# Main breaker issues



## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

He is overloaded. His lighting should all be at least CFL's by now, but also he's running AC and a range. that is a large enough load that will cause sparks exercising the main under load.


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## DMILL (Oct 26, 2010)

Black Dog said:


> He is overloaded. His lighting should all be at least CFL's by now, but also he's running AC and a range. that is a large enough load that will cause sparks exercising the main under load.


That was my thought, but I figured I'd run it by you guys and refer him to a licensed guy, I don't want any liability:thumbsup:

On another note, i should be licensed in my city next year!


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

DMILL said:


> That was my thought, but I figured I'd run it by you guys and refer him to a licensed guy, I don't want any liability:thumbsup:
> 
> On another note, i should be licensed in my city next year!


Good Luck on the exam:thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Black Dog said:


> He is overloaded. His lighting should all be at least CFL's by now, but also he's running AC and a range. that is a large enough load that will cause sparks exercising the main under load.



Huh? 

On what planet would one expect ANY breaker to be dispelling sparks under a heavy load?


Sounds like a loose connection to me.


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

480sparky said:


> Huh?
> 
> On what planet would one expect ANY breaker to be dispelling sparks under a heavy load?
> 
> ...


Pluto.....:whistling2::laughing:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Black Dog said:


> Pluto.....:whistling2::laughing:



Well, Pluto ain't a planet any more.


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

480sparky said:


> Well, Pluto ain't a planet any more.


Dam, That's a bummer....:laughing:


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## ampman (Apr 2, 2009)

Bad breaker to buss connection


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

480sparky said:


> Well, Pluto ain't a planet any more.


Did Pluto have any say in the matter?


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Pretty good chance the guy is buying a panel change.


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## wcord (Jan 23, 2011)

100 amp main will handle a typical 1200 sg ft house easily. 
Don't know about the NEC, but under CEC ( at least up till 2012 edition, we could load 10kw of electric heat on a 100 amp service.
Of course, that wouldn't be near enough heat for a house on Pluto


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

480sparky said:


> Huh?
> 
> On what planet would one expect ANY breaker to be dispelling sparks under a heavy load?
> 
> ...


How dare you! Black Dog is electrical pro of the quarter! Go to the back of the room and sit facing the corner. ... ... .. :no:


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Biggest mistake i find guys doing is replacing a heated main breaker on aluminum heated stabs.

Sent from my SM-G360P using Tapatalk


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## rrolleston (Mar 6, 2012)

Shockdoc said:


> Biggest mistake i find guys doing is replacing a heated main breaker on aluminum heated stabs. Sent from my SM-G360P using Tapatalk


We get those calls all the time. Some handyman or contractor put a new breaker on a heated or burnt up buss and it acted up a few days later. In A 100 amp panel Sometimes we can move stuff around and put a main somewhere else to get them going and come back for the panel change. Sometimes we just grab a panel from the shop and go to replace it.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Pluto has been re-rated as a DWARF PLANET.

The New Horizons probe is less than a month off from an interception.

It's built to go even further out -- as JPL/ NASA figure that even more dwarf planets lie so far out that we can't spot them -- even with Hubble. (It's pretty busy, anyway.)

There are lots of strange things about Pluto -- and the topper is that it and its moon Charon spin around a common axis -- that's OUTSIDE either of the two bodies. That's some big time wobble.

They are also tidally locked.

http://pluto.jhuapl.edu/

The New Horizons probe is now close enough to start bringing in color snaps. ^^^^


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

Black Dog said:


> He is overloaded. His lighting should all be at least CFL's by now, but also he's running AC and a range. that is a large enough load that will cause sparks exercising the main under load.


What a bunch of balogna. A range with all the burners on and the oven going is what, 32 amps maybe? The FLC of the AC is what, 22A maybe? That sounds like a sleazy way to pitch a service upgrade more than just fixing the actual problem. Sheesh.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

DMILL said:


> That was my thought, but I figured I'd run it by you guys and refer him to a licensed guy, I don't want any liability:thumbsup:
> 
> On another note, i should be licensed in my city next year!


You should have done the work anyway. A license is nothing more than a permission slip from the government to earn a living. If you're capable of doing the work, you should do it. :thumbsup:


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

1. First perform a FOP test across the main CB at full load
2. Measue current at full load, force the loads.
3. This should be number one, do a complete visual inspection.
4. Determine which one of the above is the issue and act accordingly.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Black Dog said:


> He is overloaded. His lighting should all be at least CFL's by now, but also he's running AC and a range. that is a large enough load that will cause sparks exercising the main under load.


I disagree. If the main doesn't trip but throws sparks there is definitely a problem. The contacts are closed they should throw no sparks.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Bad Electrician said:


> 1. First perform a FOP test across the main CB at full load
> 2. Measue current at full load, force the loads.
> 3. This should be number one, do a complete visual inspection.
> 4. Determine which one of the above is the issue and act accordingly.


I understand that you know your sh!t. Problem is that by the time you do your FOP testing I would have the breaker replaced or have sold them a new 200 ampere service.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

nuke it from orbit


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

sbrn33 said:


> I understand that you know your sh!t. Problem is that by the time you do your FOP testing I would have the breaker replaced or have sold them a new 200 ampere service.


30 seconds????????


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Bad Electrician said:


> 30 seconds????????


It takes more than that. You and Zog might be the only ones that would even have that kind of equipment on a truck or even at their shop.

I am not knocking you, I am just saying how normal electrical companies would do it.


