# "Whole House" Arc Fault?? Really?



## rexowner

A GC told me today he had seen a "whole house" arc fault breaker
on "Holmes on Homes" this weekend.

Seems like a bad idea to me since an old vacuum or bad drill motor might
trip the whole house.

Do any really exist? I am aware of two-pole 15/20 amp afcis from GE,
C-H, Siemens, but nothing for a whole house or panel.


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## farlsincharge

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that he actually saw whole house surge protection.


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## Dennis Alwon

farlsincharge said:


> I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that he actually saw whole house surge protection.


That be my guess. Anyone who uses a whole house AFCI is insane. Imagine the entire house going down every time there is an issue with a vacuum or something-- no thanks. They said there would be whole house GFCI's when they first came out also-- I have never heard of one.


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## Pete m.

Dennis Alwon said:


> They said there would be whole house GFCI's when they first came out also-- I have never heard of one.


Whole house GFCI protection is crazy for just about the same reasons... any leakage current would be additive and the main would open constantly...

Pete


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## Dennis Alwon

Pete m. said:


> Whole house GFCI protection is crazy for just about the same reasons... any leakage current would be additive and the main would open constantly...
> 
> Pete


 That's right and I think that is why they are not made.


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## rexowner

Thanks to those who responded, esp. for clearing up what the GC probably saw.
Knowing this GC, it is likely he did conflate surge protection with arc fault protection.


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## Vintage Sounds

I think they have whole house GFCI in the UK, where they call it "RCD". Seems ridiculous to me but maybe it's designed differently?

Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


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## oldtimer

rexowner said:


> Thanks to those who responded, esp. for clearing up what the GC probably saw.
> Knowing this GC, it is likely he did conflate surge protection with arc fault protection.



Not trying to be funny, but what does CONFLATE mean??


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## B4T

I think they would first get a CMP to approve a whole house AFCI before trying to market one..

People would never buy it unless it was "code".. same as AFCI circuit breakers are now..


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## B4T

oldtimer said:


> Not trying to be funny, but what does CONFLATE mean??


con·flate verb \kən-ˈflāt\
con·flat·edcon·flat·ing
Definition of CONFLATE
transitive verb
1a : to bring together : fuse b : confuse 
2: to combine (as two readings of a text) into a composite whole 
Examples of CONFLATE
<be careful not to conflate gossip with real news>
<the movie conflates documentary footage and dramatized reenactments so seamlessly and ingeniously that viewers may not know what is real and what is not>


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## Big John

Vintage Sounds said:


> I think they have whole house GFCI in the UK, where they call it "RCD". Seems ridiculous to me but maybe it's designed differently?


 Without putting any effort into actually trying to educate myself, I'm gonna say it's gotta be. A class-A GFCI trips with as little as 4mA of ground current. I'm almost certain the total leakage for the average home would be significantly more than that.

-John


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## Magnettica

rexowner said:


> Thanks to those who responded, esp. for clearing up what the GC probably saw.
> Knowing this GC, it is likely he did conflate surge protection with arc fault protection.


He's a GC, they're not too bright. :whistling2:


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## B4T

Magnettica said:


> He's a GC, they're not too bright. :whistling2:


Depends how you look at it.. they know (5) ways to screw you before the ink dries on the check.. :laughing:


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## chicken steve

Vintage Sounds said:


> I think they have whole house GFCI in the UK, where they call it "RCD". Seems ridiculous to me but maybe it's designed differently?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


Most of Europe has them, set at around 300ma iirc

i think they call them differentials

their systems are safer than ours , in the respect of technology applied

and they _don't_ use afci's!

~CS~


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## Vintage Sounds

chicken steve said:


> Most of Europe has them, set at around 300ma iirc
> 
> i think they call them differentials
> 
> their systems are safer than ours , in the respect of technology applied
> 
> and they _don't_ use afci's!
> 
> ~CS~


I also like how everything is 240v there. Well most places except here really. Regular circuits are 6A which means they can probably get away with something like #18 for general purpose receptacle circuits! Not sure about all 240v countries but in India from what I've observed everyone, residential included, gets 240/415V 3-phase. Most people have 3-phase well pumps. 

We're the only ones stuck on this ridiculously low utilisation voltage. The only exception would be Japan which somehow survives on 100v single phase and 200v 3-phase.


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## Meadow

Vintage Sounds said:


> I also like how everything is 240v there. Well most places except here really. Regular circuits are 6A which means they can probably get away with something like #18 for general purpose receptacle circuits! Not sure about all 240v countries but in India from what I've observed everyone, residential included, gets 240/415V 3-phase. Most people have 3-phase well pumps.
> 
> We're the only ones stuck on this ridiculously low utilisation voltage. The only exception would be Japan which somehow survives on 100v single phase and 200v 3-phase.


