# What drives do you prefer?



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Yaskawa was what the last shop I worked for used unless another brand was specified. I wasn't a fan at first but once I got used to them I felt they were very reliable.


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## psgama (Oct 26, 2015)

Another thumbs up for yaskawa here. Very user friendly. The drive wizard software is great too.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

I like AB except that they don't supply manuals anymore though the last ones I installed, I was able to slog through programming without a manual. 

My current favorite is Baldor. Easy to program, the NEMA 1 and 3R (or more likely 4X) enclosures are well designed and they send a nice manual with every one. 

Most of my work is simply 4-20 in, 4-20 out, a digital in to make it run and 1 or 2 relay outs. I greatly prefer the mechanical relays over the transistor ones. Most of them are wall-mount so the terminal box is a pretty big issue. 

I especially like the 3R/4X ones because you can remove the cover and expose the control terminals without having to remove the HMI. 

Yaskawas are ok I guess, I've only installed 2 of them, both HVAC. If I remember, I never did figure out how to easily change from keypad control to remote. It can be done but it took a lot more than one button. 

Square D is kind of a trick to program until you get used to it, then it's not bad. 

I recently installed 2 Hitachis. Not easy to program and the control terminals are less than an inch from the power terminals. Ok I guess but it sure seemed close. On the plus side, you can remove the bottom cover to expose the control terminals (and power terminals) with the drive running.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

I still really like ABB, but I've been doing more and more Yaskawa both new installs and integration and haven't found anything wrong with them.


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## glen1971 (Oct 10, 2012)

I've always had good success with Yaskawa. Both with their products and support.. ALB has been good, once you get used to them.. In our area ABB doesn't have the best support and that was the reason I replaced one of their drives with a Yaskawa....


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

I mostly use the Sq-d one but only because there is good support in my little town but I will not use them on wells. They just don't like it for some reason. 
Then I use baldor or what ever the well company wants to provide.


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## Botens (Dec 19, 2016)

I recently worked with some Danfoss VFDs and thought they were user friendly. The manual was much thinner than that of an Allen Bradley drive.


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## LuckyLuke (Jun 1, 2015)

I am starting to love the Yaskawa brand as well. We use mostly Yask, AB, ABB and Automation Direct when price is an issue.


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## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

Cow said:


> ... I'm hoping Jraef can give his input.


Well, given that my paycheck comes from Rockwell, you might expect my opinion to be slightly biased...

Not sure which model of AB drives you are using, but if it's the PowerFlex 4 or 40s, I feel your pain. But if you used the newer PF520 series for small HP, you can set up a custom parameter group that limits users to the specific parameters that you might need them to use. That cuts down the amount of navigation necessary to make changes. But that drive does not have a "graphics capable" display, it is just text.

The PowerFlex 750 series has a graphics capable display, and there too you can "mask" the unnecessary features to create a customized display of just what your customers may want/need to see. So for example if you are using it for setpoint control of pressure or flow, you can create a bar graph depiction of the data you want them to see and customize a display to use the "soft keys" to make adjustments.

But is there a "canned" version of the displays that have this already done for you? No, not yet. It's something being worked on because of customer demand and will likely be available late in 2017, but there is a lot of wrangling about exactly what should or should not be in there.

The problem with having special versions for pumps or fans is that it makes any product less flexible to being used anywhere. If you are in the HVAC business, like ABB, with a dedicated direct marketing group specific to that industry, you can do that. But A-B markets through stocking distributors, not direct through commisioned reps, so inventory must remain flexible or is sits on shelves too long. So the idea is not to make a special VFD (which is a lie anyway, the power portion is always the same anyway), we are looking at just offering a different HIM module.


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## DesignerMan (Jun 13, 2008)

I typically use AB- very reliable and I've used them for so long I feel comfortable programming them. Most of my customers spec them right from the start anyway.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

micromind said:


> I like AB except that they don't supply manuals anymore though the last ones I installed, I was able to slog through programming without a manual.
> 
> My current favorite is Baldor. Easy to program, the NEMA 1 and 3R (or more likely 4X) enclosures are well designed and they send a nice manual with every one.
> 
> ...


