# 60 amp subpanel



## gilbequick (Oct 6, 2007)

Thhn/thwn


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## nmackintosh (May 8, 2008)

thanks


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## nmackintosh (May 8, 2008)

what about nmwu inside pvc?


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

nmackintosh said:


> what about nmwu inside pvc?


No suitable for a wet location - the inside of a conduit in a wet location is also a wet location.

Use THHN/THWN.
You could use UF, but that would be way too hard, and you would have to upsize the conduit at least 2 sizes to get #6-3 UF in it.

Also, UF is a 60° conductor. #6 is 55 amps. Using #6 THWN you would use the 75° column - 65 amps.


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

Am I the only guy that thinks it's just easier to use THHN/THWN for this than try and make something else work?


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

randomkiller said:


> Am I the only guy that thinks it's just easier to use THHN/THWN for this than try and make something else work?


Of course it's easier. 
All 3 of us who have responded told the OP that. I think he has a cable fixation, that's all.


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## gse (Aug 23, 2007)

nmackintosh said:


> what about nmwu inside pvc?


 
A real hack job.


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## nmackintosh (May 8, 2008)

are you guys talking abot me?


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## gse (Aug 23, 2007)

nmackintosh said:


> are you guys talking abot me?


 
Can't be sensitive and learn elecrtrical work, no room for it, talking about the method not you using nmwu inside pvc, is a hack type job.


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## nmackintosh (May 8, 2008)

geez, i was just asking a question, real nice guys on this site, i'll sure to be back:thumbsup:


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

nmackintosh said:


> geez, i was just asking a question, real nice guys on this site, i'll sure to be back:thumbsup:


 
You come on a forum like this and you leave yourself open for a little ribbing. Thick skin helps. No matter how you look at it, we are easier to deal with than some customers.


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## gse (Aug 23, 2007)

randomkiller said:


> Thick skin helps. No matter how you look at it, we are easier to deal with than some customers.


Most of the guys are really nice, but they want you to understand the concepts, you can't take any of the issues to heart, but you can learn a lot from the sites, nothing was directed at you , it was the issue that was addressed!


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

gse said:


> Most of the guys are really nice, but they want you to understand the concepts, you can't take any of the issues to heart, but you can learn a lot from the sites, nothing was directed at you , it was the issue that was addressed!


 
IT'S ALL A PART OF THE LEARNING CURVE, some are just slower on curves than others.


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## Mountain Electrician (Jan 22, 2007)

nmackintosh said:


> hey, i am currently a second year apprentice with all my experiance in residental, all new homes. My brother wants to install a 60 amp subpanel in his shop. I wanna pipe the whole thing in pvc outside underground. Wire out of the panel, out the house, pvc lb, 90, pvc to shop, 90 up, lb. The only problem I have is what kind of wire to use. I did it before with another company and iam pretty sure they use 6/3 loomex, but i know you can't put loomex in pvc so i don't know what to use... if anyone could help that would be great. I really don't wanna use tek cable if i dont have to. I find pvc to be way easier to use. Thanks!


Tek cable would be expensive I think, unless you had some laying about. PVC pipe all the way and THHN/THWN is the way to go.


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## nmackintosh (May 8, 2008)

cool beans


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## electricguy (Mar 22, 2007)

nmackintosh said:


> what about nmwu inside pvc?


 
you can use the PVC for protection of the Cable where it leaves the Trench.

Why not use acwu and protect it with PVC where it leaves the trench.


Plus you DO KNOW you need a permit for this RIGHT please dont learn bad habits they will follow you all your electrical days


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## electricguy (Mar 22, 2007)

JohnJ0906 said:


> No suitable for a wet location - the inside of a conduit in a wet location is also a wet location.
> 
> Use THHN/THWN.
> You could use UF, but that would be way too hard, and you would have to upsize the conduit at least 2 sizes to get #6-3 UF in it.
> ...


This is what is acceptable for direct buried cables

For direct earth burial (with protection as required by inspection authority)
Armoured Cable
ACWU90
TECK90
Nonmetallic Sheathed Cable
NMWU 
Rubber (Thermoset-) Insulated Cable
RWU75
RL90, 
RWU90
Aluminum-Sheathed Cable
RA75
RA90


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## gse (Aug 23, 2007)

Yes, for direct earth burial, not to pull in PVC that is a difficult pull and usually done by the DIY types, and electricians that don't want to buy the rolls of wire, also you will create a nightmare for anyone trying to replace the cable.


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

electricguy said:


> This is what is acceptable for direct buried cables
> 
> For direct earth burial (with protection as required by inspection authority)
> Armoured Cable
> ...


