# Double panel design question.



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

The meter main might have the ability to have double lugs.

For me, in your situation I just install 1 200A main panel and a 100A subpanel next to it. Typically I would use 40 space panels for both.

I put lighting loads and general receptacle circuits in the subpanel, while putting the bigger loads in the main panel.

This is an easy and inexpensive way to power lots of circuits without jamming them tightly into one panel.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Could you put a junction ahead of the main panel and use the feeder tap rule for the sub?


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

splatz said:


> Could you put a junction ahead of the main panel and use the feeder tap rule for the sub?


Use the 10 foot tap rules that work the best for this situation. 

I have done that at least twice I recall on resdentail side.,


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

I'd arrange the circuits so the secondary panel can be generator panel later if you want.


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## JohnJ65 (May 8, 2008)

The tap idea does sound nice. Since it would be protected by the main at the meter at 200 amps you could possibly put a 4" or 6" trough vertically between both panels and nipple into each. Then bring the main feed into the trough and use a polaris connector to splice the SER cable to two feeders for each panel. 
That way both are 200 amps. 

Is there any obvious code violations doing it that way?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Since this is your house, if you think you might need 200A, or anywhere near it, on both panels I would just install a 400 amp service which would be set up for 2 200A panels.

If you don't think you need that much, I still think the main panel and subpanel idea will give you the same end result for a lot less money and work.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

HackWork said:


> The meter main might have the ability to have double lugs.
> 
> For me, in your situation I just install 1 200A main panel and a 100A subpanel next to it. Typically I would use 40 space panels for both.
> 
> ...


I agree, except I use a 200 amp 40 space and a 100 amp 30 space. I don't think I've seen a 40 space 100 amp.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

backstay said:


> I agree, except I use a 200 amp 40 space and a 100 amp 30 space. I don't think I've seen a 40 space 100 amp.


Will typically use a 200A MLO as the sub. It's nice in a new situation if the panels match. Just personal preference.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

HackWork said:


> Will typically use a 200A MLO as the sub. It's nice in a new situation if the panels match. Just personal preference.


Not to mention the fact that you basically have to AFCI/GFCI everything in the whole house now..... 20/40 are now just 20's.....


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

why not use a sub feed lug kit?

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Siemens-Sub-Feed-Lugs-for-150A-225A-Load-Centers-ECLK2225/207050664


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Switched said:


> Not to mention the fact that you basically have to AFCI/GFCI everything in the whole house now..... 20/40 are now just 20's.....


I am not too suprising that will become standard pratice to put a double panels now due alot of dammed AFCI / GFCI's 

it is the simauir situation what we are facing now over here due we are required switched netural at the breaker location so both line and netural have to be open same time ( Philippines Electrical code ) so every circuit I hit typically use double pole breakers. 

there were few installment in some of the residentals have double panels installed.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

frenchelectrican said:


> I am not too suprising that will become standard pratice to put a double panels now due alot of dammed AFCI / GFCI's
> 
> it is the simauir situation what we are facing now over here due we are required switched netural at the breaker location so both line and netural have to be open same time ( Philippines Electrical code ) so every circuit I hit typically use double pole breakers.
> 
> there were few installment in some of the residentals have double panels installed.


So the neutral has its own buss bar? You have a link or picture for what you are describing?


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Switched said:


> So the neutral has its own buss bar? You have a link or picture for what you are describing?


I will give you a quick senicearo.,,

The L1 is the same as your side is but the instering twist here is your L2 is line of course but over here the L2 is netural so we do use the Americian panels with that style for a quite a while. 

the neutral lug in the panel that become our ground and yes it is bonded to the tub shell. 

Just dont go in three phase part that is very tricky on that. I been there with it. we use either 3 or 4 pole breaker depending if need neutral or not. ( in both wye and delta system ) 

I will try find a photo or link on that part.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

*NOTE::*

for my above comment please keep in your mind that is for resdentials but commercals we can go either way depending on the set up. 

but there is some talk is going on try to standarized the connection format to Americian or Japan style which we are working on it and safety board want to add the AFCI and GFCI due we get alot of substandard wiring on some of resdentails area. 

But once they do add it.,, the amounts of fires or other damage will be reduced but how much that I dont know yet. but I belive it can make the differnce there. 

sorry for getting off topic a little.,


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

frenchelectrican said:


> *NOTE::*
> 
> for my above comment please keep in your mind that is for resdentials but commercals we can go either way depending on the set up.
> 
> ...


I am all for the GFCI... The AFCI...... that is a whole other topic...

Being that you guys get materials from both regions, what do you thing would be better for Philippines as a standard?


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Switched said:


> I am all for the GFCI... The AFCI...... that is a whole other topic...


