# Residential Bids



## rnr electric

i am looking for opinions on bidding residential homes. for 15 years i have bid all my res. work on a sq. ft. basis. My older brother also owns an E/C business and he swears by doing a take off (per drop).We both work in the same area and our numbers are consistently very very close to the others. he says that the numbers wont lie,but i maintain that some houses are far more "cut-up" and more custom and therefore warrant a higher price per sq.ft.. Also keep in mind that he does a lower quality of homes than i do,so maybe his is the way to go for him,but not for me. I am just putting this out there for fresh insight from others.Thanks


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## Jcode

My step dad has told me how you can do a sq foot price and that'll work but he will sit for a few hours with a print, lay out the house and do his bidding off that. He won't go strictly by code minimum (who wants an outlet only every 12' in a bedroom?). He will leave some room for over head. But me and him are the ones that do the work so bidding labor is easy as we both are consistant in our speed. He's been doing it for bit over 20 years, about 12 of that owning his own small buisness with Masters.

We are known in this area for being a little pricey but do excellent work (dont we all :whistling2, and local contractors will explain this to home owners if need be, that we are little pricier for a reason. If he wins the bid (which we haven't always been cheapest and still got the house thanks to the reputation we got), he walks through with the home owner and will normally get extra's out of them.

If he's a little higher in price, he can actually break down why since he has laid out the house already on print. Give a count of all the devices, estimated wire and labor. Only done to code minimum if says to in bid.

It works out so good, we've had the cheapest guys local only get houses before us because they begged for them. Dead serious :thumbup:. Then sadly we actually end up coming behind them to finish sometimes because the HO/GC is unhappy with their work.

(side note: We live in a very small area. Entire population of the area, ohh about 40 sq miles we cover, is maybe 35,000 people guessing. So word of mouth and reputation go quite far. sometimes farther than the dollar amount on the bid)


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## rnr electric

oh believe me, i have built my whole business on word of mouth and could not agree more. i really dont bid jobs much any more but rather give prices. most of my clients are long time customers that i have had for years, they know that i am pricey but my crews are highly skilled and well paid. i dont back charge (much), but if its a legitimate change order then i charge for it,but that is seldom. when you add 3000 onto a price/bid because you know that you will make 30 trips to hang back ordered lights from Itally it worries me that if they get competetive bids i am ALLWAYS higher. but i figure in 30 trips back,decorators,shifting lighting due to changing ceiling layouts etc.after 27 yrs in the business i can tell you roughly what a job should cost by lookin at it.sounds like yall have about the same system as i dogood to hear its working for you too!!


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## Jcode

I can relate to going back for moving/shifting/changing/back ordered lights. We do have to deal with a lot of back ordered items up here. Nothing (for the most part) can be bought local. Biggest chain we got is a Walmart. Otherwise buying from mom and pop joints. So we end up with several trips back on occasion and he'll do his best to eat the cost unless its legitimately got to be charged for it. Our item, not charged, theres he'll give some slack if they are willing to work with when we come back. If we got a few more breakers to land or a island plug to put in, we'll schedule that with when the lights come in.

Kind of cool to hear relatively similar style of work is going on 2000 miles south. :thumbup:


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## B4T

I can't see how anyone can price a house by the square foot unless they are installing the carpet.. 

Unit pricing is the right way to price out a job and not lose money dong it.. :thumbsup:


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## rnr electric

how would you do it,this is what im lookin for. somebody with a different oppinion


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## rnr electric

i want to understand correctly. a $55 dollar drop fee for a receptacle in a house in one neighborhood is the same in another neighborhood?


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## rnr electric

Jcode. nice pic.. im about 9 hrs north of Miami. gulf coast near panama city


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## B4T

I have always used unit pricing to figure residential and commercial jobs..

You list every single electrical component, motor, heater, smoke, GFI, circuits, recessed lights, surface mounted lights..etc..

Then figure a price per item and use that as a template to figure your bid..

Jobs with cathedral ceilings are more labor intensive, so you raise the prices for those kind of jobs..


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## rnr electric

I understand what you are saying,but isnt it "the same thing only different"?. you say you adjust your unit price as per layout. i.e., vaulted ceilings,cut up ceilings,off walls,etc.
i say i adjust my prices by the same standards, but i just adjust from 3.25 a sq. ft. to 6.50 a sq ft. 
in other words, neither of us take a wire measurement and go with it,but rather go with what feels right and fair,so as not to take advantage of our customers,at the same time not lose money.


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## rnr electric

By the way, i allways use unit pricing on commercial jobs.. totally agree here. Commercial jobs allway seem to have a higher margin of profit and seem to have less C/O's, also they usally have more stringent budget guidelines and are not as prone to as many changes.


