# Odd Problem - Voltage on Metal Roof



## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

To begin with, this happened several years ago. The house in question is a 45 min. drive away. So no im not going back and what info i give in this post is all i have.

HO calls and says Roofer says they are getting shocked between the new tin roof they are installing and the earth. First thought, nails/screws are too long. I call the roofer and have a friendly conversation (i purposely kept it that way, i want him on my side). Meanwhile i find it hard to believe. 

Go to the site, get the vom and an aluminum ladder (on purpose). Meter shows about 60VAC from roof to ladder. Again I find that hard to believe, so i put my sweaty arm on the edge of the roof and the ladder, sure enough it stings a little. Now im on the hunt, i did my best to check every penetration of the roof in some way.

Eventually im at the service entrance and looking for amp differences between phases and neutral in the primary panel, cant find it. I cut the main breaker off, roof is still hot. Finally I pull the meter, still there .....

Go to the natural gas supply line and check for unusual voltage, go to the gas meter and unroll 250' of 12-2G romex for a test jumper back to the house. cant find it.

In desperation to get the roofers back on the job, I drive a ground rod at the edge of the lake (house is located close to a lake/ aka Lake house around here) and connect my jumper to the roof.

At my request roofer calls to let me know every thing is fine, of course HO does not want that eyesore hanging from the roof, so I remove it after the roofer is done.

Long story short ... I still dont know how this happened. Dont forget, I pulled the meter and roof was still hot, I examined the service drop very carefully, it was not touching the roof.

I eventually convinced the HO (a nice lady) that it was the fault of a new cell phone tower about a 1/4 mile away, and therefor was something akin to static electricity. Im not sure if that is possible, but thats my story and im stickin to it LOL


Any ideas ????


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

Service properly grounded otherwise? Didn't get a tingle off the service mast? 

Any HV transmission nearby?


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

Did you physically go into the attic and check for romex stapled to the rafters that was compromised?


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

joe-nwt said:


> Service properly grounded otherwise? Didn't get a tingle off the service mast?
> 
> Any HV transmission nearby?


yes, no, no


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

460 Delta said:


> Did you physically go into the attic and check for romex stapled to the rafters that was compromised?


i did go in the attic. I went there to look at the rafters for wiring, nothing on the rafters


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

How about an energized metallic plumbing vent?

Any other penetrations?


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

joe-nwt said:


> How about an energized metallic plumbing vent?
> 
> Any other penetrations?


come on joe, read the original post. I told you what I checked, .... but none of those


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

If the original post contained all the pertinent information, you wouldn't have answered the questions in posts 2 & 3.

If you don't want:



Almost Retired said:


> Any ideas ????


....then don't ask.


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## Veteran Sparky (Apr 21, 2021)

Is it a areal service? could the roofing material have rubbed the SE cable? I ask because you said you pulled meter (meaning no voltage from meter to load center to house)) and still had the 60v potential.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

If you opened the main, and verified it really opened, then it couldn't be a nail or other fault to the branch circuit wiring, it had to be something upstream of the main. If it wasn't in the aerial conductors where you could examine, maybe inside the mast or something. 

Another possibility is that there's a problem with a neighbor, a neutral problem on a neighbor's service, or something with the power company. Checking to see if there was a problem anywhere other than the roof would have been helpful.


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## Veteran Sparky (Apr 21, 2021)

Wouldn't it be nice if we could add food coloring to current?


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

Veteran Sparky said:


> Is it a areal service? could the roofing material have rubbed the SE cable? I ask because you said you pulled meter (meaning no voltage from meter to load center to house)) and still had the 60v potential.





splatz said:


> If you opened the main, and verified it really opened, then it couldn't be a nail or other fault to the branch circuit wiring, it had to be something upstream of the main. If it wasn't in the aerial conductors where you could examine, maybe inside the mast or something.
> 
> Another possibility is that there's a problem with a neighbor, a neutral problem on a neighbor's service, or something with the power company. Checking to see if there was a problem anywhere other than the roof would have been helpful.


I checked the mast to the ground rod below it. 0V . No way for a line problem to get to the roof, I looked hard for that


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

Almost Retired said:


> I checked the mast to the ground rod below it. 0V . No way for a line problem to get to the roof, I looked hard for that


Come to think of it, it was a through the roof/eaves service. what we call a roof-jack, meter on the outside wall. So I tried Very hard to make the problem related to that


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## Veteran Sparky (Apr 21, 2021)

Almost Retired said:


> I checked the mast to the ground rod below it. 0V . No way for a line problem to get to the roof, I looked hard for that


What about maniac roofer putting nail or screw into it? I am not being condescending btw. If it is areal service, and you pulled meter, there is no way there is potential from the house. Did roofers use generator for power or the house for there cords, which btw are probably **** and all rigged?


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

Almost Retired said:


> Come to think of it, it was a through the roof/eaves service. what we call a roof-jack, meter on the outside wall. So I tried Very hard to make the problem related to that


One tiny possibility just occured to me, what if the airial nuetral was a poor connection? But Im still not sure that would put voltage on the roof.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

Veteran Sparky said:


> What about maniac roofer putting nail or screw into it? I am not being condescending btw. If it is areal service, and you pulled meter, there is no way there is potential from the house. Did roofers use generator for power or the house for there cords, which btw are probably **** and all rigged?


My first thought before i went. roofers didnt have gen, they left early about half way through the job and said well be back when it is fixed. I did my checks with no roofers on the job and nobody home


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## Veteran Sparky (Apr 21, 2021)

Almost Retired said:


> One tiny possibility just occured to me, what if the airial nuetral was a poor connection? But Im still not sure that would put voltage on the roof.


If roof is not in contact with ungrounded conductors, and you are saying the meter is pulled, a loose neutral at the mast is not going to give you 60v potential from roof to earth. Something energized is touching roof.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

Veteran Sparky said:


> If roof is not in contact with ungrounded conductors, and you are saying the meter is pulled, a loose neutral at the mast is not going to give you 60v potential from roof to earth


i was actually thinking about at the trnsfrmr. However, before i killed power i was measuring with a clampmeter and getting an almost perfect sum of the phase and neutral current readings. Just a few tenths off, but attribute that much at least to the meter placement on the conductors


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

My first thought is "WHY DID YOU LEAVE IT LIKE THIS". If some one leans a aluminum ladder on the house is wet weather you now have that shock hazard at ground level when someone touch's the ladder.

Think of it theory wise.
You have a ungrounded roof, that is hot how is it getting there?
Nail in wire. -- no you pulled the meter.
Service entrance entrance issue. - you say you checked and it looks good. ( should of called POCO to pull main fuse to confirm).
Backfeed from water or gas pipe. you did not say what the current was on the temp ground wire.
Jumping over air from cell tower - If you found this true you would be rich.

Cowboy


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

just the cowboy said:


> My first thought is "WHY DID YOU LEAVE IT LIKE THIS". If some one leans a aluminum ladder on the house is wet weather you now have that shock hazard at ground level when someone touch's the ladder.
> 
> Think of it theory wise.
> You have a ungrounded roof, that is hot how is it getting there?
> ...


I didnt want to leave it like that. But I had tried everything i could think of. I dont recall if there was current on the grounding jumper. I am inclined to say there was none, or i wouldnt have left it that way. I do realize the danger and liability/responsibility of that.


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

Just because you pulled the meter doesn’t mean that you killed all the power to the house. Unmetered taps above the meter can and do exist…


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

Almost Retired said:


> I didnt want to leave it like that. But I had tried everything i could think of. I dont recall if there was current on the grounding jumper. I am inclined to say there was none, or i wouldnt have left it that way. I do realize the danger and liability/responsibility of that.


The POCO was the next choice before leaving, even if they had to shut down the whole block/area. Report a safety issue and they will be right out, they have no choice.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

460 Delta said:


> Just because you pulled the meter doesn’t mean that you killed all the power to the house. Unmetered taps above the meter can and do exist…


well i was lookin for that and it wasnt there. I also voltage meter checked the meter lugs for in and out phase to phase and phase to neutral , checked good


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

just the cowboy said:


> The POCO was the next choice before leaving, even if they had to shut down the whole block/area. Report a safety issue and they will be right out, they have no choice.


I was convinced it wasnt poco, or i would have called


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## samgregger (Jan 23, 2013)

I'm not sure how checking the meter lugs would catch a tap before the meter lugs...


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

samgregger said:


> I'm not sure how checking the meter lugs would catch a tap before the meter lugs...


the purpose of checking was to verify that it wasnt leaking past the meter lugs somehow. I was visual check certain there were no taps


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## SWDweller (Dec 9, 2020)

Out of the box thought. Did the roofers have a compressor/gen trailer? Around here the termites and some of the other trades use trailers with air compressor and electric generator powered by the same motor. They run air and extension cords from these trailers. Nick in the extension cord???? 
Remember out of the box thinking.


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

I think I would contact the home owner and tell them you have been thinking about this, and you want to run a couple more checks (for free). If you are sure you have voltage on the roof to ground, set up a time with the PoCo to have them disconnect then reconnect the drop while you see what happens to the voltage on the roof. IMO you have some responsibility to at least correctly informing the homeowner of a problem. If I understand this correctly, you left a problem and explained it away with a voodo reason. 

Also, I'm really curious as to what's going on and I'm using whatever pressure I can to get you to go find out.


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## SteveBayshore (Apr 7, 2013)

I had a problem at a friends house a few years ago. He sat on the edge of his pool the with his feet in the water and leaned back on his hands in the grass and said come and feel this, I am getting a tingling through my hands. I said get the f--- out of there. Whenever I came across unexplained circumstances in the past "it" has *always* been an open neutral problem. Tested all around,yup there's voltage there. Turned off his main, still voltage. Started looking around, neighbor next door had a visible broken neutral. Turned off the neighbors main and the voltage was gone. Turned out that the pool grid was the best path to complete the circuit. You need to locate and isolate the problem, there is a potential for a dangerous mishap.


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

Cable tv, phone line or roof antenna can all become a path when stray voltage is looking for a path home. The difficult part is working out if power is trying to use something to get to ground or is power in the soil trying to find a path with less resistance by using something it shouldn't. 

At the end of the day power has to return to where it was made which is the poco transformer on the pole. If 3 homes share the same poco transformer then any one of the 3 with a fault will use any path it can find to get back to the transformer. Soil sucks as a conductor compared to a nice tin roof that's connected with copper to a grounding point. (most antenna, phone lines have lightning protection which is a easy path) 

If you have a 100 foot of wire you can connect one end to the roof and wire nut the other end to a voltmeter probe then walk around the home jabbing the other probe into the soil. The closer to the fault you get the higher the voltage. If you feel your balls tingle take small steps as you are in the direct path of the problem. 

