# Knob & Tube



## rymanh24 (Nov 18, 2019)

Hey guys, in all my years of residential work, I have worked with knob and tube but have never done a whole house rewire with it. What options may I give a customer who has a house wired with knob & tube. 

Do I offer ripping down the house to the studs and wiring the whole house? 

Just running new feeds to junction boxes in various prime locations for branch circuitry?

Just throw in some GFI breakers and call it a day? 

Want to see what options I can provide. Thanks in advance.


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## jw0445 (Oct 9, 2009)

You need to ask the customer these questions as to what his expectations are and his budget while selling yourself.
Maybe you rip out the plaster and lath on the outside walls so they can be insulated?
Maybe you tear off the ceilings due to numerous cracks and install new drywall?
Maybe you cut holes as needed to fish and patch and paint or overlay new drywall?
You need a scope of work and costs based on your input and the customers.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

The first thing you need to do is have the customer pay you for an inspection. You need to find out exactly where the K&T is running. Which lights, outlets, and switches it is running to. This is NOT part of a free estimate. Once the inspection is completed you can give a free estimate based off of the results of the inspection. But the inspection itself is something you charge for.

Then you talk to the customer about how they want to proceed. You could explain that the electrical price could be 1/2 as much if the walls are opened, so if they have cracked plaster walls without insulation it might be best for them to strip the walls. 

Or you can snake in new romex and abandon the old K&T. This is very time consuming and will cost a lot more for the electrical work.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

Like noted above. We do a lot of these, and although our homes are built very differently from yours out east, it always takes more time than you figured. Just remember that. 

Also, if they are still living there in the process, you need to account for furniture and people using the home every night at least. You'll have to make sure you have a good barrier for any dust, and double check the plaster/paint for lead and asbestos. 

On that last point, don't do any work on the rewire without getting results on those tests first.


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## Signal1 (Feb 10, 2016)

One need to run three wires to every outlet location.


One looks like this- I

The other looks like this- I

The most important one looks like this- S


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

K&T rewire is one thing I have done a fair bit over the years due to its prevalence in "New England"  Without exception, it's the some of the dirtiest, tedious and slowest work you can find. I've never seen a house get torn down to the studs simply for a rewire - it's always because the house was too far gone to be remodeled or had fire/water damage. Plan on snaking everything and making a lot of holes.

I agree with the above though - at the very least if the ceilings can come down it will make your job much easier and probably allow the customer to see any problems hidden in the house and do some plumbing upgrades too.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

This may not be the absolute worst work possible in the electrical field, but it's a close second. Like MTW says, dirty, aggravating and slow. I (personally) don't like this stuff. 

You'll have to cut so many holes into walls and ceilings to fish wires. The framing will NOT be like anything you've ever seen before and it's even worse when its hidden behind a wall. 

You'll burn through drill bits too. 

You'll have a hard time estimating a price that comes anywhere close to what the total cost ends up being. T&M is a good option.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

I did a large one a few years ago and every trade on the project took close to 3 times longer than they expected. 

We found out 1 month into the demo that there was no exterior framing....!!!!!...just 2 layers of brick and then the layer of interior plaster. That threw the project off track for several weeks while the carpenters had to frame out everything.


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## ComputerGuy (Apr 13, 2020)

MHElectric said:


> This may not be the absolute worst work possible in the electrical field, but it's a close second. Like MTW says, dirty, aggravating and slow. I (personally) don't like this stuff.
> 
> You'll have to cut so many holes into walls and ceilings to fish wires. The framing will NOT be like anything you've ever seen before and it's even worse when its hidden behind a wall.
> 
> ...



I completely agree with that. Don't even ask me how long it takes to rewire 2 floors of a 3 story mansion with 2000 sqft per floor. Most of the lights on the second floor are still feed by knob and tube since that would require way too much damage to get to and replace. At least most of the fixtures are now relamped with LED bulbs and the lighting on the second floor is split between two K&T circuits.


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## Dan the electricman (Jan 2, 2011)

MHElectric said:


> You'll have a hard time estimating a price that comes anywhere close to what the total cost ends up being. T&M is a good option.


As noted by MHElectric, I'd recommend billing *time and materials*. Replacing knob and tube has too many hidden profit killers to do anything else.


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## LARMGUY (Aug 22, 2010)

There is always the possibility of going with the industrial look using surface conduit.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Dan the electricman said:


> As noted by MHElectric, I'd recommend billing *time and materials*. Replacing knob and tube has too many hidden profit killers to do anything else.


