# No room for larger panel



## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

currently we have a 100a service with a sub panel that needs to be updated to 200a but there isn't room for a larger panel, does anyone make smaller 200a panels ?













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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

.....


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## ppsh (Jan 2, 2014)

I can likely find a panel if you provide some dimensions of how large it could be.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

Yes , opening up the wall is my last option if I don't have any others 


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## shocksystems (Apr 25, 2009)

WronGun - Isn't that going to be difficult and a huge hassle to replace without opening the wall up? (Even if you manage to find a panel that fits in that opening)


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I asked this a couple weeks ago, the smallest 200A main breaker panel you will find is around 31" high. 

I find myself changing panels in your exact situation all the time. I just cut downwards to open up the hole to what I need. I always tell the customer that there is no other option because all new panels are much larger than the old ones. I've never had an issue. The trick is to not leave any doubt, the wall *has to be cut opened*. 

I always mention to the customer that if they don't feel like having the opening finished with a door and molding like it was, that they can just hang a big picture over it. Many of them like that idea, cheap and easy.


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## Signal1 (Feb 10, 2016)

The panels are bigger now due to the bending space requirements. I doubt you'll find a 200A to fit that opening.
A little carpentry will probably be required there.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

Ya , it's going have to be opened up ... plain and simp!


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Signal1 said:


> *The panels are bigger now due to the bending space requirements*. I doubt you'll find a 200A to fit that opening.
> A little carpentry will probably be required there.


Dittos, absolutely. :thumbsup:


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## PlugsAndLights (Jan 19, 2016)

Up here we'd pull out both existing panels and mount a 200A sideways. 
Done. 
P&L


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

PlugsAndLights said:


> Up here we'd pull out both existing panels and mount a 200A sideways.
> Done.
> P&L


An American 200A wouldn't fit sideways. I doubt a Canadian panel would with the segregated hot section.

WronGun, check your local code. The NEC won't allow you to install a new panel in that location. We have a rehab code in NJ that will allow it, you may too.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

WronGun said:


> currently we have a 100a service with a sub panel that needs to be updated to 200a but there isn't room for a larger panel, does anyone make smaller 200a panels ?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Rough frame it for a DOOR.

Said 'door packages' go for a song at Ho Depot et. al.

Impossible to beat for ease for you.

Obviously, the door knob on the inside is omitted.

%%%

You didn't admit to this puppy being located in a prohibited space...

Just don't frame it large enough to induce the HO to cram it with junk.


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## sarness (Sep 14, 2010)

Back in the day I picked up a GE 200 amp MLO panel that was 2' high to replace an FPE with conduits top, bottom and sides.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

You will have no choice but breach the wall open because all the 200 amp panels I know they are more than 31 inches typically 42 inches if I got the last number correct so you will have to make it rough opening bigger the panel itself.,,

Leave the top part alone .,


Hack did bring up couple good points so think about Rehab codes that may be used on that appaction but check it out what they say about that location.


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

hack, why cant it go in that location? looks like there is enough space around it if opened up to fit new panel.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

papaotis said:


> hack, why cant it go in that location? looks like there is enough space around it if opened up to fit new panel.


Since the panel is set back into the wall, the wall is inside of the panel's working space. To make it code compliant, you would have to mount the panel out further so that its flush with the wall.


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

ive seen any such situations that were passed as long as you dont have to reach more than a couple inches in. that one is a little deeper.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

papaotis said:


> ive seen any such situations that were passed as long as you dont have to reach more than a couple inches in. that one is a little deeper.


I'm sure a lot of places have amendments. It makes sense to get rid of older panels and fuse boxes and install newer and safer panels, even if the access is lacking.

But from an NEC standpoint, it's not compliant. So WronGun would be best off checking first to be sure, IMO.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

HackWork said:


> I'm sure a lot of places have amendments. It makes sense to get rid of older panels and fuse boxes and install newer and safer panels, even if the access is lacking.
> 
> But from an NEC standpoint, it's not compliant. So WronGun would be best off checking first to be sure, IMO.


Ya got a good point there Hack.,, I relized what you are saying on that.,,

WronGun is that building have basement if so can you just set a new panel in basment and make that old fuse box as J box ??


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

For goodness sakes.

Set a door, the factory assembly.

Remove all of the old sheet rock, leaving the prior location a surface mount scheme.

At worst, you'll have to shift one stud.

To see what such a scheme looks like:

Jump to 4.27






The rough-in required is pitifully trivial. The consequence is that your primary job, the panel, is made astoundingly easy.

What is not shown is that Ho Depot and others manufacture PERFECT door packages that are idiot-simple to install -- for _peanuts_.

You are NOT framing a load bearing structure. It's pure beauty work.

For myself, since I use so little lumber, I stay with treated lumber -- so that I don't have to deal with flaws.

The 'door solution' makes it possible to remediate old fuse boxes -- AND leave plenty of options for the future. 

It's a snap to slap a hunk of treated plywood on the old studs and bring the Romex cables out a tad.

You can then toss in whole-house surge protection and whatnot. :thumbsup:


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

have no idea what you mean that treated lumber remedies flaws?


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

papaotis said:


> have no idea what you mean that treated lumber remedies flaws?


You will find that ordinary stud lumber is of a MUCH lower grade than the treated stuff.

