# Required lighting outlets:



## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

210.70 (A) 1:

I think I'm covered. No inspection yet.

The job was priced for ceiling fixtures, The customer upgraded to ceiling fans.
So now, All wiring is complete and the customer shows up with fans and no light kits. The bedrooms have no light in them now.

My opinion: 
210.70 calls for: 'At least one wall switched controlled lighting outlet shall be installed in every habitable room and bathroom."

Therefore I have met the requirement. I don't buy fixtures.


Do we agree?


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

leland said:


> 210.70 (A) 1:
> 
> I think I'm covered. No inspection yet.
> 
> ...


As long as the switched outlet is there you are good to go..


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## Executive (Aug 11, 2012)

The code calls for a lighting outlet. The expectation of the AHJ is that a luminaire will be installed at that outlet. Your logic would allow a blank cover at that lighting outlet which would provide as much light as your paddle fan less the light kit.

Is the paddle fan mounted to a listed fan box? If so someone was aware that fans would be installed and light kits would be necessary. If not you have another problem.

Insist that your customer provide light kits or you will likely not pass inspection.


Chris


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Executive said:


> The code calls for a lighting outlet.


I agree, so that is all that is required



> The expectation of the AHJ is that a luminaire will be installed at that outlet.


I don't know what any particular AHJ expects but all they can require is what the code requires.

There are only few NEC sections I know of that actually require 'illumination' 100.26(D), 110.34(D) and 210.71(A)(2). There may be others but the point is 210.70(A)(1) does not, it only requires a lighting outlet.



If it makes you feel better you can rest well knowing the required lighting outlet moved from the ceiling to the bottom of the fan. 





> Your logic would allow a smoke detector at that lighting outlet which would provide as much light as your paddle fan less the light kit.


I mean no disrespect but in my opinion your logic would allow AHJs to make requirements up that do not exist.




> Insist that your customer provide light kits or you will likely not pass inspection.



Insist on something beyond the actual requirements?


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Lighting outlet... "An outlet intended for the direct connection of a lampholder or luminaire". 


IMO the minute you installed that fan you lost your lighting outlet.

If I were the inspector, I'd be the most hated inspector in the state, but that aside I wouldn't pass this installation.


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## Executive (Aug 11, 2012)

Change the op's example from bedroom to bathroom. The code language is similar. Would you provide only a lighting outlet with no luminaire in a bathroom? For that matter, you could wire an entire house and install zero luminaires, inside or outside and by your interpretation bein compliance.

I understand your literal interpretation but I disagree with your conclusion.


Chris


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

I can tell you this, we do switched receptacles quite often. And 100% of the time, I have never, ever, had an inspector want a lamp plugged into them in order to pass. The fan light situation is no different. The contractor has done his job, anything past this point is a changeorder.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> I can tell you this, we do switched receptacles quite often. And 100% of the time, I have never, ever, had an inspector want a lamp plugged into them in order to pass. The fan light situation is no different. The contractor has done his job, anything past this point is a changeorder.


I think it's very different.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

electricmanscott said:


> I think it's very different.


 
Not having a light kit installed and not having a lamp plugged in is no different. The permanent wiring methods have been completed. THe contractor has provided the switched outlet. The homeowner didn't use it.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Not having a light kit installed and not having a lamp plugged in is no different. The permanent wiring methods have been completed. THe contractor has provided the switched outlet. The homeowner didn't use it.


But by definiton the contractor did not provide a switched _lighting_ outlet in this case as required.

I disagree that a switched receptacle and a blanked off ceiling box are the same.


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## Executive (Aug 11, 2012)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Not having a light kit installed and not having a lamp plugged in is no different. The permanent wiring methods have been completed. THe contractor has provided the switched outlet. The homeowner didn't use it.


The two are very different. A Floor or table lamp can be installed by the homeowner. A light kit can not.

Chris


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Executive said:


> Change the op's example from bedroom to bathroom. The code language is similar. Would you provide only a lighting outlet with no luminaire in a bathroom?


Yes if the customer had not purchased a fixture. I would be fine with a blank plate. However I think we would find there are some building codes that require illumination in a bathroom.







> For that matter, you could wire an entire house and install zero luminaires, inside or outside and by your interpretation being compliance.


NEC wise, yes. 

Other code rules may be a factor and certainly customer satisfaction comes into play. 



> I understand your literal interpretation but I disagree with your conclusion.


There is no other proper way to interpret standards adopted into law but to do so literally. To do otherwise is wrong, we cannot add our own personal wishes to the sections.


mcclary's touched on the switched receptacle outlet issue, no illumination required. The code is just requiring a wall switch controlled outlet of some type for the home owner to do with as they wish. 

