# Resi Troubleshooting Techniques



## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

Instead of started at the beginning of the circuit, I try to locate a middle point to begin. That way you can eliminate 1/2 the circuit as the problem Then break the 1/2 circuit with the short in 1half, and keep breaking the circuit in this manner. Much quicker.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

JohnJ0906 said:


> Instead of started at the beginning of the circuit, I try to locate a middle point to begin. That way you can eliminate 1/2 the circuit as the problem Then break the 1/2 circuit with the short in 1half, and keep breaking the circuit in this manner. Much quicker.


 
I also do this. Especially with arc fault circuits !


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## Mike Guile (Jan 14, 2010)

*ts*

that makes perfect sense. quickest way to find and unknown pt. is keep dividing in half. Now, here is next question. In this case, how would I know where half was? This circuit had minimum of 40 outlets and switches on it on 2 flrs. It turned out it was all off large living room (1st flr), some outside lights, all of basement (1,400 sq ft). It turns out the living rm fed from a hidden receptacle in corner down to a remote corner of basement and came back towards panel with drops for all the items in basement all above acoustical ceiling.

??


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Mike Guile said:


> Now, here is next question. In this case, how would I know where half was?


That can sometimes be a challenge in a very old home or a home that's had the wiring monkeyed with by DIY's over the years. In normal circumstances, I tell people to "wire the house in your head". The circuit was probably run roughly the way you would wire it if you had wired the home. Determine everything without power, "wire it in your head", then go to the logical midpoint as if you had wired it.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

Seems to me that you should have started by turning all the switches off. If you had done this, it would have immediately cleared the fault, and you would know where to start by turning switches on until the problem came back.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

InPhase277 said:


> Seems to me that you should have started by turning all the switches off. If you had done this, it would have immediately cleared the fault, and you would know where to start by turning switches on until the problem came back.


Sounds like he had a damned mess on his hands in a pretty messed up home. He probably thought he did have all the switches off.


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

InPhase277 said:


> Seems to me that you should have started by turning all the switches off. If you had done this, it would have immediately cleared the fault, and you would know where to start by turning switches on until the problem came back.


This is what I do first. I turn all switches off..if it's still a dead short , I start breaking the circuit in half. JUst like Marc said, wire it in your head and go to that point. It works pretty good.


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## Mike Guile (Jan 14, 2010)

*Switches*

What killed me on this was they were *all decor* switches and the one that was culprit was upside down. In hindsight, I should of asked him or walked out to pool area and looked around. When I saw the box all broke off pvc, that would of been a red flag and maybe got me out of there in less time. Also, when I started taking grids out of acoustical, it practical fell down a few times. I had to re-attatched guide wires twice and flexable vents up there would come off solid duct if you barely moved anything. So there was other compounding problems which slowed me down. 

The lesson: spend a few more minutes walking around "the whole house" looking for things.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

With dead shorts, I put a 100w lamp in series at the breaker.

Lift the black wire off the breaker, and put it to the white lead of a lamp pigtail. Take the black of the pigtail and put on the breaker.

As long as there's a short, the lamp will burn at full brightness. Once the fault is cleared, it will burn dimmer.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

480sparky said:


> With dead shorts, I put a 100w lamp in series at the breaker.
> 
> Lift the black wire off the breaker, and put it to the white lead of a lamp pigtail. Take the black of the pigtail and put on the breaker.
> 
> As long as there's a short, the lamp will burn at full brightness. Once the fault is cleared, it will burn dimmer.


I could be fired for doing that.


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## Mike Guile (Jan 14, 2010)

*note*

Oh. the switched leg was ran in nm underground and only in pvc at ends. Don't even know how deep it was or anything. He said he ran it 3 yrs ago but forgot to mention it for rope lights at pool switched from house.


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

480sparky said:


> With dead shorts, I put a 100w lamp in series at the breaker.
> 
> Lift the black wire off the breaker, and put it to the white lead of a lamp pigtail. Take the black of the pigtail and put on the breaker.
> 
> As long as there's a short, the lamp will burn at full brightness. Once the fault is cleared, it will burn dimmer.


