# Little wonder why they couldn't turn anything off........



## just the cowboy

*Something is still not right*



480sparky said:


> ............ even if they shorted a circuit.
> 
> 
> Got a call to look at a house being converted to a rental. The owners' handyman wanted to turn off a circuit, but couldn't, even by shorting it out.
> 
> Given that this is a 120v service using 240v panels and both the 100a main and 50a in the sub are jumpered, each circuit is fed God knows HOW many times!
> 
> The four NMs entering the right and the two at the right on top are wired directly into 6 1P breakers in the main panel.
> 
> 
> Makes me wonder if a bolted fault would ever trip a breaker.


You have 200 amps of protection right now and 8 paths for current to go. If the current goes goes above 160 amps the 20 amp breakers will trip ( 8 paths divided into 160 amps= 20 per branch. after they trip the 50 amps will trip with 80 amps on each path. after 200 amps the 100 amp will trip. 

As for a bolted fault they should all trip.

BUT that don't answer why it did not trip the breakers that is wired up correctly ( 2 in one panel and 3 in the other).


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## 480sparky

just the cowboy said:


> You have 200 amps of protection right now and 8 paths for current to go. If the current goes goes above 160 amps the 20 amp breakers will trip ( 8 paths divided into 160 amps= 20 per branch. after they trip the 50 amps will trip with 80 amps on each path. after 200 amps the 100 amp will trip.
> 
> As for a bolted fault they should all trip.
> 
> BUT that don't answer why it did not trip the breakers that is wired up correctly ( 2 in one panel and 3 in the other).



Since there's only a handful of 'correct' circuits, it may well be the one that was shorted wasn't one of them.

FYI; A 20a breaker will not trip the instant it reaches 20.0000000001 amps. It may take hours for it to trip with a 25 or 30-amp load.


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## mitch65

The current on the neutral main could be 300A. You (they) are running one phase through parallel 100A and parallel 50A breakers. 100A on the neutral from the sub depending on how the ccts from panel main to sub are wired.... Handyman not so much...... Wow


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## Cow

So what happens now? Did you give them a quote for a complete rewire?


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## 480sparky

Cow said:


> So what happens now? Did you give them a quote for a complete rewire?


Heh heh. They wanted a price to 'ground' the panel in the basement, then they were gonna cover up the panel in the bathroom so the rental inspector wouldn't see it.

I told 'em the only way I'd touch it is to install an entire new service and update the house. To date, the new service is in (awaiting hookup by POCO), and I'm ready for the switchover.


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## isaacelectricllc

480sparky said:


> ............ even if they shorted a circuit. Got a call to look at a house being converted to a rental. The owners' handyman wanted to turn off a circuit, but couldn't, even by shorting it out. It took me a while to figure this one out since I had never seen such a cobbled-up cluster in my life. 120v service, 3 wires between w'head and meter. One is unmetered hot, one is metered hot and third is neutral. From there, it goes to a 100 panel (that's in the bathroom!), 8-space panel. The lugs of the main is jumpered so both busses are energized. Each breaker has a circuit landed on it.... two are the original K&T circuits and 6 are newer 14-2NM W/G. Also under the lugs of the 100a main is an old 2-wire 10NM (no ground) that feeds a panel in the basement. The hot of the 10-2 is jumpered so both busses are energized. Out of the panel in the basement, all 10 breakers have circuits hooked to them. Now, study the drawing above carefully, before I expound any further. Got it? I did that part of the drawing first simply for clarity. Now the fun begins. There's only two circuits that originate in the main panel, and 10 are fed from the basement panel. Yet....... all the breakers have a circuit. How? Simple! Six of the 14/2 NMs that come out of the main panel backfeed six breakers in the basement panel! Those 6 breakers are double-tapped to feed 6 more circuits! (Neutrals of the six 14/2s between the panels are not drawn). Given that this is a 120v service using 240v panels and both the 100a main and 50a in the sub are jumpered, each circuit is fed God knows HOW many times! I haven't taken a photo of the main panel, but here's the one in the basement: The four NMs entering the right and the two at the right on top are wired directly into 6 1P breakers in the main panel. Makes me wonder if a bolted fault would ever trip a breaker.



Is that a J and M house by chance? I looked at one about a month ago that they wanted me to ground. The basement panel looked identical and I never saw the bathroom panel. I gave them a ballpark price for a re wire that was high enough that I knew I wouldn't be back.


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## 480sparky

isaacelectricllc said:


> Is that a J and M house by chance? I looked at one about a month ago that they wanted me to ground. The basement panel looked identical and I never saw the bathroom panel. I gave them a ballpark price for a re wire that was high enough that I knew I wouldn't be back.


Yep. Probably the same. 

If that actually WAS the main panel, I'd have no issues grounding it, but I would have quickly realized it wasn't the main as shutting off the 50a breaker wouldn't have turned anything off. The only way to turn anything off is to turn off every breaker, including the 100 and 50. So a quick-n-easy job would end up as an update anyway.

