# I've got no clue



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

But I will look into it...:whistling2::laughing:

I have a customer that wants to install Electric Heat on his roof top gutter and down spouts on the drive way side of his house because the downspouts freeze and then water leaks out and freezes on his driveway,So I know I need some sort of a heat tape system.

Any ideas on what I will need ,,Links?

And yes I know I'll need an Electrician...:laughing::laughing:


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## stuiec (Sep 25, 2010)

Here's one of many. Google "gutter heat trace" and take a gander. Its pretty straight forward stuff. 

http://www.heatersplus.com/easyheat.html


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

stuiec said:


> Here's one of many. Google "gutter heat trace" and take a gander. Its pretty straight forward stuff.
> 
> http://www.heatersplus.com/easyheat.html


Good man....:thumbup:


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

HARRY304E said:


> But I will look into it...:whistling2::laughing:
> 
> I have a customer that wants to install Electric Heat on his roof top gutter and down spouts on the drive way side of his house because the downspouts freeze and then water leaks out and freezes on his driveway,So I know I need some sort of a heat tape system.
> 
> ...


Easy Heat SR51


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

I was hoping some of the Florida guys would chime in this...:whistling2::laughing:

Thanks gents..:thumbup:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

30 kiloton thermonuclear devices work best for me. :laughing:


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## Auselect (Dec 2, 2011)

I've used the Danfoss line called RX, installed about 60 of them in the past two years with no complaints.
They have a measurement tool that will help you work out the length you need, just go bigger then they suggest, the "V" pattern ends up being much longer then they suggest.
Much sure you install it as they recommend and you should be good to go....

http://www.danfoss.com/North_Americ...ial/ce60ddc9-8d79-41a3-bb3e-79bbd36107da.html


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

480sparky said:


> 30 kiloton thermonuclear devices work best for me. :laughing:


I've got to get me some of those,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Nice..:laughing:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Auselect said:


> I've used the Danfoss line called RX, installed about 60 of them in the past two years with no complaints.
> They have a measurement tool that will help you work out the length you need, just go bigger then they suggest, the "V" pattern ends up being much longer then they suggest.
> Much sure you install it as they recommend and you should be good to go....
> 
> http://www.danfoss.com/North_Americ...ial/ce60ddc9-8d79-41a3-bb3e-79bbd36107da.html


Good man.........:thumbsup:


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

This explains it:

http://www.emersonindustrial.com/en...ntrols/11629_001_r5_ADKS_ownersmanual_web.pdf

This is for the EasyHeat residential plug-in stuff but, if you want hard wired, go with the SR51J like the other guy said.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

99cents said:


> This explains it:
> 
> http://www.emersonindustrial.com/en...ntrols/11629_001_r5_ADKS_ownersmanual_web.pdf
> 
> This is for the EasyHeat residential plug-in stuff but, if you want hard wired, go with the SR51J like the other guy said.


Thanks 99,,,,,,Good man.:thumbsup:


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Just make sure you get self regulated heat tape that rated for that kind of useage.

I used either verison and they work very well but just don't get one with single thermosat sensor at all ( they are pretty much worthless merde anyway.)

Merci,
Marc


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Don't forget GFP or GFCI.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

BBQ said:


> Don't forget GFP or GFCI.


 
Hey BBQ man.,

Hate to pick on your brain for a moment do the GFCI and GFP do cover all voltage level? ( keep in your mind that included the commercal side ) 

Over here in France it have to be mantory RCD reguardless of voltage we used.

Merci,
Marc


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Our code requires GFP for all heat trace regardless of voltage. 

Many people find it easier to use GFCIs and that is acceptable too.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

BBQ said:


> Our code requires GFP for all heat trace regardless of voltage.
> 
> Many people find it easier to use GFCIs and that is acceptable too.


Fair enough with that subject and I think it pretty much standarized all over the places. ( I did check the UK verison and it is on the same page as we are. )

Merci,
Marc


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Here are the sections that apply



> *ARTICLE 426
> Fixed Outdoor Electric Deicing and
> Snow-Melting Equipment*





> *426.1 Scope.* The requirements of this article shall apply to
> electrically energized heating systems and the installation
> of these systems.





> *426.28 Ground-Fault Protection of Equipment.* Groundfault
> protection of equipment shall be provided for fixed
> outdoor electric deicing and snow-melting equipment.




