# Drilling through multiple floor joists - best method?



## Islander (Jul 11, 2016)

I'm looking at running some 12/2 wire through multiple floor joists between the 1st and 2nd floor. The flooring above the joists is glued linoleum, and the drywall below them has a textured / stippled finish. What is my best bet for doing this with minimal damage? 

TIA


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Not enough information for me. Coming from where, going to where...what other options are there? Why can't you go through walls vertically?

I can't visualize this how it's worded.


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## Islander (Jul 11, 2016)

Majewski said:


> Not enough information for me. Coming from where, going to where...what other options are there? Why can't you go through walls vertically?
> 
> I can't visualize this how it's worded.


That will learn me to ask questions late at night. 

It's in a four unit apartment bldg. Flat roof, so no attic to go through. Running from the panel, which is by the ground floor entrance, to a few receptacles in the kitchen, which is on the second floor. The entire apartment, except for a small laundry room, is on the second floor.

The kitchen receptacles are about 20 feet from the panel (10 feet north, and 10 feet west). I'm looking to run 12/2 for 20 Amp GFCI's to replace the 14/3 that powered the original 15 Amp split receptacles. 

Hope that helps. I'm off to get some sleep now.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

We are gonna be in big trouble when they invent robot wire that snakes itself from one end of the building to the other....


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

You can get a flex bit through adjacent rafters but I wouldn't even bother trying, the odds of it going well are near zero. If you have to get from interior walls to exterior walls my first choice would be to pull the baseboard and run back there. If there is no baseboard, sell them a nice baseboard.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

You might want to look into the .50 BMG sabot for 12 gauge.
It's suggested to be used in a breach load single shot rated for 3" magnum.
It will make a perfect 1/2" hole through about 30 2" boards with no problem.
Use a piece of 1/2" plate where you want it to stop.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

It's almost perfect Hilti red.
Cool if someone could put the name on it.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

:lol: i'd be looking at/for other trades prior routes....~CS~


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## daveEM (Nov 18, 2012)

Smoke the ceiling. Have it repaired.


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## samgregger (Jan 23, 2013)

Excuse me while I run an errand to the patent office


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Electricians generally hate wiremold, but customers often don't, especially in an apartment, and everyone hates making a mountain out of a molehill. Not saying; just saying.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Like chicken dude says, look for chases and bulkheads. If it's a kitchen job, you can cut open wall behind the fridge and range. If you have matching floor plans up and down and the fridges line up, that gives you lots of wall space you can cut open. Maybe you can run pipe through a closet.

Last resort is Wiremold. I hate Wiremold but if you put white Wiremold on top of a baseboard, it can blend in nicely.


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## Rodger (Jan 3, 2017)

macmikeman said:


> We are gonna be in big trouble when they invent robot wire that snakes itself from one end of the building to the other....





samgregger said:


> Excuse me while I run an errand to the patent office


Dang it!!! I’ve been working for a decade to train gerbils to respond to little shock vest with micro camera mounted on them!


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

For the vertical run I can see fishing the wall cavity but for the horizontal in a apartment I like the molding idea either behind the baseboard or with a wiremold. I'm sure the landlord may just want the cheapest job just like the rest of them in the world.


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## Signal1 (Feb 10, 2016)

Worst case, a little pipe outside, plant a bush?


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Islander said:


> That will learn me to ask questions late at night.
> 
> It's in a four unit apartment bldg. Flat roof, so no attic to go through. Running from the panel, which is by the ground floor entrance, to a few receptacles in the kitchen, which is on the second floor. The entire apartment, except for a small laundry room, is on the second floor.
> 
> ...


1) This is *Grandfathered* work.

2) Stay with the existing 14-3. 

Plans A, B, C:

A) Drop in a GFI 15A two-pole C/B

B) Cut in a 'mated gang' -- so that you have two side by side GFCI 15A receptacles... at each spot. That has to be as good as a single 20A in practicality.

C) Reconnect the conductors so that you have non-split receptacles GFCI 15A at each location. 

This is the cheapest solution that provides GFCI protection.

Today's common counter-top microwave sucks down 1250 Watts.

I = P/E = 1250W/120V = 10.417 A

This design criteria exists EXACTLY because there are so _many_ old kitchen circuits that are 15A jobs.

You're not wiring for a built-in microwave -- which these days include convection, too. They really do need the full 20A.

&&&&

Because it's Grandfathered, you don't have to bring it up to the latest Code standards.

GFCI will suffice.


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## PlugsAndLights (Jan 19, 2016)

Islander said:


> I'm looking at running some 12/2 wire through multiple floor joists between the 1st and 2nd floor. The flooring above the joists is glued linoleum, and the drywall below them has a textured / stippled finish. What is my best bet for doing this with minimal damage?
> 
> TIA


Do you know if the joists are regular/solid or truss type? 
P&L


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## Islander (Jul 11, 2016)

PlugsAndLights said:


> Do you know if the joists are regular/solid or truss type?
> P&L


Not sure. Building was put up in the 60's to 70's, I'd guess. Two story, 2 two bedroom suites per floor. This is in British Columbia. When did engineered joists start being used for residential construction?


