# Labor Units



## LuckyLuke (Jun 1, 2015)

Purchase the NECA labor units either book or CD. That will have most items would need with the labor unit. It's a cheap and helpful investment. Also note that the labor units tend to be high so you will still need some trial and error but it's a good basis. Generally we go between 65-80% of the NECA units depending on the difficulty of the job.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

tom_3200 said:


> Just began bidding on smaller commercial jobs and would appriacate if anyone had any general competitve labour Unit spread sheets or information. I understand you would learn this over trial by fire but the help would be greatly appriciated. I will also say I am from Manitoba Canada, for any contractors that would be against help someone in their own area.


It entirely depends upon what you mean by "smaller commercial jobs."

Square D considers any job of 1600 Amps or less to be a "small job." This is typical of the NEMA crowd, as all equipment designed for that market is largely cookie-cutter -- from where they stand. 

If small commercial jobs means a two-man project that will be completed in less than a month, you start to fall below the threshold of most 'bidding engines.' 

You're better off just figuring how many days you'll be compelled to man the job -- that's your labor. Then tote up all of the minor materials and get bids and submittals on the the custom stuff. (light fixtures in almost every case)

At such a scale, you won't get much labor efficiency -- as staging materials, dealing with inspections, etc. loom large. Such jobs become glorified service calls.

In which case, you can knock yourself out with slick bidding software -- to no avail.

The implicit assumption in all of the bidding programs is that you've reached enough scale for their statistics to really pan out. ( ~ 500 man-hours -- continuously manned ) 

I suspect that you'd be better off cranking out your own 'flat-rate book' for the typical small commercial tasks:

Setting panels
Running O/H EMT feeders
Connecting motor loads
Lighting


I know of one commercial EC with a payroll of 80 field electricians that uses his own in-house flat rate schedule for ALL dinky projects -- right along with his service call fleet.

He whips out the bidding program only for really hefty stuff. ( Brand new grocery stores, etc. ) 

Renovations are bid on the basis that at least a foreman/ lead man will be committed to the job every day that the superintendent is -- pretty much. Then variable labor is tacked on.


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## tom_3200 (Jul 18, 2015)

I was thinking that an estimating program might not be small enough for what I'm looking for. Looking for something wether it's labor units or flat rate book for jobs such as new mechanic Garage, Subways ect. Just was looking for something I can compare to, as I have a rough idea on certain flat rate pricing but would be nice to see something someone else is using.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

tom_3200 said:


> I was thinking that an estimating program might not be small enough for what I'm looking for. Looking for something wether it's labor units or flat rate book for jobs such as new mechanic Garage, Subways ect. Just was looking for something I can compare to, as I have a rough idea on certain flat rate pricing* but [ it ] would be nice to see something someone else is using*.


No kidding.

Absolutely everybody has to start somewhere -- and that somewhere is usually in the blind.

If you shell out for RMS estimating... you'll find that it's so brutally simple in concept that it's largely useless. Indeed, most estimating programs are merely digital versions of the RMS 'logic.'

1) Start with something that you're comfortable with: estimating 2" EMT O/H feeder to a three-phase commercial panel 208Y120 system from a stubbed EMT run.

This is the MOST typical TI situation when you enter a new strip center.

It will involve a full quarter-bend down into the panel -- and a kick -- say 45 or 30 -- and so many feet of EMT -- straight off.

Use a spread sheet program to fill in the materials that you'd ideally use -- and the labor you think it would take to perform the install -- WITHOUT any complications:

No wire
No staging
No inspection

etc.

JUST the EMT run. -- have an 'adder' for each additional foot that the EMT must extend away from the stub to get to the panel can. 

So you have two figures: the terminal run into the can, the distance back to the stub.

Then do the same for setting the 225A panel can.

No wire
No staging
No inspection
No guts
No breakers
No make-up

Just setting the panel can -- allow for minor materials.

Variations: TIN or WOOD studs.

Slapping in the guts and wire and terminations -- will be a separate thought piece.

&&&&

At first concentrate on just the rough-in -- and just the EMT.

