# Violation or not?



## BurtiElectric

Can you use 1/2 inch two screw nm connectors to secure a Romeo in a plastic smart box? This question came up on a job I'm taking over and I don't know the answer. Any help is appreciated


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## BuzzKill

no offense but can you be a little more clear?


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## BurtiElectric

BuzzKill said:


> no offense but can you be a little more clear?


None taken. The guy who started this rewire job used plastic smart boxes the ones that mount with two Sheetrock screws through the sides. Where he brought the Romeo into the box was through the 1/2 inch KO in the top and instead of using a plastic button connector, he used a metal nm connector. Are two screw nm connectors listed for plastic ko's?


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## B4T

What is a Romeo.. :blink::blink:


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## BuzzKill

BurtiElectric said:


> None taken. The guy who started this rewire job used plastic smart boxes the ones that mount with two Sheetrock screws through the sides. Where he brought the Romeo into the box was through the 1/2 inch KO in the top and instead of using a plastic button connector, he used a metal nm connector. Are two screw nm connectors listed for plastic ko's?


ahaa...thanks. Uhm....don't know. An inspector might want it bonded! I did a service using shed 40 pvc and used a metal cap at the top and he nearly made me bond it. How many are on the job? Are devices made up yet?


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## BuzzKill

B4T said:


> What is a Romeo.. :blink::blink:


romex I imagine.


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## BurtiElectric

B4T said:


> What is a Romeo.. :blink::blink:


Romex that was autocorrect


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## BurtiElectric

BuzzKill said:


> ahaa...thanks. Uhm....don't know. An inspector might want it bonded! I did a service using shed 40 pvc and used a metal cap at the top and he nearly made me bond it. How many are on the job? Are devices made up yet?


Just roughed in, there are 15 done this way


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## BuzzKill

BurtiElectric said:


> Just roughed in, there are 15 done this way


eh, change 'em out.


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## BurtiElectric

BuzzKill said:


> eh, change 'em out.


Thanks, I'm going to


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## B4T

I looked a Steel City romex connectors and no specs on what material boxes they are rated for...


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## 220/221

BuzzKill said:


> eh, change 'em out.


eh, leave em.


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## Jbird66

When ever I take over a job if its not they way I would have done it from the start I rip it out.

I would have taken the boxes out also!

Your name is going on it now.


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## BurtiElectric

Jbird66 said:


> When ever I take over a job if its not they way I would have done it from the start I rip it out.
> 
> I would have taken the boxes out also!
> 
> Your name is going on it now.


Haven't started it yet, I just looked at it today.


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## Awg-Dawg

Jbird66 said:


> When ever I take over a job if its not they way I would have done it from the start I rip it out.


 
Cmon, thats not really true.:no:


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## B4T

BurtiElectric said:


> Haven't started it yet, I just looked at it today.


Give it the weekend to hear from some of the others here who might know where to find the answer..


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## BuzzKill

B4T said:


> Give it the weekend to hear from some of the others here who might know where to find the answer..


I think 220 called it, BUT, he'll get an inspector that will want it bonded I bet!


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## BurtiElectric

BuzzKill said:


> I think 220 called it, BUT, he'll get an inspector that will want it bonded I bet!


Better question, is there a compliant way to even bond it?


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## BuzzKill

BurtiElectric said:


> Better question, is there a compliant way to even bond it?


seriously doubt it


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## Big John

Romex, Romex! Where for art thou Romex!

...Damn auto-correct!

EDIT: And in the interest of contributing something useful, while it doesn't address it directly, 250.86 _Exception 2_ seems to suggest this would be legal: A metal connector supporting a cable is certainly much less material to be energized than a sleeve or an enclosure.


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## B4T

This might use the same logic as Article 680.. just a shot in the dark.. 

(5) Metal Fittings. All metal ﬁttings within or attached to
the pool structure shall be bonded. Isolated parts that are
not over 100 mm (4 in.) in any dimension and do not
penetrate into the pool structure more than 25 mm (1 in.)
shall not require bonding.


