# Changeover MC to EMT



## georgep2 (Feb 26, 2013)

Yes.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

georgep2 said:


> Yes.


:no:




> *300.15 Boxes, Conduit Bodies, or Fittings —Where Required.*
> A box shall be installed at each outlet and switch
> point for concealed knob-and-tube wiring.
> Fittings and connectors shall be used only with the specific
> ...


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## georgep2 (Feb 26, 2013)

BBQ said:


> :no:


Incorrect.

A from-to isn't required to be accessible.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

georgep2 said:


> Incorrect.
> 
> A from-to isn't required to be accessible.


Read 300.15(F) again...:whistling2:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

georgep2 said:


> Incorrect.
> 
> A from-to isn't required to be accessible.


It is a 'pull point' it must be accessible.


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## georgep2 (Feb 26, 2013)

BBQ said:


> It is a 'pull point' it must be accessible.


Incorrect, it is not a pull point any more than an MC connector in a box or an EMT coupling is a pull point. Neither of which require accessibility.


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## IronIcarus (Feb 26, 2013)

So if I am to use flex to pipe it would have to be greenfield, since I should be able to pull wire through both? Assuming the anti short bushing stays intact? Or is this still a pull point? I am hoping BBQ is correct it would make the job at hand easier to execute. Not to offend anyone but I am hoping for another party to break the stailmate, with an explanation would be much appreciated.


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## danickstr (Mar 21, 2010)

You havent been clear in one regard: Will all pullboxes/j-boxes be accessible below ceiling? If so, the answer is yes. If there are pullpoints, J-boxes buried in the ceiling, then the answer is NO.


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## georgep2 (Feb 26, 2013)

danickstr said:


> You havent been clear in one regard: Will all pullboxes/j-boxes be accessible below ceiling? If so, the answer is yes. If there are pullpoints, J-boxes buried in the ceiling, then the answer is NO.


IMO his post was pretty clear, he is not asking to bury any type of pullbox or j-box, just a from-to (or whatever you want to call the adapter).


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

georgep2 said:


> Incorrect, it is not a pull point any more than an MC connector in a box or an EMT coupling is a pull point. Neither of which require accessibility.


We disagree here, it is a pull point because of the EMT.

Please explain how the end of a raceway is not a pull point.


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## georgep2 (Feb 26, 2013)

BBQ said:


> We disagree here, it is a pull point because of the EMT.
> 
> Please explain how the end of a raceway is not a pull point.


Explaining a negative is a futile practice. Please explain how it IS a pull point.

Why would you need access to the from-to but not to an EMT coupling? An EMT connector? An MC connector?


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## danickstr (Mar 21, 2010)

I guess if you are going from MC to pipe, you cannot bury that point, because you have to have a box to make up the wires. If you can bring the MC to below the wall and put a center LB or something, then your splice is not in the drywall. burying the splice up in the drywall, whatever kind of box/knuckle full of wire nuts you use won't be accessible. BBQ is right.

George you may be confusing MC and flex.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

I would check with your inspector. changeovers have been allowed here for years, and are still allowed, regardless of what appears to be the technically correct interpretation of BBQ (which I consider to be chicken ****, but which I am sure some inspectors up there might be enforcing. It's chicken **** because "pull point", to my thinking, would be a point at which conductors might be pulled at a later point. How the hell are you going to ever pull those wires in later. ) just my 2c (of course, it' not a whole lot of wire to just run it down the wall to whereever you are going anyway, so I don't see the big advantage of changeovers anyway, unless the stub ups are already there)


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## IronIcarus (Feb 26, 2013)

In my 2nd post I meant georgep2 not BBQ. But I feel after hearing the arguements I feel that BBQ is probably right. It doesn't feel right burying the change over I was hoping for an overwhelming yes to being able to do it. I will have to change my original thought process and bring any change over to a possible access panel or hatch.


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## georgep2 (Feb 26, 2013)

danickstr said:


> I guess if you are going from MC to pipe, you cannot bury that point, because you have to have a box to make up the wires. If you can bring the MC to below the wall and put a center LB or something, then your splice is not in the drywall. burying the splice up in the drywall, whatever kind of box/knuckle full of wire nuts you use won't be accessible. BBQ is right.
> 
> George you may be confusing MC and flex.


