# Low Voltage Lighting system from 50 years ago.



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

There is a panel of relays that the switching goes too if it's the system I'm thinking of.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

electricbysullivan said:


> A house from the neighborhood on my street has an issue. All the lights are stuck on and the off lights are stuck off.
> 
> It appears a low voltage system is in the house from the 50s or 60s. Looks like in the one room is a GE remote control wiring system. Odd looking sideways mounted plates with an on button on top of an off button. Look to be push button.
> 
> Got any ideas?


Check this link to identify the system you are dealing with:

http://www.kyleswitchplates.com/identify-your-low-voltage-lighting-system/


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Start with Touchplate.

Google the name.

Expect to find master consoles in master bedroom and or kitchen.

Ditto for GE's scheme.

Sticky contacts -- the logic uses momentary switches to switch latching relays located nearby the panels -- or, just perhaps, near the fixtures -- either way ....

Your troubles are due to the fact that you can't switch logical states when the momentary switches are STUCK. 

Yup. 

That's their primary itch.

The system you're looking at is well past its design life -- *and very likely needs nothing more exotic than a replacement of the trims* -- true 'cake' work.

When faced with this situation, the usual play is to panic -- and to start REALLY damaging the installation... as the noob has no conception of what's going on.

%%%%%%%

The field switches -- that you're looking at -- are MOMENTARY contacts... nothing like the switches you're used to.

The field switches are to send pulses to latching relays... which can burn out... put your nose on them... if they've let the smoke out... they can be easily replaced.

The actual field wiring // low voltage cable -- typically a seven-conductor with white as the common -- is virtually immune from age. 

You can re-boot the system by flipping the 'magic' breaker that powers the solenoids/// relays.

You should expect to still find many associated C/Bs for the daughter loads.

Keep an eye out for DIY panic driven self-help -- and the usual lost noob handy man.

Bring a sketch pad,... and plenty of circuit wire numbers... 

It sounds like this house has overloaded relays at every hand.

This locked up status usually inspires the HO to POUND on the switches -- unto breakage -- as necessary.

He can't find anyone at Big Box Hardware who has a CLUE as to what he's dealing with.

Once you dope out the SIMPLE relay logic of Touchplate or GE... all becomes easy.

( Touchplate and GE are not compatible systems, BTW. )


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## inetdog (Apr 13, 2016)

The typical setup uses mechanically latching relays. If the control power source goes then all the relays stay in their last set state.


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## electricbysullivan (Aug 16, 2013)

I actually have a touchplate system in my parents house. It rarely messes up. The occasional dining room chandelier light stuck on for half a day or the foyer light that never shuts off is our once a year problem.

Our house was a custom split level built for a family that owned a local electrical supply. So it has ancient gizmos that act up. 

It looks like since this used to be a posh Jewish neighborhood before we moved in 40 plus years ago, all the houses have them. Most must have ripped them out. Mr Uhr must have sold these systems to all his neighbors originally.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

electricbysullivan said:


> I actually have a touchplate system in my parents house. It rarely messes up. The occasional dining room chandelier light stuck on for half a day or the foyer light that never shuts off is our once a year problem.
> 
> Our house was a custom split level built for a family that owned a local electrical supply. So it has ancient gizmos that act up.
> 
> ...


They are terrific -- but the noobs don't understand them.

Googling Touchplate is all too much for them.

Industrial electricians would be all fine with them -- as they're dialled in to momentary contact logic and relays -- every which way.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

Seeing as how the latching relays are all on or all off, I'd say there is no control power. Likely a bad transformer.


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## inetdog (Apr 13, 2016)

InPhase277 said:


> Seeing as how the latching relays are all on or all off, I'd say there is no control power. Likely a bad transformer.


Or a fuse.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

inetdog said:


> Or a fuse.


Possible, but fuses very rarely just blow for no good reason. If it is a fuse, there is probably a deeper problem.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

telsa said:


> The field switches are to send pulses to latching relays... which can burn out... put your nose on them... if they've let the smoke out... they can be easily replaced.


