# Fire Stopping Holes



## Done Good (Dec 23, 2017)

I'm doing a rewire. Do I have to Firestop every hole that I bored through and existing hole that my new Romex is going thru? I'm just making sure what I need to fire caulk and what I don't. Thanks, any help today will be great because I have inspection This coming week.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

If you dont have an insulation guy coming through, then yeah, you need to firestop everything going from one floor to the next. Other than that, Im not sure on the specifics, but Im sure someone will chime in.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Done Good said:


> I'm doing a rewire. Do I have to Firestop every hole that I bored through and existing hole that my new Romex is going thru? I'm just making sure what I need to fire caulk and what I don't. Thanks, any help today will be great because I have inspection This coming week.


This is something for the GC to worry about.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

HackWork said:


> This is something for the GC to worry about.


A lot like cleaning up whatever kind of mess I leave.:laughing::thumbsup:


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

Done Good said:


> I'm doing a rewire. Do I have to Firestop every hole that I bored through and existing hole that my new Romex is going thru? I'm just making sure what I need to fire caulk and what I don't. Thanks, any help today will be great because I have inspection This coming week.


unless you excluded firestopping in your contract (which you should have), you might be on the hook for the new holes, since you made them. in the future, you might want to carefully consider what portion of the work (exactly) that you have agreed to do, either expressly or implicitly, by the nature of the work (complete and finished product).

patching, painting, fire proofing, firestopping, coring, structural modifications, unknown obstructions, moving utilities, . . . and a long list of other items that may or may not apply to the job are all things you should include or exclude in your agreement so you don't get left on the hook for doing them, or have a dispute about them.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

wildleg said:


> unless you excluded firestopping in your contract (which you should have), you might be on the hook for the new holes, since you made them. in the future, you might want to carefully consider what portion of the work (exactly) that you have agreed to do, either expressly or implicitly, by the nature of the work (complete and finished product).
> 
> patching, painting, fire proofing, firestopping, coring, structural modifications, unknown obstructions, moving utilities, . . . and a long list of other items that may or may not apply to the job are all things you should include or exclude in your agreement so you don't get left on the hook for doing them, or have a dispute about them.


:thumbsup:


> Due to the nature of this work, it is sometimes necessary to create openings in walls, ceilings or floors to gain
> access to concealed wiring, boxes, splices or to install new wiring. Unless noted otherwise, this proposal does not
> include patching, painting, concrete, forming, trenching, core drilling, venting, and sealing of roof and wall
> penetrations. Contractor recommends specialist contractors for the aforementioned activities.


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## active1 (Dec 29, 2009)

It really depends on your agreement with the GC or owner.
At the end of the day, you made the holes, and your cable is in them.
Your responsible for the holes.
If you wanted to cross your "T"'s it would be best to put in witting who is responsible.

In the worst case situation they will look for all people to blame.
Not just the one responsible for the fire.
But because XXXX Electric didn't fire stop these holes smoke penetrated thru the openings leading to the death of their client.

It might sound like crazy talk for resi.
Look at past commercial cases of fire death litigation.
Such as the MGM fire.
There was about 120 companies and 28 insurance providers that got out their checkbook for millions each.
Including Allied Conduit, Graybar, Otis Elevators, Dyna Electric, Alarmco, ....
Lack of fire stopping was one of the reasons for companies to payout.


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## StriickeN (Sep 11, 2017)

Pretty much just any holes in the top/bottom plates, not every single one.


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## Voltron (Sep 14, 2012)

It's not really fire stopping but rather draft stopping. You do need to fill anything vertical. Only horizontal if it is into/through a cold air return. But I wouldn't waste money on fire caulk, just use some fiberglass that is already laying around the job, or steal some from around the tin knockers returns/vents.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> This is something for the GC to worry about.


We fire foam all the holes we make.


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## Voltron (Sep 14, 2012)

HackWork said:


> This is something for the GC to worry about.


That's one of the first...or last things the inspector looks for around here. You would not pass inspection without it being 100%.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Voltron said:


> That's one of the first...or last things the inspector looks for around here. You would not pass inspection without it being 100%.


Not the electrical inspector. I am only bound by the NEC. 

We had a similar issue with gasketed boxes being required on outside walls. Electrical inspectors failed inspections for it, but then got their peepee's slapped by the state because it's not an electrical code and they can't fail us for it. 

It's required by some other building code and some other inspector has to look for it, so it's the GC's responsibility to seal around the electrical boxes on exterior walls.


