# heater in crawl space



## RIVETER

*Heater in crawlspace*

The fact that your own inner self "KNOWS" the type of heater suggested is not appealing to you shows you care about the "RIGHT THING TO DO" and that is a good thing. The only help I can give you is to fall back on the CODE WORDING "APPROVED FOR THE PURPOSE". I have learned from many years in this business that if you try to save the customer a lot of money by giving the lowest price they usually think that that Is what you think you are worth.

A customer will forget the cost of a job long before they will forget a BAD JOB.

RIVETER


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## user5941

Is the heater suitable for a damp location?


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## LJSMITH1

Why not use a heated pipe cable system?

http://www.heatersplus.com/fpc.htm

http://www.chromalox.com/productcat...+Freeze+Protection/product-details.aspx?p=310


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## McClary’s Electrical

te12co2w said:


> The gc wants a baseboard heater in the crawl space to help keep pipes from freezing. I've seen this before and I didn't like it then, still don't. Mice build nests in there and they just get covered with crap. They plan on using fiberglass in the floor joists and foaming the exterior walls. The crawl space is 3' tall by thirty feet long. I'd like to put in one of those utility well house heaters, but they are only 500 watts. and I don't think the air would circulate all that well. I'm just not comfortable with electric heat in a crawl space that no-one will ever check on. Unit heater with a fan? something else? smoke detector? Thanks


Most decent GC's condition the crawl around here. But not using baseboard heat. The heaters are not rated for a damp location. He just needs to add a few pieces of duct.


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## LJSMITH1

mcclary's electrical said:


> Most decent GC's condition the crawl around here. But not using baseboard heat. The heaters are not rated for a damp location. He just needs to add a few pieces of duct.


Why would you want to waste heat energy from a central system in a crawl space? The OP wanted to keep pipes from freezing. So why not address the pipes directly? A lot less energy required and only when needed.:thumbup:


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## McClary’s Electrical

LJSMITH1 said:


> Why would you want to waste heat energy from a central system in a crawl space? The OP wanted to keep pipes from freezing. So why not address the pipes directly? A lot less energy required and only when needed.:thumbup:


just because YOU"VE NEVER seen it,,,,,don't act like you know everything.



I"LL SAY IT AGAIN<<<<<<<MOST GOOD CONTRACTORS CONDITION THE CRAWL,,,,,,,I see it here alot. I went in a crawl that had a homeless guy living in there at night. AGAIN<<<<<< MOST GOOD CONTRACTORS CONDITION THE CRAWL. You wanna hear it again?


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## william1978

LJSMITH1 said:


> Why would you want to waste heat energy from a central system in a crawl space? The OP wanted to keep pipes from freezing. So why not address the pipes directly? A lot less energy required and only when needed.:thumbup:


 There are alot of GC that put those sealed crawl spaces in and they have a few ducts grills in them to keep the crawl the same temp as the house.


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## william1978

mcclary's electrical said:


> You wanna hear it again?


 Yea, I sure would. BTW I love those sealed crawl spaces.:laughing::laughing:


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## Kevin J

I agree with mcclary here on this one. While I don't work on a lot of houses with crawl spaces, the ones I do have conditioned crawls. It does away with the need to have crawl vents, reduces mold and mildew, and, most importantly, it keeps the pipes from freezing. You don't need to keep the same temp. in the crawl as the house, so a few vents will do.


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## crazymurph

The GC wants electric baseboard because it's the cheapest way out for him. Thermostatically controlled heat tape is the right solution, and it is expensive.


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## william1978

crazymurph said:


> The GC wants electric baseboard because it's the cheapest way out for him. Thermostatically controlled heat tape is the right solution, and it is expensive.


 That sounds like most of the GC that I've worked around.


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## s.kelly

just a thought,but to keep pipes from freezing does not require alot of heat in many areas. How about a couple incandescent light bulbs,even if on a thermostat? I just go turn mine on if we are getting a deep freeze for several days. 

