# Both sides of the fence



## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

I worked non-union for about 6 years and was with one shop for about 4 years.Mostly out of the ground new commercial construction.

I have now been union for about 2 years and have been with the same contractor since I organized.

I'm new to this sight and I think I can offer some objective insight from both sides of the fence.I think theres alot of misconceptions on both sides.I would like to offer my expierence and opinions to the guys who have never been on the other side wether its non union or union.

myth # 1 all non union electricians are unskilled hacks.-Not true

myth# 2 all union electricians are lazy bums that are laid off 6 months out of the year.- not true

If you have any questions concernig union membership or union vs non union feel free to ask and I will try to answer them as honest as I can.
I know that I dont have the time in as some of the older guys(30 years)or more but With 8 years of electrical construction under my belt I feel I can offer some good insight.

Just post your question here and I'll do my best to help.


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## jbfan (Jan 22, 2007)

What compelled you to go union?


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

When you were organized, did they [the Union] guarantee you an amount of hours per year for a given number of years?

Are you with the same shop that was organized?


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

"What compelled you to go union?"

Great question,I'll just list a few of the things that sealed the deal for me and in no certain order.Higher rate of pay,Pension,Training,Healthcare,Job oppertunities,job sight conditions,And a contract that spells it all out.

These are just a few of the things that attracted me the union and if there is any one of these topics that I listed that you would like to get deeper into let me know.

Even though the money is much better the outstanding health care for me AND my family alone is probally the number one factor.
I make my comparisions based on my expierence and others that have organized only.I do not assume what others are getting.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Celtic said:


> When you were organized, did they [the Union] guarantee you an amount of hours per year for a given number of years?
> 
> Are you with the same shop that was organized?


 
I was not guaranteed hours per year.I dont think anyone can promise you work,union or non union.All though this is not the first time I have been asked this and I have been told by others that "they know some one that was".

The contractor that I was with did not sign the contract.It was ashame for him not to.The fact is he did not want to pay his guys the rate.This contractor was crooked.From cash for overtime to bounced checks to oweing major back taxes.Working with no permitts the list is endless.
I wish he would of worked everything out.The nlrb brought him up on charges and he skipped court and town.
I hate to see a contractor close shop 1 less job oppertunity.


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

slickvic277 said:


> I worked non-union for about 6 years and was with one shop for about 4 years.Mostly out of the ground new commercial construction.
> 
> I have now been union for about 2 years and have been with the same contractor since I organized.
> 
> ...


 

Welcome to the forum brother. I'm one of the lazy bums that hasn't had a non scheduled day off since '86'. Someday I'll get 6 months off.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

slickvic277 said:


> I hate to see a contractor close shop 1 less job oppertunity.


Look at it this way....the work still needs to be done ~ when 1 guy closes [for the reasons detailed above] another opens or another just gains more market share.
Either way...you win ~ the crooked guy is gone and life goes on.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

I have worked all sides open shop, in the field and management, union in the field and management.

For me I see no difference in work quality, I have stated numerous times there are abundant slackers on both sides. I do feel the best of the best generally end up in the union because there is the better pay scale and benefits. But many of these best came from open shops NOT UNION TRAINED

Additionally I feel in the overall scheme of things union is better due to the consistent pay scale and transferable benefits including excellent health care (which union boys Obama will destroy if we get socialized health care).

What drives me crazy about many union members is this thought they we are so much better than open shop workers, the name calling and the trashing of work and vehicles. I recently had a union brother from another firm trash one of my trucks assuming my firm was open shop, because we beat them on some parts of a project. He was fired, and luckily I had the cool not to totally trash his ass. I still pummel his small minded piece of SH*T butt if I knew who he was GD jerk.

It has been my experience (as I have this stated countless times) most name callers are total SLACKERS, and can't do crap in the way of decent electric work. In addition the union lawyers that spend more time trying to figure a way out of work that doing any quality work. Those that automatically feel union does better work because they are union are sadly mistaken.


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## BryanMD (Dec 31, 2007)

brian john said:


> Additionally I feel in the overall scheme of things union is better due to the consistent pay scale and transferable benefits including excellent health care (which union boys Obama will destroy if we get socialized health care).


Well Brian, I am one who is SOLIDLY in favor of separating health insurance from the employer relationship and employment status altogether.

HOW that comes about is indeed going to be a can of worms... but the rationality of the principle behind the shift is inarguable.