Are the relays themselves latching relays (or alternating relays) or is the panel made with basic relays, the circuit arrangement doing the latching / alternating?


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

GE Low Voltage FAQ

Do I need one relay for every switch?

Yes, unless you are wiring the switches to control the same lights from different rooms. For example, if you have a switch in the master bedroom and a switch in the living room which both control the living room lights, they can be wired together so you can turn them off from either location, but they only need one relay.

Do I need one transformer for every relay?

No, you can wire up to five relays to one transformer, depending upon your setup. Check with your electrician to confirm how much is safe.

Do I need to buy 3-way low voltage switches?

GE switches can be wired in parallel to create a three way switch setup, such as when you need a switch at both the top and the bottom of stairs or at either end of a hallway. So as long as both switches are wired to the same relay, this will work as a 3-way, 4-way, etc., setup.

I have Bryant switches - can I replace my relays and switches with GE parts?

Yes, the GE parts are compatible with Bryant systems. They are based on the same type of low voltage wiring setup.

Are the new GE replacement switches the same size as the old ones?

No, they are slightly larger. Do not attempt to jam the new switches into the old straps - this will cause the buttons to stick and will cause the relay to burn out. The good news is that you no longer need straps if you are using the switches with the new style switchplates.

Does GE still make the old mini rocker switches?

No, those were discontinued decades ago. The new switches still have the same functionality but feature two buttons instead of rockers, where one button is the equivalent of the "on" rocker direction and the other button is the "off" direction.

Is a GE low voltage system grounded?

The relays are grounded, but the switches are not.

Do you have instructions for installing these parts?

Yes, please see the low voltage wiring instructions which are free with purchase - just add the ones you need to your cart for no charge.

The new GE switches have two buttons - how many switches do I need?

2 GE Low Volt Buttons Correlate with Old Style Rockers GE's new switches function the same as the old mini rockers, so even though the switch is now split into two buttons, it is still considered one switch. Each direction on the old rockers - up/on or down/off correspond to one of the new buttons on the replacement switches.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I have a funeral home customer that I have changed a few of the GE ones out. Works well once you understand it. Nothing particularly complicated about it.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

I've only encountered it once. Still works like a charm so all I did was play with it in shock and awe.


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## Sparky J (May 17, 2011)

If it's touch plate the older relays can become tricky with age it seems that they get dust/junk inside them and it effects the mechanism. The new relays are supposed to not have that same problem. The other issue is the main power supply transformer can also go bad (not totally fail but out out wrong output voltage) and not function properly so the relays don't function properly as well. Check out the touchplate website if it is touchplate they do have some basic troubleshooting info. on it.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Biggest problem I have had is when the original installer put relays in random spots in the attic and they were under a couple feet of blown in insulation or the relays were covered with roof or trusses when the houses were remodeled. It's always what has been done in the years after the install.


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## mtdewmn (9 mo ago)

telsa said:


> Start with Touchplate.
> 
> Google the name.
> 
> ...


Sorry for posting on an old thread, but desperate times...well you know. I have a Touchplate system, which I'm sure was installed around the time the house was built, 1948. Last night we had a thunderstorm roll through and lost power. I noticed this morning that none of my touchplate switches were working, but my front of house and driveway porchlights were on. These are on separate switches and separate relays.My transverter, which is a Touchplate model TVR-1 (Feb 1972), was hot to the touch. I've shut the breaker off that powers the touchplate box, so there is no power going to it. Anyway, I'm a "noob" HO when it comes to this particular type systems and I thought before I got my hammer out, I might try asking someone with obviously more knowledge than myself. So in short, I have 2 porchlights stuck on, and nothing else will come on, no response at all from the switches, no clicking on the relays.


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

@mtdewmn this is a pros only site so I have to ask you to please take your inquiry to our sister site where we have an Electrical section and plenty of pros to assist. It's on www.DIYChatroom.com.
Thanks and good luck with your project.
This thread is closed.


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