# Need help! I think I'm being misled about the Apprenticeship Program?



## clockworkmike83 (Dec 1, 2011)

Hey guys, sorry to bug you once again but here's been some big updates since I last posted about trying to get into the union and I need some BIG help because I feel I'm being giving an unfair deal:

Let me first start with what has all happened from the beginning. April 2011 I got a call from a Union electrical contractor about a possible job position. I was informed that I needed to call the local union #466 to apply for apprenticeship. I did so on April 21st, 2011 and paid my $25 fee for the JATC testing. While there, the secretary informed me if I could bring copies of my high school transcripts, Vocational school training, electrician's license, driver's license and present 8000+ hours working experience, that I would be granted an interview, pass or fail on the testing and with the hours, could by-pass the apprenticeship training. I brought all the records, including 1040 tax statements showing from 2001 to 2010 that I worked as an electrician.

I didn't hear anything back until November when I received a letter saying I had a testing date on December 8,2011. I went to the test and on January 6,2012 I received a letter saying I had passed and would be receiving another letter soon , stating when I would be given an interview. On January 10th,2012 I received a phone call from the local financial secretary asking me if I received the letter informing me that I had passed the test. I told them yes and the financial secretary then asked would I also be interested in the CW/CE program. Not really understanding what that was, I asked and he explained that I could go right to work for a local contractor and anytime there, could be applied towards the apprenticeship program. I then told him that I had presented copies of all my work records, schooling, etc and he said " Oh ok, well come in Friday and we will interview you".

So this morning I went to local 466 in Charleston,WV and met with the financial secretary and he began to talk about the CW/CE program, but not the apprenticeship program. When I asked him about the apprenticeship program he said " Well you haven't gotten your interview letter yet, this is for the CW/CE", he didn't tell me this on the phone. He made it sound like this would be my interview for the apprenticeship program. But just to see what it was, I went through the interview and he began showing me that I would most likely start at CW-1 wages ( which are far too low for me to make it on) and said if I could produce 14,000+ hrs, I could be moved up to CE-3 ( which is a little bit better than what I am currently making). He then informed me that IF I made CE-3, I would be on a 1 year waiting period before being eligible for the Apprenticeship program. After that? It would be 5 years before I would be eligible to take their Journeyman's testing. So all in all, 6 more years of waiting , despite having almost 11 years in the field as a documented Journeyman Electrician.

When I went to produce my work records again, he presented copies of what I had brought in April. He said they couldn't use my work hours because they didn't specify EXACT work hours. Well the only way for me to do that in this company I work for is to present weekly pay stubs and at 52 weeks per year for 10 years? That would be next to impossible.

I then explained that both my license and my tax records clearly state I was employed as electrician since June of 2001. The records stated the company I worked for ( and still do at this moment). He told me to send copies of the W-2s and they could maybe move me up to CE-3. I went home today, gathered my records and called him back and told him that I had W-2s for all but two years, yet have the 1040s for ALL years. He said " well just give us what you have and we'll go from there". I told him that would possibly short change my hours. He said " that's not my problem" I then told him I could call my work office and have the secretary fax the missing W-2s along with a formal letter showing my work hours , he then began to get hateful and said " that's not my job to go looking for your records and I'm not going to. You can give us what you got and that's it". 



So my problem is this: with my work hours proven, along with completion of trade school and holding a Journeyman's card for almost 11 years. Is this legal for them to do this and should I even be IN the Apprenticeship Program at all? Because I've read on here and online that most people with this much experience would be in the JW1-JW2 program, NOT the apprenticeship. So why am I being given the run around? Any information would be helpful guys and I'm sorry for ranting on this long, I just wanted to state all the facts accurately. Thanks


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## Wireman191 (Aug 28, 2011)

Here if you already carry a state license you just have to pass the union test, pay an initiation fee and your ready to sign the books.
We do not have the C- whatever program here because the state of Washington will not allow it.


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## Acadian9 (Jun 6, 2009)

clockworkmike83 said:


> high school transcripts, Vocational school training, *electrician's license*, driver's license and present 8000+ hours working experience


Having an electrical license *in theory* should be enough. I take it that you were open shop before you decided to join the union? What license do you have now and what license do you want?


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## MidwestJW (Oct 13, 2011)

clockworkmike83 said:


> Hey guys, sorry to bug you once again but here's been some big updates since I last posted about trying to get into the union and I need some BIG help because I feel I'm being giving an unfair deal:
> 
> Let me first start with what has all happened from the beginning. April 2011 I got a call from a Union electrical contractor about a possible job position. I was informed that I needed to call the local union #466 to apply for apprenticeship. I did so on April 21st, 2011 and paid my $25 fee for the JATC testing. While there, the secretary informed me if I could bring copies of my high school transcripts, Vocational school training, electrician's license, driver's license and present 8000+ hours working experience, that I would be granted an interview, pass or fail on the testing and with the hours, could by-pass the apprenticeship training. I brought all the records, including 1040 tax statements showing from 2001 to 2010 that I worked as an electrician.
> 
> ...


In MO you would be elgible for the accelerated program which means you would go to school one night a week for about 4 years I think. Not sure what starting wage is, I think it
Is around 75% but I could be wrong. Cw/ce's are predominantly young guys here and definitely with out
A license. Sounds a bit off.


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## clockworkmike83 (Dec 1, 2011)

Acadian9 said:


> Having an electrical license *in theory* should be enough. I take it that you were open shop before you decided to join the union? What license do you have now and what license do you want?