Who said anything about splicing? :blink:


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## georgep2 (Feb 26, 2013)

IronIcarus said:


> In my 2nd post I meant georgep2 not BBQ. But I feel after hearing the arguements I feel that BBQ is probably right. It doesn't feel right burying the change over I was hoping for an overwhelming yes to being able to do it. I will have to change my original thought process and bring any change over to a possible access panel or hatch.


Why would you need access to the MC going into the MC connector on the from-to (change-over) but not access to MC going into an MC connector on any other box or enclosure? What makes a from-to a "pull point"?


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## danickstr (Mar 21, 2010)

the MC ends. The pipe begins. The pipe needs wires for the lectricity to run in.

the MC wires have ended at the MC. 

What am I missing?


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## IronIcarus (Feb 26, 2013)

I was thinking just that about getting in touch with the local inspecter. Just hope he doesn't charge me for even the phone call, in the last few years they've been charging a gas surcharge to come and inspect.


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## IronIcarus (Feb 26, 2013)

danickstr said:


> the MC ends. The pipe begins. The pipe needs wires for the lectricity to run in.
> 
> the MC wires have ended at the MC.
> 
> What am I missing?


I would strip back as much armored cable off whether it be 1 foot or 20 feet and send that through the pipe (no splicing)


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## georgep2 (Feb 26, 2013)

danickstr said:


> the MC ends. The pipe begins. The pipe needs wires for the lectricity to run in.
> 
> the MC wires have ended at the MC.
> 
> What am I missing?


The fact that the conductors continue down the pipe.

Have you ever seen a from-to? We used to make them with rigid couplings but now we just buy them.

You can get them in single or double, here's a picture of the double:


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## georgep2 (Feb 26, 2013)

IronIcarus said:


> I was thinking just that about getting in touch with the local inspecter. Just hope he doesn't charge me for even the phone call, in the last few years they've been charging a gas surcharge to come and inspect.


That's your best option.

Even if I am wrong about this, I have still passed dozens of inspections in which the inspector didn't mind the from-to's being buried. We did this in every room of a 6 story dormitory a few years back (not my idea!) and the inspectors were fine with it.


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## danickstr (Mar 21, 2010)

That is some kind of creative hack just to avoid an LB at the top of a wall. I can't imagine an inspector passing that, unless he doesn't catch it. But if he sees it I doubt he will let it go. gotta go look at a job. Good luck with this one! I'll check later.


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## IronIcarus (Feb 26, 2013)

georgep2 I love your arguement and agree but am not sure if it is interpretted that way by my local inspecter was hoping to avoid having to possibly pay twice for one inspection.Everybody is after the buck.


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## JOHNNYARCNSPARK (Dec 19, 2012)

IronIcarus said:


> I was thinking just that about getting in touch with the local inspecter.


That's the best bet. There's right and wrong, and then whatever the inspector says trumps either.:laughing: I've worked in a few parts of the country, and it's amazing how each area deciphers things differently. Around here, we regularly change over from EMT to sealtite with a rigid coupling. When i was in St. Louis, that was a big no no. Of course, that was after it was all terminated.

Sorry for not being much help. My specialty is levity.:001_huh:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

georgep2 said:


> The fact that the conductors continue down the pipe.
> 
> Have you ever seen a from-to? We used to make them with rigid couplings but now we just buy them.
> 
> ...


Of course the cable conductors continue down the raceway, of coures you can get them, that has nothng to do with the requiments for them to be accessible. 

The NEC requires that we can repull the conductors in a raceway, to do that with a 'from to' requires the fitting to be accessible.


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## IronIcarus (Feb 26, 2013)

danickstr said:


> That is some kind of creative hack just to avoid an LB at the top of a wall. I can't imagine an inspector passing that, unless he doesn't catch it. But if he sees it I doubt he will let it go. gotta go look at a job. Good luck with this one! I'll check later.


 I don't know where the LB comes from, and I hope you don't regularly splice in one either. It would have to be a bit over sized to allow splicing.


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## danickstr (Mar 21, 2010)

LB or 4S box. I like center LB for looks since looks seems to be an issue if he's doing this to save 3 bucks and five minutes he lost it on forums and phone call to inspector.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

georgep2 said:


> Explaining a negative is a futile practice. Please explain how it IS a pull point.


It is where the conductors are installed and removed from the raceway. It is a pull point






> Why would you need access to the from-to but not to an EMT coupling?


