# ABC vs. Union



## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

I can't believe these ABC shop owners have their guys believing that the ABC is watching out for the guys best interests.

One guy from an ABC shop told me the ABC kept his wages high so he could afford a decent home and feed his family!


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Funny. Replace _ABC_ with _Union_ and the same statement has been made in the past.


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

I'm torn between the two at the moment.

One if more of a commitment than the other so I don't know.

And commitment is different if you don't even intend on staying in the same state.


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

I can't get CBS.No Cable.


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## user5941 (Mar 16, 2009)

I am looking at membership in the IEC mainly for access to their training program that allows for apprentice wages on prevailing wage jobs


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

miller_elex said:


> I can't believe these ABC shop owners have their guys believing that the ABC is watching out for the guys best interests.
> 
> One guy from an ABC shop told me the ABC kept his wages high so he could afford a decent home and feed his family!


 
Haven't we beat this to death with the conclusion that personal choice's still work, at least for a few more years.

Not everyone that works ABC is as stupid as you seem to think.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

rewire said:


> I am looking at membership in the IEC mainly for access to their training program that allows for apprentice wages on prevailing wage jobs


This is all ABC was really setup for, at least when I was in.
The IBEW is a brotherhood and a career long commitment. Training, health and disability insurance as well a a nice retirement when the time comes.:thumbup:


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

I'm not sure why I really care under what system another man works, or the reasons why he feels compelled to do so. That's on him. Every man makes his own decisions. Some good, some bad. When tomorrow comes, we'll all be another day closer to dead anyhow.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> I'm not sure why I really care under what system another man works, or the reasons why he feels compelled to do so. That's on him. Every man makes his own decisions. Some good, some bad. When tomorrow comes, we'll all be another day closer to dead anyhow.


 
Because some think those that can't see the light of their way, are stupid and must be directed away from their chosen path, politics, religion and union.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

brian john said:


> Because some think those that can't see the light of their way, are stupid and must be directed away from their chosen path, politics, religion and union.


Unfortunately, this is exactly correct. :wallbash:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

What a bunch of losers. I always find my interests are best represented by the XYZ.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

jrannis said:


> The IBEW is a brotherhood and a career long commitment. Training, health and disability insurance as well a a nice retirement when the time comes.:thumbup:


Wonderful. My training is over, I pay for my own health insurance, and I have no plans to "retire." That word is not even in my vocabulary.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Peter D said:


> Wonderful. My training is over, I pay for my own health insurance, and I have no plans to "retire." That word is not even in my vocabulary.


 
But bad health could bring the word into use.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

brian john said:


> But bad health could bring the word into use.


Anything can happen. I'm not suggesting going without health insurance, but I'm just pointing out that most employers offer some kind of health plan these days. Since I'm semi-employed right now I'm paying my own way. 

I could always join the union but then I can be on the end of the waiting list of the guys who have already been unemployed for a year.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Peter D said:


> Anything can happen. I'm not suggesting going without health insurance, but I'm just pointing out that most employers offer some kind of health plan these days. Since I'm semi-employed right now I'm paying my own way.
> 
> I could always join the union but then I can be on the end of the waiting list of the guys who have already been unemployed for a year.


 

I understand that, my point was bad health can force a retirement.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

brian john said:


> I understand that, my point was bad health can force a retirement.


True. At any rate, I plan on working until they throw the dirt on top of me.


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

Peter D said:


> True. At any rate, I plan on working until they throw the dirt on top of me.


 
That sounds like that will have to be the plan if you haven't put any money away for the future. Sounds pretty arrogant and ignorant at the same time.


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

To cut to the chase, Union is better for the employee and Non Union is better for the employer. It doesn't get anymore black and white than that.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

brian john said:


> I understand that, my point was bad health can force a retirement.


There are other institutions, some much older than the IBEW, that are able to take care of such things too. Here's one I'm associated with.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

randomkiller said:


> That sounds like that will have to be the plan if you haven't put any money away for the future. Sounds pretty arrogant and ignorant at the same time.


Who said anything about not saving money for the future? I just don't need a union retirement plan, or any other organization for that matter, to do it for me. 

