# Am I a hack.. YOU be the judge..



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

I have been having a "polite" discussion with a few members here about a job I completed and the methods I had used.

*A few comments from them*


Originally Posted by *Black4Truck*







Well TOOL... you and Mr. Squeaky.. Peter D... are telling me this install is all wrong and people are going to die



We just maintain that it's *WRONG*. 


*REPLY... WHAT CODE REFERENCE ARE YOU USING TO MAKE THIS STATEMENT*


Originally Posted by *mcclary's electrical*







Then answer this,,,,,,,why are you bothering documenting the location of each box???

It's because you know the method is not watertight and will eventually fail. PERIOD<<<<<<END OF STORY,,,this is not a permanent wiring method, rathe a tail light warranty that will eventually fail. Of course you think you've never had a problem in twenty years, because they don't call you to fix it. The call a professional. You ACTUALLY HAVE NO IDEA of how many of your splices have failed. Or are setting there leeching current into the ground driving the customers electric bill up and creating a gradiant pool of energy in somebody's yard.

*Reply : You got a big mouth and I don't give "taillight warranty" *

*JOB DESCRIPTION*

Install 800 feet of PVC pipe with one run for 12V lighting and another run for 120V power, sign, flag, and pillar lighting.

12V lighting will be for (4) 300 watt circuits, with (22) lights and possible expansion at a later date.

I used PVC boxes, UF, and THHN/THWN wire for all of the above.

PVC boxes were installed at finished dirt grade, under grass for easy access.

Wires were spliced, brushed with Scotchkote. and wire nutted. Wire nut was filled with Scotchkote and allowed to dry.

*APPLICATION INFORMATION FOR SCOTCHKOTE*

"For use on splices which are subject to abnormal weathering or moisture conditions"

"After taping splices with Scotch Brand Vinyl Electrical Tape apply Scotchkote evenly over splice, extending a short distance onto cable insulation" _(I used wire nuts instead of tape)_ 

I took pictures of every PVC box for future use.


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

I vote: HACK. Hackety hackjob. You HACK:sleep1:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

:yawn:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

NolaTigaBait said:


> I vote: HACK. Hackety hackjob. You HACK:sleep1:


I agree. Hackety hack hack hackety hackety hack (to the tune of Frosty the Snowman)


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

NolaTigaBait said:


> I vote: HACK. Hackety hackjob. You HACK:sleep1:


And the code reference would be...


Speak up.. I can't hear you :laughing:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

​


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

I dont even understand the question .... so hackety hack :thumbup:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

You are supposed to tape the wire nuts _first_, then use ScotchKote.

I wouldn't bother with that hack method anyway. I would use these instead:



















They are at least designed and intended for the purpose.


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## Charlie K (Aug 14, 2008)

Black4Truck said:


> I have been having a "polite" discussion with a few members here about a job I completed and the methods I had used.
> 
> *A few comments from them*
> 
> ...


 
Chill out. I would of used Quazite boxes and set them in a bed of gravel.
We use lots of gravel because the soil is clay. I usually use larger wire and splice using bugs with rubber and plastic tape. And never had to go back to repair. And no your not a hack.

Charlie


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

You need to stop being so sensitive and  all the time.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

nolabama said:


> I dont even understand the question .... so hackety hack :thumbup:


The question is what is wrong with my installation that TOOL says is _*WRONG*_


And for the other moron to say I give "taillight warranty's"

Lets hear from all the "experts" out there :thumbsup:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Peter D said:


> You need to stop being so sensitive and  all the time.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Peter D said:


> You are supposed to tape the wire nuts _first_, then use ScotchKote.
> 
> I wouldn't bother with that hack method anyway. I would use these instead:
> 
> ...


I quoted the side of the can.. take it up with 3M.. they don't even say use wire nuts


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> I quoted the side of the can.. take it up with 3M.. they don't even say use wire nuts


That would be a code violation because a mechanical connection is required. So the process is - wire connector, tape, then ScotchKote.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Charlie K said:


> And no your not a hack.
> 
> Charlie


Thanks Charlie :thumbsup:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Black4Truck said:


> The question is what is wrong with my installation that TOOL says is _*WRONG*_
> 
> 
> And for the other moron to say I give "taillight warranty's"
> ...


 

I guess we're not experts then. You must be the only one.


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## Charlie K (Aug 14, 2008)

Man dont make me go outside in the cold to get the can.:whistling2:
I do not see anything wrong with your install.
No your not a HACK.
How long is your warranty:laughing:.

Charlie


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Peter D said:


> That would be a code violation because a mechanical connection is required. So the process is - wire connector, tape, then ScotchKote.


I agree with you  BUT, I can't see 3M giving instructions that are not code compliant


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

480sparky said:


> I guess we're not experts then. You must be the only one.


I never said I was an expert.. I did a job to the best of my ability and YOU said it was all wrong.. so back at you.. WHERE??

TOOL.. *you* are the first one who always say..* "give me a code reference"*


So I am waiting.. give me a number :thumbsup:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Black4Truck said:


> I never said I was an expert.. I did a job to the best of my ability and YOU said it was all wrong.. so back at you.. WHERE??
> 
> TOOL.. *you* are the first one who always say..* "give me a code reference"*
> 
> ...


 


I'm not an expert, so I can't help you. End of story.


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

480sparky said:


> I'm not an expert, so I can't help you. End of story.


:laughing:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

480sparky said:


> I'm not an expert, so I can't help you. End of story.


Gee TOOL.. you had so many things wrong yesterday with my install, but today you got nothing to back it up.. why is that???


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Black4Truck said:


> Gee TOOL.. you had so many things wrong yesterday with my install, but today you got nothing to back it up.. why is that???


 
I'm not an expert, you said so yourself. So I can't help you. End of story.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

480sparky said:


> I'm not an expert, you said so yourself. So I can't help you. End of story.


I never said you were not an expert.. just give me a code refrence.. as you *ALWAYS* tell other people :thumbsup:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Black4Truck said:


> I never said you were not an expert.. just give me a code refrence.. as you *ALWAYS* tell other people :thumbsup:





Black4Truck said:


> The question is what is wrong with my installation that TOOL says is _*WRONG*_
> ...............
> Lets hear from all the "experts" out there :thumbsup:


 

Sorry. I'm not an expert, so I can't help you. End of story.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Sorry. I'm not an expert, so I can't help you. End of story.


I understand.. you got nothing to back up.. We just maintain that it's _*WRONG*_.

I won't beat a dead horse..


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## electro916 (Jan 16, 2009)

How are you a hack, I mean for one you USED conduit, and number 2 you have separate pipes for the class 1 and class 2 wiring. I would have used a Quazite box also and set the top at finished grade level. but other than that it looks good.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

I am completly lost here, but I vote hack.:laughing:


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## crazymurph (Aug 19, 2009)

I say, Let's have a forum vote.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

crazymurph said:


> I say, Let's have a forum vote.


