# whole house rewire



## Dennis Alwon

Welcome to the forum. 

A lot has to do with accessibility, pitch of the roof, blocking in the walls, interior surfaces. I would never do this as a contract but would give a guesstimate and work by the hour.


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## Cletis

$13,569.50


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## McClary’s Electrical

I just did one that was 1400 sq ft. Every bit of copper was cut out of the place.


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## CESnc

through the attic is pretty accessible. the eaves of the house are about 2 ft wide so a right angle drill would get into the exterior walls somewhat easier but ive always ran into unforseen probs fishing into existing exterior walls


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## CESnc

this one is still wired but with no ground so the homeowner wants to rewire. im not arguing cuz its money in my pocket


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## Speedy Petey

Dude, I am really not trying to be a jerk, but you are a licensed electrician, and you don't know how to bid a tiny residential rewire???


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## McClary’s Electrical

CESnc said:


> this one is still wired but with no ground so the homeowner wants to rewire. im not arguing cuz its money in my pocket


 
Use all existing old wire to pull in new wire. You shouldn't need to drill much.


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## Cletis

Speedy Petey said:


> Dude, I am really not trying to be a jerk, but you are a licensed electrician, and you don't know how to bid a tiny residential rewire???


Side jobber...


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## Dennis Alwon

Don't turn down jobs in this economy... Wish I could help you with price but there is so much more to it-- all electric? new service? new panels? 

Don't forget to figure a bit for Smoke Detectors. Usually I wire them in if I can but NC requires at least one carbon detector outside the bedroom area and regular smoke detectors in each bedroom. They can be battery if the walls or ceilings are not opened.

Actually unless there is a building permit taken then you don't have to but I would.


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## thegoldenboy

Are you opening up walls? Are you fishing everything in, using old work boxes? What are you doing...


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## CESnc

reusing boxes that are there. it has metal boxes with clamps. he wants me to open up the least amount of walls as possible which means ill have to cut a hole at every device pretty much then ill fish the wires from the attic


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## mbednarik

what is the existing wire method? k and t, 1st gen romex, mixed? I have had good luck with just hooking up to k and t and pulling in the new wire. The last one i did, 2 story, added about 6 outlets, all new wiring in 1st floor outlets, about 1/2 of 2nd floor outlets and we left the lighting as is, took 2 guys 3 days. this included a new 200 amp service and updated grounding.


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## CESnc

Existing wire is 1st gen romex which is stapled. How am I supposed 2 use it 2 pull new wire


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## mbednarik

CESnc said:


> Existing wire is 1st gen romex which is stapled. How am I supposed 2 use it 2 pull new wire


i have never been able to get 1st gen romex to work like that. I would let the ho know that there may be some plaster repair work and cut the boxes out and fish new wire and replace. Everytime i try to replace these boxes i damage the plaster, just plan on a little of repair at each box. and i would double the labor posted above.


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## nitro71

Why would you cut a hole at each box? Just fish it in. I'd break each task down into time. Figure out how long you can do the whole thing in. Then double your time estimate.


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## mbednarik

nitro71 said:


> Why would you cut a hole at each box? Just fish it in. I'd break each task down into time. Figure out how long you can do the whole thing in. Then double your time estimate.


how do you fish from the attic to a 1/2"x3/8" hole in the back of a metal box in an insulated wall? I usually remove the box, and when you do that, with the box being plastered in, the plaster breaks and chips around the box, requiring patching.


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## nitro71

mbednarik said:


> how do you fish from the attic to a 1/2"x3/8" hole in the back of a metal box in an insulated wall? I usually remove the box, and when you do that, with the box being plastered in, the plaster breaks and chips around the box, requiring patching.


Fishin sticks would be the thing I'd try first.


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## mbednarik

nitro71 said:


> Fishin sticks would be the thing I'd try first.


 how do you get them in the pry out with the box still on the wall with insulation.


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## leland

CESnc said:


> a week ago a potential customer asked me to give him an estimate to rewire his entire house. this includes upgrading the service to 200A. does anyone who has done a whole house rewire know about how much this would cost in labor. the house is 1000 sq ft and has an attic. crawl space is not to accessible



$12.5k NEW + $1500 EXTRAS.

$22k SHOULD COVER IT.:thumbsup: + XTRAS.


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## thegoldenboy

This thread reeks of DIY. An apprentice worth his salt knows how to fish a wire into an existing new work box.


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## fondini

I always figure new boxes,cut the nails on the old ones with a sawzall,then use smartboxes to replace. It is time consuming but will save plaster repair,might have to fix chips around box with spackle,nothing larger sized plates wont cover after repair.Also whoever said figure labor and double it might be low! Is it vinyl siding? If so unzip it where you need to and cut your access holes and wire from behind where you can,hole repair wont be so critical on appearance as siding will cover the repair. have fun.


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## Bulldog1

mbednarik said:


> how do you get them in the pry out with the box still on the wall with insulation.




You cut the box out and use a cut in. I would tell the HO I will have to cut holes where needed or the labor will be high.


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## mbednarik

thegoldenboy said:


> This thread reeks of DIY. An apprentice worth his salt knows how to fish a wire into an existing new work box.


I'v done this coming up from the basement where you were only fishing 2', but i have never been able to do this from the attic on an outside wall, without cutting out the box/possible damaging plaster. I have only worked for one contractor my whole career, and school really didn't teach anything about remodel. I'm curious, how do you fish from an attic space, next to the eve, down an insulated wall, into an existing metal box.


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## Gaterhater

mbednarik said:


> I'v done this coming up from the basement where you were only fishing 2', but i have never been able to do this from the attic on an outside wall, without cutting out the box/possible damaging plaster. I have only worked for one contractor my whole career, and school really didn't teach anything about remodel. I'm curious, how do you fish from an attic space, next to the eve, down an insulated wall, into an existing metal box.


You stick the smallest help you can find in the attic! Lol


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## mbednarik

i am the only help now. Before when i worked for that contractor i was the smallest


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## thegoldenboy

mbednarik said:


> I'v done this coming up from the basement where you were only fishing 2', but i have never been able to do this from the attic on an outside wall, without cutting out the box/possible damaging plaster. I have only worked for one contractor my whole career, and school really didn't teach anything about remodel. I'm curious, how do you fish from an attic space, next to the eve, down an insulated wall, into an existing metal box.


I'd tell you, but I'd have to kill you. But then I couldn't live with myself, so I'd have to off myself too.


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## Pfloyd527

sit down and figure a contract price for the service (drop from pt of attach, meter, rods+bonding, panel and breakers), and then just t&m the rest of the job.... the pain in the ass is figuring your time for fishing oldwork walls with the home owner asking you to be "dainty" about it..... if hes worried about a little sheetrock getting caved in he will gasp at the cost of a whole house re-wire, this might be one to run away from...


