# Service panel upgrade



## BrettD70 (Jun 9, 2018)

Im changing my cousins service panel out on his house next week. Its going from a 70 amp to 125. Typically I work on commercial jobs and industrial jobs. A lot of my work is for At&T right now. Last panel change I did was 14 years ago for my own house. So now I am wondering about code changes I need to be aware of. I am aware of the two ground rods with in 6 feet rule but what I am really wondering about is do I have to install arc fault breakers on the the circuits that cover the bedrooms? Its a old house and the circuits for one bedroom covers part of the living room and one of the other bedrooms shares power with the bathroom. Im not changing any of the wiring in the house. Im just doing a panel upgrade.
Also The panel is moving to a different location closer to the street. Overhead feed. Is it ok to run the branch circuits in a conduit from the new panel location into the attic and intercept all the old romex branch circuits in a j box?
thanks for any help. 
Brett


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## Service Call (Jul 9, 2011)

It’s 2 ground rods no closer than 6’ spacing and if you extend any of the AFCI required branch circuits more than 3’ they will need AFCI protection


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

It’s not just a panel swap if your relocating the panel. It’s a rewire. All new codes apply to all the circuits


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## BrettD70 (Jun 9, 2018)

So this existing panel has 2-15 amp circuits, 2-20 amp circuits and 1- two pole 40 amp for the the oven. Would I just have to change the(2) 15 amp circuits to AFCI protected breakers? I think one of the 20amps covers the garage and the other one covers the bathroom and kitchen. Would that require an AFCI breaker? Im hoping the inspector is not going to want me to rewire the whole house. Im in San Diego area if that makes any difference.


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

BrettD70 said:


> So this existing panel has 2-15 amp circuits, 2-20 amp circuits and 1- two pole 40 amp for the the oven. Would I just have to change the(2) 15 amp circuits to AFCI protected breakers? I think one of the 20amps covers the garage and the other one covers the bathroom and kitchen. Would that require an AFCI breaker? Im hoping the inspector is not going to want me to rewire the whole house. Im in San Diego area if that makes any difference.


AFCI is determined first by location and second by which year of the Code your state adopted plus local code changes where some state or local jurisdiction changed it. You can often download or ask for those for free. www.nfpa.org and you can read it online free.

Also 125 A is sort of an odd size as is 70. Most new construction is 150 or 200. It's cheaper to buy a prepopulated panel at the local big box store. BUT you can't just upside arbitrarily. The utility has to be sized for it, and you will probably need them to pull the meter to kill power anyways. So I'm not getting why you're hung up on AFCIs and Codes when it's obvious you're not pulling a permit, you're probably going to just cut the real off the meter, and you're going to add a bunch of stuff and upsize the breaker to the point the meter is probably going to overload and burn up, then the utility will come out and disconnect service and the Code official is going to staple a big condemned notice on the door, until you file a permit, fix it all and get an occupancy permit again. If you get a local residential guy to do it it will be well under $1000 including materials and done faster with no troubles with the inspector or giving you a hard time because you didn't do it the typical way they do it.

IF you know somebody that does residential, you can probably work out a deal where they run the job and you buy materials and act as helper. That way you save the few bucks that you would have saved if you knew residential and you get free training. It might only cost a case of beer on a Saturday depending on who you ask.

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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

BrettD70 said:


> So this existing panel has 2-15 amp circuits, 2-20 amp circuits and 1- two pole 40 amp for the the oven. Would I just have to change the(2) 15 amp circuits to AFCI protected breakers? I think one of the 20amps covers the garage and the other one covers the bathroom and kitchen. Would that require an AFCI breaker? Im hoping the inspector is not going to want me to rewire the whole house. Im in San Diego area if that makes any difference.


You do not have to install afci unless you modify the circuit, as in, adding another receptacle or something to the circuit



> 210.12(D) Branch Circuit Extensions or Modifications — Dwelling
> Units and Dormitory Units. In any of the areas specified in
> 210.12(A) or (B), where branch-circuit wiring is modified,
> replaced, or extended, the branch circuit shall be protected by
> ...


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Dennis Alwon said:


> You do not have to install afci unless you modify the circuit, as in, adding another receptacle or something to the circuit


Sounds like he is going far beyond the 6' extension of conductors to me.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Sounds like he is going far beyond the 6' extension of conductors to me.


That's what happens when you don't read the entire post. Yeah, he will need afci on some of those circuits. I made a proposal to extend the length of 6' and define that the measurement is from box to box and not the wire inside the enclosure.

