# Wanted to share this with the resi guys



## sfeyelectric (Dec 31, 2010)

Any chance they are off GFCI breakers?


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Bama said:


> This is in my mama's bathroom and kitchen...BLATANT gfci violation. She bought the house this way so obviously the inspectors around here are sleeping on the job... I hope the pics are sized right... apologies if they aren't. I'm a bonehead that doesn't know how to size....


 
Have you checked to see if they're on the load side of a GFI or GFI breaker?


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

Bama said:


> This is in my mama's bathroom and kitchen...BLATANT gfci violation. She bought the house this way so obviously the inspectors around here are sleeping on the job... I hope the pics are sized right... apologies if they aren't. I'm a bonehead that doesn't know how to size....


 How do you know from the pic, that the receptacle is not fed from a G F I breaker??? :blink:


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## Bama (Dec 17, 2010)

There's not a GFCI in the whole house. Nor in the service box. And I even found blue boxes.


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

At least who-ever did it, didn't put the receptacles in upside down.:jester:


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## sfeyelectric (Dec 31, 2010)

I find it really hard to believe the inspectors would miss this. Take a picture of the panel and post it.


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## Bama (Dec 17, 2010)

Dnkldorf said:


> At least who-ever did it, didn't put the receptacles in upside down.:jester:


Thank gawd for small miracles. I was just concerned about it cause this will eventually be my house and I want everything to be safe for moms for now.


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## farlsincharge (Dec 31, 2010)

Why does the receptacle by the toaster need to be gfi protected?


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

farlsincharge said:


> Why does the receptacle by the toaster need to be gfi protected?


Because it's a countertop receptacle.


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## farlsincharge (Dec 31, 2010)

thegoldenboy said:


> Because it's a counter-top receptacle.


How long has it been code to gfi a kitchen counter receptacle though?
Here it has only been a couple years, and that house looks more than a couple years old to me.


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## Bama (Dec 17, 2010)

sfeyelectric said:


> I find it really hard to believe the inspectors would miss this. Take a picture of the panel and post it.


Ok I will tomorrow. I felt the same way. How could she buy the house with no GFCI whatsoever. I've seen the panel on many occasions (due to crappy HVAC work) and I didn't see anything that looked like a GFCI breaker. But being a noob as I am I may have missed it. I will look closer tomorrow. Thank you everyone.


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## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

Dnkldorf said:


> At least who-ever did it, didn't put the receptacles in upside down.:jester:


Sure they did.:thumbup:

Just because that's how it was when you found it doesn't mean that's how it always was or if it even needed a GFI when it was new. I know a lot of homeowners that don't need a $10 GFI when a 79 cent receptacle is "just as good".


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

farlsincharge said:


> How long has it been code to gfi a kitchen counter receptacle though?
> Here it has only been a couple years, and that house looks more than a couple years old to me.


You can tell how old a house is based off the wallpaper or countertops installed or the appliances pictured? And I can only reference as far back as the '99 code cycle. 210.8 A (6) so AT LEAST for the last 5 code cycles.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Bama said:


> There's not a GFCI in the whole house. Nor in the service box. And I even found blue boxes.


Sounds like a Flipper job.. those guys cut every corner in the book to maximize profit and buy another house to hack up..


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

thegoldenboy said:


> You can tell how old a house is based off the wallpaper or countertops installed or the appliances pictured?


I know there old when the siding is that old heavy tar paper crap that looks like red bricks.


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

Dnkldorf said:


> I know there old when the siding is that old heavy tar paper crap that looks like red bricks.


Maybe I'm missing something, but I only see two interior pictures of a bathroom/kitchen countertop. I don't see any exterior pictures.


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## farlsincharge (Dec 31, 2010)

thegoldenboy said:


> You can tell how old a house is based off the wallpaper or countertops installed or the appliances pictured? And I can only reference as far back as the '99 code cycle. 210.8 A (6) so AT LEAST for the last 5 code cycles.



I can tell that it it is not brand new. The receptacle plate in the bathroom appears oversized as well. Leads me to believe that that plug was added at some point in the life of the house. Probably not by a professional.

I could be completely wrong though, it happened once before.


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## Bama (Dec 17, 2010)

It was a remodel from '99. I think B4T has the right idea. But like I said I will post pics from the inside panel as well as the service panel tomorrow. The inside panel has no GFCI breakers. Just checked. :thumbsup:


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

thegoldenboy said:


> Maybe I'm missing something, but I only see two interior pictures of a bathroom/kitchen countertop. I don't see any exterior pictures.


