# What's not afci/gfci protected anymore in a US dwelling?



## HertzHound (Jan 22, 2019)

Here is a clip from the NJ amendments. 

iii. In Section 210.12(A), entitled "Arc-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection. Dwelling Units," "kitchens" and "laundry areas" shall be deleted.
iv. Section 210.12(B), entitled "Branch Circuit Extensions or Modifications - Dwelling Units," is deleted in its entirety.

Having to replace a receptacle with AFCI when changing devices?

i. Section 406.4(D)(4), entitled "Arc-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection," is deleted in its entirety.

Romex above a drop ceiling!

ii. Section 334.12(A)(2) is deleted in its entirety.

Here’s a few more. 

3. Chapter 2 of the electrical subcode, entitled "Wiring and Protection," is amended as follows:
i. Section 210.8(A)(2) and (5) of Article 210, entitled Branch Circuits, is deleted; it is replaced by Section 210.8(A)(2) and (5) and the exceptions in the National Electrical Code 2005 as follows:
"210.8(A)(2) - Garages, and also accessory buildings that have a floor located at or below grade level not intended as habitable rooms and limited to storage areas, work areas, and areas of similar use.
Exception No. 1 to (2) - Receptacles that are not readily accessible.
Exception No. 2 to (2) - A single receptacle or a duplex receptacle for two appliances located within dedicated space for each appliance that, in normal use, is not easily moved from one place to another and that is cord-and-plug connected in accordance with 400.7(A)(6), (A)7, or (A)(8).
Receptacles installed under the exceptions to 210.8(A)(2) shall not be considered as meeting the requirements of 210.52(G).
210.8(A)(5) - Unfinished basements: For purposes of this section, unfinished basements are defined as portions or areas of the basement not intended as habitable rooms and limited to storage areas, work areas, and the like.
Exception No. 1 to (5) - Receptacles that are not readily accessible.
Exception No. 2 to (5) - A single receptacle or a duplex receptacle for two appliances located within dedicated space for each appliance that, in normal use, is not easily moved from one place to another and that is cord-and-plug connected in accordance with 400.7(A)(6), (A)7, or (A)(8).
Exception No. 3 to (5) - A receptacle supplying only a permanently installed fire alarm or burglar alarm system shall not be required to have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

NC has heavily amended the Arc Fault codes. I’m very grateful for this.

Its required for all the general use lighting and receptacle circuits inside the house. And the dining room. Nothing else, and none of the dedicated circuits like kitchen s, bathrooms, garages, dishwasher, ect. No 240v circuits are required either. Thank goodness!!

Whoever’s in charge of these new codes has absolutely lost their freaking mind.


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

I am seriously glad I let my license lapse.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

oldsparky52 said:


> I am seriously glad I let my license lapse.


That’s too bad. In a different world, I would’ve drove to the beach and done a couple gas stations and marinas with you. 

Just for the experience.


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## blueheels2 (Apr 22, 2009)

MHElectric said:


> NC has heavily amended the Arc Fault codes. I’m very grateful for this.
> 
> Its required for all the general use lighting and receptacle circuits inside the house. And the dining room. Nothing else, and none of the dedicated circuits like kitchen s, bathrooms, garages, dishwasher, ect. No 240v circuits are required either. Thank goodness!!
> 
> Whoever’s in charge of these new codes has absolutely lost their freaking mind.


I’m going to have to read those. Didn’t realize they would be so lax in fact I expected them to approve all of the ridiculousness. Makes me think about a job I did not too long ago adding a dedicated gas stove receptacle. Probably didn’t need an afci but I put one on there.


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## HertzHound (Jan 22, 2019)

oldsparky52 said:


> I am seriously glad I let my license lapse.


Yeah, mine is lapsed also. I have to get on that before I get fined. I took all the updates months ago. I just never sent in the paperwork and money before it expired. The contractors (masters) license lapsing isn’t really a big deal. But I have a Buisness permit that I have to tell them I’m not renewing. I haven’t paid the insurance in six months, so it’s been canceled for a while. That’s the one they will probably screw me on if I don’t send back the seal and a letter. I haven’t used it in two years, no sense in keeping it going.


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

HertzHound said:


> Yeah, mine is lapsed also. I have to get on that before I get fined. I took all the updates months ago. I just never sent in the paperwork and money before it expired. The contractors (masters) license lapsing isn’t really a big deal. But I have a Buisness permit that I have to tell them I’m not renewing. I haven’t paid the insurance in six months, so it’s been canceled for a while. That’s the one they will probably screw me on if I don’t send back the seal and a letter. I haven’t used it in two years, no sense in keeping it going.


