# Shop guys



## gnuuser (Jan 13, 2013)

being a shop guy may pose a problem if it violates seniority. 

when you are union and violate seniority the union can take punitive action such as forcing the management to pay the workers who were skipped over, they could also fine you, and in some cases drop you from the union.
this is a thing you must think out carefully!
many people will do that but usually have to drop out of the union.
and while you are an apprentice non union hours may not always be counted towards your journeyman status that is dependent on your states regulations.


however the choice is yours!


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

gnuuser said:


> being a shop guy may pose a problem if it violates seniority.
> 
> when you are union and violate seniority the union can take punitive action such as forcing the management to pay the workers who were skipped over, they could also fine you, and in some cases drop you from the union.
> this is a thing you must think out carefully!
> ...


You pay your union dues and are current right? Tell 360 to F off next time he grumbles at you once he gets laid off for slacking and the shop owner keeps you around. That is the problem with unions. They allow 360's.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Usually the shop guys just take a service truck.
I don't see what the problem is.

If you are a worm and always try to jump from job to job when guys are on the book, that's a character issue.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

I ****ing love the union. Gnuser is one of the reasons why. 
"no son don't work hard and make your contractor money, we have a bunch of slugs we need to keep employed. Don't you dare work thru u your break even though you are on a roll" SMH. Then they wonder why they are dying.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Switchgear277 said:


> I’ve been with the same union shop for two years know and some guys have noticed that they have been layed off and I’ve stayed . I was pulled with a shop ticket so I’m able to move from job to job :
> 
> It’s a small shop so the jobs only last a month or so . The owner likes me and asked me if I want to be a shop guy and he can keep me busy as little me as I want to stay .
> 
> ...


Sorry, I just picked up on the fact you are an apprentice.
Our apprentices answer to the apprentiship director. They need to make sure you get a well rounded exposure to different types of work.
I believe you can get a very good education working for a small shop, especially if you are working with the owner.
Don't worry about what people think. Where you are sent is not up to you and, you can't quit.


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## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

Our local would rotate you after a year. When school starts the apprenticeship director looks over the apprentice reports and sees who has been with who longer than a year. He'll walk into class one night and make the switch amungst the apprentices. The two apprentices that are switching will trade information. When on the job they'll fill out their new hire paperwork. 

As a journeyman you'll have to deal with being a shop rat, hall trash and everything in between. 

Other than Canada, there is no seniority in construction locals. Your only as good as your last day. Save up those good days and hopefully they'll get you past the "oh sh*t days". 

Work hard and smart, help others, keep your nose clean, don't trash others to make yourself look better, and let the chips fall where the lay.


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## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

sbrn33 said:


> I ****ing love the union. Gnuser is one of the reasons why.
> "no son don't work hard and make your contractor money, we have a bunch of slugs we need to keep employed. Don't you dare work thru u your break even though you are on a roll" SMH. Then they wonder why they are dying.


I don't think Gnuser worked for a construction local so you might be a little off base.


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## Switchgear277 (Mar 18, 2017)

sbrn33 said:


> I ****ing love the union. Gnuser is one of the reasons why.
> "no son don't work hard and make your contractor money, we have a bunch of slugs we need to keep employed. Don't you dare work thru u your break even though you are on a roll" SMH. Then they wonder why they are dying.


Labor unions are actually making a comeback our local gets hundreds of applications every year and only lets in 20 or so apprentices . Our books are cleared .

The way the country is going the middle class is taking a hit pensions are becoming less and less wages are droping jobs are being sent out over seas and the rich get richer 
Of the backs of the middle class .

Thank god for unions to fight for fair wage pensions and annuity ,
Give us and our family’s a future .

Ppl are realizing the power in solidarity and what collective bargaining can do if we all stand together and fight for a better way of life instead of fighting against each other . Labor unions are getting stronger and I see a bright future


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

Should be the apprenticeship's decision. In my local apprentices technically don't have a right to quit. People will always hate when you're a better worker than them. We need good workers to sell the benefits to contractors of using organized workers.

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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Switchgear277 said:


> Labor unions are actually making a comeback our local gets hundreds of applications every year and only lets in 20 or so apprentices . Our books are cleared .
> 
> The way the country is going the middle class is taking a hit pensions are becoming less and less wages are droping jobs are being sent out over seas and the rich get richer
> Of the backs of the middle class .
> ...


The IBEW has a knife on its own throat. Why, you ask? Because the IBEW supports the Democratic party which is instrumental in hollowing out the middle class with its policies. I fail to see why many IBEW members can't see this.


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

MTW said:


> The IBEW has a knife on its own throat. Why, you ask? Because the IBEW supports the Democratic party which is instrumental in hollowing out the middle class with its policies. I fail to see why many IBEW members can't see this.


This is the 2nd time I've seen you mention this. The only political alternative would be a worker's party that truly represents working people issues. More than likely it would be further left than the current democratic party which is right of center economically.

Republicans generally push policies that benefit (big) business owners. They loved immigration so long as the immigrants weren't guaranteed equal rights and protections. Now that there will be less of them they are working hard to suppress and repeal rights and protections of American employees.

The gaslight being, American workers shouldn't be too greedy or else they will see an increase in automation or more shipping of jobs to other countries.

