# Estimate for new house



## NJ Contractor (Nov 12, 2016)

The best way is to figure out *your* fully burdened hourly labor costs, then multiply that by the number of hours it will take to do the job, then add your material costs and finally add a markup to cover your overhead and profit.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

It's very important to remember that the GC will have other jobs for you if you can do this one for $5 per sf.
Its especially good if the GC likes you.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Morg12345 said:


> Hello I have done a few whole house wiring jobs in the past and I'm still looking for the best way to estimate a home Wiring project I have heard price per opening ...I have heard square footage times a dollar amount.... I'm basically looking for tips and to figure out how much wire and labor it would be to do a whole house...thanks Jeff


To be serious, I have a per opening price, a price for the service, a price for the temporary. I will provide builders grade switches and receptacles.
The arc-faults can be an unexpected expense. Use caution.
I do not provide surface-mounted fixtures but will install them as part of the per opening price.
I specifically exclude fans and fancy-assed light fixtures. 

Example:
3/2 2000 sf house
5 openings per room x 8 rooms (living, dining, kitchen
Exterior 5 openings
Garage 5 openings

50 openings x @250 per opening $12,500
Service and Panel $ 4,500
Temp $ 1,500

Total $ 18,000

Price check $18,000 divided by 2,000 sf = $9 per sf (right where I want to be)


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Morg12345 said:


> Hello I have done a few whole house wiring jobs in the past and I'm still looking for the best way to estimate a home Wiring project I have heard price per opening ...I have heard square footage times a dollar amount.... I'm basically looking for tips and to figure out how much wire and labor it would be to do a whole house...thanks Jeff


Did you go back over the jobs you have done and figure out how much they would have been per opening or per square foot? 

The per opening and per square foot methods are obviously not super precise, and obviously cookie cutter, they are not going to make you the same money every time. 

I think you're better off doing it the hard way - estimating the material cost from a bill of materials, estimating the labor cost from how many men and how many days you think this will take, add in some room for error and some profit on top of that. 

Over time, if you're disciplined enough to track your material costs and labor costs, and figuring per opening and per square foot numbers from your job history, you'll have a pretty good idea whether those flat rate schemes will work for you, and what the numbers need to be. But it takes a fair bit of history to dial those numbers in, in my opinion. 

Before you're ready to go that far, you might be able to use per square foot and per opening pricing from the little history you've accumulated so far as a sanity check when you do your detailed estimating. Also when you're talking to a customer, it lets you ballpark easily so you can see if you're in their price range and avoid wasting each other's time.


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## Helmut (May 7, 2014)

Southeast Power said:


> To be serious, I have a per opening price, a price for the service, a price for the temporary. I will provide builders grade switches and receptacles.
> The arc-faults can be an unexpected expense. Use caution.
> I do not provide surface-mounted fixtures but will install them as part of the per opening price.
> I specifically exclude fans and fancy-assed light fixtures.
> ...



There is no way you get many of those jobs. I suppose that's why you do more commercial work.

I think guys are still at $125 per home run, and $55 per opening after that.
With an average of 6 openings per room, the per room cost is around $455.

This is why I got of it myself.


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## Morg12345 (Jan 22, 2016)

*Estimate for new house material labor*

I have an opportunity to wire a house this Spring.. I would like advice on figuring my material ,wire, boxes , and the labor to do the house.. I'm looking for a quick easy way to get a rough estimate .I've heard of ways to do an estimate example price for opening ,price per square foot, I'm looking for advice and other ways to estimate I have full Prints.....thanks for advice...Jeff


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## NJ Contractor (Nov 12, 2016)

Why don't you read the thread you started earlier today??

https://www.electriciantalk.com/f29/estimate-new-house-278962/


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

What's the square footage? I'll tell you how much wire to order.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

splatz said:


> I think you're better off doing it the hard way - estimating the material cost from a bill of materials, *estimating the labor cost from how many men and how many days you think this will take*, add in some room for error and some profit on top of that.


The issue with this is when you are new to this type of work (as I believe the OP is) you have no idea how long it will take. And then there is the added variable of how seasoned each worker is, which can be a huge difference. The typical unskilled laborer that ropes houses where I am can do it in literally half the time that it would take me. Unless I get that Dewalt stapler, then they would only be 1.7 times as fast as me.


