# Service upgrade pics



## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

Your riser should be strapped, and your ground rod, unless its a 10 footer, needs to be completely in the ground.

Otherwise lookin good!

~Matt


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

Thanks for sharing!
:thumbsup:


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## user438 (Jun 6, 2007)

It was a sweet job too, the owners are away so I took all week to do it, used it as a fill in job...Couple hours here and there. First Service change I did that I didn't have rush around to make sure they had power back by 4pm


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## LARMGUY (Aug 22, 2010)

Nice and clean!

I especially like the CATV installation techniques in the first few pics. :no:

Looks to me like you cleaned up their mess a bit. :thumbsup:


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Not saying there's anything wrong with it, but I'm curious why phase tape on a single phase service?


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## Triple Nickel (Jul 15, 2010)

*Entertaining*

Nice slide show!
:thumbsup:


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Was that a GEC conductor on the waterpipe? If so I bet it is not within the first 5 ft of where it enters the structure.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

jwjrw said:


> Was that a GEC conductor on the waterpipe? If so I bet it is now within the first 5ft of where it enters the structure.


I was thinking the same thing. Are you guys on wells out there?


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## user438 (Jun 6, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> Not saying there's anything wrong with it, but I'm curious why phase tape on a single phase service?


 
Because inspectors here require it


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## user438 (Jun 6, 2007)

jwjrw said:


> Was that a GEC conductor on the waterpipe? If so I bet it is not within the first 5 ft of where it enters the structure.


 
That is the cold water bond, I have 2 rods there, just didn't take a pic of second one


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> Not saying there's anything wrong with it, but I'm curious why phase tape on a single phase service?


I do the same thing.. if I lose a leg, it makes it easier to troubleshoot the problem. 

More of a personal preference.. like using the *going rate* when ever possible


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Rich R said:


> That is the cold water bond, I have 2 rods there, just didn't take a pic of second one


Is it a bond or a grounding electrode conductor?


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Rich R said:


> Because inspectors here require it


 
Is it a written amendment to your state or county? It's not a NEC requirement.


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## user438 (Jun 6, 2007)

jwjrw said:


> Is it a bond or a grounding electrode conductor?


 
It is a bond using the GEC which was run right past it to get to the second rod, there is no requirement that I run a separate bond


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

MDShunk said:


> Not saying there's anything wrong with it, but I'm curious why phase tape on a single phase service?





Rich R said:


> Because inspectors here require it


It never surprises me anymore when I hear of stupid things inspectors "require". This is just another.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Rich R said:


> It is a bond using the GEC which was run right past it to get to the second rod, there is no requirement that I run a separate bond


 
What I'm asking is do you have a copper water line in contact with the earth for 10 feet or more? If so do you have your GEC connected to within 5FT of where it ENTERS the structure?


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## user438 (Jun 6, 2007)

jwjrw said:


> Is it a written amendment to your state or county? It's not a NEC requirement.


 
I think it came from the South Florida Building code which s no longer enforced as far as I know for Electrical, but most inspectors have something to say about it if you don't phase tape. I have never failed a job because of it but I do it just because it only takes 2 seconds and don't feel like arguing withe inspector


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

I like that you cleaned up the low volt as well tho I couldn't tell if it was connected to the GEC.

Nice job

off topic but
I also noticed your Milwaukee tools Power plus, I have the same sets batteries suck (great tools tho) You may allready know this but you can buy the 18v series (NOT the m18) and use them in those tools, they last much longer. Of course you will need the 18v charger but the 18v charger will charge the older power plus batteries. You can usually find a set of 2 batts and charger for about 225

Everyone has been selling the power plus stuff on CL and ebay for peanuts and a handshake I been buying them up, I got a nice brand new powerpluss Hammer drill with an sds max chuck for $60


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## user438 (Jun 6, 2007)

jwjrw said:


> What I'm asking is do you have a copper water line in contact with the earth for 10 feet or more? If so do you have your GEC connected to within 5FT of where it ENTERS the structure?


 
There is a PVC water line to house and changes to copper where it enters. Even if it was copper for 10' or more I'm only required to bond 5' from entrance to house if I am using it as a Grounding electrode. I have my 2 electrodes (2 rods) and I bonded the water at a convienent point


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## user438 (Jun 6, 2007)

gold said:


> I like that you cleaned up the low volt as well tho I couldn't tell if it was connected to the GEC.
> 
> Nice job
> 
> ...


 
Yeah I still have to go back and run a new 2 1/2" PVC from meter can to hand hole at street. I have to put an external ground bar and ground the CTV and phone line and also strap the riser.

Yeah the batteries that came with it last like 3 months, I started to get them rebuilt for $40 each and last a lot longer


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Rich R said:


> There is a PVC water line to house and changes to copper where it enters. Even if it was copper for 10' or more I'm only required to bond 5' from entrance to house if I am using it as a Grounding electrode. I have my 2 electrodes (2 rods) and I bonded the water at a convienent point


If I understand what your are trying to say not quite. If the waterpipe was 10ft in contact with the earth it MUST be your GEC and the two rods supplemental. You would not be "bonding the waterpipe system within 5ft"
It is your Grounding electrode.


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## user438 (Jun 6, 2007)

jwjrw said:


> If I understand what your are trying to say not quite. If the waterpipe was 10ft in contact with the earth it MUST be your GEC and the two rods supplemental. You would not be "bonding the waterpipe system within 5ft"
> It is your Grounding electrode.


I hear this all the time, and have never failed an inspection because of it. It does not say in the code that I "Must" use the cold water pipe as an electrode.. it says if I do use it as an electrode I have to bond it 5' from entrance


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Rich R said:


> I hear this all the time, and have never failed an inspection because of it. It does not say in the code that I "Must" use the cold water pipe as an electrode.. it says if I do use it as an electrode I have to bond it 5' from entrance


You hear it all the time for a reason. :whistling2:
You and your inspectors are wrong. Not having failed an inspection because of this proves that.

jwjrw is spot on with his interpretation.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

_*250.50 Grounding Electrode System.*
All grounding electrodes as described in 250.52(A)(1) through (A)(7) that are present at each building or structure served shall be bonded together to form *the grounding electrode system*. Where none of these grounding electrodes exist, one or more of the grounding electrodes specified in 250.52(A)(4) through (A)(8) shall be installed and used._

*
250.52 Grounding Electrodes.
(A) Electrodes Permitted for Grounding.
(1) Metal Underground Water Pipe.*_ A metal underground water pipe in direct contact with the earth for 3.0 m (10 ft) or more (including any metal well casing bonded to the pipe) and electrically continuous (or made electrically continuous by bonding around insulating joints or insulating pipe) to the points of connection of the grounding electrode conductor and the bonding conductors. Interior metal water piping located more than 1.52 m (5 ft) from the point of entrance to the building shall not be used as a part of the grounding electrode system or as a conductor to interconnect electrodes that are part of the grounding electrode system._


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Speedy Petey said:


> _*250.50 Grounding Electrode System.*_
> _All grounding electrodes as described in 250.52(A)(1) through (A)(7) that are present at each building or structure served shall be bonded together to form *the grounding electrode system*. Where none of these grounding electrodes exist, one or more of the grounding electrodes specified in 250.52(A)(4) through (A)(8) shall be installed and used._
> 
> 
> ...


