# Kitchen wiring



## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

Dedicated 15 amp branch circuits for
Microwave, dishwasher, garbage disposal and exhaust hood. 
Acceptable or not??

Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*Sort of*

Yes, unless the micro is over 1800'ish 

Perfectly fine


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Depends on the house, but I normally use a 20 dedicated for each of those


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## Mr. Sparkle (Jan 27, 2009)

Sal, 

In all seriousness.

Do you own a copy of the NEC?

I'm not trying to be rude, I really want to know.

FWIW, I would not pull a 15 for the dedicated micro circuit, ever.

The rest, sure.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

I would swear that every microwave I've seen recommended a 20A ckt.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

wildleg said:


> I would swear that every microwave I've seen recommended a 20A ckt.


I agree.. but I always full a 20A. line in case it gets changed down the road..

Call me stupid.. .. but I would be embarrassed to sell a 15A. line and the customer goes and buys a bigger unit a few years later that needs a 20A. line..

IMO.. we as professionals should know better since for a few dollars more the customer is covered..

I don't know anyone who would not want to spend an extra $10.00 for a heavier line..


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

I aways have pulled 20's for kitchen and for dinning room. People can plug alsorta stuff in on small app/circuits. electric fry pans waffle makers ect. Dishwashers have heating elements for fast dry cycle aswell, plus it up :thumbsup: Read up 210.21(b)(2) and think of loads placed on these cirs.


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## Clarky (Sep 25, 2011)

Been in this business over 20 years and have not once bought 14-2 or 3 wire to use in a house. always 12-2


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Clarky said:


> Been in this business over 20 years and have not once bought 14-2 or 3 wire to use in a house. always 12-2


:laughing: :laughing: :lol:


As for the original question, perfectly fine. Unless you happen to be an Inspector from Westford MA.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> Dedicated 15 amp branch circuits for
> Microwave, dishwasher, garbage disposal and exhaust hood.
> Acceptable or not??
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum





wildleg said:


> I would swear that every microwave I've seen recommended a 20A ckt.


Not saying this isn't true but I just checked specs on a bunch of micros and all say 15 or 20 amp dedicated circuit. Same thing for dishwashers. Many of the kitchens I do have more 15 amp circuits than 20 amp. :tt2:


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## Mr. Sparkle (Jan 27, 2009)

Clarky said:


> Been in this business over 20 years and have not once bought 14-2 or 3 wire to use in a house. always 12-2


To echo the words of another user on this very forum....

Why?


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Mr. Sparkle said:


> To echo the words of another user on this very forum....
> 
> Why?


Much like copper is "better" than aluminum, #12 is "better" than #14. :laughing: :no:


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Clarky said:


> Been in this business over 20 years and have not once bought 14-2 or 3 wire to use in a house. always 12-2


 
I love bidding against people like you...


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## 19kilosparky984 (Sep 14, 2011)

mcclary's electrical said:


> I love bidding against people like you...


Yea no ****.

Hey can you come down to NJ and bid some jobs like that.

I would love to raise my prices


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## Aldo Moretti (Aug 29, 2011)

Clarky said:


> Been in this business over 20 years and have not once bought 14-2 or 3 wire to use in a house. always 12-2


Me too The code requires at least 2 20 amp circuits to kitchens for small appliances, and dedicated circuits for microwave ovens, dishwashers, insta-hot water heaters, grinders, and refrigerators. The lighting must not be shared on any of these circuits either, but can be shared with other rooms and a range hood. A microwave oven that is rated at 13 amps cannot be fed by a 15 amp circuit.
I have seen some crazy installations over the years.
A gypo remodeling company came in and remodeled a bunch of kitchens in a tract.
They were installing cooktops with the flat elements that require a separate 40 amp circuit onto the existing 30 amp circuit that fed both the oven and the cooktop. The houses had a Zinsco panels, so the breakers never tripped out.
Often times a fly by night kitchen remodel company will give a price on a kitchen remodel, but it won't include an electrical upgrade. An electrical upgrade would cost twice as much as the kitchen remodel costs ! They tell their customer that an electrician should do the electrical upgrade for about $1500, the customer calls me and I say it's usually around $10,000 for a kitchen, most likely a new sub panel and around 8 new circuits . The customer freaks out, lets these monkeys install a new kitchen on the cheap, and then moans when that old 15 amp circuit that feeds all the small appliances, refrigerator and lighting trips out all the time. I just laugh and say since the remodel has already been done, it will now cost $12,000 for the electric, plus the carpentry, drywall and painting costs (to be done by others).


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*?*

A microwave oven that is rated at 13 amps cannot be fed by a 15 amp circuit.

Are you sure? Just checking. I have no idea what the answer is but I'm just checking. Can you explain?


