# How Much is too Much?



## Bob Sisson (Dec 17, 2012)

This question comes up a fair amount.

How much can (should) you load up a 200A residential Panel?

I recently inspected a house with 2x200A service.

The Right panel looked clean. No Double Taps, clean, neat, labeled. Nothing to write about. Mostly lighting or General use circuits.

The Left Panel had over 380A of double pole breakers, 320A of which I could see possibly being 'on' at the same time (and a lot more general & lighting circuits)

Heat Pumps X 3, Heat pump Aux heat x 3, two water heaters. Electric cooktop, wall ovens, Advantium Microwave, Dryer, Sauna, Well Pump, Septic Grinder, a few baseboard heaters, and a few other random big things...ie a BIG all electric house.

(There was plenty of overall capacity for that house, but they seemed to put ALL of the big loads in one panel...)

There was enough ELSE going on electrically in the house that I called for an electrician, and I RECOMMENDED that he look a the load in each panel.

QUESTION: At what point is a panel "overloaded" enough that I can recommend having an electrician look at the loads even if there is nothing else going on?

Looking at E3704 doesn't help much... looks like 65-75% of load, or between 270-300A max of heavy demand loads (big breakers) could max out a panel without looking at the lighting and general use loads.

Again, I remind you I am doing TRIAGE. You all are the experts and can do the load calculations and such. I am looking for a SYMPTOM or clue that says "CALL FOR AN ELECTRICIAN"

PS... I do some basic sanity stuff... things like: Houses with Furnaces and AC won't typically have the AC on at the same time as the Baseboard heaters...


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

you could have 1000 amps of breakers in a 200A panel. It doesn't mean anything.

You need to calculate the loads in the panel.

At least turn everything on and put an amprobe on it for starters.


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## 120/208 (Nov 18, 2012)

The Left Panel had over 380A of double pole breakers, 320A of which I could see possibly being 'on' at the same time (and a lot more general & lighting circuits)



Explain how you came up with that calculation?


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## Jack Legg (Mar 12, 2014)

Bob Sisson said:


> This question comes up a fair amount.
> 
> How much can (should) you load up a 200A residential Panel?
> 
> ...


You cant tell by looking at the service
The only way to know is by using one of the dwelling service calculation methods (general or optional) from the NEC

mention it in your report if you think its an issue.

I love home inspection reports, especially the double tapped breakers:thumbup: easy money


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## 120/208 (Nov 18, 2012)

Jack Legg said:


> You cant tell by looking at the service
> The only way to know is by using one of the dwelling service calculation methods (general or optional) from the NEC
> 
> mention it in your report if you think its an issue.
> ...


Doubled tapped = money in the bank account.:thumbup:


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## FlyingSparks (Dec 10, 2012)

I love the term "double tapped." Haha


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Long time no read Bob

~CS~


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Bob Sisson said:


> Looking at E3704 doesn't help much... looks like 65-75% of load, or between 270-300A max of heavy demand loads (big breakers) could max out a panel without looking at the lighting and general use loads.


E3704

It's really just another calc method

~CS~


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Electrician has to do a load calc.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Anyone else check panel breakers for heat via touch here....? 

~CS~


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

99cents said:


> Electrician has to do a load calc.


Bingo. Screw triage, this is beyond your realm or concern.


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## Bob Sisson (Dec 17, 2012)

When I see double Pole breakers I look at the "listed" load. Water heaters, AC, Heat Pump, Heat Pump Aux heat, Oven, stove, Well, etc... and keep track of the type of load. I am looking for likely continuous resistance or heavy motor loads. 

There are loads that are only on for a few minutes, or that have a heavy starting load and then drop quickly. Well pumps, grinder pumps, things like that.

AC & Heat Pumps compressors, Aux Heat units, Baseboard heaters, Dryers, water heaters, Ranges and ovens all are (or can be) continuous loads. I keep track of those and look to see what the MAXIMUM likely load is. Again an AC compressor and the Baseboard Heater aren't likely to be on at the same time, while a Heat Pump, Aux heat unit and the Baseboard might be...

At some point there is just too much *possible* load for one panel....

At what point do you guys starting adding up name plates and figuring out actual loads?

THAT is the number that I want to use to say "Have an electrician look at the loads"

Oh, yes... and what would you say if you saw a NEW 200A panel on one of these... Permit, who needs a permit?

When the House was Built, it had a Gas stove, Gas dryer, Gas Furnace w/o AC...etc... When the remodel was done It had a BIG AC unit (no insulation in walls or attic), An electric dryer, dual electric wall ovens. The AC and the Dryer alone were more than 60A...


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

Isn't there a standard set of inspection items for each trade you are qualified to inspect for your license or profession ? It looks like you are going beyond your scope. 

