# NEC reference article????



## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Well, your liability is transferred, so I'm puzzled about your crusade, but here's your reference:

_*408.41 Grounded Conductor Terminations.* Each
grounded conductor shall terminate within the panelboard
in an individual terminal that is not also used for another
conductor._

The "grounded conductors" are the white conductors you see on that bar. The "grounds" (bare or green) can be doubled up if the panel's terminal torque/spec sticker permit 2 conductors (most do). 

What inspection organization are you associated with? I ask because I think an HI citing code is generally poo-poo'd.

This didn't come in until the 2002 code. It is possible that the jurisdiction this home is in is not on the 2002 NEC yet. It wasn't until August of 2004 that my jurisdiction changed from the.... hold on to your pants... the 1981 NEC to the 2002 NEC.


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## dora (Mar 10, 2007)

Well, my crusade is that I don't take a fancy to a seller trying to pull the wool over my clients eyes. My client pays me and trust me and I like them to feel secure in that I know what I'm talkin about when I tell them something.

I appreciate the reference, it'll be put to good use. And to answer your other question, I don't cite code, in fact that's a 4-letter word in my business. But, I take it upon myself to know code and to call something out that I see is wrong. This so I can provide my client with safe advice and cover my own derry air at the same time.

Thanks a ton!


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Hey Dora! Welcome girly! :thumbup:

Marc, Dora is good people. :thumbsup:


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Speedy Petey said:


> Hey Dora! Welcome girly! :thumbup:
> 
> Marc, Dora is good people. :thumbsup:


Sorry, Dora. 

Hugs and kisses from PA :thumbsup:


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## Joe Momma (Jan 23, 2007)

So what other problems were found in this residence Dora?
Just curious, and also how old is this place, rather the panel to be more specific?

And MD you have to be kidding......
the 1981 NEC was in effect until 3 years ago? What kind of hillbilly town do you live in? Are they also still wearing clothes and hair from that era too(not you but other/normal people)?


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Joe Momma said:


> And MD you have to be kidding......
> the 1981 NEC was in effect until 3 years ago? What kind of hillbilly town do you live in? Are they also still wearing clothes and hair from that era too(not you but other/normal people)?


No, Joe... I'm not kidding. Take at look at this link from a local town's official municipal code, updated January 2007. It still says that they're on the 1981 NEC (although that's no longer true, superceeded by state law). Chapter 86 in this code document.

http://www.e-codes.generalcode.com/codebook_frameset.asp?t=tc&p=0756_atp.htm&cn=1&n=[1]


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## Joe Momma (Jan 23, 2007)

The link showed up saying "my session has expired and I will be re-directed"

That's okay because I'll just take your word for it anyway. But I still wonder what sort of town sees the 81 code as the height of electrical knowledge? Did they even have GFI's back then, if so were they required to be installed anywhere?


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Joe Momma said:


> But I still wonder what sort of town sees the 81 code as the height of electrical knowledge? Did they even have GFI's back then, if so were they required to be installed anywhere?


I don't know. In 1981, all I knew about electricity was that if you stuck a paperclip in both sides of the outlet, it got you out of typing class for that period. No power, electric typewriters no worky.


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## Joe Momma (Jan 23, 2007)

.....uh.......what's a typewriter......?


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Joe Momma said:


> .....uh.......what's a typewriter......?


HA! Guess you never made a "mix tape" either? Or were never the envy of your friends because you had a boom box with "high speed dubbing"?


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Marc stop it! The memories are killing me! :blink:


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## dora (Mar 10, 2007)

Hi Speedy, Hey thanks for the invite! Yeah finally made it over here and it's a great place with lots of cool people too :thumbsup: 

Hi Joe, well, the house is 9 years old and the electrical panel was a 200 amp original panel. There wasn't any other defects inside the panel, but it was obvious that the homeowner did his own wiring elsewhere.

Half of the basement had been remodeled and on the unfinished side of the walls there were open juction boxs, open knockouts and unprotected romex. These new circuits were the ones that were landed on the buss bar wrong  

Then there was some inproper use of extension cord wiring (connected to the receptacle below the main panel and extended above the drop ceiling to ???)

The main water piping from the street was plastic to the interior water meter and then copper piping on the other side of the meter fed throughout the house, but the bonding cable for the ground was clamped to the copper water piping approx. 20 feet from where the main water pipe entered the house. And just to know, Wisconsin currently utilizes the 2005 NEC.

And then a couple other things like a cracked receptacle and a waterproof cover missing on an exterior receptacle.

