# Residential camera rough in



## MTW

What kind of wire do I need to run for residential cameras? Cat 5? Rg-59? ENT? System would be integrated with an intrusion alarm system but the system is not picked out yet.


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## Rollie73

Personally I would pull a Cat5 or Cat6 to everything. There are HD cameras available for all areas of usage(industrial, commercial and residential) and the pricing is such that virtually no one buys any other type now. The cameras can also get powered via POE with a Cat5

Anything that is being installed on the exterior of the home in a colder climate then include a 2c #18 low voltage wire. Some of those exterior cams need additional power.


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## Black Dog

MTW said:


> What kind of wire do I need to run for residential cameras? Cat 5? Rg-59? ENT? System would be integrated with an intrusion alarm system but the system is not picked out yet.


Are you really an electrician?:blink:


:laughing:





*Edrick*



Is the man to contact on that type of work, he's the top dog here for Audio visual stuff....:thumbsup::thumbsup:






.


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## MTW

Rollie73 said:


> Personally I would pull a Cat5 or Cat6 to everything. There are HD cameras available for all areas of usage(industrial, commercial and residential) and the pricing is such that virtually no one buys any other type now. The cameras can also get powered via POE with a Cat5
> 
> Anything that is being installed on the exterior of the home in a colder climate then include a 2c #18 low voltage wire. Some of those exterior cams need additional power.


Thanks, I planned on running Cat 5 but wanted to make sure. Good tip about the 18/2 for the outside cameras. :thumbsup:


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## MTW

Black Dog said:


> Are you really an electrician?:blink:
> 
> 
> :laughing:


:whistling2:


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## 3DDesign

It depends on the camera system. 
RG-6 with 18/2 siamese cable
RG-59 with 18/2 siamese cable
RG-6 with 16/2 siamese cable
Cat 6
Cat 6 with 18/2 siamese cable


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## MTW

3DDesign said:


> It depends on the camera system.
> RG-6 with 18/2 siamese cable
> RG-59 with 18/2 siamese cable
> RG-6 with 16/2 siamese cable
> Cat 6
> Cat 6 with 18/2 siamese cable


I've been looking at the Honeywell Lynx system potentially. Any idea what it requires?


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## Rollie73

The Honeywell Lynx system will work with their IP Total Connect cameras and they can be wired or wireless. They hardwire with cat 5 or Cat 6


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## Edrick

If i catch any of ya'll running analog cameras or roughing in for analog I'll come and chop your hands off. Hell if I catch any cat5e being run ill chop a finger off. All trade recommendations are saying Cat6 minimum now. The price difference between cat5e and Cat6 is nominal at this point and if you all start installing cat6 and people stop using cat5e it'll continue to go down. We're installing Cat6a now. 

The nice thing is about cat cable is even if you for some reason HAD to use an analog system you can put baluns on cat cable and connect analog cameras. They do make converters to actually go from RG59 to IP however there's no reason to use those unless it's an old system.

So install yourself some Cat cable to the camera locations and you'll be good to go. Actually all the cameras we install even with the heaters are still able to run it over PoE but I suppose it depends on the camera. So it can't hurt to run the additional power cable.


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## daveEM

I just did that. This thread titled POE IP Cameras...
http://www.electriciantalk.com/f10/poe-ip-cameras-88545/

Used Cat5e cause that's what I had. Had to educate myself a bit as I was confused on how to power up the cable but I'm smart now.

Going to buy 100 or so of those Foscam cameras, change the signage on my truck and 'have at her'. :thumbup:

*Edit:*
- I'll buy some Cat6 cable 
- Foscam USA would work for you maybe...
http://foscam.us/poe-ip-cameras.html/


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## 3DDesign

Edrick said:


> If i catch any of ya'll running analog cameras or roughing in for analog I'll come and chop your hands off. Hell if I catch any cat5e being run ill chop a finger off. All trade recommendations are saying Cat6 minimum now. The price difference between cat5e and Cat6 is nominal at this point and if you all start installing cat6 and people stop using cat5e it'll continue to go down. We're installing Cat6a now.
> 
> The nice thing is about cat cable is even if you for some reason HAD to use an analog system you can put baluns on cat cable and connect analog cameras. They do make converters to actually go from RG59 to IP however there's no reason to use those unless it's an old system.
> 
> So install yourself some Cat cable to the camera locations and you'll be good to go. Actually all the cameras we install even with the heaters are still able to run it over PoE but I suppose it depends on the camera. So it can't hurt to run the additional power cable.


Digital cameras with HD 1080 can run on RG-6 & 18/2. I agree though that Cat 6 is a simpler solution.


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## GrayHair

I agree with Edrick on the analog cameras, they are "legacy" items today. *However*, you might consider adding coaxial-Siamese cable because you never know what sort of kludge system might get installed. 

I doubt you want to be accused of running "the wrong cable". Cost might not be objectionable and labor will be minimal. Of course, you'll get "Why did he do that" but your answer would be "Since you couldn't tell me *which type*, I covered *both types*".

"If you don't have a plan, you're planning to fail."

Regards!


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## Rollie73

Edrick said:


> If i catch any of ya'll running analog cameras or roughing in for analog I'll come and chop your hands off. Hell if I catch any cat5e being run ill chop a finger off. All trade recommendations are saying Cat6 minimum now. The price difference between cat5e and Cat6 is nominal at this point and if you all start installing cat6 and people stop using cat5e it'll continue to go down. We're installing Cat6a now.
> 
> The nice thing is about cat cable is even if you for some reason HAD to use an analog system you can put baluns on cat cable and connect analog cameras. They do make converters to actually go from RG59 to IP however there's no reason to use those unless it's an old system.
> 
> So install yourself some Cat cable to the camera locations and you'll be good to go. Actually all the cameras we install even with the heaters are still able to run it over PoE but I suppose it depends on the camera. So it can't hurt to run the additional power cable.


 
Thanks for the clarification and more in depth explanation than I was able to offer.

FWIW......we don't even buy Cat 5 cable anymore. The difference in price is nothing to be concerned about and I'm always ready for future upgrades when I run it.

I only mention Cat 5 on here because it seems every time somebody mentions running Cat 6.....the majority of the posters on here will jump all over you about how were wasting money by running it. :laughing:


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## MTW

So...would it be acceptable if I run Cat 5e? I have plenty of 5e but not Cat 6 as I rarely run data lines. I'd like to use up the remaining 5e that I have.


