# Service Mast Guy Wires



## McClary’s Electrical

480sparky said:


> Why it's important to guy back your service masts:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I went and looked at this repair this afternoon. I'm surprised there's hasn't been a big KaBoom!​


 

VERY VERY dangerous. If that cuts a wire, it will most likely burn their house down. It's gonna burn clear.

On a side note, at least they don't have to go putting up christmas lights again this year,They're already prepared.


----------



## Bkessler

Did a branch hit the wires?

or

Did one of those escaped monkey's start swinging on the service drop?

The weight of an aluminum triplex isn't the culprit.


----------



## 480sparky

Bkessler said:


> Did a branch hit the wires?
> 
> or
> 
> Did one of those escaped monkey's start swinging on the service drop?
> 
> The weight of an aluminum triplex isn't the culprit.



HO told me it was a branch from the tree across the street. Drop comes from other side of street, so I could see it doing this.

Either way, 4' up the riser is too far to attach without a guy wire.


----------



## Bkessler

480sparky said:


> HO told me it was a branch from the tree across the street. Drop comes from other side of street, so I could see it doing this.
> 
> Either way, 4' up the riser is too far to attach without a guy wire.


Your not allowed to go over 36" here with out special permission from POCO.

What do you use to attach the guy wire to the service mast?


----------



## 480sparky

Bkessler said:


> Your not allowed to go over 36" here with out special permission from POCO.
> 
> What do you use to attach the guy wire to the service mast?


Several little U-bolts on each end of the guy.

I left the HO a price on his voice mail. If I get the job, he'll probably want it done ASAP, which means Monday. If so, I'll take pix.


----------



## al13nw4r3LC76

He must have been trying to match the pitch of the roof.  :thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## fondini

I use a mast chub and run the guy wire through it and anchor it in two points. why do they call it guy wire?


----------



## 480sparky

fondini said:


> ....... why do they call it guy wire?



Because some guy invented it. :laughing:


----------



## Magnettica

480sparky said:


> HO told me it was a branch from the tree across the street. Drop comes from other side of street, so I could see it doing this.
> 
> Either way, 4' up the riser is too far to attach without a guy wire.


I agree, that's why I won't go higher than 30" above the roof line without using guy wires. IMO that mast was higher than necessary anyway 230.24 (B)(2). Is the HO sewing the guy across the street whose tree it was?


----------



## jwjrw

Magnettica said:


> I agree, that's why I won't go higher than 30" above the roof line without using guy wires. IMO that mast was higher than necessary anyway 230.24 (B)(2). Is the HO sewing the guy across the street whose tree it was?





Mag..... uh do you make a habit of sewing people? Just asking...:whistling2:
Is that YANKEE slang for suing? Can I say that here? Ok is that rat ec slang for suing?Better?


----------



## doubleoh7

If it would have been bolted to the house more solidly, it probaby would have just bent above the roof line. That would not be as dangerous.


----------



## 480sparky

Magnettica said:


> I agree, that's why I won't go higher than 30" above the roof line without using guy wires. IMO that mast was higher than necessary anyway 230.24 (B)(2). Is the HO sewing the guy across the street whose tree it was?



Uh, the drop _crosses the street_. Try (B)(4).


----------



## Magnettica

480sparky said:


> Uh, the drop _crosses the street_. Try (B)(4).


Ah, see that, that's the something we didn't see in the image.


----------



## Magnettica

jwjrw said:


> Mag..... uh do you make a habit of sewing people? Just asking...:whistling2:
> Is that YANKEE slang for suing? Can I say that here? Ok is that rat ec slang for suing?Better?


Yes it Yankee slang and NO I've never sewed anyone.:no:

but there are plenty of ambulance-chasing lawyers who do. :smartass:


----------



## 480sparky

Magnettica said:


> Ah, see that, that's the something we didn't see in the image.





480sparky said:


> ........ Drop comes from other side of street, so I could see it doing this..........


Yeah, it sucks having to read.


----------



## Magnettica

480sparky said:


> Yeah, it sucks having to read.


:laughing:


----------



## frenchelectrican

I am suprised the homeowner want to wait until monday to do this repair that is a insane way to do that and I not leave the overhead conductor engerized like that just couple more hard whip of the service drop then KAboom call the Pompiers { Fire Department } to come out to put the fire out.

