# Need some advice on JATC Inside Wireman Training



## Bushwhacked (Aug 4, 2009)

I am currently an office professional in Arkansas, and I have been trying unsuccessfully to get into the utilities field due to work environment, pay, and pension and other benefits. On a whim, I applied to the IBEW/JATC's commercial apprenticeship program and have qualified for an interview.

I am 32 years old, have a college degree, and want to get off my butt and do some work for a living instead of sitting in an office. The program in Arkansas is 5 years, with a starting pay below what I make now, which makes the decision very difficult, and with a journeyman's wage set (for now) at mid-$20s.

I haven't had much success tracking down answers locally about this program, such as the benefits provided during training (vacation, insurance, etc.) and what is required of the trainees after the apprenticeship ends in 5 years, other than they want you to "stick around" to repay the training.

4 hours of classroom time are required each week, and I was wondering if it's actually a full 4 hours every week. Do these inside wireman/commercial jobs often transition into employment with utilities? Is the local IBEW journeyman rate usually the best pay rate in any given area for this level of electrician? 

I've got a million questions, and this is not a decision I'm taking lightly. Any info would be great!


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

I would go for it, I got in at age 38 and had a electronics degree.


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## Bushwhacked (Aug 4, 2009)

drsparky said:


> I would go for it, I got in at age 38 and had a electronics degree.


Did you do the JATC's 5 year program?


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Bushwhacked said:


> Do these inside wireman/commercial jobs often transition into employment with utilities?


Almost never. If you go IBEW, it's a totally different apprenticeship, normally with a different local. The UUW also represents utility workers.


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## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

Check the IBEW web site for the local you applied. It will give some description on the questions you have asked. Check to see if the local also has a web site and read through it completely lots of info. Each local has a collective bargaining agreement that spells out a lot of your issues, i.e. vaction, health benefits ect. Hope this helps.


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## ousoonerfan3 (Jun 29, 2008)

Lets see if I can help. I am about to start my 3rd year of school in Oklahoma.



Bushwhacked said:


> I am currently an office professional in Arkansas, and I have been trying unsuccessfully to get into the utilities field due to work environment, pay, and pension and other benefits. On a whim, I applied to the IBEW/JATC's commercial apprenticeship program and have qualified for an interview.
> 
> I am 32 years old, have a college degree, and want to get off my butt and do some work for a living instead of sitting in an office. The program in Arkansas is 5 years, with a starting pay below what I make now, which makes the decision very difficult, and with a journeyman's wage set (for now) at mid-$20s.


I started at age 31 like you looking for something other than office work. I haven't regretted it. I started at $11.70 and am currently making $18.20. Journeyman's rate here is $26.00/hr.



Bushwhacked said:


> I haven't had much success tracking down answers locally about this program, such as the benefits provided during training (vacation, insurance, etc.) and what is required of the trainees after the apprenticeship ends in 5 years, other than they want you to "stick around" to repay the training.


Benefits are according to the contract, but here apprentices receive full benefits. That includes pensions and health,dental,vision insurance for the whole family paid by your contractor. No paid vacation, but your contract may be different. Nothing is required of the apprentice after they finish the program, at least here. Some locals require a certain number of years after turning out to "repay" so you will want to check.




Bushwhacked said:


> 4 hours of classroom time are required each week, and I was wondering if it's actually a full 4 hours every week. Do these inside wireman/commercial jobs often transition into employment with utilities? Is the local IBEW journeyman rate usually the best pay rate in any given area for this level of electrician?


Our classroom time is on average 6 hours a week. 3 on Monday night, and 3 on Thursday night, September thru May. Some JATCs have class during the day for several weeks in a row. You draw unemployment while attending class. Plan on being there the entire time. Also, book fees run $250-500 per year, but we get our money back for maintaining an A average, and not missing any class. Your JATC probably differs so its best to check. As far as pay, there are a couple of non-union contractors around here who offer comprabale hourly rates, but can't touch the benefits. When it comes to pay, the saying "a rising tide raises all ships" applies

Good luck. Its a decision I have not regretted.

On Edit....regarding utilities. I have heard of a few guys who have gone to work for the utilities after turning out and getting several years under their belt. Their training got them in the door, but they had to start all over and serve an apprenticeship with the utility.


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

Bushwhacked said:


> Did you do the JATC's 5 year program?


You betcha, I helped the others in the electronics and math and got a lot out the entire program.:thumbsup:


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## Bushwhacked (Aug 4, 2009)

Soonerfan,

I even have been applying for AEP/PSO's meter reader positions in Tulsa! IBEW overall seems a better deal.

