# 480/277



## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

sparky723 said:


> Why put a neutral in a 480/277 panel if 1) you can't get 120 from panel 2) no loads require a neutral


. You're not getting 120 volts from your 480Y/277 v panel , whether you pull a neutral or not . A neutral conductor in a 480/277 v scenario , gives you the 277 V . Without it , it's either single or three phase 480 . Sometimes , if it's strictly a power panel with 480 volt loads , obviously a neutral is not required . It doesn't help the next guy , who may want to run a lighting circuit from that panel , but generally you only get paid to do what is required .


----------



## 2dogs (Feb 7, 2014)

sparky723 said:


> Why put a neutral in a 480/277 panel if
> 1) you can't get 120 from panel
> 2) no loads require a neutral


If it is the service panel, neutrals are required whether they are used or not. The neutrals carry fault current back to the utility the trip the main. In sub panels they are not required as you will pull a ground for this purpose.


----------



## sparky723 (Jul 22, 2008)

drumnut08 said:


> . You're not getting 120 volts from your 480Y/277 v panel , whether you pull a neutral or not . A neutral conductor in a 480/277 v scenario , gives you the 277 V . Without it , it's either single or three phase 480 . Sometimes , if it's strictly a power panel with 480 volt loads , obviously a neutral is not required . It doesn't help the next guy , who may want to run a lighting circuit from that panel , but generally you only get paid to do what is required .


Yea 
I figured it out after I posted...lol
I went ahead and dropped the neutral "for future use".


----------



## sparky723 (Jul 22, 2008)

2dogs said:


> If it is the service panel, neutrals are required whether they are used or not. The neutrals carry fault current back to the utility the trip the main. In sub panels they are not required as you will pull a ground for this purpose.


Nothing is connected to the neutral.


----------



## Fibes (Feb 18, 2010)

sparky723 said:


> Nothing is connected to the neutral.


If it's the service equipment it doesn't matter whether anything is connected to it, it is still required, see 250.24(C)


----------



## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

sparky723 said:


> Nothing is connected to the neutral.


Are you talking about service equipment or sub-panels?

Pete


----------



## sparky723 (Jul 22, 2008)

Pete m. said:


> Are you talking about service equipment or sub-panels? Pete


It's the service


----------



## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

sparky723 said:


> It's the service


Then post #3 gave you the right answer.

Pete


----------



## sparky723 (Jul 22, 2008)

Pete m. said:


> Then post #3 gave you the right answer. Pete


Ok
Since my lights don't use a neutral, (480 and ground) how does the neutral carry anything back when nothing is hooked to I'm about to put my ground in but here's the panel so far


----------



## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

Just going from past practices of the nec, but 480 volt has a height requirement. If you put lights at a lower level, you just might need to make them 277. Correct me if I am wrong, but used this in the past. I don't think you can run just any lights at 480.


----------



## seabee41 (Dec 21, 2010)

If that's your service entrance where is your MBJ?


----------



## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

Is that the breaker from another post of how to make it up- on? Are you a journeyman?


----------



## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

sparky723 said:


> Ok
> Since my lights don't use a neutral, (480 and ground) how does the neutral carry anything back when nothing is hooked to I'm about to put my ground in but here's the panel so far
> 
> View attachment 34960


Black black black phasing is wrong. :whistling2:that's why Texas is the lone star state.. You guys are from another planet.


----------



## 2dogs (Feb 7, 2014)

cl219um said:


> Black black black phasing is wrong. :whistling2:that's why Texas is the lone star state.. You guys are from another planet.


Black,black,black phasing is not against the nec. The white phase tape on a 277v neutral is against the nec.


----------



## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

2dogs said:


> Black,black,black phasing is not against the nec. The white phase tape on a 277v neutral is against the nec.


Good companies use nec recommendations.


----------



## 2dogs (Feb 7, 2014)

cl219um said:


> Good companies use nec recommendations.



I agree, just saying it's not a violation.


----------



## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

2dogs said:


> I agree, just saying it's not a violation.


Minor technicality, voltage drop is a recommendation too.


----------



## sparky723 (Jul 22, 2008)

cl219um said:


> Just going from past practices of the nec, but 480 volt has a height requirement. If you put lights at a lower level, you just might need to make them 277. Correct me if I am wrong, but used this in the past. I don't think you can run just any lights at 480.


What?


----------



## sparky723 (Jul 22, 2008)

cl219um said:


> Is that the breaker from another post of how to make it up- on? Are you a journeyman?


Yes and no


----------



## sparky723 (Jul 22, 2008)

2dogs said:


> Black,black,black phasing is not against the nec. The white phase tape on a 277v neutral is against the nec.


No gray available


----------



## seabee41 (Dec 21, 2010)

sparky723 said:


> No gray available


Might need to get some for that neutral


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

cl219um said:


> Black black black phasing is wrong. :whistling2:that's why Texas is the lone star state.. You guys are from another planet.


And in the processes have a self dependent transmission system.


----------



## sparky723 (Jul 22, 2008)

seabee41 said:


> Might need to get some for that neutral


No inspection
Mainly to identify


----------



## 8V71 (Dec 23, 2011)

So....back to the 480 and ground for your lights. :no:


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

What lights are these? ANy multi tap ballasts present?


----------



## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

Boy...


----------



## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

ponyboy said:


> Boy...


. The wheels already fell off the train , lol !


