# Self Contained Hot Tub grounding & bonding



## Kaffeene (Feb 11, 2014)

Let me also add this TIA for the 2011 code regarding bonding for self-contained hot tubs.



> 1. Revise 680.42(B) to read as follows:
> 680.42(B) Bonding. Bonding by metal-to-metal mounting on a common frame or base shall be permitted.
> Exception No. 1: The metal bands or hoops used to secure wooden staves shall not be required to be bonded as required in 680.26.
> Exception No. 2: A listed self-contained spa or hot tub that meets all of the following conditions shall not be required to have
> ...


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

I don't know NJ amendments but if the 2011 was accepted before the Tia came out and NJ did not accept the Tia then you would have to install it. 

Some Spa manufacturers require a full size ground but IMO that would need to go back to the panel where the feeder originates and not just to the disconnect


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

I looked also and do not see any requirements for a full size equipment grounding conductor

http://www.allseasonspools-spas.com/downloads/SouthSeas_OwnersManual.pdf


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## Kaffeene (Feb 11, 2014)

NJ adopted 2011 in May 2012. It looks like they included this amendment. 
NJ adopted 2014 code in Sept. 2015 w/ a 6 mo. grace period.


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## Kaffeene (Feb 11, 2014)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I looked also and do not see any requirements for a full size equipment grounding conductor
> 
> http://www.allseasonspools-spas.com/downloads/SouthSeas_OwnersManual.pdf


The manufacture just says the installation shall be in accordance with the NEC. 

It's going to be fun calling the inspector tomorrow.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Kaffeene said:


> NJ adopted 2011 in May 2012. It looks like they included this amendment.
> NJ adopted 2014 code in Sept. 2015 w/ a 6 mo. grace period.


Sounds like the inspector is off on this one. Just be polite and show him the article numbers


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## Kaffeene (Feb 11, 2014)

I left two messages for the inspector this week and never heard from him. 
Guess we'll see how next week goes. 

It's so nice that the Inspector gets the authority to fail me for two things that are not code.
Then he gets to hold up the job and irritate the homeowner and other contractors waiting to finish. And of course I'm the one who looks unreliable and incompetent because all the homeowner and other contractor see is a failed sticker with nothing being done about it. 

Another ridiculous part of this job is that it took this town 33 days to issue an electrical permit for the hot tub and that was with myself and the homeowner contacting the town multiple times.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Our state or towns have a rule about how long one has to wait. At one time if it was more than 2 days then you could just proceed but I doubt that is the case now.

33 days for a permit is absolutely crazy. It's no wonder people avoid getting permits


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## Kaffeene (Feb 11, 2014)

I just found out on Friday that the inspector also wrote up a second Failed sticker with my permit number on it that included some code violations for a service upgrade that completed by someone else sometime in 2015. 

Also, I still haven't heard from the inspector.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Kaffeene said:


> I just found out on Friday that the inspector also wrote up a second Failed sticker with my permit number on it that included some code violations for a service upgrade that completed by someone else sometime in 2015.
> 
> Also, I still haven't heard from the inspector.


I would be at their office waiting for him to come in and I would let the higher ups know that he is not returning your call.


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## Kaffeene (Feb 11, 2014)

Well I heard from the inspector last week. 
I had the assistant print out a copy of a few emails I had back and forth with her and put it on his desk with my contact number. 

After he told me the things he wanted corrected I asked him for a code reference. 
I also gave him the code references that confirmed I did not need an equipotential perimeter bond and a full size #6 ground. 
We went over the wording of the code and it looks like he may have needed a refresher, or was making reference to some 2008 code, but he was quite nice about it and so was I.


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

The best advice I could give you is, just do what the inspector wants, don't argue, be happy. You can argue code all day with these guys, but in the end, they win. Especially the "old' ones.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

joebanana said:


> The best advice I could give you is, just do what the inspector wants, don't argue, be happy. You can argue code all day with these guys, but in the end, they win. Especially the "old' ones.


No way!

Not anyone is 100% right all the time and everyone can make a in wrong interpretation or assumption. They are there to make sure we are compliant, that is it.

I used to think the same thing, but after having to deal with the same inspector always calling the same stuff incorrectly I had to say something. His response "Why didn't you show this to me before".