You end up dealing with wane, checks, twist -- etc.

Whereas treated lumber -- especially that pink stuff in the Greater Toronto Area -- is sweet to work with: dead straight, DRY, and largely select sticks. ( Usually knot-free, too.)

You pay a premium for it. But for the micro-amount of framing that I do, why fuss with common lumber ?

I don't have TIME to waste going through stick after stick at Big Box Hardware -- which seems to have some special deal to by the left overs from the saw mills.

Do you want to waste your day sorting lumber ?

You'll note that Tommy -- see the video -- is using SELECT lumber for the TV show. That's NOT the lumber you're going to find at Big Box Hardware. His 'ordinary' sticks are FLAWLESS... as if the typical homeowner is going to ever find the same. :laughing:

The extra $10 is peanuts in the over all equation.

The sheer beauty of the door// fake closet scheme is that you then can slap a hunk of treated plywood across the original studding -- and never have to re-frame ANYTHING in the original structure. It's never troublesome to bring the Romex out and into the new panel -- as you're talking but a few inches. You can slap in patch-boxes to extend your cables, too. 

This is all possible because interior door packages are available at Big Box Hardware for under $100. 

You can go to YouTube to see how trivial it is to toss up the rough framing -- seeings how it's strictly a hunk of beauty work -- and will not be carrying any load. Even the jack stud can be formed up with scrap wood -- see Tommy's technique.

BTW, as an electrician in old work -- stay with wood screws and your impact driver. Shun nails and nail guns. Two screws = six nails in holding power. Further, you can back them out if you foul up, and you are not going to knock anything loose.

You do all of your electrical work first. Then shield your surface mounted upgrade with a 'Tommy Silva' door package.

Once you've completed the rough framing, any handyman can come after and slap up the sheet rock, tape -- and paint to match. 

Plan B is to have a pal framer to perform the task. The door scheme figures to be faster and more elegant than any wall repair you might imagine. It also provides vastly greater opportunities for follow on electrical work... forever.

You've created a micro utilities closet. ( Think data-com, ... etc. )

The only hitch in this scheme: the home owner has to keep the area in front of the 'closet' uncluttered.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

The door idea is cool but, if someone hires a handyman to patch and paint, he can hang the door as well.

Pink, treated lumber at HD? That's new to me. Doesn't matter if the lumber is perfect anyway. Door frames have shims.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Pressure treated around here is less knotty but it's so wet that when you drive a nail vertically into it, water pools on top of the head. If you use it for decking, you don't even have to space it - it will shrink so much when it dries, you wind up with a nice spacing. There is no telling what shape it will take as it dries, cups, warps, bends, twists, anything is possible. The stud lumber is often **** too but it's stable, if you're just getting a few, you can pick good ones at the big box stores.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

I like this idea with the door ... but if you put a door in a load bearing wall, don't you have to put a header in? 

I would think that the door would occupy the space where you want the panel to be, you'd have an interference problem ... does this work in 2x4 framing or only 2x6 framing?


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

splatz said:


> I like this idea with the door ... but if you put a door in a load bearing wall, don't you have to put a header in?
> 
> I would think that the door would occupy the space where you want the panel to be, you'd have an interference problem ... does this work in 2x4 framing or only 2x6 framing?


My rule with anything structural - If I don't know, I don't touch it.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

splatz said:


> I like this idea with the door ... but if you put a door in a load bearing wall, don't you have to put a header in?
> 
> I would think that the door would occupy the space where you want the panel to be, you'd have an interference problem ... does this work in 2x4 framing or only 2x6 framing?


Your answer to the above is in Tommy's video -- see the link above in the thread.

The door is NEVER a load bearing creature.

It replaces the 'picture frame' scheme -- but with MUCH more flexibility.

BTW, most so-called handymen CAN'T frame a door -- as simple as it is.

See the video above as to how trivial it is.

Then, you'll KICK yourself. 

A micro closet solves no end of up-grade headaches.

ESPECIALLY for the electrician. 

Suddenly, the whole job turns into a rapid fire surface mount project.

All of your headaches evaporate. :thumbsup:

You don't have to get clever with anything. Your work flies into the building. :thumbsup:


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

99cents said:


> My rule with anything structural - If I don't know, I don't touch it.


See the video. 

The door scheme does not EVER touch the old framing.

It NEVER involves load bearing anything.

It's a beauty trim and a fake closet that has virtually no depth.

See the video.

The amount of rough framing is pitifully trivial.

See the video.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

splatz said:


> I like this idea with the door ... but if you put a door in a load bearing wall, don't you have to put a header in?
> 
> I would think that the door would occupy the space where you want the panel to be, you'd have an interference problem ... does this work in 2x4 framing or only 2x6 framing?


Stop posting and view the video.

Start at 4:27.

Everything you're concerned about is NO concern at all.

See the video.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I don't think any customer wants an extra door. Just cut it open a little bit more and hang a picture.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

HackWork said:


> *I don't think any customer wants an extra door.* Just cut it open a little bit more and hang a picture.


Yes, but YOU do.

It's a door to no-where.

It's not ugly. No-one thinks a thing about it.

Because of the low cost of factory manufactured door packages, you CAN'T cover the work zone any cheaper.

