# Lever wagos for motor terminations?



## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

How big is the motor?

I haven't tried them on motors but don't see why they wouldn't work. My only concern would be in high vibration applications the lever nut will probably have a higher inertia than a marrette and would probably benefit from extra securing.


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## Breakfasteatre (Sep 8, 2009)

fractional horsepower motors 99% of the time.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

I wouldn't bat an eye using lever nuts on a fractional HP motor and have done it several times. I thought you meant bigger motors.


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

It’s probably like the problem with Polaris plugs. First and most obvious is they are not UL Listed for fine strand. All motor leads are fine strand for flexibility. Wago 221s carry the CE label for fine strand but that’s not an allowed NRTL because they don’t test. Since motor leads are fine stranded, it’s a nonstarter.



https://www.nema.org/docs/default-source/technical-document-library/bull_105_fine-stranded-connections.pdf?sfvrsn=e271fe95_3





https://code-authorities.ul.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/40/2015/02/Electrical-Connections-Issue-3-2011.pdf



The hard plastic wears through faster than softer rubber and often does not outlast the motor. So vibration wise probably not a good idea either.


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## Breakfasteatre (Sep 8, 2009)

good call on the fine strand. Ive had issues before with larger motors and vfd cable and terminations

Any recommendations for an alternative? Terminal rings, nuts and bolts?


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

Breakfasteatre said:


> good call on the fine strand. Ive had issues before with larger motors and vfd cable and terminations
> 
> Any recommendations for an alternative? Terminal rings, nuts and bolts?


fractional hp ?? wire nuts


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## bill39 (Sep 4, 2009)

What does the NEC consider “fine strand”?


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

bill39 said:


> What does the NEC consider “fine strand”?


if you really want to know compare thhn to so cord


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

Breakfasteatre said:


> good call on the fine strand. Ive had issues before with larger motors and vfd cable and terminations
> 
> Any recommendations for an alternative? Terminal rings, nuts and bolts?


Yes. Again, fine strand rated lugs. Many but not all are. On the larger sizes often you have to go up a lug size.


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

bill39 said:


> What does the NEC consider “fine strand”?


It’s not NEC.

ICEA is “the” wire standards. Everyone else uses a piece of the ICEA standards. ICEA publishes a crap ton of different stranding patterns for every size plus insulation, jackets, etc. Mist of them are not used. The stranding patterns have letter names, A and B for coarse, C and D for compact; and G through M plus DLO for fine stranding.

UL groups the wire classes into “fine” and “coarse”. UL rated lugs and terminals are Listed for solid, coarse, or fine strand. The larger ones may change sizes on you so a 500 MCM coarse lug might only be 350 MCM FLEX and something else entirely for DLO or class M wiring.

NEC just says you must use Listed components according to the manufacturers instructions. You can’t use a 221 on motor leads (fine strand class I AWM 150 C rated) because it is only Listed for class A and B wiring. If Wago can pass the test there is no doubt in my mind they would have already gotten 221s and 223s Listed. Even without motors, all the MTW used in machine tools is class G or H and can’t be used either.


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## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

But it would still also fall under the general umbrella in the NEC, 110.3.B, the "Installation and Use" clause requiring that devices be used in accordance with their listing and instructions.

Here is what UL-486 (A, B and C) for wire connectors says (this is clipped from C, the paragraph number varies for A and B):










Wire nuts AND Wagos by the way are covered by this same listing (UL-486C), so are not listed for anything above Class B or C stranding either, *unless specifically stated on the packaging or instruction sheets*. None of the wire nuts are that I have found. But interestingly, the Wago 221 Lever-Nut installation sheet DOES say it can be used for "solid, stranded and _flexible_" wire, but stops short of actually saying the stranding class, so it's unclear if by that they just mean Class C or something higher. Now they ADVERTISE that;


> "221 Series can be used wherever different wire types have to be connected in a compact space. For this reason there are many different fields of application for the 221 series. They can be used for example in traditional electrical installations/junction boxes, lighting fixtures, _*for the connection of motor leads, control wiring,*_ or even in mobile applications like RV‘s, emergency vehicles, and others. "


 But just because their advertising blurb says it, does not mean it is LISTED for that application, and per the UL rules, it must SPECIFICALLY STATE that it is if it is. One would think that SOMEONE at Wago would know that and either get the listing, state it clearly if they already have it, or remove the advertising statement as being false.

