# customer wants to add 10 more PV panels



## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

FYI, the building/planning department is going to want someone to make sure the roof can handle the load, so don't forget about having the cost of an engineer built into the quote!


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## Bootss (Dec 30, 2011)

Switched said:


> FYI, the building/planning department is going to want someone to make sure the roof can handle the load, so don't forget about having the cost of an engineer built into the quote!


yes and apparently there was a roof inspectionbut I'm not sure about a engineer stamp or whatever.Looks like a 200 amp meter main but I'm trying to figure out where the main breaker is?Will this thing need an auxiliary panel?


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## Service Call (Jul 9, 2011)

Isn't that them at the bottom?


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## Bootss (Dec 30, 2011)

Service Call said:


> Isn't that them at the bottom?


I have to send one of my guys out this is a picture from the customer and I can't see that well..according to the customer the top breakers are the disconnect for the existing panels on the roof. 
Is that all there is a breaker that is used as the disconnect for the array above there's no grid tie device or anything? I have to find a good schematic I can look at , one that includes a PV array that ea. Panel have mini inverters in them then ties into the existing electrical system


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Switched said:


> FYI, the building/planning department is going to want someone to make sure the roof can handle the load, so don't forget about having the cost of an engineer built into the quote!


It's funny, panels and mounts weigh so little. But planning and zoning needs their funding stream.


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## Bootss (Dec 30, 2011)

backstay said:


> It's funny, panels and mounts weigh so little. But planning and zoning needs their funding stream.


Any comments regarding the questions on post number 5? Thanks


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

backstay said:


> It's funny, panels and mounts weigh so little. But planning and zoning needs their funding stream.


Yeah, but here they don't build things for snow loads... Heck, 6 months after they build a new house here the rafters are sagging!:laughing:

I've been in a number of states as a framer and electrician, Cali. seems to figure out how to build them cheaper on the material end than anyone, and it shows.


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## Bootss (Dec 30, 2011)

Lep said:


> yes and apparently there was a roof inspectionbut I'm not sure about a engineer stamp or whatever.Looks like a 200 amp meter main but I'm trying to figure out where the main breaker is?Will this thing need an auxiliary panel?


,I know if I get this job I'm going to have to write this contract to get the money up front to cover the panels.California has a 10% maximum down but it's easy to do that and then write in progress payment to cover the prices of the panels.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

You can request whatever deposit amount you want if you have a "Blanket Performance Bond" in place. 

Maybe you want to look into it?

http://www.cslb.ca.gov/Resources/LawsAndRegulations/CCR858_ApprovedFINALText_2011_11.pdf


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Lep said:


> Any comments regarding the questions on post number 5? Thanks


If the AHJ is fine with the backfeed breaker and the poco, your good. With micros, as soon as you pull the breaker, output stops, unless you have the kind that doesn't do that. I have installed inverters that can produce with no grid and no batteries. 705.12 is a good read to size the buss also. I know there was a tread about this before. Just make sure one of the 4 ways works for you.


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## Bootss (Dec 30, 2011)

Shouldn't there be a meter somewhere monitoring the output of the array?Looks like below the meter main there's a box of some sort, wonder what that's for? Think there's any other devices in this system may be in the garage?

I emailed the sales rep from AEE see if he can give me a little help ,if they don't help me out I'm going to a different supplier.I'm not really happy with their service although seems like they have a lot of training type of stuff. I think its just my particular Rep that sucks.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Not unless the poco requests a gross generation meter Lep....

~CS~


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Oh and Lep, speaking as the underqualified EC following the local PV guy around (who thinks i know all the codes) , watch the '14 changes , in particular maybe ask AEE>

*690.12 Rapid Shutdown of PV Systems on Buildings. *

My tail feathers still hurt.....~CS~:no:


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

N


Lep said:


> Shouldn't there be a meter somewhere monitoring the output of the array?Looks like below the meter main there's a box of some sort, wonder what that's for? Think there's any other devices in this system may be in the garage?
> 
> I emailed the sales rep from AEE see if he can give me a little help ,if they don't help me out I'm going to a different supplier.I'm not really happy with their service although seems like they have a lot of training type of stuff. I think its just my particular Rep that sucks.