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## gnuuser (Jan 13, 2013)

macmikeman said:


> You pay your union dues and are current right? Tell 360 to F off next time he grumbles at you once he gets laid off for slacking and the shop owner keeps you around. That is the problem with unions. They allow 360's.



not always some unions like ours was was very strict and you did your job or they got rid of you quickly!
they did protect us from shady management practices and protected our wage and pension. 



In my last year I was unable to do a lot of the heavy work due to health issues But our management knew this and assigned me to training and administrative duties.

(and got a lot more overtime as well):vs_laugh:



but i cannot speak for all unions because many are different and indeed some are corrupt!


*all i can say is If you have decent and honest management then you don't need a union*


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## gnuuser (Jan 13, 2013)

cabletie said:


> I don't think Gnuser worked for a construction local so you might be a little off base.



Exactly were industrial and employed in excess of 600 people when I first started.
contracting is a different environment and different rules apply.
a contracting business doesn't have room for slackers. and yes can get rid of them for failure to work up to performance standards.


what we had issues with was favoritism (laying off workers and sneaking in a few Family members of the managers regardless of their lower seniority
and generally in the higher paying positions for which they were not qualified to work at)


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

MTW said:


> Switchgear277 said:
> 
> 
> > Labor unions are actually making a comeback our local gets hundreds of applications every year and only lets in 20 or so apprentices . Our books are cleared .
> ...


....because the republicans are for ‘right to work states’ , which only benefits and empowers the employer. Most major corporations no longer offer pensions. 

Look at the major changes the Republican Party has made since controlling both houses in Congress and the White House, historical corporate tax deduction, capital gains tax changes.


History has shown us that Trickle Down Economics is a myth and does not work, yet that’s exactly what’s being pursued by Trump and the 1%.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

MTW said:


> The IBEW has a knife on its own throat. Why, you ask? Because the IBEW supports the Democratic party which is instrumental in hollowing out the middle class with its policies. I fail to see why many IBEW members can't see this.


The IBEW supports those that are labor friendly. When will the GOP come get our votes? 
They are too busy working against us. A vote for " them" is a vote against blue collar workers.

Their entire platform is abortion and Hillary. 

The four horsemen of nothing done are:
Russia
North Korea
China
Iran

Free speech is now on the chopping block


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

TGGT said:


> This is the 2nd time I've seen you mention this. The only political alternative would be a worker's party that truly represents working people issues. More than likely it would be further left than the current democratic party which is right of center economically.
> 
> Republicans generally push policies that benefit (big) business owners. They loved immigration so long as the immigrants weren't guaranteed equal rights and protections. Now that there will be less of them they are working hard to suppress and repeal rights and protections of American employees.
> 
> The gaslight being, American workers shouldn't be too greedy or else they will see an increase in automation or more shipping of jobs to other countries.


For the record, I never said the IBEW should support the Republican party. Far from it, actually. I'm simply incredulous that the IBEW leadership cannot see how dangerous the Democratic party is to their own interests. If anything, the IBEW should be for the free market, but clearly they are not. 

As for a "worker's party", that's the Bernie crowd. If you think the mainstream Democrats are bad, he's a million times worse.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

360max said:


> ....because the republicans are for ‘right to work states’ , which only benefits and empowers the employer. Most major corporations no longer offer pensions.
> 
> Look at the major changes the Republican Party has made since controlling both houses in Congress and the White House, historical corporate tax deduction, capital gains tax changes.
> 
> ...


You're a typical liberal drone with no capacity for independent thought.
Corporate taxes and capital gains should be slashed to nothing. You think that's a problem somehow? :laughing:

Let me ask you one question, which I know you will not answer. Are you employed by poor people, or rich people?


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Southeast Power said:


> The IBEW supports those that are labor friendly. When will the GOP come get our votes?
> They are too busy working against us. A vote for " them" is a vote against blue collar workers.


The Democratic party is working against you as well. You just aren't able to perceive it because you're under the same delusion.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

MTW said:


> 360max said:
> 
> 
> > ....because the republicans are for ‘right to work states’ , which only benefits and empowers the employer. Most major corporations no longer offer pensions.
> ...


....I’m employed by rich people, no debate. 

Now , answer my question, how come there is such disparity with regard to working wages AND benefits AND pensions between union electricians and non union electricians?? And I do realize some non union electricians may have it better than union electricians, but my question references the large majority, not the excepted few.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

360max said:


> ....I’m employed by rich people, no debate.


So why do you hate rich people so much? If you got your way and taxed the rich out of existence, you would be unemployed right now. 



> Now , answer my question, how come there is such disparity with regard to working wages AND benefits AND pensions between union electricians and non union electricians?? And I do realize some non union electricians may have it better than union electricians, but my question references the large majority, not the excepted few.


I would guess because the union negotiates that pay and benefit package.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

My top employees have been with me for years, apprentices that pass through my shop ask to return after topping out, we seldom have employees leave and knowledge wise these are some of the top members of our local and why because we work together, we take care of them and they work hard for us.

If you can get with a good shop, stay with them, work hard for them and hopefully they will take care of you.