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Aldo Moretti said:


> Me too The code requires at least 2 20 amp circuits to kitchens for small appliances, and dedicated circuits for microwave ovens, dishwashers, insta-hot water heaters, grinders, and refrigerators. The lighting must not be shared on any of these circuits either, but can be shared with other rooms and a range hood. A microwave oven that is rated at 13 amps cannot be fed by a 15 amp circuit.
> I have seen some crazy installations over the years.
> A gypo remodeling company came in and remodeled a bunch of kitchens in a tract.
> They were installing cooktops with the flat elements that require a separate 40 amp circuit onto the existing 30 amp circuit that fed both the oven and the cooktop. The houses had a Zinsco panels, so the breakers never tripped out.
> Often times a fly by night kitchen remodel company will give a price on a kitchen remodel, but it won't include an electrical upgrade. An electrical upgrade would cost twice as much as the kitchen remodel costs ! They tell their customer that an electrician should do the electrical upgrade for about $1500, the customer calls me and I say it's usually around $10,000 for a kitchen, most likely a new sub panel and around 8 new circuits . The customer freaks out, lets these monkeys install a new kitchen on the cheap, and then moans when that old 15 amp circuit that feeds all the small appliances, refrigerator and lighting trips out all the time. I just laugh and say since the remodel has already been done, it will now cost $12,000 for the electric, plus the carpentry, drywall and painting costs (to be done by others).



This code???? :no:


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## Mr. Sparkle (Jan 27, 2009)

Aldo Moretti said:


> Often times a fly by night kitchen remodel company will give a price on a kitchen remodel, but it won't include an electrical upgrade. An electrical upgrade would cost twice as much as the kitchen remodel costs ! They tell their customer that an electrician should do the electrical upgrade for about $1500, the customer calls me and I say it's usually around $10,000 for a kitchen, most likely a new sub panel and around 8 new circuits . The customer freaks out, lets these monkeys install a new kitchen on the cheap, and then moans when that old 15 amp circuit that feeds all the small appliances, refrigerator and lighting trips out all the time. I just laugh and say since the remodel has already been done, it will now cost $12,000 for the electric, plus the carpentry, drywall and painting costs (to be done by others).


The sh*t is getting deep in this post right here........anybody installing a kitchen that is going to need a subpanel and 8 new circuits number one, has definitely been in contact with an electrician regarding wiring their "new hip appliances to install in yuppie kitchen" and two, has the money to pay for it.

Oh....and if you are charging $10,000 for a subpanel and 8 home runs to a resi kitchen, good for you.


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

I would be carefull on the fridge too if your doing high end stuff. Sub zeros are beasts with lots of bells and whistles. But for your average one 15 is fine. 
I pretty much run 12 for everything now. It only cost a few bucks more and allows for future stuff. Ive gotten burned a couple of times running 14 for kit equipment.


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> Dedicated 15 amp branch circuits for
> Microwave, dishwasher, garbage disposal and exhaust hood.
> Acceptable or not??
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


Perfectly acceptable in my opinion. I do the same thing, 14-3 for micro/fridge and another one for the dish/disposal.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

captkirk said:


> I would be carefull on the fridge too if your doing high end stuff. Sub zeros are beasts with lots of bells and whistles. But for your average one 15 is fine.
> I pretty much run 12 for everything now. It only cost a few bucks more and allows for future stuff. Ive gotten burned a couple of times running 14 for kit equipment.


I don't think I've seen a Sub Z that needs a 20 amp circuit. In fact the big bad pro 48 which is a 48" unit only needs a 15 amp circuit. 

I find myself using less and less #12. A little homework saves a little $$


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

Mr. Sparkle said:


> Sal,
> 
> In all seriousness.
> 
> ...


I'm trying to get my guys to enroll in electrician talk. The conversation this afternoon at lunch was the aforementioned above. So, I explained to them that all of you have these smart phones put them to use.

Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


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## Mr. Sparkle (Jan 27, 2009)

electricmanscott said:


> A little homework saves a little $$


Shhhhh.....some of these guys might figure out that you can legally tap off certain circuits that might be in the kitchen.


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## electricalperson (Jan 11, 2008)

do it right and run a #12 for appliances. the wire and receptacles we install could possibly be there for the next 50 or 60 years. why not do it right the first time so nobody else has to replace the work we did. who knows what the future may bring that home


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## Aldo Moretti (Aug 29, 2011)

Bkessler said:


> Perfectly acceptable in my opinion. I do the same thing, 14-3 for micro/fridge and another one for the dish/disposal.


I don't really know for sure, but I was taught that all refrigerators require a dedicated 20 amp circuit, and sub-zeros are no exception.
I say, if one is going through the effort to run a circuit, why not run a 20 ?
It doesn't add any extra time and only a few cents more for the cost of wire for each circuit.
Most modest older single family detached houses had 100 or 125 amp main load centers that are usually full, even though the houses are woefully under wired.
The requirements have changed since those houses were built many years ago, and also there are many more fancy appliances and devices being marketed to the "yuppies". So, the choice is to upgrade the main service to 200 amps and use a full sized 42 circuit panel, or try and weasel in a double pole circuit into the old panel to feed a sub panel for the new kitchen.
And when doing a whole house upgrade, I have seen experienced contractors forget that a double pole AFCI is required for circuits feeding bedrooms, that takes up more space in the panel that before, and if not considered in the initial design phase, I have seen them rip out new panels and install bigger ones.
I think this AFCI thing is just a corporate plan that they get the building officials to enforce to enrich their profits. I don't like it, but what can I do about it ? It all adds up to me having to charge customers more to feed the corporations and the governments that they dictate orders to.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

electricalperson said:


> do it right and run a #12 for appliances. the wire and receptacles we install could possibly be there for the next 50 or 60 years. why not do it right the first time so nobody else has to replace the work we did. who knows what the future may bring that home



What exactly is wrong about what's being said in this thread other than wasting #12 where it is totally unnecessary? :blink:


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

All seem to pose good answers. But, what if you had to repeat this for 30 apts. And the contractor specifies " I want everything to code" and "cheap". What do you do??

Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Aldo Moretti said:


> I don't really know for sure, but I was taught that all refrigerators require a dedicated 20 amp circuit, and sub-zeros are no exception.
> I say, if one is going through the effort to run a circuit, why not run a 20 ?
> It doesn't add any extra time and only a few cents more for the cost of wire for each circuit.
> Most modest older single family detached houses had 100 or 125 amp main load centers that are usually full, even though the houses are woefully under wired.
> ...


Are you an electrician?


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## Mr. Sparkle (Jan 27, 2009)

electricalperson said:


> do it right and run a #12 for appliances. the wire and receptacles we install could possibly be there for the next 50 or 60 years. why not do it right the first time so nobody else has to replace the work we did. who knows what the future may bring that home


Hey, this one is right at the beginning of the NEC.........

*90.1 (B) Adequacy.* This Code contains provisions that are con-
sidered necessary for safety. Compliance therewith and
proper maintenance results in an installation that is essen-
tially free from hazard but not necessarily efficient, conve-
nient, or adequate for good service or future expansion of
electrical use.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

In this economy it pays to work smart. Running all #12 where not required or needed is not smart.


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

electricmanscott said:


> I don't think I've seen a Sub Z that needs a 20 amp circuit. In fact the big bad pro 48 which is a 48" unit only needs a 15 amp circuit.
> 
> I find myself using less and less #12. A little homework saves a little $$


 I was just gonna say that...If your lucky anough to have all the specs on the units before hand sure, its not a bad idea to save a few bucks. NO reason to be a hero, esecially now. 
I did a house last spring and the panel was on he opposite end of the home and the GC was a tool bag so he got 15's.
When I say i like to run 12, I mean that I bid for it, but if they nickle and dime they get min.


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

electricmanscott said:


> I don't think I've seen a Sub Z that needs a 20 amp circuit. In fact the big bad pro 48 which is a 48" unit only needs a 15 amp circuit.
> 
> I find myself using less and less #12. A little homework saves a little $$


 hmpf....your right I just looked through their site and miele....I remember about 9 years ago doing a big big home and we had some trouble because we ran a 14 wire and the specs said 20. I remember because my boss was pissed. Maybe they have become more efficeint since then....Woo Hoo... 
I knew there was a reason I come to these sites..


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Even with all the specs.. I would only run #12 for a high end kitchen..

I did a house a few years ago and the HO bought some wacky DW that needed a 20a circuit..

That has been the only one I have seen so far and I avoided a mess by running #12 to CMA..:thumbsup:


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

B4T said:


> Even with all the specs.. I would only run #12 for a high end kitchen..
> 
> I did a house a few years ago and the HO bought some wacky DW that needed a 20a circuit..
> 
> That has been the only one I have seen so far and I avoided a mess by running #12 to CMA..:thumbsup:


You also have a beeper. :whistling2:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

electricmanscott said:


> You also have a beeper. :whistling2:


So what.. the thing hasn't missed a call in almost (15) years no matter where I was working..

A cell phone can't match that record.. :no:

Sometimes Sprint takes more than a day to post my voicemail.. not good when you have 24/7 365 accounts..


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

B4T said:


> So what.. the thing hasn't missed a call in almost (15) years no matter where I was working..
> 
> A cell phone can't match that record.. :no:
> 
> Sometimes Sprint takes more than a day to post my voicemail.. not good when you have 24/7 365 accounts..


:notworthy: :lol:


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## Aldo Moretti (Aug 29, 2011)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> All seem to pose good answers. But, what if you had to repeat this for 30 apts. And the contractor specifies " I want everything to code" and "cheap". What do you do??
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


If you have insurance that allows you to work on multi- family developments like condos, town homes and apartments with shared walls, ceilings and floors, then you can take all the risks that you want to, and do whatever the developers order, as long as it in the minimum code requirements. That is why you pay 100 times more for insurance than I do, but good luck if you ever need to file a claim.
They say that shared wall buildings are built the same way as houses, but that is not true.
Even some single family detached houses that I have upgraded were woefully under wired.
There was a developer here in Marin and other parts of the bay area named Joseph Eichler. He built many housing tracts in the 50's. He had a Joey way of doing things, and I have seen firsthand his style. I could go on and on, but the most impressive thing that Joey did was to feed 4 bedrooms with one 15 amp circuit for lighting and receptacles. And his kitchens were stellar too!
Joey used Japanese wood paneling with special explosive glue instead of sheetrock, and the houses were famous for burning to the ground from electrical fires in 3 minutes. I guess what he did was quasi-legal at the time.
Some people are in the electrical business to do as much work as possible and cutting corners as much as they can, doing every thing to the minimum quality that they can get away with legally. To each their own.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

electricmanscott said:


> :notworthy: :lol:


So Scott.. what is your point or are you just getting a woody being a Troll.. :no:


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

My point is simple. It is very rare that a kitchen appliance needs or requires a 20 amp circuit. If it makes you feel more manly because you installed bigger wire with a bigger circuit breaker knock yourself out.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

B4T said:


> So Scott.. what is your point or are you just getting a woody being a Troll.. :no:


 

c'mon man, you gotta admit that was funny:laughing:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

electricmanscott said:


> My point is simple. It is very rare that a kitchen appliance needs or requires a 20 amp circuit. If it makes you feel more manly because you installed bigger wire with a bigger circuit breaker knock yourself out.