I've seen you mention this before. Why wouldn't the breaker trip if you did this?


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## Mike Guile (Jan 14, 2010)

*?*

Ditto. I didn't want to say anything for fear of looking stupid. 




Damn Decor switches! Flat rate pricing guru's. I'd multiply by 1.5 for flat rate troubleshooting with Decor switches. That's what I'm going to do


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

NolaTigaBait said:


> I've seen you mention this before. Why wouldn't the breaker trip if you did this?


 
Because the lamp creates a load.


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

So, the purpose of this is to not destroy the breaker when you flip it on and off?


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

NolaTigaBait said:


> So, the purpose of this is to not destroy the breaker when you flip it on and off?


You are putting a resistance in series with the circuit, keeping the current below the trip setting.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

NolaTigaBait said:


> So, the purpose of this is to not destroy the breaker when you flip it on and off?


As well as give you a visual indication as to whether the fault has been cleared. Full brightness = you still got a problem. Dim = fault cleared.


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

JohnJ0906 said:


> You are putting a resistance in series with the circuit, keeping the current below the trip setting.


Yeah, that whole ohm's law thingy:laughing:....Thanks for explaining.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

I mostly use that light bulb trick when troubleshooting a short and the panel is a fusebox. Just screw a light bulb into the fuseholder. Saves fuses.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Mike Guile said:


> What killed me on this was they were *all decor* switches and the one that was culprit was upside down. In hindsight, I should of asked him or walked out to pool area and looked around.


I disagree - WHO would think basement lights (finished basement?) livingroom receptacles, 3 switches in the livingroom and a POOL OUTLET would be on the same circuit?


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

MDShunk said:


> I mostly use that light bulb trick when troubleshooting a short and the panel is a fusebox. Just screw a light bulb into the fuseholder. Saves fuses.


What do you do for a breaker? I was "taught" to start breaking things apart and then reset the breaker. I might reset the breaker 3 or 4 times. THe bulb is a much better idea.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> I disagree - WHO would think basement lights (finished basement?) livingroom receptacles, 3 switches in the livingroom and a POOL OUTLET would be on the same circuit?


 
Anyone who walks into a house built prior to 1995. That's who.


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## Mike Guile (Jan 14, 2010)

*Well...*

The house was only 5 yrs old. Normally, I wouldn't put the living room on 14 gauge to begin with, but, they did and apparently added two basement pullchains and the swithes for basement porch lights on it as well. Then everything was tapped off one of the pull chain boxes to feed rest of basement and all the outside additions over the years.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Mike Guile said:


> ......... Normally, I wouldn't put the living room on 14 gauge to begin with,............


So you're not normal. :laughing:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> I mostly use that light bulb trick when troubleshooting a short and the panel is a fusebox. Just screw a light bulb into the fuseholder. Saves fuses.


Only if it doesn't have one of those new, fancy tamper-proof adapters in it.


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

480sparky said:


> Only if it doesn't have one of those new, fancy tamper-proof adapters in it.


Damn fusestats, I can't put a 30 on a 15. I love it when you open a fuse box full of green fuses.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

NolaTigaBait said:


> Damn fusestats, I can't put a 30 on a 15. I love it when you open a fuse box full of green fuses.


 
Those green things aren't fuses.... they're pennies that have oxidized. :laughing:


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

480sparky said:


> Those green things aren't fuses.... they're pennies that have oxidized. :laughing:


I've seen that trick a few times. People aren't that smart.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

NolaTigaBait said:


> I've seen that trick a few times. People aren't that smart.


 
Sure they are! They just need to make sure to use a penny of the proper ampacity. 

You did know that every penny is marked with it's ampacity, don't you?


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

480sparky said:


> Sure they are! They just need to make sure to use a penny of the proper ampacity.
> 
> You did know that every penny is marked with it's ampacity, don't you?


