# yet another 110.26 question



## Ima Hack (Aug 31, 2009)

I have a customer that wants to install these in front of the their panelboards. The cross bars are removable with cotter pins.
They would be 6" to 12" in front of the panel.

Violation or not since they are removable?

http://mccuecorp.com/detail/89


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## Jmohl (Apr 26, 2011)

My gut feeling is violation.... The whole purpose of dedicated space is to provide working space when maintaining and to ensure that in an emergency, the panel can be accessed. Even though they are removable, they still could cause delay in access in an emergency


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

I don't see it any different than a door in front of panels. As long as when opened the space is available.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Jmohl said:


> to ensure that in an emergency, the panel can be accessed. Even though they are removable, they still could cause delay in access in an emergency


Panels can be behind locked doors, I do not believe panels require emergency access.


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## Ima Hack (Aug 31, 2009)

Jmohl said:


> My gut feeling is violation.... The whole purpose of dedicated space is to provide working space when maintaining and to ensure that in an emergency, the panel can be accessed. Even though they are removable, they still could cause delay in access in an emergency


 
That was my first thought. The last thing you to do is be friggin around with pins if something is getting lit up.

The salesman told me they been installing them in several retailers back rooms out west already with no AHJ issues.


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

BBQ said:


> I don't see it any different than a door in front of panels. As long as when opened the space is available.


I agree. 

Chris


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

Jmohl said:


> My gut feeling is violation.... The whole purpose of dedicated space is to provide working space when maintaining and to ensure that in an emergency, the panel can be accessed. Even though they are removable, they still could cause delay in access in an emergency


Working space in regards to 110.26 has nothing to do with accessing the panel in an emergency.

Now 240.24(A) does require that overcurrent devices be installed in a readily accessible location which would mean that to access the overcurrent device you could not have to remove an obstacle.

Chris


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

raider1 said:


> I agree.


Cool 

What I wonder is if someone would say 'no storage' but I think the greater good is protecting the equipment.


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## Ima Hack (Aug 31, 2009)

raider1 said:


> Working space in regards to 110.26 has nothing to do with accessing the panel in an emergency.
> 
> Now 240.24(A) remove an obstacle.


That's the key phrase that concerns me. You have to remove an obstacle (actually several) to access the breaker with this in place.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

I don't see that as readily accessible. A door would be readily accessible. I have seen some cotter pins that need a pair of pliers to remove them.


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

IMPORTANT: ADJUST PLACEMENT TO ENSURE
FULL FUNCTIONALITY AND CODE COMPLIANCE
OF THE SYSTEM OR EQUIPMENT
e.g. DOORS OPEN, ACCESS TO VALVES,
CONTROLS, ETC.
*
*

This is listed in the installation instructions. So I say violation if not placed far enough away for the 110.26 compliance.


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## Josue (Apr 25, 2010)

Ima Hack said:


> I have a customer that wants to install these in front of the their panelboards. The cross bars are removable with cotter pins.
> They would be 6" to 12" in front of the panel.
> 
> Violation or not since they are removable?
> ...





BBQ said:


> I don't see it any different than a door in front of panels. As long as when opened the space is available.



BBQ and the code are right.

It is the same if you put a brick wall in front of the panel. You can remove it with a demo hammer. Also the door and those cross bars.

IMO


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Josue said:


> BBQ and the code are right.
> 
> It is the same if you put a brick wall in front of the panel. You can remove it with a demo hammer. Also the door and those cross bars.
> 
> IMO


HUH - Josue-- what are you saying?


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## Josue (Apr 25, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> HUH - Josue-- what are you saying?


Sorry, I don't explain myself correctly sometimes.:laughing:


BBQ said that if there is a door in front of a panel it is illegal although when you open it there is space.
I am just adding another sarcastic comment. If you have a wall in front of a panel it "would be alright" :no: because you can bring it down whenever you need it.


I am saying that having the bars the OP said in front of the panel is illegal (to my eyes and interpretation of the NEC article 110.26.:thumbsup:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Josue said:


> BBQ said that if there is a door in front of a panel it is illegal although when you open it there is space.


No, I said I feel that it is legal.


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## Josue (Apr 25, 2010)

BBQ said:


> No, I said I feel that it is legal.


Ohhhh...............


Then forget my posts.:laughing::laughing:


You were right, there should be a sarcasm font!! :lol:


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

BBQ said:


> No, I said I feel that it is legal.


If I put a washing machine, dryer. refrigerator,etc in front of a panel, is that legal?


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## Josue (Apr 25, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> If I put a washing machine, dryer. refrigerator,etc in front of a panel, is that legal?


I suppose not.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> If I put a washing machine, dryer. refrigerator,etc in front of a panel, is that legal?


No, but that was not the question.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

BBQ said:


> No, but that was not the question.


Well how is putting a barrier that must be removed with cotter pins any different.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

I'd say it's legal. We've built the same type of thing before, it's never been turned down.

Although I use pull pins not cotter pins, makes for easier removal.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Well how is putting a barrier that must be removed with cotter pins any different.


How is having to go get someone with a key to open a door any different?


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

BBQ said:


> How is having to go get someone with a key to open a door any different?


You have a valid point but there are provision in the code for that. So why can't I have a refrigerator in front? Same think-- I can remove the refrig. quicker than you can get a key.

I am not arguing for fun-- I truly don't see why one is okay and the other isn't.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

By the way, these are cotter pins and you need tools to remove










On the other hand these are 'R clips' and I think this is what is being used on the barrier.


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## Ima Hack (Aug 31, 2009)

BBQ said:


> On the other hand these are 'R clips' and I think this is what is being used on the barrier.