We could beat that with 277/480Y. imagine if thats how we fed resis:thumbup: 
In Europe most circuits are around 16 amps so you get double the power. 
Secretly I wouldn't mind 277v outlets.:whistling2:


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## frenchelectrican

chicken steve said:


> Most of Europe has them, set at around 300ma iirc
> 
> i think they call them differentials
> 
> their systems are safer than ours , in the respect of technology applied
> 
> and they _don't_ use afci's!
> 
> ~CS~


Chicken steve.,

To clear up that question you say 300ma you are close but for resdentail customer units ( load centre for ya ) the main RCD is set for 100ma but for larger resdentail or commercal/industrail units they have much higher setting they can go anywhere from 150ma to much as 5 amp ( for 3600 amp service )

No we don't use the AFCI's at the moment but heard some talking going on but nothing in writing at the moment I think the Nomes ( Regulation ) board is watching the North Americiane side to see how far they can kink out the AFCI issue before they can used in European side.

I have heard couple idea how to use the AFCI in European side but noting is panned out at the moment.

Merci,
Marc


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## frenchelectrican

meadow said:


> We could beat that with 277/480Y. imagine if thats how we fed resis:thumbup:
> In Europe most circuits are around 16 amps so you get double the power.
> Secretly I wouldn't mind 277v outlets.:whistling2:


In France the lighting circuits are typically set for 10 amp OCPD while general purpose circuits can be one of the three size 16 , 20 or 24 amps ( depending on the conductor and use ) 

But not all the resdentail can get full three phase system in there depending on the POCO grid layout. 

Some get monophase aka single phase straight 240 volt circuits the CU ( Customer unit ) the largest they can use on single phase is typically 160 amp max unless got blessing from POCO to use the larger one.

Merci,
Marc


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## crosport

In the U.K. is the 240v phase to phase or phase to neutral?


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## Vintage Sounds

crosport said:


> In the U.K. is the 240v phase to phase or phase to neutral?


240v to neutral, 415v line to line


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## HARRY304E

rexowner said:


> A GC told me today he had seen a "whole house" arc fault breaker
> on "Holmes on Homes" this weekend.
> 
> Seems like a bad idea to me since an old vacuum or bad drill motor might
> trip the whole house.
> 
> Do any really exist? I am aware of two-pole 15/20 amp afcis from GE,
> C-H, Siemens, but nothing for a whole house or panel.


Good to see you..............:thumbup::thumbup:


Thankfully that idea will never happen every time a light bulb burns out it will trip..:no:


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## frenchelectrican

crosport said:


> In the U.K. is the 240v phase to phase or phase to neutral?


Majorty of the European area do run 240 volts phase to netural and for phase to phase it will be 415 volts 

And just be aware that we do run on 50 HZ as well so that the other item you have to remember it.

Merci,
Marc


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## BBQ

B4T said:


> I think they would first get a CMP to approve a whole house AFCI before trying to market one..
> 
> People would never buy it unless it was "code".. same as AFCI circuit breakers are now..


Code wise you could install a single main arc fault.

I would not, but we could.



> *210.12 Arc-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection.
> (A) Dwelling Units. *All 120-volt, single phase, 15- and
> 20-ampere branch circuits supplying outlets installed in
> dwelling unit family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms,
> parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sunrooms, recreation
> rooms, closets, hallways, or similar rooms or areas shall
> be protected by a listed arc-fault circuit interrupter,
> combination-type, installed to provide protection of the
> branch circuit.


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## BBQ

chicken steve said:


> their systems are safer than ours , in the respect of technology applied


Lets see some facts to go with that.


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## chicken steve

http://www.advide-efva.com/lang_1/electrical_fires_victims_usa_vs_france.html

~CS~


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## Going_Commando

meadow said:


> We could beat that with 277/480Y. imagine if thats how we fed resis:thumbup:
> In Europe most circuits are around 16 amps so you get double the power.
> Secretly I wouldn't mind 277v outlets.:whistling2:


We could go back to installing 4 circuit main and ranges!


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## BBQ

chicken steve said:


> http://www.advide-efva.com/lang_1/electrical_fires_victims_usa_vs_france.html
> 
> ~CS~


Would you be surprised if I told you I knew what the statistics said?

Have you noticed here in the US we tend to label any fire electrical until it can be proven otherwise. Even buildings without electrical supplies have been ruled as electrical.

Do you also know in many countries the wiring has to be tested at certain intervals? I think England requires mega testing and reports.

Are you up for paying someone to come out and inspect your property for electrical violations and report those to an authority that actually has power? 

