# 9 unit plus house 800 amp 1 phase service



## gemini13 (Jan 15, 2009)

Ok recalculation 3 units @ 6912 va 3 units @ 11880 va 3 units @ 10,800 va # is total 4 the 3 units. Plus a house panel I am figureing 10,000 va 4 electric dryers 3,00 for washers @ 100 percent. 
No A/C or Hot water but owner is not sure. I would like to have allowence for the future. 

9- 100 amp panels for units 1 - 100 amp house
600 Amp single phase servie 120/240 or would u go 3 phase 120 / 208

Does this give me future room for ac per unit avg unit is 1,200 sq '


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## Chris Kennedy (Nov 19, 2007)

gemini13 said:


> I was thinking that 2 300 per phase should be good for 800 amps .


Thats good for 570A. Whats the calculated load?


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

400 Cu if you're using the 310.15 B 6 table (2005). but you might wanna do the load calc and see if you can go smaller.


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## Chris Kennedy (Nov 19, 2007)

wildleg said:


> 400 Cu if you're using the 310.15 B 6 table (2005).


You can apply this table to parallel conductors?


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Chris Kennedy said:


> Whats the calculated load?





wildleg said:


> but you might wanna do the load calc and see if you can go smaller.


When you have a single service disconnecting means the conductors can not really be reduced in size other then what 240.4(B) allows.




Chris Kennedy said:


> You can apply this table to parallel conductors?


IMO, no, not at all.


However Don G. has posted some CMP statements to the contrary. I would talk to the inspector before using T310.15(B)(6) to choose parallels from.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

hmmm, I wasn't sure, but I thought you could use it up to 800 (oops ? )


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

gemini13 said:


> I dont have know what sizw wire i need to parallel to disconnect. I dont have code book handy. I was thinking that 2 300 per phase should be good for 800 amps . I was thinking of running it in two 3' masts sisde by side into the disconnect.


You really going to a disconnect first, or to a CT can? Just wondering. I know that some PoCo's put a CT rack on the mast, near the weatherhead. I was mostly wondering where your CT's were going.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

310.15 (b) 6 is for single family dwellings. It does not apply here.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> You really going to a disconnect first, or to a CT can? Just wondering. I know that some PoCo's put a CT rack on the mast, near the weatherhead. I was mostly wondering where your CT's were going.


Why would there be any CTs?

Utility >>> 800 amp service disconnect >>> 10 meters >>> sub panels


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Bob Badger said:


> Why would there be any CTs?
> 
> Utility >>> 800 amp service disconnect >>> 10 meters >>> sub panels


I was thinking 9 bedroom house with one big service. Duh. 9 units, plus a house. Okay, I see.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

mcclary's electrical said:


> 310.15 (b) 6 is for single family dwellings. It does not apply here.


It applies to two-family and multi-family dwellings too, but not for any triple-phase dwelling services.


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## Chris Kennedy (Nov 19, 2007)

mcclary's electrical said:


> 310.15 (b) 6 is for single family dwellings. It does not apply here.





> 310.15(B)(6) 120/240-Volt, 3-Wire, Single-Phase Dwelling Services and Feeders.
> For individual dwelling units of one-family, two-family, and multifamily dwellings, conductors, as listed in Table 310.15(B)(6), shall be permitted as 120/240-volt, 3-wire, single-phase service-entrance conductors, service-lateral conductors, and feeder conductors that serve as the main power feeder to each dwelling unit and are installed in raceway or cable with or without an equipment grounding conductor.


.........


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> 310.15 (b) 6 is for single family dwellings. It does not apply here.


Damn good point, he can not use that table for the service conductors. If the service remains single phase 120/240 he can use it for each units feeder (other than the landlord panel)

But in my area the power company will not supply an 800 amp single phase service.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> It applies to two-family and multi-family dwellings too, but not for any triple-phase dwelling services.


No, not for the service conductors, only the feeders to each unit.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Chris,



> 310.15(B)(6) 120/240-Volt, 3-Wire, Single-Phase Dwelling Services and Feeders.
> 
> 
> *For individual dwelling units of *one-family, two-family, and multifamily dwellings .......


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Bob Badger said:


> No, not for the service conductors, only the feeders to each unit.


Right. _ "For the individual dwelling units of... multifamily dwellings" _That pretty much limits you to using that table for the conductors from the load side of each tenant meter to the tenant panel.


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## Chris Kennedy (Nov 19, 2007)

Ah, I see, thanks guys.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Bob Badger said:


> No, not for the service conductors, only the feeders to each unit.


So I understand this fully...


120/ 208 SEC's are sized to T310.16 but the feeders to each individual "sub panel" can be sized to 310.15 (B)(6). 

Good?


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## Chris Kennedy (Nov 19, 2007)

Did anyone notice that the OP edited post 1?


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> So I understand this fully...
> 
> 
> 120/ 208 SEC's are sized to T310.16 but the feeders to each individual "sub panel" can be sized to 310.15 (B)(6).
> ...


If the service is 208Y/120 you can not use that table at all.

