# VFD choices



## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

Chris1971 said:


> I'm looking for a VFD for a 208 volt, three phase motor 5 hp. It will run an exhaust blower motor that the customer would like to manually adjust the speed. Any recommendations on brands that wouldn't be to expensive?


All I ever buy and install is ABB drives mostly for fish plant stuff (that's the plant's preference). That might be kinda spendy for your application though. So therefore I have no answer for you other than just about anything will do. Is it going inside a cabinet/enclosure or is it just going to mount on a wall somewhere out in the open?

If the latter you can get one that's all enclosed (no exposed wiring terminations) and you can usually order them with a built-in potentiometer for easy manual speed adjustment. If the former, most of the ones I've dealt with have an option for installing a flush-mount control interface on the cabinet door.

Anyway if you decide to go with ABB that's all I know anything about :laughing: I believe the ACS 150 series goes up to 5 horsepower.

EDIT: Nevermind the ACS150 is a "component drive" I guess - intended to be built into a control panel or some such. An ACS310 might suffice, but again, something cheaper can be had but you'll have to ask someone else.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Drives

Inexpensive and easy for this type of application.


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## DesignerMan (Jun 13, 2008)

Lenze AC Tech, SMVector Drives work nice at a reasonable price.
They come in NEMA 1 & 4X, up to 20HP at 200/240V 3-phase.

Link:


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## Concept (Mar 30, 2012)

If cost is a issue then x2 on the automation direct drives. We have installed about 30 of them over the last 6 years and have had one failure so far. The manuals that come with the drive are excellent for new users as well.


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

Thanks for the info. I will look at automation direct.com.


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## lukejenson (Sep 14, 2009)

Chris1971 said:


> Thanks for the info. I will look at automation direct.com.


I avoid automation direct whenever I can. I have had lot of failed drives over the years from them.


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## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

lukejenson said:


> I avoid automation direct whenever I can. I have had lot of failed drives over the years from them.


+1
I call them 'Automation Destruct'. Good low cost simple drives have been mentioned above already, just add Teco to the list to replace AD. 

A great resource list for low cost VFDs on-line is Factorymation.com, Wolf Automation, Dealers Electric and Drives Warehouse. They all sell multiple brands mentioned above, except FactoryMation, which is like the "outlet store" for Teco where they sell off previous model line inventory at reduced prices, but not their current products. Still new though.

The problem with buying on-line though is support. Sometimes you can get lucky, but most of the time not. Back when I was still a contractor and panel builder, I once proved that point with Automation Destruct when a customer insisted I use them. I called their 800 number for tech support, put the phone on speaker, and carried on our planning session for over a half hour with their Muzak playing over the speaker. Finally the user said "I get your point" and bought from a local distributor he trusted. I always recommend that if you can afford the extra percentage.

I don't work for any of them by the way, I actually work for a mfr, but we have never been known for being cheap... After you get your feet wet on VFDs with a few of the cheap ones under your belt and want one that does more than average, lasts longer and can talk to the rest of a control system, that's where we step in. But we can be pretty brutal on virgins. If you can recite the first two letters of the alphabet (without stuttering), you can find us. :whistling2:


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## sparkywannabee (Jan 29, 2013)

Just go with AB, you will save in the long run. Vacon is another really good drive.


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## oliquir (Jan 13, 2011)

automation direct gs3 vfd, no gs2 or gs1, gs3 vfd are delta with an ad label, has several installed for over 5 years still working great
gs1 or gs2 are very cheap and compare to actech basic vfds which are pure junk

i have also used several abb vfd (550) in the past and i have a bunch of them failed, not more reliable than any cheap vfd


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## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

Delta is a decent drive, didn't know that about the AD GS3. Vacon small drives, the ones that used to be TB Woods, had a great reputation for reliability and I agree those are still good, just a little low on features now because they haven't been updated. But the larger Vacon drives from Finland have been getting a bad reputation for being problematic here in the US. They are also brand labeled by Cutler Hammer and several of the CH guys I know n the industry hate getting an order for them, they think they are more trouble than they are worth. I used them on a couple of projects when I was on my own, I still get asked to help those poor people out.

Despite being a head-to-head competitor, I don't really have anything negative to say about the ABB ACS550 drives. If you had multiple problems, it was likely something weird going on. That can happen to anyone and if you don't get someone with a lot of experience with weird crap, it can be frustrating trying to learn. I've been doing drives now for over 25 years, I've seen a LOT of weird stuff out there and for most of it, the brand of drive won't matter a hill of beans.


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## KennyW (Aug 31, 2013)

AB Powerflex 525 or an ABB ACS355

Looks like 525 are cheaper than PF4 now. 

The ABB is maybe a hair cheaper depending on what your distribution relationships are like but they are pretty comparable. 

IMO stuff like Automation Direct is awesome for high schools or hobbyists but putting something like that in a commercial or industrial site is asking for trouble. 

