# Wire number changing number help.



## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

I need help finding wordage on wire marking.
Issue: Contractor marked field wires with cable numbers not wire numbers, and not unique numbers to boot.
I have this in my bid contract "Identify both ends of wire with the same unique wire number."
Maybe 2000 wires or more. General wants to know why I am holding up final payment on a 39 mil project.

What I need: Reference that states wire numbers do not change at terminal strips. I am trying to explain to non electricians that the wire number only changes at a device. I am looking thru NFPA79 but don't have the searchable one.
Also looking on ISA site.









I know you guys might be able to help @JRaef or @paulengr

Thanks
Cowboy


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## bill39 (Sep 4, 2009)

IMO the contract language should be something like “All wires shall be labeled with the number shown on the drawings. All spare wires shall be individually labeled with the same number on both ends.”

There should also be language specifying what type of wire labels shall be used (heat shrink or whatever). Also, there needs to be a specification for someone to permanently update the drawings.


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

bill39 said:


> IMO the contract language should be something like “All wires shall be labeled with the number shown on the drawings. All spare wires shall be individually labeled with the same number on both ends.”
> 
> There should also be language specifying what type of wire labels shall be used (heat shrink or whatever). Also, there needs to be a specification for someone to permanently update the drawings.


Yes that stuff is in there I just gave the brief of it. I'm government so my electrical specs are 391 pages and growing.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Does your contract reference NFPA 79?


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

splatz said:


> Does your contract reference NFPA 79?


Don't know if it reference's 79, but was just looking for printed example of wire numbers don't change at devices.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Here's from NFPA 79, not current 



> 13.2 Identification of Conductors.
> 13.2.1 General Requirements.
> 13.2.1.1 Conductors shall be identified at each termination
> by number, letter, color (either solid or with one or more
> ...


They could say that the cable conductors are identified by the _combination_ of the cable number and the color of the insulation, so I don't think NFPA 79 is going to be enough, but it's likely buried in the specs somewhere.


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

splatz said:


> Here's from NFPA 79, not current
> 
> 
> 
> They could say that the cable conductors are identified by the _combination_ of the cable number and the color of the insulation, so I don't think NFPA 79 is going to be enough, but it's likely buried in the specs somewhere.


Yea I found that one, and thought the same thing.
Technically they are marked the same on both ends the just did not keep the same number. I know somewhere I read wire numbers do not change at terminal strips.


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## Yankee77 (Oct 5, 2020)

........


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## Viggmundir (Sep 13, 2019)

Sorry I don't have a specific answer that will help you. I wonder if there is an actual regulation on it, or is it a best/common practice that people just do?


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

They could have at least broken it down further and an ID'ed which wire in each cable, C-#####-#-#. If the specs call for unique labels I'd say you got them on that at least.

On new builds on major rehabs we have schedules of conduit, cable and wire labels to avoid confusion like that. It's nice to put it all in the evil Excel so you can just copy it right out of a cell to the label printer.


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## MotoGP1199 (Aug 11, 2014)

Do the drawings show the terminal strip and wire numbers/cable numbers changing?


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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

What reason did the contractor have for doing it the way he did?

Seems like a lot more work coming up with an alternative numbering system rather than just using the one that is already there?


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

There is no Code requirement and GE is the worlds worst since wires have different numbers at each end. You need to use your contract language.

As to why it’s important using GE as an example the wire numbering system is based on the drawings. Sheet-Y-X on a grid system. But the number is for the far end of the wire. So if a wire starts at sheet 3, rung 3, column C and ends at sheet 8, rung 12, column F you get 0303C on one end and 0812F on the other end but the numbers are destinations so on any given component the numbers look “scrambled” and not in any order. And the numbers change even on terminal strips. This is unlike everyone else where “L1” is usually the same everywhere it is used and you can easily locate line and neutral wiring without a drawing.


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## SWDweller (Dec 9, 2020)

GE is not the only one to change numbers on a terminal strip. I have seen it done a lot water treatment plants. Never made any sense to me. 
I agree it is time to read the specs and find out what is stated.