You must be enjoying being a moron tonight.. either stop or start drinking.. 

More manly to run a 20a circuit.. :blink::blink:


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

Totally cracks me up.

14/2 opposed to 12/2 - per foot.

If you are that cheap to run the 14/2 instead of 12/2 for something in a kitchen...


Never mind- :no::no::no::no::jester:


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

leland said:


> Totally cracks me up.
> 
> 14/2 opposed to 12/2 - per foot.
> 
> ...


 

What if it's a 50 unit apartment complex and the panels are a long ways from the kitchen, and you did it for evey appliance, DW, micro, GD, fridge. 
The savings could be in the thousands...


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

leland said:


> Totally cracks me up.
> 
> 14/2 opposed to 12/2 - per foot.
> 
> ...


I don't know that trying to make as much money in this business as possible is considered cheap. :no: And who runs 2 wire ciruits anyway? :thumbsup:


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> What if it's a 50 unit apartment complex and the panels are a long ways from the kitchen, and you did it for evey appliance, DW, micro, GD, fridge.
> The savings could be in the thousands...


Or 50 kitchens over the course of a year.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

leland said:


> Totally cracks me up.
> 
> 14/2 opposed to 12/2 - per foot.
> 
> ...


Exactly, does this leland guy even run a company?


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

I have seen many microwaves that require a dedicate 15 amp circuit. I generally run a 20 amp circuit just in case a larger one is installed. Most are 1200 watts and less. I have a 1.65 kw range hood microwave/convection oven and it would work on a 15 amp circuit. I doubt they make 120v units much bigger than that one.

1650/120= 13.75 amps.


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

We typically install a 20 amp circuit for the microwave. The minimum additional cost is built into the bid.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

I run all 20a for everything in the kitchen except the lights and the heavy stuff.

I give an f how much it costs.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

electricalperson said:


> do it right and run a #12 for appliances.



Right?

If the appliance directions require a 15 amp circuit and you run 14 you are already using conductors rated 20 amps. 

Most times people run 12 instead of 14 just so they can feel they did better than the guy that runs 14. Just an ego thing.


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

All pose good questions weather cost vs code or what they percieve as good practice. So 210.23(a)(1) 80% leaves 12amps available on the 15. I think it is good practice to leave more potenial...I always put the fridge alone on 15, then counter 2cirs on 20s. And 20s for micro/diswasher. (4 cirs at 20) This would be on non-spec job my discretion....


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

I just looked through a bunch of fridge manufactureres specs and they all say 15 amp.....no shi t ... I think my days of 12 wire for them are over.. 

Let me ask you guys this....has anyone seen dishwashers call for anything bigger that 15 amps...? 

Im gonna stick with 12 for microwaves.


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

captkirk said:


> I just looked through a bunch of fridge manufactureres specs and they all say 15 amp.....no shi t ... I think my days of 12 wire for them are over..
> 
> Let me ask you guys this....has anyone seen dishwashers call for anything bigger that 15 amps...?
> 
> Im gonna stick with 12 for microwaves.


 Ok take it astep farther ...are you going to pull it as a 14/3 or a 12/3 with the disposal and dishwasher cir., (if it's not spec'd)? I see it like this, the older guys (like me) are use to power hungry appliances. The new stuff draws less but people have more sxxt plugged in than ever!! What do I/you precieve as right (80 % rule)


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

Aldo Moretti said:


> If you have insurance that allows you to work on multi- family developments like condos, town homes and apartments with shared walls, ceilings and floors, then you can take all the risks that you want to, and do whatever the developers order, as long as it in the minimum code requirements. That is why you pay 100 times more for insurance than I do, but good luck if you ever need to file a claim.
> They say that shared wall buildings are built the same way as houses, but that is not true.
> Even some single family detached houses that I have upgraded were woefully under wired.
> There was a developer here in Marin and other parts of the bay area named Joseph Eichler. He built many housing tracts in the 50's. He had a Joey way of doing things, and I have seen firsthand his style. I could go on and on, but the most impressive thing that Joey did was to feed 4 bedrooms with one 15 amp circuit for lighting and receptacles. And his kitchens were stellar too!
> ...


I get your point!! But, i am only required to do the min. There are reasons why we only have to provide the min. So, why should I exceed that. There's big difference btw bidding a job at bare min rather then exceeding it based on personal preferences.

Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Right?
> Most times people run 12 instead of 14 just so they can feel they did better than the guy that runs 14. Just an ego thing.


So if I am doing a high end kitchen and I run #12 for dedicated circuits for sub-zero.. microwave.. and DW.. I am only doing it to feel better about myself..:blink::blink:

Besides getting paid to run the larger circuit.. what is wrong with not taking any chances with appliances having the wrong specs..

I would feel pretty stupid to start cutting holes in a finished job because I wanted to save $30.00 on running a smaller wire..

Say the HO asks me why I am hacking up his new kitchen.. how do I justify running #14 instead of 12.. *especially* when he hears the difference in price..