Skip the wire, wire pulling, MC, etc.

You want to scope out what amounts to the back-bone of your build. These figures will draw heavily upon specific [ linear ] dimensions from the space you are estimating. [ Square footage is no help in estimating feeder runs. ]

&&&

Unit costs -- YOURS -- have to be estimated for all trivially common basics as setting 2x4 troffers. Focus ENTIRELY upon minor materials and direct labor. The actual fixtures will be sent out for bid -- often enough -- making them a separate cost element. All lighting connections will assume MC runs to either a back bone of EMT down the center of the space -- or all the way back to a can/ gutter set above the panel. The law of large numbers kicks in, you can use square footage for these branch connections. ( MC consumption ) All other minor materials will correlate with the fixture count.

Yeah, this will take some time. 

Everyone else has been down the same road. No easy steps just for you.

Lighting will always be your number one product. So you've got to get the lighting package estimate right. 

You should work up the bathrooms as a separate cost item. They will invariably be back towards the panel -- never located at the front door. They will always have a fixture over the sink, some EM, etc. This package will be tweaked and re-tweaked -- just about forever.

Branch wire pulling will turn on branch EMT. Don't over do it. Dinky jobs favor MC.

MC all the way to the panel can looks terrible and is actually NOT cost efficient... I don't care what the estimating books say. That last drop and turn down into the panel can waste a LOT of MC and a LOT of time -- just right there.

AFTER all of the usual stuff is estimated -- by YOU -- knowing how YOU do it -- you can begin to tackle issues like:

Staging materials
Job closure/ inspections / glad-handing
Office overhead
Risk ( deadbeats pay more )
Rentals
Pilferage 
Scrap ( a % )
Fees 

The 'Other Guys' figures are actually worthless to you. He could be running an extremely efficient shop. So if you won a bid against him, you'd bankrupt yourself right out of the box.

You ONLY want to win bids that are fat enough that YOU can survive. You simply have to let the other stuff go -- and be grateful that you're not a slave to your own bid-folly. [ This is the NUMBER ONE route to bankruptcy in the trades. ]

Good luck. :thumbsup:

Like a fisherman, you won't be catching every fish in the sea. You'll be pulled under should you try.


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## Bootss (Dec 30, 2011)

tom_3200 said:


> Just began bidding on smaller commercial jobs and would appriacate if anyone had any general competitve labour Unit spread sheets or information. I understand you would learn this over trial by fire but the help would be greatly appriciated. I will also say I am from Manitoba Canada, for any contractors that would be against help someone in their own area.


there's a fellow on the site here I think his user name is "Walker" I think he has some good commercial experience estimating.maybe you can sweet talk him into sharing his spreadsheet with you if you do send me a copy


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## mdfriday (May 14, 2007)

I estimated full time for 6 years before I went out full on to my own endeavor. I am thankful for that experience. It was well worth learning that on someone else's dime....in more ways than one.....

I knew when to tell the boss "NO." That is a good skill, and never forget the word "NO." Every time he did not listen to those around him telling him "this one is a bad idea," he regretted it.

I bought the same estimating program I used when I did it full time, EBM. It is a good piece of software for someone starting out. It is also good for an EC bidding on larger jobs. I bid jobs over $5,000,000 with it. 

Some of the smaller jobs it is faster to just WAG / SWAG based on your history than it is to set up an estimate in a program. I can bid most jobs under $30,000 faster with pad and paper than using software.

Once you've estimated for a while you can guess on job pricing and be with in X %. I've done that on jobs in the six figure dollar amounts and had to go back and do a full take off and estimate when they sent us a contract....luckily I tend to guess a few % high.....

Two examples, both restaurants:

quick guess (wag), sent proposal at 128,500, half hour later, go the call, job is yours.... did the take off the next day came up with 126,XXX.

Next one I sent the proposal at 153,000, same deal, did the estiamte, and came up with 151,XXX.

Moral of the story, software, labor units, spread sheets, calculators, linesman's, channel locks are all tools and their abilities are limited to those that use them.

Estimating is both a right brain and left brain activity. Sometimes you just have to "feel it."


