# Is this a violation?



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Would feeding this recessed light with a 14/2 *With Ground,* and continuing the 14/2 *With Ground* to another light be a violation?


----------



## ampman (Apr 2, 2009)

2-14-2 in and 2-14-2 out no


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

What do the manufacturers instructions say?

~CS~


----------



## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

I suppose that, due to the labeling, you could not utilize NM cable. Your conductors would have to be contained in a wiring method that meets 250.118 for equipment grounding purposes.

Would I lose sleep over using two 14-2 NM cables...:no: 

Pete


----------



## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

I don't see any violation using 14-2WG. The EGCs in the NM are not branch circuit conductors.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

chicken steve said:


> What do the manufacturers instructions say?
> 
> ~CS~


Read the sticker.


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

There's more than that 480....~CS~


----------



## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

....are you eluding to the fact that you are creating an inaccessible junction box?


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

RGH said:


> ....are you eluding to the fact that you are creating an inaccessible junction box?



How so?


----------



## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

if this is then in a finished ceiling can against osb as shown how do you service this mess 2in/2 out...


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

RGH said:


> if this is then in a finished ceiling can against osb as shown how do you service this mess 2in/2 out...


Same way ALL recessed can splices can be accessed. Remove can, access splice.


----------



## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

as you and we know...hope the staple gods are generous...


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Would feeding this recessed light with a 14/2 *With Ground,* and continuing the 14/2 *With Ground* to another light be a violation?


Why you asking us? You are the knower of all stuff. :jester:


----------



## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

...I would just piggy the gnd and land under greenie..next...


----------



## JohnR (Apr 12, 2010)

Way I read it, you can have up to 2- 14/2 romex in that jb. 
The grounds are not circuit conductors, so that is no problem. The AC only is because they don't want you using it with DC.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

BBQ said:


> Why you asking us? You are the knower of all stuff. :jester:


To invoke a discussion.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

JohnR said:


> Way I read it, you can have up to 4- 14/2 romex in that jb.
> The grounds are not circuit conductors, so that is no problem. The AC only is because they don't want you using it with DC.



Four?


----------



## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

20.25"....is the space there?


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> I don't see any violation using 14-2WG. The EGCs in the NM are not branch circuit conductors.


Exactly.


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

measure it. Its only a j box. Directions or not.


----------



## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

JohnR said:


> The AC only is because they don't want you using it with DC.


...maybe they meant Type AC ONLY...and they are not referring to DC voltage.


----------



## Bbsound (Dec 16, 2011)

flip the cover around backwards, and heat er' up!!


----------



## madrone48 (Aug 15, 2012)

Is ground really a conductor if it never sees a load?:001_huh:


----------



## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

madrone48 said:


> Is ground really a conductor if it never sees a load?:001_huh:



What does the C mean in EGC?

Try Article 100 too


----------



## madrone48 (Aug 15, 2012)

Celtic said:


> What does the C mean in EGC?
> 
> Try Article 100 too


Was kidding. Clearly the solution to this problem is a separate jbox for the ground.


----------



## howabout (Mar 25, 2012)

Can the sticker just fall off?


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

howabout said:


> Can the sticker just fall off?


Let me get back to you on that.

In 10 years. :whistling2:


----------



## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

egc's aren't counted as ccc's..


----------



## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

BuzzKill said:


> egc's aren't counted as ccc's..


are they counted towards box fill :thumbsup:


----------



## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

only once..besides, it's not a ccc.


----------



## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

BuzzKill said:


> only once..besides, it's not a ccc.


No one cares if its a ccc...the issue is box fill


----------



## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

Celtic said:


> No one cares if its a ccc...the issue is box fill


okay so he's got two 14/2 in and out...what's the problem?


----------



## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

BBQ said:


> Why you asking us? You are the knower of all stuff. :jester:


speak for yourself, Doctor Smarty-pants-know-it-all. :laughing:


----------



## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

BuzzKill said:


> okay so he's got two 14/2 in and out...what's the problem?


Did you even read the thread?


----------



## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

Celtic said:


> Did you even read the thread?


not all the way thru..no...looked boring to begin with...what am I missing?