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> I get your point!! But, i am only required to do the min. There are reasons why we only have to provide the min. So, why should I exceed that. There's big difference btw bidding a job at bare min rather then exceeding it based on personal preferences.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


 So if they are requiring a bare-min bid do just that.... and offer the option to them of plusing it up.bid (a)min-code bid (B) upgrades. that justifies added cost and turns the table. Every other trade does it! Witch furnance do ya want 80/90/95/lol


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

B4T said:


> So if I am doing a high end kitchen and I run #12 for dedicated circuits for sub-zero.. microwave.. and DW.. I am only doing it to feel better about myself..:blink::blink:


There is no other reason to do it.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

electricmanscott said:


> There is no other reason to do it.


Read the last line of that same post and tell me what you would tell the HO..

Even you and BBQ can't be 100% positive one of the appliances won't need a 20a circuit instead of a 15a... 

What about (3) years from now.. the HO buys the latest model and finds out the circuit isn't heavy enough and the kitchen guys tell him you saved a few dollars by running a smaller size wire..

We all know SOP has always been #12 for kitchen appliances till the "energy saving" models came out..

How do you know it won't swing back the other way.. :blink::blink:


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

B4T said:


> Read the last line of that same post and tell me what you would tell the HO..
> 
> Even you and BBQ can't be 100% positive one of the appliances won't need a 20a circuit instead of a 15a...
> 
> ...



I don't care what happens 3 years from now. I don't wire for "what if" , I wire for "what is". 

In over a thousand kitchens I have been burned ONCE and that wasn't my fault. The HO added an appliance, don't remember what it was. Had I run a 20 amp circuit I could have shared that circuit. Instead I ran a new circuit for the new appliance which was billed as an extra. Hmmm I guess I didn't actually get burned. :laughing:


BTW, since this comes up regularly on forums I always check appliance specs whenever I see any. I have yet to find any that spec a 20 amp circuit. In fact I have shown over and over where a 15 amp dedicated circuit is spec'd. 

None of this matters anyway. You do your thing and I'll do mine, but don't make it sound like I am cutting corners and being a hack.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

RGH said:


> Ok take it astep farther ...are you going to pull it as a 14/3 or a 12/3 with the disposal and dishwasher cir., (if it's not spec'd)? I see it like this, the older guys (like me) are use to power hungry appliances. The new stuff draws less but people have more sxxt plugged in than ever!! What do I/you precieve as right (80 % rule)


Why are you applying what people have plugged in to what we are talking about?? It has zero to do with it.





RGH said:


> So if they are requiring a bare-min bid do just that.... and offer the option to them of plusing it up.bid (a)min-code bid (B) upgrades. that justifies added cost and turns the table. Every other trade does it! Witch furnance do ya want 80/90/95/lol



How is "offering" the customer the opportunity to pay extra for something that isn't needed an "upgrade"? "This dishwasher is only required to be fed from an individual 15 amp branch circuit but I'd like to offer you the chance to pay more for a 20 amp circuit!! Why?? It's better"


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

electricmanscott said:


> None of this matters anyway. You do your thing and I'll do mine, but don't make it sound like I am cutting corners and being a hack.


Yeah, lets let B4T take care of the "hack" part. :thumbup:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

electricmanscott said:


> None of this matters anyway. You do your thing and I'll do mine, but don't make it sound like I am cutting corners and being a hack.


But that is exactly what it will look like when it blows up in your face..

For a lousy extra $30.00 you CYA.. and always come out on top..

I wish you luck.. my post is more for the guys sitting on the fence not sure what size wire to run..

We are not talking about a lot of money here.. but the end result will be very costly when it goes wrong.. 

I will never have that problem.. :thumbup:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

B4T said:


> I will never have that problem.. :thumbup:


That's right, you're perfect and never make mistakes. :lol:


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

electricmanscott said:


> Why are you applying what people have plugged in to what we are talking about?? It has zero to do with it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 I was just offering A way to market/sell the upgrade. It is a opportunity to increase revenue. Some people hear code or code min and get a little confused. I am not implying to be dishonst. It isn't better but it offers more potenial if things change. I worked for a builder who was peddling panel upgrades 150 to 200 for a grand more than what I was charging. Did people need them? IDK I was working spec. When I work with the home owner I always explain what I can or will do. "15 is what it needs" or I can do this .......If the dw is split with g/d I go 20 . ect And what I infered to plugged into was small/app circuits.


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## ralpha494 (Oct 29, 2008)

I didn't notice anybody reference 210.23(A)(1) and (A)(2) if they are cord-connected.

*210.23 Permissible Loads*
*(A) 15- and 20- Ampere Branch Circuits.*

*(1)* *Cord-and-Plug-Connected* *Equipment Not Fastened in Place. *The rating of any one cord-and-plug-connected utilization equipment not fastened in place shall not exceed 80% of the branch circuit ampere rating.

*(2) Cord-and-Plug-Connected Equipment Fastened in Place. *The total rating of utilization equipment fastened in place, other than luminaires, shall not exceed 50% of the branch circuit ampere rating where lighting units, cord-and-plug-connected utilization equipment not fastened in place, or both, are also supplied.

Dishwashers,disposals and compactors are usually fastened in place, so that means a 7 1/2 amp max for each one on a 15 amp circuit. 