Another question: Has anyone in the JATC program gotten OT (the beginning pay is a real obstacle to me)? And, what are the OT rates for a typical IBEW agreement? just 1-1/2 times, or a tiered approach after so many OT hours, coupled with Sunday and holiday rates?

I did check the local IBEW site, and the hourly rate for Little Rock right now is $22.64 + pension,and with benefits fully covered by company, but there's no info on possible vacation and there's no comprehensive labor agreement shown on the website.


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## Bushwhacked (Aug 4, 2009)

> IOn Edit....regarding utilities. I have heard of a few guys who have gone to work for the utilities after turning out and getting several years under their belt. Their training got them in the door, but they had to start all over and serve an apprenticeship with the utility.


I'm surprised that if they were trained as inside wiremen they weren't able to get in as an operator or some other equivalent level. Did they enter at the lineman apprenticeship level? 

I've seen a lot of postings for AEP and Entergy jobs where it seemed they were looking for a journeyman electrician's level of experience for fairly good paying plant jobs.

But I'll admit, I have no idea who they did eventually hire!


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## ousoonerfan3 (Jun 29, 2008)

Bushwhacked said:


> ...Another question: Has anyone in the JATC program gotten OT (the beginning pay is a real obstacle to me)? And, what are the OT rates for a typical IBEW agreement? just 1-1/2 times, or a tiered approach after so many OT hours, coupled with Sunday and holiday rates?


There is OT available, depending on the job of course. I have people in my class that have worked 7-12s for weeks on end. One person was doing 16 hour days for about 3 weeks. Our rates are 1.5x for anything over 8 hours/day. 2nd shift pays a 17.3% premium and 3rd pays 31.4%. Holidays, if worked, are 2x.


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## ousoonerfan3 (Jun 29, 2008)

Bushwhacked said:


> I'm surprised that if they were trained as inside wiremen they weren't able to get in as an operator or some other equivalent level. Did they enter at the lineman apprenticeship level?
> 
> I've seen a lot of postings for AEP and Entergy jobs where it seemed they were looking for a journeyman electrician's level of experience for fairly good paying plant jobs.
> 
> But I'll admit, I have no idea who they did eventually hire!


One guy I know of went to work doing systems analysis of some sort, but this guy could write his own ticket anywhere, he as that bright. The others all started at the bottom as groundmen and served an apprenticeship.


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## TheBrushMan007 (Nov 21, 2008)

If you have the oppourtnity, I would definitly go for it. I started in 1998, and topped out in 2002, Contractor 2007.


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## Bushwhacked (Aug 4, 2009)

TheBrushMan007 said:


> If you have the oppourtnity, I would definitly go for it. I started in 1998, and topped out in 2002, Contractor 2007.


So, 10 years later, and after becoming a Contractor, how much can one expect to pull down?


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## Bushwhacked (Aug 4, 2009)

I know that in some markets, union guys get a bad rap for various reasons, and can in effect become black-balled for many contractors. Is there a way to find out if in Arkansas the IBEW has the market cornered or has a good reputation?

There is nobody more pro-union than me, but when the rubber hits the road...


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## TheBrushMan007 (Nov 21, 2008)

The world can be at your finger tips if done correctly.
With anything there are some sacrifices and nothing comes easy.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

You're trying to open the wrong door.
Inside Commercial guys don't work for utilities. If they do, its under the 'special' book at the IBEW hall with outside (not inside) jurisdiction.

We work for contractors. Utilities have a different thing going on with how they work, they have things like seniority, where we don't.

If you want to get outside, lineman is your best shot. We're only outside when the weather is total crap, and even then, its not for that long. Picture yourself inside, working in the dark and the dust, that's what we do.


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## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

I hate to say it but, your'e putting the cart before the horse. You want a change but not a career that will make you saciface money for 5 years. Especially with the way the economy is right now you may be required to attend school but have no work with a contractor. This type of work can be very demanding on your body and I'm talking about as an inside wireman, being a lineman can be twice as hard on your body. This type of work is none by people who have a passion for it, the physical ability and the mental capabilities to perform during stressful conditions. Are you sure this is what you want?


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

FWIW, I've seen far more arborists become linemen than electricians becoming linemen.


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## Bushwhacked (Aug 4, 2009)

rlc3854 said:


> I hate to say it but, your'e putting the cart before the horse. You want a change but not a career that will make you saciface money for 5 years. Especially with the way the economy is right now you may be required to attend school but have no work with a contractor. This type of work can be very demanding on your body and I'm talking about as an inside wireman, being a lineman can be twice as hard on your body. This type of work is none by people who have a passion for it, the physical ability and the mental capabilities to perform during stressful conditions. Are you sure this is what you want?




