# wet niche bonding



## rebel34 (Nov 27, 2007)

We got the junction box and will soon install the light, I will be running 1" PVC conduit from the forming shell to the junction box, my question is do I have to run a insulated #12 from the junction box the the light if so, do i run the wire outside the conduit or inside, and another thing won't there be a insulated green wire already in the light cord?


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

You need a #8CU bond wire run with the fixture cord in the PVC from the forming shell to the deck box.
Inside the forming shell the bond terminal MUST be encapsulated with a potting compound. This is a very specific compound. 3M makes it and any decent supply house will have it.



_*(2) Wiring Extending Directly to the Forming Shell* Conduit shall be installed from the forming shell to a junction box or other enclosure conforming to the requirements in 680.24. Conduit shall be rigid metal, intermediate metal, liquidtight flexible nonmetallic, or rigid nonmetallic. 

(a) Metal Conduit. Metal conduit shall be approved and shall be of brass or other approved corrosion-resistant metal. 

(b) Nonmetallic Conduit. Where a nonmetallic conduit is used, an 8 AWG insulated solid or stranded copper bonding jumper shall be installed in this conduit unless a listed low-voltage lighting system not requiring grounding is used. The bonding jumper shall be terminated in the forming shell, junction box or transformer enclosure, or ground-fault circuit-interrupter enclosure. The termination of the 8 AWG bonding jumper in the forming shell shall be covered with, or encapsulated in, a listed potting compound to protect the connection from the possible deteriorating effect of pool water._


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## rebel34 (Nov 27, 2007)

*wet niche*

Thanks for the help speedy, this is my first complete pool hook-up and I have learned alot on this forum, one more question about the junction box can i use a 12" metal nipple to connect the pvc conduit to the bottom of the juction box to provide support?


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

rebel34 said:


> ...one more question about the junction box can i use a 12" metal nipple to connect the pvc conduit to the bottom of the juction box to provide support?


I suppose you can, but it would have to be brass or bronze, and I would go longer than only 12". I would go the whole vertical part of the run to the box.

If you just use a separate +/-24" stub of galv as a dedicated "post" I think you would be better off.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

rebel34 said:


> Thanks for the help speedy, this is my first complete pool hook-up and I have learned alot on this forum, one more question about the junction box can i use a 12" metal nipple to connect the pvc conduit to the bottom of the juction box to provide support?


For the sake of leak-proofed-ness, I wouldn't transition from anything to anything. You do realize the conduit to a wet niche fixture is completely filled with pool water, by design? This is why the deck box must be above the water level.


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

I have never done a pool myself but I have done many filter rooms for new pools and have never seen anyone use anything other than brass piping for the wet niche conduit runs.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

On LI that's all we ever used. Once I left I haven't seen it since.


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

Speedy Petey said:


> On LI that's all we ever used. Once I left I haven't seen it since.


So your seeing non metalic used now? I've never seen anyone use flex as the article states.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

randomkiller said:


> I've never seen anyone use flex as the article states.


I have in the past seen NM Sealtite used and thought it was illegal. I never noticed it in the code until I read it closer. 
You know how we don't see things unless we are looking for them. (By "we" I mean men. :whistling2

I use PVC and pull the #8 bond.


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

Speedy Petey said:


> I have in the past seen NM Sealtite used and thought it was illegal. I never noticed it in the code until I read it closer.
> You know how we don't see things unless we are looking for them. (By "we" I mean men. :whistling2
> 
> I use PVC and pull the #8 bond.


You got the tunnel vision right, we are famous for that.
I would worry about landscapers or kids snapping off the pvc too much, I know it's probably 1/16th the cost of brass, especially now.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

1/16th??? I think you're probably being generous. 

I have not priced brass in many many years. I could not even tell you what it was 20 years ago. 

Anyone have a price on 1"R brass five footers?


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

I thought they were 8'?


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

If I recall correctly the ones I used were fives.
You could be right though. It's been a while.


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## Pierre Belarge (Feb 3, 2007)

We inspect hundreds of pools a year, and I have not seen copper/brass conduit installed in years. All pools installers in our area today are using PVC.


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

Pierre Belarge said:


> We inspect hundreds of pools a year, and I have not seen copper/brass conduit installed in years. All pools installers in our area today are using PVC.


 

So The new "wet Niche" Houseings now are PVC/Plastic.Bond and ground the fixture,same point.
PVC up and out, a bit of rigid for the support.

The bigger issue, the 9 sq" of pool water bonding.


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## Sparks 1942 (Feb 2, 2008)

Just got a price on 3/4" X 12' brass $136.50
Does the #8 have to be green, it is now a bonding jumper. It was a GEC in 02.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

_......._http://www.diychatroom.com/register.php/


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## preacher (Mar 15, 2008)

*Pool J-box*

We do hundreds of pools every year and use pvc. We always cement in a pressure treated 4x4 at the j-box and fasten the pvc to it. NEC does not permit pvc conduit as a sole means of support.


