# Gfci Protection Change for the 2020



## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

How long until we are only allowed to use combo breakers for everything not 220 in the house?


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

five.five-six said:


> How long until we are only allowed to use combo breakers for everything not 220 in the house?


Right up until they start making double pole combo breakers.


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## joed9988 (May 20, 2018)

i just had an inspector fail me because i put gfic in a cabinet for a ejector pump he said someone could put paper towels in front of it so its not readily accessible. seems like this was not the intention of the code to me. also who is the inspector to predict what someone will do in the future i could put a gfi on a counter top and someone could put a toaster in front of it.


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## Signal1 (Feb 10, 2016)

joed9988 said:


> i just had an inspector fail me because i put gfic in a cabinet for a ejector pump he said someone could put paper towels in front of it so its not readily accessible. seems like this was not the intention of the code to me. also who is the inspector to predict what someone will do in the future i could put a gfi on a counter top and someone could put a toaster in front of it.


That's ridiculous.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

That has been an issue for awhile and some inspectors will call it inside a cabinet unless it is in the front of the cabinet


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I have to admit, I don't think the back of a cabinet is readily accessible either.

But I also don't like the idea of an ejector pump on a GFCI receptacle. A GFCI breaker is better and nothing is best.


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## JoeSparky (Mar 25, 2010)

One of my kitchen GFCI outlets is behind a roll of paper towels. All of the outlets in that room are not readily accessible because you need to open a door to access the room. I guess I will be red tagging myself:devil3:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

JoeSparky said:


> One of my kitchen GFCI outlets is behind a roll of paper towels. All of the outlets in that room are not readily accessible because you need to open a door to access the room. I guess I will be red tagging myself:devil3:


The funny thing is that a huge number of people who call me about something in the kitchen, bathroom, or outside not working simply do not know what a GFCI outlet is. I explain to them over the phone and tell them to go look. They find it and reset it. 

This is why I like the idea of GFCI breakers. Not only are they more solid, but it gives the homeowner one location to look for an issue instead of 10 different places. We all know about GFCI outlets hidden in basements or garages that feed outside outlets or even bathroom/kitchen outlets.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

joed9988 said:


> i just had an inspector fail me because i put gfic in a cabinet for a ejector pump he said someone could put paper towels in front of it so its not readily accessible. seems like this was not the intention of the code to me. also who is the inspector to predict what someone will do in the future i could put a gfi on a counter top and someone could put a toaster in front of it.


One of the main reasons for not wanting a GFCI device inside a cabinet is that the home owner might forget it is there. 
" They" want the GFCI tested on a regular basis which nobody does. If it is inside a cabinet then for sure nobody will test it.
It is suppose to be readily accessible. Then you have to read the NEC definition of readily accessible.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

HackWork said:


> The funny thing is that a huge number of people who call me about something in the kitchen, bathroom, or outside not working simply do not know what a GFCI outlet is. I explain to them over the phone and tell them to go look. They find it and reset it.
> 
> This is why I like the idea of GFCI breakers. Not only are they more solid, but it gives the homeowner one location to look for an issue instead of 10 different places. We all know about GFCI outlets hidden in basements or garages that feed outside outlets or even bathroom/kitchen outlets.


I like the breaker GFCI for the same reason. Many times you try to solve the problem over the phone but the homeowner does not understand. So you go out and find the original electrician over 25 years ago installed the GFCI receptacle at the outside location. Then the home owner gets upset for charging a service call when you were there less than 5 minutes.


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## JoeSparky (Mar 25, 2010)

HackWork said:


> The funny thing is that a huge number of people who call me about something in the kitchen, bathroom, or outside not working simply do not know what a GFCI outlet is. I explain to them over the phone and tell them to go look. They find it and reset it.
> 
> This is why I like the idea of GFCI breakers. Not only are they more solid, but it gives the homeowner one location to look for an issue instead of 10 different places. We all know about GFCI outlets hidden in basements or garages that feed outside outlets or even bathroom/kitchen outlets.


For 2020, GFCI outlets in Massachusetts pretty much will be going away. In their amendments, they deleted the long list of rooms and spaces in 210.12. This is how the MA amendment reads:



> _All 120 volt, single phase, 15 and 20 ampere branch circuits supplying outlets or devices installed in dwelling units shall be protected by any of the means described in 210.12(A)(1) through (A)(6)_


That effectively adds bathrooms and unfinished spaces and attached garages to the NEC list. On permitted jobs, that means it's cheaper to install dual function breakers where GFCI is required. That only leaves outside receptacles and out buildings where it may be more cost effective to install GFI receptacles instead of breakers.


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## JoeSparky (Mar 25, 2010)

kb1jb1 said:


> One of the main reasons for not wanting a GFCI device inside a cabinet is that the home owner might forget it is there.
> " They" want the GFCI tested on a regular basis which nobody does. If it is inside a cabinet then for sure nobody will test it.
> It is suppose to be readily accessible. Then you have to read the NEC definition of readily accessible.