Then you've never seen what I'm talking about.

When you see a house like I describe, you know it's old.

They generally have old newspapers in the walls for insulation.


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

farlsincharge said:


> I can tell that it it is not brand new. The receptacle plate in the bathroom appears oversized as well. Leads me to believe that that plug was added at some point in the life of the house. Probably not by a professional.
> 
> I could be completely wrong though, it happened once before.


I knew it wasn't brand new, but the code has been in effect for at least the last 12 years. I've only got as far back as '99 on PDF so that's all I can reference.

But as Bama said, it's from a '99 remodel which means it falls under the '99 cycle is that's the cycle that was in effect in the area at that time.


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

Dnkldorf said:


> Then you've never seen what I'm talking about.
> 
> When you see a house like I describe, you know it's old.
> 
> They generally have old newspapers in the walls for insulation.


I've seen what you're talking about. I old-worked a late 1800's Victorian by myself a couple of years ago when I was laid off.

I was speaking about this thread, not in general.


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## farlsincharge (Dec 31, 2010)

thegoldenboy said:


> I knew it wasn't brand new, but the code has been in effect for at least the last 12 years. I've only got as far back as '99 on PDF so that's all I can reference.
> 
> But as Bama said, it's from a '99 remodel which means it falls under the '99 cycle is that's the cycle that was in effect in the area at that time.



So is it all kitchen counter plugs then? Ours are okay as long as they are not within 1.5m of the sink.


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

farlsincharge said:


> So is it all kitchen counter plugs then? Ours are okay as long as they are not within 1.5m of the sink.


Yes, it is all Kitchen Countertop Receptacles.


```
[B][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=2][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=2]
[LEFT]210.8 Ground-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection for
Personnel.[/LEFT]
[/B][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=1][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=1][LEFT]FPN: See 215.9 for ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection
for personnel on feeders.[/LEFT]
[/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][B][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=2][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=2][LEFT](A) Dwelling Units. [/B][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=2][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=2]All 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and
20-ampere receptacles installed in the locations specified in
(1) through (8) shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter
protection for personnel.
(1) Bathrooms
(2) Garages, and also accessory buildings that have a floor
located at or below grade level not intended as habitable
rooms and limited to storage areas, work areas,
and areas of similar use
(3) Outdoors[/LEFT]
[/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][I][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=2][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=2][LEFT]Exception to (3): Receptacles that are not readily accessible
and are supplied by a dedicated branch circuit for
electric snow-melting or deicing equipment shall be permitted
to be installed in accordance with 426.28.[/LEFT]
[/I][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=2][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=2][LEFT](4) Crawl spaces — at or below grade level
(5) Unfinished basements — for purposes of this section,
unfinished basements are defined as portions or areas of
the basement not intended as habitable rooms and limited
to storage areas, work areas, and the like[/LEFT]
[/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][I][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=2][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=2][LEFT]Exception to (5): A receptacle supplying only a permanently
installed fire alarm or burglar alarm system shall
not be required to have ground-fault circuit-interrupter
protection.[/LEFT]
[/I][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=1][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=1][LEFT]FPN: See 760.41(B) and 760.121(B) for power supply
requirements for fire alarm systems.[/LEFT]
[/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=2][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=2][LEFT]Receptacles installed under the exception to
210.8(A)(5) shall not be considered as meeting the
requirements of 210.52(G).
(6) Kitchens — where the receptacles are installed to serve
the countertop surfaces
(7) Laundry, utility, and wet bar sinks — where the receptacles
are installed within 1.8 m (6 ft) of the outside
edge of the sink
(8) Boathouses[/LEFT]
[/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][B][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=2][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=2](
[/B][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]
```


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## Bama (Dec 17, 2010)

Looking in my 2011 NEC now. :thumbsup:


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

I've seen a bathroom recaptacle that was so close to the door that they had to trim the side of the cover back a bit hahahahahaha. Home flippers


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## Psyphren (Dec 31, 2010)

Dnkldorf said:


> At least who-ever did it, didn't put the receptacles in upside down.:jester:


I prefer grounding up. I've seen a penny fall and a metal cover slip between plug and receptical, Dead short. Grounding up is safer.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Bath gfis from the late 70's early 80's I'm guessing by the age of the apartments I work in. Buy mom some gfis and get to work. That might be the least of your worries there.


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## Bama (Dec 17, 2010)

nrp3 said:


> Bath gfis from the late 70's early 80's I'm guessing by the age of the apartments I work in. Buy mom some gfis and get to work. That might be the least of your worries there.