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

I really don't know anything about autocad but when an EE is setting up a drawing and comes to a terminal strip the wire numbers change. The installer was probably just following the print and that is why the numbers change. Wild guess on my part but really why would it matter if both ends of each conductor had the same numbering system.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Wire number vs terminal number?
I would expect to have the wire number remain the same and the number on the terminal block to remain the same.
E.g. Wire number 1234, lands or terminates on TB1- 104. 
I can see someone making a wiring harness for a very specific job where the TB numbers were marked on the wire.
Good luck with this one.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

The last time I had a humungous project which required forty or so terminations at micronodes of which there were around two thousand of I had drawings done by a full time staff member and cables were also labeled - showing origin as per drawing on the left side of a dash line in our termination code and destination termination on the right side of the dash mark. Both ends of the conductor or cable got the same label. You always could tell the start and the finish of each wire by the label on it. Made things very easy to troubleshoot in the two years of 24 hour maintenance of system as per the original contract on the job. This whole thing was done in Filemaker, (except the shop drawings which were auto-cad) which is why on occasion you hear from me extolling the virtues of that program in electrical systems work. We also tracked every single component in this system the same way, and the pieces of equipment not installed by us , but controlled by us also got unique numbers that we designed and tracked in Filemaker as well.


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

Here is a sample of what the print shows. They did not carry the wire numbers over to the device.
Contractor marked the wires C-P7150 on the field side the same both the 11400A and 11400B. This is just an example of of a 2 wire cable they did the same with four and 6 wire cable. All numbers are the same using cable # , not unique. 



















@Cow @Easy I have 5 treatment plants and 60 remote sites, all marked with wire numbers relating to PLC's. When my guy go to troubleshoot at 3:00 AM on a call-in is it right that they have to try to figure out how this one plant was wired. Also all the vendor prints don't even show cable numbers only wire numbers that don't match the cable numbers, about 20 panels. There are 20 PLC's in this system.


Jlarson said:


> They could have at least broken it down further and an ID'ed which wire in each cable, C-#####-#-#. If the specs call for unique labels I'd say you got them on that at least.
> On new builds on major rehabs we have schedules of conduit, cable and wire labels to avoid confusion like that. It's nice to put it all in the evil Excel so you can just copy it right out of a cell to the label printer.


That was the problem, the engineer gave the contractor a list of cable numbers and the contractor assumed they were wire numbers.


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## bill39 (Sep 4, 2009)

Southeast Power said:


> Wire number vs terminal number?
> I would expect to have the wire number remain the same and the number on the terminal block to remain the same.
> E.g. Wire number 1234, lands or terminates on TB1- 104.
> I can see someone making a wiring harness for a very specific job where the TB numbers were marked on the wire.
> Good luck with this one.


The terminal blocks are usually too small to have the long label used by typical PLC addresses or tags. They can be 10 or more digits long, which will not fit on a terminal block.

Electricians around here use “pull sheets” with the cable number/conductor number on them. They then marry that up to the prints. From the OP’s photo that looks like what was done. Classic example of lack of communication on what the final number should have been applied to the wire.

Make them change it to match the drawings.


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## bill39 (Sep 4, 2009)

Wait a minute, I just saw where the OP posted a picture of the print and compared it to what the EC installed. Seems to be ambiguous as to which wire number should be installed. 

I believe the EC would be due an extra if asked to change the wire #’s unless there are some RFI’s somewhere saying differently.


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

@bill39 Yes it looks that way on *that* print but on the vendors prints it shows wire numbers the same at both ends as it should be.
The contractor did not put in a RFI and made that decision on his own.


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## bill39 (Sep 4, 2009)

just the cowboy said:


> @bill39 Yes it looks that way on *that* print but on the vendors prints it shows wire numbers the same at both ends as it should be.
> The contractor did not put in a RFI and made that decision on his own.