Of course I forgot to look if you are in the great white north. that might make my idea impractical.


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## LJSMITH1

mcclary's electrical said:


> just because YOU"VE NEVER seen it,,,,,don't act like you know everything.
> 
> 
> 
> I"LL SAY IT AGAIN<<<<<<<MOST GOOD CONTRACTORS CONDITION THE CRAWL,,,,,,,I see it here alot. I went in a crawl that had a homeless guy living in there at night. AGAIN<<<<<< MOST GOOD CONTRACTORS CONDITION THE CRAWL. You wanna hear it again?


 
What is your problem buddy? I have seen it and I think its a *hack* way to address a "PIPE FREEZING ISSUE". "Good Contractor"? Riiiggght...:no: We are not talking about moisture, mold, or any other issue except PIPE FREEZING...You wanna hear that again!?:laughing:

Open your eyes and read the OP!!:laughing:


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## woodchuck2

Well, i think it would depend on the humidity of the crawl space and what type of heater to use. Some customers want the baseboard heater although as said it will not hold up well and is not meant for wet locations. I have done quite a few hanging heater units and had no issues but there was little humidity too.


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## McClary’s Electrical

LJSMITH1 said:


> What is your problem buddy? I have seen it and I think its a *hack* way to address a "PIPE FREEZING ISSUE". "Good Contractor"? Riiiggght...:no: We are not talking about moisture, mold, or any other issue except PIPE FREEZING...You wanna hear that again!?:laughing:
> 
> Open your eyes and read the OP!!:laughing:


 
I don't have a problem other than you implying a BASEBOARD heater is more efficient than a SEER rated piece of equipment. YOUR idea is the one that is wasteful. And I still stand by my statement. A Good contractor will condition the crawl, it's a stement,,,,,,NOT saying it's the answer to his question. OPEN YOUR EYES and read my "statement".


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## LJSMITH1

mcclary's electrical said:


> I don't have a problem other than you implying a BASEBOARD heater is more efficient than a SEER rated piece of equipment. YOUR idea is the one that is wasteful. And I still stand by my statement. A Good contractor will condition the crawl, it's a stement,,,,,,NOT saying it's the answer to his question. OPEN YOUR EYES and read my "statement".


I never said or implied anything about a baseboard heater. Read my posts in this thread. The OP was asking if using a baseboard heater in a crawlspace would be a good solution to eliminate *freezing pipes*. No other reason was given. What don't you understand? You are reading into this WAYYY too much. An electric or hydronic baseboard heater would be MUCH more energy consuming than the small wattages required by thermostatically controlled, pipe heating tape. That's a fact.

Now, if controlling moisture was a primary concern, conditioning the crawlspace is the best plan - HOWEVER there are other things that need to be done as well, such as providing a proper moisture barrier on the ground, proper insulation, and venting requirements. Don't care or believe me? Read this...

http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/reports/rr-0401-conditioned-crawl-space-construction-performance-and-codes/view?searchterm=crawl%20space

I have seen HACK work with providing conditioned air to crawlspaces with floors insulated, no moisture barrier installed over the dirt, or just a random tap off branch ductwork not correctly sized for the space.

Hope that clarifies things for you.:thumbsup:


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## danickstr

The link seems to be in favor of conditioned crawlspaces with minimal vented air supplied....


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## kwired

LJSMITH1 said:


> Why would you want to waste heat energy from a central system in a crawl space? The OP wanted to keep pipes from freezing. So why not address the pipes directly? A lot less energy required and only when needed.:thumbup:


If crawl space is below the living space where do you think the heat loss is going to go? Most likely the majority of the heat will rise to the living space so it is not really lost. 

OTOH if the crawl space is not sealed or insulated very well that alone will make a big difference in whether additional heat is needed.