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## PlugsAndLights (Jan 19, 2016)

Islander said:


> Not sure. Building was put up in the 60's to 70's, I'd guess. Two story, 2 two bedroom suites per floor. This is in British Columbia. When did engineered joists start being used for residential construction?


I don't know when they became popular, but just to be clear, here's 
a pic of the sort I'm thinking about. 
P&L


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Channel the ceiling. You should know a good patch guy if your engaged in this type of work. If not, find one. Inform customer, if any other improvements are on the horizon - a/c circuits, bathroom 20a GFCI, jacuzzi, now is the time to rough them all in. Based on the age of construction not likely to find trusses.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Channel the ceiling. You should know a good patch guy if your engaged in this type of work. If not, find one. Inform customer, if any other improvements are on the horizon - a/c circuits, bathroom 20a GFCI, jacuzzi, now is the time to rough them all in. Based on the age of construction not likely to find trusses.


I'd hate to be a salesman for air conditioners or water irrigation in British Columbia. 

Forget about new conductors.

They're not needed.

Just upgrade this joint with GFCI receptacles.

It's an apartment -- not a gym, not a restaurant.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

telsa said:


> 1) This is *Grandfathered* work.
> 
> 2) Stay with the existing 14-3.
> 
> ...


"A" is correct. Everything else is wrong.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

telsa said:


> I'd hate to be a salesman for air conditioners or water irrigation in British Columbia.


You realize that there is desert in BC?


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## Islander (Jul 11, 2016)

telsa said:


> I'd hate to be a salesman for air conditioners or water irrigation in British Columbia....


You'd be surprised at how hot it can get here. And dry, for that matter.


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## PlugsAndLights (Jan 19, 2016)

99cents said:


> "A" is correct. Everything else is wrong.


"B" is an approved method here in Ontario. One of the bulletins. I guess
it'd be 26-?-? but I can't be bothered looking up the exact number since 
it won't do the op any good in BC anyways. Umm, he was/is in BC right...
P&L


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## Islander (Jul 11, 2016)

telsa said:


> 1) This is *Grandfathered* work.
> 
> 2) Stay with the existing 14-3.
> 
> ...





99cents said:


> "A" is correct. Everything else is wrong.


That's kind of my thinking on it, too, 99cents. 

I understand the logic of what telsa is saying. Kind of, sort of. But it would still be twice as many places to plug in appliances as the kitchen originally had, but on the same two circuits.

Also, this is an old Nova NL panel, so the odds of finding a 2 Pole GFCI circuit breaker are pretty slim. I could always run a subpanel, I suppose. The panel is rated at 125 amps, so there is lots of room. Well, assuming the conductors feeding it are also rated at 125 amps.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Islander said:


> That's kind of my thinking on it, too, 99cents.
> 
> I understand the logic of what telsa is saying. Kind of, sort of. But it would still be twice as many places to plug in appliances as the kitchen originally had, but on the same two circuits.
> 
> Also, this is an old Nova NL panel, so the odds of finding a 2 Pole GFCI circuit breaker are pretty slim. I could always run a subpanel, I suppose. The panel is rated at 125 amps, so there is lots of room. Well, assuming the conductors feeding it are also rated at 125 amps.


Nova is Eaton BR.

http://www.eatonenewsletterbuilder.com/uploads/20120413015206VintageLoadcentreSalesAid.pdf


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

telsa said:


> I'd hate to be a salesman for air conditioners or water irrigation in British Columbia.
> 
> Forget about new conductors.
> 
> ...


Show me how you can use GFCI receptacles on three wire splits.


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## Islander (Jul 11, 2016)

99cents said:


> Nova is Eaton BR.
> 
> http://www.eatonenewsletterbuilder.com/uploads/20120413015206VintageLoadcentreSalesAid.pdf


Thanks. 

Nothing found for an Eaton 2 pole, 15 amp GFCI breaker.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Islander said:


> Thanks.
> 
> Nothing found for an Eaton 2 pole, 15 amp GFCI breaker.


https://www.homedepot.ca/en/home/p....la-terre-enfichables---2p-15a.1000410369.html


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

99cents said:


> https://www.homedepot.ca/en/home/p....la-terre-enfichables---2p-15a.1000410369.html


That has to be cheaper than running new conductors.

Going commando on an old apartment is poor trade practice.

Wait for a total re-hab to bring it all the way up to current practice.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

telsa said:


> That has to be cheaper than running new conductors.
> 
> Going commando on an old apartment is poor trade practice.
> 
> Wait for a total re-hab to bring it all the way up to current practice.


Now we're getting somewhere...


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## PlugsAndLights (Jan 19, 2016)

OK, it wasn't a bulletin but an OESC Flash that allows replacement of a 
split receptacle with 15A GFI's. If you have 2 splits on cct it's simple. Bit 
more difficult when you have 1. 
If I were in another province I'd take this flash to the AHJ and ask if they 
have an equivalent doc.. 
P&L
https://www.esasafe.com/assets/files/esasafe/pdf/Flash_Notices/16-28-FL.pdf


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## Islander (Jul 11, 2016)

99cents said:


> https://www.homedepot.ca/en/home/p....la-terre-enfichables---2p-15a.1000410369.html


How the hell did I miss that? 

Thanks, 99! :thumbsup:


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