# One circuit per room (resi)



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

I've worked for several contractors that did primarily new resi and they all wired one circuit per room (or one room per circuit if you prefer.) I always thought this was wasteful and stupid especially since these houses all have central air. My rule of thumb is 2 rooms per circuit including bedrooms. I also combine the dining room and nook on the counter top circuit. I've never had a problem doing it this way as long as window units aren't being used.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

As a general rule I do one room per circuit. Many of the homes though do not have central HVAC, and even if they do it isn't always used. It seems that most homes/condos around here have 1-2 people per room, and they use the room like it is a house, because of the expense of housing.

So it makes sense when I am doing a rewire, to me at least. Doesn't make me less money, I charge for it.


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## mjbasford (Oct 2, 2016)

The only rooms I do dedicated circuits to (besides the code required) are usually the master (which I tap smoke onto) and a home office.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Laundry rooms are the only place I run one receptacle circuit that stays inside that room. Just like the codebook says. As for bedrooms, I usually try more or less to stick to 13 outlets for a twenty amp circuit of outlets, and ten for a fifteen amp outlet circuit. I'm wasteful as hell because I charge each job for providing 20 amp receptacle outlets every place in the house. (exception- weird drilling setups, I'm tapping the lighting to get that single stupid outlet someplace hard to get to , so that one is 14 gauge on a 15 amp circuit. Usually 13 works out to 2-1/2 bedrooms , maybe 3 bedrooms depending. And, lately,,,,,,,, as far as lights go, I'll split up the circuits just like I always have- maybe one for bedrooms and baths attached to bedrooms, and another for the main house lights- kitchen, dining, living room, halls, garage, whatever. However, I'll join the two home runs at the panel and just stick one afci for the entire lighting system. Thank you led lighting. Checked one just like that today, with all the lights on at the same time I read just under 5 amps total with my new fluke t-1000 pro meter. If there was an upstairs , I woulda stuck that circuit on the one taking care of the downstairs also. However I'm keeping the separate home runs just in case they invent some new type of lamp in a couple of more years. CFL's sure went away fast. I haven't put one of them into a fixture in two years now.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Space heaters so one circuit per room makes sense to me.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

splatz said:


> Space heaters so one circuit per room makes sense to me.


What is that? Is that an animal species I never saw yet? How many legs does it have? F' living in a cold hellhole, who needs that.


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## brodgers (Aug 5, 2007)

An old timer taught me 12 lights or receptacles per 15 amp circuit and 16 per 20 amp circuit. I still follow this today and has never failed me.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

macmikeman said:


> What is that? Is that an animal species I never saw yet? How many legs does it have? F' living in a cold hellhole, who needs that.


Here, there's one in every house (at least one) no matter how hot you keep the house they want it hotter.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)




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## catsparky1 (Sep 24, 2013)

If it is a custom we do what we are paid to do . If it is a tract you get what the minimum that we can do to make the most money . I care less about space heaters and window units . When you buy mass produced housing you get a garbage house and you can pay a stupid amount in extras for us to do what you want . The last time I checked we are here to make money so I aint giving you anything more that what I have to .

Now with customs when you hire us we sit down with the customer and go over what you want and what you need . Although one power circuit per 500 square is more than adequate in most cases . Power and lighting are always separated in customs but not in tracts . 

If it is an apartment . Well ha ha ha ha ha ha giggle we do what we can get away with . If 3/4 of the pad is on one breaker with 50 recepts on it and another circuit with 2 recepts on it oh well . Right now we are doing a 90 unit loft set up section 8 housing garbage . I told the boys if I see a tape measure you're fired . Blow and go don't care if the lights are lined up or if counter plugs look like the waves at north shore . It is gov funded dirt bag housing and I could careless what the fools living there think . PW resi is awesome . Ten units every 5 days . One more week of rough in left and we are at less that 40% of bid labor . Im getting a huge bonus at the end of this one .


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## Dan the electricman (Jan 2, 2011)

catsparky1 said:


> If it is an apartment . Well ha ha ha ha ha ha giggle we do what we can get away with . If 3/4 of the pad is on one breaker with 50 recepts on it and another circuit with 2 recepts on it oh well .
> 
> Right now we are doing a 90 unit loft set up section 8 housing garbage. I told the boys if I see a tape measure you're fired . Blow and go don't care if the lights are lined up or if counter plugs look like the waves at north shore . It is gov funded dirt bag housing and I could careless what the fools living there think .


Karma gonna get ya bro. Keep this crap ^^^^ in mind if ya get diagnosed with cancer on your 65th birthday. You should be ashamed, but clearly you're not.


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## catsparky1 (Sep 24, 2013)

No karma gonna get to me Dan . When was the last time you were in an apartment ?
90 percent of renters care not one bit about where they live . They have no investment in it to take care of it . They trash the places . High end stuff is a little better but still they do not own it so they have no respect for those who do . We did a 7 story section 8 in 2015 .
In 2017 it looked like a bomb went off . In two years lights broken , holes kicked in walls , trash in stair wells . doors broken etc . Thats not in the units thats the house . As soon as they fixed a problem they just did it all over again . They cant keep up with repairs . Section 8 are not good people . Thats why they are section 8 .


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## CTshockhazard (Aug 28, 2009)

catsparky1 said:


> No karma gonna get to me Dan . When was the last time you were in an apartment ?
> 90 percent of renters care not one bit about where they live . They have no investment in it to take care of it . They trash the places . High end stuff is a little better but still they do not own it so they have no respect for those who do . We did a 7 story section 8 in 2015 .
> In 2017 it looked like a bomb went off . In two years lights broken , holes kicked in walls , trash in stair wells . doors broken etc . Thats not in the units thats the house . As soon as they fixed a problem they just did it all over again . They cant keep up with repairs . Section 8 are not good people . Thats why they are section 8 .



