# A Question about "Bugging In"



## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Briarwood said:


> Hi, everyone, I'm a 22 yr old guy in Philly who's thinking about taking up an electrical career. One thing that does give me the jitters is the process of "Bugging In" a drop wire on a residental/commerical property. Can anyone tell me how electricans complete this process safely? Will Linesman's gloves and using a Fiberglass ladder really protect you?


 

You could just let poco bug it...:whistling2:


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Briarwood said:


> Hi, everyone, I'm a 22 yr old guy in Philly who's thinking about taking up an electrical career. One thing that does give me the jitters is the process of "Bugging In" a drop wire on a residental/commerical property. Can anyone tell me how electricans complete this process safely? Will Linesman's gloves and using a Fiberglass ladder really protect you?




I've decoded the secret message using my special DIY decoder ring.
Here it is,



Briarwood said:


> Hi, everyone, I'm a *42* yr old guy in Philly *who's a DIY. I'm trying to do this electrical work for this basement I just refinished but I don't know how.* One thing that does give me the jitters is the process of "Bugging In" a drop wire on a residental/commerical property. Can anyone tell me *how to do this because I would really like to do electrical on the side. It looks easy enough but I'm not real sure.* Will using *an aluminum ladder really hurt you? I really don't have room on top of my Jeep Cherokee for another ladder*



:jester::no:


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Slick, you know we don't agree on much.....but I'm a thinking the same thing!:laughing: Thats scary!! Next thing you know you and Bob will ask me out for a MILLER LITE!!!


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## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

slickvic277 said:


> I've decoded the secret message using my special DIY decoder ring.
> Here it is,
> 
> 
> ...


 
OH, how I envy you, give me the decoder ring it's mine.:no::laughing::no:


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## BCSparkyGirl (Aug 20, 2009)

slickvic277 said:


> I've decoded the secret message using my special DIY decoder ring.
> Here it is,
> 
> 
> ...


:laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## BCSparkyGirl (Aug 20, 2009)

slickvic277 said:


> I've decoded the secret message using my special DIY decoder ring.
> Here it is,
> 
> 
> ...


:laughing::laughing::laughing: still waiting for mine in the mail!


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

BCSparkyGirl said:


> :laughing::laughing::laughing: still waiting for mine in the mail!


 

Thats the problem....its a cracker jack decoder ring you need!:thumbsup:


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## BCSparkyGirl (Aug 20, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> Thats the problem....its a cracker jack decoder ring you need!:thumbsup:


off to the store I go......here I was sending in the boxtops from the Wheaties boxes......but the odds are I will just end up getting a BC drivers license from the one I buy!


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

BCSparkyGirl said:


> off to the store I go......here I was sending in the boxtops from the Wheaties boxes......


 
You know you were just buying all those boxes of Wheaties so you can look at the male athletes!:jester::laughing:


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> Slick, you know we don't agree on much.....but I'm a thinking the same thing!:laughing: Thats scary!! Next thing you know you and Bob will ask me out for a MILLER LITE!!!



Don't flatter yourself:whistling2:


Miller lite sucks.:jester:


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

slickvic277 said:


> Don't flatter yourself:whistling2:
> 
> 
> Having a drink with you and Bob flattery??????
> ...


I perfer Michelob light anyway..


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

How can any "Lite" beer taste any better than strong apple juice :blink:

If your going to pop a top, at least pick a REAL beer :thumbsup:


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Black4Truck said:


> How can any "Lite" beer taste any better than strong apple juice :blink:
> 
> If your going to pop a top, at least pick a REAL beer :thumbsup:


 
Don't you have some pvc boxes to burry???:whistling2::laughing:


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## Briarwood (Aug 17, 2010)

No, I'm not some cheap slob who's trying to be a handyman hero. I'm simply considering entering the field and was wondering where I can find more information on how services are properly installed. I already did a stint at Pennco Tech in Bristol PA back in 06-07, so I have a taste of what it's like to be in the field.....

Aluminum ladder, nice tip.....:whistling2:


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Briarwood said:


> No, I'm not some cheap slob who's trying to be a handyman hero. I'm simply considering entering the field and was wondering where I can find more information on how services are properly installed. I already did a stint at Pennco Tech in Bristol PA back in 06-07, so I have a taste of what it's like to be in the field.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

The poco will never "bug" somehting in for you without a passed inspection first, at least in my neck of the woods.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Bkessler said:


> The poco will never "bug" somehting in for you without a passed inspection first, at least in my neck of the woods.


 
Well yea...but no one has said anything about not getting an inspection...


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## Briarwood (Aug 17, 2010)

Bkessler said:


> The poco will never "bug" somehting in for you without a passed inspection first, at least in my neck of the woods.


I thought the city/township/borough is always going to inspect everything, bugging in yourself or not. I didn't know power companies will bug in for you, I thought contractors who run new services were the ones who have to go cut off the old bugs and re-connect the new service cable.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Briarwood said:


> I thought the city/township/borough is always going to inspect everything, bugging in yourself or not. I didn't know power companies will bug in for you, I thought contractors who run new services were the ones who have to go cut off the old bugs and re-connect the new service cable.


 

Nope the drop belongs to poco and they do it here....Or I will if I need it done right then.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Briarwood said:


> No, I'm not some cheap slob who's trying to be a handyman hero. I'm simply considering entering the field and was wondering where I can find more information on how services are properly installed. I already did a stint at Pennco Tech in Bristol PA back in 06-07, so I have a taste of what it's like to be in the field.....
> 
> Aluminum ladder, nice tip.....:whistling2:



Woe, calm down there skippy.

First off, if you can't take a little ribbing your never gonna amount to jack squat in the field. Second, trade school experience is good to have but not the same as field experience so don't suggest other wise.

Now being your new to the business "bugging in" will be your last concern.
If your interested in how typical residential services are done familiarize yourself with article 230.

_Illustration for 100 Service-Entrance Conductors, Overhead System _ _In this overhead system, a service drop from a utility pole ends in attachment on a house, and service-entrance conductors run from the point of attachment (spliced to service-drop conductors) down the side of the house through the meter socket and terminate in the service equipment. _











_Illustration for 100 Service-Entrance Conductors, Underground System _ _Underground systems can be configured with service laterals run from a pole or run from a transformer. _


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

Gloves? Fiberglass ladder?

LULZ

All you need is some flip flops and a wife beater. Gloves are for metros.

Wait for the poco to do it here you will be waiting a loooong time.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

We average 1-3 service upgrades per week, and NEVER have to cut the drop. That's just not how I do it.


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

mcclary's electrical said:


> We average 1-3 service upgrades per week, and NEVER have to cut the drop. That's just not how I do it.


 The pocos here dont even have a process to get them to do it. It just isnt an option. You can call for a D&R and they will not even know what you want when they get there, they will tell you to call an electrician. Either cut in yourself or buy candles.

so we put on our flip flops and away we go ...


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## mikeg_05 (Jan 1, 2009)

Briarwood said:


> Hi, everyone, I'm a 22 yr old guy in Philly who's thinking about taking up an electrical career. One thing that does give me the jitters is the process of "Bugging In" a drop wire on a residental/commerical property. Can anyone tell me how electricans complete this process safely? Will Linesman's gloves and using a Fiberglass ladder really protect you?


before you get to carried away, go grab my tools and that bundle of conduit and hurry up.


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## mikeg_05 (Jan 1, 2009)

seriously if you do get into the field you will not have to be put in that situation for quite sometime.


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

mikeg_05 said:


> before you get to carried away, go grab my tools and that bundle of conduit and hurry up.


Thats what I was thinking, his biggest concern should be remembering ketchup and double checking lunch orders.


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## BCSparkyGirl (Aug 20, 2009)

I'll take a double tall non fat vanilla latte, since you are doing a coffee run......


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## Briarwood (Aug 17, 2010)

slickvic277 said:


> Woe, calm down there skippy.
> 
> First off, if you can't take a little ribbing your never gonna amount to jack squat in the field. Second, trade school experience is good to have but not the same as field experience so don't suggest other wise.
> 
> ...


I knew the aluminum ladder thing was a joke. I just didn't know if you really thought I was going to go out and be mr fix it, becuase let's face it, it's not like that hasn't happened before. 

I hear you about the trade school =! the field thing. The whole reason I'm asking is becuase when I did do some side work with a contractor in NE Philly he did ask me if I wanted to bug in on the 3rd day. I was somewhat apprehencive (_okay, fine, I was a *****_).....


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Briarwood said:


> I knew the aluminum ladder thing was a joke. I just didn't know if you really thought I was going to go out and be mr fix it, becuase let's face it, it's not like that hasn't happened before.
> 
> I hear you about the trade school =! the field thing. The whole reason I'm asking is becuase when I did do some side work with a contractor in NE Philly he did ask me if I wanted to bug in on the 3rd day. I was somewhat apprehencive (_okay, fine, I was a *****_).....


 

Anybody who lets someone with very little experience hook up a riser is an idiot.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Briarwood said:


> ...I was somewhat apprehencive (_okay, fine, I was a *****_)....


 Bull$&*#! You were using your god-given common sense that was telling you when you shouldn't be doing something dangerous because of your inexperience.

I'm not dumping on you, but definitely dumping on the guy who asked you to do that. He had no business asking or expecting that of you. :furious:

There's a saying that you should probably listen to if you're gonna get into this trade: Any time you don't feel safe, you probably aren't. 

Sometimes you gotta say "No."

-John


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## Briarwood (Aug 17, 2010)

Big John said:


> Bull$&*#! You were using your god-given common sense that was telling you when you shouldn't be doing something dangerous because of your inexperience.
> 
> I'm not dumping on you, but definitely dumping on the guy who asked you to do that. He had no business asking or expecting that of you. :furious:
> 
> ...


