# Receptacles in drop-ceilings



## Jlarson

box hanger, I think


----------



## The Motts

CADDY® T-Grid Box Hanger


----------



## Wireless

http://www.erico.com/products/CADDYcfcSnpOnFixBxHngr.asp


----------



## macmikeman

The box can be supported by the hanger bars shown in the links. The conduit or cable feeding the box needs independent support from the grid. Easy to mix that one up.


----------



## B W E

macmikeman said:


> The box can be supported by the hanger bars shown in the links. The conduit or cable feeding the box needs independent support from the grid. Easy to mix that one up.


The bracket needs to be independently supported as well.... I believe with at least two seismic wires. Same idea as drop in fluorescent lights. Screwed to the grid, and tied up at two corners, ad well as strapping the conduit onto a "non-grid" seismic wire.


----------



## knowshorts

B W E said:


> The bracket needs to be independently supported as well.... I believe with at least two seismic wires. Same idea as drop in fluorescent lights. Screwed to the grid, and tied up at two corners, ad well as strapping the conduit onto a "non-grid" seismic wire.


I just use the box hanger and that's it. Zip tie the 12/2 to the nearest wire (legal or not) and call it a day. Never have been called on it. 

"seismic" wires are on fixtures for one reason only. For the safety of fireman.


----------



## B W E

knowshorts said:


> I just use the box hanger and that's it. Zip tie the 12/2 to the nearest wire (legal or not) and call it a day. Never have been called on it.
> 
> "seismic" wires are on fixtures for one reason only. For the safety of fireman.


So you don't run any ties of the bracket?


----------



## knowshorts

B W E said:


> So you don't run any ties of the bracket?


Receptacles, smokes, ceiling sensors - no. Exit signs - yes


----------



## B W E

knowshorts said:


> Receptacles, smokes, ceiling sensors - no. Exit signs - yes


314.23(d)(1)(2) says you gotta do 'em all.


----------



## knowshorts

B W E said:


> 314.23(d)(1)(2) says you gotta do 'em all.


(D) Suspended Ceilings. An enclosure mounted to structural
or supporting elements of a suspended ceiling shall be
not more than 1650 cm3 (100 in.3) in size and shall be
securely fastened in place in accordance *with either (D)(1)
or (D)(2).*
(1) Framing Members. An enclosure shall be fastened to
the framing members by mechanical means such as bolts,
screws, or rivets, or by the use of clips or other securing
means identified for use with the type of ceiling framing
member(s) and enclosure(s) employed. The framing members
shall be adequately supported and securely fastened to
each other and to the building structure.
(2) Support Wires. The installation shall comply with the
provisions of 300.11(A). The enclosure shall be secured,
using methods identified for the purpose, to ceiling support
wire(s), including any additional support wire(s) installed
for that purpose. Support wire(s) used for enclosure support
shall be fastened at each end so as to be taut within the
ceiling cavity. [/end of code section]

I would think the t-bar brackets comply with D (1)


----------



## B W E

knowshorts said:


> (D) Suspended Ceilings. An enclosure mounted to structural
> or supporting elements of a suspended ceiling shall be
> not more than 1650 cm3 (100 in.3) in size and shall be
> securely fastened in place in accordance with either (D)(1)
> or (D)(2).
> (1) Framing Members. An enclosure shall be fastened to
> the framing members by mechanical means such as bolts,
> screws, or rivets, or by the use of clips or other securing
> means identified for use with the type of ceiling framing
> member(s) and enclosure(s) employed. The framing members
> shall be adequately supported and securely fastened to
> each other and to the building structure.
> (2) Support Wires. The installation shall comply with the
> provisions of 300.11(A). The enclosure shall be secured,
> using methods identified for the purpose, to ceiling support
> wire(s), including any additional support wire(s) installed
> for that purpose. Support wire(s) used for enclosure support
> shall be fastened at each end so as to be taut within the
> ceiling cavity. [/end of code section]
> 
> I would think the t-bar brackets comply with D (1)


No.... D1 refers to framing members... I.e. WOOD. Tbar brackets fall under d2, which refers you to 300.11(a), which says you have to use tie wires at both ends of the bracket, independent of ceiling support wires.