I suggested 20' or so but left that up to them.-- If they come back with 7' I think I will shoot myself.:vs_laugh:


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

125 amp is odd. Maybe not in the US?


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## CTshockhazard (Aug 28, 2009)

99cents said:


> 125 amp is odd. Maybe not in the US?


 Yes, it is odd here too.


My neck'o the woods it goes pretty much like this:


Small house - 100 Amp
Big house - 200 Amp
Really big house - 400 Amp


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## BrettD70 (Jun 9, 2018)

paulengr said:


> Also 125 A is sort of an odd size as is 70. Most new construction is 150 or 200. It's cheaper to buy a prepopulated panel at the local big box store. BUT you can't just upside arbitrarily. The utility has to be sized for it, and you will probably need them to pull the meter to kill power anyways. So I'm not getting why you're hung up on AFCIs and Codes when it's obvious you're not pulling a permit, you're probably going to just cut the real off the meter, and you're going to add a bunch of stuff and upsize the breaker to the point the meter is probably going to overload and burn up, then the utility will come out and disconnect service and the Code official is going to staple a big condemned notice on the door, until you file a permit, fix it all and get an occupancy permit again. If you get a local residential guy to do it it will be well under $1000 including materials and done faster with no troubles with the inspector or giving you a hard time because you didn't do it the typical way they do it.


 Its actually going to a 100 amp service panel. Don't know why I said 125. The work is permitted with the city and coordinated with SDG&E (the local utility)They have already been out to the house and approved the new panel location and size. I'm only going to a 100 amp circuit because we are only going to add one more 20 amp circuit in the future but not at this time.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

99cents said:


> 125 amp is odd. Maybe not in the US?


Most guys on the ball would go with 150 or 200 not 125.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Dennis Alwon said:


> That's what happens when you don't read the entire post. Yeah, he will need afci on some of those circuits. I made a proposal to extend the length of 6' and define that the measurement is from box to box and not the wire inside the enclosure.
> 
> I suggested 20' or so but left that up to them.-- If they come back with 7' I think I will shoot myself.:vs_laugh:



I did read the entire post it seemed you were contradicting yourself to an extent.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Most guys on the ball would go with 150 or 200 not 125.


Even 150 is odd. You match the service - 100 or 200. I have never seen anything that would require 400 (and I don't know if I want to).


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

I see lots of 70 amp services in multifamily dwellings (older ones) and commercial stalls. The 125 probably is coming from him looking at load center boxes in the orange store, they sell lots of panels with a rating of 125 amps , which usually are used for sub panels fed with a 100 amp breaker.

Around California especially around the Bay Area there are lots of 150 amp services, complete with 150 service overcurrent breakers . When I visit places I have a hard time not looking at how things get done in that area. I50 seems to me to be a nice option. I wish we could put in 150's around here, some places I put 200 is definite overkill.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

99cents said:


> Even 150 is odd. You match the service - 100 or 200. I have never seen anything that would require 400 (and I don't know if I want to).


A 10k+ sq ft home normally has a 400 amp service!


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

Welcome to Electrician Talk. 
Thanks for taking the time to fill out your profile.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

MechanicalDVR said:


> I did read the entire post it seemed you were contradicting yourself to an extent.


I was saying that I did not read the entire post not you. The "you" was meant as "one" and I meant it as me.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

BrettD70 said:


> So this existing panel has 2-15 amp circuits, 2-20 amp circuits and 1- two pole 40 amp for the the oven. Would I just have to change the(2) 15 amp circuits to AFCI protected breakers? I think one of the 20amps covers the garage and the other one covers the bathroom and kitchen. Would that require an AFCI breaker? Im hoping the inspector is not going to want me to rewire the whole house. Im in San Diego area if that makes any difference.


Put duel function breakers on every 120 volt circuit and be done with it.
Bathroom mixed with kitchen ...this mixed with that...don't kill yourself over it.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

paulengr said:


> AFCI is determined first by location and second by which year of the Code your state adopted plus local code changes where some state or local jurisdiction changed it. You can often download or ask for those for free. www.nfpa.org and you can read it online free.
> 
> Also 125 A is sort of an odd size as is 70. Most new construction is 150 or 200. It's cheaper to buy a prepopulated panel at the local big box store. BUT you can't just upside arbitrarily. The utility has to be sized for it, and you will probably need them to pull the meter to kill power anyways. So I'm not getting why you're hung up on AFCIs and Codes when it's obvious you're not pulling a permit, you're probably going to just cut the real off the meter, and you're going to add a bunch of stuff and upsize the breaker to the point the meter is probably going to overload and burn up, then the utility will come out and disconnect service and the Code official is going to staple a big condemned notice on the door, until you file a permit, fix it all and get an occupancy permit again. If you get a local residential guy to do it it will be well under *$1000 *including materials and done faster with no troubles with the inspector or giving you a hard time because you didn't do it the typical way they do it.
> 
> ...


really?


