# Upgrading service equipment.



## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

What the hell is that? What 100A. panel? "Can I upgrade to a 200A. meter with bigger wire"? Is that a trick question?


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Thats a pull box below the meter pan. I'd just tear it out and make a proper 200 upgrade. Of course since you said in your profile you are a journeyman, you know all about how exactly to go about that.......


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## [email protected] (May 27, 2017)

THIS is the current meter/junction box. That was my first reaction too. The pipe at the bottom is going into the basement to a 100 amp panel. I want to install an actual meter box with a disconnect, and pull new service wire to the panel. ( without the sketchy joints ) Right now something just needs to be done about this. ( The rest looks fine ) I'm trying to decide whether to leave the service 100 amps, or install 200 amp service which leaves the option to upgrade the panel later.


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## [email protected] (May 27, 2017)

I do Mac. But every time I've done it, I've replaced everything with the proper amperage. 200a meter with 200a panel and so forth. The company wants everything perfect. So I've never taken the time to learn otherwise. I've done this plenty so it will be correct, and safe. Just not sure of this one thing. And the homeowner is not prepared to replace everything just yet. Just the dangerous crap in the picture.


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

Come off the load side of the new 200 amp meter pan with 2" PVC to the existing panel and refeed using #2 conductors. 

When they decide to upgrade the panel to 200amp, pull out the #2s and replace with 4/0 conductors. 

Upgrade the service grounding for 200 amp.

Check the NEC, your AHJ and local POCO.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

I don't use 2 in PVC for 200 amp service. Even if its a dwelling using 4/0 AL and only three wires, it's over full(USE) then if it's not a dwelling or four wire...2-1/2 inch is what I run.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

flyboy said:


> Come off the load side of the new 200 amp meter pan with 2" PVC to the existing panel and refeed using #2 conductors.
> 
> When they decide to upgrade the panel to 200amp, pull out the #2s and replace with 4/0 conductors.
> 
> ...


Yup that is the most simple soluation there and be done with it.,,


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

backstay said:


> I don't use 2 in PVC for 200 amp service. Even if its a dwelling using 4/0 AL and only three wires, it's over full(USE) then if it's not a dwelling or four wire...2-1/2 inch is what I run.


I don't understand what you are saying here.

I use 2" PVC for 200A all the time, (2) X 4/0 and (1) x 2/0 XHHW or sometimes I will sleeve 4/0 SE cable thru the 2" PVC..


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

HackWork said:


> I don't understand what you are saying here.
> 
> I use 2" PVC for 200A all the time, (2) X 4/0 and (1) x 2/0 XHHW or sometimes I will sleeve 4/0 SE cable thru the 2" PVC..


99% of my services are underground, the wire is USE-RHH-RHW. If you do a wire fill on PVC sch 80, 2 inch is too small even if you are only running 4/0. Add to that a 4th wire or bump to 250 and it's worse.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

backstay said:


> 99% of my services are underground, the wire is USE-RHH-RHW. If you do a wire fill on PVC sch 80, 2 inch is too small even if you are only running 4/0. Add to that a 4th wire or bump to 250 and it's worse.


I see. I don't do much underground, but even without the calcs you did I would probably still bump it up a size just for good measure.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

I actually use 2 inch for 100 amp services. I like the room it gives me when pulling. Really lowers the frustration factor. But I seldom use 2-2-4, most runs are longer or they aren't a dwelling.


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## active1 (Dec 29, 2009)

That thing is a disaster.
Look at the gap on the meter clip, makes for a loose fit.
Cloth rubber conductors, is there any insulation left on the weather head side?
Seems like every old service like this there is no drip loop left maybe because it was re-terminated a few times over the years.
Can't tell if that's even big enough conductors for 100a.
Looks like an old 60a to me, that some clown incorrectly upgraded to 100a.

Do it right or go home.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Pull it out install a meter main and don't worry about the rest til they are ready and have the funds to upgrade.

When price is a concern don't sell them more than they NEED just to make it right.


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## [email protected] (May 27, 2017)

Thanks for the input guys. Active1 I'm ALMOST certain your right about the line side meter wires being 60amp, but they're so weathered and worn it's really hard to tell. While visiting a friend, I noticed this and considered reporting the owner for allowing this obvious fire hazzard to be occupied. Within five minutes I had him convinced to let me fix it. Since then I've upgraded it all to a 200amp service, pushed the old downdrop to the side and it's waiting to be wired.