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## BuzzKill

B4T said:


> This might use the same logic as Article 680.. just a shot in the dark..
> 
> (5) Metal Fittings. All metal ﬁttings within or attached to
> the pool structure shall be bonded. Isolated parts that are
> not over 100 mm (4 in.) in any dimension and do not
> penetrate into the pool structure more than 25 mm (1 in.)
> shall not require bonding.


that's a reach...a big one: this ain't no pool.


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## B4T

BuzzKill said:


> that's a reach...a big one: this ain't no pool.


Try thinking outside the box.. 

I said it might be the same *LOGIC* about having parts bonded.. 

Wiring for a swimming pool is the most comprehensive we have to follow on a daily basis....

*IF* having small parts not bonded together is OK for swimming pools.. I can't see how it would be a violation in this case..


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## BuzzKill

can I mention the previously unmentionable?


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## BurtiElectric

BuzzKill said:


> seriously doubt it


What about if ran mc ap cable to it wouldn't that bond it? I never would, just throwing it out there


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## drspec

I wouldn't stress one bit about using the metal 3/8" nm connectors in the plastic box. Get the inspection and move on. The plastic snap ins never sit tight in those boxes anyways, even though theyre made by the same company and sold together.


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## don_resqcapt19

250.4(A)(3) Bonding of Electrical Equipment. Normally non–current-carrying conductive materials enclosing electrical conductors or equipment, or forming part of such equipment, shall be connected together and to the electrical supply source in a manner that establishes an effective groundfault current path.


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## Matt Hermanson

250.4 has several requirements that call for the non-current carrying metallic poarts to be bonded and grounded.

250.86 Exp 2 talks about enclosures and raceways. A metallic two-screw romex strain relief is neither.

314.3 allows for metalic raceways and metallic armor to teminate in non-metallic boxes only when certain bonding provisions occur as described in the exceptions.

So, based upon my quick run through the code book, it looks like you might be allowed to use metallic, two-screw romex clamps in a non-metallic box IF you also bonded those clamps to the equipment grounding conductor with a bonding lock nut.

With the Arlington Black Buttons so low of cost compared to bonding lock nuts and the fact that the two-screw connectors can penetrate the sheath of today's romex products, the two-screw connectors need to come out and replaced with Black Buttons.


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## Big John

Matt Hermanson said:


> ...250.86 Exp 2 talks about enclosures and raceways. A metallic two-screw romex strain relief is neither....


 So a metal sleeve can connect to a plastic junction box without bonding, but if I put a metal connector on the same box, it must be bonded?

That section many not explicitly discuss fittings, but I have trouble seeing how the same logic would not apply to them.


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## Matt Hermanson

Big John said:


> So a metal sleeve can connect to a plastic junction box without bonding, but if I put a metal connector on the same box, it must be bonded?
> 
> That section many not explicitly discuss fittings, but I have trouble seeing how the same logic would not apply to them.


I'm not getting into the "logic" here. I was just pointing out what the differnet code sections said. It looks like 250.4 is enough to trigger needing to bond the 2 screw connectors.


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## denny3992

BurtiElectric said:


> Better question, is there a compliant way to even bond it?












It would suck, but yes there is!


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## dielectricunion

is say rip it all out and run it in EMT


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## Matt Hermanson

Big John said:


> So a metal sleeve can connect to a plastic junction box without bonding, but if I put a metal connector on the same box, it must be bonded?
> 
> That section many not explicitly discuss fittings, but I have trouble seeing how the same logic would not apply to them.


 
I should have looked closer at your response the first time. No, the metallic raceway must also be bonded. See NEC 314.3, Exp 1.

The concept here is anything metallic must be bonded. And if you don't use a metallic box, you must employ some other method of bonding the raceway(s) and/or fitting(s).


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## Matt Hermanson

denny3992 said:


> View attachment 21076
> 
> 
> It would suck, but yes there is!


FYI: But that is not a split bonding bushing. It is a plain old bonding bushing. The split ones can be installed after the wire has been installed.

A bonding lock nut is also made by several manufacturers. Just imagine a lock nut that has a lug on it.

So either the bonding bushing or the bonding lock nut could be used. I can't think of a third option. Can anyone think of something else that I might have overlooked?