But apparently you missed the part where I said the idea of "retirement" is not even something I would consider anyway.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> There are other institutions, some much older than the IBEW, that are able to take care of such things too. Here's one I'm associated with.



Precisely.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)




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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

The above posting is a perfect example of two graemlins sitting on some chairs eating popcorn.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Meaning: I'm just sitting back and watching the show.​


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Meaning: I'm just sitting back and watching the show.


I'm aware of that. You're seriously ruining my joke. :jester:


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## Adam12 (May 28, 2008)

randomkiller said:


> To cut to the chase, Union is better for the employee and Non Union is better for the employer. It doesn't get anymore black and white than that.


Enough said. :thumbsup:


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Peter D said:


> Who said anything about not saving money for the future? I just don't need a union retirement plan, or any other organization for that matter, to do it for me.
> 
> But apparently you missed the part where I said the idea of "retirement" is not even something I would consider anyway.


I think that it is best to set up more than one income source while you are in your prime earning years. 
If my every day work associations can produce one additional source of funds over the other I would chose the one that was putting some decent cash aside for me later. A qualifying year is just 300 hours.
I didn't think much about retirement when I was younger but now that I'm pushing 50 the thought process changes quite a bit.


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## Merit Man (Apr 6, 2009)

miller_elex said:


> I can't believe these ABC shop owners have their guys believing that the ABC is watching out for the guys best interests.
> 
> One guy from an ABC shop told me the ABC kept his wages high so he could afford a decent home and feed his family!


You say you can't believe it (first sentence) and then you prove that it is true (second sentence). You're being silly! Of course individual Merit Shop employers can decide to pay a struggling (financially) employee that is a hard worker more than they might pay a similar employee. I realize this concept is foreign to those of you in the Union, but this is the Merit Shop way.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Peter D said:


> I'm aware of that. You're seriously ruining my joke. :jester:


 
Sorry. I thought you were working in the Dominican Republic and wouldn't notice me.... :whistling2:


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## jshultz229 (Apr 6, 2009)

i dont see where the decision would be, work union and make more money and have awesome benefits, or work non union and make less and pay for your own health care and retirement. in my area right now we make on average 6 dollars or so more an hour than non union and we're the only ones that have work. now all of a sudden everyone wants to join. guess i can't blame them.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

jshultz229 said:


> i dont see where the decision would be, work union and make more money and have awesome benefits, or work non union and make less and pay for your own health care and retirement.


Yeah, how can anybody resist a system where a "top dog" or a guy who can't hook up a 3-way setup all make the same pay? :laughing:


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

Peter D said:


> Yeah, how can anybody resist a system where a "top dog" or a guy who can't hook up a 3-way setup all make the same pay? :laughing:


 
You know that is such bull****, most of the big guys in my area pay more than scale for the guys with more specific skills. To think merit shops are the only places that have varying pay rates is just ignorant. You need to pull your head out of your ass and open your eyes. But what do I know, I'm just a Union guy that hasn't been laid off in the last 20 years.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

randomkiller said:


> You know that is such bull****, most of the big guys in my area pay more than scale for the guys with more specific skills. To think merit shops are the only places that have varying pay rates is just ignorant. You need to pull your head out of your ass and open your eyes. But what do I know, I'm just a Union guy that hasn't been laid off in the last 20 years.


Well, that settles it then. I'm going to the hall tomorrow to sign up. :laughing:


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

Peter D said:


> Well, that settles it then. I'm going to the hall tomorrow to sign up. :laughing:


Somehow I don't think any would take you if you were serious.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Peter D said:


> Well, that settles it then. I'm going to the hall tomorrow to sign up. :laughing:


Think you'll get your $85/hour? :whistling2:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

randomkiller said:


> Somehow I don't think any would take you if you were serious.


Oh, cuts like a knife. How will I ever go on? 

You need to stop taking criticism of the union personally. Did I ever say anything against you? Yet you take criticism of an organization and turn it personal. :blink:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

jshultz229 said:


> i dont see where the decision would be, work union and make more money and have awesome benefits, or work non union and make less and pay for your own health care and retirement. in my area right now we make on average 6 dollars or so more an hour than non union and we're the only ones that have work. now all of a sudden everyone wants to join. guess i can't blame them.


