# No Box For Light Fixture



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

314.27 A , for starters....

~CS~


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## The_kid (Nov 4, 2014)

No box at all? Connection in the fixture? Connection in the wall...? 

It's hack!!!!

And It just so happens I hung a fixture last week on a side job without a box. 

But hey, at least I admit it's wrong :laughing:


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

tell 'im kid....:thumbup:~CS~:no:


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## The_kid (Nov 4, 2014)

chicken steve said:


> tell 'im kid....:thumbup:~CS~:no:



Taking time to Install a box cuts into my profit!!

But how does 314.27 (A) prevent this? Simply because it doesn't state you can do it?


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Well thats juxtaposed to doing it wrong revs up your liability kid...:whistling2:~CS~


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## The_kid (Nov 4, 2014)

chicken steve said:


> Well thats juxtaposed to doing it wrong revs up your liability kid...:whistling2:~CS~



Chicken Steve, I honestly really wish I could understand a word your saying. I would probably learn a lot. 

Has anyone developed the translator yet?


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Some lights especially bath vanities are made to mount without a box, however, since you mentioned a cross bar, this was most certainly illegal.


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## The_kid (Nov 4, 2014)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Some lights especially bath vanities are made to mount without a box, however, since you mentioned a cross bar, this was most certainly illegal.



In that case, would it be copacetic and code compliant to mount those fixtures directly to the wall? I assume you would need a box behind the fixture for connections obviously? This is something I've never really run into. 

I wouldn't see a problem mounting any fixture directly the wall as long as there's a box. Hell, if you hit a stud it's definitely supported better than an old work box. 

I guess I'm having trouble understanding 314.27 (a).


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> Well thats juxtaposed to doing it wrong revs up your liability kid...:whistling2:~CS~





The_kid said:


> Chicken Steve, I honestly really wish I could understand a word your saying. I would probably learn a lot.
> 
> Has anyone developed the translator yet?


I am his official translator 

basically he is saying your doing it wrong and you know it, and your liable if something happens


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

The_kid said:


> > Chicken Steve, I honestly really wish I could understand a word your saying. I would probably learn a lot.
> 
> 
> sorry, not intentional kid....
> ...


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

360max said:


> I am his official translator
> 
> basically he is saying your doing it wrong and you know it, and your liable if something happens


thx....do you take paypal 360? :laughing:~CS~:whistling2:


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

The_kid said:


> I guess I'm having trouble understanding 314.27 (a).


Heck, we _all_ do Kid

so, for the sake of debate, let's go there then!.....




> *314.27 Outlet Boxes.*
> *(A) Boxes at Luminaire or Lampholder Outlets.* Outlet
> boxes or fittings designed for the support of luminaires and lampholders, and installed as required by *314.23*, shall be
> permitted to support a luminaire or lampholder.


Now i won't post all of 314.23, but it does mention pans and canopies eventually leading to>>>



> *410.23 Covering of Combustible Material at Outlet
> Boxes.* Any combustible wall or ceiling finish exposed be-
> tween the edge of a luminaire canopy or pan and an outlet
> box having a surface area of 1160 mm
> ...


So say we got a sconce going onto a concrete wall via fixture bar made by rerod:whistling2:, would _'unboxed yet supported'_ fly? what say the crew?:laughing:~CS~


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

I do undercab fluorescent without a box all the time. But that's not what we are talking about.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

The_kid said:


> In that case, would it be copacetic and code compliant to mount those fixtures directly to the wall? I assume you would need a box behind the fixture for connections obviously? This is something I've never really run into.
> 
> I wouldn't see a problem mounting any fixture directly the wall as long as there's a box. Hell, if you hit a stud it's definitely supported better than an old work box.
> 
> I guess I'm having trouble understanding 314.27 (a).


Yes they mount directly to the wall. You just hang your wire out the wall on rough, when you come back on trim, the wire slips through a knock out, amd you screw the light to the wall. No box.


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Yes they mount directly to the wall. You just hang your wire out the wall on rough, when you come back on trim, the wire slips through a knock out, amd you screw the light to the wall. No box.



Right, terminations are made inside the luminary's raceway and the NM is concealed.


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## The_kid (Nov 4, 2014)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Yes they mount directly to the wall. You just hang your wire out the wall on rough, when you come back on trim, the wire slips through a knock out, amd you screw the light to the wall. No box.