Anyhow, the realtor called me last night and said after talking with me she checked with HER electrician and he agreed with me that the wiring in the box was definatly wrong and she was ammending the offer to follow my advice and get a full inspection by a licensed electrician. Maybe now she'll believe me when I tell her something ya think :whistling2:


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

dora said:


> The main water piping from the street was plastic to the interior water meter and then copper piping on the other side of the meter fed throughout the house, but the bonding cable for the ground was clamped to the copper water piping approx. 20 feet from where the main water pipe entered the house. And just to know, Wisconsin currently utilizes the 2005 NEC.:


That's legal. If the water line enters as non-metallic, you can bond the interior metallic piping anywhere that pleases you. I often take it to within 5' of the entrance "just in case" the entrance pipework is ever changed to metallic. You need only take the bond wire to within 5' of the entrance of the water line IF the bond wire is also your GEC.


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## dora (Mar 10, 2007)

> That's legal. If the water line enters as non-metallic, you can bond the interior metallic piping anywhere that pleases you


That's great cause that so happens to be the only thing that I didn't report a defect on even though I believe it to be one.

So could you explain to me why it's not a defect cause my thinking is if someone decided to replace some metal piping between the water meter and the bond location with plastic then the metal piping on the house side of the meter wouldn't be bonded in this case.

Reason this doesn't make sense is cause even if a home has a couple of ground rods and has a metal water main, the bond is still required to go to within 5' of where it enters the house but not for a plastic water main. Same scenario could still happen though whether the main is metal or plastic right.


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## jwhite (Jan 16, 2007)

If the water pipe is metal comming into the house and is in contact with at least 10 foot of dirt, it is used as the primary grounding electrode because it is the best one available. When this is done there is no need to bond the water pipes elsewhere although jumpers may be needed around the water meter and hot water tank.

If the water pipes entering the house are plastic then the bond to the water lines is just that. A bond in case an electric wire comes in accidental contact with the metal pipes. Since it is not the primary grounding electrode, there is no need to worry about where it is in the system.


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## frank (Feb 6, 2007)

If the water pipe is metal comming into the house and is in contact with at least 10 foot of dirt, it is used as the primary grounding electrode because it is the best one available



Hi Folks.

Can you please explain for me what precautions are taken to protect aginst indirect electric shock should the 'water main primary earth. become open circuited.

Sounds like a dangerous practice to me but I am sure I am missing something here,

Frank


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

frank said:


> Can you please explain for me what precautions are taken to protect aginst indirect electric shock should the 'water main primary earth. become open circuited.
> 
> Sounds like a dangerous practice to me but I am sure I am missing something here,


It doesn't carry current. That's how. It's there in case of a lightening strike or high voltage surge on the incoming neutral. Hopefully it will earth some of the surge and prevent as much equipment damage. Every normal day, it's just a piece of wire doing nothing. Well....Kirchoff's law... okay. It carries a trickle.


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## frank (Feb 6, 2007)

MD

I think I am thinking UK Standards here. So thats why I am confused. 
So what happens if the neutral becomes open circuit downstream of the 'ground/neutral bond'. Won't the waterpipe now become the main neutral current carrying return.

I guess I need diagrams of your consumer end connections vis; supply side provisions.
Here in the UK the main ground lead must not be formed by any pipework but water.gas,oil and other metalic systems are bonded to a designated ground. ie, One provided by the Supply Company either as a neutral earth connector or as a lug available on the cable armouring. If not available then an electrode to which all other grounds are bonded but none of which is a primary earth.

Everything is the same, But different.

Frank


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## robertwilber (Jan 22, 2007)

*9 years old?*

well, you at least have to get out the '96 code to check for requirements, and a lot of places around here were using the '87 code as late as '96.
Then you have to go get the manufacturers specs for the installed equipment and see what the UL [or other listing agency] requirements for installation are. 
When I started in the trade, common practice was to insert the grounding conductor and the grounded conductor from a circuit in the same hole in the neutral bus. This had been started as a practice when full-size grounds became the norm.
....but homeowner garbage is just that, garbage. Most people can do most things, but shouldn't if they cannot turn out a professional level result. It isn't like baking a cake, which you eat and forget [though I know some people who should definitely NOT be allowed to prepare food]. Don't get me wrong, I resent the "pros" who have the attitude that "you can't see it from my house!"
I have [and always have had] concerns about untrained [and I consider the majority of home inspectors untrained] personnel pulling panel covers [safety issue, not jealousy].


