# Close call with MWBC



## nyerinfl (Dec 1, 2007)

Thought I'd share a close call with a MWBC I had today. So I'm finishing setting up a home theater system; mount 60" TV, bose surround sound, dvd, new cable line. So I just finished this and it's all done, the homeowner tells me she wants the switched receptacle which has the surge protector with all the home theater equipment plugged in turned into a constant hot receptacle and a new light added.

So I add a new box into the ceiling for the light and mount the light and grabbed the switch leg in the attic that was going to the switched receptacle, cut it and rerouted it to the new light fixture and spliced in the other end of the SW receptacle into a constant hot. 

Light fixture not working, readings at the light - 120v L-G, 0v L-N, open the switch, neutral appeared to be tied in, after a while I removed the neutral going to the new light from the splice, flipped on the breaker and I heard POP POP coming from the surge protector with ALL of the new home theater equipment plugged into it, and see sparks flying from that area, immediately I turned off the breaker and thought 'oh shi....'. 

So I go back to the switch box and find that some jackass had cut the neutral wire in the romex, above the connector where it wasn't visible, but the romex in front on the same connector made me think the white wire was there but it wasn't, plus the box was filled tightly. So I stretched the romex down, stripped the jacket to get the neutral and connect it all back up. Flipped the breaker back on...

:thumbsup: All home theater equipment working, surge protector is fried, replaced surge protector and all good. Closest call I've ever had with MWBC, anyone got any good near miss or some good damaged equipment stories?


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

nyerinfl said:


> anyone got any good near miss or some good damaged equipment stories?


I was working on a lift in a Comp USA, I was just checking out a 4" square box up on a truss to see if we could snake some more into the EMTs. As soon as I pulled the cover off a red wire nut sprung off a badly made neutral splice. Right away I can hear a faint buzzing from below. 

I do what I have to with the splice but it was some time and soon enough I get whiff of that smell.  One of the store drones comes over and asks me if 'the clutch is OK in my lift' because he can smell it. Moron. :laughing:

The smell was coming from an row of Apple computers ..... luckily I found it was the surge suppressor outlets that smoked. I replaced those and the Apples lived. :thumbsup:


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## JBIRD (Mar 26, 2008)

MWBC?
what does that stand for?


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## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

JBIRD said:


> MWBC?
> what does that stand for?


Multi-wire Branch Circuit.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

JBIRD said:


> MWBC?
> what does that stand for?


Multi Wire Branch Circuit.

~Matt


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## SparkYZ (Jan 20, 2010)

I've replaced subpanels in Wal-Mart stores, and nothing is more fun than the neutrals sparking off of conduits, when the feeders are GONE, and there is absolutely nothing feeding the panel.
(some jackass tied into the wrong neutral somewhere in the store) 
Sad thing is, this has happened numerous times.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

These are the reasons why I never use MWBC. Of course I do resi work mostly but I have seen more trouble with them then they are worth. 

I don't want to spark an argument on this because I know we all have our own opinions on the subject and there is no right or wrong. I just feel better not using them.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> These are the reasons why I never use MWBC. Of course I do resi work mostly but I have seen more trouble with them then they are worth.
> 
> I don't want to spark an argument on this because I know we all have our own opinions on the subject and there is no right or wrong. *I just feel better not using them.*



And I feel better using them.:thumbsup:


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## Old Spark (Nov 18, 2008)

It's the shared neutrals that I don't like. I know how to use them, but too many people don't. Especially in residential. I've had two calls in homes in different localities where people complained they have outlets that don't work. Someone in the family has a meter and tells them they have only 50 volts. One friend hooked up the ground wire with the neutral and OK! everything works again. They had enough sense to call me to find out if it was safe. I knew they had lost a neutral somewhere, but finding it took 1/2 hr. What I found was the resi electrician used 14-3 to plugs throughout the kitchen and living room. He first ran it to the smoke detector, then sent the circuits out from there. The neutral had gotten hot and pulled out of the wire nut. I found the reason for the overheating of the neutral was.......he hooked up both red and black wires to a twin breaker. Same phase, so the neutral carried both loads. It's too chancy to wire residential with shared neutrals. Too many handymen or home owner doing electrical on later projects. It's bound to end up with a burned up neutral or if the wire nut is not tight enough, then a lost neutral. This can cause 240 volts applied to 120 volt equipment.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

David Channell said:


