# 6 Drops per 15 A circuit/8 Drops per 20 A circuit. Whats your opinion?



## romexrocket (Oct 3, 2007)

The county where most of my work is located enforces this rule, despite their is no code to back it up. If I have 6 recess cans in a kitchen ceiling / rated 75 w max lamp in each = 6 x 75= 450 watts divided by 120v= little less than 4 amps roughly. 15 a breaker @ 80% gives me 12 amps to work with, which leaves me 8 available amps left on circuit to utilize. I am limited to 6 drops according to them. (them meaning inspector in this county) I have tried to explain this to them but have no success other than a respone stating its always been this way and we are not gonna change a thing. So unfortunately I end up with a 40 circuit loadcenter slam full of breakers in a 2500 sq ft house and a little less profit in my pocket.

CRAZY RIGHT? :whistling2:


----------



## Andy in ATL (Aug 17, 2007)

Certainly it is crazy. Where in the code does it limit you to 80% of the circuit? Certainly you aren't going to argue that kitchen lights are continous loads. I'd take it to the city council.


----------



## romexrocket (Oct 3, 2007)

I dont think id have much luck at the council meeting. and I believe you can only load a branch circuit up to 80% of the fuse size or breaker, if im not mistaken, someone correct me if im wrong. 1 reason I joined this forum is to stand corrected..I can never know it all and willing to learn all I can.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Despite what they say, they must provide you with a code reference. Either NEC or a local amendment. They cannot just 'make things up.'

If you get pulled over for speeding, the officer writing the ticket must, by law, provide you with a reference to the law you broke. Inspectors are not above that law. If the inspector doesn't 'see the light', start working your way up the chain of command.


----------



## romexrocket (Oct 3, 2007)

480sparky said:


> Despite what they say, they must provide you with a code reference. Either NEC or a local amendment. They cannot just 'make things up.'
> 
> If you get pulled over for speeding, the officer writing the ticket must, by law, provide you with a reference to the law you broke. Inspectors are not above that law. If the inspector doesn't 'see the light', start working your way up the chain of command.


The head inspector is as high as I can get unfortunately, and He did hand me a flyer with the local codes scratched on it lol. I dont think they have been admitted by a higher power though if 1 exist. I heard that all local governments could add to the nec but not take away from it , but it had to be submitted and approved to enforce , maybe through a higher power who ever that may be. Ever heard this?


----------



## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

romexrocket said:


> I heard that all local governments could add to the nec but not take away from it , but it had to be submitted and approved to enforce , maybe through a higher power who ever that may be. Ever heard this?


WHAT???
I don't think so. 

Localities can do what ever they damn well please. 

You inspectors sound like a bunch of good ole' boys to me. 

Would you mind giving us your location? We can look up exactly what is required in your area and possibly give you some ammunition. 

If these jerks cannot provide a PRINTED LEGAL set of requirements, or at least where to get them, they should be FIRED. 

IT IS NOT their place to simply make up the rules as they see fit. I know some will say _"It's up to the local AHJ. They can interpret any way they want"_. I say B-S! They MUST have a baseline first. They are there to INTERPRET the codes, NOT write them!


----------



## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

romexrocket said:


> I believe you can only load a branch circuit up to 80% of the fuse size or breaker, if im not mistaken, someone correct me if im wrong.


The 80% load of the fuse size is only based on a continues load application. Otherwise, NEC allows you to load a non-continues load to a 100% of the branch rating.


----------



## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> So unfortunately I end up with a 40 circuit loadcenter slam full of breakers in a 2500 sq ft house and a little less profit in my pocket.


More work should equal more profit. You are doing something wrong.


Although it does seem excessive it is a better overall job. Charge for it.


----------



## gilbequick (Oct 6, 2007)

The code doesn't limit you to any number or drops. It only limits you to volt amps per square footage. 1 - 15A general lighting circuit is required per 600 square feet of living space. How it's broken up or overloaded is up to you! If you overload it, it's your fault and you'll be fixing it later on.

AN INSPECTORS JOB IS TO INSPECT, NOT EXPECT!


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Once again stupidity runs rampant from inspectors or inspection departments they need to be educated.

NOTHING IN THE WORLD ABOUT THIS MAKES sense and these are men that have no clue, that no matter how you break up a circuit, there is a woman out there that will over load the circuit.


----------



## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

brian john said:


> ....., that no matter how you break up a circuit, there is a woman out there that will over load the circuit.


Now THAT right there is funny! :laughing: :thumbup:


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Heard this in one of my first code classes 36 years ago.


----------



## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

Old post: New member.
Hope you don't mind.

The codes referenced are correct 80% continues, 100% Non.

Now bring this too the State building commision.
The law is the law.
Now if they want something silly,and wont cost you extra $ or labor...
Then sometimes it keeps the peace.
But for them to Write code, thats insane.


----------



## CAMINOGUY1 (Oct 12, 2007)

*same here*

Some of the boro's here are the same way. If you change out a SEU cable due to wind damage they want you to rewire the house. One even has us changing all the breakers in the living quarters to arc fault on 100 year old houses if we touch any part of the service.


----------



## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

*upgrades*

Here, after a service/panel upgrade the AFCI comes in. Or New additions of course.


----------



## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

gilbequick said:


> The code doesn't limit you to any number or drops. It only limits you to volt amps per square footage. 1 - 15A general lighting circuit is required per 600 square feet of living space. How it's broken up or overloaded is up to you! If you overload it, it's your fault and you'll be fixing it later on.
> 
> AN INSPECTORS JOB IS TO INSPECT, NOT EXPECT!


are you using the 3va / sq ft rule?