I'm stupid. That must of slipped my mind. I know exactly the kind of fixtures you're talking about. 

Just like the line voltage UCL's we use. 

So that would be considered (by the NEC dweebs) a surface mount box?


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> thx....do you take paypal 360? :laughing:~CS~:whistling2:


:laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## badreligion9265 (Jul 16, 2014)

Thanks for the article numbers and laughs. I guess it isn't a big deal that this light was installed without a box but I'm just worried if something happens I am going to get the blame. 

Annoying to have to work with someone who not only does "hack" things but will blatantly lie about its legality. Last week he took off a main panel cover which used clamp type mounting screws(don't know what they are technically called) to hold it on. 

After not being able to figure out how to properly get the panel cover back on using the original hardware, he just used self-tapping sheet metal screws to drill through the panel cover into a live panel. I mean a big part of my time is going to be spent learning bull **** if he just lies in order to get things done in the most half-ass way possible. Am I over-reacting or is this type of conduct hackish to the point where I should look for another job to learn from some one less hackish?


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## The_kid (Nov 4, 2014)

badreligion9265 said:


> Thanks for the article numbers and laughs. I guess it isn't a big deal that this light was installed without a box but I'm just worried if something happens I am going to get the blame.
> 
> Annoying to have to work with someone who not only does "hack" things but will blatantly lie about its legality. Last week he took off a main panel cover which used clamp type mounting screws(don't know what they are technically called) to hold it on.
> 
> After not being able to figure out how to properly get the panel cover back on using the original hardware, he just used self-tapping sheet metal screws to drill through the panel cover into a live panel. I mean a big part of my time is going to be spent learning bull **** if he just lies in order to get things done in the most half-ass way possible. Am I over-reacting or is this type of conduct hackish to the point where I should look for another job to learn from some one less hackish?



There's a fine line between getting the job done, and being a hack.

Installing a fixture without a box is hack. Even though I'm guilty of it. Better make sure those are some tight connections. And know the difference between right and wrong. 

I work with some bad hacks. Like bad. But it's not everyday that I'm with them. And I don't have to do what they say  

Is this guy your number 1 guru? Is he your main source of learning at this stage of the game? If so, id start looking around. But remember, a shop can be must worse than just hacky.


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## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

This should be the article you are looking for.

* 300.15 Boxes, Conduit Bodies, or Fittings —​ Where Required​* A box shall be installed at each outlet and switch point for​ concealed knob-and-tube wiring.​ Fittings and connectors shall be used only with the specific​ wiring methods for which they are designed and listed.​ Where the wiring method is conduit, tubing, Type AC​ cable, Type MC cable, Type MI cable, nonmetallic-sheathed​ cable, or other cables, a box or conduit body shall be installed​ at each conductor splice point, outlet point, switch​ point, junction point, termination point, or pull point, unless​ otherwise permitted in 300.15(A) through (L).

The sconce is considered an outlet point


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

The_kid said:


> I'm stupid. That must of slipped my mind. I know exactly the kind of fixtures you're talking about.
> 
> Just like the line voltage UCL's we use.
> 
> So that would be considered (by the NEC dweebs) a surface mount box?


No it is considered a luminaire but also a raceway to allow conductors to pass through it.


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## badreligion9265 (Jul 16, 2014)

The_kid said:


> There's a fine line between getting the job done, and being a hack.
> 
> Installing a fixture without a box is hack. Even though I'm guilty of it. Better make sure those are some tight connections. And know the difference between right and wrong.
> 
> ...



Yes at this stage he is my number one learning source. Yea that is the thing, the shop environment itself and my co-workers are all very personable easy going guys. So I mean that is a huge plus but I don't see myself gaining the knowledge or experience necessary to obtain my license based on the training/learning environment.

Well at any rate thanks again for the article numbers, at least I know this installation was hack and I can count on this site/you guys to tell me the truth.


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## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

The scary thing is that you referred to your co-worker as a journeyman. That is not journeyman workmanship. Is he truly a journeyman, or is he an electrician? 

It is hard enough to compete in this trade, even harder when there are hacks. That competition is between co-workers and between contractors.

The contractor or his foreman has the right to have a "journeyman" fix a mistake like this on his own time. It appears that the foreman already does not care. In my opinion it should be brought to the owners attention. He has the liability. The owner should decide how he wants to have this type of workmanship repaired. If he does not care I would definitely move on.


