# Student with a few questions



## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

What is that box on the left on the outside of the box? maybe a doorbell transformer

In what situation would someone need to put a white wire on a breaker? an old 240V dryer circuit

Are we not supposed to cut the wires so they don't snake around like that and sit clean? key operative "supposed to"

In what situation would I need a wire connector (we call it a marette in french but I don't know if that's the right english term) in a breaker box? if you need to extend a wire


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

Was going to ask you what that black box was. A white wire should never go to a breaker. If anything it should be re-identified as a hot. Yeah, the wires should be dressed better, but, it's normal to leave slack in the hots, in case you have to rearrange circuits, but the neutrals can be a bit shorter since the neutral buss doesn't normally get moved. You're not supposed to splice in a panel, but, you can extend wires if need be. At least that's how we roll in the states.


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## Martine (Jan 26, 2018)

MikeFL said:


> What is that box on the left on the outside of the box? maybe a doorbell transformer
> 
> In what situation would someone need to put a white wire on a breaker? an old 240V dryer circuit
> 
> ...


oh could very well be the doorbell! I'm not there yet in my program! 

The double breaker with the white wire is identified as heating on the panel, but someone could have very well swapped the breakers at one point. Could it potentially just be that they used RW90 2/14 as 240v without the red sleeve? (once again might not be the right term, I'm a frenchie)


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## Coppersmith (Aug 11, 2017)

First of all, you probably should not be poking around in a hot panel until you are more skilled. 



Martine said:


> What is that box on the left on the outside of the box?


Looks like it might be a low voltage transformer, possibly for a doorbell.



Martine said:


> In what situation would someone need to put a white wire on a breaker?


2 conductor NM cable comes with one black conductor and one white. If you are using it to power a 2 pole device like a water heater, the white would land on the breaker. You're supposed to recode the wire a "hot" color like red. 

Also white conductors are landed on GFCI and AFCI breakers. 



Martine said:


> Are we not supposed to cut the wires so they don't snake around like that and sit clean?


You want the wires to be neat, but never cut just long enough to reach where they are landing. You want extra wire in case a wire gets damaged or you want to reorganize the panel.



Martine said:


> In what situation would I need a wire connector (we call it a marette in french but I don't know if that's the right english term) in a breaker box?


Every cable and conduit coming into the panel requires a connector to protect it from the sharp metal edge and from being stretched and pulled out of its landing spot.



Martine said:


> I'm only a few months in so I apologize in advance if they're silly questions!


Continue asking questions. It's how we learn.


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## Martine (Jan 26, 2018)

​


joebanana said:


> Was going to ask you what that black box was. A white wire should never go to a breaker. If anything it should be re-identified as a hot. Yeah, the wires should be dressed better, but, it's normal to leave slack in the hots, in case you have to rearrange circuits, but the neutrals can be a bit shorter since the neutral buss doesn't normally get moved. You're not supposed to splice in a panel, but, you can extend wires if need be. At least that's how we roll in the states.


Yeah someone had done that in class and our teacher yelled at him because he snipped too short, and he hoped my teacher wouldn't notice instead of just grabbing a new piece and starting over. I'll have to check my code but it's either heavily frowned upon (by my teacher anyway) or illegal.


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

Martine said:


> Yeah someone had done that in class and our teacher yelled at him because he snipped too short, and he hoped my teacher wouldn't notice instead of just grabbing a new piece and starting over. I'll have to check my code but it's either heavily frowned upon (by my teacher anyway) or illegal.


He deserved to get yelled at, kinda. If anything, you want the wires longer than necessary. Especially at the panel.


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## Martine (Jan 26, 2018)

Coppersmith said:


> First of all, you probably should not be poking around in a hot panel until you are more skilled.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



My teacher is the one who asked me to open up my panel, take a picture, and not touch anything and shut it back up again. :vs_whistle: Apparently on monday everyone is bringing in their pictures and he's going to explain to us any questions we might have since he said there's a lot of things that are different in real life than in books. 

For the NM cable, at school we have some with a red plastic coating, they have a red & black wire inside, not white. We've been told it's primarily used for heating, but can be used for most things that are 240v. Would the white plastic coated NM cable not be the same thing but be more work since you'd have to identify your white as being hot? 

As for the connector, I must be using the wrong word, I mean a wire connector that you add to the end of jointed cables


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## Martine (Jan 26, 2018)

joebanana said:


> He deserved to get yelled at, kinda. If anything, you want the wires longer than necessary. Especially at the panel.


He told us to bring in enough wire to make it to the top of the breaker box, and then snip accordingly.

