# Ground Bar Installation



## Zparme (Nov 11, 2010)

I've been doing a few more services than usual so I'm encountering different scenarios quite frequently. I have a question about adding additional ground/neutral bars.

I know most panels come with pre-tapped holes to mount additional ground bars, but is it legal to drill and tap the ground bar wherever I want in the panel?


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Zparme said:


> is it legal to drill and tap the ground bar wherever I want in the panel?


It should be, but because most load centers are listed, and the grounding bars are listed as well, an inspector would be within their authority to cite 110.3(B).




> 110.3 Examination, Identification, Installation, and Use
> of Equipment.
> 
> (B) Installation and Use. Listed or labeled equipment
> ...



It is up to the inspector / AHJ to determine if what you have done is acceptable.

I would try to put them in the intended locations.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Try using Murray panels.. they give you ground/neutral bars on both sides.. never run out of room...


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

When the manufactures put the holes in for the ground bar screws they punch them in a manner that provides more threads in the enclosure than you would get by just drilling and tapping new holes. With some enclosures drilling and tapping would not meet the requirement found in 250.8(A)(5).


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Do you link the new ground/neutral bar to the main bar via a insulated conductor?


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## Zparme (Nov 11, 2010)

Shockdoc said:


> Do you link the new ground/neutral bar to the main bar via a insulated conductor?


That would seem fine to me. It's also acceptable to use a nut to secure the ground bar to the panel.

I just thought it would be nice to put one towards the top of the panel to terminate old neutrals that are either too short or have insulation damage.


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## CraigV (May 12, 2011)

Shockdoc said:


> Do you link the new ground/neutral bar to the main bar via a insulated conductor?


Wait, I'll go start making some popcorn....:laughing:


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

CraigV said:


> Wait, I'll go start making some popcorn....:laughing:


Personally I believe if neutral loads are applied to it, a properly sized conductor needs to link it with the main neutral/ground bar. I run a #6 wh when I do it. The metal can of the box is grounded, without a link neutral loads are relying on the bond screw connection.


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## CraigV (May 12, 2011)

Shockdoc said:


> Personally I believe if neutral loads are applied to it, a properly sized conductor needs to link it with the main neutral/ground bar. I run a #6 wh when I do it. The metal can of the box is grounded, without a link neutral loads are relying on the bond screw connection.


 Agreed. I recall the sh1tstorm that started last time this issue came up.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

CraigV said:


> Agreed. I recall the sh1tstorm that started last time this issue came up.


I think i started it last time over the left hand side bars that relyed on the bond screw:devil2:


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

Zparme said:


> I just thought it would be nice to put one towards the top of the panel to terminate old neutrals that are either too short or have insulation damage.



It'd probably be easier to just wirenut and extend the old neutrals than install a bar because "it would be nice".


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## Speedlimit190 (Apr 29, 2012)

Wire nuts in a panel? Not if I can avoid it.


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*main n*

my inspectors make up land all branch circuit neutrals on the same bar as main service neutral. I talked him into letting me use a supplementary ground bar as long as I run the correct sized bonding jumper from it to the main ground/neutral bar. I agree completely with this


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

B4T said:


> Try using Murray panels.. they give you ground/neutral bars on both sides.. never run out of room...


Why do you always promote Murray junk? Are you on their payroll or something? :001_huh:


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Peter D said:


> Why do you always promote Murray junk? Are you on their payroll or something? :001_huh:


I went nose to nose with another EC who commented something about me when I asked the supply house for a QO panel and all the carried was Murray. I called it junk, and some clown asked if I was an electrician cause Murray is the best stuff around. At that point I realized I was dealing with Stupid.:laughing:


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## denny3992 (Jul 12, 2010)

u cant even find a murray in PA... just ite,sq d, ge, ch


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

denny3992 said:


> u cant even find a murray in PA... just ite,sq d, ge, ch


You have Siemans in Pa, the better version of Murray.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Shockdoc said:


> I went nose to nose with another EC who commented something about me when I asked the supply house for a QO panel and all the carried was Murray. I called it junk, and some clown asked if I was an electrician cause Murray is the best stuff around. At that point I realized I was dealing with Stupid.:laughing:


I couldn't agree more, putting in a QO when a Murray is avalible is stupid.


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

If you can install a ground bar in a gutter, you can install a ground bar in a panel.

IMO


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

Speedlimit190 said:


> Wire nuts in a panel? Not if I can avoid it.


Why?


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Shockdoc said:


> I went nose to nose with another EC who commented something about me when I asked the supply house for a QO panel and all the carried was Murray. I called it junk, and some clown asked if I was an electrician cause Murray is the best stuff around. At that point I realized I was dealing with Stupid.:laughing:


Sheep


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Speedlimit190 said:


> Wire nuts in a panel? Not if I can avoid it.


Well thats just ********.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Dnkldorf said:


> If you can install a ground bar in a gutter, you can install a ground bar in a panel.
> 
> IMO


 



actually, that's common practice in up my way......~CS~


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Dnkldorf said:


> If you can install a ground bar in a gutter, you can install a ground bar in a panel.
> 
> IMO


The difference is the panel will come with instructions indicating a specific ground bar in a specific spot.

Its just listing BS, but there are always some inspectors that will enforce it.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Peter D said:


> Why do you always promote Murray junk? Are you on their payroll or something? :001_huh:


Because they are very easy to work with is reason #1..

ALL you Murray haters have the same problem.. show me something in writing that says Murray is an better or worse than any other manufacture out there..