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

For the average electrician the Union could be a real good move, and for a young man looking for a career it could be a great place to start.

For a first class foreman with real leadership skills an open shop can offer a lot more money and benefits, along with more headaches. There is something to be said for merit pay…both ways. Merit shops can also take advantage of a good foreman if he does not know how to market himself but if he does he can go very far. 

The biggest problems with the union are the culture and the leadership. IBEW has become in its own right just another business and middle man with its own agenda, corporate culture and management that pays itself far better than the membership or even us contractors get paid, who in turn foster a bloated sense of pride through a culture that permeates IBEW. 

The membership culture seems to have mistaken indoctrination for education and as we have all heard many times from the membership you can tell apart men that have been brought up through the union from men who have not. How is that any different than stating whether or not somebody is a company man? There is a very feint line between a brother and a comrade.



> For those who stubbornly seek freedom, there can be no more urgent task than to come to understand the mechanisms and practices of indoctrination. These are easy to perceive in the totalitarian societies, much less so in the system of 'brainwashing under freedom' to which we are subjected and which all too often we serve as willing or unwitting instruments.-Noam Chomsky


 This culture and attitude that is us against them and we are the greatest most well trained and professional work force in the history of man, has to be the most counter productive way any business relationship can function. We are all in the service industry, we all provide a service and to lose sight of the basic purpose of our professions and basic business principles will put us all out of business. Just look at our market share; in my area in 1969 we had 98% percent market share, and now we have about 9% (maybe less) and the same drastic reductions have taken place in every town in Texas. Its more than the Wal-Mart mentality that go us here, it’s the culture of the IBEW itself that got us here. 

Right now I could list page after page of benefits and good reasons for an electrician or young man to join the union, but I can’t list more than few reasons why a contractor would want to enter into a collective bargaining agreement, and at the same time could offer one hell of a list of why a contractor would not want to do it. 

This is IBEWs problem and therefore my problem too, they have forgotten that business is about people and dealing with people to make money is called sales. The old strong arm tactics and mentality of use union labor or else, the name calling and intimidation, salting jobs, picketing jobs, and other underhanded and dishonest practices IBEW has used in the past, in case you have not notice aren’t working all that well. We have lost market share over it, we continue to suffer for it. I have lost market share over it, and right now one of the biggest GCs in town will not give work because I am a union contractor, and that is not the fault of a merit shop. Pride did not work out so well for Lucifer either ya know. 

Last year we went into contract negotiations with IBEW. We had real concerns about the economy (that turned out to be more than justified), about the quality of labor, about how we were going to make this work. The negotiations degraded into a debate about whether the market was really that share, about paid vacations, and a pay raise. When I spoke with my labor about my issues most of the guys understood, but the yahoos that go to the meetings to vote on our real issues did not seem to get it. This is another problem IBEW has, the issues are decided by the people that show up to the meetings, and quite a few of the membership does not regularly go to the meetings, but the Fleas, the yahoos, and the radicals do, and they vote. How much market share do we have to lose for all of us to get it? 

Unions and collective bargaining can server a purpose, they can be beneficial for all involved and do provide an excellent platform for training, but I don’t think IBEW understands that in our free market society that they are really just a labor service and if they don’t figure out how to market themselves a little better than ego and threats they will continue to lose market share. Maybe they do understand this and that’s why the spend millions trying to lobby the democrats to change the laws to force the market to use them but like the other tactics unions have used in the past that really has not worked out so well for them either. 

There, that’s my view from my side of the fence.


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## anonymousbikes (Oct 11, 2008)

> If you have any questions concernig union membership or union vs non union feel free to ask and I will try to answer them as honest as I can.
> I know that I dont have the time in as some of the older guys(30 years)or more but With 8 years of electrical construction under my belt I feel I can offer some good insight.
> 
> Just post your question here and I'll do my best to help.


 
First off I'd just like to thank you for taking the time to answer questions, I will probably be one with a new question everyday :laughing:

Hopefully if this economy ever picks up I will be joining the apprenticeship program here in my area but untill then I've just been trying to get all my questions answered and thanks to places like this and people like you its been going good.

Anyways I was just wondering what do you do if your laid off because there is no work and things are slow everywhere like now, is it like an "open shop" where you file for unemployment or is there something else you have to do?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

BryanMD said:


> Well Brian, I am one who is SOLIDLY in favor of separating health insurance from the employer relationship and employment status altogether.



