# Prevailing Wage and Open Shops



## amptech (Sep 21, 2007)

If everyone ran PW jobs like Ft. Wayne, IN I don't know how a contractor could "cheat". You had to turn in daily, weekly and monthly employee log sheets. There was an administrator from the PW board stopping by the jobsite 2-4 times a day to note who was on the job. They also required photo copies of paychecks every payday. When the job was over they debriefed everybody either in person or via phone. It was a paperwork nightmare. Everyone from the PW board was nice but it seemed like you were constantly tripping over one of them.


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## BryanMD (Dec 31, 2007)

Years ago I worked for a service company with a county school contract.
It was looked on as OJT for the newer techs to gain experience on a wide variety of basically all the same equipment, as a steady cash flow generator, and a steady consumer of a common parts we could buy in greater bulk (at lower price).

For the most part that theory worked.
But the lower cost employee doing the bulk of the actual work is critical.


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

I don't like the feeling of loosing a contract to an open shop but I hate it when it's an out of state open shop. Especially when it seems it has to be playing by less than proper rules is how they make money on the job.


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## amptech (Sep 21, 2007)

I don't like the idea of out-of-state contractors doing local tax funded projects either. That's one of the purposes of PW. Leveling the playing field for local contractors on taxpayer funded projects. I think if someone is caught cheating on a PW job they should never be allowed to have anything to do with another PW project ever. Plus they should go to jail.


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## cmec (Feb 11, 2008)

I know where I live lots of maintence in industry and penn dot comes under the residential agreement, Whole package wage and h&w is about $28.00 hour ,If the DOL or the Feds did their wage decision based on that haveing a lower scale for maintence, residential or market recovery it is bringing everyones standard down, And you ever heard of Honeywell or Honeywill THE SCAB DIVISION , They run adds for help in craigs list, you think your competing with them? A large corporation can have seprate ceos and run double Vested, a single person or member who sighns letter of assent A cant , or they tell him have your wife sighn the agreement so he can work with his tools, system is f--ked up.


Another thing on hvac work , whos work is it, fitters gas air and water,tin nockers,electricians even though hvac controlls are taught in school whos the work belong to ?? IS there a master builders agreement in place specifing whos work it is or do we put the gloves on, I am sure if you talk to a ba from any craft he will say its his work. This is usally a gray area.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

randomkiller said:


> Our shop is in the process of bidding hvac and control system maintenance and repair for a large school district in central NJ. In talking around we found out the contractor that has had it for the last three years has the bid so low it doesn't seem possible. The job is to provide two full time mechanics for all repairs, including overtime and Holidays. The current price is @ $60.00 an hour. Unless the DOL has a special type of classification for hvac and control techs for schools I don't see how you could pay anyone OT at that rate and still be in prevailing wage guidelines. It doesn't make sense. The company that currently has it is from Pa, which also is a mystery as to how they work that one out.


Is this considered A construction, or maintainence? Big difference!


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## HighWirey (Sep 17, 2007)

randomkiller said:


> Our shop is in the process of bidding hvac and control system maintenance and repair for a large school district in central NJ. In talking around we found out the contractor that has had it for the last three years has the bid so low it doesn't seem possible. The job is to provide two full time mechanics for all repairs, including overtime and Holidays. The current price is @ $60.00 an hour. Unless the DOL has a special type of classification for hvac and control techs for schools I don't see how you could pay anyone OT at that rate and still be in prevailing wage guidelines. It doesn't make sense. The company that currently has it is from Pa, which also is a mystery as to how they work that one out.





randomkiller said:


> Our shop is in the process of bidding hvac and control system maintenance and repair for a large school district in central NJ. In talking around we found out the contractor that has had it for the last three years has the bid so low it doesn't seem possible. The job is to provide two full time mechanics for all repairs, including overtime and Holidays. The current price is @ $60.00 an hour. Unless the DOL has a special type of classification for hvac and control techs for schools I don't see how you could pay anyone OT at that rate and still be in prevailing wage guidelines. It doesn't make sense. The company that currently has it is from Pa, which also is a mystery as to how they work that one out.


Get over it.

In my orbit, I usually bid against the same five local contractors, some fair and some not so fair, and that occasional out-of-area guy.

At our bid openings there were always many laughs . . . The procurement officer sometimes incredulously asked, are all of you men looking at the set of plans and specs that we issued?

Many times the same bottom feeding EC won the bid, for our material cost only. And occasionally that low guy was an out-of-towner . . .

Go figure RK. Don't count on feeding those babies on that bid due on Monday.