Testing a GFCI is a non issue now. UL listing for GFCI outlets since mid 2015 has required them to be self testing and power to be removed from face and load terminals if it fails. At this point though, most of our GFCI requirements for residential can be met cheaper with a dual function AFCI/GFCI breaker anyways.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

JoeSparky said:


> For 2020, GFCI outlets in Massachusetts pretty much will be going away. In their amendments, they deleted the long list of rooms and spaces in 210.12. This is how the MA amendment reads:
> 
> That effectively adds bathrooms and unfinished spaces and attached garages to the NEC list. On permitted jobs, that means it's cheaper to install dual function breakers where GFCI is required. That only leaves outside receptacles and out buildings where it may be more cost effective to install GFI receptacles instead of breakers.


Wow, I don't have a clue what you are even talking about. Apparently there are a lot of changes for 2020, I should start looking into them :surprise:


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

15 hrs of fun next weekend for me. Time to print the amendments again.


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## JoeSparky (Mar 25, 2010)

HackWork said:


> Wow, I don't have a clue what you are even talking about. Apparently there are a lot of changes for 2020, I should start looking into them :surprise:


That one only applies to massachusetts. No new AFCI for 2020 in the NEC that I am aware of. GFCI on the other hand... i'm pretty sure the new requirements are: All basement receptacles including finished ones, Indoor damp or wet locations, outlets within 6' of a sink now measured through doors. Voltage/amperage requirement for GFCI is up to 250v/50a. This one gets the electric dryer, welder outlet and air compressor outlets in the basement.Electric Dryer and electric range if it is within 6' of a sink and your outside car charger outlet (regardless of what you call it:wink


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

JoeSparky said:


> For 2020, GFCI outlets in Massachusetts pretty much will be going away. In their amendments, they deleted the long list of rooms and spaces in 210.12. This is how the MA amendment reads:
> 
> That effectively adds bathrooms and unfinished spaces and attached garages to the NEC list. On permitted jobs, that means it's cheaper to install dual function breakers where GFCI is required. That only leaves outside receptacles and out buildings where it may be more cost effective to install GFI receptacles instead of breakers.


Wait, that's all now required to be AFCI protected in MA?


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

joed9988 said:


> i just had an inspector fail me because i put gfic in a cabinet for a ejector pump he said someone could put paper towels in front of it so its not readily accessible. seems like this was not the intention of the code to me. also who is the inspector to predict what someone will do in the future i could put a gfi on a counter top and someone could put a toaster in front of it.


I agree ... 



> Accessible, Readily (Readily Accessible).Capable of being reached quickly for operation, renewal, or inspections without requiring those to whom ready access is requisite to climb over or remove obstacles or to resort to portable ladders, and so forth.


Seems like a stretch to consider the contents of a cabinet "obstacles" in this context.


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## JoeSparky (Mar 25, 2010)

MTW said:


> Wait, that's all now required to be AFCI protected in MA?


Yep:sad: Pretty well all 15 & 20 amp 120v circuits in the house. Basements, bathrooms, attics and garages all require them now in MA. You can still use non defective breakers for the outside and any out buildings, pools etc. 
Go read up on all if the unnecessary 2020 GFCI protection:vs_mad: On the bright side, MA deleted 210.8(F)


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## shortcircuit2 (Jan 4, 2015)

Yes, I am glad Massachusetts deleted 210.8(F) requiring GFCI protection on outdoor outlets for dwellings.

This rule was basically brought on for GFCI protection of AC condensers from an incident.
But other outlets will also need GFCI such as...

Well pumps
Septic pumps
Geothermal pumps
Heat Pumps
Snow melting equipment
Heaters


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

shortcircuit2 said:


> Yes, I am glad Massachusetts deleted 210.8(F) requiring GFCI protection on outdoor outlets for dwellings.
> 
> This rule was basically brought on for GFCI protection of AC condensers from an incident.
> But other outlets will also need GFCI such as...
> ...




There is an exception for snow melting equipment




> 3)
> Outdoors
> 
> Exception to (3): Receptacles that are not readily accessible and are supplied by a branch circuit dedicated to electric snow-melting, deicing, or pipeline and vessel heating equipment shall be permitted to be instal⁠led in accordance with 426.28 or 427.22, as applicable.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

shortcircuit2 said:


> Yes, I am glad Massachusetts deleted 210.8(F) requiring GFCI protection on outdoor outlets for dwellings.
> 
> This rule was basically brought on for GFCI protection of AC condensers from an incident.
> But other outlets will also need GFCI such as...
> ...



Gee, I can't see any nuisance tripping from that at all.  More reliance on electronics that can and will fail. But the manufacturers sure are living large from all this.


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## JoeSparky (Mar 25, 2010)

MTW said:


> Gee, I can't see any nuisance tripping from that at all.  More reliance on electronics that can and will fail. But the manufacturers sure are living large from all this.


