# Huge spark and breaker didn't trip



## Chevys10zr2

Hey guys so I was changing out a bad dimmer switch for this lady and I was doing it with power still on. I accidentally touched the hot wire to the metal box and there was a huge explosion. I thought for sure the breaker tripped but no it still had power.

This house is not that old maybe built in the 70s or 80s and I think it wasn't wired professionally. It is wired in an older Romex and metal boxes. I also changed out a melted outlet and an outlet that was sparking due to the wires touching the metal box and that one when I took the outlet out half the wires fell out of the stab in locks due to the wire being like an eighth inch long in the stab in.

The lady also pointed out that a switch was getting hot around the box when I opened that one up I noticed the Romex had corroded where it was in contact with the metal clamps in the box and was sparking and not tripping the breaker until I pulled on it then a huge explosion and that one did trip the breaker.

It's a rental property and I told the property manager it's not professionally wired and needs to be fixed. I guess my questions are. 
A. Why wouldn't the breaker trip when I changed out the dimmer and touched the hot to the ground and made a huge explosion?
B. I'm not big into remodels but how would you address this change out all outlets and switches and make sure all is grounded? Check ground at panel? Or
C. Tell the property manager they need to rewire the entire house? I know she won't do this because it's a rental and would have to put the place under construction but I think it's needed there are also plumbing leaks everywhere in the house and there is no heat vents going to the second floor and there is mold everywhere in the basment. Or
D. Walk away from this **** hole? I would feel bad doing this cuz there are a lot of kids in that house and I have a conscious.


----------



## 99cents

It's common for a 40 year old breaker to hold after a boom. The action gets stiff after a period of years. If it has tripped before, its operating characteristics may have changed.

A rewire isn't necessary. What you may want to do is re-device it and inspect the wiring at each box, cutting it back to fresh copper and possibly pigtailing.

It's a rental, though. Landlords don't like spending money. Anything you recommend that costs money will be thrown out the door along with you and your toolbag.


----------



## Chevys10zr2

That's exactly what I'm leaning towards. All new outlets and switches and check wiring at each box and make sure gfis are where they are needed. The light fixtures are out of date and falling apart as well (slumlords). I did mention that to the manager too. Do you guys ever supply light fixtures in this type of situation where you are dealing with a property manager and not the owner of the house? 

I mean if you install all new outlets and switches and then you have a light fixture with a socket that's hanging out that's no good.


----------



## HackWork

I remember many times that I purposely shorted out a circuit in order to trip the breaker, and the breaker didn't trip even with new SquareD QO's. The lights would dim, but no trippy.

Why? Because there wasn't enough current being pulled to trip it. The length of the run limited it, maybe not-so-great connects contributed to that.

Just because you see an arc, it doesn't mean enough current flowed to trip the breaker.


----------



## macmikeman

HackWork said:


> I remember many times that I purposely shorted out a circuit in order to trip the breaker, and the breaker didn't trip even with new SquareD QO's. The lights would dim, but no trippy.
> 
> Why? Because there wasn't enough current being pulled to trip it. The length of the run limited it, maybe not-so-great connects contributed to that.
> 
> Just because you see an arc, it doesn't mean enough current flowed to trip the breaker.


Most likely Kenny clamp devices were properly installed to choke those nasty electrons on those outdated systems and did their job perfectly as described by the manufacturer of them.


----------



## chicken steve

I don't believe a mag trip standard exists for resi 'mini ocpd's'

So if one is far enough from the serving Xformer , it can arc & bark all day

~CS~


----------



## splatz

It's probably academic because they probably won't spend the money, but I might consider a panel upgrade more important than the device wiring if you have to do one or the other. Replacing devices will be an improvement for sure but without reliable functional OCPD it could all be for nothing.


----------



## zac

Make sure the box is properly bonded? Did you read 120 from the hot to ground at dimmer? 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## btharmy2

Chevys10zr2 said:


> I guess my questions are.
> A. Why wouldn't the breaker trip when I changed out the dimmer and touched the hot to the ground and made a huge explosion?


I guess my question is: Why don't you turn off the power before replacing devices????

The fact that you caused a hot to ground fault three times on the same service call should be reason enough to turn off the breaker. Not to mention possibly smoking a digital dimmer or injuring/killing yourself.


----------



## Chevys10zr2

Btharmy it would be nice to shut off the breakers but have you ever worked in an old **** hole before? Most times I have the panel is incorrectly labeled or not labeled at all. 
The first time was an accident and the second time I wasn't expecting a corroded wire under the clamp. I have been an electrician long enough to know what to touch and what not to. I didn't get shocked at all.