 
And the response is



> You know that is such bull****, most of the big guys in my area pay more than scale for the guys with more specific skills.


Shultz say hey to my son over on Country Club...oh and a big hey to Colonel Klink.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Think you'll get your $85/hour? :whistling2:


Maybe if I find a big shop that pays above scale for extra skills I can make half that. :whistling2:


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

Peter D said:


> Oh, cuts like a knife. How will I ever go on?
> 
> You need to stop taking criticism of the union personally. Did I ever say anything against you? Yet you take criticism of an organization and turn it personal. :blink:


 
Criticism is one thing but BS is BS on any level. It's funny how according to so many on here Union guys can't do anything right but funny at the same time how we get the huge jobs done.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

randomkiller said:


> Criticism is one thing but BS is BS on any level. It's funny how according to so many on here Union guys can't do anything right but funny at the same time how we get the huge jobs done.


 And where did anyone way you can't do anything right?:001_huh:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

randomkiller said:


> Criticism is one thing but BS is BS on any level. It's funny how according to so many on here Union guys can't do anything right but funny at the same time how we get the huge jobs done.


I'm not one of the crowd who says that union members can't do anything right. 
I like the union philosophy of supposedly protecting the worker but in general unions are overrun with corruption and cronyism, and the fact that unions are losing their grip and membership proves they are not as necessary as they once were. 

As for big jobs, there are large non-union shops that do big jobs too, you know.


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

480sparky said:


> And where did anyone way you can't do anything right?:001_huh:


 
"where a "top dog" or a guy who can't hook up a 3-way setup "

Just one example. I just get tired of the BS.


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

Peter D said:


> I'm not one of the crowd who says that union members can't do anything right.
> I like the union philosophy of supposedly protecting the worker but in general unions are overrun with corruption and cronyism, and the fact that unions are losing their grip and membership proves they are not as necessary as they once were.
> 
> As for big jobs, there are large non-union shops that do big jobs too, you know.


 
Not in NYC or any of the places I work.


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

randomkiller said:


> "where a "top dog" or a guy who can't hook up a 3-way setup "
> 
> Just one example. I just get tired of the BS.


actually that statement is correct...a top notch journeyman with 20 yrs experience and a 1st year JW who can't wire a 3way are at the same pay scale. whether or not a shop pays the 20 yr guy over scale is irrelevant.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

randomkiller said:


> "where a "top dog" or a guy who can't hook up a 3-way setup "
> 
> Just one example. I just get tired of the BS.


So all union electricians are 'top dogs'?


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

randomkiller said:


> Not in NYC or any of the places I work.


NY/NJ and Chicago are the last strongholds of the labor unions...and that's changing in NJ...not so much in NY or Chicago...


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

480sparky said:


> So all union electricians are 'top dogs'?


Read Peters post, take it in the context it was said.


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

this is old. Who cares. We all need to work. Well most of us anyway.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

randomkiller said:


> "where a "top dog" or a guy who can't hook up a 3-way setup "
> 
> Just one example. I just get tired of the BS.


Uh, I was talking about the concept of pay parity. I guess that is bull poo though. :blink:


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

Peter D said:


> Uh, I was talking about the concept of pay parity. I guess that is bull poo though. :blink:


Well the only guys making just scale at the company I am with and the previous one are guys brought in just for a construction job. Not the guys that stay employed steadily.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

randomkiller said:


> Well the only guys making just scale at the company I am with and the previous one are guys brought in just for a construction job. Not the guys that stay employed steadily.


I understand that. But is your shop the exception or the rule?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

In my area most of the better (union) electricians make above scale and get extra vacation. But there are dead beats making scale also but not above.


