# Inspectors new rule



## Hexamexapex (Jun 9, 2012)

About a month ago our city hired a new electrical inspector (we have a few) and he decided to implement something that I haven't quite figured out, short of asking him. The small company I work for used 50 amp breakers for the ranges regularly. As did many other local contractors. The new rule is that we must now use 40 amp breakers in insulated panels due to excessive heat from 50 amp breakers. I understand the wattage can be reduced using a lower amp breaker but to my knowledge the ranges would never pull more than roughly 30 amps when at max. Any ideas?


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

Hexamexapex said:


> About a month ago our city hired a new electrical inspector (we have a few) and he decided to implement something that I haven't quite figured out, short of asking him. The small company I work for used 50 amp breakers for the ranges regularly. As did many other local contractors. The new rule is that we must now use 40 amp breakers in insulated panels due to excessive heat from 50 amp breakers. I understand the wattage can be reduced using a lower amp breaker but to my knowledge the ranges would never pull more than roughly 30 amps when at max. Any ideas?


What size wire are you running to the ranges?

Pete


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## Hexamexapex (Jun 9, 2012)

pete m. said:


> what size wire are you running to the ranges?
> 
> Pete


6666


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## Hexamexapex (Jun 9, 2012)

Hexamexapex said:


> 6666


Aluminum


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Hexamexapex said:


> About a month ago our city hired a new electrical inspector (we have a few) and he decided to implement something that I haven't quite figured out, short of asking him. The small company I work for used 50 amp breakers for the ranges regularly. As did many other local contractors. The new rule is that we must now use 40 amp breakers in insulated panels due to excessive heat from 50 amp breakers. I understand the wattage can be reduced using a lower amp breaker but to my knowledge the ranges would never pull more than roughly 30 amps when at max. Any ideas?


I'm kinda new to this electric thing but how does a breaker reduce wattage? Besides reducing it to zero when it trips.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Hexamexapex said:


> Aluminum


#6 AL on the 60 degree column for NM is 40 amps..


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## Hexamexapex (Jun 9, 2012)

backstay said:


> I'm kinda new to this electric thing but how does a breaker reduce wattage? Besides reducing it to zero when it trips.


Well I just did the equation for power (wattage). 
P = VI. This is power equals voltage times current. So I guess what I am saying is that a smaller breaker allows for smaller power and energy amounts and also "less heat" before tripping.

But I am befuddled since HVAC guys use 60 and 80 amp breakers in their equipment. 

I am going to check the wire size vs breaker size in code book.


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## Fibes (Feb 18, 2010)

The aluminum cable would fall under the 60 deg column


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## Hexamexapex (Jun 9, 2012)

B4T said:


> #6 AL on the 60 degree column for NM is 40 amps..


So 40amp breaker is required when using 6 gauge aluminum? What is this 60 degree column?


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

Hexamexapex said:


> Aluminum




If you are using SER then you might be ok on a 50 amp breaker. Show your inspector 338.10(B)(4)(a).

This is considering you are not running through insulation and all your terminations are rated at 75 degrees C. 

Pete


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## Hexamexapex (Jun 9, 2012)

Hexamexapex said:


> So 40amp breaker is required when using 6 gauge aluminum? What is this 60 degree column?


Wait, nevermind. That's the column in the code book right.


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

Hexamexapex said:


> So 40amp breaker is required when using 6 gauge aluminum?What is this 60 degree column?


A column in 310.15(B)(16).

You need a code book to follow along.

Pete


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

Hexamexapex said:


> Well I just did the equation for power (wattage).
> P = VI. This is power equals voltage times current. So I guess what I am saying is that a smaller breaker allows for smaller power and energy amounts and also "less heat" before tripping.
> 
> But I am befuddled since HVAC guys use 60 and 80 amp breakers in their equipment.
> ...


LoL, 
I like that befuddled Answer.


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## Hexamexapex (Jun 9, 2012)

Wirenuting said:


> LoL,
> I like that befuddled Answer.