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## Rollie73

MTW said:


> So...would it be acceptable if I run Cat 5e? I have plenty of 5e but not Cat 6 as I rarely run data lines. I'd like to use up the remaining 5e that I have.


Cat6 is better but it will work just fine but I would still run an 18/2 to the exterior locations as well.


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## Edrick

MTW said:


> So...would it be acceptable if I run Cat 5e? I have plenty of 5e but not Cat 6 as I rarely run data lines. I'd like to use up the remaining 5e that I have.


I'll only cut a finger off, so it's a lesser crime than running analog cameras. So sure you can run Cat5e :thumbsup:

Basically don't buy any new Cat5e, if you're buying new go cat6 at a minimum.

Cat5e still works and it still uses the same connectors physically so it's not like cat5e isn't useful anymore. It just isn't good for future use. Especially longer runs of gigabit or even 10gig.


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## daveEM

I'd use up that cat 5e for a residence no problem.

I installed a few miles of it in an office tower over two floors. That was a few years ago. Folks there are happy as pigs in clean environment.

A couple of years ago, same thing for a guys house. He had a H-on for fiber but just wanted conduits. I suspect he is happy as pigs in a clean environment with his original cat5e and empty conduits.

But if you run out keep everyone happy and buy cat6. Me I'll be looking for sales on cat5. << damn, more fingers coming off.


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## Wired4Life10

Hey Edrick, side question for you. 

Many of the sparkies around my area just charge $20/drop for phone and I always home run everything but of course they loop. I usually end up switching a jack or two over to net in the long run of the house but cat5e is hard enough to justify for $20/line. I only run them so I can also do net and coax where I need as builders want all that done by one person and I can pull an entire room at once. Are you running phone in resi as cat6 or 5e? Do you see it possible in any way? I use Honeywell cable for what it's worth.


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## five.five-six

be mindful that PoE specification is 100m, if you run past that without a repeater of some sort and have failures, your support call to the camera manufacture will end there. 

There are plenty of cheep PoE cameras out there, but the NVRs are pricey and the picture/lenses on the cheep ones are not good. + megapixal cameras eat hard drive space for lunch. There are still a lot of applications where a good analog camera is the correct choice. Also, if they want PTZ, you are going to want a power supply local to the camera.


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## five.five-six

Edrick said:


> I'll only cut a finger off, so it's a lesser crime than running analog cameras. So sure you can run Cat5e :thumbsup:
> 
> Basically don't buy any new Cat5e, if you're buying new go cat6 at a minimum.
> 
> Cat5e still works and it still uses the same connectors physically so it's not like cat5e isn't useful anymore. It just isn't good for future use. Especially longer runs of gigabit or even 10gig.


Cat6 for PoE is a wast of money the 802.3 specification is for 100mbps, not gige or 10gige. cat5e is good for gige gat 6 is good for 10gig, switches with a fabric that can handle 10gige throughput are in the $100,000's not something you are going to find outside carrier plant for some time to come. 

Now, if your customer want's to pay for cat6, by all means charge charge charge and smile smile smile.


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## five.five-six

GrayHair said:


> I agree with Edrick on the analog cameras, they are "legacy" items today. *However*, you might consider adding coaxial-Siamese cable because you never know what sort of kludge system might get installed.


kludge?

I just got an order for 9 of these to be installed in a rather hot desert location, I haven't found any PoE replacement that will meet these specifications, or PoE switches/ repeaters that are hardened to the point they can tolerate 130 degree heats without shelters with air conditioning. It's a boat storage yard and the runs are in excess of 400M which is outside of PoE specification without repeaters. 

https://us.boschsecurity.com/us_pro.../st_prod_p_277382_tams_catalog_prod_us_277012


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## sarness

Cat6 is often recommend in PoE applications since it is 23awg instead of 24 and thusly has lower voltage drop and can handle more current.


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## Wpgshocker

sarness said:


> Cat6 is often recommend in PoE applications since it is 23awg instead of 24 and thusly has lower voltage drop and can handle more current.



PoE standard is cat5, and the max distance is 100 meters for both cat5 and cat6. Maybe I just haven't seen a 10GBs camera yet. Oh wait...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## sarness

Wpgshocker said:


> PoE standard is cat5, and the max distance is 100 meters for both cat5 and cat6. Maybe I just haven't seen a 10GBs camera yet. Oh wait...
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I wasn't talking speed, I was talking wire size and the associated lower voltage drop when using it.


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## GrayHair

five.five-six said:


> kludge?


*Kludge**:* a system and especially a computer system made up of poorly matched components Merriam-Webster

The main emphasis was "poorly matched components", although I believe it originated as a "poorly thought-out/written bit of programming". Like adding features to a working product until it's overpriced and unusable. :jester:

Regards!


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## five.five-six

sarness said:


> Cat6 is often recommend in PoE applications since it is 23awg instead of 24 and thusly has lower voltage drop and can handle more current.


It's almost a wash, due to the higher twist rate there is actually a longer distance of wire in X number of feet of CAT6 than in the same distance of CAT5. The specification of 100M for PoE is regardless of CAT5 or CAT6 cable.


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## five.five-six

GrayHair said:


> *Kludge**:* a system and especially a computer system made up of poorly matched components Merriam-Webster
> 
> The main emphasis was "poorly matched components", although I believe it originated as a "poorly thought-out/written bit of programming". Like adding features to a working product until it's overpriced and unusable. :jester:
> 
> Regards!


Yes, I know that, but you were implying, or so I inferred, that any contemporary analog CCTV system is a *Kludge*. Is that what you were saying? Because if so, clearly you would be wrong.


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## Wpgshocker

five.five-six said:


> It's almost a wash, due to the higher twist rate there is actually a longer distance of wire in X number of feet of CAT6 than in the same distance of CAT5. The specification of 100M for PoE is regardless of CAT5 or CAT6 cable.



Exactly, I just get annoyed when people mistakingly think they can run it farther. The whole heavier gauge less voltage drop argument is kind of moot. 


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## Edrick

PoE also runs over gigabit. So saying that because you're using PoE limits you to 100mbit is incorrect. Thus using cat5e would still not be recomended. What it comes down to is guys saying oh well the device doesn't even come close to using the limits of the cable! 

