# Violation of tagout



## bill39

The first thing to do is make sure there aren't any witnesses when you beat the sh#t out of them.


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## bill39

bill39 said:


> The first thing to do is make sure there aren't any witnesses when you beat the sh#t out of them.



Oops, I just noticed you're in Canada,but that's what we'd do in the good old USA.


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## AK_sparky

From what I recall, it can be a Criminal Code offense, even if no injury occurs. I would call the Ministry of Labour from a pay-phone, and just ask some questions.


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## MechanicalDVR

If this is something you pulled a permit on and the guy made some modifications I'd act in kind and make a few mods to his body. We have crab traps to bait soon.


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## Signal1

I don't know Canada stuff, but a good tune-up maybe.......with a hockey stick?

Seriously, I would follow AK's advice.


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## Krolman

AK_sparky said:


> From what I recall, it can be a Criminal Code offense, even if no injury occurs. I would call the Ministry of Labour from a pay-phone, and just ask some questions.


This seems like the best thing to do. Thank you :thumbup:


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## LuckyLuke

AK_sparky said:


> From what I recall, it can be a Criminal Code offense, even if no injury occurs. I would call the Ministry of Labour from a pay-phone, and just ask some questions.


Next question would be "where do I find a pay phone"


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## Krolman

LuckyLuke said:


> Next question would be "where do I find a pay phone"


Actually there is one like 1 mins away, plus there is always the subway station. :jester:


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## sbrn33

Krolman said:


> What to do if someone were remove your tag out? Then did a modification and they(offender) are not an apprentice or electrician?
> 
> This is in accordance to Canadian law


Are we talking LOTO? If so I would grab my lock and walk away if they did it when I was not on the job. If I was in an industrial environment I would report it to the main man.


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## Jlarson

Kick it up to your manager, compliance officer, whatever. Asking some under the radar questions to the authorities ain't a bad idea either just so you know where you stands now and in future situations.



bill39 said:


> The first thing to do is make sure there aren't any witnesses when you beat the sh#t out of them.


I offer free cosmetic surgery preformed with a conduit bender as a prize for screwing with my locks. :thumbsup:


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## flyboy

AK_sparky said:


> From what I recall, it can be a Criminal Code offense, even if no injury occurs. I would call the Ministry of Labour from a pay-phone, and just ask some questions.


What's a pay phone?


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## Oakey

flyboy said:


> What's a pay phone?


Was just thinking that


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## emtnut

Krolman said:


> What to do if someone were remove your tag out? Then did a modification and they(offender) are not an apprentice or electrician?
> 
> This is in accordance to Canadian law


Who is the 'someone' ? Is this Industrial, and a mechanic removed it ?
First time it happened ? Why did he/she remove it ? Are there ongoing issues between trades here ? 

Tag outs I've used are with a key lock ... is this the case? if so, where did they get the key ?

Did you talk to the person who did it ? What did they say ?

I could go on ....

Don't get me wrong, if someone removed my lock out, there would be a sh!t show ... but you really didn't give many details :001_unsure:


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## Cow

flyboy said:


> What's a pay phone?


Yeah, on tv the bad guys are always using burner phones when they want to be anonymous. Nobody has time to drive around looking for pay phones.:jester:


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## papaotis

anyone here have a FREE phone? hook me up!


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## MechanicalDVR

papaotis said:


> anyone here have a FREE phone? hook me up!


I doubt any one here has an Obama-phone. 

On second thought there could be three members that possibly may...


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## billymac93

My two cents as both a longtime industrial electrician and H&S rep - get some answers! The life you save might be your own. The "green book" puts the onus on the employer to have a LOTO program and to enforce it. Without the generation of a paper trail on this incident, it never happened. That's how the MOL would look at it.


