# Benefits of union contractor



## Mich drew (Mar 3, 2013)

WronGun said:


> Ok , so there are many benefits to being a union employee... But , what are the benefits of being a union contractor? Other then a drug-free Well trained workforce available when you need them. That alone is a huge benefit , but wondering what else is there?



Most union contractors have a core group of guys they keep to run work and or do service work. They can keep their workforce to a minimum until they get jobs that require more manpower. Then they call the hall and ask for 'X' amount of electricians to man the work. When the job is done, they get laid off and go back to the hall. It is a well trained labor pool available when you need it. Also in 
many areas of the country, you won't even be considered for larger jobs if you are not a signatory contractor.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

I have gone onto a job and really enjoyed that I see people that I haven't seen in a decade and we all work hard together to get the job done.
We all know that we have the same background and mostly the same skill level.
We get the job done, get our money and go back to the hall and take another call.
It nice when it works but, people show up and do t have roots in that community and work like amatures and f it all up.


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## dawgs (Dec 1, 2007)

WronGun said:


> Ok , so there are many benefits to being a union employee... But , what are the benefits of being a union contractor? Other then a drug-free Well trained workforce available when you need them. That alone is a huge benefit , but wondering what else is there?


That's about it.


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## ampman (Apr 2, 2009)

Well there's umm well I'll have to get back to you


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Such cheek....:no:

Perhaps the epiphany that _skilled substance free open shops_ DO exist could occur , eh?....:whistling2:~CS~


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

So if your an open shop/small company with a group of honest good workers, seems like it would be a negative for that contractor to go Union.


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## derit (Jul 26, 2015)

A cynic might cite it as absolution from a whole host of ills


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## Sparky Girl (Apr 15, 2015)

WronGun said:


> So if your an open shop/small company with a group of honest good workers, seems like it would be a negative for that contractor to go Union.


Opening a small shop with a group of good honest workers is not like opening a book. It isn't as easy as that. You have to go through a lot of people before assembling that core group. 

You may have to train them, which costs you a lot of time and money. You will have to weed out the people who can do from those who _*say*_ they can do. You will have to establish loyalty and that includes paying your workers a decent wage and providing them benefits as good or better than your competition and being a good boss by treating them respectfully. 

Something like this can take years and the cost to you and your company could be substantial.

But let's say you have been working in the trade, you have honed your skills as an electrician and you believe you have what it takes to go out on your own. (Something like 80% of contracting businesses fail in the first 5 years.)

You put out some bids and you land a job. The job starts in three weeks. You need 2 electricians and a laborer/gopher to satisfy the conditions of the contract. (Many contracts today require each trade to clean up after themselves and you may not want to pay a journeyman to do that.)

If you're a union contractor, you call the hall and they send as many electricians as you need. You know each of them has been through a 4-5 year apprenticeship and has achieved the status of journeyman. If you need apprentices, they are usually available too. 1st year apprentices make good laborer/gophers.

If you are a non-union contractor, what do you do? Put an ad out there and keep your fingers crossed that the people who answer the ad can do what they say they can do? And if you can find the workers you need in time but they don't satisfy your needs, your reputation may suffer and that next job could be harder to get.

You can get slugs out of the union hall, too. Both groups (union/non-union) have their fair share. But with the union hall there to supply you, it's a lot easier to send the slug back and get another journeyman than it is putting an ad in the help wanted section again. And if you tell the hall the kind of electrician you need, they will usually help you out.

If you are seriously considering doing this, the way to start out is to start out VERY small - you, alone, at first. When work picks up, hire someone. Then begins the process of creating your core group. Union or non-union, doesn't matter. The workers who come into and through your shop will need to satisfy more than just being a qualified electrician. They have to become one with what you want to create. 

It takes time and a lot of work to build a successful business. Having a union behind you can make the job easier.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

Sparky Girl said:


> Opening a small shop with a group of good honest workers is not like opening a book. It isn't as easy as that. You have to go through a lot of people before assembling that core group. You may have to train them, which costs you a lot of time and money. You will have to weed out the people who can do from those who say they can do. You will have to establish loyalty and that includes paying your workers a decent wage and providing them benefits as good or better than your competition and being a good boss by treating them respectfully. Something like this can take years and the cost to you and your company could be substantial. But let's say you have been working in the trade, you have honed your skills as an electrician and you believe you have what it takes to go out on your own. (Something like 80% of contracting businesses fail in the first 5 years.) You put out some bids and you land a job. The job starts in three weeks. You need 2 electricians and a laborer/gopher to satisfy the conditions of the contract. (Many contracts today require each trade to clean up after themselves and you may not want to pay a journeyman to do that.) If you're a union contractor, you call the hall and they send as many electricians as you need. You know each of them has been through a 4-5 year apprenticeship and has achieved the status of journeyman. If you need apprentices, they are usually available too. 1st year apprentices make good laborer/gophers. If you are a non-union contractor, what do you do? Put an ad out there and keep your fingers crossed that the people who answer the ad can do what they say they can do? And if you can find the workers you need in time but they don't satisfy your needs, your reputation may suffer and that next job could be harder to get. You can get slugs out of the union hall, too. Both groups (union/non-union) have their fair share. But with the union hall there to supply you, it's a lot easier to send the slug back and get another journeyman than it is putting an ad in the help wanted section again. And if you tell the hall the kind of electrician you need, they will usually help you out. If you are seriously considering doing this, the way to start out is to start out VERY small - you, alone, at first. When work picks up, hire someone. Then begins the process of creating your core group. Union or non-union, doesn't matter. The workers who come into and through your shop will need to satisfy more than just being a qualified electrician. They have to become one with what you want to create. It takes time and a lot of work to build a successful business. Having a union behind you can make the job easier.