There is no way an NEC inspector can (legally) require the purchase of a light kit for a fan.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

electricmanscott said:


> Lighting outlet... "An outlet intended for the direct connection of a lampholder or luminaire".
> 
> 
> IMO the minute you installed that fan you lost your lighting outlet.
> ...


What if the OP did not install the fan at said lighting outlet, but rather installed these:









As the EI, you really aren't privileged to know that fans w/o luminaire were purchased...luminaire could be installed pending the HO's selection, shipping delays, etc.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

I agree with the OP's interpretation per NEC however in reality you can have an issue. I would bet most EI will not bat an eye with a fan installed but may if there were a blank plate, however a building inspector may. Not sure what is actually written in the building code but that may require illumination


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## Executive (Aug 11, 2012)

Did the op provide a separate switched circuit for the light independent from the fan? If not, the customer will be playing games with the pull chains and wall switch to get the combination of light and fan that he wants.

Chris


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Celtic said:


> What if the OP did not install the fan at said lighting outlet, but rather installed these:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


When I used to do condos blank plates would always be used in the living and dinning rooms. We often long gone before the units were sold and the builder would only pay for (cheap) bathroom and kitchen fixtures. The bedrooms were all switched receptacles, no ceiling outlets.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

I can tell you this, we have wired a bunch of new houses where sometimes fixtures get back ordered. It has happened several times where we'll put on blank plates to get our inspection. And I'm not talking one or two I'm talking a bunch. As long as it's blanked off, you will not find a code making me install a fixture.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Celtic said:


> What if the OP did not install the fan at said lighting outlet, but rather installed these:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


First, the op did not so it's irrelevant. Second part, you wouldn't get a final inspection passed in that scenario.


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## Executive (Aug 11, 2012)

mcclary's electrical said:


> I can tell you this, we have wired a bunch of new houses where sometimes fixtures get back ordered. It has happened several times where we'll put on blank plates to get our inspection. And I'm not talking one or two I'm talking a bunch. As long as it's blanked off, you will not find a code making me install a fixture.


So you could complete a new house with no fixtures installed? I think the building inspector would have something to say about that. There's no way a certificate of occupancy would be issued without lights.

Chris


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I agree with the OP's interpretation per NEC however in reality you can have an issue. I would bet most EI will not bat an eye with a fan installed but may if there were a blank plate, however a building inspector may. Not sure what is actually written in the building code but that may require illumination


Not sure either but if it's rental property I believe it's a health code issue in this state.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Executive said:


> So you could complete a new house with no fixtures installed? I think the building inspector would have something to say about that. There's no way a certificate of occupancy would be issued without lights.
> 
> Chris


 
You must be crazy, or just talking about something you have no idea about. We've done it plenty.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

electricmanscott said:


> Not sure either but if it's rental property I believe it's a health code issue in this state.


I think that applies to baths and kitchens.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Executive said:


> So you could complete a new house with no fixtures installed? I think the building inspector would have something to say about that. There's no way a certificate of occupancy would be issued without lights.
> 
> Chris


We did not seem to have that issue in Boston, Newton or Cambridge condos.

Blank plates in dinning rooms and living rooms, the fixtures would be purchased when the condo was sold.


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

You make a valid point. Going by the strict wording in the NEC article 210.70 only states a Lighting Outlet be installed.

The definition of lighting outlet in article 100:
Lighting outlet. An outlet intended for the direct connection of a lampholder or luminaire

The definition of Outlet in article 100:
Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment

The kicker is that light fixtures are "luminaires" in the NEC. NO where in the NEC does it state that a Luminaire be installed.

I do believe it is the intent of the code to install a luminaire but that is not what is written if you want to argue strict wording

HUMMMM code change proposal for the 2017???????


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

You could also install one of these and be code compliant..


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> You could also install one of these and be code compliant..


What happened to your thread dude?

I looked for it this morning and it had vanished, I must have slept through some good stuff. :laughing::laughing:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BBQ said:


> What happened to your thread dude?
> 
> I looked for it this morning and it had vanished, I must have slept through some good stuff. :laughing::laughing:


Posting a "turd" pushed it over the cliff..


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

electricmanscott said:


> First, the op did not so it's irrelevant.


Not so fast...


leland said:


> No inspection yet.


The OP still has the option.



electricmanscott said:


> Second part, you wouldn't get a final inspection passed in that scenario.


As both BBQ and I have detailed, it is SOP in many areas to install a blank and the HO/Builder is on the hook for the luminere install.

Blanket statements do not cover everything :no:


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

BBQ said:


> What happened to your thread dude?
> 
> I looked for it this morning and it had vanished, I must have slept through some good stuff. :laughing::laughing:


It was epic and doomed :laughing:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

manchestersparky said:


> I do believe it is the intent of the code to install a luminaire but that is not what is written if you want to argue strict wording


I don't think it is.

