# What do you feel are the pros and cons of joining the union?



## The_Modifier (Oct 24, 2009)

IBTL! :vs_laugh::vs_laugh::vs_laugh:


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## ksanders (Sep 7, 2018)

I have almost two decades with IBEW 1547 working at local utilities under regular employee contracts.

I also have considerable time as management at the same utilities, and now run my own bussiness.

I can say that working as a IBEW journeyman provided the best benefits package I have ever seen. In a very short time the IBEW will start paying me a few thousand dollars a month at age 58. It is REALLY difficult to save that kind of money in a 401-k plan. My IBEW pension cost me ZERO out of pocket dollars.

I highly recommend union work because it provides for your future in a way that you cannot replicate in the non union enviroment


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## Woot (Apr 15, 2018)

Here in philly it can be very difficult to become a member at alot of trade unions. Its not a simple choice...


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

I believe that benefit package is part of your compensation. Its very nice to have great healthcare and a nice retirement and make more than than the non-union guys here.
Also, as a contractor, I pay between 5k and 10k per month in benefits depending on the number of electricians we have, and know that the non-union contractors charge the same as we do and put that money in their pockets.

So all of you guys that work non-union and think you are paid the same as the union guys, take a nice look at the truck, boat and vacation you bought your boss with your retirement money.


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## Dan the electricman (Jan 2, 2011)

I've worked both union, and non.

The pay and benefits with the union are waayy better than non-union. The only thing I liked better about non-union is I got to work by myself a lot more. I liked that challenge.


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

Pro... Great training, pay and benefits.
Con...Union telling you to vote for Hillary, socialists and gun grabbers.


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

Depends if you are doing contracting type work. 

Look at the divorce rate and it shows that money and benefits doesn't mean everything especially after the x takes half of the pension fund, etc. 

Once you get in the E&I field the difference in pay is smaller and plant guys get to go home every night. 

20 years ago before wife and kids i would have gone union working on large contacts away from home earning huge amounts of money.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

Southeast Power said:


> I believe that benefit package is part of your compensation. Its very nice to have great healthcare and a nice retirement and make more than than the non-union guys here.
> Also, as a contractor, I pay between 5k and 10k per month in benefits depending on the number of electricians we have, and know that the non-union contractors charge the same as we do and put that money in their pockets.
> 
> So all of you guys that work non-union and think you are paid the same as the union guys, take a nice look at the truck, boat and vacation you bought your boss with your retirement money.


...that is the truth more often than not. I’d like to see all of us make decent money and bennies, but some guys either just hate the trade unions, or quite honestly, can’t get in for whatever reason. We all have families to feed and care for.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

For a young guy coming into the trade, I highly recommend applying at the local union.
@ksanders Thanks. What you said in a paragraph pretty much sums it up.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

I cant say enough about the benefits. Its really a deal maker.
I suspect the MEP trades to be very, very good for the guys coming up. No reason not to have a collective voice in the market.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

360max said:


> or quite honestly, can’t get in for whatever reason. We all have families to feed and care for.


Then why don't they let more people in?


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Southeast Power said:


> Also, as a contractor, I pay between 5k and 10k per month in benefits depending on the number of electricians we have, and know that the non-union contractors charge the same as we do and put that money in their pockets.


Now then. I am not saying that hasn't been your experience in your segment of the market, but we all know that's not true in general. 

If it was true, then the unions are very, very culpable for not doing much more for labor - not growing and in fact shrinking over the years. If you have the best labor and competitive prices and pay superior wages and benefits, it would be very, very easy to organize every qualified electrician in the country, and it would be real real easy for a non-drunk non-moron to get in the union. 

The reason it's hard to get into the union isn't they want to be selective, it's they have to be selective because they can only win a small part of the market.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Union benefits are top notch

While working if you leave a company for any reason. by your choice, laid off or fired at your next job you will not have to negotiate for wages they will be the same or more if you get overscale.

You get regular pay raises whether you deserve them or not.

Retirement that is hard beat, a close friend recently retired recently retired and between his SS, IBEW retirement, (local, international and annuity) and his wife's SS, he is making close to what he was making as a foreman with the IBEW.

Healthcare/insurance that while everyone bitches about it are from my experience 1st class.

Training from apprenticeship through continuing education for electricians that is generally decent.

For contractors having a labor pool to draw from

Drawbacks - 

You get regular pay raises whether you deserve them or not, slackers are fairly common on large jobs.

SOME Union members do little to advance the union with open shop workers, using derogatory terms for open shop workers to their face, messing with open shop workers and their installs.

SOME Locals do little to grow when they should be encouraging open shop members to join and thereby putting a hurting on open shops that could by having a lack of workers get them to sign with the IBEW.

I also think the market does better when there is a good mix of open shop and union.

From an owners standpoint-

The two advantages are a labor pool that you can draw from.
Knowing your employees are well compensated and have decent benefits

But - My friends that have open shops make substantially more than I do.
So from a owners standpoint, there are like most things plusses and minuses.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

splatz said:


> The reason it's hard to get into the union isn't they want to be selective, it's they have to be selective because they can only win a small part of the market.



