# Smart Meters Panel Change



## CoCo (Apr 2, 2012)

Can you change out a residential panel that has a new smart meter without getting a permit? 
I heard that if you take the meter out, the power company will know and could show up. 
Most panel changes I do, the homeowner doesn't want to pull a permit for, so we get sneaky and go around it. 
Is that not possible with these new meters??

you guys rock.


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## socalelect (Nov 14, 2011)

CoCo said:


> Can you change out a residential panel that has a new smart meter without getting a permit?
> I heard that if you take the meter out, the power company will know and could show up.
> Most panel changes I do, the homeowner doesn't want to pull a permit for, so we get sneaky and go around it.
> Is that not possible with these new meters??
> ...


We do not support un permitted un inspected hack work round here. And yes they do know if the office when u pull one they also have tilt sensors according to a troubleman from my po co. Pull a permit cover ur butt and have it inspected if the job is worth doing its worth doing right from getting. A permit to doing the work and having it inspectes


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## CoCo (Apr 2, 2012)

...gotta love the helpful answers you get on these forums when you are only asking a question. Especially from people who can't spell or write intelligible sentences.


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## chewy (May 9, 2010)

If they are the same smart meters they are installing here they have a "cellphone" inside them which is sending a message out several times a day giving the power companys information on your usage and it will also send a message if the seal on the meter is broken.


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## may electric (Aug 17, 2010)

Why is the home owner deciding if its ok to pull a permit or not?

You should pride in your self that you as a electrical contractor can pull a electrical permit and charge the home owner for it.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

CoCo said:


> Can you change out a residential panel that has a new smart meter without getting a permit?
> I heard that if you take the meter out, the power company will know and could show up.
> Most panel changes I do, the homeowner doesn't want to pull a permit for, so we get sneaky and go around it.
> Is that not possible with these new meters??
> ...


I've pulled out quite a few and never thought once about it. Who really cares if the meter is removed? If I need to look at the terminations in the meter can, I need to look at them. We do not have to get a permit unless we are making repairs or changing the service.

If you have some kind of law in place that does not allow you to remove a meter, or if you are required to contact the utility before you remove it, then make the phone call, that is why they hired you.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

CoCo said:


> Can you change out a residential panel that has a new smart meter without getting a permit?
> I heard that if you take the meter out, the power company will know and could show up.
> Most panel changes I do, the homeowner doesn't want to pull a permit for, so we get sneaky and go around it.
> Is that not possible with these new meters??
> ...


In Minnesota, the HO only pulls a permit if they did the work. If I do the work, I pull the permit. How do you get around the poco seal?


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## wesleydnunder (Mar 19, 2012)

If a permit is required for a panel changeout, then pull one. Is it worth your license just because a homeowner does or doesn't want something? You can always come up with a hundred reasons why you did something wrong. None of them are ever good enough.

Mark


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

I thought all of SCE meters had the barrel locks? 

Charge for the permit and fees. That is why these jobs are $2000 minimum.


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

You could go to prison for 1-3 yrs for that. On the other hand if you run over a person with a car you probably wont get any time.


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## TooFarFromFenway (Jul 15, 2011)

CoCo said:


> ...gotta love the helpful answers you get on these forums when you are only asking a question. Especially from people who can't spell or write intelligible sentences.


Says the guy with 4 posts. The answer, IMO, was quite sufficient, and accurate, spelling and grammar mistakes aside.


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## ecelectric (Mar 27, 2009)

Where I work the meter readers could care less , cut. Seals and all , they unlock for me all the time and never ask for a permit . maybe in some areas they police it Better


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## rrolleston (Mar 6, 2012)

ecelectric said:


> Where I work the meter readers could care less , cut. Seals and all , they unlock for me all the time and never ask for a permit . maybe in some areas they police it Better


I have heard people saying the POCO shows up when a smart meter is pulled and others nothing happens. I have never had to deal with a smart meter yet.


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## azgard (Nov 25, 2011)

kgb62 said:


> Wow! Why so angry?


He's on a trade forum copping an attitude when someone remark's he should just do it -legally-. IP ban him, if this is how he will introduce himself to the community, do you really think he has anything worth adding to it?