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## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

You know you just got to put it the way it is. People are people, union and non-union shops pay people for skills others do not have. Contractors need to stay in business and use the people and tools to do that. Both type of contractors will get rid of the dead wood on any job that is not producing. Brothers drag up from jobs together and don't get hired back by those contractors. People leave an open/merit shop for a better job, the job finished they try to go back to the last shop, guess what the grass was greener see ya later. There are some great large contractors out there that are non-union paying excellent wages, benefits and bonuses. Small shops of 1-5 people the owners have to provide for themselves ($65-250 PH) but what is the cost of business, how many hours are actually worked vs actual billable hours? I know I know facts and nothing but the facts madam.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

I remember sitting in an ABC class and the instructor was commenting on how crazy the union electricians were for asking to be paid so much more money than they were getting. Everybody laughed! The guys in the class were mostly bums. Class was just a BS session that lasted maybe an hour and a half a the most.Job sites were a grabastic mess. Maybe one guy that knew what he was doing out of 20, and they ran the jobs.
That was my signal to get out of that mentality. The organization only existed to have guys with indenture cards so that they could work on prevailing wage jobs.
My first experience with a union shop was a cultural shock!
All of the best and latest tools, structure and schedule. All of the work was expertly layed out, material was close at hand, productivity was very high and we were treated like grown-ups!
School was like boot camp all over again. No excuses, no tardies and absolutely no missed classes! Nothing below a 75 was acceptable. We had to come in at AM and couldn't leave until 10:15. That was two to four nights a week!


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

randomkiller said:


> You know that is such bull****, most of the big guys in my area pay more than scale for the guys with more specific skills.


The thing is, even if they didn't, you're still paid more than you would be in a merit shop. It's almost as though merit shop employees care more about the *existance* of a pecking order based on skill / tenure, etc than the fact that they're ALL underpaid regardless of where they're at within that order...



> To think merit shops are the only places that have varying pay rates is just ignorant. You need to pull your head out of your ass and open your eyes. But what do I know, I'm just a Union guy that hasn't been laid off in the last 20 years.


YMMV, but most of the naysayers continue to parrot the same lines they've been hearing from their bosses for years. In the end, I know of only TWO electricians who left the union after joining.


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## jshultz229 (Apr 6, 2009)

Peter D said:


> Yeah, how can anybody resist a system where a "top dog" or a guy who can't hook up a 3-way setup all make the same pay? :laughing:


 if your against unions so much why are you in the union topics section?


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

jshultz229 said:


> if your against unions so much why are you in the union topics section?


I don't look in the topic sections, I look for active postings in the "new posts" area and if I see an active thread to chime in on, then I do. And, last I checked, it's an open forum and I can voice an opinion if I so desire.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

jshultz229 said:


> if your against unions so much why are you in the union topics section?


Also, I'm not "anti-union" per se. I'm anti union in the sense that I'm against the corruption, cronyism, bully tactics, nepotism, left leaning political activism, and other things that have polluted an otherwise good cause.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> The thing is, even if they didn't, you're still paid more than you would be in a merit shop. It's almost as though merit shop employees care more about the *existance* of a pecking order based on skill / tenure, etc than the fact that they're ALL underpaid regardless of where they're at within that order...


So, there's no "pecking order" in a union? :laughing:


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

Peter D said:


> Also, I'm not "anti-union" per se. I'm anti union in the sense that I'm against the corruption, cronyism, bully tactics, nepotism, left leaning political activism, and other things that have polluted an otherwise good cause.


I agree with this post.

We should start another Union that doesn't suck as much.


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## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

I have a few questions for everyone, where and how did you receive your training? For those that live in areas that require a license to perform electrical work what was required to be able to aquire the license? I have lived and worked in a few states and none required a license to perform the work. I started out in the IBEW as an Industrial Apprentrice and worked under a JW that always refered to himself as a "Master", he was from the east coast and only joined the union after moving to California at the age of fifty.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

38 years in the trade.
No formal apprenticeship
Lots of classes
Lots of research and reading. 
I worked with a bunch of hard asses that called me stupid all the time so I showed them. They were much older and made more money I soon passed them in wages and knowledge I was a licensed JW by age of 20 and master at 21.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Peter D said:


> Also, I'm not "anti-union" per se. I'm anti union in the sense that I'm against the corruption, cronyism, bully tactics, nepotism, left leaning political activism, and other things that have polluted an otherwise good cause.


I'm in the same camp. I'm anti corruption, anti cronyism, bully tactics, nepotism and any extreme-leaning political activitism. 

I have worked union and nonunion. It happens in both camps I assure you. I think some people believe is isn't as high a crime to employ your own son at top pay in a position he's unqualified for, as it is for a union to place someone in a position they're unqualified for. 