----------



## Chevys10zr2

I couldn't even count how many times I have had to work on things live. You don't always get the luxury to turn of the power.


----------



## sbrn33

I have been an electrician long enough to know that I shut **** down way more often than I used to. How do you think you looked to that customer? Plus that dimmer is probably screwed. 
I used to do stuff hot or trip it all the time but not anymore. It just makes you look amaturish. Just not worth the 10 minutes it would have taken to find the breaker.


----------



## HackWork

I'm just lazy. Why make 2 extra trips down to the basement? That profit comes right out of my pocket.

Lever Nuts have made working live even easier.


----------



## Chevys10zr2

The dimmer switch was junk I was replacing it with just a regular switch.


----------



## HackWork

sbrn33 said:


> I have been an electrician long enough to know that I shut **** down way more often than I used to. How do you think you looked to that customer? Plus that dimmer is probably screwed.
> I used to do stuff hot or trip it all the time but not anymore. It just makes you look amaturish. Just not worth the 10 minutes it would have taken to find the breaker.


When you get to my level of awesome, you set the stage for what "professional" is. If a customer sees me blow something up, they then think that blowing things up is the correct way to do it and all the other guys who didn't blow it up were lacking in skills and experience.


----------



## Chevys10zr2

Splatz I see what your saying but I feel like even if I did a panel upgrade the majority of the problems are in the boxes. The fact that someone didn't use wire nuts for the ground wires , didn't bond the metal boxes and stripped the wires maybe a quarter inch into the stab lock's is most of the problem.


----------



## bostonPedro

My advice. 
Don't work live. 
Plumbers shut off the water to install a toilet or sink. 
Gas fitters/plumbers shut off the gas to install a flex line for a stove or dryer. 
And yet 
People have an expectation that we should work live and why? Because some electricians continue to work live because whining customers don't want to shut off their computers, lose their heat or lose their lights for a period of time?


----------



## Chevys10zr2

Boston yea it's not my favorite thing to do. I don't challenge myself to work live, but it's kinda part of the job sometimes. Just like plumber's try not to get **** on their hands. We try not to get shocked sometimes. But I didn't start this to talk about working live. We can start another thread about that.


----------



## HackWork

Plumbers often don't shut off the gas, they let it come out while they change fittings on the fly.

I was even told here that was the standard SOP so rhere was no issue re-lighting other equipment.

Comparing one trade to the other is silly.


----------



## chicken steve

bostonPedro said:


> My advice.
> Don't work live.
> 
> 
> 
> Just get a 'spotter'......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :vs_cool:
> 
> ~CS~
Click to expand...


----------



## bostonPedro

HackWork said:


> Plumber don't shut off the gas, the let it come out while they change fittings on the fly.
> 
> I was even told here that was the standard SOP so rhere was no issue re-lighting other equipment.
> 
> Comparing one trade to the other is silly.


Read my examples and stop trying to be "that guy" all the time.


----------



## bostonPedro

Chevys10zr2 said:


> Boston yea it's not my favorite thing to do. I don't challenge myself to work live, but it's kinda part of the job sometimes. Just like plumber's try not to get **** on their hands. We try not to get shocked sometimes. But I didn't start this to talk about working live. We can start another thread about that.


Fair enough. I wont comment about safety on your thread anymore


----------



## HackWork

bostonPedro said:


> Read my examples and stop trying to be "that guy" all the time.


I read your examples. I then explained how one was incorrect and the others were apples and oranges.

We don't need you coming here telling us how to do what we've been doing for decades. Go to Mike Holt's with that perfect by the book all the time BS.


----------



## bostonPedro

HackWork said:


> I read your examples. I then explained how one was incorrect and the others were apples and oranges.
> 
> We don't need you coming here telling us how to do what we've been doing for decades. Go to Mike Holt's with that perfect by the book all the time BS.



Yawn. 
I just said I wouldn't comment about safety to the OP and I also dont plan on hijacking this thread getting into it with a waste of water and 4 dollars worth of minerals like yourself either


----------



## HackWork

bostonPedro said:


> Yawn.
> I just said I wouldn't comment about safety to the OP and I also dont plan on hijacking this thread getting into it with a waste of water and 4 dollars worth of minerals like yourself either


Thank you for the great post.

You are an asset to the forum.


----------



## MTW

HackWork said:


> Thank you for the great post.
> 
> You are an asset to the forum.


Stop stealing my lines.


----------



## MTW

HackWork said:


> Go to Mike Holt's with that perfect by the book all the time BS.


