# My latest silo panel build



## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

This is my latest panel build. Everything but the wire and terminals were used/salvage pieces from my favorite SH , and things I’d demoed.
The unused relays are for the later stages of the project when I will tie it into the blower latch circuit to shut down the blower after the high limit is hit and the TDR times out in a minute.
The wires on the upper right are labeled now, this pic is a couple weeks old.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

Looks good!


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

460 Delta said:


> This is my latest panel build. Everything but the wire and terminals were used/salvage pieces from my favorite SH , and things I’d demoed.
> The unused relays are for the later stages of the project when I will tie it into the blower latch circuit to shut down the blower after the high limit is hit and the TDR times out in a minute.
> The wires on the upper right are labeled now, this pic is a couple weeks old.


Looks real nice. 

These silos are for coarse aggregate, fine aggregate and portland cement powder? 
Maybe another for water so they can load faster?

How does your industry perform with respect to silo explosions?
Zero?


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

MikeFL said:


> Looks real nice.
> 
> These silos are for coarse aggregate, fine aggregate and portland cement powder?
> Maybe another for water so they can load faster?
> ...


The silos hold Type I/II L cement (type 1-2 w/limestone Portland) and Grancem (blast furnace slag) in the near future. For now the aux. has Type I/II L in it for now.

The coarse and fine agg. (#57 and sand) are in overhead compartments fed by a radial stacker charged with a front end loader.

With the 3 single points of reference now, the plant operator looks at the computer inventory and makes small adjustments to it to match the indicator light. Really the green load down light is the one to pay attention to, if it’s on, a load will fit perfectly fine. They did hit the high limit a few weeks ago when the computer inventory got off from a load not being entered into the inventory. 
This panel is in addition to the pin prick lights on the Command Batch manual station. I didn’t have this panel connected yet, and a yellow Opto relay went bad on the Command input on the load down light causing some confusion when it never illuminated. 

Silo explosions are not a thing really, Portland and Grancem aren’t flammable. Over pressurization from a clogged bag house and a bad/broken/tampered with mushroom (relief valve) would be the only way. An old square silo would be more likely to split from this than a round silo.

Some brands of silos are made much more substantial than others. Belgrades are like walking on an oil can on top of them. A Stephens is somewhat better. A Columbus Bin, and Heltzel silos have ribs inside made from 4” channel iron. They don’t flex, bend, or give. Unfortunately Columbus Bin and Heltzel are fallen flags in the concrete world. If you bought a Columbus Bin or a Heltzel, you bought a lifetime plant that is infinitely rebuildable. The big problem with the older plants is they were designed when a 7yd truck was state of the art and few people foresaw 11yd trucks being a reality.


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

Didn't know they were up to 11 yards now.
That 3rd rear axle allows that I guess.
Thanks for all the info. Hadn't thought about fly ash.

Are fibermesh, accelerant & plasticizer added to the truck after he rolls out from the batch plant?


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

Fiber wether micro or macro is manually put in in bags. We tried the liquid fiber at one plant and it just wasn’t cost effective for the amount of yardage we do in a day. If you have a central plant, liquid fiber would be the trick.

NCA (non chloride accelerator) and CaCl are able to be put in at the plant, but sometimes situations and some contractors want it jugged in at the job site.

Super P, or super plasticizer or high range water reducer for the real nerds can be added at the plant, but tick tock you’re on the clock then, and you have ~45 minutes before it flashes off and it’s done. Super P is nearly always jugged in at the job, due to the time constraints from traveling. The DEF jugs are really handy to reuse for Super P and accelerator. Around here almost every front dump will have a DEF jug of Super P bungeed to the top catwalk, or wedged between the cab and water tank.

They have more than three axles now.


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

I like the front discharge. Just seems safer for a jobsite. Man can see where he needs to be and how to get there without relying on some greenhorn communicating through mirrors.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

why did you begin wiring your terminal strips on the right instead of the left ?
seems backwards to me


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

I was noticing something about your panel you put together.
You have both a timing relay and a standard Ice cube relay. 
That's 2 devices. Our Canadians all agree this cannot pass their 
certification because only one relay is allowed in a control panel without a proper seal of approval from a certified testing agency.


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

Almost Retired said:


> why did you begin wiring your terminal strips on the right instead of the left ?
> seems backwards to me


The wire numbers already on the back pan matched the terminal numbers in the Command Batch junction box. Therefore I just went with it.


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

macmikeman said:


> I was noticing something about your panel you put together.
> You have both a timing relay and a standard Ice cube relay.
> That's 2 devices. Our Canadians all agree this cannot pass their
> certification because only one relay is allowed in a control panel without a proper seal of approval from a certified testing agency.