Fine with me, but I don't know how to post a forum vote :laughing:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

william1978 said:


> I am completly lost here, but I vote hack.:laughing:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Black4Truck said:


> ...........I won't beat a dead horse..


 
As opposed to the sole purpose of this thread?





Black4Truck said:


> Fine with me, but I don't know how to post a forum vote :laughing:


 

I'd tell you how, but I'm not an expert, so I can't help you. End of story.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

electro916 said:


> I would have used a Quazite box also and set the top at finished grade level. but other than that it looks good.


I would of had over (20) boxes sticking through the sod if I did that


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

480sparky said:


> As opposed to the sole purpose of this thread?


 
The whole purpose of this thread was for me to learn what I did wrong and what part of the code I violated.

I thought I did a really good job and was code compliant. 

I really do respect what other members have to say.. :thumbsup:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

The boxes need to remain accessible. End of story. Burying them with a layer of dirt over them is the violation. It doesn't matter how many pictures you take or measurements you leave behind. They are not accessible.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Peter D said:


> The boxes need to remain accessible. End of story. Burying them with a layer of dirt over them is the violation. It doesn't matter how many pictures you take or measurements you leave behind. They are not accessible.


The boxes are accessible and it is only grass over them.

Can you or anyone else give me a code reference?


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> The whole purpose of this thread was for me to learn what I did wrong and what part of the code I violated.
> 
> I thought I did a really good job and was code compliant.
> 
> I really do respect what other members have to say.. :thumbsup:


:sleep1:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> The boxes are accessible and it is only grass over them.
> 
> Can you or anyone else give me a code reference?


If there is grass over them they are not visible, and are therefore not accessible. :blink:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Fine. You asked for it.



> *314.15 Damp or Wet Locations.*
> In damp or wet locations, boxes, conduit bodies, and fittings shall be placed or equipped so as to prevent moisture from entering or accumulating within the box, conduit body, or fitting. Boxes, conduit bodies, and fittings installed in wet locations shall be listed for use in wet locations.


If you need to drill holes in the bottoms, then they're not preventing moisture from entering the box.



> *314.29 Boxes, Conduit Bodies, and Handhole Enclosures to Be Accessible.*
> Boxes, conduit bodies, and handhole enclosures shall be installed so that the wiring contained in them can be rendered accessible without removing any part of the building or, in underground circuits, without excavating sidewalks, paving, earth, or other substance that is to be used to establish the finished grade.


If you need to take measurements in order to dig them up, then they're not accessible.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Peter D said:


> If there is grass over them they are not visible, and are therefore not accessible. :blink:


Code.. give me code reference that relates to this installation


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Black4Truck said:


> Code.. give me code reference that relates to this installation


Back up two posts.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> Code.. give me code reference that relates to this installation


480sparky just did. I didn't even bother to look it up because common sense tells me that buying a box is a really bad idea.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

Black4Truck said:


>


 :sleep1:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Fine. You asked for it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

PVC pipes always have water in them.. moisture will get into any box 

Grass is not used to establish "final grade'.. that would be dirt.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> PVC pipes always have water in them.. moisture will get into any box
> 
> Grass is not used to establish "final grade'.. that would be dirt.


You're rationalizing your way out of a code violation.


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## cdnelectrician (Mar 14, 2008)

I don't see a problem with it, I always put a handhole cover over the PVC box so it isn't "buried". I would NOT bury a PVC box though.

Call me a hack, but I have used RTV silicone and filled the marrettes, installed them and then taped the joint with super 33 tape and then linerless splicing tape. NEVER had a problem or had an inspector fail the installation.


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

Black4Truck said:


> PVC pipes always have water in them.. moisture will get into any box
> 
> Grass is not used to establish "final grade'.. that would be dirt.


And where do we find that final grade is determined to be dirt?

Chris


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Black4Truck said:


> PVC pipes always have water in them.. moisture will get into any box .


So you must be admitting the code reference makes the install a violation.



Black4Truck said:


> Grass is not used to establish "final grade'.. that would be dirt.


Grass does not feed off of Polyvinyl Chloride. In order for grass to grow on _top_ of the buried box, it must have _dirt _below it.


I won't even bother looking up the physical damage aspect caused by 1500-lb lawn equipment running over those boxes & pipse..


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## electro916 (Jan 16, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> I would of had over (20) boxes sticking through the sod if I did that


I dont actually use a Quazite box. The ones I get are from Applied Engineering Products. I use the ones shown but they come in green also, they blend right in with grass:thumbsup:


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

Boxes........shall be installed so that the wiring contained in them can be rendered accessible in underground circuits without excavating earth, or other substance that is to be used to establish the finished grade. 

That's the one. If you need 20 boxes showing, so be it. You can always run conduit differenly to eliminate some boxes. Those flower beds are perfect locations for boxes. They would be barely visable.

Don't take it so personally. You are not a hack but the method used in this installation is shortsighted. The skotch kote is a great idea, just don't bury anymore boxes :thumbsup:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

raider1 said:


> And where do we find that final grade is determined to be dirt?
> 
> Chris


When building any structure do they go by final grade (dirt) or grass level when doing any kind of measurements where there are height restrictions

Grass can be (4) inches high and that would affect a roof line if there were restrictions in place


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## spdone (Dec 13, 2009)

What he did actually didn't seem to bad... but since you guys finally go down to what was wrong I see the point, but I need to get something straight so I dont' make the same mistake if you don't mind: The boxes he used are more for like in a poured slab correct?Grade being the top of that box AND cover with device, like a brass one or something. What he should have used is the open bottom one( I don't know the actual term for these but would call it a hand hole. I see those with plumbing and sprinkler stuff all the time.) The top of the hand hole one would be FINISHED grade (not covered by grass or anything for that matter) and the cover shows and is therefore accessable. Have I got this?


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## spdone (Dec 13, 2009)

I just re looked at the box he used.The idea being the cover makes the box weatherproof, but if water gets in, no way for it to drain, which is the problem, yes?


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

spdone said:


> What he did actually didn't seem to bad... but since you guys finally go down to what was wrong I see the point, but I need to get something straight so I dont' make the same mistake if you don't mind: The boxes he used are more for like in a poured slab correct?Grade being the top of that box AND cover with device, like a brass one or something. What he should have used is the open bottom one( I don't know the actual term for these but would call it a hand hole. I see those with plumbing and sprinkler stuff all the time.) The top of the hand hole one would be FINISHED grade (not covered by grass or anything for that matter) and the cover shows and is therefore accessable. Have I got this?


