# Failed Math Apptitude part of Test for IBEW entry



## brian john

warnerms said:


> Well I had been reviewing Algebra for the last month, but was just too slow to complete the math test in the allotted time: 35 questions/40 minutes. I was just over half done when the guy giving the test gave us the 2 minute warning, then I started frantically filling in the dots at random. Like that was really going to work  I'm feeling pretty damn low at the moment, because I did well on the Compass Exam, and went all the way through Calculus in college. I just got stuck on more than one question and did not realize I had burned up so much time.
> 
> My question is this: Are there any realistic practice test for the Math part of this exam?
> I have always done poorly on timed test of this sort, so I need to do as many practice test as I can, before I retry in 6 months. With a timer running of course.
> 
> Thanks,
> Scott Warner


COMMUNITY COLLEGE Algebra One two, geometry, pre calculus I, II and III. NOW


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## drsparky

practice practice practice


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## warnerms

*Gee?*

And that's what I thought I was doing? It certainly helped on the Compass test, but that was not timed. The questions on Compass test seemed a lot more like the math I had actually reviewed. Whereas not so much on the IBEW test, hence the reason I ask if there are any realistic practice test? Or if not that, any Algebra book in particular
that has practice questions that are a lot more like the questions on the IBEW exam?

Thanks,
Scott Warner


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## sparkyboys

hey even einstein failed math. math is not something you can memorize in a month. even after years of electrical i still have to practice. at least review once a week just to stay on it.
brian is right, you need to start some knd of math class immediately, i recommend intermediate algebra before the algebra. it can get that brain hurting when trying to learn but practice, practice, practice is the key.


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## jimmyer

*exam*



brian john said:


> COMMUNITY COLLEGE Algebra One two, geometry, pre calculus I, II and III. NOW


 
Practice,practice ,practice if you need tutoring ,get help and when you take the exam just relax and do the elimination process or 50- 50 so you will have a good chance of passing the exam also buy a book about aptitude exam or find out from the JATC which book is good.and when you pass the exam and get in to the program,this will just be the beginning.SEt your mind to pass the exam.I took a Real Estate Brokers exam 3 times with in a week apart.Finally I passed, bec. I study hard on the 3rd try.I had to study on subjects that I was low on the second exam.Even though I had a cd with 1500 questions that spent time studying but It wasnt enough so what I am saying whatever you need to do to pass the exam and never give up.Just go go go..............


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## jredwood301

now you know what the test consist of so you can study the material on the test.

before taking test.
1. dont time your self till you know the process of solving the problem.
2. memorize the order of operations.
3. do the math in long form NO CALCULATORS! (very important)
4. once you have mastered 1&2 you can start timing yourself.




when taking the test.

1. if stumped on question move on to next one.
2. always go with first instinct.
3. always eliminate the answers you know are wrong.


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## brian john

jredwood301 said:


> now you know what the test consist of so you can study the material on the test.
> 
> before taking test.
> 1. dont time your self till you know the process of solving the problem.
> 2. memorize the order of operations.
> 3. do the math in long form NO CALCULATORS! (very important)
> 4. once you have mastered 1&2 you can start timing yourself.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> when taking the test.
> 
> 1. if stumped on question move on to next one.
> 2. always go with first instinct.
> 3. always eliminate the answers you know are wrong.


test taking 101, this is what I have always tried to do.


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## warnerms

*well?*



jimmyer said:


> Practice,practice ,practice if you need tutoring ,get help and when you take the exam just relax and do the elimination process or 50- 50 so you will have a good chance of passing the exam also buy a book about aptitude exam or find out from the JATC which book is good.and when you pass the exam and get in to the program,this will just be the beginning.SEt your mind to pass the exam.I took a Real Estate Brokers exam 3 times with in a week apart.Finally I passed, bec. I study hard on the 3rd try.I had to study on subjects that I was low on the second exam.Even though I had a cd with 1500 questions that spent time studying but It wasnt enough so what I am saying whatever you need to do to pass the exam and never give up.Just go go go..............


I don't think I need tutoring, as I did fine with math while in college. I just reviewed a lot material that was irrelevant to this particular math test. That said, I will ask again: are there any practice test that are like this one? Or specific algebra books with a lot of practice problems that would be like the questions on the test?

I took the Real Estate Sales Person exam, and breezed through that, but of course there were actual practice test available, and the specific text book used in the Real Estate class to study.

Thanks,
Scott


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## warnerms

brian john said:


> test taking 101, this is what I have always tried to do.


Yes I know all of that. Since I have not used math much in any work (except trig, matrix algebra), or even been in a math class in years, I would have needed to review material that was relevant to this specific test. I got a book at the bookstore published by Barrons, called "Forgotten Algebra" and did every problem in the book. This was very helpful for the COMPASS test, but not particularly helpful for the IBEW apptitude test, as there were not a lot of similar practice problems. I'm sure none of the questions on the test were that difficult, but if you have not been doing practice problems that are very similar, it would just take that much longer, and the time alotted for each question is just over 1 minute.
For instance, in the Barron's book there were no questions of the sort where an equation is presented, and you are asked to pick from a list the equation that is equivalent. Well if you have been doing a lot of this type of problem, then it would not be so hard to perhaps just rearrange what you are looking at it in your head. I was trying to rearrange the equation in the margin (why don't they give you any scratch paper) and burning up way to much time on each of this type of problem.
There were certainly no Number Sequence problems in the Barron's book.

In hindsite I should have come to this website awhile ago, and asked about the test.
I did not find the 5 practice problems that the IBEW provided to be particularly helpful, in that they seemed to have chosen the simpler questions to use as examples. Does the IBEW have anything in the way of complete 35 question practice test?

One thing I did notice was that there were an awful lot of people in the room that were not done with the math section when the time was up, whereas just about everyone was done with the reading section well before the test was done.
I guess there are a lot of us in need of better review material for the math section?

Scott


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## warnerms

sparkyboys said:


> hey even einstein failed math. math is not something you can memorize in a month. even after years of electrical i still have to practice. at least review once a week just to stay on it.
> brian is right, you need to start some knd of math class immediately, i recommend intermediate algebra before the algebra. it can get that brain hurting when trying to learn but practice, practice, practice is the key.


