# Union Membership



## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

They say it's down to 11.5% in the national workforce.


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## electricalwiz (Mar 12, 2011)

I didnt think it was that high.
What is the source that you got that from


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

The article did say that it was mostly caused by a reduction in government workers.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)




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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

chicken steve said:


>


Well then it's time to take back the unions, _and _the middle class.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

chicken steve said:


>


And were looked at as the bad guy. Especially when it comes to bennies. I was just telling someone the other day that when we get say a $2 raise we allocate money to our pension fund, then our health and welfare fund and lastly our pocket. Sure we could opt to put the whole $2 in our pocket, but for looking ahead it seems we are frowned upon.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Loose Neutral said:


> And were looked at as the bad guy.


Using the chart i posted as an overall thumbnail view of the union situation, i'd say it's time you lot thought about dealing with that particular view LN

~CS~


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

CS I try to dispel the myth and tell the good side, but it's hard to get the message out.


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

With obammy healthcare,a lot of companys are going to 25 hrs. to get out of the the burden.


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## union347sparky (Feb 29, 2012)

bobelectric said:


> With obammy healthcare,a lot of companys are going to 25 hrs. to get out of the the burden.


What does that have to do with this conversation? I think you just like to say obammy.


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

bobelectric said:


> With obammy healthcare,a lot of companys are going to 25 hrs. to get out of the the burden.


I don't think our problem is too much government, I think it's cultural narcissism.

I don't think unions have outlived their purpose, I think extreme political dissent has.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Loose Neutral said:


> CS I try to dispel the myth and tell the good side, but it's hard to get the message out.


Much more a chore i would think .....since labor busting has become a national pass time

~CS~


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

chicken steve said:


> Much more a chore i would think .....since labor busting has become a national pass time
> 
> ~CS~


Yeah I don't know what breeds it. I think a lot of it is either ignorance or jealousy. Anymore i just go to work and ply my trade and try to give them a good product. One day I will get a check monthly for my past efforts. It's funny how last weeks flu epedemic they were asking people to stay home, yet no one can, cause they have no sick leave. Something like only 1 in 3 have it.


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

CS.....there are some of us out there who are trying our best to dispel the myth that we are the bad guys but it is hard. We fight agains the union busters who are no different than the hired thugs from the 20's and 30's, we fight against the anti-union, pro-big business gov't and even worse we fight against ourselves.

I've read on this forum....people who have told stories about joining the union only to be treated like they were an outcast or never have their work or experience taken seriously regardless of wether they were good electricans or not.....guys who have been harrassed and been called "rat" ,scumbag and worse because they choose to work non-union......I could go on and on but now isn't the time.
I'll simply ask you.....does any of the above treatment even come close to the invitation put forth in this statement?
*"We earnestly invite all members of our trade to come forward and join our ranks and help increase our numbers, so that there shall be no one working at our trade outside of our Brotherhood. "*

I agree with the use of the picket line for certain situations, I agree that there has been times where the union needed the strongarm tactics and the radicals but ubtil we become a " Brotherhood " again and learn to live by the above statement we can never hope to fully achieve our goals.:no:

The unions have fought for and won all the things which have been legislated into the labor laws we all enjoy today...the union has achieved its goal of a better standard of living....it continues to ensure the upward movement of that standard and the position of the middle class working family. 
The chart you have posted only helps to PROVE this. 
If anybody thinks for one minute that unions have outlived their purpose and that they are only a symbol for the lazy to hide behind or they are just another big business who want nothing more than to collect your dues money........you couldn't be MORE wrong. Middle class incomes declining with a declining membership is only the begining. Do you think that with the demise of the unions.....big business would honor all the things that have been legislated into law or would they start lobbying politicians to get away with just a little more all the time? 
First the wages slip....then the safety slides a bit.....then the work weeks get longer and longer.....what's next and where would it end????:001_huh:


OK....RANT over:laughing:


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

Loose Neutral said:


> Yeah I don't know what breeds it. I think a lot of it is either ignorance or jealousy. Anymore i just go to work and ply my trade and try to give them a good product. One day I will get a check monthly for my past efforts. It's funny how last weeks flu epedemic they were asking people to stay home, yet no one can, cause they have no sick leave. Something like only 1 in 3 have it.


Why should a company carry the burden of offering sick leave just prevent an epidemic? I'm sick of this entitled attitude. 

