# 1 phase vs 3 phase curcuit panel



## Eq electric (Feb 2, 2019)

Hey everyone, I simply can't wrap my head around the difference between a single phase and a 3phase curcuit panel, and when it is applied. I have been working in residential for a long time and would like to get some insite if possible, thank you all again in advance


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Are you an apprentice? Have you been to school yet?


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Eq electric said:


> Hey everyone, I simply can't wrap my head around the difference between a single phase and a 3phase curcuit panel, and when it is applied. I have been working in residential for a long time and would like to get some insite if possible, thank you all again in advance


Ahh oui .,,, 

very simple the single phase panel typically have two hot conductors with netural while three phase panel do have *three* hot conductors in the panel.

Be aware the three phase voltage some will not be same as single phase 
typicial USA voltage:
208Y120
240D120 
480Y277 
208Y
240D
480D or Y 

Note Y = wye ( useally have netural there)
D = Delta ( most case no netural but some do have 4 wire delta system with netural with oddball line to netural voltage I will cover that later if you need to know ) 

some super large residentail home do use three phase supply all it depending on POCO specs what they can offer on that.


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## Signal1 (Feb 10, 2016)

Where are you from? 

Where did you go to school to be an electrician, that didn't teach you about three phase wiring?

We can better help you if you fill out your profile, and tell us more about experience on the introductions thread.


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## Eq electric (Feb 2, 2019)

Signal1 said:


> Where are you from?
> 
> Where did you go to school to be an electrician, that didn't teach you about three phase wiring?
> 
> We can better help you if you fill out your profile, and tell us more about experience on the introductions thread.


I never went to school I started 4 years ago with a master electrician.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

https://www.electriciantalk.com/f3/attention-new-members-required-profile-fields-258186/

Thanks in Advance


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Eq electric said:


> Signal1 said:
> 
> 
> > Where are you from?
> ...


Here by your 4th year you have been to school twice and are almost an electrician. Do they have a mandatory school for apprentices where you are?


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## Signal1 (Feb 10, 2016)

Eq electric said:


> I never went to school I started 4 years ago with a master electrician.


Well that's a start. 

Are you in the USA? if so what area, there many programs to help you forward your career in this industry, and the jobs will be there if you're qualified.

The long and short of it is you should understand single phase first which you see in a residential panel, the two hots operate 180 deg. out of phase to supply 240 V power to small motor and heating loads. A single phase power supply operating at 60 Hz reaches zero 60 times per second. Not so efficient but ok for smaller applications.

Three phase has a third hot, all three operate at 120 deg overlapping waveform so power remains constant, that is more efficient and is used in primarily commercial and industrial settings for higher power consumption.

This is a brief simplified explanation and as @frenchelectrician stated there are different types of three phase power.


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## Eq electric (Feb 2, 2019)

Thank you so much for the information I certainly appreciate it. I am in Canada and more specifically in Ontario. So when it comes to 1 phase which is seen in residential what a 3phase in a house just be an overkill in that case? If so is that the reason why they use 3 phase in commercial due to heavy usage such as restaurants and larger appliances?


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Eq electric said:


> Thank you so much for the information I certainly appreciate it. I am in Canada and more specifically in Ontario. So when it comes to 1 phase which is seen in residential what a 3phase in a house just be an overkill in that case? If so is that the reason why they use 3 phase in commercial due to heavy usage such as restaurants and larger appliances?


Are you registered as an apprentice in Ontario? Have you been to school yet and what levels have you done so far?


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Tesla came up with three-phase power. He loved the number 3 in the first place.

It's also known as poly-phase power.

It is quite more efficient to generate power in a 3-phase alternator.

Indeed, the 'generator' in your car is a 3-phase alternator that uses internal diodes to convert asynchronous 3-phase power into pretty low ripple DC power at 13.8 Volts. 

( The connected battery hugely reduces ripple. )

There are a TON of books on the issue. Visit a library or use a search engine.