I currently have a WV Journeyman License, I am eligible at any point to take the Masters Test , but just haven't had the time to schedule the test date


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## clockworkmike83 (Dec 1, 2011)

Wireman191 said:


> Here if you already carry a state license you just have to pass the union test, pay an initiation fee and your ready to sign the books.
> We do not have the C- whatever program here because the state of Washington will not allow it.



I wish WV never adopted this CW/CE program. Because the guy I talked to outright said it's a program called Market Recovery Program. Which means it was started to allow union contractors the right to hire NON-Union guys that are TRYING to get in the union. See a CW/CE means you are not truly union, you are still waiting to get in. Your hours can count towards the apprenticeship, but you are not in, which to me is a load of crap and basically means your a scab even within the local you are working out of!


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## Sky Seattle (Jul 5, 2011)

*In Washington state*

When I did it in 93 I was classified a JWPE, Journeyman pending exam, I did not have to go through the apprenticeship because I was already recognized by the state as a journeyman


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## Wireman191 (Aug 28, 2011)

clockworkmike83 said:


> I wish WV never adopted this CW/CE program. Because the guy I talked to outright said it's a program called Market Recovery Program. Which means it was started to allow union contractors the right to hire NON-Union guys that are TRYING to get in the union. See a CW/CE means you are not truly union, you are still waiting to get in. Your hours can count towards the apprenticeship, but you are not in, which to me is a load of crap and basically means your a scab even within the local you are working out of!


 They made a DVD and sent it to all IBEW member's. It is a very controversial deal. We just have not had to partake in it. 
IMO the guy who though of it was on mushrooms.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

clockworkmike83 said:


> I wish WV never adopted this CW/CE program. Because the guy I talked to outright said it's a program called Market Recovery Program. Which means it was started to allow union contractors the right to hire NON-Union guys that are TRYING to get in the union. See a CW/CE means you are not truly union, you are still waiting to get in. Your hours can count towards the apprenticeship, but you are not in, which to me is a load of crap and basically means *your a scab* even within the local you are working out of!


So you worked open shop and you use terms like scab? You should be ashamed of yourself, using such a degrading term to describe anyone much less electricians.


Disgusting term.


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## clockworkmike83 (Dec 1, 2011)

MidwestJW said:


> In MO you would be elgible for the accelerated program which means you would go to school one night a week for about 4 years I think. Not sure what starting wage is, I think it
> Is around 75% but I could be wrong. Cw/ce's are predominantly young guys here and definitely with out
> A license. Sounds a bit off.


Here in WV you have to have a license to work, no if ands or buts. From what this guy I talked to told me, the CW/CE program is under the Market Recovery Program and it's a loophole basically to allow union contractors the right to hire non-union guys who are trying to get in. If I did this CE crap? I wouldn't be union by their standards. At best if I made it to CE-3, I'd still wait another year before eligibility in the apprenticeship.

It's a fraud system if you ask me. I mean how can anyone outright say after 2 years of vocational school, then almost 11 years of proven commercial/industrial/hospital experience, you aren't equal to someone who sat in their program for a mere 7 years at the most as a student?

Here in WV, the law states to gain an Apprentice License you need only to learn the first 4 chapters of the NEC, with no work experience necessary and pass that test, administered by the State Fire Marshal's Office. For Journeyman License? You need to be an Apprentice card holder for 4 documented years OR 1080hrs Vocational School ( which I did and graduated with Outstanding Student Honors in 2001) and then pass the Journeyman's test. For Master's License, it's 5 years documented holding the Journeyman's card. I've held mine for 11 years, am eligible to take the test, yet haven't had the time to schedule it in, though I will. 

That being said. It would take the Local 466's apprentice a minimum of 4 years to even be eligible for a Journeyman's card, factor 3 more years experience after the license and you are a 7th Tier Apprentice. I have almost 11 after mine. Am I not more qualified than ANY of their apprentices? Not to mention I have specialty licenses I'm sure they do not have, such as Fire Alarm, Nurse Call and Security as an extra


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## chadw (Jan 10, 2012)

The cw program here is for newbies trying to get in to the apprenticeship, or guys that are just helpers...cheap labor.
In our local, with 11 years experience you could be just voted in, but they would have to know you, seen your work, work habits etc... Otherwise you have to sit on book forever and prove yourself when you get the job.


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## clockworkmike83 (Dec 1, 2011)

brian john said:


> So you worked open shop and you use terms like scab? You should be ashamed of yourself, using such a degrading term to describe anyone much less electricians.
> 
> 
> Disgusting term.


I use the term "SCAB" because here that's what I was labeled as and am still labeled as by none other than local 466 pal! I don't enjoy the term at all, but it's members of this union itself that like to use that term on me. I'm not a scab at all and anyone in this world who is trying to make an honest living deserves the right! I was in the Steelworker's Union as an electrician for a few months and EVEN THEN we were called "Scabs" by local 466, who were working on a job right beside us, because THEY didn't get it. So if you don't like that word? Go call 466 and complain, their words, not mine chief


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

So why would you want to work for these losers then. Jesus go somewhere where they want you instead of sitting the bench somewhere for 2 years and collecting unemployment like so loser


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## Wireman191 (Aug 28, 2011)

sbrn33 said:


> So why would you want to work for these losers then.


 Don't go there.


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## clockworkmike83 (Dec 1, 2011)

Wireman191 said:


> Don't go there.


Agreed, I'm not going to sit here and call any group "Losers" like her. I'm not even trying to bash this local union ( would be dumb to bash the people you are trying to get into you know?) But the reality is, something is going on I don't feel is right and there HAS been a bad history with this local kinda attacking guys like me and our companies because we would get work they didn't and then began the picketing, the name calling so on. But hey, water under the bridge, it's just how some people do


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

So why do you want in do bad?