I'm not in the mood for thinking:laughing:.so what are you talking about?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

NolaTigaBait said:


> I'm not in the mood for thinking:laughing:.so what are you talking about?


You know how people used to ( and still do! ) put pennies in fuse boxes? Well, just make sure you use a penny with the correct ampacity... every penny has it's ampacity right on it.


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

Mike Guile said:


> The house was only 5 yrs old. Normally, I wouldn't put the living room on 14 gauge to begin with, but, they did and apparently added two basement pullchains and the swithes for basement porch lights on it as well. Then everything was tapped off one of the pull chain boxes to feed rest of basement and all the outside additions over the years.


If your going to troubleshoot residential your going to have to give up that "everything must be 12 gauge" attitude


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## ralpha494 (Oct 29, 2008)

I thought you just had to install the penny with "In God We Trust" facing out.


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## Shado (Jan 1, 2009)

480sparky said:


> You know how people used to ( and still do! ) put pennies in fuse boxes? Well, just make sure you use a penny with the correct ampacity... *every penny has it's ampacity right on it*.


Ok ...I will bite...:blink:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Shado said:


> Ok ...I will bite...:blink:


Seriously. It's there.

Right above Lincoln's head.

Look for yourself.


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

Hint : The answer was already posted


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## Shado (Jan 1, 2009)

Damn...I knew that part....I always told my help that someone was looking out for the HO when ever we ran across stuff like that.


I was seriously thinking there was some numeral joke stamped on it somewhere...


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

How much money did you make on that one?


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

NolaTigaBait said:


> Damn fusestats, I can't put a 30 on a 15. I love it when you open a fuse box full of green fuses.


I keep a stock of the Type S adapters in my trailer. I do a bunch of fuse panel upgrades, but often, depending on the customer's budget, I end up installing a service but re-feeding the old fuse panel. I always add a 4-wire feeder and isolate the neutrals, and install the adapters. I have had more than one call back where they have blown a fuse and found they can't just jam a 30 in there.

The response is the same as it was when I added the service: "You need to reduce the load or split the circuit up". I usually end up charging for additional circuits then.


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## Mike Guile (Jan 14, 2010)

*$*



RIVETER said:


> How much money did you make on that one?


$175

I charge $100 for emergency service call then $40 hr

I'm in a rural working class area. That might be low for others but it's actually high around here. 

On a side note: If there are any Flat Rate Pricing Guru's on here. What would you have charged for that one??? The concept of Flat Rate makes total sense. The better you get ...the quicker you get. So on TnM you actually lose money the better you get on Troubleshooting calls. I'm definately asking what kind of Switches they have to the list of questions next time.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Mike Guile said:


> This circuit had minimum of 40 outlets and switches on it on 2 flrs.



????? 40 outlets and switches on 1 circuit? In a 5yr old house? Is there a code in the NEC that limits the amount of outlets allowed on a general purpose circuit? In Canada we can only install 12 outlets max unless the load is known (pot light circuit etc.)


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

eddy current said:


> ????? 40 outlets and switches on 1 circuit? In a 5yr old house? Is there a code in the NEC that limits the amount of outlets allowed on a general purpose circuit? In Canada we can only install 12 outlets max unless the load is known (pot light circuit etc.)


 
No NEC limits in resi work.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

Resi troubleshoot 101 for a tripping breaker:

1) try to reset and get an idea of how hard the short is.

2) determine what is affected, unplug *everything* and turn off all switches. 

3) try to reset

4) look for anything that isn't stock wiring, particularly anything added going outside. Quiz the HO for clues.

5) when I start opening up boxes, I start in the middle unless sonething leads me in another direction.


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## GoodLookingUglyGuy (Feb 3, 2010)

Flat rate 65 response 65 an hr min 130 plus tax customer calls and says they want a 15 amp resi grade switch changed out 117.00 ariadni dimmer 161.00 just to let you know my prices flat rate. I also am way out in the boonies nearest supply house other then coast hardware is 45 miles


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

220/221 said:


> .............
> 
> 1) try to reset and get an idea of how hard the short is.
> 
> ...


