# Ce's and Cw's



## sparky34 (Nov 5, 2010)

Does anyone work in a union with or are familiar with ce's and cw's? It seems to me that they would destroy our union. They are cheaper labor to decrease cost to contractors to stay more competitive with non-union contractors I know,but what happens when a jw teaches them everything he has learned on the job and in class? The cw or ce can now do the work of a jw for the fraction of the cost. The jw put his/her time in to class and tests etc.. and now the cw or ce would acquire this "free" education without going through all the hours of study and homework. I don't think it's fair and don't believe in it thus far. In addition, jw's would virtually disappear from job sites due to the ce and cw's cheap labor. Why pay a jw to do the work a ce or cw can do for half the price? I don't believe in it. Am I missing some critical info about this or what? Please let me know what you all think. Thanks.

-fellow brother


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## local134gt (Dec 24, 2008)

sparky34 said:


> but what happens when a jw teaches them everything he has learned on the job and in class? The cw or ce can now do the work of a jw for the fraction of the cost.


This is why if you have them on the job you shouldn't "teach" them anything. Only give them the most menial of tasks to do and thats it, fetching material, organizing material, cutting strut, and feeding or pulling wire with a JW.

They are a necessary evil, with the school shut down there are no more 1st year apprentices in 134 and soon there will be no 2nd yrs either. Can't really expect the contractors to survive too long when their lowest paid employees are getting paid $20/hr.


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## blusolstice (Sep 17, 2010)

we have cw's and ce's here (LU20-Dallas, FT Worth) and the amendment that allowed them was literally crammed down our throats by the IO. several contractors use them sparingly, some not at all..but the larger contractors are using it as a hire off the street policy. at our last meeting the stewards who reported had no idea of how many people were even on their jobs..it's getting rediculous.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Remember that the OIs mission is to organize everyone in the electrical trade. Whether you agree with the program or not, this program is one way of accomplishing that mission.

If you have a passion for this type of organization policy, get involved with your local and work for a delegate position if possible. There are also other ways to get your voice out there. Find them. With few exceptions, our representatives come from within our ranks. 
Also understand that manufacturing and maintenance have input into policy's that affect construction work. It seems as though when the upper management is shifted away from construction, we get hurt.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

sparky34 said:


> Does anyone work in a union with or are familiar with ce's and cw's? It seems to me that they would destroy our union. They are cheaper labor to decrease cost to contractors to stay more competitive with non-union contractors I know,but what happens when a jw teaches them everything he has learned on the job and in class? The cw or ce can now do the work of a jw for the fraction of the cost. The jw put his/her time in to class and tests etc.. and now the cw or ce would acquire this "free" education without going through all the hours of study and homework. I don't think it's fair and don't believe in it thus far. In addition, jw's would virtually disappear from job sites due to the ce and cw's cheap labor. Why pay a jw to do the work a ce or cw can do for half the price? I don't believe in it. Am I missing some critical info about this or what? Please let me know what you all think. Thanks.
> 
> -fellow brother


While I am against this program in our local, (we have an "R" program that works fine) your attitude about teaching is somewhat short sighted. As for the "R" program that has not hurt our "A" program it helped it. Keeping job cost down allowed union shops to compete with open shops, the better "R" men take upgrade classes and become "A" JWs. Expanding the work force.

CE/CW's are suppose to be limited to certain size projects to make competition in areas your local, MIGHT typically lose to open shops. Now if your local does not have this issue then you have a case. If your local is missing these projects it may give you an edge up to expand work.

But assume you take your attitude and you do not show the CE/CW how to do something properly he becomes a hack and now you local is know for it's hacky work. And what does it say about you a supposed professional AFRAID to teach someone?

Expanding on Jrannis, if the CE/CW does bring in more men hurting open shops labor force, then as your local gains a larger share of the work force you can get a larger share of the projects. Which means more work for you. With your attitude you could be hurting the future of your local.

IF THIS PROGRAM WORKS and the economy turns around, it could be good for the IBEW. If not you might want to consider working as a CE/CW, cause some pay is better than none.


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## running dummy (Mar 19, 2009)

brian john said:


> While I am against this program in our local, (we have an "R" program that works fine) your attitude about teaching is somewhat short sighted. As for the "R" program that has not hurt our "A" program it helped it. Keeping job cost down allowed union shops to compete with open shops, the better "R" men take upgrade classes and become "A" JWs. Expanding the work force.
> 
> *CE/CW's are suppose to be limited to certain size projects to make competition in areas your local, MIGHT typically lose to open shops. Now if your local does not have this issue then you have a case. If your local is missing these projects it may give you an edge up to expand work.*
> 
> ...



That is EXACTLY the only reason our local was somewhat ok with this policy, not that we had much of a choice. My BM wrote in the agreement that the CW/CE's can only work on projects less than 2,000 sq ft. which would be like small office buildings and strip malls.... the type of work that almost NEVER goes union around here...


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## henderson14 (Oct 23, 2010)

local134gt said:


> This is why if you have them on the job you shouldn't "teach" them anything. Only give them the most menial of tasks to do and thats it, fetching material, organizing material, cutting strut, and feeding or pulling wire with a JW.
> 
> They are a necessary evil, with the school shut down there are no more 1st year apprentices in 134 and soon there will be no 2nd yrs either. Can't really expect the contractors to survive too long when their lowest paid employees are getting paid $20/hr.



THe only problem is that there are first and second years that are unemployed right now and not getting hours to move up.