3000 miles away it's exactly the same.


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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

I have a hard time staying motivated if I'm wiring something I can't be proud of. I'm not saying I turn everything into the Taj Mahal, but it should at least look like an electrical professional was paid to wire it. In my opinion.


Different strokes and all....


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

I never saw the point of individual circuits for each room. If it's an older house than I'll do the receptacles in 12 and the lighting in 14, and if its a new house or major reno with central air/mini-splits and modern insulation, then only required receptacles are wired in #12. I'll usually throw the master bedroom with its lights on 1 circuit and hit the smokes from there, and then share receptacle circuits amongst rooms in an orderly fashion (not 2-3 circuits for receptacles in the living room, for example), and the lights on their own circuit(s).


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Cow said:


> I have a hard time staying motivated if I'm wiring something I can't be proud of. I'm not saying I turn everything into the Taj Mahal, but it should at least look like an electrical professional was paid to wire it. In my opinion.


My worst work is considerably better than what most people deserve, but if I was only going to work for those that deserve my craftsmanship, I'd probably only build doghouses.


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## trentonmakes (Mar 21, 2017)

Cow said:


> I have a hard time staying motivated if I'm wiring something I can't be proud of. I'm not saying I turn everything into the Taj Mahal, but it should at least look like an electrical professional was paid to wire it. In my opinion.
> 
> 
> Different strokes and all....


Looks good from my house! Lol

I hate the thought of someone coming behind me and saying...WTF?



Sent from my LG-K550 using Tapatalk


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

I should have defined terms a little better. 

New construction, semi custom, tract - code minimum

Custom - I see no need to go overboard with customs either. 

Apartments in the city without central ac - one room per circuit for window a/c.

I've never done section 8 but I know people who have and around here it's all spec'd with #12 for everything. Not sure on circuitry.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

catsparky1 said:


> No karma gonna get to me Dan . When was the last time you were in an apartment ?
> 90 percent of renters care not one bit about where they live . They have no investment in it to take care of it . They trash the places . High end stuff is a little better but still they do not own it so they have no respect for those who do . We did a 7 story section 8 in 2015 .
> In 2017 it looked like a bomb went off . In two years lights broken , holes kicked in walls , trash in stair wells . doors broken etc . Thats not in the units thats the house . As soon as they fixed a problem they just did it all over again . They cant keep up with repairs . Section 8 are not good people . Thats why they are section 8 .


I work one way, it's easier for me not to break my pattern.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Always one room per circuit, you never know what people will run.

I love the ones that run a window a/c in heating season.


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

When I wired my house each bedroom got its own receptacle circuit. Each of the bathrooms got their own circuit. The lights are not on the receptacle circuit. WHY ??

I have 2 daughters and a wife. You say SO ????


3 females equals 3 hairdryers and 3 curling iron being used at the same time.
I also built the house with 3 full bathrooms 

I never had a problem with the circuits getting overloaded and tripping the breakers !


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

manchestersparky said:


> When I wired my house each bedroom got its own receptacle circuit. Each of the bathrooms got their own circuit. The lights are not on the receptacle circuit. WHY ??
> 
> I have 2 daughters and a wife. You say SO ????
> 
> ...


Smart man..... Keep the women happy and you be happy too!


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## samgregger (Jan 23, 2013)

I do one circuit per room too, it may not be the most efficient, but it makes the most sense to me. I hate looking in a panel trying to figure out which breaker I need to shut off and find that the east side master bedroom receptacle circuit is also the attic lights, 1 basement receptacle, the yard light, kitchen north, Timmy's closet, and the neighbor's garage door opener.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

samgregger said:


> I do one circuit per room too, it may not be the most efficient, but it makes the most sense to me. I hate looking in a panel trying to figure out which breaker I need to shut off and find that the east side master bedroom receptacle circuit is also the attic lights, 1 basement receptacle, the yard light, kitchen north, Timmy's closet, and the neighbor's garage door opener.


Oh the horror.


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## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

It is interesting in that how our codes are so similar and then like this so far apart.

Up here we have so many dedicated circuits in a standard home it is almost impossible to trip a breaker. For general use circuits we have the "12 device rule" which essentially means that you can put 12 power consuming devices on a circuit; so receptacles, exhaust fan, light, etc. The only exception to the that rule is lighting; you can max out lighting circuit only to 1440 watts if you use the max rating of the fixture(s).

We have rules for dedicated circuits for just about everything, refrigerators, garage, kitchen counters, laundry room, exterior receptacles, etc. We used to have a rule that you had to have a dedicated circuit for the dining room too; they took that out a cycle or two ago.

Having said that, you really don't hear too much about electrical issues (fires, shock, etc) up here either; not sure if it is a byproduct of our code, or if it is just the way we use our electrical systems in our homes.

Cheers
John


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Navyguy said:


> It is interesting in that how our codes are so similar and then like this so far apart.
> 
> Up here we have so many dedicated circuits in a standard home it is almost impossible to trip a breaker. For general use circuits we have the "12 device rule" which essentially means that you can put 12 power consuming devices on a circuit; so receptacles, exhaust fan, light, etc. The only exception to the that rule is lighting; you can max out lighting circuit only to 1440 watts if you use the max rating of the fixture(s).
> 
> ...


A few things I like about the Canadian code - 15 amp dedicated circuits allowed for things not allowed here, no stupid 20 amp dining room circuit as you just mentioned, and less GFCI rules. On the other hand, I strongly dislike the separate main breaker compartment rule.


