# 20k Generac Generator



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Yes, the generator needs a disconnect within site.


----------



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Alot of them have a breaker on th gen that would count.


----------



## Houston2525 (Oct 15, 2011)

this generator has a breaker on it. any idea what size wire i need for controls/ the sensing voltage is 240 and its fused at 5amps so i was going to run 14/2. but i dont know what size for 12v?


----------



## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

Watch out for 702.11.


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Houston2525 said:


> this generator has a breaker on it. any idea what size wire i need for controls/ the sensing voltage is 240 and its fused at 5amps so i was going to run 14/2. but i dont know what size for 12v?


Check your owners installation manual. Additionally how far is the generator from the ATS?

But typically #14 AWG is sufficent for controls


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

NH makes us have a seperate disconnect even though many have a breaker on them.


----------



## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

brian john said:


> Check your owners installation manual. Additionally how far is the generator from the ATS?
> 
> But typically #14 AWG is sufficent for controls


The installation manual has all the information you need. The control lugs usually will accept up to #12. Usually we run two #14 thhn from the ats to the genset.


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Houston2525 said:


> this generator has a breaker on it. any idea what size wire i need for controls/ the sensing voltage is 240 and its fused at 5amps so i was going to run 14/2. but i dont know what size for 12v?


What do you mean you were going to run 14/2? Do you mean NM cable?


----------



## Houston2525 (Oct 15, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> What do you mean you were going to run 14/2? Do you mean NM cable?


I was going to 14/2 romex across the basement. And then do j-box outside with flex going into the generator.


----------



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

nrp3 said:


> NH makes us have a seperate disconnect even though many have a breaker on them.


 
I had a fire marshall make that call on me one time. His justification was, if the generator cover is locked, and the house is on fire, they pull up, pull the meter, the GEN fires up, the cover is locked, and there's no way to cut it off.


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> I had a fire marshall make that call on me one time. His justification was, if the generator cover is locked, and the house is on fire, they pull up, pull the meter, the GEN fires up, the cover is locked, and there's no way to cut it off.


I had inspector allow me to label the gas shut off as the generator disconnect...


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

That and I think it eliminates finding the breaker for people who don't know where to look. A disconnect is more obvious.


----------



## tkb (Jan 21, 2009)

The breaker has to be readily accessible and service entrance rated. 

It can be behind a locked door but the breakers are not service entrance rated so you will need an additional disconnect.


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Is that for optional standby ones or is that in another section? Does that get us into seperately derived systems, because most of these small ones the neutral/ground are seperate, or I guess define service entrance rated would be a better question? Apparently I have been doing this wrong by just mounting a pull out type for these small units on a 4x4 post next to the generator.


----------



## tkb (Jan 21, 2009)

Here are the requirements for the disconnect.



> *702.12 Outdoor Generator Sets*
> Where an outdoor housed generator set is equipped with a readily accessible disconnecting means located within sight of the building or structure supplied, an additional disconnecting means shall not be required where ungrounded conductors serve or pass through the building or structure. The disconnecting means shall meet the requirements of 225.36.
> 
> *NEC Handbook Commentary for 702.12*
> ...


OSHA interprets the NEC Handbook commentary the same way.
http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=INTERPRETATIONS&p_id=25159


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I'll have to look for a service rated disconnect from now on. I have a new install to look at Monday, not sure how big yet.


----------



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

tkb said:


> Here are the requirements for the disconnect.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

The first paragraph clearly allows the breaker on the GEN to be the disco.


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I would agree, but I still have add an external one due to local requirements.


----------



## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

Houston2525 said:


> Do i need a disconnect for the generator if the ATS switch is inside? and what size wire do need for controls from ATS to Generator?


All you need is 6 wires from ATS TO GEN if it's a Generac. They can be in the same conduit has the emergency power.

Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


----------



## tkb (Jan 21, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> The first paragraph clearly allows the breaker on the GEN to be the disco.


I agree, but the catch is that it has to be service entrance rated and I never saw one that was.


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Inside a UL listed assembly?


----------



## tkb (Jan 21, 2009)

nrp3 said:


> Inside a UL listed assembly?


Why would that make it exempt?


----------



## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

tkb said:


> Why would that make it exempt?





Are we talking about backing up the whole panel or select loads like we did on this one?


----------



## Greg (Aug 1, 2007)

Houston2525 said:


> this generator has a breaker on it. any idea what size wire i need for controls/ the sensing voltage is 240 and its fused at 5amps so i was going to run 14/2. but i dont know what size for 12v?



I always run stranded wire for my controls, solid is a pain to land inside the enclosure, and on that generator you only need 18awg for the control wiring. Here is what you need, 15A 120VAC ckt for battery charging, then 2 wires for sensing, and 2 wires (12VDC) for start and transfer. DO NOT run them in the same pipe as the power feeds, it will work, with glitches, but it is stated in the install manual not to.


----------



## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Greg said:


> I always run stranded wire for my controls, solid is a pain to land inside the enclosure, and on that generator you only need 18awg for the control wiring.


