# Four conductors, two neutrals.



## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

Yes, ever since the AFCI requirements started. Definite labor saver.

I don't purchase, so I can't speak to price, but I suspect it is cost-effective, or my boss wouldn't keep using it.

Watch your box fill - need 22 cu. in. for #14 [ (1) 14-2-2, (2) 14-2] We usually use 20 cube boxes, so we have to use an oversize where the homeruns are.


----------



## a-bulb (Feb 13, 2008)

yeah I use it on all my roughs. It's called 14/2/2. It is expensive but saves alot of time. I also use it for running my lighting homeruns when wiring a lighting control system like litetouch or lutron homeworks. cuts down on your time cutting in your panels also.


----------



## jason007 (Apr 14, 2007)

weve used the 14/2/2 in houses for lighting circuits time savor indeed


----------



## corkers (Feb 27, 2008)

JohnJ0906 said:


> Yes, ever since the AFCI requirements started. Definite labor saver.


AFCI ???? sorry guys whats this


----------



## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

corkers said:


> AFCI ???? sorry guys whats this


No, really. Are you serious? This is a real question. It's just they've been around since the 1999 NEC.

OK, sorry corkers, I see now. You are from Australia. I hadn't seen your post in "Introductions" yet.

They are Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter breakers.


----------



## swedex (Mar 3, 2008)

*I love the Romex 12/2/2*

Its perfect for the kithcen's 2 required GFCI protected small appliance circuits. Since people plugs in motor loads such as blenders and such, you can not use a 12/3 multiwire circuit with only one neutral since the GFCI's would nuisance trip over fluctuations on the neutral vs the 2 phases. 12/2/2 let you use only one romex cable to solve for these 2 circuits without any problems at all. since each phase got its own separate neutral conductor, therefore the return in the neutral is equal to the output of the phase conductor and no tripping of the GFCI. It saves you time and $$$
And it is cheaper than running 2 x 12/2 to solve for the same situation.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

There is no problem with tripping GFCI receptacles when running a 12/3 the the 1st device (A GFCI for ckt1) and then splitting into 2 12/2 circuits. (Ckt 1 load & Ckt 2)


----------



## a-bulb (Feb 13, 2008)

swedex are you using Gfci breakers for sm appliance cir?


----------



## gilbequick (Oct 6, 2007)

If you used 12/2/2 for a small appliance circuit, you'd need at least a 24ci box. That's a pretty big single gang box. The fiber arlingtons I use only have 20.5ci.


----------



## french connection!! (Dec 13, 2007)

here in bay area California , I can't get 14/4 or 12/4 from my supplies anymore and they even told manufacture were not making then either .I liked to use those romex , perfect for afci , lighting 3way , 4way , kitchen , etc ...


----------



## swedex (Mar 3, 2008)

a-bulb said:


> swedex are you using Gfci breakers for sm appliance cir?


 
Actually no...I was using GFCI receptacles at the 2 required small appliance branch-circuits in the kitchen. Each one got its on dedicated 20A breaker as required and the first receptacle9GFCI) on each circuit has the incoming hot connected to the line side and all downstream regular receptacles(every 4 ft) are also protected connected on the load side. One branch circuit on each side of the sink. But since they would share the neutral and the neutral is onlu carrying the balance current between the 2 circuits, any uneven load...and it will trip the GFCI. thats why I love the 12/2/2 with that one...cost efficient and time efficient and less bulk with less romex to pull.


----------



## swedex (Mar 3, 2008)

gilbequick said:


> If you used 12/2/2 for a small appliance circuit, you'd need at least a 24ci box. That's a pretty big single gang box. The fiber arlingtons I use only have 20.5ci.


Actually...I can use extra deep carlon old work box or a 2 gang box.


----------



## swedex (Mar 3, 2008)

french connection!! said:


> here in bay area California , I can't get 14/4 or 12/4 from my supplies anymore and they even told manufacture were not making then either .I liked to use those romex , perfect for afci , lighting 3way , 4way , kitchen , etc ...


