# Undeliverable Citation



## Barrence (Mar 26, 2020)

I recently was "caught" by an inspector, while I was setting up a float controlled 24v solenoid (which just plugs into the wall via a transformer). I'm not technically an electrician (I do water filtration work), but I never thought or realized that this was something that was considered electrical work. I've done loads of them in the past with no issues. Nothing is permanently connected to any main supply. Like I said, it's just a low voltage transformer that runs a solenoid valve and plugs into an outlet. Anyway, even the inspector didn't know if it was something that was allowed, so he said he had to go back and find out. He also said that was exceptions for like irrigation guys that were hooking up solenoid valves, which to me seems like the same thing as this.

About a week later, he left me a message and said they were sending me multiple citations. So far, I've gotten several notes in the mail from the USPS about how I need to be present to receive these citations, and I haven't been. I'm wondering if anybody knows what will happen when the stuff gets sent back to them because they couldn't get it to me.


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## Barrence (Mar 26, 2020)

This was in snohomish county, WA by the way


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## J F Go (Mar 1, 2014)

If it was me, I would take the citations, take them to a lawyer and make him show you in court that you were in violation. I wouldn't, under any circumstance, admit anything without my day in court.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

An electrician’s job ends after the receptacle is installed. What the owner plugs into that receptacle is his business.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> An electrician’s job ends after the receptacle is installed. What the owner plugs into that receptacle is his business.


It's not that simple. My state has laws and license requirements for security systems that plug into receptacles as well as low voltage landscape lights, etc.


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

Barrence said:


> I'm wondering if anybody knows what will happen when the stuff gets sent back to them because they couldn't get it to me.


They'll hand it to a bailiff.

Agree with 99cents that plugging something in isn't covered, but do you have a business licence, insurance etc ??


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## Helmut (May 7, 2014)

What was the solenoid for, and how did he catch you, if you don't mind me asking?

And what info did you give him? Drivers license, business card...ect?
He left you a message? You didn't answer right?


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

HackWork said:


> It's not that simple. My state has laws and license requirements for security systems that plug into receptacles as well as low voltage landscape lights, etc.



Nanny state :biggrin:


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

I'm not sure what you mean by "water filtration work" but if you're one of those scammers who knocks on a door saying "we're testing water in your area today and you need to fill this plastic bottle so we can test your water..." then you deserve everyone one of those citations and many more. The "test" is to drop something in the water that causes a particular reaction and convince (lie to) the customer that it's dangerous water, but for only five grand we can save your life today!


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

emtnut said:


> Nanny state :biggrin:


Beat me to it! 

Anything for a buck.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

emtnut said:


> Nanny state :biggrin:


Agreed. We call New Jersey "Canada Lite". :biggrin:


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Barrence said:


> This was in snohomish county, WA by the way


That county is under lock-down.

:crying:


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

I don't get it.. So the float is part of the equipment you were installing/servicing? And it is just a plug in unit?

I fail to see how that would constitute electrical work, anymore than a spa/pool guy setting the controls on a pump, or replacing the pump, or a plumber replacing a dishwasher or garbage disposal, or the appliance delivery guys that install the cord on a dryer/range.


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

You do a little more than plug it in (at least on the ones i have seen). The solenoid only comes with 6" of wire so its butt splice heaven. 

With out the citations listing what rules you have broken its hard to tell if this is national, state or local code.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

If any of the plumbing or wiring is installed, it's subject to building codes. If it's discrete, portable, standalone device like a Keurig machine, it isn't. The Keurig's wiring is all internal, the water supply is a jug on the side, and the drain is a tray under your mug. You can unplug the thing and put it in the box it was sold in and return it to Target. 

It sounds like there may be no electrical installation, but it sounds like there is a plumbing installation.


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

HackWork said:


> Agreed. We call New Jersey "Canada Lite". :biggrin:



:vs_laugh::vs_laugh:


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## Barrence (Mar 26, 2020)

Helmut said:


> What was the solenoid for, and how did he catch you, if you don't mind me asking?
> 
> And what info did you give him? Drivers license, business card...ect?
> He left you a message? You didn't answer right?


