# New 200-amp Service



## BIGRED (Jan 22, 2007)

I did this 200-amp service change in September 2010.


----------



## BIGRED (Jan 22, 2007)

Three more pictures.


----------



## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Were you in the Mickey Mouse club? Why did you make Mickey Mouse ears out of your service entrance conductors? :001_huh:....I think I would of ran them straight into lugs.....also I think I would of put that exposed SE from meter in an Lb and Pvc too. Looks good other than that.:thumbsup:


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Nevermind


----------



## BIGRED (Jan 22, 2007)

Sometimes I do the "ears" and sometimes I don't. No PVC, not needed.


----------



## BIGRED (Jan 22, 2007)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Nevermind


It is coming out with the SE cable, to the grounding block then down to the rod.


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

BIGRED said:


> It is coming out with the SE cable, to the grounding block then down to the rod.


 I thought that was a piece of #12 that was I wrote nevermind.-- I figured it must be a #6 or #8


----------



## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

You guys are lucky. Those are so easy to change out,..and you probably make more money doing them:blink:


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Could someone explain the Mickey Mouse ears to me?


----------



## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

SE cable? Yeech...pvc at least, imc at best.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Could someone explain the Mickey Mouse ears to me?


I will try to cornpatch

It is called _'slack' or 'extra'_ and some folks find having 'slack or extra wire' a good thing if a termination needs to be redone.


How is that?


----------



## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

480sparky said:


> Could someone explain the Mickey Mouse ears to me?


 
The loop in the wire before it terminates to the main breaker

We call them bull horns around here.

I do them when ever possible.Panels,hot tubs,meters,ac units,etc etc.

Makes the wire easier to terminate and if the lugs ever burn up they give you something to work with.


----------



## BIGRED (Jan 22, 2007)

BuzzKill said:


> SE cable? Yeech...pvc at least, imc at best.


No one does pipe in these parts, SE is the norm.


----------



## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

robnj772 said:


> The loop in the wire before it terminates to the main breaker
> 
> We call them bull horns around here.
> 
> ...


So do you do MM ears at the main disco, in addition to the panel?


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

robnj772 said:


> ........ if the lugs ever burn up they give you something to work with.





BBQ said:


> .........It is called _'slack' or 'extra'_ and some folks find having 'slack or extra wire' a good thing if a termination needs to be redone........


Gotcha. Guess I'm gonna have to start doing poor terminations then. :laughing:


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

BIGRED said:


> No one does pipe in these parts, SE is the norm.


And yet the city is not burning down. :thumbsup:

My area uses lots of SE as well, those from pipe areas just cannot get it into their minds that SE is not a tool of the devil. :laughing:


----------



## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

BIGRED said:


> No one does pipe in these parts, SE is the norm.


I see them around here, too; personal preference, profit margin, etc. I like mine to still be standing after a tornado takes the house down.


----------



## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

BBQ said:


> And yet the city is not burning down. :thumbsup:
> 
> My area uses lots of SE as well, those from pipe areas just cannot get it into their minds that SE is not a tool of the devil. :laughing:


I am an amateur exorcist.


----------



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

BIGRED said:


> No one does pipe in these parts, SE is the norm.


 

So you're just a normal, everyday, conformist electrician?

I would have came out the back of the meter


----------



## I_get_shocked (Apr 6, 2009)

could you have moved the meter over to the right to have the load side come in straight? Panel looks clean.


----------



## BIGRED (Jan 22, 2007)

mcclary's electrical said:


> So you're just a normal, everyday, conformist electrician?
> 
> I would have came out the back of the meter


Pipe = higher price = no job, never in the back.


----------



## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

mcclary's electrical said:


> I would have came out the back of the meter


For a tiny little meter like that I would want a meter/disco combo in order to make that work.


----------



## BIGRED (Jan 22, 2007)

I_get_shocked said:


> could you have moved the meter over to the right to have the load side come in straight? Panel looks clean.


It looks fine to me.


----------



## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

BIGRED said:


> It looks fine to me.



Wrong answer.........the check cleared and I made money.....Who cares what you think...:thumbup:


----------



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

BIGRED said:


> Pipe = higher price = no job, never in the back.


