# fold over vs cuts



## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

No doubt it works, but it sounds like a pain in the ass. Can you get fast at it?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

So how many hours does it take to string 8 or 10 receptacles together with one great big, long, drug-out chunk of NM?

And what is _breal_?


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

480sparky said:


> So how many hours does it take to string 8 or 10 receptacles together with one great big, long, drug-out chunk of NM?
> 
> And what is _breal_?


I think he meant break.


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> No doubt it works, but it sounds like a pain in the ass. Can you get fast at it?


I agree, this sounds like it could be a big pain.



> and technically only adds up as 3 conductors as box fill w/ two 2 wires.


If you leave 12" or more of looped or coiled wire in the box you will still have to count each wire as 2 wires.

See 314.16(B)(1) 2008 NEC.

Chris


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

ShockDoc, are you saying that you squeeze the romex flat and then insert the loop thru one opening in the box?


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

RIVETER said:


> ShockDoc, are you saying that you squeeze the romex flat and then insert the loop thru one opening in the box?


yes, an average circuit takes an hour or less to rough depending on the floor, if all the holes are drilled in line ,on a angles through floor joist , pulling the string goes easy. Of course i find break points such as fixture boxes and ganged boxes but for a duplex receptacle or single pole switch I find I save myself alot of wirenuts and ground crimps. I'm always looking to make the job more efficient and this method leaves less waste at my points.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Shockdoc said:


> yes, an average circuit takes an hour or less to rough depending on the floor, if all the holes are drilled in line ,on a angles through floor joist , pulling the string goes easy. Of course i find break points such as fixture boxes and ganged boxes but for a duplex receptacle or single pole switch I find I save myself alot of wirenuts and ground crimps. I'm always looking to make the job more efficient and this method leaves less waste at my points.


If it works, do it. I did have an inspector make me rework all of the outlet boxes because two, or more cables were in one entry hole. He said "Not approved for the purpose". It did not matter to me...it was a T&M job.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

MDShunk said:


> No doubt it works, but it sounds like a pain in the ass. Can you get fast at it?


Once one gets the feel of it it goes real fast, I can rough a two story 4 bdrm home in 3 days . The ease and speed is all determined by the route and the drill skill. 1 st floors are the easiest since there is minimum drilling and cables are mostly attached to the sill plate or header. Second floor has the cables drilled on angles between points on the 1st floor. I drill all my plates, then connect them from underneath, then spin out and loop the circuit. push the fold overs up to through the floor. Walk around and enter them into their boxes. To make it easy, I break the wire at cieling boxes, the HR box, anywhere that might make my life easier. This is just a idea to help cut down on waste, it works for me.


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## oldschool (Aug 2, 2008)

Shockdoc said:


> Once one gets the feel of it it goes real fast, I can rough a two story 4 bdrm home in 3 days . The ease and speed is all determined by the route and the drill skill. 1 st floors are the easiest since there is minimum drilling and cables are mostly attached to the sill plate or header. Second floor has the cables drilled on angles between points on the 1st floor. I drill all my plates, then connect them from underneath, then spin out and loop the circuit. push the fold overs up to through the floor. Walk around and enter them into their boxes. To make it easy, I break the wire at cieling boxes, the HR box, anywhere that might make my life easier. This is just a idea to help cut down on waste, it works for me.


drill all my plates,,,, spin out and loop the circuit,,,,drilled on angles

what the? i dont understand any of this


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

oldschool said:


> drill all my plates,,,, spin out and loop the circuit,,,,drilled on angles
> 
> what the? i dont understand any of this


If you're from the Pocono's I can understand your lack of understanding.....


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

Shockdoc said:


> If you're from the Pocono's I can understand your lack of understanding.....


Where did it say he is from the Pocono's? Are you just one of them dumb New yorkers who thinks that all of PA is the Pocono's?

FWIW 90% of the population in the Pocono's these days are recent transplants from NY,the locals are leaving in droves.

Back to your post,that seems like a real pita and I think it is way too time consuming,plus it would make troubleshooting a nightmare.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

robnj772 said:


> Where did it say he is from the Pocono's? Are you just one of them dumb New yorkers who thinks that all of PA is the Pocono's?
> 
> FWIW 90% of the population in the Pocono's these days are recent transplants from NY,the locals are leaving in droves.
> 
> Back to your post,that seems like a real pita and I think it is way too time consuming,plus it would make troubleshooting a nightmare.


Bush destroyed our nation, Obama is just furthering its demise. I'm one who moved back to NY. Anyway, I don't feed thru my devices, that method works for me in saving time pigtailing. I never had to troubleshoot my own work....


