# To join the union or not



## HAL9000 (Feb 28, 2016)

New to the site, journeyman electrician here working for a company in vancouver,bc, I recently got a letter from the IBEW 213 stating that my application had been approved, I am just wondering what it is like working for the union? How much you can expect to make after dues and benefits and all that stuff is paid? Also if people think it is worth it to work for the union vs. non union job? If this was back when I was an apprentice I would have gone union no question. The company I work for now is a smaller company, great owners, great guys I work with and they have allowed me as a newer journeyman to learn things I didnt know before in a great environment. But as a non union company I make about $8/hr less than I would in the union and the benefits are not as good as they would be in the union


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

http://www.electriciantalk.com/f26/should-i-go-union-145785/


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

First off, welcome aboard. Secondly Union is a career where as non Union can just be a job. Unions far exceed training and education in electrical work. Union compensation packages are always better with extremely few exceptions.


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

I think you answered your own question. "$8/hr."? Seriously? Edit: I misread the $8 LESS/hr. Do you get "regular" pay raises?


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## HAL9000 (Feb 28, 2016)

No I dont get regular pay raises


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## HAL9000 (Feb 28, 2016)

also unsure of how the union works, other unions I have been on ( they were not IBEW and not electrical related at all) you go on a callboard and wait to be called and work your way up, we would go weeks without work sometimes, so if I join the union and I am placed on the callboard I would still have to keep my current job until union work picks up


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

joebanana said:


> I think you answered your own question. "$8/hr."? Seriously? Edit: I misread the $8 LESS/hr. Do you get "regular" pay raises?



$8 an hour sounds like a $16k raise in a standard 2000 hr year.


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## HAL9000 (Feb 28, 2016)

but how much of that $8/hr do I get to keep, some of that goes to dues and benefits


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## HAL9000 (Feb 28, 2016)

The way it has always been it explained to us non-union guys is that the difference in pay if offset by dues and other union related costs


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

HAL9000 said:


> but how much of that $8/hr do I get to keep, some of that goes to dues and benefits




You would have to ask the hall for a break down on the compensation package to answer that. If you lost 50% it's still a plus. If you are ambitious and can get along with others easily you will never go wrong with the Union. If you aren't an easily morning person or like to smoke pot, have an issue taking orders and school isn't really your thing than the Union is the wrong place for you. If you'd like a chance at a lifetime career with good pay and benefits (including retirement) go union.


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## HAL9000 (Feb 28, 2016)

That is good to know, I am a really hard worker and would love to add to my experience, I get along very well with others, I was worried that I would have a hard time advancing in the union because everything is based off seniority


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## HAL9000 (Feb 28, 2016)

I guess the compensation package at every hall would be different


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

HAL9000 said:


> That is good to know, I am a really hard worker and would love to add to my experience, I get along very well with others, I was worried that I would have a hard time advancing in the union because everything is based off seniority




The union provides the basic guidelines the company you work for has to go by. I can't remember the last company I worked for where I wasn't paid over scale and had added benefits or was treated badly. I started with a get it done can do attitude and accepted any training or challenges that were offered to me. Many companies offer additional vacation time, bonuses, per diem pay for going to trade classes, etc. It's what you make of it by the effort you put in. I was always the guy that did trouble / service work and was sent to the bosses house or to vip clients.


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## kg7879 (Feb 3, 2014)

I have never worked for a contractor that paid you over scale or added any other benefits except for what is stated in the agreement.

As far as the money goes, you essentially get back the monthly dues (more than you put in) back as an international pension when you retire.

The local itself probably has working assessments and the amount depends on the local. Ours is 5 percent of your gross which is one of the higher ones but even after that is deducted I am still making about 4 more dollars an hour than my non union counterpart. Plus we do not pay any premiums for our healthcare.

The downside to the union is you will probably get laid off at some point and have some down time. Some guys can't stand that. So it is what it is.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

kg7879 said:


> I have never worked for a contractor that paid you over scale or added any other benefits except for what is stated in the agreement.
> 
> As far as the money goes, you essentially get back the monthly dues (more than you put in) back as an international pension when you retire.
> 
> ...



Maybe getting pay and benefits over scale is a NYC-NJ thing but if you want the best guys that have been with other contractors for years you need to sweeten the pot. I always had a truck to take home as well.


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## kg7879 (Feb 3, 2014)

Mech Diver said:


> Maybe getting pay and benefits over scale is a NYC-NJ thing but if you want the best guys that have been with other contractors for years you need to sweeten the pot. I always had a truck to take home as well.