And those naysayers that call you a shop guy are typically slackers that are not anything to be concerned with.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

MTW said:


> So why do you hate rich people so much? If you got your way and taxed the rich out of existence, you would be unemployed right now.
> 
> 
> 
> I would guess because the union negotiates that pay and benefit package.


Hey,
I have a great idea. Take your time and print out all of your anti-union comments, roll them up into little corn cobs and wipe your butt with them.
You should stay out of this sub if you are going to be an ignorant jackass.

Its a commitment on both sides to work and hire union labor.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Southeast Power said:


> Hey,
> I have a great idea. Take your time and print out all of your anti-union comments, roll them up into little corn cobs and wipe your butt with them.
> You should stay out of this sub if you are going to be an ignorant jackass.
> 
> Its a commitment on both sides to work and hire union labor.


Do you have anything in the way of facts or statistics to offer in the way of a rebuttal? It seems you don't like inconvenient truths being pointed out to you.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

Switchgear277 said:


> I’ve been with the same union shop for two years know and some guys have noticed that they have been layed off and I’ve stayed . I was pulled with a shop ticket so I’m able to move from job to job :
> 
> It’s a small shop so the jobs only last a month or so . The owner likes me and asked me if I want to be a shop guy and he can keep me busy as little me as I want to stay .
> 
> ...


Im opposed to an apprentice staying with a smaller contractor throughout their apprenticeship because it limits their experiences.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

MTW said:


> 360max said:
> 
> 
> > ....I’m employed by rich people, no debate.
> ...


I don’t hate rich people, but when laws are passed which are designed solely to make them richer, while taking from the working ‘Joe’, is where I draw the line. Pensions are a thing of the past with most large corporations, why?

As for the union negotiating my pay/benefits your correct. Solidarity is a strong reminder that working people want to be treated fairly, receive livable wages, have decent health benefits for their family, not have to worry about retirement after working for 40+ years.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

360, it would be interesting to see your work history. I will show you mine if you show me yours.


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## B-Nabs (Jun 4, 2014)

MTW said:


> So why do you hate rich people so much? If you got your way and taxed the rich out of existence, you would be unemployed right now.
> 
> 
> 
> I would guess because the union negotiates that pay and benefit package.


Nobody is taking about taxing the rich out of existence, just about them paying their fair share. Wealth disparity is at an all time high and rising. 

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## Switchgear277 (Mar 18, 2017)

B-Nabs said:


> MTW said:
> 
> 
> > So why do you hate rich people so much? If you got your way and taxed the rich out of existence, you would be unemployed right now.
> ...


The rich are important Bc they build buildings and add jobs etc 

But what has been shown over history that without unions the rush will exploit their workers and not pay fair wages pensions benefits etc 

Unions came about so that the rish don’t exploit and run space shops 

And unfortunately the middle class in this day of age is taking a beating
More and more jobs are taking away pensions healthcare etc

Thank god that the ibew is strong in a lot of areas it gives me hope for my family’s future


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

360max said:


> I don’t hate rich people, but when laws are passed which are designed solely to make them richer, while taking from the working ‘Joe’, is where I draw the line. Pensions are a thing of the past with most large corporations, why?


You believe in class warfare. Tell me exactly how the rich are taking from the "working Joe". Give specific examples. 



> As for the union negotiating my pay/benefits your correct. Solidarity is a strong reminder that working people want to be treated fairly, receive livable wages, have decent health benefits for their family, not have to worry about retirement after working for 40+ years.



Those with high aptitudes don't need a union to obtain those things. In fact, the union is actually detrimental to those people.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

B-Nabs said:


> Nobody is taking about taxing the rich out of existence, just about them paying their fair share. Wealth disparity is at an all time high and rising.


I ask this question all the time and I never get a straight answer. So I'll ask it again - what is their fair share as a percentage? Don't give a bunch of mumbo jumbo - I want to know exactly what you think their "fair share" is.

As for wealth inequality, it's a direct result of the corrupt central banking and fiat monetary system that benefits the government and well connected corporations on the government pig trough that is causing the vast majority of wealth inequality. Why do so few on the left seem to understand this?


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Southeast Power said:


> Hey,
> I have a great idea. Take your time and print out all of your anti-union comments, roll them up into little corn cobs and wipe your butt with them.
> You should stay out of this sub if you are going to be an ignorant jackass.


I was thinking about this today and realized this must be that liberal hypocrisy again. So it's ok for you to constantly bash conservatives and Trump supporters under this and your "NewElect85" name and stick your negative views of consevativism everywhere, but I can't voice my opinion on unions. I'll make sure I get your permission to post in the future. 




> Its a commitment on both sides to work and hire union labor.


I couldn't possibly care less.


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## Switchgear277 (Mar 18, 2017)

MTW said:


> Southeast Power said:
> 
> 
> > Hey,
> ...


Ppl that don’t care for unions are either pri business owners that want
Total controll of their business so they can pay their employees what ever wage they want with no contract .

Or rich corporate types other than that you have to be stupid not to respect what unions have done for the working class .

Ot, vacation pay , pensions , retirement , safe wrking conditions, The Weeknd the list goes on and on .
Next time one of your family members enjoyes One of these listed above ,make shure to thank the unions they only faught with blood to give us the rights that guys like you take for granted .