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## running dummy (Mar 19, 2009)

we also have it written in our agreement that no CW/Ce's will be SENT OUT if there are apprentice's sitting on the book


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

running dummy said:


> we also have it written in our agreement that no CW/Ce's will be SENT OUT if there are apprentice's sitting on the book


Sounds like these CW's and CE's need to _organize for their right to work!_


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Frasbee said:


> Sounds like these CW's and CE's need to _organize for their right to work!_


That's funny.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

CE/CW in it's current form is no good IMO. Seems like union busting to me. Thankfully I'm in a local powerful enough to tell the IO to go pound dirt, for now anyway's.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

slickvic277 said:


> CE/CW in it's current form is no good IMO. Seems like union busting to me. Thankfully I'm in a local powerful enough to tell the IO to go pound dirt, for now anyway's.


I think the outcome could go either way, Win win or lose lose.


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## running dummy (Mar 19, 2009)

slickvic277 said:


> CE/CW in it's current form is no good IMO. Seems like union busting to me. Thankfully I'm in a local powerful enough to tell the IO to go pound dirt, for now anyway's.


And which is that? New York? I'm right next to chicago and it was forced down all our throats and i would say that chicago is a very strong, powerful local. It's probably active in your local but on a smaller scale, like my local.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

brian john said:


> I think the outcome could go either way, Win win or lose lose.



Looking more like a lose lose to me.


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

I see many different views on one issue and several ideas of what this new program entails.This new program started 6-7 years ago Florida is where I heard of it first.My understanding is that it was started to gain back the small work (hamburger joints, 7-11's small commercial work) by employing nonunion electricians and or helpers at a fraction of what they would pay union journeymen and or apprentice.IO has allowed each local leeway to incorporate this new program along with their personal small works agreements therefore the ce/cw program is a little different in every local. I am of the opinion that this program not only hurts the union workers but also damages the mere value of ANY electrician and what they can demand for their labor. If you check news in the bay area(SF and Dublin) of California you will find where the department of labor has filed suit against contractors using this said program on any government funded job citing the fact that the state mandates that either a state certified electrician and or an apprentice that is enrolled into a federally approved apprenticeship program may do this said work. I have been to several local meetings where the average scale offered to these nonunion journeymen was $10 less than what the union personnel could expect to make and some with either none or little H&W and NO retirement.
I know not about the rest of the IBEW but the oath I swore to was to make all my efforts to gain a better way of life.Now how would one expect to do that by agreeing to work for a substandard scale(or even expect another to work for less) and little or no benefits.
Now back to where all this started (Florida) it started out on small jobs now the ce's are foremen on power houses getting paid less than some apprentice but still on the job while they lay off long standing IBEW members.If you do not like Florida lets go to New Mexico and see how those Brothers and Sisters like this program? It does make it easier for nonunion to get their foot in the door but at what cost do you sell you soul and what world do we leave for our kids?


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## mikeh32 (Feb 16, 2009)

there was a nice write up about this in the new union electrical newsletter thing. ill see if i can find a link


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## btr (Aug 29, 2010)

Just because you were lucky enough to learn about a union apprenticship out of high school when the majority of young men didnt (me), dosent mean they cant work towards a future union job. Hell, they still have to pass their state certification plus the IBEW test to earn 100$% of a Journeymans wage right? In my opinion they are MORE deserved of becoming union than someone that was pushed into the field by a senior IBEW member/family. Working for numerous small non-union shops over the years while gaining experience and learning about the "union" really makes one apprecieate the oppurtunity to go towards that path if desired. CE's are worthy if they are studying towards they IBEW cert.. My opinion. Noy just anyone can be an electrician.

Maybe a carpenter...


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

Now, I don't know much about ce's and cw's.

In fact, I don't even know exactly what they stand for. But it as far as I can tell, it's like a classification for "substandard" electricians and helpers. And based off the context of this and previous conversations on this topic, this classification of worker seems to be taken advantage of by some locals.

It sounds hypocritical in my opinion.

Correct me if I am wrong.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Brother Noah said:


> My understanding is that it was started to gain back the small work (hamburger joints, 7-11's small commercial work) by employing nonunion electricians and or helpers at a fraction of what they would pay union journeymen and or apprentice.


My understanding is that it was started because union brothers and sisters have no concept of how to rope a house or do small commercial work profitibly. It wouldn't matter if they were paid minimum wage, because most union electricians can't even operate without a detailed set of plans. The ones that CAN DO it are organized hands.

Put nine out of ten union electricians on a small job with no plans, and they'd run around in circles with their head up their ass. Put the same non-union guys who do small resi-commercial jobs on a large jobsite, and the same thing will happen.

So you got to ask yourself Noah, 'Do we want to make inroads to gaining this work back? Or do we want to go broke trying to buy it back?'

I don't know about who you are, but I am the kind of guy who believes that a man has got to re-prove himself often. We got some dead weight working, and alot of good guys out of work. The system we've got barely works, and it irritates talented electricians.


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## local134gt (Dec 24, 2008)

miller_elex said:


> My understanding is that it was started because union brothers and sisters have no concept of how to rope a house or do small commercial work profitibly.


I'm just gonna focus on the most ignorant part of your post, which was full of BS but I'll stick with just this part....

I have never roped a house, only pipe out here where I live. But I can assure you if I can pipe a house profitibly I sure as hell can rope one profitibly.... I'm sure there are a few tricks to be learned but how hard can it really be? And small commercial work? The company I work for does plenty of it and the 4 brothers that own the company I work for all seem to be doing pretty good. So us "union brothers" must be doing something right. 

I don't bash non-union workers and really I don't understand why either side has a problem with the other. Both sides have their pros and cons and both sides have their fair share of dead weight. In the end we are all electricians, and so we have more in common than not. And anyone who doesn't agree is just plain ignorant!


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

local134gt said:


> I'm just gonna focus on the most ignorant part of your post, which was full of BS but I'll stick with just this part....
> 
> I. And anyone who doesn't agree is just plain ignorant!



No you are basing your response on your expierence, IN SOME locals what Miller stated is correct. In our area most "A" men have no residential experience, in some areas they may only have industrial. While they can learn, they often look down their noses at this type of work.