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Cletis said:


> You could go to prison for 1-3 yrs for that. On the other hand if you run over a person with a car you probably wont get any time.


I can see that if someone jumped out half of the meter of something but just removing it and checking your terminations? 
BTW,
I pull the wire out of the seal and then just bend a hook on it and shove it back together. I don't tamper with or try to help anyone steel electricity. It isn't worth the hassle.


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

knowshorts said:


> I thought all of SCE meters had the barrel locks?
> 
> Charge for the permit and fees. That is why these jobs are $2000 minimum.


Nope. Ours here at my palatial estate have the little seals with a string that gets wound up into the seal portion. 



ecelectric said:


> Where I work the meter readers could care less , cut. Seals and all , they unlock for me all the time and never ask for a permit . maybe in some areas they police it Better


My past experiences with SCE were the same. In fact, on one of my service changes way back in the early 90's the SCE crew gave me a handful of seals, some rings and blank covers. I can't vouch for how tight or loose they are about it now though, but I would think it would depend on the crew you interact with. 



TooFarFromFenway said:


> Says the guy with 4 posts. The answer, IMO, was quite sufficient, and accurate, spelling and grammar mistakes aside.


Exactly. 



CoCo said:


> ...gotta love the helpful answers you get on these forums when you are only asking a question. Especially from people who can't spell or write intelligible sentences.


You sir need to get a thicker skin and lose the attitude to hang with this crowd or you will either find yourself banned from the forum or totally ignored when you try to request help. 



azgard said:


> He's on a trade forum copping an attitude when someone remark's he should just do it -legally-. IP ban him, if this is how he will introduce himself to the community, do you really think he has anything worth adding to it?


Good point. But let's give him the benefit of doubt to see if he comes back with an adjusted attitude or ends up hanging himself.


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## socalelect (Nov 14, 2011)

mxslick said:


> Nope. Ours here at my palatial estate have the little seals with a string that gets wound up into the seal portion.
> 
> My past experiences with SCE were the same. In fact, on one of my service changes way back in the early 90's the SCE crew gave me a handful of seals, some rings and blank covers. I can't vouch for how tight or loose they are about it now though, but I would think it would depend on the crew you interact with.
> 
> ...


My po co just started using the wind up string seals too


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## kbsparky (Sep 20, 2007)

wesleydnunder said:


> ... Is it worth your license just because a homeowner does or doesn't want something? You can always come up with a hundred reasons why you did something wrong. None of them are ever good enough.
> 
> Mark


Did the OP say he was licensed? From what I read, he probably is NOT ...

In Delaware, Delmarva Power has been implementing those smart meters all over the state. One of the servicemen told me that they are catching a lot of "weekend warriors" doing unlicensed and unauthorized work over the weekends, since the new meters are reporting whenever the power has been interrupted.

Basically, they confiscate the meter, and even disconnect the lines at the pole (if necessary), and inform the homeowner they need a proper inspection card before they will restore power. 

Leaves `em in the dark LOL


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## Davethewave (Jan 6, 2012)

Hypothetically, Service entrance conductors fail on a Friday night. You get an emergency call Saturday morning. You visit the site and determine there has been a failure behind the meter socket. The service is single phase with a bare neutral conductor and the phone call is from a friend. A. Call the utility Co. who shows up and says that they need a city permit before they will reconnect power. City permit takes 48 hours and utility takes another 24 hours. Result = No power for 5 days and a lot of warm beer. :-( or B. Pull the meter replace the sub feed and have a cold beer by 2:00. Ethically, it is probably best to play by the rules ( government and utilities hold all the cards ). I am sure most that use this forum are capable and competent. Sometimes you just have to " Getter Done "


