# Opinions...



## ElectroMag (May 29, 2013)

There's no such thing as a sub panel.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Rock Crusher said:


> My neighbor wanted to update part of his house. He has old wiring mixed with new, old service going to a sub-panel. I told him he needs a new service brought to a residential panel, not a sub-panel.
> Try to post a picture.


I am a bit confused by your terminology but am willing to offer help if you need it. I install Residential sub panels often. Could you define what it is that you mean by residential panel?.


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## Rock Crusher (May 6, 2013)

I'm sorry. It's a panel without a main disconnect that is in there now. And I told him he needs a regular 120/240 panel. He only has 12 circuits. It's a 1 bed, 1 bath house. I took a picture on my phone, but can't figure out how to post it.


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## ElectroMag (May 29, 2013)

I've seen many houses that originally only had 6 circuits so there was no main disconnect. That may be the case here and why you are thinking the panel is a subpanel.

Explain to him that the service entrance equipment is too small and the panel is also too small for any increased loads. Tell him what comes with a new service, including the updated grounding. Explain to him how having newer breakers on a newer bus bar is safer than relying on the old junk.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Rock Crusher said:


> I'm sorry. It's a panel without a main disconnect that is in there now. And I told him he needs a regular 120/240 panel. He only has 12 circuits. It's a 1 bed, 1 bath house. I took a picture on my phone, but can't figure out how to post it.


Is there any sort of service disconnecting and overcurrent protection means on the feeders somplace upstream of this panel? Next question , you say 12 circuits, do you mean he has a main panel with no main breaker and 12 separate breakers to turn everything off, or is this a split buss panel where there is six or less breakers on the top half that turn everything off including the breakers located in the lower half of the panel? You could create a picture album at your user control panel, upload your photo, and then copy that url to this post.


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## ElectroMag (May 29, 2013)

I get the feeling that it is a 6 space MLO panel (which is why he is calling it a sub panel) that tandems were installed later.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

ElectroMag said:


> I get the feeling that it is a 6 space MLO panel (which is why he is calling it a sub panel) that tandems were installed later.


I hope they weren't the screwdriver modified rejection type. If they were, the op is quite right in his assessment of necessity to change out the panel.


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## ElectroMag (May 29, 2013)

If there is no main, he should upgrade it no matter what. 

Hell, if there is any question about it, he should upgrade it. Service upgrades are some of the easiest money.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

I don't really like doing them. There still may be a main out at the meter. OP hasn't let us know for sure yet, but probably isn't one. I don't like standing in the same spot for the time it takes to remove and re install a panelboard, although a 12 circuit one would not really take me very long. Most of the ones I end up having to do are like 45 circuits stuffed into a 42 circuit panel...


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

ElectroMag said:


> There's no such thing as a sub panel.


News to me. I've installed tons of sub panels. If it ain't the main panel, it's a sub panel.

With a 1 bedroom, 1 bath house, he shouldn't need more than a 20 circuit panel and a 100A service. I wouldn't bother with a 200A service in that instance at all, in fact. Hell, a 4 circuit main and range would probably be plenty, but you can't install a service less than 100A now. Shucks. :laughing:


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## ElectroMag (May 29, 2013)

Going_Commando said:


> News to me. I've installed tons of sub panels. If it ain't the main panel, it's a sub panel.


This would be a 14 page thread at Mike Holt's...


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Going_Commando said:


> News to me. I've installed tons of sub panels. If it ain't the main panel, it's a sub panel.


When just shooting the crap I say sub panel.

When talking code that is another story, you will not find the words sub panel in the code.

Code wise it is either the service disconnect enclosure or 'load side equipment'.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

ElectroMag said:


> This would be a 14 page thread at Mike Holt's...


Everything is a 14 page thread there. :laughing:


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Going_Commando said:


> Hell, a 4 circuit main and range would probably be plenty, but you can't install a service less than 100A now. Shucks. :laughing:


Welcome back to Wadsworthville Commando....:thumbsup:










~CS~


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> Everything is a 14 page thread there. :laughing:


Now wait a second, are you suggesting things don't go long here?


Here we can go 14 pages on how to hang a fan on a grid or which half of a duplex to switch. :laughing:


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Now wait a second, are you suggesting things don't go long here?
> 
> 
> Here we can go 14 pages on how to hang a fan on a grid or which half of a duplex to switch.



