# About to join a union



## Next72969 (Dec 9, 2012)

Yes. Whether or not u go to school or learn in the field i dont know but id assume the contractor would have u learning various aspects of the trade. Its inevitable


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## Next72969 (Dec 9, 2012)

Whether u go to school or learn in the field its inevitable ull learn something


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## Next72969 (Dec 9, 2012)

Sorry bout the double post my phone app is acting up it said errorwhen i typed the first post and i shortened my answer second time aroud


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## fiieeldy (Jun 11, 2013)

Thanks I assumed they would teach since it is an apprenticeship & my instructor at job corps was a lazy fat man that would barely teach any of his students.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

I though the ABC was a non-union deal?


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

John Valdes said:


> I though the ABC was a non-union deal?


 It is...
"*Associated Builders and Contractors* (ABC) is a national trade association that advances and defends the principles of the merit shop in the construction industry ..."


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## fiieeldy (Jun 11, 2013)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> It is...
> "*Associated Builders and Contractors* (ABC) is a national trade association that advances and defends the principles of the merit shop in the construction industry ..."


Ok well I'm trying to join something. Apprenticeship program What ever its called...:jester:


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## Bootss (Dec 30, 2011)

fiieeldy said:


> Thanks I assumed they would teach since it is an apprenticeship & my instructor at job corps was a lazy fat man that would barely teach any of his students.


Where was this job corps at? If there's any schooling,JC, locally go to those classes also or move closer to a training center for electrician's.Not sure if New Mexico's training system is statewide or localized.


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

ABC is not looking out for you. It's an association for the contractors, not the workers.

Went through 3 years of their apprenticeship. 2 of the 3 years was a waste of time and money.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

TGGT said:


> ABC is not looking out for you. It's an association for the contractors, not the workers.
> 
> Went through 3 years of their apprenticeship. 2 of the 3 years was a waste of time and money.


I think that varies from area to area, but one thing is for sure working at an ABC contractor would beat warming a bench elsewhere.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

John Valdes said:


> I though the ABC was a non-union deal?


I thought it was a Jackson 5 deal....~CS~


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## fiieeldy (Jun 11, 2013)

TGGT said:


> ABC is not looking out for you. It's an association for the contractors, not the workers.
> 
> Went through 3 years of their apprenticeship. 2 of the 3 years was a waste of time and money.


The ABC program im going to pays for school , they pay me to get trained. Depends on where your attending.


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## fiieeldy (Jun 11, 2013)

brian john said:


> I think that varies from area to area, but one thing is for sure working at an ABC contractor would beat warming a bench elsewhere.


Yes Indeed.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

John Valdes said:


> I though the ABC was a non-union deal?


It's the non-union union :laughing:


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

fiieeldy said:


> I have a scheduled interview for an apprentice @ ABC associates contractors and builders 2 weeks away. The interview is Strictly basic interview questions no bending conduit try outs or anything like that. Theirs not many applicants this round. probly 20 or 30 at the least. My question is will I get taught how to bend and solve formulas more at as an apprentice?


I have never met an ABC apprentice that graduated. ABC drags them on and on as cheap slave labor.


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

big2bird said:


> I have never met an ABC apprentice that graduated. ABC drags them on and on as cheap slave labor.


That's an ironic statement. Isn't that exactly what the ibew has been doing to PE/CE/CW/SH for decades?


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

knowshorts said:


> That's an ironic statement. Isn't that exactly what the ibew has been doing to PE/CE/CW/SH for decades?


Nope. Our local gives night schooling for those classifications, and they can take the test once a year, so I would say no.


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

There's s guy right now working at the building next door. He has been classified as an IJ for 13 years. They will not let him take the IW exam. He's a journeyman according to the state of California yet he is not recognized as one by the union.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

brian john said:


> I think that varies from area to area, but one thing is for sure working at an ABC contractor would beat warming a bench elsewhere.


how many apprentices are warming benches?


