# GFCI protection in commercial kitchens.



## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

I looked at a job today. Customer needs a U&O. Electrical inspector red tagged.


Customer showed me all receptacles that the inspector wanted GFCI protected. 3 were inside of the kitchen area, but the other 7 were outside of, in the prep area and counter area where the customers are waited on.

This is the same inspector who turned me down on a residential job in which I protected the fridge receptacle from a GFCI receptacle.

Is there another code article that would require me to install GFCI protection outside of the kitchen area of a Pizza place?

I hate pissing in an inspectors cheerios, but this guy may be reading the code wrong.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Its the inspectors call on what the area is.


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

BBQ said:


> Its the inspectors call on what the area is.


I know. I was going to ask where does the kitchen stop and other areas begin.

It seems the kitchen in this place is the whole area behind the counter for this EI.

I am bidding to GFCI all of the receps. I was just curious since I do mainly residential.


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

Oh, and the fire marshall got the customer for not having exterior emergency lights. 150$ a pop in lighting. looks like he will need 3.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

aftershockews said:


> I know. I was going to ask where does the kitchen stop and other areas begin.
> 
> It seems the kitchen in this place is the whole area behind the counter for this EI.
> 
> I am bidding to GFCI all of the receps. I was just curious since I do mainly residential.


Don't forget they have to be accessible, they can't be behind the kitchen equipment.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

BBQ said:


> Don't forget they have to be accessible, they can't be behind the kitchen equipment.


Really?!!? Ive done a couple of commercial kitchens and ive haven't had an inspector say anything about the GFI being behind kitchen equipment.

Regardless of the definition on 'readily accessible', this seems kind of rediculous. Especially if this restraunt is not the original owner, and they just threw all their equipment in wherever it would fit.

Are you saying this from the code book definition of 'readily accessible', or is this something that you have run into with inspectors?


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

210.8 Ground-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection for Personnel. Ground-fault circuit-interruption for personnel shall be provided as required in 210.8(A) through (C). The ground-fault circuit-interrupter shall be installed in a
readily accessible location.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

BBQ said:


> Don't forget they have to be accessible, they can't be behind the kitchen equipment.


Article?


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

Celtic said:


> Article?


 
*210.8 Ground-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection for Personnel. *
​​Ground-fault circuit-interruption for personnel shall be provided as required in 210.8(A) through (C). The ground-fault circuit-interrupter shall be installed in a readily accessible location.​ 

*Accessible, Readily (Readily Accessible). *​
Capable of being reached quickly for operation, renewal, or inspections without requiring those to whom ready access is requisite to climb over or remove obstacles or to resort to portable ladders, and so forth.


If the equipment is on wheels it shouldn't be a big deal​​​​​


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

aftershockews said:


> I looked at a job today. Customer needs a U&O. Electrical inspector red tagged.
> 
> 
> 
> I hate pissing in an inspectors cheerios, but this guy may be reading the code wrong.


That dude needs to work on his writing ! I would be ashamed to write an inspection result that sloppy


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## jproffer (Mar 24, 2007)

manchestersparky said:


> *210.8 Ground-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection for Personnel. *
> Ground-fault circuit-interruption for personnel shall be provided as required in 210.8(A) through (C). The ground-fault circuit-interrupter shall be installed in a readily accessible location.​
> 
> *Accessible, Readily (Readily Accessible). *​
> ...


Wheels or not, it would have to be removed.

BTW, 2014 will add "or tools" to that definition.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

jproffer said:


> Wheels or not, it would have to be removed.


I agree.


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

manchestersparky said:


> That dude needs to work on his writing ! I would be ashamed to write an inspection result that sloppy


He is missing the hand he learned to write with as well as the arm it was attached to.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

aftershockews said:


> He is missing the hand he learned to write with as well as the arm it was attached to.


Geeez! His handwriting is great if thats the case.


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

aftershockews said:


> I know. I was going to ask where does the kitchen stop and other areas begin.
> 
> It seems the kitchen in this place is the whole area behind the counter for this EI.
> 
> I am bidding to GFCI all of the receps. I was just curious since I do mainly residential.