Dude isn't in my class anymore, he left two live wires in a box with no connector and turned on his circuit. BANG failed his exam


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## Coppersmith (Aug 11, 2017)

Martine said:


> My teacher is the one who asked me to open up my panel, take a picture, and not touch anything and shut it back up again. :vs_whistle: Apparently on monday everyone is bringing in their pictures and he's going to explain to us any questions we might have since he said there's a lot of things that are different in real life than in books.
> 
> For the NM cable, at school we have some with a red plastic coating, they have a red & black wire inside, not white. We've been told it's primarily used for heating, but can be used for most things that are 240v. Would the white plastic coated NM cable not be the same thing but be more work since you'd have to identify your white as being hot?
> 
> As for the connector, I must be using the wrong word, I mean a wire connector that you add to the end of jointed cables


Interesting, I wasn't allowed to be in a hot panel without a j-man until 5th year of training. NM cable with red and black conductors is not something I have ever seen either in a panel or for sale, but you can buy all sorts of specialty wire. Connectors for joining wires (wirenuts are one type) are allowed in panels and sometimes there will quite a few especially if the panel has been upgraded from a smaller size. The wires will be too short and need extending. Another reason is to join together two or more branch circuit cables that will be landed on the same breaker.


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## Martine (Jan 26, 2018)

Coppersmith said:


> Interesting, I wasn't allowed to be in a hot panel without a j-man until 5th year of training. NM cable with red and black conductors is not something I have ever seen either in a panel or for sale, but you can buy all sorts of specialty wire. Connectors for joining wires (wirenuts are one type) are allowed in panels and sometimes there will quite a few especially if the panel has been upgraded from a smaller size. The wires will be too short and need extending. Another reason is to join together two or more branch circuit cables that will be landed on the same breaker.


It might be different up in Canada, or my teachers just don't think it's a big deal lain: 

I just checked online for the NMD90 with the red plastic, and all the sites I found are canadian, so it might be a north of the border thing. 

Thanks for answering all my questions, super appreciated!


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

It appears to my eyes that the neutral is using the chassis as a conductor. ( from top to bottom )


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## Martine (Jan 26, 2018)

telsa said:


> It appears to my eyes that the neutral is using the chassis as a conductor. ( from top to bottom )


By chassis do you mean the box?


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Martine said:


> I have a few questions:
> What is that box on the left on the outside of the box?


Typcially le doorbell is most common 



Martine said:


> In what situation would someone need to put a white wire on a breaker?




Useally with straight 240 volts load I remark the blanc conductor with color tape useally rouge or bleu.,, but just becarefull some area may want to use shrink tube instead of tape so I go with marker or tape most of my time. 



Martine said:


> Are we not supposed to cut the wires so they don't snake around like that and sit clean?




I leave some slack to have some room to work around and I dont like super tight or super short conductors it can be pain in bottom if ya try to move it.

In USA side it common to use wirenut ( marette ) to extend it but in Canada they kinda frown on that so pull it back and put it in junction box and string the new one in. 



Martine said:


> In what situation would I need a wire connector (we call it a marette in french but I don't know if that's the right english term) in a breaker box?




Wirenut is most common word it been use in USA. but oui there is few other words for it. 



Martine said:


> I'm only a few months in so I apologize in advance if they're silly questions!


 just go ahead and ask us question.


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

joebanana said:


> Was going to ask you what that black box was. A white wire should never go to a breaker. If anything it should be re-identified as a hot. Yeah, the wires should be dressed better, but, it's normal to leave slack in the hots, in case you have to rearrange circuits, but the neutrals can be a bit shorter since the neutral buss doesn't normally get moved. You're not supposed to splice in a panel, but, you can extend wires if need be. At least that's how we roll in the states.


You can splice in the panel all day.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

TGGT said:


> You can splice in the panel all day.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


IF there's sufficient space, but you're not supposed to use it for a J box.


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

joebanana said:


> IF there's sufficient space, but you're not supposed to use it for a J box.


There's sufficient space all day.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

So they have 1st yr noobs frying panels up there now?

rough vetting system .....:vs_OMG:


~CS~


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

This is a good example of how NOT to wire a panel. I have seen worse installations but this one looks pretty scary. The bonding wire connected to the ground bushing is white ? - Should be green or left bare. The neutral conductor looks bare with black tape - should be white. I don't see a ground bar at all or any grounds at all. It's just screwed to the panel with a tech screw. Surface mounted panel with romex exposed to physical damage. The box on the side of the panel has no cover and the ground wire is just hanging there. What happens when someone brushes up against that and the ground contact the hot? Be careful opening old panels as sometimes there is potential for Arc Flash. Conductors should be formed neatly and secured but not cut short as stated earlier. The feeders going into the main breaker were stripped back a little too much. Basically if the person who installed this panel took pride in what they were doing the makeup would not look like this. As for splicing in a panel avoid it if you can. I just worked on a job that had a fresh service change out and it had wire nuts everywhere and quite a few NM cables were clamped in and the sheathing was to short to even reach the connectors. Even a first year apprentice should be able to do better work than that.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Everything is hack.