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

Switched said:


> No way!
> 
> Not anyone is 100% right all the time and everyone can make a in wrong interpretation or assumption. They are there to make sure we are compliant, that is it.
> 
> I used to think the same thing, but after having to deal with the same inspector always calling the same stuff incorrectly I had to say something. His response "Why didn't you show this to me before".


My point being.....they sign your ticket, or not. Having other trades glaring, and then their watches, then at you again, while you argue, makes for a hostile work place. It's like arguing with a cop over what your BAL is. (and, no I don't have any experience in that matter, but, I've heard stories, and they all end basically the same.)


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Joe, I think that is bad advice... A good inspector is willing to learn and admit he/she is wrong. Without being terribly confrontational one can make a point that the code says what it says. If an inspector cannot give a reference then he should not be able to turn it down.

By not saying anything it ends up costing everyone extra trips to a job that should not be.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

joebanana said:


> The best advice I could give you is, just do what the inspector wants, don't argue, be happy. You can argue code all day with these guys, but in the end, they win. Especially the "old' ones.


Wow!!! now we need a dislike button.


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## Kaffeene (Feb 11, 2014)

Yeah and my last post said that I informed the inspector of some code that he had wrong and he basically agreed with me. We were both polite and patient and I think (so far) it ended well. 

I wasn't about to have someone tell me that I need to drive back to the job and spend a few more hours and money to rectify something that was not wrong or dangerous. 

Then I either have to tell the customer, " Sorry, but I have to charge you another $450 because the inspector said I have to do this even thought it's not required by the code." 

Or I have to eat it because the customer refuses to pay extra and says, "You gave me a total price for this installation and that does not include charging me more because you don't know how to install electrical work that is up to code." (even though my work is to code)

Then in either of the above two circumstances I lose that customer and any referrals they would have made to others. 

Since I presented my case to the inspector in a polite, patient and knowledgeable way, we came to an agreement and now I have also made a better impression to the customer that may have me back for future work or recommend me to a friend. 

Now I understand this does not always work and sometimes an agreement between the inspector and contractor is never reached.


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

They're called the AHJ for a reason, local, regional, state codes aren't covered in the NEC. The NEC is the minimum required, local codes often exceed the NEC, and I've been bitten by them. An example would be, an open trench that someone threw trash in, and the AHJ wanted it taken out before backfilling. I could have argued "code section" all day, but until the trash was removed he wouldn't sign off on it. Now if he said I can't land two conductors on a listed and labeled lug for two conductors, I'd argue that point. If he said I can't use set screw connectors in a school, I wouldn't, because I don't know of the code section covering that issue. I won't even go into spec work. Anybody here ever done a "clean room"?


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

joebanana said:


> They're called the AHJ for a reason, local, regional, state codes aren't covered in the NEC. The NEC is the minimum required, local codes often exceed the NEC, and I've been bitten by them. An example would be, an open trench that someone threw trash in, and the AHJ wanted it taken out before backfilling. I could have argued "code section" all day, but until the trash was removed he wouldn't sign off on it. Now if he said I can't land two conductors on a listed and labeled lug for two conductors, I'd argue that point. If he said I can't use set screw connectors in a school, I wouldn't, because I don't know of the code section covering that issue. I won't even go into spec work. Anybody here ever done a "clean room"?


Doesn't matter if it's NEC or not. If there is a local amendment they still have to show you in writing what the amendment is.
Not just the " that's what I like to see, or that's the way we do it here" stuff that some come off with.


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

A Little Short said:


> Doesn't matter if it's NEC or not. If there is a local amendment they still have to show you in writing what the amendment is.
> Not just the " that's what I like to see, or that's the way we do it here" stuff that some come off with.


"They" don't have to show you squat, it's not their job to teach code, just enforce it, it's your job to know it.


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## Kaffeene (Feb 11, 2014)

joebanana said:


> "They" don't have to show you squat, it's not their job to teach code, just enforce it, it's your job to know it.


An inspector wouldn't necessarily be teaching the code to someone because they asked about an amendment or local code that is enforced. 

In fact the first thing I said to the inspector when I talked to him, after he told me what he wanted, was asking him for the code section that he was referring to that required me to change my installation. 

He was referring to a code that no longer applied because it was applicable with the 2008 code, which was no longer being enforced in that location. He made a mistake, like we all do. The electrical industry is continually a learning process and no one (including inspectors) know it all. 