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## rnr electric

Just curious, you said you make note of "every single electrical component" how do you accomodate for panel location changes,door swing changes,(changes sw.locations),decorators, engineers,etc.?. i know every pool panel changes locations 3 times before acutual install here, same with a/c's. This changes wire length,digging time,pipe length etc.


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## B4T

rnr electric said:


> Just curious, you said you make note of "every single electrical component" how do you accomodate for panel location changes,door swing changes,(changes sw.locations),decorators, engineers,etc.?. i know every pool panel changes locations 3 times before acutual install here, same with a/c's. This changes wire length,digging time,pipe length etc.


Always a separate price on services and pools since each job is different than the next..

I include "builders fixtures" with my bid.. custom fixture installations are extra since "some assembly is required".. 

Locations are taken off the house plans.. if that changes, the price is easily adjusted up or down..


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## Jcode

One of our GC that sub to us, they are always more expensive than the others. But thats because they allow some good wiggle room for changes for the HO without the price of the original bid going up.

So if they are $3000 more than the other guy. When the home owner inevitably changes doors/windows/cabinets/flooring/etc, they bid is still X while the next guy's original bid has now gone up. By time the project is done, GC #2 has gone 4.5k aboe original bid while our 1st GC here only went 1.5k. It's worked for them for many many years.

Now as far as us dealing with changes, can't really say for sure because I'm not the one bidding. But being a little pricier in the first place, kind of got the same idea going on as the GC, but ours isn't so much as intentional. I do know we have had to discuss with HO/GC on some changes that are to much for us to foot. A door swing changes, happens so often no big deal. Moving a panel 30 feet away, well we have to let them know that wasn't in original bid.


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## B4T

rnr electric said:


> I understand what you are saying,but isnt it "the same thing only different"?. you say you adjust your unit price as per layout. i.e., vaulted ceilings,cut up ceilings,off walls,etc.
> i say i adjust my prices by the same standards, but i just adjust from 3.25 a sq. ft. to 6.50 a sq ft.
> in other words, neither of us take a wire measurement and go with it,but rather go with what feels right and fair,so as not to take advantage of our customers,at the same time not lose money.


Say a customer adds closet florescent lights and switches.. (10) recessed lights.. (3) dimmers..

All those items have to be figured separately anyway because your sq. ft. price can't allow for add ons..


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## Jcode

B4T said:


> Always a separate price on services and pools since each job is different than the next..


Interesting. Our bids include permit cost, inspection cost, and service along with the general house wiring. If it matters any, step dad will call local power company (UPPCO or REA) and sometimes inspector to square away [Edit: If he has too. and of course working with whatever is on plans] where service is going. He's on first name basis with a good handful of office guys and field guys at UPPCO for this reason. REA we don't deal with much, and they are little more fussy (and smaller).


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## B4T

Jcode said:


> One of our GC that sub to us, they are always more expensive than the others. But thats because they allow some good wiggle room for changes for the HO without the price of the original bid going up.
> 
> So if they are $3000 more than the other guy. When the home owner inevitably changes doors/windows/cabinets/flooring/etc, they bid is still X while the next guy's original bid has now gone up. By time the project is done, GC #2 has gone 4.5k aboe original bid while our 1st GC here only went 1.5k. It's worked for them for many many years.
> 
> Now as far as us dealing with changes, can't really say for sure because I'm not the one bidding. But being a little pricier in the first place, kind of got the same idea going on as the GC, but ours isn't so much as intentional. I do know we have had to discuss with HO/GC on some changes that are to much for us to foot. A door swing changes, happens so often no big deal. Moving a panel 30 feet away, well we have to let them know that wasn't in original bid.


IMO.. that just seems like a fast way of losing a bid by figuring "wiggle room" into the price..

If customer is looking only at the bottom line.. you lose..

Just seems better to give a firm price on the plans given to you and leave any change orders as an extra charge..


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## MDShunk

Go to the supply house and order 2000 square feet of romex and 500 square feet of can lights. :laughing: No, better yet, just sell me all the material for a 1,600 square foot rancher, please. They should have that already kitted up, right down to exactly how many wire nuts. It works out perfect for every house. :jester:


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## B4T

MDShunk said:


> Go to the supply house and order 2000 square feet of romex and 500 square feet of can lights. :laughing: No, better yet, just sell me all the material for a 1,600 square foot rancher, please. They should have that already kitted up, right down to exactly how many wire nuts. It works out perfect for every house. :jester:


LMAO.. :laughing:


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## rnr electric

O.K., Jcode,(or anybody) our bidding practices a very similar. here is exactly what i do, tell me if it makes sense.(regular customers only).
1) look at plans, determine how "cut up" the house is.
2) i usually take sq. ft.x 6.50 or so/45.00 per 6"can (65.00)per 4"can (standard step baffle trims)
3) add porches and decks @ 2.50 to 3.50 sq.ft. because anymore there is as much going on on decks as inside house
4)specialty wiring,Control4,RadioRA,Lightning protection,etc,etc...
5)add up,IF IT LOOKS RIGHT, then go with it, IF NOT I ALLWAYS REVIEW.
now all this being said,most of my work is ultra custom customers.I have spent 15 yrs. so i can have a little fun with it and now we only do the high end jobs.(still have a couple crews doing lower end and service work), but most of my work for 5 or so yrs is custom.
does this look right as far as pricing?. i havent lost money yet,(knock on wood). But i am allways wondering how the other guys do it, By the way have they moved yall to the 2011 code yet?. got hit with it this february,Kinda sucks.