I get that for sure! But I've already started and I was speaking in terms of already being up and running as a non union with a group of good honest workers....at that point why would a contractor want to go Union ... Is it going to further his business or income ?


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

WronGun said:


> I get that for sure! But I've already started and I was speaking in terms of already being up and running as a non union with a group of good honest workers....at that point why would a contractor want to go Union ... Is it going to further his business or income ?


If you can work with your hall, they might take your guys in as CE.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

WronGun said:


> I get that for sure! But I've already started and I was speaking in terms of already being up and running as a non union with a group of good honest workers....at that point why would a contractor want to go Union ... Is it going to further his business or income ?


IMO, the biggest reason is access to trained employees. Being able to turn on/off a labor force is a big benefit to a construction company.

I think service work might be a different animal.

Selling a job using a higher labor cost is something that most people have a difficult time dealing with.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

hardworkingstiff said:


> IMO, the biggest reason is access to trained employees. Being able to turn on/off a labor force is a big benefit to a construction company. I think service work might be a different animal. Selling a job using a higher labor cost is something that most people have a difficult time dealing with.


Agreed, I don't think the company would stand a chance being Union in the service segment


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

WronGun said:


> Agreed, I don't think the company would stand a chance being Union in the service segment


Looked into it.... Not a flying chance. There are too many variables, the worst being that the locals are so fractured and different that if you straddle more than one, it is like being caught between a husband and wife that hate each other.:whistling2:


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

chicken steve said:


> Such cheek....:no:
> 
> Perhaps the epiphany that _skilled substance free open shops_ DO exist could occur , eh?....:whistling2:~CS~


To the point....yes they exist. The big ??? behind the fact they exist is what did it take to get the shop to that point? 

The shop likely went through 100 guys to get the 20 really good ones they have and NOW, if they want to keep those 20 really good guys for that next big job, they have to work twice as hard at hanging on to them, possibly doing jobs at cost or even losing money jus to keep those key guys employed..............whereas, the union ilk can lay them off, and recall them when the next big job hits. 

That's the big benefit for the contractor, the idea that he does NOT have to keep those key guys employed after the job is done, does not have to stand in the shadow of fear of losing them to another contractor for lack of work. You go back to the hall and ask for 20 more guys and you should (in theory) get 20 guys/gals who are just as good as the last bunch you had.



WronGun said:


> Agreed, I don't think the company would stand a chance being Union in the service segment


Au contraire......we are union and we have a service side to the outfit. Its quite easy to do when our non-union counterparts are charging rates which are equal to ours. The thing then is the contractor pockets more of that rate then we do.


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## Sparky Girl (Apr 15, 2015)

WronGun said:


> I get that for sure! But I've already started and I was speaking in terms of already being up and running as a non union with a group of good honest workers....at that point why would a contractor want to go Union ... Is it going to further his business or income ?


It depends on where you are. My local is in the Chicago area and it's very tough for a non-union contractor to get commercial work or any large residential work. The GCs seem to automatically go to the union ECs because they have a history with them and they know what they will get.

I recently moved to Florida and it seems everyone hates unions here. Yet I hear a lot of complaints about the quality of the workmanship here. The problem seems to be the contractors have sold the myth that all union workers are lazy and unskilled and you can get non-union electricians for much less anyway. 

Becoming a union contractor here would accomplish nothing, outside of the possibility of attracting the best talent because they would enjoy better pay and benefits. The non-union workers here are sometimes treated like they work at Wal Mart. So you'd have to compete with cheap labor.

On the flip side, if, as you grow, you do attract skilled workers and you build a reputation for doing great work for a bit more than the non-union contractors, then I guess being the only union contractor here could pay off.

I see you are in MA. If there is a strong union presence where you do your work, then the possibility of landing bigger jobs increases if you are union. You have to look at the union presence and see who does what to be able to better decide what advantages there might be going union.


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## danhasenauer (Jun 10, 2009)

You are in MA. Go Union. You won't be sorry.If your good guys have DOL recognized Apprenticeship papers, they could possibly receive IBEW JW cards. You will have to share more of your profits with them possibly. The IBEW knows the value of the IBEW/NECA partnership. It's supposed to be a win-win. It is here.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

WronGun said:


> Agreed, I don't think the company would stand a chance being Union in the service segment


I worked for a service shop and it was 100% Union in a right to poverty state.
The margins in service work are so much better than plan and spec work that the shop refused to go after anything but negotiated work.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

I think it boils down to what type of work do you do?

What are the local unions like where you will be performing the work?

What will the process/procedure for crossing lines between the locals you do work in?

There are some great advantages to being a union contractor and there are some great advantages to being an open shop. I have worked both as an employee and found really good knowledgable guys on both sides of the fence, I have also found morons on both sides of the fence. Same can be said of the owners and management, you win some and you loose some.

You just really have to take a hard look at what you do, how you want it done, where you do it, and then sit down with one of the business guys at a local. Give them the list of questions and get your answers. Cross reference everything they give you with some of the contractors who are signatory, guys you might know in the union, and with a lawyer. 