When I was in the motor and drive business, we were Baldor distributors. Back then they made two types of drives.
The 15H and the 18H. The 15 was just a volts/hz control while the 18 was a closed loop control used with an encoder.

I sold many of these drives after taking the demo to the customer and showed them how to use the menu.
These drives sold themselves as they were simple to program and there were no codes.
Every fault or parameter was in plain english.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

John Valdes said:


> When I was in the motor and drive business, we were Baldor distributors. Back then they made two types of drives.
> The 15H and the 18H. The 15 was just a volts/hz control while the 18 was a closed loop control used with an encoder.
> 
> I sold many of these drives after taking the demo to the customer and showed them how to use the menu.
> ...


Funny you should say that.....just today, I installed and programmed a 15H.

Supposedly, it was in use less than a year ago so I didn't bother to reform the capacitors, and programming was pretty easy. I had to look up the terminal numbers on the customers computer though. Took about 2 minutes......lol.

And yes, I remembered to not yank the cover off. Gently remove it part way and disconnect the phone cord that goes from the HMI to the drive board.


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## KennyW (Aug 31, 2013)

I have come to accept that all drives have their quirks, so best is to try to just stick to a brand and get to where you know it inside and out. I work on ABB and AB drives the both have ups and downs. I work almost solely with "integration class" industrial drives and mostly for conveyors and machinery oems. I am spoiled by the ABB ACS880 functional safety capabilities. Rockwell have always lagged behind when it comes to safety functionality. I think they have just released or are about to release functional safety stuff for the PF750 drives. That will be cool. Until they do that I have no use for them. Once that is out and has been out for a while (I am also sick of beta testing Rockwells new products for them) I think it will be great because I use rockwell safety plcs, so the integration wil nicer (cip safety).


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

micromind said:


> Funny you should say that.....just today, I installed and programmed a 15H.
> 
> Supposedly, it was in use less than a year ago so I didn't bother to reform the capacitors, and programming was pretty easy. I had to look up the terminal numbers on the customers computer though. Took about 2 minutes......lol.
> 
> And yes, I remembered to not yank the cover off. Gently remove it part way and disconnect the phone cord that goes from the HMI to the drive board.


Wow. A 15H still in business!
Did you know the drive will continue to operate with the keypad removed?
I'm not sure you can transfer parameters to another control though.
I have a keypad sitting here in my desk drawer.
I can ship it to you if you want it.

Oh....I think I have the longest keypad cable they made. I will look for it. Very handy!


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## Tonedeaf (Nov 26, 2012)

I prefer TECO Westinghouse drives but will install any specified by a customer.....i got a few of my industrial customer to start and standardize to TECO....I trained both my employees and the customer on proper programming and installation. My customers maintenance people often mess the settings but they know enough to get the production lines back in service on an emergency switch out.


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## Jhellwig (Jun 18, 2014)

If you want a durable drive that can hold up to abuse get a Toshiba. They are built like a tank.


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## triden (Jun 13, 2012)

Easiest drive I've ever programmed is a Vacon X series drive. Nice big screen and only a couple buttons to choose from. Still waiting to try one of the new Eaton drives. Have one sitting on the desk in the office. On initial glance they did a good job keeping the low voltage away from the motor and line terminals.

Otherwise, I've installed and programmed about 20 Yaskawa drives so far and they seem to be fairly reliable.


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## tates1882 (Sep 3, 2010)

Another plus one for yaskawa, then AB, then eaton svx series. I've have a large project coming up with a bunch a customer supplied cerus p drives, 29 of them. I'm really hoping they are smooth.


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## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

Dirty little secrets...