I know I am just rambling sorry. But I think I got it. SE #6 through insulation requires 60degree column. This tells me 40 amp breaker is the rule. Thanks for all the help again guys.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

334.80 Ampacity. The ampacity of Types NM, NMC, and
NMS cable shall be determined in accordance with 310.15.
*The allowable ampacity shall not exceed that of a 60°C*
(140°F) rated conductor. The 90°C (194°F) rating shall be
permitted to be used for ampacity adjustment and correction
calculations, provided the ﬁnal derated ampacity does not exceed
that of a 60°C (140°F) rated conductor. The ampacity of
Types NM, NMC, and NMS cable installed in cable tray shall
be determined in accordance with 392.80(A).


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

B4T said:


> 334.80 Ampacity. The ampacity of Types NM, NMC, and
> NMS cable shall be determined in accordance with 310.15.
> *The allowable ampacity shall not exceed that of a 60°C*
> (140°F) rated conductor. The 90°C (194°F) rating shall be
> ...


Seems this install is using SER. He is still gonna be stuck at 60 degrees but only because it appears that the SER is ran in insulation. 338.10(B)(4)(a).

Pete


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

Hex, a breaker will NOT reduce the power to a circuit. All a smaller breaker will do is trip sooner on overloads. A larger breaker will run a bit cooler, though. Sounds like there is more to this.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Pete m. said:


> Seems this install is using SER. He is still gonna be stuck at 60 degrees but only because it appears that the SER is ran in insulation. 338.10(B)(4)(a).
> 
> Pete


I thought it was NM... here is the SE article you quoted.. 

(a) Interior Installations. In addition to the provisions
of this article, Type SE service-entrance cable used for interior
wiring shall comply with the installation requirements
of Part II of Article 334, excluding 334.80.
Where installed in thermal insulation, the ampacity shall
be in accordance with the 60°C (140°F) conductor temperature
rating. The maximum conductor temperature rating
shall be permitted to be used for ampacity adjustment and
correction purposes, if the ﬁnal derated ampacity does not
exceed that for a 60°C (140°F) rated conductor.


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## Hexamexapex (Jun 9, 2012)

InPhase277 said:


> Hex, a breaker will NOT reduce the power to a circuit. All a smaller breaker will do is trip sooner on overloads. A larger breaker will run a bit cooler, though. Sounds like there is more to this.


Less resistance so it runs cooler right? I think I'm picking up what your throwing down.

Yes it's is SER #6 aluminum


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

My posts are from the 2011 NEC.. you might be on a different cycle..


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## Sparky J (May 17, 2011)

I would get the answer straight from the inspector or inspection dept. as others have said there may be more to it. Don't get built in the ass for someone's stupidity if they are wrong and your right. I had one new inspector one time tell me in a rough that my panel needed to have all breakers in and wired up 
He told me he'd fail me if not I said go ahead but I'll be on the phone with your boss before you leave the driveway. Turned out he was working with a commercial inspector and saw alot of the bolt-in panels.
CYOA
Just sayin'


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Wow .......... :laughing:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Wow .......... :laughing:


I sense there is something that you don't agree with..


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> I sense there is something that you don't agree with..


:no:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> My posts are from the 2011 NEC.. you might be on a different cycle..


That is a great point, they have been repeatedly changing the rules about this.

But I am willing to bet the inspector knows which code cycle he is on.


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## Hexamexapex (Jun 9, 2012)

Sparky J said:


> I would get the answer straight from the inspector or inspection dept. as others have said there may be more to it. Don't get built in the ass for someone's stupidity if they are wrong and your right. I had one new inspector one time tell me in a rough that my panel needed to have all breakers in and wired up
> He told me he'd fail me if not I said go ahead but I'll be on the phone with your boss before you leave the driveway. Turned out he was working with a commercial inspector and saw alot of the bolt-in panels.
> CYOA
> Just sayin'


This new inspector is a stickler and rightly so. Your suggestion would be the best. Just thought I would try to figure out before asking. I think I ran into problems asking my co-workers. Unfortunately most of them just do what they are told and look no further into why it's being done. When i asked why the switch from 50 to 40 the overriding answer had something to do with the 50amp putting off too much heat in a panel with insulation. This didn't sound right to me.... Reason I posted this question. The ampacity rating of the SER #6 through insulation seems to be the most plausible reason. I am looking through my 2008 NEC book trying to find it although someone mentioned the 2011 book having it.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Hexamexapex said:


> This new inspector is a stickler and rightly so. Your suggestion would be the best. Just thought I would try to figure out before asking. I think I ran into problems asking my co-workers. Unfortunately most of them just do what they are told and look no further into why it's being done. When i asked why the switch from 50 to 40 the overriding answer had something to do with the 50amp putting off too much heat in a panel with insulation. This didn't sound right to me.... Reason I posted this question. The ampacity rating of the SER #6 through insulation seems to be the most plausible reason. I am looking through my 2008 NEC book trying to find it although someone mentioned the 2011 book having it.