Someone here said I was degrading this "pro forum" because I talk about how things actually are in the trade, like not getting permits, not putting in AFCI's, not always following the code, and not supporting stupid trade organizations. But if you are a perfect electrician, MH is the place to be.


----------



## B-Nabs

Apart from the fact that I don't like working live much myself, IMO working on sensitive electronic devices live is a recipe for wrecking the device.

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


----------



## joebanana

What type of panel are you dealing with? Zinsco? FPE? The liability is on you, so keep that in mind. Romex arcing at the clamp? Hmmmmmm. Are there smokies in the house? Are they working?


----------



## Chevys10zr2

Joe when I took the clamp out the wire had zero insulation on it all the way to the copper so I pulled enough slack to cut that part off and rewired it to a new switch.
I guess that's kinda what I'm asking I started my own gig and am licensed and insured. I don't do much service work I try to stick to new construction and remodel where we install all new wire/boxes and rip old **** out. I do some service work but where do you draw the line. I don't wanna put a bandaid on a bullet wound. 

I was a little overwhelmed with this lady because she was not happy the landlord won't do anything for the house. I was just gonna leave but she was showing me a few things that I thought were potential fire hazards and there were a lot of kids in the house. So I installed the 2 new outlets ,took the old dimmer out that was making the light go on and off constantly and fixed the switch box she said was getting warm due to that bad wire.

Im debating on whether I am better off leaving this 1 alone. I feel for the family and was gonna try to get the manager to get some work done there. I don't know the best way to tackle this house if it would be install all new outlets and switches and make sure things are grounded? Or install new service or just make sure it's properly grounded. I didn't check for smoke detectors. I should have kinda dumb on my part.


----------



## macmikeman

Chevys10zr2 said:


> Btharmy it would be nice to shut off the breakers but have you ever worked in an old **** hole before? Most times I have the panel is incorrectly labeled or not labeled at all.
> The first time was an accident and the second time I wasn't expecting a corroded wire under the clamp. I have been an electrician long enough to know what to touch and what not to. I didn't get shocked at all.


Turn off the main breaker when you are unable to identify a proper branch circuit breaker. You ain't been an electrician long enough if you can't think of that.


----------



## Chevys10zr2

Thanks for the advice mac next time I change out an outlet I will shut down the whole house.


----------



## sbrn33

Chevys10zr2 said:


> Thanks for the advice mac next time I change out an outlet I will shut down the whole house.


Don't be a smart ass.
You are the one that cost you or your boss an embarrassment and money out of someones pocket. That customer is gone.


----------



## macmikeman

Chevys10zr2 said:


> Thanks for the advice mac next time I change out an outlet I will shut down the whole house.


If you cannot locate a breaker for an outlet , then you are truly a non electrician. I have at minimum 10 different good easy ways to locate the breaker in question. SOMETIMES it is rendered inaccessible by the owners building whatever in front too close/putting something too heavy in front /hiding it behind a finished wall/ etc. Go hit the main in those cases. 

In commercial buildings, your circuit breaker is likely to be in a panel where the current tenant has no access to it at all, and there is way more available fault current present at a device. Now that is an elephant of a different color. Now one learns how to replace an outlet safely while it is energized. Hax's nuts are good in that situation, but install pigtails to the new device and then tape up the device properly to insulate it from accidental contact to a grounded surface, and then attach the pigtails to the existing circuit wiring , and use a receptacle outlet tester inserted into the outlet as a handle to help guide the thing in properly and keep it centered while you re-attach the mounting screws. Three to six weeks around me and you would be in tip top shape laddy.


----------



## HackWork

Don’t worry Chevy. I got your back against these rookies.


----------



## Chevys10zr2

I mean everyone is caught up on working on stuff live and no that customer is not gone. They like me and want me to come back. If you have no professional opinions about the actual questions being asked please don't chime in. Thanks


----------



## HackWork

Chevys10zr2 said:


> I mean everyone is caught up on working on stuff live and no that customer is not gone. They like me and want me to come back. If you have no professional opinions about the actual questions being asked please don't chime in. Thanks


 Agreed. A professional can change an outlet hot. Anyone who says differently should be over at Mike Holts forum.


----------



## macmikeman

Chevys10zr2 said:


> I mean everyone is caught up on working on stuff live and no that customer is not gone. They like me and want me to come back. If you have no professional opinions about the actual questions being asked please don't chime in. Thanks


My professional opinion is that you didn't need to do that job live, you did it in a very unprofessional manner (in more ways than just keeping the power on).


----------



## Chevys10zr2

Hack I always appreciate your advice what would you do in this situation. Besides turning of a breaker to work on stuff.


