# Wire color confusion



## Rap2 (Dec 17, 2010)

I bought a bunch of 10 gauge wire for use in 3 phase 208 branch circuits. Among the colors I have yellow orange and brown. Can I use these colors as current carrying conductors? I have looked through the NEC and can not find a reason why not. In fact I have always heard that three phase feeder circuits are identified by black, red, blue. I looked up every instance of the word blue in the NEC (pdf format) and could only find that color scheme as it pertained to Flat Cable in section 322.120. Any thoughts or help would be appreciated.


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

Why didn't you buy black ,red, blue if you knew that what was normally used? Are you wanting to have work done and are supplying the material? Are you an electrician?


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## Rap2 (Dec 17, 2010)

Sorry to not clarify, I did buy red black, they were out of blue that day but I did get more, this is a large job I basically bought all the wire on the shelf. 

Just wondering if I should return the brown, orange and yellow at which point I will have to fly in more wire or pay twice the price at another suppler. 

Thanks for the reply


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Rap2 said:


> Sorry to not clarify, I did buy red black, they were out of blue that day but I did get more, this is a large job I basically bought all the wire on the shelf.
> 
> Just wondering if I should return the brown, orange and yellow at which point I will have to fly in more wire or pay twice the price at another suppler.
> 
> Thanks for the reply


 
It would be legal to keep it, but be prepared to argue about it.


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

Yeah, if you have to "fly it in" you can probably get away with it. Is there an 277/480 volt in the building or on the property? If not your probably okay. Just don't make a habit of it.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

I'd use it.


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## Rap2 (Dec 17, 2010)

Thanks guys for the advice so far, I will probably not chance it on such a big job, will save the cheap wire for another day when I can afford to argue.

There is no 277/480 coming into the site but it just so happens I am creating a 504 volt circuit to go between 2 transformers on a very long wire run...


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## mrmike (Dec 10, 2010)

Rap2 said:


> I bought a bunch of 10 gauge wire for use in 3 phase 208 branch circuits. Among the colors I have yellow orange and brown. Can I use these colors as current carrying conductors? I have looked through the NEC and can not find a reason why not. In fact I have always heard that three phase feeder circuits are identified by black, red, blue. I looked up every instance of the word blue in the NEC (pdf format) and could only find that color scheme as it pertained to Flat Cable in section 322.120. Any thoughts or help would be appreciated.


 
I worked as an Industrial electrician for many years & I am pretty sure you can use those colors. In fact, Most of our 3 phase feeders were just black. We marked them 1,2 & 3 or L1 L2 L3. We did even have 3/c # 10 awg with all black conducters. Alot of the #12 awg cable we used were Blk,red,blue & orange, so perhaps that is where "you heard" has come from... some 3 phase cable like SOW cord is blk,red white. So to answer your question I beleive you are fine using those colors.......................


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

I would make sure you have no issues with 210.5(C).


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## electricalperson (Jan 11, 2008)

colors of wires are not a code requirement. you can use purple wire if you want. you just need to make sure that the colors are labeled for the system. i dont have my code book handy so i dont know the article. just make sure there isnt already a 277/480v system using the same colors in the building. you can also buy colored tape if you want


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## mrmike (Dec 10, 2010)

electricalperson said:


> colors of wires are not a code requirement. you can use purple wire if you want. you just need to make sure that the colors are labeled for the system. i dont have my code book handy so i dont know the article. just make sure there isnt already a 277/480v system using the same colors in the building. you can also buy colored tape if you want


 
The colors of the wires need to be indentified in the electrical schematics, prints drawings,etc. I don't know what you are saying though about "making sure there are not any of the same colors in the building. In the plant I worked in there were beaucoup 3 phase systems & switchgear,etc & most of them had the same color of wires.......................


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## electricalperson (Jan 11, 2008)

mrmike said:


> The colors of the wires need to be indentified in the electrical schematics, prints drawings,etc. I don't know what you are saying though about "making sure there are not any of the same colors in the building. In the plant I worked in there were beaucoup 3 phase systems & switchgear,etc & most of them had the same color of wires.......................


i know they need to be identified on the plans and all that stuff. i mean, you cant have the same color conductors on a 120/208v system and on a 480v system.


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

mrmike said:


> The colors of the wires need to be indentified in the electrical schematics, prints drawings,etc. I don't know what you are saying though about "making sure there are not any of the same colors in the building. In the plant I worked in there were beaucoup 3 phase systems & switchgear,etc & most of them had the same color of wires.......................


Just because you've seen it, doesn't mean it's right. dennis quoted the section...If you have 2 different voltages, you have to use say blue for one or the other, not both.


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## s.kelly (Mar 20, 2009)

electricalperson said:


> you can also buy colored tape if you want


 
For #10 wire re-identification is not legal if I recall correctly. But my code book is not handy at the moment either. As I recall #6 and up only.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

s.kelly said:


> For #10 wire re-identification is not legal if I recall correctly. But my code book is not handy at the moment either. As I recall #6 and up only.


 
Care to back that up when you find your code book?