 
Kinda hard to argue with that ain't it.:whistling2::laughing:

The code is tough to understand. I'm still learning myself. But speedy is correct. Your inspectors are wrong.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

I understand what you guys are saying, code wise.
What I'm wondering is what you think Rich should have done differently.


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## user438 (Jun 6, 2007)

jwjrw said:


> Kinda hard to argue with that ain't it.:whistling2::laughing:
> 
> The code is tough to understand. I'm still learning myself. But speedy is correct. Your inspectors are wrong.


I can argue with it, It says that they must be "bonded together" it does not say that it must bonded within 5'

It says I must bond it within 5' if I use it as 1 of my grounding electrodes


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## user438 (Jun 6, 2007)

Rudeboy said:


> I understand what you guys are saying, code wise.
> What I'm wondering is what you think Rich should have done differently.


 
In my case it don't matter since the water service is pvc, but I still disagree with the interpetation


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

Riches method is pretty common practice here, I suppose all of our inspectors could be wrong as well but I dont see Where it says it MUST be used as a grounding electrode only that it says it must be bonded to the grounding electrode system. It must be within 5 feet IF it is used as a grounding electrode.


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

In fact the use of the word "PERMITTED" and not the word SHALL is very evidant that it is NOT required to use ANY specific method desribed in any sub paragraph of 250.52(a) If it were Required it would be preceeded with the word "SHALL"


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

gold said:


> In fact the use of the word "PERMITTED" and not the word SHALL is very evidant that it is NOT required to use ANY specific method desribed in any sub paragraph of 250.52(a) If it were Required it would be preceeded with the word "SHALL"




> *90.5 Mandatory Rules, Permissive Rules, and*
> *Explanatory Material.*
> *(A) Mandatory Rules. **Mandatory rules of this Code **are*
> *those that identify actions that are specifically required or*
> ...





> *as requirements of this *_*Code*_*.*
> ​




I found 08 in pdf so i put it in my sig​​​​​


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Is this really being argued? Metal UG water pipe meeting the requirements has to be used as an electrode and the GEC has to be connected within 5 feet of where the pipe enters the building.

Clear as an October sky.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

gold said:


> In fact the use of the word "PERMITTED" and not the word SHALL is very evidant that it is NOT required to use ANY specific method desribed in any sub paragraph of 250.52(a) If it were Required it would be preceeded with the word "SHALL"


Hmmm.....


_*250.50 Grounding Electrode System.*
All *grounding electrodes* as described in 250.52(A)(1) through (A)(7) *that are present* at each building or structure served *shall* be bonded together to form *the grounding electrode system*. Where none of these grounding electrodes exist, one or more of the grounding electrodes specified in 250.52(A)(4) through (A)(8) shall be installed and used._


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

ok, I reread a few times. Nothing says you must use the metal waterpipe as an electrode. It says you must bond all electrodes in the building, but as rich pointed out, nothing requiress you to use it as an electrode. If you aren't using it as an electrode it doesn't need to be bonded within that 5 feet. You could meet 250.104(a) by bonding to a water pipe in ANY accessable location.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

gold said:


> ok, I reread a few times. Nothing says you must use the metal waterpipe as an electrode. It says you must bond all electrodes in the building, but as rich pointed out, nothing requiress you to use it as an electrode. If you aren't using it as an electrode it doesn't need to be bonded within that 5 feet. You could meet 250.104(a) by bonding to a water pipe in ANY accessable location.


Really? Wow. OK.

I see it as very clear.
250.50 states all electrodes in *250.52(A)(1)* thru (A)(7) that are present MUST be bonded and become part of the GES. 
*250.52(A)(1)* is metallic underground water pipe and very clearly states the connection must be made within 5'.

Agree to disagree then I guess.


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

Speedy Petey said:


> Agree to disagree then I guess.


 
I understand what you saying and theres no angst intended here at all.

I think the lack of clarity lies in when the piece of pipe becomes an electrode?

In my opinion it becomes an electrode when you attach that GEC to it within 5 feet. Until then its only a piece of plumbing that requires bonding at any convieneint place.

250.52 list What is permitted to be used as an electrode
250.50 states that all *electrodes *presentbe bonded together. 

I dont think its the intent of 250.52 to *define* a waterpipe with 3 meter of contact with soil as an electrode but instead to *allow *its use as one.


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## user438 (Jun 6, 2007)

The problem lies in the fact that it says they must be "bonded" it only talks about the 5' within entrance when using it as a "permitted" electrode

I can see your viewpoint but here is mine on a real world level. I decide to bond my Cold water pipe within 5' of service and use it as 1 of my electrodes, I then install 1 ground rod and I am all good. 2 years later the water company who can care less about my electrode replaces the line with PVC ( which most of them do) now I only have 1 electrode.

My way I have 2 electrodes no matter what, it is not dependent at all on what some "douche" from the water company decides to do years down the road


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## user438 (Jun 6, 2007)

Speedy Petey said:


> Really? Wow. OK.
> 
> I see it as very clear.
> 250.50 states all electrodes in *250.52(A)(1)* thru (A)(7) that are present MUST be bonded and become part of the GES.
> ...


