# Powering up equipment



## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

What movie was it where the guy ran out the end of one of those things? Ace Ventura?

That s**t was funny :thumbsup:


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

It certainly isn't something that should be done by two apprentices.


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## tkb (Jan 21, 2009)

I'm glad I'm not flying to AB!!!


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

kaboler,

Show your post to your boss i think a raise is in order..


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

Sounds like you two had it handled !


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

HARRY304E said:


> kaboler,
> 
> Show your post to your boss i think a raise is in order..


Then slap the sh!t out of him for letting you power it up without a jman.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

I think you screwed up by starting the stuff at all. Run power to it, verify proper voltage, and your job is done. Commissioning is an extra charge OR someone else's job.


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## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

What you did was stupid and irresponsible. You shouldn't have been flipping breakers without a jman around period.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

I don't know about you kaboler.,,

If you try that kind of Merde in European side you will be out of the job before we can say "Recevez le fait de baiser d'ici " { get the F out of here } 

The golden rules what you did power up without the Jorneyperson or lé Master person and megger it before you ever lit it up first time that is one our golden rules we have to run the megger first time before we can able turn it on few case it did save our arse!!!

Merci,
Marc


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Never EVER power up someone else's stuff. Run your wires and you're done. Someone else can figure out if it works right or not.


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

Je ne sais pas ce qu'est un diviseur de transformateur avec onglets sont.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Yeah unless it's your job to get power to it *and *commission it, which won't be an apprentices job like ever, don't just go turning it on.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Smoke , although expensive sometimes, always educational.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

kaboler said:


> ...
> So I go up there, and we meter it out, and I see that the transformer is putting out 160 volts and 60 volts. That sounds like a neutral problem yes?
> 
> We pull the transformer apart, and apparently, from the factory (the whole unit was built elsewhere) they didn't wire up the neutral to the ground, so thereby no neutral.
> ...


Assuming that they actually ran the "neutral" to the loads, the lack of a grounding connection should not cause any problems. Yes, you will have strange voltages from the hots to ground, but the loads will only see the hot to "neutral" voltage and should not care about the hot to ground voltage.


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> Assuming that they actually ran the "neutral" to the loads, the lack of a grounding connection should not cause any problems. Yes, you will have strange voltages from the hots to ground, but the loads will only see the hot to "neutral" voltage and should not care about the hot to ground voltage.


There was no neutral run to the grounds.

Here goes. It's 347/600 stepping down to 120/240. H1 and H2 are the primary, and according to the chart, if I want 120/240, I tie X2 and X3 together to create the neutral, and X1 and X4 are the 120s. Well, they tied X2 and X3 together, but didn't take the neutral to the neutral bar.

The whole unit was premade and prewired (outside of the main feeds for a lot of big equipment, which was my job. #3/0 stranded festooning cable hahahaha. Youch.


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

MDShunk said:


> Never EVER power up someone else's stuff. Run your wires and you're done. Someone else can figure out if it works right or not.


You're right, but since he was an apprentice with minimal electrical experience, I got permission from their office to help out after stuff started going bad.

He was told to power stuff up too, from their head office.

Who would have thought that premade stuff was wired so poorly?


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

frenchelectrican said:


> The golden rules what you did power up without the Jorneyperson or lé Master person and megger it before you ever lit it up first time that is one our golden rules we have to run the megger first time before we can able turn it on few case it did save our arse!!!


Seems like "megger"ing it is the way to go, but it's such a complex system, all pre-made at the factory, it took us all by suprise. It should have been tested at the factory, not by us on the field.

I'll have to develop a 150 page checklist for these guys before they turn their stuff on hahaha.


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

HARRY304E said:


> kaboler,
> 
> Show your post to your boss i think a raise is in order..


Yeah, I just want to be "apprentice of the month" again, that'll be good for me hahahaha.

But thank you.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

kaboler said:


> There was no neutral run to the grounds.
> 
> Here goes. It's 347/600 stepping down to 120/240. H1 and H2 are the primary, and according to the chart, if I want 120/240, I tie X2 and X3 together to create the neutral, and X1 and X4 are the 120s. Well, they tied X2 and X3 together, but didn't take the neutral to the neutral bar.
> ....


 You are telling me two different things. First you tell my that they didn't bond the neutral to ground, then you tell me that they did not make a connection between X2/X3 to the neutral bar. They are not the same thing. The first, while not being correct, will not cause any problems with most loads as they will still see 120 hot to neutral, the second will cause problems as the loads will see the voltages that you measured.


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

kaboler said:


> What is YOUR system of turning on complex systems, and how much do you trust premade complex systems?


https://netforum.avectra.com/eweb/s...&prd_key=f96e4e34-e92f-431f-aa0c-c34a2a822c47

*ANSI/NETA Standard for Acceptance Testing Specifications *
*for Electrical Power Equipment and Systems 2009*

The NETA Acceptance Testing Specifications was developed for use by those responsible for assessing the suitability for initial energization of electrical power equipment and systems and to specify field tests and inspections that ensure these systems and apparatus perform satisfactorily, minimizing downtime and maximizing life expectancy.

Use the ANSI/NETA ATS-2009 as a guide when specifying and performing the necessary tests to ensure that your electrical systems and apparatus not only meet your project specifications, but that the manufacturer of the equipment supplied you with a product that will perform safely and reliably for many years to come.


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

Seems to me this has potential disaster all over it. If the qc for that manufacturer lets these kind of mistakes out the door what else did they miss. If I were you I would strongly recommend someone with more knowledge then yourself go over the whole thing before allowing the public to use it.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

kaboler said:


> Seems like "megger"ing it is the way to go, but it's such a complex system, all pre-made at the factory, it took us all by suprise. It should have been tested at the factory, not by us on the field.
> 
> I'll have to develop a 150 page checklist for these guys before they turn their stuff on hahaha.


