# EMF on a pipe



## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

rockban said:


> It is about a EMF issue in my friend's house. I am using Trifield Gauss meter.
> There is a pipe in the crawl space which is measured to be 25mG if I put the meter on it. It is 8mG one foot away. Let me call it pipe #1. The pipe #1 is small and is connected from Garage to swimming pool pump. It goes underground in the yard. I guess there are electricity wires inside the pipe because there is a box connected it which is supposed to be a wire box. Unfortunately, the pipe is just below two bedrooms. So the EMF readings in the two bedrooms are about 3mG in many spaces.
> when I turn off the main power at the panel, to my surprise, the EMF reading of the pipe is not changed at all. I am sure the power to the house is cut off because the reading on PG&E(the utility vendor) meter is 0W. I also measured another pipe under the PG&E meter. let me call it pipe #2. It is 50mG if I put meter on it. The pipe #2 is supposed to carry electricity wires from street to the house. There is a small strand connecting the panel to the pipe. I guess the strand is a ground wire.
> I measured the waterpipes in bathrooms. there is no big readings as pipe #1.
> ...


Is it just because I'm still a newb, or is this guy speaking a different language?

What is a gauss meter, why would you use it?

EDIT: This? 



> A *magnetometer* is a scientific instrument used to measure the strength and/or direction of the magnetic field in the vicinity of the instrument. Magnetism varies from place to place and differences in Earth's magnetic field (the magnetosphere) can be caused by the differing nature of rocks and the interaction between charged particles from the Sun and the magnetosphere of a planet. Magnetometers are a frequent component instrument on spacecraft that explore planets.


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## user438 (Jun 6, 2007)

I think that is the thing they use on Ghost Hunters TV show


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Frasbee said:


> What is a gauss meter, why would you use it?


It is a legitimate tool used to locate some types of electrical wiring problems by detecting EMF by the sane, or to locate spirits and ghosts by the insane.

Some people and the World Health Organization believe that exposure to high EMFs can be unhealthy. I don't know if that is true but simple wiring mistakes can cause high EMF readings.


http://www.magneticsciences.com/Bell5100-Gaussmeters.html


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## electric mike (Jun 15, 2009)

with apologies to the badger:thumbsup:


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Frasbee said:


> Is it just because I'm still a newb, or is this guy speaking a different language?
> 
> What is a gauss meter, why would you use it?
> 
> EDIT: This?


The gauss meter detects the strength of an electromagnetic field and he should ask all the neighbors who share the same source transformer to turn their main breakers off and then check. Good luck with that. By the way, I have one too and it is not for finding ghosts.


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## JohnR (Apr 12, 2010)

1, yes that is correct
2, umm so what why should you care
3, *NO* Don't do that. You could get someone killed doing that. Electricity is not something to play around with just because you have a gauss meter.
There are many publications on proper grounding procedures. THIS IS NOT A GOOD IDEA. Stop playing electrician and hire one instead. 
From The tone of your question, you are at BEST, an apprentice. At worst, you called yourself an electrician to keep from getting kicked off the forum. 
Which is it?


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

JohnR said:


> 1, yes that is correct
> 2, umm so what why should you care
> 3, *NO* Don't do that. You could get someone killed doing that. Electricity is not something to play around with just because you have a gauss meter.
> There are many publications on proper grounding procedures. THIS IS NOT A GOOD IDEA. Stop playing electrician and hire one instead.
> ...


You are right. The gauss meter is not for that purpose. But he does have extraneous currents on the piping system, possibly. He needs someone qualified.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

JohnR said:


> At worst, you called yourself an electrician to keep from getting kicked off the forum.


Good call, I already locked him out of Holt's a little while ago.:thumbsup:


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> But he does have extraneous currents on the piping system,


This is normal if the building is wired to code and has a metal water supply line.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> Good call, I already locked him out of Holt's a little while ago.:thumbsup:


Thank goodness. I 've been monitoring E-Harmony...we don't want him there either.:thumbsup:


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

For a second I thought he was referring to electromotive (magnetic) force.

But then I thought...who refers to voltage as EMF in construction?


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> This is normal if the building is wired to code and has a metal water supply line.


Surely, you are not saying that it is normal. I know that it happens, but I wouldn't call it normal. It shouldn't be there.:thumbsup:


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

RIVETER said:


> Surely, you are not saying that it is normal. I know that it happens, but I wouldn't call it normal. It shouldn't be there.:thumbsup:


Why? It is an artifact of basic physics. KCL.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

InPhase277 said:


> Why? It is an artifact of basic physics. KCL.


Tell me how it should work.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

RIVETER said:


> Tell me how it should work.


Because electricity takes every parallel path available to it.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

InPhase277 said:


> Because electricity takes every parallel path available to it.


I am not a residential electrician so you are telling me that all residential electricians plan on the pipe carrying part of the current.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> I am not a residential electrician so you are telling me that all residential electricians plan on the pipe carrying part of the current.