 

You lose the bid for $5 bucks worth of PVC?


----------



## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

I guess it's just me that considers 150+amp wires run up the side of a house sheathed in thin plastic "subject to physical damage".


----------



## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

BuzzKill said:


> I guess it's just me that considers 150+amp wires run up the side of a house sheathed in thin plastic "subject to physical damage".




90% of the services we do we pipe. The other 10% is done in Se. I don't lose any sleep over it.:no::laughing:


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

BuzzKill said:


> I guess it's just me that considers 150+amp wires run up the side of a house sheathed in thin plastic "subject to physical damage".



And I guess it is the "There are millions of SE services and there is not a trail of smoldering ruins" thing that puts such things to the side.


----------



## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

BBQ said:


> And I guess it is the "There are millions of SE services and there is not a trail of smoldering ruins" thing that puts such things to the side.


Boooo! :laughing:


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Nappy hair :laughing:


----------



## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

BBQ said:


> Nappy hair :laughing:


at one time I did resemble Vivyan!


----------



## BIGRED (Jan 22, 2007)

BuzzKill said:


> I guess it's just me that considers 150+amp wires run up the side of a house sheathed in thin plastic "subject to physical damage".


Did you see this?


----------



## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

yeah apparently the guy works for some rat!


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

I'm with the pipe crowd. That SE cable just freaks me out. I mean really it would be different if it was fused and not subject to damage. You never run romex like that and it's usually protected at 15 or 20 amps.
Easy does not make it right.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

I have yet to install an SE service.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

480sparky said:


> I have yet to install an SE service.


Or act socially acceptable

Or have a TV

Or drink

Or smoke


So basically you are a nut case that cannot be trusted to decide what is right. :laughing::laughing:


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

BBQ said:


> And yet the city is not burning down. :thumbsup:
> 
> My area uses lots of SE as well, those from pipe areas just cannot get it into their minds that SE is not a tool of the devil. :laughing:


 SE is a tool of the devil:laughing:


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

BIGRED said:


> Pipe = higher price = no job, never in the back.


 every body is charging the same price


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

BBQ said:


> Or act socially acceptable
> 
> Or have a TV
> 
> ...


You need to learn to read.




I have a TV. I just don't _watch_ it much.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

480sparky said:


> You need to learn to read.


And you need to get some new material. :laughing::laughing:


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

BBQ said:


> And you need to get some new material. :laughing::laughing:



Why? You never understand it anyway. Even the simple stuff must be above your intelligence. :jester:


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

BuzzKill said:


> I guess it's just me that considers 150+amp wires run up the side of a house sheathed in thin plastic "subject to physical damage".


 Your not the only one:thumbup:


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

480sparky said:


> I have yet to install an SE service.


 Me nether:laughing:


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Even the simple stuff must be above your intelligence.


Must be. :whistling2:


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

BBQ said:


> And I guess it is the "There are millions of SE services and there is not a trail of smoldering ruins" thing that puts such things to the side.


Yes ther are millions of them and after a few years there is water leaking into the panels,,never see that with pipe.


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

BuzzKill said:


> yeah apparently the guy works for some rat!


 :laughing::laughing:


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

HARRY304E said:


> Yes ther are millions of them and after a few years there is water leaking into the panels,,never see that with pipe.


Harry don't just say stupid crap because you will be called on it. :laughing::laughing:


----------



## davis9 (Mar 21, 2009)

BIGRED said:


> Pipe = higher price = no job, never in the back.



Why never come out the back of the meter socket? Just wondering.

SE is very common here as well, I do prefer pipe on Vinyl siding but hey whatever the customer wants to pay for.

Tom
This is SE on my own house.:thumbsup:


----------



## vos (Apr 1, 2010)

I thought that you couldn't paint SE??


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

vos said:


> I thought that you couldn't paint SE??


There is no such NEC rule that I know of.