Best Wishes Everyone


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

I did hvac controls for a while and th owner of the company payed low voltage prevailing wage, it was my first experience with public works and let's just say when I figured out what was going on he owed his employee's over 150,000 in back wages. And we got it from him with little fuss.


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

cmec said:


> I know where I live lots of maintence in industry and penn dot comes under the residential agreement, Whole package wage and h&w is about $28.00 hour ,If the DOL or the Feds did their wage decision based on that haveing a lower scale for maintence, residential or market recovery it is bringing everyones standard down, And you ever heard of Honeywell or Honeywill THE SCAB DIVISION , They run adds for help in craigs list, you think your competing with them? A large corporation can have seprate ceos and run double Vested, a single person or member who sighns letter of assent A cant , or they tell him have your wife sighn the agreement so he can work with his tools, system is f--ked up.
> 
> 
> Another thing on hvac work , whos work is it, fitters gas air and water,tin nockers,electricians even though hvac controlls are taught in school whos the work belong to ?? IS there a master builders agreement in place specifing whos work it is or do we put the gloves on, I am sure if you talk to a ba from any craft he will say its his work. This is usally a gray area.


 
After talking to my boss yesterday that is pretty much the situation. The company that has it is a Union company but their rates are similar to residential plumber rates here. Our company has IBEW and UA guys
and most of us work well together. Some of the guys get testy when it comes to control work. You hit it on the head though, there rate is in the $28.00 range. We'll see what happens.


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Is this considered A construction, or maintainence? Big difference!


 
It's maintenance but that rate is still low for that.
For oue company it would be staffed by the best guys to handle the job at hand, I guess the other guy just staffs it with an HVAC tech and tries to pass off the control work to a non-union sub.


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## HighWirey (Sep 17, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Is this considered A construction, or maintainence? Big difference!


Certaintly there is a big difference, however the bidding process is similar, as are those low-balling contractors.

Best Wishes Everyone


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

HighWirey said:


> Certaintly there is a big difference, however the bidding process is similar, as are those low-balling contractors.
> 
> Best Wishes Everyone


 
After finding out all I did about this other company it kills me that their guys drive an hour and a half to get to the job, I doubt they get paid for that. If that isn't taking advantage of those guys for living in a slow market area.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

randomkiller said:


> After finding out all I did about this other company it kills me that their guys drive an hour and a half to get to the job, I doubt they get paid for that. If that isn't taking advantage of those guys for living in a slow market area.


1/2 of NYC electricians live out in the burbs, and yes, some even live in Pennsyl-tukee. I had to lay one off because everytime it snowed he couldn't get to work.

Take a look at I-80. 100,000 cars into NYC every morning. 0 to Pennsylvannia.


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## cmec (Feb 11, 2008)

randomkiller said:


> After talking to my boss yesterday that is pretty much the situation. The company that has it is a Union company but their rates are similar to residential plumber rates here. Our company has IBEW and UA guys
> and most of us work well together. Some of the guys get testy when it comes to control work. You hit it on the head though, there rate is in the $28.00 range. We'll see what happens.


FIRST let me say I did an apprenticeship and I am a licensed contractor and capisci and appreciate what you are saying BUT this isnt an issue with open shop the IBEW is keeping the price down!

If I were you I dont think I would make an issue of this ,or your boss might ask you to work for that rate , Your brothers are! 

You need to look at this from a bean counters point of view, No one wants employees, municipal govt,school districts Industries, state govt, etc, So if they can sub the work for their cost,get what they want for the same price with a phone call, and not have to put up with, payroll ,w comp,unemployment comp, unions ,govt entities etc, & some employees additudes, Its a no brainer. 


Then the IBEW is right there to give them help for less than inside scale they even have a loophole so they can run double vested ,but members or individuals cant!


ANY time you have differnt scales and guys know it it creates hate and discontent between all people involved , I saw this in a rw shop where I started if somone did commercial work and got a higher rate everybody else was mad . Whats the answer to this problem ??


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## HighWirey (Sep 17, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> 1/2 of NYC electricians live out in the burbs, and yes, some even live in Pennsyl-tukee. I had to lay one off because everytime it snowed he couldn't get to work.
> Take a look at I-80. 100,000 cars into NYC every morning. 0 to Pennsylvannia.


Whats wrong with Pennsylvania?

Just Work'in For That Free Hat . . .


