# "Square FT pricing"



## alambre (Jan 29, 2012)

If you want to work for daily wages do sq ft pricing.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

lightningboltsarefun said:


> If you have done this or know of electricians who do this to estimate jobs! I'm just looking for info on $/square FT. ($3-4 per square FT seems to be avg from what I hear? Some are in the range of $6-9??) Any suggestions are welcomed! I'm currently biding a 3500 sq FT multi-family dwelling and I'm just trying to get an idea of what other guys do to estimate similar jobs and when they decide to not use this as a way of estimating and why. I also have to remove knob and tube wiring, the dwelling is about 70% gutted and I'm trying to get the homeowner onboard with gutting everything so i have full access to rewiring properly. Thank you for any replys!


First you've got to know what your costs are,look *here* print out that form and do your calulations fill in the blanks.

Take a count of all of your items 49 receptacles 57 can lights 12 3way switches figure how many feet of wire you'll need and how long on average each task will take including start up and break down,permit fee,and at least 4 hours for setting up inspections and being on site for such,ad that all up and you should have a grand total in dollars,take that number and divide it by the sqft that's your sqft price for that job,,,but each job is different so,to make good money you must do the calculations each time.


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## lightningboltsarefun (Dec 26, 2013)

I'm not seeing the form ?


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## lightningboltsarefun (Dec 26, 2013)

Nevermind I couldnt pull the page up on my phone, thx!


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

lightningboltsarefun said:


> I'm not seeing the form ?


Go to post 6 on that thread.

Also view the forum on the full site in your phones browser,when the pop up widow for the app shows press no.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Click here to view the full site.

http://www.electriciantalk.com



.


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## lightningboltsarefun (Dec 26, 2013)

alambre said:


> If you want to work for daily wages do sq ft pricing.


Did you mean " If you don't want to work for daily wages do sq ft pricing"??


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## kbsparky (Sep 20, 2007)

alambre said:


> If you want to work for daily wages do sq ft pricing.


If you want to work for less than nothing, then by all means.

I would never price out a job by the square foot. At those prices, anyways.... :whistling2:


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## lightningboltsarefun (Dec 26, 2013)

kbsparky said:


> If you want to work for less than nothing, then by all means.
> 
> I would never price out a job by the square foot. At those prices, anyways.... :whistling2:


So lets say a guy has a 3500 sq ft 2 family house, gutted and wants to have the old knob and tube throughout the walls removed and all new wiring installed to replace it. You don't think 3500 sq ft by lets say $4/sq ft totaling $14000 is enough to charge??? Now the service needs no work at all. Knob and tube is already ripped out in the basement. Is 14k a low number for this? Price also does Not count lighting fixtures or extras


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

lightningboltsarefun said:


> Did you mean " If you don't want to work for daily wages do sq ft pricing"??


Sqft pricing is simply a race to the bottom.

When a GC asks you what is your hourly rate,or how much per sqft,or even per opening,OR T&M he is really telling you he wants to control your prices to the point that you're working for what your wages would be if you we're working for an EC.

Don't do that,give him a grand total price for the full job,what you make per hour is not his business unless he's hiring you as an employee.

Let's say you tell him I'll charge you $90 an hour,how much are you going to have left after all of your business expenses and ALL of the taxes,once you do all of your calculations and you pay the expenses and taxes what you've got left is your hourly rate,and that is only if you beat the clock 100% of the time!you should know that does not happen much.


For service work ad up all of your expenses for the year and divide that by 1,000 billable hours.

For new construction and remodel work use 1,500 billable hours.

You're in business to make money not to support a GC.


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## FrunkSlammer (Aug 31, 2013)

Oh and now that we've agreed to $3/sq ft... 

The fine print states garage, crawl space, attic, balconies, decks, porches, exterior of house and landscaping are included in that house square foot contract and this house has a lot of garage, exterior and landscape work to get done, you better crew up.


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## daveEM (Nov 18, 2012)

lightningboltsarefun said:


> So lets say a guy has a 3500 sq ft 2 family house, gutted and wants to have the old knob and tube throughout the walls removed and all new wiring installed to replace it. You don't think 3500 sq ft by lets say $4/sq ft totaling $14000 is enough to charge??? Now the service needs no work at all. Knob and tube is already ripped out in the basement. Is 14k a low number for this? Price also does Not count lighting fixtures or extras


Price is ok for my area. Sometimes you will want to work and there is competition. In an ideal world you do what the guys said here. They however live in fantasy land.

