# 20 amp dining room circuit



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

We wire kitchens this way - 2 - 20 amp countertop circuits and one 20 amp circuit that does the fridge and breakfast nook. I helped out on a rough where there was a formal dining room, and I roughed the dining room and put the fridge on the same circuit per our usual practice, or so I thought. 

The boss told me that if it's a formal dining room it should be its own circuit in case they use a hot plate. I was thinking to myself . Do they even make hot plates anymore? And do people who have brand new houses with high end kitchens even use them?


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

MTW said:


> We wire kitchens this way - 2 - 20 amp countertop circuits and one 20 amp circuit that does the fridge and breakfast nook. I helped out on a rough where there was a formal dining room, and I roughed the dining room and put the fridge on the same circuit per our usual practice, or so I thought.
> 
> The boss told me that if it's a formal dining room it should be its own circuit in case they use a hot plate. I was thinking to myself . Do they even make hot plates anymore? And do people who have brand new houses with high end kitchens even use them?


The electricians who post on a daily basis over at Mike Holt all use a hot plate and a toaster on their dining room table in the mornings as they eat breakfast and watch the Arthur Treacher show on the telly.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

Yes they make hot plates.... People use them in the bedrooms around here where that they rent... and have their entire 8 person family doubling up on multiple bunkbeds...

Also yes, rich people don't cook anymore, that is what restaurants are for. Kitchens are just trophy rooms to show off how stupidly you can spend your money for these people.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

In situations like this bosses/foremen/mentors should be mindful to specify when the standard being followed is company policy or specified in the drawings or code.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

macmikeman said:


> The electricians who post on a daily basis over at Mike Holt all use a hot plate and a toaster on their dining room table in the mornings as they eat breakfast and watch the Arthur Treacher show on the telly.


Ok but what do normal people do?


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Switched said:


> Yes they make hot plates.... People use them in the bedrooms around here where that they rent... and have their entire 8 person family doubling up on multiple bunkbeds...


Doesn't apply in this case.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

MTW said:


> Ok but what do normal people do?


They order takeout and sit around the tv playing on their electronics and not talking to each other, unless you count texting as talking.

I have never seen anyone plug anything besides a phone charger or computer to anything in a dining room.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Switched said:


> They order takeout and sit around the tv playing on their electronics and not talking to each other, unless you count texting as talking.
> 
> I have never seen anyone plug anything besides a phone charger or computer to anything in a dining room.


Likewise, which is why I wired it the way I did. I have never heard of anyone using any appliance in a dining room that's attached to a high end kitchen.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

I haven't even seen a dining room hutch in years, except in "Grandpa & Grandma's" house. 

People have shifted what they do and how they furnish their homes. I see most of our customers overloading bedroom circuits, because they all retreat to them and use them like their own little personal house. Most dining rooms seem to be dust collectors.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Switched said:


> I haven't even seen a dining room hutch in years, except in "Grandpa & Grandma's" house.
> 
> People have shifted what they do and how they furnish their homes. I see most of our customers overloading bedroom circuits, because they all retreat to them and use them like their own little personal house. Most dining rooms seem to be dust collectors.


Are they overloading them to the point of tripping breakers? Obviously personal electronics are in use but what else would overload a bedroom circuit?


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

In grand entertaining the use of hot plates and all the rest can be taken for granted.

Other typical loads: heat lamps pouring radiance down upon the ham// prime rib as the chef cuts it to spec.

You design for the Big Event -- not towards how you dream they live their daily lives.

And they can afford it. 

Low ball is NOT how you win a solid rep in that part of the world.

This is the kind of build where you're looking towards mood lighting, color shifts, and provision for rarely used convenience outlets so that Grand Events can be staged.

When they are under way, every dang Watt you can imagine is juicing up the joint.

And, yes, expect the Grand Event to be catered. 

Such events are exactly when the warmers come out -- the caterer brought them.

In bigger spaces, you'll want floor boxes, too.

These add-ons are what separate the quite wealthy from 'your Dentist down the road.'

BTW, you'll make more money wiring one of these gems than a tract of bread and butter homes.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

telsa said:


> In grand entertaining the use of hot plates and all the rest can be taken for granted.
> 
> Other typical loads: heat lamps pouring radiance down upon the ham// prime rib as the chef cuts it to spec.
> 
> ...