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## trentonmakes (Mar 21, 2017)

Do you have a pen?

Lol

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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

Switchgear277 said:


> Ppl that don’t care for unions are either pri business owners that want
> Total controll of their business so they can pay their employees what ever wage they want with no contract .
> 
> Or rich corporate types other than that you have to be stupid not to respect what unions have done for the working class .
> ...


So unions are about equal rights and workers rights.

From what i have seen old union guys are willing to allow contracts to be changed for the new guys being hired. 
There pensions and health insurance will never be the same as the guys who started back in the 70's. Most of them will never catch up to the wages of the older guys (balanced against inflation). So you will end up in years to come with 2 people working together on different wage rates and benefits. 

Now i can understand the argument that back in the 80's everyone was getting raises well above inflation and no one really understood that people would live longer but at the end of the day the youngsters are going to be paying there union fees to support the older guys rather than saving towards there own retirement. 

Now i see why this has to happen. I dont blame the older union guys as that was the contract on the table but please dont act all noble about it. 

Your just like any other business when it comes to screwing people the only difference is the moneys not going into a rich persons pocket its going in to a well of middle class retired electricians pocket (payed for by the not so middle class next generation of union electricains) 

I was union in the UK and i planned to be union over here until i went to a meeting and they started on about the brotherhood. Hell i thought i was at the bloody Amway meeting.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Switchgear277 said:


> Ppl that don’t care for unions are either pri business owners that want
> Total controll of their business so they can pay their employees what ever wage they want with no contract .


Yes, exactly. That's called "at will employment". 



> Or rich corporate types


There's that class warfare again. Does the IBEW indoctrinate all its members to despise "rich corporate types"? Seems like a common theme. 



> other than that you have to be stupid not to respect what unions have done for the working class .


They're a great temporary labor force if you need to man a larger project quickly. 




> Ot, vacation pay , pensions , retirement , safe wrking conditions, The Weeknd the list goes on and on .
> Next time one of your family members enjoyes One of these listed above ,make shure to thank the unions they only faught with blood to give us the rights that guys like you take for granted .


I thank them at least 100 times a day, sometimes more. Some days I slack off and only thank them 80 times.


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## gnuuser (Jan 13, 2013)

most of that comes about due to the numerous variations in unions.
There is very little in the way of set standards that unions and corporate entities must by law comply with.
add in the concept of some union competitions and it opens a whole other can of worms.


one example i can site is one local trying to get stable insurance coverages for all employees and another local (comprised of younger generation ) voting down the better insurance in favor of larger pay raises.


sadly the younger generation does not see the need for the better coverage,
and the older generation and workers with family's take a major @$$ rape!
but what do the younger ones care they get more beer money!


part of it comes from lack of communication between locals!
and the rest of it comes from lack of education and common sense.


many of you guys have no idea how lucky you are to have a strong local.


and on another note as a retired worker i have this to say!
try to live on a limited income and have to deal with medical bills, make up your mind real quick about what you have to give up in order to survive let alone try to live comfortably.


quite simply if I didn't have medical issues i could indeed live easily on my pension

401k Ive seen 3 fail and lost everything:vs_mad:and of course the gov. bailed them out but not me!


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## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

gpop said:


> So unions are about equal rights and workers rights.
> 
> From what i have seen old union guys are willing to allow contracts to be changed for the new guys being hired.
> There pensions and health insurance will never be the same as the guys who started back in the 70's. Most of them will never catch up to the wages of the older guys (balanced against inflation). So you will end up in years to come with 2 people working together on different wage rates and benefits.
> ...



I have no idea what local you are referring to. The IBEW covers many different types of work from camera men and secretary's to tree trimmers and ditch diggers. But everything you mentioned in your post is very foreign to me. I'm not saying you didn't see it or feel it, but to me it's just perpetuating rumors. 
I've heard quite a few before I got in. 

In our local young and old live by the same contract, same benefits and pay. A pension credit is a pension credit. When we get a raise it's divided by percentage into health and welfare, pension and annuity. It used to go to a vote every time, but at one point they just voted on a percentage. It's easier this way. Unless one plan needs a tweak, there's nothing to vote on. 

As far as keeping up with 1970's pay, every one of has taken a huge hit. Wake up blue people! Look at the ratios of income to housing or incomes to college tuition between then and now. 

At least I can still buy album for $9.99. Somethings never change. At $3.35 an hour that was still a lot of money. I would buy my vinyl used. Depending on the scratches, I could get three for $9.00.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

cabletie said:


> As far as keeping up with 1970's pay, every one of has taken a huge hit. Wake up blue people! Look at the ratios of income to housing or incomes to college tuition between then and now.


Do you know why that's the case?


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## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

MTW said:


> Do you know why that's the case?


Realtors and Deans. We need to run them into the ocean like St Patrick did with the snakes. Actually Wall Street probably had some to do with housing.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

MTW said:


> Do you know why that's the case?


