# Being nice to customers who aren't happy with what you charged



## georgep2 (Feb 26, 2013)

I received the following e-mail from a customer that I have done work for 3 times in the past. The last of which was a generator transfer panel about a month and a half ago. I gave a price up front and they were fine with it, but have since changed their mind.

I am trying to move away from speaking my mind because I don't think it helps. The last thing I need is bad reviews.

How can I word a reply that is least likely to have the customer bad mouth me or go around the internet leaving bad reviews?

"Dear George,

Last month you installed a generator panel for us for the price of $899.99. Since then my husband and I have found the kit that you installed being sold at Home Depot for under $300. I understand that it costs money to run a business, but making $600 for a few hours work is on the verge of price gouging. Please get back to us as soon as possible."

I don't know if they are looking for a refund of some money or what. I do know that I will never work for them again, but I want to remain diplomatic since they have the power to hurt my business. I think the good reviews I have received have helped me and I don't want to ruin that.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

_Dear xxx

We agreed on a price before the work started, please remit $899 at you earliest convenience. 

Sincerely, georgep2
_


It is my opinion that any attempt to explain your price will sound to her like excuses. She has already decided that she knows what it costs to run your business and what you should be charging. I find no need for you to sound apologetic for two reasons, 1) It indicates she is right, 2) The price was established before work started.

By the way, I am not a business owner, I am an employee so take that for what it is worth.


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## georgep2 (Feb 26, 2013)

For what it's worth, I charged them and they paid when the job was completed. Thankfully.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

There is nothing you can say to put out the fire.. 

Best reply would be..

_"Dear Mrs. Jones.. I am sorry you feel what I charged you was excessive, but running a business has many costs you might not be aware of. 

A price was agreed on before work was started and I do my best to be fair with all my customers."_

Sincerely yours,
XXXXXXXXXXX


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

I don't know if you can make them feel better or not. A couple of things come to mind.

You had other time on the project that they didn't see (gather materials, permits, etc).

You have to earn enough money when you work to pay for vacation time, holiday time, etc.

Of course there is insurance, vehicle costs, etc.

You might want to work in how a lawyer charges $300 to $600 per hour. A doctor charges $100 for 10 minutes and you have to travel to their place of business.

I'm assuming the job went well, you can point out that if it didn't go well it would have been the same price.

I usually start off asking them what they think the price should be and why.

Good luck.


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## gnuuser (Jan 13, 2013)

tell them to check the instructions and local restriction on a homeowner installing generator panels.
including checking with their insurance company,
Ill bet they find that it will be very expensive in the long run to install it themselves.
getting the job done by an electrician can actually be of a benefit to them
insurance wise!

(after completing a job for one of my customers she turned in the inspection report and the bill to her insurance company and they lowered her premium payments) (plus i get referrals and free advertising from the insurance company):laughing:


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

georgep2 said:


> I received the following e-mail from a customer that I have done work for 3 times in the past. The last of which was a generator transfer panel about a month and a half ago. I gave a price up front and they were fine with it, but have since changed their mind.
> 
> I am trying to move away from speaking my mind because I don't think it helps. The last thing I need is bad reviews.
> 
> ...



Your response up to this point has been level-headed, and that's a good thing. You did nothing wrong here. You offered them a price to do the work, they agreed, then paid it, and now think it's too much? People are crazy!


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## georgep2 (Feb 26, 2013)

gnuuser said:


> tell them to check the instructions and local restriction on a homeowner installing generator panels.
> including checking with their insurance company,
> Ill bet they find that it will be very expensive in the long run to install it themselves.
> getting the job done by an electrician can actually be of a benefit to them
> insurance wise!


 Homeowners can do electrical work and pull permits in my state. Insurance company has nothing to do with it. Saying what you said will open up a whole new thing in which they would feel even more taken advantage of if they knew that anyone who is handy and can read instructions could install one of these systems. I'd rather avoid this altogether.



> (after completing a job for one of my customers she turned in the inspection report and the bill to her insurance company and they lowered her premium payments) (plus i get referrals and free advertising from the insurance company):laughing:


I don't know what that means but I don't think it applies to this situation.


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## jw0445 (Oct 9, 2009)

This is how I handled the latest one with diplomacy.

Customer email,

May I ask, how much was the bulb and how much was labor ?

I still wonder why it was the bulb - it DID light up - but then would go out for awhile... then come back on.

I was home sick yesterday and was sleeping when you called so didn't ask much.

My Response,

The bulb was cycling on and off due to it needing replacement. It’s a feature of the bulb called “ end of life cycling”. You can Google it to read more about this.

A service call is $60 for the first half hour and the bulb was $20. Even though it took longer than a half hour due to having to go get the bulb I always give a break to repeat customers such as yourself.

Please don’t hesitate to ask questions. That’s how we learn.

Thank you,


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## CraigV (May 12, 2011)

The time to question pricing is before both parties agree to a business transaction. Complaining after an agreed job is completed, without any "evidence" beyond the price of a part, is bad cricket. You charged 2x the material cost, and that's pretty much a good rule of thumb for general work in nearly any residential tradework.

But if you feel you must respond with an explanation, I'd recommend you schedule time to meet them in a neutral place like a local diner and discuss it face-to-face. Ask for time that you know is during their work day. If they are simply bitching, they won't be as likely to follow up if they have to take time from their day, and maybe they'll get the hint that your time isn't free either. And doing this during *your* work day shows them you value their business. But even if you do it in an evening, sitting face-to-face in a public place will...or should...remove emotion and put you both on a fair playing field.

Perhaps point out that the time you spent doing the work isn't the only factor in your labor. 
You responded to their initial call/email; that took time. 
You showed up to assess the job and create an estimate, and whatever negotiation time afterwards. 
The parts didn't grow organically within your van; you had to go to the supply house to order and purchase them. Ask them how long it took the husband to get to HD, find the switch, and drive home. It wasn't under a minute.
You showed up to do the actual work. You probably don't live next door, or park just around the corner, so commuting time again comes into play.
You had to take the time to accept and deposit their payment.
And finally, you are taking time to address their complaints after-the-fact. 

All of this doesn't even account for all the overhead time taken to be the guy with the van who shows up to install that xfer panel...truck maintenance, licensing, stock/inventory work, setting up advertising, etc etc...

Time = Money


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## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

How come when I go to a restaurant they charge me $30 for a steak that I can buy myself for $12 at the supermarket?


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## georgep2 (Feb 26, 2013)

EBFD6 said:


> How come when I go to a restaurant they charge me $30 for a steak that I can buy myself for $12 at the supermarket?


That's exactly what I would normally say, and much more. But I don't think it's good for business :laughing::thumbup:


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## sparkyforlife (Sep 4, 2012)

Ohh geez another one of these characters

Do they feel the same way about the car they bought? It took about 2 days to build and they paid 5 figures for it. 

I would say:

Since you have the professional electrical estimating experience please forward me your breakdown of what the job should cost and I will review it. :thumbsup:


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## sparkyforlife (Sep 4, 2012)

I find two common misconceptions with people about electricians...

1. Our salary is what we charge per hour.

2. They are paying for labor. Nope they are paying for SKILLED labor.

Electricians get lumped into the same category as ditch diggers by some


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## Jbird66 (Oct 26, 2010)

What value were they looking for that you did not deliver? I do not mean that disrespectful but perhaps you should think back on the situation from their view point and try to figure out why they all of a sudden do not think there was value in your price(when they had a couple times before). Since you already worked for them have you changed something?

I always call people like this on the phone. I never try to have an email conversation about a problem or an issue. Explain to them all the additional charges they do not see(license, insurance, fuel .......). 

At the end of it all if your reputation is at stake and if you do not want to risk a bad review only you can decide to try and find a middle ground to make them happy.

Good luck!


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## bmailman20 (Jan 4, 2013)

As a consumer, this sounds like a simple case of buyers remorse. They paid a fair price (albeit not cheap) for a service. I can guess that they haven't lost power for any extended amount of time in the last six weeks since you installed. They spent $900 and haven't seen any return on their investment. Next time they lose power in a hurricane or blizzard, they'll be calling it money well spent.


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## georgep2 (Feb 26, 2013)

Jbird66 said:


> What value were they looking for that you did not deliver? I do not mean that disrespectful but perhaps you should think back on the situation from their view point and try to figure out why they all of a sudden do not think there was value in your price(when they had a couple times before). Since you already worked for them have you changed something?
> 
> I always call people like this on the phone. I never try to have an email conversation about a problem or an issue. Explain to them all the additional charges they do not see(license, insurance, fuel .......).
> 
> ...


Nothing changed. I guess they originally thought that the material was $500-600 and the labor was $300 or so. When they found out that the material was only $300 they freaked out. Then they divided the $600 that they think I "made" by the 2 hours that they think I worked (as we all know it's a lot more than that) and think it's too much money for me to put into my pocket, because that is what electrician do, keep every cent :laughing:


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

sparkyforlife said:


> I find two common misconceptions with people about electricians...
> 
> 1. Our salary is what we charge per hour.
> 
> ...