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## Wireman191 (Aug 28, 2011)

clockworkmike83 said:


> Agreed, I'm not going to sit here and call any group "Losers" like her. I'm not even trying to bash this local union ( would be dumb to bash the people you are trying to get into you know?) But the reality is, something is going on I don't feel is right and there HAS been a bad history with this local kinda attacking guys like me and our companies because we would get work they didn't and then began the picketing, the name calling so on. But hey, water under the bridge, it's just how some people do


The local is stupid then. No way to promote the IBEW. Just may be there is not enough work for the guys that have been in the local.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

clockworkmike83 said:


> I use the term "SCAB" because here that's what I was labeled as and am still labeled as by none other than local 466 pal! I don't enjoy the term at all, but it's members of this union itself that like to use that term on me. I'm not a scab at all and anyone in this world who is trying to make an honest living deserves the right! I was in the Steelworker's Union as an electrician for a few months and EVEN THEN we were called "Scabs" by local 466, who were working on a job right beside us, because THEY didn't get it. So if you don't like that word? Go call 466 and complain, their words, not mine chief


So because others call you a despicable name you feel free to throw the same disgusting word around here.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

take your masters test


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

brian john said:


> So you worked open shop and you use terms like scab? You should be ashamed of yourself, using such a degrading term to describe anyone much less electricians.
> 
> 
> Disgusting term.


Brian,
Isn't that just an endearing term for someone that benefits from collective bargaining but does not participate or pay dues?

I think the "R" word, although fitting, and to some a source of pride, is the bad word.


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## chadw (Jan 10, 2012)

sbrn33 said:


> So why would you want to work for these losers then. Jesus go somewhere where they want you instead of sitting the bench somewhere for 2 years and collecting unemployment like so loser


 So lets go with your theory. And everyone quits the local....Next thing you know your wage drops and stays the same year after year....Great plan, don't stick together for your wages. Let the Big money bosses control you and work for peanuts. It's a fact that if big business goes unchecked it eats everything it can.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Why would my wage drop?


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## clockworkmike83 (Dec 1, 2011)

wildleg said:


> take your masters test


Might be what I have to do actually to basically end any further arguments with these people


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## clockworkmike83 (Dec 1, 2011)

chadw said:


> So lets go with your theory. And everyone quits the local....Next thing you know your wage drops and stays the same year after year....Great plan, don't stick together for your wages. Let the Big money bosses control you and work for peanuts. It's a fact that if big business goes unchecked it eats everything it can.


I totally understand the philosophy that the IBEW gets the wages up, county by county and are responsible for any wage increases for Prevailing Wage. That's why I support them and would love to be in the union, I'm just having an amazingly hard time with their front office right now. When you have a state where unions are weak? You have alot of illegal immigrants and no pay, like Virginia with the Right-To-Work Laws. Roanoke local actually dissolved and Local 466 out of Charleston,WV absorbed it because of corrupt business owners brought that law in


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## Wireman191 (Aug 28, 2011)

sbrn33 said:


> Why would my wage drop?


 If you get a pay raise most likely the union got a pay raise.
That is if your not the boss.


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## clockworkmike83 (Dec 1, 2011)

brian john said:


> So because others call you a despicable name you feel free to throw the same disgusting word around here.


You're what's called a "Troll" you hang out in forums and such looking for a fight. You saw the word scab and now you have this whole new agenda to pick a fight. Drop it. You're a damn moderator and you are acting like a child. I never called anyone a scab. I said I am still looked at like a scab by the union either way. Drop it.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

clockworkmike83 said:


> You're what's called a "Troll" you hang out in forums and such looking for a fight. You saw the word scab and now you have this whole new agenda to pick a fight. Drop it. You're a damn moderator and you are acting like a child. I never called anyone a scab. I said I am still looked at like a scab by the union either way. Drop it.


No actually I am a professional electrician with respect for others and know this term is a hateful way to describe any other worker. In my opinion it places the user in the realm of a bigot.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Wireman191 said:


> If you get a pay raise most likely the union got a pay raise.
> That is if your not the boss.


No if I get or give a pay raise its because Am making more money. You might find this hard to believe but at least in NE the union has nothing to do with the pay scale.
If anything they bring it down because most of them haven't worked in awhile and are trunk slamming like no other


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## Aegis (Mar 18, 2011)

chadw said:


> So lets go with your theory. And everyone quits the local....Next thing you know your wage drops and stays the same year after year....Great plan, don't stick together for your wages. Let the Big money bosses control you and work for peanuts. It's a fact that if big business goes unchecked it eats everything it can.


That's what the Union is in theory, but in reality it's another beast altogether.


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## Acadian9 (Jun 6, 2009)

clockworkmike83 said:


> I currently have a WV Journeyman License, I am eligible at any point to take the Masters Test , but just haven't had the time to schedule the test date


It sounds like they're screwing you. I heard someone here say it might be because there is so many on the books so adding you would make their chances of a job harder. I guess you're better off waiting for the economy in the area to get better before re-applying or suffer through a second apprenticeship.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

The union job is to protect their members and bargain for them and to arrange for work with signatory contractors.

For none members the union can and does treat these workers as the like. They can woo you in times of high unemployment, ignore you in mediocre times and work against at anytime.

While I feel the treatment you are getting is hardly fair, there is little or nothing you can do other than try to get in.

That they ignore your past work is hardly fair in the real world, that they seem to be treating you rudely is not unusual. After all they are union and you received your training open shop, many feel this makes you less of an electrician. Some people are even rude enough to use derogatory names to describe you and your open shop training.