Why are you still posting here? 
Why don't you go away and let us brothers have a conversation?
This is really none of your business. :wink:


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## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

Wait, you'll probably turn it into Union greed.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Southeast Power said:


> Why are you still posting here?
> Why don't you go away and let us brothers have a conversation?
> This is really none of your business. :wink:


There you are with that liberal hypocrisy and delusion once again. It may very well be incurable with you.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

MTW said:


> The Democratic party is working against you as well. You just aren't able to perceive it because you're under the same delusion.


I have the same opinion of you. 
You come off as a self hating blue collar worker.
It's beyond logic any working person would embrace any GOP platform that is rock solid anti labor and anti blue color worker.
People like you want to believe if you praise the Mazza, the crumbs that fall from his table will be better near his feet while you are rubbing them.

I don't evade taxes like your political heroes and pay 30k per year in income tax and well over 100k per year in fringe benefits our union employees earn.
If people like you keep up the hate of working people, we will never get back to the wage raises we had when we all had a loud collective voice.

People like you have zero credibility in the world I know. So, this Labor Day, have a good time with your buddies. I'll be having a toast to those who defended our way of life from people just like you.:vs_cool:


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

That's a great speech there "NewElect85" but it all falls to the ground because I don't support the GOP or the Republican party. 

As for what you pay in taxes and benefits, I don't even remotely care. Is there a point to your grandstanding? 

You still fail to understand what is causing wages to stagnate because you're trapped in the liberal mindset. You're not even remotely close to identifying the actual causes of it.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

MTW said:


> That's a great speech there "NewElect85" but it all falls to the ground because I don't support the GOP or the Republican party.
> 
> As for what you pay in taxes and benefits, I don't even remotely care. Is there a point to your grandstanding?
> 
> You still fail to understand what is causing wages to stagnate because you're trapped in the liberal mindset. You're not even remotely close to identifying the actual causes of it.


You are an embarrassment to our trade. 
You are hung up on the term liberal as some kind of discredit to others like any one give a shlt about your name calling.
Why dont you get and education and get a life and not stick your nose in subjects where your ignorance is as welcome as a turd in a punchbowl.
Have a good life.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Southeast Power said:


> You are an embarrassment to our trade.
> You are hung up on the term liberal as some kind of discredit to others like any one give a shlt about your name calling.
> Why dont you get and education and get a life and not stick your nose in subjects where your ignorance is as welcome as a turd in a punchbowl.
> Have a good life.


News flash - it's an open forum and I can comment on whatever subject I like. Anyway, you're always welcome to go to an IBEW forum. There are plenty out there. You'll be right at home.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Southeast Power said:


> I don't evade taxes like your political heroes and pay 30k per year in income tax and well over 100k per year in fringe benefits our union employees earn.


So that 100K is just pure benevolence, right? :no: You're contractually obligated to pay those benefits and the customer pays for it all with your hourly rate. But we're supposed to believe that you just gave it all away from your own personal stash, right?


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

gnuuser said:


> macmikeman said:
> 
> 
> > You pay your union dues and are current right? Tell 360 to F off next time he grumbles at you once he gets laid off for slacking and the shop owner keeps you around. That is the problem with unions. They allow 360's.
> ...


....decent and honest management is real real tough to come by these days. If they are truly management, their goal is to make and keep as much profit as possible. The problem is that their bonuses are often attached to these margins, often short cutting and under manning jobs. 

Who the hell wants to go to work ever day and run around like a chicken with its head cut off so Big John can get that fat bonus? I’m not stating don’t work hard , but there’s a big difference between working hard and that chicken. 

8 for 8 is the motto, and do a professional job you can be proud of when you walk away.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

360max said:


> ....decent and honest management is real real tough to come by these days. If they are truly management, their goal is to make and keep as much profit as possible. The problem is that their bonuses are often attached to these margins, often short cutting and under manning jobs.
> 
> Who the hell wants to go to work ever day and run around like a chicken with its head cut off so Big John can get that fat bonus? I’m not stating don’t work hard , but there’s a big difference between working hard and that chicken.
> 
> 8 for 8 is the motto, and do a professional job you can be proud of when you walk away.


So basically it's ok to screw the dog if you feel you have the right to depending on "working conditions". And people wonder why unions are dying or being busted up.


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## bill39 (Sep 4, 2009)

To the OP, there are different skill sets required to be a shoppie vs a “big job”electrician. If you want be a well rounded electrician then you need to learn both.

Both places have their pros and cons. 

Are you sure these guys aren’t just busting your chops a little?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

360max said:


> Im opposed to an apprentice staying with a smaller contractor throughout their apprenticeship because it limits their experiences.


While I agree 100% seems some locals are going that route, no transfers.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

B-Nabs said:


> Nobody is taking about taxing the rich out of existence, just about them paying their fair share. *Wealth is at an all time high and rising. *
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


Fixed it for you.

Once again with their fair share, THE WEALTHY PAY THE LARGEST PERCENTAGE OF TAXES, read the other post on this.

Once again rough numbers

someone that earns 100,000 a year pays 28,000.00 federal

someone that earns 1,000,000 a year pays 369,000.00 federal.

Seems they are paying more than their fair share.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Switchgear277 said:


> Ppl that don’t care for unions are either pri business owners that want
> Total control of their business so they can pay their employees whatever wage they want with no contract.
> 
> Or rich corporate types other than that you have to be stupid not to respect what unions have done for the working class.
> ...