Well, even though I felt uneasy about it, the guy was basically telling me that as long as wore gloves and grew a pair of balls (_direct quote, btw)_ that I'd be fine. When I went to tech school I got hammered becuase here I was this four eyed guy who's more into books than football(<---_Go Giants!!!)_. I freely admit that I'm a nerd and my teachers, while they respected my work ethic, said I needed to man up to make it in the electrical field. 

So when I have this foreman guy telling me to do something and to "Be a real man" I did kinda feel guilty for backing out.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Briarwood said:


> Well, even though I felt uneasy about it, the guy was basically telling me that as long as wore gloves and grew a pair of balls (_direct quote, btw)_ that I'd be fine. When I went to tech school I got hammered becuase here I was this four eyed guy who's more into books than football(<---_Go Giants!!!)_. I freely admit that I'm a nerd and my teachers, while they respected my work ethic, said I needed to man up to make it in the electrical field.
> 
> So when I have this foreman guy telling me to do something and to "Be a real man" I did kinda feel guilty for backing out.


 
Only an experienced Jman should be doing things like that. Period, end of story.


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

Briarwood said:


> Well, even though I felt uneasy about it, the guy was basically telling me that as long as wore gloves and grew a pair of balls (_direct quote, btw)_ that I'd be fine. When I went to tech school I got hammered becuase here I was this four eyed guy who's more into books than football(<---_Go Giants!!!)_. I freely admit that I'm a nerd and my teachers, while they respected my work ethic, said I needed to man up to make it in the electrical field.
> 
> So when I have this foreman guy telling me to do something and to "Be a real man" I did kinda feel guilty for backing out.


 Will you feel like a real man, when you are laying on the ground looking up at the sky, possibly with the ladder on top of you.

Also the guy who told you to be a man, and do it, is a JERK!!!


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

I'm putting the secret decoder ring up for auction. I'll start the bidding at $50. Do I hear $55.......


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

slickvic277 said:


> I'm putting the secret decoder ring up for auction. I'll start the bidding at $50. Do I hear $55.......


I have glasses that see through wool, their for sale too.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Bkessler said:


> I have glasses that see through wool, their for sale too.



Maybe would should combine them in the auction. I'll split the money with ya.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Briarwood said:


> ...I freely admit that I'm a nerd and my teachers, while they respected my work ethic, said I needed to man up to make it in the electrical field.
> 
> So when I have this foreman guy telling me to do something and to "Be a real man" I did kinda feel guilty for backing out.


Been there, done that. Got into the trade as a goofy seventeen year-old kid. By the time I turned eighteen, I was swearing I'd never do electrical work again. I ate a ton of crap. 

Don't think that when you're getting flak it would all go away if only you "were a real man." It won't. Not until you get some experience and know-how under your belt. You will make mistakes as you learn and bugging up live service conductors is a real bad place to make a mistake.

"Wore a pair of gloves"? 
Were they insulated? 
Were they insulated for the voltage you were working on? 
Were they tested in the last six months? 
Were they properly fitted to your hands? 
Did he show you how to inspect them in the field? 
Did you do that inspection?
If any of those questions is a "No." then growing balls has nothing to do with it, because it's stupid to do it any other way.

Even if the answers were "Yes" and you were on a fiberglass ladder, that might've reduced the shock hazard, but did he explain anything to you about arc flash? 
Or available-fault current on unfused service conductors? 
Were you wearing a fire-resistant shirt? 
Or even a hardhat and safety glasses? 
Once again, if the answer to any of those is "No" then we've crossed into "stupid" territory, again.

There's a lot more to this trade than just "growing balls." Any fool can do something dangerous, it doesn't make them a good electrician.

I didn't intend to rant, but guys like your "foreman" piss me off.

-John


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

BCSparkyGirl said:


> off to the store I go......here I was sending in the boxtops from the Wheaties boxes......


I'm still collecting Campbell soup labels, and Mallow Cup coins for mine.


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

I bug all my services in ......I dont think I ever had the POCO do it for me. Not even when I worked with other EC'S. For what its worth, if you happen to ground yourself to one of the hot service wires your not going to get incinerated instantly....It has the same potential as a 120 volt outlet. But I highly doubt that any company would make a helper bug one in any time soon. If they do I would probably not feel to comfortable working there.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

When your times up, your times up. There's a reason why we have statistics just don't be one of them. I'm much more scared getting up on the roof to do a fan than I am bugging in. It's safe to say that if you do not understand current flow it's safe to assume you're not ready to tie in an electrical service.


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## stackappartment (Apr 4, 2010)

On my first day of work 3 years ago i saw my co-worker cut the service and bug it in at the day. I thought he was crazy:001_huh: Took almost 2 years for me to feel confident enough.


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## SPINA ELECTRIC (Dec 1, 2009)

I've always bugged in my own services unless the POCO inspects it changes the meter and puts their bugs on I remember the first time I bugged in a service my old boss watched me and then I knew I was ready I agree with the other guys. If you are a home owner or not an experienced electrician you should be no where near a tie in tell your foreman I said he's a moran.


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## Jsmit319 (Sep 23, 2010)

That's all I have to say to the "foreman". You were smart to recognize you were not anywhere near qualified to work on the service.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

How about larger services, like 1000, 1200, 1600, and 2000 amp services? 

Surely no one is even attempting to tie-in some 480 volt service at any of those sizes, or are they? 


That would seem like suicide if you ask me.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

Magnettica said:


> How about larger services, like 1000, 1200, 1600, and 2000 amp services?
> 
> Surely no one is even attempting to tie-in some 480 volt service at any of those sizes, or are they?
> 
> ...


if a lineman can do it, I can do it.

~Matt


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

TOOL_5150 said:


> if a lineman can do it, I can do it.
> 
> ~Matt


You could barely tie your shoes...


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

HackWork said:


> You could barely tie your shoes...


lol youre just pissed at everyone tonight huh?

cry some more....


~Matt


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

TOOL_5150 said:


> lol youre just pissed at everyone tonight huh?
> 
> cry some more....
> 
> ...


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Magnettica said:


> How about larger services, like 1000, 1200, 1600, and 2000 amp services?
> 
> Surely no one is even attempting to tie-in some 480 volt service at any of those sizes, or are they?


After watching a lineman hang out in his truck all day, waiting for us to pull in the primary, then he terminated in 30 minutes and called it a day... I thought being a lineman might be where its at... NAWWWTT


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

I bugged in my first overhead service when I was about 17. Barehanded I'm sure since I never seen a pair of rated gloves untill years later. PPE is a pretty modern revolution that I'm still gradually getting familiar with.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

gold said:


> I bugged in my first overhead service when I was about 17. Barehanded I'm sure since I never seen a pair of rated gloves untill years later. PPE is a pretty modern revolution that I'm still gradually getting familiar with.


Check out the NFPA 70E


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

The best one I remember was about 15 years ago, while racheting the featherbox connector i spotted a teenage girl removing her bra in the house next door, within that minute there was a good blast and I noticed the light in her room go off and her looking up at it. The explanation to the Poco was well worth the sight of those jugs.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Shockdoc said:


> The best one I remember was about 15 years ago, while racheting the featherbox connector i spotted a teenage girl removing her bra in the house next door, within that minute there was a good blast and I noticed the light in her room go off and her looking up at it. The explanation to the Poco was well worth the sight of those jugs.


Hey now! 


My old boss once lost grip of the SEC and it went BOOM against the aluminum siding but did not trip. Just a black spot that wasn't there before.


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## God man (Oct 15, 2010)

Hey man I am from Philly to. To everyone here that is not from Philly news flash PECO does not bug in for you, you have to do it yourself. As for you bro I just got done doing a service drop change and bugging in was the easiest part! Just learn to respect electric and not fear it!


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## doubleoh7 (Dec 5, 2009)

I never do it! If that makes me a *****, so be it. I deal with 3 different utilities in my area, and that is their job. I leave about 3' of conductor hanging out of the weatherhead and that is where my responibility ends.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

mikeg_05 said:


> seriously if you do get into the field you will not have to be put in that situation for quite sometime.


 Its the best way to break somebody in. :lol::lol::lol:


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## electricalperson (Jan 11, 2008)

i sometimes like to use my barehands when connecting a service. just because i can. i dont recommend anyone doing it. i have insulated gloves but i just had to do it barehanded. dont flame me and call me dangerous please. 

and dont try that at home.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

electricalperson said:


> i sometimes like to use my barehands when connecting a service. just because i can. i dont recommend anyone doing it. i have insulated gloves but i just had to do it barehanded. dont flame me and call me dangerous please.
> 
> and dont try that at home.



You are dangerous!

~Matt


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

electricalperson said:


> i sometimes like to use my barehands when connecting a service. just because i can. i dont recommend anyone doing it. i have insulated gloves but i just had to do it barehanded. dont flame me and call me dangerous please.
> 
> and dont try that at home.


What's your full name? We need to know so we can have the Darwin award made up. :laughing:


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## electricalperson (Jan 11, 2008)

Jlarson said:


> What's your full name? We need to know so we can have the Darwin award made up. :laughing:


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## electricalperson (Jan 11, 2008)

if you use a fiberglass ladder and your not grounded you will be fine. just becareful. use gloves to be safe.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

electricalperson said:


> if you use a fiberglass ladder and your not grounded you will be fine. just becareful. use gloves to be safe.


What good will gloves do for you if you short both ungrounded conductors? 

Nothing, and that's the point.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

Magnettica said:


> What good will gloves do for you if you short both ungrounded conductors?
> 
> Nothing, and that's the point.


True, the shock usually doesnt kill you.. its the huge arc blast and falling off the roof thatll probably kill you.