 



I'll bet the customer said ... ( I could do it myself , .... but I don't have the time !)


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

georgep2 said:


> Nothing changed. I guess they originally thought that the material was $500-600 and the labor was $300 or so. When they found out that the material was only $300 they freaked out. Then they divided the $600 that they think I "made" by the 2 hours that they think I worked (as we all know it's a lot more than that) _*and think it's too much*_ *money for me to put into my pocket*,* because that is what electrician do*, *keep every cent* :laughing:


We're all nothing but a bunch money grubbing ,lying ,cheating , no good for nothing.:laughing:

I can't give you any advice on how to deal with a customer like that because I'm the type of person who would speak my mind a little too quickly.


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

"I am sorry you feel that way....there are tremendous cost associated with running a small business....the least of which are insurance,tools,vehicles, and regulations imposed by the local and state government...I can assure you the prices we charge are very fair and the near mention of gouging is not even remotely fair..we always encourage our customers to call around for comparable bids...my integrity as a contractor and small business owner are of the highest standards...as a final note...we carry over $5 thousand dollars worth of tools on our truck and carry $1 million dollars worth of insurance..trust me these things are not cheap...next time you and your husband are at the home depot feel free to look at tool prices....I only wish all things were free then I could price things as some folks seem fit...in closing thank you for using us and in the future please call around and get several bids on any project, for your own safety and piece of mind please use licensed and insured contractors...good day.."


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

georgep2 said:


> I received the following e-mail from a customer that I have done work for 3 times in the past. The last of which was a generator transfer panel about a month and a half ago. I gave a price up front and they were fine with it, but have since changed their mind.
> 
> I am trying to move away from speaking my mind because I don't think it helps. The last thing I need is bad reviews.
> 
> ...


Dear George 

Electricians should not make $600 for just a few hours of easy mindless work because the electrician at Home Depot told me he makes $480 per week , so how dare you rip us off so badly , yes George we have brand new $100,000 BMW's but we've earned them.., You should be ashamed of yourself for taking advantage of the fact that we are so well off , don't you realize how embarrassing this is to us,please return $564 as soon as possible , otherwise we will sue,,,,,,,,,,

After all how do you think we became so well off?:laughing:

Thief....


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## btharmy (Jan 17, 2009)

Whatever you do, DO NOT give any money back. That will justify their suspicion that you over charged. Let them know your price is not arbitrary, but is calculated to allow for acquiring the proper tools, materials and knowledge to do their job safely and efficiently. I have asked a customer (use at your own risk) "If it had taken me 8 hours instead of only 2, would you have paid me more money?" Of course not, they agreed upon a price before you started. They are not coming off of another penny just because you can't bid a job properly. Just because everything went perfect and you finish up a little quicker than they expected does not mean they are due any kind of refund. Just tell them, including picking up materials, permits, inspections and the actual install, the entire job can take anywhere from 4 to 8 hours. You have this in mind when writing your proposals and not all of your work is obvious to the homeowner. You have to plan for the worst case and hope for the best. You might also ask what the price of other proposals they received from the other contractors were. If they didn't shop around that is their fault. Maybe they should, even after the fact. It might serve to justify your invoice price.


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## NacBooster29 (Oct 25, 2010)

I have a similar but not quite the same story. My friend of 15 years bought a house. Moving day I help him move in, and fix a gfci he had miswired. No big deal. Layer that week. A zone valve on his furnace quit working. I walked him through how to trouble shoot the problem over the phone, and sure enough its the zone valve...
He had to call heating company to come out for the valve, guy charges 340. For the valve and labor. And recommends they have the furnace cleaned for 500. 
My buddy refused which is his choice, but then he calls me asking if I know any one who does side work. Cause he doesn't want to pay full price for the work..
I didn't refer anyone to him. Also my buddy wants a bunch more things done around his house electrically. Suddenly my schedule is full!! 
BTW I did not charge anything for the first fix, just helping a friend out.
But I won't do the kind of work he wants for nickels on the dollar, just because I know how he feels about skilled trades. And yes we are still friends. I just can't do the work.


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## Honestly (Feb 3, 2011)

Lots of good responses. I would hit two points quickly and then let it be:

1. General liability, work vehicle, work vehicle insurance, gas, work vehicle maintenance, workman's comp, self employment tax, social security, federal unemployment tax, phone and internet expenses, office space (with water, sewer, and electrical bills), state licenses, local licenses, tools, tool insurance, trade oriented protective clothing, permit fees, advertising, bookkeeping expenses, time and gas spent giving estimates to "tire kickers", health insurance, retirement, vacation, holidays, unbillable travel time, unbillable continuing education time, not to mention a whole bunch of RISK. Ask them to add these up for you so you can compare numbers.

2. I am fast, effective, and efficient at what I do. I try not to financially penalize myself because of this.


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## Spunk#7 (Nov 30, 2012)

A certain percentage of the buying public are life time members of an organization called "The Somethin' for Nothin' Club. Avoidance is the antidote,never mind being available for their emergencies,free advice,or anything else. I wouldn't respond to the complaint, or refund any money. Having a $200.00 minimum seems to weed a lot of this type out.


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## kennydmeek (Sep 12, 2009)

I have a regular customer freaking out about $212 for a fan remote(Flat Rate) She wanted to see it itemized so I itemized it at $254 and demonstrated the savings she attained with my flat rate program. Have yet to hear her response..


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

..when I feel push back from a customer or potential customer..I will add " you know a business is a lot like a home...the mortgage is just 1 small part of the cost....taxs, insurance, maintenance, gas, electric, repairs etc etc everyone has their hand out and they are all in line ahead of me:no:...sometimes it sinks in....sometimes it don't....


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## rrolleston (Mar 6, 2012)

oldtimer said:


> I'll bet the customer said ... ( I could do it myself , .... but I don't have the time !)


I would be rich if I had a buck for every time someone has said that to me.


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## georgep2 (Feb 26, 2013)

rrolleston said:


> I would be rich if I had a buck for every time someone has said that to me.


You know what I got today? The old "I know 5 people who want this same thing done so i could refer you, can you do better on the price??".

If I had $1 for each time I heard that I would probably have $40-45. And all that money came from hearing that line, NONE of it came from these referrals that they talk about


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

Dear Customer,

The price we agreed upon was accepted before the work was started. I'm sorry that you feel it was price gouging. And perhaps if I were putting all of it in my pocket, it might be. But the fact is I charge by the job, not by the hour. So, if it had taken me 15 hours instead of 2, it would have been the same.

What you have done is divided the total price by the total time to reach an average dollar per hour figure. I wish that I could say I put all of that money in my pocket, but alas, it goes into paying my overhead, which allows me to continue to provide a quality job to you and others in our community. And while yes those parts are readily available at Home Depot for $300, there is some assemble required.

Please feel free to contact me if you wish to discuss this any further. Otherwise, GFY.

Thanks,

George


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## sparkyforlife (Sep 4, 2012)

georgep2 said:


> You know what I got today? The old "I know 5 people who want this same thing done so i could refer you, can you do better on the price??".
> 
> If I had $1 for each time I heard that I would probably have $40-45. And all that money came from hearing that line, NONE of it came from these referrals that they talk about


I had that a couple months ago from an Indian guy. "I have a bunch of friends in the neighborhood who want the same thing"

Yay!! A bunch of work but no money...no thanks.

Call this guy


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## Tonedeaf (Nov 26, 2012)

Your are too cheap, I charge $1200 to install that transfer switch. I put two of them in since sandy


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## georgep2 (Feb 26, 2013)

Tonedeaf said:


> Your are too cheap, I charge $1200 to install that transfer switch. I put two of them in since sandy


Too cheap? :laughing: Get back to me when you have a clue.

BTW, Since Sandy I have installed around 45 portable generator connections (interlocks or transfer panels).


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

EBFD6 said:


> How come when I go to a restaurant they charge me $30 for a steak that I can buy myself for $12 at the supermarket?


Bring your own steak next time and ask them just to cook it for you.


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## rrolleston (Mar 6, 2012)

georgep2 said:


> You know what I got today? The old "I know 5 people who want this same thing done so i could refer you, can you do better on the price??".
> 
> If I had $1 for each time I heard that I would probably have $40-45. And all that money came from hearing that line, NONE of it came from these referrals that they talk about


I had a guy that would constantly be around the house doing nothing and I was there for a week fishing a bunch of wire every few min he was hovering around me saying I could do this but I don't have the time.

Would have at least been a sizable tip if I had a buck from every time he said that. Next time he called me I said I was too busy.


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## LightsOn81 (Jan 6, 2012)

There is a lot of good advice here. I wouldn't add much to it except itemizing the actual time and other overhead costs that go into it. I just had this conversation today with my buddy about customers haggling on the price. They are doing pretty good to have a generator with a transfer switch installed. If they were that concerned about the price why didnt they do their homework on how much it cost?

Plus they didn't consider the hazard factor. Did you install while energized? Nobody ever considers the stuff we deal with.

