# Resi service panel ruff



## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Here's a resi panel ruff I just finished up. It's for a 3 BR, slab home. The pic is from my phone, but you might note a 1" Sealtite exiting the top of the panel. It goes to a junction box in the attic, for future use, because the panel will be almost impossible to fish down to when the home is finished.


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## 3phase (Jan 16, 2007)

The sealtite for future use is a nice touch. Gotta love thinking ahead.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

3phase said:


> The sealtite for future use is a nice touch. Gotta love thinking ahead.


I make it a point to run a future use conduit of some sort if the panel will be in a tough place to fish to. In this instance, the panel would be darned near impossible to fish down to, due to the way the roof was in the area over the panel. I happened to have a scrap of 1" Sealtite and a couple connectors on the truck, leftover from a commercial dishwasher changeout job a few days earlier. I don't normally have boxes with 1" knockouts on the truck, but I did discover a 4-11/16 square x 2-1/8" deep box with 3/4 and 1" ko's. I have no idea where it came from or why it was on the truck. Somebody else might have left it on there. It was my lucky day, in any event. This is the nice details that the low bidder can't (or won't) afford to do. You'll also see just a couple of 14 gauge cables, for lighting. I do all my recs in #12. All but the AFCI circuits are multiwire cables, as you might also note the great number of red conductors. Hard to make out in a cell phone pic.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Nice looking job. 
Planning ahead is the only way.


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## Joe Momma (Jan 23, 2007)

So what's with all the #10's? Is it a big house?

I got my butt saved today(or at least saved some time) from some other guy piping a couple spares from a fire sealed electrical room. Though the empty panel for the tenant finish taking place by another contractor only had 3 pipes stubbed to the hall. I feel sorry for the those electricians.

Oh and like me finding that spare pipe today was not luck, same as you somehow finding that 4 and 11 box MD. I never count saves, or whatever you want to call them, as luck.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Joe Momma said:


> So what's with all the #10's? Is it a big house?


Nope, just a small house. 
10-3 for clothes dryer
10-2 for domestic hot water heater
10-2 for outdoor condensing unit
10-2 for heat pump AHU circuit #1
6-2 for heat pump AHU circuit #2
6-3 for range

That's about it for the 240 circuits. That's about the least you can get away with for an all electric home with heat pump.


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## Joe Momma (Jan 23, 2007)

So is a heat pump aka an air conditioner?

Or as I learned last week it's aka a "chiller"


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Joe Momma said:


> So is a heat pump aka an air conditioner?
> 
> Or as I learned last week it's aka a "chiller"


A heat pump "makes cold air" in the summer, and runs in reverse in the winter to "make warm air". It also has electric backup resistance heat in the AHU.


A chiller is an air conditioner of sorts that chills a cold water loop, opposite of the way that a "boiler" heats a hot water loop. Chillers are normally used to air condition larger buildings, because you can pipe cold water around to multiple coils in multiple AHU's. Saves running so much very large ductwork. Chillers are also used to cool industrial machinery.


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## Joe Momma (Jan 23, 2007)

Some chillers/boilers I've seen have a VERY large duct called the trunk that starts on the roof under the blowers then duct out to all the zones. With the water/refrigerant lines from the boiler and chiller go to each zone or VAV

Though I've also seen them with only steam/chill pipes go to each zone and a heat exchanger just recirculates the air in that zone


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Joe Momma said:


> Some chillers/boilers I've seen have a VERY large duct called the trunk that starts on the roof under the blowers then duct out to all the zones. With the water/refrigerant lines from the boiler and chiller go to each zone or VAV


Well, when you throw VAV boxes into the mix, that changes the rules of thumb a bit, but you get the idea.


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## MO-amps (Feb 14, 2007)

Here is Question I seen your ruff job(by the way that look excellent good stuff there bro.) now tell me this should not your heat-pump be in 10/3,

I know you know your stuff so don't take it wrong way I jus thought all condensor need to be in either 10/3 or 12/3 depending on the nameplate.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

MO-amps said:


> Here is Question I seen your ruff job(by the way that look excellent good stuff there bro.) now tell me this should not your heat-pump be in 10/3,
> 
> I know you know your stuff so don't take it wrong way I jus thought all condensor need to be in either 10/3 or 12/3 depending on the nameplate.


