# ice in conduit



## waco (Dec 10, 2007)

Spring.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

I know this may sound a little nutty, but can you overload some of the conductors in the pipe? Let's say the lights are wired with #10. If you could put the #10 on a 50 A breaker and put a large load on it, then the wire would heat up and melt the ice.

Then again, you may have 100 ft. of ice.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Contact a sewer-rooter company.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

How do you know it's ice? "Under driveway" suggests to me a crushed conduit. I am not saying your are wrong, but I would make sure it is ice before doing anything.


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## TheRick (Apr 13, 2008)

480sparky said:


> Contact a sewer-rooter company.


We have gone this route before...they force steam down the pipe, and then blow out the water after all the ice melts. We have done it with RMC though, not sure how the PVC will like the heat?

Good Luck!


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

TheRick said:


> We have gone this route before...they force steam down the pipe, and then blow out the water after all the ice melts. We have done it with RMC though, not sure how the PVC will like the heat?
> 
> Good Luck!


I've had them auger it out.


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## chenley (Feb 20, 2007)

480sparky said:


> Contact a sewer-rooter company.


Sounds to me as if they have conductors in the pipe they want to salvage.

"That conduit has some wires in it now that I thought we would be able to use for pull wires."


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

chenley said:


> Sounds to me as if they have conductors in the pipe they want to salvage.
> 
> "That conduit has some wires in it now that I thought we would be able to use for pull wires."


Sounds like they'd get trashed anyway, then. I missed that part. I doubt a sewer-rooter outfit would want to auger out a mess of copper.....


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## waco (Dec 10, 2007)

Probably worth a try to see if you can send vacuum cleaner discharge air into the pipe. I figure the ice won't be 100 percent or else it would break the conduit and any opening will allow that air to get through.

I have used warm antifreeze on empty conduit and I know people who used it on conduit with wires. They say it didn't hurt anything, but I don't know.


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## gilbequick (Oct 6, 2007)

Why don't you just run hot water in the pipe? Run a hose from a sink in the hotel. Let it sit for a little bit and let it do it's job. When the ice is melted you could just suck and blow as much water out as possible and then pull some rags that fill the conduit snugly through the conduit to get the rest of the water out. This is of course, if you're positive it's ice in the conduit not concrete or a caved in pipe somewhere.


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## wallyworld (Dec 7, 2008)

Whats the length of the run? I've used small diameter tubing with hot water and with steam. Both worked but if its a long blockage You'll have some time in it. Can you get a snake in from either end? If so can you measure how big the blockage is? I've only done it in 3/4 rigid, 2 pvc seems like a large area to clear


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

*







*
*"You say you have mice on your end-table?*
*Well, Red, that's easy **to take care of. A couple*
*sticks **of dynamite, a blasting cap, and*
*KABOOM!*"​


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## te12co2w (Jun 3, 2007)

Thanks for all the replies. We did get ice on the end of the fish tape when we tried to push it. We also thought about having someone steam it out. That might happen yet. I wouldn't feel good about reusing the existing wires if that happens, but we might try it yet. No one steaming around here. They would have to come from at least 40 miles away or possibly 100 miles.
We also might try the warm antifreeze trick mentioned. I also don't know what that might do to a pvc pipe or wire insulation for that matter.
The existing wires are #10 thhn. I wonder if we could leave an overload on a pair of wires long enough to melt a hole through the ice and still not have it burn on the breaker terminals. I would not feel comfortable about leaving something like that to work overnight, and it might (or might not) take all night or even longer.
It's about 240'. Blocked 35-40' from the outside end. Much farther from the mdp. We had a 100' tape in there and it was still going. Haven't pushed the long tape in yet to see how far out the problem is. I'm afraid I'll find out I have 20' of ice or something. Then it really will be a springtime job. At least it is not a sewer pipe we are trying to open. That could be ugly.


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## BryanMD (Dec 31, 2007)

gilbequick said:


> When the ice is melted you could just suck and blow as much water out as possible



We're going from suck to blow!