Around here the main meter is bidirectional. Customers pay $400 for it and what ever they don't use goes to the utility. Some places monitor total output for rebate purposes, but not here.

AEE isn't my source for design help, just parts. Sometimes you have to do this stuff to figure out how. It's going to cost you to learn. I'm building a demonstration setup for an event this summer. Panels, pole mount, charge controller, inverter and batteries. It's going to cost me a few thousand. Nothing is free. Have you built any solar systems yet? Maybe one at home first.


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## Bootss (Dec 30, 2011)

Every other service truck around here is a solar truck ,we'll give it a shot.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

backstay said:


> It's going to cost you to learn. .


Kemosahbee speak truth...:thumbsup:


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## Longterm (Aug 18, 2011)

You can pretty much replicate what they have. Each micro inverter is connected to a trunk line and feeds back to the 2p 20 breaker. Be careful and read up on all codes. Panels can only be back fed up to 20% of the bus bar rating. For example a 200A panel with a bus bar rating of 200 amps can only receive 40 amps of back feed. A 200A panel with a bus bar rating of 225A will allow a max of 45 amps of Back feed. Please do some research, take a class and good luck.


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

Lep said:


> I have to send one of my guys out this is a picture from the customer and I can't see that well..according to the customer the top breakers are the disconnect for the existing panels on the roof.
> Is that all there is a breaker that is used as the disconnect for the array above there's no grid tie device or anything? I have to find a good schematic I can look at , one that includes a PV array that ea. Panel have mini inverters in them then ties into the existing electrical system


"The panels have 'mini inverters' in them"? How do they sync up? That don't sound right.:001_huh:


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## Longterm (Aug 18, 2011)

"Is that all there is a breaker that is used as the disconnect for the array above there's no grid tie device or anything? I have to find a good schematic I can look at , one that includes a PV array that ea. Panel have mini inverters in them then ties into the existing electrical system[/QUOTE]

Yes, for micro inverters. Each Panel has its own micro inverter and it changes it to AC at the panel then it is connected to a trunk line that runs back to the 2 pole 20 breaker and back feeds onto the bus bar.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Longterm said:


> You can pretty much replicate what they have. Each micro inverter is connected to a trunk line and feeds back to the 2p 20 breaker. Be careful and read up on all codes. Panels can only be back fed up to 20% of the bus bar rating. For example a 200A panel with a bus bar rating of 200 amps can only receive 40 amps of back feed. A 200A panel with a bus bar rating of 225A will allow a max of 45 amps of Back feed. Please do some research, take a class and good luck.


If like to see the code ref for this 20% max feed through a panel.


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## Longterm (Aug 18, 2011)

The 120% Rule
Section 705.12(D)(2) states that the sum of breakers supplying power to a busbar or conductor must not exceed 120% of the busbar or conductor’s rating. Both the overcurrent protection device (OCPD) between the grid and the service panel (typically the main AC breaker) and the OCPD from the inverter(s) are considered power supplies.*

For example, an AC service panel with a 200 A main breaker and a 200 amp-rated busbar could have up to 40 A of inverter output-circuit OCPDs installed (200 A + 40 A ≤ 200 A × 1.2). Since Sections 705.60 and 690.8 require that the minimum inverter output-circuit OCPD be 125% of the inverter’s rated maximum output current, the inverter or inverters in this example could have a total maximum rated output current of 32 A (40 A ÷ 1.25 = 32 A).

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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

705.12(D)(2) is "Feeder Tap Ampere Rating"


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## Longterm (Aug 18, 2011)

Keep reading please 705.12 (D)(2)(3)(C)

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## Longterm (Aug 18, 2011)

Longterm said:


> Keep reading please 705.12 (D)(2)(3)(C)
> 
> Sent from my C811 4G using Tapatalk


(D)(2)(3)(B)

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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

You never go to (C), I wonder why? Your stuck on loaded busses at 120%. Maybe you should read all of 705.12(3) If you look at (C), and only use 100% of buss rating, you can add the breakers up excluding main. I've been down this road before with you. Only taking part of the code to get an answer that fits your argument isn't sound.