----------



## sparky723 (Jul 22, 2008)

8V71 said:


> So....back to the 480 and ground for your lights. :no:


 They are baseball field lighting They are pre wired at the factory... The hots off light hit the common and 480 tap They start with A to B Then B to C Then A to C Then start over with A to B This is how the factory guy explained it. I've never done these before.


----------



## Fibes (Feb 18, 2010)

sparky723 said:


> Ok
> Since my lights don't use a neutral, (480 and ground) how does the neutral carry anything back when nothing is hooked to I'm about to put my ground in but here's the panel so far
> 
> View attachment 34960


This is the scariest part of the thread. The service neutral is not just for completing lighting circuits, it is also the fault clearing path to the source through the aforementioned MBJ.


----------



## Fibes (Feb 18, 2010)

cl219um said:


> Black black black phasing is wrong. :whistling2:that's why Texas is the lone star state.. You guys are from another planet.


 


cl219um said:


> Good companies use nec recommendations.


And where is this recommendation in the NEC?



sparky723 said:


> No gray available


No problem, it can be white per the NEC.


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

sparky723 said:


> They are baseball field lighting They are pre wired at the factory... The hots off light hit the common and 480 tap They start with A to B Then B to C Then A to C Then start over with A to B This is how the factory guy explained it. I've never done these before.


Yes, they are connected in Delta. A delta 3 phase load does not need a neutral. However, your panel needs a MBJ. If a fault occurred those light posts could remain energized above ground potential. 277 volts isn't as forgiving as 120. 

Any 120 volt loads in that structure?


----------



## sparky723 (Jul 22, 2008)

meadow said:


> Yes, they are connected in Delta. A delta 3 phase load does not need a neutral. However, your panel needs a MBJ. If a fault occurred those light posts could remain energized above ground potential. 277 volts isn't as forgiving as 120. Any 120 volt loads in that structure?


Yes there is a seperate 120v panel in the building.
My picture showed an incomplete panel as stated
I don't have mbj bushings in.
Is there a way to do it without?
I'm not ashamed to admit I don't do 3 phase often..it's why I ask y'all to help.
I'd rather ask and be right, then not ask and be BOOM


----------



## seabee41 (Dec 21, 2010)

You should of had a MBJ kit with that panel.


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

sparky723 said:


> Yes there is a seperate 120v panel in the building.
> My picture showed an incomplete panel as stated
> I don't have mbj bushings in.
> Is there a way to do it without?
> ...


There is more chance of cardiac arrest then boom in your case. You need to have MBJ, there is absolutely no way around that. Your panel should have come with one. But worse come to worse you can take the neutral wire (which is basically your ground wire if only phase to phase loads are present in that panel) and move it to the ground bar in the panel. Another option would be a jumper wire from the neutral bar to the ground bar sized accordingly. 

Since we are on the subject don't forget to run a ground wire with the circuits out to the poles.


----------



## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

fibes said:


> and where is this recommendation in the nec?
> 
> No problem, it can be white per the nec.


210.5


----------



## sparky723 (Jul 22, 2008)

meadow said:


> There is more chance of cardiac arrest then boom in your case. You need to have MBJ, there is absolutely no way around that. Your panel should have come with one. But worse come to worse you can take the neutral wire (which is basically your ground wire if only phase to phase loads are present in that panel) and move it to the ground bar in the panel. Another option would be a jumper wire from the neutral bar to the ground bar sized accordingly. Since we are on the subject don't forget to run a ground wire with the circuits out to the poles.


No mbj kit in with the panel..all it had was guts, ground bar and a neutral bar.
I have my grounds out to each pole. 
..."sized accordingly" referring to 250.66, right?
I have a #6 ground.


----------



## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

sparky723 said:


> What?


210.6d


----------



## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

I don't know about systems in other areas of the world but, in my area, 277/480 measures 277 to ground and 480 between phases so you need a neutral for any 277 loads.

Carry on.


----------



## Fibes (Feb 18, 2010)

cl219um said:


> 210.5


210.5(C) only pertains to branch circuits where there is more than one voltage system (we didn't know there were two until post#33) and the neutral can be white or gray in this case.


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

sparky723 said:


> No mbj kit in with the panel..all it had was guts, ground bar and a neutral bar.
> I have my grounds out to each pole.
> ..."sized accordingly" referring to 250.66, right?
> I have a #6 ground.


Depends on the size of the service conductors. For a 200amp service yes #6 is ok. What is this one rated?


----------



## seabee41 (Dec 21, 2010)

Mount a lug to the inside of the pan and run your properly size jumper to the neutral bar. If you don't you could be asking for trouble


----------



## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

Fibes said:


> 210.5(C) only pertains to branch circuits where there is more than one voltage system (we didn't know there were two until post#33) and the neutral can be white or gray in this case.


Yeah, cause you don't need convenience receptacles in a building with 480


----------



## sparky723 (Jul 22, 2008)

seabee41 said:


> Mount a lug to the inside of the pan and run your properly size jumper to the neutral bar. If you don't you could be asking for trouble


How about mounting a lug then running the jumper from ground bar through the lug then attached to neutral?


----------



## seabee41 (Dec 21, 2010)

You are connecting the ground bar to the neutral bar via the MBJ. I don't think that is necessary to do it like that


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

sparky723 said:


> How about mounting a lug then running the jumper from ground bar through the lug then attached to neutral?