Only "mistake" here is where is final grade.. the dirt or the grass

Those boxes can be used anywhere except in the middle of a driveway (snow plow or car driving over it) ..in dirt or in concrete, but can't be a trip hazard.. using common sense here before someone asks for a 'listing"


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

spdone said:


> I just re looked at the box he used.The idea being the cover makes the box weatherproof, but if water gets in, no way for it to drain, which is the problem, yes?


When you cut a hole for PVC or UF to enter, it is not water tight.. water will leak in or out 

For the record, I drill a 1/2 inch hole for UF to enter box.. no fitting


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## ampman (Apr 2, 2009)

i've seen both threads and mabye i missed something but why did you make splices anyway if it was a repair ,use u.l. listed splice kit if not its hack work


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

ampman said:


> i've seen both threads and mabye i missed something but why did you make splices anyway if it was a repair ,use u.l. listed splice kit if not its hack work


Read post #1.. all info is there


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

Peter D said:


> If there is grass over them they are not visible, and are therefore not accessible. :blink:


I have been told by a local inspector that if you write the location of a j box inside the panel that contains the circuit thats in the j box its accessible. No code reference just AHJ But thats New Orleans so HACK


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## ampman (Apr 2, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> Read post #1.. all info is there


 like i said i seen both threads not read them


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## ampman (Apr 2, 2009)

ok i read the first post and it does not look good for you


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

ampman said:


> ok i read the first post and it does not look good for you


OK.. what don't you like about my installation and how would you have done it?


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## ampman (Apr 2, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> OK.. what don't you like about my installation and how would you have done it?


 in the original post about the "post light " # 13 and # 28 are not approved wiring methods thats what i don't like but you don't work for me so do what you think is right


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Yes, You're a hack


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## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

Black4Truck said:


> For the record, I drill a 1/2 inch hole for UF to enter box.. no fitting


How does that comply with 314.17?


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

EBFD6 said:


> How does that comply with 314.17?


It does not, but I have plastic wire entering a plastic box in dirt.. wires are not being moved around or subject to abuse.

Keep in mind, UF can be spliced with just silicone packed wire nuts and stuck in the ground.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

EBFD6 said:


> How does that comply with 314.17?


 
314.17 does not address cables, only conductors.


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## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

480sparky said:


> 314.17 does not address cables, only conductors.


read it again, 314.17(c) specifically addresses NM and UF cables


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Yes, You're a hack


Feel better now :laughing:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

480sparky said:


> 314.17 does not address cables, only conductors.


 
TOOL thanks.. I read it too fast and missed it :thumbsup:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Black4Truck said:


> TOOL thanks.. I read it too fast and missed it :thumbsup:


...................


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## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

Black4Truck said:


> It does not, but I have plastic wire entering a plastic box in dirt.. wires are not being moved around or subject to abuse.


So we only have to follow the rules when we feel like it? I'll have to keep that in mind the next time an inspector calls me on a code violation, "I don't have to follow the rules, I have a good excuse".


Black4Truck said:


> Keep in mind, UF can be spliced with just silicone packed wire nuts and stuck in the ground.


No, it can't!
UF can be splice with listed direct burial splice kits. There is a big difference.

You didn't use this method, you chose to use junction boxes and in turn need to follow the rules set forth in section 314.


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## electricalperson (Jan 11, 2008)

ive seen installations like this before. the hacks i used to work with used regular wire nuts and buried the box under ground. one day i was working in one of the boxes and i felt a tingle on a wire thats supposed to be dead. i broke out the simpson and had volts (dont remember how much) i searched the ground around where it came out of the building and found a 6x6 pvc box under a little dirt completely filled with water. the volts were going through the water onto the dead wire because they used regular ideal wirenuts. the wires were completely corroded and were in terrible shape. i believe the wire was regular THHN too. those morons didnt even know THHN was indoor only wire. 

nothing wrong with doing that just make sure the box isnt buried by dirt and you use the right wire and connectors for wet locations

the guy walked up to me and was like "WHAT ARE YOU DOING!!!" when he seen me use my simpson multi meter. he must of thought i was using a megger since meggers are banned at the company because nobody knows how to use them because according to everyone a megger is not to be used on wires...:laughing: i was told many times not to use the megger for whatever reason just an ohm meter since we all know an ohm meter is just as good as a megger...


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

EBFD6 said:


> So we only have to follow the rules when we feel like it? I'll have to keep that in mind the next time an inspector calls me on a code violation, "I don't have to follow the rules, I have a good excuse".
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Think what you like on that... I don't see a problem with using a 1/2 inch hole for UF

I'm talking about the blue wire nuts they sell for UF.. (2) to a pack at HD and I have never used them


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## JayH (Nov 13, 2009)

I looked up the Carlon series of the box you used and it is listed as suitable for direct buriel.

http://www.carlon.com/Master%20Catalog/Junction_Boxes_Brochure.pdf

You also seem to comply with the Code reference 314.29.

Drilling a hole in the bottom of the box seems to defeat the NEMA 6P rating.

I think Carlon had a different concept in mind when they designed this box and got UL approval for a NEMA 6P rating. It would seem to me this box is suited more for wash down or pump areas that see frequent H2O.

I would have opted for a different installation material.

A 9" Christy box has minimal cost and can accomodate quite a few conduits and splices.


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

800 feet of 12 volt lighting circuit?


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

JayH said:


> I looked up the Carlon series of the box you used and it is listed as suitable for direct buriel.
> 
> http://www.carlon.com/Master Catalog/Junction_Boxes_Brochure.pdf
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info :thumbsup:


A Christy box would not of been as good as a PVC box with multiple pipes entering into it.

Also snaking wires would of been harder IMO

Working like this has never let me down..


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

bobelectric said:


> 800 feet of 12 volt lighting circuit?


No.. that was total for line and low voltage systems


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## JayH (Nov 13, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> Thanks for the info :thumbsup:
> 
> 
> A Christy box would not of been as good as a PVC box with multiple pipes entering into it.
> ...


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

JayH said:


> Black4Truck said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks for the info :thumbsup:
> ...


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## electricalperson (Jan 11, 2008)

i want to learn how to make pvc pipe completly waterproof no matter what we do those pipes fill with water


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

electricalperson said:


> i want to learn how to make pvc pipe completly waterproof no matter what we do those pipes fill with water


 
Good to see you posting that.. I was waiting for someone to tell me PVC pipes are water tight.:thumbup:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

electricalperson said:


> i want to learn how to make pvc pipe completly waterproof no matter what we do those pipes fill with water


One word:_ condensation_.


