# Gray PVC conduit vs metal for exterior



## J V

Which is preferable? Gray PVC is susceptible to sunlight and metal can rust over time


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## HackWork

Good question. For services I use PVC. For other stuff I bounce back and forth depending on the situation and my mood. 

If you are by the ocean metal won't work well, but up where I am EMT is just fine. EMT needs expensive connectors and couplings if getting inspected. PVC gets wavy if not strapped well and allowed to expand and contract. 

Like I said, I can never decide.


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## sbrn33

For me it is EMT everytime, but we don't have saltwater around here.


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## J V

Any reason Gray PVC would not pass code outside?


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## HackWork

J V said:


> Any reason Gray PVC would not pass code outside?


Electrical PVC is fine outside.


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## 99cents

Electrical PVC has UV inhibitors in the resin used to make it.


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## sbrn33

J V said:


> Any reason Gray PVC would not pass code outside?


It is fine but you need to know your temp differential and how to strap it correctly between boxes.


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## MikeFL

HackWork said:


> Good question. For services I use PVC. For other stuff I bounce back and forth depending on the situation and my mood.
> 
> If you are by the ocean metal won't work well, but up where I am EMT is just fine. EMT needs expensive connectors and couplings if getting inspected. PVC gets wavy if not strapped well and allowed to expand and contract.
> 
> Like I said, I can never decide.


:no:

We do not use PVC for service risers here.


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## sbrn33

MikeFL said:


> :no:
> 
> We do not use PVC for service risers here.


I do sometimes. Just depends on my mood. I almost alway go from the meter to the panel with PVC though. Eliminate all the bull**** bonding nonsense.


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## 99cents

What is meant by "gray" PVC? Around here, PVC conduit is PVC conduit and is all virtually the same color.


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## frenchelectrican

99cents said:


> What is meant by "gray" PVC? Around here, PVC conduit is PVC conduit and is all virtually the same color.


Not always .,,

we sparkys use the grey one while the white one is used by turd handlers .,,

Oh ya .,, the white ones are useally not UV proof so they will get brittle and shatter over the time.


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## J V

My understanding is gray is used primarily for conduit. white for plumbing drains


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## HackWork

J V said:


> My understanding is gray is used primarily for conduit. white for plumbing drains


 Yes, but don't just look for gray pipe. You need to find PVC that is specific for electrical raceway.


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## J V

What is the identifier to distinguish it from other type of gray pipe?


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## cabletie

Threaded aluminum 

It will look the same 75/100 years from now. Cheaper and lighter than galvanized rigid. If you have to buy expansion fittings for PVC, you are getting close, if not the same cost as threaded aluminum. 

It's more work. But well worth it.


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## Service Call

I use sch. 80 PVC on the beachside all the time as long as it's not being used for supporting the poco drop. 




Sent from my house using 2 cans and a string


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## HackWork

J V said:


> What is the identifier to distinguish it from other type of gray pipe?


It will say on it that it is electrical conduit.



Service Call said:


> I use sch. 80 PVC on the beachside all the time as long as it's not being used for supporting the poco drop.


I always use schedule 40 for service risers and the service entrance from the meter into the house unless it's in a driveway in which the they want it to be schedule 80 under the meter.


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## robertandjada

HackWork said:


> Good question. For services I use PVC. For other stuff I bounce back and forth depending on the situation and my mood.
> 
> If you are by the ocean metal won't work well, but up where I am EMT is just fine. EMT needs expensive connectors and couplings if getting inspected. PVC gets wavy if not strapped well and allowed to expand and contract.
> 
> Like I said, I can never decide.


Also depending on the # of bends or boxes

Sent from my XT1058 using Tapatalk


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## joebanana

frenchelectrican said:


> Not always .,,
> 
> we sparkys use the grey one while the white one is used by turd handlers .,,
> 
> Oh ya .,, the white ones are useally not UV proof so they will get brittle and shatter over the time.


Besides, those sharp little 90's are a b*tch to pull through. :thumbup:


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## frenchelectrican

joebanana said:


> Besides, those sharp little 90's are a b*tch to pull through. :thumbup:


Every time I ever see those crap then I do charge extra to fix their fudge up work .,, 

those useally tell me that the weekend warriors or dolts done that to save themself extra bucks but they have own free time to fool around themself.,,


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## Barjack

MikeFL said:


> :no:
> 
> We do not use PVC for service risers here.


I do it. 