But then the question becomes which drawing is correct? Sounds like an uphill battle for getting him to change #•s without being paid extra $$$.


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## wcord (Jan 23, 2011)

Why didn't they shrink the tubing? 
Whenever we did controls, the heat shrink was not supposed to be able to slide off.


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

wcord said:


> Why didn't they shrink the tubing?
> Whenever we did controls, the heat shrink was not supposed to be able to slide off.


Yes bad workmanship, my specs say it should fit tight and not move.
Whole project is a mess with workmanship and they wonder why I don't want to sign final.
I had a meeting today and brought all involved parties in and it was a finger pointing mess.
I showed them two full Control Logix racks with L85e processors that the top of the rack was full of chips and wire scraps.
Told them it was $20,000 or more of parts waiting to let the magic smoke out and shut down the plant. Contractor that did it was just going to reach out and brush them off not caring that they could fall into processor card.

cowboy


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

I've been following this thread from the beginning.

I have worked extensively with cable markers on one side of a terminal strip and panel wire markers on the other. I don't know....I actually like that style of marking, makes it easy to differentiate between field wiring and panel wiring and I've always found it an aid to troubleshooting or modifying in the future. Although, I would have added -1, -2, -3 etc to the cable markers regardless of color. I've always been provided with termination schedules or made up my own if not provided.

I'm not aware of any regulation about wire markers at terminals.

I've seen plenty of unshrunk markers on field wiring. I myself sometimes leave them not shrunk until after commissioning. But I always shrink them after. I have also shrunk plenty of factory panel wire markers.


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## wcord (Jan 23, 2011)

just the cowboy said:


> Yes bad workmanship, my specs say it should fit tight and not move.
> Whole project is a mess with workmanship and they wonder why I don't want to sign final.
> I had a meeting today and brought all involved parties in and it was a finger pointing mess.
> I showed them two full Control Logix racks with L85e processors that the top of the rack was full of chips and wire scraps.
> ...


Had a project where shavings fell across the 600v terminal strips.
We had made holes with KO cutters with cardboard and cloth between the metal and terminals. Then we vacuumed out the compartment. Pictures were taken before during and after.
About a month after we had finished that area the control contractor came in, used a unibit with no protection and left the shavings there.
Of course, the **** blew up in more ways than one.
The building maintenance supervisor knew how careful and conscientious we were during the entire project and backed us all the way.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Yep, I spent yesterday sorting a similar mess someone created at a treatment plant. I'm not even sure if one panel I was looking for exists lol.



just the cowboy said:


> ...contractor assumed...


Ah there it is.


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## Lone Crapshooter (Nov 8, 2008)

At the plant the engineer came up with a identification method that was confusing to everyone but him.

the terminal you see now - wire number - where the wire came from. For my money it should have been
where the wire came from - wire number - the terminal you see now..
What I am trying to say is that the number closest the terminal should be the number of the that terminal regardless of which side of the terminal strip you are terminating on.
After questioning him about it I found out that he was always 100% correct and his work was always above reproach.
LC


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## bill39 (Sep 4, 2009)

Man, there are so many ways to do this and I have worked with most of them. My thoughts on what works best in no particular order:

The wire tag should remain the same from beginning to end. This avoids confusion with a hidden or undocumented junction box somewhere.
The wire number should relate to where it is shown on the prints. I prefer page number-line number system (ex. 135107-1, page 135, line 107, 1st wire). This helps with troubleshooting.Do not make the number too long.
The longer it is just increases the chances for typos or misreading the number in a dark cabinet.


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

How many labels are we talking about? Will it really take that long for the contractor to fix this? 

But, I think there is more to this than just the labels. It feels like cowboy wants a pound of flesh. It sounds like he might be justified.


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

oldsparky52 said:


> How many labels are we talking about? Will it really take that long for the contractor to fix this?
> 
> But, I think there is more to this than just the labels. It feels like cowboy wants a pound of flesh. It sounds like he might be justified.


