# 2" Non-metallic Flex to Subpanel 15' Away



## green4now (Jul 29, 2016)

I have a PVC distribution box about 15 feet away from a master panel w/master breaker. The master panel is going to be set up as a subpanel and a 2,2,2,4 from the distribution box (ultimately coming from a new Master panel) needs to plug into it.

Because there is a crazy amount of conduit and other crap on the walls, I was planning to use 2" non-metallic Flex conduit. I can't see any other way to get conduit to this thing. Two questions:

1 - What is the best connector to tie 2" Flex into a metallic box with a maximum 1.5" knockout?

2 - Does anyone here have experience running more than 6' of non-metallic Flex? Technically, 6' is the limit unless the flexibility is needed and the stuff is secured will. But our inspector doesn't like us very much (former guy failed TWO inspections in a row) so I really need to get this right.

Thanks!


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

green4now said:


> I have a PVC distribution box about 15 feet away from a master panel w/master breaker. The master panel is going to be set up as a subpanel and a 2,2,2,4 from the distribution box (ultimately coming from a new Master panel) needs to plug into it.
> 
> Because there is a crazy amount of conduit and other crap on the walls, I was planning to use 2" non-metallic Flex conduit. I can't see any other way to get conduit to this thing. Two questions:
> 
> ...


Clearly the use requires flexibility so, you have that.
Also, the six foot rule is usually for metallic flex when determine the use of a ground wire.


NO the six foot rule applies when using liquid tight metallic conduit. The metal

spiral inside the conduit can be used as your ground if you use approved

connectors & keep it six feet or less in length.

For non metallic conduit (what you are using) a ground wire is required for any

length conduit from just inches to hunderds of feet.


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## green4now (Jul 29, 2016)

Excellent! And yes, I'll have a 4ga ground wire running the length of the Flex. Follow-up question: I don't have to run in straight lines do I? That's the whole reason for using the Flex. There is no straight line/right angle path that doesn't go over all kinds of pipes and other conduit on the wall. And did you have any insight into 1 - What is the best connector to tie 2" Flex into a metallic box with a maximum 1.5" knockout?


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

green4now said:


> Excellent! And yes, I'll have a 4ga ground wire running the length of the Flex. Follow-up question: I don't have to run in straight lines do I? That's the whole reason for using the Flex. There is no straight line/right angle path that doesn't go over all kinds of pipes and other conduit on the wall. And did you have any insight into 1 - What is the best connector to tie 2" Flex into a metallic box with a maximum 1.5" knockout?


Typical flex connectors have the same pipe thread as the flex size, 2" flex will have 2"male pipe thread. Not sure you will find any different. 2" pipe thread normally requires a 2 9/16" hole. A 1.5" KO will fit 1 1/4" pipe thread. Best of luck.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Methinks the 6' rule is often misinterpreted 

As Suncoast said, EGC max, nothing more

The reason is the spiral , which (if stretched out straight) is 5-6X's interior conductor length


~CS~


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## PlugsAndLights (Jan 19, 2016)

green4now said:


> Excellent! And yes, I'll have a 4ga ground wire running the length of the Flex. Follow-up question: I don't have to run in straight lines do I? That's the whole reason for using the Flex. There is no straight line/right angle path that doesn't go over all kinds of pipes and other conduit on the wall. And did you have any insight into 1 - *What is the best connector to tie 2" Flex into a metallic box with a maximum 1.5" knockout?*


You need 2" flex to accommodate the quantity/size of the wires correct?
If so, I don't see how you'd be allowed to downsize at the panel to go 
through a 1.5" connector. If you need 2", you 2" ALL the way. Am I 
missing something? 
P&L


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

PlugsAndLights said:


> You need 2" flex to accommodate the quantity/size of the wires correct?
> If so, I don't see how you'd be allowed to downsize at the panel to go
> through a 1.5" connector. If you need 2", you 2" ALL the way. Am I
> missing something?
> P&L


What he's missing is a chunk of teck :laughing: .

Git 'er dun.


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## wcord (Jan 23, 2011)

99cents said:


> What he's missing is a chunk of teck :laughing: .
> 
> Git 'er dun.


3c #2 teck90 uses a 1.25 connector. (ST125-470)
problem solved


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

wcord said:


> 3c #2 teck90 uses a 1.25 connector. (ST125-470)
> problem solved


Too much money. Use a flex connector.


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## wcord (Jan 23, 2011)

99cents said:


> Too much money. Use a flex connector.


Can't
Not approved for use with Teck .
Don't know about AB, but the last few years, we fail inspection when you use flex connectors.
However, we have been using Arlington 8415 series dry connectors, and the inspectors have accepted them. Think because the clamping flange is so wide.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

wcord said:


> Can't
> Not approved for use with Teck .
> Don't know about AB, but the last few years, we fail inspection when you use flex connectors.
> However, we have been using Arlington 8415 series dry connectors, and the inspectors have accepted them. Think because the clamping flange is so wide.


Do it here all the time. Just have to peel back the jacket.


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## ~48~ (Jul 24, 2016)

I don't think I've ever seen a panel fed with Carlon. Sealtite, sure. If it's temporary. Flexible PVC is pretty brittle without the metal tube inside though. I'd only use one of those if it's outside. 

In the NW, for indoor panels we'd run aluminum or steel flex all day long. Sometimes have to transition from rigid or EMT if it's longer than a couple feet. If you're feeding a panel, you can't afford to do it cheap. Treat the conduit run like a transformer conduit.

And wth is this teck I keep seeing you all mention?


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

~48~ said:


> I don't think I've ever seen a panel fed with Carlon. Sealtite, sure. If it's temporary. Flexible PVC is pretty brittle without the metal tube inside though. I'd only use one of those if it's outside.
> 
> In the NW, for indoor panels we'd run aluminum or steel flex all day long. Sometimes have to transition from rigid or EMT if it's longer than a couple feet. If you're feeding a panel, you can't afford to do it cheap. Treat the conduit run like a transformer conduit.
> 
> And wth is this teck I keep seeing you all mention?


