# New Home Construction Materials vs Labor



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Which circuit breaker panel manufacturer are you doing this for?


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## South Philly Mark (Nov 5, 2017)

I signed a non disclosure agreement and can't say. I will say that I was surprised to learn that certain regions of the US are fiercely loyal to brand name.


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## matt1124 (Aug 23, 2011)

You tell us. Make a list of required parts and how many you need.

How much to build the service? Ridgid conduit up or a long trench? Figure $X for your meter can. Panel is $X. 1200 sq feet, you probably have a couple lighting circuits, two bath circuits, two kitchen circuits, a garage circuit, laundry circuit, maybe 6 general recept circuits. All have to be arc fault, there's 14 circuits right there at $X or so per breaker. I'd probably show up with 8 rolls of wire, $X or so each. Throw in some double pole breakers here and theres $X each. Boxes of tamper proof recepts at $X, switches, dimmers, threeways....

Don't forget all those little pieces that add up quick like grounding bushings and acorn nuts. 

I'd tell the builder to kiss my ass if he wanted to supply everything, that's a mess. GCs have no idea what all is needed, they balk at every little cost, cut every corner, and leave us waiting or sending our guy to get the missing parts.

I usually pick things up, so I can decide how much goes out on site, I don't want materials left there overnight. I will have larger things delivered as needed, most supply houses don't mind sending a truck out twice a day, just call it in.

As for the knob and tube, make sure your breakers or fuses are 15 amp. If it hasn't been all hacked up I wouldn't worry but you could always hire an electrician to evaluate it.


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## matt1124 (Aug 23, 2011)

South Philly Mark said:


> I signed a non disclosure agreement and can't say. I will say that I was surprised to learn that certain regions of the US are fiercely loyal to brand name.


Robot voice: "square D is the best. I solemnly vow allegiance to lord schneider"


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

South Philly Mark said:


> I'm an MBA student helping a circuit breaker panel manufacturer improve their supply chain and logistics. I would appreciate any input to my questions. I'm looking for ballpark estimates, nothing too detailed.
> 
> NAHB survey in 2015 said national average for 1,200 sqft new construction for electric rough in was $6 - 8,000. (Obviously varies due to local labor, complexity of job, etc). Let's say it's $7,000 cost to builder for rough-in. *How much of that is materials?* I'm seeing that panel + circuit breakers ~ $200 - 350? Is most of the material cost wiring?
> 
> ...


Tract construction in the lower states use illegal immigrant labor exclusively. This is the crowd that's purchasing in bulk directly from the NEMA players. ( ie drop shipped by the container load. ) Those containers were filled in Mexico, as a rule. 

How can you possibly top that ?

&&&

You should be worried about the amount of heat you're losing to air infiltration.

No home constructed a century ago can be trusted to be well insulated. 

Have your place scanned in the infra-red for flaws. ( HVAC dudes will perform this. )

&&&

There was a chronic tendency, a century ago, to switch the neutral conductor. (K&T)

This you don't want.


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## matt1124 (Aug 23, 2011)

telsa said:


> How can you possibly top that ?


Show up wearing this:


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

South Philly Mark said:


> I'm an MBA student helping a circuit breaker panel manufacturer improve their supply chain and logistics. I would appreciate any input to my questions. I'm looking for ballpark estimates, nothing too detailed.


Then this mystery manufacturer can well afford to pay for this information. Besides, you'll find most electricians have a deep distrust of manufacturers due to the AFCI issue. You're not going to get much help on this one.


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## South Philly Mark (Nov 5, 2017)

*I'm trying to provide them with the story from the electrician's perspective!* If the manufacturer is able to pass on a 5% cost savings on the breaker box to the electrician, would that even matter? If that box costs $300, a savings of $15 is not that significant on a $7,000 job.

What I am trying to get at is what drives the decision to purchase one box over another? Convenience (available at the closest electric supply to your house), reputation or price?


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

South Philly Mark said:


> *I'm trying to provide them with the story from the electrician's perspective!* If the manufacturer is able to pass on a 5% cost savings on the breaker box to the electrician, would that even matter? If that box costs $300, a savings of $15 is not that significant on a $7,000 job.
> 
> What I am trying to get at is what drives the decision to purchase one box over another? Convenience (available at the closest electric supply to your house), reputation or price?


The manufacturer that significantly drops the prices of AFCI's is the one who will win that battle. The cost of the panel itself is immaterial when it's filled with $500 or more worth of circuit breakers.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

South Philly Mark said:


> I'm an MBA student helping a circuit breaker panel manufacturer improve their supply chain and logistics.


OK...



> Also for a new home construction, does the electric supply or distributor deliver to the job site via pallet? Or do electricians typically pick it up?


I prefer to get anything that's not easy to transport delivered, but in new home construction that's mostly the lighting. 

I can see that that is supply chain info. The rest of your questions? 



> NAHB survey in 2015 ... Let's say it's $7,000 ... I'm seeing that panel + circuit breakers ~ $200 - 350? Is most of the material cost wiring?... I also saw that roughly 40% of homebuilders purchase the electrical supply, and just sub out the labor.