 
No it states that a "permitted" electrode must be bonded within 5'

250.52 Grounding Electrodes.
(A) *Electrodes Permitted for Grounding*.
(1) Metal Underground Water Pipe. A metal underground water pipe in direct contact with the earth for 3.0 m (10 ft) or more (including any metal well casing bonded to the pipe) and electrically continuous (or made electrically continuous by bonding around insulating joints or insulating pipe) to the points of connection of the grounding electrode conductor and the bonding conductors. Interior metal water piping located more than 1.52 m (5 ft) from the point of entrance to the building shall not be used as a part of the grounding electrode system or as a conductor to interconnect electrodes that are part of the grounding electrode system.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Rich R said:


> No it states that a "permitted" electrode must be bonded within 5'
> 
> 250.52 Grounding Electrodes.
> (A) *Electrodes Permitted for Grounding*.
> (1) Metal Underground Water Pipe. A metal underground water pipe in direct contact with the earth for 3.0 m (10 ft) or more (including any metal well casing bonded to the pipe) and electrically continuous (or made electrically continuous by bonding around insulating joints or insulating pipe) to the points of connection of the grounding electrode conductor and the bonding conductors. Interior metal water piping located more than 1.52 m (5 ft) from the point of entrance to the building shall not be used as a part of the grounding electrode system or as a conductor to interconnect electrodes that are part of the grounding electrode system.


 

Those are only permitted to be used if a water pipe or concrete encased electrode are not available. Even Mike H and the NEC handbook make this clear. If you ever move here what you are doing will not pass. If you read the first thing speedy posted again and actually try to comprehend what it is saying you will see. Heck even electricianmanscott agrees and he is a pathetic jackass. Luckily for you your inspectors are idiots.:thumbup:


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

jwjrw said:


> Heck even electricianmanscott agrees and he is a pathetic jackass. Luckily for you your inspectors are idiots.:thumbup:


Hell yeah. I'd rather be a pathetic jackass over an idiot any day. :thumbsup:

I can't beleive more people haven't chimed in on this. This one is so common knowledge and so clear I'd think these guys would trip over themselves to take the opportunity to rip the two lone dissenters. :laughing:


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Rich R said:


> I hear this all the time, and have never failed an inspection because of it. It does not say in the code that I "Must" use the cold water pipe as an electrode..


Actually it does say that if the water line qualifies as an electrode the NEC requires that you use it as one.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

gold said:


> Riches method is pretty common practice here, I suppose all of our inspectors could be wrong as well but I dont see Where it says it MUST be used as a grounding electrode only that it says it must be bonded to the grounding electrode system. It must be within 5 feet IF it is used as a grounding electrode.





> 250.50 Grounding Electrode System.
> *All grounding electrodes as described in 250.52(A)(1) through (A)(7) that are present at each building or structure served shall be bonded together to form the grounding electrode system.*





> 250.52 Grounding Electrodes.
> (A) Electrodes Permitted for Grounding.
> (1) Metal Underground Water Pipe. A metal underground
> water pipe in direct contact with the earth for 3.0 m
> ...


It is very clear.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Rich R said:


> I hear this all the time, and have never failed an inspection because of it. It does not say in the code that I "Must" use the cold water pipe as an electrode.. it says if I do use it as an electrode I have to bond it 5' from entrance


 


It doesn't say "must" it says "shall"


same thing


you're wrong


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> It is very clear.


Bob, they both are too hard headed to accept they are reading the article wrong. Their inspectors too. Speedy posted the article also. Didn't help.:laughing:


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> Bob, they both are too hard headed to accept they are reading the article wrong.



But this time _I_ said it. :laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

Bob Badger said:


> It is very clear.


 
It says "ALL ELECTRODES present must be bonded together"

When does a water pipe become an electrode?

If you dont attach the GEC to the first 5' then it doesnt become an electrode.

Theres really no need to start the name calling and **** spewing in this thread too.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

gold said:


> It says "ALL ELECTRODES present must be bonded together"
> 
> When does a water pipe become an electrode?
> 
> ...


It doesn't say it becomes an electrode only if you attach a gec to it. It says if it is there and meets the qualifications in shall be used as an electrode.


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

Bob
AS I said above 250.52 requires ELECTRODES to be bonded together. It doesnt mandate anywhere that the waterpipe be used as an electrode.

If your not using it as an electrode then the only bonding requirements are 250.104(a) That says something like WHERE THE WATER PIPE ISNT USED AS AN ELECTRODE ... goes on to allow you to bond at any accessable location.


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

electricmanscott said:


> It doesn't say it becomes an electrode only if you attach a gec to it. It says if it is there and meets the qualifications in shall be used as an electrode.


ok, it doesnt say that it IS an electrode either, in fact it specifically says that IT IS *PERMITTED TO BE USED* AS AN ELECTRODE.

No. It does not say that anywhere in the articles quoted. If I missed it please point it out.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

gold said:


> Bob
> AS I said above 250.52 requires ELECTRODES to be bonded together. It doesnt mandate anywhere that the waterpipe be used as an electrode.


And you are still wrong.

If an electrode exists at the property it must be used as an electrode.




> If your not using it as an electrode then the only bonding requirements are 250.104(a)



If there is a metal water pipe in contact with the earth for 10' at the property it is an electrode and must be used as one.

There is no exception to this. 




> 250.50 Grounding Electrode System.
> *All grounding electrodes as described in 250.52(A)(1) through (A)(7) that are present at each building or structure served shall be bonded together to form the grounding electrode system.*


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Gold, The fact that you are only quoting select words of the rule does nothing to validate your argument.

You are incorrect.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

gold said:


> ok, it doesnt say that it IS an electrode either, in fact it specifically says that IT IS *PERMITTED TO BE USED* AS AN ELECTRODE.


Yes you are right, that section i_t starts out_ telling us what things *are permitted* to be an electrode.

A metal folding chair buried in the dirt. - Not permitted as an electrode.

A metal water pipe in contact with the earth for 10' or more - Permitted to be used as an electrode.

But the section does not stop at the beginning it goes on to say if any of the permitted electrodes are present they must be used as part of the grounding electrode system.


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

Bob Badger said:


> Yes you are right, that section i_t starts out_ telling us what things *are permitted* to be an electrode.
> 
> A metal folding chair buried in the dirt. - Not permitted as an electrode.
> 
> ...


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

gold said:


> Where does it say that? 250.52 doesn't say that. It says the electrodes must be bonded together.
> 
> Show me where it says the water pipe must be used as an electrode.
> 
> ...


This is electrical 101, I am not wasting my Sunday on it.

Rock on. :laughing:

I have no idea how you figure you can bond electrodes into a bonding electrode system without using the electrodes as electrodes.


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

Pretty much a moot point anyway, I dont have the post count to be credable.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

gold said:


> Bob Badger said:
> 
> 
> > Yes you are right, that section i_t starts out_ telling us what things *are permitted* to be an electrode.
> ...