I run 14 solid because it is what we stock. With wire that small I never have trouble bending it. But you are correct 18g is fine.




Greg said:


> Here is what you need, 15A 120VAC ckt for battery charging, then 2 wires for sensing, and 2 wires (12VDC) for start and transfer.



The battery charger circuit MAY state it must be GFI protected. And you want to bring it out of the transfer switch also. Most new gensets we have done lately only required the start/stop wires. No sensing wires required on the ones we have done.






Greg said:


> DO NOT run them in the same pipe as the power feeds, it will work, with glitches, but it is stated in the install manual not to.



The instructions with most gensets are pretty good. Almost so good a homeowner could hook a genny up.....I know Kohler tells you to run the control wires separate.


----------



## Greg (Aug 1, 2007)

jwjrw said:


> The battery charger circuit MAY state it must be GFI protected. And you want to bring it out of the transfer switch also. Most new gensets we have done lately only required the start/stop wires. No sensing wires required on the ones we have done.


This is a Generac, it will need the sensing ckt. The battery charger ckt doesn't need to come from the ATS or be GFI because it is hard wired in the generator, generac design.


----------



## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Greg said:


> I always run stranded wire for my controls, solid is a pain to land inside the enclosure, and on that generator you only need 18awg for the control wiring. Here is what you need, 15A 120VAC ckt for battery charging, then 2 wires for sensing, and 2 wires (12VDC) for start and transfer. DO NOT run them in the same pipe as the power feeds, it will work, with glitches, but it is stated in the install manual not to.





Greg said:


> This is a Generac, it will need the sensing ckt. The battery charger ckt doesn't need to come from the ATS or be GFI because it is hard wired in the generator, generac design.




We only install genrac commercial gensets. For residential I sell Kohler or Onan. I had a beef with Kohler but now that I understand how they have the system set up I will never sell another genrac again or bad mouth Kohler....With the resi kohler models you gfi protect the battery charger circuit fed from transfer switch. Run start and stop and that is about it.


----------



## Houston2525 (Oct 15, 2011)

I asked the local inspector and he said that the breaker on the generator is the disconnect means.


----------



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Houston2525 said:


> I asked the local inspector and he said that the breaker on the generator is the disconnect means.


Yes, but if the cover on the generator is lockable, the fire department may not accept that.


----------



## tkb (Jan 21, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Yes, but if the cover on the generator is lockable, the fire department may not accept that.


A lockable cover meets the "readily accessible" requirement, but the breaker that comes with the generator does not meet the "suitable for use as service equipment" requirement.



Houston2525 said:


> I asked the local inspector and he said that the breaker on the generator is the disconnect means.


Even though the inspector may accept it, it is still a violation and does not release you from the liability.


----------



## L8TRG8TR (Oct 15, 2011)

jwjrw said:


> Are we talking about backing up the whole panel or select loads like we did on this one?


 man that looks close where you able to get your clearances:whistling2:


----------



## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

tkb said:


> The breaker has to be readily accessible and service entrance rated.
> 
> It can be behind a locked door but the breakers are not service entrance rated so you will need an additional disconnect.


The breaker on the generator is considered a disconnect. No additional disconnect are required. A label must be placed on the meter stating the location of the generator and whether it's NG or LP
RESIDENTIAL USE ONLY.

Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


----------



## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

See!!!

Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


----------



## tkb (Jan 21, 2009)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> The breaker on the generator is considered a disconnect. No additional disconnect are required. A label must be placed on the meter stating the location of the generator and whether it's NG or LP
> RESIDENTIAL USE ONLY.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


Just because the breaker can be considered a disconnect, it does not make it "suitable for use as service equipment" as required by 702.12 & 225.36. This needs to be listed and labeled from the manufacturer.

Even though the inspector may accept it, it is still a violation and does not release you from the liability. 

Do you have a code section for your statement?


----------



## Bulldog1 (Oct 21, 2011)

tkb said:


> I agree, but the catch is that it has to be service entrance rated and I never saw one that was.



The breaker does not have to be service rated. We set a lot of gensets on the opposite side of the house from the service. I set a pull out only because we run SER AL then come out of the disconnect with copper to genset.


----------



## Bulldog1 (Oct 21, 2011)

tkb said:


> Just because the breaker can be considered a disconnect, it does not make it "suitable for use as service equipment" as required by 702.12 & 225.36. This needs to be listed and labeled from the manufacturer.
> 
> Even though the inspector may accept it, it is still a violation and does not release you from the liability.
> 
> Do you have a code section for your statement?


Where is your code reference for saying the disconnect for the generator has to be service rated. The generator is not the service.


----------



## Bulldog1 (Oct 21, 2011)

L8TRG8TR said:


> man that looks close where you able to get your clearances:whistling2:


Exactly 36 inches to A/C unit. :laughing:


----------



## tkb (Jan 21, 2009)

Bulldog1 said:


> Where is your code reference for saying the disconnect for the generator has to be service rated. The generator is not the service.


Just because the generator is not the service doesn't mean that the breaker doesn't have to be suitable for use as service equipment.

702.12 doesn't say anything about a service, only that the disconnect must be suitable for use as service entrance equipment.