As long as the POA is independent of the PVC riser it will pass around here.


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## MechanicalDVR

Grey pvc conduit is fine exposed to sunlight and saltwater. EMT doesn't hold up down here on the water at all.


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## Barjack

MechanicalDVR said:


> Grey pvc conduit is fine exposed to sunlight and saltwater. EMT doesn't hold up down here on the water at all.


It is the main reason we require an insulated EGC in metal raceways here (Pinellas County).


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## HackWork

Barjack said:


> I do it.
> 
> As long as the POA is independent of the PVC riser it will pass around here.


Yup.

A *Riser* is just the conduit running up the vertical surface of the house. The point of attachment is separate.

A *Mast* is conduit that extends above the roof and has an attachment point for the overhead line.


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## HackWork

Barjack said:


> It is the main reason we require an insulated EGC in metal raceways here (Pinellas County).


Fez is from Pinellas Park, Florida. His father used to feed him chicken livers.


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## Barjack

HackWork said:


> Fez is from Pinellas Park, Florida. His father used to feed him chicken livers.


Fez is a Parker?

Who is Fez?


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## RePhase277

J V said:


> What is the identifier to distinguish it from other type of gray pipe?


I identify it largely by the fact that I purchased it from the electrical supplier, or found it in the electrical section of the big box.


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## MikeFL

RePhase277 said:


> I identify it largely by the fact that I purchased it from the electrical supplier, or found it in the electrical section of the big box.


If you read your code book it will tell you what standard it has to meet, and if you look on the pipe you will see that standard printed on the pipe.

Yes, I am too lazy to look it up.


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## mbednarik

EMT except for raceways between the meter can and panel, underground, fert buildings and ag buildings. Around here anything below 8' and PVC has to be Sch 80 as well.


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## MechanicalDVR

mbednarik said:


> EMT except for raceways between the meter can and panel, underground, fert buildings and ag buildings. Around here anything below 8' and PVC has to be Sch 80 as well.


I prefer sch 80 for anything over 1/2" in pvc.


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## active1

HackWork said:


> Electrical PVC is fine outside.


Just like saltwater and steel is a problem in some locations PVC and the desert has it's limitations.

We use PVC in all underground except 90s tend to be RMC wrapped or PVC coated ridged. They say the soil is acidic the eats up steel around here. But I never see it so I can't say. Sometimes metallic coming out of the ground into something other times PVC. Depends on length, shaded, abuse, specs.

Surface mounted PVC is never done here except chemical locations like pool room or some homeowner work. Inside certain structures like commercial it's a no, almost only metallic raceways.

Rooftops it would get killed in the sun. Don't care what they print on it, the sun tears up about anything not metallic or stone.

Cantex PCV:
Recommended maximum temperature is 122°F (50°C) and minimum installation temperature of -4°F (-20°C).

It was 113F the other day. But that is the reported ambient (air) temp.
The air is heated by objects on the Earth. So surface temp of objects are much higher. If I have a thermometer in the sun on an hot day it will read between 140-160+F. Then there is the possible heating of the conductor. 

If you go on a rooftop 10+ years old here it looks like someone hit everything with a torch. Plastic on the end of a disconnect handle melted. Sealtight with brown scorch marks, dry-rotted, cracked. Cords cracking at bends. Labels backed till they turned brown.

Above ground conduit corrosion is not an issue here. Horizontal runs on a building exterior should be spaced off, such as a mini, strut, or backstrap. To prevent dirt buildup with moisture leading to corrosion. Not followed, known, or enforced by many here. Even still it doesn't seem to rust in this climate.

The newer homes are done with a PVC lateral, meter panel combo enclosed in the wall. Older overhead EMT or RMC. Just what I see, I'm not in that segment. 

Chicago and many areas around it was all rigid. Everything exterior down to a 1/2" branch circuit. Services had to be ridged up to the 1st disconnect. The electrode system had to be also ridgid. Some of the easier towns would let you use EMT for branch and feeders. We used steel and AL, but I don't remember what areas you could use what. January & February it would always get below 0F.