Our local has taken a different approach and has become very open to bringing in apprentices and open shop electricians and membership has swelled. BUT also remember even in the bad times we have had work when other areas are suffering.

The arrogance among SOME members is astounding as to how they treat open shopmen that are organized in, but even that is improving. It appears the more arrogant the member the bigger slacker he/she is.


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

splatz said:


> Now then. I am not saying that hasn't been your experience in your segment of the market, but we all know that's not true in general.
> 
> If it was true, then the unions are very, very culpable for not doing much more for labor - not growing and in fact shrinking over the years. If you have the best labor and competitive prices and pay superior wages and benefits, it would be very, very easy to organize every qualified electrician in the country, and it would be real real easy for a non-drunk non-moron to get in the union.
> 
> The reason it's hard to get into the union isn't they want to be selective, it's they have to be selective because they can only win a small part of the market.


In my experience the leadership of the locals can be very short sighted. They also don't appreciate it when the rank and file have better ideas than they do.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

splatz said:


> Now then. I am not saying that hasn't been your experience in your segment of the market, but we all know that's not true in general.
> 
> If it was true, then the unions are very, very culpable for not doing much more for labor - not growing and in fact shrinking over the years. If you have the best labor and competitive prices and pay superior wages and benefits, it would be very, very easy to organize every qualified electrician in the country, and it would be real real easy for a non-drunk non-moron to get in the union.
> 
> The reason it's hard to get into the union isn't they want to be selective, it's they have to be selective because they can only win a small part of the market.


The business of running a local is a balancing act. What good would it be to bring everyone in if the work isn't there. 
It's very hard to have contractors understand how to use the hall and have foremen run their jobs.
I would never be able to put an ad on Craigslist and be comfortable bringing on a stranger. I can make a phone call and get the manpower I need even if off of book 2 they are vetted and have a history and an address.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

TGGT said:


> In my experience the leadership of the locals can be very short sighted. They also don't appreciate it when the rank and file have better ideas than they do.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


Go to the meetings, get up an voice your concerns.
Sometimes they don't know there is a problem. Sometimes they need to be voted out.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

I think there are a lot of pro's in the union, in fact, some of them post here regularly (like the guys ^ up above).

However, there are also a lot of cons. I think I must have worked with more of the cons than I did with the pros, hence my 'tude.

nuff said :biggrin:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

wildleg said:


> I think there are a lot of pro's in the union, in fact, some of them post here regularly (like the guys ^ up above).
> 
> However, there are also a lot of cons. I think I must have worked with more of the cons than I did with the pros, hence my 'tude.
> 
> nuff said :biggrin:


I had an attitude about unions for a quite a few years before and after I joined, But I knew no matter the butt heads you have to deal with the salary and bennies were worth the crap.


I tried on and off for 7 years to get in the union, finally joined as a Residential, I had more licenses than everyone (5 masters 2 JWs) I worked with and caught crap from "A" men had a few walk off the job I was running saying they would not take orders from an "R" worker. I was told I was still a scab, had the President of the Local refuse to shake my hand then he was reminded "R" workers voted for officers he returned and want to shake my hand I refused. 

On large mostly all "A" I did the electrical testing making less money and having a few men constantly screwing with me, several called the hall complaining I was getting the easy work. Finally, there was a meeting and the one question the super asked was can the complainers do testing work and their answer was with training and schooling they could e response was well we need someone now. Within a month I was brought to the hall and given a test that gave made me an Inside Wireman, for several years I still caught crap from members because I came in through the back door and did not know what they did.


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## stiffneck (Nov 8, 2015)

The elephant in the room is "Nepotism". This is 2018, did you all get rid of the elephant? Would you like some recent examples? My own personnel experiences?

I started work for the cit-ay of Saint Louis, Missouri, as Electrician, back in August of 1994. That September I joined Local-1 and was issued a skillLESS, letterLESS general maintenance card we dubbed "janitorial card". Paid dues for the next 7-years. Not once did anyone mention what the International was, how to contact, or a copy of "bylaws", or anything else. We we're kept in the dark and feed a bunch of BS. The shop stewards were hand picked by management. The BA would meet with the supervisor, not us. No monthly meetings for us, not allowed in "A" card meetings. The last year I went down to hall, most people refused to talk to me and the others had a memorized response; "The BA is not available at this time". Finally, ending in Summer of 2001, with us chasing the rat BA out of a hearing room at the Convention Office Building down town. For a 50+ guy he went down those steps fast. Choose not to wait for elevator. I realize now what we should have done, was to continue to pay dues and hire a lawyer to go after local-1. Live and learn, the hard way. 

Then there's "Henry's boy" local-1. So who is "Henry" ? Henry was the previous, previous supervisor of my airport electric shop. What the "Henry" did was to incite a toxic work environment to reduce productivity by various methods. Drive employees out, reduced overtime, not hire replacements. This lead to lucrative contracts to do our maintenance/service work by select local-1 contractors. Pay offs are impossible to prove, unless someone squeals or a hidden audio/video appears. Neither was needed. What the BA (and others down at local-1) did was to make arrangements not once, or twice, but rather three different times for Henry's son to get into the local-1 apprenticeship and everyone knows it. "Henry's boy" washed out all three times LOL. The boy is a typical shizt head, high school drop out, susp./revk. driver license and juvenile record. The years where 2011-2014. A time when many others tried, but where never allowed to test/interview. Henry is gone now and the boy works at street lighting.