----------



## knowshorts

B W E said:


> No.... D1 refers to framing members... I.e. WOOD. Tbar brackets fall under d2, which refers you to 300.11(a), which says you have to use tie wires at both ends of the bracket, independent of ceiling support wires.


(D) is titled Suspended Ceilings. Everything under D refers to the drop ceiling system, therefor, framing members would refer to the grid system.


----------



## RePhase277

"Framing members" refers to the ceiling framing system, i.e. T-bars.

The device used to span the grid to support boxes is generally called a bar hanger.

Also, I have used scrap pieces of steel stud and my tin snips to make a support, and screwed it to the grid.


----------



## Rockyd

knowshorts said:


> I just use the box hanger and that's it. Zip tie the 12/2 to the nearest wire (legal or not) and call it a day. Never have been called on it.
> 
> "seismic" wires are on fixtures for one reason only. For the safety of fireman.


Exactly right! 

Not being a major hack, but ya, if it's not going to be inspected, It's almost a better install to use any existing tie wires up there. especially if the drop ceiling is at 10 foot, and the hard pan is at14...:whistling2:


----------



## macmikeman

knowshorts said:


> (D) is titled Suspended Ceilings. Everything under D refers to the drop ceiling system, therefor, framing members would refer to the grid system.


This is my understanding of it as well. However from this thread comparing the two parts, it is easy to see how it could be interpreted the way BWE sees it.


----------



## B W E

macmikeman said:


> This is my understanding of it as well. However from this thread comparing the two parts, it is easy to see how it could be interpreted the way BWE sees it.


I am willing to concede that I am wrong here. I'm not surprised..... I was taught most of the commercial stuff I know but idiots and took it as gospel. After re-reading, it's very possible that the intended definition of "framing members" is for the tbar grid itself. Cool. Will save tons of time. The only risk is that the AHJ will interpret it the same way.


----------



## TOOL_5150

Thanks for the info... I think i can get the job done now. :thumbsup:


----------



## thegoldenboy

I actually had a similar discussion with a new hire at our company. He wanted to order eye lags and ceiling tie wire to support the box on bars for the ceiling lights and smoke detectors. When I told him to just shoot a tek screw into the tee, he looked at me like I had ten heads.


----------



## B4T

I would use a 2X4.. 23 3/4" long.. (2) 4" long wood blocks.. 1 1/2" 1900 box.. single device 1/2" raised 1900 box plate..

Screw the (2) small blocks to both ends of 2X4.. that raises the middle of the block up to allow the 1900 box and getting to the KO for cable..

You cut a hole for the raised cover and screw through the sides of track into 2X4 assembly..

I use that setup for hanging pendants from drop ceiling.. just you a round box instead of a 1900 box.. :thumbsup:


----------



## TOOL_5150

B4T said:


> I would use a 2X4.. 23 3/4" long.. (2) 4" long wood blocks.. 1 1/2" 1900 box.. single device 1/2" raised 1900 box plate..
> 
> Screw the (2) small blocks to both ends of 2X4.. that raises the middle of the block up to allow the 1900 box and getting to the KO for cable..
> 
> You cut a hole for the raised cover and screw through the sides of track into 2X4 assembly..
> 
> I use that setup for hanging pendants from drop ceiling.. just you a round box instead of a 1900 box.. :thumbsup:


Is that code legal though? Doesnt the bracket need its own tie wires?


----------



## B4T

TOOL_5150 said:


> Is that code legal though? Doesnt the bracket need its own tie wires?


I am attached to the ceiling grid.. no different than a lay-in fixture..

(1) Framing Members. An enclosure shall be fastened to
the framing members by mechanical means such as bolts,
screws, or rivets, or by the use of clips or other securing
means identified for use with the type of ceiling framing
member(s) and enclosure(s) employed. The framing members
shall be adequately supported and securely fastened to
each other and to the building structure


----------



## TOOL_5150

All the lay in fixtures I have seen, have their own tie wires though.


----------



## nitro71

TOOL_5150 said:


> All the lay in fixtures I have seen, have their own tie wires though.


I think there is maybe a weight requirement or size requirement for what requires seismic wire. My bottom line is if I think it would hurt someone to fall I wire it. A receptacle isn't going to fall and hurt anyone.


----------



## B4T

TOOL_5150 said:


> All the lay in fixtures I have seen, have their own tie wires though.


