# Conduit vs. Romex



## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

Leftyselectric said:


> My work is in Chicago and code states everything must be in conduit. No Romex only for temp. So because of this I don't have any experience with Romex. Just heard the union talk about how horrible it is. So when I leave the city to do work in the burbs should I learn the ropes of Romex or stay with the conduit as much as possible.
> 
> lefty


It's just another thing to learn. Once you figure it out it's easy and much faster than conduit. And honestly, it's not hard to figure out.


----------



## mikeh32 (Feb 16, 2009)

um, in the suburbs its conduit too.....


----------



## Leftyselectric (Aug 19, 2011)

mikeh32 said:


> um, in the suburbs its conduit too.....


I'm talking far suburbs. Like Kankakee county if your from Chicago. And outside of cook county it's not code. Although I still use it.

lefty


----------



## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

Your local is ********.


----------



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

conduit vs. romex is kinda like Ford vs Chevrolet (imo).. the guys that run pipe believe its the only way to go,wheras the romex guys will defend their position by sayin its faster and easier, and just as safe when installed correctly. My suggestion would be this, find out what the standard is in the area that you move to. if its compliant then adjust your wiring methods accordingly. if you insist on bending pipe in an area that everybody runs romex, i dont think you can compete with pricing.. again IMO


----------



## Leftyselectric (Aug 19, 2011)

erics37 said:


> It's just another thing to learn. Once you figure it out it's easy and much faster than conduit. And honestly, it's not hard to figure out.


I know it would b easy to figure out. In the union they would preach that Romex was destroying the electrical field. By making it possible for anybody to throw up wires. While bending conduit requires skills and also provides many more jobs.

lefty


----------



## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

Frasbee said:


> Your local is ********.


Chicago code is ********.


----------



## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

Leftyselectric said:


> In the union they would preach that Romex was destroying the electrical field.


I'm in the union and I haven't heard anything of the sort :blink:


----------



## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Leftyselectric said:


> I know it would b easy to figure out. In the union they would preach that Romex was destroying the electrical field. By making it possible for anybody to throw up wires. While bending conduit requires skills and also provides many more jobs.
> 
> lefty


Provide more jobs??? They can't be serious???

At the risk of a contentious union discussion this attitude is appalling!
This would be like suggesting all auto parts stores and home centers should also be made illegal. 
This attitude is based simply on the fact that certain folks in your area want to have a strong hold on electrical work, and is using it's influence and force to keep it that way. PERIOD.


----------



## Leftyselectric (Aug 19, 2011)

erics37 said:


> I'm in the union and I haven't heard anything of the sort :blink:


And what local would that be.

lefty


----------



## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

erics37 said:


> I'm in the union and I haven't heard anything of the sort :blink:


You're also not in ChiTown. 
The more I hear about the place the weirder I think it is.


----------



## eutecticalloy (Dec 12, 2010)

I run a lot of conduit in residential homes. I just don't see how some one can bend, add couplings, strap, mount metallic boxes, pull wires and terminate devices in the amount of time it takes to run romex, staple it, pull it into plastic boxes and terminate devices.


----------



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

Leftyselectric said:


> I know it would b easy to figure out. In the union they would preach that Romex was destroying the electrical field. By making it possible for anybody to throw up wires. While bending conduit requires skills and also provides many more jobs.
> 
> lefty


 what they dont preach is this... running romex you must have everything in place accurately, no chases later on in the game without cutting finishes. although i believe bending pipe IS an art, I would totally disagree with the statement that ANYBODY can throw up wires.throw all the wires you want, but you still gotta make it work in the end


----------



## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

BuzzKill said:


> Chicago code is ********.


I retract my previous statement and stand behind this one.


----------



## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

Leftyselectric said:


> And what local would that be.
> 
> lefty


932



Speedy Petey said:


> You're also not in ChiTown.
> The more I hear about the place the weirder I think it is.


Perhaps.



rnr electric said:


> I would totally disagree with the statement that ANYBODY can throw up wires.


I'm with you. I've thrown up lots of times but usually it's alcohol and Mexican food. Never wires


----------



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

erics37 said:


> 932
> 
> 
> Perhaps.
> ...


 agreed.. i could have worded that better:laughing:


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

EMT in a wood framed building is dumb. Really dumb.


----------



## Leftyselectric (Aug 19, 2011)

Peter D said:


> EMT in a wood framed building is dumb. Really dumb.


Why is it "dumb"

lefty


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Leftyselectric said:


> Why is it "dumb"
> 
> lefty


Because I said so. :thumbsup:

Really though, it does not add any practical value to a dwelling unit. I know, the argument of "future upgrading is easier" always gets pulled out of the bag, but a new home wired to current standards shouldn't need upgrading.


----------



## Leftyselectric (Aug 19, 2011)

Peter D said:


> Because I said so. :thumbsup:
> 
> Really though, it does not add any practical value to a dwelling unit. I know, the argument of "future upgrading is easier" always gets pulled out of the bag, but a new home wired to current standards shouldn't need upgrading.


What about somehow a faulty space heater causes a fire and with Romex the whole wall burns down. While in the conduit it just burns itself out. (seen a video of that in a class before.)

lefty


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Peter D said:


> EMT in a wood framed building is dumb. Really dumb.


Agreed, same with using metal boxes with romex, dumb. 



Leftyselectric said:


> What about somehow a faulty space heater causes a fire and with Romex the whole wall burns down.


So what were all the other variables? Talk of a video of romex on fire proves nothing to me without knowing the variables.


----------



## Voltech (Nov 30, 2009)

Leftyselectric said:


> My work is in Chicago and code states everything must be in conduit. No Romex only for temp. So because of this I don't have any experience with Romex. Just heard the union talk about how horrible it is. So when I leave the city to do work in the burbs should I learn the ropes of Romex or stay with the conduit as much as possible.
> 
> lefty


How long would it take to pipe and pull wire for a simple 1500 sq ft home?


----------



## Voltech (Nov 30, 2009)

Peter D said:


> Because I said so. :thumbsup:
> 
> Really though, it does not add any practical value to a dwelling unit. I know, the argument of "future upgrading is easier" always gets pulled out of the bag, but a new home wired to current standards shouldn't need upgrading.


When I 1st started in the trade, the contractor I worked for would install the door bell and attic light on its own circuit and run 12-3 to both.


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Voltech said:


> When I 1st started in the trade, the contractor I worked for would install the door bell and attic light on its own circuit and run 12-3 to both.


It's never a bad idea to run a spare circuit to the attic if the budget allows, but that's not going to happen in a tract or spec house.


----------



## crazyboy (Nov 8, 2008)

Leftyselectric said:


> What about somehow a faulty space heater causes a fire and with Romex the whole wall burns down. While in the conduit it just burns itself out. (seen a video of that in a class before.)
> 
> lefty


Or the breaker trips? What if the burning inside the conduit heats it up? You're example is kind of out of the ordinary. Under normal circumstances what would make conduit so much better?


----------



## That's It? (Aug 31, 2011)

Leftyselectric said:


> My work is in Chicago and code states everything must be in conduit. No Romex only for temp. So because of this I don't have any experience with Romex. Just heard the union talk about how horrible it is. So when I leave the city to do work in the burbs should I learn the ropes of Romex or stay with the conduit as much as possible.
> 
> lefty


 Why would you not want to learn something new?


----------



## goose134 (Nov 12, 2007)

People, I'm here to tell you Chicago code is not THAT much different from NEC. You can't get past the EMT in resi, and I understand that. The big differences are as follows:

Conductor fill: Maximum wires in a pipe (ANY pipe aside from control circuits and short nipples) is 9 wires. Not CCC, but 9 wires.

Plenum ceilings: must be stamped boxes with no holes, compression fittings, and flexible metallic tubing.

Fire Alarm: All pipe

The differences are fading here in Chi-town as we get more and more in line with NEC.

Also understand that EMT is not mandated in the code. It's just that they eliminate other possibilities with restrictive language. I could use MC but not in lengths greater than 6 feet. 

Chicago code isn't ********, you're just not used to it. NYC probably isn't that much different. Though I could be wrong.


----------



## goose134 (Nov 12, 2007)

Oh, and we can use Romex to tap into existing K&T using lengths 3 feet or less.