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

paulengr said:


> AFCI is determined first by location and second by which year of the Code your state adopted plus local code changes where some state or local jurisdiction changed it. You can often download or ask for those for free. www.nfpa.org and you can read it online free.
> 
> Also 125 A is sort of an odd size as is 70. Most new construction is 150 or 200. It's cheaper to buy a prepopulated panel at the local big box store. BUT you can't just upside arbitrarily. The utility has to be sized for it, and you will probably need them to pull the meter to kill power anyways. So I'm not getting why you're hung up on AFCIs and Codes when it's obvious you're not pulling a permit, you're probably going to just cut the real off the meter, and you're going to add a bunch of stuff and upsize the breaker to the point the meter is probably going to overload and burn up, then the utility will come out and disconnect service and the Code official is going to staple a big condemned notice on the door, until you file a permit, fix it all and get an occupancy permit again. If you get a local residential guy to do it it will be well under $1000 including materials and done faster with no troubles with the inspector or giving you a hard time because you didn't do it the typical way they do it.
> 
> ...


Who would ever swap and move a panel for less than $1000 w/material?


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## matt1124 (Aug 23, 2011)

I use 125A sometimes. Some parts of the city have 1/0 coming underground, and depending on the POCO engineer's mood it can be 125 or 150.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Who would ever swap and move a panel for less than $1000 w/material?


If I'm not mistooken , he was talking about a new meter base as well.
That's why I asked....but no response ..oh well.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

lighterup said:


> If I'm not mistooken , he was talking about a new meter base as well.
> That's why I asked....but no response ..oh well.


I can't ever recall hearing of just a panel change for $1000, let alone moving it.


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## matt1124 (Aug 23, 2011)

MechanicalDVR said:


> I can't ever recall hearing of just a panel change for $1000, let alone moving it.


I've changed small ones (little zinsco 6-8 ckt) before under 1k. But no permit, inspection etc though. Those little reno panels that come with a couple 15 amp singles and a 30 amp double are $65. Add in another 6 breakers you're out the door with a $100 bill. You can't throw one of those bad boys in a clothes closet on a Saturday afternoon for $650 *cash*?


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

matt1124 said:


> I've changed small ones (little zinsco 6-8 ckt) before under 1k. But no permit, inspection etc though. Those little reno panels that come with a couple 15 amp singles and a 30 amp double are $65. Add in another 6 breakers you're out the door with a $100 bill. You can't throw one of those bad boys in a clothes closet on a Saturday afternoon for $650 *cash*?


That type job maybe closer to a sub panel swap than a real panel swap but you have a point.

The panel swap with moving it and running circuits to the attic as described here isn't a job that $1000 is going to cover in any location I've worked or one in an area guys that I've talked prices with work in.


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

MechanicalDVR said:


> That type job maybe closer to a sub panel swap than a real panel swap but you have a point.
> 
> The panel swap with moving it and running circuits to the attic as described here isn't a job that $1000 is going to cover in any location I've worked or one in an area guys that I've talked prices with work in.



The sizing and small number of circuits sounds like a typical FPE swap that is so common in NJ. Last time I looked a 20-24 circuit panel prepopulated at a big box store with a reputable name brand (not subpanel grade) ran around $200 last time I did one. Takes about 4 hours to do the swap, 4 hours waiting on lineman, and another day worth of paperwork and setting up the job runs up 2 days of labor so even at $50/hour x 16 hours = $800 so it's still right at $1000 or less.


Now if you're landing terminal strips in a second box, pulling conduit, running through an attic, etc., you're adding another day to the job and probably a helper. That's running it as described, but that probably isn't the way a residential electrician would do it, and since residential is about as cut throat as it gets you're not going to be charging $50-$75/hour commercial/industrial rates either.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

MechanicalDVR said:


> I can't ever recall hearing of just a panel change for $1000, let alone moving it.



I happen to know a certain franchise company out here
commonly quotes over $4,000.00 when they bid panel 
change outs , upgrades , meter socket change outs etc..

