# Work refusal/unsafe ?



## 636to105 (Jan 27, 2015)

Hi all , had a question for everybody .
So I am new to the communication industry.
I started with a non union shop this summer and had a situation I wanted to run past everyone . I’m still learning /training .
Yesterday I was told to go up a 14 foot aluminum a frame ladder , and reach a bit and fish a pipe .

Now I’m cool with ladders and stuff but my previous job was really nothing more than 6-10 feet . I mentioned I didn’t feel comfortable doing it as on the third last rug I had to reach stil and the second to last my head would have been hitting the celing (20ft) I’m a shorter guy so reaching in that instance didn’t “seem safe”.

I was not offered any alternative . Since due to uncontrollable circumstances the job didn’t need 4 guys . 

The supervisor on the job simply gave me a look and ran up the ladder and just said “what’s the problem ?”

Since there was no other jobs was sent home for the remainder of the day .

In Ontario (Canada) here we have a law about fall arrest and such over 10 feet .

Seeing as I am 
On probation , I was let go this morning with just a “it isn’t working out” 

My question to you is was this legal ? I’m not really sure. Should I have called the ministry ? Should I still ? I mean it’s probation I get it they could just use any old excuse to get rid of me .
I’m now in the process of applying for EI in the short term 

Any help would be greatly appreciated .


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

Trying not to read between the lines but on a 14 foot ladder from second to top rung your head will touch a 20 foot celing yet you claim to be a short guy.

It also sounds like you never went up the ladder you just guessed that you would have to stretch.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

One word about the 14' ladder. Don't look down. They sometimes deflect several inches midway up.


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## 636to105 (Jan 27, 2015)

I did go up and try . I attempted to from the 3rd rung and had to reach . So I tried the second rung , I went up , maybe it wasn’t the celing but part of the a frame or conduit but I clearly couldn’t . 

I really wasn’t looking to be poked at or whatever , I lost my job because of something that seemed unsafe to me . I just wanted peoples thoughts on that work at that height etc . I’m new to the business .


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

Management is the root of all accidents IMO. They set the tone. Unfortunately you'll be more likely to do something unsafe to appease them to keep your job.

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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

636to105 said:


> Hi all , had a question for everybody .
> So I am new to the communication industry.
> I started with a non union shop this summer and had a situation I wanted to run past everyone . I’m still learning /training .
> Yesterday I was told to go up a 14 foot aluminum a frame ladder , and reach a bit and fish a pipe .
> ...


We don't know what you consider safe/unsafe and legal/illegal and what "reach" is. "Third to the last rung"? Does that mean you were standing on the fourth from the top of the ladder rung? Doesn't seem problematic to me.

Were you offered any safety equipment such as a safety belt? Could it be it was just not safe for you, but safe and legal for someone else?

If it was legal, but unsafe to you, you should just let it go. 
If you don't know if it was legal or safe, you should let it go.
If it was illegal and unsafe, you should STILL probably let it go.

You'll be awhile before you build enough credibility, respect and stature to get away with ratting out a contractor on a questionable safe violation. 

Hang in there and good luck.


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## 636to105 (Jan 27, 2015)

See that’s more what I was hoping for .thank you . No I was not offered anything else or another means to make it more “safe” . Literally , If I was a couple inches taller i would have been on . 
I was curious because the labour board here/OHSA says “you don’t have to do work or use anything YOU consider to be unsafe “ 

Ontario people’s , would like to hear what your take on it is .


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Do you have working at heights training?

You could have called the ministry of labour when you were on the job, but They can’t help you now. 
You can also try for a wrongful dismissal. we do have the right to refuse and an employer can not fire you for it, but that will also be tough to prove. 

Take it as a learning moment for the next time


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## 636to105 (Jan 27, 2015)

eddy current said:


> Do you have working at heights training?
> 
> You could have called the ministry of labour when you were on the job, but They can’t help you now.
> You can also try for a wrongful dismissal, but that will also be tough to prove.
> ...


I do . There was no lift available and I was taught to never tie off to the frame up there. This is what I was thinking , I got someone else possibly lined up . What does it really do to call now right ? I mean sure but being on probation can just mean they could make up a dozen other excuses . 

I mean the supervisor that ended up doing it doesn’t like new people other than his cousin and what does it really prove at this point other than to stir up **** . 

Thanks . That’s the way I’m looking at it . Learning tool .


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

All ladders normally have a mark that says something like "no climbing beyond this rung". 

