# Irreversible splice without a crimper



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I am looking for an irreversible method to splice (2) #2Al conductors (or (2) #4 Cu) that is rated for grounding and doesn't require a crimper.

I've heard that they make a crimp that you hammer to close it, but I have never seen it.


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## samgregger (Jan 23, 2013)

Mabe use a set screw splice and grind the screws flush so you can't take them out? Probably up to the inspector if that would fly. All else fails, grab a Harbor Freight crimper.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

HackWork said:


> I am looking for an irreversible method to splice (2) #2Al conductors (or (2) #4 Cu) that is rated for grounding and doesn't require a crimper.
> 
> I've heard that they make a crimp that you hammer to close it, but I have never seen it.


Hmmm... just use a brass split bolt and solder it with a torch.:shifty:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Does harbor freight make a crimper that will work on a suitable crimp?


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

HackWork said:


> I am looking for an irreversible method to splice (2) #2Al conductors (or (2) #4 Cu) that is rated for grounding and doesn't require a crimper.
> 
> I've heard that they make a crimp that you hammer to close it, but I have never seen it.


Hammer crimps still need a tool to crimp.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

HackWork said:


> Does harbor freight make a crimper that will work on a suitable crimp?


Yes, they have a hexagonal die crimper for like $ 80. It goes down to #6 and up to 500, I think.

I bought one on Ebay probably 7 years ago and still use it often.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

HackWork said:


> Does harbor freight make a crimper that will work on a suitable crimp?


Its a total piece of crap but will do the job.
The whole kit is very small and cheap enough to put one on every truck.


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## WIsparky71 (Mar 7, 2015)

Exothermic welding would answer your question, but at that cost you might as well buy a crimper. 

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk


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## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

$60 on EBay and a $1.00 parallel grove crimp. It's time to spend a little money.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

There are inexpensive crimpers on Amazon but it was my understanding they're OK for battery cables etc., but they are not listed for grounding. The crimps and crimpers have to be listed for the purpose.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

splatz said:


> There are inexpensive crimpers on Amazon but it was my understanding they're OK for battery cables etc., but they are not listed for grounding. The crimps and crimpers have to be listed for the purpose.


"As you can see, these crimps are listed for grounding... What? Where's my crimper? Oh, I left that on the bedside table this morning, sorry!"


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I probably won't have an issue with the crimp not being listed for grounding as long as it looks like a good crimp and not some homeowner bullsh1t.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

I used one of these for years with no problems (about $200). http://ecat.burndy.com/Comergent/burndy/product/MRC840

That one was for CU, and I think they make one for AL, just at AL to the part#

I had the chance to see this one in action and if I was still working I think I'd consider spending the money for this.
http://www.ilsco.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/IDT-6-Manual.pdf

The 1st one is great for an inexpensive way to make a good crimp, but you have to watch out for proper usage.

The 2nd one is pricey (I think we got it for $2,500) and it should work well on any crimp required. Using this tool you get to use extended range, we used it to splice 500 W cable to 500 code cable using a 600 butt splice. Because of the rating of the crimper, this was a UL listed splice, pretty cool.


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## drewsserviceco (Aug 1, 2014)

HackWork said:


> Does harbor freight make a crimper that will work on a suitable crimp?



The one they have, and also sold by others on eBay, is for battery cables, the automotive type. I have it, for $49 why not, but have yet to use it. 

I've soldered ground wire, even at my own house, but that was out of laziness and don't make a habit out of it.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

I'd go with a quality used listed tool from eBay rather than a cheap new one. You can get something well under $100 on eBay. 

Crimps and crimp tools in general I'll spend a little extra on because things that look like they should be just fine / good enough are not, very small differences make the difference between a very good connection and a marginal connection.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

I think if I did residential services, I would keep a few different crimp sleeves and one of those small rotary die crimpers on the truck.
It will get used more often than you think and save enough time to well pay for itself.
The next "must have" for residential services is one of those 2 hole Burndy MD6. and a few insulated crimp sleeves, some W,X s to go along with it.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

splatz said:


> I'd go with a quality used listed tool from eBay rather than a cheap new one. You can get something well under $100 on eBay.
> 
> Crimps and crimp tools in general I'll spend a little extra on because things that look like they should be just fine / good enough are not, very small differences make the difference between a very good connection and a marginal connection.