Great thing with poco is they suck at troubleshooting these problems so they simply turn off home's until the problem clears then they cut that home free. That gives you a instant customer.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

oldsparky52 said:


> I think I would contact the home owner and tell them you have been thinking about this, and you want to run a couple more checks (for free). If you are sure you have voltage on the roof to ground, set up a time with the PoCo to have them disconnect then reconnect the drop while you see what happens to the voltage on the roof. IMO you have some responsibility to at least correctly informing the homeowner of a problem. If I understand this correctly, you left a problem and explained it away with a voodo reason.
> 
> Also, I'm really curious as to what's going on and I'm using whatever pressure I can to get you to go find out.


 Dude ... if you are all about free and that curious ... come on down to north central louisiana. PM me and i will give you the google maps link. LOL

It has been 2 years and no word, im not stirring that hornet nest


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

oldsparky52 said:


> I think I would contact the home owner and tell them you have been thinking about this, and you want to run a couple more checks (for free). If you are sure you have voltage on the roof to ground, set up a time with the PoCo to have them disconnect then reconnect the drop while you see what happens to the voltage on the roof. IMO you have some responsibility to at least correctly informing the homeowner of a problem. If I understand this correctly, you left a problem and explained it away with a voodo reason.
> 
> Also, I'm really curious as to what's going on and I'm using whatever pressure I can to get you to go find out.


I did tell them they had a problem, and i could not find or fix it....... i did NOT tell them they were safe


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

gpop said:


> Cable tv, phone line or roof antenna can all become a path when stray voltage is looking for a path home. The difficult part is working out if power is trying to use something to get to ground or is power in the soil trying to find a path with less resistance by using something it shouldn't.
> 
> At the end of the day power has to return to where it was made which is the poco transformer on the pole. If 3 homes share the same poco transformer then any one of the 3 with a fault will use any path it can find to get back to the transformer. Soil sucks as a conductor compared to a nice tin roof that's connected with copper to a grounding point. (most antenna, phone lines have lightning protection which is a easy path)
> 
> ...


I like your concept and method of looking for the fault. there were some suggestions of gas lines, water lines earlier today.. i had not thought about phone and sat, good points. I agree with you 110% ,,, it WILL go back to where it came from ,,, best way it can find.. but as i said in another reply:: i told them they had a problem that i could not find or fix. it has been over 2 years and no word. I expect that if what you suggest was true, it got worse and showed itself and got fixed


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

We are surrounded by E & M waves. There is no avoiding it. Maybe these waves are inducing a potential on the tin roof. Bond it to the GEC or to the grounding electrode somehow and the voltage should go away. Years ago we had to bond an aluminum sided house at diagonal corners. I am curious, did you use a digital volt meter or a wiggy? If you clip on a digital meter and then put a pigtail and incandescent lamp, does the voltage go away?


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

In industrial buildings with the Plastic roofs ( EPDM ? ) I have to continuously bond myself and lift to prevent static shocks when I touch the metal bar joists or anything metal at the ceiling locations.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

kb1jb1 said:


> We are surrounded by E & M waves. There is no avoiding it. Maybe these waves are inducing a potential on the tin roof. Bond it to the GEC or to the grounding electrode somehow and the voltage should go away. Years ago we had to bond an aluminum sided house at diagonal corners. I am curious, did you use a digital volt meter or a wiggy? If you clip on a digital meter and then put a pigtail and incandescent lamp, does the voltage go away?


that is part of my post,, it is what i told the HO. but i ended that thought with: "I cannot find or fix the problem", which implies you are not safe... i used digital, i have a pigtail test lite but did not use it, mostly because i ony had 60VAC... you should know ... you are not agreed with about airwave problems by nearly all people replying to this post... after reading some of the suggestions, i realize there were other things i could have checked, most likely is another customer on the same transformer drop that really did have neutral problems but didnt know it


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

Almost Retired said:


> that is part of my post,, it is what i told the HO. but i ended that thought with: "I cannot find or fix the problem", which implies you are not safe... i used digital, i have a pigtail test lite but did not use it, mostly because i ony had 60VAC... you should know ... you are not agreed with about airwave problems by nearly all people replying to this post... after reading some of the suggestions, i realize there were other things i could have checked, most likely is another customer on the same transformer drop that really did have neutral problems but didnt know it


OH ... i havent mentioned this before because i had forgotten (2 yrs) when i put a grounding jumper on the roof to a ground rod driven in shallow water of the nearby lake (in the small backyard) ,,,,, i could not measure any current flow with a clampmeter


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Almost Retired said:


> that is part of my post,, it is what i told the HO. but i ended that thought with: "I cannot find or fix the problem", which implies you are not safe... i used digital, i have a pigtail test lite but did not use it, mostly because i ony had 60VAC... you should know ... you are not agreed with about airwave problems by nearly all people replying to this post... after reading some of the suggestions, i realize there were other things i could have checked, most likely is another customer on the same transformer drop that really did have neutral problems but didnt know it


I re-read and as you said, "cell phone tower". I suggested the pigtail test with an incandescent lamp in conjunction with the digital meter to rule out induced voltage. A 120 volt lamp should light at 60 volts but if it is an induced voltage then the digital meter should read 0 and the lamp will not light. Many times when changing the water clamp I will see a small spark but not enough to do anything. Do not use an isolated ground rod but bond to the existing GE system. If a pipe service, bond to the mast.
A vacuum cleaner with all plastic hoses will cause shocks because of the static.


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## NoBot (Oct 12, 2019)

When I troubleshoot something like this, I drive a ground rod about 75 feet away from the building. Then I connect and insulated wire like #12 stranded green.
I test for voltage using only the ground rod. I've found crazy things like leaking voltage from a sub station over the hill, hot touching the side of an ungrounded wire trough/gutter, voltage on the water line caused by a neighbors open neutral, DC voltage on a gas line


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

I hate stray voltage calls

next time I'll look around for nearby cel tower


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## WannabeTesla (Feb 24, 2020)

If it was a ghost voltage, i don't think a shock would have been felt-i may be wrong.
Have you ruled out a bootleg connection- is one of the neighbors running an extension cord? I've seen that before. Maybe this house is borrowing water from a neighbor and there's a problem in the line? I've seen that before.
This is a nice one. If you had offered me the chance to come look at it, I'd actually consider it.


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## wiz1997 (Mar 30, 2021)

Gpop was close.

Around here the phone company used 60 volts to power the phone lines.
Back then you didn't need to plug in your base station.
I still keep an old "princess" phone for when we lose power.

Did you disconnect the phone lines from the house?


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## WannabeTesla (Feb 24, 2020)

wiz1997 said:


> Around here the phone company used 60 volts to power the phone lines.
> I still keep an old "princess" phone for when we lose power.


I'm just now getting into phone/ data and I'm working in a home with an old phone line. 1A2 KTU system, i believe. I have two(2) questions: 
1) What's a "princess" phone? b) Is it pink, and do i have to twirl the cord dreamily while i talk on it?


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## wiz1997 (Mar 30, 2021)

A "princess" phone.
Mine is harvest gold with push buttons.
Pink, blue and avocado green were other colors available.

They also made a wall phone that looked similar.
Typically there was a 25 foot cord between the wall base and the handset.
Usually mounted in the kitchen.

For a good laugh, give a kid a rotary phone and tell them to dial a number.
It generally takes them awhile to figure it out.


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

I was working at a house a few years ago and got the same message from the roofers. I had them clip a wire to the metal roof that I made up to one of my meter probes. I checked to ground in a subpanel that was for pool equipment. I read 120V and also saw sparks when they clipped the lead to the roof. I was actually able to kill the voltage by turning off the subpanel. Turns out one of the motors for the pumps was bad. I was actually there to change the pump motors anyway.

What I (finally) figured out was the voltage was going into the ground and made it's way to the roof through a gas line, to a stove upstairs, and via the vent pipe to the roof. I know the OP said he still had voltage with the meter pulled. What I'm offering is, whether the voltage is from the service or not doesn't make a difference, it's the path it can take to unwanted areas. So phone lines, gas lines, cable/satellite, etc. can be a path.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

kb1jb1 said:


> We are surrounded by E & M waves. There is no avoiding it. Maybe these waves are inducing a potential on the tin roof. Bond it to the GEC or to the grounding electrode somehow and the voltage should go away. Years ago we had to bond an aluminum sided house at diagonal corners. I am curious, did you use a digital volt meter or a wiggy? If you clip on a digital meter and then put a pigtail and incandescent lamp, does the voltage go away?


I refer you to post 19


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Almost Retired said:


> I refer you to post 19


? Post #19. Which part applies?


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

gpop said:


> Cable tv, phone line or roof antenna can all become a path when stray voltage is looking for a path home. The difficult part is working out if power is trying to use something to get to ground or is power in the soil trying to find a path with less resistance by using something it shouldn't.
> 
> At the end of the day power has to return to where it was made which is the poco transformer on the pole. If 3 homes share the same poco transformer then any one of the 3 with a fault will use any path it can find to get back to the transformer. Soil sucks as a conductor compared to a nice tin roof that's connected with copper to a grounding point. (most antenna, phone lines have lightning protection which is a easy path)
> 
> ...


Perhaps your area is different from mine. The water and gas meter is always closer to poco pole than any house. Gas line is metal, water meter is brass, poco pole has large coil of #4 copper on the bottom connected directly to the neutral point. So i dont see those 2 being it. Phone , maybe so. Satellite only not cable, so no.

I just thought of something else, they had a water well near the house for irrigation, not turned on but connected in the panel ,,,,,, I do believe that would make a better path to poco than the roof


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

kb1jb1 said:


> ? Post #19. Which part applies?


"You would be rich"


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

kb1jb1 said:


> In industrial buildings with the Plastic roofs ( EPDM ? ) I have to continuously bond myself and lift to prevent static shocks when I touch the metal bar joists or anything metal at the ceiling locations.


Since when is building steel not bonded?????