If you went up the ladder and could not reach with out going over the mark then the correct response was to ask for a taller ladder. Telling a boss that you wont do something is never going to get you anywhere. Pointing out to a boss what you require to do the job safely normally works out fine. 

Theres parts of my job i hate like being over 100' on a high lift but im trained in it and its not breaking any rules so i have to grin and bear it. (if you get along with the guys you work with, someone will normally step in and take over if they know you have a problem with heights).


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

You proved you're not comfortable working at heights. The employer needs folks who are. They let you go. Probably what I'd do too. I'm failing to see anything unsafe here. Working off tall ladders is one of the riskiest things we do on a daily basis, but hardly illegal. Not everyone is cut out for working from heights. I guess you're in that category, and it will hurt your ability to be employed from time to time.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

We had a guy fired at my job recently for refusing to do something he claimed was unsafe, by the way. It was determined during the internal investigation that what he was being asked to so was not unsafe, against company policy, or against any law or OSHA requirement- he was simply uncomfortable with it. He was officially fired for "insubordination".


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> You proved you're not comfortable working at heights. The employer needs folks who are. They let you go. Probably what I'd do too. I'm failing to see anything unsafe here. Working off tall ladders is one of the riskiest things we do on a daily basis, but hardly illegal. Not everyone is cut out for working from heights. I guess you're in that category, and it will hurt your ability to be employed from time to time.


In Ontario you must be tied off if your feet are at or above 10 feet reguardless of what your working off of so yes, it was illegal. If caught the worker and the supervisor would have been fined. That’s not to say it isn’t done anyway, especially by smaller companies on smaller jobs.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> We had a guy fired at my job recently for refusing to do something he claimed was unsafe, by the way. It was determined during the internal investigation that what he was being asked to so was not unsafe, against company policy, or against any law or OSHA requirement- he was simply uncomfortable with it. He was officially fired for "insubordination".


Can’t be fired for that in Ontario either. We have the right to refuse any work and even if it is found to be safe, you can not be forced to do it or can not be fired or laid off because of it. Realistically, you will most likely get laid off anyway. The employer will just give some other reason on paper.


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## gnuuser (Jan 13, 2013)

Regardless of whether the contractor is union or non union If they employ personnel to perform a task they cannot legally ask you to perform a dangerous task without providing adequate safety gear.


to the OP. did he provide you with a fall arrest device (harness and lanyard)
did he provide training in the use of the harness and lanyards?
there are warnings on these ladders and they must be followed to the letter!


do you have a wrongful termination suit?
Yes you do! and since they terminated you file a complaint with osha or your department of labor and let them roast their arses



But in my honest opinion they are not worth working for if they expect you to work unsafely!


my own bosses were a lot of jerks but they did provide us with proper gear and training!


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

eddy current said:


> In Ontario you must be tied off if your feet are at or above 10 feet reguardless of what your working off of so yes, it was illegal. If caught the worker and the supervisor would have been fined. That’s not to say it isn’t done anyway, especially by smaller companies on smaller jobs.



Then ask for a harness and tie off. If the supervisor refuses then you have a case. If you have been trained as the OP claims is it the supervisors job to go get you a harness, dress you then tie you off.

My supervisor and a bunch of safety inspectors seem to think its my job as i signed off on the training to do it right. There job is to write me up if i do not follow the safety procedure.


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

My company has a rule that a anyone employed as a electrician or instrument tech is not allowed to use a aluminum ladder and could face blar blar blar blar including termination. 

Doesn't matter if the work you are doing involves anything electrical (helping a wrench with a mechanical problem means he can stand on the aluminum and i have to go find a fiberglass ladder).


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

I can only reach about 7'. My son can reach 8'. We are both immune to any fear of heights.
We are often asked to check out aircraft warning lights. I might have posted one or more of them.
The GC that gets these jobs for us is a pro.
He tells the owner they need a steeple Jack, rigging, a safety plan.
Or,
There might be an electrician crazy enough to put a ladder on a roof.
I have no idea what margin he puts on our work but, standing price is $600 per lamp. They are all dual lamp.
Last job had 10 lamps. It took 3 hours. Just for validation, we checked out keys for several days when we were in the neighborhood.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

gpop said:


> eddy current said:
> 
> 
> > In Ontario you must be tied off if your feet are at or above 10 feet reguardless of what your working off of so yes, it was illegal. If caught the worker and the supervisor would have been fined. That’s not to say it isn’t done anyway, especially by smaller companies on smaller jobs.
> ...