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## electricmanscott

mcclary's electrical said:


> just because YOU"VE NEVER seen it,,,,,don't act like you know everything.
> 
> 
> 
> I"LL SAY IT AGAIN<<<<<<<MOST GOOD CONTRACTORS CONDITION THE CRAWL,,,,,,,I see it here alot. I went in a crawl that had a homeless guy living in there at night. AGAIN<<<<<< MOST GOOD CONTRACTORS CONDITION THE CRAWL. You wanna hear it again?


What's it like to be such an angry person always ready to fly off the handle?


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## jwjrw

william1978 said:


> Yea, I sure would. BTW I love those sealed crawl spaces.:laughing::laughing:


 

Yea if you have never been in a conditioned crawl you don't know what you are missing. The last one I was in had a thick cover all over and up the walls to just short of the floor joists. It was almost like padding. They all have humidifiers and sump pumps if needed and of course it was cool in there and 90 deg outside. That was the first time I didn't mind being under a house.:laughing:


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## wildleg

how are snakes, spiders, mice, rats, possums, *****, and the neighbor's cat supposed to live in the crawl space if you got heat and air conditioning and all that other new fangled stuff in there ?


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## BuzzKill

If they do one of those premo insulation jobs in the crawl, I'd think a heater is overkill, of course this is WY.


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## LJSMITH1

kwired said:


> If crawl space is below the living space where do you think the heat loss is going to go? Most likely the majority of the heat will rise to the living space so it is not really lost.
> 
> OTOH if the crawl space is not sealed or insulated very well that alone will make a big difference in whether additional heat is needed.


There are multiple factors that need to play into your scenario in order for that to be true. In the case of a fully insulated and rat-slabbed floor crawlspace, it might make sense to heat the entire space as there would be very little heat needed to maintain the ambient above 35F. However, in many areas, crawlspaces are not fully insulated (i.e. floor, no slab, or stub walls). Plus, any insulation between the floor joists would certainly inhibit heat conduction through to the living space.

It is in those cases that the amount of energy used to heat the pipes with tape, is much less than that needed to heat the entire crawlspace. Not to mention safer and cheaper. 

This is what I was suggesting to the OP as he was considering a portable heater to prevent freezing pipes......:no:


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## kwired

LJSMITH1 said:


> There are multiple factors that need to play into your scenario in order for that to be true. In the case of a fully insulated and rat-slabbed floor crawlspace, it might make sense to heat the entire space as there would be very little heat needed to maintain the ambient above 35F. However, in many areas, crawlspaces are not fully insulated (i.e. floor, no slab, or stub walls). Plus, any insulation between the floor joists would certainly inhibit heat conduction through to the living space.
> 
> It is in those cases that the amount of energy used to heat the pipes with tape, is much less than that needed to heat the entire crawlspace. Not to mention safer and cheaper.
> 
> This is what I was suggesting to the OP as he was considering a portable heater to prevent freezing pipes......:no:


I think it is more important to seal walls to stop infiltration of cold air and add insulation to the walls. you are not going to lose heat to the floor it is going to rise. If the walls are sealed well enough the floor (of the crawlspace) is not going to freeze except maybe near the walls depending on other conditions. If you have insulation in floor joists above you will have less heat loss in the space but you will still have heat loss. If you are adding heat to the space and there is minimal loss in the walls the heat is not really wasted it rises to the living space above, how fast depends on the R value of the floor. The same reason we have more insulation in attics than we do in walls - heat rises. With walls minimizing infiltration is more important than R value.

If forced air heating system in the house a small vent to the crawl space is probably best option.


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## william1978

jwjrw said:


> Yea if you have never been in a conditioned crawl you don't know what you are missing. The last one I was in had a thick cover all over and up the walls to just short of the floor joists. It was almost like padding. They all have humidifiers and sump pumps if needed and of course it was cool in there and 90 deg outside. That was the first time I didn't mind being under a house.:laughing:


 I would love being able to crawl on my belly under ducts and whatever else is in the way. Carry a flash light with you and it will light it up very well because of all of the white every where.:thumbsup:


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## Rudeboy

pipes freezing.
:laughing::laughing::laughing:


Yeah, that happens.
:whistling2:


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## william1978

wildleg said:


> how are snakes, spiders, mice, rats, possums, *****, and the neighbor's cat supposed to live in the crawl space if you got heat and air conditioning and all that other new fangled stuff in there ?