What does any of that have to do with supply chain and logistics? 

Also, you're asking us to share fairly sensitive information on a public forum. 
You're an MBA student, do you think sharing that freely is good business? 

I have a non-disclosure agreement with myself, I don't share the internal details of my business with suppliers, manufacturers, or competitors. You want find out, send me an application you can come work here for a while  

How about you go first. How much margin do manufacturers usually make on panels and breakers? How much do you charge supply houses for panels versus big box stores? 

Oh, here's another one, do I see "made in USA" on your products, and if so, are you really making it in USA, or are you screwing made in China guts into made in China tubs here and putting a made in USA sticker on it?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

When did a college student become an electrical professional?


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## Barjack (Mar 28, 2010)

My perspective from a small shop in FL......



South Philly Mark said:


> I also saw that roughly 40% of homebuilders purchase the electrical supply, and just sub out the labor. Is that typical to what you see?


No. HELL NO. 

This is a big problem for me and is an insult to our trade. If a builder, homeowner, etc tries this we pass, or shut it down. For other than specialty light fixtures and fans, we supply all materials related to our work. We make a profit on supplied materials and it boils my blood to think a builder would be so arrogant as to try to undercut us.



> Also for a new home construction, does the electric supply or distributor deliver to the job site via pallet? Or do electricians typically pick it up?


Both. Usually delivery only for the big stuff.



> Also, how worried should I be about my knob and tube in my 100+ year old house?!


A lot of it, if it is undisturbed is still fine, technically.

You must realize though that the circuit designs in those old homes are not up to today's code. Lots of receptacles in kitchens and bathrooms (the highest loads for receptacles in a house usually) are shared with lights and other receptacles throughout the house. Today's normal electrical usage can strain those old circuits.

I'd be more worried about your insurance company raising your rates or dropping you because of the K&T.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

When he figured out how to buy a main breaker panel _and all circuit 
breakers_ for *$250.00*...really? A dozen afci breakers would 
be $480.00 before sales tax where I'm from. 

Student my bunghole...this is a builder who's looking for yet a newer
angle on how to argue with his EC and would like us to help formulate
his power points.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

South Philly Mark said:


> *I'm trying to provide them with the story from the electrician's perspective!* If the manufacturer is able to pass on a 5% cost savings on the breaker box to the electrician, would that even matter? If that box costs $300, a savings of $15 is not that significant on a $7,000 job.
> 
> What I am trying to get at is what drives the decision to purchase one box over another? Convenience (available at the closest electric supply to your house), reputation or price?


I only buy equipment that was manufactured by union in North America. That narrows down my selection to one choice. :thumbsup:


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## Tonedeaf (Nov 26, 2012)

your prices are way off....There are contractors that wire complete to finish with material for 6-7000. The 2nd they realize they are working for below wages....they raise their prices and the builder finds the next bottom feeder. 

If your builder is buying rough-in materials......The electrician is the lowest of the low BOTTOM FEEDER. Unlicensed and paying someone to pull a permit.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

Tonedeaf said:


> your prices are way off....There are contractors that wire complete to finish with material for 6-7000. The 2nd they realize they are working for below wages....they raise their prices and the builder finds the next bottom feeder.
> 
> If your builder is buying rough-in materials......The electrician is the lowest of the low BOTTOM FEEDER. Unlicensed and paying someone to pull a permit.


Yep. If a builder expects to supply materials , then it's not a sub contractor - contractor relationship...it's an employee-employer relationship (_this is_
_clearly spelled out in Ohio labor law vs contracting law._)

the next time someone encounters a builder who wants to play both
sides of the fence , tell em your billing them for all payroll tax as well....
BWC , state & federal unemployment , FICA...watch em run.

IMO , any EC who allows a builder to start supplying electricians 
products and equipment should be ashamed of themselves....and
that's not even addressing the warranty issues.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

I have a hard time understanding why manufacturers would solicit any _advice_ from the very sorts they've actively _ignored, shut down_, and otherwise _subjugated_ to their marketing _whims_.
:no::no:
Mind you, these are the very _same_ companies who produce via 3rd world sweatshops , and then take out full page ads in our trade rags _demonizing_ us for purchasing '_counterfeit'_ goods, which are usually produced in the same shops and slip thru the import 'cracks'

~CS~


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

chicken steve said:


> I have a hard time understanding why manufacturers would solicit any _advice_ from the very sorts they've actively _ignored, shut down_, and otherwise _subjugated_ to their marketing _whims_.
> :no::no:
> Mind you, these are the very _same_ companies who produce via 3rd world sweatshops , and then take out full page ads in our trade rags _demonizing_ us for purchasing '_counterfeit'_ goods, which are usually produced in the same shops and slip thru the import 'cracks'
> 
> ~CS~


There isn't one in this OP. It's a horrendous , amateur cover story.


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

I usually ask for delivery. My trunk is way too small for all that stuff.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I just looked at his profile, so he says he is a residential electrician as well as an MBA student. 