> It's the shared neutrals that I don't like. I know how to use them, but too many people don't. Especially in residential. I've had two calls in homes in different localities where people complained they have outlets that don't work. Someone in the family has a meter and tells them they have only 50 volts. One friend hooked up the ground wire with the neutral and OK! everything works again. They had enough sense to call me to find out if it was safe. I knew they had lost a neutral somewhere, but finding it took 1/2 hr. What I found was the resi electrician *used 14-3 to plugs throughout the kitchen* and living room. He first ran it to the smoke detector, then sent the circuits out from there. The neutral had gotten hot and pulled out of the wire nut. I found the reason for the overheating of the neutral was.......he hooked up both red and black wires to a twin breaker. Same phase, so the neutral carried both loads. It's too chancy to wire residential with shared neutrals. Too many handymen or home owner doing electrical on later projects. It's bound to end up with a burned up neutral or if the wire nut is not tight enough, then a lost neutral. This can cause 240 volts applied to 120 volt equipment.


Was that a typo? :blink:


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## Old Spark (Nov 18, 2008)

No, the whole house was mostly 14 wire. I don't know where the inspector was.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

David Channell said:


> It's the shared neutrals that I don't like. I know how to use them, but too many people don't. Especially in residential.


Not my worry, I cannot protect idiots from themselves. I will provide a safe electrical system but as soon as the unqualified decide to start pulling covers off all bets are off.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Bob Badger said:


> Not my worry, I cannot protect idiots from themselves. I will provide a safe electrical system but as soon as the unqualified decide to start pulling covers off all bets are off.


Too bad the NEC and the CMPs don't think like that.


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## Old Spark (Nov 18, 2008)

I will say the inspectors around here lately are young and school trained. They are really into the code book, but some have never done any electrical work, so they get easily confused. I've had to spend time going thru the N.E.C. and try to help them understand what they are reading. Recently one tried to tell me I had to ground a Gas Station Canopy based on the 1000 amp service to the site. He wanted a 3/0 copper ground to a 1/2" ground rod. We only had three 20 amp circuits for lighting to the canopy. He finally allowed us to ground the canopy column with a number 4 cu. It already had a number 10 pulled in with the lighting ckts. And the eight canopy columns had thirty two 48" anchor bolts in the concrete footings.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

David Channell said:


> We only had three 20 amp circuits for lighting to the canopy.


I know that is done all the time but is that not a violation of 225.30?


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## Old Spark (Nov 18, 2008)

Apparently not. Gas Stations have too many lights and sign to have only one circuit. You sure dont want a panel located out at a gas island. We've never been challenged about having more that one circuit to a gas station canopy. Maybe it falls under the 225.30 A-6, We are required to have the ability to turn off part of the lights, like half switching too thou nobody every turns of part of the canopy lights. I've been working on gas stations for 25+ years now and the only thing that has changed is the type of light fixtures. Some are starting to go L.E.D., they are quite a bid more expensive but cheaper to operate. When you consider 18 to 30 lights on a canopy at 320 or 400 watts, it does not take long to pay for the extra cost for L.E.D.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> I cannot protect idiots from themselves. I will provide a safe electrical system but as soon as the unqualified decide to start pulling covers off all bets are off.


Problem is, even a qualified individual may get into trouble simply by pulling a cover.

I have had the same thing happen to me in an office building. Pulled the 4s blank, heard the sizzle and a fax machine/copier click on/off. I was able to save that one but it was a close call.

*I know* it wasn't my fault but the circuitry is hard enough for a lot of electricians to grasp. I don't want to be in the position of trying to explain it to the owner of the damaged equipment.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

MWBC's are extremely dangerous and should be permanently banned forever.

Oh, wait, except for services and feeders. In those cases, a shared neutral is fine. :laughing:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

220/221 said:


> *I know* it wasn't my fault but the circuitry is hard enough for a lot of electricians to grasp. I don't want to be in the position of trying to explain it to the owner of the damaged equipment.


So you're still arguing from the point of view that we should protect unqualified and not use a perfectly safe wiring method?


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

Nope. :jester:

I'm simply saying that I don't want to explain why something I worked on killed a bunch of equipment. Bottom line, it is probably going to be "my fault".



> Oh, wait, except for services and feeders. In those cases, a shared neutral is fine.


In a typical installation the service neutral consists of only a couple possible failure points. The branch circuits could be many more. 

In a lot of cases, I use MWBC's but if it is easy to wire with seperate neutrals, I will choose that route.

*Different scenarios demand differnt wiring methods.*

Two 20 amp dedicated circuits for servers gets seperate neutrals.

A dishwasher/disposal circuit and a kitchen countertop recep circuit will likely get a 3 wire HR if the panel is across the house. If the panel is close I will just run two cables. Same with the other kit circuits.

If I need to pull 3 or 4 circuits in a 1/2" pipe, a shared neutral will be used.