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

electricalperson said:


> i want to learn how to make pvc pipe completly waterproof no matter what we do those pipes fill with water


100% agreed with that statement


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## sparky105 (Sep 29, 2009)

spdone said:


> What he did actually didn't seem to bad... but since you guys finally go down to what was wrong I see the point, but I need to get something straight so I dont' make the same mistake if you don't mind: The boxes he used are more for like in a poured slab correct?Grade being the top of that box AND cover with device, like a brass one or something. What he should have used is the open bottom one( I don't know the actual term for these but would call it a hand hole. I see those with plumbing and sprinkler stuff all the time.) The top of the hand hole one would be FINISHED grade (not covered by grass or anything for that matter) and the cover shows and is therefore accessable. Have I got this?


mud box is what I was taught and then fill the box with wax keeps the 
water displaced and easy to get to the joints if needed but never bury


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## sparky105 (Sep 29, 2009)

electricalperson said:


> ive seen installations like this before. the hacks i used to work with used regular wire nuts and buried the box under ground. one day i was working in one of the boxes and i felt a tingle on a wire thats supposed to be dead. i broke out the simpson and had volts (dont remember how much) i searched the ground around where it came out of the building and found a 6x6 pvc box under a little dirt completely filled with water. the volts were going through the water onto the dead wire because they used regular ideal wirenuts. the wires were completely corroded and were in terrible shape. i believe the wire was regular THHN too. those morons didnt even know THHN was indoor only wire.
> 
> nothing wrong with doing that just make sure the box isnt buried by dirt and you use the right wire and connectors for wet locations
> 
> the guy walked up to me and was like "WHAT ARE YOU DOING!!!" when he seen me use my simpson multi meter. * he must of thought i was using a megger since meggers are banned at the company because nobody knows how to use them because according to everyone a megger is not to be used on wires...:laughing: i was told many times not to use the megger for whatever reason just an ohm meter since we all know an ohm meter is just as good as a megger...*



did they really have a clue and I hope you learned from someone else because I would go get a lobotomy so I could forget everything they taught you:blink:


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## electricalperson (Jan 11, 2008)

480sparky said:


> One word:_ condensation_.


thats what i figured


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

A handhole would have been better. :thumbsup:


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## electricalperson (Jan 11, 2008)

Magnettica said:


> A handhole would have been better. :thumbsup:


a flower pot hand hole


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> A handhole would have been better. :thumbsup:



I agree. :thumbsup:


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Flower pot hand hole? Never heard of it. 

I meant using a REAL hand hole box for several conduits, with gravel on the bottom and a removable cover stamped ELECTRIC.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

electricalperson said:


> a flower pot hand hole


Think about that.. I'm going to have over (20) flower pots on the front lawn and the landscapers have to cut around everyone with a weed wacker.. after they hit it with a lawn-mower. 

I don't need access to these boxes ever again, unless something gets added. You guy are over engineering a plastic box under a few blades of grass. :no:

IF you had to find the boxes and I was long gone, using a wire tracer connected to any light fixture will lead you right to it.

TOOL has a wire tracer and works for cheese. :laughing:


----------



## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

Your really worked up over what other have to say about this job. I think its a good job. But, then again I am a Hack.


----------



## spdone (Dec 13, 2009)

Weeding through all the BS and bickering in this thread gets you some good info. I am not a resi guy and have not had the pleasure of doing an install like this before so the info has been actually very good for me. I learned something, but one question still remains for me: Why are there 20 boxes in someones lawn anyway?


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> Think about that.. I'm going to have over (20) flower pots on the front lawn and the landscapers have to cut around everyone with a weed wacker.. after they hit it with a lawn-mower.
> 
> I don't need access to these boxes ever again, unless something gets added. You guy are over engineering a plastic box under a few blades of grass. :no:


You really think you won't ever need access to those again? Never say never.  It just seems that leaving 20 buried boxes in someone's lawn has all the makings of a troubleshooting nightmare.


----------



## electricalperson (Jan 11, 2008)

Black4Truck said:


> Think about that.. I'm going to have over (20) flower pots on the front lawn and the landscapers have to cut around everyone with a weed wacker.. after they hit it with a lawn-mower.
> 
> I don't need access to these boxes ever again, unless something gets added. You guy are over engineering a plastic box under a few blades of grass. :no:
> 
> ...


this is a flower pot


----------



## JayH (Nov 13, 2009)

spdone said:


> but one question still remains for me: Why are there 20 boxes in someones lawn anyway?


That's the part I still don't understand.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

spdone said:


> Why are there 20 boxes in someones lawn anyway?


I have (4) trees... (6) stone pillars.. flag pole.. sign.

There are (2) boxes at each location.. (1) 12V and (1) 120V.

My shortest run of UF wire is less that 8 ft.

UF is the weakest link of any underground installation, that is why I used mostly PVC pipe going directly into PVC boxes and UF out to fixtures


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Peter D said:


> You really think you won't ever need access to those again? Never say never.  It just seems that leaving 20 buried boxes in someone's lawn has all the makings of a troubleshooting nightmare.


Having all those boxes makes troubleshooting much easier and anything added along the way is also easier.

Look at post #1.. job description, to get an idea of what was installed.

Say if customer wants to add GFI outlets for each tree on front lawn.. the power is already there and just need a 3 ft. piece of UF, 24" of 2" PVC, T-ll box, and 2" slip fitter. No grass to dig up :thumbsup:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> Having all those boxes makes troubleshooting much easier and anything added along the way is also easier.


The fact that they are under grass is a code violation. And should a fault occur you will have to spend a lot of time locating and unearthing each box. If they were visible and accessible you would not have that problem. :thumbsup:

Like the others, I agree that the Quazite "flower pot" style box is the way to go.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Peter D said:


> The fact that they are under grass is a code violation. And should a fault occur you will have to spend a lot of time locating and unearthing each box. If they were visible and accessible you would not have that problem. :thumbsup:
> 
> Like the others, I agree that the Quazite "flower pot" style box is the way to go.


 
Another option would be to mount bell boxes on nearby structures, above grade, as concealed as possible. I see a building, as well as a stone wall that a prime candidates.


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## JayH (Nov 13, 2009)

Peter D said:


> The fact that they are under grass is a code violation. And should a fault occur you will have to spend a lot of time locating and unearthing each box. If they were visible and accessible you would not have that problem. :thumbsup:
> 
> Like the others, I agree that the Quazite "flower pot" style box is the way to go.


After re-reading 314.29 I would have to agree this is a code violation if the boxes are covered with grass. The exception to 314.29 only allows for gravel, light aggregate, or non cohesive granulated soil.

Grass meets none of those criteria.


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## Grimlock (Aug 4, 2009)

Wow, this thread exploded to over 100 posts in just a day! You are a popular guy Black4Truck.