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> This is one of the silliest arguments I have EVER read.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


But the customer said he didn't want the water pipe bonded and you have to do what the customer wants.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Rich R said:


> I hear this all the time, and have never failed an inspection because of it. It does not say in the code that I "Must" use the cold water pipe as an electrode.. it says if I do use it as an electrode I have to bond it 5' from entrance


250.50 Grounding Electrode System. *All grounding electrodes *as described in 250.52(A)(1) through (A)(7) *that are present *at each building or structure served *shall be bonded together to form the grounding electrode system. *Where none of these grounding electrodes exist, one or more of the grounding electrodes specified in250.52(A)(4) through (A)(8) shall be installed and used. 



I'm no code guru but I think this is pretty clear.



Rudeboy said:


> I understand what you guys are saying, code wise.
> What I'm wondering is what you think Rich should have done differently.


I would have bonded it where the water service entered the building. Also I would have added the bonding jumper going from the utility side of the meter to the customer side of the meter.













gold said:


> Riches method is *pretty common practice* here, I suppose all of our inspectors could be wrong as well but I dont see Where it says it MUST be used as a grounding electrode only that it says it must be bonded to the grounding electrode system. It must be within 5 feet IF it is used as a grounding electrode.


.I have been toasted on this forum in the past buy trying to justify the "common practice" argument. In residential applications in Philly one ground rod will satisfy the inspectors.(when 2 is required by code in lieu of a test)



gold said:


> ok, I reread a few times. Nothing says you must use the metal waterpipe as an electrode. It says you must bond all electrodes in the building, but as rich pointed out, nothing requiress you to use it as an electrode. If you aren't using it as an electrode it doesn't need to be bonded within that 5 feet. You could meet 250.104(a) by bonding to a water pipe in ANY accessable location.


I disagree, I don't think the code allows you to chose if you want to use the water pipe as an electrode or not. 

All grounding electrodes as described in 250.52(A)(1) through (A)(7) that are present at each building or structure served *shall be bonded together to form the grounding electrode system.*

To my limited understanding it seems pretty clear that you have to use it.


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

electricmanscott said:


> But the customer said he didn't want the water pipe bonded and you have to do what the customer wants.


scott 
I don't recall mentioning anything about a customer jerkoff. You throw it at me I'll trow it back.

Mcclary
I stand by my interpretation untill someone can show me different. I have read the entire article many times. It list permitted electrodes, and requires all existing electrodes to be bonded together. It does not dictate that a water pipe MUST be used as an electrode. If it does show me where and I will stand corrected.


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

slickvic277 said:


> All grounding electrodes as described in 250.52(A)(1) through (A)(7) that are present at each building or structure served *shall be bonded together to form the grounding electrode system.*
> 
> To my limited understanding it seems pretty clear that you have to use it.


I am familiar wit 250.52 and 250.50 its been posted 100 times ITT.
It says all electrodes shall be bonded together. I get that. I also get that the water pipe is PERMITTED to be used as an electrode. If it used as an electrode you must connect the GEC within 5 feet of it entering the building. If you dont use it as an electrode you can bond the metal water pipes at any accessable location.

Not only does it NOT require you to use it as an electrode but it specifically instructs you how to bond it when you dont use it as an electrode.

Point.
The existance of a water pipe that meets the requirements of 250.52(A)(1) Does not Make it an electrode. 

Show me where the NEC REQUIRES an existing waterpipe to be used as an Electrode. It PERMITS it, it doesn't require it. It also requires all ELECTRODES be bonded together.

I understand If you use it as an electrode it must be bonded to form the electrode system. If you dont use it as an electrode you only need to meet the requirements of 250.104 by bonding it at any accessable point.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Bob Badger said:


> A metal folding chair buried in the dirt. - Not permitted as an electrode.




:laughing: :laughing: :laughing:


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

gold said:


> I am familiar wit 250.52 and 250.50 its been posted 100 times ITT.
> It says all electrodes shall be bonded together. I get that. I also get that the water pipe is PERMITTED to be used as an electrode. If it used as an electrode you must connect the GEC within 5 feet of it entering the building. If you dont use it as an electrode you can bond the metal water pipes at any accessable location.
> 
> Not only does it NOT require you to use it as an electrode but it specifically instructs you how to bond it when you dont use it as an electrode.
> ...


Is the electrode present? 

Yes it is.

Then you have to use it. :thumbup:


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## user438 (Jun 6, 2007)

Magnettica said:


> Is the electrode present?
> 
> Yes it is.
> 
> Then you have to use it. :thumbup:


 
It is not an electrode unless I make it an electrode. Until I attach a wire to it it is nothing more than a rusty old metal pipe underground installed by a plumber with a huge ass crack 30 years ago. To actually rely on a metal water pipe underground as part of your electrode system is stupid.

But of course you guys have all the answers since you are somehow able to post 5,000 post in a year

As I said 4 pages back the service to this house is PVC, so if you want to debate the issue make a new thread. The fact that the water service was changed to pvc just proves my point even more..to rely on another utilty's underground water pipe as a grounding electrode is remiss(irresponsible for all you hill billys)

People that challenge the code get things changed, If we all just took it face value without actually excepting any different views or interpertion we will still be using friction tape and solder on splices

I think some people are confused between a grounding electrode and bonding. Because you bond the water pipe 5' of entrance doesn't stop joe home owner from installing PVC inside, the rusted out metal water pipe that you now are using as one of your electrodes may or may not be there in 10 years. Do you think that the code is saying that you Must/shall use the water pipe because it is a better more reliable method ? No they are letting lazy asses use it instead of spending a whole $20 on a second rod or concrete encased electrode


----------



## user438 (Jun 6, 2007)

slickvic277 said:


> Also I would have added the bonding jumper going from the utility side of the meter to the customer side of the meter.


 
What do you mean Scrapple breath ? you would have ran another wire between the meter side and disconnect side ? It is already bonded by the neutral bar


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Rich R said:


> It is not an electrode unless I make it an electrode. Until I attach a wire to it it is nothing more than a rusty old metal pipe underground installed by a plumber with a huge ass crack 30 years ago. To actually rely on a metal water pipe underground as part of your electrode system is stupid.
> 
> But of course you guys have all the answers since you are somehow able to post 5,000 post in a year
> 
> ...


