# Another volley in the backstab/screw terminal war.



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Today's service call.... yard light out on barn. Found tripped breaker. Traced it down to this honey:










One other recep downstream.... nothing plugged into either one.


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## Bulldog1 (Oct 21, 2011)

Overtightened when installed. Was damaged from day one and finally failed. :thumbsup:


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## That's It? (Aug 31, 2011)

The white background is a nice touch.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

480sparky said:


> One other recep downstream.... nothing plugged into either one.


There has to be some kind of load or those receptacles would still look brand new..


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## niteshift (Nov 21, 2007)

I agree farmer had all his lectric thingys plugged in there.

You said barn, is there a chance it was the enviroment that helped in the corrosion problem on the receps and box.

If wiring was haphasardly pushed into box, over time objects bumping into it, last time it was bumped it grounded out, kaplouie. 
Course someone tried to fix it first before they called you.:whistling2:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

niteshift said:


> I agree farmer had all his lectric thingys plugged in there.


I would bet he had water heaters plugged in there during winter time for the farm animals..


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Again......... there was _no load downstream_. The next recep was 5 feet away, and that was the end of the run.

No heater because of no water. No water because there's no animals. He's retired.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Again......... there was _no load downstream_. The next recep was 5 feet away, and that was the end of the run.
> 
> No heater because of no water. No water because there's no animals. He's retired.


There HAS to be a load for the current to flow *AT ONE TIME*.. you are missing something..


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## niteshift (Nov 21, 2007)

480sparky said:


> Again......... there was _no load downstream_. The next recep was 5 feet away, and that was the end of the run.
> 
> No heater because of no water. No water because there's no animals. He's retired.


Well there you have it. He is retired, everyone knows how much "old" people wobble when they walk, he kept bumping into it with whatever it is he carries in that barn.:laughing:

By the way the "old" remark is just in fun. I know how it feels to be in that age group.:thumbup:


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## niteshift (Nov 21, 2007)

Moisture in first pic(green on wires) was a contributor, insulation melted back an inch or two, had to have some load on it. 

Another theory for the load is...
Lectric thievery. Bands of marauding lectriic users secretly stealing his power to recharge all thier lectric tractors.:laughing:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

B4T said:


> There HAS to be a load for the current to flow *AT ONE TIME*.. you are missing something..



There was NOTHING plugged in to EITHER receptacle.

How much clearer do I need to be?

There was NO LOAD on the line.

And probably nothing been's plugged in for 5-6 years.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

nice pics 480, very clear


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

480sparky said:


> There was NOTHING plugged in to EITHER receptacle.
> 
> How much clearer do I need to be?
> 
> ...


I am saying the damage was from when there *WAS* something plugged in..

The outlet didn't work now from sitting there all these years with corrosion on the conductors..


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## stuiec (Sep 25, 2010)

B4T said:


> I am saying the damage was from when there *WAS* something plugged in..
> 
> The outlet didn't work now from sitting there all these years with corrosion on the conductors..


 
looks like the bottom ground pin receptacle is broken off. Had to have been used at least once? Looks like it didn't wear a cover either?

Was the hot looped around the terminal and off to the last receptacle, or were there two wires landed?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

It had a metal cover. Both hots and both neutrals were terminated on the 4 screw terminals.... both grounds were under the one ground screw.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

stuiec said:


> looks like the bottom ground pin receptacle is broken off. Had to have been used at least once? Looks like it didn't wear a cover either?
> 
> Was the hot looped around the terminal and off to the last receptacle, or were there two wires landed?


Ken used the wrong words when he put his post together.. it happens..


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

480sparky said:


> It had a metal cover. Both hots and both neutrals were terminated on the 4 screw terminals.... both grounds were under the one ground screw.


Not pig-tailed:whistling2:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

backstay said:


> Not pig-tailed:whistling2:


Negative.

Well, it wasn't. It is now.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

When I first started using a megger to ferret out the real cause of occasional breaker and GFCI tripping, I'd occasionally pin the problem down to an outdoor receptacle that otherwise visually looked fine. Smash it open and you find bug carcasses, dirt, spider webby things, etc. If that stuff can build up conductive enough to occasionally trip a GFCI, I'm certain it can build up semi-conductive enough to start heating a receptacle like Ken's pics.


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

480sparky said:


> Today's service call.... yard light out on barn. Found tripped breaker. Traced it down to this honey:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Getting real good with your nice camera!!


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

It was the space heater...:no:


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

110 has a few illustrations of the right way and the wrong way to tighten conductors around terminal screws. We all know some people will mess that up. Usually the hook gets out of the plane is the cause of side screw melt downs. All in all though, screws do not give as much problems as backstabbed conductors coming lose out of the holes do.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Today's service call.... yard light out on barn. Found tripped breaker. Traced it down to this honey:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



:sleep1::sleep1:


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

I will tell ya what happend is that you may got bad storm in your area and got hit by lighting during bad storm.

The way 480 sparky show the photo only way you can do that much damage is if you have lighting strike or primary line drop on secondary side and blow it out like the photo.

Merci,
Marc


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

The damage could have been done 10 years ago.... a heavy enough load to cause the hots to melt off the recep.

It took this long for heat / cold cycles to finally push the broken hot into the ground.




BBQ said:


> :sleep1::sleep1:


What calibre is the gun being held to your head?

You could always go back to reading Rewires posts.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

The environment was somewhat corrosive. Look at all the dirt, dust, whatever. Probably also a bad connection. I doubt any device would last forever in those conditions.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

why is this in the code violation section?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Magnettica said:


> why is this in the code violation section?