More than that, there’s three devices, a TDR, and two octal relays. Four if you count the Federal brand horn in the lower left of the panel.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

macmikeman said:


> I was noticing something about your panel you put together.
> You have both a timing relay and a standard Ice cube relay.
> That's 2 devices. Our Canadians all agree this cannot pass their
> certification because only one relay is allowed in a control panel without a proper seal of approval from a certified testing agency.


That's not exactly true. if you want to put a half dozen devices in a box to control the lights in your den, you would likely be fine. If you want to do the same for a 60kw gas boiler, chances are you will get called on it.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

460 Delta said:


> More than that, there’s three devices, a TDR, and two octal relays. Four if you count the Federal brand horn in the lower left of the panel.


Not picking on you or your project. Do you ever worry about something catastrophic happening and the lawyers dissecting your panel during the investigation even if it had nothing to do with it?

Just looking for your opinion. I have built many, many panels from stamped drawings. No worries there. I have also built some without a stamp and I have thought about it.


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

joe-nwt said:


> Not picking on you or your project. Do you ever worry about something catastrophic happening and the lawyers dissecting your panel during the investigation even if it had nothing to do with it?
> 
> Just looking for your opinion. I have built many, many panels from stamped drawings. No worries there. I have also built some without a stamp and I have thought about it.


I don’t really think about it, I do other work that could just as easily be picked apart in a courtroom. A PLC program made in the field and not engineered could just as easily be vilified as a time bomb in a courtroom.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

Drawing?


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

Many years ago, when I was a carpenter who also did foundations, we called the front-dumptrucks 'rite-way'. They were 3 axle and had Caterpillar 3208 engines. 

I don't know where the name came from, likely it was the manufacturer but it could be anything. 

Back then, the rite-ways cost about a dollar mote a yard but concrete was less than $30/yard.


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

How much is a yard of concrete today when buying a full load?
$150?
More?


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

MikeFL said:


> How much is a yard of concrete today when buying a full load?
> $150?
> More?


Depends on the market. In ours, it’s at the $145.00 mark, plus a $50.00 fuel surcharge. In Columbus, it’s at $225.00 a yd plus a $75.00 fuel surcharge because they can. And you’ll most likely be put on a cancellation waiting list to get concrete.


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

micromind said:


> Many years ago, when I was a carpenter who also did foundations, we called the front-dumptrucks 'rite-way'. They were 3 axle and had Caterpillar 3208 engines.
> 
> I don't know where the name came from, likely it was the manufacturer but it could be anything.
> 
> Back then, the rite-ways cost about a dollar mote a yard but concrete was less than $30/yard.


Rite-Way was the original manufacturer that later morphed in Advance and Terex. Pay no attention to the Philly accent


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

460 Delta said:


> More than that, there’s three devices, a TDR, and two octal relays. Four if you count the Federal brand horn in the lower left of the panel.


Yes but one of the relays has no wire attached which means it didn't get counted by me. Having an extra life jacket on the vessel ain't a bad idea.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

On second look, the other only has the coil wired, so I guess this passes in Newfoundland?


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## Djea3 (Mar 8, 2019)

joe-nwt said:


> Not picking on you or your project. Do you ever worry about something catastrophic happening and the lawyers dissecting your panel during the investigation even if it had nothing to do with it?


In the 80's I helped design and build a 120 unit wind turbine park. We purchased a few units from others to handle manufacturing limitations for the tax year. We designed the control panels, blades, nacelles, brakes and controls and all the interface with our substation etc. No one ever considered that question seriously. Most of the controls and relays etc are used "off the rack" and do their jobs well. Our biggest issue was controlling the braking system so that it slowed the blades without shearing them off the hubs.
I designed that system (and nacelles and main support rail and bearing sets) from off the rack components, disc brakes with spring tension normally closed, pneumatic release (open) of the brakes. power loss or deactivation of relay (any operation outside parameters, loss of power from grid or manual shutdown) opened a bleed valve in the pneumatic reservoir which applied the brake slowly. Worked first and every time correctly, at any wind velocity! The hard part was determining air reservoir size and brake power to begin with. I was not a degreed engineer but all worked WELL.

Bottom line, most control systems are pretty straight forward, no matter how many control parameters one is including. The issue in dissecting is whether one not the control panel could safely and correctly control the parameters it was designed to control, and not do recognized things that could cause KNOWN harm. Do you need an ME or an EE or both to sign off? None really if the designer is familiar enough. Today I would say BOTH are needed to mitigate liability issues, However that will not end liability, only mitigate it to a degree.

The problem today is NOT how most things are designed and made. The real issue is the lack of personal accountability for one's own actions in getting hurt to begin with. 

My grandfather lost half a finger to an unguarded table router. None had them then (overall). It was on the job. I think that the employer paid the medical bill to sew the end of this finger over. Grandpa always said it was HIS OWN FAULT. He was a tradesman and he knew better. 