I'm always telling my wife, if you seen the stuff we have to do and take into consideration you would have a whole new appreciation on our trade.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

georgep2 said:


> Too cheap? :laughing: Get back to me when you have a clue.



So....your customer can't tell you what you should be charging but you can tell him that he is charging too much?

That's how it sounded.


As far as the customer:

_"The Home Depot is a multi billion dollar corporation who's buying power FAR exceeds my small business. There is absolutely no way I can compete with them on material pricing."
_

If you feel the need to explain more: 

_"Many of my clients will purchase items at The Home Depot. Sometimes I install them while other times I decline due to the problems that have come up in the past. Warranty issues, missing or broken parts are not uncommon and can take hours to resolve. If I am not selling the item, I can't be held responsible for it. 

Believe me, there are far more costs associated with operating a small business than you are considering. Standard practice is to mark up materials in order to cover possible warranty issues and to allow for some profit other than the installation labor costs."_


Then I'd blacklist them.


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

Dear XXXXXXX,


Thanks for your business.


Best Regards,


OP


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## georgep2 (Feb 26, 2013)

220/221 said:


> So....your customer can't tell you what you should be charging but you can tell him that he is charging too much?


 When did I say that he was charging too much? HE is the one who told me that I was charging too little.

I think he should get a clue because he can't tell me that what I charge is too little unless he knows all of my costs.



> That's how it sounded.


 Well, you are very wrong in your assumption. Just read what was written.

BTW, I never said that anyone (the person I was responding to or my customer) can't tell me their opinion, I was just asking for a reply that would be diplomatic. You need to step back.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

georgep2 said:


> but making $600 for a few hours work is on the verge of price gouging. Please get back to us as soon as possible.


:laughing:

Dear cheap person,

I respectfully invite you to stick your "idea" of "price gouging" up your ass.

- The contractor that never wants to hear from you ever again.


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## fondini (Dec 22, 2009)

I'd explain a little of the costs, then follow up with a high price offer on a service contract.


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

Thats so funny ive gotten two customers that re neged on a generator transfer panel.... i think alot of guys are doing these for like 450 - 500...


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## SVT CAMR (Apr 17, 2012)

Yup profit is a dirty word these days. I would not even respond to the email.


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## SVT CAMR (Apr 17, 2012)

captkirk said:


> Thats so funny ive gotten two customers that re neged on a generator transfer panel.... i think alot of guys are doing these for like 450 - 500...


Yup until we as electrician respect the trade ourselves how can a customer be expected to.


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## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

It wasn't until post #37 by 220/221, that a major factor had not been mentioned "WARRANTY". What does your state require in warranty time frame if any? Do you offer an extended warranty on parts and labor? Again these items are based on worst case scenarios but are the contractor's liability that the customer should be made aware of.

Write your response to all the pluses of your service and wiliness to be there for them when needed, in both new work and warranty work when needed.


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## Honestly (Feb 3, 2011)

SVT CAMR said:


> Yup profit is a dirty word these days. I would not even respond to the email.


Absolutely right. And that is one reason our country is screwed. Profit is THE indicator of an effective business that is meeting consumers' demands. If you demonize profit, you demonize the mechanism that businesses use to turn scarce resources into useful products and services- i.e. to generate WEALTH. :no::wallbash::wallbash::wallbash:


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## jproffer (Mar 24, 2007)

> Dear Customer,
> 
> The price we agreed upon was accepted before the work was started. I'm sorry that you feel it was price gouging. And perhaps if I were putting all of it in my pocket, it might be. But the fact is I charge by the job, not by the hour. So, if it had taken me 15 hours instead of 2, it would have been the same.
> 
> ...


:laughing::laughing: well.....now that I've cleaned up the water I WAS drinking.....


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

EBFD6 said:


> How come when I go to a restaurant they charge me $30 for a steak that I can buy myself for $12 at the supermarket?


$30 for a restaurant steak? 
I always go and get the $100 restaurant steak. 
Figure if I'm going to get gouged I want to be gouged by a professional and not some high school hack.


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## kejemere (Dec 13, 2011)

I would copy this whole thread and email it back to them. Perfect


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## heel600 (Oct 31, 2007)

gnuuser said:


> tell them to check the instructions and local restriction on a homeowner installing generator panels.
> including checking with their insurance company,
> Ill bet they find that it will be very expensive in the long run to install it themselves.
> getting the job done by an electrician can actually be of a benefit to them
> ...



I think you are missing the point....

The customer thinks that the OPs time is worth $10 hour.

They probably have fancy schmancy jobs and have no problem paying for a $200 dinner, but heaven forbid that someone without a college degree bill out $100 / hour.


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## Hotlegs (Oct 9, 2011)

Dear Mr. XXXXXX


Unfortunately I am out of the country right now and will call you when I am back in the states. I am at one of my French Villas on vacation. My private jet is broken and we are waiting for its repair as to make our jump back across the pond. I am sorry you feel as if you we're gouged but jet fuel is not cheap so I hope you understand I can not offer you a refund at this time. I thought we had settled on this price whilst having caviar at the polo club. My bad, 

Cheerio, George. P. II


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## georgep2 (Feb 26, 2013)

Hotlegs said:


> Dear Mr. XXXXXX
> 
> 
> Unfortunately I am out of the country right now and will call you when I am back in the states. I am at one of my French Villas on vacation. My private jet is broken and we are waiting for its repair as to make our jump back across the pond. I am sorry you feel as if you we're gouged but jet fuel is not cheap so I hope you understand I can not offer you a refund at this time. I thought we had settled on this price whilst having caviar at the polo club. My bad,
> ...


I just may reply to them with this. Maybe it will make them smile and lighten up. :laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

I've turned around pricing inquires by asking a number of clients what _they_ do for a living

You'd be surprised at how many employees of big biz are clueless of what thier own end product , or service, costs to maintain _them_


~CS~


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## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

In the spirit of shoveling 8 inches of snow just now, why does it cost $40 to plow a driveway when the driver is only there for 5 minutes? $8/minute is alot more than what any electrician charges.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Dear customer: Fu you. 



Have a nice day!


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## Linhawk (Apr 13, 2012)

*Teachers*



chicken steve said:


> I've turned around pricing inquires by asking a number of clients what _they_ do for a living
> 
> You'd be surprised at how many employees of big biz are clueless of what thier own end product , or service, costs to maintain _them_
> 
> ...


School teachers have been the most out of touch customer for me. They question my price nearly every time. They generally resent "blue collared" people that earn more than they do.


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

macmikeman said:


> Dear customer: Fu you.
> 
> 
> 
> Have a nice day!


stop sugar coating!!! now tell them what you really mean!!!:whistling2:


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## CraigV (May 12, 2011)

macmikeman said:


> Dear customer: Fu you.
> 
> 
> 
> Have a nice day!


One of my buddies ate dinner at a restaurant, got an email from them _asking for his opinion_, and replied honestly that he was a little disappointed with the meal. Next day he gets another email:

Dear XXXXXX,

F YOU!!!!!


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

CraigV said:


> One of my buddies ate dinner at a restaurant, got an email from them _asking for his opinion_, and replied honestly that he was a little disappointed with the meal. Next day he gets another email:
> 
> Dear XXXXXX,
> 
> F YOU!!!!!



Didn't the restaurant at least end the message the way I did? I'm shocked at their behavior, you wouldn't catch me leaving it out...........


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## cdslotz (Jun 10, 2008)

rlc3854 said:


> It wasn't until post #37 by 220/221, that a major factor had not been mentioned "WARRANTY". What does your state require in warranty time frame if any? Do you offer an extended warranty on parts and labor? Again these items are based on worst case scenarios but are the contractor's liability that the customer should be made aware of.
> 
> Write your response to all the pluses of your service and wiliness to be there for them when needed, in both new work and warranty work when needed.


My thought exactly. Even on jobs where the fixtures, gear, etc are owner furnished, I mark up as if I were furnishing. Mainly to protect my labor, but the specs require we warranty everything we install. Owner furnished or not.

Nice boxers ric


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

georgep2 said:


> You need to step back.



I took a few minutes of my precious free time to give some solid advice and I need to step back?

You need to learn how to run your business as well as you run your mouth. :laughing:


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

Here's a letter we sent when we used to bill customers. We are 99% C.O.D. now. 

Anyway, even if you do charge C.O.D. you can change this letter up and make it fit your circumstances.

Customer Name
Street 
City and State, Zip

Re:

Dear (Name)

I’m responding to your email expressing dismay about our prices. Yes, we do charge more than many other companies in the area, though not as much as others. I make no apologies for our pricing. I learned a long time ago that it is better to offer more value in quality services and charge a little more and explain our prices once in awhile than to skimp and live with a reputation for poor quality forever.

Why do we charge more? It’s a fair question. Let me endeavor to answer. First, our prices are not set by happenstance. They aren’t set to the level we think the market will bear. Neither are they set to the level our competitors charge. Our prices are set so that we can keep one dime out of every dollar after taxes. I think that’s fair.