The number one bitch of wounded veterans is the government run hospitals. Take this and multiply by 100's and wait for the most F**KED up system you have ever seen.

Our government screws the pooch on damn near everything they do I sure as hell do not want those A-holes telling me how to get medical treatment. I am alive because of Americans wonderful health care system, I SURE AS HELL DO NOT WANT TO PUT MY LIFE IN THE HANDS OF THIS OR ANY CONGRESS. Look at the housing mess initiated by congress. Boy you have real faith.

Look at it this way what ever health care system we are forced to have. Congress will be exempt from it and have their own.


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## BryanMD (Dec 31, 2007)

brian john said:


> The number one bitch of wounded veterans is the government run hospitals. Take this and multiply by 100's and wait for the most F**KED up system you have ever seen.


I didn't describe the system I would like to see or what I suspect we are likely to get... and I agree that the one you describe above would be the worst of all possible outcomes.

My point remains that the present model distorts SO MUCH of the employment relationship and does so to the detriment of everyone involved. What guys our age knew 30 years ago as a common (and secondary) benefit to employment has become the tail wagging the dog.

If you (or a dependent) has a "pre-existing condition" you are locked into keeping your job for the medical benefits. Anyone who wants to start a new business has an almost impossible task to attract qualified and experienced help because of this issue. 

It goes on from there...

This isn't the venue to be discussing this (let alone debating it) but for every working person like yourself who has had good insurance and access to good medical care because of it there are two who don't have it... and *that* is where the problem lies.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

And this is why employers should carry a basic package for all employees.

Keeping it in the private market.

One of the major benefits being union for me, while it cost 800.00 plus a month per man it takes all worries off my shoulders knowing my employees are covered.


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## BryanMD (Dec 31, 2007)

brian john said:


> One of the major benefits being union for me, while it cost 800.00 plus a month per man it takes all worries off my shoulders knowing my employees are covered.


You think $10,000 a year (and rising) is a *good* thing? 

Look past the EC business and the IBEW package for a minute and try to sell that thinking to most small business owners where the top wage paid to anyone is (maybe) $15 per hour.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

PhatElvis you bring up sevral good points and I do agree that alot of the culture that thrives threw out the ibew is outdated and counter prductive and we need to market are selves better.For example let the customer know what kind of training is involved not just "were the best trained" and I think that the organizing needs to change in some respect as to be more geared towards what the contractor can gain from a trained and skilled workforce.
In a country were outsourcing and overseas slave labor is encouraged from are elected leaders in washington(DEMS AND REPUBLICANS),and profitt is the only bottom line that counts,we as an organazation need to better represent and justify are wages and rights.
I feel that as older generations move on and the younger generations move in this will be acomplished.
It has to.Not just for union labor but for all american labor.
Everyone deserves an honest days pay for an honest days work.
Not ten dollars per hour working 50+ hours a week just to make ends meat.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

BryanMD said:


> You think $10,000 a year (and rising) is a *good* thing?
> 
> Look past the EC business and the IBEW package for a minute and try to sell that thinking to most small business owners where the top wage paid to anyone is (maybe) $15 per hour.


 
I said basic package, what union employees have is hardly basic it is the Cadillac of all programs. A more basic program might have a realistic deductible per year, be supplemented by employees to minimize the hypochondriac's from screwing the program. 

Sooner or later someone is going to pay. In the county I live in several years ago the county posted their cost for day care to the poor of 145.00 a month for taxpayers at the time KinderCare was 125.00 a month for anyone. Private sector will operate better with some controls....


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

anonymousbikes,when your laid off the process is pretty much the same call unemployment file your claim and call your local.But every local is different in how they handle their out of work labor.Here(local 98) we have soj (solicit your own job) which allows the membership to get there own jobs and not sit on the bench forever.
And 50/50 which requires the contractor to hire a guy off the bench for every soj hire they have.Keeps everyone honest and working.
I think these two systems makes are local work and should be standard for the whole IBEW.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

slickvic277 said:


> anonymousbikes,when your laid off the process is pretty much the same call unemployment file your claim and call your local.But every local is different in how they handle their out of work labor.Here(local 98) we have soj (solicit your own job) which allows the membership to get there own jobs and not sit on the bench forever.
> And 50/50 which requires the contractor to hire a guy off the bench for every soj hire they have.Keeps everyone honest and working.
> I think these two systems makes are local work and should be standard for the whole IBEW.