You megger the feeders going to the system equipment. Never put a megger on control panel wiring unless you like paying to replace stuff, or you are absolutely sure you have the other end of the conductors disconnected from whatever electronic thing it is connected to.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

I would not change up factory wiring on a unit like that. If it smoke tests they are going to blame you. They have factory techs for equipment like that. I would change wiring while on the phone with a rep and with the owner present.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Mac.,

Merci for typing this one and I will address to kaboler .,,


There are serveral legit methold to do the proper testing before power up the equiment.

Zog have one good link which you can review the produrce on this one.

For my side in France it a automatique megger for us as long we keep remind ourself to watch the electronique contoller or PLC or whatever it is on and do not want to smoke it out.

And There are few case the factory can screw up the equiment connection or something else along the way so expect that from time to time that why you have to keep your " eyes " sharp for any unexpected issue.

Merci,
Marc


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## Mike in Canada (Jun 27, 2010)

kaboler said:


> There was no neutral run to the grounds.
> 
> Here goes. It's 347/600 stepping down to 120/240. H1 and H2 are the primary, and according to the chart, if I want 120/240, I tie X2 and X3 together to create the neutral, and X1 and X4 are the 120s. Well, they tied X2 and X3 together, but didn't take the neutral to the neutral bar.


 So this is a delta/wye transformer? Is this a three phase 600D/208Y or is it a little single-phase control transformer? If it's a 208Y then if the center wasn't grounded you'll have unreliable voltages from phase to center, but the phase to phase voltage will still be spot-on.

I do a lot of work in gravel pits where the previous work might have been done by.... anyone. I mean *anyone*. And it's been lying in the rain in a boneyard for 8 years before they decided they suddenly needed it again. I'm pretty careful about comissioning. If it can be powered up from remote then I'll do that. Like, with the feeding disconnect (far away) shut off, turn on the local disconnect then go and turn on the feed. This way you've got an extra set of fuses between you and the mayhem if something goes awry. When doing this, though, you have to make sure that nobody is near the machine when you're putting power to it from remote. It could do... anything. 
As a general statement, an electrical panel/jbox/splitter will contain an arc flash from the amount of power that it was built to handle, providing that all of the screws are done up. There might be some leakage around the edges, but the bulk of it will be contained, and the door won't go flying off. Again, this is providing that everything is buttoned up in 'like new' condition.


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

Mike in Canada said:


> So this is a delta/wye transformer? Is this a three phase 600D/208Y or is it a little single-phase control transformer? If it's a 208Y then if the center wasn't grounded you'll have unreliable voltages from phase to center, but the phase to phase voltage will still be spot-on.
> 
> I do a lot of work in gravel pits where the previous work might have been done by.... anyone. I mean *anyone*. And it's been lying in the rain in a boneyard for 8 years before they decided they suddenly needed it again. I'm pretty careful about comissioning. If it can be powered up from remote then I'll do that. Like, with the feeding disconnect (far away) shut off, turn on the local disconnect then go and turn on the feed. This way you've got an extra set of fuses between you and the mayhem if something goes awry. When doing this, though, you have to make sure that nobody is near the machine when you're putting power to it from remote. It could do... anything.
> As a general statement, an electrical panel/jbox/splitter will contain an arc flash from the amount of power that it was built to handle, providing that all of the screws are done up. There might be some leakage around the edges, but the bulk of it will be contained, and the door won't go flying off. Again, this is providing that everything is buttoned up in 'like new' condition.


 Do you think a first year should be doing a job like this, on his own?

He should be watching and learning from a journeyman!

For his own, and others safety.


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

Mike in Canada said:


> As a general statement, an electrical panel/jbox/splitter will contain an arc flash from the amount of power that it was built to handle, providing that all of the screws are done up. There might be some leakage around the edges, but the bulk of it will be contained, and the door won't go flying off. Again, this is providing that everything is buttoned up in 'like new' condition.


What are you basing this on? Unless it is an arc rated enclosure there is no design or testing requirements for an enclosure to ontain an arc flash. And believing that it will can be very dangerous.


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

Zog said:


> What are you basing this on? Unless it is an arc rated enclosure there is no design or testing requirements for an enclosure to ontain an arc flash. And believing that it will can be very dangerous.


When I'm working with above 120/208, I usually check enclosures to see if they're designed to handle the hazards. Of course, it's a pain in the butt closing it, flipping a breaker on, then opening it and checking the voltage, and closing and repeating, but I certainly don't want to get me or my coworkers hurt.


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

Mike in Canada said:


> So this is a delta/wye transformer? Is this a three phase 600D/208Y or is it a little single-phase control transformer? If it's a 208Y then if the center wasn't grounded you'll have unreliable voltages from phase to center, but the phase to phase voltage will still be spot-on.


Unfortunately it's a 240/120 little transformer (10kva) and when he first started it up and checked the voltage, he checked the phase to phase and didn't do phase to ground. He left and checked "bridge" controls to find out they weren't working....

Needless to say, he sure learned how important it was to check phase to ground (making sure ground is ground hahaha) and I got to teach him a lot about stuff.

I felt bad for him too. He's a nice guy and he took everything really personally, but he was instructed to start powering up from bosses. I told him (like others here have suggested) that he's an apprentice and I'm an apprentice, and it wasn't our call, we just did what we were told.


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

oldtimer said:


> Do you think a first year should be doing a job like this, on his own?
> 
> He should be watching and learning from a journeyman!
> 
> For his own, and others safety.


Where I'm working, I'm re-wiring transformers, doing control wire work, running big fat cabtire (huge festooning cable and more!), terminating them in panels and disconnects....

The union guys working inside have their first years painting connectors and couplings and fetching supplies.

How much are they learning? How much am I learning?

And define "direct supervision". I've done a lot of this stuff before.


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

Zog said:


> https://netforum.avectra.com/eweb/s...&prd_key=f96e4e34-e92f-431f-aa0c-c34a2a822c47


I was hoping for a read. I wonder if my boss has books like that. Good idea, ty!!!