----------



## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

--







*6 Drops per 15 A circuit/8 Drops per 20 A circuit. Whats your opinion?* 


HERE IT COMES FOLKS!! Get ready!


http://www.nema.org/stds/fieldreps/codealerts/20080104al.cfm


----------



## nap (Dec 26, 2007)

and so it begins......


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

So does that apply outside of Alabama?


----------



## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

Not yet. But they all have friends. Who knows.:no:

24 hrs later, this.

Alabama State:http://www.nema.org/stds/fieldreps/codealerts/20080110al.cfm

Which one do you follow?


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

brian john said:


> Once again stupidity runs rampant from inspectors or inspection departments they need to be educated.
> 
> NOTHING IN THE WORLD ABOUT THIS MAKES sense and these are men that have no clue, that no matter how you break up a circuit, there is a woman out there that will over load the circuit.


No, from an NEC standpoint it doesn't make sense. But from a social standpoint it does. Once upon a time, the inspector reigned supreme, and in this situation, they still do. It was suggested by another poster the OP needs a job where he can afford the red tag to linger while he gets an attorney, dukes this issue out in court, and wins.


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Another approach is to let the affordable housing advocates see how a new code is going to drive up the price of housing with no PROVEN benefits.

City council, Habitat, builders association, ABC, ECT.


----------



## BryanMD (Dec 31, 2007)

referring to the arbitrary pseudo law applied to the OP:


LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Once upon a time, the inspector reigned supreme, and in this situation, they still do. It was suggested by another poster the OP needs a job where he can afford the red tag to linger while he gets an attorney, dukes this issue out in court, and wins.


I think that was MDShunk and I too would love to see it happen.

I'm not opposed to a limit and can envision quite a few scenario's where it would have been a great improvement.
The 80% rule for (known VA) continuous and X (150%?) for unknown loads; but an absolute value to be applied could be a GoodThing. 

If there were a limit applied it would at least stop all the threads on the Q.


----------



## jrclen (Oct 23, 2007)

BryanMD said:


> I'm not opposed to a limit and can envision quite a few scenario's where it would have been a great improvement.


So if I have a customer who wants me to install 60 receptacle outlets in his bedroom just so he has a big choice on where to plug in his 60 watt lamp, you want to dictate by code that I have to install 10 circuits to feed them? What happened to the idea that we are professionals?


----------



## Idaho Abe (Nov 28, 2007)

*Code question*

All codes have to be available to public for review. If not available call State level and inform local city council of their defiencies.


----------



## obi-wan (Jan 24, 2008)

Is this a lighting retrofit or new house?


----------



## jrclen (Oct 23, 2007)

obi-wan said:


> Is this a lighting retrofit or new house?


Does that make a difference where you are? I have read in the forums that some states or localities have special rules for remodeling. Not here.


----------



## a-bulb (Feb 13, 2008)

romexrocket said:


> The county where most of my work is located enforces this rule, despite their is no code to back it up. If I have 6 recess cans in a kitchen ceiling / rated 75 w max lamp in each = 6 x 75= 450 watts divided by 120v= little less than 4 amps roughly. 15 a breaker @ 80% gives me 12 amps to work with, which leaves me 8 available amps left on circuit to utilize. I am limited to 6 drops according to them. (them meaning inspector in this county) I have tried to explain this to them but have no success other than a respone stating its always been this way and we are not gonna change a thing. So unfortunately I end up with a 40 circuit loadcenter slam full of breakers in a 2500 sq ft house and a little less profit in my pocket.
> 
> CRAZY RIGHT? :whistling2:


so if you had 12 rec lights x 75 w = 7.5 amps. on a switch you would have to split them up on 2 cir and install a relay. How stupid is that! :bangin:


----------



## vuvanhieu (Mar 1, 2008)

hi all.
i need relay's document.can u help me?
thank


----------



## jbfan (Jan 22, 2007)

vuvanhieu said:


> hi all.
> i need relay's document.can u help me?
> thank


It helps to start a new thread,and provide more information!


----------



## french connection!! (Dec 13, 2007)

I guess we are lucky here in california with title 24 , it would 6 fluorescent recessed light !! 6 x 26 w .


----------



## Mogie (May 26, 2010)

romexrocket said:


> I dont think id have much luck at the council meeting. and I believe you can only load a branch circuit up to 80% of the fuse size or breaker, if im not mistaken, someone correct me if im wrong. 1 reason I joined this forum is to stand corrected..I can never know it all and willing to learn all I can.


 Although it's customary to limit new load installations to 80% of breaker size, it is not codified in the NEC. In fact, if you know the actual loads or all are convenience receps, you can legally put _any_ number of receps on one circuit. Nowhere in the code is the number of receps per circuit limited. Circuits are rated at 180va per outlet in the feeder calculations only, in order to determine service or feeder size.
480sparky is totally right - they can't just make it up as they go. You are correct, however, in that, if the NEC is adopted in your jurisdiction, it is a _minimum_ standard, to which they can add local requirements, but _they must be in writing, adopted, and available to you upon request. _I'd contact the local AHJ (not your inspector) to request local amendments to the NEC.
I hope this helps...


----------



## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Let's try to not reply to old threads if they have sat for this long. 

Please check the dates for the threads you are replying to.


----------