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## MDShunk

rnr electric said:


> O.K., Jcode,(or anybody) our bidding practices a very similar. here is exactly what i do, tell me if it makes sense.(regular customers only).
> 1) look at plans, determine how "cut up" the house is.
> 2) i usually take sq. ft.x 6.50 or so/45.00 per 6"can (65.00)per 4"can (standard step baffle trims)
> 3) add porches and decks @ 2.50 to 3.50 sq.ft. because anymore there is as much going on on decks as inside house
> 4)specialty wiring,Control4,RadioRA,Lightning protection,etc,etc...
> 5)add up,IF IT LOOKS RIGHT, then go with it, IF NOT I ALLWAYS REVIEW.
> now all this being said,most of my work is ultra custom customers.I have spent 15 yrs. so i can have a little fun with it and now we only do the high end jobs.(still have a couple crews doing lower end and service work), but most of my work for 5 or so yrs is custom.
> does this look right as far as pricing?. i havent lost money yet,(knock on wood). But i am allways wondering how the other guys do it, By the way have they moved yall to the 2011 code yet?. got hit with it this february,Kinda sucks.


Your accountant would tell you you're nuts. As far a duplicability (could you teach someone to do your job, like McDonald's has made all of their jobs simple and repeatable)? No way in hell. Your estimating method is highly visceral, and as such should be disregarded entirely.


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## rnr electric

MD,
Every print is different, can you tell me exactly how many feet of wire you will use on your next house??,better yet tell me exactly how many wire nuts,boxes,how many circuits are you gonna have,when the h/o says change all ceiling fans to fan with lights does this change the 2 gang count or the three gang count that is where experience comes into play and you can look at a house and say 13,000 feet of 12/2, 3500ft 12/3, and 90% of the time i am spot on,not saying i dont eat it sometimes but for the most part im right there.


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## MDShunk

rnr electric said:


> MD,
> Every print is different, can you tell me exactly how many feet of wire you will use on your next house??,better yet tell me exactly how many wire nuts,boxes,how many circuits are you gonna have,when the h/o says change all ceiling fans to fan with lights does this change the 2 gang count or the three gang count that is where experience comes into play and you can look at a house and say 13,000 feet of 12/2, 3500ft 12/3, and 90% of the time i am spot on,not saying i dont eat it sometimes but for the most part im right there.


Your estimating procedure relies on YOU. Glad it's working out. To grow a business worth a damn, you need to work ON your business, not IN your business. Estimating as you do, you're a vital piece of the business puzzle. If you teach someone to do an accurate takeoff and work a calculator, you can take yourself out of the process and still end up with equally accurate bids.


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## Jcode

I read a post while digging around just checking out info on things. The guy mentioned how this board is becoming less informative and more of a chatroom with lot of bantering and bashing going around...

Seems kind of void to tell someone they should be disregarding when for 20 years it's worked fine:whistling2:

I think its a tough question for anyone to understand others views because it can depend on how they do it in the area. Here a hand shake and word of mouth goes as far as a formal bid. Others would consider us hacks because of it. 

Anyhow, if the bidding is tight/needs to be tight, naturally it get bids just that. Truthfully this is 80% of the time. If the seasons going good, he'll bid like he normally does. By wiggle room I don't mean another 500-1000 dollars on a 4000 project. I mean couple hundred bucks at best. Usually just about half a days of extra work at worst preparing for the back ordered items or for the changes we'll face.

Along with the idea of sq foot bidding, whats it matter if its done that way? My step dad has competed with good friends down state that did this and they got along just fine. He's mentioned, well pobably in prior code cycles, that he could calculate a house and put in circuits by square foot area and not by rooms/lighting. Course its changed since then but point being, square footage was common place even in circuit loading.