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

kaboler said:


> When I'm working with above 120/208, I usually check enclosures to see if they're designed to handle the hazards.... opening it and checking the voltage...


 I think you've been misled. The voltage in the enclosure has nothing to do with ability of the enclosure to withstand an arcing fault.

-John


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

Last time I worked in an airport, a govt job, comissioning by others was speced.


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## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

kaboler said:


> Where I'm working, I'm re-wiring transformers, doing control wire work, running big fat cabtire (huge festooning cable and more!), terminating them in panels and disconnects....
> 
> The union guys working inside have their first years painting connectors and couplings and fetching supplies.
> 
> ...


 You are either the greatest troll the world has ever seen, or a dumbass. 
I'm still on the fence.


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## tkb (Jan 21, 2009)

mattsilkwood said:


> You are either the greatest troll the world has ever seen, or a dumbass.
> I'm still on the fence.


I don't think he is a troll. 
He doesn't know any better, he is from Canada.


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## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

tkb said:


> He doesn't know any better, he is from Canada.


 Well, at least the hospital bill will be paid for.:laughing:


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

mattsilkwood said:


> You are either the greatest troll the world has ever seen, or a dumbass.
> I'm still on the fence.


Well, I'm not a troll. You Americans are always so black and white about everything. With us or against us. Republican or democrat. Fight fight fight fight fight.

It's a shame that most of you pass up on an opportunity to teach, except a few here, and jump right to insults and worthless talk.

Anyway, I'm done at the airport for the time being. I even got to do some RJ45 heads on some cat5e cables. Poor American working with me is missing his 4th of July celebration. I feel bad for him. But he did get to watch me do an RJ45!!!

I had to cut the heads off of the old ones that came from the factory because they weren't long enough. They had some nice crimpers and a colour-code guideline. They were using AT&T's colours. Odd.


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

tkb said:


> I don't think he is a troll.
> He doesn't know any better, he is from Canada.


Let me know if you can find a first year as good as me in the USofA. Or Canada.

If you were an electrical business owner, and you said to me, "I want a panel here, a transformer here, and another panel here (with the disconnect for the transformer here), you leave me to it. In 1, maybe 2 days, (probably 1 if I don't have to go through walls) it'll be done to code. You can inspect it.

Wouldn't you be happy to have a guy like me? Getting paid a first year apprentice rate?


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## TundraJD (Jun 20, 2011)

kaboler said:


> Let me know if you can find a first year as good as me in the USofA. Or Canada.
> 
> If you were an electrical business owner, and you said to me, "I want a panel here, a transformer here, and another panel here (with the disconnect for the transformer here), you leave me to it. In 1, maybe 2 days, (probably 1 if I don't have to go through walls) it'll be done to code. You can inspect it.
> 
> Wouldn't you be happy to have a guy like me? Getting paid a first year apprentice rate?


I agree with you on this as a first year I got thrown balls deep into all sorts of stuff by my journeymen and am very thankful for it as a third year now I'm running large commercial projects and my own truck nothing wrong with being put in situations long as you can handle it CEC standards state that long as your deemed capable you can do it! Good for you bud keep up the good work!

Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

You know, you Canadians have always struck me as being top of the line in ability. You must all come from some really good blood lines. :thumbsup:

No fooling. I mean it. You Canadian guys are something.


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## TundraJD (Jun 20, 2011)

macmikeman said:


> You know, you Canadians have always struck me as being top of the line in ability. You must all come from some really good blood lines. :thumbsup:
> 
> No fooling. I mean it. You Canadian guys are something.


Thanks a lot I appreciate it! I've always took pride in my work, was bred into me since day one and it's always nice to get a little recognition! :thumbsup:

Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


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## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

kaboler said:


> Well, I'm not a troll. You Americans are always so black and white about everything. With us or against us. Republican or democrat. Fight fight fight fight fight.
> 
> It's a shame that most of you pass up on an opportunity to teach, except a few here, and jump right to insults and worthless talk.
> 
> ...


 :laughing: Black and white we may be but an apprentice still has no business throwing switches and rewiring a factory enclosure. It sounds like you bonded a control transformer, which may or may not be a bad thing. I don't have enough information to tell and I'm betting that you didn't either. 
If it was a control transformer and you bonded the wrong side of it, then you created an unsafe condition. 
Let's just say that is what you did.
Now let's say there is a ground fault, instead of blowing a fuse whatever is on that line, relay, plc input, starter, is going to engage. So now do you understand why I say what I say?

I don't know you from Adam, you may very well be a great apprentice, but you don't have the experience yet to make those judgement calls shooting from the hip.

Just a little inside info, most of the time the guys that are constantly bragging about how badass they are, aren't.


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## Mike in Canada (Jun 27, 2010)

oldtimer said:


> Do you think a first year should be doing a job like this, on his own?
> 
> He should be watching and learning from a journeyman!
> 
> For his own, and others safety.


 It sounds to me like his actual job, originally, was to hang some festoon cable and hook it up. No commissioning was involved. The job may have evolved after it began, but it began innocently enough.
Should he be watching and learning? I suppose that would be best, but as long as he's done this particular work before (and presumably trained to do it at that time) then I'm not offended.
I'm kind of the wrong guy to ask. I'm self-taught. I worked briefly with a couple of journeymen before challenging the C of Q (maybe a week or two) and one was an alcoholic and knew *nothing* relevant to anything we did, and the other showed promise but I only worked with him for a few days. So, to sum up, I'm not a person who believes that one *has* to learn from a journeyman.
I'd never even knowingly *met* a millwright before getting my millwright license, but I'd been doing the work for ages, and I did do a formal apprenticeship for that one, so I've got a C of Q and a C of A for millwright, but my journeyman was a tool and die maker and I was already doing the job before the apprenticeship started. I continued doing the job and after the hours were in I wrote the test. I consider myself to be decently knowledgable in both trades despite not having a traditional apprenticeship in either.
Kaboler made a good point that he's learning a whole lot faster than some other apprentices, because he's learning by doing instead of having to learn by osmosis. There are drawbacks to that, but there are benefits as well. He's got more oversight than I had, so who am I to complain? He's irritatingly cocky, but he's probably a couple of decades younger than me, and that's a common illness in the young.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

I'm not gonna pretend like I didn't learn by just doing and maybe blowing some stuff up, cause I did..... but now I (kind of unfortunately) have to prevent anyone working for us from doing the same cause that crap is gonna cost me money.