I would agree with the inspector. Behind the counter in a pizza shop is a place I would expect food to be prepaired. No different then behind a bar. You could reasonably expect a blender or fridge or mixer etc to be plugged in that area and it should be gfi protected.

I know there is some drama surrounding a gfi behind a fridge but if it has wheels I wouldn't hesitate to put it behind there if not I would load protect it from another gfi or deadfront as close as I can still being accessible.

I like to keep gfis out of panels in commercial kitchens because it keeps employees out of the panel. Kitchen help has there own very special kind of stupid. It can also be cheaper and I prefer the gfi device as close to the equipment as possible.


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## CTshockhazard (Aug 28, 2009)

Goldagain said:


> Kitchen help has there own very special kind of stupid.


So true!

Best one ever was when one guy decided to hose down the inside of the dimmer panel. :laughing:


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

CTshockhazard said:


> So true!
> 
> Best one ever was when one guy decided to hose down the inside of the dimmer panel. :laughing:


Dude I had the EXACT same thing happen TWICE in the SAME restaurant.


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## CTshockhazard (Aug 28, 2009)

Goldagain said:


> Dude I had the EXACT same thing happen TWICE in the SAME restaurant.


That's too f'n funny! :laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

.....look at differently....he told the customer what he wants and they need....you are there to quote the job as written....you have the perfect bad guy here....here's the price...you get them out of trouble and gain a customer :thumbsup:..


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

I am starting this job in the morning. Figured 1/2 day to be out of there. Got to run 2 dedicated circuits. 1 20 amp, 1 30 amp as well.

Just me now, so I hope I can pull this off. Got 2 other jobs to do afterwards tomorrow.:thumbsup:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

aftershockews said:


> Just me now, so I hope I can pull this off. Got 2 other jobs to do afterwards tomorrow.:thumbsup:


No GFCI required on the 30 amp circuit.


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

BBQ said:


> No GFCI required on the 30 amp circuit.


Both circuits are 220/v. I forgot to mention that.


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

aftershockews said:


> I am starting this job in the morning. Figured 1/2 day to be out of there. Got to run 2 dedicated circuits. 1 20 amp, 1 30 amp as well.
> 
> Just me now, so I hope I can pull this off. Got 2 other jobs to do afterwards tomorrow.:thumbsup:


I got lucky and one of the other jobs canceled. Spent 7 hours on this one but finished and collected. Glad I added lunch money to the bid.


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

Had a hunch it would be bit longer than 4yrs....bx or pipe?


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

4hrs hours lol fifm


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

RGH said:


> Had a hunch it would be bit longer than 4yrs....bx or pipe?


MC.

I wired 2 exterior emergency lights.
Changed out 10 receptacles to GFCI.
Wired 1 interior emergency light.
Wired 1 30 amp 240 volt circuit.
Converted a 3 wire circuit to 1 20 amp 240 volt receptacle. Blanked off the other recept box that was the other leg.

Customer supplied all the GFCI's and raised plates, the receptacles for the new/altered circuits and the interior emergency light.

I supplied the rest.


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

That's a good days work...happy customer means repeat customer;-)....plus commercial rates are higher;-)





From smart phone..


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

BBQ said:


> Don't forget they have to be accessible, they can't be behind the kitchen equipment.





jproffer said:


> Wheels or not, it would have to be removed.


How is this any different from having a panel behind a door?


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Celtic said:


> How is this any different from having a panel behind a door?


Because.


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## jproffer (Mar 24, 2007)

Celtic said:


> How is this any different from having a panel behind a door?


Because panels are allowed to be installed behind access panels (doors, with or without hinges)... and GFCI's are required to be readily accessible.

And if that don't suit you, then because doors are lighter than refrigerators on wheels


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

BBQ said:


> Because.


:blink:





jproffer said:


> Because panels are allowed to be installed behind access panels (doors, with or without hinges)... and GFCI's are required to be readily accessible.


Are you saying panels are not required to readily accessible?



jproffer said:


> And if that don't suit you, then because doors are lighter than refrigerators on wheels


:no:


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## jproffer (Mar 24, 2007)

I'm not saying anything, I'm simply reading it.



> 368.10 Uses Permitted. Busways shall be permitted to be
> installed where they are located in accordance with 368.10(A)
> through (C).
> (A) Exposed. Busways shall be permitted to be located in
> ...


