# 2011 code



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

doogie said:


> What are your thoughts about outlets in foyer on any wall over 36 inches?And also how are you putting a neutral in every switch .I am feeding at one end and switching at other end of 3 ways.Some guys are using the single the single poles as there neutral but it is not on same circuit is this right or wrong


I do the same thing with 3ways.

I don't understand what that means in red..


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## doogie (Feb 16, 2011)

I started a year ago feeding at one and and switching at other end .Not sure why red either


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

All switches in the switch box must have their corresponding neutral. Thus if you have 2 gang of switches on 2 different circuits then the neutral for each circuit must be present.

If you switch on on end of a 3 way and feed the other then the neutral is there.


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## doogie (Feb 16, 2011)

That is what I thought .Some guys don't not under stand till it fails


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## doogie (Feb 16, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> All switches in the switch box must have their corresponding neutral. Thus if you have 2 gang of switches on 2 different circuits then the neutral for each circuit must be present.
> 
> If you switch on on end of a 3 way and feed the other then the neutral is there.


Some are still feeding and switch at same end and dead end with a single pole in a gang box


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

doogie said:


> Some are still feeding and switch at same end and dead end with a single pole in a gang box


I understand and that is not compliant. Problem is that most ahj's will not look that hard.


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## doogie (Feb 16, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I understand and that is not compliant. Problem is that most ahj's will not look that hard.


I agree .But that also cause afci problem with dimmer ?


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

doogie said:


> I agree .But that also cause afci problem with dimmer ?


Only if the neutral is used on the wrong circuit. In most cases the dimmers don't utilize neutrals unless they are LV style or electronic types.


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## doogie (Feb 16, 2011)

But why do you need nuetral in ever box?and know a foyer can have more outlet then some bed rooms


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

doogie said:


> But why do you need nuetral in ever box?and know a foyer can have more outlet then some bed rooms


You need a neutral in every switch box in case someone adds a occupancy sensor or electronic timer or switch. In the past the equipment grounding conductor was used and now they have forced the manufacturers to make the electronic devices using the neutral not the equipment grounding conductor.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

The foyer is what it is... The receptacles do not need to be spaced every 3 feet just one receptacle on any wall that is 3' long. A 10' wall would only need one receptacle.


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## doogie (Feb 16, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> You need a neutral in every switch box in case someone adds a occupancy sensor or electronic timer or switch. In the past the equipment grounding conductor was used and now they have forced the manufacturers to make the electronic devices using the neutral not the equipment grounding conductor.


Thank you for answer


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## doogie (Feb 16, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> The foyer is what it is... The receptacles do not need to be spaced every 3 feet just one receptacle on any wall that is 3' long. A 10' wall would only need one receptacle.


Yes but if you four short walls what do you have


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

doogie said:


> Thank you for answer


No problem. That is why we are here- well some of us anyway. :laughing:


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## doogie (Feb 16, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> You need a neutral in every switch box in case someone adds a occupancy sensor or electronic timer or switch. In the past the equipment grounding conductor was used and now they have forced the manufacturers to make the electronic devices using the neutral not the equipment grounding conductor.


Would they go on both ends of 3way ? That could make afci problem .the way I said some are doing 3ways


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

doogie said:


> Would they go on both ends of 3way ? That could make afci problem .the way I said some are doing 3ways


It depends. Some electronic dimmers may need a neutral at both ends. I believe massachusettes amended the NEC to only require a neutral at one end of the 3 ways.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

I know the Maestro LV dimmers only have a neutral needed on the master switch but not on the slave. Not sure if some req. it in both places-- I suspect not.


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## Elephante (Nov 16, 2011)

Isn't there an exception to this.404.2 ex.2 cable assemblies for switches enter the box through a framing cavity that's open at the top or bottom on the same floor level, or through a wall, or ceiling that's unfinished on one side.


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I understand and that is not compliant. *Problem is that most ahj's will not look that hard*.


i dont think thats a problem at all. this change is ridiculous in my opinion and its only intention is to prevent people who don't know any better from using the gec for a neutral in devices that require them i.e. digital timers/occ sensors. we're not on 2011 here but when we are i dont see our local resi companies adhering to it


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Elephante said:


> Isn't there an exception to this.404.2 ex.2 cable assemblies for switches enter the box through a framing cavity that's open at the top or bottom on the same floor level, or through a wall, or ceiling that's unfinished on one side.


