# where is the union headed?



## Ryan kercenneck (Dec 26, 2010)

I am only a first year apprentice but my curioisity has me wondering. There is alot of talk in Akron Ohio that cw's and ce's are going to push out the journeyman wireman. I'm just curious to see what some of the veterans and long time members have to say about this. Did we peak as a union as far as our wages, and our share of the market that we control? Are we going to have to give up the money that you all worked so hard to get just to work?


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Right off the bat, if you want to bicker and have a useless back and forth argument where NO ONE is going to change their mind, there is this existing active thread: http://www.electriciantalk.com/f26/unions-20142/

Other than that let this thread stay civil and on topic please.


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## 2phase5wire (Jan 9, 2011)

> *Ryan kercenneck;368977]*I am only a first year apprentice but my curioisity has me wondering. There is alot of talk in Akron Ohio that cw's and ce's are going to push out the journeyman wireman. I'm just curious to see what some of the veterans and long time members have to say about this.


I'm not a fan of the CE/CW program but it looks like it's becoming a reality for most of the IBEW.

Here's my suggestion to you. Concentrate on your studies and work on becoming a REAL Journeyman. To many so-called J-Man exist by title only. There is always gonna be a need for highly skilled electricians.



> Did we peak as a union as far as our wages,


Probably.



> and our share of the market that we control?


That peeked a LONG time ago.



> Are we going to have to give up the money that you all worked so hard to get just to work


Some will. Try to stay out of that group.


Your young. Stay away from the "good ole' boys", keep your mouth shut and perfect your craft. That should be your goal for the next 10 years anyway. 

Take it from me, the politics will quickly drain your energy.


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## Charlie K (Aug 14, 2008)

Ryan, you asked if the CE/CW was going to put the unions out. I dont think they will hurt us too bad. Guys are complaining that it will kill the A journeyman, it wont. The CE/CW's are needed to help us compete in a tough economy. In the 80's they came out with the r card, guys complained and were worried about the future. We are still here. Then came the ij program in the 90's, same thing happened. We are in a tough economy right now and every little bit helps. CE/CW's can only be used on certain jobs, you need to find this out from your local as it varies. My best advice to you is learn all you can in school. Attend your Union meetings and get active. It is your Union. In 31 years I have not given up any wages or benefits. We have had to sacrifice somethings but they returned when the economy did.

Charlie


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## Ryan kercenneck (Dec 26, 2010)

Speedy pety: I don't mean and am not bickering but I only know what I hear. I haven't been around long enough to form my own opinion just looking for different areas of the US to see what they thought. I am so thankful to be a union inside wireman apprentice, and there is nowhere else I would rather work. I am trying to learn as much as possible to try to stay employable but I hear alot of doom and gloom. I have a long carreer ahead of me, the ce and cw cocept is just beeing introduced to my local recently, I know it has been around for a while now I was just curious if it affected jw's in a negative way. Thank you for all you opinions to those who replied.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Ryan, I did not direct that to you. 
It seems every thread started about the union, regardless of topic, ends up a for/against argument with no one ever changing their views.


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## s.kelly (Mar 20, 2009)

2phase (not as easy to shorten as the old one!) has some good advice,and it sounds like you have the right idea. Keep learning, be one of the best and you will not have to worry (at least in the long term).

And if you see what Charlie K says there has been doom and gloom before and will be more later.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

There are quite a few worthless JW's I'd love to see take a pay cut. Alright, there's a whole lot.

Like they say, you can sheet in one hand and wish in the other.... Way more crappy JW's out there than good ones.

It won't ever happen, and the best electricians are the ones with the biggest mouths who are always upsetting the higher-ups. You're better off being a lesser electrician who knows how to bend over and not make any waves. :thumbup:


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## Rockyd (Apr 22, 2007)

miller_elex said:


> There are quite a few worthless JW's I'd love to see take a pay cut. Alright, there's a whole lot.
> 
> Like they say, you can sheet in one hand and wish in the other.... Way more crappy JW's out there than good ones.
> 
> It won't ever happen, and the best electricians are the ones with the biggest mouths who are always upsetting the higher-ups. You're better off being a lesser electrician who knows how to bend over and not make any waves. :thumbup:


_______________________________________________________________

You been following me??? Couple of trouble makers like us? Hell might as well retire right now...no one will have us (to much back bone, and a disconnect that fails to trip the jaw bone....) for projects....