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## heel600 (Oct 31, 2007)

preacher said:


> We do hundreds of pools every year and use pvc. We always cement in a pressure treated 4x4 at the j-box and fasten the pvc to it. NEC does not permit pvc conduit as a sole means of support.


While you do more pools per year than I do, please give me the article that says that. (314.23e if I recall correctly says it's OK)

I had this discussion with many inspectors. With out breaking out my code book, as long as the box is supported within 18", is less that 100 Cu In, does not have a luminare, and is rated for it.


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## preacher (Mar 15, 2008)

*PVC as support*

The article you quoted 314.23E states in part" it shall be supported by two or more conduits threaded wrench tight into the enclosure or hubs." PVC is not threaded. Hope that helps.


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## Joe Mush (May 17, 2008)

leland said:


> So The new "wet Niche" Houseings now are PVC/Plastic.Bond and ground the fixture,same point.
> PVC up and out, a bit of rigid for the support.
> 
> The bigger issue, the 9 sq" of pool water bonding.


There is a bonding plate for bonding the pool water called Bond Safe 680 that is UL listed. (bondsafe680.com)


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## heel600 (Oct 31, 2007)

preacher said:


> The article you quoted 314.23E states in part" it shall be supported by two or more conduits threaded wrench tight into the enclosure or hubs." PVC is not threaded. Hope that helps.


but the fitting that I glue onto it is threaded.


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## preacher (Mar 15, 2008)

*Support for deck box*

But the code states theaded conduit tightened wrench tight. Mike Holts publications agrees that PVC is not acceptable and all of the inspectors in all the municipalities I know of will not accept pool j-boxes that are supported with only PVC. When I first started doing pools I was called on this, that's how I learned. Funny thing is I was a state electrical inspector and didn't know this. Guess we can always learn.


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## heel600 (Oct 31, 2007)

preacher said:


> But the code states theaded conduit tightened wrench tight. Mike Holts publications agrees that PVC is not acceptable and all of the inspectors in all the municipalities I know of will not accept pool j-boxes that are supported with only PVC. When I first started doing pools I was called on this, that's how I learned. Funny thing is I was a state electrical inspector and didn't know this. Guess we can always learn.


I only failed 1 pool for not supporting a deck box. I challenged him on it, and he couldn't give me an Art #.

The deck boxes I use had no means fo support, and in the instructions say nothing about support (Hayward I think). They're UL listed. So what would I do? Drill a hole in them and screw them into a post?


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## preacher (Mar 15, 2008)

*Support*

No, don't mount the pool box. It is supported by the conduit entering it. But PVC cannot be the sole support.


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## jwelectric (Sep 28, 2008)

heel600 said:


> While you do more pools per year than I do, please give me the article that says that. (314.23e if I recall correctly says it's OK)





heel600 said:


> I had this discussion with many inspectors. With out breaking out my code book, as long as the box is supported within 18", is less that 100 Cu In, does not have a luminare, and is rated for it.






preacher said:


> The article you quoted 314.23E states in part" it shall be supported by two or more conduits threaded wrench tight into the enclosure or hubs." PVC is not threaded. Hope that helps.




Who cares what 314 has to say about junction boxes? Why would anyone be looking at this section of the code?
The proper method for installing a junction box for a light on a pool can be found in 680.24.

Remember the front of the NEC says:
90.3 Code Arrangement.
This Code is divided into the introduction and nine chapters, as shown in Figure 90.3. Chapters 1, 2, 3, and 4 apply generally; Chapters 5, 6, and 7 apply to special occupancies, special equipment, or other special conditions. These latter chapters supplement or modify the general rules. Chapters 1 through 4 apply except as amended by Chapters 5, 6, and 7 for the particular conditions.

680.24 has verbiage that mandates the installation of the junction box for a pool light and this verbiage trumps any thing found in 314.
680 allows PVC so therefore anything about wrenches found in 314 is null and void.


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## Swift76 (Jul 1, 2021)

I am moving a deck box that was under the old diving board which was removed as well as the concrete deck around the pool; deck box currently sits about 5 feet from deep end of pool.

I want to remove the old deck box and place it in the landscape bed so it’s out of sight. The current conduit is brass from the niche to the current junction box. How do I transition from brass to PVC so it remains water tight?

Thanks,

Howard


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Call a licensed electrician who knows about pools and get the bonding updated and inspected. Last year someone around here extended the brass with PVC and the homeowner was electrocuted several months later. Pools and electricity are dangerous if not done correctly.


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