If someone becomes too ill, or dies, there's a long line of unemployed waiting to take that job for even less than the employee before them. That's what our forefathers fought for.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

TGGT said:


> Why should a company carry the burden of offering sick leave just prevent an epidemic? I'm sick of this entitled attitude.
> 
> If someone becomes too ill, or dies, there's a long line of unemployed waiting to take that job for even less than the employee before them. That's what our forefathers fought for.


"If they would rather die,'' said Scrooge, "they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population."


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

TGGT said:


> If someone becomes too ill, or dies, there's a long line of unemployed waiting to take that job for _*even less*_ than the employee before them.


Exactly the attitude I'm talking about.......concerned about how much _LESS_ I can get it done for. 

" Wow....the guy just died......screw him and his family.....this is the perfect opportunity to lower my costs."


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## 347sparky (May 14, 2012)

TGGT said:


> Why should a company carry the burden of offering sick leave just prevent an epidemic? I'm sick of this entitled attitude.
> 
> If someone becomes too ill, or dies, there's a long line of unemployed waiting to take that job for even less than the employee before them. That's what our forefathers fought for.


Just like the slaves our forefathers had, ill or dead just get another one out of the barn.


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

347sparky said:


> Just like the slaves our forefathers had, ill or dead just get another one out of the barn.


 Yeah.....I'm sure thats exactly what your forefathers fought for The right to kick a dead slave to the curb like a piece of trash and just make somebody else do the job for a smaller piece of the pie. :no:


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## union347sparky (Feb 29, 2012)

After news of the sinking of the HMS Titanic reached land the White Star Line released all employees on the boat. They fired them with the date and time before they believe it actually sunk. That way they were not liable for bereavement pay or funeral costs since they weren't employees of WSL.

Don't worry though you anti union guys the company has your best interest at heart.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

TGGT said:


> Why should a company carry the burden of offering sick leave just prevent an epidemic? I'm sick of this entitled attitude.
> 
> If someone becomes too ill, or dies, there's a long line of unemployed waiting to take that job for even less than the employee before them. That's what our forefathers fought for.


Entitled attitude? It's a benefit that you work for and it makes us a better society. I don't know about you, but i work for everything i have.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

union347sparky said:


> After news of the sinking of the HMS Titanic reached land the White Star Line released all employees on the boat. They fired them with the date and time before they believe it actually sunk. That way they were not liable for bereavement pay or funeral costs since they weren't employees of WSL.
> 
> Don't worry though you anti union guys the company has your best interest at heart.


Union or not, 99% of owners either do not care about their guys, or financially can not care for them. Here is the problem with both sides of the equation. Assumption. And all that does is make an ass out of both you and me.

As a small business owner, I care deeply about those who work for me. I try to give them all that I can afford to give them, even at the cost of my own so called paycheck. So yes, non union guys do have the backs of some of the companies they work for. Has your employer ever paid for a vacation for you? Paid for a night out with your wife? Bought you a new fridge when your old one broke?

I might easily assume that you do not really have an employer in the same sense. You work for the union, the brotherhood. Therefore, you are by contract, not truly an employee for a business owner, but just a tool that they use, and then put back on the shelf till they need it again. And because of the collective bargaining that takes place, we are at war with each other in a sense. But I would be wrong. I know to many union guys, and to many union shops to be so ignorant.....But that is what an assumption breeds, ignorance and hatred.

This is construction. I have worked both union and non union. I have been laid off plenty of times. I can honestly say only one employer had any real true care as to what would happen to his guys.


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## uconduit (Jun 6, 2012)

There is no agreed-upon definition of what an "economic depression" is, but the 2008 recession is probably going to be called a depression after the economy recovers. So the economic squeeze hits construction the hardest, stresses the workers. It's a difficult time with lots of unemployment.


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

Loose Neutral said:


> Entitled attitude? It's a benefit that you work for and it makes us a better society. I don't know about you, but i work for everything i have.


It was sarcasm.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

TGGT said:


> It was sarcasm.


Sarcasm requires an emoticon:thumbsup:


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Rollie73 said:


> CS.....there are some of us out there who are trying our best to dispel the myth that we are the bad guys but it is hard. We fight agains the union busters who are no different than the hired thugs from the 20's and 30's, we fight against the anti-union, pro-big business gov't and even worse we fight against ourselves.
> 
> I've read on this forum....people who have told stories about joining the union only to be treated like they were an outcast or never have their work or experience taken seriously regardless of wether they were good electricans or not.....guys who have been harrassed and been called "rat" ,scumbag and worse because they choose to work non-union......I could go on and on but now isn't the time.
> I'll simply ask you.....does any of the above treatment even come close to the invitation put forth in this statement?
> ...