Tech is a form of jacketed Canadian AC, it's too cold up there to go out without a jacket.


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## PlugsAndLights (Jan 19, 2016)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Tech is a form of jacketed Canadian AC, it's too cold up there to go out without a jacket.


Heavy jacket inside and outside the metal. Teck's used a lot here 
in Canada. By far the most common way to connect hot tubs. Pretty 
common for all outside loads or building to building. 
BTW, I used a piece of the outer sheath and some contact cement to 
put caps on the toes of my work boots. No kidding. 
Here's what it looks like. 
P&L


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

*Watch bends*

Even though it is flex they can nail you for more than 360 degrees of bends, at least in the states.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

just the cowboy said:


> Even though it is flex they can nail you for more than 360 degrees of bends, at least in the states.


Yes, it's considered a raceway so, you have to keep the bends 360 degrees or under unless your job specs call out something different.


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## west shore electric (Sep 30, 2015)

PlugsAndLights said:


> Heavy jacket inside and outside the metal. Teck's used a lot here
> in Canada. By far the most common way to connect hot tubs. Pretty
> common for all outside loads or building to building.
> BTW, I used a piece of the outer sheath and some contact cement to
> ...


No sh!t!!
Why don't we have that yet!? Has it been in use long in Canada?


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## wcord (Jan 23, 2011)

west shore electric said:


> No sh!t!!
> Why don't we have that yet!? Has it been in use long in Canada?


40 years at least


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## wcord (Jan 23, 2011)

cheaper yet is ACWU90


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

PlugsAndLights said:


> Heavy jacket inside and outside the metal. Teck's used a lot here
> in Canada. By far the most common way to connect hot tubs. Pretty
> common for all outside loads or building to building.
> BTW, I used a piece of the outer sheath and some contact cement to
> ...


It would be a favorite of mine if I was up your way.


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

You need to either make another KO for 2" or enlarge the 1.5 to 2".
Surely there is a 2" KO there somewhere?


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

PlugsAndLights said:


> Heavy jacket inside and outside the metal. Teck's used a lot here
> in Canada. By far the most common way to connect hot tubs. Pretty
> common for all outside loads or building to building.
> BTW, I used a piece of the outer sheath and some contact cement to
> ...


Am I correct that it started life as mining industry cable -- took a sip of Molson -- and then went everywhere ?


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## wcord (Jan 23, 2011)

Pictures of a panel and VFD in a sewage pumping booster station ( not a classified area)
The only stuff done with pipe was the security system and 4-20 from the flow meter control
The long panel was fed with 4 single conductor Teck90 c/w fiber plate ( drip shield was not needed, but the panel came with it.And then 2 Teck up to the roof


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## PlugsAndLights (Jan 19, 2016)

Teck is only a little more expensive than the alternatives. The connectors are 
expensive. When used in dry conditions you can sometimes use much cheaper 
connectors. I haven't bought one of these lately so one of the other Canucks 
can jump in and correct me, but I think they go for $10 to $20 depending on 
size. Here's a pic. 
P&L


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## wcord (Jan 23, 2011)

telsa said:


> Am I correct that it started life as mining industry cable -- took a sip of Molson -- and then went everywhere ?


I can't be sure, but I believe Cominco used the stuff way back ( 70s) in their smelter at Kimberly BC.
I used lots of the stuff for Cominco, when I built their Arsenic Extraction plant in Yellowknife ( back in the early 80s) and they made us strip the outer jacket off the cable, once it entered the electrical room. Apparently they had a fire somewhere and it was determined that the out jacket contributed to the blaze. 
Wet, dry, explosion proof, oil resistant, sunlight resistant. Bury it, cable tray it, strap on the surface, or run it in walls like AC90 if you want to

As P&L said, we can use Teck90 all over the place.


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## PlugsAndLights (Jan 19, 2016)

telsa said:


> Am I correct that it started life as mining industry cable -- took a sip of Molson -- and then went everywhere ?


Hadn't heard that, but could be. Worked at tank farm 10 years ago. 
Couldn't begin to guess how many km's of teck were on the trays 
there. 
Interesting, non-electrical, thing I learned there is that's there's only 
one pipe running into Ottawa. One type of fuel is pushed through by 
another type. If it's regular gas followed by high octane the "transition"
fuel goes into the regular tank. If the 2 fuels are dissimilar, say 
regular followed by diesel, the transition goes into a separate tank that
will be later be trucked back to the refinery to be re-refined. That refinery 
is in the Montreal area. 
Your welcome for this irrelevant, useless information! 
P&L


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## wcord (Jan 23, 2011)

Here's a Class 1 Div 1 Teck connector STX-050 ( for 14 or 12/2 Teck)
You pack the inside with a 2 part putty, which seals just like Chico


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## ~48~ (Jul 24, 2016)

Ah
We call that CLX cable. I thought it's under 330 in our NEC though, not 348.

We put in miles and miles of it at Intel. Not we personally, other contracted "contingent workers" at Intel. They ran it for branch circuits and feeders both, in lots of different location types. I hear it's a pain to mess with though.


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## green4now (Jul 29, 2016)

PlugsAndLights said:


> You need 2" flex to accommodate the quantity/size of the wires correct?
> If so, I don't see how you'd be allowed to downsize at the panel to go
> through a 1.5" connector. If you need 2", you 2" ALL the way. Am I
> missing something?
> P&L


 Probably not, but I thought that since the panel is a metal panel, the size requirement might be lesser, allowing for a 1.5". I didn't have any specific reason to think that. I just don't want to drill a hole in the main metal panel if I can avoid it. But it looks like I can't so I'll deal. Do you have any idea what drill bit to use?