So you're saying it's too risky a career move? I did some calculations on what my takehome would be, and if I do get 40 hours it would be doable. 

Do you have another route you would suggest?

The person in the local JATC said 2 guys were laid off for 2 months last year, but they got unemployment and got placed again. Would the IBEW and the contractors risk higher UE premiums and costly apprentices if they didn't think the work would be there? 

I am not worried about the physical aspects of this job; I wanted to do lineman work but have been unable to find an inlet here in Arkansas. Although I do office work, I am plenty physically capable.


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## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

Bushwhacked said:


> So you're saying it's too risky a career move? I did some calculations on what my takehome would be, and if I do get 40 hours it would be doable


 
You did figure in your dues, work assessments and books right?
What local are you applying?
Locals will pick up apprentrices if they need to lay off it is usaually at a time that a previous employer would pick up the ue benefits.


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## Bushwhacked (Aug 4, 2009)

rlc3854 said:


> You did figure in your dues, work assessments and books right?
> What local are you applying?
> Locals will pick up apprentrices if they need to lay off it is usaually at a time that a previous employer would pick up the ue benefits.


I figured dues at 6.5% of gross ( I don't know if that's correct for this local) and books, from what I gather, would be $250-$500 per year.

Am I in the ballpark?

What are assessments, and how much are they?

Are you saying that a local will pick up apprentices even when more advanced apprentices are laid off? Or do locals just pick up apprentices in projected necessary quantities at the same time every year?


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Bushwhacked said:


> So you're saying it's too risky a career move? I did some calculations on what my takehome would be, and if I do get 40 hours it would be doable.
> 
> Do you have another route you would suggest?


I've heard it said, 'I'm not here for the glory, I'm here for the money.'
It was an estimator who said that, not an electrician anymore.

I'm here because I like the work, it just so happens that it pays alright. If you want meaningful work thats physical and pays well, try on being a nurse at a mental hospital on for size. Nurses make more than we do, and I heard psychos are really strong and unpredictible. If you are expecting 40 hour weeks 8am-4pm as an electrician until you retire, you will be disappointed, you will have to be very flexible in taking time off, taking on over-time, and working far from home.


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## Bushwhacked (Aug 4, 2009)

I have an idea of the varying work conditions, but what I'm concerned about is the nature of the job as it relates to benefits, job security, the workings of the IBEW, and exactly what is expected of apprentices.

I'm not scared of the work, just a little worried about the financial sacrifice I'll have to make for the first 2 or 3 years.

You did bring up an interesting point - travel. How much of your IBEW career has been spent on the road? and, how many periods/how long have you been out of work before?

Do union contractors typically provide paid vacation for apprentices or journeymen?

Thank you all for the info so far!:thumbsup:


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## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

I am guessing you are trying to get in local 295 in Little Rock. When you are working you pay a working assessment at 6.5% of the gross wage and you pay a monthly due. Currently the monthly dues are around $33.00 for JIW's. Your dues and working assessment % might be lower. Typically as an apprentices you will not be allowed to travel outside your local. This local 295 does not have vacation nor does the contractor pay any additional monies into your pension than the standard of around 3%. You must be vested with five good years (worked at least 1000 hours). These are hard times for the construction industry but hopefully things will start changing soon. There are those of us here that went through the oil embargo recession of the early 70's then the down turn of the early 80's, then the Gulf war and job stagnation. Get the picture of the ten year swing. As long as your working after 300 hours you medical insurance again your local may have a contract that also provides for dental and vision. Not all locals do. You to bank some hours to carry over if you are not working but they too can run out. Most locals do not receive paid holidays but some do, the same for sick days. A lot of that depends on the contractor, if the CBA does call for these benefits but the contractor wants to provide them to current employees they can. Hopes this helps.


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## Bushwhacked (Aug 4, 2009)

Thanks, that helps a lot. I am a little disappointed that vacation time will not be paid, but what did you mean by "bank some hours?"

I guess I have a lot more info now. I'll just have to prep for the interview, hope I get an offer, and then present my list of questions when/if I go in to sign on.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Bushwhacked said:


> what I'm concerned about is the nature of the job as it relates to benefits, job security,


No paid vacation. Not really any job security either, the axe could come any friday, but you will learn to read the writing on the wall. The benefits are really top notch though. If your local is in an economically weak area, you more than likely will have to travel alot after you finish the apprenticeship. All in all, it's a good honest gig, just wish I could of been a rockstar, made my millions, and retired in Jamaica already


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