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## te12co2w (Jun 3, 2007)

*wallyworld*

Did you make up your own hot water/steamer? Or did you hire someone to do that? You mention small diameter tubing. That leads me to believe you made something just for this. If you did make it, how did you make the steam? Electrically? gas fired boiler?


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## John (Jan 22, 2007)

You could try and melt the ice by connecting a welder to the wires. I have seen frozen copper water pipes thawed out using a welder. The best way would find a stick welder and monitor the amperage of the wires with a clamp on amp meter. Disconnect the wires at both ends and start with 30 amps and gradually increase the amperage until the wires start to get warm. Might work.:thumbsup:


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## wallyworld (Dec 7, 2008)

te12co2w said:


> Did you make up your own hot water/steamer? Or did you hire someone to do that? You mention small diameter tubing. That leads me to believe you made something just for this. If you did make it, how did you make the steam? Electrically? gas fired boiler?


I used a wall paper steamer, didn't tell them I was using it to thaw conduits:no:. I'm in Maine and run into frozen pipes on occasion, it generally sucks. If you have a large distance frozen, I'd wait unless someone has deep pockets


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

We once used rock salt in a frozen 4"pvc 90. For fiber cable.the cable supplier said "min temp to pull,55 " Customer said get it in. It still works after 25 years.We never cleaned the salt out.


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## gilbequick (Oct 6, 2007)

You can get an electric steamer from many retail stores relatively cheaply.
From small: http://www.amazon.com/SteamFast-SF-...2?ie=UTF8&s=home-garden&qid=1229649432&sr=1-2
To bigger water capacity: http://www.amazon.com/McCulloch-MC-...?ie=UTF8&s=home-garden&qid=1229649274&sr=1-20


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## Louieb (Mar 19, 2007)

Ive used my gasoline powered pressure washer I think its 2200 psi to blow holes under cement walkways,maybe running hot water thru it would help.Be careful with steam the burn is nasty!Merry Christmas to all and thanks for the info you share!


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## MNservicetech (Jun 7, 2008)

John is correct. Use an arc welder. Short the #10's on the outdoor side and clamp the arc welders leads to the #10's inside. I'd say you could safely put 35 amps on each #10 wire, if you can parallel a set then you could get 70 amps to thaw it faster. Use a clamp on style ammeter to check the current on the #10's. It may take overnight to thaw it out. Make sure the arc welder is rated for a 100% duty cycle at the current you set it at.


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## bradmaggard (Jan 1, 2009)

is there a way to use inductive heat, using a couple of wires of the same phase only?


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## MNservicetech (Jun 7, 2008)

bradmaggard said:


> is there a way to use inductive heat, using a couple of wires of the same phase only?


I don't understand what you mean. If you are talking about why we as electricians do not group paralleled service conductors of the same phase in the same pipe, then no, that would not work. His underground run is in PVC. Besides, even if the raceway was metallic it would take a lot more power to heat the conduit through induction verses just clamping the welder to the pipe itself and running a welding cable to the other end to complete the circuit.


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## bradmaggard (Jan 1, 2009)

right, i was thinking rigid, which I had read in one of the other posts.


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## ACB (Oct 21, 2008)

hot water pressure washer, if you can rent one, use a large size tip to reduce presure, instal tip directly on the hose and push hose down pipe.turn it on. If you cannot find a tip large enough to lower pressure, use a zero degree tip and drill it out with a 1/16 to 5/64 depending on the size of the pressure washer you want to reduce the running presure to 700 to 800 psi, the boiler unit should still fire (depending on the unit) and what it does not melt it will erode quickly, providing you keep moving it around you should not damage the pipe, you can also keep the temp down around 150.

btw this is also a good way to get stuck mud and crud out of pipe including loose concrete as there are rotery sewer tips available (which can be used on plastic sewer pipe)


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## piette (Feb 7, 2008)

Shove a garden hose in the end closest to the ice blockage and connect it to the hot water heater of the hotel on the other end. You might need a few hundred feet of hose, but if you do it right, it will melt it very quickly. You just have to keep the water hot enough as it runs outside to get to the end of the pipe. I would consider cranking up the water hearter to a scorching setting and then let the hose run. When the pipe is unblocked, toss some rock salt down in each end, then if water gets in there it will carry the salt with it and prevent freezing again.

