# Feeling in a bit of a rut as regards my apprenticeship



## TokenFemale

Hey guys,

I'm a second year union apprentice, I joined the program with no mechanical skills but a solid math background. So far my progression in the program has been so-so: predictably i do well in school and on circuit theory courses but struggle at the job. I spend a lot of time cleaning and sorting material which I understand is part of the game but leaves me feeling bored and restless. I just came off several years on disability for serious health issues so the adjustment back to school and career hasn't been easy but I'm getting by and I think I've done well despite this.

Should I feel this on-edge and unfulfilled at this stage in the game? My friends in first year are mostly laid-off and asking themselves the same questions. I'm working but I don't think I'm getting much out of it. I'm repeatedly questioned by the training director whether I've made the right career choice and I question that myself, but according to the options presented to me I feel this is the best place for me rn. I am emphatically NOT a people person and tend to be more analytical and technically oriented. IT might be a better fit but I don't see how i'll make it thru a four year degree with my support network being as shoddy as it is.

I have a bud who's a recovering alcoholic and he's talented and dedicated to his work but it seems like no one really wants to give him slack for what seems like a significant health issue. we are similar in that neither of us are particularly privileged so there's a bit of a self-control deficit that comes with that; we don't have the same coping resources as those from better backgrounds.

i face some discrimination due to my gender but it feels largely minor especially compared to other life experiences. my pal says what i'm going thru is common in the industry (his sister is a pipefitter) and that he'd quit if he had to be me. I agree with him some days, it's no fun.

sorry this is a bit unfocused: maybe one of you readers will be able to pull things together somewhat.


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## daveEM

Change contractors. A smaller contractor maybe? Different job site?

A 2nd year should be doing some work. However if your employer has 50 electricians working... lots of competition.

Hang with the best most of the time if you can swing it.


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## MechanicalDVR

I agree with Dave, call the hall and tell your BA you aren't getting any serious OTJ and would like to move on to a different employer.


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## Easy

I think you should be doing all kinds of electrical tasks by now. The union would be helpful in this matter. Have you talked to your Union Stewart? I wish I knew more about the mechanics of an apprenticeship in this modern world we live in. It's almost maddening to see someone like you going to school and trying to learn the electrical trade but not getting good hands on training and working one on one with a Journeyman. I would however keep pushing forward with your efforts and take comfort in knowing that there are good jobs out there.


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## chicken steve

This trade hasn't had much mercy or patience for noobs. 

Many of us came up under the _lash_ of dismal apprenticeships ,where the only possible betterment was _skipping _from one EC to the next

Many of us felt we needed to seek out enlightenment _beyond_ what our Jmen or instructors offered.

We are not a self perpetuating species....

~CS~


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## TokenFemale

daveEM said:


> Hang with the best most of the time if you can swing it.


no kidding: i had a great journeyman on a recent solar job and wouldn't let him out of my sight for eight weeks but apparently this translates to "I want his c*ck".

they're probably not serious about training me judging from one of our contractor's benign sexism, "you're in charge of stock because women are more organized".

i'm a ****ty mechanic, this is largely lack of experience: i'm decent at figuring stuff out on my house, I just don't know anything. it's probably less intuitive for me than it is for other guys i work with but hard to say as they've been around it much longer than I have.

whatever if it doesn't pan out i'll do EE.


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## Easy

It's not the trade it's the people your working with and the job site you are working at. If your going to work for a contractor I would try a small shop where employees are more like family members. It takes time to find the right place to work and it's not like you can skip from company to company but at some point you will land a good job and be running things. I have 2 female friends that are happy at their jobs. One is a Lead Electrician running a maintenance crew at a very large company and the other one works for a large electrical contractor. Both are happy as can be. Just stand your ground and don't take the abuse. You have rights not only as a Woman but as a human. I don't agree that women are more organized but they have patients beyond that of a man.


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## chicken steve

True the larger companies _won't _take time to show noobs anything, they'll stick you on some repetitious detail , then tell you you're slow.

Smaller companies might be a better choice, in that they'll need you to do _everything_ that comes their way vs. some stockroom existence.

~CS~


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## Cow

You may need to find a different contractor.

We had a first period female apprentice come to work for us a few months back, I threw her right into the crew doing projects right along with the rest of them. I want apprentices learning from day one. Not day 180 or 360. I didn't have her sweeping and sorting material, etc. That's what a shop person is for. 

I would expect a second year to be familiar with common tasks by this point. Able to size circuits and run conduit well, etc. 