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

robertwilber said:


> I have [and always have had] concerns about untrained [and I consider the majority of home inspectors untrained] personnel pulling panel covers [safety issue, not jealousy].


I share that same concern. Some home inspectors are employees. I wonder if they're following NFPA 70E requirements when they pull a panel cover?


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## Joe Momma (Jan 23, 2007)

This home inspector appears to be well advised.
But I wish the home inspector would've pulled the cover at my cousins house he bought last year, or even knew what he was looking at when he did.

Luckily my cousin called me to move his panel and I was able to make things as safe as possible, But I couldn't believe or even explain what I saw when I tore into his place where he planned to raise his brand new family(kids anyway)


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

frank said:


> Hi Folks.
> 
> Can you please explain for me what precautions are taken to protect aginst indirect electric shock should the 'water main primary earth. become open circuited.
> 
> ...


Frank, I admit I have come to agree that using the incoming water pipe as a grounding electrode can be dangerous. My concern is that if, say my neighbor loses his service neutral, his neutral current will travel through the water pipe to my panel seeking it's return path to the source. My understanding is that this is not unknown, and seems dangerous to me!. I would prefer that a non-conductive fitting of some sort be used to isolate interior piping from exterior, and not using it as an electrode. (you still have to bond the interior metal piping of course.) JMHO


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## frank (Feb 6, 2007)

HI John.

Yes it does happen as you say. I have come accross this problem on older installations. People getting shocks from radiators etc.where an open circuit neutral exists A dedicated ground path is the only sure fire way of(helping) to prevent problems. Which is probably why our code now does not any longer allow this. But even then, nothing is gauranteed,

Frank


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

John I have investigated this issue numerous times and it can be a concern.

If you have other electrodes, then a coupling can be installed to minimize this issue at your connection prior to exiting your resisdence.

There is a website APPLE A DAY or something like that that recommends removing your water pipe ground electrode connection (for health reasons) without verifying you have other known electrodes. I sent them a CURT email, but have not recieved a response.



> because it is the best one available


What determines that?


Frank if the water utility becomes open a person will get a shock? or did I misread your post?


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## Joe Momma (Jan 23, 2007)

I believe other problems would arise before a person recieved a shock from an open neutral situation.


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## rod213 (Mar 16, 2007)

Regarding water pipe grounds, I've seen situations where pump motors for wells have went bad and somehow have backfed to the plumbing and shocking the people when the were turning the shower on.

Wow! How's that for a run on sentence.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Open neutral is one issue I thought the item (as I read it or misread it wa in regards to a missing GEC to the water pipe?


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## frank (Feb 6, 2007)

Brian

I was trying to understand the grounding system in the USA. It differs a little from that found in the UK. I noticed in a 'post' that in the USA a Utility water Pipe can be utilised as the main earth path electrode.

This being the case I wondered what the US Code required such that if the Utility Water Pipe ground/earth cable was open circuit, what provisions are made to prevent fault currents passing through adjacent pipework.metalwork bath tubs, heating systems etc.?
And if the neutral should become open circuit what US code provisions are there to protect against a neutral and earth short with an open circuit neutral at the same time.
Here in the UK we use a mains born GFI (rcd) to monitor out of balance currents and so switch off the supply to the 'breaker box'. See I am getting Americanised.


Frank


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Hey Frank:

My wife is from Portsmouth, her mum actually lives about 5 or 6 blocks from the IOW ferry terminal. I have spent some time looking at the UK wiring, though mostly old row houses. And I have a friend in Brighton that is an electrician, who I have discussed issues with over the years.

Anyway, the utility water pipe was for years the only grounding electrode (gas was also used) utilized in most residences and commercial facilities as the grounding electrode. Today it is supplemented with a driven 8' ground electrode (rod) or two (depends on certain conditions I will avoid delving into because they make NO SENSE). Plates, pipes and concrete encased electrodes are also utilized.

The main reasoning behind this was the switch to non-metallic piping, there is a lot of concern by the utilities that the connection was degrading their piping (not proven in AC distribution) and the possible hazard from shock to utility workers when they opened the pipe and there was ground current on the water pipe. This was happening when the water pipe was continuous between houses on the same transformer and was worse when a neutral was open at one house and all the neutral current was on the water pipe.

The ground electrode serves no real purpose in relation to clearing faults or shock hazard. The main purpose of the grounding electrode is in case of lightning strikes and accidental fault between the primary and secondary of the utility transformer (both of which can be a shock hazard). 