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## PlugsAndLights

I've seen dumb-asses forget to take their lock(s) off before going home at the 
end of the day and then whine endlessly cause someone else cut the lock off. 
So, the right action depends on the details. 
P&L


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## billymac93

P & L;
I've been on both sides of the "dumb-ass" argument you present. Once it has been confirmed that "dumbass" has left the building - and only then, is it permissible to cut off the lock. Personally, I'd want to confirm that he was finished and forgot about the lock instead of assuming anything.


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## Krolman

Its was left there as an in progress, no time at the end of day also no one to watch me. also under further inspection in the company policy and procedures book at work there is nothing for LOTO.... only that we are to receive a copy when hired...


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## ponyboy

We have to transfer locks from personal to departmental at the end of the shift if there's any chance the work needs to continue into the other shifts. In the event that the personal lock isn't removed the owners photo and contact info is on the tag. With all that being said I don't think anyone here would remove a lock that wasn't theirs, it's not worth the trouble. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## macmikeman

Wrap chains around your end of the busbars . That teaches the lock removers how to not cut your lock and throw the switch on.


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## AK_sparky

macmikeman said:


> Wrap chains around your end of the busbars . That teaches the lock removers how to not cut your lock and throw the switch on.


Yup, I've seen the blame game following a similar move. It ended up in court, and the supervisor who told the guy to cut the lock lost. The worker-bee that cut the lock also got a slap on the wrist.

Most places I've worked have a strict procedure for removing a forgotten lock, but at least there is a procedure in the event that it has to happen.


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## Big John

AK_sparky said:


> Most places I've worked have a strict procedure for removing a forgotten lock, but at least there is a procedure in the event that it has to happen.


 Ayuh, I forgot a lock at a plant and had to sign and fax a ton of paperwork before they could cut it.

I'm fine with that: I'd rather they take it overly serious than not serious enough.


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## MechanicalDVR

Big John said:


> Ayuh, I forgot a lock at a plant and had to sign and fax a ton of paperwork before they could cut it.
> 
> I'm fine with that: I'd rather they take it overly serious than not serious enough.


They took it seriously which could have been very wise on their part.


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## Old Brian

Krolman said:


> What to do if someone were remove your tag out? Then did a modification and they(offender) are not an apprentice or electrician?
> 
> This is in accordance to Canadian law


Workplace safety is governed in Canada by CSA Z462. From your post it sounds like there are two issues. The lock removal is the first issue, and the electrical work by an unauthorized person is the other. 

Do you work for a company that just talks the talk, or do they also walk the walk. If it's the latter, complain to your supervisor. If it's the former, a chat with the authorities might be in order.

Cheers,
Brian


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## LARMGUY

billymac93 said:


> P & L;
> I've been on both sides of the "dumb-ass" argument you present. Once it has been confirmed that "dumbass" has left the building - and only then, is it permissible to cut off the lock. Personally, I'd want to confirm that he was finished and forgot about the lock instead of assuming anything.


This^^^^


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## John Valdes

MechanicalDVR said:


> I doubt any one here has an Obama-phone.


Maybe we need a new name for free phones. Seems Obama inherited this phone program and not the other way around. 
This program had been in effect long before Obama was elected.

The Universal Service Fund has been supplying land lines for free until 2008 when cell phones were included. Cell phones were included before Obama was sworn in.
So, Maybe we should call them Reagan phones? Clinton phones? Bush phones?
You guys listen to to much talk radio. 

http://www.obamaphone.com/obama-phone-faqs


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## splatz

The Universal Service Fund was not put in place to give anyone free service. It does not as far as I know fund free land lines. It was more what you'd call a "Funded Mandate." Keep in mind that phone service in the US was for decades very tightly regulated and very nearly a government sanctioned monopoly. 

Telco local exchange carriers were required to provide telephone service to everyone. If it was not for this mandate, nobody would have bothered stringing wire down country roads where the population density is low and the payoff for the infrastructure would never come. The Universal Service Fund was to compensate the cost to deliver service in those sparse areas.