I know this cause customers have shown me their bids 
and one of those customers happened to be my relative.

I was shocked :glasses: I really thought I was at the 
higher end until I seen a few of these.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

paulengr said:


> The sizing and small number of circuits sounds like a typical FPE swap that is so common in NJ. Last time I looked a 20-24 circuit panel prepopulated at a big box store with a reputable name brand (not subpanel grade) ran around $200 last time I did one. Takes about 4 hours to do the swap, 4 hours waiting on lineman, and another day worth of paperwork and setting up the job runs up 2 days of labor so even a*t $50/hour x 16 hours = $800 so it's still right at $1000 or less.*
> 
> 
> Now if you're landing terminal strips in a second box, pulling conduit, running through an attic, etc., you're adding another day to the job and probably a helper. That's running it as described, but that probably isn't the way a residential electrician would do it, and since residential is about as cut throat as it gets you're not going to be charging $50-$75/hour commercial/industrial rates either.



Paul this would be a side job for an unlicensed guy or a self employed
electrician who doesn't have a clue about his/her value not to mention
has completely left out a bunch of other OH figures.

Although I completely disagree there's a "days worth of paperwork" i still
say this is way low.


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

I live in rural North Carolina. The only way we get "Code" jobs done here is if you know the Code and stand there and make them do it. New construction is a bit different but remodel work is just plain scary. The only way you get "licensed guys" in residential is paying a commercial outfit to do it and they bitch about even quoting the job because they figure they won't get it or it's not a tract home job so they're not doing 150 of them in a month so no interest. They're out there but you can't even get them to come out and quote the job. So even if there's an interest unless you have friends good luck getting anyone to do a residential remodel job that's licensed, done to Code, maybe pull permits if you're lucky, etc. It was the same way in Southern NJ (Vineland), Kentucky, Georgia...all the places I've lived. I hate residential not because of all the rules, not even because of all the jack legs, but because it is such a pain to get someone to do the work right.


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## matt1124 (Aug 23, 2011)

paulengr said:


> The sizing and small number of circuits sounds like a typical FPE swap that is so common in NJ. Last time I looked a 20-24 circuit panel prepopulated at a big box store with a reputable name brand (not subpanel grade) ran around $200 last time I did one. Takes about 4 hours to do the swap, 4 hours waiting on lineman, and another day worth of paperwork and setting up the job runs up 2 days of labor so even at $50/hour x 16 hours = $800 so it's still right at $1000 or less.
> 
> 
> Now if you're landing terminal strips in a second box, pulling conduit, running through an attic, etc., you're adding another day to the job and probably a helper. That's running it as described, but that probably isn't the way a residential electrician would do it, and since residential is about as cut throat as it gets you're not going to be charging $50-$75/hour commercial/industrial rates either.


I have an electrician friend in his 80s and he’s $55 an hour. Resi is like $110, commercial almost $200. You must live in a small town. 

My $800 6 ckt zinsco days are long gone, although sometimes I think I prefer the small overhead, working for a commercial outfit and being able to do resi on the side days than this running my own shop thing. 

Two questions for the engineer:
Which value pack comes with 24 breakers?
What is a subpanel grade panel/can we use the **** stuff like GE or homeline if not service equipment?


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## matt1124 (Aug 23, 2011)

MechanicalDVR said:


> That type job maybe closer to a sub panel swap than a real panel swap but you have a point.
> 
> The panel swap with moving it and running circuits to the attic as described here isn't a job that $1000 is going to cover in any location I've worked or one in an area guys that I've talked prices with work in.


Yeah I wouldn’t touch it with a 10’ clown pole.

A 1/4 of the city here is still 60 amp 6 or 8 space zinsco/xo/fuses, with the old “b can” hanging meter box.


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## electricalwiz (Mar 12, 2011)

paulengr said:


> The sizing and small number of circuits sounds like a typical FPE swap that is so common in NJ. Last time I looked a 20-24 circuit panel prepopulated at a big box store with a reputable name brand (not subpanel grade) ran around $200 last time I did one. Takes about 4 hours to do the swap, 4 hours waiting on lineman, and another day worth of paperwork and setting up the job runs up 2 days of labor so even at $50/hour x 16 hours = $800 so it's still right at $1000 or less.
> 
> 
> Now if you're landing terminal strips in a second box, pulling conduit, running through an attic, etc., you're adding another day to the job and probably a helper. That's running it as described, but that probably isn't the way a residential electrician would do it, and since residential is about as cut throat as it gets you're not going to be charging $50-$75/hour commercial/industrial rates either.


