# Pipe vs mc in commercial panel rooms



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Just the code of honor..... I don't wanna see it in big open rooms where the piping and wiring is all nice and neatly run about 10" up off the floors on unistrut stantions , but teeny electrical closets - the kind with the sliding doors and panels set without any regard to clearances unless the open door trick serves the issue. In those kind of " electrical rooms" I could care less about it.


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

It's unprofessional at best. The wire-way setup is common, but on the walls is pretty hacky.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

I agree with @macmikeman and @joebanana 

But, I am also sometimes a slut and I'll wire you anyway I want if the price isn't right.


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## MotoGP1199 (Aug 11, 2014)

Word on the street is that if you wire MC in nice equipment rooms you run the risk of getting Corona virus. Just saying…. Is it worth it.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Workers have some leeway in how they install wiring systems, but for the most part The NEC, specifications, how a job was bid and the EC make that determination


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

joebanana said:


> It's unprofessional at best.


I still wonder how you tie your shoes every morning. Admit it, your work boots are Velcro, right?


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## JoeSparky (Mar 25, 2010)

Pipe looks nicer, but MC is quicker. You can still make MC look fairly decent. Unistrut over the panels with bundles of 4 or 5 under small loose clips doesn't look half bad. 
You guys are the only ones who care. The owners and contractors could care less. As long as you pass inspection and everything works. Anything else you are doing is for personal pride or bragging rights.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

I never understood the point of entering MC cables into a trough above the panel. It adds a significant amount of labor and material for absolutely zero benefit to the end user/owner whatsoever.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MTW said:


> I never understood the point of entering MC cables into a trough above the panel. It adds a significant amount of labor and material for absolutely zero benefit to the end user/owner whatsoever.


MC in a closet is "Unprofessional at best"! 

I'd hate to hear what he thinks it is "at worst". Terroristic? Child endangering? Animal abusing? Carcinogenic? 

WTF is wrong with some people???


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

It's your thing. Do whatcha gonna do. 

It's all looks good from my house.


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

Yes … MC cable can be used in an electrical room. 

NEC Outlines this in the following articles

Uses Permitted Sec. 330.10 (A) and (B)

Uses *Not* permitted [330.12]

I can't see running MC out of a panelboard because you can’t pull conductors into it if you ever wanted to add circuits. 

I would use it for fixture whips or to fish into a wall to add a receptacle. It works great for pulling through wood studs in a commercial setting but other than that I just prefer EMT and flex for steel stud. I would not use it electrical room. That's just my personal preference.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

I always matched existing as a personal rule. 

If the room is all conduit and I am adding something, I would run conduit. If there are other armoured cables, then I would do the same. Keep in mind I always worked for someone else so cost was not much of a factor on most jobs.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

eddy current said:


> I always matched existing as a personal rule.
> 
> If the room is all conduit and I am adding something, I would run conduit. If there are other armoured cables, then I would do the same. Keep in mind I always worked for someone else so cost was not much of a factor on most jobs.


This is what I do too, both in commercial and now that I do mostly resi.

If I need to run a circuit or feeder thru a garage, I will strap cable to the top of the wall or ceiling if there is already cable there, which there often is. But if it's a clean garage in a nicer house, then I will discuss it with the customer about running conduit, and let them decide if they want to pay extra for it.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

HackWork said:


> This is what I do too, both in commercial and now that I do mostly resi.
> 
> If I need to run a circuit or feeder thru a garage, I will strap cable to the top of the wall or ceiling if there is already cable there, which there often is. But if it's a clean garage in a nicer house, then I will discuss it with the customer about running conduit, and let them decide if they want to pay extra for it.


And I'm sure you have found that some customers actually do care about looks, but most don't, they care more about cost.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

eddy current said:


> And I'm sure you have found that some customers actually do care about looks, but most don't, they care more about cost.


Yup. They will spend the money if it gives them an advantage or it's safer. But if it's only about looks, they often wouldn't spend the money. To them, cable or pipe doesn't look very different.


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## WorcesterSavage (Jul 16, 2018)

MTW said:


> I never understood the point of entering MC cables into a trough above the panel. It adds a significant amount of labor and material for absolutely zero benefit to the end user/owner whatsoever.


The only real obvious advantage would be only having a few ground wires if not only one. makes the panels slightly less crowded.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

WorcesterSavage said:


> The only real obvious advantage would be only having a few ground wires if not only one. makes the panels slightly less crowded.