Ok, rules are a little different between here and there.
Much of what you list is not suitable for wet locations under the NEC.
Nonmetallic sheathed cable is dry and damp locations only here - not wet.
UF (underground feeder) is for wet locations.
I don't even know some of the other stuff - at least by those names.

The answer I gave still stands though. Conduit with individual conductors, wet rated, is the easiest and best method. JMO.


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## electricguy (Mar 22, 2007)

Even with direct burial cables there is lots of code rules involved like depth, screened backfill or sand NO rocks marker tape under concrete if its not at a certain depth the concrete has to be marked hope they showed him all this stuff by 2nd or 3rd term apprenticing


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## electricguy (Mar 22, 2007)

I Think the NEC UF is the same as our NMWU Cable.

I am only assuming the W stands for wet and the U stands for underground.


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## gse (Aug 23, 2007)

electricguy said:


> I Think the NEC UF is the same as our NMWU Cable.
> 
> I am only assuming the W stands for wet and the U stands for underground.


Yes but stuffing the the nmwu in the PVC conduit is what makes it a hack job. The guys were trying to give good information using wires rather then cable.


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

gse said:


> Yes but stuffing the the nmwu in the PVC conduit is what makes it a hack job. The guys were trying to give good information using wires rather then cable.


I disagree - I don't think there is anything wrong about the nmwu in PVC - I just think it is more work than nessary, not a hack job.


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## electricguy (Mar 22, 2007)

gse said:


> Yes but stuffing the the nmwu in the PVC conduit is what makes it a hack job. The guys were trying to give good information using wires rather then cable.


we can even use poly water pipe for protection of the cable,,

Rule 12-012 provides requirements for the installation and protection of conductors, cables, and raceways in underground locations to provide for the safety of people and the continuing operation of the system.
In Section 12, direct burial refers to conductors or cables that are directly buried underground (i.e., the outer surface of the conductor or cable is in direct contact with the earth). Cover, as used in Rule 12-012, refers to the minimum distance between the top surface of the conductor, cable, or raceway and the finished grade.
Subrule (1) requires that the minimum cover for direct burial conductors, cables, or raceways be in accordance with the requirements of Table 53 to provide sufficient isolation for the protection of people and electrical equipment.
Subrule (2) allows the minimum depth of burial/cover given in Table 53 to be reduced by 150 mm when one of the types of mechanical protection outlined in Subrule (3) is used. The rationale is that when mechanical protection allowed by Subrule (3) is provided, it is considered a safeguard that allows a reduction in the burial/cover depth. The protection method must not injure the conductors or the conductor's insulation or restrict the required separation. When designing or installing underground raceways, the requirements of Rule 12-934 must be met.
Subrule (3) permits the following methods:
• treated planking, which is the treatment of wood with a solution such as pentachlorophenol or other suitable material for preservation. Creosote and some types of wood preservative can damage the insulation of the conductor and must not be used;
• 50 mm of poured concrete;
• 50 mm thick concrete slabs placed over the installation;
• concrete encasement of 50 mm thick; or
• other suitable material, including polyethylene pipe, as certified under CAN/CSA-B137.1.


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## gse (Aug 23, 2007)

JohnJ0906 said:


> I disagree - I don't think there is anything wrong about the nmwu in PVC - I just think it is more work than nessary, not a hack job.


It may be you have not had to repair one of these job, and try to remove the mess, anyone that learned the trade as a craft would not run cable in conduit, but anyone that was not trainned in the craft would do it that way. How many times we see someone at the box stores buying PVC and cable, and the worst thing they don't understand you can't use NM in wet locations.


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## electricguy (Mar 22, 2007)

gse said:


> It may be you have not had to repair one of these job, and try to remove the mess, anyone that learned the trade as a craft would not run cable in conduit, but anyone that was not trainned in the craft would do it that way. How many times we see someone at the box stores buying PVC and cable, and the worst thing they don't understand you can't use NM in wet locations.


 I must of missed something here never did i see anyone posting about what I assume you mean nm (D) Cable in this thread. I saw the NMWU cable posted. Different Cable


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## gilbequick (Oct 6, 2007)

gse said:


> It may be you have not had to repair one of these job, and try to remove the mess, anyone that learned the trade as a craft would not run cable in conduit, but anyone that was not trainned in the craft would do it that way. How many times we see someone at the box stores buying PVC and cable, and the worst thing they don't understand you can't use NM in wet locations.


