# Hanging cabinets with 3 1/2" deck screws.... No good



## Nobaddaysinak (Jan 17, 2012)

How do you normally go about getting paid for someone else's screw up I'm meeting with the gc tomorrow and have him take down all the cabinets so I can find which magic screws ruined my wiring. I see this being a full day since they managed to hit both small appliance circuits, one in the homerun to the box. 
What is the quickest way to find the bad spot? Take everything apart and ring each section out?

Can't believe these journeyman twenty plus years experience guys could make a mistake. Especially given the fact I told the guy to not use those screws on another part of the house that got 3/4" plywood instead of Sheetrock!


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Hook up a meter, and remove the screws one at a time. When a short disappears, the screw you just took out was the issue.


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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

There's some trick I heard about on here or MH where you take a rubber molded lamp socket with wire pigtails on it and install it in series with the hot wire. Breaker to one pigtail. Shorted hot wire to other pigtail. Install a bulb and turn the breaker on. The bulb will be lit as long as the short is present. As soon as you remove the short(one of the deck screws) the bulb goes out.

I bought all the parts to do this but haven't needed to use them yet.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Next time use these wherever they are going to hang cabinets. If a cabinet guy goes through one of my wires I consider it my fault. They always use long screws to hang cabinets.

Protection plates in kitchens is code in Canada.


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## 3xdad (Jan 25, 2011)

Remember, there are no bad days in ak.

Is it a fact that a screw is a problem? If so, charge your normal service call and troubleshoot rates. The GC called you out for a problem right?

Now in the rare case :laughing: the GC wants you to come out and take care of this for free because he expects you to comiserate with him, that's when things get a little difficult.


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## daveEM (Nov 18, 2012)

Why would you run wire behind the kitchen cabinets?

If you must I suppose you could use 99's idea. Next time run up/over/down type of thing or like me you can run wire in the Giant Space between the upper and lower cabinets. No long screws going there. Maybe glued on tile or something.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

daveEM said:


> Why would you run wire behind the kitchen cabinets? If you must I suppose you could use 99's idea. Next time run up/over/down type of thing or like me you can run wire in the Giant Space between the upper and lower cabinets. No long screws going there. Maybe glued on tile or something.


Ever hear of under cabinet lights or hood fans?


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

daveEM said:


> Why would you run wire behind the kitchen cabinets?


Why can't the cabinet guys buy the correct length screws? A good tradesman understand there is stuff in the wall and a 3-1/2" screw almost goes to the other side of the wall. A bit excessive, don't you think so?


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

backstay said:


> Ever hear of under cabinet lights or hood fans?


Yep, install them all the time. They're under the cabinet, right? How does a cabinet installer drive a screw through a cable where there is no cabinet?

The last thing I do during a kitchen rough-in is install protection plates on all studs and upper and lower plates where there is cable pulled through. I can easily go through twenty protection plates in a kitchen.

Sorry, I'm siding with the cabinet guy on this one. He doesn't have x-ray vision. He can't see through walls. It's up to the electrician to ensure his wiring is protected.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

hardworkingstiff said:


> Why can't the cabinet guys buy the correct length screws? A good tradesman understand there is stuff in the wall and a 3-1/2" screw almost goes to the other side of the wall. A bit excessive, don't you think so?


3 1/2" - yes. 3" - standard practice.

Considering the cabinet material is 5/8" and the drywall 1/2", a 3 1/2" screw won't go clear to the other side.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

99cents said:


> 3 1/2" - yes. 3" - standard practice.


I can't argue with you because I don't hang cabinets nor do residential electrical. It seems to me a competent cabinet hanger would know there could be wires going through the wall and that he needs to penetrate the stud no more than 1-1/2", add the 1/2" sheet rock and a 1/2" to 3/4" support in the cabinet and I would think a 2-1/2" screw would be the longest they would use. A tradesman anyway.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Do you know how much kitchen cabinets are worth? If it's my house, I'm telling those guys to make sure those cabinets are hung solid.

Wood holds wood screws very well. Electrical cable, not so much.


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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

hardworkingstiff said:


> It seems to me a competent cabinet hanger would know there could be wires going through the wall and that he needs to penetrate the stud no more than 1-1/2", I would think a 2-1/2" screw would be the longest they would use. A tradesman anyway.


Using your example, with a screw penetrating the stud an 1.5" when code only requires bored holes an 1.25" from the face still puts cables in the danger zone without nail plates.