I would use your gut feel, and if something looks a little off, make a note that you recommend a licensed electrician take a look. If I was a seller, and an inspector wrote up a report with some unnecessary corrections on there, I'd be pissed.


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## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

120/208 said:


> The Left Panel had over 380A of double pole breakers, 320A of which I could see possibly being 'on' at the same time (and a lot more general & lighting circuits)
> 
> 
> 
> Explain how you came up with that calculation?


X2 lmao, glad to see this guy is back. Always a riot.


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## Jack Legg (Mar 12, 2014)

*"At what point do you guys starting adding up name plates and figuring out actual loads?"*

if its a 100 or 150 amp service and I am adding a load more than 30 amps, I will do a quick load calc.

If it already has a 200 amp service, I rarely bother


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## Bob Sisson (Dec 17, 2012)

Yup, there is definately a "Standard" that HI's are supposed to follow. Most states use the American Society of Home Inspectors (ASHI) standard. Many of us are also Licensed. and many of us are also Nationally certified (I am both). but as you know that doesn't mean much. It is a *starting* point.

Even NFPA 73 (Standard for Electrical Inspections for Existing Dwellings) is pretty vague and very thin. It is worth reading though. 
(http://tinyurl.com/mr66do8) 


Most GOOD inspectors go to school, lots of school, so that we can learn to report -all- the defects we see, and explain the ramifications of the defects. The bad ones haven't seen a refresher course in years, on anything, much less electrical codes... Many Inspectors don't go to anything but "Inspector" training, which is pretty lame. The good ones go to every class we can find from Becket Burners for Oil Furnaces, to Geothermal and everything in between, including the updates for the county adoption of the current NEC Code (Finally) with their own additions. 

Oh yea, and some of us even brave the forums even though we often get flamed for asking questions to write better reports.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Don't you have a local electrician on speed dial?

We can give you free advice but, with free advice, you get what you pay for.


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## Jack Legg (Mar 12, 2014)

Bob, I'm licensed in your area. If your ever in a pickle, and need someone to look something over, PM me


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

Bob Sisson said:


> ... Ranges and ovens all are (or can be) continuous loads. ...


It is very very unlikely that a range or oven is a continuous load as defined in the NEC.


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## Bob Sisson (Dec 17, 2012)

OK, what is "unnecessary" to fix?
Double Taps?
20A on 14g
Missing GFCI's
Reversed Polarity?
Worn SE drop?
Rusted Panelboard?
loose Aluminum Wires?
Zinsco Panels?
Outlets that are painted so much you can't tell if they are 2 or 3 wire?

These are all defects. Most can KILL or cause a fire which will kill you. some are unlikely, but possible.

There are rules (codes) that specifically say fix these, don't do that, and other things for a REASON. 

Under what circumstance is it OK, or "to code" to put a stranded 14ga wire and a solid 12ga wire into a 20A breaker labeled for a single wire?

Under what circumstance is a panel that contains Rust "OK"

Under what circumstance is it "OK" to connect a worn though SE cable drop with the neutral exposed to a brand new 200A panel without permits?

Under what circumstances is it OK to put a GE Breaker in a Cutler Hammer CH Panelboard? (PS...they don't fit but that doesn't mean I haven't seen someone try it)

If you are willing to put your license, and insurance, on the line and say that a specific defect is "OK" in writing, more power to you. My License number and my signature is on every WRITTEN report.

If you want to say "He is technically correct in that it is wrong, but the hazard is minimal and it will cost a lot to fix..." and let them make an *informed* decision, -that- I will support.

But tell me in what world are these wires OK? (yes they were live) The seller didn't want to fix it because there were wire nuts on the ends and it had been there for years.

Or the painted panel. The builders "Electrician" was going to clean it with paint remover. He said it was "OK" but would clean it to make the buyer happy.


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## Bob Sisson (Dec 17, 2012)

I have several Electricians I use for referrals. I am told my recommendations are too expensive. 

The selling realtor's "electrician" is cheaper and not as picky. He will -ok- that... He also can fix the loose toilet and change the furnace filter. He is fully licensed and has insurance to...


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## FlyingSparks (Dec 10, 2012)

You know that there are places in the code that allow you to bypass 240.4(D)(3)?


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## FlyingSparks (Dec 10, 2012)

So you could use a 14awg conductor on a 20a OCPD if the OCPD was feeding anything in the 240.4(G) table.


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## FlyingSparks (Dec 10, 2012)

Of course you need to understand all the associated rules and etc, but yes in some cases, you can have a 14awg conductor on a 20a OCPD


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Bob Sisson said:


> I have several Electricians I use for referrals. I am told my recommendations are too expensive.
> 
> The selling realtor's "electrician" is cheaper and not as picky. He will -ok- that... He also can fix the loose toilet and change the furnace filter. He is fully licensed and has insurance to...


