# Water pipe ground



## RIVETER

I have talked about this before. I am not in favor of using the water pipe as a grounding electrode. Am I alone in this thinking?


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## Dennis Alwon

RIVETER said:


> I have talked about this before. I am not in favor of using the water pipe as a grounding electrode. Am I alone in this thinking?


 
You're alone in my eyes anyway. I have no problem with it.


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## RIVETER

Dennis Alwon said:


> You're alone in my eyes anyway. I have no problem with it.


I'll ask the obvious...why do you use the water pipe as a ground rod? And are you aware of the downsides of using it?


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## electricmanscott

RIVETER said:


> I'll ask the obvious...why do you use the water pipe as a ground rod? And are you aware of the downsides of using it?


Maybe you can tell us why you don't think it's a good idea.


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## RIVETER

electricmanscott said:


> Maybe you can tell us why you don't think it's a good idea.


There are different schools of thought. In earlier days the water pipe system provided the best, as far as most people knew, way to earth ground. The water pipe system is not as efficient as it used to be. When a lightning strike or other hi voltage occurrence happens it needs to be able to satisfy itself as quickly as possible. A GOOD grounding system is needed and the water pipe can cause a myriad of other problems.


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## BuzzKill

we use it because maybe it is tied into every other GE in our neighborhood/city, etc.: all that buried pipe, miles of it, as a GE. Can't beat it.


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## BuzzKill

RIVETER said:


> There are different schools of thought. In earlier days the water pipe system provided the best, as far as most people knew, way to earth ground. The water pipe system is not as efficient as it used to be. When a lightning strike or other hi voltage occurrence happens it needs to be able to satisfy itself as quickly as possible. A GOOD grounding system is needed and the water pipe can cause a myriad of other problems.


as long as the N and G's are seperated well, there shouldn't be any problems, but with lightning, anything goes.


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## 480sparky

RIVETER said:


> There are different schools of thought. In earlier days the water pipe system provided the best, as far as most people knew, way to earth ground. The water pipe system is not as efficient as it used to be....


Maybe because they're plastic now?



RIVETER said:


> ....When a lightning strike or other hi voltage occurrence happens it needs to be able to satisfy itself as quickly as possible....


I try to satisfy myself quickly as well! :laughing:



RIVETER said:


> ....A GOOD grounding system is needed and the water pipe can cause a myriad of other problems.


I can hear Chip and Dale now......... 










*"Do tell!"*​


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## RIVETER

BuzzKill said:


> we use it because maybe it is tied into every other GE in our neighborhood/city, etc.: all that buried pipe, miles of it, as a GE. Can't beat it.


That is kind of my point. Being tied to the Grounding Electrodes in the neighborhood IS part of the problem that I see.


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## BuzzKill

480sparky said:


> I try to satisfy myself quickly as well! :laughing:


I bet the women in your life just love you for that.


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## BuzzKill

RIVETER said:


> That is kind of my point. Being tied to the Grounding Electrodes in the neighborhood IS part of the problem that I see.


what's the problem, Willis?


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## 480sparky

BuzzKill said:


> I bet the women in your life just love you for that.


Slam, bam, 'Thank ya, ma'am'!:whistling2:


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## B4T

BuzzKill said:


> as long as the N and G's are seperated well, there shouldn't be any problems, but with lightning, anything goes.


They are always bonded together st main service unless it is a sub-panel :blink:


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## BuzzKill

Black4Truck said:


> They are always bonded together st main service unless it is a sub-panel :blink:


No sh*t Sherlock. In the event of a double tap somewhere, you could get feedback.


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## B4T

BuzzKill said:


> No sh*t Sherlock. In the event of a double tap somewhere, you could get feedback.


You didn't say that before.. :no:


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## RIVETER

BuzzKill said:


> what's the problem, Willis?


It is open for discussion, I guess, but I believe that the water pipe system, when used as a grounding electrode, is, at least partially, responsible for the stray voltages that are being reported.