Time and material isn’t a good option for a resi contractor who is charging what they should be.

For this type of crappy work I would be making a minimum of $250 an hour. There’s no way that a customer is going to want to knowingly pay that hourly rate. Nor do I want them watching me having phone conversations and playing on my phone while they are paying me over $4 per minute. 

If you don’t want to do the proper inspection and then give a price beforehand, you can do like a big contractor around here does and charge $500-700 “per point“. A point is any outlet, switch, light, or other item that is found to have knob and tube wiring and needs to be rewired.


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## Superman (Mar 19, 2019)

option one is T&M.Option two away. the customer needs to be made aware that there are to many variables to give a firm price.if they disagree walk away.
Good luck.


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## Dan the electricman (Jan 2, 2011)

HackWork said:


> Time and material isn’t a good option for a resi contractor who is charging what they should be.
> 
> For this type of crappy work I would be making a minimum of $250 an hour. There’s no way that a customer is going to want to knowingly pay that hourly rate. Nor do I want them watching me having phone conversations and playing on my phone while they are paying me over $4 per minute.
> 
> If you don’t want to do the proper inspection and then give a price beforehand, you can do like a big contractor around here does and charge $500-700 “per point“. A point is any outlet, switch, light, or other item that is found to have knob and tube wiring and needs to be rewired.


I understand your ideas, and recommendations. I don't talk, or play, on the phone between 8 and 5, so that's not a concern. Since I'm gonna be earning 5 to 14 days of 8 hours pay, I'm fine with time and materials. I'm not gonna commit to a price beforehand, as I can't inside plaster covered walls, and ceilings. 

If the potential customer doesn't want to pay that way, I understand and move on. :smile:


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

HackWork said:


> Time and material isn’t a good option for a resi contractor who is charging what they should be.
> 
> For this type of crappy work I would be making a minimum of $250 an hour. There’s no way that a customer is going to want to knowingly pay that hourly rate. Nor do I want them watching me having phone conversations and playing on my phone while they are paying me over $4 per minute.
> 
> If you don’t want to do the proper inspection and then give a price beforehand, you can do like a big contractor around here does and charge $500-700 “per point“. A point is any outlet, switch, light, or other item that is found to have knob and tube wiring and needs to be rewired.


I think we're all saying the same thing, just in different words. 

1)These jobs suck - pretty much everyone here agrees on this. 
2)Tons of unknowns and hidden problems you'll have to deal with. 

Here's my 2cents. 
1)A T&M price is safe, and effective way of completing a job of this nature. The customer might be inclined to push for a ballpark, and that's on the contractor if they feel comfortable giving one (personally, I wouldn't), if not then just stick to your numbers and they can take it or leave it. If you pull 8 or 10 HR days, just like you would on normal construction sites, then this can be a lucrative opportunity.
2) I understand your high hourly rate, especially to float a small residential type business, but I can almost assure you that you will make it up in hours on these type of projects. The high rates of small business is designed to float a business that might only do 2-6hr jobs each day. You'll make that and more working several weeks on these projects from 8-5 M-F. 
3) God bless the man who is brave enough to put a solid number on these projects. I know there's guys on this forum that will. My experience is you just can't charge enough to cover all the hidden stuff on K&T rewires. 
4) Personally - I dont know how you guys can do it if they don't at least take down most of the walls and the ceiling! And doing them with the customer still living there??!!!!!


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Knob and tube is very prevalent in my area. I’ve done plenty of these, even as side work well before I went in business. If you spend some time to do a proper inspection (paid for by the homeowner) then there’s no reason why you can’t figure out where the knob and tube is and how you’re going to snake the new wires. If you hit some unexpected framing, you just make some more holes.

The absolute last thing that I want to do is try to make up money by working more hours. Just my opinion.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> Knob and tube is very prevalent in my area.


Is that so?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MTW said:


> Is that so?


:sleeping:


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

HackWork said:


> The absolute last thing that I want to do is try to make up money by working more hours. Just my opinion.


Actually, I think for most companies where the owner pays employees to do the work, this is exactly how they aim to make money.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

Billable hours = $$$$. 

Right?


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> :sleeping:


Bummer.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MHElectric said:


> Actually, I think for most companies where the owner pays employees to do the work, this is exactly how they aim to make money.


By charging less total money for the job?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MHElectric said:


> Billable hours = $$$$.
> 
> Right?


Hiding the amount of your billable hour is always going to equal more money when it comes to residential work like this.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

HackWork said:


> By charging less total money for the job?