Because without a doubt real inspection and enforcement of all homes would drop the death rates down much more than AFCIs being added to just new homes.

Are you up for it?


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## Big John

_They can test the branch circuits when they pry them from my cold, dead hands!

_-John


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## sbrn33

I have thought about using a single 2 pole AFCI and feeding a sub for all my AFCI circuits. seems like this could save $500 and still meet code.
I know trouble shooting would be a bitch though.


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## chicken steve

BBQ said:


> Would you be surprised if I told you I knew what the statistics said?
> 
> 
> 
> I'm always surprised at those bright spots in a sea of complacentcy BBQ
> 
> but in a wider overview, the opportunity of an European electrical infastructure renaissance after WW2 resulted in those stats you speak of
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Have you noticed here in the US we tend to label any fire electrical until it can be proven otherwise. Even buildings without electrical supplies have been ruled as electrical.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Former FF here sir
> 
> got real tired of hearing about how i was a double dipper, etc
> 
> also got real tired of the cheesball forensics utilized , only to be prostituted by nec parasites to be thrown in our trades face
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you also know in many countries the wiring has to be tested at certain intervals? I think England requires mega testing and reports.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> nope, would love hearing more from across the pond....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you up for paying someone to come out and inspect your property for electrical violations and report those to an authority that actually has power?
> 
> Because without a doubt real inspection and enforcement of all homes would drop the death rates down much more than AFCIs being added to just new homes.
> 
> Are you up for it?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> bring it on
> 
> ~CS~
Click to expand...


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## Meadow

Going_Commando said:


> We could go back to installing 4 circuit main and ranges!


I wish it were true though...:jester:


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## frenchelectrican

Chicken Steve:

Just keep your ears on., There will be couple UK sparkies will reply to you as soon they see that message.

I have dealt few UK system but not very often due in France we don't use the Ring circuit at all ( I have heard few UK sparkys are slowly getting rid of that as well ) 

The French Nomes ( Regulations ) is stricter than NEC in few area but otherwise some are parallel with it.

Merci,
Marc


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## chicken steve

frenchelectrican said:


> Chicken Steve:
> 
> Just keep your ears on., There will be couple UK sparkies will reply to you as soon they see that message.
> 
> I have dealt few UK system but not very often due in France we don't use the Ring circuit at all ( I have heard few UK sparkys are slowly getting rid of that as well )
> 
> The French Nomes ( Regulations ) is stricter than NEC in few area but otherwise some are parallel with it.
> 
> Merci,
> Marc


Loud & Clear & thanx Marc

~CS~


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## jakeparr

I thought power over there is so interesting. From what I hear they even have disconnect switches for their "cookers" . And any light switches in a bathroom have to be pull cord?


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## frenchelectrican

jakeparr said:


> I thought power over there is so interesting. From what I hear they even have disconnect switches for their "cookers" . And any light switches in a bathroom have to be pull cord?


 
For France side we do have disconnect switch on the cookers if it is three phase supply but single phase it can go either way depending on the Nomes ( Regulations ) 

For the bathroom luminarie we do allow wall switch the old Nomes they not allowed inside the bathroom but outside of the bathroom door ( not one of our favour pet peeve due so many peoples hit the switch at the wrong time ya know the rest .,, ) 

The UK verison is different so I will let UK guys fill this in.

Merci,
Marc


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## nitro71

BBQ said:


> Because without a doubt real inspection and enforcement of all homes would drop the death rates down much more than AFCIs being added to just new homes.


I"m pretty sure that if people would just quit being morons and have operating smoke alarms the death rates would go way down also.


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## magneticpersona

Remember that the electrical code is the lowest acceptable standard allowed by law. This means that you are allowed to exceed code and make the house even safer should you wish to. I have extensive experience with AFCI and they don't usually cause any problems. In fact they are great for safety.


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## macmikeman

If I just had me a dollar for every time Mike Homes says something incorrect about electrical installs...........


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## user4818

macmikeman said:


> If I just had me a dollar for every time Mike Homes says something incorrect about electrical installs...........


If I just had me a dollar for every time someone here on Electrician Talk says something incorrect about electrical installs............


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## macmikeman

Peter D said:


> If I just had me a dollar for every time someone here on Electrician Talk says something incorrect about electrical installs............


You have an entirely too high post count.... :whistling2:


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## user4818

macmikeman said:


> You have an entirely too high post count.... :whistling2:


There are some here with way more than me. :whistling2:


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## macmikeman

Peter D said:


> There are some here with way more than me. :whistling2:


Yea, but you won't make as much dollars off of them...


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## Going_Commando

macmikeman said:


> Yea, but you won't make as much dollars off of them...