Don't worry about it. The ground bar is already bonded to the metal can. The neutral is the one on plastic supports. All one needs is to jumper neutral to the ground bar with a #4 copper.


----------



## sparky723 (Jul 22, 2008)

seabee41 said:


> You are connecting the ground bar to the neutral bar via the MBJ. I don't think that is necessary to do it like that


Confused
You said mount lug to, run mbj to neutral bar .
Then I suggested ground through lug to neutral 
Then you said I'm connecting ground bar to neutral via mbj...
But don't do it they way I suggested.
I'm lost...


----------



## sparky723 (Jul 22, 2008)

meadow said:


> Don't worry about it. The ground bar is already bonded to the metal can. The neutral is the one on plastic supports. All one needs is to jumper neutral to the ground bar with a #4 copper.


Ok thanks


----------



## Fibes (Feb 18, 2010)

cl219um said:


> Yeah, cause you don't need convenience receptacles in a building with 480


Yeah, because it is for ball field lighting and the 480 volt panel may not be in a building with any other systems. 

We actually did a baseball field lighting project where the 480 volt panel was in a small metal shed with no other source any where close.

Now let's leave that and say we are dealing with a building with only a 208Y/120 volt system in this building, does 210.5(C) recommend identification in this case?


----------



## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

Fibes said:


> Yeah, because it is for ball field lighting and the 480 volt panel may not be in a building with any other systems.
> 
> We actually did a baseball field lighting project where the 480 volt panel was in a small metal shed with no other source any where close.
> 
> Now let's leave that and say we are dealing with a building with only a 208Y/120 volt system in this building, does 210.5(C) recommend identification in this case?


I am pretty set on identification of ungrounded wires. It's pretty obvious. Seems to work for me. That way the next guy doesn't go and wire receptacles at 277 and get smoked.


----------



## seabee41 (Dec 21, 2010)

What meadow said


----------



## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

When I was an apprentice, I walked up to a panel with a high leg and wired a temp panel up to it. Smoked every other gfi fed out of the temporary. If someone would have done it right and taped b phase orange it would have saved me time and money. Why leave things questionable?


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

cl219um said:


> When I was an apprentice, I walked up to a panel with a high leg and wired a temp panel up to it. Smoked every other gfi fed out of the temporary. If someone would have done it right and taped b phase orange it would have saved me time and money. Why leave things questionable?


Moral of the story: test before moving forward. Even where things are labeled right screw ups exist. Youd be surprised at the occasional EGC or neutral being used as a hot. 

Megger you circuits to after install for the sake of the next guy adding GFCIs too.


----------



## seabee41 (Dec 21, 2010)

sparky723 said:


> Confused You said mount lug to, run mbj to neutral bar . Then I suggested ground through lug to neutral Then you said I'm connecting ground bar to neutral via mbj... But don't do it they way I suggested. I'm lost...


I meant mount the lug to the inside of the pan. But what meadow said works too


----------



## Fibes (Feb 18, 2010)

cl219um said:


> When I was an apprentice, I walked up to a panel with a high leg and wired a temp panel up to it. Smoked every other gfi fed out of the temporary. If someone would have done it right and taped b phase orange it would have saved me time and money. Why leave things questionable?


Well now you're leaving 210.5(C) and moving into 110.15, 230.6, and most importantly 408.3(E) & (F), these sections "require" identification of the high leg.


----------



## seabee41 (Dec 21, 2010)

sparky723 said:


> Confused You said mount lug to, run mbj to neutral bar . Then I suggested ground through lug to neutral Then you said I'm connecting ground bar to neutral via mbj... But don't do it they way I suggested. I'm lost...


Meant mount it to the inside of the can sorry


----------



## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

Fibes said:


> Well now you're leaving 210.5(C) and moving into 110.15, 230.6, and most importantly 408.3(E) & (F), these sections "require" identification of the high leg.


I will keep doing it the way I have always done it. Pretty sure you haven't changed me by saving a couple bucks and leaving the wires unmarked. It may help the next guy for rotation, troubleshooting....keepin it real.:wallbash::wallbash::wallbash::wallbash::wallbash::wallbash::wallbash::wallbash::wallbash::wallbash:


----------



## Fibes (Feb 18, 2010)

cl219um said:


> I will keep doing it the way I have always done it.


And if it makes you feel good you should, I was just pointing out it is not an accross the board NEC recomendation either.


----------



## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

Fibes said:


> And if it makes you feel good you should, I was just pointing out it is not an accross the board NEC recomendation either.


310.110c if you want to look at. I can ring off articles too. Distinguishing markings...


----------



## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

Must be cabin fever setting in. Got the day off for lack of work and have nothing better to do but argue the code. Snowing out and I am tired of winter. Sorry guys...


----------



## Fibes (Feb 18, 2010)

cl219um said:


> 310.110c if you want to look at. I can ring off articles too. Distinguishing markings...


Yes you can and since we are talking about over 600 volt conductors you have a point. :thumbsup:


----------



## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

Fibes said:


> Yes you can and since we are talking about over 600 volt conductors you have a point. :thumbsup:


whatever.. Both mi and wi tell me to do it my way. Guess I am closed minded on the subject. Btw 310.120 is for all conductors. Not over or under 600 volts. 200.7 talks of the neutral, guess its a gray no pun intended area..