If you're still sorting material all the time as a second year, you're being held back from learning the trade. You should already know the parts well before you're a second year, so it sounds like you're hitting a wall at this point.

I'd try to work for someone else first before you give it up all together. It's a very rewarding trade if you get in with the right company. We do a little of everything, literally, and the crew seems to like the variety and freedom we have.

Good luck.


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## Easy

I think a small company would be a place to learn lots of stuff quickly just by the hands on experience. I cant believe how much different things are now than back when I roamed with the dinosaurs.


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## Easy

Cow said:


> You may need to find a different contractor.
> 
> We had a first period female apprentice come to work for us a few months back, I threw her right into the crew doing projects right along with the rest of them. I want apprentices learning from day one. Not day 180 or 360. I didn't have her sweeping and sorting material, etc. That's what a shop person is for.
> 
> I would expect a second year to be familiar with common tasks by this point. Able to size circuits and run conduit well, etc.
> 
> If you're still sorting material all the time as a second year, you're being held back from learning the trade. You should already know the parts well before you're a second year, so it sounds like you're hitting a wall at this point.
> 
> I'd try to work for someone else first before you give it up all together. It's a very rewarding trade if you get in with the right company. We do a little of everything, literally, and the crew seems to like the variety and freedom we have.
> 
> Good luck.[/Right on.. Well said.]


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## chicken steve

_dinosaurs_.....lol....

There's a lot to be said about _who _your partnered with as a noob. 

Some will give enough rope, some just want a ' _tool sherpa_' 

I can recall partnering a teen noob with an older spark on his last '_big job_' before hangin' it up. 

The 'ol boy showed him a lot of '_old school_' methods , not exactly standard fare these days, but the opportunity was worth while.

~CS~


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## Southeast Power

TokenFemale said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> 
> I just came off several years on disability for serious health issues so the adjustment back to school and career hasn't been easy but I'm getting by and I think I've done well despite this.
> My friends in first year are mostly laid-off and asking themselves the same questions.
> I'm working but I don't think I'm getting much out of it.
> I'm repeatedly questioned by the training director whether I've made the right career choice and I question that myself,
> 
> I am emphatically NOT a people person and tend to be more analytical
> 
> I don't see how i'll make it thru a four year degree with my support network being as shoddy as it is.
> 
> I have a bud who's a recovering alcoholic it seems like no one really wants to give him slack for what seems like a significant health issue.
> 
> we are similar in that neither of us are particularly privileged
> 
> so there's a bit of a self-control deficit that comes with that;
> we don't have the same coping resources as those from better backgrounds.
> 
> i face some discrimination due to my gender
> it feels largely minor especially compared to other life experiences.
> he'd quit if he had to be me.
> I agree with him some days, it's no fun.
> 
> sorry this is a bit unfocused:
> 
> maybe one of you readers will be able to pull things together somewhat.


I see the problem.


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## brian john

Does your local do transfers every year?


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## nrp3

Not to get off track too much, but how is the Union doing around New England these days? Economy seems to be doing well, not having much trouble finding work on the non union side. Hopefully some of that is making its way to the Union side, offering some ability to move around to different contractors.


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## TokenFemale

Cow said:


> You may need to find a different contractor.


I've moved around a bit, I find I have different experiences with different journeymen. The contractor I'm working for rn is decent compared to other jobs I've been on (airport lighting, a solar field) which are more labor intensive and don't offer a lot of opportunities to learn. Although we're technically apprentices and meant to learn contractors will typically treat us like laborers. This seems to be normal par the course of apprenticeships in my local.



> If you're still sorting material all the time as a second year, you're being held back from learning the trade. You should already know the parts well before you're a second year, so it sounds like you're hitting a wall at this point.


I couldn't agree more, it's bull****. Albeit I'm still at 1500 hours or so due to hardly working: I guess still technically a first year apprentice. It's not right tho.

I contacted my representative re: some of the sexist bull**** in my last apprentice report and he hasn't even bothered to respond; it's a great feeling when people care about you.

I told a friend of mine that I made a mistake not requesting a layoff from my last gig, which I followed up by mentioning I didn't think my request would be taken seriously. I think that perception was correct.