I took one gander in the garage, and we decided to simply gut the wiring and put in the code minimum.


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## isaacelectricllc

480sparky said:


> Yep. Probably the same. If that actually WAS the main panel, I'd have no issues grounding it, but I would have quickly realized it wasn't the main as shutting off the 50a breaker wouldn't have turned anything off. The only way to turn anything off is to turn off every breaker, including the 100 and 50. So a quick-n-easy job would end up as an update anyway. I took one gander in the garage, and we decided to simply gut the wiring and put in the code minimum.


Was there a m12 flashlight on the ledge by the panel? I know I left it there. I called Kevin and told him to grab it next time he was there then to call me and we would meet up so he could give it to me.

The owner (Mike) ticked me off a couple years ago by asking me to try to bribe the inspector (Jeff) when he caught them doing a handyman remodel at the office without permits. They paid dearly for me to come in and finish it up. I have been jacking up the prices or have been "too busy" ever since. Sounds like it finally paid off and they got someone else, I will say that they pay quick, but that's all I can say good about them. There is nothing good about any of their properties.


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## 480sparky

Never noticed a flashlight, but if I had I would have assumed it was someone who's working there.

Wow... bribe an inspector? That sure takes some nads.


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## isaacelectricllc

480sparky said:


> Never noticed a flashlight, but if I had I would have assumed it was someone who's working there. Wow... bribe an inspector? That sure takes some nads.


When I was there figuring out what needed to be done, he reached into his pocket and pulled out a wad of cash. Then asked if I could take the inspector to lunch and see if I could get him to let some things slide.

The thing is, whoever did the wiring did a nice job. There wasn't much I had to do to get the final passed.


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## 480sparky

Well, there was plenty of EMT in the basement. But the kitchen is a redo per city remodel code. No attic work, thankfully.


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## isaacelectricllc

480sparky said:


> Well, there was plenty of EMT in the basement. But the kitchen is a redo per city remodel code. No attic work, thankfully.[/QUOTE
> 
> I was talking about the job where he tried to get me to get Jeff to look the other way. I told Jeff about it and he told me I could still buy lunch.
> 
> The job you're on does have plenty of emt in the basement. The kitchen has plenty of lamp cord in the lower cabinets too. I can assume they have it cleaned out by now. My price was based on the house and garage getting emptied so I could find the walls. Then it was going to be at least $5000. I didn't want to mess with it.


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## isaacelectricllc

480sparky said:


> Well, there was plenty of EMT in the basement. But the kitchen is a redo per city remodel code. No attic work, thankfully.


Another thing that puzzled me was why they jumpered the 50 amp breaker in the basement. It is/ was a main lug panel.


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## 480sparky

isaacelectricllc said:


> Another thing that puzzled me was why they jumpered the 50 amp breaker in the basement. It is/ was a main lug panel.



I'm still puzzled by the six 14/2s between the branch breakers in both panels. The 10/2 that's landed on the 50 would have fired the panel up. The NMs were redundant, unsafe and a total waste.

Well, not a total waste. I'm going to retask two of them to feed from the basement into the bathroom to heat up the two circuits up there. I was going to try to fish new NMs through when I got looking at the 14/2s and started to tone things out.

I'd really like to know what the previous owner's logic was in doing that. I can understand his making the white the hot and black ground (he had a small engine repair shop in the garage), but to intentionally create a buttload of backfeeds and parallels? :blink:


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## isaacelectricllc

480sparky said:


> I'm still puzzled by the six 14/2s between the branch breakers in both panels. The 10/2 that's landed on the 50 would have fired the panel up. The NMs were redundant, unsafe and a total waste. Well, not a total waste. I'm going to retask two of them to feed from the basement into the bathroom to heat up the two circuits up there. I was going to try to fish new NMs through when I got looking at the 14/2s and started to tone things out. I'd really like to know what the previous owner's logic was in doing that. I can understand his making the white the hot and black ground (he had a small engine repair shop in the garage), but to intentionally create a buttload of backfeeds and parallels? :blink:


I have no idea. I didn't even know about the other panel or the back feeds. Kevin called me to run a ground wire. When I went to take the cover off, I thought the panel was going to fall on the floor. Then I saw the jumper on the main. I told Kevin that he has a 120 service and that I wasn't going to mess with it without doing an update. 

I can see them getting tenants then getting a 240 range. Then I get the call to hook it up. 

Have you been going to the trailer park too? Tim told me you were going one day when I legitimately couldn't make it. I was too far away.
I haven't been back. He did ask me to give him a quote to straighten a leaning pole. I just sent a price without even looking at it. That price was high enough that last week their insurance company called and asked if I would do it for a lower price. I said sure, but I am tied up till December so it will have to wait till spring. I think they will just take the check and leave the pole anyway.