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## Morg12345 (Jan 22, 2016)

What's the formula I'll figure it


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## Kevin (Feb 14, 2017)

@Dennis Alwon this appears to be a duplicate post, just in a different section of the forum...

Sent from my new phone. Autocorrect may have changed stuff.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

I merged the 2 threads


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## Morg12345 (Jan 22, 2016)

MHElectric said:


> What's the square footage? I'll tell you how much wire to order.


 What's the formula I can figure it myself please and thank you


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## Morg12345 (Jan 22, 2016)

MHElectric said:


> What's the square footage? I'll tell you how much wire to order.


what's your formula I'll figure it


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

Morg12345 said:


> What's the formula I can figure it myself please and thank you


Not really a formula, more like a gut feeling. Depends on the type of house (single story, two story, can lights?, flood lights?, McMansion? Basic 3x2 wiring? )

However, I'll help you out: 

Take the square footage and times it by 3, and you will *Roughly* have the number of how much 14/2 you need. This is for a basic home 2000sqft or less.

That same house will need about 250ft 14/3 and about 500ft 12/2. All the larger wire is whatever. 

Everything goes up from there. Good luck.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Here’s the formula if you’re new at this:

Estimate your labor plus materials. Then multiply it by 2.5.

I’m not joking. I have mentioned this before and others agreed.


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## Morg12345 (Jan 22, 2016)

MHElectric said:


> Morg12345 said:
> 
> 
> > What's the formula I can figure it myself please and thank you
> ...


..I'd be using#12 for all receptical cuicuits #14 for lights


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

99cents said:


> Here’s the formula if you’re new at this:
> 
> Estimate your labor plus materials. Then multiply it by 2.5.
> 
> I’m not joking. I have mentioned this before and others agreed.


For a new home?


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

Morg12345 said:


> ..I'd be using#12 for all receptical cuicuits #14 for lights


I would suggest not doing that.


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## Kevin (Feb 14, 2017)

MHElectric said:


> For a new home?


He is right... last contractor I worked for lost money on the job. Should have listened to 99.

Sent from my new phone. Autocorrect may have changed stuff.


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## Morg12345 (Jan 22, 2016)

MHElectric said:


> Morg12345 said:
> 
> 
> > ..I'd be using#12 for all receptical cuicuits #14 for lights
> ...


So your wiring all receptical cuicuits for 15 amp for everything other then kitchen and bath room?


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

Morg12345 said:


> So your wiring all receptical cuicuits for 15 amp for everything other then kitchen and bath room?


Yes. 

I think the garage has to be #12 now too. It's been a couple years since I've done a house.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Morg12345 said:


> ..I'd be using#12 for all receptical cuicuits #14 for lights


That's CRAZY. :surprise:

You MUST stay with #14 whenever whereever possible.

1) Lay down a rough sketch of the God's eye view of the home. Use quadrangle paper, available at any stationary store so that you're not fiddling with a ruler and scale... just a straight edge. Make copies -- as a noobie you want CLARITY in your runs.

1a) Each copy will be dedicated to ONE size of conductor: #14 or #12. Each conductor will dictate the size of the outlets// receptacle boxes, etc.

1b) As the circuits build up, you can grasp your home run count... and where you'll likely want the home run box to sit.

2) Mark off your MANDATORY #12 circuits -- think kitchen - bath - etc. Since #14 is so easy to run, most guys -- green guys -- foul up their #12 run-logic. Stuff like leaving a NEC mandated load out of their wiring scheme -- only to remember it during the build. Whoops!

3) No-one runs #8 -- the balance of the job will be #10 and #6. Use different colored pencils// inks// highlighters to note the difference. ( Use Orange for #10 if you've got it. ) 
( #6 -- use any contrasting color -- say Black. ) 

All are CABLES -- Romex. Generally, EMT etc. are not in such a build.

Now with even a crude level of scale, you can roll off your wire consumption. Because of the up and down of cable runs, bump your crude roll-off estimate by 60% -- 'cause you're a noobie and will not rope super-efficiently.

Each HR figures a top-plate punch-through. Those are the most expensive holes in Residential. In California, there are so many nails in headers that nail strikes are ultra common. 