----------



## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

cl219um said:


> When I was an apprentice, I walked up to a panel with a high leg and wired a temp panel up to it. Smoked every other gfi fed out of the temporary.* If someone would have done it right and taped b phase orange it would have saved me time and money. Why leave things questionable?*


:laughing: :jester: :laughing: 

If someone would have simply use a voltage tester, it would have saved time and money. You KNOW you were 100% at fault here and shouldn't have been doing the work.


And it wasn't wasted time and money if you learned the *right* lesson. :thumbup:


----------



## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

I only read the first two pages of this thread.

So did anyone figure out for sure if this guy ran a grounded conductor to his service disconnect panel or not?


----------



## seabee41 (Dec 21, 2010)

Looks like he has it in the pic that he posted


----------



## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

What feeds this panel?

If it's fed from a meter-main that already has a bonding jumper, then installing another one is a violation. There can be only one. 

If it is fed from a meter base, then you'd need to bond the neutral in the panel.


----------



## sparky723 (Jul 22, 2008)

I'm done.
Lights work great.
However, I don't think I ever mentioned the six separate light poles are controlled by individual toggle switches via contactors, of course.
The contactors are very loud. 
The box they are in is metal. The building that the box/panel are in is all metal. I'm sure this has something to do with it, but they make the whole contactor box vibrate.
Normal or ??


----------



## Chrisibew440 (Sep 13, 2013)

Fibes said:


> And where is this recommendation in the NEC?
> 
> No problem, it can be white per the NEC.


I was wondering when someone was gonna speak up. A neutral can be white or grayish in color.


----------



## sparky723 (Jul 22, 2008)

Anybody have an idea on those contactors?


----------



## Pharon (Jan 20, 2014)

The contactors are buzzing because you used white tape instead of gray on that neutral.

Seriously though, they should not be making any noise.


----------



## sparky723 (Jul 22, 2008)

Pharon said:


> The contactors are buzzing because you used white tape instead of gray on that neutral. Seriously though, they should not be making any noise.


Lol..I'm paying hell for that white tape.

I didn't think they sound be...any idea why they are? 
Could it be because of the metal can/building?
I'd really like to know so that i can fix it.


----------



## 8V71 (Dec 23, 2011)

sparky723 said:


> Lol..I'm paying hell for that white tape.
> 
> I didn't think they sound be...any idea why they are?
> Could it be because of the metal can/building?
> I'd really like to know so that i can fix it.


Are you giving the coil the correct voltage that it's rated for?


----------



## sparky723 (Jul 22, 2008)

8V71 said:


> Are you giving the coil the correct voltage that it's rated for?


Yes
It's a 120v coil that is being fed from the 120v panel in the same building
It pulled the contactors in for all 6 light poles.
I'll energize them again w/o pole power and see if I can isolate the problem.


----------



## Pharon (Jan 20, 2014)

This thread might help:

http://www.electriciantalk.com/f2/lighting-contactors-buzz-3696/


----------



## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

sparky723 said:


> Ok
> Since my lights don't use a neutral, (480 and ground) how does the neutral carry anything back when nothing is hooked to I'm about to put my ground in but here's the panel so far
> 
> View attachment 34960


My favorite part is the LB that stubs into the panel with the oblong opening. Someone get careless with the holesaw perhaps? "Hey, does this need a box adapter, short nipple and male adapter, or maybe some duct tape?" "Meh, it'll be alright". :laughing:


----------



## Ty the electric guy (Feb 16, 2014)

I recently had some contactors chattering. I had installed them in metal cans with self tapping screws. The metal shards from the screws got between the contactor coils and wouldn't allow them to close properly. I took the contactors apart and cleaned them, fixed the problem.


----------



## sparky723 (Jul 22, 2008)

Going_Commando said:


> My favorite part is the LB that stubs into the panel with the oblong opening. Someone get careless with the holesaw perhaps? "Hey, does this need a box adapter, short nipple and male adapter, or maybe some duct tape?" "Meh, it'll be alright". :laughing:


It's easy to sit at the computer or on your mobile phone and criticize someone else's work.
Yes, that is an LB with a short nipple. Both are legal to use. As far as that oblong hole goes, I measured 3 times for that hole center. However, when I punched it out, the weight of the can sitting on the nipple caused it to go down. Most people would have left this, but call me anal or a perfectionist, I had to pull the can off and fix the hole to where the nipple would be straight. End result? Nipple and LB are straight outside and although you can't see it, the nipple is straight inside. I know that the locknuts are square on the nipple and not screwed on where one side hits the can before the other.
I appreciate all of the help I've been given regarding this project, however I don't like the group of guys who troll posts putting in their 2 cents.


----------



## seabee41 (Dec 21, 2010)

How did the MBJ work out?


----------



## seabee41 (Dec 21, 2010)

.Also does that LB/short nipple go out to the meter?


----------



## sparky723 (Jul 22, 2008)

seabee41 said:


> How did the MBJ work out?


Mbj worked out good. I have #4 from bonded ground bar to neutral bar.
I also changed my ground to a #4.

The LB goes out to a fused disconnect.


----------



## seabee41 (Dec 21, 2010)

sparky723 said:


> Mbj worked out good. I have #4 from bonded ground bar to neutral bar. I also changed my ground to a #4. The LB goes out to a fused disconnect.


Is that a separate service so before the disco is a meter right ?


----------



## seabee41 (Dec 21, 2010)

sparky723 said:


> Mbj worked out good. I have #4 from bonded ground bar to neutral bar. I also changed my ground to a #4. The LB goes out to a fused disconnect.