 


You are correct in that in your case this time it is not an electrode. It is not because it is pvc then changes to copper. What you are missing is the words" if present ". If a copper waterpipe is present ( that meets the definition of an electrode) you shall bond it within 5ft of where it enters the structure. That sentence does not give you the OPTION to use it as an electrode. It says SHALL. Even if you are just "bonding the water pipe" it still must be within 5 ft to stop "joe ho" from putting plastic in and unbonding the waterpipe system. You are dead wrong about this and too hard headed to accept that one of the mods on here teaches classes on the nec and knows the code. I'll say it again.....its a good thing your inspectors are idiots.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

This thread is embarrassing.


----------



## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

electricmanscott said:


> This thread is embarrassing.


 
Only for two of us...:whistling2:......I'm guessing you know which two. :laughing:


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Rich R said:


> But of course you guys have all the answers since you are somehow able to post 5,000 post in a year


Now this is just a silly statement.


Rich and Gold. You are both getting way too worked up over this, and are starting to sink to insults and snide remarks.


Personally I think this thread was over two pages ago, that's why I dropped out. 
Most of us see this as quite clear in what we believe. The two of you do not. That is fine since your inspectors feel the same as you, right or wrong. 

Let's leave it at that.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Rich R said:


> What do you mean Scrapple breath ? you would have ran another wire between the meter side and disconnect side ? It is already bonded by the neutral bar



I was talking about the water meter. That's why I posted the picture.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

electricmanscott said:


> But the customer said he didn't want the water pipe bonded and you have to do what the customer wants.


 

you funny man, you:whistling2:


----------



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Rich R said:


> It is not an electrode unless I make it an electrode. Until I attach a wire to it it is nothing more than a rusty old metal pipe underground installed by a plumber with a huge ass crack 30 years ago. To actually rely on a metal water pipe underground as part of your electrode system is stupid.
> 
> But of course you guys have all the answers since you are somehow able to post 5,000 post in a year
> 
> ...


 




As pointed out before, the words "if present" throw a wrench in your whole dream. 
If there is a metal underground pipe more than 10' buried, bringing water in, then it must be used as an electrode. There is no way around it.


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

mcclary's electrical said:


> As pointed out before, the words "if present" throw a wrench in your whole dream.
> If there is a metal underground pipe more than 10' buried, bringing water in, then it must be used as an electrode. There is no way around it.


I'd just throw in the towel...


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## user438 (Jun 6, 2007)

Speedy Petey said:


> Now this is just a silly statement.
> 
> 
> Rich and Gold. You are both getting way too worked up over this, and are starting to sink to insults and snide remarks.
> ...


 
Yes lets leave it that since you seem oblivious to the fact that the only insults in this thread came from posters besides Gold and myself

There was nothing snide or insulting in my posts, you just don't like what I said


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## user438 (Jun 6, 2007)

slickvic277 said:


> I was talking about the water meter. That's why I posted the picture.


 
Sorry Slick I totally missed that, I still think Scrapple is nasty though :thumbsup:


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## user438 (Jun 6, 2007)

jwjrw said:


> You are correct in that in your case this time it is not an electrode. It is not because it is pvc then changes to copper. What you are missing is the words" if present ". If a copper waterpipe is present ( that meets the definition of an electrode) you shall bond it within 5ft of where it enters the structure. That sentence does not give you the OPTION to use it as an electrode. It says SHALL. Even if you are just "bonding the water pipe" it still must be within 5 ft to stop "joe ho" from putting plastic in and unbonding the waterpipe system. You are dead wrong about this and too hard headed to accept that one of the mods on here teaches classes on the nec and knows the code. I'll say it again.....*its a good thing your inspectors are idiots*.


 
lol :thumbup: what article says I must bond the water pipe within 5' of entrance ? please don't get a paper cut flipping through the code book

Do me a favor jwjrw, just because I have 300 posts don't mean I started doing this work last week, i been doing this for 25 years, when you were still sucking on soda pop bottles I was bonding water pipes


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Rich R said:


> lol :thumbup: what article says I must bond the water pipe within 5' of entrance ? please don't get a paper cut flipping through the code book
> 
> Do me a favor jwjrw, just because I have 300 posts don't mean I started doing this work last week, i been doing this for 25 years, when you were still sucking on soda pop bottles I was bonding water pipes


Rich I never look at post count. You may even know the code better than me. The article that says you have to bond it within 5 ft has been posted at least 3 times. It's not one or two guys who think you are incorrect here. One guy is an NEC instructor( a very good one), many are guys with as much experience as you, heck even a union guy agrees with the majority you are wrong. Also ground rods are not present at a new house....they are added as supplemental when no other electrodes that meet the requirements are present. Best of luck to you!


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Rich R said:


> Yes lets leave it that since you seem oblivious to the fact that the only insults in this thread came from posters besides Gold and myself
> 
> There was nothing snide or insulting in my posts, you just don't like what I said


Yeah, that's what it is. 

It's not that I don't like it, it's that I don't agree with it. I am just now getting nasty about it.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Rich R said:


> Yes lets leave it that since you seem oblivious to the fact that the only insults in this thread came from posters besides Gold and myself
> 
> There was nothing snide or insulting in my posts, you just don't like what I said


Oh really? Much like you are wrong on the code issue at hand, you are also wrong with this statement. 





gold said:


> scott
> I don't recall mentioning anything about a customer jerkoff. You throw it at me I'll trow it back.





Rich R said:


> But of course you guys have all the answers since you are somehow able to post 5,000 post in a year
> 
> .to rely on another utilty's underground water pipe as a grounding electrode is remiss(irresponsible for all you hill billys)





Rich R said:


> What do you mean Scrapple breath ?





Rich R said:


> please don't get a paper cut flipping through the code book
> 
> Do me a favor jwjrw, just because I have 300 posts don't mean I started doing this work last week, i been doing this for 25 years, when you were still sucking on soda pop bottles I was bonding water pipes


----------



## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

jwjrw said:


> Rich I never look at post count. You may even know the code better than me. The article that says you have to bond it within 5 ft has been posted at least 3 times. It's not one or two guys who think you are incorrect here. One guy is an NEC instructor( a very good one), many are guys with as much experience as you, heck even a union guy agrees with the majority you are wrong. Also ground rods are not present at a new house....they are added as supplemental when no other electrodes that meet the requirements are present. Best of luck to you!


jwjrw,
I think the post count Rich was referring to was the general condescending nature of the comments directed toward us because we are questioning something that IS so generally excepted as a hard fact. I dont think either he or I are questioning anyones skill or professional status because they dont see our point. While so many are quick to point out we are WRONG or INCORRECT. Everyone to this point has failed to show me an article that supports that conclusion. With all due respect to petey, bob badger, vic, mag and everyone else who presented there side without the criticism, my interpritation will stand untill someone can quote something that faults it.
I will reiterate once again.