That sounds decent.

One problem I have found with unemployed people is a depression sets in and they give up. I would look till I got a job. Even if I had to work double shift at a store or resturant.


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## mikeg_05 (Jan 1, 2009)

What if you have your 02 card and enter the construction apprenticeship in the union, do you start out at apprentice pay scale or do they adjust it to your experience?


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

brian john said:


> TOur government screws the pooch on damn near everything they do I sure as hell do not want those A-holes telling me how to get medical treatment. I am alive because of Americans wonderful health care system, I SURE AS HELL DO NOT WANT TO PUT MY LIFE IN THE HANDS OF THIS OR ANY CONGRESS. Look at the housing mess initiated by congress. Boy you have real faith.


If the U.S. goes to socialized health care, where are all the Canadians going to go when they need an operation? :icon_wink:


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

mikeg not sure what an 02 card is mabey something different here in philly.As far as credit for past expierence is concerned,two things can happen;If you get in through direct entry then no you will go through the traditional apprentice program.
If your organized then you will be tested to determin your level then you will be placed and your pay scale will match your current scale or the level they place you at.It will be the higher of the two.
If you already went through a STATE APPROVED apprentice program then by law they have to bring you in as a journeyman.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Peter D said:


> If the U.S. goes to socialized health care, where are all the Canadians going to go when they need an operation? :icon_wink:


Thailand


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## mikeg_05 (Jan 1, 2009)

slickvic277 said:


> If you already went through a STATE APPROVED apprentice program then by law they have to bring you in as a journeyman.


thats the answer I needed:thumbsup: Here in washington you need 4000 hours of resi work to get your "EL02" card. Then 4000 more hours, but commerical work, then you get your "EL01" card. Thanks again


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## Minuteman (Dec 29, 2007)

brian john said:


> The number one bitch of wounded veterans is the government run hospitals. Take this and multiply by 100's and wait for the most F**KED up system you have ever seen.
> 
> Our government screws the pooch on damn near everything they do I sure as hell do not want those A-holes telling me how to get medical treatment. I am alive because of Americans wonderful health care system, I SURE AS HELL DO NOT WANT TO PUT MY LIFE IN THE HANDS OF THIS OR ANY CONGRESS. Look at the housing mess initiated by congress. Boy you have real faith.
> 
> Look at it this way what ever health care system we are forced to have. Congress will be exempt from it and have their own.


You used the VA to illustrate the potential hazard of Gov't Health Care. Can anyone name a Gov't program that is run efficiently, effectively, and fiscally accountable?

The Military? (Yes, they are good at killing people and breaking things, but NOT so good at holding a budget).
The Post Office?
Social Security?
Education?
NASA?
IRS?

You get my point. So, what makes people think that they will do any better at Health Care? :huh:


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

BryanMD said:


> You think $10,000 a year (and rising) is a *good* thing?
> 
> Look past the EC business and the IBEW package for a minute and try to sell that thinking to most small business owners where the top wage paid to anyone is (maybe) $15 per hour.


 
This $ figure has to be very wrong. According to all the non Union guys on here they make as much or more than we do. "A" rate in my area is @40/hr so $15 is way too low. And I know all open shop guys get great bennies, just ask them.:thumbsup:


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Minuteman said:


> You used the VA to illustrate the potential hazard of Gov't Health Care. Can anyone name a Gov't program that is run efficiently, effectively, and fiscally accountable?
> 
> The Military? (Yes, they are good at killing people and breaking things, but NOT so good at holding a budget).
> The Post Office?
> ...


 
Because after 233 years they may finally get one right?


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Because after 233 years they may finally get one right?


Usually the problem the government has is that once a program is in place, people quickly learn how to milk it. The larger the program the more milkers you get.


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## Minuteman (Dec 29, 2007)

MechanicalDVR said:


> This $ figure has to be very wrong. According to all the non Union guys on here they make as much or more than we do. "A" rate in my area is @40/hr so $15 is way too low. And I know all open shop guys get great bennies, just ask them.:thumbsup:


I do. Paid Holidays, 2 weeks vacation, health care for me (which is okay, because momma works at a hospital and gets her health care and the kids are gone) and my license fees and CEU's are all paid by the company. To top it off, according to the locale's web site, I make above scale on the check.


