these things were made for. :blink:


Honestly, so did I.


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

480sparky said:


> OK, I'll drop the other shoe.
> 
> The question is:
> 
> ...


 who is the girl talking in the video?


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## janagyjr (Feb 7, 2011)

Mr Rewire said:


> who is the girl talking in the video?


Ouch.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

janagyjr said:


> Ouch.



He wants to act like a child. I just ignore him.


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

Ken, 

A few observations:

It is true. You are old. You sound like your in your 50's.

A Leviton GFCI? I thought I remember you knocking Leviton devices.

You need to start charging more. You really need to upgrade that 1978 bathroom faucet.

Thanks for the video.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

knowshorts said:


> Ken,
> 
> A few observations:
> 
> ...



I _am_ in my 50's. The GFCI was there when I bought the place, and it works... that's all I care about. Same for the faucet.


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

janagyjr said:


> Ouch.


 I can't pass the easy ones :laughing:


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

lefleuron said:


> This is exactly what I thought. All our lives we are taught that water is a great conductor. I figured the current would rocket up until the OCPD tripped- but before that happened the GFCI would sense the rapid, constant change and trip out first.:no:
> 
> I thought this was the EXACT type of situation these things were made for. :blink:


Water is actually a poor conductor, but it is still a good enough conductor to carry a fatal amount of current.
The GFCI only does one thing...looks for current flow outside of the two circuit conductors. A device placed in water that does not have a path to ground will not cause current to flow outside of the two circuit conductors and will not trip. There will be voltage gradients in the water that could be fatal under the right conditions. 
Maybe everything should have a 3 wire cord, that way when the GFIC protected device falls into the water, there will be a path other than the two circuit conductors and the GFCI will open the circuit.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

What kind of drains are under that sink?


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## mdfriday (May 14, 2007)

I would bet at my house it would. I am on a well....high iron content in the water.


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

It would trip at my house I have all cast iron drains with no plastic.


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## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

lefleuron said:


> This is exactly what I thought. All our lives we are taught that water is a great conductor. I figured the current would rocket up until the OCPD tripped- but before that happened the GFCI would sense the rapid, constant change and trip out first.:no:
> 
> I thought this was the EXACT type of situation these things were made for. :blink:


 Here is a safe simple lab test to show you why this doesn't happen. 

Take a glass of tap water and stick the probes of your ohmmeter in it. 
If you even get a reading it will be very high, by using Ohms law you can calculate how much current will flow.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

BBQ said:


> That just made me all creeped out ......... was Miller there with his tool?


you bet he was!:laughing:

~Matt


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

This hair dryer won't trip the GFCI..:laughing:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

HARRY304E said:


> This hair dryer won't trip the GFCI..:laughing:


But that card that disappears behind the mirror sure got my attention. :whistling2:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

480sparky said:


> But that card that disappears behind the mirror sure got my attention. :whistling2:


Thats the charger for the hair dryer..maybe that will fall in the water..:laughing:


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## Bama (Dec 17, 2010)

good grief charlie brown, i hope so or otherwise why bother spending the xtra $ on the GFCI receptacle?:001_huh:... Bob, nice avatar. You on that new drug...CHARLIE SHEEN!


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Bama said:


> ........... Bob, nice avatar. You on that new drug...CHARLIE SHEEN!


Yes..................


'cause he's a WINNER! :laughing:


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## JohnR (Apr 12, 2010)

480, I am thinking that if you had left the water running, It would have tripped, or if your sink drain was metal going to cast it would have tripped. As it is, the likely hood that your drain is metal is fairly small. With the water running, you would have had a waterbond all the way back to the earth bond.

Try it again with the water running this time.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

JohnR said:


> ............Try it again with the water running this time.



Won't make a difference..... plumbing is all plastic.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Cletis said:


> Hold on...I'll go check
> Cletis


Well Cletis may have answered by not returning after checking it out. Some one please call 911 and send them to Cletis home. :laughing:

Seriously I also believe it depends on whether the drain is metallic and grounded.

I have heard of panel boxes being underwater during floods and the power still on. Not GFCI but still impressive. I wonder whether gfci's would even trip in that case.


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## Foestauf (Jan 5, 2011)

Ok here we go. Gfci monitor the flow of current from the ungrounded to the grounded conductor. If there is an imbalance of around 4 milliamperes it will trip. 
So if there is a path for the current to reach earth other than the grounded conductor the gfi will trip. 
So if you have a two wire device submerged in water with no other path to ground such as a human, copper pipes etc, no it will not trip. 
Now the sink full of water is energized, stick your hand into water and give it a new return path( don't be completely insulated). The gfi will sense a current load on the neutral has dropped and the load on the line increased, it will trip. 