My grandparents were dirt poor immigrants, some sent as kids _alone_ across the pond to the_ 'streets of gold'_ during the industrial revolution Rollie

They held secret meetings to form unions in the late 20's, early 30's, at the risk of being fired , having the pikerton's at their door.....or_ worse_

They embodied the ideal iof collectivism, lived it daily....

and that chart i posted could easily be turned around , for an uphill ride from thier time to say, early 70's

which was about when i entered the workforce btw.....

Since then, it's been a downhill ride, you lot are dying quicker sh*t through a goose, and you're taking the rest of the working class _(who you supposedly represent)_ down the sh*tter with you

Personally i'm tired of arguing with U-guys about it all, im (not so)ho, you've had a generation to get it in one sock, but your leaders are about as smooth as a bull in a china shop , and could F up a blow job quicker than Clinton publicly

The powers that be play you, and you trot right along behind any carrot they wave 

I can hear my G-parents spinning in their graves , and they're doing so because you've thrown the altruism of _'union' _under the bus 

At this point my frustration with the lot of you is to the point where you're all simply an albatross around the necks of _surviving _labor in America

You're victims of your own volition, beyond salvage, rating about as much sympathy as i would have for drug addicts on deaths door

~CS~


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## union347sparky (Feb 29, 2012)

chicken steve said:


> My grandparents were dirt poor immigrants, some sent as kids alone across the pond to the 'streets of gold' during the industrial revolution Rollie
> 
> They held secret meetings to form unions in the late 20's, early 30's, at the risk of being fired , having the pikerton's at their door.....or worse
> 
> ...


The powers that be we follow like a carrot? Some nerve preaching regurgitated Fox News. 

If unions die enjoy 60 hr work weeks with no bennies or breaks. Look at china. 

How do you figure were taking the middle class down? I see non union shops paying guys 1/2 of what I make then working them twice as much. But I'm the one bringing down the standard of living. I see non union shops hiring illegals and one American Forman. Yet I'm bringing down the middle class. Maybe you non union turds shouldn't throw stones in glass houses. 

You can stay on your high horse because somewhere in your life you think you we're wronged by the union. You think you we're called names or laughed at. Or you were laid off once where some lazy dumbass kept his job. I'm sure in the NU shops that never happens. Lol. You can go to sleep at night knowing you won by fighting against the union. While me and your g-parents are laughing at you because you gave yourself just enough rope to hang yourself when corporations finally get their way. 

~LG~


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

> How do you figure were taking the middle class down?


by not giving a sweet sh*t about them for 40 years

~CS~


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## union347sparky (Feb 29, 2012)

chicken steve said:


> by not giving a sweet sh*t about them for 40 years
> 
> ~CS~


How? Just by saying it doesn't make it true. Because you couldn't get along in the local you joined doesn't mean the union is all bad. You sure spout off at the mouth but have no real facts to back it up. I don't see how fighting for better working conditions and pay is turning our backs on the middle class. 

The union has its problems and needs an overhaul. However the good out ways the bad and its better than the alternative. Every group suffers an identity crisis time to time. Your life without unions (member or not) would be a whole lot worse. To show no gratitude for that is a slap in the face to those who fought for workers rights including your g-parents.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

chicken steve said:


> by not giving a sweet sh*t about them for 40 years
> 
> ~CS~


I know you don't believe that. Unions want everybody to join the middle class.


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

Loose Neutral said:


> I know you don't believe that. Unions want everybody to join the middle class.


So what are the unions doing to create a path to the middle class for all?


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

TGGT said:


> So what are the unions doing to create a path to the middle class for all?


Fighting everyday for better wages, benefits and education.


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## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

union347sparky said:


> If unions die enjoy 60 hr work weeks with no bennies or breaks. Look at china.




Yep, as soon as unions are gone all of our labor laws will cease to exist.

Contractors have work that needs to be done, they need qualified guys to do it. They have to compete for good guys with the other contractors that also have work to do and need good guys. This is why they offer competitive wages and benefits.

Are the wages a little bit higher because unions exist? Maybe, but that is not the whole reason. If (when) the unions die we will not all be working for minimum wage with no benefits, 60 hour weeks for no overtime. 

