# Help me out....again. Pipe system bonding



## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

I went thru this a couple months ago but can't find my references.

*I'm sure* I can bond the water pipe and then run a jumper, in another location, from water to gas.

There is even a nice little digram/picture floating around that I'm not msart enough to save.

Hook me up?


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## SparkYZ (Jan 20, 2010)

I typically bond the cold water (cold water ground) then at the water heater, bond cold,hot and gas together.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

220/221 said:


> I went thru this a couple months ago but can't find my references.
> 
> *I'm sure* I can bond the water pipe and then run a jumper, in another location, from water to gas.
> 
> ...


*
250.104 Bonding of Piping Systems and Exposed Structural
Steel.
(A) Metal Water Piping.​*​​​​The metal water piping system​
shall be bonded as required in (A)(1), (A)(2), or (A)(3) of
this section. The bonding jumper(s) shall be installed in
accordance with 250.64(A), (B), and (E). The points of
attachment of the bonding jumper(s) shall be accessible.​*(1) General.​*​​​​Metal water piping system(s) installed in or
attached to a building or structure shall be bonded to the
service equipment enclosure, the grounded conductor at the
service, the grounding electrode conductor where of sufficient
size, or to the one or more grounding electrodes used.
The bonding jumper(s) shall be sized in accordance with Table​
250.66 except as permitted in 250.104(A)(2) and (A)(3).

*
(B) Other Metal Piping.​*​​​​If installed in, or attached to, a
building or structure, a metal piping system(s), including
gas piping, that is likely to become energized shall be
bonded to the service equipment enclosure; the grounded
conductor at the service; the grounding electrode conductor,
if of sufficient size; or to one or more grounding electrodes
used. The bonding conductor(s) or jumper(s) shall be
sized in accordance with 250.122, using the rating of the
circuit that is likely to energize the piping system(s). The
equipment grounding conductor for the circuit that is likely
to energize the piping shall be permitted to serve as the
bonding means. The points of attachment of the bonding
jumper(s) shall be accessible.​
Informational Note No. 1: Bonding all piping and metal​air ducts within the premises will provide additional safety.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

SparkYZ said:


> I typically bond the cold water (cold water ground) then at the water heater, bond cold,hot and gas together.


 
I do this in some cases, where it is logical (as is this one). The problem is that they are not used to seeing it done this way and there are several different things for them to interpet when reading this section.

I have learned what bonding jumper means but it seems like it's been up to me lately to teach them.

I've never had a red tag and a clearnace at the same time


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

I've always bonded it like kYZ unless the water and gas are closer to the panel outside. 



220/221 said:


> I've never had a red tag and a clearnace at the same time


WTF? Inspectors


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## Rockyd (Apr 22, 2007)

220/221 said:


> I do this in some cases, where it is logical (as is this one). The problem is that they are not used to seeing it done this way and there are several different things for them to interpet when reading this section.
> 
> I have learned what bonding jumper means but it seems like it's been up to me lately to teach them.
> 
> I've never had a red tag and a clearnace at the same time


 
WTF??? Another multi - idiot? The ground wire in the power connection will cover the bonding -

Author’s Comments:
• This exact text is contained in NFPA 54, National Fuel Gas Code.
• Because the equipment grounding (bonding) conductor for the circuit that may energize the piping can serve as the bonding means, no action is required by the electrical installer. Figure 250–152


http://www.mikeholt.com/videodisplaynew.php?pageid=4328


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

I see no code reference on that inspection note.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

erics37 said:


> I see no code reference on that inspection note.




You won't ever see a code reference here. They just write down something similar to what 220's inspector did.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Is this what you want?


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## JD_ (Jul 8, 2011)

erics37 said:


> I see no code reference on that inspection note.


I don't think I've ever gotten a reference out of a scottsdale inspector.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Is this what you want?


 
*THAT's* what I was looking for. THANK YOU!! I'm saving this mofo right now.

I found something close to it, printed it along with the text from 250.whatever and taped it to the panel cover. 