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

Minuteman said:


> I do. Paid Holidays, 2 weeks vacation, health care for me (which is okay, because momma works at a hospital and gets her health care and the kids are gone) and my license fees and CEU's are all paid by the company. To top it off, according to the locale's web site, I make above scale on the check.


 
Do you have any retirement bennies paid for by the company? Or a 401k that's your baby?


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## Minuteman (Dec 29, 2007)

randomkiller said:


> Do you have any retirement bennies paid for by the company? Or a 401k that's your baby?


401K, but I rolled over my pension account into it.

But, I get some profit sharing. My Christmas bonus was over $3000


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

It is not unusual for a skilled foreman to make quite a lot more than union scale in an open shop. The models I have seen around here are set up with one very well paid foreman and a bunch of underpaid labor that work for that foreman.


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## Minuteman (Dec 29, 2007)

PhatElvis said:


> It is not unusual for a skilled foreman to make quite a lot more than union scale in an open shop. The models I have seen around here are set up with one very well paid foreman and a bunch of underpaid labor that work for that foreman.


Not sure if that's the norm. Bigger merit shops here pay scale anyway due to prevailing wage jobs. The Air Base here has lots of work. The GM car plant closed that was next to the Base, and now the Air Force has it and there is a lot of remodel. It was more important for them to pay scale since the State went Right to Work in 2001.


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## Thomps (Nov 27, 2008)

*open shop set up*

Just thought I would through chime in with a few examples of what our shop provides, just for comparison.

sorry, what is 401K b.t.w.?

Our base rate for licenses starts at $22.00

we offer health benefits, available to licensed guys

profit share available to anyone here over 1 year

project bonuses to foremen & lead hands (based on projects)

introduced R.S.P. matching contributions this year

a couple of other performanced based incentives.

Transportation, boot allowances, tool allowances, uniforms, etc.

and btw Peter, never been to the states for surgery.


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## Minuteman (Dec 29, 2007)

Thomps said:


> sorry, what is 401K b.t.w.?


Kind of a self directed retirement account. There are some deferred taxes on your money. Most big employers pay a few percent in matching funds.


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## Thomps (Nov 27, 2008)

thanks, Minute Man :thumbsup:


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

Thomps said:


> sorry, what is 401K b.t.w.?


A 401K plan is a US tax deferred retirement savings account that was set up in 1978 that was originally intended as a way for executives to *supplement* their primary pension plans.

Then the bean counters figured out a way to market these 401k supplemental plans as a the primary pension plan only the employee is responsible for funding it with a partial match by the employer as defined each fiscal year (they can change it each year). 

The key change being a 401k is an “employee contribution plan” whereas a pension is a “defined benefit plan”. In an employee contribution plan the employer only has to pay administration and support costs, and can change their matching contributing amount for any reason they want from year to year. With a defined benefit plan (like a pension) the employer is locked into funding the accounts and can not change their contribution amounts. 

…and it gets better. 

Once bean counters figured out a way to swap out pension plans for 401k plans they were now the administrators these new plans they could invest them however they wanted, so some of them used their 401k plans to buy stock in their own companies…like ENRON. So not only is it your money but they are using it for their benefit.

So whether or not your company has a 401k is not really as big of a deal as you think it is. You should be focusing on your base pay and investing your own money.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

I think PhatELvis hit the nail on the head.That has been my expierence in the "open shop" world,one well paid foreman and a bunch of cheap labor doing what the foreman tells them.Then there will be a few middle of the road type foreman .While they make a few dollars more then the help there not getting what the main foreman is getting.Everyone has to make there own deal behind the scenes.This leads to jelousy(spl?)and resentment with in the shop its self. No structured pay scale.This has been one of my biggest problems with the open shop contractor. 
The one shop(non union)That I had been with the longest had this very problem and when people with more time in found out they were getting less then a guy who was a bit newer it created real problems in the shop.
A fist fight broke out in a hotel room on a travel job once because of it.

This is were the union and open shop has there biggest difference.
The current shop(union)that I'm with now is the opposite,it would be nothing for a couple of guys to compare checks to see the diffrence in bring home from a journeyman to a foreman or a 4th period apprentice and a 5th period apprentice.
Everyone knows the wages.Theres also alot of really talented guy's making there own deals and getting above and beyond the scale.
Which is fine,the rate is the MINNIMUM you can make.
Im not saying that jelousy and backstabing dosn't exsist in the union,I just think its further and fewer apart.