Though what you'd ground to remains a mystery.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

goose134 said:


> People, I'm here to tell you Chicago code is not THAT much different from NEC. You can't get past the EMT in resi, and I understand that. The big differences are as follows:
> 
> Conductor fill: Maximum wires in a pipe (ANY pipe aside from control circuits and short nipples) is 9 wires. Not CCC, but 9 wires.
> 
> ...


Ah, those are all huge differences and clearly mostly aimed at making more work.





> Also understand that EMT is not mandated in the code. It's just that they eliminate other possibilities with restrictive language. I could use MC but not in lengths greater than 6 feet.


You should run for office, you can spin well.:laughing: 


> Chicago code isn't ********, you're just not used to it.


Not ********, just entirely aimed at making work for the union members.


----------



## Spannerz (Aug 13, 2011)

In New Zealand/Australia EVERYTHING is Romex. Our equivalent is TPS/PVC=Romex. All circuit protection/fire protection, comes down to the correct cable size, and circuit breaker GFLI combinations, initial testing and inspections. We haven't used steel conduit for 60-70years.


----------



## Leftyselectric (Aug 19, 2011)

crazyboy said:


> Or the breaker trips? What if the burning inside the conduit heats it up? You're example is kind of out of the ordinary. Under normal circumstances what would make conduit so much better?


Don't know why. The video was just a wall with Romex and a wall with conduit. The space heater somehow sparked a fire. The Romex wall completely burned down while the conduit wall burned inside the pipe shortly before just burning out.

lefty


----------



## Leftyselectric (Aug 19, 2011)

BBQ said:


> Ah, those are all huge differences and clearly mostly aimed at making more work.
> 
> You should run for office, you can spin well.:laughing:
> 
> Not ********, just entirely aimed at making work for the union members.


And I don't understand what's so awful about creating more work for the electricians. Were the electricians so we are the ones who will reap the benefits. I'm thinking lets say there wasn't any Romex just conduit than the customer wouldn't have a choice but to pay for the conduit and not have a problem with it because that is what is used for electricity. In a world without Romex would overall in my eyes be better for the electrician and it's not like we would be ripping anybody off. Also I'm not here making this a non union vs union topic. I just don't think it would be a bad thing to give all of us a little more job security and make us all that more valuable.

lefty


----------



## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Leftyselectric said:


> What about somehow a faulty space heater causes a fire and with Romex the whole wall burns down. While in the conduit it just burns itself out. (seen a video of that in a class before.)
> 
> lefty





Leftyselectric said:


> Don't know why. The video was just a wall with Romex and a wall with conduit. The space heater somehow sparked a fire. The Romex wall completely burned down while the conduit wall burned inside the pipe shortly before just burning out.
> 
> lefty


So you're telling us that a space heater, presumably sitting in a room, starts a fire and this fire ONLY follows the path of the wiring through the receptacle and into the wall ???? :laughing: 

I want some of this magic fire!


----------



## Leftyselectric (Aug 19, 2011)

electricmanscott said:


> So you're telling us that a space heater, presumably sitting in a room, starts a fire and this fire ONLY follows the path of the wiring through the receptacle and into the wall ???? :laughing:
> 
> I want some of this magic fire!


No that's not what I'm telling you. I don't recall the variables, however I did see the video.

lefty


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Let me guess who produced the video.


----------



## CraigV (May 12, 2011)

Leftyselectric said:


> What about somehow a faulty space heater causes a fire and with Romex the whole wall burns down. While in the conduit it just burns itself out. (seen a video of that in a class before.)
> 
> lefty





crazyboy said:


> Or the breaker trips? What if the burning inside the conduit heats it up? You're example is kind of out of the ordinary. Under normal circumstances what would make conduit so much better?





Leftyselectric said:


> Don't know why. The video was just a wall with Romex and a wall with conduit. The space heater somehow sparked a fire. The Romex wall completely burned down while the conduit wall burned inside the pipe shortly before just burning out.
> 
> lefty


Well that certainly was an informative class. Not one person bothered to ask what "somehow" sparked the fire? Do you get lynched as a heretic in Chicago for questioning such things?


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Leftyselectric said:


> And I don't understand what's so awful about creating more work for the electricians. Were the electricians so we are the ones who will reap the benefits. I'm thinking lets say there wasn't any Romex just conduit than the customer wouldn't have a choice but to pay for the conduit and not have a problem with it because that is what is used for electricity. In a world without Romex would overall in my eyes be better for the electrician and it's not like we would be ripping anybody off. Also I'm not here making this a non union vs union topic. I just don't think it would be a bad thing to give all of us a little more job security and make us all that more valuable.
> 
> lefty


It's simple. The electrical system belongs to the customer, not the electrician. I don't believe in "job security" when a gun is pointed at someone else to do something a certain way. 

FWIW, there is a similar "make work" rule that exists in Massachusetts, only it benefits the plumbers of that state. No non-metallic plumbing pipe, both for sewer and supply, is allowed in any commercial building. Furthermore, the first joint in the sewer line inside the building must be the old fashioned lead and oakem type of joint that existed before the dawn of no-hub cast pipe.


----------



## CraigV (May 12, 2011)

Peter D said:


> It's simple. The electrical system belongs to the customer, not the electrician. I don't believe in "job security" when a gun is pointed at someone else to do something a certain way.
> 
> FWIW, there is a similar "make work" rule that exists in Massachusetts, only it benefits the plumbers of that state. No non-metallic plumbing pipe, both for sewer and supply, is allowed in any commercial building. Furthermore, the first joint in the sewer line inside the building must be the old fashioned lead and oakem type of joint that existed before the dawn of no-hub cast pipe.


Hopefully the farrier will do a good job of shodding the draught-horses charged with pulling the electrician's wagon to the jobsite. 

The possibilities of old mixing with new are intriguing...does the plumber have to don a spacesuit to avoid lead poisoning while leading the joint? It's also amazing that it's a 100% no-no to use lead-based solder for supply piping, but the waste water is A-okay-fine to be contaminated on the way out of the house.


----------



## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

There is no question in my mind that conduit/wire is a safer installation.


There is also no question that the labor union in Chicago was instumental in passing this local code. I have no problem with it because it doesn't affect me (much).


There is also no question that Romex cn be a safe, less expensive, easier installation.




> I don't understand what's so awful about creating more work for the electricians.


 
Creating work is *ALWAYS* short sighted and a waste of resources. In the big picture, we *all *need to be productive.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Peter D said:


> It's simple. The electrical system belongs to the customer, not the electrician. I don't believe in "job security" when a gun is pointed at someone else to do something a certain way.



:notworthy:

Well put.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Leftyselectric said:


> And I don't understand what's so awful about creating more work for the electricians.


Then I doubt I could explain it to you.







> Were the electricians so we are the ones who will reap the benefits.


Yes, at the expense of others.






> I'm thinking lets say there wasn't any Romex just conduit than the customer wouldn't have a choice but to pay for the conduit and not have a problem with it because that is what is used for electricity. In a world without Romex would overall in my eyes be better for the electrician *and it's not like we would be ripping anybody off.*


Ah yeah we would be ripping people off, because we would be telling a lie (NM is not safe) to force a law into place.







> Also I'm not here making this a non union vs union topic. I just don't think it would be a bad thing to give all of us a little more job security and make us all that more valuable.


Create your own value, do not use the code to.


----------



## Mshea (Jan 17, 2011)

We have a world of electrical installations in combustible buildings that prove Chicago has over regulated the wiring of houses. It is assumed that when a major fire occurs in a wood building that everything inside the building goes with the structure. Loomex (Romex) rarely if ever faults between outlets. Most electrical fire are caused at the connections or devices so if your heater starts a fire I wonder how feeding it with cable or EMT lets the whole wall burn?
How is it fair to the customers to pay a huge premium to wire a house in Chicago vs a house 50 miles out of their jurisdiction? I imagine the cost is close to double to wire in EMT. A real good fault over EMT can cause the couplings and connectors to shower the area in sparks so at least until the raceway, connectors and couplings spot weld a first fault in EMT is probably a greater hazard of starting a fire than romex.
Maybe this was started by the great fire and perpetuated by protectionist sentiments but the wiring of houses in EMT as a safer method is hardly born out by supporting data.