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

BuzzKill said:


> okay so he's got two 14/2 in and out...what's the problem?


14/2 in has three conductors. 14/2 out has three conductors. But all the grounds only count as one in box fill. So the last time I went to school, that totals five.

The label says there's a limit of four.


----------



## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

480sparky said:


> 14/2 in has three conductors. 14/2 out has three conductors. But all the grounds only count as one in box fill. So the last time I went to school, that totals five.
> 
> The label says there's a limit of four.


So the manufacturer printed a 'tarded sticker. Happens all the time.


----------



## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

480sparky said:


> 14/2 in has three conductors. 14/2 out has three conductors. But all the grounds only count as one in box fill. So the last time I went to school, that totals five.
> 
> The label says there's a limit of four.


yeah I get all this...people that made/printed that sticker don't know squat about the code.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

BuzzKill said:


> yeah I get all this...people that made/printed that sticker don't know squat about the code.


But I gotta follow what that squat sticker says. :001_huh:


----------



## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

480sparky said:


> Would feeding this recessed light with a 14/2 *With Ground,* and continuing the 14/2 *With Ground* to another light be a violation?


if we are done with the arm chair quarterbacking, manufacturer and model #


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Celtic said:


> if we are done with the arm chair quarterbacking, manufacturer and model #


Relevance?


----------



## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

480sparky said:


> But I gotta follow what that squat sticker says. :001_huh:


I'd love to talk to the inspector that fails that.


----------



## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

480sparky said:


> Relevance?


maybe the manufac's site has a pdf for that model that clarifies.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

BuzzKill said:


> I'd love to talk to the inspector that fails that.


His only comment was, "Damn.... look at all the minis!" 58 in a basement finish.


----------



## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

Bring up that sticker?


----------



## JohnR (Apr 12, 2010)

I was kidding 480, you quoted me too fast too. I changed it right after I posted that.
Was trying to invoke more discussion.
Seriously, I think the MFG expects you to use bx, or AC cable which is rated 90deg and does not have a ground, so you can have four conductors, so long as you use BX or rather AC cable.

I don't know why they would give you those NMB pryouts if that is the case, but That whole sticker doesn't make sense.

About the mini's in the panel, That is sooo sad. Around here that wouldn't pass. Have to install a sub.


----------



## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

Clearly all potlights should be piped, this way you can avoid the problem by using the raceway bond.


----------



## KennethKyle (Dec 21, 2012)

480sparky said:


> Would feeding this recessed light with a 14/2 With Ground, and continuing the 14/2 With Ground to another light be a violation?


480 it's fine those fixtures are designed for that and should have a tab u pop off with a flat head for Romex connections or use the 1/2" knockouts for connectors but it does make it totally inaccessible in flat roof because u can't just remove the can because they r riveted together ur only other option would be to stub out wires and install cut-in cans after drywall I've installed thousands in model homes just like that and never gotta tag


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

JohnR said:


> ............About the mini's in the panel, That is sooo sad. Around here that wouldn't pass. Have to install a sub.


Huh?


----------



## KennethKyle (Dec 21, 2012)

BuzzKill said:


> yeah I get all this...people that made/printed that sticker don't know squat about the code.


Nec signed off that fixture or else u wouldn't be able to use it read section 100 in our electric bible


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

KennethKyle said:


> 480 it's fine those fixtures are designed for that and should have a tab u pop off with a flat head for Romex connections or use the 1/2" knockouts for connectors but it does make it totally inaccessible in flat roof because u can't just remove the can because they r riveted together ur only other option would be to stub out wires and install cut-in cans after drywall I've installed thousands in model homes just like that and never gotta tag


The cylindrical can on the inside unscrews and drops down, giving access to the splices. No way would they get a UL listing otherwise.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

KennethKyle said:


> Nec signed off that fixture or else u wouldn't be able to use it read section 100 in our electric bible


The NEC doesn't 'sign off' on anything.


----------



## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

480sparky said:


> 14/2 in has three conductors. 14/2 out has three conductors. But all the grounds only count as one in box fill. So the last time I went to school, that totals five.
> 
> The label says there's a limit of four.


