# Legal or Not, Where to find the Murray Main 3PH?



## joedreamliner787 (Sep 27, 2011)

Hi guys,
I walked into this small facility because the owner leases out the property to a small seafood restaurant. I got the call because the 3PH 200A main keeps tripping every 20min or so. Loads are fine not even going past 70A which tells me the main is most likely weak. This is 4 wire delta with a bastard leg on the center phase 208 to ground. When I opened the panel I had immediately notice the 250MCM bugs that was used to tap on the load side for another panel to the left of this which is a main lug rated for 200A. Is this even legal to do? I have never seen it. Also there was just about every style of breaker in this panel so we have already swapped out all breakers and are now Murray Type MP that I happen to have quite a bit of in my truck. Now the main has to be replaced (molded case) but I am having a hell of a time trying to locate it. The current one is a CA3200 which tells me that is a Cutlet Hammer? Any of you guys have any help or advice it would be greatly appreciated. 
P.S We all now swapping this panel out is probably best but the cost of labor to do pays for the breaker three times over. Thanks guys!


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## Spark Master (Jul 3, 2012)

I see no loads in that panel, besides the bugs. What's with the red wires?

So they bugged a single phase panel off a 3 phase panel? Certainly not the best for load balancing.


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## Tom45acp (Sep 6, 2011)

Lets see, Murray got bought out by Bryant, which was owned or purchased by Westinghouse who sold their breaker & panelboard line to Cutler Hammer. Hard to tell the players without a scorecard.

Buy the current catalog # breaker if it will fit or try a place that deals in used/obsolete breakers such as Denver Breaker Exchange.


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## joedreamliner787 (Sep 27, 2011)

Spark Master said:


> I see no loads in that panel, besides the bugs. What's with the red wires?
> 
> So they bugged a single phase panel off a 3 phase panel? Certainly not the best for load balancing.


Hi, thank you for the response. The previous electrican installed a few lighting cicruits and receptacles to the partitions that were built and all I can conclude is it's for future use or only had 12/3 mc on the truck. 

Yes he/she tapped the 3PH for the single phase panel. I moved the circuits around and I balanced the load between both panels. There is very little load in this panel. My problem is I can't seem to find the correct breaker for this panel.


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

Tom45acp said:


> Lets see, Murray got bought out by Bryant, which was owned or purchased by Westinghouse who sold their breaker & panelboard line to Cutler Hammer. Hard to tell the players without a scorecard.
> 
> Buy the current catalog # breaker if it will fit or try a place that deals in used/obsolete breakers such as Denver Breaker Exchange.


 
Murray is actually the same as Siemens/ITE

Bryant, Westinghouse and Cutler Hammer BR are the same


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## joedreamliner787 (Sep 27, 2011)

drspec said:


> Murray is actually the same as Siemens/ITE
> 
> Bryant, Westinghouse and Cutler Hammer BR are the same


Westinghouse is listed (Quickflag P) on this panel. It's odd because I know the Siemen's breakers fit however Siemens's is not allowed to be used because the Type-QP is not listed. We used the MP breakers.

I found a link at home depot that says the new cat number is 
LC3042B3200CU which pulls up a lot of Siemens :laughing:
*
*


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## Spark Master (Jul 3, 2012)

I believe, any replacement will not be UL rated. And possibly if something happens down the road, you wouldn't want your name connected to that mess.

I'm not sure what's acceptable in your area.

Get a new panel with sub-feed lugs.


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## joedreamliner787 (Sep 27, 2011)

Spark Master said:


> I believe, any replacement will not be UL rated. And possibly if something happens down the road, you wouldn't want your name connected to that mess.
> 
> I'm not sure what's acceptable in your area.
> 
> Get a new panel with sub-feed lugs.


It's really starting to look that way. I'm going to propose the following:
New 3PH Panel, New 100A 1PH Sub Panel (Main Lug) and I will use a 100AMP 
DBL pole off the 3PH panel (Phase A, C). I will have to find a New Murray panel so we can re-use the breakers. People well shrug at Murray but the new panels (Murray and Siemens) are made in the same factory. 
If the customer does not like the proposal I will have to find the original breaker for this panel and replace it. As long as it's listed it should be okay.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

The use of Polaris taps is very likely the only legal way to subfeed from this panel. 

Anyone else notice the unusual bus extension phasing in the diagram? 

If you get a new panel with a 200 amp main, you'll almost certainly need to extend the feeder wire. It'll be too short to meet the more modern bending space requirement. 

If they cannot be re-pulled easily, I'd use crimp splices and heat shrink. 

Also, the new panel will very likely be higher than the existing one.


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## Spark Master (Jul 3, 2012)

You can get a bottom main, with sub-feed lugs at the top.


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## joedreamliner787 (Sep 27, 2011)

micromind said:


> The use of Polaris taps is very likely the only legal way to subfeed from this panel.
> 
> Anyone else notice the unusual bus extension phasing in the diagram?
> 
> ...