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## Old Spark (Nov 18, 2008)

We used to downsize the neutral to gas station canopy's from 10, which we pulled for voltage drop to a 12 since it only carried the unbalanced load. With matching circuits, we sometimes had 0 on the neutral. That worked fine as long as we had single phase. We found out with three phase and you use one neutral for all three phases, the neutral usually carries at least the highest phase load. Downsizing with three phase neutrals is real bad. We just pull a neutral for each circuit now. Who needs the grief.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

220/221 said:


> In a typical installation the service neutral consists of only a couple possible failure points. The branch circuits could be many more.


Think about that though. Lose the service neutral and you can fry and entire household worth of equipment, potentially. Lose a branch circuit neutral and you only fry what's on the branch. Now, that could be the nice new entertainment center, but still, I don't buy the logic.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Peter D said:


> Lose a branch circuit neutral and you only fry what's on the branch.


I agree with your view and want to just say you_ might_ fry equipment, I have seen equipment survive open neutrals fine. It just depends on the circuit loading at the time.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> I agree with your view and want to just say you_ might_ fry equipment, I have seen equipment survive open neutrals fine. It just depends on the circuit loading at the time.


Yes, I was aware of that when I was writing it which is why I said "potentially" but should have said "might." Definitely too many variables to say how much equipment could get fried depending on what is turned on at the time.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Peter D said:


> Think about that though. Lose the service neutral and you can fry and entire household worth of equipment, potentially. Lose a branch circuit neutral and you only fry what's on the branch. Now, that could be the nice new entertainment center, but still, I don't buy the logic.


 
I would temper that to say you might fry _half _the stuff in a house.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Peter D said:


> Yes, I was aware of that when I was writing it which is why I said "potentially" but should have said "might." Definitely too many variables to say how much equipment could get fried depending on what is turned on at the time.


And I do know that you knew that even for a hack


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

480sparky said:


> I would temper that to say you might fry _half _the stuff in a house.


:sleep1: 



Bob Badger said:


> And I do know that you knew that even for a hack


Hacks know enough to be dangerous, remember? :whistling2:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Peter D said:


> :sleep1:
> 
> 
> 
> Hacks know enough to be dangerous, remember? :whistling2:


So hacks don't know that _under_voltage won't burn things up?


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

Bob Badger said:


> And I feel better using them.:thumbsup:


 Me too.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

480sparky said:


> So hacks don't know that _under_voltage won't burn things up?


:sleep1::sleep1::sleep1:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Bob Badger said:


> :sleep1::sleep1::sleep1:


Glad to see you aspire to be like Peter.

But unfortunately, there will only be ONE Peter.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)




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## joebell (Sep 1, 2007)

Peter D said:


> Think about that though. Lose the service neutral and you can fry and entire household worth of equipment, potentially. Lose a branch circuit neutral and you only fry what's on the branch. Now, that could be the nice new entertainment center, but still, I don't buy the logic.


 
I know this is not the purpose of a GEC but wouldn't the GEC act as a return path if the service neutral was lost?



Joe


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

joebell said:


> I know this is not the purpose of a GEC but wouldn't the GEC act as a return path if the service neutral was lost?
> Joe


Do you mean EGC? And it would not if it is wired correctly.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Open Neutral.


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## joebell (Sep 1, 2007)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Do you mean EGC? And it would not if it is wired correctly.


 
No the Grounding Electrode Conductor, i'm talking in terms of the neutral of the service not the branch circuit.


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## RJS3rd (Sep 17, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


>


I really need to understand this better because I experienced this for the first time last year.

Line 2 is getting 240v because line 1's neutral is looking for ground?

The same way you get 120v from neutral to ground in a 2 wire circuit that has an open neutral?


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

RJS3rd said:


> I really need to understand this better because I experienced this for the first time last year.
> 
> Line 2 is getting 240v because line 1's neutral is looking for ground?
> 
> The same way you get 120v from neutral to ground in a 2 wire circuit that has an open neutral?


Line 1 normally would go thru the load and return on the neutral. If I go to the panel and lift that circuits neutral I would read 120v to the panel neutral. 

Line 2 would normally do the same. When the neutral is broken you can see how phase A or line 1 feeds thru the load to what use to be the neutral connection of that circuit 2 or B phase. 

So now circuit #2 has Phase "A" hooked to one side and Phase "B" hooked to the other. That means that the originally 120v circuit is now getting 240v. Not good.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

joebell said:


> No the Grounding Electrode Conductor, i'm talking in terms of the neutral of the service not the branch circuit.


Well, yes and no. It would depend on what you had at the house. If your GEC was to a ground rod then no but you would get some current on it. If the GEC was part of a metallic water system that was connected at other homes to the neutrals so that there was a connection between it all then yes you could run off the GEC. For how long I don't know.