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## [email protected] (May 27, 2017)

I installed a main breaker and meter base combo and got a little stumped about the grounding. Does the panel side of the combo now become the neutrals first point of entry, get bonded to the ground? If so then the main service panel in the basement will require a ground pulled to it along with the two hots and neutral. Or do I feed this panel as the first service like usual? Three wires. If anyone knows it will help me greatly. The meter side has a ground lug beside the neutral lug and both are attached to a bus bar that leads to the panel side and has another neutral and ground lug attached to it there. Should I ground both and still pull four wires to the panel in the basement? I'd like to ground the panel side of the combo, pull only two hots and a neutral to the basement panel and bond the neutral there. Makes me wish I'd have just installed a regular meter base.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> I installed a main breaker and meter base combo and got a little stumped about the grounding. Does the panel side of the combo now become the neutrals first point of entry, get bonded to the ground? If so then the main service panel in the basement will require a ground pulled to it along with the two hots and neutral. Or do I feed this panel as the first service like usual? Three wires. If anyone knows it will help me greatly. The meter side has a ground lug beside the neutral lug and both are attached to a bus bar that leads to the panel side and has another neutral and ground lug attached to it there. Should I ground both and still pull four wires to the panel in the basement? I'd like to ground the panel side of the combo, pull only two hots and a neutral to the basement panel and bond the neutral there. Makes me wish I'd have just installed a regular meter base.


Sounds like an Eaton to me. 3 wire on the meter side. The extra bonding lug in the meter you can pocket if you like, most poco's don't want to see a gec in the meter side of the equipment. On the main breaker side (customer side) you can bond the neutral and equipment ground conductors and also run the gec into the same busbar. Notice how there is a bus going to the neutral at the meter socket. It's all good. You need a 4 wire feeder cable going to the ''sub panel'' which by the way can now be a main lug only panel since you put the overcurrent protection and disconnection means circuit breaker in the meter main can for the sub panel system.


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## [email protected] (May 27, 2017)

Im trying to figure out why you would replace the #2 copper wires when that size wire is acceptable for 200amp service.


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## [email protected] (May 27, 2017)

This is the combo. It seems like they would have given me a green bonding screw. Especially since there is only one ground lug on the customer side. So I run my ground in from the rods to this lug. And I'm not provided another lug for the ground going to the subpanel. Which is one of the reasons I was thinking the combo might not be considered the first point of entry. I pulled #2 copper for the hots and neutral going to the basement and I've got some left over. I don't see a reason why I couldn't pull four #2s and use one for my ground. Do you? And if I do so, I guess I'd need to add a lug in the customer side of the combo to land the ground. Am I making any sense? Lol


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## [email protected] (May 27, 2017)

The only other option would be to pull from the g.rods to the g.lug on the meter side which would provide all lugs required to pull four wires to the basement panel.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> Im trying to figure out why you would replace the #2 copper wires when that size wire is acceptable for 200amp service.


Wait, what?


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> Im trying to figure out why you would replace the #2 copper wires when that size wire is acceptable for 200amp service.


#2 CU at 75 degree rating is good for 115 amps.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

:no:Journeyman..really?


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> This is the combo. It seems like they would have given me a green bonding screw. Especially since there is only one ground lug on the customer side. So I run my ground in from the rods to this lug. And I'm not provided another lug for the ground going to the subpanel. Which is one of the reasons I was thinking the combo might not be considered the first point of entry. I pulled #2 copper for the hots and neutral going to the basement and I've got some left over. I don't see a reason why I couldn't pull four #2s and use one for my ground. Do you? And if I do so, I guess I'd need to add a lug in the customer side of the combo to land the ground. Am I making any sense? Lol


I hope you are aware of this set up.,,

The main breaker you show us on the photo is 200 amp but you did pull in #2's in there so therefore you will need to install a 100 amp breaker. 

Keep in your mind the #2 is good for 115 amps on copper but I would not touch it with alum verison ( automatic bump down if used that) 

on the other breaker panel where ya pull it down that part you do need full 4 conductors and you have to keep the netural and ground seprated in both panels ( after the combo main/meter box ) and yes you will have to buy ground bussbar if not in there. 

You should have plenty lug connetion at the combo box so basically just treat that as main device.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)




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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

backstay said:


> 99% of my services are underground, the wire is USE-RHH-RHW. If you do a wire fill on PVC sch 80, 2 inch is too small even if you are only running 4/0. Add to that a 4th wire or bump to 250 and it's worse.


The question I have is why are you using USE inside pvc. I have never had an issue pulling 200 amps thru a 2" pvc when using THwn-2 conductors


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> The question I have is why are you using USE inside pvc. I have never had an issue pulling 200 amps thru a 2" pvc when using THwn-2 conductors


SH hasn't carried 4/0 AL in anything else. That may be changing now. They are now showing 4/0 and 2/0 xhhw.


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## [email protected] (May 27, 2017)

My bad guys. I meant 2/0.


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## [email protected] (May 27, 2017)

I'm pulling 3 2/0cu for the two hots and neutral. And #2cu for the ground. I ran 11/2" pvc with an LB which the charts say is fine for three 2/0. But now that I am adding the ground I'm wondering if I should change it to 2".