2000 -3000 wire labels or more. Heatshrink so they need to be removed sleeved and reconnected


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

oldsparky52 said:


> How many labels are we talking about? Will it really take that long for the contractor to fix this?
> 
> But, I think there is more to this than just the labels. It feels like cowboy wants a pound of flesh. It sounds like he might be justified.


You would be surprised how much I am letting slide


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## bill39 (Sep 4, 2009)

Will disconnecting the wires to replace the labels, and then re-terminating them require you to recommission anything?

Also won’t power need to be turned off to everything? The scope of work just keeps growing.


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

bill39 said:


> Will disconnecting the wires to replace the labels, and then re-terminating them require you to recommission anything?
> 
> Also won’t power need to be turned off to everything? The scope of work just keeps growing.


If it is not being accepted then it should not be being used , no?


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

bill39 said:


> Will disconnecting the wires to replace the labels, and then re-terminating them require you to recommission anything?
> 
> Also won’t power need to be turned off to everything? The scope of work just keeps growing.


Yes power will need to be off and production shut down, I tried to bring it up before startup but GC just blew it off they wanted to make startup.
As for commissioning I agreed to save time if they only remove one wire at a time and use skilled help I won't make them retest. The commissioning was a joke anyway that was a battle I did not pick to fight, that I am not happy with either.
Cowboy


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

oldsparky52 said:


> If it is not being accepted then it should not be being used , no?


I have been fighting this for months, it is now producing 4 millions gallons of water a day they wanted to prove the system before heavy use time. You know nobody cares about the electrician till it breaks.

Cowboy


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

just the cowboy said:


> Yes power will need to be off and production shut down, I tried to bring it up before startup but GC just blew it off they wanted to make startup.
> As for commissioning I agreed to save time if they only remove one wire at a time and use skilled help I won't make them retest. The commissioning was a joke anyway that was a battle I did not pick to fight, that I am not happy with either.
> Cowboy


Based on what you've told us about these guys, I bet you or someone you trust will be watching them like a hawk. 

So, do these guys don't know, don't know to ask, or just don't care, or ... ?


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

Well Cowboy, I sure am sorry you are having to suffer these workers.


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

I love 40 million dollar projects, all the finger pointing. 
The EC is blaming the EE who issued a cable list.
The EE is blaming the system integrator for not catching it on their end on I/O checks.
The integrator is blaming the EC for not knowing how to read prints.
The GC is blaming the project manager .
*I'm blaming them all for not listening to me from the start.*

I asked them all in a meeting yesterday " If you bought a new house would you accept this work" You should of seen the faces because what could they say. I said " well think of this as my 40 million dollar mansion I'm buying".
Cowboy


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

i will trade you your 40 million water plant with dodge wire numbers for our 60 million turd farm with mcc buckets that's do not match the disconnect/equipment in the field.
Yours will only cause a little frustration where mine could kill ya.

Buckets not matching equipment, Incorrectly sized digital overload blocks, Incorrectly set overload protection, Incorrect breakers sizes, Wires not matching print, control wiring that is either open or incorrectly landed.
I find copying a bunch of people on a email while pointing out safety issues and poor quality workmanship (including pictures) will get you a little attention. Send one email per problem to a bunch of people after 10-20 emails all hell is breaking loose as they can not answer them faster than i can send them. If you dumb it down to where the higher ups can easily understand the problem that also helps. Throw in some words like safety, fire, loss of limb, death,etc for a little extra effect.


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## bill39 (Sep 4, 2009)

You make some great points about emails. I found that people would often ignore emails, even ones with info about dire circumstances.

If a long email was required I would usually start the first paragraph like this:
“Short story: if X is not changed then Y will burn down...(or whatever).” Then a new longer paragraph with detailed information AND a possible solution. This seemed to really get people’s attention.



gpop said:


> ........I find copying a bunch of people on a email while pointing out safety issues and poor quality workmanship (including pictures) will get you a little attention. Send one email per problem to a bunch of people after 10-20 emails all hell is breaking loose as they can not answer them faster than i can send them. If you dumb it down to where the higher ups can easily understand the problem that also helps. Throw in some words like safety, fire, loss of limb, death,etc for a little extra effect.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

I'm yet to deal with a multi million dollar treatment plant that didn't have several cluster ****s. I think it's written into the specs in invisible ink or something.


