# Removing panel bonding jumper



## Chris A. (Feb 15, 2014)

In my class, we cover industrial, commercial and residential electrical applications. My school builds a house every year and my class does the electrical. The house we're doing now has the service panel interior of the house away from the meter base. In TN, if the service panel is more than 25 ft from the adjacent meter location, the neutral/ground bonding jumper must be removed and treated like a sub panel. I understand the reasonings for this on a sub panel, but I don't understand the reasoning for it on the main panel. The only difference I see is that you have extended the service entry cables, that's all. Looking for insight to help me understand this better. Thanks guys.


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## Awg-Dawg (Jan 23, 2007)

Chris A. said:


> In TN, if the service panel is more than 25 ft from the adjacent meter location, the neutral/ground bonding jumper must be removed and treated like a sub panel.


 
I cant think of one reason to require something like that.


Are you sure that's how it is?


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

I'm guessing there's a big chunk of the code left out here: 

If the service conductors extend more than 25 feet into the home, Tennessee likely requires them to have overcurrent protection, in which case the main on the exterior of the house would become the service panel, and anything downstream would become a de facto sub panel.

Maybe someone from TN can verify?


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## Chris A. (Feb 15, 2014)

Yes, inspector will not pass if the bonding jumper is in the panel.


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## Chris A. (Feb 15, 2014)

Big John said:


> I'm betting there's a big chunk of the code left out here:


There may be. I checked the TN state code on the internet but didn't find anything. The NEC states re-grounding the neutral is not permitted on the load side of the panel. But the situation I have, I don't see it being on the load side.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

I have attached a link to the Tennessee state rules, which appears to show that the current NEC is 2008. It does not show the rule which you state. that does not mean that your local AHJ has not interpreted it that way, but in either case if they actually have made that interpretation, that would still require the neutral-ground bond to be in the meter can ? Is that is what is required ? 

http://www.tennessee.gov/sos/rules/0780/0780-02/0780-02-01.20131230.pdf


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## Chris A. (Feb 15, 2014)

wildleg said:


> I have attached a link to the Tennessee state rules, which appears to show that the current NEC is 2008. It does not show the rule which you state. that does not mean that your local AHJ has not interpreted it that way, but in either case if they actually have made that interpretation, that would still require the neutral-ground bond to be in the meter can ? Is that is what is required ? http://www.tennessee.gov/sos/rules/0780/0780-02/0780-02-01.20131230.pdf


Yes the ground and neutral are bonded in the meter can. I was just curious as to why it was required to do this. I'm sure they (TN) have a reason for it, but I analyze everything and want to know how and why things work, lol.


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## Chris A. (Feb 15, 2014)

And thanks for the link wildleg. That's the site I was looking at yesterday and didn't see it.


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## zen (Jun 15, 2009)

Chris A. said:


> In my class, we cover industrial, commercial and residential electrical applications. My school builds a house every year and my class does the electrical. The house we're doing now has the service panel interior of the house away from the meter base. In TN, if the service panel is more than 25 ft from the adjacent meter location, the neutral/ground bonding jumper must be removed and treated like a sub panel. I understand the reasonings for this on a sub panel, but I don't understand the reasoning for it on the main panel. The only difference I see is that you have extended the service entry cables, that's all. Looking for insight to help me understand this better. Thanks guys.


My guess is that your service panel may be 25 ft from your meter which means you need a disconnect for your panel at the meter, and it becomes the first means of disconnect and so the neutral and ground are bonded there and now your main panel is a sub panel.


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## zen (Jun 15, 2009)

The meter can needs to be grounded. In place that require it I put a ground lug in the meter and run the ground through the feeders nipple and through a grounding bushing to the ground/neutral bus


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## Chris A. (Feb 15, 2014)

zen said:


> My guess is that your service panel may be 25 ft from your meter which means you need a disconnect for your panel at the meter, and it becomes the first means of disconnect and so the neutral and ground are bonded there and now your main panel is a sub panel.


That's kinda what I was thinking, but when I asked about a disconnect at the meter, I was told we didn't have to have one.