I took a training course for the rebranded vacon/eaton drives. I did not leave that course wanting to ever have to install one.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

http://www.kbelectronics.com/Variable_Speed_AC_Drives_Inverters.html


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## lukejenson (Sep 14, 2009)

I'm with JRaef when he says "for most of it, the brand of drive won't matter a hill of beans."

There are so many choices out there for about the same price range. I'd definitely avoid VFDs sold on eBay.

The most advanced drive that I have programmed was from Lenze.

The easiest drive that I programmed was from ABB.


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

For the cost and the size of the motor, I would certainly look at Johnson Controls drives. I've used them in a few applications and have had pretty good luck with them so far. I'm an authorized sales and service rep for ABB drives and I still used Johnson because I couldn't get close to the price.


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## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

Rollie73 said:


> For the cost and the size of the motor, I would certainly look at Johnson Controls drives. I've used them in a few applications and have had pretty good luck with them so far. I'm an authorized sales and service rep for ABB drives and I still used Johnson because I couldn't get close to the price.


Those are brand labeled Vacon drives...


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

JRaef said:


> Those are brand labeled Vacon drives...


I've done a few of those and they have the tiniest wiring compartment I've ever dealt with.


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## lukejenson (Sep 14, 2009)

Vacon is now Danfoss.


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

JRaef said:


> Those are brand labeled Vacon drives...


Thanks....good info:thumbsup:



erics37 said:


> I've done a few of those and they have the tiniest wiring compartment I've ever dealt with.


 
I've yet to see the name Vacon here in my area. Danfoss is very widely used here though.

The wiring compartment is miniscule.....my only real complaint with the drive.


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## Batfink (Jul 9, 2014)

I have installed about 60 automation direct drives in the last 5 years and have had 4 failures so far. I have also installed about 30 Allen Bradley and ABB drives and have had 3 failures of each. Maybe I am having better luck with them then most?


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## NC Plc (Mar 24, 2014)

I've never installed automation direct drives, just PLCs. I've installed 3 ABB drives with no known failures. Pricey things.


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

As I said, we are an authorized dealer and service centre for ABB drives and I see very few absolute failures for the drives. If I had to make a living doing nothing but repairing ABB drives, my family would be very hungry.


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## NC Plc (Mar 24, 2014)

Rollie73 said:


> As I said, we are an authorized dealer and service centre for ABB drives and I see very few absolute failures for the drives. If I had to make a living doing nothing but repairing ABB drives, my family would be very hungry.


That's probably why my boss insists on using them. The last one I put in was when we replaced a 100 hp motor with a 50 hp motor, had to replace the drive accordingly. The cost of that thing was enough to put me on edge while installing it. 

Come to think of it, the only thing we ever use from AD are their PLCs. Temperature sensors, drives, etc all come from other places with drives coming solely from ABB.


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

NC EET said:


> That's probably why my boss insists on using them. The last one I put in was when we replaced a 100 hp motor with a 50 hp motor, had to replace the drive accordingly. The cost of that thing was enough to put me on edge while installing it.
> 
> Come to think of it, the only thing we ever use from AD are their PLCs. Temperature sensors, drives, etc all come from other places with drives coming solely from ABB.


Yep....the cost of purchasing that ABB drive is expensive but once its there, it wont be touched. The only thing I seem to replace on them is the external keypad and that's usually do to loss or damage. I've had some issues with the bypass on some of the larger (100 HP and up) ones but they are relatively trouble free.


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## NC Plc (Mar 24, 2014)

Rollie73 said:


> Yep....the cost of purchasing that ABB drive is expensive but once its there, it wont be touched. The only thing I seem to replace on them is the external keypad and that's usually do to loss or damage. I've had some issues with the bypass on some of the larger (100 HP and up) ones but they are relatively trouble free.


That makes me feel good, my job depends on maintaining high amounts of online time and minimizing maintenance by catching small problems before they become large problems. :laughing:


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## mikey383 (May 21, 2012)

I've taken a liking to AB drives, especially the smaller ones. If you just need basic speed control, a Powerflex 4 or 525 would work great. Just set up the first dozen or so parameters and go.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

I recently installed and programmed 9 Baldor VFDs. 5 were the older Baldor type, the other 4 were the newer Baldor/ABB ones. 

The older ones were good, the newer ones were even better. Easy to program; if you have a decent knowledge of VFDs, you could program one without the manual. Especially the newer ones. 

On one of the newer ones I had to use the 'DC Hold' feature; this doesn't exist on the older ones. 

2 of the older ones used 3 preset speeds, the rest were 4-20 mA. 

6 of them needed to be able to operate either locally (keypad) or remotely (PLC). The other 3 needed the keypad locked out (PLC only). All of them needed to have a switch out in the field closed in order to operate under any condition. Further, when in remote, a permissive from the PLC was needed. In local it was not. 