The average resi world is a nightmare. You give that GC a price of $4 a sq foot and he will tell you he has a price for $3.00.

The $3 guy is using 3 helpers making $10 an hour and he goes through them like crazy. He wires 300 houses a year and does OK.

Anyway it's experience. After you wire 20, 50 or so jobber houses, less than 1500 sq.ft. you know your cost. You can sq. ft. them. 

You can't make $70 an hour wiring a house by yourself unless you are very, very fast.

*Edit:* Also there is no loyalty. All GC are out for themselves. You can wire a 100 houses for a guy. A new electrician come along for 13 cents a sq ft less you are gone. The GC wants an inspection so he can drywall.


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## The_Modifier (Oct 24, 2009)

daveEM said:


> All GC are out for themselves.


EXACTLY THIS!:thumbsup:


You are* in *business.

Tip: Stop thinking as you are the business. The business has needs much like a small child. The Business needs growth in order to survive, it's food is money to survive the non working times, including the non billable hours.

Maybe ask Harry to send you a link to the software he uses.:thumbsup:


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

How much is 1 Sq. Ft. of hi-hat?


Anyone?


Bueller?
Bueller?


:laughing:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

daveEM said:


> .......... You can wire a 100 houses for a guy. A new electrician come along for 13 cents _for a total house_ less you are gone. ......



Fify. :whistling2:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Celtic said:


> How much is 1 Sq. Ft. of hi-hat?
> 
> 
> Anyone?
> ...



I still have yet to hear how many square feet are in a 200a service.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

480sparky said:


> I still have yet to hear how many square feet are in a 200a service.



I figure we can work up to that...like a load calculation...
1 - 15A recept = ___________ sq ft. = $____.___
1 - 15A switch = ___________ sq ft. = $____.___
1 - 20A recept = ___________ sq ft. = $____.___
1 - 30A recept = ___________ sq ft. = $____.___


...and so on.
Eventually, you can just add the sq.ft up and determine the service size needed and also the selling price :thumbsup:


I should make a spreadsheet :whistling2:


:laughing:


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

Wait you forgot to add up the amps, now is it $10 an amp or $13:whistling2:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Celtic said:


> I figure we can work up to that...like a load calculation...
> 1 - 15A recept = ___________ sq ft. = $____.___
> 1 - 15A switch = ___________ sq ft. = $____.___
> 1 - 20A recept = ___________ sq ft. = $____.___
> ...



You missed the point. A 200a service costs the same regardless of the square footage of the dwelling.

A 200a service is the same whether the house is 1500 ft², 2000 ft² or 2500 ft².


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## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

I don't get the whole price per square foot thing. How are things such as trims (cheapest VS LED), under cabinet lighting styles, customer supplied fixture installations accounted for?

Wouldn't 3 small rooms cost more to wire than one large room equaling the same square footage?

At face value, it seems that pricing by the foot is simply asking...no begging for problems.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Square-foot pricing is a remnant of the 1950s and 1960s. That's when most housing was cookie-cutter tracts, and every house got CMU foundations, hardboard siding, 15-year shingles, single-pane double-hung windows, Formica countertops, shag carpeting, wood paneling, seafoam green appliances, hollow-core doors, a round 3-bulb light fixture in the kitchen and open-top 2-bulb square bug-catchers everywhere else. A builder could easily whip out a finished house (stake-out to move-in) in 2 months. 

Today, 2 months is the _lead time_ for most items in a home (the $800 kitchen faucet, the solid oak doors, the hand-rubbed bamboo floor, the 128-LED fixture for the entryway, etc).


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

480sparky said:


> Today, 2 months is the _lead time_ for most items in a home (the $800 kitchen faucet, the solid oak doors, the hand-rubbed bamboo floor, the 128-LED fixture for the entryway, etc).


Not for tract or spec houses. :no:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

MTW said:


> Not for tract or spec houses. :no:


Rare is the home today that doesn't have something that's not in stock locally.... even cookie-cutters.


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

480sparky said:


> Rare is the home today that doesn't have something that's not in stock locally.... even cookie-cutters.