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## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

Like some have mentioned, there are a few things that we do over and above code that simply makes sense like putting the bathroom receptacle on a separate circuit, putting appliances on dedicated circuits such as furnace, washing machine, dishwasher, microwave, etc. While some of them are code required, some simply you do because you don't know what they are going to plug in and don't want the issues or you want to isolate them for ease.

When you start looking at it from that perspective, there is not much left to put on a general utility circuit anyway.

Cheers
John


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Our heat is dedicated electric or more commonly forced air gas. Adding AC is also pretty easy when you already have duct work throughout for heat so central air is also common. you rarely see plug in heaters in bedrooms except in older homes with bad windows. In new construction installing Dedicated circuits for each bedroom is major overkill here considering there will be no heat or AC used.


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## matthewwoodriff (Feb 7, 2015)

Just my 2 cents here. 500 ft2 per or about 12 items on a 15 and 16 items on a 20.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

manchestersparky said:


> When I wired my house each bedroom got its own receptacle circuit. Each of the bathrooms got their own circuit. The lights are not on the receptacle circuit. WHY ??
> 
> I have 2 daughters and a wife. You say SO ????
> 
> ...


I like the way you think!


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

eddy current said:


> Our heat is dedicated electric or more commonly forced air gas. Adding AC is also pretty easy when you already have duct work throughout for heat so central air is also common. you rarely see plug in heaters in bedrooms except in older homes with bad windows. In new construction installing Dedicated circuits for each bedroom is major overkill here considering there will be no heat or AC used.


I guess Canadian girls never turn their curling iron or straightener on while they are blow drying their hair at the mirror in their bedroom because everyone in the house has their own personal bathroom?


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

MechanicalDVR said:


> I guess Canadian girls never turn their curling iron or straightener on while they are blow drying their hair at the mirror in their bedroom because everyone in the house has their own personal bathroom?


Our bathrooms don’t have to be dedicated either. Only 15 amp as well and can have up to 12 other outlets on that circuit. Although they don’t have to be Arc fault protected now so it is common to dedicate them or put them on with the lighting.

On custom builds I always tried to dedicate one circuit for the bathrooms and or one circuit for a big bedroom with an en-suite.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

eddy current said:


> Our bathrooms don’t have to be dedicated either. Only 15 amp as well and can have up to 12 other outlets on that circuit. Although they don’t have to be Arc fault protected now so it is common to dedicate them or put them on with the lighting.
> 
> On custom builds I always tried to dedicate one circuit for the bathrooms and or one circuit for a big bedroom with an en-suite.


I always put a busy bathroom on a dedicated circuit if there are going to be hair dryers, curling irons, etc. Otherwise, it’s twelve points per circuit unless it’s LED’s (load ‘em up).


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

ding-ding-ding...and the winner is...post # 20.
If you think it's hurting your profit margin...raise your price


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

eddy current said:


> On custom builds I always tried to dedicate one circuit for the bathrooms and or one circuit for a big bedroom with an en-suite.



Thats a lot of rooms for an igloo!


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## Helmut (May 7, 2014)

MTW said:


> Custom - I see no need to go overboard with customs either.


I do. On a custom house, I'd sell them on every receptacle being dedicated if I could get it.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Helmut said:


> I do. On a custom house, I'd sell them on every receptacle being dedicated if I could get it.


LOL!

I have done that a time or three on kitchens for people that think they are professional chefs and workshops for those that think they are Norm Abram.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

MechanicalDVR said:


> LOL!
> 
> I have done that a time or three on kitchens for people that think they are professional chefs and workshops for those that think they are Norm Abram.


I've had my share of 5 star kitchen wiring jobs (new and remodel) 
and lady (or man) don't even cook:vs_laugh:


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

MechanicalDVR said:


> I like the way you think!


So your ex wives get a well wired house. :vs_laugh:


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> eddy current said:
> 
> 
> > On custom builds I always tried to dedicate one circuit for the bathrooms and or one circuit for a big bedroom with an en-suite.
> ...


Not sure if you know but there are cities in the US that are colder and more north than mine, and I’m not talking about Alaska, just sayin


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## B-Nabs (Jun 4, 2014)

eddy current said:


> Not sure if you know but there are cities in the US that are colder and more north than mine, and I’m not talking about Alaska, just sayin


A friend of mine went to high school in Kirkland WA for a couple of years, and legit had some of his classmates believing that back home (in Vancouver BC, two hours north) we had sled dogs and lived in igloos. 

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

B-Nabs said:


> A friend of mine went to high school in Kirkland WA for a couple of years, and legit had some of his classmates believing that back home (in Vancouver BC, two hours north) we had sled dogs and lived in igloos.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


They don't live in igloos in BC?:sad:


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Let me get this right:

An American builds a leaky house and then the electrician overwires it so the HO can put in portable electric heaters. A Canadian builds a non-leaky house so portable heaters aren’t needed.

Here’s a fact: Warm air will always attempt to migrate to where there is cool air and vice versa. A well insulated wall will help keep the heat inside in the winter and outside in the summer. Canadians figured this out a long time ago. It’s so simple.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> Let me get this right:
> 
> An American builds a leaky house and then the electrician overwires it so the HO can put in portable electric heaters. A Canadian builds a non-leaky house so portable heaters aren’t needed.
> 
> Here’s a fact: Warm air will always attempt to migrate to where there is cool air and vice versa. A well insulated wall will help keep the heat inside in the winter and outside in the summer. Canadians figured this out a long time ago. It’s so simple.


