# Newly Organized Critique Union Shop



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

TGGT said:


> And honestly they make some valid points. The same things I noticed when I got in. Tools and equipment in poor condition. Limited good tools or inefficient tools (like a hydraulic crimp tool you need to haul around and run a cord for). Safety practices and equipment not taken seriously. Not having tools like torque wrenches available for landing large wire in switch gear that have clearly printed torque specs.
> 
> These two guys were scoffing at how unprofessional it all looks. I guess I've become jaded. I notice these things too but pick my battles. What worries me is they'll become numb to it as well.
> 
> When working side by side with a nonunion EC recently, they definitely looked and worked like they were better equipped.


Wait, hold up...a non Union shop was better equipped?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Wait, hold up...a non Union shop was better equipped?


I think TGGT started smoking crack a couple weeks ago. It's the only explanation.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

HackWork said:


> I think TGGT started smoking crack a couple weeks ago. It's the only explanation.


Sure doesn't sound like any job I've been on.


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Wait, hold up...a non Union shop was better equipped?


Absolutely. We were using a scissor lift the company bought on Craigslist. It couldn't make the day without getting a charge it had to tie off hooks and horrible to drive. We have one cordless bandsaw to share among a crew of about 10 guys. Otherwise we have to borrow cords from the non union welders if we need power. We're always scrounging for cords. Now that I think about it the welders subsidize our poorly equipped company. We borrow tools from them daily, including a plumb bob laser.

The non union EC had clean, new 40 cal suits complete with fanned hoods for all men involved with turning on the switch gear as well as a safety rope tied to the guy flipping the breaker. All of their men had LOTO's and followed it diligently.

We have a hot suit. It's dirty and the gloves were inspected a few years ago, I've never seen anyone wear it. The foreman doesn't take any precautions flipping breakers. They sometimes use lockouts. I've seen apprentices mocked for testing buss before working. 

I asked for new harnesses because a few were torn and held together with electrical tape. They finally gave us some after the customer ejected a man because we didn't have enough lanyards to tie off so he went without one.

Hell, a few of the organized still wear their non union company t-shirts because the customer forbids union symbols and the company only provides the shirts for their long time employees. 

2 of the 3 union contractors I've worked for operated this way. Might not be the norm but it's a shame either way.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

TGGT said:


> Absolutely. We were using a scissor lift the company bought on Craigslist. It couldn't make the day without getting a charge it had to tie off hooks and horrible to drive. We have one cordless bandsaw to share among a crew of about 10 guys. Otherwise we have to borrow cords from the non union welders if we need power. We're always scrounging for cords. Now that I think about it the welders subsidize our poorly equipped company. We borrow tools from them daily, including a plumb bob laser.
> 
> The non union EC had clean, new 40 cal suits complete with fanned hoods for all men involved with turning on the switch gear as well as a safety rope tied to the guy flipping the breaker. All of their men had LOTO's and followed it diligently.
> 
> ...


That is far from the norm and not the way things are supposed to operate. Do you have a shop steward?


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

MechanicalDVR said:


> That is far from the norm and not the way things are supposed to operate. Do you have a shop steward?


Nope. Not on this job anyway. I was a steward on a previous job with a different contractor, it was a thankless position.

Didn't find much support from the hall and most guys either didn't understand the role or see stewards more as strawbosses (they are sometimes).


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

TGGT said:


> Nope. Not on this job anyway. I was a steward on a previous job with a different contractor, it was a thankless position.
> 
> Didn't find much support from the hall and most guys either didn't understand the role or see stewards more as strawbosses (they are sometimes).


Have you and your fellow members discussed this with your BA?


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Have you and your fellow members discussed this with your BA?


Yes. I've had some lengthy discussions with the BA, assistant BA, and organizers. They always seem receptive, know there is a problem but are hesitant to step on toes. Guys I talk to share my sentiments but they can be demoralized. Only so much one guy can do.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Sounds like the wrong local to be in............