That is interesting. In this local there are some jobs contractors can not fill for months and they will not offer anything extra. In fact when some one does take the call, the contractor still acts all high and mighty.

Non union contractors are the same way as well. They can not fill their positions but they refuse to bump up wages or bennies at all.


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## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

The OP mentioned seniority. There is no seniority in construction that I am aware of. Maybe at a utility or some in house Union, but not in construction. 

Most big jobs will hire, and layoff in the order they were hired. It is a fair and dignified way to go if everyone is working. But that is not in our locals agreement. If you have a slug you are not obligation to keep them.


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## Ninjanick (Feb 23, 2016)

360max said:


> http://www.electriciantalk.com/f26/should-i-go-union-145785/


Haha this is me . The guys on this fourm changed my mind, I'm going Union working as a cw. Take the job , one guy said Somthing that made me think.. Nonunion=Job ... Union=career


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## David C (May 19, 2015)

cabletie said:


> The OP mentioned seniority. There is no seniority in construction that I am aware of. Maybe at a utility or some in house Union, but not in construction.
> 
> Most big jobs will hire, and layoff in the order they were hired. It is a fair and dignified way to go if everyone is working. But that is not in our locals agreement. If you have a slug you are not obligation to keep them.


Here in Quebec province, it's actually the opposite. You must affiliate to an union in order to work in the construction industry and seniority is very important when it comes to choosing skilled employees at equal abilities. Let's say a company must lay off one journeyman and one apprentice due to lack of available labor. Unless there's one guy who's been late a few times in the last month or been causing trouble on the jobsite (either altercations or safety issues), the boss can't lay off the journeyman that's been there for longer than the one that just got in 3 months ago, even if the new guy really is more promising than the other jman. Same goes for the apprentices. It's also to help protect workers who don't "click" with the boss or other workers on the social level or personal taste (like hunting or fishing, drinks, hobbies, sexual orientation, etc). The union here is like the mafia, except it's godfathered by the government. It's a big family and there's strict rules you must abide and it has good and less good sides, but overall it's thanks to the unions fighting for the workers that we now have Medicare, life insurance, job protection, paid breaks, half and double wage if more than 8 hours a day and 40 hours a week, 13% bonus on top of our gross pay for 4 weeks of vacation per year (2/xmas, 2/summer), paid training and advanced class, retirement plan, government pension, and so many other benefits and protection for us and our immediate family. Oh, and regulated wage not based on performance, but skilled trades. I make the same as the other apprentice, no matter if I'm a faster or slower worker than him, no matter if I'm male or female, no matter if I'm gay, black, Mexican, Asian, American, etc, no matter if I have 6 or no university degree, no matter if I speak only one language, etc.

The only things they can legally get you with is being late, being a safety hazard to others, or doing/being under the influence of drugs/alcohols on the job. You could be an asshole and jerk to everyone, they will be in deep legal **** of they slack you just because they don't like your personality. But you'll also not last long either, your name will get on the black list of the "mafia" and when they call for hire, you'll be the last one on the phone list.

Myself I'm thinking of moving from Montreal to Vancouver, so I'm gathering info on how things work over there, so I don't loose more to change than I could afford.


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## Ninjanick (Feb 23, 2016)

Does anyone know if I go Union .. And let's say I wanted to quit and go back non Union ... Could I ? I was told once I go Union it's hard to go back non Union company


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Ninjanick said:


> Does anyone know if I go Union .. And let's say I wanted to quit and go back non Union ... Could I ? I was told once I go Union it's hard to go back non Union company



This is America bro you can quit and do what you like there is no restrictions.


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## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

Ninjanick said:


> Does anyone know if I go Union .. And let's say I wanted to quit and go back non Union ... Could I ? I was told once I go Union it's hard to go back non Union company


The only thing I can think of is paying back apprenticeship. Check with your local. They may make you sign an agreement that you pay them back a certain amount of money if you leave after apprenticeship. Mine does. Getting kicked out shouldn't cost you a dime! Since you are looking at the CE/CW program I don't know what they will make you sign.

Normally you only pay for books (now laptops), not the class time or instructor. In our package, besides the hourly wage, there are other benefits that the contractors pay for. Normally you only hear about pension and annuity. There is a small percentage that goes into the local JATC fund. By working X amount of years as a journeyman your school is paid for. If you leave before that, you are responsible to pay that back.

That fund also pays for Journeyman classes need for continuing education with the hall. When I do the state mandated code up-date course for my license, it was paid for out of this fund. The state mandated code up-date and continuing education for your license also counts with the Hall. Now we pay a small amount for the courses. The code update is still free in the other NJ locals.