That came out with the 2011 code... you won't find it in 2008...I think..


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

I've never run aluminum to a range!:no::no:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

wendon said:


> I've never run aluminum to a range!:no::no:


I have never run copper to range, or any circuit above 30 amps in a dwelling.


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## BurtiElectric (Jan 11, 2011)

wendon said:


> I've never run aluminum to a range!:no::no:


Why not????


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

BurtiElectric said:


> Why not????


Usually the range isn't located that far from the main panel. Aluminum has a lot more expansion\contraction than copper when tightened in a lug and subjected to heat. Just my personal preference. I know the recepts are rated AL CU but I still don't care for it.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

From the 2008 NEC...

(4) Installation Methods for Branch Circuits and
Feeders.
(a) Interior Installations. In addition to the provisions
of this article, Type SE service-entrance cable used for interior
wiring shall comply with the installation requirements
of Part II of Article 334.

Then 334 says you need to use 60 degree column... same as in 2011


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BBQ said:


> I have never run copper to range, or any circuit above 30 amps in a dwelling.


Are range receptacles rated AL/CU??

I would hate to pigtail CU onto the receptacle and trying to get it to fit into a box..


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

wendon said:


> Usually the range isn't located that far from the main panel. Aluminum has a lot more expansion\contraction than copper when tightened in a lug and subjected to heat. Just my personal preference. I know the recepts are rated AL CU but I still don't care for it.


To each their own but they don't fail, pretty much all the homes in New England use AL for branch circuits more than 30 amps. AC condensers, sub panels, etc.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> Are range receptacles rated AL/CU??
> 
> I would hate to pigtail CU onto the receptacle and trying to get it to fit into a box..


We always used surface receptacles screwed to the floor for ranges and they where dual rated. I imagine the flush are dual rated as well.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BBQ said:


> To each their own but they don't fail, pretty much all the homes in New England use AL for branch circuits more than 30 amps. AC condensers, sub panels, etc.


On Long Island you won't find AL inside a house.. only on services... even now with the "new and improved" AL... it is a no go...


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> On Long Island you won't find AL inside a house.. only on services... even now with the "new and improved" AL... it is a no go...


I can't explain stupid.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BBQ said:


> We always used surface receptacles screwed to the floor for ranges and they where dual rated. I imagine the flush are dual rated as well.


I remember something in the code that prohibits the face of a receptacle to be installed that way...

It had to do with liquids getting into the receptacle...


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## Hexamexapex (Jun 9, 2012)

B4T said:


> From the 2008 NEC...
> 
> (4) Installation Methods for Branch Circuits and
> Feeders.
> ...


Beautiful. I just haven't been looking in the right place.


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## Hippie (May 12, 2011)

B4T said:


> I remember something in the code that prohibits the face of a receptacle to be installed that way...
> 
> It had to do with liquids getting into the receptacle...


Flush mount ones go in the wall in a 2 gang box.. surface ones the face will be vertical when attached to the floor


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## BurtiElectric (Jan 11, 2011)

wendon said:


> Usually the range isn't located that far from the main panel. Aluminum has a lot more expansion\contraction than copper when tightened in a lug and subjected to heat. Just my personal preference. I know the recepts are rated AL CU but I still don't care for it.


I don't believe I've ever seen copper run to a range


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Hippie said:


> Flush mount ones go in the wall in a 2 gang box.. surface ones the face will be vertical when attached to the floor


So you are saying to mount the box with bracket to the floor and the stove will still slide over it??


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## Hippie (May 12, 2011)

B4T said:


> So you are saying to mount the box with bracket to the floor and the stove will still slide over it??


Its a receptacle with integral box, mounts against the wall behind the range, there's room for it in the space with the cord. I'm on my phone or id post a picture


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> I remember something in the code that prohibits the face of a receptacle to be installed that way...
> 
> It had to do with liquids getting into the receptacle...


That is for counter tops.