As far as political activitism - it is a necessary evil. Nobody... not seniors or the disabled or minorities or women ever got what they got without political activitism. I have a distaste for anything "extreme." I think it's arrogant and childish.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Peter D said:


> So, there's no "pecking order" in a union? :laughing:


There is no pecking order in the sense that if I show up to work for a contractor, I'm paid less then other electricians on the job, working for that employer for 5 years. There is no pecking order in that If I happen to be more productive than someone else, or more reliable, or less troublesome, I get ROW'd first anyway because I was the last hired.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

brian john said:


> 38 years in the trade.
> No formal apprenticeship
> Lots of classes
> Lots of research and reading.
> I worked with a bunch of hard asses that called me stupid all the time so I showed them. They were much older and made more money I soon passed them in wages and knowledge I was a licensed JW by age of 20 and master at 21.


When you were age 20 what were the requirements for a license?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> When you were age 20 what were the requirements for a license?


 
4 years in the trade was required I had 2-1/2 years the inspector, one of the best walking Mr Martin Harp from the City Of Alexandria told me if I could score 100 he'd pass me.

He graded the test with me sitting in front of him and I missed one question he beat the answer into my head.

8 years later I took his masters test, no such luck 7-1/2 hour test one of the most comprehensive test I ever took. NO HELP from Mr Harp.

In the 70's cities and counties in VA set their own rules some required 4 years for a Masters and some 8 years.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

brian john said:


> 4 years in the trade was required I had 2-1/2 years the inspector, one of the best walking Mr Martin Harp from the City Of Alexandria told me if I could score 100 he'd pass me.


WELL! Gursh derrnit nerowlllll.... the good ole' boy's club alive and well! Face it Brian - 4 years in the trade, licensing a brand new thing - you had to prove very little, and everybody got one. And there you are with a license and not even old enough to legally posess one and meet the standard...

That's how it worked HERE when licensing was introduced. It was a mere formality, like picking up a marriage license at city hall. 



> He graded the test with me sitting in front of him and I missed one question he beat the answer into my head.
> 
> 8 years later I took his masters test, no such luck 7-1/2 hour test one of the most comprehensive test I ever took. NO HELP from Mr Harp.


His pennance ot yours? :blink:



> In the 70's cities and counties in VA set their own rules some required 4 years for a Masters and some 8 years.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> WELL! Gursh derrnit nerowlllll.... the good ole' boy's club alive and well! Face it Brian - 4 years in the trade, licensing a brand new thing - you had to prove very little, and everybody got one. And there you are with a license and not even old enough to legally posess one and meet the standard...
> 
> That's how it worked HERE when licensing was introduced. It was a mere formality, like picking up a marriage license at city hall.


Indeed, I once worked for a guy who told me he never did a day of apprenticeship or took a test to get his license. His father was well connected politically and licenses where a mere commodity to be bought and sold. Things have changed dramatically since those days, but a good percentage of contractors have obtained their licenses that way.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

> That's how it worked HERE when licensing was introduced. It was a mere formality, like picking up a marriage license at city hall.


No formality, I had to take the same test as all other JW's out of the + or - 50 some questions I missed one.

Hey I'll be the first to admit I was not ready to be a JW, but at 2-1/2 years I studied, took a code class and passed the test, more than what others were doing then and now. The company I worked for had 212 electricians few were licensed. With the license I was granted a raise and worked as a lead mechanic on a large condo project. I stayed with the company and was not job jumping.

The remaining licenses I obtained were masters and I took and passed the test for those when I was eligible. 

So if it upsets you so be it.


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## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

I guess most people don't want to pony up to where and how they got their training and experience. Brian John, how did you get in to the testing niche?


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## Thomps (Nov 27, 2008)

*training and experience*

I went through a 9000 hour apprenticeship. I did my in field training with our company, and my 28 weeks of trade school was served at the local tech college. I sat my C of Q in '99.

in 2005 I took the 10 week ESA Masters Pre-exam course, then wrote for and passed my Masters exam. i applied for my contractors license later that year.


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

I'm just working mostly.

Do a little research on the side, but no formal training yet.