He's a handyman, not an electrician. Your realtor has a license. Why does he/she use an unlicensed and unqualified "electrician"?

Never mind answering that. We're talking about realtors here...


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## Bob Sisson (Dec 17, 2012)

Yes, there are instances where you can do that. HVAC is a specific example. The NAMEPLATE on a AC compressor may list a 40A breaker but 23.6A (10ga) wiring. Haven't seen any devices that are 14ga/20A though.

http://tinyurl.com/kcr936t

Manufactures nameplate or installation instruction trump code. (thats also in the NEC) 

BUT.... you have to have the instructions or Nameplate. You can't do it "just because"

PS...that means you need to READ things... and may be go back to look at something again. But/and I have never seen a single pole device with such a nameplate....


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

Bob, I have a friend who was a Contractor, and is now a Home Inspector and is killing it !!! No physical labor required guys.


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## Bob Sisson (Dec 17, 2012)

To the person who laughed at "Double tap" is there a more appropriate term?

I know there is no such thing as a Sub-panel in the NEC, or a "Hot Water Heater" so is there a "proper" term for Double-Tap or were you snickering at something else...
(as in the gangster movies...)





PS... it's a "Water Heater" or if you want a "Cold Water Heater" You don't heat hot water. Learned that's the way to get flamed in the plumbers forum real fast.


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## FlyingSparks (Dec 10, 2012)

Bob Sisson said:


> To the person who laughed at "Double tap" is there a more appropriate term?
> 
> I know there is no such thing as a Sub-panel in the NEC, or a "Hot Water Heater" so is there a "proper" term for Double-Tap or were you snickering at something else...
> (as in the gangster movies...)
> ...


I'm just a pain in the ass, don't take it personally.

There is no term for what you describe to my knowledge that makes sense code wise. A "tap" is a different thing all together when it comes to the code definition. I'd just describe it as a manufacturer's instructions issue.


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## Ty Wrapp (Aug 24, 2011)

dronai said:


> Bob, I have a friend who was a Contractor, and is now a Home Inspector and is killing it !!! No physical labor required guys.


...and in Kansas you don't even need a license.


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

Bob Sisson said:


> OK, what is "unnecessary" to fix?
> Double Taps?
> 20A on 14g
> Missing GFCI's
> ...


You can list all those items on a report for the buyer/seller to have an electrician to look at should they choose to. But I don't think I would even mention "possible overload of panel or service". You need to fully understand how to do a load calculation.
If you tell (put in report) your client that a panel is possibly overloaded and don't have anything to back it up such as a load calculation, you have overstepped you bounds as a HI and put undue stress on buyers/sellers.
Many people don't understand the role of a HI and think they are some type of governing official and can enforce anything they write up.


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## StevieScott (Jul 26, 2014)

I think you need 200 to 250 amp panel. According to the size of your house this is enough. No need to think for more.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

StevieScott said:


> I think you need 200 to 250 amp panel. According to the size of your house this is enough. No need to think for more.


Square footage is only part of a load calc.

Who are these guys?

A little bit of knowledge is dangerous.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Bob Sisson said:


> Oh yea, and some of us even brave the forums even though we often get flamed for asking questions to write better reports.


It's part of our charm Bob....:jester: ~CS~


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Bob Sisson said:


> OK, what is "unnecessary" to fix?
> Double Taps?
> 20A on 14g
> Missing GFCI's
> ...


I see this list in my daily rounds servicing local apt /commercial structures Bob

Most of it wasn't wired by an electrician, most of it will never see anyone of authority, most will be tended by a handyman , marketed via advocated by relator biased HI's , and most will continue to have the potential you claim it has _even if we drop a dime or formal complaint_ to the powers that be.

After a career of trying to work with the system, it's fairly clear we're really not big on preventative measures (much like our HC system) , it's undermanned, underfunded, under-everything 

The best i do is try and peddle smoke detection to these electrical debaucheries , and hope no one goes up with the conflaguration

~CS~


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

Bob Sisson said:


> Manufactures nameplate or installation instruction *trump code*. (thats also in the NEC)


:no:

What is in the code is 110.3(B);

*(B) Installation and Use*. Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling.

The AHJ does not *have to* accept the listing or labeling from any NRTL if they can determine a non-compliant issue.

From 90.7;

_ It is the intent of this Code that factory-installed internal wiring or the construction of equipment need not be inspected at the time of installation of the equipment, except to detect alterations or damage, if the equipment has
been listed by a qualified electrical testing laboratory that is recognized as having the facilities described in the preceding paragraph and that *requires suitability for installation in accordance with this Code.*_

Pete


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

I will never figure out why you guys lambaste this guy so much. He never once has said he was going to perform any electrical work. He is asking decent questions on when he needs to recommend an electrician. 
He doesn't take work away from us like a handyman or HVAC guy. Why the hate?