Dare to think there is more to life than what you see in what may be your some what limited experience and mind.


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## Frank Mc (Nov 7, 2010)

Hi Guys

Could someone please explain what CE/CW means...??

Thanks
Frank


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

local134gt said:


> Both sides have their pros and cons and both sides have their fair share of dead weight. In the end we are all electricians, and so we have more in common than not.


Aren't you the self-proclaimed shop rocket?

You and your insider buds have a private pow-wow to pick who gets smoked on friday and sent to the end of the long list. Its like every hall man is a joke, and who gets the checks is the punchline.

Its a different story when a man is not the insider, wondering who is working that week while he sits on the hook for yet another week. Wondering if it had been a wiser choice to hit the tail end of the book, three months ago.

But when that same man takes his employment into his own hands, these same sweatshop contractors get all up and offended and label him a backsliding rat. 

I am all about doing what is best for all electricians, including the man on the outside looking in, and I believe the CE program to be in his favor. These men will have a hard time being absorbed directly into the local, with all the men who like to play petty mind games, so I say place a couple stepping stones on the way to JW and let them make a solid contribution on the way.


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

miller_elex said:


> My understanding is that it was started because union brothers and sisters have no concept of how to rope a house or do small commercial work profitibly. It wouldn't matter if they were paid minimum wage, because most union electricians can't even operate without a detailed set of plans. The ones that CAN DO it are organized hands.
> 
> Put nine out of ten union electricians on a small job with no plans, and they'd run around in circles with their head up their ass. Put the same non-union guys who do small resi-commercial jobs on a large jobsite, and the same thing will happen.
> 
> ...


 miller_elex if I may interrupt your thought process for a second, it is as if you wish to prove my point about going through the program and or organizing in. I am familiar with your local area even though I have only lived here for 7 years. I will disagree with your assumption that many have little knowledge of small works(I guess it depends on the scope of your small scope and or minded closed in area you associate with union members working in) What I have found in the many locals I have worked in (just in Southern California where many have been organized) is they have very little experience with Industrial and or large commercial.I would say it may depend on where you have come from and where your true heart Lie's that would determine a positive or negative thought process.Many locals in this area have an advanced apprenticeship program(2 years) available to those who prove 3500 hours on the job. IBEW pays for you classes and your starting pay would probably be more than what they offer the ce's(certified construction electricians) and this apprentice would also get full benefits unlike the ce/cw. The one thing I will agree to is it allows easier access to the IBEW but I will state for those that are slow or just twisted by their process in life "At what cost" I am of the opinion if you work this program and or you are a part of it you will in essence devalue the actual worth of all electricians labor.I appreciate your skewed opinion and efforts to help the IBEW, It is a wonderful thing that one would be able to do small works projects without much thought to help our IBEW so I gather by your post miller you have volunteered to apply yourself to this new program that io has slated for all of us in a race to the bottom??? I will pat you on the back though miller you are one of very few who have had anything good to say about this program. Every day I go to work I lead by example of earning what I am paid to do, then while off work I volunteer many hours,days to help underprivileged along with our beloved IBEW.This new program in my opinion is not exactly about trying to gain back or buy back our work(is our name on it) but merely an effort to bring in the numbers to where it makes dollars and cents.Now miller if you could demonstrate how this is a good program minus the effort to stimulate your own ego you might gain a few more fans.


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## DontKnowWye (Dec 11, 2010)

brian john said:


> Expanding on Jrannis, if the CE/CW does bring in more men hurting open shops labor force, then as your local gains a larger share of the work force you can get a larger share of the projects. Which means more work for you.


I disagree. It would bring in more work for *THEM* (ie, the CE/CW's).

Why would we want them using us to excel themselves?? 

The CE/CW program is simply a way for the IO to pull in more dues money.

Our local always had a "B" program which is now the CE/CW program and the bullsh1t has already began. We have "A" jobs going on right now that are maned with these lower paid electrician. It's funny that the carpenters, pipe fitters, even laborers all stood strong but the IBEW allowed the concession to man the job with workers getting paid almost half of a journeyman "A" wiremen. It's funny when the laborers are making more than the electrician, that's what the CE/CW program is doing here...


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Brother Noah said:


> *I appreciate your skewed opinion and efforts to help the IBEW, It is a wonderful thing that one would be able to do small works projects without much thought to help our IBEW so I gather by your post miller you have volunteered to apply yourself to this new program that io has slated for all of us in a race to the bottom???* I will pat you on the back though miller you are one of very few who have had anything good to say about this program.


I just volunteered for a recent nine month experience with a similar program whereby I was paid just above the going CE rate. It was called SALTING.

If we don't make inroads to utilize the non-union contractor's labor pool, then their value will remain low, but if we could soak up the excess men, their rate will rise too. Isn't that the labor supply side economics the local is already based upon?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

...................................


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

DontKnowWye said:


> I disagree. It would bring in more work for *THEM* (ie, the CE/CW's).
> 
> Why would we want them using us to excel themselves??
> 
> ...


I think if you had a "B" program and it worked/works the IO should leave your local alone.

I doubt the CE/CW will do much good if they make less than open shop once Obama is booted and we return to some normal economy.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

brian john said:


> I doubt the CE/CW will do much good if they make less than open shop once Obama is booted and we return to some normal economy.


Would that be an economy where we build mills? Or one where we build malls? Obama yo mama has nothing to do with either of those, but he still does greatly disappoint.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

miller_elex said:


> Would that be an economy where we build mills? Or one where we build malls? Obama yo mama has nothing to do with either of those, but he still does greatly disappoint.


No more mills or very few and malls are DEAD, town centers are all the rage.

And Obama has fuc*ked us in to deeper horse sh*t.


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

brian john said:


> town centers are all the rage.


Everything old is new again.


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## blusolstice (Sep 17, 2010)

Frank Mc said:


> Hi Guys
> 
> Could someone please explain what CE/CW means...??
> 
> ...


