# Bit Rusty, Can You help



## bushwickbill (Jan 17, 2010)

Hi All. Its been A while since I have had to break out the code book. To be sure i dont make a Fool out of myself can someone please shed some light on this.
I am helping a friend Fix up his old (30 year old) commercial kitchen. This takes place in B.C. Canada for starters. He was told (By inspector) that he had to get rid of some extension cords that are currently supplying power to a few freezers and small appliances.
My friend wants to add a two gang box with two outlets that will each be supplied with their own breaker for each outlet. I was looking at some rules and came across something about all new Commercial Kitchen outlets need to be 20 amp and also be GFCI protected regardless of its' proximity to a sink or water.
I Believe that houses you want to keep any outlets that you know are reserved for a deep freezer to be on their own dedicated circuit to avoid the circuit breaker from tripping and your food being ruined. That being said, Can two outlets be together in a metal two gang box and be 20 amp GFCI's and fed from a 12/3 armored. In this case they would share a neutral, I am trying to reuse a existing 12/3 armored cable for this application to save costs. Otherwise I would be running a new armored cable 
This cable was on a 3 phase breaker feeding some kind of cook pot. So my plan hopefully would be to use existing 12/3 cable and just switch the breakers out for 2 separate 20 amp single pole breakers. I would obviously have to move that white conductor that was part of 3 phase circuit to its now appropriate spot on the neutral bar.
The inspector came through and didnt say any of the other plugs that are currently in the kitchen had to be upgraded to GFCI outlets. I was only using the new construction rule that any new outlets in a commercial kitchen had to be a GFCI. Can anyone comment on this also?
Will what I want to work?
In the end I was wanting the kitchen to have two separate outlets for two separate freezers, and to be protected by GFCI protection.
I have been searching around and looking for the right answer, But I need to be 100% as all you know who wants to look silly when inspector comes back. Code book changes so often that you can miss a vital new rule and ruin someones big plans for a up to code kitchen in a hurry.
Any and all advice would be greatly appreciated.


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

First, you can't share a neutral with GFCI's. It don't work. Second, refrigeration equipment is notorious for GFCI nuisance tripping, but they are required. And, I don't think AC, or MC cable is approved for exposed work in commercial kitchens. Up there it might be different though.


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## bushwickbill (Jan 17, 2010)

If I am unable to share the neutral between two GFCI's, I guess there is no way to get two dedicated circuits to plug two deep freezes into using the existing 12/3 armored cable? Suppose settling on one 20 amp GFCI with a Regular 20 amp receptacle installed onto the load side of the GFCI first in line will work, But no two circuits, Hmmm.... 
Its only in Commercial kitchens that refrigeration equipment need GFCI protection? Otherwise if these were two regular outlets, Could I then turn them into two dedicated circuits? The inspector didnt mention the existing bx cables that are installed throughout the kitchen when whoever did the first reno. 
Thank you for the reply. Hard to believe I did my I.P. test in 2011 and already have forgot so much information. If you dont use it you lose it seems very true right now.
I have a Existing single gang box with a 12/3 feed. Is there anyway to get two GFCI circuits out of this configuration?


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

I have to ask what your background is. If you have written your interprovincial exam, you should know how to navigate a code book. Where is the permit coming from? In BC, you need to be an electrical contractor with an FSR to perform this work.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

You can either use a dp gfci breaker or install agfci in the first receptacle and share the neutral on the line side to the second gfci


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Show me the rule where it says this needs to be GFCI protected.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

In America, all commercial kitchens are deemed 'wash-down areas' ... as in they get VERY wet ... a rainstorm ... every day they are cleaned up.

This has driven our AHJs to insist on EMT or better for any surface mounted raceways... with stand offs ( Minerallac straps) ... and WP cables -- like the drops made by Woodhead (Molex) -- with all receptacles protected by GFI breakers or GFCI receptacles.

I can't imagine B.C. being much different.

If this is your first commercial kitchen, do expect to fall on your sword.

Such installs get picked apart by the AHJ.

Commercial kitchens are notorious for electrical snafus... very wet... with stainless steel conductors everywhere to hand.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

telsa said:


> In America, all commercial kitchens are deemed 'wash-down areas' ... as in they get VERY wet ... a rainstorm ... every day they are cleaned up.
> 
> This has driven our AHJs to insist on EMT or better for any surface mounted raceways... with stand offs ( Minerallac straps) ... and WP cables -- like the drops made by Woodhead (Molex) -- with all receptacles protected by GFI breakers or GFCI receptacles.
> 
> ...


if I may ad ...problems with grease & oils spilling over onto appliance
cords , dripping down toward receptacle outlets too:thumbsup:


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

99cents said:


> I have to ask what your background is. If you have written your interprovincial exam, you should know how to navigate a code book. Where is the permit coming from? In BC, you need to be an electrical contractor with an FSR to perform this work.