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

WannabeTesla said:


> I'm just now getting into phone/ data and I'm working in a home with an old phone line. 1A2 KTU system, i believe. I have two(2) questions:
> 1) What's a "princess" phone? b) Is it pink, and do i have to twirl the cord dreamily while i talk on it?


sometimes and yes. actually it was oblong shaped, low profile, sit on the nightstand next to the bed. Quite often had slightly longer hand set cord than normal. Originally rotary dial, later pb. Hi-end model lit up the dial or buttons when receiver was lifted.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

Almost Retired said:


> sometimes and yes. actually it was oblong shaped, low profile, sit on the nightstand next to the bed. Quite often had slightly longer hand set cord than normal. Originally rotary dial, later pb. Hi-end model lit up the dial or buttons when receiver was lifted.


EDIT / UPDATE

After a full day of questions and answers, my memory has been refreshed on a few things. Also I have not mentioned this before but i very often work with another fully qualified electrician. I had him with me the last trip to that house. We bounced ideas back and forth, if we liked them, we tried them.

My grounding jumper to the roof did not show any current while attached to the roof and an 8' GR in the edge of the lake

There was a water well for irrigation within 60' of the house, ground and neutral still connected in the panel with breaker off
I think this would have ruled out the roof for neighbor probs etc coming through the soil

The only thing suggested that I did not check or rule out was the phone, and I dont have a clue why it would go to the roof where there is no path to ground

Thank you to everyone who replied, but I am not convinced that the solution has been found yet


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

Almost Retired said:


> Since when is building steel not bonded?????


not certain on this, but isnt it you, or the machine, who is generating static somehow? You are insulated on rubber tires in a lift. Building steel is bonded to ground. ... Could it be the clothes you are wearing? Are you using an extension cord ? I have worked from a lift inside many times and never had this problem, however never under a plastic roof. again im not certain.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

WannabeTesla said:


> If it was a ghost voltage, i don't think a shock would have been felt-i may be wrong.
> Have you ruled out a bootleg connection- is one of the neighbors running an extension cord? I've seen that before. Maybe this house is borrowing water from a neighbor and there's a problem in the line? I've seen that before.
> This is a nice one. If you had offered me the chance to come look at it, I'd actually consider it.
> [/QUOTE
> no extension cords or water hoses between neighbors


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

I have not read all the response so forgive me if this has been said. If there was still power with the meter pulled then you have voltage in the earth not on the roof. The roof is grounded somewhere so that is how yo are getting shocked.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I have not read all the response so forgive me if this has been said. If there was still power with the meter pulled then you have voltage in the earth not on the roof. The roof is grounded somewhere so that is how yo are getting shocked.


LOL ... everybody likes to do that. an idea hits, no time to check the whole thread (yes its very long, its a tough problem which is why i posted it). My recent comment labeled UPDATE //// there is a water well within 60' of the house, breaker is off, neutral and ground still connected in the panel, im fairly sure that rules out a back feed from the earth. Also the GEC and GE were in very good condition and all needed bonding and grounding in the service were zero ohms connected. I checked the grounding system for the whole service Very carefully


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

Almost Retired said:


> LOL ... everybody likes to do that. an idea hits, no time to check the whole thread (yes its very long, its a tough problem which is why i posted it). My recent comment labeled UPDATE //// there is a water well within 60' of the house, breaker is off, neutral and ground still connected in the panel, im fairly sure that rules out a back feed from the earth. Also the GEC and GE were in very good condition and all needed bonding and grounding in the service were zero ohms connected. I checked the grounding system for the whole service Very carefully


I noticed the title changed .... your doing ? i dont mind , just curious


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

A Little Short said:


> I was working at a house a few years ago and got the same message from the roofers. I had them clip a wire to the metal roof that I made up to one of my meter probes. I checked to ground in a subpanel that was for pool equipment. I read 120V and also saw sparks when they clipped the lead to the roof. I was actually able to kill the voltage by turning off the subpanel. Turns out one of the motors for the pumps was bad. I was actually there to change the pump motors anyway.
> 
> What I (finally) figured out was the voltage was going into the ground and made it's way to the roof through a gas line, to a stove upstairs, and via the vent pipe to the roof. I know the OP said he still had voltage with the meter pulled. What I'm offering is, whether the voltage is from the service or not doesn't make a difference, it's the path it can take to unwanted areas. So phone lines, gas lines, cable/satellite, etc. can be a path.


no pool. but yeah i have seen several pool pumps not on GFCI breakers start leaking and cause many problems.

gas and water meters are much closer to poco pole than the house. if they had to go through earth they would prefer the closer poco pole. no cable, satellite not on roof. they did have landline, only thing i did not check


----------



## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Almost Retired said:


> Since when is building steel not bonded?????


That's why you get the static nip when you touch it right?


----------



## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

splatz said:


> That's why you get the static nip when you touch it right?


I felt he was saying the rubber roof was generating static 
but the roof is connected to building at some point and that would drain it
I recently suggested to him that he is insulated on rubber tires. could be his clothes or the machine making static ?


----------



## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

Almost Retired said:


> I felt he was saying the rubber roof was generating static
> but the roof is connected to building at some point and that would drain it
> I recently suggested to him that he is insulated on rubber tires. could be his clothes or the machine making static ?


@splatz kb1jb1 is the op for this


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Almost Retired said:


> I felt he was saying the rubber roof was generating static
> but the roof is connected to building at some point and that would drain it
> I recently suggested to him that he is insulated on rubber tires. could be his clothes or the machine making static ?


As far as I know most lifts / buckets are somewhat insulated from ground by the tires but there are lifts made for high voltage work that are much better insulated from ground contact. 

As for where the static comes from - I think the charge could build up from the moving lift but couldn't it come from the wind? After all that's where lightning comes from right?


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

Several years before this incident. I found a metal roof with voltage on it. HO says Vent hood over stove is crackling, it is vented through the roof. Look up the vent and yes sparks are jumping across the joints of the vent pipe. EGC is connected in the vent hood, and bonded in the panel. Ohm meter verified. 2 days of trouble shooting and i finally found that the neutral bar in a stand alone 200A disconnect has lost continuity (bolt on lugs for the supply/load conductors). Fixed that and voila, circuit breaker for hood trips, motor is bad. Time for a new hood.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

I did not change the title if that what you were asking before. 

I don't see how the well or grounding electrode conductor has anything to do with stray voltage in the ground.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

splatz said:


> As far as I know most lifts / buckets are somewhat insulated from ground by the tires but there are lifts made for high voltage work that are much better insulated from ground contact.
> 
> As for where the static comes from - I think the charge could build up from the moving lift but couldn't it come from the wind? After all that's where lightning comes from right?


He is under roof, but maybe no walls, so wind maybe in a hurricane? It takes more than a gentle breeze to generate static. I have worked in lifts inside and out more times than i can count. never had a static problem


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I did not change the title if that what you were asking before.
> 
> I don't see how the well or grounding electrode conductor has anything to do with stray voltage in the ground.


I believe voltage/current in the ground would rather go back to poco by way of either of them as opposed to the roof, which clearly had no path to ground because my grounding jumper to the roof removed the voltage from it


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Yes but that was a direct hookup. The other situation you are using the earth-- not a great conductor


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Yes but that was a direct hookup. The other situation you are using the earth-- not a great conductor


I did not bring up the possibility of current seeking a way to poco from the earth through the roof, i was replying to another person who suggested it and telling them why i did not think it applied


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

Almost Retired said:


> I did not bring up the possibility of current seeking a way to poco from the earth through the roof, i was replying to another person who suggested it and telling them why i did not think it applied


There is a whole day, and 3 pages of posts before today, if you dont read it all, you wont be caught up on the current suggested solution


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

Almost Retired said:


> I noticed the title changed .... your doing ? i dont mind , just curious


I changed the thread title. We get lots of threads "Hey can you help me" or "Wow this is a problem" where the titles say nothing about the content.
For moderators who maintain some sort of order around here, it makes it easier to keep a grasp on what's going on.
For members it helps to know which thread they are reading.
For people doing research it makes it easier to find that thread from five years ago.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

MikeFL said:


> I changed the thread title. We get lots of threads "Hey can you help me" or "Wow this is a problem" where the titles say nothing about the content.
> For moderators who maintain some sort of order around here, it makes it easier to keep a grasp on what's going on.
> For members it helps to know which thread they are reading.


AHA LOL. i dont mind, i also understand your logic. In fact i am glad you did, considering your logic. nother topic/question: is there a considerable lag here? slow updating? or is it just my connection?


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

As to current flowing through the ground, it happens.

You can probe it out to find the source. Connect a lead to a known location with voltage present (roof), connect the other lead to a probe you walk around the yard looking for changes.

If it's highest at the building, the problem is at the building.

If it's 60 at the building and goes up to 80 over near your neighbor's house, it's possibly coming from the neighbor.

If it's higher towards that lake that has a commercial marina you didn't tell us about, it's coming from there.

It's the intermittent ones that are hard to find, like when a child playing in a park gets killed because they touched a fence.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

MikeFL said:


> As to current flowing through the ground, it happens.
> 
> You can probe it out to find the source. Connect a lead to a known location with voltage present (roof), connect the other lead to a probe you walk around the yard looking for changes.
> 
> ...


I agree. I know for a fact that current does flow through the ground. However i have listed several paths that would be much more convenient, and i checked the ohead service very carefully.
There was no marina of any kind on that lake, (very few personal boat docks) it is not much bigger than a pasture pond. just barely big enough for 3 ski boats at one time.

Driving a ground rod in the edge of the water and running a jumper to the roof made the voltage and shocking disappear. That tells me the roof did not have an initial ground connection or that would have drained it. Also no roof connection to ground would mean that stray power didnt go to the roof looking for a path to ground, which again if it was grounded there would be no voltage on it and no shocking.

Further more I had a fully qualified and 25 yrs experience (including trouble shooting) electrician with me on the last trip. we both talked and brainstormed and theorized; if neither of us could disprove the others theory, we tried it, no matter how improbable

All these reasons and circumstances are why i posted it here. So far i have not had a suggestion that i find possible. most ppl just read a portion of the thread and suggest the first thing they think of, which has usually been suggested several times before.

I also realize that it is Very difficult when you have never been there to look at it and test it the way you would like to. Further more i am in north louisiana, a good portion of the members are not familiar with the way services, etc. are done here

There is way over a million years of combined experience in this membership (74,700 members). Some where somebody knows the answer, they just havent looked at this thread yet


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

We can guess all day. Without you going back to take other tests and reading it is only guess work. 
Example is what I said about the POCO turning off power there and in an area. Without doing this your main option, the rest is guess work. You had quite a few good answers, but without testing you will never know.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

just the cowboy said:


> We can guess all day. Without you going back to take other tests and reading it is only guess work.
> Example is what I said about the POCO turning off power there and in an area. Without doing this your main option, the rest is guess work. You had quite a few good answers, but without testing you will never know.