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## B4T

rnr electric said:


> O.K., Jcode,(or anybody) our bidding practices a very similar. here is exactly what i do, tell me if it makes sense.(regular customers only).
> 1) look at plans, determine how "cut up" the house is.
> 2) i usually take sq. ft.x 6.50 or so/45.00 per 6"can (65.00)per 4"can (standard step baffle trims)
> 3) add porches and decks @ 2.50 to 3.50 sq.ft. because anymore there is as much going on on decks as inside house
> 4)specialty wiring,Control4,RadioRA,Lightning protection,etc,etc...
> 5)add up,IF IT LOOKS RIGHT, then go with it, IF NOT I ALLWAYS REVIEW.
> now all this being said,most of my work is ultra custom customers.I have spent 15 yrs. so i can have a little fun with it and now we only do the high end jobs.(still have a couple crews doing lower end and service work), but most of my work for 5 or so yrs is custom.
> does this look right as far as pricing?. i havent lost money yet,(knock on wood). But i am allways wondering how the other guys do it, By the way have they moved yall to the 2011 code yet?. got hit with it this february,Kinda sucks.


You are making this far more complicated than it has to be.. :no:

I bet you have a spreadsheet and some formulas in case they want decora devices..

Unit pricing is a fool proof method as long as you plug in the right numbers..


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## rnr electric

I know the concept of duplicability, however, how do you raise your pricing for a cut up house?. or an even more cut up house, or even worse?. what is your system that is so cut and dry that when you see a house that is off the charts that you say i have the exact right number for this, you tell me that you raise or lower your prices due to how rough the house looks but offer no insight ( but rather insults) to how you come up with an adjusted per unit number for it.?


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## MDShunk

rnr electric said:


> I know the concept of duplicability, however, how do you raise your pricing for a cut up house?. or an even more cut up house, or even worse?. what is your system that is so cut and dry that when you see a house that is off the charts that you say i have the exact right number for this, you tell me that you raise or lower your prices due to how rough the house looks but offer no insight ( but rather insults) to how you come up with an adjusted per unit number for it.?


It was not my intention to offer any further insight, but rather discredit your ridiculous method that relies on gut feelings and a call or two to the psychic hotline.


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## rnr electric

Decora, is another story.
i add 5% on job cost right off the bat (does not include dimmers),more expensive, more labor intensive(harder to get straight), just pure ugly and should charge 20% cause i dont like them


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## B4T

Jcode said:


> Seems kind of void to tell someone they should be disregarding when for 20 years it's worked fine:whistling2:


How about he has been doing it wrong for (20) years.. IMO

Everything works fine till someone shows you an easier way.. :thumbsup:


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## MDShunk

B4T said:


> How about he has been doing it wrong for (20) years.. IMO
> 
> Everything works fine till someone shows you an easier way.. :thumbsup:


Guy I used to work with would often say that even a blind squirrel can find a nut.


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## B4T

rnr electric said:


> I know the concept of duplicability, however, *how do you raise your pricing for a cut up house*?. or an even more cut up house, or even worse?. what is your system that is so cut and dry that when you see a house that is off the charts that you say i have the exact right number for this, you tell me that you raise or lower your prices due to how rough the house looks but offer no insight ( but rather insults) to how you come up with an adjusted per unit number for it.?


When you have fixed unit prices, it is easy to make adjustments for job conditions..

Just add or subtract a couple of dollars per unit and problem solved..

Once you see the numbers are keeping you in the ballpark with other bidders.. you can alter certain items to become the winning bid..

Lowest price wins the prize.. sure it sucks.. but it won't change anytime soon..


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## B4T

MDShunk said:


> Guy I used to work with would often say that even a blind squirrel can find a nut.


I always say even a blind dog can find a bone once in a while..


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## robnj772

Jcode said:


> I read a post while digging around just checking out info on things. The guy mentioned how this board is becoming less informative and more of a chatroom with lot of bantering and bashing going around...
> 
> Seems kind of void to tell someone they should be disregarding when for 20 years it's worked fine:whistling2:
> 
> I think its a tough question for anyone to understand others views because it can depend on how they do it in the area. Here a hand shake and word of mouth goes as far as a formal bid. Others would consider us hacks because of it.
> 
> Anyhow, if the bidding is tight/needs to be tight, naturally it get bids just that. Truthfully this is 80% of the time. If the seasons going good, he'll bid like he normally does. By wiggle room I don't mean another 500-1000 dollars on a 4000 project. I mean couple hundred bucks at best. Usually just about half a days of extra work at worst preparing for the back ordered items or for the changes we'll face.
> 
> Along with the idea of sq foot bidding, whats it matter if its done that way? My step dad has competed with good friends down state that did this and they got along just fine. He's mentioned, well pobably in prior code cycles, that he could calculate a house and put in circuits by square foot area and not by rooms/lighting. Course its changed since then but point being, square footage was common place even in circuit loading.


 
If you think this is true then try going over to Mike Holt's forum and inquire about your assine estimating procedure.

I am sure you will get the same response as you are getting here.

Seems you already have got estimating figured out and don't even want to listen to anyone telling you something different(always seems to be the case with guys that work for their daddies) 

So why are you even here old master estimator? Shouldn't you be out on your private yacht with all that money you made wiring houses at a buck fifty a sq foot?