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## Easy

If you are young and don't mind traveling you can find good jobs with companies who train and offer good pay. Not sure if your in a union apprenticeship you could abandon ship and work non union but there are some good non union jobs that pay well. I started out working non-union for about 4 years received my license by showing my hours and taking the test. Many years ago. Not sure about todays standards. After 4 years working non union I landed a great job with maintenance local 2295 in Los Angeles. Worked at the same location for 31 years. I was never out of work during my first 4 years but I had to move from state to state to stay employed. The wages ranged quite a bit but overall I was exposed to all kinds of stuff and that gave me a well rounded exposure to many facets of the trade. Residential, commercial and industrial. I'm sure it's not as easy now days but if you really want to be in the trade you have to pay your dues. If the Journeyman asks you to dig a ditch or carry materials work fast and hard, get it done, don't complain. You are showing him or her you really want to work and learn. In return they will probably be more responsive to your questions and teaching you.


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## TokenFemale

Easy said:


> If the Journeyman asks you to dig a ditch or carry materials work fast and hard, get it done, don't complain. You are showing him or her you really want to work and learn. In return they will probably be more responsive to your questions and teaching you.


I generally figure stuff is not about me and they're just trying to get the work done.

it makes me nervous tho when it becomes a pattern.


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## brian john

1st don't sell yourself short, token female insinuates you are there for a quota, not your brains and skills


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## kg7879

I am a Journeyman and I am in the union going on 11 years and this is my advice. I would within the next month seriously evaluate if you feel you are going to get what you want from the union apprenticeship. If not start looking around for other opportunities, whether that is non-union or another field entirely. 

I can tell you it is a common occurrence for apprentices to go through their entire apprenticeship and not learn a lot of the basics. The reason for this is the contractors are focused on their current jobs. They do not see the big picture and what their lack of training is doing to this industry. I was never asked once during my apprenticeship what my progression was, my skills or knowledge were. 

So, in my opinion, you need to take control of your future otherwise you are going to be unfulfilled.


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## brian john

kg7879 said:


> So, in my opinion, you need to take control of your future otherwise you are going to be unfulfilled.


Does your local do apprentice transfers? I feel this is a very important as for the most part, it paves the way for a variety of work.


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## gnuuser

to the op 
you already have the biggest and best tool that many lack 
good skills in math are essential to the job as electrician. you also have the computer to search the net with for relevant information.
what you chose to do with it is your choice.

my apprenticeship at work was quite *****y and i had to find all the training info myself. my union wasn't much help either.
yet I still got my journeyman and mastery with high scores. (much to the chagrin of the management) and they did not want me to retire due to my training skills.
you can talk to us and we can point you in the direction of extra training resources that may help you, and we can describe methods as well.

sorting parts has an advantage if you know a part is bad and have the time tear it apart! observe and record what you see, take readings with an ohmmeter, record what you find!

good electrical parts (heating elements, motors, etc.) take a resistance reading on them and record it. you will have a reference of what it should be when you troubleshoot it.

and above all do not let your gender influence your skills period.
I have known many women electricians who were highly competent and would recommend them any day


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## splatz

I am really not sure what to make of the OP. 

First off right there's no reason for you to tolerate any kind of sexual harassment or abuse at work, if someone's really doing that, it's out of line and ought to be dealt with. If you're getting your chops busted like everyone else, just deal with it. 

You don't even have a year in. LOL. IMO in this day and age, you really haven't earned the right to bitch about getting more meaningful work yet, go sweep something. 

You're always talking about how you're great at higher math but have ****ty mechanical ability. Excellent, if I need to have an underling calculate some a bunch of standard deviations from test data, I'll come get you. Unfortunately you're not in the statisticians union you in the electricians union. Bad mechanical ability is something that's going to hold you back Einstein, you're in a job that requires some mechanical ability. Either develop some mechanical abitlity or go away. 

Which brings me to, look at every post you have here. I thought I recognized your forum nickname, you were complaining here before. In the months between, not one question about electrical theory, not one question about getting better with the tools, not one question about anything really. Given a group of geek forum electricians with aggregate centuries of experience, you choose to just bitch and talk about yourself. Speaks volumes. 

For my generation, in real life and not online, I SUSPECT the medicine for your problem is what was called a royal ass whipping. It's a shame it's gone out of style. What your advocate would do for you is scream at you and scare the **** out of you, something like this...



> EINSTEIN, do you know an equation that explains to you that the world does not owe you a living? You don't even have a year in and you're worried about feeling fulfilled. The world does not give a flying **** about your feelings of fulfillment. You're here to give eight and get paid for eight. Who's not holding up their end of the bargain? You want us to make a special spot for an electrician who can't strip wire, because you didn't get enough hugs when you were little? Go **** yourself, we all have problems. If you're getting harassed or abused, you tell me, we'll take care of the person that's out of line, otherwise, shut the **** up. You work with knuckledragging gorillas Einstein, how did you miss that? Go be a professor at MIT if you want to work with gentlemen. But these gorillas do get things done, don't they? MAKE YOURSELF OF SOME GODDAMNED USE TO SOMEONE. Or go home.