This is what I found yesterday.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

SparkYZ said:


> I typically bond the cold water (cold water ground) then at the water heater, bond cold,hot and gas together.


What size conductor do you use at the water heater, and where do you tie it?


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## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

Are you talking about tapping off of the wire to the gas or from the water pipe to the gas line? If coming off the water pipe and you are further than 5' away from point of entry I think that is not allowable. I'm presuming however that this is a house and not a commercial space.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

MF Dagger said:


> Are you talking about tapping off of the wire to the gas or from the water pipe to the gas line? If coming off the water pipe and you are further than 5' away from point of entry I think that is not allowable. I'm presuming however that this is a house and not a commercial space.


Tieing (bonding) together the gas and water together at the water heater.


I know it's allowed but the verbage is a bit unclear (big surprise).

It says 1) the gas piping has to be bonded to the panel, then it says 2) bonding jumpers have to be sized according to something something. You have to know what a bonding jumper is and again, the definition _tells _you but the picture _shows_ you.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

220/221 said:


> I went thru this a couple months ago but can't find my references.
> 
> *I'm sure* I can bond the water pipe and then run a jumper, in another location, from water to gas.
> 
> ...


Even if you have gas heating, if it is forced air heating, you will have some connection between the electrical system and the heating system. That electrical system will find itself to be "BONDED", to the electrical system if installed correctly. That is not to be confused with grounding.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

RIVETER said:


> Even if you have gas heating, if it is forced air heating, you will have some connection between the electrical system and the heating system. That electrical system will find itself to be "BONDED", to the electrical system if installed correctly. That is not to be confused with grounding.


 
I never noticed the section that says _the appliance egc acts as a bond_ but in this case, the furnace had no egc (old 2 wire).


I _might_ try to use that one some day.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

> (B) Other Metal Piping.
> If installed in, or attached to, a
> building or structure, a metal piping system(s), including
> gas piping, that is likely to become energized shall be
> ...


Unless you have a way to see the future you can not in any way convince me this piping is "likely" to become energized. In fact, it is likely that it will not ever become energized.


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## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

220/221 said:


> Tieing (bonding) together the gas and water together at the water heater.
> 
> 
> I know it's allowed but the verbage is a bit unclear (big surprise).
> ...


The picture shows things attaching to the water pipe at the point of entry. I don't feel that any water pipe after that first 5 feet can be used to jumper the gas line.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

220/221 said:


> I never noticed the section that says _the appliance egc acts as a bond_ but in this case, the furnace had no egc (old 2 wire).
> 
> 
> I _might_ try to use that one some day.


Not quite sure what you are saying but the fan, etc, has to have a maintained "bond", and that is to trip the breaker if a phase to ground fault occurs.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> Unless you have a way to see the future you can not in any way convince me this piping is "likely" to become energized. In fact, it is likely that it will not ever become energized.


That's a whole nother story. More poor wordsmanship by the NEC. Personally, I strive to make my piping systems *unlikely *to be energized.




RIVETER said:


> Not quite sure what you are saying but the fan, etc, has to have a maintained "bond", and that is to trip the breaker if a phase to ground fault occurs.


I'm saying in this case that, because it's supplied by old ungrounded romex, the fan doesn't have an EGC so there is no bond.




> The picture shows things attaching to the water pipe at the point of entry. I don't feel that any water pipe after that first 5 feet can be used to jumper the gas line.


I don't see any scale to that picture, or a water shutoff valve  

To me, it identifies what a bonding jumper is and the code section infers that you bond the pipe with a bonding jumper.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

220/221 said:


> That's a whole nother story. More poor wordsmanship by the NEC. Personally, I strive to make my piping systems *unlikely *to be energized.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You have to understand what is BOND...and what is GROUND.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

RIVETER said:


> You have to understand what is BOND...and what is GROUND.


 
Enlighten me.

I'm thinking that the water pipe is *bonded* to the neutral bus in the service panel via a *bonding jumper* and the gas pipe is *bonded* to the water pipe in the same fashion.

If the gas furnace had a *ground* wire, the gas piping would not need additional *bonding* because the ground serves as a* bond.*


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