Um....ok? :blink:

We do customs and tracts, so that is kind of a moot point.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

MTW said:


> Are they overloading them to the point of tripping breakers? Obviously personal electronics are in use but what else would overload a bedroom circuit?


People put in space heaters and room AC units a lot over here. Many of the homes built before the 90's do not have AC, and in some areas those old wall mounted gas heaters are all they have to heat the home. So instead of investing in a new HVAC system, they go all Mickey Mouse on their house.

Also, on the street I live, only 3 of the 20 homes have a single family. Some have up to 3 families in one home....

It is the reason I try to only install 20A circuits for bedrooms, and keep them separated as much as possible.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

telsa said:


> In grand entertaining the use of hot plates and all the rest can be taken for granted.
> 
> Other typical loads: heat lamps pouring radiance down upon the ham// prime rib as the chef cuts it to spec.
> 
> ...


They do that in the big rented tent not in their home... And then you make more money by setting all the temp power up too!


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Switched said:


> People put in space heaters and room AC units a lot over here. Many of the homes built before the 90's do not have AC, and in some areas those old wall mounted gas heaters are all they have to heat the home. So instead of investing in a new HVAC system, they go all Mickey Mouse on their house.
> 
> Also, on the street I live, only 3 of the 20 homes have a single family. Some have up to 3 families in one home....
> 
> It is the reason I try to only install 20A circuits for bedrooms, and keep them separated as much as possible.


Ahh ok, in a brand new house with central heat and a/c that I deal with 90% of the time, that is not a concern. 

We have ton of older housing stock here and most of that utilizes window units or mini splits. Most houses I go into have at least one dedicated window a/c circuit somewhere in the house. If not, the load is evenly split up so that one 5 amp window unit it not going to cause a problem.


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## Dark Knight (Jan 6, 2016)

Switched said:


> They order takeout and sit around the tv playing on their electronics and not talking to each other, unless you count texting as talking.
> 
> *I have never seen anyone plug anything besides a phone charger or computer to anything in a dining room*.


Water cooler.


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## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

It's not a hot plate but a food warmer that we use in the dining room. It looks like three crock pots put together. It's stored in the buffet, and we use it for bigger dinners. It's nice having the mashed potatoes and beans or yams all ready to go while your messing with gravy or carving turkey. 

I don't see anything wrong with putting the dining room on with the two counter circuits or the refrigerator. I've always ran a 20 amp circuit to the dishwasher, so that could also be an option. By the time the dishwasher is on dinner is over.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

telsa said:


> BTW, you'll make more money wiring one of these gems than a tract of bread and butter homes.


Kitchens big enough to play soccer in, Great rooms a drone would get lost in , Bathrooms with statues pissin', Entry's with ornate staircase Scarlet O'Hara would envy, chandeliers the size of buicks.....:thumbup:~CS~


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

I'm finding the DF's _cheaper _than an AFCI & point of use GFCI for kitchens

What say the flock?

~CS~


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Dark Knight said:


> Water cooler.


wine coolers.....

~CS~


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

Switched said:


> People put in space heaters and room AC units a lot over here. Many of the homes built before the 90's do not have AC, and in some areas those old wall mounted gas heaters are all they have to heat the home. So instead of investing in a new HVAC system, they go all Mickey Mouse on their house.
> 
> Also, on the street I live, only 3 of the 20 homes have a single family. Some have up to 3 families in one home....
> 
> It is the reason I try to only install 20A circuits for bedrooms, and keep them separated as much as possible.


 In September , during that heat wave on the Monterey Peninsula,
tried as we could , we couldn't even locate a fan...all the stores sold
out what they had in stock...none of my in laws have AC in their houses 
or rentals there.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

lighterup said:


> In September , during that heat wave on the Monterey Peninsula,
> tried as we could , we couldn't even locate a fan...all the stores sold
> out what they had in stock...none of my in laws have AC in their houses
> or rentals there.


I have some in my storage unit... I could have sold you one for $3000.00, plus another $600.00 to install it.... But then I may give you the ET Friend discount of +500%.... so...