----------



## macmikeman

Chevys10zr2 said:


> Hack I always appreciate your advice what would you do in this situation. Besides turning of a breaker to work on stuff.


Cmon now, you are supposed to ask me what else did you mess up on


----------



## electricguy

Many years ago when I did a dimmer change the new dimmer came with inf osheet stating not to change live it damage the dimmer , I will have to look one day and see it it is still the same.


----------



## Chevys10zr2

Mac I'm all ears what do you got?


----------



## macmikeman

electricguy said:


> Many years ago when I did a dimmer change the new dimmer came with inf osheet stating not to change live it damage the dimmer , I will have to look one day and see it it is still the same.


Lutron Trimatron dimmers would fabulously die if you wired em up live. I bet it was one of those you were speaking about.


----------



## HackWork

I change 13 switches to dimmers around a house not that long ago and I didn’t shut off a single circuit. That would have been a severe waste of time and profit. Never mind all the energy wasted going up and down stairs in a three-story house with the panel in the basement. 

I used lever nuts like any professional would. 

There is far more dangerous driving to the job then there is changing a dimmer out while the circuit is energized. Going by the logic of the rookies in this thread, they wouldn’t even drive to the job in the first place.


----------



## macmikeman

Chevys10zr2 said:


> Mac I'm all ears what do you got?


Actually , it was hackworks in another thread recently who put it best: 

Dealing with renters, tell em to have the owner call you. You are setting yourself up for a possible legal disaster if you don't. And a possible difficult payment situation as well.


----------



## HackWork

electricguy said:


> Many years ago when I did a dimmer change the new dimmer came with inf osheet stating not to change live it damage the dimmer , I will have to look one day and see it it is still the same.


If a device dies when wiring it up live, it would also die during a power outage or brown out.

As long as you wire up the load side first, there is no difference wiring it up live versus turning the breaker off and then back on.


----------



## sbrn33

HackWork said:


> If a device dies when wiring it up live, it would also die during a power outage or brown out.
> 
> As long as you wire up the load side first, there is no difference wiring it up live versus turning the breaker off and then back on.


no and you need to stop it.


----------



## Chevys10zr2

I'm dealing with a property manager. So things are running through her.
I told her the wiring in the house doesn't look like it was professionally done I told her I think all the outlets and switches should be changed out and I would check the wiring in all the boxes to see if all is good. I'm just kinda wondering if I start touching everything am I gonna be liable for everything in the house cuz the place is kinda a **** hole and if I do this and find out such things like the panel is bad or there are no smoke detectors and they don't want to pay me for all that and let's say a fire happens and there are no smoke detectors are all fingers pointed at me even if mention these things to the manager and she doesn't want to pay for these things.


----------



## HackWork

sbrn33 said:


> no and you need to stop it.


 So tell me about this magical difference between turning breaker on and touching two wires together. I know it might make slower, but tell me how that’s different than a typical brown out or power outage.

How many months have you been doing electrical work for? Don’t they have a union out there where you could do an apprenticeship?


----------



## sbrn33

Chevys10zr2 said:


> I'm dealing with a property manager. So things are running through her.
> I told her the wiring in the house doesn't look like it was professionally done I told her I think all the outlets and switches should be changed out and I would check the wiring in all the boxes to see if all is good. I'm just kinda wondering if I start touching everything am I gonna be liable for everything in the house cuz the place is kinda a **** hole and if I do this and find out such things like the panel is bad or there are no smoke detectors and they don't want to pay me for all that and let's say a fire happens and there are no smoke detectors are all fingers pointed at me even if mention these things to the manager and she doesn't want to pay for these things.


Who cares, if you are working on someone else property I am sure you have great insurance, right??


----------



## HackWork

Chevys10zr2 said:


> I'm dealing with a property manager. So things are running through her.
> I told her the wiring in the house doesn't look like it was professionally done I told her I think all the outlets and switches should be changed out and I would check the wiring in all the boxes to see if all is good. I'm just kinda wondering if I start touching everything am I gonna be liable for everything in the house cuz the place is kinda a **** hole and if I do this and find out such things like the panel is bad or there are no smoke detectors and they don't want to pay me for all that and let's say a fire happens and there are no smoke detectors are all fingers pointed at me even if mention these things to the manager and she doesn't want to pay for these things.


 You are liable for what you touch and spell out clearly in your paperwork. It’s also a good idea to put a line item note saying that you informed the customer that other work should be done and they turned it down.