Nor can you possibly make it easier to toss in additional e-work.

You can leave your shoe-horn back out in your van.

View the video.

The speed pick-up for the electrician is astounding. Suddenly the ENTIRE project is a bare bones surface mount affair -- where meeting the Code is a SNAP. :thumbsup:

You don't even need waivers. :no:

AND.

All of your needs to extend cables// reroute this or that -- are a SNAP. 

You can set j-boxes willy-nilly. 

You actually think a picture and frame come at no cost ?

Compare any to the trivial prices Big Box Hardware charges for a door package. :yes:


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

If this scheme is too much for your talents -- sub it out to a handyman// carpenter.

They'll laugh their a$$es off at such easy work... for so much $$$.

You never intended to get into the drywall painting business in the first place.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

telsa said:


> Yes, but YOU do.


No I don't, I want to get out of there with my check in hand as soon as possible. My father got me into the electricians union because he didn't want me to be a carpenter like him.

Like I said earlier, I do this all the time. Half of the panels I change are behind basement walls like this. Just cut a notch downwards and you're set. The homeowner is always happy.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

This is why you have other trades on speed dial. I know a girl (yes, a girl) who would make that pretty on a Saturday morning. I'm an electrician, not a wood butcher.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> This is why you have other trades on speed dial. I know a girl (yes, a girl) who would make that pretty on a Saturday morning. I'm an electrician, not a wood butcher.


Yeah, most people don't want to pay an electrician $150/hour to go buy doors at Home Depot and install them where they aren't needed.

I still can't get over installing a full door where a little access panel goes.  How many people are going to be opening it thinking it's the bathroom?


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

telsa said:


> If this scheme is too much for your talents -- sub it out to a handyman// carpenter.
> 
> They'll laugh their a$$es off at such easy work... for so much $$$.
> 
> You never intended to get into the drywall painting business in the first place.


You said to hire a handyman to patch and paint. I said to hire a handyman to do the whole bloody thing. I don't need to watch no video.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

99cents said:


> You said to hire a handyman to patch and paint. I said to hire a handyman to do the whole bloody thing. I don't need to watch no video.


As big a brain as there ever was.

And open minded, too. :thumbsup:


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

I'm with Hack. I'm there to change the panel and take their money. I can give the customer the number of somebody who will pretty it up.

Seriously, if I am screwing around with carpentry and moldings, it detracts from my skills as an electrician. I'm better off referring the job to someone who is an expert at that kind of stuff. If I'm a hack carpenter, why wouldn't the customer think I'm a hack electrician as well?

There was a dude here who posted photos of crown molding he installed but he was a finishing carpenter before he became an electrician. That's different.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

I have a framer friend JUST for the people who want to spend for a carpentry addition. He takes crap studs and puts em in such a way that he compensates for warping. He's fast and good but expensive.

Something like this could get bi fold doors too...... Carpentry options are endless for it.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

99cents said:


> I'm with Hack. I'm there to change the panel and take their money. I can give the customer the number of somebody who will pretty it up.
> 
> Seriously, if I am screwing around with carpentry and moldings, it detracts from my skills as an electrician. I'm better off referring the job to someone who is an expert at that kind of stuff. If I'm a hack carpenter, why wouldn't the customer think I'm a hack electrician as well?
> 
> There was a dude here who posted photos of crown molding he installed but he was a finishing carpenter before he became an electrician. That's different.


I wish I already was good enough to be able to pull off crown like him!


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

That picture looks like it's the typical panel in a finished basement wall. What I typically find behind the wall is the foundation bumped out 4" about 3' high. That would impede the installation of a Home Depot door jam, if not make it impossible.

No one knows how that wall is framed or how much work would be required to scab on a door jam. The bottom part of the wall very well may be 3/4" furring strips shot into the foundation bump-out, they drywalled over.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> I don't think any customer wants an extra door. Just cut it open a little bit more and hang a picture.


I thought you would hang a mirror so you could smile at yourself as you collect your money  .


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> I thought you would hang a mirror so you could smile at yourself as you collect your money  .


That's a good idea. I could also fix myself up a big before the lady of the house gives me my tip :thumbup:


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

HackWork said:


> That picture looks like it's the typical panel in a finished basement wall. What I typically find behind the wall is the foundation bumped out 4" about 3' high. That would impede the installation of a Home Depot door jam, if not make it impossible.
> 
> No one knows how that wall is framed or how much work would be required to scab on a door jam. The bottom part of the wall very well may be 3/4" furring strips shot into the foundation bump-out, they drywalled over.


Good point!!! I run into that so much and the few times I walk in blind prepared for a straight wall, nope.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

HackWork said:


> *That picture looks like it's the typical panel in a finished basement wall. What I typically find behind the wall is the foundation bumped out 4" about 3' high. That would impede the installation of a Home Depot door jam, if not make it impossible.*
> 
> No one knows how that wall is framed or how much work would be required to scab on a door jam. The bottom part of the wall very well may be 3/4" furring strips shot into the foundation bump-out, they drywalled over.


Good grief you _*are *_lost.

45 second of YouTube video -- too much time to waste.

You're so far off track -- your* entire* concept of what's up -- good grief. :no:

We obviously have different skills.

What you don't want to do -- FARM OUT.

What I find idiot simple -- you can't even follow.