Give it a few years and a device will use the limitations. Cat5e has been defunct for years now. Why install a cable that for very little difference in cost can cause issues down the road? Especially if you are covering it in sheet rock and can't change it easily. It just makes no sense to me. If you're really hurting that much that the cost of cat5e vs cat6 is eating into your profit either you're pricing the job wrong or you're buying from the wrong place.


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## five.five-six

Edrick said:


> PoE also runs over gigabit. So saying that because you're using PoE limits you to 100mbit is incorrect. Thus using cat5e would still not be recomended. What it comes down to is guys saying oh well the device doesn't even come close to using the limits of the cable!


Link to gig PoE specification please.

FYI, CAT5e is rated to 1gig, CAT6 is rated to 10gig, Have you ever had a customer that had 10gig equipment? If not, running cat6 to 1gig nics is like running #6 to 20 amp duplex receptacles.


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## five.five-six

Edrick said:


> If you're really hurting that much that the cost of cat5e vs cat6 is eating into your profit either you're pricing the job wrong or you're buying from the wrong place.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I pay $70/k for quality cat5 and $110/k for quality cat6. That's 60% more in material costs.


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## Edrick

How often do you certify your Cat5e installs and know for sure they will do gigabit? Other than just the computer saying oh hey I'm connected at gigabit. Because more often than not it may report gigabit on the computer but the cable will fail at actual throughput. 

Edit: Actually what am I saying all you guys should keep installing Cat5e because I'm making bank ripping it out and replacing it when it can't handle the speeds. 


"10BASE-T and 100BASE-TX Ethernet use only two pairs of wire in 4-pair CAT5/CAT5e/CAT6 cable, leaving the other two pairs free to transmit power for Power over Ethernet (PoE) applications. However, Gigabit Ethernet or 1000BASE-T uses all four pairs of wires, leaving no pairs free for power. So how can PoE work over Gigabit Ethernet?

The answer is through the use of phantom power—power sent over the same wire pairs used for data. When the same pair is used for both power and data, the power and data transmissions don’t interfere with each other. Because electricity and data function at opposite ends of the frequency spectrum, they can travel over the same cable. Electricity has a low frequency of 60 Hz or less, and data transmissions have frequencies that can range from 10 million to 100 million Hz.

10- and 100-Mbps PoE may also use phantom power. The 802.3af PoE standard for use with 10BASE-T and 100BASE-TX defines two methods of power transmission. In one method, called Alternative A, power and data are sent over the same pair. In the other method, called Alternative B, two wire pairs are used to transmit data, and the remaining two pairs are used for power. That there are two different PoE power-transmission schemes isn’t obvious to the casual user because PoE Powered Devices (PDs) are made to accept power in either format."

That information is from Blackbox.com; http://www.blackbox.com/Store/Results.aspx/Networking/PoE/n-4294953056

----






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## Rollie73

five.five-six said:


> I pay $70/k for quality cat5 and $110/k for quality cat6. That's 60% more in material costs.


You're paying a bit too much. I'm getting Cat 5 for $65 and the Cat 6 for around $90. A bit more for sure but not enough to break the bank.


I'm amazed that we are getting a better deal on something here in Canada:laughing:.


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## five.five-six

Rollie73 said:


> You're paying a bit too much. I'm getting Cat 5 for $65 and the Cat 6 for around $90. A bit more for sure but not enough to break the bank.
> 
> 
> I'm amazed that we are getting a better deal on something here in Canada:laughing:.


What brand? I's rather run a good Honeywell cat5e than a cheepo no name cat6.

It's still 50% more in material costs.


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## Edrick

five.five-six said:


> What brand? I's rather run a good Honeywell cat5e than a cheepo no name cat6.
> 
> It's still 50% more in material costs.


There's your problem using Honeywell, actually I'm not sure what I consider Honeywell but for quality cable I don't usually jump at Honeywell. Although Honeywell is a name brand and it's good cable I find it to be more of the Electricians / Alarm Guys cable. I figured when you were talking quality cable you were talking Belden or something.


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## five.five-six

Edrick said:


> Cat5e is not certified to do gigabit, there's a difference. Cat5e will do gigabit however it usually does not do it well. Cat5e was created to support gigabit however is more prone to issues and doesn't hold up to the distance well.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Certified is not specified, cat6 isn't "certified" to do gigabit either, until you install it and certify it with a tester. 

Cat5e is most definitely within the gigibit specification.


And what do you mean by doesn't do it well? What BERT tester are you using to come up with this nonsense?


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## five.five-six

Edrick said:


> I figured when you were talking quality cable you were talking Belden or something.


Belden, westpen, Genesis, they are all quality cables. I use Honeywell because that's what my distributor carries. They have cheep stuff too but I won't use it.


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## Edrick

five.five-six said:


> Certified is not specified, cat6 isn't "certified" to do gigabit either, until you install it and certify it with a tester.
> 
> Cat5e is most definitely within the gigibit specification.
> 
> 
> And what do you mean by doesn't do it well? What BERT tester are you using to come up with this nonsense?


Sorry didn't mean to type certified. Fluke Certifications tools. There always seems to be conflicting views on the speeds Cat5e will support and over what distances. What I mean by doesn't do well is cat5e is more prone to interference by design in comparison to Cat6.

All the major manufacturers of both cabling and the tools have said that Cat6 is what is recommended. 

From my understanding yes Cat5e will do speeds up to gigabit. However depending on the length of the cable and interference and being that gigabit is already at the limitation of the cable more often than not it wont push full gigabit speeds. 

So my question still stands how often do you certify your cat5e installs over longer distances? It's an actual question. 

I've found often enough that Cat5e won't pass certification at gigabit. 

Now of course this all depends on the environment and who installed the cable and the type of cable that is used. I've always installed cat6. So I'm comparing us coming in to repair a network thats run with cat5e and the cable failing to pretty much never failing on cat6 unless the termination was done wrong.

Usually what happens is the discussion becomes not so much of what the cable is rated to handle, as the discussion at hand is what should you be installing for the future. In this case my grind against Cat5e isn't so much wether or not you can get gigabit out of it, as it is what should you be installing. 

Should you be selling someone a 20 year old car and claim they're set for the future?

See Link: http://www.broadbandutopia.com/caandcaco.html

Here's ron with more information
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZEgINS-fPc


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## five.five-six

Edrick said:


> So my question still stands how often do you certify your cat5e installs over longer distances? It's an actual question.