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## clockworkmike83 (Dec 1, 2011)

brian john said:


> The union job is to protect their members and bargain for them and to arrange for work with signatory contractors.
> 
> For none members the union can and does treat these workers as the like. They can woo you in times of high unemployment, ignore you in mediocre times and work against at anytime.
> 
> ...


Fair enough, I can agree on that completely. See? We can do this without fighting, it's easier than you think. I get the whole anger from them over me working non-union, but for anyone, including them, to think my training was sub-level is insane. If anything? I would be willing to bet my training might even be greater. Why is that? Because I had to learn the hardest way you can : trial by fire.

My dad is an electrician for over 30 years now. He used to be out in the field until about 8 years ago, he landed a dream job as head electrician in Charleston at the Center For National Response Training Facility (Department of Homeland Security and Department of Defense Training Center). But he still operates a side business , doing residential and light commercial and from the time I was 11 years old, I've worked with him on old rewires and new residential construction. That gave me a big boost by the time I got to Vocational school and by the time I graduated, I had already had on the job training before even taking my electricians test. 

From the time I was 18, I joined this company I'm with now and my first job was a $5.2 mil Trauma Center addition on a hospital, that my dad was actually running. He left however, only 6 months in for the job he's at now. Before he did however, he remained on the job for another 1 1/2 weeks and in that short amount of time, he showed me what I would need to know on Fire Alarm, Nurse Call AND Security. So basically I had to learn all specialty wiring in the matter of less than 2 weeks. My boss decided instead of replacing him with someone I felt would be more qualified, he tossed me into the ring and more-less told me " sink or swim". Well, I finished the job with only 1 helper ( a 77-year old man who was semi-retired) 1 month ahead of schedule and under budget. How I did this? I have no idea lol But since then, I've been tossed these jobs with little or no help at all and have never had one go over budget or over schedule. 
As for the Fire Alarm/Nurse Call/Security? I'm now basically the company's go-to-guy on any job we have going from hospitals, to schools, hell even prisons. 

So when someone in the union wants to say " Well you aren't as well trained as our apprentices?" I will gladly argue that debate any day of the week. I've worked union for a short while and I can't tell you one person who could do or had done what I had in my age bracket.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

clockworkmike83 said:


> Fair enough, I can agree on that completely. See? We can do this without fighting, it's easier than you think. I get the whole anger from them over me working non-union, but for anyone, including them, to think my training was sub-level is insane. If anything? I would be willing to bet my training might even be greater. Why is that? Because I had to learn the hardest way you can : trial by fire.


Unless they have a 100% share of the market they should not be upset you are filling a need and feeding yourself. I went through the same thing

I had 5 Masters at the time I applied and was told the masters meant nothing as I gained the knowledge while working open shop and guys like me would come in the union and steal all their work practices then open a none union shop. In this meeting I was told I had worked as a scab and called a rat, I had to suck it up but swore I would never stoop to this type of language, it really steams me.



> My dad is an electrician for over 30 years now. He used to be out in the field until about 8 years ago, he landed a dream job as head electrician in Charleston at the Center For National Response Training Facility (Department of Homeland Security and Department of Defense Training Center). But he still operates a side business , doing residential and light commercial and from the time I was 11 years old, I've worked with him on old rewires and new residential construction. That gave me a big boost by the time I got to Vocational school and by the time I graduated, I had already had on the job training before even taking my electricians test.
> 
> From the time I was 18, I joined this company I'm with now and my first job was a $5.2 mil Trauma Center addition on a hospital, that my dad was actually running. He left however, only 6 months in for the job he's at now. Before he did however, he remained on the job for another 1 1/2 weeks and in that short amount of time, he showed me what I would need to know on Fire Alarm, Nurse Call AND Security. So basically I had to learn all specialty wiring in the matter of less than 2 weeks. My boss decided instead of replacing him with someone I felt would be more qualified, he tossed me into the ring and more-less told me " sink or swim". Well, I finished the job with only 1 helper ( a 77-year old man who was semi-retired) 1 month ahead of schedule and under budget. How I did this? I have no idea lol But since then, I've been tossed these jobs with little or no help at all and have never had one go over budget or over schedule.
> As for the Fire Alarm/Nurse Call/Security? I'm now basically the company's go-to-guy on any job we have going from hospitals, to schools, hell even prisons.
> ...


Believe me argue all you want SOME of the union member s won’t believe you and I’d bet you are most likely 10 times the electrician these naysayers are.

But they are still in control, shake your head yes, play their game get your “A” card and once in nothing will be different except for the occasional slacker that would be fired in an open shop.


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## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

Clock, does the local take in Journeymen through testing? For you to go through an apprenticeship is just dumb. The CE/CW program sucks for everyone except for the contractors. They are trying to save money on labor and benefits. Some locals contracts will only allow CE/CW on small jobs like residential and light commercial. With your stated education and experience both the local and contractors would take advantage of you.

We had a CE/CW on an industrial job (which was against the CBA) and the contractor paid full JW wage. Reason, because his father is a open shop EC who had previously been union and the local/NECA was trying to win them back.

Do you work consistent 40 hour weeks, any benefits where you are? If you were a JW with the local would you work the same number of hours?

I hate to say it but it has been my experience to see IBEW Local management staff treat a lot of people like s#%t in several states.