New houses in America are insulated just fine. The heating system can make that house as warm as anyone wants. The issue is when most people living there are comfortable at 67 degrees while one person wants it to be 75. That's when they use a space heater. *

Some people don't like spending money on heat, they will keep their house at 63 degrees. It doesn't matter if they had a little bit extra insulation like Canada has and it costs them slightly less to run the heater, they would still keep it low.

*This is why mini-splits are becoming more popular on houses that would normally have central heating/AC. Each room can have it's own temperature.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> New houses in America are insulated just fine. The heating system can make that house as warm as anyone wants. The issue is when most people living there are comfortable at 67 degrees while one person wants it to be 75. That's when they use a space heater. *
> 
> Some people don't like spending money on heat, they will keep their house at 63 degrees. It doesn't matter if they had a little bit extra insulation like Canada has and it costs them slightly less to run the heater, they would still keep it low.
> 
> *This is why mini-splits are becoming more popular on houses that would normally have central heating/AC. Each room can have it's own temperature.


If a Canadian is cold, he puts on a sweater  .


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> If a Canadian is cold, he puts on a sweater  .


Then why do you have to go to such crazy lengths, ignoring the law of diminishing returns, to insulate a house?

Sweaters are much cheaper than perfect _vapor_ barriers.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

99cents said:


> Let me get this right:
> 
> An American builds a leaky house and then the electrician overwires it so the HO can put in portable electric heaters. A Canadian builds a non-leaky house so portable heaters aren’t needed.
> 
> Here’s a fact: Warm air will always attempt to migrate to where there is cool air and vice versa. A well insulated wall will help keep the heat inside in the winter and outside in the summer. Canadians figured this out a long time ago. It’s so simple.


Space heaters are very seldom supplemental heaters because the furnace can't put out enough heat, and never because someone's "vapour barrier" isn't perfect. They are used because someone somewhere in the house wants a temperature different from the nearest thermostat. 

It's not an issue with electric heat because every room will have it's own thermostat. Outside of electric heat, you just don't see homes where every bedroom has it's own thermostat. 

Nobody really thinks about it, but if you have a furnace outage in cold weather, it's real nice to be able to go to Walmart at midnight, buy seven $15 space heaters, $100 all in, and keep everyone comfortable. Ask me how I know this


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> New houses in America are insulated just fine.


Actually, they aren’t. You guys are mystified by air infiltration and our building standards. I see Americans struggling with issues we have already solved. I can complain about our strict standards regarding insulation and air tightness but, at the end of the day, we build very comfortable houses.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> Actually, they aren’t. You guys are mystified by air infiltration and our building standards. I see Americans struggling with issues we have already solved. I can complain about our strict standards regarding insulation and air tightness but, at the end of the day, we build very comfortable houses.


New houses in America are insulated just fine.

You guys go to an unnecessary excess.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

99cents said:


> Actually, they aren’t. You guys are mystified by air infiltration and our building standards. I see Americans struggling with issues we have already solved. I can complain about our strict standards regarding insulation and air tightness but, at the end of the day, we build very comfortable houses.


Does anybody chuckle in Canada about agonizing over nail holes in the vapour barrier, then having to run an intake fan for make up air? 

I chuckle about how a nail hole in a plastic sheet is going to let about as much cold air in as opening the door once more per month.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> New houses in America are insulated just fine.
> 
> You guys go to an unnecessary excess.


Actually, we don’t. Building and maintaining the integrity of insulated walls and ceilings is second nature to us. We don’t give it a second thought.

The National Research Council’s studies go back decades. The reason we build the way we do is because it works. I see Americans attempting their own studies when the science already exists if they look were to look North.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> Actually, we don’t. Building and maintaining the integrity of insulated walls and ceilings is second nature to us. We don’t give it a second thought.


 It's an unnecessary excess. 

Doing it second nature doesn't change that.



> The National Research Council’s studies go back decades. The reason we build the way we do is because it works. I see Americans attempting their own studies when the science already exists if they look were to look North.


 It "works"? How does it work? It saves $8/month, which means it will take 23 year to recoup the added cost of construction and the systems needed to process/replace that stale air?

The studies that your NRC did are most likely skewed and biased, as all are.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

I’ve lived in an old house that had no vapour barrier and I’ve lived in a newer house that is build properly for this environment.

There is definitely a huge difference in maintaining a decent temperature inside and in the cost to heat it.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

eddy current said:


> I’ve lived in an old house that had no vapour barrier and I’ve lived in a newer house that is build properly for this environment.
> 
> There is definitely a huge difference in maintaining a decent temperature inside and in the cost to heat it.


The comparison wasnt an old house to a new house.

It’s new house built to American requirements compared to Canadian requirements.

I think if you build two identical houses here in America, one according to our current requirements and the other with Canadian requirements including the upgraded HVAC, The end result wouldn’t be very different. And it would take a long time for any monthly savings to cover the extra initial costs.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

HackWork said:


> The comparison wasnt an old house to a new house.
> 
> It’s new house built to American requirements compared to Canadian requirements.
> 
> I think if you build two identical houses here in America, one according to our current requirements and the other with Canadian requirements including the upgraded HVAC, The end result wouldn’t be very different. And it would take a long time for any monthly savings to cover the extra initial costs.


When I said old I’m referring to one built in the 80’s. Only difference is in the vapour barrier and insulation. The cost is not much different. How much do you think 2 x 6’s for exterior walls cost compared to 2 x 4’s, plus A roll of plastic and thicker insulation?

