# pre twist or let connector do the twisting ?



## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

certain brands of wirenuts direct the installer not to twist the splice prior to connector installation, others, such as Twister do the work for you. So which is really the best way, I've been pre twisting for the length of my career except for a few of those days when I just don't care.


----------



## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

HELL NAHW I don't pretwist.

I've never seen anybody except maintenance men pre-twist.

Maybe in the days of lead scotch-loks, but now??


----------



## electricalperson (Jan 11, 2008)

here comes 10 pages of people fighting 

i pretwist.


----------



## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Shockdoc said:


> So which is really the best way,


There isn't one.


----------



## ibuzzard (Dec 28, 2008)

Shockdoc said:


> *pre twist or let connector do the twisting ? * So which is really the best way


Please,shoot me now!LOL


----------



## Ray Cyr (Nov 21, 2007)

The best way is the one that works for the situation at hand.


----------



## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Shockdoc said:


> I've been pre twisting for the length of my career except for a few of those days when I just don't care.


ShockDoc, I had so much respect for you, up until this timely revelation...


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Anyone who doesn't twist wires with their pliers should be shot in the head.


----------



## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

pretwist and then snip the ends even, you do it enough and it's faster than fumbling with three or four wires to get the ends even.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Bkessler said:


> pretwist and then snip the ends even, you do it enough and it's faster than fumbling with three or four wires to get the ends even.


Exactly.

I honestly can't see how someone could call a 4 wire splice without pre-twisting a professional job. I would debate firing you on the spot if I ever saw that.


----------



## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

I agree.


----------



## Ray Cyr (Nov 21, 2007)

HackWork said:


> Exactly.
> 
> I honestly can't see how someone could call a 4 wire splice without pre-twisting a professional job. I would debate firing you on the spot if I ever saw that.


You don't work with stranded wire much, do you?


----------



## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

HackWork said:


> Exactly.
> 
> I honestly can't see how someone could call a 4 wire splice without pre-twisting a professional job. I would debate firing you on the spot if I ever saw that.


I agree with HW. I wouldn't go as far as firing the person but I would chew them out big time. I freaked out on another apprentice one time when he went through on the rough and did that and I went back on the finish and had to fix every single one he did.


----------



## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

Stranded wire I strip back about an inch and have a special twisting technique with my linemans that twists the wire solid but doesn't over twist them to where the strands "bunch up", just takes practice.


----------



## ibuzzard (Dec 28, 2008)

HackWork said:


> I would debate firing you on the spot if I ever saw that.


Routinely pre-twisting here,would earn you a funny look, then a remark or two, then two checks.I only ever consider it when I've got a combination of stranded/solid wire,and even then, only when I'm close to capacity on a given wire connector.Go one size up,usually no problems.

Like I said, shoot me now, these threads are a waste of (otherwise)good egos.


----------



## DIRT27 (Aug 25, 2010)

I pre-twist :thumbsup:

I twist the wires before I twist the wires:thumbup:


----------



## RUSSIAN (Mar 4, 2008)

In 8 years of electrical construction I have never met one person that pre-twists, you'd most likely get sent packin if you did. I do know a couple east coast guys that used to, but once they got here they dropped that habit. I honestly see no need for it with modern wire nuts.


----------



## al13nw4r3LC76 (Apr 6, 2009)

I pre twist if there is say maybe 4 or more conductors. If its less than that no way. Its never been a problem for me.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Ray Cyr said:


> You don't work with stranded wire much, do you?


I was speaking of solid.

As far as stranded, if you are splicing 4-5 12's or 10's then I would want a twist or two with pliers.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

thegoldenboy said:


> I agree with HW. I wouldn't go as far as firing the person but I would chew them out big time. I freaked out on another apprentice one time when he went through on the rough and did that and I went back on the finish and had to fix every single one he did.


If you are going to make a splice and tuck it in the back of the box in which it probably won't be touched again, chances are it'll be ok if the conductors aren't twisted. But when you are making 3 and 4 wire splices in a trough or large box that will have many other people working in it over the years, pulling on the wires, moving everything around, the conductors need to be pre-twisted.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

ibuzzard said:


> Routinely pre-twisting here,would earn you a funny look, then a remark or two, then two checks.I only ever consider it when I've got a combination of stranded/solid wire,and even then, only when I'm close to capacity on a given wire connector.Go one size up,usually no problems.
> 
> Like I said, shoot me now, these threads are a waste of (otherwise)good egos.