I personally despise those PVC boxes, because of a few bad experiences. I think if they are to be used they should be embedded no more than halfway into the soil, that’s just my own opinion though, so they can't be buried by others.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

JayH said:


> After re-reading 314.29 I would have to agree this is a code violation if the boxes are covered with grass. The exception to 314.29 only allows for gravel, light aggregate, or non cohesive granulated soil.
> 
> Grass meets none of those criteria.


 
*314.29 Boxes, Conduit Bodies, and Handhole Enclosures
to Be Accessible. ​*​​​​Boxes, conduit bodies, and handhole
enclosures shall be installed so that the wiring contained​
in them can be rendered accessible without removing
any part of the building or, in underground circuits, without
excavating sidewalks, paving, earth, or other substance that​is to be used to establish the finished grade.

As I have said in the past.. grass is not used to determine finished grade.. dirt is.

If you a building with height restrictions, are you going to measure from top of grass blades or from soil??


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Black4Truck said:


> *​​​​​*
> 
> As I have said in the past.. grass is not used to determine finished grade.. dirt is.
> ​





And as I have asked before, how does grass grow if there's no dirt UNDER it?​


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

480sparky said:


> And as I have asked before, how does grass grow if there's no dirt UNDER it?
> [/left]


 
That is not the question here.

If customer wants light fixture 80" off grade where are you measuring from?

You stick the ruler into the ground till it stops moving.. that is dirt or grade.

You don't measure from top of grass. 

From 314.29

or other substance that is to be used to establish the finished grade.

I take that to mean paver stones, blacktop or gravel.. not grass


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> That is not the question here.
> 
> If customer wants light fixture 80" off grade where are you measuring from?
> 
> ...


Again, you are rationalizing.


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Peter D said:


> Again, you are rationalizing.


Is that a step up from having a debased mind :laughing:


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Black4Truck said:


> That is not the question here.
> ............


Yes it is.

You say there is _nothing but grass_ on top of these boxes.

_*How does grass grow with nothing but PVC under it?*_

If I take some grass seed and spread it on a PVC box, will it take root and grow?

There HAS to be soil under it. Soil means dirt, earth, ground.

I'm no botanist or horticulturist, but this is just common sense.


----------



## Mastertorturer (Jan 28, 2009)

electricalperson said:


> i want to learn how to make pvc pipe completly waterproof no matter what we do those pipes fill with water


http://www.adtechnologies.com/Hydra-Seal_S-50_Putty_Sealant.aspx

Use this sealant putty in every conduit opening in every box of your conduit run. Any time you let outside moist air into the conduit it will condense and collect in your conduits. Even if you have a "weather tight" sealed junciton box.

Also always dope the bell & inserted peice then twist after you connect them to creat a perfect seal between peices. 

If you get water in your conduit after doing this then it must be bad karma and you're a bad bad man. Shame on you.


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> Is that a step up from having a debased mind :laughing:


The general agreement has been that what you have installed is a code violation. That means you have one of two options: Admit that the buried boxes you have installed is an NEC violation, or continue to rationalize your way out it being an NEC violation.


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Peter D said:


> Again, you are rationalizing.


Seriously.. it does not say grass and the most common substance that would cover any underground wiring box is grass.


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> Seriously.. it does not say grass and the most common substance that would cover any underground wiring box is grass.



This is getting silly. 480 just provided an excellent rebuttal to that argument.


----------



## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

Black4Truck said:


> Seriously.. it does not say grass and the most common substance that would cover any underground wiring box is grass.


black4truck - did you get paid for this job? was the customer happy? Is this the first time you have ever violated a code? Just remember once you go hack you cant come back. :laughing:


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## JayH (Nov 13, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> *314.29 Boxes, Conduit Bodies, and Handhole Enclosures​*
> 
> *to Be Accessible. *
> Boxes, conduit bodies, and handhole
> ...




Regardless you're missing the conditions in exception that allows boxes to be covered in underground installations. Finished grade is completely outside of the argument.

Grass does not meet the criteria for the exception. End of story. Code violation.
​


----------



## I_get_shocked (Apr 6, 2009)

To the OP,

Did this project pass inspection? If so WHO CARES what people on the internet think?

Do you always take so many pictures of your work? Were you unsure during the installation as well as post install and decided to create a thread?

These guys on here pick apart any and every little thing they can. Its a constant pissing match as to who knows the most code and can find the most violations. Well unless your an inspector for the town in which the permit was pulled your code citations mean nothing


----------



## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Seriously.... even a hand hole gets buried up with mulch or whatever.


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

I_get_shocked said:


> Did this project pass inspection? If so WHO CARES what people on the internet think?


Faulty logic alert! Faulty logic alert! Just because something passes inspection does not make it code compliant.


----------



## I_get_shocked (Apr 6, 2009)

Peter D said:


> Faulty logic alert! Faulty logic alert! Just because something passes inspection does not make it code compliant.



agreed but it doesnt matter what Peter D thinks or anyone else on this board. You cannot red tag the job. You can find code violations everywhere you look


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

I_get_shocked said:


> agreed but it doesnt matter what Peter D thinks or anyone else on this board. You cannot red tag the job. You can find code violations everywhere you look


I have no idea what your point is. Black4Truck asked for an opinion about his job. We gave him one and generally everybody agrees that _purposely_ burying junction boxes is a code violation.


----------



## I_get_shocked (Apr 6, 2009)

Peter D said:


> I have no idea what your point is. Black4Truck asked for an opinion about his job. We gave him one and generally everybody agrees that _purposely_ burying junction boxes is a code violation.



my point is to get a life, and move on!! This board can find hackery in the best work. As long as he passed inspection move on with life. It sounds like he was unsure of himself from the get go and pics to prove it


----------



## JayH (Nov 13, 2009)

I_get_shocked said:


> agreed but it doesnt matter what Peter D thinks or anyone else on this board. You cannot red tag the job. You can find code violations everywhere you look


This forum qualifies as a peer group. 

Please review the definition of peer.


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

I_get_shocked said:


> To the OP,
> 
> Did this project pass inspection? If so WHO CARES what people on the internet think?
> 
> ...


I don't have a problem with that.. I asked for it


----------



## Mountain Electrician (Jan 22, 2007)

Someone seems to have a problem admitting they are wrong. 

This is obviously a code violation. Not a huge deal, certainly nothing that would qualify you as a hack in my book, but a code violation nonetheless. If you are looking for someone to tell you it isn't, don't look here.


Like nolabama said, did you get paid? Is the customer happy? Seems safe enough to me, but still a code violation. 