If you are certifying gigabit over 100M, you are falsifying your certification because over 100M is out of specification regardless if it passes throughput and BERT. 

If your category 5e drops are not passing gigabit, you might want to read up on best practices for installing and terminating of Ethernet cables because you are doing something wrong or your tester needs calibration.


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## sarness

Wpgshocker said:


> Exactly, I just get annoyed when people mistakingly think they can run it farther. The whole heavier gauge less voltage drop argument is kind of moot.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


You know that, and I know that, just try telling it to the people who spec it.


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## five.five-six

Edrick said:


> Should you be selling someone a 20 year old car and claim they're set for the future?
> 
> See Link: http://www.broadbandutopia.com/caandcaco.html
> 
> Here's ron with more information
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZEgINS-fPc


Let me ask you something, do you even understand what 10gig is? It's an OC192 with different framing. It's carrier backbone transport. 

might someone want it? sure, but have you ever even seen a 10 gig switch with a fabric that can support full throughput? Serious question. 

On sale, $31,000 for a 8 port line card, you still have to buy the chassis and Gbics

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applicat...yvke6zIWHvNadtWgvP8DvWDoQEQRVae_LIaAlpU8P8HAQ


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## Edrick

five.five-six said:


> If you are certifying gigabit over 100M, you are falsifying your certification because over 100M is out of specification regardless if it passes throughput and BERT.
> 
> If your category 5e drops are not passing gigabit, you might want to read up on best practices for installing and terminating of Ethernet cables because you are doing something wrong or your tester needs calibration.



Who said I was installing any cabling over 100m? 

Also as I said I don't install cat5e so my tool and terminations are just fine. 

My point of this conversation has been many professional references have said stop installing cat5e. 


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## Edrick

five.five-six said:


> Let me ask you something, do you even understand what 10gig is? It's an OC192 with different framing. It's carrier backbone transport.
> 
> might someone want it? sure, but have you ever even seen a 10 gig switch with a fabric that can support full throughput? Serious question.
> 
> On sale, $31,000 for a 8 port line card, you still have to buy the chassis and Gbics
> 
> http://www.tigerdirect.com/applicat...yvke6zIWHvNadtWgvP8DvWDoQEQRVae_LIaAlpU8P8HAQ



Actually yes I have and ive seen it in consumer / prosumer devices. So yes I do know what I'm talking about. Because 10gig is making its way to the consumer market. 

It's already been in the professional market for quite some time and I don't know where you're looking but we have 10gig to the field in our commercial clients. 


I'm not even sure what we're arguing about at this point, we have our difference of opinion. 

http://www.netgear.com/landing/10gigabit.aspx

http://www.amazon.com/Intel-Ethernet-Converged-Network-X540T1/dp/B008NJPL7C/ref=pd_bxgy_pc_text_z

http://www.thecus.com/product.php?PROD_ID=99

Still pricey but 10gig is well on its way to the consumer desktop. 

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## Edrick

To add to the conversation, I do probably work in a different arena than most. My work almost never deals with the regular corporate or regular consumer market. I deal with Production House for Film and TV, Music Production Facilities, Theaters, Live Venues, etc... Where we use fiber to the desktop or bonded gigabit ethernet or 10g or not even just for ethernet transmission but video and audio baluns, zero latency video feeds, etc.. 

or the home owners who want the latest and greatest in their house.


I'm changing the debate. 

New debate anyone who runs copper to the field is hack. Fiber all the way baby! -thumbs up-


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## five.five-six

Edrick said:


> Actually yes I have and ive seen it in consumer / prosumer devices. So yes I do know what I'm talking about. Because 10gig is making its way to the consumer market.
> 
> It's already been in the professional market for quite some time and I don't know where you're looking but we have 10gig to the field in our commercial clients.
> 
> 
> I'm not even sure what we're arguing about at this point, we have our difference of opinion.
> 
> http://www.netgear.com/landing/10gigabit.aspx
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Intel-Ethernet-Converged-Network-X540T1/dp/B008NJPL7C/ref=pd_bxgy_pc_text_z
> 
> http://www.thecus.com/product.php?PROD_ID=99
> 
> Still pricey but 10gig is well on its way to the consumer desktop.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Really? what hdd can presses 10 GIG? LMAO you are talking about really large SANs and RAIDS, may cost as much as a house and probably more than your car.

Just because you get a green 10gig link lighte 10gig throughput does not mean. 

just to put this in perspective, you are decrying that cat5 wont get you 1 gig POE to a camera, that translates to a 350 megapixel camera. 10gig is a 3,500 megapixle camera.... and you are seeing this in residential LOL, I want what you are smoking.


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## Edrick

five.five-six said:


> Really? what hdd can presses 10 GIG? LMAO you are talking about really large SANs and RAIDS, may cost as much as a house and probably more than your car.
> 
> Just because you get a green 10gig link lighte 10gig throughput does not mean.
> 
> just to put this in perspective, you are decrying that cat5 wont get you 1 gig POE to a camera, that translates to a 350 megapixel camera. 10gig is a 3,500 megapixle camera.... and you are seeing this in residential LOL, I want what you are smoking.



This is like arguing with a moron I'm trying to have an intelligent conversation with you and you avoid the stuff you request I show you right in front of your face. 

You were incorrect about PoE Spec and that it's limited to 10/100.

You were incorrect about the cost of 10gig and the equipment required to handle it. 

You're incorrect per multiple professional trade and equipment manufactures that 5e is still acceptable to be installed. 

You're incorrect as to the cost of hardware for drive arrays that can support it, in fact I linked directly to a NAS array that has 10gig and can push the bandwidth. 

You brought up 10gig that has nothing to do with the OP question. Now you're arguing with me as if I said he needs 10gig for his camera. This is laughable. I've provided documentation and links requested so I'm done debating this with you. 

If you want to continue this debate feel free to start a new thread or PM me. But at this point the topic is completely derailed from the OP. 

As I said earlier to the OP I don't recommend analog cameras and recommend installing cat6 as its a new install and that's what the manufacturers are recommending. The industry standard is cat6 for all new installs. 

:thumbup:

Pictures help though, so I've attached a comparison chart of a gigabit nas vs a 10gig nas 

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## McClary’s Electrical

five.five-six said:


> Link to gig PoE specification please.
> 
> FYI, CAT5e is rated to 1gig, CAT6 is rated to 10gig, Have you ever had a customer that had 10gig equipment? If not, running cat6 to 1gig nics is like running #6 to 20 amp duplex receptacles.