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## BuzzKill

Black4Truck said:


> You didn't say that before.. :no:


I thought that was self explanatory.


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## BuzzKill

RIVETER said:


> It is open for discussion, I guess, but I believe that the water pipe system, when used as a grounding electrode, is, at least partially, responsible for the stray voltages that are being reported.


maybe in Iraq, done by hacks...I posted a thread thursday night about very low voltage tested in modern swimming pools, and you won't find too many other things grounded as well as a pool.


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## Bob Badger

RIVETER said:


> It is open for discussion, I guess, but I believe that the water pipe system, when used as a grounding electrode, is, at least partially, responsible for the stray voltages that are being reported.



It is not the water pipe or any single electrode that causes the stray currents, it is the fact the entire distribution system uses a multi-grounded neutral.


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## RIVETER

BuzzKill said:


> maybe in Iraq, done by hacks...I posted a thread thursday night about very low voltage tested in modern swimming pools, and you won't find too many other things grounded as well as a pool.


As they should be but I don't see the correlation to what I was talking about.


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## BuzzKill

Bob Badger said:


> It is not the water pipe or any single electrode that causes the stray currents, it is the fact the entire distribution system uses a multi-grounded neutral.


...per transformer or all the way back to the substation? It stops somewhere, usually at the local xfmr at the nearest pole of the the strike.


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## Bob Badger

BuzzKill said:


> ...per transformer or all the way back to the substation? It stops somewhere, usually at the local xfmr at the nearest pole of the the strike.


The MGN (multi-grounded neutral) is grounded at every service and transformer.

That causes stray currents just like bonding the neutral in multiple locations would inside a building


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## RIVETER

Bob Badger said:


> It is not the water pipe or any single electrode that causes the stray currents, it is the fact the entire distribution system uses a multi-grounded neutral.


Are you telling me something that I know? Good catch.:thumbsup:


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## RIVETER

BuzzKill said:


> ...per transformer or all the way back to the substation? It stops somewhere, usually at the local xfmr at the nearest pole of the the strike.


Possibly. However, the main problem that I see has not a thing to do do with a lightning strike.


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## BuzzKill

ok, whut chu talkin bout Willis?


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## BuzzKill

Bob Badger said:


> The MGN (multi-grounded neutral) is grounded at every service and transformer.
> 
> That causes stray currents just like bonding the neutral in multiple locations would inside a building


Explain further. In detail.


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## RIVETER

BuzzKill said:


> Explain further. In detail.


I can touch on that, if you don't mind. It is the assumption, or rather the "ingrained in us" law that current will seek the least path of resistance. All current will go through the load and then return to it's source. If there is a loose connection it will still attempt to do so...through whatever means it can.


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## Bob Badger

Too buzzed for that, long island ice teas.:jester:


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## RIVETER

Bob Badger said:


> Too buzzed for that, long island ice teas.:jester:


 Sounds good to me.


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## BuzzKill

Bob Badger said:


> Too buzzed for that, long island ice teas.:jester:


that's funny as hell!
you are on the web at a bar or are you at home?


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## B4T

Bob Badger said:


> Too buzzed for that, long island ice teas.:jester:


 
NOW hit the thanks button Bob :thumbup:


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## Bob Badger

BuzzKill said:


> that's funny as hell!
> you are on the web at a bar or are you at home?


Just hanging at home.


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## Bob Badger

Black4Truck said:


> NOW hit the thanks button Bob :thumbup:


I am looking for the NFW button cant seem to find it.:laughing:


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## B4T

Bob Badger said:


> I am looking for the NFW button cant seem to find it.:laughing:


It is located next to the STFU button 

TOOL will draw you a diagram


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## RIVETER

This is fun...But how about back to the original post?


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## robnj772

RIVETER said:


> This is fun...But how about back to the original post?


 
Just how many residential services have you done?