:laughing: yea that's what I'm planning on. And I do agree, the GFCI violation and the blue boxes are the least of what may be going on in this house.


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## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

Psyphren said:


> I prefer grounding up. I've seen a penny fall and a metal cover slip between plug and receptical, Dead short. Grounding up is safer.


 I prefer ground up as well, but to say it's safer one way or the other is a load of BS.


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## Psyphren (Dec 31, 2010)

mattsilkwood said:


> I prefer ground up as well, but to say it's safer one way or the other is a load of BS.


Its ungrounded, grounded and grounding. Not ground! And that's no BS.


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

I just looking in my 1971 NEC and there is mention of GFCI's but the only requirement is outdoors. Is this house older than that? It wasn't too long ago that only receptacles within a certain distance from the sink needed protection. It was also not uncommon in the early days of bath and kitchen gfci's, to locate a gfci outlet in the kitchen for the counter top requirements, and a gfci in the garage for all other gfci outlet requirements. Problem is, that outlet usually gets covered up from excessive storage.

No knock on you mom, but who uses paper towels in the bathroom?


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

farlsincharge said:


> How long has it been code to gfi a kitchen counter receptacle though?
> Here it has only been a couple years, and that house looks more than a couple years old to me.



1987- 210-8(a)(5)


All 125 VAC rec15-20A required by section 210-52 (b) installed within 6' of the kitchen sink above the counter.... shall have GFI protection..

(para-phrase)

up until '84 only garages and bathrooms were required GFI.


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## Bama (Dec 17, 2010)

knowshorts said:


> No knock on you mom, but who uses paper towels in the bathroom?


:lol: moms is USAF and retired phlebotomist so.... OCD doesn't begin to cover it. I just want her to have a safe house and I'm really having to keep myself from going to Chambers county and raising hades over some "flipper" taking advantage of a 70+ year old woman.


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

Bama said:


> :lol: moms is USAF and retired phlebotomist so.... OCD doesn't begin to cover it. I just want her to have a safe house and I'm really having to keep myself from going to Chambers county and raising hades over some "flipper" taking advantage of a 70+ year old woman.



The inspector may have noted it. No rule that it had to be replaced.
Check the HI report.


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

Bama said:


> :lol: moms is USAF and retired phlebotomist so.... OCD doesn't begin to cover it. I just want her to have a safe house and I'm really having to keep myself from going to Chambers county and raising hades over some "flipper" taking advantage of a 70+ year old woman.


Explains a lot. I'm glad I didn't jump to too many conclusions.


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## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

Psyphren said:


> Its ungrounded, grounded and grounding. Not ground! And that's no BS.


 I sure am glad you cleared that up for me.


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## Psyphren (Dec 31, 2010)

mattsilkwood said:


> I sure am glad you cleared that up for me.


Anytime.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

Look for an inspection tag on the service panel. Bet you don't find one for 1999. Probably never was inspected for the remodel. Even if it was the inspectors don't catch or even look at much. Blame the contractor who did the work.


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## jbfan (Jan 22, 2007)

Psyphren said:


> Its ungrounded, grounded and grounding. Not ground! And that's no BS.


You have a 50/50 chance of the item falling in either direction.
One way hits the *grounded* and* grounding* pins, and the other way hits the *gounding* and *ungrounded* pin.:jester:
Either way is equally safe or unsafe!


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## Bama (Dec 17, 2010)

:lol: thanks for the clarification... dig the sig...rise up go falcons!


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

farlsincharge said:


> How long has it been code to gfi a kitchen counter receptacle though?
> Here it has only been a couple years, and that house looks more than a couple years old to me.


Probably since way back when god was a kid.



Bama said:


> Ok I will tomorrow. I felt the same way. How could she buy the house with no GFCI whatsoever. I've seen the panel on many occasions (due to crappy HVAC work) and I didn't see anything that looked like a GFCI breaker. But being a noob as I am I may have missed it. I will look closer tomorrow. Thank you everyone.


If you have one of those little receptacle testers (like this):










then you can plug it in and push the GFCI test button. If that kills the power to the receptacle then it's GFCI protected and you'll have to go hunt it down to reset it :laughing:


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## Psyphren (Dec 31, 2010)

jbfan said:


> You have a 50/50 chance of the item falling in either direction.
> One way hits the grounded and grounding pins, and the other way hits the gounding and ungrounded pin.:jester:
> Either way is equally safe or unsafe!