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## Mike in Canada (Jun 27, 2010)

Matt, that was an excellent post. The only thing that really bothered me about this thread was the fact that the airport folks asked Kaboler to fix it in the first place. It seemed like maybe they didn't know he had relatively limited experience. Hubris is the downfall of many a man.


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## 76nemo (Aug 13, 2008)

kaboler said:


> Well, I'm not a troll. You Americans are always so black and white about everything. With us or against us. Republican or democrat. Fight fight fight fight fight.
> 
> It's a shame that most of you pass up on an opportunity to teach, except a few here, and jump right to insults and worthless talk.
> 
> ...


 
Without having to read the rest of this thread, and knowing I've taken up for you more than once, I'll cut you off here. For one, you've shown plenty more than willing you want to learn, that I appreciate, that I respect. What you're missing is people trying to teach you black and white. I mean that with thee utmost respect kaboler. I appreciate you as being anything else than being a lazy ****. 

For one, it's been made clear we've all made mistakes, that's just a frickin' given for the most part. What you missed was the fact that some duties are meant for certain people, one of which you should of been answering to. I don't think anyone made a gross jam against you that you weren't qualified, more so is the fact you're still learning. With thee utmost respect, the attitude of you being the best first year might get you placed in a ****in' coffin. I say that with the best intent towards yourself and your family. I'll continue to stand by your side because of your ambition to learn, but that kind of confidence might wind you up dead. You won't be any good to us then.

Be patient,.............as much as some of these guys might like to howl, they have a point, a point you should learn to appreciate and respect. One day you'll be the old prick, just kidding. If you're willing to post here kaboler, you have to be willing to suck it up. You know that by now. While you're amongst some ole miserable ****s, you can take the time to listen to what they have to say, and appreciate they took the time and effort to set you straight in the first place.

As far as I am concerned, you owe me for one jelly doughnut:thumbsup:


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

mattsilkwood said:


> You are either the greatest troll the world has ever seen, or a dumbass.
> I'm still on the fence.


Amen. I still can't believe any electrician is dumb enough to post the things he says


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

Well, I wouldn't guess at how to wire a transformer. I phoned the people to find out if they wanted me to fix it, and they did. We pulled out the drawings they had, confirmed that the transformer drawing that they had was incorrect.

I asked them if they could phone the transformer manufacturer and see how exactly it should be wired up, and they said "no" (it didn't come with a guide) at which point my only question was if they wanted me to run the neutral to the neutral bar, OR run the neutral to the neutral bar and ground the neutral bar.

I learned that here, not to be scared to phone the customer support people if you can. So while I take a lot of flak, I will always listen. Poor you guys who hate me!

And TY for the positives, it's nice to see that some of you don't think I'm a troll. A bit annoying, yes, but a troll? No.


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## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Amen. I still can't believe any electrician is dumb enough to post the things he says


 He's not an electrician, he's a cubby.:laughing:


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## 76nemo (Aug 13, 2008)

mattsilkwood said:


> He's not an electrician, he's a cubby.:laughing:


 
He's also willing to learn. That I can appreciate.


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## qckrun (May 18, 2009)

We just got some 21KV Swgr on my Job and opened it up after getting it delivered in the pouring rain. Upon opening it we find numerous things wrong with it from bolts/screws/washer all over the place to units not attached to each other to buss bars not attached correctly. I am starting to wonder if they actually torqued it down and didn't just mark it up that way. 

Eaton is a pile of **** if I ever have the choice I would never get equipment from them ever.


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## Mike in Canada (Jun 27, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> I'm not gonna pretend like I didn't learn by just doing and maybe blowing some stuff up, cause I did..... but now I (kind of unfortunately) have to prevent anyone working for us from doing the same cause that crap is gonna cost me money.


 That's a good point. When I have a helper or apprentice I won't let them to half the crap that I did regularly when learning.


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

I found this video of Kaboler online...enjoy!!:laughing::laughing::laughing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjmmjXGwarU&feature=related


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

mxslick said:


> I found this video of Kaboler online...enjoy!!:laughing::laughing::laughing:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjmmjXGwarU&feature=related


I like the chubbier guy in the last frame, hahahahaha.

Yeah, you know? That's totally me. For shame! I have a general tendency to put off a gay vibe too, and most people stand around and look at me like an idiot. But I (me) have fun!!


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

qckrun said:


> Eaton is a pile of **** if I ever have the choice I would never get equipment from them ever.


How did you know the transformer was Eaton? Did I say that? Damn! All they did was make the xformer.


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> I'm not gonna pretend like I didn't learn by just doing and maybe blowing some stuff up, cause I did..... but now I (kind of unfortunately) have to prevent anyone working for us from doing the same cause that crap is gonna cost me money.


Mike in Canada is right. I didn't blow anything up. I only told the guy who worked for their company that he should 1) don't have the panel cover off, and don't stand directly in front of stuff, when he's turning things on for the first time, and 2) voltage-to-ground is vitally important (he was doing phase-to-phase testing) and I explained to him the loose/missing neutral and how it can wildly vary the voltage (while phase to phase it looks good).

One guy on this site made a good point. I'm still basically a pipetrician, not an electrician, but I'm getting a good handle on the basics.

Plus, I won't be a first year apprentice for long. I'll be challenging the test soon, as soon as my wife gets better.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

kaboler said:


> How did you know the transformer was Eaton? Did I say that? Damn! All they did was make the xformer.


Ummm duh, his Eaton reference was to his own equipment. I wouldn't let you work on my lawnmower, you can't even follow a conversation.