BTW, 60 Hertz power goes to 0 volts at twice the frequency - so 120 times a second.


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## glen1971 (Oct 10, 2012)

eddy current said:


> Here by your 4th year you have *been to school twice *and are almost an electrician. Do they have a mandatory school for apprentices where you are?


Here in Alberta, you would have been to school 3 times.


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## Eq electric (Feb 2, 2019)

No I'm not registered, the only chance I got to getting my journeyman papers is if I challenge the exam.


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## Eq electric (Feb 2, 2019)

telsa said:


> Tesla came up with three-phase power. He loved the number 3 in the first place.
> 
> It's also known as poly-phase power.
> 
> ...


Thanks again for the help, it seems like a very great and supportive platform to be apart of,and I'm glad to be apart of it now.


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## glen1971 (Oct 10, 2012)

Eq electric said:


> No I'm not registered, the only chance I got to getting my journeyman papers is if I challenge the exam.


Find a company to indenture you and get your apprenticeship.. A company might credit you some time, and you can challenge your first year test..

IMO challenging your ticket with no schooling on any of the theory will lead to a disaster.. If you're in doubt, read post #1...


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## The_Modifier (Oct 24, 2009)

Eq electric said:


> would like to get some insite if possible


Try filling out your profile- *AS PER THE SIGN UP AGREEMENT*. :wink::wink:


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## Eq electric (Feb 2, 2019)

The_Modifier said:


> Eq electric said:
> 
> 
> > would like to get some insite if possible
> ...


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

Eq electric said:


> The_Modifier said:
> 
> 
> > Try filling out your profile- *AS PER THE SIGN UP AGREEMENT*.
> ...


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

If you did all the cables in your user picture, then , I shall consider teaching you about 3 phase wiring. Otherwise.............


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Eq electric said:


> No I'm not registered, the only chance I got to getting my journeyman papers is if I challenge the exam.


You can’t challenge the exam, whoever told you that you can is lying to you. Don’t believe me? Contact the MTCU and ask them. Challenging is for people who have proof of training from other countries, not for guys who work illegally by not being registered. You must be able to provide proof of experience in order to challenge. Where is your proof of hours working with an electrician going to come from?


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Eq electric said:


> I never went to school I started 4 years ago with a master electrician.


This “master” should have his head put on a stick. Quit this guy.

Edit: get your hours then quit this guy.


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## Eq electric (Feb 2, 2019)

eddy current said:


> You can’t challenge the exam, whoever told you that you can is lying to you. Don’t believe me? Contact the MTCU and ask them. Challenging is for people who have proof of training from other countries, not for guys who work illegally by not being registered. You must be able to provide proof of experience in order to challenge. Where is your proof of hours working with an electrician going to come from?


the electrician whom I work for has already written my letter letter and signed it with proof our my hours. so if what you are saying is true then I am in big trouble because i just wasted 4.5 years of my life dedicating myself to becoming a licence electrician. if true what would you do in my position? my wife is about to have our first child in 3 weeks and i have a mortgage to pay.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Eq electric said:


> eddy current said:
> 
> 
> > You can’t challenge the exam, whoever told you that you can is lying to you. Don’t believe me? Contact the MTCU and ask them. Challenging is for people who have proof of training from other countries, not for guys who work illegally by not being registered. You must be able to provide proof of experience in order to challenge. Where is your proof of hours working with an electrician going to come from?
> ...


Contact the ministry. (MTCU) They have a package they will give you to apply to challenge the c of q. It has all the info you need. 
But like others have suggested, without the schooling and only residential experience, it won’t be easy. Maybe think about writing the residential license. 

That letter from the journeyman is proof that the boss is not following the rules. MOL might be interested in that!


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

@Eq electric, get 20 posts. I will send you a PM


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## Signal1 (Feb 10, 2016)

99cents said:


> This “master” should have his head put on a stick. Quit this guy.


I agree. I don't know Canada stuff, but I can't help thinking that this employer should have been more attentive to this situation and help guide his employee to a path to licensure.