 :laughing: You forgot one. Peter D.:thumbsup:


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## LJSMITH1

kwired said:


> I think it is more important to seal walls to stop infiltration of cold air and add insulation to the walls. you are not going to lose heat to the floor it is going to rise. If the walls are sealed well enough the floor (of the crawlspace) is not going to freeze except maybe near the walls depending on other conditions. If you have insulation in floor joists above you will have less heat loss in the space but you will still have heat loss. If you are adding heat to the space and there is minimal loss in the walls the heat is not really wasted it rises to the living space above, how fast depends on the R value of the floor. The same reason we have more insulation in attics than we do in walls - heat rises. With walls minimizing infiltration is more important than R value.
> 
> If forced air heating system in the house a small vent to the crawl space is probably best option.


I don't disagree with you, I just think the OP was looking for a cheap and easy way to keep pipes from freezing. Without knowing the particulars of the crawl space, we can debate this until we are blue in the face.:icon_wink:


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## kwired

LJSMITH1 said:


> I don't disagree with you, I just think the OP was looking for a cheap and easy way to keep pipes from freezing. Without knowing the particulars of the crawl space, we can debate this until we are blue in the face.:icon_wink:


cheap = drain the water when it is cold outside

actually letting water trickle from a faucet will keep from freezing - letting hot water trickle can be a little costly however.


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## McClary’s Electrical

kwired said:


> cheap = drain the water when it is cold outside
> 
> actually letting water trickle from a faucet will keep from freezing - letting hot water trickle can be a little costly however.


 

Hot water freezes faster than cold water.


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## Bob Badger

mcclary's electrical said:


> Hot water freezes faster than cold water.


Ah no. :no:

Given the same ambient temp, hotter water will loose heat faster than colder water but the hotter water will not become ice before the colder water.


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## jwjrw

william1978 said:


> I would love being able to crawl on my belly under ducts and whatever else is in the way. Carry a flash light with you and it will light it up very well because of all of the white every where.:thumbsup:


 

Yep and you don't even have to wear kneepads. Whatever that white stuff is it is like a cushion on your knees. I hate crawl spaces that are not conditioned.


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## william1978

jwjrw said:


> Yep and you don't even have to wear kneepads. Whatever that white stuff is it is like a cushion on your knees. I hate crawl spaces that are not conditioned.


 We have defiantly been spoiled with the new seal crawl spaces.:thumbsup:


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## Bob Badger

LJSMITH1 said:


> I don't disagree with you, I just think the OP was looking for a cheap and easy way to keep pipes from freezing. Without knowing the particulars of the crawl space, we can debate this until we are blue in the face.:icon_wink:


I will be bold and say LJ is correct and the most energy efficient way of keeping the pipes from freezing is to only apply heat to the pipes and not the entire space.

Trace the pipes with self regulating heat trace, put a temperature cut out on it and insulate the pipes. It may not be the cheapest going in but it will use the least power of any other electrical method of heating the entire space.


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## LJSMITH1

mcclary's electrical said:


> Hot water freezes faster than cold water.


 
That is true - BUT - it only happens under very specific circumstances. It is called the "Mpemba Effect". Here is a 1998 University of California Physics paper describing the effect. Very Interesting.

http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/General/hot_water.html

Unfortunately, I don't believe this even matters when it comes to pipes freezing, because probably nobody is paying attention when it happens.:001_huh:


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## Bob Badger

LJSMITH1 said:


> That is true - BUT - it only happens under very specific circumstances. It is called the "Mpemba Effect". Here is a 1998 University of California Physics paper describing the effect. Very Interesting.
> 
> http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/General/hot_water.html
> 
> Unfortunately, I don't believe this even matters when it comes to pipes freezing, because probably nobody is paying attention when it happens.:001_huh:


OK mcclary's I have learned that in some specific circumstances that do not seem to apply to water contained in a pipe hot water could freeze faster than cold.