What year were contractors charging $50 an hour.
I have been in business for 15 years and never charged $50 an hour


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Mike Holt's is over that away....................:2guns:


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

I get $125/ hr for 2 men or $70 an hour for one man and we are in NC. I am sure $50/hr is ridiculously low in some areas.


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## electricalwiz (Mar 12, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I get $125/ hr for 2 men or $70 an hour for one man and we are in NC. I am sure $50/hr is ridiculously low in some areas.


He mentioned Vineland NJ, which is between Philly and NYC 
I do not know of anybody who ever charged that low


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

My boss charged $72.50 for a foreman and a truck and as low as $65. I make over $33 an hour in the check. I keep telling him I don't think he's charging enough. 

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## electricalwiz (Mar 12, 2011)

TGGT said:


> My boss charged $72.50 for a foreman and a truck and as low as $65. I make over $33 an hour in the check. I keep telling him I don't think he's charging enough.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


what part of the country are you in 
what is the cost of living 
in this area cost of housing and taxes are pretty high, IMO


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

electricalwiz said:


> what part of the country are you in
> what is the cost of living
> in this area cost of housing and taxes are pretty high, IMO


DFW. Not as cheap as it used to be.

We do mostly commercial service and construction. 
Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

paulengr said:


> The sizing and small number of circuits sounds like a typical FPE swap that is so common in NJ. Last time I looked a 20-24 circuit panel prepopulated at a big box store with a reputable name brand (not subpanel grade) ran around $200 last time I did one. Takes about 4 hours to do the swap, 4 hours waiting on lineman, and another day worth of paperwork and setting up the job runs up 2 days of labor so even at $50/hour x 16 hours = $800 so it's still right at $1000 or less.
> 
> 
> Now if you're landing terminal strips in a second box, pulling conduit, running through an attic, etc., you're adding another day to the job and probably a helper. That's running it as described, but that probably isn't the way a residential electrician would do it, and since residential is about as cut throat as it gets you're not going to be charging $50-$75/hour commercial/industrial rates either.


$50 per hour??? LMAO, not in Jersey bro!

More like $100-$150 per hr.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

lighterup said:


> I happen to know a certain franchise company out here
> commonly quotes over $4,000.00 when they bid panel
> change outs , upgrades , meter socket change outs etc..
> 
> ...


Depending on my work load at the time I'd normally be a tad more then half of their number.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

I know some very good one and two man shops in my area that are barely over 50 dollars an hour. Companies that have been around longer than I've been alive and on the second or third generation. I definitely wouldn't call them bottom feeders or hacks by any stretch of the imagination. Maybe just a little out of touch with pricing.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

matt1124 said:


> Yeah I wouldn’t touch it with a 10’ clown pole.
> 
> A 1/4 of the city here is still 60 amp 6 or 8 space zinsco/xo/fuses, with the old “b can” hanging meter box.


For $2250 I'd do them all day long.


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## matt1124 (Aug 23, 2011)

“Member when we was kids” and we’d get a check for $38 after taxes from working after school at the grocery store? Man that was big money. Your weekend was made, man!!!

In fact, that’s probably part of my dislike of unions. They made us join grocery workers union, and took dues from our checks. They took away our fatigue mats at the registers “because they were ugly”. The manager wouldn’t replace them, so I called the union rep. 16 years old and I remember hanging up angry thinking “man this union is some bull****!”


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

paulengr said:


> The sizing and small number of circuits sounds like a typical FPE swap that is so common in NJ. Last time I looked a 20-24 circuit panel prepopulated at a big box store with a reputable name brand (not subpanel grade) ran around $200 last time I did one. Takes about 4 hours to do the swap, 4 hours waiting on lineman, and another day worth of paperwork and setting up the job runs up 2 days of labor so even at $50/hour x 16 hours = $800 so it's still right at $1000 or less.
> 
> 
> Now if you're landing terminal strips in a second box, pulling conduit, running through an attic, etc., you're adding another day to the job and probably a helper. That's running it as described, but that probably isn't the way a residential electrician would do it, and since residential is about as cut throat as it gets you're not going to be charging $50-$75/hour commercial/industrial rates either.



Okay ...you've divulged enough info for me to make an assessment.

I'm an electrician who does a lot of residential. All of your prejudices
are damn near 100% off. You have no clue what you're talking
about. Just stop.