----------



## sbrn33

HackWork said:


> So tell me about this magical difference between turning breaker on and touching two wires together. I know it might make slower, but tell me how that’s different than a typical brown out or power outage.
> 
> How many months have you been doing electrical work for? Don’t they have a union out there where you could do an apprenticeship?


So you are faster than a breaker hooking up the hot?


----------



## Chevys10zr2

Yes I have insurance. I think I am going to redevice the place and when I bill them I will just put in there the other potential problems with the place so there is written document. That way they know about the other problems and if they choose not to fix them there is not much I can do.


----------



## Chevys10zr2

Hack that's exactly what I was looking for thanks!


----------



## HackWork

sbrn33 said:


> So you are faster than a breaker hooking up the hot?


 I specifically spoke about that in my post that you quoted.

You’re being silly.


----------



## btharmy2

I used to work hot while changing devices. I then realized, I work 2-3x faster if the power is off. I can change out more devices in less time when I don't have to worry about it. So, I use a circuit tracer (which many clients are curious about and we talk about safety) to find and turn off the circuit. I make the labor back in the increased speed of work since the power is off and not a danger. I have not caused a hot to ground fault in a clients house in over 3 years. Chevy did it 3 times on the same service call. Nobody with half a brain can be convinced he did it the right way and I'm doing it the wrong way.


----------



## btharmy2

Chevys10zr2 said:


> Yes I have insurance. I think I am going to redevice the place and when I bill them I will just put in there the other potential problems with the place so there is written document. That way they know about the other problems and if they choose not to fix them there is not much I can do.


You can only do what they pay you for. I agree, you might want to mention potential problems but fixing them is their problem. If I fixed every violation and faulty/hazardous installation for free I would be out of business in a week.


----------



## macmikeman

Chevys10zr2 said:


> *I'm dealing with a property manager.* So things are running through her.
> I told her the wiring in the house doesn't look like it was professionally done I told her I think all the outlets and switches should be changed out and I would check the wiring in all the boxes to see if all is good. I'm just kinda wondering if I start touching everything am I gonna be liable for everything in the house cuz the place is kinda a **** hole and if I do this and find out such things like the panel is bad or there are no smoke detectors and they don't want to pay me for all that and let's say a fire happens and there are no smoke detectors are all fingers pointed at me even if mention these things to the manager and she doesn't want to pay for these things.


Legally , the property management company is the official go between so you are better off in those cases. I took this at first as meaning you fell for the tenant called you with problems kind of situation. Those are a trap.


----------



## Chevys10zr2

Btharmy Noone said you are doing things the wrong way. I posted this to see what service guys out there are doing when they walk into a household that is very outdated and looks like the wiring wasn't done by a professional. Like I said I'm not big into service work and I'm just getting more involved in it so I like to do lots of research. This site allows me to post specific things I am dealing with.

I was taught by a 3 different crack heads and they were all hack jobs and then thrown out on my own after a year maybe year and a half. So most of my learning on how to do things right comes from my own research and trial and error. I was always taught you are a ***** if you can't work on stuff live. I realize it don't look good to blow things up in front of customers but maybe some of the old timers should have done a better job back in the day and not been such hack jobs. I mean who leaves 3 inches of wire in a box for **** sake. You can barely pull the dam device out. What the hell were they thinking.


----------



## eddy current

electricguy said:


> Many years ago when I did a dimmer change the new dimmer came with inf osheet stating not to change live it damage the dimmer , I will have to look one day and see it it is still the same.


Everything says that in the paperwork/instructions. Dimmers, switches, receptacles......

It is just a liability thing for most. Although I have fried a few fancy ones connecting them live.

I work faster with the power off.


----------



## btharmy2

Chevys10zr2 said:


> I was always taught you are a ***** if you can't work on stuff live. I realize it don't look good to blow things up in front of customers but maybe some of the old timers should have done a better job back in the day and not been such hack jobs. I mean who leaves 3 inches of wire in a box for **** sake. You can barely pull the dam device out. What the hell were they thinking.


I was always told: There are 2 kinds of electricians, old electricians and bold electricians. Very rarely do you find an old bold electrician. Meaning, there's nothing cool or manly about working hot, and it is dangerous. Yes, sometimes it is necessary, especially required when tracing or troubleshooting. As far as the slack in the box is concerned, things have improved from the old standard of the shorter the better. I still fight the battle with new residential construction about cutting all of the ground wires off 2" long.


----------



## OrionElectric

That brings to mind why I prefer dealing with electrons instead of molecules. When you break a wire, the electrons just stop. Whereas you break a pipe and the molecules just fly the "f" everywhere and create a huge problem. Electricians have a little more flexibility during installation. Plumbers do not. But electrician can die. Plumbers get wet. Make all your choices wisely.


