# Service for new house



## Noah's Arch (May 23, 2010)

I am working on a new constuction house in Pa. The house is being built behind the existing trailer and garage. The 3 year old 200 amp electrical service and main panel are in the garage. I have done the calculations and found that I only need a 150 Amps for the new house. My question is, am I alowed to keep the 200amp service and main panel in the garage and put a 150amp subpannel in the house. The garage will maybe pull 20amps with lights and some recepticals, (no welders, air commpressers, or exhaust fans). I have done some research in my NEC and I havent found anything that says I cant do it. Thanks for the help


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Yes you can do that, you could put a 200 amp panel at the house as well if you wanted to.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

You can do what you say per the NEC, however, I don't believe the 200 amp panel that is existing will allow you to install 150 amp breaker on the buss. If it will allow you to do that then go for it otherwise move the service to the house and feed back to the garage etc. I would certainly do this if the poco would install the service free of charge. 

In this area the POCO will do it.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> You can do what you say per the NEC, however, I don't believe the 200 amp panel that is existing will allow you to install 150 amp breaker on the buss. If it will allow you to do that then go for it otherwise move the service to the house and feed back to the garage etc. I would certainly do this if the poco would install the service free of charge.
> 
> In this area the POCO will do it.


 
We can usually get the poco/county to allow us to have a service on the house and another one on the garage. Might be easier that way if they will let you.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> We can usually get the poco/county to allow us to have a service on the house and another one on the garage. Might be easier that way if they will let you.


Yeah, they will allow that but you have to pay a minimum meter fee ($20 or so) every month at the garage. Cheaper now but it adds up in the long run. 

My friend wanted to do this but they said if there is no bathroom out in the garage area then they would charge commercial rates, on that meter, rather than residential rates.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> You can do what you say per the NEC, however, I don't believe the 200 amp panel that is existing will allow you to install 150 amp breaker on the buss. If it will allow you to do that then go for it otherwise move the service to the house and feed back to the garage etc. I would certainly do this if the poco would install the service free of charge.
> 
> In this area the POCO will do it.



That is a great point Dennis, I have seen two pole 125s that use four buss spaces but not 150s. 

230.40 Exception 3 would allow him to run service conductors from the garage to the home and set up a 150-200 amp service there.

He would just need to find a legal way to tap the load side of the existing meter. (Only one total meter when done)


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## Electric Al (Mar 13, 2010)

Main service in garage, with sub panel in house. In some cases it is a very good solution. The only problem is branch breakers(to feed sub panel in house) of more than 150 amps are hard to find.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Yeah, they will allow that but you have to pay a minimum meter fee ($20 or so) every month at the garage. Cheaper now but it adds up in the long run.
> 
> My friend wanted to do this but they said if there is no bathroom out in the garage area then they would charge commercial rates, on that meter, rather than residential rates.


 
True but I spend a lot of time in my garage. And of course It has a full HVAC system and a bathroom. The service on my house is on the other end from the garage and has a concrete driveway between it. A seperate meter was the way to go for my situation.


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## Electric Al (Mar 13, 2010)

I have done an overhead service in a garage----with a 200 amp main disconnect, a splitter trough, a 16 cct. combo panel with a 60 amp main breaker in garage... then a feeder from the splitter, u/g to a 200 amp combo panel in basement of house. This was accepted. Cost is higher, but the H.O. was happy.


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## Noah's Arch (May 23, 2010)

What do you mean by a combo panel and could I use this istalation in my situation, only subsitute the 60amp for the existing 200 amp in the garage then feeder from the trough to a 150 amp in the house


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## Electric Al (Mar 13, 2010)

Combo panel has a main breaker. No. You can't feed from the splitter with a 150 amp cable, because the main fuses are 200 amp, so the cable is not protected. But you can feed a 200 amp cable to house, because it will be protected. Or install a second 200 amp fusible disconnect between the splitter and the cable to house, fused at 150 amp. But this will add to the cost!!!


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## Noah's Arch (May 23, 2010)

Ok that makes sense, thank you very much


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Noah's Arch said:


> Ok that makes sense, thank you very much



You seem to be, shall we say, very thankful today. :laughing:


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Electric Al said:


> No. You can't feed from the splitter with a 150 amp cable, because the main fuses are 200 amp,


He can go to the existing meter on the outside of the existing garage, tap the load side of a meter with what ever size conductors can carry the load and supply the new house with these tapped unfused service conductors. He would have to set up the new panel at the new house just like a service because that is what it would be.


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## Electric Al (Mar 13, 2010)

We Can't do that here !:no::no::no: Only one set of wires off the load side of the meter socket.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Electric Al said:


> We Can't do that here !:no::no::no: Only one set of wires off the load side of the meter socket.


Is that written in the actual code, or is that someone's funny idea?


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> He can go to the existing meter on the outside of the existing garage, tap the load side of a meter with what ever size conductors can carry the load and supply the new house with these tapped unfused service conductors. He would have to set up the new panel at the new house just like a service because that is what it would be.


 


Are you saying double lug the meter?If not what would be a legal way to tap the load side of the existing meter? I'm having a hard time picturing it.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> Are you saying double lug the meter?If not what would be a legal way to tap the load side of the existing meter? I'm having a hard time picturing it.


Possible solutions

1) Replace single lugs on meter with double lugs if possible.

2) Replace the meter socket with one that has double lugs

3) Install raintight or waterproof juntion box under the meter socket and use listed connectors to make a 3 way splice (meter, house, garage) in that box.


230.40 exception 3 and 230.90(A) exception 3 will allow this set up.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Electric Al said:


> We Can't do that here !:no::no::no: Only one set of wires off the load side of the meter socket.