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

cmec said:


> FIRST let me say I did an apprenticeship and I am a licensed contractor and capisci and appreciate what you are saying BUT this isnt an issue with open shop the IBEW is keeping the price down!
> 
> If I were you I dont think I would make an issue of this ,or your boss might ask you to work for that rate , Your brothers are!
> 
> ...


 
Well in our shop the UA guys like mech-dvr get service tech rate and they can do low voltage and pneumatic control jobs but aren't supposed to do line voltage. The IBEW guys like myself can do line, low, and pneumatic jobs. We all share in programming and that type of thing. But, when you get one of the old farts out on a job and one of the UA guys is working on some line voltage for a repair, you get that "their taking our work" bs, even though we are all the same company. 

The problem with these other guys coming in from PA, is that because their Union they don't have to pay prevailing wage, but at the same time their rate is much lower than our UA guys wage. And you know they aren't giving their guys 3 hours a day for travel.


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

HighWirey said:


> Whats wrong with Pennsylvania?
> 
> Just Work'in For That Free Hat . . .


 
Lower pay scales, lack of work, no statewide licensing, etc, etc


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## cmec (Feb 11, 2008)

I am missing somepthing here , I do davis bacon in 5 states ,when I bid jobs they give me the wage decision its part of the contract documents, the wages are set by the DOL, we turn in cirtifed payroll reports, anyone can ask to see them ,so how can they not pay the rate ,There have been cases where I wont bid the job because the rate is to low and wouldnt consider leaving home .


I agree pa is screwed up has been for a long time.


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

cmec said:


> I am missing somepthing here , I do davis bacon in 5 states ,when I bid jobs they give me the wage decision, the wages are set by the DOL, we turn in cirtifed payroll reports, anyone can ask to see them ,so how can they not pay the rate ,There have been cases where I wont bid the job because the rate is to low and wouldnt consider leaving home .


 
My boss says as long as they are a union shop and make their home rate they can come to NJ and work the job at their scale, if they weren't union they would have to pay NJ prevailing. That's my issue with this.


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## cmec (Feb 11, 2008)

randomkiller said:


> My boss says as long as they are a union shop and make their home rate they can come to NJ and work the job at their scale, if they weren't union they would have to pay NJ prevailing. That's my issue with this.


Maybee under IBEW portibility they can, But not davis bacon, I dont know what New Jersey prevailing scale law says .The travel time comes under a differnt federal law, You dont have to pay for travel the job in the am if you tell the guys to report to the job at starting time, but if you tell them go from their first job and drive 1.5 hrs to the second one you have to pay them for that time,and not for the return home.


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

cmec said:


> Maybee under IBEW portibility they can, But not davis bacon, I dont know what New Jersey prevailing scale law says .The travel time comes under a differnt federal law, You dont have to pay for travel the job in the am if you tell the guys to report to the job at starting time, but if you tell them go from their first job and drive 1.5 hrs to the second one you have to pay them for that time,and not for the return home.


True but this is more they keep a van onsite and you report there and stay on their sites.


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## HighWirey (Sep 17, 2007)

cmec said:


> Maybee under IBEW portibility they can, But not davis bacon, I dont know what New Jersey prevailing scale law says .The travel time comes under a differnt federal law, You dont have to pay for travel the job in the am if you tell the guys to report to the job at starting time, but if you tell them go from their first job and drive 1.5 hrs to the second one you have to pay them for that time,and not for the return home.


Me too. I thought Davis-Bacon scale was Davis-Bacon scale, portability not withstanding.

Work'in For That Free Tee . . .


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

I just spoke to the guy that went to the bid opening. The low bid was $19k, the highest $185k. The schools consulting engineer told them the range would be $110k-$120k. They haven't awarded the contract yet, they are having meetings with some of the bidders. Carrier (non-union in NJ) came in under $60k.


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## headrec (Feb 25, 2008)

It is sad the lengths people will go to to keep the ball moving. I am realistic (union does not rule all IMO) but I do feel like they (electricians or any unionized trade)will let sh*t slide to the extent they are slowly killing themselves off. Once again IMO although Union (in some peoples eyes) sucks sometimes they are trying to look out for the better in many ways. Not necessarily a reason to go die hard in agreeing with the cause but a reason to take a step back and realize they are there for a reason.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

headrec said:


> It is sad the lengths people will go to to keep the ball moving. I am realistic (union does not rule all IMO) but I do feel like they (electricians or any unionized trade)will let sh*t slide to the extent they are slowly killing themselves off. Once again IMO although Union (in some peoples eyes) sucks sometimes they are trying to look out for the better in many ways. Not necessarily a reason to go die hard in agreeing with the cause but a reason to take a step back and realize they are there for a reason.