The employer must supply and the supervisor must enforce. As per the OP, the supervisor ran up the ladder himself and said “what’s the problem?” So to me they were not doing their job. Yes the OP should have asked for a harness but the supervisor was clearly expecting him to just do the work without. A good supervisor would have TOLD the OP he must wear one, shown him where to anchor off and supplied it all, especially for a new worker. That supervisor clearly does not realize his responsibilities and if there was an injury, the supervisor and worker would have both been at fault.
If the OP was working without the PPE and fell, the supervisor can be held responsible especially if he knew the worker was working without it so yes, it is the supervisors job to get him a harness


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

eddy current said:


> The employer must supply and the supervisor must enforce. As per the OP, the supervisor ran up the ladder himself and said “what’s the problem?” So to me they were not doing their job. Yes the OP should have asked for a harness but the supervisor was clearly expecting him to just do the work without. A good supervisor would have TOLD the OP he must wear one, shown him where to anchor off and supplied it all, especially for a new worker. That supervisor clearly does not realize his responsibilities and if there was an injury, the supervisor and worker would have both been at fault.
> If the OP was working without the PPE and fell, the supervisor can be held responsible especially if he knew the worker was working without it so yes, it is the supervisors job to get him a harness


I agree.

I think the supervisor acted like a curmudgeon who probably sees helpers
and apprentices as an interference and IMO has no leadership skills at all.

OP...move on...he was d**k...you can do better..Next time you interview
tell the interviewer what happened and explain you are willing to learn to
get over your fear of heights but that your not there yet.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

MDShunk said:


> You proved you're not comfortable working at heights. The employer needs folks who are. They let you go. Probably what I'd do too. I'm failing to see anything unsafe here. Working off tall ladders is one of the riskiest things we do on a daily basis, but hardly illegal. Not everyone is cut out for working from heights. I guess you're in that category, and it will hurt your ability to be employed from time to time.


That's about how I see it. Apparently Canadians are scared of heights.


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## trentonmakes (Mar 21, 2017)

First off,
What self respecting electrician uses an alumunumnum ladder???
Silly canadians.

You guys tie off on an A frame ladder?


Im ok on ladders, the 3rd, [2nd rung], down I can deal with pretty comfortably. The lasy rung and top give me something my shins can lean on to help keep me balanced.

I get a bit uncomfortable on the top rung or standing on the top, especially on bigger ladders. I do it on occasion, but I dont like it and pass it off if I can to someone else. Sometimes, thats not an option.

If I read the OP right an he was on the rung before the last, no offense but you need to buck up. The top rung says not to stand on or go above. 

Unless this ladder was in some precarious position, sometimes you just do what needs to be done. Its the nature of the beast in this trade.

It reads like your afraid of heights and inexperienced working from ladders.

Im sure the safety nazis will beat me up over this, but the fact is many companies disregard these safety rules when it comes to ladders. Unless the work puts you in some other precarious position 90% of guys are not tying off.

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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

I will reserve judgement because I don't have a clear picture from your description. (Keep in mind I might very well fire someone for being unable to make clear descriptions.) 

If you feel nervous, that's inevitable, fear of heights is a sign of intelligence. However, if you're rattled beyond a certain point you can't work safely even if it's legal / acceptable situation by industry standards and regulatory requirements. I'd say you're right not to do it, even if you get canned - you can argue after the fact whether it was your issue or an unsafe condition. I would never urge someone to try to work if they were more than that inevitable level of nervousness. 

If you're realistic, very few workers are going to come to the job with every possible aptitude and ability. If an otherwise promising apprentice can't hack safe, necessary work at height, I'd grant some latitude and see if they could work up to it. But not everyone is sensible about this.


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## trentonmakes (Mar 21, 2017)

636to105 said:


> Yesterday I was told to go up a 14 foot aluminum a frame ladder , and reach a bit and fish a pipe .
> 
> Now I’m cool with ladders and stuff but my previous job was really nothing more than 6-10 feet . I mentioned I didn’t feel comfortable doing it as on the third last rug I had to reach stil and the second to last my head would have been hitting the celing (20ft) I’m a shorter guy so reaching in that instance didn’t “seem safe”.


2nd to last rung???

Its hard to picture the way he worded this but it clearly seems he was never on the last rung of the ladder before his head hit the ceiling.
Dunno if pipe was above or below but the other guy clearly had no issues. 
I think he just psyched himself out over the whole thing.

Could you not just straddle the top of the ladder and fish the pipe? 

