# LED troffer retrofit ki



## chris.b (Jan 28, 2013)

How long to replace t12 troffer with retrofit kit? Average guy, how many in an hour?

Not my usual deal, the kits will be furnished and all I have to bid is a per price cost.


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## 3D Electric (Mar 24, 2013)

chris.b said:


> How long to replace t12 troffer with retrofit kit? Average guy, how many in an hour?
> 
> Not my usual deal, the kits will be furnished and all I have to bid is a per price cost.


We bid some at 20 min per fixture. That would include moving the ladder, fixing some questionable wiring inside the fixture, etc.


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## chris.b (Jan 28, 2013)

That is exactly what I was thinking. 3/hr. $30 per? There is about 750 lights in 3 locations.


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

chris.b said:


> That is exactly what I was thinking. 3/hr. $30 per? There is about *750 lights in 3 locations*.


oh boy. I hope they try it out in a well used conference room or something and evaluate it for a while before committing to such a large decorative lighting project.

If you happen to have a source for identical fixture that's already got many thousands of hours of use, it's a good idea to compare them side by side and see how different it looks to the brand new one. This gives you a good idea of color shift and what will inevitably happen if they are spot replaced down the road.


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## chris.b (Jan 28, 2013)

Electric_Light said:


> oh boy. I hope they try it out in a well used conference room or something and evaluate it for a while before committing to such a large decorative lighting project.
> 
> If you happen to have a source for identical fixture that's already got many thousands of hours of use, it's a good idea to compare them side by side and see how different it looks to the brand new one. This gives you a good idea of color shift and what will inevitably happen if they are spot replaced down the road.


This will not be my problem. All I have to do is show up and install. Any complaints will go straight to the supplier. Unfortunately, I am will be doing these at $22/light.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

chris.b said:


> That is exactly what I was thinking. 3/hr. $30 per? There is about 750 lights in 3 locations.


I think you will get closer to 10 per hour when the guys peak.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Electric_Light said:


> oh boy. I hope they try it out in a well used conference room or something and evaluate it for a while before committing to such a large decorative lighting project.
> 
> If you happen to have a source for identical fixture that's already got many thousands of hours of use, it's a good idea to compare them side by side and see how different it looks to the brand new one. This gives you a good idea of color shift and what will inevitably happen if they are spot replaced down the road.


This is very good advice if your customer is asking you for recommendations. We have a job coming up in January and we are not using LED because color could be an issue. It's an easy change with fluorescent.


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

chris.b said:


> How long to replace t12 troffer with retrofit kit? Average guy, how many in an hour? Not my usual deal, the kits will be furnished and all I have to bid is a per price cost.


 I recently replaced 44 (2) light F32T8 with 120 volt LED bulbs. My self and a helper did it with 40 man hrs. I had to replace and install non-shunting tomb stones and rewire. Don't know if yours will be similar.


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## chris.b (Jan 28, 2013)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> I recently replaced 44 (2) light F32T8 with 120 volt LED bulbs. My self and a helper did it with 40 man hrs. I had to replace and install non-shunting tomb stones and rewire. Don't know if yours will be similar.


That is 1.1/hr?!!! Not farking way. How much did you charge per light?


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## chris.b (Jan 28, 2013)

99cents said:


> This is very good advice if your customer is asking you for recommendations. We have a job coming up in January and we are not using LED because color could be an issue. It's an easy change with fluorescent.


I am subing the install from an energy saving lighting company. I can't very well tell the customer that their own product sucks.


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

chris.b said:


> That is 1.1/hr?!!! Not farking way. How much did you charge per light?


I'm giving you a great scenario. Don't take advantage of this. Your lucky if you have about 5hrs of productivity in one day. If I based it on 20 min a fixture I would lose money. I charged $2200.00.


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> I recently replaced 44 (2) light F32T8 with *120 volt LED bulbs.* My self and a helper did it with 40 man hrs. *I had to replace and install non-shunting tomb stones and rewire. *Don't know if yours will be similar.