If you actually believe half the bullsh!t you spew then you are dumber than I thought, which I didn't think possible.


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## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

Loose Neutral said:


> Fighting everyday for better wages, benefits and education.



For their members, they could care less about me.

The feeling is mutual.

The union can't die fast enough.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

bobelectric said:


> With obammy healthcare,a lot of companys are going to 25 hrs. to get out of the the burden.


So you haven't a clue of how it works then do you?

This is someone that regurgitates what he is told and is not interested in the facts.
Get an education before you publicly embarrass yourself again. :thumbsup:


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

No End to ways Unions hurt the Economy



> Let's all agree that there was a time when unions helped us get to justice in this land. But let's understand, too, that that the opposite can be more nearly true today. It's not an accident that union membership has dropped to little more than 7 percent in the private sector. Federal and state laws prohibit the kinds of worker abuses that sometimes obtained in the past. Corporations are far more enlightened than some once were. And, on top of still other reasons, unionized companies are said in one think tank analysis to be in particular danger of going out of business because of the non-competitive inefficiencies unions are often able to impose.
> 
> The real strength of labor is now in the public sector where, in some states and cities, it has taken advantage of weak-kneed politicians to gain pension pledges that could lead to bankruptcy. Rather tame attempts to tamp down on these threats have been greeted by angry protests and have been described in endless news stories as incursions on union "rights." But there is no right of collective bargaining with the government. As I am not the first to point out, the issue instead is union power


 
Not Just Public Unions: Private Sector Unions Hurting Business


> It is no wonder why America’s support for unions is dissolving. According to a September 2011 survey by Gallup, 42 percent of Americans – an all-time high – want unions to have less influence. Moreover, most Americans believe union bosses look out for their own, but think labor unions do damage to the U.S. economy and actually hurt other workers who are not union members.


 
Unions Hurt the Economy and Cause Unemployment


> “Another cause of long-term unemployment is unionization. High union wages that exceed the competitive market rate are likely to cause job losses in the unionized sector of the economy. Also, those who lose high wage union jobs are often reluctant to accept alternative low-wage employment


Unions Hurt Democracy, Consumers and Economy


> The Eurozone last week went into another recession, and if the unions have their way, the U.S. will soon follow.
> This comes as several cities, mostly in southern California, have declared bankruptcy when the cities could not afford to pay its creditors due to overwhelming city employee pension plans. Stockton, Mammoth Lakes and San Bernardino have all declared bankruptcy, leaving creditors high and dry.


 
The list is endless here. One of the biggest factors being globalization. From Clinton's nafta on the free traitors have been able to utilize the unions as validation. 

Most of the union oppsition amounted to no more than political posturing

Now you're left with the only card you can play, global solidarity.....










many of us sit the fence, and await the debute of your ilk's Lech Walesa , if it should happen at all in the midst of impossible collusion....

~CS~


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## uconduit (Jun 6, 2012)

It just seems like these articles might be propaganda pieces. Conservatives don't like unions, republicans don't like unions. They don't even like mainstream media.

Propaganda isn't inherently bad. There is pro union and anti union propaganda. Propaganda exists when there is a conflict. We had lots of propaganda worldwide in the 1940s; the US had posters with signs like "loose lips sink ships", and "get the jap and get it over!". Propaganda is basically media trying to make someone believe your point of view, some of it is subtle some isn't. 

In theory, labor unions allow the interests of workers to be considered by business leaders/managers. Workers vote for someone to represent them to management. If a single employee had a disagreement with the boss in a nonunion environment, that employee has no power to compel their employer to do anything. Their only recourse is to quit, be fired and/or sue. A unionized workforce will always have more power than any individual worker. 

Businesses would rather have all the control and power to themselves. An ultimate example might be slavery. But there were schemes where even free-people were tricked into becoming indebted to their employers during the 19th century.


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## union347sparky (Feb 29, 2012)

EBFD6 said:


> Yep, as soon as unions are gone all of our labor laws will cease to exist.
> 
> Contractors have work that needs to be done, they need qualified guys to do it. They have to compete for good guys with the other contractors that also have work to do and need good guys. This is why they offer competitive wages and benefits.
> 
> ...


Wages are good because of the union. Rats haven't done anything to raise wages other than ride the coat tails of the union. You have a sense of entitlement that you think your good enough to keep your wages we got you. The second the union is not setting the way you will be working for less. That's a guarantee. Call me names all you want. I think your worthless rat . .