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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

The ladder rules are don't use the top "not-a-step" or the next to top step on a stepladder. On a 14' stepladder the next step down, the last one the rules permit, is at about 11'6," and you can safely work on something at about 18' high. 

I'd never urge someone to use the second to last rung, and I might fire someone for standing on the top of a 14' ladder. 

Falling off the top of a 14' extension ladder is going to be like falling out a second story window onto concrete, best case is a trip to the emergency room.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

trentonmakes said:


> 2nd to last rung???
> 
> Its hard to picture the way he worded this but it clearly seems he was never on the last rung of the ladder before his head hit the ceiling.
> Dunno if pipe was above or below but the other guy clearly had no issues.
> ...


Legally no you can not sit or stand on the top or second rung of a ladder. Pretty sure it says that on every ladder, even in the US. Sure lots of people break the rules, especially hacks working on small jobs. 

Also we must be tied to a proper anchor if our feet are at 10 feet or higher, doesn’t matter what your standing on. How is a ladder different? Only if there is a proper guard rail can we work and not be tied off.


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## trentonmakes (Mar 21, 2017)

splatz said:


> The ladder rules are don't use the top "not-a-step" or the next to top step on a stepladder. On a 14' stepladder the next step down, the last one the rules permit, is at about 11'6," and you can safely work on something at about 18' high.
> 
> I'd never urge someone to use the second to last rung, and I might fire someone for standing on the top of a 14' ladder.
> 
> Falling off the top of a 14' extension ladder is going to be like falling out a second story window onto concrete, best case is a trip to the emergency room.


Last 2 guys I worked for seem to do it reguarly. Instead of getting a bigger ladder they stand on the top or last rung.
Ive done it myself, though I dont like it and do feel uncomfortable.

I guess its just quicker in thier mind, that is until theres an accident. 

They bust on you about it, saying your a puzzy, and I admit, I feel like one in that situation as I will gladly let someone else go up if I dont have too. They know how I feel about it so they work with me. I will go up extension ladders no problem or lifts, but that last rung bothers the chit out of me for some reason.

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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

eddy current said:


> Legally no you can not sit or stand on the top or second rung of a ladder. Pretty sure it says that on every ladder, even in the US. Sure lots of people break the rules, especially hacks working on small jobs.
> 
> Also we must be tied to a proper anchor if our feet are at 10 feet or higher, doesn’t matter what your standing on. How is a ladder different? Only if there is a proper guard rail can we work and not be tied off.


So how do you set the proper anchor? Scissor lift?


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## trentonmakes (Mar 21, 2017)

Going_Commando said:


> So how do you set the proper anchor? Scissor lift?


I was wondering about replacing lights in a living room with tall ceilings??? 
What do you tie off too?

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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Going_Commando said:


> So how do you set the proper anchor? Scissor lift?





trentonmakes said:


> I was wondering about replacing lights in a living room with tall ceilings???
> What do you tie off too?


I believe the Canadian solution is using scaffolding for these things, which I find funny because you have to climb a ladder to get onto the scaffolding. But seriously think about what this is going to involve in an average commercial cubicle farm to do anything to the lights, what a disaster.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

trentonmakes said:


> I will go up extension ladders no problem or lifts, but that last rung bothers the chit out of me for some reason.


I hate to be the bearer of bad news but that is the voice of reason speaking to you


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

trentonmakes said:


> Last 2 guys I worked for seem to do it reguarly. Instead of getting a bigger ladder they stand on the top or last rung.
> Ive done it myself, though I dont like it and do feel uncomfortable.


Thats the nice thing about a double sided A frame ladder. You can stand with one foot on either side and nut nip the top of the ladder.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Going_Commando said:


> eddy current said:
> 
> 
> > Legally no you can not sit or stand on the top or second rung of a ladder. Pretty sure it says that on every ladder, even in the US. Sure lots of people break the rules, especially hacks working on small jobs.
> ...


Whatever it takes. Google “first man up”. There are a lot of things you can buy that allow you to install an anchor with your feet on the ground.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

Read all of these....even thougfht many above posts may disagree 
with each other , majority are very valid points.

I still say , the bottom line here is , this guy is a newbie..1st 
year apprentice.

IME , most newbie's are young , little experience and usually
the apprenticeship is their first construction job. Ladders may
be a first for them as well.

You got to let them start off working low (4' ladder) and adjust
their way up to the heights. It takes time...just like the apprenticeship
takes time.

Any one arguing he was "hired to do a job" is conveniently leaving
out the fact that he was also hired with no experience hence the 
apprenticeship.