Now for the "Czech" man local-2. The year was 2013 during the month of October. Three of us where working (and minding our own business) in the Lindbergh tunnel (US-67 going under Lambert-St. Louis Airport). I noticed in rear view mirror someone speaking to other employee as I moved basket/bucket truck forward. Stop, walked back, other employee said, "can't understand a word this guy said". Not too concerned because said person had PPE, which indicated he wasn't a pedestrian or a bum. So I walked back and out of tunnel. That's when this local-2 guy complained about us not using the outriggers for our basket/bucket truck. At this point I said, "that truck doesn't have outriggers, if it did, they would be down". At this point you could have heard a sharpie drop on a US highway going under an Airport. After all, who da thunked it, a basket/bucket truck without "outriggers". So to save face with me, this local-2 guy throws the 1rst guy under the bus. "Yea, this guy is an apprentice and he's from Czechosloviakia". He is having to learn how to read, write and speak English and drive in the US then his CDL... At this point, I said "What are my people suppose to do for an Apprenticeship? Migrate to Australia? Colonize Antarctica? Contract with Space-X to go to the Moon? Don't tell me no-one is applying, I did myself years ago and the younger guys with me had done the same years later, with same results; "Whose your daddy?" Up to 3-million people live within 200 miles of this hall and you bring someone in from 9000 miles away, that's rich. The only thing this guy brought to the table is his sister (also from Czechosloviakia) is married to someone down at the hall.


Back in 1992, I had an opportunity to work for one of three local-1 contractors. However, I wasn't allowed to test, interview for an apprenticeship, or temporary work permit, or be put on a list or "book". Basically, who the fuxk are you? One of these contractors was called "Payne Electric" (PS). PS went on and took in what would be their last apprentice from local-1. This app. turned out to be a shizt head. He committed job belligerence, job incompetence, job tardiness and job theft. Now, he can't be fired, no no no. So PE sent him back. And you know what's coming next. PE then called local-1 and asked for a new app. Guess who they sent out, that's right. Local-1 sent the same shizt head back out. PE called and complained, local-1 said; "He's your problem... You figure it out..." Shizt head lasted a week before being sent back. A month later, local-1 calls PE and ask; "Don't you need one of our app.?" PE response was; "No, they are your problem... You figure it out..." and hung up the phone for the last time. From this point forward, PE now bid on smaller and smaller jobs. Got rid of other problem and good employees. Until just left with those from many years before. At this point, PE then sells the business to Crest Electric of Ohio. Today it's Payne Crest Electric of Overland, MO. Not Payne Electric of Hazelwood, MO. I went to work for a NON-IBEW electrical contractor. For those who say it's a choice, no it's not. This was the 2nd of 4 attempts at getting into an ibew apprenticeship.


Shall I continue... With ibew... I have more... How about Colluding with management against us. Sign them up and lay them off, as a tactic exposed by a local TV station. Having to be stopped from assembling a unit under Local-3 Elevator contract. Crossing a Machinist/Boeing picket line in 1998 and UAW/Chrysler picket line in late 1980's.


The need for representation has never gone away. What we need at my place of employment is representation against government and ibew. This includes issues of safety. I'll continue later, elsewhere on the forum.


Chris Hanson
Lead Electrician
Lambert-St. Louis Int. Airport


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

stiffneck said:


> The elephant in the room is "Nepotism". This is 2018, did you all get rid of the elephant? Would you like some recent examples? My own personnel experiences?
> 
> I started work for the cit-ay of Saint Louis, Missouri, as Electrician, back in August of 1994. That September I joined Local-1 and was issued a skillLESS, letterLESS general maintenance card we dubbed "janitorial card". Paid dues for the next 7-years. Not once did anyone mention what the International was, how to contact, or a copy of "bylaws", or anything else. We we're kept in the dark and feed a bunch of BS. The shop stewards were hand picked by management. The BA would meet with the supervisor, not us. No monthly meetings for us, not allowed in "A" card meetings. The last year I went down to hall, most people refused to talk to me and the others had a memorized response; "The BA is not available at this time". Finally, ending in Summer of 2001, with us chasing the rat BA out of a hearing room at the Convention Office Building down town. For a 50+ guy he went down those steps fast. Choose not to wait for elevator. I realize now what we should have done, was to continue to pay dues and hire a lawyer to go after local-1. Live and learn, the hard way.
> 
> ...



As a long term union member with a long standing family history with unions(even having family members as founders of a some locals years back), I know all those problems and many more existed and still thrive in some locals. 

That said, when you look at the larger picture overall, being a union member and having a collective bargaining agreement in general does more for the workforce than being non union and fending for yourself.

Union training, pay scale, and benefits are usually far superior to non union packages.