Home depot in Torrance, CA still got 12/2/2 romex simpull


----------



## swedex (Mar 3, 2008)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> There is no problem with tripping GFCI receptacles when running a 12/3 the the 1st device (A GFCI for ckt1) and then splitting into 2 12/2 circuits. (Ckt 1 load & Ckt 2)


Actually...by NEC Article 250.52(B)1.2.3 You need a minimum of 2 separate branch circuits to serve as the 2 small appliance circuits = 2 separate breakers in your panel. And if you are using a 12/3...You will have to place each breaker on side by side in your panel not on the same phase or you could fry the neutral rather than just have the neutral carry only the unbalanced difference between L1 and L2 = phase one and phase 2 very important. But this unbalance when plugging in an appliance with a motor load easily trips the GFCI's.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

swedex said:


> Actually...by NEC Article 250.52(B)1.2.3 You need a minimum of 2 separate branch circuits to serve as the 2 small appliance circuits = 2 separate breakers in your panel. And if you are using a 12/3...You will have to place each breaker on side by side in your panel not on the same phase or you could fry the neutral rather than just have the neutral carry only the unbalanced difference between L1 and L2 = phase one and phase 2 very important. But this unbalance when plugging in an appliance with a motor load easily trips the GFCI's.


 
Actually, you're wrong. The imbalance in the HR neutral is irrelevant. A 12/3 HR is not GFCI protected, just as using 12-2-2 in your example is not GFCI protected either.

12/3 from the panel (2 20a breakers on opposite legs) to the 1st device (A GFCI receptacle) splits into 2 12/2 circuits. The neutrals are no longer common from that point on. 

GFCIs measure imbalance on the neutral only through and beyond the actual device, not prior to it. 

You're confusing the ability to share a common neutral BEFORE the GFCI protection, with the inability to share a common neutral AFTER the GFCI protection.


----------



## swedex (Mar 3, 2008)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Actually, you're wrong. The imbalance in the HR neutral is irrelevant. A 12/3 HR is not GFCI protected, just as using 12-2-2 in your example is not GFCI protected either.
> 
> 12/3 from the panel (2 20a breakers on opposite legs) to the 1st device (A GFCI receptacle) splits into 2 12/2 circuits. The neutrals are no longer common from that point on.
> 
> ...


 

AGAIN...by code you can NOT make your 2 required small appliance circuit's out of one branch circuit. Which means...you can't split one of them to make 2 circuits out of one. That does not fulfill the requirement of the code. I see what you mean about the splitting an all that. So if you got one branch circuit coming from a 20 A breaker in your panel. And it enters your first device-box and enters the line-side on your GFCI, thats fine. But from there on you can always add down-stream receptacles from the load side of this first GFCI. This is also fine. But you cant split them at this point thinking that one of the splits is good as the second small appliance circuit. You still need a second branch circuit from a second 20A breaker on the other phase in your panel to qualify as the second branch circuit. And yes the GFCI senses the differential internally in the device itself. But since you are using a 12/3 with now is providing a common neutral in the same cable,carrying only the unbalanced load between the 2 phases. Any motor load on one of these phases and for some reason this is enough to trip the GFCI's. I know this for a fact. I tried it and learned the hard way. I had to rewire the incoming hot from the panel to the first devices on each circuit for it to work properly. Separate neutrals...no problemo! I even called my old friend BOB wich holds A master electrician licence and had General journeyman licenses in 11 state and have more than 40 years in the trade. And he readily agreed with me.


----------



## gilbequick (Oct 6, 2007)

How does a 12/3 not constitute 2 circuits? There are 2 different wires on 2 different (separate) breakers. Just because the breakers are required on '08 code to have a handle tie on them doesn't mean that it's only one circuit, it's still 2 circuits. Bob is also not right on this one.


----------



## swedex (Mar 3, 2008)

gilbequick said:


> How does a 12/3 not constitute 2 circuits? There are 2 different wires on 2 different (separate) breakers. Just because the breakers are required on '08 code to have a handle tie on them doesn't mean that it's only one circuit, it's still 2 circuits. Bob is also not right on this one.