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## green4now (Jul 29, 2016)

A Little Short said:


> You need to either make another KO for 2" or enlarge the 1.5 to 2".
> Surely there is a 2" KO there somewhere?


 Nope. Definitely there isn't. And the panel is very small and I only have access to one part - where there's a 1.5" knockout. So I guess my follow-up question is: do you have any recommendations for the type of drill bit I can use to make a 2" hole in a metal subpanel. It's not the new cheap stuff. It's from the 40s.


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

green4now said:


> Nope. Definitely there isn't. And the panel is very small and I only have access to one part - where there's a 1.5" knockout. So I guess my follow-up question is: do you have any recommendations for the type of drill bit I can use to make a 2" hole in a metal subpanel. It's not the new cheap stuff. It's from the 40s.




Have you not made a hole in a metal enclosure yet? There's hole saws and knock out kits and that's about it. Good luck....


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## PlugsAndLights (Jan 19, 2016)

green4now said:


> Probably not, but I thought that since the panel is a metal panel, the size requirement might be lesser, allowing for a 1.5". I didn't have any specific reason to think that. I just don't want to drill a hole in the main metal panel if I can avoid it. But it looks like I can't so I'll deal. Do you have any idea what drill bit to use?


Don't drill any more than you have to to get a the right knockout tool in.
Better yet, don't drill at all if you can use an existing knockout to start 
the tool.
See image.
P&L


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

2 3/8" carbide.


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

This is bordering on diy.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Biscuits said:


> This is bordering on diy.


Two hour job on a bad day.


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## 51360 (Jun 9, 2014)

telsa said:


> Am I correct that it started life as mining industry cable -- took a sip of Molson -- and then went everywhere ?


Yes, you are correct. Teck-Hughes Gold mine in Kirkland Lake Ontario. Back in the 50s.



> Star Teck(®) – Cable Fittings
> The Teck cable fitting’s evolution began in the 1950s when the Teck-Hughes gold mine in Ontario required a special fitting. It was to be installed with a new flexible cable that combined a metal armor and a PVC jacket. Thomas & Betts engineers jumped to the challenge to create a fitting to be used with this new Teck cable. Thus was born the Thomas & Betts Teck connector. Over the years, Thomas & Betts engineers, incorporating feedback from end-users, developed and expanded the product offering. The result is Star Teck(®), a family of high performance fittings that remains the industry’s benchmark for reliable construction and ease of installation.


Borgi


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

green4now said:


> Nope. Definitely there isn't. And the panel is very small and I only have access to one part - where there's a 1.5" knockout. So I guess my follow-up question is: do you have any recommendations for the type of drill bit I can use to make a 2" hole in a metal subpanel. It's not the new cheap stuff. It's from the 40s.



Not trying to be rude, but what is your level of electrical experience? I'm not fond of drilling anything in a panel, much prefer knock outs and avoid flying metal shards.


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Not trying to be rude, but what is your level of electrical experience? I'm not fond of drilling anything in a panel, much prefer knock outs and avoid flying metal shards.


Well he's green. 4 now...


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

*Wait till chips hit the fan*



TGGT said:


> Well he's green. 4 now...


Wait till the chips hit the buss bars he'll be white as a sheet when it goes BOOM.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

TGGT said:


> Well he's green. 4 now...


Yeah but there is years between 'neon' and 'forrest'!


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## PlugsAndLights (Jan 19, 2016)

Easy guys, residential electricians rarely have reason to punch holes. 
To the op: isn't there some type of cable available in your area that would 
suitable? 3 conductor AC90? 
P&L


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

PlugsAndLights said:


> Easy guys, residential electricians rarely have reason to punch holes.
> To the op: isn't there some type of cable available in your area that would
> suitable? 3 conductor AC90?
> P&L


Never thought about that, having had a newbie drill pilot holes and punch out spots I've marked so often.


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## PlugsAndLights (Jan 19, 2016)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Never thought about that, having had a newbie drill pilot holes and punch out spots I've marked so often.


I wired tract houses for 3 or 4 years, usually 2 to 3 per week. Don't think
I punched 1 hole in that time. Mark it, box it, drill it, pull it, tie it in, get 
the fk out. Punching holes is not the way to keep your employer in 
business in the tract housing business. 
P&L


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

PlugsAndLights said:


> Easy guys, residential electricians rarely have reason to punch holes.
> To the op: isn't there some type of cable available in your area that would
> suitable? 3 conductor AC90?
> P&L




Yeah what's your point? Giving industrial advice to a resi wireman and giving resi advice to a industrial/comm guy is no different than giving diy advice in my mind. You guys do what you want but as far as I'm concerned just because a guy is an electrician doesn't immediately qualify him for any and all types of unsupervised electrical work


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## wcord (Jan 23, 2011)

Biscuits said:


> Yeah what's your point? Giving industrial advice to a resi wireman and giving resi advice to a industrial/comm guy is no different than giving diy advice in my mind. You guys do what you want but as far as I'm concerned just because a guy is an electrician doesn't immediately qualify him for any and all types of unsupervised electrical work


So what you are suggesting, is that if an electrician has never done a particular procedure, he shouldn't ask for advice? 
Thought the purpose of this forum was to share information among fellow electricians?


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Biscuits said:


> Yeah what's your point? Giving industrial advice to a resi wireman and giving resi advice to a industrial/comm guy is no different than giving diy advice in my mind. You guys do what you want but as far as I'm concerned just because a guy is an electrician doesn't immediately qualify him for any and all types of unsupervised electrical work


If you're a real electrician, you figure it out. I could do your job, it would just take me longer.


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

wcord said:


> So what you are suggesting, is that if an electrician has never done a particular procedure, he shouldn't ask for advice?
> 
> Thought the purpose of this forum was to share information among fellow electricians?




