# Living with aluminum



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Many here have said the AL used now is "new and improved" and have not had problems _if installed correctly.._


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Unless you're upsizing the wire for derating or voltage drop issues, I think you'll find the lugs/terminals will work just fine for the larger aluminum. Most lugs/terminals are built to accomodate copper & aluminum that's sized properly.


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## Shorty Circuit (Jun 26, 2010)

I believe that the aluminum alloy now in use is much harder and will not deform the way aluminum wire that caused so many house fires when used with copper only devices back in the 70s? did. Often these are being proposed by contractors who are bidding trying to find cheaper ways to install their jobs. I can't blame them for that. Where there are long runs from main switchboards to large distribution panels or from generators to ATSs, voltage drop is also a concern. Limitations of lugs in equipment creates problems for upsizing feeders in aluminum that it doesn't in copper because the size of aluminum is larger to begin with and the impedance per unit length is higher. Contractors would rather use fewer larger runs than more parallel smaller feeders. Unfortunately, I'm finding that both lug sizes on CBs and other terminals and clearance for adaptor pins have their limits and space in some equipment is tight. It takes more work for me up front to find out where aluminum will work and where it won't.


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## tates1882 (Sep 3, 2010)

Shorty Circuit said:


> I am not a happy camper right now. This week for the first time in my life I had to spec out an alternate for aluminum wire. With the Chinese buying up copper like crazy, the difference between the price of aluminum and copper has soared. Aluminum transformer windings, aluminum bus, and now aluminum wire. This means larger feeders, parallel feeders, larger conduit, and checking with manufacturers to find out what the largest wire the lugs in their equipment will accept and how many of them will fit. Something I've never had to do before. Running multiple smaller aluminum feeders makes me worry about whether or not there will be sufficient clearance inside for lug adaptors and sometimes the pin adaptors are too large to adapt much heavier gage aluminum to lugs intended for copper. I just hope the Chinese feel the price pinch and start specifying aluminum too so that the price differential decreases. Any of you having similar experiences or concerns? Any other problems you have with aluminum versus copper?


The shop I work uses Al for anything bigger 1/o unless speced other wise. I like it, its lighter, cheaper, easier to shape, and the thieves haven't started to steal it yet here. We also do mainly new construction, so our whole sale houses know we use AL, and when they bid a gear package they size everything for AL unless told other wise.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Shorty Circuit said:


> I believe that the aluminum alloy now in use is much harder and will not deform the way aluminum wire that caused so many house fires when used with copper only devices back in the 70s did....


 That's my understanding as well. Apparently the single-conductor wiring used in the 70's was made of an alloy called the "1000 series" and what is widely used today is the "8000" series which doesn't have the same expansion problems in the useful temperature range.

I wonder if, as copper prices continue to rise, we'll see a resurgence of single-conductor branch circuit wiring in aluminum? 

-John


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

There was never a real issue with "feeder" sized aluminum conductors. The issue was the pre 1974 branch circuit size aluminum conductors and the associated wiring devices.

As far as conduit size being larger, have you looked at compact strand conductors? The aluminum industry brought that product into the market because by using it you can, in many cases, get the same ampacity in a given conduit size as you could with copper conductors of standard stranding.


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## RobTownfold64 (Mar 17, 2011)

B4T said:


> Many here have said the AL used now is "new and improved" and have not had problems _if installed correctly.._


Have you ever had any issues with it?

Aluminum is tits. Just think, your next service change you can pocket a couple hundred extra, just by using aluminum. Or you can bid a couple hundred lower and have a better chance getting the job, while still profiting the same. 

There is already aluminum running from the pole to the splice, what's wrong with it running down the side of the house too?


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

RobTownfold64 said:


> Have you ever had any issues with it?
> 
> Aluminum is tits. Just think, your next service change you can pocket a couple hundred extra, just by using aluminum. Or you can bid a couple hundred lower and have a better chance getting the job, while still profiting the same.
> 
> There is already aluminum running from the pole to the splice, what's wrong with it running down the side of the house too?


No.. because every service I have installed in the las (35) years has been copper..

Even now I will not offer a residential AL service.. they can get someone else..

I have changed many meter pans and panels that went bad because the AL melted the lug..

I have never seen that happen with CU.. others here have.. just not me..

Even the POCO guys I have talked to around here don't trust AL.. for services


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

B4T said:


> No.. because every service I have installed in the las (35) years has been copper..
> 
> Even now I will not offer a residential AL service.. they can get someone else..
> 
> ...


Get with the times, man...AL is just fine for services...Increase profit or lower your bids...either way, you win...


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

B4T said:


> No.. because every service I have installed in the las (35) years has been copper..
> 
> Even now I will not offer a residential AL service.. they can get someone else..
> 
> ...




I love guys who won't sell AL feeders. :thumbsup:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

NolaTigaBait said:


> Get with the times, man...AL is just fine for services...Increase profit or lower your bids...either way, you win...


I get my price for copper and I only have to stock ONE type of material.. :thumbsup:


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## RobTownfold64 (Mar 17, 2011)

B4T said:


> I get my price for copper and I only have to stock ONE type of material.. :thumbsup:


Why stock? I go to the supply house the day before (or the morning of) and pickup a 200A service package in whatever configuration (Cu or Al, pipe or SEU) that the customer wants. :thumbsup:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

RobTownfold64 said:


> Why stock? I go to the supply house the day before (or the morning of) and pickup a 200A service package in whatever configuration (Cu or Al, pipe or SEU) that the customer wants. :thumbsup:


I always buy extra 2/0 CU when the price is low..by the time I use it, the wire is already paid for..

More money in the pocket.. :thumbsup:


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## RobTownfold64 (Mar 17, 2011)

B4T said:


> I always buy extra 2/0 CU when the price is low..by the time I use it, the wire is already paid for..
> 
> More money in the pocket.. :thumbsup:


I see. I wish I did more of that with Romex, the price is thru the roof now and I have a large basement to rough in


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

RobTownfold64 said:


> I see. I wish I did more of that with Romex, the price is thru the roof now and I have a large basement to rough in


There are times HD runs specials on "pallets" of NM.. that is when you get the real savings..


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

I hardly ever use 2/0 anymore as most of my services are 400 amps and need 3/0 copper. I just moved 2- 200 amp indoor panels that were 25' from the service wfed with 4/0 ser. Of course, I cannot use 4/0 ser anymore so I piped it and ran 3/0 copper with a 1/0 neutral and #6 egc. Fortunately I had some old 3/0 that was almost the exact length I needed for one run. I had to spend dearly for the other run. I think the 3/0 was $3.50/ft and the 1/0 was $2.05/ft.


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

B4T said:


> I always buy extra 2/0 CU when the price is low..by the time I use it, the wire is already paid for..
> 
> More money in the pocket.. :thumbsup:


I guess...I wouldn't front that much money though...Seems like you could find a better way to make/save money than buying a ton of un-needed materials...