~Matt


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

electricalperson said:


>


Hey you said no flaming or calling ya dangerous, you didn't say no Darwin award cracks.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

:no:


Jlarson said:


> Hey you said no flaming or calling ya dangerous, you didn't say no Darwin award cracks.


 :no:


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## electricalperson (Jan 11, 2008)

i will never short out the 2 wires together. because i know what im doing  splice neutral first, move out of the way, strip one black wire, burndy together, rubber tape, repeat for the second wire. 

i keep the ends of the hots taped up until ready to strip and splice


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> What good will gloves do for you if you short both ungrounded conductors?
> 
> Nothing, and that's the point.


 

Don't strip more than one at a time:thumbsup:


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## Safety 1st (Oct 20, 2010)

electricalperson said:


> i sometimes like to use my barehands when connecting a service. just because i can. i dont recommend anyone doing it. i have insulated gloves but i just had to do it barehanded. dont flame me and call me dangerous please.
> 
> and dont try that at home.





electricalperson said:


> i will never short out the 2 wires together. because i know what im doing  splice neutral first, move out of the way, strip one black wire, burndy together, rubber tape, repeat for the second wire.
> 
> i keep the ends of the hots taped up until ready to strip and splice




Don't post something like that and not expect people to call you out. It IS dangerous and stupid. 

Most electricians wake up in the morning confident in their abilities because they "know what they are doing." But, since we're human, accidents and mistakes do happen. Making up this connection without any PPE is highly dangerous and irresponsible.


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## Safety 1st (Oct 20, 2010)

Additionally, OSHA rules would prohibit an employee from making up this connection live. Either the owner of the company would have to do it, or the POCO would have to do it.


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## Safety 1st (Oct 20, 2010)

TOOL_5150 said:


> True, the shock usually doesnt kill you.. its the huge arc blast and falling off the roof thatll probably kill you.
> 
> ~Matt


Depending on the location of the transformer, the available fault current at the end of the triplex could be quite high, though the limiting factor would be the fact that most triplex (at least around here) is #4 or #2. Still, I wouldn't want to find out either way. :no:


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## electricalperson (Jan 11, 2008)

every single electrician i know has tied a service in at least once with their bare hands. thats how it is. its unsafe but thats how we used to do it before we got the gloves. dangers of being an electrician. 

the end. no more


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## Safety 1st (Oct 20, 2010)

electricalperson said:


> every single electrician i know has tied a service in at least once with their bare hands. thats how it is. its unsafe but thats how we used to do it before we got the gloves. dangers of being an electrician.
> 
> the end. no more


I've never "bugged in" a service without gloves. Perhaps every single electrician you know has no regard for safety, as you apparently don't. 

And no, it's not "how it is." Lineman gloves have been around for many decades now and there is no excuse whatsoever to do this task barehanded. 

Doing electrical work is only dangerous for people who ignore basic safety requirements and common sense. Sadly, it sounds as if you fall into that category.


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## I_get_shocked (Apr 6, 2009)

electricalperson said:


> every single electrician i know has tied a service in at least once with their bare hands. thats how it is. its unsafe but thats how we used to do it before we got the gloves. dangers of being an electrician.
> 
> the end. no more


 thats the only way I was taught.. but I still wont do it :no:


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Safety 1st said:


> Additionally, OSHA rules would prohibit an employee from making up this connection live. Either the owner of the company would have to do it, or the POCO would have to do it.


Oh... ok... I'll have the poco come out when I'm good and ready for them.


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## Safety 1st (Oct 20, 2010)

Magnettica said:


> Oh... ok... I'll have the poco come out when I'm good and ready for them.


In some areas, the poco will not allow the electrician to make the connection, and in others, the poco will laugh at you if you ask them to make it. 

But, your comment has nothing to do with the point I was making. OSHA rules forbid an employee from making that connection live, period.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

I've tied in my fair share of services bare handed. After my 70e course I've been afraid of my own shadow. Almost shell shocked. I hear the word "bug" and I duck for cover.


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

Safety 1st said:


> Don't post something like that and not expect people to call you out. It IS dangerous and stupid.
> 
> Most electricians wake up in the morning confident in their abilities because they "know what they are doing." But, since we're human, accidents and mistakes do happen. Making up this connection without any PPE is highly dangerous and irresponsible.


 
Look it is the safety troll :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Safety 1st said:


> In some areas, the poco will not allow the electrician to make the connection, and in others, the poco will laugh at you if you ask them to make it.
> 
> But, your comment has nothing to do with the point I was making. OSHA rules forbid an employee from making that connection live, period.


Who cares? Seriously, why did you join this forum, to lecture us on OSHA rules?


----------



## electricalperson (Jan 11, 2008)

a teacher of mine told me about how they used to tap 500mcm conductors live barehanded standing on cardboard and pallets


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## electricalperson (Jan 11, 2008)

im all about safety and PPE and all that good stuff. I wear it any time its available. i think in order to be an electrician you need to fully respect what we work with. i gained that respect by doing live service tie ins and trusting my own abilities.


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## Safety 1st (Oct 20, 2010)

HackWork said:


> Who cares? Seriously, why did you join this forum, to lecture us on OSHA rules?


You don't care about OSHA rules? 



electricalperson said:


> a teacher of mine told me about how they used to tap 500mcm conductors live barehanded standing on cardboard and pallets


Fantastic. I'm glad they provided such good examples of stupid behavior not to repeat. 



electricalperson said:


> im all about safety and PPE and all that good stuff. I wear it any time its available. i think in order to be an electrician you need to fully respect what we work with. i gained that respect by doing live service tie ins and trusting my own abilities.


No electrician needs to work live to respect electricity. Just watch one arc flash video on YouTube and you will have plenty of respect for it.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

electricalperson said:


> every single electrician i know has tied a service in at least once with their bare hands. thats how it is. its unsafe but thats how we used to do it before we got the gloves. dangers of being an electrician.
> 
> the end. no more


I can't really pretend I haven't done it, I have moved on and just put the gloves on now.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> I can't really pretend I haven't done it, I have moved on and just put the gloves on now.


Gloves??


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Magnettica said:


> What good will gloves do for you if you short both ungrounded conductors?
> 
> Nothing, and that's the point.


Don't short them


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> Gloves??


Yeah ya know the Class 0 insulated ones that we have to wear. :laughing:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> Yeah ya know the Class 0 insulated ones that we have to wear. :laughing:


 Yes i tryed on a pair once at the supply house:laughing:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Safety 1st said:


> Don't post something like that and not expect people to call you out. It IS dangerous and stupid.
> 
> Most electricians wake up in the morning confident in their abilities because they "know what they are doing." But, since we're human, accidents and mistakes do happen. Making up this connection without any PPE is highly dangerous and irresponsible.


In this trade if you never work "live" You will never learn how to react if you make the "Human"mistake and touch somthing live,If you stay in the trade long enough you will and you will not know what to do.



Safety 1st said:


> Additionally, OSHA rules would prohibit an employee from making up this connection live. Either the owner of the company would have to do it, or the POCO would have to do it.


 In mass the POCO does not do the cut over we do it. so if you want to put on gloves and a ppe suit go to the truck and put the suit on when you get back you can go up and tape up the burdys because the the conections will be done. 


Safety 1st said:


> I've never "bugged in" a service without gloves. Perhaps every single electrician you know has no regard for safety, as you apparently don't.
> It's not about safety. It's about becoming an experanced Electrician that Know's how to work safe live or not
> And no, it's not "how it is." Lineman gloves have been around for many decades now and there is no excuse whatsoever to do this task barehanded.
> It's preferance if you want to were gloves go for it.
> ...


 If you make a few years in the trade you will change your gun ho attitude
about this subject


Safety 1st said:


> You don't care about OSHA rules?
> 
> We all do :thumbsup:


----------



## electricalperson (Jan 11, 2008)

Safety 1st said:


> You don't care about OSHA rules?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


so if you put a breaker in a residential panel do you put on the bee suit and disconnect all power? i dont know any electrician that does that. only time i wear the bee suit is if i work on a commercial job with large amp panels. i wont ever work in switchgear live. 

this will make you crap your pants. i put bolt on breakers in a 480v 3 phase panel with NO safety gear. taped up nutdrivers and screwdrivers. will i do that again? nope never. i have insulated tools. do i worry about arc flash? not so much with insulated tools and my megger. i megger the breaker before i slap it in. do i worry about arc flash with switchgear? yes i do. hence the reason i dont work in that live. 

i know what osha says about working live. the real world is different. if you want to wear your bee suit when replacing a receptacle or switch then do it i dont care. i will continue too do what i do until im old and gray and cant do it anymore. i trust myself and my knowledge. i know when its dangerous to work live.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

I crimp live UG feeders w/o gloves. I've had helpers and customers think I'm nuts. The tingle doesn't bother me.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Safety 1st said:


> You don't care about OSHA rules?


Absolutely not. OSHA is yet another government agency that we could do without. It's a revenue stream, that's it.


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## electricalperson (Jan 11, 2008)

HackWork said:


> Absolutely not. OSHA is yet another government agency that we could do without. It's a revenue stream, that's it.


i agree. i mean since osha came into effect a lot less deaths happened on the job. only reason people follow osha is because they are afraid of the massive fines imposed by them. i do agree with some of the rules they have but some of them are just stupid. we had to wear a harness when we were inside of a scissor lift. we had to strap ourselves to the lift. i think if you fall out of the lift your screwed either way. or if the lift tips over your really screwed


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## Safety 1st (Oct 20, 2010)

HARRY304E said:


> In this trade if you never work "live" You will never learn how to react if you make the "Human"mistake and touch somthing live,If you stay in the trade long enough you will and you will not know what to do.
> 
> 
> In mass the POCO does not do the cut over we do it. so if you want to put on gloves and a ppe suit go to the truck and put the suit on when you get back you can go up and tape up the burdys because the the conections will be done.
> ...