From Article 100


> *Ground-Fault Protection of Equipment.* A system intended
> to provide protection of equipment from damaging
> line-to-ground fault currents by operating to cause a disconnecting
> means to open all ungrounded conductors of the
> ...


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Interesting that GFPE, which provides a lesser level of protection (30ma?) , is so much more expensive than GFCI 5ma variety....at least here.....

Question...what were Afci's GF rating? thought it was 30ma....?

~CS~


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

chicken steve said:


> Interesting that GFPE, which provides a lesser level of protection (30ma?) , is so much more expensive than GFCI 5ma variety....at least here.....



Supply / demand / because they can.




> Question...what were Afci's GF rating? thought it was 30ma....?


Irrelevant, not listed for ground fault protection and some brands do not have any GFP function at all.


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## Chris Kennedy (Nov 19, 2007)

HARRY304E said:


> I was hoping some of the Florida guys would chime in this...:whistling2::laughing:


Chime.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Chris Kennedy said:


> Chime.


So Chris, what kind of clips do you use when installing your roof de-icing heat trace?


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## Chris Kennedy (Nov 19, 2007)

BBQ said:


> So Chris, what kind of clips do you use when installing your roof de-icing heat trace?


I only use the manufacture supplied clips to be 110.3(B) compliant. (They never give you enough of them)


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Chris Kennedy said:


> I only use the manufacture supplied clips to be 110.3(B) compliant. (They never give you enough of them)


:thumbup::thumbup:

For those of you that are in fact low temperature deprived here is what Harry is asking about.

On the roof, in the gutter and in the down spouts.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Harry, be careful with your watts. 5W Self Reg can put out 6 to 7 watts if it gets cold enough. The residential self limiting cables are constant at 5W (ADKS).


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## Auselect (Dec 2, 2011)

BBQ said:


> :thumbup::thumbup:
> 
> For those of you that are in fact low temperature deprived here is what Harry is asking about.
> 
> On the roof, in the gutter and in the down spouts.


I would not install it this way....I can't see this install working that well, where the shingle clip is connected at the gutter, there is about a two inch gap. I would flip the shingle clip 180 and have heat trace loop over the edge of the gutter and the shingle clip can slip up under the shingle, this way the heat is out over the gutter.


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## Auselect (Dec 2, 2011)

BBQ said:


> :thumbup::thumbup:
> 
> For those of you that are in fact low temperature deprived here is what Harry is asking about.
> 
> On the roof, in the gutter and in the down spouts.


I just looked again, the drawing shows the way I suggested with the loop, the actual install is what I was commenting on.....was that one of yours BBQ? How's it working?


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Auselect said:


> I just looked again, the drawing shows the way I suggested with the loop, the actual install is what I was commenting on.....was that one of yours BBQ? How's it working?


It was a picture on the internet.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

The installation in the photo is okay. You don't want the cable touching itself. With Self Reg you can create cold spots at the overlap. I guess if the loops are up and out of the way, that would work too.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)




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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Auselect said:


> I would not install it this way....I can't see this install working that well, where the shingle clip is connected at the gutter, there is about a two inch gap. I would flip the shingle clip 180 and have heat trace loop over the edge of the gutter and the shingle clip can slip up under the shingle, this way the heat is out over the gutter.


That pic is definitely wrong. There is a specific clip that you would use where the loop would overhang down into the gutter and the cable in the gutter would hang off the clip that is connected to the the end of the loop.


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## butcher733 (Aug 4, 2012)

Doesnt that pic show heaters in the gutter too? I think that the install is good if they are in the gutter also.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

butcher733 said:


> Doesnt that pic show heaters in the gutter too? I think that the install is good if they are in the gutter also.


The top pic is correct, with the loop down into the gutter, the bottom installation isn't. Although the top one is actually an exaggeration. They'll only melt in the immediate area of the cable not as much as is shown there.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

electricmanscott said:


>


This guy is customer #1,,,There is no ,NO in his case..:laughing::thumbup:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

butcher733 said:


> Doesnt that pic show heaters in the gutter too? I think that the install is good if they are in the gutter also.


Yup they've got the gutter and the downspout's ,The water is freezing in the downspout's and leaking on to the driveway instead of going onto the lawn.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

butcher733 said:


> Doesnt that pic show heaters in the gutter too? I think that the install is good if they are in the gutter also.