What happened to the nice Canadians, you know, the ones everybody in the world loves, no one says bad things about?


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

backstay said:


> What happened to the nice Canadians, you know, the ones everybody in the world loves, no one says bad things about?


This has nothing to do with being nice. I question this guy's competence. He's bringing up rules that don't exist. He claims that code rules change all the time. They don't. We have code cycles like anyone else. The BC Safety Authority has an on-line resource that describes the 2015 changes in detail. It isn't difficult to stay informed.

I'm also asking where his permit is coming from. A journeyman can't just pull a permit and help a friend. It doesn't work that way.


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## B-Nabs (Jun 4, 2014)

bushwickbill said:


> Hi All. Its been A while since I have had to break out the code book. To be sure i dont make a Fool out of myself can someone please shed some light on this.
> I am helping a friend Fix up his old (30 year old) commercial kitchen. This takes place in B.C. Canada for starters. He was told (By inspector) that he had to get rid of some extension cords that are currently supplying power to a few freezers and small appliances.
> My friend wants to add a two gang box with two outlets that will each be supplied with their own breaker for each outlet. I was looking at some rules and came across something about all new Commercial Kitchen outlets need to be 20 amp and also be GFCI protected regardless of its' proximity to a sink or water.
> I Believe that houses you want to keep any outlets that you know are reserved for a deep freezer to be on their own dedicated circuit to avoid the circuit breaker from tripping and your food being ruined. That being said, Can two outlets be together in a metal two gang box and be 20 amp GFCI's and fed from a 12/3 armored. In this case they would share a neutral, I am trying to reuse a existing 12/3 armored cable for this application to save costs. Otherwise I would be running a new armored cable
> ...


I'm not aware of a rule that says receptacles in commercial kitchens have to be 20A or GFCI. Code reference please?


joebanana said:


> First, you can't share a neutral with GFCI's. It don't work. Second, refrigeration equipment is notorious for GFCI nuisance tripping, but they are required. And, I don't think AC, or MC cable is approved for exposed work in commercial kitchens. Up there it might be different though.


He's talking about sharing the neutral to feed two separate GFCI receptacles. It will absolutely work, I do it all the time. The neutral can't be shared on the load side, but on the line side it will work fine. 

Sent from the unmarked van outside HackWork's house.


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

B-Nabs said:


> I'm not aware of a rule that says receptacles in commercial kitchens have to be 20A or GFCI. Code reference please?
> 
> He's talking about sharing the neutral to feed two separate GFCI receptacles. It will absolutely work, I do it all the time. The neutral can't be shared on the load side, but on the line side it will work fine.
> 
> Sent from the unmarked van outside HackWork's house.


Started in 2002.
http://iaeimagazine.org/magazine/2015/08/11/gfci-circuit-breakers-for-commercial-kitchens/
Lets just say it's not good practice to multiwire GFCI's, at least around these parts.


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## B-Nabs (Jun 4, 2014)

joebanana said:


> Started in 2002.
> http://iaeimagazine.org/magazine/2015/08/11/gfci-circuit-breakers-for-commercial-kitchens/
> Lets just say it's not good practice to multiwire GFCI's, at least around these parts.


My comment was in the context of Canadian code, as the OP says they are in BC, as am I. There is no code rule in Canada that requires this.

As for putting GFCI receptacles on MWBCs, please explain why that would be a problem. 

Sent from the unmarked van outside HackWork's house.


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

B-Nabs said:


> I'm not aware of a rule that says receptacles in commercial kitchens have to be 20A or GFCI. Code reference please?
> 
> He's talking about sharing the neutral to feed two separate GFCI receptacles. It will absolutely work, I do it all the time. The neutral can't be shared on the load side, but on the line side it will work fine.
> 
> Sent from the unmarked van outside HackWork's house.


How do you share a neutral on the load side of a GFCI? Sharing the neuch on GFCI's especially if motors, like refrigerators, are involved causes nuisance tripping, from back EMF.


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## B-Nabs (Jun 4, 2014)

Nobody said anything about sharing on the load side. Obviously that wouldn't work. OP said he had a 12/3 home run, and wanted to know if he could feed two dedicated GFCI receptacles with it. The answer is yes. One hot to each receptacle, and pigtail the neutral. Sharing a neutral on the line side of GFCIs is no issue at all. If he wants to extend from the load side, then those neutrals would have to be separate. If he wants to use GFCI breakers then he can use a 2 pole and it will work with a shared neutral also. 

Sent from the unmarked van outside HackWork's house.


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