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

MechanicalDVR said:


> That said, when you look at the larger picture overall,
> 
> Union training,


Get the training (and the documented 8000hrs), get your state card & then you can go anywhere.


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## Lone Crapshooter (Nov 8, 2008)

Was intervied 5 times in the 70's my father was not a member so I could never join the country club. Talked to a organizer ( now they are called membership development corrdonator I guess that is more PC) after I came back from Texas and he told me I was over qualified to join the local.
After hearing IBEW members talk I would say them AND YOU ALL PAY FOR REPRESENTATION LIKE THAT .

LC


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## stiffneck (Nov 8, 2015)

Bird dog said:


> Get the training (and the documented 8000hrs), get your state card & then you can go anywhere.





What training are you referring to?
What state card (Missouri) are you referring to?


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

stiffneck said:


> What training are you referring to?
> What state card (Missouri) are you referring to?


IIRC 8,000hrs is the amount of hours in a four year apprenticeship. Some states may not have a state journeyman electrician card versus some states are really strict & require you to go through an apprenticeship and take a test.


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

Cricket said:


> View attachment 128920
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Pros
-Decent pay and benefits for those of us who work year round, but not much better for those many who don't. the average person will make more working union, a few will actually make more non-union.

-when you top out it's easy to work if you don't mind travelling or your a good worker and can put up with backwards crap.

-if you can find a good group of guys to work with you can actually choose your own crew and take jobs together. (if your young and union i recommend trying this(this also requires saving and being able to not have to work all the time though))

Cons
-can't work for the best contractor around if it is a non-union shop(was the case for me)(and yes it was only one contractor all the other non-union contractors sucked)

-going through the apprenticeship usually sucks, its a backward institution that most people just accept to suffer through. this contributes to the slug mindset that is rampant in the union and holding it back.

-you work with too many people with too much false confidence. i think the training is a joke, not that many non-union routes would be better but some non-union shops train there guys much better than the union does. this wouldn't be a sticking point for me if so many people didn't act like the apprenticeship program is great, it sucks, not that ABC or whatever else is better but that doesn't mean ours doesn't suck also it just sucks less. this wouldn't be on the con list but i think it indoctrinates the people going through the program to think that they should know everything, i hate working with people that are afraid to admit they don't know, it's dangerous with what we do and i think the false preaching around our apprenticeship being pretty much perfect is a large contributor.

-you work with some real bums


summation
for the average person union is the way to go in general, but non-union is better for some.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

splatz said:


> 360max said:
> 
> 
> > or quite honestly, can’t get in for whatever reason. We all have families to feed and care for.
> ...


I think they weigh available union work for their area with what size workforce they need to complete said work. Union would be a tough call if 50% of workforce was constantly laid off. JMHO


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

stiffneck said:


> The elephant in the room is "Nepotism". This is 2018, did you all get rid of the elephant? Would you like some recent examples? My own personnel experiences?
> 
> I started work for the cit-ay of Saint Louis, Missouri, as Electrician, back in August of 1994. That September I joined Local-1 and was issued a skillLESS, letterLESS general maintenance card we dubbed "janitorial card". Paid dues for the next 7-years. Not once did anyone mention what the International was, how to contact, or a copy of "bylaws", or anything else. We we're kept in the dark and feed a bunch of BS. The shop stewards were hand picked by management. The BA would meet with the supervisor, not us. No monthly meetings for us, not allowed in "A" card meetings. The last year I went down to hall, most people refused to talk to me and the others had a memorized response; "The BA is not available at this time". Finally, ending in Summer of 2001, with us chasing the rat BA out of a hearing room at the Convention Office Building down town. For a 50+ guy he went down those steps fast. Choose not to wait for elevator. I realize now what we should have done, was to continue to pay dues and hire a lawyer to go after local-1. Live and learn, the hard way.
> 
> ...


:yawn::sleep1:


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## farmantenna (Nov 22, 2012)

my employer went union a decade ago and at the time the union hourly wage was actually lower but my wage didn't change. We were union for 3 years and the employer owed the union thousands of dollars at end.

BUT READ THIS: Here in southeastern Massachusetts at the time in addition to union dues we had to pay 6% of our wage into a fund called the Market recovery fund. This fund was used to help union contractors bid competitively against non union contractors. So you could submit a competitive bid for a non prevailing wage job and then apply for financial help from the Fund. 6 Percent!

pro: retirement benefits and lower health insurance costs. wages not always higher depending where you live.
great schooling for apprentices that's unmatched and worth thousands of dollars

Cons: You are not always going to be working full time all year every year.
Its non merit pay scale is like a socialist county: everyone makes the same wage (except me at the time) so there is no incentive to excel to get paid more.


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## Unionpride277 (Oct 31, 2018)

I’ve worked both union and nonunion in ny, nj area .

Theirs really no debate about witch side is better for you and your family .

The question is if you can get into the union or have to wrk for non union contractors .

Now this is not true for all parts of the country but in the nj/ny area ,

The non union sector dosnt even come close in any aspect to the ibew .