 
And you think these are good ideas?


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## Mike Guile (Jan 14, 2010)

*flipping*



480sparky said:


> And you think these are good ideas?



I noticed that's what old timers do alot. They say just keep flipping til you find it or it burns in half. I did the above all ringing out with power off.

P.S. Is there some sort of secret technique for finding if Decor switches are off, on, 3 ways ?? I would have be out much quicker if they were all single pole toggle style. I counted 26 decor switches on this one circuit. 2/3 were installed correct direction and 1/3 not (that was the short)


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Mike Guile said:


> I noticed that's what old timers do alot. They say just keep flipping til you find it or it burns in half. I did the above all ringing out with power off......


Yea, and old-timers used to touch the wires to see if they were 110 or 220. You up to try that one?



Mike Guile said:


> ...... P.S. Is there some sort of secret technique for finding if Decor switches are off, on, 3 ways ?? I would have be out much quicker if they were all single pole toggle style. I counted 26 decor switches on this one circuit. 2/3 were installed correct direction and 1/3 not (that was the short)


1. 3-ways don't have an 'off' position.
2. There's no limit to the number of switches on a circuit.
3. What was up-side down? 3-ways? How do you figure?


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## Mike Guile (Jan 14, 2010)

*stuff*

1. knew that
2. knew that
3. It was a single pole decor installed upside down. The point I was making was it was a bitchh to find short with a bunch of upside down single pole decor switches


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## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

Sometimes the problem can be narrrowed down by asking what was worked on last. And by whom. Not inclusive to electrical work.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> And you think these are good ideas?


WTF else are you going to do? 

What's the worst that *will *happen? 

The house isn't going to catch fire :laughing:



> Yea, and old-timers used to touch the wires to see if they were 110 or 220. You up to try that one?


Come on.....You never touched live wires before? I never did until maybe 8 years ago. 

We were on a typical resi remodel with hot romex hanging everywhere and the discussion turned to testing power with your fingers. After my son stepped up I decided to give it a go. When you just touch the end of the wire on your calloused fingertips, you barely feel it. Press a little harder and the sensation increases.

It's harmless. The contact area is only the diameter of the wire. You are not holding onto the wire, just touching it lightly on the tips of your finger and thumb. 

I haven't done the finger test to trip a GFCI yet. I have however accidentally tripped one on my bare leg via a frayed extension cord.


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

220/221 said:


> WTF else are you going to do?
> 
> What's the worst that *will *happen?
> 
> ...


I love this guy. He's old school.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

220/221 said:


> WTF else are you going to do?
> 
> What's the worst that *will *happen?
> 
> The house isn't going to catch fire :laughing:.


It could. You may very well damage the breaker beyond it's ability to properly turn the circuit off when there is another fault.

THINK about it.... I know breakers are intended to open on short circuits, but will it after you short it out.... how many times? 10? 20? 5? 2? 100?

How about finding the fault, clearing it, and then testing the circuit to make sure it is cleared before you turn the breaker back on? Doesn't that sound like a better idea? Or do you test the airbags in your truck by ramming it into brick walls every week, just to make sure they will work?




220/221 said:


> Come on.....You never touched live wires before? I never did until maybe 8 years ago.
> 
> We were on a typical resi remodel with hot romex hanging everywhere and the discussion turned to testing power with your fingers. After my son stepped up I decided to give it a go. When you just touch the end of the wire on your calloused fingertips, you barely feel it. Press a little harder and the sensation increases.
> 
> ...


You saying intentionally grabbing hold of energized conductors is a practice you condone and encourage? Stay the f*** away from me.


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

Yo


> u saying intentionally grabbing hold of energized conductors is a practice you condone and encourage?


My old boss used to do this all the time.As far as the dead short, I was taught (im sure 220 was as well) to just keep resetting the breaker. And yes, your way of determining if a fault is clear is MUCH better. Can't wait to try it:thumbsup:.