My son told me they get to take a nap at lunchtime ..............:thumbsup:


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

TGGT said:


> Yes. I've had some lengthy discussions with the BA, assistant BA, and organizers. They always seem receptive, know there is a problem but are hesitant to step on toes. Guys I talk to share my sentiments but they can be demoralized. Only so much one guy can do.


These are things that need to be addressed on the floor at a regular meeting then. The more guys on board prior to the meeting the better. Then if nothing occurs in a positive light, follow the chain of command up the ladder.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

TGGT said:


> And honestly they make some valid points. The same things I noticed when I got in. Tools and equipment in poor condition. Limited good tools or inefficient tools (like a hydraulic crimp tool you need to haul around and run a cord for). Safety practices and equipment not taken seriously. Not having tools like torque wrenches available for landing large wire in switch gear that have clearly printed torque specs.
> 
> These two guys were scoffing at how unprofessional it all looks. I guess I've become jaded. I notice these things too but pick my battles. What worries me is they'll become numb to it as well.
> 
> When working side by side with a nonunion EC recently, they definitely looked and worked like they were better equipped.


Just a few questions:
Why does your sentence look like it starts halfway into the conversation?
Does your paycheck clear the bank?
Who is ultimately responsible for your personal safety?
Do you know what "drag up" means?

You might find that the non-Union guys you work with have a safety discount on their workmans comp. Unless it's a PW job, they might make much less than you.
If it is a PW job, they might make 12-15 or more per hour than you do.
Your shop might have had lost time injuries that takes years to come back from and the contractor had to just say screw it and pay the higher rates.
No matter what, you have a choice.
Personally, I think your foreman is either totally incompetent or some kind of a worm that's looking for a bonus or something.
FWIW, 30 years ago, people used to run shops just like this and it was a treat to get on a nice job with new equipment.
I would drag.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

MechanicalDVR said:


> These are things that need to be addressed on the floor at a regular meeting then. The more guys on board prior to the meeting the better. Then if nothing occurs in a positive light, follow the chain of command up the ladder.


Mech,
The Union meeting is going to be run on Roberts Rules of order.
He might be able to get a word in during the "good of the local" part of the addenda but, the guys have to build their own job conditions and create a good shop environment.
I don't like to work for a tool poor shop but, after the problem is identified, all we have is our chain of command. If you don't have a steward, you speak to your foreman. It's then the job of the foreman to bring it up to the GF, PM or shop superintendent. If the foreman doesn't do what you need him to do, you can just leave. You may or may not want to tell the foreman why.
You shouldn't passive aggressively go around you chain of command unless the job has a safety person that requires you to notify them of safety issues.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Wasted man hours due to inadequate tools and tool sharing is costly, especially if you're paying union rate. This contractor is lousy at math.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

The OP used to have to fill his car's trunk up to the brim with his own personal hand and power tools for his non-union employer before he got into the union. How soon we forget.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Suncoast Power said:


> Just a few questions:
> Why does your sentence look like it starts halfway into the conversation?
> Does your paycheck clear the bank?
> Who is ultimately responsible for your personal safety?
> ...


Yup, the 'every man for himself principle' needs to be fixed.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Suncoast Power said:


> Mech,
> The Union meeting is going to be run on Roberts Rules of order.
> He might be able to get a word in during the "good of the local" part of the addenda but, the guys have to build their own job conditions and create a good shop environment.
> I don't like to work for a tool poor shop but, after the problem is identified, all we have is our chain of command. If you don't have a steward, you speak to your foreman. It's then the job of the foreman to bring it up to the GF, PM or shop superintendent. If the foreman doesn't do what you need him to do, you can just leave. You may or may not want to tell the foreman why.
> You shouldn't passive aggressively go around you chain of command unless the job has a safety person that requires you to notify them of safety issues.


As I said "These are things that need to be addressed on the floor at a regular meeting then. The more guys on board prior to the meeting the better. Then if nothing occurs in a positive light, follow the chain of command up the ladder."