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## B W E

thegoldenboy said:


> This thread reeks of DIY. An apprentice worth his salt knows how to fish a wire into an existing new work box.


Come on, in an insulated wall, with fire blocks? Blown in confetti insulation at that. There's no fishing into those boxes. Most old home have fire blocks on interior walls too. The walls are going to get tore up, no way around it.


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## B W E

mbednarik said:


> I'v done this coming up from the basement where you were only fishing 2', but i have never been able to do this from the attic on an outside wall, without cutting out the box/possible damaging plaster. I have only worked for one contractor my whole career, and school really didn't teach anything about remodel. I'm curious, how do you fish from an attic space, next to the eve, down an insulated wall, into an existing metal box.


You're right.... Can't be done that way. That how homeowners think.... You know, people that have never done it?


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## thegoldenboy

B W E said:


> Come on, in an insulated wall, with fire blocks? Blown in confetti insulation at that. There's no fishing into those boxes. Most old home have fire blocks on interior walls too. The walls are going to get tore up, no way around it.


Nothing was said about fire blocks. From the sounds of it, this guy doesn't even know what's behind his walls for sure. I've been in newer homes that have had them, I've been in older homes that have not. I rewired my first house when I was 19, pretty much by myself. No prior rewires under my belt, only having worked for one contractor and I got it done. Simple as that. I did a lot of fishing by myself, I learned quite a bit about how things got put together, and more importantly how to get around them. Did some walls have to go through some cosmetics after I was done, yes. But for the majority of the project, the existing finishes remain untouched. 

Any smart electrician is going to make sure they can't fish from the bottom up or the top down before they go making a hole in a customers finished wall.


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## B W E

thegoldenboy said:


> Nothing was said about fire blocks. From the sounds of it, this guy doesn't even know what's behind his walls for sure. I've been in newer homes that have had them, I've been in older homes that have not. I rewired my first house when I was 19, pretty much by myself. No prior rewires under my belt, only having worked for one contractor and I got it done. Simple as that. I did a lot of fishing by myself, I learned quite a bit about how things got put together, and more importantly how to get around them. Did some walls have to go through some cosmetics after I was done, yes. But for the majority of the project, the existing finishes remain untouched.
> 
> Any smart electrician is going to make sure they can't fish from the bottom up or the top down before they go making a hole in a customers finished wall.


You're crazy. Never saw an exterior wall without a fireblock, unless it got knocked out by someone else doing remodel work.

Nothing was said about fireblocks?? Nothing has to be said about fire blocks. "any smart electrician" knows that they are there. 

And there's absolutely no way I would ever attempt to fish down at every location before I went to plan "b". There's no way to fish down the exterior wall when the roof meets the wall there. Just no way. Even with flexible glow sticks, with the roof being so low there, there is now way to control where the sticks go because you can't get them verticals when going through the top plate.

Sorry man, to me, you're wrong on all counts.


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## Dennis Alwon

B W E said:


> You're crazy. Never saw an exterior wall without a fireblock, unless it got knocked out by someone else doing remodel work.
> 
> Nothing was said about fireblocks?? Nothing has to be said about fire blocks. "any smart electrician" knows that they are there.


Ben watch your tone please. If the walls are 8' there are no requirements for fire block. Most houses- older ones did not have blocking. I did some houses in NYC where you could fish from the 2nd floor attic to the basement and no hole was needed- it is called balloon framing.

Around here on new homes if the walls are over 8' or if there is vertical siding then there is blocking- otherwise there is none.


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## Amish Electrician

Your customer needs a MAJOR reality check .... and, I'm afraid, so do you.

No ground wire? Chances are, the place has blocking in the middle of the walls, as well as at the top. This severely limits what you can pull. 

Likewise, the boxes are likely the ones with angled backs, and just don't have the room you need these days.

The code has added all manner of required circuits since the house was built. This means more walls opened.

Yes, there's a lot you can do with a multi-master (very little dust, better control than a roto-zip)- but you're still talking about what amounts to a complete gut remodel. By the time you're done, there won't be a wall you have not opened up on one side.

It will be quicker, easier, and look better if you completely strip a wall facing, rather then try to patch a bunch of holes.

Another tool you'll want is a cordless impact driver with Irwin Speed-bor Max bits; they're great for boring through wood, and the assembly fits between studs.


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## macmikeman

A single wall redwood house rewire would stump all the band members here......













yours truly excepted. did so many cannot count.


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## sbrn33

CESnc said:


> a week ago a potential customer asked me to give him an estimate to rewire his entire house. this includes upgrading the service to 200A. does anyone who has done a whole house rewire know about how much this would cost in labor. the house is 1000 sq ft and has an attic. crawl space is not to accessible


labor Minimum 10k to 13k
permit
material minimum 4k
misc. patching

Your looking at a mini mun of 17 to 20 thousand, go tell your customer that before you spend anymore time on this.


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## Dennis Alwon

sbrn33 said:


> labor Minimum 10k to 13k
> permit
> material minimum 4k
> misc. patching
> 
> Your looking at a mini mun of 17 to 20 thousand, go tell your customer that before you spend anymore time on this.


That would be an outlandish price for a 1000 sq. ft home here in NC.


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## sbrn33

Really for a house with all the walls covered,furniture inside and people living there?
If it was empty and gutted it would still be around 11
How many days with one guy would it take you?


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## retiredsparktech

macmikeman said:


> A single wall redwood house rewire would stump all the band members here......
> I saw a TOH project on a Ocean front home. That home had single-wall construction. I don't remember if they used Wiremold or hid the wiring with the method you recommended. I loved the original service. A-base meter and porcelain lamp holders under the eaves.


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## Pfloyd527

I say cut holes and channels in the sheetrock where you need them and explain to the home owner its cheaper for patchwork to be done than all the labor ishing the wires... Either way just from reading this thread id tell the home owner to plan on patching holes.... dont forget to demo all your old wires!!!


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## Dennis Alwon

I don't believe it is cheaper to cut walls, patch, paint etc then it is to be careful. I have done numerous jobs without having to cut. I have fished from attics to crawl spaces in a one story house with blocks in the middle and didn't have a problem. 

I take pride in doing a job without butchering the place.


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## thegoldenboy

Dennis Alwon said:


> I don't believe it is cheaper to cut walls, patch, paint etc then it is to be careful. I have done numerous jobs without having to cut. I have fished from attics to crawl spaces in a one story house with blocks in the middle and didn't have a problem.
> 
> I take pride in doing a job without butchering the place.


My sentiments exactly. Old work is a skill that requires a certain amount of finesse. 

We do a lot of work at a local college during the summer, usally about 6 months worth of work condensed into 2 1/2 or so. It's certainly _faster _for us to get stuff into place with the walls opened up. When we can't open the walls or ceiling up, that's when it pays to have the experience. 

