# Need some Ideals



## Wireman191 (Aug 28, 2011)

What I have is 3 water tanks that get filled with the same 4" water pipe and same pump. Main pump is about 100' down the line, and each tank has a smaller pump that pumps the water back to the main tank that is a 100' down the line. So one big circle.
The three tanks over flow all the time, they acualy have a guy the will ajust the hand valve for all three tanks all day long. So we were asked how we could fix this for them.
How can I keep the water constant in all three tanks being filled with the one pump?
I was wondering if they make a float that would act like a speed pot for a VFD, so when the tank is low it would not pump as much, when it starts getting high it will speed up and pump the water out. Also Putting the main pump on a VFD so they can slow it down to help.
Or a valve that would open and close the 4' pipe via a high, low float.

Any other options welcome!


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

Build a control panel.
Hi and low level floats for each tank.
Contactors for each motor.
Solenoids on each pipe.

You could also add flow meters and timers.

Some lights, buzzer and bells will really jazz it up too.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Wireman191 said:


> *Need some Ideals*


They sell those at lowes I think :laughing:


So I'm reading between the lines that these are bottom fill tanks who's bases are not at the same elevation right? 

Are the recirc pumps tapped from the tanks seperatly or do they share the same tap as the fill? 

If they are separate one option would be to put altitude valves on each tank fill and then a pressure transducer on the fill line for the VFD and do a PID loop.


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## Wireman191 (Aug 28, 2011)

Jlarson said:


> They sell those at lowes I think :laughing:
> 
> 
> So I'm reading between the lines that these are bottom fill tanks who's bases are not at the same elevation right?
> ...


One common feed, and one common return
So all I can think of doing is speeding the return up, slowing the feed pump down. There not wanting to spend a ton of money on it of course.
The 3 tanks getting filled are at the same elevation


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Wireman191 said:


> The 3 tanks getting filled are at the same elevation


They aren't identical tanks then?


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## Wireman191 (Aug 28, 2011)

Jlarson said:


> They aren't identical tanks then?


They are Identical.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Oh so you're saying all 3 overflow at the same time.


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## Wireman191 (Aug 28, 2011)

they have a hand valve they open and close to try to keep the water for over flowing, for what ever reason they can find the right happy medium for it to work. but yes, all would overflow at the same time if the valves are in the same position.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Wireman191 said:


> they have a hand valve they open and close to try to keep the water for over flowing, for what ever reason they can find the right happy medium for it to work. but yes, all would overflow at the same time if the valves are in the same position.


Tell me a little more about this system, what fills the main tank? what do the 3 storage tanks provide water for, what draws off them? and what's their purpose for the recirc pumps?


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## Wireman191 (Aug 28, 2011)

The main tank is a hydro cooler, its just recuculating water. Out of that tank one I believe 15 HP pump pumps the water down a 4" pipe that tees off to each of the three other tanks. The tanks have a conveyor in them, they have to dump buckets of cherries into the water to cool them before packing them. 

Out of the smaller tanks there is a 3HP pump pumping the water out of the tank into a return 4" pipe these are also teed. But each has its own pump. So IDK if they all over flow at the same time or not for sure because of the way they piped it.
So I want to make it so each of the 3 tanks will maintain a certain level independently.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Interesting, never worked on a cherry cooler. 

How about a level sensor on each of the 3 tanks, a valve on the fill, A small brick PLC at each and control over the 3 hp recirc pumps . 

When the level is below the set point valve open, recirc on, when the level hits set point valve closes, recirc pump stays on and starts to pump down again when the level drops to how ever low it can go open the valve again. 

Put a pressure switch on the main pump to cut it off if all three valves close. 

No need to run wire between tanks or the main tank and you can take any of the 3 tanks down and not effect the other 2. 

kinda quick, dirty and cheap but probably get you close enough.


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## Wireman191 (Aug 28, 2011)

Jlarson said:


> Interesting, never worked on a cherry cooler.
> 
> How about a level sensor on each of the 3 tanks, a valve on the fill, A small brick PLC at each and control over the 3 hp recirc pumps .
> 
> ...


I like it! I was thinking best option would be the valve, of cousre thats the olny thing we dont have on hand.:laughing: 
Ill let ya know how it works out, Love the pressure switch for the main pump. I was thinking I was going to have to run another damn conduit. 
Thank you!


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

Celtic said:


> Build a control panel.
> Hi and low level floats for each tank.
> Contactors for each motor.
> Solenoids on each pipe.
> ...


Dont forget the whistle.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

I could do all that with a pressure transducer in a tapping in the bottom of each tank, few solenoid valves, a little math in the PLC, and, viola, problem solved.


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

MDShunk said:


> I could do all that with a pressure transducer in a tapping in the bottom of each tank, few solenoid valves, a little math in the PLC, and, viola, problem solved.



O M G !!!! VIOLA is back !!!!!  :laughing:


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

oldtimer said:


> O M G !!!! VIOLA is back !!!!!  :laughing:


Okay, voilà. Never took you for the spelling police type. 

Probably should have just said, "bingo, bango, bongo", instead.