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Call it what you will UnCon, the fact remains you're dying. 

And you won't find me arguing the theory of collectivism, it's your application of it that's a dismal failure

exhibit A gentlemen>



> Wages are good because of the union. Rats haven't done anything to raise wages other than ride the coat tails of the union. You have a sense of entitlement that you think your good enough to keep your wages we got you. The second the union is not setting the way you will be working for less. That's a guarantee. Call me names all you want. I think your worthless rat . .


~CS~


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

btw 347

i was the union reps choice , via the salts advice, to solicit as a Jman on one of the larger jobs in the area back in the day....

yes, i could have been _you_

but you sir, could never be _me_

_~CS~_


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## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

union347sparky said:


> Wages are good because of the union. Rats haven't done anything to raise wages other than ride the coat tails of the union. You have a sense of entitlement that you think your good enough to keep your wages we got you. The second the union is not setting the way you will be working for less. That's a guarantee. Call me names all you want. I think your worthless rat . .


I'm not going to do the whole back and forth argument with you on this. Let's just say we will always disagree on this topic.



union347sparky said:


> The second the union is not setting the way you will be working for less. That's a guarantee.


Doubtful.

With any luck we will find out soon. Let's just keep our fingers crossed and watch those union membership numbers nosedive. :thumbsup:



union347sparky said:


> I think your worthless rat


Ouch, I hope I can sleep tonight.


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## union347sparky (Feb 29, 2012)

EBFD6 said:


> I'm not going to do the whole back and forth argument with you on this. Let's just say we will always disagree on this topic.
> 
> Doubtful.
> 
> ...


You're an idiot. Sleep tight. .


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## union347sparky (Feb 29, 2012)

chicken steve said:


> btw 347
> 
> i was the union reps choice , via the salts advice, to solicit as a Jman on one of the larger jobs in the area back in the day....
> 
> ...


Hahahaha. You're funny. I couldn't be you, I'm good looking. Lol.


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

chicken steve said:


> *........it's your application of it that's a dismal failure.........*
> ~CS~


Ok, ChickenMan.... I'm not saying I disagree, nor have I ever said such a thing. In fact I tend to agree with you in alot of situations. 

Having said that.......I would love to hear your ideas on _exactly how _you would apply the theory of collectivism. You never hesitate to tell us all how we are going about it all wrong while never offering your opinions on what we, as a group, _should_ be doing to make it right.

Please enlighten us your chickeness:jester:


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Sure .....

first off, _sh*tcan_ the inflatable rat, stop any protests of jobs you lot loose out to open shops....get over it....

next, get your U-leaders to get their heads outta their a*ses, can the political rhetoric , put some real $$$ into keeping American _jobs_ in America

Bottom line, Americans need jobs, _period_......

This means paying for some $$$ lobbyists , btw,_ that's_ what legislating the free traitors out of influence is about, because _that's_ how they got in....

Next you get every ******* tradesman in America along for _that_ ride in your back pocket, by proving beyond a shadow of doubt we _both_ have a dog in that fight of labor subjucation

Collectivism won wars, granted us equality, put a man on the moon & elevated the middle class to a lifestyle unseen prior on this rock Rollie

Your ilk drew it's power directly from this concept, but you've lost your touch imho

~CS~


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

union347sparky said:


> Wages are good because of the union. Rats haven't done anything to raise wages other than ride the coat tails of the union. You have a sense of entitlement that you think your good enough to keep your wages we got you. The second the union is not setting the way you will be working for less. That's a guarantee. Call me names all you want. I think your worthless rat . .


Seeing a union guy say a non-union guy has a "sense of entitlement" in this debate is just about the funniest thing I have ever read on this forum. Unions invented entitlement and preach that everyday.


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

chicken steve said:


> Sure .....
> 
> first off, _sh*tcan_ the inflatable rat, stop any protests of jobs you lot loose out to open shops....get over it....
> 
> ...


Once again......we couldn't agree more..... and yes....many of higher leaders have made the union idealism all about the singular not the collective. It's all about how good they can look and how much money they can make. We need changes.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

well Rollie....perhaps i should leave it that i'm not so much b*tching _at _you, as b*tching _with_ you....~CS~


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

Nice to see the tards out in force in this thread.


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

chicken steve said:


> well Rollie....perhaps i should leave it that i'm not so much b*tching _at _you, as b*tching _with_ you....~CS~


:laughing: Meh........b*tch AT me if you want......I'm used to it.:laughing:


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