If the service is 120/240 it can be used for each feeder to each individual dwelling unit but the service conductors supplying all these feeders will have to be sized per 310.16


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Chris Kennedy said:


> Did anyone notice that the OP edited post 1?


Yeah, I hate it when people do that. Now, some of this thread makes no sense.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Chris Kennedy said:


> Did anyone notice that the OP edited post 1?


Thanks, I thought I was going nuts. :blink:

This is why we don't allow editing at MH.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Bob Badger said:


> Thanks, I thought I was going nuts. :blink:
> 
> This is why we don't allow editing at MH.


You might be going nuts anyhow, but he did actually change it. 

FYI, editing is locked here too, but only after a few days (might be a week. I forget.) Keeps posts from evaporating, but gives a guy time to remove a regrettable post.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> So I understand this fully...
> 
> 
> 120/ 208 SEC's are sized to T310.16 but the feeders to each individual "sub panel" can be sized to 310.15 (B)(6).
> ...


120/208 is not valid for use with 208 volt system. The title is 120/240, 3 wire single phase dwelling services and feeders.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

there should be an option where the OP can't be edited


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

The first post was changed! Now the first half makes no sense at all. Stop doing that,,,,,,your first post you stated 800 amps.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

wildleg said:


> there should be an option where the OP can't be edited


Yeah, I really don't think he's going to get much help now. That pisses people off.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> You might be going nuts anyhow, but he did actually change it.


I kind of look forward to it. I will be able to be entertained with shiny objects. :laughing:


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> I kind of look forward to it. I will be able to be entertained with shiny objects. :laughing:


I'm already there.


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## bigtoe1340 (Aug 9, 2009)

I would install an 800 amp 3 phase service.

Tony D.
Meade Electric
http://www.meadeelectric.biz


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

800 amps 3 phase 208Y/120 is a hell of a lot of power, almost 300,000 watts, to much for the loads the OP described.

3 units @ 6912 va = 20,736

3 units @ 11880 va = 35,640

3 units @ 10,800 va = 32,400

House panel 10,000 va 


Total 98,776 va

98776/208/1.73= 275 amps

A 300 amp 3 phase 208Y/120 service would be more than adequate if the figures the OP provided are correct.


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## gemini13 (Jan 15, 2009)

*9 unit apt. service*

thank you for all your answers. I am know thinking that I would like to install a 600 amp. service. IO had spoke to the owner of the building today and He said each unit could have A/C instralled in the future. ALL 8 Apt. 100 amp sub panels, with all apt. disconnects at meter base. 1 apt. he said does not have duct work it is a 4 room apt. so I will need base board heaters. I think I will be safe with 600 amps. 120/240 volt single phase.

what parallel 350 mcm service drop to disconnect , what size grounding conductor from disconnect to water pipe, and do I need to up size it if it is more than 100 ft away.


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## gemini13 (Jan 15, 2009)

customer is not sure what he wants tryuing to put bid together quick before he changes his mind and decides to demolish the building.


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## gemini13 (Jan 15, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> The first post was changed! Now the first half makes no sense at all. Stop doing that,,,,,,your first post you stated 800 amps.


 pretend its a new post


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## Chris Kennedy (Nov 19, 2007)

gemini13 said:


> pretend its a new post


No harm, no foul.


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## gemini13 (Jan 15, 2009)

Chris Kennedy said:


> No harm, no foul.


 any suggetions if you read my new post, or updated plans. 

all help would be appreciated


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

gemini13 said:


> what parallel 350 mcm service drop to disconnect ,


Table 310.16



> what size grounding conductor from disconnect to water pipe,


Table 250.66



> and do I need to up size it if it is more than 100 ft away.


I don't know, do you?

Question for you, how long have you been an electrician, and have you ever installed a 600 amp service before? It just seems as if you might be a bit over your had here. Not saying you couldn't do this job, but if you have to ask about sizing conductors for a 600 amp service the question has to be asked. 

Again, I am NOT trying to put you down.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> It just seems as if you might be a bit over your had here. Not saying you couldn't do this job,


I was thinking the same thing.

If it was me, before I went much further I would talk with the power company and see what they are willing to provide. Show them the load calculation and they should be able to tell you if it will be a single phase service or a three phase service. Once you nail that down you can really start making plans.


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## gemini13 (Jan 15, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> I was thinking the same thing.
> 
> If it was me, before I went much further I would talk with the power company and see what they are willing to provide. Show them the load calculation and they should be able to tell you if it will be a single phase service or a three phase service. Once you nail that down you can really start making plans.


 well I have installed 2- 800 amp single phase service it's been awhile the last one was a 14 unit building. I was just askinkinh for some ideas.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

You could use 300 Kcmil THHN/ THWN copper conductors in parallel for 570 amps, or you could use 350 Kcmil in parallel for 620 amps. It depends on your calculated load. IMO if you're selling a 600 amp service then give them conductors that'll carry the full 600 amps. 

If you choose to use the 300's, 1/0 copper for your water pipe electrode, and 2/0 if you choose the 350's.