It was for a shutting off the water going into an atmospheric storage tank. A float switch controls a normally closed solenoid valve which is powered by a 24v transformer. It IS something that is manually put together, but I didn't think that mattered with a situation like that. He saw me putting it together when he was there to do a final on the house. It was new construction. Unfortunately, I gave him way too much info. Wasn't thinking straight in the situation. I didn't answer his phone call, but he has all my business info, which he couldn've gotten off my truck anyways.


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## Barrence (Mar 26, 2020)

emtnut said:


> Nanny state :biggrin:


You're not wrong there


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## Barrence (Mar 26, 2020)

MikeFL said:


> I'm not sure what you mean by "water filtration work" but if you're one of those scammers who knocks on a door saying "we're testing water in your area today and you need to fill this plastic bottle so we can test your water..." then you deserve everyone one of those citations and many more. The "test" is to drop something in the water that causes a particular reaction and convince (lie to) the customer that it's dangerous water, but for only five grand we can save your life today!


I'm not sure who those people are, but I don't knock on anybody's door unless they ask me to come look at their water. I work on residential wells, and they often have pretty bad water. This particular place has a huge amount of iron in it, as well as tannins, and general low water production. Before treatment, it looks like dark tea coming out of the hose. I rarely see things that are harmful, just nuisance stuff that causes staining and whatnot. It's usually the opposite actually. People call me freaking out about minimal amounts of harmful things like arsenic or coliform, and I have to calm them down and convince them it's not as big of a deal as they're making it out to be.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

Barrence said:


> I'm not sure who those people are, but I don't knock on anybody's door unless they ask me to come look at their water. I work on residential wells, and they often have pretty bad water. This particular place has a huge amount of iron in it, as well as tannins, and general low water production. Before treatment, it looks like dark tea coming out of the hose. I rarely see things that are harmful, just nuisance stuff that causes staining and whatnot. It's usually the opposite actually. People call me freaking out about minimal amounts of harmful things like arsenic or coliform, and I have to calm them down and convince them it's not as big of a deal as they're making it out to be.


So do you carry the appropriate license for what you do?

I still fail to see the need for an electrician on something specialized like this, specific to a certain craft.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

If the inspector is making a fuss over this, he must be inexperienced. Water guys have always been around. Almost it's own different trade. I imagine states have different ways of looking at it or regulating it, but I'm surprised he's making a fuss over it. I can't imagine him realizing all of a sudden, what's that piece of equipment and who works on those?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

nrp3 said:


> If the inspector is making a fuss over this, he must be inexperienced. Water guys have always been around. Almost it's own different trade. I imagine states have different ways of looking at it or regulating it, but I'm surprised he's making a fuss over it. I can't imagine him realizing all of a sudden, what's that piece of equipment and who works on those?


All of the other contractors who did this work might be properly licensed.

Here is my state:



> Does New Jersey offer a "low voltage" electrical license, or any other category of "limited" electrical license, as an alternative to meeting the qualifications needed to obtain an electrical contractor's license?
> *No. The electrical contractor license is the only category of electrical license available in New Jersey.
> *
> Anyone interested in performing any type of electrical work in New Jersey should fully familiarize themselves with N.J.S.A. 45:5A-18 "Exempt work or construction". There you will find details regarding "Electrical work or construction which…shall not be included within the business of electrical contracting so as to require the securing of a business permit…". Generally speaking, unless the electrical work you are interested in performing is covered within this section, an electrical contractor's license is required. Of particular note is N.J.S.A. 45:5A-18(j) "Any work with a potential of less than 10 volts". *Again, generally speaking, electrical work with a potential of 10 or more volts is not exempt from licensing requirements.*
> ...


His state might be like this, or have a low voltage license, etc.


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## Helmut (May 7, 2014)

Barrence said:


> It was for a shutting off the water going into an atmospheric storage tank. A float switch controls a normally closed solenoid valve which is powered by a 24v transformer. It IS something that is manually put together, but I didn't think that mattered with a situation like that. He saw me putting it together when he was there to do a final on the house. It was new construction. Unfortunately, I gave him way too much info. Wasn't thinking straight in the situation. I didn't answer his phone call, but he has all my business info, which he couldn've gotten off my truck anyways.



