# panels in canada



## doogie (Feb 16, 2011)

why are panels in canada side ways? not up and down?up and down less space right?


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

doogie said:


> why are panels in canada side ways? not up and down?up and down less space right?


 We are very laid back, up here in the Great White North.:laughing:


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## doogie (Feb 16, 2011)

see it on hgtv. never in US so why is that? is it a code ?is every house insp. like in maryland?


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

They also call romex "loomex" and wire nuts are "marrettes." Eh!


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## doogie (Feb 16, 2011)

some older guy in my company call wire nuts / balls .and why metal boxs ? we use plastic except for 5 gangs and pancake and ovens


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Just a guess that it is easier when you are not allowed to enter the branch circuits in the same area as the service conductors.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

doogie said:


> .and why metal boxs ?


Why not?


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## doogie (Feb 16, 2011)

yea why not


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## doogie (Feb 16, 2011)

i am asking why has to be metal and side ways panels?


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

doogie said:


> i am asking why has to be metal and side ways panels?


Tradition? Why do we use plastic boxes and mount our panels vertically? Why do they use 240 volts in Europe? Why do cows go "mooo"?


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## farlsincharge (Dec 31, 2010)

We don't mount every panel sideways. We cannot run branch circuits through the mains area and no breaker handle can be higher than 1.7m (5.5') in a residence. Any NMD below 1.5m has to be protected. I have been told that the area surrounding a panel does not count for this by a few inspectors, but all it takes is one overzealous cocksucker to make my life miserable. In a lot of situations it makes sense to lay it on the side. To me anyways.

Why plastic boxes?


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## doogie (Feb 16, 2011)

Not sure why plastic boxes. Will my master electrician .


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

farlsincharge said:


> Why plastic boxes?


Cheap. Fast. Easy. No grounding required. Billions installed and working fine.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

Because the CEC does not have the equivalent of 240.81 in the NEC.


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## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

My biggest Canadian question is why plastic boxes have a ground screw in them there.


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## doogie (Feb 16, 2011)

nmb protected .with a lb? here in US no more then 3 feet expoced lead wire . panel main no higher then 6 feet 6inches


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

Peter D said:


> Why do cows go "mooo"?







"Cows need some form of communication. Their sense of language isn't adapted as ours is, and their tongue is not shaped the way a human's tongue is. The shape of their tongue and throat prevents them from doing much more than make the sound they make. And cows don't actually say "moo". It is just that our own language is limited, and that is the best approximation that people can come up with." - Answers.com



farlsincharge said:


> We don't mount every panel sideways. We cannot run branch circuits through the mains area and no breaker handle can be higher than 1.7m (5.5') in a residence. Any NMD below 1.5m has to be protected. I have been told that the area surrounding a panel does not count for this by a few inspectors, but all it takes is one overzealous cocksucker to make my life miserable. In a lot of situations it makes sense to lay it on the side. To me anyways.
> 
> Why plastic boxes?


When you do mount a panel on it's side, do you mount it so the door swings down or pulls up? Is that addressed in the CEC or is it just a common sense things to put the door swinging down so you don't have to hold it?


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

doogie said:


> nmb protected .with a lb? here in US no more then 3 feet expoced lead wire . panel main no higher then 6 feet 6inches


I don't mean to sound unkind, but you would be better understood with complete sentences. Right now it sounds like you are talking in text message language.


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## doogie (Feb 16, 2011)

sorry not sure how to word questions. this is first time posting .


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

doogie said:


> sorry not sure how to word questions. this is first time posting .


 I'm guessing your last name is NOT Hauser.:whistling2::laughing:


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## doogie (Feb 16, 2011)

yes my last name is houser!!!!!!!!


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

:laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## doogie (Feb 16, 2011)

but doogie is a nickname . most guys in my company get a nickname.


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

doogie said:


> but doogie is a nickname . most guys in my company get a nickname.


Most guys in ANY company get a nickname, whether they call you it to your face is another thing. :laughing:


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## doogie (Feb 16, 2011)

Mosty all I do is residential rough wires . Not to many finals .I have 14 years same company. I just seen sideways panels on HGTV . Never seen that before . So I had to ask.


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

Not to sound unfriendly or anything but I have to strongly agree with Peter. Please don't take this the wrong way, but is English your primary language? Or are you bi-lingual by some chance? I don't want to slam you for grammar and proper spelling if it's not your native language.


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## doogie (Feb 16, 2011)

Sorry and good night


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

doogie said:


> Sorry and good night


The Doctor has left the building.:jester::laughing::laughing:


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## wcord (Jan 23, 2011)

doogie said:


> why are panels in canada side ways? not up and down?up and down less space right?


We are allowed to mount the panel right side up, upside down and sideways.

We can not enter the service conductor section of the panel, with the branch wiring. This is a safety issue, since those conductors are unfused. 

As was stated we have a maximum height for our branch breakers. So sometimes the horizontal configuration works perfectly.

I have noticed in some of the posted pictures, your service conductors coming into the top of the panel. In my province, this is not allowed, to prevent moisture from traveling along the conductors, into the main breaker.


