# Grounding house with well water?



## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

If the water line from the well is plastic and no other qualifying grounding electrodes are present then 2 ground rods would suffice.

If the water piping within the house is metallic then you would have to bond it.

Pete


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## JohnJ65 (May 8, 2008)

Thank you Pete.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

If it has a ufer, no rods required. Metal piping still needs bonding.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Keep in mind that the only reason that the "Code Writers" at the time required that you tied the GROUNDING electrode conductor to a water pipe...of any kind, is because it was presumed that that was probably the best way to insure proper contact with EARTH...AND, it's only purpose was to dissipate the energy of a possible lightning strike at that location. The "ROD" does not make the system work. It is not needed...to make the electrical system work.


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## JohnJ65 (May 8, 2008)

Another question: I have found what I believe to be a type of ground rod in older houses but I am not sure what it is and how it works. 

What I found was a galvanized pipe about 3/4" diameter with a cap on top and a solid copper wire running down inside it. 

What is it and what does the rest of it look like? since I only see the top of it. They are usually found under the panel in the basement along the outside wall. 

When changing out panels I just re-instal it on the neutral buss and drive two more rods outside.


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

JohnJ65 said:


> Another question: I have found what I believe to be a type of ground rod in older houses but I am not sure what it is and how it works.
> 
> What I found was a galvanized pipe about 3/4" diameter with a cap on top and a solid copper wire running down inside it.
> 
> ...


It is a pipe electrode and is compliant if it is 8 feet or longer. The solid copper wire is used to measure the depth of the electrode. 

Only one more additional rod is needed in this situation.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

RIVETER said:


> Keep in mind that the only reason that the "Code Writers" at the time required that you tied the GROUNDING electrode conductor to a water pipe...of any kind, is because it was presumed that that was probably the best way to insure proper contact with EARTH...AND, it's only purpose was to dissipate the energy of a possible lightning strike at that location. The "ROD" does not make the system work. It is not needed...to make the electrical system work.


If I am correct at one point they believed the earth actually cleared faults.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

RIVETER said:


> Keep in mind that the only reason that the "Code Writers" at the time required that you tied the GROUNDING electrode conductor to a water pipe...of any kind, is because it was presumed that that was probably the best way to insure proper contact with EARTH...AND, it's only purpose was to dissipate the energy of a possible lightning strike at that location. The "ROD" does not make the system work. It is not needed...to make the electrical system work.


I can't really say WHAT the ancients thought. I can say that I still see plenty of confusion as to why EUSERC has abandoned un-grounded Services -- and why California inspectors are ever more fanatical about properly bonded and grounded Services.

Up my way nothing less than Ufer grounds will do: ground rods don't cut it.

While I suspect that the plains states have consistent soil conditions -- and conductivity there in -- California's soils are 'all over the lot' as to conductivity.

Since UN-grounded residential services -- these days -- exist only by error -- or breakdown -- most modern electricians have never seen the really ODD things that can happen to insulation during component fault conditions... starting with transformers.

It's a LAW of PHYSICS that an un-grounded transformer (circuit) can generate virtually unlimited PEAK voltages. The actual limit is our atmosphere. Sparks start to jump clear across air gaps -- also referred to as "corona discharges" when these occur inside motor windings. These plasmas are brief. They either dump all of the energy - - or destroy anything near to hand -- perhaps the entire building.

To restate -- since this never sinks in -- the peak voltages possible in an un-grounded Service with failing transformer elements has NO RELATION to the incoming voltage AT ALL. It's nothing for a 240 VAC ungrounded system to have peak voltages way past 2,000 VAC if faulty autoformers are in the system. Just such fiascos were occurring across Los Angeles when EUSERC was founded. 

The line crews / response crews were using PPE suitable for 600 VAC or less and getting killed by voltages later tested at over 4,000 VAC PEAK. Everything was torn apart until it was discovered that in the war-time rush, autoformers... slaved to this or that machine tool... had 'cooked' and were failing on a hit or miss basis. There were so many elements in the system that it was impossible to dope out what was good or rotten.

&&&&&&&

Which is a LONG way of saying that lightning protection is NO PART of why Services need to be grounded. The REAL purpose is that grounding bleeds off all manner of peak impulses possible from collapsing magnetic circuits - - of which all systems have so many.

Motors (especially universal motors -- THE big stressor of Romex -- worn commutator: VERY spikey 
Transformers (Edwards wall-wart sized on up)
Contactor coils 

A grounded Service de facto uses the Earth as a titanic snubbing resistor. 

It's always to hand to bleed off energy that would otherwise try and jump any air gap.

When you throw any switch in a grounded system, the field energy on the load side of the switch has a place to go: it drains into the earth.

Without that drain, the field energy (collapsing magnetic fields, aka "B" fields, {PhD Physics talk} bounces around {inducing current flow/ voltage} until the impedance of the system converts it to heat. All during that time the peak VAC possible usually astounds. These are very sharp peaks, as a rule, as the device is small, too. But, a peak is a peak. The laws of physics and insulation don't let up for a nano-second.

&&&&

Time for a physics tale:

When the AHJ saw what the Berkeley crowd (PhD atomic scientists) had created he demanded a knife disconnect switch -- about the size of a man.

The physicists chuckled: anyone who broke that circuit -- when hot -- would be totally vaporized -- entirely -- into a plasma -- as the massive cyclotron field collapsed -- and the victim became a part of the circuit. They were entirely outside the scope of the NEC engineering and theory.

It WAS installed per his insistence. Above the disconnect was a skull and crossbones informing all and every: anyone pulling this switch is a dead man.

{ The system had huge snubbing resistors to bleed off the energy from their trick set-up. }


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## bkmichael65 (Mar 25, 2013)

........


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

telsa said:


> When you throw any switch in a grounded system, the field energy on the load side of the switch has a place to go: it drains into the earth.
> 
> Without that drain, the field energy (*collapsing magnetic fields*, aka "B" fields, {PhD Physics talk} bounces around {inducing current flow/ voltage} until the impedance of the system converts it to heat. All during that time the peak VAC possible usually astounds. These are very sharp peaks, as a rule, as the device is small, too. But, a peak is a peak. The laws of physics and insulation don't let up for a nano-second.
> 
> ...


You are one of only two posters in my 3 decades reading pro forums to mention _collapsing magnetic fields_ . I'll assume it the same as _collapsing magnetic flux._

My Q to you is, why is this so hard to reference ? 


~CS~


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

telsa said:


> I can't really say WHAT the ancients thought. I can say that I still see plenty of confusion as to why EUSERC has abandoned un-grounded Services -- and why California inspectors are ever more fanatical about properly bonded and grounded Services.
> 
> 
> There is a lot of confusion and misinformation on this subject.
> ...


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Ignore the weird voodoo that always seems to be brought out by these discussions.

2 rods and bond any metallic piping like Pete said and move along. 

Check to see if the pipe to the well is metal and meets the requirements of an underground water pipe though.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Jlarson said:


> Ignore the weird voodoo that always seems to be brought out by these discussions.
> 
> 2 rods and bond any metallic piping like Pete said and move along.
> 
> Check to see if the pipe to the well is metal and meets the requirements of an underground water pipe though.


I should, but I cant help it :laughing: 

Seriously, whats with sticking copper back into the earth after we spend millions to get it out of there in the first place?


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

It's a racket I wish I had thought of.


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## JohnJ65 (May 8, 2008)

Yea, that got a little weird.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

meadow said:


> I should, but I cant help it :laughing:
> 
> Seriously, whats with sticking copper back into the earth after we spend millions to get it out of there in the first place?


Wow! You are wise beyond your ears.


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