That still doesn't even come close to outweighing the huge amount of extra labor and material to put a trough in instead of entering the cables directly.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Why not just use BX cable so you have no grounds?


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> Why not just use BX cable so you have no grounds?


These days MC-AP makes much more sense, but I agree, anything that eliminates terminating grounds should be used.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MTW said:


> These days MC-AP makes much more sense, but I agree, anything that eliminates terminating grounds should be used.


I’m still not clear on the benefit. I thought we established that BX can be used anywhere we would need it. But I’m not positive.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> I’m still not clear on the benefit. I thought we established that BX can be used anywhere we would need it. But I’m not positive.


I haven't seen BX used here in buildings older than the mid to late 80's, it went out of fashion long ago in favor of MC. But we have AFC Cable in our backyard driving the market so that has a lot to do with it. BX is not usually stocked or available locally but can be obtained from the supplier warehouse or direct from AFC to the supply house in a day or two if need be. 

At any rate, either BX or MC-Ap would be suitable to eliminate grounds code wise but I could choose MC-Ap because I hate unwrapping the paper on BX cable.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

MTW said:


> I haven't seen BX used here in buildings older than the mid to late 80's, it went out of fashion long ago in favor of MC. But we have AFC Cable in our backyard driving the market so that has a lot to do with it. BX is not usually stocked or available locally but can be obtained from the supplier warehouse or direct from AFC to the supply house in a day or two if need be.
> 
> At any rate, either BX or MC-Ap would be suitable to eliminate grounds code wise but I could choose MC-Ap because I hate unwrapping the paper on BX cable.


Doing a job entirely in MC-AP is on my check list of things to do. For some reason, it just hasn't worked out yet.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

MHElectric said:


> Doing a job entirely in MC-AP is on my check list of things to do. For some reason, it just hasn't worked out yet.


I'd be happy to install one coil of it just to see how it goes.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

MTW said:


> I'd be happy to install one coil of it just to see how it goes.


Me too. I haven't even been able to use any yet.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

MHElectric said:


> Me too. I haven't even been able to use any yet.


I looked at a short piece of it sitting on a supply house counter (made by AFC) for a demo when it first came out, I liked the idea a lot but it's not my market so I don't use it. If I was doing commercial all the time, it would be a no-brainer.


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## JoeSparky (Mar 25, 2010)

I was going to suggest MC-ap. Then I looked at pricing at home depot  

250ft coils all Southwire
:biggrin: $93.46 12/2 MC 
lain:$104.68 12/2 BX aluminum jacket
:sad:$151.10 12/2 MCap stranded


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

JoeSparky said:


> I was going to suggest MC-ap. Then I looked at pricing at home depot
> 
> 250ft coils all Southwire
> :biggrin: $93.46 12/2 MC
> ...


Hmmm, not too good, but that could easily save $50 or more on labor depending on the terminations. It's also stranded, you know nobody uses stranded MC here. :no:

What's your pricing at NE? EW?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Stranded MC cable is gayer than not having an avatar.


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## JoeSparky (Mar 25, 2010)

MTW said:


> Hmmm, not too good, but that could easily save $50 or more on labor depending on the terminations. It's also stranded, you know nobody uses stranded MC here. :no:
> 
> What's your pricing at NE? EW?


NE
Afc Cable Inc. 3104-60-00 12/2 Solid 1000 Foot Reel Mc-Quik Lite Cable
$412.45 / 1000ft
not in stock - 8 days

EW
MCAP122 Copper Conductor Aluminum All-Purpose MC Armored Cable 12/2 250-ft Coil
$123.73 / 250ft
not in stock

Either way, I am probably in the same boat as you. Usually only use 1 or 2 coils a year - boilers and the occasional small commercial call.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Well, like typical New Englanders we are afraid of anything new, hence why it's not in stock. It will probably catch on in another 5 years, just like everything else. I remember when the Ideal rep told me we are still the only part of the country that buys the old fashioned yellow and red wire nuts in great quantities. He said this part of the country is the most resistant to change.


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## electricalwiz (Mar 12, 2011)

MTW said:


> I looked at a short piece of it sitting on a supply house counter (made by AFC) for a demo when it first came out, I liked the idea a lot but it's not my market so I don't use it. If I was doing commercial all the time, it would be a no-brainer.