We just had another young contributor to this forum graduate school and is well on her way to a great career.

That's the stuff we really like to read.

I wish this OP well based on is situation. I hope it all works out.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

Eq electric said:


> I never went to school I started 4 years ago with a master electrician.


Don't let the guys who say you're worthless without jumping through all the government required hoops scare you. I have absolutely zero official training/apprenticeships/classes or anything else. I'm pretty sure my posts here prove that one can indeed excel in this trade with no formal training.

Ok, rant over.....now back to the original question.......

Generally speaking, a house would wire pretty much the same way whether it's single phase or a 120/208 Y 3 phase. Each phase will be 120 to neutral and there will be '220' from any phase to any other phase.

The '220' is where it's different. With a single phase system, the '220' will be 240. With a 3 phase Y system, it'll be 208. The only real difference is that range burners will produce 25% less heat. The oven will work the same as it maintains a temperature. The clothes dryer will take a bit longer but not much. 

If the 3 phase system is a 120/240 delta, it's a whole other ballgame. Think of this system as a single phase with the 3rd phase added on. Trouble is, the 3rd 'added' phase is 208 to neutral. The advantage here is that with the delta system, there's 240 from any phase to any other phase. 

My own house has a 120/208 Y service. The main reason is because most of my shop equipment is 3 phase and I didn't want to use a phase converter. 

The only noticeable difference is that the range burners will get red-hot but not cherry red. This has very little effect on cooking, they still produce plenty of heat. 

Don't feel bad because you don't understand 3 phase systems.....there was a time when every one of us understood absolutely nothing about them. You're doing the right thing by asking questions here, it's a great place to learn. You just have to wade through some muck sometimes in order to find the pot of gold........lol.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Jeeze Cut the kid some slack.

He has 4 years behind him that he can't get back. SO, if I was him I talk to his boss about schooling or I would find a company that would get him into an approved apprenticeship.

In the meantime, this forum can be a wealth of knowledge and do a google search about anything you like.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

For all the new guys reading this, understand what the requirements are in your area/country/county/state/whatever for licensing, for while it may not have much to do with your actual level of skills, it would be nice to get that license to be able to work alone or unsupervised and get paid better.


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## Signal1 (Feb 10, 2016)

brian john said:


> Jeeze Cut the kid some slack.
> 
> He has 4 years behind him that he can't get back. SO, if I was him I talk to his boss about schooling or I would find a company that would get him into an approved apprenticeship.
> 
> ...


I agree.

That's why I think more guys are trying to be helpful here.


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

It's a package deal. IMO it's far better to get the apprentice schooling & be trained by your employer as an apprentice. The other road is just being a helper & doing it all on your own, so, you will be behind most of those who went through an apprenticeship.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

The practical hands on experience makes you what you will be. The schooling and licensing in your area or lack of it comes with the trade, many of them and it just is part of life.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

The OP's 'master electrician' hasn't taught him much... which is a cheat right there. 

I'd bet that the 'master' is largely ignorant, himself, and knew that if he yapped about 3-phase anything it'd soon be obvious that he was talking out of his ears... or some such.

For practical commercial wiring, 3-phase lays out very, very much like residential circuits.

The single biggest difference turns on how 3 hots relate to a single neutral. 

This corn fuses dudes who've spent thousands of hours roping 14-2 Romex. 

I don't see you skipping an apprenticeship. Officialdom just won't stand for it.

Plus, you'll crash and burn until your knowledge level is drastically higher.

A proper apprenticeship equates to a four-year, perhaps five-year, college degree. 

It's no small thing you just pick up on the job.

Here and there you'll run into master electricians that did it on their own. 

That typically means that they are autodidacts of extraordinary ability -- near geniuses and above. 

Is that you?


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Guys he is in Canada. You might be able to work in electrical in some states with no license or schooling, but here you can not be an electrician without the schooling and licensing. 