OP definitely seems afraid and not ready for 14'.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

gpop said:


> Thats the nice thing about a double sided A frame ladder. You can stand with one foot on either side and nut nip the top of the ladder.



I hate A-frame ladders. Hate them.
I almost fell once from one and have not been on one since.
The ladder tipped sideways and almost fell over with me straddling the two or three top rungs.
If I had not been close to a roof support, I would have fallen. But I was able to grab the support and my ground man helped right it.


Besides they weigh a ton and are difficult to move around by yourself.
When I see them I always think "hack contractor" or cheap ass contractor.



If I had any say so, they would be banned from use.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

I have no fear of ladders. Maybe I'm just dumb.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

John Valdes said:


> gpop said:
> 
> 
> > Thats the nice thing about a double sided A frame ladder. You can stand with one foot on either side and nut nip the top of the ladder.
> ...


I have been on 3 jobs where step ladders of any kind were not allowed. Two were small to medium sized jobs (20 - 30 electricians) and one pretty big job (300+ electricians)

I personally hate working off of small baker scaffolds but technically a ladder is not a work platform.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

When you look at the OSHA book , everything under the sun is "unsafe" and designated a violation and a fine is in order to correct you from doing this thing...

Contact OSHA Comrade


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

I wouldn't buy one myself unless I basically bought one for a specific site, but one of my customers bought a couple for their maintenance staff which I use whenever I do work for them. They are a stepladder everyone can find something to like about:










https://www.wernerco.com/us/en/view/Products/Climbing Equipment/Step Ladders/PT7400-4C/PT7410-4C


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## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

I have been on some rediculously safe jobs. Like filling out a hot work permit for using a hot box in the sand next to a pier. 

On that job the safety guy said as long as you were using the ladder the way it was intended to be used, you didn't have to tie off. Still kinda hard to keep three points of contact and still work. If you were working near a leading edge, or open window, you had to tie off. I have no problem with that. 

I don't do ladders like I used to. Mostly small lifts these days.


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## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

Here's my favorite 12' step ladder.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

eddy current said:


> I have been on 3 jobs where step ladders of any kind were not allowed. Two were small to medium sized jobs (20 - 30 electricians) and one pretty big job (300+ electricians)
> 
> I personally hate working off of small baker scaffolds but technically a ladder is not a work platform.


Personal preference, I always liked Baker scaffold if not using a lift.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

cabletie said:


> I have been on some rediculously safe jobs. Like filling out a hot work permit for using a hot box in the sand next to a pier.
> 
> On that job the safety guy said as long as you were using the ladder the way it was intended to be used, you didn't have to tie off. Still kinda hard to keep three points of contact and still work. If you were working near a leading edge, or open window, you had to tie off. I have no problem with that.
> 
> I don't do ladders like I used to. Mostly small lifts these days.


Earle pier?


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

I suspect I'm not much different than anyone else- I'd prefer to work off of a lift any time over a ladder. But... there are times when "old school" is the right thing to do. Places where it would be difficult (or impossible) to maneuver into, for instance, and jobs of very short duration. Often times I could drag out a ladder, be up the ladder, get the job done, and be back down before someone else even figured out where the lift was parked last time it was used. Is this a matter of putting speed over safety? Not in my mind, or ladders would be "illegal". Sometimes it's the right tool for the job. Carpenters use a nail gun all day, but they still carry a hammer.


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## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Earle pier?


Coast guard station in Point Pleasant. GC from Minnesota. The coast guard station rebuild on Sandy Hook was even worse with over the top safety. That GC (contractor killer) was from Florida. Both GCs do work all over the country.


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## Rora (Jan 31, 2017)

Everyone is debating the ladder aspect, but I think OP was specifically trying to get clarification on the point of refusing unsafe work... he felt unsafe, and had been told he was allowed to refuse work if he felt it was unsafe. He refused the work and was punished for it. I think that's a very understandable confusion and there's some nuance to discuss here.

Since there are strict guidelines on safety, what is the point of bringing in something subjective like how you feel? I'd assume it would have to be because there are variables that can't be accounted for in legislature, like experience level. If an employee is tasked with something that is otherwise legal and an industry standard practice, but has never done it before, they would probably feel unsafe because they lack the proper training and exposure, and rightfully so... that person should be trained so they don't hurt themselves, not fired. Also, it gives employees preemption on the matter if they are unsure of the legislature, because ultimately safety is more important than productivity. Just a guess, I don't really know for sure if that is the intent of the phrase. There is also the flip side that this could be abused to avoid work in an unreasonable fashion, and it's at least somewhat debatable whether refusing to climb the ladder was unreasonable.