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## Done Good (Dec 23, 2017)

> Due to the nature of this work, it is sometimes necessary to create openings in walls, ceilings or floors to gain
> access to concealed wiring, boxes, splices or to install new wiring. Unless noted otherwise, this proposal does not
> include patching, painting, concrete, forming, trenching, core drilling, venting, and sealing of roof and wall
> penetrations. Contractor recommends specialist contractors for the aforementioned activities.


[/QUOTE]

Thanks everybody for your quickly responses. I got done with the fire caulking today. And I definitely will write up agreements as this one for the future.

Also, i had a couple of big holes that old piping was going through ( piping is gone just the holes were there) that I used to run wire. I sprayed 3m fire block foam, is fire block foam as acceptable as fire caulk?


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

Done Good said:


> I sprayed 3m fire block foam, is fire block foam as acceptable as fire caulk?


Yes. As long as it meets whatever hour rating that is required by the building department.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> Not the electrical inspector. I am only bound by the NEC.
> 
> We had a similar issue with gasketed boxes being required on outside walls. Electrical inspectors failed inspections for it, but then got their peepee's slapped by the state because it's not an electrical code and they can't fail us for it.
> 
> It's required by some other building code and some other inspector has to look for it, so it's the GC's responsibility to seal around the electrical boxes on exterior walls.


We are still responsible to install products that comply with all codes. For instance, air tight recessed cans.

The NEC doesn't address location and placement of smoke detectors, yet we have to know those codes as well.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MTW said:


> We are still responsible to install products that comply with all codes. For instance, air tight recessed cans.


 Is that in the NEC? We are only bound by the NEC. The GC could build box around them if he wants.



> The NEC doesn't address location and placement of smoke detectors, yet we have to know those codes as well.


I install them where the plans say to, the same way that I install lights.

If they are not in the right position, the owner can pay extra to put them there. It's not my responsibility to follow any other code.

An electrical inspector can't fail the installation.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

smoke detector placement...NFPA 72 gets it right .


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

HackWork said:


> Is that in the NEC? We are only bound by the NEC. The GC could build box around them if he wants.
> 
> 
> I install them where the plans say to the same way that I install lights.
> ...


Years ago , Ohio went from one NFPA 72 edition to the next one
and I didn't realize it. I ended up getting red tagged cause the 
following edition (2010) required more than the previous and 
we have yet to adopt the 2013 which adds to it even more.

Anyhow , I followed the print and ended up being wrong cause 
many architects are Do-Do Birds.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

lighterup said:


> Years ago , Ohio went from one NFPA 72 edition to the next one
> and I didn't realize it. I ended up getting red tagged cause the
> following edition (2010) required more than the previous and
> we have yet to adopt the 2013 which adds to it even more.
> ...


Things might be different there. Maybe you have inspectors there that do multiple trades or maybe they just have more power. Here, the electrical inspectors can't fail and electrical installation for a non-electrical issue based out of any other code than the NEC.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> Is that in the NEC? We are only bound by the NEC. The GC could build box around them if he wants.
> 
> 
> I install them where the plans say to, the same way that I install lights.
> ...


:no:

A building or fire inspector can fail any non-compliant electrical work.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

HackWork said:


> Things might be different there. Maybe you have inspectors there that do multiple trades or maybe they just have more power. Here, the electrical inspectors can't fail and electrical installation for a non-electrical issue based out of any other code than the NEC.


In a nut shell we are under(2) categories

(1) The Ohio Building Code...commercial work

(2) The Ohio Residential Code ...residential

The E codes are on the Ohio Building & standards web site
and under those E (electrical) codes are listed the enforceable
publications .

The NEC and the NFPA are definitely two of them.

There are othe publications enforceable and useable in court
other than these...one is called The Ohio Contractors Reference
Manual and that publication covers a lot of business ethics as 
well as standards in construction.

Just FYI and alittle known fact by many here....the word 
"Permit" is not a legal term here and does not exist in
either code section.

"Certificate of Plan Approval" is what it is called. One needs 
a written drawing , a plan , to get legal approval to do an electrical
job...it's just easier to say "permit".

I mention this cause , in effect the blue print that gets stamped
for the job by the AHJ , essentially becomes the code for the
job. Incomplete electrical layouts may not show smoke detectors
exactly where they are supposed to be , so an AHJ will rubber
stamp .."_all smoke detectors to be installed per 2010 NFPA 72_"
...it's up to the EC to do his homework.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MTW said:


> :no:
> 
> A building or fire inspector can fail any non-compliant electrical work.


No, they can't fail an electrical permit, only the electrical inspector can and only for a violation of the NEC.

A building inspector can fail a building permit and a fire inspector can fail a fire permit. Both of those are pulled by the GC or owner and they are responsible to adhere to those codes.