I violated the code yesterday...put a used CH 100A breaker in a Sylvania meter pack. Not my first choice, but as it was 10 degrees below and the breaker fed an electric storage heat panel and with no direct replacement within 150 miles, I figured it was better to violate the code than let the condo freeze. At least I assume the CH breaker isn't listed for the Sylvania panel. At the end of the day, I don't really care...the job is done and the customer is happy. Does that make me a hack? I didn't do anything unsafe nor was I cutting corners in order to line my pockets with more money. In fact, the customer supplied the breaker. 

The point is, a hack (IMO) is an unqualified, unlicensed, uninsured individual who performs substandard work with no regard for safety or craftsmanship. I've read enough of your posts to realize that isn't you. 

Having said that, your installation is not code-compliant, and no amount of arguing on your part will change that.


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Peter D said:


> I have no idea what your point is. Black4Truck asked for an opinion about his job. We gave him one and generally everybody agrees that _purposely_ burying junction boxes is a code violation.


 
The majority is not everybody and I still say it is code compliant :thumbup:


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## Mountain Electrician (Jan 22, 2007)

Black4Truck said:


> The majority is not everybody and I still say it is code compliant :thumbup:



:laughing::laughing: I like a man who doesn't let facts get in the way!!:laughing::laughing:


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> The majority is not everybody and I still say it is code compliant :thumbup:


Yes, using very tortured logic you can convince yourself it's code compliant. You asked for code references and they were given. The burden is now on you to prove it's _not_ a violation, and so far you have not been able to do that.


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Peter D said:


> Yes, using very tortured logic you can convince yourself it's code compliant. You asked for code references and they were given. The burden is now on you to prove it's _not_ a violation, and so far you have not been able to do that.


I'm working on it..


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> I'm working on it..


Hey, if you don't want to admit, or can't admit, you're wrong, fine with me. Yes, even myself aka Mr. Perfection has been wrong before. I just can't remember when.


----------



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> WHAT CODE REFERENCE ARE YOU USING TO MAKE THIS STATEMENT
> 
> 
> I used PVC boxes, UF, and THHN/THWN wire for all of the above.
> ...


That is a NEMA 4X box, not designed or listed for direct burial.



> NEMA 4 – Enclosures constructed for either indoor or outdoor use to provide a degree of protection to personnel against incidental contact with the enclosed equipment; to provide a degree of protection against falling dirt, rain, sleet, snow, windblown dust, splashing water, and hose-directed water; and that will be undamaged by the external formation of ice on the enclosure.
> 
> 
> NEMA 4X – Same as NEMA 4 including protection against corrosion.


If it was for direct burial it would say for direct burial

That makes it a 110.3(B) violation plain and simple.

You do realize you can get paint can sized handhole with the required listing and marking (It has to say "Electric" on the cover) for short money?


----------



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Oh and 314.29 prohibits covering the boxes with sod, if it was a listed hand hole you could cover it with loose aggregate but not sod.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> That is a NEMA 4X box, not designed or listed for direct burial.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
This link says it is 6P and rated for direct burial :blink:

http://www.carlon.com/Master Catalog/Junction_Boxes_Brochure.pdf



No.. I did not know about those boxes


----------



## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Black4Truck said:


> This link says it is 6P and rated for direct burial :blink:
> 
> http://www.carlon.com/Master Catalog/Junction_Boxes_Brochure.pdf
> 
> ...



I'm so fortunate to have worked for 1 really, really good EC because I learned so much while I worked there and it was with them that we installed those hand holes. Before that I didn't know wth a hand hole was either.


----------



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> This link says it is 6P and rated for direct burial :blink:
> 
> http://www.carlon.com/Master Catalog/Junction_Boxes_Brochure.pdf


Well I would not have thought 6P would be rated for DB either but I am not going to argue with Carlon.:no:


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> Oh and 314.29 prohibits covering the boxes with sod, if it was a listed hand hole you could cover it with loose aggregate but not sod.


This is a sticking point with me.. it does not say grass or sod.

It says "finished grade" and to me that means dirt

* 
314.29 Boxes, Conduit Bodies, and Handhole Enclosures
to Be Accessible. ​*​​​​Boxes, conduit bodies, and handhole
enclosures shall be installed so that the wiring contained​
in them can be rendered accessible without removing
any part of the building or, in underground circuits, without
excavating sidewalks, paving, *earth, or other substance that*​*is to be used to establish the finished grade.*

As stated before by me, when measuring the height of a structure you measure from finish grade (dirt).. not from top of grass blades.

I am not removing anything that was used to establish finished grade


----------



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> This is a sticking point with me.. it does not say grass or sod.
> 
> It says "finished grade" and to me that means dirt
> 
> ...


I think you're being a hack, it is obvious as a block of cheese that the idea is that it has to be visible or what is covering it has to be marked.

How do you grow grass on the box without putting dirt on the box?


You asked us to be the judge and if i was an inspector I would red tag this.


----------



## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

Peter D said:


> Faulty logic alert! Faulty logic alert! Just because something passes inspection does not make it code compliant.



AHJ has final say so. If they say its code compliant its code compliant.


----------



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

nolabama said:


> AHJ has final say so. If they say its code compliant its code compliant.


No, that is absolutely not true.

An AHJ can make written, properly processed amendments to the NEC but they can not change the law at will anymore then a cop can (well anymore then a cop is legally allowed to)

If an AHJ lets an EC slide on a violation you do realize that the EC is still and always will be on the hook for that violation if the stuff ever hits the fan.


----------



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> This is a sticking point with me.. it does not say grass or sod.
> 
> It says "finished grade" and to me that means dirt
> 
> ...





You're not using the listed fittings, rather drilling a hole in the back. So that makes you in violation.​


----------



## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> How do you grow grass on the box without putting dirt on the box?
> 
> .


 
ch - ch - ch - chia


----------



## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

Bob Badger said:


> No, that is absolutely not true.
> 
> An AHJ can make written, properly processed amendments to the NEC but they can not change the law at will anymore then a cop can (well anymore then a cop is legally allowed to)
> 
> If an AHJ lets an EC slide on a violation you do realize that the EC is still and always will be on the hook for that violation if the stuff ever hits the fan.


So if my AHJ adopts something that is a violation of code and chooses to not enforce it then I am responsible???


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

nolabama said:


> So if my AHJ adopts something that is a violation of code and chooses to not enforce it then I am responsible???


Yes.


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

The inspection department is completely absolved of any and all liability???


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> You're not using the listed fittings, rather drilling a hole in the back. So that makes you in violation.
> [/left]


Your right.. I should of used a water tight compression connector for the UF


----------



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

nolabama said:


> So if my AHJ adopts something that is a violation of code and chooses to not enforce it then I am responsible???



If the AHJ 'adopts' a legally made amendment then no you are not on the hook.