It's only to appease code for irreversibly splicing the GEC, that's it. I don't need to do it often so I hate wasting money on something that will take up room. I'm trying to get rid of junk, not buy more.

If it wasn't getting inspected I would use a set screw barrel splice and hide it in the ceiling and it would be perfectly fine.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

If you don't have a Burndy m6 crimper , you are not an electrician.


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## MXer774 (Sep 1, 2014)

Hax, have a look at this. I have one and it works great. I have one issue with it. It does not stamp the lugs. 

https://www.amazon.com/Hydraulic-Terminal-Crimper-Battery-Crimping/dp/B00ZA2P3XM/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1503330336&sr=8-5&keywords=hydraulic+crimper


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

macmikeman said:


> If you don't have a Burndy m6 crimper , you are not an electrician.


I was going to buy one to splice services, but I like using setscrew reducers better.

For my type of work, I just don't need it.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MXer774 said:


> Hax, have a look at this. I have one and it works great. I have one issue with it. It does not stamp the lugs.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Hydraulic-Terminal-Crimper-Battery-Crimping/dp/B00ZA2P3XM/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1503330336&sr=8-5&keywords=hydraulic+crimper


Wow that's cheap. 

Do they make cramps for that to splice 2 4 gauge wires together?


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## MXer774 (Sep 1, 2014)

As in butt-splice? Yes sir they do, off memory it comes with dies for #10 thru 500MCM. There is also a smaller one which I have as well. 
They are so cheap I couldn't resist. They still function as new. No leaks yet. The dies are kinda cheap but what would one expect......lol


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Actually, I would prefer a crimp that keeps the conductors parallel to each other this way I can use it to extend wires and also to make a tap like I need to do for 2-family service GECs.

I still can't believe that splatz hasn't posted 3 or 4 Harbor Freight options by now


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## MXer774 (Sep 1, 2014)

Gotcha, I've done C-crimps before with one of them. I remember it didn't look pretty but it sure wasn't backing off.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I would prefer a smaller, non-hydraulic crimper that could do C-crimps on #4. 

I have no need for the force of a hydraulic and I would worry about one that only costs $24 exploding on me. :thumbsup:


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## Signal1 (Feb 10, 2016)

WIsparky71 said:


> Exothermic welding would answer your question, but at that cost you might as well buy a crimper.
> 
> Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk


What about a cadweld one shot. 
I think they are about 20 bucks, one you fire it you just bust off the ceramic mold with a hammer. Makes a nice clean solid connection.

https://www.erico.com/part.asp?part=PG11V


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Signal1 said:


> What about a cadweld one shot.
> I think they are about 20 bucks, one you fire it you just bust off the ceramic mold with a hammer. Makes a nice clean solid connection.
> 
> https://www.erico.com/part.asp?part=PG11V


His is a good idea. I was thinking about it a while back but I figured it would be too smoky for a residential situation. 

I did a lot of Cadwelding but I never got a chance to use the one shot. It looks pretty cool.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

HackWork said:


> I was going to buy one to splice services, but I like using setscrew reducers better.
> 
> For my type of work, I just don't need it.


Those crimp sleeves are way cheaper than setscrew anything.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Signal1 said:


> What about a cadweld one shot.
> I think they are about 20 bucks, one you fire it you just bust off the ceramic mold with a hammer. Makes a nice clean solid connection.
> 
> https://www.erico.com/part.asp?part=PG11V


Problem here is they go bad after a while.
Nothing is worse than running out of pennies and duct seal trying to make them work.


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## drewsserviceco (Aug 1, 2014)

MXer774 said:


> Hax, have a look at this. I have one and it works great. I have one issue with it. It does not stamp the lugs.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Hydraulic-Te...=1503330336&sr=8-5&keywords=hydraulic+crimper



That's the one I got and mentioned above, that exact one. Good to hear it works considering how low the price is.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

HackWork said:


> Actually, I would prefer a crimp that keeps the conductors parallel to each other this way I can use it to extend wires and also to make a tap like I need to do for 2-family service GECs.
> 
> I still can't believe that splatz hasn't posted 3 or 4 Harbor Freight options by now


https://www.specialized.net/mrc840-burndy-hytool-rotating-die-crimp-tool-8-4-0-awg-cu.html


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

drewsserviceco said:


> That's the one I got and mentioned above, that exact one. Good to hear it works considering how low the price is.