Yes and there is also an exception for conduit. I am assuming the standard situation where the neutral is needed.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

ponyboy said:


> i dont think thats a problem at all. this change is ridiculous in my opinion and its only intention is to prevent people who don't know any better from using the gec for a neutral in devices that require them i.e. digital timers/occ sensors. we're not on 2011 here but when we are i dont see our local resi companies adhering to it


You mean equipment grounding conductor not grounding electrode conductor.

The reasoning is that there are beginning to be many switches being used today that utilize the neutral. In the past there were not that many so the occasional connection was not so bad. Now with so many it may put quite a bit of current on the equipment grounding conductor so they are now req. the neutral to be present. I think it is a good change


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## Elephante (Nov 16, 2011)

This code is so stupid.so we have to direct hacks to the neutral wire.how about we all walk around with helmets on.


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

Dennis Alwon said:


> You mean equipment grounding conductor not grounding electrode conductor.
> 
> The reasoning is that there are beginning to be many switches being used today that utilize the neutral. In the past there were not that many so the occasional connection was not so bad. Now with so many it may put quite a bit of current on the equipment grounding conductor so they are now req. the neutral to be present. I think it is a good change


yes i did mean egc. the change might be in the best of intent but it just seems to me like another step towards bubble wrapping every electrical install so even the most imcompetent of hacks can do it right. its up to the installer to perform code compliant installations not up to the NEC to make it so its impossible not to.


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## mbednarik (Oct 10, 2011)

I also think it is a ridiculous rule. We can't protect homeowners from themselves or the handyman they hire.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

mbednarik said:


> I also think it is a ridiculous rule. We can't protect homeowners from themselves or the handyman they hire.


You all are forgetting that before this rule the manufacturers were making the same device but they used their ground wire on the device to carry the current. As an electrician you were hooking these up compliantly by hooking up the green wire from the device to the equipment grounding conductor. Unfortunately that was carrying current. This rule has forced the manufacturers to use a neutral.


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## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

I could argue that in all the switches I've installed, I would NEED to have a neutral in 5% of those boxes.

I also say that, the way the code is written, I don't need a neutral in a dead end 3 way.


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

Deep Cover said:


> I could argue that in all the switches I've installed, I would NEED to have a neutral in 5% of those boxes.
> 
> I also say that, the way the code is written, I don't need a neutral in a dead end 3 way.


the way i read it the first time i saw it was that you also dont need the neutral if there's an attic above or an unfinished basement below the switch. i felt like the exception was basically stating if there are means available to fish a wire to the device box from below, above, or behind then you're all good. thoughts?


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## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

ponyboy said:


> the way i read it the first time i saw it was that you also dont need the neutral if there's an attic above or an unfinished basement below the switch. i felt like the exception was basically stating if there are means available to fish a wire to the device box from below, above, or behind then you're all good. thoughts?


I agree and there is an exception in 404 that switch loops do not require a grounded conductor.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

doogie said:


> But why do you need nuetral in ever box?


You don't. The NEC used to be about safety. It actually said it was not a design manual. It may even still say that but it would have to have a little winky face emoticon after it.  Now it's a tool of manufacturers to push their products and by all accounts it's working like a charm.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Deep Cover said:


> I agree and there is an exception in 404 that switch loops do not require a grounded conductor.


Could you show me that exception?


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## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

I don't have my 2011 on me right now, but its in the 3way/4way section at the beginning of section 404.