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## blusolstice (Sep 17, 2010)

Rockyd said:


> _______________________________________________________________
> 
> You been following me??? Couple of trouble makers like us? Hell might as well retire right now...no one will have us (to much back bone, and a disconnect that fails to trip the jaw bone....) for projects....


i was mouthy as an apprentice lol...was laid off 5 days after i turned out hahaha.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

The economy will decide if wages have peaked or not, if and when this turns around there is a boom wages will go up. All about supply and demand, then all those CE/Cw's will become JWs to fill the void, and some will be good electrician and some will be slackers, just like some JW's.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

Speedy Petey said:


> Right off the bat, if you want to bicker and have a useless back and forth argument where NO ONE is going to change their mind, there is this existing active thread: http://www.electriciantalk.com/f26/unions-20142/
> 
> Other than that let this thread stay civil and on topic please.



The guy asked a legitimate question. Opinions are different about the Union and that's fine but it seems the moderators are always acting like mom and dad on this subject and others. This the internet and a forum for discussion seems like you guys are getting out of hand with closing forums and trying to control the content. I just seen where they closed the ground up or down thread in off topic. For what? It's kinda taking the fun out of it. I don't know just my opinion.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Loose Neutral said:


> The guy asked a legitimate question. Opinions are different about the Union and that's fine but it seems the moderators are always acting like mom and dad on this subject and others. This the internet and a forum for discussion seems like you guys are getting out of hand with closing forums and trying to control the content. I just seen where they closed the ground up or down thread in off topic. For what? It's kinda taking the fun out of it. I don't know just my opinion.


Only because this topic can get contentious, and I would think his POLITE warning was to head off the verbal kick boxing early, MAYBE the thread will remain on topic without all the bickering. At least until page two!


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

I've just noticed a lot of closed threads and even threads disappearing. There are some threads I don't care to read, so i don't click on them. Just seems that the hammer is always dropping. As long as there are no threats, I don't see anything wrong with disagreeing about union/non union or even ground up or ground down or even blue or black boxes.


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## JacksonburgFarmer (Jul 5, 2008)

In my area.....your wages have peaked.

In my area.....your market share is on the slide....

In my area.....you (some) are going to have to give up some money

In my area.....being union is a thing of the past....!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Charlie K (Aug 14, 2008)

JacksonburgFarmer said:


> In my area.....your wages have peaked.
> 
> In my area.....your market share is on the slide....
> 
> ...


Same thing that was said in the 80's during that gut wrenching recession.

Charlie


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Charlie K said:


> Same thing that was said in the 80's during that gut wrenching recession.
> 
> Charlie


And since then they did grow in some markets, others I have heard (ONLY HEARSAY) they the union never regained strength. Mostly in the rust belt.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

JacksonburgFarmer said:


> In my area.....
> 
> In my area.....
> 
> ...


Your area is the armpit of America, enuff said!!


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## Charlie K (Aug 14, 2008)

brian john said:


> And since then they did grow in some markets, others I have heard (ONLY HEARSAY) they the union never regained strength. Mostly in the rust belt.


Brian, we have lost a lot of our manufactoring. GM does not build cars in Baltimore any more, we lost 2 steel mills, shipyards, numerous factories and much more. We are still going. Markets change and we need to change with them. I dont think this is the end. I can retire at any time, my son is not so fortunate, but he should do just fine. Our local had increased our membership years back and we were all worried, over nothing.

Charlie


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## sparky105 (Sep 29, 2009)

We never give the money back but we do take less than when the work picks up we get more. When I say we I mean union and non union.
This is a good career you have picked . Learn it well and no one will take it away from you. If you get good at it you name your price. The union is good for everyone even the ones not in it. It keeps the wages up all across the board and the people safe and educated. I make a damn good living but I found my niche on a service truck working small projects and HVAC support We work a lot of off hrs. But when the times get tighter as they did last year I roll back to the regular 36 hr work week and have to share my work load. Just give them a days work and keep your feet moving and you'll be fine.Ignore the doom and gloom crowds they are the ones that are bringing us down.


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## 2phase5wire (Jan 9, 2011)

JacksonburgFarmer said:


> In my area.....your wages have peaked.
> 
> In my area.....your market share is on the slide....
> 
> ...



Your a Hick. Here the smart Hicks sell their farms off to Toll Brothers for millions and then the Mexicans come in and smack up the straw house Mcmansions by the hundreds.