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## Chris A. (Feb 15, 2014)

zen said:


> The meter can needs to be grounded. In place that require it I put a ground lug in the meter and run the ground through the feeders nipple and through a grounding bushing to the ground/neutral bus


The ground and neutral are bonded at the meter because I asked about carrying grounding electrode to panel and was told it wasn't necessary. Only the neutral went to panel.


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## Roger (Jul 7, 2007)

Chris A. said:


> Only the neutral went to panel.


So, the neutral is bonded ahead of the service equipment and there is no bonding jumper or EGC attached at the panel, ask the inspector what clears any faults down steam of the panel.

Roger


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## Legacyelectric (Sep 9, 2012)

I know in louisiana we can only go 19" from a meter to a main panel when panel is inside without another disco being required. I assumed this was NEC? Running unfused off the load side of a meter 25' through the house seems like a bad idea to me. Bonded neutral or not.


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## Legacyelectric (Sep 9, 2012)

Don't quote me on the 19"... Maybe 29"... Can't remember. But if it's not a back to back install pretty much need an outside main.


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## btharmy (Jan 17, 2009)

This makes no sense. If you don't bond ground and neutral at the panel and you don't run an equipment ground then the system is NOT effectively grounded. The inspector is talking out his keester. He's a moron.


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## Chris A. (Feb 15, 2014)

I'll find out all information about this Monday when I go back to the panel in question to reassure what I've told you is accurate.


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## 3xdad (Jan 25, 2011)

When the firefighter knocks the meter out with an ax, then i guess there's your first means of disconnect.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Chris A. said:


> In my class, we cover industrial, commercial and residential electrical applications. My school builds a house every year and my class does the electrical. The house we're doing now has the service panel interior of the house away from the meter base. In TN, if the service panel is more than 25 ft from the adjacent meter location, the neutral/ground bonding jumper must be removed and treated like a sub panel. I understand the reasonings for this on a sub panel, but I don't understand the reasoning for it on the main panel. The only difference I see is that you have extended the service entry cables, that's all. Looking for insight to help me understand this better. Thanks guys.


Doesn't make sense unless there's a disco before the panel.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Some of this depends upon whether you are entering the house with unfused conductors or running them on the outside of the building. The old adage was that you could wrap your house with SEU and not need a disconnect, not that you would. Once you enter the house you needed that disconnect as close as possible. There wasn't a specific number of feet unless somebody locally amended it. It was left to the inspectors judgement. Twenty five feet into the house and you better have a service rated disconnect next to the meter or maybe back to back if its a garage.


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## btharmy (Jan 17, 2009)

nrp3 said:


> Some of this depends upon whether you are entering the house with unfused conductors or running them on the outside of the building. The old adage was that you could wrap your house with SEU and not need a disconnect, not that you would. Once you enter the house you needed that disconnect as close as possible. There wasn't a specific number of feet unless somebody locally amended it. It was left to the inspectors judgement. Twenty five feet into the house and you better have a service rated disconnect next to the meter or maybe back to back if its a garage.


 It still requires either: 1. Run an equipment ground from the fused disconnect (where all grounding and bonding takes place) at the meter and remove the bonding strap the panel -or- 2. No equipment ground and no fused disconnect and leave the bonding strap in the panel (where all the grounding and bonding takes place)

The distance from the panel (whether ran inside or outside the structure) makes no difference.


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## Chris A. (Feb 15, 2014)

I agree there should be a disco on the adjacent wall of the meter, and I still think the bonding jumper should remain in the panel. This is the reason I asked you the experts because it just didn't seem right to me. But like I said earlier, I'll find out all the info on it tomorrow when I get back to the job site and I'll fill y'all in on any possible missing information.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

Chris A. said:


> I agree there should be a disco on the adjacent wall of the meter, and I still think the bonding jumper should remain in the panel. This is the reason I asked you the experts because it just didn't seem right to me. But like I said earlier, I'll find out all the info on it tomorrow when I get back to the job site and I'll fill y'all in on any possible missing information.


disco yes. but that is the main, and the main bonding jumper goes there.


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## Chris A. (Feb 15, 2014)

wildleg said:


> disco yes. but that is the main, and the main bonding jumper goes there.


Yep, I realized that right after I hit send, lol. It is treated like a sub panel past the disco.