I know for certain new feeders will be needed however the meter enclosure
is on the other side of the wall and I have about 50Feet of 250MCM in the truck. I also pulled the torque specs on the Polaris taps and turns out they were not even torqued. They were torqued 30In-Lbs under. I own a set of the Klein torque screwdrivers and bits (57034), and all three torque wrenches (57000, 57005,57010). I send them in every year to get re-cert.


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## joedreamliner787 (Sep 27, 2011)

Spark Master said:


> You can get a bottom main, with sub-feed lugs at the top.


I could but what about using a 100AMP sub feed with #4 Copper otherwise I will have to also run 250MCM to the sub. Right now those feeders going to the sub will be long enough to reach the meter on the other side and it will less cost for the customer.


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## Spark Master (Jul 3, 2012)

The sub should be 3 phase as well. Especially if it's a 208Y. I try to keep them balanced.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

joedreamliner787 said:


> I could but what about using a 100AMP sub feed with #4 Copper otherwise I will have to also run 250MCM to the sub. Right now those feeders going to the sub will be long enough to reach the meter on the other side and it will less cost for the customer.


If 100 amps is enough for the sub, I'd use a breaker in the main panel. 

As a side note, #4 CU is technically not legal for 100 amps, even though it's done all the time.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

Spark Master said:


> The sub should be 3 phase as well. Especially if it's a 208Y. I try to keep them balanced.


I agree, especially if it's a wye. But in this case, the service is 120/240∆, and if there are no 240 loads in the sub, then single phase is ok. 

I'd almost certainly use a 3ø sub if there were two or more 240 loads. Probably not for just one though.


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## Spark Master (Jul 3, 2012)

micromind said:


> I agree, especially if it's a wye. But in this case, the service is 120/240∆, and if there are no 240 loads in the sub, then single phase is ok.
> 
> I'd almost certainly use a 3ø sub if there were two or more 240 loads. Probably not for just one though.


 
I just noticed above, he said Delta.


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## Bootss (Dec 30, 2011)

Sell the building owner whatever panel replacements that are required and forget the wild goose chase.


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## Gold IV (May 12, 2013)

Do you want one thats legal or one that fits? I think I may have one that will fit (new). I can't check until tomorrow tho.


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## joedreamliner787 (Sep 27, 2011)

Gold IV said:


> Do you want one thats legal or one that fits? I think I may have one that will fit (new). I can't check until tomorrow tho.


We want to get one that's legal. I have a 3 Pole GE Molded case that would work but it can not be used in the panel. I appreciate your response. Hopefully someone can find a breaker part number on this.


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## joedreamliner787 (Sep 27, 2011)

micromind said:


> If 100 amps is enough for the sub, I'd use a breaker in the main panel.
> 
> As a side note, #4 CU is technically not legal for 100 amps, even though it's done all the time.


I know based on 310.16 2005 NEC it's right on the line of 100 amps. I'm sure I have #1 THHN in the shop 310.16(150A Rated). The problem is the business is now shut down until Tuesday due to this main. If we have to swap panels now I have to pull permits and I can not put him in service until inspection and here in CT that could mean weeks especially in the area where the work is being done. So they need a viable solution. I am putting the proposal together but I don't think it will fly. As I have told the owner, safety is always first but if we can install the correct main for this panel then it is perfectly safe.


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## joedreamliner787 (Sep 27, 2011)

micromind said:


> I agree, especially if it's a wye. But in this case, the service is 120/240∆, and if there are no 240 loads in the sub, then single phase is ok.
> 
> I'd almost certainly use a 3ø sub if there were two or more 240 loads. Probably not for just one though.


There are no 240 loads in the sub, strictly lighting and some receptacle circuits etc.


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## joedreamliner787 (Sep 27, 2011)

I also noticed in both panel none of the neutrals are bonded (which is correct for the sub). Meter is bonded but not the service panel, I put a call in the electrical inspector because some municipalities only allow the bonding at the meter and not both the meter and not main panel...


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

#2 isn't good for 125. Just saying. You can't use that chart for a 3 phase system anyways


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

joedreamliner787 said:


> I also noticed in both panel none of the neutrals are bonded (which is correct for the sub). Meter is bonded but not the service panel, I put a call in the electrical inspector because some municipalities only allow the bonding at the meter and not both the meter and not main panel...


Are you an apprentice by chance?


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## joedreamliner787 (Sep 27, 2011)

NolaTigaBait said:


> #2 isn't good for 125. Just saying. You can't use that chart for a 3 phase system anyways


I corrected the typos in the post. I was thinking about another post and of course another table for a dwelling. For the sub THHN #1 Will be used based on chart 310.16. No, I am not an apprentice. Licensed and insured.

In regards to the bonding of the meter enclosure this is our first time in this municipality and there are only 2 other municipalities that I know of in my state that do not allow us to bond the neutral at the service equipment panel. That point can be argued until you are blue in the face with the AHJ.


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## CTshockhazard (Aug 28, 2009)

joedreamliner787 said:


> In regards to the bonding of the meter enclosure this is our first time in this municipality and there are only 2 other municipalities that I know of in my state that do not allow us to bond the neutral at the service equipment panel. That point can be argued until you are blue in the face with the AHJ.


Whut? :001_huh: Really? 

Where?


