# Too many wires?



## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

I assume from your profile that you are an electrical apprentice?

It sounds like the receptacle is wired correctly.

Pete


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Are the tabs removed on the receptacle? Are you sure there is power to both cables?


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## [email protected] (Jan 7, 2015)

Yes. I am apprenticing. The receptacle is wired correctly, based on visual inspection. The tabs are not broken off the receptacle and power on both the incoming hot wires is coming from the same circuit. Basically I wanted to know if I should go to the trouble of removing 1 of the 12-2 wires since having 2 is redundant


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## SdCountySparky (Aug 6, 2014)

Sounds like a home owner picking our brains.


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

Give me a break!


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> Yes. I am apprenticing. The receptacle is wired correctly, based on visual inspection. The tabs are not broken off the receptacle and power on both the incoming hot wires is coming from the same circuit. Basically I wanted to know if I should go to the trouble of removing 1 of the 12-2 wires since having 2 is redundant


Yes cap off one pair


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

And that came from the guy of the quarter.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Yes cap off one pair


I disagree. He should break the tab and leave as is.


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## Sbargers (Mar 28, 2013)

mcclary's electrical said:


> I disagree. He should break the tab and leave as is.


Why break tab? Same circuit cap 1 pair and be done.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Sbargers said:


> Why break tab? Same circuit cap 1 pair and be done.


Because you're downgrading. He had two circuits there, and you're knocking him down to one circuit for no good reason at all.


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

Maybe I missed something but I thought the OP was describing a feed through on the receptacle. He never indicated that he removed the wires from the receptacle to measure voltage. If he didn't then he would be seeing power on both 12-2's. 

Pete


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

OP, if you cause a phase to phase short in your trouble shooting, be sure to post it on YouTube.


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## 3xdad (Jan 25, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> Basically I wanted to know if I should go to the trouble of removing 1 of the 12-2 wires since having 2 is redundant


It aint redundant if you want power downstream.


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## Sbargers (Mar 28, 2013)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Because you're downgrading. He had two circuits there, and you're knocking him down to one circuit for no good reason at all.


He is not downgrading there both hooked up now if it was two circuit it would blow as a double fed there both hot from same circuit. It would matter split tab/ cap 1 set


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Pete m. said:


> Maybe I missed something but I thought the OP was describing a feed through on the receptacle. He never indicated that he removed the wires from the receptacle to measure voltage. If he didn't then he would be seeing power on both 12-2's.
> 
> Pete










Sbargers said:


> He is not downgrading there both hooked up now if it was two circuit it would blow as a double fed there both hot from same circuit. It would matter split tab/ cap 1 set


He made it sound like two circuits. He said the same PHASE, not the same circuit. 

It sounded to me like two circuits, both with their own neutrals, feeding a duplex. If so, both tabs should be broken.


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> Yes. I am apprenticing. The receptacle is wired correctly, based on visual inspection. The tabs are not broken off the receptacle and power on both the incoming hot wires is coming from the same *circuit*. Basically I wanted to know if I should go to the trouble of removing 1 of the 12-2 wires since having 2 is redundant


I'm not convinced yet that the OP understands the concept of feed-through on a receptacle. To say that he is "apprenticing" and asking this question lends me to believe that he has just started apprenticing.

Pete


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## Voltron (Sep 14, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> I discovered (2) 12-2 wires going to (1) receptacle in my garage where both of the hot wires have incoming power on them and both are attached to the hot side of the receptacle. The corresponding neutrals are both attached to the receptacle. Receptacle works fine but could this lead to a problem?


What kind of testing did you do to reach your conclusions?


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

4SQUARE said:


> What kind of testing did you do to reach your conclusions?


No kidding, wiggy, VOM or inductive?


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## xpertpc (Oct 11, 2012)

five.five-six said:


> No kidding, wiggy, VOM or inductive?


Not to digress but I haven't seen the term VOM used in a while (my favorite was the Triplett 310), I think VOM has been replaced with DMM - none the less I still remember using my VTVM.


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

xpertpc said:


> Not to digress but I haven't seen the term VOM used in a while (my favorite was the Triplett 310), I think VOM has been replaced with DMM - none the less I still remember using my VTVM.


I'm getting old. I think I have had my fluke 77 for 20 years, it was a VOM then and it's a VOM now LOL


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## xpertpc (Oct 11, 2012)

Not to be argumentative - and believe a VOM can be either analog or digital because both serve the same purpose that the name implies but I always think analog when hearing the term.

My 77 manual has a date of 1986 on it - closer to 30 years.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Ibtl


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## xpertpc (Oct 11, 2012)

meadow said:


> Ibtl


Is it because a certain person derailed the thread?


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

meadow said:


> Ibtl



:no::no:



xpertpc said:


> Is it because a certain person derailed the thread?



:no::no:


Nothing here so far to require LOTO on this thread...:thumbsup:


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## dave91 (Jan 8, 2015)

*back feed*

if one of these circuits breaks you will not know it you will have a backfeed to your panel and in the off position the breaker will have power on the load side very dangerous ARE you sure you are an apprentice


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

He needs to verify where the two cables are coming from. If they both originate at the panel, and are connected to separate breakers on the same leg, then one is redundant. He could also move one breaker to the other leg and split the receptacle.

He says he has incoming power on both hots.

Sounds like homeowner wiring that was half right, kinda sorta.

Note: There are no "phases" on 120/240.


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## former farmer (Feb 27, 2013)

Break both tabs. 



[email protected] said:


> both of the hot wires have incoming power on them


If he is wrong, he'll have to replace the receptacle and it will be a good and cheap learning experience.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

mxslick said:


> :no::no:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So when you lock a thread, you tag it out too?


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> So when you lock a thread, you tag it out too?


Of course..OSHA requires it. :thumbup::jester:


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## mikewillnot (Apr 2, 2013)

[email protected] said:


> The tabs are not broken off the receptacle and power on both the incoming hot wires is coming from the same circuit.


I wonder if he took at least one of the wires off the receptacle before testing (wasn't clear). If not, the feed-through scenario is still possible.

I hate it when there's too many wires.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

mcclary's electrical said:


> He made it sound like two circuits. He said the same PHASE, not the same circuit.
> 
> It sounded to me like two circuits, both with their own neutrals, feeding a duplex. If so, both tabs should be broken.


if the OP is asking a question of this nature, do you believe he knows what he is actually measuring. He's a DIY


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## Zekelec (Jan 12, 2015)

dave91 said:


> if one of these circuits breaks you will not know it you will have a backfeed to your panel and in the off position the breaker will have power on the load side very dangerous ARE you sure you are an apprentice


I have had this situation. At first glance it's hard to detect.



99cents said:


> He needs to verify where the two cables are coming from. If they both originate at the panel, and are connected to separate breakers on the same leg, then one is redundant. He could also move one breaker to the other leg and split the receptacle.
> 
> He says he has incoming power on both hots.
> 
> ...


No phases, but phase legs, or poles. Someone back in Tesla's time should have assigned some additional terms to phasing because it is confusing to most that don't deal with electricity. Some of the country's leading electrical pundits still make reference to household single phase power supply as having 'phases'. They don't do service to the industry.

Installing a two pole, twin breaker and running a MWB circuit is a mistake I have seen more than once. 

But then I have seen a hack run a switched leg up to a box in a garage along with a hot using the neutral as one of the ungrounded conductors and the EMT as the neutral. I actually got angry when I found that one. To add to it, the metal box containing the switch was next to the sink. And I did say 'conduit'. So easy to pull the extra wire(s).

I digress, sorry. I just feel for the OP trying to understand what he has found. And where did he go?


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