# Spot The Violation



## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

I'm looking for code articles and let's leave workmanship out if it.


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## Jhellwig (Jun 18, 2014)

Wrong bonding clamp. Needs to be brass not galvanized. Dont have a code book in front of me to find the article though.


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## FlyingSparks (Dec 10, 2012)

I'm not sure where this photo was taken, but I think I would probably GFCI that receptacle underneath.


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## egruhadfio (Jul 21, 2014)

Jhellwig said:


> Wrong bonding clamp. Needs to be brass not galvanized. Dont have a code book in front of me to find the article though.


You won't find that in a code book. That clamp is zinc and it's all I use.

Magnettica, I don't have my codebook here and I am not sure if it's in it. But it looks like the clamp is on the meter's pipe which means you would have to remove the clamp to unscrew that fitting in order to remove the meter. I had an inspector cite that to me once, he let me move it over to another part of the pipe (that's why I like going to inspections).


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

egruhadfio said:


> You won't find that in a code book. That clamp is zinc and it's all I use. Magnettica, I don't have my codebook here and I am not sure if it's in it. But it looks like the clamp is on the meter's pipe which means you would have to remove the clamp to unscrew that fitting in order to remove the meter. I had an inspector cite that to me once, he let me move it over to another part of the pipe (that's why I like going to inspections).


That didn't take long! 

You're right. 

Code: 110.3(A)(8)


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## egruhadfio (Jul 21, 2014)

I win a cookie!

I gotta admit, it makes me shiver seeing so much gold go to waste there. I've become a complete aluminum addict. 

I just checked Cooper, #4 Cu is 77 cents/ft while #2 Al is 25 cents/ft.

A lot of times the water comes into the house on the opposite side as the electric, so for an average GEC run of 50-60' that's a cost difference of $25-30. Free profit for the taking :thumbup:


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Catch the ten foot buried water pipe outside the building and don't worry about the cost of running all over the place to get to it. 5' is an interior requirement not an exterior one.


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## egruhadfio (Jul 21, 2014)

macmikeman said:


> Catch the ten foot buried water pipe outside the building and don't worry about the cost of running all over the place to get to it. 5' is an interior requirement not an exterior one.


Ummmm, what?


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

I am surprised that they allow the connection after the meter. IMO, the connection for the grounding electrode conductor should be before the meter and a bonding jumper to the load side of the meter


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## egruhadfio (Jul 21, 2014)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I am surprised that they allow the connection after the meter. IMO, the connection for the grounding electrode conductor should be before the meter and a bonding jumper to the load side of the meter


That is the bonding jumper that you are looking at.

You can see the other clamp on the other side of the meter, right about the valve.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

I don't see the issue the inspector sees. IMO, you can disconnect the connector


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## egruhadfio (Jul 21, 2014)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I don't see the issue the inspector sees. IMO, you can disconnect the connector


The point of the jumper is so that the meter can be removed/serviced without breaking the bond. 

In the picture (and in the story I told of this happening to me as well) the meter can't be removed without removing that ground clamp.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

It looks like the meter can be removed without breaker the bond. Maybe I am seeing it wrong again


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> It looks like the meter can be removed without breaker the bond. Maybe I am seeing it wrong again


 That's what I was thinking. That's not a union between the bond and the meter?


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## egruhadfio (Jul 21, 2014)

That nut on the meter right next to the ground clamp has to be unthreaded, it looks like the copper wire might impede it from being fully unthreaded (and then slid back to remove the meter).


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I am surprised that they allow the connection after the meter. IMO, the connection for the grounding electrode conductor should be before the meter and a bonding jumper to the load side of the meter


Seriously? Of course it's jumped. I'm showing the violation.


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

egruhadfio said:


> That nut on the meter right next to the ground clamp has to be unthreaded, it looks like the copper wire might impede it from being fully unthreaded (and then slid back to remove the meter).


What should it matter to the inspector/AHJ how hard it would be to remove a meter as long as the pipe is grounded/bonded and jumpered around the meter?


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## egruhadfio (Jul 21, 2014)

A Little Short said:


> What should it matter to the inspector/AHJ how hard it would be to remove a meter as long as the pipe is grounded/bonded and jumpered around the meter?


Read Post #12:



egruhadfio said:


> The point of the jumper is so that the meter can be removed/serviced without breaking the bond.
> 
> In the picture (and in the story I told of this happening to me as well) the meter can't be removed without removing that ground clamp.


What's the point in having the jumper if someone is going to likely remove it in the same exact instance that warrants it's original installation?


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## Julius793 (Nov 29, 2011)

No violation, you can remove the meter without touching the clamp. The nut on the right of the meter spins and the meter will pull away.


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

egruhadfio said:


> Read Post #12:
> 
> 
> 
> What's the point in having the jumper if someone is going to likely remove it in the same exact instance that warrants it's original installation?






A Little Short said:


> What should it matter to the inspector/AHJ how hard it would be to remove a meter as long as the pipe is grounded/bonded *and jumpered around the meter?*


I said as long as it's jumpered around. I was talking about the part about having a hard time removing the meter because of the clamp. I'm talking about the OP picture. That meter can be removed without removing the clamps.


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## daks (Jan 16, 2013)

One of the reasons I was told it was required was that sometimes there is teflon tape,pipe dope or seals used on the meter or connections that might interfere with proper grounding/bonding of the pipes after the meter.