After the Hicks roll out of the bank they fly their American Flags on the way to their tea Party meetings.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

2phase5wire said:


> Your a Hick. Here the smart Hicks sell their farms off to Toll Brothers for millions and then the Mexicans come in and smack up the straw house Mcmansions by the hundreds.
> 
> After the Hicks roll out of the bank they fly their American Flags on the way to their tea Party meetings.


Slick I am surprised at your response, you are usually better than this.


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## 2phase5wire (Jan 9, 2011)

brian john said:


> Slick I am surprised at you response, you are usually better than this.



I'm just busting chops.


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

Charlie K,

They had that "R" ticket around here in the '80's to compete. I never agreed that a motel fell into the Residential catagory. They did though to survive.


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

Ryan kercenneck said:


> I am only a first year apprentice but my curioisity has me wondering. There is alot of talk in Akron Ohio that cw's and ce's are going to push out the journeyman wireman. I'm just curious to see what some of the veterans and long time members have to say about this. Did we peak as a union as far as our wages, and our share of the market that we control? Are we going to have to give up the money that you all worked so hard to get just to work?


It is good that you show the spunk to question those things that do not make good logic. Through out our history there have been many plans made by our IO reps in order to garner more dues paying members.There have been little if any success but allowed the IBEW to stay competitive. This ce/cw plan is to go along with each locals small works contracts(they all vary some) I am personally against this plan because I believe it abuses the rights of those whom desire to get into the IBEW. Most the contracts allow the new members in at a lower rate of pay($6-$10 NORM) Some with out benefits.These new members have no real obligation to stay on after their job is through, nor does the IBEW actually assure them of future employment.The cw's could possible go 10 years before they accomplish full JW status and pay instead of the 5 years going through the apprenticeship program. Io spews the theory that it allows our contractors to win bids more often therefore create more work. We are in the midst of one of if not the worse economic situations our country has ever seen which is why this program is being touted now(it has been around for 5 or 6 or more years.When the economy takes an upswing the program will be a whisper and we will have gained a small number of new members who really believe in our family way of life.I wish you well going through the program it takes character make it through but I think it is worth it.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

The IBEW is on it's way out.

No denying it, sorry, I hate to sound like a Debbie Downer, but those holding onto optimism are plain Reh-tarded.

It's too expensive to put a bunch of booger pickers to work. 

The merit shop thing doesn't necessarily work any better, because the owners all stick together to suppress wages.

If we could take all the great sparkies into the local, and push all the booger pickers into merit shops, we'd have a winning combination!

Unfortunately, the booger pickers know there is strength in numbers, and they will vigorously oppose any obstacle that might come between their lips and the teet.


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

I'd say downhill, judging from statistics.


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## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

Man some of you guys are long winded. Those long posts overwhelm me and I just skip it and watch hockey fights on youtube instead.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

Speedy Petey said:


> Ryan, I did not direct that to you.
> It seems every thread started about the union, regardless of topic, ends up a for/against argument with no one ever changing their views.


Then why have a union section?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

John Valdes said:


> Then why have a union section?


 
SPEAKING STRICTLY FOR MYSELF.

I was not in favor of a union section and made my thoughts known. It was explained to me that many more members wanted this section and that attempts would be made to keep it less that contentious. 

I was not exactly a leader in the less that contentious group as I know I have fed some of the arguments. But have been striving to change that.

I think in some instances it has benefited some members especially apprentices seeking advice on a career path. That in itself makes it a asset to the forum.

Maybe we (ME) need to just realize that some differences will never be settled. I am a union contractor and strive to sway electricians to be union, BUT I am not so blind I cannot see problems with the IBEW and many other unions.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Charlie K said:


> Brian, we have lost a lot of our manufactoring. GM does not build cars in Baltimore any more, we lost 2 steel mills, shipyards, numerous factories and much more. We are still going. Markets change and we need to change with them. I dont think this is the end. I can retire at any time, my son is not so fortunate, but he should do just fine. Our local had increased our membership years back and we were all worried, over nothing.
> 
> Charlie


Charlie why do you think this is. Why are these major companies going to other locations?


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## Charlie K (Aug 14, 2008)

sbrn33 said:


> Charlie why do you think this is. Why are these major companies going to other locations?


Some plants closed due to lack of work like the shipyards. Steel mills closed because of product demand and they did not want to upgrade existing plants. Chemical plants closed because product was no longer in demand, or government regulations made it to costly to produce. GM stopped building mini vans (Astro and Safari). The list goes on. If you are getting to Union labor at the factory or plant drove them out beaware that quite a few of these were non union plants.

Charlie


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