# I really messed up



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

baronson said:


> I am feeding a new sub panel located at the opposite end of a 90 ft pole barn but instead of running an EGC I somehow thought I could just run 2 hots and 1 neutral and drive two ground rods as a ground. I guess I was thinking of it like feeding a separate building. Anyway, any suggestions or do I have to pull out the 2/0's (that I had a hard enough time getting in) and re-feed with an equipment grounding conductor? PVC-40 is my conduit.
> Thanks -(and you don't have to remind me that I can be an idiot)


Yeah you are going to have to get an EGC inside the conduit. 

Also we are no longer allowed to do what you describe for seperate buildings.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Why not run your ground in PVC right next to the feeder? I've never done it, but could you?


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

backstay said:


> Why not run your ground in PVC right next to the feeder? I've never done it, but could you?


:no:

See 300.3(B).


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

BBQ said:


> :no:
> 
> See 300.3(B).


Also 300.5(I)

Do you install a EGC in each EMT conduit of a multi conduit parallel run?


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

backstay said:


> Also 300.5(I)


300.3 / 300.5 either way.




> Do you install a EGC in each EMT conduit of a multi conduit parallel run?


If you put one in one of them you have to put one in all of them.

250.122(F)


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## baronson (Jun 22, 2012)

Thanks for the responses, I'm going to try to get a fish tape through and see what happens.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

baronson said:


> Thanks for the responses, I'm going to try to get a fish tape through and see what happens.


No way i would do that. You're taking a helluva chance on burning through the existing conductors. You need to pull then out and repull


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

Got a rodder or fiberglass fish?


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

I think you are compliant if on the 2008 code cycle or earlier.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

John Valdes said:


> I think you are compliant if on the 2008 code cycle or earlier.


 
For attached subpanel in same structure this has been outlawed for a very long time. Back in the 50's I think. For a detached structure, it was legal under '05 (assuming no other metallic paths) but became illegal under 08 code




You been watching any football???? How bout that skins game yesterday?:thumbup:


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## Electrician343 (May 1, 2009)

baronson said:


> I am feeding a new sub panel located at the opposite end of a 90 ft pole barn but instead of running an EGC I somehow thought I could just run 2 hots and 1 neutral and drive two ground rods as a ground. I guess I was thinking of it like feeding a separate building. Anyway, any suggestions or do I have to pull out the 2/0's (that I had a hard enough time getting in) and re-feed with an equipment grounding conductor? PVC-40 is my conduit.
> Thanks -(and you don't have to remind me that I can be an idiot)


suck a string through it? attempt to tie rope through it use lots of soap to pull rope through I mean the PVC should be sealed that's my only suggestion for sneaking the extra conductor in. I don't even know if you'll be able to with conductors already in it.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

If there is no inspection I would have no problem bonding it on the other end and adding a couple ground rods. I see no real danger in it. If you have a permit on it, tough luck. Pull em out.
But it was a bonehead move.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Yeah you are going to have to get an EGC inside the conduit.
> 
> Also we are no longer allowed to do what you describe for seperate buildings.


If he is under the 2008, could he do it?


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

.................


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

mxslick said:


> Oh, since no one's looking over your shoulder you have no problem with a major safety violation?
> 
> And explain how a set of ground rods with resistance of around say 10-15 ohms are gonna allow enough current flow to trip an OCPD?
> 
> Glad you don't work in my area.


I would bond the panel like a main. So reality there would be less resistance than if I ran a EGC. Tell me how that would be dangerous. I know it is against code, but dangerous. Please explain.


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## 19kilosparky984 (Sep 14, 2011)

mxslick said:


> Oh, since no one's looking over your shoulder you have no problem with a major safety violation?
> 
> And explain how a set of ground rods with resistance of around say 10-15 ohms are gonna allow enough current flow to trip an OCPD?
> 
> Glad you don't work in my area.


I'm glad I don't work in your area.

I hate guys that just work out of the code book but can't apply common sense.


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## tim123 (Feb 15, 2009)

is the run only 90 ft. - 100 ft. with 2/0? that should be a few hours for you and another guy to pull out by hand.. I wouldn't even waste my time trying to a ground in with a fishtape.. and hell jetline or rope would definitely burn through, while also getting stuck and making you mad all day to the point that you just pull everything out anyways.


