# motor reversing wiring with 6 supply leads



## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

Wiring diagram on the nameplate or inside the peckerhead?


----------



## CMP (Oct 30, 2019)

The old motor could of been a Wye Delta start. They can switch rotation between different modes. 

You would need to show us the motor tag for us to be able to tell.


----------



## gpop (May 14, 2018)

electricians are lazy so we did not run 6 wires for the fun of it. 

A picture of the control cabinet showing where the 6 wires are landed would be real helpful.


----------



## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

If there are 6 leads from the starter to the motor then it is most likely either a Y - ∆ starter or a 2 speed motor. 

In either case, starring 2 leads at the line side of the starter will make it go the other way.


----------



## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

micromind said:


> If there are 6 leads from the starter to the motor then it is most likely either a Y - ∆ starter or a 2 speed motor.
> 
> In either case, starring 2 leads at the line side of the starter will make it go the other way.


Or possibly a part winding/split start motor. An asphalt plant I worked at had every motor but two that was split started. All were timed with AB pneumatic timers running AB 709 2 OL starters. 

Back to the OP, a picture of the original motor tag is needed.


----------



## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

460 Delta said:


> Or possibly a part winding/split start motor. An asphalt plant I worked at had every motor but two that was split started. All were timed with AB pneumatic timers running AB 709 2 OL starters.
> 
> Back to the OP, a picture of the original motor tag is needed.


Forgot about that one.....part-winding start.


----------



## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

micromind said:


> If there are 6 leads from the starter to the motor then it is most likely either a Y - ∆ starter or a 2 speed motor.
> 
> In either case, starring 2 leads at the line side of the starter will make it go the other way.


im with ^him. 2 speed, or y/d start, and possibly also reversing. Your biggest clue, read the original motor tag very carefully, if the new tag doesnt match it, .... wrong motor


----------



## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

Almost Retired said:


> im with ^him. 2 speed, or y/d start, and possibly also reversing. Your biggest clue, read the original motor tag very carefully, if the new tag doesnt match it, .... wrong motor
> 
> also have you checked to see if more than one contactor and a timer is involved in starting? dead giveaway for y/d start
> 
> ...


----------



## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

@micromind you arent the first one iv seen use it, but you are the one im going to ask ...... How do you make that Delta symbol ?????


----------



## splatz (May 23, 2015)

gpop said:


> A picture of the control cabinet showing where the 6 wires are landed would be real helpful.


That's what I am wondering, how is the motor reversed, look at the starter, and ring out those six wires, see what leg is on what wire in F and R.



gpop said:


> electricians are lazy so we did not run 6 wires for the fun of it.


But they might have run six wires because they didn't think of a way to jumper things at the starter and do it with four until someone already ran the six...


----------



## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

Almost Retired said:


> @micromind you arent the first one iv seen use it, but you are the one im going to ask ...... How do you make that Delta symbol ?????


alt + j

∆


----------



## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

Alt Codes List of Alt Key Codes Symbols







www.alt-codes.net






But, ... I didn't see the code for "Delta"

And alt + J did not work for me, anyone know why?


----------



## Quickservice (Apr 23, 2020)

Almost Retired said:


> @micromind you arent the first one iv seen use it, but you are the one im going to ask ...... How do you make that Delta symbol ?????


Alt J doesn't work for me, but If you click on the emoji symbol below (Next to the little camera) you can scroll down to Symbols and find this one ---> 🔺

You would think that the ET Guru's would have a panel of all electrical symbols.


----------



## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

I found alt + 30 give this

▲


----------



## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

Almost Retired said:


> @micromind you arent the first one iv seen use it, but you are the one im going to ask ...... How do you make that Delta symbol ?????


I have a 6 year old Mad desktop, push and hold 'option' then push J. 

Option and z will make Ω

Option and o = ø, option, shift and O = Ø

Option and / = ÷

Option and m = µ

Option and v = √


----------



## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

micromind said:


> I have a 6 year old Mad desktop, push and hold 'option' then push J.


Correct to assume "Mac"?

Looks like a diff between windows and mac os's?

I have a windows system and no "option" key.


----------



## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

Alt + j is a mac thing.

Try Alt + 916


----------



## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

micromind said:


> I have a 6 year old Mad desktop, push and hold 'option' then push J.
> 
> Option and z will make Ω


Mac mini here, but with windows keyboard !
This keyboard it's the alt key, but it doesn't have the Mac option key.

Emtnut™


----------



## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

joe-nwt said:


> Alt + j is a mac thing.
> 
> Try Alt + 916


Does windows have one for this ---> 


----------



## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

splatz said:


> That's what I am wondering, how is the motor reversed, look at the starter, and ring out those six wires, see what leg is on what wire in F and R.
> 
> 
> But they might have run six wires because they didn't think of a way to jumper things at the starter and do it with four until someone already ran the six...





oldsparky52 said:


> I found alt + 30 give this
> 
> ▲





emtnut said:


> alt + j
> 
> ∆





emtnut said:


> alt + j
> 
> ∆


----------



## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

joe-nwt said:


> Alt + j is a mac thing.
> 
> Try Alt + 916


ö


----------



## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

oldsparky52 said:


> I found alt + 30 give this
> 
> ▲


▲ that works


----------



## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

†‡ŒŽ§³¿þ•±♂♦♪↕⌂


----------



## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

Russian spy


----------



## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

Double Delta Starting.
I have seen the Germans use this for load and speed control. They started and ran on one winding for idle then switched to both to get full speed and load. This got the rid of wind up time. Since motor was moving they could come up to speed fast, then drop down reducing machine wear. Blew my mind first time it was explained to me.