That might have something to do with being in an earthquake zone..


----------



## Mike in Canada

Up here you need tie wires separate from the grid-support wires, and the wires need to be arranged in such a way that in cases where the device is heavy (like a troffer) the device will swing in the direction that the supply wire comes from, so that if the ceiling support fails and the device falls onto the tie wires it won't swing away from its power supply and pull it apart and short it out.


----------



## B W E

nitro71 said:


> I think there is maybe a weight requirement or size requirement for what requires seismic wire. My bottom line is if I think it would hurt someone to fall I wire it. A receptacle isn't going to fall and hurt anyone.


you guys are talking about two different codes. One is for boxes, one is for fixtures. The code for boxes in suspended ceilings, 314.23(d)(1)&(2) says the support for the box either needs to be attached at two points to the tbar frame (1) or supported by tie wires(2). Fixtures, a different code, are required to be supported at opposite corners by tie wires.


----------



## MDShunk

If you look carefully at the gridwork, almost all of it has weight per foot that it can support. Shoot some tek screws in, and you're golden.


----------



## user4818

MDShunk said:


> If you look carefully at the gridwork, almost all of it has weight per foot that it can support. Shoot some tek screws in, and you're golden.


Speaking of that, I had an inspector tell me I needed independent support for a 4' and 8' fluor wrap. I was going to tek screw them to the grid and call it good, but he told me I had to use jack chain. Am I being a hack by doing that?


----------



## MDShunk

Peter D said:


> Speaking of that, I had an inspector tell me I needed independent support for a 4' and 8' fluor wrap. I was going to tek screw them to the grid and call it good, but he told me I had to use jack chain. Am I being a hack by doing that?


I've done that, but I tend to use that fitting Caddy makes that you scissor over the grid, and it puts a 1/4-20 stud through the back of the fixture. It's made for that.


----------



## user4818

MDShunk said:


> I've done that, but I tend to use that fitting Caddy makes that you scissor over the grid, and it puts a 1/4-20 stud through the back of the fixture. It's made for that.


Yeah, I've used those too. In this case, I can't. The ceiling was "built in place" and literally has about 2" above the tiles. They can't be lifted out. So I'm basically stuck no matter which way I turn.


----------



## B W E

MDShunk said:


> I've done that, but I tend to use that fitting Caddy makes that you scissor over the grid, and it puts a 1/4-20 stud through the back of the fixture. It's made for that.


Light fixtures are supposed to be supported independently of the grid.


----------



## MDShunk

Peter D said:


> Yeah, I've used those too. In this case, I can't. The ceiling was "built in place" and literally has about 2" above the tiles. They can't be lifted out. So I'm basically stuck no matter which way I turn.


Nah, I'm talking about these:

http://www.erico.com/products/CADDYcfcTwistOnFixSprt.asp

You don't need to lift the tile.


----------



## user4818

MDShunk said:


> Nah, I'm talking about these:
> 
> http://www.erico.com/products/CADDYcfcTwistOnFixSprt.asp
> 
> You don't need to lift the tile.


Oh! Nice. I'll have to get me some of them. :thumbsup:


----------



## MDShunk

Peter D said:


> Oh! Nice. I'll have to get me some of them. :thumbsup:


They have a similar one with a small nut instead of that big wing nut, which is intended to be for track lighting on gridwork. I used that flavor in a hair salon once.


----------



## B4T

MDShunk said:


> Nah, I'm talking about these:
> 
> http://www.erico.com/products/CADDYcfcTwistOnFixSprt.asp
> 
> You don't need to lift the tile.


They work great and are larger than the 1/2" KO.. no fender washer needed.. :thumbsup:


----------



## user4818

MDShunk said:


> They have a similar one with a small nut instead of that big wing nut, which is intended to be for track lighting on gridwork. I used that flavor in a hair salon once.


Yeah. Caddy makes lots of neat stuff like that. :thumbsup:

Since I have your attention, would it be too much to ask to change your avatar? I'm still not entirely certain I'm looking at a human being. :blink:


----------



## MDShunk

Peter D said:


> Since I have your attention, would it be too much to ask to change your avatar? I'm still not entirely certain I'm looking at a human being. :blink:


Yeah, that would be too much to ask. I'd be exchanging one ugly pic for another.