I dont think it will crimp #6 unless you turn the opposite one so that of them is flat.


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## Signal1 (Feb 10, 2016)

Southeast Power said:


> Problem here is they go bad after a while.
> Nothing is worse than running out of pennies and duct seal trying to make them work.


This is true, they do have a limited shelf life. I think the fuel powder absorbs moisture over time, making them harder to light off.

But I've had good results as long as they're not too old.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

splatz said:


> https://www.specialized.net/mrc840-burndy-hytool-rotating-die-crimp-tool-8-4-0-awg-cu.html


That's it, we're thru.


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## mitch65 (Mar 26, 2015)

These ones do #2 to #8 came in a kit
https://www.specialized.net/tools/b...compression-tool-ratchet-crimper-8-2-awg.html


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## MXer774 (Sep 1, 2014)

​


Southeast Power said:


> I dont think it will crimp #6 unless you turn the opposite one so that of them is flat.


Fake news!


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I still haven't found my new #19.99 crimper that will do #4 C-crimps.


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

HackWork said:


> I still haven't found my new #19.99 crimper that will do #4 C-crimps.


In your dreams. :laughing:


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

mitch65 said:


> These ones do #2 to #8 came in a kit
> https://www.specialized.net/tools/b...compression-tool-ratchet-crimper-8-2-awg.html


I missed one of these on Craigslist for $75, it still hurts to talk about it 

Hax, that one is nice and compact, popular with the treehugging sun worshipping solar installers, very good reviews, quality tool.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Bird dog said:


> In your dreams. :laughing:


If I could get a super duper hydraulic crimper for $24, I should be able to get a simple one to do C-crimps.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

splatz said:


> I missed one of these on Craigslist for $75, it still hurts to talk about it
> 
> Hax, that one is nice and compact, popular with the treehugging sun worshipping solar installers, very good reviews, quality tool.


Why is it when I want to spend money on a high quality product that I will use often, like a unibit, you tell me to buy $7 crap from Harbor Freight. But when I don't want to spend money because it's something I will hardly ever use, you tell me to buy $200 products?


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

I use what that other guy suggested Exothermic- Cadweld $50.00 I think I pay
You get a break if you buy a few to keep for next time


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

HackWork said:


> That's it, we're thru.


There, now you can be happy.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

HackWork said:


> Why is it when I want to spend money on a high quality product that I will use often, like a unibit, you tell me to buy $7 crap from Harbor Freight. But when I don't want to spend money because it's something I will hardly ever use, you tell me to buy $200 products?


You're just not thinking this through. One thing we all know is a hole is a hole is a hole. But a good squeezer, that's worth spending a few bucks on.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Let us journey to ebay and see what's there...


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

splatz said:


> There, now you can be happy.


Non-hydraulic.


splatz said:


> You're just not thinking this through. One thing we all know is a hole is a hole is a hole. But a good squeezer, that's worth spending a few bucks on.


No. I don't want to spend money on this. But I guess you know better.

If I needed a crimper for real work I would buy the Burndy MD6.


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## freeagnt54 (Aug 6, 2008)

HackWork said:


> I am looking for an irreversible method to splice (2) #2Al conductors (or (2) #4 Cu) that is rated for grounding and doesn't require a crimper.
> 
> I've heard that they make a crimp that you hammer to close it, but I have never seen it.


I think some supply houses have crimpers that you can rent by the day.


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## JoeSparky (Mar 25, 2010)

My regular supplier has a free loaner crimper if you buy the crimps from them. Hax, you have plenty of cheap and good options to choose from in this thread. Stop being such a cheap f**k. Stop using your lever nuts for a month and switch to the cheapo HD brand wirenuts and you'll save enough to buy the tool you want. :yes:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

There is this eternal battle going on between my inner laziness and cheapness.

When it comes to levernuts, laziness wins.

But this crimper, cheapness is always going to win because I will never use it. Spending $200 would be really stupid. 

There's gotta be a cheap crimper out there that will do C-crimps. I'll find it without you jerks!