The kid who is told NOT to stick things in receptacles, and does it anyway. It is NOT about more safety devices because they can be violated anyway. It is about the parent that did not spank the S&^% out of him for doing it. IT IS ABOUT the parent wanting to blame someone for their irresponsibility. It is about people not being responsible.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

Djea3 said:


> The kid who is told NOT to stick things in receptacles, and does it anyway. It is NOT about more safety devices because they can be violated anyway. It is about the parent that did not spank the S&^% out of him for doing it. IT IS ABOUT THE PARENT wanting to blame someone for their irresponsibility. *It is about people not being responsible*.


this is why the jails stay full of young men
the parents refused the responsibility of raising them
so now the law has to do it


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

Djea3 said:


> I was not a degreed engineer but all worked WELL.



On a project that size, unless they named the wind park after you, you are just another flunky working there and not on the radar if something had gone wrong. 

Were there many "off the rack" components available in the 80's that were approved and tested for wind farm applications? a lawyer might ask.

There's rarely an investigation on something that works well. 

But I get your point.

I've done similar things as well (not wind farms) in the past. But now that I'm nearing the end of my career, I'm not really as enthusiastic about working for someone's next of kin.


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## Breakfasteatre (Sep 8, 2009)

I would have used din rail, terminal blocks and panduit for the wires, but we build panels regularly.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

Breakfasteatre said:


> I would have used din rail, terminal blocks and panduit for the wires, but we build panels regularly.


Why? What would panduit and din rail do that would make that tiny panel better? His is nice and easy to troubleshoot if there's a problem without having to peel off a bunch of panduit covers.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

Going_Commando said:


> Why? What would panduit and din rail do that would make that tiny panel better? His is nice and easy to troubleshoot if there's a problem without having to peel off a bunch of panduit covers.


A panel is working and then it stops. What part of your troubleshooting routine involves removing panduit covers?


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

Going_Commando said:


> Why? What would panduit and din rail do that would make that tiny panel better? His is nice and easy to troubleshoot if there's a problem without having to peel off a bunch of panduit covers.


his wires are numbered, no need to remove panduit or cut tywraps


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

Almost Retired said:


> his wires are numbered, no need to remove panduit or cut tywraps


He’s probably thinking of all the other panels and controls I’ve done with no numbers or ladder diagram.


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

In the States NEC allows field built panel. Site 3rd party inspection not required if it is all Alisted assemblies and meets NEC.

If you modify a Panel that is done under UL 809 or 809A in any way the Listing label is supposed to be removed. Modify is currently undefined! Since everything part and wire is logged you can’t even replace broken wire technically but nobody follows it that closely. If you do, you should go through field Listing. In the US this is rare unlike Canada.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

460 Delta said:


> I don’t really think about it, I do other work that could just as easily be picked apart in a courtroom. A PLC program made in the field and not engineered could just as easily be vilified as a time bomb in a courtroom.


"IF IT PLEASES THE COURT"


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

Wiring is a bit loose. Mine used to look like that but it’s much better now. Here is how I do it.

First step is prepare wire runs. I would add vertical Panduit too. Put sticky backs at the corners of all “open” 90 degree turns, then every 4” where there is nothing else. Bolt or screw one at either side of the door “landing”. Wipe down (alcohol) all panels before applying sticky backs. Use a heat gun to strip old ones. Put tie wraps loosely in sticky backs and wrap a tie wrap between Panduit fingers. These are just to keep wire neat. Terminate at devices and leave it long at the terminals. Now work from single wires towards larger bundles tie wrapping everything as you go. When you have two wires come together put a tie just past the curve and put it on tight so they hold the 90 degree shape. Bundle them every 4 inches as you go to keep the “spaghetti” look to a minimum. Once in Panduit pull them so the length is roughly in the center of the channel no matter where it moves to naturally. Once you have the length then make a final trim cut and land on the terminal. This is how panel shops do it to give you that clean look. Do this AFTER you have the loose wiring done or you will end up short and have to redo it. Also XHHW is much stiffer and holds shape better than MTW or THHN but I can make all 3 look good. When you get done pop all the tray wraps out and put the covers on. Sometimes you need to put ties in the middle of a tray like running large OD wire. Just leave those in and cinch them down.

Ons exception is crossing doors.. As you cross the doorway leave a good “loop” wrapped in loom or spiral wrap..


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

Breakfasteatre said:


> I would have used din rail, terminal blocks and panduit for the wires, but we build panels regularly.


He only works out of the used parts and scrap bins , but does good with what he has.


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

460 Delta said:


> This is my latest panel build. Everything but the wire and terminals were used/salvage pieces from my favorite SH , and things I’d demoed.
> The unused relays are for the later stages of the project when I will tie it into the blower latch circuit to shut down the blower after the high limit is hit and the TDR times out in a minute.
> The wires on the upper right are labeled now, this pic is a couple weeks old.
> View attachment 168339
> View attachment 168340


Much better than the first one you posted many years ago. BUT I still see wire numbers missing, short wires and no prints.