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## vos (Apr 1, 2010)

s.kelly said:


> For #10 wire re-identification is not legal if I recall correctly. But my code book is not handy at the moment either. As I recall #6 and up only.


isn't that was just for white gray and green?


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

s.kelly said:


> For #10 wire re-identification is not legal if I recall correctly. But my code book is not handy at the moment either. As I recall #6 and up only.


So I can't pull 3 black #10's to a starter and phase tape them Y,O,B then? 

The smaller than #6 thing (ie. 200.6) only applies to grounded conductors.


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## F.A.T. (Dec 18, 2010)

My troll radar detects major trollage in the OP.


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

s.kelly said:


> As I recall #6 and up only.


I thought it was worded "6 and smaller" and "larger than 6". I don't have my book handy either so I can't back that up just yet but I'm 90% certain on it.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

mrmike said:


> The colors of the wires need to be indentified in the electrical schematics, prints drawings,etc. I don't know what you are saying though about "making sure there are not any of the same colors in the building. In the plant I worked in there were beaucoup 3 phase systems & switchgear,etc & most of them had the same color of wires.......................


What if there are no prints or drawings, then what do you do?


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## local134gt (Dec 24, 2008)

thegoldenboy said:


> I thought it was worded "6 and smaller" and "larger than 6".


That makes no sense whatsoever! 6 & smaller and larger than 6 pretty much means every size of conductor.


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## alpha3236 (May 30, 2010)

My god, don't some of you guys read the NEC? Code only addresses colors for grounding (bare, green, green with a yellow stripe, green screws), neutrals (white or natural gray), and orange for high legs. All else is wide open. Normally tho, we, as proffessionals use Brown, Orange, Yellow for 277/480 & Black, Red, Blue for 120/ 240(208). The rule for #6 & smaller only applies to neutrals & grounds. 
Come on guys!!!


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

alpha3236 said:


> ........All else is wide open. ..........



Not really. There are some very specific cases where a certain color is required.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

alpha3236 said:


> My god, don't some of you guys read the NEC? Code only addresses colors for grounding (bare, green, green with a yellow stripe, green screws), neutrals (white or natural gray), and orange for high legs. All else is wide open. Normally tho, we, as proffessionals use Brown, Orange, Yellow for 277/480 & Black, Red, Blue for 120/ 240(208). The rule for #6 & smaller only applies to neutrals & grounds.
> Come on guys!!!


 
30 post in you need to chill. Most electricians do not even own a NEC, much less read it. Hell a majority of inspectors are way behind in knowledge. You have not figured this out yet?


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## mrmike (Dec 10, 2010)

Magnettica said:


> What if there are no prints or drawings, then what do you do?


 
You use Common Sense & mark them L1 L2 L3 -1,2 or 3 or with colored tape., and all concerned be on the same page, or you draw your own print!!!!


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

local134gt said:


> That makes no sense whatsoever! 6 & smaller and larger than 6 pretty much means every size of conductor.


Identification of Grounded condutors; 200.6 
Identification of Grounding conductors; 250.119
Identification of Ungrounded conductors; 310.12
Identification of High Legs; 110.15
Identification of Feeders; 215.12


I simply said that he had the sizes mixed around, "6 and smaller" and "larger than 6" pertaining strictly to 200.6 and 250.119 (A). I hope that makes sense :thumbsup:

I had the articles quoted out but I couldn't properly space everything for some reason.​


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## s.kelly (Mar 20, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Care to back that up when you find your code book?


 
My fault, for some reason I was remembering that as a general requirement not the grounded and grounding requirements as cited by goldenboy. Seems he did my homework for me on this one!


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Just run three blacks and one green


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

thegoldenboy said:


> Identification of Grounded condutors; 200.6
> Identification of Grounding conductors; 250.119
> Identification of Ungrounded conductors; 310.12
> Identification of High Legs; 110.15
> ...


 
I think there is other item to throw in the mix is the cable you can remark one conductor for other colours as need but indivual conductor non., you can't do that unless you go over 16mm² { # 6 AWG }

That is the other items you have to watch as well.

Merci,
Marc


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

I think there has been enough guessing, enough 'this is how we always do it' type posts lets go right to the source.


2008 NEC



> *210.5 Identification for Branch Circuits.*
> 
> *(A) Grounded Conductor.* The grounded conductor of a
> branch circuit shall be identified in accordance with 200.6.
> ...





> *200.6 Means of Identifying Grounded Conductors.
> 
> (A) Sizes 6 AWG or Smaller.* An insulated grounded conductor
> of 6 AWG or smaller shall be identified by a continuous
> ...


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Part 2 of the code sections



> *250.119 Identification of Equipment Grounding Conductors.*
> Unless required elsewhere in this Code, equipment
> grounding conductors shall be permitted to be bare,
> covered, or insulated. Individually covered or insulated
> ...





> *215.12 Identification for Feeders.
> 
> (A) Grounded Conductor.* The grounded conductor of a
> feeder shall be identified in accordance with 200.6.
> ...


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

> *310.12 Conductor Identification.*
> 
> *(A) Grounded Conductors.* Insulated or covered grounded
> conductors shall be identified in accordance with 200.6.
> ...