I also don't do new residential, but it seems to me a guy just needs to pay attention when running cables behind cabinets regardless. Use nailplates, don't run cables behind cabinets if possible, just do something other than assuming the cabinet guy will not use long screws. He shouldn't have to worry about hitting a wire hanging a cabinet. Like 99cents, if they were my expensive cabinets, I'd never complain about the installer using 3.5" deck screws, I'd know they were never coming down!


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

Cow said:


> Using your example, with a screw penetrating the stud an 1.5" when code only requires bored holes an 1.25" from the face still puts cables in the danger zone without nail plates.


My bad, I didn't remember correctly (1.25" vs 1.5"). A screw that penetrates a stud 1" (IMO) will hold just as long as one that penetrates 2".

I agree with your point that some nail plates are an easy protection, but I still maintain a true cabinet tradesman would use a screw that would not hit a properly installed cable. A hack of course would use any screw they could get there hands on.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

3, 3 1/2, 4" screws perfectly normal around here. I agree with others, I don't want to see mama's cabinets full of dishes falling off the wall.


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## guy2073 (May 4, 2011)

Cabinet screws are 3". I run wires between cabinets. When you have grandmom's china collection in a cabinet, you will want the 3" screw.


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## kawimudslinger (Jan 29, 2010)

99cents said:


> Next time use these wherever they are going to hang cabinets. If a cabinet guy goes through one of my wires I consider it my fault. They always use long screws to hang cabinets.
> 
> Protection plates in kitchens is code in Canada.


i didn't know that...which code???


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## AllWIRES (Apr 10, 2014)

Definitely the electricians responsibility to protect his wiring. Same problem with roofing and siding fasteners, especially commercially. 

Live and learn. Keep the wires in the kitchen in the space between the wall and base cabinets as much as possible.

Hopefully you can convince the GC to pay for a service call but I think this might fall on your dime.


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## wcord (Jan 23, 2011)

99cents said:


> Next time use these wherever they are going to hang cabinets. If a cabinet guy goes through one of my wires I consider it my fault. They always use long screws to hang cabinets.
> 
> Protection plates in kitchens is code in Canada.


Must be an Alberta thing.
If there are so many wires that there isn't enough room between the counter top and the uppers, then run 6 inches below the top. No screws in that area either.
I have never used nail plates in a kitchen to protect against the cabinet screws.
I'm more worried about the siding 'tards who use 4 inch nails for some of their stuff outside.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

kawimudslinger said:


> i didn't know that...which code???


I dunno. An inspector told me that so I have always done it. Maybe there's no specific rule, just a general "protection" rule? It's good advice anyway.


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## Sparky J (May 17, 2011)

Can't speak about your area but here kickplates are cheap insurance. Here in one locality they make the plumbers and hvac guys use the large 3x5" plates on all top and bottom plates just for trim, at first I thought stupid but now it makes sense. Especially how I saw one company install wainscoting in a powder room. They hit plumbing, electrical, ductwork and gas lines but no studs with 3" trim nails.


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## daks (Jan 16, 2013)

99cents said:


> I dunno. An inspector told me that so I have always done it. Maybe there's no specific rule, just a general "protection" rule? It's good advice anyway.


 I can't find a code rule for it in the CEC, but it is one of those things where I agree that it is a common enough problem that it should be a code rule. I always protecto-plates the kitchen. 

Not too much you can do for siding/sheathing 'tards that use the 4" screws.


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

Ok if you remember how the circuit was laid out this is easy you have to start backing screws out one at a time turning the breaker back on to see if the circuit holds if you're lucky you'll be able to identify which screw has broke the circuit. I have done this probably a dozen times over 30 years it's painstaking but usually works


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

If I need to start using nail plates to make up for a cabinet or trim carpenter's f up when my wires are run to code, then I am going to need to jack up my prices.

I get a situation like this I abandon the wire, refish and charge accordingly. Let the GC figure out who absorbs the cost, becasue it wont be me.


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## NacBooster29 (Oct 25, 2010)

aftershockews said:


> If I need to start using nail plates to make up for a cabinet or trim carpenter's f up when my wires are run to code, then I am going to need to jack up my prices.
> 
> I get a situation like this I abandon the wire, refish and charge accordingly. Let the GC figure out who absorbs the cost, becasue it wont be me.