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Pete m. said:


> :no:
> 
> What is in the code is 110.3(B);
> 
> ...


That certainly clarifies things. I had a hard time understanding a blanket statement like "Installation instructions trump code" (especially when you see the Chinese to English translation on a different thread...)


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

sbrn33 said:


> I will never figure out why you guys lambaste this guy so much.


Cuz he's an HI with a _brain_, and the _balls_ to use 'em here....:thumbsup: ~CS~


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

99cents said:


> That certainly clarifies things.


Yeah

There's *manufacturers*, *code makers*, the code itself, the ahj, and you and i somewhere down with the small shellfish and crabs 99....:jester: ~CS~


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

1 WH
1 Electric clothes dryer
1 20 amp 220 volt rec for window ac
9 110v circuits

All on a 60 amp service.

HO wants to add an electric range.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

Bob,
I think you can learn exactly what you need to by looking at the examples in the back of a NEC book. Follow all of the referenced sections, read all referenced sections (even the references in a reference). You seem to be a smart man, you can do this, and it will raise your knowledge level in a way you desire.


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## zen (Jun 15, 2009)

I think its good that hi are willing to learn as to do a better job , but my honest opinion is that to be able to make an electrical evaluation without the background knowldge , you are merely offering a opinion. If you want to offer a certified report your gonna need a licensed electrician that wouldnt be hired for any repairs to walk with you, show you code violations and or poor workmanship. ..Right now your report holds no merit because you arent qualified to say the panel is overloaded. 

learning to learn


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## Bob Sisson (Dec 17, 2012)

I agree. I am trained, and licensed, and have lots of background.... 

However, as I have written many times, I am there for Triage and am looking for justification "symptoms" to have one of you guys come in and do a full workup.

The house I did a few weeks ago was a good example. Monster all-electric house. They put ALL of the lighting and general purpose loads in one panel, and ALL of the larger loads in the other. The "big-load" panel had nothing but two-pole breakers. Not a problem in itself, but most of them were 30A+, and there were some 60A+ ones as well.

We have had a big discussion about is this OK....and the majority said that an "Electrician" needs to do a proper load calc.

Is there a problem, maybe. Will the seller be pissed if I call for an electrician and there is not a problem, YES. Will the buyer be even more pissed if they get a personal brownout when a lot of the Big loads cycle on together and they loose their computer work, ABSOLUTELY.

How many houses have you been in where there were 4-5 MONSTER AC compressors without Delay start units. Any hiccup and they all (hard) restart together and everything in the house dims enough to make TV's, computers, and other sensitive things groan. Add a few fridges, a well pump and some other loads and it can get "interesting" 

Am I qualified to do a load calc...Nope, don't want to, as I have a lot of other things in the house to look at, I want them to PAY YOU do do the calc and say thumbs up or thumbs down. Thumbs down and you may get a Heavy Up from 200 >> 400 or 400>> 600.

And yes, I have seen 600A+ service in a residence, had their own transformer in a vault, large gutters feeding many panels, looked like what I expect for a Multi-family unit... Add the Generator control, the Well controls, the Elevator control and I forget what else and it was impressive. (and scary with all of the hacks that had been hung off the panels by who know who?)


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

I have rarely had an issue with clients when I explain my limitations. You're situation may be different if you have a "Yes" or "No" check list.

Personally, I don't see any problems with telling customers you have reason to be suspicious of panel overloading. They're not getting visits from an electrician, plumber, HVAC guy, structural engineer, etc. for what you charge for an inspection. If that's what they want, give them your $3000.00 full meal deal.


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## Bob Sisson (Dec 17, 2012)

Our report starts as "Serviceable, Defects, Hazards" and then has LOTS of room for comments as there are so many conditions that just can't be captured by checkboxes.

It is always amazing to me that people may be negotiating a 1.2 MILLION dollar deal, and they are complaining about a possible $800 electrician visit.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

People pay for what impresses their neighbours. Inspections don't fall under that category.


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## Bob Sisson (Dec 17, 2012)

Ain't that the truth! And our job is to uncover the stuff in places that no-one ever goes or sees as well....


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

Hi have no trouble with home inspectors as long as they don't overstepped their bounds so as a matter-of-fact I think they're good for the industry overall because it can lead to revenue for us what's wrong with that I think this is a win-win.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Bob Sisson said:


> Our report starts as "Serviceable, Defects, Hazards" and then has LOTS of room for comments as there are so many conditions that just can't be captured by checkboxes.
> 
> It is always amazing to me that people may be negotiating a 1.2 MILLION dollar deal, and they are complaining about a possible $800 electrician visit.


There's nothing amazing about it. Most buyers who pre-qualify will only look towards homes from that price & up, and don't HAVE the $800.00 to spend.


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