Other than that I can't think of any other reason why you could not go back.


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

Mech Diver said:


> First off, welcome aboard. Secondly Union is a career where as non Union can just be a job. Unions far exceed training and education in electrical work. Union compensation packages are always better with extremely few exceptions.


I am a union contractor and I have to say that statement SCREAM's BS.

There are locals where men are off more than they work I have worked with FLEAS that hardly ever work in their hometown, traveling 365 days a year. I also work with open shops with men making good wages and benefits.

My response to the OP would be if your local has full employment regularly that by far union is the way to go. But if you are going to be a bench warmer and that thought bothers you stay put.

BUT you may make the same wages and have to work less hours a year in the union.

Many things to look at before jumping ship.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Bad Electrician said:


> I am a union contractor and I have to say that statement SCREAM's BS.
> 
> There are locals where men are off more than they work I have worked with FLEAS that hardly ever work in their hometown, traveling 365 days a year. I also work with open shops with men making good wages and benefits.
> 
> ...



That is how it was in the areas I lived and worked in. If it is different where you are I wouldn't have that knowledge. I had steady work from good contractors the entire time I was Union.


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## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

kg7879 said:


> That is interesting. In this local there are some jobs contractors can not fill for months and they will not offer anything extra. In fact when some one does take the call, the contractor still acts all high and mighty.
> 
> Non union contractors are the same way as well. They can not fill their positions but they refuse to bump up wages or bennies at all.



I remember before the bottom dropped out. The north Jersey contractors were paying double time for straight time to get their projects done. you had to work something like seven tens to get it. I was working a small part of this big project for my boss, and the main EC was losing and hiring guys every week. The guys he was getting were all burned out with the overtime and just wanted 40. the guy leaving had dollar signs in their eyes.

My employer usually caries 25 guys year round. I have seen them go up to just over 100 when they are busy. most of the regulars get 12 percent over rate (Foreman rate) year round, weather they have the manpower under them or not. When they were slow it was not uncommon to see four journeyman on the job with three of them getting foreman's rate. Things have changed with the out going recession. Now you see the foreman getting bumped back down more often.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

cabletie said:


> I remember before the bottom dropped out. The north Jersey contractors were paying double time for straight time to get their projects done. you had to work something like seven tens to get it. I was working a small part of this big project for my boss, and the main EC was losing and hiring guys every week. The guys he was getting were all burned out with the overtime and just wanted 40. the guy leaving had dollar signs in their eyes.
> 
> My employer usually caries 25 guys year round. I have seen them go up to just over 100 when they are busy. most of the regulars get 12 percent over rate (Foreman rate) year round, weather they have the manpower under them or not. When they were slow it was not uncommon to see four journeyman on the job with three of them getting foreman's rate. Things have changed with the out going recession. Now you see the foreman getting bumped back down more often.



I'm glad to see another NJ guy that knows what I was talking about. I moved south out of the area going on 6 years ago.


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## danhasenauer (Jun 10, 2009)

HAL9000 said:


> The way it has always been it explained to us non-union guys is that the difference in pay if offset by dues and other union related costs


Of course that's the way it is explained to non-union guys by their non-union employers. My gross for 40 hours is 1350. My weekly dues (working assessment) are 74.25. I have no other "Union related costs". My net pay is a little under $1k a week. Another 700+ a week is paid by my employer into my benefits. Your employer's bid rate is probably pretty close to what a Union contractor bids at (he's not stupid), but with lower wages and benefits. Where do you think all the money retained with underpaid wage rates and slim benefits goes at the end of the day? (Your boss would rather keep it than give you a package worth over 2k a week.)


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

Mech Diver said:


> That is how it was in the areas I lived and worked in. If it is different where you are I wouldn't have that knowledge. I had steady work from good contractors the entire time I was Union.


I never said any different, but what you said was insulting to hard working open shop men and women. Just a demeaning statement in my opinion. 

And perputates the opinon open shop men have of union workers as narrow minded, self serving boobs.


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## danhasenauer (Jun 10, 2009)

"the opinon open shop men have of union workers as narrow minded, self serving boobs."

so, if I put* my *Family ahead of the owner's 4 cars, 2 boats, 1 airplane, mansion, Summer home on the lake, and I don't want to eat cat food when I'm physically broken down and retired, I'm narrow minded and self-serving?


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## danhasenauer (Jun 10, 2009)

bad electrician said:


> *perpetuates* the *opinion*


*fify*


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

danhasenauer said:


> "the opinon open shop men have of union workers as narrow minded, self serving boobs."
> 
> so, if I put* my *Family ahead of the owner's 4 cars, 2 boats, 1 airplane, mansion, Summer home on the lake, and I don't want to eat cat food when I'm physically broken down and retired, I'm narrow minded and self-serving?