That's what that looks like,and I will need to do that to keep the water off of the driveway.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

I'm thinking that if I just run the cable in the gutter and snake it down the downspout's that should fix the problem.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

HARRY304E said:


> This guy is customer #1,,,There is no ,NO in his case..:laughing::thumbup:


Sub it out. I'm not joking. This work BLOWS and the liability is ridiculous. I've done a few for my #1 and after the last one I said no more, not doing it ever again. They understand. 

I have to go back to one in Dover from two years ago because one section isn't melting properly. 


This guy will do it. He's a friend of mine. 

http://www.maplegutters.com/boston_seamless_gutters.nxg


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

The EasyHeat clip has a hook on both ends and is scored in the middle. We attach one hook to the cable in the trough and the other hook to the bottom of the zig-zag. For the top of the zig-zag we break the hook in the middle and put the flat end under the shingle. There is a tooth in the clip that holds it in place.

In the photo, it looks like they're depending on the clip tooth to hold the cable in place at the bottom of the zig-zag. I don't know how long that will stay in place long term.

The reason the clip is attached to the cable in the trough is to avoid penetration of the roofing to hold a clip down with a fastener. 

I hope this description makes sense


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HARRY304E said:


> I'm thinking that if I just run the cable in the gutter and snake it down the downspout's that should fix the problem.


Some guys only do the troughs and gutters. Sometimes it works. The zig-zag definitely helps prevent icicles.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

electricmanscott said:


> Sub it out. I'm not joking. This work BLOWS and the liability is ridiculous. I've done a few for my #1 and after the last one I said no more, not doing it ever again. They understand.
> 
> I have to go back to one in Dover from two years ago because one section isn't melting properly.
> 
> ...


Thanks Scott I will give it some thought.

He may not want to spend the money once I come up with a price for the job ,,,,Price it high..:laughing:


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## Auselect (Dec 2, 2011)

I don't think the install would work that well, the water would run down to the bottom of the V then start to freeze until the ice dam grows large enough to touch the heat cable in the bottom of the gutter.
If you over lap the fascia,(it's easily done and it doesn't touch or cross itself) then the water should, therocedically, drop into the gutter where it warm all the way to the end of the downspout, leave a loop at the end and you can deal with the ice build up at ground level

I found a photo of a job that it did that shows it working....ignore the big ice dam on the back...if your curious why, there was another roof 3' below the valley which is causing the build up, it won't come back onto the top roof because of the cable but come Spring I am going to have to install another length to get it off the lower roof.


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## Awg-Dawg (Jan 23, 2007)

electricmanscott said:


> The top pic is correct, with the loop down into the gutter, the bottom installation isn't.


 

I put one on my house this year.

I installed it like the bottom picture.

It made the damming worse.:laughing:


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## Auselect (Dec 2, 2011)

HARRY304E said:


> Thanks Scott I will give it some thought.
> 
> He may not want to spend the money once I come up with a price for the job ,,,,Price it high..:laughing:


I didn't find the work that bad, def a two man job on two extension ladders (if it's a two story)
I priced it by so much per liner run and so much per liner ft on the zig zag, obviously a bit more. You can't do the shingle work in the Winter, you need to put it under the shingles and you want a few days of sun to reseal the tar you lift up.
I was doing about 250' in 4 hours including switch and GFI added to an existing circuit. 1 job was a unit apartment complex, the issue was on each unit rear patio, about 10' x 15', did two a day and made great $.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Auselect said:


> I didn't find the work that bad, def a two man job on two extension ladders (if it's a two story)
> I priced it by so much per liner run and so much per liner ft on the zig zag, obviously a bit more. You can't do the shingle work in the Winter, you need to put it under the shingles and you want a few days of sun to reseal the tar you lift up.
> I was doing about 250' in 4 hours including switch and GFI added to an existing circuit. 1 job was a unit apartment complex, the issue was on each unit rear patio, about 10' x 15', did two a day and made great $.


That is something to think about regarding the shingles because it is on the north side of the house so there is no sun at all there.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Awg-Dawg said:


> I put one on my house this year.
> 
> I installed it like the bottom picture.
> 
> It made the damming worse.:laughing:


Great, just what I need...:laughing:


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## Auselect (Dec 2, 2011)

HARRY304E said:


> That is something to think about regarding the shingles because it is on the north side of the house so there is no sun at all there.


Trying to lift those shingles in the winter your more then likely going to crack or rip them, then your screwed.....


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Auselect said:


> Trying to lift those shingles in the winter your more then likely going to crack or rip them, then your screwed.....


Yup not a good idea.


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