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

Switched said:


> I have some in my storage unit... I could have sold you one for $3000.00, plus another $600.00 to install it.... But then I may give you the ET Friend discount of +500%.... so...


you*@#**sum^&&%!


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

lighterup said:


> you*@#**sum^&&%!


I can't believe you came all the way out here and didn't call me!

I was doing a rewire close to M&S Building Supply, just off of Del Monte... You could have watched my apprentice drill through a newly finished hardwood floor!


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

Switched said:


> I can't believe you came all the way out here and didn't call me!
> 
> I was doing a rewire close to M&S Building Supply, just off of Del Monte... You could have watched my apprentice drill through a newly finished hardwood floor!


I looked up "switched" in the phone book but couldn't 
find you.:no:

I stayed at the hotel by Marina dunes.

My in laws live on Soto St (off _Obama way_-
I liked _Broadway_ much better BTW


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

lighterup said:


> I looked up "switched" in the phone book but couldn't
> find you.:no:
> 
> I stayed at the hotel by Marina dunes.
> ...


Maybe it can be changed to "Trump" now?

I was actually in the process of closing down my business there in September. I had just a few jobs to close out. I don't do business there anymore, moved it all to the Central Valley. Got tired of the traffic, commuting, stupidity, and prices....

Weather is nice though!


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

Switched said:


> Maybe it can be changed to "Trump" now?
> 
> I was actually in the process of closing down my business there in September. I had just a few jobs to close out. I don't do business there anymore, moved it all to the Central Valley. Got tired of the traffic, commuting, stupidity, and prices....
> 
> Weather is nice though!


what is Central Valley? ...Fresno , Sacramento?


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

lighterup said:


> what is Central Valley? ...Fresno , Sacramento?


Fresno and Sac are in it.. I'm smack dab in the middle of them... give or take a few miles.

BTW... I think the phonebook is only like 5-7 pages now anyway...


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Stockton to Fresno = the heart of the Central Valley.

It's almost pure farmland... with a few minor (farming oriented) burgs... here and there.

So many onions are grown close to I-99 that 'you'll cry.'


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

MTW said:


> We wire kitchens this way - 2 - 20 amp countertop circuits and one 20 amp circuit that does the fridge and breakfast nook. I helped out on a rough where there was a formal dining room, and I roughed the dining room and put the fridge on the same circuit per our usual practice, or so I thought.
> 
> The boss told me that if it's a formal dining room it should be its own circuit in case they use a hot plate. I was thinking to myself . Do they even make hot plates anymore? And do people who have brand new houses with high end kitchens even use them?


I agree with the way you did the work. However, if the boss wants to waste money on an additional circuit then it’s his lose and ultimately yours with a smaller Christmas bonus.


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

When I did new construction we would jump one kitchen counter circuit off the dining room and one off of the nook circuit. If it was a small, cheap house we would pull the fridge off of one of those as well.

But generally we would run a dedicated 15 amp circuit for the fridge. Unless it was a built in fridge then we would pull a dedicated 20 amp circuit.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

chicken steve said:


> I'm finding the DF's _cheaper _than an AFCI & point of use GFCI for kitchens
> 
> What say the flock?


We use DF breakers on all circuits that need both protection. It's more inventory to keep track of but less labor to install one device.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

Here we have a State amendment to the AFCI rule
for Kitchen counter top outlets...it's not required.

I don't mix the dining rm with the kitchen because 
a) the dining rm does require afci but no gfci
b) the kitchen does require gfci but no afci

I could see sharing the refer with the dining rm
outlet receptacles all on one afci 20 amp circuit though


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

So you could make the refer your first stop, then gfci countertop, then load side on out

less _'refer popped the breaker_' callbacks imho

~CS~


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

drspec said:


> When I did new construction we would jump one kitchen counter circuit off the dining room and one off of the nook circuit. If it was a small, cheap house we would pull the fridge off of one of those as well.
> 
> But generally we would run a dedicated 15 amp circuit for the fridge. Unless it was a built in fridge then we would pull a dedicated 20 amp circuit.