Just remember to turn the water heater back down.

Jeff


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## Mountain Electrician (Jan 22, 2007)

piette said:


> Shove a garden hose in the end closest to the ice blockage and connect it to the hot water heater of the hotel on the other end. You might need a few hundred feet of hose, but if you do it right, it will melt it very quickly. You just have to keep the water hot enough as it runs outside to get to the end of the pipe. I would consider cranking up the water hearter to a scorching setting and then let the hose run. When the pipe is unblocked, toss some rock salt down in each end, then if water gets in there it will carry the salt with it and prevent freezing again.
> 
> Just remember to turn the water heater back down.
> 
> Jeff


Better make sure you use a high temp hose or someone will be seriously hurt.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

You still don't *KNOW* that it's ice.


How many wires are existing?

I'd run a fish in from both ends and use a wire finder to locate and determine the route, depth and area of blockage. Mark and measue *exactly* how far you are in on both ends for future reference. If it is ice, there will be at least 10'. 2" pipe wouldn't likely bend in such a manner to trap only a foot of water.


If it *is* ice I'd try loading up the parking lot circuits. If there are two circuits in there, put everything on one, check amps and let it run 24/7.

Hot water in one end and a vacuum on the other (if you can access the conduit ends) *may* make things worse by adding more water/ice. Then you would certainly have to wait for spring.

Try compressed air to see if there is any getting thru. If so, and if it is ice, the hot water/vacuum combo should work....if you can access the conduit ends safely. 

Warning: If the compressed air is blocked it will build up pressure and spray back in your face. Not good @ 13 below or in a hot panel.


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## MNservicetech (Jun 7, 2008)

te12co2w,

What did you end up doing, and did it work?


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## Megawatts (Jan 12, 2009)

I had a promblem with the underground service. I used a heat gun and let it on all night. the ice was gone in a day. Took the rope with a rag on it and pulled the water out. It didn't hurt the pipe.


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## user8640521 (Jan 17, 2009)

gilbequick said:


> Why don't you just run hot water in the pipe? Run a hose from a sink in the hotel. Let it sit for a little bit and let it do it's job. When the ice is melted you could just suck and blow as much water out as possible and then pull some rags that fill the conduit snugly through the conduit to get the rest of the water out. This is of course, if you're positive it's ice in the conduit not concrete or a caved in pipe somewhere.


i've had ideas like that... it's a lot like putting out a fire with gasoline....:no:

i've tried melting the doors of my work van open with hot water from
the water heater.... works fine..... then you get in and drive 5 miles
and find that you are now frozen inside your work van. water is not your
friend here...

if the pipe isn't below the frost line, the whole things frozen solid.
wait for spring.... otherwise, the ice is just at each end, and a
heat shrink gun will blow hot air down there enough to melt it....

heat shrink gun is a better choice than a hair dryer. lower volume
air, higher temperature.... when it gets melty, use a wet/dry shop
vac with some 1/2" smurf tube to suck the water out.... then pour some
alcohol in there as antifreeze so you can pull wire... auto antifreeze
may have stuff in it that can hurt wire insulation over time, alcohol
should be fine.


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## te12co2w (Jun 3, 2007)

Good day to all;
Thanks for all the great replies. The hotel manager decided that they didn't have a budget big enough for any winter time fixes. They are going to wait till spring and let nature take care of it. We will get rid of the water at that time and hope that the conduit hasn't froze, expanded, broke, and collapsed. I especially like the ideas from you frozen country guys. Jim


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

FulThrotl said:


> i've had ideas like that... it's a lot like putting out a fire with gasoline....:no:
> 
> i've tried melting the doors of my work van open with hot water from
> the water heater.... works fine..... then you get in and drive 5 miles
> ...


I LMAO at that one.... :laughing:


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## pudge565 (Dec 8, 2007)

I just read this in Electrical Contractor. If you are going to replace the wires just dump in some marine grade antifreeze and let it set for a couple of days. If you do this don't forget to take it back out and clean the conduit with hot water to get any residue out.


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