Sometimes we have to really think outside of the box to overcome obstacles, but it comes together in the end.


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## B W E

Dennis Alwon said:


> Ben watch your tone please. If the walls are 8' there are no requirements for fire block. Most houses- older ones did not have blocking. I did some houses in NYC where you could fish from the 2nd floor attic to the basement and no hole was needed- it is called balloon framing.
> 
> Around here on new homes if the walls are over 8' or if there is vertical siding then there is blocking- otherwise there is none.


Watch my tone?? Let's not start that crap again.

Balloon framing ended around 1935, so, while it still exists, it is not common. 

What you're saying is that you have fished from an attic, where to top plate and roof meet, through the top plate, through insulation, through a fireblock, and through a sill plate? I'm calling bs on this. Given that the space from the top of the top plate to the roof sheating is 6" or so, can't see how that's possible, even with those "drill and pray" bits WITH an extension.


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## Dennis Alwon

B W E said:


> Watch my tone?? Let's not start that crap again.


 yeah, let's not



> What you're saying is that you have fished from an attic, where to top plate and roof meet, through the top plate, through insulation, through a fireblock, and through a sill plate? I'm calling bs on this. Given that the space from the top of the top plate to the roof sheating is 6" or so, can't see how that's possible, even with those "drill and pray" bits WITH an extension.



So now you are calling me a liar-- quite frankly I have nothing to prove to you. I have done what I said many, many times and if you don't believe it then so be it.

Remember the pitch of the roof determines how much space is at the angle. I am sure a 3/12 or 4/12 is probably not possible but they are not common around here.


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## B W E

Dennis Alwon said:


> yeah, let's not


What you're saying is that you have fished from an attic, where to top plate and roof meet, through the top plate, through insulation, through a fireblock, and through a sill plate? I'm calling bs on this. Given that the space from the top of the top plate to the roof sheating is 6" or so, can't see how that's possible, even with those "drill and pray" bits WITH an extension.[/quote]

So now you are calling me a liar-- quite frankly I have nothing to prove to you. I have done what I said many, many times and if you don't believe it then so be it.

Remember the pitch of the roof determines how much space is at the angle. I am sure a 3/12 or 4/12 is probably not possible but they are not common around here.[/QUOTE]

So let me get this straight..... You qualify one (in my opinion ridiculous) statement by citing a framing method that hasn't been used in almost 80 years, and you qualify another (in my opinion BS) statement with "I have nothing to prove"?

That pretty much green lights a slew of ad hominem attacks.

When I do these kinds of rewires, I throw a roll of NM up in the attic. Then I go back to the outlet box, play a few notes in a flute, snap my fingers, and the NM makes its way into the box for me. I've done it many, many times.


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## Bulldog1

Dennis Alwon said:


> I don't believe it is cheaper to cut walls, patch, paint etc then it is to be careful. I have done numerous jobs without having to cut. I have fished from attics to crawl spaces in a one story house with blocks in the middle and didn't have a problem.
> 
> I take pride in doing a job without butchering the place.



The one GC we work for told me one time that sheetrock is easy to repair and his sheetrock guy charges less per hour than we do so cut what you need. Sure we fish some without damage but by no means is it butchering the place IMO. We are talking total rewire not a few receptacles. Just my 2 cents.


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## B W E

Bulldog1 said:


> The one GC we work for told me one time that sheetrock is easy to repair and his sheetrock guy charges less per hour than we do so cut what you need. Sure we fish some without damage but by no means is it butchering the place IMO. We are talking total rewire not a few receptacles. Just my 2 cents.


Exactly. The time involved to attempt these miracle "hole in one" fishing expeditions would GREATLY exceed in labor costs the repair of neatly cut access holes where needed. You're right, it's a WHOLE HOUSE REWIRE. Kinda like saying "I want a new sprinkler system installed with all new water lines, but don't cut up the grass to do it.". 

Anyone that says they can do that, without an ASTRONOMICAL price, WITHOUT cutting the walls is crazy.

(my tone was very soothing and reassuring, I was smiling, and patting on the back as well.)


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## Dennis Alwon

Bulldog1 said:


> The one GC we work for told me one time that sheetrock is easy to repair and his sheetrock guy charges less per hour than we do so cut what you need. Sure we fish some without damage but by no means is it butchering the place IMO. We are talking total rewire not a few receptacles. Just my 2 cents.


That is true when there is a builder involved. Go back to the op. I don't believe there is construction going on but rather a rewire is called for. Now if you think cutting holes in every spot an outlet is needed is a better job then go for it. I would fire my guys for doing that.

Ben you started this with statements that smart electrician .... Insinuating that others are dumb. Then you went on with every house has fire block-- that is not true--Almost every home in this area does not have fire block unless the studs are longer than 8'. Then you say my statement is BS about what I said I can do. FYI, my worker who is now on his own got a kick out of that as I told him what you said. He said we did it all the time-- 

Because you never saw a wall without fire block you call someone else crazy. The comment about balloon framing was there only to tell you there were more processes to building homes then you are stating. The op is wiring an older home that is all we know. We don't know roof pitch etc. 

So perhaps you don't see this as you being negative and condescending but I do.


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## chicken steve

I''ve done enough old work to _fill _dumpsters with K&T and BX

one gets good at fishing _wire,_ just as one gets good at fishing for _trout_ if s/he did it day in/out year in/out

in fact, i've been accused of having xray vision

i _don't _btw

one just gets familiar with certian types of construction to that point

~CS~


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## Sparky J

Actually to add some fuel to BWE's fire like Dennis said there are some of those type of homes here but it's a crapshoot. But anything you can do to make life easier go for it. Some homes here you can get lucky enough to find a nice space next to a plumbing vent stack or duct work and fish it from the basement to the attic. Some old homes have masonry exterior walls and gaps in between the old walls and the masonry wall sometimes you luck into a chase. But here there are a bunch of different types of construction and construction practices. :thumbsup:


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## B W E

Dennis Alwon said:


> That is true when there is a builder involved. Go back to the op. I don't believe there is construction going on but rather a rewire is called for. Now if you think cutting holes in every spot an outlet is needed is a better job then go for it. I would fire my guys for doing that.
> 
> Ben you started this with statements that smart electrician .... Insinuating that others are dumb. Then you went on with every house has fire block-- that is not true--Almost every home in this area does not have fire block unless the studs are longer than 8'. Then you say my statement is BS about what I said I can do. FYI, my worker who is now on his own got a kick out of that as I told him what you said. He said we did it all the time--
> 
> Because you never saw a wall without fire block you call someone else crazy. The comment about balloon framing was there only to tell you there were more processes to building homes then you are stating. The op is wiring an older home that is all we know. We don't know roof pitch etc.
> 
> So perhaps you don't see this as you being negative and condescending but I do.


