# OK, I feel really, really stupid... Help?



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

You don't switch the neutral. It should not be connected to the switch. You switch only the hot(s).

What are you using for the 'selector' switch?


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## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

It sounds like you might have a switch loop that you messed up. if there were only two wires in the switch box originally, then the white is not actually a neutral, it's a hot. 










Having said that, _if_ this is the setup you have, _and_ you just connected your new wire in parallel with the switch, what you've really done is put that new light in series with the sconces. Assuming all bulbs are incandescent, they probably are all on but dim when the switch is "off". Turning the switch on bypasses the shower light and brightens up the sconces.


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## danhasenauer (Jun 10, 2009)

Vintage Sounds said:


> It sounds like you might have a switch loop that you messed up. if there were only two wires in the switch box originally, then the white is not actually a neutral, it's a hot.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


^+1 1926? My guess is you have a hot and switch leg only in the box, no neutral, or even possibly a "switched neutral" (hot all the time at the fixture) and no true hot at the switch arrangement, as seen in a lot of houses of that vintage. Lot of weird stuff done way back then, anything built pre-WWII is a crap-shoot at best. You most likely do not have a hot & neutral at your switch box. You need to take down a sconce and correctly identify what-is-what. If you have a ground somewhere (even if you have to go to a plumbing fixture to get it) it will help to locate the actual neutral by continuity to ground testing. Be careful not to rap yourself. Use a contact tester, if not a meter, ticks are junk.


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## Almost always lurkin (Jul 30, 2014)

That dead short is a hint that you connected a hot wire to a neutral because the hot wire was white. In case this doesn't turn out to be simple, and in case you have lots of houses that old in your work area, it might be worth getting Shapiro's book "Old Electrical Wiring: Evaluating, Repairing, and Upgrading Dated Systems".


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

SugarSpark said:


> .......
> Removing the sconces and connecting the 2 sets of wires for the sconces with a piece of romex causes a dead short after cycling the switch once...........



I'm still baffled by this part. You remove the lights, which were working fine, and replaced them with NM?

For what purpose? Where is the other end of the NM? How is it terminated?


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## Voltron (Sep 14, 2012)

Is this a job or at your own house? Either way, you need to get out your meter and figure out what is what in that switch box, before adding to it.


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## SugarSpark (Dec 14, 2015)

First, *Thank You* to anyone who took the time to reply!

Allow me to clarify.

By "selector switch" I mean that the light switch is acting like one, so the idea that I have a hot and neutral switched makes sense. I think Vintage is on point there, possibly the incandescents are on, but dim on one or the other.

Both sconces (On an adjacent wall) have 120 between the leads when I meter them, otherwise I have 120 at the switch.
Being old wiring, there is no ground to be found... I'm thinking I may hook one up just to test what is going on.

I know *I should* be able to figure this out, but I'm apparently incredibly dense today.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

How do you wire this 'selector' switch to both the not and neutral... and it makes sense to do so?

Can you toss up a wiring diagram?


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## kg7879 (Feb 3, 2014)

I think vintage is spot on.

If you are having a hard time figuring it out. Draw it out and follow the current.


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## 3DDesign (Oct 25, 2014)

You added a switch and new light to a switch loop. Your new switch and light are now in series with the original sconces. Adding romex to the original sconces and wire nutting them together is causing the dead short.


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

Put it back like it was and run new lite from one of the sconces?

Or find another source and add new switch for new light?


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

I would have to assume that at this point you are going to have to come off of the light and not the switch.
If that doesn't help, you might have accidentally opened a splice and created what Vintage is showing in his illustration.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

The switch you pigtailed at - was it a three way switch?


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## SugarSpark (Dec 14, 2015)

splatz said:


> The switch you pigtailed at - was it a three way switch?


Just a regular single pole light switch.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

SugarSpark said:


> Just a regular single pole light switch.


How does a SP 'select' anything?


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

We are happy to help but what supervision do you have on this job?


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## SugarSpark (Dec 14, 2015)

It's my house, so I have to check things out with a co-worker who is a JM.

Took power from one of the sconces, and figured out the switch was essentially just a continuity break to the sconces.

It works as intended, I just need to fish some wire through behind the lath and plaster (Right, that will be easy :whistling2 to make it hidden.

So far, it appears there are existing connections to random outlets, as well as the hallway and porch lights on this circuit.... I'm sure it made sense at the time in 1926 - Knob and tube originally.


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## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

SugarSpark said:


> Took power from one of the sconces, and figured out* the switch was essentially just a continuity break* to the sconces.


What did you think a switch was, if not that? :blink:

Good luck getting around all the plaster. That stuff sucks.


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## Mugs (Jan 29, 2013)

FWIW, at least practically speaking: If I was to put a wet location light in a shower (and I have, more than a few times) I would make sure it was GFI'd.


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## danhasenauer (Jun 10, 2009)

Run a temp ground and see which wire at the switch is hot and note it. Remove lamps from sconces (or remove sconces). Check noted hot from above and see if you still have voltage present. Test the one that was not hot in first step for continuity to ground. Lot of switched neutrals out there that used to be K&T wiring in old houses.


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

I think having 120v. at the switch is a clue.


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

Send us a pic of this during and when complete !


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## gnuuser (Jan 13, 2013)

a lot of people run a switch drop using romex and fail to re-colour the white wire to signify it as a hot return.
thats where some newbies in residential tend to get confused. in thinking its a switched neutral.
we as electricians know we are supposed to re-colour the conductor, but do we do so all the time?
coming into a customers home and troubleshooting a circuit can be hairy at times if this is not recognized or taken into account.
being thorough in observing, testing, and visualizing how a circuit is run is a great help.

unless it is a shared neutral (also a no-no) a neutral conductor should not have voltage present when disconnected (ghost voltages not withstanding) ( these can be nulled out with a solenoid type tester or loading type meter)


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

Well I recolour the white on switch leg

But if someone sees a black and a white hooked to a switch, and thinks the white is a neutral, they may be in a little over their head?


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## theJcK (Aug 7, 2013)

Lesson learned. I agree you should tap off one of the sconces.. then you have switched hot AND a neutral. Oh but kill the circuit and throw on a headlamp.


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## PlugsAndLights (Jan 19, 2016)

When adding a another light to an existing lighting circuit it's
electrically easiest to add it to one of the existing lights. If this 
is difficult due site specifics and you need to go from the switch,
you must first make sure that within the switch box you have 
the 2 things you need: a neutral and switched hot. If the box has
these 2 things then it'll also have the unswitched hot but that 
doesn't matter as you'll use neutral and switched hot. Once 
you've found these 2 wires I expect you'll know what to do with
them. 
Hope this helps.
P&L


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