Can you tell us the make and model or link us to the product? Although I understand if you don't want to name it especially if you're installing it on behalf of the lamp vendor :laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:

I would steer clear of products that require those modifications for many reasons. 

The only reason to install them is when the solicitation is for:

-Install customer supplied parts 

-Specifications requires "lamps shall be brand *X*, model # *123*" solid state light emitting decorations retrofit" 

and you're only accountable to respond "I *installed what you spec'd,* the way you asked" 

Even then, if they're not UL listed for this use I would avoid making the said modifications to avoid liability. You would not bid on a job to wire up a circuit using non-compliant materials. Rewired fixtures can get very dangerous. 

I don't understand why you'd need non-shunting tombstones with an LED lamp unless it is powered from one side like sticking the end into a receptacle and using the other socket only as a stand-off. Some non-UL listed kits are crude and makes the entire fault current available at tombstones. 

At some point, the product may fail and a normal fluorescent lamp may get installed. A stiff line can have enough fault current to blow up the lamp on that end. 277 and 347v line may actually instant start across the lamp under some conditions and have enough fault current to explode the lamp once the arc is struck. If the fixture have exposed lamps, even a slight crack created in glass or damage to sockets from a high level fault current can cause the lamps to fall off and hit someone days or weeks later. 



Salvatoreg02 said:


> I'm giving you a great scenario. Don't take advantage of this. Your lucky if you have about 5hrs of productivity in one day. If I based it on 20 min a fixture I would lose money. I charged $2200.00.


The time needed to install those funky LED bulbs that require rewiring takes more time than ballast change outs especially with four wire sockets. The time it takes totally depends on the particular design of the fixture. 

LED lamps that require rewiring is proprietary and there's no consistency in wiring between different brands. So if the lamps fails and exact replacement isn't on hand, lamps matching the wiring have to be ordered in. Rewiring a fixture to replacement lamp and having wiring inconsistent with other fixtures in the area is clearly a terrible idea.


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## Lighting Retro (Aug 1, 2009)

I'd like to see the kit before giving input. I've seen some install in 5 minutes or less, and some much longer where old tombstones need to be replaced, fixture rewired, etc. That plays a huge role in time factors. Do you have info on the kit? You may do very well at $22. The reality is that is typically what lighting retrofits will bear if you are planning on 20 minutes a fixture. Lighting is way more competitive than other electrical work.


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

Lighting Retro said:


> I'd like to see the kit before giving input. I've seen some install in 5 minutes or less, and some much longer where old tombstones need to be replaced, fixture rewired, etc. That plays a huge role in time factors. Do you have info on the kit? You may do very well at $22. The reality is that is typically what lighting retrofits will bear if you are planning on 20 minutes a fixture. Lighting is way more competitive than other electrical work.


LEDs do most of the heat making. The best available NEMA Premium ballasts are pushing nearly 95% efficiency. A ballast that can be larger, located remotely and serve multiple lamps than a power supply built into each tube. 

Some newer drop-in LEDs require the existing magnetic fluorescent ballast,because it is utilized as a power supply. It's just replacing the light bulb. it's often completely pointless, because you're barely matching the INITIAL efficacy of the best available fluorescent lamps, same or lesser life, many times the price.. plenty more disadvantages to name and only a few advantages that only apply for certain applications.

I think they're just void filling products. Some products are used to fill requirements in specifications no matter how pointless the requirements are. 

Some LED tube applications I can think of :
Public Relations stunt. 

Satisfying obligations to court, such as fulfilling the commitment to spend $xx million on environmentally themed projects as a part of environmental violation settlement. The money savings here would be seen as what it would cost them to pay fines in cash vs incremental cost of LED drop-in bulbs over the same efficiency fluorescent lamps at a location that's due for a re-lamp anyways.