I was going to respond to your points one by one but quickly realized that you come from a very "old school" mentality and are not likely to change your mind about working live.


----------



## electricalperson (Jan 11, 2008)

i think electrical work can be done safe without gloves. it just requires a little brain power and skill. read any old electrician handbook and they talk about testing voltage with your hands. i dont do that anymore but ive done it a couple times. if we follow the theory of electricity and trust what we learned over the 100+ years of electricity we will be safe.

ill never rack out a drawout breaker live ill use the robot instead. use common sense. if you think its necessary to wear gloves or a bee suit then do it. 

like i said a little common sense and thinking will keep us safe for the most part.


----------



## Safety 1st (Oct 20, 2010)

electricalperson said:


> i know what osha says about working live. the real world is different. if you want to wear your bee suit when replacing a receptacle or switch then do it i dont care. i will continue too do what i do until im old and gray and cant do it anymore. i trust myself and my knowledge. i know when its dangerous to work live.


Keep doing what you're doing, and the statistics will stay the same, I'm sorry to say.


----------



## Safety 1st (Oct 20, 2010)

HackWork said:


> Absolutely not. OSHA is yet another government agency that we could do without. It's a revenue stream, that's it.


As much as I hate government beauracracies, there has to been some force in place to keep industry in check.


----------



## electricalperson (Jan 11, 2008)

Safety 1st said:


> Keep doing what you're doing, and the statistics will stay the same, I'm sorry to say.


dont worry about me. im an electrician. this is my career. i will be safe since i have common sense and know whats dangerous and what isnt. trust me. 

tying in a live service after a megger test of the meter socket, cables and panel on a fiberglass ladder is perfectly safe if you pay attention and know what your doing.


----------



## Safety 1st (Oct 20, 2010)

electricalperson said:


> dont worry about me. im an electrician. this is my career. i will be safe since i have common sense and know whats dangerous and what isnt. trust me.


Based on some of your statements, I would never trust you. :no:



> tying in a live service after a megger test of the meter socket, cables and panel on a fiberglass ladder is perfectly safe if you pay attention and know what your doing.


As long as the power remains on, it will never be "perfectly safe" and will have an element of danger to it.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

electricalperson said:


> i agree. i mean since osha came into effect a lot less deaths happened on the job. only reason people follow osha is because they are afraid of the massive fines imposed by them. i do agree with some of the rules they have but some of them are just stupid. we had to wear a harness when we were inside of a scissor lift. we had to strap ourselves to the lift. i think if you fall out of the lift your screwed either way. or if the lift tips over your really screwed


If the government mandated that every car had a full roll cage and 5 point harness and everyone who drove a car had to wear a racing suit and helmet, it would cut down on vehicular deaths and injuries by a *HUGE* amount.

But we like convenience more than safety, it's human nature. I don't wear a helmet when driving a car just like I don't pull the meter on a residential house when adding a breaker.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Safety 1st said:


> As much as I hate government beauracracies, there has to been some force in place to keep industry in check.


There is a force in place, it's called Darwinism.


----------



## Safety 1st (Oct 20, 2010)

HackWork said:


> There is a force in place, it's called Darwinism.


I'm not a darwinist so I don't subscribe to that, though I understand what you mean. 

Still, there must be rules and laws in place to protect people who aren't going for a "darwin award" from unscrupulous employers.


----------



## electricalperson (Jan 11, 2008)

Safety 1st said:


> Based on some of your statements, I would never trust you. :no:
> 
> 
> 
> As long as the power remains on, it will never be "perfectly safe" and will have an element of danger to it.


i guess the only thing that matters is if i believe in myself. even if nobody else believes in me. 

story of my life. 

i believe in myself and what im capable of and thats all that matters. im sorry you fear electricity so much. i dont fear it i respect it. i know what electricity can do to the human body. 

im a very smart person and if you dont trust me then im sorry for you. 

for the record i have 1kv rated gloves in my truck and use them quite frequently. i also have 1kv rated tools that i also use a lot. have a great day safety expert


----------



## Safety 1st (Oct 20, 2010)

electricalperson said:


> i guess the only thing that matters is if i believe in myself. even if nobody else believes in me.
> 
> story of my life.
> 
> ...


Your misconception appears to be that as long as you use PPE, it's still ok to work live. It is not ok and against occupational safety rules. Working live is permissible in only the smallest percentage of work we do in the industry, not including troubleshooting.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Safety 1st said:


> Your misconception appears to be that as long as you use PPE, it's still ok to work live. It is not ok and against occupational safety rules. Working live is permissible in only the smallest percentage of work we do in the industry, not including troubleshooting.


Before you tell others what they should or should not be doing, you must post your qualifications and resume.


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## Safety 1st (Oct 20, 2010)

HackWork said:


> Before you tell others what they should or should not be doing, you must post your qualifications and resume.


Sure. I'll get right on it. :laughing:

Seriously though, why is it when anyone takes even the slightest pro-safety stance, they are instantly vilified? I don't get it.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Safety 1st said:


> Sure. I'll get right on it. :laughing:


I take this as a "No, Sir."?


----------



## Safety 1st (Oct 20, 2010)

HackWork said:


> I take this as a "No, Sir."?


I wasn't aware I needed to call you "sir."


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Safety 1st said:


> I wasn't aware I needed to call you "sir."


Sir, not sir. And now you are aware.

Do you take medical advice from a garbage man? Financial advice from a jizz mopper? No? So why would you expect us to take safety advice from you?


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## Safety 1st (Oct 20, 2010)

HackWork said:


> Sir, not sir. And now you are aware.
> 
> Do you take medical advice from a garbage man? Financial advice from a jizz mopper? No? So why would you expect us to take safety advice from you?



I wasn't aware it required advanced training and qualifications to make people aware of some basic OSHA rules that apply to electricians.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Safety 1st said:


> I wasn't aware it required advanced training and qualifications to make people aware of some basic OSHA rules that apply to electricians.


That's the problem, your ignorance.


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## Safety 1st (Oct 20, 2010)

HackWork said:


> That's the problem, your ignorance.


My ignorance?  Like what, for instance? :blink:


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## electricalperson (Jan 11, 2008)

are you an electrician saftey 1st or are you an osha instructor?


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## Safety 1st (Oct 20, 2010)

electricalperson said:


> are you an electrician saftey 1st or are you an osha instructor?


What difference does it make? That has no bearing on the issue of working live whatsoever.


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## electricalperson (Jan 11, 2008)

i just want to know why you think your qualified to tell us how dangerous it is to work live if your not even an electrician. your profile says electrician but is that true? or are you a troll?


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## Safety 1st (Oct 20, 2010)

electricalperson said:


> i just want to know why you think your qualified to tell us how dangerous it is to work live if your not even an electrician. your profile says electrician but is that true? or are you a troll?


I couldn't care less whether you take me seriously or not. Nor do I have to be "qualified" to report to you basic rules that anyone can understand. 

Read the OSHA rules for yourself.


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## electricalperson (Jan 11, 2008)

Safety 1st said:


> I couldn't care less whether you take me seriously or not. Nor do I have to be "qualified" to report to you basic rules that anyone can understand.
> 
> Read the OSHA rules for yourself.


i know the osha rules. i have my osha card in my wallet right now. i just want to know why you are on an electrician website. are you here to teach us or just tell me im wrong and dangerous


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## Safety 1st (Oct 20, 2010)

electricalperson said:


> i know the osha rules. i have my osha card in my wallet right now. i just want to know why you are on an electrician website. are you here to teach us or just tell me im wrong and dangerous


If you know the rules, then why do you and others who replied to the thread like Harry display such a careless attitude towards them? 

I'm simply pointing out mistakes in your thinking, primarily that as long as you wear PPE, it's ok to perform electrical work live. That is not true in the majority of circumstances.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Safety 1st said:


> My ignorance?  Like what, for instance? :blink:


Like the fact that you are not aware it requires advanced training and qualifications to make people aware of some basic OSHA rules that apply to electricians.


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## electricalperson (Jan 11, 2008)

this thread is going nowhere. you obviously are brain washed by osha and are afraid to do your job the way we were taught. electrical is a dangerous trade. electricians need experience working live. end of story. we are electricians not installers. if somebody feels they are qualified to work on something live then so be it. i am a licensed electrician and been doing this for about 10 years. 

i respect this industry and its a huge passion of mine. i always turn power off when i can i will NEVER work on 277 live since one zap can kill you. in a house i may swap a switch out live or a receptacle. 

if you test what your hooking up properly using the modern technology available to us and know what your doing then i feel its safe. 

i am never careless with anything i do. i cannot tell you that enough. if im working in a panel that panel has my attention 100%. i dont care if the queen of england walks in the room and wants my autograph or whatever. if that panel is live and my hands are in it thats all i care about.

you need to understand that in this industry we may have to work live. i will always tie in services live after i megger the service cable and associated equipment. i trust my training. i trust what ive learned from the other members here also. 

explain to me how its dangerous if your on a fiberglass ladder, watching what your doing and your not grounded? im sure you can slip up but if you pay attention you wont. the life of an electrician is not always safe but it pays the bills. 

i am glad you are passionate about safety. if that makes you sleep at night then thats fantastic.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

electricalperson said:


> i respect this industry and its a huge passion of mine. i always turn power off when i can i will NEVER work on 277 live since one zap can kill you. in a house i may swap a switch out live or a receptacle.


You are forgetting 120 volt circuits kill more people in the US than any other voltage.