Damn dude, sorry to hear this. I do wish you the best of luck....


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

Barrence said:


> I'm not sure who those people are, but I don't knock on anybody's door unless they ask me to come look at their water. I work on residential wells, and they often have pretty bad water. This particular place has a huge amount of iron in it, as well as tannins, and general low water production. Before treatment, it looks like dark tea coming out of the hose. I rarely see things that are harmful, just nuisance stuff that causes staining and whatnot. It's usually the opposite actually. People call me freaking out about minimal amounts of harmful things like arsenic or coliform, and I have to calm them down and convince them it's not as big of a deal as they're making it out to be.


My apologies. Here we call what you do "water conditioning" which is treating well water prior to point of use. 

The scammers I was talking about have a fake test kit and they represent that they're with the water utility with trucks, uniforms and laminated id's which closely resemble the water utility. They scam naive people out of big money by selling a $300 water filter for $8,000.00 or as much as they can get. They get chased all the time around here. One had the balls to knock on my door on a Saturday morning. Told him who I was and that he needed to stop doing that in the city. Hour later I'm driving to the store and there he is knocking on my neighbor's door. Had a city cop arrest him for soliciting without a permit. Last time I saw him or that company in our city.


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## LARMGUY (Aug 22, 2010)

Barrence said:


> It was for a shutting off the water going into an atmospheric storage tank. A float switch controls a normally closed solenoid valve which is powered by a 24v transformer. It IS something that is manually put together, but I didn't think that mattered with a situation like that. He saw me putting it together when he was there to do a final on the house. It was new construction. Unfortunately, I gave him way too much info. Wasn't thinking straight in the situation. I didn't answer his phone call, but he has all my business info, which he couldn've gotten off my truck anyways.


Hell farmers do that allatime.


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## Barrence (Mar 26, 2020)

MikeFL said:


> My apologies. Here we call what you do "water conditioning" which is treating well water prior to point of use.
> 
> The scammers I was talking about have a fake test kit and they represent that they're with the water utility with trucks, uniforms and laminated id's which closely resemble the water utility. They scam naive people out of big money by selling a $300 water filter for $8,000.00 or as much as they can get. They get chased all the time around here. One had the balls to knock on my door on a Saturday morning. Told him who I was and that he needed to stop doing that in the city. Hour later I'm driving to the store and there he is knocking on my neighbor's door. Had a city cop arrest him for soliciting without a permit. Last time I saw him or that company in our city.


Wow, I've never seen that, but I spend very little time in cities for any reason really haha. I totally agree with people like that getting what they deserve. Well water around here can be pretty terrible, and I won't deny that some point of entry systems can be a little on the pricey side, but I pay plenty for them myself (Don't make much on service work and I do this to make a living). It's definitely nowhere near such a crazy mark up as that though. That's straight up robbery. I've been doing this for ~20 years and learned it from my dad who did it for 40 years. I never lie to customers and I never try to sell them something I don't think they actually need. I can actually remember plenty of times where I tried to talk people OUT of un-needed treatment that they were insisting on.


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## Barrence (Mar 26, 2020)

LARMGUY said:


> Hell farmers do that allatime.


Yeah that was my thinking as well. At the very least they ought to give a pass once for somebody that understandably didn't realize it wasn't allowed. I even said to the inspector "Hey, if I'm not supposed to be doing this, I'll take it out right now and let the electrician do it". He wouldn't tell me a thing, just said "Oh, I'm not supposed to tell you anything like that". Then comes back from his car and puts a non compliance sticker on everything. Passive aggressive a-hole.


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## electricbysullivan (Aug 16, 2013)

https://ecology.wa.gov/Water-Shorelines/Water-supply/Wells

More likely it is somewhere answered and spawned off of this. I doubt a sparky light bulb inspector is with a dept of environmental ecology.

Do you have a state OPRA (open record Or freedom of information request form?) If so print one out.

Also inquire if the inspection agency has E/O insurance? Error and Omissions is the easiest to breech.


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## RSmike (Jul 31, 2008)

Doesn’t this fall into the early parts of article 110 where the AHJ is god....(little g)?

