# New LED drop in's



## Satch (Mar 3, 2011)

I haven't tried the drop ins but we were just at our supply house yesterday and he showed me a page from Philips catalogue that shows a couple of different retro-fit kits for 2 and 4 foot fluorescent lamps. I haven't seen the product in person or a photo brochure but we are keeping up on the line. We also have some renovation work coming up and there are some surface mount four foot fixtures being spec'd that have LED emitters in them. I will try to find some links and post them up. The drop in LED trouffers are very interesting because it would save a lot of relamp work.


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## Voltech (Nov 30, 2009)

I installed about 100 of them. Changing them out, we had about 10 that had problems. some of the LED strips didnt work, some just needed a wiggle and push the wires into the power pack better. some had a few LEDs out in the strip, those had to be replaced. other than that it was easy and a great investment for the customer


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

Satch said:


> The drop in LED trouffers are very interesting because it would save a lot of relamp work.


Egg Zachary! 



Voltech said:


> I installed about 100 of them. Changing them out, we had about 10 that had problems. some of the LED strips didnt work, some just needed a wiggle and push the wires into the power pack better. some had a few LEDs out in the strip, those had to be replaced. other than that it was easy and a great investment for the customer


Because, you don't relamp them. You re-luminaire them.


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## Glantz496 (Apr 28, 2014)

They also make an LED retrofit for existing fluorescent troffers as well. IIRC it was cree that I had seen where they took two strips and were held in place with magnets so you could easily screw them in place. Came with everything needed to change over as well.

My only problem was that for just a little bit more you could get a brand new LED drop in entirely!


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

Glantz496 said:


> They also make an LED retrofit for existing fluorescent troffers as well. IIRC it was cree that I had seen where they took two strips and were held in place with magnets so you could easily screw them in place. Came with everything needed to change over as well.
> 
> My only problem was that for just a little bit more you could get a brand new LED drop in entirely!


Philips make T8 drop-ins intended to be used with fluorescent instant start electronic ballast. $25 a piece and 1400 lumens or so. It's a tube shaped lamp that only emits on the lower half, so you can only use it some fixtures.

It won't work well for semi-indirect fixtures that requires light from the top half of the bulb for proper pattern. If you use it in a fixture that do not have a diffuser, it will probably cast a shadow much worse than T8.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

We installed about 1/2 dz on a reno last spring.

they went in well, light up good, but you're not going to the local hardware store to replace an element


~CS~


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## one hertz (Mar 6, 2014)

Electric_Light said:


> Egg Zachary!
> 
> 
> 
> Because, you don't relamp them. You re-luminaire them.


Easy there! Don't wreck the future for maintenance racketeers:
An electrician with a soldering iron.


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

*Conclusion: retrofitting LED wrap-around with premium T8 fluorescent recommended.*



Wirenuting said:


> As anyone tried the new Lithonia LED 2x4 drop in's (2GTL4-LP840) or the 4' wrap a rounds (LBL4-LP840)?
> We just received a couple of pallets of them for a job. Someone broke the first one they tried to install. *Do they look and work well?*


Were they like half the price of premium T8 equivalent? 

The wrap around should look almost indistinguishable from the fluorescent version from outside while it is turned off I'm comparing datasheets. I've compared the specs on both.* The performance of LED version is unacceptable, because sustained lumens per watt appears to be about 30% lower than the T8 25W 4' fluorescent system of comparable output. *

*LED system is 4,000 lumen new. Conditional to properly keeping the fixtures clean, the LED will decay to 2,800 lm output. Fluorescent will decay to 3,500 lm. *

They can both suffer driver failure, so that's a neutral point. When life is this long, they'll require a few cleaning service to keep them efficient so the layer of dust won't be reducing light transmission. 

You should be able to negotiate the said cleaning service contract for the cost saved from not going with LED version and still have it way better, because the lamps are not going to get old and deteriorate like LEDs. :laughing::laughing::laughing: 

The LED version requires greater number of fixtures to sustain the same output over the lifetime, because they deteriorate more and still require cleaning to remove dust. 

Two different models from the same brand. Same appearance. The only difference is one uses permanent decoration lamps. 

Brand new out of the box LBL4-LP840 has a rated efficacy of 80 LPW which falls a bit shy of END OF LIFE efficacy of 81 LPW that can be expected from extra long life low power T8, my answer is that the performance is unacceptable. No warranty on color shift. 