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## Longterm (Aug 18, 2011)

Theres no argument here. You asked where it was. I showed you. Sorry your getting frustrated. I was simply trying to point the man in the right direction. I don't come to this board looking for arguments. 

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## Journeymanjoe (Aug 19, 2011)

backstay said:


> You never go to (C), I wonder why? Your stuck on loaded busses at 120%. Maybe you should read all of 705.12(3) If you look at (C), and only use 100% of buss rating, you can add the breakers up excluding main. I've been down this road before with you. Only taking part of the code to get an answer that fits your argument isn't sound.


Backstay, you might want to read 705.12(C); this installation doesn't meet the requirements of 705.12(C) (even with adding double the number of panels they wouldn't be over the 100 kW! Longterm selected the correct Section for the information given to us.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Journeymanjoe said:


> Backstay, you might want to read 705.12(C); this installation doesn't meet the requirements of 705.12(C) (even with adding double the number of panels they wouldn't be over the 100 kW! Longterm selected the correct Section for the information given to us.


You might want to read 705.12 

"The output of an interconnected electric power source shall be connected as specified in 704.12(A), (B), (C), or (D)

That means you use one of the 4. Then you look at 705.12 (D) because it's an utility interactive inverter. In that article you get 705.12(D)(3) which is buss bar rating. In there you find 4 ways to size the buss 705.12(D)(2)(3), (a), (b), (c), or (d)


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Journeymanjoe said:


> Backstay, you might want to read 705.12(C); this installation doesn't meet the requirements of 705.12(C) (even with adding double the number of panels they wouldn't be over the 100 kW! Longterm selected the correct Section for the information given to us.


We're talking about buss ratings of interactive inverters 705.12(D) not the point of connection.


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## Journeymanjoe (Aug 19, 2011)

backstay said:


> We're talking about buss ratings of interactive inverters 705.12(D) not the point of connection.


I agree, that is why I agreed with Longterm; your description sounded like you were referring to 705.12(C). So, you meant to say 705.12(D)(2)(3)(c)? It would be easier to follow your train of thought if you use the correct section numbers and letters (should be lower case "(c)" not an upper case).:detective:


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Journeymanjoe said:


> Backstay, you might want to read 705.12(C); this installation doesn't meet the requirements of 705.12(C) (even with adding double the number of panels they wouldn't be over the 100 kW! Longterm selected the correct Section for the information given to us.


We're talking about buss ratings of interactive inverters 705.12(D) not the point of connection. The first two are using buss rating plus 20%. The third is using the buss at 100% and the forth is with engineering.


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## teejayshelton (Feb 25, 2016)

OP did you get this sorted or are you still working on it. 
FWIW Longterm is correct. 
120% of a bus.
You asked about the breaker tie in.
This is typical of most residential systems. Most, not all utilities do not require a second meter or a knife disconnect. Every utility company I have dealt with requires a visibly open disconnecting means. On a residence they allow the meter socket to serve this requirement. Unless a residence has a bolt on or remote CT type meter where they cant just pull it to have a visible open most will allow this. 
There are a couple of exceptions to this rule where we operate. 
Out of the approximately 20 jurisdictions we operate in there are 2 with smaller utility companies who require a generation meter and a knife disconnect regardless of a visibly open meter. Both of these companies handbooks were written by the same person I believe. They require a 200A meter socket even if your only pushing 32 back. First time I installed in their area years ago I missed that and they made me change my 125(carrying 32 max) to a 200.

Your jurisdiction stance is already clear as you have a breaker without a disconnect or meter as a tie in on the current system. Something for you to look into before you commit is the required real estate. The interpretation each AHJ has regarding the fire setback varies greatly. I would stick with the same manufacturer of whatever the existing inverters are. Are they Enphase? Aurora? The reason I say this is because you would likely prefer to tie into their existing communications system. You may run into issues with you voiding the existing warranty and "buying" it if you utilize any of the existing systems equipment though.