That's okay.

I'm not going to twist your arm -- not even your brain.

&&&&&&&&&

*FOLKS.

Trying to get the new panel back inside the old cavity is often a PITA.*

And that's a fact Jack.

When things turn ugly, cover the ENTIRE zone in a fake closet door. If your skills are so feeble -- as described above -- FARM IT OUT.

Don't struggle to cram the electrical work into rotten, ancient framing -- that may well be a load bearing wall. 

*What a PITA that is.*

Cover the entire zone up -- whether you do it -- or can do it -- or farm it out.

As this thread reveals, 45 seconds of YouTube is TOO MUCH viewing time to expend. It would be self embarrassing.

Get a handyman buddy on speed dial, and your headaches are over.

&&&&

*BTW, VERY FEW home owners want to play at GC and organize sub after sub to solve a panel upgrade.*

You ought to want a reputation of being a ONE STOP phone call for the matter.

That is plainly NOT the philosophy of everyone posting here.

I smell a fear of making a total hash out of said scheme. 

Fine. 

Hook up with a fellow. Good grief there are no-end of carpenters looking for tiny side jobs.

The micro-closet makes YOUR job idiot simple. Suddenly, you have a totally free hand.

You don't have to squeeze anything anywhere, don't have to make it pretty, are not concerned about cable lengths, can add on whole-house surge suppressors, etc.

You can cut away sheet rock or lath and plaster like a maniac, too.

You _*never*_ have to disturb old framing -- not a single stick. 

You don't have to futz about load bearing anythings.

You're out of there so fast you own head is swimming.

You don't have to make ANYTHING pretty.

&&&&&&&&

BTW, the home owner is going to pay the other guy $150+ an hour to do his thing, too.

Heh.

THINK about it. :yes:


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

I am OK with the door idea but it does seem like overkill. I would normally cut out what I need and ask them if they want me to get someone to fix it or if they want to get someone on their own. The picture idea seems like the easiest.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

If you share your shrooms you could twist my brain.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

sbrn33 said:


> I am OK with the door idea but it does seem like overkill. I would normally cut out what I need and ask them if they want me to get someone to fix it or if they want to get someone on their own. The picture idea seems like the easiest.


In the field this is what nearly all of us would do.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

The door idea is ****ing stupid, and no one would want it. Just cut the ****ing hole bigger amd go to work.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Going_Commando said:


> The door idea is ****ing stupid, and no one would want it. Just cut the ****ing hole bigger amd go to work.


You mean like yanking wires and slamming in a new panel?

Interesting concept.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

sbrn33 said:


> I am OK with the door idea but it does seem like overkill. I would normally cut out what I need and ask them if they want me to get someone to fix it or if they want to get someone on their own. The picture idea seems like the easiest.


Are pictures FREE ?

You can't get easier than surface mounted electrical where nothing you do has to look pretty.

Door packages at Big Box Hardware -- price them.

In my town they go for peanuts. And I live in high cost California.

They're less expensive than a cheap framed painting !

You think electricians want side work ?

What do you think of young framers ?

Yeah, they'd line up around the block for such milk and cream. Heh.

Don't futz about trying to squeeze your stuff inside the old confines.

Zip the old plaster// sheet rock away -- in seconds.

Toss up treated plywood -- and surface mount your cure.

DANG that's FAST.

Slap j-boxes to suit -- willy-nilly.

Let the handyman// others // door cover up the resulting eye sore.

CHEAP.

_Cheesy_ pictures in a frame. Good grief. They are NOT that cheap. 

And boy do they look cheesy.

I have decent art work around my house. The typical, acceptable, painting costs $1,000 on up. *Anything less looks like it was stolen from **a motel.*



You guys talk like a painting --* an acceptable painting* -- is CHEAP -- much cheaper than a door package.

Polar bear in a snow storm ?

Perhaps... :laughing:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Telsa, I find your rant very insulting. It is not I who is lost.

What I said is that there are a lot of basement walls like you see in the picture that have foundation bump outs at the bottom, and the drywall is attached via 3/4" furring strips to the foundation.

There is no depth for a door alone,,nevermind the stops and jam.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Make it look like a window. You can buy these cheap. Done.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

HackWork said:


> Telsa, I find your rant very insulting. It is not I who is lost.
> 
> What I said is that there are a lot of basement walls like you see in the picture that have foundation bump outs at the bottom, and the drywall is attached via 3/4" furring strips to the foundation.
> 
> There is no depth for a door alone,,nevermind the stops and jam.


1) Tommy's video is IN such a basement.

2) The interferences you describe don't exist.

Spend the 45 seconds.

The door is a fake door. It will NEVER swing both ways.

See the video.

It's only a LONGER, TALLER version of your picture frame.

And MUCH cheaper, too.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

99cents said:


> Make it look like a window. You can buy these cheap. Done.


Love it! Or even cuter, put a chalk board up behind it, let em draw a sunset then put blinds over it? I love hgtv. Who's got the popcorn?


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

99cents said:


> Make it look like a window. You can buy these cheap. Done.


Actually, that could work.

Everything depends upon the specifics.

But, you have the right idea,

Go surface mount -- and then cover the work up with the cheapest beauty solution one can devise.

A fake window can be as effective as a fake door.