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Ummm duh, his Eaton reference was to his own equipment. I wouldn't let you work on my lawnmower, you can't even follow a conversation.


Or maybe he works at the airport and I know him and he's screwing with me. All geniuses are paranoid.


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

kaboler said:


> Mike in Canada is right. I didn't blow anything up. I only told the guy who worked for their company that he should 1) don't have the panel cover off, and don't stand directly in front of stuff, when he's turning things on for the first time, and 2) voltage-to-ground is vitally important (he was doing phase-to-phase testing) and I explained to him the loose/missing neutral and how it can wildly vary the voltage (while phase to phase it looks good).
> 
> One guy on this site made a good point. I'm still basically a pipetrician, not an electrician, but I'm getting a good handle on the basics.
> 
> Plus, I won't be a first year apprentice for long. I'll be challenging the test soon, as soon as my wife gets better.


 A first year can write the test???????

Do you know something, or someone, the rest of us don't??:blink:


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

oldtimer said:


> A first year can write the test???????
> 
> Do you know something, or someone, the rest of us don't??:blink:


Not the journeyman test, if that's what you mean. I'd still need 3000 some hours probably to even qualify. My boss follows the guidelines under the apprenticeship agreement. I'll be a 2nd year apprentice soon. Maybe I won't take so much heat here when I'm a 2nd year.

The people at work say I shouldn't waste my time on first year school because I'm well beyond it, and I bought the modules from NAIT and I'm basically done going through them.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

kaboler said:


> Or maybe he works at the airport and I know him and he's screwing with me. All geniuses are paranoid.


Dude, you have issues


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## Mike in Canada (Jun 27, 2010)

oldtimer said:


> A first year can write the test???????
> 
> Do you know something, or someone, the rest of us don't??:blink:


 Maybe he means he'll write the exemption test for first year school?

I wrote all of the exemption tests for millwright. Never spent a day in-class for that trade, but still have my Certificate of Apprenticeship. Nor did I spend a day in class for electrical, for that matter.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

kaboler said:


> Today I was working at an airport helping power up these walkways, bridge units, and the equipment that goes with it. You know, the thing that moves around to line up the exit door with the terminal.
> 
> My journeyman was elsewhere, and the cool guy responsible (an apprentice mechanical/electric guy) is an apprentice too.
> 
> ...


The grounding of an electrical system, as far as I know, will not affect the operation of the system. Maybe I am wrong, and sometimes I am...just ask my wife, but any electrical device will operate on the proper difference of potential that it is rated for. Grounding of the system has no influence on the operation of the system as far as the basic operation goes.


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## al13nw4r3LC76 (Apr 6, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> The grounding of an electrical system, as far as I know, will not affect the operation of the system. Maybe I am wrong, and sometimes I am...just ask my wife, but any electrical device will operate on the proper difference of potential that it is rated for. Grounding of the system has no influence on the operation of the system as far as the basic operation goes.


Unless some hack is using the ground as a neutral :whistling2:


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

al13nw4r3LC76 said:


> Unless some hack is using the ground as a neutral :whistling2:


It can't be done.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

al13nw4r3LC76 said:


> Unless some hack is using the ground as a neutral :whistling2:


Then it's a grounded conductor, not a grounding conductor.


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## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

kaboler said:


> 2) voltage-to-ground is vitally important (he was doing phase-to-phase testing) and I explained to him the loose/missing neutral and how it can wildly vary the voltage (while phase to phase it looks good).


 That statement right there is proof that what you got yourself into is over your head.
Voltage to ground is absolutely meaningless in an ungrounded system. 
Why is this you may ask? Because you have no reference to ground, That is all you are doing when you bond a transformer, giving it a refence to ground. 

Like I said before you may very well be a fantastic apprentice, key word being apprentice, you need to stay out of what you don't know before you F yourself up.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

kaboler said:


> Not the journeyman test, if that's what you mean. I'd still need 3000 some hours probably to even qualify. My boss follows the guidelines under the apprenticeship agreement. I'll be a 2nd year apprentice soon. Maybe I won't take so much heat here when I'm a 2nd year.
> 
> The people at work say I shouldn't waste my time on first year school because I'm well beyond it, and I bought the modules from NAIT and I'm basically done going through them.


The world is rough...isn't it? If you think that you may be above it all there will always be people to "knock you down". You have to have patience. I can tell that you want to know more but the real world is that you can't just jump in and be a "KNOW it ALL". This industry needs smart people like you but you need to be more humble. That's just the way it is. I am VERY smart, but you don't see me saying it.


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## Mike in Canada (Jun 27, 2010)

mattsilkwood said:


> That statement right there is proof that what you got yourself into is over your head.


 That's pretty harsh. There should be virtually no difference in potential between neutral and ground, so your complaint is based only on semantics. It's not empty, but it's pretty light-weight. I'm sure we all take similar or worse linguistic liberties on a regular basis.


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## Mike in Canada (Jun 27, 2010)

kaboler said:


> Not the journeyman test, if that's what you mean. I'd still need 3000 some hours probably to even qualify. My boss follows the guidelines under the apprenticeship agreement. I'll be a 2nd year apprentice soon. Maybe I won't take so much heat here when I'm a 2nd year.


 You're not taking heat because you're a first year so much as because of the way you come across. Since you're a genius, you'll be more that familiar with hubris and the fate of the tragic hero. You're trying to be a hero, and you're getting the gears because of it. Don't try to be a hero. Add some humility and you won't be getting dumped on as often. It will still happen, because people remember things, but it will happen less often.



> The people at work say I shouldn't waste my time on first year school because I'm well beyond it, and I bought the modules from NAIT and I'm basically done going through them.