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## mdfriday

rnr electric said:


> O.K., Jcode,(or anybody) our bidding practices a very similar. here is exactly what i do, tell me if it makes sense.(regular customers only).
> 1) look at plans, determine how "cut up" the house is.
> 2) i usually take sq. ft.x 6.50 or so/45.00 per 6"can (65.00)per 4"can (standard step baffle trims)
> 3) add porches and decks @ 2.50 to 3.50 sq.ft. because anymore there is as much going on on decks as inside house
> 4)specialty wiring,Control4,RadioRA,Lightning protection,etc,etc...
> 5)add up,IF IT LOOKS RIGHT, then go with it, IF NOT I ALLWAYS REVIEW.
> now all this being said,most of my work is ultra custom customers.I have spent 15 yrs. so i can have a little fun with it and now we only do the high end jobs.(still have a couple crews doing lower end and service work), but most of my work for 5 or so yrs is custom.
> does this look right as far as pricing?. i havent lost money yet,(knock on wood). But i am allways wondering how the other guys do it, By the way have they moved yall to the 2011 code yet?. got hit with it this february,Kinda sucks.


I just have one question, not to be rude, but if this is working so well for you, why do you care what everyone else is doing?

I do not square foot anything. As others have said, that is for flooring installers.

Commercial and custom houses need a complete take off. Unit pricing is hard to figure as your runs may be longer than an "average" house.

For a basic to semi custom I use unit pricing with built assemblies. For remodeling and custom residential and commercial work I do a complete take off with measured runs with a scalemaster. 

This has worked well for many years. It is how most people I know, and have learned from have been doing it for years.


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## captkirk

new resi is a fuc%[email protected] joke now. Guys are doing new homes for nothin......To bad because its one aspect of electrical work that I acually still enjoy doing....


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## Mr Rewire

captkirk said:


> new resi is a fuc%[email protected] joke now. Guys are doing new homes for nothin......To bad because its one aspect of electrical work that I acually still enjoy doing....


 The only money to be made on new resi is stripping the copper out at night :laughing:


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## Jcode

robnj772 said:


> If you think this is true then try going over to Mike Holt's forum and inquire about your assine estimating procedure.
> 
> I am sure you will get the same response as you are getting here.
> 
> Seems you already have got estimating figured out and don't even want to listen to anyone telling you something different(always seems to be the case with guys that work for their daddies)
> 
> So why are you even here old master estimator? Shouldn't you be out on your private yacht with all that money you made wiring houses at a buck fifty a sq foot?


You quoted the wrong person :laughing:. I already mentioned I don't bid (im apprenticing) and "we" don't do sq foot estimates. I've heard of it done, but not how we do it.

Think the hardest part for this place to do is realize their way isn't the best way for everyone...

Guess it doesn't surprise me. I'm young (25), im learning, but even in the field, I work with 4 different guys and every single one do it different than the other. And every single one refuses to change. Makes it hard for me because I have the way I learned but now have to adjust to 4 different levels because if I do it one way I'll get a look like im a complete idiot and they rearrange what I did (except one guy) . Sounds like same exact same thing poking around this forum. Disappointing actually. *shrugs*


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## jwjrw

I always break the job down to rooms and tasks. I figure what materials are needed to do each room or task. Total material plus mark up on parts and add labor to it. It ain't rocket science. That said I can give you a BALLPARK estimate based on the SQ footage of the house if it is a plain jane house.


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## Jcode

^ that is how step dad does it too. If someone just wants an idea he'll do a SQ foot calculatoin and call them back within 30 minutes. But making sure they understand how it's only BALLPARK with job unseen and plans not laid out (by him)


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## robnj772

Jcode said:


> You quoted the wrong person :laughing:. I already mentioned I don't bid (im apprenticing) and "we" don't do sq foot estimates. I've heard of it done, but not how we do it.


Nope I just re read it and I didn't quote the wrong person at all.

Seems like I hit the nail on the head actually


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## cthermond

I am new at bidding, and for me it's more practical to do it at a per unit cost. I factor in other things such as per homerun cost according the estimated amount of wire used for each home run etc. On my first room addition I was too low, I realized it after I started the job. I probably should have made twice as much as I made on that job, but I still made money. On my current room addition I did not have to compete for the job, so the price was negotiated so I feel good about the price. The remodel after that one will also be negotiated so I should get a decent price. I'll be bidding more jobs where I have to compete so I'll get a better idea of what a competitive price is.


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## Mike D

I have one builder I work for that I am able to use sqft pricing. He builds one type of house(a few different floor plans), we have wired them for the last 10 years. It only works because he and I know what is included and where the line is for "extras".

All others ar unit pricing deals.