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

*Cu /alu issue*

Well iam with you Shorty circuit ! If you do large projects and today its more and more Alu for cost savings .

Estimators say its less cost with alu then the cost of copper now its less material and work and labor with copper but they say the cost offset is less with Alu conductors ya right .

As a field electrician i just dont see how as we kinda run paralleled conduits double the straps supports and more underground more fittings more lugs and lugs that need pins or special taps in gear to make up what will not fit in a standard switchboard big pull boxes labor a lots of hard work extra sweet to install this not to say layout time to get it installed .
Heres a typical job feeder schedule for a project we do with over 300 feeders not branch just feeders as shown .







Now you tell me this is cheaper we install on a average project 300 to 400 feeders nothing smaller than 1 1/4 inch mostly how can this be but they say its so ? sorry for the pages but theres more of them dont have the room to putt them all up .


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## Shorty Circuit (Jun 26, 2010)

B4T said:


> No.. because every service I have installed in the las (35) years has been copper..
> 
> Even now I will not offer a residential AL service.. they can get someone else..
> 
> ...


I'm not a contractor. I represent the owner. Sure he wants to save money up front. But what do I tell him if and when it fails, what do you expect for cheap? 
You wanted cheap, you got cheap, live with the consequences of it pal. That doesn't fly. You guys can blame it on the engineer. You can say "we just installed 
what was on the drawings." Who do I blame, China? Right.

So what do you do when the parallel feeders don't fit the lugs even with the adaptors because maybe there isn't enough clearance? 
I KNOW you don't bring them to a box with busbar and terminate them there with short copper jumpers to the breaker or panel lugs. 
Do you cut some of the strands off to MAKE them fit? NOOOOOOOO! Nobody does that, do they.....


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## RobTownfold64 (Mar 17, 2011)

Shorty Circuit said:


> I'm not a contractor. I represent the owner. Sure he wants to save money up front. But what do I tell him if and when it fails, what do you expect for cheap? You wanted cheap, you got cheap, live with the consequences of it pal. That doesn't fly. You guys can blame it on the engineer. You can say "we just installed what was on the drawings." Who do I blame, China? Right.
> 
> So what do you do when the parallel feeders don't fit the lugs even with the adaptors because maybe there isn't enough clearance? I KNOW you don't bring them to a box with busbar and terminate them there with short copper jumpers to the breaker or panel lugs. Do you cut some of the strands off to MAKE them fit? NOOOOOOOO! Nobody does that, do they.....


You're overreacting...


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

piperunner said:


> As a field electrician i just dont see how as we kinda run paralleled conduits double the straps supports and more underground more fittings more lugs and lugs that need pins or special taps in gear to make up what will not fit in a standard switchboard big pull boxes labor a lots of hard work extra sweet to install this not to say layout time to get it installed


Run the numbers and the AL is much cheaper even if you have to increase conduit sizes and use additional connectors.

Right now trade service is showing 600 copper at 11,400 per thousand while 600 AL is 5,700 per thousand.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

RobTownfold64 said:


> You're overreacting...


He does that. :laughing:

He also feels if an SE cable is painted it must be derated because the paint holds the heat in.


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## Shorty Circuit (Jun 26, 2010)

BBQ said:


> Run the numbers and the AL is much cheaper even if you have to increase conduit sizes and use additional connectors.
> 
> Right now trade service is showing 600 copper at 11,400 per thousand while 600 AL is 5,700 per thousand.


That's not a fair comparison. 600 aluminum doesn't have as high an ampacity as 600 copper and has a much higher voltage drop. 

How about if you compare the same ampacity and then throw in the
cost of larger conduit for aluminum? Then the difference isn't 
quite as high.

I'm just not an aluminum sort of guy.:no: I've lived all of my life in a copper world. The industrial facilities I design MUST work all the time.
No excuses later on.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

The pictures William posted of a power plant he is doing gets all copper wiring..

Either they have deep pockets or they can't afford lugs burning up and shutting down the plant for repairs..

Just something to think about... 

Here is a link for his thread http://www.electriciantalk.com/f2/pics-job-im-working-21535/index4/


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

B4T said:


> The pictures William posted of a power plant he is doing gets all copper wiring..
> 
> Either they have deep pockets or they can't afford lugs burning up and shutting down the plant for repairs..
> 
> Just something to think about...


Im sorry, but...:laughing:


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## Shorty Circuit (Jun 26, 2010)

RobTownfold64 said:


> You're overreacting...


Am I? You think I was born yesterday? You think I don't know what some guys got away with? I see it all the time. I clean up those messes. I don't spec out what I don't know and I've never used aluminum wire before. The contractor who thought he'd outsmart the other bidders opened up a can of worms for me and it will get him nowhere. I've re-designed for an aluminum feeder option and ALL of the bidders will get a shot at it.


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## RobTownfold64 (Mar 17, 2011)

Shorty Circuit said:


> Am I? You think I was born yesterday? You think I don't know what some guys got away with? I see it all the time. I clean up those messes. I don't spec out what I don't know and I've never used aluminum wire before. The contractor who thought he'd outsmart the other bidders opened up a can of worms for me and it will get him nowhere. I've re-designed for an aluminum feeder option and ALL of the bidders will get a shot at it.


I wish I had your problems.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Shorty Circuit said:


> That's not a fair comparison. 600 aluminum doesn't have as high an ampacity as 600 copper and has a much higher voltage drop.


It was not offered as an absolute comparison, anyone here with a clue realizes that the AL will likely have to be increased in size.



> How about if you compare the same ampacity and then throw in the
> cost of larger conduit for aluminum? Then the difference isn't
> quite as high.


If you paid attention you would have noticed that you do not always have to increase the conduit sizes. Compact AL is just that, it is a AL conductor that has been compacted to remove all the space between the strands.



> The industrial facilities I design MUST work all the time.
> No excuses later on.


Then I guess you are screwed as copper can and does fail.:laughing:


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## RobTownfold64 (Mar 17, 2011)

BBQ said:


> If you paid attention you would have noticed that you do not always have to increase the conduit sizes. Compact AL is just that, it is a AL conductor that has been compacted to remove all the space between the strands.


How do you size it?


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> The pictures William posted of a power plant he is doing gets all copper wiring..
> 
> Either they have deep pockets or they can't afford lugs burning up and shutting down the plant for repairs..
> 
> ...


So take it you think Brian John is full of it? He has stated a number f times he deals with failed copper often. I do as well.