CE = construction electrician a supposedly high level non journeyman organized into the union.

CW = construction wireman a low level worker with little to no electrical experience.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

brian john said:


> And Obama has fuc*ked us in to deeper horse sh*t.


Here, here, Brian.

But I have a hard time trusting old-fashioned White politicians too. Seems us working class white folk have everybody to lie to us and nobody who truly cares about us.

I'm not all militant like the Shockdoc, but people like me might just give up because there's nothing in it for us.


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

Now mind you, my opinions are solely based on my geographical location and the knowledge I have of the work in my area.

I believe the CE/CW program is just another nail in the IBEW coffin here in Southern California. 

Simple economics. Supply and demand. The locals have the supply, but not the demand. The non-union has the supply and the demand. That's why the market share is so skewed in the favor of the non-union.

The IBEW mentality of trying organizing EVERYONE has failed. This started way back after the WAR was over. The newly formed local went down to the Naval shipyards and lined up guys and basically said "who wants to be an electrician?". And they were in. My grandfathers future brother in law was in that line. I have heard the stories. The new local even took in a boilermaker who didn't know anything about electrical. He eventually got weeded out, but he was there for quite a few years. He was good if you needed a body on a job, but didn't know crap. In today's times, he would be called a slug. But the difference is, the slugs of today aren't going anywhere. They are the ones mainly advertising low per hour side jobs. Not only hurting the union sector, but hurting the industry in a whole. 

I won't condemn a man for trying to put food on the table, but the IBEW made the mistake of concentrating too much on monthly dues and not on working dues. If they kept there membership ratios in line with demand, it would benefit the IBEW, contractors, and and employees, by putting more money in all their pockets. 

The IBEW got lazy and got that attitude that they are the best and they can demand more and they will get it. Then work got beneath them. It started with the ceilings (the LA local used to do t-bar), then residential, strip malls, temp power, small commercial, medical, maintenance, large commercial, and the list goes on. 

There is virtually no work for a Southern CA IBEW electrician that is someway not tied to a political vote. That is the direction they chose to go, and now are realizing that they made a grave mistake. It's time for a hail Mary. A few of the SoCal locals have what's called a "retail" book. Reduced wages for book 1 guys, designed to get work back in the Walgreens, PetCos, Targets, Michaels, etc. It was never utilized, the contractors don't want that work. Not enough profit. They will stick with their LAUSD, Evergreens, MTA, Kaiser, and AIG. 

So now they have a CE/CW program. The contractors will still not use these guys for small works projects. Don't believe me? Anyone see the series "LA Hard Hats"? That show features Walnut CA based Morrow Meadows. I don't know the exact figures, but I remember seeing them as a top 50 EC 20 years ago. Anyways, a good portion of the employees on that project were "summer helpers". What $12 an hour and no benefits? Ratios? What ratios? Since MM is a top dog in Socal, the local looked the other way, because the head chick probably told the local, "don't piss my menopausal ass off, or we will pull out of IBEW and NECA". 

I am willing to bet, that when the new NFL stadium is built near Staples, a majority (50%+) of the electricians will either be CE/CW or summer help. What is sad, is that project will end up being a $Billion + job and the guys who have backed the union up for the past 25 years will be on the sidelines watching the recent unemployed non-union "electricians" steal "their" work. 

As soon as taxpayers get tired of paying for bonds, the PW bread and butter of the locals will dry up too, and the locals will collapse.

I tried to keeps politics out of this post as much as possible and I wish you all would do the same, so this thread doesn't get shut down.

My rant is over, got to go focus on the 1pm games.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

knowshorts said:


> Now mind you, my opinions are solely based on my geographical location and the knowledge I have of the work in my area.
> 
> I believe the CE/CW program is just another nail in the IBEW coffin here in Southern California.
> 
> ...


Maybe the IO realizes the IBEW "A" is going to die on the vine much like the union that represented Safeway workers did. They allowed multi-level cashiers (original scale and lower scale) and now there is only lower paid cashiers left.

By allowing CE/CW they are saying good-bye to the "A" men and hello next dues paying members. After all the IO offices have to protect their paychecks


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## DontKnowWye (Dec 11, 2010)

brian john said:


> Maybe the IO realizes the IBEW "A" is going to die on the vine much like the union that represented Safeway workers did. They allowed multi-level cashiers (original scale and lower scale) and now there is only lower paid cashiers left.
> 
> By allowing CE/CW they are saying good-bye to the "A" men and hello next dues paying members. After all the IO offices have to protect their paychecks


Exactly. I couldn't agree more. 

I'm not opposed to wage concessions when necessary, we have to be realistic. But the CE/CW program is WAY too far fetched. To reduce a foreman down to the rate of a 3rd year apprentice isn't going to fly, that's much less than non-union would be making.


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## sparky34 (Nov 5, 2010)

I appreciate everyones input, it's helped me to gain some what of an opinion. I think there may be some pros and cons,but I beleive that once ce's and cw's are allowed on sites they could take over our union by the greed of contractors. They may come in slow but take over like a swarm of bees. Just my thought.

- fellow brother


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

sparky34 said:


> I appreciate everyones input, it's helped me to gain some what of an opinion. I think there may be some pros and cons,but I beleive that once ce's and cw's are allowed on sites they could take over our union by the greed of contractors. They may come in slow but take over like a swarm of bees. Just my thought.
> 
> - fellow brother


It is not greed it is common sense, if an EC can get the same work done for less money he would be stupid to not take that route.


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## Charlie K (Aug 14, 2008)

brian john said:


> It is not greed it is common sense, if an EC can get the same work done for less money he would be stupid to not take that route.


Brian, this will also spread across the board to nonunion contractors also.
Our local has had an R program and then an IJ program for many years. They are being replaced with CE/CW. We have survived so far. We are just north of you.

