# BlackHawk PowerHouse?



## bkmichael65

This is just a scam. You're charged for Kilowatt hours or true power used and this will not change the amount of power you actually consume. If something sounds too good to be true, then it probably is


----------



## 99cents

I thought you were talking hockey...


----------



## sprint23

We are on a demand meter. When we first opened (13 years ago), They didn't put us on a demand meter and our bill was $900-1000 a month. After about six months, they came in and put the demand meter in and our bill went up to $1500. On their website, it claims to reduce peak load charges. If it was a scam, why would they be willing to install at no money out of my pocket? thanks


----------



## bkmichael65

I have no idea how they're financing works. All I can tell you is the amount of kw hours used is dictated by your equipment and the price of that electricity is dictated by the utility and there is nothing that will change that. If you had a large motor load at your facility and you were charged a premium for low power factor, then this might help. Feel free to ask others. This sort of snake oil sales has been around for a long time. Let the buyer beware


----------



## sprint23

After reading the posts on the forum, I wouldn't buy it because from what i've read, there isn't any evidence of it working. But with option #1, there is no financing involved because i don't have to pay for the equipment, just have to pay 1/2 of what I save (will definitely read the fine print). With the demand meter I have now, I am charged for power I don't use. thanks for your response


----------



## bkmichael65

I think an energy audit to look at your power consumption and possible remedies is your best choice


----------



## Ewcelectric

I bet they'll lock you in for 5 years at $.25/ kwh. But your usage will go down

Sounds like a scam


----------



## Paulusgnome

If you are on a demand meter, you are probably paying an extra amount over and above the charge for KWh, and so by installing a proper power-factor correction system you may well be able to reduce the demand charges.
That said, I don't think that this Blackhawk thing will do much for you. It appears to be much the same as the other PFC scam devices that have already been roundly debunked here and elsewhere. Two observations in support of this opinion : 1) they are pitching them at residential applications, and we all know that residential customers are charged for KWh, and that PFC will have no effect on the KWh used; and 2) The opening paragraph of their website - "Even though you pay for it, a portion of the power entering your electrical system is lost to ground and never consumed. This is referred to as Reactive Power." 
WALOOB.


----------



## circuitman1

just thought of a question on these things. there nothing but a couple of run caps,i hooked a couple of these on a 240 circuit put my amp clamp on one about 4 amps, the meter (kilowatthour) meter never moved. put a 100 watt bulb on it, it started moving. it was only pulling .89 amp. why didn't it turn with the cap?


----------



## bkmichael65

Because the reactive power isn't used, it's returned back up the service drop from where it came from. Almost all service meters just read the actual power consumed


----------



## don_resqcapt19

Paulusgnome said:


> If you are on a demand meter, you are probably paying an extra amount over and above the charge for KWh, and so by installing a proper power-factor correction system you may well be able to reduce the demand charges.
> ...


The demand charges are based on kW demand and power factor correction will do nothing to reduce demand charges.


----------



## Paulusgnome

OK, I was thinking of the type of metering that is sometimes used in commercial/industrial supplies where the KVA demand is measured and an extra charge made if it goes above a certain level.
If the metering here is purely KWh metering then you are right Don, PFC will have no effect on the demand charges.


----------



## boochie

A friends business installed something similar to this and was given results after install. I guess they turn the units on and off with a meter hooked up at the main and record the fluctuations. Thoughts on this graph?


----------



## boochie

sorry that didn't work. here link to graph http://postimg.org/image/gvg8u36qf/


----------



## Paulusgnome

The graph is fairly meaningless without some context.
I'd say that your friend is being conned, and that either doing the testing yourself with a proper power quality analyser or paying someone independent of the scam-merchant to test it would yield results that you could have a lot more confidence in.


----------



## xlink

The guy on the video on their site says the savings are from reduced demand. That's power factor correction on a demand meter.

If they take control of motors, they could sequence them to keep the peak down, but I think demand is averaged over 15 or 20 minutes, so it would be tough to do. Only one air conditioner at a time etc.

Anyone who offers power savings on a residential wattmeter should be scrutinized carefully about everything they say.


----------



## gold

Your better off putting a bucket under the panel to catch the electrons that fall out then dump them back in the metet socket and refill it.


----------



## Southeast Power

If they install it for free and want to take half, you might think of paying for half and getting them out of there.
This is what they want. 5k for something worth about $30.

It is a total scam. We all know better, just sayin:whistling2:


----------



## boochie

Paulusgnome said:


> The graph is fairly meaningless without some context.
> I'd say that your friend is being conned, and that either doing the testing yourself with a proper power quality analyser or paying someone independent of the scam-merchant to test it would yield results that you could have a lot more confidence in.


He mentioned the meter brand etc. Amprobe DM-II I think. Looked it up and it seems reputable.


----------



## Paulusgnome

It isn't that the meter used to collect the graph data is not measuring correctly, it most probably is.
The problem is the graph is presented without any contextual information to allow us to interpret it. It looks to be a plot of power where it is varying a little in the short-term, consistent perhaps with a set of smaller loads being switched in and out in a pseudo-random way, and superimposed on this is a set of larger transitions of about 3KW every 2 minutes or so, consistent perhaps with the operation of a larger (~3KW) load.
If it is being asserted by the supplier of this graph that it demonstrates the effect on real power of switching capacitors across the supply, then they are incorrect and are almost certainly deliberately lying, because capacitors do not produce any such effect on real power.
Boochie, how about you get the story that goes with the graph and post it here so that we can dissect it for you?


----------



## gold

Ever meet someone that believes in Bigfoot?


----------



## boochie

Thanks for the response. Essentially he said it was pretty straightforward.

They hook the meter up around the mains and turn the unit on and off using its breaker. It is hooked up in parallel to the main bus bars.

You can watch the results as it happens, he said he stood with them as they did it. I asked him for more info and he sent me a few more graphs from the metering. I assume these go with the kW graph and are for amperage, power factor and apparent power (VA's)?

You can actually see some harmonics taken out of the apparent power as well it looks like.


----------



## JRaef

sprint23 said:


> I've got a butcher shop with normal equipment (refrigeration, lights, equipment, a/c). I had a company stop by and talk to me about this BlackHawk Powerhouse system. I've tried to find more info about it on internet but can't find anything except for what it says on their website or what some have said on here. Our monthly electric bill averages $2000-2500 a month. The salesman said that the average customer saves 20% a month after install. He gave us three options. #1 install at no cost to me and his company is paid 1/2 of what we save a month......#2 buy unit and have installed for approx. $10000.....#3 have unit installed and pay 1/2 our saving to them for six months,and if we want to buy it then, we can. With option #1 or 3, it sound like a no lose situation and and chance to see if it actually works. Any insight? Thanks


Here is how that scam works, and yes, it IS a scam...

They make option #2 so onerous ($10K ??? WOW), nobody ever buys it. But by doing so, they create the impression that option 3 is a bargain, and option 1 is the PROOF of that bargain, because it sounds like it is SO GOOD that they will take that financial risk themselves! That is the oldest scam trick in the book, playing on YOUR GREED to keep the extra savings out of THEIR hands. Go rent "The Sting" again, pay attention to how the grifters do almost EXACTLY the same thing. Yes, they risk a LITTLE of their own money, but the prize makes it well worth it.

So when you select options 1 or 3, they put in a device that is worth about $50 in components, but make you sign a contract that gives them half of any savings on your bill. When you read the fine print, it will say _*ANY*_ savings. So even if you use less energy, because let's say you didn't NEED as much, your bill goes down, but *YOU STILL GIVE IT TO THEM*! It's the perfect scam: If it works (supposedly), you feel good about giving away half of your savings. If it doesn't, it costs them nothing and you feel like you got away with something. If you try to claim that the bill went down because you used less, they take credit for you using less. If the bill goes up, you STILL pay the utility, so they don't get their ROI on that $50 investment... _*that month*_. But they are betting, and it's not much of a risky bet, that sooner or later you will use less energy on your own, your bill will be lower than the same month the previous year, and you will have to give 1/2 of that money to them. 

Perfect scam...



website said:


> All electrical energy coming into a facility is known as Apparent Power, and the power we actually use is defined as Real Power. Even though you pay for it, *a portion of the power entering your electrical system is lost to ground and never consumed*. This is referred to as Reactive Power. The ultimate goal is to bring these two factors, Apparent Power and Real Power, closer together. The Black Hawk Powerhouse is able to accomplish this by *capturing this lost voltage, store it and feed it back into your electrical system*. In order to accomplish this, The Powerhouse adds capacitance (stored charge) via a series of capacitors. This enables the unit to capture the Reactive Power, *commonly lost to ground*, store it, and put it back into the system, evenly across all phases, as it is needed.


Pure unadulterated bovine excrement


----------



## Paulusgnome

Those last 3 graphs could illustrate the effect of switching a capacitor across the supply, being graphs of RMS line current (first graph), apparent power (second graph) and power factor (third graph).
Your original graph is still wrong though, since the presence or absence in the circuit of the capacitor will not have any effect on real power. Perhaps the axes were mislabelled and it is another graph of apparent power?
It's a bit surprising that Boochie is not questioning this himself - the theory behind power factor correction is Electrician 101 stuff, right? It isn't exactly new technology, it has been well understood for over 150 years now, and can be easily verified with a few simple tests.


----------



## backstay

JRaef said:


> Here is how that scam works, and yes, it IS a scam...
> 
> They make option #2 so onerous ($10K ??? WOW), nobody ever buys it. But by doing so, they create the impression that option 3 is a bargain, and option 1 is the PROOF of that bargain, because it sounds like it is SO GOOD that they will take that financial risk themselves! That is the oldest scam trick in the book, playing on YOUR GREED to keep the extra savings out of THEIR hands. Go rent "The Sting" again, pay attention to how the grifters do almost EXACTLY the same thing. Yes, they risk a LITTLE of their own money, but the prize makes it well worth it.
> 
> So when you select options 1 or 3, they put in a device that is worth about $50 in components, but make you sign a contract that gives them half of any savings on your bill. When you read the fine print, it will say ANY savings. So even if you use less energy, because let's say you didn't NEED as much, your bill goes down, but YOU STILL GIVE IT TO THEM! It's the perfect scam: If it works (supposedly), you feel good about giving away half of your savings. If it doesn't, it costs them nothing and you feel like you got away with something. If you try to claim that the bill went down because you used less, they take credit for you using less. If the bill goes up, you STILL pay the utility, so they don't get their ROI on that $50 investment... that month. But they are betting, and it's not much of a risky bet, that sooner or later you will use less energy on your own, your bill will be lower than the same month the previous year, and you will have to give 1/2 of that money to them.
> 
> Perfect scam...
> 
> Pure unadulterated bovine excrement


I'll add to this. You will be watching your usage more and WILL use less power. They'll make money off your conservation.


----------



## Big John

Nevermind. Don't even want to wade into this.


----------



## Non Rated

Big John said:


> Nevermind. Don't even want to wade into this.


Good idea. If people are intent on believing a mystery box will lower their electric bills, there's not a whole lot you can do to stop them. :no:


----------



## boochie

Paulusgnome,

I am not an electrician or an electrical engineer of any kind. I do have some knowledge about power and how it works, but that is why am here to clarify, as the friend came to me so I thought I'd help him out.

The first graph is kW and he says the unit sold to him is more then just capacitors, it has magnetic choke coils that supposedly act as a mini transformer and turn non-usable power into usable power through the interaction of 3-phase power around the chokes. He watched the kW demand drop live as they turned the unit on and off. He said the units they sell are built for AC power and commercial and industrial use only as they need a certain amount of draw to generate some kW.


----------



## JRaef

backstay said:


> I'll add to this. You will be watching your usage more and WILL use less power. They'll make money off your conservation.


Yep, I forgot that element to it. They know that once you have taken a step like this you will become more conscious of your energy use, which results in using less energy, which they profit from. Nobody likes to admit they have been taken, so they do what they can to ENSURE some visible success. The scammers are counting on that.


----------



## gold

boochie said:


> Paulusgnome,
> 
> I am not an electrician


Thats really all you need to say.


----------



## boochie

goldagain,

Thanks for your contribution. It's great to see that because I have a different profession than you, you still something valuable to say.

All I'm wondering is if he watched the ELECTRICIAN who installed the unit hook up the meter and turn the unit on and off and watch with his own eyes the kW drop, the only explanation that i've gotten is that "no it's a trick" sounds just as ridiculous as them claiming it works- if that's not the case.

Cheers


----------



## gold

boochie said:


> goldagain,
> 
> Thanks for your contribution. It's great to see that because I have a different profession than you, you still something valuable to say.
> 
> All I'm wondering is if he watched the ELECTRICIAN who installed the unit hook up the meter and turn the unit on and off and watch with his own eyes the kW drop, the only explanation that i've gotten is that "no it's a trick" sounds just as ridiculous as them claiming it works- if that's not the case.
> 
> Cheers


And thanks for your contribution Booch, now take your snake oil and get the **** out.


----------



## boochie

So you're saying you don't know why the kW are dropping? All I am is curious if there is an explanation? I'm trying to help someone out, which is what these forums are about. Stop reading this thread if you can't even explain anything.


----------



## Big John

I lied, I'll wade in:


boochie said:


> ...He watched the kW demand drop live as they turned the unit on and off....


 So the argument here is that he has a building drawing a load of, let's say 100kW. He hooks up this fancy pants device, and turns it off and on, and somehow magically, the 100kW load begins drawing less than 100kW, despite still being the same 100kW load?

That's like saying I have a special device that will allow you to fit 4 cubic feet of water in 2 cubic feet of space. By definition, it's impossible. It's a scam.


----------



## gold

boochie said:


> ..which is what these forums are about. Stop reading this thread if you can't even explain anything.


See this is where your wrong. This is a forum for professional electricians, not a forum for explaining theory to shady nail bangers that want to sell magic boxes.

Potatos gonna potate
Carpenters gonna carpentate


----------



## Big John

Goldagain said:


> ...Carpenters gonna carpentate


 I'm out of thanks, so: :lol:


----------



## bkmichael65

I'm sure the product works just like the manufacturer intended; to separate foolish people from their money


----------



## drspec

but, but, but, THEY said..........


----------



## Southeast Power

boochie said:


> Paulusgnome,
> 
> I am not an electrician or an electrical engineer of any kind. I do have some knowledge about power and how it works, but that is why am here to clarify, as the friend came to me so I thought I'd help him out.
> 
> The first graph is kW and he says the unit sold to him is more then just capacitors, it has magnetic choke coils that supposedly act as a mini transformer and turn non-usable power into usable power through the interaction of 3-phase power around the chokes. He watched the kW demand drop live as they turned the unit on and off. He said the units they sell are built for AC power and commercial and industrial use only as they need a certain amount of draw to generate some kW.


Oh wait where did I put that?
Here it is:


----------



## Big John

That video always gets a chuckle out of me. The hand gestures really sell it.


----------



## jnashreal

*Black Hawk Powerhouse*

I've looked into the product and it essentially works like a bank of capacitors. It stores energy in the capacitors for quick use when the system requires heavy initial loads. 

I live in Springfield where they installed it in the Courthouse and they spoke very highly of the system.

I would think that if you don't have to pay anything out of pocket and you get to keep money that you would've been spending normally, it sounds like a win-win situation. What've you got to lose?


----------



## Big John

jnashreal said:


> ...What've you got to lose?


Money in utility bills.

This video is a demonstration of a PF capacitor device by someone who is actually trying to _sell this_ _to consumers._ Go to 2:35 and watch the top number on his meter, which is kilowatts.




With the unit off, kW = 0.673

With the unit *on*, kW = 1.612

Since you are getting billed on kW, your utility bill will go up using this device.


----------



## circuitman1

i've hooked to capacitors like this to my shop, put an amp meter on it. sure enough drawing amps, but the kw meter wasn't even moving. btw it was a brand new mechanical meter that was certified by hialeah meter.so know it was ok. can someone explain this to me?:confused1:


----------



## sbrn33

jnashreal said:


> I've looked into the product and it essentially works like a bank of capacitors. It stores energy in the capacitors for quick use when the system requires heavy initial loads.
> 
> I live in Springfield where they installed it in the Courthouse and they spoke very highly of the system.
> 
> I would think that if you don't have to pay anything out of pocket and you get to keep money that you would've been spending normally, it sounds like a win-win situation. What've you got to lose?


:laughing::laughing::laughing:


----------



## don_resqcapt19

circuitman1 said:


> i've hooked to capacitors like this to my shop, put an amp meter on it. sure enough drawing amps, but the kw meter wasn't even moving. btw it was a brand new mechanical meter that was certified by hialeah meter.so know it was ok. can someone explain this to me?:confused1:


 Watt hour meters measure power not amps. This is exactly why adding capacitors does not save you money on your electric bill. The addition of capacitors does not reduce the amount of power used...except for the very small savings based on the small reduction of I²R losses.


----------



## jnashreal

*Enough of the peanut gallery posts*

It would be interesting if we could get some posts from people that have had it installed or who ACTUALLY knows someone that uses it. Most of the posts are from armchair electricians who went to the website and think their an expert on the product. I'm trying to get some honest, qualified opinions on the product before I move forward with installing one for our building. Thank you!


----------



## bkmichael65

jnashreal said:


> It would be interesting if we could get some posts from people that have had it installed or who ACTUALLY knows someone that uses it. Most of the posts are from armchair electricians who went to the website and think their an expert on the product. I'm trying to get some honest, qualified opinions on the product before I move forward with installing one for our building. Thank you!


Seriously? Why would a nuclear power plant operator come to an electrician's forum to get input on something like this. Anybody with with minimal electrical theory knows that it's not possible to lower actual kw consumption with capacitors


----------



## uconduit

I clicked this post expecting to see some sort of 500mw+ coal or natural gas plant


----------



## chewy

uconduit said:


> I clicked this post expecting to see some sort of 500mw+ coal or natural gas plant


So did I : (


----------



## Zog

jnashreal said:


> It would be interesting if we could get some posts from people that have had it installed or who ACTUALLY knows someone that uses it. Most of the posts are from armchair electricians who went to the website and think their an expert on the product. I'm trying to get some honest, qualified opinions on the product before I move forward with installing one for our building. Thank you!


Sure, the guy who does not understand basic electrical theory is calling those that do armchair electricians. If you understood basic theory and how your POCO meters and charges customers it would be very clear to you this is a scam. 