Well I had to take plenty of math to get my B.S. in Computer Science, so it's not like I don't understand the concepts when presented. That said, what I need are lot's of problems that are similar to the IBEW test questions, to practice, practice, practice, ..., so I can just go faster on this test and not spend too much time on any one/two/... problem(s). So I will ask once more, are there any realistic practice test, or specific Algebra books with lots of practice problems similar to the questions on the test?

If you blow this test, you have to wait 6 months to retake it (seems excessive),
so I really need to get it right next time and not be looking at a lot of stuff that will not even be on the test, i.e. trignometric identities, systems of equations, ...
There is a Math store here in Seattle called "Math and Stuff". I will go see if they have anything with lots of practice problems that look like whats on the IBEW test.



Thanks Everyone, and if you think of any specific algebra book that would be good review(practice) for the IBEW test, let me know?
Scott


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## sparkyboys

get algebra for dummies, they have it. barnes&noble.


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## s.kelly

I cannot promise that it would help or not,but the IBEW has a math text that comes with first year books, or at least did in my area when I started. I also think I saw an ad somewhere for a math review book by the JATC. I will hunt around later and see if I can dig up more info. In the mean time if you have a friend in or thru the apprenticeship, it might help. Though I expect it is some other math book rebranded and sold,so it might not be any different.


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## warnerms

s.kelly said:


> I cannot promise that it would help or not,but the IBEW has a math text that comes with first year books, or at least did in my area when I started. I also think I saw an ad somewhere for a math review book by the JATC. I will hunt around later and see if I can dig up more info. In the mean time if you have a friend in or thru the apprenticeship, it might help. Though I expect it is some other math book rebranded and sold,so it might not be any different.


OK
Thanks


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## sparkyboys

if ya got a bs in cs, why start all over----in wage, and at the bottom


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## warnerms

sparkyboys said:


> if ya got a bs in cs, why start all over----in wage, and at the bottom


Well, because even if I could find another computer job, I can't see myself sitting on my ass in a cubical for the next 15~ years. And American Programmers seems to be an endangered species given the number of H1B visas the government hands out to foreign nationals every year. Programmers in the US have never had a Union to look out for their interest in Congress, but the corporations certainly lobby for more H1B visas to be issued every year, claiming they can't find enough programmers in the US (Bull).
Not that I would want to work for Microsoft, but when I go to any of our local neighborhood pubs here in Seattle, more than half the people I meet that work at Microsoft are in this Country on H1B visas (from England, India mostly, China, Russia, ...). The really screwed up thing is having to train your foreign replacement before your given the pink slip.
The other thing about software is that it can be produced anywhere on the planet, and of course these other places have considerably lower labor/living cost.
It's not that there are not any programming jobs, but I see a future where there are fewer & fewer opportunities for US born programmers. The only safe jobs in this country are the ones where you have to be physically present: nurse, teacher, electrician, plumber,.. I was a telecommunications technician before I went to college, and I did Electrical work while in college. I figure I may as well pursue something I had done before and had an interest in.


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## sparkyboys

warnerms, i understand your dilemma, foreigners suc big phucking balls. but you do not have to work for a union to get a good wage or good benefits. you know you could possibly get a job for an electrical contractor in the office using an auto cad prgram do you have experience with acad. hell it does not matter you got a bs in cs.


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## warnerms

sparkyboys said:


> warnerms, i understand your dilemma, foreigners suc big phucking balls. but you do not have to work for a union to get a good wage or good benefits. you know you could possibly get a job for an electrical contractor in the office using an auto cad prgram do you have experience with acad. hell it does not matter you got a bs in cs.


Well I don't blame it so much on the Foreigners, as I do on our Congress/Senate Men/Woman selling us all out so their rich corporate buddies can be that much richer. And of course it's their same corporate buddies that decided to outsource software development, our manufacturing capability, so they could, err, cut expenses and give themselves big fat bonuses at the end of the year. The disparity between the highest paid employee within a Company and it's lowest paid employee is rather astonishing for many large American Corporations. Yes the rich do get much richer, and the Middle Class working stiffs are just pawns in the Global games of the Rich. The arrogance of these type of people was certainly well illustrated with Public bail out of AIG, and subsequent multimillion dollar bonuses being paid out from the bailout funds.

I have used TurboCad, which is sort of AutoCads poor cousin.


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## brian john

warnerms said:


> Well I don't blame it so much on the Foreigners, as I do on our Congress/Senate Men/Woman selling us all out so their rich corporate buddies can be that much richer. .
> .


HORSE HOCKEY; Blame the big boys a typical SCAPE GOAT mentality, Dems blame big business, Rep blame welfare and illegals. And neither side does crap for us. VOTE THEM OUT

Americans want cheap products, We have some blame in all this. Plus Congress is afraid of the Hispanic lobby as much as they help corporations. What big corporation is employing illegals? GM, Chrysler, Toyota? Maybe the chicken producers and that lot?


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## LGLS

warnerms said:


> Well I don't blame it so much on the Foreigners, as I do on our Congress/Senate Men/Woman selling us all out so their rich corporate buddies can be that much richer. And of course it's their same corporate buddies that decided to outsource software development, our manufacturing capability, so they could, err, cut expenses and give themselves big fat bonuses at the end of the year. The disparity between the highest paid employee within a Company and it's lowest paid employee is rather astonishing for many large American Corporations. Yes the rich do get much richer, and the Middle Class working stiffs are just pawns in the Global games of the Rich. The arrogance of these type of people was certainly well illustrated with Public bail out of AIG, and subsequent multimillion dollar bonuses being paid out from the bailout funds.
> 
> I have used TurboCad, which is sort of AutoCads poor cousin.


My new best friend... :thumbsup:

Now, where the heck can I find a sarcasm smiley?