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## electricalperson (Jan 11, 2008)

Bob Badger said:


> You are forgetting 120 volt circuits kill more people in the US than any other voltage.


i know it kills people. anything can kill. 

i read the book overcurrents and undercurrents and that book explained why a lot of the GFCI codes are in effect. 

when i speak im talking about a qualified person working on the circuit not a home owner or handyman. i always try to shut the circuits off when i work anyway.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> You are forgetting 120 volt circuits kill more people in the US than any other voltage.


Which means absolutely nothing.

Soda machines kill more people than nuclear bombs.

Do we want to list anymore true but completely misleading statistics?


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## Safety 1st (Oct 20, 2010)

HackWork said:


> Like the fact that you are not aware it requires advanced training and qualifications to make people aware of some basic OSHA rules that apply to electricians.



Ok. :blink:


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Safety 1st said:


> Ok. :blink:


Ok, Sir.


----------



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

electricalperson said:


> i know it kills people. anything can kill.
> 
> i read the book overcurrents and undercurrents and that book explained why a lot of the GFCI codes are in effect.
> 
> when i speak im talking about a qualified person working on the circuit not a home owner or handyman. i always try to shut the circuits off when i work anyway.


The only reason to work live is laziness or to show off.


----------



## electricalperson (Jan 11, 2008)

its more dangerous being a police officer than it is being an electrician.

i was thinking about being a police officer but i didnt want to get killed. so i decided to become an electrician.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

electricalperson said:


> its more dangerous being a police officer than it is being an electrician.
> 
> i was thinking about being a police officer but i didnt want to get killed. so i decided to become an electrician.


:laughing:

Fair enough.


----------



## Safety 1st (Oct 20, 2010)

electricalperson said:


> this thread is going nowhere. you obviously are brain washed by osha and are afraid to do your job the way we were taught. electrical is a dangerous trade. electricians need experience working live. end of story.


Wow, you got me pegged. 

Yes, I was taught to work live and to always work live when you can, blah blah blah. Then I learned the truth about occupational safety rules. So if I guess that means I'm brainwashed, there isn't much I can do to help you. 

Though your comment about "electricians need experience working live" is strange. How much experience? Does being shocked count? How about being burned? How do you measure this experience? I'm all ears. :blink:


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## electricalperson (Jan 11, 2008)

Bob Badger said:


> The only reason to work live is laziness or to show off.


9 times out of 10 i shut the power off to replace devices or whatever. im not going to call nstar and have them open the cutouts so i can make a few splices on an insulated ladder.

im not going to pull a meter to slap a breaker in a residential panel

i will shut a 277v/480v panel to put in a bolt in breaker. ive done it live like i said but id rather not. 

i will shut off a transformer to remove the cover to work inside of it.

i will shut off switchgear and even wear an arc flash suit when working in switchgear.

i will wear an arc flash suit when drilling into a panel for a KO. 


im not ******** or careless. 

thanks for caring enough to reply


----------



## Safety 1st (Oct 20, 2010)

electricalperson said:


> when i speak im talking about a qualified person working on the circuit not a home owner or handyman. i always try to shut the circuits off when i work anyway.


Experienced and qualified people die of shock and arc flash burns every year. I guess their experience wasn't enough, right?


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## electricalperson (Jan 11, 2008)

Safety 1st said:


> Wow, you got me pegged.
> 
> Yes, I was taught to work live and to always work live when you can, blah blah blah. Then I learned the truth about occupational safety rules. So if I guess that means I'm brainwashed, there isn't much I can do to help you.
> 
> Though your comment about "electricians need experience working live" is strange. How much experience? Does being shocked count? How about being burned? How do you measure this experience? I'm all ears. :blink:


its experience. thats all it is. experience

i never said to work live whenever you can. this thread is about tying in a service live without gloves.

wear your gloves if you want. i will wear mine when i want. just have a good time doing whatever you want


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> The only reason to work live is* laziness* or to show off.




I'm guilty of this too often. I changed 3 exit lights at a dollar general yesterday hot because they had sooooooo much stuff in front of the panel that I would of had to wait an hour for them to move it all.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

electricalperson said:


> 9 times out of 10 i shut the power off to replace devices or whatever. im not going to call nstar and have them open the cutouts so i can make a few splices on an insulated ladder.
> 
> im not going to pull a meter to slap a breaker in a residential panel
> 
> ...


You are a dinosaur and if the trend of insurance companies driving the bus continuities you will become unemployable or at least be limited to small jobs and fly by night outfits.

We do not have to agree with it, it will happen with or without us.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> The only reason to work live is laziness or to show off.


That's your mentality, we all know you have a big head so it's no wonder you equate doing hot work with showing off, since you always felt like all eyes are on you when you did it, you big stud.

But the rest of us are just out to make a living. Sometimes it's simply not profitable to spend hours finding out where to shut down the power, getting access to that area, then shutting the power down to the required circuit and ensuring that power is not cut to the wrong place. In those instances, a professional is expected to do his job, the same job he did for decades before the nanny state pansy's came and said it's too dangerous.

No matter what anyone says about the dangers of working hot, the ride to work was still more dangerous.


----------



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

electricalperson said:


> its experience. thats all it is. experience


So all electrical accidents happen to the unexperienced?


----------



## electricalperson (Jan 11, 2008)

Bob Badger said:


> You are a dinosaur and if the trend of insurance companies driving the bus continuities you will become unemployable or at least be limited to small jobs and fly by night outfits.
> 
> We do not have to agree with it, it will happen with or without us.


so if i dont wear gloves or a bee suit nobody will hire me? how many small companies offer PPE? not many. i had to supply my own gloves.

for the record i will never work for anybody ever again. im done working for a boss. i work for myself and thats what makes me happy.


----------



## electricalperson (Jan 11, 2008)

Bob Badger said:


> So all electrical accidents happen to the unexperienced?


not at all. they get hurt because they didnt take the proper safety requirements.

like i said in a previous post i take the proper safety requirements when i need too. such as working in a live panel.

i would never rack in a draw out breaker live. i would use the robot machine or shut the switchgear off and do it.


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## Safety 1st (Oct 20, 2010)

electricalperson said:


> not at all. they get hurt because they didnt take the proper safety requirements.


Yeah, like shutting off the power, for instance.


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## electricalperson (Jan 11, 2008)

Safety 1st said:


> Yeah, like shutting off the power, for instance.


now we agree. did you happen to see the post of me shutting off power in panels? i hope so. can we be friends now and hug?:thumbup:


----------



## Safety 1st (Oct 20, 2010)

I wonder if those of you who work live on a regular basis would climb inside of a machine that could slice you in half or grind you to powder, would do so without doing lock out-tag out first?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

electricalperson said:


> so if i dont wear gloves or a bee suit nobody will hire me? how many small companies offer PPE? not many. i had to supply my own gloves.


 All companies have to supply PPE.


> for the record i will never work for anybody ever again. im done working for a boss. i work for myself and thats what makes me happy.


Unless you print money, you always have and always will work for someone. You have a boss on every job.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

electricalperson said:


> not at all. they get hurt because they didnt take the proper safety requirements.


Which you being perfect cannot happen to.

Got it. :thumbsup: :laughing:


----------



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

electricalperson said:


> for the record i will never work for anybody ever again. im done working for a boss. i work for myself and thats what makes me happy.


In that case you are free to do whatever you want, OSHA will not apply.

Of course not having a safety program will keep you out of more and more businesses every year. :whistling2:


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## Safety 1st (Oct 20, 2010)

electricalperson said:


> now we agree. did you happen to see the post of me shutting off power in panels? i hope so. can we be friends now and hug?:thumbup:


It sounds like you shut the power off when you can. In other words, if someone says you have to do it live because it can't be shut down, you work it live. Bad plan. :yes:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Safety 1st said:


> I wonder if those of you who work live on a regular basis would climb inside of a machine that could slice you in half or grind you to powder, would do so without doing lock out-tag out first?


That's not an accurate comparison.

You do understand that it is statistically more dangerous to drive to work than to do hot electrical work on a minimal basis, correct?

So tell me, do you drive to work (or anywhere else) knowing how dangerous it is?


----------



## Safety 1st (Oct 20, 2010)

HackWork said:


> That's not an accurate comparison.
> 
> You do understand that it is statistically more dangerous to drive to work than to do hot electrical work on a minimal basis, correct?
> 
> So tell me, do you drive to work (or anywhere else) knowing how dangerous it is?


How is climbing inside of a machine that could rip you apart (without LOTO) any different than taking the cover off a live 480 volt panel and then bolting a breaker in? You're rolling the dice either way. 

As for the "driving to work" analogy, why do I need to subject myself to risk that I can mitigate (not working live?)


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Safety 1st said:


> How is climbing inside of a machine that could rip you apart (without LOTO) any different than taking the cover off a live 480 volt panel and then bolting a breaker in? You're rolling the dice either way.


 Sure, you are rolling dice, but how many sides do the dice have on each of the examples? 


> As for the "driving to work" analogy, why do I need to subject myself to risk that I can mitigate (not working live?)


I love the way you avoided the question. Please answer it, don't pull a B4T here.


----------



## Safety 1st (Oct 20, 2010)

HackWork said:


> Sure, you are rolling dice, but how many sides do the dice have on each of the examples?


How many do you need? The fact that one and only one mistake could kill me on the spot is all I need. 



> I love the way you avoided the question. Please answer it, don't pull a B4T here.


Yes, of course I drive to work. I divide risk into two categories -risk I can mitigate and risk I cannot mitigate. Again, why would I add additional risk to myself if I can easily avoid it? And even the risk of driving I can mitigate to a certain extent by following traffic laws, keeping my vehicle maintained, and avoiding notoriously dangerous highways or roads.