After all, you can install floor plugs anywhere in a home. I would shy away from the bathroom. :jester:

The cable can enter the bottom or the back.










We would screw them to the floor and run the cable into them. And yes as long as you keep them tight to the wall the range slide in fine.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BBQ said:


> We would screw them to the floor and run the cable into them. And yes as long as you keep them tight to the wall the range slide in fine.


I have never seen it done that way and locating the stove receptacle on the wall is always a PIA if you don't know where the recessed part of the stove is...


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

BBQ said:


> To each their own but they don't fail, pretty much all the homes in New England use AL for branch circuits more than 30 amps. AC condensers, sub panels, etc.


Almost none are done that way around here. I don't think I have ever ran into it other than a few of the 70's alum houses.
That is until now. My next range will be Alum if I can find the wire around here.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> I have never seen it done that way and locating the stove receptacle on the wall is always a PIA if you don't know where the recessed part of the stove is...


If you are down at the height of the bottom drawer .... which is where you are supposed to be ........ there is always space.

The drawer is designed to be easily removed so you can access the plug to plug and unplug it. 


If you can't access the outlet by removing the drawer you have a code violation if you are planing for the cord and plug to be the required disconnecting means. Basically if you can't access the plug via the drawer you need to provide a lockout at the panel. 




> *422.33 Disconnection of Cord-and-Plug-Connected
> Appliances.
> 
> (A) Separable Connector or an Attachment Plug and
> ...


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Hexamexapex said:


> When i asked why the switch from 50 to 40 the overriding answer had something to do with the 50amp putting off too much heat in a panel with insulation.


This is freakin' sad if you were told this by an inspector.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

BBQ said:


> If you are down at the height of the bottom drawer .... which is where you are supposed to be ........ there is always space.
> 
> The drawer is designed to be easily removed so you can access the plug to plug and unplug it.
> 
> ...


That was true for all of the old ranges but I've seen some of the newer ones where the recept had to be to one side of the stove or it wouldn't fit.


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## Hexamexapex (Jun 9, 2012)

Speedy Petey said:


> This is freakin' sad if you were told this by an inspector.


Well I never asked the inspector directly. I asked my job boss (lead man) and that was pretty much what came out of his mouth. He didn't care why so we just did it. And nobody else inquired as to why either. This is a small company with some of earths finest...haha. They are all good guys but just not educated on electrical theory and NEC. They could if they tried but none try... Except myself. It's one hell of a learning process. Their are so many ways to install electricity while following the NEC. Takes time.


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## Hexamexapex (Jun 9, 2012)

Hexamexapex said:


> Well I never asked the inspector directly. I asked my job boss (lead man) and that was pretty much what came out of his mouth. He didn't care why so we just did it. And nobody else inquired as to why either. This is a small company with some of earths finest...haha. They are all good guys but just not educated on electrical theory and NEC. They could if they tried but none try... Except myself. It's one hell of a learning process. Their are so many ways to install electricity while following the NEC. Takes time.


*there


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

BBQ said:


> I have never run copper to range, or any circuit above 30 amps in a dwelling.


Are you serious?


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

Hexamexapex said:


> 6666





Hexamexapex said:


> Aluminum





B4T said:


> #6 AL on the 60 degree column for NM is 40 amps..





Hexamexapex said:


> Wait, nevermind. That's the column in the code book right.





Speedy Petey said:


> This is freakin' sad if you were told this by an inspector.


... Petey, are you sure of that? I think rather than Hex coming here to solve problems or get answers, he should enroll in either a tech school or enter an apprentice program, so he fully understands the answer.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

nolabama said:


> Are you serious?


100%, almost no one runs copper in homes around here other than 15, 20 & 30 circuits. Once in a while I might see some 8 copper NM but not often.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

nolabama said:


> Are you serious?


let me give you BBQ's boilerplate answer :whistling2:, "...give the customer what they paid for, as long as it is code compliant, I don't have a problem with it"


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

360max said:


> let me give you BBQ's boilerplate answer :whistling2:, "...give the customer what they paid for, as long as it is code compliant, I don't have a problem with it"


Well there's that, but there is also no rational reason to run copper. :laughing:


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

I have used aluminum once. It was a feeder. It is extremely uncommon to see anything but copper 'round here.