&&&&

The number of young framers willing to buddy up for such side work is legion.

The key take away is -- go SURFACE MOUNT.

Then use fake beauty covers to solve the aethetics.

Windows// doors even beat swinging picture frames.

Because of factory production, modern doors are cheap, cheap, cheap.

Sixty-years ago, doors were built in the field -- EXPENSIVE.

No-one does that any more.

Commercial doors are stamped out like automobile sheet metal. They are astonishing cheap as a result.

Residential doors are cheaper, still. 

Most electricians have never shopped that aisle.

Their jaws would DROP.

They'd be even more disgusted when they see how FAST they are to punch into a home.

You SHOULD think of them as the LONG FORM picture frame.

For that's how this scheme works.

Once any electrician realizes he can cut loose -- he has TOTAL freedom of action -- the die is cast.

The panel upgrade of the OP would take -- at best -- 120 minutes -- for a slothful j-man. I'd charge at least $1,000.

Hereabouts, no-one bats an eye at $1,000 to scratch that itch.... 

I would have NO restrictions on the size of the new panel.

I would have NO concerns about cable lengths -- any of them. J-boxes would solve all. ( I try to avoid such patches, of course. )

AND I can easily justify ADD-ONS such as whole house surge suppressors -- that just happen to stick out of the surface mounted panel.

I can easily slap in the full size panel I want to deal with -- instead of futzing around trying to find a panel that can squeeze fit. 

I have ZERO difficulty strapping exiting cables... idiot simple upon a surface mounted sheet of treated board.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Majewski said:


> Love it! Or even cuter, put a chalk board up behind it, let em draw a sunset then put blinds over it? I love hgtv. Who's got the popcorn?


Now that you mention it.

That's actually NOT a bad idea.

Dang, why didn't I think of it ?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

All this talk, yet the first reply with the picture of the hackzall is still the best method. :laughing:

99cents, I'm loving my M12 Hackzall. I'm glad I got the Fuel, I don't mind the extra size. For me it's perfect since it takes over 95% of my sawzall needs.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

I sure do want the fuel version! I have the normal 12.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Majewski said:


> I sure do want the fuel version! I have the normal 12.


I may be confused, but I thought you said yesterday that you don't have M12 tools and only use the M18? ETA: My mistake, you said that you just use the M18 for everything, I thought you meant that you didn't hae M12: http://www.electriciantalk.com/f14/m18-6-0-rapid-charger-178114/index2/#post3273490

If you have the non-Fuel M12 hackzall, I would probably get the M18 version to go with it instead of the M12 Fuel.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

I use my non fuel m12 hackzall all the time. Ots nice and compact. I use the m18 sawzall for everything else. I need an m12 bandsaw though.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Get it already!


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Going_Commando said:


> I use my non fuel m12 hackzall all the time. Ots nice and compact. I use the m18 sawzall for everything else. I need an m12 bandsaw though.


That's the thing for me, the M12 Fuel Hackzall is enough for my purposes that I don't need an 18v sawzall anymore. So it kinda takes over for 2 tools.

You can't go wrong with the bandsaw.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> All this talk, yet the first reply with the picture of the hackzall is still the best method. :laughing:
> 
> 99cents, I'm loving my M12 Hackzall. I'm glad I got the Fuel, I don't mind the extra size. For me it's perfect since it takes over 95% of my sawzall needs.


.....


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

telsa said:


> The door is NEVER a load bearing creature.


You're missing the point. The door / door frame mustn't bear any load. In the video, in a new interior wall, no problem - the beam above bears the load. 

In a load bearing wall the studs can only be spaced a certain distance (depends on the load calcs and size of the studs) and in no case I know of can the span between studs be as wide as the space you need to install a door. So you put in jack studs, inside full studs, and a header - essentially a short beam - sets on the jack studs. The load above is transferred by the header beam to the jack studs and on down. 

So if there's an inspection, you could wind up with stellar electrical work but a red tag for the modifications to the framing.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

We so enjoy it when carpenters do electrical work.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

If you are going to carpenter work, why not just do it the right way? Add some framing and mount the panel out a few inches, then drywall around it. Done- a flush mounted panel, code compliant, and ready to hang a picture over.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

HackWork said:


> If you are going to carpenter work, why not just do it the right way? Add some framing and mount the panel out a few inches, then drywall around it. Done, a flush mounted panel, ready to hang a picture over.


I'll just build an addition for the new panel and make some real money


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

splatz said:


> I'll just build an addition for the new panel and make some real money


Why not? I mean lumber and pre hung doors are so cheap. 🙄


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

splatz said:


> You're missing the point. The door / door frame mustn't bear any load. In the video, in a new interior wall, no problem - the beam above bears the load.
> 
> In a load bearing wall the studs can only be spaced a certain distance (depends on the load calcs and size of the studs) and in no case I know of can the span between studs be as wide as the space you need to install a door. So you put in jack studs, inside full studs, and a header - essentially a short beam - sets on the jack studs. The load above is transferred by the header beam to the jack studs and on down.
> 
> So if there's an inspection, you could wind up with stellar electrical work but a red tag for the modifications to the framing.


NOT QUITE.

The door framing is pure beauty work -- and is decorative.

It does not pick up any load. 