I usually agree with you , but this one I'am gonna have to "beg to differ".


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

At the end of the day the smaller the house the less room for any profit. I left that market years ago and never looked back.....drill holes all day and yank wire, stand ankle deep in mud,snow or get rained on. Freeze or roast don't matter what we are in these are the conditions, why do it for peanuts....:no: beat the numbers to dirt they are just not there for me.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

480sparky said:


> You missed the point.


No I did not...



480sparky said:


> A 200a service costs the same regardless of the square footage of the dwelling.


No it does not...



480sparky said:


> A 200a service is the same whether the house is 1500 ft², 2000 ft² or 2500 ft².


Nope again.


A 200A service will not cost the same on every home...
ie.
Bricked home vs siding
1500 sq ft Ranch vs. 1500 sq.ft multi story
SE vs conduit

etc.


Following your logic that every 200A service cost the same...
All 1500 sq. ft homes cost the same..
All 2000 sq. ft homes cost the same..
All 2500 sq. ft homes cost the same..

...which we all know is not true. :no:


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## Hack Work (Dec 29, 2013)

Square foot pricing is awesome.


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## Hack Work (Dec 29, 2013)

Celtic said:


> A 200A service will not cost the same on every home...
> ie.


He didn't say that it "costs the same on every home".

He said that "A 200a service costs the same regardless of the square footage of the dwelling."

He is correct. Those other variables you brought up (Bricked home vs siding, 1500 sq ft Ranch vs. 1500 sq.ft multi story, SE vs conduit) have nothing to do with the square footage.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

There are too many variables where square ft. pricing is a smart way to go... IMO...

You are much better off having a naster sheet listing ALL the items you would wire and install in a new house...

You can't make a mistake by having every item listed on a sheet of paper and just add a price amount to it....

How come the guys pricing commercial work don't ever use sq. ft. pricing.. because they would lose their shirt... :thumbsup:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Celtic said:


> No I did not...
> 
> 
> No it does not...
> ...


You are missing the* painfully obvious.*

A 200a 40-space panel costs the same whether it goes into a 1500 ft² home, a 2000 ft² home or a 2500 ft². Does it not?

2/0 wire costs the same per foot, whether it goes into a 1500 ft² home, a 2000 ft² home or a 2500 ft². Does it not?

A ground rod cost the same, whether it goes into a 1500 ft² home, a 2000 ft² home or a 2500 ft². Does it not?

A meter socket cost the same, whether it goes on a 1500 ft² home, a 2000 ft² home or a 2500 ft². Does it not?

A 2" weatherhead costs the same, whether it goes on a 1500 ft² home, a 2000 ft² home or a 2500 ft². Does it not?




What can't you understand about that? Or does your supply house ask what size house it's going into before you pay for it?





Also, what does brick v. siding have to do with the square footage of a home?



So, how many square feet are in the home this panel serves?:











or this one?:











or this one?:











What about this one?:


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## FrunkSlammer (Aug 31, 2013)

Sq ft only works if you know the builder and it's the same house over and over. 

While you guys are just barely cutting a profit off these 5000+sqft houses, good luck when the builders start building eco energy 1800sqft houses and demand you to keep your same price per sqft.


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## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

FrunkSlammer said:


> Sq ft only works if you know the builder and it's the same house over and over.
> 
> While you guys are just barely cutting a profit off these 5000+sqft houses, good luck when the builders start building eco energy 1800sqft houses and demand you to keep your same price per sqft.


If it's the same house over and over, what is the purpose of square foot pricing. Wouldn't it just be a price?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Deep Cover said:


> If it's the same house over and over, what is the purpose of square foot pricing. Wouldn't it just be a price?



It can work in this case, over a small spread of house sizes. Say, 1750 to 2250 ft². But again, that's conditional on everything else being the same.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

480sparky said:


> You are missing the* painfully obvious.*


In your world...every installation is exactly the same?
Awesome :thumbsup:



480sparky said:


> A 200a 40-space panel costs the same whether it goes into a 1500 ft² home, a 2000 ft² home or a 2500 ft². Does it not?


Does it?
A Murray costs the same as a QO?
3R same price too?
Flush or surface mount exactly the same for material and labor also?
Awesome



480sparky said:


> 2/0 wire costs the same per foot, whether it goes into a 1500 ft² home, a 2000 ft² home or a 2500 ft². Does it not?