But, alas, that was the old days. Google "Copernican Revolution." 

This helpful response is more appropriate today. 

http://www.electriciantalk.com/f129/felt-rut-regards-my-apprenticeship-244578/


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## sparkiez

As far as school goes, you may have to be your own support system. I've been mine while earning an associates in Mechatronics, and now working on a bachelors in EE. Right now you are doing classes and learning theory. Regardless, stick it out until you learn that theory.

Mechanical ability is a must. I'm rather weak on mine as well. The only way to get the mechanical ability is to quit being afraid to mess things up (of course that implies that you need to be given the opportunity to do work). That being said, being able to get in there and do the work I have come along. A year ago I couldn't really walk into a shell of a building and start wiring it up. Now I can take a print, go into a shell and start the process of marking, boxing and selecting the race and start pulling circuits. Quit telling yourself that you suck at mechanical and start telling yourself that you are inexperienced with mechanical. That being said, I was lucky enough to spend a couple years with a 65 year old guy who was about to retire that made it a point to take me under his wing and teach me, though he purposely focused my training on controls rather than bending pipe.

If you are just getting off of disability, the contractors may not want to get you doing hard labor too soon. Just remember, YOU get to carve your path in life, and sometimes that means making sacrifices (in my case, I don't have time for a social life) and solving difficult problems (for me six months ago was how am I going to move my younger brother and I across the state with limited resources and no job in the new town all while jumping through university hoops to get to where I'm going). It wasn't easy, but I decided to start overcoming obstacles, and you can do the same too if you put your mind to it. Remember, YOU control your own destiny.


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## kg7879

brian john said:


> Does your local do apprentice transfers? I feel this is a very important as for the most part, it paves the way for a variety of work.


Yes and no. The real difference is contractors pick the apprentices they really want to train and make sure they get the education and job experience they need to be successful.


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## brian john

kg7879 said:


> Yes and no. The real difference is contractors pick the apprentices they really want to train and make sure they get the education and job experience they need to be successful.


Ours serve a 5-year apprenticeship and rotate every 12 months at the end of their apprenticeship they can solicit a contractor they liked and may get a job offer.

While often a PIA it serves the apprentices well most of the time.

Had a friend that during the subway boom transferred and each time he ended up with a firm working on the subway, they would ask him what he did the last job and he would tell them, "Setting deck inserts" and for 4 years that is all he did. Back then we did a 4-year apprenticeship.


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## telsa

brian john said:


> Ours serve a 5-year apprenticeship and rotate every 12 months at the end of their apprenticeship they can solicit a contractor they liked and may get a job offer.
> 
> While often a PIA it serves the apprentices well most of the time.
> 
> Had a friend that during the subway boom transferred and each time he ended up with a firm working on the subway, they would ask him what he did the last job and he would tell them, "Setting deck inserts" and for 4 years that is all he did. Back then we did a 4-year apprenticeship.


Imagine the Big Dig !


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## TokenFemale

kg7879 said:


> I am a Journeyman and I am in the union going on 11 years and this is my advice. I would within the next month seriously evaluate if you feel you are going to get what you want from the union apprenticeship. If not start looking around for other opportunities, whether that is non-union or another field entirely.


Honestly there are probably opportunities that are a better fit, I'm much more interested in the technical/engineering aspects of things but it doesn't seem like the program is structured to suit people like me. You have to learn to bend conduit before you can do controls, etc. I'm much better with the theory aspects but need more time and help mastering mechanical skills, as i have no relevant background.

it's probably rigid thinking on my part but I've never seen education pay off in terms of opportunities, I don't have a ton of optimism in that regard. a technician role might be a better fit but does it make more sense? i feel like i'm better off in the program.


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## TokenFemale

sparkiez said:


> If you are just getting off of disability, the contractors may not want to get you doing hard labor too soon. Just remember, YOU get to carve your path in life, and sometimes that means making sacrifices (in my case, I don't have time for a social life) and solving difficult problems (for me six months ago was how am I going to move my younger brother and I across the state with limited resources and no job in the new town all while jumping through university hoops to get to where I'm going). It wasn't easy, but I decided to start overcoming obstacles, and you can do the same too if you put your mind to it. Remember, YOU control your own destiny.