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## bostonPedro (Nov 14, 2017)

Pros
Training, safety, pay and benefits ie the healthcare and retirements funds

Cons
Connected lazy turds and sh!t starters who bring others down, politics to a lesser degree and because so many people know each other or are family members you have to be careful calling someone a sack of crap even if they are one because it hurts their feelings


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## Unionpride277 (Oct 31, 2018)

splatz said:


> Southeast Power said:
> 
> 
> > Also, as a contractor, I pay between 5k and 10k per month in benefits depending on the number of electricians we have, and know that the non-union contractors charge the same as we do and put that money in their pockets.
> ...


In general I would say the union does have superior wages , and benies .

They only let in the amount of workers they can send to wrk so it depends on the Economy in that area .

In nj/ny the non union rate is 20-30ph

Union rate 47-52 pension,annuity,etc

The union gets thousands of applications but they only let in 15 apprentices each year .

If they let everyone in ,the union woudnt have enough jobs to send them out to .

Union contractors get underbid to
Non union contractors that don’t have to pay the high wages and benefits pacages the union does.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Unionpride277 said:


> In general I would say the union does have superior wages , and benies .
> 
> They only let in the amount of workers they can send to wrk so it depends on the Economy in that area .
> 
> ...


That is a stupid philosophy based on old market forces that kills the union If the union would recruit during good work times and strangle the open shops of labor they could corner the market on manpower. During downturns both open shops and union have layoffs. 

While you take in 15 apprentices we wrestle training with 240+. Pro-growth union in lieu of limiting the workforce and limiting the jobs you can take on, so open shops move in and take over, except in your area where rumor has it legs get broken.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Unionpride277 said:


> In general I would say the union does have superior wages , and benies .
> 
> They only let in the amount of workers they can send to wrk so it depends on the Economy in that area .
> 
> ...


That's exactly my point, this is why the union is shrinking. 

If you set yourself up so you can cherry pick a little of the very highest paying work, and just admit enough people to do that work, you're a small part of the market and inevitably you'll get smaller. You have to admit more people and take more of the work. The bigger you get, the better you can bargain. 

It's a hard problem but it's important ...


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## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

The only problem I see with big organizing campaigns during good times, is that it’s “easy come, easy go”. When work slows down, the guys that got handed tickets are the first to go back Non Union. That doesn’t really help in the end. 

Just my opinion.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

cabletie said:


> The only problem I see with big organizing campaigns during good times, is that it’s “easy come, easy go”. When work slows down, the guys that got handed tickets are the first to go back Non Union. That doesn’t really help in the end.
> 
> Just my opinion.


But if they're doing so much better, why would they leave? Serious question. Not to stir the pot, but is it because they're treated as second class members, and spend too much time not working at their much improved wage?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

splatz said:


> But if they're doing so much better, why would they leave? Serious question. Not to stir the pot, but *is it because they're treated as second class members, and spend too much time not working at their much improved wage?*


Nowadays it's hard to do that. There is a list that has to be followed. There are some ways around the list for members with connections to either the union or the contractors, but all the rest of the men go by the list and good workers will be retained by the contractors.


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## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

splatz said:


> But if they're doing so much better, why would they leave? Serious question. Not to stir the pot, but is it because they're treated as second class members, and spend too much time not working at their much improved wage?


That’s a real good question. There’s probably not a single answer. What you mentioned I’m sure plays a role. Sometimes it works against the IBEW in that the ones that should move on never will, and the good ones that you wish would stay take off. 

I know I look at this different because of NJs licensing laws. Where other states require apprenticeships, ours doesn’t. So if a guy goes through the halls apprenticeship, he’s more likely not going to leave because he’ll remember all the hoops he had to jump through. Whereas a guy that might not have done anything, but pass a test when times are good, will leave when work slows down. Ironically the second one may have paid “more than his fair share of dues”. 

I look at it like this. I took the long route. I went through the residential program. So yes I get a nick name of “residential re-tread”. But I’m in good company. Half our local goes that route. After all the BS I went through, I’m not throwing it away getting caught working non-union if times are bad. Another man who was given a ticket might say F it I’m outa here. 

Maybe that’s why our local makes everyone go through the whole program regardless if you have a license already?


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## Unionpride277 (Oct 31, 2018)

splatz said:


> cabletie said:
> 
> 
> > The only problem I see with big organizing campaigns during good times, is that it’s “easy come, easy go”. When work slows down, the guys that got handed tickets are the first to go back Non Union. That doesn’t really help in the end.
> ...


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Unionpride277 said:


> splatz said:
> 
> 
> > But if they're doing so much better, why would they leave? Serious question. Not to stir the pot, but is it because they're treated as second class members, and spend too much time not working at their much improved wage?[/QUOTE
> ...


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## Unionpride277 (Oct 31, 2018)

brian john said:


> Unionpride277 said:
> 
> 
> > splatz said:
> ...


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

Unionpride277 said:


> I agree your absolutely correct.
> The local I’m in does incourage small shops to get the smaller jobs ,
> And helps them do so in a few diff ways .
> 
> But I’m shure you can understand the struggles they may have doing so bidding against non union with the hudge wage difference in pay and benies .


thats a bs ignorant statement, i hear it often and i think anyone that thinks like that should have their card torn up.

we are supposed to be far superior, far better. we should be more productive, get paid more and the job still be cheaper.