You do not install or remove conductors at a coupling.




> An EMT connector?


The box the connector is attached to is required to be accessible so that the conductors can be replaced. 



> An MC connector?


That is not a raceway, we cannot replace the conductors in cables.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

wildleg said:


> How the hell are you going to ever pull those wires in later.


I agree with you, but right now there is no NEC exception.


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## NacBooster29 (Oct 25, 2010)

I use change overs all the time. I wouldn't change my install technique, to suit some code article with no practical purpose. 
An inspector who cites someone on this is just splitting hairs. 
What is.going to change after the hard ceiling goes up? You cannot add any conductors to mc...
If you need to pull the mc out of the emt, you will need to be making holes in the ceiling so what is to be gained?
Just my .02


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## btharmy (Jan 17, 2009)

NacBooster29 said:


> I use change overs all the time. I wouldn't change my install technique, to suit some code article with no practical purpose.
> An inspector who cites someone on this is just splitting hairs.
> What is.going to change after the hard ceiling goes up? You cannot add any conductors to mc...
> If you need to pull the mc out of the emt, you will need to be making holes in the ceiling so what is to be gained?
> Just my .02


I think this is the point. Some inspectors will fail it because you can't add or remove cables form the conduit without cutting the drywall to get to the fitting. If you extend the conduit to an accessible location then, no problem.


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## georgep2 (Feb 26, 2013)

BBQ said:


> Of course the cable conductors continue down the raceway, of coures you can get them, that has nothng to do with the requiments for them to be accessible.
> 
> The NEC requires that we can repull the conductors in a raceway, to do that with a 'from to' requires the fitting to be accessible.


What makes this a raceway vs. a sleeve? The fact that the sheath is taken off? What if you sleeve romex in a piece of EMT and take the sheath off for the last 6 inches before it comes into the box, would that be a violation?


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## cultch (Aug 2, 2011)

99.9% of the time we get away with changeovers and it's accessible by lifting the light up outa place. Boom your in...even a j box which we try to avoid but if it's close to the light than you can get to it without taking the building apart.


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

Stupid post.


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

Not that my opinion matters any more than the proverbial hill of beans but our AHJ has never allowed us to bury a change over in an inaccessible location. They treat exactly the same as a box and its done that way right across the board......and everyone is aware of it now.

The smartest thing to do is to verify it with your inspector.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

georgep2 said:


> What makes this a raceway vs. a sleeve?


In my opinion a sleeve is a section of tubing or conduit on it's own, neither end connected to anything and the wiring method run through is a cable that does not require a raceway.

Once you attach the tubing to the box, to the cable armor and strip the remaining armor (or sheath) you have to call it a raceway. You cannot run single 'open' condutors through a sleeve.

Here is the bottom line for me. 

I do not care what you, the opening poster, wildleg or even myself really do. I may have buried some of these in the past, but I honestly believe it currently is an NEC violation.


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## georgep2 (Feb 26, 2013)

BBQ said:


> In my opinion a sleeve is a section of tubing or conduit on it's own, neither end connected to anything and the wiring method run through is a cable that does not require a raceway.


 Out of curiosity, how about the following:

In unfinished basements with block/cement walls it's common around here to run romex up high around the joists but then when going down to the sump pump or light switch we will put an EMT or PVC stub up from the box (with a connector) to the ceiling and run the romex inside of it. I was under the impression that this is code compliant. By what you said earlier, if there was a hard ceiling put in this basement and that stub went above it, it wouldn't be code compliant because you need access to where the romex goes into it?


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

georgep2 said:


> Out of curiosity, how about the following:
> 
> In unfinished basements with block/cement walls it's common around here to run romex up high around the joists but then when going down to the sump pump or light switch we will put an EMT or PVC stub up from the box (with a connector) to the ceiling and run the romex inside of it. I was under the impression that this is code compliant. By what you said earlier, if there was a hard ceiling put in this basement and that stub went above it, it wouldn't be code compliant because you need access to where the romex goes into it?