What's wrong with running UF or NMWU (aren't these the same thing?) in conduit? At least with the conduit you've got a chance to pull it out if there's a problem. All the conduit does it provide extra protection. Direct buried you're going to have to dig something up. 

I'd rather have direct burial wire run in something than nothing, although there's nothing at all wrong with having it laying in the dirt at the proper depth. There was a team of engineers that stamped it with a UL approval and then also OK'd by the NEC as an approved wiring method.

Bottom line to me is what the customer wants to pay for. If they want minimum NEC than that's what they'll get. If they want future expansion made easier right now then the'll get that.


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## heel600 (Oct 31, 2007)

gilbequick said:


> What's wrong with running UF or NMWU (aren't these the same thing?) in conduit? At least with the conduit you've got a chance to pull it out if there's a problem. All the conduit does it provide extra protection. Direct buried you're going to have to dig something up.
> 
> I'd rather have direct burial wire run in something than nothing, although there's nothing at all wrong with having it laying in the dirt at the proper depth. There was a team of engineers that stamped it with a UL approval and then also OK'd by the NEC as an approved wiring method.
> 
> Bottom line to me is what the customer wants to pay for. If they want minimum NEC than that's what they'll get. If they want future expansion made easier right now then the'll get that.


I didn't look in the code to see what article covers this, but Susan Borak from the NJ DCA Codes and Standards did a class, and according to her you can NOT put a cable (of any type) in a raceway. 

Not NM in sealtite, not UF in PVC, whether or not it's inside, or whatever.

You can however put cable into a raceway when the raceway does not go box to box, ie a 1900 box, EMT, then a from-to. Then the raceway is an extention of the box.


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

heel600 said:


> I didn't look in the code to see what article covers this, but Susan Borak from the NJ DCA Codes and Standards did a class, and according to her you can NOT put a cable (of any type) in a raceway.
> 
> Not NM in sealtite, not UF in PVC, whether or not it's inside, or whatever.
> 
> You can however put cable into a raceway when the raceway does not go box to box, ie a 1900 box, EMT, then a from-to. Then the raceway is an extention of the box.


She is absolutely wrong, according to the NEC. Perhaps there are NJ amendments that prohibit this, but not the NEC.


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## gse (Aug 23, 2007)

heel600 said:


> I didn't look in the code to see what article covers this, but Susan Borak from the NJ DCA Codes and Standards did a class, and according to her you can NOT put a cable (of any type) in a raceway.
> 
> Not NM in sealtite, not UF in PVC, whether or not it's inside, or whatever.
> 
> You can however put cable into a raceway when the raceway does not go box to box, ie a 1900 box, EMT, then a from-to. Then the raceway is an extention of the box.


Susan is now only a good electrician but she was well trainned, and does a great job, with the Nec code update classes, you can get a good idea of how many don't understand the code from reading this thread.


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## gse (Aug 23, 2007)

JohnJ0906 said:


> She is absolutely wrong, according to the NEC. Perhaps there are NJ amendments that prohibit this, but not the NEC.


It has nothing to do with any Jersey rules. your permitted to cover short lengths with a sleeve, but you had better check on fill and derating if you intentend to use it.


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## heel600 (Oct 31, 2007)

JohnJ0906 said:


> She is absolutely wrong, according to the NEC. Perhaps there are NJ amendments that prohibit this, but not the NEC.


Well, I couldn't find anything in the 2005 NEC. Maybe it had to do with the UL listings, I'm not sure. Don't think it's a NJ exception.

If I take another one of her classes, I'll ask.


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

gse said:


> It has nothing to do with any Jersey rules. your permitted to cover short lengths with a sleeve, but you had better check on fill and derating if you intentend to use it.


You are restricted by fill - which makes you use a much larger conduit than for individual conductors - but still legal.

Please read Chapter 9, first page (*70* - 671) note 9.


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## gse (Aug 23, 2007)

heel600 said:


> Well, I couldn't find anything in the 2005 NEC. Maybe it had to do with the UL listings, I'm not sure. Don't think it's a NJ exception.
> 
> If I take another one of her classes, I'll ask.


2008, 300.9, help make it clear on the wet locations, and the use cable in fittings is covered under the manufactures listings.

Someone in the class may of asked about using UF in an AC whip.

A nice book to have for the code changes is the Stallcup's Illustrated Code Changes.


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

For instance, see 344.22.


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

For cable in conduit, see the respective 3**-22 for each method. (344-22 for rigid, 358 for EMT, etc)
I didn't check every one, but the ones that I did ALL permitted cable to be installed.


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## waco (Dec 10, 2007)

I think THHN is suitable for "damp" locations, but not "wet" locations. I think THW is the right choice.