It has nothing to do with ego, it's just good workmanship.


----------



## ibuzzard (Dec 28, 2008)

HackWork said:


> But when you are making 3 and 4 wire splices in a trough or large box that will have many other people working in it over the years, pulling on the wires, moving everything around, the conductors need to be pre-twisted.


"Thus ,Sayeth the Lord!"

Move along,nothing to see here,Folks.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

ibuzzard said:


> "Thus ,Sayeth the Lord!"
> 
> Move along,nothing to see here,Folks.


If you don't like what is being discussed in this thread, stop clicking on it.


----------



## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

HackWork said:


> It has nothing to do with ego, it's just good workmanship.


Says you. So I guess it must be.


----------



## Ima Hack (Aug 31, 2009)

I always twist my connections unless I've been drinking on the job and forget.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

electricmanscott said:


> Says you. So I guess it must be.


I'm not allowed an opinion???


----------



## ibuzzard (Dec 28, 2008)

HackWork said:


> I'm not allowed an opinion???


Not if you're married.


----------



## ibuzzard (Dec 28, 2008)

HackWork said:


> If you don't like what is being discussed in this thread, stop clicking on it.


Yes,dear............


----------



## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

HackWork said:


> I'm not allowed an opinion???





HackWork said:


> Anyone who doesn't twist wires with their pliers should be shot in the head.





HackWork said:


> Exactly.
> 
> I honestly can't see how someone could call a 4 wire splice without pre-twisting a professional job. I would debate firing you on the spot if I ever saw that.





HackWork said:


> I was speaking of solid.
> 
> As far as stranded, if you are splicing 4-5 12's or 10's then I would want a twist or two with pliers.





HackWork said:


> But when you are making 3 and 4 wire splices in a trough or large box that will have many other people working in it over the years, pulling on the wires, moving everything around, the conductors need to be pre-twisted.


Here's what an opinion might look like, "_I think_ twisting makes for a better connection and a more professional job"

Your replies are not opinions.


----------



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

thegoldenboy said:


> I agree with HW. I wouldn't go as far as firing the person but I would chew them out big time.


You would chew someone out for following the directions that come with the product.





> I freaked out on another apprentice one time when he went through on the rough and did that and I went back on the finish and had to fix every single one he did.


That was a stupid waste of time.


----------



## kinglew (Mar 16, 2008)

pre twist all the time 10 years in construction 22 years in plant. most reliable way in my humble opinion.


----------



## ibuzzard (Dec 28, 2008)

kinglew said:


> ....most reliable way in my humble opinion.


That does it!There's absolutely no place for humility in these kinds of discussions!


----------



## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

Follow manufactures instruction, if they say do not pre-twist do not pre-twist. Not following manufactures instruction is a violation of 110.3(B).


----------



## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

RUSSIAN said:


> In 8 years of electrical construction I have never met one person that pre-twists, you'd most likely get sent packin if you did. I do know a couple east coast guys that used to, but once they got here they dropped that habit. I honestly see no need for it with modern wire nuts.



And here you would get sent back home for not twisting..


----------



## kinglew (Mar 16, 2008)

hows this twist = better connection more readability do it


----------



## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

kinglew said:


> hows this twist = better connection more readability do it


very well said


----------



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> And here you would get sent back home for not twisting..


No one has said no twisting, the question is about pre-twisting and the directions tell us it is not necessary.


----------



## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> No one has said no twisting, the question is about pre-twisting and the directions tell us it is not necessary.




Uh I left off the PRE.....I actually read this thread Bob. Damn grammer nazi!:laughing:


----------



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> Uh I left off the PRE.....I actually read this thread Bob. Damn grammer nazi!:laughing:


Its funny, electricians get all up in arms about this but will walk by grounding violations without a second thought. :blink:


----------



## Ima Hack (Aug 31, 2009)

I'll probably get slammed for saying this.... I don't know that I've EVER read the instructions on a bag of wirenuts.


----------



## ibuzzard (Dec 28, 2008)

?????????


----------



## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

My wirenut incident was a result of me trying to pre-twist.

From that experience, I've learned that I would still pretwist 12awg solid, and leave the stranded fixture wire untwisted and let the wirenut do the work, (as well as use a _proper_ wirenut for the task).

I used to wrap the stranded around the solid twists, but I no longer do that.

