# Service I did a while ago.



## moman (Apr 15, 2010)

Had to replace an old service that used 3/4" rigid


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

what type of panel is that? I love the N's on the outside...


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

You post pictures, you're gonna get critiqued. Obviously, you are a commercial guy and not a residential guy. 

Why would you install such a large panel for only 7 circuits? Why did you use tandems? You used sticky backs to try to make your grounds and neutrals neat, but it didn't work. You're missing a ko seal. Why the ground bushing? This was a side job, huh?


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Interesting use of red and white tape.

Bond bushing?

1/2 size breakers??

What size main do you have?

I must have some deep rooted issues, I try not to use ty-wraps for some reason.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Nice job. You do realize that you do not have to tape the phase red. I have never seen anyone do that on a single phase panel. I would have used full sized breakers only because I have a thing about the mini breakers---.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

I feel pretty much the same about ty wraps. they look great one time. go in and add or change stuff around and they are just a pia.


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## yucan2 (Jun 9, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Nice job. You do realize that you do not have to tape the phase red. I have never seen anyone do that on a single phase panel. I would have used full sized breakers only because I have a thing about the mini breakers---.


People that don't do much residential, like me, or started in industrial or commercial, again like me, tend to tape phases in whatever scenario. Certainly not a bad thing and can be helpful at times. I would not discourage it.

As for tandems, I shy away from them, primarily because though "legal" in the suburbs they are "illegal" in Chicago. If I keep them off the truck, I won't make a mistake.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

I'll take 210.4(B) for $1000, Alex.


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

480sparky said:


> I'll take 210.4(B) for $1000, Alex.


That would be incorrect. OP is from the bay area I believe and CA is still on the 2005 cycle. I doubt this was permitted anyway.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Daily Double, then : 110.12(A).


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

knowshorts said:


> That would be incorrect. OP is from the bay area I believe and CA is still on the 2005 cycle. I doubt this was permitted anyway.


210.4B is in 2005


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## VersaJoe (Nov 19, 2009)

It's definitley not a horrbile job, however, I do not like the use of tandem breakers in such a large panel, and I DESPISE the use of unistrut on an residential home. That stuff rusts over time and looks like **** after a few years.. just a tidbit.. for resi installs with masts, I have premade pieces of unistrut cut, I use my chop saw to make nice square, uniform cuts, grind the edges smooth, then powder coat them in grey, white and brown, the same colors as the weathproof boxes..if I have a real anal customer, I will powdercoat the strut to a similar color to the house.. They make the install look real nice, and they never rust out. I know I am going to hear the ...."oh that take too much time BS"... but you know what, I do all the extra things most guys don't do and I get paid to do it.....:thumbsup:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

wildleg said:


> 210.4B is in 2005



It goes back to '81. :whistling2:


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

yucan2 said:


> As for tandems, I shy away from them, primarily because though "legal" in the suburbs they are "illegal" in Chicago. If I keep them off the truck, I won't make a mistake.


Chicago sucks.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

I love tandem breakers. I also like the piggy back ones. I can't get enough of them. The only thing that's been buggin me is why they haven't made them even smaller. I figured by now they would have breakers the size of dip switches so you could put 10 of em on a stab.


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## moman (Apr 15, 2010)

knowshorts said:


> That would be incorrect. OP is from the bay area I believe and CA is still on the 2005 cycle. I doubt this was permitted anyway.


If you notice the green tag on the meter/main, it was inspected and passed. The missing ko was later used for another circuit he wanted installed. I prefer more space when it comes to a panel. Allows for future circuits. The tandems I happened to have from another job so I decided why not.


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## moman (Apr 15, 2010)

VersaJoe said:


> It's definitley not a horrbile job, however, I do not like the use of tandem breakers in such a large panel, and I DESPISE the use of unistrut on an residential home. That stuff rusts over time and looks like **** after a few years.. just a tidbit.. for resi installs with masts, I have premade pieces of unistrut cut, I use my chop saw to make nice square, uniform cuts, grind the edges smooth, then powder coat them in grey, white and brown, the same colors as the weathproof boxes..if I have a real anal customer, I will powdercoat the strut to a similar color to the house.. They make the install look real nice, and they never rust out. I know I am going to hear the ...."oh that take too much time BS"... but you know what, I do all the extra things most guys don't do and I get paid to do it.....:thumbsup:


 The strut was used because the HO didn't want me hacking into his moulding.
I used 1 5/8" and I still had to cut into it a little. I agree that strut is an eyesore but in some cases necessary.


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## moman (Apr 15, 2010)

jrannis said:


> Interesting use of red and white tape.
> 
> Bond bushing?
> 
> ...


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

moman said:


> The strut was used because the HO didn't want me hacking into his moulding.
> I used 1 5/8" and I still had to cut into it a little. I agree that strut is an eyesore but in some cases necessary.


That's why they make PVC and bending blankets. I assume it is not allowed there?


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## moman (Apr 15, 2010)

480sparky said:


> I'll take 210.4(B) for $1000, Alex.


The multiwire circuits do not feed any devices that share a common yoke or mounting strap. did not have to use DP breakers.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

I don't work in residential but was wondering if you should have a main breaker.


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## randas (Dec 14, 2008)

Looks like his meter socket has a disconnect.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

randas said:


> Looks like his meter socket has a disconnect.


I guess you are right.


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## moman (Apr 15, 2010)

electricmanscott said:


> That's why they make PVC and bending blankets. I assume it is not allowed there?


thats right. we can only use rigid or imc. on an underground service you can use PVC but you have to transition to rigid aboveground. We cannot use anything smaller than 1 1/4" as a service raceway. Grounding requirements are stricter here than most counties nearby. You have to hit the cold water pipe, bury 2 ground rods and you must bond the gas line on the house side of the meter you can't do it at the water heater like some counties allow.