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## Unionpride277 (Oct 31, 2018)

Wiresmith said:


> Unionpride277 said:
> 
> 
> > I agree your absolutely correct.
> ...


You get what you pay for .

Union contractors also have to pull 
A jman for every 3 apprentices .

A union jmans total package is 80ph.

A non union contractor does not have to put jman on the job he can load up the job with guys he pays 15 ph .

Of course non union contractors underbid union contractors . Bc their labor cost are significant lower .

I’m not a contractor but this makes sense to me and I hear it first hand from signature contractors that it’s hard to compeate at the bidding table .

Don’t think it’s ignorant just the facts .non union underbids signature contractors all the time . But you get what you pay for , the unions pitch is their jobs are safer, you’ll get a better install on time and more production .

I never heard the unions say their jobs are a lot cheaper ? 

Hint why ibew came up with code of excellence Bc the union contractors were getting underbid left and right .

So to the owners they say if you use union labor our jobs are safer , more professional, will be on time , and the quality of the job will be above the cheaper non unions wrk .


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## stiffneck (Nov 8, 2015)

Bird dog said:


> *IIRC 8,000hrs* is the amount of hours in a four year apprenticeship. Some states may not have a state journeyman electrician card versus some states are really strict & require you to go through an apprenticeship and take a test.



This shows state by state, not sure how up to date or accurate.
https://www.electricianschooledu.org/state-by-state-licensing-guide/
Currently Missouri has no state wide of anything...yet. Starting for 2019 a "State Contractor License" is to be issued. What does "IIRC" stand for?


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## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

> Union contractors also have to pull
> A jman for every 3 apprentices


Not sure what that means? Our local, like most, has a ratio of three journeymen to one apprentice. I don’t think they ever have enough apprentices to fulfill the ratio. It’s not really a problem. Some contractors would rather have a higher ratio and have more journeymen. 

NJ has a ratio that’s not enforced. After ten electricians, one of them has to have a state JW card or contractors license. You’d never find one with a state JW card because they are not used. 


IIRC = If I remember correctly


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

cabletie said:


> Not sure what that means? Our local, like most, has a ratio of three journeymen to one apprentice. I don’t think they ever have enough apprentices to fulfill the ratio. It’s not really a problem. Some contractors would rather have a higher ratio and have more journeymen.
> 
> NJ has a ratio that’s not enforced. After ten electricians, one of them has to have a JW card or contractors license. You’d never find one with a JW card because they are not used.
> 
> ...


We can have up to 5 "lesser classifications" ce/cw/apprentices per 1 JIW. It's pretty terrible.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

Wiresmith said:


> thats a bs ignorant statement, i hear it often and i think anyone that thinks like that should have their card torn up.
> 
> we are supposed to be far superior, far better. we should be more productive, get paid more and the job still be cheaper.



I don’t think it’s totally a BS statement. It’s just a matter of economics. Contractors in business know from experience what jobs their successful at getting, completing, and profiting from. They have high rise residential projects here that you can’t get a Union contractor to bid. It’s a shame. It’s trunk slamming on a larger scale. 

Maybe someone from NY can confirm, but I heard the mega complex “Hudson yards” is mostly non-Union. The billionaire developers have their own EC. I wouldn’t be surprised if the Unions didn’t help getting it passed. 

“Hudson Yards is the largest private real estate development in the United States, spanning 28 acres and accommodating upward of 18 million square feet of office, retail, and residential space.”


https://ny.curbed.com/2018/9/19/17861164/hudson-yards-new-york-development-related-companies


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## Unionpride277 (Oct 31, 2018)

Wiresmith said:


> Unionpride277 said:
> 
> 
> > I agree your absolutely correct.
> ...


Meaning in ny/nj it’s common knowledge that non union contractors underbid union contractors for very obvious reasons.


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## Unionpride277 (Oct 31, 2018)

cabletie said:


> Wiresmith said:
> 
> 
> > thats a bs ignorant statement, i hear it often and i think anyone that thinks like that should have their card torn up.
> ...


I agree the unions never have claimed their labor is cheaper Bc its not ,lol 

They say you get what you pay for .
If you go union yoour job will be safer , more productive, better quality, be on time .

But union jobs are obviously going to cost more .

That’s why they never claim to be cheaper .

That’s why non union underbids Bc their labor cost are so much less .


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

cabletie said:


> I don’t think it’s totally a BS statement. It’s just a matter of economics. Contractors in business know from experience what jobs their successful at getting, completing, and profiting from. They have high rise residential projects here that you can’t get a Union contractor to bid. It’s a shame. It’s trunk slamming on a larger scale.
> 
> Maybe someone from NY can confirm, but I heard the mega complex “Hudson yards” is mostly non-Union. The billionaire developers have their own EC. I wouldn’t be surprised if the Unions didn’t help getting it passed.
> 
> ...


the statement below is what i am saying is an ignorant statement.