You made a reference to law enforcement being similar to the AHJ before. 
What if a cop tries to give me a speeding ticket for going 48 MPH on a 40MPH roadway. That roadway is really a 50MPH because they changed the speed limit from 40 to 50 six months ago, but he forgot about the change and didn't notice the signs because he hardly ever travels that road.


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

Kaffeene said:


> An inspector wouldn't necessarily be teaching the code to someone because they asked about an amendment or local code that is enforced.
> 
> In fact the first thing I said to the inspector when I talked to him, after he told me what he wanted, was asking him for the code section that he was referring to that required me to change my installation.
> 
> ...


Apparently inspectors on the East coast aren't anything like "Gods of all things living and electrical" as are West coast inspectors. Granted most don't "specialize" in electrical inspections, they're called "building inspectors" here, and most are hard nosed old farts, who know all, see all, but can't even tie their own shoes, that's why they become inspectors. "Those who can't DO , teach...those who can't teach, supervise". I don't have any idea where I'm going with this, but, "if you don't know where your going, any road will take you there". I haven't had to deal with inspectors since the 80's,(thank God) so I'll gracefully(or not)back out of this opinionated thread. 
But, funny you mentioned the cop thing, I was pulled over some time ago, because a cop passed me, then pulled me over for "slowing down" (thought it was suspicious) He asked me why I slowed down, and I had to point out to him the speed limit changed under the bridge, from 50, to 40. He had no clue.


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## degupita (Jun 5, 2015)

joebanana said:


> Apparently inspectors on the East coast aren't anything like "Gods of all things living and electrical" as are West coast inspectors. Granted most don't "specialize" in electrical inspections, they're called "building inspectors" here, and most are hard nosed old farts, who know all, see all, but can't even tie their own shoes, that's why they become inspectors. "Those who can't DO , teach...those who can't teach, supervise". I don't have any idea where I'm going with this, but, "if you don't know where your going, any road will take you there". I haven't had to deal with inspectors since the 80's,(thank God) so I'll gracefully(or not)back out of this opinionated thread.
> But, funny you mentioned the cop thing, I was pulled over some time ago, because a cop passed me, then pulled me over for "slowing down" (thought it was suspicious) He asked me why I slowed down, and I had to point out to him the speed limit changed under the bridge, from 50, to 40. He had no clue.


You remind me of a landlord I used to work for. He had a real hostile outlook toward the building inspectors that he had to deal with on his properties. 

They would pick up on it, so it would rarely go easy.

When I would do code upgrades for his places. I would be the one to do the walk through with the inspector, and never had a problem.

Because I didn't have all these prejudices about them.

There are times when it matters to speak up, and other times it doesn't.
This time it worked out well.

As for this one, I probably would have missed the fun, because I would have made the equipment ground the same size as the conductors, unless it was a matter of fitting them into a conduit.


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

joebanana said:


> "They" don't have to show you squat, it's not their job to teach code, just enforce it, it's your job to know it.


I didn't say it was their job to teach code. What I said (meant) was that if they fail/cite you on something they have to show you the code or amendment that covers what they cited you on.


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## pete87 (Oct 22, 2012)

I thought Inspectors Liked Christmas Gifts ... To be Recognized for Community 

Service well done . I believe in this system ... and can call them for Help when 

need be .


Always good to have a working relationship ...



Pete


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## Inspector Grump (Jun 4, 2008)

I have retired from working NJ, if an inspector wants to make up their own codes, a call to the DCA codes and standers will solve the problem quickly. They are required to supply the code number and explain to you way.


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## Tigerloose (Dec 5, 2010)

Just curious, but is all THHN also THWN?


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Tigerloose said:


> Just curious, but is all THHN also THWN?


I have not seen any THHN that was not dual rated in some time. Is it out there- maybe but I doubt it.


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## Kaffeene (Feb 11, 2014)

Tigerloose said:


> Just curious, but is all THHN also THWN?


Rated 75C if used in wet locations, unless it is labeled THWN-2


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## pete87 (Oct 22, 2012)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I have not seen any THHN that was not dual rated in some time. Is it out there- maybe but I doubt it.





Rolls of wire in Garages and Closets .... Where people had stores of the old stuff .

People will use this wire up , when found ..


Pete


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