:laughing: :laughing:


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

....we need a picture....now..!!! ...these guys are going to start throwing dog poop at each other in a minute if we have nuttin to dissect!!!:laughing:


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## Rock Crusher (May 6, 2013)

He was only asking my opinion and why some of his lights don't work. I've never really done much residential, mostly commercial and industrial. And even then, only new construction. Not much on the troubleshooting side. I used what I know and the switches look good, just the panel seems messed up. No ground to water pipe, grounds and neutrals are both on the neutral bar, and it's a 60A service coming in.
I tried to upload a picture of the panel, but it failed. It might be my phone. I'll try when I get home tonight from the computer.


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

bbq said:


> you will not find the words sub panel in the code.


409.2(3) nec


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## Rock Crusher (May 6, 2013)

Oh, and he didn't say he did it himself, but I saw a book on the table about do-it-yourself how-to book. Scary, I know.


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

....easy as pie...60 amps is to low period....upgrade time...lets leave the 60 amp in the 1960s where its was from....or earlier for that matter...


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Roger123 said:


> 409.2(3) nec


I see someone can use a search engine. Well you got me that is for sure. :laughing:

But in that section they are not talking about a subpanel as we had been. It is a subpanel to an industrial control panel. 


But again you got me.


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## Rock Crusher (May 6, 2013)

Roger123 said:


> 409.2(3) nec


Which explain why I called it a sub-panel. I've used them, just like this one, back-fed from a main panel off of a 60A breaker.
Sorry for my ignorance in residential terminology.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

BBQ said:


> When just shooting the crap I say sub panel.
> 
> When talking code that is another story, you will not find the words sub panel in the code.
> 
> Code wise it is either the service disconnect enclosure or 'load side equipment'.


Yeah, yeah. I don't worry about phrasing all that much anymore, as long as everyone knows what I am talking about. The NEC also doesn't say romex, sealtite, outlet/plug referring to receptacles, light fixtures, etc.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> Welcome back to Wadsworthville Commando....:thumbsup:
> 
> ~CS~


That's my huckleberry right there.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Going_Commando said:


> Yeah, yeah. I don't worry about phrasing all that much anymore, as long as everyone knows what I am talking about. The NEC also doesn't say romex, sealtite, outlet/plug referring to receptacles, light fixtures, etc.


Exactly. :thumbsup:


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

You know 1 of these things.....


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## Rock Crusher (May 6, 2013)

The smaller panel is what he has. It looks exactly like that.
Trying to load a picture of the inside.


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## Rock Crusher (May 6, 2013)

Didn't mean to load the picture 4 times.


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## Rock Crusher (May 6, 2013)

And here is the disco. for all that.


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## Sparky J (May 17, 2011)

Man that sub panel picture looks like one done by a guy (he did not last long) at a company I use to work for. He installed a 50 amp range circuit on a 50 amp sub panel with other misc. circuits in it and then was curious as to why the sub panel breaker tripped when the range was on with other circuits also in use.
Combine that crap into a nice panel and upgrade the service and grounding.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Roger123 said:


> 409.2(3) nec





BBQ said:


> I see someone can use a search engine. Well you got me that is for sure. :laughing:
> 
> But in that section they are not talking about a subpanel as we had been. It is a subpanel to an industrial control panel.
> 
> ...


:laughing::laughing::thumbup:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Rock Crusher said:


> Didn't mean to load the picture 4 times.


looks good..:thumbsup:


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

:blink: We can have fun with that panel!


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## crazyboy (Nov 8, 2008)

macmikeman said:


> I don't really like doing them. There still may be a main out at the meter. OP hasn't let us know for sure yet, but probably isn't one. I don't like standing in the same spot for the time it takes to remove and re install a panelboard, although a 12 circuit one would not really take me very long. Most of the ones I end up having to do are like 45 circuits stuffed into a 42 circuit panel...


I'm all for them, I like the challenge. :laughing: Ill come do the ones you don't want to do, just pay travel.


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## Rock Crusher (May 6, 2013)

Sparky J said:


> ...
> Combine that crap into a nice panel and upgrade the service and grounding.


That's what I told him. I also said that's why half his lights aren't working. Oh well, we'll see what he says.