Per foot for material, sure...
..but does every home require the same length?
..are we doing this with AL cable assembly or CU single conductors?
Does it cost the same to install SE as it does to pull conductors through conduit?

OH or UG?



480sparky said:


> A ground rod cost the same, whether it goes into a 1500 ft² home, a 2000 ft² home or a 2500 ft². Does it not?
> 
> A meter socket cost the same, whether it goes on a 1500 ft² home, a 2000 ft² home or a 2500 ft². Does it not?


Hurray...a couple of items cost the same....
You totally proved your point...... :thumbup:


...to somebody.



480sparky said:


> A 2" weatherhead costs the same, whether it goes on a 1500 ft² home, a 2000 ft² home or a 2500 ft². Does it not?


I didn't know an SE head cost the same as a PVC head as an EMT head.
Do we use a weatherhead for a UG service?
You really have this 'lectrical contracting thing perfected




480sparky said:


> What can't you understand about that?


I can't understand that you believe every home requires the same amount and type of material :whistling2:



480sparky said:


> Or does your supply house ask what size house it's going into before you pay for it?






480sparky said:


> Also, what does brick v. siding have to do with the square footage of a home?


It has to do with installation techniques which affect price.


Why the hostility?
Not get what was your Christmas list? :laughing:


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## Hack Work (Dec 29, 2013)

Wow, Celtic, you get worse and worse every week.

You are so far off base...


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## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

It's kind of funny...

One of you is arguing that the service installation isn't dependent on the size.

One of you is arguing that the cost of the installation is dependent on a number of factors.

Both of which are correct, and both are arguments against square footage pricing.


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## Hack Work (Dec 29, 2013)

Deep Cover said:


> It's kind of funny...
> 
> One of you is arguing that the service installation isn't dependent on the size.
> 
> ...


Celtic is imagining that 480 said something that he didn't.

The service costs the same regardless of the square footage of the house, just like 480 said.


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## chris.b (Jan 28, 2013)

Where is Mahlere when you need hiim?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Celtic said:


> ...............I can't understand that you believe every home requires the same amount and type of material :whistling2:
> .....



Um......



Where did I say that? :001_huh:

























Let's try this:


You wire a house.


You install a 200a panel in said house.



Does the cost of that 200a panel differ depending on the square footage of the house? Does your SH ask for the square footage of the house before they bill your account? If so, does a larger home get a cheaper price for the panel, or do smaller homes get the price break?

Does Home Depot have multiple bin labels in their stores, showing different prices for owners of different size homes? Do you need to fill out a questionaire about all the specifics of a home (brick v. hardboard, etc) when you buy material for it?






Let's take this overhead service:











See the weather head?

How much does one cost you?

Does it cost any different if the house that's in the photo is 100 ft² or 10,000 ft²?





See the meter socket?

Does it cost any different if the house that's in the photo is 100 ft² or 10,000 ft²?


Same goes for the mast clamp, the 2" rigid, the straps, the LB, the compression fittings, the concrete anchors, the witch's hat, the meter hub, the 2" EMT, the ground rods, the ground rod clamps, etc. etc. etc. Same goes for the labor. The cost of labor to drill through the roof, make the hole in the brick, install anchors in the concrete, install the mast & witch's hat, push the service conductors up through the mast, terminate them, install the ground rods & GEC, ..... 



They will cost you the same, whether the house that's in the photo 100 ft² or 10,000 ft².








If not, perhaps you can tell me why they would. :001_huh: 'Cuz I sure can't see how.


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

480....on a different note..(pictures of this job you posted)...is that a gas meter in that window well????


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## Hack Work (Dec 29, 2013)

RGH said:


> 480....on a different note..(pictures of this job you posted)...is that a gas meter in that window well????


I was gonna say sump pump, but that definitely looks like a regulator to me


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

RGH said:


> 480....on a different note..(pictures of this job you posted)...is that a gas meter in that window well????


Yes.


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

"Well" that's a new one for me....IDK if that would fly here..sure is different.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

RGH said:


> "Well" that's a new one for me....IDK if that would fly here..sure is different.


I tend not to worry much about what a plumber did 40 years ago.


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