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> I'm pulling 3 2/0cu for the two hots and neutral. And #2cu for the ground. I ran 11/2" pvc with an LB which the charts say is fine for three 2/0. But now that I am adding the ground I'm wondering if I should change it to 2".


Even in perfect conditions, (3) 2/0's are too much for 1-1/2 (I know they'll fit by code, but it's really pushing it). You should use 2".

Underground, a minimum of 2", maybe 2-1/2" like was discussed on the first page of this thread.


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## [email protected] (May 27, 2017)

This diagram will work. I'm also pulling a #4 bare cu to the main panel for the cold water ground. So I'm puting a #6 bare and #4 bare in the ground bar. #2 ground, and 2/0 neutral in the lugs and bonding all four together in the customer side of the meter main combo. Then separating the grounds, and neutrals in the sub panel. French said to separate the grounds and neutrals in both panels, but mabe I'm reading it wrong. They should be bonded in the first panel.


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## [email protected] (May 27, 2017)

HackWork said:


> [email protected] said:
> 
> 
> > I'm pulling 3 2/0cu for the two hots and neutral. And #2cu for the ground. I ran 11/2" pvc with an LB which the charts say is fine for three 2/0. But now that I am adding the ground I'm wondering if I should change it to 2".
> ...


I think I'm going to change it. I've read that you can downsize the neutral to make more room. . If so what could I downsize it to? I can also use #6 for the ground.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> I'm pulling 3 2/0cu for the two hots and neutral. And #2cu for the ground. I ran 11/2" pvc with an LB which the charts say is fine for three 2/0. But now that I am adding the ground I'm wondering if I should change it to 2".


For that size of conductors you pick you should stay with 2 inch condit it is more easier to find plus have more room to work around with it. 

I would not go any smaller than that what I mention I know 1.5 is fine for three conductor only but once you add the fourth one that go right out of the window. 

I dont know why you choose that size but you will be swearing and cussing pretty fast on that when you try to bring in those numbers of conductor on 1.5 inch conduit. plus the chance of getting damage to the conductors will be very high so I would not recomoned on smaller size.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> I think I'm going to change it. I've read that you can downsize the neutral to make more room. . If so what could I downsize it to? I can also use #6 for the ground.


ya you can drop from 2/0 to 1/0 for netural conductor., but you did not mention if this is copper or alum..


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## Glock23gp (Mar 10, 2014)

I have never ran a smaller conduit than 2" for a 200amp service. 

As stated before the book might say it fits but physically being there and pulling it in is different. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-T337A using Tapatalk


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> This diagram will work. I'm also pulling a #4 bare cu to the main panel for the cold water ground. So I'm puting a #6 bare and #4 bare in the ground bar. #2 ground, and 2/0 neutral in the lugs and bonding all four together in the customer side of the meter main combo. Then separating the grounds, and neutrals in the sub panel. French said to separate the grounds and neutrals in both panels, but mabe I'm reading it wrong. They should be bonded in the first panel.


I just want to make it clear I say to seperated in both panels which it mean the subpanels but not the main combo unit that do bonded together.

after the meter main it will become 4 wire feeder so just make sure you remember it clear because when you bring the feeder to the other panel that is no longer a main panel it become subpanel so just keep it in your mind on the connection metholds. 

I know you may misunderstood it a little but I just want to make sure you read it clear and if any doubts just look at Mech photo what he posted that will take care of that very clear.


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## [email protected] (May 27, 2017)

Got ya. Thanks. I picked up a ground bar for the s.panel, now just gotta get wire for the cold water ground. I originally got #6 bare for it til I read it has to be #4 bare.


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## [email protected] (May 27, 2017)

2/0 cu


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## mbednarik (Oct 10, 2011)

HackWork said:


> I don't understand what you are saying here.
> 
> I use 2" PVC for 200A all the time, (2) X 4/0 and (1) x 2/0 XHHW or sometimes I will sleeve 4/0 SE cable thru the 2" PVC..


You get that 4/0 SE through 2" LBs?:blink:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

mbednarik said:


> You get that 4/0 SE through 2" LBs?:blink:


Yup. I use this baby: http://www.rack-a-tiers.com/product/25/LB-Wire-Guide-Wire-Shoe-Horn


Sometimes I will prefab it:


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

I just mounted and strapped the 2'' conduit and LB and beat the 4/0 SEU in with a lump hammer and a piece of 2x4. :hammer:


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## mbednarik (Oct 10, 2011)

Ah, we don't use much seu, I was picturing ser through there.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

mbednarik said:


> Ah, we don't use much seu, I was picturing ser through there.


With SER you just need a bigger hammer!:thumbsup:


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