It's there to hide the surface mounted electrical upgrade.

See the Tommy Silva video.

His install is so weak, he uses SCRAP lumber to assemble the 'critical' jack studs.

'Cause it's carrying NO LOAD AT ALL.

Said 'door package' is nothing more, nothing less, than a Big Picture frame scheme.

No way is anyone going to fault you for installing a fake door to no-where.

We're talking about a micro-closet that is about 4" deeper than the face of the surface mounted panel.

Sheesh, is that easy.

Watch the video.

If you don't want to frame it -- FARM IT OUT.

TONS of carpenters would rush on over for such easy cream.

It's fantastically more forgiving than ANY picture frame scheme. 

They really do require neatness.

A surface mount install FLIES into the building.

*Let's stop all posting for those who can't commit 45 seconds to watch the correct technique.*

It's so _*EASY*_.

80% of the contrary posts in this thread have plainly been written without ever seeing what I'm pitching.

1) Surface mount means you NEVER have to constrain yourself to this or that panel. Slap up what ever suits you.

2) It also means that you'll FLY through your inspection... every time.

3) It also means that you'll never face cable length issues, nor be restricted in ADD ONS.

Once you've made the shift, you'll be furious with yourselves. You've been knocking yourselves out forever -- when a swinging 'door patch' would cover every sin imaginable.

See the video.

Your time on the job is cut in half -- or more. Your fee remains unchanged.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

What?


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

HackWork said:


> If you are going to carpenter work, why not just do it the right way? Add some framing and mount the panel out a few inches, then drywall around it. Done- a flush mounted panel, code compliant, and ready to hang a picture over.


MUCH too involved.

Slap up some treated plywood // OSB.

Slap up your panel.

Make connections.

You're out... 90 minutes -- tops. $ 1,000 plus parts... :thumbsup:

Farm out the rest.

See the video.

You're shaming yourself.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

What video, no one mentioned a video.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

HackWork said:


> What video, no one mentioned a video.


Good grief: I'll repost it.

Once you see it, you'll understand. 

It's IDIOT proof. 

It's inspection proof. 

It's the picture frame scheme on steroids, that's all.

Jump to 4:27 in -- save time.






This scheme is so trivial... okay... farm it out.

Look how the electrician's freedom is unlimited.

You don't sweat ANYTHING. You don't touch ANY old work.

It's impossible to fail a framing inspection. :no:


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Either I keep reading this thread or take a sledgehammer to my head. The sledgehammer is looking really good right now.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

99cents said:


> Either I keep reading this thread or take a sledgehammer to my head. The sledgehammer is looking really good right now.


As requested: :laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

The fake closet scheme is not a universal solution, far from it.

BUT.

It's a sweet solution for pathetic OLD homes that have nasty constraints with ancient fuse boxes -- as is the case here.

The materials expense is a JOKE. < $100.


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

telsa said:


> The fake closet scheme is not a universal solution, far from it.
> 
> BUT.
> 
> ...


why the hell did you PM me this?


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

The home owner just bought the house from a carpenter/Woodworker. So these touches are throughout the whole house which is very nice , very detailed. I issued him an estimate with my carpenters price to finish the end product just like it is now with a door... I will have to check with local inspector about location 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Good luck!


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

Also , this is a highly finished basement... the finished trim and door is what the customer wants... the quote definitely has more time involved compared with a flush mount Installation


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

HackWork said:


> All this talk, yet the first reply with the picture of the hackzall is still the best method. :laughing:
> 
> 99cents, I'm loving my M12 Hackzall. I'm glad I got the Fuel, I don't mind the extra size. For me it's perfect since it takes over 95% of my sawzall needs.


That M12 hackzaw is a ****ing joke. I threw mine across the shop yesterday. I can cut faster with a hacksaw. Gonna go out and buy a real sawzall today.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Oh dear.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

sbrn33 said:


> That M12 hackzaw is a ****ing joke. I threw mine across the shop yesterday. I can cut faster with a hacksaw. Gonna go out and buy a real sawzall today.


Can I have it?


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

99cents said:


> Can I have it?


Probably, I did take the battery out before I threw it. Hell the piece of **** would even cut a ****ing 5/16 bolt. It maybe could cut drywall but I can do that with a keyhole saw faster.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Do you want a hug? I can organize a hug from someone other than me..... Maybe from meadow?


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Meadow would probably be a really good hugger....


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

sbrn33 said:


> That M12 hackzaw is a ****ing joke. I threw mine across the shop yesterday. I can cut faster with a hacksaw. Gonna go out and buy a real sawzall today.


I think I bought it on a Sunday and returned it on my way home from work Monday.


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## Signal1 (Feb 10, 2016)

WronGun said:


> Also , this is a highly finished basement... the finished trim and door is what the customer wants... the quote definitely has more time involved compared with a flush mount Installation
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yeah but did you watch the video??? You know...... the one with Tommy?


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

sbrn33 said:


> Probably, I did take the battery out before I threw it. Hell the piece of **** would even cut a ****ing 5/16 bolt. It maybe could cut drywall but I can do that with a keyhole saw faster.


There's something about you and Hackzalls that don't get along.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Signal1 said:


> Yeah but did you watch the video??? You know...... the one with Tommy?


Always with 'the cuts.'


