# CFL vs metal halide vs hps



## The Lightman

What size and height are you looking for?


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## The Lightman

nrp3 said:


> say a wall pack.


I say the ultimate wall pack. 85 lumens per watt with a five year warranty. Around $350.00. HPS is good for roadway lighting. Pulse start metal halide is a fine light, but in the first five years of this LED flood, the MH will go through at least two lamps and depending on usage/location maybe a ballast or two.
http://www.electraled.com/pdfs/el_OHtechspecs.pdf


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## Electric_Light

Metal halide decays significantly more than CFL or HPS

HPS has mediocre color rendition. 

For a warehouse high bay fixture, you have enough space to use a larger fluorescent fixture, but for a small source lighting like parking lot light that must endure wind gust, I don't know if there is a CFL drop in that is satisfactory. 

Some local transit light terminals did a screw-in daylight CFL retrofit for what looks like fixtures that originally housed HID and not surprisingly light level is way low.

LEDs and CFLs are both temperature sensitive. HIDs are not.


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## nrp3

I guess I am probably more concerned with security and parking lot lighting in this case. I guess it comes down to light output per watt. I think for small areas where low cost is the primary issue, cfl is good. I think though you need more cfl fixtures to light the same area as fewer hid. In the end, I'm not so sure they are more efficient. I just don't know how to prove it. I don't think they win on bulb life.


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## mattsilkwood

IMO for your application, you're throwing your money away using anything but metal halide. CFLs don't last and HPS has the worst color of any of them.


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## Lighting Retro

You will have a tough time finding CFL's that will last as long as the HID's. The CRI is higher and looks nicer though, and of course uses less juice. I recently replaced a 100W MH security light with a 59W CFL that was bowl shaped, and surprisingly the light looked much better via CFL. I'm sure the 100W HID had depreciated greatly over time. 

Fluorescent technology is best used in applications where they are on for 12+ hours, so wall packs qualify. However, you do want to buy a fixture built for CFL's with a warranty. I see wall packs with (2) 42 W CFL's that work well for most applications up to 250W. If one lamp fails, you still have some light, but I do think you will be replacing lamps more often. 

is it a better deal? You really have to figure out your savings on electricity compared to the additional cost of labor for lamp change outs to truly know.


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## Electric_Light

Lighting Retro said:


> You will have a tough time finding CFL's that will last as long as the HID's. The CRI is higher and looks nicer though, and of course uses less juice. I recently replaced a 100W MH security light with a 59W CFL that was bowl shaped, and surprisingly the light looked much better via CFL. I'm sure the 100W HID had depreciated greatly over time.



System efficacy is not great with CFLs. Usually in 60-70 lm/W range. Of all those, HPS offers the best maintained lm/W. Watt for watt, HPS has the best output, and CFLs and MHs are similar, depending on their actual wattage. HPS offers the best light maintenance over life and temperature.

MH loses output considerably with age, but not with temperature.

CFL significantly loses output if they get too hot, which is not unlikely in an enclosed fixture.




> I see wall packs with (2) 42 W CFL's that work well for most applications up to 250W.* If one lamp fails,* you still have some light.


Not necessarily. You need to include parallel independent operation into luminaire specifications if that is required. ICF-2S42 from Advance is a fairly common brand name ballast for 42W CFLs, but it's series wired, so if one goes out both goes out.


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## LightsRus

*Landfill issues with Fluorescent*

I stumbled upon this article 
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?pageId=72133

We are outlawing incandescent because of energy waste, and replacing with mercury and phosphor going into the water supply.


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## Electric_Light

LightsRus said:


> I stumbled upon this article
> http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?pageId=72133
> 
> We are outlawing incandescent because of energy waste, and replacing with mercury and phosphor going into the water supply.


This coming from LED sales guy. Not surprising.

If you're in Vancouver, BC, its true CFLs have higher lifetime mercury emissions than incandescent because the power is sourced from hydroelectric, but if you're in Cleveland OH where majority of power is from coal fired plants, most of mercury comes from smokestacks at the power plants. 

Overall, mercury emissions is reduced even if we assume fluorescent lamp mercury is totally released into the environment when we consider the reduction in smokestack mercury emission from not having to generate the kWh difference between incandescent and fluorescent. The reduction from mercury emissions over the life of lamps from energy saved is many times that of the mercury in the lamps.