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## jw0445 (Oct 9, 2009)

The only thing I can find is 404.2C

*(C) Switches Controlling Lighting Loads.​*​​​​Where switches
control lighting loads supplied by a grounded general purpose
branch circuit, the grounded circuit conductor for the controlled
lighting circuit shall be provided at the switch location.​
_Exception: The grounded circuit conductor shall be permitted
to be omitted from the switch enclosure where either
of the following conditions in (1) or (2) apply:
(1) Conductors for switches controlling lighting loads enter
the box through a raceway. The raceway shall have
suffıcient cross-sectional area to accommodate the extension
of the grounded circuit conductor of the lighting
circuit to the switch location whether or not the
conductors in the raceway are required to be increased
in size to comply with 310.15(B)(3)(a).
(2) Cable assemblies for switches controlling lighting
loads enter the box through a framing cavity that is
open at the top or bottom on the same floor level, or​through a wall, floor, or ceiling that is unfinished on
one side.
Informational Note: The provision for a (future) grounded
conductor is to complete a circuit path for electronic lighting​control devices.
_


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

jw0445 said:


> The only thing I can find is 404.2C


Yes and it says nothing on exempting switch loops. I think he was thinking in commercial work there is often a switch loop and no neutral. That is fine if it is in pipe and when can easily add a neutral. If it is mc or cable then it must have the neutral unless it meets the other exception.


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## FlatRateGator (Feb 13, 2013)

Years ago, back when hitting a light box with power and dropping a switch loop was popular, I wired houses. Often we would drop a 14-3 to the switch just to have a neutral for the receptacle run in that room. (Gasp... yeah we had lights and recepts on the same circuit).

Seems that since most switches aren't very far from their lights, it isn't such a big deal.


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## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

> 404.2 Switch Connections.
> (A) Three-Way and Four-Way Switches. Three-way and
> four-way switches shall be wired so that all switching is
> done only in the ungrounded circuit conductor. Where in
> ...


I will admit, that this Exception seems a little out of place, but there it is.


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## Elephante (Nov 16, 2011)

What is going to stop a hack from hooking a ground to a neutral? What is this code really protecting the manufacturer or the public's well being?


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Deep Cover said:


> I will admit, that this Exception seems a little out of place, but there it is.


That has nothing to do with (C). That is relating back to 300.3(B)..where we are told the neutral must run with the circuit conductors. The quote exempts switch loops but it has nothing to do with part (C)


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## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

Dennis Alwon said:


> That has nothing to do with (C). That is relating back to 300.3(B)..where we are told the neutral must run with the circuit conductors. The quote exempts switch loops but it has nothing to do with part (C)


I'm not qualified to argue code with you, but the way the code reads (at least to me) 3 and 4 way switches are exempt from needing a grounded conductor. However, I have not heard my WI's official stance on this because we have not adopted the 2011.


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## Elephante (Nov 16, 2011)

This is from the Leviton pocket guide "Many electricians don't include a neutral conductor at switch locations, and the unfortunate result is the equipment grounding conductor being used as the neutral conductor". Wait soooo when you guys were using the bare ground it wasn't "unfortunate".


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Deep Cover said:


> I'm not qualified to argue code with you, but the way the code reads (at least to me) 3 and 4 way switches are exempt from needing a grounded conductor. However, I have not heard my WI's official stance on this because we have not adopted the 2011.


You cannot use one section of code and apply it to the other. The section (C) has it's exception however it seems that what you quoted no longer should be in the NEC.


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## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

Dennis Alwon said:


> You cannot use one section of code and apply it to the other. The section (C) has it's exception however it seems that what you quoted no longer should be in the NEC.


To me, that is specific to 3 and 4 ways. I understand what you are saying, but like you said, if it doesn't apply why is it in there?

Let me ask this...would it make a difference in your mind if the two (A and C) were swapped and the 3 way section came after the Switches Controlling Lighting Loads section?


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Deep Cover said:


> To me, that is specific to 3 and 4 ways. I understand what you are saying, but like you said, if it doesn't apply why is it in there?
> 
> Let me ask this...would it make a difference in your mind if the two (A and C) were swapped and the 3 way section came after the Switches Controlling Lighting Loads section?



Not at all.

The last sentence in the section you quoted (A) is what that exception refers to. The exception makes no sense when applied to the first sentence.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

From the 2011 NECHB:



> The exception to 404.2 does not require a grounded conductor in a switch loop [see 300.20(A)] because the ungrounded conductor both enters and leaves the enclosure in the same cable or raceway, thus avoiding inductive heating.


Go figure. They stick the requirement in so dimmers n such that need a neutral will have a proper neutral to tie to, then toss in an exception for switch loops, which electrically work identical to switch boxes fed with power and a leg going to the light.