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## warnerms

brian john said:


> HORSE HOCKEY; Blame the big boys a typical SCAPE GOAT mentality, Dems blame big business, Rep blame welfare and illegals. And neither side does crap for us. VOTE THEM OUT


Well I usually vote Libertarian, but that's never worked.
And don't even get me started about what was done by the politicians on both sides of the fence
that allowed the current mortgage mess. Legislation to allow any Tom, ****, or Mary to sign the dotted line to get a mortgage they certainly would not be able to pay back. A live now, forget about the future mentality. And the Mortgage Broker buddies of the politicians certainly took full advantage of the situation, to write loans they damn well knew most of these people would not ever be able to pay off. Are these Mortgage Brokers crying? Hell no, they got all the commissions they could while the good times rolled, and have moved on to other things leaving who holding the bag?


brian john said:


> Americans want cheap products, We have some blame in all this. Plus Congress is afraid of the Hispanic lobby as much as they help corporations. What big corporation is employing illegals? GM, Chrysler, Toyota? Maybe the chicken producers and that lot?


Cheap Products: Hmm, Walmart comes to mind, and all those profits are going to one family. It sure the hell is not going to paying their employees a livable wage with decent benefits. In contrast Costco may have put a lot of small businesses out of business just like Walmart, but at least they do pay their employees a livable wage and provide decent benefits.


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## RePhase277

Math isn't something you memorize. It is something you must _understand_. If you don't know the whys and wherefores, you will never pass a math test.


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## warnerms

InPhase277 said:


> Math isn't something you memorize. It is something you must _understand_. If you don't know the whys and wherefores, you will never pass a math test.


 Gee, if I managed to get through Trig, Linear Algebra, Combinatorics, Calculus I, II, III you'd think I would have understood something. And there were a few exams involved. Go figure!


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## RePhase277

warnerms said:


> Gee, if I managed to get through Trig, Linear Algebra, Combinatorics, Calculus I, II, III you'd think I would have understood something. And there were a few exams involved. Go figure!


I didn't make the statement about you in particular. It is a general statement that includes all people. If you only know the equations and the rules, but don't understand them, you are bound to run into problems you can't solve.

What was the problem you got hung up on?


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## warnerms

InPhase277 said:


> I didn't make the statement about you in particular. It is a general statement that includes all people. If you only know the equations and the rules, but don't understand them, you are bound to run into problems you can't solve.
> 
> What was the problem you got hung up on?


Not having had enough practice with the actual types of questions on the test.
Yes, I reviewed algebra by doing every problem in a book published by Barrons, called "Forgotten Algebra", unfortunately a lot of what was covered in this book was
completely irrelevant to what was on the IBEW aptitude test. That's is why I keep asking if there are any realistic practice test, or a specific Algebra book that would have a lot of practice problems similar to those asked on the IBEW test? Number sequences, matching equivalent equations, ...


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## brian john

warnerms said:


> Gee, if I managed to get through Trig, Linear Algebra, Combinatorics, Calculus I, II, III you'd think I would have understood something. And there were a few exams involved. Go figure!


 
If you did all this and did poorly on the IBEW test, you were either sleeping or high. I DO NOT BUY IT or you are a poor tester.


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## MDShunk

By a certain point in a man's lifetime, you either know this stuff or you don't. I'm not really sure that stuffing a bunch of things in your head from a review book, regurgitating it on a test, and promptly forgetting most of it, does much good for anyone. Sells books, I suppose.

When I hear people report, "I would not have passed if it were not for XYZ book/review program", I get slightly worried. Makes me wonder if they know anything still or not. Some people do really well at self-study. Some people remember long enough to take a test. It's the second group that worries me.


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## LGLS

warnerms said:


> Well I had to take plenty of math to get my B.S. in Computer Science, so it's not like I don't understand the concepts when presented. That said, what I need are lot's of problems that are similar to the IBEW test questions, to practice, practice, practice, ..., so I can just go faster on this test and not spend too much time on any one/two/... problem(s). So I will ask once more, are there any realistic practice test, or specific Algebra books with lots of practice problems similar to the questions on the test?
> 
> If you blow this test, you have to wait 6 months to retake it (seems excessive),
> so I really need to get it right next time and not be looking at a lot of stuff that will not even be on the test, i.e. trignometric identities, systems of equations, ...
> There is a Math store here in Seattle called "Math and Stuff". I will go see if they have anything with lots of practice problems that look like whats on the IBEW test.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Everyone, and if you think of any specific algebra book that would be good review(practice) for the IBEW test, let me know?
> Scott


I don't know how it's possible to have achieved a BS in computer science and not be able to pass a SIMPLE BASIC algebra test. Actually I do know... you skated through college using the internet and test takers and cheat sheets to get answers and the degree, instead of to study and actually learn the coursework and become a smart person.

Geez, computer science, real estate, electrical, you're all over the place aren't you? A big part of the reason you failed was that you cannot follow simple instructions, which were do NOT guess answers, the test will be scored based on what you answered weighed against what you didn't. If you answered 50% of the questions all correctly, you would have passed. It WASN'T a speed test. But it is used to ELIMINATE the rocket scientists who answer 100% of the questions all correctly.


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## LGLS

warnerms said:


> Gee, if I managed to get through Trig, Linear Algebra, Combinatorics, Calculus I, II, III you'd think I would have understood something. And there were a few exams involved. Go figure!


All of which you cheated on, because the IBEW math exam is about 1/2 as difficult as the final regents exam for 9th grade math course I / Algebra I.

Apparently, you googled your way through college, if you didn't, you sure as heck wouldn't be looking for a career as a construction worker. 

Let me temper this with of advice - don't think you're as smart as you apparently think you are. Tests are designed to separate those who posess the necessary skills and natural talent from the bull**** artists. Guess why you failed?


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## warnerms

brian john said:


> If you did all this and did poorly on the IBEW test, you were either sleeping or high. I DO NOT BUY IT or you are a poor tester.