Read again, I'm not the one who made the initial "smart electricians" comment. it was made by someone else (funny you take offense to the "smart electrician" comment, but only when you incorrectly assume it was me who first made it).

Do you get an email alert whenever I post?? You're silent on all (ok most.... Unless you dont particularly like the guy receiving the trash talking) the BS trash talking here, but as soon as I say something like "you're crazy" you jump out of the bushes and pounce. 

This is why I have said from day one that your double standard, selective enforcement crap sucks. Im guessing the direction our interaction has gone warrants a private message, but you didn't see fit, so public works for me too.


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## MarkyMark

I did a complete 1400 sq. ft. re-wire one time (aluminum wiring replacement) and only cut a total of six holes in the sheet-rock. I was the highest price of the three estimates the homeowner got, by several thousand dollars, but I was the only one that included patching sheet-rock in my price, and was told that was the main reason I got the job. I ended up paying a handy man like $200 or $300 to do the patching.


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## Gaterhater

Man these guys are fighting like they have to fish all this crap in there. Fire block or not, one story or two, easy or hard..... Just make sure you cover your own ass in the cost department. Inhabited rewires can be a bitch. All this talk about fire block and attics make me glad I do commercial!


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## Bulldog1

Dennis Alwon said:


> That is true when there is a builder involved. Go back to the op. I don't believe there is construction going on but rather a rewire is called for. Now if you think cutting holes in every spot an outlet is needed is a better job then go for it. I would fire my guys for doing that.



We cut when necessary when it will be cheaper for the customer. Almost all houses here built in the 60's and 70's has fire blocking. We have done many rewires with no damage but I have no problem cutting if the customer doesn't.


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## thegoldenboy

B W E said:


> Read again, I'm not the one who made the initial "smart electricians" comment. it was made by someone else (funny you take offense to the "smart electrician" comment, but only when you incorrectly assume it was me who first made it).


I was the first to use it in this thread. Not denying that, but I was not pointing fingers at you nor was I calling you out on it. I said it because I'm dead set convinced the OP is not a licensed electrician or a confident apprentice. See this from post #12:



> he wants me to open up the least amount of walls as possible which means ill have to cut a hole at every device pretty much then ill fish the wires from the attic


If the customer gave the green light for opening up walls, the first thing I'd do is hit the bay with a grinder and take out entire sections out. If they didn't give the green light, I'd seek out the least damaging alternative to the finished surface. And what I quoted, doesn't sound like the way to approach the situation from the get go.


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## Cletis

*Idea*

HEY! I have an idea? 

How about go outside on a ladder. Flip roof shingle up right over wallplate,drill with long bit all the way through. Tar the roof shingle and close. Then go back attic and fish wire down to new box. 

What do you think? Hack or Genius ?


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## Dennis Alwon

Cletis said:


> HEY! I have an idea?
> 
> How about go outside on a ladder. Flip roof shingle up right over wallplate,drill with long bit all the way through. Tar the roof shingle and close. Then go back attic and fish wire down to new box.
> 
> What do you think? Hack or Genius ?


I have done that on a roof with no attic. Fortunately the builder dealt with removing a few shingles.


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## B W E

Cletis said:


> HEY! I have an idea?
> 
> How about go outside on a ladder. Flip roof shingle up right over wallplate,drill with long bit all the way through. Tar the roof shingle and close. Then go back attic and fish wire down to new box.
> 
> What do you think? Hack or Genius ?


Assuming that method would be allowed by the owner or builder, would you have one guy at the outlet box (that your drill bit ended up inside) one guy in the attic to tape the romex onto the end of the bit (not really sure how you would get the end of the bit inside the attic if the other side is inside the outlet box) and then of course the guy on the roof drilling the hole?

So, three guys per drop. That would take about an hour (assuming there was a bit of miss, miss, miss, miss, hit trying to get into the box)? So three man hours per outlet? Sounds like that wouldn't cost that much


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## Cletis

*No*

NO NO NO. 1 man. about 30 min tops. Ladder, drill, patch. Go to attic, fish down to hole and finish.


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## B W E

Cletis said:


> NO NO NO. 1 man. about 30 min tops. Ladder, drill, patch. Go to attic, fish down to hole and finish.


Perfect. How exactly do you drill directly into the box though?


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## Cletis

*no*

I don't. Just through top plate, then fish down to box hole.


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## McClary’s Electrical

Dennis Alwon said:


> That is true when there is a builder involved. Go back to the op. I don't believe there is construction going on but rather a rewire is called for. Now if you think cutting holes in every spot an outlet is needed is a better job then go for it. I would fire my guys for doing that.
> 
> Ben you started this with statements that smart electrician .... Insinuating that others are dumb. Then you went on with every house has fire block-- that is not true--Almost every home in this area does not have fire block unless the studs are longer than 8'. Then you say my statement is BS about what I said I can do. FYI, my worker who is now on his own got a kick out of that as I told him what you said. He said we did it all the time--
> 
> Because you never saw a wall without fire block you call someone else crazy. The comment about balloon framing was there only to tell you there were more processes to building homes then you are stating. The op is wiring an older home that is all we know. We don't know roof pitch etc.
> 
> So perhaps you don't see this as you being negative and condescending but I do.


Dennis, I agree 100%. Even with fire blocking, I have gone from attic through wall, to crawlspace with no damage. It just takes skill that evidentally he can't even fathom.


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## Bkessler

The fine line in the sand is how much time do you spend to fish the wire opposed to just opening up the wall. The last complete rewire I did I changed everything to smart boxes and the fragile plaster crumbled pretty bad. It was only $1100 to repair and paint all the plaster. Which was dirt cheap compared to if I'd used the existing boxes and spent the time to fish new wires to everything without doing any damage. I could have done it. But it wasn't in the my or the customers best interest.


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## B W E

mcclary's electrical said:


> Dennis, I agree 100%. Even with fire blocking, I have gone from attic through wall, to crawlspace with no damage. It just takes skill that evidentally he can't even fathom.


So, when you have little to no attic space, as is the case of the OP, how exactly do you drill through a top plate, fireblock, sill plate, and through insulation? Please, teach me. Seriously. It's one thing to say "yah yah, I do it all the time... Blah blah blah". Yet quite another for you to describe the process. So let's hear it. Or, do you also have nothing to prove?