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

BBQ said:


> 100%, almost no one runs copper in homes around here other than 15, 20 & 30 circuits. Once in a while I might see some 8 copper NM but not often.


Mind-boggling for me.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

B4T said:


> I remember something in the code that prohibits the face of a receptacle to be installed that way...
> 
> It had to do with liquids getting into the receptacle...


Probably restricted to countertops in resi [2011 ~ 406.6(E)]


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## Hexamexapex (Jun 9, 2012)

360max said:


> ... Petey, are you sure of that? I think rather than Hex coming here to solve problems or get answers, he should enroll in either a tech school or enter an apprentice program, so he fully understands the answer.


Is this what you have done?


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

The last time I ran copper to a furnace was because the HVAC guy scared the crap out of the homeowner with "aluminum will burn your house down!" stories. 

The H/O couldn't be convinced otherwise, and I got irritated that they would rather take electrical advice from a tin-knocker than an electrician, but felt better after they got charged for the original aluminum, charged again for the demo, and charged again for the new copper.


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

I have been paid to remove modern aluminum from AC units. Lol. To each their own


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

nolabama said:


> I have been paid to remove modern aluminum from AC units. Lol. To each their own


I will do anything they pay me for but that is wicked f...ing stupid. :laughing:

You guys down there do know that they changed the alloy used oh like 30+ years ago?


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

BBQ said:


> I will do anything they pay me for but that is wicked f...ing stupid. :laughing:
> 
> You guys down there do know that they changed the alloy used oh like 30+ years ago?


Well don't tell nobody. Markup is higher on copper.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

nolabama said:


> I have been paid to remove modern aluminum from AC units. Lol. To each their own





BBQ said:


> I will do anything they pay me for but that is wicked f...ing stupid. :laughing:


The scare tactics of the uninformed bug the crap out of me too, but if they are willing to pay I'd change it also.


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

Speedy Petey said:


> The scare tactics of the uninformed bug the crap out of me too, but if they are willing to pay I'd change it also.


No scare tactics involved. Homeowner initiated this. Not my place to explain alloys to a paying customer.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

nolabama said:


> No scare tactics involved. Homeowner initiated this. Not my place to explain alloys to a paying customer.


Come on, we know you showed them pictures of burnt bodies and told them _'This was my family, aluminum wire did this them'. _. Make sure to throw some lemon in your eyes for tears ... :jester:


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

nolabama said:


> No scare tactics involved. Homeowner initiated this. Not my place to explain alloys to a paying customer.


I didn't mean you. I meant guys like Big John's tin knocker friend.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

Aluminum SER is pretty common around here in #2 and larger. I have ordered 6-6-6-6 SER, but I had to wait day. I love mobile home feeder. I use AL anytime I can. Put the savings in my pocket.:thumbsup:


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

For the record I had to work with a 2/0-2/0-2/0-1 copper once. Talk about a pain. Wished they woulda used aluminum.


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

Danggumole electrical talk server.


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## Elephante (Nov 16, 2011)

There is nothing wrong with using aluminum wire #8 gauge and up.Its prepared better than the old aluminum and mechanically with those sizes shouldn't be an issue .I see aluminum wires in terminal all the time from ranges to ac units and 99% of the time the connections look great even without nox. I was trained to use copper for everything except services but I never really understood why.Maybe my boss just wanted to sleep at night.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

Elephante said:


> There is nothing wrong with using aluminum wire #8 gauge and up.Its prepared better than the old aluminum and mechanically with those sizes shouldn't be an issue .I see aluminum wires in terminal all the time from ranges to ac units and 99% of the time the connections look great even without nox. I was trained to use copper for everything except services but I never really understood why.Maybe my boss just wanted to sleep at night.


It could be a sales tactic too. The aluminium scare ran wild, and more people are afraid of it than not, so if you can claim we only run copper in the house, people may be willing to pay more?


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

hardworkingstiff said:


> It could be a sales tactic too. The aluminium scare ran wild, and more people are afraid of it than not, so if you can claim we only run copper in the house, people may be willing to pay more?


Would you run aluminum even if the label says copper conductors only?


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

wendon said:


> Would you run aluminum even if the label says copper conductors only?


Then you just use Polaris taps and a small piece of copper for the terminals..


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

wendon said:


> Would you run aluminum even if the label says copper conductors only?