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

and some places still have PLASTIC meters! not a good bond:whistling2:


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## 3DDesign (Oct 25, 2014)

I think the jumper should go to the other side of the each valve. The jumper should bypass all threaded joints. The valves are threaded. If someone removed the meter, they could also remove a valve by turning it and that would remove the jumper.
I think the jumper should go from solid soldered copper to solid copper tubing coming from the street.


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## Julius793 (Nov 29, 2011)

3DDesign said:


> I think the jumper should go to the other side of the each valve. The jumper should bypass all threaded joints. The valves are threaded. If someone removed the meter, they could also remove a valve by turning it and that would remove the jumper.
> I think the jumper should go from solid soldered copper to solid copper tubing coming from the street.



The nec isn't about what you think or feel. Fact is the water company tends to remove meters not valves. It has nothing to do with being threaded compression or soldered.


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## 3DDesign (Oct 25, 2014)

Julius793 said:


> The nec isn't about what you think or feel. Fact is the water company tends to remove meters not valves. It has nothing to do with being threaded compression or soldered.


My local inspector requires all threaded connections to be bypassed by the Jumper. Water Co. employees and others have been killed by the potential difference between the Street and House water lines, bypassing threaded connections is a good idea. The main water line can carry thousands of volts. Sometimes it's lower voltage but thousands of amps.


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## 3DDesign (Oct 25, 2014)

I would consider that valve an item that may be disconnected for repair. In any case, why not do it the safest way? It may be a plumber or homeowner that removes the valve, they need protection from shock.

From the NEC:
(B) Effective Grounding Path.
The connection of a grounding electrode conductor or bonding jumper to a grounding electrode shall be made in a manner that will ensure an effective grounding path. Where necessary to ensure the grounding path for a metal piping system used as a grounding electrode, bonding shall be provided around insulated joints and *around any equipment likely to be disconnected for repairs or replacement. Bonding jumpers shall be of sufficient length to permit removal of such equipment while retaining the integrity of the grounding path.*
Water meters and water filter systems are examples of equipment likely to be disconnected for repairs or replacement. Shorter bonding jumpers are more likely to be disconnected to facilitate removal or reinstallation of a water meter or filter cartridge. This section specifies that the bonding jumper must be long enough to permit removal of such equipment without disconnecting or otherwise interrupting the bonding jumper.


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## NC Plc (Mar 24, 2014)

So what would be best for this situation is to GFCI the outlet in the picture and to place the bonding jumper on the outside of the two valves, instead of on the inside as it is in the picture?


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## Wpgshocker (Jan 25, 2013)

Here is a fun one!
Conductor too short? Just cut a space out for it!
Customer won't upgrade the panel, aluminum wiring with zero Au rated devices or connections.


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## Julius793 (Nov 29, 2011)

3DDesign said:


> My local inspector requires all threaded connections to be bypassed by the Jumper. Water Co. employees and others have been killed by the potential difference between the Street and House water lines, bypassing threaded connections is a good idea. The main water line can carry thousands of volts. Sometimes it's lower voltage but thousands of amps.


That's crazy, Just because it's threaded a repair guy doesn't say oh it's threaded let's replace it for the fun of it. About the thousands of volts part??? Or thousands of amps???


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

NC EET said:


> So what would be best for this situation is to GFCI the outlet in the picture and to place the bonding jumper on the outside of the two valves, instead of on the inside as it is in the picture?


I don't know why anyone would go out of their way to gfci that ancient ass recep unless they were actually required to.


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## 3DDesign (Oct 25, 2014)

Julius793 said:


> That's crazy, Just because it's threaded a repair guy doesn't say oh it's threaded let's replace it for the fun of it. About the thousands of volts part??? Or thousands of amps???


I'm friends with a supervisor for the county water authority. In his 28 years of work, he's had employees killed by removing the meter. Primary voltage like 23,000 is possible, low voltage with high amperage is also possible. Low voltage/high amperage is more likely. This jumper is very important. 
I thought all electricians knew how dangerous this could be.
"This safety alert replaces a previous safety alert issued in 2005 and has been revised following the recent death of a plumber who was electrocuted while installing a new section of copper water pipe at a private residence. This is the second fatality of its type that has occurred in NSW since 2005.
"http://www.workcover.nsw.gov.au/formspublications/publications/Documents/Safety_alert_electrical_hazards_from_metallic_water_servic_5910.pdf


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## 3DDesign (Oct 25, 2014)

Wpgshocker said:


> Here is a fun one!
> Conductor too short? Just cut a space out for it!
> Customer won't upgrade the panel, aluminum wiring with zero Au rated devices or connections.
> 
> ...


In our area, some insurance companies won't insure a property with Pushmatic. The city of Pittsburgh will force you to replace all Pushmatic panels.


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## 8V71 (Dec 23, 2011)

Julius793 said:


> No violation, you can remove the meter without touching the clamp. The nut on the right of the meter spins and the meter will pull away.


Old thread and I agree. Loosen the union nut and the meter can be removed without disturbing the bond.

Although the hack plumber didn't wipe his joint and the dripping flux turned the pipe green. :whistling2:


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## NC Plc (Mar 24, 2014)

ponyboy said:


> I don't know why anyone would go out of their way to gfci that ancient ass recep unless they were actually required to.


Just something I would suggest to the owner but I wouldn't do it for free.


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