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## MechanicalDVR

active1 said:


> Just like saltwater and steel is a problem in some locations PVC and the desert has it's limitations.
> 
> We use PVC in all underground except 90s tend to be RMC wrapped or PVC coated ridged. They say the soil is acidic the eats up steel around here. But I never see it so I can't say. Sometimes metallic coming out of the ground into something other times PVC. Depends on length, shaded, abuse, specs.
> 
> Surface mounted PVC is never done here except chemical locations like pool room or some homeowner work. Inside certain structures like commercial it's a no, almost only metallic raceways.
> 
> Rooftops it would get killed in the sun. Don't care what they print on it, the sun tears up about anything not metallic or stone.
> 
> Cantex PCV:
> Recommended maximum temperature is 122°F (50°C) and minimum installation temperature of -4°F (-20°C).
> 
> It was 113F the other day. But that is the reported ambient (air) temp.
> The air is heated by objects on the Earth. So surface temp of objects are much higher. If I have a thermometer in the sun on an hot day it will read between 140-160+F. Then there is the possible heating of the conductor.
> 
> If you go on a rooftop 10+ years old here it looks like someone hit everything with a torch. Plastic on the end of a disconnect handle melted. Sealtight with brown scorch marks, dry-rotted, cracked. Cords cracking at bends. Labels backed till they turned brown.
> 
> Above ground conduit corrosion is not an issue here. Horizontal runs on a building exterior should be spaced off, such as a mini, strut, or backstrap. To prevent dirt buildup with moisture leading to corrosion. Not followed, known, or enforced by many here. Even still it doesn't seem to rust in this climate.
> 
> The newer homes are done with a PVC lateral, meter panel combo enclosed in the wall. Older overhead EMT or RMC. Just what I see, I'm not in that segment.
> 
> Chicago and many areas around it was all rigid. Everything exterior down to a 1/2" branch circuit. Services had to be ridged up to the 1st disconnect. The electrode system had to be also ridgid. Some of the easier towns would let you use EMT for branch and feeders. We used steel and AL, but I don't remember what areas you could use what. January & February it would always get below 0F.


Just goes to prove you need to match the material to the environment it will be living in.


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## telsa

These raceways are ENTIRELY dictated by the Poco's standards.

They are entirely outside the NEC// CEC.

&&&&&

There is a strong trend for noobie posters to posit Poco raceways as if they are NEC raceways.

They are NOT.

Legally, in MOST jurisdictions, you get to install it, pay for it... and then promptly deed it over to the Poco -- as its asset -- for NOTHING.

This deeding over is a Condition of Service.

This is the NORM... nationally.

The Poco/ the 'System' has to have a point of demarcation that separates the utility from YOU.

This is how it's done.
*
This* is why Risers // Sevice Laterals are so over-built.

You are NOT permitted to "value engineer" this portion of the raceway nor the conductors.

Yet, week after week, we have geniuses posting how they've discovered how to value engineer Poco drops// Service Laterals.

*There is NO MONEY to be had// made attempting such schemes.*

Only about 100,000 journey-men have preceded you in such 'projects.'

And, that's just in your town.

Knock it off.

You make the Big Bucks by being marketing-sales whizzes -- and executing the work FAST.

There is NO PROFIT to be had by chiselling a couple of bucks on this or that minor material.

*Hard as it is to believe, the jokers who price our minor materials -- are totally 'hip' to how much labor is involved. 

Imagine THAT !*

The 'expensive' gadget is priced BECAUSE it's a substitute for your labor.

It's the Dufus who is obsessed with minor materials expenses.

Winners, are dedicated towards FAST, CLEAN solutions.

_Obsessions_ with* PVC* surface mount// over-head raceways = you ARE a hack 'electrician.'

Any dufus can cut PVC, can slap around solvent. ( THF )

Any market that permits such hack-work = don't need real electricians = any clown can slap PVC together.

For example: see the old photos of Chicken Steve's PVC travesties.

Ugh.


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## HackWork

Telsa, we value engineer service risers all the time.

They used to be rigid. We now do them out of cheaper PVC or even SE cable just to make it faster and cheaper.


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## telsa

THF = Tetra Hydro Furan

Everything else in the jar is stabliser.

THF can be bought for PEANUTS to 'restore' old cans of PVC solvent.

Yes, it's manufactured by the TON.

You're paying twenty-times over for THF -- as canned at the supply house.

Don't blame your supply house, BTW.


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## telsa

HackWork said:


> Telsa, we value engineer service risers all the time.
> 
> They used to be rigid. We now do them out of cheaper PVC or even SE cable just to make it faster and cheaper.


My Poco would vomit.

ALL of the work, regardless of merit, would have to come off the building.

Tragic,

But, true.


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## HackWork

But that's only your PoCo, not the rest of ours.