Isn't it Illinois that won't adopt AFCI's for cost considerations? I wonder how that fits into the Safety Claim?

Just saying there is a contradiction here


----------



## mdfriday (May 14, 2007)

Mshea said:


> We have a world of electrical installations in combustible buildings that prove Chicago has over regulated the wiring of houses. It is assumed that when a major fire occurs in a wood building that everything inside the building goes with the structure. Loomex (Romex) rarely if ever faults between outlets. Most electrical fire are caused at the connections or devices so if your heater starts a fire I wonder how feeding it with cable or EMT lets the whole wall burn?
> How is it fair to the customers to pay a huge premium to wire a house in Chicago vs a house 50 miles out of their jurisdiction? *I imagine the cost is close to double to wire in EMT.* A real good fault over EMT can cause the couplings and connectors to shower the area in sparks so at least until the raceway, connectors and couplings spot weld a first fault in EMT is probably a greater hazard of starting a fire than romex.
> Maybe this was started by the great fire and perpetuated by protectionist sentiments but the wiring of houses in EMT as a safer method is hardly born out by supporting data.
> 
> ...


:no:

and

:no:

We have gone round and round on this.....The answer is still the same.


----------



## Leftyselectric (Aug 19, 2011)

Mshea said:


> We have a world of electrical installations in combustible buildings that prove Chicago has over regulated the wiring of houses. It is assumed that when a major fire occurs in a wood building that everything inside the building goes with the structure. Loomex (Romex) rarely if ever faults between outlets. Most electrical fire are caused at the connections or devices so if your heater starts a fire I wonder how feeding it with cable or EMT lets the whole wall burn?
> How is it fair to the customers to pay a huge premium to wire a house in Chicago vs a house 50 miles out of their jurisdiction? I imagine the cost is close to double to wire in EMT. A real good fault over EMT can cause the couplings and connectors to shower the area in sparks so at least until the raceway, connectors and couplings spot weld a first fault in EMT is probably a greater hazard of starting a fire than romex.
> Maybe this was started by the great fire and perpetuated by protectionist sentiments but the wiring of houses in EMT as a safer method is hardly born out by supporting data.
> 
> ...


EMT is probably a greater hazard of starting a fire than romex. 
Never heard that before. What happens when a nail is driven into the wall and rips into the Romex or a rat chews up all the wire in your attic.

lefty


----------



## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

Mshea said:


> ....
> Isn't it Illinois that won't adopt AFCI's for cost considerations? I wonder how that fits into the Safety Claim? ...


Illinois does not have a state wide electrical code. It is left up to the cities and counties.


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Leftyselectric said:


> EMT is probably a greater hazard of starting a fire than romex.
> Never heard that before. What happens when a nail is driven into the wall and rips into the Romex or a rat chews up all the wire in your attic.
> 
> lefty


I think you're a troll. :yes:


----------



## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

Leftyselectric said:


> EMT is probably a greater hazard of starting a fire than romex.
> Never heard that before. What happens when a nail is driven into the wall and rips into the Romex or a rat chews up all the wire in your attic.
> 
> lefty


Man I've lived in places that still have knob and tube wiring. If that $hit has lasted as long as it has, that's all the evidence I need to say your argument is garbage. I'd say the vast majority of the United States has either romex or knob and tube wiring, and will probably be demo'ed before they _ever_ cause a fire.


----------



## Leftyselectric (Aug 19, 2011)

Frasbee said:


> Man I've lived in places that still have knob and tube wiring. If that $hit has lasted as long as it has, that's all the evidence I need to say your argument is garbage. I'd say the vast majority of the United States has either romex or knob and tube wiring, and will probably be demo'ed before they ever cause a fire.


That is very true and a good point. However do a little research into electrical fires and tell me what was used in the home

lefty


----------



## Leftyselectric (Aug 19, 2011)

Peter D said:


> I think you're a troll. :yes:


I think you're a queefdogg. :yea:

lefty


----------



## mdfriday (May 14, 2007)

Leftyselectric said:


> That is very true and a good point. However do a little research into electrical fires and tell me what was used in the home
> 
> lefty



Dude, don't be stupid. Electrical fires can happen when conduit is used.

Drywall screws can go through conduit. Someone can forget to ream the cut end of a conduit, the wire could get pinched in the box, pinched on the end of the connector, etc, etc, it happens.


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Leftyselectric said:


> I think you're a queefdogg. :yea:
> 
> lefty


Cool, thanks for proving me correct. :laughing:


----------



## Leftyselectric (Aug 19, 2011)

mdfriday said:


> Dude, don't be stupid. Electrical fires can happen when conduit is used.
> 
> Drywall screws can go through conduit. Someone can forget to ream the cut end of a conduit, the wire could get pinched in the box, pinched on the end of the connector, etc, etc, it happens.


I've never seen a drywall screw go through conduit. Ever. And I didn't start this thread for the reason it's being used for. But let's just forget about everything we know. Bare wire in the walls. Or wires inside a metal pipe. What would you choose.

lefty


----------



## Leftyselectric (Aug 19, 2011)

Peter D said:


> Cool, thanks for proving me correct. :laughing:


I can see you are just to cool for school. But what do I know I'm a troll.

lefty


----------



## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

Leftyselectric said:


> That is very true and a good point. However do a little research into electrical fires and tell me what was used in the home
> 
> lefty


According to the NFPA, Chicago, IL is in the top 20 cities *twice* (not including the mining fire) that had the largest and deadliest fires in United States history.

And according the to homeland security: CONCLUSION
Confined structure fires are predominately the result of cooking fires and, where additional information was given, inattentive behavior.

I was curious myself, but I don't care enough to look beyond the first google page.

I'd love to see the labor cost of demoing flooded houses that require EMT over romex, though.


----------



## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

Mshea said:


> ...
> How is it fair to the customers to pay a huge premium to wire a house in Chicago vs a house 50 miles out of their jurisdiction? I imagine the cost is close to double to wire in EMT...


I have talked to a number of estimators for larger contractors that work under the "Chicago" code and also work under the NEC. The premium for EMT is no where near 100%. They tell me it is between 15 and 20%. 
Yes I know that all you guys who use cable wiring methods don't believe that, but these are guys who do both methods. 

Our city does not have a pipe code for residential, but we do have one for commercial. A owner was complaining about the cost difference because we require EMT and do not permit NM or MC. They had the job priced by a out of area contractor using MC and a local contractor using EMT. They wanted to show a huge difference to push us to change our code. The difference between the quotes was less than 5%. Now if they had priced in in NM it would have been cheaper than the MC, but I don't think it would have been a lot cheaper than the MC


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> I have talked to a number of estimators for larger contractors that work under the "Chicago" code and also work under the NEC. The premium for EMT is no where near 100%. They tell me it is between 15 and 20%.
> Yes I know that all you guys who use cable wiring methods don't believe that, but these are guys who do both methods.
> 
> Our city does not have a pipe code for residential, but we do have one for commercial. A owner was complaining about the cost difference because we require EMT and do not permit NM or MC. They had the job priced by a out of area contractor using MC and a local contractor using EMT. They wanted to show a huge difference to push us to change our code. The difference between the quotes was less than 5%. Now if they had priced in in NM it would have been cheaper than the MC, but I don't think it would have been a lot cheaper than the MC


The only way I can see that being possible is with cheap labor.


----------



## mdfriday (May 14, 2007)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> I have talked to a number of estimators for larger contractors that work under the "Chicago" code and also work under the NEC. The premium for EMT is no where near 100%. They tell me it is between 15 and 20%.
> Yes I know that all you guys who use cable wiring methods don't believe that, but these are guys who do both methods.
> 
> Our city does not have a pipe code for residential, but we do have one for commercial. A owner was complaining about the cost difference because we require EMT and do not permit NM or MC. They had the job priced by a out of area contractor using MC and a local contractor using EMT. They wanted to show a huge difference to push us to change our code. The difference between the quotes was less than 5%. Now if they had priced in in NM it would have been cheaper than the MC, but I don't think it would have been a lot cheaper than the MC


I am one such estimator, and you are spot on. Actually, the adder is typically about 8 hours to a 3,000 square foot house. Material is $500ish.