You'd better have a cordless Milwaukee Super-Hawg if you expect to race your Romex. Have plenty of SPARES. You can't afford to over-drill, so use the right-size auger bit. 

Your sketch should give you a materials list of boxes -- as a noob -- over box -- that is use a bigger box than the cheapest. Tight boxes kill you on make-up.

Your sketch should give you a decent number for your trim out materials. Now that the industry has so many colors: White, Ivory, Light Almond they become a worry. Will your dimmers mate with your common switches and plates? You can kill yourself chasing after trims -- right at the end of the job.

You'll absolutely want to put all common receptacles on #14 and wire them right along with local lights. LEDs don't draw much, anyway.

The lighting package is another ball of hair. While it's obvious that you have to get the count right, the types right -- when on the job it's critical as to how picky the GC// arch// HO is. Joists can get in the way of their dream Reflected Ceiling Plan. Ultra slim profile LEDs can bail you out -- if they're in the budget.

&&&&

You're well advised to work up your first bid, as above -- and then bid it insanely high. That is, THREE times as much as your calculations warrant. You want to LOSE this bid -- because you're a noobie. Then you can come in after the fiasco and see how the other poor (poorer) EC performed the work.

You'll discover that WHEN you get paid is a huge issue. GC in new builds are DEADBEATS as a rule. That's why you're being given the chance of a lifetime. His prior EC (victim) is now burned or bankrupt.

You'll also discover that you need boiler plate in your contract -- the stuff you've never encountered before. Stuff like how to get an EXTRA// Change Order signed off and PAID FOR. No, oral assent means nothing for EXTRAS. Believe it.

You'll also discover that the HO// Arch// GC can't make timely decisions... will expect you to drop everything to come over and shift a light... may want to re-frame -- and then you have to re-work your rough... on and on it goes.

It's for all of the above reasons that most EC posting here at ET would rather chop off their left hand than bid a new home build for ANY GC.

&&&

Most guys who have actually roped homes have no conception about the stuff hidden from their view: the fights over payment, getting timely decisions, obtaining a block of unobstructed working time. ( Many GCs revel in having subs working right on top of each other... stuff like laying flooring and trimming out lights in the same space at the same time. Heh. )

In sum, do your homework, save it, then Bid to Lose. You'll thank me later. Your first time in the soup you're SURE to screw up your estimate. :crying:


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

I agree with everything telsa said (must be the new moon) except the #6. No sense pulling #6 when you can pull #8.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

MHElectric said:


> For a new home?


Yes, if he’s new at this. With renos you can at least recover with change orders. With new builds, no such luck.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

splatz said:


> Did you go back over the jobs you have done and figure out how much they would have been per opening or per square foot?
> 
> The per opening and per square foot methods are obviously not super precise, and obviously cookie cutter, they are not going to make you the same money every time.
> 
> ...


This how it’s supposed to be done but, you competitor doesn’t have a business and is working for wages. 
I have one guy with residential experience and he will smoke the most seasoned journeyman we have if a rope job comes up.
It’s just the business.
I constantly search for a house to wire but, I know I’ll lose my ass if I don’t have two or three residential guys to work them.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> I agree with everything telsa said (must be the new moon) except the #6. No sense pulling #6 when you can pull #8.


#6 aluminum. I hate seeing #6 copper run for 50A, such a waste of money.


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## Kevin (Feb 14, 2017)

HackWork said:


> #6 aluminum. I hate seeing #6 copper run for 50A, such a waste of money.


I thought there was an Ontario or Canadian code prohibiting aluminium for branch circuits, but now I can't find it...

Aluminium would be lovely to run for larger circuits.
@eddy current do you know the code I'm talking about?

Sent from my new phone. Autocorrect may have changed stuff.


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## Morg12345 (Jan 22, 2016)

Kevin_Essiambre said:


> HackWork said:
> 
> 
> > #6 aluminum. I hate seeing #6 copper run for 50A, such a waste of money.
> ...


#8 copper 40 amps #6 AL 40 amps..both ok for stove cuicuit on 40 amp breaker


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Morg12345 said:


> #8 copper 40 amps #6 AL 40 amps..both ok for stove cuicuit on 40 amp breaker


In the US, #6 aluminum is good for 50A. 