Merci.
Marc


----------



## doubleoh7

frenchelectrican said:


> I am suprised the homeowner want to wait until monday to do this repair that is a insane way to do that and I not leave the overhead conductor engerized like that just couple more hard whip of the service drop then KAboom call the Pompiers { Fire Department } to come out to put the fire out.
> 
> Merci.
> Marc


 
I'll bet she is willing to risk it, after all she wouldn't want to miss reruns of Mama's Family.


----------



## frenchelectrican

doubleoh7 said:


> I'll bet she is willing to risk it, after all she wouldn't want to miss reruns of Mama's Family.


I agree with that part but I think sometime homeowner like to stonewall long as possible so they can call the insurance company and see what it covered for me I will say heck forget insurance company for a minute and get that fixed right now the cost to fix the mast is far much cheaper than the house burn down and insurance company will ask the homeowner why delay it.

If the North Americian POCO learn a trick with European POCO we have cut off fuse on the pole or pad mount so if the Drop or lateral do short out it will just hit one cut off fuse and leave the rest of area still engerized.

Merci.
Marc


----------



## bobelectric

Over 24 " mast,we must use 2½" rigid conduit.Over 48" we have to guy.


----------



## Bob Badger

Magnettica said:


> IMO that mast was higher than necessary anyway 230.24 (B)(2).


How the hell can you tell that from the picture?:blink:


----------



## Tiger

I can't see much of the overhead span but my first thought was why not bolt a 4X6 to the house near the riser and let that carry the stress?


----------



## Shockdoc

Long Island poco does not permit the use of a wire, I end up hammering the ends of EMT conduit , drilling 1/4 holes and attaching it from the pull off to a couple lags on the structure for hieghts over 3'6" above the roofline.


----------



## McClary’s Electrical

Shockdoc said:


> Long Island poco does not permit the use of a wire, I end up hammering the ends of EMT conduit , drilling 1/4 holes and attaching it from the pull off to a couple lags on the structure for hieghts over 3'6" above the roofline.


 
I bet that's pretty


----------



## 480sparky

frenchelectrican said:


> I am suprised the homeowner want to wait until monday to do this repair ...........



I'm not even sure it will get fixed come Monday. AFAIK, he's just taking bids.


----------



## electricmanscott

Those a-holes deserve to have their house burn down. Look at that dump. Christmas lights in October. Sickening, just sickening.


----------



## Shockdoc

All in all though, if that mast was supported with thru bolts into flat cats on the inside wall it wouldn't have broke the hub or budged. It was a sh*t installation to begin with all the way to the pvc w/h on a metal conduit. I either thru bolt them on open or reno construction or use strut bars bolted into framing members on closed unopenable work. Have not had a mast fall in the last ten years of doing this practice.


----------



## Mr. Sparkle

mcclary's electrical said:


> I bet that's pretty


I thought the same thing, but I saw pictures of a mast done this way (I think from 220....not sure...) and to my surprise it really did not look that bad.


----------



## Jlarson

mcclary's electrical said:


> I bet that's pretty


I think it looks pretty good, it's pretty much the standard way out here too.


----------



## Shockdoc

mcclary's electrical said:


> I bet that's pretty


I can't say the one's I've done look bad, the sort of resemble scaffolding supports.


----------



## Bob Badger

Jlarson said:


> I think it looks pretty good, it's pretty much the standard way out here too.


Here where it was cut and drilled it would be rusted in the first year and falling apart within 5.:laughing:

OK maybe not that fast but small EMT does poorly outdoors in this area.

Most of our job specs require RMC were exposed to the weather.

I have used 1/2" EMT in the same way to secure 20' power poles in big box stores.


----------



## Jlarson

Bob Badger said:


> Here where it was cut and drilled it would be rusted in the first year and falling apart within 5.:laughing:
> 
> OK maybe not that fast but small EMT does poorly outdoors in this area.
> 
> Most of our job specs require RMC were exposed to the weather.
> 
> I have used 1/2" EMT in the same way to secure 20' power poles in big box stores.


We only do it cause the POCO says so. I prefer stainless steel cable, that's what I use on SCADA antenna masts and the like, I think that looks and will hold up better than the EMT anywhere but specs are specs.