250.52 Does not DEFINE an electrode, it list 7 PERMITTED USES. IT DOES NOT contain the words SHALL BE USED in 250.52(A)(1)

However I recognize 250.50




> *250.50 Grounding Electrode System. *
> ​​*All grounding electrodes*​
> *as described in 250.52(A)(1) through (A)(6) that are*
> *present at each building or structure served shall be bonded*
> ...



I understand this as All electrodes that are permitted for use present must be used, and bonded together.​


Now I refer back to 252.52 it list the metal pipe as being permitted to be used as an electrode but DOES NOT REQUIRE IT (it does NOT contain the words *"SHAL BE"* *as mandatory rules do 90.5(a) it does however contain the words "permitted" as decribed in permissive rules 90.5(b*)). If 250.52 doesnt require it to be used as an electrode *with the words "shall be" as described in 90.5(a) *and 250.50 requires all *ELECTRODES* to be used and bonded together, then what OTHER article REQUIRES THE METAL WATER PIPE TO BE USED AS AN ELECTRODE?​


If you dont agree thats fine but if your going to dispute it please do so with more then rhetoric or status quo, quote a refernence or source.​


If you think its basic theory 101 to follow the interpritation of the heard without question then I suppose I proudly fail basic theory 101.​


Bring forth the B&hammer​


----------



## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

Jesus christ , man. It's in plain fukin english...Can you read?


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

jwjrw said:


> . Even if you are just "bonding the water pipe" it still must be within 5 ft to stop "joe ho" from putting plastic in and unbonding the waterpipe system.


Please, highlight for me where it says the metal water pipes must be bonded within 5 feet.




> 250.104 Bonding of Piping Systems and Exposed
> Structural Steel.​
> (A) Metal Water Piping.
> The metal water piping system
> ...


​​​​



jwjrw said:


> . You are dead wrong about this and too hard headed to accept that one of the mods on here teaches classes on the nec and knows the code.


 
We may be dead wrong, but you will have to rely on more then a mod ... that is a teacher ... on a forum ... on the internet to show we are dead wrong.

Post some content. Back it up.



jwjrw said:


> I'll say it again.....its a good thing your inspectors are idiots.


What value does that comment have?​


----------



## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

NolaTigaBait said:


> Jesus christ , man. It's in plain fukin english...Can you read?


If you dont agree thats fine but if your going to dispute it please do so with more then rhetoric or status quo, quote a refernence or source.​


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

250.52 a1 is where it says within 5 feet for resi..there are exceptions...also, you've posted the damn thing several times, thats why I question whether you can read.


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

NolaTigaBait said:


> 250.52 a1 is where it says within 5 feet for resi..there are exceptions...also, you've posted the damn thing several times, thats why I question whether you can read.


250.52 does not require bonding within 5 feet. It states 

water piping located more than 1.52 m (5 ft)
from the point of entrance to the building shall *not be used*
*as a part of the grounding electrode system or as a conductor*
*to interconnect electrodes that are part of the grounding*​
*electrode system.*

It does not prohibit bonding the water pipe outside of 5 feet with the words "shall not" nor does it require it with the words "shall"

250.104 gives provisions speceficaly for bonding the water pipe.

*250.104 Bonding of Piping Systems and Exposed*
*Structural Steel.*​

*(A) Metal Water Piping. *
​​The metal water piping system​
shall be bonded as required in (A)(1), (A)(2), or (A)(3) of
this section. The bonding jumper(s) shall be installed in
accordance with 250.64(A), (B), and (E). The points of attachment of the bonding jumper(s) shall be accessible.​​​

It only requires it to be accessable.​ 
Yes Nola, I can read.​


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

Take it as you will, I guess. I can't see where you says it is ok to bond the water more than 5 feet from entrance, but ok.


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

NolaTigaBait said:


> Take it as you will, I guess. I can't see where you says it is ok to bond the water more than 5 feet from entrance, but ok.


I'll take it exactly as the NEC tells me too. If someone can show me where I am wrong I am not above admitting it. 

Show me where it isnt ok to bond the water pipe outside the 5 feet.


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

NolaTigaBait said:


> Take it as you will, I guess. I can't see where you says it is ok to bond the water more than 5 feet from entrance, but ok.


I think your getting hung up on the hype. If you let go of beleiveing that you MUST use a water pipe if present as an electrode you'll get the requirements of 250.104 it gives you options. If you use the waterpipe as an electrode then yes you must bond it within 5 feet and NOT rely on the pipe outside of 5 feet to connect the GEC. BUT if you dont use the pipe as an electrode 250.104 requires that you must still bond it in any accessable location. So if Rich's service did indeed have a metal pipe that was in contact with earth for more the 3 meters and he installed it the same way, it would still be a legal installation.

If you use the waterpipe as an electrode the 250.104 is allready met.


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

Hype? Come on man, seriously?...I DO believe that you MUST use any electrodes if present...Soooooooooooooooooooooo. Ok , then.


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

I'm convinced that if the Badger and other good electricians can't convince you, then I sure as hell can't do it...So, just keep on keepin on.


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

NolaTigaBait said:


> I'm convinced that if the Badger and other good electricians can't convince you, then I sure as hell can't do it...So, just keep on keepin on.


 
Now we are back to post count and status quo. But still no actual content.


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

gold said:


> Now we are back to post count and status quo. But still no actual content.


Huh?...I'm pretty sure the Badger works closley with Mike Holt, who works closely with the NEC guys and so forth...So, that comment goes out the window.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

gold said:


> Now we are back to post count and status quo.


This comment is getting tiring, and lame. 

I have no idea what you point is. You've been around here *longer* than most. 
Maybe the others can use _that_ argument? Whadya think?


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

NolaTigaBait said:


> Huh?...I'm pretty sure the Badger works closley with Mike Holt, who works closely with the NEC guys and so forth...So, that comment goes out the window.


 
So your saying I must be wrong because Bob thinks so and he knows Mike Holt and Mike works with guys who work on the NEC panel. Is that your argument Nola? This is exactly what I mean when I use the term POST COUNT. If thats your argument you win because I certainly can't dispute it, nor would I bother. Other then to say Mike and Bobs nuts must be a mile long from people swinging from them. 