----------



## Liverpoolcompliance

Chevys10zr2 said:


> Joe when I took the clamp out the wire had zero insulation on it all the way to the copper so I pulled enough slack to cut that part off and rewired it to a new switch.
> I guess that's kinda what I'm asking I started my own gig and am licensed and insured. I don't do much service work I try to stick to new construction and remodel where we install all new wire/boxes and rip old **** out. I do some service work but where do you draw the line. I don't wanna put a bandaid on a bullet wound.
> 
> I was a little overwhelmed with this lady because she was not happy the landlord won't do anything for the house. I was just gonna leave but she was showing me a few things that I thought were potential fire hazards and there were a lot of kids in the house. So I installed the 2 new outlets ,took the old dimmer out that was making the light go on and off constantly and fixed the switch box she said was getting warm due to that bad wire.
> 
> Im debating on whether I am better off leaving this 1 alone. I feel for the family and was gonna try to get the manager to get some work done there. I don't know the best way to tackle this house if it would be install all new outlets and switches and make sure things are grounded? Or install new service or just make sure it's properly grounded. I didn't check for smoke detectors. I should have kinda dumb on my part.


If you realised the breakers didn't trip after a earth fault then I would of advised you to turn all power off and carry out a full electrical test and inspection. I am guilty of changing live fixtures but the fact that you causes 2 direct love contacts and arc flashing shows you are working in a dangerous and unprofessional manner by not safely isolating the supply whilst working on it .I suppose a duty of care would of been to stay an fix all the problems for this person as they have asked you to do electrical work because they have obviously judged you to be an educated tradesman in your profession. And I don't think you have done the correct thing here . I would certainly return and tell them you need to carry out repair works immediately and you didn't have time the last time you were there and did not anything then because you did not want to raise alarm or concern to them . But know you are able to do the work. If they don't want the work done or can't pay for it then u would write a full report on your recommendations and give this to the home owner. If anything happens there you will be held accountable especially the fire risk in the fuse board. Make a full report and price for the time to carry out full test and install correct earthing system. I am guilty of the exact same thing you have done here but it is just down to sheer luck nothing happens and no one gets injured. But you need to realise that you have a big responsibility in this trade of you carry on doing it and that is understand you are a high position of health & Safety authority that is you decide whether a property is safe from shock and fire risk and is safe does family to continue to live there . This is your call and it is a big call. You got it wrong this time but you can make it right


----------



## brian john

joebanana said:


> What type of panel are you dealing with? Zinsco? FPE? The liability is on you, so keep that in mind. Romex arcing at the clamp? Hmmmmmm. Are there smokies in the house? Are they working?


What liability are you are talking about?


----------



## brian john

Liverpoolcompliance said:


> If you realised the breakers didn't trip after a earth fault then I would of advised you to turn all power off and carry out a full electrical test and inspection.right


You are from the UK this is America, residential electricians and 90% of commercial electricians never test anything other than energized or not and current on the circuit. Just not done, few have meggers much less any type of ground tester.


----------



## catsparky1

I know I know sometimes we must work hot you got no choice . With that said .

Friday night just shy of five PM . I send dude up to the fifth floor replace a 277 switch . He WAS a good spark . He decides to just replace live and go home . As he was putting in switch the device slipped out of his hand and boom goes the dynamite . I am down in the basement and the whole place goes dark . Elevators are stuck mass panic .

I walk up to the fifth floor and see him laying on the ground . No not dead YET . I go back to the main and he blew 2 2000 amp 480 fuses . I go back to the fifth he is still on the ground . Do you know how much money you just spent . Do you know how much those fuses cost . It is 5 on friday . Sorry bro you be fired . Breakers did not trip . Mains did not trip . Fuses took the beating . Really bad luck we look stupid and not a happy day . All from I am to lazy to shut one f-ing breaker .

Later on in that same place I got lazy And 480 bit me good . I am still looking for the tip of my pinky 20 years later still looking . We all have had to do it but just don't . Oh If you turn off all the ones that say 15 on them you should be good . If you do not know that by now tell me who trained you so I can beat them for they have failed you son .


----------



## joebanana

brian john said:


> What liability are you are talking about?


When the house burns down, the homeowner is going to tell the insurance adjuster (if they're still alive, otherwise it could turn into a murder investigation) that they "just had an electrician work on it", and the adjuster is going to want to recoup their loses. Guess who they'll want to talk to next?
Insurance companies don't "F" around, if it's going to cost them.