The fact is that our prices are based on our costs. Out of every dollar we charge, we must pay for our technician’s salary, his worker’s compensation, his social security, his medical benefits, his uniform, ongoing training, the time it takes him to drive to your home, the truck, tools, the finance charges on the inventory he carries, the gas in the truck (I don’t need to tell you the cost of gas these days), the insurance for the truck, our business insurance, our license fees, our telephone line charges, our telephone system, someone to answer the phones and dispatch the technician (keeping track of the progress of every job to keep you informed when you can expect the technician), as well as their overhead, our computers, our software, someone to enter information into the computers and their overhead, accounting, billing, tax and legal services, an after-hours answering service, yellow pages advertising, other advertising, membership in professional organizations, reserves to ensure we can honor all our warrantees and guarantees, people to fill out dozens of forms and reports for various government regulators, taxes, and on and on.

It costs a lot of money to run an organization that is prepared to respond immediately (or at least the same day) to people like you who call us in a crisis because they have no heat, no electric, or a leak, or no hot water. You don’t want to wait three days until we can get around to it. That means we need extra resources standing by. Unfortunately, faster quality service is more expensive.

Yes, there are some in our community that charge less. There are some that hire less qualified personnel, who make lots of mistakes and must go back and correct them. There are some that do not train their workforce to keep up to speed with current codes and practices. There are some that drive beat-up old trucks that leak oil all over your driveway or in front of your home. There are some that do not conduct background checks on their employees or perform drug checks to ensure that you won’t have to worry about a service technician returning at night to rob you to support a drug habit (please don’t scoff; this is a real problem in our industry). There are some that do not carry the proper level of insurance to protect you in the event of a catastrophe. There are some that cut a lot of corners.

I can understand how you might be upset. If you walked into a nice steakhouse for dinner, you might also be upset to learn that you could have gotten a dinner at a buffet style restaurant for far less. Different businesses charge different prices for what appear to be similar products and services. Yet, rarely are the products and services the same. There are always differences.

When you called us, you may not have wanted the quality service and level of protection we offer. You did want our speed of response, however. The problem is the quality of service, level of protection, and speed of response come together as a package. We can’t break them apart or isolate one aspect of our service from another.

I think it’s fair to say that you understood what the cost was when you agreed to the service, just like you understood what the cost of a dinner is when you order from the menu at a restaurant. When you order a dinner and eat the meal, I doubt you try to walk out on the check even though you might think it’s pricey. I hope you give us the same consideration.


I’m not here to make excuses. I merely wanted to offer an explanation. I hope you have a better understanding than you did when you called.

Your bill was $899. It cost us $809. to provide you with that service, including taxes. We will only keep $90.

Now that you understand a little more about our cost situation, I will trust you to do what you think is right and moral. Just pay what you think is fair.

Sincerely,



XXXXX XXXXXXX 
General Manager


P.S. If your reluctance to pay is due to financial hardship we are unaware of, we will gladly work out an arrangement to accommodate your budget. Call me.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

As tempting as it is, I would avoid the wall-of-text explanation. Like another poster said, it would simply come across as an excuse.

I would also never give money back, because that would "confirm" their suspicions that you were unnecessarily high.

Short and sweet, I would explain:
- Running a business costs a lot, and that was not pure profit.
- The price is competitive, they are free to shop around; it wasn't gouging.
- You stand behind the service and product you provided 100%.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

flyboy said:


> Here's a letter we sent when we used to bill customers. We are 99% C.O.D. now.
> 
> Anyway, even if you do charge C.O.D. you can change this letter up and make it fit your circumstances.
> 
> ...


Did you compose this?


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

I find haggling _after_ the $$$ negotiations disingenuous , and really can't see why the onus of explaining_ anything _is on me.

I can understand the blue haired old ladies living in 1962's inability to grasp today's pricing when it's thrust upon them via a service call

But those that shake my hand on a deal, and decide to_ whine_ later deserve no quarter

We went through a number of _'friendly collection folks' _before i realized that at the point they're activated,_ 'customer retention'_ is basically synomomous with _'bowel occlusion'_for biz....

Last collection agency i solicited basically operate on the edge of the law like rabid animals on crack

~CS~


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## SVT CAMR (Apr 17, 2012)

flyboy said:


> I can understand how you might be upset. If you walked into a nice steakhouse for dinner, you might also be upset to learn that you could have gotten a dinner at a buffet style restaurant for far less. Different businesses charge different prices for what appear to be similar products and services. Yet, rarely are the products and services the same. There are always differences.




This pretty much sums it up. 

I mean anybody who is having trouble charging - raising their prices because they think it will be too high.

Find a way to be better and different. :thumbsup: just my 2cents.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Then be different, but be prepared to define those differences 

Otherwise it's nothing more than a colorful verbal diversion 

Burger king? or McDonalds....?


~CS~


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## SVT CAMR (Apr 17, 2012)

chicken steve said:


> Then be different, but be prepared to define those differences
> 
> Otherwise it's nothing more than a colorful verbal diversion
> 
> ...


or perhaps Peter Luger's


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

hardworkingstiff said:


> Did you compose this?


No, I rewrote the original version of this. I don't know who the person is that originally composed it or I would have given them credit.

It's been out there a long time, I know that.

There's no copyright on it.


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## 24 big guy (Jun 29, 2011)

NacBooster29 said:


> I have a similar but not quite the same story. My friend of 15 years bought a house. Moving day I help him move in, and fix a gfci he had miswired. No big deal. Layer that week. A zone valve on his furnace quit working. I walked him through how to trouble shoot the problem over the phone, and sure enough its the zone valve...
> He had to call heating company to come out for the valve, guy charges 340. For the valve and labor. And recommends they have the furnace cleaned for 500.
> My buddy refused which is his choice, but then he calls me asking if I know any one who does side work. Cause he doesn't want to pay full price for the work..
> I didn't refer anyone to him. Also my buddy wants a bunch more things done around his house electrically. Suddenly my schedule is full!!
> ...


Better man than me I have the same problem with my best friend a college professor & lawyer. I do it cause it's my best friend, but man do we battle lol


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## 24 big guy (Jun 29, 2011)

Went to a potential job today customer wanted a tv mounted on there wall which also has a pocket door there is a stud to mount and would also need a few toggle bolts. I provide a p&s recessed tv box with the surge outlet and run the component wires provided by customer. Told the customer cost of job is $475 response is that's way too much best buy and Costco are way cheaper, so of course I respond with the norm of business cost and etc and the fact that best buy and Costco don't employ licensed electricians and that if they run the wires in the wall they were running the power cable in the wall as well which is illegal. I walked out and told her to have a nice day.


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## 24 big guy (Jun 29, 2011)

*Here's a great one- LONG READ*

I was a part of a networking group called BNI and i did some work for one of the memebers. 1st mistake didnt give an upfront price 2nd mistake thinking there wouldnt be an issue with price seeing as im dealing with another business owner. OK HERE WE GO

Invoice sent June 2012??

Hi there I would like to thank you for giving ??????? Electric the opportunity to work on your job and provide you with our quality services. Described below is the scope of the job, the duration of the job, and the cost of the proposed work outline.


*Work Outline*

Troubleshooting of the foyer lights which was the result of a loose neutral, which has since been repaired.
Installation of a 3-way switching system for the basement stairs the original switch was converted to the appropriate style and the other 3-way was added and located on the closet wall in the basement.
Installation of 2 ceiling fan/lights, located in the upstairs bathroom
*Provisions*

Any changes to the scope of work shall have the proper change order signed off by the customer. (Extras shall be paid in half before start of work and remainder of balance to be paid upon completion of extras.)
All materials and equipment provided by ???? Electric.
All electrical work is guaranteed for life. (Excludes- materials, and equipment)
2,000,000 million liability insurance policy to be obtained by ????? Electric.
All estimates are valid for 1 month unless otherwise noted.
Generator warranty covered by manufacturer only
Estimated time of completion: Completed
Estimate Job Cost: $575

After sending out the invoivce i get this response and reply back as well



Customer

big guy, just going thru my Sunday night ritual of filing papers and just saw your bill. Seems excessive. Can you tell me the breakdown. Thanks.
· 24 big guy

hi Customer sorry for the delay. the break down would look like this i price my job based on the tasks at hand and the average time it should take. i get many calls for trouble shooting and i charge $150 for this and i have found most problems within 20 min, it took longer about 2 hrs to find the problem. i charge $150 per fan 250 for multiples, which i had dropped down to $200 and adding of the extra switch i charge $225 that particular task didn't have as much involved for that particular task but did take longer than anticipated due to the angle i had to drill at and the care taken to not penetrate or destroy the existing walls . thats how i got to the $575 if for some reason you still need a further rundown please feel free to call me tom. i do hope i cleared up any discrepency. as i continue to develop and progress with my business

Customer

Thanks Big Guy for the quick reply. I feel it is bad business practice to charge for the work done, and for coming over. When someone comes to me for a consultation, I charge them. But if after the consultation they want me to implement my ideas, then the consultation fee is waived and is built into the implementation. If you continue your current practice, people will feel that you have double dipped. I have had many tradesmen come over and if they do the work, then there is no charge for just coming over on top of getting paid to do the work.