This was copper


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## Shorty Circuit (Jun 26, 2010)

BBQ said:


> So take it you think Brian John is full of it? He has stated a number f times he deals with failed copper often. I do as well.
> 
> This was copper


The issue isn't whether or not it failed. The issue is why it failed. It did not fail because it was copper. It may have been loose and arced. That happens to plants where routine maintenance isn't done. I had a switch melt because of loose lugs. That's why we thermoscan with feeders energized with a load. If Aluminum has an inherent flaw that will cause it to fail or if it requires special or more frequent attention than copper to remain reliable, that's what I want to know. That's why I started this post. What special precautions does aluminum wire require either during installation or later that copper doesn't?


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BBQ said:


> So take it you think Brian John is full of it? He has stated a number f times he deals with failed copper often. I do as well.
> 
> This was copper


I already said others here have seen copper burn up.. I am not doubting you at all..


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## dowmace (Jan 16, 2008)

Shorty Circuit said:


> The issue isn't whether or not it failed. The issue is why it failed. It did not fail because it was copper. It may have been loose and arced. That happens to plants where routine maintenance isn't done. I had a switch melt because of loose lugs. That's why we thermoscan with feeders energized with a load. If Aluminum has an inherent flaw that will cause it to fail or if it requires special or more frequent attention than copper to remain reliable, that's what I want to know. That's why I started this post. What special precautions does aluminum wire require either during installation or later that copper doesn't?


I've done plenty of routine maintenance contracts for large manufacturing plants and all of them that run aluminum I have had to re torque large lugs on a monthly basis do to expansion and contraction, copper on the other hand was probably once a year. These are extremes though of course because of Oklahoma weather.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

dowmace said:


> ...I have had to re torque large lugs on a monthly basis do to expansion and contraction, copper on the other hand was probably once a year....


 If you're re-torquing every month, you're damaging the conductor and the fastener. The reason you even can retorque that often is because the fastener is being deformed beyond it's intended use, and the conductor is over-compressed.

Properly installed terminations should not need to be re-torqued, copper or aluminum. The only reason I'd perform it is if an IR or Ductor test shows a loose connection, in which case the best method is to completely re-terminate the conductor.

-John


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Run the numbers and the AL is much cheaper even if you have to increase conduit sizes and use additional connectors.
> 
> Right now trade service is showing 600 copper at 11,400 per thousand while 600 AL is 5,700 per thousand.


Thats what the estimators tell me its just hard to think material and labor offsets this . take care


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

B4T said:


> No.. because every service I have installed in the las (35) years has been copper..
> 
> Even now I will not offer a residential AL service.. they can get someone else..
> 
> ...


I have no idea where you are working or how things are done in your area. I have seen both aluminum and copper burn on lugs. 
We had a considerable amount of the old style "soft" aluminum in almost every meter on the utility side and many on the customer side. I have repaired and replaced many of them over the years.
I understand the OPs concern about the size of the conductors and the lug situation. I found out about that on one of my jobs and had to scramble to get it worked out. 
I will not use copper unless the customer demands it and is willing to pay dearly for it. I believe that copper has gone the way of cast iron pipe, it may have its uses but they are few and far between.
I would like someone to try to convince a utility to use copper instead of aluminum. It will not happen. Pound for pound aluminum will beat out copper every time. 

The size of compact conductors is pretty much the size of copper conductors of the same ampacity so I really do not understand the concern about the conduit size.

I have witnessed and have had way too many injuries just from handling the weight of large copper conductors. I would rather not use copper for anything other than an excuse to go to the scrap yard.


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## Mike in Canada (Jun 27, 2010)

Shorty Circuit said:


> If Aluminum has an inherent flaw that will cause it to fail or if it requires special or more frequent attention than copper to remain reliable, that's what I want to know. That's why I started this post. What special precautions does aluminum wire require either during installation or later that copper doesn't?


 The only difference is that you need to use Noalox or similar on the exposed cable that is going to be clamped in the lug. This is a paste that keeps the oxide skin from forming.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Mike in Canada said:


> The only difference is that you need to use Noalox or similar on the exposed cable that is going to be clamped in the lug. This is a paste that keeps the oxide skin from forming.


The manufacturers use that same language for copper.


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## Mike in Canada (Jun 27, 2010)

jrannis said:


> The size of compact conductors is pretty much the size of copper conductors of the same ampacity so I really do not understand the concern about the conduit size.


 There is nothing that I know of in the Canadian electrical code about compacted conductors. I've used them, but our conduit fill charts are all based solely on the nominal size of the conductor. 350kcmil is 350kcmil. I haven't noticed anything indicating that we can treat compacted 350 as being like 250 for conduit fill purposes. Is that set out in the NEC?


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

dowmace said:


> I've done plenty of routine maintenance contracts for large manufacturing plants and all of them that run aluminum I have had to re torque large lugs on a monthly basis do to expansion and contraction, copper on the other hand was probably once a year. These are extremes though of course because of Oklahoma weather.


Re-torquing monthly will lead to failure.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Mike in Canada said:


> I haven't noticed anything indicating that we can treat compacted 350 as being like 250 for conduit fill purposes. Is that set out in the NEC?


Yes we have different fill calculations for compacted conductors.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Shorty Circuit said:


> Am I? You think I was born yesterday? You think I don't know what some guys got away with? I see it all the time. I clean up those messes. I don't spec out what I don't know and I've never used aluminum wire before. The contractor who thought he'd outsmart the other bidders opened up a can of worms for me and it will get him nowhere. I've re-designed for an aluminum feeder option and ALL of the bidders will get a shot at it.


First of all, you are an "Engineer" you do not live in the same world as we do. If you like to have your plant use copper wire then you have your reasons. Your logic about aluminum conductors is not universal and, as you can see, those of us that handle the material, install and service it, some of us for 30 or more years, ARE DISAGREEING WITH YOU!!
Some guys that work with small feeders and residential services are not as affected by the logistics of copper wire. Those that deal with very large services and feeders realize the advantages of using Aluminum conductors. 

It sounds as though you overlooked something and want to hang the blame on the material. I would seriously challenge you look over your calculations for the conduit size of the aluminum and see if you are using compact conductors. If you are getting hung up on the voltage drop, maybe you have something to be concerned about. 

Im not slamming you for your opinion, Im just saying that we disagree.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Mike in Canada said:


> There is nothing that I know of in the Canadian electrical code about compacted conductors. I've used them, but our conduit fill charts are all based solely on the nominal size of the conductor. 350kcmil is 350kcmil. I haven't noticed anything indicating that we can treat compacted 350 as being like 250 for conduit fill purposes. Is that set out in the NEC?


I live in Florida and dont know anything about Canadian electrical codes, I didnt even see snow until I was 21...


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

jrannis said:


> I would like someone to try to convince a utility to use copper instead of aluminum.