No I'm not saying someone can't ask for advice but I am absolutely saying not all electricians are qualified to do all electrical work. I also agree with what 99cents said, a good electrician will figure it out sure enough but that's the difference between a learning curve and having no clue what the hell you're doing and potentially compromising safety.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

I get what you're saying, Biscuits.


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## B-Nabs (Jun 4, 2014)

It seems to me the OP should have a journeyman above them who can offer guidance in these matters.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

We have a lot of industrial guys out of work here who have descended on the resi market using homeowner permits. Now the inspectors are so busy handing out red stickers that it's affecting legitimate contractors. One of these dudes who was flunking inspections asked an inspector, "Why are you always doing this to me?" WTF?

I don't have any problems with a guy doing what he has to do to buy himself a baloney sandwich but gimme a break. I don't care if it takes you two weeks to wire a garage, you figure it out and you do it right. If you don't have a basic understanding of circuit loading, bonding, box fill, circuit protection, etc., and don't care, you will never get any respect from me or anyone else who values this trade.

Edit: I'm not saying the OP is one of those guys.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

This is going to catch flak but it seems spot on from where I'm looking. This type of thing is where a Union apprenticeship is the better start. A person that has a full Union apprenticeship under his or her belt will have a basic understanding of all the skills needed to make it. You can't say the same about a non Union residential romex runner. A guy could get employed as a resi helper and work up to mechanic then stay gainfully employed wiring houses and never gain the slightest experience with pipe bending, punching holes, dealing with metal framing , or any one of a hundred other things. Not a knock or insult just an observation from this thread.


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

*Close*




MechanicalDVR said:


> This type of thing is where a Union apprenticeship is the better start. A person that has a full Union apprenticeship under his or her belt will have a basic understanding of all the skills needed to make it. .


 
Close but it don't have to be union. I think it just needs to be a well-rounded apprenticeship.  
 I served my apprenticeship for the federal government and they had 7 different electrical apprenticeship programs going at the same time ( res , industrial, high voltage, ......) and part of it was going to the other shops to cover other areas. 
One of the best things I saw was we got an apprentice from fire control who was a “know it all “when he came over to the electrical maintenance shop I was in. We were working on a machine troubleshooting a motor and he clamped his amprobe around a black cable coming from the pump and said nothing was flowing thru the cable, but the motor is running? He was clamped around a hydraulic line!


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

*Strongly disagree*




Biscuits said:


> Giving industrial advice to a resi wireman and giving resi advice to a industrial/com guy is no different than giving diy advice in my mind.


 
To make a blanket statement like that is wrong. 95% of electricians have the basic safety knowledge to do the work safely, while only 10% of DYI do. It is up to us to give a answer that will lead them in the right direction when they ask. There is no one on this site that knows it all, just hope you don't ever need help out of your area.


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

just the cowboy said:


> 95% of electricians have the basic safety knowledge to do the work safely, while only 10% of DYI do.



I will just say I disagree with this statement 100%. 





just the cowboy said:


> just hope you don't ever need help out of your area



I worked resi for a few years when I started out, roping houses and doing remodel work so I think I'll be ok. I'm not one of those clowns that thinks industrial electricians are gods gift to earth and residential work is for the simpletons, BUT I can tell you with 100% certainty that there are countless more ways to get yourself f*cked up working in industrial systems IF YOU DONT KNOW WHAT YOU'RE DOING


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

just the cowboy said:


> Close but it don't have to be union. I think it just needs to be a well-rounded apprenticeship.
> I served my apprenticeship for the federal government and they had 7 different electrical apprenticeship programs going at the same time ( res , industrial, high voltage, ......) and part of it was going to the other shops to cover other areas.
> One of the best things I saw was we got an apprentice from fire control who was a “know it all “when he came over to the electrical maintenance shop I was in. We were working on a machine troubleshooting a motor and he clamped his amprobe around a black cable coming from the pump and said nothing was flowing thru the cable, but the motor is running? He was clamped around a hydraulic line!



I wasn't aware that non Union apprenticeships provide a wide variety of experience during training like the Union does. It seems so many merit guys spend their entire career in residential work, limiting their knowledge base. 
I just think it takes way more than just bread to make a great meal.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Biscuits said:


> I will just say I disagree with this statement 100%.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Industrial maintenance, yes. Most of the gorillas doing industrial construction can't help but put their Carhaarts on backwards.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

99cents said:


> Industrial maintenance, yes. Most of the gorillas doing industrial construction can't help but put their Carhaarts on backwards.


Service guys skilled in troubleshooting from either side of the fence build all the same self preservation skills.


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

MechanicalDVR said:


> I wasn't aware that non Union apprenticeships provide a wide variety of experience during training like the Union does. It seems so many merit guys spend their entire career in residential work, limiting their knowledge base.
> I just think it takes way more than just bread to make a great meal.


I went through a nonunion apprenticeship but it was up to me to vary my work experience. I started out in small commercial, then big commercial, then residential construction and service, then industrial construction and service.

I'm seeing apprentices in our local not getting properly rotated like they should.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

TGGT said:


> I went through a nonunion apprenticeship but it was up to me to vary my work experience. I started out in small commercial, then big commercial, then residential construction and service, then industrial construction and service.
> 
> I'm seeing apprentices in our local not getting properly rotated like they should.


I have seen more that stay in one speciality than those that get varied experience. Sometimes it just maybe fear of change.


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

MechanicalDVR said:


> I have seen more that stay in one speciality than those that get varied experience. Sometimes it just maybe fear of change.


There's absolute truth in what you're saying. It just boils down to the individual. I was always afraid of not learning enough.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

TGGT said:


> There's absolute truth in what you're saying. It just boils down to the individual. I was always afraid of not learning enough.