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## LightsRus

Electric_Light said:


> This coming from LED sales guy. Not surprising.


There was NO mention of LEDs in this posting. 
I live on this planet and have concerns about the entire CFL thing. 



> If you're in Vancouver, BC, its true CFLs have higher lifetime mercury emissions than incandescent because the power is sourced from hydroelectric, but if you're in Cleveland OH where majority of power is from coal fired plants, most of mercury comes from smokestacks at the power plants.
> 
> Overall, mercury emissions is reduced even if we assume fluorescent lamp mercury is totally released into the environment when we consider the reduction in smokestack mercury emission from not having to generate the kWh difference between incandescent and fluorescent. The reduction from mercury emissions over the life of lamps from energy saved is many times that of the mercury in the lamps.


The issue of airborne mercury in the news clip was when the lamps are broken, NOT during ordinary use. My posting had to do with disposal of these CFLs. We opened the door to millions of imported CFLs and will never, ever control the actual chemical content. *We will wait for some catastrophe before we discover some imported poisonous compound snuck into a CFL.*

You seem to be on a different plane than most, how about replying to the actual issues raised in the article, and in my post; that will be good.

After seeing lots of your replies, it is obvious that you will twist a subject, or change it entirely, just so you can have a debate. It does create a grin, thank you.


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## Cletis

*Lights*

I'm partial to these guys http://www.everlastlight.com/

They have alot of info on site as well to make a decision


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## Bob Badger

Electric_Light said:


> This coming from LED sales guy. Not surprising.


And what is it that you sell?


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## Cletis

*STuff*

I don't sell anything particular. I like alot of things. I like Arlington Stuff, Raco, Dottie, Flir thermometers, Scotchkote, lenox, Stabiloy, RAB, Ruud, etc...

Your not one of those paranoid, delusional, old codgers who thinks everyone is out to get them or sell them something are you? 

Cletis

I do have some nice KVAR products I can recommend if you wish.


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## LightsRus

Cletis said:


> I'm partial to these guys http://www.everlastlight.com/
> 
> They have alot of info on site as well to make a decision


Thanks for that site, Cletis.

It does have a lot of good info. They are making their IES files available on the site, and those have ITL test numbers as well. 

They say the outdoor lighting has an integrated heat sink system, which I can confirm is essential with the post-top acorn fixtures. An Induction retrofit kit is not possible without addressing the heat, so that's something for all to be aware of.

The lumen maintenance is stated as 70% at 100,000 hours. That may be a stretch because it's unlikely they have real data that goes back that far. But they're all doing that.


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## LightsRus

*Re: Landfill issues with Fluorescent*



Electric_Light said:


> This coming from LED sales guy. Not surprising.


That pesky sales guy stumbled onto this site http://www.epa.gov/epawaste/hazard/wastetypes/universal/lamps/index.htm quite by accident. Really.

(By the way - Electric_Light - what _do_ you sell?)


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## amptech

4 years ago I put up a 65W CFL d-to-d light at our farm to replace a 175W merc-vap. I was impressed with the light out-put and color but was skeptical of how long it would last. It has been 4 years now and I haven't touched it. It still works fine. I put up another one 2 months ago on the other side of the barn lot and expected a noticeable difference in brightness between the two. You can see them both at the same time and they look equal in brightness and color. They are both cheap $35.00 fixtures.


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## LightsRus

Lighting Retro said:


> You will have a tough time finding CFL's that will last as long as the HID's. The CRI is higher and looks nicer though, and of course uses less juice. I recently replaced a 100W MH security light with a 59W CFL that was bowl shaped, and surprisingly the light looked much better via CFL. I'm sure the 100W HID had depreciated greatly over time.


I found data from a few places to compile a graph.









I am sure some of this is manufacturer dependent, so please offer corrections if you have additional data.
This shows fluorescent may be the better lumen maintenance.

Many applications of the HPS will be in accordance with IESNA RP-8 which addresses numerous life governing mechanisms, such as natural lamp aging, dirt build up in different locations (commercial, residential, industrial, etc.). In RP-8 this is accompanied with recommendation of how much to oversize a new installation. They build the depreciation in on the front side.