AND NICET has tested these and published papers saying they are a scam. AND if they really worked, don't you think they would say GE, or Square D on them instead of Blackhawk?

Here is the thread where all of this is discussed as it has many, many, many times on here. http://www.electriciantalk.com/f2/pf-correction-devices-again-12961/


----------



## brian john

Please tell me in 2013 there are not dolts that

Sell these because you're a freaking crook,

Believe these work

If you install one someone else bought go for it as long as you know they are USELESS.


----------



## circuitman1

don_resqcapt19 said:


> Watt hour meters measure power not amps. This is exactly why adding capacitors does not save you money on your electric bill. The addition of capacitors does not reduce the amount of power used...except for the very small savings based on the small reduction of I²R losses.


this still really doesn't answer my question, my amprobe said the capacitors that were hooked up to the 240 volt line was drawing 5 amps, but the meter was not moving. that's my question, there was a load , but no meter movement, why? :whistling2:


----------



## Big John

circuitman1 said:


> this still really doesn't answer my question, my amprobe said the capacitors that were hooked up to the 240 volt line was drawing 5 amps, but the meter was not moving. that's my question, there was a load , but no meter movement, why? :whistling2:


 Because your meter measures kilowatts. The capacitors were mostly consuming reactive power: Much of the energy being drawn by the capacitor was being stored as an electric field and returned back to the circuit when the alternating-current supply changed polarity. Your actual power consumption would've been just the leakage current through the capacitor dielectric, and this should be very low.

This is the problem with large industrial customers that consume a lot of lagging VARs and run low PF: They put a load on the grid in amps, and cause heating and capacity deficiency that the POCO has to take into account, but they aren't using the enough watts for the POCO to make good money. To combat this, many POCOs will bill industrial customers for volt-amps, not watts, and it becomes in the customers interest to correct their power factor as near unity as possible.

Incidentally, this is actually also the theory behind doing power-factor testing on conductor-insulation systems: A perfect insulator will consume no energy, 100% VARs, and have a PF of zero. So when testing you know the further you get away from 0% PF, the worse the quality of the insulation is.


----------



## brian john

jnashreal said:


> It would be interesting if we could get some posts from people that have had it installed or who ACTUALLY knows someone that uses it. Most of the posts are from armchair electricians who went to the website and think their an expert on the product. I'm trying to get some honest, qualified opinions on the product before I move forward with installing one for our building. Thank you!


I have worked on and tested sites with switching cap banks and yes they worked when caps are switched in based on loads present and there is a penalty for a poor pf. This device has no clue on the type of loads on line and is constantly connected offering nothing to the end user, other than an unscrupulous EC taking their cash 

But the HooDoo VooDoo horse **** of installing a black box on a residential service and expecting any savings is just that ROAD APPLES, crap on a stick and if you believe I am wrong send me a box and I'll run the test. My firm has the equipment and capabilities to run these test, if I am wrong I will return the black box, and double the money this box cost and send $100.00 as an apology for calling you a no nothing hack.

Other wise lets move on to better topics that discuss REAL electrical devices.

Because the professionals on THIS SITE have once again tried to explain to the hacks that this is BS.


----------



## wendon

jnashreal said:


> It would be interesting if we could get some posts from people that have had it installed or who ACTUALLY knows someone that uses it. Most of the posts are from armchair electricians who went to the website and think their an expert on the product. I'm trying to get some honest, qualified opinions on the product, from the comfort of my armchair, before I move forward with installing one for our building. Thank you!


FIFY:thumbsup: No doubt you heat your house for pennies with one of those new, more efficient, electric heaters too.


----------



## brian john

I once went to a seminar with 20 electricians and 3 utility engineers (another electrician friend of mine brought the 3 engineers). The guy at the seminar was pushing some sort of residential, light commercial power saver. I almost felt sorry for the sales rep as the utility engineers took him apart.


----------



## JRaef

brian john said:


> I once went to a seminar with 20 electricians and 3 utility engineers (another electrician friend of mine brought the 3 engineers). The guy at the seminar was pushing some sort of residential, light commercial power saver. I almost felt sorry for the sales rep as the utility engineers took him apart.


A lot of the "sales reps" for products like this are actually victims themselves. They are people who, out of entrepreneurial spirit, want to get into the energy saving field but do not have and cannot afford the requisite education to do so correctly. So they fall for the "short cut" method offered by these scammer companies and sign up as "exclusive" agents for the products. Unfortunately for them, they must also purchase a demo case ($100 worth of parts for $5,000) and an initial inventory that can be anywhere from $5k to $25k! Then later, when they discover it's a scam and they can't make a living, they also discover that the company refuses to take anything back, or they have ceased to exist.


----------



## circuitman1

Big John said:


> Because your meter measures kilowatts. The capacitors were mostly consuming reactive power: Much of the energy being drawn by the capacitor was being stored as an electric field and returned back to the circuit when the alternating-current supply changed polarity. Your actual power consumption would've been just the leakage current through the capacitor dielectric, and this should be very low.
> 
> This is the problem with large industrial customers that consume a lot of lagging VARs and run low PF: They put a load on the grid in amps, and cause heating and capacity deficiency that the POCO has to take into account, but they aren't using the enough watts for the POCO to make good money. To combat this, many POCOs will bill industrial customers for volt-amps, not watts, and it becomes in the customers interest to correct their power factor as near unity as possible.
> 
> Incidentally, this is actually also the theory behind doing power-factor testing on conductor-insulation systems: A perfect insulator will consume no energy, 100% VARs, and have a PF of zero. So when testing you know the further you get away from 0% PF, the worse the quality of the insulation is.


ok i think i understand now, what it used it put back, just cancelling it out.:thumbup:


----------



## brian john

JRaef said:


> A lot of the "sales reps" for products like this are actually victims themselves. They are people who, out of entrepreneurial spirit, want to get into the energy saving field but do not have and cannot afford the requisite education to do so correctly. So they fall for the "short cut" method offered by these scammer companies and sign up as "exclusive" agents for the products. Unfortunately for them, they must also purchase a demo case ($100 worth of parts for $5,000) and an initial inventory that can be anywhere from $5k to $25k! Then later, when they discover it's a scam and they can't make a living, they also discover that the company refuses to take anything back, or they have ceased to exist.


Yep, the three salesmen I met sold no other electrical products on their line cards


----------



## Zog

JRaef said:


> A lot of the "sales reps" for products like this are actually victims themselves. They are people who, out of entrepreneurial spirit, want to get into the energy saving field but do not have and cannot afford the requisite education to do so correctly. So they fall for the "short cut" method offered by these scammer companies and sign up as "exclusive" agents for the products. Unfortunately for them, they must also purchase a demo case ($100 worth of parts for $5,000) and an initial inventory that can be anywhere from $5k to $25k! Then later, when they discover it's a scam and they can't make a living, they also discover that the company refuses to take anything back, or they have ceased to exist.


I met a guy at a small trade show last year, he had a booth selling these next to me and had just started his business. He had zero electrical background and only knew to say what his marketing materials told him. 

Well the show was slow so we had plenty of time to talk, I felt sorry for the guy, by the end of the day he realized he had been duped. Nice guy, he actually felt guilty.


----------



## JRaef

Zog said:


> I met a guy at a small trade show last year, he had a booth selling these next to me and had just started his business. He had zero electrical background and only knew to say what his marketing materials told him.
> 
> Well the show was slow so we had plenty of time to talk, I felt sorry for the guy, by the end of the day he realized he had been duped. Nice guy, he actually felt guilty.


I've run into that several times. Trade shows make it even sadder, it's usually at least $1,500 for a small booth, often much more. I ran into one for the "Power Boss" at a show in Vegas where our booth cost us $5,000 plus setup, electrical and breakdown charges. Poor schmuck was into it for almost $50k for his "distributorship". 

I've tried to be gentle on them in challenging the scam language, doing it when things are slow as you mentioned, but a few of them have immediately turned into "Richards" when they perceive the threat. That's when I sometimes go for the throat.


----------



## s.kelly

I saw a mid sized reputable contractor selling these in my area recently.
Would love to get a tv ad of what scumbags they are now.


----------



## Paulusgnome

jnashreal said:


> ... Most of the posts are from armchair electricians who went to the website and think their an expert on the product. ...


It should be clear to most folks who follow debates/discussions on internet forums that when the combatant(s) with the least sound position runs out of actual facts to argue with, they can usually be relied on to signal their factual bankruptcy by insulting and denigrating their opponents. 

So, in this case, we can happily say that the poster Jnashreal has no further facts to add to the debate, and has accordingly run up his white flag of surrender. A pity really. Talk about bringing a knife to a gunfight.







:laughing::no:


----------



## brian john

Paulusgnome said:


> It should be clear to most folks who follow debates/discussions on internet forums that when the combatant(s) with the least sound position runs out of actual facts to argue with, they can usually be relied on to signal their factual bankruptcy by insulting and denigrating their opponents.
> 
> So, in this case, we can happily say that the poster Jnashreal has no further facts to add to the debate, and has accordingly run up his white flag of surrender. A pity really. Talk about bringing a knife to a gunfight.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :laughing::no:


Seems New Zealand breeds wise individuals.:thumbsup:

I did find this funny as I was searching for a Power Saver to buy, test and post the results.



> Power Saver Ripoff Alert | electricsaver1200.com
> www.electricsaver1200.com
> Dont Pay $299-399 Get Same Result $97 Made in USA Quality Fast Free SH


Seems even snake oil salesman fight to the bottom.


----------



## triden

circuitman1 said:


> i've hooked to capacitors like this to my shop, put an amp meter on it. sure enough drawing amps, but the kw meter wasn't even moving. btw it was a brand new mechanical meter that was certified by hialeah meter.so know it was ok. can someone explain this to me?:confused1:


Your kw meter is measuring real power. Your ammeter is reading apparent current which is a combination of reactive and real current. Since a capacitor only draws reactive current, you kw meter will read 0 as real power is a result of real current and NOT reactive current that a capacitor uses.


----------



## JRaef

brian john said:


> Seems New Zealand breeds wise individuals.:thumbsup:
> 
> I did find this funny as I was searching for a Power Saver to buy, test and post the results.
> 
> Seems even snake oil salesman fight to the bottom.


That's hilarious!

""Hey, idiot! My scam is cheaper than HIS scam!"


----------



## circuitman1

triden said:


> Your kw meter is measuring real power. Your ammeter is reading apparent current which is a combination of reactive and real current. Since a capacitor only draws reactive current, you kw meter will read 0 as real power is a result of real current and NOT reactive current that a capacitor uses.


THANKS triden! now i understand exactly! :thumbup:


----------



## 10492

JRaef said:


> I ran into one for the "Power Boss" at a show in Vegas where our booth cost us $5,000 plus setup, electrical and breakdown charges. Poor schmuck was into it for almost $50k for his "distributorship".


Most of these Power Boss, and Motor Boss "salesmen" that I ran into are all from England.......

Was that guy speaking with a British tongue by chance?


----------



## Dave Gray

*Data shows that the Blackhawk reduces energy consumption*

I have reviewed the operation of the Blackhawk power conditioner over a one month trial at large fitness facility in Edmonton, Alberta in cooperation with the City of Edmonton. Hourly energy consumption, peak kW and peak kVA were compared with the Blackhawk operating for 21 days and off for 10 days during July 2013. The effect of temperature on the data was accounted for using cooling degree days.

The data showed that the Blackhawk reduced energy kW.h consumption by 350 kW.h per day or 6.5%. This reduction alone was enough to payback the unit in 1.6 years with a 61% 10 year ROI. 

The unit was clearly providing capacitance to the building to improve the load factor, however, the effect on energy consumption is greater than I have observed in other types of power factor correction.

The Blackhawk power conditioner does not deserve the derogatory labels that have been used in this thread. Their data is better than your opinions.

I will email this study to interested parties. My bona fides include 25 years as an electric energy economist and executive, including appearances before multiple regulatory commissions.


----------



## don_resqcapt19

Dave Gray said:


> ...
> The unit was clearly providing capacitance to the building to improve the load factor, however, the effect on energy consumption is greater than I have observed in other types of power factor correction.
> ...


Please explain the physics that let the PF correction system save actual energy in excess of the small reduction in the I²R losses that it can provide. The reduction in those losses is typically less than 1/2% of the total kW.


----------



## BBQ

Dave Gray said:


> I have reviewed the operation of the Blackhawk power conditioner over a one month trial at large fitness facility in Edmonton, Alberta in cooperation with the City of Edmonton. Hourly energy consumption, peak kW and peak kVA were compared with the Blackhawk operating for 21 days and off for 10 days during July 2013. The effect of temperature on the data was accounted for using cooling degree days.
> 
> The data showed that the Blackhawk reduced energy kW.h consumption by 350 kW.h per day or 6.5%. This reduction alone was enough to payback the unit in 1.6 years with a 61% 10 year ROI.
> 
> The unit was clearly providing capacitance to the building to improve the load factor, however, the effect on energy consumption is greater than I have observed in other types of power factor correction.
> 
> The Blackhawk power conditioner does not deserve the derogatory labels that have been used in this thread. Their data is better than your opinions.
> 
> I will email this study to interested parties. My bona fides include 25 years as an electric energy economist and executive, including appearances before multiple regulatory commissions.


Oh my God, someone make it stop.


----------



## Big John

Dave Gray said:


> ...The Blackhawk power conditioner does not deserve the derogatory labels that have been used in this thread...


 When a company is trying to con homeowners out of their money, they deserve to be called out as the thieves they are.


> ...Their data is better than your opinions....


 No. It really, really isn't.


----------



## HackWork

Dave Gray said:


> I have reviewed the operation of the Blackhawk power conditioner over a one month trial at large fitness facility in Edmonton, Alberta in cooperation with the City of Edmonton. Hourly energy consumption, peak kW and peak kVA were compared with the Blackhawk operating for 21 days and off for 10 days during July 2013. The effect of temperature on the data was accounted for using cooling degree days.
> 
> The data showed that the Blackhawk reduced energy kW.h consumption by 350 kW.h per day or 6.5%. This reduction alone was enough to payback the unit in 1.6 years with a 61% 10 year ROI.
> 
> The unit was clearly providing capacitance to the building to improve the load factor, however, the effect on energy consumption is greater than I have observed in other types of power factor correction.
> 
> The Blackhawk power conditioner does not deserve the derogatory labels that have been used in this thread. Their data is better than your opinions.
> 
> I will email this study to interested parties. My bona fides include 25 years as an electric energy economist and executive, including appearances before multiple regulatory commissions.


I've stood before the President (of my condo association) and Congress (the library) and I have almost 17 years as a semi-decent electrician and I could tell you that you are full of bologna.


----------



## Dave Gray

*Anonymous Aspersions*

With all due respect, I have posted real data from a real test using my real name. 

If you want to see the data and analysis I am happy to share same.


----------



## HackWork

Dave Gray said:


> With all due respect, I have posted real data from a real test using my real name.
> 
> If you want to see the data and analysis I am happy to share same.


You have posted lies.


----------



## ponyboy

Get em hack!


----------



## BBQ

Dave Gray said:


> With all due respect, I have posted real data from a real test using my real name.
> 
> If you want to see the data and analysis I am happy to share same.


Post it.


----------



## sbrn33

Dave Gray said:


> I have reviewed the operation of the Blackhawk power conditioner over a one month trial at large fitness facility in Edmonton, Alberta in cooperation with the City of Edmonton. Hourly energy consumption, peak kW and peak kVA were compared with the Blackhawk operating for 21 days and off for 10 days during July 2013. The effect of temperature on the data was accounted for using cooling degree days.
> 
> The data showed that the Blackhawk reduced energy kW.h consumption by 350 kW.h per day or 6.5%. This reduction alone was enough to payback the unit in 1.6 years with a 61% 10 year ROI.
> 
> The unit was clearly providing capacitance to the building to improve the load factor, however, the effect on energy consumption is greater than I have observed in other types of power factor correction.
> 
> The Blackhawk power conditioner does not deserve the derogatory labels that have been used in this thread. Their data is better than your opinions.
> 
> I will email this study to interested parties. My bona fides include 25 years as an electric energy economist and executive, including appearances before multiple regulatory commissions.


I is really hard to believe that the power in a gym in canada would be less in the summer. I bet they are really busy in june as compared to December or January. I guess what I am saying is how do you know the load was consistent. You should put that study out on here.


----------



## BBQ

https://www.geeinc.ca/index.php?main_page=page&id=6&zenid=efc2ab8e63187942fdd9f8e2b2f4a2c

Am I correct?


----------



## Zog

Dave Gray said:


> With all due respect, I have posted real data from a real test using my real name.
> 
> If you want to see the data and analysis I am happy to share same.


So the NIST study, which was done in a controlled environment, where the only variable was adding or removing PF caps is bogus but your one month study of a gym in Canada is science? You have a hundred different variables there.


----------



## BBQ

For those like me who do not know NIST, I looked it up

http://www.nist.gov/index.html

The National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) is an agency of the U.S. Department of Commerce.


----------



## Big John

Dave Gray said:


> With all due respect, I have posted real data from a real test using my real name.
> 
> If you want to see the data and analysis I am happy to share same.


 No, I don't care to see it, because this issue doesn't need a study, it doesn't need an analysis, it's dead-dog simple:

These devices change power factor. Power factor has absolutely nothing to do with how the utility bills home owners.

There is literally nothing you can say that will change that.


----------



## Dave Gray

*Test report Blackhawk Power Conditioner Edmonton, AB*

Report on operation of Blackhawk at Edmonton Recreation Facility.

To answer the obvious challenges.

No change in equipment or operations was noted by the City during the test. 
Weather data was sourced from Wolfram Alpha. 
Data was provided by the local distribution company.
July 1 was excluded from analysis as it is holiday in Canada. July 4 is not.

http://geeinc.ca/pdf2/Blackhawk_Ed_Test.pdf


----------



## Big John

Dave Gray said:


> ...http://geeinc.ca/pdf2/Blackhawk_Ed_Test.pdf


 This study mounts to _"We saw that power consumption dropped so that must be thanks to Blackhawk because we ruled out other causes by guessing."

_You've got no explanation of what the customer's electrical system was, or what loads where present, or what the duty cycle was on those loads. There's absolutely no way to determine from that study why power consumption dropped.