The contractor issues aren't for discussion on the floor of the meeting. The lack of acknowledgement and action on behalf of the BA to member issues are the subject of the complaint on the floor for "good of the local". The BA is ignoring upholding of the agreement and enforcing it. 

Who's job do you think it is to see that the work agreement is followed on both sides of the fence?


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

HackWork said:


> The OP used to have to fill his car's trunk up to the brim with his own personal hand and power tools for his non-union employer before he got into the union. How soon we forget.


This could be true but what does it say when he goes Union and gets to work for a contractor that doesn't go by the well established rules laid out in their contract?


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

I once worked as a PM for a large national contractor.
The upper management thought it would be efficient to get the best bender money could buy and have one or two guys in the shop make any kind of large pipe bend you could draw out.
Ill have to admit, it was a huge success.
not everyone is a pipe bending artist.
These guys were fast and could deliver it out like you were ordering a pizza.
They supported several jobs at a time.
Not every shop can hit a stride like that but, it worked out well for that particular time and place.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

MechanicalDVR said:


> The contractor issues aren't for discussion on the floor of the meeting. The lack of acknowledgement and action on behalf of the BA to member issues are the subject of the complaint on the floor for "good of the local". The BA is ignoring upholding of the agreement and enforcing it.
> 
> Who's job do you think it is to see that the work agreement is followed on both sides of the fence?


Accountability issue. Got it. :thumbsup:


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Suncoast Power said:


> Accountability issue. Got it. :thumbsup:


Yes Sir, is the BA doing his job or just collecting a check and kissing contractor ass? Does he get regular lunches and golf tee times courtesy of the signatories on the otherside of the table? He wouldn't be the first one. I have no clue how it goes in Florida but I've seen how it works in the Northeast. Some of my family members have been founding members of a couple locals from circa 1948.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

They have a political job.
Good thing is, you cant vote for them. You have to vote in a President that appoints them. If you have a puppet as a President and a strong BA, then its pretty much the BAs local and that's about it.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Don't listen to the fruit above, all agent positions in real locals are elected, including BM.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Suncoast Power said:


> They have a political job.
> Good thing is, you cant vote for them. You have to vote in a President that appoints them. If you have a puppet as a President and a strong BA, then its pretty much the BAs local and that's about it.


Is that how you guys roll down there? No wonder some locals have issues.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

HackWork said:


> Don't listen to the fruit above, all agent positions in real locals are elected, including BM.


I've never heard of them being appointed.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

LOOK.

It's going to take a while for the new EC -- new to the IBEW -- to get up to speed.

Is that really a surprise ?

Just how do you think things work in the real world ?
*
ECs gear up to IBEW // NECA standards and THEN join ?*

:no::no::no:


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

HackWork said:


> Don't listen to the fruit above, all agent positions in real locals are elected, including BM.


We elect our officers and our board members.
The President appoints the BA.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

HackWork said:


> Don't listen to the fruit above, all agent positions in real locals are elected, including BM.


That would dangling fruit to you sir. :icon_wink:


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

HackWork said:


> Don't listen to the fruit above, all agent positions in real locals are elected, including BM.


Are you keeping up your ticket now that you are contracting?


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Suncoast Power said:


> We elect our officers and our board members.
> The President appoints the BA.


To think people call the Tri-state locals corrupt!


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

This local would need a major culture overhaul to address some of these issues in my opinion. I think the leadership at the hall is doing the best they can with what they have. Our jurisdiction is very large.

The reason I'm staying put at the moment is this job is very very close to my house. But simply dragging will not do anything to make things better anyway. I think the new guys perspective is more valuable than they realize though.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

TGGT said:


> This local would need a major culture overhaul to address some of these issues in my opinion. I think the leadership at the hall is doing the best they can with what they have. Our jurisdiction is very large.
> 
> The reason I'm staying put at the moment is this job is very very close to my house. But simply dragging will not do anything to make things better anyway. I think the new guys perspective is more valuable than they realize though.




How long have you been in the ibew?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

The painters union is weird the way they do it. The members elect their district rep to the I.O. then the district Rep appoints the local agents for the locals he represents. Tough to make changes in a system like that. I am pretty sure thats how it works in the locals across the country, not just NJ. 