Then theres acountability, in the open shop your foreman and supervision are ALWAYS going to be your bosses.
In the union shop my current foreman could be working for ME one day,it happens all the time.
I think it keeps a level playing field as far as job sight politics are concerned. 

these views are just my opinions based off my expierence.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

> The Military? (Yes, they are good at killing people and breaking things, but NOT so good at holding a budget).


My point exactly


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## Minuteman (Dec 29, 2007)

Yes, it's true that in a merit shop, the pay differs from hand to hand. Also, the guys on the top get the best pay.

And, Union hands make the same pay. And, union foremen/general foreman have a guaranteed "minimum wage" of 10% and 20% respectively. However, having been a Union foreman, I know that the merit system kicks in for those who are loyal to their union EC's and their pay reflects it.

Bottom line, you have been on both sides of the fence, and so have I. Your happy where you are, so am I. For every reason you give for your choice, I can gave a reason for mine.

Best of luck to you. No matter where we work, let's do our best to work safe, install what's safe, and make it home safe.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Minuteman,Everybody has a reason for there choices in life,and are entitled to have a choice.I also dont want to see people hurt no matter what side of the fence there on.

I started this thread with the intent of helping people who are thinking of organizing or leaving open shop for an oppertunity to work union.
I wanted to offer insight into both worlds and help to dispell some misconceptions. Especially for the younger guys who just getting started and are not getting a honest explanation of things.
I was also hoping for others who made the switch one way or the other to include there opinions based on there expierences.
Because my expierences and opinions are not the same as everyone elses.

I would like to think that I helped atleast one person who was looking for some insightful information.
Although the thread kind a got high jacked and turned into a political socialized health care conversation!(I could talk about that topic all day).
Mabey we could get another thread started for that topic of conversation.


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## Minuteman (Dec 29, 2007)

I hear ya SlicVic. One other point though. When I organized in, the local here had like 11% of the work. Now they have about 4%. I kinda like being in the 96% that's working.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Its the oppisite here we have ALL the work in the philadelphia area,the surrounding locals out in the counties not so much.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

PhatElvis said:


> It is not unusual for a skilled foreman to make quite a lot more than union scale in an open shop. The models I have seen around here are set up with one very well paid foreman and a bunch of underpaid labor that work for that foreman.


 
So, it's only good to be the foreman, the rest of the guys are just there to be used and abused? Nice system, not for me in any case.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Minuteman said:


> Not sure if that's the norm. Bigger merit shops here pay scale anyway due to prevailing wage jobs. The Air Base here has lots of work. The GM car plant closed that was next to the Base, and now the Air Force has it and there is a lot of remodel. It was more important for them to pay scale since the State went Right to Work in 2001.


 
While prevailing wage is nice when you are working and collecting it, what happens to a guy 20 yrs down the road when he may think of retirement? If he wasn't a saver and didn't do his own retirement saving then he is just a guy with nothing to show for his last twenty years of being a good company man.
Maybe non Union guys that work PW (Davis-Bacon) get comparable checks while employed, they sure get the shaft most often when looking to retire. 
I think Union is the way to go.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Minuteman said:


> Yes, it's true that in a merit shop, the pay differs from hand to hand. Also, the guys on the top get the best pay.
> 
> And, *Union hands make the same pay*. And, union foremen/general foreman have a guaranteed "minimum wage" of 10% and 20% respectively. However, having been a Union foreman, I know that the merit system kicks in for those who are loyal to their union EC's and their pay reflects it.
> 
> ...


Not in most of the shops around here. Most guys take classes and get Certs in specialities and get paid accordingly. Union scale is the minimum you get not the most you'll get. My company sent me out to Tulsa a couple months ago for Aaon School and I'm off to Kansas City for Wattmaster in April. And my pay will reflect that when I get my anniversary review. And my Christmas bonus put a smile on my face as well.


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## Minuteman (Dec 29, 2007)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Not in most of the shops around here. Most guys take classes and get Certs in specialities and get paid accordingly. Union scale is the minimum you get not the most you'll get. My company sent me out to Tulsa a couple months ago for Aaon School and I'm off to Kansas City for Wattmaster in April. And my pay will reflect that when I get my anniversary review. And my Christmas bonus put a smile on my face as well.


