# GFCI protect the whole panel



## vinister (Apr 11, 2012)

My application requries that I GFCI protect a whole panel. 

I use Siemens panels, so I could just use GFCI breakers in every slot.

Or can I back-feed a GFCI breaker to use it as a main?

Use a hardwire GFCI solution such as those offered by Hubbell?

I need at least 8 breakers. Can anyone suggest some parts that they would choose for this job?

What are the unknowns that I might encounter with such a setup? Do air conditioners, for example, have a hard time with GFCIs? What about modern fluorescent ballasts?

Thanks,


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

You can't back feed GFCI breakers. How are you feeding this panel, how big will it be? Can you feed it from a GFCI breaker?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

There has to be more to it than what you are posting.

Assuming GFCI on a main set to the level of a typical residential GFCI you would most likely have tripping from the leakage currrent that is inherrent in long runs of conductors (all the branch circuits).

I assume there are specification and there should be a recommend setting, or if they are asking for all the branch circuits then you have to install seperate GFCI's for each branch circuit.

Or lastly are they asking for GFPE? Which would be simple to implement in a panel setting.


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## vinister (Apr 11, 2012)

No long runs, it's not resi. it's a small mobile building. The spec calls for 4ma trip, "whole system gfci protection" I clarified with end user and they basically don't want anything coming out that isn't gfci protected, they don't care how its accomplished. 

It will be fed from a group of inverters in series/parallel for around 9KW 120/240V. 

Ideally I would have a SE panel with a 50A GFCI 2 pole main. I know it doesn't exist... but there must be some solution.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Seimens does make a dp 50 and probably a 60 gfci breaker but you would be a fool to gfci protect the entire panel. If one thing has a problem then the whole panel goes down-- not what I would want. It is certainly cheaper to do the entire panel so throw that as an option.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

vinister said:


> No long runs, it's not resi. it's a small mobile building. The spec calls for 4ma trip, "whole system gfci protection" I clarified with end user and they basically don't want anything coming out that isn't gfci protected, they don't care how its accomplished.
> 
> It will be fed from a group of inverters in series/parallel for around 9KW 120/240V.
> 
> Ideally I would have a SE panel with a 50A GFCI 2 pole main. I know it doesn't exist... but there must be some solution.


Does not have to be long runs, it is the cumulative length, all will add the possibility of leakage current. I would opt for single branch circuit protection.


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

Use all GFCI breakers. I have panels like that. Stop over thinking.


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## vinister (Apr 11, 2012)

Dennis Alwon said:


> If one thing has a problem then the whole panel goes down-- not what I would want. It is certainly cheaper to do the entire panel so throw that as an option.


I think this might be what the customer wants. If there is any kind of a short to ground in this small, wet, building, they want everything to just shut off, not only the problem circuit. They want to stop work until the problem is fixed. 

Individual GFCI's adds up fast, and it seems like you're multiplying your chances of having a problem.

How about the air conditioner question? Is it common for motor loads to nuisance trip GFCI's?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

What type of wiring system will be in place for the branch circuits? A wet building increases the chances of leakage current trips. Not trying to beat a dead horse but based on expierence.

How many branch circuits do you think there might be?


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## jeepman (Jan 2, 2013)

vinister said:


> I think this might be what the customer wants. If there is any kind of a short to ground in this small, wet, building, they want everything to just shut off, not only the problem circuit. They want to stop work until the problem is fixed.
> 
> Individual GFCI's adds up fast, and it seems like you're multiplying your chances of having a problem.
> 
> How about the air conditioner question? Is it common for motor loads to nuisance trip GFCI's?


Yea a motor will trip a GFCI. Example is why fridges and AC systems in homes are not GFCI protected


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

jeepman said:


> Yea a motor will trip a GFCI. Example is why fridges and AC systems in homes are not GFCI protected


 A motor with leakage current will trip a GFCI. A properly working motor will not trip a GFCI. 

In order to get their UL listing they have to operate heavy inductive loads without tripping. It also explains how they run temp power on every construction site without constantly tripping on drills and saws.