Cerus drives are actually made by LS (the industrial division of LG - Korea) and are also brand labeled as Benshaw and a few others, but you can buy them direct from LS if you can find them.
 Eaton SVX drives are actually made by Vacon, who now owns Danfoss and TB Woods as well.
 Baldor drives are now ABB drives with a different nameplate ever since Baldor was bought by ABB. The older 15H and 18H series drives actually made by Baldor (the old Sweo drives) are now obsolete.
Toshiba and Schneider drives are made by a joint venture of the two companies and are identical to each other, but in my opinion the Schneider versions have horrid manuals, the Tosh manuals are easier to read but their distribution is sketchy in some areas of the country.
Teco drives are technically made by Teco, but are essentially previously obsoleted versions of Yaskawa drives. Taian, the division of Teco that manufactures the VFDs, is a sub-assembly mfr for Yaskawa so when they get bored selling a particular version of drive, they sell the total production off to Teco, who makes them for Yaskawa as replacements. that's why however if you ever go to Yaskawa looking for support on older model drives, they make it difficult to buy replacements, they don't make as much money on them once they have pawned them off to Teco. Yaskawa almost always tries to upgrade you into their newer models (well, we all do that I suppose...)


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## Peewee0413 (Oct 18, 2012)

Best overall are AB. Simple to set.. Automation Direct are nice for cheap applications, but nothing to brag about. I installed a Baldor once and it blew up upon power up. Of course it was replaced free of charge.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

JRaef said:


> Dirty little secrets...
> 
> Teco drives are technically made by Teco, but are essentially previously obsoleted versions of Yaskawa drives. Taian, the division of Teco that manufactures the VFDs, is a sub-assembly mfr for Yaskawa so when they get bored selling a particular version of drive, they sell the total production off to Teco, who makes them for Yaskawa as replacements. that's why however if you ever go to Yaskawa looking for support on older model drives, they make it difficult to buy replacements, they don't make as much money on them once they have pawned them off to Teco. Yaskawa almost always tries to upgrade you into their newer models (well, we all do that I suppose...)




The first time I opened TECO drive I could see it was Yaskawa. I never got confirmation, but it was identical, other then the branding.
There is one we are missing here Jraef.
I think Yaskawa built them. They were obsolete about 10 years ago.
It seemed like a very robust control and I also think it was a Yaskawa pawn off. I had a customer that had many of them. Speced them on every job.




Peewee0413 said:


> Best overall are AB. Simple to set.. Automation Direct are nice for cheap applications, but nothing to brag about. I installed a Baldor once and it blew up upon power up. Of course it was replaced free of charge.


I have literally installed over 100 Baldor 15H and 18H controls and never once had a failure out of the gate.
I did a good bit of business in the aggregate industry and they would not allow Baldor in any application.
I installed a Baldor once on the weekend as I had it in stock.
They said they would buy it, but wanted Benshaw installed just as soon as we could get one delivered.
The aggregate industry seemed to think they were the only people on earth. I wish I would run into one or two of those plant managers and one electrical supervisor I had dealings with.
They were high maintenance to be nice about it.


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## Jhellwig (Jun 18, 2014)

The thing that Allen Bradley has going for them is an extensive distribution network and system integration. If it wasn't for that they wouldnt sell hardle any.


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## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

John Valdes said:


> [/LIST]
> The first time I opened TECO drive I could see it was Yaskawa. I never got confirmation, but it was identical, other then the branding.
> There is one we are missing here Jraef.
> I think Yaskawa built them. They were obsolete about 10 years ago.
> It seemed like a very robust control and I also think it was a Yaskawa pawn off. I had a customer that had many of them. Speced them on every job.


Which one was that? Did I miss something? Motortronics? I worked there for 11 years, we brand labeled them from Taian, the same place that made them for Teco and Yaskawa. Motortronics now gets their low-end drives from Teco still, but their high-end drive is brand-labeled from ST (Schneider-Toshiba JV), it's the same as the Altivar 71/Toshiba G9.