Smaller gauge wire (some 14 awg and smaller), I may not pre-twist, but 12awg solid and larger I'll definitely pretwist. I did used to work on a job where men that didn't pretwist their splices were soon sent packing.

Anymore, I simply ask what the man running the job wants and adjust my technique accordingly so everything on the job is uniform.


----------



## The Lightman (Jan 9, 2010)

Ima Hack said:


> I don't know that I've EVER read the instructions on a bag of wirenuts.


Pay attention to #4.


----------



## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

HackWork said:


> Anyone who doesn't twist wires with their pliers should be shot in the head.


:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:

That's some funny sh*t right there.

I always pre-twist.

splice, snip, wirenut, repeat.


----------



## Breakfasteatre (Sep 8, 2009)

In my limited experience, wires that werent pretwisted, if the wirenut fell off, say from pulling the wires down out of a box to make other connections, the non-nutted wires wouldnt have a very reliable connection. 

I think this is an important point about non pre=twisted connections




In my interview a couple weeks ago, i was told policy was to pretwist.


----------



## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

HackWork said:


> If you are going to make a splice and tuck it in the back of the box in which it probably won't be touched again, chances are it'll be ok if the conductors aren't twisted. But when you are making 3 and 4 wire splices in a trough or large box that will have many other people working in it over the years, pulling on the wires, moving everything around, the conductors need to be pre-twisted.


Horse poop!

If you pre twist wires, solid or stranded, you will get the false sense that the wire is secure. 
If you let the wirenut act as the pressure connector it is designed to be, you will not have a problem.
I have bee at this for a long time. I find problems with overloaded twitsed connections all of the time.
People twist them all together and then twist the wirenut on only the conductors sticking up the highest. Of course, it feels nice and tight. 
Then, they tape the whole thing......:laughing:


----------



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Pretwisting became necassary with the earlier junk wirenuts, and I was a sworn pretwister for years. But more and more manufacturers say pretwisting is not necassary, and some actually say DO NOT pretwist.

Think about this, twist #12 together and look at it closely. You have created "threads" with the wire itself. The "threads per inch" do not match the wirenut. If you look at the outside edge of the wires(the part that touches the metal in the nut) you will see high spots and low spots created by you pretwisted "thread". Look closely, the wirenut will only be touching the wire in "different places". Not all the way accross, like a newly stripped wire. Here's a test to prove it.(I've done it)

Get a twister pro, DO NOT pretwist, even ends, insert wire and using a torque screwdriver twist the nut untill it "strips". Record needed torque.



Now, do you little pretwist, and torque until it "strips". I GUARANTEE YOU, it will strip and slip at a MUCH MUCH lower setting. 



Quit being too proud to follow the instructions.


----------



## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Agree w/ mcclary, when I started in the trade we used those brown ideal and eagle wirenuts, if a splice wasn't twisted it was junk. The schotchlok was the first wirenut I used that advised against twisting . Old habits are hard to kill, I still twist line connections and ground connections prior to crimp. I love debates cause, "the rent is too damn high".


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

I pre twist almost every splice unless there is some weird reason not to.


----------



## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

HackWork said:


> Exactly.
> 
> I honestly can't see how someone could call a 4 wire splice without pre-twisting a professional job. I would debate firing you on the spot if I ever saw that.


 My stewert would take that one to arbitration,any day!


----------



## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

I always pre-twist.


----------



## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> You would chew someone out for following the directions that come with the product.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I didn't lose sleep over it. The guy was lazy in other aspects and I was constantly going behind him fixing things on the project, but when I had to lay on my stomach underneath theater seating X amount of times, taking twice as long to do one simple job I was a little irate. His status with the company has long since been terminated.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

electricmanscott said:


> Here's what an opinion might look like, "_I think_ twisting makes for a better connection and a more professional job"
> 
> Your replies are not opinions.


Then what are they?

If I say that pre-twisting is the only way to do a professional job, then that is my opinion. You not agreeing with that doesn't change anything.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

The Lightman said:


> Pay attention to #4.


We understand the instructions, pre-twisting is not necessary.

The instructions on crappy receptacles say to push the wire into the hole, but we all know that might not make the best connection over time. As a professional you are expected to perform your work accordingly. I deal with very expensive work and high paid labor, in that instance there is absolutely no reason not to do the best job possible. And it's a much better job pre-twisting the conductors.