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

MDShunk said:


> Okay, voilà. Never took you for the spelling police type.
> 
> Probably should have just said, "bingo, bango, bongo", instead.


 

Civilization ..... The Andrews Sisters. :laughing:



Sorry, not trying to offend, it just struck me funny!


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

Wireman191 said:


> What I have is 3 water tanks that get filled with the same 4" water pipe and same pump. Main pump is about 100' down the line, and each tank has a smaller pump that pumps the water back to the main tank that is a 100' down the line. So one big circle.
> The three tanks over flow all the time, they acualy have a guy the will ajust the hand valve for all three tanks all day long. So we were asked how we could fix this for them.
> How can I keep the water constant in all three tanks being filled with the one pump?
> I was wondering if they make a float that would act like a speed pot for a VFD, so when the tank is low it would not pump as much, when it starts getting high it will speed up and pump the water out. Also Putting the main pump on a VFD so they can slow it down to help.
> ...


Ideals? :laughing: Just kidding as it HAD to be a typo. By the way. Titles can be edited.


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## Wireman191 (Aug 28, 2011)

John Valdes said:


> Ideals? :laughing: Just kidding as it HAD to be a typo. By the way. Titles can be edited.


How????


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## Wireman191 (Aug 28, 2011)

We are going to put all four pumps on a VFDs. that way they can slow the main down, speed the return pumps up. My boss looked into valves for them and said they would be about 1600 apiece, so this was suppose to be cheaper because they have all the frq drives, accept the big one.
So is there something out there that can work off the weight of the water, or something to sense how much water is in the tank to speed the drive up or slow it down? I know there has to be something, just don't know where to start looking


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

Wireman191 said:


> We are going to put all four pumps on a VFDs. that way they can slow the main down, speed the return pumps up. My boss looked into valves for them and said they would be about 1600 apiece, so this was suppose to be cheaper because they have all the frq drives, accept the big one.
> So is there something out there that can work off the weight of the water, or something to sense how much water is in the tank to speed the drive up or slow it down? I know there has to be something, just don't know where to start looking


Many VFDs have built in PID controllers. All you have to do is add a pressure transmitter and do the programming in the VFD. Water is about 0.433 psi per foot, so you multiply that by the tank height and get a transmitter with an upper range a bit above that.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Wireman191 said:


> valves for them and said they would be about 1600 apiece


Jesus:blink:, what did he do just have the supply house get prices or something.

What type of piping system is it, PVC?


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## butler746 (May 7, 2012)

Why not use float switches on each tank that will control a inlet water solenoid valve?
That way the pump pressures would basically be constant unless a tank level is below the low level float switch and then turns on/open the solenoid valve filling tank until high level is reached then turn off/close the solenoid valve.
Simple and fairly cost effective.
Basically 6 float switches and 3 Solenoid vales plus the wiring.


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## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

I'm having a hard time evisioning what this system is doing, pumping out of one tank into 3 others then back into the first. Seems like a lot of nothing accomplished. But oh well...

In theory, since ALL of the water is going to come out of tank 1 and back from 2, 3 and 4 back to 1, there should be no need for the VFD on the feed from tank 1. In fact if you start changing speed on that pump you might run a risk of creating dynamic situations with the other three that could get out of control, i.e. the tank 1 pump running slower than the return pumps. I would put PID loop controls on the 3 tanks to maintain a tank level in each one against a constant flow coming from the main pump.


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## Wireman191 (Aug 28, 2011)

JRaef said:


> I'm having a hard time evisioning what this system is doing, pumping out of one tank into 3 others then back into the first. Seems like a lot of nothing accomplished. But oh well...
> 
> In theory, since ALL of the water is going to come out of tank 1 and back from 2, 3 and 4 back to 1, there should be no need for the VFD on the feed from tank 1. In fact if you start changing speed on that pump you might run a risk of creating dynamic situations with the other three that could get out of control, i.e. the tank 1 pump running slower than the return pumps. I would put PID loop controls on the 3 tanks to maintain a tank level in each one against a constant flow coming from the main pump.


The reason it is sent form one main tank to the smaller three is because the lager tank has coils in it to cool the water. I guess for every hour they cant get the cherries to 34-36 degrees they lose a day of shelf life.

The only reason for the VFD one the main pump is kind of a backup for them. in case the other ones just cant get rid of the water quick enough.
Water overflowing in this case = cherries falling on the floor.


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## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

Wireman191 said:


> The reason it is sent form one main tank to the smaller three is because the lager tank has coils in it to cool the water. I guess for every hour they cant get the cherries to 34-36 degrees they lose a day of shelf life.
> 
> The only reason for the VFD one the main pump is kind of a backup for them. in case the other ones just cant get rid of the water quick enough.
> Water overflowing in this case = cherries falling on the floor.


Makes much more sense now. I like back up plans.


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## Wireman191 (Aug 28, 2011)

Jlarson said:


> Jesus:blink:, what did he do just have the supply house get prices or something.
> 
> What type of piping system is it, PVC?


 Ya its PVC. Didn't sound right to me, but oh well.
I'm very interested to see if my original plan works. Its like a little kid waiting for Christmas to come!:laughing:


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