Not only common, also required:

*Art. 334.15(C)*

*C) In Unfinished Basements and Crawl Spaces.* Where
cable is run at angles with joists in unfinished basements
and crawl spaces, it shall be permissible to secure cables
not smaller than two 6 AWG or three 8 AWG conductors
directly to the lower edges of the joists. Smaller cables
shall be run either through bored holes in joists or on running
boards. NM cable installed on the wall of an unfinished
basement shall be permitted to be installed in a listed
conduit or tubing or shall be protected in accordance with
300.4. Conduit or tubing shall be provided with a suitable
insulating bushing or adapter at the point the cable enters
the raceway. The NM cable sheath shall extend through the
conduit or tubing and into the outlet or device box not less
than 6 mm (1⁄4 in.). The cable shall be secured within
300 mm (12 in.) of the point where the cable enters the
conduit or tubing. Metal conduit, tubing, and metal outlet
boxes shall be connected to an equipment grounding conductor.


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## georgep2 (Feb 26, 2013)

Welp, that answers all of my questions. The sheath needs to be 1/4" into the box. I have seen that before but I forgot about it, too much damn code to remember everything!


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## LightsOn81 (Jan 6, 2012)

I believe it's a no go. Also there are other forms of flexible type conduit that cannot be made inaccessible such as LFMC. Just get you so Greenfield or hard pipe it all the way if possible.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

BBQ said:


> Please explain how the end of a raceway is not a pull point.


Sleeve?


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

220/221 said:


> Sleeve?


Wouldn't it then cease to be a raceway and live out the rest of its lonely life as a mechanical sleeve? Pretty sure Bob already addressed sleeves.


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## markore (Dec 7, 2011)

*Sleeve practical requirements*

The restrictions BBQ posted have a practical safety application, since it is apparent some confusion is widespread within the industry around the correct use of these fittings.

If these fittings are used for the sleeve application then two are required.

The regular NM or MC connector should be used from the first box and the jacket should be run unbroken up to the sleeve and continued on unbroken through the sleeve and to the equipment served.

The fittings used at each end of the sleeve are for the purpose of mechanically fixing and supporting the cable passing through.

The jacket should not be stripped off inside the sleeve and the inside of the sleeve should not be used as a raceway or splice point.

I feel that if you keep the practical applications in mind you will have a better time with inspectors. Imagine if you were a service electrician in a new facility and you saw a box with EMT leaving that appeared to have room for new circuits. You would not want to put a metal fish tape through and come into contact with splices made inside the pipe or fittings in a buried/inaccessible location. By using the romex or mc cable connectors at the box before using the adapting fittings as a clamp you avoid this confusing practice and provide an installation the inspector is more likely to view as an actual sleeve and pass.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

IronIcarus said:


> So if I am to use flex to pipe it would have to be greenfield,



If you use flexible metallic conduit then you can bury it.

If you use MC, the transition is a pull point. It's where you pull the wire into the EMT, right? The EMT to MC transition defeats the purpose of conduit.


DAMMIT I got suckered into an old post. Damn you Markore


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## markore (Dec 7, 2011)

220/221 said:


> the transition is a pull point


If one end of the raceway is connected to a box and the other transitions to cable, yes the transition is a pull point.

If a clamped MC or NM cable leaves one box, enters a sleeve using an approved clamp, exits a sleeve using an approved clamp, and terminates at equipment, I don't see a pull point is specified as long as the cable jacket is left intact and no splices are made for the entirety of the run. The fitting used must be of a type listed for the sleeve with a clamp listed for the cable secured. (not for individual conductors)


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## markore (Dec 7, 2011)

The difference being if one end of a raceway is connected to a box it then appears intended for individual conductors, which would be a problem if the other end of the raceway is not accessible.

By maintaining the integrity of the cable and using only the cable to connect at both ends you make it possible for someone following you to connect the dots since both ends appear as the exact same cable, with no modification or removal of jacket.


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## markore (Dec 7, 2011)

*The difference between raceways, nipples, and sleeves*

The difference between raceways, nipples, and sleeves


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## Ninjazx916r (Apr 1, 2011)

IronIcarus said:


> In the past I have changed over from MC to EMT or Rigid Gal. pipe from Grid style drop ceilings into sheetrock walls or in order to surface mount on a wall. The change over was always accessible. Can I still change over from MC to pipe in a non accessible ceiling void. The ceilng is dropped but will be sheetrock.


It don't always have to be accessible. For example if you have a flex, sealtight or even emt connector to a rigid coupling and then to another type of raceway. that point can be conceal. But if you have a pull box, it must be accessible.


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