My business model didn't fit because we straddle 5 different locals that all have 5 different ways of doing business, and they really don't seem to get along. If I did straight construction work, industrial, or ground up commercial, I would probably go union.


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## dawgs (Dec 1, 2007)

Switched said:


> Looked into it.... Not a flying chance. There are too many variables, the worst being that the locals are so fractured and different that if you straddle more than one, it is like being caught between a husband and wife that hate each other.:whistling2:


You are in a unique situation with your service area. Most wouldn't have the obstacles you had to try to deal with. They still screwed up by not working together to get you signed. I hope you become the largest Service Eac in the area without them.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

dawgs said:


> You are in a unique situation with your service area. Most wouldn't have the obstacles you had to try to deal with. They still screwed up by not working together to get you signed. I hope you become the largest Service Eac in the area without them.


First... Thanks for your help through my process, it was greatly appreciated!

Second, There were three that were unreasonable, two however were great. Circumstances and leadership my change in the future, so I can't rule it out forever.


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## Sparky Girl (Apr 15, 2015)

jrannis said:


> I worked for a service shop and it was 100% Union in a *right to poverty state*.


Ain't that the truth! When it comes to the unexplained, why underpaid workers fight against unionization is only surpassed by why are there poor Republicans?


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

Sparky Girl said:


> Ain't that the truth! When it comes to the unexplained, why underpaid workers fight against unionization is only surpassed by why are there poor Republicans?


It is rarely that simple.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

Switched said:


> It is rarely that simple.


Care to elaborate?


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Rollie73 said:


> To the point....yes they exist. The big ??? behind the fact they exist is what did it take to get the shop to that point?
> 
> The shop likely went through 100 guys to get the 20 really good ones they have and NOW, if they want to keep those 20 really good guys for that next big job, they have to work twice as hard at hanging on to them, possibly doing jobs at cost or even losing money jus to keep those key guys employed..............whereas, the union ilk can lay them off, and recall them when the next big job hits.
> 
> ...


I'll acknowledge an available work force Rollie 

But that is the only dif, period

Read the OP again. 
The assumptions made are completely insulting and absurd. 

~CS~


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

chicken steve said:


> I'll acknowledge an available work force Rollie
> 
> *But that is the only dif, period*
> 
> ...


Correct, its the only major advantage........


I didn't read any particular assumptions into it, however in my first reading did not notice the "drug free" part of the comment.

Union guys well trained................YES (with a few exceptions)
Readily available workforce...........YES
Drug Free???...............................:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:

I would need an accounting degree to add up the number of guys and the number times we've had failed drug tests coming back to our local. I know we aren't an anomaly in this either. Its a huge problem no matter where you go.


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## dawgs (Dec 1, 2007)

Rollie73 said:


> Correct, its the only major advantage........ I didn't read any particular assumptions into it, however in my first reading did not notice the "drug free" part of the comment. Union guys well trained................YES (with a few exceptions) Readily available workforce...........YES Drug Free???...............................:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing: I would need an accounting degree to add up the number of guys and the number times we've had failed drug tests coming back to our local. I know we aren't an anomaly in this either. Its a huge problem no matter where you go.


But the difference is the dopers don't end up on the job because of the pre screen prior to employment.


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

Sparky Girl said:


> Opening a small shop with a group of good honest workers is not like opening a book. It isn't as easy as that. You have to go through a lot of people before assembling that core group.
> 
> You may have to train them, which costs you a lot of time and money. You will have to weed out the people who can do from those who _*say*_ they can do. You will have to establish loyalty and that includes paying your workers a decent wage and providing them benefits as good or better than your competition and being a good boss by treating them respectfully.
> 
> ...



You post a 50-50 response both type of contractors face the same problems. 

The biggest advantages of being a union contractor, is being able to get a large work force in short order and being able to sleep well at night knowing your men have good pay and benefits. But an open shop man can and do offer good benefits and pay, the difference is they have a choice and can pay the slugs less.

And there are slugs in every walk of life, including open shop and union.

The union offers after apprentice training but what percentage of the work force actually takes advantage of this training?


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

dawgs said:


> But the difference is the dopers don't end up on the job because of the pre screen prior to employment.


To an extent........not _all_ jobs have a pre-screen. Very few of the jobs in my area require a pre screen drug test and its non-existent in the commercial field.......only in an industrial construction type of setting.

I have pushed in our local for a mandatory pre-screen but its fell on deaf ears.


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## dawgs (Dec 1, 2007)

Rollie73 said:


> To an extent........not all jobs have a pre-screen. Very few of the jobs in my area require a pre screen drug test and its non-existent in the commercial field.......only in an industrial construction type of setting. I have pushed in our local for a mandatory pre-screen but its fell on deaf ears.


Ours has random, plus we require it upon hire. So it's paid for by the hall.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

Bad Electrician said:


> But an open shop man can and do offer good benefits and pay, the difference is they have a choice and can pay the slugs less.


That's the part I have a difficult time with, you must pay to the union scale and not to the quality of the worker.

Seems to me if you believe in the union, you kind of believe in socialIsm.


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

dawgs said:


> Ours has random, plus we require it upon hire. So it's paid for by the hall.


 I wish ours was the same.


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## dawgs (Dec 1, 2007)

hardworkingstiff said:


> That's the part I have a difficult time with, you must pay to the union scale and not to the quality of the worker. Seems to me if you believe in the union, you kind of believe in socialIsm.