No, not at all but if you denigate open shop workers in a post THEN you may be seen as a boob. You don't see the difference?

As for the owners having multiple cars and boats and a fine house, if he did not you might not have a job.

I do not know any open shop men eating cat food. 

Look I am for union workers but I think it is wrong to disregard open shop workers as less then electricians or as hard workers. Not all open shop men are slaves of the man, just as all union workers are not fat lazy slobs.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Bad Electrician said:


> I never said any different, but what you said was insulting to hard working open shop men and women. Just a demeaning statement in my opinion.
> 
> And perputates the opinon open shop men have of union workers as narrow minded, self serving boobs.



Do open shops have organized schools that I am unaware of? What is the percentage if open shops that have retirement plans completely paid for by the contractor? What is the percentage that offer completely paid health insurance as opposed to those that don't? All IBEW locals offer these things.


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## kg7879 (Feb 3, 2014)

Mech Diver said:


> Do open shops have organized schools that I am unaware of? What is the percentage if open shops that have retirement plans completely paid for by the contractor? What is the percentage that offer completely paid health insurance as opposed to those that don't? All IBEW locals offer these things.


Around here all non union guys to the community college for night school and most of the good non union shops will pay for their apprentices school. We have to pay 500 a semester plus books, which is not bad but I do not know of one union apprentice who has ever had their schooling paid for.

As far as retirement and health insurance I would have to agree with you. This is where the union shines but if your in a six to eight month working local like mine then I do not know if the retirement is really going to be that great for you.


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

Mech Diver said:


> Do open shops have organized schools that I am unaware of? What is the percentage if open shops that have retirement plans completely paid for by the contractor? What is the percentage that offer completely paid health insurance as opposed to those that don't? All IBEW locals offer these things.


Look while union benefits are great and I would tell anyone if they can get in the local go for it.

But 
1. Many CAN'T GET IN, as there are limits on how many are going to be allowed to work in any area.
2. Some men feel the union is a bad deal, for a variety of reasons. I believe mostly they do not understand what the union can offer. Myself I have worked both and WORK WISE I saw no difference, pay was close to the same, retirement and other bennies were much better.
3. I feel all workers open shop and union should respect each other.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

kg7879 said:


> Around here all non union guys to the community college for night school and most of the good non union shops will pay for their apprentices school. We have to pay 500 a semester plus books, which is not bad but I do not know of one union apprentice who has ever had their schooling paid for.
> 
> As far as retirement and health insurance I would have to agree with you. This is where the union shines but if your in a six to eight month working local like mine then I do not know if the retirement is really going to be that great for you.



So if you are a non union apprentice you work a 40 hour week and go to night school for several years on your dime ? That sounds like a lot of time out of the house uncompensated to me.

Seems to me union apprentices have a work and study program go on at the same time. They go to classes at the hall or the locals training school during working hours on a rotating basis. 

I will admit that I never went through Union apprenticeship myself. I was working for a company that was unionized after I had been there working as a journeyman for some time and took the Union test for journeyman and passed successfully. I did however attend many classes at the training center and others that my employer paid for fully as well as travel expenses.


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## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

All of the NJ IBEW locals go at night. Most of the other trades go during the day.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

cabletie said:


> All of the NJ IBEW locals go at night. Most of the other trades go during the day.



Thanks I didn't think that was the norm.


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

Mech Diver said:


> So if you are a non union apprentice you work a 40 hour week and go to night school for several years on your dime ? That sounds like a lot of time out of the house uncompensated to me.


 Our local does some day years, some night years. Most professions require additional schooling, I did not get where I am today because I worried about non-compensated school hours. 

My education, my mind, my time, I take it where ever I go. I never gave a thought to getting paid and in many cases paid for the classes myself, while in the union and open shop. Many Brothers called me a chump, a fool and wasting my time. Now they are still running EMT while I running a company, and many of those that laughed at me have asked me for a job when they see me out estimating work or consulting at firms they work at. 

I also pay for my employees to take additional training some during work hours some on Saturday or at night (depending on when the class is offered). I figure if a man does not see education as a way to better himself maybe I'd be better off without him.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Bad Electrician said:


> Our local does some day years, some night years. Most professions require additional schooling, I did not get where I am today because I worried about non-compensated school hours.
> 
> My education, my mind, my time, I take it where ever I go. I never gave a thought to getting paid and in many cases paid for the classes myself, while in the union and open shop. Many Brothers called me a chump, a fool and wasting my time. Now they are still running EMT while I running a company, and many of those that laughed at me have asked me for a job when they see me out estimating work or consulting at firms they work at.
> 
> I also pay for my employees to take additional training some during work hours some on Saturday or at night (depending on when the class is offered). I figure if a man does not see education as a way to better himself maybe I'd be better off without him.