In our area, your services would fail inspection because the service mast is often inside of the wall, which is a clear NEC violation.


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## telsa

HackWork said:


> Telsa, we value engineer service risers all the time.
> 
> They used to be rigid. We now do them out of cheaper PVC or even SE cable just to make it faster and cheaper.


Does ANY of that end up in YOUR pocket ?

Where I live, such elegance is proferred to the customers// Pocos.

You work yorr a$$ off and quickly discover that you've established a new Poco standard.

The ONLY way to make any headway is to do so AFTER the meter.

( Residential )

Practically overnight, any elegant Riser // Service Lateral solution 'leaks' to every competitor you might imagine..

Take a wild guess as to who 'blabs.'


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## active1

Tesla
"These raceways are ENTIRELY dictated by the Poco's standards.
They are entirely outside the NEC// CEC.
There is a strong trend for noobie posters to posit Poco raceways as if they are NEC raceways."

Sorry if I gave that impression.
I was actually thinking of writing POCO requirements dictates, expansion, how it's maximum temp is degraded with exposure, & hazardous locations.
But I figured I wrote too much about a PVC outside topic.
Figure chapter 352 is just over 2.5 pages, I already wrote about 1 page.


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## Wirenut951

J V said:


> Any reason Gray PVC would not pass code outside?


If the area is very hot like the desert or other areas that have really hot summers, and the PVC is in direct sunlight, over time I have seen it warp. I have seen some solar installations where they ran the riser to the roof in pvc and after several years the pvc begins to warp and it looks really bad.


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## electric_mayhem

PVC coated RMC??? If you care that much


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## cmdr_suds

J V said:


> What is the identifier to distinguish it from other type of gray pipe?


UL for electrical
NSF for plumbing


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## hornetd

It comes down to knowing were the demarcation point is in your State. The States Public Utility Regulator sets that point in their regulations. Once it is set the POCO has no say at all in what happens beyond it. I have had a few conflicts over Forty years in the craft and I survived every one of them without spending the clients money needlessly. In Maryland; just as one example; the splices between the overhead drop and the Service Entry Wiring is the absolute limit of POCO influence over the installation.

Conflict example: POCO COOP foreman says I have to provide a 4" lateral raceway. I reply "Not in Maryland Pally." He declines to install. I call Public Service Commission; which is Maryland's Utility Regulator. Their engineer green flagged the install as compliant. Foreman say's it doesn't meet COOP service standards for the length of the run. I point out the PUC Order to Connect on the Raceway at the COOP pole. Foreman say's why the hell didn't you put it on the closest building. I tried ONE TIME to explain that the Service Equipment holds the water pump over-current protection and the water pump is the only means that the occupants have to fight a fire. 

I simply was not going to build a separate service just for the water pump so that his crew didn't have to pull a hundred feet of conduit. He declined to install. Next day he installed under PUC engineering supervision with the COOP's manager in close attendance. Yeah he was pissed. Two months later another long 3" conduit for the COOP's service lateral for another part of that church retreat center campus. The Foreman starts his BS again and I hold up my Cellular bag phone; yes it was a long time ago. He shuts up and installs. One of his colleagues tries to tell me I need three feet of conductor past the bottom and top of the meter can on a yard pole install. I had provided a full foot past the lugs in each case. The Service Entry Conductors overlapped by six inches right at the PUC height for the meter. I asked him if he wanted me to post the site against scrap removal as allowed by PUC rules. He then installed without further discussion. Then the First foreman says I have to land the Grounding electrode Conductor for the Rod type Grounding Electrodes in the Meter Can. I told him that since the structure had a Concrete Encased Electrode I wouldn't be installing any Driven Rod Grounding Electrodes and went back to work on the bath house piping. He left a red flag and a call to energize after installation notice. I made the call and the COOP's outside plant manager showed up with a service truck crew at 8:00 PM that night. to energize the service. 

I offered to walk the rest of the install with him and we did so. He said that the foreman were old Rural Electrification Administration (REA) trained hands and had a lot of trouble excepting change. I told him the why of what I was doing with the water pump system, emergency lighting, standby power, and so forth and all issues ceased. I never raised my voice with anyone. Never said anything challenging. When I hit trouble, were I new the job was done right, I just called in the State regulators and remembered that this wasn't my quarrel. It was always between the COOP and the PUC. 

Know your State's Utility Regulator's Regulations governing services and you can keep it from being your quarrel to. 

Tom


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