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

knowshorts said:


> There's s guy right now working at the building next door. He has been classified as an IJ for 13 years. They will not let him take the IW exam. He's a journeyman according to the state of California yet he is not recognized as one by the union.


There is more to this story, I assure you.


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

360max said:


> how many apprentices are warming benches?


That does not begin till you break out.:laughing:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

big2bird said:


> I have never met an ABC apprentice that graduated. ABC drags them on and on as cheap slave labor.


 
I THINK that must be a local thing, here I know plenty of good electricians that went the ABC Route.

All they have to do after getting so many hours graduate or not is take the local licensing test.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

360max said:


> how many apprentices are warming benches?


 
In all my years of working I know of two locals that had apprentices sitting as there was no work one was near here and that local has now been swallowed up by our local.

If there is no work there is no work.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

erics37 said:


> It's the non-union union :laughing:


It is actually the anti-union. A union requires a collective bargaining - in the ABC the only people at the bargaining table are contractors. I'm sure they have very heartfelt and difficult discussions on what they will be paying their employees.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

knowshorts said:


> There's s guy right now working at the building next door. He has been classified as an IJ for 13 years. They will not let him take the IW exam. He's a journeyman according to the state of California yet he is not recognized as one by the union.


Yeah, there is always that one guy who proves the negative. I call that the Cletis rule. Whatever you want to say about non union anything, I point to Cletis and say - 'Yeah but look at that guy'.

Contractors benefit from workers not getting more money ( getting better classifications ), unions don't. Unions benefit from workers making more money. 

If anyone is holding an employee back, it is a combination of contractor and employee. It happens, I know a couple of guys who are too afraid to leave a particular shop and have stayed a lesser classification beyond their time. ( It happens outside of unions as well I am certain ).


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

I started out in the merit shop. It was a lot less biased. They have a pile of work and are always working and crossing Pickett lines here and there. Taking busses into other entrances at mills. I'm talking big abc contractors. I don't pick on little ma and pa shops.no. I worked for one of the most hated contractors of the Midwest. I learned a lot. Like having little pride in my craftsmanship. Slap it it so we can get paid and send you down the road to the next job. Or. Lay you off if your not willing to travel. Surprised they didn't make me quit so they could get out of giving me unemployment. No. It was great. They had a gain share. That means if they lost money on another job, the one I made them money on paid the bill and management hid it. Abc is a management organization. Ok for them, but not for employees? That sucks. It all worked out. I am greatful for the local I joined. I don't regret or look back on working abc but wish I could have added to my pension years ago.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Therer are hacks on both sides of the line and I worked at a union shop that flew men in across picket lines.

Washington Post strike in the late 70's early 80's


No one side has any higher moral standards than the other. JUST my expierence not saying this is not different in different areas

The advantage of unions is they do off worker protection, fair wages, good bennies, and a retirement that follows you from start to grave a MAJOR, MAJOR item in anyones career.


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

brian john said:


> In all my years of working I know of two locals that had apprentices sitting as there was no work one was near here and that local has now been swallowed up by our local.
> 
> If there is no work there is no work.


 
I can give you a third and fourth local that has apprentices riding the benches. Local 1852 (Cape Breton NS) and Local 625 (Mainland NS) are both in a tough situation right now and we only have about 25% of our apprentices working.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

brian john said:


> Therer are hacks on both sides of the line and I worked at a union shop that flew men in across picket lines.
> 
> Washington Post strike in the late 70's early 80's
> 
> ...


It is not an issue of hackery or moral standards BJ, nor is it an issue of 'sides'.

Unions are collective bargaining units of workers run by those workers.

ABC is all about the contractor. There is no input from the workforce nor is there any true collective bargaining. It is just a new version of the old Company Store mining model.

Personally I am fine with that and commend them for providing for themselves, however, I do find it disingenuous of them to say they are a union.

Their pretense confuses things ( which is helpful to them of course ).