----------



## MWayne

circuitman1 said:


> this still really doesn't answer my question, my amprobe said the capacitors that were hooked up to the 240 volt line was drawing 5 amps, but the meter was not moving. that's my question, there was a load , but no meter movement, why? :whistling2:


Sounds like a tank circuit, where the capacitance was equally matched with some inductance and they were swapping power back and forth without any noticeable power being added from the line. Kind of like 2 kids fighting in the back seat of a car on a long road trip while mom and dad do their best to ignore them. 
Edit, FWIW, an induction motor shows both inductance and resistance to incoming power and if the right sized capacitor is added a RLC circuit is created. Wikipedia has an animation that illustrates how a RLC circuit works.


----------



## Dave Gray

*Blackhawk Power Study Edmonton Alberta*

Big John is correct that the duty cycles of equipment at the facility were not controlled or measured as part of the test. That would of course be a very difficult thing to do in the real world in an active facility with hundreds of pieces of equipment.

That is why the study first compared as long a periods as were available with matching length and days of the week, to ensure that the analysis captured the same type of activities, maintenance and operations in both periods. No significant changes in operation were noted by the operator of the facility.

The second analysis, the linear regression, allows one to adjust for the effect of temperature variations on the duty cycle of HVAC. This is also the correct way to determine if the apparatus is affecting energy consumption. The result of this test was that the Blackhawk was determined to have a negative effect on energy consumption (it made it go down) with a 95% confidence level 19 times out of 20 and the best, linear, unbiased estimate of that reduction was -350.4 kW.h per day or about 6%.

This, of course, is not proof. As in any experiment, you can only accumulate evidence. So if you want to think that the Blackhawk had nothing to do with reducing energy consumption in this test, go ahead. You stand a 5% chance, 1 time out of 20, of being right.


----------



## sbrn33

I like you Dave Gray, I really do. You remind me of my wife.


----------



## bkmichael65

These wonder devices have been tested in controlled environments and found to be just as much hokum as one with just a thimble full of electrical theory would suspect. I think most members of this forum would gather that you're either not very knowledgeable or not very ethical.


----------



## Wirenuting

Temperature variations on the duty cycle of HVAC... 
Now that's a mouthful being spewed out across a table.


----------



## Big John

Dave Gray said:


> ...This, of course, is not proof...


Not by a long shot.


> ...As in any experiment, you can only accumulate evidence...


 Right. But based on that experiment the honest answer would be "We don't know what happened." Not the conclusion in the report which is "The Blackhawk saves tons of money!"


> ...So if you want to think that the Blackhawk had nothing to do with reducing energy consumption in this test, go ahead. You stand a 5% chance, 1 time out of 20, of being right.


 I stand a 100% chance of being right, because I know what capacitors do for an electrical system, and I know what they don't do: 

Reducing power consumed by electrical loads is something they don't do and never will.


----------



## MichaelDean

Big John said:


> No, I don't care to see it, because this issue doesn't need a study, it doesn't need an analysis, it's dead-dog simple:
> 
> These devices change power factor. Power factor has absolutely nothing to do with how the utility bills home owners.
> 
> There is literally nothing you can say that will change that.


The unit is not just PF correction like most other companies. It has MOV'S wired across the 3 phases as well as neutral. With this configuration I have seen great results in many locations. I agree with you 100 % PF correction alone can only reduce consumption about 1%


----------



## BBQ

MichaelDean said:


> The unit is not just PF correction like most other companies. It has MOV'S wired across the 3 phases as well as neutral. With this configuration I have seen great results in many locations. I agree with you 100 % PF correction alone can only reduce consumption about 1%


OK, where was the power being used that the 'MOVs' saved?


----------



## JRaef

MichaelDean said:


> The unit is not just PF correction like most other companies. It has MOV'S wired across the 3 phases as well as neutral. With this configuration I have seen great results in many locations. I agree with you 100 % PF correction alone can only reduce consumption about 1%


Ooooooo Kaaaaaay...
So first we have capacitors saving energy, now we have MOVs having this magical power. What's next, ground rods as energy savers by pulling stray electrons out of the earth for free?


----------



## don_resqcapt19

MichaelDean said:


> ...It has MOV'S wired across the 3 phases as well as neutral. With this configuration I have seen great results in many locations. ..


Exactly how does that work?. What laws of physics permit that to work? Show us the formulas and math to prove it works.


----------



## Big John

MichaelDean said:


> The unit is not just PF correction like most other companies. It has MOV'S wired across the 3 phases as well as neutral...


 So does this, and it costs $4 at Harbor Freight:









> ...With this configuration I have seen great results in many locations....


 Great results of what?


> ...I agree with you 100 % PF correction alone can only reduce consumption about 1%


 That directly contradicts your study that claims 4%.

Further, 35kVAR of correction capacity is extremely small. I've installed and worked on systems necessary for industrial customers and they are many MVARs of correction capacity.

Using this calculator: Assuming this gym has a 480V service, and using your own numbers of 237kW of load, a 35kVAR system provides about 4-5% power factor correction. 

It's very unlikely that such a small change would even be enough to avoid any utility penalties if they existed, and the difference in I²R losses would be for a measly 18 amps, so their utility bill would not improve.

And your study admits this:


> The installed cost of the unit was $16,805.


 That makes this highway robbery, plain and simple.


----------



## sbrn33

MichaelDean said:


> The unit is not just PF correction like most other companies. It has MOV'S wired across the 3 phases as well as neutral. With this configuration I have seen great results in many locations. I agree with you 100 % PF correction alone can only reduce consumption about 1%


Why would you do this??? Do you not know any theory at all?
You are going to get your ass handed to you today.


----------



## circuitman1

these things are just like they are saying about smart meters spying on you , causing cancer ,& headaches just a bunch of bulls**t!


----------



## MichaelDean

don_resqcapt19 said:


> Exactly how does that work?. What laws of physics permit that to work? Show us the formulas and math to prove it works.


The MOV'S being wired across the phases helps balance them. Also the company here does not sell to home owners. The clients need hard data. Hourly measured kwh consumption. The company I work for quantifies this with facts. If there isn't savings there isn't payment. Numbers don't lie, people do. We will post more data in the future and you can analyze the results. We have done tests with just PF and just the MOV'S and only got positive results when they were wired together. Also some areas are charged for Kva and the unit has dropped that substantially.


----------



## MichaelDean

sbrn33 said:


> Why would you do this??? Do you not know any theory at all?
> You are going to get your ass handed to you today.


Obviously you know some theory. Until you test a unit yourself to actually be able to back up the things you believe. You are shooting from the hip because somebody has developed something you can't understand with a closed mind. Have a nice day and I will post more quantified data in a few days. Until then I won't waste energy talking with someone who can't see the facts in hard data.


----------



## bkmichael65

MichaelDean said:


> The MOV'S being wired across the phases helps balance them. Also the company here does not sell to home owners. The clients need hard data. Hourly measured kwh consumption. The company I work for quantifies this with facts. If there isn't savings there isn't payment. Numbers don't lie, people do. We will post more data in the future and you can analyze the results. We have done tests with just PF and just the MOV'S and only got positive results when they were wired together. Also some areas are charged for Kva and the unit has dropped that substantially.


You're half right. Numbers don't lie, but people can certainly try to present them in such a way to deceive others. Either you've been fooled by some unscrupulous individual or you are one yourself.


----------



## don_resqcapt19

MichaelDean said:


> The MOV'S being wired across the phases helps balance them. ...


How does it balance the phases? The only thing it can do is to shunt current somewhere. If they are shunting current somewhere to balance the phases, then the consumption goes up, not down.


----------



## Big John

MichaelDean said:


> The MOV'S being wired across the phases helps balance them.


 No they don't.


> ...Also the company here does not sell to home owners...


 That's a good thing. But there are still customers not billed in kVA who would see absolutely no benefit from these devices.


> The clients need hard data. Hourly measured kwh consumption.


 Which has nothing to do with how these units function.


> The company I work for quantifies this with facts.


 Seeing the substance of that study, and reading things like "MOVs balance phases" I find this increasingly difficult to believe.


> Numbers don't lie, people do.


 People can intentionally manipulate numbers, like in the study you posted.


> Also some areas are charged for Kva and the unit has dropped that substantially.


 That is literally the only thing these units might be good for. It means that anyone you sold them to who were being billed for kWh got nothing but a box of snake-oil. 

Further, as I said before, when it comes to actually attempting to correct power factor, a box full of a couple kVAR of static capacitors is a poor way to do it, especially for the price you quoted.


MichaelDean said:


> ...Until then I won't waste energy talking with someone who can't see the facts in hard data.


 I directly addressed some of your hard facts and data in this post, and you've conveniently ignored it.


----------



## MichaelDean

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[/IMG]







Great results of what? That directly contradicts your study that claims 4%.

Further, 35kVAR of correction capacity is extremely small. I've installed and worked on systems necessary for industrial customers and they are many MVARs of correction capacity.

Using this calculator: Assuming this gym has a 480V service, and using your own numbers of 237kW of load, a 35kVAR system provides about 4-5% power factor correction. 

It's very unlikely that such a small change would even be enough to avoid any utility penalties if they existed, and the difference in I²R losses would be for a measly 18 amps, so their utility bill would not improve.

And your study admits this:
That makes this highway robbery, plain and simple.[/QUOTE]
For one thing it's a swimming pool with attached jim and meeting rooms. The unit was 30% undersized as we're not able to get a Kvar reading before the test, it actually needed 51 Kvar. That being Sade you will need to redo your math as it is a 600 volt facility something I'm sure you don't come across very often. The electrical engineer for the city used to have the same view as you. That has now changed. In the test with the Blackhawk on there were several days in the high 80 degree range. With the unit off the highest temp was in the low 70s. The unit still averaged a reduction of 273 kwh less. This is hard data not gobble **** as you Speak of. If you take the hot days out of the equation the reduction was 443 kwh a day.


----------



## MichaelDean

Big John said:


> No they don't. That's a good thing. But there are still customers not billed in kVA who would see absolutely no benefit from these devices. Which has nothing to do with how these units function. Seeing the substance of that study, and reading things like "MOVs balance phases" I find this increasingly difficult to believe. People can intentionally manipulate numbers, like in the study you posted. That is literally the only thing these units might be good for. It means that anyone you sold them to who were being billed for kWh got nothing but a box of snake-oil.
> 
> Further, as I said before, when it comes to actually attempting to correct power factor, a box full of a couple kVAR of static capacitors is a poor way to do it, especially for the price you quoted. I directly addressed some of your hard facts and data in this post, and you've conveniently ignored it.


The numbers were taken bye the city. We were only given them. They analyzed them as well and came up with the same numbers. Like I said Numbers don't lie people do. In other provinces there is a large charge for poor PF sometimes as high as $5000.00 per month


----------



## MichaelDean

Big John said:


> No they don't. That's a good thing. But there are still customers not billed in kVA who would see absolutely no benefit from these devices. Which has nothing to do with how these units function. Seeing the substance of that study, and reading things like "MOVs balance phases" I find this increasingly difficult to believe. People can intentionally manipulate numbers, like in the study you posted. That is literally the only thing these units might be good for. It means that anyone you sold them to who were being billed for kWh got nothing but a box of snake-oil.
> 
> Further, as I said before, when it comes to actually attempting to correct power factor, a box full of a couple kVAR of static capacitors is a poor way to do it, especially for the price you quoted. I directly addressed some of your hard facts and data in this post, and you've conveniently ignored it.


And you conveniently ignore hard data, so have a nice weekend.


----------



## don_resqcapt19

MichaelDean said:


> And you conveniently ignore hard data, so have a nice weekend.


And you ignore the laws of physics.


----------



## Wirenuting

MichaelDean said:


> 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


Ok, I see what your saying. 
It makes perfect sense now that you posted it this way.


----------



## Big John

MichaelDean said:


> ...The unit was 30% undersized as we're not able to get a Kvar reading before the test, it actually needed 51 Kvar...You will need to redo your math as it is a 600 volt facility something I'm sure you don't come across very often.


600V industrial systems are common in the northeast. I've worked on them for years. So to improve my math:

If only 51kVAR of correction was needed to put your customer at unity, it means their PF was already 0.95. According to your study the customer was on the DAS TOU billing schedule that only penalized them if they went below 0.9 

Further, with 237kW at 600V your current only changes by 12A between 0.95 and unity power factor so the I²R losses are even less.


> ...This is hard data not gobble **** as you speak of. If you take the hot days out of the equation the reduction was 443 kwh a day.


 You have not presented any data to explain how your device actually saved your customer money in power factor penalties.

Nor have you presented any data to explain your claim that this device significantly reduces power consumption.


----------



## Jlarson

The guy is a tard. :lol: 


I liked the BS about the MOV's. :lol:


----------



## Jlarson

don_resqcapt19 said:


> And you ignore the laws of physics.


Eh. They are more like guidelines anyway.


----------



## Wirenuting

Jlarson said:


> Eh. They are more like guidelines anyway.


 The Guardian of Forever






Since before your sun burned hot in the sky And since before your race was born, 
I have awaited a question.


----------



## Big John

Jlarson said:


> The guy is a tard. :lol:
> 
> I liked the BS about the MOV's. :lol:


 I don't know if it's just because of my user history, but if I Google "Blackhawk Powerhouse" this thread is the very first thing in the list. :thumbup:

Hopefully would make someone do their homework before wildly wasting money on this mess.


----------



## Zog

MichaelDean said:


> And you conveniently ignore hard data, so have a nice weekend.


Your hard data, as you state, shows a 4% savings with a 5% margin of error. So even if your "research " had any validity at all and didn't contradict basic electrical principles, your study is worthless.


----------



## Dave Gray

*Insults are not argument*

I am reminded of sitting across from an electrical engineer from a major oil company who was adamant that you could never achieve a perfect power factor for a pump jack motor. This was while he had in his hands a report with two months of 15 minute interval data from a test of our regenerative drive system with 5000 recordings of 1.0 power factor.

I don't care that you don't understand why the Blackhawk saves energy. Point of fact, it does. 

It infuriates me that you feel no compunction to slagging someone's product with nothing more than your prejudices and lazy boy opinions.

Be smug in your beliefs as the world passes you by.


----------



## don_resqcapt19

Dave Gray said:


> ...
> 
> I don't care that you don't understand why the Blackhawk saves energy. Point of fact, it does.
> 
> ...


Show us the technical theory that makes it work. Not just that is has MOVs...the exact details that let this product do what the laws of physic say it can't do.


----------



## Big John

Dave Gray said:


> ...I don't care that you don't understand why the Blackhawk saves energy. Point of fact, it does....


 You keep saying this. You have yet to explain using established electrical theory how that is true.


> ...It infuriates me that you feel no compunction to slagging someone's product....


 You're pissed that people point out the technical problems with your claims? Tough. The burden of proof is on you.

If your product actually does what you say, you should be able to do a much better job explaining how it works than you have so far. You owe at least that much to your customers.


----------



## JRaef

Big John said:


> The burden of _*REAL proof, not anecdotal evidence or vague "calculations" with margins of error greater than purported savings,*_ is on you.


Fixed it for him, because he apparently doesn't really get it... :blink:


----------



## circuitman1

i thought MOV's were used for surge protection.new one own me!


----------



## HackWork

Dave Gray said:


> I am reminded of sitting across from an electrical engineer from a major oil company who was adamant that you could never achieve a perfect power factor for a pump jack motor. This was while he had in his hands a report with two months of 15 minute interval data from a test of our regenerative drive system with 5000 recordings of 1.0 power factor.


 So you mean to say that guy didn't buy your line of BS either? Who woulda thunkit?!?! :whistling2:


----------



## FrunkSlammer

Dig in deeper boys..

Patent application title: ELECTRICAL ENERGY SAVING SYSTEM


----------



## Wirenuting

FrunkSlammer said:


> Dig in deeper boys.. Patent application title: ELECTRICAL ENERGY SAVING SYSTEM


 Could never fly. Your line to A phase and your line to Neutral are longer then B & C phase. This will cause an imbalance and to fix the you need to.. 




oops; sorry there is a 3 sentence limit.


----------



## JRaef

Interesting arrangement. Notice that the caps are not fused and not connected in a Wye with reference to ground. Most likely they do it that way to avoid the cost of the fuses and the required maintenance, then avoiding potential of damaging anything on the load side with a transient voltage spike CREATED by the other two sets of caps if one of them fails, a down side of an unfused grounded wye connection. But by using this connection, this is highly susceptible to incoming transients damaging the caps. Hence the MOVs, which are NOT there to "balance the voltages" but rather to prevent the useless caps from failing in a matter of hours due to grid switching transients and nearby lightning strikes. Clever ruse... Then nice spin doctoring to make it sound as though the MOVs are serving some sort of additional purpose other than allowing these things to last out the warranty.


----------



## Paulusgnome

Well that tears it, thanks Mr Frunk. The Blackhawk Powerhouse is indeed just another scam device designed to separate the uneducated from their money - capacitors in a box with a few MOVs thrown in to beat back any surges.
One wonders if the posters Dave Gray and Michael Dean will have the decency to go back to the gym where this device was installed and fess up that they have been duped? Or were they in on the scam from the outset?


----------



## sbrn33

Probably would be a decent surge arrestor. I would give them $60 for it in the right application.


----------



## Big John

sbrn33 said:


> Probably would be a decent surge arrestor. I would give them $60 for it in the right application.


 Hell, chip in another $16,745 and they'll even install it for you. :blink:


----------



## Jlarson

Big John said:


> Hell, chip in another $16,745 and they'll even install it for you. :blink:


Plus a cool $25,678 for shipping and handling. Call in the next 10 minuets and we'll throw in a case of sham wows. :laughing:


----------



## Je2LBrooks

I thought you were talking hockey...


----------



## Je2LBrooks




----------



## Wirenuting

Since I'm off today I searched the big orange store and didn't see this magic box on the shelf. 
So it mustn't be junk after all. 
I'll hit K-mar later.


----------



## Porpoise13

*Blackhawk Powerhouse*



bkmichael65 said:


> This is just a scam. You're charged for Kilowatt hours or true power used and this will not change the amount of power you actually consume. If something sounds too good to be true, then it probably is



I can tell you and anyone on here EMPHATICALLY that this product DOES WORK! True...I am now a dealer...But I am also an Electrician. Please before you and anyone on here goes about trashing this device please do your homework! This is a unique device in that it "Conditions" the electrical load across all 3 phases, balancing it and making the circuit(s) much more efficient! If you want testimonials from other electricians I can provide them along with a LONG list of happy customers!