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Paint it!! Hell you shouldn't even use it:laughing:


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

sbrn33 said:


> Paint it!! Hell you shouldn't even use it:laughing:



:laughing::laughing:


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

BBQ said:


> Harry don't just say stupid crap because you will be called on it. :laughing::laughing:


 You can call it stupid if you want, in fact i am happy that a lott of guys use SE because as time goes by the duct seal breaks down if it was even installed in the first place then water travels along the cable right into the panel then i get the call and end up intsalling pipe and wire


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

BBQ said:


> Harry don't just say stupid crap because you will be called on it. :laughing::laughing:


 Take a look at the piture where the se goes into the house just duct seal and no sill plate that duct seal is going to dry up and crack then water will will get right in:laughing:


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

sbrn33 said:


> Paint it!! Hell you shouldn't even use it:laughing:


 Good call:laughing::laughing:


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

HARRY304E said:


> Yes ther are millions of them and after a few years there is water leaking into the panels,,never see that with pipe.





me said:


> That is stupid





HARRY304E said:


> You can call it stupid if you want, in fact i am happy that a lott of guys use SE because as time goes by the duct seal breaks down if it was even installed in the first place then water travels along the cable right into the panel then i get the call and end up intsalling pipe and wire






I also see water coming in through conduits so I guess we can't use pipe either. :laughing::laughing:


----------



## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Nice job big red. :thumbsup:


----------



## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

HARRY304E said:


> You can call it stupid if you want, in fact i am happy that a lott of guys use SE because as time goes by the duct seal breaks down if it was even installed in the first place then water travels along the cable right into the panel then i get the call and end up intsalling pipe and wire


Some of us don't use that duct seal crap. :thumbsup:


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

HARRY304E said:


> Take a look at the piture where the se goes into the house just duct seal and no sill plate that duct seal is going to dry up and crack then water will will get right in:laughing:


And that is different than duct sealed pipe how? 

:laughing:

Personally I am a silicone user, I think duct seal is to retro. :laughing:


----------



## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

We don't use SE at all in Canada. I find it odd that it's code compliant.


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

BBQ said:


> I also see water coming in through conduits so I guess we can't use pipe either. :laughing::laughing:


 Nope:laughing::laughing:


----------



## davis9 (Mar 21, 2009)

vos said:


> I thought that you couldn't paint SE??


It was painted when I bought the place and I added a fresh coat when I painted the house this summer.:thumbup:
When SE gets older it needs a good coat of paint. To keep the water out.LOL

Tom

It seems the newer SE is a PITA to work with but may last longer than the original style.


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

electricmanscott said:


> Some of us don't use that duct seal crap. :thumbsup:


 silicone:thumbsup:


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

BBQ said:


> And that is different than duct sealed pipe how?
> 
> :laughing:
> 
> Personally I am a silicone user, I think duct seal is to retro. :laughing:


 I have seen water coming on pipe too but is rare and its because of poor workmanship:laughing: 
I use silicone :thumbsup:


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

davis9 said:


> It was painted when I bought the place and I added a fresh coat when I painted the house this summer.:thumbup:
> When SE gets older it needs a good coat of paint. To keep the water out.LOL
> 
> Tom
> ...


 Yup that water proof paint works well:laughing::laughing:


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

BBQ said:


> I also see water coming in through conduits so I guess we can't use pipe either. :laughing::laughing:



Time for Bob to start marketing his wireless services. :whistling2:


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

HARRY304E said:


> I have seen water coming on pipe too but is rare


BS meter climbing:laughing:



> and its because of poor workmanship


The same as SE, install SE correctly and it will not leak.


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

BBQ said:


> BS meter climbing:laughing:
> 
> 
> 
> The same as SE, install SE correctly and it will not leak.





> install SE correctly and it will not leak


Yes thats right as long as its in pipe:laughing::laughing:


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

​


----------



## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

^^^^^^^^ :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: ^^^^^^^^^^^^


I hate using that "SE stuff" too but I'll install it if the customer wants it. 


Red, that's a beautiful looking service. 

Q: Was there the possibility of flush mounting it?


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Magnettica said:


> ..............I hate using that "SE stuff" too but I'll install it if the customer wants it. ..........



I've never had anyone willing to do so. I bid pipe, and if they want cheaper, I'll offer SE. But so far, no takers.


----------



## BIGRED (Jan 22, 2007)

Magnettica said:


> ^^^^^^^^ :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: ^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> 
> I hate using that "SE stuff" too but I'll install it if the customer wants it.
> ...