----------



## brian john

joebanana said:


> When the house burns down, the homeowner is going to tell the insurance adjuster (if they're still alive, otherwise it could turn into a murder investigation) that they "just had an electrician work on it", and the adjuster is going to want to recoup their loses. Guess who they'll want to talk to next?
> Insurance companies don't "F" around, if it's going to cost them.


If you don't touch it, you don't own it PERIOD, now you may have to fight that in court.


----------



## lighterup

Liverpoolcompliance said:


> If you realised the breakers didn't trip after a earth fault then I would of advised you to turn all power off and carry out a full electrical test and inspection. I am guilty of changing live fixtures but the fact that you causes 2 direct love contacts and arc flashing shows you are working in a dangerous and unprofessional manner by not safely isolating the supply whilst working on it .I suppose a duty of care would of been to stay an fix all the problems for this person as they have asked you to do electrical work because they have obviously judged you to be an educated tradesman in your profession. And I don't think you have done the correct thing here . I would certainly return and tell them you need to carry out repair works immediately and you didn't have time the last time you were there and did not anything then because you did not want to raise alarm or concern to them . But know you are able to do the work. If they don't want the work done or can't pay for it then u would write a full report on your recommendations and give this to the home owner. If anything happens there you will be held accountable especially the fire risk in the fuse board. Make a full report and price for the time to carry out full test and install correct earthing system. I am guilty of the exact same thing you have done here but it is just down to sheer luck nothing happens and no one gets injured. But you need to realise that you have a big responsibility in this trade of you carry on doing it and that is understand you are a high position of health & Safety authority that is you decide whether a property is safe from shock and fire risk and is safe does family to continue to live there . This is your call and it is a big call. You got it wrong this time but you can make it right


I read your post and it must be very very different in th UK.

I'll condense this down to ..."if they don't want the work 
done...write a full report...give it to the home owner...":vs_laugh:

Dude , WTF are you talking about?

You are not seriously suggesting the HO would show up
in court with your letter are you?....There gonna say ..
"What effing report"?


Now if you had said this...."if they don't want the work 
done...write a full report....give one copy to the local 
AHJ ...one copy to the EC's attorney....one copy to the
EC's commercial liability insurance company....send one
copy to the HO , fully notarized , registered US mail...

So now that you have spent money on all the following...

(a) Your lawyer cause as soon as he gets your mail , he slaps
that timer thingy on while he opens & reads then prepares
a response for you.
(b) Your time (non billable time) and postage fees for 
all the above

what have you really accomplished?

The Insurance company rolls there eyes when they get your letter
The lawyer sees dollar signs in his eyes when he gets your letter
The AHJ gets teras (of laughter) when he gets your letter
annnnnd...not only passes your letter around to all working at the 
office for a good laugh , but it gets the honor of being thumb 
tacked up on the board for the month and after that no one 
_knows "whatever happened to that letter we had thumbtacked 
up to the board"._....

Finally , guess what the HO does when they get your letter...
File 13 (after they read the first paragraph)


----------



## HackWork

Sometimes I don't think people are living in real life.

On Saturday I went to a house to find a short circuit, the breaker kept tripping. Nothing was code compliant, everything was dangerous. There were dozens of flying splices throughout the entire basement. There was an open electrical box on the bathroom wall with wires sticking out. There was a wire sticking out of the outside of the house in which a light used to be before it fell off. Everything was horrible.

I found the short and fixed it, then left. This house was exactly the same as every other house on the block and the owner didn't care. "It has worked just fine for 60 years".

We as electrician are NOT "a high position of health & Safety authority" and we don't decide *anything*, certainly not if the family could still live there :vs_laugh: It's the owner's call, and liability.


----------



## lighterup

That's ^ why I wonder if The Uk is that much different.

If the AHJ , Insurance companies , lawyers were
really the safety Nazi's , why have all of our
major inner city residential and commercial properties
look like a war zone in the Congo?


----------



## Mr.Awesome

OP,

Your questions sound like you're having a moral dilemma because of the kids. I'd take the advice here and verbally inform the landlord, as well as document it on your invoice.
Beyond that, not a lot you can do. 
You could always toss an anonymous tip in to the rental board or somewhere but if someone comes poking around looking at the electrical, it isn't going to be hard for the landlord to put two and two together and know you reported them. Bad word of mouth for you from then on.
Its a tough situation. If you were working at an oil change shop and a guy with his kids showed up to grab his car smelling of booze, do you give him his keys back? You were just tasked with changing his oil.
You could escalate things and tattle, but you're going to get bad PR out of it.
On the flip side, on the 1 in 1,000,000,000 chance that you read about one of the kids dying in a house fire, would you be able to live with that?
****ty place to be in bud.


