# 2020 GFCI Requirements



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

The NEC is a corrupt document designed to enrich manufacturers and industry professionals who make a living off of "teaching" the NEC. It's one big corrupt cesspool. It's why I consider the NEC a basic guideline of good suggestions that are to be ignored when common sense prevails.


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## Mulder (Sep 11, 2010)

MTW said:


> The NEC is a corrupt document designed to enrich manufacturers and industry professionals who make a living off of "teaching" the NEC. It's one big corrupt cesspool. It's why I consider the NEC a basic guideline of good suggestions that are to be ignored when common sense prevails.


I see.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

MTW said:


> The NEC is a corrupt document designed to enrich manufacturers and industry professionals who make a living off of "teaching" the NEC. It's one big corrupt cesspool. It's why I consider the NEC a basic guideline of good suggestions that are to be ignored when common sense prevails.


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

MTW said:


> The NEC is a corrupt document designed to enrich manufacturers and industry professionals who make a living off of "teaching" the NEC. It's one big corrupt cesspool. It's why I consider the NEC a basic guideline of good suggestions that are to be ignored when common sense prevails.


I see.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

We have a city here that has the requirement for 2 poles on ranges, maybe dryers too. There was a death of a plumber who got hung up on some pipes that were lit up by a miswired range I believe it was. Whether that gets rolled back or the 2020 gets modified, we'll see.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

That’s crazy. Around here, it’s much cheaper to buy a 40 amp spa pack from a hot tub joint than a GFCI breaker.

The CSA sheep will be quick to copy this if it goes through down south.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Home Depot sells spa packs for around 45 bucks last time I bought one. It had a 2 pole 50 amp gfi in it, which I removed and relocated into another panel for a heat pump feeder, saving around $50 dollars in the process. I don't understand how they can sell that spa pack at a loss like that, but I guess they make up for it by selling so many non tamper proof residential grade receptacle outlets in the ten packs that they found in the Leviton Dumpster bins out behind the factory.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I'll have to remember the spa pack thing. $50 is a good savings.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

99cents said:


> That’s crazy. Around here, it’s much cheaper to buy a 40 amp spa pack from a hot tub joint than a GFCI breaker.
> 
> The CSA sheep will be quick to copy this if it goes through down south.


I thought every code change was good and that professionals weren't professional without government oversight?


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## CTshockhazard (Aug 28, 2009)

Well what did you expect, they're running out of things to arc fault? :vs_laugh:


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

CoolWill said:


> 99cents said:
> 
> 
> > That’s crazy. Around here, it’s much cheaper to buy a 40 amp spa pack from a hot tub joint than a GFCI breaker.
> ...


No, some are good and some are manufacturer driven but grouping them all together and blaming “big brother government” sure does make for a good excuse to be a lazy HACK! Lol


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## HertzHound (Jan 22, 2019)

nrp3 said:


> We have a city here that has the requirement for 2 poles on ranges, maybe dryers too. There was a death of a plumber who got hung up on some pipes that were lit up by a miswired range I believe it was. Whether that gets rolled back or the 2020 gets modified, we'll see.


You would think that a properly bonded water system would negate the need for a GFI breaker. They should crack down on garbage installations instead of handing out stickers without walking the site.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

macmikeman said:


> Home Depot sells spa packs for around 45 bucks last time I bought one. It had a 2 pole 50 amp gfi in it, which I removed and relocated into another panel for a heat pump feeder, saving around $50 dollars in the process. I don't understand how they can sell that spa pack at a loss like that, but I guess they make up for it by selling so many non tamper proof residential grade receptacle outlets in the ten packs that they found in the Leviton Dumpster bins out behind the factory.


I remember doing that but now the Eaton/Schneider/Siemens spa packs use a different breaker. Here, a 40 amp spa pack is about $150 from the hot tub store. Same thing from HD is over $200. 40 amp 2 pole GFCI breaker is over $200.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

CoolWill said:


> I thought every code change was good and that professionals weren't professional without government oversight?


I never said that. I got flogged here for using the term “breaker cartel” when that’s exactly what it is.


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## svh19044 (Jul 1, 2008)

I have been using the afci/gfci breakers for the past year on all new circuits so it's a non issue. The finished area was already required to be afci, and the afci/gfci breakers are the same price. No brainer, just throw in the dual protection.

As for the 240v gfci protection, it's adding on a (percentage wise) substantial cost to an already costly part of wiring where I don't believe it has ever been an issue. So what has happened to make them now become gfci protected?


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## svh19044 (Jul 1, 2008)

HertzHound said:


> You would think that a properly bonded water system would negate the need for a GFI breaker. They should crack down on garbage installations instead of handing out stickers without walking the site.


Well at least there has been an occurrence of something happening.

If it saves just ONE plumbers life, how could we not all agree with this important code requirement? :glasses:


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

svh19044 said:


> I have been using the afci/gfci breakers for the past year on all new circuits so it's a non issue. The finished area was already required to be afci, and the afci/gfci breakers are the same price. No brainer, just throw in the dual protection.
> 
> As for the 240v gfci protection, it's adding on a (percentage wise) substantial cost to an already costly part of wiring where I don't believe it has ever been an issue. So what has happened to make them now become gfci protected?