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## crazymurph (Aug 19, 2009)

WOW! Another thread with stupid and unsafe practices. This why a professional electrician has testers and meters. Some of you guys must work for CaveRock electric. Those idiotic methods went out with the Edsel. Welcome to the 21st century Fred and Barney.


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

Using a 20 amp lightbulb?


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## bdeots (Feb 10, 2010)

wow, I wonder if plumbers just keep flushing the toilet to find out if the clog is hard. probly need to ask if they flood insurance first.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> It *could.* You may very well damage the breaker beyond it's ability to properly turn the circuit off when there is another fault.


You are dreaming. I specifically asked, "what the worst that *will* happen" not what "could" happen. Big difference. An engine _could_ fall off an airplane and land on my head, but it's not gonna happen.

Get back with me after your first service call and we will talk 






> THINK about it.... I know breakers are intended to open on short circuits, but will it after you short it out.... how many times? 10? 20? 5? 2? 100?


Uhhhh...5? If it take me 100 tries to find the fault, I'm doing something wrong. If it's an old breaker it will get replaced anyway. Retail cost $10.




> How about finding the fault, clearing it, and then testing the circuit to make sure it is cleared before you turn the breaker back on? Doesn't that sound like a better idea? Or do you test the airbags in your truck by ramming it into brick walls every week, just to make sure they will work?


How do you suggest finding and clearing the fault without energizing or attempting top energize the circuit? You are seriously going to megger it to find a simple short? Maybe you are going to just start taking things apart and visually inspect them? Maybe you are going to install an inline fuse and bring a case of fuses with you? The breaker will do it's job a few times until I find the fault.


And comparing airbags to circuit breakers is a stretch. Don't be stoopid.



> You saying intentionally grabbing hold of energized conductors is a practice you condone and encourage? Stay the f*** away from me.


There are many words in the English language. It is helpful to learn and use all of them. You seem to be lacking basic comprehension skills which are required just to get by in life. 

Only an idiot would intentionnally *grab* an energized conductor. I was talking about *touching* live wires. It's harmless because you are in complete control of the circuit. If you grab a wire, the surface/contact area increase along with muscle contraction can result in death. Every electrician knows (or should know) that.

(edit) Actually there are cases where you must grab an energized conductor but that's not what we are discussing here.




> I wonder if plumbers just keep flushing the toilet to find out if the clog is hard. probly


They wouldn't *keep *flushing it. 

If the water was at normal level in the bowl, *the first thing they would do is flush the toilet*. Then they would try a plunger to see if it was a simple clog in the toilet trap. If they determined the clog was deeper in the system they would use a snake. If it cleared, they would flush it again....several times. They are not going to pull out the camera unless it's necessary.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

220/221 said:


> You are dreaming. I specifically asked, "what the worst that *will* happen" not what "could" happen. Big difference. An engine _could_ fall off an airplane and land on my head, but it's not gonna happen......


I don't know what WILL happen any more than YOU do. 



220/221 said:


> Uhhhh...5? If it take me 100 tries to find the fault, I'm doing something wrong. If it's an old breaker it will get replaced anyway. Retail cost $10.


That's not the question. Define 'old". Is it the age in years? how manyamp-hours it's carried? Has the breaker you have never seen before in your entire life ever been shorted out before? How can YOU tell?

How about the damage to the conductors? Are you going to tell us that shorting out a breaker 5 times is all hunky-dorey with the insulation too? 

You seem to know everything.... so you tell us... how many times can you close a breaker with a dead short and expect the breaker to still function as designed? C'mon.... you know this.... let the rest of us peons in on the great wealth of knowledge you're hoarding!




220/221 said:


> .............Get back with me after your first service call and we will talk .........
> 
> ......How do you suggest finding and clearing the fault without energizing or attempting top energize the circuit? You are seriously going to megger it to find a simple short? Maybe you are going to just start taking things apart and visually inspect them? Maybe you are going to install an inline fuse and bring a case of fuses with you? The breaker will do it's job a few times until I find the fault......