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

gpop said:


> i will trade you your 40 million water plant with dodge wire numbers for our 60 million turd farm with mcc buckets that's do not match the disconnect/equipment in the field.
> Yours will only cause a little frustration where mine could kill ya.
> Buckets not matching equipment, Incorrectly sized digital overload blocks, Incorrectly set overload protection, Incorrect breakers sizes,


I am only looking at the SCADA end. My counter part in maintenance is dealing with those issues plus the mechanical issues. This is a surface water plant and has Ozone, UV, Chemicals and big carbon filters.


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## GladMech (Sep 18, 2020)

In Industrial Control systems, there are as many different numbering systems as there are electrical engineers, or electricians, or millrights, or mechanics... With very few exceptions, they will all work, as long as you have the documentation in your hand. With NO documentation, one pushbutton, one relay, and one motor starter can take you all day. When I have the luxury (rarely), I particularly like 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6...


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

For panel wires, i'm a big fan of opposite-end wire markers; the tag on the wire you are looking at indicates the device and terminal number at the other end of the wire. While it doesn't give you great visualization of the circuit, I've always been able to follow a particular circuit quickly and efficiently whether I have the documentation or not. I guess it's whatever you get used to.


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## bill39 (Sep 4, 2009)

Joe-NWT: while I have had to use that system before it is my least favorite. Nothing like visually trying to check your terminations and having none of the numbers match the terminals they are landed on.

We had a pharma company require a from/to system where the panel number and terminal number was required on each end. It was not unusual to have numbers 25 to 30 characters long. Crazy!!


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

bill39 said:


> Joe-NWT: while I have had to use that system before it is my least favorite. Nothing like visually trying to check your terminations and having none of the numbers match the terminals they are landed on.
> 
> We had a pharma company require a from/to system where the panel number and terminal number was required on each end. It was not unusual to have numbers 25 to 30 characters long. Crazy!!



I hear you. When your doing a build, you need the documentation for sure. But once it's commissioned do you need on tag on a wire on terminal 36 that says it goes to terminal 36?  

Have you run across the double opposite-end system? First number on the tag is the termination, the second number addresses the opposite end. This was sprung on me by an mechanical engineer that lifted a wire and then couldn't remember/figure out where it came from. And he had the drawings in hand!


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## bill39 (Sep 4, 2009)

joe-nwt said:


> I hear you. When your doing a build, you need the documentation for sure. But once it's commissioned do you need on tag on a wire on terminal 36 that says it goes to terminal 36?
> 
> Have you run across the double opposite-end system? First number on the tag is the termination, the second number addresses the opposite end. This was sprung on me by an mechanical engineer that lifted a wire and then couldn't remember/figure out where it came from. And he had the drawings in hand!


Yes, that is the same thing I was trying to describe in my first post to you. We almost lost money on the job just due to the cost of the heat-shrink labels and labor to type in the numbers. Very labor intensive.


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## wiz1997 (Mar 30, 2021)

Began working in a food processing plant about a year ago.
Some of the equipment is new, the oldest about 9 years.
First time I opened a control panel I jumped back.
All the panduit covers were off and the wires looked like someone grabbed a hand full and pulled.
There are no labels on any of the wires that were installed at the factory that built the equipment.
The maintenance guys are having to pull on the wires to trace where they go.
The only wires marked are the ones leaving the panel.
I've worked in equipment manufactured from just about every place in the world but never have I seen one this poorly labeled.
These panels were built in Holland.
I've been tasked with labeling every wire in 8 or more panels. 
The prints show wire numbers so coming up with labels will be relatively easy.
Just don't understand why they didn't label interior wiring?
Save time, save money?