In the 60's, 70's and early 80's union men in my area on a mixed job, union, and open shop would harass, f*ck with the open shopmen, damage their work, refuse to let them use elevators and address them as scabs and worse. When you tried and join the union you would be told no place for you, your not good enough or you have no family members and you are not a minority, get lost.

So there is a reason beyond what you have seen or believe.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

MTW said:


> News flash - it's an open forum and I can comment on whatever subject I like. Anyway, you're always welcome to go to an IBEW forum. There are plenty out there. You'll be right at home.


This may be an open forum, but it doesn't mean you aren't a douche for sh*tting on every union thread that pops up. Thos thread was started by someone with a legit question and did not need to end up as a union/anti-union sh*tshow.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Going_Commando said:


> This may be an open forum, but it doesn't mean you aren't a douche for sh*tting on every union thread that pops up. Thos thread was started by someone with a legit question and did not need to end up as a union/anti-union sh*tshow.


Sorry mom, I'll make sure I check with you as well next time.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

brian john said:


> In the 60's, 70's and early 80's union men in my area on a mixed job, union, and open shop would harass, f*ck with the open shopmen, damage their work, refuse to let them use elevators and address them as scabs and worse. When you tried and join the union you would be told no place for you, your not good enough or you have no family members and you are not a minority, get lost.
> 
> So there is a reason beyond what you have seen or believe.


That was very much the case here as well, only it extended well into the 2000's. Then they changed their tune once the "inversion" started taking place - more retirees starting to collect their pensions than new apprentices filling the ranks. Suddenly they began welcoming non-union electricians with open arms and became the kinder, gentler IBEW. As far as I'm concerned, it's far too little, far too late.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Going_Commando said:


> This may be an open forum, but it doesn't mean you aren't a douche for sh*tting on every union thread that pops up. Thos thread was started by someone with a legit question and did not need to end up as a union/anti-union sh*tshow.


If you have been sh*t upon by a large group that calls it's self BROTHERS all working in the trades can you not see how some people can be bitter and resent the union?


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## bostonPedro (Nov 14, 2017)

Looks like your thread has been hijacked so to answer the original OP question. 
My feeling is that a small shop is a very good thing to apprentice up the end of your 3rd year. You will get exposed to different aspects and work hands on and imo that is all one can ask because that is how you become a better electrician. 
As an apprentice you really just want to be well rounded so to speak and to see and work on various parts of our industry. No one with any sense expects an apprentice to be comparable to a JW so learn.
By staying at small shops early you also avoided the stock boy years of year 1 and parts of year 2 if the shop is big like the one I work at. We may have some good conduit bending apprentices maybe 3-5 but now they lack any knowledge of anything else. The other apprentices bounce around from task to task because the business has changed and to be truthful you just aren't partnered up with a JW like the past who would teach you things and show you tricks.
Larger shops have more variety in what they do so from 4th year on you can learn more about our industry but you have to also be with the right JW also and a GF and foreman who "get it" ie they need to see the big picture and not just see ONE job. I was brought along as an apprentice step by step and worked with mostly older guys who would tell the foreman "back off" I am teaching "the kid" and they will never know it but I am grateful that they took the time and went to battle on my behalf. In the end being exposed to many things and having people show me things made me a better electrician and in turn the contractor reaped that reward and although that company went out of business after being around for almost 70 years the contractors I have worked for after have benefited from my rock solid apprenticeship that was the foundation I built my career on. 
Look at your apprenticeship as your building blocks to a foundation and though hard, giving a crap, not being afraid to ask questions, taking IBEW classes and just talking to guys who know their stuff you can have a good career which is built on that foundation


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## gnuuser (Jan 13, 2013)

bostonPedro said:


> but you have to also be with the right JW also and a GF and foreman who "get it" ie they need to see the big picture and not just see ONE job. I was brought along as an apprentice step by step and worked with mostly older guys who would tell the foreman "back off" I am teaching "the kid"



dead on the money here!


we had our fair share of gf and production management who decided they are the top dog and could barely manage to turn food into $#1t or masturbate without video instruction
most of them always interfered more than the should have.


there are a lot of people who feel they have been burned by unions, and Im not saying all unions are perfect Heck there has been history of unions pulling shady things but the history of many corporations have done a lot worse.
quite a few of them will hire managers and legal teams that specialize in breaking unions up and will cause strife any way they can!


the thing is a union is what its members make it. *If your members make it a good union (one that benefits both its members and corporate) then there is no problem!*

*and yes there are such critters out there!:vs_laugh:*


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

Im so glad i skipped most of this stuff and just went industrial. 

At 16 years old with 2 years of electronics education i had more of a basic understanding of electrical then it seems most people are getting in 4 years of a apprenticeship. 

I was under the impression that all union guys had some formal training in every aspect of the craft. I never thought that some guys have never worked on controls and from reading post on here it seems that some guys may have no experience with a live electrical circuit. There's a art to running conduit but its hardly training if you are doing it for 2-3 years. 

In industrial you are payed for what you know. I might bust arse a few days a month but it sounds like you guys are busting it every day. 