If the AHJ simply chooses to ignore a requirement and lets you pass you are indeed always responsible for that violation.

Also keep in mind AHJs and inspectors have very limited exposure to law suits while you and I do not.


----------



## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

Humph, I learned something today.


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

nolabama said:


> Humph, I learned something today.


When you start on the 'jects?


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> Your right.. I should of used a water tight compression connector for the UF


The point being is that the "flower pot" handholes are made with an open bottom so the water cannot collect. I wouldn't be surprised if those Carlon boxes are totally submerged.


----------



## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

Peter D said:


> The point being is that the "flower pot" handholes are made with an open bottom so the water cannot collect. I wouldn't be surprised if those Carlon boxes are totally submerged.


He drilled a hole at the bottom.


----------



## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

NolaTigaBait said:


> When you start on the 'jects?


P.J.'s brother P.J.'s - should be second week of the new year. Piles are in and dirt work is complete and they dont move slow. I asked if I could get in on the underground but apparently their is not enough. Its for E-1 (Eugene Lawernce - I could take a picture of the circle food store temp power pole and get everyone off of Black4trucks case quick)


----------



## cdnelectrician (Mar 14, 2008)

I have a question, why is the PVC solvent blue?


----------



## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

> Also keep in mind AHJs and inspectors have very limited exposure to law suits while you and I do not.


Correct, it is called governmental immunity.

An AHJ or inspector never takes on the liability of the electrical contractor.

The electrical contractor is liable for any and all violations of the adopted code whether or not they pass an inspection.

Also there is no time limit on liability for an electridcal code violation. 

If there is an issue 20 years down the road with an installation that was not installed to the code at the time the contractor is still liable.

Inspectors and AHJ's can be held liable for negligence (at least in Utah) for willfully allowing someone to violate an adopted code. 

Chris


----------



## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

nolabama said:


> P.J.'s brother P.J.'s - should be second week of the new year. Piles are in and dirt work is complete and they dont move slow. I asked if I could get in on the underground but apparently their is not enough. Its for E-1 (Eugene Lawernce - I could take a picture of the circle food store temp power pole and get everyone off of Black4trucks case quick)


 I think the Badger would have a heart attack if he saw the work here:laughing:


----------



## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

Peter D said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if those Carlon boxes are totally submerged.


 
I have see that before.

Chris


----------



## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

NolaTigaBait said:


> I think the Badger would have a heart attack if he saw the work here:laughing:



You have to had seen this pole. Its got PVC strung from the top to inside the building, aprx 15 ft, with no supports and romex in it (you can see it because the fittings are broke in a spot or two) makes me laugh every evening.


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

NolaTigaBait said:


> He drilled a hole at the bottom.


Yes, but they still have dirt under them, not gravel. I would imagine it takes them a while to drain out after heavy rain.


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

cdnelectrician said:


> I have a question, why is the PVC solvent blue?


He's either using primer or it's the solvent that the pool companies use on their plumbing. They are the only ones I have ever seen that use blue solvent.


----------



## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

Peter D said:


> Yes, but they still have dirt under them, not gravel. I would imagine it takes them a while to drain out after heavy rain.


:sleep1:


----------



## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

NolaTigaBait said:


> I think the Badger would have a heart attack if he saw the work here:laughing:


If we did a job as clean as this hacked up landscape job posted here, we would get an atta boy from the inspector for sure.


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

NolaTigaBait said:


> :sleep1:


I love seeing one my creations in action. :thumbup:


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Peter D said:


> Yes, but they still have dirt under them, not gravel. I would imagine it takes them a while to drain out after heavy rain.


The top is sealed.. water is not going to leak in that way.


----------



## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

Peter D said:


> I love seeing one my creations in action. :thumbup:


I created this...thank you very much:sleep1:


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

NolaTigaBait said:


> I created this...thank you very much:sleep1:


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Peter D said:


> He's either using primer or it's the solvent that the pool companies use on their plumbing. They are the only ones I have ever seen that use blue solvent.


I ran out and got a can from the sprinkler guy.. I always use clear


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> The top is sealed.. water is not going to leak in that way.


:sleep1:


Errr...I mean...I don't have that much faith in one of those boxes to keep water out, especially directly buried with a hole in the back.


----------



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

NolaTigaBait said:


> I think the Badger would have a heart attack if he saw the work here:laughing:


Maybe, but then again if I make the trip to New Orleans I will not be interested in looking at electrical stuff.

Bring me to the food, drinks and girls in no particular order. (Of course I can only touch two out of three of those.)


----------



## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

Bob Badger said:


> Maybe, but then again if I make the trip to New Orleans I will not be interested in looking at electrical stuff.
> 
> Bring me to the food, drinks and girls in no particular order. (Of course I can only touch two out of three of those.)


You ever been here?


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Peter D said:


> :sleep1:
> 
> 
> Errr...I mean...I don't have that much faith in one of those boxes to keep water out, especially directly buried with a hole in the back.


The thing is these boxes work just fine.. and the hole is in the bottom where I should of used a water tight compression connector for UF


----------



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

NolaTigaBait said:


> You ever been here?


Negative, only been down south as far as Virginia.


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> The thing is these boxes work just fine.. and the hole is in the bottom where I should of used a water tight compression connector for UF


A box in the ground, no matter how well you can seal it, is going to end up with water in it. Might as well use something that's going to allow it to drain quickly rather than collect - like the "flower pot."


----------



## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

Bob Badger said:


> Negative, only been down south as far as Virginia.


You need to come down for carnival season. You'd have a great time.


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Peter D said:


> A box in the ground, no matter how well you can seal it, is going to end up with water in it. Might as well use something that's going to allow it to drain quickly rather than collect - like the "flower pot."


Is a flower pot a UL listed box?

I have never seen them around here.. probably all buried under grass :whistling2:


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> Is a flower pot a UL listed box?
> 
> I have never seen them around here.. probably all buried under grass :whistling2:



:laughing:

In this area they often get buried in bark mulch by the landscapers.


6"
http://www.carsonind.com/PDF/Util_Infra/L_708.pdf

10"
http://www.carsonind.com/PDF/Util_Infra/L_910.pdf


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## JayH (Nov 13, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> This is a sticking point with me.. it does not say grass or sod.
> 
> It says "finished grade" and to me that means dirt
> 
> ...




You keep avoiding the exception that allows for your box to be concealed below grade and how your installation is in violation of that exception.

I'm beginning to lean toward hack because of your refusal to see the violation aside from the neatness of the installation.
​


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## cobra50 (Aug 12, 2009)

Hey Black....Coming from X-Long Islander we use to do the install the same way and we really never stopped the water from shorted out the splices. But i like giving the HO a lay-out drawing of the install...not a hack:thumbsup:


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Even handholes can fill up if not installed properly. 