I saw what my Uncles had going on as owners of their businesses when I was very young, all the headaches. I liked using the tools and making things runs from my first days on a job as a newbie. Some of the senior guys got to do the fun things and make things happen. That was what I wanted from early on, to be the guy that made things run. I learned everything I could from the respected senior men. I terminated the wiring to all the controls on an oil fired boiler and made it run at 9 years old to the amazement of a much older crew. My Uncle was ticked (popped me in the jaw) when he got there to wire things up, he was pissed right until the point he looked over all the work I'd done. I was never afraid to do what had to be done to get things up and running. Ambition is everything, I didn't want to be old (30-40) and still be a monkey breaking down and installing boilers and whole mechanical rooms. The desire to wear a white shirt and have a loaded leather tool pouch hanging on my hip was a serious goal.


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

MechanicalDVR said:


> I saw what my Uncles had going on as owners of their businesses when I was very young, all the headaches. I liked using the tools and making things runs from my first days on a job as a newbie. Some of the senior guys got to do the fun things and make things happen. That was what I wanted from early on, to be the guy that made things run. I learned everything I could from the respected senior men. I terminated the wiring to all the controls on an oil fired boiler and made it run at 9 years old to the amazement of a much older crew. My Uncle was ticked (popped me in the jaw) when he got there to wire things up, he was pissed right until the point he looked over all the work I'd done. I was never afraid to do what had to be done to get things up and running. Ambition is everything, I didn't want to be old (30-40) and still be a monkey breaking down and installing boilers and whole mechanical rooms. The desire to wear a white shirt and have a loaded leather tool pouch hanging on my hip was a serious goal.


I'm a first generation electrician, even a first generation tradesman as far as I know. I got a late start at about 22 compared to some people. Very little noteworthy construction experience before 2008. One of the first things I was told when I started working is that the easiest way to a raise was moving between companies (being non-union). It turned out to be pretty accurate, and a great way to get my hands in all kinds of work.

I've never been fired or laid off, I've always quit on my terms. I'm not a stellar electrician. Far from it, I think. I've only been doing the work for 8 years, but I think I'm generally competent based off my work history. I tend to get an "itch" when I stay in one place too long, and feel like I'm losing ground with my short time here on earth.

Master's license is my next goal, but I feel like the decisions I make now carry much more weight than they used to, and doing nothing is just as serious a decision as any other.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

TGGT said:


> I'm a first generation electrician, even a first generation tradesman as far as I know. I got a late start at about 22 compared to some people. Very little noteworthy construction experience before 2008. One of the first things I was told when I started working is that the easiest way to a raise was moving between companies (being non-union). It turned out to be pretty accurate, and a great way to get my hands in all kinds of work.
> 
> I've never been fired or laid off, I've always quit on my terms. I'm not a stellar electrician. Far from it, I think. I've only been doing the work for 8 years, but I think I'm generally competent based off my work history. I tend to get an "itch" when I stay in one place too long, and feel like I'm losing ground with my short time here on earth.
> 
> Master's license is my next goal, but I feel like the decisions I make now carry much more weight than they used to, and doing nothing is just as serious a decision as any other.



I never saw anything you posted that said newbie or lacking skills so you're doing good from where I read. I have only really been laid off once and it was what I asked for. I have walked out on two different employers. I had called my BA the last time and told him I'd need a new job the following week because I was going to confront my boss that day. I did and I did and he had a spot for me. I stayed there 4 years before calling it quits for medical reasons. Biggest problem I ever had in the working circles was being the youngster, especially when I was more skilled than guys twice my age for many years. I paid attention to details and tried harder. I was told to slow down many times and disregarded it. The trades (Union and non) have been good to me and my family.


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

MechanicalDVR said:


> I paid attention to details and tried harder. I was told to slow down many times and disregarded it. The trades (Union and non) have been good to me and my family.


I hate it when guys say to "slow down", when there's no reason to. Fortunately, I have not run into many of those types. 

But paying attention to detail. Boy, I've been pulling my hair out lately. I'll save you the details and say I got paired with another JIW from out of state who doesn't seem to understand the concepts of plumb square and level on a job with all exposed rigid and emt.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

TGGT said:


> I hate it when guys say to "slow down", when there's no reason to. Fortunately, I have not run into many of those types.
> 
> But paying attention to detail. Boy, I've been pulling my hair out lately. I'll save you the details and say I got paired with another JIW from out of state who doesn't seem to understand the concepts of plumb square and level on a job with all exposed rigid and emt.


If I didn't constantly use a level or plumb bob when I was learning, I'd have been hit. Being the boss's nephew is only fantastic in the eyes of those not in that position. 

When I was first a jman working on government contracts the vast majority of experienced jmen told me to slow down constantly, "what's the rush", "it will still be here tomorrow". That mentality is the one thing I hate to hear about Union guys, while it may have been a thing years ago it has gone the way of the plumb bob, rarely seen currently.


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## green4now (Jul 29, 2016)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Not trying to be rude, but what is your level of electrical experience? I'm not fond of drilling anything in a panel, much prefer knock outs and avoid flying metal shards.


Ha, no offense taken. I know enough not to drill into the panel while it's live (and since it's the main feed, that means waiting until after the EC cuts the feed.)

I don't *want* to drill into the panel. But no matter how hard I pull, I can't make the 1.5" knockout fit my 2" Flex fitting.

Joking aside, I'm open to ideas.


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## green4now (Jul 29, 2016)

PlugsAndLights said:


> Don't drill any more than you have to to get a the right knockout tool in.
> Better yet, don't drill at all if you can use an existing knockout to start
> the tool.
> See image.
> P&L


What am I looking at there?

The box does have 1.5" knockouts and there is one that I'll be comign through. I just need to enlarge it to accommodate my 2" Flex.