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

HackWork said:


> There is this eternal battle going on between my inner laziness and cheapness.
> 
> When it comes to levernuts, laziness wins.
> 
> ...


Probably won't find a crimper that makes UL crimps for much less. If you are not really concerned about the UL part, why not use one of those hammer models that does battery cables?


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

This fits the cheap part.

https://www.amazon.com/Amzdeal-Crim...pons&keywords=hydraulic+dieless+crimper&psc=1


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Which C-crimps will that work with? Or the hammer one.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

HackWork said:


> Which C-crimps will that work with? Or the hammer one.


Neither that I know of, forgot you wanted to do the C-crimps.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

HackWork said:


> There is this eternal battle going on between my inner laziness and cheapness.
> 
> When it comes to levernuts, laziness wins.
> 
> ...


It's a shame Milwaukee doesn't make one so you could spend the $200 and feel like you got a bargain.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

splatz said:


> It's a shame Milwaukee doesn't make one so you could spend the $200 and feel like you got a bargain.


Whatcha talkin bout Willis?


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Whatcha talkin bout Willis?


What kind of money you looking at there? Need to buy the dies too?


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

hardworkingstiff said:


> What kind of money you looking at there? Need to buy the dies too?


I'm sure they are *big bucks!* 

All the places I've worked have had the Greenlee drill style versions but I see now that they have a similar inline style as well.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

HackWork said:


> I am looking for an irreversible method to splice *(2) #2Al* conductors (or (2) #4 Cu) that is rated for grounding and doesn't require a crimper.
> 
> I've heard that they make a crimp that you hammer to close it, but I have never seen it.


I gag at the thought of using aluminum in my GEC System.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

telsa said:


> I gag at the thought of using aluminum in my GEC System.


Yeah I've never been a fan.


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Yeah I've never been a fan.


2014 NEC 250.64 (A) has stipulations for AL GECs.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Smart people use AL GECs.

#2 AL costs about 1/3 the price of #4 copper. Often times you need quite a lot to get where you need to. 

I find it amusing that you slackers think aluminum is fine for the service and feeder conductors but have a problem with the GEC being aluminum.

FWIW, we are talking about the water pipe GEC. The one going outside to the ground rod is #6 copper due to being near the ground.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

HackWork said:


> Smart people use AL GECs.
> 
> #2 AL costs about 1/3 the price of #4 copper. Often times you need quite a lot to get where you need to.
> 
> ...


I have little problem with it inside to a pipe, WH jumper, etc but when I've seen it buried you normally see the remnants where it was clamped and the rest is long gone.

Costs have never really been a consideration to me as I tack on markup so the more the material the more I make.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MechanicalDVR said:


> I have little problem with it inside to a pipe, WH jumper, etc but when I've seen it buried you normally see the remnants where it was clamped and the rest is long gone.


 Code won't allow you to run it to the ground rods so it's a moot point. I am only talking about going thru a basement to a water pipe.



> Costs have never really been a consideration to me as I tack on markup so the more the material the more I make.


 I charge the higher amount as if I was using copper, then use the AL and pocket the money. The same way as how I charge the same for a panel change as the guys using Square D QO panels, but I install a Siemens and pocket the extra $100.

The customer doesn't know the difference. Boom batta my wallet's gettin fatta. :thumbup:


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

HackWork said:


> Code won't allow you to run it to the ground rods so it's a moot point. I am only talking about going thru a basement to a water pipe.
> 
> I charge the higher amount as if I was using copper, then use the AL and pocket the money. The same way as how I charge the same for a panel change as the guys using Square D QO panels, but I install a Siemens and pocket the extra $100.
> 
> The customer doesn't know the difference. Boom batta my wallet's gettin fatta. :thumbup:


Why Hax that is just so...so capitalistic of you. :laughing:


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

HackWork said:


> Code won't allow you to run it to the ground rods so it's a moot point. I am only talking about going thru a basement to a water pipe.
> 
> I charge the higher amount as if I was using copper, then use the AL and pocket the money. The same way as how I charge the same for a panel change as the guys using Square D QO panels, but I install a Siemens and pocket the extra $100.
> 
> The customer doesn't know the difference. Boom batta my wallet's gettin fatta. :thumbup:


I've seen plenty of communications locations on mil/gov installations that have used aluminum when they were built as temporary installs 40-50 years before I was there that were completely gone from corrosion. 