What if you did the same thing here in Canada? The end result would be very different and it would not take a long time to cover the costs


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

splatz said:


> Space heaters are very seldom supplemental heaters because the furnace can't put out enough heat, and never because someone's "vapour barrier" isn't perfect. They are used because someone somewhere in the house wants a temperature different from the nearest thermostat.
> 
> It's not an issue with electric heat because every room will have it's own thermostat. Outside of electric heat, you just don't see homes where every bedroom has it's own thermostat.
> 
> Nobody really thinks about it, but if you have a furnace outage in cold weather, it's real nice to be able to go to Walmart at midnight, buy seven $15 space heaters, $100 all in, and keep everyone comfortable. Ask me how I know this


Seven? Oh, I get it. Six on the power strip, and one on the other half of the duplex receptacle.


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

*Same here*



Cow said:


> I have a hard time staying motivated if I'm wiring something I can't be proud of. I'm not saying I turn everything into the Taj Mahal, but it should at least look like an electrical professional was paid to wire it. In my opinion.
> 
> 
> Different strokes and all....



When I was an apprentice a long time ago I was told 
" If you can't proudly do a job and put your name on it don't do it"
I still go by this.


Cowboy


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> It's an unnecessary excess.
> 
> Doing it second nature doesn't change that.
> 
> ...


You just don’t get it, Hack. The difference is substantial in terms of energy efficiency, comfort and air quality (health). The NRC studies aren’t skewed because we have decades of practical experience.

I can’t put it any other way. We have lived it both ways. You haven’t. You can’t speak from experience. Besides that, a house lasts for more than 23 years so the added cost is recoverable.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

eddy current said:


> When I said old I’m referring to one built in the 80’s. Only difference is in the vapour barrier and insulation. The cost is not much different. How much do you think 2 x 6’s for exterior walls cost compared to 2 x 4’s, plus A roll of plastic and thicker insulation?


 We use 2X6's and thicker insulation with vapor barrier. We just don't get so fussy with every single and nail hole.



> What if you did the same thing here in Canada? The end result would be very different and it would not take a long time to cover the costs


But the complaint was made about how WE build down here.

Even looking at Canada, I doubt the difference would even be noticeable.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> You just don’t get it, Hack. The difference is substantial in terms of energy efficiency, comfort and air quality (health). The NRC studies aren’t skewed because we have decades of practical experience.
> 
> I can’t put it any other way. We have lived it both ways. You haven’t.


Your studies are all skewed and biased. Just like all studies. Next you are going to say how the global warming studies are all accurate and unbiased.

You have not lived the way our current construction is. And as far as air quality, that requires energy to artificially make it.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

99cents said:


> If a Canadian is cold, he puts on a sweater  .


No. If a Canadian is cold, he moves to Florida, and then Hawaii and leaves all the stupid ones behind to freeze.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

99cents said:


> The difference is substantial in terms of energy efficiency, comfort and air quality (health). The NRC studies aren’t skewed because we have decades of practical experience.
> 
> I can’t put it any other way. We have lived it both ways. You haven’t.


This was directed at Hackworth but...

Just so we're on the same page - for at least 30 years in the US, we've been pretty gung ho on insulation in residential construction, including framing houses with 2x6s, etc. Also dryvit with exterior foam board on top of the 2x6 insulation has been pretty popular at least 20 years. 

Around here - people very often upgrade, live in older starter homes when they're young, then build their dream custom home much larger and see much smaller heat bills in the bigger more modern house. 

We just haven't been as gung ho with the vapor barrier, although we're pretty gung ho with the moisture barrier and caulking the daylights out of the exterior envelope. I haven't worked on a custom home that wasn't framed with 2x6's in quite a while. 

As far as air quality - honestly I think the drafty old places have better air quality than the tight knit modern boxes. We have no smog here, letting in outdoor air is considered pleasant  

The thing I am skeptical about is the difference between a decent vapor barrier and a maxed out vapour barrier, and even more so, the importance of tiny defects in the vapor barrier. When a building is sealed up enough that you have to blow in makeup air, what's the difference if you blow in 10000 cubic feet per day with a great vapor barrier, or you blow in 9000 cubic feet per day with 1000 coming in past the vapor barrier? Houses are not sealed up like submarines. 

Unless you've lived in a well insulated house with a perfect Canadian style vapour barrier, and an identical well insulated house with a so-so US style vapor barrier, you haven't lived an apples to apples comparison, so it's unlikely anyone will change their mind over anecdotal info.


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## B-Nabs (Jun 4, 2014)

I was under the impression one of the big reasons for tight vapour barrier was the mitigation of mold growth due to condensation caused by cool air meeting warm surfaces. The idea being (I thought) that the house should be as close to air tight as possible so that condensation doesn't happen on organic materials (paper, wood) and therefore mold doesn't grow, then air intake is handled in a controlled manner through something like an HRV or at least a duct heater, so the incoming air is conditioned to the interior temperature. 

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

99cents said:


> If a Canadian is cold, he puts on a sweater  .


See that is a prime example of conservative logic....I knew you weren't a troll.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

just the cowboy said:


> When I was an apprentice a long time ago I was told
> " If you can't proudly do a job and put your name on it don't do it"
> I still go by this.
> 
> ...


I learned that same way and tried to instill that same philosophy in my kids.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

splatz said:


> This was directed at Hackworth but...
> 
> Just so we're on the same page - for at least 30 years in the US, we've been pretty gung ho on insulation in residential construction, including framing houses with 2x6s, etc. Also dryvit with exterior foam board on top of the 2x6 insulation has been pretty popular at least 20 years.
> 
> ...


This is an absolutely excellent post. The information is both reasonable and factual. It’s well written and easy to understand.