Brian, are you suggesting that everything anyone has ever learned is permanently implanted in their brain, and can be recalled at any future instance in their life. I could speak German when I was 14, but I have not lived in Germany since I was 14, and have not been around anyone speaking German since I lived in Germany. How much German do you suppose I remember now? I guess you are some sort of Genius, have a photographic memory and can recall anything you have ever done.:whistling2:


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## warnerms

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> I don't know how it's possible to have achieved a BS in computer science and not be able to pass a SIMPLE BASIC algebra test. Actually I do know... you skated through college using the internet and test takers and cheat sheets to get answers and the degree, instead of to study and actually learn the coursework and become a smart person.
> 
> Geez, computer science, real estate, electrical, you're all over the place aren't you? A big part of the reason you failed was that you cannot follow simple instructions, which were do NOT guess answers, the test will be scored based on what you answered weighed against what you didn't. If you answered 50% of the questions all correctly, you would have passed. It WASN'T a speed test. But it is used to ELIMINATE the rocket scientists who answer 100% of the questions all correctly.


Well I'm sure the +50% I did answer, before filling in the remaining dots at random when 2 minutes remaining was called, were all correct. If you don't answer 28 of the 35 questions correctly, how the hell could you possibly get a passing score, which I have heard is 80%. Am I totally missing something here, or are you pulling my leg? There were no instructions of the type you have indicated.

There was no Internet in college, and our calculators still had L.E.Ds, and we had to breadboard our own computers out of various TTL logic chips. We used Apple IIs to write programs in Assembly and Pascal. The best computer on campus was a PDP-11/45 running an early version of UNIX. The most powerful CPU of the day was the Motorola 68000. My last year I bought an Apple Macintosh when it first came out, and it was the first Computer any of us had seen with a GUI. Need I go on?


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## erics37

warnerms said:


> ..Programmers in the US have never had a Union to look out for their interest in Congress.


Maybe you just found your calling :thumbup:


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## warnerms

erics37 said:


> Maybe you just found your calling :thumbup:


Actually I would rather lobby against software patents, which make about as much sense as handing out patents for mathematical equations. There were no software patents until Microsoft & IBM started slinging mud at each other and lobbied for such.


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## brian john

warnerms said:


> Brian, are you suggesting that everything anyone has ever learned is permanently implanted in their brain, and can be recalled at any future instance in their life. I could speak German when I was 14, but I have not lived in Germany since I was 14, and have not been around anyone speaking German since I lived in Germany. How much German do you suppose I remember now? I guess you are some sort of Genius, have a photographic memory and can recall anything you have ever done.:whistling2:


 
NO I am telling you I FLUNKED high school Algebra, geometry, and quit algebra II and passed the test. Once you have the basics down a review should put you back on track.


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## sparkyboys

i agree with brian and landsparky on this one. if you(warnerm) have a bs in computer science and can not even pass a simple algebra test, i think your bs IS BS. a simple review would have brought you up to speed. i love math, its easier for me. but, anyway how old are you? they did not have internet when you went to college?! after passing all that calculus, you cant even do algebra, that does not make sense. my uncle is a senior anylst programmer that has not seen math in years, and when i start spitting off electrical equations, he like"put it on paper, let me see what you talking about" i show him, he gets a little confused for a minute and then my 60 yr OL man jumps in on it, no no no, its like this and they work it in seconds. oh my OL man is a CPA,retired, but still. If math runs in you, it never dies.


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## LGLS

warnerms said:


> Well I'm sure the +50% I did answer, before filling in the remaining dots at random when 2 minutes remaining was called, were all correct. If you don't answer 28 of the 35 questions correctly, how the hell could you possibly get a passing score, which I have heard is 80%. Am I totally missing something here, or are you pulling my leg? There were no instructions of the type you have indicated.


DO NOT GUESS.

It's standard procedure.
Now, with your BS in computer science perhaps you can tell us the probability of passing a test when 50% of the questions are answered correctly, and 50% of the remaining 35 questions you had a 1 in 4 chance of guessing correctly?



> There was no Internet in college, and our calculators still had L.E.Ds, and we had to breadboard our own computers out of various TTL logic chips. We used Apple IIs to write programs in Assembly and Pascal. The best computer on campus was a PDP-11/45 running an early version of UNIX. The most powerful CPU of the day was the Motorola 68000. My last year I bought an Apple Macintosh when it first came out, and it was the first Computer any of us had seen with a GUI. Need I go on?


Wow... so you're like what, 44+ something?


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## user4818

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> But it is used to ELIMINATE the rocket scientists who answer 100% of the questions all correctly.


So if you get a perfect score on the IBEW entrance test, you're eliminated? :001_huh:


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## warnerms

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> DO NOT GUESS.
> 
> It's standard procedure.
> Now, with your BS in computer science perhaps you can tell us the probability of passing a test when 50% of the questions are answered correctly, and 50% of the remaining 35 questions you had a 1 in 4 chance of guessing correctly?


Assuming one answered the first 18 correctly, then we can figure the probability based on the remaining question less the ones we do not need to get right in order to achieve a passing score of 80%. So there are 17 questions left of which we need to answer 10 correctly in order to pass. So the probability is (1/4) to the 10, or
1 in 1048576. On the other hand if you guess nothing your chances would be ZERO!


LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Wow... so you're like what, 44+ something?


Yeah, like 48


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## LGLS

Peter D said:


> So if you get a perfect score on the IBEW entrance test, you're eliminated? :001_huh:


If you get 100 out of 100 you WILL be eliminated as overqualified.


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## LGLS

warnerms said:


> Assuming one answered the first 18 correctly, then we can figure the probability based on the remaining question less the ones we do not need to get right in order to achieve a passing score of 80%. So there are 17 questions left of which we need to answer 10 correctly in order to pass. So the probability is (1/4) to the 10, or
> 1 in 1048576. On the other hand if you guess nothing your chances would be ZERO!


Wrong because you did not heed the INSTRUCTIONS which werew NOT to guess at unanswered questions, your score is based on what you answered correctly against what you answered incorrectly.



> Yeah, like 48


Based on this an your other postings, it's a good thing you're not going to make it in. Apprenticeships are for apprentices, not rediscovered 50-somethings looking for a quick and easy pension to make up for their life's mistakes.