Class B is the typical THHN / THW stranded "building wire", Class C is the "extra flexible" wire like fixture wire _with up to 19 strands_.

14ga MTW, TEW etc. has 41 strands, so it is Class K. Motor leads are typically Class I. 

So no, in my opinion you cannot use Wagos OR wire nuts on motor connections, at least not legally.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

JRaef said:


> But it would still also fall under the general umbrella in the NEC, 110.3.B, the "Installation and Use" clause requiring that devices be used in accordance with their listing and instructions.
> 
> Here is what UL-486 (A, B and C) for wire connectors says (this is clipped from C, the paragraph number varies for A and B):
> 
> ...


since when is truth in advertising supposed to be adhered to?


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## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

Almost Retired said:


> since when is truth in advertising supposed to be adhered to?


Yeah, really... what was I thinking?

When I worked for Siemens (another German company) years ago, they made several claims about products that didn't jive with their UL listings. When I would come across these conflicts and brought them up, I was always told to mind my own business, "That's not your job. We have people assigned to this sort of thing". 

That always made me think of that closing scene in Raiders of the Lost Ark when Jones asks who has taken charge of the Ark, and the Government response was "We have top men working on it right now... TOP... MEN", then they cut to the scene of the warehouseman burying it in a warehouse somewhere...


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

When I see the words flexible and cULus on the same page, I don't think I'm breaking any rules.


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## Slay301 (Apr 23, 2018)

paulengr said:


> It’s probably like the problem with Polaris plugs. First and most obvious is they are not UL Listed for fine strand. All motor leads are fine strand for flexibility. Wago 221s carry the CE label for fine strand but that’s not an allowed NRTL because they don’t test. Since motor leads are fine stranded, it’s a nonstarter.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Polaris makes a tap for fine strands specifically for motors fyi look here 



Fine Stranded Grey


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## MotoGP1199 (Aug 11, 2014)

I've been using wagos for many years on every single motor that they fit the wire. I've had 0 issues across over a 1000 motors. If the wire is number 10 or smaller it gets a wago lever nut.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

JRaef said:


> So no, in my opinion you cannot use Wagos OR wire nuts on motor connections, at least not legally.


So some of the insulated lugs are rated for motor wire leads, but they are not for small wires. The lever nut is at least closer to compliant than a wire nut. 

What is compliant for small wires? Crimp ring terminals bolted? Small split bolts? Buchanan type crimp rings? 

I'd think the spring in the lever nut would be pretty resistant to vibration, easy to assemble and disassemble without losing wire when you test or change motors etc., sounding pretty good at this point.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

www.ul.com/global/documents/corporate/aboutul/publications/newsletters/electricalconnections/June11


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## bill39 (Sep 4, 2009)

Full disclosure: Even though I am somewhat old school & retired from the trade, I like to think I am still open to new ideas, but from a secure electrical perspective, is anything better than using ring terminal, bolts, & nuts, then taped up?

I realize this method is more labor intensive for both initial installation & maintenance replacement time.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

It's all we use on small motors with leads and we've done a lot of them with wagos. Just bought a few more boxes of 221's this morning for exactly that.

We wanted something that works and is efficient to install and swap motors.


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

Slay301 said:


> Polaris makes a tap for fine strands specifically for motors fyi look here
> 
> 
> 
> Fine Stranded Grey


14 AWG to 2/0 range only. Again they fail way more often than lugs and tape, even if they are Listed.


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

splatz said:


> So some of the insulated lugs are rated for motor wire leads, but they are not for small wires. The lever nut is at least closer to compliant than a wire nut.
> 
> What is compliant for small wires? Crimp ring terminals bolted? Small split bolts? Buchanan type crimp rings?
> 
> I'd think the spring in the lever nut would be pretty resistant to vibration, easy to assemble and disassemble without losing wire when you test or change motors etc., sounding pretty good at this point.