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## Bootss (Dec 30, 2011)

Longterm said:


> "Is that all there is a breaker that is used as the disconnect for the array above there's no grid tie device or anything? I have to find a good schematic I can look at , one that includes a PV array that ea. Panel have mini inverters in them then ties into the existing electrical system


Yes, for micro inverters. Each Panel has its own micro inverter and it changes it to AC at the panel then it is connected to a trunk line that runs back to the 2 pole 20 breaker and back feeds onto the bus bar.[/QUOTE]

that's all that is used is a 2 -p breaker 20 amp.
I bid this between $13k and $15 K,using en- phase 250 inverters,10-285 watt panels but didn't get it.

To me I like the microinverters better for some reason I have to understand the panel buss rating issues 

The customer said he bought the system from somebody else under $4 per watt not sure if I believe him or not.

That's what I'm more interested in what you can sell the systems for per watt.
Seems like you should be able to pick up a few extra panel upgrades doing these systems also.

I have a big window in the back of my truck I'm going to stick a solar sign in the back with my phone number see what happens. (then my phone will blow up)
Lol !



this was the panel at the job site I never saw itI guess it 200 amp?
(So rule of thumb is 20% over panel rating or is there questions about this )

What is the max watt pv system you can add for 200 amp panels?


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## teejayshelton (Feb 25, 2016)

If the panel has an end fed main and you want to tie in with a breaker then yes. 20% over the buss rating. So 40 amps max in that panel (assuming the buss is 200 and not 225) unless you reduce the main. Drop the main to a 175 then you could slap a 60 in it. Etc etc. 

If using M-250 your max inverter per 20a circuit is 16. 

You should check out solar edge. Less parts, cheaper by far once installed. Depending on your pricing and avilabilty good chance it is cheaper even without considering the labor. Starts at 5v vs 20(enphase) so only 1/3 of the module has to be in the clear vs 2/3. You don't have to buy an envoy and they don't charge extra for module level monitoring. The modules are transmitting at a nominal 350v so on longer runs you have more pressure to keep your wire costs down. Only downside imo is if your doing all attic runs you can't use romex with solar edge until you hit the inverter. 

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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

teejayshelton said:


> If the panel has an end fed main and you want to tie in with a breaker then yes. 20% over the buss rating. So 40 amps max in that panel (assuming the buss is 200 and not 225) unless you reduce the main. Drop the main to a 175 then you could slap a 60 in it. Etc etc.
> 
> If using M-250 your max inverter per 20a circuit is 16.
> 
> ...


So this panel has a 200 amp main breaker. And you have no other breakers coming off the buss. You say you can only put a 40 amp solar back feed breaker in? What if I want to only use 100% buss rating, then how big a breaker can I back feed?


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## teejayshelton (Feb 25, 2016)

Oh it is a silly rule for the most part. I argued it with inspectors and plan checkers a lot early on. I caved. To strictly adhere to code and using this as a breaker fed system (key here is breaker fed). I believe the smallest UL listed main you will be able to find for this service is a 150. Notice it is a 4 space 2 pole. 
So 200*1.2 = 240
240- 150 main = 90 amps available for solar. 
Above is again assuming that the buss has a 200 not a 225 rating. 

The solar feed in breaker must be located on the far end of the bus from the main. 
Their logic here is spreading the source of the over driven bus.
At no point in this bus could you potentially draw more than 100% of its rating. Max load breaker you can buy for this is probably a 125. Maybe a 150 on a single full size space per pole. (They may sell (square d does) a breaker similar to that main for getting a full 200 A sub feed out of it but that is parallel connections to the bus. Theoretically drawing equal amounts so 100 per full size space. ) If this were in a commercial/industrial environment they may give you more wiggle room but on a residence they plan for the worst. If you wanted to use more than 120% of the bus on a residence they may allow you to remove the other breaker stabs or weld the dead front so there was only room for your breakers and warning label the snot out of it. 