----------



## thegoldenboy

CESnc said:


> a week ago a potential customer asked me to give him an estimate to rewire his entire house. this includes upgrading the service to 200A. does anyone who has done a whole house rewire know about how much this would cost in labor. the house is 1000 sq ft and has an attic. crawl space is not to accessible





CESnc said:


> through the attic is pretty accessible. the eaves of the house are about 2 ft wide so a right angle drill would get into the exterior walls somewhat easier but ive always ran into unforseen probs fishing into existing exterior walls





CESnc said:


> this one is still wired but with no ground so the homeowner wants to rewire. im not arguing cuz its money in my pocket





CESnc said:


> reusing boxes that are there. it has metal boxes with clamps. he wants me to open up the least amount of walls as possible which means ill have to cut a hole at every device pretty much then ill fish the wires from the attic





CESnc said:


> Existing wire is 1st gen romex which is stapled. How am I supposed 2 use it 2 pull new wire





B W E said:


> So, when you have little to no attic space, as is the case of the OP, how exactly do you drill through a top plate, fireblock, sill plate, and through insulation? Please, teach me. Seriously. It's one thing to say "yah yah, I do it all the time... Blah blah blah". Yet quite another for you to describe the process. So let's hear it. Or, do you also have nothing to prove?


As is the case of the OP? The OP never put any of those details out there. As much detail as we have is the wiring method being used and the crawlspace is a bitch to get into. 

The wall coverings haven't been established. 
The age of the house hasn't been established.
The type of framing hasn't been established. 
The presence or absence of blockers hasn't been established. 
Whether or not the OP is an Electrician hasn't been established.

So your above details are speculation and nothing more, at this point. 

And honestly, what experienced person says this:



CESnc said:


> Existing wire is 1st gen romex which is stapled. How am I supposed 2 use it 2 pull new wire


Aside from stabbing a screwdriver through the wall and prying the staples out, it's not happening.

Honestly Ben, read the OPs original posts and then compare it to what you're saying. They are not one and the same.


----------



## joe cool

B W E said:


> So, when you have little to no attic space, as is the case of the OP, how exactly do you drill through a top plate, fireblock, sill plate, and through insulation? Please, teach me. Seriously. It's one thing to say "yah yah, I do it all the time... Blah blah blah". Yet quite another for you to describe the process. So let's hear it. Or, do you also have nothing to prove?


You get good at using the bit with the 5' flexible shaft. It is a slow, miserable, pain in the ass, but it can be done. Accidents happen with the flex bit. You cut out the old boxes so you can cut up your hands reaching into the walls. You lie on your belly in the attic with roofing nails digging into your back and insulation in your face while trying to attach some romex to the end of your flex bit. It can be done but I wouldn't ever want to rewire a whole house this way.

Can you get clever and pull the baseboards, do your wiring in that area?


----------



## Pfloyd527

this thread is out of control lol!!!


----------



## B W E

joe cool said:


> You get good at using the bit with the 5' flexible shaft. It is a slow, miserable, pain in the ass, but it can be done. Accidents happen with the flex bit. You cut out the old boxes so you can cut up your hands reaching into the walls. You lie on your belly in the attic with roofing nails digging into your back and insulation in your face while trying to attach some romex to the end of your flex bit. It can be done but I wouldn't ever want to rewire a whole house this way.
> 
> Can you get clever and pull the baseboards, do your wiring in that area?


How do you get over 8' of flexible bit through a top plate in an attic that has such little room that you have to revert to a right angle drill? And then, once you reach a fireblock (4 feet down, and your right angle drill is still unable to be held horizontally lengthwise because the flex bit still sticks out of the top plate at least 8"), you're able to continue down another 30" or so, and miraculously, through insulation, able to get it into the box?


----------



## B W E

thegoldenboy said:


> As is the case of the OP? The OP never put any of those details out there. As much detail as we have is the wiring method being used and the crawlspace is a bitch to get into.
> 
> The wall coverings haven't been established.
> The age of the house hasn't been established.
> The type of framing hasn't been established.
> The presence or absence of blockers hasn't been established.
> Whether or not the OP is an Electrician hasn't been established.
> 
> So your above details are speculation and nothing more, at this point.
> 
> And honestly, what experienced person says this:
> 
> Aside from stabbing a screwdriver through the wall and prying the staples out, it's not happening.
> 
> Honestly Ben, read the OPs original posts and then compare it to what you're saying. They are not one and the same.


My bad, mis-took "crawl space" with crawlING space.

As far as age of the house, at oldest, late 1920s. Not balloon framing... House it too small to be 2 story. Fireblocks are apparently a common obstacle for OP, since he mention having to deal with them before. Most houses have them on ext. walls.

And he isn't the guy that suggested using the old romex to pull in the new ones. He recognized what a stupid idea that was, but was a little nicer about pointing it out than we're used to. I think it was McClary that suggested it.

Still hoping someone can explain how you get a 5' flex bit on a right angle drill and drill through a top plate, fireblock, and insulation, into a metal box. (I think he said metal.... Doesn't really matter though).


----------



## B W E

mcclary's electrical said:


> Use all existing old wire to pull in new wire. You shouldn't need to drill much.


Yes, it was McClary.


----------



## joe cool

B W E said:


> Still hoping someone can explain how you get a 5' flex bit on a right angle drill and drill through a top plate, fireblock, and insulation, into a metal box. (I think he said metal.... Doesn't really matter though).


Remove box, doing as little damage to plaster possible. Drill up into attic through hole where box once was. Drill up, not down.


----------



## B W E

joe cool said:


> Remove box, doing as little damage to plaster possible. Drill up into attic through hole where box once was. Drill up, not down.


Ok, so we're talking about an 8' flexibit, or a 5 footer with an extension. I still think the chances of navigating through insulation, through a fire block, through more insulation, and through a double top plate, without coming back through the wall, or the siding, or penetrating the roof, are slim to none.

I can see it being pretty easy on an interior wall with no insulation for the bit to get tangles up in. I dunno, if you say it works, then cool. Too much risk of damage using those bits, especially going through the gauntlet of an exterior wall. Cut clean holes..... Drywaller labor is WAY cheaper than an electrician, especially for crappy attic work.


----------



## noarcflash

a piece of sheet rock cost 5 bucks. If you can tape and spakle a patch, how can you splice wire ?


----------



## macmikeman

noarcflash said:


> a piece of sheet rock cost 5 bucks. If you can tape and spakle a patch, how can you splice wire ?


What size piece are you talking? A full sheet of 1/2" used to cost that here, but it has gone up to 15 now.


----------



## McClary’s Electrical

B W E said:


> Yes, it was McClary.


 

When I typed that, I thought he couldn't drill top plate. A hole at the top of drywall would get him around top plate with no drilling. I seriously think you've never rewired a house.


----------



## McClary’s Electrical

B W E said:


> Ok, so we're talking about an 8' flexibit, or a 5 footer with an extension. I still think the chances of navigating through insulation, through a fire block, through more insulation, and through a double top plate, without coming back through the wall, or the siding, or penetrating the roof, are slim to none.
> 
> I can see it being pretty easy on an interior wall with no insulation for the bit to get tangles up in. I dunno, if you say it works, then cool. Too much risk of damage using those bits, especially going through the gauntlet of an exterior wall. Cut clean holes..... Drywaller labor is WAY cheaper than an electrician, especially for crappy attic work.


