# bonding of pool water



## threewire (Jan 28, 2008)

Have you read 680.26?


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## kram4yoo (Mar 6, 2008)

yes. Is there something I'm missing?


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

At the risk of sounding like a jerk (again) I have to ask if this post is for real???? This cannot be a serious question. :blink:

On the chance that this is for real I'll go along. :whistling2:

_*680.26
(C) Equipotential Bonding Grid* The parts specified in 680.26(*B*) shall be connected to an equipotential bonding grid......

_
Sorry, but NO WHERE in 608.26(B) does it mention the water itself. There are five items, and water is NOT one of them.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

kram4yoo said:


> I have also talked to an electrical instructer. He claims that it is the pool manufactures responsability to supply the bonding device.


Completely and utterly, mostly, false.

It is almost NEVER the "manufacturer's" responsibility to bond, or provide the bond for, a manufactured pool. There are also never provisions for bonding built into the pool design. We typically do ALL the bonding on site and as required. 
Accessories such as ladder cups, diving board bases, railing cups, etc., all DO have provisions for bonding. By this I mean they have built in lugs or screws to accept the #8 bond wire. It is still our responsibility to get the bond wire there and to connect it.

All this said, _some_ pool _*installers*_ will do the bonding. I NEVER trust them though.


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## kram4yoo (Mar 6, 2008)

I know it sounds crazy.

In the 2008 NEC there is a new section that was added to article 680. 
*680.26(C) Pool water. *Pool water shall have an electrical connection to one or more of bonded parts described in 680.26(B).where none of the bonded parts is in direct connection with the pool water, the pool water shall be in direct contact with an approved corrosion- resistant conductive surface that exposes not less than 9 inches2 of surface area to the pool water at all times.


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## goose134 (Nov 12, 2007)

Wouldn't a ladder count as a bonded part in contact with the water? Sounds like this is meant for pools that don't have any bonded parts in the water.


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## kram4yoo (Mar 6, 2008)

Its an above ground pool. It has a pvc ladder.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Well smack me silly. I don't have a 2008 yet as I have no use for it.
Yeah, I know I can go online and look at it, but I've never even heard of this change so I never thought to look.

This sounds too stupid to be real. :jester:
Add this one to the list of stupid 2008 changes.


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## kram4yoo (Mar 6, 2008)

want to talk stupid. 
680.26B2b wants you to bond the unpaved surface with-in 3ft of the inside pool wall. That includes the lawn. They state if there is no grid, you must install a#8 bare solid copper conductor 18 to 24 in. from the inside pool wall and 4 to 6 in. below the surface. 
I have to ask. Has there really been that many people getting shocked?


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## SEMPER FI (Mar 4, 2008)

I looked it up. 680.26(C) says: *Pool Water. *An intentional bond of a minimum conductive surface area of 5806(square mm's) (9 square inches) shall be installed in contact with the pool water. This bond shall be permitted to consist of parts that are required to be bonded in 680.26(B). I underlined the parts that I think are relevant. I would tell the inspector to look closely at 680.26(B) (1), vinyl pool liners are not conductive and isn't that only thing that comes in contact with the water in an above ground pool since it has PVC ladders. If he is being a butt hole about it I would fight him to the end on this one. It's crazy that you should have to bond ANYTHING that is not conductive. If he still won't pass it then I would ask him to tell me what to do to satisfy him. He probably don't know what to do himself. Hope this helps you.

OOHRAH
SEMPER FI


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

> At the risk of sounding like a jerk (again)


I just could not respond I was laughing to hard at the OP. SORRY but I mean........


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## kram4yoo (Mar 6, 2008)

If you people are going to respond. *Please look at the 2008 NEC. *
*All of article 680.26 has changed.*


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

kram4yoo said:


> If you people are going to respond. *Please look at the 2008 NEC. *
> *All of article 680.26 has changed.*


You probably should have mention that your question was in regards to the 2008 NEC. Not many states have adopted the 2008 NEC yet so most of the members on this forum are answering out of the 05 or earlier versions of the NEC.

Chris


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

HEY my aplogy just read the part STILL LAUGHING just not at the OP, but looking into it 680.26 (C).


The basic thougth of bonding the water seems on face silly. 

With an above ground pool, is this a vinyl liner? I am not sure this section applies BUT will look into it...

Does this qualify as a permanetly insytalled pool? have you read the section regarding storable pools.


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## kram4yoo (Mar 6, 2008)

I can't believe places don't adopt the nec. I'm from massachusetts. I don't think we have a choice since the code is written here. Just kidding. We have ammendments to the code, but usually go by the new code starting Jan.1 

The pool is a 52" above ground 15 x30 oval pool. The liner is vinyl. the stairs are plastic. That would make it a permenant install.


