# replacing UG fed meter enclosure while hot



## jw0445 (Oct 9, 2009)

It's not worth the anxiety. Have the poco kill it, do your thing, have an inspector on board to call for reconnect. You'll sleep better.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

You'll need the PUCO to pull the meter anyway, they can kill the service while they are there. 

I've done a couple of them hot (the PUCO around here will allow a contractor to pull a meter provided they approve of it first). But this was back when I used to do a lot of stupid things.........

I doubt if I'd do it hot these days.


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## wiz1997 (Mar 30, 2021)

jw0445 said:


> It's not worth the anxiety. Have the poco kill it, do your thing, have an inspector on board to call for reconnect. You'll sleep better.


And he will have a chance to wake up.

I've done overhead drops by cutting the drops at the weather head, but have not, nor will, not attempt to replace an underground fed meter socket.
Not much room for a mistake.

The saying goes:

There are OLD electricians and there are BOLD electricians, but there are no OLD BOLD electricians.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Im sure its done all of the time. 
It has to be your choice, I dont believe anyone here is going to give you permission to do it.


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## mikewillnot (Apr 2, 2013)

Southeast Power said:


> Im sure its done all of the time.


Hot? I'd be shocked. So to speak.


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## mikewillnot (Apr 2, 2013)

More siding complications with replacing the enclosure with a larger one, for sure. Not sure what's behind that "conduit wrap" they made up. Genius.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

micromind said:


> You'll need the PUCO to pull the meter anyway, they can kill the service while they are there.
> 
> I've done a couple of them hot (the PUCO around here will allow a contractor to pull a meter provided they approve of it first). But this was back when I used to do a lot of stupid things.........
> 
> I doubt if I'd do it hot these days.


Yep. I've also removed hot panel/meterbase changes from the list of stupid things I still do.


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

Don’t even take the risk of doing it hot.

Consider a name change: Mike-will-not-do-it-hot


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

yankeejoe1141 said:


> Don’t even take the risk of doing it hot.
> 
> Consider a name change: Mike-will-not-do-it-hot


Mike-Lives- Matter


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

Why risk it. The potential for injury is not worth the small amount of money or time you would save.
It makes about as much sense as a brain surgeon operating with a blind fold.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Easy said:


> Why risk it. The potential for injury is not worth the small amount of money or time you would save.
> It makes about as much sense as a brain surgeon operating with a blind fold.


120/240 single phase just kind of sparks like welding. You can get it under control. It doesn’t blow up.
277/ 480 just goes boom, it freaking goes boom and it makes lots of heat.


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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

We come across similar projects. One thing leads to another. Everyone draws the line where they are comfortable.

When I look at jobs like this, one thing I like to take into consideration is the age of the install. In your case, if it's from '79, it's approximately 42 years old. I'd say they got their money's worth out of the installation. If there is an old service pedestal in the woods, and possibly a lateral that may need to be replaced also, in addition to the metermain, this would seem to be as good a time as any to redo it, and give them another 42 years, if that's what's needed.

I know other folks look at the cost and the possibility of opening a can of worms as their primary focus, I'm usually the opposite and prioritize taking it as far as I need to, to get it right, but I know the cost will sometimes turn off customers and I also know not all electricians feel the same.

It comes down to what you feel is best. 

In my opinion, working around hot unfused service conductors just so you don't have to involve the power co. doesn't seem like a reasonable trade off to me. The risk/benefit ratio just isn't there.


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

Southeast Power said:


> 120/240 single phase just kind of sparks like welding. You can get it under control. It doesn’t blow up.
> 277/ 480 just goes boom, it freaking goes boom and it makes lots of heat.


Just the same I'd rather not tape up the ends of live 100 amp feed and slide the sharp edge of a meter can over them hoping nothing arks out. I'm just too old for that type of excitement.
Working on a live overhead feed is less of a threat IMO. Besides I don't have any PPE's for working hot and the small company that I work for doesn't plan on getting any because we do do service work. I agree with you on one thing and that is 120/240 is good for welding but it's best if you stick to a 20 amp circuit for that.


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## hornetd (Oct 30, 2014)

In 45 years as an actively serving firefighter and emergency medical technician I only ran 1 call for someone trying to work service conductors hot. The good news is that we did transport a patient instead of calling out the State Medical Examiner's staff. The bad news is that the County required that the entire home be inspected for electrical damage by a Master Electrician and meggered at 300 volts. I don't know if that caused additional work but the cost of the in person testing by a licensed Master Electrician probably stung a bit. All in all I'd say Harry Homeowner got out of pretty light but I doubt if he felt that way at the time. The Hospital Emergency Department visit alone would have cost him hundreds of dollars. I'll bet that "sunburn" on his hands hurt like hell the next day as well. 