Charlie


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Charlie K said:


> Brian, this will also spread across the board to nonunion contractors also.
> Our local has had an R program and then an IJ program for many years. They are being replaced with CE/CW. We have survived so far. We are just north of you.
> 
> Charlie


We have the "R" program and it is abused some. My thought on the CE/CW for areas with an "R" program or something similar, is if it ain't broke why mess with it.

I feel the "R" has helped gain more work for the local.


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## DontKnowWye (Dec 11, 2010)

brian john said:


> I feel the "R" has helped gain more work for the local.


Again, as I said to you earlier, who cares if a program with lower paid workers gains more work for low paid workers? 

Sure, more work might be done under the "IBEW" name, but that's NOT helping it's current "A" Journeyman Wiremen members.

So tell me, why bring new people in to give -them- work under our name, work that we should be trying to get ourselves?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

DontKnowWye said:


> Again, as I said to you earlier, who cares if a program with lower paid workers gains more work for low paid workers?
> 
> Sure, more work might be done under the "IBEW" name, but that's NOT helping it's current "A" Journeyman Wiremen members.
> 
> So tell me, why bring new people in to give -them- work under our name, work that we should be trying to get ourselves?


NO it gets more work by lowering the job cost averages where "A" and "R" work together. MORE work for both.


As noted by others if the IBEW was not subsidized by Davis Bacon, it would lose a large market advantage, the IBEW has been shrinking and would shrink even more. If you can drop job cost you MAY get some work for both parties, better than no work.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

DontKnowWye said:


> So tell me, why bring new people in to give -them- work under our name, work that we should be trying to get ourselves?


If you don't give these capable men some work and a ladder to climb, out of frustration they will open their own shop, and do well, because their overhead is much lower than any NECA shop's. These small shops will never give back their bread and butter, we will go broke trying to buy it from them.

The IBEW will always be around, just not in the construction dept, unless we try new things. "Well it never worked before," Times change.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

miller_elex said:


> If you don't give these capable men some work and a ladder to climb, out of frustration they will open their own shop, and do well, because their overhead is much lower than any NECA shop's. These small shops will never give back their bread and butter, we will go broke trying to buy it from them.
> .


In theroy the IBEW is suppose to be about bettering ALL workers, the I in IBEW so not about INDIVIDUAL. Though that seems to be most members intent ME, ME, ME....


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## Nildogg (Jul 29, 2010)

DontKnowWye said:


> Again, as I said to you earlier, who cares if a program with lower paid workers gains more work for low paid workers?
> 
> Sure, more work might be done under the "IBEW" name, but that's NOT helping it's current "A" Journeyman Wiremen members.
> 
> So tell me, why bring new people in to give -them- work under our name, work that we should be trying to get ourselves?


 
That's the attitude that lost us marketshare in any city not run by union shops. The pick and choose days are done. Get what you can get. Just like they did when we thought we were above smaller jobs. They took them and built their knowledge and their little shops. In OC we now have 23% of the work...embarrassing.


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

Nildogg said:


> In OC we now have 23% of the work...embarrassing.


If it wasn't for the Convention Center and Disney, imagine that number then.


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## Nildogg (Jul 29, 2010)

knowshorts said:


> If it wasn't for the Convention Center and Disney, imagine that number then.


 
For sure. How about the two big Morrow Meadows jobs probably employing 80% of the brothers that are working?


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

brian john said:


> In theroy the IBEW is suppose to be about bettering ALL workers, the I in IBEW so not about INDIVIDUAL. Though that seems to be most members intent ME, ME, ME....


Brian we do not always agree but you are right on with your description of our present state of affairs. I have posted before that I believe it is my job to make the contractors money so they will employ more Brothers and Sisters in the future.I also believe in making sacrifices for our IBEW.Now Miller mention making sacrifices by working as a Salt for how long? Miller did this contractor sign an agreement or even say they would hire more of our kind in the future or did you just earn a living while you rode the books?(now that has nothing to do with making sacrifices no matter how much you were paid) What I have been taught about the IBEW is that we should strive for better conditions and pay for our labor(our being all working in the trade)This new program as some have pointed out looks like an ill attempt to raise funds from dues and in the process will have a negative impact on skilled craft persons.


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## DontKnowWye (Dec 11, 2010)

Brother Noah said:


> Now Miller mention making sacrifices by working as a Salt for how long? Miller did this contractor sign an agreement or even say they would hire more of our kind in the future


Miller showed non-union contractors that IBEW workers can be competent and profitable. Just because that one contractor didn't sign, it doesn't mean that the whole program is invalid. It didn't cost the union anything. My local is paying to put commercials on TV and billboards on the highways, not every person who sees them converts.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Brother Noah said:


> Miller did this contractor sign an agreement or even say they would hire more of our kind in the future or did you just earn a living while you rode the books?


I did just earn a living while I road the books for a year-and-a-half. There was some blatant self-interest in my seeking employment. Unlike you, I am no nation-wide traveler. The salting campaign was anything but successful, not my fault though. The contractor told me to send as many of my out-of-work union buddies as possible to man their backlog of work. Nobody came, I practically begged them to help me organize this contractor. The only other union guy who came onboard was a guy who was never with the salting program, OOPS Surprise! Noah, the truth is, nobody wants to work for $28 an hour, they'd rather sit on their butts and collect unenjoyment until a $36 an hour job with full benefits and retirement is placed in their lap. Isn't that a little undeserving? I know who here agrees with me and who disagrees... The same people who agree with me are the ones who have gone out, and sought their own work all along... without having anyone help them along the way. :blink:


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## Nildogg (Jul 29, 2010)

miller_elex said:


> I did just earn a living while I road the books for a year-and-a-half. There was some blatant self-interest in my seeking employment. Unlike you, I am no nation-wide traveler. The salting campaign was anything but successful, not my fault though. The contractor told me to send as many of my out-of-work union buddies as possible to man their backlog of work. Nobody came, I practically begged them to help me organize this contractor. The only other union guy who came onboard was a guy who was never with the salting program, OOPS Surprise! Noah, the truth is, nobody wants to work for $28 an hour, they'd rather sit on their butts and collect unenjoyment until a $36 an hour job with full benefits and retirement is placed in their lap. Isn't that a little undeserving? I know who here agrees with me and who disagrees... The same people who agree with me are the ones who have gone out, and sought their own work all along... without having anyone help them along the way. :blink:


...Orange County sucks right now...you're 150 out of nobody in the nation right now. Don't sell yourself short.