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## Voltech

mcclary's electrical said:


> I don't have a problem other than you implying a BASEBOARD heater is more efficient than a SEER rated piece of equipment. YOUR idea is the one that is wasteful. And I still stand by my statement. A Good contractor will condition the crawl, it's a stement,,,,,,NOT saying it's the answer to his question. OPEN YOUR EYES and read my "statement".


For some reason when I read some of your post, I get the feeling someone might have pissed is your water cooler at some point in your career..:laughing::laughing:


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## McClary’s Electrical

Bob Badger said:


> OK mcclary's I have learned that in some specific circumstances that do not seem to apply to water contained in a pipe hot water could freeze faster than cold.


 

Iknow this because I did a science experimnet on it when I was a kid, so even with out the article I was prepared to set you straight:laughing:,,,,but honestly,,,I've seen it firsthand(not an experiment),and it could be a coinsedence,but on two occasions, I've lived in older homes and had pipes freeze and burst. On both occasions,the were both hot water pipes and both side by side with cold water. That's the honest truth. The molecules in the cold water are "traveling" (bouncing aroung) alot slower than the warm water, therfore, when the temp drops at night below freezing, the warm water freezes faster


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## MDShunk

mcclary's electrical said:


> ,,but honestly,,,I've seen it firsthand(not an experiment),and it could be a coinsedence,but on two occasions, I've lived in older homes and had pipes freeze and burst. On both occasions,the were both hot water pipes and both side by side with cold water. That's the honest truth. The molecules in the cold water are "traveling" (bouncing aroung) alot slower than the warm water, therfore, when the temp drops at night below freezing, the warm water freezes faster


The reason the hot water lines (which are no longer hot when the taps have been sitting idle for a long time), freeze and burst first for one simple reason. The water in the "cold" line still contains all the minerals that came along in with it. The water that was formerly heated in the water heater had a great deal of the minerals precipitate out. Because of the dissolved minerals, it takes a wee bit longer for the cold line to freeze than the "hot" line. 

Ice machines in some restaurants have the hot water line piped into them, but simply to make crystal clear ice cubes. The ice production is effected, and all the ice machines have charts in the service manuals that show what the daily production of a certain machine will be with various input water temperatures.


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## MDShunk

mcclary's electrical said:


> ,,but honestly,,,I've seen it firsthand(not an experiment),and it could be a coinsedence,but on two occasions, I've lived in older homes and had pipes freeze and burst. On both occasions,the were both hot water pipes and both side by side with cold water. That's the honest truth. The molecules in the cold water are "traveling" (bouncing aroung) alot slower than the warm water, therfore, when the temp drops at night below freezing, the warm water freezes faster


The reason the hot water lines (which are no longer hot when the taps have been sitting idle for a long time), freeze and burst first for one simple reason. The water in the "cold" line still contains all the minerals that came along in with it. The water that was formerly heated in the water heater had a great deal of the minerals precipitate out. Because of the dissolved minerals, it takes a wee bit longer for the cold line to freeze than the "hot" line. 

Ice machines in some restaurants have the hot water line piped into them, but simply to make crystal clear ice cubes. The ice production is effected, and all the ice machines have charts in the service manuals that show what the daily production of a certain machine will be with various input water temperatures. Vendors often purposely oversize the ice machine head when they know that the customer will desire clear cubes to satisfy their daily calculated ice requirements.


