# random afci tripping



## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

We have had zero problems with the combination arc fault breakers. Had a few of the non combo type give problems but just a few.


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## goooch (Oct 9, 2010)

i forgot to mention they are 15A seimens afcis


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## Texas (Oct 3, 2010)

I like to put a regular breaker between arc- fault breaker. I have had that cure the problem many times. Maybe just the fact that I'm changing it to a different pole in the panel. I dunno but it has worked for me.


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## elecpatsfan (Oct 1, 2010)

goooch said:


> hello. new to this forum, or any forum for that matter. not that great with computers or too familiar with how forums work so please help me out and let me know if im obviously not getting something or doing something wrong.
> 
> anyways, i have been getting service calls lately on arc fault breakers tripping that we have installed in the new houses we have wired. pretty much every home owner says the same thing, that the breaker will trip randomly, whether it be once a week or once a month or whatever, even when they are not home or not even in the room that the arc fault is protecting and it will randomly trip. the only thing they usually have plugged in is an alarm clock and/or their tv. my first plan of action everytime is replace the arc fault breaker and have them let my office know if the problem continues, and 95 percent of the time thats the end of it and i never hear from them again.
> 
> ...


Yeah I'm pretty sick of these stupid breakers- nuisance tripping, overly sensative, over-priced. You've got to wonder if this arc-fault requirement has something to do with lobbyists greasing palms. At forty bucks a pop, companys are making a lot of money from this. I just hope all of this is truly necessary and saving lives.


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## one2question (Sep 2, 2010)

I have had the problems to. First I check the load because to much inrush like a vacuum will trip them especialy a 15amp. most vaccuums are 10-12.5 amps (that I come across) add the light there you go not counting the 1 or 3 amps being drawn from other stuff. I have came across certain pieces of equipment that will trip them also, but this was mostly when they where first introduced. Or the home owner does not turn things off before they unplug and it sees the load arc. I question the home owners to get a pattern and 99% of the time they tell you what they have been doing to cause it, unknowing.


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## 76nemo (Aug 13, 2008)

one2question said:


> I have had the problems to. First I check the load because to much inrush like a vacuum will trip them especialy a 15amp. most vaccuums are 10-12.5 amps (that I come across) add the light there you go not counting the 1 or 3 amps being drawn from other stuff. I have came across certain pieces of equipment that will trip them also, but this was mostly when they where first introduced. Or the home owner does not turn things off before they unplug and it sees the load arc. I question the home owners to get a pattern and 99% of the time they tell you what they have been doing to cause it, unknowing.


 
Any normal inrush won't trip AFCI's. Until we as serviceman will know at what curve an AFCI will trip on depending on the protective device will be left in linger. Right now, as a whole, it's hard to come to conclusion with different devices. You have a WHOLE bunch of people saying AFCI protection is BS. Now mind you, we have people in our trade pushing them very hard. There are some lines drawn basically saying they are saving lives. I say they are correct in some, (very small), scenario's. but I will also say the purpose of AFCI protection is very nill in proper installation.


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## BritBurk479 (Oct 3, 2010)

Pluging things in that are on causes an arc in the device which could trip the arc fault.


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## kbsparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Check for surge-protected power strips, such as one might find with computers or entertainment systems. Some of those power strips will shunt surges to ground, tripping out GFI units and AFI breakers.

Also, be advised that older AFI breakers are basically junk, and replacing `em with new units can solve most problems related to the junk/earlier models out there.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

kbsparky said:


> Check for surge-protected power strips, such as one might find with computers or entertainment systems. Some of those power strips will shunt surges to ground, tripping out GFI units and AFI breakers.
> 
> Also, be advised that older AFI breakers are basically junk, and replacing `em with new units can solve most problems related to the junk/earlier models out there.


they have not perfected them yet


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

We haven't had any issues in the last several years. Maybe its the brand or the installs themselves? IDK but we put in a lot of them and other than one that tripped on her new vac but not her old one no problems what so ever.:001_huh:


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

I still think they are an unnecessary cost for the most part IMO.


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## elecpatsfan (Oct 1, 2010)

jwjrw said:


> We haven't had any issues in the last several years. Maybe its the brand or the installs themselves? IDK but we put in a lot of them and other than one that tripped on her new vac but not her old one no problems what so ever.:001_huh:


 
you've had luck with them so far, but it's only a matter of time before your customer calls you Saturday ten o'clock at night trying to host a dinner party and her lights go out. Some homeowners still can't seem to figure out how to reset a breaker (flip all the way off, then back on) no matter how you explain it on the phone. Yes, I know you can charge for the service call but sometimes you really don't feel like going. 

I really hope this arc-fault crap is just fad but I have a feeling it's here to stay. These code makers in their suits and ties have all these brilliant ideas about what we should be doing. Its real easy for them because there not the ones that have to do it.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

elecpatsfan said:


> you've had luck with them so far, but it's only a matter of time before your customer calls you Saturday ten o'clock at night trying to host a dinner party and her lights go out. Some homeowners still can't seem to figure out how to reset a breaker (flip all the way off, then back on) no matter how you explain it on the phone. Yes, I know you can charge for the service call but sometimes you really don't feel like going. .