I agree with you but it depends on the situation a guy is in. I myself opted for an education, primarily night classes and then online when they became popular. I have been retired since 2009 and have been looking for an online class that interests me. I don't believe in having a stagnant mind. I am also a reader something that many people overlook as a good use of spare time.


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

Mech Diver said:


> I agree with you but it depends on the situation a guy is in. I myself opted for an education, primarily night classes and then online when they became popular. I have been retired since 2009 and have been looking for an online class that interests me. I don't believe in having a stagnant mind. I am also a reader something that many people overlook as a good use of spare time.


I started reading installation manuals and something many never bothered with.

I often think electricians do not read.

YOU ARE RETIRED? Full time retired?


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Bad Electrician said:


> I started reading installation manuals and something many never bothered with.
> 
> I often think electricians do not read.
> 
> YOU ARE RETIRED? Full time retired?



Yes fully retired.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

HAL9000 said:


> but how much of that $8/hr do I get to keep, some of that goes to dues and benefits


None of it goes to benefits. Your pensions and fringes are in addition to the stated wage rate. 

Only nonunion contractors sell you things and then classify them as company benefits.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

HAL9000 said:


> The way it has always been it explained to us non-union guys is that the difference in pay if offset by dues and other union related costs


That's exactly what nonunion contractors want you to believe. Take the wage difference of 8.00 an hour. On an 8 hour day, that's 64.00 a day, or 320.00 a week, Do you really think union dues are $16,640.00 a year?

Call your union hall and find out for yourself what working dues are, and stop listening to people who do not have your best interests at heart.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

HAL9000 said:


> That is good to know, I am a really hard worker and would love to add to my experience, I get along very well with others, I was worried that I would have a hard time advancing in the union because everything is based off seniority


No IBEW construction local is seniority based. STOP listening to people who do not have your best interests at heart.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Ninjanick said:


> Does anyone know if I go Union .. And let's say I wanted to quit and go back non Union ... Could I ? I was told once I go Union it's hard to go back non Union company


No, if you join then quit it's like trying to leave the Hell's Angels. We send the goon squad to hunt you and everyone you love down and then we... no wait, just kidding, that's what you boss told you right?

Going nonunion once you've been an IBEW member is like staying at a fleabag motel after you've gotten used to staying at 5 star hotels. Still, some people find their IBEW experience less than stellar and end up going back nonunion but that's an exception, not the rule. 

Note: It's true there are some open shops out there where this is not the case. The question is, are you going to get a job with one of them? In the IBEW you know what the rules and the standards are, if you go from one open shop to another you have to learn that on the job as you go. 

Our union has organized shops, and sometimes a few organized hands leave the union and go back to working nonunion. My take on their rationale is (and, this is my opinion as I see it, nothing more so take it for what it's worth) that these guys were used to being the top-paid top dog in their shop and their egos were stroked by the fact that they were better than everyone else, and compensated the best, and could get away with treating everyone else like dog do-do. 

They couldn't cope with the idea that everyone gets paid the same, they can't boss every inferiorly-paid hand around, or that a project is a team effort and everyone pitches in the best they can based on their particular strengths and abilities, or that we all share in developing marketable and value- added skills so that no one person is the "only guy" who can get something done or work on a particular system. 

Your life changes for the better when you can walk into work everyday and priority #1 is not to outshine as many other co-workers as possible in order to enjoy continued employment.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

kg7879 said:


> Around here all non union guys to the community college for night school and most of the good non union shops will pay for their apprentices school. We have to pay 500 a semester plus books, which is not bad but I do not know of one union apprentice who has ever had their schooling paid for.


I never heard of an IBEW apprentice paying for his/her own schooling.


> As far as retirement and health insurance I would have to agree with you. This is where the union shines but if your in a six to eight month working local like mine then I do not know if the retirement is really going to be that great for you.


Once the minimum number of working hours is achieved, you get a pension credit for the year. Even in a high-employment local some members might not get a pension credit for having too few hours - I had a year like that when I was on compensation for quite a while. It still beats no pension at all.


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## Ninjanick (Feb 23, 2016)

I got sworn in today actually. Overwhelming .. A lot of info to take in lol. Other than that it feels kinda good. I'm just going to let it all sink in


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