Probably not, but I might consider using a pin terminal to transition from the aluminum prior to termination. Do you have an issue with that?


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

BBQ said:


> I have never run copper to range, or any circuit above 30 amps in a dwelling.


Same.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

Around here, in the olden days, #6 AL SE on a 50 was used for ranges.

When they went to the 4 wire requirement, everyone started using #8 copper NM and still (generally) put it on a 50.

*Years *after the change, a customer informed me that the 50 wasn't compliant with romex. I looked it up and damned if he wasn't right.

I still don't think twice about it. 40/50...whatever it takes. I know it's not a real safety issue, only a technical one. If 50A can flow thru an SE, it will flow just fine thru an NM.


And....we always run copper. If I was doing tracts of houses, I'd probably use AL for the over 30 circuits.


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## Elephante (Nov 16, 2011)

220/221 said:


> Around here, in the olden days, #6 AL SE on a 50 was used for ranges.
> 
> When they went to the 4 wire requirement, everyone started using #8 copper NM and still (generally) put it on a 50.
> 
> ...


What article is that under?


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

Around here we can run AL for services, maybe even for ranges and sub panels. My boss wont let us, I guess he wants to sleep at night. IMO, using AL on a circuit with multiple terminations such as convenience receps and lighting is where you can have issues. I have seen problems in recep circuits alot more than anything else. AC discos come second. A few dryer receps. And of course a few whole panel issues. I guess it boils down to install and usage. Joe the handyman replacing receps as well as Joe the jackleg doing wiring are also the issue with failures.
This also holds true with K&T. I have been in houses where it all looked original but have also been in houses that, well, you know.


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

Elephante said:


> What article is that under?


Code book it not with me. #8 romex I think is only listed for 40 amps using @ 75 degrees.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

B4T said:


> Then you just use Polaris taps and a small piece of copper for the terminals..


I installed a Midwest 50 amp RV plug. The label on the enclosure said Copper conductors only. You think you could fit 4 Polaris splices into that small enclosure?:no::no: I actually ran aluminum to that one and put a JB on the inside of the building and spliced to copper. 

I run 6-3 NM WG for ranges!!:laughing::laughing:


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## electrocop (Sep 6, 2009)

*breaker /wires etcetra*

The rule of thumb wires size always can be bigger although breakers and devices can never be bigger than wire for example a 15 amp breaker is good only for a 14awg while a 12awg wire can have a 15amp breaker and a 15 amp receptacle. or a 20 amp receptacle and 20 amp breaker. see article 210 branch circuit tables, electrocop .


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## Hexamexapex (Jun 9, 2012)

aftershockews said:


> Around here we can run AL for services, maybe even for ranges and sub panels. My boss wont let us, I guess he wants to sleep at night. IMO, using AL on a circuit with multiple terminations such as convenience receps and lighting is where you can have issues. I have seen problems in recep circuits alot more than anything else. AC discos come second. A few dryer receps. And of course a few whole panel issues. I guess it boils down to install and usage. Joe the handyman replacing receps as well as Joe the jackleg doing wiring are also the issue with failures.
> This also holds true with K&T. I have been in houses where it all looked original but have also been in houses that, well, you know.


Ha.....What or who is "joe the jackleg"?


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## Sparky J (May 17, 2011)

aftershockews said:


> Code book it not with me. #8 romex I think is only listed for 40 amps using @ 75 degrees.


No book here either but I think 45 amps. But like 220/221 said here years ago it was protected by 50 amp breakers by mostly everyone (yes me too, guilty as charged) untill the inspectors really wished up and started cracking down on it. The issue is people looked at the ampacities tables under thhn for the insulation not romex. 

But the same can happen with terminal temperature ratings in other applications also.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

8 AWG Copper is rated 40 amps @ 60C, 50 amps @ 75C and 55 amps @ 90C.




aftershockews said:


> Code book it not with me. #8 romex I think is only listed for 40 amps using @ 75 degrees.


But you cannot use NM @ 75, you must use it @ 60 C




> *334.80 Ampacity.* The ampacity of Types NM, NMC, and
> NMS cable shall be determined in accordance with 310.15.
> The allowable ampacity shall not exceed that of a 60°C
> (140°F) rated conductor. The 90°C (194°F) rating shall be
> ...


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