I completely disagree, but its an OPINION, you can put it sideways it's No violation. Grounding up it looks like a pyramid, drop something on a small pyramid and its rolls off more than 50/50. If something falls in on two level pins its more likely to get stuck.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

erics37 said:


> Probably since way back when god was a kid.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes like in the other apartment:laughing:


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## Bama (Dec 17, 2010)

Here are the panel pics I promised. Sorry about the quality, they're from my phone.


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

Psyphren said:


> I completely disagree, but its an OPINION, you can put it sideways it's No violation. Grounding up it looks like a pyramid, drop something on a small pyramid and its rolls off more than 50/50. If something falls in on two level pins its more likely to get stuck.


Opinions are like FPN's, they're not enforceable. Until the NFPA puts it into the codebook either ground up or ground down for vertical installs or ground left or ground right for horizontal installs, it's purely personal preference. One way is no safer than the other, both sides have their arguments. We install according to the code, not according to the "what if" because what if it doesn't? There is no code requirement on it so install it either how you want to, how the blueprints call for or how the customer wants it. Can't go wrong with that approach.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Bama said:


> It was a remodel from '99. I think B4T has the right idea. But like I said I will post pics from the inside panel as well as the service panel tomorrow. The inside panel has no GFCI breakers. Just checked. :thumbsup:


No permits, no inspections and no compliance . Here is some aluminum pigtailing done by a GC at a flip home who didn't heed my advice to rewire. PS ; there were squirrels and racoons in the attic and they still choose to keep the AL.


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## George Stolz (Jan 22, 2009)

kaboler said:


> I've seen a bathroom recaptacle that was so close to the door that they had to trim the side of the cover back a bit hahahahahaha. Home flippers


I had to do that a few weeks ago, because the trim didn't match what I was told. Architects


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

Shockdoc said:


>


Damn, I heard NY got a lot of snow recently. Oh wait, is that your flash?


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

knowshorts said:


> Damn, I heard NY got a lot of snow recently. Oh wait, is that your flash?


That's all the sheetrock/spackle dust from the new sheetrock job....yes they were that cheap.:no:


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## grantcool (Jan 9, 2011)

Is there something wrong with using "blue boxes"?


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

grantcool said:


> Is there something wrong with using "blue boxes"?


 

yes.........


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

grantcool said:


> Is there something wrong with using "blue boxes"?


Only if your work sucks and you need to use the color of the box;s you use as a selling point.


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## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

Psyphren said:


> I completely disagree, but its an OPINION, you can put it sideways it's No violation. Grounding up it looks like a pyramid, drop something on a small pyramid and its rolls off more than 50/50. If something falls in on two level pins its more likely to get stuck.


 And if it does fall across the hot and the neutral, it's going to pop the breaker and that's the end of it. On top of this most cords for home use dont have a ground prong anyway so what happens then?
Like I said, I'm a ground up guy too but it's a purely aesthetic choice.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

mattsilkwood said:


> And if it does fall across the hot and the neutral, it's going to pop the breaker and that's the end of it. On top of this most cords for home use dont have a ground prong anyway so what happens then?
> Like I said, I'm a ground up guy too but it's a purely aesthetic choice.


 I'm only ground up on commercial and industrial otherwise ground down. My boss used to get mad back in the day when we would device homes, my co worker would go ground down on the first floor and i would go ground up on the second floor. I told it was good, the HO will know he's upstairs.:laughing:


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## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

Shockdoc said:


> I'm only ground up on commercial and industrial otherwise ground down. My boss used to get mad back in the day when we would device homes, my co worker would go ground down on the first floor and i would go ground up on the second floor. I told it was good, the HO will know he's upstairs.:laughing:


 I think it's somewhat of a local thing too. Here you almost never see one ground down, but I've noticed in other towns they are almost all ground down.

Yea, I know I'm a total geek for noticing stuff like that but you guy's do it too.:laughing:


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

Psyphren said:


> I completely disagree, but its an OPINION, you can put it sideways it's No violation. Grounding up it looks like a pyramid, drop something on a small pyramid and its rolls off more than 50/50. If something falls in on two level pins its more likely to get stuck.


This has been done to death, but I will chime in briefly. I understand the theory, but if I were a betting man, I would say that the chances of that happening are just about zero. In fact I would bet that it has never happened and that it is just some engineer's wild imagination.


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## cbjuray (Oct 12, 2008)

In older houses, we are not required to bring the electrical systems up to code because of a change of property ownership.
Install GFCI receptacles for your mom's safety and you'll sleep better.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Bama said:


> There's not a GFCI in the whole house. Nor in the service box. And I even found blue boxes.


Case closed right there. Hack job, no permits, no inspections, but many problems. :thumbsup:


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