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## Chris A. (Feb 15, 2014)

Only other info I gathered on this discussion was the inspector considers the meter as the means of disconnect. Not exactly the answer I was looking for, but it's their rule and I'll do it however they want. Thanks for all the responses. There is definitely a ton of electrical knowledge on this site.


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## btharmy (Jan 17, 2009)

Chris A. said:


> Only other info I gathered on this discussion was the inspector considers the meter as the means of disconnect. Not exactly the answer I was looking for, but it's their rule and I'll do it however they want. Thanks for all the responses. There is definitely a ton of electrical knowledge on this site.


Does he consider it a means of disconnect even when the utility puts a lock on the meter to deter vandalism? The meter is not, nor has it ever been considered a means of disconnect for a premises. I stand by my earlier statement, He's an idiot.


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

Chris A. said:


> .....the inspector considers the meter as the means of disconnect.


Just so I'm straight on this.. you are permitted 25' of unfused service conductor inside the structure prior to any overcurrent device, a meter is considered the service disconnect and your inspector never knew the last sentence of 230.66 existed? (and I'm not even going into the other code sections being ignored and/or mis-applied.)

:blink: I got nothin' else.

Something has to be missing here... that, or we just got our eye's trolled out.

Pete


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

_My eyes!_


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## Chris A. (Feb 15, 2014)

I promise you, you haven't been trolled. From the information I've been given, and I asked about it again this morning, the meter is considered the disconnect. I doesn't make sense to me, and my instructor agrees that it's a screwed up mess. But like I said, they make the rules, so if that's the way they want it, that's the way they'll get it. But code or no code, there's no way in hell I'd do it like that on my house.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Eeek!


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## dcb_minded (May 19, 2014)

I learned a long time ago, if you just do it the way the inspector wants it, you'll never get finished and it'll always be wrong... sick to your guns on safety issues... if you teach him something no matter his attitude toward it, he will respect you for it deep down.... pick your battles wisely though... change the nit noid stuff just to appease him.

Sent from my SGH-T599 using Tapatalk


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## Chris A. (Feb 15, 2014)

Well one thing I need to mention is, when the house is finished, it is auctioned off and the buyer pays to have the house moved to his location of choice. This scenario is one reason the panel is installed where it is, because we don't know where the meter will be located. Also, when the poco comes to install the service, I don't know that they don't make the HO install a disconnect between the meter and the panel. All I had to go on was the info I've shared with you guys, which in itself was enough to make me question it. And now the further I have dug into it, I'm more confused than when I started. I hope I haven't confused y'all too.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

If the meter is going to be considered your disconnect, which, by the way, is nonsense, then you'll need to run 4 wire to the main panel. Your main bonding jumper will then be in the meter can. Our state says anything over 8' from where you come through the house wall needs a disco on the outside. 230.70 (A) (1) leaves too much room for dissention so our state came up with a distance. So what do you do? Put a "Service Disconnect" sticker on your meter can?:blink:


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## 3xdad (Jan 25, 2011)

Chris, by that logic, ask your 'specter if you can feed from a meter can to a MLO panel.:whistling2:


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## TQuade (Jan 22, 2010)

Inspector says the meter is a disconnect means and don't like the bonding jumper in the main panel check code article 250.24(B) exception 1 " where more than one service disconnecting means is located in an assembly listed for use as service equipment an un spliced main bonding jumper shall bond the grounded (neutral) conductors to the assembly enclosure which means jump the panel with your bond strap keep the meter with the neutral and ground combined


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## Ultrafault (Dec 16, 2012)

TQuade said:


> Inspector says the meter is a disconnect means and don't like the bonding jumper in the main panel check code article 250.24(B) exception 1 " where more than one service disconnecting means is located in an assembly listed for use as service equipment an un spliced main bonding jumper shall bond the grounded (neutral) conductors to the assembly enclosure which means jump the panel with your bond strap keep the meter with the neutral and ground combined


How many wires do you intend to run from the meter to the breaker panel?

Do you intend to install a bonding jumper at the service?

Why install a meter at all, if as you say you do not know where the service will come from once the house is moved?

Where are you getting a meter that is listed as a disconecting means?

How does a meter satisify 230.91.


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## Chris A. (Feb 15, 2014)

Ultrafault said:


> How many wires do you intend to run from the meter to the breaker panel?


