# Service conductors with branch conductors



## matt1124 (Aug 23, 2011)

came across this today. Me and an EC friend disagree, I'd like to see what you think. Originally the load side of the meter fed a Zinsco panel being used as the service equipment. The bus burned and this landlord had his electrician friend do what you see below. The service conductors now pass through the gutted Zinsco panel to the new panel, then from the new panel the branch circuits come back (some in the same flex as the service conductors) and splice where the old breakers were per normal. 

Is this pass through allowed? I say the old Zinsco panel is no longer service equipment and is just a splice box for branch circuits, and service conductors are not allowed with the branch circuits. He says the only violation is the circuit for the air conditioner that runs in the same flex as the service conductors.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

The photo looks rotated 90 degrees...

The neutrals look like they are not travelling parallel to their hots. :no::no:

I don't see the Meter or MAIN in this photo.

I will give bonus points for seriously hacked work. :thumbup:

You've left out a lot of the specifics. Tell us more.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

There's no NEC prohibition that I'm aware of that prohibits service conductors and fused branch circuit conductors in the same gutter, splice box, raceway, or whatever. I do know there are many PoCo's with rules against that. 

The new panel looks like it has 7 disconnects? Two tandems, two single poles, and a double pole?


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Is that an A-base meter inside of an enclosure? I see those from time to time around here but never had to upgrade one. Usually it's being fed by SEU cable that's completely rotted out.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

MDShunk said:


> There's no NEC prohibition that I'm aware of that prohibits service conductors and fused branch circuit conductors in the same gutter, splice box, *raceway*, or whatever. I do know there are many PoCo's with rules against that.
> ...


What about 230.7?


> 230.7 Other Conductors in Raceway or Cable. Conductors other than service conductors shall not be installed in the same service raceway or service cable.


However the wording is poor. If there are other conductors in the raceway, is it still a "service" raceway?


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> What about 230.7?
> 
> However the wording is poor. If there are other conductors in the raceway, is it still a "service" raceway?


Right, but in this case they just share that gutted panel/junction box.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Let's take a WAG and assume that there is a Meter and MAIN ahead of this mess.

The connections look like store bought Sealtite connections -- sold by Big Box Hardware.

In which case, I'd seriously peak into how he routed his conductors, as this player's style is that of a trunk slammer. 

I would've expected to see a clean feed into the new panel -- directly from the Meter and MAIN all alone in their raceway -- and then branch circuit extensions run down to the old location.

The photo appears to show a copper water line -- somewhat painted -- rolled under the back of the old work.

And though it's obscure, my WAG is that the old box was fed through the wall.

BTW, that's a tiny box for that much 'business.'


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## kg7879 (Feb 3, 2014)

I think this violates 230.7. I guess what really determines whether this is a violation of 230.7 is what the former panel is considered now. Some will say it is a junction box and some will say it is a raceway.

In the end it is a poor practice.


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## matt1124 (Aug 23, 2011)

Ok, sorry for the sideways picture, my phone did that and I cant figure out how to rotate. I've attached a better one.

What we have here is A-base meter. The service comes from overhead and terminates on the meter. From the meter we find #2 CU leaving the meter enclosure, going down through the gutted zinsco panel, through the flex, and terminating on the lugs of that new loadcenter. 

There are six handles. 2 twins, a double 30 and a double 25. Obviously they are using this new addition as the service equipment.

From the new loadcenter, 6 of the circuits return to the gutted zinsco panel through the lighter colored flex, and two conductors return in the same conduit as the service conductors through the darker colored flex.

Is the old zinsco panel considered a service raceway, or a junction box?


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## matt1124 (Aug 23, 2011)

MTW said:


> Is that an A-base meter inside of an enclosure? I see those from time to time around here but never had to upgrade one. Usually it's being fed by SEU cable that's completely rotted out.


Yes. The POCO here still has lots of old A-base meters. When they get around to it, they are using an A-base meter adapter so they can put smart meters in. They look ridiculous in those old cans like that. Here we usually see EMT and a weatherhead instead of an SEU cable, although the conductors are usually very weather beaten and cracked from the sun and the POCO disconnecting and reconnecting the service.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

MDShunk said:


> Right, but in this case they just share that gutted panel/junction box.