I somewhat have the same problem with that. But then again I always have the choice of weeding them guys out and finding better talent.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

dawgs said:


> I somewhat have the same problem with that. But then again I always have the choice of weeding them guys out and finding better talent.


:laughing: Sounds like a non union contractor. :jester:


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## Sparky Girl (Apr 15, 2015)

hardworkingstiff said:


> That's the part I have a difficult time with, you must pay to the union scale and not to the quality of the worker.


In my local you can turn around anyone coming from the hall, for any reason at all. If you get a slug who you didn't know was a slug, you can just lay them off. If you fire them, you may get a request from the hall to change it to a layoff unless the guy really deserved it. And if you lay them off inside of two weeks, they don't lose their place on the books. 

As for other benefits of a contractor going union, if the owner chooses to become an IBEW member, he or she would get health and retirement benefits. I worked for a number of shops where the owner was IBEW before becoming a contractor and chose to keep his membership for the benefits and retirement.


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## dawgs (Dec 1, 2007)

Sparky Girl said:


> In my local you can turn around anyone coming from the hall, for any reason at all. If you get a slug who you didn't know was a slug, you can just lay them off. If you fire them, you may get a request from the hall to change it to a layoff unless the guy really deserved it. And if you lay them off inside of two weeks, they don't lose their place on the books. As for other benefits of a contractor going union, if the owner chooses to become an IBEW member, he or she would get health and retirement benefits. I worked for a number of shops where the owner was IBEW before becoming a contractor and chose to keep his membership for the benefits and retirement.


We have our own insurance for our office staff, it's Cheever and better insurance then what the hall offers.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Your business is about managing the job or task. If you spend a disproportionate amount of money trying to manage people, you are going to loose.
Usually, and I say usually, you are going to get some pretty decent journeymen out of the hall. If you cannot manage a job, you can usually get a foreman type person to just handle it for you.
Typically, the journeyman live in the jurisdiction of the hall and have been working out of that hall for years and, they have a reputation to protect. It's a very small community and everybody knows of everybody.
You don't want to be that guy that gets turned around or the village drunk or the slug or the thief.
As far as pay, it's much like being in the military. A certain rank get a certain pay. It's simple and a couple of bucks either way isn't going to break anyone.
It gets a little competitive when the layoffs start and guys start being on their best behavior.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

hardworkingstiff said:


> Care to elaborate?


How many would be apprentices does the hall turn away?

There is a process that a would be apprentice has to go through to make it into the union and there is a process that a journeyman must go through as well. 

Not all will make it through that process, which doesn't necessarily have anything to do with skill and/or intelligence (in some cases yes, but not always). 

Also, not every union represents all phases of construction. Many have done away entirely with residential programs. So if you happen to be a residential electrician, you may not have a union to join.

There is a lot of bitterness and animosity between the two different ways to work. It is unfortunate, but it is there and likely always will be. There are plenty of guys who leave the open shops for union ones and are happy, and there are plenty that end up not liking it. 

They are really two completely different beasts in the end, it isn't just all about wages and benefits.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Union work is more of a team effort.
I understand that the JATC program is very picky but, they can only take in enough people that they can work.
Yes, I agree that residential guys are for the most part cut out but, that facet of the trade tends to be very over saturated with entry level guys that it's impossible for them not only advance but that type of work keeps their marketable skills in a very small niche.
We experimented with a residential ticket but the work tends to boom fast and bust even faster.
Also, some very fine inside electricians have come into the IBEW through the residential and maintenance side.
It's just a hard sell to ask a contractor to double someone's compensation when a GC can instantly find someone to replace a sub. 
The available electricians are drying up a bit so, prices are spiking a bit. 
I think that might last until the next full moon but, it's a spike.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Sparky Girl said:


> In my local you can turn around anyone coming from the hall, for any reason at all. If you get a slug who you didn't know was a slug, you can just lay them off. If you fire them, you may get a request from the hall to change it to a layoff unless the guy really deserved it. And if you lay them off inside of two weeks, they don't lose their place on the books.


Yeah, wow, great system, the slugs just keep getting recycled through other jobs sites and contractors. :no:


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## Sparky Girl (Apr 15, 2015)

MTW said:


> Yeah, wow, great system, the slugs just keep getting recycled through other jobs sites and contractors. :no:


So how is that any different than with open shops? :001_huh:


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

Sparky Girl said:


> So how is that any different than with open shops? :001_huh:


Question, in a union shop, does the contractor get to pick which employee he wants or does he have to take what is delivered, then lay the off to get who he wants? If the answer is he has to take what is delivered, then that is the difference. In an open shop, you interview the potential employee and the employer decides before hiring whether or not the employee is desired. Eventually the non union slug won't be able to be hired because of the lack of work history. In the union (if I understand things correctly), like Peter said, the slug keeps getting recycled.

Now, don't take my answer as a vote against the union. No system is perfect, and we have all benefited from the battles the unions have won in the past.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Sparky Girl said:


> So how is that any different than with open shops? :001_huh:


Because it is....

Open shops (like mine) can go down to the dept of unemployment and solicit whoever is on their _'for hire'_ signup. 2 week, 6 week, whatever w/o our unemp spiking for the layoff

And there are always the pro temp agencies for us to quickly man jobs as well, guess what....they vet 'em....:whistling2:

This idea that we (open shops) do not vet our own is beyond_ ludicrous_ , does anyone actually think an EC's existence in a small pond where everyone knows the _color of your sh*t _ allows us any slack?:no:

Do you not realize we could have the local pd run a check, which they can do with their on board computers with homeland security level intel on anyone?