On one hand, OP is right in that sense because he legitimately felt it was an unsafe thing to do, and should not have been let go. On the other hand, the experienced guys know that this is more or less an industry practice and he will either need to learn to deal with it or suffer the consequences "off the record". It's not like a person needs training on how to climb a ladder, the issue there is fear of heights and if he can't get over that, that will be a problem.

However, I think a more interesting topic here is the fact that virtually every employer will ask you to cut corners in the sense that following every. single. safety guideline is simply impractical. I strongly suspect the fact that safety laws are so overbearing is for the same reason civil law is--it gives enforces of said law more "gotchas" to leverage towards what they've intuitively determined to be unsafe or illegal. E.g., a car driving around a dark neighborhood at 2 AM is not doing anything illegal, but can be pulled over for a broken taillight so the officer has a means of checking it out.

So the real question is, does your employer ask you to cut corners on unreasonable de jure which don't really make you all that much safer in practice, or are they actually treating you like a disposable resource and cutting corners on safety de facto. To OP, you can expect the former in pretty much any line of work. Perhaps it's a matter of inexperience that would lead you to categorize what happened as the latter.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

This whole thing about being able to refuse to do something otherwise legal because you're scared sounds like some Bizarro-land rule. But, I guess it's a real rule in Canada? Just seems so strange to me.


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

MDShunk said:


> This whole thing about being able to refuse to do something otherwise legal because you're scared sounds like some Bizarro-land rule. But, I guess it's a real rule in Canada? Just seems so strange to me.


Today im in a pond rowing a boat with 2 small alagators swimming around....im going to tell them im not doing it and go to my safe space andcry........already had the fishing rod (1/2" emt) confiscated


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> This whole thing about being able to refuse to do something otherwise legal because you're scared sounds like some Bizarro-land rule. But, I guess it's a real rule in Canada? Just seems so strange to me.


First thing, what the OP described is not otherwise legal, working over 10' you must be protected from falling in Canada. I'm sure it must be the same in the US, no?

Second, not having the right to refuse what you believe is unsafe on a workplace is more Bizarro-land than having that right. Your boss tells you to do something, you feel it is unsafe but must do it anyway? That is ok to you?

It's not like you can refuse anything you want and just sit on your azz, there is a process and there is a lot to it, but in short the worker can only refuse what they believe to be either unsafe, or against the Occupational safety Act. A supervisor and or a safety rep must investigate. If it is deemed that it is safe, that worker can not be forced to do the work nor can they be fired or penalized for bringing up what they believed to be a safety issue.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

eddy current said:


> First thing, what the OP described is not otherwise legal, working over 10' you must be protected from falling in Canada. I'm sure it must be the same in the US, no?


 Nope. Fixed in place ladders is 24 feet. You can work off of a portable ladder of unlimited height as long as you have 3 points of contact. 



eddy current said:


> Second, not having the right to refuse what you believe is unsafe on a workplace is more Bizarro-land than having that right. Your boss tells you to do something, you feel it is unsafe but must do it anyway? That is ok to you?


It not only is okay with me, it seems normal. This 10-foot rule you have aside, if the practice is otherwise legal and you refuse to do it, I think you should be sent packing. Clearly we come from different countries and sets of life experience.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> Nope. Fixed in place ladders is 24 feet. You can work off of a portable ladder of unlimited height as long as you have 3 points of contact.
> 
> I wonder how does one work while maintaining 3 points of contact? Not many things can get done with only one hand. I find that rule funny.
> 
> It not only is okay with me, it seems normal. This 10-foot rule you have aside, if the practice is otherwise legal and you refuse to do it, I think you should be sent packing. Clearly we come from different countries and sets of life experience.


Has nothing to do with my life experiences, like many of us I spent most of my career on a ladder (above 10' and not tied, standing on the top etc.) and feel most comfortable on one compared to any other type of work platform. I'm just telling you what the rules here are, I didn't write them. And of course many people do not follow them, just like many other rules. For instance, I was driving way over the speed limit on my way to work this morning along with 90% of the other cars on the highway.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

eddy current said:


> I wonder how does one work while maintaining 3 points of contact? Not many things can get done with only one hand. I find that rule funny.


One handed work is rough. 

