# Head scratcher



## watts77 (Dec 3, 2010)

Any ideas? Have a washing machine that they are using the steel water hoses on. For the second time in two weeks the hoses have welded together and started leaking. Homeowner says he saw arcing from the machine to the hose. Checked the water lines and no voltage, crawled under the house to make sure no romex was touching anything. Checked the washer to see if it had voltage on it while it was plugged in, couldn't check with hoses and water because the homeowner had thrown them away. Service isn't bonded to water. Don't know where else to look. They already had someone come check the machine and he said it was an electrical problem


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Sounds like your water pipes are energized somewhere. Are the pipes bonded?


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## watts77 (Dec 3, 2010)

No. But I've checked voltage on them. Nothing from water lines to neutral or ground, 120 from hot to the water lines.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

watts77 said:


> No. But I've checked voltage on them. Nothing from water lines to neutral or ground, 120 from hot to the water lines.


Turn on all the light switches it sounds like it is intermittent problem then test it again.


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## watts77 (Dec 3, 2010)

Tried that too. Thinking it must be the washing machine but couldn't test it. I've never seen that before but that happens alot.


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## Buck Parrish (May 7, 2009)

Are their neighbors nearby that may be using the water line ground. This could be a dangerous situation. You should call the POCO and ask them to check their neutrals. 
Again as some one stated above, if it's an intermitten problem it may be harder to find.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Sounds like an ungrounded washer and a bad motor or controls. Is the washer grounded properly?


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## noarcflash (Sep 14, 2011)

I would start with bonding. It should be done anyway. You'll never know if the washer frame is arcing to the pipe, or visa-versa.

I'd just start grounding everything, or checking grounds if they exist. Something gotta come up eventually.


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## Service Call (Jul 9, 2011)

Disconnect the hoses and plug in the washer and check for voltage between the washer and water lines.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

> Service isn't bonded to water


_errrruhhhmmm.......~_CS~


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

We need a chicken steve ????? button


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## crosport (Apr 4, 2010)

chicken steve said:


> _errrruhhhmmm.......~_CS~


 Somewhere it is cause he reads 120V from a hot line to pipes.


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## mbednarik (Oct 10, 2011)

sounds like a neighbors neutral problem. Intermittent also. I would bond just because it should be done anyhow. although before you bond, put an ampmeter on the neutral and make it has a connection to the utility, turn on some load if you have to.


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## Wireman191 (Aug 28, 2011)

Very weird situation. How would this work though, One hose would have to have voltage on it, the other ground, right? I don't see how there would be a potential of difference on the hoses.:blink:


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## kbatku (Oct 18, 2011)

Gas or electric water heater? Is the water heater grounded?

Simple fix: Buy rubber hoses. 

Odd too because the water inlets on the machine are plastic, right?


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## mbednarik (Oct 10, 2011)

Wireman191 said:


> Very weird situation. How would this work though, One hose would have to have voltage on it, the other ground, right? I don't see how there would be a potential of difference on the hoses.:blink:


either neutral current from the neighbors coming up the water line through the EGC to the service back to the utility, or his neutral going down his EGC to the washer. Then to the water line to the neighbors.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Take your measurements while the water heater is heating. Might be a bad element.


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

Washers usually have plastic hose connections. Do they have a luandry sink with a brass spicot that would bond the hot and cold waterlines?If not ,bond them at the water heater.Then check neutrals.


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## mrmike (Dec 10, 2010)

watts77 said:


> Any ideas? Homeowner says he saw arcing from the machine to the hose. . They already had someone come check the machine and he said it was an electrical problem


 
That someone saying it was an electrical problem is pretty easy to say:whistling2: Is the problem in the electrical service feed or is it in the washer? Did he run it thru a cycle?

I would ask the homeowner if he saw the arc when the washer was running or off, sitting there. Did the hoses weld together when the washer was running ?

The water inlet valves are plastic,but the SS hoses might be touching the machine or the water being energized by one of the valves solenoid.. This is very serious & I would run that machine thru a few cycles with a voltmeter from it & a jumper to a seperate ground.


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## watts77 (Dec 3, 2010)

Ok. Met homeowner over there for a few minutes to check the problem. There is a slight arc if you touch the hose to the side of the washer. Have a sub panel in the house. Looked in it, neutrals and grounds weren't separated so started working on that. Found out there is voltage on some of the grounds. Some are reading 20v, some 33v, on reads 50v. Have to kill about 6 breakers to get a clear reading. House has metal boxes so I'm assuming there might be some hots and grounds touching the box. It's not tripping the breaker though so there is still some grounding issue


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## watts77 (Dec 3, 2010)

Ok. Someone explain this to me. Went back to house to work on it. Started with bonding the water. When I hooked it up at the service it arced. Checked voltage and it showed 4v. Hooked it up and took an amp draw and it showed 10a. It would fluctuate between 10a and 1 1/2a for the next hour or so. Checked amperage on the neutral from the load side of the meter socket and it reads the difference between both phases plus the amperage off the ground to water. So to try and figure out what circuit was causing it I started turning breakers off. Ended up killing power to the whole house but still had current on the water ground. Even killed the neighbors power because they are on the same transformer but no luck. Any ideas?


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

Yes, sounds like there is a common water supply with current on it.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

If you are sure that power is off in the house, then you have a poco problem.


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## kbatku (Oct 18, 2011)

Overhead or underground service?


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## watts77 (Dec 3, 2010)

Overhead


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## noarcflash (Sep 14, 2011)

how many houses on the POT ?


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## watts77 (Dec 3, 2010)

just 2. killed power to the other house to see if it was coming from them but still had current on lines with both houses killed


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## noarcflash (Sep 14, 2011)

so it could be 2 miles south west of the north east corner of the property line.

My house always has ground current, even if the 200amp service is off. Their explanation was because I have the best ground rod in the neighborhood. and anyone could have a flakey neutral.


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## french connection!! (Dec 13, 2007)

any radio transmitter antenna in the area ?


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## watts77 (Dec 3, 2010)

No. It's a poco issue. Was out there testing with them last week. They could kill a transformer a few houses down and it took care of most of the problem. Got to where there was only .8 amps on the line. They changed the transformer out. Now they are going through the whole neighborhood re-grounding everything trying to get rid of the remaining amperage. They still don't have a clue why it happened


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Most likely the voltage you are reading is phantom voltage.

1. If there is arcing there is current, disconnect the washer, install a short extension cord with the 3 extension cord conductors exposed so you can utilize a amp clamp on them, turn the washer on, is there current on the hot, neutral, ground?
2. Is there current on the metallic washer hose?
3. Is there measurable current on the water lines in the house, particularly at the incoming utility water service?
4. Turn on as many loads as possible, perform zero sequence readings at your two panels.
5. Turn off the power and with all loads off and disconnected megger all neutrals at 100 VDC, if clear megger at 1000 VDC. Though 100 VDC should be good.


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