Usually it is about $1000-$1500 to do conduit in lieu of romex. (on a $7000 tract home) That is a fact, and we've done it both ways. Most subdivisions in ahjs that allow romex, require us to provide an adder if people opt for EMT.

This has been discussed to death. Usually, it seems, it comes up about every 6 months.

ECs that have done tract housing as a business segment have done it this way for years, and made heaps of money. I think they know what they are doing.

Now, if it is a custom home, it is more likely to be about a 15%-25% adder for EMT over Romex.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> The premium for EMT is no where near 100%. They tell me it is between 15 and 20%.
> Yes I know that all you guys who use cable wiring methods don't believe that, but these are guys who do both methods.


I would be willing to believe 15 to 20 on the electrical contract over the 4 or 5 percent figures you had posted before.


----------



## Leftyselectric (Aug 19, 2011)

I have a question for the Romex guys. How safe is it to run Romex in the insulation itself in the attics? Is that against code? That would have to fire a fire hazard if the run was overloaded I would think.

lefty


----------



## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

Leftyselectric said:


> I have a question for the Romex guys. How safe is it to run Romex in the insulation itself in the attics? Is that against code? That would have to fire a fire hazard if the run was overloaded I would think.
> 
> lefty


Install a conductor of appropriate size and temperature tolerances and you should be fine.


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

No matter how small the price increase is it doesn't change the pointless factor or the fact it wastes customers money or the fact it's slower then cable. 



Leftyselectric said:


> That would have to fire a fire hazard if the run was overloaded I would think.


No it's not.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> the pointless factor



That has a real nice ring to it 'The Pointless Factor" it could be a new TV show, it could be a poem, hell it even describes this forum many days. :laughing:


----------



## Island Electric (May 9, 2011)

*


Peter D said:



The only way I can see that being possible is with cheap labor.

Click to expand...

*Wrong! This what I have been trying to tell you. The money is not what you would think it would be.


----------



## CraigV (May 12, 2011)

Leftyselectric said:


> I have a question for the Romex guys. How safe is it to run Romex in the insulation itself in the attics? Is that against code? That would have to fire a fire hazard if the run was overloaded I would think.
> 
> lefty


I'm not a "Romex guy", but no, it's not against NEC to have NM in insulation.


----------



## Powerfull (Jul 11, 2011)

rnr electric said:


> what they dont preach is this... running romex you must have everything in place accurately, no chases later on in the game without cutting finishes. although i believe bending pipe IS an art, I would totally disagree with the statement that ANYBODY can throw up wires.throw all the wires you want, but you still gotta make it work in the end


I've worked with some guys who can't wire 3 ways and 4 ways but they still call themselves Jmen


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Leftyselectric said:


> I have a question for the Romex guys. How safe is it to run Romex in the insulation itself in the attics? Is that against code? That would have to fire a fire hazard if the run was overloaded I would think.
> 
> lefty


It would be no different than running pipe covered in insulation, the amount of heat to be dissipated is the same.


----------



## Island Electric (May 9, 2011)

Either method is fine to me so long there is work to do. This subject has been beat to death. I have had the chance to see both applications installed in new homes. Some in NorthBrook, IL. and some in East Hampton, NY. Either way I never saw the projects not get done and everything worked when we left. 

The sucky part about Romex is when you need that extra circuit at the other end of the house (pull through existing boxes) or there is and issue with the wire (pull out pull in new) or you just need another switch leg.( just pull it through right up to the box) This where the pipe is worth it's weight in gold.

ON THE OTHER HAND the sucky part about running the emt is after the years go by your body gets beat up. the other thing is during remodel you have to use greenfield and the fish job is much harder to get in and pull around corners.

In the end over here we are not getting the $'s that you would think we get for the pipe job. New housing is rediculous!!!!!!! these clowns are selling cans for 70-80 piped and trimmed with a bulb. Ceiling openings are $45. It is just crazy out there right now. I refuse to play that game. nope not me:no:

What cracks me up the most is all the union hating:blink: I could see if you actually worked for the union at some point and felt like you may have been slighted. Some of you have no idea what it is all about. Let me say this if you walk into a union resi job out here yu better be ready to throw up at least 700' for the day. My record is 500' so looks like I'm out. who else is out:laughing:

My opinion is if your in the union and you can stay working it is a sweet deal:thumbup: If your like me and you suck then start your own business:laughing::whistling2::jester:


----------



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Peter D said:


> The only way I can see that being possible is with cheap labor.


 
We pipe alot of our commercial work, even when wood framed. 
Unless it's a "one time" customer. 

Mainly because we like to be able to add things later. Take this from a true ROMEX RACER, his numbers are close.


----------



## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

BBQ said:


> I would be willing to believe 15 to 20 on the electrical contract over the 4 or 5 percent figures you had posted before.


The older figures came from a small city that used them to justify their "pipe" code.


----------



## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

Leftyselectric said:


> I know it would b easy to figure out. In the union they would preach that Romex was destroying the electrical field. By making it possible for anybody to throw up wires. While bending conduit requires skills and also provides many more jobs.
> 
> lefty




Hell! I learned how to do it.

Just takes time and when done enough.... Any 'Monkey' can do it.
(Just like NM)

Wicked bad argument. (Back to the drawing board)

The trick is- regardless of wiring method- is to know how and why you wire it that way.

That is the skill and training. :thumbsup:


----------



## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

mcclary's electrical said:


> We pipe alot of our commercial work, even when wood framed.
> Unless it's a "one time" customer.
> 
> Mainly because we like to be able to add things later. Take this from a true ROMEX RACER, his numbers are close.


Quite a bit of your work in that picture is going above what I presume is the drop ceiling and running on the outside of the studs. Are houses in Chicago required to have drop ceilings as well? :laughing:


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> We pipe alot of our commercial work, even when wood framed.
> Unless it's a "one time" customer.
> 
> Mainly because we like to be able to add things later. Take this from a true ROMEX RACER, his numbers are close.


If you say it's close, then I believe it.


----------



## Justin L. (Sep 6, 2011)

Running conduit in a house is overkill and such a waste of time and money. Your union is crazy and so are the laws in your town. Romex is better all day every day.


----------



## Justin L. (Sep 6, 2011)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> I have talked to a number of estimators for larger contractors that work under the "Chicago" code and also work under the NEC. The premium for EMT is no where near 100%. They tell me it is between 15 and 20%.
> Yes I know that all you guys who use cable wiring methods don't believe that, but these are guys who do both methods.
> 
> Our city does not have a pipe code for residential, but we do have one for commercial. A owner was complaining about the cost difference because we require EMT and do not permit NM or MC. They had the job priced by a out of area contractor using MC and a local contractor using EMT. They wanted to show a huge difference to push us to change our code. The difference between the quotes was less than 5%. Now if they had priced in in NM it would have been cheaper than the MC, but I don't think it would have been a lot cheaper than the MC



That has to be hogwash if I've ever heard it.


----------



## Leftyselectric (Aug 19, 2011)

Justin L. said:


> Running conduit in a house is overkill and such a waste of time and money. Your union is crazy and so are the laws in your town. Romex is better all day every day.


That is just crazy. "Romex is better all day every day.". Ha can't be serious :no:

lefty


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

BBQ said:


> That has a real nice ring to it 'The Pointless Factor" it could be a new TV show, it could be a poem, hell it even describes this forum many days. :laughing:


Yep :laughing:



don_resqcapt19 said:


> to justify their "pipe" code.


:lol: :lol:


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Justin L. said:


> That has to be hogwash if I've ever heard it.





Leftyselectric said:


> That is just crazy. "Romex is better all day every day.". Ha can't be serious :no:
> 
> lefty


One troll arguing with another. :laughing:


----------



## Leftyselectric (Aug 19, 2011)

Peter D said:


> One troll arguing with another. :laughing:


Coming from a guy that probably couldn't bend a 90 with 1/2 emt that doesn't hold much weight. :laughing:

lefty


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Leftyselectric said:


> Coming from a guy that probably couldn't bend a 90 with 1/2 emt that doesn't hold much weight. :laughing:


If it's not romex, I can't do it. :wacko:


----------



## Justin L. (Sep 6, 2011)

Peter D said:


> One troll arguing with another. :laughing:


I wasn't sure what you ment by troll so i googled it and have to tell you that I'm definetely not one I am not here to bother peeple or argue.