I was never actually expecting someone to really use something like this as an argument.

If you dont agree thats fine but if your going to argue it, post a reference or some kind of content to back it up OTHER THEN I KNOW BOB AND HE KNOWS MIKE ....


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

Are you really that dumb?...I'm not saying that they ae infallible...I'm saying that they are well respected guys that know the code. Nothing to do with post count.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> A metal folding chair buried in the dirt. - Not permitted as an electrode


I think one of us should propose that for the next NEC cycle just to see the response:jester:


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

Speedy Petey said:


> This comment is getting tiring, and lame.
> 
> I have no idea what you point is. You've been around here *longer* than most.
> Maybe the others can use _that_ argument? Whadya think?


Your right. I refer to post count I should refer to status quo. I think nolas post proves it he is actually saying he disagrees with me because bob does. You contribute to this as well, while you certainly have my respect as an electrician, you have directed comments toward new members that were condescending and IMO uncalled for as a moderator. Often followed by thanks and agreeing comments. This has created an environment of hostility toward newer members and members who arent as active. You said yourself I have been here longer then most, and it is very obvious and frustrating to me because this forum hasnt always been this way, its a farely recent development. Understand tho speedy it isnt my intention to criticise you, or this forum. I'm answering what I feal is an honest question about my own recent hostility with the most honest answer I can give you. That being said if you want to discuss it further we should do it in pm. I would really like to keep this thread on topic. If your actually reading and following my points I think for someone with your background it shouldn't be too much of a stretch to at least acknowledge some merit in my points.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Speedy Petey said:


> This comment is getting tiring, and lame.
> 
> I have no idea what you point is. You've been around here *longer* than most.
> Maybe the others can use _that_ argument? Whadya think?


I wouldn't even use that lame argument. I agree with the Badger though, not, because of post count, or knowing MH but because he's right<key word there.


----------



## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

Jlarson said:


> I wouldn't even use that lame argument. I agree with the Badger though, not, because of post count, or knowing MH but because he's right<key word there.


Yet neither you nor he was able to back it up with any content so your post is moot.

I will reiterate again to stay on topic.

250.52 Does not DEFINE an electrode, it list 7 PERMITTED USES. IT DOES NOT contain the words SHALL BE USED in 250.52(A)(1)

However I recognize 250.50


Quote:

*250.50 Grounding Electrode System. *
​​*All grounding electrodes*​*as described in 250.52(A)(1) through (A)(6) that are*
*present at each building or structure served shall be bonded*
*together to form the grounding electrode system. Where*
*none of these grounding electrodes exist, one or more of*
*the grounding electrodes specified in 250.52(A)(4) through **(A)(7) shall be installed and used.*


I understand this as All electrodes that are permitted for use and present must be used, and bonded together. 

The ELECTRODE must be present. 


Now I refer back to 252.52 it list the metal pipe as being permitted to be used as an electrode but DOES NOT REQUIRE IT (it does NOT contain the words *"SHAL BE"* *as mandatory rules do 90.5(a) it does however contain the words "permitted" as decribed in permissive rules 90.5(b*)). If 250.52 doesnt require it to be used as an electrode *with the words "shall be" as described in 90.5(a) *and 250.50 requires all *ELECTRODES* to be used and bonded together, then what OTHER article REQUIRES THE METAL WATER PIPE TO BE USED AS AN ELECTRODE?​ 
*IF IT WERE MANDATORY TO USE THE WATER PIPE AS AN ELECTRODE IF IT EXIST IT WOULD, BY VERY EXPLANATION OF MANDATORY GIVEN IN 90.5(A), CONTAIN THE WORDS "SHALL BE" *

SHOW ME WHERE I AM WRONG, SHOW ME WHERE THE NEC REQUIRES A WATER PIPE TO BE USED AS AN ELECTRODE WITH THE WORDS SHALL BE.

250.50 / 250.52 DOES NOT REQUIRE IT TO BE USED AS AN ELECTRODE, IT REQUIRES THEM TO BE BONDED IF THERE USED.

No need to post the same articles I can recite them.


----------



## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Rich R said:


> It is not an electrode unless I make it an electrode. Until I attach a wire to it it is nothing more than a rusty old metal pipe underground installed by a plumber with a huge ass crack 30 years ago. To actually rely on a metal water pipe underground as part of your electrode system is stupid.
> 
> But of course you guys have all the answers since you are somehow able to post 5,000 post in a year
> 
> ...



You should really take a minute and read this article. It's not necessarily about section 250.50 but the effects of bonding to an electrode. It's a useful article and who knows maybe you'll learn something. 

from EC&M magazine, 2006


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Why I do believe I win

250.50 Grounding Electrode System. All grounding electrodes
as described in 250.52(A)(1) through (A)(7) that are
present at each building or structure served shall be bonded
together to form the grounding electrode system. Where
none of these grounding electrodes exist, one or more of
the grounding electrodes speciﬁed in 250.52(A)(4) through
(A)(8) shall be installed and used.

250.52 Grounding Electrodes.
(A) Electrodes Permitted for Grounding.
(1) Metal Underground Water Pipe. A metal underground
water pipe in direct contact with the earth for 3.0 m
(10 ft) or more (including any metal well casing bonded to
the pipe) and electrically continuous (or made electrically
continuous by bonding around insulating joints or insulating
pipe) to the points of connection of the grounding electrode
conductor and the bonding conductor


----------



## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

Jlarson said:


> Why I do believe I win
> 
> 250.50 Grounding Electrode System. All grounding electrodes
> as described in 250.52(A)(1) through (A)(7) that are
> ...


This is the same thing everyone else posted. I appreciate your effort at least your trying and not relying on someone elses say so. Neither of those articles require the use of the metal water pipe as an electrode even if a water pipe is present.


----------



## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

gold said:


> That being said if you want to discuss it further we should do it in pm. I would really like to keep this thread on topic. If your actually reading and following my points I think for someone with your background it shouldn't be too much of a stretch to at least acknowledge some merit in my points.


I will fully acknowledge your points and your interpretation of this. I have stated that I do not agree, that is why I posts the code quotes so early in this thread. I read it as very clear, but I can see how one might see it otherwise. 

I see the points you are trying to make, but I feel you are taking it out of context. In one place it is saying "electrodes permitted". I get that. But in a more important place it is saying any and all of those "permitted" electrodes, *if they exist*, MUST be used....as an electrode.

I really don't want to argue the point any more, I am just explaining my position as best I can.