 

The houses I did it in were wood siding and wood work on the walls inside. Dywall patching was not an option. I think you've proven how new you are at this.


----------



## chicken steve

i rewired an entire old schoolhouse last year

3 story brick building, built in the late 1800's

no one single piece of horeshair plaster needed patching

this is_ not_ braggadocio, it's _simply_ as goldenboy states>>



> The wall coverings haven't been established.
> The age of the house hasn't been established.
> The type of framing hasn't been established.
> The presence or absence of blockers hasn't been established.


~CS~


----------



## MarkyMark

B W E said:


> How do you get over 8' of flexible bit through a top plate in an attic that has such little room that you have to revert to a right angle drill? And then, once you reach a fireblock (4 feet down, and your right angle drill is still unable to be held horizontally lengthwise because the flex bit still sticks out of the top plate at least 8"), you're able to continue down another 30" or so, and miraculously, through insulation, able to get it into the box?


2" hole saw to cut a big hole in the top plate. Flex bit is a peice of cake after that.


----------



## Dennis Alwon

MarkyMark said:


> 2" hole saw to cut a big hole in the top plate. Flex bit is a peice of cake after that.


Here is a great trick I learned the other day. Drill a 2.5" or so whole with a whole saw in a piece of plywood. Take the piece that was cut and stick it over the shaft of a flex bit. Now tape the wood so it sits just under the bit.

This will keep the bit from coming out the wall. May not work where their is insulation involved. They do make a tool to hold the bit straight.


----------



## mnelectrician

Rack-A-Tier also sells a ball with a hole in the center to keep the flex bit centered in the wall. Never used one but looks like it would work good as long as it didn't make cracks in the plaster from the vibration.


----------



## sureline

If you want to do a re-wire job like this, you need to be careful.

First, 
This type of Job requires customer signed agreement that all damages incurred by the rewire is the homeowners responsability. Cover your butt 1st.
Secondly,
You always want to give an estimate; Not a set price on this type of job.
Third,
With your non-guaranteed estimate, Bidding this job at your hourly rate plus materials is the way to go. I don't recommend charging too much for materials mark-up in this job either. You will do well with your labor cost. Especially in this economy.

GO IN LOW...BANG EM' BIG! ...lol


----------



## noarcflash

sureline said:


> GO IN LOW...BANG EM' BIG! ...lol


 
good way to get a reputation, and repeat business.


----------



## McClary’s Electrical

sureline said:


> go in low...bang em' big! ...lol


----------



## sureline

*Mcclary's Electrical...*Nice boat!

That's right! The professional working man should get what he deserves. 

*Noarcflash...*Keep working, and pleasing unappreciative people that just want things done for cheap. 
I've worked real hard to get to where I am at-- between work and education in this trade...There's no way I am going to work for cheap. I'm a professional liscensed electrician, NOT a backyard mechanic. I do what I need to do to get paid what I am worth.

Thanks.


----------



## noarcflash

Keep going in low, and banging them big, all you'll get is new customers from your penny saver ads, and not repeat business.

and keep stalking me around the internet, as it seems you have nothing else to do in life.


----------



## McClary’s Electrical

sureline said:


> Mcclary's Electrical...Nice boat!
> 
> That's right! The professional working man should get what he deserves.
> 
> Noarcflash...Keep working, and pleasing unappreciative people that just want things done for cheap.
> I've worked real hard to get to where I am at-- between work and education in this trade...There's no way I am going to work for cheap. I'm a professional liscensed electrician, NOT a backyard mechanic. I do what I need to do to get paid what I am worth.
> 
> Thanks.


The very small dingo is called original contract. The large boat's name is change order


----------



## Amish Electrician

Interesting idea, the disc / ball on the flex bit shaft.

I'm more than a little cynical about all of these claims to have run from attic to crawl without problems .... but I suppose anything's possible. I'm just too well aquainted with Murphy to have much hope. 

There's also a world of difference between doing one receptacle and redoing an entire house.

What is clear is that the OP has greatly underestimated the scale of the job.


----------



## BryanMD

Amish Electrician said:


> Your customer needs a MAJOR reality check .... and, I'm afraid, so do you.


Agreed.
I'm facing exactly this issue in the 1959 era rancher I recently bought with 1st G romex. 

But with no one wiling to pay me for the time to take out perfectly fine wire and devices and to do all that wall repair... I've decided to just add a couple of new 20 amp GP circuits to the house with one or two new/extra devices installed into each existing room. 

The kitchen and bathroom will get the full monty done when they get remodeled.
---

OP: Offer to do what the customer needs even if it costs him less than what he asked to be done and if all goes as it should then you should get this and the next 10 jobs this guy has any influence over. Focus on the 200A heavy up (and add'l circuits) he actually needs and as few of the R circuit changes as you can manage that with.

hth


----------



## 480sparky

mcclary's electrical said:


> The very small dingo is called original contract. The large boat's name is change order



Try this version:










And it's _dinghy_. Dingos are member of the canine family that roam around in Australia.:thumbsup:


----------



## MarkyMark

Good catch. "A dinghy ate my baby" doesn't quite have the same ring to it.


----------



## shockingdave

*cut out the old box and use old work boxes*

had a old house to re-wire, just cut out the old steel boxes(carefully) and used "old work" cut in boxes, any plaster damage was minimal. Once the box is out, the hole in the wall allowed me to use a "Mag Mouse" to pull a line for the new wire. Charged by the hour, and told the "HO" that there might be some damage. left the old in the wall, since it was stapled tight and couldn't pull it loose.


----------



## Amish Electrician

Good idea, Dave .... and one that ought to work for anything built after 1965.

The OP indicated an older house, and those typically had blocking halfway up the wall. That's what complicates things- a lot.


----------



## amptech

mcclary's electrical said:


> Use all existing old wire to pull in new wire. You shouldn't need to drill much.


That's funny.


----------



## amptech

Old house rewire jobs can be easy money or a slow trip through hell. I've had them from both ends of the spectrum and everything in between. There are hundreds of old homes in my area that are balloon framed. They are a rewiring dream. Full 2 story houses with walk-up attics where you can look straight down a stud bay in the attic(no top plate) and see the lights in the basement. A 100' box of jack chain and a romex spooler and you are set. Ceiling lights on the first floor can be tricky though. Every old house rewire presents it's own challenges. Some remedies are just going to be uglier than others. An old sparky once told me that big old rewire projects are a lot like eating an elephant: One bite at a time, keep chewing, maybe stop to throw up once in a while, and before you know it you're done and you may not be hungry for another one for a while.