Oh geeze, now we are going to have to hear about PVC splice boxes in the ground again. Why did you have to pop the lid off that one. 


The theory behind arc faults is great, but the execution is terrible. They are a pile of dog sh**, but what can ya do, we are forced to use them.


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## chicken steve

Going_Commando said:


> The theory behind arc faults is great, but the execution is terrible.
> 
> 
> 
> yuppy.....
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paschen's_law
> 
> 
> ~CS~
Click to expand...


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## tates1882

Dennis Alwon said:


> That's right and I think that is why they are not made.


I've seen prints that spec a 800 amp gfi main for a carwash.


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## BBQ

tates1882 said:


> I've seen prints that spec a 800 amp gfi main for a carwash.


That would be GFP not GFCI. 


I don't think a class A GFCI exists in an 800 amp version.


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## freeagnt54

Dennis Alwon said:


> That's right and I think that is why they are not made.


I wouldn't be surprised to see whole house GFP in the next 20 years or so. I really don't think it would be that bad of an idea either. It would keep hacks and maintenance guys from using grounds as their neutral. We already are required to put a neutral at every switch box for the very same reason.


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## magneticpersona

imagine if we see a whole house all on AFCI! that would surely double the price of a service change!


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## Big John

freeagnt54 said:


> I wouldn't be surprised to see whole house GFP in the next 20 years or so. I really don't think it would be that bad of an idea either....


 Only way I'd go quietly is if they simultaneously eliminated AFCIs. I think a reasonably high level of GFP would actually be a pretty good check against many electrical problems.

-John


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## nerdx86

Vintage Sounds said:


> I think they have whole house GFCI in the UK, where they call it "RCD". Seems ridiculous to me but maybe it's designed differently?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


RCD's can even be used on huge industrial feeders.. They have often have significantly allowable higher leakage currents than outlet grade GFCI's. They are designed for a faster disconnect in an arc flash or catastrophic damage event. (Someone driving a forklift into a electrical panel, etc. ) I have personally tripped a large one before in my youth.. 

I would guess a whole house one is the middle option below..

(From Wikipedia)

high sensitivity (HS): 5** – 10 – 30 mA (for direct-contact or life injury protection),
medium sensitivity (MS): 100 – 300 – 500 – 1000 mA (for fire protection),
low sensitivity (LS): 3 – 10 – 30 A (typically for protection of machine)


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## micromind

I think it would be a pretty serious safety hazard to have the main trip when the problem is in a branch circuit, especially at night. 

Plunging the entire building into darkness would almost certainly result in someone tripping and falling resulting in anywhere from a very minor injury to death.


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## Quickservice

Dennis Alwon said:


> That be my guess. * Anyone who uses a whole house AFCI is insane*. Imagine the entire house going down every time there is an issue with a vacuum or something-- no thanks. They said there would be whole house GFCI's when they first came out also-- I have never heard of one.


YES, Absolutely insane!!! I am sick of trying to find what is causing nuisance tripping on AFCI circuits. Please don't tell anyone, but I continue to replace them with regular breakers.


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## Dennis Alwon

This thread is 8 years old


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## kb1jb1

What is the oldest thread available? Can we resurrect it?


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## micromind

Dennis Alwon said:


> This thread is 8 years old


But it's still relevant. Likely even more so given the increased requirements for AFCIs.


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## nerdx86

micromind said:


> But it's still relevant. Likely even more so given the increased requirements for AFCIs.


I actually ran across the thread after a conversion with an industrial GC, customer, etc regarding why a VFD and Combination Motor Protector failed to trip when the output terminals of the MS started arcing due to water... (I'm controls engineering) Trying to explain why there aren't 480V 3ph arc fault breakers on every load is a lot of fun.. (They don't exist because they really wouldn't work with current technology didn't seem to sink in well) I ALMOST offered to put CT's and PT's on their mains, implement a 100KHZ bandpass filter and rectifier into a 0-10V input, and then tell them I'd remove it when they got sick of it tripping all the time!


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## micromind

Quickservice said:


> YES, Absolutely insane!!! I am sick of trying to find what is causing nuisance tripping on AFCI circuits. Please don't tell anyone, but I continue to replace them with regular breakers.


Same here........


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## gpop

micromind said:


> I think it would be a pretty serious safety hazard to have the main trip when the problem is in a branch circuit, especially at night.
> 
> Plunging the entire building into darkness would almost certainly result in someone tripping and falling resulting in anywhere from a very minor injury to death.



Yep had 3 power cuts in the neighborhood this week. If it carries on we are going to have to dig a mass grave to get rid of all the body's. Lucky the factory down the road has e-lights .


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