I won't bother with high leg marking or marking for isolated systems in hospitals etc.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

What Bob said, AND,

I open alot of panels in various commercial establishements. Other than the wires stuffed in tighter than the cowboys in JLo, the other problem is a bazillion different colors landed on all different phases. No sense of reason, because their is no scheme at all. Just yesterday I saw a blu, blu, red, red, yel, org, brn, brn, pink, and so on down the odd numbered side. Have some craftsmanship and do it up proper, since it is a big job, its good to keep circuitry on the same sheet of paper for QC concerns.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Name the voltage ...


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

bbq said:


> name the voltage ...


 
120/208?


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

What is the fuse for??.. :blink:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

B4T said:


> What is the fuse for??.. :blink:



A load. :laughing:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

thegoldenboy said:


> 120/208?


OK, can you tell me the address? :thumbsup:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> What is the fuse for??.. :blink:



It is a shunt trip breaker and that fuse used to power the trip circuit which went up into the lobby of this multifamily dwelling to a manual fire alarm pull station.

So .. if you where running out of the building because of a fire and pulled this pull station on the way by you would not trip any fire alarm but you would kill the power to the building. :blink::blink:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

BBQ said:


> OK, can you tell me the address? :thumbsup:


 1000 Washington st suit 710
Boston , Ma 02114....:laughing::laughing:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

HARRY304E said:


> 1000 Washington st suit 710
> Boston , Ma 02114....:laughing::laughing:


That is about 6 miles south but pretty close. :laughing:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

480sparky said:


> A load. :laughing:


_YOUR_ a load..  :laughing:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BBQ said:


> It is a shunt trip breaker and that fuse used to power the trip circuit which went up into the lobby of this multifamily dwelling to a manual fire alarm pull station.
> 
> So .. if you where running out of the building because of a fire and pulled this pull station on the way by you would not trip any fire alarm but you would kill the power to the building. :blink::blink:


I must of missed that chapter in the NFPA book.. :blink:

So if the OCP doesn't work, the pull station does it for you..  :laughing:


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

BBQ said:


> Name the voltage ...


Easy! 
Obviously this is 480 volts (you can tell by the brown and yellow there....)
And it's a corner grounded delta (because B-phase is green. Green for ground, duh...!)
And this is feeding an intrinsically safe system (which is why the load conductors are light blue, of course!)

NEXT! :jester:

-John


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## crazymurph (Aug 19, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Name the voltage ...


 That pic is awesome. What a Flippin mess!


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## wirenut71 (Dec 5, 2010)

That article is 200.6 Identification of Grounded Conductors. 
Ungrounded Conductors can be any color other than gray, white, green


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## mrmike (Dec 10, 2010)

crazymurph said:


> That pic is awesome. What a Flippin mess!


 

WTF.................whats that light socket for ???? Look the breaker panel is nailed & has a ground wire under it?????  Green tape on a "hot conductor" Whew......... Did someone show him how to do this stuff??? Must be more of it from the ones that showed him !!!! YEOWWWWWWWWWWWWW !!


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

mrmike said:


> WTF.................whats that light socket for ???? Look the breaker panel is nailed & has a ground wire under it?????  Green tape on a "hot conductor" Whew......... Did someone show him how to do this stuff??? Must be more of it from the ones that showed him !!!! YEOWWWWWWWWWWWWW !!


 

I think that's an edison base fuse, probably a tap for control voltage. What an abortion


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## Control Freak (Mar 8, 2008)

Rap2 said:


> I bought a bunch of 10 gauge wire for use in 3 phase 208 branch circuits. Among the colors I have yellow orange and brown. Can I use these colors as current carrying conductors? I have looked through the NEC and can not find a reason why not. In fact I have always heard that three phase feeder circuits are identified by black, red, blue. I looked up every instance of the word blue in the NEC (pdf format) and could only find that color scheme as it pertained to Flat Cable in section 322.120. Any thoughts or help would be appreciated.


 
This guy doesn't seem to know basic industry standards such as black red blue or brown,orange, yellow and he's creating a 504 volt circuit between transformers? Friggin scary chit if you ask me.........even scarierer than the guy thats been installing transformers with out bonding the x0!

I mean I know guys might run their own circuits for like ceiling fans or a garage door opener, maybe change a receptacle but transformers??????????????? they should be hiring qualafied electricians to do that work!


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Control Freak said:


> This guy doesn't seem to know basic industry standards such as black red blue or brown,orange, yellow


You do realize there is no such national standard and some parts of the country do not use those colors?


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## NasonElectric (Dec 21, 2010)

120/208v circuits are black, red, and blue for hots. White for nuetral or grounded conductors and green for ground. 

277/480v circuits are brown, orange, and yellow for the hots. Grey for the nuetral and green for ground.

The only time orange is used in the same panel as black and red is when its a high leg configuration. Otherwise know as a open delta.

