# Whole house Arc faults coming???



## FES (Dec 10, 2009)

I talked with the "electrical guru" in the codes office yesterday about new codes for 2010....He mentioned that by 2011 that arc fault & gfci breakers for all circuits (excluding 240V's) will probably be required in residential dwellings. He says it will be in the IRBC. Anyone heard of this. If so, I guess the manufactures will have to get on the ball to get us panels.....


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

I haven't heard that yet. Whats wrong with the panels that we already have?


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

FES said:


> I talked with the "electrical guru" in the codes office yesterday about new codes for 2010....He mentioned that by 2011 that arc fault & gfci breakers for all circuits (excluding 240V's) will probably be required in residential dwellings. He says it will be in the IRBC. Anyone heard of this. If so, I guess the manufactures will have to get on the ball to get us panels.....


I Just checked the ROPs for the '11 NEC. The only proposals that were accepted only moved the definition of an AFCI to Article 100. No real significant changes to 210.12.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Jeez.... give me a heart attack!

I thought you were going to say the main breaker must be AFCI protected!


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Jeez.... give me a heart attack!
> 
> I thought you were going to say the main breaker must be AFCI protected!



That was what I thought this was about too.


FES As John pointed out, few AFCI changes in store, look at page 40 of this link 2011 NEC Draft Copy it could still change but not likely.


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

An arc fault main circuit breaker would not work in current design with 240v loads in a home, correct?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

nolabama said:


> An arc fault main circuit breaker would not work in current design with 240v loads in a home, correct?


 
If it's a 2-pole AFCI, it would.


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

480sparky said:


> If it's a 2-pole AFCI, it would.


How is that with unbalanced loads due to 240v devices that don't use a neutral, such as a hot water heater.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

nolabama said:


> How is that with unbalanced loads due to 240v devices that don't use a neutral, such as a hot water heater.


 
I would still operate, fine. Load balance has nothing to do with AFCI's working.


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

I thought the comparative sine waveforms between the hot and the neutral relied on a balanced load. Hence the sharing of a neutral being the main culprit of why they trip.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

nolabama said:


> I thought the comparative sine waveforms between the hot and the neutral relied on a balanced load. Hence the sharing of a neutral being the main culprit of why they trip.


Why would a main AFCI breaker trip as opposed to a brance circuit 2-pole AFCI not trip?


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## BCSparkyGirl (Aug 20, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Jeez.... give me a heart attack!
> 
> I thought you were going to say the main breaker must be AFCI protected!


SHHHHHHHH, don't give them ideas!!!


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

BCSparkyGirl said:


> SHHHHHHHH, don't give them ideas!!!


 
But, I _want_ to give 'them' ideas.

Idea like, "Give every regular member of ET a $10,000 credit at the supply house!"


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

480sparky said:


> Why would a main AFCI breaker trip as opposed to a brance circuit 2-pole AFCI not trip?


Because the two pole AFCI is reading a combined current of two hots and the balanced return from them. The lack of a Neutral, such as a water heater, would in my opinion give it fits. I cannot find the technical data I need to back this up as of yet. But give me a little credit I did not know they were even making two pole afci's till you put a pic up.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

nolabama said:


> Because the two pole AFCI is reading a combined current of two hots and the balanced return from them. The lack of a Neutral, such as a water heater, would in my opinion give it fits. I cannot find the technical data I need to back this up as of yet. But give me a little credit I did not know they were even making two pole afci's till you put a pic up.


Ken is right here, as long as the breaker was monitoring both hots and the neutral the total imbalance would always be zero unless there was a ground fault.


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

Good to know. I have not read anything on two pole afci's whatsoever. They must be making them a little smarter. :thumbsup:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

nolabama said:


> Because the two pole AFCI is reading a combined current of two hots and the balanced return from them. The lack of a Neutral, such as a water heater, would in my opinion give it fits. I cannot find the technical data I need to back this up as of yet. But give me a little credit I did not know they were even making two pole afci's till you put a pic up.


I guess I don't understand what current imbalance has to do with AFCIs anyway. AFCIs are not designed to monitor current flow. They are designed to detect the signature of arcing in a circuit.


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

480sparky said:


> I guess I don't understand what current imbalance has to do with AFCIs anyway. AFCIs are not designed to monitor current flow. They are designed to detect the signature of arcing in a circuit.