I never said that a 12/3 doesn't constitute 2 circuits...I said that in order to use it as the 2 small appliance circuits. It is not a good idea with only one neutral. And how do you legally split a branch circuit from one GFCI into 2 separate circuits? And call them 2 separate small appliance circuits? Read the definition of a branch circuit and the definition of a multiwire branch circuit. And I was not talking about the handle tie's wich is required on MULTIWIRE BRANCH CIRCUITS.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

swedex said:


> I never said that a 12/3 doesn't constitute 2 circuits...I said that in order to use it as the 2 small appliance circuits. It is not a good idea with only one neutral.


Why isn't it a good idea? It's 2 circuits. It's no different from any other multi wire circuit. Don't you ever run a 14/3 homerun to feed 2 separate 15a circuits?



> And how do you legally split a branch circuit from one GFCI into 2 separate circuits? And call them 2 separate small appliance circuits? Read the definition of a branch circuit and the definition of a multiwire branch circuit. And I was not talking about the handle tie's wich is required on MULTIWIRE BRANCH CIRCUITS.


12/3 homerun from the panel to the 1st device box in the kitchen is TWO 20a SABC's. Prior to the actual GFCI, one of the circuits (red & neutral) peel off and splice onto a 12/2 and run off to the second GFCI device, the 2nd circuit.
Back at the 1st device, the black & neutral feed the 1st circuit GFCI. It's load is where you connect the second 12-2 to feed downstream receptacles for circuit 1.

Nowhere post-gfci is the neutral shared.


----------



## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

I think something is being lost in translation. Swedex, a 12-3 on a double pole 20 A breaker, can be, and many times is, used to feed the two small appliance branch circuits required in the kitchen. There is no problem with a shared neutral as long as you use pigtail the white at the first GFCI. 

Tell BOB the Master/Journeyman to read up on 210.4.

InPhase277


----------



## rbj (Oct 23, 2007)

*12-3 SA's??*



okeefe said:


> Anybody using 4 conductor w/ground romex,(bk, rd, wh, wh/rd stripe, and grd) instead of pulling two home runs in residential work? I was just curious if this cable is cost effective. I will get a price quote on Monday but it seems like a cool idea, you use less staples, cut home run labor in half, less cables going into the panels etc.


Hi Okeefe, 
Good question. Hopefully I can give a good answer. For all who think using 12-3 with a parallel pigtailed neutral works, just remember that one of the GFCI SA's is fed by a COMBINATION AFCI according to 2008 Art. 210.12(B) that requires all 120V outlets installed in "dwelling unit family rooms, dining rooms,....etc." The 12/2/2 w/gnd is just fine. I do not recommend a 12-3 (just in case) should the AHJ switch requirements to the 2008 at a later date and you get a job doing a kitchen-dining remod that requires the Combo AFCI. 
Sounds like you are just starting out, and believe me, there is a time in a future remod you may think back and use explitives about Shared neutrals in residential.  rbj


----------



## gilbequick (Oct 6, 2007)

double post


----------



## gilbequick (Oct 6, 2007)

rbj said:


> Hi Okeefe,
> Good question. Hopefully I can give a good answer. For all who think using 12-3 with a parallel pigtailed neutral works, just remember that one of the GFCI SA's is fed by a COMBINATION AFCI according to 2008 Art. 210.12(B) that requires all 120V outlets installed in "dwelling unit family rooms, dining rooms,....etc."


The small appliance circuits are not required to be afci protected in the '08. The afci protection is required pretty much everywhere where gfci protection is not already, like the 2 small appliance circuits, bathroom receptacles, outdoor weather proofs, garages, etc. Dining rooms are not required to be gfci protected.


----------



## rbj (Oct 23, 2007)

*third rail SA*



gilbequick said:


> The small appliance circuits are not required to be afci protected in the '08. The afci protection is required pretty much everywhere where gfci protection is not already, like the 2 small appliance circuits, bathroom receptacles, outdoor weather proofs, garages, etc. Dining rooms are not required to be gfci protected.