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## bill39 (Sep 4, 2009)

wiz1997 said:


> Began working in a food processing plant about a year ago.
> Some of the equipment is new, the oldest about 9 years.
> First time I opened a control panel I jumped back.
> All the panduit covers were off and the wires looked like someone grabbed a hand full and pulled.
> ...


It could be the wires have a stamped # on them. For factory wiring that is sometimes done. My neighbor works for a Swiss based machine company and that is how they do it.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

wiz1997 said:


> Began working in a food processing plant about a year ago.
> Some of the equipment is new, the oldest about 9 years.
> First time I opened a control panel I jumped back.
> All the panduit covers were off and the wires looked like someone grabbed a hand full and pulled.
> ...


Speaking of poor, two things jump to mind.

One, why didn't the maintenance guys put the wire back into the panduit and put the covers back on? I've seen this over and over even in panels that are well labelled. Laziness is a poor trait when it comes to working in panels.

Two, what kind of troubleshooting skills are being displayed when you have to yank on wires in a panel? I mean, if the panel was working properly and suddenly stops working, are they looking for a wiring mistake? I would be looking for a failed device myself. Drawings in one hand, meter in the other and troubleshoot properly I say.


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## wiz1997 (Mar 30, 2021)

joe-nwt said:


> Speaking of poor, two things jump to mind.
> 
> One, why didn't the maintenance guys put the wire back into the panduit and put the covers back on? I've seen this over and over even in panels that are well labelled. Laziness is a poor trait when it comes to working in panels.
> 
> Two, what kind of troubleshooting skills are being displayed when you have to yank on wires in a panel? I mean, if the panel was working properly and suddenly stops working, are they looking for a wiring mistake? I would be looking for a failed device myself. Drawings in one hand, meter in the other and troubleshoot properly I say.


This place had never had anyone actually trained in electrical installation or troubleshooting, until they hired me.
The "know enough to be dangerous" moniker, fit this place.
My question was, how can you troubleshoot a problem if you don't have a set of prints in the panel?
Oh, the prints are on the computer.
Huh?
So I had a set of prints made and began comparing what the prints showed versus what was actually installed.
Most control panels matched up pretty close, but one wasn't even close.
Oh, that one was upgraded a few years ago.
Got the upgrade prints?
They're here some where.
Since hiring on at this place I have had to contact equipment manufacturers for prints, contact the contractor that wired the place for as built prints, and I'm still working to verify panel schedules. 
I took the job, not only because it was 20 miles closer to home, but this place needed me, and they offered a good wage and benefits.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

Yes , the preservation of documentation within some companies is all but non-existent. There was a time when I used to make 2 copies of the red-lines at the end of the job. One, I would send off to engineering to be made into proper as-builts to be returned to the plant, the other I would stash onsite where it wouldn't easily be found. 

The stashed drawings saved the day many a time, once 14 years later!


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## bill39 (Sep 4, 2009)

joe-nwt said:


> Yes , the preservation of documentation within some companies is all but non-existent. There was a time when I used to make 2 copies of the red-lines at the end of the job. One, I would send off to engineering to be made into proper as-builts to be returned to the plant, the other I would stash onsite where it wouldn't easily be found.
> 
> The stashed drawings saved the day many a time, once 14 years later!


The big pharma company we did a out of work for was so hog-tied up in their rules and regulations that they did not permit drawings to be kept inside of a panel. Only the drawings stored on the computer server were considered the official ones.

Obviously drawings are needed to troubleshoot things so you had to fill out forms, get signatures, & approvals to get the official drawings printed out (which immediately became outdated because they were not the ones on the server). Anyway, you can see the inefficiencies and wasted time involved. 

The above is just one example of how the FDA’s rules drive up costs. Crazy stuff!!


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## Yankee77 (Oct 5, 2020)

Pretty crappy if you waited til the end of the project to pull the gotya card, it’s 2000 wires you disagree with the labeling of, at some point no one inspected this , especially on a $39 million project where ‘walk arounds’ are extremely abundant.?