It was my understanding that the imbalanced current that sharing a neutral creates is misunderstood by the microprocessor in the AFCI and read as the signature of an arc. Its the basis for why I thought that a lack of a neutral would create the same problem. I can sorta see how the main would be an actual balanced load. I just dont think the microprocessor can tell the difference. (no matter what the badger says I am gonna do a little more reading till I find some info on the two poles)


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*Arc Faults*



480sparky said:


> I guess I don't understand what current imbalance has to do with AFCIs anyway. AFCIs are not designed to monitor current flow. They are designed to detect the signature of arcing in a circuit.


I agree with you.


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

RIVETER said:


> I agree with you.



How can a breaker not monitor current flow. If the monitored current is in excess of the handle rating how then does it trip. You guys are confusing me tonight.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

nolabama said:


> How can a breaker not monitor current flow. If the monitored current is in excess of the handle rating how then does it trip. You guys are confusing me tonight.


 
That's the OCPD portion. The AFCI portion could care less about that.


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

480sparky said:


> That's the OCPD portion. The AFCI portion could care less about that.


They are seperate in a modern AFCI?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

nolabama said:


> They are seperate in a modern AFCI?


Not totally. The AFCI portion is tied to the mechanical portion of the breaker so it can trip it.

But the magnetic and thermal trip mechanisms of the breaker are probably the same mechanical jobs they have been for years.


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

480sparky said:


> Not totally. The AFCI portion is tied to the mechanical portion of the breaker so it can trip it.
> 
> But the magnetic and thermal trip mechanisms of the breaker are probably the same mechanical jobs they have been for years.



I thought the CT replaced the magnetic portion of the breaker. Mind you I have never taken the drill moter to the rivets of a $70 breaker.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

480sparky said:


> I guess I don't understand what current imbalance has to do with AFCIs anyway. AFCIs are not designed to monitor current flow. They are designed to detect the signature of arcing in a circuit.





RIVETER said:


> I agree with you.


All AFCIs have GFP at 30 - 50 mA, that is why they trip if you have imbalance.


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## ElectricBill (Aug 14, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> All AFCIs have GFP at 30 - 50 mA, that is why they trip if you have imbalance.


Bob, What is the source for this statement? Empirical evidence or have you found a spec somewhere? Thanks


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

ElectricBill said:


> Bob, What is the source for this statement? Empirical evidence or have you found a spec somewhere? Thanks


Easy way to test it for yourself. Take a solonoid tester and test an ark-fault from hot to ground. Most brands will snap off when you do that, due to the gfp circuit built in to the device. My thoughts are no matter what the maker's of the devices say, that is still the main component (besides the standard overload protection and short circuit protection found in standard breakers) in an ark fault breaker.


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## r_merc (Jul 5, 2008)

*Siemens*

Siemens is manufacturing and marketing 2 pole AFCI 15 and 20 Breakers for use as multiwire branch circuits OCPD. The tecnology already exists.


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

r_merc said:


> Siemens is manufacturing and marketing 2 pole AFCI 15 and 20 Breakers for use as multiwire branch circuits OCPD. The tecnology already exists.


I think that is what started this whole mess. I would like to see some technical data on that breaker. 

And to the Badger's comment about Ground fault trip ranges - yes that is technical data.


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## FES (Dec 10, 2009)

Wow!!! Look what I started!!! I'm in South Carolina and that is what I was told. I was in shock myself and didn't know the "technology" was there for a panel to support all AFCI's. I wasn't talking about the main breaker anyway.


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## rivermanchris (Dec 27, 2009)

Sadly, I think it is just a matter of time until every breaker installed in a Panel is an AFCI. I have wondered if they would make a breaker that did the job of both AFCI, GFI, and require that it be installed on every circuit.


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## r_merc (Jul 5, 2008)

*AF/GF Breaker*



rivermanchris said:


> Sadly, I think it is just a matter of time until every breaker installed in a Panel is an AFCI. I have wondered if they would make a breaker that did the job of both AFCI, GFI, and require that it be installed on every circuit.


Cutler Hammer already makes a combo GFI/AFCI type CH Circuit Breaker. Technology gotta love it.


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