----------



## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

just the cowboy said:


> View attachment 158621
> 
> Double Delta Starting.
> I have seen the Germans use this for load and speed control. They started and ran on one winding for idle then switched to both to get full speed and load. This got the rid of wind up time. Since motor was moving they could come up to speed fast, then drop down reducing machine wear. Blew my mind first time it was explained to me.


sweet !!


----------



## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

This is an americanized redraw of the prints for a german machine at a mill where I used to work
3phase 2 Speed Fwd/Rev


----------



## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

mtnearth said:


> Has anyone ever seen an old school way of reversing a 3 phase motor in which 6 supply leads are brought right to the motor terminals? motor is 3phase 480v wye. However they had it wired originally worked on the old motor. Now the only replacement I can get is 240/480V wye with a different winding configuration so if I hook it up how the original was it just blows a fuse or two... Going to have to rewire the control to a more conventional way of reversing a 3phase motor but I just can't wrap my head around how it worked originally. Any insight out there?


On a wye delta starter whatever you do to the primary you must also do to the secondary. If you rewired it as delta only you just swap pairs like a 3 lead motor.

On most reversing wye delta starter they just add the reversing contactor pair or a two pole reversing switch between the breaker and the starter. Otherwise if you draw or our you will see you would have six contactors, not 5 since you would otherwise create a short across the wye.


----------



## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

just the cowboy said:


> View attachment 158621
> 
> Double Delta Starting.
> I have seen the Germans use this for load and speed control. They started and ran on one winding for idle then switched to both to get full speed and load. This got the rid of wind up time. Since motor was moving they could come up to speed fast, then drop down reducing machine wear. Blew my mind first time it was explained to me.


This is the same as a part-winding start. 

PWS motors have leads numbered T1, T2, T3, T7, T8, and T9, 4,5,6 and 10,11,12 are spliced internally.


----------



## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

Almost Retired said:


> This is an americanized redraw of the prints for a german machine at a mill where I used to work
> 3phase 2 Speed Fwd/Rev
> View attachment 158623


This is not a code-compliant drawing. 

There is only one O/L, for it to be compliant, there would need to be 2 O/Ls, one for each speed as they are different currents.


----------



## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

just the cowboy said:


> View attachment 158621
> 
> Double Delta Starting.
> I have seen the Germans use this for load and speed control. They started and ran on one winding for idle then switched to both to get full speed and load. This got the rid of wind up time. Since motor was moving they could come up to speed fast, then drop down reducing machine wear. Blew my mind first time it was explained to me.


Would this not be essentially the same as the old fashioned part winding/split start, with the additional option to drop out the second half as needed?


----------



## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

460 Delta said:


> Would this not be essentially the same as the old fashioned part winding/split start, with the additional option to drop out the second half as needed?


Not quite. That one had a low torque/speed and high torque/speed winding. Essentially 2 motors in one frame. They aren’t necessarily wired the same like it could be say 8 pole and 2 pole such as for a cooling tower. There are just two contactors instead of 3+.

PWS is different. This is exactly what it sounds like…energizing only part of the windings,


----------



## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

micromind said:


> This is not a code-compliant drawing.
> 
> There is only one O/L, for it to be compliant, there would need to be 2 O/Ls, one for each speed as they are different currents.


Yes I agree with you!
A) It is my redraw of german prints, easier for me and others to understand.
B) It is german prints for a german machine.
C) I posted it to illustrate one of the many reasons to have 6 wires going to the motor, I am not releasing it for construction LOL


----------



## mtnearth (Mar 30, 2021)

wow I have not checked back here until today. thanks for all the insight everyone! Its a yaw motor on a Bonus wind turbine from the late 80's. Only matching motor size paired with matching frame size we had order out of Germany. I'll update back when I've been back at this job to get 'er figured.


----------



## mtnearth (Mar 30, 2021)

micromind said:


> This is the same as a part-winding start.
> 
> PWS motors have leads numbered T1, T2, T3, T7, T8, and T9, 4,5,6 and 10,11,12 are spliced internally.


part winding start it was. the reversing controls were standard with the 3 supply leads. the other 3 leads were controlled by a brake contactor once the brake was released it ramped up to full speed. I'm not sure I can make the part winding work with the new motor as winding configuration is different. Going to try to just drop the part winding start and run on full windings from stop. Hopefully not blowing the overloads. it's an old windturbine I can only climb up in low winds. so gotta wait for the next wind window to test it out.


----------



## mtnearth (Mar 30, 2021)

is there anything on this nameplate the wouldve told me it was a pws motor?


----------



## gpop (May 14, 2018)

6 lead, single voltage and its a Y would give you a clue that its capable of being used as a part winding but most people probably wouldn't spot that with out looking at the starters.


----------



## gpop (May 14, 2018)

mtnearth said:


> part winding start it was. the reversing controls were standard with the 3 supply leads. the other 3 leads were controlled by a brake contactor once the brake was released it ramped up to full speed. I'm not sure I can make the part winding work with the new motor as winding configuration is different. Going to try to just drop the part winding start and run on full windings from stop. Hopefully not blowing the overloads. it's an old windturbine I can only climb up in low winds. so gotta wait for the next wind window to test it out.



Sounds like the first winding was to hold torque on the load so it doesn't spin backwards while the brake is released. As soon as the brake is released the second winding is engaged. 
Must be a big load or a real slow brake design.


----------