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## joebell (Sep 1, 2007)

RJS3rd said:


> I really need to understand this better because I experienced this for the first time last year.
> 
> Line 2 is getting 240v because line 1's neutral is looking for ground?
> 
> The same way you get 120v from neutral to ground in a 2 wire circuit that has an open neutral?


 

In reality you are making a series circuit and depending on the loads (ohms) one of them will receive a higher voltage.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Once again, Open Neutral.


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## RJS3rd (Sep 17, 2009)

Ok, thanks guys. Its a little more clearer now. My boss even doesnt understand this.

He still doesnt believe I had 240 hot/neutral on that call (I finally found the problem in a light and repaired it).

Stupid question.. is it possible to predict which load (and which phase) this might happen?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

RJS3rd said:


> .........Stupid question.. is it possible to predict which load (and which phase) this might happen?


Only if you know the loads that are on each leg, or phase, of the system.


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## joebell (Sep 1, 2007)

480sparky said:


> Once again, Open Neutral.


 
Cool Power point 480 is it yours?


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## RJS3rd (Sep 17, 2009)

Ok. Good to know. Many thanks.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

joebell said:


> Cool Power point 480 is it yours?


Yes, but everyone is free to use it.


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## RJS3rd (Sep 17, 2009)

Ok guys next dumb question: If theres no load on either (every thing unplugged) circuit is it still possible to get 240 across one line or is it dependant on the load?

...(after I read that I realised someone allready answered that I think)


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

RJS3rd said:


> Ok guys next dumb question: If theres no load on either (every thing unplugged) circuit is it still possible to get 240 across one line or is it dependant on the load?
> 
> ...(after I read that I realised someone allready answered that I think)


If there is no load then there is no way to connect the line to neutral. Think of a circuit with one recep. If nothing is plugged in how can you have a connection across the two conductors. Does that help.

Plug in a light and then the connection is made thru the filament of the bulb.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

RJS3rd said:


> Ok guys next dumb question: If theres no load on either (every thing unplugged) circuit is it still possible to get 240 across one line or is it dependant on the load?
> 
> ...(after I read that I realised someone allready answered that I think)


If there are no loads, then the circuit is not complete.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> I know this is not the purpose of a GEC but wouldn't the GEC act as a return path if the service neutral was lost?


Perhaps if the service neutral was opened. It would do nothing on a branch circuit.

Feel free to use my power point demonstration also.










^ Those are light bulbs btw.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

I finally dug the photos I took to illustrate an open neutral:

Two 100w lamps in series across 240volts (no neutral): Since both loads are equal, circuit is balanced and no neutral is needed.










Left to right: 127.18 volts on left lamp, 248.2 volts across both lamps, 0.82 amps current, 120.4v on right lamp.

Then I replaced the left lamp with a 60w:










Current drops to .54 amps, and you can see what happens to the voltages across both lamps.... 191.39 and 56.7.

The lower current device has a higher voltage. You can see the 100w lamp on the left is significantly dimmer.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Nice job with the demo.. do you own all those meters?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Black4Truck said:


> Nice job with the demo.. do you own all those meters?


Yes. And those aren't all I own.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Yes. And those aren't all I own.


FLUKE on extreme left is my choice.. I like the display


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Black4Truck said:


> FLUKE on extreme left is my choice.. I like the display


It's a 289.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

That demo is awesome visiual. Care if I save those pics?

~Matt


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

TOOL_5150 said:


> That demo is awesome visiual. Care if I save those pics?
> 
> ~Matt


 
Go ahead. One thing I should note is the screen is actually white, but shows up blue in the photos.


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## Old Spark (Nov 18, 2008)

My question then is...........what happens to the equipment that is plugged in to close the circuit when you loose the neutral? Does the one that got the higher than normal voltage burn up or out and the one with the lower that normal volts is undamaged? Obviously if the light bulb with the high voltage burns out, the circuit will open, but what if it is a 120 volt motor or a computer?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

David Channell said:


> My question then is...........what happens to the equipment that is plugged in to close the circuit when you loose the neutral? Does the one that got the higher than normal voltage burn up or out and the one with the lower that normal volts is undamaged? Obviously if the light bulb with the high voltage burns out, the circuit will open, but what if it is a 120 volt motor or a computer?


It all depends on how 'tolerant' it is to the voltage difference. Some things work just fine at 150v for hours, others get smoked immediately. There's just no way to predict it.