This panel ONLY houses the main 100A breaker. It's receives 2ga wire directly from the meter, and this panel is connected to the main breaker panel, below it.

I will be tying my 2,2,2,4 feed into the main 100A breaker and running the neutral and ground through this box and into the breaker panel, where I'll attach those lines as needed.

But the issue is getting into the box. Right now the only entrance to it is through the back, which is attached to the wall. The meter is on the other side.


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## green4now (Jul 29, 2016)

Biscuits said:


> Have you not made a hole in a metal enclosure yet? There's hole saws and knock out kits and that's about it. Good luck....


1" ones yes. 2", no, and especially not with 240 volts less than an inch away from where I'm drilling.

Of course this will seem like much less of a big deal when the E.C. shuts off the power. But I still want to know what sort of tool to use to cut a 2" knockout/hole.

But I think 2 3/8 carbide is sounding good.


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## green4now (Jul 29, 2016)

PlugsAndLights said:


> Teck is only a little more expensive than the alternatives. The connectors are
> expensive. When used in dry conditions you can sometimes use much cheaper
> connectors. I haven't bought one of these lately so one of the other Canucks
> can jump in and correct me, but I think they go for $10 to $20 depending on
> ...


What is this showing me? Does it downsize from 2" flex to a 1.5" knockout?

I already have a plastic connector for the flex. Can I not tie that into the metal box? I was specifically told by the master elec. on the job that I could since I'm bringing non-metallic flex into the box.


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## green4now (Jul 29, 2016)

Biscuits said:


> This is bordering on diy.


If you have any specific suggestions for a more proper approach, I'm all ears.


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## green4now (Jul 29, 2016)

Biscuits said:


> No I'm not saying someone can't ask for advice but I am absolutely saying not all electricians are qualified to do all electrical work. I also agree with what 99cents said, a good electrician will figure it out sure enough but that's the difference between a learning curve and having no clue what the hell you're doing and potentially compromising safety.


You might be surprised to learn that I agree with you. But I don't see how my OP qualifies.

All I asked is how to connect the 2" non-metallic flex to a metal box with a 1.5" knockout. I've never done it before, so I'm asking for opinions. The Elec. Contractor I'm working under gave me a 2" plastic connector to go with the flex and the metal box and no info on whether I can use a plastic connector or how to turn a 1.5" hole into 2".

Sure I have ideas, but I figured I'd ask here. Is that really so off-base?


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## green4now (Jul 29, 2016)

B-Nabs said:


> It seems to me the OP should have a journeyman above them who can offer guidance in these matters.


I have an electrical contractor who has failed two inspections in a row. That's why I got brought in. There is a lot I don't know but I do good rough-ins and have good attention to detail.

The Elec. Contractor left me with 2" flex, a plastic 2" connector, and a metal box with a 1.5" hole. And then he disappeared and no one's heard from him in weeks.

So you guys are it, and I appreciate the advice.


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## green4now (Jul 29, 2016)

Biscuits said:


> Yeah what's your point? Giving industrial advice to a resi wireman and giving resi advice to a industrial/comm guy is no different than giving diy advice in my mind. You guys do what you want but as far as I'm concerned just because a guy is an electrician doesn't immediately qualify him for any and all types of unsupervised electrical work


I'm the OP. Here's why I disagree with what you said: if I were some dips%&# diy guy, I wouldn't have taken the time to ask the question here. I'd have drilled into the box with whatever 2" bit I had lying around, duct taped the flex into the hole, filled it in with Gorilla Glue, and posted a photo on Facebook to show off my skills.

Anyway I have all the respect in the world for DIY guys, so long as they take the time to do the work right. For example you could say I'm a diy auto mechanic 'cuz I haven't been to a shop in years. My car is in excellent shape though because I take the time to learn what I'm doing first.

I respect your opinion and we're probably not as far apart as you might think, but I did feel the need to stand up for myself a little bit there.


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## green4now (Jul 29, 2016)

Biscuits said:


> BUT I can tell you with 100% certainty that there are countless more ways to get yourself f*cked up working in industrial systems IF YOU DONT KNOW WHAT YOU'RE DOING


Yeah but so long as you're wearing leather gloves you really don't have to worry, am I right?


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## green4now (Jul 29, 2016)

PlugsAndLights said:


> Easy guys, residential electricians rarely have reason to punch holes.
> To the op: isn't there some type of cable available in your area that would
> suitable? 3 conductor AC90?
> P&L


Thank you for your posts.

That's a great idea but I have already run the wire. I've already run 4 wires (2,2,2,4) through the PVC that comes from the new soon-to-be main panel outdoors. This PVC houses the 2,2,2,4 until the PVC ends at a non-metallic junction box 12 feet (5 up and 7 across) from the old, 1940s main panel. 

Those 12 feet are covered with conduit and other crap with no right angles, so I got 15 feet of non-metallic flex to get me from the non-metallic junction box to the metal box (which has been the main panel since the '40s and will be the subpanel when this is all done.) The main panel is composed of a small, top, metal box from the '40s with the 100A breaker. This box has 1.5" knockouts that aren't used because the 2ga wire comes in the back, right from the meter. That box is directly on top of the main breaker panel, also from the 40s, that goes to all the branch circuits, and it is this larger box which has the ground and (soon-to-be) separate neutral panel.

I also have a plastic connector for the flex that I was told by the electrical contractor to connect to the metal box (even though that feels very wrong) but anyway it requires a 2" knockout. The old box only has a 1.5" knockout, so I was asking for advice about how to enlarge the hole.

My concern at this point (other than all the other concerns) are:

1 - what connector should I use instead of the plastic connector? (unless someone can confirm that it's okay to tie non-metallic Flex to a metal box using a non-metallic connector)

2 - how to enlarge the hole to accommodate the connector from (1)

3 - my OP concern about whether it's okay to use more than 6' of Flex has been answered to my satisfaction.