With exception of Ceramalux, typical HID drops more than 10% in first 10K hours, and typically isn't usable past 20K hours. 
A _typical_ LED design may diminish to 70% in 50K hours, and most Induction lights claim 70% at 60K hours.


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## Electric_Light

LightsRus said:


> I found data from a few places to compile a graph.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am sure some of this is manufacturer dependent, so please offer corrections if you have additional data.
> This shows fluorescent may be the better lumen maintenance.
> 
> Many applications of the HPS will be in accordance with IESNA RP-8 which addresses numerous life governing mechanisms, such as natural lamp aging, dirt build up in different locations (commercial, residential, industrial, etc.). In RP-8 this is accompanied with recommendation of how much to oversize a new installation. They build the depreciation in on the front side.
> 
> With exception of Ceramalux, typical HID drops more than 10% in first 10K hours, and typically isn't usable past 20K hours.
> A _typical_ LED design may diminish to 70% in 50K hours, and most Induction lights claim 70% at 60K hours.


When you compare brand name specific item against others, you're either using worst possible for the other category or assume they're all the same. 

I don't know of any current fluorescent that loses 20% in 22,000 hours. The now dominant RE80 T8s (RE70 are going to be outlawed in 2012, since they don't meet DOE minimum efficacy), the loss is less than 10% over lifetime, but often 5-6% and life is anywhere from 24,000 to 46,000 hours depending on ballast type and on-time per power-cycle.


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## LightsRus

Electric_Light said:


> When you compare brand name specific item against others, you're either using worst possible for the other category or assume they're all the same.
> 
> I don't know of any current fluorescent that loses 20% in 22,000 hours. The now dominant RE80 T8s (RE70 are going to be outlawed in 2012, since they don't meet DOE minimum efficacy), the loss is less than 10% over lifetime, but often 5-6% and life is anywhere from 24,000 to 46,000 hours depending on ballast type and on-time per power-cycle.


Your assessment may be correct, or not, depending...... 
This type of data is subject wide variance, as follows: The IESNA LM-40-01 (Approved Method for Life Testing of Fluorescent Lamps) uses a standard operating cycle of 3 hours on, 20 minutes off. Manufacturer presented data will likely use 12-hours per start. 

Fluorescent wasn't mentioned in the topic of this thread, but I threw it in for reference. Not to down-play standard fluorescent, I would like to see more on CFL comparisons from those more knowledgeable, since CFL will soon flood our space.

BTW - the LRC rates the RE80 at 24,000 hours. Maybe you are using _best-case_ data also?


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## Electric_Light

LightsRus said:


> Your assessment may be correct, or not, depending......
> This type of data is subject wide variance, as follows: The IESNA LM-40-01 (Approved Method for Life Testing of Fluorescent Lamps) uses a standard operating cycle of 3 hours on, 20 minutes off. Manufacturer presented data will likely use 12-hours per start.


Yes and no. If it only lists one life, its based on 3 hour. 

Now more and more lamps specify four specs. 
prog rapid start 3hr, 12hr
instant start 3hr, 12hr



> BTW - the LRC rates the RE80 at 24,000 hours. Maybe you are using _best-case_ data also?


RE80 is not anything specific. It simply refers to rare earth phosphor type lamps with a CRI of 80-89. RE80 is more efficacious than RE70. 

RE70 or 80 doesn't affect the lifetime if you're comparing lifetime until 50% failure. RE70 is practically getting outlawed simply because they don't meet the new DOE efficacy standards. 

RE70 is the low-bid T8s. RE80 blend is used in higher end T8s, almost all CFLs and T5s (excluding classic T5s like F8T5 thats been around for decades). They're not outlawed yet, but they don't meet energy efficiency credit from various organizations and utilities, so RE80s are starting to dominate.

Basic T8s today are 24,000 hour average on 3hr/instant start. It was 20,000 a while ago. 

Long life are rated 36,000 hrs on 3hr/instant start, 40,000 hrs 12hr/instant and 94% of original output at end of life.


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## Johnpaul

LPS provides the most lumens for the dollar which is why cities are converting over to it for street lighting. It is a very unattractive light source - OK for parking lots unless you need to find your car by its color. It is also not as good a light source in terms of night vision so more lumens are needed than when using metal halide lighting which negates a lot of the benefits. Our eyes work better with blue lighting. 