It's the best fit I could think of.


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

480 are you saying that side-screw attachment is bad? It looks maybe like the previous installer ringed the conductor and hey, ringed conductors are bad. (as in, using your 14 gauge strippers when it's 12 gauge copper, and leaving that digmark).

Anyway, you know the farmer was using the plug a lot, considering the bottom ground is broken. I'm not a stab guy, so I'd just install it upside-down for him next time, and make sure to not knick the damend conductors.

I know y'all make fun of me, but I think I speak the truth.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

kaboler said:


> 480 are you saying that side-screw attachment is bad? It looks maybe like the previous installer ringed the conductor and hey, ringed conductors are bad. (as in, using your 14 gauge strippers when it's 12 gauge copper, and leaving that digmark).


I'd like to know how you can say it's ringed.



kaboler said:


> Anyway, you know the farmer was using the plug a lot, considering the bottom ground is broken.


You can install a recep with a broken ground...doesn't prove a thing.


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

Hot's broken where the insulation would stop. Ringed.

Unless you're a DFI and you leave a half inch bare hot.

As for the broken ground, hey, it wouldn't get broken if the guy wasn't using it. I see that in car plugs and hardressing salons.


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

But I mean, you're right. Looks like the hot touched the ground bar on the back of the recep and cooked off the ground.


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

Blame FP.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

kaboler said:


> Hot's broken where the insulation would stop. Ringed.........



News flash: _That's where I cut it_.


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

Ken, don't feed the troll.....:jester::laughing:


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## ilikepez (Mar 24, 2011)

Nice but I bet this guy was constantly ripping the plug out with the cord, and pulling the cord as far as it could go. Maybe he is one of those guys who bends the plug prongs out so it will stick really hard in the receptacle too. That plus the environment would cause problems no matter who made the receptacle.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Looks like you have , or had, a _"glowing connection"_ there 480

i don't think i've done a reno without seeing one myself

~CS~


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

There is something to be said for WR receptacles with stainless parts.

-John


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

480sparky said:


> There was NOTHING plugged in to EITHER receptacle.
> 
> How much clearer do I need to be?
> 
> ...


And it probably hasn't worked for 5 or 6 years.


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## Amish Electrician (Jan 2, 2010)

I don't think it's a question about any one detail of a receptacle's construction .... as much as it's a question of the entire receptacle, and the load.

You can get receptacles at every price from 50 cents to 50 dollars. All have the same UL listing. Yet, I can't believe that the cheapest ones are the same as the premium ones.

The UL tests for these things are pretty modest; it's almost amazing when something fails! For example, the test for the amp rating uses a rather modest load, for a rather brief period. They sure don't run 20 amps through them non-stop for an entire season, season after season, for twenty years.

Ditto for the plugs that go into the receptacles. We've all seen plugs that were little more than bits of foil, as well as plugs that could survive WW3.

You start pushing things, and something is eventually going to give. 

Ever wire a house? I doubt anyone has ever wired a house using different quality devices in different places, according to the anticipated use. Nope- we just went to the supply house and bought a case of the same ones. Maybe they were the cheapest, and maybe they were just a bit nicer. 

When we use the cheapest possible appliances, the cheapest possible devices, and design for the least possible work on our part .... are we really surprised when something craps out ten years later? It's not logical to blame the hardware when the real cause was a combination of poor design and customer abuse.


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## mamills1 (Jul 14, 2010)

Where was the yard light in the circuit in relation to this rect.?

Mike


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## Hippie (May 12, 2011)

MDShunk said:


> When I first started using a megger to ferret out the real cause of occasional breaker and GFCI tripping, I'd occasionally pin the problem down to an outdoor receptacle that otherwise visually looked fine. Smash it open and you find bug carcasses, dirt, spider webby things, etc. If that stuff can build up conductive enough to occasionally trip a GFCI, I'm certain it can build up semi-conductive enough to start heating a receptacle like Ken's pics.


If there was no load then this could very well be the case, I saw receptacles with nothing plugged in burn up lots of times from getting filled up with water and crap when I worked at perdue


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Bulldog1 said:


> Overtightened when installed. Was damaged from day one and finally failed. :thumbsup:


What was too tight?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

mamills1 said:


> Where was the yard light in the circuit in relation to this rect.?
> 
> Mike


Not relevant. The short was in the recep box. The yard light not working was only an indicator of a problem.


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## NoSparkSparky (Mar 5, 2012)

to back stab or not to back stab
that is the question

Well funny enough until today, I only ever trusted backstabs on the new ones(14ga only)....older style ones that accepted 12 or 14 ga, i see those fail alot.

However today I ran into my first modern 14ga only backstab plug that failed... neuts were nice and crispy.. when installing new plugs that accept only 14ga backstab, I backstab.. however today may change my tune... but IMO thats a 1 in a million with modern plugs.

cant say the same for the backstabs that took 12 or 14.. have found lots of failed ones from that era


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## electrictim510 (Sep 9, 2008)

edit... oops posted a brain fart.


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## electrictim510 (Sep 9, 2008)

NoSparkSparky said:


> to back stab or not to back stab
> that is the question
> 
> Well funny enough until today, I only ever trusted backstabs on the new ones(14ga only)....older style ones that accepted 12 or 14 ga, i see those fail alot.
> ...


I see backstabs fail all the time. I can usually call it everytime. Most homes in this region are wired so that they're backstabbed in and out of the plug most connections are no good. 

Most of the screw connections that I see fail look to be obviously done by dyi's or someone of the sort.

+1 vote against backstabs :thumbsup:


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