Chris Kirkland
Tampa, FL


----------



## NacBooster29

Porpoise13 said:


> I can tell you and anyone on here EMPHATICALLY that this product DOES WORK! True...I am now a dealer...But I am also an Electrician. Please before you and anyone on here goes about trashing this device please do your homework! This is a unique device in that it "Conditions" the electrical load across all 3 phases, balancing it and making the circuit(s) much more efficient! If you want testimonials from other electricians I can provide them along with a LONG list of happy customers!
> 
> Chris Kirkland
> Tampa, FL


Chris , 
I find it EXTREMELY difficult believing testimonials from a "dealer" .
I for one would suspect of these devices were as wonderous as described utility companies would be backing them, and even offering rebates. 
The technical descriptions given are vague at best, and the actual diagrams given do not provide any back up to these claims. It seems like a 3 phase surge arrestor. With a few caps in the circuitry. 
If there is a better wiring diagram out there please provide one. 
Also real world installs do not offer much of a control. As we know every scientific experiment needs a control and a variable. It seems to myself and most members here there is a lack of a control for the real world experiment. 
I would think in the interest of your own business , you did more research than some guy saying trust me it works. 
Surely you can understand the skepticism. And I for one look forward to hearing back.


----------



## don_resqcapt19

Porpoise13 said:


> I can tell you and anyone on here EMPHATICALLY that this product DOES WORK! True...I am now a dealer...But I am also an Electrician. Please before you and anyone on here goes about trashing this device please do your homework! This is a unique device in that it "Conditions" the electrical load across all 3 phases, balancing it and making the circuit(s) much more efficient! If you want testimonials from other electricians I can provide them along with a LONG list of happy customers!
> 
> Chris Kirkland
> Tampa, FL


What I want to see is the electrical theory that tells us how this device can violate the commonly accepted laws of physics.


----------



## bkmichael65

Porpoise13 said:


> I can tell you and anyone on here EMPHATICALLY that this product DOES WORK! True...I am now a dealer...But I am also an Electrician. Please before you and anyone on here goes about trashing this device please do your homework! This is a unique device in that it "Conditions" the electrical load across all 3 phases, balancing it and making the circuit(s) much more efficient! If you want testimonials from other electricians I can provide them along with a LONG list of happy customers!
> 
> Chris Kirkland
> Tampa, FL


If you have even a tiny bit of electrical theory under your belt, you should be ashamed of yourself. Schematics for your unique device are in one of the above posts; not much homework left to do. These devices have been tested independently and shown to be snake oil. If you want to run your sales pitch to electricians, you should just be honest and appeal to someone's greed and tell them how much money they can make by gaining the trust of the unsuspecting and selling them $50 worth of components in a neat little package


----------



## JRaef

Anyone who has invested their hard earned money in something like this has a vested interest in making sure the truth is suppressed or buried under unscientific "testimonials", otherwise he can never recoup his foolish investment. So any report from such an investor is immediately disqualified as a conflict of interest. We on the other hand have NO vested interest in opposing these scams, other than protecting the ignorant public from them because we know they are scams. In fact many people here COULD make money installing these scam systems, but their conscience prevents them from doing so. 

Porpoise13, I'm sorry you did not come here to get the truth before you pulled the trigger on an investment that will ultimately become a financial disaster for you. That is, unless you can find enough ignorant unsuspecting fools. I will refrain however from wishing you good luck in that, because your good luck can only result in someone else wasting THEIR hard earned money.


----------



## Porpoise13

*Blackhawk Powerhouse*



NacBooster29 said:


> Chris ,
> I find it EXTREMELY difficult believing testimonials from a "dealer" .
> I for one would suspect of these devices were as wonderous as described utility companies would be backing them, and even offering rebates.
> The technical descriptions given are vague at best, and the actual diagrams given do not provide any back up to these claims. It seems like a 3 phase surge arrestor. With a few caps in the circuitry.
> If there is a better wiring diagram out there please provide one.
> Also real world installs do not offer much of a control. As we know every scientific experiment needs a control and a variable. It seems to myself and most members here there is a lack of a control for the real world experiment.
> I would think in the interest of your own business , you did more research than some guy saying trust me it works.
> Surely you can understand the skepticism. And I for one look forward to hearing back.


I certainly understand everyone's skepticism here...I was just as skeptical... So much so that I actually took a trip and met with the inventor in Tennessee. This device has been under development for numerous years and has several patents already. I've seen and talked to first hand the Engineers and Electricians who were as skeptical as everyone here. I'm not an Engineer...but I did study electrical theory and even worked as an Electrician. This device works. I'll be honest and say I don't know all the physics behind it. But, I encourage EVERYONE here not to just take my word for it but to test and evaluate it themselves! I am willing to put my money where my mouth is. I'm willing to work with ANY and ALL honest Electricians on here to prove it does or doesn't do what it says! 

*To summarize, The Black Hawk Powerhouse:*


Balances voltage across all phases (legs)
Balances the load and line harmonics between phases
Reduces Reactive Power loss
Reduces spikes in your energy demand, lowering your peak demand charges
Reduces device vibration, noise and HEAT (motors are more efficient & run cooler)
Provides surge protection (absorbing power spikes up to 50,000 volts)
Increases lumens (amount of brightness) in your existing lighting system
Lowers lighting maintenance costs by extending the life of bulbs and ballasts
Requires no special cooling or air conditioned environment
Helps protect computers, operating systems, timers, relays, burglar alarms, surveillance cameras and other low voltage equipment that is sensitive to power spikes or low voltage

Video Link- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ydrgd-VBZ0A


Chris Kirkland
Positive Energy
Tampa, Florida


----------



## Porpoise13

bkmichael65 said:


> If you have even a tiny bit of electrical theory under your belt, you should be ashamed of yourself. Schematics for your unique device are in one of the above posts; not much homework left to do. These devices have been tested independently and shown to be snake oil. If you want to run your sales pitch to electricians, you should just be honest and appeal to someone's greed and tell them how much money they can make by gaining the trust of the unsuspecting and selling them $50 worth of components in a neat little package



Sorry...Those schematics are NOT this device! So do your research before you do your replies... 

Here's an informational link for all doubting Thomas's... 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ydrgd-VBZ0A

Do not take my word for it...As Ronald Reagan used to say Trust but verify... Test it for yourselves and prove me wrong!

I'm willing to work with any honest Electrician here!

Chris Kirkland
Positive Energy


----------



## Porpoise13

JRaef said:


> Anyone who has invested their hard earned money in something like this has a vested interest in making sure the truth is suppressed or buried under unscientific "testimonials", otherwise he can never recoup his foolish investment. So any report from such an investor is immediately disqualified as a conflict of interest. We on the other hand have NO vested interest in opposing these scams, other than protecting the ignorant public from them because we know they are scams. In fact many people here COULD make money installing these scam systems, but their conscience prevents them from doing so.
> 
> Porpoise13, I'm sorry you did not come here to get the truth before you pulled the trigger on an investment that will ultimately become a financial disaster for you. That is, unless you can find enough ignorant unsuspecting fools. I will refrain however from wishing you good luck in that, because your good luck can only result in someone else wasting THEIR hard earned money.



There none so blind as those who refuse to see...

Please do your homework before you start trashing things you don't understand...

Info link- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ydrgd-VBZ0A

Let me know if you want to order one...


----------



## Porpoise13

*Blackhawk Powerhouse*



don_resqcapt19 said:


> What I want to see is the electrical theory that tells us how this device can violate the commonly accepted laws of physics.



How about something better...How about video proof it works...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ydrgd-VBZ0A

Chris Kirkland
Positive Energy
Tampa FL


----------



## Jlarson

:lol:


----------



## Paulusgnome

Porpoise13 said:


> Sorry...Those schematics are NOT this device! So do your research before you do your replies...
> 
> 
> Porpoise13 said:
> 
> 
> 
> So, Porpoise13, the schematic diagram posted, which is taken from this patent application :
> 
> *Patent application title: ELECTRICAL ENERGY SAVING SYSTEM*
> 
> * Inventors: Jerry B. Johnson (Pleasant View, TN, US)
> Assignees: Black Hawk Energy Products LLC
> IPC8 Class: AH02H904FI
> USPC Class: 361118
> Class name: Safety and protection of systems and devices high voltage dissipation (e.g., lightning arrester) surge prevention (e.g., choke coil)
> Publication date: 2010-04-15
> Patent application number: 20100091423 *
> 
> 
> You are saying that this schematic is not the correct one for the Blackhawk Powerhouse energy saving device?
> 
> I call BS on this.
> 
> How many different power saving devices does this inventor have, and why would he patent one which does not and cannot work according to established electrical theory, and leave the one which does work unpatented?
> 
> Perhaps you can enlighten us then by posting the correct schematic?
> ​
Click to expand...


----------



## don_resqcapt19

Porpoise13 said:


> How about something better...How about video proof it works...
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ydrgd-VBZ0A
> 
> Chris Kirkland
> Positive Energy
> Tampa FL


A youtube video is in no way a substitute for the technical theory that lets this device do something that the accepted laws of physics say it can't do. Without the technical theory, I will continue to say it is not possible, no matter what videos or data are posted.


----------



## circuitman1

what has me puzzled is why people think you can change the laws of physics.:laughing::no: as PT barnum put it "there's a sucker born every minute."


----------



## sbrn33

I would like to know how it does 7 and 8 both.


----------



## Porpoise13

*Blackhawk Powerhouse*



JRaef said:


> Anyone who has invested their hard earned money in something like this has a vested interest in making sure the truth is suppressed or buried under unscientific "testimonials", otherwise he can never recoup his foolish investment. So any report from such an investor is immediately disqualified as a conflict of interest. We on the other hand have NO vested interest in opposing these scams, other than protecting the ignorant public from them because we know they are scams. In fact many people here COULD make money installing these scam systems, but their conscience prevents them from doing so.
> 
> Porpoise13, I'm sorry you did not come here to get the truth before you pulled the trigger on an investment that will ultimately become a financial disaster for you. That is, unless you can find enough ignorant unsuspecting fools. I will refrain however from wishing you good luck in that, because your good luck can only result in someone else wasting THEIR hard earned money.


What makes you say I didn't do my homework??? You don't even know me!!! I went so far as to meet the inventor and speak with the Engineers behind this device! I've seen the patents...I've spoken to the happy customers...I've read the numerous testimonials...and I've seen first hand how it works! You speak out of ignorance! There are none so blind as those who refuse to see...Please do your own homework before you accuse others of not doing theirs! 

Video info link-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ydrgd-VBZ0A

Chris Kirkland
Positive Energy
Tampa FL


----------



## sbrn33

Seems like a decent little surge arrestor. How much is it? $30 maybe $40 bucks?


----------



## Porpoise13

Paulusgnome said:


> Porpoise13 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry...Those schematics are NOT this device! So do your research before you do your replies...
> 
> 
> Porpoise13 said:
> 
> 
> 
> So, Porpoise13, the schematic diagram posted, which is taken from this patent application :
> 
> *Patent application title: ELECTRICAL ENERGY SAVING SYSTEM*
> 
> * Inventors: Jerry B. Johnson (Pleasant View, TN, US)
> Assignees: Black Hawk Energy Products LLC
> IPC8 Class: AH02H904FI
> USPC Class: 361118
> Class name: Safety and protection of systems and devices high voltage dissipation (e.g., lightning arrester) surge prevention (e.g., choke coil)
> Publication date: 2010-04-15
> Patent application number: 20100091423 *
> 
> 
> You are saying that this schematic is not the correct one for the Blackhawk Powerhouse energy saving device?
> 
> I call BS on this.
> 
> How many different power saving devices does this inventor have, and why would he patent one which does not and cannot work according to established electrical theory, and leave the one which does work unpatented?
> 
> Perhaps you can enlighten us then by posting the correct schematic?
> ​
> 
> 
> 
> I don't have a schematic on it...but if you simply look at what was posted and what is in the video you can see with your own eyes these are not the same!
> 
> I do know the inventor has MULTIPLE inventions on this device...So perhaps the one listed is different. But, again...as I've said... look at the video and look at the schematic...they are not the same...I also do not see any diodes or frequency modulators in your schematic which makes me suspect as to this not being correct.
> 
> It it obvious I won't persuade anyone here as to it's validity...So, I will continue to sell to those who do believe, and continue to prove everyone else WRONG.
> 
> Chris Kirkland
> Positive Energy
> Tampa, FL
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## sbrn33

That video says nothing about how it works. So the owner tricked one hick janitor into thinking hes was saving money. Probably comparing fall the summer. 
Although it does have some really cool green lights so it must be good.


----------



## Jlarson

Wirenuting said:


> The Guardian of Forever
> View attachment 29395
> Since before your sun burned hot in the sky And since before your race was born,
> I have awaited a question.


:laughing: 

I was watching original trek episodes the other day while wiring VFD's.


----------



## Big John

Porpoise13 said:


> What makes you say I didn't do my homework...?


 That you're making an impossible claim. 

In the electrical field, watts are work. You're claiming to take an appliance that requires a certain amount of watts to do its job, and you can mysteriously make it do the same job with fewer watts. See post #35.

Not a single person in this thread has offered an explanation of how that is possible, despite people with financial interests hiding behind rhetoric like "There are none so blind as those who refuse to see."

We can all see. You just aren't showing us anything.


----------



## Jlarson

Just cause you do your homework doesn't mean you got it right. 

Hint, you didn't get it right. :lol:


----------



## JRaef

Porpoise13 said:


> What makes you say I didn't do my homework??? You don't even know me!!!


Fair enough criticism, I apologize for the harsh tone of my earlier response.

But here are my opinions as rebuttal:


> I went so far as to meet the inventor and speak with the Engineers behind this device!


So you met with the scam artist and the people he pays, and they told you it was not a scam. Solid evidence if I've ever heard it... _<sarcasm in case you are unaware of it>._ That's like saying that the lemon car you bought cannot possibly be a lemon, because the used car salesman who sold it to you and the mechanics working for him SAID it was not a lemon. 


> I've seen the patents...


I can get a patent on a bath tub as a bus bar as long as I'm the first one to do so, that does not mean it is a good idea to use it as one... In case you were not aware, the US Patent Office does not even test patents, all they do is investigate if anyone else has done it first.


> I've spoken to the happy customers...I've read the numerous testimonials...


As I have said in this forum several times, in my experience with things like this, people who have been scammed HATE to reveal that they know it was a scam once the evidence doesn't support it, so they will provide glowing testimonials supporting their own decision. It's human nature to not want to admit we were duped and be embarrassed.



> and I've seen first hand how it works! You speak out of ignorance!


If you cannot describe HOW it works, your OPINION on what you think you witnessed is, to put it bluntly, worthless as evidence. I do not speak out of ignorance, I speak out of 30+ years of experience and training in Electrical Engineering, for which I received a university degree. Your magic box is purporting to violate the laws of physics. In my professional opinion and experience, this is impossible.



> There are none so blind as those who refuse to see...


Physician, heal thyself...



> Please do your own homework before you accuse others of not doing theirs!


I did. It's called a Bachelor of Science in Electrical Engineering.

_Worthless video propaganda link removed._


----------



## Porpoise13

*Blackhawk Powerhouse*

In reply to all the FLAT EARTHERS here...Here is your data...with video's on the performance of the Blackhawk Powerhouse. I've tried to be professional about this but too many have resorted to name calling and insults... So...I don't expect to convince those folks. But...to all that are truly open and ready have their eyes opened and to take the RED PILL... Here is your evidence this system works. 

To first understand the concept of this device and how it works it is a good idea to read this article by GE. This explains KVAR... and its relation to power circuits. This is the basis for this device.

http://www.p3connect.net/includes/howpowerfactorworks.pdf

So...Let me first clue all of you in on here...Power Companies don't give a rats ass if your home or your company are energy efficient! They only care about one thing...Selling you Kws'... Hence the Power trolls who are constantly denying this technology. 

Here's 2 videos proving it in operation-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHZbXwMDCxo&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=T4Ki4dZ609g

So an explanation of how this device works is as follows-

All power coming into a facility is called Apparent Power and the power we use is Real Power. Some power is lost to ground and this is called Reactive Power. The Black Hawk Powerhouse unit captures this voltage and feeds it back through the system. The goal is to take Apparent Power and Real Power and "bring them closer together" called your Power Factor. (PF)

To do this, The Black Hawk Powerhouse adds capacitance to the system through a series of capacitors, which captures the Reactive Power lost to ground and puts it back into the system. Once the BlackHawk is installed, it is not unusual to see power factor numbers maintained above 95.

So in essence the better your Power Factor the more efficient your circuit is... But the proof is in the pudding as they say...

So here's a website with Drawings, graphs, testimonials, and schematics...

http://www.blackhawkest.com/index.html

This is my last post on this...As I'm sure I won't convince the so called "Experts" on this topic. I'll just continue to market and sell to happy customers who are eager to share their success stories. If anyone is interested I'd be happy to share them with you. Also, I don't expect anyone on here to take my word for everything I've said...Do you own homework and find out for yourself like I did. I was once like you and just as skeptical...

Chris Kirkland
Positive Energy
Tampa FL


----------



## robnj772

Porpoise13 said:


> In reply to all the FLAT EARTHERS here...Here is your data...with video's on the performance of the Blackhawk Powerhouse. I've tried to be professional about this but too many have resorted to name calling and insults... So...I don't expect to convince those folks. But...to all that are truly open and ready have their eyes opened and to take the RED PILL... Here is your evidence this system works. To first understand the concept of this device and how it works it is a good idea to read this article by GE. This explains KVAR... and its relation to power circuits. This is the basis for this device. http://www.p3connect.net/includes/howpowerfactorworks.pdf So...Let me first clue all of you in on here...Power Companies don't give a rats ass if your home or your company are energy efficient! They only care about one thing...Selling you Kws'... Hence the Power trolls who are constantly denying this technology. Here's 2 videos proving it in operation- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHZbXwMDCxo&feature=player_embedded http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=T4Ki4dZ609g So an explanation of how this device works is as follows- All power coming into a facility is called Apparent Power and the power we use is Real Power. Some power is lost to ground and this is called Reactive Power. The Black Hawk Powerhouse unit captures this voltage and feeds it back through the system. The goal is to take Apparent Power and Real Power and "bring them closer together" called your Power Factor. (PF) To do this, The Black Hawk Powerhouse adds capacitance to the system through a series of capacitors, which captures the Reactive Power lost to ground and puts it back into the system. Once the BlackHawk is installed, it is not unusual to see power factor numbers maintained above 95. So in essence the better your Power Factor the more efficient your circuit is... But the proof is in the pudding as they say... So here's a website with Drawings, graphs, testimonials, and schematics... http://www.blackhawkest.com/index.html This is my last post on this...As I'm sure I won't convince the so called "Experts" on this topic. I'll just continue to market and sell to happy customers who are eager to share their success stories. If anyone is interested I'd be happy to share them with you. Also, I don't expect anyone on here to take my word for everything I've said...Do you own homework and find out for yourself like I did. I was once like you and just as skeptical... Chris Kirkland Positive Energy Tampa FL


SNAKE OIL

Every electrician knows that this is a scam.