----------



## woodchuck2

Here the POCO requires a guy wire on any mast over 24", i usually install an anchor into the ridge beam under the ridge cap and use a turn buckle to preload the mast. No pics of the last one i did that got tore off from a tree but it was a good 50" above the roof. The mast did not go through the roof, instead it went beside it as the home had no overhang. Mast tore off and laid right in the drive way, friend of mine plowing the driveway found it, luckily before he hit it as it was still live.


----------



## SparkYZ

Out here we use 2" rigid for the mast, and poco requires we use two pieces of unistrut minimum 24" apart, lagged into building studs, with 3/8" lags. Our masts are pretty friggin strong....I've Hung off them lol


----------



## Magnettica

Bob Badger said:


> How the hell can you tell that from the picture?:blink:


The OP didn't offer enough information. The damn "across the other side of the street" could be 400' away, we just don't know. :no:


----------



## 480sparky

*Update*

Drove by there the other day, thinking some Craigslister had done it for $100......


_It's still like this_. :blink:


----------



## jwjrw

480sparky said:


> Drove by there the other day, thinking some Craigslister had done it for $100......
> 
> 
> _It's still like this_. :blink:




I priced a service that a tree pulled off the wall in June. It was still like that last week.:blink:


----------



## doubleoh7

If it would have been bolted to the house more solidly, it probaby would have just bent above the roof line. That would not be as dangerous.


----------



## HARRY304E

480sparky said:


> Drove by there the other day, thinking some Craigslister had done it for $100......
> 
> 
> _It's still like this_. :blink:


The POCO Should shut it down before the big boom


----------



## 480sparky

HARRY304E said:


> The POCO Should shut it down before the big boom


It'll take the POCO months before they actually send a human out to read the meter... they're all remote now.


----------



## guest

frenchelectrican said:


> If the North Americian POCO learn a trick with European POCO we have cut off fuse on the pole or pad mount so if the Drop or lateral do short out it will just hit one cut off fuse and leave the rest of area still engerized.
> 
> Merci.
> Marc


Marc, that is smart and common sense, and would save the POCO a lot of money in damages..which is why it'll never happen. Our POCO's are not known for doing the smart or right thing. 

Here's a thread proving that point: http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=112319&highlight=Major+damage+seagull



HARRY304E said:


> The POCO Should shut it down before the big boom


Probably won't happen, unless:



480sparky said:


> It'll take the POCO months before they actually send a human out to read the meter... they're all remote now.


Then call it in 480!! You have a severe safety hazard and if you don't notify the POCO, the fire department will have to. 

IMHO in extreme cases such as this, especially after the amount of time that has passed, you have a duty to report it to the POCO. 

If, as I infer from the thread you have had contact with the customer, and you fail to notify the POCO, then a fire starts, both the customer and the insurance company could come after you as the "professional who should have told us it was very dangerous." 

I would rather have a pissed-off customer who had their power cut off for not fixing this, than hearing about a fatality or injury from the inevitable fire.

It won't take much wind motion or another fallen branch to light this off.


----------



## frenchelectrican

mxslick said:


> Marc, that is smart and common sense, and would save the POCO a lot of money in damages..which is why it'll never happen. Our POCO's are not known for doing the smart or right thing.


 
Mx.,

The bottom line which I know the North Americian POCO don't really want to spend any more money than they have to do it.

I think they have a mential of " Quoi qu'il travaille " ( Whatever it work )

But as far of line failure history for that area if that happend pretty often they should done diffrent to prevent any more cluster F*&k.,,

However the time will tell they will end up put in a cutoff fuse for secondary drop espcally near hevey commercal / industrial loads 

Merci.
Marc


----------



## wayne g

Do what the code calls for "GUY" wire or wires its that simple.


----------



## McClary’s Electrical

wayne g said:


> Do what the code calls for "GUY" wire or wires its that simple.


 

post an article that would require a guy in 480's picture


----------



## jw0445

Everyone is talking about a guy wire. Looks to me like it needs a push brace. Not enough room for a guy from the angle of the drop wire.


----------



## wayne g

mcclary's electrical said:


> post an article that would require a guy in 480's picture


Art 230.28 (in part) it shall be of adequate strength or be supported by braces or guys to withstand safely the strain imposted by the service drop.