We have a local municipal electrical utility that uses copper. http://www.hmlp.com/

I almost crapped when they showed up on the job with a 2500' spool of 4/0-4 copper quadplex. When I asked them about it they claimed they use it due to the salt air being located next to the ocean. :blink: Of course the towns on either side of them use AL.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

BBQ said:


> We have a local municipal electrical utility that uses copper. http://www.hmlp.com/
> 
> I almost crapped when they showed up on the job with a 2500' spool of 4/0-4 copper quadplex. When I asked them about it they claimed they use it due to the salt air being located next to the ocean. :blink: Of course the towns on either side of them use AL.


Nice. I'll bet that roll of wire cost the big bucks... :thumbup::laughing:


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

BBQ said:


> We have a local municipal electrical utility that uses copper. http://www.hmlp.com/
> 
> I almost crapped when they showed up on the job with a 2500' spool of 4/0-4 copper quadplex. When I asked them about it they claimed they use it due to the salt air being located next to the ocean. :blink: Of course the towns on either side of them use AL.


We used to hear that whatever our utility company spends on it costs gets passed along to the customer plus a guaranteed margin. If this is the case, I would expect them to use the most expensive materials that they could possibly justify.


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## JohnR (Apr 12, 2010)

Just a small thing, but remember that AL can't be terminated lower than 18" of the ground.250.64 A 2008


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## Shorty Circuit (Jun 26, 2010)

jrannis said:


> First of all, you are an "Engineer" you do not live in the same world as we do. If you like to have your plant use copper wire then you have your reasons. Your logic about aluminum conductors is not universal and, as you can see, those of us that handle the material, install and service it, some of us for 30 or more years, ARE DISAGREEING WITH YOU!!
> Some guys that work with small feeders and residential services are not as affected by the logistics of copper wire. Those that deal with very large services and feeders realize the advantages of using Aluminum conductors.
> 
> It sounds as though you overlooked something and want to hang the blame on the material. I would seriously challenge you look over your calculations for the conduit size of the aluminum and see if you are using compact conductors. If you are getting hung up on the voltage drop, maybe you have something to be concerned about.
> ...


I do live in your world. I just don't wear the same hat as you do. I don't make one cent more or less if contractor A or contractor B gets a job and I don't make one cent more or less if it's copper or aluminum. 

I haven't overlooked anything I'm aware of yet. The reason for my posting is that I'm trying to avoid that by soliciting what I hope are informed opinions. 

As for disagreements, it seems to me from reading what others have posted here, you are disagreeing with each other. I've been given cause for concern by some. I'll investigate it further with wire manufacturers. I'm sure both the copper wire and aluminum wire manufactures will have opinions about each other's products. 

As for wire itself causing a problem, in over 40 years I only had one problem with defective wire, Triangle wire for submetering. It had defective insulation and caused the meter to blow up. That was around 25 years ago. Other than that, I've never found defective wire or an instance where wire itself caused a failure.


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## Mshea (Jan 17, 2011)

It is so rare to see copper feeders here. From #6 on up we see a lot of aluminum wire which is not the aluminum of branch circuit wiring days.
Even that wire was only a problem at the connections.
Aluminum wire does demand greater care in making the connections and reveals poor work practices quicker than copper.

Funny to hear a POCO say they don't trust aluminum since that is pretty much their most used conductor Except for the steel core in ACSR they are not installing anything other than aluminum for the overhead. Mind you they use copper to connect to ground rods and use steel cable for their pad mounted transformers. Copper in substation grounding and that is for corrosion reasons.


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## dowmace (Jan 16, 2008)

BBQ said:


> Re-torquing monthly will lead to failure.


What is the solution then? I honestly don't know because left alone the wire works its way loose and heats up destroying the wire and the lugs.


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## Shorty Circuit (Jun 26, 2010)

dowmace said:


> What is the solution then? I honestly don't know because left alone the wire works its way loose and heats up destroying the wire and the lugs.


Would retorqueing a screw every month lead to a failure? I don't think so. If retorqueing every month requires anything more than the slightest nudge to achieve the required torque, it indicates that the wire is soft and is in the process of deforming and failing anyway. The reason for the harder alloy is to prevent this from happening. Its why the old aluminum alloys failed, they deformed when compressed. I also can't imagine that squeezing the air out from between wire strands would result in much decrease in diameter. Just look at the end of a feeder that's been cut and the wires seem to be packed fairly tightly to begin with.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

dowmace said:


> What is the solution then? I honestly don't know because left alone the wire works its way loose and heats up destroying the wire and the lugs.


 How old is this cable? For any cable installed in the last 30 years, there's no reason that aluminum conductors on properly torqued, new AL rated lugs should be coming loose, regardless of the temperature change.

If it were me, I'd wait until IR scans or ductor tests showed poor connections, and then I'd cut off the end of the cable and completely re-terminate it, including replacing any lugs were the screws didn't turn freely.

Done right, that installation should be maintenance free.

-John


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## Shorty Circuit (Jun 26, 2010)

Big John said:


> How old is this cable? For any cable installed in the last 30 years, there's no reason that aluminum conductors on properly torqued, new AL rated lugs should be coming loose, regardless of the temperature change.
> 
> If it were me, I'd wait until IR scans or ductor tests showed poor connections, and then I'd cut off the end of the cable and completely re-terminate it, including replacing any lugs were the screws didn't turn freely.
> 
> ...


The feeders to the 100 amp safety switch that melted from arcing were copper. The lugs can loosen over time from vibrations. Plastic deformation of the wire is not the only mode that leads to this type of failure.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

JohnR said:


> Just a small thing, but remember that AL can't be terminated lower than 18" of the ground.250.64 A 2008


I believe that is grounding conductors only. Pretty rare I would think.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

JohnR said:


> Just a small thing, but remember that AL can't be terminated lower than 18" of the ground.250.64 A 2008



That is only true if you are using Aluminum for your GEC. 


(A) Aluminum or Copper-Clad Aluminum Conductors.
Bare aluminum or copper-clad aluminum grounding electrode
conductors shall not be used where in direct contact
with masonry or the earth or where subject to corrosive
conditions.* Where used outside, aluminum or copper-clad
aluminum grounding electrode conductors shall not be terminated
within 450 mm (18 in.) of the earth.

*


----------



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Shorty Circuit said:


> ...The lugs can loosen over time from vibrations. Plastic deformation of the wire is not the only mode that leads to this type of failure.


 Agreed. But if vibration is that much of a concern then mechanical lugs are the wrong termination device to use, and compression barrel lugs should be used instead.

-John


----------



## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

JohnR said:


> Just a small thing, but remember that AL can't be terminated lower than 18" of the ground.250.64 A 2008


250?? as a ground.......... OK ill admit, I didn't read every post before jumping in....


----------



## crosport (Apr 4, 2010)

Nothing wrong with properly installed aluminum conductors!Why the hell are some guys so afraid of aluminum?I bet with todays technology residential branch circuits could safely be run in aluminum(compression connectors,no-alox and copper pigtails)I've worked in many houses over the years that have al wiring and have had no problems.And these houses were wired like 30 years ago with not much thought about the differences between cu and al.