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

sbrn33 said:


> It takes more than that. You and Zog might be the only ones that would even have that kind of equipment on a truck or even at their shop.
> 
> I am not knocking you, I am just saying how normal electrical companies would do it.


No, no, no FOP= Fall of Ptential, I wrote something on this simpla basic test for testing on ET sometime ago, This test is for checking the internal resistance of circuit breakers utilizing a Digital Multi Meter,


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

sbrn33 said:


> It takes more than that. You and Zog might be the only ones that would even have that kind of equipment on a truck or even at their shop.
> 
> I am not knocking you, I am just saying how normal electrical companies would do it.


I just went back and re-read Brian's thing on the FOP test, and all you need is a DMM and a load on the breaker.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

Here:
http://www.electriciantalk.com/f2/voltage-drop-fall-potential-602/


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## ND80 (Apr 12, 2012)

480sparky said:


> Well, Pluto ain't a planet any more.


Pluto was big enough for your mom........


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## jabantik (Jan 13, 2015)

ND80 said:


> Pluto was big enough for your mom........


 Oh, it's on!


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## oliquir (Jan 13, 2011)

His main breaker overheated, it was not overloaded at all, this is just a simple case of bad contact between main bus and breaker (or bad breaker itself)
You should not have tell him to turn it back on, it could have start a fire


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

oliquir said:


> His main breaker overheated, it was not overloaded at all, this is just a simple case of bad contact between main bus and breaker (or bad breaker itself)
> You should not have tell him to turn it back on, it could have start a fire


You tested this CB?


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## oliquir (Jan 13, 2011)

Bad Electrician said:


> You tested this CB?


no but the description he said is exactly that


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

If there is any play in the MAIN while one wiggles it, causing sparks-- it stands condemned. This is performed while wearing PPE and paranoid.

FPE products have enough play for the Fourth of July celebrations... every time I've ever peaked at one.:no:

I won't slow down for a FoP test when a MAIN is a sparker.

For the money and risk involved, both breaker and busing must go without further ado.

Lest we forget, THE STINK. These puppies normally stink -- bad -- when they've been letting the arcs out. 

That might be achieved by dropping in 'fresh guts' from a new panel -- if the dimensions work out (rare) -- or dropping in a new panel, entirely.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Yeah, the sniff test condemns a lot of stuff in my experience. Don't need to test a motor, breaker, or transformer that already smells like burnt sh!t on a stick. :laughing:


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## gnuuser (Jan 13, 2013)

MDShunk said:


> Yeah, the sniff test condemns a lot of stuff in my experience. Don't need to test a motor, breaker, or transformer that already smells like burnt sh!t on a stick. :laughing:


good one 
that made my day!


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

oliquir said:


> no but the description he said is exactly that


I never assume until I know, I have gone in the wrong direction thinking I knew what I did not.


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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

Bad Electrician said:


> I never assume until I know, I have gone in the wrong direction thinking I knew what I did not.


You're definitely not alone. 

It's hard sometimes to tune the customers out when they are right there in your face telling you to look over here, that's where the problem is, when you actually need to be telling them to give you a minute, let's start over there first and then work to where they're pointing.

I went on a few snipe hunts listening to customers when I first turned out, now I know a little better.:whistling2: I still chuckle when I hear stories from the new journeymen that make that same mistake...assumptions...


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## JohnJ65 (May 8, 2008)

Kind of reminds me of this one I found this spring. Stab in main welded itself to the buss. Lots of intermittent issues.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Black Dog said:


> He is overloaded. His lighting should all be at least CFL's by now, but also he's running AC and a range. that is a large enough load that will cause sparks exercising the main under load.




Uhhh, dude, he is legit. And not very nice to a guy just getting his license.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

DMILL said:


> So, my neighbor called yesterday and said his main breaker tripped and that he was without power. He asked ifI could check it out... Sure.
> 
> When I got there, the 100A main is tripped, no other breakers are tripped, he has a typical setup with a
> 
> ...


Overloads don't cause sparks. It would take about two hours for an overload to trip a breaker.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

sbrn33 said:


> I understand that you know your sh!t. Problem is that by the time you do your FOP testing I would have the breaker replaced or have sold them a new 200 ampere service.


Fraternal Order of Police test? Why? Is law enforcement involved in the premature failure of main breakers? 

Sent from my SM-G360P using Tapatalk


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

Shockdoc said:


> Fraternal Order of Police test? Why? Is law enforcement involved in the premature failure of main breakers?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G360P using Tapatalk


Google seems to think it's a "Fibrodysplasia Ossificans Progressiva" test.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

I thought a fop was some dandy.


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

RIVETER said:


> Overloads don't cause sparks. It would take about two hours for an overload to trip a breaker.


wouldnt it depend on how much overload?:blink:


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

papaotis said:


> wouldnt it depend on how much overload?:blink:


Nah. The exponential rate of "climb" in a SHORT circuit is a lot different than a continuously overloaded circuit.:thumbsup:


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## mikeblas (May 7, 2008)

RIVETER said:


> Nah. The exponential rate of "climb" in a SHORT circuit is a lot different than a continuously overloaded circuit.:thumbsup:


What do you mean by "exponential rate of climb"?

The manufacturers publish trip curve information which relates opening time to load. For the breakers in that link, two hours (7200 seconds) is a very small overload: 1.1 to 1.25 times the trip rating. A higher load (over the rating) will trip much faster.

What am I missing?


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