Anything smaller than a #6 must be painted to identify if color is wrong, yet typically inspector will let tape slide. I noticed alot of electricians saying use it. I do all my work in northern va and dc. Both of which will fail you for improper identification. The code book only gives you specifics for the high leg, neutral, and ground identification. However is states that the authority having jurisdiction rules over code book. Guess who the authority having jurisdiction typically is? You local county inspector of course


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

NasonElectric said:


> 120/208v circuits are black, red, and blue for hots. White for nuetral or grounded conductors and green for ground.
> 
> 277/480v circuits are brown, orange, and yellow for the hots. Grey for the nuetral and green for ground.
> 
> ...


Unless there is a local or state amendment what code is being broken? While I don't recommend using colors for not there standard application, but without a code article I'd tell the inspector where on his body he should stick his thumb. And then there is the question about purple and pink, under your theory these colors are worthless, I know they are commonly used as travelers and switch legs but there is no mention of them in the good book.


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## NasonElectric (Dec 21, 2010)

must agree with control freak. Did not notice he already threw colors out there already. Yes unlicensed individuals should not be wiring transformers. One they are expensive and two when they go boom the go boom. Just go on youtube and look at the various videos of tramsformers exploding or type in arc flash. You will rethink electric if you are not sure what you are doing. Or atleast invest in some PPE gear.


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## NasonElectric (Dec 21, 2010)

Been doing electrical work for 15 years now and never have used purple and pink to identify travelers. Typically run 12/3 mc or romex. Never seen it in purple and pink before. However I am on the east coast and I dont have to you pink and purple for travelers. Thats probably one of your particular state or county additions to the code. For instance Oregon requires pink and purple as well. They are very specific in all the other colors like I stated before. They where the closest state codes I could find in addition to the code book to where you are located. Type in http://www.oregon.gov/DAS/FAC/docs/1256211.pdf?ga=t and you will see what I mean


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## loopholeguy (May 18, 2010)

To the best of my knowledge, there is no 'national' code for colors, but there DAMN sure should be! WTF.


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

NasonElectric said:


> 120/208v circuits are black, red, and blue for hots. White for nuetral or grounded conductors and green for ground.
> 
> 277/480v circuits are brown, orange, and yellow for the hots. Grey for the nuetral and green for ground.


It is very common in my area to use brown, purple, yellow for 480/277 volts.

There is no code established color code.



> Anything smaller than a #6 must be painted to identify if color is wrong, yet typically inspector will let tape slide. I noticed a lot of electricians saying use it.


Got a code section that prohibits taping to identify an ungrounded conductor smaller than #6?




> I do all my work in northern va and dc. Both of which will fail you for improper identification. The code book only gives you specifics for the high leg, neutral, and ground identification.* However is states that the authority having jurisdiction rules over code book.* Guess who the authority having jurisdiction typically is? You local county inspector of course


There is absolutely no code section in the NEC that says that.

90.4 in no way shape or form allows the inspector to make up his or her own rules.

Chris


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

NasonElectric said:


> 120/208v circuits are black, red, and blue for hots. White for nuetral or grounded conductors and green for ground.
> 
> 277/480v circuits are brown, orange, and yellow for the hots. Grey for the nuetral and green for ground.


Yes a lot of places use those colors as you describe, however there is no national code or rule requiring it.

Welcome to the forum. :laughing:


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

NasonElectric said:


> 120/208v circuits are black, red, and blue for hots. White for nuetral or grounded conductors and green for ground.
> 
> 277/480v circuits are brown, orange, and yellow for the hots. Grey for the nuetral and green for ground.
> 
> The only time orange is used in the same panel as black and red is when its a high leg configuration. Otherwise know as a open delta.


Nice thoughts, but not a code requirement



NasonElectric said:


> Anything smaller than a #6 must be painted to identify if color is wrong, yet typically inspector will let tape slide. I noticed alot of electricians saying use it. I do all my work in northern va and dc. Both of which will fail you for improper identification. The code book only gives you specifics for the high leg, neutral, and ground identification. However is states that the authority having jurisdiction rules over code book. Guess who the authority having jurisdiction typically is? You local county inspector of course


 

Got anything to back this up other than opinions?


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## NasonElectric (Dec 21, 2010)

never said there was a code section that states particular color configuration of circuits. If you read my quote I state how only high leg neutral and ground colors are specified. I said that was typically a local code. Come round here and try to get around it and make up color configurations from building to building, it won't happen. Do you all atleast have a standard in your area you abide by or just wing it job from job? If so glad I know how to use a voltage tester and a rotation meter. 

And 90.4 states how the AHJ has the responsibility to interpret the code and for deciding on the equipment and materials. It also says that they may wave specific requirements of the code just as long as the maintain effective safety. in 100 you will find the definition of a AHJ. And in my area its the electrical inspector not so much the individual inspector but the building code enforcement where I am. It may be different in your area fire marshall etc..,. Where you are can you still hang transformers on the bottom of floor joist? We have to hang them from the top of joist now to help prevent sagging due to the weight of the transformer. Yet its no where in the code book, but once again don't do it and you will fail. Another example and these two counties are next to each other. Fairfax county in Va will allow you to put a panel under duct work or water lines just as long as there is protection above as code book states to prevent leaks etc.., from getting to panel. Loudon County don't care what it says about putting protection above it they don't want it under any foreign systems. That one I actually passed one day and then the chief inspector came the next day and failed me. I was pissed beyond pissed about this cause it clearly states in black and white you can. So I took to the board to try and get it passed but all I accomplished was waisting time and effort. Still had to move it, they will allow this in a home if you put up drywall but not a business. Another example is in a post tension building when you support your 2x4 fixtures Loudon only requires opposite corners to be supported to the deck, in fairfax they want all 4 corners. Code book just says must be securely fastened to building structure at appropriate intervals. They just interpret it differently. They are not judge and jury but the do have more power than most think, maybe its drastically different elsewhere but all I know is the dc metro area. Cant speak for CA or FL etc..,