----------



## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

BBQ said:


> It was not offered as an absolute comparison, anyone here with a clue realizes that the AL will likely have to be increased in size.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


How do you know if the wire is "compact " or not?...Does it say it on the insulation?


----------



## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Shorty Circuit said:


> I am not a happy camper right now. This week for the first time in my life I had to spec out an alternate for aluminum wire. With the Chinese buying up copper like crazy, the difference between the price of aluminum and copper has soared. Aluminum transformer windings, aluminum bus, and now aluminum wire. This means larger feeders, parallel feeders, larger conduit, and checking with manufacturers to find out what the largest wire the lugs in their equipment will accept and how many of them will fit. Something I've never had to do before. Running multiple smaller aluminum feeders makes me worry about whether or not there will be sufficient clearance inside for lug adaptors and sometimes the pin adaptors are too large to adapt much heavier gage aluminum to lugs intended for copper. I just hope the Chinese feel the price pinch and start specifying aluminum too so that the price differential decreases. Any of you having similar experiences or concerns? Any other problems you have with aluminum versus copper?


I haven't done any outside work for a while but I can tell you that, firstly, you may not be an engineer, so take on a partner. Use your suppliers to figure the project. You will have less worry.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

NolaTigaBait said:


> How do you know if the wire is "compact " or not?...Does it say it on the insulation?


Yes.

Here is a picture of compact aluminum cable.











You can see the strands are not round and there is little air space between the strands.


----------



## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

I see...I doubt my sorry supply house carries such a thing.


----------



## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

B4T said:


> ..by the time I use it, the wire is already paid for..


how is that possible? You haven't billed for it yet so it just collects dust, while if you still had the cash, it could be earning interest and/or being more productive than sitting on a shelf.


----------



## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

NolaTigaBait said:


> I see...I doubt my sorry supply house carries such a thing.


yeah like they all are saying, that stuff can save your arse when conduit fill is at a premium.


----------



## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

BuzzKill said:


> how is that possible? You haven't billed for it yet so it just collects dust, while if you still had the cash, it could be earning interest and/or being more productive than sitting on a shelf.


Right.:thumbsup:


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BuzzKill said:


> how is that possible? You haven't billed for it yet so it just collects dust, while if you still had the cash, it could be earning interest and/or being more productive than sitting on a shelf.


Because the supply house bill is paid.. when I sell the next service change.. I have less of a parts bill to pay..

I do the same thing with meter pans and 200a panels when the cash flow is thicker than usual..

True.. I could have the cash in the bank.. but that 1.5% interest you get doesn't exactly float my boat.. 

Having material sitting on the shelf that is paid for and a fast mover is better for me.. :thumbsup:


----------



## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

B4T said:


> Having material sitting on the shelf that is paid for and a fast mover is better for me.. :thumbsup:


that's just it!
it isn't paid for!
never mind.


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BuzzKill said:


> that's just it!
> *it isn't paid for!*never mind.


If the supply house bill is zero.. ALL material is paid for.. 

Sometimes I can sell a 200 amp service change.. get a check for $2500.00 and I owe nothing on the materials..

THAT is a good feeling..


----------



## Fix or Repair Daily (Mar 22, 2011)

NolaTigaBait said:


> I see...I doubt my sorry supply house carries such a thing.



I've never seen any type of aluminum conductor _without_ compact stranding. I think it's just as universal as dual rated THHN/THWN insulation.


----------



## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

B4T said:


> Because the supply house bill is paid.. when I sell the next service change.. I have less of a parts bill to pay..
> 
> I do the same thing with meter pans and 200a panels when the cash flow is thicker than usual..
> 
> ...


How about do something else with it?...Like something that pays more than 1.5%:blink:...


----------



## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

Fix or Repair Daily said:


> I've never seen any type of aluminum conductor _without_ compact stranding. I think it's just as universal as dual rated THHN/THWN insulation.


Well, I didn't look too closely at the last 4/0 I bought, but it did seem to be smaller or "compact" though...I guess, I'll check it out next time...

I did buy 1000' of it for a job and have about 300' left over. I pulled a B4T...I bought it anticipating price increases:jester:


----------



## Fix or Repair Daily (Mar 22, 2011)

B4T said:


> Having material sitting on the shelf that is paid for and a fast mover is better for me.. :thumbsup:


Great business sense you have there. :no: :laughing:

Material that sits on a shelf is worth $0.00.


----------



## Fix or Repair Daily (Mar 22, 2011)

NolaTigaBait said:


> Well, I didn't look too closely at the last 4/0 I bought, but it did seem to be smaller or "compact" though...I guess, I'll check it out next time...
> 
> I did buy 1000' of it for a job and have about 300' left over. I pulled a B4T...I bought it anticipating price increases:jester:


Yeah, and it will say "compact" on the printing. :thumbsup:

Once you start using B4T business methods, you're guaranteed to go out of business.


----------



## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

Fix or Repair Daily said:


> Yeah, and it will say "compact" on the printing. :thumbsup:
> 
> Once you start using B4T business methods, you're guaranteed to go out of business.


:laughing:....I really NEVER do that, but this particular job was gravy and we figured just buy 1000' instead of 700', I think we got a bulk discount on it...It's paid for and honestly I'm glad we did it...but that doesn't happen much...I usually go to the supply house the day before or of the job.


----------



## Fix or Repair Daily (Mar 22, 2011)

B4T said:


> Even now I will not offer a residential AL service.. they can get someone else..


Must be nice to turn away work in this day and age. 

Oh wait, it's more "B4T-onomics" :laughing:


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Good to see a Troll with a new name..

So how is life under that bridge treating you.. :thumbup:


----------



## Fix or Repair Daily (Mar 22, 2011)

B4T said:


> Good to see a Troll with a new name..
> 
> So how is life under that bridge treating you.. :thumbup:


Oh please, you have no clue what a troll is. 90% of the regular members here regularly engage in trolling, yourself included. Actually, you're one of the worst. :thumbsup:


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

:sleep1::sleep1::sleep1::sleep1::sleep1:


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Fix or Repair Daily said:


> Must be nice to turn away work in this day and age.
> 
> Oh wait, it's more "B4T-onomics" :laughing:


Keep reading .. you might learn how to make more money that collecting tin cans.. :thumbup:


----------



## Fix or Repair Daily (Mar 22, 2011)

B4T said:


> Keep reading .. you might learn how to make more money that collecting tin cans.. :thumbup:


No, please explain how it makes good business sense to turn away work by not using aluminum. :blink:


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Fix or Repair Daily said:


> No, please explain how it makes good business sense to turn away work by not using aluminum. :blink:


BYE BYE.. :laughing::thumbup::laughing:


----------



## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Fix or Repair Daily said:


> No, please explain how it makes good business sense to turn away work by not using aluminum. :blink:


That fat guy made a fat roll off of a few of those fat reels:










They charge just a few extra bucks to have it triplexed or what ever you want to call it. That reel has about 4000' of wire on it and weighs about 600 lbs. One roller, no soap and the run was about 550'. It took about 30-40 minutes to pull. 