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## Frank Mc (Nov 7, 2010)

blusolstice said:


> CE = construction electrician a supposedly high level non journeyman organized into the union.
> 
> CW = construction wireman a low level worker with little to no electrical experience.


Thanks for that .....Construction electrician here in Oz is the same as any other electrician....???

As for construction wireman.....I recall reading something here in Oz where they were going to try and introduce something similar....cant see it happening here in Victoria at least..our union is quite strong......

Thanks
Frank


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

miller_elex said:


> If you don't give these capable men some work and a ladder to climb, out of frustration they will open their own shop, and do well, because their overhead is much lower than any NECA shop's. These small shops will never give back their bread and butter, we will go broke trying to buy it from them.


This gets back to requiring guys to provide a truck and tools to work for a contractor. From there, it takes very little ambition to start doing side work for cash and then stealing your bosses customers.
I never understood that mentality.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

jrannis said:


> This gets back to requiring guys to provide a truck and tools to work for a contractor. From there, it takes very little ambition to start doing side work for cash and then stealing your bosses customers.


Aside from the truck and tools, if we turn away capable men with initiative, all we end up with is a bunch of losers jerking off in the field, wasting money. Its all about money. Give some men a nice hourly rate to do a school job at night, and without supervision they'll be playing basketball in the gym. :blink:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Miller,

Are you working now?


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

miller_elex said:


> Aside from the truck and tools, if we turn away capable men with initiative, all we end up with is a bunch of losers jerking off in the field, wasting money. Its all about money. Give some men a nice hourly rate to do a school job at night, and without supervision they'll be playing basketball in the gym. :blink:


I've worked with guys like that.

If someone wasn't there breathing down their necks they took every opportunity to slack off. Worse was when I needed their help to complete a task...like lifting a 900 pound transformer on to its pad without a chain hoist.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

brian john said:


> Miller,
> 
> Are you working now?


 
Yes, I work for an Industrial GC.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

Frasbee said:


> I've worked with guys like that.
> 
> If someone wasn't there breathing down their necks they took every opportunity to slack off. Worse was when I needed their help to complete a task...like lifting a 900 pound transformer on to its pad without a chain hoist.


That's when you walk away.. Good way to get someone hurt or killed without proper equipment and rigging doing a job like that.


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

nitro71 said:


> That's when you walk away.. Good way to get someone hurt or killed without proper equipment and rigging doing a job like that.


That company made up for the lack of proper equipment with sheer numbers.

I remember there being at least 9 transformers weighing anything from 300 lbs, to 1100 lbs. We managed with "tanks", "mules" and a pallet jack. We had to get creative to say the least.

One of the foreman did lose the tip of his finger between a trans and a concrete wall while setting it...


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

miller_elex said:


> I did just earn a living while I road the books for a year-and-a-half. There was some blatant self-interest in my seeking employment. Unlike you, I am no nation-wide traveler. The salting campaign was anything but successful, not my fault though. The contractor told me to send as many of my out-of-work union buddies as possible to man their backlog of work. Nobody came, I practically begged them to help me organize this contractor. The only other union guy who came onboard was a guy who was never with the salting program, OOPS Surprise! Noah, the truth is, nobody wants to work for $28 an hour, they'd rather sit on their butts and collect unenjoyment until a $36 an hour job with full benefits and retirement is placed in their lap. Isn't that a little undeserving? I know who here agrees with me and who disagrees... The same people who agree with me are the ones who have gone out, and sought their own work all along... without having anyone help them along the way. :blink:


 Cute answer! Yes I am seasoned at traveling as well as Salting in many locals around the USA (some brought success others not) yet the longest term was preset at a month or less.MY last post was not to inflame your personal ire as much as my disgust with how our organizers are directing our volunteers and or lack of direction with a mere pat on the back and just go earn a buck.Now Miller you and I are in the same area and I only sign book two,yet I have manged to gain employment through area locals off book 2. I have helped 440 recently and 477,357,1579,776 in the past. Just recently caught call at San Onofre after signing the book the day before. I will say Miller I appreciate any effort to help unions but I disagree with this program as well as the way some locals organize(or not) 
Years ago Market Recovery was the new trial and error snafu that was tried by io and or locals across North America, with success rate almost unheard of, what we did find out though was if WE lowered our scale it would not create more work, it only created a larger monetary share for the union contractors(greed did over rule). Lets say a targeted job is under the guidelines must be under $100,000 in order to qualify for market recovery(pay lower scale to the workers) Well this is when you could see multi million dollar jobs being dissected in order to meet the guidelines and done in phases(same amount of work, the contractor makes more money, workers make less) I must offer that I post my opinion that has been form through trial and error that I have experienced in the IBEW.
Oh yeah my PM never rang.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Brother Noah said:


> MY last post was not to inflame your personal ire as much as my disgust with how our organizers are directing our volunteers and or lack of direction with a mere pat on the back and just go earn a buck. I will say Miller I appreciate any effort to help unions but I disagree with this program as well as the way some locals organize(or not)


My personal ire is with the leadership's agenda or lack thereof. I DO care about other electricians (good ones,) out of the goodness of my heart. The referral system is a load of BS, that encourages lazies and incompetents to shuffle from job to job. There are alot of good electricians that get stuck in that shuffle and leave because they are disgruntled. The system needs to evolve, I am a liberal idealist, but my patience has limits. I think we need what Vic's local has: solicit-own-job 50/50, and only take travelers from neighboring locals.