There are other sources as well, so if you're a doper, smoker, drinker, right on down to _jaywalker_, we'll know about it before you get in the door

We don't give slackers a second chance , they don't get to talk to a shop stewart ,file a grievance , sit the bench, or get shuffled off to another job 

They get fired, *period.*

Love us or hate us, we are the trade hardazzes....

~CS~


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

MTW said:


> Yeah, wow, great system, the slugs just keep getting recycled through other jobs sites and contractors. :no:


The ones I have seen as cronic turn arounds end up being a big fish in a non-Union shop. Then everybody runs around with the idea that a typical Union electrician sits on the bench for years and then just has to work non-Union to pay his child support.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

chicken steve said:


> Because it is....
> 
> Open shops (like mine) can go down to the dept of unemployment and solicit whoever is on their _'for hire'_ signup. 2 week, 6 week, whatever w/o our unemp spiking for the layoff
> 
> ...


Here, the rent a bum places pay the guys less than half PW rates. And, you get what you pay for.
They called me once and wanted to pay me $15 per hour. I told them that I have a license and they threw in another $2. 
I'm really tempted to take one of those jobs just to see what they are up to.
I know I would either get fired before lunch or be offered a partnership.:laughing:


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## Sparky Girl (Apr 15, 2015)

hardworkingstiff said:


> Question, in a union shop, does the contractor get to pick which employee he wants or does he have to take what is delivered, then lay the off to get who he wants? If the answer is he has to take what is delivered, then that is the difference. In an open shop, you interview the potential employee and the employer decides before hiring whether or not the employee is desired. Eventually the non union slug won't be able to be hired because of the lack of work history. In the union (if I understand things correctly), like Peter said, the slug keeps getting recycled.


As I posted earlier, when a new guy comes on the job, the contractor has the right to turn them around for any reason. At least that's the way it works in my local. You can interview, test, whatever, and after that decide to keep or send back the electrician.

Slugs are recycled in every occupation. But in most cases, the business usually has to hire them first before finding out they are a slug, and that can be costly. Anyone who has their feelers out on the union members will probably know who the slugs are and can turn them around without it costing them a dime.


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## Sparky Girl (Apr 15, 2015)

chicken steve said:


> Because it is....
> 
> Open shops (like mine) can go down to the dept of unemployment and solicit whoever is on their _'for hire'_ signup. 2 week, 6 week, whatever w/o our unemp spiking for the layoff
> 
> ...


If you interview someone new, how do you know they will actually perform the way you believe they will when you hire them? You don't. Some people are professional BSers and can fool any interviewer. And they are often the slugs. At least in a union, you can ask your trusted guys about whoever is sitting in the hall and turn around any slugs without it costing the contractor a thing, including unemployment.

I never said open shops don't do their homework when looking to hire. They wouldn't be in business if they didn't. What I'm saying is, when it comes to hiring, there is no advantage to be gained by being an open shop and in many cases there are disadvantages. At least with a union, you know the prospect has been trained, has passed the criteria set by the local and has a verifiable history that you, as a contractor, have access to. 

Someone looking for a job who claims they are an electrician might be nothing more than a self-taught weekend warrior. Without a reputable governing body that tracks the employment records of it's members, you are taking a gamble with every new hire. With the IBEW, the only time you are that in the dark about a new hire is if they come from another local and no one locally knows them.

I spent about 12 of my 35 years in the IBEW as a project manager and when I had to hire an assistant or CAD designer or whatever, I always wished I had a history of those people like I do when hiring IBEW members. I found more disappointment hiring people "off the street" than hiring out of the hall.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

What a hassle!! All these obstacles! I grew up working at my fathers convenience gas station markets until he sold them all. Now that I'm looking to get out of being an employee and into being an employer. I think the old family business idea is much more pleasing and less stressful.. A total different beast with a different form of management. Growing up seeing the family business , this electrical business is looking like a nightmare. So much depends on the employees in this business that it makes me feel like I will become a full time babysitter


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Rollie73 said:


> Correct, its the only major advantage........
> 
> 
> I didn't read any particular assumptions into it, however in my first reading did not notice the "drug free" part of the comment.
> ...


I'm going to make an educated guess that most of the drug-test failures were THC related. 

Drugs are a huge problem everywhere however, I NEVER smell pot smoke anywhere near a union jobsite as I do in and around a nonunion one. 

All allegiances aside, the cream always rises to the top: though it's prone to spoil faster.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

I'll word it this way, if being a signature contractor (that's what you call it, right?) is so great, why are there so many open shops (and some of significant size)? 

S Girl, I'm not trying to put down the union, it's just not as cut and dry as union people would like to present.

There are many variables.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

hardworkingstiff said:


> That's the part I have a difficult time with, you must pay to the union scale and not to the quality of the worker.
> 
> Seems to me if you believe in the union, you kind of believe in socialIsm.


What's your beef about socialism? It's a system with it's pro's and con's just like capitalism has it's pro's and cons.

If I wreck my car, I get a brand new one thanks to a "socialist" system where many people pay into a fund to make whole the few people who meet with an unfortunate disaster. People pay good money to be a part of that. 