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

........................................


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## Davethewave (Jan 6, 2012)

tim123 said:


> is the run only 90 ft. - 100 ft. with 2/0? that should be a few hours for you and another guy to pull out by hand.. I wouldn't even waste my time trying to a ground in with a fishtape.. and hell jetline or rope would definitely burn through, while also getting stuck and making you mad all day to the point that you just pull everything out anyways.


I agree, I did a thirteen unit complex where all the EGC's were pulled out and stollen from the conduits. By far the best way to replace them was to pull the sub feed back with pull tape attached add the ground and head back the other way. Three guys 1/2 a day 8-(


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## 19kilosparky984 (Sep 14, 2011)

mxslick said:


> And I hate smart asses who come on without common sense on such a dangerous thing.
> 
> .


But not as dangerous as " cinema service technician" trying to do actual electrical work


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

mxslick said:


> Oh, since no one's looking over your shoulder you have no problem with a major safety violation?
> 
> And explain how a set of ground rods with resistance of around say 10-15 ohms are gonna allow enough current flow to trip an OCPD?
> 
> Glad you don't work in my area.


What if he sets up a ufer ground system of0-0.5 ohms???


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

mxslick said:


> How about the simple laws of electricity where, in your proposed scenario, you now effectively have impressed any return current on your neutral to the EGCs, minus what small amount will get passed to the ground rods.
> 
> How about the many reasons that Code makes us separate grounding and neutral conductors at sub panels? And why we can no longer use EGC's as neutrals on range and dryer installations.
> 
> ...


All I got out of that little rant was that you can not explain to me why this would be dangerous. The principles of current flow are on my side. In fact an overcurrent device might trip faster going to a 2/0 neutral than to a #4 EGC.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Cletis said:


> What if he sets up a ufer ground system of0-0.5 ohms???


This has nothing to do with tripping an overcurrent device in a fault.


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

...........................


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## 19kilosparky984 (Sep 14, 2011)

mxslick said:


> GFY.  I have been an electrician for over 20 years, my CURRENT occupation is a cinema service tech. I find it more interesting and varied than working as just an electrician.


Roflmao

You just one of the hobby guys, not really an electrician just pretending. I bet you use terms like" well the Nec is just the code minimum" and are a firm believer in power savers.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Well, he is in CA. Do they even have licensing? Maybe he was lucky enough to get grandfathered in.


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

Gotta love the ( sarcastic ) positive enforcement , lol ! I guess some people never made mistakes in their electrical careers , lol ?


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Not you drumnut. I was talking to Mr. pompus MXslic


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

I know that . I'm in awe of the know how some of these people claim to have ! Tell the guy how to fix the problem and why what he did was wrong . Leave the demeaning ball busting out if it ! Most people here want to learn and are willing to lend knowledge and if you can't do that in a nice way , please leave 😃


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

It's only messed up , if its not fixable . Pull all the conductors out and re- pull with an EGC . No harm , no foul !


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## 19kilosparky984 (Sep 14, 2011)

drumnut08 said:


> I know that . I'm in awe of the know how some of these people claim to have ! Tell the guy how to fix the problem and why what he did was wrong . Leave the demeaning ball busting out if it ! Most people here want to learn and are willing to lend knowledge and if you can't do that in a nice way , please leave dde03


You must be lost, MIke Holts forum is down the hall


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

I always have a hard time getting the film to start in that little slot. It always wants to buckle.


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## 19kilosparky984 (Sep 14, 2011)

sbrn33 said:


> I always have a hard time getting the film to start in that little slot. It always wants to buckle.


Well you know if you grounded that camera and properly bonded the film you wouldn't have that problem


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## bartstop (Sep 30, 2012)

It's not a f**k up until you walk away from it. Pull everything out and start over. Sh!t happens. Fix it and move on.


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## glen1971 (Oct 10, 2012)

bartstop said:


> It's not a f**k up until you walk away from it. Pull everything out and start over. Sh!t happens. Fix it and move on.


Hope the OP has realized this and not waited 3 weeks to fix it..


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