# Junction box grounding



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

swimmer said:


> I'm installing a new service panel in a different location from the old panel.
> The old panel has become a junction box.
> Original romex does not have ground.
> 
> ...


Run one egc to old junction box sized to 250.122 of the largest circuit in that box.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

I reraed your question. Ground your largest circuit of new romex to the can


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

swimmer said:


> I'm installing a new service panel in a different location from the old panel.
> The old panel has become a junction box.
> Original romex does not have ground.
> 
> ...


............

Just run a #6 between the new panel and the old one.:thumbsup:




> *250.4 General Requirements for Grounding and Bonding*
> 
> *(A) Grounded Systems.*
> 
> ...


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Harry the egc need to be with the circuit conductors. 300.3. If you ground the old panel with the largest egc from the new cables that is all that is necessary. I believe this is what Jerry was saying.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Harry the egc need to be with the circuit conductors. 300.3. If you ground the old panel with the largest egc from the new cables that is all that is necessary. I believe this is what Jerry was saying.


I know..

I was creating my post when Jerry's came in. ,I'm a slow poke...:laughing:


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## swimmer (Mar 19, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Harry the egc need to be with the circuit conductors. 300.3. If you ground the old panel with the largest egc from the new cables that is all that is necessary. I believe this is what Jerry was saying.



I'm going to ground with the largest EGC from the new cables but as long as we are citing code:
300.3(2) *Grounding and Bonding Conductors.* Equipment grounding conductors shall be permitted to be installed outside a raceway or cable assembly where in accordance with provisions of 250.130(C) for certain existing installations or in accordance with 350.134(B), Exception No. 2, for dc circuits. Equipment bonding conductors shall be permitted to be installed on the outside of raceways in accordance with 250.102(E)

Funny how they use "Equipment grounding conductors" and "Equipment bonding conductors" in the same paragraph. According to Mike Holt, these are the same thing.

http://www.mikeholt.com/reprint_request2000.php?id=4334


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## swimmer (Mar 19, 2011)

*(2) Grounding of Electrical Equipment.* Normally non–
current-carrying conductive materials enclosing electrical
conductors or equipment, or forming part of such equipment,
shall be connected to earth so as to limit the voltage
to ground on these materials.
*(3) Bonding of Electrical Equipment.* Normally non–
current-carrying conductive materials enclosing electrical
conductors or equipment, or forming part of such equipment,
shall be connected together and to the electrical supply
source in a manner that establishes an effective groundfault
current path.

I think I get it now.
Grounding is for voltage.
Bonding is for current.
The same parts serve both purposes


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

Just re route the original home runs to the new panel and eliminate the junction box/old panel. Unless in your situation is the 5% of the time where it's really the only option and not hacking. Because 95% of the time I see this it just seems lazy. Are panel boards listed for junction boxes? I'd scour the code book for reasons to fail it. Sorry just one guys opinion.


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## swimmer (Mar 19, 2011)

Bkessler said:


> Just re route the original home runs to the new panel and eliminate the junction box/old panel. Unless in your situation is the 5% of the time where it's really the only option and not hacking. Because 95% of the time I see this it just seems lazy. Are panel boards listed for junction boxes? I'd scour the code book for reasons to fail it. Sorry just one guys opinion.



This would mean that any service panel upgrade that requires moving the panel would also include complete rewiring of the original branches and feeders.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

swimmer said:


> This would mean that any service panel upgrade that requires moving the panel would also include complete rewiring of the original branches and feeders.


That's only if the customer wants all that done otherwise it is fine to use a J-Box.:thumbsup:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Bkessler said:


> Are panel boards listed for junction boxes?


No, panelboards cannot be listed as junction boxes because panelbaords are not enclosures.

To the NEC these are panelboards












> *Panelboard.* A single panel or group of panel units designed
> for assembly in the form of a single panel, including
> buses and automatic overcurrent devices, and equipped
> with or without switches for the control of light, heat, or
> ...


Panelboards go in cabinets and cabinets can do more than hold a panelboard. You can splice in them.





> I'd scour the code book for reasons to fail it. Sorry just one guys opinion.


Good luck with that. :thumbsup:


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

swimmer said:


> This would mean that any service panel upgrade that requires moving the panel would also include complete rewiring of the original branches and feeders.


Exactly, or... you add a new main panel and subfeed and replace the old panel. Ive done it 20 or 30 times and have never ever just made a jbox out of the old panel. I fear electricians hell and that I think is a sin. But that's just me.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

swimmer said:


> *(2) Grounding of Electrical Equipment.* Normally non–
> current-carrying conductive materials enclosing electrical
> conductors or equipment, or forming part of such equipment,
> shall be connected to earth so as to limit the voltage
> ...


Look in Article 100.



> *Bonded (Bonding)*. Connected to establish electrical continuity
> and conductivity.
> *
> Bonding Conductor or Jumper.* A reliable conductor to
> ...





> *Ground.* The earth.
> *
> Ground Fault.* An unintentional, electrically conducting
> connection between an ungrounded conductor of an electrical
> ...


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

BBQ said:


> Good luck with that. :thumbsup:


110-12 baby!

110-12c probably

110-2
110-3


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## 3xdad (Jan 25, 2011)

swimmer said:


> The old panel has become a junction box.


How did you accomplish this? Remove guts and call it that or replace with listed j-box?


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Bkessler said:


> 110-12


Not very specific but I am guessing you mean 'neat and workmanlike'?

Even the NFPA considers that as 'possibly unenforceable' and lets face it, that is lame code cite as it has nothing to do with electrical safety and everything about how something looks. 




> 110-2
> 110-3


No, don't think so, if so they would be in conflict with 312.8.



> *312.8 Switch and Overcurrent Device Enclosures with
> Splices, Taps, and Feed-Through Conductors. *The wiring
> space of enclosures for switches or overcurrent devices
> shall be permitted for conductors feeding through, spliced,
> ...


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

I never said I'd be a good inspector, but I most of the time I see this done the old panel is a rusty old piece of crap. And lets face it inspectors pass it all the time, most of the time there is a better way to do it. Surely you'll agree to that?


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

I'd also replace the existing panel with a splice can. Otherwise you are going to have breaker blanks, or leave the old cb's to fill up the holes ?


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