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## MechanicalDVR

John Valdes said:


> Maybe we need a new name for free phones. Seems Obama inherited this phone program and not the other way around.
> This program had been in effect long before Obama was elected.
> 
> The Universal Service Fund has been supplying land lines for free until 2008 when cell phones were included. Cell phones were included before Obama was sworn in.
> So, Maybe we should call them Reagan phones? Clinton phones? Bush phones?
> You guys listen to to much talk radio.
> 
> http://www.obamaphone.com/obama-phone-faqs


But it seemed to gain popularity as did all the handout programs under the odumbass administration.

Hey there you have it, we can call them the 'odumbass' phones!:thumbup:


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## MechanicalDVR

John Valdes said:


> Maybe we need a new name for free phones. Seems Obama inherited this phone program and not the other way around.
> This program had been in effect long before Obama was elected.
> 
> The Universal Service Fund has been supplying land lines for free until 2008 when cell phones were included. Cell phones were included before Obama was sworn in.
> So, Maybe we should call them Reagan phones? Clinton phones? Bush phones?
> You guys listen to to much talk radio.
> 
> http://www.obamaphone.com/obama-phone-faqs


*I just looked at the link and you are absolutely wrong John!*

There were no phones involved before odumbass took over.

"Expansion of the Lifeline program to *add coverage of cell phones* took place in 2008"


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## John Valdes

I think you are the one that's wrong. Phones, not just cell phones.

"_The FCC established the Lifeline program in 1985 to ensure that qualifying low-income consumers could afford phone service and the opportunities and security it provides. Congress supported and strengthened Lifeline in the Telecommunications Act of 1996_"

https://www.fcc.gov/consumers/guides/lifeline-support-affordable-communications


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## macmikeman

Is this the Controversial forum? Or an electrical post? I thought it was about lockout and tagout but I could be mistaken I guess.


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## MechanicalDVR

John Valdes said:


> I think you are the one that's wrong. Phones, not just cell phones.
> 
> "_The FCC established the Lifeline program in 1985 to ensure that qualifying low-income consumers could afford phone service and the opportunities and security it provides. Congress supported and strengthened Lifeline in the Telecommunications Act of 1996_"
> 
> https://www.fcc.gov/consumers/guides/lifeline-support-affordable-communications


The subject of your post was a new name for "obama phones", nobody I know thinks of a land line when using the title "obama phone". How many people even have land lines in their house any more?


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## Speedy Petey

bill39 said:


> Oops, I just noticed you're in Canada,but that's what we'd do in the good old USA.


Up there it's just called hockey.


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## John Valdes

macmikeman said:


> Is this the Controversial forum? Or an electrical post? I thought it was about lockout and tagout but I could be mistaken I guess.


No you're right.


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## MechanicalDVR

macmikeman said:


> Is this the Controversial forum? Or an electrical post? I thought it was about lockout and tagout but I could be mistaken I guess.


Now if we could only lock out and tag out those phones...:whistling2:


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## HackWork

macmikeman said:


> Is this the Controversial forum? Or an electrical post? I thought it was about lockout and tagout but I could be mistaken I guess.


I wish you had this ambition when I made you an Admin.


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## LARMGUY

MechanicalDVR said:


> Now if we could only lock out and tag out those phones...:whistling2:


Yeah, my new company wants a mandatory 15 minute answer and acceptance via email to each new service ticket created and assigned to our queue. 

I have signed the paperwork that I will not text and drive, therefore I'm going to have a lot of driving time because I'm going to pull over when I get an email requiring an answer.


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## MechanicalDVR

LARMGUY said:


> Yeah, my new company wants a mandatory 15 minute answer and acceptance via email to each new service ticket created and assigned to our queue.
> 
> I have signed the paperwork that I will not text and drive, therefore I'm going to have a lot of driving time because I'm going to pull over when I get an email requiring an answer.


Everything comes with a cost! It is what it is.


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## Krolman

Welp left the company, now with IBEW for my apprenticeship, yay. I also learned upon leaving the safety person said there is no LOTO policy....