Copper free and proud of it.........:thumbsup:


----------



## RobTownfold64 (Mar 17, 2011)

B4T said:


> BYE BYE.. :laughing::thumbup::laughing:


I wish you two would learn to get along.


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

RobTownfold64 said:


> I wish you two would learn to get along.


Rob.. there is a time to talk and there is a time to think..

Guess which one you should be doing now.. :no:


----------



## RobTownfold64 (Mar 17, 2011)

B4T said:


> Rob.. there is a time to talk and there is a time to think..
> 
> Guess which one you should be doing now.. :no:


Bob, I speak my mind openly. 

Peter is crying over this. You should learn to be more nice.


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

RobTownfold64 said:


> Peter is crying over this. You should learn to be more nice.


He didn't seem too upset playing a troll over and over again..

There is no one else to blame but himself..


----------



## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Most guys around here are charging around $1500 for a 200 amp service. Everybody except Gold Medal who is getting probably $8,000.00 for the same job. The only way to have a chance at getting these jobs is to compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges, so I'm in the SE cable boat with the rest of them. I'll even use AL for the H2O GEC but obviously not for the ground rods or Ufer.


----------



## RobTownfold64 (Mar 17, 2011)

Magnettica said:


> Most guys around here are charging around $1500 for a 200 amp service. Everybody except Gold Medal who is getting probably $8,000.00 for the same job. The only way to have a chance at getting these jobs is to compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges, so I'm in the SE cable boat with the rest of them. I'll even use AL for the H2O GEC but obviously not for the ground rods or Ufer.


Wow, has it really gotten that low for a service? 

SEU drops are cheap and easy but AL in PVC is still cheap but looks better.


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> Most guys around here are charging around $1500 for a 200 amp service. Everybody except Gold Medal who is getting probably $8,000.00 for the same job. The only way to have a chance at getting these jobs is to compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges, so I'm in the SE cable boat with the rest of them. I'll even use AL for the H2O GEC but obviously not for the ground rods or Ufer.


They don't even ask if it is SEU or PVC.. but copper is still king..

There have been a few high profile house fires that started with AL wire.. people don't mind paying the extra money..

There is a lot less waste using PVC and THHN over SEU..

A (3) ft. piece of SEU is really (9) feet that you might have laying around for years..


----------



## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

Magnettica said:


> Most guys around here are charging around $1500 for a 200 amp service. Everybody except Gold Medal who is getting probably $8,000.00 for the same job. The only way to have a chance at getting these jobs is to compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges, so I'm in the SE cable boat with the rest of them. I'll even use AL for the H2O GEC but obviously not for the ground rods or Ufer.


 
$1500 ??????

That must be a Central Jersey thing

Even the low ballers are more then that down here.

I had some clown with a Salon up your way that wanted a new service for tanning beds. It involved adding another stack of meters to a Square D stack. A 200 amp feeder to a main lug panel,running 2 80 amp lines about 80ft thru a drop ceiling,installing step down transformers and disconnects for both beds.

As I was handing him my card he said some told him a service was $1500 and each bed should run about $350.

I took my card back,laughed,drove away.


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

B4T said:


> There have been a few high profile house fires that started with AL wire.. people don't mind paying the extra money..
> 
> ..


I bet there are more copper fires than aluminum fires!


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

brian john said:


> I bet there are more copper fires than aluminum fires!


Without a doubt.


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

brian john said:


> I bet there are more copper fires than aluminum fires!


I would say that 95% of the houses I have pigtailed over the years have at least one box where the wires are burning up with melted insulation..

Long Island building in the 60's and 70's was on a grand scale that has never been matched..

Many large developments have over (500) houses that are wired with straight AL and many more with copper clad AL..

Lots of people had their houses pigtailed in the late 70's and early 80's when a family of (5) dies in a house fire..

Now those same people never got the pig tailing inspected and are finding out the method use.. basic wire nuts.. is not approved..

As an added safety factor, any house I pigtail gets AFCI breakers.. :thumbsup:


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> I would say that 95% of the houses I have pigtailed over the years have at least one box where the wires are burning up with melted insulation..
> 
> Long Island building in the 60's and 70's was on a grand scale that has never been matched..
> 
> ...



Which has nothing at all to do with using aluminum for feeders.


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Which has nothing at all to do with using aluminum for feeders.


I agree.. but people hear AL wire and they freak.. that is my point..


----------



## RobTownfold64 (Mar 17, 2011)

B4T said:


> I agree.. but people hear AL wire and they freak.. that is my point..


Then don't tell them.


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

RobTownfold64 said:


> Then don't tell them.


Great idea.. :blink:

That is the fastest way of getting yourself into trouble with an angry customer who wants their money back..

They file a complaint with Consumer Affairs and I get a letter to "fix" the problem.. no thanks.. :no:


----------



## RobTownfold64 (Mar 17, 2011)

B4T said:


> Great idea.. :blink:
> 
> That is the fastest way of getting yourself into trouble with an angry customer who wants their money back..
> 
> They file a complaint with Consumer Affairs and I get a letter to "fix" the problem.. no thanks.. :no:


Angry customer that wants their money back? That makes no sense. Aluminum wiring is a standard in new services. The customer wouldn't have a leg to stand on. They could file all the complaints that they want, you have nothing to "fix". You are just extending the aluminum line coming from the PoCo.

Do you approve every screw and fastener with the customer? Do you make sure they approve every wirenut?

When I run an SER to a new subpanel, do you think I beg and plead with the customer in order to install it? Or do you think I just run what I want to run, as long as it's code compliant? Are you trying to tell me that "Consumer Affairs" can come in and make me "fix" it??


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

RobTownfold64 said:


> Do you approve every screw and fastener with the customer? Do you make sure they approve every wirenut?




_'I am B4T and I approve this wirenut' _ :laughing:


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

RobTownfold64 said:


> Angry customer that wants their money back? That makes no sense. Aluminum wiring is a standard in new services. The customer wouldn't have a leg to stand on. They could file all the complaints that they want, you have nothing to "fix". You are just extending the aluminum line coming from the PoCo.
> 
> Do you approve every screw and fastener with the customer? Do you make sure they approve every wirenut?


Consumer Affairs is exactly what is sounds like and they control the show..

The HO always wins and the contractor is always the bad guy..

All I am saying is the aggravation factor along with phone calls, meetings, and paperwork is not worth keeping the customer in the dark about wiring material being used..