 I didn't take *any* of the schooling for electrical, but I don't recommend that approach. Go and do the schooling. You'll meet guys your age doing the same kind of thing, and it will help you to get a better grip on what the broader job is like. The value of the schooling is not so much what's in the books, but what you hear about what the job is really like. If you're bound and bent to skip first year then make sure you take second and third. The same guys who said you're 'well past' first year school will say the same about second and third. Joining an established class for second year can be a hardship. I have taken one year of trade school, and it was second year for another trade - one that I can just about guarantee you've never heard of. Anyway, I had written the exemption for first year and gone to second year. The other guys in the class already had their textbooks and knew the teacher and the general 'flow' of things. They also knew that the first day was the exemption test for the math segment. They also knew that half of the test seemed to require converting decimal degrees to and from hours/minutes/seconds, so they all had calculators that would do it for them. I didn't. I had to write the test and do all of the conversion long-hand. I was still the only person who passed it, but the point is that you're kind of a fifth wheel when you show up in second year. You get credit for the hours of schooling, you get a change of pace, and you get to meet a bunch of other apprentices whose experiences may be of interest to you.

The choice is, of course, yours to make.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Mike in Canada said:


> That's pretty harsh. There should be virtually no difference in potential between neutral and ground, so your complaint is based only on semantics. It's not empty, but it's pretty light-weight. I'm sure we all take similar or worse linguistic liberties on a regular basis.


 
You're wrong there. His statement was correct.


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## Mike in Canada (Jun 27, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> You're wrong there. His statement was correct.


 Take the original statement (regarding voltage from phase to ground) and substitute the word 'neutral' for 'ground' and see if you still disagree with it.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Mike in Canada said:


> You're not taking heat because you're a first year so much as because of the way you come across. Since you're a genius, you'll be more that familiar with hubris and the fate of the tragic hero. You're trying to be a hero, and you're getting the gears because of it. Don't try to be a hero. Add some humility and you won't be getting dumped on as often. It will still happen, because people remember things, but it will happen less often.
> The choice is, of course, yours to make.


In my experience, customers (and people in general) would rather deal with a nice, personable less knowledgable worker, than an arrogant know it all. Show me a nice knowledgable worker and I’ll put him on the payroll in a hot second.

I have stated this before, Kaboler would NOT work for me. I do not put up with attitudes from anyone me included and his personality, approach to life, working demeanor what ever if it is the same as he post here, well he would be back at the hall, with a pink slip “NOT ELIGIBLE FOR REHIRE”, which would sit well in his apprentice review.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

mattsilkwood said:


> That statement right there is proof that what you got yourself into is over your head.
> Voltage to ground is absolutely meaningless in an ungrounded system.
> Why is this you may ask?* Because you have no reference to ground, That is all you are doing when you bond a transformer, giving it a refence to ground.*



Agree with this



Mike in Canada said:


> That's pretty harsh. *There should be virtually no difference in potential between neutral and ground*, so your complaint is based only on semantics. It's not empty, but it's pretty light-weight. I'm sure we all take similar or worse linguistic liberties on a regular basis.


What ? Isn't Mike wrong here ?


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

brian john said:


> I have stated this before, Kaboler would NOT work for me. I do not put up with attitudes from anyone me included and his personality, approach to life, working demeanor what ever if it is the same as he post here, well he would be back at the hall, with a pink slip “NOT ELIGIBLE FOR REHIRE”, which would sit well in his apprentice review.


That's because you're a jerk. I've met hundreds of dead-serious, one-upping, trying to knock everyone down types like you before, and while you might have all the knowledge and skills anyone could ever ask for, you're still a boring stick-in-the-mud.

Or maybe it's because you've been an electrican too long, and you're just an old dog that gets offended when the young pup is having just too much fun.

That's basically it. I'm having too much fun at work, and a lot of you are bitterly resentful about it.

I work at a place that has a plumbing division, and when I was talking crap to my boss (which we do, because he's an awesome, easy-going guy, and NOT a tightass) he said, "you're fired" and the plumbing boss standing next to him said, "you're hired".

Then they talked about how I could have 3 tickets and teach at NAIT.

So throw all the stuff you think you know about me out the window. Here, in this forum, they're just words. But in the field, you'd be shocked. Maybe literally hahahaha.


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

kaboler said:


> That's because you're a jerk. I've met hundreds of dead-serious, one-upping, trying to knock everyone down types like you before, and while you might have all the knowledge and skills anyone could ever ask for, you're still a boring stick-in-the-mud.
> 
> Or maybe it's because you've been an electrican too long, and you're just an old dog that gets offended when the young pup is having just too much fun.
> 
> ...


 WOW!!!! Nothing like blowing your own horn.


If I were as smart as you, I would be a multimillionaire. :laughing:

If Bull Sh1t were roses, you'd be a garden.


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

dronai said:


> Agree with this



What's a refence? 




> What ? Isn't Mike wrong here ?


You don't know?

This particular transformer in question doesn't have a balanced load.

Might not matter because neutrals seem to be created at the transformer, and the load carried on the neutral would not NEED to be grounded, but probably nice to be grounded in case .2 volts squirts out or something.

If it were ungrounded, the neutral, would that be defined under Canadian Code as an "isolated system" which would require Orange Brown Yellow phase taping? Because I've never seen an isolated system before. I hear they're in hospitals mostly. Hopefully some more education is coming.


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

oldtimer said:


> WOW!!!! Nothing like blowing your own horn.
> 
> 
> If I were as smart as you, I would be a multimillionaire. :laughing:
> ...


Hehehe totally!!! Poor me, so arrogant! I need to be knocked down a peg or two. Sometimes I am, and I like it, because it's an amazing learning experience.

Something about being embarassed because of a stupid mistake that really fires up the learning curve.


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## Mike in Canada (Jun 27, 2010)

dronai said:


> [/b]
> What ? Isn't Mike wrong here ?


 The transformer in question is a delta-wye. Proper installation includes bonding the neutral to ground. Since they're connected they're going to be at the same potential. In this case - within this transformer - neutral and ground are virtually equivalent from a voltage-measuring perspective.


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## Mike in Canada (Jun 27, 2010)

kaboler said:


> Hehehe totally!!! Poor me, so arrogant! I need to be knocked down a peg or two. Sometimes I am, and I like it, because it's an amazing learning experience.
> 
> Something about being embarassed because of a stupid mistake that really fires up the learning curve.