Customer

Secondly, one fan was already installed. The wiring at the end that connected the lights fixture wasn't properly stripped to make the connection. I am hoping you adjust your invoice to reflect these points. I like you a lot Big Guy and I have been in business for more than 20 years. I am just pointing out pitfalls for your benefit. You must leave a customer with a WOW experience, only then do referrals happen. In your business, there is no assurance of repeat business/recurring revenue. In mine there is so I have many chances to deliver the WOW experience.
· 24 Big Guy


Hi Kash. I have just finished working for today it was hell outside, as I had to work in the sun for over 9 hrs. I appreciate your advice and insight, I will need a day or two to address this matter. I hope this won't be an issue
Customer Aug ??


Big guy, I am still waiting for your revised invoice. I want to pay you for your work. Please try to get that to me when you can. I am sure you can use the money.

Also, one of the fans still makes a noise and can only be run at the lowest speed, which doesn't help in this weather. When can you come to fix that?
Hi there Customer I do applogize for the time its taken for me to address the situation. 1st off I hadn't read the end of the last message till just now and saw that the fan was making noises, if thats still a problem I'd be happy to address the problem.

my response on Sept 17

Now to the main part of the revising of the statement. I have taken all of your info into account. You point out that I double dipped which is not something I do. I believe you might have misunderstood my breakdown of the job tasks, for trouble shooting the fee is $150 which covers diagnosing and repairing the problem as long as it is a device or mechanical connection problem if the wire is shorting and needs to be re-ran then that fee gets waived and incorporate my time into the new price, which wasnt the case for you. But in the time I took to find the issue with the 1st floor lighting it took over 2 hrs to find the source of the problem my fee covers an hour so i stuck with my price cause I failed to find it in the usual amount of time. 

When it became evident the 1st day the problem with the 1st floor lighting couldn't be found. You asked me to address the next problem which was a ceiling/fan light in the upstairs bedroom. To find the problem with that fan I had to completely disassemble the unit down to the mounting bracket, which as a result I was able to see the problem and correct it. I then had to reassemble the unit, I then went on to disassemble another fan unit and install a new unit that also requiered assembly in the baby's room. For the task of mounting a ceiling fan/light the fee is $150 when mounting multiples the fee is $250 the fee that was charged $200. 

When I finished with the 2nd floor ceiling fan/lights it was late so I left. Time spent at your house 1st day was 3 hrs not including travel. Over that night i was able to think of where the problem would be and when i showed up the next morning after talking with you about it we came to the same conclusion. The problem happened to be in the junction box in your mothers room an unspliced neutral.

To fix this problem the fan unit had to be dissassembled including the mounting bracket and then reassembled after fixing the splice. This took around 40 45 min?? so in total the whole fixing of the 1st floor lighting was 2hrs 45 min. Still only charged $150 for that task. The last task which was adding the 3way switch in the basement was $225 which took me 2hrs. If you add up all of the time it comes to 6hrs not including the travel.

In total the price was $575 which if broken down into time and material minus material $25 the hourly breakdown is $91. Now this wasn't a t&m becuase as we had talked about that I flat rate my jobs based off of the task not t&m. The one problem is I didn't give you the price before work started, which is a mistake that has been made before with Customer Cassidy. 

*I think my price was fair. If after going over it you don't agree then I would ask you in all honesty what you think the value of the work completed was worth and I ask this in the most sincerest way. I really do value the insight I've gained from you since joining the group and look forward to learning more. I do hope that this won't affect our relationship going forward. ( this was not origanally highlited or underlined) *

to which he replied Oct 31

Let me first apologize for the time it has taken to get back to you. There is no excuse other than the BS "Oh it got buried away, I was busy.....". I am sorry and it is unacceptable. You did work and you need to be compensated for it. Quite simple.

I do want to comment on this though. I have been in business for 20 years and I have lots of experience billing people and getting billed. Frankly, a consultation fee and the charge for performing the work should be separate. But when the consultation results in performing the work, then the consultation fee is waived. For example, a couple came to see me in the past month. Initially they just wanted a consultation, for which I charged them $100 per hour. When they wanted me to them implement my recommendation (instead of them going away and trying to do it themselves), then that fee was waived because now I am going to be paid for the implementation. This is the normal modus operandi. You are free to run your business the way you want, that's why we are privileged to live in a free country, but I am telling you from extensive experience that you will find your approach will alienate many people. You will find that most people will not want to pay for you to come over and then to pay you again for doing the work. I will agree with you that perhaps you should have made that apparent at the start, and perhaps that's what happened with Customer Cassidy.

Let's put this issue to rest. I think it would be fair to remove the charge for driving over. Let me know your thoughts and I will ensure a check goes out ASAP. Like I said, this has been delayed too much and you do not deserve to be deprived of your compensation for work already done. Again, I am sorry for that. I do admire you and your enthusiasm. Like I have said it takes lots of guts to start your own business, you should feel very proud of yourself. You inspire me with your courage.


I am Truly sorry for taking up space or your time i hope this might help some and maybe you guys can rip me up n help me get a little better


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

24 big guy said:


> Went to a potential job today customer wanted a tv mounted on there wall which also has a pocket door there is a stud to mount and would also need a few toggle bolts. I provide a p&s recessed tv box with the surge outlet and run the component wires provided by customer. Told the customer cost of job is $475 response is that's way too much best buy and Costco are way cheaper, so of course I respond with the norm of business cost and etc and the fact that best buy and Costco don't employ licensed electricians and that if they run the wires in the wall they were running the power cable in the wall as well which is illegal. I walked out and told her to have a nice day.


Sometimes you have to do this. Experience is always the key. :thumbsup:


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

SVT CAMR said:


> or perhaps Peter Luger's


I have no problem being the Peter Luger's of electrical contracting. None whatsoever. :no:


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

Magnettica said:


> I have no problem being the Peter Luger's of electrical contracting. None whatsoever. :no:


At least you're not the Peter D. of electrical contracting:thumbsup:


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

5 months of banter for short $$$ Big Guy

I must say that_ is_ going the distance

points for origniality too, as folks may be insulted with plagiarization .....

~CS~


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## jproffer (Mar 24, 2007)

> Went to a potential job today customer wanted a tv mounted on there wall which also has a pocket door there is a stud to mount and would also need a few toggle bolts. I provide a p&s recessed tv box with the surge outlet and run the component wires provided by customer. Told the customer cost of job is $475 response is that's way too much best buy and Costco are way cheaper, so of course I respond with the norm of business cost and etc and the fact that best buy and Costco don't employ licensed electricians and that if they run the wires in the wall they were running the power cable in the wall as well which is illegal. *I walked out and told her to have a nice day.*


I hope you got paid first....you don't really say for sure. If not, then that's exactly what the bi+ch wanted.

EDIT: Nevermind...potential job....good job gettin' the hell outta Dodge.


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## GLS (Jul 10, 2011)

24 big guy said:


> I was a part of a networking group called BNI and i did some work for one of the memebers. 1st mistake didnt give an upfront price 2nd mistake thinking there wouldnt be an issue with price seeing as im dealing with another business owner. OK HERE WE GO
> 
> Invoice sent June 2012??
> 
> ...




Hi BigGuy,

You both are using similar terms but understand them differently. He is seeing your diagnostic charge as "I charge you for an estimate, and credit you back when I get the work." That is how he does it, and he keeps repeating that. His "consultation" is an estimate, and he credits his customers when they use his services.

However, in our trade, anything more than quick look is part of the work. He doesn't get that. In his mind he is comparing troubleshooting to his "consultation." So you might try explaining to him that you don't charge for estimates (if you don't) or that if an estimating charge was in order, you WOULD credit him once the estimate was accepted. Troubleshooting however, was part of the work, necessary to the work, and that if you had realized that he just wanted an estimate, would have given him one instead of making the repairs. The repairs have been made, and troubleshooting is part of that process.

Being part of BNI makes it harder, since you don't want him bad mouthing you. It's all about referrals there.

So, hopefully he understands the difference between troubleshooting and consulting. If he doesn't, cut your losses and away from him, he isn't an honest player. There are jerks in BNI too. Been there, done that. But there are great people as well.
Judging from the last paragraph, it looks like he'll settle if you drop the trip charge. You might have to go that route.

But all that crap about inspiring him would make me want to stay as far away as possible. 

And I can say this as well, from painful experience, give everyone a written estimate. That way there are no misunderstandings. 

Just my .02
G


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## NacBooster29 (Oct 25, 2010)

Wow big guy. The price you gave was more than reasonable. Restructure your billing to say x [email protected] $ $$.$ to reflect your hourly rate, which would probably exceed your flat rate price. Then thank the customer for pointing out you had shorted yourself! It is difficult to run a small business after all.


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## 24 big guy (Jun 29, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> 5 months of banter for short $$$ Big Guy
> 
> I must say that is going the distance
> 
> ...