Unionpride277 said:


> I agree your absolutely correct.
> The local I’m in does incourage small shops to get the smaller jobs ,
> And helps them do so in a few diff ways .
> 
> But I’m shure you can understand the struggles they may have doing so bidding against non union with the hudge wage difference in pay and benies .


i believe it is ignorant because the basis is that we can't get the work because our wages are more. we are supposed to be more productive. many good union contractors with good union workers can beat non-union contractors on bids while paying more, every day of the week. their guys are more productive per dollar of wage and benefit, and that's how all union members should be.

with that ignorant mindset the union will not last, non union contractors are getting bigger and bigger and most customers don't care about safety, their insurance companies do and non-union has good ways of hiding safety violations, so throw that foothold out the window. most customers also don't care or are oblivious about what i would consider quality(a lot more than the lights just staying on). 

i don't mean union jobs cost less, but they can and when people are on their toes they do, its not a urban legend that a union contractor can underbid non-union, it happens. the union side of that equation just has to be competent.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

I just don't see the safety thing as being what most of you think it is these days, on larger jobs. Large projects, government funded or not, are highly dictated by the GC. Around here the GC's are quite strict with the safety protocols. 

I have been on a large number of Union jobs when I was organized and a large number of PW jobs after I left. I was not any safer in the union than when I was not, in fact I may have been safer outside of it. 

I worked for both Bergelectric and Helix Electric here in Cali. The eyes of scrutiny were upon us all the time as a non-union contractor working on PW jobs. Safety was always the number one priority on the projects I worked on. I saw union plumbers, pipe fitters, tin knockers, etc. doing things we could not do, as both companies felt them unsafe.

I do agree that generally the union should be a more efficient workforce because of better training. Thereby they should be more efficient and more productive, speeding up the project. Through that they should have a competitive advantage. That advantage can level the playing field on more complicated projects that call for those skills. 

However, the skills necessary for most of the workings in our buildings today is diminishing. You can have a smaller number of very skilled and productive guys that just set gear, bend large conduit, terminate HV cables, etc. 

The rest can now just be MC-Cable monkeys, slinging it around left and right with 3/4" and 1" EMT. You can teach just about any Resi guy to do that in a short short time, and many around here already know how to bend the smaller pipes.

Add in technology such as BIM and all the prefabbed work that can be done in a shop.... Now you need even less skill onsite, just a bunch of guys doing tinker toy installations. Not saying it isn't still difficult and that skill isn't still needed. But they are quickly progressing and fine tuning the method. They will get it down and then the need for highly skilled becomes less of an issue, you can get by with skilled. 

So a long rant... What for? Because the writing is on the wall, if the Union doesn't go after the underserved service and repair, residential, and manufacturing market segments, they will be in for even more of a world of hurt as time moves on. 

That would and will be bad for both union and open shops.


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## Unionpride277 (Oct 31, 2018)

Wiresmith said:


> cabletie said:
> 
> 
> > I don’t think it’s totally a BS statement. It’s just a matter of economics. Contractors in business know from experience what jobs their successful at getting, completing, and profiting from. They have high rise residential projects here that you can’t get a Union contractor to bid. It’s a shame. It’s trunk slamming on a larger scale.
> ...


Ok yes that’s make sense how you put it.


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## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

> i believe it is ignorant because the basis is that we can't get the work because our wages are more


That is certainly my employers belief. 



> many good union contractors with good union workers can beat non-union contractors on bids while paying more, every day of the week. their guys are more productive per dollar of wage and benefit, and that's how all union members should be.


My employer and management does everything imaginable to be the most productive. And many times that as well as a great safety record, great reputation from project managers to JIW, and overall great value will get the jobs. But it is near impossible when the competition is at least 30% cheaper. Most of that 30% is because their labor is 50% cheaper. 

It’s mixed feelings on private vs public jobs. At least private jobs they can really get out there and sell themselves. Public jobs, although tipped in their favor, is just lowest bid. So you still get lumped up by non-union. I’d have to ask, but I think our package is higher than the prevailing wage. And contractors cheat the laws. 

In the end, many of the day to day tasks can easily be done by cheap labor. That cheap labor the Unions will never be able to compete with. Big John Henry beat the steam driver, but died the next day.


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## Unionpride277 (Oct 31, 2018)

Switched said:


> I just don't see the safety thing as being what most of you think it is these days, on larger jobs. Large projects, government funded or not, are highly dictated by the GC. Around here the GC's are quite strict with the safety protocols.
> 
> I have been on a large number of Union jobs when I was organized and a large number of PW jobs after I left. I was not any safer in the union than when I was not, in fact I may have been safer outside of it.
> 
> ...


Everything you said sounds right on point .


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## Unionpride277 (Oct 31, 2018)

cabletie said:


> > i believe it is ignorant because the basis is that we can't get the work because our wages are more
> 
> 
> That is certainly my employers belief.
> ...