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## vinister (Apr 11, 2012)

heh, two opposite answers. 

thanks for the inputs!


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

vinister said:


> heh, two opposite answers.
> 
> thanks for the inputs!


Only one correct answer. As John noted a motor that is properly operating should not result in a operation of the GFCI


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

vinister said:


> No long runs, it's not resi. it's a small mobile building. The spec calls for 4ma trip, "whole system gfci protection" I clarified with end user and they basically don't want anything coming out that isn't gfci protected, they don't care how its accomplished.
> 
> It will be fed from a group of inverters in series/parallel for around 9KW 120/240V.
> 
> Ideally I would have a SE panel with a 50A GFCI 2 pole main. I know it doesn't exist... but there must be some solution.


Would 'coming out' be inclusive of the feeder Vin?

~CS~


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

I ask why you would want the a/c or heat to trip also. I agree with the others that say and properly functioning motor should not trip the gfci.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

I can to some past pool sub-panels being fed via larger 2 pole GFCI's here....

~CS~


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## vinister (Apr 11, 2012)

The feeder won't be 'coming out' as the inverters are installed in the same compartment as the panel. They don't want any electrical coming out of that compartment that is not gfci protected.


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

Then put GFCI breakers on each circuit.....


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

vinister said:


> heh, two opposite answers.
> 
> thanks for the inputs!


Yeah but one is BS and one isn't. 


Based on what you have told us I would use individual GFCI breakers.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

vinister said:


> No long runs, it's not resi. it's a small mobile building. The spec calls for 4ma trip, "whole system gfci protection" I clarified with end user and they basically don't want anything coming out that isn't gfci protected, they don't care how its accomplished.
> 
> It will be fed from a group of inverters in series/parallel for around 9KW 120/240V.
> 
> Ideally I would have a SE panel with a 50A GFCI 2 pole main. I know it doesn't exist... but there must be some solution.


Please do not do that, your customer will hate you for it very quickly.

Use individual GFCIs for each circuit.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

vinister said:


> It will be fed from a group of inverters in series/parallel for around 9KW 120/240V.


The above could actually be a good reason for GFCI protection of all circuits.

The inverters could be incapable of delivering enough current to open a standard breaker quickly during a ground fault.


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

vinister said:


> I think this might be what the customer wants. If there is any kind of a short to ground in this small, wet, building, they want everything to just shut off, not only the problem circuit. They want to stop work until the problem is fixed.


that is a really great idea. i hope the install goes well for you!:whistling2:


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## vinister (Apr 11, 2012)

ponyboy said:


> that is a really great idea. i hope the install goes well for you!:whistling2:


Relax... its just a tender submission. I still have time to tell the customer what they really want, after I win. :thumbup:

Thanks everyone for the info and opinions

:thumbsup:


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

if you really had to protect the whole panel couldn't you use some sort of shunt trip operating off a relay/ground fault monitoring system. just pulling stuff out my ass right now


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## vinister (Apr 11, 2012)

Yep Hubbell has that system. Pretty much the same thing though... the kit they offer is installed on Gensets and protects the whole output. 

Its about $150 in parts for a 50A.


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## hydro (Aug 21, 2009)

Would it be to simple to have a 2 pole panel with a gfci breaker feeding the main panel? Similar to a hot tub installation


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

I do that with pools using a 60 amp DP GFCI, a lower cost option but a PIA to some when a problem arises. Easy to troubleshoot to qualified electricians.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

vinister said:


> Yep Hubbell has that system. Pretty much the same thing though... the kit they offer is installed on Gensets and protects the whole output.
> 
> Its about $150 in parts for a 50A.


A GFCI or GFPE?


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## bennysecond (Jan 18, 2013)

Exactly like John says. 

If they want one on main: Do GFPE and GFCI on runs they need. 
Then you have no problems with tripping all the time.:thumbsup:


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

That'd be almost like the Euro step grade differential installs....~CS~


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

chicken steve said:


> That'd be almost like the Euro step grade differential installs....~CS~


Pretty much correct on that answer.

Merci,
Marc


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