Before the rule was amended to specifically call out two hands and one foot or two feet and one hand, you could compliantly use a positioning belt and free up both hands. That is no more. I've changed a 400W HID ballast one-handed in a trunnion fixture before. Probably 20-couple feet up on a 32 foot extension ladder. It's awkward as hell- I had to hold it in place with the top of my hard hat to start a bolt. I only did it that way because I noticed our safety man walked by and was doing an audit within eyesight of me. How the heck I didn't drop something is a small miracle in itself. I'm always dropping stuff. Technically we're supposed to cone off the drop zone, so to speak. I don't know if that's an OSHA thing or my workplace's rules.


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## SISYPHUS (Aug 13, 2018)

So ladders, how many of us held a cert ,and were comfortable our 1st yr?


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

SISYPHUS said:


> So ladders, how many of us held a cert ,and were comfortable our 1st yr?


There's a ladder certification? :001_huh:

My dad had us boys climbing up and down ladders since we were little kids. I didn't even know there were actual real living people people with a fear of heights until my late adolescence/early adulthood. I thought it was only in movies.


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## SISYPHUS (Aug 13, 2018)

MDShunk said:


> There's a ladder certification? :001_huh:
> 
> .


*OSHA Stairways and Ladders Compliance Training*, google is your friend

so.....and while we're dumpin' on the noob, just how long have you been in this trade ??


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

I've never had a day of OSHA training in my life because I have common sense. 

Anyway, ladders are an essential part of our trade. I've been climbing them since day one as I'm sure all experienced electricians have. Anyway with an issue with climbing equipment should really consider if they belong in the trade.


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

MTW said:


> I've never had a day of OSHA training in my life because I have common sense.
> 
> Anyway, ladders are an essential part of our trade. I've been climbing them since day one as I'm sure all experienced electricians have. Anyway with an issue with climbing equipment should really consider if they belong in the trade.


Or give them time to acclimate. I forced myself to do things I would never consider before I got into this trade. Walking steel with a harness and nothing to grab onto, or any extension ladder work. I used to be terrified of heights.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

SISYPHUS said:


> *OSHA Stairways and Ladders Compliance Training*, google is your friend
> 
> so.....and while we're dumpin' on the noob, just how long have you been in this trade ??


I think you're confusing required training with a certification. Where I'm at now we probably have 30 or 40 required annual trainings on things. I don't confuse them with a certification, so I'm not sure why you are. 

And the dumping on a noob thing.... well, you and I both know that's preposterous.


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

Got pictures? Pictures can be your friend. If you show them to the right people, they can answer your questions better. Or they can be entered as evidence.............. if ya know what I mean.


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## SISYPHUS (Aug 13, 2018)

MDShunk said:


> > I think you're confusing *required training with a certification.* Where I'm at now we probably have 30 or 40 required annual trainings on things. I don't confuse them with a certification, so I'm not sure why you are.
> 
> 
> Sounds like an in house policy , grand your company has that.
> ...


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

MDShunk said:


> Nope. Fixed in place ladders is 24 feet. You can work off of a portable ladder of unlimited height as long as you have 3 points of contact.
> 
> It not only is okay with me, it seems normal. This 10-foot rule you have aside, if the practice is otherwise legal and you refuse to do it, I think you should be sent packing. Clearly we come from different countries and sets of life experience.


OSHA

https://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=STANDARDS&p_id=10836
Fixed-ladder means a ladder that cannot be readily moved or carried because it is an integral part of a building or structure. A side-step fixed ladder is a fixed ladder that requires a person getting off at the top to step to the side of the ladder side rails to reach the landing. A through fixed ladder is a fixed ladder that requires a person getting off at the top to step between the side rails of the ladder to reach the landing. 

if your working off a portable ladder above 6' in construction and 4' in general industry you have to be tied off.

1926.501(b)(1)

"Unprotected sides and edges." Each employee on a walking/working surface (horizontal and vertical surface) with an unprotected side or edge which is 6 feet (1.8 m) or more above a lower level shall be protected from falling by the use of guardrail systems, safety net systems, or personal fall arrest systems.


i recommend OP files complaint with proper authorities for safety violation, you will be helping helping the next guy there out and the rest of the industry, it's the main way the industry improves

edit- one handed easy work off a ladder is allowed


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Wiresmith said:


> OSHA
> https://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=STANDARDS&p_id=10404
> "Fixed ladder" means a ladder including individual rung ladders, permanently attached to a structure, building or piece of equipment.
> 
> ...