Except there's a huge cost difference between#6 and #12. Virtually no cost difference between CAT 5 & 6


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## five.five-six

Edrick said:


> You were incorrect about PoE Spec and that it's limited to 10/100.


let's just start here. A simple link to the gig PoE specification so you don't look like a moron, then we can look at your next ridiculous claim.


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## five.five-six

mcclary's electrical said:


> Except there's a huge cost difference between#6 and #12. Virtually no cost difference between CAT 5 & 6


I am correlating ampasity to throughput, 

But you are on to something, sending 10GBPS to a 1gig nic is more like running 2/0 to a 20 amp device. its a 10:1 ratio in load bearing.


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## Edrick

five.five-six said:


> let's just start here. A simple link to the gig PoE specification so you don't look like a moron, then we can look at your next ridiculous claim.


I already provided that information perhaps you need some reading glasses, here it is again for you 

I already don't look like a moron as I've provided information to you on a few different subjects. 

"10BASE-T and 100BASE-TX Ethernet use only two pairs of wire in 4-pair CAT5/CAT5e/CAT6 cable, leaving the other two pairs free to transmit power for Power over Ethernet (PoE) applications. However, Gigabit Ethernet or 1000BASE-T uses all four pairs of wires, leaving no pairs free for power. So how can PoE work over Gigabit Ethernet?

The answer is through the use of phantom power—power sent over the same wire pairs used for data. When the same pair is used for both power and data, the power and data transmissions don’t interfere with each other. Because electricity and data function at opposite ends of the frequency spectrum, they can travel over the same cable. Electricity has a low frequency of 60 Hz or less, and data transmissions have frequencies that can range from 10 million to 100 million Hz.

10- and 100-Mbps PoE may also use phantom power. The 802.3af PoE standard for use with 10BASE-T and 100BASE-TX defines two methods of power transmission. In one method, called Alternative A, power and data are sent over the same pair. In the other method, called Alternative B, two wire pairs are used to transmit data, and the remaining two pairs are used for power. That there are two different PoE power-transmission schemes isn’t obvious to the casual user because PoE Powered Devices (PDs) are made to accept power in either format."

That information is from Blackbox.com; http://www.blackbox.com/Store/Result...E/n-4294953056

But if you need an additional source to disprove your limitation of 10/100 PoE.

Other than the fact I install access points left and right that use gigabit over PoE.

Here you go http://www.streakwave.com/powerdsine/Understanding_802_3at_PowerDsine.pdf

Again YOU brought up 10gig ethernet and you're comparing it to current devices. The POINT of Cat6 or Cat6a or Cat7 or Cat6ex is to be ready for FUTURE technologies.

So much for my statement of being done with the debate, But hey I'm always up for a lighthearted debate of learning.


----------



## five.five-six

Edrick said:


> You brought up 10gig that has nothing to do with the OP question.


No, you brought up CAT6, and the only reason to run CAT6 is to get 10gig, now your case may be special because it seems that you can't install cat5e to meet it's specification.


----------



## Edrick

five.five-six said:


> I am correlating ampasity to throughput,
> 
> But you are on to something, sending 10GBPS to a 1gig nic is more like running 2/0 to a 20 amp device. its a 10:1 ratio in load bearing.


Why would you send 10gig to a 1gig NIC? Perhaps if you knew more about networking you'd know the device negotiates the link. So if it's a 10gig switch on the other end and the NIC is only 1gig then it'll only connect at 1gig. The idea is in the future when you have a device that has 10gig you can just change the device on the end and like magic it's connected at 10gig. 

So your analogies don't really work. The idea that one would install 2 gauge wire for a 20a circuit when the device on the other end will probably never need to go past 20 gauge is asinine. Especially as our devices become more power efficient.

However our network bandwidth throughput continues to grow exponentially. :whistling2:


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## five.five-six

Edrick said:


> I already provided that information perhaps you need some reading glasses, here it is again for you
> .


blackbox.com? is that something you get on Craigslist or ebay? is that the kind of garbage you sell your customers because it certainly is not a ANSI/EIA/TIA or IEEE standard.

here's your link:



> *Oops!*
> The page you're trying to access isn't available on our site.
> *Here are some options that might help:*
> 1) Start again from our *home page*.
> 2) Use the navigation links above to search for site content.
> 3) Use the Search box above to locate products.
> 4) *Contact us* for help.
> 5) To leave suggestions or comments, use the Website Feedback form to the right.


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## five.five-six

Edrick said:


> Why would you send *CAT6* to a 1gig NIC?


FTFY

A:
Only because you don't have the skills to properly install a cat5e cable.


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## Edrick

five.five-six said:


> No, you brought up CAT6, and the only reason to run CAT6 is to get 10gig, now your case may be special because it seems that you can't install cat5e to meet it's specification.


Ever heard a balloon that's deflating through a small hole? That's the noise I'm hearing out of you right now. As if you could read (again maybe you need glasses). I've already said I don't install cat5e. So my termination of cat5e has no issue. However idiots who run Cat5e through high noise environments or hack the punchdown of cat5e are the issue.


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## Edrick

five.five-six said:


> FTFY
> 
> A:
> Only because you don't have the skills to properly install a cat5e cable.


Once again you are incorrect and thank you for modifying my post so you can meet your agenda. You would install cat6 to be ready for the future.


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## Edrick

five.five-six said:


> blackbox.com? is that something you get on Craigslist or ebay? is that the kind of garbage you sell your customers because it certainly is not a ANSI/EIA/TIA or IEEE standard.
> 
> here's your link:


Actually if you knew anything about networking infrastructure other than what your Alarm / Electrical supply house was selling you. You'd know BlackBox is a highly reputable and high end supplier of equipment in the IT world.

Also lets ignore that I gave you a second link that goes direct to the specification.

You didn't happen to vote for Bush or Romney did you?

I feel like I'm watching Faux news here.


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## five.five-six

Edrick said:


> Ever heard a balloon that's deflating through a small hole? That's the noise I'm hearing out of you right now. As if you could read (again maybe you need glasses). I've already said I don't install cat5e. So my termination of cat5e has no issue. However idiots who run Cat5e through high noise environments or hack the punchdown of cat5e are the issue.