If I need a book, or a video movie or documentary, I can get one free to use at the library. Of course, there's thousands of books and movies there I couldn't care less about, but there's a great value when you consider how much I pay to get what I want.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

IslandGuy said:


> All allegiances aside, the cream always rises to the top: though it's prone to spoil faster.


That works in or out of the union.

I've known 2 union electricians that wound up working under me. Both could do good work (neither were as good as me, :laughing: ). One was always complaining about poor wages and this or that, grumble grumble grumble. The other one just worked and kept a smile on his face. The one that grumbled all the time I lost track of but 15 years ago I understand he was still an employee where I used to supervise him. The other one has his own business, nice trucks, equipment, boat, and is an outstanding man of the community.

So I agree, the cream does rise to the top and it has nothing to do with being in or out of the union.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

hardworkingstiff said:


> Question, in a union shop, does the contractor get to pick which employee he wants or does he have to take what is delivered, then lay the off to get who he wants? If the answer is he has to take what is delivered, then that is the difference.


In a union shop, the contractor asks for a journeyman and he gets a journeyman. What's all this pick and choose crap about? Oh I know - you choose who gets a job on your own personal biases and want total "control." Or you're doing something that requires a specific skillset and will only pick a candidate who has it, completely ignoring the fact that there are people who can and do pick up a new skill and perform it better right off the bat. 

Or maybe it's the fact that you cannot dictate the wage. In your world you're used to the illusion that you can squeeze more production from a human being by dangling the promise of a higher wage IF the "put out" for you. 



> In an open shop, you interview the potential employee and the employer decides before hiring whether or not the employee is desired. Eventually the non union slug won't be able to be hired because of the lack of work history. In the union (if I understand things correctly), like Peter said, the slug keeps getting recycled.


Actually, a "slug" in a union is a rare event, and typically only show their slug aspect when there is full employment. Same chit happens in the nonunion sector. 


> Now, don't take my answer as a vote against the union. No system is perfect, and we have all benefited from the battles the unions have won in the past.


Some more then others. I'd like to make an informal poll here, for all the nonunion electricians... "When you retire at age 58 what will your monthly pension be?" I do not know a single nonunion electrician that has a pension. They work right into the grave. 

I don't want to mince words here, and I'm not trying to be rude or crass or disrespectful, but I have to say this: Recently a couple of nonunion electricians on this board fell ill and set up "go fund me" pages. BOTH of these guys were all about "personal responsibility" and "pulling yourself up by your bootstraps and make something of yourself..." All I can say is this: As a member of Local 3 NYC If I should fall ill and be unable to work MY BASES ARE COVERED and I wouldn't have to beg strangers to help support me or my family.

This seems to be a recurring theme with the nonunion... All talk, no walk. 

That is the power of collective bargaining.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

IslandGuy said:


> What's your beef about socialism?


This statement tells me you don't have a clue about what I think.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

hardworkingstiff said:


> Question, in a union shop, does the contractor get to pick which employee he wants or does he have to take what is delivered, then lay the off to get who he wants? If the answer is he has to take what is delivered, then that is the difference. In an open shop, you interview the potential employee and the employer decides before hiring whether or not the employee is desired. Eventually the non union slug won't be able to be hired because of the lack of work history. In the union (if I understand things correctly), like Peter said, the slug keeps getting recycled.
> 
> Now, don't take my answer as a vote against the union. No system is perfect, and we have all benefited from the battles the unions have won in the past.


All of the other union skilled trades in my area have "recall rights"...that is the right to hire by name if the person had worked for you in the last one to two years. Our local does not have this and I don't know if other IBEW locals have "recall" rights.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Sparky Girl said:


> If i may, i'll address each concern/conjecture for you here SGirl
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

IslandGuy said:


> That is the power of collective bargaining.


That i will _not,_ forever and a day, argue Island Dude

~CS~


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

hardworkingstiff said:


> Selling a job using a higher labor cost is something that most people have a difficult time dealing with.


Thats not always true.
The union shop I worked for in the past was very open with us about bidding jobs. It was proven time and time again, the only ones making any money on non-union jobs were the non-union contractors. The workers were making squat.
Meaning the bids were very similar with employees getting a bigger share in a union shop. 



hardworkingstiff said:


> Seems to me if you believe in the union, you kind of believe in socialIsm.


And what would be wrong with that?



jrannis said:


> I know I would either get fired before lunch or be offered a partnership.:laughing:


I used to kid my wife all the time telling her I was going to apply for a job in her plant. She always responded with "you would be gone before lunch". You know what? She was right! :thumbsup:



IslandGuy said:


> I'm going to make an educated guess that most of the drug-test failures were THC related.
> Drugs are a huge problem everywhere however, I NEVER smell pot smoke anywhere near a union jobsite as I do in and around a nonunion one.
> All allegiances aside, the cream always rises to the top: though it's prone to spoil faster.


I bet it pot is the number one reason for failed drug tests in any sector of the world.
Its just to bad the people running this show have not learned anything yet.
Why are our leaders so afraid to do the right thing?
I had held out some hope that the President would make a move to rectify this injustice. I have since realized he does not have the balls to do it?
He has the executive pen. Use that mother ****ing pen!!!


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

My state has decriminalized, and is on the cusp of legalizing med maryjane 

I know because we're getting the _'how much to wire my basement with 50,000 watts of grow lights calls'_

Personally, i find basing the integrity of worker on what s/he does on _off time_ a poor caliber, if not unconstitutional.:no:

The focus should be said worker efficacy _on the job_.