As usual, these new bul$hit code changes only apply to permitted jobs. So no change for you. It's business as usual for you Peter:whistling2:


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

JoeSparky said:


> As usual, these new bul$hit code changes only apply to permitted jobs. So no change for you. It's business as usual for you Peter:whistling2:


What do you mean by that? :shifty:


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## JoeSparky (Mar 25, 2010)

shortcircuit2 said:


> This rule was basically brought on for GFCI protection of AC condensers from an incident


It's a B.S. reason. The particular incident that made them want to ground fault protect AC condensers was a case of trespassing. An unqualified person wired the air conditioner condensor wrong causing the casing to be energized. A 12 year old boy jumped the fence of this person's house, touched the casing of the condenser and was electrocuted. 
This code change would not have prevented the boy's death because it was wired incorrectly in the first place. I don't think for one second the unqualified person who wired it would spend $100+ extra on the code compliant breaker. 
I bet there was no disconnect and romex air banged from the house, no connectors anywhere and ground wire cut off


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

JoeSparky said:


> It's a B.S. reason. The particular incident that made them want to ground fault protect AC condensers was a case of trespassing. An unqualified person wired the air conditioner condensor wrong causing the casing to be energized. A 12 year old boy jumped the fence of this person's house, touched the casing of the condenser and was electrocuted.
> This code change would not have prevented the boy's death because it was wired incorrectly in the first place. I don't think for one second the unqualified person who wired it would spend $100+ extra on the code compliant breaker.
> I bet there was no disconnect and romex air banged from the house, no connectors anywhere and ground wire cut off


This whole thing of changing the way millions of people do things, which becomes billions of people over time, just because one person got killed is not something that I can understand.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

JoeSparky said:


> I don't think for one second the unqualified person who wired it would spend $100+ extra on the code compliant breaker.
> I bet there was no disconnect and romex air banged from the *trailer*, no connectors anywhere and ground wire cut off


Fify 

Not only that, do you really think HVAC guys who do their own electrical are going to follow this code? Not a chance.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> This whole thing of changing the way millions of people do things, which becomes billions of people over time, just because one person got killed is not something that I can understand.


It's not supposed to make sense. It's an incident that was seized upon by crooked people to make a code rule to send even more money to manufacturers. I see lots of GFCI breakers being used for inspection then taken right back out.


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## shortcircuit2 (Jan 4, 2015)

Really? No permits? Pull the breaker out after inspection?

Can you say Negligent Homicide? Manslaughter? You will if someone gets hurt or killed by doing so.

Put the safety devices in. Be positive about it. Think of all the additional profit.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

shortcircuit2 said:


> Really? No permits? Pull the breaker out after inspection?
> 
> Can you say Negligent Homicide? Manslaughter? You will if someone gets hurt or killed by doing so.
> 
> Put the safety devices in. Be positive about it. Think of all the additional profit.


Overdramatic much? 

240 volt appliances have been and are continuing to be wired without GFCI protection for many decades now. Literally the entire country is wired without them save the few stupid areas that are already on the 2020 NEC, and even then the amount is miniscule since we're only a few months in. You mean to tell me suddenly all that is unsafe? :vs_laugh::vs_laugh:

As for "no permits", yes. Permits are always to be avoided if possible. No electrician ever gets permits for every job, in fact, usually it's the minority of them.

What happens to the additional profit the first time you get a call for a GFCI that is nuisance tripped?


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

I've been adding GFCI protection on ALL of my branch circuits for the last year now. Remember, code is just the minimum.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

Majewski said:


> I've been adding GFCI protection on ALL of my branch circuits for the last year now. Remember, code is just the minimum.


You also run all branch circuits in rigid conduit right? Anything else is just asking for a fire. Chicago only has it half right, EMT is dangerous too.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Switched said:


> You also run all branch circuits in rigid conduit right? Anything else is just asking for a fire. Chicago only has it half right, EMT is dangerous too.


PVC GRC, because I am not a low balling hack.


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## Kevin (Feb 14, 2017)

Majewski said:


> PVC GRC, because I am not a low balling hack.


Its safest when encased in concrete.

Sent from my new phone. Autocorrect may have changed stuff.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

Majewski said:


> PVC GRC, because I am not a low balling hack.


But what kind of pipe carries the liquid nitrogen?


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

CoolWill said:


> But what kind of pipe carries the liquid nitrogen?


I stole a bunch of straws from McDs and some blue painters tape from my last job. We should be good to go.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Switched said:


> I stole a bunch of straws from McDs and some blue painters tape from my last job. We should be good to go.


I also wrap all my device terminals in blue tape.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

Majewski said:


> I also wrap all my device terminals in blue tape.


I want to put that on the company website, so people know we are legit.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Switched said:


> I want to put that on the company website, so people know we are legit.


You have to! Otherwise Joe Blow will sell them a bill of goods, we have to show people how we are better!


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

Majewski said:


> You have to! Otherwise Joe Blow will sell them a bill of goods, we have to show people how we are better!


You think with a work vehicle like this people don't know I'm legit!


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Switched said:


> You think with a work vehicle like this people don't know I'm legit!


People know quality when they see it. They are probably intimidated by your company vehicle.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

Majewski said:


> People know quality when they see it. They are probably intimidated by your company vehicle.


Yeah, they are. When I roll up with all that plywood, they know ****s gonna get done. 

My crew


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Switched said:


> Yeah, they are. When I roll up with all that plywood, they know ****s gonna get done.
> 
> My crew


Is that Travis!? I miss him, best foreman I ever had.


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