To be fair, you wright a lot of TL;DR walls of text. With few exceptions, everything you write is unsupported by any industry standards or specifications. If you want to sell people blackbox.com garbage, be my guest... I'll stick to recognized standards and specifications thank you very much.


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## Edrick

five.five-six said:


> To be fair, you wright a lot of TL;DR walls of text. With few exceptions, everything you write is unsupported by any industry standards or specifications. If you want to sell people blackbox.com garbage, be my guest... I'll stick to recognized standards and specifications thank you very much.


Again you ignore the standard I linked to right bellow that quoted text. 

Hey but the good news is I know people over at Fox News and based on your posts I think you've got a career ahead of you. If you want let me know I'll give them a ring and send your name their way.

.. damn Cat6 cabling Thanks Obama


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## five.five-six

Edrick said:


> Actually if you knew anything about networking infrastructure other than what your Alarm / Electrical supply house was selling you. You'd know BlackBox is a highly reputable and high end supplier of equipment in the IT world.


I have actually used blackbox.com equipment. It's duct tape for hack installs that were not properly engineered to meet specifications.


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## Edrick

five.five-six said:


> I have actually used blackbox.com equipment. It's duct tape for hack installs that were not properly engineered to meet specifications.


I don't even know what you're talking about anymore considering the equipment they sell has nothing to do with hack installs? Considering they sell KVM Switches, Racks, PoE Injectors, Switches, etc... :whistling2:

FIBER MORE FIBER

Too bad I'm out of popcorn.


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## five.five-six

There is no reasoning with you, go ahead and waste money on cat 6 to cameras, falsify certification on runs over 100m and go to blackbox.com for bailing wire and JB wield to fix it when it doesn't work. It' your business, do as you like.


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## Edrick

five.five-six said:


> There is no reasoning with you, go ahead and waste money on cat 6 to cameras, falsify certification on runs over 100m and go to blackbox.com for bailing wire and JB wield to fix it when it doesn't work. It' your business, do as you like.


My business is doing great, my clients love us. Which is why I don't have to scrape together the pennies and buy cat5e instead of cat6. Maybe business on your end isn't doing to well or you're stuck in the stone age. I don't know what it is. Keep selling your customers that antiquated car as if it was going to last them into the future.

Want to chat about gigabit PoE or are you still lying to your customers telling them it can only be done on 10/100? You seem to have not said anything about the standard I posted which clearly lists 1gig.


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## five.five-six

Edrick said:


> My business is doing great, my clients love us. Which is why I don't have to scrape together the pennies and buy cat5e instead of cat6. Maybe business on your end isn't doing to well or you're stuck in the stone age. I don't know what it is. Keep selling your customers that *antiquated car as *if it was going to last them into the future.
> 
> Want to chat about gigabit PoE or are you still lying to your customers telling them it can only be done on 10/100? You seem to have not said anything about the standard I posted which clearly lists 1gig.


Antiquated? You are a little ignorant, and by a little ignorant I mean a lot. CAT5e specification was ratified at the same time CAT6 specification was. If CAT5e is "antiquated" then so is CAT6. 

When you run CAT6 to a PoE camera, what you are doing, to use your car analogy, is to sell your customer a semi truck when all they need is a minivan to go pick up groceries. 

Keep robbing your customers blind, that's not how I run my business.


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## Edrick

I actually don't rob my customers blind as many people have already stated the cost difference between the two is so small that there's really no difference. 

The point you continue to miss regardless of if cat5e will do gigabit or if they were both created around the same time is that cat6 no matter which way you cut it, is the better of the two. It supports faster speeds for FUTURE changes in technology. Numerous studies, reports, companies, manufacturers and people say so. 

Why would you install Cat5e for phone when Cat3 supports phone? 

I'm not even sure what point you're arguing. If you read I said go ahead and use cat5e for cameras already. You came in here guns blazing that there's no need for cat6 and its just a rip off. But you seem to flip flop on what point you're trying to make. There was never a debate about wether cat5e would be fine for a camera. 



> Will category 6 supersede category 5e?
> 
> Yes, analyst predictions and independent polls indicate that 80 to 90 percent of all new installations will be cabled with category 6. The fact that category 6 link and channel requirements are backward compatible to category 5e makes it very easy for customers to choose category 6 and supersede category 5e in their networks. Applications that worked over category 5e will work over category 6. - See more at: http://www.broadbandutopia.com/caandcaco.html#sthash.cLd40Mjt.dpuf


Never mind not even worth it, I'm going to go do something more exciting. You have yourself a good night let me know what Fox news has on later.

It seems someone is taking this personally and it's not me  So at this point I'm going to bow out of responding to you. If anyone else would like to have a discussion about it like reasonable people I'm all for it!


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## guest

Alright, enough of the bickering. The argument between you two is unnecessary and irrelevant, so knock it off. 

That said, MY position is that CAT 6 is overkill for 99.99% of surveillance camera installations. Even digital cinema can handle CAT5e for the audio and 2k resolution video information. (To be fair it is rarely run in lengths over 10 meters, and 4k systems specify CAT6.) 

As for the cost difference between CAT 5e and CAT6, on smaller jobs where the lines are known to be used ONLY for surveillance cameras, I would maybe use CAT6 IF that was what I had in the truck. 

For a larger job where we are talking tens of thousands of feet of cable, AND CAT5e would be adequate for the system, I would use CAT5e and not worry about it. 

The system I am putting in my house is the Harbor Freight special and uses the coax/power cable. And I am not going to waste money running CAT5e cable alongside..I will be dead or moved out before it would be an issue to repairs/changes.


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## Edrick

mxslick said:


> Alright, enough of the bickering. The argument between you two is unnecessary and irrelevant, so knock it off.



Thank you my point exactly

Rest of your post is well said as I was saying cat5e for his cameras will do him fine. However running analog wouldn't be advisable as either way you can run analog over a balun to the camera on cat5e if for some reason they went with an analog system. 

My thought on the cat6 vs cat5e and the cameras is due to the fact you never know down the road what it'll be used for. Which is why we just stock one version makes it easier for inventory and the way I look at it and we quite often run into is one day it might be an IP camera a few years down the road it might be an access point or be pulled back to use as trunk to a switch. 

But as mentioned prior using cat5e is fine for the purpose especially in residential

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Rollie73

five.five-six said:


> What brand? I's rather run a good Honeywell cat5e than a cheepo no name cat6.
> 
> It's still 50% more in material costs.