Substance abuse on the job , and/or what affects job performance is an entirely _different_ deal. 

If we're going to be _honest_ about it all, the mental health community has created an industry, parlaying all SA into nauseatingly long and expensive recovery programs.:no:

So who's the _tool _here?:whistling2:

The last time we had a youngster complain about a hangover, I had him shoot emt on in a large cement walled room.

He made an amazing recovery in record time....:laughing:

~CS~


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

John Valdes said:


> And what would be wrong with that?


The problem with socialism is that it breeds mediocrity where capitalism rewards exceptionalism. 

The good side of socialism is it helps "the least of these" where capitalism just steps over them and leaves them to fend for themselves.



Both systems depend on people to rise above and not let the negatives take over.

Let me ask you a question, do all union J-man make the same wage regardless of their production rate? Please answer truthfully.


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## Sparky Girl (Apr 15, 2015)

chicken steve said:


> i know every spark in a 50 mile radius , they know me. The _'dirt' _i can obtain on anyone by legit means _alone_ would inspire most to question legalities.
> 
> And let's be serious about BS'ers please, i'm a career contractor , every atom in my dna is engineered towards BS , either detecting Or imparting it


If I understand you correctly, 

You know every electrician in a 50 mile radius.

You can see through any BS from anyone.

If that's the case, you need to switch careers and make some serious money as an employment agency or head hunting company. I know contractors who already pay big bucks to head hunters (some fees equal to one year's pay) and are still occasionally disappointed. That you know everyone and can't be BSed means you could charge even more than the head hunters. You could be making tens of thousands and more for every prospect you recommend. Your skills are being wasted as an EC, unless you like working for less.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

hardworkingstiff said:


> The problem with socialism is that it breeds mediocrity where capitalism rewards exceptionalism.
> 
> The good side of socialism is it helps "the least of these" where capitalism just steps over them and leaves them to fend for themselves.
> 
> ...


Nothing wrong with being exceptional but, what about the average person or a person born with less intellect capability or a physical impediment. 
I have nothing against either socialism or capitalism and believe a proper balance of both make for a nice sweet spot in any society.
Capitalism concentrates wealth and socialism wants to share it. You can't just pick one.


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## zac (May 11, 2009)

jrannis said:


> Nothing wrong with being exceptional but, what about the average person or a person born with less intellect capability or a physical impediment.
> I have nothing against either socialism or capitalism and believe a proper balance of both make for a nice sweet spot in any society.
> Capitalism concentrates wealth and socialism wants to share it. You can't just pick one.


The problem with socialism is then whom directs where it is spread? Most of us don't share the same world view and because of this there are problems. 

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

jrannis said:


> Nothing wrong with being exceptional but, what about the average person or a person born with less intellect capability or a physical impediment.
> I have nothing against either socialism or capitalism and believe a proper balance of both make for a nice sweet spot in any society.
> Capitalism concentrates wealth and socialism wants to share it. You can't just pick one.


You ignored my question. An oversight or by design?


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

hardworkingstiff said:


> ...
> Let me ask you a question, do all union J-man make the same wage regardless of their production rate? Please answer truthfully.


No...the requirements of the contract are the minimum...the contractor is free to reward the better workers with more money.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

hardworkingstiff said:


> Let me ask you a question, do all union J-man make the same wage regardless of their production rate? Please answer truthfully.





don_resqcapt19 said:


> No...the requirements of the contract are the minimum...the contractor is free to reward the better workers with more money.


When I was on a union job site the majority of the journeymen made exactly the same amount. 
However, supervisors and foreman made more, and people working on the slab got a percentage above scale as motivation. 
Something that will always stick with me. Every journeyman on the job had at minimum a journeyman's license. Every single guy had a license. 
The travelers did not always have local licenses as they are well, travelers.

And from my memory, everyone worked hard for their money. Hard to hide on a slab 40 stories up, with a picture perfect view of the Atlantic ocean.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

hardworkingstiff said:


> The problem with socialism is that it breeds mediocrity where capitalism rewards exceptionalism.


Yea, that's the theory constantly being shoved down our throats, but it's not really true.

Paris Hilton is a talentless airhead worth 100 million, Nikolas Tesla died broke, penniless, and in debt.

So save your carrot-on-a-stick schtick for some up and coming electrician's helper who will probably spend 10 years working in shops before it dawns on him there's nobody over the age of 35 working (for somebody else) in nonunion construction.



> The good side of socialism is it helps "the least of these" where capitalism just steps over them and leaves them to fend for themselves.


The bad side of capatilism is getting us to where we are now. Wherever you live I'll bet the local or closest mall has a gap, a kids r us, toys r us, a Macy's or one of it's same-store-different-name offshoots, a Hallmark card store, on and on. 

The big fish devour the smaller fish until every single mall and main st in America is one homogenous oneness, and there is no competition designed to promote BETTER business practices, better value and all the good that comes from competition.

5 corporations own 95% of all mainstream media outlets. There used to be laws preventing any entity fro owning more than 2 in any demographic. Now your "country hits" and "classic rock" station is playing the exact same que as the ones I have access to.

We as a country have the most expensive yet lowest available bandwidth internet connectivity. My combined cable, internet and telephone bill is more than $200.0 a month, yet in some areas where the municipality has installed it's own "socialized" community-owned system, they pay less than $40.00 a month for the same service and town-wide wi-fi is totally free.