OR...maybe I'm misunderstanding. If I am, by all means, feel free to straighten me out.....no sarcasm intended at all. I'm here to learn like everyone else.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

jproffer said:


> I'm not saying anything, I'm simply reading it.
> 
> 
> > 368.10 Uses Permitted.
> ...


368 is busways....panels are in 408.



jproffer said:


> OR...maybe I'm misunderstanding. If I am, by all means, feel free to straighten me out.....no sarcasm intended at all. I'm here to learn like everyone else.


I'm trying to learn too.

I'd like to know what makes wheels so special as opposed to hinges, a flight of stairs, an escalator, an elevator...etc.
All these things I have mentioned could be viewed to prevent the "readily accessible" requirement....but somehow do not.


I expected some more insight from BBQ.


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## jproffer (Mar 24, 2007)

Ok, I can't find any language that says the panel either does or does not have to be _readily_ accessible. (or even accessible for that matter, but I'm going to say that I had to have just missed it somewhere). If anyone has a specific section/paragraph......

But back to the real question at hand:

I do know that a GFCI has to be _readily_ accessible, meaning, as you know, that you don't have "to climb over or remove obstacles or to resort to portable ladders, and so forth". 

I would argue that whether or not the kitchen equipment is on wheels, if it has to me moved at all, then it has to be "removed" from the path to the GFCI and would therefore, make it not readily accessible.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Celtic said:


> :blink:


If I say 'because' that should be enough. :jester:

Here is the ROP for the change.




> *_______________________________________________________________
> 2-109 Log #3223 NEC-P02 Final Action: Accept in Principle
> (210.8(B))
> _______________________________________________________________
> ...


And now 2-77



> *_______________________________________________________________
> 2-77 Log #1735 NEC-P02 Final Action: Accept in Principle in Part
> (210.8(A)(2))
> _______________________________________________________________
> ...



And finally, 




> *Accessible, Readily (Readily Accessible).* Capable of being
> reached quickly for operation, renewal, or inspections
> without requiring those to whom ready access is requisite
> to climb over *or remove obstacles* or to resort to portable
> ladders, and so forth.


I think it is impossible to argue a refrigerator or stove in front of the GFCI is not an obstacle that would have to be removed. 



> Are you saying panels are not required to readily accessible?


I don't know what he is saying but I am saying a panel has nothing to do with this discussion of GFCIs. :jester:


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

> I don't know what he is saying but I am saying a panel has nothing to do with this discussion of GFCIs.


It does in the sense that it's an option for GFCI as well as LOTO accessibility

~CS~


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

Thanks for posting the ROP...



BBQ said:


> I think it is impossible to argue a refrigerator or stove in front of the GFCI is not an obstacle that would have to be removed.


I understand what you are saying, but there is no specific mention of equipment on wheels that is specifically designed to be moved. 

Commercial kitchens are supposed :whistling2: to be cleaned quite frequently....rolling a stove out of the way should be no more cumbersome than opening a door.


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## Louieb (Mar 19, 2007)

yeah,sure......okay!


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Celtic said:


> Thanks for posting the ROP...



No problem




> I understand what you are saying, but there is no specific mention of equipment on wheels that is specifically designed to be moved.


That is correct, it does not, so it applies to anything that has to be moved.





> rolling a stove out of the way should be no more cumbersome than opening a door.


:laughing:

Bury them if you want but I already know how our inspectors read it.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

BBQ said:


> Don't forget they have to be accessible, they can't be behind the kitchen equipment.





BBQ said:


> Bury them if you want but I already know how our inspectors read it.


Those are two different positions...what the NEC states and what your EI's opinion is.


The OP's EI's may have a different position on this....a GFCI device probably costs less than a GFCI OCPD ~ he would be well advised to confirm with his EI/AHJ.


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## jproffer (Mar 24, 2007)

The NEC says they have to be READILY accessible. You can't have to move anything. Moving a stove and opening a door are 2 wildly different things.

Here's one: If you put a GFCI behind your washing machine, but it's above the highest part of the washing machine....is that allowed? Now then, if you put it behind the washing machine, but now it's lower than the top of the washing machine.....is THAT allowed?