Hi gilbequick, 

Rightly so, until 2008 when 210.8 and 210.12 are combined on the two SA kitchen-dining room circuits. One SA includes both a Combination AFCI combined with a downstream GFCI receptacle.

So it looks like there is a choice, or two, where 1) using a third SA branch circuit AFCI protected with a GFCI to the dining receptacles...or, 2) Two SABC's separate home runs with one on a single Combination AFCI at the panel. I think this is where using shared neutrals does not economically work by pulling an extra SA. Pray for waivers or no dining....:thumbup: rbj


----------



## heel600 (Oct 31, 2007)

Speedy Petey said:


> No, really. Are you serious? This is a real question. It's just they've been around since the 1999 NEC.
> 
> OK, sorry corkers, I see now. You are from Australia. I hadn't seen your post in "Introductions" yet.
> 
> They are Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter breakers.


 
AFCIs are not required in NJ either.

They WILL be required when the 2008 is adopted on 8/1/08.


----------



## jmellc (Feb 25, 2011)

I see this is an old thread. I never saw 14-4 or 14-2-2 until this year, on mfr's websites. I had heard of it in the past, but never seen it or knew anyone who had. None of the supply houses in my area have heard of it. Home Depot now has a couple stores around with it on the board, listed as special order. 

I want to try it for 3 way switches, now that code requires a neutral in every box. Can send over h/n and also use them as ckt feeders. Good at a 4 way box for sure. That can help shave a wire or 2. I cannot always get deep plastic cut in boxes. I get them at the moment at an out of town Eck, while I'm in their town working. All houses in my town carry the standard Slater box, 18 cubic inch I think it is. The deep ones at the other Eck are black, I think 22 cubic inch.


----------



## Greg Sparkovich (Sep 15, 2007)

I use 12/2/2 as much as I can.
I start EVERY circuit with a 2-gang box so I meet the space requirement. that's easy: by the bed, in a bathroom (1 circuit for the GFCI, the other is junctioned), near the entertainment center, at a computer desk (1 rec serves the computer circuit, 1 rec serves as a utility circuit: light, clock, printer, etc.).
People need 2 gang receptacles in the above areas because they plug in cell phone chargers, clocks, lamps, electric blankets, bed lights, air mattresses (sleep number beds), etc. In bathrooms there may be multiple electric toothbrushes, hair dryer, electric shaver, water-pic, etc. 2 gang boxes are awesome for your customers and your customers want them if you explain it right...

In kitchens, I use 12/2/2 between boxes so that each 2-gang location has (2) 20-Amp circuits. So now your customer CAN have their toaster oven and coffee maker in the same area. I tell my customers to be sure to ask if the other electricians can do this for them and not charge extra. I think it actually SAVES me money to wire this way! If you are talking to "the man of the house" about this issue, don't waste your time: talk to the person who works in the kitchen. 

And as previously mentioned, it saves time in the panel for all the home runs to our newly required AFCI circuits.


----------



## rbj (Oct 23, 2007)

Greg Sparkovich said:


> I use 12/2/2 as much as I can.
> I start EVERY circuit with a 2-gang box so I meet the space requirement. that's easy: by the bed, in a bathroom (1 circuit for the GFCI, the other is junctioned), near the entertainment center, at a computer desk (1 rec serves the computer circuit, 1 rec serves as a utility circuit: light, clock, printer, etc.).
> People need 2 gang receptacles in the above areas because they plug in cell phone chargers, clocks, lamps, electric blankets, bed lights, air mattresses (sleep number beds), etc. In bathrooms there may be multiple electric toothbrushes, hair dryer, electric shaver, water-pic, etc. 2 gang boxes are awesome for your customers and your customers want them if you explain it right...
> 
> ...


Are two sp disconnects being used for the 12-2-2 branch circuits disconnect?


----------



## Greg Sparkovich (Sep 15, 2007)

Yes, (2) single pole breakers.

You need to use a DP disconnect when using 12/3 on (2) AFCI circuits that share a neutral. In the case of 12/2/2 you have a hot and a neutral for each circuit so a DP breaker is not necessary (you are only sharing the ground so that's pretty irrelevant).