----------



## SEREMan2000 (Aug 29, 2011)

wow i started reading this thinking someone actually wanted advice as to romex...but it turned into a union vrs non union debate and a romex vrs emt debate....woohoo friggin cares if romex is better then emt or emt is better then romex...and as for the union vrs nonunion...ive been in both all i can say union isnt for everyone...i liked it for the while i was in it...my only problem was hearing union guys cry about work...really your going to cry about having to be on call...while there are people who arent even working...wait i got off track what...oh yeah who gives a crap to each there own if you like romex run romex if you like pipe run pipe


----------



## Leftyselectric (Aug 19, 2011)

Peter D said:


> If it's not romex, I can't do it. :wacko:


But u can bend a 90 in Romex right. :laughing:

lefty


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Leftyselectric said:


> But u can bend a 90 in Romex right. :laughing:
> 
> lefty


With my bare hands. :laughing:


----------



## Justin L. (Sep 6, 2011)

hey dont make fun of the guy just because he only runs romex. Theres nothing wrong with that. You live in a screwed up town that requires pipe so you do it that way.


----------



## Island Electric (May 9, 2011)

*


Leftyselectric said:



Coming from a guy that probably couldn't bend a 90 with 1/2 emt that doesn't hold much weight. :laughing:

lefty

Click to expand...

*Thats what the bottom shelf is for at HD.:laughing: Don't mess with the troll detective:laughing:


Some of these guys could never imagine a world with no romex. I can't say I blame them because pipe is non existent in the houses they do. Heck you just scratched the surface with these guys. Wait till you see some of the 200 amp services they are proud of that will be hysterical :laughing:


----------



## Island Electric (May 9, 2011)

*


Peter D said:



With my bare hands. :laughing:

Click to expand...

*don't lie you know you use those mechanic gloves:jester:


----------



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Frasbee said:


> Quite a bit of your work in that picture is going above what I presume is the drop ceiling and running on the outside of the studs. Are houses in Chicago required to have drop ceilings as well? :laughing:


 
Yeah, 10' ceilings but drop ceiling at 8'. That made that job easy:thumbup:


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Yeah, 10' ceilings but drop ceiling at 8'. That made that job easy:thumbup:


A lot easier than cutting it into 3' pieces and running it through studs. Most of the Chicago work is like that so I can't see how your numbers are an exact comparison unless you end up doing a lot of that as well.


----------



## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

Peter D said:


> A lot easier than cutting it into 3' pieces and running it through studs. Most of the Chicago work is like that so I can't see how your numbers are an exact comparison unless you end up doing a lot of that as well.


I have never seen EMT cut into 3' sections to install in a wood stud wall.


----------



## Island Electric (May 9, 2011)

Pete you can stick a 10' piece of 1/2' emt in the wall if need be.(horizontally) Check it out. you bend up a bunch of 90's (receptacles) 10-12" 90's. There are so many scenarios but to say we piece 3' pieces together all day is not right. 1/2" pipe bends and if you need to beat the heck out of it to get in then so be it. Just cut the bad end off. Come on you know it would be fun for about 5 hours:whistling2:


----------



## sority (Sep 6, 2011)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> I have never seen EMT cut into 3' sections to install in a wood stud wall.


Just bend the crap out of a 10' piece, it'll go right in.


----------



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Peter D said:


> If you say it's close, then I believe it.


 
Well thanks buddy:thumbup:

#12 solid black 500' ($55)
#12 solid white 500' ($55)
500' 1/2" EMT ($65)=$175 bucks




(2) 250' rolls of 12/2 NM = $165
(2) 250 rolls of 12/2 MC $230


----------



## Justin L. (Sep 6, 2011)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> I have never seen EMT cut into 3' sections to install in a wood stud wall.


I would imagine I could fit a full 10 foot stick of 1/2" through studs since it's pretty flexible. Heck probably even 3/4" would be easy.


----------



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Justin L. said:


> I would imagine I could fit a full 10 foot stick of 1/2" through studs since it's pretty flexible. Heck probably even 3/4" would be easy.


 

Yep, it will slide right in:thumbup:


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> I have never seen EMT cut into 3' sections to install in a wood stud wall.





Island Electric said:


> Pete you can stick a 10' piece of 1/2' emt in the wall if need be.(horizontally) Check it out. you bend up a bunch of 90's (receptacles) 10-12" 90's. There are so many scenarios but to say we piece 3' pieces together all day is not right.


I stand corrected then. I always thought that's how you did it.


----------



## Justin L. (Sep 6, 2011)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Yep, it will slide right in:thumbup:


you are scaring me


----------



## pugz134 (Nov 8, 2010)

Lefty,

If you are a 134 apprentice, shut the F up. You make us look like idiots. The guys I went through the apprenticeship with are all working. Why? They listen and take pride in the job they do! I'm sure the rope runners take pride in their work. Everyone has their methods. I may not like them. You may not like them. Doesn't matter. They have their rules, we have ours. You aren't working there and they aren't working here. I hope you don't run your mouth like this on a job site, because you would be/should be gone. 


Dan
134 A Card JW


----------



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Justin L. said:


> you are scaring me


 
I just wanna put the tip in


----------



## Island Electric (May 9, 2011)

The only part that blows about doing it in metal studs is when the mexicans do not screw the top of the stud and a 12-15 ft. stud goes crashing to the ground.


----------



## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

Peter D said:


> Because I said so. :thumbsup:
> 
> Really though, it does not add any practical value to a dwelling unit. I know, the argument of "future upgrading is easier" always gets pulled out of the bag, but a new home wired to current standards shouldn't need upgrading.


....conduit is sometimes used when there is a severe rodent problem, romax can not stop a rat from gnawing thru insulation and shorting out wire and starting fire.


----------



## Justin L. (Sep 6, 2011)

mcclary's electrical said:


> I just wanna put the tip in


please stay away from me your gross and God doesn't like that kind of behavior.


----------



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Justin L. said:


> please stay away from me your gross and God doesn't like that kind of behavior.


 

God doesn't scare me


----------



## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> God doesn't scare me


We all know that you are JESTING.


----------



## Island Electric (May 9, 2011)

*


Peter D said:



I stand corrected then. I always thought that's how you did it.

Click to expand...

*There are dudes around here that you walk away for a couple few hours and come back and almost can't believe the amount of pipe work that is roughed in. 

Then there is me the ex roper.:laughing: not so fast and way to pretty. Oh well!


----------



## Leftyselectric (Aug 19, 2011)

Peter D said:


> With my bare hands. :laughing:


Well I was wrong about you then. 

lefty


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Island Electric said:


> There are dudes around here that you walk away for a couple few hours and come back and almost can't believe the amount of pipe work that is roughed in.


It's pretty easy when you don't strap it down.


----------



## eutecticalloy (Dec 12, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Well thanks buddy:thumbup:
> 
> #12 solid black 500' ($55)
> #12 solid white 500' ($55)
> ...


What about connectors and straps?


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Mshea said:


> Isn't it Illinois that won't adopt AFCI's for cost considerations? I wonder how that fits into the Safety Claim?


Nope it's Indiana.


----------



## Island Electric (May 9, 2011)

Pete, and they are not afraid to tell you it's just going to get covered up with drywall. It's all about the footage out here in resi:whistling2: Not the game I enjoy playing. 

The worst part of the job is the first floor. The second floor is a piece of cake up and over. The more and more I think about this you guys are right it is crazy. I have not bought a roll of 14-2 or twisted a greenie in over 14 years. It is amazing whay you can get use to.:thumbup:

Here I have another one for you. remodel commercial with a plenum ceiling. We use 1/2" Seal Tight down the wall to the gem box for a receptacle.


----------



## Leftyselectric (Aug 19, 2011)

pugz134 said:


> Lefty,
> 
> If you are a 134 apprentice, shut the F up. You make us look like idiots. The guys I went through the apprenticeship with are all working. Why? They listen and take pride in the job they do! I'm sure the rope runners take pride in their work. Everyone has their methods. I may not like them. You may not like them. Doesn't matter. They have their rules, we have ours. You aren't working there and they aren't working here. I hope you don't run your mouth like this on a job site, because you would be/should be gone.
> 
> ...