The neutral doesn't even look properly sized.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

For the Canadians, what brand is that? I don't think we have those down South. Some of what is OK up there and what is down here is different. What was ok when that was installed may not be now. While not pretty, doesn't mean its unsafe, or not to code, just ugly.


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## Martine (Jan 26, 2018)

Easy said:


> This is a good example of how NOT to wire a panel. I have seen worse installations but this one looks pretty scary. The bonding wire connected to the ground bushing is white ? - Should be green or left bare. The neutral conductor looks bare with black tape - should be white. I don't see a ground bar at all or any grounds at all. It's just screwed to the panel with a tech screw. Surface mounted panel with romex exposed to physical damage. The box on the side of the panel has no cover and the ground wire is just hanging there. What happens when someone brushes up against that and the ground contact the hot? Be careful opening old panels as sometimes there is potential for Arc Flash. Conductors should be formed neatly and secured but not cut short as stated earlier. The feeders going into the main breaker were stripped back a little too much. Basically if the person who installed this panel took pride in what they were doing the makeup would not look like this. As for splicing in a panel avoid it if you can. I just worked on a job that had a fresh service change out and it had wire nuts everywhere and quite a few NM cables were clamped in and the sheathing was to short to even reach the connectors. Even a first year apprentice should be able to do better work than that.


I'm sure my teacher is going to have a field day showing us everything that's wrong with it. My apartment as a whole is just really wonky with the electrical work throughout so I'm not surprised the panel is pretty bad too. Thanks for the heads up about the arc flash possibility.


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## Martine (Jan 26, 2018)

nrp3 said:


> For the Canadians, what brand is that? I don't think we have those down South. Some of what is OK up there and what is down here is different. What was ok when that was installed may not be now. While not pretty, doesn't mean its unsafe, or not to code, just ugly.


It's a commander brand, apparently no one really uses them up here anymore.


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

Martine said:


> oh could very well be the doorbell! I'm not there yet in my program!
> 
> The double breaker with the white wire is identified as heating on the panel, but someone could have very well swapped the breakers at one point. Could it potentially just be that they used RW90 2/14 as 240v without the red sleeve? (once again might not be the right term, I'm a frenchie)


As others said, fine to have a 240V circuit on regular loomex... but the white should be marked.

The blk/red cable is called Heatex. They don't have it down south.

It could very well be a baseboard heater, or your HWT.

As for splicing in the panel, on a new install you can't splice ...
On any rework, circuit move or panel change, you can use marettes.
The US guys aren't restricted.


For questions like this, you'd be better off posting in the Canadian section. A lot of the Canucks only watch those posts, and you'll get canadian references ( Like 12-3032 (2)(a)(ii) for splices) :thumbsup:


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

I am amazed your teacher is telling the class to open live panels!!!! Tell him I said he is an idiot for doing so. 

He has no idea what condition the panels are in for each student and opening them can cause problems. A new apprentice might not even know what they are opening.

And like EMTNUT posted, you should post in the Canadian section. Many codes for Canada are not the same for the USA.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Martine said:


> It's a commander brand, apparently no one really uses them up here anymore.


I see them a lot but they are not made anymore. Easton / Cutler Hammer does make replacement breakers for them.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

chicken steve said:


> So they have 1st yr noobs frying panels up there now?
> 
> rough vetting system .....:vs_OMG:
> 
> ...


Hopefully, you are not allowed in a live panel EVER


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

The laws in my state have changed quite a bit in regards to exposure to live circuits. I had a solar company do some work on my house and the Journeyman doing the actual hookup had his PPE out of his truck and sitting next him while he worked on the panel. However he never put it on. He just had it out in case his boss came, I guess? The gear can be quite confining and that day it was about 98 deg out side. I can see why often times electricians don't put on their "Personal Protective Gear" especially the hoods as they are hard to work in. He probably should have killed the main breaker at least before starting. I remember the last time I had one on it was not that bad because the company I worked for had the decency to buy fans that cooled the suit and that made a big difference. I think anytime you even take a panel cover off you just never know what's waiting to get you. The act of just removing the cover or putting it back on can expose you to danger. There plenty of videos out there showing actual events related to this. One that really sticks in my mind is the engineer that put his face close to a bucket on an MCC panel because it was making noise. The video shows him walking around the vault for a bit looking confused. The very moment he put his ear close to the enclosure to listen to the noise there was an explosion. Boy was he in the wrong place at the wrong time. Be safe out there. You are in control of your own safety so if it's unsafe you have the power to de-energize circuits no matter what anyone says. If you have to residual a time to shut down the power or bring in generators for temp power to critical gear than you need to do that, always.


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