I agree completely. And I am not surprised that no one has thought of anything new, because as you said, if you cant go there and observe/test like you want to, there isnt much hope. But as I told another poster, i told HO before i left "you have a problem that i cannot find and fix". That was over 2 yrs ago, i am not stirring that hornet nest any more

I really do appreciate the time, effort, and interest that everyone has invested in trying to answer this for me.

Thank you !!


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Almost Retired said:


> Since when is building steel not bonded?????


Combination of wind on the roof and being on a scissor lift I assume static charges built up. We either tied a piece of copper wire to the lift to drag on the ground or we clipped a piece of wire to the bar joist as we went. Getting hit with a static shock 20 feet in the air is not fun. 
Has anybody else ran into this?


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

kb1jb1 said:


> Combination of wind on the roof and being on a scissor lift I assume static charges built up. We either tied a piece of copper wire to the lift to drag on the ground or we clipped a piece of wire to the bar joist as we went. Getting hit with a static shock  20 feet in the air is not fun.
> Has anybody else ran into this?


Yes it is the lift has no drag straps on it. Common on fork trucks when driver get off if straps are worn or missing.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Almost Retired said:


> "You would be rich"


Have you ever seen a lose fluorescent tube near a transmitter? Electric and Magnetic fields are all around us. Do you know how the red lights on transmission towers get powered? Induction lighting? The new induction car chargers. The charging pads for cell phones. All examples of wireless charging. If the meter was pulled, where could voltage come from?


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

just the cowboy said:


> Yes it is the lift has no drag straps on it. Common on fork trucks when driver get off if straps are worn or missing.


I stand corrected, my apologies


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Almost Retired said:


> I felt he was saying the rubber roof was generating static
> but the roof is connected to building at some point and that would drain it
> I recently suggested to him that he is insulated on rubber tires. could be his clothes or the machine making static ?


Yes I was creating the problem static. I was not clear on that. I was just illustrating that I had to be on the same potential plane as the rest of the building. I believe the OP stated when he connected a ground rod the shocks stopped. Put everything on the same potential plane.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

MikeFL said:


> As to current flowing through the ground, it happens.
> 
> You can probe it out to find the source. Connect a lead to a known location with voltage present (roof), connect the other lead to a probe you walk around the yard looking for changes.
> 
> ...


Of course current flows through the ground. I wasn't trying to imply that but not enough to trip a breaker. Maybe I misunderstood what Almost Retired said but I was responding to that comment.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

kb1jb1 said:


> Have you ever seen a lose fluorescent tube near a transmitter? Electric and Magnetic fields are all around us. Do you know how the red lights on transmission towers get powered? Induction lighting? The new induction car chargers. The charging pads for cell phones. All examples of wireless charging. If the meter was pulled, where could voltage come from?


I know about the florescent tube held in one hand at the middle, under a HV line. I know about the tube hanging in the ham radio room.
I am not arguing the existence of any thing you have brought up.
But how many calls have you had for a shocking metal roof? My point is that it is extremely rare and therefor is not due to common airwaves. Every metal roof in the world would do that and NEC would have a procedure for roofers


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

kb1jb1 said:


> Yes I was creating the problem static. I was not clear on that. I was just illustrating that I had to be on the same potential plane as the rest of the building. I believe the OP stated when he connected a ground rod the shocks stopped. Put everything on the same potential plane.


aha , now i understand the reason you posted that


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Of course current flows through the ground. I wasn't trying to imply that but not enough to trip a breaker. Maybe I misunderstood what Almost Retired said but I was responding to that comment.


And I was responding to the post after yours. I should have quoted it.


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## HertzHound (Jan 22, 2019)

just the cowboy said:


> Yes it is the lift has no drag straps on it. Common on fork trucks when driver get off if straps are worn or missing.


Man, your bring back some memories. Remember when you used to see cars with those static straps. They were kinda popular. Almost as popular as curb feelers.


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

HertzHound said:


> Man, your bring back some memories. Remember when you used to see cars with those static straps. They were kinda popular. Almost as popular as curb feelers.


Nylon or something in the tires, steel belted radials got rid of that.


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

kb1jb1 said:


> Have you ever seen a lose fluorescent tube near a transmitter?


Yes I have done that experiment under high voltage lines holding tube in one hand and waving it. You need to put your fingers over one set of pins for it to work and I have only got it to glow dim, but it did light.


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## HertzHound (Jan 22, 2019)

I’m in the group that believes the problem is a bad neutral at a neighbors house. For a few years I had 4 amps on my water pipe ground. I think I noticed it when I changed my service. When I saw the power company at my neighbors house one day, I checked it again after they were gone. 0 amps on my water main.

It has been talked about it here in the past. I think I read that you should throw an amp clamp on every building and house you work on. Just to get an idea of what is normal. Even in a perfect system it’s possible to get a small reading. It’s just trying to get back to the source. It will divide based on ohms law. Or maybe it was Kirchoff’s? Maybe both?


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## HertzHound (Jan 22, 2019)

just the cowboy said:


> Nylon or something in the tires, steel belted radials got rid of that.


Didn’t it help the radio too? To get rid of the static noise. I remember they sold capacitor too for the distributor noise.


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

HertzHound said:


> I’m in the group that believes the problem is a bad neutral at a neighbors house.


Okay, but how is it getting on the roof? Aren't the roof penetration boots non conductive? I doubt a water line is up there.


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

oldsparky52 said:


> Okay, but how is it getting on the roof? Aren't the roof penetration boots non conductive? I doubt a water line is up there.


Not all penetration's are non conductive, think of a woodstove pipe or b-vent. Blower on stove has ground, blower is mounted to stove, pipe runs up thru roof.

BUT this would put voltage on any metal grounded surface in the house. So back to square one.


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## Bluenose for rent (Nov 6, 2020)

just the cowboy said:


> Not all penetration's are non conductive, think of a woodstove pipe or b-vent. Blower on stove has ground, blower is mounted to stove, pipe runs up thru roof.
> 
> BUT this would put voltage on any metal grounded surface in the house. So back to square one.


Yep steel service mast with a tight fit on the metal roofing, it’s bonded right to neutral in the meter base.


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

Bluenose for rent said:


> Yep steel service mast with a tight fit on the metal roofing, it’s bonded right to neutral in the meter base.


Is it possible the metal roof could be acting like a capacitor somehow? IDK, just thinking wildly.


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## radio208 (Aug 27, 2014)

I know a cell tower was mentioned...How about an high power AM tower near by (50 KW)? On another site, engineers had to apply an inductor/ capacitors install because the chain-link fence became energized...enough to sting you..


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

This is a long but interesting thread with several tangents. What was / is the status and cause of the shocks? Was it ever solved ? #94 seems like the most logical. Some sort of induced voltage. I can't see a neighbor's stray voltage making it to the roof.


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

just the cowboy said:


> Not all penetration's are non conductive, think of a woodstove pipe or b-vent. Blower on stove has ground, blower is mounted to stove, pipe runs up thru roof.
> 
> BUT this would put voltage on any metal grounded surface in the house. So back to square one.



You missed the part that describes the shock. Remove the ladder and you remove the problem. (shock is when you bridge the gap between the aluminum ladder and roof)

Adding a easier path to reduce the 5-10 ma of current required to be perceivable works which is why adding a temp ground rod and jumper seemed to fix the problem.(voltage takes all paths amps take the path of least resistance) Ma would not be something you could measure with a standard amp clamp so there's no surprise nothing was measured. If the difference had been measured in amps there probably would have been a pile of body's where the roofers had been poked and fell of the ladder in the first place.


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

kb1jb1 said:


> This is a long but interesting thread with several tangents. What was / is the status and cause of the shocks? Was it ever solved ? #94 seems like the most logical. Some sort of induced voltage. I can't see a neighbor's stray voltage making it to the roof.


Easy test for induced is to ground it then watch the recovery. As it would have to charge up the 100's of square feet of metal roof the recovery would be slow.


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## radio208 (Aug 27, 2014)

Hope we find out what the real cause was...In any event, this has been a real 'pick your brain' thread!...Interesting to hear all the theories...That's what I like about this site...as I'm sure all of us do...


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## WannabeTesla (Feb 24, 2020)

I think this is our solution to the energy situation. Here you are with free power and you want to stop it? 

Early in my resi experience I had a call where the neutral was bad. I didn't recognize it immediately because my V readings looked good all the way around. It manifested in the cable tv conductors. When the third tech came out to make the third repair, he recognized that no, these coax cables should not, in fact, be repeatedly melting. After wishing i had a megger, doing the work the hard way, and recognizing the symptoms, i called it in. The compromised neutral was acting like a capacitor. Since then I've re- adopted my first troubleshooting lesson- don't rule it out until you properly rule it out. Bad/ intermittently bad conductor, coupled with "excellent" cable/ internet tech grounding/bonding practices could show up anywhere. 

I can't take much more of this- i need closure! 
💩💩💩


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Did I make the 100th poster?
If so do I win anything?


----------



## WannabeTesla (Feb 24, 2020)

kb1jb1 said:


> Did I make the 100th poster?
> If so do I win anything?


With my assist...


----------



## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

kb1jb1 said:


> Did I make the 100th poster?
> If so do I win anything?


Just some recognition.


----------



## batwing44 (Feb 2, 2010)

wiz1997 said:


> A "princess" phone.
> Mine is harvest gold with push buttons.
> Pink, blue and avocado green were other colors available.
> 
> ...


Aw... The Princess telephone. Had a dial that would light up when the phone went "off hook" power supplied by a very hot wall wart. 6.3vac. Remember them well.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

batwing44 said:


> Aw... The Princess telephone. Had a dial that would light up when the phone went "off hook" power supplied by a very hot wall wart. 6.3vac. Remember them well.


Now that's a new one to me, or at least one I forgot. Was the wall wart at the wall jack or was it in the basement / service entrance? 

This was probably later, but I remember some of the phones (maybe the trimlines?) drew power from the CO on the yellow & black for the touchpad backlight, kind of a precursor to PoE.