If you were referring to Magnetek, Saftronics, EMS, Electromotive, Omron/IDC or Unico, all of those were companies that brand labeled the Yaskawa products at a time when Yaskawa did not market them under their own name in the US. When Yaskawa decided to start doing so, they bought Magentek and EMS, the two biggest partners, out of the drives business and then told Saftronics and Unico to go pound sand. Omron had clout with Yaskawa in japan, so they got to keep their deal, but basically turned IDC into an integrator. Saftronics switched to GE/Fuji for brand labeling, then got bought by Emerson and stopped branding Asian drives altogether. Unico switched to partnering with Benshaw, so indirectly are selling the brand-labeled LS drive via a second brand-label deal (they are not that big).

It's a very incestuous business... Sometimes it reminds me of Game of Thrones.



> I have literally installed over 100 Baldor 15H and 18H controls and never once had a failure out of the gate.
> I did a good bit of business in the aggregate industry and they would not allow Baldor in any application.
> I installed a Baldor once on the weekend as I had it in stock.
> They said they would buy it, but wanted Benshaw installed just as soon as we could get one delivered.
> ...


I used to work a lot with the people at Sweo Drives in Seattle before Baldor bought them, putting VFDs on fishing vessels, which is about as nasty as you can get (watch an episode of Deadliest Catch, I put VFDs on those boats!). The 15 and 18H were Sweo designs; great drives, extremely rugged. But Baldor moved them to Ft. Smith AR to be "part of the family". When they did that, 90% of the Sweo people elected to NOT move from Seattle to Arkansas (go figure...). When Baldor got back into production in Ft. Smith, there were a LOT of out of the box field failures for about a year, maybe more. I was an integrator/contractor at the time and although I was a loyal Sweo / Baldor user, I finally had to give up and switch. Even though Baldor replaced every drive without question, as an integrator and installer for the aggregate industry ("high maintenance"? YOU BET!), I was losing my ass in field labor costs for call-outs to swap them. Baldor eventually got their sh__ together and I'm sure they were fine again, but I never went back because by then, ABB and A-B were spoon feeding projects to me and I got addicted to easy money. Now there would be no point as the Baldor drives ARE the ABB drives.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

JRaef, Magnetek is the one. Thanks.
I remember very well when Roland Boreham decided to bring the drive operation to Arkansas.
I had been dealing with Seattle on a regular basis. Non of those guys wanted to go to Arkansas. Could not blame them.
So we ended up with a couple that helped with the transition and some new young engineers. I was there twice in Ft. Smith during this transition.
I could have gotten on with them as I knew most everyone well and I knew the product. I am no engineer though.

Roland died several years ago. One of the nicest guys you want to meet.
I have a picture of him and me together as he presented the "Certified Baldor Drive Repair Center" to me and the distributor I worked for.

Roland Boreham death:
http://www.packworld.com/former-baldor-ceo-and-chairman-passes-away


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## 24VDC (Feb 4, 2017)

Yaskawa all the way. I support several farmers in the the immediate area around Wichita, KS. The problem that most suffer from is damage caused by lightning. For the most part we have been able to mitigate the problem by installing a lightning arrestor and a line reactor in the VFD enclosure when we return the repaired VFD to the customer. I install many A1000s and P1000s for local businesses. In the seven years since I moved to Wichita, I have performed very few warranty repairs. All of the 7th generation and 10th generation VFDs are capable of communicating via DeviceNet, Ethernet/IP and Modbus TCP just to name a few. I have replaced many Allen Bradley VFDs with Yaskawa VFDs. Not once have I had a customer complain about Yaskawa. Most customers start planning to replace all of their existing VFDs with Yaskawa after they experience the user friendliness and reliability.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

24VDC said:


> Yaskawa all the way. I support several farmers in the the immediate area around Wichita, KS. The problem that most suffer from is damage caused by lightning. For the most part we have been able to mitigate the problem by installing a lightning arrestor and a line reactor in the VFD enclosure when we return the repaired VFD to the customer. I install many A1000s and P1000s for local businesses. In the seven years since I moved to Wichita, I have performed very few warranty repairs. All of the 7th generation and 10th generation VFDs are capable of communicating via DeviceNet, Ethernet/IP and Modbus TCP just to name a few. I have replaced many Allen Bradley VFDs with Yaskawa VFDs. Not once have I had a customer complain about Yaskawa. Most customers start planning to replace all of their existing VFDs with Yaskawa after they experience the user friendliness and reliability.