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## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

I had a project manager that used to say all the time "the difference between what you cost an hour and $100 wouldn't buy me a cup of coffee". I know he meant everything, including things not in the envelope and benefits. Things like workers comp. 

I'm glad NJ doesn't require arcfault for what the OP has described. Although it is only a few breakers from what he is describes, just do it and charge your relative. He's saving enough.


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## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

Don't forget to put in the intersystem bonding bar for the low voltage utilities. Put it on the #6 going to the ground rod.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

I haven't read everything here but wouldn't it be easier to run pipe on the outside of the building to the old panel location?


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

matt1124 said:


> “Member when we was kids” and we’d get a check for $38 after taxes from working after school at the grocery store? Man that was big money. Your weekend was made, man!!!
> 
> In fact, that’s probably part of my dislike of unions. They made us join grocery workers union, and took dues from our checks. They took away our fatigue mats at the registers “because they were ugly”. The manager wouldn’t replace them, so I called the union rep. 16 years old and I remember hanging up angry thinking “man this union is some bull****!”


Sounds like a pretty weak union.

It's only as good as it members, had you all got together and forced your needs on the local things may have been different.


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## matt1124 (Aug 23, 2011)

:vs_bananasplit: *SPECIAL DEAL* :vs_bananasplit:

Service panel changeouts by paulengr, only $399.95!!!


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## nysparkdude (Jun 7, 2012)

*Suggestion*



BrettD70 said:


> Im changing my cousins service panel out on his house next week. Its going from a 70 amp to 125. Typically I work on commercial jobs and industrial jobs. A lot of my work is for At&T right now. Last panel change I did was 14 years ago for my own house. So now I am wondering about code changes I need to be aware of. I am aware of the two ground rods with in 6 feet rule but what I am really wondering about is do I have to install arc fault breakers on the the circuits that cover the bedrooms? Its a old house and the circuits for one bedroom covers part of the living room and one of the other bedrooms shares power with the bathroom. Im not changing any of the wiring in the house. Im just doing a panel upgrade.
> Also The panel is moving to a different location closer to the street. Overhead feed. Is it ok to run the branch circuits in a conduit from the new panel location into the attic and intercept all the old romex branch circuits in a j box?
> thanks for any help.
> Brett



With all this talk about requirements for AFCI and $1000 cost, let me add my two cents.
If you relocate the panel, you WILL require AFCI provided that the move is 6 feet in length. Some inspectors interpret the code literally as it indicates 6 feet of conductor length which if accounting for feed and neutral would limit you to 3 feet of cable literally. I do not agree with that but I do know that some inspectors compel this very literal interpretation. Regardless, to avoid the necessity of having to install AFCI circuit breakers, install a disconnect either inside or outside, run sub-feed cable to the existing location and convert/purchase your new panel to sub-panel. Of course grounding/bonding now goes to disconnect. You indicated this is your cousin's home, $1000 should more than cover the job including adding the time for obtaining the permit, awaiting utility crews and meeting the inspector. I would spend the extra money for the AFCI's myself but not everyone believes in AFCI. The statistical data however; does support AFCI. In upstate NY, a 100A service change can run anywhere from $600 to $5000. Both ends of that spectrum are still doing business so it's difficult to criticize. Personally, I wouldn't leave my house for the lower end.


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## matt1124 (Aug 23, 2011)

nysparkdude said:


> With all this talk about requirements for AFCI and $1000 cost, let me add my two cents.
> If you relocate the panel, you WILL require AFCI provided that the move is 6 feet in length. Some inspectors interpret the code literally as it indicates 6 feet of conductor length which if accounting for feed and neutral would limit you to 3 feet of cable literally. I do not agree with that but I do know that some inspectors compel this very literal interpretation. Regardless, to avoid the necessity of having to install AFCI circuit breakers, install a disconnect either inside or outside, run sub-feed cable to the existing location and convert/purchase your new panel to sub-panel. Of course grounding/bonding now goes to disconnect. You indicated this is your cousin's home, $1000 should more than cover the job including adding the time for obtaining the permit, awaiting utility crews and meeting the inspector. I would spend the extra money for the AFCI's myself but not everyone believes in AFCI. The statistical data however; does support AFCI. In upstate NY, a 100A service change can run anywhere from $600 to $5000. Both ends of that spectrum are still doing business so it's difficult to criticize. Personally, I wouldn't leave my house for the lower end.


Statistical data, LOL. Have you seen people build a test rig for AFCI? Until they build a breaker that can detect a glowing nut or terminal, plain or GFCI breakers for me.


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