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## Magnettica

Just from noticing the electrical system in my neighborhood and some 800 page POCO book I have, each transformer is grounded by way of a ground rod. Each transformer has one and I assume they're bonded to the grounded neutral in the can. This helps facilitate OCPD's on the POCO side. I think. :laughing:


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## RIVETER

robnj772 said:


> Just how many residential services have you done?


A lot...Why do you ask?


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## BuzzKill

Magnettica said:


> Just from noticing the electrical system in my neighborhood and some 800 page POCO book I have, each transformer is grounded by way of a ground rod. Each transformer has one and I assume they're bonded to the grounded neutral in the can. This helps facilitate OCPD's on the POCO side. I think. :laughing:


lightning only, they also have a the grounded N running with the pole


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## BuzzKill

RIVETER said:


> A lot...Why do you ask?


I think he thinks you know jack.


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## Bkessler

One reason I think riveter is on to something is I always see broken loose or unhooked connections when they are on the exterior. Since there are a lot plastic pipe remodels, I bet half the plumbing inspectors are to dumb to require proper ground once the original GEC has been disturbed. Plus in CA I can spend 5 hours changing a panel, and it takes me another 4 just to run the GEC to the front of the house. f-ng slabs. 

Houses without basements suck balls.


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## BuzzKill

Bkessler said:


> One reason I think riveter is on to something is I always see broken loose or unhooked connections when they are on the exterior. Since there are a lot plastic pipe remodels, I bet half the plumbing inspectors are to dumb to require proper ground once the original GEC has been disturbed. Plus in CA I can spend 5 hours changing a panel, and it takes me another 4 just to run the GEC to the front of the house. f-ng slabs.
> 
> Houses without basements suck balls.


I've read about voltage returns on grounds from the house next door, through the water bond, but that has to be absolutely rare., Like I said, all tht copper in earth, tied together makes a great EC.


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## Bkessler

I agree and am way to much of an amature to have any knowledge. I am just saying that the houses are getting cut off from the city plumbing grid when they go to plastic leaving them less protected. Are plumbing inspectors requiring homes to be grounded after a plastic system installed. I have seen water clamps connected to PVC before, I had a pic but I can't find it.


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## RIVETER

BuzzKill said:


> I think he thinks you know jack.


He DOTH misunderstand.


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## RIVETER

BuzzKill said:


> I've read about voltage returns on grounds from the house next door, through the water bond, but that has to be absolutely rare., Like I said, all tht copper in earth, tied together makes a great EC.


You have said it all. That is what I am getting at. Everyone thinks about the GEC as being a way of taking a lightning strike to earth. There is so much more to it during a normal conductive day.


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## BuzzKill

you'd love my ConEd teacher (NOT)...dry as a bone, doesn't want to talk theory or anything..he'll say "I'm not an engineer" or "I don't want to second guess that particular inspector"....dude is boring as hell.


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## RIVETER

BuzzKill said:


> you'd love my ConEd teacher (NOT)...dry as a bone, doesn't want to talk theory or anything..he'll say "I'm not an engineer" or "I don't want to second guess that particular inspector"....dude is boring as hell.


I'll tackle anyone...just ask a good question as long as it does not involve nuclear science...I have an agreement with NASA>


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## RIVETER

There has got to be someone out there who is in agreement with me that the water pipe should not be incorporated into the Grounding system. Where are you?


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## BuzzKill

well all my comments fall on deaf ears with this guy. The last guy teaching art 250 was absolutely nuts: he lived and breathed code, his BP was 120 all class long.


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## RIVETER

BuzzKill said:


> well all my comments fall on deaf ears with this guy. The last guy teaching art 250 was absolutely nuts: he lived and breathed code, his BP was 120 all class long.


What are your comments?


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## BuzzKill

RIVETER said:


> There has got to be someone out there who is in agreement with me that the water pipe should not be incorporated into the Grounding system. Where are you?