Sounds like it! If it can endure the conditions and the abuse equipment takes in a farm setting, it has to be almost bullet proof.

Are you a Yaskawa service center and or distributor?
I am assuming you are, since you say you handle warranty claims?
I like Yaskawa as well. And there are many drives at one time that Yaskawa built, that had other manufacturer labeling. Did you read Jreafs comments above? He is our forum drive specialist and much more.
Yaskawa is tough and fairly easy to program. 

What drives are you replacing with Yaskawa? Just curious as I was in the motor and drive business for several years.

Welcome to the forum. :thumbsup:


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## Corysan (Jan 20, 2017)

A-B was the only on-the shelf drive available locally until recently for me. Powerflex 40 was fairly user friendly. Powerflex 525 and newer try to simplify usability by complicating it, and add new parameters that just regroup existing parameters. Lentze was easy from what I recall. JRaef is totally right about the Schneider manuals, but I like the capabilities offered in a base level drive. If you use a Schneider and can swing the cost, get the add-on HMI. It speeds up manual programming dramatically. Danfoss was really nice for it's display. Teco seems low end and the O/L settings are wierd. On the 1hp drive I worked on, you had to figure the percentage of overload current you wanted to set it for, and match that up to a percentage of the drive output current rating- pretty hoaky.

It seems to me that any sensorless vector drive is the same as the next with the exception of user interface. I guess it depends on what you are doing with the drive. Some drives offer standard features that would be an upgrade for another. High end applications will require something different than simply running a stand-alone conveyor or pump. Any drive will do for a simple application only looking for ramp up and down and speed control.


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## 24VDC (Feb 4, 2017)

Thanks for the Welcome John! I did not read Jraef's comments before I posted. I have ran across his comments on other forums. He has helped me with motor theory and VFD theory. I am glad to see he is on this forum. We are the Yaskawa Authorized Service Provider for Kansas, however; we do travel throughout the United States and other countries. Most of the VFDs that we replace with Yaskawa are Allen Bradley. We have also replaced TB Woods, ABB, Toshiba...etc. We will diagnose any brand of VFD, but unfortunately we do not have much success getting replacement parts from the manufacturers as most of them want the VFD sent back to them for repair. We have a local Yaskawa supplier that provides us with parts and VFDs. We only keep a select few repair parts on our shelf.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

24VDC said:


> Thanks for the Welcome John! I did not read Jraef's comments before I posted. I have ran across his comments on other forums. He has helped me with motor theory and VFD theory. I am glad to see he is on this forum. We are the Yaskawa Authorized Service Provider for Kansas, however; we do travel throughout the United States and other countries. Most of the VFDs that we replace with Yaskawa are Allen Bradley. We have also replaced TB Woods, ABB, Toshiba...etc. We will diagnose any brand of VFD, but unfortunately we do not have much success getting replacement parts from the manufacturers as most of them want the VFD sent back to them for repair. We have a local Yaskawa supplier that provides us with parts and VFDs. We only keep a select few repair parts on our shelf.


My pleasure 24volt.
So you service Yaskawa, but have to rely on a distributor for parts and drives?
Have you considered going to Yaskawa and see about becoming a distributor? You may be able to do that, then you get your middle man out of the picture and then you can work directly with the manufacturer.

I have not been involved for some time now, but if you have a relationship with Yaskawa, they should be able to set you up.
Some manufacturers will even set you up without you stocking anything. But of course a stocking distributor will get a better multiplier.
You do say you do stock some parts already.