----------



## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

Safety 1st said:


> How many do you need? The fact that one and only one mistake could kill me on the spot is all I need.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, of course I drive to work. I divide risk into two categories -risk I can mitigate and risk I cannot mitigate. Again, why would I add additional risk to myself if I can easily avoid it? And even the risk of driving I can mitigate to a certain extent by following traffic laws, keeping my vehicle maintained, and avoiding notoriously dangerous highways or roads.


Boy I bet your a HOOT at parties!!!!


----------



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

robnj772 said:


> Boy I bet your a HOOT at parties!!!!


More fun than a urinal.


----------



## Safety 1st (Oct 20, 2010)

robnj772 said:


> Boy I bet your a HOOT at parties!!!!


Do you have anything productive to add to this discussion, or do you just get off on insulting people?


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Safety 1st said:


> How many do you need? The fact that one and only one mistake could kill me on the spot is all I need.


 You can say that for ANYTHING. But the odds of one thing killing you are different that the next.


> Yes, of course I drive to work. I divide risk into two categories -risk I can mitigate and risk I cannot mitigate. Again, why would I add additional risk to myself if I can easily avoid it? And even the risk of driving I can mitigate to a certain extent by following traffic laws, keeping my vehicle maintained, and avoiding notoriously dangerous highways or roads.


Even after doing those things, it is still more dangerous for you to drive to work than do minimal hot work.

So for you to lambaste someone for doing minimal hot work while you do a much more dangerous act is hypocritical.


----------



## Safety 1st (Oct 20, 2010)

HackWork said:


> You can say that for ANYTHING. But the odds of one thing killing you are different that the next.
> Even after doing those things, it is still more dangerous for you to drive to work than do minimal hot work.
> 
> So for you to lambaste someone for doing minimal hot work while you do a much more dangerous act is hypocritical.


Hypocritical? Ok, I can't argue with your superior logic. :laughing:

So fundamentally you're saying I should do live work because driving to work is more dangerous? Why?


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Safety 1st said:


> Hypocritical? Ok, I can't argue with your superior logic. :laughing:


 I see that.


> So fundamentally you're saying I should do live work because driving to work is more dangerous? Why?


No, I am saying that you're an idiot for lecturing someone else for doing something dangerous when you voluntarily do something more dangerous every damn day.


----------



## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

Safety 1st said:


> Do you have anything productive to add to this discussion, or do you just get off on insulting people?


 Are you really an electrician or just some OHSA loving safety troll?

I bug in services hot all the time,and there is no reason that any qualified electrician can't. If your not grounded you won't get injured,you just have to be careful.That is why I make the big bucks.

Cry all you want about your rules and I will cry all the way to the bank.


----------



## Safety 1st (Oct 20, 2010)

HackWork said:


> No, I am saying that you're an idiot for lecturing someone else for doing something dangerous when you voluntarily do something more dangerous every damn day.


Oh, another keyboard commando.  I'm an idiot. That's so nice.


----------



## Safety 1st (Oct 20, 2010)

robnj772 said:


> Are you really an electrician or just some OHSA loving safety troll?
> 
> I bug in services hot all the time,and there is no reason that any qualified electrician can't. If your not grounded you won't get injured,you just have to be careful.That is why I make the big bucks.
> 
> Cry all you want about your rules and I will cry all the way to the bank.


Is there some reason why you have to turn this into bragging about how much money you make? Did I ask about that? And do I care? :no:


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Safety 1st said:


> Oh, another keyboard commando.


We weren't talking about keyboards or commandos. We were talking about the people who you should be taking advice from, and the people who you shouldn't. Up until now, you have strongly proven that you are in the latter category for multiple reasons.


----------



## Safety 1st (Oct 20, 2010)

HackWork said:


> We weren't talking about keyboards or commandos. We were talking about the people who you should be taking advice from, and the people who you shouldn't. Up until now, you have strongly proven that you are in the latter category for multiple reasons.


Hey, call me an idiot, call anything I say into question. Fine by me. But if an electrical accident occurs on a jobsite and a serious injury of fatality occurs, you can guarantee that OSHA will be investigating it and possibly handing out fines.


----------



## electricalperson (Jan 11, 2008)

climbing in a machine without LOTO is not a smart move. like i said i have common sense. i have a LOTO kit inside my truck that i use frequently. you guys make it seem like i have no safety awareness at all. i tie in live services. i sometimes put breakers in residential panels and dont cut the power. 

thats what i do because thats what my job is. 

were really not going anywhere in this thread at all its just arguments so im going to call it quits on replying before it gets locked.


----------



## electricalperson (Jan 11, 2008)

Bob Badger said:


> Which you being perfect cannot happen to.
> 
> Got it. :thumbsup: :laughing:


i never said i was perfect. anything can happen to anyone. i just know that i am safe with what i know. who says i wont fall off of a ladder or something weird happens and i get electrocuted. i know the risks involved in this line of work. i think everybody here knows the risks. 

the way i was taught to tie in a service was with bare hands and a fiber glass ladder. if your not grounded then wheres the danger? i can see touching the neutral by accident but if you move the neutral well enough out of the way how is it going to touch you? how will you get grounded if your on a fiberglass ladder keeping all hands and feet away from the building and neutral? i cant see how that happens. come with me on my next service change and we can experiment.


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

electricalperson said:


> come with me on my next service change and we can experiment.


If you die can I have all the money? :laughing:


----------



## Safety 1st (Oct 20, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> If you die can I have all the money? :laughing:


Just ask him to do the service barehanded.


----------



## electricalperson (Jan 11, 2008)

Jlarson said:


> If you die can I have all the money? :laughing:


sure no problem


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> The only reason to work live is laziness or to show off.


I don't agree with that at all.. :no:

There is no one watching me do a service change and I am NOT being lazy waiting for the POCO to be on site to kill the power.

Sometimes you have to do what you got to do.. driving to the job is more dangerous that working live.. IMO.

BUT.. I draw the line at 120V


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> Sometimes you have to do what you got to do..


How many times have you ever really legitimately needed to work live?

Looking past cutting in new services.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Jlarson said:


> How many times have you ever really legitimately needed to work live?
> 
> Looking past cutting in new services.


Working in a house is never a problem..

Working in a business is ALWAYS a problem when you mention killing the power.

IMO if I can't add circuits safely into a panel with the power on, I should find a different trade.

I will get static over that comment, but that is the way it is.

I am ONLY speaking for myself.. let the bashing begin.. :whistling2:


----------



## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

Black4Truck said:


> BUT.. I draw the line at 120V


Because 120v is safe 


~Matt


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

TOOL_5150 said:


> Because 120v is safe
> 
> 
> ~Matt


I didn't say that.. only safe panel is a dead one.. same as a rattlesnake


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> ..let the bashing begin..


Can do :thumbsup:



Black4Truck said:


> Working in a business is ALWAYS a problem when you mention killing the power.


What they can't get by with out lights for a little while?:laughing: Anything can be shut down, trust me.



Black4Truck said:


> IMO if I can't add circuits safely into a panel with the power on, I should find a different trade.


Yeah maybe, but all you can do is use scotchkote and carlon products, not much of a market for those mad skills outside the electrical trade.


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Safety 1st said:


> I was going to respond to your points one by one but quickly realized that you come from a very "old school" mentality and are not likely to change your mind about working live.


Old school or not if you want to be an electrician ,,,You must understand the danger that comes with it,,
I am all for safety with out question ,,so you must understand that sometimes you will find your self working on stuff live.. If you get zapt you must know how to get out of it or you could get Killed you and i do not want that ever ever ever,, so us guys who are old school can teach you.
do not discount that based on what some safty guy that never worked in the trade tells you,,
ask us we know what is going on in the real world


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

I have to brush up on my multiple quote skills so I can toe to toe with guys like you.. 

It is never the lights.. the computers and phone system is what gets the big thumbs down.. 

Maybe I can go into DATA work using them new EZ CAT 6 devices.. :laughing:


----------



## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

Black4Truck said:


> I didn't say that.. only safe panel is a dead one.. same as a rattlesnake


It was almost implied with the "i draw a line at 120v" remark - But yeah - the only safe panel is a dead panel.

~Matt


----------



## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

Black4Truck said:


> Maybe I can go into DATA work using them new EZ CAT 6 devices.. :laughing:


Make sure the cables are unplugged from the switches before you go using those noob connectors. :thumbsup:

~Matt


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> I have to brush up on my multiple quote skills ...


Yes, you do have a lot of learning, you are seriously computer illiterate. :laughing: 



Black4Truck said:


> ...I can toe to toe with guys like you...


Guys like me, what you mean smart guys? :laughing:



Black4Truck said:


> It is never the lights.. the computers and phone system is what gets the big thumbs down..


Utilities don't seem to have a problem with us taking pump stations and the like off line. 



Black4Truck said:


> Maybe I can go into DATA work using them new EZ CAT 6 devices..


No those are ultra hack and you will burn in heck for using them remember. :laughing:

And yes I am showing off my quoting skills just cause.


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Matt.. is was only a joke.. I have no plans of doing that kind of work in a commercial setting.

A house is the only thing I am interested in making money on.

I would take a few courses in DATA work if I was going to branch out into a different direction.


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Jlarson said:


> Yes, you do have a lot of learning, you are seriously computer illiterate.
> And yes I am showing off my quoting skills just cause.


A computer to me was a way of saving money on stamps.. :laughing:

I hate things that can't be fixed with a pair of pliers and a screwdriver.. 

Oh and those computer skills are very impressive.. :sleeping: :laughing:


----------



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> I don't agree with that at all.


I don't agree with a lot of things. 



> There is no one watching me do a service change


You work alone so that is a no brainer. 




> and I am NOT being lazy waiting for the POCO to be on site to kill the power.