 The problem with this attitude is that you might irritate people enough that those who would have helped you are no longer interested.


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## al13nw4r3LC76 (Apr 6, 2009)

kaboler said:


> That's because you're a jerk. I've met hundreds of dead-serious, one-upping, trying to knock everyone down types like you before, and while you might have all the knowledge and skills anyone could ever ask for, you're still a boring stick-in-the-mud.
> 
> Or maybe it's because you've been an electrican too long, and you're just an old dog that gets offended when the young pup is having just too much fun.
> 
> ...


Damn cocky first year cubs.


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## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

Mike in Canada said:


> That's pretty harsh. There should be virtually no difference in potential between neutral and ground, so your complaint is based only on semantics. It's not empty, but it's pretty light-weight. I'm sure we all take similar or worse linguistic liberties on a regular basis.


On a grounded system then you are correct, but we are talking about an ungrounded system so potetial to ground means nothing, because it has no reference to ground.



Mike in Canada said:


> Take the original statement (regarding voltage from phase to ground) and substitute the word 'neutral' for 'ground' and see if you still disagree with it.


We are not talking about a neutral, we are talking about a ground. If he were rewireing my equipment I would expect him to know the difference. Wouldn't you?



kaboler said:


> That's because you're a jerk. I've met hundreds of dead-serious, one-upping, trying to knock everyone down types like you before, and while you might have all the knowledge and skills anyone could ever ask for, you're still a boring stick-in-the-mud.
> 
> Or maybe it's because you've been an electrican too long, and you're just an old dog that gets offended when the young pup is having just too much fun.
> 
> ...


So now Brian John is a jerk?:laughing:
You have got major issues dude.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

Mike in Canada said:


> The transformer in question is a delta-wye. Proper installation includes bonding the neutral to ground. *Since* they're connected they're going to be at the same potential. In this case - within this transformer - neutral and ground are virtually equivalent *from a voltage-measuring perspective.*


 
yes, but on the secondary side, pull that neutral off the lug and hold onto it, bonded and all, and you will feel the difference in voltage (one hand on steel) actually you and kaboler together, with-in the transformer.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

kaboler said:


> [/color]
> What's a refence?
> 
> 
> ...


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

I would hire you in a minute Kaboler.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

kaboler said:


> [/color]
> What's a refence?
> 
> 
> ...





Engineering terminology


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## Mike in Canada (Jun 27, 2010)

mattsilkwood said:


> On a grounded system then you are correct, but we are talking about an ungrounded system so potetial to ground means nothing, because it has no reference to ground.


 That's what was missing, yes. The original statement, though, was that it was a problem for the voltage to ground to be varying. You took exception, and I was just pointing out that the only real issue with that statement was that he said 'ground' instead of 'neutral'. In other words... it's semantics in the case of this delta-wye transformer that hadn't had the neutral bonded.


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## Mike in Canada (Jun 27, 2010)

dronai said:


> yes, but on the secondary side, pull that neutral off the lug and hold onto it, bonded and all, and you will feel the difference in voltage (one hand on steel) actually you and kaboler together, with-in the transformer.


 The neutral is bonded on the secondary side. Disconnecting the neutral changes the whole dynamics of the situation, though it would still be inert as long as there was no unbalanced load on the system.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

Trying to get on the same page as you. OK unbalanced you say, so it's a wye system for your 120V loads. Then you have unbalanced loads, right ? Which equals current in the neutral.

I just reread what you wrote, and I agree. Your saying the same thing as I wrote.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Mike in Canada said:


> The transformer in question is a delta-wye. Proper installation includes bonding the neutral to ground. Since they're connected they're going to be at the same potential. In this case - within this transformer - neutral and ground are virtually equivalent from a voltage-measuring perspective.


Only at the transformer, as you move away from the transformer and if the neutral is carrying load, then there is VD in the neutral. I have measured as much as 15 VAC between the neutral and ground in a grounded system.


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## electricalperson (Jan 11, 2008)

kaboler said:


> That's because you're a jerk. I've met hundreds of dead-serious, one-upping, trying to knock everyone down types like you before, and while you might have all the knowledge and skills anyone could ever ask for, you're still a boring stick-in-the-mud.
> 
> Or maybe it's because you've been an electrican too long, and you're just an old dog that gets offended when the young pup is having just too much fun.
> 
> ...


if your having fun as a first year apprentice somethings wrong:laughing:


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

gold said:


> I would hire you in a minute Kablower.


Just so I can work that attitude out of you.


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

gold said:


> Just so I can work that attitude out of you.


Not something sexual is it?


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## al13nw4r3LC76 (Apr 6, 2009)

kaboler said:


> Not something sexual is it?


A first year is supposed to be very open to trying new things for the foreman.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

al13nw4r3LC76 said:


> A first year is supposed to be very open to trying new things for the foreman.


Like what?


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## al13nw4r3LC76 (Apr 6, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> Like what?


Did all the trauma from your first year as a cub make you forget? :whistling2:


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## 76nemo (Aug 13, 2008)

kaboler said:


> That's because you're a jerk. I've met hundreds of dead-serious, one-upping, trying to knock everyone down types like you before, and while you might have all the knowledge and skills anyone could ever ask for, you're still a boring stick-in-the-mud.
> 
> Or maybe it's because you've been an electrican too long, and you're just an old dog that gets offended when the young pup is having just too much fun.
> 
> ...


 

I stuck up for you because it seemed you really wanted to learn. I appreciated that because you could be the opposite, and be a bum.

I checked back on this discussion and found this post. I'll tell you what, I wish you and your family the best man, but this post had me change my mind. You're going about this all wrong. You have very well qualified people here giving you advice, and you're acting like a little school boy, childish, unappreciative, and bold headed. You come on a *PUBLIC *forum and act like you have ALL the answers. Why even weigh in?