Think of the advantage you will have if you can deal with them directly.
Direct technical support. Special pricing and even better pricing if you stock a few drives.
Becoming a distributor is much easier than some people think. Even a non-stocking distributorship is possible as I said above.
I'm not sure what Yaskawa's policy is though. I would call them.


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## Corysan (Jan 20, 2017)

> I did not read Jraef's comments before I posted. I have ran across his comments on other forums. He has helped me with motor theory and VFD theory.


I'm new here too, and really just getting my feet wet with VFD's. Jraef has been super helpful. Shhhh! I think I can hear him blushing. Really though, two thumbs up for you Jraef. Far too few people are willing to share their hard earned knowledge.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

Corysan said:


> I'm new here too, and really just getting my feet wet with VFD's. Jraef has been super helpful. Shhhh! I think I can hear him blushing. Really though, two thumbs up for you Jraef. Far too few people are willing to share their hard earned knowledge.


Don't inflate his head too much. He might just float away. :laughing: :thumbsup:

Keep in mind he is an engineer.


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## 24VDC (Feb 4, 2017)

John, I appreciate your insight. Right now we are growing in many directions. In the future we may pursue getting set up as a distributor. VFD sales, service and repair is only a portion of what we do. I hope we can grow that part of the business enough that becoming a distributor will become a necessity.


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

Our shop goes with abb. Keep getting them through the same supplier, and they send their own rep to come in as a specialist to program them for each specific need. Completely satisfied.as a novice programmer, it's usually a two man operation to program. One to read the directions, one to hit the buttons, before the damn thing resets on you. Don't get it me wrong, but every motor needs specific perameters. Leave it up to someone that will give you the most bang for your buck.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

Cl906um said:


> Our shop goes with abb. Keep getting them through the same supplier, and they send their own rep to come in as a specialist to program them for each specific need. Completely satisfied.as a novice programmer, it's usually a two man operation to program. One to read the directions, one to hit the buttons, before the damn thing resets on you. Don't get it me wrong, but every motor needs specific perameters. Leave it up to someone that will give you the most bang for your buck.


That's interesting, I've programmed every drive I've ever installed. Never even thought of having someone else do it. 

I've also reprogrammed quite a few that came factory installed and were supposed to be programmed at the factory.


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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

Cl906um said:


> Our shop goes with abb. Keep getting them through the same supplier, and they send their own rep to come in as a specialist to program them for each specific need. Completely satisfied.as a novice programmer, it's usually a two man operation to program. One to read the directions, one to hit the buttons, before the damn thing resets on you. Don't get it me wrong, but every motor needs specific perameters. Leave it up to someone that will give you the most bang for your buck.


The only way to get better at something is to practice, that can't happen if you have someone else doing it for you.

My first VFD installs were setting up PID's on Powerflex 400's. Talk about a learning curve! I remember the first couple times I commissioned drives, I'd spend a few HOURS getting it to run and then tweaking and tuning it to run on a constant pressure system. I didn't care how long it took to program, I wanted to understand what it took to make them run and maintain a setpoint well. It seemed like I was constantly staring at the manual and entering and re-entering parameters, I'm glad those days are behind me now!!

These newer drives like ABB and Yaskawa we've been using more recently seem to be light years ahead of those PF400's we used to install. Quick start guides and smart startup assistants, there's nothing to it anymore. 

So much easier to setup now.

I know our local ABB distributor offers classes every now and then, I think it would be worth your while to see if you can attend one. I believe they're free and they will do a lab at your shop if you ask them. If you take the ABB class and get "ABB drive certified", I think it comes with some perks? Any drives you install now may come with a longer warranty???


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## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

John Valdes said:


> Don't inflate his head too much. He might just float away. :laughing: :thumbsup:
> 
> Keep in mind he is an engineer.