Metal boxes- thats easy! We have to bond the box with the ground wire of the loomex. That gives us the ground necessary for the switch. We do not have to run a ground wire to switchs, only to receptacles.
The reason for the ground screw in our plastic boxes, is that the screw is part of a metal strip which carries the ground to the 6-32 screws. Thereby grounding the switches.


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

wcord said:


> We are allowed to mount the panel right side up, upside down and sideways.
> 
> We can not enter the service conductor section of the panel, with the branch wiring. This is a safety issue, since those conductors are unfused.


So if you have a sub panel to install, would you still not be allowed to bring the branch circuits through that area even though the feeders are fused at the main panel?


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## vos (Apr 1, 2010)

wcord said:


> We are allowed to mount the panel right side up, upside down and sideways.
> 
> We can not enter the service conductor section of the panel, with the branch wiring. This is a safety issue, since those conductors are unfused.
> 
> ...


learn something new every day!


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## randas (Dec 14, 2008)

thegoldenboy said:


> So if you have a sub panel to install, would you still not be allowed to bring the branch circuits through that area even though the feeders are fused at the main panel?


Only in a service entrance situation where you have unfused conductors do you need the barrier.


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## wcord (Jan 23, 2011)

thegoldenboy said:


> So if you have a sub panel to install, would you still not be allowed to bring the branch circuits through that area even though the feeders are fused at the main panel?


It is only the service entrance panel which has the restriction. When you remove the cover of the panel, there is another metal cover which has a bend in the plate towards the back, effectively dividing the unfused wires from the branch circuits.
As you rightfully questioned, a sub doesn't need the divider, as the wires feeding it are fused.


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## wcord (Jan 23, 2011)

picture shows the section divider plate and a panel with the entire cover


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

doogie said:


> sorry not sure how to word questions. this is first time posting .


I was on nice streak.. but..:whistling2:

Is english your first language? 

I sure hope you say no. :laughing:


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

oops.......................


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

The line side barrier is something we need in the NEC. With that you can remove the main panel cover and work in the load side of the main without violating the electrical safe work rules. To work in the service panel here, the rules actually require that we have the utility kill the line side.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> The line side barrier is something we need in the NEC. With that you can remove the main panel cover and work in the load side of the main without violating the electrical safe work rules. To work in the service panel here, the rules actually require that we have the utility kill the line side.


Which almost nobody does because it really isn't feasible.. So you turn the main off and use a little caution.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

nitro71 said:


> Which almost nobody does because it really isn't feasible.. So you turn the main off and use a little caution.


 But not legal and if an employee gets hurt, a small company will likely be put out of businsess by the fines and lawsuit award.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> The line side barrier is something we need in the NEC. With that you can remove the main panel cover and work in the load side of the main without violating the electrical safe work rules. To work in the service panel here, the rules actually require that we have the utility kill the line side.



I agree 100% and IMO your proposal should have been accepted.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

I have an even simpler modern and advanced Hawaiian method. Use a combo meter main disconnect outside, instead of running unfused conductors into the building and your panels..........:whistling2: Now leave my code book alone.....


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## randas (Dec 14, 2008)

macmikeman said:


> I have an even simpler modern and advanced Hawaiian method. Use a combo meter main disconnect outside, instead of running unfused conductors into the building and your panels..........:whistling2: Now leave my code book alone.....


here-here now THERE is something that should be code. I only wish I could put a meter-main outside when I do a service upgrade. Kinda a tough sell though when the cheapest 200a meter main I can get runs around $400


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

I get mine for less than a hundred dollars at home cheapo. 200 amps. But I do have to purchase the service disconnect breakers that go inside separate.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

BBQ said:


> I agree 100% and IMO your proposal should have been accepted.


I will try it again for 2014. It wouldn't hurt a bit if a number of other people submitted similar proposals.


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> I will try it again for 2014. It wouldn't hurt a bit if a number of other people submitted similar proposals.


Could you go into further details about what you're proposing? I would back you up and send in a proposal if I had a better understanding of what and why you're proposing it. If you're interested, feel free to PM me and we can talk things out.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

I am proposing that our service panels have a line side barrier so that when you remove the main dead front cover you are not exposed to the energized service conductors.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> I am proposing that our service panels have a line side barrier so that when you remove the main dead front cover you are not exposed to the energized service conductors.


I support a rule like that in the NEC completely.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

Does the cover need to be that large? How about just covering the top of the breaker where there are exposed live conductors? I really don't want to lose all of the space where the service feeders come in just to protect me from the insulated conductors. I do like the idea of a cover for the top of the breaker.


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## oliquir (Jan 13, 2011)

Peter D said:


> I support a rule like that in the NEC completely.


it is already in the CEC :laughing:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

oliquir said:


> it is already in the CEC :laughing:


I know. Don (resqcapt) has been actively trying to get the same rule inserted into the NEC for several code cycles now, to no avail. I think it's foolish that it keeps getting shot down as it would clearly enhance electrical safety.


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