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Yankee77 said:


> Pretty crappy if you waited til the end of the project to pull the gotya card, it’s 2000 wires you disagree with the labeling of, at some point no one inspected this , especially on a $39 million project where ‘walk arounds’ are extremely abundant.?


I am not sure but it was mentioned elsewhere in this thread or another thread about this job, he called foul early in the process but the contractor deliberately put off handling it to later and continued doing non-conforming work. 

If you ever heard this one, "sometimes it's easier to ask for forgiveness rather than it is to get permission" this is kind of like that. It sounds to me like they thought if they could steamroll the objections and keep working, their customer might let it slide. Well, that was a bad bet to make.


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

Yankee77 said:


> Pretty crappy if you waited til the end of the project to pull the gotya card, it’s 2000 wires you disagree with the labeling of, at some point no one inspected this , especially on a $39 million project where ‘walk arounds’ are extremely abundant.?


No I was told by the EC " It will be right, it is our site not yours yet"
I did not wait till the end to complain I had been complaining for 3 months.
It started when I asked for their IO check list and they handed me a cable pull sheet. I told them it was a cable pull sheet not an IO list. Same with commissioning check, I asked for test procedure and was told we are just using the control narrative. They were so much into "full steam ahead and damn the torpedo's" mode to get it done. 
Engineering firm had oversee of everything
GC had oversee of all work.
EC had oversee of SI for programming and checkout
SI was over there head.


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## bill39 (Sep 4, 2009)

just the cowboy said:


> No I was told by the EC " It will be right, it is our site not yours yet"
> I did not wait till the end to complain I had been complaining for 3 months.
> It started when I asked for their IO check list and they handed me a cable pull sheet. I told them it was a cable pull sheet not an IO list. Same with commissioning check, I asked for test procedure and was told we are just using the control narrative. They were so much into "full steam ahead and damn the torpedo's" mode to get it done.
> Engineering firm had oversee of everything
> ...


Cowboy, it sounds like you were out ahead of it and have tried to stick to your guns. Good job!


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

bill39 said:


> Cowboy, it sounds like you were out ahead of it and have tried to stick to your guns. Good job!


Yep. But I'm still getting stuck with a ton of crap. I will be fixing things for years but I needed documentation done right.
You don't even want to look at the PlantPAX end of it. My guys will be redoing it because everything we find wrong, they put a band aid fix in the PLC. I just drew the line and said we will fix it right from now out.


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## mburtis (Sep 1, 2018)

@just the cowboy calling you out on your own signature.... what ended up happening ? For the the sake of maintenence I hope you got it switched over to match the rest of the facilities. Out of curiosity what numbering system do you use as a standard.


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

mburtis said:


> @just the cowboy calling you out on your own signature.... what ended up happening ? For the the sake of maintenence I hope you got it switched over to match the rest of the facilities. Out of curiosity what numbering system do you use as a standard.


I said what the outcome was in another post, they remarked 2000-3000 wires.
We did take ownership of the project from the SI.
BUT my department now is the ONLY approved SI for all projects.
I just spent $40,000 on this winter shutdown to clean up things that were not done correct in the dual server failover setup.
I am doubling that plants size and will include other cleanup work in that project.


As for numbering this is my final standard for prints.
Line numbers increment by 5.
Device names get thier number from line number unless it is on a PID drawing then it uses that number.
Wire numbers are assigned by line number +1 up to 5 on a line.
Wire number do not change midstream same number on both ends.
Wire colors match print colors
All major devices have part number on print.
Printed portrait on 11x17 and bound at top 11" end.


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## LARMGUY (Aug 22, 2010)

Does this help?