But I haven't forgotten that I started out as an Electrician. My roots are in the trades, even though my head is in the clouds now... :blink:


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

Cow said:


> The only way to get better at something is to practice, that can't happen if you have someone else doing it for you.
> 
> My first VFD installs were setting up PID's on Powerflex 400's. Talk about a learning curve! I remember the first couple times I commissioned drives, I'd spend a few HOURS getting it to run and then tweaking and tuning it to run on a constant pressure system. I didn't care how long it took to program, I wanted to understand what it took to make them run and maintain a setpoint well. It seemed like I was constantly staring at the manual and entering and re-entering parameters, I'm glad those days are behind me now!!
> 
> ...


I have programmed them in the past. Never minded it, but the company I am with now doesn't want the liability that goes with setting them up for many different applications. Takes some of the heat off of us if something fails.


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## Mcswain (Dec 25, 2016)

At the tech. school I'm attending we hooked up and programmed PowerFlex 4 and Automation Direct GS1 both keypad control and external start stop. Was a breeze! I was intrigued by the VFD's ? I love this stuff!


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

Mcswain said:


> At the tech. school I'm attending we hooked up and programmed PowerFlex 4 and Automation Direct GS1 both keypad control and external start stop. Was a breeze! I was intrigued by the VFD's ? I love this stuff!


Keep at it. We will need guys like you to take the place of us older guys. :thumbsup:

BTW....I have no idea how old or young you are!


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## Mcswain (Dec 25, 2016)

38 years young sir!!


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## Mcswain (Dec 25, 2016)

John Valdes said:


> Mcswain said:
> 
> 
> > At the tech. school I'm attending we hooked up and programmed PowerFlex 4 and Automation Direct GS1 both keypad control and external start stop. Was a breeze! I was intrigued by the VFD's ? I love this stuff!
> ...


 I love this stuff!! Waiting to hear from IBEW so hopefully I can learn from the best and pass it along to the next gen.


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## sparkiez (Aug 1, 2015)

24VDC said:


> Thanks for the Welcome John! I did not read Jraef's comments before I posted. I have ran across his comments on other forums. He has helped me with motor theory and VFD theory. I am glad to see he is on this forum. We are the Yaskawa Authorized Service Provider for Kansas, however; we do travel throughout the United States and other countries. Most of the VFDs that we replace with Yaskawa are Allen Bradley. We have also replaced TB Woods, ABB, Toshiba...etc. We will diagnose any brand of VFD, but unfortunately we do not have much success getting replacement parts from the manufacturers as most of them want the VFD sent back to them for repair. We have a local Yaskawa supplier that provides us with parts and VFDs. We only keep a select few repair parts on our shelf.


Welcome to the forums. +1 for ACES. Worked a couple projects with you guys, and you guys are a top notch company! Learned a lot working with you.

I do like AB drives, but that is just because I'm quite familiar with them and most of the PLC's I have worked with were Allen Bradley.

My least favorite would have to be the Emerson line of drives. Between the cryptic interface and manuals and the firmware bugs, they were a real PITA.

As far as servo drives, I have seen Lenze drives take a TON of abuse. They are tough cookies.


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## Peewee0413 (Oct 18, 2012)

AB 525 for automation for PLC simplicity. Automation Direct for general purpose conveyor control . Automation Direct drives can take some heat from personal experience. I once installed MANY GS2's in enclosures so undersized (thanks to the engineer) I had to remove the back plate to close the door. Ran 24/7 in the desert heat for years with no issues. 

Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

Why in the world would you ever bother with AB drives? Noisy pieces of crap as far as hardware. Very confusing menu structures. And yes they network but with one exception, networking is a terrible, terrible idea in its current state, especially the way AB does it!

Heres why networking is such a pain. VFDs are going to last on average 100,000 hours regardless of which manufacturer you use. There are only 3 IGBT manufacturers abc they all only write contracts for so many years of support, forcing design changes every ten years. By that time drive dimensions, feature sets, everything changes. This means the network parameters all change too. However discrete wiring (4-20 mA analog signals and dry contacts) works across ALL brands and ALL models, every time. If networking is going to be better, it better equal or exceed hard wiring. That is sadly not where we are today.