Is that on it's own service?


----------



## Pharon (Jan 20, 2014)

If the fused disconnect is your service disconnecting means, the neutral and ground should be bonded there and nowhere else. The neutral and ground conductors should be separated in the 480V panel.


----------



## sparky723 (Jul 22, 2008)

seabee41 said:


> Is that on it's own service?


Yes separate service
In order:
Pole to meter
Meter to disconnect
Disconnect to MB panel
Panel to contactors
Contactors to switches


----------



## seabee41 (Dec 21, 2010)

sparky723 said:


> Yes separate service In order: Pole to meter Meter to disconnect Disconnect to MB panel Panel to contactors Contactors to switches


Then you need to do your MBJ in the disco


----------



## Fibes (Feb 18, 2010)

sparky723 said:


> Yes separate service
> In order:
> Pole to meter
> Meter to disconnect


 Then your GEC connection and MBJ should be in one of those two enclosures and you will need to remove the jumper in the what is now a sub-panel.



sparky723 said:


> Disconnect to MB panel
> Panel to contactors
> Contactors to switches


 So you didn't need the neutral in the panel after all, it could have stopped in the disconnect.


----------



## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

sparky723 said:


> It's easy to sit at the computer or on your mobile phone and criticize someone else's work.
> .



Of course it is. That's why we do it for free :thumbup:


----------



## sparky723 (Jul 22, 2008)

Fibes said:


> Then your GEC connection and MBJ should be in one of those two enclosures and you will need to remove the jumper in the what is now a sub-panel. So you didn't need the neutral in the panel after all, it could have stopped in the disconnect.


I have my GEC in meter, in disco and in panel (obviously).
I have the mbj from bonded ground bar to neutral bar.


----------



## seabee41 (Dec 21, 2010)

Bond your neutral and and ground in your first disconnect. Take the one off in the panel.


----------



## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

seabee41 said:


> Bond your neutral and and ground in your first disconnect. Take the one off in the panel.


^^^^^^^
This!:thumbsup:


----------



## Pharon (Jan 20, 2014)

....


micromind said:


> What feeds this panel?
> 
> If it's fed from a meter-main that already has a bonding jumper, then installing another one is a violation. There can be only one.
> 
> If it is fed from a meter base, then you'd need to bond the neutral in the panel.





Pharon said:


> If the fused disconnect is your service disconnecting means, the neutral and ground should be bonded there and nowhere else. The neutral and ground conductors should be separated in the 480V panel.





seabee41 said:


> Then you need to do your MBJ in the disco





Fibes said:


> Then your GEC connection and MBJ should be in one of those two enclosures and you will need to remove the jumper in the what is now a sub-panel.
> 
> So you didn't need the neutral in the panel after all, it could have stopped in the disconnect.





seabee41 said:


> Bond your neutral and and ground in your first disconnect. Take the one off in the panel.





A Little Short said:


> ^^^^^^^
> This!:thumbsup:


----------



## sparky723 (Jul 22, 2008)

Pharon said:


> ....


If mbj is connected from ground to neutral in panel, is that not the same as connecting them in the disconnect?


----------



## seabee41 (Dec 21, 2010)

sparky723 said:


> If mbj is connected from ground to neutral in panel, is that not the same as connecting them in the disconnect?


NEC wants it at the first disco. Don't have my book on me to quote the number


----------



## sparky723 (Jul 22, 2008)

seabee41 said:


> NEC wants it at the first disco. Don't have my book on me to quote the number


Gotcha
But TECHNICALLY it's the same thing.
Only difference is removing the bonding jumper off the ground bar and extending it back to a lug on back of the disconnect.


----------



## Mate (Sep 5, 2009)

Is there someone to supervise you??? You seem to need some....


----------



## sparky723 (Jul 22, 2008)

Mate said:


> Is there someone to supervise you??? You seem to need some....


No I don't
Ive told you I don't do 3 phase as often as 1 phase.
Everyone has to do a large 3 phase job the first time. Why people feel the need to be a jacka$$ is beyond me.
I'm only asking if this is serves the same purpose wether connected in the disconnect or the panel.
I knew I'd risk ridicule from certain guys, but felt it was worth it to have a safe install.
I don't know why it's not AS safe being connected via mbj in the panel as it is in the disconnect.


----------



## Mate (Sep 5, 2009)

You should not be working alone. It's not about being a jacka$$, it's about telling you the truth.If you can't figure out a simple install like that, it's because your not ready to be on your own.


----------



## seabee41 (Dec 21, 2010)

I agree you should get the proper help on this.


----------



## Pharon (Jan 20, 2014)

sparky723 said:


> Gotcha
> But TECHNICALLY it's the same thing.
> Only difference is removing the bonding jumper off the ground bar and extending it back to a lug on back of the disconnect.


No, it's not the same thing. One meets Code, and the other does not.



> *NEC 250.30(A)(1)* *System Bonding Jumper.* An unspliced system bonding jumper shall comply with 250.28(A) through (D). *This connection shall be made at any single point on the separately derived system from the source to the first system disconnecting means or overcurrent device*, or it shall be made at the source of a separately derived system that has no disconnecting means or overcurrent devices, in accordance with 250.30(A)(1)(a) or (b). The system bonding jumper shall remain within the enclosure where it originates. If the source is located outside the building or structure supplied, a system bonding jumper shall be installed at the grounding electrode connection in compliance with 250.30(C).