Flush mounting the panel? The existing panel that I took out was surfaced mounted, the walls had paneling but it was in an unfinished area of the basement.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

​


----------



## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

Nice work BigRed. Clean Safe and Legal.


----------



## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

BIGRED said:


> Flush mounting the panel? The existing panel that I took out was surfaced mounted, the walls had paneling but it was in an unfinished area of the basement.


I wasn't being serious. Paneling's funny isn't it? :laughing:


----------



## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

Not to nitpick, but doesn't the wall to the left and shelving to the right of the panel intrude into the 30" clearance requirement?


----------



## crazymurph (Aug 19, 2009)

480sparky said:


>


 Is that your wife Ken?


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

480sparky said:


>


 Especially in copper conduit! :laughing::laughing:


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

crazymurph said:


> Is that your wife Ken?


Yeah, but that pix was taken back in '67.:laughing:


----------



## I_get_shocked (Apr 6, 2009)

I don't know of anything in the NEC but I have heard an inspector say that painting violates the UV rating


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

I_get_shocked said:


> I don't know of anything in the NEC but I have heard an inspector say that painting violates the UV rating



My guess is that painting it covers up the required markings from the manufacturer.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

480sparky said:


> My guess is that painting it covers up the required markings from the manufacturer.


So does placing NM in a wall.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

BBQ said:


> So does placing NM in a wall.



OK, so let's see if I have what it takes to be a real electrician now:

Don't use SE cable.
Don't use Carlon boxes.
Don't install risers on houses.
Don't install NM inside of walls.

Did I miss anything? :laughing:


----------



## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

480sparky said:


> OK, so let's see if I have what it takes to be a real electrician now:
> 
> Don't use SE cable.
> Don't use Carlon boxes.
> ...


Yea 1 thing
PVC BOXES AT GRADE = WIN


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

gold said:


> Yea 1 thing
> PVC BOXES AT GRADE = WIN



Just for the record here:

*I DIDN'T SAY IT!*

:laughing:


----------



## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

What?:blink: We can't say that? :blink: Thats not good?:blink:


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

gold said:


> What?:blink: We can't say that? :blink: Thats not good?:blink:



No, *I* can't say that. Bob says so.


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

480sparky said:


> OK, so let's see if I have what it takes to be a real electrician now:
> 
> Don't use SE cable.
> Don't use Carlon boxes.
> ...


Yes. a real Electrician only installs Rigid Metal Conduit.:laughing::laughing:


----------



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

InPhase277 said:


> Not to nitpick, but doesn't the wall to the left and shelving to the right of the panel intrude into the 30" clearance requirement?


 
The panel doesn't have to be centered in the 30" so the wall is fine.


----------



## crosport (Apr 4, 2010)

Nothing against se cable itself ,I'm just against the haywire way in which it is entered.Come on I thought the U.S. was part of the modern world.In Canada if we made any sort of connection waterproof by throwing in some dog ****- ooppps! I mean duct seal,it would be a automatic code violation.Do manufacturers not make a proper raintite s.e.connector.The picture looks like a 2" r.t. e.m.t. connector was used with like pound of duct seal.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> The panel doesn't have to be centered in the 30"


But there does have to be 30", the shelves look to be closer than 30" to the wall.










Not a big deal but I do think as it is pictured it is a 110.26 violation.


----------



## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

What about the neutrals?...He has some neutrals landed on the "grounding" bar...I thought they can't rely on a screw...200.2


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

BBQ said:


> But there does have to be 30", the shelves look to be closer than 30" to the wall.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Most resi tubs are 14½" wide, so that give you some sense of scale. Now, does the string hanging down from the pullchain violate 110.26 too?


----------



## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

NolaTigaBait said:


> What about the neutrals?...He has some neutrals landed on the "grounding" bar...I thought they can't rely on a screw...200.2




That panel appears to have a bar between them like a cutler hammer br.


----------



## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

BBQ said:


> Not a big deal but I do think as it is pictured it is a 110.26 violation.



What shelves? Dam homeowners putting stuff in my working space after I leave......


----------



## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

jwjrw said:


> That panel appears to have a bar between them like a cutler hammer br.