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

if the OP's POCO is PGE, then just do it.. they dont care. Ive pulled hundreds of smart meters, and not once have they ever shown up.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Here, you cut the seal and pull a meter, you might be making a phone call to Dog's wife Beth to post a bail for you. But a trouble permit is easy to pull online (paypal, credit card pymt, or electronic check) for emergency meter jobs, and the poco comes out right quick to power down for you, just give em the permit number once you pull it from the website. I did two last week, the trouble crew showed up within 20 minutes from call time to disconnect power. 
The poco asks you how long you need till the crew returns and reconnects. The field guys are super cool usually. It works way better than a regular hookup that goes thru central planning dept. I do all the city stuff for permit right there onsite with my Ipad. Short checkoff list, it goes thru real fast, as soon as you push the submit button you get your permit.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

macmikeman said:


> Here, you cut the seal and pull a meter, you might be making a phone call to Dog's wife Beth to post a bail for you. But a trouble permit is easy to pull online (paypal, credit card pymt, or electronic check) for emergency meter jobs, and the poco comes out right quick to power down for you, just give em the permit number once you pull it from the website. I did two last week, the trouble crew showed up within 20 minutes from call time to disconnect power.
> The poco asks you how long you need till the crew returns and reconnects. The field guys are super cool usually. It works way better than a regular hookup that goes thru central planning dept. I do all the city stuff for permit right there onsite with my Ipad. Short checkoff list, it goes thru real fast, as soon as you push the submit button you get your permit.


Holy crap. my life would be better if that was the case here.


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

Play by the Power Providers Rules.You will do better in the long run.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

CoCo said:


> ...gotta love the helpful answers you get on these forums when you are only asking a question. Especially from people who can't spell or write intelligible sentences.


gotta love trunk slamming hacks who ask questions how to break the law and get pissed off when no one wants to help them.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Davethewave said:


> Hypothetically, Service entrance conductors fail on a Friday night. You get an emergency call Saturday morning. You visit the site and determine there has been a failure behind the meter socket. The service is single phase with a bare neutral conductor and the phone call is from a friend. A. Call the utility Co. who shows up and says that they need a city permit before they will reconnect power. City permit takes 48 hours and utility takes another 24 hours. Result = No power for 5 days and a lot of warm beer. :-( or B. Pull the meter replace the sub feed and have a cold beer by 2:00. Ethically, it is probably best to play by the rules ( government and utilities hold all the cards ). I am sure most that use this forum are capable and competent. Sometimes you just have to " Getter Done "


Gee, imagine that, following the rules is hard.

Just had this very issue with a business last week, it looked like the inspector was going to make them wait till Monday even though we finished the repair by 11PM Saturday. We told the customer we were done and power would come back when the inspector told the power company. Then I went home.


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## Davethewave (Jan 6, 2012)

macmikeman said:


> Here, you cut the seal and pull a meter, you might be making a phone call to Dog's wife Beth to post a bail for you. But a trouble permit is easy to pull online (paypal, credit card pymt, or electronic check) for emergency meter jobs, and the poco comes out right quick to power down for you, just give em the permit number once you pull it from the website. I did two last week, the trouble crew showed up within 20 minutes from call time to disconnect power.
> The poco asks you how long you need till the crew returns and reconnects. The field guys are super cool usually. It works way better than a regular hookup that goes thru central planning dept. I do all the city stuff for permit right there onsite with my Ipad. Short checkoff list, it goes thru real fast, as soon as you push the submit button you get your permit.


Must be Hi ! Aloha!


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## fanelle (Nov 27, 2011)

macmikeman said:


> Here, you cut the seal and pull a meter, you might be making a phone call to Dog's wife Beth to post a bail for you. But a trouble permit is easy to pull online (paypal, credit card pymt, or electronic check) for emergency meter jobs, and the poco comes out right quick to power down for you, just give em the permit number once you pull it from the website. I did two last week, the trouble crew showed up within 20 minutes from call time to disconnect power.
> The poco asks you how long you need till the crew returns and reconnects. The field guys are super cool usually. It works way better than a regular hookup that goes thru central planning dept. I do all the city stuff for permit right there onsite with my Ipad. Short checkoff list, it goes thru real fast, as soon as you push the submit button you get your permit.


I never heard of a trouble permit before. I have been on emergency calls with PSE&G and AC Electric as the pocos for the area and just had to call the inspector when the office opened and let them know what you did. Does anyone know if they have trouble permits in NJ?