I firmly believe they would have required illumination if that is what they wanted.



> *90.1 Purpose.
> (A) Practical Safeguarding.* The purpose of this Code is the practical safeguarding of persons and property from hazards arising from the use of electricity.
> 
> *(B) Adequacy.* This Code contains provisions that are considered necessary for safety. *Compliance therewith results in an installation that is essentially free from hazard but not necessarily efficient, convenient, or adequate for good service* or future expansion of electrical use.
> ...


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

leland said:


> 210.70 (A) 1:
> 
> I think I'm covered. No inspection yet.
> 
> ...


All necessary changes and requirements have been met.
Fan box-3/wire etc. and a control for each device- Fan and light.
HO was going to get fans at a later date and I was to install $1.95 plastic key less. When they realized a return trip to install fans later was a change order, they purchased fans. They did not know to get the light kits and I forgot to mention it.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

electricmanscott said:


> Lighting outlet... "An outlet intended for the direct connection of a lampholder or luminaire".
> 
> 
> 
> If I were the inspector, I'd be the most hated inspector in the state, but that aside I wouldn't pass this installation.





electricmanscott said:


> IMO the minute you installed that fan you lost your lighting outlet.


Ahhhh NO the lighting outlet is still there ,It is the HO that provided a fan without a light kit.



electricmanscott said:


> If I were the inspector, I'd be the most hated inspector in the state, but that aside I wouldn't pass this installation..


And you would be wrong the Electrician in this case provided the required lighting outlet.

It does not say in the NEC that the Electrician must provide an additional lighting outlet because the HO is using the provided lighting outlet for something else.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

HARRY304E said:


> Ahhhh NO the lighting outlet is still there ,It is the HO that provided a fan without a light kit.
> 
> 
> And you would be wrong the Electrician in this case provided the required lighting outlet.
> ...


Well I say you're wrong so there.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

electricmanscott said:


> Well I say you're wrong so there.:tt2:


Fixed it for ya...

no charge

:thumbsup: 

:laughing:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

electricmanscott said:


> Well I say you're wrong so there.


And what section of the code are you siting????:whistling2:


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

This may be a fun inspection. It is in the same town that the EI required sch 80- 4' deep under the residential driveway. 
But I digress..........


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

leland said:


> This may be a fun inspection. It is in the same town that the EI required sch 80- 4' deep under the residential driveway.
> But I digress..........


Nothing like a ball buster for an Electrical Inspector...:no::no:


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

HARRY304E said:


> And what section of the code are you siting????:whistling2:


I'm siting on a chair. :whistling2:


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

BBQ said:


> I don't think it is.
> 
> I firmly believe they would have required illumination if that is what they wanted.



I agree somewhat with that but the NEC isn't known for being crystal clear. :laughing:


Based on this the NEC has no business even requiring a lighting outlet at all....



> 90.1 Purpose.
> (A) Practical Safeguarding. The purpose of this Code is the practical safeguarding of persons and property from hazards arising from the use of electricity.
> 
> (B) Adequacy. This Code contains provisions that are considered necessary for safety. Compliance therewith results in an installation that is essentially free from hazard but not necessarily efficient, convenient, or adequate for good service or future expansion of electrical use.
> ...


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

electricmanscott said:


> I'm siting on a chair. :whistling2:


 

*cite*

_vt_ \ˈsīt\
*cit·ed**cit·ing*




*Definition of CITE*

1
*:* to call upon officially or authoritatively to appear (as before a court) 

2
*:* to quote by way of example, authority, or proof <_cite__s_ several noteworthy authors> 

3
_a_*:* to refer to; _especially_*:* to mention formally in commendation or praise _b_*:* to name in a citation 

4
*:* to bring forward or call to another's attention especially as an example, proof, or precedent <_cite__d_ the weather as a reason for canceling the picnic> 


CITING !


Isn't this EXciting ? :laughing:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

electricmanscott said:


> the NEC isn't known for being crystal clear. :laughing:


True, but in my opinion it is pretty clear here, an outlet is not a luminaire.






> Based on this the NEC has no business even requiring a lighting outlet at all....



I agree with you 100%.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

BBQ said:


> True, but in my opinion it is pretty clear here, an outlet is not a luminaire.


What's your opinion on a switch being an outlet? :jester:


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Peter D said:


> What's your opinion on a switch being an outlet? :jester:


IMO, it is not an outlet


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> IMO, it is not an outlet


Yeah, do you remember that debate? :laughing:


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

Peter D said:


> What's your opinion on a switch being an outlet? :jester:


The switch or the box itself?