When someone offers you help, you best appreciate it and jot it down. You have so much ahead of you it'd make your head spin, and you come off _like this?_

Come on man..............................


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## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

Kablower, sounds like even your boss and the "plumbing boss" are making fun of you. You're just too high on your horse to realize it.


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## randas (Dec 14, 2008)

This guy is full of ****. In Canada the fines for letting an apprentice do things like this are enough to ruin a small company. His boss would have to be wrecked on glue to send him to an airport of all places alone.


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## 76nemo (Aug 13, 2008)

jza said:


> Kablower, sounds like even your boss and the "plumbing boss" are making fun of you. You're just too high on your horse to realize it.


 
Calling him "Kablower" isn't going to get him to sit in his seat and have him understand his approach is all wrong, it's going to fuel a certain fire that does no good to himself or the rest of us.

Cut the BS partner........


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

76nemo said:


> Calling him "Kablower" isn't going to get him to sit in his seat and have him understand his approach is all wrong, it's going to fuel a certain fire that does no good to himself or the rest of us.
> 
> Cut the BS partner........


Unfortunately Mr. jza also has frequent fits of the same attitude. 

Both he and kaboler need to grow up and start acting like adults instead of mouthy know it all teenagers. 

There are a lot of people here with literally millions of man-hours of experience who are willing to share their experiences and knowledge, but if the recipients (like our two Canadian lads) keep acting like a**holes then soon NO ONE is gonna be willing to help them out.


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## TundraJD (Jun 20, 2011)

mxslick said:


> Unfortunately Mr. jza also has frequent fits of the same attitude.
> 
> Both he and kaboler need to grow up and start acting like adults instead of mouthy know it all teenagers.
> 
> There are a lot of people here with literally millions of man-hours of experience who are willing to share their experiences and knowledge, but if the recipients (like our two Canadian lads) keep acting like a**holes then soon NO ONE is gonna be willing to help them out.


Hey now just cause their Canadian Shouldn't apply to why their wrecking it for everyone I'm Canadian and proud to be, at the same time I truly do appreciate the insights and info I get from anyone on this site! Hence why I post my own questions or say my insight to something on someone else's thread! As a matter of fact if you go in the canadian site on here I have a thread i would really love some insight into

Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

TundraJD said:


> Hey now just cause their Canadian Shouldn't apply to why their wrecking it for everyone I'm Canadian and proud to be, at the same time I truly do appreciate the insights and info I get from anyone on this site! Hence why I post my own questions or say my insight to something on someone else's thread! As a matter of fact if you go in the canadian site on here I have a thread i would really love some insight into
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


Now don't misread my post as a "bash Canadians" rant...trust me there are several people from here in the US who are just as guilty and are on my ignore list for that very reason. 

The reference to the two Canadian lads was referring specifically to the two guilty parties. :laughing:


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## TundraJD (Jun 20, 2011)

mxslick said:


> Now don't misread my post as a "bash Canadians" rant...trust me there are several people from here in the US who are just as guilty and are on my ignore list for that very reason.
> 
> The reference to the two Canadian lads was referring specifically to the two guilty parties. :laughing:


Lol fair enough just clarifying is all :laughing: :thumbsup:

Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Chesterfield or sofa? Napkin or serviette?


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## Mike in Canada (Jun 27, 2010)

randas said:


> This guy is full of ****. In Canada the fines for letting an apprentice do things like this are enough to ruin a small company. His boss would have to be wrecked on glue to send him to an airport of all places alone.


 It happens, though. I see it all the time. The excuse is that the journeyman/master is 'only a phone call away'.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

macmikeman said:


> Chesterfield or sofa?


 
EXCUSE ME. it is called a Divan (SP?)

That is what my grandmother from Revere Mass. called it.


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## LogicDB (Feb 12, 2010)

"The people at work say I shouldn't waste my time on first year school because I'm well beyond it, and I bought the modules from NAIT and I'm basically done going through them."



As electricians, we should embrace our training - class room time and field time. It's not easy being new at anything, but this trade humbles the most seasoned guys on occasion. 

No offense intended to the writer - this stuff doesn't just come to us overnight, we work for it.


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## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

brian john said:


> EXCUSE ME. it is called a Divan (SP?)
> 
> That is what my grandmother from Revere Mass. called it.


My grandmother calls it a Davenport.


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## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

mxslick said:


> Unfortunately Mr. jza also has frequent fits of the same attitude.
> 
> Both he and kaboler need to grow up and start acting like adults instead of mouthy know it all teenagers.
> 
> There are a lot of people here with literally millions of man-hours of experience who are willing to share their experiences and knowledge, but if the recipients (like our two Canadian lads) keep acting like a**holes then soon NO ONE is gonna be willing to help them out.


I'll paypal your broke ass one hundred of your low valued US dollars right now if you find one post made by myself tooting my own horn even half as much as Kaboler does.

$100.


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## al13nw4r3LC76 (Apr 6, 2009)

jza said:


> I'll paypal your broke ass one hundred of your low valued US dollars right now if you find one post made by myself tooting my own horn even half as much as Kaboler does.
> 
> $100.


Found one. Go ahead and pm me for my PayPal address. Thanks bud :whistling2::whistling2::blink::whistling2:


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

jza said:


> I'll paypal your broke ass one hundred of your low valued US dollars right now if you find one post made by myself tooting my own horn even half as much as Kaboler does.
> 
> $100.


You don't necessarily blow your horn but virtually every post you make is either negative or has smart-ass attitude. Keep going though so I can enjoy the day you get banned. :thumbsup:


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

MF Dagger said:


> My grandmother calls it a Davenport.


I haven't heard that term in years. 
Thanks. 
Reminds me of my grandparents house in Sheepshead Bay.


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## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

mxslick said:


> You don't necessarily blow your horn but virtually every post you make is either negative or has smart-ass attitude. Keep going though so I can enjoy the day you get banned. :thumbsup:


This is true.

Well there isn't a way to ban someone permanently so I'm not very worried!


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