# 3 Way Switch Requirements



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

It might be building code.


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

He's mixed up. Stairs is where you have to have it , or else an automatic means. But since he is mixed up, put in a motion detector switch for him, cause you know,,,,,,,, code and all......... 

its not in the NEC. Matter of fact, it doesn't even have to be in that room at all, you just need a switch for each room according to code. Put the switch for that room in the basement. And tell him to get an edumacation.


----------



## SWDweller (Dec 9, 2020)

sounds more like an inspector "honey do" the only requirement for 3 ways is for stairs and it is a bit iffy on the 3 way part.
He could be trying to help, or he could be imposing his concept that I know more than you do.

Your choice, either do it. or politely ask for the code section under the " I want to learn" concept.


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

There is no requirement in the nec for 3 way switches. In fact the switch for any room doesn't even need to be in the room. I had this argument years ago with an inspector and he just could not see it. Obviously it makes sense to have a switch at each door but not necessary.


----------



## funkking (May 27, 2020)

The inspector is a nice enough guy. He actually inspects for two cities that I do a lot of work in. And he refers me to customers from time to time. I'll probably just have to start keeping the 3 ways in mind for future jobs.


----------



## funkking (May 27, 2020)

I asked him for a code reference, this was his reply: 

"In article 210 it only really states stairways, I just like to see it in hallways multiple entrances etc. I'm always thinking about the little old lady that is eventually going to buy that house and have to walk down that dark hallway just common sense really also authority having jurisdiction Hope this helps"


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

funkking said:


> I asked him for a code reference, this was his reply:
> 
> "In article 210 it only really states stairways, *I just like to see it in hallways multiple entrances etc. I'm always thinking about the little old lady that is eventually going to buy that house and have to walk down that dark hallway just common sense really also* *authority having jurisdiction* Hope this helps"


Just like a police officer, different inspectors will handle a situation in different ways. But in the end, it comes down to "what is the law." The electrical code and in some respects, the building code, is the law the inspectors have to follow, and their only job. What I bolded in your statement is illegal. You have a rogue inspector, no different than a rogue cop, enforcing laws that don't exist. If your inspector is a big fan of woodworking at home, and inspects a new build with a 3-car oversized garage you installed only 3 receptacles in, on one 20a circuit - and there's this big extra "hobby/storage" area - would he bitch that it's just common sense to throw a couple of 240 volt 20 and 30a receptacles in there because "that's just common sense?" Would the extra outside people door with no switch for the garage lights ruffle his feathers, because that's how he enters and exits his own house on the regular and has a bug up his arse because there's no 3-way for the interior lights there? You know the guy and have a good rapport, but you need to figure out the most diplomatic way of informing him when he is crossing that line between the world he's living in, and the world he'd like to see. 

What I highlighted in red is a threat. It's tantamount to "It's good to be king." It's the verbal equivalent to the Glock in the policeman's holster. Realize that the nicest and most professional people can still be psychopaths on a power trip - and aren't content unless they know others are under their thumb. 

I know there's electrical and building codes regarding switched lights, but don't engage in any residential wiring professionally for a long time - but last I knew there was never any call for a switched light or receptacle in living rooms at all.


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

LGLS said:


> I know there's electrical and building codes regarding switched lights, but don't engage in any residential wiring professionally for a long time - but last I knew there was never any call for a switched light or receptacle in living rooms at all.


Incorrect. Every habital room in a dwelling is required to have a switched lighting outlet

Edit to add. 210.70 (A) (1)


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

funkking said:


> I asked him for a code reference, this was his reply:
> 
> "In article 210 it only really states stairways, I just like to see it in hallways multiple entrances etc. I'm always thinking about the little old lady that is eventually going to buy that house and have to walk down that dark hallway just common sense really also authority having jurisdiction Hope this helps"



art 210 does not state 3 way switches for stairways. The section is 210.70(A)(2)-- Theoretically I could have a sp switch and a light at the top and a sp switch to a light at the bottom of the stairs but who would do that. Just trying to make a point that the NEC does not call for 3 way switches

(2) Additional Locations. Additional lighting outlets shall be
installed in accordance with the following:
(1) At least one wall switch–controlled lighting outlet shall be
installed in hallways, stairways, attached garages, and
detached garages with electric power.
(2) For dwelling units, attached garages, and detached
garages with electric power, at least one wall switch–
controlled lighting outlet shall be installed to provide illumination
on the exterior side of outdoor entrances or
exits with grade-level access. A vehicle door in a garage
shall not be considered as an outdoor entrance or exit.
(3) *Where one or more lighting outlet(s) are installed for
interior stairways, there shall be a wall switch at each floor
level, and landing level that includes an entryway, to
control the lighting outlet(s) where the stairway between
floor levels has six risers or more.*
Exception to (A)(2)(1), (A)(2)(2), and (A)(2)(3): In hallways, in
stairways, and at outdoor entrances, remote, central, or automatic
control of lighting shall be permitted.