This topic was banned I had thought.


----------



## bkmichael65

Porpoise13 said:


> In reply to all the FLAT EARTHERS here...Here is your data...with video's on the performance of the Blackhawk Powerhouse. I've tried to be professional about this but too many have resorted to name calling and insults... So...I don't expect to convince those folks. But...to all that are truly open and ready have their eyes opened and to take the RED PILL... Here is your evidence this system works.
> 
> To first understand the concept of this device and how it works it is a good idea to read this article by GE. This explains KVAR... and its relation to power circuits. This is the basis for this device.
> 
> http://www.p3connect.net/includes/howpowerfactorworks.pdf
> 
> So...Let me first clue all of you in on here...Power Companies don't give a rats ass if your home or your company are energy efficient! They only care about one thing...Selling you Kws'... Hence the Power trolls who are constantly denying this technology.
> 
> Here's 2 videos proving it in operation-
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHZbXwMDCxo&feature=player_embedded
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=T4Ki4dZ609g
> 
> So an explanation of how this device works is as follows-
> 
> All power coming into a facility is called Apparent Power and the power we use is Real Power. Some power is lost to ground and this is called Reactive Power. The Black Hawk Powerhouse unit captures this voltage and feeds it back through the system. The goal is to take Apparent Power and Real Power and "bring them closer together" called your Power Factor. (PF)
> 
> To do this, The Black Hawk Powerhouse adds capacitance to the system through a series of capacitors, which captures the Reactive Power lost to ground and puts it back into the system. Once the BlackHawk is installed, it is not unusual to see power factor numbers maintained above 95.
> 
> So in essence the better your Power Factor the more efficient your circuit is... But the proof is in the pudding as they say...
> 
> So here's a website with Drawings, graphs, testimonials, and schematics...
> 
> http://www.blackhawkest.com/index.html
> 
> This is my last post on this...As I'm sure I won't convince the so called "Experts" on this topic. I'll just continue to market and sell to happy customers who are eager to share their success stories. If anyone is interested I'd be happy to share them with you. Also, I don't expect anyone on here to take my word for everything I've said...Do you own homework and find out for yourself like I did. I was once like you and just as skeptical...
> 
> Chris Kirkland
> Positive Energy
> Tampa FL


Maybe you're not a swindler, your explanation of reactive power points more towards a lack of knowledge. You really should read up on reactive power. It is not lost to ground, but is merely power flowing back and forth from the source to load without any transfer of energy. With a poor power factor there is a higher current which can result in some heat loss through the circuit, but that's the extent of it. The only folks concerned about power factor are the utilities, that's why they penalize factories that have a low power factor


----------



## JRaef

Porpoise13 said:


> *Some power is lost to ground and this is called Reactive Power. *The Black Hawk Powerhouse unit captures this voltage and feeds it back through the system.... Balance of drivel clipped


There's the snake oil right there, buried in an avalanche of truth. That's exactly HOW scammers work their scams, right out of the Grifter's Handbook. Spew forth a lot of irrelevant true statements and in the middle of them, slip in a lie that supports the scam. Most people will accept the entire pile as truth because they don't want to parse each and every statement on their own. But because MOST of what they are seeing / hearing they know to be true, they make the leap of faith that it all is. 

Reactive power has NOTHING whatsoever to do with being "lost to ground". Blatant falsehood, but necessary to make you believe the core scam, that they somehow are protecting you from the BIGGER scam that is being perpetrated by "the Power Companies". That, by the way, is chapter two in the Grifter's Handbook; create a fictitious scam that someone ELSE is doing to the victims, then convince them that YOU are their "knight in shining armor" and that anyone who calls you on your BS is complicit in the bigger scam. Watch "The Sting" again.

Textbook...

By the way, I HOPE that our scammers are done as promised, so this was NOT directed at them. I posted this for the benefit of anyone else who hopefully Googles their scam product and finds this discussion. Unfortunately, the grifters will most likely just change the name of the product now and pop up again, looking for new "investors".


----------



## don_resqcapt19

I still like this claim better...probably even works better in selling the products too.


> At the core of the *Power Optimizer™* *energy saving device* is our patented semiconductor chip. This chip utilizes specific wavelengths of infrared light to stabilize the vibration state of "spinning" electrons.
> Stabilizing the electrons, which form electric current actually reduces the heat-emitting and power-robbing collisions that normally occur as the electric current moves from the source to the desired load. Reducing these collisions creates a more efficient electric current.


Much more creative than saying you storing the reactive power and returning it to the grid.


----------



## ponyboy

Ladies and gentlemen, attention please 
Come in close so everyone can see 
I got a tale to tell 
A listen don't cost a dime 
And if you believe that we're gonna get along just fine 

Now I've been travelin' all around 
I heard trouble's come to your town 
Well I've got a little somethin' 
Guaranteed to ease your mind 
It's call Snake Oil y'all 
It's been around for a long, long time 

Say, your crops'll burn if it don't rain soon 
Ain't seen a drop since the tenth of June 
Well I can open up the sky 
People never fear 
If you ain't impressed yet, just tell me what you wanna hear 

Well you lost your farm so you moved to town 
You get a job, they shut the factory down 
Now you sit around all day long feelin' sad and blue 
You need Snake Oil y'all, tell you what I'm gonna do 

I can heal the sick, I can mend the lame 
And the blind shall see again, it's all the same 

Well ain't your President good to you 
Knocked 'em dead in Libya, Grenada too 
Now he's taking his show a little further down the line 
Well, 'tween me and him people, you're gonna get along just fine

"Snake Oil"
Steve Earle


----------



## FrunkSlammer

I figured out it a was scam when all the "believers" came out of nowhere to profess it's truthiness

Funny how that goes.


----------



## robnj772

FrunkSlammer said:


> I figured out it a was scam when all the "believers" came out of nowhere to profess it's truthiness Funny how that goes.


Yes and all the "believers" joined recently and only ever posted in this thread


----------



## SrobenhorstworksLLC

*Black Hawk Power House*



sprint23 said:


> We are on a demand meter. When we first opened (13 years ago), They didn't put us on a demand meter and our bill was $900-1000 a month. After about six months, they came in and put the demand meter in and our bill went up to $1500. On their website, it claims to reduce peak load charges. If it was a scam, why would they be willing to install at no money out of my pocket? thanks


They are willing to place the unit because of the reduction in price. The amount saved actually pays in most cases more than what it would be to finance it. I had a buddy recently get one installed and 2 months latter he bought 2 additional unit's and swears by them. One 8 unit apartment, one 12 unit complex and a 24 suit office complex in Wisconsin.


----------



## Big John

:lol: It never ends. It's a good thing "you have a buddy" who "swears by them." I've got a friend who swears that wearing crystals keeps her healthy. 

Read the thread. You're peddling snake-oil.


----------



## robnj772

SrobenhorstworksLLC said:


> They are willing to place the unit because of the reduction in price. The amount saved actually pays in most cases more than what it would be to finance it. I had a buddy recently get one installed and 2 months latter he bought 2 additional unit's and swears by them. One 8 unit apartment, one 12 unit complex and a 24 suit office complex in Wisconsin.


And on your very first post you spam an electrical site full of people that know you are full of donkey doo doo?


----------



## Wirenuting

So if I bought one in the late summer or early fall,, I would see a savings within a month or two?

I'll sign up and install one soon as I finish securing my 5ton AC unit.


----------



## Going_Commando

Why won't this topic just die. "A fool and his money are soon parted"


----------



## bkmichael65

These salesmen are like herpes. They just keep coming back


----------



## Magicbox

*Blackhawk*

Go to YouTube and search for "Blackhawk Powerhouse". There is a video posted showing Joe Fort, director of building maintenance for Robertson County TN, talking about how installing the Blackhawk on the Robertson County Municipal Office Building has saved the county 27.2% on their electric bills at that facility. He states that the blackhawk was installed in October of 2010. 

Since the Robertson County Office building is obviously a publicly owned facility, all you have to do is call the electric system in that county and request a copy of the utility bills. Have them email you 2009 till present. They will be in your mailbox in no time and you can see that the bills there have actually gone up since installing Blackhawk. 

A friend of mine almost bought one of these systems for his business until he checked out this easily verifiable claim they were making.


----------



## markore

bkmichael65 said:


> I'm sure the product works just like the manufacturer intended; to separate foolish people from their money


Now that's some quality VALUE engineering!


----------



## markore

Goldagain said:


> And thanks for your contribution Booch, now take your snake oil and get the **** out.






I've got my eye on you!


----------



## JRaef

Magicbox said:


> Go to YouTube and search for "Blackhawk Powerhouse". There is a video posted showing Joe Fort, director of building maintenance for Robertson County TN, talking about how installing the Blackhawk on the Robertson County Municipal Office Building has saved the county 27.2% on their electric bills at that facility. He states that the blackhawk was installed in October of 2010.
> 
> Since the Robertson County Office building is obviously a publicly owned facility, all you have to do is call the electric system in that county and request a copy of the utility bills. Have them email you 2009 till present. They will be in your mailbox in no time and you can see that the bills there have actually gone up since installing Blackhawk.
> 
> A friend of mine almost bought one of these systems for his business until he checked out this easily verifiable claim they were making.


Interesting serendipity that this popped up again. I just finished a conversation with a friend about this very subject yesterday. He apparently read this thread, saw my name on it and got me involved because his company too was about to invest in one of these miracle boxes, and he _knew _it sounded too good to be true. 

The problem with that video, and ALL of the so called "testimonials" given as "proof", is this. People can make _claims _of energy savings, yet offer no _*real *_proof. Your story illustrates that perfectly. In the video, he EXPRESSLY states that their utility bills went from $14K down to $10K just by installing the Black Hawk. But your story, which you say can be backed up by actual written evidence, states exactly the opposite! Is anyone going to call Joe Fort and challenge him? Not likely.

So how can Black Hawk get away with making that claim? The people who are supposed to be protecting us from scams like this, the FTC, are essentially like a toothless dog, all bark and no bite. They have received, for DECADES, numerous criticisms about their allowance of internal expertise, anecdotal evidence and "expert" testimony to be used in marketing claims and then not requiring any _*tangible *_evidence to support any of it, other than the same info. In other words they allow companies to use one form of scam to "prove" claims made in another form of the same scam. The FTCs defense against these claims has, for decades, been essentially that "market forces" will prevent large scale harm. For reputable companies that make equipment and have deep pockets that hungry lawyers are willing to go after, that ends up being relatively true. If GE or Siemens were to sell a piece of crap like the Black Hawk, some hungry shark lawyer would file a class action lawsuit on behalf of the thousands of users, settle for millions of dollars, take their cut of half of those millions, and all the victims would get a check for $2.38. But no lawyer, at least so far, has bothered to chase a relatively small time operation like Black Hawk Energy LLC and/or all the myriad other LLCs set up to sell them across the country. LLCs make the assets of the INDIVIDUALS involved protected from liability for the actions of the LLC, but don't require accountability to stockholders, a Board of Directors or anyone else. It's no coincidence that ALL of the people I could see selling these things are LLCs. It makes them too small and spiny for sharks to be interested in... essentially protection by disinterest. Hey, works for blowfish, right?

My friend sent me another of their testimonials, this one was accompanied by a report from an "energy services" consultant, all official like and professionally done etc. etc. In that report, which claimed 6.2% savings by the way, even though the seller was touting a 15% savings, there was, what I initially thought anyway, a credible engineering approach to the evaluation. It involved factoring in what are called the "cooling days", which ostensibly compares the energy use in a neutralized fashion with regard to any external weather influences. All well and good, until you read the fine print. He based everything on the BILLING, as in the $$, but NOT the actual kWh. He TALKED about kWh savings, but later admits that he did not actually able to READ the kWh because he was just reading the bills. So he was only reading the $$, and EXTRAPOLATING the kWh using the rate. But then he also goes on to admit, IN WRITING to not actually knowing the rate it was based on _either_! He claims that he kept it neutral by using the same rate for both comparisons. OK, but again, fine print, he mentions the rate PLAN they were using, which clearly says "TOU" in the description. Most casual people looking at that would ignore it as superfluous information, but TOU stands for Time Of Use, which means that the RATE plan, the very thing all his "calculations" were based upon, VARIES by time of day, plus as it turned out, 5 other complex conditions that can affect the overall price paid based on comparisons to previous periods, demand days etc. etc.. So using the billed $$ to extrapolate kWh when the rate plan is wildly changing DURING the time being studied, makes any reasonable comparison _*utterly meaningless*_. 

I thought that was extremely odd that a professional "energy consultant" would put together such a sham of a report. So I looked up his company. Legit, one man show, founded by someone who was apparently ousted from his own start-up energy saver company. Hmmm... oddly incestuous I thought. His Linked-in page also showed that his credentials, as an "energy consultant", were based upon his having a bachelor's degree in... _economics_. He is NOT and engineer in other words, he is just passing himself off as one. That of course explained why he thought it valid to extrapolate something like energy based solely on money changing hands...

Scams within scams being used to "prove" scams...


----------



## Porpoise13

*In reply to all the Flat earthers here in regard to the Blackhawk Powerhouse*

Since its been a while from my last post on here...I thought I'd post this reply with regard to all the naysayers who have been Poo-Pooing this device (which I have been marketing successfully) called the Blackhawk Powerhouse. Here is a study that re-affirms what I've been trying to get through the dense heads on here from the Dept of Energy and the benefits of raising ones PF(Power factor) which this device does... Perhaps this topic WONT dies as some suggest it should is because this product does what it says and is Truthful! As they say the truth will always win in the end and set you free...Just need you horse and buggy types to accept it. If you have a problem with this please do not take it up with me...Take it up with the DOE and your Physics teacher...

View attachment reducingpowerfactorcost.pdf




Thomas C. Kirkland
Positive Energy (Blackhawk Powerhouse)
Tampa, FL


----------



## Big John

I don't know why I get the giggles whenever I see this thread has been resurrected again, but I do.

It reminds me of the people who steal manhole covers for scrap: If you guys invested the same amount of energy in an honest endeavor instead spending it trying to convince homeowners and small businesses to buy into this scam, you'd probably be a hell of a lot more successful.


----------



## robnj772

Porpoise13 said:


> Since its been a while from my last post on here...I thought I'd post this reply with regard to all the naysayers who have been Poo-Pooing this device (which I have been marketing successfully) called the Blackhawk Powerhouse. Here is a study that re-affirms what I've been trying to get through the dense heads on here from the Dept of Energy and the benefits of raising ones PF(Power factor) which this device does... Perhaps this topic WONT dies as some suggest it should is because this product does what it says and is Truthful! As they say the truth will always win in the end and set you free...Just need you horse and buggy types to accept it. If you have a problem with this please do not take it up with me...Take it up with the DOE and your Physics teacher... Thomas C. Kirkland Positive Energy (Blackhawk Powerhouse) Tampa, FL


 Go away you clueless snake oil spambot

http://michaelbluejay.com/electricity/powerfactor.html

https://www.facebook.com/PowehouseWorldwideAwareness

http://www.nlcpr.com/Deceptions1.php


----------



## Porpoise13

*Blackhawk Powerhouse*

In reply to Big John...no need to worry...I DON'T spend my time on here trying to convince you or the world on this device... My last post was several months ago...so don't paint me in your blind little world. I prefer to spend my time with those who can see...

Thomas Kirkland (Chris)


----------



## robnj772

Porpoise13 said:


> In reply to Big John...no need to worry...I DON'T spend my time on here trying to convince you or the world on this device... My last post was several months ago...so don't paint me in your blind little world. I prefer to spend my time with those who can see... Thomas Kirkland (Chris)


But yet you came back.


----------



## Hack Work

Big John said:


> I don't know why I get the giggles whenever I see this thread has been resurrected again, but I do.
> 
> It reminds me of the people who steal manhole covers for scrap: If you guys invested the same amount of energy in an honest endeavor instead spending it trying to convince homeowners and small businesses to buy into this scam, you'd probably be a hell of a lot more successful.


I just read 7 studies proving the BlackHouse PowerHawk works.

I believe a preponderance of scientific evidence above a forum full of electrician.


----------



## Bkessler

Blackhawks are a power house because of having two bowman a in the front office. Scottie and Stan. I know this thread is not about hockey. But oh well.


----------



## NacBooster29

It's a fact, this device works! 
The CEO said so.


----------



## Big John

Porpoise13 said:


> ...I prefer to spend my time with those who can see....


 Is that what you call the homeowners and small businesses who you trick into buying this? When their bank account is several thousand dollars emptier for no good reason, I'm sure they _can _see it.


----------



## FrunkSlammer

Hack Work said:


> I just read 7 studies proving the BlackHouse PowerHawk works.
> 
> I believe a preponderance of scientific evidence above a forum full of electrician.


Still waiting on you to tell us about the scientific studies you have been a part of or have seen first hand to be sure the results were not re-written, filtered, skewed, etc...?

:whistling2:

I got me no ejucation in dis but my gut sez snakezoil.


----------



## Hack Work

FrunkSlammer said:


> Still waiting on you to tell us about the scientific studies you have been a part of or have seen first hand to be sure the results were not re-written, filtered, skewed, etc...?


You see how stupid your global warming crap looks now?



You're welcome.


----------



## FrunkSlammer

Power factor correction is real and does save money in industrial situations where they are charged penalties for a poor power factor. 
Even you know that Hax. 

It's marketing it to customers that only pay for watts, regardless of power factor that is the sleazy part.

Figures a denier brings the climate change debate into this and other topics. :laughing:


----------



## Hack Work

I see. So in one situation you tell us that the scientific reports are the only thing we should believe and the people posting on the forum are all wrong.

In the the other situation you say the exact polar opposite. Ignore the reports and listen to the forum posters.

Makes sense... Gotcha.