Nope... no neutral needed at the outdoor unit. They're straight 240, always.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Are you sure the panel cover won't overlap that GFCI receptacle?


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## Joe Momma (Jan 23, 2007)

that would be a pretty big panel cover.....
Although we have had to once portaband a half inch from the side of a panel cover.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Here's a couple of hairy panels
that BigRed ran across:


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

And here's a nice one that he did, 
along with an ejector pump control/alarm:


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Magnettica said:


> Are you sure the panel cover won't overlap that GFCI receptacle?


I'm positive that it won't. This job is already trimmed out and paid for. 

You can put two panels side by side, and their covers won't hit in this brand. That is a Cutler-Hammer CH panel. They have surface covers, but they don't have "real" flush covers. They have a combination cover, which is about halfway between a surface cover and a flush cover. That GFCI receptacle is a P&S Trademaster. The Trademaster covers are a smidge larger than normal. They're about what we used to call "midway" plates, but they don't interfear with the panel cover. I don't think there is anything that I can think of that I use normally that I can't mount on each side of the same stud, due to clearance issues. Oh... 1000 watt heat sink type dimmers. That's one thing you can't mount on each side of the same stud, normally.


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## Joe Momma (Jan 23, 2007)

Those panels were a joke right???

Something you threw together in your garage to make us all say "what the heck?"


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Joe Momma said:


> Those panels were a joke right???
> 
> Something you threw together in your garage to make us all say "what the heck?"


Maybe he'll give us the story on those. That first one, with the modern romex looks like maybe an electrician ruffed, left the home runs coiled up, and the HO/GC connected them up jackleg style for construction power and lights. Just a guess. I know it has happened to me.


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## Joe Momma (Jan 23, 2007)

Do they have no idea how dangerous it is leaving the dead front off a live panel like that? Well obviously safety is not their concern.

The nice pictures look really nice. I like that Red angled his staples, it seems a lot of people don't think to do this. Don't know why I like it or how it benefits, just makes for a better looking job.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Joe Momma said:


> I like that Red angled his staples, it seems a lot of people don't think to do this. Don't know why I like it or how it benefits, just makes for a better looking job.


I like that too. I generally do that also when the staples are wider than the cable. Seems like it holds the cable better. He must use wider staples than I do, because I can only angle my staples on 14-2 and 14-3.


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## BIGRED (Jan 22, 2007)

The 1st hairy panel was in a old 3-story dog in Philadelpia, The customer wanted me to finish where a guy left off. I have more pics of the job, it was the worst that I have ever seen. The 2nd was in the suburbs of Philly, this one had the dishwasher circuit plugged in to a GFI in the basement. I use bx staples.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

I do that with my staples all the time. Like Marc said, it keeps the staple as wide as the cable and keeps them straighter. 



> Those panels were a joke right???


Joe, you obviously do not do much residential work behind handymen and hacks! Hell, I've seen that kind of crap work in lots of commercial setting as well. Again, usually the owner or a handyman had his tools on before I got there.


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## Pinhead (Mar 8, 2007)

MDShunk, nice job on that panel. It's been my experience that when you go to the extra trouble to do something nice, like adding that sealtite stub to the attic, that the customer never notices or appreciates what you've done.

Do you stop and inform the customer of what you've done? Do you explain to them that they just received a value added bonus?

I used to install Square D panels and would inform my customers of the added quality they've just received, they mutter "oh, that's nice" or something to that effect.

Doing quality work is it's own reward but I stopped installing Square D when I realized my customers didn't really care.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Pinhead said:


> Do you stop and inform the customer of what you've done? Do you explain to them that they just received a value added bonus?


Not really, because like you say, they won't appreciate it anyhow. That's where a site like this is nice, because you can talk to your peers about something like that, and they appreciate it. 

I've been installing those "future use pipes" because the future electrician may well be me.


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