# Definite purpose contactors...



## Forge Boyz (Nov 7, 2014)

So somebody was saying they would take DP contactors over IEC any day. This is what you get with 43 amps of resistive load on a 50amp rated contactor for 7 years. There were 2 like this on a machine and one was replaced a year or so ago.








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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

Seven years is 6.33 years longer than you would have gotten out of an IEC contactor. 

43 amps is 86% of the contactors rating. This is one of those things that should be rated 125% or more. A 60 amp contactor should go back in it's place.


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## Forge Boyz (Nov 7, 2014)

Oh I don't disagree that it is undersized. The whole machine is built right to the edge. 43A of heat on #8's that are fused at 60A. There is no disconnect on the control box. I put 80A contactors in to replace them.

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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

When using DP contractors with resistive loads, I'll go at least 150%, with IEC, i'll go 200%.


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

NEMA 2 contactor [with a shoehorn] for the win.


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

7 years and was probably never serviced once. A phase seemed happy so you have to wonder why b and c are showing serious signs of overheating. (thermal sweep would have caught this a while ago)

You can have the best gear in the world burn up due to a loose connection or you can have a IEC that will burn even if the wires are tight.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Just curious, does anybody worry about the lack of a listing when replacing a DP contactor with a DP other than identical to the original? 

I have never heard of anyone around here even mentioning it, only read about it online, but I live in the wild west, I am curious about how things are back in civilization.


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

splatz said:


> Just curious, does anybody worry about the lack of a listing when replacing a DP contactor with a DP other than identical to the original?
> 
> I have never heard of anyone around here even mentioning it, only read about it online, but I live in the wild west, I am curious about how things are back in civilization.


I suppose anything installed that wasn't a exact P/N for P/N, upgrade or not, would be a UL listing violation for the assembly, MOC or not. 
We've all swapped out control transformers before in MCC buckets, and I'm sure that is a violation. In this trade, what isn't a code violation to a AHJ that wants to find an issue?


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

splatz said:


> Just curious, does anybody worry about the lack of a listing when replacing a DP contactor with a DP other than identical to the original?
> 
> I have never heard of anyone around here even mentioning it, only read about it online, but I live in the wild west, I am curious about how things are back in civilization.


I don't even worry about it being a violation using a definite purpose contactor in field-built controls, so no.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

These days, listing is nothing more than a group of money-grubbing educated idiots misusing the law to extract copious amounts of $$$ from any and every source they can. 

So no, I have no concern whatsoever about using listed devices.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

micromind said:


> These days, listing is nothing more than a group of money-grubbing educated idiots misusing the law to extract copious amounts of $$$ from any and every source they can.
> 
> So no, I have no concern whatsoever about using listed devices.


The code of common sense always prevails over the code of manufacturers profit.


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

I thought DP stands for Don’t Purchase. Did I miss something?


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

paulengr said:


> I thought DP stands for Don’t Purchase. Did I miss something?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Lol......I've had pretty good luck with them but you need to size them based on the application. 

This usually means grossly oversize........


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

micromind said:


> Lol......I've had pretty good luck with them but you need to size them based on the application.
> 
> 
> 
> This usually means grossly oversize........


It's like IEC. Can't tell you how many times I've seen IEC starters labelled say 100 A with category 1 on a 95 FLA motor being used on a crane or machine tool where it gets pulsed or even plugged which makes it category 4 or more. And so IEC is "garbage". With NEMA general purpose you use HP and voltage to get a "size" for most applications except plugging and heavy cycling where the NEMA standard has extra tables for that. Then use that to get the manufacturers part number. With IEC you start with HP and take a trip to NEC to get worst case FLA. Then use utilization and FLA to get a manufacturer part number. It's almost the same steps.

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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

splatz said:


> Just curious, does anybody worry about the lack of a listing when replacing a DP contactor with a DP other than identical to the original?
> 
> I have never heard of anyone around here even mentioning it, only read about it online, but I live in the wild west, I am curious about how things are back in civilization.


It’s all fun and games until someone loses an eye.