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## jshultz229 (Apr 6, 2009)

i did my 8,000 + hours of ojt and 800 hrs of class room training through the NJATC.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

brian john said:


> No formality, I had to take the same test as all other JW's out of the + or - 50 some questions I missed one.


Correct me if I'm wrong, about 10 of those questions related to knob & tube wiring, correct?

How many chapters made up the NEC at that time? Where there 3 or 4? Was there a hospital code? What about intrinsically safe circuits? Did they even HAVE 400a services?!?!?!

Please Brian.... get off your soapbox it's pathetic and sickening. Question 1 was the ampacity of #14 awg. #2 was ampacity of #10, question 3 was how many wires in a 1/2 conduit... 

Yor license test required as much knowledge as a 1st year apprentice these days. 



> Hey I'll be the first to admit I was not ready to be a JW, but at 2-1/2 years I studied, took a code class and passed the test, more than what others were doing then and now. The company I worked for had 212 electricians few were licensed. With the license I was granted a raise and worked as a lead mechanic on a large condo project. I stayed with the company and was not job jumping.
> 
> The remaining licenses I obtained were masters and I took and passed the test for those when I was eligible.
> 
> So if it upsets you so be it.


It doesn't upest me at all. I just don't want anyone to be mislead into equating your posession of an electricians license since so long ago with the ability to pass the test if given today, and I'd bet good money you couldn't.

ESPECIALLY a test given in the SOUTH.


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, about 10 of those questions related to knob & tube wiring, correct?
> 
> How many chapters made up the NEC at that time? Where there 3 or 4? Was there a hospital code? What about intrinsically safe circuits? Did they even HAVE 400a services?!?!?!
> 
> ...


Not trying to get between your guys' argument, but Brian does live in the south. Virginia is south of the Mason-Dixon Line. Maybe you mean further south like NC, SC or Georgia?


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

rlc3854 said:


> I guess most people don't want to pony up to where and how they got their training and experience.


 
I started out wiring houses for about 4 years bofore doing some commercial and going through the first 2 years of ABC school and quitting because I moved out of state for a few months, came back to VA joined the local #26 for 1 year tried to get into the apprenticeship, didn't get in (I think because they already had met the quota for young white guys) and said "F" this, went back and finished my 3rd and 4th year of ABC school, got recommended by my 4th year teacher to a local #26 company, got my VA state Journeymans license, so that I was even eligible to take the local's AJ test, passed that (with ease I might add), and I've been with this same company since June of 2002. Oh and after having my state Journeyman's license for a year I then took and passed the state Masters test.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

> Yor license test required as much knowledge as a 1st year apprentice these days.
> 
> ESPECIALLY a test given in the SOUTH.


 
First off Horse Hockey

Second off I have always said a license proves little or nothing anyone including no electricians can get a license if they study hard enough.

Third I do not need to prove anything to you and not sure where you attitude comes from, but I hold my own in the field and in the office.

Unlike some that have obtained their licenses and then either let the license lapse or do not continue their education I continued my education and try to stay current with the NEC and changes in our industry.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Tests prove but one thing: The person taking it can pass it.

I've seen guys who aced their tests, but can't bend a 90 on a stick of pipe to save their lives.

I've also known guys who are among the best damn electricians around, but can't pass the test to save their lives.



Both can be found on both sides of this issue.


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

I was dealing with a person the other day. I was telling him I wanted to verify the bonding of the transformer and the wiring of the transformer and the panels prior to him getting a final inspection. I was told that's existing doesn't count! I told him your remodeling the space so the service is now yours to verify for correct installation. 

Then the Transformer was opened along with the panels. Guess what the transformer had no ground to steel and XO was not bonded at either the secondary panel or the transformer. I pointed this out and was told yes it is as he pointed to the neutral conductor coming from the transformer.

He could not understand what it was that was needed and why. I had to draw it out for him on paper including wire sizes. 

Moral of this long winded post?
The person I was dealing with has a business that advertises engineering design and construction.
He holds a PE License and a Master Electricians License! He knew just enough to pass a test, and not enough to do it safe!
The License is the first step on a long journey in the trade.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

manchestersparky said:


> I was dealing with a person the other day. I was telling him I wanted to verify the bonding of the transformer and the wiring of the transformer and the panels prior to him getting a final inspection. I was told that's existing doesn't count! I told him your remodeling the space so the service is now yours to verify for correct installation.