Pugs,
I am not a apprentice so shut the f up. I didn't start this thread to start a union vs non union thing. I was interested in the other way to do things. Who ever stated i don't take pride what I do. If you truly understand who you were speaking about, you would know how much the trade has given to me and how much I have given to stay in this wonderful trade.  And how am I making anybody look stupid. Cause I wasn't knocking anybody's style. Gotta watch Sons of Anarchy now. Bye bye

lefty


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> I have talked to a number of estimators for larger contractors that work under the "Chicago" code and also work under the NEC. The premium for EMT is no where near 100%. They tell me it is between 15 and 20%.
> Yes I know that all you guys who use cable wiring methods don't believe that, but these are guys who do both methods.
> 
> Our city does not have a pipe code for residential, but we do have one for commercial. A owner was complaining about the cost difference because we require EMT and do not permit NM or MC. They had the job priced by a out of area contractor using MC and a local contractor using EMT. They wanted to show a huge difference to push us to change our code. The difference between the quotes was less than 5%. Now if they had priced in in NM it would have been cheaper than the MC, but I don't think it would have been a lot cheaper than the MC





Justin L. said:


> That has to be hogwash if I've ever heard it.


Why that's how they do it there I don't see how you can say that if you never piped in a house.


----------



## Justin L. (Sep 6, 2011)

Because I don't need to pipe in a house to know that the reason for having to do it is stupid.


----------



## mdfriday (May 14, 2007)

Island Electric said:


> Pete, and they are not afraid to tell you it's just going to get covered up with drywall. It's all about the footage out here in resi:whistling2: Not the game I enjoy playing.
> 
> The worst part of the job is the first floor. The second floor is a piece of cake up and over. The more and more I think about this you guys are right it is crazy. I have not bought a roll of 14-2 or twisted a greenie in over 14 years. It is amazing whay you can get use to.:thumbup:
> 
> Here I have another one for you. remodel commercial with a plenum ceiling. *We use 1/2" Seal Tight down the wall to the gem box for a receptacle*.


:no:

Compression fittings and EMT in the ceiling. Flex in the wall. Fire stop at top plate of wall. You do not need plenum rated items in a wall.

The gem box isn't plenum rated.


----------



## mdfriday (May 14, 2007)

eutecticalloy said:


> What about connectors and straps?


 
Wouln't you need more straps with NM? 4' vs. 10'

Connectors and couplings are about $ .17 each.


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

mdfriday said:


> Wouln't you need more straps with NM? 4' vs. 10'
> 
> Connectors and couplings are about $ .17 each.


A plain romex staple is about 2 cents.


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Justin L. said:


> Because I don't need to pipe in a house to know that the reason for having to do it is stupid.


No! 

you think it is stupid.


----------



## Steinsbu52 (Aug 4, 2011)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Well thanks buddy:thumbup:
> 
> #12 solid black 500' ($55)
> #12 solid white 500' ($55)
> ...


Who uses solid wire?


----------



## Steinsbu52 (Aug 4, 2011)

Justin L. said:


> I would imagine I could fit a full 10 foot stick of 1/2" through studs since it's pretty flexible. Heck probably even 3/4" would be easy.


My whole house is in EMT in the studs


----------



## Island Electric (May 9, 2011)

*


mdfriday said:



:no:

Compression fittings and EMT in the ceiling. Flex in the wall. Fire stop at top plate of wall. You do not need plenum rated items in a wall.

The gem box isn't plenum rated.

Click to expand...

*
I believe they do the seal tight so they can pop out the wall and go to a 1900 with it. The taper cleans up the hole up top. It happens all the time in the city. We never did it any other way.


----------



## Island Electric (May 9, 2011)

*


Steinsbu52 said:



Who uses solid wire?

Click to expand...

*I don't but ALL the resi contractors here do.


----------



## Steinsbu52 (Aug 4, 2011)

Island Electric said:


> I don't but ALL the resi contractors here do.


In romex, yes, but mc and conduit, stranded only


----------



## Justin L. (Sep 6, 2011)

Steinsbu52 said:


> In romex, yes, but mc and conduit, stranded only


MC cable is solid


----------



## Steinsbu52 (Aug 4, 2011)

Justin L. said:


> MC cable is solid


Unless you buy stranded


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Justin L. said:


> MC cable is solid


It's available in stranded as well.


----------



## Justin L. (Sep 6, 2011)

Steinsbu52 said:


> My whole house is in EMT in the studs



I'm sorry to hear that


----------



## Steinsbu52 (Aug 4, 2011)

Justin L. said:


> I'm sorry to hear that


Why would you be sorry to hear that?


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Justin L. said:


> I'm sorry to hear that


Why?:blink:


----------



## Justin L. (Sep 6, 2011)

Steinsbu52 said:


> Why would you be sorry to hear that?


Just because its overkill is all. That poor house is deprived of a proper romexing.


----------



## Steinsbu52 (Aug 4, 2011)

Justin L. said:


> Just because its overkill is all. That poor house is deprived of a proper romexing.


Well of course it's overkill, but it's my house


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Justin L. said:


> Just because its overkill is all. That poor house is deprived of a proper romexing.


He could have sleeved the romex in the pipe and have the best of both worlds...:laughing::thumbup::laughing:


----------



## Steinsbu52 (Aug 4, 2011)

HARRY304E said:


> He could have sleeved the romex in the pipe and have the best of both worlds...:laughing::thumbup::laughing:


There is that


----------



## Wireman191 (Aug 28, 2011)

Justin L. said:


> I'm sorry to hear that


 If I built a house I would pipe it.. Why? Cause I can!:thumbup:


----------



## steve134 (Apr 5, 2008)

really??? this conversation again? :no:

here's the deal.. that is the norm for this area. we run conduit.. it's second nature to us. may it seem overkill to you guys, i'm sure.. i do mostly hospital work so i could never fathom a ceiling full of mc cable.


----------



## goose134 (Nov 12, 2007)

See, the conduit guys can run conduit like CRAZY. If you hired me to rope a house, you'd fire me by noon. Likewise, guys who can't throw 1000' of pipe a day in a house are not long for the jobsite.


It's not union vs. non-union. Everyone is up against the same code here. We are not bidding against guys who can rope a house or throw up 5000' of MC cable in a ceiling. EVERYONE uses pipe in the area (and some surrounding areas as well.) NM is not inherently deficient. We just do things different.


----------



## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

goose134 said:


> See, the conduit guys can run conduit like CRAZY. If you hired me to rope a house, you'd fire me by noon. Likewise, guys who can't throw 1000' of pipe a day in a house are not long for the jobsite.


I'll start the truck & be waiting for you. I would last until just after 9am coffee. 
Never roped a house and never used plastic. 
ET has given me insight how & were it can be used. But I haven't tried it yet.


----------



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Steinsbu52 said:


> Who uses solid wire?


 

Me. every chance I get


----------



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

eutecticalloy said:


> What about connectors and straps?


 

If it's a commercial job with NM, you'd still need connectors for that, and staples. You really think that skews my numbers much?


----------



## mdfriday (May 14, 2007)

Island Electric said:


> I don't but ALL the resi contractors here do.


If, when, I do a house, #14 Solid, #12 and larger is stranded.


----------



## CraigV (May 12, 2011)

I don't understand all the disbelief over speed and cost differences being reasonable. Seeing a "good" piping job and the mess it leaves of what's left of the framing, I sure hope it was done fast.:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:

Just kidding. Frankly I'm really impressed with the workmanship. It would have taken me, oh, FOREVER, to get the speed and accuracy you guys are doing routinely.:thumbsup:


----------



## mdfriday (May 14, 2007)

Island Electric said:


> I believe they do the seal tight so they can pop out the wall and go to a 1900 with it. The taper cleans up the hole up top. It happens all the time in the city. We never did it any other way.



Interesting, I wonder if seal tite is rated to be in a plenum...

We use plenum whips where need be. Or EMT and compression fittings.