----------



## McClary’s Electrical

wayne g said:


> Art 230.28 (in part) it shall be of adequate strength or be supported by braces or guys to withstand safely the strain imposted by the service drop.


 

and it was, for years and years, until a branch fell on it. 
If what you say were true, every mast would need a guy


----------



## 220/221

mcclary's electrical said:


> I bet that's pretty


 
Pretty it aint. We have to *thru bolt* thru the rafters, no lags










Not much rain here. EMT lasts forever.


----------



## McClary’s Electrical

220/221 said:


> Pretty it aint. We have to *thru bolt* thru the rafters, no lags
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not much rain here. EMT lasts forever.


 

That actually doesn't look too bad:thumbup:. Thanks for the pic


----------



## fondini

mcclary's electrical said:


> That actually doesn't look too bad:thumbup:. Thanks for the pic


Here in nw Ohio we have to use ridgid due to wind,ice, and tree branches falling on the drop, emt would bend.


----------



## NolaTigaBait

I'm pretty sure that most utilities require IMC or rigid...220, That IS EMT? I've seen you use rigid before.


----------



## 220/221

Mast is IMC, back braces are EMT.


----------



## NolaTigaBait

220/221 said:


> Mast is IMC, back braces are EMT.


Thats what I thought. Nice work.


----------



## Frank Mc

Hi Guys

Here,s a link to Oz masts known as raiser brackets...Ours has provision to mount service fuses ....

http://www.hagerbr.com.au/enclosures/enclosure-accessories/raiser-brackets-/1503.htm

Frank

PS....What does EMT stand for ...thanks


----------



## 480sparky

Frank Mc said:


> ............PS....What does EMT stand for ...thanks



See Art. 358. :thumbsup:


----------



## knowshorts

480sparky said:


> See Art. 358. :thumbsup:


He's down under. Art. 358 is Ozland is how to steal a Fosters from a sleeping kangaroo.


----------



## 480sparky

knowshorts said:


> He's down under. Art. 358 is Ozland is how to steal a Fosters from a sleeping kangaroo.



Exactly! That's what I meant! :laughing:

Perhaps Sec. 3.26 would be close?


----------



## Frank Mc

480sparky said:


> See Art. 358. :thumbsup:


That was very helpful 480 ;-)

I,ll take a guess Electric Metal Tubing ...???

Thanks
Frank


----------



## 480sparky

Frank Mc said:


> That was very helpful 480 ;-)
> 
> I,ll take a guess Electric Metal Tubing ...???
> 
> Thanks
> Frank










​


----------



## jsb

220/221 said:


> Pretty it aint. We have to *thru bolt* thru the rafters, no lags
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not much rain here. EMT lasts forever.


love the 4" sq blanks on the roof. how do you weatherproof the penetrations?

looks good!


----------



## 480sparky

jsb said:


> love the 4" sq blanks on the roof..........


I don't. In two months, there would be rust streaks all down the roof. They wouldn't last two years here.


----------



## drsparky

Called out to a remote repeater the other day that the 6X6 building tipped over when a tree fell on the messenger cable. The power company (owner) had it righted before I got there. The light bulbs were not even broken. Lost the battery backup transfer/charger computer and that was it.


----------



## Jlarson

480sparky said:


> I don't. In two months, there would be rust streaks all down the roof. They wouldn't last two years here.


I'm using round stainless sheet metal pieces cut out with a large hole saw on a drill press. Next building mounted antenna or service mast I do I will snap some pics, they look way better than the 1900 blanks.


----------



## jsb

http://www.quickmountpv.com/

http://www.thompsontec.com/products/flatjack.html

http://www.eco-fasten.com/our-products/green-fasten

comes to mind.


----------



## nrp3

All of those look beautiful but not sure the direction of force placed by the guy wire would work with those. I have a bid in for a job like this and want to make sure the tie points won't leak. The mast portion isn't a problem because I have the homeowners roofer take care of the flashing.


----------



## zodizzle

what do you use to srcew or fasten the guy wires on to the roof? the roof is shingled.