----------



## ohm it hertz (Dec 2, 2020)

I went over this with a customer who had just moved in to a new build house and asked me about 3 way switching because he didn't have any. Even I paused and couldn't recall the code section for it. Like others here I sat up late one night and tried to find _any_ reference to 3 way switching, and could not find a single line that _required_ it. Here I was installing 3 way switching in remodels _to meet code_, leaving money on the table while spending more than I needed to on materials. Obviously, I now charge extra for it and usually try to upsell 3/4/3 switching for larger kitchens and living rooms. I was trained by a master who installed 3 way switching standard in new builds. I'm realizing as I look back he really went above and beyond.


----------



## mofos be cray (Nov 14, 2016)

Dennis Alwon said:


> There is no requirement in the nec for 3 way switches. In fact the switch for any room doesn't even need to be in the room. I had this argument years ago with an inspector and he just could not see it. Obviously it makes sense to have a switch at each door but not necessary.


If I, as a client, had a house built and I couldn't switch on a light in a room from any entry point I would raise hell. I'm not saying 3way but if i came in the back door and couldn't turn on a light from the doorway..... it would be bad. Regardless of whether such an installation was compliant or not.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Anyone wiring spec homes knows that it's a race to the bottom.


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

mofos be cray said:


> If I, as a client, had a house built and I couldn't switch on a light in a room from any entry point I would raise hell. I'm not saying 3way but if i came in the back door and couldn't turn on a light from the doorway..... it would be bad. Regardless of whether such an installation was compliant or not.



Exactly that is why I said "who would do that". I am just making a point that the nec does not require 3 way switching.


----------



## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

mofos be cray said:


> If I, as a client, had a house built and I couldn't switch on a light in a room from any entry point I would raise hell. I'm not saying 3way but if i came in the back door and couldn't turn on a light from the doorway..... it would be bad. Regardless of whether such an installation was compliant or not.


My father in law had a house built recently and paid extra to have an entrance complete with a stairwell installed from the interior of the garage down to the basement. The idea was he could enter the house directly to the basement from the garage. The basement also has a main stairwell from inside the house. 

The extra stairwell had three ways as required, but when you got to the bottom of the stairwell, there was no way to turn on the basement lights. The basement lights were controlled by a switch at the bottom of the main stairwell only. So if he came in from this new garage entrance down to the basement, he had to walk through the basement in the dark to the main stairwell on the other side to turn on the lights. 

My ressi experience is minimal and only in custom homes and we always put in three ways if a room had more than one entrance so I assumed it was a code requirement. 

I searched though the CEC and OBC trying to find a rule to make the builder fix this in this brand new million dollar home, but realized there is no such code.


----------



## Quickservice (Apr 23, 2020)

funkking said:


> I just rewired a home. The only issue that came up during the inspection was that the living room ceiling fan light was not controlled by 3 way switches, since you can enter and exit the room from different locations.
> 
> In the end, the inspector ended up not flagging me for it, but said he wants to see it this way in the future. Is this actual code? If it is, I can't find it.


You have to love inspectors... they seem to delight in making up their own rules... BUT, I have learned to bite my tongue and humor them. As we have seen on many threads, they will even tell you to do stuff that is strictly against the NEC (Which is still 2017 here). In those cases I go along with their stupidity and then go back later and fix it right.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

eddy current said:


> My father in law had a house built recently and paid extra to have an entrance complete with a stairwell installed from the interior of the garage down to the basement. The idea was he could enter the house directly to the basement from the garage. The basement also has a main stairwell from inside the house.
> 
> The extra stairwell had three ways as required, but when you got to the bottom of the stairwell, there was no way to turn on the basement lights. The basement lights were controlled by a switch at the bottom of the main stairwell only. So if he came in from this new garage entrance down to the basement, he had to walk through the basement in the dark to the main stairwell on the other side to turn on the lights.
> 
> ...


Install wireless.

I recall seeing a code once where a room lighting switch was required at the bottom of the stairs but I can’t find it now.


----------



## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

99cents said:


> Install wireless.


I hardwired a three way switch for him. 

It just really bugged me that the builder did not do it as I always though it was required.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

eddy current said:


> I hardwired a three way switch for him.
> 
> It just really bugged me that the builder did not do it as I always though it was required.


It would bug me too. Even if it was a tiny studio condo, it’s somebody’s castle.

Most of us would put it in because it’s the right thing to do.


----------



## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

99cents said:


> It would bug me too. Even if it was a tiny studio condo, it’s somebody’s castle.
> 
> Most of us would put it in because it’s the right thing to do.


This is a big house, but it is not custom. 

It’s a cookie cutter style neighbourhood built as fast and as cheap as possible.

Of course if my father in law realized the switching issue before they built it, he could have requested it and paid for it as an extra but I bet their price would have been triple compared to paying someone to do it later.


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

We worked on a pretty upscale home many years ago and the owner did not want a 3 way switch in the upstairs hallway which was about 25-30' long. Turn the light on at the top of the stair and that was it. I hated it....so I added one, at my expense, toward the middle bedrooms at least it cut the distance in half. It should have had at least one 4 way.