Now if you find that devious and underhanded then perhaps it is a moral issue after all, however I believe most folks here would call that good business practices.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

eejack said:


> It is not an issue of hackery or moral standards BJ, nor is it an issue of 'sides'.
> 
> Unions are collective bargaining units of workers run by those workers.
> 
> ...



I never heard them say they are a union but I do not know a lot about the actual organization.

Saw this the other day on a GC's truck, hedging his bets?


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

brian john said:


> I never heard them say they are a union but I do not know a lot about the actual organization.
> 
> Saw this the other day on a GC's truck, hedging his bets?


There's a wacky lady here living in government subsidized housing with a beat up Dodge Caravan with "Down with the government" stickers on it :laughing:


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## sparky970 (Mar 19, 2008)

chicken steve said:


> I thought it was a Jackson 5 deal....~CS~


It's easy as 1 2 3, cockadoodle Steve


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

I worked for some WECA shops (similar to ABC) and they are in no way doing anything for the employee. There one goal and object is to put the worker into a situation of control.

These two organizations tell the employees how much they are doing for them, and then turn around and donate thousands upo thousands to political organizations designed to eliminate PW projects. Yeah....they are looking out for the interests of the people building this nation.


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

Given the choice the union is the way to go....better money...bennies....pension..I work in a union plant overnight and run a 1 man shop by day....Abc shops crush their guys benefits...sad....my package is top of the mark...Cba is better than Abc..


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## fiieeldy (Jun 11, 2013)

*4 years* of* College* classes and So many *hours* of working *with* *a licensed contractor* 

is all I need to take my *test* for my *Journeyman's* license. *With* or *W/O* a *Union *

*Journeyman* *License = $ Moe Money $*


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Switched said:


> I worked for some WECA shops (similar to ABC) and they are in no way doing anything for the employee. There one goal and object is to put the worker into a situation of control.
> 
> These two organizations tell the employees how much they are doing for them, and then turn around and donate thousands upo thousands to political organizations designed to eliminate PW projects. Yeah....they are looking out for the interests of the people building this nation.


Both organizations are looking out for their members and little else. That’s what associations do you think AARP gives one rat's ass about the future of their non-members.:no::no:

Unions dump big cash into politics as well hoping to sway legislation their way. And they should they are hoping to improve their lot in the overall scheme of things.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

fiieeldy said:


> *4 years* of* College* classes and So many *hours* of working *with* *a licensed contractor*
> 
> is all I need to take my *test* for my *Journeyman's* license. *With* or *W/O* a *Union *
> 
> *Journeyman* *License = $ Moe Money $*


Actually a journeyman license is immaterial for union members. You get nothing more for having one.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

eejack said:


> Actually a journeyman license is immaterial for union members. You get nothing more for having one.


SOME locals; Local 26 for one; use to require a DC License to obtain "A" wages.

I am not sure about this anymore.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

eejack said:


> Actually a journeyman license is immaterial for union members. You get nothing more for having one.


Well except you cannot do electrical work without it in many areas.


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## Hackster (Jun 15, 2013)

brian john said:


> SOME locals; Local 26 for one; use to require a DC License to obtain "A" wages.


Yeah, I was going to say that, but then I remembered that it was eejack...


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Well except you cannot do electrical work without it in many areas.


That's my favorite line to hear out of either side. "You can go work anywhere" yeah, maybe you shouldn't leave out the fact that there are these pesky things called licensing requirements. :laughing:

I heard some joke open shop association peddling the fact you get some DOL journeyman's card or some **** after graduating and could work anywhere you wanted the other day.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Jlarson said:


> That's my favorite line to hear out of either side. "You can go work anywhere" yeah, maybe you shouldn't leave out the fact that there are these pesky things called licensing requirements. :laughing:
> 
> I heard some joke open shop association peddling the fact you get some DOL journeyman's card or some **** after graduating and could work anywhere you wanted the other day.


With certain restricitions.

Around here some local jurisdictions made it almost impossible for out of county and especially out of state EC's to get a license.

To stop this the state took over licensing.