But the two Canadian trolls will just tell you how studies say what they do is so much better and blah blah blah blah blah.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> This is an absolutely excellent post. The information is both reasonable and factual. It’s well written and easy to understand.
> 
> But the two Canadian trolls will just tell you how studies say what they do is so much better and blah blah blah blah blah.


Except we’re not trolling.

Would you be capable on intelligent conversation if we had the Stars and Stripes tattooed to our asses?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> Except we’re not trolling.
> 
> Would you be capable on intelligent conversation if we had the Stars and Stripes tattooed to our asses?


I have intelligent conversations every day while you are coming close to 360max's ratio of 99.9 garbage posts to .1 normal post. 

Nothing you brought up in this thread was sensible or realistic. Just some off-base guesses about new home construction in the US. 

I think it's time you go complain about Trump some more.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> I have intelligent conversations every day while you are coming close to 360max's ratio of 99.9 garbage posts to .1 normal post.
> 
> Nothing you brought up in this thread was sensible or realistic. Just some off-base guesses about new home construction in the US.
> 
> I think it's time you go complain about Trump some more.


Who made you the site censor? You’re the last person around here I would listen to when it comes to what I can and cannot post.

Did I damage your tender little ego, Hack?


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> This is an absolutely excellent post. The information is both reasonable and factual. It’s well written and easy to understand.
> 
> But the two Canadian trolls will just tell you how studies say what they do is so much better and blah blah blah blah blah.


We draw fresh air into the home in a controlled manner. No doubt drafty homes have excellent air exchange but it also creates the need for spot heating in peripheral rooms.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Let me get this straight. The site rules are now:

CT has now become the DJT Idol Worship Club.

Electrical posts must now be cleared through Hack.

Have I got that right?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Can you keep your trolling in the Controversial section please 360, I mean 99cents?


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## farmantenna (Nov 22, 2012)

catsparky1 said:


> If it is a custom we do what we are paid to do . If it is a tract you get what the minimum that we can do to make the most money . I care less about space heaters and window units . When you buy mass produced housing you get a garbage house and you can pay a stupid amount in extras for us to do what you want . The last time I checked we are here to make money so I aint giving you anything more that what I have to .
> 
> Now with customs when you hire us we sit down with the customer and go over what you want and what you need . Although one power circuit per 500 square is more than adequate in most cases . Power and lighting are always separated in customs but not in tracts .
> 
> If it is an apartment . Well ha ha ha ha ha ha giggle we do what we can get away with . If 3/4 of the pad is on one breaker with 50 recepts on it and another circuit with 2 recepts on it oh well . Right now we are doing a 90 unit loft set up section 8 housing garbage . I told the boys if I see a tape measure you're fired . Blow and go don't care if the lights are lined up or if counter plugs look like the waves at north shore . It is gov funded dirt bag housing and I could careless what the fools living there think . PW resi is awesome . Ten units every 5 days . One more week of rough in left and we are at less that 40% of bid labor . Im getting a huge bonus at the end of this one .


Prevailing wage? no specifications? anyone as clerk of works inspecting?


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## farmantenna (Nov 22, 2012)

manchestersparky said:


> When I wired my house each bedroom got its own receptacle circuit. Each of the bathrooms got their own circuit. The lights are not on the receptacle circuit. WHY ??
> 
> I have 2 daughters and a wife. You say SO ????
> 
> ...


separating lights and receptacles also minimizes actually seeing the voltage dropping when those hair dryers are turned on


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

farmantenna said:


> separating lights and receptacles also minimizes actually seeing the voltage dropping when those hair dryers are turned on


I think it's the best way to wire up a job.

In addition I wire everything in 20 amp circuits rather than 15.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

MechanicalDVR said:


> farmantenna said:
> 
> 
> > separating lights and receptacles also minimizes actually seeing the voltage dropping when those hair dryers are turned on
> ...


I like that idea, but here we would have to use 20 amp rated (t-slot) receptacles on 20 amp circuits by code. Not a big deal but they do cost more


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> Can you keep your trolling in the Controversial section please 360, I mean 99cents?


Who made you the site cop or did you just appoint yourself?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> Who made you the site cop or did you just appoint yourself?


You’re on thin ice buddy.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> You’re on thin ice buddy.


Really? Are you the new hall monitor? Are you going to tell the teacher on me?


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

99cents said:


> Really? Are you the new hall monitor? Are you going to tell the teacher on me?


He did. That's why I'm here. Settle down or there will be consequences.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Consequences from Hack’s alter ego. How many ID’s do you...erm..._two_ have?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

So you’re not going to stop trolling?


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> So you’re not going to stop trolling?


Are you going to stop being three people?

Hackwork
Lanarco 
Will

Do I have them all?


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

99cents said:


> Consequences from Hack’s alter ego. How many ID’s do you...erm..._two_ have?


Playing with fire pal... keep this up and see what happens.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

CoolWill said:


> Playing with fire pal... keep this up and see what happens.


I can take on all (three) of you. Hit me with your best shot. Make it good.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

99cents said:


> I can take on all (three) of you. Hit me with your best shot. Make it good.


You're used to taking on three guys at once.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

CoolWill said:


> You're used to taking on three guys at once.


That’s all you have? Pathetic. Try again, Hack.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

99cents said:


> That’s all you have? Pathetic. Try again, Hack.


What, are you expecting? Anal?


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

I’m getting bored with this. You’re not even trying. When do you switch to Hack?


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

99cents said:


> I’m getting bored with this. You’re not even trying. When do you switch to Hack?