----------



## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

LGLS said:


> Just like a police officer, different inspectors will handle a situation in different ways. But in the end, it comes down to "what is the law." The electrical code and in some respects, the building code, is the law the inspectors have to follow, and their only job. What I bolded in your statement is illegal. You have a rogue inspector, no different than a rogue cop, enforcing laws that don't exist. If your inspector is a big fan of woodworking at home, and inspects a new build with a 3-car oversized garage you installed only 3 receptacles in, on one 20a circuit - and there's this big extra "hobby/storage" area - would he bitch that it's just common sense to throw a couple of 240 volt 20 and 30a receptacles in there because "that's just common sense?" Would the extra outside people door with no switch for the garage lights ruffle his feathers, because that's how he enters and exits his own house on the regular and has a bug up his arse because there's no 3-way for the interior lights there? You know the guy and have a good rapport, but you need to figure out the most diplomatic way of informing him when he is crossing that line between the world he's living in, and the world he'd like to see.
> 
> What I highlighted in red is a threat. It's tantamount to "It's good to be king." It's the verbal equivalent to the Glock in the policeman's holster. Realize that the nicest and most professional people can still be psychopaths on a power trip - and aren't content unless they know others are under their thumb.
> 
> I know there's electrical and building codes regarding switched lights, but don't engage in any residential wiring professionally for a long time - but last I knew there was never any call for a switched light or receptacle in living rooms at all.


It would be cool if someone stated a u-tube channel and filmed inspections and called the inspectors out on some of their misconceptions. Just like they do with rogue cops.


----------



## GladMech (Sep 18, 2020)

This discussion makes a strong case for low voltage central lighting control. At 70 years old, my wife & I can't go all over the whole house (Did you remember the attic, basement, and garage, dear?) looking for lights left on. We really take for granted pushing the one "All Off" button.
You mean all houses aren't done that way? Why?


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

GladMech said:


> This discussion makes a strong case for low voltage central lighting control. At 70 years old, my wife & I can't go all over the whole house (Did you remember the attic, basement, and garage, dear?) looking for lights left on. We really take for granted pushing the one "All Off" button.
> You mean all houses aren't done that way? Why?


They are. It's called a main breaker.


----------



## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

macmikeman said:


> They are. It's called a main breaker.


Had a neighbour who though it would be a good idea to turn off the main while he went on vacation during the winter.
Pipes froze, and then burst…..it was a mess 😆


----------



## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

GladMech said:


> This discussion makes a strong case for low voltage central lighting control. At 70 years old, my wife & I can't go all over the whole house (Did you remember the attic, basement, and garage, dear?) looking for lights left on. We really take for granted pushing the one "All Off" button.
> You mean all houses aren't done that way? Why?


When my daughter was a teen and took over the basement, I wanted to wire a switch at the top of the stairs that controlled a bunch of contactors to turn off all the circuits down there, lights, receptacles etc.
She always left everything on


----------



## GladMech (Sep 18, 2020)

macmikeman said:


> They are. It's called a main breaker.


Yeah. But then the alarm clock and air conditioning don't work.


----------



## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

GladMech said:


> This discussion makes a strong case for low voltage central lighting control. At 70 years old, my wife & I can't go all over the whole house (Did you remember the attic, basement, and garage, dear?) looking for lights left on. We really take for granted pushing the one "All Off" button.
> You mean all houses aren't done that way? Why?


I agree as long as the relays are not up in the attic and are centralized where they are easy to get to. It would add extra cost to the build but it would be nice to have.


----------



## GladMech (Sep 18, 2020)

Central PLC control cabinet in basement.


----------



## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

GladMech said:


> This discussion makes a strong case for low voltage central lighting control. At 70 years old, my wife & I can't go all over the whole house (Did you remember the attic, basement, and garage, dear?) looking for lights left on. We really take for granted pushing the one "All Off" button.
> You mean all houses aren't done that way? Why?





macmikeman said:


> They are. It's called a main breaker.


It's called a Theme.
Get any of the new gadgets that allow lighting control via your phone and it will let you set a theme. 
In that theme you'll have everything just the way you want it every night.


----------



## cdslotz (Jun 10, 2008)

funkking said:


> I asked him for a code reference, this was his reply:
> 
> "In article 210 it only really states stairways, I just like to see it in hallways multiple entrances etc. I'm always thinking about the little old lady that is eventually going to buy that house and have to walk down that dark hallway just common sense really also authority having jurisdiction Hope this helps"


He sounds like a pretty good guy that you have a good relationship with. I wouldn't push this any more and move on. On the next one, be sure and take his suggestion and install 3-ways in the way he envisions, and then tell him all about it...then you can both have a laugh


----------



## funkking (May 27, 2020)

Just a couple days ago I installed a new ceiling fan in a living room that previously did not have any lighting or switches. And you can bet your ass I installed 3-way switches! Lol 

And we had a quick laugh


----------