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## Stickboy1375 (Jul 23, 2007)

joedreamliner787 said:


> That point can be argued until you are blue in the face with the AHJ.


You know who the AHJ in CT is, right?


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## Stickboy1375 (Jul 23, 2007)

joedreamliner787 said:


> Meter is bonded but not the service panel, I put a call in the electrical inspector because some municipalities only allow the bonding at the meter and not both the meter and not main panel...



This would only apply if the meter contained a disconnect.


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## joedreamliner787 (Sep 27, 2011)

Stickboy1375 said:


> This would only apply if the meter contained a disconnect.


Right and I have arugued this many times.


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## joedreamliner787 (Sep 27, 2011)

Stickboy1375 said:


> You know who the AHJ in CT is, right?


AHJ's can be fire marhal's, electrical inspectors
or even insurance companies (mostly fire alarm)
But anyone who inspects the electrical is the authority
having jurisdiction.


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## joedreamliner787 (Sep 27, 2011)

CTshockhazard said:


> Whut? :001_huh: Really?
> 
> Where?


Hamdens previous inspector and also Southingtons.
We pulled a permit in Hamden did a panel swap and 
He had use remove the bonding jumper. Again an
Argument and I even pulled the code book from
My van and his words were "I'm the ahj".
So we drafted up a letter that now says 
Please list any deviations from the NFPA 70.
Lets see if they sign it if I run into it again. 
That's why I didn't install a bonding jumper
In this panel because it was inspected prior
Many years ago. Some of the CT inspectors run
In circles and contradict themselves in the code.
Were getting off topic here. I still need to find
A main for this panel and if anyone has any cross
Listing info it would be much appreciated.


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## Stickboy1375 (Jul 23, 2007)

joedreamliner787 said:


> Hamdens previous inspector and also Southingtons.
> We pulled a permit in Hamden did a panel swap and
> He had use remove the bonding jumper. Again an
> Argument and I even pulled the code book from
> ...


To save you future headache, Bob Nuzzi is the AHJ for electrical work in CT when dealing with inspectors, fire marshals are completely different, but all inspectors in CT fall under Bob, so dont listen to them when you know you are right. just make the phone call.


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## joedreamliner787 (Sep 27, 2011)

Stickboy1375 said:


> To save you future headache, Bob Nuzzi is the AHJ for electrical work in CT when dealing with inspectors, fire marshals are completely different, but all inspectors in CT fall under Bob, so dont listen to them when you know you are right. just make the phone call.


Thank you! Is he out of Hartford?


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## CTshockhazard (Aug 28, 2009)

joedreamliner787 said:


> Hamden


Haha, I had a run in with that jackass back in '11 :laughing:, hope he's the one you mean by _previous_!




joedreamliner787 said:


> Thank you! Is he out of Hartford?


Last I knew Bob was out of the Middletown Public Safety Building just off I 91, but he's been trying to retire for a few years now.

The 3 times I've had to go over a town inspectors head Bob was very accommodating.

Nuzzi, Robert
860-685-8145



joedreamliner787 said:


> Were getting off topic here. I still need to find A main for this panel and if anyone has any cross
> Listing info it would be much appreciated.


Don't know if this helps but there's a 3P 200A Murray on Northeast Electric's site.

An EP3200.

Weird that it says plug in mounting and it's out of stock. 

$388.

https://www.needco.com/webapp/wcs/s...10151&storeId=10701&productId=54290&langId=-1


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## joedreamliner787 (Sep 27, 2011)

CTshockhazard said:


> Haha, I had a run in with that jackass back in '11 :laughing:, hope he's the one you mean by _previous_!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I will keep Bob's # on file. Thanks for his info! I finally found the breaker! The EP3200 is a plug in. After hours of searching and cross referencing the 
correct breaker is an MQJ3200. It's a molded case breaker. Again thanks for your help with Bob's info.


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## joedreamliner787 (Sep 27, 2011)

Guys in the pics I noticed the lugs are staring to bend from their 90 degree point. I know if we try and bend it, it will just snap. While I replace the main I might as well replace the lugs. Anyone know where I can find some? I tried EW and Master Electric and no one had any idea. Thanks guys.


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## Stickboy1375 (Jul 23, 2007)

CTshockhazard said:


> Last I knew Bob was out of the Middletown Public Safety Building just off I 91, but he's been trying to retire for a few years now.
> 
> The 3 times I've had to go over a town inspectors head Bob was very accommodating.
> 
> ...



I've met Bob a few times at CL&P's cut & reconnect meetings, he is very straight forward about getting these small town inspectors to lose the 'this is my town attitude' and just cite the code violations by the NEC.


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## donselec (May 7, 2011)

there looks to be room in that panel. how many circuits are in the sub?
can it be eliminated? why cant you put a breaker in to feed it??


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## joedreamliner787 (Sep 27, 2011)

donselec said:


> there looks to be room in that panel. how many circuits are in the sub?
> can it be eliminated? why cant you put a breaker in to feed it??


It's a 24CKT Sub panel. The taps are done it would be more trouble than it's
worth to remove the taps and put in a 100A sub breaker.


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