----------



## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Shockdoc said:


> Agree w/ mcclary, when I started in the trade we used those brown ideal and eagle wirenuts, if a splice wasn't twisted it was junk. The schotchlok was the first wirenut I used that advised against twisting . Old habits are hard to kill, I still twist line connections and ground connections prior to crimp. I love debates cause, "the rent is too damn high".




We use a lot of stakons. You know your connection is good that way. 

I saw a reporter ask that guy about something he said 5 years ago. He said when did I say that????


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

jrannis said:


> I have bee at this for a long time. I find problems with overloaded twitsed connections all of the time.


 Is this a penis measuring contest? 


> People twist them all together and then twist the wirenut on only the conductors sticking up the highest. Of course, it feels nice and tight.
> Then, they tape the whole thing......:laughing:


They were installed wrong, no one conductor should be ahead of the next. A professional electrician will twist and snip the conductors even in a flash, then install the wirenut in a solid fashion.

Who ever installed the wirenuts that you were talking about did not do it correctly if they allowed one conductor to get that far ahead of the others and not snip it even.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

bobelectric said:


> My stewert would take that one to arbitration,any day!


Do you mean your "steward"?


----------



## etb (Sep 8, 2010)

I've always wanted to try this but never took the time: Wire up a large load (may need to overload) with 6 wirenuts. Pre-twist three, don't pre-twist three; same strip lengths, same nut torques, and leave enough wire to provide some thermal isolation.
L1---Pre---Pre---Pre---No---No---No---LOAD---L2
After the nuts get hot, measure their temps. Coolest connection = least resistance = probably better method.

My $0.02: I pre-twist solids and let the nut twist the stranded.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

etb said:


> I've always wanted to try this but never took the time: Wire up a large load (may need to overload) with 6 wirenuts. Pre-twist three, don't pre-twist three; same strip lengths, same nut torques, and leave enough wire to provide some thermal isolation.
> L1---Pre---Pre---Pre---No---No---No---LOAD---L2
> After the nuts get hot, measure their temps. Coolest connection = least resistance = probably better method.
> 
> My $0.02: I pre-twist solids and let the nut twist the stranded.


I don't pre-twist for the best electrical connection at the time of installation, I am more worried about down the line after they have been moved around and pulled on, etc.


----------



## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

HackWork said:


> Do you mean your "steward"?


Yeah! The union guy we buy lunch for.


----------



## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

I don't like pulling wires out of a j-box only to have a wirenut fall off and a 277V splice come apart. Therefor I always "pre-twist" my wires.


----------



## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

jwjrw said:


> We use a lot of stakons. You know your connection is good that way.
> 
> I saw a reporter ask that guy about something he said 5 years ago. He said when did I say that????


On the rare occasions that I pull stranded I purchase spec grade back wire(screw pressure) devices, I'm assuming that's what your'e using stakons for. I tried those backstab connectors (like the ones the hihats come with) a while back, their fast but costly .


----------



## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Shockdoc said:


> On the rare occasions that I pull stranded I purchase spec grade back wire(screw pressure) devices, I'm assuming that's what your'e using stakons for. I tried those backstab connectors (like the ones the hihats come with) a while back, their fast but costly .



I also do that with stranded. But I'm talking about non-insulated crimp stakons. You tape your joints up after you make them up.
Yea we also use wagos. Wire nuts too. Depends on the situation.


----------



## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

jwjrw said:


> I also do that with stranded. But I'm talking about non-insulated crimp stakons. You tape your joints up after you make them up.
> Yea we also use wagos. Wire nuts too. Depends on the situation.


I'm lost, crimps w/ the insulated caps. I've seen the Buchanan crimp sleezes with black rubber covers used in PA. simular item?


----------



## doubleoh7 (Dec 5, 2009)

I like tan twisters! Use your 10 way or nutdriver to really get a twist in em.


----------



## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Dude, I don't pretwist and I could hang my body weight on a splice, no worries. The wirenut would bust first.


Secondly, whoTF uses wirenuts? I be splicing on the device backstabbin!

If you get problems, turn out the lights, then bang on recepts and see which one lights up.

Low-voltage: if you use wirenuts, then you're an outsider fakin it til you make it.


----------



## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Remember that guy Brett Macon GA or whatever?