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## xaH (Jun 21, 2013)

eejack said:


> Actually a journeyman license is immaterial for union members. You get nothing more for having one.


Unless you live in New England. All six states have a journeyman's license requirement and you need to keep and maintain all six to travel and work, regardless of union affiliation.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

xaH said:


> Unless you live in New England. All six states have a journeyman's license requirement and you need to keep and maintain all six to travel and work, regardless of union affiliation.


Are the licenses reciprocal between the 6 states?


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## xaH (Jun 21, 2013)

brian john said:


> Are the licenses reciprocal between the 6 states?


Only between Mass. and the three northern New England states. The most heavily populated states (CT, MA, RI) do not reciprocate.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Sure and in many states no 'license' is required, nor is it required to work for a licensed contractor, nor are they required to work on POCO facilities etc. etc. etc.

Additionally, if you are in a union in a state, your local is preparing you for whatever local requirements might exist.

Seriously, a bunch of petty folks on this forum.

The point was, the person I was responding too was making it out like his local license made him more valuable...and my point was the union does not care - you don't make anymore with or without a license.

And for what it is worth, it is so trivial to get a license in 99% of these localities as to make the licensing requirements a formality.

First requirement - proof of work. Easy - any union member has a work history, if they went through a normal apprenticeship then they have 5 years minimum before they can travel.

Second requirement - pay a fee.

When you start getting into contractor's licenses and pulling permits and working on your own, you start getting into difficult, but until then, common worker schtuff is trivial and easily obtained.

I have spent years traveling and have never had any problems with licenses, especially since most locals have support systems set up to deal with it.

Sheesh...:no:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

> The point was, the person I was responding too was making it out like his local license made him more valuable...and my point was the union does not care - you don't make anymore with or without a license.


And your point is wrong in some localities. Not petty a REAL FACT.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

brian john said:


> And your point is wrong in some localities. Not petty a REAL FACT.


No, petty. 

Any union person working in a locality would be supported by the union to get any credentials required, ergo if you require some local license to work in DC, 26 will help you get it.

If you have 'extra' licensing you don't get 'extra' money.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

eejack said:


> No, petty.
> 
> Any union person working in a locality would be supported by the union to get any credentials required, ergo if you require some local license to work in DC, 26 will help you get it.
> 
> If you have 'extra' licensing you don't get 'extra' money.


Without the states j-man license *they make nothing.*

So tell us again how it has no value. 

Jesus sometimes you act like a true idiot. :laughing:


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## Hackster (Jun 15, 2013)

eejack said:


> The point was, the person I was responding too was making it out like his local license made him more valuable...and my point was the union does not care - you don't make anymore with or without a license.


THe license in many, many places DOES in fact make a man more valuable because he can't work as a journeyman without it.


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## gaffer1 (Jun 20, 2013)

BBQ said:


> Without the states j-man license *they make nothing.*
> 
> So tell us again how it has no value.
> 
> Jesus sometimes you act like a true idiot. :laughing:


 BBQ he cannot be a "true" idiot unless he is a member of the Idiots union so he would be a rat" idiot:laughing:


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## gaffer1 (Jun 20, 2013)

Hackster said:


> THe license in many, many places DOES in fact make a man more valuable because he can't work as a journeyman without it.


 Back in the days before state licensing Locals often had wink and nod agreements with inspectors and licenses for municipalities were easy to get or never checked. Unless of course it was a non union contractor they wanted to have checked.


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

BBQ said:


> Without the states j-man license *they make nothing.*
> 
> So tell us again how it has no value.
> 
> Jesus sometimes you act like a true idiot. :laughing:


I let my state license expire 6 years ago, and I still work and make $$$ legally.:laughing:


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## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

big2bird said:


> I let my state license expire 6 years ago, and I still work and make $$$ legally.:laughing:


That may work fine for you where you live.

The point BBQ is making is that in many areas, the New England states for example, you have to be licensed by the state in order to work as an electrician. Union or non, no exceptions. The state could care less how long you've been in the union. If you haven't passed the state exam, you aren't a journeyman.