I use Belden cables for all my Low Volt or IT applications. 

Your math sucks as well. 65 / 90= 72.222222 % So 65 is 72.22222% of 90. 
100-72.2222222= 27.77777777%

Its 27.8% more....not 50% more.


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## five.five-six

Rollie73 said:


> Your math sucks as well. 65 / 90= 72.222222 % So 65 is 72.22222% of 90.
> 100-72.2222222= 27.77777777%
> 
> Its 27.8% more....not 50% more.


My math sucks? LOL You need a mirror. 

$65 is 27.8% less than $95, but that's not what I said.

$95 is 46.2% more than $65.... so shoot me over 4%

1.462*65~95.


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## Going_Commando

My math came to 39% with 65 bucks vs 90 bucks.


i like turtles.


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## Edrick

Going_Commando said:


> My math came to 39% with 65 bucks vs 90 bucks.
> 
> 
> i like turtles.


Based on his cost of 110k for cat6 vs 70k for cat5e he would be spending 36.4% more.

That being said, one supplier we paid $7 per jack for cat6 another supplier for the same jack we paid $4.50. So it all depends on quantity, supplier, relationships, etc... 

Since we just buy cat6 and just stock only that the cost difference is far less for us.


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## five.five-six

Going_Commando said:


> My math came to 39% with 65 bucks vs 90 bucks.
> 
> 
> i like turtles.


oh, 90, not 95


27% less or 39% more....

and $90 for belden cat6 seems unbelievably cheep, even eBay sellers are getting $125/k


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## five.five-six

Edrick said:


> Based on his cost of 110k for cat6 vs 70k for cat5e he would be spending 36.4% more.
> 
> That being said, one supplier we paid $7 per jack for cat6 another supplier for the same jack we paid $4.50. So it all depends on quantity, supplier, relationships, etc...
> 
> Since we just buy cat6 and just stock only that the cost difference is far less for us.


I like turtles.

what are you paying for CAT6 patch panels?


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## GrayHair

five.five-six said:


> Yes, I know that, but you were implying, or so I inferred, that any contemporary analog CCTV system is a *Kludge*. Is that what you were saying? Because if so, clearly you would be wrong.


Not at all. There are quite a few analog systems I installed still running with minor maintenance. The first system I installed over 40 years ago used vidicon cameras, probably 2/3". That one is certainly not running!


The kludge I was referring to can result from clearing a stock room of "new old stock". Something like a new install with 5 mega-pixel IP cameras, converted to analog at the headend and recorded on a time-lapse VCR. The customer ends up getting a raw deal even if it works.


I'm pretty sure decent quality analog cameras will eventually go away, just as tube cameras did. Reduced sales will drive (is driving?) analog camera prices up, just as increased sales has driven IP camera prices down. Of course there will still be high-end analog cameras for specialty work and very low-end cameras for those interested only in price.


I went from 2/3" tube to 1/2" tube cameras, to 1/2" chip cameras, to 1/3" and then to 1/4". TV news went from monochrome film, to color film, to live remotes via microwave and now via bonded cellular. The only constant is change!

Regards!


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## five.five-six

Thanks for the clarification.


GrayHair said:


> I'm pretty sure decent quality analog cameras will eventually go away, just as tube cameras did. Reduced sales will drive (is driving?) analog camera prices up, just as increased sales has driven IP camera prices down. Of course there will still be high-end analog cameras for specialty work and very low-end cameras for those interested only in price.


I was going to say no because of the 100M limitation but I remembered that NVT has some PoE over coax that will get you 50 watts and 10/100 over 8,000 feet of RG59.


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## Edrick

five.five-six said:


> Thanks for the clarification.
> 
> I was going to say no because of the 100M limitation but I remembered that NVT has some PoE over coax that will get you 50 watts and 10/100 over 8,000 feet of RG59.



I think I may have realized where we got into the big part of our argument. When you were saying Poe is limited to 100m and I was saying 1000 I thought you were saying you can only run 100mb with Poe witch we then got into an argument over citing the standard. Then we were arguing about certifying cable where you were saying about me fudging my results. I think part of our argument was a misunderstanding 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## reddog552

*Black Box*



five.five-six said:


> To be fair, you wright a lot of TL;DR walls of text. With few exceptions, everything you write is unsupported by any industry standards or specifications. If you want to sell people blackbox.com garbage, be my guest... I'll stick to recognized standards and specifications thank you very much.


Hmm.Did a Job at US AIR FORCE base.probably 100,000 ft. 700 drops. Cat 6e, All Black Box cable & componets.


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## triden

five.five-six said:


> Link to gig PoE specification please.
> 
> FYI, *CAT5e is rated to 1gig, CAT6 is rated to 10gig*, Have you ever had a customer that had 10gig equipment? If not, running cat6 to 1gig nics is like running #6 to 20 amp duplex receptacles.


Sure, but after 100m cat5e isn't rated to 1gbps anymore and you should use cat6.



reddog552 said:


> Hmm.Did a Job at US AIR FORCE base.probably 100,000 ft. 700 drops. Cat 6e, All Black Box cable & componets.


cat6a or cat6? A cat6e standard doesn't exist.


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## Edrick

triden said:


> Sure, but after 100m cat5e isn't rated to 1gbps anymore and you should use cat6.
> 
> 
> 
> cat6a or cat6? A cat6e standard doesn't exist.


They do make cat6e I think it's more of a manufacturer thing perhaps? 

I've seen:
Cat6
Cat6e
Cat6ex
Cat6a


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## Somewhere_401

I think for some of this whole debate, it can come down to a few simple solutions.

Use the best practice to future proof something. Keeping price in mind, it might be $20.00 or so spool more for Cat 6, so go for it.

I try to always go above, more is usually better, more jacks, more room for expansion etc. Sometimes budget really dictates what is being done, but often you can do things better and still come out ahead financially.

If the customer is a) a paying customer :thumbsup: and b) likely to be there for a while, explain why upgrading to this has a better chance of having a long service life.

For most situations, the real difference between Cat 5E and Cat6 cable is not going to be really noticeable unless there is a significant length of cable being run, then again, is Cat 5E the right cable?