They cost .18 each! It's wicked cheap insurance. If you can't find an additional 5 bux in your bid to cover them. You're too low to begin with


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## ElectricJoeNJ (Feb 24, 2011)

I don't feel like reading through the whole thread so this has probably been mentioned. Simplest fix for this is to not run wires across where the cabinets will be hung from its really not that difficult to avoid those areas.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

aftershockews said:


> If I need to start using nail plates to make up for a cabinet or trim carpenter's f up when my wires are run to code, then I am going to need to jack up my prices.
> 
> I get a situation like this I abandon the wire, refish and charge accordingly. Let the GC figure out who absorbs the cost, becasue it wont be me.


We'll see how tough you are when the GC short pays your invoice.


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## Rochsolid (Aug 9, 2012)

I just had a cabinet guy fire a screw through the backside of a panel in an apartment the other day. Must have been sticking into the panel about an inch or more. 4 inches to his right and he would have been right into the bus 

Sent from my SGH-I337M using electriciantalk.com mobile app


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## daveEM (Nov 18, 2012)

99cents said:


> I dunno. An inspector told me that so I have always done it. Maybe there's no specific rule, just a general "protection" rule? It's good advice anyway.


I don't use them. Always run between the upper and lower cabs. Did have a place once where one was needed and the inspector pointed it out tho.

He said "I don't really care but you will be the one fixing it". Just like the OP is going to absorb the cost on this I think.

Never do the upper or lower plates. Most cabs don't go to the ceiling and the lowers always sit on some sort of base so the lowest screw is going to 6 inches up or so.

I do take a chance on the cab guy hitting the studs and have been lucky with that. I have lots of wiring going up and down and if the siding isn't on yet the room on the stud can get tight.


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## surenoproblem (Dec 24, 2012)

I have had luck with the no touch tester on screws. I have also rung them out with the tester. Found one with the borescope a couple weeks ago. I love that thing.


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## Nobaddaysinak (Jan 17, 2012)

So. Turns out the cabinetry was hung by a finish sub I knew. Took him 15 mins to take one lower and one upper cabinets down. Was Able fix the compromised wires in a couple hours, I did it for free. I worked with that same cabinet guy on 16 pled and didn't have any issues. He said he will switch from 3. 1/2 to 2 1/2 next time. 
Plus side is I'm brand new just gettin going. He didn't know I was in business ( two weeks, local adds just started Monday) said hey I got something across town I need an electrician for so yesterday I picked up a little work and will get this guys future work mostly kitchen bath remodels which is normally easy and if the people are paying him 25k I can charge whatever and they don't seem to care


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

So are you going to take some of that new found wealth and buy some protection plates  ?

Sounds like a really solid start for a new guy. Congrats  .


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

99cents said:


> Protection plates in kitchens is code in Canada.


No it's not. The only code that has to be considered is the one that tells us how far away a wire needs to be from a finished wall.(inch and a quarter) CEC 12-516
Using those plates behind cabinets is a good idea, but it's not code.


Also in Canada you must be licensed to wire a house, but you don't have to be licensed to call yourself a carpenter and build one :thumbup:


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

eddy current said:


> No it's not. The only code that has to be considered is the one that tells us how far away a wire needs to be from a finished wall.(inch and a quarter) CEC 12-516
> Using those plates behind cabinets is a good idea, but it's not code.


I know that now. An inspector told me to do it and I thought it was code. My mistake.


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## Rochsolid (Aug 9, 2012)

doesn't matter if.ypu use protection plates. especially if they miss the stud all together.

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## Rochsolid (Aug 9, 2012)

Rochsolid said:


> doesn't matter if.ypu use protection plates. especially if they miss the stud all together.
> 
> Sent from my SGH-I337M using electriciantalk.com mobile app




Sent from my SGH-I337M using electriciantalk.com mobile app


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## Rochsolid (Aug 9, 2012)

Rochsolid said:


> doesn't matter if.ypu use protection plates. especially if they miss the stud all together.
> 
> Sent from my SGH-I337M using electriciantalk.com mobile app




Sent from my SGH-I337M using electriciantalk.com mobile app


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Nobaddaysinak said:


> How do you normally go about getting paid for someone else's screw up I'm meeting with the gc tomorrow and have him take down all the cabinets so I can find which magic screws ruined my wiring. I see this being a full day since they managed to hit both small appliance circuits, one in the homerun to the box.
> What is the quickest way to find the bad spot? Take everything apart and ring each section out?
> 
> Can't believe these journeyman twenty plus years experience guys could make a mistake. Especially given the fact I told the guy to not use those screws on another part of the house that got 3/4" plywood instead of Sheetrock!