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## SEMPER FI (Mar 4, 2008)

SEMPER FI said:


> I looked it up. 680.26(C) says: *Pool Water. *An intentional bond of a minimum conductive surface area of 5806(square mm's) (9 square inches) shall be installed in contact with the pool water. This bond shall be permitted to consist of parts that are required to be bonded in 680.26(B). I underlined the parts that I think are relevant. I would tell the inspector to look closely at 680.26(B) (1), vinyl pool liners are not conductive and isn't that only thing that comes in contact with the water in an above ground pool since it has PVC ladders. If he is being a butt hole about it I would fight him to the end on this one. It's crazy that you should have to bond ANYTHING that is not conductive. If he still won't pass it then I would ask him to tell me what to do to satisfy him. He probably don't know what to do himself. Hope this helps you.
> 
> OOHRAH
> SEMPER FI





kram4yoo said:


> If you people are going to respond. *Please look at the 2008 NEC. *
> *All of article 680.26 has changed.*


Don't get you pannies in a wad. The post I made concerning 680.26(C) was typed word for word from the *2008 NEC. *You said in an earlier post of yours that the pool water section wasn't even the 2005 code book so where do you think I got it from. I felt a little chided when all I was trying to do was help. With that being said I still think the inspector don't have a leg to stand on. I know that water is a conductor but there's nothing that I can see that would energize it so why would it have to be grounded.

OOHRAH 
SEMPER FI


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## kram4yoo (Mar 6, 2008)

Mr. Semper FI
680.26(C) : *Pool Water. *An intentional bond of a minimum conductive surface area of 5806(square mm's) (9 square inches) shall be installed in contact with the pool water. This bond shall be permitted to consist of parts that are required to be bonded in 680.26(B). 

The code states :an *intentional bond Shall* *be installed* in contact with the pool water.


It's not being grounded, its being bonded to other parts of the pool to reduce voltage gradiants. The bonding sole function is to establish equal electrical potential.

It doesn't matter if the water is isolated.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Water itself is NOT as good of a conductor as most folks think.
Water just helps other things conduct better.


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## SEMPER FI (Mar 4, 2008)

kram4yoo said:


> Mr. Semper FI
> 680.26(C) : *Pool Water. *An intentional bond of a minimum conductive surface area of 5806(square mm's) (9 square inches) shall be installed in contact with the pool water. This bond shall be permitted to consist of parts that are required to be bonded in 680.26(B).
> 
> The code states :an *intentional bond Shall* *be installed* in contact with the pool water.
> ...


Mr. kram4yoo,
I apologize for being ignorant and since it seems you know the answer to the question you posed I guess the real question is why ask it. Have a great day sir as I will not post in this thread again.

OOHRAH
SEMPER FI


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## kram4yoo (Mar 6, 2008)

I obviously offended you. I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to do so.

I am not asking if i need to bond the water. It says it in the code to do so.

I am asking if anyone knows how to bond the water. Is there a product on the market that anyone knows about. I'm assumeing there must be if they are requiring it. I'm just trying to find it. I was hoping someone out there might have heard something.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Did you read my response.

Is this a permanently installed pool.

Additionally I looked in the NEC, NEC Changes and NEC Handbook. The Handbook does not reference how to accomplish. But based upon the NEC it references bonding methods from part (B). If this is a permanently installed pool Read part (B) I will read all of (B) this weekend, just had a hectic week and need to kick back for a bit.


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## kram4yoo (Mar 6, 2008)

yes and yes it is. 52 "


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## Greg (Aug 1, 2007)

In Florida, the above ground pools aren't considered permanent only in gound. Might talk to him about bonding the pump, since the pool water passes through it. I believe I would go over his head on this one since their is nothing to bond to and all the materials are plastic.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Greg said:


> In Florida, the above ground pools aren't considered permanent only in gound.


The NEC DOES consider it a permanent pool.





Greg said:


> Might talk to him about bonding the pump, since the pool water passes through it.


The pump would already require bonding. Also, the water does not come in contact with anything metallic inside the pump. Except for maybe a tiny section of motor shaft under the impeller.




Greg said:


> I believe I would go over his head on this one since their is nothing to bond to and all the materials are plastic.


The way I see it is that the new requirement wants to add this piece (to pools that have nothing metallic in contact with the water) that would, by being in contact, bond the water itself. 

I can't believe this hogwash ever made it into our venerable NEC. A publication BTW that IMO has lost MUCH of it's respect with this recent code cycle.