I am telling you that if you follow the NEC and have a metal underground water service current will flow on it.

This applies to all types of occupancies.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> Thank goodness. I 've been monitoring E-Harmony...we don't want him there either.:thumbsup:



:lol: :lol:


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Maybe it wasn't electric current giving you that reading....might be an unseen freind down there with you.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> I am telling you that if you follow the NEC and have a metal underground water service current will flow on it.
> 
> This applies to all types of occupancies.


If what you are saying is true then why do the questions about people getting shocked on their piping system come up so much...if they already know about it? I'm not saying that I don't think it happens. I am saying that if it is measurable then something is wrong with someone's service.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

OK, imagine a residential neirborhood with all the homes supplied by metal water lines.

In each home the water lines are connected to the service neutrals.

All these service neutrals are also connected to the same power company's MGN (Muliti-grounded Neutral) 

This means that all the water lines are electrically parrallel to the homes service neutral and because electricity takes all paths a large part of the service neutral current will flow on the pipes.

Is this ideal?

No.

Is it common in 100s of 1000s of homes in the US, I would say yes.

Is there anything that can really be done about it?

No, not unless the power companies start bonding the neutral only once and supply each home with a insulated neutral and a separate equipment bonding conductor.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

I understand what you are saying. So, if I go home tonight and tie a piece of #14 copper to my water pipe and attach the other end to the pipe 10 inches away, and then clamp an amp meter around it, I should see substantial current. Is that correct?


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> I understand what you are saying. So, if I go home tonight and tie a piece of #14 copper to my water pipe and attach the other end to the pipe 10 inches away, and then clamp an amp meter around it, I should see substantial current. Is that correct?


Well yes and no.

Lets assume your 120/240 service has 50 amps of load on leg 'A' and 30 amps of load on leg 'B', that means there should be 20 amps of imbalance on the neutral.

Now depending on the impedance of the neutral conductor and the impedance of the water line that 20 amps of current will divide betwen the waterpipe and the service neutral

Lets say 15 amps goes on the service neutral and 5 amps on the water line.

Now you come along and tie a piece of #14 copper to the water pipe and attach the other end to the pipe 10 inches away, some of that 5 amps of current will bypass that 10" of pipe and go through the 14 AWG.

But lets face it, the impedance of 14 AWG compared to say 3/4" copper pipe will be much greater so only a small portion of the 5 amps will take the 14 AWG route.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

It is my contention that no one would purposely cause a current to be flowing through the water pipe system. Even though there is a connection from the neutral to the ground rod and then the water pipe system, the impedance of either of them is too large to pass measurable current. The vastly lower impedance of the neutral will take the current back to the source transformer. Current will take the least path of resistance. In the event of a loose neutral somewhere and the impedance rises the current will take any and all paths it can find. That is the cause of stray currents, and they are not normal to find on a water pipe system. 
If there are any engineers out there tell me where this is wrong. I also believe that from what I've heard the poco grounds the primary,as well, so it is not out of the question to somehow get some primary current on a water pipe due to all of the redundancies.Aberrant voltages should be the only events that have the power to push through the earth. I am just saying what I think and welcome any new information.


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## HAND (Jul 15, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> OK, imagine a residential neirborhood with all the homes supplied by metal water lines.
> 
> In each home the water lines are connected to the service neutrals.
> 
> ...


 Yes Sir, those loop currents really blow but they don't allow it.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

stray current returning through your watermain ground and exiting through you pool.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Shockdoc said:


> stray current returning through your watermain ground and exiting through you pool.


Anything is possible ,and if they are there,stray currents, that is, they can cause the gradients that we hear about. Stray currents, in my opinion are not to be expected, or accepted, anywhere. They need to be diagnosed.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> It is my contention that no one would purposely cause a current to be flowing through the water pipe system.


It may well be your contention but it does not match what is really happening and what is allowed .... even expected.




> Even though there is a connection from the neutral to the ground rod and then the water pipe system, the impedance of either of them is too large to pass measurable current.


False, the current from the ground rod would be low but measurable.

The current on the water pipe can be very high.





> The vastly lower impedance of the neutral will take the current back to the source transformer.


False

Why would you think a metal water pipe that is electrically continuous around the neighborhood would have high impedance, it will have low impedance.





> Current will take the least path of resistance.


Forget you every heard anyone say that.

Current takes all paths available in proportion to each paths impedance.





> In the event of a loose neutral somewhere and the impedance rises the current will take any and all paths it can find.



With or without a good neutral the current takes all pats, of course if the neutral opens more of the current goes other directions.



> That is the cause of stray currents, and they are not normal to find on a water pipe system.


It is 'normal' in as much as there are always currents on the water lines.

An open neutral adds to this.

The real cause of stray currents is the power company's use of a multi-grounded neutral.




> If there are any engineers out there tell me where this is wrong.