#8 copper is good for 50A when it is THHN, but #8 copper in romex cable is only good for 40A. So we have to use #6 copper romex for 50A.

So since the choice is between #6 copper and #6 aluminum, that is even more reason why it is better to use aluminum for the typical 50A residential loads, such as ranges.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Southeast Power said:


> This how it’s supposed to be done but, you competitor doesn’t have a business and is working for wages.
> I have one guy with residential experience and he will smoke the most seasoned journeyman we have if a rope job comes up.
> It’s just the business.
> I constantly search for a house to wire but, I know I’ll lose my ass if I don’t have two or three residential guys to work them.


Well I think the tempting mistake is to change the way it's done to try to win work; I think we all agree that's the way down the tube. 

If you find you're not competitive, you have to either find a way to do the work more efficiently, or you have to find other work.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

99cents said:


> Here’s the formula if you’re new at this:
> 
> Estimate your labor plus materials. Then multiply it by 2.5.
> 
> I’m not joking. I have mentioned this before and others agreed.


Or put another way, be prepared to very possibly lose money until you figure out what you can do with these jobs. 

But the OP has done some houses so he has some experience to look at.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Kevin_Essiambre said:


> I thought there was an Ontario or Canadian code prohibiting aluminium for branch circuits, but now I can't find it...
> 
> Aluminium would be lovely to run for larger circuits.
> @eddy current do you know the code I'm talking about?
> ...


No such code.

The issue is most devices are copper only.

insurance companies also ask if there is any aluminum. Many insurance companies will not insure the home owner or charge them a premium if there is any aluminum wiring in the house.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

eddy current said:


> No such code.
> 
> *The issue is most devices are copper only.*
> 
> insurance companies also ask if there is any aluminum. Many insurance companies will not insure the home owner or charge them a premium if there is any aluminum wiring in the house.


Even larger devices like dryer and range receptacles? All of them available down here are rated for both copper and aluminum. As are all breakers.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Aluminum Romex?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> Aluminum Romex?


We have SER cable. Not sure if you have something like it. #6 SER is very commonly used for ranges and other 50A receptacles.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> We have SER cable. Not sure if you have something like it. #6 SER is very commonly used for ranges and other 50A receptacles.


Nothing like it here.


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## Morg12345 (Jan 22, 2016)

HackWork said:


> 99cents said:
> 
> 
> > Aluminum Romex?
> ...


So that means the breaker and range receptical terminals must be rated for 
75°C..


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## Morg12345 (Jan 22, 2016)

Morg12345 said:


> HackWork said:
> 
> 
> > 99cents said:
> ...


Hack would use #14 15 amp cuicuits in living room bedrooms dineingroom and basment or #12 20 amp in those areas..the only time I see 15 amp receptacle cuicuits is in moble homes or modular what's your opinion?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Morg12345 said:


> Hack would use #14 15 amp cuicuits in living room bedrooms dineingroom and basment or #12 20 amp in those areas..the only time I see 15 amp receptacle cuicuits is in moble homes or modular what's your opinion?


The dining room needs to be 20A, as does most of the kitchen, bathrooms, and laundry circuit. Other than the few requirements, I would never install 15 amp general use outlet circuits. There is simply no reason to do it, and it makes you even less competitive.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Morg12345 said:


> Hack would use #14 15 amp cuicuits in living room bedrooms dineingroom and basment or #12 20 amp in those areas..the only time I see 15 amp receptacle cuicuits is in moble homes or modular what's your opinion?


All those circuits are 15 amp on 14 awg in Canada. We are limited to 12 devices per circuit though


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

99cents said:


> Aluminum Romex?


Nothing available (in Canada) smaller than 8 awg that I have seen


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

This is a constant argument back and forth on ET, but I also install #12 on receptacle circuits, not generally #14.

This area tends to have a lot of space heaters, portable AC units, and a crap ton of electronic equipment in use on single circuits. So I install what I do for that reason. If however I was roping tract homes, they would all be 14 and three bedrooms, the living room, and half the lights would be on a single circuit.