Sad but true my friend


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

cabletie said:


> That is certainly my employers belief.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


just for me to clarify my statement, i believe i'm not clearly communicating my intent and meaning with my statement.

i know in many situations in the real world, probably much more often than not, the non union will underbid union, i'm not arguing that, if i'm not communicating that right i apologize. and i see how people can mark that up to the wages. the point of my statement is not to argue against that part about non-union wins the bids because they cost less, i agree.

those day to day tasks i believe you're referring to, i often do more than twice as fast as most other people(union) i work around and if more people around me worked more productively and efficiently i would do them even faster, there goes the 50% wage difference right there. now lets get into the more skilled tasks, i don't see any argument of why union shouldn't be twice as fast on skilled tasks. projects should also be managed better(by the union members, foreman and contractor) than non-union and that makes a huge difference.

to put what i'm trying to say another way. i believe strictly blaming being beat by non-union strictly because of wage difference, is ignorant. we can beat them on job cost and get paid more, it's not done as often as the other but it is and can be done.


i don't mean that higher wages are not a large factor in a lot of the work we loose, i agree you could look at it that way.

i just mean it's wrong to think it can't be done because we make more.


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## Unionpride277 (Oct 31, 2018)

Wiresmith said:


> cabletie said:
> 
> 
> > That is certainly my employers belief.
> ...


 After thinking about what you wrote 
Seems like your right on .

Always good to see other ppls point of view thanks brother


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

Unionpride277 said:


> After thinking about what you wrote
> Seems like your right on .
> 
> Always good to see other ppls point of view thanks brother


thanks for keeping an open mind


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## Unionpride277 (Oct 31, 2018)

Wiresmith said:


> Unionpride277 said:
> 
> 
> > After thinking about what you wrote
> ...


I love unions and the ibew I want them to succeed and push forward ,
So one day my kids and grandchildren will be able to benefit from the Union aswell 


And the attitude that I had was not beneficial towards this cause.

What you said made a lot of sense


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## stiffneck (Nov 8, 2015)

Wiresmith said:


> the statement below is what i am saying is an ignorant statement.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Have any examples how "non-union has good ways of hiding safety violations..." ?
Would you like some Local-1 safety examples here at the Airport? Just the ones that where reported to OSHA. Such as "Electrocution" and "Arc Flashed" type, will skip the small day to day stuff.


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

stiffneck said:


> Have any examples how "non-union has good ways of hiding safety violations..." ?
> Would you like some Local-1 safety examples here at the Airport? Just the ones that where reported to OSHA. Such as "Electrocution" and "Arc Flashed" type, will skip the small day to day stuff.


if you read all of what i said, i was just saying that union can't rely on getting jobs just because of safety records.

example; people often fear losing their jobs more, so are more likely not to report them.

i'm not sure what your intent behind your question is but i'm not one to say union is safer then non-union if that's how you took my statement, i think it matters more on the contractor by contractor basis (union and non-union alike)


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## stiffneck (Nov 8, 2015)

Wiresmith said:


> if you read all of what i said, i was just saying that union can't rely on getting jobs just because of safety records.
> 
> example; people often fear losing their jobs more, so are more likely not to report them.
> 
> i'm not sure what your intent behind your question is but i'm not one to say union is safer then non-union if that's how you took my statement, i think it matters more on the contractor by contractor basis (union and non-union alike)



That's exactly how I took your statement. I do read everything and I misunderstood your satire on this one; "throw the football out the window". My intent is fact based on my experiences. However, those experiences are just a grain of sand on a beach. But they are experiences not to be discounted either. I get tired of the same old how bad everybody else is and how great you people are. There are _some_ examples to the contrary. Your statement was profound with "...non-unions have good ways of hiding safety violations..." and I asked for examples. Here, non-union don't even have to step out of the truck and osha has already been called(not sure by who). Plus, your people have called and complain that us (Airport Electricians) doing allegedly your work at the Airport :001_huh: what are we, dog food or something  The latest incident was handle satisfactory by your higher-ups and that's a good thing.


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

stiffneck said:


> I get tired of the same old how bad everybody else is and how great you people are.


ask some of the union trumpeters on here, i also get tired of us saying how much better we are, and i argue with my(union)guys on here that we aren't. i don't believe we are better, but actually in some cases worse because of just that false preaching to a large degree, they really pound that in to the apprentices heads.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Wiresmith said:


> ask some of the union trumpeters on here, i also get tired of us saying how much better we are, and i argue with my(union)guys on here that we aren't. i don't believe we are better, but actually in some cases worse because of just that false preaching to a large degree, they really pound that in to the apprentices heads.


You can always tell the guys who just joined a union. Normally they learn to quiet down with the propaganda pretty quickly, but this latest one won't won't shut the hell up.


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## stiffneck (Nov 8, 2015)

Okay, I'm sure some of you seasoned ones can tell just how bitter I am. I know today I can go anywhere but it's too late. Age plus Arthritis has the final say now. If you walked a mile in my shoes from the 1980's thru 2000's you might understand. I will not accept "2nd class" status with out ever being tested. I've got it reasonable good where I'm at, provided it last long enough for me to cross the finish line. For more modern times, there has been an "attitude shift" here "locally", while other battles continue.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Stiffneck, I wasn’t speaking about you.


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## stiffneck (Nov 8, 2015)

I know


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