I don't have to try. You troll yourself. I'm just here to settle this down. Now go take a nap.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

CoolWill said:


> I don't have to try. You troll yourself. I'm just here to settle this down. Now go take a nap.


It’s you (two) who are putting me to sleep. Boring. At least Hack got busted but it’s no secret around here that he has multiple personalities anyway.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

99cents said:


> It’s you (two) who are putting me to sleep. Boring. At least Hack got busted but it’s no secret around here that he has multiple personalities anyway.


MTW will be along shortly to hand you your azz.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

99cents said:


> It’s you (two) who are putting me to sleep. Boring. At least Hack got busted but it’s no secret around here that he has multiple personalities anyway.


Aids.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

mtw said:


> Gay AIDS.


fify


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Hack/Lanarco/Will and his redarted little brother MTW. Is this a one or two person circle jerk?


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

99cents said:


> Hack/Lanarco/Will and his redarted little brother MTW. *Can I join this circle jerk?*


99... I thought you said we were exclusive?


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

coolwill said:


> i don't have to try. You troll yourself. I'm just here to settle this down. Now go take a *cold shower*.


fify


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

99cents said:


> Hack/Lanarco/Will and his redarted little brother MTW. Is this a one or two person circle jerk?


You just wait until Sbrn33 hears about this:vs_mad:


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

If you talk to 20 people or read 20 articles about this you'll get 20 different explanations. 

Everyone seems to agree that the vapor tends to travel from the warm areas to the cool areas and if it can't get out of the cool area it can condense, collect, and grow mold. And of course everyone agrees you have to keep the rain out. 

In hot humid weather the vapor is trying to get in, in cold weather it's trying to get out. In the southeast, the vapor barrier should be on the outside, mild middle climates, in the cold climates, it should be on the inside, and in the mild middle climates, no vapor barrier. 

In cold climates they usually put the insulation on the walls and ceilings with the paper stapled inside. The house's Tyvek wrap moisture barrier is water tight and tied into flashings etc. to keep the rain out, but it is permeable, like Gore Tex to let vapor escape. 

I couldn't even guess how many fiberglass insulated exterior walls I've opened over the years, old houses, new houses, commercial buildings, thousands, with just the stapled paper as the vapor barrier. It's very unusual to find mold, and if you do, you'll find a roof leak, a plumbing leak, or something nearby. 

So when I hear people worrying about sealing a 1" slit in a vapor barrier to pass a cable through ...  



B-Nabs said:


> I was under the impression one of the big reasons for tight vapour barrier was the mitigation of mold growth due to condensation caused by cool air meeting warm surfaces. The idea being (I thought) that the house should be as close to air tight as possible so that condensation doesn't happen on organic materials (paper, wood) and therefore mold doesn't grow, then air intake is handled in a controlled manner through something like an HRV or at least a duct heater, so the incoming air is conditioned to the interior temperature.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

eddy current said:


> When I said old I’m referring to one built in the 80’s. Only difference is in the vapour barrier and insulation. The cost is not much different. How much do you think 2 x 6’s for exterior walls cost compared to 2 x 4’s, plus A roll of plastic and thicker insulation?
> 
> What if you did the same thing here in Canada? The end result would be very different and it would not take a long time to cover the costs


Eddy...as an electrician who wires new homes , I can tell you
I have not seen a new construction home here with exterior walls
built in 2x4's. They are all 2x6 exterior walls so that the Insualtions 
R value can be better , making the homes better insulated.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

MechanicalDVR said:


> I think it's the best way to wire up a job.
> 
> In addition I wire everything in 20 amp circuits rather than 15.


I wire lights in 15. Receptacles in 20.
Iknow...some say thats a waste , but eff it. I'm getting paid.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

lighterup said:


> Eddy...as an electrician who wires new homes , I can tell you
> I have not seen a new construction home here with exterior walls
> built in 2x4's. They are all 2x6 exterior walls so that the Insualtions
> R value can be better , making the homes better insulated.


Of course. The two of them didn't know how well our new homes are sealed/insulated, but it didn't stop them from spouting off to begin with. You'll notice how as soon as splatz informed them of the truth neither one of them commented on it again- because they knew they were dead in the water. Atleast Eddy was smart enough to keep his head down, 99cents reverted back to his normal trolling.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

HackWork said:


> Of course. The two of them didn't know how well our new homes are sealed/insulated, but it didn't stop them from spouting off to begin with. You'll notice how as soon as splatz informed them of the truth neither one of them commented on it again- because they knew they were dead in the water. Atleast Eddy was smart enough to keep his head down, 99cents reverted back to his normal trolling.


I think the whole premis of our houses are better then yours was based on this, but I could be wrong. It wouldn't be the first time.

Common Flyboy! Bring it!


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

MechanicalDVR said:


> I think it's the best way to wire up a job.
> 
> In addition I wire everything in 20 amp circuits rather than 15.


Surely if everything wired in #12 is "better, then #6 must be the chit. Why not use 6-2 everywhere?


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

On another note...the last couple pages were better then talk radio.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

CoolWill said:


> Surely if everything wired in #12 is "better, then #6 must be the chit. Why not use 6-2 everywhere?


it won't fit on the devices


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

lighterup said:


> I think the whole premis of our houses are better then yours was based on this, but I could be wrong. It wouldn't be the first time.
> 
> Common Flyboy! Bring it!


The problem is that some Canadians spend their entire life living in our shadow and can never get us out of their mind. Everything they think about or talk about has to include us. And to feel better about themselves they have to try to beat us down. It's sad really.