I don't know how it works in your neck of the woods, but here, when you get a job inspected ONLY the work you did is inspected, and no violations can be issued for anything else, unless there is an immediate life safety threat.

Being a qualified electrician doesn't make one a good businessperson. And vice-versa. I've seen and worked under every possible senerio. There is no "correct" or "better" situation.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Being a qualified electrician doesn't make one a good businessperson. And vice-versa. I've seen and worked under every possible senerio. There is no "correct" or "better" situation.


Some of the biggest contractors I know, the owner is very limited in electrical knowledge, but knows how to run a business.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

brian john said:


> Some of the biggest contractors I know, the owner is very limited in electrical knowledge, but knows how to run a business.


 
You hit the nail on the head on this one. I knew a electrician he was alright as an electrician, but when he opened his own business I just knew he was going to blow it, but he has become one of the largest contractors in town and is doing very good.


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> I don't know how it works in your neck of the woods, but here, when you get a job inspected ONLY the work you did is inspected, and no violations can be issued for anything else, unless there is an immediate life safety threat.


I look at it this way - He took on the responsibility of the job. He removed circuitry from the 480 panel and added some to the 120/208 panel. This means he opened the panels to perform work in them.
A good electrician who is wiring a tenant space and using the existing panels and transformer,should at the very least verify that the service is safe to use. Do you think a jury would buy" i'm sorry mrs. xyz was injured and her husband killed, but I only wired the space and the service was existing. I only tied the circuitry, that injured , into the service. 

In my opinion the lack of proper grounding is a safety issue!

I did not issue a violation for the lack of grounding. I simply stated that I wouold not issue a final inspection until it was corrected. This left it open as to who would do the correction. The EC on the job could take it upon himself to correct it his cost, or charge for an extra. The owner of the building could have hired another EC to correct it.
The EC chose to correct it himself once explained to him what needed to be completed.

I chose not to Final the project until it was corrected as this way I know it would be corrected. That and this also protected my ass and kept the county off the hook also. What would have happened had I just passed it and something arose because of a safety violation I let go?


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

manchestersparky said:


> I look at it this way - He took on the responsibility of the job. He removed circuitry from the 480 panel and added some to the 120/208 panel. This means he opened the panels to perform work in them.
> A good electrician who is wiring a tenant space and using the existing panels and transformer,should at the very least verify that the service is safe to use. Do you think a jury would buy" i'm sorry mrs. xyz was injured and her husband killed, but I only wired the space and the service was existing. I only tied the circuitry, that injured , into the service.
> 
> In my opinion the lack of proper grounding is a safety issue!


Well I'm sorry, but you better hope I'm not on the jury, and I've been on 3 jurys (one trial took over 6 months with 5 defendants and over 300 indictments) and also on a grand jury for 6 weeks...

I'm doing tenant work and installing or removing circuits, and I am NOT going to open up the transformers just to make sure they're wired correctly, especially if there have been no issues or indication that anything is amiss.

If I swap out a panel, should I open the meter too?

If I replace a receptacle, should I ensure the ground is properly spliced through every device preceding it?

Sorry, but just because an electrician is working on a job with a permit, doesn't mean they bought the entire existing installation.



> I did not issue a violation for the lack of grounding. I simply stated that I wouold not issue a final inspection until it was corrected. This left it open as to who would do the correction. The EC on the job could take it upon himself to correct it his cost, or charge for an extra. The owner of the building could have hired another EC to correct it.
> The EC chose to correct it himself once explained to him what needed to be completed.
> 
> I chose not to Final the project until it was corrected as this way I know it would be corrected. That and this also protected my ass and kept the county off the hook also. What would have happened had I just passed it and something arose because of a safety violation I let go?


You PASS the electrician's work indicated on the permit, and if the transformer grounding issue is that big a deal to you you issue a violation to the OWNER so that it has no effect on what's going on between the electrician and the owner's contracted work.

What you effectively did was blackmail the electrician especially if his final payment depened on getting a passed inspection on his work. You did abuse your power. You should be fired.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> You PASS the electrician's work indicated on the permit, and if the transformer grounding issue is that big a deal to you you issue a violation to the OWNER so that it has no effect on what's going on between the electrician and the owner's contracted work.
> .