----------



## sparky723 (Jul 22, 2008)

Mate said:


> You should not be working alone. It's not about being a jacka$$, it's about telling you the truth.If you can't figure out a simple install like that, it's because your not ready to be on your own.


 Simple because you've done a hundred of them? Truth? I never said it wasn't the truth-just that it technically doesn't make it unsafe as to wether I put the mbj in panel or disconnect. Basically I want to know why NEC wants it only there instead of either or. My business is relativity new yes, my city does not rewire anything to get inspected, but do I try to make sure all is right? Yes, of course. Will leaving the mbj from ground to neutral work and be as safe as landing both on lugs attached to back of disconnect? I think so. It's the same thing. Would it "piss off an inspector" as seebee stated before editing, yes. Honestly, I don't have the room to back through my LB with the mbj from the neutral. There. I said it.


----------



## seabee41 (Dec 21, 2010)

Dude first disco you have a neutral right ? If so take that to the can with a number 4 and be done no problem. When you do a job like this especially with ball field lights it's imperative to get the grounding right. Wouldn't want one of those poles energizing


----------



## seabee41 (Dec 21, 2010)

I'm done giving advice sorry man your gonna get yourself or someone else hurt.


----------



## sparky723 (Jul 22, 2008)

seabee41 said:


> Dude first disco you have a neutral right ? If so take that to the can with a number 4 and be done no problem. When you do a job like this especially with ball field lights it's imperative to get the grounding right. Wouldn't want one of those poles energizing


Seebee,
I appreciate the help. 
However, I do not have a neutral in my disconnect outside.


----------



## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

sparky723 said:


> It's easy to sit at the computer or on your mobile phone and criticize someone else's work.
> Yes, that is an LB with a short nipple. Both are legal to use. As far as that oblong hole goes, I measured 3 times for that hole center. However, when I punched it out, the weight of the can sitting on the nipple caused it to go down. Most people would have left this, but call me anal or a perfectionist, I had to pull the can off and fix the hole to where the nipple would be straight. End result? Nipple and LB are straight outside and although you can't see it, the nipple is straight inside. I know that the locknuts are square on the nipple and not screwed on where one side hits the can before the other.
> I appreciate all of the help I've been given regarding this project, however I don't like the group of guys who troll posts putting in their 2 cents.


Inspector should not let that hole go.especially on 480. It's like a eccentric ko that was punched to big. Add some donuts and a bondbushing if its metal conduit. If its PVC just the donuts and plastic bushing.


----------



## seabee41 (Dec 21, 2010)

Where did you get the one in the picture? Neutral that is


----------



## ren79eg (May 30, 2010)

sparky723 said:


> Seebee,
> I appreciate the help.
> However, I do not have a neutral in my disconnect outside.


Where does this white taped neutral come from then?


----------



## seabee41 (Dec 21, 2010)

Hope you have a service rated disco


----------



## ren79eg (May 30, 2010)

Copycat


----------



## seabee41 (Dec 21, 2010)

ren79eg said:


> Copycat


Love the edit feature


----------



## sparky723 (Jul 22, 2008)

cl219um said:


> Inspector should not let that hole go.especially on 480. It's like a eccentric ko that was punched to big. Add some donuts and a bondbushing if its metal conduit. If its PVC just the donuts and plastic bushing.


Plastic bushing was out in place at initial install.


----------



## sparky723 (Jul 22, 2008)

ren79eg said:


> Where does this white taped neutral come from then?


Meter


----------



## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

sparky723 said:


> Plastic bushing was out in place at initial install.


Huh?


----------



## seabee41 (Dec 21, 2010)

So you fed the neutral through the disco? That would not fly up here


----------



## sparky723 (Jul 22, 2008)

cl219um said:


> Huh?


Put, not out


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

sparky723 said:


> Yes separate service
> In order:
> Pole to meter
> Meter to disconnect
> ...


Where are you getting your 120v from to pull the contactors in?


----------



## seabee41 (Dec 21, 2010)

Can you take a pic of the disconnect for us ?


----------



## sparky723 (Jul 22, 2008)

IslandGuy said:


> Where are you getting your 120v from to pull the contactors in?


Seperate panel


----------



## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

cl219um said:


> Inspector should not let that hole go.especially on 480. It's like a eccentric ko that was punched to big. Add some donuts and a bondbushing if its metal conduit. If its PVC just the donuts and plastic bushing.


It's in Texas. Just gob on the duct seal. Can't see it from my house. So neutral just passes through the first disconnect you are saying? Inspectors around here won't let you turn a service on with an inspection sticker on the meter socket. Poco wouldn't even show up.


----------



## sparky723 (Jul 22, 2008)

seabee41 said:


> Can you take a pic of the disconnect for us ?


It's gonna be next week
Whatcha looking for?


----------



## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

Now I am really confused. I thought you installed this panel. I was talking of that oval hole that panel is fed through and using reducing washers to hide the big ugly mistake to level your lb or whatever you did...


----------



## seabee41 (Dec 21, 2010)

Never seen a neutral pulled through a service rated disco


----------



## Mate (Sep 5, 2009)

cl219um said:


> Now I am really confused. I thought you installed this panel. I was talking of that oval hole that panel is fed through and using reducing washers to hide the big ugly mistake to level your lb or whatever you did...


I don't think you are the one that is confuse in that thread..!