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## Shockdoc

I can't see Sq footage bids profitable, many structures will differ, some might have more interior walls and more rooms in the shell calling for more outlets, switches, lights, smokes, etc. Others will have higher ceilings, slab floors, 12" on center framing. More work and wire. Sq. footage is only good for a rough quote bid. A point takeoff is the best way to maximize profit.


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## Jcode

robnj772 said:


> Nope I just re read it and I didn't quote the wrong person at all.
> 
> Seems like I hit the nail on the head actually


I have no idea what your rant was about then lol. Unless your first 2 sentences are directed at me. In which case why do I care if another forum can be just as bad?


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## robnj772

Jcode said:


> I have no idea what your rant was about then lol. Unless your first 2 sentences are directed at me. In which case why do I care if another forum can be just as bad?


 
You need to lay off the dope!!!


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## Jcode

Mature :laughing:


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## rnr electric

Jcode,
sorry i didnt mean to leave you with it,but had some weather last night and had to shut down. I didnt mean to start an arguement over the whole bidding topic,but rather get a little insight why one method was better or worse than the other. Mabey I am doing it wrong, but hey it has worked so far. You said that you are an apprentice, stick with it.The best advice i ever got was this, Just have fun with it


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## Jcode

I work for my step dad. He just bought a store to expand a little bit from another guy so theres different work coming in now. Picking up Solar jobs a little now, and gonna start poking around with motors. Me and him go out to work and Mom watches the store and then.

Being family owned, its been fun. Being my step dad is the Masters, he has always been good at teaching. Never cuts a corner no matter if it saves a half hour. He's there for the HO and not his bottom dollar. It's rubbed off on me. It feels great to work for a person that has high regards in the area. Not one of the ones thats cheap and has guys he pays under the table just to keep his bid lower (no insurance on them). I look forward to work no matter what the job. Having worked with the 3 other guys that came with the store purchase I've learned good and bad things. We have one guy, around 50, that stretches his hours, cuts corners on occasion, and have had calls from HO upset about him. Whats unfortunate is the way some of the guys that post here, I could easily mistake him as being the one replying :no:. He no has been permanently laid off and I'm taking his place. At 25 and apprenticing, im more valuable than 50 year old JM that has owned his own business for 8 years prior to living up here.

Always have been called level headed and very well tempered. I get humored by those that think they can get under my skin 

I've done it off and on since 2003 (summer work out of highschool, filler work when I needed money). Became full time in 05. Only sucky part is I havent started the school part. I have a lot of hours to be close to a JM license, but none of the 600hrs of schooling. Don't bother me though, Its not rewarding if it wasnt a challenge.


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## Jcode

Just as a side note. My step dad told me he's gotten more compliments from HO in the just 6 months than he's gotten in the 2 years from all the other 3 guys combined.

I enjoy what I do and the HO see's it. Even had one tell him I'm his future and to make sure I stick with it.


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## rnr electric

you have to love the job or move on,i grew up in an electrical family in Maine,my dad was an elec. engineer,owned a big e/c company and was on the state liscensing board. I absolutely hated electric work but somehow allways went back to it. went to school with no intentions of ever being an electrician,was a hunting guide,logger,roofer, just to name a few but allways relied on electrical to bail me out. at 30 i decided to take my florida exam,started a business and done fairly well.BUT.. I enjoy what i do now. i pick and choose who i work for (very important), i treat all my guys like family and they work hard for me. We do almost exclusively high end custom homes and im still learning everyday to keep up with technology.But now i have fun with it BIG DIFFERENCE


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## Jcode

Yup hated it at first too. Feet killed, thumbs hurt, wrist were sore, knees hurt. But when I fell back on it started to enjoy it. Don't come home nearly as sore anymore too. Unless for probably a decade before it catches up to me.


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## sparkey1305

Are 6 inch cans going for 45.00 in FL? So Cal is a lot higher. We have a guy out here doing them for 60.00 and the local contractors want to run him out of town. Try 125.00 for incandescent.


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## rnr electric

well im 41 now,just wrapped up a 6 story condo remodel with no elevator.. 84 units total, still have good legs,knees,and back. but one wrist does bother a little when cutting big wire. i feel pretty lucky overall. Just dont ever think you know it all, cause you dont,allways try to keep up with the times,and sometimes when the moon and stars lign up just right.. your helper is right and you are wrong. i know it sounds F/Upd but it does happen


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## rnr electric

I charge 45 for 6" Halo cans and 65 for 4" cans(standard stamped cone type baffle only). the 6" i have about 13 dollars invested,about 21 for 4". that is can trim and lamp


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## rnr electric

just curious,no hard numbers here. what does the average home go for in CA.
3500 sf,150 cans, 2 kitchens,400 amp svc minimum,no pool panels. lets call it mid custom.