Yea it does seem like that honestly we went back n forth thru Facebook messenger so he would send a message I'd read it and reply some times it'd be a day, but when he told me to revise it I didn't bother I waited a week or too then responded with how my price works. Then I got the one which said I'm sure you could use the money and I didn't bother too even respond to the last message. He would pay if I changed my price long n short if I cut $100 off of my price then I'm barely clearing $75/hr for the business over 6hrs split over 2 days.

Oh the kicker he is a financial advisor and is good at what he does, it was definitely a slap in the face him thinking that cause he has made money and has a chance to make more possibly. That I must need the $575 he owes I want all the money I'm ever owed but I'm also not gonna wait around for a person to do the right thing.

I plan on making a consult with him then ask him to deposit my invoice that he owes into my investment fund that he will set up free of charge of course. Hahahaha Lololololol


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## 24 big guy (Jun 29, 2011)

GLS said:


> Hi BigGuy,
> 
> You both are using similar terms but understand them differently. He is seeing your diagnostic charge as "I charge you for an estimate, and credit you back when I get the work." That is how he does it, and he keeps repeating that. His "consultation" is an estimate, and he credits his customers when they use his services.
> 
> ...


Yes BNI is a racket, I am no longer a member of any of there groups. He obviously didn't understand the difference between troubleshooting/diagnostics and an estimate. He asked me to come look at a problem and pricing was never discussed 1st hand, big mistake will not happen again, I do give a free estimate, my diagnostic entails finding and fixing any mechanical deficiencies or issues with devices, if it's noted that the issue resides with the wiring then I give an estimate to repair the problem and roll the diagnostic into the new price as long as the issue is found within the 1st half hour, if it takes longer to find issue that isn't mechanical then diagnostic fee still applies.

I just had a similar call customer asks for estimate I show up he explains he got letter from POCO and there is an issue in the meter he asks for me too look at it and confirm for him, I explain I will need to get paid if I'm to inspect some equipment, he couldn't fathom how I was charging for an estimate, I explained that he didn't ask me to give him an estimate for any work he asked me to inspect the meter to confirm the issue, so I explained that if he brings his car to mechanic the mech charges to find the problem however if you tell your mech I want xxx and xxx done the they can give you an estimate, he just couldn't grasp that fact of what I was saying.


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## 24 big guy (Jun 29, 2011)

[But all that crap about inspiring him would make me want to stay as far away as possible.

And I can say this as well, from painful experience, give everyone a written estimate. That way there are no misunderstandings.]

The inspiring thing must be in correlation to me starting a business in the midst of an economic instability, and the fact that customers like him will shaft me from getting paid.

And yes your correct a written estimate should be made even a quick email with the price and asking for a confirmation email which is binding. I have a lawyer who specializes in business & unemployment law, happens to be my best friend, love free legal advice


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## CraigV (May 12, 2011)

24 big guy said:


> I was a part of a networking group called BNI and i did some work for one of the memebers. 1st mistake didnt give an upfront price 2nd mistake thinking there wouldnt be an issue with price seeing as im dealing with another business owner. OK HERE WE GO
> 
> Invoice sent June 2012??
> 
> ...


I think you went above and beyond to accomodate this guy. He fails to allow for the simple fact that different types of businesses have different pricing models, which is unfortunate for someone who seems to love stating his time-in-service is two decades. 

Calling your troubleshooting work "consulting", and then using that term as an excuse to apply a pricing policy that he wrongly assumes is universal throughout all businesses makes his ignorance visible. Anyone in business twenty years should be wise enough to assume that the clock starts when you walk through his door, and never assume that any charges would be refunded unless actually stated otherwise. 

He's also quite wrong in assuming that consulting businesses universally refund "consulting" fees if "work" is then performed. Businesses that do "consulting" charge for that service, as that is indeed "work". 

And finally, it appears that he is acting as, or assuming a role as, a business mentor to you as part of the membership mentioned in the post. It is unethical of him to engage in a business transaction with you, fail to mentor you to provide him with written or explicit verbal notice of your pricing policy, and then use this failure to beat you up financially after the fact.


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## 24 big guy (Jun 29, 2011)

CraigV said:


> And finally, it appears that he is acting as, or assuming a role as, a business mentor to you as part of the membership mentioned in the post. It is unethical of him to engage in a business transaction with you, fail to mentor you to provide him with written or explicit verbal notice of your pricing policy, and then use this failure to beat you up financially after the fact.


Amen


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

24 big guy said:


> Went to a potential job today customer wanted a tv mounted on there wall which also has a pocket door there is a stud to mount and would also need a few toggle bolts. I provide a p&s recessed tv box with the surge outlet and run the component wires provided by customer. Told the customer cost of job is $475 response is that's way too much best buy and Costco are way cheaper, so of course I respond with the norm of business cost and etc and the fact that best buy and Costco don't employ licensed electricians and that if they run the wires in the wall they were running the power cable in the wall as well which is illegal. I walked out and told her to have a nice day.


Best buy and Costco=free labor..


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

24 big guy said:


> Went to a potential job today customer wanted a tv mounted on there wall which also has a pocket door there is a stud to mount and would also need a few toggle bolts. I provide a p&s recessed tv box with the surge outlet and run the component wires provided by customer. Told the customer cost of job is $475 response is that's way too much best buy and Costco are way cheaper, so of course I respond with the norm of business cost and etc and the fact that best buy and Costco don't employ licensed electricians and that if they run the wires in the wall they were running the power cable in the wall as well which is illegal. I walked out and told her to have a nice day.


BTW if they are advertising Electrical work without the required License number in their ads they can be fined.

(2) A licensee shall only engage in the electrical trade or otherwise conduct business in the name printed on his or her license. Any sign, advertisement or other business communication of a Master electrician (Class A) or Journeyman electrician (Class B) or Systems Contractor (Class C) shall indicate the type of license and the license number.


http://www.mass.gov/ocabr/licensee/dpl-boards/el/regulations/rules-and-regs/237-cmr-1800.html




.


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## CraigV (May 12, 2011)

HARRY304E said:


> BTW if they are advertising Electrical work without the required License number in their ads they can be fined.
> 
> (2) A licensee shall only engage in the electrical trade or otherwise conduct business in the name printed on his or her license. Any sign, advertisement or other business communication of a Master electrician (Class A) or Journeyman electrician (Class B) or Systems Contractor (Class C) shall indicate the type of license and the license number.
> 
> ...


I'll bet they (Costco, Bust Buy, etc) weasel out of this because the wording states that the _licensee _has to state their license # in their ads. Costco, etc.'s ads aren't posted by the electrician.


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## CraigV (May 12, 2011)

24 big guy said:


> Yes BNI is a racket, I am no longer a member of any of there groups. He obviously didn't understand the difference between troubleshooting/diagnostics and an estimate. He asked me to come look at a problem and pricing was never discussed 1st hand, big mistake will not happen again, I do give a free estimate, my diagnostic entails finding and fixing any mechanical deficiencies or issues with devices, if it's noted that the issue resides with the wiring then I give an estimate to repair the problem and roll the diagnostic into the new price as long as the issue is found within the 1st half hour, if it takes longer to find issue that isn't mechanical then diagnostic fee still applies.
> 
> I just had a similar call customer asks for estimate I show up he explains he got letter from POCO and there is an issue in the meter he asks for me too look at it and confirm for him, I explain I will need to get paid if I'm to inspect some equipment, he couldn't fathom how I was charging for an estimate, I explained that he didn't ask me to give him an estimate for any work he asked me to inspect the meter to confirm the issue, so I explained that if he brings his car to mechanic the mech charges to find the problem however if you tell your mech I want xxx and xxx done the they can give you an estimate, he just couldn't grasp that fact of what I was saying.


He grasped it, but couldn't figure out a comeback that would give him the upper hand in his effort to get free labor.


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## Hawkrod (Mar 19, 2012)

flyboy said:


> No, I rewrote the original version of this. I don't know who the person is that originally composed it or I would have given them credit.
> 
> It's been out there a long time, I know that.
> 
> There's no copyright on it.


 Just a minor point that you may not be aware of. That is definitely copyright protected and only the copyright owner can declare free use (and then it is still copyrighted). Copyright is not something you have to apply for or get a record of. I do write and most people are completly unaware of what and how a copyright works. Anything written is copyrighted automatically and no submission or registration is required to activate a copyright. Enforcement of a copyright is a completely different issue.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

CraigV said:


> I'll bet they (Costco, Bust Buy, etc) weasel out of this because the wording states that the _licensee _has to state their license # in their ads. Costco, etc.'s ads aren't posted by the electrician.


Yes,But once they start advertising a service that is electrical work then they must show the master Electrician license number that says Costco. Inc. on it.

It must be registered with the board in their business name.


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

Hawkrod said:


> Just a minor point that you may not be aware of. That is definitely copyright protected and only the copyright owner can declare free use (and then it is still copyrighted). Copyright is not something you have to apply for or get a record of. I do write and most people are completly unaware of what and how a copyright works. Anything written is copyrighted automatically and no submission or registration is required to activate a copyright. Enforcement of a copyright is a completely different issue.