----------



## B4T

B W E said:


> Light fixtures are supposed to be supported independently of the grid.


That is a very broad statement which makes me think there is more to it than that..

So if I install a pendant light that weighs (2) pounds.. I have to chain it to steel building frame.. :blink:


----------



## user4818

B4T said:


> That is a very broad statement which makes me think there is more to it than that..
> 
> So if I install a pendant light that weighs (2) pounds.. I have to chain it to steel building frame.. :blink:


He is from CA and because of their seismic requirements they have to support everything. But yes, you are correct, his statement is too broad.


----------



## user4818

MDShunk said:


> Yeah, that would be too much to ask. I'd be exchanging one ugly pic for another.


Good point. :laughing: Maybe don't post a pic. of yourself then? :laughing:


----------



## MDShunk

Peter D said:


> Good point. :laughing: Maybe don't post a pic. of yourself then? :laughing:


You're right. I should make it a pic of someone else.

Here's what we'll do... pretend that's not a picture of me. Pretend it's a picture of someone else.


----------



## user4818

MDShunk said:


> You're right. I should make it a pic of someone else.


Just don't use one of me because it would be worse.


----------



## B W E

B4T said:


> That is a very broad statement which makes me think there is more to it than that..
> 
> So if I install a pendant light that weighs (2) pounds.. I have to chain it to steel building frame.. :blink:


Yes..... LIGHT FIXTURES ........ INDEPENDENTLY from the grid.
Nec handbook mote for 300.11a(1)(2) "wiring methods of any type and ALL luminaires are NOT ALLOWED to be supported to the support wires or tbars of a fire-rated ceiling assembly unless the assembly has been tested and listed for that use........unless ceiling grids are part of the building structure, they, too, are prohibited from furnishing support for cables and raceways. "


----------



## MDShunk

B W E said:


> Yes..... LIGHT FIXTURES ........ INDEPENDENTLY from the grid.
> Nec handbook mote for 300.11a(1)(2) "wiring methods of any type and ALL luminaires are NOT ALLOWED to be supported to the support wires or tbars of a fire-rated ceiling assembly unless the assembly has been tested and listed for that use........unless ceiling grids are part of the building structure, they, too, are prohibited from furnishing support for cables and raceways. "


What I'm getting at is that almost all gridwork is investigated for that use, and to that end, they stamp it right on the grid. Besides, the presence of a grid ceiling seldom means that this ceiling is part of the fire rated ceiling.


----------



## B4T

B W E said:


> Yes..... LIGHT FIXTURES ........ INDEPENDENTLY from the grid.
> Nec handbook mote for 300.11a(1)(2) "wiring methods of any type and ALL luminaires are NOT ALLOWED to be supported to the support wires or tbars of *a fire-rated ceiling* assembly unless the assembly has been tested and listed for that use........unless ceiling grids are part of the building structure, they, too, are prohibited from furnishing support for cables and raceways. "


I have seen tons of MC supported from the tie wires using butterfly clips.. that is standard practice..

Every lay in light comes with clips you bend over the T bar that fastens it to the grid also..

The ceiling tiles are not fire rated.. most are reclaimed newspaper..


----------



## B W E

B4T said:


> I have seen tons of MC supported from the tie wires using butterfly clips.. that is standard practice..
> 
> Every lay in light comes with clips you bend over the T bar that fastens it to the grid also..
> 
> The ceiling tiles are not fire rated.. most are reclaimed newspaper..


I have seen tons of people drive 80mph on the freeway. Don't have my book on me now but it Specifically says you cannot strap cables to t-bar structure tie wires.

And the clips manufactured onto the lay-in fixtures have a little loop built right in..... For the tie wires that are supposed to be connected to opposite corners and connected to building structure.


----------



## user4818

B W E said:


> For the tie wires that are supposed to be connected to opposite corners and connected to building structure.


They are required by many building and local codes, but not the NEC.


----------



## user4818

B4T said:


> The ceiling tiles are not fire rated.. most are reclaimed newspaper..


I think they have a "fire rating" in that they don't spontaneously combust when exposed to fire. I'm not sure, but I think a true fire rated ceiling tile is actually a piece of fire rated gypsum board with a decorative facing on it.