More specifically, in Ontario you can not work in electrical at all unless your registered as an apprentice or licenced. His boss knows this and like many other scab bosses, he is using this young man for cheap labour with no intention of getting him his licence.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

> telsa said:
> 
> 
> > The OP's 'master electrician' hasn't taught him much... which is a cheat right there.
> ...



It is ME, I never served an apprenticeship, I am self-taught I did work with a few good men starting in about year 6-7 (by then I had all my masters) to have held me back.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

The licensing and schooling is a means to an end. Position yourself for the best chance of success possible.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

A pretty fair number of licensed electricians I knew in Oregon, some of whom had been journeymen for well over 10 years, had never seen a 3 phase panel and knew very little about 3 phase systems. 

They were pretty good at roping houses and obviously, that's all they had ever done. 

The OP is in a similar situation, except he wants to learn. 

I don't know about anyone else but if someone wants to expand his horizons, I will help him as much as I possibly can.


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

Tough crowd, huh? Don't let them get to you, we all had to learn somewhere. Most of us still are, and the ones who think they know it all......don't. That's why we're here. Anyhow, availability, and type of load typically dictate the type of power supplied. There's lots of variables. And for a full understanding, lots of reading.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I don’t do a lot of commercial, nor do I fear what I don’t know. I either get a grip on it or get someone else to do it properly. Still learning too.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

I never sat in an electrical class in my life. My mom says I'm the best electrician on either side of the continental divide.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

CoolWill said:


> I never sat in an electrical class in my life. My mom says I'm the best electrician on either side of the continental divide.


Only the best electrician she knows. :biggrin:


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

eddy current said:


> Guys he is in Canada. You might be able to work in electrical in some states with no license or schooling, but here you can not be an electrician without the schooling and licensing.
> 
> More specifically, in Ontario you can not work in electrical at all unless your registered as an apprentice or licenced. His boss knows this and like many other scab bosses, he is using this young man for cheap labour with no intention of getting him his licence.





micromind said:


> I don't know about anyone else but if someone wants to expand his horizons, I will help him as much as I possibly can.


Micromind, if you want to help this guy, read Eddy's post.

This guy is getting screwed right now. The ONLY way to get his license is to become registered as an apprentice.

I have no problem teaching him as well, but if we really want to help him, getting his boss to register him is worth more at this point than anything else.

We can start a thread on Gob't blah blah blah ... but unfortunately , this is the reality for this guy.

So, let's get him signed up, and then answer any question he may have.

Jebus ... I'm going back to the game now :biggrin:


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

emtnut said:


> Micromind, if you want to help this guy, read Eddy's post.
> 
> This guy is getting screwed right now. The ONLY way to get his license is to become registered as an apprentice.
> 
> ...


I agree completely but in the interim, if he asks questions, I'm going to give him the best answers I can.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

micromind said:


> I agree completely but in the interim, if he asks questions, I'm going to give him the best answers I can.


I agree this person can't get those 4 years back and he should try to get registered but in the meantime, let's help the guy out. 

I meet many electricians that served an apprenticeship and I wonder what to F they were doing in class because it seems many were sleeping.

I was in the trade two years before I even knew there was an electricians union. I never heard of or knew of schools for apprentices.


The company I worked for used up helpers and spit them out that I stayed as long as I did might be questionable. But it was what it was..

Tried several times after my initial two years to get in the IBEW no luck, and did try ABC but I took off 6 weeks to travel the country and that was a no-no, so I was put out. Figured I had done fairly well on my own and kept going down that path.


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## Gnome (Dec 25, 2013)

eddy current said:


> But like others have suggested, without the schooling and only residential experience, it won’t be easy. Maybe think about writing the residential license.


I don't know about Ontario's tiered licencing but here in BC it's all or nothing and I can pretty much guarantee the OP would fail his challenge exam if all he's got is four years residential experience. The stuff he doesn't know about motors and services alone will probably stop him from getting the required 70%.