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## CoCo (Apr 2, 2012)

Ha! You guys are hilarious. Bunch of tough talking guys around here trying to look cool in front of the others. Feels like high school. 
Thank you, though, to all the helpful posters! 

I pull permits all the time for my clients. I'm wondering where you guys draw the line though... 
Out here you are supposed to get a permit for anything more than changing a few outlets. If I got a permit for every small job I did, I would never get anything done.


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## daveEM (Nov 18, 2012)

CoCo, you sound like a real fly-by-nighter.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

ecelectric said:


> Where I work the meter readers could care less , cut. Seals and all , they unlock for me all the time and never ask for a permit . maybe in some areas they police it Better


Huh!:blink:

If you are doing service changes without a permit and something goes wrong the paper trail will lead right to you, also if you get bagged doing that without pulling permits the board will revoke your license.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

CoCo said:


> Ha! You guys are hilarious. Bunch of tough talking guys around here trying to look cool in front of the others. Feels like high school.
> Thank you, though, to all the helpful posters!
> 
> I pull permits all the time for my clients. I'm wondering where you guys draw the line though...
> Out here you are supposed to get a permit for anything more than changing a few outlets. If I got a permit for every small job I did, I would never get anything done.


Pulling permits should be part of your invoice, the client pays for your time, so it should be no big deal.


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## RFguy (Sep 11, 2013)

CoCo said:


> Ha! You guys are hilarious. Bunch of tough talking guys around here trying to look cool in front of the others. Feels like high school.


It took you 2-years to think that one up?


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## TheWireNut (Apr 20, 2014)

RFguy said:


> It took you 2-years to think that one up?


 Truly the best post in this thread!

TWN


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## kelleyss (Mar 22, 2012)

I have worked with our local POCO that were installing smart meters with Stimulus?? money, they were going in around local university housing areas. These had contacts inside to connect or disconnect via wireless (we added those to existing cell towers also) I was told by them if they saw power interruption without known trouble in area they would not close back until verified by POCO rep. (I.E. trouble man coming out to see if trunk slammer or known contractor, trees etc.) I will not pull anything unless I am expecting company.


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## FrunkSlammer (Aug 31, 2013)

Coco was in jail for 2 years from the job this thread started.

Anywho.. I've heard also that our smart meters won't turn back on if you remove them. Last service change I did the guys (private sub contractor for government poco) took the old smart meter and just installed a new smart meter. Figure there must be something that has to get reset in it for it to operate again.. beats me, should ask next time.


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## ACA (Sep 3, 2013)

Half the guys on here sound like the teachers pet.


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## Bootss (Dec 30, 2011)

here's a way around pulling a permit. call your local inspector's office, local police, FBI, Power Company, the president, last not least Hillary Clinton. give them your phone number your name your address, drivers license number. tell them you have a special waiver that the customer doesn't want to get a permit then go ahead and pull the meter and the service, everything will be OK after that free and clear.


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## Elephante (Nov 16, 2011)

I always triple the amount when I pull a permit...ex. Service upgrade 50 dollars, I charge 150.


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## Classic_Toby (Mar 18, 2014)

I am in PGE territory and deal with them daily. The smart meters in our area: resi read every 60 mins, and commercial read every 15 mins. 
Pge lags on emergency calls, so I am sure one meter calling for no signal is not a priority. 
I have my own issues with the build depts, but still never did a resi meter change with out a permit...
I don't know how the rest of the country(s) are, but resi meter changes are simple and permits are not an issue. 90% of the time we can get them on-line...Never had one fail or leave people with out power. Plus they are less then $400.00. Pretty cheap to do it right and not mess with it hot (live). 
I just hope if you're not pulling a permit you are charging them a premium, because you are taking all the risk. Unless your unlicensed, I guess?


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## NacBooster29 (Oct 25, 2010)

I honestly see no benefit to doing this job un permitted. ? It can only come back and bite you if something goes wrong. 
But hey its your choice. To be a corner cutting hack, or stay within the rules the legit contractors have to... I guess if you limit your clientele to Craigslist you will be looking to cut costs wherever possible. 
Salute


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