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Peter D said:


> What's your opinion on a switch being an outlet? :jester:



My opinion no if it is a simple switch that does not use electricity,but if it uses electricity ...... I say it is possible.


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## electrictim510 (Sep 9, 2008)

electricmanscott said:


> I'm siting on a chair. :whistling2:


*Sitting* to sit.


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## electrictim510 (Sep 9, 2008)

...oops.

After looking it up. Both siting and sitting are defined as close to being the same thing. Never knew. Sitting being an extended version of siting. I guess you really do learn something new every day when you don't graduate HS. :lol:


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

electrictim510 said:


> I guess you really do learn something new every day when you don't graduate HS. :lol:


HS drop outs don't have the market cornered here 

:thumbsup:


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

B4T said:


> Posting a "turd" pushed it over the cliff..


 
You posted that with the first pic


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> You posted that with the first pic


:notworthy: Snap!


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Celtic said:


> HS drop outs don't have the market cornered here
> 
> :thumbsup:


I would have been insulted but I did not quit HS, I was fired. :jester:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> You posted that with the first pic


That coming from someone who thinks having skid marks on their undies is a badge of honor..


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> That coming from someone who thinks having skid marks on their undies is a badge of honor..


:thumbsup:


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

BBQ said:


> True, but in my opinion it is pretty clear here, an outlet is not a luminaire.
> 
> .


No but the requirement is for a "lighting outlet" which has a specific definition. IMO the required lighting outlet was used for the fan. You might argue that if the fan is capable of having a light kit installed then you still have a lighting outlet as required.



electricmanscott said:


> Lighting outlet... "An outlet intended for the direct connection of a lampholder or luminaire".





IMO the intent is to provide the user either lighting or the option for a lamp otherwise why have any requirement at all.


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## Roger (Jul 7, 2007)

An ROP of interest.



> 38 Log #573 NEC-P01
> Final Action: Reject
> (100.Lighting Outlet)
> 
> ...


 With that out of the way I agree that when the fan is installed there s no "Lighting Outlet" 
Roger


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

I guess that clears it up. So to summarize, the NEC is not a design manual except when it is.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

electricmanscott said:


> I guess that clears it up. So to summarize, the NEC is not a design manual except when it is.



:laughing: :thumbsup:


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Roger said:


> An ROP of interest.
> 
> 
> With that out of the way I agree that when the fan is installed there s no "Lighting Outlet"
> Roger


 

Yes, there still is. Right on the bottom of the fan.


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## 347sparky (May 14, 2012)

B4T said:


> Posting a "turd" pushed it over the cliff..


 
Everybody's heard about the turd.

Turd, turd, turd, turd is the word! :clap:


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

347sparky said:


> everybody's heard about the turd.
> 
> Turd, turd, turd, turd is the word! :clap:



lmao


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

I recently wired a residential detached garage. The HO was going to put fluorescent strip lights up. I don't know why but he didn't want them hardwired, he wanted switched receptacles in the ceiling. So I installed 12 receptacles that were controlled by a wall switch.
The EI made me put up one keyless and a wall switch for it. I said but there is already switched outlets in the ceiling.
He said they weren't permanent. His reasoning was, and I quote..."What's to keep the guy from taking down all the fluorescent lights after inspection, then there would be no light? He has to have a permanent light".:blink::001_huh:


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## Executive (Aug 11, 2012)

Roger said:


> An ROP of interest.
> 
> 
> With that out of the way I agree that when the fan is installed there s no "Lighting Outlet"
> Roger


Not so fast. The CMP rejection of a guy from East Nowhere does not fit our example perfectly. I would interpret the CMP rejection as simply stating that a luminaire is not required at every lighting outlet. It makes no mention of dwelling unit, or required lighting outlets. I could interpret this ruling to apply to a room with multiple lighting outlets for a flexible layout, like a conference room or office. The Proposal cited here would require a luminaire at each lighting outlet and the CMP correctly rejected the idea.

This does not address the issue of required dwelling unit lighting outlets and if a luminaire must be installed prior to electrical and building inspection.

I missed quite a discussion while I was out on my boat today. I'm going to try to catch up.


Chris


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

oldtimer said:


> *cite*
> 
> _vt_ \ˈsīt\
> *cit·ed**cit·ing*
> ...


:notworthy::blink::laughing::laughing::whistling2:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

electrictim510 said:


> ...oops.
> 
> After looking it up. Both siting and sitting are defined as close to being the same thing. Never knew. Sitting being an extended version of siting. I guess you really do learn something new every day when you don't graduate HS. :lol:


You learn even more if you never graduated sandbox.:blink::laughing:


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