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

waco said:


> I think THHN is suitable for "damp" locations, but not "wet" locations. I think THW is the right choice.


Or THWN. Or XHHW. Or any wet rated conductor.

Every time I have used THHN for the last 2 years, I have checked, and every time I have found a dual rating - THHN/THWN.

An example - Southwire's "THHN" has multiple ratings.http://www.southwire.com/ProductCatalog/XTEInterfaceServlet?contentKey=prodcatsheet1


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## gse (Aug 23, 2007)

JohnJ0906 said:


> For cable in conduit, see the respective 3**-22 for each method. (344-22 for rigid, 358 for EMT, etc)
> I didn't check every one, but the ones that I did ALL permitted cable to be installed.


You can search forever and never find it in the code book, because it is part of the manufactures listing, none of the manufactures make a fitting approved to be used with cable. everytime we layout a job, we have to check the building codes, the fire codes, and the manufactures listing information, along with the electrical codes and standards, after more then 35 plus years you just kind of get use to it.

I will say the 34 hours of CEU's we need every cycle gives a chance to review all the updates, how many hours does your state require to renew your license.

I think once more states requiry EC's to pay the $900 dollars plus lose a weeks working time to attend the CEU's the more electricians will take an intrest in the codes. With all the CEU's and review classes, we still miss some of the articles or get them wrong.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

gse, I see you have a lot of preconceived notions about other electricians, especially those not in your particular situation. 

Although I do agree with you about continuing education and keeping up with codes, your approach to this and references to other's code knowledge could use some refining.




On topic:
Anyone who makes this statement: "_{according to her} you can NOT put a cable (of any type) in a raceway_" is flat out wrong. 
This has been gone over MANY many times and the fact remains that there is NO prohibition for it. 
TRUE, this is not something I would do, and it does smack of DIY/shortcut/etc. Also it is much harder to do it legally and correctly than to simply use conductors and do it the "right" way. 
Thing is there is no code you will find, NEC or otherwise, saying it is not compliant.


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## gse (Aug 23, 2007)

Speedy Petey said:


> gse, I see you have a lot of preconceived notions about other electricians, especially those not in your particular situation.
> 
> Although I do agree with you about continuing education and keeping up with codes, your approach to this and references to other's code knowledge could use some refining.
> 
> ...


It is not a Jersey thing, the fittings not being approved for the cable, is part of the manufactures listing., so cable can not be used ina complete system, susan was most likely addressing a guestion on a AC whip, where some try to use uf in the whip with a fitting, I hope you following this.

There is nothing preconceived about other electricians, not looking bast the code book to see if other areas apply.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Following what? You assumption of what this Susan was talking about?

I never said it was a Jersey thing. My comments were towards your suggestion that once more states and electricians do your kind of continuing ed the world will be a better place. Although I would welcome it as it would provide a more level playing field, there are some of us who can hold our own without it.


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## gse (Aug 23, 2007)

Speedy Petey said:


> Following what? You assumption of what this Susan was talking about?
> 
> I never said it was a Jersey thing. My comments were towards your suggestion that once more states and electricians do your kind of continuing ed the world will be a better place. Although I would welcome it as it would provide a more level playing field, there are some of us who can hold our own without it.


Not that the world would be a better place, but you may take an intrest in keeping up to date, but for everyone like yourself, there are guys that have 10 year old code books, and never breake the cover after they leave school. I personal feeling of the 34 is it's more of a hardship, however the 10 hours of update is really necessary on cycle changes, I really believe the more hours required will help improve the entire industry.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

On this I do agree. We all know goobers who are "using" code books three cycles out of date. 
Many times these are the same ones who when you tell them about certain web sites, like this one, they say "_Oh, I don't do the computer thing_".


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## gse (Aug 23, 2007)

Speedy Petey said:


> On this I do agree. We all know goobers who are "using" code books three cycles out of date.
> Many times these are the same ones who when you tell them about certain web sites, like this one, they say "_Oh, I don't do the computer thing_".


I like stallcups, review book for code changes, an easy read with illustrations.


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

gse, she is still wrong.... but so am I, partly.

NOTHING prohibits cable in conduit.

HOWEVER, you are correct - the fittings must be listed for the use (UL white book, page 100) http://www.snapdrive.net/files/507790/2007USWhiteBookFinal.pdf

I stand partially corrected.


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

gse said:


> I will say the 34 hours of CEU's we need every cycle gives a chance to review all the updates, how many hours does your state require to renew your license.
> 
> .