Keep in mind this is all in theory so I myself will not attempt this.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

JohnR said:


> 480, I am thinking that if you had left the water running, It would have tripped, or if your sink drain was metal going to cast it would have tripped. As it is, the likely hood that your drain is metal is fairly small. With the water running, you would have had a waterbond all the way back to the earth bond.
> 
> Try it again with the water running this time.


I have all copper water piping in my house and a wire connected ungrounded conductor to the load side of a GFCI and placed in the running water. The GFCI did not trip.


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## electronasized (Mar 4, 2011)

the gfi should trip granted that it is a 120v hair dryer and that it is plugged in to the vanity rec. something about the question sounds a little fishy if It didnt trip the gfi in which this has been tested then millions of dollars have been wasted on gfis and I do believe in ground fault protection. it saves lives:detective:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

electronasized said:


> the gfi should trip granted that it is a 120v hair dryer and that it is plugged in to the vanity rec. something about the question sounds a little fishy if It didnt trip the gfi in which this has been tested then millions of dollars have been wasted on gfis and I do believe in ground fault protection. it saves lives:detective:



The reason it didn't is because there was no ground fault.


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## Joe Tedesco (Mar 25, 2007)

*Here;s the rest of the story!*

The ALCI and GFCI did not work! 






Stay tuned, more will follow.


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## Joe Tedesco (Mar 25, 2007)

*Dryer in a sink*


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## forgotflying (Mar 2, 2011)

Wonder what happens with an AFCI


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## janagyjr (Feb 7, 2011)

Scary stuff.


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## doubleoh7 (Dec 5, 2009)

janagyjr said:


> Scary stuff.


 


I'm afraid of clowns.


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## janagyjr (Feb 7, 2011)

doubleoh7 said:


> I'm afraid of clowns.


You should be.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

But let's also not lose sight of the bigger picture: The GFCI is designed to reduce the severity of electrical shock someone experiences, and nobody is being shocked in these videos.

In these cases, it's easy to say "The GFCI isn't working!" but put a grounded conductor in the water (like someone might if they put their hand in to grab their hair-dryer) and see if the GFCI trips. When it does, then it has done it's job and serves it's intended purpose.

If it didn't, that's when we'd have a legitimate problem.

-John


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## janagyjr (Feb 7, 2011)

Big John said:


> But let's also not lose sight of the bigger picture: The GFCI is designed to reduce the severity of electrical shock someone experiences, and nobody is being shocked in these videos.
> 
> In these cases, it's easy to say "The GFCI isn't working!" but put a grounded conductor in the water (like someone might if they put their hand in to grab their hair-dryer) and see if the GFCI trips. When it does, then it has done it's job and serves it's intended purpose.
> 
> ...


That doesn't address the issue of the IDCI that's supposed to be in hair dryers. According to what I've read, it is supposed to detect if it's been immersed in water and trip if it has. None of those dryers (especially the one with the big wall unit) did so.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

janagyjr said:


> That doesn't address the issue of the IDCI that's supposed to be in hair dryers. According to what I've read, it is supposed to detect if it's been immersed in water and trip if it has....


 Agreed, but that is a separate issue. 

We know all these dyers were GFCI protected, do we actually know that they have non-functional IDCI's?

-John


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## janagyjr (Feb 7, 2011)

Big John said:


> Agreed, but that is a separate issue.
> 
> We know all these dyers were GFCI protected, do we actually know that they have non-functional IDCI's?
> 
> -John


True, it is a separate, but I feel related, issue.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Big John said:


> .......... The GFCI is designed to reduce the severity of electrical shock someone experiences, and nobody is being shocked in these videos............


GFCIs are designed to detect a ground fault. It will not limit the amount of current that flows, only the time until the GFCI opens the circuit. They do not somehow magically reduce a human being shocked to 4-6 mA... if you are part of a ground fault carrying 5 amps, then you will feel the effect of 5 amps of current flowing through you until the GFCI detects the fault and opens the circuit.

No human needs to be shocked for a GFCI to operate. If so, are you volunteering your body to test every GFCI in America?


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

480sparky said:


> GFCIs are designed to detect a ground fault. It will not limit the amount of current that flows, only the time until the GFCI opens the circuit. They do not somehow magically reduce a human being shocked to 4-6 mA... if you are part of a ground fault carrying 5 amps, then you will feel the effect of 5 amps of current flowing through you until the GFCI detects the fault and opens the circuit.


So, what you're saying is that GFCIs will limit the duration of a shock, which will reduce the severity of electrical shock someone experiences? Alright, my mistake, I thought we were talking about how GFCIs reduce the severity of electrical shock someone experiences.


> No human needs to be shocked for a GFCI to operate.


I never said a person needed to be present for them to operate, I said their function was to protect people, so I don't care if they fail to operate when people are not involved.


> ...Are you volunteering your body to test every GFCI in America?


 You're obviously a smart guy, but you sure will go out of your way to pick a fight. :no:

-John


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