702.12 refers to 225.36 which refers to 225.31 which is “Buildings or Structures Supplied by a Feeder(s) or Branch Circuit(s).
225.31 is NOT services.


----------



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

tkb said:


> Just because the generator is not the service doesn't mean that the breaker doesn't have to be suitable for use as service equipment.
> 
> 702.12 doesn't say anything about a service, only that the disconnect must be suitable for use as service entrance equipment.
> 
> ...


 
My stance is any breaker is service rated if you put the blue sticker on that says service disconnect. 

When you set a Main lug panel, with a backfed 100 amp breaker and hold down kit, do you find a breaker that says service rated? or do you put that sticker on there?


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I would think it was more about the enclosure being service rated and not the breaker. I have one about a third finished and have to get a disconnect for it.


----------



## Bulldog1 (Oct 21, 2011)

nrp3 said:


> I would think it was more about the enclosure being service rated and not the breaker. I have one about a third finished and have to get a disconnect for it.


That is correct. It is referring to the enclosure being marked as such. Our disconnects are.


----------



## tkb (Jan 21, 2009)

You will not find a generator with a factory breaker that is service rated.


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Like to find some of those decals too.


----------



## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

Bulldog1 said:


> Where is your code reference for saying the disconnect for the generator has to be service rated. The generator is not the service.


He has no idea what the hell he's talking about. Thank you.

Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


----------



## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

tkb said:


> Just because the breaker can be considered a disconnect, it does not make it "suitable for use as service equipment" as required by 702.12 & 225.36. This needs to be listed and labeled from the manufacturer.
> 
> Even though the inspector may accept it, it is still a violation and does not release you from the liability.
> 
> Do you have a code section for your statement?


The only thing that has to be service rated is ATS, if your backing up the whole house Using the exisiting feeder conductors from the load side of the Meter.

Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


----------



## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

nrp3 said:


> Like to find some of those decals too.


You like the decals.... Try your poco sometimes they will have them.

Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


----------



## tkb (Jan 21, 2009)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> The only thing that has to be service rated is ATS, if your backing up the whole house Using the exisiting feeder conductors from the load side of the Meter.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


How about a code reference to back up your claim?


----------



## Bulldog1 (Oct 21, 2011)

tkb said:


> How about a code reference to back up your claim?




You are correct about the service rated disconnect. We always set a knife switch when the genset is not in sight of the main service panel. They are suitable for service equipment which is why I had forgot about that. BUT IMO You are wrong that the "BREAKER" has to be marked as such. The disconnecting means must be marked suitable as service equipment which may or may not use a breaker. AND FYI if the manufacture states the breaker on the genset is suitable as a disconnect it overrides the NEC. The only issue is weather your AHJ will accept the one on the genset.


----------



## Bulldog1 (Oct 21, 2011)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> He has no idea what the hell he's talking about. Thank you.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum



His code reference about the disconnect is correct. It does say exactly what he says. The argument at this point is about weather the breaker on the genset qualifies as the disconnect.


----------



## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

Bulldog1 said:


> His code reference about the disconnect is correct. It does say exactly what he says. The argument at this point is about weather the breaker on the genset qualifies as the disconnect.


 NYS has adopted the 08 code. And since it has I have installed a handful of generators. I have never had any inspector fail me for not having an additional disconnect. The disconnect on the generator qualifies as service equipment disconnect.

Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


----------



## Bulldog1 (Oct 21, 2011)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> NYS has adopted the 08 code. And since it has I have installed a handful of generators. I have never had any inspector fail me for not having an additional disconnect. The disconnect on the generator qualifies as service equipment disconnect.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum






As I stated the argument at this point is how your AHJ sees it. The generator breaker only qualifies as the disconnect if your AHJ allows it.


----------



## woodchuck2 (Sep 18, 2009)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> All you need is 6 wires from ATS TO GEN if it's a Generac. They can be in the same conduit has the emergency power.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


I usually only run 5 because the ground is not needed. I also run the signal wires separately so there is no interference from the power cable from the generator. I believe Guardian recommends this if the feed is more than 30' anyway.

As far as where to install the ATS for a whole house set up i always mount it at the meter socket location. The meter socket feeds the ATS and from there to the original dis-connect or to the homes main panel. If there is no dis-connect then simply turning off the ATS and the main breaker on the Generator will kill the power in an emergency.


----------



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

woodchuck2 said:


> I usually only run 5 because the ground is not needed. I also run the signal wires separately so there is no interference from the power cable from the generator. I believe Guardian recommends this if the feed is more than 30' anyway.
> 
> As far as where to install the ATS for a whole house set up i always mount it at the meter socket location. The meter socket feeds the ATS and from there to the original dis-connect or to the homes main panel. If there is no dis-connect then simply turning off the ATS and the main breaker on the Generator will kill the power in an emergency.


 
What do you mean the ground is not needed?


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I think he means in with the control wires.


----------



## woodchuck2 (Sep 18, 2009)

Correct on that, i meant the ground for the signal wires, #0 circuit i believe. It probably should be there but found it works without it.


----------