I'm totally aware of it. I've had to defend my own material on that very premise. I'm not in the least bit concerned with it as it applies to the letter I shared here on the forum. Or, I would not have posted it.


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## Hawkrod (Mar 19, 2012)

flyboy said:


> I'm totally aware of it. I've had to defend my own material on that very premise. I'm not in the least bit concerned with it as it applies to the letter I shared here on the forum. Or, I would not have posted it.


 I was not commenting regarding concern for that letter, I posted solely in regards to copyright concept itself because it is so misunderstood and I have had to deal with it on numerous occassions. Too many people think that because they can copy and paste off of internet forums and websites that commentary such as this discussion or even that letter are not copyrighted. I always post when this subject comes up.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Sounds like a deeper pockets scenario Hawk.....~CS~


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

I was behind BG until this gem.



> The one problem is I didn't give you the price before work started,


Deal breaker. 

Your bad. Save the several months of aggravation, lower the invoice and move on.


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## 24 big guy (Jun 29, 2011)

HARRY304E said:


> BTW if they are advertising Electrical work without the required License number in their ads they can be fined.
> 
> (2) A licensee shall only engage in the electrical trade or otherwise conduct business in the name printed on his or her license. Any sign, advertisement or other business communication of a Master electrician (Class A) or Journeyman electrician (Class B) or Systems Contractor (Class C) shall indicate the type of license and the license number.
> 
> ...


You right Harry but go to best buy and they will send a guy to mount your tv lic not required and he will run component and speaker wire also no lic required and they will do that for way less than I will, but the difference is they will run the tv cord behind the Sheetrock which is illegal and cause they aren't licensed they won't provide the pass & Seymour recessed tv box with surge receptacle. 

They didn't find me on CL I don't post there it was a HO/SM lead.


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## 24 big guy (Jun 29, 2011)

220/221 said:


> I was behind BG until this gem.
> 
> Deal breaker.
> 
> Your bad. Save the several months of aggravation, lower the invoice and move on.


As much as this was negligence on my part the same could be said for the customer who asked for me to perform work without asking what my rate is. Again this was a person whom I shared a business relationship with as a part of the net working group. He knowingly asked me to perform services without asking my rates he thought cause we are BNI members he would get the instant hookup, I was actually more than fair with my price ESP when I went back on 2 separate days.

Someone mentioned he didn't see the distinction between his consultation fee and my diagnostic fee my fee includes the repair of any mechanical or device issue ie a switch or duplex other equipment like a gfci or breaker the materials is added on, if the issue is not a mechanical or device issue and has to do with the wiring then I give an estimate for the task needed to be performed, and I waive the fee or incorporate it into my price like some have discussed depends on if I find issue right away or have to do some actual troubleshooting.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

I agree, it sounds like he's playing you.

I said before, I don't like the wall-of-text answers, and part of the reason is it gives people too many points to pick apart and play games with, and you end up on their terms instead of yours.

I would make a conscious effort to be as concise as possible in my answers and explanations.

"Troubleshooting is not consulting. My business does not operate the same way yours does because these are different fields with different demands. These are my rates, and this is my price."


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## sparkyforlife (Sep 4, 2012)

ahhh the typical "I've been in business for 30 years you are doing it wrong and your prices are high" It's all a game this dude is playing you. 

Everyone magically becomes "business professionals" at the time of billing

And what is with the "I want to pay you, I'm sure you can use the money" smartass remark? 

I would reply "sounds like you need the money more then me that's why you are bitching about my price"


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## sparkyforlife (Sep 4, 2012)

This is why everything I do is agreed upon upfront. If it has to be a T&M job like a whole house rewire they get a price "not to exceed".

No email drama for me.


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## 24 big guy (Jun 29, 2011)

sparkyforlife said:


> ahhh the typical "I've been in business for 30 years you are doing it wrong and your prices are high" It's all a game this dude is playing you.
> 
> Everyone magically becomes "business professionals" at the time of billing
> 
> ...


Yea I read that I was like wtf just cause you have a mil or more doesn't mean I'm hurting for money, yes I want my money that's owed but I'm also not a bum who needs to strip his pride or self worth for some money I purposely never responded cause of that I figured he'd realize I never changed the invoice and just pay me when that didn't happen I sent him a message to which I never got a response or payment.

Yes I could cut my bill and get paid I instead will have him do my work for free while getting my compensation, he'll feel like an ass when I show up for a consult to invest and ask that he invest what he owes me into an aggressive fund. Can't wait to see the look on his face.


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## Fishingeveryday (Jul 16, 2012)

24 big guy said:


> Yea I read that I was like wtf just cause you have a mil or more doesn't mean I'm hurting for money, yes I want my money that's owed but I'm also not a bum who needs to strip his pride or self worth for some money I purposely never responded cause of that I figured he'd realize I never changed the invoice and just pay me when that didn't happen I sent him a message to which I never got a response or payment.
> 
> Yes I could cut my bill and get paid I instead will have him do my work for free while getting my compensation, he'll feel like an ass when I show up for a consult to invest and ask that he invest what he owes me into an aggressive fund. Can't wait to see the look on his face.


I had the same sort of situation with BNI. 

Did work for a lawyer and gave him an amazing deal on work. Installed 8 pot lights in finished basement, repaired faulty GFI's in his back yard, installed GFI breakers on two of his circuits all for 1500 tax in. 

The backyard receptacles were a disaster and took me a whole day to fix. I didn't increase the price and he really didn't seem to appreciate it or care. 

Long story short the job ended up taking just under 2.5 days to complete and he was being an ass to me because he thought things were taking too long. 

He then asked me to install a sconce where I would have to fish the box in for free. I told him it was risky as I might damage the drywall trying to get the wire in. 

I ended up punching through the drywall on the bathroom side as I was using a flex bit to go through the joists. He freaked out, called me a terrible sparky and refused to pay me the remainder of my far too small fee ($500). 

He then went and bad mouthed me to the rest of the group at the next meeting. No one backed me up so I was out of there!

That is only one story of "earning" people's referrals for zero money in BNI. What a joke!


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

Fishingeveryday said:


> I had the same sort of situation with BNI.
> 
> Did work for a lawyer and gave him an amazing deal on work. Installed 8 pot lights in finished basement, repaired faulty GFI's in his back yard, installed GFI breakers on two of his circuits all for 1500 tax in.
> 
> ...


Your 1st mistake was working for an attorney. They are in the business of taking advantage of people.


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## Stranded (Mar 1, 2013)

hardworkingstiff said:


> Your 1st mistake was working for an attorney. They are in the business of taking advantage of people.


The second mistake was working 2 and a half days for $1,500.


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## Fishingeveryday (Jul 16, 2012)

hardworkingstiff said:


> Your 1st mistake was working for an attorney. They are in the business of taking advantage of people.


My first mistake was giving him a break on price as a loss leader. I have since learned to call those jobs LOSERS. And hear attack inducers. Lol

The attorney thing was my second mistake. 

This was very early on when I opened the doors. I have learned ALOT since then. Some of which is straight from you HWS. Thanks!


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## Fishingeveryday (Jul 16, 2012)

Stranded said:


> The second mistake was working 2 and a half days for $1,500.


My original estimate was one day and even that was cheap for all the work. 

This job was awesome because it taught me the value of clearly defining exactly what I am charging for. 

In the case of the backyard I figured it was two bad GFI's. replace them, install in use covers and life is good. Ended up I had to replace conduit, re pull wire, everything was wired incorrectly, and there were boxes that had receptacles on them that we're literally buried under dirt. 

At the time I was intimidated by this guy. He is a well know big time lawyer in my city and I wanted to make a good impression and get hooked up with his network. Now I know that people value your work and time at the rate you charge it out at. 

I was WAY too cheap and when things went sideways he immediately decided I was a bum. I should have charged him for all that work. Even if he refused I would have saved 1.5 days of pure hell. Live and learn.


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

Some of the worst customers I ever had were , LAWYERS .

Second worst , COPS .

Third worst , PRIESTS or NUNS .

Sense of entitlement , maybe ?

Obviously they are better than the rest of us ! :whistling2:


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## kennydmeek (Sep 12, 2009)

Fishingeveryday said:


> I had the same sort of situation with BNI.
> 
> Did work for a lawyer and gave him an amazing deal on work.


Why would you do that? Last lawyer I had billed me at $1k hr. He'da been the full $250...you only have to justify your rate to him with a simple question...


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## Fishingeveryday (Jul 16, 2012)

kennydmeek said:


> Why would you do that? Last lawyer I had billed me at $1k hr. He'da been the full $250...you only have to justify your rate to him with a simple question...


Everyone in the network told me if I impressed him I would have access to some of the wealthiest people in my city. 

I had not yet realized the rich are the cheapest most PIA customers there are. Lol

Give me a middle class family any day. They decide if they want to move forward or not, you ask them a question they get back to you right away. Way easier.


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

georgep2 said:


> I received the following e-mail from a customer that I have done work for 3 times in the past. The last of which was a generator transfer panel about a month and a half ago. I gave a price up front and they were fine with it, but have since changed their mind.
> 
> I am trying to move away from speaking my mind because I don't think it helps. The last thing I need is bad reviews.
> 
> ...