Just throwin' it out there.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

ralpha494 said:


> I didn't notice anybody reference 210.23(A)(1) and (A)(2) if they are cord-connected.
> 
> *210.23 Permissible Loads*
> *(A) 15- and 20- Ampere Branch Circuits.*
> ...


B2 Applies only if there is lighting and/or not fastened in place equipment sharing the circuit with the fastened in place equipment. We've been talking about dedicated 15 vs 20 amp circuits for each piece of equipment.


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## davis9 (Mar 21, 2009)

I like to give them what they want. They want Cadillac they get it, they want minimum they get it. Dining room on half the SABC then Refrigerator and stove ignitor on the other SABC. Microwaves get a 14-2, Dish and Pig on a 14/3 usually in the quick hitters.

No reason to give them anything if they don't want to pay for it, except to make yourself feel better.

Tom


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## Aldo Moretti (Aug 29, 2011)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> I get your point!! But, i am only required to do the min. There are reasons why we only have to provide the min. So, why should I exceed that. There's big difference btw bidding a job at bare min rather then exceeding it based on personal preferences.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


I don't question the reasons for requiring a bare minimum, but it is not illegal to exceed that bare minimum for many reasons. There is nothing wrong at all with using past experiences to plan for better future experiences.
The way that I look at it is, the only reason to adhere to the bare minimum code requirements is to under cut other contractors and win the bid or T&M job, and then nickle and dime them to death with change orders and upgrades. Get your foot in the door with a low ball bid, and then ending up making bank on "extras".
A friend of mine responded to a service call at a new restaurant, the receptacle was not working, never did. He took the plate off, unscrewed the receptacle and found the wires coming out of the conduit were only 12 inches long and not connected to anything. He had to pull an new circuit.
When the building owner call the original Chinese contractor who did the job and asked him why this happened, the man said "You ask for prug, not powah, POWAH EXTRA !


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Well call me hack or whatever you'd like, 14/2 for everything that can be unless prescribed by code to be 12 wire. I ran 10' of electric baseboard on 14/2 the other day, dedicated AC outlets, micro's, DWs ,Fridges, freezers. The only time I'll run 12/2 is when panel space is limited but at the same throw, I'll combine appliances on the same 20 amp circuit. I'm in this business for the money not the glory.


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

Shockdoc said:


> Well call me hack or whatever you'd like, 14/2 for everything that can be unless prescribed by code to be 12 wire. I ran 10' of electric baseboard on 14/2 the other day, dedicated AC outlets, micro's, DWs ,Fridges, freezers. The only time I'll run 12/2 is when panel space is limited but at the same throw, I'll combine appliances on the same 20 amp circuit. I'm in this business for the money not the glory.


 Who made that baseboard unit? Last 10' I put in was 2500w/240v ! I yanked a 14/3 for it (10 amp) unit. Sell them /replace them often upstate NY


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

RGH said:


> Who made that baseboard unit? Last 10' I put in was 2500w/240v ! I yanked a 14/3 for it (10 amp) unit. Sell them /replace them often upstate NY


two four foot units and one two foot...hydronic. It's still in rough in stage.


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

Aldo Moretti said:


> I don't question the reasons for requiring a bare minimum, but it is not illegal to exceed that bare minimum for many reasons. There is nothing wrong at all with using past experiences to plan for better future experiences.
> The way that I look at it is, the only reason to adhere to the bare minimum code requirements is to under cut other contractors and win the bid or T&M job, and then nickle and dime them to death with change orders and upgrades. Get your foot in the door with a low ball bid, and then ending up making bank on "extras".
> A friend of mine responded to a service call at a new restaurant, the receptacle was not working, never did. He took the plate off, unscrewed the receptacle and found the wires coming out of the conduit were only 12 inches long and not connected to anything. He had to pull an new circuit.
> When the building owner call the original Chinese contractor who did the job and asked him why this happened, the man said "You ask for prug, not powah, POWAH EXTRA !


Most residential contractors I know only do bare min. It's not required to do anything more. As a professional electrician you should know that certain stationary appliances will not need more then a 15 amp circuit. You're not doing an injustice to the customer by installing it. What the heck do they know anyway.

Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

Shockdoc said:


> Well call me hack or whatever you'd like, 14/2 for everything that can be unless prescribed by code to be 12 wire. I ran 10' of electric baseboard on 14/2 the other day, dedicated AC outlets, micro's, DWs ,Fridges, freezers. The only time I'll run 12/2 is when panel space is limited but at the same throw, I'll combine appliances on the same 20 amp circuit. I'm in this business for the money not the glory.


Well said!

Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

RGH said:


> Who made that baseboard unit? Last 10' I put in was 2500w/240v ! I yanked a 14/3 for it (10 amp) unit. Sell them /replace them often upstate NY


Farenheat, courtesy of home Depot.


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

.Nice, thanks for the info. I have to bid a basement remodel and he is requesting b/b heat as a supplement to furnance. S/house a little pricey latey.


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## joemar4 (Oct 13, 2011)

Aldo Moretti said:


> I don't really know for sure, but I was taught that all refrigerators require a dedicated 20 amp circuit, and sub-zeros are no exception.
> I say, if one is going through the effort to run a circuit, why not run a 20 ?
> It doesn't add any extra time and only a few cents more for the cost of wire for each circuit.
> Most modest older single family detached houses had 100 or 125 amp main load centers that are usually full, even though the houses are woefully under wired.
> ...