Problem with CFL for exterior use is the problems with getting them to provide full illumination when it is cold. 

We work with a lighting designer whenever possible as most people try to light up the entire area when all they really need are wall wash lights and accent or LV boundary lights (along a driveway, etc.). Most communities where we work also have strict codes that limit exterior lights to ones that cannot be seen by a neighbor and that do not shine up into the sky.


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## Electric_Light

There's only one or two sites in my entire metro area I'm aware of that uses LPS (SOX). 

They have a very distinct amber color that is hard to miss and a rather long fixture head. 

They have zero color rendering ability. It's a monochromatic source,so everyone is absolutely color blind in that light. 

HPS has very poor color rendition, but it does provide limited ability to distinguish colors.


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## shineretrofits

In my opinion the CFL's are great for lower wattage applications for outdoor lighting. If you are replacing any kind of HID, HPS, etc. 100W or below, you can find inexpensive CFL wallpacks or fixtures. Typically we use a standard where any CFL or fluorescent lamp will give you the same light with 50% less energy use compared to whatever old technology is in there now. Sometimes you can go higher due to the better quality of light also.

If you have a little more money to spend and have some fixtures with 100W+ in them now, induction lighting typically lasts 80,000-100,000 hours. Induction is more expensive than CFL, but less expensive than LED's, which put out much less light output and don't last as long anyway. We use a lot of induction retrofit kits on projects that are about half the price of new induction fixtures because you just replace the old lamp and ballasts with the new ones and keep your existing fixture. It proves to be a great cost effective solution when you already have wallpacks or parking lot pole lights installed.

Just my $.02


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## nrp3

The energy savings are obviously there as well as maintenance costs for that induction lighting you sell. I would like to know, though, that if I swap out, say, a 250w metal halide ballast and bulb, for say one of those 150w kits in a flood, that I would still get the same amount of light from the fixture.


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## shineretrofits

nrp3 said:


> The energy savings are obviously there as well as maintenance costs for that induction lighting you sell. I would like to know, though, that if I swap out, say, a 250w metal halide ballast and bulb, for say one of those 150w kits in a flood, that I would still get the same amount of light from the fixture.


The answer is yes and no. On paper the lumen outputs of HID's are higher. For instance - 250W HID's mean lumen output ranges from about 14,000 to 17,000 lumens typically. 150W induction bulbs put out in the range of 11,000 lumens and depreciate very slowly over the life of the bulb, so it's safe to say you'll keep at least 9-10,000 lumens over the first 8-10 years or so. Some will debate the exact figures but this is a close ballpark figure. So technically you get more maintained lumens with the HID/HPS's but that is not the whole story -

The other side of this is the light quality increase that dramatically increases the perception of brightness, even though the technical lumen figures are lower. There are a lot of technical factors that go into things like scotopic lighting, higher kelvin temperatures (induction is 5000K - appearing more pure or white), and other things. Due to these factors, you can really get big energy savings with induction lighting and it looks impressively bright compared to the old HIDs, even though the lumen figures are lower.

Most people in my experience will shoot for well over 50% energy savings. Generally I see people with 175W HID's go with 40W or 70W induction, 250W HID's typically use the 100W, and 400W HID's will use the 150W. The last project we worked on had 400W HID pole lights at 30ft and they went with 150W Induction. We looked at the HID and Induction poles right next to each other and I could not tell the difference between the two in terms of brightness. That solution was about a 63% energy savings so they were really pleased.

Others may chime in with more technical details but I hope this helps.


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## nrp3

Are there brackets included with these induction kits to allow for easy retrofit in HID fixtures? The prices don't seem too bad considering the cost of a new HID bulb and ballast. My property management customer has some 250w metal halide floods and a few 400w HPS poles that might be candidates for this if I knew it would be feasible.


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## LightsRus

shineretrofits said:


> 150W induction bulbs put out in the range of 11,000 lumens and depreciate very slowly over the life of the bulb, so it's safe to say you'll keep at least 9-10,000 lumens over the first 8-10 years or so. Some will debate the exact figures but this is a close ballpark figure. So technically you get more maintained lumens with the HID/HPS's but that is not the whole story -


Do you have lumen maintenance curves, showing what output can be expected at 50,000 and 100,000 hours?