4000 lm output. 50W input. 80 LPW
They rate it to 50,000 hours until 30 freaking percent of output is lost. :001_huh:
The most significant amounts of decay occurs during the first 6,000 hours. 

*4,000 * 70% LLDF = 2,800 lm (mean) / 50W = 56 LPW. Light Emissive Decoration system. *

http://www.acuitybrandslighting.com/library/ll/documents/specsheets/led wraparound.pdf

The standard fluorescent counterpart. Rated at 89.1% fixture efficiency.

http://www.acuitybrandslighting.com/library/ll/documents/specsheets/curved basket wraps.pdf

Using the General Electric UltraMax system: 
GE232MAX-N/Ultra + 
EcoLux 25W (50,000 hrs @ 3 hrs/cycle, or 70,000 @ 12hrs/cycle to 50% failure)
These lamps are rated 2,400 lm. The ballast is rated at 87% output and drives two of these lamps with 43W input power. 

http://www.gelighting.com/LightingW..._4_Ecolux_25W_Lamp_SellSheet_tcm201-21073.pdf

2,400 x 2 lamps x 0.87 BF x 0.891 eff = 3,720 lm over 43W 86.5 lm/W 
*
3,720 lamp output * 0.94 lamp decay factor = 3,500 lm /43 W = 81.3 lm/W 
*
Using 12hr/cycle, curve shown in sell sheet says you should get about 50,000 hours within 20% lamp failure, so I think that's a fair comparison with LEDs.


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## Lighting Retro (Aug 1, 2009)

Not all lumens are creating equal, but I'm sure you know that if you've seen the product side by side.


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

Lighting Retro said:


> Not all lumens are creating equal, but I'm sure you know that if you've seen the product side by side.


What exactly are you trying to say? 

the calculations above includes deduction for fixture optical and ballast/driver losses. This is also for T8, which is for general area lighting, comparing 4000-4100K output. The CRIs are both in 80s, but it's already a known fact that CRI is limited in usefulness. 


Using S/P ratio to raise specs is not exclusive to particular light source. Same can be applied to fluorescent in the same way it is for LEDs.


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## Lighting Retro (Aug 1, 2009)

I think we've been down this road before, and I found the discussion unfruitful. I'll pass because I don't have the time.


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

Lighting Retro said:


> I think we've been down this road before, and I found the discussion unfruitful. I'll pass because I don't have the time.


If you say "Not all lumens are creating equal" expect to have more articulated reasoning than "because I said so". I have no idea what you're trying to convey.


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## Texas_LED_Guru (Mar 1, 2013)

Electric_Light said:


> *Philips make T8 drop-ins intended to be used with fluorescent instant start electronic ballast.* $25 a piece and 1400 lumens or so. It's a tube shaped lamp that only emits on the lower half, so you can only use it some fixtures.
> 
> It won't work well for semi-indirect fixtures that requires light from the top half of the bulb for proper pattern. If you use it in a fixture that do not have a diffuser, it will probably cast a shadow much worse than T8.


Those suck.

The weak point in any florescent is the ballast.

Ballast bypass is always better.


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

Texas_LED_Guru said:


> Those suck.
> 
> The weak point in any florescent is the ballast.
> 
> Ballast bypass is always better.


The ballast or power supply will be a point of failure no matter how you mess with it. If you bypass the ballast, you're simply using a lamp module with the ballast built into the lamp just like 120v CFLs.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Texas_LED_Guru said:


> Those suck.
> 
> The weak point in any florescent is the ballast.
> 
> Ballast bypass is always better.


The LED driver is the weak point in that system too.


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## Texas_LED_Guru (Mar 1, 2013)

It's not a driver it's an AC to DC rectifier converting 120 AC to 120 DC. Nothing fancy.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Texas_LED_Guru said:


> It's not a driver it's an AC to DC rectifier converting 120 AC to 120 DC. Nothing fancy.


It's still electronic and still prone to failure. Just give it time.


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## Texas_LED_Guru (Mar 1, 2013)

MTW said:


> Texas_LED_Guru said:
> 
> 
> > It's not a driver it's an AC to DC rectifier converting 120 AC to 120 DC. Nothing fancy.
> ...


I ALWAYS advise the use of surge protection to my customers. It's cheap insurance & every knowledgeable electrician should recommend it. I'm talking panel surge devices not just those wall strips. It's essential for LED'S & just as essential for you guys stuck back in the dark ages (no pun intended)

Most electronic ballasts don't even offer basic built in surge protection. I've never seen it anyways. I see it on power supplies but not ballasts.