For you to make the biz float, you need xxxx amount of dollars each day, right? 

Now, for you to do 2 service calls and 1 jobs each day, you charge large so you can make your daily $$$$ goal. With service work a guy might only work 3-4 hours a day, but he'll ride around for 8hrs. This is why you charge accordingly. Those 4 billable hours better cover the entire day + overhead + profit. 

Now with construction work that same dude will be on a job for 8hrs. These are ALL billable hours. You can adjust your hourly rate to reflect that. 

You can charge a construction rate that will excceed your daily $$$ goal + overhead + profit and it will still be lower than your service rate. Because now you can bill for all 8 hrs.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

HackWork said:


> Hiding the amount of your billable hour is always going to equal more money when it comes to residential work like this.


I disagree in this instance. 

For a $500 job? Yes, absolutely. 

For a $20k-40k job? Completely different scenario.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MHElectric said:


> For you to make the biz float, you need xxxx amount of dollars each day, right?
> 
> Now, for you to do 2 service calls and 1 jobs each day, you charge large so you can make your daily $$$$ goal. With service work a guy might only work 3-4 hours a day, but he'll ride around for 8hrs. This is why you charge accordingly. Those 4 billable hours better cover the entire day + overhead + profit.
> 
> ...


Yes, I understand how that all works.

I also understand that I want to make as much money as possible. Service contractors charge their same service rate for knob and tube rewires. There’s absolutely no reason for me to lower my rate. As I mentioned, the last thing I want to do is charge less money per hour and work more hours to try to make the same thing in the end.

If you did the proper inspection and reconnaissance, why can’t you estimate a knob and tube job?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MHElectric said:


> I disagree in this instance.
> 
> For a $500 job? Yes, absolutely.
> 
> For a $20k-40k job? Completely different scenario.


The size of the job doesn’t matter, it’s going to be extremely hard to find a homeowner who’s going to knowingly pay the hourly rate of a contractor who is charging what he should be.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

HackWork said:


> If you did the proper inspection and reconnaissance, why can’t you estimate a knob and tube job?


I personally would have no idea how to do this accurately. We don't have that many of them around. These old places get bull dozed and the lot gets cleared to build a new McMansion. 

It's not the house everybody wants, it's the location.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

HackWork said:


> The size of the job doesn’t matter, it’s going to be extremely hard to find a homeowner who’s going to knowingly pay the hourly rate of a contractor who is charging what he should be.


Sometimes I think you hang around this place purely for the opportunity to argue with people.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MHElectric said:


> Sometimes I think you hang around this place purely for the opportunity to argue with people.


So it’s OK for you to disagree with me, but not for me to disagree with you?

It’s not like I am posting anything new. I simply agree with what all the other successful electrical contractors do, which is not charging time and material.

But don’t worry, I won’t respond to you at all anymore.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

HackWork said:


> So it’s OK for you to disagree with me, but not for me to disagree with you?
> 
> It’s not like I am posting anything new. I simply agree with what all the other successful electrical contractors do, which is not charging time and material.
> 
> But don’t worry, I won’t respond to you at all anymore.


 Dude...BRUH...This is something my wife would say. LOL.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

Like I said at the beginning of this thread I do a lot of rewires. I never do them T&M, they are all given a fixed price. If you have done enough of them and understand how they built the homes in the area (your a local professional), then there is no reason you can't give a fixed price on them.

You just assume they are all effed up and price accordingly. If you assume everything will go bad, then you'll do just fine. If you assume that everything will go according to plan, then you will be very disappointed. I don't get anywhere near the number of these jobs I bid, but the ones I do get are very very profitable.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

Switched said:


> Like I said at the beginning of this thread I do a lot of rewires. I never do them T&M, they are all given a fixed price. If you have done enough of them and understand how they built the homes in the area (your a local professional), then there is no reason you can't give a fixed price on them.
> 
> You just assume they are all effed up and price accordingly. If you assume everything will go bad, then you'll do just fine. If you assume that everything will go according to plan, then you will be very disappointed. I don't get anywhere near the number of these jobs I bid, but the ones I do get are very very profitable.


This is where experience comes into play and Your a braver man than me. I can't even imagine doing one with people staying in there during the process. 

On a separate note: 
A home owner will look at all the bids to redo these old homes and realize they could literally bulldoze the home and build a new one for almost the same lcost. This seems to be a big trend out here in older neighborhoods. There's a name they call it but I can't remember what it is. 