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## LJSMITH1

MDShunk said:


> The reason the hot water lines (which are no longer hot when the taps have been sitting idle for a long time), freeze and burst first for one simple reason. The water in the "cold" line still contains all the minerals that came along in with it. The water that was formerly heated in the water heater had a great deal of the minerals precipitate out. Because of the dissolved minerals, it takes a wee bit longer for the cold line to freeze than the "hot" line.
> 
> Ice machines in some restaurants have the hot water line piped into them, but simply to make crystal clear ice cubes. The ice production is effected, and all the ice machines have charts in the service manuals that show what the daily production of a certain machine will be with various input water temperatures. Vendors often purposely oversize the ice machine head when they know that the customer will desire clear cubes to satisfy their daily calculated ice requirements.


While that might be the case for faster freezing, the primary method to create clear ice cubes is to significantly purify the tap water going into the freezing section (i.e. R.O., high filtration, etc.), and to freeze the ice in layers, so as not to entrap any gas bubbles inside the cube. Clear ice machines used in restaurants typically run R.O. or highly filtered water constantly over a refrigerated mold plate, layering the ice, and preventing any entrapped gasses (i.e. how an icicle is formed). Then the ice is released from its mold by reversing the refrigeration cycle through the evaporator (heating it up). 

You can make clear ice at home (freezing all at once), just by distilling tap water 2X (or just go buy some). Pour into a clean ice tray (rinsed with the distilled water) and place in your freezer. The distillation process removes dissolved gasses and minerals. Hot tap water (120-140F) is really not warm enough to do anything like distillation, because distillation requires 212F to turn water into steam.


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## HipGnostic

*Space Heaters for crawl spaces*

I have been in this trade for along time. I have installed various types of heaters in unfinished crawl spaces. (dirt floor, 2 to 3ft high) Mostly very small single story summer homes converted to rentals bought in foreclosure. Back in the day I just did what the customer requested because I did not want to lose the job. Now that I am older I look to do the right thing. Don't get me wrong, any of the heaters I installed, were installed with a permit and safe. The pipes did not freeze and I never had any issues. 

Now I came here to seek opinions of the best type of heater to install in this type of environment, and all I am reading is non productive comments almost stating anyone asking this question is a hack or some other type of insulting answer. On top of it I read suggestions of heat tape, heat ducts, etc. 

First of all it really depends on what type of area the home is located and the conditions of the crawl space. Being we are talking about freezing pipes I assume the conditions are similar to my area. 

Second, Heat tape? Are you guys serious? Is that what you suggest your customers install as the professional non hack fix? I can see you guys at the supply house. Yes can I get 1000ft of heat tape and a bag of zip ties. Plus 4 20 amp single receptacles, 4 20 amp 1p breakers, and 2 rolls of 12/2. And do you have any disposable jump suits and breathing masks for black mold. 

Third, heat ducts? Again. In a small house with a dirt crawl space, the heat wouldn't run long enough to keep the pipes from freezing unless it was on a separate zone. And to extend water baseboard heat would only open another can of worms if for some reason they froze. Now the whole house is out of heat in the middle of winter. 

Agreed. The right thing to do would be seal any air leaks from out side that can compromise the crawl space. Either put a vapor barrier or a rat slab down over the dirt, and insulate all the pipes with the proper foam type wraps. No direct cold air, moisture barrier, insulated pipes, bingo no freezing. But all of the above is expensive. Sure it is the most professional type and permanent repair, but 9 out of 10 times people in these small homes or house flipper types either can't afford this type of repair or do not want to put out that kind of money. 

All of that being said, I ask, what the hell is wrong with a space heater for a safe simple type of solution to this situation? We make a few bucks and solve the problem. The customer is happy and we get referrals which gets us more work. Or am I just another hack?

The narcissistic type of replies I read are very disturbing. Either they have a pile of money and only work for wealthy people, don't care about helping their customers, or just enjoy acting like they are all that and everyone else is inferior who dares to ask a simple question. Shame on you guys. 

Electrician Talk from what I read, is supposed to be for guys like us that like helping each other and picking brains to provide our clients with the best service we can, plus expand our own knowledge through each others experiences. 