The saying " nice guys finish last " came from someone who just got screwed out of money , lol ! Just remember , you can't please everyone , but if you're pleasing most , you're doing something right ! Most people don't think we're worth what we charge , well , because they know everything and we re just dumb electricians ! I just had to let someone know that skilled labor comes at a cost . We're not painting a wall or hanging blinds . Our work done poorly can cause major problems if not total devastation . It's always the people you're already cutting a break , that are still the ones who have a problem with the bill too ! My break cutting family and friends discount days are over .


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## CraigV (May 12, 2011)

Sounds as if BNI is nothing more than suit-hanger d-bags playing carrot-on-a-stick to get work done cheap.


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## kennydmeek (Sep 12, 2009)

CraigV said:


> Sounds as if BNI is nothing more than suit-hanger d-bags playing carrot-on-a-stick to get work done cheap.


I did the BNI thing when I did a stint as a Realtor. There's always a bunch of network marketers(your Arbonne, Usana, Mary Kay types) Then there are plenty of other legitimate businesses. The thing is it's very easy to get on the phone and start your own networking group that accomplishes the same thing once a week without paying the dues and having all the rigidity of having to get a sub and all that. BNI is good in that they teach you things like the art of the "elevator speech" and whatnot, but it's not hard to watch other people do it for a few weeks and get the hang of it without spending the money.

...and the idea isn't to work for your BNI buddies, It's to get them to refer you. That's just not always convenient..yet is expected on a weekly basis.


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

georgep2 said:


> I received the following e-mail from a customer that I have done work for 3 times in the past. The last of which was a generator transfer panel about a month and a half ago. I gave a price up front and they were fine with it, but have since changed their mind.
> 
> I am trying to move away from speaking my mind because I don't think it helps. The last thing I need is bad reviews.
> 
> ...


I'm generally too nice for my own good to the point I get screwed over ! Then of course I blow a gasket , which isn't good either ! If you can be indifferent and not care what one customer or anyone else thinks , that's half the battle ! People confuse kindness , for weakness and that's a big mistake !


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## kennydmeek (Sep 12, 2009)

drumnut08 said:


> I'm generally too nice for my own good to the point I get screwed over ! Then of course I blow a gasket , which isn't good either ! If you can be indifferent and not care what one customer or anyone else thinks , that's half the battle ! People confuse kindness , for weakness and that's a big mistake !


It's taken me a long time as well, but if you know your numbers you can generally turn it around. That's why it's critical to do a spreadsheet and know exactly what your expenses are vs your billable hours in a year. I know it's been said a bunch, but Ellen Rohr is the best place to start...or go to www.electricalflatrate.com and do the cost calculator. Once you know your numbers it becomes clearer in your own mind why you have to charge what you do. I've actually grown to where the more objections I get the more adamant I am...It feels like a good place to be.

www.barebonesbiz.com


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## Paul S. (Sep 8, 2012)

B4T said:


> There is nothing you can say to put out the fire..
> 
> Best reply would be..
> 
> ...


Now that's a good answer. - Customers ought to be aware that there are costs involved with procuring, warranties, etc. - I recently had a customer complain because of what I charged him for parts. However, I told him I use an industry standard pricing book as a guide for my markups, (Trade Service), and then I let him know that I didn't charge him the full markup either.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Paul S. said:


> Now that's a good answer. - Customers ought to be aware that there are costs involved with procuring, warranties, etc. - I recently had a customer complain because of what I charged him for parts. However, I told him I use an industry standard pricing book as a guide for my markups, (Trade Service), and then I let him know that I didn't charge him the full markup either.


Who are you talking to, he cannot hear you ........


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## FF301 (Jan 12, 2014)

Who opened an old post ( from 2013)


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Paul S. said:


> Now that's a good answer. - Customers ought to be aware that there are costs involved with procuring, warranties, etc. - I recently had a customer complain because of what I charged him for parts. However, I told him I use an industry standard pricing book as a guide for my markups, (Trade Service), and then I let him know that I didn't charge him the full markup either.


He passed away.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

For the noobs...

Cops and lawyers are ABOVE the law -- hence lawless.

Priests and nuns believe themselves to be above and outside the lucre economy... and are often enough officially broke -- per IRS standards. They are so officially broke they don't even file income taxes.

They feel you should be as sainted as they.

Casinos and brothels pay the best.

Next come the Fortune 400.

All supply either essentials -- or addictions. 

The worst of the worst: female attorneys. 

Most became attorneys to fight both 'the man' and all husbands and heels.

One notch away: property management types. Pinning you to the floor is their business.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

I had a post written out and then I noticed it was an old thread. I looked back and most of my advice was word for word :laughing:

I did come up with an addition to put the ownership back on them.



_I understand that everyone wants to find the least expensive option for their purchase and it has never been easier for consumers to shop competitively. 

When you got quotes from other contractors, I'm am certain that you considered all the options and decided that was your best choice.

_


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## zac (May 11, 2009)

Fishingeveryday said:


> I had the same sort of situation with BNI.
> 
> Did work for a lawyer and gave him an amazing deal on work. Installed 8 pot lights in finished basement, repaired faulty GFI's in his back yard, installed GFI breakers on two of his circuits all for 1500 tax in.
> 
> ...


I know this is an old thread but anyways.
i was in BNI for a time. I had a good run and it was worth it in the long run. However I could not keep their attendance requirements! Also it seams to me they had many overlapping trades. I would have to hold myself back when the handyman would give his presentation on "honey do lists", Like hanging fans, adding can lights etc... Guess who the members are going to call for the gravy work?:no:


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## Paul S. (Sep 8, 2012)

macmikeman said:


> Who are you talking to, he cannot hear you ........


Ahhh, I see now. - I was just browsing and I thought this was an interesting topic. Dealing with customers can be tricky and I enjoy hearing from others... even if they are not still with us.


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

Paul S. said:


> Dealing with customers can be tricky and I enjoy hearing from others... even if they are not still with us.


Yogi Berra isn't with us anymore either, but you wouldn't think so from this. :laughing::jester:


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## TheElectriciansWife (Oct 28, 2015)

If the customer had an issue she should of suppplied her own materials The cost of materials and labor isnt cheap . would you have let her buy the materials instead of having you bring them ?


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

I wonder if B4T and Black Dog (aka Harry) are sitting together and laughing at us. 

I sure miss those guys.


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## mitch65 (Mar 26, 2015)

That's the crappy thing about these big box DIY stores, with their buying power, they can buy stuff cheap enough to sell it for less than some electrical wholesalers do.


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## Eyetalian (Sep 17, 2013)

georgep2 said:


> I received the following e-mail from a customer that I have done work for 3 times in the past. The last of which was a generator transfer panel about a month and a half ago. I gave a price up front and they were fine with it, but have since changed their mind. I am trying to move away from speaking my mind because I don't think it helps. The last thing I need is bad reviews. How can I word a reply that is least likely to have the customer bad mouth me or go around the internet leaving bad reviews? "Dear George, Last month you installed a generator panel for us for the price of $899.99. Since then my husband and I have found the kit that you installed being sold at Home Depot for under $300. I understand that it costs money to run a business, but making $600 for a few hours work is on the verge of price gouging. Please get back to us as soon as possible." I don't know if they are looking for a refund of some money or what. I do know that I will never work for them again, but I want to remain diplomatic since they have the power to hurt my business. I think the good reviews I have received have helped me and I don't want to ruin that.


People suck sometimes, I'd offer them a $100 credit towards their next job and wish them a happy Hanukkah


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

*nudder one....*

we need to maintain a polite and professional game face fellas, even if we do get these >>>>




> Hi! I need a home backup generator and I have no clue how to connect one to the house so that if the electric power goes out, the backup generator will go on.
> 
> If you can help me out with this, please let me know your lowest price to solve my problem, preferably under $500.
> 
> ...


~CS~


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Provides some laughs at Miller time...


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## Eyetalian (Sep 17, 2013)

chicken steve said:


> we need to maintain a polite and professional game face fellas, even if we do get these >>>> ~CS~


Oh, I see you got my mother-in laws email... Lol


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## Huntxtrm (Apr 3, 2012)

Sounds like they might be the gougers? Too, me anyway. That sounds way cheap for a Panel install.


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## the-apprentice (Jun 11, 2012)

24 big guy said:


> I was a part of a networking group called BNI and i did some work for one of the memebers. 1st mistake didnt give an upfront price 2nd mistake thinking there wouldnt be an issue with price seeing as im dealing with another business owner. OK HERE WE GO
> 
> Invoice sent June 2012??
> 
> ...


my first boss was a member of bni, what a bunch of winners


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## WannabeTesla (Feb 24, 2020)

Ha. I've been "liking" comments here, thinking it was a current topic. Good stuff though...


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## Kevin (Feb 14, 2017)

WannabeTesla said:


> Ha. I've been "liking" comments here, thinking it was a current topic. Good stuff though...


Like to your hearts content. I'm closing this thread though.


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