Just like they did with my house.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Switched said:


> This is a constant argument back and forth on ET, but I also install #12 on receptacle circuits, not generally #14.
> 
> This area tends to have a lot of space heaters, portable AC units, and a crap ton of electronic equipment in use on single circuits. So I install what I do for that reason. If however I was roping tract homes, they would all be 14 and three bedrooms, the living room, and half the lights would be on a single circuit.
> 
> Just like they did with my house.


I think most people would agree that if you are able to upsell 20A general-use outlet circuits, then it would be a good idea to do so.

Also, if you are not doing a lot of new houses, then you can do it "your way" without it being as detrimental. For example, I only do 6-10 renovations per year. So instead of using cheap nail-ons I will often use 1900 boxes and mud rings. It costs a little more, but it makes it easier for me. And the total extra material cost for the year is trivial since I don't do that many.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

If you decide to do this, here is my advice:

Don’t leave yourself exposed financially. You need to stay ahead of the game. That includes a deposit that adequately covers permits and materials. No deposit means you walk.

Your progress payments should look something like this - 20% deposit, 20% for service, 40% for rough-in, 20% for finishing. No progress payment means work stops until it’s paid. I was half way through rough-in once. The GC became bizarro and was phoning me with babble in the middle of the night. It turned out he was putting his money up his nose. I at least escaped alive. Ladders and materials were abandoned.

Make sure the GC is ready for you. Working half days and a few hours here and there at the GC’s whim is a guaranteed money loser. The only way you survive this job is with running shoes and long, hard days.

There are no freebies and no extras that aren’t paid for. Unless the specs say different, it’s bare minimum code. 

Chances are that, when you add your own amendments to the GC’s contract, he will say, “I’ll get back to you” and you will never hear from him again.

You’re really better off with small renos, service calls, etc. Fast turnaround, quick pay, next.


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## Morg12345 (Jan 22, 2016)

HackWork said:


> Switched said:
> 
> 
> > This is a constant argument back and forth on ET, but I also install #12 on receptacle circuits, not generally #14.
> ...


 Switched and Hack ,I have a question for you guys do you have a quick way of estimating how much wire and labor would be required for a house calculated by square footage or openings, or any other method that you might use now I've done a few but didn't keep track of things my badI have a couple really good helpers work twice fast as I can I'm 65 years old any advice is welcome now I have another one coming up I have detailed plans


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## Kevin (Feb 14, 2017)

eddy current said:


> Nothing available (in Canada) smaller than 8 awg that I have seen


I haven't seen anything aluminium smaller than #8 either.

Sent from my new phone. Autocorrect may have changed stuff.


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## Kevin (Feb 14, 2017)

eddy current said:


> No such code.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I swear I thought I saw a code about this. I've been scouring my 2015 OESC and 2018 CEC but cannot find it. This is making me frustrated lol.

Even If it's not the code I'm thinking of, I still cannot find anything similar, which I swear I thought I read somewhere. 

Leviton range receptacles and dryer receptacles are dual rated CU/AL.

I've never heard of an insurance company having issues with newer aluminium wiring, because it will be installed the meet current codes... or, at least should be...

Sent from my new phone. Autocorrect may have changed stuff.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

Morg12345 said:


> Switched and Hack ,I have a question for you guys do you have a quick way of estimating how much wire and labor would be required for a house calculated by square footage or openings, or any other method that you might use now I've done a few but didn't keep track of things my badI have a couple really good helpers work twice fast as I can I'm 65 years old any advice is welcome now I have another one coming up I have detailed plans


Yes, but truth be told it wouldn't be of any use to you. 

We do whole house rewires in San Francisco, with some of the highest labor rates around, and we use a lot of EMT in our work, not just NM.

We do it by opening. Each type of opening has an associated cost, containing labor and materials.

I have a assemblies for a standard receptacle opening, one for lighting controls, one for fixtures, one for cans, one for fans, appliance connections by type, etc....

Problem is non of that would be of any help or relevancy to you. I couldn't even use them if I was to do a new house. The materials and labor would be way off. 

That being said you can do this with a spreadsheet. Make a simple list of all activities; Homeruns, receptacles, switches, dimmers, smokies, basic fixtures, cans, etc. 

Then just begin to give some thought to how long each task typically takes you, that becomes your labor. How much material does it take, that becomes your materials.