----------



## CESnc

you know idk what your problem is. how you know im not a licensed electrician. ive worked in commercial for 8 years now im starting out on my own. did you know how to do everything at 1st. i think not. you learned from somebody. personally id rather learn from your mistakes than make my own


----------



## CESnc

thegoldenboy said:


> I was the first to use it in this thread. Not denying that, but I was not pointing fingers at you nor was I calling you out on it. I said it because I'm dead set convinced the OP is not a licensed electrician or a confident apprentice. See this from post #12:
> 
> If the customer gave the green light for opening up walls, the first thing I'd do is hit the bay with a grinder and take out entire sections out. If they didn't give the green light, I'd seek out the least damaging alternative to the finished surface. And what I quoted, doesn't sound like the way to approach the situation from the get go.


 you know idk what your problem is. how you know im not a licensed electrician. ive worked in commercial for 8 years now im starting out on my own. did you know how to do everything at 1st. i think not. you learned from somebody. personally id rather learn from your mistakes than make my ow


----------



## Bulldog1

CESnc said:


> you know idk what your problem is. how you know im not a licensed electrician. ive worked in commercial for 8 years now im starting out on my own. did you know how to do everything at 1st. i think not. you learned from somebody. personally id rather learn from your mistakes than make my ow



Residential remodel is not anything like wiring a new house. It takes years to learn all the tricks. Stick with it and you will be fine.


----------



## CESnc

i know it takes time. all i wanted was advice or tips that im sure yall know so i could give the customer the best price. i dont need the golden girl jumping all over me bout it accusing me of not be qualified.


----------



## shockingdave

Amish Electrician:
If the house is built pre-65 with fire blocking, I use my 72 in. 3/4 or 5/8 drill bit and drill up through the block, I know that opens the block and defeats it purpose to a point, but if you keep the bit small enough to just pull what you need, then the wire fills up the hole and still maintains the purpose of the block. If are unsure of a block being there, you can use an inspection camera, if you have one and run it up the wall and have a look, insulated outter walls can be a bear to penetrate, but it can be done. I have wired several houses like this, and they time, lots of time, if the home owner is willing to pay for the time it can be done.


----------



## B W E

Ok, so in theory, it's "possible", if you have nothing but time, and the HO has nothing but money to pay for your time, and the house was balloon framed, and you have an inspection camera, a 9' long flex bit, with a cinnamon raisin bagel taped to it to keep it centered, you could rewire ever receptacle in the house without cutting a single hole. 

What do you to to get from a switch to a light, on the first floor, without cutting holes? Or a receptacle under a window??

Gimme a few minutes to dig up an umbrella.... It's gonna start raining BS.


----------



## Cletis

*$100*

$100 per run x 200 (avg house) = $20,000


----------



## McClary’s Electrical

B W E said:


> Ok, so in theory, it's "possible", if you have nothing but time, and the HO has nothing but money to pay for your time, and the house was balloon framed, and you have an inspection camera, a 9' long flex bit, with a cinnamon raisin bagel taped to it to keep it centered, you could rewire ever receptacle in the house without cutting a single hole.
> 
> What do you to to get from a switch to a light, on the first floor, without cutting holes? Or a receptacle under a window??
> 
> Gimme a few minutes to dig up an umbrella.... It's gonna start raining BS.


I just added a light yesterday in a room that had a switched receptacle. I wired from switch, through top plate and over to new chandelier location without any damage. You're just a newby.


----------



## B W E

mcclary's electrical said:


> I just added a light yesterday in a room that had a switched receptacle. I wired from switch, through top plate and over to new chandelier location without any damage. You're just a newby.


You went from the switch or from the receptacle? unless the chandelier was in the same joist bay as the hole you went through in the top plate, it was a drop ceiling, or had attic space, im not buying it.


----------



## shockingdave

*switch to light*

wiremold if all else fails. use the same switch with a wire mold box over top, now you have acess to your power, and then up the wall and over to the light, use the existing light box with a wire mold box over it.


----------



## B W E

shockingdave said:


> wiremold if all else fails. use the same switch with a wire mold box over top, now you have acess to your power, and then up the wall and over to the light, use the existing light box with a wire mold box over it.


No no.... We are talkin about a whole house rewire. Apparently, "good" electricians can do it, the entire house, without cutting holes.


----------



## chicken steve

B W E said:


> No no.... We are talkin about a whole house rewire. Apparently, "good" electricians can do it, the entire house, without cutting holes.


 
i don't think _any_ electrician here said handholes were _not _in the old work equation BWE

~CS~


----------



## B W E

chicken steve said:


> i don't think any electrician here said handholes were not in the old work equation BWE
> 
> ~CS~


Actually, McClary, Goldenboy, and Dennis all implied (Dennis flat out said) a rewire can be done without cutting holes. I'm just curious how they do it when it comes to a receptacle under a window, or light fixtures.


----------



## chicken steve

B W E said:


> Actually, McClary, Goldenboy, and Dennis all implied (Dennis flat out said) a rewire can be done without cutting holes. I'm just curious how they do it when it comes to a receptacle under a window, or light fixtures.


 
i'm sure all would concede sheetrock _vs._ fish time is a consideration as well BWE

~CS~


----------



## B W E

chicken steve said:


> i'm sure all would concede sheetrock vs. fish time is a consideration as well BWE
> 
> ~CS~


Apparently it's not. It seems I don't have enough experience I know how to rewire a house without cutting holes. So hopefully McClary and Dennis and Goldenboy can enlighten us on how to rewire a house, with no holes, when it comes to receptacles under a window or ceiling light fixtures.


----------



## Dennis Alwon

B W E said:


> Actually, McClary, Goldenboy, and Dennis all implied (Dennis flat out said) a rewire can be done without cutting holes. I'm just curious how they do it when it comes to a receptacle under a window, or light fixtures.


Ben, Obviously if you don't have access from underneath you cannot get an outlet under the window without removing sheetrock or siding.

Also I never said you can rewire any house without any damage. I simply stated that I have been able to fish from a crawl space thru blocking and into the attic. 

There have been a lot of things said in this thread and it seems we are all talking about different things. I also said I have wired 8 cans in a ceiling that had a second floor above the room. There was no damage but I had access from below. Careful planning and it sometimes can be done without tearing up the sheetrock. Now I hope you don't call it BS again as it is a bit insulting. Maybe we just aren't communicating clearly.

When I did the 8 cans I cut the holes in the ceiling and used a diversibit between the joists. The hard part was from the crawl to the ceiling in the same bay as the cans. Now I did that in under a day with no damage. Perhaps you can cut the sheetrock, patch, mud and paint with less labor than that but I doubt it.

Undoubtedly there are times you must cut the rock.

I never said a total rewire can be done without holes in all situations.