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## warnerms

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Wrong because you did not heed the INSTRUCTIONS which werew NOT to guess at unanswered questions, your score is based on what you answered correctly against what you answered incorrectly.


 And exactly where were these instructions? They did not come from the person giving the test.



LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Based on this an your other postings, it's a good thing you're not going to make it in. Apprenticeships are for apprentices, not rediscovered 50-somethings looking for a quick and easy pension to make up for their life's mistakes.


So in your humble opinion, if your first career seems to be shot at 48, then you should just roll over and die? I bet your a real fun guy to hang out with. NOT!


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## brian john

warnerms said:


> And exactly where were these instructions? They did not come from the person giving the test.
> 
> 
> So in your humble opinion, if your first career seems to be shot at 48, then you should just roll over and die? I bet your a real fun guy to hang out with. NOT!


 
I have a friend on his 5th career. Some people get bored, some never settle in or the field they are in dies, others see bigger cash.

Not sure about getting in the local at an older age? There use to be an age limit on apprentices.


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## drsparky

I got in at 38 another in my class was 45. I will be an old man when I retire again. Most of the folks I am working with will retire in there late 50s, I will have to got to 62.


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## LGLS

warnerms said:


> And exactly where were these instructions? They did not come from the person giving the test.


So you say.



> So in your humble opinion, if your first career seems to be shot at 48, then you should just roll over and die? I bet your a real fun guy to hang out with. NOT!


Are you kidding? I'm a legend in my own mind! As for your question, if by the age of 48 you're looking to go from a lifelong cubicle dwelling paper pusher to construction, you probably failed to make any worthwhile backup plans and outright ignored the networking everyone has been doing since the 80's.


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## brian john

drsparky said:


> I got in at 38 another in my class was 45. I will be an old man when I retire again. Most of the folks I am working with will retire in there late 50s, I will have to got to 62.


 
I am going to 71 as an early out; MAYBE, if the heart is still working maybe later.


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## LGLS

brian john said:


> I am going to 71 as an early out; MAYBE, if the heart is still working maybe later.


HUH?

You mean 51?


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## brian john

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> HUH?
> 
> You mean 51?


I am 56 now and plan to work at least 15 more years. 71 is early for me.

Heard on the news dementia can be delayed by 6 weeks for every extra year you work, so my delaying for nine years you retirement you pick up a year.

That is not why I am staying around. I like what I do and have a 17 year old daughter that wants to go to med school, plus I have 3 in college at present.


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## drsparky

I got one in high school, one just finish her second year as a history major. She is thinking of Law school. I will probably have to work a few more years for that.


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## brian john

drsparky said:


> I got one in high school, one just finish her second year as a history major. She is thinking of Law school. I will probably have to work a few more years for that.


One a Junior in HS
One starting second year as an engineering student
One in last year as a history major.
One in grad school for political science.


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## LGLS

brian john said:


> One a Junior in HS
> One starting second year as an engineering student
> One in last year as a history major.
> One in grad school for political science.


What, no astronaut?


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## 1900

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Based on this an your other postings, it's a good thing you're not going to make it in. Apprenticeships are for apprentices, not rediscovered 50-somethings looking for a quick and easy pension to make up for their life's mistakes.


Wow...

I'm not joking here when I say that you really are an asshole. Honestly, you couldn't have proven it any better than you have.


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## brian john

1900 said:


> Wow...
> 
> I'm not joking here when I say that you really are an asshole. Honestly, you couldn't have proven it any better than you have.


 

That was the union position in many areas for years. As for LGLS attitude he just sees things differently than you and others, BUT what would this forum be without him.


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## 1900

brian john said:


> That was the union position in many areas for years. As for LGLS attitude he just sees things differently than you and others, BUT what would this forum be without him.


Union position or not, for him to talk to another man like that, for no good reason, behind the security of a keyboard is just lame.


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## LGLS

1900 said:


> Union position or not, for him to talk to another man like that, for no good reason, behind the security of a keyboard is just lame.


Well 1900 I'm sorry you feel that way, but you're entitled to your opinion. Some people see the pension as some magical pile of mystery money that just appears out of nowhere. I've seen people manipulate their lives to get in on multiple pension systems in a manner that would make a AIG executive blush.


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## warnerms

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Well 1900 I'm sorry you feel that way, but you're entitled to your opinion. Some people see the pension as some magical pile of mystery money that just appears out of nowhere. I've seen people manipulate their lives to get in on multiple pension systems in a manner that would make a AIG executive blush.


Well I honestly don't even know what the IBEW pension plan is?
So your speculation on that point was so much bull!
But really I have enough in my IRA to not be worried.
Now that I know what is on the test, I will go retake it in November,
and I'm sure I will do just fine. No thanks to any of your, err, helpful suggestions.
In the meantime I will keep building websites, collecting ad revenue, and selling off my domain names for whopping profits. It might be hard for a Guy like you to understand why someone my age would want a job in the trades, but I actually enjoyed this type of work when I was younger. I have built and installed commercial signs, worked as a telecommunications technician, and worked for an Electrical Company while in college. I get a certain satisfaction in working with my hands that can't be had sitting behind a computer screen all day. Physical things are just more tangible than computer software, in a sense that your work will be around for years to come and it's something you can point at and say: I built that sign, or I did the electrical in that building, ...


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## warnerms

1900 said:


> Union position or not, for him to talk to another man like that, for no good reason, behind the security of a keyboard is just lame.


Well he can speculate about my intentions, and ramble on all he wants, but really I do have thick skin and it's not like he is going to hurt my feelings or discourage me in any way. For all we know, he is on the bench, bitter about it and feeling a need to take it all out on someone else.


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## LGLS

warnerms said:


> Well I honestly don't even know what the IBEW pension plan is?
> So your speculation on that point was so much bull!
> But really I have enough in my IRA to not be worried.
> Now that I know what is on the test, I will go retake it in November,
> and I'm sure I will do just fine. No thanks to any of your, err, helpful suggestions.