A residential electrician who doesn't know the answer to this question. 

A residential electrician that a panel manufacturer came to with important questions and made him sign a non-disclosure.


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## active1 (Dec 29, 2009)

"helping a circuit breaker panel manufacturer".
You're working for one of the big manufactures and you don't even have the terminology right? It's fuse panel manufactures.

"I'm seeing that panel + circuit breakers ~ $200 - 350"
The panel bearings are what costs the most. 
1 for every circuit you could have 20 - 40 of them things in a home @ $85 each.
https://www.rexelusa.com/usr/Root-C...s/Siemens-15-813-073-001-BEARING-FOR/p/507836


"Also for a new home construction, does the electric supply or distributor deliver to the job site via pallet?"
We use helicopters in Vegas for electrical supplies. You really got to get the order right the 1st time to avoid additional fees. Cali has drone supply house deliveries. Illinois still uses barges until winter, then it's bobsleds. Oklahoma is hoarse and carnage delivery.

I also saw that roughly 40% of homebuilders purchase the electrical supply, and just sub out the labor. Is that typical to what you see?
No, the homeowner builders and small GC's buy the material all the time. 
But the electricians wont install it.
So the HO builder or GC do the entire job themselves.
Any technical help they need is available at the big box stores like HD.
Then pay some down and out electrician $100 to pull the permit so they can pass inspection.

Your welcome


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Nice troll thread.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

emtnut said:


> I usually ask for delivery. My trunk is way too small for all that stuff.


You know, I laughed when I read that but then thought, if someone was OCD, they could probably work just fine out of the trunk.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

The company I work for wires 2 homes a week on average. We use lots of breaker boxes and breakers. They are made by a company that makes breaker boxes. We buy them at the supplier that sells breaker boxes. Then we install them. I hope this helps.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

well , obviously there's a non disclosure issue here


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## South Philly Mark (Nov 5, 2017)

Hey guys thanks for your input. I was given limited data and a week to put this together so that's why my estimates are totally off. I am not a residential electrician. I put that in my info because I thought I would get booted off because this is a forum for electricians.

I'm a big believer in learning your customer's pain points. I want to tell your story to this manufacturer next week. It seems to me that they think of the supply stores as the customers and not really thiking of the key stakeholders.

Any of your thoughts on examples of interactions with electric supply distributors, manufacturers is appreciated withink a given work week.

Thanks guys! I'm not some nefarious villain. My background is healthcare and I'm trying to learn a new industry in a week!


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## Barjack (Mar 28, 2010)

You still lied though. To some of us that means something. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## South Philly Mark (Nov 5, 2017)

What did I lie about?


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## Barjack (Mar 28, 2010)

Your status as an electrician.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## South Philly Mark (Nov 5, 2017)

That's the only option on registration


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

South Philly Mark said:


> What did I lie about?


Wow, you're an idiot.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

@;


South Philly Mark said:


> That's the only option on registration


Which means you shouldn't have registered.

_My key didn't work in my neighbor's door so I kicked the door in_


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## matt1124 (Aug 23, 2011)

Why wouldn't you just put that you were a manufacturer rep? If someone came to work on your home representing themselves as something they aren't and when you quickly spotted they were a phony, even before they did any work, wouldn't you want to know why they lied in the first place? It doesn't build a foundation of trust. 

The only manufacturers we care about are sponsors of this site, why do we care what GE or Siemens thinks?


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## South Philly Mark (Nov 5, 2017)

Don't appreciate the name calling, but do appreciate the comments from others. Thank you for your time!


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

You must be a millennial.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

South Philly Mark said:


> Don't appreciate the name calling, but do appreciate the comments from others. Thank you for your time!


I don't appreciate being lied to by an idiot who doesn't even recognize that lying to someone is wrong.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

You guys are all getting trolled hard.


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## StriickeN (Sep 11, 2017)

*sits back with bag of popcorn*


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

Holy smokes...is there a full moon tonight?


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## StriickeN (Sep 11, 2017)

:laughing: Yea I think so


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

active1 said:


> "
> 
> "Also for a new home construction, does the electric supply or distributor deliver to the job site via pallet?"
> *We use helicopters in Vegas for electrical supplies*. You really got to get the order right the 1st time to avoid additional fees. *Cali has drone supply house deliveries. * Illinois still uses barges until winter, then it's bobsleds. Oklahoma is hoarse and carnage delivery.
> ...



Man, i never get the memo .....~CS~


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

active1 said:


> "helping a circuit breaker panel manufacturer".
> You're working for one of the big manufactures and you don't even have the terminology right? It's fuse panel manufactures.
> 
> "I'm seeing that panel + circuit breakers ~ $200 - 350"
> ...


Hoarse and carnage delivery? That would explain the destroyed panel cover I recieved!

Sent from my SM-G892A using my fingers.


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## matt1124 (Aug 23, 2011)

Being from OK I'll vouch for the carnage. If any of you have a locke supply around you know it's true.


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