I dont mind the GFCI at all but AFCI that what raise our heads a bit.,,




Switched said:


> Being that you guys get materials from both regions, what do you thing would be better for Philippines as a standard?


most of the Filipio electricians rather use Americian materals due they are much better than Japan verison escpally with breakers ( the Japan verison AIC is very low and easy to blow apart espcally hard fault or any circuits over 400 volts ) 

99% of our circuits are 240 volts L-N just a hand full will be found in fancy motels which they do have some 120 volts circuits but that is different story .,,


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Bridgeport has a 3/4" fitting that accepts *6* Romex cables.

Bam.

Problem solved.

Plus.

You can always route a few circuits around, down and come up from below.

That can be quite a bit easier than messing around with an extra panel that you don't really want to set.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

telsa said:


> Bridgeport has a 3/4" fitting that accepts *6* Romex cables.
> 
> Bam.
> 
> ...


Having a second panel is always much nicer than jamming all those extra circuits into one panel, and using tandems when you need space for AFCIs.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

HackWork said:


> Having a second panel is always much nicer than jamming all those extra circuits into one panel, and using tandems when you need space for AFCIs.


This is a judgment call.

In Commercial builds, tandem panels are as common as dust... 

But you pay UP for the extra breaker spaces.


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## JohnJ65 (May 8, 2008)

I think the 200 amp main and 100 amp sub that HackWork has mentioned sound like the easiest and most cost effective solution, and it won't require a double lug setup which could void the listing. 

I agree that the AFCI and GFCI requirements will make the tandem slots useless in the future, and if you like to leave plenty of open slots for future growth like I do the use of double panels may become more common. 

I might order one of those sub feed kits just out of curiosity, I am guilty of over thinking things  

Thank you, John.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

JohnJ65 said:


> I think the 200 acmp main and 100 amp sub that HackWork has mentioned sound like the easiest and most cost effective solution, and it won't require a double lug setup which could void the listing.
> 
> I agree that the AFCI and GFCI requirements will make the tandem slots useless in the future, and if you like to leave plenty of open slots for future growth like I do the use of double panels may become more common.
> 
> ...


If the panels were in my house, the AFCI requirements would be useless now.


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## active1 (Dec 29, 2009)

I can think of 10 ways to accomplish what you want/need.

The factors are material cost, material availability, labor, space, POCO, and local codes.

1. 100a breaker in load center 1 feeding load center 2. 
For residential this is the simplest, most common way for a 200a needing more breaker space. The 100a 2P breaker shouldn't be much more than those darn AF breakers.

2. Splice box after the meter splitting off to 2 load centers 200a each.
The box or gutter may take some space, could need to be 3R. Need to also buy some sort of terminals to splice everything. As you said the meter would need to have a main.

3. Splice box after the meter splitting off to 2 load centers 100a each.
The box or gutter may take some space, could need to be 3R. Need to also buy some sort of terminals to splice everything. Your panels would only be 100a each, but you shouldn't need a meter main.

4. Meter main with 2 - 100a breakers. Don't know if it's available for your situation / approved by your POCO.

5. Meter main with 2 - 200a breakers feeding each panel. At that point your service would need to be sized at a 400a or least 320a.

6. Meter main with 1 200a breaker feeding a panel board with double lugs, feeding the next panel. Don't know of a load center / that you can do this. Besides the approved lugs on the panel, I wonder if you would even have the clearance to install several chairs in a row. That's were you get into commercial panel boards. They are available in this configuration. The panel costs more and think it's only available in bolt in breakers that also cost more. The plus is they are available in wider can to give you more wire / connector space.

7. Meter main with 1 200a breaker feeding a panel board feed thru lugs, feeding the next panel. Don't know of a load center / that you can do this. Besides the approved lugs on the panel, I wonder if you would even have the clearance to install several chairs in a row. That's were you get into commercial panel boards. They are available in this configuration. The panel costs more and think it's only available in bolt in breakers that also cost more. The plus is they are available in wider can to give you more wire / connector space.

8. Get one of those 200a 60 full space load centers. They are available now. But they cost 3-4 times a 40 space. Still only have a limited 14.5" width.

9. Use a load center subfeed kit. They have them in catalogs. Never seen one in the store, supply house, or used. Available in different amp ratings and wire sizes. Many not be available for all load centers. Personally I'm not comfortable with these, but that's just my opinion.

10. Use a few conduits from the top of your panel to a gutter / can to land all your circuits in. Install a ground bar, so you don't have to pull each EG. You can make it very nice with terminal blocks and ground bars or a rats nest.

#1 can be done in a short amount of time with minimum materials.
Ask yourself if want it to look like a panel board in the Bellagio, a track house, or custom home.


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## JoeSparky (Mar 25, 2010)

The method Hax mentioned would probably be the easiest. I have maybe twice in my life used a 200a socket (no main) with double barrel lugs on the load side of the socket. 2 separate 1 1/4" conduits out of it to 2 100a 30 ckt MCB panels side by side. You can have 6 main breakers if you want.
That setup is annoying when it comes to the GEC. Either have to jump both panels or run the water ground back outside to the meter socket.


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