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## hornetd

480sparky said:


> I'm still puzzled by the six 14/2s between the branch breakers in both panels. The 10/2 that's landed on the 50 would have fired the panel up. The NMs were redundant, unsafe and a total waste.
> 
> Well, not a total waste. I'm going to retask two of them to feed from the basement into the bathroom to heat up the two circuits up there. I was going to try to fish new NMs through when I got looking at the 14/2s and started to tone things out.
> 
> I'd really like to know what the previous owner's logic was in doing that. I can understand his making the white the hot and black ground (he had a small engine repair shop in the garage), but to intentionally create a buttload of backfeeds and parallels? :blink:


It really is quite simple.  In the United Kingdom many of the residential circuits are "Ring Mains" Those are circuits that begin and end on different breakers. :001_huh: Individual outlets are either on the mains or on "Spur" cable with one end fed by the ring main and the individual receptacle outlet protected by a fuse at the outlet. So your installer must be a former UK electrician who is now retired but moonlighting in the US. :jester:

-- 
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous for general use." Thomas Alva Edison


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## 480sparky

hornetd said:


> It really is quite simple.  In the United Kingdom many of the residential circuits are "Ring Mains" Those are circuits that begin and end on different breakers. :001_huh: Individual outlets are either on the mains or on "Spur" cable with one end fed by the ring main and the individual receptacle outlet protected by a fuse at the outlet. So your installer must be a former UK electrician who is now retired but moonlighting in the US. :jester:..........


So you put each 'ring' and 'spur' on at least 8 different breakers?


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## gnuuser

hornetd said:


> It really is quite simple.  In the United Kingdom many of the residential circuits are "Ring Mains" Those are circuits that begin and end on different breakers. :001_huh: Individual outlets are either on the mains or on "Spur" cable with one end fed by the ring main and the individual receptacle outlet protected by a fuse at the outlet. So your installer must be a former UK electrician who is now retired but moonlighting in the US. :jester:
> 
> --
> Tom Horne
> 
> "This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous for general use." Thomas Alva Edison


actually a proper ring circuit makes a complete loop and it terminated at the same rcd that it originates from

a variation looks like a radial circuit but a ring is continious and spliced in the first junction box with a single conductor leading back to the rcd (called a lollipop circuit) legal but a bit harder to test properly

what you have is a mess of dual feeds and shutting a breaker would have no effect unless the coresponding mate was shut off as well
the only way to shut them off would be to turn off both mains or pull the meter
answer proper rewire is required


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## hornetd

gnuuser said:


> actually a proper ring circuit makes a complete loop and it terminated at the same rcd that it originates from
> 
> a variation looks like a radial circuit but a ring is continious and spliced in the first junction box with a single conductor leading back to the rcd (called a lollipop circuit) legal but a bit harder to test properly
> 
> what you have is a mess of dual feeds and shutting a breaker would have no effect unless the coresponding mate was shut off as well
> the only way to shut them off would be to turn off both mains or pull the meter
> answer proper rewire is required


I really did think that the emoticons would make it clear I was being facetious. I wasn't really casting aspersions on UK electricians. 

-- 
Tom


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## KD6DYR

Looks like it was wired by tweakers to me! I must admit though that the retired UK electrician theory is a new one I have never been to the UK. The only thing I know about the UK. electrical system is 220 volts 50 Hz.


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## gnuuser

hornetd said:


> I really did think that the emoticons would make it clear I was being facetious. I wasn't really casting aspersions on UK electricians.
> 
> --
> Tom


no problem!
although Im not a uk sparkie i do have a some knowledge of the uk electrical system
their testing and proving procedures are far more intense than ours here in the US
and their requirements for schooling in the electrical field are just as intense


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## hornetd

gnuuser said:


> no problem!
> although Im not a uk sparkie i do have a some knowledge of the uk electrical system
> their testing and proving procedures are far more intense than ours here in the US
> and their requirements for schooling in the electrical field are just as intense


Would that we could have such high standards of training and installation acceptance here in the USA. I have an impression that the standards in Canada are higher than those in the United States but that is only an impression. One thing that gave me that idea was that a Canadian contributor mentioned that the dead front over the Main Lugs in Canadian Service Enclosures are separate from the dead front over the branch circuit terminals. He also said that no branch circuit wiring was allowed beneath the main lug dead front. I would love to see similar practices here in the United States. No matter how much we moan and groan about Harriet & Harry Homeowner messing about in the electrical panel it doesn't look like that is going to stop anytime soon. We could have avoided two of the electrocutions that I attended in my Thirty Years of active service as an Emergency Medical Technician. In both of those cases; although one was an electrician; the death would have been avoided by having a dead front over the main lugs. 

-- 
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous for general use." Thomas Alva Edison


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## macmikeman

This is the real reason we don't have basements in Hawaii. Otherwise there would be panels wired like that.


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