He needs to go to school for the required (in BC) 40 weeks or be the worlds absolute best student and some how self teach himself the entire curiculum. The course work is *hard*. Something like 50% of 1st year apprentices flunk out of 1st year and something like 20% of 4th years writing the Red Seal exam fail on their first attempt.

*If *he can get indentured and *if *he can get his indenture holder to recognise his hours then he'll be able to collect EI while going to school and get sort of re-imbursed for his school costs. 



brian john said:


> It is ME, I never served an apprenticeship, I am self-taught I did work with a few good men starting in about year 6-7 (by then I had all my masters) to have held me back.


That's great and all but in Canda it is illegal to do electrical work for hire without being either a recognised journeyman or an indentured apprentice. That is obviously on his boss not indenturing him but it highlights how in Canada today there realy isn't a path to a journeyman ticket without serving an apprenticeship. The OP story of being taken advantage of sadly isn't rare but I report business operating this way when I find out about them (usually we only hear about it though when the unidentured apprentices are left flapping in the wind when the company closes because they owe money all over town).


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## jelhill (Nov 11, 2018)

Eq electric said:


> I never went to school I started 4 years ago with a master electrician.


You started with a master electrician?? and he has taught you nothing more than pulling Romex?!


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

jelhill said:


> You started with a master electrician?? and he has taught you nothing more than pulling Romex?!


Because his boss is using him only for cheap labour and has no intention of training him to become a red seal electrician. If he did, he would have signed him up properly and legally so he could go to the mandatory schooling and learn.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Some of this is on the OP.

How could you be in the trade for years and not know the lay of the land?

Denial?


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

telsa said:


> Some of this is on the OP.
> 
> How could you be in the trade for years and not know the lay of the land?
> 
> Denial?


Yes but what is the option? Quit? It’s not easy to get an apprenticeship here and when you finally get in but the contractor keep promising that they will sign you up but doesn’t, then what? 

There is no easy answer and unfortunately there are many in this situation.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Gnome said:


> I don't know about Ontario's tiered licencing but here in BC it's all or nothing and I can pretty much guarantee the OP would fail his challenge exam if all he's got is four years residential experience. The stuff he doesn't know about motors and services alone will probably stop him from getting the required 70%.
> 
> He needs to go to school for the required (in BC) 40 weeks or be the worlds absolute best student and some how self teach himself the entire curiculum. The course work is *hard*. Something like 50% of 1st year apprentices flunk out of 1st year and something like 20% of 4th years writing the Red Seal exam fail on their first attempt.
> 
> ...


Of course, regulate the crap out of everything and still end up with just your average Joe Electrician. Why because governments want to stick their taxing ass into everything they can.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

If you study and or take test prep classes, I’m sure you can probably pass the exam. I rarely have or had anything to do with transformers or motors and still passed. I remember guys who couldn’t figure out a three way switch unless it was in pipe. There going to be things on that test that you don’t do every day, but if you apply yourself and study, you can pass. Whether you are any good in reality is a separate issue altogether.


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## Sparky0311 (Jul 19, 2018)

Not sure about canada but you more than likely won't find any houses with 3 phase power anywhere.


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## Martine (Jan 26, 2018)

I know Ontario is different than Quebec in regards to schooling, but I do know that you need schooling either way.

The guys gave you great advice on this one, my heart hurts for you a bit if you spent the last while thinking you were nearly a journeyman. I'd follow what Eddy told you in regards to calling the right people to get some answers if nothing else. 

Good luck!


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## Bcec (Jul 29, 2018)

The electrical trade in B.C. is a regulated trade.A person is not allowed to even work without being a registered journeyman or a bona fide signed up apprentice.I as a contractor could not legally hire this guy no matter his 4 years experience.I thought the rest of Canada the same rules applied.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Bcec said:


> The electrical trade in B.C. is a regulated trade.A person is not allowed to even work without being a registered journeyman or a bona fide signed up apprentice.I as a contractor could not legally hire this guy no matter his 4 years experience.I thought the rest of Canada the same rules applied.