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## one hertz (Mar 6, 2014)

Recti failure is only part of the problems I'm seeing with leds. There's also the general manufacturing of the product. 
A lot of companies have popped up in the wake of government "green" subsidizing and those are bad enough products. Add to that proven companies that seem to have rushed to the market without proper qc in place.

Just put in 60some pendant strips on a protected system. Half a dozen had loose stab terminations, several others bad drivers, and a few had partial arrays not functioning. Not to mention the fact that emergency drivers appeared to be an afterthought with no provision or instructions, and had to be field engineered for exterior top mounting due to their compact design. This was large and famous manufacturer (which will remain nameless). This is not the first time I've had a 15%+ ratio of duds.
I like where they're going with leds but I don't think manufacturing is there yet.


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

Texas_LED_Guru said:


> It's not a driver it's an AC to DC rectifier converting 120 AC to 120 DC. Nothing fancy.


It's possible to operate LEDs with a simple rectifier and it's the common method in absolutely mediocre designs that have a flicker percentage of 100 and ridiculously poor regulation. 

LEDs, HIDs and fluorescent lamps are quite similar electrically. They don't behave like a resistor and must be ballasted. Indicator LEDs are never hooked up directly to power like incandescent indicators. Many flashlights and indicators use a simple resistor in-line with each LED and its not uncommon for 25-50% of power to be lost in the resistor.

Series resistance is terribly inefficient, so it's not used for higher power. 




Texas_LED_Guru said:


> I ALWAYS advise the use of surge protection to my customers. It's cheap insurance & every knowledgeable electrician should recommend it. I'm talking panel surge devices not just those wall strips. It's essential for LED'S & just as essential for you guys stuck back in the dark ages (no pun intended)
> 
> *Most electronic ballasts don't even offer basic built in surge protection.* I've never seen it anyways. * I see it on power supplies but not ballasts.*


:blink: You do understand that the only difference is semantics, right? 

A ballast is a power supply. It's a jargon that refers to current limiting high frequency AC power supply for fluorescent lamps. 

USB charger, LED power supply, electronic transformer and electronic ballast are very similar. 

Earlier fluorescent electronic ballasts were dropping like flies... and the poorer quality ones still do as do crappy power adapters, ballasts, LEDs and such from fleabay. There are standards in ANSI that guide surge resistance of ballasts. 



one hertz said:


> Recti failure is only part of the problems I'm seeing with leds. There's also the general manufacturing of the product.
> A lot of companies have popped up in the wake of government "green" subsidizing and those are bad enough products. Add to that proven companies that seem to have rushed to the market without proper qc in place.
> 
> 
> ...


At least that means they're gonna pay for that mistake so the famous doesn't turn into infamous. For now, we should focus on rewriting the purchasing specifications so you have an airtight, double sealed contract that contains the loss within the vendor and manufacturers side of court, customer minded warranty terms, high percentage, long retainage terms; insured warranty requirement,etc. 

Basically, there's nothing to worry about as long as there's no spillage, but the contract is there to ensure that vendor and manufacturer are held wholly responsible for the replacement of spilled or spoiled milk due to inadequate product design (parts coverage) as well as the cost of spill clean up (the labor). So, what do the retainage and liability assumption do? It's like a security deposit. It is basically an agreed upon money held, so if the vendor fails to coordinate a remedy at minimal administrative burden to the customer, the repair cost gets taken out of the deposit, then whatever is not covered by retainage becomes legally collectable from the vendor. 

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


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## Alty (Nov 29, 2020)

Wirenuting said:


> As anyone tried the new Lithonia LED 2x4 drop in's (2GTL4-LP840) or the 4' wrap a rounds (LBL4-LP840)?
> We just received a couple of pallets of them for a job. Someone broke the first one they tried to install. Do they look and work well?


We have installed about 80 or so and we find that the drivers go out them within a year


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## Alty (Nov 29, 2020)

Electric_Light said:


> *Conclusion: retrofitting LED wrap-around with premium T8 fluorescent recommended.*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Data maybe but after 20 years of comparison the florescent dims quicker hands down they yellow and dim within a year I have seen side by side comparisons for years now.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

Alty said:


> We have installed about 80 or so and we find that the drivers go out them within a year


Since I first posted this in 2014, most of these lights are still working with no problems.


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## 5kv flash (Jul 15, 2016)

MTW said:


> The LED driver is the weak point in that system too.


Kinda like a wife who doesn't work lol......

Sent from my SM-A505U1 using Tapatalk


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