If I put a 120V receptacle beside a sink in a restaurant it needs to be GFCI protected. If it’s 208V, it’s not required. Explain that.


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## Signal1 (Feb 10, 2016)

nrp3 said:


> We have a city here that has the requirement for 2 poles on ranges, maybe dryers too. There was a death of a plumber who got hung up on some pipes that were lit up by a miswired range I believe it was. Whether that gets rolled back or the 2020 gets modified, we'll see.


Wasn't that the one where a guy jumped the neutral and ground in the receptacle?
Something about a finished basement if I recall?

I think there's a pic somewhere.

im gonna pay for this


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Whether this inspired these changes, or whether there were enough incidents before that, I have no idea. Stopping allowing appliance store guys installing range or dryer cords might be a good idea too.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Signal1 said:


> Wasn't that the one where a guy jumped the neutral and ground in the receptacle?
> Something about a finished basement if I recall?
> 
> I think there's a pic somewhere.
> ...


I'll have to ask the inspector next time I see him so I get my story straight. It may have more to do with the range frame being lit up and the pipes being bonded. I forget that exact details. I've seen the range frame lit up before even though it was bonded.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

I remember at grandma’s house you had to be careful when using the kitchen sink. If you were touching the range and the sink at the same time you would get quite the lifter! Lol


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## Mulder (Sep 11, 2010)

nrp3 said:


> I'll have to ask the inspector next time I see him so I get my story straight. It may have more to do with the range frame being lit up and the pipes being bonded. I forget that exact details. I've seen the range frame lit up before even though it was bonded.


Anytime the neutral is connected to a dryer or range frame, and a person provides a path by touching the frame and another grounded object, a shock is likely. Hence the requirement for a 4 wire supply.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

Mulder said:


> Anytime the neutral is connected to a dryer or range frame, and a person provides a path by touching the frame and another grounded object, a shock is likely. Hence the requirement for a 4 wire supply.


That's not true. It isn't likely. The copper neutral is so much of a better conductor than the human body that all but micro or nano amps would travel through a person. If the neutral becomes open though, that's another matter.


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## HertzHound (Jan 22, 2019)

99cents said:


> svh19044 said:
> 
> 
> > I have been using the afci/gfci breakers for the past year on all new circuits so it's a non issue. The finished area was already required to be afci, and the afci/gfci breakers are the same price. No brainer, just throw in the dual protection.
> ...


I can’t explain it. This is the change that was added in our last code book. 

(B)Other Than Dwelling Units.
All single-phase receptacles rated 150 volts to ground or less, 50 amperes or less and three-phase receptacles rated 150 volts to ground or less, 100 amperes or less installed in the following locations shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel.
(1)Bathrooms
(2)Kitchens
(3)Rooftops


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## Mulder (Sep 11, 2010)

CoolWill said:


> That's not true. It isn't likely. The copper neutral is so much of a better conductor than the human body that all but micro or nano amps would travel through a person. If the neutral becomes open though, that's another matter.


If the resistance of a body is 100,000 ohms the current through that body would be 1.2 milliamps if the voltage is 120 volts. Wet or cracked skin can significantly reduce the resistance. A person will feel 1.2 milliamps.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

Mulder said:


> If the resistance of a body is 100,000 ohms the current through that body would be 1.2 milliamps if the voltage is 120 volts. Wet or cracked skin can significantly reduce the resistance. A person will feel 1.2 milliamps.


But the voltage won't be 120 volts.


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## Mulder (Sep 11, 2010)

CoolWill said:


> But the voltage won't be 120 volts.



The resistance is likely to be a lot lower than 100k ohms.


The International Electrotechnical Commission gives the following values for the total body impedance of a hand to hand circuit for dry skin, large contact areas, 50 Hz AC currents (the columns contain the distribution of the impedance in the population percentile; for example at 100 V 50% of the population had an impedance of 1875Ω or less):

Voltage 5% 50% 95%
25 V 1,750 Ω	3,250 Ω	6,100 Ω
100 V 1,200 Ω	1,875 Ω	3,200 Ω
220 V 1,000 Ω	1,350 Ω	2,125 Ω
1000 V 700 Ω	1,050 Ω	1,500 Ω


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

Mulder said:


> The resistance is likely to be a lot lower than 100k ohms.
> 
> 
> The International Electrotechnical Commission gives the following values for the total body impedance of a hand to hand circuit for dry skin, large contact areas, 50 Hz AC currents (the columns contain the distribution of the impedance in the population percentile; for example at 100 V 50% of the population had an impedance of 1875Ω or less):
> ...


Ok, we're still talking about less than 1 volt. You can barely feel that on your tongue.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

At my grandma’s house, I think one of the hots was accidentally connected to the frame of the range and it was not grounded because when you touched the range frame and the sink at the same time it was a huge shock!