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## HertzHound (Jan 22, 2019)

I changed a service with a coworker once that had current on the coax. I was in the basement with a drop light doing the inside. My partner moved the cheater cord down to the meter socket while he tied in the top. I probably came outside for a minute while he swapped it. For whatever reason he tied in the hots first, neutral last. When he hooked up the hot that the cheater cord was on, I saw the light come on in the basement? The only neutral was the ground rod and cable ground connection, because the neutral up top wasn’t tied in yet.

I guess that would be kinda normal though. It was trying to get back to its source without the service neutral being hooked up. But that is why there is always a little something leaving on parallel paths. Whether it’s the water ground or some other utility. As long as the service neutral has the lowest resistance, it shouldn’t be a problem.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

oldsparky52 said:


> Okay, but how is it getting on the roof? Aren't the roof penetration boots non conductive? I doubt a water line is up there.


I agree, why would it go to the roof? the roof was ungrounded and therefor not a viable return path. I stated a day or 2 ago that around here the water meters sit in the dirt, they are brass. the poco has poles with #4 solid bare on the side and coiled on the bottom. Water meter, gas meter, are both much closer to the pole than any houses. I did check the gas supply line to the house with a jumper to both ends, no voltage difference at all.

Nothing i have seen suggested makes me say AHA. some of it makes me think about it and then say i doubt it.


----------



## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

kb1jb1 said:


> This is a long but interesting thread with several tangents. What was / is the status and cause of the shocks? Was it ever solved ? #94 seems like the most logical. Some sort of induced voltage. I can't see a neighbor's stray voltage making it to the roof.


I agree that there is very little reason for a roof to be energized. (Before this I did actually find and solve a different one, bad main neutral connection. Roofjack and tin touching the mast.) furthermore when i put a grounding jumper on it, that stopped the voltage and shocking, AND there was no measurable current on the jumper. of course the ho didnt want the ugly thing hanging off the house, so i was asked to remove it after the roofers finished.
It was a through the roof/eaves, meter on the outside wall, (we call it a roofjack) and i did check from the mast to the tin roof, zero volts at that point. Also checked the mast to the GEC and ground rod = 0V

AS the OP. I can tell you that i havent been called back. that was 2 years ago, i am not going back and stirring that up again LOL. when i asked this question i was hoping someone else had seen it before and could give me a plausible explanation that they found and fixed it. I had no idea it would become this unmanageable saga that seems to have taken on a life of its own LOL


----------



## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

radio208 said:


> I know a cell tower was mentioned...How about an high power AM tower near by (50 KW)? On another site, engineers had to apply an inductor/ capacitors install because the chain-link fence became energized...enough to sting you..


Now you have said something that makes me say AHA !! I knew that sooner or later somebody would give me an answer that made sense to me. If engineers have gone to the trouble to fix something, then they believe it is real. Yes there would be a capacitive effect because the roof was not grounded anywhere, only way it can charge up !! Yes there was a new cell tower about a 1/4 mile away, just so happened that you could stand near the house in the front yard and see one antenna pointing directly at the house. tell me some more if you have any more info about your incident.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

one more thing, in this area we dont normally bond any piping at all, just the main panel neutral, GEC, and 8'x5/8" rod


----------



## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

WannabeTesla said:


> I think this is our solution to the energy situation. Here you are with free power and you want to stop it?
> 
> Early in my resi experience I had a call where the neutral was bad. I didn't recognize it immediately because my V readings looked good all the way around. It manifested in the cable tv conductors. When the third tech came out to make the third repair, he recognized that no, these coax cables should not, in fact, be repeatedly melting. After wishing i had a megger, doing the work the hard way, and recognizing the symptoms, i called it in. The compromised neutral was acting like a capacitor. Since then I've re- adopted my first troubleshooting lesson- don't rule it out until you properly rule it out. Bad/ intermittently bad conductor, coupled with "excellent" cable/ internet tech grounding/bonding practices could show up anywhere.
> 
> ...


supposedly .... tesla had a working, no wires, radiated power scheme


----------



## WannabeTesla (Feb 24, 2020)

Almost Retired said:


> supposedly .... tesla had a working, no wires, radiated power scheme


Colorado Springs. He was the also the first to document sounds from outer space. He was laughed to shame but now over a hundred years later we still haven't improved on his system of transmission and he was right about radio control and the sounds from space. 
Too bad his labs repeatedly caught fire mysteriously in the middle of the night. See- now you've gone and gotten me started... heh heh!


----------



## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

kb1jb1 said:


> Did I make the 100th poster?
> If so do I win anything?


I think its customary for 100th poster to go fix problem for free?


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

readydave8 said:


> I think its customary for 100th poster to go fix problem for free?


Or buy beers for all !!!!!


----------



## Bluenose for rent (Nov 6, 2020)

gpop said:


> You missed the part that describes the shock. Remove the ladder and you remove the problem. (shock is when you bridge the gap between the aluminum ladder and roof)
> 
> Adding a easier path to reduce the 5-10 ma of current required to be perceivable works which is why adding a temp ground rod and jumper seemed to fix the problem.(voltage takes all paths amps take the path of least resistance) Ma would not be something you could measure with a standard amp clamp so there's no surprise nothing was measured. If the difference had been measured in amps there probably would have been a pile of body's where the roofers had been poked and fell of the ladder in the first place.


So he’s got a bad neutral connection somewhere. And the grounding electrode and conductor is Similar in resistance to a ladder placed against the metal roof, which touches the steel service mast.


----------



## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

kb1jb1 said:


> Or buy beers for all !!!!!


kb1jb1 for POTUS! He's got my vote with that platform.


----------



## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

Almost Retired said:


> Now you have said something that makes me say AHA !! I knew that sooner or later somebody would give me an answer that made sense to me. If engineers have gone to the trouble to fix something, then they believe it is real. Yes there would be a capacitive effect because the roof was not grounded anywhere, only way it can charge up !! Yes there was a new cell tower about a 1/4 mile away, just so happened that you could stand near the house in the front yard and see one antenna pointing directly at the house. tell me some more if you have any more info about your incident.





radio208 said:


> I know a cell tower was mentioned...How about an high power AM tower near by (50 KW)? On another site, engineers had to apply an inductor/ capacitors install because the chain-link fence became energized...enough to sting you..


Bump for every one .... I am taking this one for the correct answer


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

Almost Retired said:


> Bump for every one .... I am taking this one for the correct answer



Can we stick a fork in it and call it done ?


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

Almost Retired said:


> Can we stick a fork in it and call it done ?


the end of this opus magnum ?


----------



## HertzHound (Jan 22, 2019)

It would have been helpful if one of the roofers could have used the left hand rule while he held the ladder. This way we could tell if the current was coming or going. Maybe we could count the chatter of his teeth to see what the frequency was.


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## Quickservice (Apr 23, 2020)

460 Delta said:


> Did you physically go into the attic and check for romex stapled to the rafters that was compromised?


Couldn't be that if he pulled the meter.


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## Quickservice (Apr 23, 2020)

@Almost Retired, you wouldn't believe how many threads have been on ET where a mystery like this is never resolved, or if they were the OP never bothered to tell us. If by some miracle you find the problem be sure to let us know.


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

Quickservice said:


> Couldn't be that if he pulled the meter.


See post 21.


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

460 Delta said:


> See post 21.


Possible but improbable.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

Almost Retired said:


> Bump for every one .... I am taking this one for the correct answer



Bump


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

> radio208 said:
> I know a cell tower was mentioned...How about an high power AM tower near by (50 KW)? On another site, engineers had to apply an inductor/ capacitors install because the chain-link fence became energized...enough to sting you..





> Almost Retired said:
> Now you have said something that makes me say AHA !! I knew that sooner or later somebody would give me an answer that made sense to me. If engineers have gone to the trouble to fix something, then they believe it is real. Yes there would be a capacitive effect because the roof was not grounded anywhere, only way it can charge up !! Yes there was a new cell tower about a 1/4 mile away, just so happened that you could stand near the house in the front yard and see one antenna pointing directly at the house. tell me some more if you have any more info about your incident.



Bump for every one .... I am taking this one for the correct answer


----------



## Quickservice (Apr 23, 2020)

460 Delta said:


> See post 21.


Well.... I have not encountered that in a long long time in our area, but I certainly saw it a lot in Venezuela.


----------



## batwing44 (Feb 2, 2010)

oops wrong forum


----------



## DesertDawg (Jun 6, 2013)

Almost Retired said:


> To begin with, this happened several years ago. The house in question is a 45 min. drive away. So no im not going back and what info i give in this post is all i have.
> 
> HO calls and says Roofer says they are getting shocked between the new tin roof they are installing and the earth. First thought, nails/screws are too long. I call the roofer and have a friendly conversation (i purposely kept it that way, i want him on my side). Meanwhile i find it hard to believe.
> 
> ...


----------



## DesertDawg (Jun 6, 2013)

Almost Retired said:


> To begin with, this happened several years ago. The house in question is a 45 min. drive away. So no im not going back and what info i give in this post is all i have.
> 
> HO calls and says Roofer says they are getting shocked between the new tin roof they are installing and the earth. First thought, nails/screws are too long. I call the roofer and have a friendly conversation (i purposely kept it that way, i want him on my side). Meanwhile i find it hard to believe.
> 
> ...





Almost Retired said:


> To begin with, this happened several years ago. The house in question is a 45 min. drive away. So no im not going back and what info i give in this post is all i have.
> 
> HO calls and says Roofer says they are getting shocked between the new tin roof they are installing and the earth. First thought, nails/screws are too long. I call the roofer and have a friendly conversation (i purposely kept it that way, i want him on my side). Meanwhile i find it hard to believe.
> 
> ...



Okay, to be fair, it's been a while since I've been working as a spark arrestor, and I don't have any recollection of the actual voltage reading, and I don't know what phone systems run on (enough disclaimers?), but I did have a situation with "outdoor rated " phone wire on a metal roof. Here is the high altitude southwest, the sun is brutal on even sunlight rated insulative jackets. That white "outdoor rated" phone wire from HD lasts maybe 2 years on roofs. Any chance you are looking at a phone land line issue? At least it is still energized when you power down the service.


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## Harry76 (Sep 17, 2019)

460 Delta said:


> Just because you pulled the meter doesn’t mean that you killed all the power to the house. Unmetered taps above the meter can and do exist…


I found a case of this several years ago during a home renovation, the original service was overhead and passed through the eve of the house, someone had cut the pipe and spliced into the wires inside the eve before the meter base, they had a fuse box box in the attic that ran part of the home so it was never metered, you couldn't tell it from the outside.
From the looks of the wire and equipment I would estimate it was done in the 1950s so someone had free electric for many years.