----------



## MDShunk

Peter D said:


> I think they have a "fire rating" in that they don't spontaneously combust when exposed to fire. I'm not sure, but I think a true fire rated ceiling tile is actually a piece of fire rated gypsum board with a decorative facing on it.


All the one's I'm familiar with are like that. See them mostly in commercial kitchens. Heavy as hell too.


----------



## dotrat103

B W E said:


> Yes..... LIGHT FIXTURES ........ INDEPENDENTLY from the grid.
> Nec handbook mote for 300.11a(1)(2) "wiring methods of any type and ALL luminaires are NOT ALLOWED to be supported to the support wires or tbars of a fire-rated ceiling assembly unless the assembly has been tested and listed for that use........unless ceiling grids are part of the building structure, they, too, are prohibited from furnishing support for cables and raceways. "


You left out the Exceptions.

300.11(A)(1) Exception: The ceiling support system shall be permitted to support wiring and equipment that have been tested as part of the fire-rated assembly

300.11(A)(2) Exception: The ceiling support system shall be permitted to support branch-circuit wiring and associated squipment where installed in accordance with the ceiling system manufacturer's instructions.


----------



## Shockdoc

You mean that you guys don't hack them like the majority of low bidders out here that simply use a gem box and madison clips. I get to fix them the right way all the time.


----------



## B W E

dotrat103 said:


> You left out the Exceptions.
> 
> 300.11(A)(1) Exception: The ceiling support system shall be permitted to support wiring and equipment that have been tested as part of the fire-rated assembly
> 
> 300.11(A)(2) Exception: The ceiling support system shall be permitted to support branch-circuit wiring and associated squipment where installed in accordance with the ceiling system manufacturer's instructions.


I didn't leave them out, I quoted the notes for those sections. Every tbar system I've ever worked in we were required to run our own ties. Good luck finding manufacturers instruction for tbar components that allow you to caddy clip you mc and flex to their support ties.


----------



## HARRY304E

dotrat103 said:


> You left out the Exceptions.
> 
> 300.11(A)(1) Exception: The ceiling support system shall be permitted to support wiring and equipment that have been tested as part of the fire-rated assembly
> 
> 300.11(A)(2) Exception: The ceiling support system shall be permitted to support branch-circuit wiring and associated squipment where installed in accordance with the ceiling system manufacturer's instructions.



Remember the 2011 mass Electrical code.

*300.11(A). *Revise this subsection as follows: 
I. Delete the third sentence in 300.11(A) which reads: "Support wires and associated fittings that provide secure support and that are installed in ad-dition to the ceiling grid support wires shall be permitted as the sole support." 
II. Revise 300.11(A)(2) to read as follows: 
*(2) Nonfire-Rated Assemblies. *Branch-circuit wiring associated with equipment that is located within, supported by, or secured to a suspended ceiling that is not an integral portion of a fire-rated floor/ceiling or roof/ceiling assembly shall be per-mitted to be supported by the ceiling support wires. 
III. Delete 300.11(A)(2) Exception.


----------



## TOOL_5150

B4T said:


> The ceiling tiles are not fire rated.. most are reclaimed newspaper..


So thats why the break so easily... Last time I broke one, I fit it back together and didnt tell anyone :laughing: How much does a 2x4 ceiling tile cost anyway? And where do you get them from?


----------



## HARRY304E

TOOL_5150 said:


> So thats why the break so easily... Last time I broke one, I fit it back together and didnt tell anyone :laughing: How much does a 2x4 ceiling tile cost anyway? And where do you get them from?



You can get them at blowes...:laughing:


----------



## TOOL_5150

HARRY304E said:


> You can get them at blowes...:laughing:


thats such a simple answer... i think you are lying...:laughing:


----------



## thegoldenboy

TOOL_5150 said:


> So thats why the break so easily... Last time I broke one, I fit it back together and didnt tell anyone :laughing: How much does a 2x4 ceiling tile cost anyway? And where do you get them from?


I just did that same exactly thing. :whistling2: Had the corner of one let go and didn't know it. Finished up in that opening, replaced the tile, pointed it out to my Journeyman saying that I don't remember the corner being gone but I don't think I damaged it at all. Got about two steps away and there it was on the ground, picked it up and stuck it back up there, it looked beautiful.


----------