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## bobelectric

That would be the day a customer would call me an idiot!


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## shineretrofits

The picture is small but here is the maintenance curve for the induction retrofit kits I am familiar with -


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## shineretrofits

Also here is another one I found online that compares all the current technologies in a nice graph. The induction curve is a bit higher on this one for some reason but in general this is a good ballpark comparison -


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## 10492

LightsRus said:


> Do you have lumen maintenance curves, showing what output can be expected at 50,000 and 100,000 hours?


The bulb is actually rated to last forever, barring any physical abuse.

From what I've read, the ignition coil, if you will, is the weak point. It is only rated for 50,000 hrs. However, some I've read about have them rated up to 100,000 hrs.


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## 10492

nrp3 said:


> Are there brackets included with these induction kits to allow for easy retrofit in HID fixtures? The prices don't seem too bad considering the cost of a new HID bulb and ballast. My property management customer has some 250w metal halide floods and a few 400w HPS poles that might be candidates for this if I knew it would be feasible.


 
You would do yourself justice by retrofitting the reflectors in the fixture, if you switch to Induction bulbs. Using the reflectors designed for HPS and MH would not enchance the light very effectively and you won't get the same patern of light from it.

FWIW.


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## Lighting Retro

Nothing is made to last forever.


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## Lighting Retro

Also, please be aware that retrofitting with induction comes with the inherent danger of an insufficient heat sink. New induction fixtures are designed to dissipate the heat, but not older fixtures that have components that are less sensitive to heat. Putting Induction or LED in fixtures not designed for them will likely cause premature product failure, and induction manufacturers won't warranty the application unless it's been tested in the lab first in our experience.


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## 10492

Lighting Retro said:


> Nothing is made to last forever.


Taxes do.


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## LightsRus

Lighting Retro said:


> Also, please be aware that retrofitting with induction comes with the inherent danger of an insufficient heat sink. New induction fixtures are designed to dissipate the heat, but not older fixtures that have components that are less sensitive to heat. Putting Induction or LED in fixtures not designed for them will likely cause premature product failure, and induction manufacturers won't warranty the application unless it's been tested in the lab first in our experience.


Yes, we've discussed the thermal issues with Induction in this thread. 

Yes, one must be cautious with self-ballasted induction lamps in fixtures without adequate airflow. The manufacturer should bless that before you go too far.


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## shineretrofits

LightsRus said:


> Yes, we've discussed the thermal issues with Induction in this thread.
> 
> Yes, one must be cautious with self-ballasted induction lamps in fixtures without adequate airflow. The manufacturer should bless that before you go too far.


I agree on the self-ballasted ones without question. The heat is concentrated all in one area and will most likely last well under 100,000 hours depending on the fixture specifications, outside temperature, etc. Definitely make sure there is a warranty of some sort on those and expect maybe 50,000 hours or so to be safe.

The specific kits I'm referencing above are ones like the Kumho Econergy Line that has a bulb and heatsink attached together with a separate ballast that installs usually in the same place as the old HID ballast, which helps a lot in dispersing the heat more efficiently. Philips carriers that type as well.


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## Lighting Retro

I've had a kit designed with a 120W induction solution in an enclosed fixture. The kit failed the first round of testing, and it was NOT a self ballasted product. They had to specially design a heat sink and ballast/generator cover to keep the ballast from failing. I was looking to install about 500 of them, so you can imagine how tragic that would have been to have had massive kit failures that were not properly tested.


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## nrp3

How would one retrofit a different reflector into an existing fixture? I can understand that the reflector is important, especially with these or maybe led and not getting the light output you expect. The bulb shape shown is different than most of the HID lamps i've seen. I'd still like to try one out though especially where I could see one next to an existing fixture.


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## Lighting Retro

nrp3 said:


> How would one retrofit a different reflector into an existing fixture? I can understand that the reflector is important, especially with these or maybe led and not getting the light output you expect. The bulb shape shown is different than most of the HID lamps i've seen. I'd still like to try one out though especially where I could see one next to an existing fixture.


The manufacturer of the induction kit will often produce a different reflector to optimize the use of their product.


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## 10492

Lighting Retro said:


> I've had a kit designed with a 120W induction solution in an enclosed fixture.