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

In other words, at what point does_ readily accessible_ apply to a means of _disconnect_ jproffer ?

This is where it gets a tad off OP, but the concern applies...

Washer machines, dishwashers, GD, various kitchen equipment ,etc

120,208,240, whatever....

GFCI or no GFCI...

If _(and it's a big if) _the serving OCPD's can be positioned out of the kitchen, but still in sight, there's a world of disco & lotto _(because most of it will be lotto intolerant)_ to be saved

~CS~


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Celtic said:


> Those are two different positions...what the NEC states and what your EI's opinion is.
> 
> 
> The OP's EI's may have a different position on this....a GFCI device probably costs less than a GFCI OCPD ~ he would be well advised to confirm with his EI/AHJ.


I think the only one with a different opinion will be you.

I really don't understand what you are not getting about the requirement itself and once you read the ROP there can be no argument about it.


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

All of the receptacles in this establishment were readily accessible.
And every one of them was on a dedicated circuit.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Good policy AShock...

especially if they aren't quite sure of layout or future growth.....:thumbsup:

~CS~


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

From the IAEI Analysis of Changes, NEC-2011 Part 1




> Chapter Two – Wiring and Protection
> 210.8 Ground-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection for Personnel.
> New: 210.8(A) Dwelling Units. (Readily Accessible Locations)
> 
> ...


http://www.iaei.org/blogpost/890108/158723/Analysis-of-Changes-NEC-2011-Part-1


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Why do we need to worry about _'monthly accessibility' _with the advent of lockout GFCI's BBQ?








~CS~


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## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

The 2011 change to readily accessible GFI's is going to take some getting used to. At the code class I recently attended, the sink base is considered readily accessible.

The problem with this code, IMO, is that readily accessible is dependent on so many things. Is that microwave cart in a homeowner's kitchen now failing my job? Is that microwave cart on wheels a violation? Shelving unit without a back? With a back?

There are other issues I would rather see addressed. Such as one garage GFI feeding all the outside receptacles. The way the code is going (mandating increased costs), I'm not sure I'd be too against requiring a GFI breaker or a point of use GFI device.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

GFCI breaker= $35, GFCI 20A receptacle=$18

GFCI breaker asking only 30" x 36" accessibility

vs. moving, wheeling, whatever heavy fridges, freezers, etc

~CS~


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## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

chicken steve said:


> GFCI breaker= $35, GFCI 20A receptacle=$18
> 
> GFCI breaker asking only 30" x 36" accessibility
> 
> ...


I'm not sure what you are saying Steve.


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

BBQ said:


> From the IAEI Analysis of Changes, NEC-2011 Part 1
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So would you consider a coffee maker, toaster or maybe a blender blocking a GFCI on a counter just accessible?


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Roger123 said:


> So would you consider a coffee maker, toaster or maybe a blender blocking a GFCI on a counter just accessible?


That is what the code currently says. 

No one has claimed it is perfect.


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## Next72969 (Dec 9, 2012)

Deep Cover said:


> I'm not sure what you are saying Steve.


Thats a first


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## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

The one I thought was rather interesting was the receptacle for a drinking fountain. Can't put the GFI in the shroud anymore.


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

BBQ said:


> That is what the code currently says.
> 
> No one has claimed it is perfect.


OK, well maybe the CMP will change their opinions with the new "lockout" GFCIs.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

Roger123 said:


> So would you consider a coffee maker, toaster or maybe a blender blocking a GFCI on a counter just accessible?
> 
> 
> BBQ said:
> ...


No one but yourself :


BBQ said:


> I think the only one with a different opinion will be you.
> 
> I really don't understand what you are not getting about the requirement itself and once you read the ROP there can be no argument about it.


:whistling2:





The items detailed in the IAEI...*The moment a bed, a dresser, or perhaps a copy machine or vending machine is placed in front of a GFCI receptacle, that receptacle just became not readily accessible (accessible, yes, but not readily accessible).*​...are not specifically designed to be moved on regular intervals.

How does a door, elevator, or escalator differ from another piece of equipment with a set of wheels on it?
All are specifically designed to move regularly.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Deep Cover said:


> I'm not sure what you are saying Steve.


cost comparison DeepOne

~CS~


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