Well then here's another helpful suggestion-

Many IBEW locals are remaking themselves in many respects, including adopting a whole new testing procedure. Unless you're a blithering idiot, which I don't think you are, you should have no problem with most of it based solely on your age and life experience. But the tests are getting far more math intense, not so much because you really need to be a math major to be an electrician, but because of all the computerized and computer systems related work we do. 

I strongly suggest you get up to the same speed as a good 10th grade HS student in the math department.



> In the meantime I will keep building websites, collecting ad revenue, and selling off my domain names for whopping profits. It might be hard for a Guy like you to understand why someone my age would want a job in the trades, but I actually enjoyed this type of work when I was younger.


Did you think tradesman don't enjoy their work? I know in some areas the trades are what you end up with when all else fails or doesn't seem worth trying... but here, 14,000 applied to take our apprentice test for 250 openings...



> I have built and installed commercial signs, worked as a telecommunications technician, and worked for an Electrical Company while in college. I get a certain satisfaction in working with my hands that can't be had sitting behind a computer screen all day. Physical things are just more tangible than computer software, in a sense that your work will be around for years to come and it's something you can point at and say: I built that sign, or I did the electrical in that building, ...


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## sparkyboys

well warnerms all i can say to you is, good luck. if you want to learn the electrical trade, then so be it, do it. but you may want to think about maybe doing a two certification at a technical school, then one year in construction business management, take a journeyman test, then become a project manager. this would be the best solution for your age and back.

good luck. dont let these guys get you down. if you dream a dream, get at it and show em whats up. then in three to five years, you could be one of their bosses.


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## sopranocaponyc

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Well then here's another helpful suggestion-
> 
> Many IBEW locals are remaking themselves in many respects, including adopting a whole new testing procedure. Unless you're a blithering idiot, which I don't think you are, you should have no problem with most of it based solely on your age and life experience. But the tests are getting far more math intense, not so much because you really need to be a math major to be an electrician, but because of all the computerized and computer systems related work we do.
> 
> I strongly suggest you get up to the same speed as a good 10th grade HS student in the math department.
> 
> 
> 
> Did you think tradesman don't enjoy their work? I know in some areas the trades are what you end up with when all else fails or doesn't seem worth trying... but here, 14,000 applied to take our apprentice test for 250 openings...


 
When i took the test way back in 98 if was totally different from what it was on the 18th of may. All i remember was putting pegs in the boxes etc, and a brief test. this test was allot of math 52/170 ?'s.

So they are taking 250 for this apprenticeship. When i took the test in 98 i got my letter saying I passed and went for the interview. Then got my letter in sept 01 saying i got in.

So now When i pass this test and go for my interview if I'm in The top 250 i will be called for this apprenticeship, if I'm 250 or less I'll just have to wait till they get to my rank is that right.


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## LGLS

Pretty much. They're taking 250 for this year, will take another ??? the next time they start a class, etc. I dunno how low they go on the list before they scrap the rest of the applicants and re-open the whole test again, but based on the apprentice I had yesterday it's pretty darn phucking low.


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## sopranocaponyc

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Pretty much. They're taking 250 for this year, will take another ??? the next time they start a class, etc. I dunno how low they go on the list before they scrap the rest of the applicants and re-open the whole test again, but based on the apprentice I had yesterday it's pretty darn phucking low.


 
so its probably a year between classes. Cause when i was a 1st year in Feb 02( I started school 1st)(then work in June 02) They started another class that sept if i remember correctly.(again that class didn't start work right away). I mean if I pass the test, then i take the interview. I don't care how long i have to wait I will get back in and do things the right way. I'm older and wiser than i was back in 02.


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## LGLS

sopranocaponyc said:


> I'm older and wiser than i was back in 02.


Aren't we all... :laughing:


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## drsparky

Not me I'm just wiser, haven't aged a bit.


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## kevgeez

warnerms said:


> Well I had been reviewing Algebra for the last month, but was just too slow to complete the math test in the allotted time: 35 questions/40 minutes. I was just over half done when the guy giving the test gave us the 2 minute warning, *then I started frantically filling in the dots at random*. Like that was really going to work  I'm feeling pretty damn low at the moment, because I did well on the Compass Exam, and went all the way through Calculus in college. I just got stuck on more than one question and did not realize I had burned up so much time.
> 
> My question is this: *Are there any realistic practice test for the Math part of this exam?*


I hope you realized that 2 minutes being in a frenzy is what failed you the test.

I just took my test today, and the Math part was hard!
They had the nerve to only give us 40 minutes for it too. 
I couldn't believe it. 
I only got thru halfway before he stated 2 minutes were left. 
I took my time on each one though. 

The reading portion was so easy it didnt make sense. 
Most of the people finished it with time to spare, yet we had 15 mins longer than the math part?
WTF?


I dont think i have ever felt time pass by so quickly.


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## warnerms

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Wrong because you did not heed the INSTRUCTIONS which werew NOT to guess at unanswered questions, your score is based on what you answered correctly against what you answered incorrectly.


 And exactly where were these instructions? They did not come from the person giving the test.

So KEVGEEZ, were you given any instructions that would have indicated the above remark is actually credible? I sure the hell don't remember any?


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## kevgeez

warnerms said:


> And exactly where were these instructions? They did not come from the person giving the test.
> 
> So KEVGEEZ, were you given any instructions that would have indicated the above remark is actually credible? I sure the hell don't remember any?


Well our tester in Philly is a true asshole.
Through his foul language and general unprofessionalism, he didn't let on what to do exactly. 
I think it is meant to weed out people that would just guess their way thru it.

One of the kids did however ask if we would be penalized for unanswered questions, and The tester told us "i can only tell you what is in these instructions"

Thank god for this thread, or i would have given in to temptation to fill in the rest as time ran out.


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## sopranocaponyc

well when we took the local 3 nyc test. the guy said to answer every ?, That u don't get penalized by a wrong guess etc.


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## Soulstealer0

sopranocaponyc said:


> well when we took the local 3 nyc test. the guy said to answer every ?, That u don't get penalized by a wrong guess etc.



http://www.njatc.org/training/apprenticeship/sample/sample_test.html

Straight from the source.... under reminders for applicants, the total answered corrected gets weighted against the total number of questions, so if you guess at least you have a shot...