----------



## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

Maybe the poco had a three phase delta and sparks put a neutral to the disco cause you guys told him to. It could happen.:blink:


----------



## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

Sorry. I thought I would try to confuse this post a bit more.


----------



## ren79eg (May 30, 2010)

Is this a second service?


----------



## sparky723 (Jul 22, 2008)

ren79eg said:


> Is this a second service?


Second to the building
First 3 phase


----------



## sparky723 (Jul 22, 2008)

cl219um said:


> Maybe the poco had a three phase delta and sparks put a neutral to the disco cause you guys told him to. It could happen.:blink:


Panel never needed a neutral 
Installed later


----------



## sparky723 (Jul 22, 2008)

cl219um said:


> Now I am really confused. I thought you installed this panel. I was talking of that oval hole that panel is fed through and using reducing washers to hide the big ugly mistake to level your lb or whatever you did...


I did install the panel
Ugly hole won't be seen


----------



## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

sparky723 said:


> Panel never needed a neutral
> Installed later


Ok, I'm not going to ridicule you, just try to help.

You mentioned that this was your first (or one of) 3 ph service and you're not familiar with them. Well first, the grounding/bonding is the same for a 3-ph as a single phase, with the exception of maybe the size of conductors for grounding/bonding. Also the type of service you have, ie: delta or wye.

But my point is, the MBJ rule is the same no matter if it's 3-ph or single.

Now could you go step by step on what you have?

Start at the meter.
Do you have a neutral from the POCO?

Is the fused disconnect service rated? Is it the first thing you hit after the meter?
If yes to both these questions then that is your service entrance and where the bonding takes place.

Before I go further, please do as I asked and tell us step by step on what you have and in the exact order you have it connected.
Then I or someone can help you figure out what you need to do.

Since this is a ball field, you really don't want to have your grounding wrong with all the kids (or anyone for that matter) around if something is not right and you have a fault.


----------



## Pharon (Jan 20, 2014)

sparky723 said:


> Seebee, I appreciate the help. However, I do not have a neutral in my disconnect outside.


If there's no neutral in the fused disconnect, where's the other end of the neutral you brought into the panel?


----------



## sparky723 (Jul 22, 2008)

A Little Short said:


> Ok, I'm not going to ridicule you, just try to help. You mentioned that this was your first (or one of) 3 ph service and you're not familiar with them. Well first, the grounding/bonding is the same for a 3-ph as a single phase, with the exception of maybe the size of conductors for grounding/bonding. Also the type of service you have, ie: delta or wye. But my point is, the MBJ rule is the same no matter if it's 3-ph or single. Now could you go step by step on what you have? Start at the meter. Do you have a neutral from the POCO? Is the fused disconnect service rated? Is it the first thing you hit after the meter? If yes to both these questions then that is your service entrance and where the bonding takes place. Before I go further, please do as I asked and tell us step by step on what you have and in the exact order you have it connected. Then I or someone can help you figure out what you need to do. Since this is a ball field, you really don't want to have your grounding wrong with all the kids (or anyone for that matter) around if something is not right and you have a fault.


Ok, will do.
From the poco, it hits my meter then goes to a fused disconnect where only the phases are disconnected.
Then through the LB and into the building through the nipple into the panel.
My ground rod is driven under the meter which is connected to the lug inside the meter (next to the poco provided neutral). Then my ground goes to disconnect where it hits a lug then off a lug through the LB into the panel to the ground bar.
My ground is a #4 the entire way.
From the neutral in the meter it goes straight through the disconnect (which is where I screwed up I'm guessing) and through the LB into the panel and connected to the neutral bar.
I then have a mbj from the ground bar to the neutral bar. 
It sounds like all disagreements and confusion would end if I took mbj from neutral backwards through the LB into the disconnect and landed it on a lug.


----------



## sparky723 (Jul 22, 2008)

sparky723 said:


> Meter


Neutral originates in the meter


----------



## seabee41 (Dec 21, 2010)

You need a service rated disconnect. In said disconnect it will have a neutral buss where you would tie your grounds and take care of your bonding for the grounded conductor


----------



## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

Sounds right. MBJ in 1st Disco.


----------



## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

sparky723 said:


> Neutral originates in the meter


The neutral originates in the POCO transformer.

The NEC requires it to be brought to the service disconnect (generally speaking).

If you have a disconnect on the exterior of the building feeding the panel you have shown then you need an equipment grounding conductor between the disco and the panel.

The main bonding jumper is to be installed at the service disconnect and the grounding electrode conductor(s) will be terminated there as well.

Pete


----------



## seabee41 (Dec 21, 2010)

Then you would leave your neutral at the disconnect and not run it to the panel but as long as the neutral in the disconnect from the meter is bonded to your ground you should be good to go. It sounds like you have a disconnect that is not service rated


----------



## seabee41 (Dec 21, 2010)

Pete m. said:


> The neutral originates in the POCO transformer. The NEC requires it to be brought to the service disconnect (generally speaking). If you have a disconnect on the exterior of the building feeding the panel you have shown then you need an equipment grounding conductor between the disco and the panel. The main bonding jumper is to be installed at the service disconnect and the grounding electrode conductor(s) will be terminated there as well. Pete


What if he uses bonding bushings and Grc or emt ?


----------



## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

seabee41 said:


> What if he uses bonding bushings and Grc or emt ?