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## James428 (Jan 12, 2012)

clockworkmike83 said:


> Fair enough, I can agree on that completely. See? We can do this without fighting, it's easier than you think. I get the whole anger from them over me working non-union, but for anyone, including them, to think my training was sub-level is insane. If anything? I would be willing to bet my training might even be greater. Why is that? Because I had to learn the hardest way you can : trial by fire.
> 
> My dad is an electrician for over 30 years now. He used to be out in the field until about 8 years ago, he landed a dream job as head electrician in Charleston at the Center For National Response Training Facility (Department of Homeland Security and Department of Defense Training Center). But he still operates a side business , doing residential and light commercial and from the time I was 11 years old, I've worked with him on old rewires and new residential construction. That gave me a big boost by the time I got to Vocational school and by the time I graduated, I had already had on the job training before even taking my electricians test.
> 
> ...


Sounds like they are jerking you around, over here in my local in ca, if you want to organize in you need to old your state license have verifiable 8,000 otj hours and pass a hands on test the training director and teachers give. If you pass that then you have to pass our local exam and get voted in at the union meeting.


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## jordan_paul (Oct 4, 2011)

You union folks south of the border have some really messed up rules. When I applied to the union, that's all I had to do.I applied as an apprentice, four months later I got a phone call saying they wanted to intervew me the next day. The next day came, they interviewed me like it was any other job and at the end they told me that if I wanted the job I could have it and I could start the next day. I started the next day and 4 months later I was sworn in.

No tests, no bull****, just an interview, and a job offering. Same goes for J-Men who want to join.


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## Wireman191 (Aug 28, 2011)

jordan_paul said:


> You union folks south of the border have some really messed up rules. When I applied to the union, that's all I had to do.I applied as an apprentice, four months later I got a phone call saying they wanted to intervew me the next day. The next day came, they interviewed me like it was any other job and at the end they told me that if I wanted the job I could have it and I could start the next day. I started the next day and 4 months later I was sworn in.
> 
> No tests, no bull****, just an interview, and a job offering. Same goes for J-Men who want to join.


 Why is it us with the messed up rules? How come not you guys north of the border?


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## jordan_paul (Oct 4, 2011)

Wireman191 said:


> Why is it us with the messed up rules? How come not you guys north of the border?


Well what makes more sense to you. A guy who is a J-Man that has been licensed for 11 years having to "redo" his apprenticeship because the union thinks he's not as good as a union 1st term apprentice , or hiring him like he's a valuable asset to the union due to the fact that he's got 11 years of experience! :wallbash:

If I was the OP I'd tell the union to get stuffed and find somebody who will actually appreciate you as an asset to the company. And where ignorant assholes won't call you a scab or a rat. You are an electrician first and a union man second. Alot of people in the IBEW get that confused.


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## Wireman191 (Aug 28, 2011)

jordan_paul said:


> Well what makes more sense to you. A guy who is a J-Man that has been licensed for 11 years having to "redo" his apprenticeship because the union thinks he's not as good as a union 1st term apprentice , or hiring him like he's a valuable asset to the union due to the fact that he's got 11 years of experience! :wallbash:
> 
> If I was the OP I'd tell the union to get stuffed and find somebody who will actually appreciate you as an asset to the company. And where ignorant assholes won't call you a scab or a rat. You are an electrician first and a union man second. Alot of people in the IBEW get that confused.


 No, this is his experience for some strange reason. If you carry a JW card then there is no reason for you to take the apprenticeship. The JW card is the key, He should just have to take the unions test and then be accepted.
If hours are not verified with the state, then thats the problem. The state tells you when you can become a JW, not the union.


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## jordan_paul (Oct 4, 2011)

Wireman191 said:


> No, this is his experience for some strange reason. If you carry a JW card then there is no reason for you to take the apprenticeship. The JW card is the key, He should just have to take the unions test and then be accepted.
> If hours are not verified with the state, then thats the problem. The state tells you when you can become a JW, not the union.


He said he has carried a JW card for 11 years. He said the union is making him start from the bottom again.


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## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

jordan_paul said:


> He said he has carried a JW card for 11 years. He said the union is making him start from the bottom again.


 
No he said he has worked as an electrician for 11 years. He has a JW card issued by the state. So yes the union is jerking him around because they are not excepting the state issued JW card.


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## jordan_paul (Oct 4, 2011)

rlc3854 said:


> No he said he has worked as an electrician for 11 years. He has a JW card issued by the state. So yes the union is jerking him around because they are not excepting the state issued JW card.


Is that not what I just said? Re-read the OP's last paragraph.


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## Wireman191 (Aug 28, 2011)

jordan_paul said:


> He said he has carried a JW card for 11 years. He said the union is making him start from the bottom again.


 If you read the whole post you might see it looks like the hours are the issue.
I know guys that have came in shorted on hours because the contractor they were working for either, didn't have a valid license, or were to lazy to turn in the guys hours. 
Not the Unions fault. The Union cannot say, ya this guy is a JW, to hell with you state. 
If In fact he is carrying a State license I would suggest to him to telling the Union to piss up a rope...... In the wind...... On a cold winter day.......


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## jordan_paul (Oct 4, 2011)

Wireman191 said:


> If you read the whole post you might see it looks like the hours are the issue.
> I know guys that have came in shorted on hours because the contractor they were working for either, didn't have a valid license, or were to lazy to turn in the guys hours.
> Not the Unions fault. The Union cannot say, ya this guy is a JW, to hell with you state.
> If In fact he is carrying a State license I would suggest to him to telling the Union to piss up a rope...... In the wind...... On a cold winter day.......


Here's a break down of what the OP said:



clockworkmike83 said:


> While there, the secretary informed me if I could bring copies of my high school transcripts, Vocational school training, electrician's license, driver's license and present 8000+ hours working experience, that I would be granted an interview, pass or fail on the testing and with the hours, could by-pass the apprenticeship training. *I brought all the records*, including 1040 tax statements showing from 2001 to 2010 that I worked as an electrician.