This isn't a bitch at the union or a put down i just presumed that as a apprentice they sent you to classes on electrical and code rather than picking it up as you go.


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## bostonPedro (Nov 14, 2017)

gpop said:


> Im so glad i skipped most of this stuff and just went industrial.
> 
> At 16 years old with 2 years of electronics education i had more of a basic understanding of electrical then it seems most people are getting in 4 years of a apprenticeship.
> 
> ...



You do get formal training in almost every aspect of the electrical industry but remember there is knowledge on a subject ie from a book or lab and then there is applied knowledge ie actually doing it in the field which is far more important imo.


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## Switchgear277 (Mar 18, 2017)

I have to complet 5 years of schooling in order to become a jman 

I’m 2nd year apprentice in sep 
Each year is dedicated for you to learn specific parts of the trade , therory conduit bending , controls etc .

But doing it in class room and in feild is totally diff . 

I had about five years exp non union befor geting into the local . I was at the point we’re i was on alot of nice industrial and big commercial jobs 
Doing lots of pipe bending trough installs mounting panels etc 

Doing generators more of skilled work . I had a chance to get into the union so I took it . I got pulled into a small shop we’re its just me a jw and the owner the shop mostly does very small office fit outs etc . The owner has kept me for two years and asked if I want to stay with him he can keep me busy .

The pro is that he does wrk near my house Bc the territory is hudge and some jobs are far .

I gues my only worries are that I’m not going to get a lot of the exposure doing diff aspects of the trade and not evolve and loose the skill sets that I worked hard on to learn to this point . And continue to learn diff things aswell. 

But also even tho I have 5 years exp I’m still an apprentice in the union so I could be just doing manual labor or handing material on these bigger jobs like others have stated .

Theirs pros and cons to every situation your in .

Thank you for all the helpful replies


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## Smid (Jul 9, 2014)

Going to hijack here, 
I’ve been with the same shop for 4 years (my whole apprenticeship, starting 5th year now). We’re not tiny, but not big by any means. I’ve gotten a decent variety of experience but I’ve lately been questioning if I want to try another company. They’ve been pretty good to me and I do more than I should on some things but as of lately I feel taken advantage of. Service calls in my personal car and dealing with customers because they feel some of our newly JW’s are competent to do, which leaves me feeling like I’m doing the extra work for no extra reward.... but there’s no guarantee where I’ll go if I leave and I do like he security of knowing what I’m in


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## Chops146 (Aug 26, 2018)

Long story short, you are an apprentice, you go where you're told. Once you top out, if you take a shop call and follow the contract, you are fine.


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

Chops146 said:


> Long story short, you are an apprentice, you go where you're told. Once you top out, if you take a shop call and follow the contract, you are fine.


Service calls in personal vehicle is against the contract.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## Smid (Jul 9, 2014)

TGGT said:


> Service calls in personal vehicle is against the contract.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


Not according to the Hall as long as I’m getting mileage from site to site


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

Smid said:


> TGGT said:
> 
> 
> > Service calls in personal vehicle is against the contract.
> ...


so if I owned a backhoe, could I drive that to work and dig the trenches for my contractor free, as long as they pay me mileage?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

360max said:


> so if I owned a backhoe, could I drive that to work and dig the trenches for my contractor free, as long as they pay me mileage?


Instead of posting hyperbole and ignorance, why not actually read your own agreement?


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

Smid said:


> Not according to the Hall as long as I’m getting mileage from site to site


Mileage and vehicle maintenance, payment, insurance? Is this written in your contract? Do you risk discipline or discharge if you refuse?

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

HackWork said:


> 360max said:
> 
> 
> > so if I owned a backhoe, could I drive that to work and dig the trenches for my contractor free, as long as they pay me mileage?
> ...


 ....I know what’s in my agreement, seems he’s having an issue with his knowledge of his, but thanks for your input, it’s appreciated.


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

gpop said:


> So unions are about equal rights and workers rights.
> 
> From what i have seen old union guys are willing to allow contracts to be changed for the new guys being hired.
> There pensions and health insurance will never be the same as the guys who started back in the 70's. Most of them will never catch up to the wages of the older guys (balanced against inflation). So you will end up in years to come with 2 people working together on different wage rates and benefits.
> ...


your dead on with my experience in the union. it drives me crazy, the union screws there own guys(new or not in yet) more than the contractors do. and then tells them they should say thank you. brotherhood alright


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## Smid (Jul 9, 2014)

360max said:


> so if I owned a backhoe, could I drive that to work and dig the trenches for my contractor free, as long as they pay me mileage?


You’re making the point to the wrong person here. I called the hall because I didn’t agree that I should be doing a service call in my personal vehicle but that’s the response I got. Put up with it or take a layoff essentially



TGGT said:


> Mileage and vehicle maintenance, payment, insurance? Is this written in your contract? Do you risk discipline or discharge if you refuse?
> 
> Edit didn’t see your second comment.
> Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


Mileage at .55 a mile is written into our contract and we can voluntarily carry 50 pounds of material. You can refuse but you risk “a one man layoff” is exactly what was explained to me at the Hall


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

So if a guy has a truck and can load up 4” rigid , and I get laid off because I have a car, I’d be beyond upset. That’s non union stuff right there, and that’s being nice about it.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

360max said:


> So if a guy has a truck and can load up 4” rigid , and I get laid off because I have a car, I’d be beyond upset. That’s non union stuff right there, and that’s being nice about it.