(chirp chirp chirp)
Zog and BrianJohn might have something to say, if they deem us worthy, but I'd suggest study material through journal/utility research.


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## RIVETER

BuzzKill said:


> (chirp chirp chirp)
> Zog and BrianJohn might have something to say, if they deem us worthy, but I'd suggest study material through journal/utility research.


So you agree with me.


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## BuzzKill

RIVETER said:


> What are your comments?


just off the wall stuff, things we talk about here...grounding/earthing theory, lighting/surge stuff.


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## BuzzKill

RIVETER said:


> So you agree with me.


.............about what?


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## RIVETER

BuzzKill said:


> just off the wall stuff, things we talk about here...grounding/earthing theory, lighting/surge stuff.


I enjoy most of your posts, but sometimes you have to take a stance...or at least just say you don't know.


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## BuzzKill

RIVETER said:


> So you agree with me.


zog and brian might have something to say, but i doubt they would agree with you


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## BuzzKill

RIVETER said:


> I enjoy most of your posts, but sometimes you have to take a stance...or at least just say you don't know.


well my stance is I don't know


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## RIVETER

BuzzKill said:


> zog and brian might have something to say, but i doubt they would agree with you


That is not very likely. They are both knowledgeable but I know when I am right.


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## BuzzKill

RIVETER said:


> That is not very likely. They are both knowledgeable but I know when I am right.


disagree, you are talking theory here, with few studies to back up your assertions.


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## RIVETER

BuzzKill said:


> disagree, you are talking theory here, with few studies to back up your assertions.


No, that is not true. In my research I have found that I am correct and it haunts me that I was not the first to think of it.


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## 480sparky

RIVETER said:


> No, that is not true. In my research I have found that I am correct and it haunts me that I was not the first to think of it.


So how about letting the rest of us numbnuts in on it?


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## RIVETER

480sparky said:


> So how about letting the rest of us numbnuts in on it?


You guys are not numbutts as far as I am concerned. I respect everyone on this forum.


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## 480sparky

RIVETER said:


> You guys are not numbutts as far as I am concerned. I respect everyone on this forum.



OK, so how about letting the rest of us in on it?


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## RIVETER

480sparky said:


> OK, so how about letting the rest of us in on it?


Well, if we are still talking about using the water pipe as a grounding electrode..here goes. To me it makes no sense to drag a piece of copper wire through the basement to a water pipe at the other end of the basement for the expressed purpose of mitigating a lightning strike. It seems stupid to me. That is one reason. Another reason would be the possible occurrence of a loose connection of a neutral.


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## 480sparky

RIVETER said:


> Well, if we are still talking about using the water pipe as a grounding electrode..here goes. To me it makes no sense to drag a piece of copper wire through the basement to a water pipe at the other end of the basement for the expressed purpose of mitigating a lightning strike. It seems stupid to me. That is one reason. Another reason would be the possible occurrence of a loose connection of a neutral.


OK, but how about offering up some of that research you mentioned?

And what does that have to do with loose neutral?


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## Bkessler

RIVETER said:


> Well, if we are still talking about using the water pipe as a grounding electrode..here goes. To me it makes no sense to drag a piece of copper wire through the basement to a water pipe at the other end of the basement for the expressed purpose of mitigating a lightning strike. It seems stupid to me. That is one reason. Another reason would be the possible occurrence of a loose connection of a neutral.


I wish I had a basement, I always have a panel on the back of the house with the water service in the front, on a slap.


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## McClary’s Electrical

Bkessler said:


> I wish I had a basement, I always have a panel on the back of the house with the water service in the front, on a slap.


 

I think the water pipe should be used, as buzzkill pointed out, all the piping and rods combined make an excellent electrode. 