They are planning for a worst case where Joe homeowner moves the Solar breaker close to the main. Slaps in 4 100 amp breakers on the far side of the bus and he and his buddies have a marathon welding session and are now able to pull 120% across the bus. 

Again when I first started doing solar I argued this with the jurisdictions I operate in because I disagreed with their interpretation and argued that with the spread breakers it was not possible to ever draw over 100% even if I fed 200 solar from the bottom and a 200 main from the top. I had most of them tell me they might consider that in a facility with a dedicated maintenance staff but never a residence. I had a couple of guys let me weld the dead front or cut stabs (dedicated pv combiner panels) but decided it wasn't worth the fight vs just operating in a capacity they were happy with. There are other ways too. Again the key here is breaker fed. You can save yourself a lot of over sizing in some cases by losing the breaker from the equation. Sorry if the above is not well worded or there are mistakes. Making breakfast/coffee while typing up a response before I head to work. 

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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

teejayshelton said:


> Oh it is a silly rule for the most part. I argued it with inspectors and plan checkers a lot early on. I caved. To strictly adhere to code and using this as a breaker fed system (key here is breaker fed). I believe the smallest UL listed main you will be able to find for this service is a 150. Notice it is a 4 space 2 pole.
> So 200*1.2 = 240
> 240- 150 main = 90 amps available for solar.
> Above is again assuming that the buss has a 200 not a 225 rating.
> ...


You can only put the solar feed breaker at the far end of the buss? You need to study the buss rating article again. There are four ways to calculate the buss rating, not one.


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## Bootss (Dec 30, 2011)

Is there a solar book that addresses the "buss sizing issues " or just code books.


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## teejayshelton (Feb 25, 2016)

Calfornia has a solar permitting handbook. It's a free download. There are a ton of training slides available too. As far as me needing to study the article again... I am plenty profitable operating within the understanding I and every AHJ I work in have.  

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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Rate the buss at 100% and all this foolery is done with. I never rate my buss over 100%. I've never failed an inspection. And in twenty years, never had a failure.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Lep said:


> Is there a solar book that addresses the "buss sizing issues " or just code books.



Try this.


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## teejayshelton (Feb 25, 2016)

backstay said:


> Rate the buss at 100% and all this foolery is done with. I never rate my buss over 100%. I've never failed an inspection. And in twenty years, never had a failure.


But this is more limiting... the sum of your main and your solar can only equal 100% of the bus. We do this as well. But why not take advantage of the extra 20% code allows when it will save you a breaker reduction or a buss oversizing. In your case the breaker can be anywhere but there are many times you can save money by moving the breakers as needed. Foolery? My aren't we full of ourselves lol. You are taking a more conservative approach to the code than it allows. Why? Do you like to spend money when you don't need to?


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## teejayshelton (Feb 25, 2016)

Lets take a typical 2400 square foot home with a 200A Service with a 200A main. Lets say you wanted to throw a 7 kwac system on this house. To use your "method that needs to be investigated" I would have to load calc the house down to a 150A main to be able to install my 40A breaker. So I have to do load calcs. no big deal. Mike Holt has a free resi calc spread sheet. Now I have to spend a couple hundred(maybe 3-400 even) on a main breaker. Now I can stay at under 100% of the buss and put my breaker wherever I want......

That is the expensive uninformed way... 

OR you could put the breaker at the far end of the buss from the main and value your panel at 120% slap in the same 2p40 you had to buy for the above method too and you are done with less time and expense .


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## teejayshelton (Feb 25, 2016)

backstay said:


> Rate the buss at 100% and all this foolery is done with. I never rate my buss over 100%. I've never failed an inspection. And in twenty years, never had a failure.


I have been doing this for 30+ years. Close to 1000 PV systems under my belt designed by me both on and off grid. Some small 250kw commercial but mostly residential. We rarely fail an inspection (I have 20 installers) and when we do it has nothing to do with the design but more of one of my guys forgot a label etc stuff. Up until 2008 I was running most of the residential I drew as I only had 1 job a week but as we grew I used tools less and less. I ran our first couple of commercial jobs just to establish a precedence with the installers. Now I rarely have time wear tools.