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## sopranocaponyc

Also there was no time Limit on this test!


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## Control Freak

sopranocaponyc said:


> so its probably a year between classes. Cause when i was a 1st year in Feb 02( I started school 1st)(then work in June 02) They started another class that sept if i remember correctly.(again that class didn't start work right away). I mean if I pass the test, then i take the interview. I don't care how long i have to wait I will get back in and do things the right way. I'm older and wiser than i was back in 02.


If you're talking about local 3 they aren't accepting any new apprentices.there will not be a new class of TA 1's in september for at least a year.


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## sopranocaponyc

Control Freak said:


> If you're talking about local 3 they aren't accepting any new apprentices.there will not be a new class of TA 1's in september for at least a year.


 
Well I still have to wait for The interview then get my rank. The letter said that work would'nt start till at least Mid Year. They might take you into the program and have you start school in sept then work 6 months later.


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## Control Freak

*apprenticeship*



sopranocaponyc said:


> Well I still have to wait for The interview then get my rank. The letter said that work would'nt start till at least Mid Year. They might take you into the program and have you start school in sept then work 6 months later.


Maybe.things are tight right now there's a 32 week wait for a job ticket for a journeyman.did u ever try calling the joint board and see if you can take an aptitude test so u can skip ayear or two? What year were you when u dropped out? Maybe u can get back in under ur old contract cause the new ones brutal


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## sopranocaponyc

Control Freak said:


> Maybe.things are tight right now there's a 32 week wait for a job ticket for a journeyman.did u ever try calling the joint board and see if you can take an aptitude test so u can skip ayear or two? What year were you when u dropped out? Maybe u can get back in under ur old contract cause the new ones brutal


I was 1st year work and just starting 2nd year school( I started school in Jan 02, then work in June 02) i didn't drop out I had problems back then and resigned( failed a drug test) and under their 0 tolerance u had to go to meetings every Friday. go to an outpatient program( at your expense) show prof of full time work for at least a year. then after year re-apply and they would let u know if you got back in. I tried it for 3 months and didn't know any better and left when i shouldv'e stayed.


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## sopranocaponyc

Control Freak said:


> Maybe.things are tight right now there's a 32 week wait for a job ticket for a journeyman.did u ever try calling the joint board and see if you can take an aptitude test so u can skip ayear or two? What year were you when u dropped out? Maybe u can get back in under ur old contract cause the new ones brutal


 
Also I don't care if the wait is 1-2 years as long as i know I'm on the list i'd do something till then.


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## Control Freak

*apprenticeship*



sopranocaponyc said:


> Also I don't care if the wait is 1-2 years as long as i know I'm on the list i'd do something till then.


Tough it out then.hopefully you get a second shot.it would be nice to see a kid like u get in and get a 2nd shot who really wants to get in and actually be anb asset to us


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## sopranocaponyc

Control Freak said:


> Tough it out then.hopefully you get a second shot.it would be nice to see a kid like u get in and get a 2nd shot who really wants to get in and actually be anb asset to us


i feel the same way and with me being in the program I would have a slight edge as far as work cause i know what to expect. I had no idea what to expect when i started 1st time around! as far as school I still have all my books and Notes from 1st year so that would help. I pray every day that I did enough to get back in. I'm not the best test taker. But studied for the last month before the test. Although I wish i spent a little more time on the math. We'll See.


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## Dan from Philly

Soulstealer0 said:


> http://www.njatc.org/training/apprenticeship/sample/sample_test.html
> 
> Straight from the source.... under reminders for applicants, the total answered corrected gets weighted against the total number of questions, so if you guess at least you have a shot...


Of coarse. I dont understand how it could be otherwise in this situation. He shouldnt have spent all that time on 1 or 2 but at the end how would filling in the remainder as guesses hurt? Maybe a test like the SATs where they penalize no answer half of what they do for a wrong answer. But no penalty for an unanswered question? Reductio ad absurdum. If that were true then you can simply answer 2 questions you are completely sure of, leave the rest blank, and have a perfect score. 

While I answered all the questions Id be lying if I said I thought it was easy. I havent worked these kinds of math problems since my first year at Temple in 98- a freshener course in Algebra and precalc. The toughest Q's were reducing polynomials and solving for variables (reorder an equation for one variable [m=etc...]). Basic algebra, sure, and maybe not a formula to remember but definitely a procedure to it that I havent exactly done since 98 or 99 though Ive had a lot of other math since. Here's one of the type of question I was struggling to remember how to solve (this is not the actual question its just made up from my head!)

[2] is squared or cubed [3] 

......(12x[2] - yzx)............. (2x[-3] + x[2])
---------------------- = ----------------------
(5xy[3] + 16) (2y - -1)... (3yz[-2] - 4) (4z + 36)

Solve for X =

Then of coarse the answer was something like X = 64yz + y[3] - z[2] - blah blah 

Im just unsure of how they score. The math part was 33 questions. The reading 36. Im confident I got every reading comp question correct. But do they score as a whole or separately? If separately then is 70% passing or 80%? That gives you a difference in headroom of 9 questions wrogn at the most or 6. If they grade them together than that doubles. Im thinking I got 5 wrong on the math at max but Id be lying if I said I wasnt concerned.