I spite of all this, connecting the controls and programming was easy.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

NC EET said:


> I've never installed automation direct drives, just PLCs. I've installed 3 ABB drives with no known failures. Pricey things.


With VFDs, like most other electrical stuff, you pretty much get what you pay for. The least expensive one is almost never the best choice.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

micromind said:


> I recently installed and programmed 9 Baldor VFDs. 5 were the older Baldor type, the other 4 were the newer Baldor/ABB ones.
> 
> The older ones were good, the newer ones were even better. Easy to program; if you have a decent knowledge of VFDs, you could program one without the manual. Especially the newer ones.
> 
> ...


The last Baldor drives i sold or worked on were the "15H" and the "18H" series.
Both drives used what they called easy descriptive programming and all faults were spelled out for you. No need to run for the manual to see what the fault was.
The 18H was a closed loop vector that was the cats ass as far as low end torque.
Both were simple to program and also easy to use. They both had auto tune feature on board.
I thought it was a very successful series. I understand they do not make either control today?


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

I can't remember what the older ones were, but the newer ones were something like ACB530 or thereabouts. 

The newer ones had the autotune but you had to uncouple the motor from the load in order to use all of it. Some of the motors were pretty good-sized (60 - 100HP) and a few were C-face/no base; no crane or even a forklift around. 

Also, ABB is involved in this somehow, the control connections (and associated parameters) can be either Baldor 2 wire or ABB 2 wire. Same with 3 wire.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

I would go with whatever your supplier seems the most well versed in. If you don't do them all the time you want decent help for the programming and such.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

micromind said:


> I can't remember what the older ones were, but the newer ones were something like ACB530 or thereabouts.
> 
> The newer ones had the autotune but you had to uncouple the motor from the load in order to use all of it. Some of the motors were pretty good-sized (60 - 100HP) and a few were C-face/no base; no crane or even a forklift around.
> 
> Also, ABB is involved in this somehow, the control connections (and associated parameters) can be either Baldor 2 wire or ABB 2 wire. Same with 3 wire.


The old ones had to have the motor uncoupled for the auto tune except for the very last parameter in the auto tune section. You ran a series of tests uncoupled, then on the last test you ran it coupled.
It was a nice easy way to start up a drive and motor. Enter the motor data and let the control do the rest.

Baldor bought ABB and Reliance. I think.


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## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

John Valdes said:


> ...
> Baldor bought ABB and Reliance. I think.


Reliance was bought by Rockwell and rolled into Allen Bradley, who then sold the motor and gearbox divisions to Baldor. ABB then later bought Baldor and fired the ABB drives reps in favor of the Baldor reps across the country, which gave the impression that Baldor was the top and ABB was the bottom. But ABB is the Dom and Baldor was the sub.


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## DougAles (Jan 2, 2015)

JRaef said:


> +1
> If you can recite the first two letters of the alphabet (without stuttering), you can find us. :whistling2:


LOL, I like that.......that. :thumbsup:


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

I just installed a Telemecanique Aitivar 31 rated 3HP 3ph in a 240 1ph 3HP exhaust fan and it worked great. Its running under its max current even though it's running a 3 ph load on single phase power. It's what came with the fan and the owner was looking for a cheap option. So I gave it a try.


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## Magoo5150 (Mar 1, 2007)

backstay said:


> I just installed a Telemecanique Aitivar 31 rated 3HP 3ph in a 240 1ph 3HP exhaust fan and it worked great. Its running under its max current even though it's running a 3 ph load on single phase power. It's what came with the fan and the owner was looking for a cheap option. So I gave it a try.


I am a big fan of the Altivar series drives. In the last couple of years I have installed probably close to 40 Altivar 31, 312, 61, and 71's. No failures to date. Their software is free and very user friendly. With the built in macros for pumps, hoisting, etc, setup is great. I also have had great performance from ABB.


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## DriveAppsEngineer (Apr 29, 2015)

I was the lead engineer for Yaskawa for 18 years and would highly recommend their economical micro drive series V1000. I am now a distributor and have seen hardly any failures.

Victor Hofmann
Automated Drive Systems
Omaha, NE 68137


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

DriveAppsEngineer said:


> I was the lead engineer for Yaskawa for 18 years and would highly recommend their economical micro drive series V1000. I am now a distributor and have seen hardly any failures.
> 
> Victor Hofmann
> Automated Drive Systems
> Omaha, NE 68137


Victor. who do you sell to in Omaha. KD?


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## DriveAppsEngineer (Apr 29, 2015)

No, we are a premier distributor for Yaskawa and support a wide variety of surrounding industries, including being a UL508A custom panel shop and integrator.


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## Dirceu Dasilva (May 2, 2015)

i work with Yaskawa VFDs and have no complaints about them


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