----------



## Island Electric (May 9, 2011)

*


mdfriday said:



Interesting, I wonder if seal tite is rated to be in a plenum...

We use plenum whips where need be. Or EMT and compression fittings.

Click to expand...

*You are doing it the right way. Just because they decided what they can get away with it does no mean it is right. 
Go in any of those big high rises that have been remodeled and you will see the seal tight coming out of the wall into a J box where that particular wall was original to the space which 99% of the time is a perimeter wall.


----------



## Leftyselectric (Aug 19, 2011)

goose134 said:


> See, the conduit guys can run conduit like CRAZY. If you hired me to rope a house, you'd fire me by noon. Likewise, guys who can't throw 1000' of pipe a day in a house are not long for the jobsite.
> 
> It's not union vs. non-union. Everyone is up against the same code here. We are not bidding against guys who can rope a house or throw up 5000' of MC cable in a ceiling. EVERYONE uses pipe in the area (and some surrounding areas as well.) NM is not inherently deficient. We just do things different.


Well said

lefty


----------



## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

Justin L. said:


> Because I don't need to pipe in a house to know that the reason for having to do it is stupid.


 Chicago will cite a reason for their code. The number of fires that are said to be of electrical origin in the City of Chicago are only 25% of would would be expected based on the national fire cause and origin stats. I am sure that there are any number of reasons for this, including better fire cause investigations, but I do believe that the "pipe" code plays a part.


----------



## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

Y'know what would really help prevent fires?

Metal studs.

Fire caulk around each device box.

Tamper Resistant receptacles.

And AFCI breakers.


----------



## Leftyselectric (Aug 19, 2011)

Frasbee said:


> Y'know what would really help prevent fires?
> 
> Metal studs.
> 
> ...


Only you can prevent fires and smokey the bear

lefty


----------



## Mshea (Jan 17, 2011)

Leftyselectric said:


> I've never seen a drywall screw go through conduit. Ever. And I didn't start this thread for the reason it's being used for. But let's just forget about everything we know. Bare wire in the walls. Or wires inside a metal pipe. What would you choose.
> 
> lefty


Never bare wires!! we are talking insulated and jacketed wires and I'd chose Romex over emt for most applications.
I have actually seen 14 drywall screws in 1 piece of EMT. fortunately before wire was installed. We regularly see service pipes get nailed by the exterior cladding contractors.
Someone corrected me about the AFCI and said that was Indiana. Thanks
Someone else made reference to less electrical fires in Chicago.
I want to speak to Fire causes. Big cities often have professional fire investigators and usually attribute fire causes to the real cause. Often smaller jurisdictions don't have trained fire investigators but might be a coroner, elected official, sheriff, volunteer firefighter, etc. Seldom are these people trained in electricity or have taken much more than a rudimentary fire investigation course.
In the jurisdiction I work, no fire can be declared as caused by electrical if an electrical inspector does not agree. It is not uncommon to declare electrical fire as soon as the cause is beyond the investigators ability to diagnose a cause so we guess that a large number of electrical fires were not caused by abuse or misuse of electrical plant.
The %25 of fire caused by an electrical failure is a little higher than here where we still have a lot of K&T. All combustible buildings are usually wired with Romex so I can't see a correlation to EMT and lower number of electrical fires.
A few words on rodents and drywall screws. There are things that can be done with cables to mitigate rodent damage like not running verticle wires without protection within 1 foot of any horizontal board where rodents run. Simply running the horizontal wiring more than 1 foot above a plate is very usefull . In 15 years as an electrical inspector I have seen a few nails in the cable but most were intentionally done like that to support the cable. Yes work is done by idiots here too. If I were to pick the biggest cause of electrical fires it is almost always at a connection and we make connections inside of boxes. The number of problems I have seen between boxes is 2 where boxes were required. 1 was a staple driven too hard and the other was the nail. The other was a connection in K&T attributed to a cold solder joint in the original splice circa 1911. The fire occured nearly 90 years later. The fire was very kind in that it did not destroy the wiring as all the fire damage was above this bad splice.
I just think that Chicago has overprescribed the acceptable wiring method based on something other than safety or any substantial benefit to the customers.
Again the evidence world wide shows that when properly installed by qualified people that non mettalic wiring methods are safe and adequate for combustible buildings.
We have seen major faults from nails in service pipes as I mentioned, So much for Emt protecting the service wires. Only rigid pipe is effective against nails and screws.


----------



## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

Mshea said:


> We have seen major faults from nails in service pipes as I mentioned, So much for Emt protecting the service wires. Only rigid pipe is effective against nails and screws.


I knew it. EMT is for hacks. A real electrician would run rigid, threaded couplings only.


----------



## Tiger (Jan 3, 2008)

This is from another thread regarding wiring in Illinois and the difference in cost:

Every building department decides which code to adopt and what to amend. Most prohibit or limit flex. Some prohibit backstabbing, use of 14 ga on receptacle circuits, limit the number of outlets on a circuit, require 200 amp minimum service, 100 amp minimum subpanel, load calculations on company letterhead, copper conductors, dedicated circuits, bolt-on breakers, underground services, exterior light flashers. I call it "rules-of-the-day". If you want to know the rules, call the inspector today.

As to the additional expense, I know an "electrician" who does non-union new construction with NM and EMT. I use quotes because he was a 15 year jorneyman union carpenter. He only knows how to drill, pull, bend, etc. and nothing about 4-way switching, load calculations, NEC. At last report he installed 1800 feet of conduit in a day, no small feat. He's on a 3-man crew...a working foreman, him and a go-fer. They rough a house in 2 days in NM, 3 days in EMT. He prefers EMT because it pays an extra day. So it's not really a ton of money. I think he's up to $20/hour and I'd guess the foreman and go-fer around $40/hour combined. If you think about it the materials might be less with EMT when you factor in multiple circuits in a conduit.


----------



## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

Frasbee said:


> Y'know what would really help prevent fires?
> 
> Metal studs.
> 
> ...


Chicago does not require AFCI. They feel that the conduit solves that issue. I would tend to agree that the conduit provides protection somewhat equivalent to a branch circuit/feeder type AFCI. However if the combination type AFCIs do what they say they do, then they provide more protection from fires than conduit does.


----------



## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

Frasbee said:


> I knew it. EMT is for hacks. A real electrician would run rigid, threaded couplings only.


Actually a real electrician would use stainless steel rigid conduit


----------



## Leftyselectric (Aug 19, 2011)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> Actually a real electrician would use stainless steel rigid conduit


I use titanium, gold and platinum.

lefty


----------



## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> Actually a real electrician would use stainless steel rigid conduit


Hell no. Stainless could be in close proximity to a grounded nail which could cause an arc should there be a ground fault and create a fire.

Rob roy, it's the only way.


----------



## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

Frasbee said:


> ...
> Rob roy, it's the only way.


But stainless looks nicer and costs more.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> Actually a real electrician would use stainless steel rigid conduit


Yeah, I can type wrap and tape a lot of NM onto a nice strong pipe. :laughing:


----------



## CraigV (May 12, 2011)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> Chicago does not require AFCI. They feel that the conduit solves that issue. I would tend to agree that the conduit provides protection somewhat equivalent to a branch circuit/feeder type AFCI. However if the combination type AFCIs do what they say they do, then they provide more protection from fires than conduit does.


 Seems they're missing half the point of using AFCI's.


----------



## mdfriday (May 14, 2007)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> Chicago does not require AFCI. They feel that the conduit solves that issue. I would tend to agree that the conduit provides protection somewhat equivalent to a branch circuit/feeder type AFCI. However if the combination type AFCIs do what they say they do, then they provide more protection from fires than conduit does.



Yes they do see 18-27-210.12


----------



## mdfriday (May 14, 2007)

One more item to understand,

Of the 80-90 AHJs in Cook (Crook) county, of which Chicago is one, none of them have the exact same requirements. Some use Chicago code, differing years back too 2000, some use the NEC, back to 1990. All have individual amendments.

It keeps us on our toes.


----------



## Leftyselectric (Aug 19, 2011)

Crook county baby 

lefty


----------



## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

mdfriday said:


> Yes they do see 18-27-210.12


Sorry, I did not know that they made that change.