I did not cut any of those, many just burned away from sitting in that water. :jester:


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## JayH (Nov 13, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> Even handholes can fill up if not installed properly.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Especially if installed in an irrigated landscape area, such as say...oh, I don't know...maybe a yard with sod installed.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

NolaTigaBait said:


> You ever been here?


I've been to NOLA for about an hour or two. We had liberty one night while briefly stationed in Gulfport, Ms., and we drove there during a bar hopping venture. Imagine that, a bunch of Navy guys spending all their liberty out getting bombed. :laughing:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

cobra50 said:


> Hey Black....Coming from X-Long Islander we use to do the install the same way and we really never stopped the water from shorted out the splices. But i like giving the HO a lay-out drawing of the install...not a hack:thumbsup:


You just needed to Scotchcote the wires and fill up the wire nut with it 

Water has never caused me any grief.. only posting the pics on Internet Forum :laughing:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

JayH said:


> You keep avoiding the exception that allows for your box to be concealed below grade and how your installation is in violation of that exception.
> 
> I'm beginning to lean toward hack because of your refusal to see the violation aside from the neatness of the installation.
> 
> [/left]


 
_Exception: Listed boxes and handhole enclosures shall be_
_permitted where covered by gravel, light aggregate, or noncohesive_
_granulated soil if their location is effectively identified_​_and accessible for excavation._

I'm just going to kill the grass and plant some pea gravel :laughing:


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

There you geaux. End of story.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

NolaTigaBait said:


> There you *geaux*. End of story.


Must be an LSU fan. 

:sleep1:


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

Peter D said:


> Must be an LSU fan.
> 
> :sleep1:


Gee, whatever gave you that idea. I thought the Tiger Bait moniker would give it away.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Peter D said:


> I love my can of Scotchkote
> 
> :sleep1:


Good to see your finally starting to see the dirt through the grass :laughing:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> Good to see your finally starting to see the dirt through the grass :laughing:


:blink:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

NolaTigaBait said:


> Gee, whatever gave you that idea. I thought the Tiger Bait moniker would give it away.


Yeah, that must have been it. :wacko:


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## rdr (Oct 25, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> Maybe, but then again if I make the trip to New Orleans I will not be interested in looking at electrical stuff.
> 
> Bring me to the food, drinks and girls in no particular order. (Of course I can only touch two out of three of those.)


Girls and the drink? :laughing:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Thread title: *Am I a hack.. YOU be the judge.. *

Poll results on other thread so far:

Hack : 20
Not Hack : 7
Don't Know : 0

3:1 in favor of being a hack. We have judged.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Thread title: *Am I a hack.. YOU be the judge.. *
> 
> Poll results on other thread so far:
> 
> ...


:drink::drink::hang:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Black4Truck said:


> :drink::hang:


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## htneighbors (Jan 23, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> Good to see your finally starting to see the dirt through the grass :laughing:


I KNEW there was dirt under the grass!


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## ampman (Apr 2, 2009)

in a poll new york was the least happist state in the union probally because their low volt lights don't work :laughing:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

ampman said:


> in a poll new york was the least happist state in the union probally because their low volt lights don't work :laughing:


:laughing:


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## electricalperson (Jan 11, 2008)

Peter D said:


> The point being is that the "flower pot" handholes are made with an open bottom so the water cannot collect. I wouldn't be surprised if those Carlon boxes are totally submerged.


ill bet my unemployment check that those boxes will fill with water in no time. ive seen exact installations like this and those boxes were completly filled.


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## electricalperson (Jan 11, 2008)

replace the boxes with flower pots and keep the low voltage seperate from the high voltage and you wont be a hack anymore 

edit: actually i dont believe you need to keep the 12v seperate from the high volts. just as long as its not communication wiring or anything like that


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## egads (Sep 1, 2009)

Ok, I confess to using these boxes. There may even be one under some grass by a tennis court at a place I know....

However, out here in CA, UF cable is just not used. So I had conduit and used this adapter they make to glue onto those boxes: (page 3, item E996)

http://www.carlon.com/Master Catalog/Conduit_Fittings_Schedule_40_and_80.pdf

You glue the adapter into a slip or threaded coupling. One could even screw a liquid tight coupling into a treaded 
coupling for UF. One does need to go into the bottom of the box when using pvc conduit because it would sweep up to the box from 18" cover. 

On that same job I also used a "Flower Pot" to make a 90 bend in a long pull to a sub panel. Using it as a box. Open at the bottom, clean and dry to this day, but I have often wondered if it was code compliant. Just how much of a hack does that make me?


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Black4Truck said:


> Thanks for the info :thumbsup:
> 
> 
> A Christy box would not of been as good as a PVC box with multiple pipes entering into it.
> ...


 
I see this same set up all the time. Always see regular wire nuts in them and they pass them here. Yes I have found water in them and some corrosion but never had a problem with them. I do have a problem with the boxes not being visable or having a cover over them though. Everything else I've seen done (never seen the scotchkote but it cant hurt) here and pass inspection.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

​


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

480sparky said:


>


:laughing::thumbup::thumbup::laughing:


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

480sparky said:


>


I had to put my 2 cents in :whistling2::laughing:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> I had to put my 2 cents in :whistling2::laughing:


It will give us something to talk about :whistling2:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)




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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Black4Truck said:


> It will give us something to talk about :whistling2:


 
Beats talking about the Unions!:laughing:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Yes, you're still a hack. Nothing has changed. :thumbsup:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Peter D said:


> Yes, you're still a hack. Nothing has changed. :thumbsup:


Why would anything change here


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

I wish this thread was covered in schotchoat so it would STFU.

~Matt


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Peter D said:


> Yes, you're still a hack. Nothing has changed. :thumbsup:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

TOOL_5150 said:


> I wish this thread was covered in schotchoat so it would STFU.
> 
> ~Matt


 
Bob Badger is working on a button for that


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Black4Truck said:


> Bob Badger is working on a button for that



Will this work?


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

Black4Truck said:


> Bob Badger is working on a button for that


I believe its allready avalible, but only to mods.

~Matt


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## idontknow (Jul 18, 2009)

TOOL_5150 said:


> I wish this thread was covered in schotchoat so it would STFU.
> 
> ~Matt


That use is not listed on the can. 

Sorry, can't be done.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

idontknow said:


> That use is not listed on the can.
> 
> Sorry, can't be done.


orrly?
:laughing:


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## idontknow (Jul 18, 2009)

Rudeboy said:


> orrly?
> :laughing:


rly rly


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## gmbjr (Mar 25, 2010)

seems fine to me. noting the jb locations can be handy for retrofit purposes..I mark everything on my blueprints at work.


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