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## Soulstealer0

Dan from Philly said:


> Of coarse. I dont understand how it could be otherwise in this situation. He shouldnt have spent all that time on 1 or 2 but at the end how would filling in the remainder as guesses hurt? Maybe a test like the SATs where they penalize no answer half of what they do for a wrong answer. But no penalty for an unanswered question? Reductio ad absurdum. If that were true then you can simply answer 2 questions you are completely sure of, leave the rest blank, and have a perfect score.
> 
> While I answered all the questions Id be lying if I said I thought it was easy. I havent worked these kinds of math problems since my first year at Temple in 98- a freshener course in Algebra and precalc. The toughest Q's were reducing polynomials and solving for variables (reorder an equation for one variable [m=etc...]). Basic algebra, sure, and maybe not a formula to remember but definitely a procedure to it that I havent exactly done since 98 or 99 though Ive had a lot of other math since. Here's one of the type of question I was struggling to remember how to solve (this is not the actual question its just made up from my head!)
> 
> [2] is squared or cubed [3]
> 
> ......(12x[2] - yzx)............. (2x[-3] + x[2])
> ---------------------- = ----------------------
> (5xy[3] + 16) (2y - -1)... (3yz[-2] - 4) (4z + 36)
> 
> Solve for X =
> 
> Then of coarse the answer was something like X = 64yz + y[3] - z[2] - blah blah
> 
> Im just unsure of how they score. The math part was 33 questions. The reading 36. Im confident I got every reading comp question correct. But do they score as a whole or separately? If separately then is 70% passing or 80%? That gives you a difference in headroom of 9 questions wrogn at the most or 6. If they grade them together than that doubles. Im thinking I got 5 wrong on the math at max but Id be lying if I said I wasnt concerned.


So are they fill in the blank/multiple choice? or a combination of both?


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## Dan from Philly

Multiple choice. Remember in school the answer sheet with all the circles you had to fill in with a pencil. The reading part was four, one page essays on random topics which you read and answered 8 or 10 questions from. Easy. I had time when I was done to go back and do almost that whole test again to double-check my answers.

What I remember with the math is sequences- a few 2nd order sequences, finding a function to match either a column of X and Y values or just a graph, nearly half of it was just giving you small and large equations with a variable and asking you to solve for a given value, A few were scenarios- Jack his this many eggs which spoil at this rate and theres twice as many carrots with 3 times as many grams of salt- blah blah and you have to either choose the equivalent equation or solve. I thought it was easy but for solving for variables and balancing equations because that is formulaic even if theres no formula and Im 28 and havent done similr problems in a decade so I just plain forgot the MO. That was maybe 5 Q's?


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## Soulstealer0

Dan from Philly said:


> Multiple choice. Remember in school the answer sheet with all the circles you had to fill in with a pencil. The reading part was four, one page essays on random topics which you read and answered 8 or 10 questions from. Easy. I had time when I was done to go back and do almost that whole test again to double-check my answers.
> 
> What I remember with the math is sequences- a few 2nd order sequences, finding a function to match either a column of X and Y values or just a graph, nearly half of it was just giving you small and large equations with a variable and asking you to solve for a given value, A few were scenarios- Jack his this many eggs which spoil at this rate and theres twice as many carrots with 3 times as many grams of salt- blah blah and you have to either choose the equivalent equation or solve. I thought it was easy but for solving for variables and balancing equations because that is formulaic even if theres no formula and Im 28 and havent done similr problems in a decade so I just plain forgot the MO. That was maybe 5 Q's?


Cool thanks for the info man.... I should slam this out of the park, going back to school (after 8 years) for Computer science taking a summer algebra/trig class as we speak :thumbsup:


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## Bendezium

Dan from Philly said:


> [2] is squared or cubed [3]
> 
> ......(12x[2] - yzx)............. (2x[-3] + x[2])
> ---------------------- = ----------------------
> (5xy[3] + 16) (2y - -1)... (3yz[-2] - 4) (4z + 36)
> 
> Solve for X =
> 
> Then of coarse the answer was something like X = 64yz + y[3] - z[2] - blah blah


I'm completely stunned by this. I destroyed the practice test in this thread:
http://www.electriciantalk.com/f26/ibew-study-manual-2171/
But if I really do see questions like this I'll poop my pants! I've been pretty good at math in school, but never needed to go past Pre-Calc in college, which I took a good 8 years ago. Yikes!


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## Lucky

There are *math practice courses* online. Google the bolded part of this post to find them. Go through them until you can ace all of them FAST. No use being able to do these things slow, if the tests are fast.
Lucky


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## wirediron28

Anyone feel like they bombed the math section n aced the reading...to find out they passed anyway..????


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## Jbowyer24

What score did you need to receive to get an interview?


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## wirediron28

I was stressing the math section the whole time, but I know I couldn't of missed more than one on the reading. A 4th term apprentice buddy told me they look for a 70% between the 2 tests..if that's the case I should be fine..hopefully


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## Jbowyer24

I took the outside lineman test 33 math 36 reading, they score on a scale of 0-9 looking for a 3 to get an interview. I scored a 6/9. Hopefully enough to put me in a decent spot on the list but they wouldn't disclose our rankings.


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## wirediron28

Your out of 48 right?


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## Jbowyer24

351south jersey


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## Jbowyer24

Out of a group of 16 testers, 6 didn't qualify, 4 got a 3, 2 got a 4, 2 got a 5, I got a six and one guy got a 7.


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## papaotis

just for kicks, anyone have a suggested math study for some one who already forgot more than some know?:whistling2::laughing:


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## Jbowyer24

http://library.thinkquest.org/20991/intro.html

Pretty good math study site. I got I off of northeastern apprenticeship training website to study for my aptitude test. It basically walks you through step by step anything you could want to know.


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## Valea

I found taking the ACT Compass test to be the closest available test to the IBEW math assessment. The Compass practice test is available online on the ACT website, or you can potentially take the compass at a community college, for a fee, although I have no idea if colleges in your area offer it. Biggest difference is that you are allowed a calculator in the compass. Prealgebra and algebra are the only sections in the compass that you need to study.


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## Lowvolt7

Hey keep trying it doesn't matter you ave. most young men fail at the trades. And hey it's better than you robbing the lawnguy. I would like to know a book to study myself because I tend to forget some of the later math rules and I would like to practice with my timing. Which all depends on if I passed the test.


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## Lowvolt7

We are timed in California and we are told to answer all question because each wrong answer is -.25.


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## Hellobrian123

Soulstealer0 said:


> http://www.njatc.org/training/apprenticeship/sample/sample_test.html
> 
> Straight from the source.... under reminders for applicants, the total answered corrected gets weighted against the total number of questions, so if you guess at least you have a shot...


Link doesn't work, have anything else?


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