----------



## Mshea (Jan 17, 2011)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> Chicago does not require AFCI. They feel that the conduit solves that issue. I would tend to agree that the conduit provides protection somewhat equivalent to a branch circuit/feeder type AFCI. However if the combination type AFCIs do what they say they do, then they provide more protection from fires than conduit does.


 So does Chicago require AFCI or not? since an AFCI might detect an arcing fault in a device plugged into the outlet I fail to see the logic of EMT providing the protection.

As for rigid Stainless steel pipe. I wanted to reming you that if Stainless Steel raceways are used, (rarely) you have to add bonding wires because Stainless is more resistive than other steel.


----------



## Steinsbu52 (Aug 4, 2011)

Mshea said:


> So does Chicago require AFCI or not? since an AFCI might detect an arcing fault in a device plugged into the outlet I fail to see the logic of EMT providing the protection.
> 
> As for rigid Stainless steel pipe. I wanted to reming you that if Stainless Steel raceways are used, (rarely) you have to add bonding wires because Stainless is more resistive than other steel.


I use a lot of SS conduit, milk processing and soda processing and yes bonding would be required. There is a lot more fittings (Condulets and such) available today then there was ap five years ago, so someone is using it more then normal and we can finally get UL conduit.


----------



## mdfriday (May 14, 2007)

Mshea said:


> So does Chicago require AFCI or not? since an AFCI might detect an arcing fault in a device plugged into the outlet I fail to see the logic of EMT providing the protection.
> 
> As for rigid Stainless steel pipe. I wanted to reming you that if Stainless Steel raceways are used, (rarely) you have to add bonding wires because Stainless is more resistive than other steel.



I think the stainless was a joke...


----------



## Mshea (Jan 17, 2011)

mdfriday said:


> I think the stainless was a joke...


I think so too but never miss an oportunity to bring the bonding requirment to everyone's attention. Some guys might have just saved a correction or added a ground wire to their next estimate.
I mean would you relly think a SS pipe needs a bonding wire? I get that maybe 1 in a thousand electricians have ever seen SS pipe.


----------



## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

Mshea said:


> I think so too but never miss an oportunity to bring the bonding requirment to everyone's attention. Some guys might have just saved a correction or added a ground wire to their next estimate.
> I mean would you relly think a SS pipe needs a bonding wire? I get that maybe 1 in a thousand electricians have ever seen SS pipe.


 There is nothing in the NEC that says you can't use SS rigid conduit as an Equipment Grounding Conductor. 


> *344.60 Grounding. *RMC shall be permitted as an equipment
> grounding conductor.





> *
> 344.2 Definition.
> Rigid Metal Conduit (RMC).​*​​​​A threadable raceway of circular cross section designed for the physical protection and routing of conductors and cables and for use as an equipment grounding conductor when installed with its integral or associated coupling and appropriate fittings. RMC is generally made of steel (ferrous) with protective coatings or aluminum (nonferrous). Special use types are red brass and stainless steel.​


​


----------



## Mshea (Jan 17, 2011)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> There is nothing in the NEC that says you can't use SS rigid conduit as an Equipment Grounding Conductor.
> 
> [/left]
> [/size][/font][/size][/font][/size][/font][/size][/font]


I did not know that, because of course I am on the grounding section comittee of the Canadian Electrical Code and SS conduit is too resistive to be considered as a bonding method in Canada. 10-804(c)i requires a separate bonding conductor if the raceway is made of Stainless Steel.
Given that Ohms law applies to SS and you can be sure that most SS conduit in use in Canada was made in the USA I find this difference odd. I seldome see these kinds of differences between the NEC and CEC but were we find one.
Are you sure there is not reference in the NEC grounding articles? I am going to have a look at Mike Holt's book on grounding.

Thanks


----------



## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

What happens in Chicago when someone wants to add a plug or something, do you cut open the entire wall to run EMT?


----------



## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

jza said:


> What happens in Chicago when someone wants to add a plug or something, do you cut open the entire wall to run EMT?


You cut open only as much as you need to. 
You try to stub down to the basement or up to the attic. It's not to bad as it's what you have been doing for years. You just plan your runs and keep damage to a minimum. 
Myself, I like to use nail-on 1900 boxes. So my openings will be a little larger. It only takes a few minutes longer to close the wall back up. Spackel goes a long way.


----------



## Steinsbu52 (Aug 4, 2011)

Mshea said:


> I think so too but never miss an oportunity to bring the bonding requirment to everyone's attention. Some guys might have just saved a correction or added a ground wire to their next estimate.
> I mean would you relly think a SS pipe needs a bonding wire? I get that maybe 1 in a thousand electricians have ever seen SS pipe.


You should see how much longer SS lasts beyond GRC in a wash down area.


----------



## Leftyselectric (Aug 19, 2011)

jza said:


> What happens in Chicago when someone wants to add a plug or something, do you cut open the entire wall to run EMT?


In certain situations we use greenfield in to wall.

lefty


----------



## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

What's greenfield?


----------



## The Lightman (Jan 9, 2010)

jza said:


> What's greenfield?


3/8" FMC - empty MC


----------



## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

The Lightman said:


> 3/8" FMC - empty MC


Or 1/2" super-flex, for them hard to reach places.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Wirenuting said:


> You cut open only as much as you need to.
> You try to stub down to the basement or up to the attic. It's not to bad as it's what you have been doing for years. You just plan your runs and keep damage to a minimum.
> Myself, I like to use nail-on 1900 boxes. So my openings will be a little larger. It only takes a few minutes longer to close the wall back up. Spackel goes a long way.




_'It's OK mam, we are just destroying your walls for your safety and my own convenience.'_​

It is ridiculous that they will not let you snake in MC.


----------



## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

Mshea said:


> I did not know that, because of course I am on the grounding section comittee of the Canadian Electrical Code and SS conduit is too resistive to be considered as a bonding method in Canada. 10-804(c)i requires a separate bonding conductor if the raceway is made of Stainless Steel.
> Given that Ohms law applies to SS and you can be sure that most SS conduit in use in Canada was made in the USA I find this difference odd. I seldome see these kinds of differences between the NEC and CEC but were we find one.
> Are you sure there is not reference in the NEC grounding articles? I am going to have a look at Mike Holt's book on grounding.
> 
> Thanks


It is not in Article 250 as far as I know and I don't recall seeing anything about it in Mike's grounding book or in the Soares book. A word search for "stainless" in the NEC did not find anything that would restrict the use of stainless steel conduit as an EGC. It is possible that it is in the conduit listing information, but I did not find it with a quick look at the UL White Book. 
Maybe a proposal is in order for the NEC to require an EGC of the wire type be used with stainless steel conduit.


----------



## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

BBQ said:


> 'It's OK mam, we are just destroying your walls for your safety and my own convenience.'
> 
> It is ridiculous that they will not let you snake in MC.


I agree. They seem to hate BX down there. The burbs swing both ways. 
Romex and such is fine, but I think Chicago is afraid a cow will chew thru it and burn the city down again. 

I don't like old work boxes as they seem to stick out a little to far. And I don't like Madison straps, They stink big time. 

I have noticed most people add things only when they plan to remodel or paint. They understand it's just how it is here.

Oh ya, Wiremold is a favorite around here also. I had a wiremold bender awhile back. Forgot who I lent it to. LoL


----------



## CraigV (May 12, 2011)

Wirenuting said:


> I have noticed most people add things only when they plan to remodel or paint. They understand it's just how it is here.


It seems contrary to the intention of increasing safety by forcing conduit, since people are less likely to add capacity and convenience by adding new outlets, and would tend to use extension cords, space heaters instead of baseboard heaters, etc. which would be inherently more dangerous.


----------



## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

CraigV said:


> It seems contrary to the intention of increasing safety by forcing conduit, since people are less likely to add capacity and convenience by adding new outlets, and would tend to use extension cords, space heaters instead of baseboard heaters, etc. which would be inherently more dangerous.


That is very true.


----------



## dsherres (Jan 28, 2010)

EMT is EMT and Romex is Romex. The savvy electrician should be adept at both and use each appropriately. And don't forget MC. Raceway wiring as an add-on in a residential basement makes a nice looking job and outshines the competition, but when it comes time to present the bill, it can become problematic.


----------