Disconnect ground, neutral,energize ckt. Flash volt tick to every screw.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Rochsolid said:


> doesn't matter if.ypu use protection plates. especially if they miss the stud all together.
> 
> Sent from my SGH-I337M using electriciantalk.com mobile app


It matters because fixing that screw up is billable.


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## ElectricJoeNJ (Feb 24, 2011)

Rochsolid said:


> Sent from my SGH-I337M using electriciantalk.com mobile app


IMO that's poor installation. I would never put wires that close to studs that are on the flat. That's what CJ6's are for


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

I have had more issues with trim carpenters installing crown mold hitting wires up at the top plate. Guess I need to install nail plates anywhere I run wires through framing members?


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## Rochsolid (Aug 9, 2012)

ElectricJoeNJ said:


> IMO that's poor installation. I would never put wires that close to studs that are on the flat. That's what CJ6's are for


it's a reno job. We only had so much room to work with.

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## farmantenna (Nov 22, 2012)

I've seen the cab installers miss the stud with 3-4" screws and go into the wiring that's running down the middle of the stud. You CAN't nail plate that but I guess you could use wire stackers to keep wire away from stud and lose.

I've also seen them hit wires going horizontally through the studs at a height right where the base cabs would be. So you have to nail plate all those locations even if your holes are 1 1/4" back.


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## farmantenna (Nov 22, 2012)

so many trades abuse our wiring after we leave the job and really ####. the insulation installers rip out wires carefully measured and strategically placed and secured so the wires get buried by sheetrockers. plumbers and hvac guys cut or scew into them and don't tell you. 

I once had a ground fault in a fire alarm mc run and traced it to a point where I could see it in the attic. someone yanked the wire from its straight parallel route and put it under the sheetrock and put two screws into it (we here in Mass have strapping or furring perpendicular to ceiling joists so there's a 3/4" btwn sheetrock and joists.


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## yamatitan (Sep 4, 2010)

Im trimming out a house now that the cabinet guy was having problems getting the screw started. After completely flattening the tips on two he successfully got the third straight through a nail guard into the water line.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

I fixed a tripping circuit to a break room kitchen counter the other day, one that had recently been hackily remodeled. We ended up having to take down cabinets and taking out drywall, someone had drilled through every nail plate covering the run of MC going the length of the kitchen wall and then ran a 4" construction screw through each hole :thumbup:


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Stop running romex and from now on you should run threaded gavanized rigid steel or better yet stainless steel conduit. It is not the poor drywaller's fault. He only gets two bucks a sheet.


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## pete87 (Oct 22, 2012)

Rule of thumb for me is to use 12" above counter tops for wire runs and use 
stud hollows for getting there . Keep cables loose .








Pete


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## Zeno (Apr 13, 2014)

The companies I've worked for all require nail plates everywhere in kitchens and bathrooms--no exceptions.

And as far as screws holding-up a heavy cabinets, from what I understand (and actually seen once) it's the _sheer_ strength of the screw that matters, not how deep it penetrates the stud. The screws will literally seem to have been sliced-off flush with the wall if they fail and the cabinet comes off the wall. They don't pull out of the wood (like using a hammer to pull out a nail). So I would think a good 1 1/4" to 1 1/2" penetration would be fine (which is a 2 1/2" to 3" screw at most).


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## Fredman (Dec 2, 2008)

Oh sure blame the electrician. Those poor drywallers. Why are we placing our wires where they might get them. How inconsiderate can we be. Code shmode... Let them use the nail shooter gun with the super-longs in it. 

Certain parts of this trade I HATE! 

Like dealing with the frickin knuckle dragging idiots all day.


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## AK_sparky (Aug 13, 2013)

99cents said:


> Next time use these wherever they are going to hang cabinets. If a cabinet guy goes through one of my wires I consider it my fault. They always use long screws to hang cabinets.
> 
> Protection plates in kitchens is code in Canada.


hmmm...didn't know that. Know the CEC ref off hand?

Edit:
Sorry, didn't realize there was 2 more pages of responses...guess it's kinda been covered!


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## bakerbrynn (Oct 13, 2010)

you could disconnect AND isolate the ground and neutral so that the screw that is in the wire becomes energized(breaker shouldnt trip this way) and then just use your volt stick to find it. Just make sure you isolate those wires because if they are all shorted together by the screw they will be energized!

Not saying this is the safest approach but probably the fastest!


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## Spark Master (Jul 3, 2012)

How do you get away without nail plates ??? Even some home owners insist upon it..


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