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## rnr electric

by the way i have some lower end homes with competitive bids that my competition are selling 6" cans for 30 apiece, no kidding. i tell the contractors let him have it..
i can lose money hunting or fishing


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## ElectricJoeNJ

rnr electric said:


> Decora, is another story.
> i add 5% on job cost right off the bat (does not include dimmers),more expensive, more labor intensive(harder to get straight), just pure ugly and should charge 20% cause i dont like them


More labor intensive!!! Are you actually serious.


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## rnr electric

No i was kidding... if i was serious i would had said "seriously".
No seriously though, i find them more labor intensive ONLY because they are harder to get straight in cover plates, and quite honestly nobody in my area uses them and i have to order them,(dimmers,4ways,etc). i am talking switching only here though.(try to find a 4 gang decora plate in my area and you will soon be on my side
by the way, why all the negativity?.


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## cthermond

sparkey1305 said:


> Are 6 inch cans going for 45.00 in FL? So Cal is a lot higher. We have a guy out here doing them for 60.00 and the local contractors want to run him out of town. Try 125.00 for incandescent.


If the 60 includes material that's very low. I figure around 95 to 100 base price, that's with cheapest materials.


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## robnj772

cthermond said:


> If the 60 includes material that's very low. I figure around 95 to 100 base price, that's with cheapest materials.


 
This is why there is no money in new work residential anymore.

Guy's using sq foot,charging 45 a can,thinking they are making money.

You could make more money working at Walmart!


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## captkirk

jwjrw said:


> I always break the job down to rooms and tasks. I figure what materials are needed to do each room or task. Total material plus mark up on parts and add labor to it. It ain't rocket science. That said I can give you a BALLPARK estimate based on the SQ footage of the house if it is a plain jane house.


 yea I do that too. I go room by room on the print and I give the GC a totall breakdown for the job. THe room by room takeoff is more for me. And the GC's like the total breakdown. total s1 total s3 and so on.......

I personally dont know anyone that does square foot pricing....?

He op, if there is one thing Ive learned comming to these forums, you gotta have a thick skin and if you show fear or aggitation from posters beware, the Trolls will pounce on you.....Good luck.


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## rnr electric

i dont claim im setting the world on fire, but im makin a living. slightly better than wal mart. I bid probably 100 or more houses a year and my numbers are ALLWAYS right there with everybody else. im not saying that it is right or foolproof but it works for me. I do however agree with one thing you said, i have a very low tolerance for lowballers.Keep the market fair and competitive or get the @@#% out of it


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## robnj772

rnr electric said:


> i dont claim im setting the world on fire, but im makin a living. slightly better than wal mart. I bid probably 100 or more houses a year and my numbers are ALLWAYS right there with everybody else. im not saying that it is right or foolproof but it works for me. I do however agree with one thing you said, i have a very low tolerance for lowballers.Keep the market fair and competitive or get the @@#% out of it


 
If your charging 45 a can you ARE THE LOWBALLER


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## Jcode

75 can trim and bulb by us. Not including labor to install. Can't remember what 4"ers are, been awhile since we put any up.

We did a custom home for a rich guy from California. Said and done, 196 cans. 45 installed just int he soffit, our standard non ict halos. The rest were cans he specified. Don't remember brand but the cheapest was $250 said and done, the most expensive was $650. He had more money than he knew what to do with.

The only thing about the cans were they were big sob's and were designed to have difference (expenisve) reflectors in them. Said and done though, they looked like we put 4" cans up with reflectors....

*edit*
Actually we just did the rough on this guys basement. He's finishing it for his kids. Add 30 halo ICT's to that count. These are the 7". 9 in just the bedroom which the cielign was 7' tall and bout a 10x15 room. The rest out in the living space area. About a 35x30 space.


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## rnr electric

that is 45 per can/trim, lamp. that is after sq ft price. let me explain
standard track home,1650 sq ft. no frills at all,single story 8 foot walls. 1.5 day rough in and same on trimout,2 men.200 amp svc and say 20 6" cans, lowest grade house available:
1650 at$3.75 sq ft= 6185.50
20 6" cans @ 45= 900.00
total bid 7087.50
custom not cut up home, not including led lights,pain in the ass fixtures etc. (all extra),but custom home same size but 50 cans, 2.5 to 3 day rough andprobably 2 day trim.
1650x5.25= 8662.25
50 cans @45=2250.00
total bid= 10,912.25
the same applies to a very custom home that has 190 cans,and is 6000 sq ft. but your number jumps to 6.00 or 7.00 a sq ft
now all that being said, at the beginning of this thread i never asked whether this was right or wrong,only insight


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## rnr electric

thos cans were probably OMEGA type.. very expensive and crap as far as im concerned