:blink:....Uh....what?


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## mrmike (Dec 10, 2010)

electricmanscott said:


> What exactly is wrong about what's being said in this thread other than wasting #12 where it is totally unnecessary? :blink:


What is wrong is your opinion, as others here. The cost difference isn't that much and shouldn't be considered here..It is not wasting #12. It should be an "automatic" to have the #12awg in place, if you need to upgrade to a 20amp breaker in the future but you cannot with #14. Makes perfect sense. #12 awg for receptacles #14 awg for lighting...............


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

mrmike said:


> What is wrong is your opinion, as others here. The cost difference isn't that much and shouldn't be considered here..It is not wasting #12. It should be an "automatic" to have the #12awg in place, if you need to upgrade to a 20amp breaker in the future but you cannot with #14. Makes perfect sense. #12 awg for receptacles #14 awg for lighting...............


Okeedokee. :laughing:


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

mrmike said:


> What is wrong is your opinion, as others here. The cost difference isn't that much and shouldn't be considered here..It is not wasting #12. It should be an "automatic" to have the #12awg in place, if you need to upgrade to a 20amp breaker in the future but you cannot with #14. Makes perfect sense. #12 awg for receptacles #14 awg for lighting...............


I agree but, keep in mind when your repeating this 30x the cost savings is worth using 14AWG

Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

mrmike said:


> What is wrong is your opinion, as others here. The cost difference isn't that much and shouldn't be considered here..It is not wasting #12. It should be an "automatic" to have the #12awg in place, *if* you need to upgrade to a 20amp breaker in the future but you cannot with #14. Makes perfect sense. #12 awg for receptacles #14 awg for lighting...............


Ahhh, there is the problem. I don't care about "if". I care about right now.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

mrmike said:


> What is wrong is your opinion, as others here. The cost difference isn't that much and shouldn't be considered here..It is not wasting #12. It should be an "automatic" to have the #12awg in place, if you need to upgrade to a 20amp breaker in the future but you cannot with #14. Makes perfect sense. #12 awg for receptacles #14 awg for lighting...............


This post strikingly resembles that avatar pic...


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## mrmike (Dec 10, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> This post strikingly resembles that avatar pic...


This is a really uncalled for remark-I don't think it is appropriate to bring up someone's avatar !! Red Skeleton was one of the best Entertainers/comedian there ever was....... And he put seriousness with comedy......... The post I have here I stand by- You can do whatever you like- but don't try to intimidate others because they disagree with your ways................ On the Cheap is not always the way to go...... I learned to always look down the road........................


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## 19kilosparky984 (Sep 14, 2011)

mcclary's electrical said:


> This post strikingly resembles that avatar pic...


That's funny I was thinking the same thing


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

19Kilo.. your mailbox needs help..


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## 19kilosparky984 (Sep 14, 2011)

B4T said:


> 19Kilo.. your mailbox needs help..


Try it now

I deleted all the love letters from the moderators.........


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

mrmike said:


> This is a really uncalled for remark-I don't think it is appropriate to bring up someone's avatar !! Red Skeleton was one of the best Entertainers/comedian there ever was....... And he put seriousness with comedy......... The post I have here I stand by- You can do whatever you like- but don't try to intimidate others because they disagree with your ways................ On the Cheap is not always the way to go...... I learned to always look down the road........................


How old are you? 

Do you happen to be an employee or employer?


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## 19kilosparky984 (Sep 14, 2011)

electricmanscott said:


> How old are you?
> 
> Do you happen to be an employee or employer?


That's nothing,you should see his posts over at contractor talk.........


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

19kilosparky984 said:


> That's nothing,you should see his posts over at contractor talk.........


Haven't been there for a long time. Looks like some trolling is in order. :thumbup:


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## mrmike (Dec 10, 2010)

19kilosparky984 said:


> That's nothing,you should see his posts over at contractor talk.........


 
Why don't some of you be real men instead of bashing someone you don't even know. This is a another real insult and it shows the character you are.
I am 63 and have an extensive background in the electrical field, Industrial and Residential, for 37 yrs. 
I should'nt have to answer that question but I am a believer in putting it out there with no B.S. like some on here have.
I am not on here to Gab & B.S. to win any points or think I know more than anyone else like you just showed in yourself by your comment about me...................... It is really childish and again shows your Character !!!!!


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

mrmike said:


> Why don't some of you be real men instead of bashing someone you don't even know. This is a another real insult and it shows the character you are.
> I am 63 and have an extensive background in the electrical field, Industrial and Residential, for 37 yrs.
> I should'nt have to answer that question but I am a believer in putting it out there with no B.S. like some on here have.
> I am not on here to Gab & B.S. to win any points or think I know more than anyone else like you just showed in yourself by your comment about me...................... It is really childish and again shows your Character !!!!!


Answer the question, "are you an employee or employer"


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## mrmike (Dec 10, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Answer the question, "are you an employee or employer"


 ANd you just don't get it either , but to answer your question I was an employee and now am an employer............ 
This just shows YOUR train of thought......... Just let it go. Don't be judging others but take a hard look at yourself. 
I buy the wire and will not go cheap if this is what you are thinking......as I said before you do what you like---but I will stick to what I think is right !!