Our local can be like a two party system at times. The BA and president can have two very different views. At times it has even got ugly. Personally I think it is good to have a system of checks and balances. Not sure how it is across the country, but until recently the president was a non paid position. Now the president gets a very small paycheck compared to all the time he puts in, and that is after a full day of work in the trenches.

It is a shame about your tool situation. I am very spoiled when it comes to tools. My employer realizes the value of properly maintained tools and equipment. Another thing is he will never own a lift. For whatever reason they are always rentals. Very rare that I am on a job that any trade owns their lifts. I am not sure if it is a maintenance thing or a liability thing.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

In my local they made the president a full time job many years back. It's probably 120 or 130% of j-man's rate.


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

Biscuits said:


> How long have you been in the ibew?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


About 4 years now.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

cabletie said:


> It is a shame about your tool situation. I am very spoiled when it comes to tools. My employer realizes the value of properly maintained tools and equipment. *Another thing is he will never own a lift. For whatever reason they are always rentals. Very rare that I am on a job that any trade owns their lifts. I am not sure if it is a maintenance thing or a liability thing.*


The story is the same, from coast to coast. You'd have to be insane to own lifts as a contractor.

You WANT a situation whereby the dealer has to come a running when the lift breaks.

ANY attempt at repairing your own gear -- with the dealer's talent -- is ruinously expensive. He's going to fully recover ANY savings you have in mind via parts and labor, and he will be the ONLY source of parts you'll find.

Ancient and crippled machines are a drug on the market for a reason.

The Big Boys hammer the rental rates to the floor. They cease to be a matter of competitive advantage.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

telsa said:


> The story is the same, from coast to coast. You'd have to be insane to own lifts as a contractor.
> 
> You WANT a situation whereby the dealer has to come a running when the lift breaks.
> 
> ...


Every shop I have worked in has had at least a Genie lift. Like an AWP 25 that fits in a 2'x4' drop ceiling opening.


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

TGGT said:


> About 4 years now.




I see...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Every shop I have worked in has had at least a Genie lift. Like an AWP 25 that fits in a 2'x4' drop ceiling opening.


Those small AWPs are not that expensive and can be delivered to the site in the bed of a pickup. A 1930 can be bought for under 10 grand and moved around on a small trailer.
Bigger stuff, platform lifts and boom lifts have as many systems as a luxury car. I've rented those for as long as a couple of years, they did the job and I was happy to see every one of them leave on the Sunbelt truck.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

HackWork said:


> In my local they made the president a full time job many years back. It's probably 120 or 130% of j-man's rate.


Our President isn't a paid position but is appointed as an assistant BA, a paid position.


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## drewsserviceco (Aug 1, 2014)

Although I've seen it both ways, I personally found it more common to be a breakdown at the job level where the foreman (or GF) was the cause for not having the proper equipment for a safe an productive job versus some kind of mandate coming from the owner down. 

I've personally seen what an out of work situation will do to a membership where the average JW is all to happy (job scared) to have a job to make a stand for anything and the foremen rule the roost and (mistakenly) run the job thread bare just so that they look good...

All the while they could be made to look like superstars anyway with higher productivity using the right equipment and benefitting from the boosted morale. 

It can be quite demoralizing to waste so much time looking for very basic tools and materials, knowing how tight margins can be, knowing how cut throat the market is and how expensive you truly are.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

drewsserviceco said:


> Although I've seen it both ways, I personally found it more common to be a breakdown at the job level where the foreman (or GF) was the cause for not having the proper equipment for a safe an productive job versus some kind of mandate coming from the owner down.
> 
> I've personally seen what an out of work situation will do to a membership where the average JW is all to happy (job scared) to have a job to make a stand for anything and the foremen rule the roost and (mistakenly) run the job thread bare just so that they look good...
> 
> ...


Very true, but when anyone ignores problems they just grow wild. Addressing small issues keeps things running smooth.


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