I haven't had "luck" with them. We have been putting them in since 2005. How long should I wait? We had a hand full of the old non combo types that would trip. We seperated the wires in the boxes on that circuit and always found if the  neutral was too close to the ground it would somehow make it trip. It could of been a nick in the insulation of the neutral and the ground being close to it. IDK.... If you are having issuse it most likely has to do with your install or some brand other than CH.






elecpatsfan said:


> I really hope this arc-fault crap is just fad but I have a feeling it's here to stay. These code makers in their suits and ties have all these brilliant ideas about what we should be doing. Its real easy for them because there not the ones that have to do it.




I used to hate them but now I don't even think about them. We make money on material sales too.


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## goooch (Oct 9, 2010)

> I like to put a regular breaker between arc- fault breaker. I have had that cure the problem many times. Maybe just the fact that I'm changing it to a different pole in the panel. I dunno but it has worked for me


this is interesting. so you do this when you install the breakers at rough in or this is just a way to help solve the problem if youre having one?


something that crossed my mind the other day too is that some of these guys in my company twist together the black and white wires in the panel, not real tight, but just to make it easier to not mix the wires up when hooking them up into these arc faults. does anyone think that something like this could cause an arc fault to trip every so often?


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## redseal (Sep 22, 2010)

Dont put them in untill the trim carpenters and every one else with a saw or compressor is done on the job. Stack a reg breaker between each arc in the panel, as they each have a CT in them and one by the other can trip the other one with the magnetic field induced.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Slight change of conversation, but I was in my garage this morning and smelled rubber burning. Turned out...I had a 18 inch long #12 gauge cord with three plugs (molded). Connected, was a refrigerator a central vacuum and something else. The middle plug was smoldering, apparently from a loose connection. There ended up being a lot of smoke and had it been close to something combustible I'm sure it would have been bad. My house does not have AFCI's, but they would have tripped, I'm sure.


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## goooch (Oct 9, 2010)

redseal said:


> Dont put them in untill the trim carpenters and every one else with a saw or compressor is done on the job. Stack a reg breaker between each arc in the panel, as they each have a CT in them and one by the other can trip the other one with the magnetic field induced.


thanks for the advice. appreciate it.


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## one2question (Sep 2, 2010)

76nemo said:


> Any normal inrush won't trip AFCI's. Until we as serviceman will know at what curve an AFCI will trip on depending on the protective device will be left in linger. Right now, as a whole, it's hard to come to conclusion with different devices. You have a WHOLE bunch of people saying AFCI protection is BS. Now mind you, we have people in our trade pushing them very hard. There are some lines drawn basically saying they are saving lives. I say they are correct in some, (very small), scenario's. but I will also say the purpose of AFCI protection is very nill in proper installation.


I will have to disagree. Been busy or i would of responded earlier. The sensitivity is not all the same. Disney had a major problem and had the manufactures come out to resolve the issue. This was back in 2002 when NEC removed the word "receptacle" and left "outlet". The breakers where tripping with in load curves. The arcing of the inrush current of fan motors and the arcing of light switches where the cause. :thumbup: Matter of fact 
"ELECTRICAL COMMISSION NEWS 
Volume 1– 2010 
*AFCI Breakers *by Darwin Jones – District 7 EI 
February 2010 
　
 
High inrush current of high ampacity motors such as high amp vacuum cleaners. Remember this is still a circuit breaker. A 12-amp vacuum cleaner with a high inrush current on a 15-amp circuit may trip any breaker "

I could probably find an article in every state from an electrical committee, with regaurds to inrush current from vaccums tripping AFCI breakers.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

I can make a convert out of just about any resi electrician to the value of ark fault circuit breakers if they will let me cut thru an energized romex cable using their ***** for the experiment. I can hand em back a perfectly good tool.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

macmikeman said:


> I can make a convert out of just about any resi electrician to the value of ark fault circuit breakers if they will _let me cut thru an energized romex cable using their ***** for the experiment._ I can hand em back a perfectly good tool.


OSHA, they're coming for you. :laughing: Great experiment though.


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## one2question (Sep 2, 2010)

I work with a guy who alway lit his smokes with a receptacle. Can't have a GFI or AFCI to do that.


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## electricalperson (Jan 11, 2008)

check for neutrals of different circuits tied together or touching, also check for neutral to grounds touching


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Texas said:


> I like to put a regular breaker between arc- fault breaker. I have had that cure the problem many times. Maybe just the fact that I'm changing it to a different pole in the panel. I dunno but it has worked for me.


 
I took a continuing ed class, and the instructor told us to never stack 2 AFCI's on top of each other, always put a regular breaker inbetween.




jwjrw said:


> We have had zero problems with the combination arc fault breakers. Had a few of the non combo type give problems but just a few.


 
Ditto




goooch said:


> hello. new to this forum, or any forum for that matter. not that great with computers or too familiar with how forums work so please help me out and let me know if im obviously not getting something or doing something wrong.
> 
> anyways, i have been getting service calls lately on arc fault breakers tripping that we have installed in the new houses we have wired. pretty much every home owner says the same thing, that the breaker will trip randomly, whether it be once a week or once a month or whatever, even when they are not home or not even in the room that the arc fault is protecting and it will randomly trip. the only thing they usually have plugged in is an alarm clock and/or their tv. my first plan of action everytime is replace the arc fault breaker and have them let my office know if the problem continues, and 95 percent of the time thats the end of it and i never hear from them again.
> 
> ...


 
Wire more carefully, and you don't need an arc fault for a rough in inspection.


electricalperson said:


> check for neutrals of different circuits tied together or touching, also check for neutral to grounds touching


 
That's my guess:thumbsup:


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