----------



## Hack Work

Porpoise13, how do I get involved with selling the BlackHawk? I'd also like to help you promote it on internet forums, I have many accounts on all of them.


----------



## robnj772

Porpoise13 said:


> Perhaps you should read the information before you jump to conclusions...But I've come to expect this from the pea brained clueless boneheaded :bangin:individuals such as yourself on here...


First off, stop sending me private messages.

Read what information? Information you posted ? I know that your product is a scam in a residential setting.

I'm an an electrician, are you?

Are you here as a professional in the electrical field? Or are you a sleazy salesman who posted in here thinking you were going to spam us with your bull chit and maybe improve your products SEO.

I vote sleazy salesman


----------



## Hack Work

If it's a scam, how come all these people have saved money?

I think this is real guys.


----------



## sparky402

My dad and everyone at his work bought something similar. I wired it to a breaker like the instruction said. I dont understand how it does anything since it doesnt feed back to anything. I wanted to oped the box but it was riveted and said do not open. I have a feeling there was just a weight in there and the light that says its on.


----------



## Big John

sparky402 said:


> ...But it was riveted and said do not open....


 :laughing: I like that. Don't want people looking behind the curtain to see the wizard. 

Someone posted a picture somewhere on here. It's literally nothing but some capacitors and a couple MOVs. It's a really expensive, half-assed surge protector.


----------



## Hack Work

Big John said:


> :laughing: I like that. Don't want people looking behind the curtain to see the wizard.
> 
> Someone posted a picture somewhere on here. It's literally nothing but some capacitors and a couple MOVs. It's a really expensive, half-assed surge protector.


Surge protection is part of what the Blackhawk Powerhouse offers, an added benefit. As for the capacitors, we all know that they are often used to aid in power factor correction.

The data is there for you to read, plenty of studies proving it.

As for not opening it, many electric/electronic devices have provisions for customers not opening them, such as stickers that bridge the gap or even light sensors that need to be factory reset. Riveting the case in which electricity of dangerous voltages will be exposed makes perfect sense.


----------



## BBQ

Hack Work said:


> Surge protection is part of what the Blackhawk Powerhouse offers, an added benefit. As for the capacitors, we all know that they are often used to aid in power factor correction.
> 
> The data is there for you to read, plenty of studies proving it.
> 
> As for not opening it, many electric/electronic devices have provisions for customers not opening them, such as stickers that bridge the gap or even light sensors that need to be factory reset. Riveting the case in which electricity of dangerous voltages will be exposed makes perfect sense.


Your desperation for something to argue about is kind of sad. :laughing:


----------



## Big John

Hack Work said:


> Surge protection is part of what the Blackhawk Powerhouse offers, an added benefit. As for the capacitors, we all know that they are often used to aid in power factor correction.
> 
> The data is there for you to read, plenty of studies proving it.
> 
> As for not opening it, many electric/electronic devices have provisions for customers not opening them, such as stickers that bridge the gap or even light sensors that need to be factory reset. Riveting the case in which electricity of dangerous voltages will be exposed makes perfect sense.


 Sold! I'm gonna buy a dozen! I can't wait to impress my neighbors with my awesome power factor. They're gonna be so jealous.


----------



## Hack Work

BBQ said:


> Your desperation for something to argue about is kind of sad. :laughing:


So you don't want to save money on your electric bill? Save the Earth, man.


----------



## Hack Work

Big John said:


> Sold! I'm gonna buy a dozen! I can't wait to impress my neighbors with my awesome power factor. They're gonna be so jealous.


You could install it for only $500.

I wish the CEO would come back already, hopefully there is an affiliate program I can get in on.


----------



## Jlarson

Lol.


----------



## FrunkSlammer

Hack Work said:


> So you don't want to save money on your electric bill? Save the Earth, man.


----------



## Rockyd

So we have some trolls trying to sell snake oil? Hey trolls, even the sun shines on a dogs ass some days, today is not your day. If your product was real, Fox News, ABC, CNBC, and a million other talking heads would be beating a trail to your office/having you for interviews on the daily tv shows. I take this forum, over the bs you spew, that your either lying, or just ignorant, either way, it's a falsehood. Let us know when the Blackhawk Powerhouse magically works.... Nevermind, it'll be all over the news - but that will never happen:laughing:...


----------



## Ironside

*It don't work*

I had a salesman fly all the way to Arizona to try and get me to sell these Powerhouse units. They sent me a unit, I installed it and started to monitor. Months go by and there was zero change in KW usage. I opened the cabinet and yes all that was in there were capacitors and MOV's. I was sent all of the graphs and charts. Then there was supposedly some GE testing done! General Electric! But the tests were power factor, reactive, power, etc, but NO KW results. An email from the sales rep contained the name of the man at GE. I looked him up and called him. He actually sent me all of the data including the KW test. The KW actually went UP! I figure that is why the rep failed to send the KW test results. This is definitely a scam.


----------



## Big John

Ironside said:


> ...He actually sent me all of the data including the KW test. The KW actually went UP...!


 I've seen the same thing.


----------



## FrunkSlammer

lol 

Good thing there will always be people like HackWork trying to sell these scam boxes for a quick buck. :thumbsup:


----------



## sbrn33

I may give this thing a shot. My electric bill last month was super high.


----------



## NacBooster29

sbrn33 said:


> I may give this thing a shot. My electric bill last month was super high.


Turn off the lights when you leave the room!


----------



## TPoker

It is amazing how negative many people are and how they give so called expert advice on things they know nothing about.

You can talk about kilowatt hours, true power, power factor, resistive and inductive power all you want and how customer are billed. The bottom line is does a given system significantly lower a customer’s power bill. Some systems do better than others but most if installed correctly have a significant effect in reducing electricity consumption as well as increasing equipment lifespan.


----------



## BlackHowling

TPoker said:


> It is amazing how negative many people are and how they give so called expert advice on things they know nothing about. You can talk about kilowatt hours, true power, power factor, resistive and inductive power all you want and how customer are billed. The bottom line is does a given system significantly lower a customer&#146;s power bill. Some systems do better than others but most if installed correctly have a significant effect in reducing electricity consumption as well as increasing equipment lifespan.


It's amazing how many people make a profile just to comment on this black hole of a thread


----------



## Hack Work

TPoker said:


> It is amazing how negative many people are and how they give so called expert advice on things they know nothing about.
> 
> You can talk about kilowatt hours, true power, power factor, resistive and inductive power all you want and how customer are billed. The bottom line is does a given system significantly lower a customer’s power bill. Some systems do better than others but most if installed correctly have a significant effect in reducing electricity consumption as well as increasing equipment lifespan.


I agree. There are too many people who who know nothing about it, they only believe their pre-conceived assumptions, they don't want to listen to what all the reports and all the scientists say.


----------



## ponyboy

Hack Work said:


> I agree. There are too many people who who know nothing about it, they only believe their pre-conceived assumptions, they don't want to listen to what all the reports and all the scientists say.


You selling these things yet? I bet you could corner the jersey market.


----------



## Hack Work

ponyboy said:


> You selling these things yet? I bet you could corner the jersey market.


I'm trying to get in on it, but every time one of the reps come around, a bunch of people scare them away.


----------



## JRaef

TPoker said:


> It is amazing how negative many people are and how they give so called expert advice on things they know nothing about.
> 
> You can talk about kilowatt hours, true power, power factor, resistive and inductive power all you want and how customer are billed. The bottom line is does a given system significantly lower a customer’s power bill. Some systems do better than others but most if installed correctly have a significant effect in reducing electricity consumption as well as increasing equipment lifespan.


No, sorry, I'll call BS on that. Most people have no clue as to WHY their power bill goes up or down because they have not been paying attention to anything but the size of the bill. But once they spend money on scams like this, they want so much to believe the BS behind the scam pitch that they fail to notice that the REAL reason their bill went down is simply because by spending money on the miracle magical box of crap, they end up paying more attention to how they use and waste power, then unconsciously stop doing the wrong things.


----------



## ponyboy

Hack Work said:


> I'm trying to get in on it, but every time one of the reps come around, a bunch of people scare them away.


Can't keep a good man down


----------



## robnj772

TPoker said:


> It is amazing how negative many people are and how they give so called expert advice on things they know nothing about. You can talk about kilowatt hours, true power, power factor, resistive and inductive power all you want and how customer are billed. The bottom line is does a given system significantly lower a customer&#146;s power bill. Some systems do better than others but most if installed correctly have a significant effect in reducing electricity consumption as well as increasing equipment lifespan.


Oh well enlighten us of wise one, one post that is!


----------



## bkmichael65

There needs to be a do not resuscitate order on this thread


----------



## robnj772

Hack Work said:


> I agree. There are too many people who who know nothing about it, they only believe their pre-conceived assumptions, they don't want to listen to what all the reports and all the scientists say.


This place needs a STFU button!


----------



## HARRY304E

bkmichael65 said:


> There needs to be a do not resuscitate order on this thread



Bump!......:laughing:


----------



## Jnr718

Ok so what I understood before I came across this forum was that on a three phase system that the difference between your unbalanced load goes on your grounded conductor. If this balances out the load between phases. Then where is that unbalanced load going? Wouldn't it be going back into the system to be used? 

Ive had service calls where a chain store is going through lights like crazy, well they had been changing over to LEDs when they were buying new lights (womens clothing store). And they have fairly new LEDs going out and blinking and new track lighting with enclosed electronic ballasts going bad, I checked the load on each phase of their light panel. And loads was something like, if I can remember, 70, 55, 50 ABC. Something like that. Now what I remember in apprentice classes the instructor said that unbalanced loads like that can wreak havoc. I informed the manager to pass it on they'll probably continue to have problems like that. 

Just the other day I replaced a lug on an 800 amp breaker in an rtu. Because it had heated up and caused a lot of damage to the wiring and melted the original lug. After the unit came up and going again out of curiosity I checked amperage across each phase. And there was a huge difference. Now this unit wasnt tooo old but I cant say for sure what caused the original problem either. And its unbalanced from the factory. 

Now for the first problem I could check each circuit and balance the phases by rearranging them in the panel. I see that that would do nothing to the power bill. But in an unbalanced system I thought the unbalanced load goes out on the grounded conductor so if its not wouldn't that be energy your using instead of losing it?

I totally can see this not working for residential. But for commercial and industrial Im not convinced either way. In my head I think it should but I have my doubts. 

I have had to work on energy saver stuff in a grocery store but that one had a bunch of coils and circuit boards in them and theyre like 6' tall. So went it went bad I just bypassed it and said get a new one. They have them for all their lighting panels. I did check amperage across phases on those and they were all exactly the same. So why would this huge grocery chain have these type if these things dont work? These looked a lot different than the black hawk ones. 
But Im assuming does the same thing.

I would love to install one and monitor it for a like 6 months and compare energy usage to the previous years before that time and monitor ballasts and hvac. By the way wouldnt there be substantial long savings for those things?

Nobody here has convinced me either way. I need to talk to people who has these. If black hawk will let me install one for 6 months. Ill either buy it or uninstall it and send it back my expense. If its legit Ill be in.


----------



## BlackHowling

Jnr718 said:


> Ok so what I understood before I came across this forum was that on a three phase system that the difference between your unbalanced load goes on your grounded conductor. If this balances out the load between phases. Then where is that unbalanced load going? Wouldn't it be going back into the system to be used? Ive had service calls where a chain store is going through lights like crazy, well they had been changing over to LEDs when they were buying new lights (womens clothing store). And they have fairly new LEDs going out and blinking and new track lighting with enclosed electronic ballasts going bad, I checked the load on each phase of their light panel. And loads was something like, if I can remember, 70, 55, 50 ABC. Something like that. Now what I remember in apprentice classes the instructor said that unbalanced loads like that can wreak havoc. I informed the manager to pass it on they'll probably continue to have problems like that. Just the other day I replaced a lug on an 800 amp breaker in an rtu. Because it had heated up and caused a lot of damage to the wiring and melted the original lug. After the unit came up and going again out of curiosity I checked amperage across each phase. And there was a huge difference. Now this unit wasnt tooo old but I cant say for sure what caused the original problem either. And its unbalanced from the factory. Now for the first problem I could check each circuit and balance the phases by rearranging them in the panel. I see that that would do nothing to the power bill. But in an unbalanced system I thought the unbalanced load goes out on the grounded conductor so if its not wouldn't that be energy your using instead of losing it? I totally can see this not working for residential. But for commercial and industrial Im not convinced either way. In my head I think it should but I have my doubts. I have had to work on energy saver stuff in a grocery store but that one had a bunch of coils and circuit boards in them and theyre like 6' tall. So went it went bad I just bypassed it and said get a new one. They have them for all their lighting panels. I did check amperage across phases on those and they were all exactly the same. So why would this huge grocery chain have these type if these things dont work? These looked a lot different than the black hawk ones. But Im assuming does the same thing. I would love to install one and monitor it for a like 6 months and compare energy usage to the previous years before that time and monitor ballasts and hvac. By the way wouldnt there be substantial long savings for those things? Nobody here has convinced me either way. I need to talk to people who has these. If black hawk will let me install one for 6 months. Ill either buy it or uninstall it and send it back my expense. If its legit Ill be in.


 What happens if I use a 3 wire wye? Where would the magical "unbalance" go? And don't say it will travel through the ground back to the source


----------



## don_resqcapt19

Jnr718 said:


> ... And loads was something like, if I can remember, 70, 55, 50 ABC. Something like that. Now what I remember in apprentice classes the instructor said that unbalanced loads like that can wreak havoc. I informed the manager to pass it on they'll probably continue to have problems like that. ...


Those currents will never be the cause of any problems, unless they are on a 50 amp service.


----------



## Bo Hussung

jrannis said:


> If they install it for free and want to take half, you might think of paying for half and getting them out of there.
> This is what they want. 5k for something worth about $30.
> 
> It is a total scam. We all know better, just sayin:whistling2:


So, 18 MOV's (with a diode and resistor in each), a conditioning capacitor bank, about $50 worth of wire and a 50k watt surge protector are worth $30? Sounds like you truly do not know much about the product? These items have been around for years and have been used in varoius electrical applications. The inventor simply came up with a unique way to integrate them together. United Laboratory (UL) have tested the components, the wiring configuration and the effectiveness of the entire box and have not only approved it, but listed it, as well. Additionally 3 separate independent studies have varified it's effectivenes and cost saving benefits. So how is that a scam? Seriously, I want to know how and what information you are using to verify this?


----------



## Jlarson

Lol, it's back from the dead again.


----------



## FrunkSlammer

Bo Hussung said:


> The inventor simply came up with a unique way to integrate them together. United Laboratory (UL) have tested the components, the wiring configuration and the effectiveness of the entire box and have not only approved it, but listed it, as well.


I came up with a unique way to integrate brain cells together to distinguish between bullsh1t and non-bullsh1t.

_The bullsh1t is strong with this one._

UL is not United Laboratory. And UL (Underwriters Laboratories) do not test effectiveness of devices, they test for *safety*. If it won't hurt people, won't shock people, won't burn people, won't save power and won't do anything to people but take money out of their pockets.. They'll put their sticker on it!


----------



## Bo Hussung

Jlarson said:


> Lol, it's back from the dead again.


That is not an answer to my question? These boards are complete watse of time if all that is being offered is opinion with no verification. So please explain how you know about the product. More importantly how you know it does not work

I gave you lots of data, now it is your turn.

As you state, "the best never stop learning"


----------



## NacBooster29

I didn't see any data.. Bo just a bunch of Bs..
Bo don't know


----------



## Jlarson

All the scam box salespeople seem so angry. :laughing:


----------



## Bo Hussung

NacBooster29 said:


> I didn't see any data.. Bo just a bunch of Bs..
> Bo don't know


Good data points, I appreciate your extremely limited input, but vast knowledge of the subject


So, MOVs are BS
and capacitors are BS
and of course proper wiring is BS
and finally, lightning arrestors are BS

hmmm, interesting!
Thanks


----------



## bkmichael65

Bo Hussung said:


> So, 18 MOV's (with a diode and resistor in each), a conditioning capacitor bank, about $50 worth of wire and a 50k watt surge protector are worth $30? Sounds like you truly do not know much about the product? These items have been around for years and have been used in varoius electrical applications. The inventor simply came up with a unique way to integrate them together. United Laboratory (UL) have tested the components, the wiring configuration and the effectiveness of the entire box and have not only approved it, but listed it, as well. Additionally 3 separate independent studies have varified it's effectivenes and cost saving benefits. So how is that a scam? Seriously, I want to know how and what information you are using to verify this?


United Laboratory? If you mean underwriter's laboratory, their listing has nothing to do with the effectiveness of a product or even if it does anything other than look pretty, only whether or not it may pose a hazard to people or property.


----------



## Bo Hussung

bkmichael65 said:


> United Laboratory? If you mean underwriter's laboratory, their listing has nothing to do with the effectiveness of a product or even if it does anything other than look pretty, only whether or not it may pose a hazard to people or property.


Thanks for the correction, bkmichael65. That was a typo error on my part. I only put that on there because in order to get the listing certification from UL, it actually has to work. If you have ever read one of their reports, it is a little more than aesthetics.


----------



## bkmichael65

Bo Hussung said:


> Thanks for the correction, bkmichael65. That was a typo error on my part. I only put that on there because in order to get the listing certification from UL, it actually has to work. If you have ever read one of their reports, it is a little more than aesthetics.


That doesn't mean that it does what is promised. It's probably a pretty decent, although expensive, surge arrestor


----------



## Bo Hussung

bkmichael65 said:


> That doesn't mean that it does what is promised. It's probably a pretty decent, although expensive, surge arrestor


I don't disagree, but "facts are our friends" and the data compiled from over 700 satisfied customers clearly shows continued monthly usage savings and lower power bills with a much higher power factor after the unit is installed. I don't think that is coincidence.


----------



## Big John

I recently saw some of these things installed in a bar with a 1Ø service. I thought of this thread and laughed.


Bo Hussung said:


> ...So, MOVs are BS
> and capacitors are BS
> and of course proper wiring is BS
> and finally, lightning arrestors are BS...


 Claiming that those four components have anything to do with "saving power" or "saving the customer money" is almost definitely BS.