It is your personal opinion without any hard facts to back up the rant.. :no::no:


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

BBQ said:


> The difference is the panel will come with instructions indicating a specific ground bar in a specific spot.
> 
> Its just listing BS, but there are always some inspectors that will enforce it.


and the listing BS bone is connected to the warranty BS bone

so back to fundamentals, the whole concept of Gbar attachment is AIC during a fault

bolt the bloody thing in with nolox & aircraft nuts if you like, & call it a day...

~CS~


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

B4T said:


> Because they are very easy to work with is reason #1..
> 
> ALL you Murray haters have the same problem.. show me something in writing that says Murray is an better or worse than any other manufacture out there..
> 
> It is your personal opinion without any hard facts to back up the rant.. :no::no:



I don't hate Murray, I just don't understand your obsession with a low end product, especially when there are better choices out there. Siemens is identical but better since it comes with the neutral bar screws backed out, and a copper bus. 

And your argument is totally weird - I don't need something in writing when I have first hand experience with multiple products and brands to know which ones have better features.  So yes, it's my personal experience that Murray is not as user friendly as the other brands out there.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Peter D said:


> I don't hate Murray, I just don't understand your obsession with a low end product, especially when there are better choices out there. Siemens is identical but better since it comes with the neutral bar screws backed out, and a copper bus.
> 
> And your argument is totally weird - I don't need something in writing when I have first hand experience with multiple products and brands to know which ones have better features.  So yes, it's my personal experience that Murray is not as user friendly as the other brands out there.


So you feel spending more money means you are getting a better product.. that makes a lot of sense.. :no:

Your first hand experience is better than some scientific study based on hard facts.. you are a really strange guy.. :no:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

B4T said:


> So you feel spending more money means you are getting a better product.. that makes a lot of sense.. :no:
> 
> Your first hand experience is better than some scientific study based on hard facts.. you are a really strange guy.. :no:



Wow, arguing with you is like arguing with a brick wall. Who is going to do a scientific study about which residential load center is better? :laughing: Common sense tells me that copper bus bars are better than your favorite junky Murray aluminum ones any day of the week. And who said I was spending more money? A typical 200 amp, 40 circuit MB load center from every major brand costs about the same.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> show me something in writing that says Murray is an better or worse than any other manufacture out there..
> 
> It is your personal opinion without any hard facts to back up the rant.. :no::no:


B4T, remember this post becuse I will bring it up every time you give your opinion.:thumbsup:


BTW, Murry is junk.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

BBQ said:


> B4T, remember this post becuse I will bring it up every time you give your opinion.:thumbsup:


I will remember it as well. :thumbsup:


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

sbrn33 said:


> Sheep


Sheeple


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> When the manufactures put the holes in for the ground bar screws they punch them in a manner that provides more threads in the enclosure than you would get by just drilling and tapping new holes. With some enclosures drilling and tapping would not meet the requirement found in 250.8(A)(5).


I would remove the paint (inside and out) use a no-ox compound to prevent rust, drill and tap and nut the bolts. About 10 times better that anything the manufacture can or would do. AHJ could still say no, but it would be out of ignorance more than anything.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BBQ said:


> B4T, remember this post because I will bring it up every time you give your opinion.:thumbsup:
> 
> 
> BTW, Murry is junk.


Nice try.. even you with your loads of bullchit can't provide any proof one manufacture of residential panels is any better than another..

You keep thinking your personal opinion rules the planet.. sorry but it is not working out for you.. :notworthy::notworthy::notworthy::notworthy:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> Nice try.. even you with your loads of bullchit can't provide any proof one manufacture of residential panels is any better than another..
> 
> You keep thinking your personal opinion rules the planet.. sorry but it is not working out for you.. :notworthy::notworthy::notworthy::notworthy:


I know my opinion does not rule, why the hell do you think yours does? :laughing:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

I normally drive a Ford, The Chevy guys would always give me a hard time, now I drive a Dodge and the Ford and Chevy folks give me a hard time. I always own a Chevy Truck and they all seem to pilot my ass down the highway.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BBQ said:


> I know my opinion does not rule, why the hell do you think yours does? :laughing:


I never said it did..:blink::blink:.. I'm throwing out my ideas just as everyone else..

But when guys here say a product I use and like is junk.. I want to see proof..

Many posts have been about FPE breakers and how they are junk.. but there are plenty of pics and articles to back up the rant..


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

B4T said:


> You keep thinking your personal opinion rules the planet.. sorry but it is not working out for you.. :notworthy::notworthy::notworthy::notworthy:


Yeah, personal opinions like:

a)Not using a tool belt is hack.

b) Cutting a switch plate to acommodate a timer was the only way to do it. 

c) Fox news doesn't have an agenda. 

d) Burying PVC boxes is not a code violation


etc etc


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

Peter D said:


> Yeah, personal opinions like:
> 
> a)Not using a tool belt is hack.
> 
> ...


The Peter D agenda.:notworthy::notworthy:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Chris1971 said:


> The Peter D agenda.:notworthy::notworthy:


Is it your time of the month again?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Anything more of a positive nature to add to the OP's question?:no:


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

B4T said:


> I never said it did..:blink::blink:.. I'm throwing out my ideas just as everyone else..
> 
> But when guys here say a product I use and like is junk.. I want to see proof..
> 
> Many posts have been about FPE breakers and how they are junk.. but there are plenty of pics and articles to back up the rant..


Old style plug in main breakers- Junk/ Newer style bolt on mains- Low grade.


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