*Are you freaking serious?!?!?* You really don't know how to find a short without burning out fuses and frying breakers? Did you just fall off the turnip truck? Is this a joke? 

Someone pinch me.... I must be dreaming.



220/221 said:


> And comparing airbags to circuit breakers is a stretch. Don't be stoopid.


Stupid is turning a breaker on before knowing the fault is cleared. Simple as that. I thought every professional knew that. Apparently I was wrong.



220/221 said:


> There are many words in the English language. It is helpful to learn and use all of them. You seem to be lacking basic comprehension skills which are required just to get by in life.


I comprehend English enough to know you think touching energized conductors is harmless and slamming breakers repeatedly with a dead short is okee-dokee.



220/221 said:


> Only an idiot would intentionnally *grab* an energized conductor. I was talking about *touching* live wires. It's harmless because you are in complete control of the circuit. If you grab a wire, the surface/contact area increase along with muscle contraction can result in death. Every electrician knows (or should know) that.


Backpedalling now, are we? You obviously don't comprehend basic electrical safety. You must be an idiot then because you did just that.... by your own admission. 

Here, let me remind you:



220/221 said:


> _Come on.....You never touched live wires before? I never did until maybe 8 years ago. _
> 
> _..........._
> 
> ...


*Yea, I touched a hot wire on purpose, but I'm a professional and I know how to do it safely.* 

Is that what you want on your headstone?




220/221 said:


> They wouldn't *keep *flushing it.
> 
> If the water was at normal level in the bowl, *the first thing they would do is flush the toilet*. Then they would try a plunger to see if it was a simple clog in the toilet trap. If they determined the clog was deeper in the system they would use a snake. If it cleared, they would flush it again....several times. They are not going to pull out the camera unless it's necessary.


And overflowing toilets don't have the potential to burn the house down either.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> I don't know what WILL happen any more than YOU do.


There's the difference. I do know what will happen more than you do.



> Has the breaker you have never seen before in your entire life ever been shorted out before? How can YOU tell


 
I'm just that good. I'm a trained professional. I have seen it and done it. :thumbup:



> How about the damage to the conductors? Are you going to tell us that shorting out a breaker 5 times is all hunky-dorey with the insulation too?


Yes. I have an understanding of what it takes to damage insulation. A split second short aint gonna do it.




> You seem to know everything.... so you tell us... how many times can you close a breaker with a dead short and expect the breaker to still function as designed?


 
I certainly don't know everything. I'd put it somewhere between several and many. If you are talking about absolutes, you can't gaurantee that a brand new breaker will function properly. I deal with real life. It makes more sense to me.



> Are you freaking serious?!?!? You really don't know how to find a short without burning out fuses and frying breakers?


 

When someone answers a question with another question it usually means they don't know the answer. I am dead serious. Tell me how you would handle this call (resi short circuit)




> Stupid is turning a breaker on before knowing the fault is cleared. Simple as that.


Listen son, you don't know enough to write defintions. You didn't even know the difference between _touch_ and _grab_. I feel sorry for your boyfriend.:whistling2:




> Backpedalling now, are we? You obviously don't comprehend basic electrical safety.


Back peddeling? Again, touch = touch, grab = grab. Look it up.



> You must be an idiot then because you did just that.... by your own admission.


 
I never said I wasn't an idiot. I have my moments. In some areas I'm pure Einstein. In others, not so much. :jester:



> I comprehend English enough to know you think touching energized conductors *is* harmless and slamming breakers repeatedly with a dead short is okee-dokee.


Read and understand all the words before passing judgement. 


Fact#1 : Touching energized conductors *can *be harmless. I can prove it beyond a doubt. 

Fact#2 : Trying to rest a simple tripping breaker is not likely to damage it. I can prove this beyond a _reasonable _doubt.



> Is that what you want on your headstone?