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

EBFD6 said:


> That may work fine for you where you live.
> 
> The point BBQ is making is that in many areas, the New England states for example, you have to be licensed by the state in order to work as an electrician. Union or non, no exceptions. The state could care less how long you've been in the union. If you haven't passed the state exam, you aren't a journeyman.


I know what his point is.


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

big2bird said:


> I let my state license expire 6 years ago, and I still work and make $$$ legally.:laughing:


You can't really make a statement like that without releasing all the facts. You work for Freeman, a convention company, with no CA contractors license requirement, therefor no C10 requirement, therefor no licensed journeyman requirement.

Locals look the other way when it comes to convention companies, especially in Anaheim. Conventions bring in a crapload of dues money for the local.


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

knowshorts said:


> You can't really make a statement like that without releasing all the facts. You work for Freeman, a convention company, with no CA contractors license requirement, therefor no C10 requirement, therefor no licensed journeyman requirement.
> 
> Locals look the other way when it comes to convention companies, especially in Anaheim. Conventions bring in a crapload of dues money for the local.


Your close. I have never, and will never work at Freeman.:laughing:
Trade show electricians are exempt from the State license requirement.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

big2bird said:


> Your close. I have never, and will never work at Freeman.:laughing:
> Trade show electricians are exempt from the State license requirement.


And you don't have a license

In my eyes you are not even an electrician. :whistling2::laughing:


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

BBQ said:


> And you don't have a license
> 
> In my eyes you are not even an electrician. :whistling2::laughing:


If you saw how we sometimes jamb stuff in, in the name of temporary, I'd say you are correct.:laughing:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

big2bird said:


> If you saw how we sometimes jamb stuff in, in the name of temporary, I'd say you are correct.:laughing:


:thumbup:

Awesome. :laughing:

We temp stuff in too, 'nuff said.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

big2bird said:


> If you saw how we sometimes jamb stuff in, in the name of temporary, I'd say you are correct.:laughing:


When we do emergency repairs after blow ups, a common discussion is, man that looks strange. *Well it is only temporary*.


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

Practical experience, and past practice, along with common sense dictates the means and methods. I look for physical and elelctrical protection, the safety of the public is foremost, with the appearance a close second.
I swear people can trip on a paper clip.:laughing:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

big2bird said:


> I swear people can trip on a paper clip.:laughing:


:laughing:

True enough.


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

As a side note, I work tonight tearing out the Antiques Road Show. I have been a fan for years, and installing the show power, and getting to see all the usual personalities like the Keno brothers was a hoot.:thumbsup:


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

I think Eejacks point was that most union electricians couldnt pass the jmans exam in most states. There just not as good as there antiunion counterparts.


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## Hackster (Jun 15, 2013)

Goldagain said:


> I think Eejacks point was that most union electricians couldnt pass the jmans exam in most states. There just not as good as there antiunion counterparts.


Is that why you failed out of the CE/CW program?


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

Hackster said:


> Is that why you failed out of the CE/CW program?


Yes, you aren't allowed to have a license in that local, once I got my license I was no longer qualified to hack for 351. I had to either shelf my license or shelf my ticket.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Goldagain said:


> Yes, you aren't allowed to have a license in that local, once I got my license I was no longer qualified to hack for 351. I had to either shelf my license or shelf my ticket.


You can have an electrical contractor's license in New Jersey and work for local 351 ( as well all of the other nj locals ), you cannot have a business permit.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

eejack said:


> You can have an *electrical contractor's license* in New Jersey and work for local 351 ( as well all of the other nj locals ), you cannot *have a business permit.*


Here you can have all the afore mentioned, business license.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

BBQ said:


> Without the states j-man license *they make nothing.*
> 
> So tell us again how it has no value.
> 
> Jesus sometimes you act like a true idiot. :laughing:


It has no value.

Seriously, if you work in a state where some local license is required the local union trains you and preps you for the test. Honestly - it is not a difficult concept to understand. We test all throughout our apprenticeships, why would some local license test be any sort of obstacle? 