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## Jcode

Found them

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160423447263#vi-content



> Prescolite:
> Prescolite Firetight 4" Low Voltage Fire-Resistant Downlight. Uses one 50W MR-16 Lamp (not included). Designed for new construction, but may also be used in a remodel where the ceiling is sufficiently open to allow for installation. Features (from Prescolite's webpage)
> * Non-IC rated, new construction
> * Fits into 2” x 10” construction
> * UL Classified to maintain fire ratings of one hour or less for all UL P200 and P500 series fire-rated ceiling/floor assemblies
> * UL Classified to maintain fire ratings of two hours or less in all UL L500, D500, G500, D200, G200, and L200 series fire-rated ceiling/floor assemblies.
> * Integral 12V electronic transformer (FT4LV)
> * Trim outside diameter is 5”
> Certifications
> * UL
> * CSA
> * Non-IC (not intended to be covered directly with insulation).
> * Fire rated
> * Damp Listed
> * NYC


On top of these cans, he had a scaled print of how he wanted them laid out. Did them to print and he came up from Cali, moved 80% of them. He didn't like how the hallway was in a straight so he had me zig zag them. Moved kids room out a foot. Moved the ones in the kitchen out more (14 cans just in that). Just had me move nearly all of them no more than 18", most a foot. Ugh. Good thing we leave loops in the wire just for this instance...


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## rnr electric

jcode, you probably also make better wages than around here. When i lived in Maine i made much better money than i did when i moved here. i think i made like 15 an hour there and i went to work for 8 when i got here, a res leadman tops out at about 22.
thats not just me thats most companys around here


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## Jcode

Ouch! 8-12 is apprenticing around here. 15-18 is jm. 25 on up is Masters. I believe lineman are around 45 on up.

Not postive but I believe thats the general scale. But up here, standard of living is cheap cheap cheap. You can easily own a house, a car, and live off 20k a year. Some even less (no mortage, wood heat, old cheap to insure car, etc) 50k a year up here and you set. The custom log homes and places like I just described are usually imports from places they were very very high up. We get a lot of retiree's up here, and ppl looking to get away.

*Edit*
Including lay off, I skated by on 10k last year in a rental and a large loan payment from my supider (and engaged at the time) younger days. This isn't normal, just horrible few years as im sure most have felt. Was at 18k and 22k first couple years. Not bad at 21/22yrs old or somewhere in there.


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## rnr electric

i think that may be the differnce. believe it or not florida is cheap to live too and thats probably why such low wage scale,and immigrant workers. the property is expensive but overall living is pretty cheap. how many houses do yall do a year roughly


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## Jcode

When times were better ohhhhh probably 18-22 houses. So really not THAT many. Additions/remodels mixed in here and there Use to work saturdays for about a month or two straight during the height of the season. This was just me, step dad, and his nephew at the time. Not all that much new construction up here. No population boom. It's the additions and remodels you have to dig for, more so now than ever.

But for just a couple guys and 1 truck. It was fair amount of work to keep up with. Houses over lapped but we never held one up from being finished.


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## rnr electric

yes, going through the same thing, dont want more manpower but still gotta get jobs done. we do about 7 or 8 houses a month(rough in) then couple months later trim out. right now i have roughly 16 houses goin, couple small comm. buildouts and a few remodels, just bid a 18000 sq ft med ctr. (that would be freakin awesome). i am actually very busy but have been around a while and have good reputation, that makes all the difference. tried some very basic marketing techniques last year and it has paid off well. have yall ever done govt. work at all?


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## rnr electric

BTW 22 houses considering where your at and the economy is a respectable amount for 2 guys.


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## Jcode

When it was good thats what we did. Now its maybe 10.


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## humpty34

rnr electric said:


> i am looking for opinions on bidding residential homes. for 15 years i have bid all my res. work on a sq. ft. basis. My older brother also owns an E/C business and he swears by doing a take off (per drop).We both work in the same area and our numbers are consistently very very close to the others. he says that the numbers wont lie,but i maintain that some houses are far more "cut-up" and more custom and therefore warrant a higher price per sq.ft.. Also keep in mind that he does a lower quality of homes than i do,so maybe his is the way to go for him,but not for me. I am just putting this out there for fresh insight from others.Thanks


I am pretty much retired, but the last contractor that I worked for specialized in Custom homes and small to very large apartment complexes.
He used a unit price for each outlet but measured all the home runs plus of course sub feeders, range runs, A/C runs and so on. He of course did the service calcs. Since he was non union he figured the labor separately.
His workers were paid for rough in and finish (Trim) by the square foot plus extra for sub feeders, range runs, service etc. Of course a union shop would not be allowed to do this. This contractor did very well with his business until he became very sick. I noticed that on the web site Electrician's Toolbox there is a link somewhere that might help you. I believe that it may be in the Rolodex that you get to from Directory. If you are unable to find your answer on this site, try Mike Holts Forum or I have seen many other forums on the internet. Hope this helps


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## NacBooster29

Why do you keep responding to old threads?


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## HARRY304E

NacBooster29 said:


> Why do you keep responding to old threads?


Bump!..:laughing:


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