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## wcord (Jan 23, 2011)

green4now said:


> Thank you for your posts.
> 
> That's a great idea but I have already run the wire. I've already run 4 wires (2,2,2,4) through the PVC that comes from the new soon-to-be main panel outdoors. This PVC houses the 2,2,2,4 until the PVC ends at a non-metallic junction box 12 feet (5 up and 7 across) from the old, 1940s main panel.
> 
> ...


assuming you are going straight in


Knock out cutter if you have the room to use it


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Holy overthink, Batman. It's only fifteen feet. If you don't want to enlarge the hole, then buy some cable and be done with it. Use your 15' of flex on another job.


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

green4now said:


> Yeah but so long as you're wearing leather gloves you really don't have to worry, am I right?




You must be joking here so at least I know you have a sense of humor. I never intended to knock on you personally. It's probably frustrating working in a new environment with virtually no guidance. That being said I wouldn't in good conscience give you the kind of advice over the forum that you need to be getting in person.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

green4now said:


> 1" ones yes. 2", no, and especially not with 240 volts less than an inch away from where I'm drilling.
> 
> Of course this will seem like much less of a big deal when the E.C. shuts off the power. But I still want to know what sort of tool to use to cut a 2" knockout/hole.
> 
> But I think 2 3/8 carbide is sounding good.


Do you know what a 2" K.O. punch is? I'd never drill when I can use a punch. Avoid shooting small metal particles around inside the panel.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

green4now said:


> Yeah but so long as you're wearing leather gloves you really don't have to worry, am I right?


If all you get from this post is you need leather gloves, you really need to dig a little more into all that has been said here. Or take up gardening!


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Biscuits said:


> No I'm not saying someone can't ask for advice but I am absolutely saying not all electricians are qualified to do all electrical work. I also agree with what 99cents said, a good electrician will figure it out sure enough but that's the difference between a learning curve and having no clue what the hell you're doing and potentially compromising safety.


This seems to be a good assessment of the case at hand.

The more I read his responses the more true this line rings out. This seems to be a kid that should be getting his answers from his journeyman.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

If you're a small contractor, you build up your tool inventory as you go along. If you need a 2" KO cutter, buy it. You will use it again. Tools are a cost of doing business. When I started out, I needed a longer extension ladder. I told my customer I would go to my shop and get it. I went to the store and bought one.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

99cents said:


> If you're a small contractor, you build up your tool inventory as you go along. If you need a 2" KO cutter, buy it. You will use it again. Tools are a cost of doing business. When I started out, I needed a longer extension ladder. I told my customer I would go to my shop and get it. I went to the store and bought one.


There is way more going on here than just a need to buy a KO punch.


*"I have an electrical contractor who has failed two inspections in a row. That's why I got brought in. There is a lot I don't know but I do good rough-ins and have good attention to detail.

The Elec. Contractor left me with 2" flex, a plastic 2" connector, and a metal box with a 1.5" hole. And then he disappeared and no one's heard from him in weeks."*

*Bells meet whistles*


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

The easiest solution I see is get an electrician on that job.


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## PlugsAndLights (Jan 19, 2016)

green4now said:


> What is this showing me? Does it downsize from 2" flex to a 1.5" knockout?
> 
> I already have a plastic connector for the flex. Can I not tie that into the metal box? I was specifically told by the master elec. on the job that I could since I'm bringing non-metallic flex into the box.


Sorry op, what you are looking at there is no good to you. That image was
meant for others contributing to this thread who may have been interested 
in the cables used in Canada. Again, no use to you. 
P&L


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## green4now (Jul 29, 2016)

Biscuits said:


> You must be joking here so at least I know you have a sense of humor. I never intended to knock on you personally. It's probably frustrating working in a new environment with virtually no guidance. That being said I wouldn't in good conscience give you the kind of advice over the forum that you need to be getting in person.


I didn't take it as a personal dig. We have a slight difference of opinion, nothing more and no hard feelings.

And of course I'm joking. Everyone knows the gloves have to be rubber.


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## green4now (Jul 29, 2016)

MechanicalDVR said:


> The more I read his responses the more true this line rings out. This seems to be a kid that should be getting his answers from his journeyman.


I'm 41. Have been getting paid as an electrician (apprentice) for 6 years, and was an apprentice for three years going back a couple of decades.

I think what's happened is that the original post and question has been turned around so much that a mountain has been made out of a molehill.

My question was really: does anyone know of some newfangled connector for this that I might not have heard of because otherwise, I'm going to have to drill and that sucks.

That's all.


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## green4now (Jul 29, 2016)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Do you know what a 2" K.O. punch is? I'd never drill when I can use a punch. Avoid shooting small metal particles around inside the panel.


Excellent! Sir, you have answered my question. I did not know of 2" knockout punches but I knew I didn't want to drill into that box if I could avoid it. Since there's no magical connector I can use, that means that thanks to your post I now have a solution.

Since my earlier question regarding over 6' was also answered, I'm ready to finish this sucker.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

green4now said:


> I'm 41. Have been getting paid as an electrician (apprentice) for 6 years, and was an apprentice for three years going back a couple of decades.
> 
> I think what's happened is that the original post and question has been turned around so much that a mountain has been made out of a molehill.
> 
> ...


Your comment about leather gloves was funny til it seems it wasn't a joke.


1. Drilling out an existing KO is not possible without some media to use for a center bit. 

2. Six years in the trade and not knowing what a knock out punch is speaks volumes to lack of experience.

3. Saying the EC will shut the power off is not extolling your experience level and sounds a tad scary.

4. Having a ceiling full of conduit and other blockages probably still has room to place a couple hangers and use a piece of conduit.