----------



## NacBooster29

I appreciate your ability to provide any facts. All your providing is your opinion. If all these satisfied customers existed, wouldn't they be the best sales tool for this equipment? Not heresy from the internet? 
The parts you list no matter how you arrange them in a box do not save any power. They may intact provide excellent surge protection, even a consistent voltage. 
Ultimately machines down the line use the power. The use of power is measured is watts or kilo watts. 
In simple English its physically an impossibility for your gadget to affect the amount of power a machine will consume. 
No matter how you spin it. Sorry


----------



## Bo Hussung

I am not an electrical engineer and I know many have tried to discredit the device, but I have seen the electric bills before and after and for whatever reason, they are smaller. To be honest, I don't why, don't even really care, but there it is right in front of my eyes - smaller electric bills. So I can scratch my head all day long, but in the end, it works and the proof is in the electric bills and customers are saving money and in many cases a whole lot of money.


----------



## Zog

Bo Hussung said:


> I am not an electrical engineer and I know many have tried to discredit the device, but I have seen the electric bills before and after and for whatever reason, they are smaller. To be honest, I don't why, don't even really care, but there it is right in front of my eyes - smaller electric bills. So I can scratch my head all day long, but in the end, it works and the proof is in the electric bills and customers are saving money and in many cases a whole lot of money.


You obviously have not read the thread where I (And others) have posted the theory (And proof per NISt and other engineering studies) that these are scams for residential and commercial customers that are metered and billed for kWH. 

The whole point you are missing is not the lack of effectiveness of these devices to improve PF and reduce the reactive load compoenent of the current the "demos" show but the way those customers are metered and billed for usage. Do a little homework how a kWH meter works and you will see why these will not reduce electric bills.


----------



## Big John

Bo Hussung said:


> I am not an electrical engineer and I know many have tried to discredit the device, but I have seen the electric bills before and after and for whatever reason, they are smaller. To be honest, I don't why, don't even really care, but there it is right in front of my eyes - smaller electric bills. So I can scratch my head all day long, but in the end, it works and the proof is in the electric bills and customers are saving money and in many cases a whole lot of money.


Scenario #1) If your customers are billed on kWh, their usage will increase and their bills will increase in addition to wasting money on the installation.

Scenario #2) If your customers are billed on kVA _and _are getting a PF penalty, their usage will increase, but if these are sized and installed correctly they will remove that penalty and the customer will save money.

99% of the devices being discussed in this thread are Scenario #1 devices. Because people who sell #2 understand the systems and science well enough to be able to explain the reality honestly instead of just making sweeping baseless claims that they will save money.


----------



## Bo Hussung

Big John said:


> Scenario #1) If your customers are billed on kWh, their usage will increase and their bills will increase in addition to wasting money on the installation.
> 
> Scenario #2) If your customers are billed on kVA _and _are getting a PF penalty, their usage will increase, but if these are sized and installed correctly they will remove that penalty and the customer will save money.
> 
> 99% of the devices being discussed in this thread are Scenario #1 devices. Because people who sell #2 understand the systems and science well enough to be able to explain the reality honestly instead of just making sweeping baseless claims that they will save money.


Then I will count myself in the 1%...scamming people is not part of my character. "Treat others as you would want to be treated" Pretty simple, if you ask me


----------



## EBFD6

Zog said:


> You obviously have not read the thread where I (And others) have posted the theory (And proof per NISt and other engineering studies) that these are scams for residential and commercial customers that are metered and billed for kWH.
> 
> The whole point you are missing is not the lack of effectiveness of these devices to improve PF and reduce the reactive load compoenent of the current the "demos" show but the way those customers are metered and billed for usage. Do a little homework how a kWH meter works and you will see why these will not reduce electric bills.


Bingo! 

No one here has said that these devices don't work at all. They most likely do work to improve power factor. 

The problem comes in with the claim that they reduce your electric bill. They don't. As has already been stated numerous times in these threads, residential customers are billed for Kwh, not Kvar. They are not punished for poor power factor and will see no benefit from a very expensive power factor correction device that they don't need. These companies are selling a product that is useless to the people they are targeting. 

I will also agree with the statement made about "lower electric bills" being a coincidental result of someone purchasing this device and inadvertently being more conscous of their power usage, therefore using less Kwh and reducing their electric bill. This is purely coincidental and not at all related to the "power saver" scam device.


----------



## Bo Hussung

EBFD6 said:


> Bingo!
> 
> No one here has said that these devices don't work at all. They most likely do work to improve power factor.
> 
> The problem comes in with the claim that they reduce your electric bill. They don't. As has already been stated numerous times in these threads, residential customers are billed for Kwh, not Kvar. They are not punished for poor power factor and will see no benefit from a very expensive power factor correction device that they don't need. These companies are selling a product that is useless to the people they are targeting.
> 
> I will also agree with the statement made about "lower electric bills" being a coincidental result of someone purchasing this device and inadvertently being more conscous of their power usage, therefore using less Kwh and reducing their electric bill. This is purely coincidental and not at all related to the "power saver" scam device.


So why are the bills consistently lower, then? Particularly when they don't change usage. BTW, I am referring to 480 and 208 service, not single phase.


----------



## Big John

Bo Hussung said:


> Then I will count myself in the 1%...scamming people is not part of my character. "Treat others as you would want to be treated" Pretty simple, if you ask me


 But if you're not selling Scenario #2, then you're scamming people whether you intend to or not.

And based on the fact that you can't describe anything about how it works, you're most likely selling things to people that they don't need and can't use.


----------



## EBFD6

Bo Hussung said:


> So why are the bills consistently lower, then? Particularly when they don't change usage. BTW, I am referring to 480 and 208 service, not single phase.


The voltage of the service and whether it's single phase or three phase has nothing to do with this discussion. The only thing that matters is how the customer is billed. If they are billed for Kwh, these devices are useless. 

As far as why the electric bills are lower, I think JRaef explained it pretty well here:



JRaef said:


> No, sorry, I'll call BS on that. Most people have no clue as to WHY their power bill goes up or down because they have not been paying attention to anything but the size of the bill. But once they spend money on scams like this, they want so much to believe the BS behind the scam pitch that they fail to notice that the REAL reason their bill went down is simply because by spending money on the miracle magical box of crap, they end up paying more attention to how they use and waste power, then unconsciously stop doing the wrong things.


----------



## don_resqcapt19

Bo Hussung said:


> Thanks for the correction, bkmichael65. That was a typo error on my part. I only put that on there because in order to get the listing certification from UL, it actually has to work. If you have ever read one of their reports, it is a little more than aesthetics.


There is nothing in an UL listing test that has anything to do with the functionality of the device...as long as the device is not a hazard, they are happy with it and it will get its listing...they don't care what it does and they do not test to see if it does what the manufacture says it does.


----------



## Jlarson

Remeber the more MOV's your scam box has the better it is. It's all about the MOV's, it used to be all about the ball bearings but now it's MOV's. 

:lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## ponyboy

Jlarson said:


> Remeber the more MOV's your scam box has the better it is. It's all about the MOV's, it used to be all about the ball barings but now it's MOV's. :lol: :lol: :lol:


It's almost all ball bearings nowadays


----------



## Big John

ponyboy said:


> It's almost all ball bearings nowadays


 Get with the times: It was ball bearings. Now it's MOVs.


----------



## JRaef

Bo Hussung said:


> So, 18 MOV's (with a diode and resistor in each), a conditioning capacitor bank, about $50 worth of wire and a 50k watt surge protector are worth $30? Sounds like you truly do not know much about the product? These items have been around for years and have been used in varoius electrical applications. The inventor simply came up with a unique way to integrate them together. United Laboratory (UL) have tested the components, the wiring configuration and the effectiveness of the entire box and have not only approved it, but listed it, as well. Additionally 3 separate independent studies have varified it's effectivenes and cost saving benefits. So how is that a scam? Seriously, I want to know how and what information you are using to verify this?


In the looooooong history of this necrothread, there have been many many excellent posts on just exactly WHY the claims on this are false, from an ENGINEERING AND LAWS OF PHYSICS standpoint. You are refuting these long established and proven concepts with unsubstantiated anecdotes and emotional responses, then decrying the professional opinions of qualified people, yet readily admitting you are NOT qualified to offer an educated opinion.

Sounds like religion to me. So I supposed you believe that the sun revolves around the earth, which is by the way flat, and that unmarried women who have sex should be stoned to death, etc. etc. etc.

By the way, EVERY (save one) one of the "independent studies" I have seen referenced in these scam ads falls into one of three categories: the "independent" study was done by a non-existent organization; one who does "engineering" studies for hire with outcomes tailored to the highest bidder; or college papers which turn out to have been published, then thoroughly discredited by the very same colleges afterward (in other words, the students got an "F"). The only one that I read that was from a legitimate engineering resource actually showed, IN THEIR PAPER PUBLISHED BY THE SCAMMER, that in fact the device not only FAILED to save energy as purported, but actually WASTED energy. Yet the scammer, who obvious could NOT understand (or didn't care) what the report was saying, put it on their website as "independent proof". At best, this shows their stupidity, at worst, it indicates the hubris of the scam artists, knowing that 99% of those who would think of buying the scam box will not be able to understand the study results either.


----------



## JRaef

Wait, new category for "independent studies., based on one posted by Blackhawk.

Studies that say energy was saved, but never discuss how! They listed one of the studies as coming from Applied Research Labs, a legitimate NRTL. But if you read the study, all it says is that the medical center used less energy over the time period described. It NEVER mentions the Blackhawk Powerhouse, it NEVER implies any issues as to how or why the facility used less energy. All it does is say that less energy was used. That is a completely useless "independent study" as published, and the way it is used is, quite frankly, EXACTLY how a scam artist would use it!

And yes, I know I just killed two more kittens, but it was worth it...


----------



## FrunkSlammer

aaaahhhh duhhhhh

It's obviously ground plugger so that all the electricity that used to be wasted flowing to ground is saved up, thus since electricity costs money, it saves money!

DONE.

I just scientifically proved it.


----------



## triden

This should be in the new Controversial Talk forum


----------



## FrunkSlammer

It takes 250 posts in a thread to make it controversial.

We're almost there!


----------



## 50shadesofgreen

I find it interesting that people only on this page say the Black Hawk Powerhouse is a scam. How would they know? Are they actual customers? If so, why not report them to the BBB? There are several hundred in service now in facilities such as Flying J truck stops, KFC, McDonalds, Sonic, Taco Bell, Government facilities, and too many churches to mention. It also seems interesting that if only one of these people were scammed there would be negative comments all over the web, but the only ones that I can find are the opinions of some on this site.


----------



## Bad Electrician

50shadesofgreen said:


> I find it interesting that people only on this page say the Black Hawk Powerhouse is a scam. How would they know? Are they actual customers? If so, why not report them to the BBB? There are several hundred in service now in facilities such as Flying J truck stops, KFC, McDonalds, Sonic, Taco Bell, Government facilities, and too many churches to mention. It also seems interesting that if only one of these people were scammed there would be negative comments all over the web, but the only ones that I can find are the opinions of some on this site.


Please tell me you are NOT THAT STUPID.

Wait now I get it you have been selling these scams in a box


----------



## bkmichael65

50shadesofgreen said:


> I find it interesting that people only on this page say the Black Hawk Powerhouse is a scam. How would they know? Are they actual customers? If so, why not report them to the BBB? There are several hundred in service now in facilities such as Flying J truck stops, KFC, McDonalds, Sonic, Taco Bell, Government facilities, and too many churches to mention. It also seems interesting that if only one of these people were scammed there would be negative comments all over the web, but the only ones that I can find are the opinions of some on this site.


I find it interesting that the only people on this page saying it isn't a scam are the ones that are selling them


----------



## 50shadesofgreen

Ah, here we go, the first unhappy customer. Sorry you were scammed. I cant help that you are a BAD ELECTRICIAN!


----------



## Bad Electrician

bkmichael65 said:


> I find it interesting that the only people on this page saying it isn't a scam are the ones that are selling them


Hacks or crooks, UNLESS, the customer bought one and asked their electrician to install it.

Myself even then I would not install it.

For the dolt's that believes, please read and learn the error of your ways.

http://www.nist.gov/pml/div684/power_121509.cfm


----------



## Bad Electrician

50shadesofgreen said:


> Ah, here we go, the first unhappy customer. Sorry you were scammed. I cant help that you are a BAD ELECTRICIAN!


Have you researched this product?

I am not going to get into a back and forth with someone that believes in Black Magic,

Read learn and see the error of your ways and then if you installed any magic boxes you should reimburse the customers you ripped off.

An easier question is do you understand WHY they do not work.

The utility bills in kw, NOT KVA, not in amperage

There is no penalty for low pf in the residential and small commercial market, 

Even if there was a pf penalty a one cap box fits all would not be the answer.


----------



## Jlarson

The scam box thread lives!!! :lol:


----------



## 50shadesofgreen

Of course they charge by kWh. But you will use more true power when apparent power is present. The more kVA the more kWh will be billed. Next you will be claiming that apparent power does not not exist or better yet that it is free. You pay for it one way or another! You must work for your local electric co-op. Who is scamming who?


----------



## Bad Electrician

There is always a new scam, but this one is old and IF this magic box you believe in was so wonderful, why doesn't Square D or other reputable manufactures make one.

And did you bother reading what I posted.


----------



## 50shadesofgreen

I guess *Eaton* is in the scamming business too! I am anxious to hear what you have to say about this.





https://www.eaton.com/Eaton/Product...andMonitoring/PowerFactorCorrection/index.htm


----------



## 50shadesofgreen

Did you bother reading mine?


----------



## Bad Electrician

50shadesofgreen said:


> Did you bother reading mine?


I did and for commercial applications where power factor penalties are imposed.

Look even if there was a PF penalty for light commercial and residential application a one box fits all WOULD NOT WORK, the caps are sized for the load not sold out of the back of a the trunk of a 1986 Nissan. I have installed Caps for PF correction at point of use and of course it works and of course there is a savings and the system is designed and engineered for the specific loads.

Tell me how there is a savings if the KW remains the same


----------



## Bad Electrician

Black Hawk on the web site admit that their device reduces apparent power which means nothing to a residential customer as the utility bills for real power.

The one statement that may be true is the device may reduce transients.


----------



## 50shadesofgreen

Who said that a Black Hawk is one size? They are built according to total breaker amps and specifically for said service. There has to be a significant amount of kVAr before its use would be warranted. Who is selling them out of a 86 Nissan? You talk a lot but you don't say much.

If you believe that you are not charged for apparent power in one form or another then I have to say- Please tell me that you are NOT THAT STUPID!


----------



## Bad Electrician

50shadesofgreen said:


> Who said that a Black Hawk is one size? They are built according to total breaker amps and specifically for said service. There has to be a significant amount of kVAr or low PF before its use would be warranted. Who is selling them out of a 86 Nissan? You talk a lot but you don't say much.
> 
> If you believe that you are not charged for apparent power in one form or another then I have to say- Please tell me that you are NOT THAT STUPID!


PF correction is not sized per CB size, it is designed based on size and type of loads.

Explain how there are savings?

Explain how the utility is billing for apparent power in their KWHR meters.


----------



## Bad Electrician

Read this please



JRaef said:


> In the looooooong history of this necrothread, there have been many many excellent posts on just exactly WHY the claims on this are false, from an ENGINEERING AND LAWS OF PHYSICS standpoint. You are refuting these long established and proven concepts with unsubstantiated anecdotes and emotional responses, then decrying the professional opinions of qualified people, yet readily admitting you are NOT qualified to offer an educated opinion.
> 
> Sounds like religion to me. So I supposed you believe that the sun revolves around the earth, which is by the way flat, and that unmarried women who have sex should be stoned to death, etc. etc. etc.
> 
> By the way, EVERY (save one) one of the "independent studies" I have seen referenced in these scam ads falls into one of three categories: the "independent" study was done by a non-existent organization; one who does "engineering" studies for hire with outcomes tailored to the highest bidder; or college papers which turn out to have been published, then thoroughly discredited by the very same colleges afterward (in other words, the students got an "F"). The only one that I read that was from a legitimate engineering resource actually showed, IN THEIR PAPER PUBLISHED BY THE SCAMMER, that in fact the device not only FAILED to save energy as purported, but actually WASTED energy. Yet the scammer, who obvious could NOT understand (or didn't care) what the report was saying, put it on their website as "independent proof". At best, this shows their stupidity, at worst, it indicates the hubris of the scam artists, knowing that 99% of those who would think of buying the scam box will not be able to understand the study results either.


----------



## Bad Electrician

Then answer my questions.

Do you sell these boxes?

Do you install these boxes?

What do you tell your customers about the magic qualities of these boxes?


----------



## Going_Commando

50shadesofgreen said:


> Did you bother reading mine?


Did you bother reading this thread filled with scientific explanations of how snake oil magic boxes don't help customers billed by the kW hr? Or how about the snake oil box magic box being in a one size fits all approach to an actual problem that should be addressed by real electricians using math? If you actually are selling snake oil magic boxes to churches than I hope you aren't a religious man, because scamming god is bad, mmkay. 

I know math and science are tough to understand, and that not everyone is going to be an astronaut, but get real fella. You can't BS a bullsh!ter a d you can't successfully argue something that you know nothing about with people who do. You aren't dealing with a bunch of flustered church elders, gullible businesspeople or ignorant home owners. The product you push isn't any less of a scam for your targetted market than deer whistles for cars that are just an LED in a little plastic box or Edenpure electric heaters. 

I shouldn't have wasted the time typing this out on my phone since you are probably just another forum troller anyway.


----------



## 50shadesofgreen

This has been fun BAD ELECTRICIAN. Thanks for the debate, I have to get up early, I am hunting kVAr in the morning. Have a good evening.


----------



## 50shadesofgreen

Going_Commando said:


> Did you bother reading this thread filled with scientific explanations of how snake oil magic boxes don't help customers billed by the kW hr? Or how about the snake oil box magic box being in a one size fits all approach to an actual problem that should be addressed by real electricians using math? If you actually are selling snake oil magic boxes to churches than I hope you aren't a religious man, because scamming god is bad, mmkay.
> 
> I know math and science are tough to understand, and that not everyone is going to be an astronaut, but get real fella. You can't BS a bullsh!ter a d you can't successfully argue something that you know nothing about with people who do. You aren't dealing with a bunch of flustered church elders, gullible businesspeople or ignorant home owners. The product you push isn't any less of a scam for your targetted market than deer whistles for cars that are just an LED in a little plastic box or Edenpure electric heaters.
> 
> I shouldn't have wasted the time typing this out on my phone since you are probably just another forum troller anyway.