In some jurisdictions the inspector can red flag a job for past violations, the EC generally likes this as it generates more money for extras.

Sort of a win win, EC makes money and end user has a safer establishment (in theory)


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Well I'm sorry, but you better hope I'm not on the jury, and I've been on 3 jurys (one trial took over 6 months with 5 defendants and over 300 indictments) and also on a grand jury for 6 weeks...
> 
> I'm doing tenant work and installing or removing circuits, and I am NOT going to open up the transformers just to make sure they're wired correctly, especially if there have been no issues or indication that anything is amiss.
> 
> ...


I agree with everything you said, except that when I swap out a panel, I do open the meter, because that is how I kill the power to the main.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

brian john said:


> In some jurisdictions the inspector can red flag a job for past violations, the EC generally likes this as it generates more money for extras.
> 
> Sort of a win win, EC makes money and end user has a safer establishment (in theory)


 They do that around here. :thumbup: Makes more money for the EC.


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

Keep in mind this was a complete remodel of the space. the only thing that stayed was the electric service & water service. The EC did choose to reuse some circuitry.

AH you said "any indication that something is amiss" THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT CAUGHT MY ATTENTION. I SAW SOMETHING THAT WAS AMISS! 
What you may ask what could I see with out opening anything up? It's what I DID NOT see. I DID NOT SEE a grounding electrode conductor to building steel as required by the code. I only saw the feed from the 277/480 panel and the feed to the 120/208 panel. 

I brought this to the attention of the EC on site and the GC. I told neither one that -they were responsible for correcting it. What I did tell them was that the project would not be given a final until it was corrected. This left it up to the EC or the GC to :
1) contact the owner of the building ( who they are working for) and have the owner decide how to proceed with the correction OR
2) Just have the EC for the project correct it.
I have no idea how they resolved it and if anyone recieved additional payment for the work as thats no my concern. I do know the EC for the project corrected it,(after meeting a second time with him and explaining how and why)

I DID NOT BLACKMAIL ANYONE 

The thing you failed to ask is did I hold up the job? the answer; NO
I discovered the issue at the wall rough in stage- 2 months PRIOR to them calling for a final. Did I affect their final payments ? NO

What I did do WAS MY JOB. Inspect a project and have any safety (NEC) violations corrected. 
What I did do was give the EC an oppurtunity to make a little extra $$ (change order- if they jumped on it or not is up to them)
What I did do was have an incorrect installation corrected
What I did do was to protect the public from a faulty installation.


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

I like the"Jackson 5's" version of ABC.


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## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

I'm sorry, but I have to agree with the others, you are wrong!



manchestersparky said:


> Keep in mind this was a complete remodel of the space. the only thing that stayed was the electric service & water service. The EC did choose to reuse some circuitry.
> 
> AH you said "any indication that something is amiss" THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT CAUGHT MY ATTENTION. I SAW SOMETHING THAT WAS AMISS!
> What you may ask what could I see with out opening anything up? It's what I DID NOT see. I DID NOT SEE a grounding electrode conductor to building steel as required by the code. I only saw the feed from the 277/480 panel and the feed to the 120/208 panel.
> ...


Whether this became an issue in this one instance is not the point. Inspectors doing business this way is wrong. Using your power over the EC to get work done that you feel is necessary regardless of what the contract states is wrong. Maybe the work needs to be corrected, maybe it doesn't, but you should be dealing with the property owner, not take the easy way out and muscle the electrician into making corrections on non-related work.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

I agree with what manchester did. If you want to take on the business of electrical contracting, then some things are just going to come with the territory. He gave the ec plenty of time to have the powers that be deal with the situation, too (which is nice), which meant that if they wanted to try to get paid for it or not do it they had plenty of options. I've been on the electrician's side of this exact scenario a couple of times and I see nothing wrong with it. How else is an inspector going to enforce the code and protect the public ?


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

Welcome to the forum wildleg.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

I think how the Inspector presents it has a whole to do with it. I never have a problem with fixing anything else that they see that is a problem it just means money for me. THANK YOU Mr. Inspector


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