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

sbrn33 said:


> Meadow would probably be a really good hugger....


Meadow is possessive, in the clutch. Don't come between him and Steve. :no:

:whistling2:


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## Signal1 (Feb 10, 2016)

telsa said:


> Always with 'the cuts.'


Just messing around Telsa.

I've met Tom on several occasions. He's from Lexington MA and attends trade shows in the area. He and his nephew own the company and actually still do a lot of the work themselves. Still wearing the tools.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Just did a estimate tonight, frigging panels are SAME AS THIS OP! lol..... Imma hack that wood outta maw way!


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

So the client hired me but he wants the panel moved 12 feet to the right of the current situation into the large laundry closet, so this current space will be a large junction box. I'm trying to find any objections to having a panel in a laundry closet ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

WronGun said:


> So the client hired me but he wants the panel moved 12 feet to the right of the current situation into the large laundry closet, so this current space will be a large junction box. I'm trying to find any objections to having a panel in a laundry closet ?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm Canadian and only know Canadian code but wouldn't you have an issue splicing the service conductors? Running a sub to the new location would be okay.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

The whole service is going to be 100% brand new , only thing splicing in a 12 by 12 or larger would be branches 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

WronGun said:


> The whole service is going to be 100% brand new , only thing splicing in a 12 by 12 or larger would be branches
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Sounds like you have yourself a nice little job. Are you using terminal blocks?


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

Ya this will be a bigger type job as far as services go ... PVC Installation is 25' , and overall just alot goin on. I haven't thought about using terminal blocks to be honest 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

WronGun said:


> Ya this will be a bigger type job as far as services go ... PVC Installation is 25' , and overall just alot goin on. I haven't thought about using terminal blocks to be honest
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The termail blocks do come handy in few spots when I done few reloacated services like that.

the cost of termail block useally justifed the cost over the numbers of wirenuts or mars ( shorthand for marttes spelling ) 

it make it look more nicer in the splice box.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

As long as the panel has proper accessibility, you should be OK. 

I assume you're going to bring the service entrance horizontally across the outside of the house and then come in behind the panel?


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

This was my next question.... the area where the panel is now.... right below it is the foundation sill.... there is room to pull my Service entrance and branch circuits across the foundation sill from inside that wall.... however the only place I will have access for support is at both ends only , not in middle behind wall.... 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

You can't bring your service entrance in where the existing panel is, it needs to be as short of a run inside of the house as possible which means you need to run it outside of the house and then enter behind the new panel location.

As for the branch circuits, you don't have to worry about support when you snake those inside of finished walls.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

WronGun said:


> This was my next question.... the area where the panel is now.... right below it is the foundation sill.... there is room to pull my Service entrance and branch circuits across the foundation sill from inside that wall.... however the only place I will have access for support is at both ends only , not in middle behind wall....
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Time for you to meet Mr. Strut.










If you can't figure out how to chop blocking, Mr. Strut is ready to hand.

Rarely seen in a residential setting, he can solve all kinds of touchy builds -- as you can slide you panel to and fro -- and don't have to be a particularly good carpenter.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

BTW, the concept of furring out a wall seems alien to residential electricians.

In some old basements -- with antique rock foundations, it's a consideration.

In this concept, there is no attempt at making things look pretty.

Instead, you just frame up for a surface mounted panel -- putting your studs further forward into the space -- so you're not fussing around with old, scarcely mortared, stone foundations. 

In this scheme, you're using nothing but treated lumber -- and nothing more than enough to support your panel and the strapping required for its cables.

For homes built a century before Tesla, this is the cheap and quick solution. You may find that you have to pour a 'puddle floor' ( a sack of redimix ) so that you've got something more than dirt to anchor your bottom plate to.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

I'm know Mr. Strut , 10 yrs doing commercial only... but i don't see how Mr strut is going to help me here.... I'm just worried about the inspector saying something about all the wires laying on the foundation sill behind the finished wall , if that even is an issue 


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

WronGun said:


> I'm know Mr. Strut , 10 yrs doing commercial only... but i don't see how Mr strut is going to help me here.... I'm just worried about the inspector saying something about all the wires laying on the foundation sill behind the finished wall , if that even is an issue
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


:shifty:


HackWork said:


> As for the branch circuits, you don't have to worry about support when you snake those inside of finished walls.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

telsa said:


> BTW, the concept of furring out a wall seems alien to residential electricians.
> 
> In some old basements -- with antique rock foundations, it's a consideration.
> 
> ...




The panel being supported isn't the issue I have a big open wall for that .... I'm talking about extending the cables 20' over from the existing location.... they will be in that tiny closet coming from a 12 by 12 can going 20' to the right basically laying on the foundation sill behind that wall... only place I can get staples is at the closet space and where they poke out 20' over to the right








Right below these panels the foundation sill sticks out 5 inches and I have a small space to get my service entrance cable and 22 branch circuits over 20' to the right 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

telsa said:


> BTW, the concept of furring out a wall seems alien to residential electricians.
> 
> In some old basements -- with antique rock foundations, it's a consideration.
> 
> ...


I've done plenty of panels in rubble foundations, and never framed a whole wall to do it. A couple 2x4s lagged to the floor joists above with a 3/4 advantech backerboard is plenty. If you want to get fancy with some long tapcons or whatever into the mortar joints (if there are any) can firm things up at the bottom. Do you have a lot of rubble basement walls in California?