----------



## joebanana

brian john said:


> If you don't touch it, you don't own it PERIOD, now you may have to fight that in court.


All you have to do is prove to a jury that you didn't touch it.
As we've seen in the past, jurors ain't all that bright.


----------



## brian john

joebanana said:


> All you have to do is prove to a jury that you didn't touch it.
> As we've seen in the past, jurors ain't all that bright.


If we took that approach we would not take on most the work we do.


----------



## brian john

HackWork said:


> Sometimes I don't think people are living in real life.
> y.


By what I posted earlier arc flash in residential is minimal by design, the risk of shock is still there but troubleshooting requires some hot work.

From a safety stand point, I cannot condone hot work for anyone as for myself well no of course. :wink:


----------



## HackWork

joebanana said:


> When the house burns down, the homeowner is going to tell the insurance adjuster (*if they're still alive, otherwise it could turn into a murder investigation*)


You're well on your way to your goal of becoming as big of a clown as chicken steve.


----------



## MTW

joebanana said:


> When the house burns down, the homeowner is going to tell the insurance adjuster (if they're still alive, otherwise it could turn into a murder investigation) that they "just had an electrician work on it", and the adjuster is going to want to recoup their loses. Guess who they'll want to talk to next?
> Insurance companies don't "F" around, if it's going to cost them.


My response would be "Yeah, try to prove it was my work. Anyone could have come in and altered it after me a minute after I left, including the homeowner. Not my responsibility what someone does to their own house after I leave."


----------



## HackWork

MTW said:


> My response would be "Yeah, try to prove it was my work. Anyone could have come in and altered it after me a minute after I left, including the homeowner. Not my responsibility what someone does to their own house after I leave."


It would never come to that point. 

There are a couple hundred million homes in America, all of them with electricity, most of them with some type of code violation if not something that would be considered very dangerous.

Show me all of the law suits. Out of those numbers, there would have to be tens of thousands of lawsuits to make it a realistic liability issue for us to worry about. Can anyone show us 1?


----------



## brian john

HackWork said:


> You're well on your way to your goal of becoming as big of a clown as chicken steve.


I believe Joe is more commercial and this is a widespread belief in many commercial firms. Many contractors take this stance to avoid that old nasty work.

How many times have you seen posted in this forum EC's that refuse to work with anything with the tag FPE?

More than one refused because it was an FPE transformer which has no affiliation with the "old" FPE.


----------



## joebanana

MTW said:


> My response would be "Yeah, try to prove it was my work. Anyone could have come in and altered it after me a minute after I left, including the homeowner. Not my responsibility what someone does to their own house after I leave."


Do you give your customers an invoice?


----------



## HackWork

joebanana said:


> Do you give your customers an invoice?


You should give up while you are behind.


----------



## joebanana

HackWork said:


> You should give up while you are behind.


And you should suck me.


----------



## HackWork

joebanana said:


> And you should suck me.


Wait a second! You made multiple posts proclaiming to everyone how great it was to have me on your Ignore list, remember??? 

Did you get mad because no one agreed with you, and decided to take me off because I am actually really awesome???

:biggrin::vs_laugh::vs_laugh:


----------



## lighterup

joebanana said:


> All you have to do is prove to a jury that you didn't touch it.
> As we've seen in the past, jurors ain't all that bright.


Would never get to a jury.

The person (if any at all) that you would be
dealing with first is the Building department
and fire dept chiefs.

In the event of an incident involving electrical
these guys working in tandem would be the ones
recommending prosecution (if they found an EC
liable)...and any HO who did NOT pull a permit 
or have a permit pulled by an EC for the work in
question would have a very hard time with
levying an accusation like this . 

Again if there is no permit...that's where the HO is
screwed.


----------



## robert740i

i shorted a fan box to find the breaker. big spark. nothing labeled. no power at box or switch. no tripped breaker. reset all the breakers. still no power at switch or fan ceiling box. now what ? house was built in the 50's.


----------



## eddy current

robert740i said:


> i shorted a fan box to find the breaker. big spark. nothing labeled. no power at box or switch. no tripped breaker. reset all the breakers. still no power at switch or fan ceiling box. now what ? house was built in the 50's.


Call an electrician


----------



## emtnut

robert740i said:


> i shorted a fan box to find the breaker. big spark. nothing labeled. no power at box or switch. no tripped breaker. reset all the breakers. still no power at switch or fan ceiling box. *now what ?* house was built in the 50's.


Stop shorting wires


----------