I guess Eaton B.S.'s people as well
https://www.eaton.com/Eaton/Product...andMonitoring/PowerFactorCorrection/index.htm


----------



## FrunkSlammer

oh muh gawd, it's like deja vu all over again!

Yes, power factor correction is a real thing. No, most consumers don't pay for bad power factors. They pay for kWh.. fixing a bad power factor will have negligible effects on the kWh.


----------



## Bad Electrician

FrunkSlammer said:


> oh muh gawd, it's like deja vu all over again!
> 
> Yes, power factor correction is a real thing. No, most consumers don't pay for bad power factors. They pay for kWh.. fixing a bad power factor will have negligible effects on the kWh.


Several points 

1. This poster most likely is a troll and was just trying to jerk chains
2. Believers in voodoo black boxes are like conspiracy followers no amount of logic , scientific evidence and real world facts will change their mind.
3. Arguing with them is a waste of time but fun.

What I let bother me is those that sell this crap and think they are helping the customer even after that have been shown it is junk. It just gives the public more reasons to think we are all rip off hacks.


----------



## wildleg

uconduit said:


> I clicked this post expecting to see some sort of 500mw+ coal or natural gas plant


I thought it was gonna be about electrical equipment in a certain helicopter


----------



## Zog

50shadesofgreen said:


> Of course they charge by kWh. But you will use more true power when apparent power is present. The more kVA the more kWh will be billed.


100% false statement, you obviously don't understand power systems but I hope at least you paid attention in HS math class. 

(A^2)+(B^2)=(C^2)

A=VARs
B=Watts
C=VA

You can increase A which will increase C and not have any effect on B, which is what you are billed for.


----------



## don_resqcapt19

50shadesofgreen said:


> I guess Eaton B.S.'s people as well
> https://www.eaton.com/Eaton/Product...andMonitoring/PowerFactorCorrection/index.htm


From that site:


> Capacitor and electronic means of Power Factor Correction provide well-known benefits to electric power systems. These benefits include power factor correction, *poor power factor penalty utility bill reductions*, voltage support, release of system capacity, and _reduced system losses_.


By far the main savings is what I highlighted in bold. Those savings do not apply to residential and small commercial customers as they do not have "poor power factor penalty" billing. 
The only possible savings to those customers would be the very small reduction in kW because of the reduced system losses. Also when the power factor correction is over sized for the kVARs required, it will actually increase the system losses. 

So Eaton is not part of this scam...they are selling a device for use where there are "poor power factor penalties" on the power bill.


----------



## FrunkSlammer

50shadesofgreen said:


> Thanks for the debate, I have to get up early, I am hunting kVAr in the morning. Have a good evening.


Hunting kVar's? 

Look for a Blackhawk Powerhouse delivery truck and start shooting.. you'll get all the kVars you could possibly need.


----------



## Big John

50shadesofgreen said:


> Ah, here we go, the first unhappy customer. Sorry you were scammed. I cant help that you are a BAD ELECTRICIAN!


 :lol: The guy you're trying to insult has forgotten more about electrical work than you've ever learned.

All the points you've raised have already been raised by others just like you, and each one has been thoroughly debunked multiple times in this thread.

And every single time those other people have also gotten as indignant as you have, and despite all evidence to the contrary, they've all claimed that it works and all these people whose job it is to understand electricity are just ignorant to the truth. 

But surely _this time, _it's everyone else who's wrong, not you.


----------



## FrunkSlammer




----------



## Power Junkie

bkmichael65 said:


> This is just a scam. You're charged for Kilowatt hours or true power used and this will not change the amount of power you actually consume. If something sounds too good to be true, then it probably is


My understanding is that it balances the power by use of capacitors and shunts and thru a neutral kicks back power when a demand load is detected out of the capacitors that has already been paid for reducing demand for additional power off the grid. This reduces your spikes and the way the power company sets your rate. I also understand that it increases your power factor if it is low to closer to a .95 and that also reduces rates in areas where electrical companies charge a power factor rate... They have a pretty expanded customer rate including Embassy suites Hotels the Hilton Hotel and some municipalities have installed it with effective results. Where is the scam you refer too?


----------



## JRaef

Power Junkie said:


> My understanding is that it balances the power by use of capacitors and shunts and thru a neutral kicks back power when a demand load is detected out of the capacitors that has already been paid for reducing demand for additional power off the grid. This reduces your spikes and the way the power company sets your rate. I also understand that it increases your power factor if it is low to closer to a .95 and that also reduces rates in areas where electrical companies charge a power factor rate... They have a pretty expanded customer rate including Embassy suites Hotels the Hilton Hotel and some municipalities have installed it with effective results. Where is the scam you refer too?


Did that KoolAid taste good when you drank it?

And yet another kitten dies... :icon_cry:


----------



## Going_Commando

It lives! It lives!


----------



## Power Junkie

Wow I didnt expect that brilliant response JRelf... well yeah I kinda did... you are excused... 

I am hearing that units have been running on corporate sites in some astute corporations and that after long test running the units they are starting to roll out in multiple locations across the franchise's locations. I wonder if all these people are as smart as all you smart asses are.

Professionals my ass. this forum is not professional, you all are a big joke as far as i can tell, professionals do not act like any of you.


----------



## Power Junkie

50shadesofgreen said:


> I find it interesting that people only on this page say the Black Hawk Powerhouse is a scam. How would they know? Are they actual customers? If so, why not report them to the BBB? There are several hundred in service now in facilities such as Flying J truck stops, KFC, McDonalds, Sonic, Taco Bell, Government facilities, and too many churches to mention. It also seems interesting that if only one of these people were scammed there would be negative comments all over the web, but the only ones that I can find are the opinions of some on this site.


This is what I have researched as well... Many businesses and industry that installed it a year to 18 months ago are now rolling it out across their stores after they have results of their own to draw from and make that decision. If these snake oil salesmen are really that good, I want to hire them all... Or just maybe its something else all together.


----------



## bkmichael65

The hills are alive with the sounds of salesmen and their anecdotal evidence


----------



## don_resqcapt19

Power Junkie said:


> This is what I have researched as well... Many businesses and industry that installed it a year to 18 months ago are now rolling it out across their stores after they have results of their own to draw from and make that decision. If these snake oil salesmen are really that good, I want to hire them all... Or just maybe its something else all together.


If, and only if, the customers have a power factor penalty in their billing, the power factor correction devices can save the customer money.


----------



## BlackHowling

don_resqcapt19 said:


> If, and only if, the customers have a power factor penalty in their billing, the power factor correction devices can save the customer money.



Which no residential customer is ever billed for. I don't know how this thread keeps resurrecting.


----------



## JRaef

Power Junkie said:


> This is what I have researched as well... Many businesses and industry that installed it a year to 18 months ago are now rolling it out across their stores after they have results of their own to draw from and make that decision. If these snake oil salesmen are really that good, I want to hire them all... Or just maybe its something else all together.


To quote myself from earlier in this thread...


> ... in my experience with things like this, people who have been scammed HATE to reveal that they know it was a scam once the evidence doesn't support it, so they will provide glowing testimonials supporting their own decision. It's human nature to not want to admit we were duped and be embarrassed.


I once worked for a company that made an "energy saver" device, in fact one of the first ever sold in the US in the late 1970s (I worked for them much later). Despite my knowing that the device was worthless and my refusal to support it or work on it, they kept selling them. The founder of the company was a marketing guy, not an Engineer. His SON became an EE and and ME, even got Master's Degrees in both. HE KNEW it was worthless, yet he did nothing to stop his father from perpetuating it because they made money on it, the money he used for 20 years of college to get all of his degrees.

At one point when I protested too loudly, the father had me talk to a retired Maintenance Mgr. at the General Motors Fairfax Assembly plant in Kansas City, who had installed our devices on every motor over 25HP in the plant. He had supposedly saved so much money for GM, that they awarded him a percentage of the annual savings, $400,000, right before he retired. I talked to the guy, he KNEW it didn't work right after he installed them on the first pilot section of the plant, but he WANTED to be the hero, so he made other procedural changes that ended up saving them energy. Then when he proved that energy was saved in that pilot section, he implemented installing the worthless devices throughout the plant, extrapolated the savings dollars, took the check, and retired. But when I then spoke with the guy that replaced him, he didn't see any real energy savings, he thought it was all BS. Yet despite that, HE recommended it to another GM plant, because HE did not want to look bad since he had worked for the other guy when the scam took place!

We used that fantastic "testimonial" in all of our marketing literature. The effect was that other people who bought them fell into the SAME trap, not wanting to expose that they were duped, so they too reported glowing "testimonials", and the scam continued.

It wasn't until the father died and the son took over that I and other REAL engineers convinced him that it was immoral to keep this up, and we dropped the product line in favor of other REAL products that we made by then.

So whenever I see scammers using testimonials from big companies, I remember that those testimonials are usually the result of some victim who does not want to look like a victim, and the bigger the company, the moe likely that is going to be the case.


----------



## Power Junkie

Fair enough... I don't know why but it seems to me that there are other up charges for industry and manufacturing related to peak demand charges which balancing the power through capacitance helps relieve.... Again this is my understanding from the billing side which if we do this will be our approach... I also have some information from users that they are experiencing less maintenance from light ballast changes in office buildings...


----------



## JRaef

The BHPH unit has MOVs inside. They CLAIM that these do some sort of magical voodoo thing, which is pure unadulterated BS. But nonetheless, they ARE acting as surge suppressors. So adding surge suppressors to a system that sees a lot of surges, i.e. from utility side grid switching transients, will have the effect of reducing component failures. MOVs, as used in this device, are not the best form of accomplishing this only because with no monitoring circuit, you have no idea when they have done their job, but sacrificed themselves in doing it and are no longer there. If you want surge suppression, go buy a good surge suppressor with indicator lights and a surge counter so that you can do predictive maintenance, and one that is DESIGNED for the service size you have and the type of likely surges you can expect. But the BHPH is a very expensive, yet functionally inferior, surge suppressor.

If you are paying a PF penalty, use PFC capacitors DESIGNED to correct the PF at the offending loads, i.e. induction motors, not a one-size-fits-all "bulk" capacitor that is on all the time like the BHPH unit. When the caps are connected all the time, and the inductive motor load that was pulling down the PF turns off, the caps are still there and can give you a LEADING power factor, which is just as bad as a LAGGING power factor, if not worse, because it can make surges even higher (hence their MOVs by the way).

And if you are NOT being penalized for poor PF, as is the case with most single phase service customers, then doing this has such a negligible effect on energy consumption that it is not worth investing in, and in some cases has been shown to actually WASTE more energy.


----------



## don_resqcapt19

Power Junkie said:


> Fair enough... I don't know why but it seems to me that there are other up charges for industry and manufacturing related to peak demand charges which balancing the power through capacitance helps relieve.... Again this is my understanding from the billing side which if we do this will be our approach... I also have some information from users that they are experiencing less maintenance from light ballast changes in office buildings...


Demand billing is based on a 15 minute time...can't see capacitors making any difference there.


----------



## mitch65

A guy that owns one of the grocery stores here put one in, with the refrigeration compressors and HVAC systems his motor load is not insignificant(which is the only thing I think one of these might help out a bit correcting power factor). After a year and a half he has realized no noticeable savings at all.


----------



## cuba_pete

*Kvar*



mitch65 said:


> A guy that owns one of the grocery stores here put one in, with the refrigeration compressors and HVAC systems his motor load is not insignificant(which is the only thing I think one of these might help out a bit correcting power factor). After a year and a half he has realized no noticeable savings at all.


Which is no small wonder if he isn't billed by KVAR, e.g., ConEd


----------



## Bad Electrician

cuba_pete said:


> Which is no small wonder if he isn't billed by KVAR, e.g., ConEd


And even if he was the Caps need to be sized for the loads on line at a particular tie or sized for individual motors.


----------



## Power Junkie

JRaef said:


> The BHPH unit has MOVs inside. They CLAIM that these do some sort of magical voodoo thing, which is pure unadulterated BS. But nonetheless, they ARE acting as surge suppressors. So adding surge suppressors to a system that sees a lot of surges, i.e. from utility side grid switching transients, will have the effect of reducing component failures. MOVs, as used in this device, are not the best form of accomplishing this only because with no monitoring circuit, you have no idea when they have done their job, but sacrificed themselves in doing it and are no longer there. If you want surge suppression, go buy a good surge suppressor with indicator lights and a surge counter so that you can do predictive maintenance, and one that is DESIGNED for the service size you have and the type of likely surges you can expect. But the BHPH is a very expensive, yet functionally inferior, surge suppressor.
> 
> If you are paying a PF penalty, use PFC capacitors DESIGNED to correct the PF at the offending loads, i.e. induction motors, not a one-size-fits-all "bulk" capacitor that is on all the time like the BHPH unit. When the caps are connected all the time, and the inductive motor load that was pulling down the PF turns off, the caps are still there and can give you a LEADING power factor, which is just as bad as a LAGGING power factor, if not worse, because it can make surges even higher (hence their MOVs by the way).
> 
> And if you are NOT being penalized for poor PF, as is the case with most single phase service customers, then doing this has such a negligible effect on energy consumption that it is not worth investing in, and in some cases has been shown to actually WASTE more energy.


the claim is not that it does some sort of a voo doo magic at all, but rather that it does just what you said in and increasing Power factor and saving capacitance power that gets fed back into the customers own grid when demand is put on their system because of a start up it does in effect reduce demand load. I agree that it is not for everyone because it is a costly item for a homeowner with a relatively small power bill, but a customer that is being charged large money for inefficient power by the power company does indeed benefit by those charges going away if the power gets cleaned up. I do not understand how that does not save money and a lot of money in a lot of cases. There has never been any claim that it reduces the amount of power that a 50 amp motor needs to run as some on here have ridiculously suggested it claims, just that it allows the customer to utilize his own already paid for power stored in the capacitors and thus reduces demand off the power company grid during a start up.


----------



## don_resqcapt19

Power Junkie said:


> the claim is not that it does some sort of a voo doo magic at all, but rather that it does just what you said in and increasing Power factor and saving capacitance power that gets fed back into the customers own grid when demand is put on their system because of a start up it does in effect reduce demand load. I agree that it is not for everyone because it is a costly item for a homeowner with a relatively small power bill, but a customer that is being charged large money for inefficient power by the power company does indeed benefit by those charges going away if the power gets cleaned up. I do not understand how that does not save money and a lot of money in a lot of cases. There has never been any claim that it reduces the amount of power that a 50 amp motor needs to run as some on here have ridiculously suggested it claims, just that it allows the customer to utilize his own already paid for power stored in the capacitors and thus reduces demand off the power company grid during a start up.


The only reduction in costs, assuming no power factor penalty, would be the very small reduction in the I²R losses on the conductors because the VARs have been supplied locally. This will save less than 1/2% of the KWH used. Not going to have a realistic payback.


----------



## telsa

Power Junkie said:


> the claim is not that it does some sort of a voo doo magic at all, but rather that it does just what you said in and increasing Power factor and saving capacitance power that gets fed back into the customers own grid when demand is put on their system because of a start up it does in effect reduce demand load. I agree that it is not for everyone because it is a costly item for a homeowner with a relatively small power bill, but a customer that is being charged large money for inefficient power by the power company does indeed benefit by those charges going away if the power gets cleaned up. I do not understand how that does not save money and a lot of money in a lot of cases. There has never been any claim that it reduces the amount of power that a 50 amp motor needs to run as some on here have ridiculously suggested it claims, just that it allows the customer to utilize his own already paid for power stored in the capacitors and thus reduces demand off the power company grid during a start up.


In most jurisdictions -- for simplicity and the politics -- the Pocos are NEVER permitted to pass on / bill the customer for transmission losses or over sized transmission lines to single-phase retail accounts -- single family homes in particular.

I can see by your missive -- above -- that you're not schooled -- at all -- in how Pocos bill for electric power. 

Keeping it simple: residential power rates are FLAT RATED by the AHJ -- typically the PUC (Public Utilities Commission or some such similar wording) so that the 'quality' of a residential installation -- power factor wise -- is entirely irrelevant.

The reason that power factor is relevant to the Poco only kicks in for Big Users that have LOTS of inductive loads. For such power consumers, the transmission system required to feed their facility has to be bumped up in size -- which gets seriously expensive.

None of this is even remotely true for a residential account -- whose load is virtually all resistance -- ovens, lights, water heaters -- with only a minor fraction as inductive loads -- the air conditioning compressor.

The only utility accounts with complex billing are BIG. They get, well used to get, a break on their rate per kWHr -- often a HUGE break. Some major accounts in the Michigan area (Union Carbide) were paying $ 0.015 per kWHr when home owners in Lansing were paying $ 0.045 per kWHr. ( Three times as much...)

Because of their super low energy rates -- such major customers were tagged with cost pass-thrus for every other expense. It's for such heavy users that Power Factor and transmission infrastructure expenses ever became a factor.

They NEVER were a factor in residential billing... and never will.:no:


----------



## NacBooster29

Can this thread die already!!! Arggg.


----------



## B-Nabs

Oh but but but I have a different/better answer for why this in fact is not magic or a hoax and makes perfect sense for everyone to buy! This topic has not in the least bit been beaten to death and ripped to shreds by anyone here with even a cursory understanding of power factor and PoCo billing practices!


----------



## Houston_electric

Chris, are you available to chat? I’m looking at the product now. {phone number removed by moderator. member can PM another member and share the phone number that way}



Porpoise13 said:


> *Blackhawk Powerhouse*
> 
> 
> 
> What makes you say I didn't do my homework??? You don't even know me!!! I went so far as to meet the inventor and speak with the Engineers behind this device! I've seen the patents...I've spoken to the happy customers...I've read the numerous testimonials...and I've seen first hand how it works! You speak out of ignorance! There are none so blind as those who refuse to see...Please do your own homework before you accuse others of not doing theirs!
> 
> Video info link-
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chris Kirkland
> Positive Energy
> Tampa FL


----------



## Kevin

Houston_electric said:


> Chris, are you available to chat? I’m looking at the product now. {phone number removed by moderator}


Please take a few minutes to fill out your profile. It's required. Here's a link with instructions to assist you with this simple task.

I am closing this thread.


----------



## 99cents

Houston_electric said:


> Chris, are you available to chat? I’m looking at the product now. {phone number removed by moderator}


He hasn’t visited the site since 2014.


----------



## Kevin

99cents said:


> He hasn’t visited the site since 2014.


That's something that is pretty common when these threads get bumped.


----------