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## Old Spark (Nov 18, 2008)

Your are right. It is a system that is too dangerous for untrained handymen and homeowners to deal with. That's why I hate to see it in residential. We all know that many home owners will always try to do their own or hire a friend or handyman. Shoot, I started out as a handyman myself. I was lucky! I did not know how much trouble I could have caused until I got some training. I've been commercial for 25 years now, licensed, certified and still don't know near enough to get the bid head.


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## Sparkee (Sep 22, 2009)

I ran into a similar problem. The "handyman" had removed all the fixtures to paint in a apartment and all the wires got white on them. The light in the closet he had capped off the neutral wire coming from the bathroom instead of tying it to the other neutral wires in the box (hence an open neutral). He got the bathroom lights to work by tying the white wire to the metal box (creating a path to ground, always a bad sign, never do it!). But since he could not get the outlets in the bathroom to work they decided to call me. I corrected his wiring then I had to remove a few fixtures before I discovered the capped off wire. Kind of scary when you get 220 volts from a hot to what you think is a neutral.


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## Old Spark (Nov 18, 2008)

Did you get to have a discussion with the so called "handyman"? He needs to know that he could kill someone.


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## Fredman (Dec 2, 2008)

Just once - I have to add my 2 cents to one of these "I will not use a MWBC because someone unqualified will touch it" threads. 

I find it absolutely absurd that we would consider omitting a perfectly safe wiring method because some dumbass handyman might go pocking around where he should never, *ever* be. 

Do you think all handymen know to limit themselves to everything *after *the service gear?? 

I think we should carry this one step further and run two neutrals from the pole? Cant be too carefull ya know... :blink::no::laughing:

Absolutely absurd. Just wire nut the dam connection correctly. End of story.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Fredman said:


> Just once - I have to add my 2 cents to one of these "I will not use a MWBC because someone unqualified will touch it" threads.
> 
> I find it absolutely absurd that we would consider omitting a perfectly safe wiring method because some dumbass handyman might go pocking around where he should never, *ever* be.
> 
> ...


 
I totally agree. I dont do plumbing because I dont know how and if I did it
and got covered in crap it would be my fault:thumbup:.


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## CFine (May 20, 2008)

While we're at it why don't we just run MWBC to all parts of the house, That way when some dumbass pokes around and get shocked or anything thats one less dumbass in the gene pool. Sorry stupid people annoy me. I'm still debating if i should risk useing MWBC on this house rewire or not. doing the service change is easy, but the rest i'm debating on how to do it. 1081 sqft of living space and the house is 1910's when it was built.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> I was working on a lift in a Comp USA, I was just checking out a 4" square box up on a truss to see if we could snake some more into the EMTs. As soon as I pulled the cover off a red wire nut sprung off a badly made neutral splice. Right away I can hear a faint buzzing from below.
> 
> I do what I have to with the splice but it was some time and soon enough I get whiff of that smell.  One of the store drones comes over and asks me if 'the clutch is OK in my lift' because he can smell it. Moron. :laughing:
> 
> The smell was coming from an row of Apple computers ..... luckily I found it was the surge suppressor outlets that smoked. I replaced those and the Apples lived. :thumbsup:


I had the same thing happen at an Office Depot. No surge protectors!
Smoked a whole row of computers.
The stock guys came out, packed them up and put new ones back on the shelf.
Nobody said a word.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Fredman said:


> Just once - I have to add my 2 cents to one of these "I will not use a MWBC because someone unqualified will touch it" threads.
> 
> I find it absolutely absurd that we would consider omitting a perfectly safe wiring method because some dumbass handyman might go pocking around where he should never, *ever* be.
> 
> ...


Ditto that Fredman. :thumbsup:


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## RJS3rd (Sep 17, 2009)

480sparky said:


> I finally dug the photos I took to illustrate an open neutral:
> 
> Two 100w lamps in series across 240volts (no neutral): Since both loads are equal, circuit is balanced and no neutral is needed.
> 
> ...



That is an outstanding demo 480. After 20 years doing this Im still learning every day.

What would happen if you removed the left lamp completely so there is only the one load?


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## Daniel Korb (Jan 26, 2010)

Sparkee said:


> I ran into a similar problem. The "handyman" had removed all the fixtures to paint in a apartment and all the wires got white on them. The light in the closet he had capped off the neutral wire coming from the bathroom instead of tying it to the other neutral wires in the box* (hence an open neutral)*. He got the bathroom lights to work by tying the white wire to the metal box (creating a path to ground, always a bad sign, never do it!). But since he could not get the outlets in the bathroom to work they decided to call me. I corrected his wiring then I had to remove a few fixtures before I discovered the capped off wire. Kind of scary when you get 220 volts from a hot to what you think is a neutral.


ouch that sucks


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