 


clockworkmike83 said:


> I then told him that I had presented copies of all my work records, schooling,.





clockworkmike83 said:


> I went through the interview and he began showing me that I would most likely start at CW-1 wages ( which are far too low for me to make it on) and said if I could produce 14,000+ hrs, I could be moved up to CE-3 ( which is a little bit better than what I am currently making). He then informed me that IF I made CE-3, I would be on a 1 year waiting period before being eligible for the Apprenticeship program. After that? It would be 5 years before I would be eligible to take their Journeyman's testing. So all in all, 6 more years of waiting , despite having almost 11 years in the field as a documented Journeyman Electrician..





clockworkmike83 said:


> *When I went to produce my work records again*





clockworkmike83 said:


> , he presented copies of what I had brought in April. He said they couldn't use my work hours because they didn't specify EXACT work hours. Well the only way for me to do that in this company I work for is to present weekly pay stubs and at 52 weeks per year for 10 years? That would be next to impossible..





clockworkmike83 said:


> *I then explained that both my license and my tax records clearly state I was employed as electrician since June of 2001*





clockworkmike83 said:


> *So my problem is this: with my work hours proven, along with completion of trade school and holding a Journeyman's card for almost 11 years. Is this legal for them to do this and should I even be IN the Apprenticeship Program at all?*





clockworkmike83 said:


> Because I've read on here and online that most people with this much experience would be in the JW1-JW2 program, NOT the apprenticeship.


It looks like he did everything right here, and the union is still giving him the run around. So it is the union wanting him to start at the bottom.


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## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

jordan_paul said:


> Is that not what I just said? Re-read the OP's last paragraph.


yeah you're right but what I'm saying is that the local is LOCAL. They are screwing him just to recover market share, use and abuse him until he quits. You can believe that if he showed up on a job where he demonstrates skill and knowledge, he would be asked to work alone, on higher skilled tasks and asked to lead a crew of dumb F*(ks.


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## Wireman191 (Aug 28, 2011)

jordan_paul said:


> Here's a break down of what the OP said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Ya, that is messed up.


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## Wireman191 (Aug 28, 2011)

rlc3854 said:


> yeah you're right but what I'm saying is that the local is LOCAL. They are screwing him just to recover market share, use and abuse him until he quits. You can believe that if he showed up on a job where he demonstrates skill and knowledge, he would be asked to work alone, on higher skilled tasks and asked to lead a crew of dumb F*(ks.


 Speaking of my experience's in my local, That is not the case, You pay your dues your a member just the same as a guy that took the union apprenticeship.

Just a scare tactic to keep people from joining.


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## jordan_paul (Oct 4, 2011)

Wireman191 said:


> Speaking of my experience's in my local, That is not the case, You pay your dues your a member just the same as a guy that took the union apprenticeship.
> 
> Just a scare tactic to keep people from joining.


But if I was a union Buisness Manager or JATC rep or whatever you folks call the guy who hires new people, I would rather have this guy then a green apprentice.

The OP has been in the trade for 11 years, so chances are he's good at what he does and might have a unique skill set that most union guys won't have (like wiring up a 3-way switch, it makes me sick how many union guys can't do it ). He's probably got buddies in the trade who are as good as him or better because he's been in the trade so long. 

Once the OP is in the IBEW he can show those buddies what he's making, the bennies and that it's not that bad of a gig if you get on a good job or work for a small company. Then he could persuade his buddies to join the union or flip the non-union company they work for increasing the market share of the Local.

What the union "hiring guy" is doing is putting a bad taste in the OP's mouth (let alone the union sparkeys calling him a scab and a rat) by making him start at the bottom, and now the OP is going to tell his buddies not to bother joining the union due to the fact that they will actually have their wages cut because of the ignorance of the union. It's just like any other buisness, the bad word travels fast.

Essentially if the union guys didn't think they were king **** all the time and better then the non-union guys "because they have more [useless, bull**** and worthless] courses'' that the JATC puts on, the Local's could gain more market share just because they could convince more guys to flip companys. 

I know if I was in charge of the guy hiring the OP I'd do everything short of sucking his **** to get him in the Local. His experience alone would make the union look better, let alone his untapped ability to increase market share.


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## Aegis (Mar 18, 2011)

For the brief time that I was in the Union I saw a few journeyman who couldn't even make a box offset in 1/2". A few others would run 20" of pipe in an entire day. There was other stuff too but basically the Union had awesome electricians and complete morons as well. So do non-union shops. I don't like that Union guys pretend like all their 'brothers' are the most supreme electricians that ever walked the face of the earth. lol


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## Sparky208 (Feb 25, 2011)

I currently work non union, I have been with the same company for 16 years and I had 4 years with a company before that. I went to 3 years of vocational school in high school, I went to 4 years of apprentice school, and I have a master license. After my apprentice I got a company truck and started doing service calls then small jobs. Now I do some of the largest and most difficult jobs we get, and service calls night and weekends. I always take pride in doing a nice job. 

The union has been after me to join for a while. They call me every few months ask if I am busy and if I am interested. And they have stoped out 4 times on the job where I am working ( lucky I have not had to talk to them don't want to listen to all the B.S.) they leave there business card on my company truck. 

My problem is I would like to join but when I talked to the business manager a few years ago he told me I had to start as a apprentice. No thank you


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## Sparky208 (Feb 25, 2011)

Double post sorry


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## 87Electric (Apr 2, 2011)

Most of the time they test you, and your placed how you tested. They can start you out with 5th year apprentice wages but place you in first year of school. Some have started right out as a jw. Most will need some schooling.