-- 
Tom Horne


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## Elec Tricks (Nov 17, 2018)

I understand your desire to work on it hot to avoid the hassle to the POCO and everyone for disconnecting it at the pedestal junction box. But when I look back at the times I have worked on such things, I think, I am glad they worked out well, but in hindsight I wish I would have taken better care/saftey of me than avoiding hassles to the client or the POCO. Just say NO! there is a safer way.


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## Superman (Mar 19, 2019)

with age comes wisdom, my wisdom says do not do it . your worth more than whatever money you would make from job.
thats my 2 cents.


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## magicone2571 (Apr 29, 2021)

Few years ago I did a 125 to 200 swap. Poco couldn't locate the spice point. They pulled the lines hot off the meter, taped the **** out of them and told me good luck. Everything went fine but was a tad tense sliding the new housing on.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Nope.


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## mikewillnot (Apr 2, 2013)

magicone2571 said:


> Few years ago I did a 125 to 200 swap. Poco couldn't locate the spice point.


This is hard to believe. Not saying it didn't happen, just that it's hard to believe.


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## magicone2571 (Apr 29, 2021)

mikewillnot said:


> This is hard to believe. Not saying it didn't happen, just that it's hard to believe.


It was a weird setup. Part of it was that to disconnect my line they would have to cut power to a few other homes. It wasn't the first time that I've been told by a Poco they couldn't find their lines. Was doing a house built in the 70s. Needed to run a new 4/0 triplex from their splice point to meter. 3 weeks it took to find it. It had gotten buried then someone planted a tree nearly ontop of it.


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

Southeast Power said:


> 120/240 single phase just kind of sparks like welding. You can get it under control. It doesn’t blow up.
> 277/ 480 just goes boom, it freaking goes boom and it makes lots of heat.


This is why OSHA, NFPA 70E, and others were kind of willing to ignore 240/120. In 2009 two electricians in Georgia were unwilling to wait for the lineman to get there so they started disassembling a temporary construction panel ahead of time. They were wearing the latest in high fashion electrician wear...shorts, tank tops, and flip flops. I believe the OSHA synposis mentioned something about fishing after the job. One spent quality time in the burn unit and the other took a dirt nap. Similarly testing for the joint NPFA/IEEE 1584 testing showed that it's not just possible but under the right conditions definitely will happen at least in the 200 voltish range. Looks like impossible with pure 120 V so far.

So it can happen. It's just not all that common. Hey it took how many decades for the guys in tank tops and flip fops doing electrical work to finally figure out a way to do it.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

mikewillnot said:


> More siding complications with replacing the enclosure with a larger one, for sure. Not sure what's behind that "conduit wrap" they made up. Genius.


This is not the typical vinyl siding install that i usually see. mine are seldom trimmed out. few are around here. but that being said, i am always glad when the box is larger. hold the box up, align with some reference point i have made (usually a ko). mark with sharpie, trim with battery grinder and cut off wheel, not a grinding wheel. usually takes less than a minute to cut/enlarge the new opening. IF it is trimmed, i just tell the ho when i go look at the job 1rst time that he will need a vinyl man to fix it.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

magicone2571 said:


> Few years ago I did a 125 to 200 swap. Poco couldn't locate the spice point. They pulled the lines hot off the meter, taped the **** out of them and told me good luck. Everything went fine but was a tad tense sliding the new housing on.


Right there is where i would say NO


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## WannabeTesla (Feb 24, 2020)

I vote you take it as far as it needs to go. Stuff is finite. The utility has the money, the man power, and the responsibility so make them do it right. My experience is that they like people seeing that they actually provide a service- not just a bill each month. This is why your customer pays their utility bill and you. I bet your customer sees the new equipment and plants a big juicy kiss right on your cheek.


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## mburtis (Sep 1, 2018)

1927 they weren't scared of 240V.


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## Veteran Sparky (Apr 21, 2021)

Southeast Power said:


> 120/240 single phase just kind of sparks like welding. You can get it under control. It doesn’t blow up.
> 277/ 480 just goes boom, it freaking goes boom and it makes lots of heat.


I really can't believe this is you're response. I presume you're joking.

I have replaced meter sockets fed UG. No events occurred but could have, And as I am older and wiser I tend to follow the 'book' now and preach it to my guys. Call the utility. If they don't like...who cares. Its their job. NFPA dictates no hot work except under certain conditions. Which many of you know. Inconvenience is not one of them..