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## wirenut71 (Dec 5, 2010)

mrmike said:


> WTF.................whats that light socket for ???? Look the breaker panel is nailed & has a ground wire under it?????  Green tape on a "hot conductor" Whew......... Did someone show him how to do this stuff??? Must be more of it from the ones that showed him !!!! YEOWWWWWWWWWWWWW !!



The light socket is a work light :thumbsup:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

mrmike said:


> WTF.................whats that light socket for ???? Look the breaker panel is nailed & has a ground wire under it?????  Green tape on a "hot conductor" Whew......... Did someone show him how to do this stuff??? Must be more of it from the ones that showed him !!!! YEOWWWWWWWWWWWWW !!



The light socket holds a fuse for a shunt trip control circuit

That is not a nail, that is a straight blade pan head sheet metal screw

The EGC is part of the shunt trip control circuit

Green as a hot from the power company was not that odd around here



I think it proves the point *NEVER TRUST A COLOR* test, test, test.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

NasonElectric said:


> Do you all at least have a standard in your area you abide by or just wing it job from job?


I work large commecial, it is usally spelled out in the job specifications. 





> If so glad I know how to use a voltage tester and a rotation meter.


You should never trust a color no mater how much of a standard it is in your area.





> And 90.4 states how the AHJ has the responsibility to interpret the code and for deciding on the equipment and materials.


Interpret is not the same as 'make up'




> in 100 you will find the definition of a AHJ. And in my area its the electrical inspector not so much the individual inspector but the building code enforcement where I am.


We know, some of the people responding to you are inspectors.




> Where you are can you still hang transformers on the bottom of floor joist? We have to hang them from the top of joist now to help prevent sagging due to the weight of the transformer. Yet its no where in the code book, but once again don't do it and you will fail.


That would be a building code violation unless the truss is engineered to support from the bottom chord.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

raider1 said:


> Got a code section that prohibits taping to identify an ungrounded conductor smaller than #6?Chris




200.6 Means of Identifying Grounded Conductors.

(A) Sizes 6 AWG or Smaller. An insulated grounded conductor
of 6 AWG or smaller shall be identified by one of
the following means:
(1) A *continuous* white outer finish.
(2) A *continuous* gray outer finish.
(3) Three *continuous* white stripes along the conductor’s
entire length on other than green insulation.
(4) Wires that have their outer covering finished to show a
white or gray color but have colored tracer threads in
the braid identifying the source of manufacture shall be
considered as meeting the provisions of this section.




Doesn't continuous mean the tape would have to be along the whole conductor to be code compliant???

Not just 3 stripes at installation like on size 4 and larger?

(B) Sizes 4 AWG or Larger. An insulated grounded conductor
4 AWG or larger shall be identified by one of the
following means:
(1) A continuous white outer finish.
(2) A continuous gray outer finish
(3) Three continuous white stripes along its entire length
on other than green insulation.
(*4) At the time of installation, by a distinctive white or gray
marking at its terminations. This marking shall encircle
the conductor or insulation.*


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> 200.6 Means of Identifying Grounded Conductors.
> 
> (A) Sizes 6 AWG or Smaller. An insulated grounded conductor
> of 6 AWG or smaller shall be identified by one of
> ...


 
I think you should read Chris's post again.


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## mrmike (Dec 10, 2010)

BBQ said:


> The light socket holds a fuse for a shunt trip control circuit
> 
> That is not a nail, that is a straight blade pan head sheet metal screw
> 
> ...


 

I worked industrial so we never had any crap like that shunt trip-so I never saw one like that.
It looks like a nail, but I'm sure your eyes are better than mine. Anyhow, the ground is useless under it without the paint stripped off. That was a no-no for us, as well as any green tape on ANY ungrounded voltage/current carrying conductor. 
Someone along the line must of OK'd it against the cardinal rule. I am one to go along with some change but not stuff like that--------- It can just make more confusion & unsafe..................


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

raider1 said:


> Got a code section that prohibits taping to identify an ungrounded conductor smaller than #6?
> 
> 
> 
> ...





jwjrw said:


> 200.6 Means of Identifying Grounded Conductors.
> 
> (A) Sizes 6 AWG or Smaller.


 

:blink::blink::laughing:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> :blink::blink::laughing:



You do know there is a difference between a hot and a neutral. :laughing:


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

jwjrw said:


> 200.6 Means of Identifying Grounded Conductors.
> 
> (A) Sizes 6 AWG or Smaller. An insulated grounded conductor
> of 6 AWG or smaller shall be identified by one of
> ...