Sorry, that section does not apply to portable ladders. There's even a white paper from OSHA that goes on to clarify that. They state:

_Portable ladders: fall protection is not required for employees climbing or working on portable ladders.
Neither the ladder standard (29 CFR 1926, subpart X) nor the fall protection standard (29 CFR 1926, subpart M) requires fall protection for workers while working on portable ladders._


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

MDShunk said:


> Sorry, that section does not apply to portable ladders. There's even a white paper from OSHA that goes on to clarify that. They state:
> 
> _Portable ladders: fall protection is not required for employees climbing or working on portable ladders.
> Neither the ladder standard (29 CFR 1926, subpart X) nor the fall protection standard (29 CFR 1926, subpart M) requires fall protection for workers while working on portable ladders._


i believe the white paper you are referring to, (i am looking for) says if you maintain three points of contact, which i agree with. but if your doing something with two hands(most of what we do) you have to be tied off.

1926.1053(a)

General. The following requirements apply to all ladders as indicated, including job-made ladders.


1926.1053(b)(22)

An employee shall not carry any object or load that could cause the employee to lose balance and fall.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Wiresmith said:


> i believe the white paper you are referring to, (i am looking for) says if you maintain three points of contact, which i agree with. but if your doing something with two hands(most of what we do) you have to be tied off.


Absolutely. I agree with that.


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

werner instructions for using the ladder

2.always face ladder and maintain firm grip while on it


1926.1053(b)(4)

Ladders shall be used only for the purpose for which they were designed.

i agree one handed easy work is allowed, but more often than not that's not the type of work done on a ladder which usually means fall protection is required.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Wiresmith said:


> werner instructions for using the ladder
> 
> 2.always face ladder and maintain firm grip while on it
> 
> ...


That's a lot of effort to say you agree with me.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Personal preference, I always liked Baker scaffold if not using a lift.


I have (2) that can be stacked and also have the (4) extra sets 
of wheels that stabilize the stacked set.

I use them for high light fixture installations


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

3 points of contact at all times on a ladder is a dumb rule. You can't actually do anything with only 3 points of contact except maybe set an anchor point for tie off, which I can practically guarantee I will never do off of a stepladder. 

I love scissor lifts, but man, you just can't squeeze them in everywhere and when you are bouncing around a machine shop or something the 12' stepladder just gets it done. 

Also, for the record, I am a qualified person since I have a card that says I sat through 30 hours of OSHA powerpoints.


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

MDShunk said:


> That's a lot of effort to say you agree with me.


i was taking what you were saying as you don't have to tie off when working on ladders, period. which i agree that with one handed easy work you don't have to, but often we are supposed to tie off when working on ladders when we go outside those parameters


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

i actually think the bigger safety problem with OP is i don't think he felt properly trained to safely do what he was told to do. he obviously hasn't been trained on the regulations around working off ladders so i think his concern was very valid, i wish i worked around more people that questioned things before accidents happened. firing someone for honestly questioning the safety of something is ridiculous.

also i'm not gonna look up the reference unless someone refutes me on it. but the basis of osha is employers are to protect employees from known hazards, the number one killer i think in construction is falls (a known hazard). i really think the contractor is in the wrong albeit i only hear one side of the story, so maybe not.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

lighterup said:


> I have (2) that can be stacked and also have the (4) extra sets
> of wheels that stabilize the stacked set.
> 
> I use them for high light fixture installations


I have used a Baker scaffold for anything where I needed 4' of height or more, they are just so handy for moving tools and parts around with you and if you get the 'shimmy move' down pat it's easy to move around without much hassle.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

Wiresmith said:


> i actually think the bigger safety problem with OP is i don't think he felt properly trained to safely do what he was told to do. he obviously hasn't been trained on the regulations around working off ladders so i think his concern was very valid, i wish i worked around more people that questioned things before accidents happened*. firing someone for honestly questioning the safety of something is ridiculous.*
> 
> also i'm not gonna look up the reference unless someone refutes me on it. but the basis of osha is employers are to protect employees from known hazards, the number one killer i think in construction is falls (a known hazard). i really think the contractor is in the wrong albeit i only hear one side of the story, so maybe not.


for sake of discussion we have to take it at face value OP was let go
cause of this. 

I too think it's ridiculous to tell someone "its just not working out"
because he had a fear of falling. The OP didn't take a job with The Iron Workers local....bajeebus...let the guy acclimate to heights.

what I'd like to know is if the employer made it clear to the OP at the
interview that he would be expected to work heights immediately upon 
hire....it's his first job...not as if he knew to ask...he's got no experience 
yet.


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