> Lets say a targeted job is under the guidelines must be under $100,000 in order to qualify for market recovery(pay lower scale to the workers) Well this is when you could see multi million dollar jobs being dissected in order to meet the guidelines and done in phases.


IDK, last time I checked, the architect decides what phase is what. I was on a million dollar market recovery job, and that one made FISTFULS of profit, much higher than you'd think. Market recovery never paid workers the lower scale, it cut the contractor a check for so many dollars per manhour worked to lower the composite manhour. 

Right now, my number one goal in life, is to go to work, put my nose to the grindstone, stay employed, and put some money away. End of story. I found out that when I focus like that, my heap of cash builds quickly. Next time I get shafted by the referral system, I'll probably go work in the office.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

miller_elex said:


> My personal ire is with the leadership's agenda or lack thereof. I DO care about other electricians (good ones,) out of the goodness of my heart. The referral system is a load of BS, that encourages lazies and incompetents to shuffle from job to job. There are alot of good electricians that get stuck in that shuffle and leave because they are disgruntled. The system needs to evolve, I am a liberal idealist, but my patience has limits. I think we need what Vic's local has: solicit-own-job 50/50, and only take travelers from neighboring locals.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Miller is the man and speaks the truth. Referral ONLY blows and holds us back. Meanwhile the nonunion eats the IBEW alive. I like Millers goals and I share a similar idealism. I'm all about fairness and it seems the loads (leadership) has forgotten what that means.


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## phawk (Nov 25, 2010)

This is just another way of getting in the back door. CE & CW's start off at a higher rate than apprentices. Apprentices that I have seen flunk out come back as a CE or CW at a higher rate. Read this month's Journal. Pres. Hill is all in favor of it, then again why not, it's more dues money. It even said in the journal that this program has kept many more men working, but as you read it, all CW's and apprentices are working, but 200 A members are on the bench. It lets the contractor have cheap labor, and he will lay off a mechanic. I've seen it done.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

I looked at the books. There is three CE's on there, none of them working. 

The local advertised on Craiglist seeking electricians for the non-union rate, and my out-of-work buddy gave me an earful about it. I had to set him straight on the deal, because he's the kind of guy who will milk unemployment until the tit falls off uncle sam's inner thigh.

Our world can only persist if contractors make money. People who work for a living should not be forced to compensate for those who will not make the effort. I really hate to see guys get smoked for wasting time: wasting their time, wasting my time, wasting the PM's time... but I have come to the conclusion that when guys (and gals,) do the slow shuffle, they are telegraphing that they want to be laid off. This comes after alot of drama, sticking up for people who I thought were getting the short end, only to find out later that they wanted to be on unenjoyment, but never told anyone. I myself will tell the man straight-up, 'when this job is over, it is time for me to go,' or, 'I want to be in the next round of layoffs.' But some folks aren't straight-shooters like myself, thats why I don't got nobody's back anymore. 'No good deed goes unpunished.' The only thing I won't tolerate is when someone is genuinely MEAN, to anyone.

It can be simply stated: 'this isn't welfare.' Nobody is entitled to welfare with Kleins in your pocket, but a great many men out there sure feel that way. And a reminder, if you're a good electrician, and you're out of work, I truly empathize with you. All the above statements don't need to be read by people who do make the effort.


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

Union boys better organize and retake the IBEW.


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

miller_elex said:


> I looked at the books. There is three CE's on there, none of them working.
> What book do you refer to? I know several locals in Southern California have been using the ce/cw program.This also reminds me that every local has a different contract dealing with this new program but I have yet to see one that starts a cw higher than an apprentice.
> 
> The local advertised on Craiglist seeking electricians for the non-union rate, and my out-of-work buddy gave me an earful about it. I had to set him straight on the deal, because he's the kind of guy who will milk unemployment until the tit falls off uncle sam's inner thigh.
> ...


 I can appreciate your oration on your inner thoughts on earning what you get in life but for thoughts of how to deal with the referral system is off base in my opinion.I can only guess that I have been brain washed into believing that we take our turn in the Brotherhood instead of having the "I got mine attitude" Now you posted you have not worked union in how long yet I have had several jobs in that same time frame(yes I did have to travel 50-100 miles) but I did not screw over any of my Brothers and Sisters who have done what was part of an oath we all swore to "do our part to better the union" I have also witness some on jobs that did not earn their keep yet stayed employed while others including myself were laid off but that does not give me the right to disrespect the IBEW.
The system where you can bid your own work sounds good to you because why? I am not familiar with how it works in Vic's local but the system they use in Boston is an awesome system if you are with the in crowd but if you just once get on the bad side such as get to old to keep pace with the 25-30 year old rockets then you sit at home until you have no choice but apply labor to hauling garbage,laying bricks,applying for food stamps as many have had to do in 103 not because they were lazy or did not want to work but had too because of this system.
What I do see in your post is frustration with your present state of affairs and possible a few decisions on your part that could have had a better out come if done A little differently. Without trying to inflict ill will in my opinion you also show a lack of dedication. I realize my thoughts may not be popular but when did being a union member mean you must take care of number one and let every one else worry about their self? In my 28 years in the IBEW I have always tried to earn the contractor money,abide by the book(2) system,actively participate in the IBEW and help better the union, yet the funny thing is I have always made it through thick and thin with the help of my Brothers and Sisters so I guess no matter how pissed off I get I will continue to help them(maybe I am too dedicated?)


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Noah, I always appreciate your perspective, and give it lots of credibility.