Instead of posting hyperbole and ignorance, why not actually read your own agreement?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

TGGT said:


> Mileage and vehicle maintenance, payment, insurance? Is this written in your contract? Do you risk discipline or discharge if you refuse?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


The IRS rate of 54.5 cents per mile for 2018 covers everything. Depreciation, maintenance, insurance, etc.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

HackWork said:


> The IRS rate of 54.5 cents per mile for 2018 covers everything. Depreciation, maintenance, insurance, etc.


If you drive a high mileage vehicle and they run you around a lot you can make nice tax free money with mileage reimbursements. 

I had a really high mileage Honda that got 37.5 mpg and my job sent me to five regional locations, think about it, you can easily get paid for $50 a day, that covers way more than gas! It's an expense reimbursement so it's tax free. 
They don't bump your insurance rates. With a high mileage car your depreciation isn't jack. If you get even $100 a week, they are pretty much buying you a car


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

splatz said:


> If you drive a high mileage vehicle and they run you around a lot you can make nice tax free money with mileage reimbursements.
> 
> I had a really high mileage Honda that got 37.5 mpg and my job sent me to five regional locations, think about it, you can easily get paid for $50 a day, that covers way more than gas! It's an expense reimbursement so it's tax free.
> They don't bump your insurance rates. With a high mileage car your depreciation isn't jack. If you get even $100 a week, they are pretty much buying you a car


Yup. Plus, in my experience, I liked using my own vehicle. 

I used my truck on jobsites because it made my job easier and the day more comfortable. When I had shop stewards say that I can't use it, I told them to read the agreement just like I am telling 360max here. Of course they never actually read it, but the BA put them in their place.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

ALWAYS look out for them taking advantage of you, 

BUT don't let it interfere with you taking advantage of them! 



HackWork said:


> Yup. Plus, in my experience, I liked using my own vehicle.
> 
> I used my truck on jobsites because it made my job easier and the day more comfortable. When I had shop stewards say that I can't use it, I told them to read the agreement just like I am telling 360max here. Of course they never actually read it, but the BA put them in their place.


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## Smid (Jul 9, 2014)

splatz said:


> If you drive a high mileage vehicle and they run you around a lot you can make nice tax free money with mileage reimbursements.
> 
> I had a really high mileage Honda that got 37.5 mpg and my job sent me to five regional locations, think about it, you can easily get paid for $50 a day, that covers way more than gas! It's an expense reimbursement so it's tax free.
> They don't bump your insurance rates. With a high mileage car your depreciation isn't jack. If you get even $100 a week, they are pretty much buying you a car


That’s sweet if you want to drive a jalopy but I don’t, which is the problem with doing service work out of it.


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## gnuuser (Jan 13, 2013)

Wiresmith said:


> your dead on with my experience in the union. it drives me crazy, the union screws there own guys(new or not in yet) more than the contractors do. and then tells them they should say thank you. brotherhood alright



that problem lies with the size of the union and the age differences amongst the different locals.
*a large union is strong but only if the are in concurrence with contract decisions.*
if local 32 is comprised of younger members they are going to want higher wages at the cost of benefits and pension.
local 64 may want better pension and insurance options. its a viscous circle
when contract negotiations come out and one local screws another over crucial topics.
and you must be careful of company "Plants":surprise:
if a plant has been placed in local 22 and contract decision is made there first then he could easily put the screws to local 32 and local 64.
yes we have rules we must comply with but how do you control the possibility of moles and plants?:vs_mad:


today its handled with lawsuits and takes a lot of time, but there was a time that it was handled with a baseball bat or axe handle.
kind of rough but very effective!:devil3:


unions and companies can work together for mutual benefit, *but it must be mutual benefit! *as long as there is any contention no matter how small, mutual benefit can never happen


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

gnuuser said:


> that problem lies with the size of the union and the age differences amongst the different locals.


i'm actually talking about things like the younger guys getting 60/40 insurance with higher premiums and deductibles while i get 80/20 lower premium and lower deductible.

-and the new guys having to go 6 years now because of things like cw program.

-younger guys not getting money accrued for that pension.

-the new guys having to pay $1 an hour out of there check for so called training.

-not getting raises when they get the hours in but having to wait to complete the school year.

it all adds up

stuff like that, not whether the money goes to pension or on the check

i agree the union is what the members make it, but it's not just in my neck of the woods where this bad mentality is, it appears to be quite rampant to me. not everywhere though, i hear about some decent locals.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

HackWork said:


> 360max said:
> 
> 
> > So if a guy has a truck and can load up 4” rigid , and I get laid off because I have a car, I’d be beyond upset. That’s non union stuff right there, and that’s being nice about it.
> ...


...I am not in his local, genius. I know the international agreement, but individual locals put their twist in the mix.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

360max said:


> ...I am not in his local, genius. I know the international agreement, but individual locals put their twist in the mix.


Why not just admit that you don’t know what you are talking about and that you shouldn’t have opened your mouth in the first place, genius?


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