Yeah, I kinda looked at that. I can't remember...how is the bar attached to the neutral bar though?...I seem to remember that it is not one solid piece, but its connected through a screw.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Most resi tubs are 14½" wide,



No chit. 





> so that give you some sense of scale.


I was not lacking that.


----------



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

BBQ said:


> But there does have to be 30", the shelves look to be closer than 30" to the wall.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

I agree, I was just surprised he thought the wall was a violation


----------



## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

I see he taped the neutral of the SE again:laughing:


----------



## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

NolaTigaBait said:


> Yeah, I kinda looked at that. I can't remember...how is the bar attached to the neutral bar though?...I seem to remember that it is not one solid piece, but its connected through a screw.



If it is like a cutler hammer it does use a screw. The change made in 2008 code says the continuity of the neutral can not depend on the metal enclosure.


----------



## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

NolaTigaBait said:


> I see he taped the neutral of the SE again:laughing:


Can't let those fall electrons out. :laughing:


----------



## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

NolaTigaBait said:


> I see he taped the neutral of the SE again:laughing:


well that's your answer about the N's: that's a 3 wire feeder right?


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

BuzzKill said:


> well that's your answer about the N's: that's a 3 wire feeder right?


Not a feeder, service entrance conductors.


----------



## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

jwjrw said:


> If it is like a cutler hammer it does use a screw. The change made in 2008 code says the continuity of the neutral can not depend on the metal enclosure.


I hear ya. I read it as it can't depend on a connection TO metal enclosure, raceways etc...keyword to me is TO..which mean that the screw would be the connection to the other bar...I'm probably reading too much into it.


----------



## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

BBQ said:


> Not a feeder, service entrance conductors.


right,no disco outside...sorry!!!!


----------



## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

NolaTigaBait said:


> I hear ya. I read it as it can't depend on a connection TO metal enclosure, raceways etc...keyword to me is TO..which mean that the screw would be the connection to the other bar...I'm probably reading too much into it.


I think that since UL approved it it is allowed. I have ran a #4 from one bar to the other to get around the change.


----------



## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

mcclary's electrical said:


> I agree, I was just surprised he thought the wall was a violation


I didn't think the wall was a violation, just that obviously clearance can't be found on that side, leaving only the shelf side.

Also, those white wires on the two-pole breakers should be re-identified... I'm just sayin':laughing:


----------



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

InPhase277 said:


> I didn't think the wall was a violation, just that obviously clearance can't be found on that side, leaving only the shelf side.
> 
> Also, those white wires on the two-pole breakers should be re-identified... I'm just sayin':laughing:


 

That's why I was so surprised , I knew you know better. I agree the shelves are in violation. And I always reidentify with sharpie:thumbsup:


----------



## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> I agree the shelves are in violation. And I always reidentify with sharpie:thumbsup:


What do you write? "These are not shelves in the working space" :laughing:


----------



## frank (Feb 6, 2007)

How about fitting the load panel over the main incomer cable . Keeps it neat and tidy.Also containing the exposed cables in mini pvc tube would finish the job - including having the exposed T joint made off into an enclosure.Incoming cables would be better boxed in or enclosed from view too. Otherwise seems you know what you are doing.Good job.

Frank

ENGLISH SPARKIE,

Any comments about ways and means in the US and Canada


----------



## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

frank said:


> How about fitting the load panel over the main incomer cable . Keeps it neat and tidy.Also containing the exposed cables in mini pvc tube would finish the job - including having the exposed T joint made off into an enclosure.Incoming cables would be better boxed in or enclosed from view too. Otherwise seems you know what you are doing.Good job.
> 
> Frank
> 
> ...


It's not always possible to mount a panel directly over the incoming line.

Because of height restrictions etc. Also other criteria have to be observed.


I M O the finished job looked good.


----------



## dowmace (Jan 16, 2008)

I have never seen SE cable installed around here, I know that it's not legal in the city. Pipe only, rigid preferred. But then again I'm not resi man that crap changes to fast for me to catch it.


----------



## sparky=t (Jan 1, 2011)

nm cable exposed to physical damage?


----------



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

sparky=t said:


> nm cable exposed to physical damage?


 


You'd be hard presses to call that subject to physical damamge.


----------