What I’m referring to is if you replace like for like, the assembly conforms to the labeling.
What if you replaced a component that burned up due to being overloaded, like for like, and you know it is going to burn up again.
Would you be obligated to “ upgrade” the component?


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

Southeast Power said:


> It’s all fun and games until someone loses an eye.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Obligated depends on why you are there. If your job is "fix", you replace. If your job is troubleshoot then you should identify the root cause and fix that. When it's a DP you can go back with same make/model so it meets the original 508/508A. If you upgrade it technically you're violating the Listing of the assembly but I'd say 99% of customers don't care. Even local Code inspectors are pretty lax if it's a Listed part.

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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

paulengr said:


> Obligated depends on why you are there. If your job is "fix", you replace. If your job is troubleshoot then you should identify the root cause and fix that. When it's a DP you can go back with same make/model so it meets the original 508/508A. If you upgrade it technically you're violating the Listing of the assembly but I'd say 99% of customers don't care. Even local Code inspectors are pretty lax if it's a Listed part.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk


We replace obsolete equipment that the manufacturer, by choice, no longer supports. The only remedy they offer is "remove and replace". 
You can buy aftermarket parts and extend the life but, who wants to be the person that makes the decision to rig up and be liable for a patch that fails, and causes a life threating delay? Think elevators, lighting or fire sprinklers.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

Southeast Power said:


> We replace obsolete equipment that the manufacturer, by choice, no longer supports. The only remedy they offer is "remove and replace".
> You can buy aftermarket parts and extend the life but, who wants to be the person that makes the decision to rig up and be liable for a patch that fails, and causes a life threating delay? Think elevators, lighting or fire sprinklers.


Me. I want to be that person. It is good and steady work. Not every customer is willing to just rip out their printing press and replace it with a new $500000 machine, but they are very happy paying me to keep one alive for many smaller payments.

Customers with obsolete equipment know what they are getting into. If your patch fails, you sell them another.


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## pudge565 (Dec 8, 2007)

splatz said:


> Just curious, does anybody worry about the lack of a listing when replacing a DP contactor with a DP other than identical to the original?
> 
> I have never heard of anyone around here even mentioning it, only read about it online, but I live in the wild west, I am curious about how things are back in civilization.


Most control panels aren't listed in the first place so really isn't an issue.

Even if it was listed, you can replace a recognized component with another recognized or listed component and pretty much be fine as a recognized or listed part is already tested for safety just as the first one you are replacing would (or should) have been.


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## pudge565 (Dec 8, 2007)

CoolWill said:


> Me. I want to be that person. It is good and steady work. Not every customer is willing to just rip out their printing press and replace it with a new $500000 machine, but they are very happy paying me to keep one alive for many smaller payments.
> 
> Customers with obsolete equipment know what they are getting into. If your patch fails, you sell them another.


There is a plant near me that is still running PLC 5 stuff. When a component fails they send it to a company in Jersey that repairs it and sends it back. The only reason obsolete stuff stops working is because we have become a disposable society, we want to take the broken out put a new one in and forget about the broken one. Hence our garbage issue...


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

pudge565 said:


> There is a plant near me that is still running PLC 5 stuff. When a component fails they send it to a company in Jersey that repairs it and sends it back. The only reason obsolete stuff stops working is because we have become a disposable society, we want to take the broken out put a new one in and forget about the broken one. Hence our garbage issue...



There's a ton of it running here ... there's enough on the secondary market to make it viable a while longer. But they won by waiting, AB tells us that now they can upgrade and guarantee the replacement will run the old code...


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## pudge565 (Dec 8, 2007)

splatz said:


> There's a ton of it running here ... there's enough on the secondary market to make it viable a while longer. But they won by waiting, AB tells us that now they can upgrade and guarantee the replacement will run the old code...


I don't see how that is possible with PLC 5 being point based and the newer models being tag based, unless they upgrade to a micrologix but those are close to being obsoleted as well.

I can't imagine what the conversion software would cost from AB to change the point to tag based...


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