Zero.
And I don't care for that at all.
The Electric League of MD is pushing for expanded licensing requirements, with continuing education for all J-men and Masters. I am all for that.
I take 2 classes a year - 16 to 24 hours, plus the countless hours I spend here and at Mike Holt's forum.


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

We get offered plenty of classes through suppliers and from the shop but most guys don't attend unless requested to or paid for the time. I go often and see the same guys attending all the time.


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

I took a '08 NEC change seminar (Mike Holt) and paid for it out of my pocket, and took a vacation day to do it. That is how important I feel continuing education is.
I usually take evening classes.
The owner and VP from my company were there as well, and decided to pay me for the day, so I didn't use the vacation time.

The bad part was that the time I spend on the forums already had me up to speed on most of the changes. 

The good part is Mike is a fantastic teacher - if anyone gets the chance, take one of his courses - time well spent. :thumbsup:


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## gse (Aug 23, 2007)

JohnJ0906 said:


> I took a '08 NEC change seminar (Mike Holt) and paid for it out of my pocket, and took a vacation day to do it. That is how important I feel continuing education is.
> I usually take evening classes.
> The owner and VP from my company were there as well, and decided to pay me for the day, so I didn't use the vacation time.
> 
> ...


As I said before we have all the hours here and still make mistakes or miss articles, so i think the quality of the trainning is more important, then the hours.

Sure the fittings are usually the problem, not the conduit, and i think the poster that said, she told them no raceway was really raceways with fittings, that were not approved.

I was one that fought the state additional hours, then after finding out how many guys never opened a code book, i could see the reason for it.


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## gse (Aug 23, 2007)

JohnJ0906 said:


> The owner and VP from my company were there as well, and decided to pay me for the day, so I didn't use the vacation time.
> :thumbsup:


Well they seen the light, and they must of thought the course had value to pay you the day, so as not to loose vacation time.

We have meetings after jobs are completed, to learn from our errors, something like, after action reports, and they really help glue the team work. Code issues are offen discussed.


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

gse said:


> Well they seen the light, and they must of thought the course had value to pay you the day, so as not to loose vacation time.


Wish they had paid the $350 for the course too. 
Wish they would pass some of what we learned to the other guys.



> We have meetings after jobs are completed, to learn from our errors, something like, after action reports, and they really help glue the team work. Code issues are offen discussed.


That is a real smart idea. I have suggested that after some big projects.

Evidently we would rather continue making the same mistakes.


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## gilbequick (Oct 6, 2007)

I made suggestions like that all the time at my old company. You think they give a crap about some suggestion, good or bad, that wasn't their own? Heck no. They complain about mistakes some people make and how it cost the company such and such to correct them, but they don't want to have to educate the employees any more than they possibly have to. 

_It's almost like they don't want employees to be more knowledgeable than they are....

_*Poor management drives out the best employees. Poor employees drives out the best management. * Bottom line is you hire the best of the best and your company will start speaking for itself and will develop and reputation as being one of the best around.


.


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## silver50032000 (Jan 21, 2014)

nmackintosh said:


> hey, i am currently a second year apprentice with all my experiance in residental, all new homes. My brother wants to install a 60 amp subpanel in his shop. I wanna pipe the whole thing in pvc outside underground. Wire out of the panel, out the house, pvc lb, 90, pvc to shop, 90 up, lb. The only problem I have is what kind of wire to use. I did it before with another company and iam pretty sure they use 6/3 loomex, but i know you can't put loomex in pvc so i don't know what to use... if anyone could help that would be great. I really don't wanna use tek cable if i dont have to. I find pvc to be way easier to use. Thanks!


I would use NMWU #6/3 ,i would put it inside a 2 or 3 inch pvc pipe just to give it protection,terminate this pipe about a foot from the riser on each end,leave slack in the wire so it enters the riser in a vertical position. The conduit riser should terminate 12 inches above the bottom of the trench,this gives the cable some slack to compensate for any frost action. Backfill the trench half way,lay down the caution tape ,backfill and then connect it up.


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## jett95 (Sep 18, 2012)

Are you retarted this thread is from 2008 and your replying to it


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## RFguy (Sep 11, 2013)

Ha Ha. He said "retarted"


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## silver50032000 (Jan 21, 2014)

jett95 said:


> Are you retarted this thread is from 2008 and your replying to it


Not really I'm a time traveler.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

Asked in post #1, answered in post #2.


Then 3 pages of :jester:



:laughing:


And I got suckered in to an old ass thread :jester:


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## daveEM (Nov 18, 2012)

Me too. Silver only has 39 posts. Has to learn how to use a Forum yet.


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