2 hot and 1 neutral
[/QUOTE] Do you intend to install a bonding jumper at the service?[/QUOTE]
If you mean the meter, I don't know, I won't be there when it's installed. 

[/QUOTE Where are you getting a meter that is listed as a disconecting means? How does a meter satisify 230.91.[/QUOTE] 
The state inspector.


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## TQuade (Jan 22, 2010)

My reply was based off the information the thread starter provided. I'm not working on this place I just posted an answer to help get him through.


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## Ultrafault (Dec 16, 2012)

TQuade said:


> My reply was based off the information the thread starter provided. I'm not working on this place I just posted an answer to help get him through.


Lol sorry


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## Ultrafault (Dec 16, 2012)

Chris A. said:


> 2 hot and 1 neutral


 Do you intend to install a bonding jumper at the service?[/QUOTE]
If you mean the meter, I don't know, I won't be there when it's installed.

[/QUOTE Where are you getting a meter that is listed as a disconecting means? How does a meter satisify 230.91.[/QUOTE]
The state inspector.[/QUOTE]

Sorry I meant breaker box not service.


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## Ultrafault (Dec 16, 2012)

Could you ask your inspector I want to know what he would say.


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## Roger (Jul 7, 2007)

Sorry, but this thread is a joke or just ridiculous. If it's real tell the ignorant inspector (tell him I said that) to come here and explain his reasoning as to what is going to clear a fault downstream of the panel. Electrically speaking, the meter being considered a disconnect is not an issue, the bonding is.

Roger


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## TQuade (Jan 22, 2010)

Exactly bonding the ground and neutral at the meter is fine but because the panel in the state it is now their is no way to clear fault current if any was on the ground wire. it would become more of a risk because the panel could become "live" and at any ground wire ran from that panel could be hazardous. all receptacles installed from this panel could have voltage present on their ground screws and any appliance plugged in become live if they utilize the grounding wire.


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## Chris A. (Feb 15, 2014)

I didn't start this thread to piss anyone off. I was just trying to figure out why it was done this way. I spoke to a friend today that works for a state inspector from a different region. He is going to ask for an explanation as to why. But he did tell me that when they do an installation like that, they install a disconnect between meter and panel.


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## Roger (Jul 7, 2007)

Chris A. said:


> But he did tell me that when they do an installation like that, they install a disconnect between meter and panel.


And that wouldn't have any bearing with the issue at hand.

Roger


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## TQuade (Jan 22, 2010)

Yea they do you can install an enclosed circuit breaker and bond your neutrals and grounds their but anything after that your gonna have to run a ground with your hots and neutral to your panel and have them isolated from each other.


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## Chris A. (Feb 15, 2014)

I found out today that there's was a major miscommunication regarding the grounding electrode. I was told that we weren't installing one, but what was meant was we weren't going to install it, it would be installed at the time the meter is installed. So therefore the panel will be grounded. I apologize for the confusion.


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## Roger (Jul 7, 2007)

Chris A. said:


> I found out today that there's was a major miscommunication regarding the grounding electrode. I was told that we weren't installing one, but what was meant was we weren't going to install it, it would be installed at the time the meter is installed. So therefore the panel will be grounded. I apologize for the confusion.


 
The grounding electrode or lack of still doesn't cure the problem of clearing a downstream fault. A grounding electrode is not for fault clearing protection.

There must be an EGC run to the panel or the neutral must be bonded at the panel which is a code problem if the meter is in fact the service disconnect.


Roger


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

what a useless thread this has been


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## Roger (Jul 7, 2007)

drspec said:


> what a useless thread this has been


Why? Have you not learned anything? 

Roger


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

Roger said:


> Why? Have you not learned anything?
> 
> Roger


I learned that the OP wasted a lot of people's time and I still don't think he has a clue what he should or should not do regardless if they are installing the meter base or not


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## Roger (Jul 7, 2007)

drspec said:


> I still don't think he has a clue what he should or should not do regardless if they are installing the meter base or not


 No argument from me.