Of course that's only a few, the rest of the Canadians are awesome :biggrin:


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

lighterup said:


> it won't fit on the devices


But it's better, so they make crimp lugs that would work. 4-11/16 box with mudring and 6-2 MC is how I wire all my devices.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

CoolWill said:


> But it's better, so they make crimp lugs that would work. 4-11/16 box with mudring and 6-2 MC is how I wire all my devices.


oh! well then I'm gonna start doing that!! Thanx:vs_laugh:


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

HackWork said:


> The problem is that some Canadians spend their entire life living in our shadow and can never get us out of their mind. Everything they think about or talk about has to include us. And to feel better about themselves they have to try to beat us down. It's sad really.
> 
> Of course that's only a few, the rest of the Canadians are awesome :biggrin:


The population of Canada is the same as California (or damn close) ,
so trying to compare our 2 countries and how much more efficient
Canada is vs the US is kind of silly.

Just the amount of homes being built up there vs here isn't even comparible so of course it's going to be easier for them. They don't have the burden of materials volume and cost that we have for one thing.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

HackWork said:


> Of course. The two of them didn't know how well our new homes are sealed/insulated, but it didn't stop them from spouting off to begin with. You'll notice how as soon as splatz informed them of the truth neither one of them commented on it again- because they knew they were dead in the water. *Atleast Eddy was smart enough to keep his head down*, 99cents reverted back to his normal trolling.


Sorry, unlike some hear I have to work every day :wink:


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

eddy current said:


> Sorry, unlike some hear I have to work every day :wink:


I actually have heard that.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

eddy current said:


> Sorry, unlike some hear I have to work every day :wink:


When I said that you "kept your head down", I meant that you were still making posts (such as about the 20A outlet), but wouldn't speak about the difference in houses from US to CA because you got your ass handed to you and you knew your were hit. You just ignored it completely.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> Of course. The two of them didn't know how well our new homes are sealed/insulated, but it didn't stop them from spouting off to begin with. You'll notice how as soon as splatz informed them of the truth neither one of them commented on it again- because they knew they were dead in the water. Atleast Eddy was smart enough to keep his head down, 99cents reverted back to his normal trolling.


Actually, I did respond but your multiple personalities were too busy jerking themselves off to notice.

I have seen people here asking about something as simple as maintaining VB integrity with device boxes. We have our solutions but apparently they are “biased and excessive”.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

HackWork said:


> When I said that you "kept your head down", I meant that you were still making posts (such as about the 20A outlet), but wouldn't speak about the difference in houses from US to CA because you got your ass handed to you and you knew your were hit. You just ignored it completely.


No, my opinion is still the same. Mainly due to the personal experiences I’ve had living in different types, styles and constructions of homes in the same city.

Yes I still posted here and there in between my busy schedule, but I don’t have the time or interest to have a discussion with you or any of your other profiles :wink:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I’m taking a dump right now. I’m naming it “the domestic partnership of Eddy and 99cents”.


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## trentonmakes (Mar 21, 2017)

HackWork said:


> I’m taking a dump right now. I’m naming it “the domestic partnership of Eddy and 99cents”.


Flush n Flow.....The Toilet Twins

Sent from my LG-K550 using Tapatalk


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

eddy current said:


> I like that idea, but here we would have to use 20 amp rated (t-slot) receptacles on 20 amp circuits by code. Not a big deal but they do cost more


It's allowed down here.

When you pigtail receptacles I don't see why you'd have to use 20 amp devices.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

HackWork said:


> You’re on thin ice buddy.


Global warming?


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

lighterup said:


> I wire lights in 15. Receptacles in 20.
> Iknow...some say thats a waste , but eff it. I'm getting paid.


I do 20 for both, it's what I planned to do, it lets me carry just #12 romex. I like simple. 

I also like lights and smokes on the same circuit, if you have lights you have smokes.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

CoolWill said:


> Surely if everything wired in #12 is "better, then #6 must be the chit. Why not use 6-2 everywhere?


No need to be ridiculous.

You don't kill deer with a .17HMR (even though it would be fine) nor a .50BMG, you need to be in the mid range.

I love the fact I have never had a call back on any of my workmanship or methods of doing things.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

MechanicalDVR said:


> No need to be ridiculous.
> 
> You don't kill deer with a .17HMR (even though it would be fine) nor a .50BMG, you need to be in the mid range.
> 
> I love the fact I have never had a call back on any of my workmanship or methods of doing things.


If you shoot a really big bullet, doesn’t that make instant deer burger, Mech ?


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

99cents said:


> If you shoot a really big bullet, doesn’t that make instant deer burger, Mech ?


Oh hell yeah it could!

A .50 BMG in a dead on head shot could gut your deer for you of course it may also be turned inside out...

While illegal I have heard of guys doing head shots with a .17HMR and it's a nice clean kill with absolute minimal damage.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

CoolWill said:


> But it's better, so they make crimp lugs that would work. 4-11/16 box with mudring and 6-2 MC is how I wire all my devices.



Child's play. I install 6X6X3.5" custom made boxes and mud rings from Milbank. It allows me to install 1.25" conduit between all devices.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

MTW said:


> Child's play. I install 6X6X3.5" custom made boxes and mud rings from Milbank. It allows me to install 1.25" conduit between all devices.


You live in an area that can command higher standards. Where I live, the bare minimum is 8-2. I use 6-2. But I hear some really fancy franchise guys use robroy and silver conductors.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

CoolWill said:


> You live in an area that can command higher standards. Where I live, the bare minimum is 8-2. I use 6-2. But I hear some really fancy franchise guys use robroy and silver conductors.


I've heard of those guys. They charge $18,000 for a 200 amp upgrade. They fabricate custom made panels on site.


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