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## wcord (Jan 23, 2011)

telsa said:


> No kidding.
> 
> Absolutely everybody has to start somewhere -- and that somewhere is usually in the blind.
> 
> ...


There are the times, one is offered a project, as long as you match the 'other guy'. I have done this a few times and in veritably his price was too tight to make a decent profit. Not worth the stress for me!

I bid a lot of public tenders, and if I get 10% of them, I'm satisfied. But then, I don't go cheap on my rate or material markup, so I don't expect to get too many. I tend to get the specialized and out of town jobs, where the competition is smaller.

Two bits of advice that were told to me 30 years ago;
1. If you get every job you bid, you're doing something wrong.
2. Better not to get the job, then get one and lose money

To the OP, if you don't have the experience then you better have enough money behind you to cover your loses for the first while. Restaurants are very competitive, so there is very little margin. 

And right now, it seems there are a thousand new companies out there competing with the established guys. I'm seeing 15 to 20 small to large companies going after $ 30K tenders 

I believe, you will see that most of the guys here are not keen on sharing actual numbers for labour units. As stated by the few so far, it's a learning process each of us have gone thru. If you want the easy way, buy a franchise (Mr Electric for example), hire an experienced estimator, or buy an established company, keeping the owner on , for a year or so.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Maybe this will help you. I have linked it 50 times at least answering the same question asked by others. http://electricalresources.com/Help/Electrical_Estimating_Techniques/NetHelp/default.htm


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

For so many small jobs over the years, I just "do the job in my head", and jot down figures on a pad as I imagine the job. Not really the recommended procedure, but it's always worked out for me when I choose that method. Sort of the "feeling" the other poster was talking about.


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## Bootss (Dec 30, 2011)

tom_3200 said:


> Just began bidding on smaller commercial jobs and would appriacate if anyone had any general competitve labour Unit spread sheets or information. I understand you would learn this over trial by fire but the help would be greatly appriciated. I will also say I am from Manitoba Canada, for any contractors that would be against help someone in their own area.


are you any good at laying out conduits in the foundation?


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## cdslotz (Jun 10, 2008)

mdfriday said:


> I estimated full time for 6 years before I went out full on to my own endeavor. I am thankful for that experience. It was well worth learning that on someone else's dime....in more ways than one.....
> 
> I knew when to tell the boss "NO." That is a good skill, and never forget the word "NO." Every time he did not listen to those around him telling him "this one is a bad idea," he regretted it.
> 
> ...


I have to agree with EBM as a first program. I used it for around 10 years and bid multi-million projects to small tenant finish jobs and even some resi.
Very reasonably priced.
I had it setup for small jobs that I could unit price....just pull up the assembly and count...take off service, etc....plus if I got the job, I have a detailed BOM.


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## dawgs (Dec 1, 2007)

cdslotz said:


> I have to agree with EBM as a first program. I used it for around 10 years and bid multi-million projects to small tenant finish jobs and even some resi. Very reasonably priced. I had it setup for small jobs that I could unit price....just pull up the assembly and count...take off service, etc....plus if I got the job, I have a detailed BOM.


We've been using EBM for years. I use it for commercial and industrial jobs. I have the residential adder also but have only used it once.


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## LuckyLuke (Jun 1, 2015)

dawgs said:


> We've been using EBM for years. I use it for commercial and industrial jobs. I have the residential adder also but have only used it once.


I just installed the demo and will be playing with it over the weekend. Is it easy to make a custom assembly?


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## dawgs (Dec 1, 2007)

LuckyLuke said:


> I just installed the demo and will be playing with it over the weekend. Is it easy to make a custom assembly?


Easy enough. It's explained well in the manual. Like anything, just takes time to learn the system.


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## dawgs (Dec 1, 2007)

LuckyLuke said:


> I just installed the demo and will be playing with it over the weekend. Is it easy to make a custom assembly?


I do a lot of heavy industrial, so I had to add tray cable assemblies to the system. It has tray but didn't have tray cable.😕


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

Sometimes I bid by how much the plans weigh. This method works best in front of the customer


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