Say the HO calls up another EC to check out the service.. the first thing the new guy is going to say is.. "He should of told you or wrote it down on the estimate."


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> Consumer Affairs is exactly what is sounds like and they control the show..
> 
> The HO always wins and the contractor is always the bad guy..
> 
> ...


What the hell are you talking about?

Really, what the heck are you saying?:blink::blink::blink:

AL gets installed in homes all the time. 

What do you run in a home for an electric range?


----------



## RobTownfold64 (Mar 17, 2011)

B4T said:


> Consumer Affairs is exactly what is sounds like and they control the show..
> 
> The HO always wins and the contractor is always the bad guy..
> 
> ...


There is absolutely nothing saying that you should have specified all the material that you used in your installation. They don't have a leg to stand on. 

What you are saying is that all the Nazi war criminals came together in Long Island and developed a government organization to help consumers defraud electrical contractors.

Hang up on any phone calls, don't show up at any meetings, and the only paperwork that needs to be scene is the passed inspection sticker.

How many times has this Consumer Affairs department cited you for burying splice boxes??


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BBQ said:


> What the hell are you talking about?
> 
> Really, what the heck are you saying?:blink::blink::blink:
> 
> ...


All copper.. that is how it goes around here..

The county even banned ALL aluminum at one time..


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

RobTownfold64 said:


> There is absolutely nothing saying that you should have specified all the material that you used in your installation. They don't have a leg to stand on.
> 
> What you are saying is that all the Nazi war criminals came together in Long Island and developed a government organization to help consumers defraud electrical contractors.
> 
> ...


I have never had a problem with Consumer Affairs, but I have talked to people who have..

A smart man avoids being on their radar.. right or wrong.. :thumbsup:

There is nothing wrong with my PVC boxes..


----------



## Shorty Circuit (Jun 26, 2010)

RIVETER said:


> I haven't done any outside work for a while but I can tell you that, firstly, you may not be an engineer, so take on a partner. Use your suppliers to figure the project. You will have less worry.


Don't tell my boss. So far I've got him convinced.

While you guys have been clowning around here, I've been doing some research and reading and......I've come to the conclusion that aluminum is acceptable in circumstances where it fits. Have to be careful about lug sizes on equipment and clearances though. See, you can teach and old dog new tricks after all.

BTW Rosie the Riveter, I don't do estimates, just "opinions of probable cost." If I had to estimate jobs to win contracts and still make a profit for a living....I'd go broke and starve to death. No way to beat all those chizzlers out there who will figure out how to take every last screw and strand of wire out of a job and make it out the front door and down the block with a check before it falls apart.


----------



## Abominable Sparky (Mar 22, 2011)

B4T said:


> There is nothing wrong with my PVC boxes..


True, other than the fact that it's amateur level DIY hack work, there is absolutely nothing wrong with them. :laughing:

You have no shame whatsoever apparently. :laughing:


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Abominable Sparky said:


> True, other than the fact that it's amateur level DIY hack work, there is absolutely nothing wrong with them. :laughing:
> 
> You have no shame whatsoever apparently. :laughing:


Don't you ever get tired of thinking of new names for the Trolling you do.. :no:


----------



## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

B4T said:


> Don't you ever get tired of thinking of new names for the Trolling you do.. :no:


Don't you get tired of asking?


----------



## Abominable Sparky (Mar 22, 2011)

B4T said:


> Don't you ever get tired of thinking of new names for the Trolling you do.. :no:


No, I just enjoy ragging on your hack landscape lighting. :jester:


----------



## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

B4T said:


> All copper.. that is how it goes around here..
> 
> The county even banned ALL aluminum at one time..


Only for residential, Al is allowed inside for commercial and industrial only. Many guys out here now are using 4/0 al xlpe in PVC and i've even started seeing some using 4/0 al seu. the customer gets what their willing to pay for.


----------



## Abominable Sparky (Mar 22, 2011)

NolaTigaBait said:


> Don't you get tired of asking?


He has a mild troll obsession.


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

NolaTigaBait said:


> Don't you get tired of asking?


Did you say something REMOVED.. :whistling2::laughing:


----------



## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

B4T said:


> Did you say something REMOVED.. :whistling2::laughing:


Fuk you, pay me. I think it's something to live by.


----------



## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)




----------



## Abominable Sparky (Mar 22, 2011)

Hardly anyone in my area installs conduit for a service, let alone copper wire. You'd be a fool to try to compete with copper and conduit against SEU cable.


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Abominable Sparky said:


> Hardly anyone in my area installs conduit for a service, let alone copper wire. You'd be a fool to try to compete with copper and conduit against SEU cable.


Exactly what is "your area".. or does that change with the screen name you are using at the moment..


----------



## RobTownfold64 (Mar 17, 2011)

Abominable Sparky said:


> Hardly anyone in my area installs conduit for a service, let alone copper wire. You'd be a fool to try to compete with copper and conduit against SEU cable.


PVC and AL is a perfect price point, IMO. It's cheaper than using copper but looks better than SEU.


----------



## Abominable Sparky (Mar 22, 2011)

RobTownfold64 said:


> PVC and AL is a perfect price point, IMO. It's cheaper than using copper but looks better than SEU.


I think the exact opposite - conduit methods on a house are just plain ugly. I think SEU is the least intrusive and hides the best and is obviously easiest and fastest to install. Oh, and according to some it's the most deadly. :laughing:


----------



## Abominable Sparky (Mar 22, 2011)

B4T said:


> Exactly what is "your area".. or does that change with the screen name you are using at the moment..


My area can be determined by a map that is buried in one of your hack PVC boxes. :thumbsup:


----------



## RobTownfold64 (Mar 17, 2011)

Abominable Sparky said:


> I think the exact opposite - conduit methods on a house are just plain ugly. I think SEU is the least intrusive and hides the best and is obviously easiest and fastest to install. Oh, and according to some it's the most deadly. :laughing:


Do I know you?!?!?


:thumbup::thumbup:


ETA: This post made my post count into my Local number, lol.


----------



## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

Peter, how old are you?...kinda curious...


----------



## Abominable Sparky (Mar 22, 2011)

NolaTigaBait said:


> Peter, how old are you?...kinda curious...


The answer is hidden in a PVC box on Long Island. :laughing:


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

He has the mind of a child, but his drivers license says (31).. just a good guess..


----------



## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

Abominable Sparky said:


> The answer is hidden in a PVC box on Long Island. :laughing:


Ok, that's pretty good:laughing:


----------



## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

I have to say, he has a very creative mind and his screen names are classic.


----------



## RobTownfold64 (Mar 17, 2011)

NolaTigaBait said:


> Peter, how old are you?...kinda curious...


The only difference between Peter and you is that you haven't done something to piss Shunk off.


----------



## RobTownfold64 (Mar 17, 2011)

NolaTigaBait said:


> I have to say, he has a very creative mind and his screen names are classic.