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

WronGun said:


> telsa said:
> 
> 
> > BTW, the concept of furring out a wall seems alien to residential electricians.
> ...


You could drop your service entrance cable to a 200a enclosed breaker in that spot, then fish your SER behind that wall, along with your branch circuits. Slap a pull box next to the enclosed breaker for your splices and you should be g2g.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Going_Commando said:


> You could drop your service entrance cable to a 200a enclosed breaker in that spot, then fish your SER behind that wall, along with your branch circuits. Slap a pull box next to the enclosed breaker for your splices and you should be g2g.


A 200A disco is pretty tall due to the wire bending space needed. He would probably have to open the wall to fit it. Plus that would increase the cost.

I would just run PVC laterally down the side of the house to the new location.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

Going_Commando said:


> You could drop your service entrance cable to a 200a enclosed breaker in that spot, then fish your SER behind that wall, along with your branch circuits. Slap a pull box next to the enclosed breaker for your splices and you should be g2g.




Just wondering why into a 200a breaker box ? There will be a disconnect right behind this closet at the existing meter location and another in the panel 20' to the right of the meter 


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

WronGun said:


> Going_Commando said:
> 
> 
> > You could drop your service entrance cable to a 200a enclosed breaker in that spot, then fish your SER behind that wall, along with your branch circuits. Slap a pull box next to the enclosed breaker for your splices and you should be g2g.
> ...


Didnt realize you already had a disco outside. Fish away! Why not do an MLO panel in the basement if you have a disco outside?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

If you have an outside disconnect already, you won't need one in the first location. You will also be able to run the SER cable inside of the wall. 

Remember, that's not the service entrance cable, the service ended outside, that is just a feeder and can run anywhere in the house.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

HackWork said:


> A 200A disco is pretty tall due to the wire bending space needed. He would probably have to open the wall to fit it. Plus that would increase the cost.
> 
> 
> 
> I would just run PVC laterally down the side of the house to the new location.











the existing service , now from the outside the new location in 20' left of the meter.... I could run PVC laterally , or I could just move the whole service to the left , but what is the issue with my idea? All I gotta do is poke in snake behind the wall and done









Point of attachment will stay the same but I would come down right before the deck, the new location is right below the deck 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Going_Commando said:


> I've done plenty of panels in rubble foundations, and never framed a whole wall to do it. A couple 2x4s lagged to the floor joists above with a 3/4 advantech backerboard is plenty. If you want to get fancy with some long tapcons or whatever into the mortar joints (if there are any) can firm things up at the bottom. Do you have a lot of rubble basement walls in California?


We have a fair amount of rubble -- but only after a solid riot.

Your scheme is virtually identical to my scheme.

BTW, Placerville -- just up the road -- has the oldest hardware store west of the Mississippi river. So, here and there, we do run into really %$#@ crawl spaces and so-called basements.

It's not a market I care to pursue, though. My knees are shot.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

HackWork said:


> If you have an outside disconnect already, you won't need one in the first location. You will also be able to run the SER cable inside of the wall.
> 
> Remember, that's not the service entrance cable, the service ended outside, *that is just a feeder and can run anywhere in the house*.


That's the solution to no end of weird old homes.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

If you are installing a disconnect outside, then the service ends there, you can do your idea of running that SER feeder cable behind the wall.

But without the outside disconnect, the service entrance cable would not be able to run 20' inside of the wall to the main panel, which serves as the service disconnect. The service entrance needs to come into the house as close to the panel as possible.

Some areas specify an actual amount of feet, such as 3' or 7'. But there is no way that 20' is acceptable.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

WronGun said:


> the existing service , now from the outside the new location in 20' left of the meter.... I could run PVC laterally , or I could just move the whole service to the left , but what is the issue with my idea? All I gotta do is poke in snake behind the wall and done
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You used the phrase "service entrance cable" where it is a feeder if there is a disconnect outside. I'd slap a 200A meter main where that 100Aer is now, then go to town and fish the SER from the old panel location to the new one. That way the homeowner doesn't have to worry about touching up paint behind the old meter socket and riser.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Going_Commando said:


> You used the phrase "service entrance cable" where it is a feeder if there is a disconnect outside. I'd slap a 200A meter main where that 100Aer is now, then go to town and fish the SER from the old panel location to the new one. That way the homeowner doesn't have to worry about touching up paint behind the old meter socket and riser.


This is good advice.

If he can't find a PoCo compliant meter/main, I would suggest using this: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-D...cuit-Breaker-Enclosure-QOM2E2200NRB/100210055

It's a great price for a Square D QO. I've used it many times and like it.


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## B-Nabs (Jun 4, 2014)

telsa said:


> Are pictures FREE ?
> 
> You can't get easier than surface mounted electrical where nothing you do has to look pretty.
> 
> ...


I can't help picturing the sham-wow guy giving this pitch.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

B-Nabs said:


> I can't help picturing the sham-wow guy giving this pitch.


That boy is always cleaning up.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

B-Nabs said:


> I can't help picturing the sham-wow guy giving this pitch.



Lol.,, but just try to veido it and speed it up at least twice speed it blurs right there .,,,


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