Brother Noah said:


> I did not screw over any of my Brothers and Sisters who have done what was part of an oath we all swore to "do our part to better the union" I have also witness some on jobs that did not earn their keep yet stayed employed while others including myself were laid off but that does not give me the right to disrespect the IBEW.


Noah, you earned your 1%er patch. That's how many folks live up to that oath. You are indeed, a rare bird.



> Without trying to inflict ill will in my opinion you also show a lack of dedication. I realize my thoughts may not be popular but when did being a union member mean you must take care of number one and let every one else worry about their self?


I'm not dedicated because I can see the writing on the wall. The kids these days who gravitate towards the union are the ones who want easy street, something-for-nothing. They're allergic to sweat and dirt. If we don't do something to negate this in the referral system, put a fork in us, we're done. These kids know this because they've heard the tales of times past.



> In my 28 years in the IBEW I have always tried to earn the contractor money,abide by the book(2) system,actively participate in the IBEW and help better the union,


Don't you worry about where your retirement, if any, will come from? In reality, its a ponzi scheme, where newcomers pay the dividends of previous investors. Not talking about the District 9 here.

Noah, what I REALLY want, is a referral system that is more fluid and changing. How it is supposed to work, is men are referred for a job, then return to the hall upon completion. 80% of the time, this does not occur. What currently exists is a system that penalizes a man who returns to the hall, because most all hands stay on the hook. I know of one kid who has been out of work on the hook for a year-and-a-half, because he was afraid to return to the hall, and served his whole apprenticeship with one contractor. You see, whole hospitals come out of the ground without one call going into the hall for manpower. This isn't wrong?


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

Miller I agree with your last post, Things are twisted within our own ranks. Even on jobs we have rights abuse that is rampant with the halls and io's backing until some radical azzhole files charges through NLRB, then that said person is a deviant that needs to be exiled from our midst(this is only a part of the life I live every day) hiding in the weeds is what I heard what you referred to as the apprentice doing, is in my opinion will cause harm to us all in the hood.I do not claim to be pro io and or the politicians that we elect but whenever a contractor can call by name,furlough, transfer %100 why would they ever need another union hall?Then there would be no need for unions.I do not try to push any one into being union but I would not want to work in an economic situation where the union did not even exist. What we have experienced is one of the worse economic down turns in all of history along with the problems that are associated with these woe's, add a tsar past his prime trying to save face by throwing up shtt(ce/cw program) and hoping for the best to come down, if it turns bad he will not have to work under the conditions he has set for us anyway(so it will not effect him in a negative way) Unions throughout our history have had some bad reps but they have more opportunities for those who want in if they only would gain basic legal knowledge. Thanks again for your post Miller I feel your frustration.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Brother Noah said:


> Thanks again for your post Miller I feel your frustration.


Noah, I am frustrated for the folks who play by the rules, who act morally and ethically. They are the ones who are penalized, not so much myself. I would love to be able to do the right thing, and suffer no negative side-effects. These people I am talking about are good electricians, not necessarily super-stars, but the type who show up for work everyday, on-time, put in an honest effort, and don't make any waves. This type of union electrician typically does sidework here and there when laid off to fill in some holes, but nothing regular. These guys, many of whom I consider friends, are holding out for the jobs that are a sure thing. They are waiting on the big industrial white whale jobs that last a long time. They are selective because they have to be, it takes a year-and-a-half minimum just to get to the point where a man can have a successful chance at bidding one of these jobs. A failure in strategy can leave a man back at the end of the book. The reason the books move so slow, is because contractors are afraid to draw men from the hall. Contractors are afraid because the quality of manpower is uncertain, yet there are many good men out of work. Good men waiting at the hall are dying on the vine, skills going unused decrease in quality. When a man is left with lesser of a skills set, in order to keep employment, he must fall back on the strategy of being a yes-man, in the face of bad treatment.

IDK what the answer is Noah. But if a Local has an active CE program, it gives a man on the books a chance to work out of rate and keep his castle. Good electricians who are forced to pedal backwards are going to become more aware of the forces in the marketplace, and take a more activist approach in the future to our common benefit.


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

IDK what the answer is Noah. But if a Local has an active CE program, it gives a man on the books a chance to work out of rate and keep his castle. Good electricians who are forced to pedal backwards are going to become more aware of the forces in the marketplace, and take a more activist approach in the future to our common benefit.[/quote]

I do not know what your local has in their ce/cw contract but most that I have been exposed to will not allow US to take these lower paying jobs, it is only for those who come off the street(that have no ticket) that are allowed to work these jobs. I will ask you to please go sign 47, there will be many jobs for state certified jw's for the roof top solar projects coming in before the end of the year. $47-48 an hour and $50 a day per Diem. There will be many different jobs coming for several contractors. Jobs only last 6-8 weeks but it is not hard to do the math. With projected jobs in Redlands,Ontario,Fontana and more in the future. I just went to their union meeting this morning. I was surprised when they gave all that showed a $40 gift card to Ralphs and choice of a local shirt or hat.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Brother Noah said:


> I will ask you to please go sign 47, there will be many jobs for state certified jw's for the roof top solar projects coming in before the end of the year.


Thanks for the heads up Noah. I am working, and even getting OT. My job is a lock, I've worked hard to solidify the Miller reputation, my reputation is everything to me and I will do whatever it takes to ensure it always shines. Of course it is for a signatory contractor. Everything will be money by the fistful until some PM craps on my back and we butt heads, that's when I do something impulsive that never works out, but I'm learning to be more calm.

Noah, all this worrying I do about the union, isn't for myself. Its for the health of the group as a whole. I don't have to worry too much in this local, as we gained another 10% of market share through the recession. Other locals are in the toilet for sure. I am not playing devil's advocate just to troll replies to my post. These ideas I bounce off you that seem anti-union, are just that: ideas. But until we are ready to sacrifice some sacred cows, we will not go anywhere in america.


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