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## Lighting Retro (Aug 1, 2009)

Most products don't work with the existing ballast in place, and I personally think leaving the ballast is a terrible idea. Just trying to get LED updates at relamp prices. 

lamps come in both configs you mentioned earlier that require either shunted or unshunted sockets, and some kits have no sockets at all. 

Quite the variety available, so hard to give good feedback on time per fixture without more info.


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

Lighting Retro said:


> Most products don't work with the existing ballast in place, and I personally think leaving the ballast is a terrible idea.


Most products of yesterday don't. CREE, Osram Sylvania and Philips all offer drop-ins that require instant start electronic ballast. LEDs can not operate without a power supply which means the driver will take up space inside the lamp. Electronic ballast is a great constant current power supply. 

Wire to room lumens per watt is the same or better than a rewire type. Remember that a four lamp T8 ballast is more efficient than four one lamp ones? The same advantage applies here. The ballast operates as a very good power supply. 



> Just trying to get LED updates at relamp prices.
> 
> lamps come in both configs you mentioned earlier that require either shunted or unshunted sockets, and some kits have no sockets at all.
> 
> Quite the variety available, so hard to give good feedback on time per fixture without more info.


The added labor makes the makeover more expensive and the more expensive it is, the less reason there is to do this project. It's a fad. Like I said, long term performance is inferior to the best T8 fluorescent today, but lamps are about ten times the price. 

Lumens per watt over life time or the hours of life. Both inferior to best T8. 

When the decoration bulb fails, it can't be replaced with a fluorescent and if someone tries, the line voltage right across one end can make a fluorescent lamp explode. If the fixture's reflective surfaces are ruined, they should be replaced and without using decoration diodes. 

Why do you some people insist on using LEDs? 
If the power saving comes from reduced light output, same can be accomplished by pulling one of the lamps


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## Texas_LED_Guru (Mar 1, 2013)

Electric_Light said:


> oh boy. I hope they try it out in a well used conference room or something and evaluate it for a while before committing to such a large decorative lighting project.
> 
> If you happen to have a source for identical fixture that's already got many thousands of hours of use, it's a good idea to compare them side by side and see how different it looks to the brand new one. This gives you a good idea of color shift and what will inevitably happen if they are spot replaced down the road.


What exactly are you implying?

Every light source either has some form of color shift or lumens depreciation over time. Keywords are how much & after how long?


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

Texas_LED_Guru said:


> What exactly are you implying?
> 
> Every light source either has *some form of color shift or lumens depreciation over time.* Keywords are how much & after how long?


Correct. Lumen loss from least to most: 
Low pressure sodium
F32T8 HPT8 and in theory... some of extremely expensive LEDs
standard T8 
T12 
HPS and CFL
LEDs and MH
,,,,,,,,,,,,,, LEDs 

The chromatic stability and lumen maintenance of fluorescent lamps are very good and predictable through true time tested experience.

LEDs are not, it's forecasted, like the weather.


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## Texas_LED_Guru (Mar 1, 2013)

Electric_Light said:


> Texas_LED_Guru said:
> 
> 
> > What exactly are you implying?
> ...


Flourescents suck in cold environments. I'm replacing a 5 door cooler right now swapping out HIGHLY outdated inefficient F60T12's for LED. It makes no sense to drop $20 per flourescent bulb when light output will drop 50% the second they come on. Not to mention the CRI is a joke at 60-70 max. The worst LED will give you at least 80 CRI.


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

Texas_LED_Guru said:


> Flourescents suck in cold environments. I'm replacing a 5 door cooler right now swapping out HIGHLY outdated inefficient F60T12's for LED. It makes no sense to drop $20 per flourescent bulb when light output will drop 50% the second they come on. *Not to mention the CRI is a joke at 60-70 max. The worst LED will give you at least 80 CRI.*


This is a special application which LEDs actually have distinctive advantage over standard fluorescent lamps. The statement regarding CRI is incorrect which I've high lighted.


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