Lot light, cobra head, or speciality fixture?




Lighting Retro said:


> The kit failed the first round of testing, and it was NOT a self ballasted product.


Can you describe the testing procedures if you know them?

Did you put them in a temp chamber and run tests?


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## Lighting Retro

Dnkldorf said:


> Lot light, cobra head, or speciality fixture?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can you describe the testing procedures if you know them?
> 
> Did you put them in a temp chamber and run tests?


The fixture was a Rig a Light

http://www.rigalite.com/index.php?act=view&id=36

For the testing procedure done, Fulham actually used their testing facility that was a controlled environment. They take measurements at several places inside the fixture over a period of time. They know at what temperatures the product will work at long term so they can warranty their product. Knowing ambient temperature of the environment is very important as well. They program the room for the temperature you give them, and then perform the test. They can actually RE-UL list the fixture once it passes their tests and provide documentation if you have the 8-12 weeks for the process. 

If you want to see what the tests looked like, shoot me a message with your email and I'll send over what I received. I thought it was a great selling point for the customer that we did our due diligence. Chances are, this company has built a retrofit kit for the fixture you need to do at this point, but if not, they will create a custom kit and mass produce if needed after testing.


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## branover

Doesn't it really just depend on the lighting the customer desires. Some like the yellow light other like the bright white white, cool white. etc...

Los Angeles Electrician


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## Electric_Light

shineretrofits said:


> Also here is another one I found online that compares all the current technologies in a nice graph. The induction curve is a bit higher on this one for some reason but in general this is a good ballpark comparison -



80% @ 90,000 hours? They must be from another planet. 

CFLs and induction are basically the same. The phosphor is highly loaded, meaning that they phosphor operates at high UV intensity in mW/cm^2. They also degrade at about the same rate. 

The only difference is that normal CFLs fail due to electrode failure. With induction, the lumen depreciation is about the same at the same usage, but continue to function, because there is no electrode to fail, but phosphor will continue to decay.

Some CFLs, like PL-L 55W (which is basically F54T5/HO folded in half and it uses the same ballast) maintains lumen a lot longer than common CFLs, because the arc power density is much lower. 


If you look at 26W "spring lamp" CFL and a 32W T8, then divide the wattage by inner surface area, you'll see that CFLs are loaded much heavier. They use the same RE80 phosphors. The power density of CFLs is often comparable to that of VHO lamps.


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## nrp3

Ok, but what does that mean? In looking at replacements for HID outdoor fixtures in the 250w MH or 400w HPS, is there a cfl fixture that I could use? All the large wattage self ballasted cfls that I've seen aren't good for outdoor use.


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## LightsRus

nrp3 said:


> Ok, but what does that mean? In looking at replacements for HID outdoor fixtures in the 250w MH or 400w HPS, is there a cfl fixture that I could use? All the large wattage self ballasted cfls that I've seen aren't good for outdoor use.


CFL is not a good choice for outdoor HID replacement. There are lumen maintenance graphs presented earlier in this thread showing comparisons.

There is another thread http://www.electriciantalk.com/f8/induction-lighting-replace-hid-8276/index2/ discussing Induction to replace HID. There is a graph shown, and link to the Sylvania Icetron data sheet. Look carefully at the temperature limits regarding the type of fixture. 
There are some climates too cold for Induction (or CFL) and there are some sealed fixtures that will allow Induction (and CFL) to cook themselves to early death.


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## nrp3

In the apts I do a lot of work for, they've had me or others replace all the mercury post line lighting with screw in cfl replacement and the light level seems to be fine. Bulb life seems to be hit or miss. They just seem to think that cfl can replace anything and it comes back to how many fixtures are you trying to replace and can you get enough light out of what you are installing to do the job. We just took out most of those poles I mentioned at one property and installed several cfl floods on the building wall. Fortunately, we installed enough to keep the light levels up. I have to argue with them, though, that if you trying to replace the higher wattage HID one for one, I don't think its realistic yet.