BICSI



https://www.bicsi.org/docs/default-source/conference-presentations/2017-thailand/standards-based-labeling.pdf



ANSI

*• ANSI/TIA-606-B extends the reach of ANSI/TIA-606-A *
• Covers more facility types
*• Adds more details to ID locations within locations*
• Identifiers follow a logical sequence
• Use professional-grade lab


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## GladMech (Sep 18, 2020)

I especially like the 11 x 17 portrait but I think it would require a special border designed just for electrical prints.
I guess 5 on a line is enough. Most people want line number only + A, B, C... But I have to admit, I have never needed 26 on one line.  
Are the wire numbers still linked to the page numbers? On 30 - 50 pg drawings, I have always wished I could shuffle the drawings around, especially when I forgot something that was supposed to be on sheet 6. But most people want sheet linked numbers as well.


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## GladMech (Sep 18, 2020)

Now that I think about it, I have really needed the landscape to get enough devices and terminal strips into one line. One of our common standard pieces of equipment had a circuit that required jumping across THREE drawings. One time I had to put it all on one sheet to figure it out, so I printed it on 11 x 48!  (I'll transfer it back to the right sheets AFTER we ship it!)


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## mburtis (Sep 1, 2018)

Thanks for sharing some prints. How do you handle plc inputs and outputs? One of the things I'm beginning to work on now is tracing stuff out at our 14 mgd plant originally built in 1964 and added onto through the years. There is no consistency, very few wire tags and those that do exist are different systems depending on who did the work, very few prints and even fewer that are complete or correct. Been thinking through various schemes of wire numbers and different styles of documentation to see what I feel will be the most useful maintenance and upgrade wise. Really hard to pick a path when your starting from scratch.


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

mburtis said:


> Thanks for sharing some prints. How do you handle plc inputs and outputs? One of the things I'm beginning to work on now is tracing stuff out at our 14 mgd plant originally built in 1964 and added onto through the years. There is no consistency, very few wire tags and those that do exist are different systems depending on who did the work, very few prints and even fewer that are complete or correct. Been thinking through various schemes of wire numbers and different styles of documentation to see what I feel will be the most useful maintenance and upgrade wise. Really hard to pick a path when your starting from scratch.


The team decided to stick with only one numbering system, line numbers no I/O numbers.









As for the old and new what I did before at other jobs was to draw out the prints as they are built. Number the new prints the way I wanted them. THEN put the old numbers on the prints in brackets next to the numbers I wanted. 
When time allowed I would renumber the machine to the new prints. 

I am upgrading 4 filter plants over the next 4 years. I am going so far as to re-pull all new control wires and remark so they match the prints. I could getaway with just remarking some if they are the right color, but by the time you figure out what is what or if you have a bad wire that shows up later it is hard to say " we need to shut down again " .


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

Nice! So simple even an idiot like me could follow those prints.


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

GladMech said:


> I especially like the 11 x 17 portrait but I think it would require a special border designed just for electrical prints.
> I guess 5 on a line is enough. Most people want line number only + A, B, C... But I have to admit, I have never needed 26 on one line.
> Are the wire numbers still linked to the page numbers? On 30 - 50 pg drawings, I have always wished I could shuffle the drawings around, especially when I forgot something that was supposed to be on sheet 6. But most people want sheet linked numbers as well.


If I need more than 5 on a line I just dog leg the line back on next line then finish on next line.
Yes sheet numbers are linked to page


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

joe-nwt said:


> Nice! So simple even an idiot like me could follow those prints.


Don't block me for this, but before the thread of "how did you get your screen name" and you said Joe North West Territory. I though is was for "Joe Nit Wit" 😏


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

Hmmmm. I think I'll take you up on your offer in the "member meetups" thread........


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

joe-nwt said:


> Hmmmm. I think I'll take you up on your offer in the "member meetups" thread........


Surf and turf


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## mburtis (Sep 1, 2018)

The more I look at this system the more I think I like it. The numbers would make it easy to look up the right portion of the prints, but in essence are still just a dumb number. The number itself isn't trying to convey where it's going or coming from or what it is. I've never been a fan of overly complex smart part numbers, to hard to manage and maintain. Seems like it would be pretty easy to expand and modify without screwing up the numbers to badly. Thanks for posting these again.


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