For example, on a rewire we do the homeruns are many times piped, then we can run NM from the jbox to the actual device location. 

So my device assembly may contain:
1 - Side Screw Box
20' - 12-2 NM Cable
5 - NM Staples
6 - Wire Nuts
1 - Decora Receptacle
1 - 1G Decora Cover
1 - Labor Hour (This covers old device and box removal, enlarging the existing hole to accommodate the new larger box, drilling and fishing in the wire, etc.)

So all in may be $350 (or more) per opening. 

If you sit down and do this, it shouldn't take more than a few hours to do 80%-90% of the typical stuff we do. Then your good to go for estimating quickly with just a simple spreadsheet. Updates to labor and materials are not too difficult at that point either, if you set up the spreadsheet correctly.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

If I was doing NC, I would fire myself because I would be way too slow.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Switched said:


> If I was doing NC, I would fire myself because I would be way too slow.


Yeah, when I said that the typical new house roper was twice as fast as me, I was giving myself way too much credit.

People don't think it be like it does, but it do.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

Switched said:


> Yes, but truth be told it wouldn't be of any use to you.
> 
> We do whole house rewires in San Francisco, with some of the highest labor rates around, and we use a lot of EMT in our work, not just NM.
> 
> ...


Switched, do you guys really pipe in home runs in SF?? I thought Chicago and NY were the only places that required stuff like that?


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

HackWork said:


> Yeah, when I said that the typical new house roper was twice as fast as me, I was giving myself way too much credit.
> 
> People don't think it be like it does, but it do.


Its like that anytime you get into a new part of the trade. Strip mall renos, new homes, lighting retofits, generators, whatever. You will never realize how slow you are until you work next to someone who does it everyday for a living.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

MHElectric said:


> Switched, do you guys really pipe in home runs in SF?? I thought Chicago and NY were the only places that required stuff like that?


The houses and mixed use buildings here either have basements and/or garages on the first level with living spaces above. We can't have any exposed NM, MC, Flex, etc. below 8' AFF. 

So yeah, we pipe a lot. Our services are required to be in rigid, and from the meter to a disconnect we have to use rigid as well. 

But I think up to 6 stories you can use NM cable as long as it is concealed. It is just that most basements and garages stay unfinished, so we install a lot of conduit. We carry a lot more commercial stuff than standard residential stuff.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Kevin_Essiambre said:


> I swear I thought I saw a code about this. I've been scouring my 2015 OESC and 2018 CEC but cannot find it. This is making me frustrated lol.
> 
> Even If it's not the code I'm thinking of, I still cannot find anything similar, which I swear I thought I read somewhere.
> 
> ...


Nope, no such code, never was one. Urban myth.

Insurance companies don’t know the difference between newer aluminum and older. It’s just a simple question on the application with a little box to check. “Is there aluminum wiring, yes or no?” 
Even if you install copper tails and get an inspection from ESA, some insurance companies will not insure you and most others will charge a premium compared to if you had no aluminum conductors.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

eddy current said:


> Nope, no such code, never was one. Urban myth.
> 
> Insurance companies don’t know the difference between newer aluminum and older. It’s just a simple question on the application with a little box to check. “Is there aluminum wiring, yes or no?”
> Even if you install copper tails and get an inspection from ESA, some insurance companies will not insure you and most others will charge a premium compared to if you had no aluminum conductors.


Aluminum service conductors aren't commonly used there?


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## Kevin (Feb 14, 2017)

HackWork said:


> Aluminum service conductors aren't commonly used there?


They are super common, so much, that I don't know anyone that uses copper.

Sent from my new phone. Autocorrect may have changed stuff.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I'm not seeing much aluminum in anything other than the service these days. Maybe somebodies using it for the range in SER, but I haven't seen much lately.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

nrp3 said:


> I'm not seeing much aluminum in anything other than the service these days. Maybe somebodies using it for the range in SER, but I haven't seen much lately.


In newer installations I don’t think I’ve ever seen copper run for something like a 100 amp sub panel feeder, it’s always aluminum SER.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

HackWork said:


> In newer installations I don’t think I’ve ever seen copper run for something like a 100 amp sub panel feeder, it’s always aluminum SER.


