# Opinions on Mike Holt video



## AllWIRES (Apr 10, 2014)

electricalwiz said:


> This is interesting I have always been taught that we can not run the cord into the drop ceiling https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Da5SMuqQJ_8&index=15&list=PLRNS1x1jcKbHR6mAChnrfOpmm8NGop6k_


Got a timeframe for what you're referring to?


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

The concept of the video is that a power supply cord and a power cord are not part of article 400. Art. 400 is about flexible cables and cords. A power cord is governed by UL817 while a flexible cord is governed by UL62. 

In mike holt's opinion you can run a cord to plug in equipment in a ceiling if it is not a plenum and it is a UL listed product for power cord. The wire from your computer to the wall is a power cord and the wire from your laptop to the walll is a power cord not flexible cord.


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

Dennis Alwon said:


> The concept of the video is that a power supply cord and a power cord are not part of article 400. Art. 400 is about flexible cables and cords. A power cord is governed by UL817 while a flexible cord is governed by UL62. In mike holt's opinion you can run a cord to plug in equipment in a ceiling if it is not a plenum and it is a UL listed product for power cord. The wire from your computer to the wall is a power cord and the wire from your laptop to the walll is a power cord not flexible cord.


 correct . I also believe the cord sets you can buy with the factory male cord caps qualify as a " power cord " also .


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Yes. I agree however I really am not sold on what Mike is saying. In fact even some members of his panel are not convinced. He seems to be stuck on the fact that UL62 is the only thing that is subject to art. 400. Well there is nothing in art. 400 that says this only pertains to UL 62 products. Not sure why he says it is a fact


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Actual he does have a point-- if you look at the UL standard for flexible cords and cables it is a different UL listing than power cords and sets. So if the title of the art is flexible cord and cables then I admit he is correct and art. 400 only applies to UL62 products. WOW


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Actual he does have a point-- if you look at the UL standard for flexible cords and cables it is a different UL listing than power cords and sets. So if the title of the art is flexible cord and cables then I admit he is correct and art. 400 only applies to UL62 products. WOW


. I remember having an issue years ago on a job where there were numerous condensate pumps installed above the suspended ceilings . The foreman wanted me to cut the factory male cord end off , mount a 4" square close to where the cord came out of the pump and hard wire the pump with a service switch , lol ? I said how about we ask the inspector what he thinks ? The inspector said install a 4" sq. with a single receptacle and I'm fine with that . The jackets on cord sets are not the same as flexible cord . This is what changes the UL listing . I'm sure it has to do with flammability and fumes ?


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## Mshow1323 (Jun 9, 2012)

http://www.electriciantalk.com/f10/hdmi-64380/
http://www.electriciantalk.com/f5/receptacles-above-grid-ceilings-65229/


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

Several years back I installed a receptacle above the ceiling grid for wireless equipment for comunication between the buildings for this hotel. Inspector passed it but was wanting to turn it down.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

aftershockews said:


> Several years back I installed a receptacle above the ceiling grid for wireless equipment for comunication between the buildings for this hotel. Inspector passed it but was wanting to turn it down.


Exactly-- the intent of this art. IMO would have been to turn it down however I don't believe that is the way it is written


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## inspector1 (May 12, 2011)

Dennis- I followed this discussion somewhat about article 400 in the last few months and have listened to some opinions on this that 400 only is for flexible cords as written in UL62. But, since when does a NFPA70 title to a code article only follow one UL standard? I admit the title of article 400 is indeed "Flexible Cords", but does this mean it only applies to a single standard or installation simply because the title to 400 is the same language in the UL62?


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Interesting. Makes me wonder if there is actually any real-world difference between the two listings or is this just some wonks getting lost in details of codes and standards?

My thinking is that if the substantiation for not using cords above drop ceilings is because of the possibility for deterioration, then I really see no difference between a UL817 and UL62 cord. Either the code should deem both acceptable or neither acceptable.


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## Roger (Jul 7, 2007)

Power cords and cord sets never look like this










Wait, I think that was a power cord. 

Roger


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## Mshow1323 (Jun 9, 2012)

Looks more like a SO cord to me


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## mgraw (Jan 14, 2011)

This is a hard one. UL817 references UL62. Also flexible cord is mentioned many times in UL817.


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## retiredsparktech (Mar 8, 2011)

Big John said:


> Interesting. Makes me wonder if there is actually any real-world difference between the two listings or is this just some wonks getting lost in details of codes and standards?
> 
> My thinking is that if the substantiation for not using cords above drop ceilings is because of the possibility for deterioration, then I really see no difference between a UL817 and UL62 cord. Either the code should deem both acceptable or neither acceptable.


Maybe, that's the reason the power cords on most electronic equipment has that stiff double insulation. It might be used in areas where standard power cords aren't allowed. 
Never tried to see how flame ******ant it is!


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

I did not watch the video so this question may have already been answered.

If, for example, you have a corded condensation pump installed above a drop ceiling and it has a cord type recognized in 400.4 is it being argued that a UL listing trumps the NEC? 

Or, is the argument being made that because of a specific UL listing article 400 does not apply in it's entirety?

Pete


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## Mshow1323 (Jun 9, 2012)

It's being argued that UL 67 (flexible cords) pertains to Article 400, while UL 817 (cord sets and power supply cord) is not governed by 400


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## Mshow1323 (Jun 9, 2012)

Mshow1323 said:


> It's being argued that UL 67 (flexible cords) pertains to Article 400, while UL 817 (cord sets and power supply cord) is not governed by 400


The argument is not that UL trumps the NEC, but that the NEC specifically excludes UL 817 from the article 400, and therefore allows cord sets to be used above the grid ceiling.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Mike Holt is a genius when it comes to code.


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## Roger (Jul 7, 2007)

Mshow1323 said:


> Looks more like a SO cord to me


I don't remember where that picture came from but, I replaced a 1/2" drill motor cord set recently that was worse than the cord in the picture. 

I have seen and changed out a number of rotten cord sets.

Roger


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## gnuuser (Jan 13, 2013)

Roger said:


> I don't remember where that picture came from but, I replaced a 1/2" drill motor cord set recently that was worse than the cord in the picture.
> 
> I have seen and changed out a number of rotten cord sets.
> 
> Roger


same here 
regardless of code cords are not designed for long term installation or long term use 
they were designed for flexibility and therefore subject to their limitations
some of these being the materials weakness to oxygen, moisture, heat, harsh chemicals, and sunlight.


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## Mshow1323 (Jun 9, 2012)

gnuuser said:


> same here
> regardless of code cords are not designed for long term installation or long term use
> they were designed for flexibility and therefore subject to their limitations
> some of these being the materials weakness to oxygen, moisture, heat, harsh chemicals, and sunlight.


Well my parents have a chest freezer no less than 20 years old, I guess their's must be exceptional.


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