That guy still soldered everything. When I think pre-twist, I put y'all in the same boat as the solderers, way behind the times... :laughing:


----------



## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Shockdoc said:


> I'm lost, crimps w/ the insulated caps. I've seen the Buchanan crimp sleezes with black rubber covers used in PA. simular item?




We use these. A lot of guys in my area do.


http://www.idealindustries.com/products/wire_termination/terminals_crimps/crimp_connector_steel.jsp


----------



## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

jwjrw said:


> We use these. A lot of guys in my area do.
> 
> 
> http://www.idealindustries.com/products/wire_termination/terminals_crimps/crimp_connector_steel.jsp


 I used them for a period w/ the nylon caps. I can't find them anywhere out here in the metro NY area, would'nt mind using them again, they keep the wanna be trade helpers out of my splices.


----------



## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Shockdoc said:


> I used them for a period w/ the nylon caps. I can't find them anywhere out here in the metro NY area, would'nt mind using them again, they keep the wanna be trade helpers out of my splices.



And it's easier to cram wires in a box because they take up less room than wirenuts. I still use both. Really it depends on my mood and the situation.:laughing:


----------



## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

jwjrw said:


> We use these. A lot of guys in my area do.


Crimp sleeves? Only for the ground. And why would someone use them on the conductors? Super hard to rework or add anything.


----------



## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

miller_elex said:


> Crimp sleeves? Only for the ground. And why would someone use them on the conductors? Super hard to rework or add anything.






Not hard to add a wire at all. Well ok maybe for a union guy it would be.:laughing:


----------



## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

jwjrw said:


> Not hard to add a wire at all. Well ok maybe for a union guy it would be.:laughing:


I wired a sub division using the b crimps and nylon caps. I was unpopular with the HO's who chose to upgrade their fixtures themselves. guess they didn't like my pineapples and open dishes. :laughing:


----------



## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Shockdoc said:


> I wired a sub division using the b crimps and nylon caps. I was unpopular with the HO's who chose to upgrade their fixtures themselves. guess they didn't like my pineapples and open dishes. :laughing:



Thats why we only furnish can and uc lights. Maybe a fluorescent here and there.
Don't think I have seen b crimps or nylon caps. The ones we use say "stakon" on the box but I haven't really ever paid attention to what they are. I still use wire nuts to connect fixtures though.


----------



## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

jwjrw said:


> Not hard to add a wire at all. Well ok maybe for a union guy it would be.:laughing:


Laugh it up. I was a rat mutherfukker once too.


----------



## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

miller_elex said:


> Laugh it up. I was a rat mutherfukker once too.





http://www.myemoticons.com/images/animals/barnyard/rat.gif


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

miller_elex said:


> Laugh it up. I was a rat mutherfukker once too.


Aw don't listen to jw he ran out of material to use against me so he had to move on to an easier target, the union. :laughing:


----------



## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> Aw don't listen to jw he ran out of material to use against me so he had to move on to an easier target, the union. :laughing:



Not true....there is plenty of crap to nail you with....I just thought with B4T back I could slack off of you a bit..:laughing:


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> http://www.myemoticons.com/images/animals/barnyard/rat.gif


----------



## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> Your supposed to use the _insert image_ function not the _insert link_ function hack rat. :laughing:




Not if the purpose was to make you click the link.....:whistling2:


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> Not if the purpose was to make you click the link.....:whistling2:


see edit


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

This thread is dildos.


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

macmikeman said:


> This thread is dildos.


I'm sure Matt will be along shortly to apply the appropriate picture. :laughing:


----------



## doubleoh7 (Dec 5, 2009)

Jlarson said:


> I'm sure Matt will be along shortly to apply the appropriate picture. :laughing:


 
I got it.


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

doubleoh7 said:


> I got it.


Hum this one takes it up a notch. :thumbup::laughing:


----------



## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

For me if I use the wirenuts genrally pretwist on soild conductors but stranded naw I don't bother with that due it will lock up pretty good but for Choc blocks no I don't pretwist it at all.

Merci.
Marc

Here the photo of Choc block I am sure you have same item in North America area.


----------



## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

frenchelectrican said:


> For me if I use the wirenuts genrally pretwist on soild conductors but stranded naw I don't bother with that due it will lock up pretty good but for Choc blocks no I don't pretwist it at all.
> 
> Merci.
> Marc
> ...


Those look like the North American version.

The French type I saw looked quite different.


----------



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

macmikeman said:


> This thread is dildos.


It always is.


----------