However, I would go along with the theory that we would be better off to not take it into our service panel. It seems it would do just as good to take the water bond to the meter or weatherhead, so many times the GECwould never have to enter the home. Thus, wouldn't get cut by some plumbing remodel, and possibly keep lightning on a different path other than through our service panels

But , electrically a lightning strike is probably do the same thing in the end.


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## 480sparky

I'm still waiting for this 'research'.

Maybe Riveter isn't ready to publish yet.


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## wildleg

I think I should point out the obvious:

The code is the minimum standard, not necessarily the best practice.

You can always sell the customer on a better system, if that is your intention. Sell them on the idea of interrupting the water piping with a plastic section - perfectly legal. Sell them on lighting protection, whole house surge, TVSSs, etc. You will be doing them a service.

Can the water piping become dangerous when used as a grounding electrode ? yes. It can be dangerous just being bonded, if something else goes wrong (metal lath energized, neighbor has loose neutral which backfeeds everone's water piping, etc.) 

I'm not qualified to present the best solution to all of this. I think it would be a huge step in the right direction if the poco's were required to add a grounding wire to all their distribution (rather than using the earth and electrodes every 1/4 mile). I think it would be a good thing if all structures 2 story and above were required to have an air terminal (not that that would necessarily take the hit. It's a known fact that the smoke from your fireplace can act as a path if you have a fire going when the storm hits)

Again, I don't know the solution, but I don't like it when I see current on water pipe and it's coming in from the street.


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## Bob Badger

The NEC can do nothing about the stray current issue, the utilities would have to re-wire the entire distribution network so that it has a grounding and a grounded conductor, no more sharing grounding conductors with circuit conductors.

I am not going to hold my breath waiting for that change.:no:


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## jwjrw

Bob Badger said:


> The NEC can do nothing about the stray current issue, the utilities would have to re-wire the entire distribution network so that it has a grounding and a grounded conductor, no more sharing grounding conductors with circuit conductors.
> 
> I am not going to hold my breath waiting for that change.:no:


 

Will you please explain the statement "no more sharing grounding conductors with circuit conductors"? For some reason I don't follow. I'm a little slow at times.


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## Bob Badger

jwjrw said:


> Will you please explain the statement "no more sharing grounding conductors with circuit conductors"? For some reason I don't follow. I'm a little slow at times.



Look at the standard service to a US home, you have three conductors, two hots and one "MGN" which is a 'multi-grounded neutral'.

That MGN is used as a circuit conductor and a grounding means for the service enclosures.


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## jwjrw

Bob Badger said:


> Look at the standard service to a US home, you have three conductors, two hots and one "MGN" which is a 'multi-grounded neutral'.
> 
> That MGN is used as a circuit conductor and a grounding means for the service enclosures.


 

Gotcha! The way you said it just confused me. Basically you are saying if poco used a 4 wire it would be possible.


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## DavidRoberts

I've done service changes on old houses that have slowly been upgraded through the years. I recall a EGC clamped to a (lead) water pipe coming out of the (brick) basement/foundation wall. The pipe had not been in use (for water) for a long time and had been cut about 6" out of the wall. Leaving just enough for the ground clamp. When i grabbed & pull to test the connection, i ended up with 12" of pipe that crumbled in my hand. That is why i prefer to have a grounding electrode specifically for that purpose.


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## RIVETER

480sparky said:


> OK, but how about offering up some of that research you mentioned?
> 
> And what does that have to do with loose neutral?


Do you still want to know about this one? Or do you have your answer?


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## 480sparky

RIVETER said:


> Do you still want to know about this one?


Absoloopy! 



RIVETER said:


> Or do you have your answer?


Nope. Are you ready to publish your research?


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## RIVETER

480sparky said:


> Absoloopy!
> 
> 
> 
> Nope. Are you ready to publish your research?


Looking back, I did say research, didn't I? Actually, I just read a lot and try to remember what I read, and try to apply it to my own thinking. Maybe that isn't research...but that is what I do. What specific question do you have?