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## SparksNY (Feb 10, 2007)

I was wondering the same question that was originally posted. How the heck are we going to bond the water if the ladder is plastic?! Maybe just either buy a metal ladder and bond that OR just hang 9 sq. inches of #8 solid coiled up over the side in the water. Just make sure to take it out after inspection, wouldn't want to waste the copper these days.


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## Greg (Aug 1, 2007)

Speedy Petey said:


> The NEC DOES consider it a permanent pool.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Granted I don't have an 08 NEC book yet because Fl hasn't adopted it yet but in 05 the way I read it states, a permanently installed pool is one that has a depth greater than 42" or constructed in the ground or partially in the ground. 

An above ground pool that is less than 42" deep and constructed on or above the ground or a pool with nonmetallic, molded polymeric walls is considered a storable pool.


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

_I've suggested a short piece of stainless pipe with a lug welded to it._

_Done. _
_Wet niche fills the bill,(dry)light trim thoug not supplied with a lug'stainless skimmer or bottom drain,_

_But back to the vinyl liner.Ingrounds are also linered, so isolated._

_It was mentioned to me by a member of a CMP ..."that stray voltage in pool water was the leading cause of drowning,do to the victim becomeing dizzy and disorientated."_

_I have seen no substantiation for this._


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

680.26(C) : *Pool Water. *An intentional bond of a minimum conductive surface area of 5806(square mm's) (9 square inches) shall be installed in contact with the pool water. 680.26(C) : *Pool Water. *An intentional bond of a minimum conductive surface area of 5806(square mm's) (9 square inches) shall be installed in contact with the pool water. This bond shall be permitted to consist of parts that are required to be bonded in 680.26(B). 

1) no exceptions for portable or non-conductive pools.That I see.
2) Why " This bond shall be permitted to consist of parts that are required to be bonded in 680.26(B)." "PERMITTED"? And not just "SHALL consist of.."?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

With a vinyl liner it will require some SPECIAL plate I would assume. But in ground pools I think will be bonded by nature of design, as stated the NEC Handbook offers not insight into this. I will look and see if the Pool handbook is out yet.


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

_short piece of stainless pipe with a lug welded to it_
_Perhaps a brass union, most are 1.5"_

_pretty simple if we can get one listed. Theres always water in the pipes._


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

*MA. Version*

Kram4yoo---


"
680.26(C). Revise to read as follows:

(C) Pool Water. Pool water shall have an electrical connection to one or more of the bonded parts described in 680.26(B). Where none of the bonded parts is in direct connection with the pool water, the pool water shall be in direct contact with an approved corrosion-resistant conductive surface that exposes not less than 5800 mm2 (9 in.2) of surface area to the pool water at all times. The conductive surface shall be located where it is not exposed to physical damage or dislodgement during usual pool activities, and it shall be bonded in accordance with 680.26(B).


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## kram4yoo (Mar 6, 2008)

I figure that some manufacture will develop a 9 x 9 plate that will attach to the railing and will have to be installed behind the ladder. Or we will have to start using ladders made of metal.

I just hope it happens by the end of April when the pool gets installed.


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## thepiratejake (Oct 14, 2007)

what part of mass. was this in? im from western mass and am just wondering for future reference. maybe you could just tie a chunk of copper to a wire and drop it in the pool like a thermometer.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Not on 2008 yet either so this has passed under the radar for me also. For decades way too much emphasis has been placed on "grounding" in the code and the result was much confusion about what it actually is supposed to accomplish. Now I fear the same confusion is creeping into bonding as well. Here is what I propose for storable vinyl pools in order to satisfy the 2008 code. Empty the pool. No water- no bonding of the water required. Or you could drive a couple of ground rods thru the bottom of it and run a solid cu #8 to them from the bonding grid you put under the grass surrounding the pool. These extra measures are necessary due to all the electrical shocks you guys got when you were kids in that little kiddy pool your dad set up on the lawn for you. I'm with another poster from this same thread who has asked about just how much real shocking data has gone into this piece of brilliance in NEC history.


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## kram4yoo (Mar 6, 2008)

I have been talking to a lot of people about this. Some electricians I know that have taken the 2008 code review say, there instructors are saying, it is the manufacturers responablitiy to supply a point to bond to.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

I wonder if a piece of stainless piping of the NEC stated size in the pumping system would comply?