 








PS. I can go on all day long.:thumbup:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

220/221 said:


> ..............When someone answers a question with another question it usually means they don't know the answer. I am dead serious. Tell me how you would handle this call (resi short circuit)..........


It's really hard to describe, and you'll need a lot of expensive equipment and gear to pull it off, but try to follow along.

Take the ungrounded conductor off the breaker terminal. Wire nut it to the white wire of a lamp pigtail. Take the black conductor of the pigtail and put it on the breaker terminal.










Install a 100w A19 lamp in the pigtail.











Now, if the lamp burns at normal brightness, there's still a short in the circuit. When it dims or does not light at all, the short is cleared.

Now I know a pigtail and an A19 lamp are pricey items, so start saving your pennies instead of putting them in the fuse sockets.:thumbup:


Now, if you happen to have a standard fuse instead of a breaker (not the tamper-resistant types), you can screw the lamp right into the fuse holder and accomplish the same thing.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> Take the ungrounded conductor off the breaker terminal. Wire nut it to the white wire of a lamp pigtail. Take the black conductor of the pigtail and put it on the breaker terminal. Install a 100w A19 lamp in the pigtail.
> Now, if the lamp burns at normal brightness, there's still a short in the circuit. When it dims or does not light at all, the short is cleared.


 
Was that so difficult?



I have never used that method. The filament in the lamp somehow reduces the amperage and won't allow the breaker to trip?


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## jbrookers (Dec 7, 2008)

Because he is using the ungrounded conductor that has the short as his neutral for the light bulb circuit.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

220/221 said:


> ...........The filament in the lamp somehow reduces the amperage and won't allow the breaker to trip?


If I take one of the leads from the pigtail and put it on the breaker, and the other lead on the neutral/ground bar, what will happen to the lamp?


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## sparkall (Feb 11, 2010)

220/221 said:


> Was that so difficult?
> 
> 
> 
> I have never used that method. The filament in the lamp somehow reduces the amperage and won't allow the breaker to trip?


As soon as you pull that black wire off the breaker, while there is a short/ground fault somewhere on that circuit, that black wire becomes a neutral. Somewhere down the line that wire is touching a neutral or ground and the hot side of the circuit is now bonded to neutral/ground. So you hookup that black wire to one side of the bulb and the hot to another and it will burn hot as usual, until you open the short/ground fault.


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

jbrookers said:


> Because he is using the ungrounded conductor that has the short as his neutral for the light bulb circuit.


:blink: Never thought of it that way....drrrrrrrrrrr


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> As soon as you pull that black wire off the breaker, while there is a short/ground fault somewhere on that circuit, that black wire becomes a neutral. Somewhere down the line that wire is touching a neutral or ground and the hot side of the circuit is now bonded to neutral/ground. So you hookup that black wire to one side of the bulb and the hot to another and it will burn hot as usual, until you open the short/ground fault.


Let me read that a few more times. I'll get back tomorrow after I process it.:jester:



> Because he is using the ungrounded conductor that has the short as his neutral for the light bulb circuit.


 
Ahhh...bulb burn bright = short. 

Bulb off = clear.

Bulb is dim = no short but there is a load somewhere?

I understand the concept but not the science.


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## codeone (Sep 15, 2008)

220/221 said:


> I understand the concept but not the science.


 Ohms Law bites again!:laughing:


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

NolaTigaBait said:


> Yo
> 
> My old boss used to do this all the time.As far as the dead short, I was taught (im sure 220 was as well) to just keep resetting the breaker. And yes, your way of determining if a fault is clear is MUCH better. Can't wait to try it:thumbsup:.


Touching a single live wire at 120 V while not touching anything else will do nothing. You won't feel it at all. You could stick it in your mouth and nothing would happen. Having said that, it would be stupid to do this sort of thing as a general practice. I have demonstrated it a couple of times under very controlled conditions, but never as a substitute for test equipment.

As far as resetting the breaker goes, yes I reset once to see if it is a dead short, or an extreme overload, and it is my standard practice to replace any breaker that has tripped due to a short.


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