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## HUNKY (Aug 16, 2017)

sounds similar to house I had long long time ago. result was voltage came in from neighbor through plumbing cause everything was not bonded well enough. My drain was grounded but the service ground was not bonded. I was getting voltage through incoming water supply so got bit from fawcet to drain. bonding all parts solved it.


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## HertzHound (Jan 22, 2019)

I had one somewhat similar. Power wasn’t coming in from neighbors, but the house was poorly grounded. They were getting a tingle off the plumbing fixtures. I think I measured 120v from faucet to counter receptacle ground. There was a BX running across the attic touching the foil insulation that was heating up the copper stack. I was getting power on the foil. 

I don’t remember all the steps I took to find it, but I had the house ripped apart, saving chandeliers for last. I might have even gone through the lingerie drawer to find the problem. Finally I found it in an old pull chain metal closet light. The pull chain was still working, but the chain rubbed through and was touching the contacts. The circuit lost its ground and the armor was hot.


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

HertzHound said:


> I had one somewhat similar. Power wasn’t coming in from neighbors, but the house was poorly grounded. They were getting a tingle off the plumbing fixtures. I think I measured 120v from faucet to counter receptacle ground. There was a BX running across the attic touching the foil insulation that was heating up the copper stack. I was getting power on the foil.
> 
> I don’t remember all the steps I took to find it, but I had the house ripped apart, saving chandeliers for last. I might have even gone through the lingerie drawer to find the problem. Finally I found it in an old pull chain metal closet light. The pull chain was still working, but the chain rubbed through and was touching the contacts. The circuit lost its ground and the armor was hot.


That's some fine trouble finding. Impressive!


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## TheNorm (Jan 3, 2011)

Almost Retired said:


> To begin with, this happened several years ago. The house in question is a 45 min. drive away. So no im not going back and what info i give in this post is all i have.
> 
> HO calls and says Roofer says they are getting shocked between the new tin roof they are installing and the earth. First thought, nails/screws are too long. I call the roofer and have a friendly conversation (i purposely kept it that way, i want him on my side). Meanwhile i find it hard to believe.
> 
> ...


Speaking of several years ago my service was from 82-91. But...I have seen your problem. Invariably it went back to the power company. A problem on the pole. "Loose neutral' we used to call it. I'd be more specific if I knew any more. We'd get in touch with them, they'd come out and do whatever they did and bingo. Fixed. Well, there was the time the whole mobile home was hot. That was due to a nick under the ground. That required replacing the wire after much diggings. Didn't care much for that with a matick and shovel. When you do all you can on the home side, check grounding and all, and you did (taking into consideration that some ground grounds better than other ground, hence a crummy house ground), the next step is to call. Your solution was ingenious btw! But as someone mentioned, might have been better to leave that ground in place.


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## TheNorm (Jan 3, 2011)

HertzHound said:


> I don’t remember all the steps I took to find it, but I had the house ripped apart, saving chandeliers for last. I might have even gone through the lingerie drawer to find the problem. Finally I found it in an old pull chain metal closet light. The pull chain was still working, but the chain rubbed through and was touching the contacts. The circuit lost its ground and the armor was hot.


Back when I was doing electrical I noticed that there were two basic strains of electrician. There were the ones that looked super spiffy...I mean, looked good. Good looking young men. (Not saying I was ugly back when), talked great, looked the part...but when push came to shove all they knew was to hook wire A into lug B. And that is fine. That's how America's electrical infrastructure was built. But when troubleshooting time came that's when we'd get the call. That's the other bunch, the troubleshooters. Reading your piece reminded me of that. Heh heh. Chasing dead wires and spooky grounds is when the A team really shines. Solving the mystery is what I loved best. Of course, my father was 50x better at it. But I warn't bad. I know when you finally ran it to ground you were tickled.


----------



## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

TheNorm said:


> but when push came to shove all they knew was to hook wire A into lug B.


I call those guys "dot connectors". That's all they're good at.


----------



## Malywr (Jan 23, 2018)

kb1jb1 said:


> Combination of wind on the roof and being on a scissor lift I assume static charges built up. We either tied a piece of copper wire to the lift to drag on the ground or we clipped a piece of wire to the bar joist as we went. Getting hit with a static shock 20 feet in the air is not fun.
> Has anybody else ran into this?


Yes 
very bad experience


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## MikeWhitfield (Aug 1, 2011)

TheNorm said:


> Back when I was doing electrical I noticed that there were two basic strains of electrician. There were the ones that looked super spiffy...I mean, looked good. Good looking young men. (Not saying I was ugly back when), talked great, looked the part...but when push came to shove all they knew was to hook wire A into lug B. And that is fine. That's how America's electrical infrastructure was built. But when troubleshooting time came that's when we'd get the call. That's the other bunch, the troubleshooters. Reading your piece reminded me of that. Heh heh. Chasing dead wires and spooky grounds is when the A team really shines. Solving the mystery is what I loved best. Of course, my father was 50x better at it. But I warn't bad. I know when you finally ran it to ground you were tickled.


When I get called in (engineering company) on a really weird electrical problem on one of our construction jobs, I immediately assemble as many old electricians as possible, because chances are excellent that one of them either suspects the answer, remembers something similar, or will volunteer something that jogs someone else's memory. Sometimes all it takes is asking. If I get a call for a really weird electrical problem on something not under construction, I recommend a large electrical contractor with a lot of smart old electricians. Because I'd rather be the guy who steers them to the guy who fixes the problem than the guy they paid to beat his head against the wall, as entertaining as that might be.


----------



## TheNorm (Jan 3, 2011)

joe-nwt said:


> I call those guys "dot connectors". That's all they're good at.


Glad to see I wasn't the only one that noticed. One time we got a call to check out a brand new gas furnace in a mobile home that wouldn't light. The owner had someone out to replace the electric furnace with gas. It was a magnificent installation job, hole through the roof, the works. The wiring in the fuse box was as neat as I had ever seen. I marveled at the straight lines, sharp 90 degree angles, etc. Same at the furnace end. Just excellent. After I corrected the wiring and replaced the transformer it worked like a charm. The installer had 240 running to the 110 transformer. BTW, I just remembered...I used to call 'em 'tool men'. Looking good with those shiny new tools.


----------



## TheNorm (Jan 3, 2011)

MikeWhitfield said:


> When I get called in (engineering company) on a really weird electrical problem on one of our construction jobs, I immediately assemble as many old electricians as possible


Lucky for me that my father was the old electrician. Used to say that he could fix anything from a toaster to a battleship, and I wasn't kidding. He played electricity like Stradivarius played his violin. Wasn't much of a teacher, I learned by watching, but there was no smarter. None, zero, zip, nada. One day before I went to work for him they got a call. A diesel engine was stuck in a crossing. Wouldn't crank. Well, actually the motor ran but wasn't sending any voltage to the wheels. Ha. Well, he fixed it.His trademark was the pair of Klein pliars with the red handles he carried around in his back pocket. I used to tell the customers, 'entertainment no extra charge' because he would do whatever it took to just piss me off in front of the customer which would cause serious words. (His old customers worshiped him. Many times they'd tell me stories.) Dadgum I hated that! But when he had his stroke and the biz devolved to me, ahhhh.... just wasn't fun any more. That's why I got out in '91.


----------



## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

Harry76 said:


> I found a case of this several years ago during a home renovation, the original service was overhead and passed through the eve of the house, someone had cut the pipe and spliced into the wires inside the eve before the meter base, they had a fuse box box in the attic that ran part of the home so it was never metered, you couldn't tell it from the outside.
> From the looks of the wire and equipment I would estimate it was done in the 1950s so someone had free electric for many years.


the way we do roof jacks here, the drop is attached to the pipe above the roof. If the pipe were cut, it would pull out/over off the roof. but yeah, if they had managed to anchor it properly, that would be wild. I cant swear this wasnt the case, i never checked the house for power after i pulled the meter. but a clamp meter did not show any current to ground on a personally installed jumper to a new g.rod


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## 5280420 (Oct 10, 2018)

460 Delta said:


> Did you physically go into the attic and check for romex stapled to the rafters that was compromised?


With the meter pulled??


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

5280420 said:


> With the meter pulled??


read the whole thread. you arent the first to ask that


----------



## MikeWhitfield (Aug 1, 2011)

Maybe it's that new 5G Tesla Romex that's going to free us all from the tyranny of the grid. 

I know that logically, any time varying electric field is going to induce a voltage across any conductor, and induce a current through that conductor if it can be connected into a loop (in this case, by a hapless roofer serving as a resister in series), but it's scary to think the field is so strong as to induce a voltage with enough bite that one can feel. Setting aside the electrical considerations, I'd think that there would be health consequences from living in such a strong field. Although maybe it functions like static electricity, which can certainly sting from voltage arc but has no substantial power storage. Maybe the roof is broad enough to induce a moderately high voltage but with no real power.


----------



## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

MikeWhitfield said:


> Maybe it's that new 5G Tesla Romex that's going to free us all from the tyranny of the grid.
> 
> I know that logically, any time varying electric field is going to induce a voltage across any conductor, and induce a current through that conductor if it can be connected into a loop (in this case, by a hapless roofer serving as a resister in series), but it's scary to think the field is so strong as to induce a voltage with enough bite that one can feel. Setting aside the electrical considerations, I'd think that there would be health consequences from living in such a strong field. Although maybe it functions like static electricity, which can certainly sting from voltage arc but has no substantial power storage. Maybe the roof is broad enough to induce a moderately high voltage but with no real power.


LMAOOO @tesla romex

But yes I agree, it is scary. From the measurements I took it does seem to be more like a capacitive discharge. However I measured 60V AC to earth and that doesnt seem right to be AC if it is a static charge. with my southwire ampclamp i could not get even tenths of current to show on a temp jumper to a g.rod driven into the edge of the nearby lake.

As for the health consequences, if you can get a radio, tv, or cell phone signal where you are standing there is hf radiation present. but no it is not that high.

The ho uses it for a vacay lake home, part time occupancy. Hopefully the tin roof is actually shielding them from the radiation. It is a large house with a lot of roof.

The last thing i told them was; it may be the cell phone tower but i cant prove it, you still have a problem.

see post #94 on page 5, I took this post to mean i diagnosed it correctly. That is some comfort i guess, but it just reinforces the fact of how much radiation we are exposed to every day of our lives, and they are building towers as fast as they can.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

I don't suppose you thought to measure frequency. That would rule out the cell tower pretty quickly.