----------



## cspacil

How many guy wires for a 1 1/4 rigid service conduit 5 feet above the roof


----------



## macmikeman

cspacil said:


> How many guy wires for a 1 1/4 rigid service conduit 5 feet above the roof


Ask the power company in your area


----------



## wcord

*Hi*



cspacil said:


> How many guy wires for a 1 1/4 rigid service conduit 5 feet above the roof


Unless Alberta has modified this rule , you can't use 11/4 

6.112 (5) Rigid steel conduit of a minimum nominal size of 63 trade size shall be permitted to be used for the purpose 
of Subrule (4), provided that all other requirements for a service mast are complied with


----------



## MechanicalDVR

wcord said:


> Unless Alberta has modified this rule , you can't use 11/4
> 
> 6.112 (5) Rigid steel conduit of a minimum nominal size of 63 trade size shall be permitted to be used for the purpose
> of Subrule (4), provided that all other requirements for a service mast are complied with


Is trade size #63 equal to 2 1/2" pipe size?


----------



## emtnut

MechanicalDVR said:


> Is trade size #63 equal to 2 1/2" pipe size?


Yep. good ol' metric :no: The trade size is mm.
I'm still not used to that :001_unsure:


----------



## MechanicalDVR

emtnut said:


> Yep. good ol' metric :no: The trade size is mm.
> I'm still not used to that :001_unsure:


I recall having a convo with P&L about how you like service masts up there and worry about them buckling over, thought he told me 2 1/2" which is overkill for me.


----------



## wcord

MechanicalDVR said:


> I recall having a convo with P&L about how you like service masts up there and worry about them buckling over, thought he told me 2 1/2" which is overkill for me.


When you consider the weight of a 90 foot span of 2/0 al triplex, and the insulator being 3 feet above the roof, there is a lot of pressure on the mast right at roof level. Easy to bend and kink.

All of the older residential areas of the cities have overhead distribution. With the requirement of 12 feet from the ground for clearance and the average bungalow being 10 to 11 feet at the soffit, a mast is necessary to get the height. So, that's why we use masts so often.


----------



## MechanicalDVR

wcord said:


> When you consider the weight of a 90 foot span of 2/0 al triplex, and the insulator being 3 feet above the roof, there is a lot of pressure on the mast right at roof level. Easy to bend and kink.
> 
> All of the older residential areas of the cities have overhead distribution. With the requirement of 12 feet from the ground for clearance and the average bungalow being 10 to 11 feet at the soffit, a mast is necessary to get the height. So, that's why we use masts so often.


Oh I'm well aware of why just that you require 2 1/2" over 2" is the overkill to me but then again I understand you also get ice loading factors.

I know at some point there was logic behind it.


----------



## wcord

MechanicalDVR said:


> Oh I'm well aware of why just that you require 2 1/2" over 2" is the overkill to me but then again I understand you also get ice loading factors.
> 
> I know at some point there was logic behind it.


Probably right about overkill. However the only masts I've ever seen that were bent, were ones where a truck caught the overheads and pulled them.
Some engineer got paid big bucks do the math. OR, the manufacturers convinced the CEC, that the more expensive way was the best


----------



## MechanicalDVR

wcord said:


> Probably right about overkill. However the only masts I've ever seen that were bent, were ones where a truck caught the overheads and pulled them.
> Some engineer got paid big bucks do the math. OR, the manufacturers convinced the CEC, that the more expensive way was the best


The latter is probably more the way it happened like with AFCIs.


----------



## MTW

Old thread is old.


----------



## MechanicalDVR

MTW said:


> Old thread is old.


5 is old ?


----------



## emtnut

wcord said:


> When you consider the weight of a 90 foot span of 2/0 al triplex, and the insulator being 3 feet above the roof, there is a lot of pressure on the mast right at roof level. Easy to bend and kink.
> 
> All of the older residential areas of the cities have overhead distribution. With the requirement of 12 feet from the ground for clearance and the average bungalow being 10 to 11 feet at the soffit, a mast is necessary to get the height. So, that's why we use masts so often.


I think they went wayyy overboard on this one.
I can hold a 90' span of AL triplex with one hand. I can't bend a 1 1/4 with both hands.

I know a lot of services went down in during Ontario's big ice storm, but that wasn't the masts giving way, the problems were with the clevis letting go. That was my experience anyways.

With what they require now, if a truck does hit the overhead, it's taking half the house with it


----------