Yes! Close it all out properly.

I disbanded or what ever it was called my LLC then did not renew my insurance nor the state contractors license. Now, if I want to get it back I have to make up the missed continuing education classes, pay all the missed years license fees AND... show 500 hours of work documentation. That would be the hard one. 

Bottom line, I'm out.


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## 210860 (Apr 12, 2021)

Can you Carolina guys, take your CEU's to update your license online now ? 

Or do you have to attend a class, in person (?)


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

blueheels2 said:


> I’m going to have to read those. Didn’t realize they would be so lax in fact I expected them to approve all of the ridiculousness. Makes me think about a job I did not too long ago adding a dedicated gas stove receptacle. Probably didn’t need an afci but I put one on there.


Ive got a code class coming up soon, and I’ll report back on whats is in store for us come October.

As far as what I posted above - that is what is the current code for NC. This changes in October


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

Dell3c said:


> Can you Carolina guys, take your CEU's to update your license online now ?
> 
> Or do you have to attend a class, in person (?)


8 hours per year, 4 may be on line, 4 must be in person

I used to go to an 8 hour course and they usually had a discounted 8 hour on line course to go with it. Then you are good for 2 years.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

Around here, just about everything in resi is required to have AFCIs. 

A 30 amp travel trailer outlet wouldn't need it nor would a point of use water heater. 

I can't think of anything else though.


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## getting old (Mar 26, 2021)

micromind said:


> Around here, just about everything in resi is required to have AFCIs.
> 
> A 30 amp travel trailer outlet wouldn't need it nor would a point of use water heater.
> 
> I can't think of anything else though.


Sounds like it is in Massachusetts. Change a old fried plug anywhere in the house? New arc fault breaker needed. Fun on them old farm houses. 

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

blueheels2 said:


> I’m going to have to read those. Didn’t realize they would be so lax in fact I expected them to approve all of the ridiculousness. Makes me think about a job I did not too long ago adding a dedicated gas stove receptacle. Probably didn’t need an afci but I put one on there.


Dude, I’ll try and post a new thread later tonight for all the NC guys on what some of the 2020 code changes are. Wow! I didn’t think it was going to be so many. Thankfully there are a bunch of amendments, but a lot of stuff is still changing.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

oldsparky52 said:


> I am seriously glad I let my license lapse.


Thought you might be interested in this - They changed some stuff in the marinas code section. Specifically about increased GFI protection. I think it has to do with the feeders and the wording got changed around the requirements on dwelling unit boat docks.

I honestly don’t know much about that, so I was struggling to understand everything that the instructor was going over.


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

I found this. https://www.ncbeec.org/wp-content/u...2020-North-Carolina-State-Electrical-Code.pdf


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

MHElectric said:


> NC has heavily amended the Arc Fault codes. I’m very grateful for this.
> 
> Its required for all the general use lighting and receptacle circuits inside the house. And the dining room. Nothing else, and none of the dedicated circuits like kitchen s, bathrooms, garages, dishwasher, ect. No 240v circuits are required either. Thank goodness!!
> 
> Whoever’s in charge of these new codes has absolutely lost their freaking mind.


If the amendments get accepted that will change. There are no amendments to afci. BTW, the Rules Committee rejected the 2020 NEC so the Oct 1 date to start using the 2020 will likely be amended.


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## 210860 (Apr 12, 2021)

oldsparky52 said:


> 8 hours per year, 4 may be on line, 4 must be in person
> 
> I used to go to an 8 hour course and they usually had a discounted 8 hour on line course to go with it. Then you are good for 2 years.


I seem to remember that N. Carolina required a certain amount of in-person CEU's but wasn't sure, it's been a while.
Here in Washington, you can attend classrooms also. But also having the option to take entire amount required CEU's online for a price. 

There's an online service called "Pelco" that costs $99.00 dollars, acceptable to WA State. It's generally more cost-efficient using, while never leaving comfort of your home.


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

micromind said:


> Around here, just about everything in resi is required to have AFCIs.
> 
> A 30 amp travel trailer outlet wouldn't need it nor would a point of use water heater.
> 
> I can't think of anything else though.


Do baseboard heaters require afci breakers?


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

460 Delta said:


> Do baseboard heaters require afci breakers?


Actually, I'm not sure but I've heard they are not legal to install in Nevada. 

I heard they weren't...........