Roger


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## Chris A. (Feb 15, 2014)

Roger said:


> The grounding electrode or lack of still doesn't cure the problem of clearing a downstream fault. A grounding electrode is not for fault clearing protection. There must be an EGC run to the panel or the neutral must be bonded at the panel which is a code problem if the meter is in fact the service disconnect. Roger


The will be an EGC, that's what I meant by saying the panel will be grounded. I'm still learning things in this trade. I guess some of you automatically knew everything about it when you decided to get into it.


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## Chris A. (Feb 15, 2014)

And since this was such a waste of time, tell the guy holding a gun to your head making you read this that he can go home now, the thread is over.


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## Roger (Jul 7, 2007)

Chris A. said:


> I guess some of you automatically knew everything about it when you decided to get into it.


No, none of us even know everything now. The problem was when you were specifically questioned on what you were saying you kept digging your hole deeper.

You should have said you were confused about the installation and was not sure what was going on..

By saying there is going to be an EGC installed now is a direct conflict to what you said earlier.

We all were in your shoes sat one time.

Roger


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## Chris A. (Feb 15, 2014)

Agreed, I should have said I was confused. By me being told that we didn't have to do those things, I took it that it wasn't going to be done at all and that's what confused me. In actuality, they will be done, just not by us. Like I said before, I apologize for the confusion. I'll make sure I have my info straight before I post anything else.


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## Roger (Jul 7, 2007)

Chris A. said:


> Agreed, I should have said I was confused. By me being told that we didn't have to do those things, I took it that it wasn't going to be done at all and that's what confused me. In actuality, they will be done, just not by us. Like I said before, I apologize for the confusion. I'll make sure I have my info straight before I post anything else.


 Don't sweat it and keep posting. :thumbsup:

Roger


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Roger said:


> A grounding electrode is not for fault clearing protection.


Are you sure about that?


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## TQuade (Jan 22, 2010)

The thread wasn't wasted. a lot of information was provided from members that's what these things are for.


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## Roger (Jul 7, 2007)

MTW said:


> Are you sure about that?


Well MTW, it is if FP&L is involved. :thumbsup:

Roger


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## 8V71 (Dec 23, 2011)

I think I may have this figured out except for one important detail. The missing EGC from the meter to the panel.

1) There is a meter main outside for temp power and to check the electrical when finished.

2) panel is centrally installed because the service entrance location is not known.

3) House is sold and the (SER?) service entrance cable to the panel is not included with the house.


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## 8V71 (Dec 23, 2011)

Roger said:


> Well MTW, it is if FP&L is involved. :thumbsup:
> 
> Roger


The all important "well". :thumbsup:


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## Chris A. (Feb 15, 2014)

8V71 said:


> I think I may have this figured out except for one important detail. The missing EGC from the meter to the panel. 1) There is a meter main outside for temp power and to check the electrical when finished. 2) panel is centrally installed because the service entrance location is not known. 3) House is sold and the (SER?) service entrance conductor to the panel is not included with the house.


Yeah that pretty much sums it up. And I am assuming that the EGC will be run to the panel at time of meter install and when SE cables are ran.


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## 8V71 (Dec 23, 2011)

Chris A. said:


> Yeah that pretty much sums it up. And I am assuming that the EGC will be run to the panel at time of meter install and when SE cables are ran.


What I was getting at is.....maybe you have a meter main with a breaker inside of the enclosure which would make the main panel a temporary sub-panel. Instead of SE running to the panel you have SER which includes the EGC.


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## Chris A. (Feb 15, 2014)

Well I wish I knew the answer to that. I'm hoping to speak to the inspector during final inspection and find out exactly what is done when the house is at it's final location and ready for power.


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## 8V71 (Dec 23, 2011)

Chris A. said:


> Well I wish I knew the answer to that. I'm hoping to speak to the inspector during final inspection and find out exactly what is done when the house is at it's final location and ready for power.


Oh, I thought you were describing the service like right now while you are building the house. Who cares what happens after it leaves. I'm sure the service will be installed properly, bonding jumper in or out depending on the future service.


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## Chris A. (Feb 15, 2014)

8V71 said:


> Oh, I thought you were describing the service like right now while you are building the house. Who cares what happens after it leaves. I'm sure the service will be installed properly, bonding jumper in or out depending on the future service.


You're probably right, I don't know why I'm worried about what happens later. But I have a bad habit of over analyzing everything, lol.


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