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

joe-nwt said:


> Not picking on you or your project. Do you ever worry about something catastrophic happening and the lawyers dissecting your panel during the investigation even if it had nothing to do with it?


I have been out of my System Integrator business for 20 years, but still worry about this. 
Since my house fire I don't even have the original panel build prints and programs I did to show if a system has been modified since then. Lucky most of them are probably obsolete by now, I hope.


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

just the cowboy said:


> He only works out of the used parts and scrap bins , but does good with what he has.


I work out of the “gently used” parts pile as a challenge, and not necessarily out of penury. I get a real thrill using cast offs to make something useful, it’s honestly become part of my personality due to an upbringing of,
Use it up 
Wear it out 
Make do
Or do without 




just the cowboy said:


> Much better than the first one you posted many years ago. BUT I still see wire numbers missing, short wires and no prints.


The only wires not labeled are the white neutral, and the black hot. The ladder, yeah you got me.


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

460 Delta said:


> The only wires not labeled are the white neutral, and the black hot. The ladder, yeah you got me.


I don't see the numbers on the bottom of the red wires on the right that leave the panel, on the top yea.
But half is better than none till you have to disconnect.

Looks good Glenn


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

460 Delta said:


> The wires on the upper right are labeled now, this pic is a couple weeks old.
> View attachment 168339
> View attachment 168340





just the cowboy said:


> I don't see the numbers on the bottom of the red wires on the right that leave the panel, on the top yea.
> But half is better than none till you have to disconnect.
> 
> Looks good Glenn


It’s labeled as I noted, it really is.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

460 Delta said:


> This is my latest panel build. Everything but the wire and terminals were used/salvage pieces from my favorite SH , and things I’d demoed.
> The unused relays are for the later stages of the project when I will tie it into the blower latch circuit to shut down the blower after the high limit is hit and the TDR times out in a minute.
> The wires on the upper right are labeled now, this pic is a couple weeks old.


Nice work-- it almost looks like you know what you are doing... Did you have a diagram to follow or did you make your own?


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## Breakfasteatre (Sep 8, 2009)

460 Delta said:


> I work out of the “gently used” parts pile as a challenge, and not necessarily out of penury. I get a real thrill using cast offs to make something useful, it’s honestly become part of my personality due to an upbringing of,
> Use it up
> Wear it out
> Make do
> ...


I also really enjoy using old parts off of the shelf. Usually there is nothing wrong with them other than the form factor has changed slightly.


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Nice work-- it almost looks like you know what you are doing... Did you have a diagram to follow or did you make your own?


Unless it’s a really involved control scheme, I just make it up in my head, then build it with a few small corrections until it suits me. Then I’ll likely get around to drawing the ladder to match the build. 
I am waaay outside of the trade orthodoxy in doing it this way, but I was always in a time crunch and I built first drew later.
It drives most of the members here nuts the way I do things, especially @John Valdes. Sorry John.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

460 Delta said:


> Unless it’s a really involved control scheme, I just make it up in my head, then build it with a few small corrections until it suits me. Then I’ll likely get around to drawing the ladder to match the build.
> I am waaay outside of the trade orthodoxy in doing it this way, but I was always in a time crunch and I built first drew later.
> It drives most of the members here nuts the way I do things, especially @John Valdes. Sorry John.



Well it impressed me..


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

460 Delta said:


> Unless it’s a really involved control scheme, I just make it up in my head, then build it with a few small corrections until it suits me. Then I’ll likely get around to drawing the ladder to match the build.
> I am waaay outside of the trade orthodoxy in doing it this way, but I was always in a time crunch and I built first drew later.
> It drives most of the members here nuts the way I do things, especially @John Valdes. Sorry John.


Its your gig not mine Glenn. I get the push to get it done. And I have been pushed for time to.
For me things go smoother and easier making the drawing first. You see its how I was taught. "Nothing comes before the drawing". This way the build goes much faster and I make sure it works on paper before I take it to the build.
I'm not smart enough to wire up a control panel in mind as well. I guess thats the main reason.

Oh....many control builds where the builder is going to make his drawing after, the drawing never comes. So it becomes an albatross with zero documentation. That has been my experience.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

460 Delta said:


> He’s probably thinking of all the other panels and controls I’ve done with no numbers or ladder diagram.


I'm going by my experience where wire labels fall off, and to figure out where stuff goes you have to peel off Panduit covers and tug to trace wires. 460's panel is easy to follow wires and verify wire numbers and such. I'm used to working on stuff with no prints and sometimes wire numbers, mixed wire colors, etc, so when you can see everything and follow it with your eyes it is much easier to visualize what is going on.


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