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## 87Electric (Apr 2, 2011)

Sparky208 said:


> I currently work non union, I have been with the same company for 16 years and I had 4 years with a company before that. I went to 3 years of vocational school in high school, I went to 4 years of apprentice school, and I have a master license. After my apprentice I got a company truck and started doing service calls then small jobs. Now I do some of the largest and most difficult jobs we get, and service calls night and weekends. I always take pride in doing a nice job.
> 
> The union has been after me to join for a while. They call me every few months ask if I am busy and if I am interested. And they have stoped out 4 times on the job where I am working ( lucky I have not had to talk to them don't want to listen to all the B.S.) they leave there business card on my company truck.
> 
> My problem is I would like to join but when I talked to the business manager a few years ago he told me I had to start as a apprentice. No thank you



What local has been trying to contact you?


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## jordan_paul (Oct 4, 2011)

87Electric said:


> Most of the time they test you, and your placed how you tested. They can start you out with 5th year apprentice wages but place you in first year of school. Some have started right out as a jw. Most will need some schooling.


But why though? Didn't they get enough schooling when they did their apprenticeship?


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## 87Electric (Apr 2, 2011)

jordan_paul said:


> But why though? Didn't they get enough schooling when they did their apprenticeship?



Most times its by choice. This business is always changing and more schooling makes a better jw.


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## jordan_paul (Oct 4, 2011)

87Electric said:


> Most times its by choice. This business is always changing and more schooling makes a better jw.


Haahahahahahah. That's a good joke buddy. Schooling dosent make a better JW. Experience does. You can cram electrical theory down anyone's throat, but if they don't have experience to back it up they are useless. And there's some things you can't teach people. Like work ethic, and many union JW thing schooling replaces that. 

But what excuse do you have that most union JW's can't wire up a R way switch, bend a perfect box offset, troubleshoot a machine, or work on a job without someone holding thir hand the whole way? Ohh wait, they are already in the union....so they don't need to know that because they are better then those scabby rat ****s right? 

And in this case it appears that its not the OP's choice if he repeats the apprenticeship program.


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## 87Electric (Apr 2, 2011)

But what excuse do you have that most union JW's can't wire up a R way switch, bend a perfect box offset, troubleshoot a machine, or work on a job without someone holding thir hand the whole way? Ohh wait, they are already in the union....so they don't need to know that because they are better then those scabby rat ****s right? 

Your brain washed thinking that......That`s all I`m going to say.


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## jordan_paul (Oct 4, 2011)

87Electric said:


> But what excuse do you have that most union JW's can't wire up a R way switch, bend a perfect box offset, troubleshoot a machine, or work on a job without someone holding thir hand the whole way? Ohh wait, they are already in the union....so they don't need to know that because they are better then those scabby rat ****s right?
> 
> Your brain washed thinking that......That`s all I`m going to say.


No I'm not brainwashed at all. I'm a card carrying member of the IBEW Lu 804 and I see it, and hear about it everyday. I could name over 50 JW that can't wire a 3 way switch, and probably 200 more that couldn't trouble shoot a machine if their life depoended on it.


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## Sparky208 (Feb 25, 2011)

87Electric said:


> What local has been trying to contact you?


Lu 375


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## Wireman191 (Aug 28, 2011)

jordan_paul said:


> No I'm not brainwashed at all. I'm a card carrying member of the IBEW Lu 804 and I see it, and hear about it everyday. I could name over 50 JW that can't wire a 3 way switch, and probably 200 more that couldn't trouble shoot a machine if their life depoended on it.


I call BS.
I'm sure you taught yourself how to wire 3-ways as no one else knows how to do it but you.
Cubs seem to forget this, You didn't teach yourself everything you know about this trade, You owe your knowledge to a JW.
3-ways are not common in commercial work and if you don't do it very often it seems to slip your mind.


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## Sparky208 (Feb 25, 2011)

jordan_paul said:


> Haahahahahahah. That's a good joke buddy. Schooling dosent make a better JW. Experience does. You can cram electrical theory down anyone's throat, but if they don't have experience to back it up they are useless. And there's some things you can't teach people. Like work ethic, and many union JW thing schooling replaces that.
> 
> But what excuse do you have that most union JW's can't wire up a R way switch, bend a perfect box offset, troubleshoot a machine, or work on a job without someone holding thir hand the whole way? Ohh wait, they are already in the union....so they don't need to know that because they are better then those scabby rat ****s right?
> 
> And in this case it appears that its not the OP's choice if he repeats the apprenticeship program.


I agree!!!! I may not know everything they teach in the union apprenticeship program but how many do you think remember everything. Very few IMO. That's why people are specialized in certain things. I have seen some really nice jobs done by the IBEW and some really poor ones and it's that way both ways union and non. There are guys that work for the company I work for that do sh*t work. I make sure my jobs look like someone has taken pride in there job.


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## jordan_paul (Oct 4, 2011)

Wireman191 said:


> I call BS.
> I'm sure you taught yourself how to wire 3-ways as no one else knows how to do it but you.
> Cubs seem to forget this, You didn't teach yourself everything you know about this trade, You owe your knowledge to a JW.
> 3-ways are not common in commercial work and if you don't do it very often it seems to slip your mind.


No you're right. I learned how to wire a 3 way from an excellent JW when I was non-union. Then I went union and got thrown on a big job where I didnt learn anything, working for JW who were only there for the paycheque and had no work ethic or pride in their work.