A bunch of people are fussing with the state about how it's driving up the price of homes in these areas and yada yada. People upset over historical homes and whatever. Builders are raking it in on these opportunities and I don't blame them.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Switched said:


> Like I said at the beginning of this thread I do a lot of rewires. I never do them T&M, they are all given a fixed price. If you have done enough of them and understand how they built the homes in the area (your a local professional), then there is no reason you can't give a fixed price on them.
> 
> You just assume they are all effed up and price accordingly. If you assume everything will go bad, then you'll do just fine. If you assume that everything will go according to plan, then you will be very disappointed. I don't get anywhere near the number of these jobs I bid, but the ones I do get are very very profitable.


One trick that I use when doing the inspection is notching a little piece of plaster next to the box, then send a snake up or down. This will tell you if there is a cat/blockage in the studbay and if you will need to open the wall more. 

The only nice thing about those small metal boxes is that there is a fair bit of space around them that can be chipped away and still covered by the coverplate.

At this point you have a fairly good idea of exactly what will need to be done to get the new cable in there.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

MHElectric said:


> This is where experience comes into play and Your a braver man than me. I can't even imagine doing one with people staying in there during the process.
> 
> On a separate note:
> A home owner will look at all the bids to redo these old homes and realize they could literally bulldoze the home and build a new one for almost the same lcost. This seems to be a big trend out here in older neighborhoods. There's a name they call it but I can't remember what it is.
> ...


Yeah, that isn't the case here in Cali. It is prohibitively expensive to knock it down and rebuild it. Could cost you $40k to $80k for a rewire, a million to knock it down and rebuild it.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Switched said:


> I don't get anywhere near the number of these jobs I bid, but the ones I do get are very very profitable.


That's the key right there. In my area, if you charged the service call rate ($100+ per hour, per electrician) as a basis for your fixed price, you wouldn't get many of these jobs either. Most K&T is in rental property or middle income homes, with a small percentage being in high end houses with very cheap owners. Yes, I have worked in all three types. Unfortunately, most electricians would rather give the work away for a low hourly than price it. I'll never do that now.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

Switched said:


> Yeah, that isn't the case here in Cali. It is prohibitively expensive to knock it down and rebuild it. Could cost you $40k to $80k for a rewire, a million to knock it down and rebuild it.


A million dollars to knock it down, clear the lot and build a new home?!?...:blink:...I know it's Cali but that's insanely excessive! 

I'm not saying that isn't the case, but I will say it's incredibly backwards. Why is this?

They spend $40k for wiring. The plumbers charge $50k for upstairs and downstairs. The 2 story HVAC is at $65k. Now they need to get the walls patched, floors leveled, brick work repaired, a news roof, insulation, ect ect. 

This is course is a remodel scale, not just someone living in there trying to get the "electric fixed".

That same home could be bull dozed, debris hauled off and permits paid around e price of the electric. And then the McMansion builders take over from here. They've got this down to pat. New home, swanky downtown old neighborhood location...this sells big time! 

I don't understand why it would be that different in your area. Even if the prices are different, the concept is the same.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

MTW said:


> That's the key right there. In my area, if you charged the service call rate ($100+ per hour, per electrician) as a basis for your fixed price, you wouldn't get many of these jobs either. Most K&T is in rental property or middle income homes, with a small percentage being in high end houses with very cheap owners. Yes, I have worked in all three types. Unfortunately, most electricians would rather give the work away for a low hourly than price it. I'll never do that now.


Do you put a firm price on these jobs?


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

MHElectric said:


> Do you put a firm price on these jobs?


I don't do them as "side work" but if I did I would price them high, $150 per hour as an hourly rate to bid them.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

MTW said:


> I don't do them as "side work" but if I did I would price them high, $150 per hour as an hourly rate to bid them.


That's not unreasonable. I would've said around $125-135/hr. More if it was 2 guys. 

An 8hr day is a pretty good payout. Depending on the size of the house, could be a several week long job.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

I haven’t done a lot of this but it seems like when you think you’re 80% done, the remaining 20% takes forever.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

MHElectric said:


> A million dollars to knock it down, clear the lot and build a new home?!?...:blink:...I know it's Cali but that's insanely excessive!
> 
> I'm not saying that isn't the case, but I will say it's incredibly backwards. Why is this?
> 
> ...


The permit fees for a new home are massive here, that is where part of the money to fund local schools comes from. Even if you don't knock the home down, if you remodel over a certain percentage, they charge you like your building a new home.