That is not what the label says.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> That is not what the label says.


Maximum of 4 doesn't mean 4?


----------



## stuiec (Sep 25, 2010)

FWIW, if you put the text of that label through a translator, back and forth from english to chinese about 5 times, with a brief stop in Poland, it reads

"To 4.14 AWG branch circuit in the junction box (2), so as to allow for at least 90 ℃
Only AC"


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

stuiec said:


> FWIW, if you put the text of that label through a translator, back and forth from english to chinese about 5 times, with a brief stop in Poland, it reads
> 
> "To 4.14 AWG branch circuit in the junction box (2), so as to allow for at least 90 ℃
> Only AC"


What about Chinese........ you know: for Cletis? :laughing:


----------



## KennethKyle (Dec 21, 2012)

480sparky said:


> The NEC doesn't 'sign off' on anything.


You can not manufacture and sell an electrical product without nec approval on the engineering. It will never be UL listed. When OSHA looks for an electrical guideline they go through nec the code book itself is only a guideline for the electrician and it says for a product to be listed it must first be approve and then the manufacture takes jurisdiction on how u install it


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

KennethKyle said:


> You can not manufacture and sell an electrical product without nec approval on the engineering........


Where in God's Creation did you hear that? :001_huh:


----------



## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

http://www.weiku.com/........ no all ya need is UL approval...you can get that right here.....sort of........good ta go now....they print and sell ul labels.....


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

KennethKyle said:


> You can not manufacture and sell an electrical product without nec approval on the engineering.


False, the NEC / NFPA is not in the business of approving anything.



> It will never be UL listed.


Many items are not required to be listed at all. And UL is not the only Nationally Recognized Testing Lab. http://www.osha.gov/dts/otpca/nrtl/nrtllist.html




> When OSHA looks for an electrical guideline they go through nec the code book itself is only a guideline for the electrician and it says for a product to be listed it must first be approve and then the manufacture takes jurisdiction on how u install it


I am not sure what you are trying to say there. But be careful with your words as approve, approving, approved, etc. is not what UL or any testing labs do. They test, the local AHJ (Authority Having Jurisdiction) approves things.

The manufacturer does not ever 'take jurisdiction' the manufacturer provides listing and labeling about how the product should be used. It is still up to the AHJ to determine if the product has been installed sufficiently complying with the listing and labeling.


----------



## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> I don't see any violation using 14-2WG. The EGCs in the NM are not branch circuit conductors.


Don,

I'm always up for an education. In this matter I believe I need it and have no problem admitting my ignorance.

How do you come to the determination that the EGC's are not part of the branch circuit? Is it because they are not CCC's? Or, is it right in front of my face in the NEC?

Pete


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Pete m. said:


> Don,
> 
> I'm always up for an education. In this matter I believe I need it and have no problem admitting my ignorance.
> 
> ...


What Don is saying is what I posted this thread for.

The bare ground is the Equipment Grounding Conductor (EGC), not a branch circuit conductor.


----------



## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

480sparky said:


> What Don is saying is what I posted this thread for.
> 
> The bare ground is the Equipment Grounding Conductor (EGC), not a branch circuit conductor.


So is it that the EGC is not considered part of the branch circuit because it doesn't carry current under normal circumstances? Or, because it has its own definititon in art. 100?

All definitions for "branch circuit" do not omit the EGC nor do they include it. Sorry for being obtuse on the matter. Just hoping my ignorance will help others to learn.

Pete


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

The branch circuit conductors, in this case, are the ungrounded ('hot') and grounded ('neutral'). Their purpose is to carry the power to and from the light.

The EGC ('ground') is installed to carry any ground-fault current, and, if necessary, facilitate in the operation of the OCD.


----------



## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Maximum of 4 doesn't mean 4?


deleted by poster


----------



## Ninety (Jan 7, 2011)

I figured it out, they want you to loop your romexes through the box and use these to tap the wire without cutting/splicing it.


----------



## Rocky point electric (Jan 28, 2013)

No that's for low voltage connections only , ( automotive usually )


----------