I certainly don't feel that way. I seem to spend an awful lot of time just managing fatigue and energy level and making sure my physiological needs are taken care of. Contractors and the hall have not been supportive in this regard which is frustrating because the point of doing apprenticeship is to have that kind of support and flexibility. I get a lot of comments about my supposed lack of motivation which is tough to read into, maybe they're picking up on the fact that I'm constantly run down.

Whatever, I guess I have to enroll in engineering school now.


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## sparkiez

TokenFemale said:


> I certainly don't feel that way. I seem to spend an awful lot of time just managing fatigue and energy level and making sure my physiological needs are taken care of. Contractors and the hall have not been supportive in this regard which is frustrating because the point of doing apprenticeship is to have that kind of support and flexibility. I get a lot of comments about my supposed lack of motivation which is tough to read into, maybe they're picking up on the fact that I'm constantly run down.
> 
> Whatever, I guess I have to enroll in engineering school now.


 Please know I'm not trying to be insensitive or myopic with this post, but the point of an apprenticeship is to be trained so that you are able to perform work in the field and get the job done in a workman like manner. In the scheme of the work force, your thoughts and feelings are irrelevant. It is not the union or the contractors job to make sure that you feel up to performing the work, nor is it the job of any other employer in any other trade or field. 

That statement is a rather harsh truth of the world, and I'm sorry that you weren't taught this lesson from a young age. That being said, there are different styles of leadership, and everyone has off days. Most of us suck it up and do our best. 

I'm not saying that how you feel, or any chronic illness that you have is irrelevant, but it is your job to do what you must so that you can perform your job function effectively. Engineering school is difficult, so do be prepared for that.


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## TokenFemale

sparkiez said:


> In the scheme of the work force, your thoughts and feelings are irrelevant. It is not the union or the contractors job to make sure that you feel up to performing the work, nor is it the job of any other employer in any other trade or field.
> 
> I'm not saying that how you feel, or any chronic illness that you have is irrelevant, but it is your job to do what you must so that you can perform your job function effectively. Engineering school is difficult, so do be prepared for that.


Oh I have no illusions in this respect, I just see it as being an insurmountable obstacle re: succeeding in this trade. I guess I find it problematic to listen to people tell me that my failure or success is due to my effort or lack thereof ("you are in control of your destiny") when I'm probably in a no-win situation. I'm happy to fail until I succeed but I don't think the union wants to wait for me to get my **** together, contractors have to make money, no one has time for my stupid car and health and family problems in this fast-paced money driven world.

got yelled at by the board the other week, told them i was dragging up from a job because i was getting sick.

"THAT'S YOUR JOB TO TAKE CARE OF YOUR HEALTH"

my doctor doesn't even know what's wrong with me, what the ****.

i'm lucky i can open the door and walk down the street, this sh*t seems like small fries in comparison.


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## Easy

I'm sorry your not feeling well and getting yelled at for that. No one at work should ever yell at you for any reason. Electrical work can be quite physical at times and even when we are in good health it can be difficult. Digging ditches, crawling through attics, climbing and lifting heavy things is all part of it. Even when you make it to journeyman status you may have to work alone on small jobs and it can be hard work. It is hard work. Today it's somewhat easier because of all the safety rules that are in place. There are better tools today than there were 10 or 20 years ago but often times contractors just don't want to spend the money as some tools are quite expensive. I would say work smarter not harder and remember to always be safe and take care of your health. Don't take abuse from anyone. Good Luck...


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## sparkiez

Well, it seems to me what you are missing from your job is camaraderie. It seems there is something chronically wrong with your health, which is not a good thing. To top it off, you are miserable. Once I'm miserable at a job, I always evaluate my concerns, as you have clearly done, and then make a decision. Perhaps you should consider going to a non-union shop. It is a toss-up. You could be dealing with the same things as you are now, or you could find a shop that treats their employees with compassion and respect. I work for a guy like that now, and I don't mind going above and beyond to answer weekend/late night service calls or working long shifts with no notice because we need to meet a deadline. I was able to send him a message Sunday about some personal stuff that happened that put me behind on homework, and he gave me two days off with no issues or complaints. As I said before, you are in control of your own destiny. You aren't happy with where you are at, so it is up to you to decide where you want to be and how to get there, but it is also equally important for you to have faith in yourself, which is much easier said than done. I don't necessarily believe that its time for a career change, but it might be time for a company change, if that is an option for you. Perhaps an opinion from another doctor as well.


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