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## mitch65

PlugsAndLights said:


> I've seen dumb-asses forget to take their lock(s) off before going home at the
> end of the day and then whine endlessly cause someone else cut the lock off.
> So, the right action depends on the details.
> P&L


I got called back to a jobsite to take a lock off during a shutdown at a power plant here a couple of years ago. Their policy is to never cut off locks, if they do have to, the plant manager hears about it.


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## mitch65

Krolman said:


> What to do if someone were remove your tag out? Then did a modification and they(offender) are not an apprentice or electrician?
> 
> This is in accordance to Canadian law


At any industrial site I have worked on in the past 15 years, that would be grounds for immediate termination. Legally, unless there was property damage or personal injury, I don't know what would be done. That chit kills people.


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## LARMGUY

Krolman said:


> Welp left the company, now with IBEW for my apprenticeship, yay. I also learned upon leaving the safety person said there is no LOTO policy....


No LOTO?

They need a whoopins.


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## Semi-Ret Electrician

I worked as a contractor for a large American manufactorer. We had an excellent electrician repairing a lighting circuit and left the plant with his lock on a area breaker.

I liked the guy, walked the area, found nothing dangerous and recommended we cut his lock. No luck and the super was going to send the night crew home, if they had no light.

I learned only the plant manager could authorize cutting a lock. And, nobody would talk to him.

Well the electrician was located 50 miles away, drove back, removed his lock and was fired.


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## MechanicalDVR

Semi-Ret Electrician said:


> I worked as a contractor for a large American manufactorer. We had an excellent electrician repairing a lighting circuit and left the plant with his lock on a area breaker.
> 
> I liked the guy, walked the area, found nothing dangerous and recommended we cut his lock. No luck and the super was going to send the night crew home, if they had no light.
> 
> I learned only the plant manager could authorize cutting a lock. And, nobody would talk to him.
> 
> Well the electrician was located 50 miles away, drove back, removed his lock and was fired.


Firing is harsh for one mistake but rules are rules.


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## AlbanBenson

The lockout/Tagout procedure is designed to not perform work on the equipment until the lockout/Tagout procedure has been adequately followed. When employees perform lockout/Tagout procedures, their work is limited to visual inspection of the equipment. Lockout/Tagout procedures are designed to prevent injuries by isolating the energy source. Anyway, you should use only high-quality equipment. I bought a nice set from TRADESAFE. These guys are using only high-quality materials, and they got the best reviews.


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## Majewski

Krolman said:


> What to do if someone were remove your tag out? Then did a modification and they(offender) are not an apprentice or electrician?
> 
> This is in accordance to Canadian law


you steal their dog and bang their wife. its the rules.


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## MechanicalDVR

Majewski said:


> you steal their dog and bang their wife. its the rules.


Not in the southern states where most of us are well armed.


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## taglicious

MechanicalDVR said:


> Not in the southern states where most of us are well armed.


Its ok. We wont. You have my seconds anyway. 'Cuz all my exes live in Texas' 😘


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## taglicious

Incidentally, i still have my first set of LOTO. It was an honor to have the last set handed back to me by the job super/owner (i gave him the keys to unlock the last meter) of a 165 unit complex. We had a job meeting about power with all trades as we were powering up 1 unit at a time to final trim, a line was drawn, and the guy stepped over it. I had AHJ & PUD there to have a chat after I loaded up on LOTO FOR ALL METER PACKS. Ainobody cuttng my locks off


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## Majewski

taglicious said:


> Incidentally, i still have my first set of LOTO. It was an honor to have the last set handed back to me by the job super/owner (i gave him the keys to unlock the last meter) of a 165 unit complex. We had a job meeting about power with all trades as we were powering up 1 unit at a time to final trim, a line was drawn, and the guy stepped over it. I had AHJ & PUD there to have a chat after I loaded up on LOTO FOR ALL METER PACKS. Ainobody cuttng my locks off
> View attachment 160628


Yeah! So there!


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## taglicious

Majewski said:


> Yeah! So there!


Jealousy i see it 😜


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