No doubt you are in local 3. No doubt 3 has the bulk of the work. No doubt you have found yourself in a good situation. No doubt this is a pro labor site. I'm just saying that there are times and places where being in a merit shop is as good or even better.

Like I said before, I would rather be in the 96% here that's working, than the 4% here that's not. From what I'm hearing, book 1 has over 600 on it. Wonder how many of those guys are going keep there ticket until retirement?


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## walkerj (May 13, 2007)

_LA, Baton Rouge LU 995 
Jurisdiction: Inside & Outside _http://www.ibew.org/IBEW/directory/SearchDirectory/detailLU.asp?LocalUnion=995​_Posted: February 6, 2009
Work is at a stand still with jobs being canceled and contractors cutting back every day.
Referral Hours: 8:00 a.m._

_Journeyman Scale: $ 21.87 _
_Health & Welfare: 3.95 _
_Pension: 12.5% _
_Annuity: 0 _
_Vacation: 0 _
 
That's funny, because we have four jobs going on right now between six guys, and more waiting to start next month.
Our *helpers* make 19/hr + health/dental/life/401k
Me as a foreman/journeyman(EVERYONE works) make 25/hr + health/dental/life/401k/truck/gas/laptop/bonus for early completion

And I stayed at a Holiday Inn express last night:icon_wink:


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

MechanicalDVR said:


> So, it's only good to be the foreman, the rest of the guys are just there to be used and abused? Nice system, not for me in any case.


 I am not so sure all the guys found in merit shops making chump change are the same quality of electrician you want to slap a union shirt, put on the books and send out as one of those "highly skilled electricians" that yall like to brag about all time. Granted we all know the hall does just that but its not really something that reflects well on the guys in the union that are true craftsmen. 

For years the union strategy has been to lock up and control all the labor then to have a monopoly and call all the shots. This is a failing business strategy, and on a nationwide scale IBEW is losing market share over it.

In sales it idea it to sell your client on the idea that with your service they will get a high quality job, on time, for a fair price; going about this by bad mouthing your competitor wont work like you think it should and is widely frowned on in the business word. 

Sales is not something to be looked down on or shunned, we all have to do it from the top all the way to the bottom, and the actions of every one from the helpers to the electricians, suppliers, office staff, to the business owners reflect on us all. You union boys need to take that to heart, whether you like it or not you are part of sales.

If you want IBEW to prosper and electrical contractors to line up at your door, all you have to do is practice what you preach, and do so with sales in mind. Get rid of the rif-raf that was organized out of some merit shop for the sake of warm bodies, get rid of the radicals who go around bad mouthing everyone including your clients, get rid of the slackers, and focus more on educating and a lot less son indoctrinating. 

As a contractor and a business man I can tell you right now if IBEW could actually deliver what they promised, and all I had to do was pick up the phone put in a call and a first class high quality electrician would show up at my door ready to work, that every contractor in this town would be union. 

I have guys that have taken a call that show up: 

Reeking if alcohol
Without a license
Without ID or a socsec card (for the record, yes you have to have the card) 
Demanding to know who the shop steward is before I even hire them. 
Without tools
Without work boots
With out transportation
Refusing to tell me who their last employer was (yes I check references) 
To tell me their vacation starts in 2-weeks after I hire them
To take a short call then file for unemployment
To tell me I am lucky to be hiring them and they are doing me a favor
To tell me they cant pass the mandatory drug test


You guys need to clean up your own back yard before you start telling everyone else how to mow their grass…

Just to be fair here, the union does have some first class electricians, and I currently employ a number of them. What I want is more of them, even in this economy, but I am unwilling and unable to afford to weed through the rif-raf to find them.

.


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## Minuteman (Dec 29, 2007)

Sometime after I got my "A" ticket, I took a hospital call that was coming out of the ground. Shortly after, some local 69 guys that had signed book 2 found out that I am a tea totaler. One asked me to pee in a plastic bottle to "help a brother out". Seems his tool buddy was smoked on a dirty UA and was allowed to take a re-pee. :blink:

Ah... nope :no:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

PhatElvis said:


> I am not so sure all the guys found in merit shops making chump change are the same quality of electrician you want to slap a union shirt, put on the books and send out as one of those "highly skilled electricians" that yall like to brag about all time. Granted we all know the hall does just that but its not really something that reflects well on the guys in the union that are true craftsmen.
> 
> .