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## dSilanskas (Mar 11, 2008)

HIRSCH, B.: The testing done by the National Electric Energy Testing,
Research and Applications Center (NEETRAC) clearly substantiates that the
potential for shock hazard is increased in pools where the pool water is not
bonded via metal parts in the pool. Results of this testing were reported to
Panel 17 at the proposal meeting in January of 2006. Based on this testing, EEI
supports the adoption of this proposal and as such is voting negative to the
panel’s action. At the proposal meeting, Panel 17 indicated they had additional
questions that needed to be answered before supporting this proposal. The
panel statement, however, did little to document those concerns. Just as the
submitter needs to provide compelling substantiation for a code change, the
code panel has the responsibility to provide a justifiable technical basis to
reject well supported proposals

ROP Comment (negative view) of the rejection of the poolwater bonding proposal:

Substantiation: Extensive testing clearly substantiates that the potential for
voltage gradient is present in pools where the pool water is not bonded via
metal parts in the pool. With this knowledge and confirmation of a voltage
gradient hazard, the CMP must address the issue. Test results, handed out at
the Proposal Meeting, show that the presence of a touch potential exists in all
areas of the pool and that the proposed solution for bonding pool water will
essentially reduce that potential to zero. While the proposed solution may
not be the only solution, it meets the NEC criteria of providing minimum
protection for the public. The test report in its entirety has been submitted to
this Comment for further review by the Panel Members.
Typically, pool water is considered electrically conductive due to dissolved
chemicals. Although the conductivity will vary with the temperature, the
change in conductivity for all practical purposes is not a factor in the
application of a proposed solution. Again, the proposed solution meets the NEC
criteria of providing minimum protection for the public and should be viewed
as a protection measure compared to having no protection.
In the proposed solution, the size of bonding conductor is not specified. This
is in line with several Bonded Parts described in 680.26(B). In 680.26(B)(1),
(B)(2), (B)(3), and (B)(5), use of a minimum of #8 AWG size wire is implied
as specified in 680.26(B)(4) and 680.26(C).
In the stray voltage field, ground currents are rarely determined due to
measurement difficulties and inaccuracies. On the other hand, resulting
voltage gradients (stray voltages), however, are very easy to measure and
can be directly used to analyze stray voltage problems and their mitigation.
As evidenced by the test report, the proposed solution is based on such stray
voltage measurements around a swimming pool.


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

leland said:


> _It was mentioned to me by a member of a CMP ..."that stray voltage in pool water was the leading cause of drowning,do to the victim becomeing dizzy and disorientated."_
> 
> _I have seen no substantiation for this._


dSilanskas: Thank you for the post!

And WELCOME.


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## dSilanskas (Mar 11, 2008)

thank you


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Does anyone have any pics of what is used to ground the water in a in-ground pool? 

Most of the places I work are on the 05 code till this job I just got :blink:


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## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

Speedy Petey said:


> Water itself is NOT as good of a conductor as most folks think.
> Water just helps other things conduct better.


 I've never really thought about it untill now, but I would think that pool water would be a better conductor than, say, tap water. 
The reason that I say this is over the course of the season you will have evaporation so you have to replace the water. The water will evaporate but the minerals won't. 

Would this make a big difference? Probably not, but I kind of want to check it out now. 

I didn' know about the change, I'm gonna have to read up.


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## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

Just noticed this is an old thread.


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## LJSMITH1 (May 4, 2009)

kram4yoo said:


> I am a journeyman who is installing an above ground pool at my house. I went to get permits and the inspector told me about code 680.26C. Unless I am misunderstanding the code , I need to bond the water. Is there a product on the market that I can get, that I can stick in the water, to bond the water. I have asked everyone. Nobody knows of a product, including my local inspector. Yet he plans on enforcing the code because it is in the code book. I have asked pool stores, pool installers, and electrical supply houses. I have also talked to an electrical instructer. He claims that it is the pool manufactures responsability to supply the bonding device.
> I would appreciate any info or direction possible.


 
Here is what you need:

http://www.waterbonder.com

Patent Pending and UL Listed..


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## Joe Mush (May 17, 2008)

*bonding pool water*

www.bondsafe680.com It is UL Listed and easy to install with no plumbing


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## LJSMITH1 (May 4, 2009)

Joe Mush said:


> www.bondsafe680.com It is UL Listed and easy to install with no plumbing


 
However, if this is installed by anyone other than the equipment manufacturer, you will most likely void the warranty. Besides, why would you want to drill into a skimmer housing anyway? A plumbing fitting is inherently much faster to deal with and doesn't require any housing modifications.

Just my $.02..


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

LJSMITH1 said:


> However, if this is installed by anyone other than the pump manufacturer, you will most likely void the pump warranty. Besides, why would you want to drill into a pool pump housing anyway? A plumbing fitting is inherently much faster to deal with and doesn't require any pump housing modifications.
> 
> Just my $.02..


This item has nothing to do the the pump whatsoever. :confused1:

What does that water bonder fitting you are pushing cost?