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## gemini13 (Jan 15, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> You could use 300 Kcmil THHN/ THWN copper conductors in parallel for 570 amps, or you could use 350 Kcmil in parallel for 620 amps. It depends on your calculated load. IMO if you're selling a 600 amp service then give them conductors that'll carry the full 600 amps.
> 
> If you choose to use the 300's, 1/0 copper for your water pipe electrode, and 2/0 if you choose the 350's.


 yes I think ot will also depend on the lugs I believe I need them to be rated at 95


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

gemini13 said:


> well I have installed 2- 800 amp single phase service it's been awhile the last one was a 14 unit building.


Thats great. 



> I was just askinkinh for some ideas


And I was just suggesting that before you waste to much time planing to check with the power company about what they are willing to supply that address with. 

But if you feel like rolling the dice and perhaps redoing your work go for it.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

gemini13 said:


> yes I think ot will also depend on the lugs I believe I need them to be rated at 95


Do you mean temperature rating of the lugs? If so, you'll need your equipment to be rated for 75º. Your THHN is rated for 75º as well. There is no such thing as a 95º temperature rating for equipment or conductors and very rarely is anything ever rated for even 90º. 

You also want to take Bob's advice and contact the power company. Hopefully they'll provide you with an representative who's familiar with the wiring in the area of your job and can guide you through the process.

Also, how long will this service take you to build? 10 meters/ 10 disconnects/ and ten panels could take more than an hour or two. What will the people living in the building do while the power is shutoff? 

If this is "one big side job" I suggest you pass this job off to your boss and let him handle it.


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## gemini13 (Jan 15, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> Thats great.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 I have installed a service for a 14 unit building in that area years ago, but i do plan on talking with the power company once I have an idea what im going to do


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## gemini13 (Jan 15, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> Do you mean temperature rating of the lugs? If so, you'll need your equipment to be rated for 75º. Your THHN is rated for 75º as well. There is no such thing as a 95º temperature rating for equipment or conductors and very rarely is anything ever rated for even 90º.
> 
> You also want to take Bob's advice and contact the power company. Hopefully they'll provide you with an representative who's familiar with the wiring in the area of your job and can guide you through the process.
> 
> ...


 I am the boss the building is empty , and I was just getting ideas. Thanks for your concern, you may try not to be such a tool next time. I will install all the meters, and the house panel. Then we can restore power to the building that has been empty for 3 years.


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## gemini13 (Jan 15, 2009)

gemini13 said:


> I am the boss the building is empty , and I was just getting ideas. Thanks for your concern, you may try not to be such a tool next time. I will install all the meters, and the house panel. Then we can restore power to the building that has been empty for 3 years.


 diconnects and meters all one piece, they all bolt together. It is very easy to install I think you could do it.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

gemini13 said:


> I am the boss the building is empty , and I was just getting ideas. Thanks for your concern, you may try not to be such a tool next time. I will install all the meters, and the house panel. Then we can restore power to the building that has been empty for 3 years.


Some boss you are, you didn't even know where to look for some pretty basic grounding requirements, tool.


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## mikeg_05 (Jan 1, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> Some boss you are, you didn't even know where to look for some pretty basic grounding requirements, tool.


True. But ouch.:whistling2:


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## gemini13 (Jan 15, 2009)

mikeg_05 said:


> True. But ouch.:whistling2:


 I dint have a book so I came on here to you people with no life.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

gemini13 said:


> I dint have a book so I came on here to you people with no life.


Everyone is going to be so eager to help you now.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

gemini13 said:


> I dint have a book so I came on here to you people with no life.


I may not 'have a life' but I do know how to do my job.:whistling2:


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Bob Badger said:


> I may not 'have a life' but I do know how to do my job.:whistling2:


Ditto that.

I was just thinking that I have no life but less than 2 weeks ago I tailgated with friends for over 4 hours, watched ACDC with 50,000 other metal maniacs, and on Friday night I'm going to a preseason NFL game. 

Damn.... I really do have no life!


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

Why don't you own a code book, boss man? Life get in the way?


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## gemini13 (Jan 15, 2009)

InPhase277 said:


> Why don't you own a code book, boss man? Life get in the way?


 I do I didnt have it at my house. Thanks again TOOL


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

gemini13 said:


> I do I didnt have it at my house. Thanks again TOOL


Inphase277 is a *******. 480sparky is a tool.


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## gemini13 (Jan 15, 2009)

gemini13 said:


> I do I didnt have it at my house. Thanks again TOOL


 I got my bid talk to power company as planned will start in a week 6,000 in a day for me. thanks


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Settle down, Gemini, you can learn a lot here but you have to chill out a bit.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

gemini13 said:


> Thanks for your concern, you may try not to be such a tool next time.


A tool is a mechanical devise that makes a job easier.. better find a new word :laughing:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

gemini13 said:


> I got my bid talk to power company as planned will start in a week 6,000 in a day for me. thanks



:laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

$6000 in a day? 

Hell, you could sub that baby out to me, I'll do it for $3000


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## cguillas (Jun 25, 2009)

I'll do it for a case of Pabst and a bag of Doritos.


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