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## knfuller13 (Oct 1, 2021)

Maybe you should cut the service at the bugs then test and re bug the drop. But leaving it is dangerous as previously posted and if in wet conditions it will be amplified from the minerals in the water.


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## WannabeTesla (Feb 24, 2020)

Still chasing the radiation theory? I think that if that were the case, people would already be using it to charge batteries and such. I still say it's a bad neutral somewhere and it's manifesting through the cable coax or something. Don't go back to that house though because i saw this same topic on "MulderandScullytalk.com" but when i tried to post, i got 13 snarky comments then the moderator closed my thread...


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## 5280420 (Oct 10, 2018)

Almost Retired said:


> read the whole thread. you arent the first to ask that


Sorry, my reply was for the person that asked if you’d checked the attic. I did read the post and several replies. I thought it was commendable the lengths you went to to determine the cause. Sometimes electricity just works in mysterious ways. lol


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Municipal water and the neighbor had an open neutral


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

5280420 said:


> Sorry, my reply was for the person that asked if you’d checked the attic. I did read the post and several replies. I thought it was commendable the lengths you went to to determine the cause. Sometimes electricity just works in mysterious ways. lol


 Thank you, most if not nearly all, did not read the entire thread before asking the same old questions. My bad for thinking you didnt. I see now what you were saying.

It was the second time I had voltage on a metal roof, and I did learn some things from the first time.

I had checked everything that every one had suggested (other than cut the service loose, I was satisfied that wouldnt help). I did everything that myself and another competent electrician could think of. I did my best and left the HO with "you still have a problem". I did not tell them they were safe, or that I had fixed it.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

McClary’s Electrical said:


> Municipal water and the neighbor had an open neutral





McClary’s Electrical said:


> Municipal water and the neighbor had an open neutral


No soup for you. Read the entire thread before making a suggestion please


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

Almost Retired said:


> No soup for you. Read the entire thread before making a suggestion please


*It's 152 posts!*


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## WannabeTesla (Feb 24, 2020)

154


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

No way to prove what it was now and as "Almost retired" has decided that he can get 60 vac from a radio tower on 1600 sq feet of roofing there is not much more to be said. 

Using this logic i can wear a foil hat and be my own person generator. Be handy working on a car at night just put on my foil hat and bite down on a light bulb.


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## WannabeTesla (Feb 24, 2020)

gpop said:


> Using this logic i can wear a foil hat and be my own person generator. Be handy working on a car at night just put on my foil hat and bite down on a light bulb.


Well, an LED, at least...


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

MikeFL said:


> *It's 152 posts!*


so close it already , please


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

I was poking your ribs.

The thread engages the members and IIRC that's what having a site like this is all about.
Interesting dialogue for sure.


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## MikeWhitfield (Aug 1, 2011)

gpop said:


> No way to prove what it was now and as "Almost retired" has decided that he can get 60 vac from a radio tower on 1600 sq feet of roofing there is not much more to be said.
> 
> Using this logic i can wear a foil hat and be my own person generator. Be handy working on a car at night just put on my foil hat and bite down on a light bulb.


"Put on my tin foil hat" implies that you don't always wear it. Thus everything you post obviously comes straight from the reptilians and is part of their vast underground conspiracy to take over our planet and seize our women by turning the squirrels against us.


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## WannabeTesla (Feb 24, 2020)

MikeWhitfield said:


> "Put on my tin foil hat" implies that you don't always wear it. Thus everything you post obviously comes straight from the reptilians and is part of their vast underground conspiracy to take over our planet and seize our women by turning the squirrels against us.


I'd have caught that if i hadn't taken off my aluminium foil hat. Are people still using tin foil? How 1950s...


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## MikeWhitfield (Aug 1, 2011)

WannabeTesla said:


> I'd have caught that if i hadn't taken off my aluminium foil hat. Are people still using tin foil? How 1950s...


That's what they WANT you to do dude. Only real tin foil blocks ALL their radio waves.


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

Years ago i was working with a sparky that i highly respected when he ask me this question.

"We were under a high voltage lines and we tried the trick with a florescent bulb you was talking about. It would glow but it was dim so i got my meter and put one probe in the ground and held the other over my head and the meter read around 120. So i got the drill out of the truck and twisted wire around the plug and put one wire in the ground and held the other wire over my head but the drill would not run."................."why is that"....

Im like seriously dude


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Voltage but very little to no amperage.?


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

kb1jb1 said:


> Voltage but very little to no amperage.?


volts but no watts aka static


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

thoa said:


> How?


It is a combination of being within the magnetic field created by the very high voltage lines, and how an old school florescent bulb works
which is a tube filled with a gas that will glow when exposed to enough voltage

The drill did not work because there is no available amps in the field, only volts


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Installing the wire and ground rod removed the voltage potential between roof and ground. 
Roof had no connections back to neutral or wire would not have been necessary. 
If roof was touching a hot, induced voltage would not be present. It would drain through a lamp or other load. 
Roof had to be isolated from both hot and neutral (ground). 
If roof is isolated, voltage has to be induced. 
Unless the POTS had energized the roof.


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

Any current available on the voltage will be microamperes at best. Just enough to tickle a person and enough to register a volt meter, but not enough to drive a load or harm an animal.


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

MikeFL said:


> Any current available on the voltage will be microamperes at best. Just enough to tickle a person and enough to register a volt meter, but not enough to drive a load or harm an animal.


You said it plain and simple.


----------



## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

One time we craned an old oil-filled 115Kv breaker off a pad in a live sub to assemble an SF6 in it's place. Couldn't take it all the way out in one go so it got placed on a couple of 8x8 timbers temporarily.

Next day we're just finishing up and I was short a ground lug due to the weird grounding system in place. So I walked up to the old breaker to see if there might be a lug I could salvage. There was and I got down one one knee to see if I could remove it. Pretty soon I can feel something on the hand holding the wrench and my knee that makes me not want to touch it.. Grabbed a voltmeter and measured to a real ground, not my knee: 800+ volts. 

Maybe no current but still unpleasant.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Can we get this thread up to 200?


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

MikeFL said:


> Any current available on the voltage will be microamperes at best. Just enough to tickle a person and enough to register a volt meter, but not enough to drive a load or harm an animal.


It will stop cattle from drinking at a waterer.


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## WannabeTesla (Feb 24, 2020)

backstay said:


> It will stop cattle from drinking at a waterer.


They'll mate as before though. 

I propose we all chip in $0.05 usd and buy Almost Retired a shirt with a clock on it that's reading 4:59


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## Quickservice (Apr 23, 2020)

Almost Retired said:


> To begin with, this happened several years ago. The house in question is a 45 min. drive away. So no im not going back and what info i give in this post is all i have.
> 
> HO calls and says Roofer says they are getting shocked between the new tin roof they are installing and the earth. First thought, nails/screws are too long. I call the roofer and have a friendly conversation (i purposely kept it that way, i want him on my side). Meanwhile i find it hard to believe.
> 
> Go to the site, get the vom and an aluminum ladder (on purpose). Meter shows about 60VAC from roof to ladder. Again I find that hard to believe, so i put my sweaty arm on the edge of the roof and the ladder, sure enough it stings a little. Now im on the hunt, i did my best to check every penetration of the roof in some way.


Wow! Have you noticed how many views this thread has received? Not withstanding the multiple directions the conversatons took! A "Hot Tin Roof" will do that I guess.


----------



## thoa (Oct 20, 2021)

Almost Retired said:


> It is a combination of being within the magnetic field created by the very high voltage lines, and how an old school florescent bulb works
> which is a tube filled with a gas that will glow when exposed to enough voltage
> 
> The drill did not work because there is no available amps in the field, only volts


Alright. Thanks


----------



## Leehaefele (Sep 17, 2015)

Almost Retired said:


> To begin with, this happened several years ago. The house in question is a 45 min. drive away. So no im not going back and what info i give in this post is all i have.
> 
> HO calls and says Roofer says they are getting shocked between the new tin roof they are installing and the earth. First thought, nails/screws are too long. I call the roofer and have a friendly conversation (i purposely kept it that way, i want him on my side). Meanwhile i find it hard to believe.
> 
> ...


If a ground rod quieted the roof, then there is not much current available. Could this be inductive pickup from near power lines? This is a common problem with stringing insulated overhead communications lines, too hot to touch until terminated, then no problem at all.


----------



## WannabeTesla (Feb 24, 2020)

Welp, here we go....


----------



## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Is this the dude with the live noodle?! Lol


----------



## WannabeTesla (Feb 24, 2020)

Hey! @Almost Retired 
Fire up your story pipe!


----------



## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

WannabeTesla said:


> Hey! @Almost Retired
> Fire up your story pipe!


YAY STORYTIME


----------



## WannabeTesla (Feb 24, 2020)

We're going straight to 200 on this one!


----------



## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

WannabeTesla said:


> We're going straight to 200 on this one!


1000 or bust


----------



## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

WannabeTesla said:


> We're going straight to 200 on this one!


Ok...here's my contribution...#182


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

Leehaefele said:


> If a ground rod quieted the roof, then there is not much current available. Could this be inductive pickup from near power lines? This is a common problem with stringing insulated overhead communications lines, too hot to touch until terminated, then no problem at all.


here is the link to the reply that i am calling the correct answer. I have not gone back to the house, so i dont actually know








Odd Problem - Voltage on Metal Roof


As to current flowing through the ground, it happens. You can probe it out to find the source. Connect a lead to a known location with voltage present (roof), connect the other lead to a probe you walk around the yard looking for changes. If it's highest at the building, the problem is at the...




www.electriciantalk.com





post #94 on that page


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

Almost Retired said:


> here is the link to the reply that i am calling the correct answer. I have not gone back to the house, so i dont actually know
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Should have measured frequency. You would have slept better since.

Odd Problem - Voltage on Metal Roof

The truth is out there......


----------



## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

joe-nwt said:


> Should have measured frequency. You would have slept better since.
> 
> Odd Problem - Voltage on Metal Roof
> 
> The truth is out there......


since i thought it was the cell tower,, i didnt expect my meter to read that high.
it never bothered my sleeping


----------



## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

Almost Retired said:


> since i thought it was the cell tower,,* i didnt expect my meter to read that high.*
> it never bothered my sleeping


You didn't have to. All you needed to see was something other than 60Hz.


