# UK/Europe voltage question



## Meadow

theloop82 said:


> Hey all- I have a question that will sound dumb but google is giving me no help.
> 
> I have an X-ray machine here that is from Germany, and there is an air conditioner for the unit that is malfunctioning. I am measuring a 2 pole breaker in it with the designation of "L" and "N" and L to N, or L to PE both show 240v. Is that normal for over there? Do your 3 prong plugs carry 240v on one prong, neutral and earth on the other 2? Over here we have 120v on each leg and together they make 240 in single phase.
> 
> Do you have any experience with hooking up a 240v US device? would it still work? My gut says no but I have been proven wrong by electricity before.
> 
> Thanks for your help in advance.


In the UK and most of Europe power comes from 230/400Y configured transformers. Nominal voltage in reality is between 220 to 240 (380 to 415 phase to phase) depending on the region. Lights and appliances run on 230 volts which comes from a phase and a neutral. 3 phase motors run on 400 volts which is what you get between phases. 

Outlets through out most of Europe and all of the UK are a phase, neutral and ground. Its 230 volts between the hot and ground and 230 volts between the hot and neutral with zero volts between ground and neutral. Some older installations like those in Belgium for example are 133/230Y where the voltage between phases is 230 volts so everything is just connected phase to phase, no neutral is present. Motors are reconfigured from wye to delta to be able to run on these systems. 

Germany is 400Y, so 230 between any phase and ground is normal; phase to phase is 400. Think of these systems the way you would with US 120/208 3 phase Y, just running literally at double the voltage. It is normal for breakers to break both the phases as well as the neutral since its added safety in the event that the feeder neutral became disconnected upstream of the panel. In addition to that breakers frequently have GFI (RCD) protection at 30ma for safety reasons. 

However, the biggest difference isn't voltage. Most machines will not give a hoot if its getting 240 volts line to line of line to neutral. The big issue is the frequency. Europe uses 50Hz while the US and Canada go for 60Hz. A 60hz motor will over overheat and run slower on 50Hz. If it isn't listed to run on both 60Hz equipment will fail on 50Hz. Toasters and hair dryers don't care but most others do.


Just to add. If you ever want to run a US motor on 400 volts 50hz use a 480 volt 60hz rated motor. The lower voltage will offset any magnetic saturation from the lower frequency. The motor will turn slower, but it wont go into magnetic saturation.


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## theloop82

Thanks for the answers i appreciate it.


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## great68

Nice reply Meadow. May i add Europe has for a while now had a harmonised voltage and colour scheme. Officially single phase (between L (hot) & N is 230V & between phases 400V, although this is a cop out as no country has actually changed , as long as they are within a 10% + or - its ok. I have never found less than 242V in a domestic property or 414V in commercial.
The wiring colours also changed then . Single phase L (HOT) is brown & N neutral is blue. The earth (ground) has not changed & is still green/yellow. Our domestic cable has a bare earth cable but it must always be sleeved at terminations.

3 phase was red, yellow, blue & Black Neutral. Its now brown, ,black, grey & blue neutral. So blue was a phase at 230V is now Neutral & black was N is now a phase at 230V (And 400V between) As far as i am aware no one has been killed yet by this reversal and i personally mark all terminations of any 3 phase as L1, L2, L3 or N. 
I have been told the new (european) harmonised colours are so colour blind people can see them.

Please note the correct spelling of colour


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## theloop82

We leave out the extra U, because we are obsessed with efficiency on this side of the pond. Except when it comes to health care and cars.

I was poking around in the cabinet today, and even weirder it appears to be 240v (L1-N) and 60hz. I don't even know what to do with that.

My guess after thinking it through was they installed the x-ray equipment, realized they needed more cooling in the area, and went to Jim Bob's house of American AC equipment and bought a split unit. Then they wired her up and nothing (or poof) so instead of buy the unit meant for the voltage they had, the hvac contractor bought some European boards for the unit and installed them without making any note of it on the nameplate (which is a US nameplate) - That is the only explanation i can come up with to account for the sheer stupidity of how this thing worked before and doesn't work now. Gladly for me it is the HVAC guy's problem.


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## pete87

theloop82;1
I was poking around in the cabinet today said:


> You can hit it with 240 volt single phase , L to L , if all else checks out .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pete


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## 8V71

theloop82 said:


> I was poking around in the cabinet today, and even weirder it appears to be 240v (L1-N) and 60hz. I don't even know what to do with that.


Maybe I'm missing something but according to the information in your first post those readings seem normal to me.


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## theloop82

8V71 said:


> Maybe I'm missing something but according to the information in your first post those readings seem normal to me.


Its just a weird voltage for us over here, 240 to neutral is something you don't really encounter. Its usually 120 to neutral or 277 to neutral. I just don't know if i can tell the HVAC guy that if he hooks up a US domestic 240v unit to that configuration if it will work, not work, or blow up spectacularly. If it was a simpler unit i think it would work, but it has an inverter (VFD) built in so i'm not sure how that will handle the configuration.

I wanted to grab house power (208v phase to phase) and run it through a relay where the coil is hooked to the old feed out of the x-ray cabinet so it provides the same e-stop capability, but will be fed with something the unit might be more designed to accept, but nobody seems to think it is worth the effort and they are going ahead with replacing the board again.


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## Meadow

theloop82 said:


> Its just a weird voltage for us over here, 240 to neutral is something you don't really encounter. Its usually 120 to neutral or 277 to neutral. I just don't know if i can tell the HVAC guy that if he hooks up a US domestic 240v unit to that configuration if it will work, not work, or blow up spectacularly. If it was a simpler unit i think it would work, but it has an inverter (VFD) built in so i'm not sure how that will handle the configuration. I wanted to grab house power (208v phase to phase) and run it through a relay where the coil is hooked to the old feed out of the x-ray cabinet so it provides the same e-stop capability, but will be fed with something the unit might be more designed to accept, but nobody seems to think it is worth the effort and they are going ahead with replacing the board again.



If your getting 60hz on a 50hz system you've got a frequency converter somewhere


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## 8V71

theloop82 said:


> Its just a weird voltage for us over here, 240 to neutral is something you don't really encounter.


I'm confused, which isn't a rare occurrence. :001_huh:

I thought you were in the US working on a German machine? I'm in the states also. I wouldn't think the equipment cares how it gets 240 volts, line line or line neutral but don't listen to me cause I'm cunfuzed. :laughing:


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## theloop82

meadow said:


> If your getting 60hz on a 50hz system you've got a frequency converter somewhere


It is fed from a 60hz 480v line, converts to 240 L-N at 60hz. Which seems strange but i guess the x-ray machinery can handle it.



8v71 said:


> I thought you were in the US working on a German machine? I'm in the states also. I wouldn't think the equipment cares how it gets 240 volts, line line or line neutral but don't listen to me cause I'm cunfuzed.


You think you are confused, how do you think i feel. I am in the US working on a USDM Samsung split unit that some yobbo decided to feed out of the Seimens x-ray control panel that has the oddball voltage instead of feeding it from readily available house power that would be a sure thing.


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## pete87

Just make it happen Loopy . We had a German Book Binder room of equipment . 220/360 , 3ph , 50 hz. . We took a 440 xfmr and tapped it down to about 380 . 





Pete


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## dmxtothemax

The x ray machine is from Germany
it's rated for 230/240v.

Your in the USA ?
Then you just use use two hots
And dont use the neutral.

But it might not like 277v,
You need to find 240v.

So what's the problem ?

:whistling2:


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