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## LightsRus

nrp3 said:


> In the apts I do a lot of work for, they've had me or others replace all the mercury post line lighting with screw in cfl replacement and the light level seems to be fine. Bulb life seems to be hit or miss. They just seem to think that cfl can replace anything and it comes back to how many fixtures are you trying to replace and can you get enough light out of what you are installing to do the job. We just took out most of those poles I mentioned at one property and installed several cfl floods on the building wall. Fortunately, we installed enough to keep the light levels up. I have to argue with them, though, that if you trying to replace the higher wattage HID one for one, I don't think its realistic yet.


If you mean Mercury Vapor, then anything is an improvement, in both light output and maintenance. 
You can use some of the lifespan graphics to show the management a relamping schedule.


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## nrp3

Yes, they were mercury vapor and the nice thing was lamp life. No ballasts with the screw in, so maintenance can handle the bulb changes now and the light output looks good. Wish they'd keep the same color bulbs in all of them, but thats minor.


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## LightsRus

nrp3 said:


> Yes, they were mercury vapor and the nice thing was lamp life. No ballasts with the screw in, so maintenance can handle the bulb changes now and the light output looks good. Wish they'd keep the same color bulbs in all of them, but thats minor.


There is certainly very little cost difference to match the color, lamp to lamp. 
You would think that tenants would complain if the lighting color varied from cool to warm to neutral to cool white around the complex.


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## nrp3

This is elderly housing. Well maintained though. The maintenance guys buy the bulbs and sometimes forget the K color.


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## LightsRus

nrp3 said:


> This is elderly housing. Well maintained though. The maintenance guys buy the bulbs and sometimes forget the K color.


The maintenance guys could join this forum and learn about these things.

I have noticed lighting in food court areas of shopping malls and airports suffer the same problem. It looks pretty nasty to see warm white and cool white mixed all around. The food will appear different too, but that may not matter with that type of fast food. If the lighting could actually make it taste better, then we'd have something.

But seriously, outdoor lighting of the perimeter of an apartment complex is for security. It helps in the identification of color, be it clothing, skin, hair, car or whatever. 

I was told about a parking enforcement event on a street lit with low pressure sodium lights. Parking tickets were issued to a few cars that parked where the curb was painted red. The cop knew the curb was red in daylight, but under the LPS lighting, the curb was brown. When the facts were presented, the Judge threw those tickets out.


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## shineretrofits

Electric_Light said:


> 80% @ 90,000 hours? They must be from another planet.


Yes I agree the graph is incorrect like I mentioned above. If someone has a more accurate one with all the technologies please post.

I thought this might help some people or give more reference at least. These are the 150W induction retrofit kits we've been talking about. Sorry about the lack of video quality, the camera we had was not a dedicated video camera. This just shows what the light output looks like with these induction kits installed. This was put in the existing head housing with no reflector modification hung at 30ft. All the other pole lights in the background are 400W HID's. Relamp interval is unknown on the HID's. Footcandle figures under the induction were 9-10 vs. 5-6 under the 400W HID. These are the bulb-type kits and I have not seen what the circline types look like, but they do put out the same lumens.


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## Lighting Retro

Looks nice, but it would have been nice to compare it with camera footage under one of the 400W lights. From a distance it is hard to compare. Kumho used to make a 100k hour T5 lamp, but took it off the market due to mass failures. They also had a (I think) 80,000 hour T8, but my understanding is that is not available either. I'd be careful with those guys.


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## shineretrofits

At some point I do need to get back there to do the 400W HID video as well for a comparison. I can't speak for the T5, but I know they still offer the 75,000 hour T8 lamps.

This induction kit has been installed for over 8 months at this point by the way. We have not heard of failures with these kits as of yet.


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## Electric_Light

By the way, this is why before and after picture is useless. Cameras do not have the dynamic range to render things as we see it. 

If the exposure is set to correctly render the color of a darker area, the lighter area will be saturated and lose all color information(R,G, B will be 255,255,255). 

If it's set to properly expose the light area, the dark item will not be rendered correctly. The top section shows exposure calibrated to the sweater, which shows it's a grey sweater.

Lower portion shows exposure calibrated to white box and you can no longer see that its a grey sweater. It looks more like black and much of the detail is lost. 

The camera is not able to show the details of both the box and sweater in one shot. 

When you look at them with your eyes, you can see the details of both, simultaneously. 

Photos can not duplicate how it appears to our eyes. You can get them closer but that requires taking multiple shots and doing post processing.


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