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## 480sparky

RIVETER said:


> Looking back, I did say research, didn't I? Actually, I just read a lot and try to remember what I read, and try to apply it to my own thinking. Maybe that isn't research...but that is what I do. What specific question do you have?



I want to change my question to : Do you ever read your posts before you submit them?


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## 480sparky

RIVETER said:


> Looking back, I did say research, didn't I? Actually, I just read a lot and try to remember what I read, and try to apply it to my own thinking. Maybe that isn't research...but that is what I do. What specific question do you have?



I want to change my question to : Do you ever read your posts before you submit them?:laughing:


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## RIVETER

480sparky said:


> I want to change my question to : Do you ever read your posts before you submit them?


Certainly, I do. But only for clarity, punctuation, and for ease of reading in order to suit those who have a hard time in understanding.:thumbsup:


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## jwjrw

We have all posted something that came across differently then intended because of our poor choice of words. At least I have.


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## RIVETER

jwjrw said:


> We have all posted something that came across differently then intended because of our poor choice of words. At least I have.


Yeah, me too. That last remark was actually meant to target 480Sparky. He sometimes says snotty things to me and I know he doesn't really mean it. I think he likes me, but just doesn't know how to say it.


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## jwjrw

RIVETER said:


> Yeah, me too. That last remark was actually meant to target 480Sparky. He sometimes says snotty things to me and I know he doesn't really mean it. I think he likes me, but just doesn't know how to say it.


 

Actually he only attacks when he feels what someone posts is incorrect.
Kinda like the junkyard dog..You might get growled at, he might run till the chain stops him and just bark at you......BUT if you get to close he will bite!!:laughing:


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## RIVETER

jwjrw said:


> Actually he only attacks when he feels what someone posts is in correct.
> Kinda like the juckyard dog..You might get growled at, he might run till the chain stops him and just bark at you......BUT if you get to close he will bite!!:laughing:


Knowledge and experience makes you fearless of junkyard dogs. Actually, I think he is ok and I enjoy the discourse.


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## Shockdoc

RIVETER said:


> I have talked about this before. I am not in favor of using the water pipe as a grounding electrode. Am I alone in this thinking?


Are you kidding? A metalic watermain is the best form of grounding one can use. I've also found steel well encasements as a great form of grounding.


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## RIVETER

Shockdoc said:


> Are you kidding? A metalic watermain is the best form of grounding one can use. I've also found steel well encasements as a great form of grounding.


A lot of time has passed since it was determined that the water pipe was a good grounding electrode. It was thought to be the best but...in my opinion...no more, and for the obvious reasons. Other issues have cropped up concerning LOOSE NEUTRALS and the like that can be a safety problem.


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## McClary’s Electrical

RIVETER said:


> A lot of time has passed since it was determined that the water pipe was a good grounding electrode. It was thought to be the best but...in my opinion...no more, and for the obvious reasons. Other issues have cropped up concerning LOOSE NEUTRALS and the like that can be a safety problem.


 
Please elaborate and quit beating around your point. What are you saying?


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## Shockdoc

RIVETER said:


> A lot of time has passed since it was determined that the water pipe was a good grounding electrode. It was thought to be the best but...in my opinion...no more, and for the obvious reasons. Other issues have cropped up concerning LOOSE NEUTRALS and the like that can be a safety problem.


Out here they have a continuos metalic system so as long as a quality (DB rated) clamp is used , a lost neutral won't become an issue. I ran a #4 run to my well encasement at my home in PA and fooled around disconnecting the neutral with a limited load( no expensive electronics)The system held fine with no voltage spikes. definetly beat the dual 8' galvanized rods. l


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## RIVETER

Shockdoc said:


> Out here they have a continuos metalic system so as long as a quality (DB rated) clamp is used , a lost neutral won't become an issue. I ran a #4 run to my well encasement at my home in PA and fooled around disconnecting the neutral with a limited load( no expensive electronics)The system held fine with no voltage spikes. definetly beat the dual 8' galvanized rods. l


I believe that adds credence to my suggestion that the current has to go home, and if the normal...correct path is not available, it will go through the least resistance to get there. The fact that the loads will maintain says that if a neutral is loosened in one place it may find a path through the water pipe system of a neighbor.