----------



## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

joe-nwt said:


> You didn't have to. All you needed to see was something other than 60Hz.


good point


----------



## WannabeTesla (Feb 24, 2020)

joe-nwt said:


> You didn't have to. All you needed to see was something other than 60Hz.


Good call.


----------



## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

well the long awaited day has come
i am going back to that house on thursday for an unrelated problem

@joe-nwt i will check for hertz

any body else have a request that i check something ?


----------



## MotoGP1199 (Aug 11, 2014)

Almost Retired said:


> well the long awaited day has come
> i am going back to that house on thursday for an unrelated problem
> 
> @joe-nwt i will check for hertz
> ...


Like @gpop had mentioned. Check telephone, cable, etc. That voltage you had on the roof is in their range.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

MotoGP1199 said:


> Like gpop had mentioned. Check telephone, cable, etc. That voltage you had on the roof is in their range.


making notes now


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

MotoGP1199 said:


> Like gpop had mentioned. Check telephone, cable, etc. That voltage you had on the roof is in their range.


where on both of those systems should i connect the volt meter ? and should i check for amps as well ?


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## MotoGP1199 (Aug 11, 2014)

Almost Retired said:


> where on both of those systems should i connect the volt meter ? and should i check for amps as well ?


Its been many years since I had to deal with this. Both systems "should" be bonded at the inter system bonding terminal. Most of the time they were not on older houses. On the house I had an issue with I simply disconnected the underground feeders from the phone and cable where they came into the house and once I did that my stray voltage issues disappeared. I found something like 50v between the coax cable metal connector (underground feed) and my GEC. I bonded the house side of the coax system and left the main coax feed disconnected. I had them call charter and they took care of it. :Maybe @gpop can give more detailed information.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

im thinking i should check across the bonding wire looking for voltage and amps?


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Look for amps and keep in mind disconnecting grounds in this kind of situation can be dangerous, you might be working hot, you could wind up with unexpected voltage hand to hand


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

agreed. it can be surprising
one hand in pocket rule !!


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

well im back from that house. No one was home, so i could not pull the meter or turn off the main Kudos to @joe-nwt for making me check Hz.
They have installed their own jumper to the roof at the service, split bolted onto the GEC. the service is overhead, and does not go over the roof
They have 2 gas furnaces that have metal roofjacks
under ground nat. gas service, under ground phone service , satellite cable buried to the house - so no commercial cable company

here are the testing results
jumper connected = 60Hz , 0amps on the GEC and to the dirt near it
jumper disconnected = 60Hz to GEC and the dirt near it , 3V to GEC and the dirt near it
jumper disconnected and measuring from the GEC and to the dirt near it = 60Hz , 0V , 0A
primary junction box of the phone service to the house was not interior accessible, but did show 0A on the incoming service line

I also checked Hz on the roof at the original place i checked it years ago. = 60Hz
this point is caddy cornered from the service drop thru a 2 car garage and utility room approx 60ft straight line shot

I do not suspect the gas line because the units have EGC's that measure zero ohms to the neutral and are properly bonded in the units
That should make it go straight to the Neu at the main panel, not the roof.
I checked that thoroughly , last time i was there.

my conclusion is that it is coming from a neighbor's phone line. but i dont understand how it would get to the roof.
unless the phone lines have made a connection to some portion of the HVAC under the house, not sure what, because of existing grounding in the inside units.

further more the voltage is no longer 60VAC but now 3VAC (maybe the roof jacks are making a better connection now after about 3 years ? )

what do you think?

and some pics


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

I am out of here for the day, work, etc.
back tomorrow


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

What is going on with this picture?


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

joe-nwt said:


> What is going on with this picture?
> View attachment 162616


that is the service. the drop leaves at an angle going away from the house. so the drop is more than 2ft from the eaves
the grey pvc pipe goes to the well from the main panel via the meter base (connected but breaker off)
the GEC is bare copper and behind the pvc


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

Must be the angle that makes the meter base appear so ****-eyed.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

joe-nwt said:


> Must be the angle that makes the meter base appear so ****-eyed.


the meter is mounted normally, vertical and square
the meter is in a corner that is vertical and 90*.
the siding is actually at an angle, all of that adds to the optical illusion


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

joe-nwt said:


> Must be the angle that makes the meter base appear so ****-eyed.


what do you think about the readings @joe-nwt ?
any thoughts ? wild guesses?


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

Well the 60HZ everywhere rules out the cell tower.  

As to the 60HZ itself, I don't think that is an issue and I'll explain why. Depending on the meter you were using, the HZ function can be very sensitive. I know for a fact I can read frequency (at least 60HZ) by simply laying the leads across an energized source, no actual connection. If the current in the electrical is high enough, I take my meter, remove the leads altogether and still read frequency. So the fact that you are reading 60HZ, even on the grounded metal is probably not significant in and of itself.

If your readings of 3V on the roof now are accurate, it would appear that the original 60V you read was induction from some source, and for whatever reason is now not being applied to the metal or the metal itself is more solidly bonded, perhaps as you suggested through the roof jacks or even a humidity change in the wood the roof is fastened to.

It would be interesting to see if anything would change during the heat of summer.

If the 60V was coming from a source, you would have a short. I suppose it could be coming from a defective load, but I feel that's getting to be a bit of a stretch. 

Anyway, that all I got.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

joe-nwt said:


> Well the 60HZ everywhere rules out the cell tower.
> 
> As to the 60HZ itself, I don't think that is an issue and I'll explain why. Depending on the meter you were using, the HZ function can be very sensitive. I know for a fact I can read frequency (at least 60HZ) by simply laying the leads across an energized source, no actual connection. If the current in the electrical is high enough, I take my meter, remove the leads altogether and still read frequency. So the fact that you are reading 60HZ, even on the grounded metal is probably not significant in and of itself.
> 
> ...


I also forgot to say that the 3VAC on the roof and on the opposite side of the garage was with their grounding jumper connected to the GEC
however i am doubtful if they attached it any better than hanging it in a hole in the roof. it was connected at a 2nd story spot above and to the left of the meter
the place where i was measuring the roof was low and easily reached

I finally looked back in my records far enough and found that this took place in aug of 2019
the actual voltage on the roof was NOT 60 but 12VAC and 0VDC. which is still an improvement. same meter by the way.

I agree with you on the Hz reading.
It is a cheap southwire meter. I held the leads up to the face of my own poco meter and got 60Hz, one lead on the GEC and got 60Hz


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## LARMGUY (Aug 22, 2010)

Almost Retired said:


> I also forgot to say that the 3VAC on the roof and on the opposite side of the garage was with their grounding jumper connected to the GEC
> however i am doubtful if they attached it any better than hanging it in a hole in the roof. it was connected at a 2nd story spot above and to the left of the meter
> the place where i was measuring the roof was low and easily reached
> 
> ...


I started the reading of this thread 3 days ago. I did read every reply and suggestion. I have been shocked by a metal roof, a drop in tile ceiling grid, and a 4 inch conduit filled with nothing but low voltage CAT5 and fiber optic.
All of these were reported to the electrcians and all were found and fixed. I applaud you for your thread, your troubleshooting efforts, and your tenacity in solving this. I also love troubleshooting. As a low voltage service technician, (tooting my own horn) I have investigated and fixed hundreds of systems. I loved every minute of it.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

LARMGUY said:


> I started the reading of this thread 3 days ago. I did read every reply and suggestion. I have been shocked by a metal roof, a drop in tile ceiling grid, and a 4 inch conduit filled with nothing but low voltage CAT5 and fiber optic.
> All of these were reported to the electrcians and all were found and fixed. I applaud you for your thread, your troubleshooting efforts, and your tenacity in solving this. I also love troubleshooting. As a low voltage service technician, (tooting my own horn) I have investigated and fixed hundreds of systems. I loved every minute of it.


Thanks , but this is the second time that I didnt find it or fix it


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## WannabeTesla (Feb 24, 2020)

Ah, so why didn't anyone tell me that we were back on this one? 

If I were there, I'd look at continuity and voltage across the lines to neutral. I'm really curious to know those numbers. If I can find my notepad from that day, I'll share it with you. (I've gotten better at keeping stuff since then) But I seem to remember that the numbers were squirrelly and changing as I watched them. It was one of my first resi t/s calls ever and I kept thinking that none of it made sense. Disconnected, all conductor numbers in the house made sense. If I were to find similar symptoms today, I'd start by pulling the meter and measuring right there. I think I was getting fluctuating resistance numbers with the main breaker open. I was sheepish about calling the utility. The next day I called them to see what they'd found and they said it was a bad neutral- no biggie, all in a day's work for them. What I learned from that experience is that the current will look for it's return path through anything else, in this case, the cable tv. 

I'm still not clear on if there are similar symptoms every time.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

WannabeTesla said:


> Ah, so why didn't anyone tell me that we were back on this one?
> 
> If I were there, I'd look at continuity and voltage across the lines to neutral. I'm really curious to know those numbers. If I can find my notepad from that day, I'll share it with you. (I've gotten better at keeping stuff since then) But I seem to remember that the numbers were squirrelly and changing as I watched them. It was one of my first resi t/s calls ever and I kept thinking that none of it made sense. Disconnected, all conductor numbers in the house made sense. If I were to find similar symptoms today, I'd start by pulling the meter and measuring right there. I think I was getting fluctuating resistance numbers with the main breaker open. I was sheepish about calling the utility. The next day I called them to see what they'd found and they said it was a bad neutral- no biggie, all in a day's work for them. What I learned from that experience is that the current will look for it's return path through anything else, in this case, the cable tv.
> 
> I'm still not clear on if there are similar symptoms every time.


i have found and fixed more than 100 lost neutrals. at the meter, in the panel, and in the circuit itself.
at least 50 in the panel or meter, not counting ccts.
in the circuit, you usually find 120V neu to ground, or in the panel unbalanced neu to phase. just like that, its that simple.
if it has gotten really bad and welded so that it doesnt show up right then, i have them activate all 240V appliances.
sometimes that will make it show, sometimes i turn off all 240 breakers and have them turn on some 120V load.
oh and around here they dont bond any piping, so most of the time there is no alternate path for neutral current.

that was not the case on this one. all voltages to the main breaker and after the main breaker were correct. 240V to phase, and 120V to neu each.

now a days im not allowed to cut the seal and pull the meter anymore. 
if i find it bad below the meter, i will walk the line from the weather head back to the txr just to see if i spot it there.
no matter what, i have to tell customer to call poco and have them fix it (free of course)


begin reading at post #189 to catch up on what you missed.


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