Actually that is exactly what you are doing, you are being to lazy to set up an appointment with the power company and wait for them. (I hate having to work with them as well)



> Sometimes you have to do what you got to do.. driving to the job is more dangerous that working live.. IMO.


Well at least you did not waste anytime saying something stupid. :laughing:

I agree 100% that the drive to the job is dangerous.

But in general there is no way to get to the job without driving, walking or riding a bike, all have risks.

OTH you can shut the power off. 





> BUT.. I draw the line at 120V


Ahh OK, 120 never kills anyone. 



Black4Truck said:


> Working in a house is never a problem..
> 
> Working in a business is ALWAYS a problem when you mention killing the power.


Yeah it can be tough with the small businesses, but more and more large businesses /corporations will not hire ECs that do not follow 70E. 




> IMO if I can't add circuits safely into a panel with the power on, I should find a different trade.


I have been saying you should find a different trade. :laughing:

But really our opinion means nothing, my opinion is that I should be able to drive faster than the speed limit but that does not change the rules.




> let the bashing begin..


No, I think you get off on it too much and do not want to be part of you reaching that 'happy ending'. :no:




Black4Truck said:


> I have to brush up on my multiple quote skills so I can toe to toe with guys like you


Yeah it is a hard to learn skill. :no:


----------



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Here is an example, if you want to work in any building owned by http://www.equityoffice.com/ you cannot work hot. If they catch you working hot you are out.

Another example is Johnson and Johnson, I spent about a 1.5 years working in one of their factories. They would have fired us if we violated the hot work rules. I would run conduits right up to the panel and stop. I would then schedule an off hours shut down to open the panel and enter the conduit.

Not only was I safe I got OT for it. :thumbsup:

The large Supermarket chain we work for has their own safety guy that sneaks around, if he catches us working hot we are out.

Make no mistake, none of the above has been done because they care about us, it is all about the money and how much they could lose if you die on their property.


----------



## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Safety 1st said:


> I wonder if those of you who work live on a regular basis would climb inside of a machine that could slice you in half or grind you to powder, would do so without doing lock out-tag out first?


I'll work live w/ service work but I did shut off the disco to work on an exhaust fan yesterday


----------



## Safety 1st (Oct 20, 2010)

HARRY304E said:


> If you get zapt you must know how to get out of it or you could get Killed you and i do not want that ever ever ever,, so us guys who are old school can teach you.


So tell me how your old school experience would have helped the many electricians who have died of electric shock or arc flash burns?


----------



## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

Safety 1st said:


> So tell me how your old school experience would have helped the many electricians who have died of electric shock or arc flash burns?


 You are perfectly free to pass on your advice. 

As electricians, we know how to respect the possible dangers.

We are NOT irresponsible!!!


----------



## Safety 1st (Oct 20, 2010)

oldtimer said:


> As electricians, we know how to respect the possible dangers.


I'm not sure about that. Whenever this topic comes up, there always seems to be a crowd that gets instantly defensive and starts talking about how much they respect electricity, trust my experience, I know what I'm doing, ad nauseum. 

I'm sure the many electricians who have been killed or injured by live work accidents probably had great respect for electricity and knew what they were doing. Yet, they still had an accident and probably didn't wake up that morning saying "I'd really like to be involved in a shock or arc flash today." 

Old habits die hard, and it's no more apparent than in this thread.


----------



## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

Safety 1st said:


> I'm not sure about that. Whenever this topic comes up, there always seems to be a crowd that gets instantly defensive and starts talking about how much they respect electricity, trust my experience, I know what I'm doing, ad nauseum.
> 
> I'm sure the many electricians who have been killed or injured by live work accidents probably had great respect for electricity and knew what they were doing. Yet, they still had an accident and probably didn't wake up that morning saying "I'd really like to be involved in a shock or arc flash today."
> 
> Old habits die hard, and it's no more apparent than in this thread.


 

I, and many others, are not being defensive. We are merely stating the fact that we do not take unnecessary risks. The statement you quote: "I'd really like to be involved in a shock or arc flash today." Admit it, that is a pretty dumb statement. :blink:

What do you think fellow Sparkies???


----------



## Safety 1st (Oct 20, 2010)

oldtimer said:


> I, and many others, are not being defensive. We are merely stating the fact that we do not take unnecessary risks.


And my point is that any time you work live you are taking an unnecessary risk, because in the vast majority of cases the power can be shut off or a shut down can be arranged. The trouble is, most don't want to take the steps to shut it down because they know, more often than not, they can just risk working it live and "get r done." 



> The statement you quote: "I'd really like to be involved in a shock or arc flash today." Admit it, that is a pretty dumb statement. :blink:


No, I'm not going to admit it's dumb because you isolated one part of my sentence completely out of its context.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Safety 1st said:


> And my point is that any time you work live you are taking an unnecessary risk,


 Your opinion of "unnecessary" is different than other people definition. I think you are taking an unnecessary risk every time you drive your car, I think you should move to a city in which you can take safe transportation to work. THAT is something that will keep you MUCH safer than not doing hot work. But that's not what you want to do, it's not convenient for you, so you'll still take the unnecessary risk of driving in a car yet you'll preach your bullsh1t to people who are taking a much smaller risk by working hot when necessary.


> because in the vast majority of cases the power can be shut off or a shut down can be arranged.


 Anything could be shut down, but the expense will sometimes make it just plain stupid. If you can't knock out a hole in a live panel or cut and cap off a hot wire, you are in the wrong trade. Go work in a nail salon. I can't imagine telling one of the many clients that I worked with that I would have to bring in a crew on a doubletime Sunday and have a shutdown because we have to bring a 3/4" pipe into a panel. We'd be laughed off the job and they would go find a professional electrician to do it. Sure, some companies demand shutdowns as badger said, but in the real world those are few and far between. 

I remember about a year ago walking into the engineering department at the hospital I was working at and telling the head of the electrical department that I wanted to schedule a shutdown for the weekend to land some wires in a panel for the new Cath Labs we built. Everyone laughed, even the damn plumbers. I was only joking around (hoping for some overtime) but it goes to show how it is in the real world. They were good to us, we got a LOT of work in that hospital. We probably wouldn't have if we bothered them for shutdowns for silly things like that, especially since we would need it done just about every week.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

oldtimer said:


> What do you think fellow Sparkies???


I think he doesn't have any credentials nor real world experience to be preaching to us.

Reading propaganda from a bullsh1t government agency does not give you any right to tell others what to do.


----------



## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

oldtimer said:


> I, and many others, are not being defensive. We are merely stating the fact that we do not take unnecessary risks. The statement you quote: "I'd really like to be involved in a shock or arc flash today." Admit it, that is a pretty dumb statement. :blink:
> 
> What do you think fellow Sparkies???



Very dumb statement.


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

I would bet lots of electricians work hot, but are keeping their mouth shut to avoid the ridicule that comes with being honest.

Some people feel comfortable working hot and others don't.. nothing wrong with that.

Personally I avoid opening up the main because sometimes it won't close and then you have a can of worms as to who is responsible.

The customer says it was working fine before I touched it. :blink:

Say it is an old Bryant panel and you can't find a new main breaker.

Now the panel has to be changed and who is going to pay for it???? 

THAT has happened to me more that once and is a real PIA.. :no:


----------



## Safety 1st (Oct 20, 2010)

HackWork said:


> Your opinion of "unnecessary" is different than other people definition. I think you are taking an unnecessary risk every time you drive your car, I think you should move to a city in which you can take safe transportation to work. THAT is something that will keep you MUCH safer than not doing hot work. But that's not what you want to do, it's not convenient for you, so you'll still take the unnecessary risk of driving in a car yet you'll preach your bullsh1t to people who are taking a much smaller risk by working hot when necessary.


From the very start I have talked about mitigating risk that can be mitigated. Does someone who works the kill line in a slaughterhouse go to work with shorts, t-shirt and sandals on? No, of course not because if they did that would be unsafe. Everyone who works in dangerous jobs can and do take steps to mitigate hazards. But you keep using this stupid analogy of driving to work to prove a non-existent point. Wearing a seat belt or not wearing a seat belt could be the difference between life and death in an auto accident. So even when driving a car you take steps to mitigate risk. 




> Anything could be shut down, but the expense will sometimes make it just plain stupid. If you can't knock out a hole in a live panel or cut and cap off a hot wire, you are in the wrong trade. Go work in a nail salon. I can't imagine telling one of the many clients that I worked with that I would have to bring in a crew on a doubletime Sunday and have a shutdown because we have to bring a 3/4" pipe into a panel. We'd be laughed off the job and they would go find a professional electrician to do it. Sure, some companies demand shutdowns as badger said, but in the real world those are few and far between.
> 
> I remember about a year ago walking into the engineering department at the hospital I was working at and telling the head of the electrical department that I wanted to schedule a shutdown for the weekend to land some wires in a panel for the new Cath Labs we built. Everyone laughed, even the damn plumbers. I was only joking around (hoping for some overtime) but it goes to show how it is in the real world. They were good to us, we got a LOT of work in that hospital. We probably wouldn't have if we bothered them for shutdowns for silly things like that, especially since we would need it done just about every week.


Hey, go ahead and work live. It doesn't much bother me. I know what I have to do so stay safe. I get vilified for preaching some simple safety rules. Rock on. I'm done arguing in circles with you.


----------



## Safety 1st (Oct 20, 2010)

Magnettica said:


> Very dumb statement.


Did you even bother reading the whole thing, or are you singling out one part of it like oldtimer did?


----------



## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

Safety 1st said:


> Hey, go ahead and work live. It doesn't much bother me. I know what I have to do so stay safe. I get vilified for preaching some simple safety rules. Rock on. I'm done arguing in circles with you.