That's true, and I use it for generator feeders as well. Forgotten about that.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

HackWork said:


> Aluminum service conductors aren't commonly used there?


Yes they are.

But when it comes to homeowner insurance, they don’t see those conductors. Even a home inspector won’t see them. if they take the panel cover off, they can’t see the service conductors because of the extra service area that our panels come with and they assume all wiring is copper.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

eddy current said:


> Yes they are.
> 
> But when it comes to homeowner insurance, they don’t see those conductors. Even a home inspector won’t see them. if they take the panel cover off, they can’t see the service conductors because of the extra service area that our panels come with and they assume all wiring is copper.


Ignorance is bliss I guess :biggrin:


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## mofos be cray (Nov 14, 2016)

Kevin_Essiambre said:


> eddy current said:
> 
> 
> > No such code.
> ...


I thought there was such a rule in the cec as well


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

mofos be cray said:


> I thought there was such a rule in the cec as well


Nope. Like already stated earlier, you canâ€™️t buy aluminum smaller than #8 so itâ€™️s not used for smaller branch circuits anymore, but there is no code restriction in the CEC. 

There is a code restriction for aluminum conductors used in fire alarm, copper only. 32-100(1)
There also used to be a restriction for grounding conductors, but that was changed to allow aluminum in the 2015 CEC.


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## Kevin (Feb 14, 2017)

mofos be cray said:


> I thought there was such a rule in the cec as well


I will not stop until I've read my code books cover to cover again. I swear I read something somewhere and now I need to be 100000% sure.

Sent from my new phone. Autocorrect may have changed stuff.


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## Thirty-eight (Mar 2, 2020)

Do you guys who bid 5 bucks per sq foot actually make money on the house? Provide cans/closet lights? Temp/service included in price? That just seems low considering material would eat up at least half of that. 

I’m pretty green at estimating residential but my price per sq ft on the last place I priced would probably be closer to 12 bucks per square foot. Material x 35%, plus what I think the job would take in hours x 55 dollars.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

Thirty-eight said:


> Do you guys who bid 5 bucks per sq foot actually make money on the house? Provide cans/closet lights? Temp/service included in price? That just seems low considering material would eat up at least half of that.
> 
> I’m pretty green at estimating residential but my price per sq ft on the last place I priced would probably be closer to 12 bucks per square foot. Material x 35%, plus what I think the job would take in hours x 55 dollars.



Hell no those guys don't make money, they lose everything, but they are damn busy while going out of business!


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## Kevin (Feb 14, 2017)

Thirty-eight said:


> Do you guys who bid 5 bucks per sq foot actually make money on the house? Provide cans/closet lights? Temp/service included in price? That just seems low considering material would eat up at least half of that.
> 
> I’m pretty green at estimating residential but my price per sq ft on the last place I priced would probably be closer to 12 bucks per square foot. Material x 35%, plus what I think the job would take in hours x 55 dollars.


I think it would depend on how many walls there are. 

Think about a large open concept house. Not many interior walls = less receptacles. 

Think about the same exterior size as that open concept building, but with walls everywhere. This building requires way more receptacles than the open concept due to the wall space.

That's my 2 cents. But I also can't comment much on the estimating side. I've only done a few.

Sent from my new phone. Autocorrect may have changed stuff.


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

99cents said:


> If you decide to do this, here is my advice:
> 
> Don’t leave yourself exposed financially. You need to stay ahead of the game. That includes a deposit that adequately covers permits and materials. No deposit means you walk.
> 
> ...


You bring up some excellent points. Not only the GC but also other trades involved that never show up or just don't know what they are doing. Nothing ever seems to go as planed. Cut wires, broken boxes all kinds of stuff can happen. Building a house is a teem effort and if you are not familiar with people in the other trades it can be a nightmare. It's hard to place blame on others or prove anything when you are doing trim out and you find something wrong. Try proving who did it. Now your stuck with the extra cost.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

MHElectric said:


> Its like that anytime you get into a new part of the trade. Strip mall renos, new homes, lighting retofits, generators, whatever. You will never realize how slow you are until you work next to someone who does it everyday for a living.


I'm not particularly fast at any one particular aspect of the trade, but I am extremely good at all of them. :brows:


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