Heck, most of the work I do is completely outside of the purview of any local or state authority in any event.

But if it makes you feel better, you can believe that passing some licensing requirements is what makes you the money you make.


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## xaH (Jun 21, 2013)

..........


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Goldagain said:


> I think Eejacks point was that most union electricians couldnt pass the jmans exam in most states. There just not as good as there antiunion counterparts.


Good luck passing the journeyman's exam in NJ goldilocks.:thumbsup:


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## Hackster (Jun 15, 2013)

eejack said:


> You can have an electrical contractor's license in New Jersey and work for local 351 ( as well all of the other nj locals ), *you cannot have a business permit.*


Sure you can :whistling2:


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

eejack said:


> It has no value.
> 
> Seriously, if you work in a state where some local license is required the local union trains you and preps you for the test. Honestly - it is not a difficult concept to understand. We test all throughout our apprenticeships, why would some local license test be any sort of obstacle?
> 
> ...



Must be different from state to state. Hopefully our statewide licensing will go into effect this next year and it will abolish all of the city licensing etc. in the state. Someone with a Masters will be able to go anywhere in the state.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

eejack said:


> It has no value.
> 
> Seriously, if you work in a state where some local license is required the local union trains you and preps you for the test. Honestly - it is not a difficult concept to understand. We test all throughout our apprenticeships, why would some local license test be any sort of obstacle?
> 
> ...


Seriously stop, you are acting like a fool.:laughing:

Just man up and admit you misspoke.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

Goldagain said:


> I think Eejacks point was that most union electricians couldn't pass the jmans exam in most states. There just not as good as there anti union counterparts.


When I worked for the union long ago, you could not turn out until you passed the JW exam.
Every JW on the job had a license. Had to have a license.

I believe the license was required by the local as part of the training.
It also does not hurt to have licensed guys on the job.
Apprentices being the only ones without a license.


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## Hackster (Jun 15, 2013)

John Valdes said:


> When I worked for the union long ago, you could not turn out until you passed the JW exam.


 There is no more JW exam, too many JATC apprentices couldn't pass it :laughing:



> Every JW on the job had a license. Had to have a license.


 That's dependent on the state, not the IBEW.


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

eejack said:


> Good luck passing the journeyman's exam in NJ goldilocks.:thumbsup:


Why would I take the JW exam I'm an ABC contractor. I only do schools and PW work now tho. :thumbsup: I don't hire union slugs tho I have higher standards no need to send your resume.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Goldagain said:


> no longer qualified to hack for 351.


That's bad when the guy that hacks it up out of a trail blazer isn't qualified to hack anymore. :laughing:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

I know quite a few JWs that after finishing apprenticeship school failed the washington DC licensing test.


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## Hackster (Jun 15, 2013)

brian john said:


> I know quite a few JWs that after finishing apprenticeship school failed the washington DC licensing test.


My local is sister locals with eejack's. I've worked with many 164 journeyman and apprentices over the years.

The JATC is what you make of it, you have the ability to learn if you want to. However, if you just want to coast, they'll let you do that too. Tests are not only open book, but "open discussion", which means anyone who wants to take the test can take it, but anyone who doesn't want to take it could just get the answers from someone else. 

Many of the apprentices go thru the entire apprenticeship without actually trying or paying attention. And since there is no test to take to become a journeyman, those people make it just like the ones who cared. That's why state or local tests help weed out the slackers, when the state has those licenses.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Can you say meritocracy? ~CS~


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## Hackster (Jun 15, 2013)

The JATC did get better, tho. Back when I went thru apprenticeship we went to class at night, and the second half of the class always took place at the strip bar.

Even further back when eejack was an apprentice, I doubt you could find a single sober person in class, including the instructor. 

Now they cracked down on that quite a bit.


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## fiieeldy (Jun 11, 2013)

*Well i took my interview, made the list im # 4 from the top. Now waiting to see what happens nxt.*


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