I have not used regular MC in at least 5 years
I go through reels and reels of MCAP every year 
The price of the wire is about the same but the connectors are a bit more, but the savings in labor is huge 
The only downside is in NJ, a lot of the inspectors dont know what it is, so I have to keep the paperwork from one the reels for the inspector


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

electricalwiz said:


> I have not used regular MC in at least 5 years
> I go through reels and reels of MCAP every year
> The price of the wire is about the same but the connectors are a bit more, but the savings in labor is huge
> The only downside is in NJ, a lot of the inspectors dont know what it is, so I have to keep the paperwork from one the reels for the inspector


It's interesting how this product has really taken off in some areas, but is almost unheard-of in other places.


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## electricalwiz (Mar 12, 2011)

MHElectric said:


> It's interesting how this product has really taken off in some areas, but is almost unheard-of in other places.


I would not say it has taken off
I know of a couple companies that use it 
My local supply house stocks it just for the few of us that buy
I rarely see it on any jobs that we demo


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## HertzHound (Jan 22, 2019)

I haven't seen or used regular MC in probably ten years. Whenever MC-AP came out. Probably the biggest advantage is for lighting. No more dealing with the ground in small junction boxes. Dealing with the ground screw in the plate of a Lay-in is a thing of the past. 



I had a hard time explaining to a guy that he didn't need to do anything with the little green wire that was inside an LED Lay-in. He was insistent that he needed to tap a ground screw in the plate of the Lay-in. The plate didn't come with a ground screw. The wire was there if you have a wiring method that has a wire type ground. The plate had a screw to fasten the plate to the back of the fixture. There was continuity between the skinny ground wire and the and the fixture with a tester, so there was no reason ground the wire back to itself! His argument was what happened if someone took the plate fastening screw out and the plate comes off the back of the fixture. There's a point where you just have to say "Start taping ground screws, and you check will be out this afternoon"!



Just did a job that that had a lot of point of sale outlets and circuits that used isolated ground receptacles. For that we used HCF MC-AP. The type normally used in hospitals with the redundant ground. The armor was the ground to the box and the green just went on the device. The big waste of money was the isolated ground system itself. The receptacles were just for ipad chargers that sit on the counter! WTF!


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HertzHound said:


> I had a hard time explaining to a guy that he didn't need to do anything with the little green wire that was inside an LED Lay-in. He was insistent that he needed to tap a ground screw in the plate of the Lay-in. The plate didn't come with a ground screw. The wire was there if you have a wiring method that has a wire type ground. The plate had a screw to fasten the plate to the back of the fixture. There was continuity between the skinny ground wire and the and the fixture with a tester, so there was no reason ground the wire back to itself! His argument was what happened if someone took the plate fastening screw out and the plate comes off the back of the fixture. There's a point where you just have to say "Start taping ground screws, and you check will be out this afternoon"!


Sounds like someone who's been completely indoctrinated with "Green wire good. Everything else bad." He needs intervention.





> Just did a job that that had a lot of point of sale outlets and circuits that used isolated ground receptacles. For that we used HCF MC-AP. The type normally used in hospitals with the redundant ground. The armor was the ground to the box and the green just went on the device. The big waste of money was the isolated ground system itself. The receptacles were just for ipad chargers that sit on the counter! WTF!


Definitely an old spec still being used. Iso ground needs to go to the grave.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I can't get MC-AP at my local supply house. There are other supply houses I could get it at, but don't feel like going there.

I'm still wondering why people don't just use aluminum sheathed BX cable more? If you can use it anywhere that we use MC, why not use it?


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## HertzHound (Jan 22, 2019)

Maybe no one wants to deal with the red heads? Does BX still have the paper warped around the conductors?


Doesn't Cooper Electric have it in stock? Ours usually comes from Ace Wire or Gallant & Wein. Drop shipped. They ship to NYC everyday, so north Jersey shouldn't be a problem. I don't know what the minimum is.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

HertzHound said:


> Maybe no one wants to deal with the red heads? Does BX still have the paper warped around the conductors?
> 
> 
> Doesn't Cooper Electric have it in stock? Ours usually comes from Ace Wire or Gallant & Wein. Drop shipped. They ship to NYC everyday, so north Jersey shouldn't be a problem. I don't know what the minimum is.


Yeah, I am sure I could find it at Cooper and the other big boys.

As for BX, I believe it still has the paper.


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## HertzHound (Jan 22, 2019)

Sargent scrap is still running trucks. It's time for the end of job clean out:vs_OMG::biggrin:. It's a shame all the bars and restaurants are closed to be able to throw a party.


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