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## Shockdoc

I try to keep plastic systems all plastic and use a blacky connector.


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## Big John

Matt Hermanson said:


> I should have looked closer at your response the first time. No, the metallic raceway must also be bonded. See NEC 314.3, Exp 1.
> 
> The concept here is anything metallic must be bonded. And if you don't use a metallic box, you must employ some other method of bonding the raceway(s) and/or fitting(s).


 It appears to me that 250.86 supersedes that because it is offering circumstances when you are specifically permitted not to bond metal equipment when used with non-metallic wiring methods.

I will grant that I don't see a specific exception for fittings, and that it could be considered a violation as written. But for reasons I've already explained, I think that would be a ridiculous violation to cite.


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## BBQ

Big John said:


> It appears to me that 250.86 supersedes that because it is offering circumstances when you are specifically permitted not to bond metal equipment when used with non-metallic wiring methods.


I disagree, I would say 314 is the controlling section ........ if not section 314.3 is a waste of ink.


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## Big John

BBQ said:


> I disagree, I would say 314 is the controlling section ........ if not section 314.3 is a waste of ink.


 Seems like that could go both ways then: If 314.3 is dominant, then the exceptions in 250.86 would never legally apply and serve no purpose.

I read it that if you don't fall into the limited exceptions permitted by 250.86, _then_ you must comply with the overall provisions of 314.3.


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## Magnettica

Can the romex connector become energized? 

Then yes, it must be bonded to the system ground.


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## Matt Hermanson

Shockdoc said:


> I try to keep plastic systems all plastic and use a blacky connector.


That would be a good habit.


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## Matt Hermanson

Big John said:


> It appears to me that 250.86 supersedes that because it is offering circumstances when you are specifically permitted not to bond metal equipment when used with non-metallic wiring methods.
> 
> I will grant that I don't see a specific exception for fittings, and that it could be considered a violation as written. But for reasons I've already explained, I think that would be a ridiculous violation to cite.


250.86 starts off with all raceways and enclosures that are metallic shall be connected to the equipment grounding conductor.

Then exp 1 allows for not grounding metallic raceways and enclosures when added to existing knob and tube installations. When, among other things, you have no equipment grounding conductor present.

Then exp 2 allows "short" sections used for guarding cable assemblies to not be grounded. Think about a metallic sleeve used for protection through a floor assembly, etc.

Then exp 3 allows metallic elbows used in non-metallic raceway installations that are at least 18 inches under ground, under concrete, etc. to not be grounded. Think of the metallic elbows used with non-metallic raceway installs for high voltage. The pull strings can scar the inside of a PVC elbow. And that scar can damage the high voltage cable. Then we get that four letter word called boom.

So when you get to 314.3, we are now talking specifically about the use of non-metallic boxes. And only with the exceptions are you allowed to have any metallic raceway or fittings attached to that non-metallic box. And both exceptions describe means of bonding what metallic parts or raceways are there.

So 250.86 and 314.3 really have no conflicts with each other.

I hope this helps.


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## Knightryder12

Magnettica said:


> Can the romex connector become energized?
> 
> Then yes, it must be bonded to the system ground.


But 250.86 Exception 1 (3) states _"Are free from probable contact with ground, grounded metal, metal lath, or conductive material and (4) Are guarded against contact by persons_..... Then it does not need to be bonded.
I would say that a romex connector behind sheet rock would comply with that.


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## macmikeman

The best connector for the use by a wide margin is not the black nm connector but the yellow one from arlington. The sheath of the cable usually gets ripped with the black plastic nm connectors, those things pinch the cables too tight, while the yellow ones just grip it. 

The single gang Smart Boxes I use do not have any round knockouts, they just have punch out built in romex grips located on top and on the bottom of the box. Not familiar with Smart boxes that have 1/2" or 3/4" ko's in them. 
Did your co-worker punch his own holes in the boxes? Listed for that?


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## Hackster

The Arlington OneBox has 1/2" KO's and used to come with a single black button connector. Now it's comes with 2 button connectors and a black plastic KO seal.

Arlington makes the black button connectors too, I haven't see the yellows in years. I agree that the black button connectors damage the insulation.


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