As I explained with the gasketed box, the state told electrical inspectors that they can't fail for not using one on an exterior wall, only the building inspector can. And it's on the GC to make it passable, so if they don't want to pay the electrician to use the expensive boxes, the GC has to spray foam around the box themselves.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

I dont know about NJ, but here in CA, A fire inspector has a LOT of power. Ive actually got a lot of work due to that.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

TOOL_5150 said:


> I dont know about NJ, but here in CA, A fire inspector has a LOT of power. Ive actually got a lot of work due to that.


They have a lot of power here too. But they can't go on a job that only an electrical permit has been pulled. 

The only time I have dealt with a fire inspector is doing standyby generators and when installing exit signs. In both situations I had to pull a fire permit and I chose to take care of that responsibility for the customer (at their cost, of course).


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> No, they can't fail an electrical permit, only the electrical inspector can and only for a violation of the NEC.
> 
> A building inspector can fail a building permit and a fire inspector can fail a fire permit. Both of those are pulled by the GC or owner and they are responsible to adhere to those codes.
> 
> As I explained with the gasketed box, the state told electrical inspectors that they can't fail for not using one on an exterior wall, only the building inspector can. And it's on the GC to make it passable, so if they don't want to pay the electrician to use the expensive boxes, the GC has to spray foam around the box themselves.


:notworthy::notworthy: The all knowing Hax has spoken. :notworthy::notworthy:

If you drill through a truss for a wire, or chop out the bottom of a joist, the building inspector can and will fail you for that. Then you'll be pulling out that wire and the GC will backcharge you for the repair.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MTW said:


> :notworthy::notworthy: The all knowing Hax has spoken. :notworthy::notworthy:


 I am simply telling you what the state determined.


> If you drill through a truss for a wire, or chop out the bottom of a joist, the building inspector can and will fail you for that.


 The building inspector can’t fail an electrical permit. How many more times do I need to explain it to you? 



> Then you'll be pulling out that wire and the GC will backcharge you for the repair.


 Yes, in this instance the GC would be the one in trouble who would then come after me monetarily. I never said anything differently. 

What I was very clear about is that if I’m the only trade on the job and only an electrical permit is pulled, the electrical inspector can’t fail me for not sealing holes or cutting trusses. We are only bound by the electrical code, both the contractor and inspector. . 

If there is a general contractor on the job, it’s still not my responsibility to seal a hole. The general contractor Is responsible for that and will have the insulator do it.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> I am simply telling you what the state determined.
> The building inspector can’t fail an electrical permit. How many more times do I need to explain it to you?
> 
> Yes, in this instance the GC would be the one in trouble who would then come after me monetarily. I never said anything differently.
> ...


Ok, you win.  Maybe that's how it is in NJ but here we are obligated to follow all codes that apply to the work we do.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MTW said:


> Ok, you win.  Maybe that's how it is in NJ but here we are obligated to follow all codes that apply to the work we do.


 Did your licensing test include all of those codes?

Our test was only on the NEC, fire alarm, and business law. The same with electrical inspectors, only the electrical code, not other building or fire codes.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> Did your licensing test include all of those codes?
> 
> Our test was only on the NEC, fire alarm, and business law. The same with electrical inspectors, only the electrical code, not other building or fire codes.


No, but I'm still obligated to know every code that applies to the work I do. As mentioned, I'm supposed to know where I can and can't drill and how much wood I can remove from a joist or engineered lumber. I have to know where to install smoke detectors because most of the time I'm not working off a plan. I'm supposed to know where I need air tight cans and where I don't need them. I'm supposed to know that I need independent support for lights in a dropped ceiling in certain states and jurisdictions near me. And so it goes.


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## Signal1 (Feb 10, 2016)

Nec-300.21


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Signal1 said:


> Nec-300.21


I'm not in code reading mode, but I never saw that before and it seems to say that we would be required to seal holes. If so, then I was wrong about it not being an NEC requirement.


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## active1 (Dec 29, 2009)

Lot of electricians, carpenters, and laborers spent about 4 years fixing fire stopping on the Vegas strip when things were slow. Pads, blocks, buckets, & sausage tubes.
Drywall and core board for the carpenters. Nobody complained, because times were slow.

In this area fire stopping will fail an electrical inspection.
Ask me how I know.
I remember one hotel floor corridor that got double drywalled almost done when it was discovered they forgot to wrap the boxes with fire pads. They had to tear out the drywall so the electricians could fix it.
Some remodel projects we would have firestop on the cart during inspection time.
They would find some existing electrical hole missed. Or not like the way the junk dried.


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## active1 (Dec 29, 2009)

Also 770.26, 800.26, 820.26, 830.26 requires fire-stopping.


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