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

This method of roping a house is ridiculous. I've seen it done before and there's no way it's faster, in fact I'm sure it would take considerably longer. Okay, you save a bit on NM and you don't have to use wirenuts, big deal. Although I can't cite code violation, I'm sure many inspectors would frown for one reason or another. And installing devices in this manner is just weird.


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

Shockdoc said:


> Bush destroyed our nation, Obama is just furthering its demise. I'm one who moved back to NY. Anyway, I don't feed thru my devices, that method works for me in saving time pigtailing. I never had to troubleshoot my own work....


Whatever time you may think your saving pig tailing your losing elsewhere 

The only wire that would need to be pigtailed would be the ground anyway.

If you had any experience troubleshooting you would have known what I meant by my statement. For example if a breaker where to trip your couldn't just go disconnect an outlet and see if the problem was up stream or downstream to the device you removed.

But anyway the entire things seems a$$ine to me

And for the record Jimmy Carter was the demise of our country.


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## KayJay (Jan 20, 2008)

This method would be a violation of 110.3* with anything other than a 1-gang nonmetallic box smaller than 2-1/4” X 4”. 

Here is a tidbit from the '09 UL Whitebook, but this has also been in previous editions for many years now. The wording is the same for metallic outlet boxes.

NONMETALLIC OUTLET BOXES (QCMZ)
GENERAL

CLAMPS
Boxes may or may not be provided with clamps. When clamps are provided, the carton is marked to indicate the type of wiring system or combination of systems for which they have been tested. The clamps are marked with the following letters or combinations thereof to indicate that they are suitable for use with nonmetallic sheathed cable ‘‘N’’ or flexible tubing (loom) ‘‘T.’’ Clamps suitable for nonmetallic sheathed cable are also suitable for multiconductor underground feeder and branch circuit cable where used in dry locations unless the box or smallest unit carton is marked ‘‘Nonmetallic Sheathed Cable Only.’’ Clamps have been tested for securing only one cable per clamp, except multiple section clamps are considered suitable for securing one cable under each section of the clamp, each cable entering a separate knockout.
Boxes intended for use with nonmetallic sheathed cable or open wiring
are suitable for use with cable or wire rated 90°C or less, unless marked for a higher rated wire in degrees centigrade.

SINGLE-GANG BOX
A box nominally 2-1/4 by 4 in. or smaller is intended for one or more
nonmetallic sheathed cables to enter through a single or multiple stage knockout opening.*


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

robnj772 said:


> Where did it say he is from the Pocono's? Are you just one of them dumb New yorkers who thinks that all of PA is the Pocono's?
> 
> FWIW 90% of the population in the Pocono's these days are recent transplants from NY,the locals are leaving in droves.


True, you also got Centrailia... :whistling2:





 


> Back to your post,that seems like a real pita and I think it is way too time consuming, plus it would make troubleshooting a nightmare.


Back when I got into the trade, one thing I noticed different between shops was that the lower waged smash-and-grabbers drilled out every stud and ran the NM at chest height through all the walls, whereas shops that had higher labor costs run from the attic down... up, over, and down, up, over, and down, etc...


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## electro916 (Jan 16, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> True, you also got Centrailia... :whistling2:


Centralia! I live about 5 miles from there. I should go take some updated pictures today.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

robnj772 said:


> Whatever time you may think your saving pig tailing your losing elsewhere
> 
> The only wire that would need to be pigtailed would be the ground anyway.
> 
> ...


I do high end work, for $50 a receptacle the consumer expects a decora device, pigtailed and level. No circuits on any of my jobs ever get interrupted by the replacement of a device. And for troubleshooting purposes, a pair or dikes could cut the wire for troubleshooting. Like I said, I haven't had to troubleshoot my workmanship, I don't know about you. For $20 an outlet I'm sure I can pigtail the ground and backstab the device.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

electro916 said:


> Centralia! I live about 5 miles from there. I should go take some updated pictures today.


No CHIT! I want to plan a bike run through there this summer, is it safe to explore? That and some abandoned railroads.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

Shockdoc said:


> ...


First you say this in the OP:

_ I found that folding the romex, skinning the jacket 8 " and skinning the loops on the conductors saves alot of money by avoiding waste, leaves out the possiblity for a bad connection at an outlet since there is no breal in the conductor and technically only adds up as 3 conductors as box fill w/ two 2 wires._
Then you say this:

_I do high end work, for $50 a receptacle the consumer expects a decora device, pigtailed and level. No circuits on any of my jobs ever get interrupted by the replacement of a device_


You've got me a little confused. How exactly do you rope a house?
:blink:


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## electro916 (Jan 16, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> No CHIT! I want to plan a bike run through there this summer, is it safe to explore? That and some abandoned railroads.



Yea, you can explore all you want and even got on the abandoned section of Rt. 61 and in certain sections feel the heat off of the vent pipes.