From post #1.


> ...then from the new panel the branch circuits come back (some in the same flex as the service conductors)...


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## fargowires (Aug 26, 2010)

OK, what am I missing? Where is the service drop? I don't see how the service conductors enter the meter??


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## fargowires (Aug 26, 2010)

From in the wall? behind the siding??(total hack!)


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## fargowires (Aug 26, 2010)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> From post #1.


Yep, that is a fail. No question.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Is this in California aka Zinscofornia? :laughing:


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## matt1124 (Aug 23, 2011)

fargowires said:


> From in the wall? behind the siding??(total hack!)


Yes, it comes in the top of the meter can from behind the siding. There's a half covered weather head at the soffit.


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## matt1124 (Aug 23, 2011)

MTW said:


> Is this in California aka Zinscofornia? :laughing:


LOL, Zinscohoma!


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## fargowires (Aug 26, 2010)

matt1124 said:


> Yes, it comes in the top of the meter can from behind the siding. There's a half covered weather head at the soffit.


OUCH!!
Gotta love vinyl siding. 
So the new cableguy needs to fasten his attachment point, and BAM! Never saw it comming.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

That has got to be the 2nd ugliest, hackiest residential service I've ever seen. The winner is still ChickenSteve's 6-family upgrade.


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## pjholguin (May 16, 2014)

Don't remember... Can you post the picture?


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

matt1124 said:


> Yes. The POCO here still has lots of old A-base meters. When they get around to it, they are using an A-base meter adapter so they can put smart meters in. They look ridiculous in those old cans like that. Here we usually see EMT and a weatherhead instead of an SEU cable, although the conductors are usually very weather beaten and cracked from the sun and the POCO disconnecting and reconnecting the service.


Speaking of that, where is the service drop in your pic? :001_huh:


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

It is ugly, but I don't think anyone's going to die in the next 40 years because of that installation. It's as least as safe, or safer, than the original installation.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Every main panel with branch circuits have the circuit conductors and service conductors in the same panel. I agree that 230.7 would not apply here


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## redseal14yrs (Jun 8, 2015)

Wow. Just... wow. That looks like the dog's breakfast. Seriously?


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

redseal14yrs said:


> Wow. Just... wow. That looks like the dog's breakfast. Seriously?


Luckily, the codes don't really address looks. The definition of a good job is one that is safely done and within the customer's budget. This job is nothing I'd take pictures of and put on my Mom's refrigerator, but it's got to be better than what existed before.


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## redseal14yrs (Jun 8, 2015)

MDShunk said:


> Luckily, the codes don't really address looks. The definition of a good job is one that is safely done and within the customer's budget.


My code book is about heat dissipation and fire prevention, not the customer's budget.

In Canada it USED to say "The work shall be conducted in a clean, workmanlike manner, and shall be installed such that it is square, flush, level, and plumb."

Now in that same spot it says "The work shall be acceptable"

Which is a BIG grey area, depending on the inspector. 

So this electrician was billing by the inch for the flex that is too short? Customer couldn't afford a 90 degree turn? 

Laughable.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

redseal14yrs said:


> My code book is about heat dissipation and fire prevention, not the customer's budget.
> 
> In Canada it USED to say "The work shall be conducted in a clean, workmanlike manner...


Ours says that too but its legally unenforceable. 

As it should be, ugly is not the ahjs business, its between the customer and contractor, cheap customer gets cheap work.


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## redseal14yrs (Jun 8, 2015)

"Beware of programmers carrying screwdrivers" 

Hahahaha, I love that! We used to have a saying "Don't hire anyone who has 'Future Shop' on their resume"
(Future Shop is a big box electronics store up here, like Best Buy)


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## redseal14yrs (Jun 8, 2015)

I would rather refuse a job than install something I wouldn't pay for myself.

What ever happenned to craftsmanship?


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## matt1124 (Aug 23, 2011)

I showed up because the a/c wasn't working and found the burnt bus. Only having the jman card for electrical work before the whip I had him call someone else then I'd come back and tune it up. 

Spoke with him today about sending the bill to him: "your tenant called me and said the a/c was wired up for me to come back. I saw you had it temp'd (big laugh from me) so I got the unit running again." 

He didn't laugh.


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