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## DavidRoberts

RIVETER said:


> I believe that adds credence to my suggestion that the current has to go home, and if the normal...correct path is not available, it will go through the least resistance to get there. The fact that the loads will maintain says that if a neutral is loosened in one place it may find a path through the water pipe system of a neighbor.


I agree that a well head is a *dam good* ground. I can also see the reason to avoid using it as it is usually a shared systems with nieghbors ( as RIVETER states ). Dedicated ground rods are the safest way to go ( in my opinion ), eliminates any confusion for other electricians ( and electrons  ) that may work on that system in the future.


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## Shockdoc

RIVETER said:


> I believe that adds credence to my suggestion that the current has to go home, and if the normal...correct path is not available, it will go through the least resistance to get there. The fact that the loads will maintain says that if a neutral is loosened in one place it may find a path through the water pipe system of a neighbor.


 But that waterpipe travels for miles 5 feet in the ground in a continuos system. even if tied in a nieghborhood system the ground resistance is the lowest and most acceptance to current. take the test, my house in PA originally had a ground rod with no watermain ground, we had lost our neutral two poles away and fried all our electronic appliances. After the well attachment we survived the second utility neutral faliure with slight dimming of lights. I,ve seen dozens of LI homes survive serious loss with the watermain gound over others with the dual rod system. This is just my observance over a 25 year period.


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## nitro71

RIVETER said:


> There has got to be someone out there who is in agreement with me that the water pipe should not be incorporated into the Grounding system. Where are you?


Not me. I think it should be bonded. 

Lets say the water supply piping does become energized and you are not bonding the water pipe coming it. Now you have potential between your faucets and any bonded item such as a mixer in your kitchen. So you hold the mixer in one hand and reach for the faucet with the other. 

It's been mentioned that as a GEC it gets disconnected in lieu of plastic piping. Probably why we have to have a supplemental electrode in addition to the water pipe electrode.


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## nitro71

jwjrw said:


> Actually he only attacks when he feels what someone posts is incorrect.
> Kinda like the juckyard dog..You might get growled at, he might run till the chain stops him and just bark at you......BUT if you get to close he will bite!!:laughing:


I've got this new pepper spray I've been wanting to test. Some Fox Labs stuff.. :whistling2:


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## Article 90.1

If we have to bond the water of a pool, why don't we have to bond the water flowing through our homes? I see bonding of the water piping as more of bringing it to zero potential, than having it act as a GE.


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## RIVETER

Article 90.1 said:


> If we have to bond the water of a pool, why don't we have to bond the water flowing through our homes? I see bonding of the water piping as more of bringing it to zero potential, than having it act as a GE.


The water within the pipe is bonded. And the result is keeping it at supposedly zero volts potential. That works well if you have a faulted circuit(hot to ground) because the overload protection will trip. It is not the same thing as when a STRAY current finds it's way into the water pipe system. You can have various differences of potential depending on where you are when you come in contact with the pipe. The water pipe actually is a parallel path of circuit current. Am I explaining this adequately?


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## Article 90.1

I get what you are saying. But RE: bonding the water, I was thinking more along the lines of an all plastic plumbing system, in which the water may be potentially isolated from the GES.


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## RIVETER

Article 90.1 said:


> I get what you are saying. But RE: bonding the water, I was thinking more along the lines of an all plastic plumbing system, in which the water may be potentially isolated from the GES.


That is the way it is at my cabin. As far as being an electrode, physically, that is from the line side of the water shutoff and then on out to the main. I think that the driven grounds, possibly two, or a ufer is all you need.


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