Why is that?

Does your code even mention a meter?


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Polaris bugs and H-taps fit in most meter cans too.


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## Electric Al (Mar 13, 2010)

*C.e.c.*

(Canadian Electrical Code). How many are you permitted to install on the load side of the meter can ?


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> Possible solutions
> 
> 1) Replace single lugs on meter with double lugs if possible.
> 
> ...


 

Thanks Bob. I was thinking of the same ways but wasnt sure if that was what you were talking about.


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## Noah's Arch (May 23, 2010)

where would i find a double luged meter socket, ive looked on several websites and cant find one


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Noah's Arch said:


> where would i find a double luged meter socket, ive looked on several websites and cant find one


 
I've only seen 380A and up meter cans with double lugs.But...... I've lead a sheltered life. Milbank, Cutler Hammer and I'm sure all the others make them. Check your supply house, they can see if they have double lug kits or cans with the double lugs in them in for 200A.


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

Call the meter manufacturer and maybe they make a double lug kit.


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## Norcal (Mar 22, 2007)

Use a 200A feed through panel for the garage & then a 200A feed to the house, if my memory serves me the feed through panel only has 8 spaces avail. but in most cases the garage does not need a lot of circuits.


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## Noah's Arch (May 23, 2010)

wouldn't i need a 400amp service for that then?


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Noah's Arch said:


> wouldn't i need a 400amp service for that then?


 You need to calculate the load needed. If the calculated load is 200 amps or less then you can do as mentioned above. Use a 200 amp main breaker panel with feed thru lugs to the house. Of course you will need to drive ground rods at both locations and bond any water pipes etc.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Noah's Arch said:


> wouldn't i need a 400amp service for that then?


 
assuming your load calcs are all correct, you could connect a 200 amp service to (30) 200 amp panels if you felt like it.


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## moman (Apr 15, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I don't believe the 200 amp panel that is existing will allow you to install 150 amp breaker on the buss.
> 
> You say the service is only a few years old. If you cannot land a 150A breaker maybe you can find a lug landing kit instead. it is not a breaker but it is used to land larger wire. Your OCPD in this case would be your main breaker.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

Could just use the 400 amp meter can for your 200 amp service I would think. (Without me digging into it) Would be the same as double lugging after the meter.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

nitro71 said:


> Could just use the 400 amp meter can for your 200 amp service I would think. (Without me digging into it) Would be the same as double lugging after the meter.


 
You can, and that's one easy way to do this if you can't find double lugs for the 200. You can ALWAYS get double lugs for the 320. Good idea.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> You can, and that's one easy way to do this if you can't find double lugs for the 200. You can ALWAYS get double lugs for the 320. Good idea.


Unless the POCO balks at putting a 400 amp meter in? Been a while since I played with meters. Would a 200 amp meter fit in a 400 amp can? Wouldn't think so.. Unless they are the same.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

nitro71 said:


> Unless the POCO balks at putting a 400 amp meter in? Been a while since I played with meters. Would a 200 amp meter fit in a 400 amp can? Wouldn't think so.. Unless they are the same.


 
I don't think a 200 will fit in a 400 can.

I was speaking of a new 320 w/ double lugs.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

I understand that but it was floating around in the back of my head that the POCO might balk at the customer essentially having a 320 amp setup but really having a 200 amp service.


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## crosport (Apr 4, 2010)

moman said:


> Dennis Alwon said:
> 
> 
> > I don't believe the 200 amp panel that is existing will allow you to install 150 amp breaker on the buss.
> ...


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

nitro71 said:


> I understand that but it was floating around in the back of my head that the POCO might balk at the customer essentially having a 320 amp setup but really having a 200 amp service.


 

It's good to be cautious, you could call and ask, but it woud be compliant.

It would be the same as a 200 amp base for a 150 amp load center. They won't care. You could say you're planning for the future


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

moman said:


> Dennis Alwon said:
> 
> 
> > I don't believe the 200 amp panel that is existing will allow you to install 150 amp breaker on the buss.
> ...


That is fine if you service is 150 amps. The OP has a 200 amp panel. If you use the lug kit then you would have to use 200 amp wire to the sub panel.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> The OP has a 200 amp panel. If you use the lug kit then you would have to use 200 amp wire to the sub panel.


I agree with Dennis, but will point out again you can save the cost of a breaker and still use 150 wire with one less conductor if you simply tap the service conductors between the meter and the existing service.


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## crosport (Apr 4, 2010)

Apparently the N.E.Code is less stringent than the C.E.Code.We cannot double lug in or make taps between the meter base and the panel in a residence.Since basically these conductors are considered unprotected the code wants to keep them to a minimum,I suppose.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> I agree with Dennis, but will point out again you can save the cost of a breaker and still use 150 wire with one less conductor if you simply tap the service conductors between the meter and the existing service.


If the distance was close enough for athe tap rule, indeed. Bob, Why wouldn't feed thru lugs be considered a tap? or would they be?


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> If the distance was close enough for athe tap rule, indeed.


The tap rules do not apply to my suggestion at all.

You would simply have a new set of service conductors supplying the new home. They could be run underground or overhead but they could not start inside the garage, they have to start outside the garage.


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## Bowdude (Feb 13, 2010)

You could pull the panel in the garage, put a panel with 200 amp main with feed through lugs, take the panel from the garage and install it in the house. The whole thing is protected be the 200amp main in the garage. You have a main in the house to satisfy the disconnect for seperate structure. You said you already have your load calcs. if the AHJ has any issues. Power provider just has to pull the meter and put it back in when you are done.
Just run a (4) wire rated for 200amp and split your grounds and neutrals in house and get your grounding electrode system and you are good to go.


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