I am not so sure all the guys found in *UNION* shops are the same quality of electrician you want to put in the field, put on the books and send out as one of those "highly skilled electricians" that yall like to brag about all time

SAME OLD SAME OLD


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

while dvr and random have both found a nice home, they are not the norm...local 3 continually has 3-4,000 guys on the bench, and rumor is that several thousand more may be laid off in the near future...

over in NJ, local 102 is 18 months out and 164 is several months out...

I just had breakfast with a good friend, 20 yr union electrician, and we were talking about the situation. He is out of work for the 1st time in 16 yrs...he's also one of the best electricians I have ever known. 

Our conversation obviously touched on compensation...as an A journeyman, his total package is about $75/hr (over $83 an hour when you add in employer taxes)

When you work for a LARGE company like dvr and random, they can usually afford to pay a percentage of their men above scale. Kind of spreading out the extra cost to all the billable hours...

But what about the small union shop? the 20-30 man shop who is scratching and clawing every day for work against non-union shops (who are fully capable) and have a package of $65/hr?

These small union shops don't always have the ability to pay over scale...not unless the men produce more...

The unions also need to change the pay scale...right now almost every 5th yr apprentice is working...many will get laid off as soon as they become 1st year journeymen...for a couple of reasons...1) they are not suddenly going to produce 20% more to mirror their 20% pay raise, and 2) they are not as productive, nor worth the same pay, as a 10 yr journeyman...

scale the journeyman pay in 3 yr increments...it'll let the unions be more competitive on the private market and put more of the guys to work...

a 1st yr union trained jw is probably worth more than a 6yr, non-trained, non-union guy...but the total cost is sometimes prohibitive for getting work...

just a thought...


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## joshjsh79 (Mar 10, 2009)

can someone help me figure this p.w out. our company is working in detroit, we are non-union company,this is a state funded p.w job the scale goes up to like $53 an hour in wayne county. I have my journeymans card. Is the $53 hr. like a package deal ie. insurance retirement etc. first p.w job i have worked on obviously. ty. :001_huh:


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## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

Check this web site out http://www.gpo.gov/davisbacon/allstates.html


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## cdnelectrician (Mar 14, 2008)

Well, in Ontario the going rate for a non-union electrician is anywhere from $20.00 to $26.00 per hour. 40 hour work weeks and time and a half after 44 hours. All of the non-union shops I worked for before I became union did not offer benefit packages, or we were promised bennies but it never materialized. Union, we make $36.00 per hour 37.5 hour work weeks and double time for any time worked over 7.5 hrs in one day. Not to mention all the free training programs we have available to us. We also have an awesome benefit package...so I definitely prefer union over non-union. The one thing I do miss however, is the lack of politics and the loyalty I associate with working non-union.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

cdnelectrician said:


> The one thing I do miss however, is the lack of ... loyalty I associate with working non-union.


You still have loyalty,,,just to something else...dead presidents [or whatever it is you Canadians put on your money] :thumbsup:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

I have said this many times with some modifications. 

For an employee. (Based upon my experience)

A good man (a real electrician) can in most areas I have worked (assuming the local boys do not slit his tires so he can't get to work) find a decent job with close to scale benefits. An average to below average electrician will not get this decent of a package and is way better off in a local.

BUT for all workers being part of a union has major benefits in continuity of benefits and pay should, that good employer that takes care of you retire or die. 


When there is lots of work slackers get pay that matches the top dogs, when work gets slow slackers bitch about how those other guys (the hard workers) run the local. When work gets really tough (like now) I think anyone that has a job is lucky even the best are losing jobs.

For an employer...It is nice going to bed at night knowing your men are taken care of with a standard benefit package, plus what we add.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

brian john said:


> I have said this many times with some modifications.
> 
> For an employee. (Based upon my experience)
> 
> ...


brian John I agree with most of what you say except with the close to scale beni's,well mabey in the south and southwest were the rates are low to begin with.But up a little further north the gap starts to widen.I still have a few friends who work open shop here and they are excellent electricians but there pay is not on par with the locals rates.
The top open shop guys(that I know)are making around $30 per hour, a few are getting 401k's a few are not.A few are getting halfass health care(like aetna)a few are not getting health care at all. 
I'm not totally ignorant though there are a few guys making out just as good or better then union but this is very far and few between.
when the local scale is $47 in the pocket plus another $30 in beni's and retirement,well its just hard to beat.


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