Yes, they are R clips. I agree, they are way easier to remove. Sorry  I was using "cotter" a generic term for the pin.

It still dosen't seem like a good idea having multiple pins to remove. I sugested they come up with something with a single pin and one side of the gate on a hinge.

Kind a like a cattle gate.


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

Dennis Alwon said:


> You have a valid point but there are provision in the code for that. So why can't I have a refrigerator in front? Same think-- I can remove the refrig. quicker than you can get a key.
> 
> I am not arguing for fun-- I truly don't see why one is okay and the other isn't.


The big difference that I see is that a refrigerator is not being used to provide protection of the electrical equipment whereas the barrier is designed to add protection of the electrical equipment.

I have see barriers that were hinged on one side and had an R type pin in the other side, IMHO this is no different then having a swinging door in front of the equipment.

Chris


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## screwball (May 22, 2011)

AHJ would have final say! It looks like a back stop for the new guy to put his pallet.


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## All-Circuits (May 31, 2011)

There are plenty of dumbies that don't know what a cotter pin does or how to use them. the required clearence is writen for a reason.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

All-Circuits said:


> There are plenty of dumbies that don't know what a cotter pin does or how to use them. the required clearence is writen for a reason.


If that is true should those people really be working on a panel?

The sections that require protecting panels and equipment from damage are also written for a reason.


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## All-Circuits (May 31, 2011)

I would say this senerio is a violation, you say not. Doesn't really matter what we think does it? The AHJ has the final say. But it is always good to hear our opinions though. I'm sure there will be more interesting topics of discussion to debate. Good post.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

All-Circuits said:


> I would say this senerio is a violation, you say not. Doesn't really matter what we think does it? The AHJ has the final say.


I agree 100%, that is really all that matters in case like this.


Let me ask you this, in my area it is very common to have an electrical closet built that is only 12" deep and about 7' wide. The doors to this closest will be double 36" so with both doors open you have at least 70" clear between the doors. Inside we will mount two or three panels inside. When the doors are closed they are in the 110.26 space, when the doors are open the 110.26 space is clear.

Would you consider this a violation?

Would you consider it unsafe?


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

I was in a large county building a few weeks ago and all the panel covers had locks.. I tried to open a few and they were locked..

No signs anywhere that says call "Joe" for access or key in maintenance dept. room..

I can't see how that is any safer than pulling a "R" clip for access to an electrical panel..


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

B4T said:


> I was in a large county building a few weeks ago and all the panel covers had locks.. I tried to open a few and they were locked..
> 
> No signs anywhere that says call "Joe" for access or key in maintenance dept. room..
> 
> I can't see how that is any safer than pulling a "R" clip for access to an electrical panel..


 In a production plant, I M O, the panels should be locked. Management

and/or supervisory staff should have the keys. 

It could be dangerous if everyone had access to the C.B.s.

I do think each panel should be tagged, so the right people are notified if 

the panel is unlocked.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

For what it is worth the NEC allows panels to be locked or behind locked doors. There is no NEC requirement to post where the keys are.

The NEC does not intend panels to be 'emergency stops'


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## All-Circuits (May 31, 2011)

BBQ said:


> I agree 100%, that is really all that matters in case like this.
> 
> 
> Let me ask you this, in my area it is very common to have an electrical closet built that is only 12" deep and about 7' wide. The doors to this closest will be double 36" so with both doors open you have at least 70" clear between the doors. Inside we will mount two or three panels inside. When the doors are closed they are in the 110.26 space, when the doors are open the 110.26 space is clear.
> ...


no violation because 110.26 say "sufficient access as well as working space, and also says permit ready and safe operation" the term ready is the key. your installation is ready, a barrier attached with cotter pins isn't neccessarily ready.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BBQ said:


> For what it is worth the NEC allows panels to be locked or behind locked doors. There is no NEC requirement to post where the keys are.
> 
> The NEC does not intend panels to be 'emergency stops'


So if it takes you (5) minutes or (30) minutes to remove a temporary safety barrier to perform electrical work on that panel.. there should be no violation..

How an item is intended to be used has to be figured into the big picture..


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

All-Circuits said:


> no violation because 110.26 say "sufficient access as well as working space, and also says permit ready and safe operation" the term ready is the key. your installation is ready, a barrier attached with cotter pins isn't neccessarily ready.


One may need a key from who knows where, the other requires no tools or keys.

Not trying to bust your chops just pointing out a double standard. 

I do agree with you that only the inspector or AHJs opinion will really matter.


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## Ima Hack (Aug 31, 2009)

I still think 240.24(A) not 110.26 comes into play as raider1 pointed out, be it locked or barracaded.


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## 3phasesparky (May 30, 2011)

I think it does more for code compliance then a violation, Because it provides protection from physical damage. Some inspectors here will not pass panels in an open warehouse unless it has ballards or something of the like to protect it. And it does not require any tools to remove it..... But like said its up to AHJ


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## GPB697 (Jun 15, 2011)

It appears that now "removable" is being debated.....


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## GPB697 (Jun 15, 2011)

If you were in a production plant, maintenance would be a radio/phone call away. In a residential / lt. commercial setting poses an entirely different set of circumstances. This is why it would have to be determined by the AHJ....but I think it is an extremely bad practice.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

GPB697 said:


> I think it is an extremely bad practice.


Why is protecting the panels a bad practice?


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Why is protecting the panels a bad practice?


Cause crashing your forklift into an 800 amp panel is damn fun. :lol:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> Cause crashing your forklift into an 800 amp panel is damn fun. :lol:


I put a large fork lift in a small brook, hey it was not my fault the asphalt lot was icy.:jester:

I had a buddy drag it back out with a loader. :thumbsup:


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