It isn't uncommon for people to remodel 49% of their house, then another 21%, then the remainder. All with three separate projects and three separate permits.

It is utterly stupid. 

People allow install a lot of Dens, 3rd living rooms, etc, and after the job is complete install a closet and get their 3rd or 4th bedroom, as there can be huge permit fees to add a bedroom. There is a whole house shortage, but in all their intelligence they can't figure out how to stop it.

Uh... It's called lower the exorbitant fees, get rid of the unnecessary environmental fees and planning, get rid of Title24, get rid of the massive taxes, and the list goes on. But then who will pay for all the people that don't want to work?


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

Hmm...crazy. 

Imagine that. Rediculous red tape screwing everything up.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Switched said:


> The permit fees for a new home are massive here, that is where part of the money to fund local schools comes from. Even if you don't knock the home down, if you remodel over a certain percentage, they charge you like your building a new home.
> 
> It isn't uncommon for people to remodel 49% of their house, then another 21%, then the remainder. All with three separate projects and three separate permits.
> 
> It is utterly stupid.


Here it's not a percentage, it's a wall. So you will always see the entire house ripped down except for one wall. Then they include that wall in the new house to avoid the massive new house fees. I've seen it a million times, but never thought to take a picture.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

HackWork said:


> Here it's not a percentage, it's a wall. So you will always see the entire house ripped down except for one wall. Then they include that wall in the new house to avoid the massive new house fees. I've seen it a million times, but never thought to take a picture.


That used to be what it was here, then they changed it to a percentage to stop the one wall thing.


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## Dan the electricman (Jan 2, 2011)

MHElectric said:


> A million dollars to knock it down, clear the lot and build a new home?!?...:blink:...I know it's Cali but that's insanely excessive!
> 
> I'm not saying that isn't the case, but I will say it's incredibly backwards. Why is this?
> 
> ...


I suspect Cali is similar to Colorado, where I'm at. Just the "cost of a plot" can be $200K. New homes are $350 to 500K. Lots of people moving here, looking for real estate. Demand has pushed the market to new heights. It's substantially cheaper to remodel, if the home isn't horrible.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

Dan the electricman said:


> I suspect Cali is similar to Colorado, where I'm at. Just the "cost of a plot" can be $200K. New homes are $350 to 500K. Lots of people moving here, looking for real estate. Demand has pushed the market to new heights. It's substantially cheaper to remodel, if the home isn't horrible.


I can understand that things vary from area to area. And we are the same, the real estate (location location location) is what's so costly. Not so much the home. 

We also don't have tons and tons of knob & tube homes still around. There's some, but not like up north. Most companies pass on this work. Often, By the time it really gets down to it, the house has been neglected or vacant for years. 

And at this point, it's usually an investor or SlumLord that is interested in getting things fixed up. 

They're still building new subdivisions like crazy in the surrounding areas. People looking to purchase often like new homes more than something that needs to be fixed up.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

99cents said:


> I haven’t done a lot of this but it seems like when you think you’re 80% done, the remaining 20% takes forever.


I think that's one of the formulations of the 80-20 rule. 

With programming, I think it's even worse, when it's 95% working, you're not even half done.


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## ComputerGuy (Apr 13, 2020)

Yes programming is often like that. I really hate it when I feel like I am very close to done and do e realize I need to write almost as much code as I already have written just to get that last 5% working. Also debugging can be frustrating since you need to find and account for every possible edge case.


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## ComputerGuy (Apr 13, 2020)

splatz said:


> 99cents said:
> 
> 
> > I havenâ€™️t done a lot of this but it seems like when you think youâ€™️re 80% done, the remaining 20% takes forever.
> ...


Yes programming is often like that. I really hate it when I feel like I am very close to done and then I realize I need to write almost as much code as I already have written just to get that last 5% working. Also debugging can be frustrating since you need to find and account for every possible edge case.


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

ComputerGuy said:


> Yes programming is often like that. I really hate it when I feel like I am very close to done and then I realize I need to write almost as much code as I already have written just to get that last 5% working. Also debugging can be frustrating since you need to find and account for every possible edge case.


Like that computer glitch that post same twice?


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

ComputerGuy said:


> Yes programming is often like that. I really hate it when I feel like I am very close to done and do e realize I need to write almost as much code as I already have written just to get that last 5% working. Also debugging can be frustrating since you need to find and account for every possible edge case.


Like that computer glitch that post same twice?:biggrin:


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