That very well could suffice for the EGC between the disco and the panel.

If that is the case no wire type EGC would be required.

Pete


----------



## seabee41 (Dec 21, 2010)

Let me rephrase that shouldn't all the Gec's tie into that first disco?


----------



## sparky723 (Jul 22, 2008)

Pete m. said:


> The neutral originates in the POCO transformer. The NEC requires it to be brought to the service disconnect (generally speaking). If you have a disconnect on the exterior of the building feeding the panel you have shown then you need an equipment grounding conductor between the disco and the panel. The main bonding jumper is to be installed at the service disconnect and the grounding electrode conductor(s) will be terminated there as well. Pete


Yes I know it originates from poco transformer..geez.
I mean on my side. Thought that was clear, sorry
My ground is landed in the disconnect. Thought that was clear too. Sorry again


----------



## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

seabee41 said:


> Let me rephrase that shouldn't all the Gec's tie into that first disco?


Typically the grounding electrode conductors would terminate in the service disconnect but the NEC permits them to attach to any accessible location from the service point neutral up to and including the service disconnect. 250.24(A)(1)

Pete


----------



## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

Pete m. said:


> Typically the grounding electrode conductors would terminate in the service disconnect but the NEC permits them to attach to any accessible location from the service point neutral up to and including the service disconnect. 250.24(A)(1)
> 
> Pete


OP said the GEC was connected in the meter. It doesn't need to also go to the disconnect.

But with that said, he needs to correct the neutral because he just ran it through the disconnect and didn't land it on lugs inside the disconnect.
This is of course if the disco is service rated.

*@ Sparky, does the disconnect have a set of lugs for the neutral?*


----------



## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

sparky723 said:


> Ok, will do.
> From the poco, it hits my meter then goes to a fused disconnect where only the phases are disconnected.
> Then through the LB and into the building through the nipple into the panel.
> My ground rod is driven under the meter which is connected to the lug inside the meter (next to the poco provided neutral). Then my ground goes to disconnect where it hits a lug then off a lug through the LB into the panel to the ground bar.
> ...


Wait....when you say the ground rod is connected to/in the meter, then you say "my ground" goes on to the disc then to the panel. What are you calling "my ground"? If it's the GEC ( the wire from the ground rod) then it needs to stop at the meter. That's where it bonds to the neutral (grounded conductor). 

You're EGC (equipment grounding conductor, not GEC) would start in the disc and run into the panel.

Sounds like you used the lugs in the disc for the GEC instead of for the neutral if I'm reading what you wrote right.


----------



## sparky723 (Jul 22, 2008)

A Little Short said:


> OP said the GEC was connected in the meter. It doesn't need to also go to the disconnect. But with that said, he needs to correct the neutral because he just ran it through the disconnect and didn't land it on lugs inside the disconnect. This is of course if the disco is service rated. @ Sparky, does the disconnect have a set of lugs for the neutral?


There is a pair of small (2-14) lugs in the disconnect. This is where I landed the ground


----------



## Hippie (May 12, 2011)

why are you all trying to tell this guy who obviously has no clue and shouldnt even be doing this work how to bond this abortion? this is very basic stuff anybody that doesnt know how to bond a service needs to keep their paws off it.


----------



## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

sparky723 said:


> There is a pair of small (2-14) lugs in the disconnect. This is where I landed the ground


Didn't you already say the conductor from the ground rod was landed in the meter?

If there is a pair of lugs in the disco, that is for the neutral!

Your wire from the rod needs to stop in the meter, the neutral runs from the meter to one of the lugs in the disco, then continue the neutral from the other lug in the disco to the panel.

You can stop the neutral in the disco if you want since the panel doesn't need one. Either way the EGC starts in the disco and runs to the panel.
The GEC only needs to land in one place.


----------



## 8V71 (Dec 23, 2011)

A Little Short said:


> Is the fused disconnect service rated?


The small size of those lugs brings up more questions. Can you please answer short's service rated question.

1) Also, disconnect amp rating and fused or non-fused?
2) Amp rating of your service?
3) Is your LB and all piping metallic or PVC?

Because of the gouged out hole, I would *strongly* suggest that you run a properly sized equipment ground conductor even if you are using metallic LB and nipples.


----------



## sparky723 (Jul 22, 2008)

8V71 said:


> The small size of those lugs brings up more questions. Can you please answer short's service rated question. 1) Also, disconnect amp rating and fused or non-fused? 2) Amp rating of your service? 3) Is your LB and all piping metallic or PVC? Because of the gouged out hole, I would strongly suggest that you run a properly sized equipment ground conductor even if you are using metallic LB and nipples.


1) disc rating-200A
2) panel rating-225A
3) metallic


----------



## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

I see this post is still on. I could have wired three of these services in all the time expended on explaining to sparks on how to do it. I feel I could explain a DIY er easier. They probably have more listening skills. Stick to the 240 volt stuff sparks. Or work with a licensed Jman


----------



## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

I like statewide licensing requirements myself


----------



## jeffmoss26 (Dec 8, 2011)

Safety and health guy here said there's no such thing as 277...asked him what did he think was in the buss duct? He says '480'


----------



## buddhakii (Jan 13, 2011)

Sparky, please get some help with this. You are going to kill someone if you keep it up. You might want to invest in a handbook with illustrations to help, but please make sure this work is re done properly.


----------



## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

I believe this horse has been sufficiently beaten.

Pete


----------