Well said!


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## HighWirey (Sep 17, 2007)

randomkiller said:


> I just spoke to the guy that went to the bid opening. The low bid was $19k, the highest $185k. The schools consulting engineer told them the range would be $110k-$120k. They haven't awarded the contract yet, they are having meetings with some of the bidders. Carrier (non-union in NJ) came in under $60k.


That is quite a spread. Someone posted that in other parts of the world buyers award contracts based on the average of all of the bids. The contractor submitting a bid nearest the average was awarded. I haven't thought it through, but on the surface that sounds like good idea. Cuts out the riff-raff, and the buyer gets a project that can be built for the awarded price. 

Work'in For That Free Tee . . .


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

HighWirey said:


> That is quite a spread. Someone posted that in other parts of the world buyers award contracts based on the average of all of the bids. The contractor submitting a bid nearest the average was awarded. I haven't thought it through, but on the surface that sounds like good idea. Cuts out the riff-raff, and the buyer gets a project that can be built for the awarded price.
> 
> Work'in For That Free Tee . . .


That could work. They are trying to do something like that. Their term is lowest responsible bid.


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## HighWirey (Sep 17, 2007)

randomkiller said:


> I just spoke to the guy that went to the bid opening. The low bid was $19k, the highest $185k. The schools consulting engineer told them the range would be $110k-$120k. They haven't awarded the contract yet, they are having meetings with some of the bidders. Carrier (non-union in NJ) came in under $60k.


Must be getting soft here. I forgot to ask the biggie question, where did your firm land in that fiasco? Don't be bashfull, been high and done that, and walked away shaking my head.

Work'in For That Free Tee . . .


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

HighWirey said:


> Must be getting soft here. I forgot to ask the biggie question, where did your firm land in that fiasco? Don't be bashfull, been high and done that, and walked away shaking my head.
> 
> Work'in For That Free Tee . . .


We were at $112+, that's is why they have been in contact about the status of qualifing the bids, we are the lowest bid for the calculated man hours.


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## amptech (Sep 21, 2007)

A GC I have worked for the last several years has instituted a new method for awarding bids to the subs. It is called Bid Matrix System. It scores a bidder in 4 categories with bid price being one of them. The other categories are safety, call-back rating and longevity/warranty. Low bid no longer gets the job on its own. So far it hasn't kept me from securing any of their work but it has knocked out a sheet rock sub and a plumber.


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

amptech said:


> A GC I have worked for the last several years has instituted a new method for awarding bids to the subs. It is called Bid Matrix System. It scores a bidder in 4 categories with bid price being one of them. The other categories are safety, call-back rating and longevity/warranty. Low bid no longer gets the job on its own. So far it hasn't kept me from securing any of their work but it has knocked out a sheet rock sub and a plumber.


Several school districts around here need to come up with a similar plan, they have gone with low bidder, turning into crap and had way too many issues (legal and otherwise) to stay the course they have chosen.
With BMS and EMS they often look at the certifications as company has in brand specific applications, that narrows the field a tad.


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## HighWirey (Sep 17, 2007)

randomkiller said:


> Several school districts around here need to come up with a similar plan, they have gone with low bidder, turning into crap and had way too many issues (legal and otherwise) to stay the course they have chosen.
> With BMS and EMS they often look at the certifications as company has in brand specific applications, that narrows the field a tad.


Your firm's 112 bid sounds like the low responsive bidder.

As you state, a buyer dealing with public money has way too many issues (legal and otherwise) strapping him. He does not want to award to a bottom feeder either. It only generates down stream problems for him, bad project performance, litigation, and on and on.

Good luck on this project, maybe you can pull it out.

Work'in For That Free Tee . . .


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> 1/2 of NYC electricians live out in the burbs, and yes, some even live in Pennsyl-tukee. I had to lay one off because everytime it snowed he couldn't get to work.
> 
> Take a look at I-80. 100,000 cars into NYC every morning. 0 to Pennsylvannia.


PENNSYL-TUKEE?

Bob O.84,Pennslyvania 15330


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

bobelectric said:


> PENNSYL-TUKEE?
> 
> Bob O.84,Pennslyvania 15330


Whenever anyone lives out in the sticks, say beyond a 50 mile radius from the jurisdiction, we affectionately add -tucky.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Whenever anyone lives out in the sticks, say beyond a 50 mile radius from the jurisdiction, we affectionately add -tucky.


I see and around here in NJ we just say they are two miles south of bumfuct.


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