Now I'm still union, working for a small shop and loving it. We are in service and I learn something new everyday and it thanks to the JW that are working there. I'm lucky to be in this company, they have 5 JW's that have been there for over 20 years, and a couple more that have been there over 30. One of the most senior guys is one of the most recognizable "smart guys" in our Local. I'm the only apprentice they have kept there in 15 years and the owners said because of my work ethic I can work there for as long as I want, so I guess that makes me a steady as well? I have big respect for everyone that works there, they are all knowledgable JW.

If the company ever fold though or gets dead slow, I'd quit and go non-union again. I couldn't go back to working along side a bunch of people who think they are better then god because they happen to be a union JW.


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## Wireman191 (Aug 28, 2011)

jordan_paul said:


> I couldn't go back to working along side a bunch of people who think they are better then god because they happen to be a union JW.


 Unfortunately this is what you get on the big jobs. I remember one where there were 5 guys standing around the chop saw table bitching because they didn't "Make enough money" On a Sunday double time day none the less.

When the local needs the man power these guys come out of the clock work. Very sad. 
I pisses me off when we are all put in this category though.


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## jordan_paul (Oct 4, 2011)

Wireman191 said:


> Unfortunately this is what you get on the big jobs. I remember one where there were 5 guys standing around the chop saw table bitching because they didn't "Make enough money" On a Sunday double time day none the less.
> 
> When the local needs the man power these guys come out of the clock work. Very sad.
> I pisses me off when we are all put in this category though.


And I bet those guys were making atleast $70 bucks an hour that day. Greedy.

I appoligize but it's what I've seen. The thing that really made me sick was *voting to skip last break so we could go home earlier*, then comming around a corner in the basement and seeing all of them sitting down chatting. I asked one of the guys what was going on and he said "were union, we'll get our breaks one way or another."

And brotherhood is bull****. When I bought my truck (2011 Ram 1500 4x4), the JW were pissed off that an apprentice could afford to buy a new truck and they couldn't. I got the cold shoulder for weeks after that. Same thing goes with tools. I was told by some lazy JW that "an apprentice shouldn't have good tools or a nice truck, whats wrong with you?"


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## chadw (Jan 10, 2012)

So if there wasn't the union competiton there, you would still give the same raise, or say that you and a few other business owners control a large majority of the local elec companies. You could pay whatever you felt like or didn't feel like...thats asking for corruption.


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## Potential11 (Nov 14, 2011)

*Apprenticeship Program*

Try another local and God speed.


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## trob92 (Jan 25, 2012)

The Ibew local 1340 gave me a packet saying study these ones which were like 5 algebra and functions problems and 3 reading comprehension I am wondering is that what the test is really on my test is Feb 1st?? Should I study more algebra question or what please help....and he say I got get a 4 if any of yal know what that mean??


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

trob92 said:


> The Ibew local 1340 gave me a packet saying study these ones which were like 5 algebra and functions problems and 3 reading comprehension I am wondering is that what the test is really on my test is Feb 1st?? Should I study more algebra question or what please help....and he say I got get a 4 if any of yal know what that mean??


Where are you at in Virginia?

And most likely YES.


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## trob92 (Jan 25, 2012)

Hampton.. any advice or help


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

trob92 said:


> Hampton.. any advice or help


 
I am in Northern VA, so there is little I could do to help.

I do know from what I hear most locals do include significant amount of math in their test.


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## Hippie (May 12, 2011)

As far as the math its not too hard but from what I remember it was a bit more complicated than I expected, I'm pretty sure it was multiple choice tho so study up on order of operations and all that, as long as you know the proper way to solve the algebra youll be fine


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## trob92 (Jan 25, 2012)

Ok how bout the reading comprehension is that difficult


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## Hippie (May 12, 2011)

trob92 said:


> Ok how bout the reading comprehension is that difficult


Not for me but math is more my weak area. Its just reading a short thing and answering questions about the content, just look out cause some of them will be worded in a convoluted way to make you think about what they're asking


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## chris856 (Jun 12, 2009)

Try to memorize your square and cube exponents, from what I remember the exponents dont go much higher than that and they don't give you a ton of time to do the math.


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## trob92 (Jan 25, 2012)

Ok thanks


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## HellzBellz (May 22, 2011)

I think the Union is making it hard on you simply because you did not come up as an apprentice. I know as an apprentice I had to sign a contract stating I had to work for 5 years as a union electrician after passing my Journeyman test or I would have to repay them for my schooling


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## dburdette40 (4 d ago)

clockworkmike83 said:


> I wish WV never adopted this CW/CE program. Because the guy I talked to outright said it's a program called Market Recovery Program. Which means it was started to allow union contractors the right to hire NON-Union guys that are TRYING to get in the union. See a CW/CE means you are not truly union, you are still waiting to get in. Your hours can count towards the apprenticeship, but you are not in, which to me is a load of crap and basically means your a scab even within the local you are working out of!


 Actually you are incorrect. Ce/cw's are members just like journeymen. I am a 466 member. I don't like the.program because it puts apprentices and journeyman put of work due to how much lower the wages are. The ce/cw program is abused. It's basically a stepping stone (tryouts) into the apprenticeship.


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## dburdette40 (4 d ago)

Wireman191 said:


> Here if you already carry a state license you just have to pass the union test, pay an initiation fee and your ready to sign the books.
> We do not have the C- whatever program here because the state of Washington will not allow it.


What was te guys name you spoke with.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

dburdette40 said:


> What was te guys name you spoke with.


they stopped talking about it 11 years ago


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## dburdette40 (4 d ago)

Almost Retired said:


> they stopped talking about it 11 years ago


I never implied I was good at math


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