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## Rock Crusher (May 6, 2013)

Ok, the guy wants me to fix what was done, but the wire isn't long enough to go into the new panel.
Pardon my ignorance, but all my experience is with industrial/commercial. And only with new construction. I am a contractor, just got my license for it, and want to help the guy out. But not sure how to proceed without rewiring everything to make it work. I've talked to other electricians who have said putting in a gutter would work, but I think that'd look weird and not very craftsman like. 
Any suggestions? Or is that what you would normally do? Or should I just let a different contractor take the job?
Thanks in advance


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

Little panel all wrong.


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## Rock Crusher (May 6, 2013)

bobelectric said:


> Little panel all wrong.


That picture is what I need to fix, not what I did. I haven't done anything yet.


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## Arc'n'Spark (Jul 21, 2011)

Set a trough or a couple of 4-11s above it and extend.


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## Rock Crusher (May 6, 2013)

Arc'n'Spark said:


> Set a trough or a couple of 4-11s above it and extend.


Those were my thoughts too. Basement is unfinished, and he said never will be, and all the work will be accessible. And you say trough, I say gutter. ;-)


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## DesertDawg (Jun 6, 2013)

You say half of his stuff doesn't work? Are both hots hot? I've come across old 50A/120V services here in the Land of Enchantment. As several have asked here, is there a main disconnect? Maybe you shouldn't be the one to help him, maybe he needs an electrician who is familiar with residential before things get worse. Don't you know any residential electricians who could give you a quick consult?


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## Rock Crusher (May 6, 2013)

I checked phase to phase and phase to neutral, both good. Outlets test ok, switches show 70v.


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## DesertDawg (Jun 6, 2013)

If there is no main disconnect, I would install one. It looks like there is no ground, again, I'd install one. What is the 50a load? Cook stove? I'd get a gas one or we're talking service upgrade. In fact I'd recommend the service upgrade anyway. And since you'll need that residential contractor for the service upgrade, maybe you could ask him about the low voltage to your light switches.


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## Rock Crusher (May 6, 2013)

He's in no hurry and I'd like to figure this one out. I want to make the move from commercial/industrial jw, to residential/commercial/industrial contractor. I figure this would be a good place to start, especially since he lives close. Well, this is his second house, he lives at another location too. Weird, I know.
I can pull a permit, I was going to replace the service and put a 150A in with a new panel and all the fixins'. The local utility gave me a copy of their codes and I've also talked to the inspector for this area, I just wasn't sure on what to do above the panel without rewiring everything he did. I told the inspector what I read here and he agreed that would work, as long as it's accessible and the customer knows that.


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## DesertDawg (Jun 6, 2013)

Now you're talking like a pro. I'm not sure what your resistance is to re-wiring the old work, a few minutes of staring and head scratching should make it rather clear what needs to be replaced and what can be salvaged. It would seem to have a lot less to do with what you want, and a lot more to do with what makes sense. Are the home runs basically run properly? Your photo doesn't show anything about how/where the panel is situated. If it's not in a great place, relocating it might be very productive in the long run. Sorry, here where I live, you can't assume anything, you have to check everything as soon as you see evidence that someone less than competent was doing work.


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## Rock Crusher (May 6, 2013)

The outside service is fine, but the panel inside is going to be moved. It's only 16 feet away from where the service comes in, but I don't want to run the service across the basement. I have to make everything longer anyway, so I may as well relocate the panel while I'm at it.:thumbsup:
I'll try and post a picture of the before and after.
Thanks everyone for all the help and input.:thumbup:


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

ElectroMag said:


> There's no such thing as a sub panel.


Please explain.


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

Weak, but mentioned in N.E.C. 2011.sec. 409.2(3).


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## DesertDawg (Jun 6, 2013)

It's short for a breaker panel in a submarine.


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## Rock Crusher (May 6, 2013)

DesertDawg said:


> It's short for a breaker panel in a submarine.


It's ironic you say that, have you been on a submarine?


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## DesertDawg (Jun 6, 2013)

No sorry, just cracking wise, I find the semantics debates amusing and a little frustrating. Maybe I shouldn't call them sub-panels, how about unicorns? Then it should be obvious what I'm talking about. Yes, is it the main panel or a unicorn?


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## Rock Crusher (May 6, 2013)

It's ok. I was only asking because I was on a submarine in the Navy. That's why I found it ironic you saying that. Lol


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