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

mrmike said:


> ANd you just don't get it either , but to answer your question I was an employee and now am an employer............
> This just shows YOUR train of thought......... Just let it go. Don't be judging others but take a hard look at yourself.
> I buy the wire and will not go cheap if this is what you are thinking......as I said before you do what you like---but I will stick to what I think is right !!


You got issues. I asked you a simple question...


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Mike you will never have to start cutting holes in a brand new kitchen because somebody made a mistakes..

The customer looks to us to make sure it doesn't happen.. so you won't ever look stupid.. :thumbsup:

Point of use GFI's is another thing that they don't like in here.. :whistling2:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> Point of use GFI's is another thing that they don't like in here.. :whistling2:


You don't speak for me. :no:

Point of use GFCIs are very common in commercial work, at least where I am.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BBQ said:


> You don't speak for me. :no:
> 
> Point of use GFCIs are very common in commercial work, at least where I am.


Sorry BBQ.. I forgot you agree.. now there are (2) of us who think that idea is not dumb..


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

mrmike said:


> ANd you just don't get it either , but to answer your question I was an employee and now am an employer............
> This just shows YOUR train of thought......... Just let it go.* Don't be judging others but take a hard look at yourself. *
> I buy the wire and will not go cheap if this is what you are thinking......as I said before you do what you like---but I will stick to what I think is right !!


 I agree Mike!! Don't judge others. 



Who wants to be like this guy? Not me! :no:



mrmike said:


> *What is wrong is your opinion, as others here.* The cost difference isn't that much and shouldn't be considered here..It is not wasting #12. It should be an "automatic" to have the #12awg in place, if you need to upgrade to a 20amp breaker in the future but you cannot with #14. Makes perfect sense. #12 awg for receptacles #14 awg for lighting...............





mrmike said:


> *Why don't some of you be real men instead of bashing someone you don't even know. This is a another real insult and it shows the character you are.*
> I am 63 and have an extensive background in the electrical field, Industrial and Residential, for 37 yrs.
> I should'nt have to answer that question but I am a believer in putting it out there with no B.S. like some on here have.
> I am not on here to Gab & B.S. to win any points or think I know more than anyone else like you just showed in yourself by your comment about me...................... * It is really childish and again shows your Character !!!!!*


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Now that I got the zinger out of the way Mike, PLEASE explain to me how a dedicated 15 amp circuit for an appliance that draws maybe 7-12 amps is "wrong" and doing things on the cheap???


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

B4T said:


> Sorry BBQ.. I forgot you agree.. now there are (2) of us who think that idea is not dumb..


It is dumb, I don't just think it, I know it. :laughing: 

Really, who cares, you just wanted to grab the spotlight because you need to be the center of controversy in every thread. Mission accomplished. :thumbdown:

Oh and that's not a personal attack it's JMO. :thumbsup:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

electricmanscott said:


> Now that I got the zinger out of the way Mike, PLEASE explain to me how a dedicated 15 amp circuit for an appliance that draws maybe 7-12 amps is "wrong" and doing things on the cheap???


He told us, 



> It should be an "automatic" to have the #12awg in place, *if* you need to upgrade to a 20amp breaker in the future but you cannot with #14. Makes perfect sense.


He pulled out the 'if' card and that trumps any argument. :laughing:


I am confused though, what if they install a window AC that needs 10 AWG??


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

electricmanscott said:


> Now that I got the zinger out of the way Mike, PLEASE explain to me how a dedicated 15 amp circuit for an appliance that draws maybe 7-12 amps is "wrong" and doing things on the cheap???


IMO.. you are better off running #12 since you are getting paid for it.. why is that so wrong.. :blink::blink:

I know you like to wire the kitchen for TODAY and screw the idea of looking a few years down the line..

That #12 will never go to waste and just might come in handy some day.. :thumbsup:


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

B4T said:


> IMO.. you are better off running #12 since you are getting paid for it.. why is that so wrong.. :blink::blink:
> 
> I know you like to wire the kitchen for TODAY and screw the idea of looking a few years down the line..
> 
> That #12 will never go to waste and just might come in handy some day.. :thumbsup:


But time travel aside, why is it WRONG to wire for what's required TODAY, not in 5 years. 


Can't you just admit for ONCE that your way isn't the only way?


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

electricmanscott said:


> But time travel aside, why is it WRONG to wire for what's required TODAY, not in 5 years.
> 
> 
> Can't you just admit for ONCE that your way isn't the only way?


Scott it is not a matter of your way or my way being right.. we both have a different style of selling work..

Posting an opinion here just gives other members something to think about..

You and I are just being.. OMG :laughing::thumbup::laughing:


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

B4T said:


> Scott it is not a matter of your way or my way being right.. we both have a different style of selling work..
> 
> Posting an opinion here just gives other members something to think about..
> 
> You and I are just being.. OMG :laughing::thumbup::laughing:


:sleep1: Bringing politics into this conversation.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Chris1971 said:


> :sleep1: Bringing politics into this conversation.



The sad part is he actually believes Fox New is fair and balanced. They are just as biased as any news source. I don't have a problem with them being biased, by the way. Just don't sell me this nonsense that they aren't. :no:


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