If anything, I can see the '14 _taking out_ the exception.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

480sparky said:


> From the 2011 NECHB:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree and as I said earlier it should be taken out. Again that is only in there to satisfy 300.20(A).

In fact, I think that it will not disappear because it still has yo allow that exception for when conduit is used otherwise someone will turn it down based on 300.3

It is all entwined


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

BTW, the draft of the 2014 has put an exception for 3 ways-- only one of the locations needs a grounded conductor.



> Exception No. 3: Where multiple switch locations control
> the same lighting load in an interior room or space, a
> grounded circuit conductor of the lighting circuit shall not
> be required at each such location if one has been provided
> ...


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> BTW, the draft of the 2014 has put an exception for 3 ways-- only one of the locations needs a grounded conductor.


Mass amended the '11 to say just that... So business as usual here. :laughing:


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

thegoldenboy said:


> Mass amended the '11 to say just that... So business as usual here. :laughing:


Yes I said that in an earlier post- about the 3 ways but is the rest of it also there in the MA amendment


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Yes I said that in an earlier post- about the 3 ways but is the rest of it also there in the MA amendment


I thought I followed the thread closely, but somehow missed you saying that. I found it now. :laughing: So now I'm uh, just reaffirming that you're right. :thumbup:


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## Elephante (Nov 16, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> BTW, the draft of the 2014 has put an exception for 3 ways-- only one of the locations needs a grounded conductor.


Ok.That makes sense.Pick the one with the neutral but it still isn't going to stop someone from putting it on the side without the grounded conductor. Homeowner is going to want dimmer in a specific location and hack is going to put it there.I guess you can't prevent everything.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Elephante said:


> Ok.That makes sense.Pick the one with the neutral but it still isn't going to stop someone from putting it on the side without the grounded conductor. Homeowner is going to want dimmer in a specific location and hack is going to put it there.I guess you can't prevent everything.



Sure we can. I hear the 2017 NEC is going to require 1" EMT minimum for all dwellings. :laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

480sparky said:


> Sure we can. I hear the 2017 NEC is going to require 1" EMT minimum for all dwellings. :laughing::laughing::laughing:


True, but only one 1" EMT will be required. Its up to the electrician to figure out how to fit all the circuits for the house into one raceway. :jester:

Pete


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Sure we can. I hear the 2017 NEC is going to require 1" EMT minimum for all dwellings. :laughing::laughing::laughing:


1" rigid... you know... for physical protection from sheetrock screws.


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## Elephante (Nov 16, 2011)

thegoldenboy said:


> 1" rigid... you know... for physical protection from sheetrock screws.


Don't forget Explosion proof fittings and gfi/afci meters..


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## doogie (Feb 16, 2011)

Generator panel in all new homes


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

Elephante said:


> Don't forget Explosion proof fittings and gfi/afci meters..


I've already come to the decision if I build a house, I'm doing it in pipe. 3/4 seems like the perfect amount of overkill for the majority of it. Even if I just rewire the house.

Why? Because I can.


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## Aegis (Mar 18, 2011)

doogie said:


> Generator panel in all new homes


I just did one of those in my parents place lol


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## Elephante (Nov 16, 2011)

thegoldenboy said:


> I've already come to the decision if I build a house, I'm doing it in pipe. 3/4 seems like the perfect amount of overkill for the majority of it. Even if I just rewire the house.
> 
> Why? Because I can.


When I build my house I want my foyer stairs to lift up like the Munsters when there is a short circuit.


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## Elephante (Nov 16, 2011)

Instead of the dragon blowing fire , I want Mike Holt to come out in his bare foot water skiing outfit explaining what went wrong.


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

Elephante said:


> When I build my house I want my foyer stairs to lift up like the Munsters when there is a short circuit.


Now that would be awesome. My uncles basement stairs were located behind a false bookshelf, I always thought that was cool.


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## doogie (Feb 16, 2011)

Aegis said:


> I just did one of those in my parents place lol


We do a good bit here .it is extra .I was meaning doing it per nec


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## Aegis (Mar 18, 2011)

doogie said:


> We do a good bit here .it is extra .I was meaning doing it per nec


You do generator panels in houses?


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## doogie (Feb 16, 2011)

Aegis said:


> You do generator panels in houses?


Yes . For extra cost to the builder .


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