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## tie003uk (Nov 7, 2009)

nice job but hate the strut


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## Peter D. (May 18, 2010)

That service is an abomination.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

wildleg said:


> I figured by now they would have breakers the size of dip switches so you could put 10 of em on a stab.


I would rather the panels just keep growing so they reach from floor to ceiling. :jester:



electricmanscott said:


> Chicago sucks.


:thumbup:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

moman said:


> The multiwire circuits do not feed any devices that share a common yoke or mounting strap. did not have to use DP breakers.



Wait until you adopt the '08.


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## MaintenanceGeek (May 18, 2010)

*Canadian Electrical Code*

​*4-028 Identification of insulated neutral conductors up to and including No. 2 AWG*
*copper or aluminum*​(1) Except as permitted in Subrules (2), (3), and (4), all insulated neutral conductors up to and including
No. 2 AWG copper or aluminum, and the conductors of flexible cords that are permanently connected to
such neutral conductors, shall be identified by a white or grey covering or by three continuous white stripes
along the entire length of the conductor.
(2) Where conductors of different systems are installed in the same raceway, box, or other type of enclosure
and the identified circuit conductor of one system is coloured by a white or grey covering, each identified
circuit conductor of the other system, if present, shall be provided with a specific identification, and the
identification shall be permitted to be an outer covering of white with an identifiable coloured stripe (not
green) running along the insulation.
(3) The covering of the other conductor or conductors shall show a continuous colour contrasting that of
an identified conductor; however, in the case of those flexible cords where the identified conductor is
identified by a raised longitudinal ridge(s), the other conductors shall have no ridges.
(4) For multi-conductor cable, the insulated neutral conductor shall be permitted to be permanently marked
as the identified conductor by painting or other suitable means at every point where the separate
conductors have been rendered accessible and visible by removal of the outer covering of the cable, and
the painting or other suitable means of marking the identified conductor shall not be permitted to render
illegible the manufacturer’s numbering of the conductor.​


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

Looks just fine. People are complaining about unistrut when there is all that cabling dangling from the building?

I hate tandems too.


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## electro916 (Jan 16, 2009)

BuzzKill said:


> what type of panel is that? I love the N's on the outside...



Thats a GE panel. THQP? I think. I hate those panels and those stupid slimline breakers.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Peter D. said:


> That service is an abomination.


He's BAAAACK!


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## idontknow (Jul 18, 2009)

It's a murray LW2040 I always liked the neutral and ground bar layouts on them.


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## George Stolz (Jan 22, 2009)

110.3(B) - What brand of panel is that?

Whoops, didn't see the above.


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

George Stolz said:


> 110.3(B)


Could you please explain?


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

If it took longer than six hour I hate it, if it took less than 4 I love it.


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## varmit (Apr 19, 2009)

Each end of a service raceway must be bonded. This would explain the grounding bushings. NEC 250.92 

There are other methods, but some AHJ always require grounding bushings.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

varmit said:


> Each end of a service raceway must be bonded. This would explain the grounding bushings. NEC 250.92


The raceway entering the bottom of the panel is not a service raceway, it is a feeder and no additional bonding is required. 

Of course it will do no harm.


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## idontknow (Jul 18, 2009)

George Stolz said:


> 110.3(B) - What brand of panel is that?
> 
> Whoops, didn't see the above.


Are you saying the bonding bushing needs to be used as it's listed?


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## varmit (Apr 19, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> The raceway entering the bottom of the panel is not a service raceway, it is a feeder and no additional bonding is required.
> 
> Of course it will do no harm.


This is the feeder from the service disconnect. So both ends of this conduit would be required to be bonded.


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

varmit said:


> This is the feeder from the service disconnect. So both ends of this conduit would be required to be bonded.


Huh?....


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

varmit said:


> This is the feeder from the service disconnect. So both ends of this conduit would be required to be bonded.


If that meter section has a main, which I'm assuming it does, since the sub panel is MLO, then the conductors are feeders and do not need the bonding bushing. The service conductors and raceway for sake of argument are located in the meter section from the load side of the PGE meter and the main breaker.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

varmit said:


> This is the feeder from the service disconnect. So both ends of this conduit would be required to be bonded.


No, the service conductors stop at the service disconnect which is outside at the meter.

The conduit from the meter to the panel contains a feeder and requires no bonding bushing unless you can show me the code section I am missing.


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## varmit (Apr 19, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> No, the service conductors stop at the service disconnect which is outside at the meter.
> 
> The conduit from the meter to the panel contains a feeder and requires no bonding bushing unless you can show me the code section I am missing.


In this area, 250.96 is enforced if concentric knockouts are used on feeders.

Most of my power work is 480 VAC, so I am accustomed to work under 250.97.

Certainly not meaning to challenge anyone, but as I have posted before, grounding interpretations by the AHJ vary dramatically from place to place.

Kentucky is usually considered backward by most stereotypes, but Northern Kentucky has some very strict code enforcement. Across the river in Ohio, there is some of the most lax code enforcement that I have seen.


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

You in Covington?


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## varmit (Apr 19, 2009)

BuzzKill said:


> You in Covington?


I live about 20 miles south of Covington - out in the country!


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## George Stolz (Jan 22, 2009)

idontknow said:


> Are you saying the bonding bushing needs to be used as it's listed?


Where did you get that out of what I said? I thought he used the wrong breaker for the panel.


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