Ultimately we need device profiles with networking. Think of how a mouse works on a PC. If your mouse dies you can go to any electronics store or even a dollar store and get a new one. When you plug it in it tells the PC that it’s a mouse, resolution, number of buttons, if it has a scroll wheel, and so forth. It just works. This happens because there is a standard for “mouse” devices on USB. Even if you get past programming and setting up a drive, it just doesn’t “work” without reprogramming the PLC unless it is very similar in terms of brand and model, something many sites don’t have access to.

Strangely enough there is a device profile for drives defined in DeviceNet and Ethernet/IP, it is even implemented in SOME AB drives and some competitors. But the device profiles that exist are extremely limited in capabilities and there are only a few. AB flat out does not use them at all! They instead opt for obscure proprietary ones. I’ve tried using the drive device profile. It does work with Schneider if you figure out the bugs but not with AB at all, ever, except reading data.

So once you get to the point of doing all control via discrete wiring, the networking stuff is useless except maybe programming and commissioning. And with that being said I really like Schneider 300/600/900 drives for one feature. You point your phone at the QR code and it automatically opens the manual. If it’s pointed at the error screen if pops open the manual to the troubleshooting section, I like Benshaw H2 because you can set up and manage the programming settings “in the cloud” and do everything AB setup utilities do right off your phone. This simple feature negates networking with AB.


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## Peewee0413 (Oct 18, 2012)

AB has the ability to set the IP and the parameters get sent by the PLC. That's if you don't swap the covers and it just wire it up.15 minute changeover either way. 

Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

Peewee0413 said:


> AB has the ability to set the IP and the parameters get sent by the PLC. That's if you don't swap the covers and it just wire it up.15 minute changeover either way.
> 
> Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk


On the same model yes. And it must be the same firmware. What if it’s a 1336 if you find one, PF 4/40/400, PF 70, or 755 or 525? What if the firmware version is different? Then you are SCREWED!! You have to start over. Just in the PF “series” they’ve gone through 3 generations in 10 years.

With most VFDs, AB included, you can simply copy the data to the display and then copy it to the new drive if you have identical drives. Best to make sure to copy the settings BEFORE the drive dies of course. Same thing if you do it in the PLC or on a laptop but the display trick works every time where the PLC stuff doesn’t. Still if your drive manufacturer is changing firmwares every six months (such as AB) it’s hard to ensure any of this will work.

Now imagine if you could plug in ANY drive and it just worked. Just like you can plug in ANY mouse and it just works. It works on any mouse and any laptop, Why can’t it work with drives?

That being said with an analog interface it is a rare day that I can’t make any drive work in any system. Try doing that with networking. And before you go off saying just reprogram the PLC AB puts out a new version of their PLC software every six months. Keeping up is a total nightmare. And Siemens is just as bad. Never mind all the other brands out there.That’s assuming you can even get access which quite often is not possible for the hardware guys and the software guys aren’t going to be removing and installing drives because it can’t be done using a keyboard and a mouse.

So excuse me if the networking features fall on deaf ears. At that point we are left with crummy interfaces that are hard to navigate, poor documentation of most parameters, and a horrendous tendency to make everything a Royal pain. For instance say I put a 525 into a 3 contactor bypass. What happens when the bypass controller drops the input contactor? Fault! How about if the output contactor timing is slightly off so it doesn’t see a motor right away? Fault! On other drive brands in these cases you turn off these protective features but it cannot be done on a 525.

As of right now if I have to use AB, the 750 series is not bad if a little long in the tooth. The Schneider 300/600/900 series is nice when you can find one (supply chain). The Benshaw H2 is a very sweet drive. Supply has been tight but at least available. Yaskawa also seems to be pretty improved.


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## Peewee0413 (Oct 18, 2012)

I guess it's all about application. I work in the food industry and packaging. The Equipment I work on works well with 525's, safety PLC's. We use thin clients, and Hope Industry touch screens. I can see where some drives perform better than others. It's why there are different ones. We use Yaskawa for our cooling tower, which works extremely well....

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