Neither of those sections deals with *Ungrounded* conductors to which I was referring in my post.:thumbsup:

Chris


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

BBQ said:


> You do know there is a difference between a hot and a neutral. :laughing:


I do I do.:thumbup::laughing::laughing:

Chris


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

raider1 said:


> Neither of those sections deals with *Ungrounded* conductors to which I was referring in my post.:thumbsup:
> 
> Chris





So I missed the UN........like that would really matter in lectric work and the way lectricity works.....:whistling2:


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> :blink::blink::laughing:



Quote:
Originally Posted by raider1 View Post



Got a code section that prohibits taping to identify an ungrounded conductor smaller than #6?






Chris
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwjrw View Post
200.6 Means of Identifying Grounded Conductors.

(A) Sizes 6 AWG or Smaller.[/QUOTE]





And you were wrong here...:whistling2: Just saying....

mcclary's electrical's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: "Good Times"
Posts: 3,006

Default
Is the op written correctly? Did you mix up tables? 250.122 would give a smaller wire than 250.66. I'm not following you.
__________________
“Undermine their pompous authority, reject their moral standards, make anarchy and disorder your trademarks. Cause as much chaos and disruption as possible but don’t let them take you ALIVE.”


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

jwjrw said:


> So I missed the UN........like that would really matter in lectric work and the way lectricity works.....:whistling2:


No, but it does matter when dealing with the NEC, just saying.:thumbsup:

Chris


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

jwjrw said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by raider1 View Post
> 
> 
> ...


I was wrong where?

200.6 is dealing with *grounded* conductors not *Ungrounded* conductors.

There is no NEC section that prohibits phase taping *ungrounded* conductors smaller than #6.

Chris


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

raider1 said:


> No, but it does matter when dealing with the NEC, just saying.:thumbsup:
> 
> Chris




I looked at your post 5 times and kept saying I'm missing something but I can't figure out what it is. :no: Sometimes I'm brain dead. Or I would be if I had one.:laughing:


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by raider1 View Post
> 
> 
> ...


 



And you were wrong here...:whistling2: Just saying....

mcclary's electrical's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: "Good Times"
Posts: 3,006

Default
Is the op written correctly? Did you mix up tables? 250.122 would give a smaller wire than 250.66. I'm not following you.
__________________
“Undermine their pompous authority, reject their moral standards, make anarchy and disorder your trademarks. Cause as much chaos and disruption as possible but don’t let them take you ALIVE.”[/quote]



Thanks for pointing that out:thumbup: I don't build 3000 amp services everyday:no: So I wasn't sure untill I looked.:whistling2:


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

jwjrw said:


> I looked at your post 5 times and kept saying I'm missing something but I can't figure out what it is. :no: Sometimes I'm brain dead. Or I would be if I had one.:laughing:


Not a problem, I have brain farts all the time.:thumbsup::laughing:

Chris


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

jw, what are missing ,man?...It's pretty cut and dried....


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

NolaTigaBait said:


> jw, what are missing ,man?...It's pretty cut and dried....



I didn't really read the thread and missed the UN grounded in chris's post.
Speed reading again.:thumbsup:


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

jwjrw said:


> I didn't really read the thread and missed the UN grounded in chris's post.
> Speed reading again.:thumbsup:


Straighten up, fly right...


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

NolaTigaBait said:


> Straighten up, fly right...



I think my small brain has too many tasks to complete and is partially overloaded. Business as usual..:laughing:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Wow ........ I can't believe I read all that.


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## sparky105 (Sep 29, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Wow ........ I can't believe I read all that.


Me too because we do have color code here in the Canadas


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

raider1 said:


> I was wrong where?
> 
> 200.6 is dealing with *grounded* conductors not *Ungrounded* conductors.
> 
> ...



NOT YOU!!!!!:whistling2:
McClary was picking on me.
I was pointing out he misread the op in the gec sizing thread. :thumbsup:
Like he did for my mistake.


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## jusme123 (Dec 27, 2010)

sparky105 said:


> Me too because we do *have color code *here in the Canadas


...because it makes sense, like it or not, it makes sense to have a standard color code


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

jusme123 said:


> ...because it makes sense, like it or not, it makes sense to have a standard color code


Nope, it does not and that is why the NEC does not have one.

No one should be making any electrical decisions based on a wire color alone.


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## jusme123 (Dec 27, 2010)

BBQ said:


> Nope, it does not and that is why the *NEC does not have one.*
> 
> No one should be making any electrical decisions based on a wire color alone.


high leg 110.15 should not be there than


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

jusme123 said:


> high leg



Un huh

and grounded

and grounding

and isolated systems in hospitals

and likely others

But the NEC and other jurisdictions are moving away from, not towards standard colors.

For instance MA used to have a prescribed color code, it has been eliminated.

I think 480Sparky mentioned the NEC also used to have some color codes.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

BBQ said:


> ...........I think 480Sparky mentioned the NEC also used to have some color codes.


From 1937-1975, the NEC did.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Each year there are proposals to have color codes, they are shot down.

Here is just one for the 2011 NEC.