Well here is my answer if anyone made it this far. LOL

In my experience, if a client does not have the means to take a second mortgage out to fix their crawl space properly, then a forced air electric heater that is sized for the square footage, mounted on the ceiling closest to the entrance of the crawl space with a unit stat is the way to go. The ignorant statements of humidity in the crawl space makes me laugh. If your trying to fix pipes from freezing, then it is too cold for humidity to exist. If your smart ass reply to that is the heater will cause humidity, then your right and I bow to you. Go do your free estimate, make your customer that has no money feel like an ass hole, don't get the job or any referrals or fix the problem they called you to fix for them, then come here and tell everyone how great you are and how anyone that puts a space heater in a crawl space is a hack. I am not worthy of your expertise and should set fire to my electrical license in my crawl space to keep my own pipes from freezing because I cant afford a rat slab. LOLOLOL

Sorry for the rant. But come on guys! It is a good thing to be confident and feel empowered by knowledge. But try not to let that knowledge you think you have reveal the ignorance you actually possess. You just might learn something. 

Good day my fellow geniuses.


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## backstay

Holy eight year old thread! That said, I've installed baseboards in crawlspaces a lot. It hasn't burned down a house yet. If it won't start the couch on fire when it gets pushed up against it, I'd say it's safe.


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## readydave8

HipGnostic said:


> I have been in this trade for along time. I have installed various types of heaters in unfinished crawl spaces. (dirt floor, 2 to 3ft high) Mostly very small single story summer homes converted to rentals bought in foreclosure. Back in the day I just did what the customer requested because I did not want to lose the job. Now that I am older I look to do the right thing. Don't get me wrong, any of the heaters I installed, were installed with a permit and safe. The pipes did not freeze and I never had any issues.
> 
> Now I came here to seek opinions of the best type of heater to install in this type of environment, and all I am reading is non productive comments almost stating anyone asking this question is a hack or some other type of insulting answer. On top of it I read suggestions of heat tape, heat ducts, etc.
> 
> First of all it really depends on what type of area the home is located and the conditions of the crawl space. Being we are talking about freezing pipes I assume the conditions are similar to my area.
> 
> Second, Heat tape? Are you guys serious? Is that what you suggest your customers install as the professional non hack fix? I can see you guys at the supply house. Yes can I get 1000ft of heat tape and a bag of zip ties. Plus 4 20 amp single receptacles, 4 20 amp 1p breakers, and 2 rolls of 12/2. And do you have any disposable jump suits and breathing masks for black mold.
> 
> Third, heat ducts? Again. In a small house with a dirt crawl space, the heat wouldn't run long enough to keep the pipes from freezing unless it was on a separate zone. And to extend water baseboard heat would only open another can of worms if for some reason they froze. Now the whole house is out of heat in the middle of winter.
> 
> Agreed. The right thing to do would be seal any air leaks from out side that can compromise the crawl space. Either put a vapor barrier or a rat slab down over the dirt, and insulate all the pipes with the proper foam type wraps. No direct cold air, moisture barrier, insulated pipes, bingo no freezing. But all of the above is expensive. Sure it is the most professional type and permanent repair, but 9 out of 10 times people in these small homes or house flipper types either can't afford this type of repair or do not want to put out that kind of money.
> 
> All of that being said, I ask, what the hell is wrong with a space heater for a safe simple type of solution to this situation? We make a few bucks and solve the problem. The customer is happy and we get referrals which gets us more work. Or am I just another hack?
> 
> The narcissistic type of replies I read are very disturbing. Either they have a pile of money and only work for wealthy people, don't care about helping their customers, or just enjoy acting like they are all that and everyone else is inferior who dares to ask a simple question. Shame on you guys.
> 
> Electrician Talk from what I read, is supposed to be for guys like us that like helping each other and picking brains to provide our clients with the best service we can, plus expand our own knowledge through each others experiences.
> 
> Well here is my answer if anyone made it this far. LOL
> 
> In my experience, if a client does not have the means to take a second mortgage out to fix their crawl space properly, then a forced air electric heater that is sized for the square footage, mounted on the ceiling closest to the entrance of the crawl space with a unit stat is the way to go. The ignorant statements of humidity in the crawl space makes me laugh. If your trying to fix pipes from freezing, then it is too cold for humidity to exist. If your smart ass reply to that is the heater will cause humidity, then your right and I bow to you. Go do your free estimate, make your customer that has no money feel like an ass hole, don't get the job or any referrals or fix the problem they called you to fix for them, then come here and tell everyone how great you are and how anyone that puts a space heater in a crawl space is a hack. I am not worthy of your expertise and should set fire to my electrical license in my crawl space to keep my own pipes from freezing because I cant afford a rat slab. LOLOLOL
> 
> Sorry for the rant. But come on guys! It is a good thing to be confident and feel empowered by knowledge. But try not to let that knowledge you think you have reveal the ignorance you actually possess. You just might learn something.
> 
> Good day my fellow geniuses.