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

eddy current said:


> At my grandma’s house, I think one of the hots was accidentally connected to the frame of the range and it was not grounded because when you touched the range frame and the sink at the same time it was a huge shock!



Probably somebody either changed out the cord or the outlet and swapped the neutral and one hot wire on the terminals. I bet it took a long time when grandma was baking cookies and pies.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

macmikeman said:


> Probably somebody either changed out the cord or the outlet and swapped the neutral and one hot wire on the terminals. I bet it took a long time when grandma was baking cookies and pies.


One thanksgiving my cousins were having a contest to see who could hold on to both the longest! I didn’t like that game lain:


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## jelhill (Nov 11, 2018)

manchestersparky said:


> I've been looking into the 2020 NEC …. :vs_OMG:
> 
> BIG changes are being proposed for the 2020 GFCI requirements in dwellings !!
> 
> ...


 
Based on another thread (That has nothing to do with you Manchester) I could say something about the dryer receptacle deal, but I have decided to treat everyone super nice on ET.


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## jelhill (Nov 11, 2018)

manchestersparky said:


> I've been looking into the 2020 NEC …. :vs_OMG:
> 
> BIG changes are being proposed for the 2020 GFCI requirements in dwellings !!
> 
> ...



Are they requiring even more AFCI's?


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## Mulder (Sep 11, 2010)

CoolWill said:


> Ok, we're still talking about less than 1 volt. You can barely feel that on your tongue.


The voltage and current would be dependent on the resistances involved and Ohm's law.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

Mulder said:


> The voltage and current would be dependent on the resistances involved and Ohm's law.


The voltage is dependent on the potential on the frame of the dryer, which is the same as the voltage drop across the neutral, which is almost zero. Zero volts across any resistance is zero amps.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

They should just put GFCI protection in appliances. A soccer mom will spend $2000 on an appliance and then become a barracuda over the cost to wire it.


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

99cents said:


> If I put a 120V receptacle beside a sink in a restaurant it needs to be GFCI protected. If it’s 208V, it’s not required. Explain that.


Not Here !
All single phase receptacles rated 150 volts to ground or less, 50 amperes or less and all 3 phase receptacles rated 150 volts to ground or less, 100 amperes or less require GFCI protection


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

I'm so glad we have the NEC to protect us from the hazards of electricity by requiring more expensive products that make manufacturers lots of profit.


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## JoeSparky (Mar 25, 2010)

MTW said:


> I'm so glad we have the NEC to protect us from the hazards of electricity by requiring more expensive products that make manufacturers lots of profit.



As much as i agree with this, More expensive products make me more profit too. I get a percentage cut on everything I sell :thumbup: At least the GFCI is proven tech and not defective voodoo bull$hit like arc faults.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

JoeSparky said:


> As much as i agree with this, More expensive products make me more profit too. I get a percentage cut on everything I sell :thumbup: At least the GFCI is proven tech and not defective voodoo bull$hit like arc faults.


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## Ca443 (Feb 11, 2019)

Did you read anything in the new code about RV 30 or 50 AMP GFCI protection? I think most read the old code as non-dwelling unit...and GFCI only required on 15 / 20 AMP connections. It never made sense to me as a camper that a 15 / 20 AMP connection would require GFCI as well as hot tub, but a travel trailer or 5th wheel would not....and I have plugged in many of times in the rain.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

Ca443 said:


> Did you read anything in the new code about RV 30 or 50 AMP GFCI protection? I think most read the old code as non-dwelling unit...and GFCI only required on 15 / 20 AMP connections. It never made sense to me as a camper that a 15 / 20 AMP connection would require GFCI as well as hot tub, but a travel trailer or 5th wheel would not....and I have plugged in many of times in the rain.


A 15 or 20 amp connection could be used to plug anything in, not just a camper, so GFCI protection makes sense. But a 30 or 50 amp connection is specialized.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

JoeSparky said:


> As much as i agree with this, More expensive products make me more profit too. I get a percentage cut on everything I sell :thumbup: At least the GFCI is proven tech and not defective voodoo bull$hit like arc faults.


I don't really see much benefit in the small bump in materials cost, markup just isn't where I make my money, but selling refrigerator and sump pump monitoring, that I don't mind. 

But like you say, I have confidence in GFCI doing something useful.


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## cwsims84 (Jan 21, 2012)

I say we AFCI everything.... charge like $2k for a panel and then figure what’s the next best greatest thing out there that will one up the AFCI breakers!!!


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

svh19044 said:


> Well at least there has been an occurrence of something happening.
> 
> If it saves just ONE plumbers life, how could we not all agree with this important code requirement? :glasses:


Then they should not cut copper water lines and interrupt with 
peck on remodels.


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## tmessner (Apr 1, 2013)

For us guys that do ag work on the farm, that means that all 220 outlets for augers on bins or where ever need to be gfi. I agree that there is something wrong when it trips, but try to explain that to a farmer or trucker when they can't get the truck loaded, feed ground or anything else.


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