# Permitted is permitted and Not is not



## J.B. (Aug 15, 2019)

I’m going to try my best to not be partial to either side here, but here are the pieces of the equation and you guys are the pros. Apparently I am not. Per the county inspector that has been dragging out passing an inspection for 3 days with no code references from his out of date code book. Yep,’the code violation was “you can’t put Romex in a Church”. And it was said just those exact words along with some other belittling statements about the “electrician”. All and all a pretty ugly voicemail left to the best GC I have ever worked for. I can not change what’s in black and white in my “current” NEC. And I understand that there are opinions, but that’s not what I’m asking for. Some say “I would never use Romex on a commercial job”, but the house they sleep in each night is full of it. I’m looking for the same references that have been presented to the county inspector that said “ I’m sorry, I don’t interpret it that way”. The two things I had to keep in mind on this job were staying in the customers budget and complying with the NEC. And I think both have been met, until now. One thing I failed to mention is that the Romex has only been installed in the wood framing, none above ceilings. And I don’t want anyone thinking I’m ignorant, I’m referring to nonmetallic-sheathed cable Romex. 

Here’s what you are working with:

Specs- “all electrical wiring must comply with the latest version of the NEC”

Steel Structure with all wood framed interior walls and Acoustical time ceilings 

Classifications (classified & permitted for construction by county, not me)
Construction Type - IIIB
Hour rating proposed- n/a

Inspectors comments:
“You can’t put Romex in a Church”
(^bet ya won’t find that one in the book^)

I love being right but I’m not scared to say I’m wrong when I’m wrong. But I have a problem with ripping out thousands of dollars of wire and Labor just because an inspector says “it’s just a rule of thumb”.

Thanks in advance for your input


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Never wired a church, but I think it's forbidden in "places of assembly."


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

J.B. said:


> Inspectors comments:
> “You can’t put Romex in a Church”
> (^bet ya won’t find that one in the book^)


Well, you kind of will find that one in the book. Here's how I'd run it down with what materials I have readily available, I may be wrong. 

Article 518, Assembly Occupancies, lists "Places of religious worship" in its scope. 



> 518.4 Wiring Methods.
> 
> (B) Nonrated Construction. In addition to the wiring
> methods of 518.4(A), nonmetallic-sheathed cable, Type AC
> ...


The bold part above is the hairy part, are there parts of the building that are required to be of fire-rated construction? If you go back to Article 334, you have 



> FPN No. 1: Types of building construction and occupancy
> classifications are defined in NFPA 220-2006, Standard on
> Types of Building Construction, or the applicable building
> code, or both.


(That's clipped from the 2008 code book so you'd have to check if it's changed...) 

If you go to NFPA 220-2006 you see in the attached table 4.1.1 but it uses different names for the building construction types. The attached table cross references IBC Type III-B to NFPA Type III(200). Looking in the III(200) column, the exterior bearing walls are not zero, they have a 2 hour fire rating - they are fire rated. So, no NM in exterior bearing walls. 

Now you'd need to run through the same with up to date materials, but it would still be convoluted, which right or wrong means plenty of opportunity to lose an argument with an inspector.


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## Seau1355 (Jul 24, 2017)

If there were thousands of dollars of NM cable installed, then it sounds like there is a really good chance sealed plans needed to be submitted and approved. If your going to hang your hat on 518.4 (B) you should know which walls are required to be fire rated. The approved drawings will tell you this. If not, maybe the engineer/architect on record could identify them for you. Also, not all churches are strictly rated Assembly. Some have classrooms and can be rated A-3 and E, A-3 and B, etc.. if they meet certain requirements. So it is possible many interior walls are fire rated as well. 


Although, none of this justifies the inspectors response.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

it's a place of assembly. The rule is no. No romex inside the church proper. You can put it in the bathroom out back, but not the dining hall, cause that is probably a place of assembly also. All church interiors are required to be fire rated. It didn't help in Waco Texas in David Koresh's church though, romex or no romex, cause of all the propellent that was shot into the building from outside.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

It's the Notre Dame rule.

There, 800 year old Romex burned the whole joint down.


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## J F Go (Mar 1, 2014)

I've worked on many churches and bid on many more and never once was romex part of the scope of work.


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## DashDingo (Feb 11, 2018)

How big of a church is it?
Is it designed to allow up to 100 persons or more in a gathering location?
Chit, I’ve been in churches that only hold 50.
If the architect has allowable occupancy of 100 persons or more in area of gathering enclosed by rated walls your screwed.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Signal1 (Feb 10, 2016)

> “you can’t put Romex in a Church”


Not if it holds 100 or more people you can't. 

As soon as I read that, Article 518 "Places of Assembly" was the first thing I thought of. But then again I don't know the exact details of your project either. 

Also you mention an "out of date" code book. My first apprentice training was on the 1987 code (32 years ago), it was in the book then, and it's in the book now, 2017 being the latest edition.


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## J.B. (Aug 15, 2019)

Just to clarify some things I might have left out. This building is a separate structure from the existing church. Its Sunday school rooms and an open room. And again has been classified as type IIIB construction and fire rating is N/A. I'm not sure of the occupancy load. But from what I am interpreting from the 3 refences below is that we are in compliance because we are type 3b and fire rating was not "required by the local building code". I could have installed RMC throughout and fire caulked every wall penetration, but what's the point when the rest of the buildings components aren't rated or required to be. 

334.10(3) 
334.12(A)(5)
518.4(B)


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