Welcome to forum!

Congradulations on setting world record for getting offended in fewest number of posts!:thumbup:


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## lighterup

:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


readydave8 said:


> Welcome to forum!
> 
> Congradulations on setting world record for getting offended in fewest number of posts!:thumbup:


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## HipGnostic

I was not offended at all. Remember I am from NJ. I was just stating the way I see things. I am the type of person that goes out of my way to help others in our field. Even when I do an estimate, if the customer tells me they had other estimates from my competition in my area I don't even quote the job. I believe in honor amongst tradesmen which no longer seems to be a common practice here in NJ. A bunch of cut throat jerk offs for the most part. Don't get me wrong, there are still a few good ones. Mostly the older guys. The reason my rant was so long is because I took typing in HS to meet girls. I learned how to type. So what I wrote only took a few minuets. Not knowing I type like a bitch, I can understand how that many words can be taken as pure conviction of posting my being offended. I can honestly care less. But I thought there might just be 1 or 2 out of 100 that would appreciate my honesty. But thanks for congratulating me for setting a world record and pointing out I set it in what ever the fewest number of posts means. I am new to this. Just signed up tonight. But I have to take notice that you indeed did respond regardless. Peace


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## lighterup

HipGnostic said:


> I was not offended at all. Remember I am from NJ. I was just stating the way I see things. I am the type of person that goes out of my way to help others in our field. Even when I do an estimate, if the customer tells me they had other estimates from my competition in my area I don't even quote the job. I believe in honor amongst tradesmen which no longer seems to be a common practice here in NJ. A bunch of cut throat jerk offs for the most part. Don't get me wrong, there are still a few good ones. Mostly the older guys. The reason my rant was so long is because I took typing in HS to meet girls. I learned how to type. So what I wrote only took a few minuets. Not knowing I type like a bitch, I can understand how that many words can be taken as pure conviction of posting my being offended. I can honestly care less. But I thought there might just be 1 or 2 out of 100 that would appreciate my honesty. But thanks for congratulating me for setting a world record and pointing out I set it in what ever the fewest number of posts means. I am new to this. Just signed up tonight. But I have to take notice that you indeed did respond regardless. Peace


just fyi... that was an old thread. I don't even recall those guys other than 
(1) of em , so when you say "you guys" , you're speaking to ghosts of the past.


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## Signal1

https://youtu.be/6Ejga4kJUts?t=94


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## te12co2w

Wow! I started that thread. I am surprised to see action on it. Hip; you seem to have run into the same problems with crawl spaces as I have. Yes, this is Wyoming. Long cold heating seasons. One problem we sometimes run into is contractors insulating the floors above crawl spaces. When that happens, no heat is transferred to the crawl space by the heated space above. My own house is on a crawl space. The floor is not insulated. The foundation walls and rim joists are insulated. Visquene over the dirt floor. My pipes do not freeze.


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