A lot of emphasis is placed on this rod we drive into the earth, more than we place on other major issues in my opinion. 

A few questions for you:

What do you call?

The neutral/grounded conductor.

The conductor between the service neutral to ground jumper to the electrode.

The ground electrode.

And are you utilizing AFCI circuit breakers.

Do all you appliances still come without a cord cap (plug)


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## Joe Momma (Jan 23, 2007)

The water pipe electrode is only supplementary to another elctrode and is only set up that way to keep all plumbing fixtures at zero potential and not designed to carry any fault current whatsoever.
For fault current is why we run a 'grounded conductor' to every device and bond it to every metallic electrical enclosure.
It's only by coincidence that the 'grounded conductor' is also bonded to the water pipe or ground rods or any other grounding electrode.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Joe Momma said:


> The water pipe electrode is only supplementary to another elctrode and is only set up that way to keep all plumbing fixtures at zero potential and not designed to carry any fault current whatsoever.
> For fault current is why we run a 'grounded conductor' to every device and bond it to every metallic electrical enclosure.
> It's only by coincidence that the 'grounded conductor' is also bonded to the water pipe or ground rods or any other grounding electrode.


 
Joe the water pipe electrode was the grounding electrode for years, it is only recently that a driven electrode was required (I'll check the code cycle Monday) that was why there was a requirement to make your connection at the street side of the water main. The bonding issue is where there is plastic incoming water pipe. 

And the reason we bond this water pipe is to carry fault current in the house back to the main neutral/grounded conductor through the ground bonding jumper, this allows fault current to return to the source; the utiity transformer. 

An example would be a conductor laying on a water pipe shorting to the pipe, if the piping was not bonded the water pipe would be energized then anyone coming between the water pipe and a grounded item would recieve a shock.


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## frank (Feb 6, 2007)

Hi Brian

Well. We speak the same language but don't understand each other!. So if I have interpereted you correctly--- here goes.

Question 1. We call this the MAIN EARTH CONDUCTOR.

Question 2. We call this the SCOURCE EARTH MAIN EARTH CONDUCTOR.

Question 3. We call this the EARTH ELECTRODE.

Question 4. Arc Fault Circiut breakers are available but little used . So many variants of standard breakers are available that Arc Fault Types don't jusify cost.

Question 5. All appliances are supplied with a moulded 'plug head'. (Cord Cap) Have been obligatory for the past 10 years or so.

Question 6

How do you come to have an English wife? Were you a GI or something?I have a friend in Potstown PA who married an English girl. He met her whilst he was on sabatical after touring the UK following his demob from the Army after his time in Vietnam.

I shall be in MA in a few weeks and quite possibly mid PA. So like yourself I shall be checking out the systems there once more. Anne (the wife) thinks i'm potty.mmmmmmmmmmmm. could it be true?

Frank


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

I was hoping we in the states would incorporate the term EARTHED in our NEC to simplify the terminology, but alas not to be in this code cycle.

My wife was Mary Poppins, the perfect woman in every way, and a nanny in Washington DC when I met her. We dated several years, she tried to straighten me out and has pretty much succeeded (I THINK).

Strange thing is my sister married an English man, and my brother dated an English woman for years, but he WAS SMART he never married.

We won't be going to England this year Sharon (her sister) will visit once again (3rd year in a row) and me mum-in-law will be coming later.

My family (Dad) is originally from MA, where will you be visiting in MA and PA?


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## frank (Feb 6, 2007)

Hi Brian


Is smart OK not to be married? Who gets to bring your hot milk to bed when you have the flu ?

We shall be on the Cape and then going to Adamstown PA. Not visiting anyone. Just taking in the sights. Fly out 1st May. Come back 14th May. Then on the 23rd May fly to Italy where my son is getting married. Fly back to UK 27th May and get back to work. 
It's all go.


Frank


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Adamstown PA... What are the sites?


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

brian john said:


> Adamstown PA... What are the sites?


I was wondering the same thing. It's in the middle of PA Dutch farmland, for the most part. People go antiquing over in that neck of the woods quite a bit.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

My English in laws love the Amish country, Lancaster and around there, they especially love Intercourse and Blue Ball memorabilia. Go Figure.


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## frank (Feb 6, 2007)

brian john said:


> Adamstown PA... What are the sites?


 


Just the Amish country. Last year we visited Gettisburgh. Came back through Adamstown on the way to Boston. Liked the look of the place and bought a couple of nice vintage radios. Anne liked the antiques and we both would like to see more.
Strange how simple things can keep you occupied!!!

Frank


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