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## zac (May 11, 2009)

At least they didn't use a box which wasn't fan rated!


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

zac said:


> At least they didn't use a box which wasn't fan rated!


I'm gonna play devils advocate here. The #10 screws are going into wood framing, and as long as those wires are going into a junction box in the attic, can you post an article prohibiting that install?


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## zac (May 11, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> I'm gonna play devils advocate here. The #10 screws are going into wood framing, and as long as those wires are going into a junction box in the attic, can you post an article prohibiting that install?


I never thought about that, the splice was located in a junction box so I see your point. 
I quess the wire was subject to damage due to the fact it wasn't (jbox) directly over the fan.


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## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

mcclary's electrical said:


> I'm gonna play devils advocate here. The #10 screws are going into wood framing, and as long as those wires are going into a junction box in the attic, can you post an article prohibiting that install?


* 314.20 In Wall or Ceiling​* In walls or ceilings with a surface of concrete, tile, gypsum,​plaster, or other noncombustible material, boxes employing
 a flush-type cover or faceplate shall be installed so that the​ front edge of the box, plaster ring, extension ring, or listed​ extender will not be set back of the finished surface more​ than 6 mm (​​​​1⁄4 in.).​
In walls and ceilings constructed of wood or other combustible​ surface material, boxes, plaster rings, extension​ rings, or listed extenders shall be flush with the finished surface​or project therefrom.

Unless the fan has a back plate where you could use a romex connector, I don't see how anyone could get away without a box. 
I also think the word "box" is mentioned several times in the manufactures directions.

Good thing you are only playing devils advocate. People may think you find this type of work acceptable, and stop using boxes.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

badreligion9265 said:


> Well at any rate thanks again for the article numbers, at least I know this installation was hack and I can count on this site/you guys to tell me the truth.


Let he w/o hack cast the first wirenut.....:laughing:~CS~:whistling2:


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## CopperSlave (Feb 9, 2012)

chicken steve said:


> Let he w/o hack cast the first wirenut.....:laughing:~CS~:whistling2:


Like this?


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Perfect Copperdude....:thumbup: Methinks this place would triple in size if we started nominating hacks .....:laughing:~CS~:no:


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

badreligion9265 said:


> Thanks for the article numbers and laughs. I guess it isn't a big deal that this light was installed without a box but I'm just worried if something happens I am going to get the blame.
> 
> Annoying to have to work with someone who not only does "hack" things but will blatantly lie about its legality. Last week he took off a main panel cover which used clamp type mounting screws(don't know what they are technically called) to hold it on.
> 
> After not being able to figure out how to properly get the panel cover back on using the original hardware, he just used self-tapping sheet metal screws to drill through the panel cover into a live panel. I mean a big part of my time is going to be spent learning bull **** if he just lies in order to get things done in the most half-ass way possible. Am I over-reacting or is this type of conduct hackish to the point where I should look for another job to learn from some one less hackish?


And then that guy teaches an apprentice. You hire the apprentice and have to unteach him all that crap. Sometimes you have to fire the apprentice because he is beyond hope.


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## gnuuser (Jan 13, 2013)

CopperSlave said:


> Like this?


got one of those in the shop (wire nut gun! and a few jackasses as well:laughing
plays hell with the pigeons
a good use for old wire nuts:laughing:


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

360max said:


> I am his official translator
> 
> basically he is saying your doing it wrong and you know it, and your liable if something happens


Lol. Reminds me of a job i started at 15 years ago. For the first week i worked with Mahesh. Mahesh had a stuttering problem while communicating with customers. After every paragraph he said, I would cut in and say," what he's trying to say is, ............". It was true comedy.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

That is common out here for outside fixtures . There are some jokers that drill a hole thru the sheathing, pass the cable thru a 1 gang nail on and secure the box inside the wall flush to the sheathing without cutting it. There are quite a few developments wired that way.


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## Circuit Tracer (Feb 5, 2015)

@zac I thought I was the only one who see's fan installs like that. 

Mike


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## Guaschino (Feb 26, 2015)

Find someone professional to work for. Sounds like some kid who never had any proper training. Self tapers in a panel could blow up in your face. Be careful around this guy and maybe don't stand too close, hana


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