Like which names?


----------



## Abominable Sparky (Mar 22, 2011)

NolaTigaBait said:


> Ok, that's pretty good:laughing:


Yeah, sometimes I come up with a good one. :laughing:



NolaTigaBait said:


> I have to say, he has a very creative mind and his screen names are classic.


Thanks! I do what I do strictly for entertainment value. If I can make one person laugh, it's all worth it to me. :thumbsup:


----------



## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

RobTownfold64 said:


> The only difference between Peter and you is that you haven't done something to piss Shunk off.


In what sense are we the same?


----------



## RobTownfold64 (Mar 17, 2011)

NolaTigaBait said:


> In what sense are we the same?


Electricians having some fun on a forum.


----------



## Abominable Sparky (Mar 22, 2011)

RobTownfold64 said:


> The only difference between Peter and you is that you haven't done something to piss Shunk off.


Heresy! The banning rules are applied completely fairly and evenly to everyone here! :w00t:


----------



## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

Abominable Sparky said:


> Heresy! The banning rules are applied completely fairly and evenly to everyone here! :w00t:


I think they are...I make one off the wall, offensive, comment every 6 months...Peter is relentless...


----------



## Abominable Sparky (Mar 22, 2011)

NolaTigaBait said:


> I think they are...I make one off the wall, offensive, comment every 6 months...Peter is relentless...


My point was simply that some people get major amounts of latitude to bend the rules....like...cough cough...Shockdoc. I am banned and he gets to stay? Huh? :blink:


----------



## RobTownfold64 (Mar 17, 2011)

NolaTigaBait said:


> I think they are...I make one off the wall, offensive, comment every 6 months...Peter is relentless...


I got a lifetime ban because I asked Jlarson if he was upset that his girlfriend was gone (when jrwjr got banned :laughing.


----------



## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

Abominable Sparky said:


> My point was simply that some people get major amounts of latitude to bend the rules....like...cough cough...Shockdoc. I am banned and he gets to stay? Huh? :blink:


That's b/c everyone starts crying to the admins and the easiest thing to do is to ban you.


----------



## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

RobTownfold64 said:


> I got a lifetime ban because I asked Jlarson if he was upset that his girlfriend was gone (when jrwjr got banned :laughing.


I never heard about that one...well done.


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol::lol:


----------



## RobTownfold64 (Mar 17, 2011)

Jlarson said:


> :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol::lol:


:cursing:


----------



## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

FACT #1:
The only way to get in trouble by using AL conductors is by using them when copper was specifically spec'd. If the only spec you have is "Install New Service", then no one can say anything.

FACT #2:
Material sitting on a shelf actually has a NEGATIVE value, because every square foot of warehousing space costs you money. Hence, the less material on a shelf, the less space you need, and the less you need to pay for warehousing.


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## Smoke (Feb 25, 2011)

Shorty Circuit said:


> I am not a happy camper right now. This week for the first time in my life I had to spec out an alternate for aluminum wire. With the Chinese buying up copper like crazy, the difference between the price of aluminum and copper has soared. Aluminum transformer windings, aluminum bus, and now aluminum wire. This means larger feeders, parallel feeders, larger conduit, and checking with manufacturers to find out what the largest wire the lugs in their equipment will accept and how many of them will fit. Something I've never had to do before. Running multiple smaller aluminum feeders makes me worry about whether or not there will be sufficient clearance inside for lug adaptors and sometimes the pin adaptors are too large to adapt much heavier gage aluminum to lugs intended for copper. I just hope the Chinese feel the price pinch and start specifying aluminum too so that the price differential decreases. Any of you having similar experiences or concerns? Any other problems you have with aluminum versus copper?


we have been using al for a good 10 years, on most jobs, some insist on cu.
we offer the customer a cheaper alternative and they usually go for it.
occasionally, the wires don't fit, we just order the right lug kit from the factory.
sux for scrap but the works a lot easier :whistling2:


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Abominable Sparky said:


> My point was simply that some people get major amounts of latitude to bend the rules....like...cough cough...Shockdoc. I am banned and he gets to stay? Huh? :blink:


Insanity is my defense. I'm not responsible and cannot be held accountable


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Shockdoc said:


> Insanity is my defense. I'm not responsible and cannot be held accountable


Chances are he got banned for raiding the forum under multiple screen names..

You have always raised hell here under the same name.. that takes skill.. :thumbup:


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

B4T said:


> You have always raised hell here under the same name.. that takes skill.. :thumbup:


no it doesnt it just takes determination.

~Matt


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

I'm easy here, a customer reffered to me as an evil spirit summoned from the dead today. Thank God tomorrow is friday, I 've had my full share of dealing with stupid for this week.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

Shockdoc said:


> I'm easy here, a customer reffered to me as an evil spirit summoned from the dead today. Thank God tomorrow is friday, I 've had my full share of dealing with stupid for this week.


Im sure its ALL the customers fault too. :thumbsup:

~Matt


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

TOOL_5150 said:


> Im sure its ALL the customers fault too. :thumbsup:
> 
> ~Matt


It is when they insist they should tell me how to do my job. Sure, i'll remove the molding , notch the sheetrock and run romex under it just like they did it in the Stanley wiring book......Not.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

Shockdoc said:


> It is when they insist they should tell me how to do my job. Sure, i'll remove the molding , notch the sheetrock and run romex under it just like they did it in the Stanley wiring book......Not.


:laughing: gotcha. Nothing worse than a customer that owns a wiring 1-2-3 book...

~Matt


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

TOOL_5150 said:


> :laughing: gotcha. Nothing worse than a customer that owns a wiring 1-2-3 book...


 Evidently you've never worked for a customer who somehow got themselves a copy of the NEC handbook.... :cursing: :cursing:

-John


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

Big John said:


> Evidently you've never worked for a customer who somehow got themselves a copy of the NEC handbook.... :cursing: :cursing:
> 
> 
> -John



Nope. Ive only seen a wiring 1-2-3 guide on site before. The people here are too cheap to buy a $100+ book.

~Matt


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## Shorty Circuit (Jun 26, 2010)

What is normally specified for aluminum in place of THHN/THWN copper, THHN/THWN aluminum or XHHW Aluminum? Thanks in advance. BTW, this will go in RMC or EMT, not direct burial.


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## Smoke (Feb 25, 2011)

Shorty Circuit said:


> What is normally specified for aluminum in place of THHN/THWN copper, THHN/THWN aluminum or XHHW Aluminum? Thanks in advance. BTW, this will go in RMC or EMT, not direct burial.


xhhw aluminum

i don't think ive seen thhn/thwn al (could be wrong)


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## greenhorn sparky (Mar 26, 2011)

Def xhhw. Make sure to check 310.15(B)for correct sizing. 310.16 if your still in the '08


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