We practically never run a dedicated fridge circuit. I usually end up with 4-5 20A circuits in the kitchen though, depending on the size and appliances.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

I'll just run a HR for every appliance , usually because whatever layout i'm working off won't specify them. I'll troff & Gbar above a panel for neatness, 
especially when some HR's aren't used or married together. usually a #4 is the only ECG into the panel & no splices exist in it.

~CS~


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

You put a wireway above every panel so you only have to run 1 ground wire into the panel? Really?


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

I like _neat _panels, and troffs are my way to make _them_ neat Commando

And no , not every one

Exposed basement or mech room panels.

In situation where there may be multiple entities, I.E.> panel, T switch, Inverters, or conduits , they're a time saver for me

~CS~


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

chicken steve said:


> So you could make the refer your first stop, then gfci countertop, then load side on out
> 
> less _'refer popped the breaker_' callbacks imho
> 
> ~CS~


Personally , I prefer to keep the refer on it's own 
dedicated afci circuit.(12 awg )
The (2) small appliance circuits are gfci counter 
top outlet receptacles (12 awg)
The Microwave is on it's own afci circuit (12 awg)
The Dishwasher on it's own afci (12 awg) and may share 
disposal if there is one (outlet is under sink)
The hood & 120 volt gas range on its own afci (12 awg)
cause I see a lot of high end hoods (not the
recirculating HD specials / crap)
The Dining room outlet receptacles on their own afci
(12 awg)
The breakfast room on it's own (12 awg) afci

These are S.O.P.'s and I will figure these costs in
my estimate/proposal...

Now if I run into "problems" , I can always back
off on these extra expenses by doubling up items
and thus cut back or "recuperate" some funds.
(only when I feel I'm getting abusive treatment)


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

lighterup said:


> Personally , I prefer to keep the refer on it's own
> dedicated afci circuit.(12 awg )
> The (2) small appliance circuits are gfci counter
> top outlet receptacles (12 awg)
> ...




We install 2 kitchen counter circuits, one fridge/nook and one stove/micro on 20's and we put the dishwasher and disposal on separate 15 amp circuits. We never have a problem with this arrangement. 

I don't see the point of putting the breakfast nook and fridge on their own dedicated circuits. Most large refrigerators only use 6-7 amps these days.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

lighterup said:


> These are S.O.P.'s and I will figure these costs in
> my estimate/proposal...
> 
> Now if I run into "problems" , I can always back
> ...


I've done the same for decades as well Lighter. 

Maybe run a 12-3 under the sink ,might be the only thing i've done differently

About the only thing that's really changed for _methodology _ is the afci deal. 

Lotta us _rethought _ 'SOP's.....

~CS~


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

chicken steve said:


> I've done the same for decades as well Lighter.
> 
> Maybe run a 12-3 under the sink ,might be the only thing i've done differently
> 
> ...


I am rethinking it for same reason:thumbsup:


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Going_Commando said:


> We practically never run a dedicated fridge circuit. I usually end up with 4-5 20A circuits in the kitchen though, depending on the size and appliances.



Just for the counter, or is that inclusive of dedicated appliance circuits?


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## Dark Knight (Jan 6, 2016)

So you guys don't have to put the fridge on its own circuit? And that brings me to my next question, why wouldn't you anyway? Someone plugs something into that circuit and leaves for the long weekend and that something has a fault and trips the breaker and the fridge is off for three days. I realize this is a long shot scenario, but most of the code is for long shot scenarios. Why not just put it on its own and minimize that risk?


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

MTW said:


> Just for the counter, or is that inclusive of dedicated appliance circuits?


Including appliance circuits.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Dark Knight said:


> So you guys don't have to put the fridge on its own circuit? And that brings me to my next question, why wouldn't you anyway? Someone plugs something into that circuit and leaves for the long weekend and that something has a fault and trips the breaker and the fridge is off for three days. I realize this is a long shot scenario, but most of the code is for long shot scenarios. Why not just put it on its own and minimize that risk?


I suppose one could say we've the option, for reasons you've stated DarkOne ~CS~


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

I just did 2 spec houses. I hit the dining room and ran it to the fridge and one side of counter. 2nd HR for the other side of counter. 20A circuit for MW and 20A for Disp & DW.

Custom house I would do a little different depending on the needs. Tract/Spec house = minimum!


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