And +1 on Mike Holts stuff. He has a ton of great resources.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

teejayshelton said:


> But this is more limiting... the sum of your main and your solar can only equal 100% of the bus. We do this as well. But why not take advantage of the extra 20% code allows when it will save you a breaker reduction or a buss oversizing. In your case the breaker can be anywhere but there are many times you can save money by moving the breakers as needed. Foolery? My aren't we full of ourselves lol. You are taking a more conservative approach to the code than it allows. Why? Do you like to spend money when you don't need to?


You really need to read the article. You don't include the main when you use the buss at 100%. Name calling, really? You can rate the buss any of the four ways the NEC allows. I'm trying to point out one that some have seemed to overlook. If that makes me "full of myself" so be it.


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## teejayshelton (Feb 25, 2016)

backstay said:


> You really need to read the article. You don't include the main when you use the buss at 100%. Name calling, really? You can rate the buss any of the four ways the NEC allows. I'm trying to point out one that some have seemed to overlook. If that makes me "full of myself" so be it.


You called the proper way to approach this *in the OP's jurisdiction *"foolery" and I said you were full of yourself. IE You value your own opinions very highly.
No name calling. Just facts.

California (where OP is from) has a permitting guide book for the state. see attached snip from the current version (2015). Also California has its own electric code. We are currently operating on 2013 code and it is based on 2011 NEC but is its own code so some things may be adopted and others not. The state just approved 2016 but none of the Local AHJ are there yet. 

Page 58 of the California solar permitting handbook is inspector instructions and the following is a quote copied from it:

16. Inverter output circuit breaker is located at opposite end of bus from utility supply at load center and/or service panelboard (not required if the sum of the *inverter and utility supply circuit breakers is less than or
equal to the panelboard bus rating*).

I linked the handbook. 

Next is a link to prove your case may work in your jurisdiction but it will not work for the OP






Jump to 53:04 To Cover 705.12(D)(2)(3)
Both a and b are acceptable anywhere in California currently.
c is a no go.
Depending on AHJ they may let you play with d. 
Visalia has you run numbers on loads.
In the city of Fresno they will allow 120% on a center fed regardless.
In the city of Clovis will only allow 100% on a center fed. 
*Again this is utility + PV Over current protection.*

Also we have to use the over current device still not 125% of the sum of inverter output so we lose there as well. 

As I said from the beginning I don't agree with all of the rules however I do adhere to them. I have been able to argue my way into getting a 100% rating out of some AHJ in the manner you are however they made me disable all other slots in the dedicated panel I was installing. They then allowed me to treat it as a dedicated solar "disconnect" instead of a panel. Disconnect here always are allowed to be at 100% being as there is not (simple homeowner method) easy possibility to add load/source.

I understand your method may be great in your area. Hopefully once we have 2016 released and AHJ's start to adopt it we will be able to use it too. This still isn't going to save us on most residential services as the sum of the breakers in the service will be over the limit. It will save us some money on our dedicated sub panels we are installing but in the majority of installs once we hit the service we will still be back at 120% unless we go line side. 

Apologies for the offense I over reacted to my being offended(one of many bad habits of mine).

Handbook was too large for forum please follow link
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B79s050zZShVY2NvRGItQld1dHc&usp=sharing


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

teejayshelton said:


> You called the proper way to approach this *in the OP's jurisdiction *"foolery" and I said you were full of yourself. IE You value your own opinions very highly.
> No name calling. Just facts.
> 
> California (where OP is from) has a permitting guide book for the state. see attached snip from the current version (2015). Also California has its own electric code. We are currently operating on 2013 code and it is based on 2011 NEC but is its own code so some things may be adopted and others not. The state just approved 2016 but none of the Local AHJ are there yet.
> ...


From the beginning of this thread I only tried to point out the four ways the NEC allows buss rating. I can't speak on CA's rules or any other state but mine. Here in MN, the state takes the NEC without changes. So that's where I'm coming from. With that said, many replies said that excluding the main was not possible, but it is, according to the NEC.


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