I would highly advise anyone running a new system not to run it solely on Coax with a Siamese cable. I have done those, and have seen the good / bad /ugly.
Even if they are not going to use the latest cameras, they don't last that long, think of how happy the customer will be in 3-5 years when they want to upgrade, and you already ran Cat5E / 6, and can now do the POE and see how great the improvement is, while having no disruption in running new lines. They will remember your wisdom and hopefully either call you back for that upgrade / or recommend you to others. That is why you are in business right?

The other thing I try to do is run the wire in conduit to protect it from interference, and then I can also run an extra pull line. It amazes me how often people won't leave a pull line. Then again, I have seen so many things that make you go:no::no:.

Remember, there was a time when BNC was the best for networking and no one ever thought it would be required for faster / better cable and workmanship. 

You can never really future proof whatever you install, you can just make your best educated guess. Keep up on industry trends, best practices etc. Most customers who are interested in better practices tend to be willing to pay a little more, don't gouge, but at least give people the choice. The longer you do this, and the better you listen to the customer, the happier they will be. I did one job recently, where after reading the plans, talking to the customer, I went, I think the office would likely need an extra jack here, and here, and here. So I just ran them, figured it was an extra 20.00 in materials. On trim out, sure enough, can we add a jack here, and here. No problem, I already figured that you would want that, so I made provision for it. Small change order, customer very happy.


--


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## Somewhere_401

Edrick said:


> They do make cat6e I think it's more of a manufacturer thing perhaps?
> 
> I've seen:
> Cat6
> Cat6e
> Cat6ex
> Cat6a


--

I think you are right, I have seen some cable marked Cat6, Cat6E as well as the Cat 6A, yet all were "supposed" to offer the same performance. The only difference was brand.

One thing that annoys me is when the space is clearly plenum and people run cable that is only rated Riser. They quoted "plenum" or code compliant and then run riser. Another funny install was riser rated cable run in conduit for 85% of the run then just open for the remaining 16' all while the entire space is the plenum.... :no: That and pinching the cables on the end of the conduit instead of cutting the conduit that extra 1 inch so that the cable could be properly run instead of being wedged in below the roof structure....

--


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## Chris1971

MTW said:


> What kind of wire do I need to run for residential cameras? Cat 5? Rg-59? ENT? System would be integrated with an intrusion alarm system but the system is not picked out yet.


I would check with the system you plan on using. See what they specify.


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## MTW

Chris1971 said:


> I would check with the system you plan on using. See what they specify.



Thanks Chris.


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## Chris1971

MTW said:


> Thanks Chris.


When in doubt, check the obvious first.


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## reddog552

*Cat 7*

Any of you guys install any Cat 7. I did about 60 runs in a assisted living home. I have no idea why Cat 7 was specd.We had a 6 hr. course on installing, Taught by Seimmons.


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## daveEM

The old 'Plan for the Future' trick?

Anyway manufacture the cable, advertise (create the need) the people will come. Company will prosper.

Cat 8 is on the way. Faster, less noise, longer distance I guess.


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## MTW

I should install some cat 55,334,792 and I'll be safe.


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## LoVolt134

Usually cat6 has just the 4 pairs in it, sometimes a plastic piece separating 2 pairs from the other two pairs. Cat6e will have a plastic divider separating all 4 pairs. Cat6a has a shield around each pair, a plastic divider separating all 4 pairs, then another shield around the whole cable assemby. Cat6 or 6e 1gbps. Cat6a 10gbps. And that's only if installed per the proper standards.


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## five.five-six

Why aren't you guys installing cat7?

http://www.balticnetworks.com/primu...n-spool.html?gclid=CIDEnPCK-8MCFc9ffgodcQ8Afg


Still installing that old fashioned cat 6? tisk tisk tisk


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## LoVolt134

Cat7, cat8.1, and cat8.2 are not currently under tia/eia standards. Most testing equipment have not been updated or calibrated to certify this cable either. Until these category cables are standardized, as in tia/eia, for best installation practices and testing procedures, how can you guarantee what the cable can really do? And at some point, when do you go from copper to fiber? Do you really need a cable that can handle 100gbps to your desktop? I can see this cable as a backbone solution, but not for horizontal cabling.

After all is said and done keep your cable as straight as you can, soft 90's, shortest routes, and terminate it properly. You will always get the most out of whatever cable you use.


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## LGLS

Cat 9 coming soon, along with the Gillette Super Mach Turbo Cummings Supreme 6 blade disposable razor.


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## Edrick

My office for the day










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## five.five-six

IslandGuy said:


> Cat 9 coming soon, along with the Gillette Super Mach Turbo Cummings Supreme 6 blade disposable razor.


I'm holding out for CAT11


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## triden

Edrick said:


> They do make cat6e I think it's more of a manufacturer thing perhaps?
> 
> I've seen:
> Cat6
> Cat6e
> Cat6ex
> Cat6a


Ya there is no actual cat6e standard. It's just manufacturers playing with marketing.


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## guest

Welll, after taking some time to mull it over and buying some premade Cat5e cables on the cheap I changed my mind:



Some dumbass I know said:


> ....The system I am putting in my house is the Harbor Freight special and uses the coax/power cable. *And I am not going to waste money running CAT5e cable alongside..*I will be dead or moved out before it would be an issue to repairs/changes.


I will be running the CAT cables with my camera lines, just in case, since all the cables will be closed up in the ceiling. I still maintain I will most likely never need the CAT cables, but since the total cost for all the cameras was under $30 what the hell...:whistling2::laughing:


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## Kaffeene

I run all Cat6 and Cat6a for cameras.


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## MTW

So...I ended up running a 1/2" smurf tube to the outdoor location for the camera. Problem solved. :thumbsup:


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## lortech

*Just some additions to cable specifications for cameras*

You mean 96 meters for horizontal cable, 2 meters or less for the patch cable and 2 meters for the drop cable. 

BTW, Camera placement, angle, distance and lighting , f-stop is critical so it is possible these distances may be exceeded especially for planning on correct outdoor placement. Last thing, cat5 distance can be extended if ethernet is replace with dslam signaling. There are Dslam converters that can do this. 




five.five-six said:


> be mindful that PoE specification is 100m, if you run past that without a repeater of some sort and have failures, your support call to the camera manufacture will end there.
> 
> 
> There are plenty of cheep PoE cameras out there, but the NVRs are pricey and the picture/lenses on the cheep ones are not good. + megapixal cameras eat hard drive space for lunch. There are still a lot of applications where a good analog camera is the correct choice. Also, if they want PTZ, you are going to want a power supply local to the camera.


----------