My local electric rate is one of the highest in the nation, yet 4 hours north, locally owned and operated electric co-op the rate is less than 1/3 what I'm paying. 

We have a corporate controlled government that allows Exxon and Mobil to merge- HOW is this beneficial you any consumer? 

Back in the day the government broke up the telephone monopolies. Upon doing so, my telephone bill today is less than it was in 1970. 


> Both systems depend on people to rise above and not let the negatives take over.
> 
> Let me ask you a question, do all union J-man make the same wage regardless of their production rate? Please answer truthfully.


They all make the same wage, as a minimum standard. Those with special skills command higher wages.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

IslandGuy said:


> Yea, that's the theory constantly being shoved down our throats, but it's not really true.


Yes it actually is true.

That does not mean it should be abandoned.


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## Sparky Girl (Apr 15, 2015)

John Valdes said:


> When I was on a union job site the majority of the journeymen made exactly the same amount.
> However, supervisors and foreman made more, and people working on the slab got a percentage above scale as motivation.
> Something that will always stick with me. Every journeyman on the job had at minimum a journeyman's license. Every single guy had a license.
> The travelers did not always have local licenses as they are well, travelers.
> ...


Just what I saw every day. 

If union workers were as some anti-union fear mongers claim, all the union contractors would be out of business. I ran a 7-12s job that had 40 so-called "hall bums" and these guys worked their butts off to meet the tough deadlines we faced. I'd take those guys anywhere.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

deleted


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

*Union pension*

deleted


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

deleted


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## CGW (Oct 14, 2014)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> No...the requirements of the contract are the minimum...the contractor is free to reward the better workers with more money.


That's not my experience, but that's not to say it doesn't happen. Everyone makes the same, and if you're lazy you'll find out the myth that union workers all stand around jerking their pud is BS when you're sent back to the hall. 

I was working with about 50 guys and the foreman sent a single guy home because he was a lazy F-up. As long as there's grounds for termination it'll happen. It's a myth the union protects you from having to work.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Sparky Girl said:


> If I understand you correctly,
> 
> You know every electrician in a 50 mile radius.
> 
> ...


You seem to think i'm _proud_ of that fact SGirl

I'm _not_...:no:

I've been screwed more than a subway crackwhore 

So you see, i come by affliction this honestly .....

~CS~


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

IslandGuy said:


> Paris Hilton is a talentless airhead worth 100 million, Nikolas Tesla died broke, penniless, and in debt.
> 
> .



This has never been a meritocracy IG :no:

Methinks you're well aware 

As such, no metric exists for the '_best electrician' :whistling2:
_
No matter how much ascii they may waste on the topic....

~CS~


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

CGW said:


> That's not my experience, but that's not to say it doesn't happen. Everyone makes the same, and if you're lazy you'll find out the myth that union workers all stand around jerking their pud is BS when you're sent back to the hall.
> 
> I was working with about 50 guys and the foreman sent a single guy home because he was a lazy F-up. As long as there's grounds for termination it'll happen. It's a myth the union protects you from having to work.


It is most common in small shops. Often it is the contractor paying the guy foreman or GF rates when he is only required to pay JW rates.

On larger projects, one man reductions in force are common, however I think the union would be better off if those guys were fired and the termination marked "not for rehire".


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## dawgs (Dec 1, 2007)

CGW said:


> That's not my experience, but that's not to say it doesn't happen. Everyone makes the same, and if you're lazy you'll find out the myth that union workers all stand around jerking their pud is BS when you're sent back to the hall. I was working with about 50 guys and the foreman sent a single guy home because he was a lazy F-up. As long as there's grounds for termination it'll happen. It's a myth the union protects you from having to work.


More than half of my journeyman make above scale. (Foreman pay) whether they are running jobs or not.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Sparky Girl said:


> Just what I saw every day.
> 
> If union workers were as some anti-union fear mongers claim, all the union contractors would be out of business. I ran a 7-12s job that had 40 so-called "hall bums" and these guys worked their butts off to meet the tough deadlines we faced. I'd take those guys anywhere.


I PMed a job with 100 guys working 3 shifts.
I had a good GF and a schedule.
The production was nothing short of incredible and only limited by the logistics and work areas I could get them into.
Most of These guys had been working off and on together for decades and completely policed themselves. They knew each others strengths and weaknesses. The GF placed his guys where they would be most effective.
The job Stewart took care of any problems they had so, labor on that job, to me wasn't that big of a deal and I could focus on interacting with the GC and management company.


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

CGW said:


> That's not my experience, but that's not to say it doesn't happen. Everyone makes the same, and if you're lazy you'll find out the myth that union workers all stand around jerking their pud is BS when you're sent back to the hall.
> 
> I was working with about 50 guys and the foreman sent a single guy home because he was a lazy F-up. As long as there's grounds for termination it'll happen. It's a myth the union protects you from having to work.


I think on large projects it is easier for slackers union or not.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> It is most common in small shops. Often it is the contractor paying the guy foreman or GF rates when he is only required to pay JW rates.
> 
> On larger projects, one man reductions in force are common, however I think the union would be better off if those guys were fired and the termination marked "not for rehire".


Terminated for cause often triggers a grievance, which would require a hearing where the foreman or, in the case of a small shop, the super to appear before a committee.


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