> *2-289 Log #3226 NEC-P02 Final Action: Reject
> (215.12, FPN )
> ______________________________________________________________
> Submitter:* Randall Opperman, Jr., O.S.C.Inc.
> ...


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## jusme123 (Dec 27, 2010)

BBQ said:


> Each year there are proposals to have color codes, they are shot down.
> 
> Here is just one for the 2011 NEC.


...and I do not agree with them or you on this issue, but by now you know that!


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## Rap2 (Dec 17, 2010)

Control Freak said:


> This guy doesn't seem to know basic industry standards such as black red blue or brown,orange, yellow and he's creating a 504 volt circuit between transformers? Friggin scary chit if you ask me.........even scarierer than the guy thats been installing transformers with out bonding the x0!
> 
> I mean I know guys might run their own circuits for like ceiling fans or a garage door opener, maybe change a receptacle but transformers??????????????? they should be hiring qualafied electricians to do that work!


I did mention black,red,blue for phase identification and that I bought brown,orange,yellow cuz it was avalible and cheap....

and whats wrong with running at the highest tap between transformers if the low side is going to be a standard like a 208 Wye?


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## Electron_Sam78 (Feb 26, 2010)

BBQ said:


> *Green as a hot from the power company was not that odd around here*


A grounded phase (such as a corner grounded delta) marked green would be a violation of section 200.6


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

Electron_Sam78 said:


> A grounded phase (such as a corner grounded delta) marked green would be a violation of section 200.6


He said power company...I dont think they follow the NEC.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

jusme123 said:


> ...and I do not agree with them or you on this issue, but by now you know that!


Why do you think it is unsafe to allow the markings to be something other than color?


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## jusme123 (Dec 27, 2010)

BBQ said:


> Why do you think it is unsafe to allow the markings to be something other than color?


15 story building, two voltage systems (120/208v and 277/480v), what is the minimum amount of colors that can be used to wire this entire building (using any identifying method acceptable)?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

jusme123 said:


> 15 story building, two voltage systems (120/208v and 277/480v), what is the minimum amount of colors that can be used to wire this entire building (using any identifying method acceptable)?



Three. .


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## vos (Apr 1, 2010)

I see one problum with color coding. What if you get a color blind electrician?  lol


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## jusme123 (Dec 27, 2010)

vos said:


> I see one problum with color coding. What if you get a color blind electrician?  lol


...get a seeing eye dog and color code train it, call him 'Nec'


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

vos said:


> I see one problum with color coding. What if you get a color blind electrician?  lol


Thats part of the hiring prosess:laughing:


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

vos said:


> I see one problum with color coding. What if you get a color blind electrician?  lol


Along these same lines, some colors from some manufactures look really similar through some arc shields and suit hood shields.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

jusme123 said:


> ...and I do not agree with them or you on this issue, but by now you know that!





BBQ said:


> Why do you think it is unsafe to allow the markings to be something other than color?





jusme123 said:


> 15 story building, two voltage systems (120/208v and 277/480v), what is the minimum amount of colors that can be used to wire this entire building (using any identifying method acceptable)?


Not really an answer to my question but I will answer yours.

3 and only 1 of them will be used for ungrounded conductors.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Why do you think it is unsafe to allow the markings to be something other than color?


I can't for the life of me see why something like that would be unsafe either.


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## jusme123 (Dec 27, 2010)

BBQ said:


> Why do you think it is unsafe to allow the markings to be something other than color?


 Bob I not going to argue the point with you, but I will say that it would be a disaster to wire a 15 story building using all black wires with markings A,B,C,D,E,F (identify phase and system) and 1,2,3,4,5(identify ckts) in every junction box (which would never get done as you know). I think it is ridiculous that the code allows *one building* to be wired black, red, blue (120/208v) and brown, orange, yellow (277/480v) and the* building directly across the street* to be wired violet, orange, black (120/208v) and brown, red, blue (277/480). There should be a standard color code for these systems IMHO.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

It's also ridiculous to allow a 15-story building to be wired in EMT and PVC, while allowing the building across the street to be wired in MC and NM.

Stupid, I tells ya. Stupid!


It's silly to allow one building to have 480/277 3-phase, yet the next one is allowed to operate on 120/240 single phase.

Stupid, I tells ya. Stupid!


How dare the owner of the 15-story building to have a fire alarm system, yet the building across the street not need one.

Stupid, I tells ya. Stupid!


Why is there fluorescent lighting in the 15-story building, yet the one across the street is allowed to use incandescent?

Stupid, I tells ya. Stupid!


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

jusme123 said:


> Bob I not going to argue the point with you, but I will say that it would be a disaster to wire a 15 story building using all black wires with markings A,B,C,D,E,F


I am not seeing the disaster, I am seeing identified conductors, the only problem is you don't personally like it.




> (identify phase and system) and 1,2,3,4,5(identify ckts) in every junction box (which would never get done as you know).



But you think if colors were used they would always be used properly.

An interesting view.



> I think it is ridiculous that the code allows *one building* to be wired black, red, blue (120/208v) and brown, orange, yellow (277/480v) and the* building directly across the street* to be wired violet, orange, black (120/208v) and brown, red, blue (277/480).