----------



## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

gold said:


> I will reiterate again to stay on topic.
> 
> 250.52 Does not DEFINE an electrode, it list 7 PERMITTED USES. IT DOES NOT contain the words SHALL BE USED in 250.52(A)(1)
> 
> ...


Actually read and follow what I am putting up here dont just skim through it. Posting 250.50 / 250.52 over and over doesnt change it. I understand it clearly. Try reading 90.5 then re read 250.50 then 250.52 then all of 250.104 with 90.5 in mind.


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

gold said:


> This is the same thing everyone else posted. I appreciate your effort at least your trying and not relying on someone elses say so. Neither of those articles require the use of the metal water pipe as an electrode even if a water pipe is present.


Oh, I get what you are saying now it think. You are saying that it you as an EC on a service change is only required to use the water if a wire was connected to it by someone else before you. Operating under, it's only an electrode if you connect a wire to it.


----------



## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

Speedy Petey said:


> I will fully acknowledge your points and your interpretation of this. I have stated that I do not agree, that is why I posts the code quotes so early in this thread. I read it as very clear, but I can see how one might see it otherwise.
> 
> I see the points you are trying to make, but I feel you are taking it out of context. In one place it is saying "electrodes permitted". I get that. But in a more important place it is saying any and all of those "permitted" electrodes, *if they exist*, MUST be used....as an electrode.
> 
> I really don't want to argue the point any more, I am just explaining my position as best I can.


 
Thank you, I appreciate that you at least acknowledge there is merit even tho you disagree.


----------



## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

Jlarson said:


> Oh, I get what you are saying now it think. You are saying that it you as an EC on a service change is only required to use the water if a wire was connected to it by someone else before you. Operating under, it's only an electrode if you connect a wire to it.


Your getting alot closer. What I am saying is that nothing requires you to use the waterpipe as an electrode, it only requires you to bond all electrodes together. Nothing defines the existance of a waterpipe as an electrode. Nor does anything require you to use it if it exist. It allows it but goes no further.


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

gold said:


> Your getting alot closer. What I am saying is that nothing requires you to use the waterpipe as an electrode, it only requires you to bond all electrodes together. Nothing defines the existance of a waterpipe as an electrode. Nor does anything require you to use it if it exist. It allows it but goes no further.


Oh, that's what you mean, that actually makes some sense now that I read it again. And now that I think about it some more I think the water as an electrode could be dangerous. 

Think about it you have 2 houses on the same transformer and they both have metal water that connects to a metal main. One house looses it neutral, some of the current travels through the water services meaning it goes through the 2 water meters. 

So along comes a water meter guy to chance one of the 2 meters and he goes to remove a meter and becomes a parallel path of resistance or completes the circuit if he has taken the meter out.


----------



## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

Jlarson said:


> Oh, that's what you mean, that actually makes some sense now that I read it again. And now that I think about it some more I think the water as an electrode could be dangerous.
> 
> Think about it you have 2 houses on the same transformer and they both have metal water that connects to a metal main. One house looses it neutral, some of the current travels through the water services meaning it goes through the 2 water meters.
> 
> So along comes a water meter guy to chance one of the 2 meters and he goes to remove a meter and becomes a parallel path of resistance or completes the circuit if he has taken the meter out.


IMO your better served isolateing your water pipes from your neighbors but it would only be effective if there was a device that would interupt the water flow as well. It would reduce the chance of a fault current from a neighbor on your GEC.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

gold said:


> Your getting alot closer. What I am saying is that nothing requires you to use the waterpipe as an electrode,


And you are still mistaken. 




> Nothing defines the existance of a waterpipe as an electrode.


250.52(A)(1) does exactly that.



> Nor does anything require you to use it if it exist. It allows it but goes no further.


The first sentence of 250.50 requires it.

This has nothing to do with post counts, this has to do with facts.

Rock on, keep you head stuck in the sand and ignore the facts it don't matter to me.:thumbsup:


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Gold and Rich, here is a mailing from the state of MA explaining to GCs that is a concrete electrode exists it must be used.

They have no post count but they are responsible for the NEC in MA.


----------



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Below I will post a "ROP" which is part of the code making cycles.

The 'panel statement' are the comments of the people _that write the NEC_ notice what they say.




> *5-119 Log #1882 NEC-P05
> (250-50 Exception (New) )
> 
> Final Action:* Reject
> ...


Take the above with the what 250.52(A)(1) says ..




> *Interior metal water piping located more than 1.52 m (5 ft) from the point of entrance to the building shall not be used as a part of the grounding electrode system or as a conductor to interconnect electrodes that are part of the grounding electrode system.*


... means what is shown in the earlier photos is a violation.

The only time 250.104 comes into things is when there is no water pipe electrode, like when the water service is plastic. If the water supply is plastic but the interior piping is metal you can bond that interior metal piping at any location as 250.104 allows.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Gold,

All I know is that if you came to my city and tried to do what he did you would not pass inspection.:no:....... If I went to your city I would pass doing it my way......:yes:


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

jwjrw said:


> Gold,
> 
> All I know is that if you came to my city and tried to do what he did you would not pass inspection.:no:....... If I went to your city I would pass doing it my way......:yes:


If you went to ANY city with a competent inspector his way would not pass.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

This thread is still going......HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA......


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

Bob
You have certainly posted an abundance of evidance proving all existing electrodes must be bonded together. However I am not disputeing that. You have not posted anything that requires the water pipe to be used as an electrode.


It is permtted (hence the use of the word "permitted" and not "shall be") to be used as an electrode (250.52) and all electrodes must be bonded together. (250.50)

250.52 alows the use of a waterpipe as an electrode.
It allows the use of the metal frame of a building.
It allows the use of ground rings, rod and pipe, plates in fact it even allows the use of burried tanks as electrodes but it does not say anywhere that any of them MUST be used as electrodes. If we were required to use the water pipe if it were present as an electrode we would also be required to bond the underground tanks.

To be more clear 250.50 does not say the water pipe must be bonded to form the gec it says the electrodes must be. 250.52 then list what you are PERMITTED to use as an electrode.

If it isnt used as an electrode it can be bonded at any accessable location. 250.104 If your not using the waterpipe as an electrode then bonding in any accessable location would not be using the water pipe as a GEC and hence not violating 250.52

I appreciate the content but none of it shows a requirement to use the waterpipe as an electrode.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

I agree with slick. This has been bounced back and forth way too many times with NO change in opinion on either side.


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