Call me a copper snob but for panel buss I like plated copper over aluminum for my own jobs that tended to be in saltwater environments.

I just find copper a nicer medium all around.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MechanicalDVR said:


> I've seen plenty of communications locations on mil/gov installations that have used aluminum when they were built as temporary installs 40-50 years before I was there that were completely gone from corrosion.
> 
> Call me a copper snob but for panel buss I like plated copper over aluminum for my own jobs that tended to be in saltwater environments.
> 
> I just find copper a nicer medium all around.


It wasn't that long ago that the people on this forum and it's predecessors complained about how bad it was to use aluminum for service entrance conductors. Now everyone including all of those copper snobs use aluminum SEC's.

If I am going to use aluminum for the conductors feeding the house, I fail to see how an unused cable running to the water pipe needs to be treated special.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Bird dog said:


> Why Hax that is just so...so capitalistic of you. :laughing:


I'm only in it for the profit. :thumbsup:


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

HackWork said:


> I'm only in it for the profit. :thumbsup:


Just charge more!


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

HackWork said:


> It wasn't that long ago that the people on this forum and it's predecessors complained about how bad it was to use aluminum for service entrance conductors. Now everyone including all of those copper snobs use aluminum SEC's.
> 
> If I am going to use aluminum for the conductors feeding the house, I fail to see how an unused cable running to the water pipe needs to be treated special.


Agreed, in most applications it's just fine!


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Just charge more!


I will charge more, but still use AL!


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

HackWork said:


> I will charge more, but still use AL!


To each his own.

Another thing I've never understood were guys that are side jobbing or new to their own business and say that they priced a tool into the job so they feel they got it for free.

To me it seems if you bought it before the job or with material money from the job either way it costs you the same out of pocket.

If you like working with all aluminum that's fine and don't need any other explanation.

I'd rather use a smaller diameter copper wire when I can. That's just me!


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Hax, I've been known to do exactly so, Al to bond the Water Service...

But, then, I run that puppy all the way to the Main Grounding Rail... and just don't run into the need to crimp.

As for CadWeld, criminy, I've seen time and materials wasted by guys that didn't get proper training.

Why anyone would attempt a CadWeld in very wet weather is beyond me.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MechanicalDVR said:


> To each his own.
> 
> Another thing I've never understood were guys that are side jobbing or new to their own business and say that they priced a tool into the job so they feel they got it for free.
> 
> ...


 I don't understand the correlation between your two stories. 

There is absolutely no benefit in using copper for the water pipe GEC, none. Especially when you used aluminum for the service conductors. If you want to use it, that's fine. But it's only to give you warm and fuzzy feelings.

Using aluminum is a smart way to make more money.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

telsa said:


> Hax, I've been known to do exactly so, Al to bond the Water Service...


 Cool, I will put you back in the smart person group.


> But, then, I run that puppy all the way to the Main Grounding Rail... and just don't run into the need to crimp.


 When installing a new main disconnect, such as a generator ATS, sometimes you need to extend the existing GEC that is running through the finished space in order to reach the new disco. That's where an irreversible splice is needed.
Also, for 2 family houses having a C-crimp will work for the GEC going to 2 panels. Like I said, it's a 2 or 3 time a year need.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

HackWork said:


> I don't understand the correlation between your two stories.
> 
> There is absolutely no benefit in using copper for the water pipe GEC, none. Especially when you used aluminum for the service conductors. If you want to use it, that's fine. But it's only to give you warm and fuzzy feelings.
> 
> Using aluminum is a smart way to make more money.


My point is whatever makes you feel better.

I find them both moot points.

If I price a service change at $2850 and you price it the same but use aluminum and make more in your pocket than me it doesn't matter to me because if I wasn't content with what I was making on the job that's solely my fault.

The other thing is if we both price it the same and the customer calls me and says he has a price from another guy could I beat that guys price and I ask is the bid apples for apples and they ask what I mean then say I'm planning on using all copper, they normally say they don't know let me call you back.

Typically when they call back they say the other guy was going to use aluminum and I tell them why I like copper I have normally gotten the job.

I've found aluminum framed doors and windows sell my jobs for me on beachfront homes or with boat owners.


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