5. Using flex for this just sounds supper hack.

6. Do you think there is a 'miracle' connector that can put an elephants pecker in a mouse's ass? 2" connectors go in 2" holes (which are actually closer to 2.5" holes)

7. Being a helper and not insured many here would say "call a licensed electrician" and that advice is truly sound. 

Not looking to be a **** but it is what it is, something you should not be doing on your own.


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## green4now (Jul 29, 2016)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Your comment about leather gloves was funny til it seems it wasn't a joke.


Hm. When was that, exactly?



> 1. Drilling out an existing KO is not possible without some media to use for a center bit.


Exactly. And that's why I asked for suggestions as to what to use. I think it's you who suggested a "punch." And that's what I think I'll use. Thanks again!



> 2. Six years in the trade and not knowing what a knock out punch is speaks volumes to lack of experience.


I can't speak to that comment. I can tell you that I've never seen a metal box with knockouts smaller than the conduit I'm running to it. I usually have a metal knockout I can use or I am drilling through plastic. I've never drilled (or punched, in this case) through metal before.



> 3. Saying the EC will shut the power off is not extolling your experience level and sounds a tad scary.


Ah! By "EC" I meant Electric Company, not Electrical Contractor. My mistake there. I feel silly typing "elco" but I can see your source of confusion.

And obviously, you wouldn't suggest that I punch a knockout to a main breaker box before power is shut off, so I'm sure that the source of this confusion is my abbreviation. 

Once Elco has shut off power to the meter and activated the new one, I'll be (shutting off the new main breaker and) connecting the new main panel to the old one, through the 2" hole I'll be punching out, thanks to your suggestion.



> 4. Having a ceiling full of conduit and other blockages probably still has room to place a couple hangers and use a piece of conduit.


It's not a ceiling, but your point is well taken. But the answer is no. There is not any other place. At least not one that I, the EC (contractor this time, not elco), the building owner, or the foreman can see.



> 5. Using flex for this just sounds supper hack.


I agree! I had a few different ideas, but they were rejected by the others. So the Electrical Contractor finally told me to use the flex. But since he has a history of failing inspections, I asked here for specific reasons not to do it. Thankfully, the opposite happened and I'm ready to finish this sucker.



> 6. Do you think there is a 'miracle' connector that can put an elephants pecker in a mouse's ass? 2" connectors go in 2" holes (which are actually closer to 2.5" holes)


No, but if you re-read my question you'll find that it had relatively little to do with elephants peckers. But now that's all I'll be thinking about when I handle the flex. Thanks for that.

And yes, I did think that there was a possibility that 2" NON-metallic flex might have the same rating as 1.5" METAL. I wasn't sure, so I asked. And I don't feel stupid for thinking that was a possibility, and I didn't have my codebook handy (but I do now.)



> 7. Being a helper and not insured many here would say "call a licensed electrician" and that advice is truly sound.
> 
> 
> > Since you don't have an explanation, that's not helpful. Sounds more like dogma than data. Anyway, I don't see how or why I should call someone else in. For one thing, the Electrical Contractor is the one who told me to do it this way. But more to your point: it's not as though this is a challenge electrically. It's a simple subpanel, wiring-wise.
> ...


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

green4now said:


> Yeah but so long as you're wearing leather gloves you really don't have to worry, am I right?


This is where the leather glove comment came from.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

green4now said:


> Ah! By "EC" I meant Electric Company, not Electrical Contractor. My mistake there. I feel silly typing "elco" but I can see your source of confusion.
> 
> *Poco for power company is the common term used.
> *
> ...



*Just hate to read a news article that has you listed as a statistic and know you were on here looking for instructions you should be getting from the guy you are apprenticing under.*


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## green4now (Jul 29, 2016)

> Rating has absolutely nothing to do with the physical diameter of different size conduits.


Maybe this is a language thing again? The last failed inspection has a note from the inspector saying:

"conduit rating too small for current load"

That was before I stepped down from 200A to 100A at the new main panel, pulled out about two tons of thhn that was stuffed into 2" PVC, and replaced it all with one 2,2,2,4, but that's beside the point.

The point is that I thought there was a possibility that I would be allowed to run my 2,2,2,4 through 2" flex and then use some sort of a size-down, metal connector at the metal box to connect it to the 1.5" punch-out. I might have been wrong, but it wasn't a crazy question.

Maybe I should be asking: what definition of "rating" are you using? Maybe I should be using your definition instead of the inspector's.



> The dogma on this forum may save your life one day if you are in over your head.


Perhaps, but dogma always and everywhere has to be scoffed at. What matters is reasoned arguments. At least that's my opinion.

EDIT: What matters is reason, not dogma. Except when there's an inspection scheduled.



> If you are working under a licensed EC no sweat, if you are working like a scab with no permit than you have no legality behind you to be doing electrical work of this nature.


I am working under an EC. He hasn't been seen in weeks, and he failed a few inspections before he disappeared, but he's the one with his name on the permit and the flex was his idea. How to get it into the box with the 1.5" knockouts was up to me to figure out, and thanks to you I have that licked now.

But to speak to what you said: depending on the state, you don't have to have any sort of permit to do electrical work legally. For example, the first guy I apprenticed under had been a professional electrician for 28 years. He never had a piece of paperwork and that was totally legal. He even had insurance and the contract for the local school district, for example.



MechanicalDVR said:


> Just hate to read a news article that has you listed as a statistic and know you were on here looking for instructions you should be getting from the guy you are apprenticing under.


Me, too. And I have no doubt that you mean that and I appreciate it.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

99cents said:


> If you're a real electrician, you figure it out. I could do your job, it would just take me longer.


Any of us could sit around all day and watch green farm equipment being made.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Jlarson said:


> Any of us could sit around all day and watch green farm equipment being made.


As long as there was coffee I'd do that at a reduced rate! :thumbup:


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