Again it is a design decision, just like the choice to use fused panel-boards over breakers.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

NolaTigaBait said:


> He said power company...I dont think they follow the NEC.


Poco's follow the NESC.


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## jusme123 (Dec 27, 2010)

BBQ said:


> *I am not seeing the disaster*, I am seeing identified conductors, the only problem is you don't personally like it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If you standardize color coding you make it safer. As for your argument about colors always being properly used, I could say that about the entire code book, just because its written does not mean it is followed


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

Wirenuting said:


> Poco's follow the NESC.


Thank you, Captain Obvious.


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## jusme123 (Dec 27, 2010)

NolaTigaBait said:


> Thank you, Captain Obvious.


\


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

vos said:


> I see one problum with color coding. What if you get a color blind electrician?  lol


It's not a funny thing to joke about, we had one that worked for my company years back before I was around. I've heard the stories, he was always screwing things up but couldn't come to admit it to anyone (extremely dangerous) and they always suspected but could never confirm their suspicions. That was until one day they set up for a wire pull with two spools of green and a spool of white, he couldn't tell black from green. Needless to say the cat was out of the bag after that one.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

thegoldenboy said:


> It's not a funny thing to joke about, we had one that worked for my company years back before I was around. I've heard the stories, he was always screwing things up but couldn't come to admit it to anyone (extremely dangerous) and they always suspected but could never confirm their suspicions. That was until one day they set up for a wire pull with two spools of green and a spool of white, he couldn't tell black from green. Needless to say the cat was out of the bag after that one.



I had a guy come to a commercial job after spending 8 years roping houses. Had the common blue/green blindness. Since he assumed any grounds would be bare, all the greens & blues were made up together. Every c-phase breaker was suspect.

And he did not know he was colorblind.


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## chuard20 (Apr 21, 2021)

Rap2 said:


> I bought a bunch of 10 gauge wire for use in 3 phase 208 branch circuits. Among the colors I have yellow orange and brown. Can I use these colors as current carrying conductors? I have looked through the NEC and can not find a reason why not. In fact I have always heard that three phase feeder circuits are identified by black, red, blue. I looked up every instance of the word blue in the NEC (pdf format) and could only find that color scheme as it pertained to Flat Cable in section 322.120. Any thoughts or help would be appreciated.


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## chuard20 (Apr 21, 2021)

Normally 3 phase is boy brown orange yellow in the sequence. L1 L2 L3 in three phase. 480 volts


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Rap2 said:


> Thanks guys for the advice so far, I will probably not chance it on such a big job, will save the cheap wire for another day when I can afford to argue.
> 
> There is no 277/480 coming into the site but it just so happens I am creating a 504 volt circuit to go between 2 transformers on a very long wire run...


If you are doing something like creating 504Volts, I would think it to be quite neighborly to use those colors.
You have the blessing.


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

Southeast Power said:


> If you are doing something like creating 504Volts, I would think it to be quite neighborly to use those colors.
> You have the blessing.


11 year old post


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

chuard20 said:


> Normally 3 phase is boy brown orange yellow in the sequence. L1 L2 L3 in three phase. 480 volts


That’s US standard for above 250 V.

The US standard for 208/120 or 230 is black red blue. The Canadian standard is the same colors but I think a different order (black blue red?). On high leg delta 230/120 Code requires orange high leg so I’ve seen brown orange yellow, black orange blue, and black red blue (violation).









Electrical Wiring Color Codes for AC & DC - NEC & IEC


NEC Wiring Color Codes for AC and DC in US & Canada. IEC Wiring Color Codes for AC & DC in UK & EU China & Russia Cable Color Codes. India, PAK, SA, IL Code




www.electricaltechnology.org


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## BillyMac59 (Sep 12, 2019)

A Canadian perspective...in the two places that I 've worked that had 600/347 and 480/277 it was imperative to keep the first Bk,R,Bl and the second Br,O,Y. Every electrician had ready access to phasing tape and every wire was taped.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

[/QUOTE]


chuard20 said:


> Normally 3 phase is boy brown orange yellow in the sequence. L1 L2 L3 in three phase. 480 volts



Normally, Why BOY because you do and it is normal in your area of work. Here we see BOY, BYO, and have seen YBO, keep it A-B-C rotation and the same coding throughout the facility and I am happy.


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## ampone (Apr 28, 2021)

Bkessler said:


> Yeah, if you have to "fly it in" you can probably get away with it. Is there an 277/480 volt in the building or on the property? If not your probably okay. Just don't make a habit of it.


Do not use brown orange yellow for three phase 120/208 three phase colors period.


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## ampone (Apr 28, 2021)

electricalperson said:


> colors of wires are not a code requirement. you can use purple wire if you want. you just need to make sure that the colors are labeled for the system. i dont have my code book handy so i dont know the article. just make sure there isnt already a 277/480v system using the same colors in the building. you can also buy colored tape if you want


Look up the code dude. White is a code or gray is a code requirement for the neutral so is green for ground or green with a yellow tracer. Learn the code. An I would never use Brown Orange Yellow for anything But 277/480 volt colors.


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