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

mburtis said:


> View attachment 158498
> 
> 
> 1927 they weren't scared of 240V.


notice the book says a 3 wire system and mentions neutral but not ground. systems were not referenced to ground then, you could stand barefoot in a mud puddle and touch a hv line, if you could reach it. the ground was not included in the system, everything was isolated from ground. therefor it was not a return path of any kind. kind of like your car battery, current will not flow to the dirt from the + , but it will flow from + to -


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## catsparky1 (Sep 24, 2013)

Electricity don't fell pain and doesn't care that you do .


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## Leehaefele (Sep 17, 2015)

Elec Tricks said:


> I understand your desire to work on it hot to avoid the hassle to the POCO and everyone for disconnecting it at the pedestal junction box. But when I look back at the times I have worked on such things, I think, I am glad they worked out well, but in hindsight I wish I would have taken better care/saftey of me than avoiding hassles to the client or the POCO. Just say NO! there is a safer way.


Statistics I have seen show that most injuries from this sort of situation are from the flash, not the shock. Possibly flying molten metal??


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

A month ago i watched a city guy go up a fiberglass ladder and cut the wires with a pair of metal bolt cutters. I though wow that's dodgy but hes on a fiberglass ladder and the bolt cutters have rubber grips.
After we were done i watched him go back up the ladder and bare hand strip the cables with a pocket knife then crimp the connectors with out a care in the world. 

Only thing that crossed my mind was...........god im a *****


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

gpop said:


> A month ago i watched a city guy go up a fiberglass ladder and cut the wires with a pair of metal bolt cutters. I though wow that's dodgy but hes on a fiberglass ladder and the bolt cutters have rubber grips.
> After we were done i watched him go back up the ladder and bare hand strip the cables with a pocket knife then crimp the connectors with out a care in the world.
> 
> Only thing that crossed my mind was...........god im a ***


Don‘t ground out and complete the circuit.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

gpop said:


> A month ago i watched a city guy go up a fiberglass ladder and cut the wires with a pair of metal bolt cutters. I though wow that's dodgy but hes on a fiberglass ladder and the bolt cutters have rubber grips.
> After we were done i watched him go back up the ladder and bare hand strip the cables with a pocket knife then crimp the connectors with out a care in the world.
> 
> Only thing that crossed my mind was...........god im a ***


Many years ago my father only had an Aluminum ladder. There were no fiberglass ladders back then and wood was too heavy and you had to treat it. For many years we did service changes with it. He had two - 2 X 10s that he put under each leg. Never got shocked.


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

kb1jb1 said:


> Many years ago my father only had an Aluminum ladder. There were no fiberglass ladders back then and wood was too heavy and you had to treat it. For many years we did service changes with it. He had two - 2 X 10s that he put under each leg. Never got shocked.


Wow, crazy how things change. Now when I see a van with aluminum ladders on top I just think painter.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

And we used romex connectors instead of crimps, bugs, or taps. The utility would follow up after and cut whatever we used off and put their own crimps on so many electricians around here used what ever we could. We were only getting around $400.00 for a 100 amp service.


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

kb1jb1 said:


> And we used romex connectors instead of crimps, bugs, or taps. The utility would follow up after and cut whatever we used off and put their own crimps on so many electricians around here used what ever we could. We were only getting around $400.00 for a 100 amp service.


Thinking about that price I’m glad some things changed, lol!


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

yankeejoe1141 said:


> Thinking about that price I’m glad some things changed, lol!


I remember my father complaining when the meter pans went up to $18.00 . Minimum wage was$1.62.+/-


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## Wardenclyffe (Jan 11, 2019)




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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

So anyway,,,,,,,, Big Blue wire nuts are your friend. So are dry leather gloves. And Scotch 33. And insulated screwdrivers. One more thing to mention. In the underground pull box where the laterals are tapped into the secondary, the connections are usually made in "sweethearts" which are longer versions of Polaris tap devices. Of course I wouldn't suggest that you just go ahead and swap out old socket and disconnect the lateral hot feeds out there in that 60 foot away pull box, cause that would be a bad and probably illegal thing to do........................ Oh, make sure you dump the loads first. And get paid in cash , no paperwork.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

What did you say macmikeman? What underground pull box? Ok , never mind....

Did I mention, sometimes Mike will.................


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

macmikeman said:


> What did you say macmikeman? What underground pull box? Ok , never mind....
> 
> Did I mention, sometimes Mike will.................


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