There is also quite a few abandoned bridges from the old trolley system. The one that is easy to get to still has the conductors mounted to the roof of the overpass for the cars to get power while going under the overpass.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Rudeboy said:


> ............You've got me a little confused. How exactly do you rope a house?
> :blink:


 
I'd say using a labor-intensive method.


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

Shockdoc said:


> I do high end work, for $50 a receptacle the consumer expects a decora device, pigtailed and level. No circuits on any of my jobs ever get interrupted by the replacement of a device. And for troubleshooting purposes, a pair or dikes could cut the wire for troubleshooting. Like I said, I haven't had to troubleshoot my workmanship, I don't know about you. For $20 an outlet I'm sure I can pigtail the ground and backstab the device.


 

I highly doubt your customers care if it is pigtailed or not.

There are 2 screws on each side of an outlet. There is no need to pigtail anything but the ground.

I :laughing: at your assumption that I do hack work because I question your method. If I was wasting as much time as you are doing this totally ridiculous method I would charge more then $50.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

I pig-tail all of it, hot, neutral and ground. I don't like feeding downstream through receptacles. I don't even use crimp sleeves (I used to use them though), just throw a wirenut and a pigtail on the twisted grounds.


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## Forgery (Mar 6, 2010)

Rudeboy said:


> I pig-tail all of it, hot, neutral and ground. I don't like feeding downstream through receptacles. I don't even use crimp sleeves (I used to use them though), just throw a wirenut and a pigtail on the twisted grounds.


For some reason, the inspectors in NJ require either crimps or green wire nuts for the grounds in residential. I found it odd to fail inspections because of the color of my wirenut


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

robnj772 said:


> I highly doubt your customers care if it is pigtailed or not.
> 
> There are 2 screws on each side of an outlet. There is no need to pigtail anything but the ground.
> 
> I :laughing: at your assumption that I do hack work because I question your method. If I was wasting as much time as you are doing this totally ridiculous method I would charge more then $50.


And feeding thru a device is perfectly legit. The fact is I treat that job as if it were my house. Customer attempts to change a loose out, doesnt correctly tighten terminals, decide to plug a treadmill in downstream ckt, burns house. Pigtailing or looping as in my case prevents that. Seen alot of problems caused by lazy or uncaring electricians throughout the years, have learned from their mistakes. I have troubleshooted plenty of other peoples work so I shouldn't have to worry about unbroken conductors in my outlets.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Rudeboy said:


> First you say this in the OP:
> 
> _ I found that folding the romex, skinning the jacket 8 " and skinning the loops on the conductors saves alot of money by avoiding waste, leaves out the possiblity for a bad connection at an outlet since there is no breal in the conductor and technically only adds up as 3 conductors as box fill w/ two 2 wires._
> Then you say this:
> ...


I wire all my outlet ckts from the floor below, I angle drill between points, normally two rooms at a time. I pull the romex through all the joist holes, pull slack, fold and shove to floor above to point. Lighting, smokes are all ceiling wired. I'm in this business to provide my customer with the best job possible , use material efficiently and mainly, make a profit.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Shockdoc said:


> And feeding thru a device is perfectly legit. The fact is I treat that job as if it were my house. Customer attempts to change a loose out, doesnt correctly tighten terminals, decide to plug a treadmill in downstream ckt, burns house. Pigtailing or looping as in my case prevents that. Seen alot of problems caused by lazy or uncaring electricians throughout the years, have learned from their mistakes. I have troubleshooted plenty of other peoples work so I shouldn't have to worry about unbroken conductors in my outlets.


Same thing could happen if they don't tighten the terminal and plug thier treadmill into that receptacle.

I don't go around trying to prevent 'what if' scenarios done by unqulified people. If I did, I wouldn't even be in the trade.





Shockdoc said:


> ........I'm in this business to provide my customer with the best job possible , use material efficiently and mainly, make a profit.


As long as the customer is willing to pay for 'the best', that's fine. But I'm not gonna pay extra for my mechanic to change out the water pump in my van if he uses a gold-plated torque wrench.


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

Hey, if that works for you- great...But, I think you could make a larger profit and provide the customer with the same service by feeding in and out of the outlets. You said there were probs from other ec's...you wouldn't do that kind of work.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

NolaTigaBait said:


> Hey, if that works for you- great...But, I think you could make a larger profit and provide the customer with the same service by feeding in and out of the outlets. You said there were probs from other ec's...you wouldn't do that kind of work.


If it works for him and he doesn't find it time consuming, let him have at it. I could see any method being productive once you're used to it and you've established a pattern and you've repeated it over and over. He probably can do his loops by eye now.

The problems he's seen from other ECs are probably the result of other ECs hiring cheap unskilled labor.


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