Of course they do but that doesn’t mean there aren’t many working for cash or labelled as a labourer.

I have met many who did this for years on a promise to one day get registered. If the ministry came on site they were told to drop the electrical tools and pick up a broom or shovel.


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## Naman Verma (Mar 22, 2018)

Hey There
first of all check for the load in the house if there is some heavy load like more than 4 kilowatt , then you should go for the three phase otherwise single phase is sufficient as single phase is used for the light loads and whereas three phase is used for the heavy loads
All the best....


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## Funksparky (Nov 8, 2017)

Some Master Electrician! - man, all those days at work, lunch breaks (did you get any?), time in the truck- he never took the time to educate? I consider training an important part of my job when I have an appy with me. I like explaining things and theory etc. Keeps my own mind fresh. But then I like to talk...Electrician Talk...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

Naman Verma said:


> Hey There
> first of all check for the load in the house if there is some heavy load like more than 4 kilowatt , then you should go for the three phase otherwise single phase is sufficient as single phase is used for the light loads and whereas three phase is used for the heavy loads
> All the best....


This is the US & Canada not India. :sad:


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## Kevin (Feb 14, 2017)

eddy current said:


> You can’t challenge the exam, whoever told you that you can is lying to you. Don’t believe me? Contact the MTCU and ask them. Challenging is for people who have proof of training from other countries, not for guys who work illegally by not being registered. You must be able to provide proof of experience in order to challenge. Where is your proof of hours working with an electrician going to come from?





99cents said:


> This “master” should have his head put on a stick. Quit this guy.
> 
> Edit: get your hours then quit this guy.





Eq electric said:


> the electrician whom I work for has already written my letter and signed it with proof our my hours. so if what you are saying is true then I am in big trouble because i just wasted 4.5 years of my life dedicating myself to becoming a licence electrician. if true what would you do in my position? my wife is about to have our first child in 3 weeks and i have a mortgage to pay.


There is kind of a loophole in this, however it will take you about a year. Register as an apprentice now with the current employer and get as many hours as they will let you (when I registered, they only let me get 2500 hours out of approximately 5000 hours). Keep working for him for about 6 months (just enough for the MCTU to forget about you.) then go get a job for someone else. Get the current/Ex employer to write a letter stating your hours, and get the new sponsor to get these hours acknowledged with him on your new agreement. After this is all done, the ministry will likely send you notices to go do your schooling.

I'm kind of going through the same thing right now. I had about 4000 hours on paper when I started working for this new company. I got the old employer to write a letter and got 8128 hours resisted with this new company. For some reason, they (the ministry) will not transfer your hours automatically when you change sponors, you have to get the hours acknowledged.

Hope this helps.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

Naman Verma said:


> Hey There
> first of all check for the load in the house if there is some heavy load like more than 4 kilowatt , then you should go for the three phase otherwise single phase is sufficient as single phase is used for the light loads and whereas three phase is used for the heavy loads
> All the best....


4 kW isn't even 20 amps at 240 volts.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Kevin_Essiambre said:


> There is kind of a loophole in this, however it will take you about a year. Register as an apprentice now with the current employer and get as many hours as they will let you


Problem here Kevin is this guy has been working for the same employer for almost 5 years and was never registered. The employer must register him, he can’t register himself and If it hasn’t happened already, it’s not going to. This employer is just stringing him along as cheap labour.


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## Kevin (Feb 14, 2017)

eddy current said:


> Problem here Kevin is this guy has been working for the same employer for almost 5 years and was never registered. The employer must register him, he can’t register himself and If it hasn’t happened already, it’s not going to. This employer is just stringing him along as cheap labour.


Honestly if I were him I would tell the employer to register me or I'm going to work for someone else and try to get the hours "transfered" (accepted? Not sure of the right word here). Once that's done I would call the ministry... but that's me.

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


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## Naman Verma (Mar 22, 2018)

It was just an example basically three phase is used for the heavy loads... and so on...


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

The reason I use three phase is because that's what the panel is , when I get there........


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