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## zoltan (Mar 15, 2010)

micromind said:


> Actually, I'm not sure but I've heard they are not legal to install in Nevada.
> 
> I heard they weren't...........


What is not legal to install in NV- BB heaters or BB heaters w/AFCI breakers?


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

zoltan said:


> What is not legal to install in NV- BB heaters or BB heaters w/AFCI breakers?


BB heaters are not legal because of energy codes. 

Wall-mount fan-forced heaters are still ok though.


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

micromind said:


> BB heaters are not legal because of energy codes.
> 
> Wall-mount fan-forced heaters are still ok though.


Resistance heat is resistance heat whether it’s a Cadet heater or a baseboard heater, what’s the rationale?


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

460 Delta said:


> Resistance heat is resistance heat whether it’s a Cadet heater or a baseboard heater, what’s the rationale?


There isn't any but on the other hand, there isn't much rationale to the majority of energy codes............

Usually, it's some sort of government jugbutt thinking he is singlehandedly saving the planet.


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

micromind said:


> There isn't any but on the other hand, there isn't much rationale to the majority of energy codes............
> 
> Usually, it's some sort of government jugbutt thinking he is singlehandedly saving the planet.


Unfortunately you’re right.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

Yikes, no forced heat sources???!!!!

That is some ridiculous nonsense right there!! What about in metal warehouses and buildings? Are you guys not allowed to use those metal space heaters that hang in the corners?


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

MHElectric said:


> Yikes, no forced heat sources???!!!!
> 
> That is some ridiculous nonsense right there!! What about in metal warehouses and buildings? Are you guys not allowed to use those metal space heaters that hang in the corners?


Forced air is ok, just not baseboard, plus I believe (though I have not actually seen) that it's in the resi energy code.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

micromind said:


> Forced air is ok, just not baseboard, plus I believe (though I have not actually seen) that it's in the resi energy code.


Are you allowed to use those Cadet Heaters? They are 12x14 or so and are made for room additions, bathrooms, basements, ect?


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

MHElectric said:


> Are you allowed to use those Cadet Heaters? They are 12x14 or so and are made for room additions, bathrooms, basements, ect?


Yes we are. 

Usually they're not the main source of heat for a whole house. 

There are very few basements around here, usually they're in bathrooms or other rooms to prevent freezing.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

Quite a few years ago, one summer, the Reno area was right on the verge of rolling blackouts. Of course, no one wants this........so the legislature, in its infinite wisdom, enacted several laws concerning energy. 

One of them was to outlaw baseboard heaters......yes, we all know these are not operating in the summer but remember, this is the legislature.........

They also did some other stuff that was actually pretty good. One was to outlaw all zoning regulations for rooftop solar installations. Even HOAs have nothing to say about them. 

Another was to repeal their laws the did not allow the PUCO (there's only one) to own generating plants. This freed up the restriction for the PUCO to purchase power on the open market and allowed them to generate their own.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

Was that for the better or worse?


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

MHElectric said:


> Was that for the better or worse?


I don't think that outlawing BB heaters made much difference.

Allowing the PUCO to own generating plants turned out pretty good, there's a good-sized natural gas plant (used to be coal but they converted most fit to NG) that can support a good part of Reno (1,000 MW, if I remember) plus another one about 150 miles north. With both these plants running at 100% (they usually can) they actually export power. 

When the PUCO couldn't own them, they sent most of their power to California so they had to but power on the open market. That is, of course, more $$$ than owning their own plants. 

Power was 8 - 9¢/KWH before they had to sell them, it went up to about 12¢ for a couple of years and now that they own them again it's about 10¢. 

The solar stuff turned out mostly good, a lot of new installations went up but if you had solar, you got about 3¢ for what you sold the PUCO, and were still charged 10¢ for what you used. There's still a battle over it, the PUCO doesn't want to pay retail for the power they get and the owners say 'it's my power, I should be able to use it at my house'. 

I can see both their points, I don't think there's a fair way to do it.


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## zoltan (Mar 15, 2010)

micromind said:


> Forced air is ok, just not baseboard, plus I believe (though I have not actually seen) that it's in the resi energy code.



What would they require for a remodel? I'll be doing a condo remodel that has 95' of BB heaters to replace, haha.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

zoltan said:


> Any 120/240v loads not required to be afci or gfci protected


attic receptacles and lighting


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

Almost Retired said:


> attic receptacles and lighting


lighting? depends on what room the lights are in?


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

readydave8 said:


> lighting? depends on what room the lights are in?


i meant attic lighting


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