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## LJSMITH1 (May 4, 2009)

electricmanscott said:


> This item has nothing to do the the pump whatsoever. :confused1:
> 
> What does that water bonder fitting you are pushing cost?


 
I'm not "pushing" anything as I don't represent any of these products. I just happened to do a bunch of research on them..There are also a few more that are more complicated...

The Bondsafe680 product requires you to drill a hole in the pool skimmer housing. If it is a separate item (like a pool filter housing), you need to drill into that. Either way, you are drilling into a perfectly good piece of equipment when you really don't have to. I have called manufacturers of the pump units (and filter/skimmer units) and they have told me that it will most likely void the product warranty. So, if that doesn't matter - go for it.

The fitting product is inherently much simpler of an item to work with. I think they cost around $90-$100, but they are made of solid Stainless Steel, with the stud welded to the body and a copper lay in lug. With pool water, you can't just use any metal - you need stainless for resistance to chlorine.

If you wanted to, just buy a 1-1/4" (or 1-1/2") stainless nipple at least 6" long, attach a Direct Burial bronze grounding clamp to the outside, connect your wire to the lug, and call it a day. The only issue....not a UL listed assembly - but that may not matter in many jurisdictions anyway.

You would only need this when there is nothing in your pool that is bonded (i.e. a metal ladder, metal wet niche lights, etc.) Above ground pools fit the usual application as they typically have plastic or coated metal components in contact with the water. The 2008 NEC still requires the pool water itself to be bonded. These devices are a way to address that requirement.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

LJSMITH1 said:


> The Bondsafe360 product requires you to drill a hole in the pool pump strainer housing,


No it does not, they Bondsafe is installed in the pool skimmer. 


I thought engineers were more observant before commenting.


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## LJSMITH1 (May 4, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> No it does not, they Bondsafe is installed in the pool skimmer.
> 
> 
> I thought engineers were more observant before commenting.


 
Yes..it can be installed in a skimmer too (and void the warranty on that).:yes: I have heard of people installing it in a filter housing. It can also be installed on a pool wall if you wanted to get crazy.

How silly do you want to get?:jester:


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

LJSMITH1 said:


> How silly do you want to get?:jester:


I think you've gotten silly enough already.

BTW It's bondsafe 680 not 360. 

It is only $37 bucks at my supplier and it is simple to install. 

To each their own but having used the 680 I can't see why I would spend almost three times as much.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

LJSMITH1 said:


> Yes..it can be installed in a skimmer too (and void the warranty on that).


Now that is some silly stuff.





> :yes: I have heard of people installing it in a filter housing. It can also be installed on a pool wall if you wanted to get crazy.



The instructions say in the skimmer.




> How silly do you want to get?:jester:


Not nearly as silly as UL can be.


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## LJSMITH1 (May 4, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> Now that is some silly stuff.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Who really follows manufacturer's instructions anyway?:jester:


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## LJSMITH1 (May 4, 2009)

electricmanscott said:


> I think you've gotten silly enough already.
> 
> BTW It's bondsafe 680 not 360.
> 
> ...


Oops, bad typo...680 it is.. sorry.

Unless you include labor savings...You don't need a drill to install a simple fitting, plus it puts the bond connection closer to the pool filter motor, so there is less conductor to run and have hanging out in the breeze waiting to get snagged on something...That's just the way I look at it..

Of course, either item will address the code. Maybe you can do it for even cheaper with a 3" x 1-1/4" SS nipple and a DB Ground Clamp?:thumbup: Especially, if you don't need that pesky UL listing.


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## LJSMITH1 (May 4, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> Now that is some silly stuff.
> quote]
> 
> Bob - FYI.. both items are made and/or originate in MA. :thumbup:


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## Toronto Sparky (Apr 12, 2009)

I like to keep my pool water at 600 volts.. Makes it seem warmer as you step in..


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## LJSMITH1 (May 4, 2009)

Toronto Sparky said:


> I like to keep my pool water at 600 volts.. Makes it seem warmer as you step in..


LOL! Tell it to the NEC folks! They are the ones that put it in...


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Toronto Sparky said:


> I like to keep my pool water at 600 volts.. Makes it seem warmer as you step in..


 
You don't have a choice. Stupid cold Canada. :laughing:


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## sonnyet (Jul 16, 2011)

Hey,
Maybe this new rule for bonding the pool water is to protect the poor folk that like to swim during the lightning storms?!When the lightning strikes nearby, you want to make sure it gets to the water!


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Please check the dates of these threads. This is the second one you opened that was at least a year old. Start a new thread and ask your questions there. Thanks


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