The Wagos ARE Listed in Europe for fine strand, just not UL.

Buchanons are legal. Just a pain.

Many crimp lugs are legal on fine strand. But not all. And we use a brand in the shop that is UL Listed for fine strand only, not coarse! Still lugs and bolts and tape are tried and true. And many dual rated lugs are very gives detailed instructions on proper taping.

I have not seen a split bolt Listed for fine strand. Plus…failure rates are quite high. How do you by the way torque to spec?


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## darr247 (8 mo ago)

paulengr said:


> The Wagos ARE Listed in Europe for fine strand, just not UL.
> 
> Buchanons are legal. Just a pain.
> 
> ...


According to NFPA 79, wire nuts are not allowed in potheads (13.5.9.2).

We use crimp on ferrules to prevent stray strands, then touch-safe barrier strip (600V; 30A rated - we use Molex brand from mcmaster.com ... strips of 12 cut into 3's) with ferrules (automationdirect.com is often out of stock, lately; mcmaster's are usually 5x their price) trimmed so no metal is outside the barriers with recessed screws tightened.

We use the 63A Molex strip on larger motors, even though few draw half that much FLA. 

BTW... are "buchanons" the crimped barrels with slip on rubber boots secured to the wires with a tethered ring?


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

darr247 said:


> According to NFPA 79, wire nuts are not allowed in potheads (13.5.9.2).
> 
> We use crimp on ferrules to prevent stray strands, then touch-safe barrier strip (600V; 30A rated - we use Molex brand from mcmaster.com ... strips of 12 cut into 3's) with ferrules (automationdirect.com is often out of stock, lately; mcmaster's are usually 5x their price) trimmed so no metal is outside the barriers with recessed screws tightened.
> 
> ...


NFPA 79 is voluntary, not required. If you read it nobody follows their goofy color coding for instance. Not disagreeing with it. Just funny you can quote this Code but then totally fail to meet NEC Listing requirement which is legally required.

Molex barrier not Listed on the spec sheet. No listing to be cut. This is not an allowed modification. Good reason for it since Molex sells 3 pole strips. Also it’s not mounted per instructions. It would fail any inspection. I checked several Molex listings because they make thousands of products, same result. I’ve not seen this done in any motor. It would be like Polaris taps except it’s just plain not Listed.



https://www.molex.com/webdocs/datasheets/pdf/en-us/0391001802_TERMINAL_BLOCKS.pdf



Yes you can use ferrules but you don’t need them and the requirements are pretty strict.



https://lugsdirect.com/PDF%20Documents/ul-accepted-use-of-ferrules.pdf



Number of ferrules I’ve seen pass in the field: zero. None have an open end or nobody crimps the wire to be flush. It adds nothing to make anything better so why do it? At best I guess to use fine strand on coarse-only lugs? If you are having trouble getting the strands in 99% of the time either you need to cut the boogers end off and strip out fresh cable or you just grabbed the “purple 4/0” lug or are trying to put fine strand wire into a “4/0 mechanical” lug without noticing jts only 3/0 fine strand. Match wire size to lug size. And since virtually all motor lead wire is fine strand, get used to looking for this.

Lugs and bolts are tried and true. Except for bad tape jobs I’ve repaired these zero times. All products involved are Code and Listed for the use. There is no need to modify them or redress the ends or take risks with mechanical splices. Plus you are already crimping on a ferrule then inserting into a mechanical terminal? Call me crazy but if you are already spending the effort to crimp something onto the wiring why not just use lugs and tape and have a Code legal termination?






If you really want terminals ask for the motor with an IEC terminal block. Forget the ferrules. Crimp on ring lugs and bolt in and you’re done. Again it’s all to Code.



https://www.marathonsp.com/motor-terminal-blocks.php



Buchanons:






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When it comes to BUCHANAN Wire Connector and Terminal Kits you can count on Grainger. Supplies and solutions for every industry, plus easy ordering, fast delivery and 24/7 customer support.




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Works too except no reuse. Must cut off every time you open the connection.


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