Yea right 42 posts just on this thread.Charge your screen name just to become a Safety troll. Your full of chit.


----------



## Safety 1st (Oct 20, 2010)

robnj772 said:


> Yea right 42 posts just on this thread.Charge your screen name just to become a Safety troll. Your full of chit.


When you have something productive and useful to say, we can talk. Until then, go away.


----------



## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

Safety 1st said:


> When you have something productive and useful to say, we can talk. Until then, go away.


 
Peter D?

Hertz?

Dipsy doodle douchbag?

Only a troll that has been banned in the past would camp out in here like this.

I am pretty sure that by this time tomorrow night you will become a "registered member"


----------



## Safety 1st (Oct 20, 2010)

robnj772 said:


> Peter D?
> 
> Hertz?
> 
> ...


Shocking...just shocking. Nothing useful to say other than personal attacks.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Why isn't Safety 1st banned yet?

Can I do it? I'm going to ask Nathan if he can make me an Admin for a couple minutes just to ban this troll. I'll pay good money for that privileged.


----------



## Safety 1st (Oct 20, 2010)

HackWork said:


> Why isn't Safety 1st banned yet?
> 
> Can I do it? I'm going to ask Nathan if he can make me an Admin for a couple minutes just to ban this troll. I'll pay good money for that privileged.


Another country heard from.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Please stop PMing me with sexual invitations.


----------



## Safety 1st (Oct 20, 2010)

HackWork said:


> Please stop PMing me with sexual invitations.



Who is the troll now?


----------



## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

So your Peter D

My work here is done

:sleep1:


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Safety 1st said:


> Who is the troll now?



You don't listen..


----------



## Safety 1st (Oct 20, 2010)

robnj772 said:


> So your Peter D
> 
> My work here is done
> 
> :sleep1:


What work? All you did is crap a thread with insults.


----------



## Safety 1st (Oct 20, 2010)

Black4Truck said:


> You don't listen..


I didn't say anything! He did!


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

robnj772 said:


> So your Peter D
> 
> My work here is done
> 
> :sleep1:


Hey listen here buddy, don't you stain Peter D's good name by calling this idiotic troll out as him.


----------



## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Black4Truck said:


> I would bet lots of electricians work hot, but are keeping their mouth shut to avoid the ridicule that comes with being honest.


Even though you can't see electricity, I do get a thrill out of doing stuff hot.

If I don't know which circuit I am working on, its a good excuse for me not to turn it off, and I don't exactly broadcast what I am up to.

480V is where I draw the line, got knocked on my ass a few times by that, it leaves a welt. My FM was found in the fetal position once from that.


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

miller_elex said:


> ...and I don't exactly broadcast what I am up to...


I always try to keep people in the dark on what I'm up to, that way if something goes wrong I have a better chance of being able to fix it or pawn responsibility off. :laughing:


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> I always try to keep people in the dark ion what I'm up to, that way if something goes wrong I have a better chance of being able to fix it or pawn responsibility off. :laughing:


 :laughing:Thats the way to go.:whistling2::laughing::laughing:


----------



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

robnj772 said:


> Peter D?
> 
> Hertz?
> 
> ...





Safety 1st said:


> Shocking...just shocking. Nothing useful to say other than personal attacks.


But his prediction was dead on.:laughing:


----------



## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

I participated in this same debate on another forum and share the following:

I have bugged in resi services live, both wearing PPE and not (in my younger, bolder days) and state that yes, it is risky, but it does not make me uncomfortable. Would I do a 277/480 service live? Nope, leave that to the POCO. (Since I don't do any commercial work that would be the case in any event.) 

I do both a through visual inspection in the meter can, and break out a meter to check for shorts or grounds on the hot conductors before starting to work. 

I also use the "tap" method, which is to tap the hot conductors to their mates before going for a bolted connection. That one drew laughs from the EC I worked for. 

My biggest fear in doing resi bug ins live is getting pulled off the ladder or roof by the weight of the drop. (I'm pretty skinny and have had some close calls there.) 

The other point I made in the other forum that really stirred the pot was that if it's so unreasonably safe for a "narrowback" (POCO slang for electrician) then what makes it not only standard, but accepted practice for the POCO guys? I have yet to hear of ANY POCO that would allow their crews to pull cutouts (and since most resi here is banked on more than one transformer, it would be several cutouts) which would kill power to several customers, any guy on a crew who pulled that stunt would be fired on the spot. 

The only time I have ever seen (and confirmed by talking to POCO guys here) them kill power to do a service connect is when either working in a tight padmount, or when connecting up a commercial/industrial overhead service. Most of which are on dedicated transformer banks. 

I have changed breakers (stab and bolt-on, max 50 amp, double pole 120/208) live but really don't like to. Those were very rare cases as most of the time I was able to kill the panel (and prefer to work that way anyways.) 

I also took the position that a training program would be a great way to help ensure max safety for bugging in live. 

Let the sparks fly..:whistling2:


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

mxslick said:


> Let the sparks fly..:whistling2:



No sparks to fly, we can all think whatever each of us wants to think and when alone we can get away with doing pretty much what we want.

That does not change the facts


The rules are in place

The rules are not going away

The rules will get tighter

The rules will be enforced more and more, if not by OSHA directly by the bean counters

More and more ECs expect 70 E compliance and will discipline employees who violate it.

More and more customers expect / demand 70 E compliance on their jobs

More and more customers expect / demand a written safety policy to even bid a job.

More and more GCs are looking at ECs 'MOD Rates' which more or less indicates how safe he EC works.

Now, anyone can deny any or all of the above but you will not be getting in the door of the better jobs. Between possible OSHA fines and workers comp insurance rates being both high, and directly related to accident rates companies will have little choice but to comply.

Will all this happen tomorrow? No way.

But a lot has changed in the 25+ years I have been doing this and if you think the pendulum is going to swing the other way you are nuts. :laughing:

So rant, complain, jump up and down but in the end unless you are self employed the decision will be made for you. 

Continue with the discussion. :thumbup:


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## Control Freak (Mar 8, 2008)

If I wasn't a trained electrician the last thing I would do is go near a weather head or any other service entry point! As far as working live to tie in services or to perform any hot work (except fixtures and receptacles lol) I try to be as safe as possible!

We usually use hot taps. No need to skin the wire at all.....I just tighten down the allen key screw with my insulated allen key ( I know the allen head bolt is isolated from the live conductor but that's how i learned ) and its done. Oh.....one other thing. I prefer to insulate the finished splice anyhow with cold shrink or rubber tape and electrical tape works fine


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## woodchuck2 (Sep 18, 2009)

Here the POCO does the bugging although they have been talking of passing it on to the Electrician. For disconnects i have pulled the meter and cut the line but for now i still leave it up to the POCO to reconnect. This way any problems with the connection is their problem, not mine. I have worked on live services before though. Just worked on one the other day where an insulator ripped out of the wall and the neutral was bumping against the crimp of one of the phases in a heavy wind. I taped up the crimp, installed a new insulator, pulled back the wire and re-attached, and retaped both crimps. For some reason the plastic covers were missing from the crimps and luckily there was no damage to the neutral wire.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Black4Truck said:


> I don't agree with that at all.. :no:
> 
> There is no one watching me do a* service change *and I am NOT being lazy waiting for the POCO to be on site to kill the power.
> 
> ...



So you only hook up one leg on a 120V SERVICE?:blink::whistling2:


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## NY ELECTRIC (Sep 27, 2009)

I have and will bug the service live inside a cramped rusting end box with copper split nuts and a pair of channel locks bare handed maybe with some cardboard for the inside of the end box if I see some laying around.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

NY ELECTRIC said:


> I have and will bug the service live inside a cramped rusting end box with copper split nuts and a pair of channel locks bare handed maybe with some cardboard for the inside of the end box if I see some laying around.


Gotta love those single fam end boxes w/ the stubs of leadsheath # 8's. Separates the men from the boys.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> So you only hook up one leg on a 120V SERVICE?:blink::whistling2:



Well yes.. one at a time.. :thumbsup:

Another _Indifferent Member_ here..  said I was being "lazy" for for not making an appointment with the POCO and have them first kill the power and then re-connect it when I'm done.

The POCO supplies us with the same tap connectors they use and it doesn't come with warning labels or instructions.

They have no problem with us touching their equipment and expect us to have the knowledge to do it correctly without bodily harm.

Not even a liability issue in their eyes..


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> Another _Indifferent Member_ here..  said I was being "lazy" for for not making an appointment with the POCO and have them first kill the power and then re-connect it when I'm done.


I siad it, I meant it and it is true.



> The POCO supplies us with the same tap connectors they use and it doesn't come with warning labels or instructions.


Is there a point there?:laughing:

I buy wire all the time and there is no label that says 'don't kill yourself'. 



> They have no problem with us touching their equipment and expect us to have the knowledge to do it correctly without bodily harm.
> 
> 
> Not even a liability issue in their eyes..


And as you are self employed OSHA does not care if you die. So have at it.

If you worked for us you would be fired. :laughing:


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> If you worked for us you would be fired.


So you mean you _would have_ hired B4T??? :blink::laughing:


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Black4Truck said:


> Well yes.. one at a time.. :thumbsup:
> 
> Another _Indifferent Member_ here..  said I was being "lazy" for for not making an appointment with the POCO and have them first kill the power and then re-connect it when I'm done.
> 
> ...


 LIPA is open to lawsuits if anyone tying in a service gets electricuted on the grounds that(a) they give electricians permission and the connectors to do the connection without any "formal" training or certification to perform work on live utility apperatus. If they offered a class and certification requiring all the safety gear and safe handling of their side wiring and someone failed to wear gloves or is sloppy then it's the linemans fault.:whistling2:


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