I am not an engineer but I can tall you without a doubt at all you are mistaken.





> I also believe that from what I've heard the poco grounds the primary,as well,


They sure do.




> so it is not out of the question to somehow get some primary current on a water pipe due to all of the redundancies.


It takes a few problems combined to get primary currents on a water pipe but it is certainly possible.



> Aberrant voltages should be the only events that have the power to push through the earth.


Huh?

120 volts can 'push through the earth' and does so regularly.

The earth as a whole has very low impedance, a ground rods connection to the earth may exhibit high impedance.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

There is no way I could break down your answer as you did mine; I am not smart enough so I will take one statement. You mentioned that the waterpipe has a low impedance, and you are correct, but it is at the point that it ends and has no where to complete the circuit that the hi impedance begins. If what you say is true there could never be any measurable current on the water pipe once it enters contact with earth. There would be millions of parallel paths through the earth to the neutral that no where could you measure it. I stand by my proposition that you do not want stray currents through the water pipe system and if you will, go home and measure yours and let me know what it is.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> You mentioned that the waterpipe has a low impedance, and you are correct, but it is at the point that it ends and has no where to complete the circuit that the hi impedance begins.


I understand what you are saying and if your house was the only one in the area supplied by that metal water line I would even agree with you.

But that metal water line along with going to your home may go to a number of homes. In each of those home those pipes connected to their service neutrals as well so there is not point where 'it ends'.

If your service neutral where to open entirely the current would go out your water line and into the neighbors home and out their service neutral.

If all the neutrals are good you still have current flow but to a lesser extent.

If I get time maybe I will draw it out for you.





> If what you say is true there could never be any measurable current on the water pipe once it enters contact with earth.


I do not folow you here.



> There would be millions of parallel paths through the earth to the neutral that no where could you measure it.



There are millions of paths and yes you could mesure them.

Take your volt meter, stick one lead in the dirt, now exten the other lead 100' in any direction and stick a lead into the dirt at that location.

Look at the reading, it will not be zero, if there is a voltage reading there is current.



> I stand by my proposition that you do not want stray currents through the water pipe system


I agree we would choose not to have current on the water lines,................ but there will be and there is nothing you and I can do about it and still comply with the NEC.

Because of that current some water companies are requiring dielectric fitting be installed out side the homes to protect the people working on the pipes,

There is no maybe about this, you really need to draw it out or read some books on the subject.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Wow, I was reading what you wrote and found that most of it I agreed with and then you insulted me in the last sentence. As I asked, go home and measure yours...and I mean the current through the water pipe system. I still love ya , man.:thumbsup:


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> Wow, I was reading what you wrote and found that most of it I agreed with and then you insulted me in the last sentence.


You think that a suggestion to draw the circuit out we are discussing or to read some books on the subject is an insult?

Dude ........ come on, I think I am pretty clear when I am insulting someone and that was not what I was doing there.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> You think that a suggestion to draw the circuit out we are discussing or to read some books on the subject is an insult?
> 
> Dude ........ come on, I think I am pretty clear when I am insulting someone and that was not what I was doing there.


Okay, I'm good, now. Thanks for the apology. I guess what I am getting at is that if it takes so little to start a person's heart to fibrillating,.5ma, or so why in the world would you purposely have ANY current on the piping system. By "on purpose" I mean, knowing it is there and saying that it is okay. Can you just measure the current on your water pipe system and let me know how much it is? I did not have any on mine.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

OK here is a drawing I got from a Canadian electrical instructor and a great guy named Ed. 

It predicts the current flowing on each part of the grounding electrode system.

This shows what I think Riveter had in mind with all electrodes only connecting to the earth. The metal water lines are not electrically continuous between homes so the current flow is fairly small. 

Each grounding rod is 25 ohms to ground the water line 10 ohms.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> OK here is a drawing I got from a Canadian electrical instructor and a great guy named Ed.
> 
> It predicts the current flowing on each part of the grounding electrode system.
> 
> ...


That is a great pictorial and schematic. I tried and tried to disprove it but it is correct at least the way it is drawn. Some of the assumptions I don't know about, but at least they make the formulas work.I don't want to drag this out. I am not convinced but that doesn't mean that I think I am right. I throw things out there hoping that someone, if they can, agrees, or disagrees. I still think someone should, if they could, measure the current on their water pipe and let us know what they come up with. To me it is a very important step in understanding grounding.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

We receive calls regarding this regularly, from homeowners that call EMF guys or buy cheap EMF meters. I will not get involved in any discussions with them regarding health issues, I am not qualified and if EMFs are killing us I am a DEAD MAN.

We typically do a investigation, explain what is causing the problem and in several instances found problems other than the water pipe issue in the house that contributed to the situation. We did correct these issues.

I feel there is a simple fix to this.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

brian john said:


> I feel there is a simple fix to this.


So you are keeping to yourself so you can make big money?


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