It was likely best to not ask about it. You let the genie out of the bottle by asking. 

Put it all in a box, get a UL508A shop to build it, and (nicely) tell the AHJ to pound sand.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

I used to do water meter telemetry installs where I mostly wired the transmitters but occasionally had to install the water meters too. One apartment job had multiple trades working after a fire and the inspector popped in and demanded everyone's license info. "Even you plumber." he says. I'm not a licensed plumber. I told him it was in the truck... I just drove away. I don't need that heat.:biggrin:


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## raffcapz (Feb 8, 2019)

MikeFL said:


> My apologies. Here we call what you do "water conditioning" which is treating well water prior to point of use.
> 
> The scammers I was talking about have a fake test kit and they represent that they're with the water utility with trucks, uniforms and laminated id's which closely resemble the water utility. They scam naive people out of big money by selling a $300 water filter for $8,000.00 or as much as they can get. They get chased all the time around here. One had the balls to knock on my door on a Saturday morning. Told him who I was and that he needed to stop doing that in the city. Hour later I'm driving to the store and there he is knocking on my neighbor's door. Had a city cop arrest him for soliciting without a permit. Last time I saw him or that company in our city.



At least they have the decency to knock on the door and talk to you. Around me they just leave the complimentary test bottle at your front door, ask you to fill it, collect it and then a week later they swarm the street and tell you how bad your water is, needs this, needs that. It was pretty funny when they showed up, came in and gave their whole spiel, and I showed them the results from my own test i had done a month prior. (my wife was complaining). I've never seen someone exit an awkward situation so quickly. I hate all door salesman with a passion. Thanks to my Ring doorbell, i hardly interact with them anymore :smile:


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## hornetd (Oct 30, 2014)

MikeFL said:


> My apologies. Here we call what you do "water conditioning" which is treating well water prior to point of use.
> 
> The scammers I was talking about have a fake test kit and they represent that they're with the water utility with trucks, uniforms and laminated id's which closely resemble the water utility. They scam naive people out of big money by selling a $300 water filter for $8,000.00 or as much as they can get. They get chased all the time around here. One had the balls to knock on my door on a Saturday morning. Told him who I was and that he needed to stop doing that in the city. Hour later I'm driving to the store and there he is knocking on my neighbor's door. Had a city cop arrest him for soliciting without a permit. Last time I saw him or that company in our city.


Every time that someone comes to my door without a soliciting permit clipped to their collar as the local law requires I "drop the dime." [Wow how outdated is that. I thought getting old would take longer.] The cops always swing by and ask me if I'm willing to testify against them because they didn't see them "in the act." I always say yes but I've never been called to do so. I guess they just pay the fine and move on to another county. One gal was in the middle of her spiel when she realized that my phone was sticking out of my shirt pocket with just the camera lens exposed. She left so fast that there was a vapor trail behind her. The Cop Shop still caught her though.

I will admit that I have done a few cold calls though. If there was a truly immediate hazard I would print out the page from my electronic NEC handbook, add the county warning sheet about the danger of hiring someone without a license to do electrical work and how to call them for advise on suspect work, and a list of residential service electrical service contractors complete with their license number and how to check if they had any record of customer complaints. Somehow of other I never got around to adding non union contractors to my list though. If there was children's stuff in view I would offer to render safe for free but I wouldn't fix it. I'd leave it as ugly as possible and still being child resistive.

Once I did call the Power Utility for an open meter enclosure laying on the sidewalk in front of a row house with no one home. It showed hot on my non contact voltage detector. I asked the utility's emergency call taker if they wanted me to blind the meter can off with a meter blank. The call taker got real excited and said don't touch it. I told her I would stand by for one half hour and then I would call the city alleging "Clear and Present Danger." A service truck arrived within 20 minutes and told me that they had been pulled off other work in the middle of it. I showed them the open meter can behind the car that had since parked there. Even they were surprised. They deenergized it, laid it in the postage stamp sized front yard with a meter blank on it, and left a note for the occupants. Good thing it wasn't winter.

--
Tom Horne


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## JohnTackett (Apr 30, 2021)

Give me a break - make em prove


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