----------



## rbj (Oct 23, 2007)

Greg Sparkovich said:


> Yes. You need to use a DP disconnect when using 12/3 on (2) AFCI circuits that share a neutral. In the case of 12/2/2 you have a hot and a neutral for each circuit so a DP breaker is not necessary (you are only sharing the ground so that's pretty irrelevant).


I agree. I admire your wiring method for quality and hi-end approach. I have found, having used **-2-2 in the past, is not for the penny watcher and can be a hard sell for low-budget dingbat construction. One side note to be aware of is the use of X10 or RF multiplexed aftermarket installs can be a bear to work with on any same-cable multiple conductor cross coupling runs.


----------



## crosport (Apr 4, 2010)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Actually, you're wrong. The imbalance in the HR neutral is irrelevant. A 12/3 HR is not GFCI protected, just as using 12-2-2 in your example is not GFCI protected either.
> 
> 12/3 from the panel (2 20a breakers on opposite legs) to the 1st device (A GFCI receptacle) splits into 2 12/2 circuits. The neutrals are no longer common from that point on.
> 
> ...


You are correct. It's good to see someone understands 2 gfi recepts. sharing the same neutral.


----------



## freeagnt54 (Aug 6, 2008)

What would be the benefit of using xx/2/2 for 3 way switches?

Edit: other then using the additional white wire as a hot. or is that the only benefit?


----------



## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

I've always prefered plain 2 wire HRs outside of appliances . I just pull two runs at the same time to two nearby locations and staple both back at same time. Why give the copper lords more for less ? 14/4 or 12/4 is only something I use for custom jobs where 3 way and SP switches are grouped and routed together or hi end bath fans.


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

freeagnt54 said:


> What would be the benefit of using xx/2/2 for 3 way switches?
> 
> Edit: other then using the additional white wire as a hot. or is that the only benefit?


The 2011 is requiring a neutral at every switch and when you have dead end 3 ways using a 4 wire cable would satisfy the requirement.. IMO a 12/4 would be better suited for that purpose.


----------



## jmellc (Feb 25, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> The 2011 is requiring a neutral at every switch and when you have dead end 3 ways using a 4 wire cable would satisfy the requirement.. IMO a 12/4 would be better suited for that purpose.


Agreed, but I would not use #12 for lights. Crowds boxes quickly & complicates situation when dimmers get brought into the mix, as they often do. On commercial jobs with 4" box & mud ring, not as much of a problem.


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

jmellc said:


> Agreed, but I would not use #12 for lights. Crowds boxes quickly & complicates situation when dimmers get brought into the mix, as they often do. On commercial jobs with 4" box & mud ring, not as much of a problem.


I could have said 14/4 just trying to get across the use that it had.


----------



## Greg Sparkovich (Sep 15, 2007)

Shockdoc said:


> I've always prefered plain 2 wire HRs outside of appliances . I just pull two runs at the same time to two nearby locations and staple both back at same time.


Sometimes I do that too of course.
However, I use 250 ft. rolls, and I like my work to look neat, so all my 12 or 14/2 is flattened along/across joists. I also over-wire: generally no more than 6 receptacles to a 20-Amp circuit.
With 12/2/2 I save a lot of labor NOT straightening out the cable. It means connecting 1/2 the number of home runs to a fish, fishing 1/2 the home runs through the walls/floors, 1/2 the cables into the panel and 1/2 the ground connections. With 20+ home runs 12/2/2 helps make the panel work go much faster and look neater.

To be honest, the biggest problem I have with 12/2/2 is the cost. When it first became available in my area, it was at the height of 2 wars and an economic boom: remember when a roll of 12/2 was $110? 12/2/2/ was sometimes less than $200. Now, because contractors didn't buy it, it costs a lot more than 2 rolls of 12/2. I'm pretty sure 12/2/2 has NOT come down in price the way 12/2 has. Sad Greg. Wah.


----------



## Greg Sparkovich (Sep 15, 2007)

Just scored about 195 feet of an open roll for $47.50 at the Despot!


----------