----------



## chicken steve

B W E said:


> Apparently it's not. It seems I don't have enough experience I know how to rewire a house without cutting holes. .


as i said, i'm very much experienced at old work

so are _others _here

that said, the issue of _cost efficy_ is always on the table when dealing with customers BWE

i find it rather _odd _you have trouble with this concept


~CS~


----------



## thegoldenboy

B W E said:


> Apparently it's not. It seems I don't have enough experience I know how to rewire a house without cutting holes. So hopefully McClary and Dennis and Goldenboy can enlighten us on how to rewire a house, with no holes, when it comes to receptacles under a window or ceiling light fixtures.


I removed myself from this discussion because it was clear to me that you're a non believer of my pure and sheer awesomeness and my ability to put wire wherever I want it to go, without any effort at all.

I'm sorry not all Electricians were created equal and I happen to hang out with the elitists. The best of the best of the best of the rest. I do no wrong, I've never made a mistake. I'm the best, ask me and I'll tell you.

Now seriously...

Go read Post #31. More specifically, the last sentence of the first paragraph. Here, I'll even quote it for you:



> Did some walls have to go through some cosmetics after I was done, yes. But for the majority of the project, the existing finishes remain untouched.


So you can take my name out of your mouth when it comes to no holes in rewiring an entire house.

I should also say this: I bend pipe with my mind.


----------



## B W E

Dennis Alwon said:


> Ben, Obviously if you don't have access from underneath you cannot get an outlet under the window without removing sheetrock or siding.
> 
> Also I never said you can rewire any house without any damage. I simply stated that I have been able to fish from a crawl space thru blocking and into the attic.
> 
> There have been a lot of things said in this thread and it seems we are all talking about different things. I also said I have wired 8 cans in a ceiling that had a second floor above the room. There was no damage but I had access from below. Careful planning and it sometimes can be done without tearing up the sheetrock. Now I hope you don't call it BS again as it is a bit insulting. Maybe we just aren't communicating clearly.
> 
> When I did the 8 cans I cut the holes in the ceiling and used a diversibit between the joists. The hard part was from the crawl to the ceiling in the same bay as the cans. Now I did that in under a day with no damage. Perhaps you can cut the sheetrock, patch, mud and paint with less labor than that but I doubt it.
> 
> Undoubtedly there are times you must cut the rock.
> 
> I never said a total rewire can be done without holes in all situations.


I never said you said "in all situations.". The point is this. It is INEVITABLE that in a rewire situation, something WILL HAVE TO GET CUT. If that's the case, considering a drywaller is coming in after you anyways, why make the entire job a friggen nightmare, and try all this ridiculously time consuming black magic attic to receptacle through insulation and fireblocks, when instead, you can cut the time on the job in HALF but cutting neat holes where you need them? 

I guess it boils down to we all do it different ways, and as long as the customer is happy, do what you gotta do. I'm as big a fan as the next guy of not cutting, but I am also a realist, and sometimes (oftentimes) you need to cut. I would much rather cut a hole in drywall, where I have control over the amount of damage and the cost of repair, versus taking a chance with a flexibit, and potentially damage all kinds of stuff in the process.

Sure, some receptacles can be rewired without cutting. However, in the same job, there will be many that can't, as well as most ceiling fixtures. I think the general attitude throughout this thread was that those who have to cut holes are hacks or inexperienced. That is simply not the case.


----------



## McClary’s Electrical

B W E said:


> You went from the switch or from the receptacle? unless the chandelier was in the same joist bay as the hole you went through in the top plate, it was a drop ceiling, or had attic space, im not buying it.


 

The funny part was, I didn't even drill the top plate. I stuck my camera in the hole, got it focused on another hole in the top plate that only had one wire in it. I then stuck my stick through that hole. It only took about 30 seconds to get it dialed in. I then worked through my opening for the chandelier, stuck in two more sticks screwed together, pushed them over til I hit my stick I had through top plate. It already a piece of Pull string on the end with several loops and knots in it. It only took less than 30 seconds to get my hook stick to grab the vertical stick. Pulled that up while my helper pushed, tied on 14/2 and pulled it through top plate and over to chandelier location with no damage. Just used camera and sticks.


----------



## Bulldog1

Dennis Alwon said:


> Ben, Obviously if you don't have access from underneath you cannot get an outlet under the window without removing sheetrock or siding.
> 
> Also I never said you can rewire any house without any damage. I simply stated that I have been able to fish from a crawl space thru blocking and into the attic.
> 
> There have been a lot of things said in this thread and it seems we are all talking about different things. I also said I have wired 8 cans in a ceiling that had a second floor above the room. There was no damage but I had access from below. Careful planning and it sometimes can be done without tearing up the sheetrock. Now I hope you don't call it BS again as it is a bit insulting. Maybe we just aren't communicating clearly.
> 
> When I did the 8 cans I cut the holes in the ceiling and used a diversibit between the joists. The hard part was from the crawl to the ceiling in the same bay as the cans. Now I did that in under a day with no damage. Perhaps you can cut the sheetrock, patch, mud and paint with less labor than that but I doubt it.
> 
> Undoubtedly there are times you must cut the rock.
> 
> I never said a total rewire can be done without holes in all situations.


...................................


----------



## B W E

mcclary's electrical said:


> The funny part was, I didn't even drill the top plate. I stuck my camera in the hole, got it focused on another hole in the top plate that only had one wire in it. I then stuck my stick through that hole. It only took about 30 seconds to get it dialed in. I then worked through my opening for the chandelier, stuck in two more sticks screwed together, pushed them over til I hit my stick I had through top plate. It already a piece of Pull string on the end with several loops and knots in it. It only took less than 30 seconds to get my hook stick to grab the vertical stick. Pulled that up while my helper pushed, tied on 14/2 and pulled it through top plate and over to chandelier location with no damage. Just used camera and sticks.


Nice, so you got lucky with one of those miracle situations where the chandelier and the switch happened to be line up with the same stud bay.


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## chicken steve

i suppose the right toolage, and a man experienced in their use might _seem _ miraculous BWE.....

~CS~


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## B W E

chicken steve said:


> i suppose the right toolage, and a man experienced in their use might seem miraculous BWE.....
> 
> ~CS~


No. But thanks


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## BryanMD

CESnc said:


> ...the house is 1000 sq ft and has an attic.
> crawl space is *not too accessible*


Like everyone else I blew right past this vaguely described data point.

If the owner is willing to pony up the bucks needed to pay electrician rates to struggle from above in an attic that is at least as "not too accessible" as the crawl space (not to mention all the plaster work)... maybe the owner will prefer to have some far lower rate laborers in to dig out the crawl space to create better access.

Then when he needs to upgrade the plumbing and add some insulation...

hth

ps: and I still say to leave the existing receptacles be 
and instead to just add one or two grounded devices to each room.


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