# IBEW in Local News...



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Forwarding the impression to our youth that they can start out @ $19hr with zero experience is rather misleading Buzzed One....

~CS~


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

ibuzzard said:


> This is a nice story in todays local rag. It gives hope in todays (seemingly) post-industrial USA, that there are still valid and valuable choices for smart young people who cannot, or who choose not to attend college to become a cubicle dweller, or resign themselves to flipping burgers or pulling shots of espresso for a living.
> 
> http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/santacruz/ci_23996304/daniel-gilbertson-learning-trade-opens-doors
> 
> ...


Good job Dad....:thumbup:


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

My fellow coworkers have really gone out of their way to be supportive and help me in pursuing my goals. I can't say I would ever have expected the same treatment from even the best open shop I ever worked for.

Happy labor day.


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## ibuzzard (Dec 28, 2008)

chicken steve said:


> Forwarding the impression to our youth that they can start out @ $19hr with zero experience is rather misleading Buzzed One....
> 
> ~CS~



Hey, Nut-job: that is a sister local, with a much lower scale than my local's scale. My son started out as a first year, totally inexperienced apprentice at closer to 23-24 bucks an hour, over four years ago, so there is no misleading whatsoever. Aren't you getting behind on your alcohol consumption? 

Nearly all IBEW locals in the Bay Area, as well as the other trades, will have starting wages in the same ballpark, for inexperienced or experienced first year apprentices, according to their negotiated contracts. The Unionized trades always have offered among the best opportunities for people wanting to have meaningful work, and advance in their careers.

Having listened to many of the skinflint, tyranical small shop owners here, that seem to begrudge those who make a fair wage and want them to live at the same hard-scrabble existence as themselves, I am only more certain in the knowledge we have made the better choice. I think I might have been tempted to shoot my kids( just kidding!) had they chosen to work for some of you.

My 4th year apprentice son, working on the new S.F. 49'rs stadium, is likely earning more than you, Chicken Manure, and will probably be doing so at any point in your respective career paths. He is 23 years old.

If you'd care to apply in Local 332, applications are taken every first Wednesday of each quarter. They will evaluate and place you into the program at an appropriate starting wage according to your abilities. Enjoy your hamburger and potato salad....


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

> My son started out as a first year, totally inexperienced apprentice at closer to 23-24 bucks an hour, so there is no misleading whatsoever


Find me that in the _real world_ Buzzed One


~CS~


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

ibuzzard said:


> Hey, Nut-job: that is a sister local, with a much lower scale than my local's scale. My son started out as a first year, totally inexperienced apprentice at closer to 23-24 bucks an hour, so there is no misleading whatsoever. Aren't you getting behind on your alcohol consumption?
> 
> Nearly all IBEW locals in the Bay Area, as well as the other trades, will have starting wages in the same ballpark, for inexperienced or experienced first year apprentices, according to their negotiated contracts. The Unionized trades always have offered among the best opportunities for people wanting to have meaningful work, and advance in their careers.
> 
> ...


Wow Buzzard Kim Jong:laughing:, you wouldn't even have to tell us you're working for a union shop!!!!:laughing::laughing::laughing: Hopefully all your kids are not only in the trade but are currently employed!! I haven't though of trying the :gun_bandana::gun_bandana:method of persuasion with my kids yet!! What would have happened if your son wanted to be a hairdresser!!!!!:laughing:


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

ibuzzard said:


> Hey, Nut-job:....


I have found that steve the chicken is best ignored. He is too easy a target to be really good at trolling yet still wrong enough to get under one's skin.

Double A at best.

Nice article and I hope you are relaxing on this most festive of days.
( local 164 starting apprentice is 35% of journeyman - $17.14 ).

Keep the faith.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

I'm sure even the IBEW public relations people would agree celebrating _nepotism_ isn't what this day is about....

~CS~


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## rewire (Jul 2, 2013)

This looks like the year we will get Right To Work passed in our state so their will no longer be forced unionism and people will be able to chart their own destiny and reward will go to those who earn it.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Good....the American blue collars who built this country did it on _merit_, anything short of that on this day is a slap in the face to them

~CS~


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## ibuzzard (Dec 28, 2008)

chicken steve said:


> I'm sure even the IBEW public relations people would agree celebrating _nepotism_ isn't what this day is about....
> 
> ~CS~


Sorry, friend. Each of them went through the application process,were given a test, an interview, and a ranking based on these. You continue to portray this old stereotype, even though you ought to be intelligent enough to have rejected it. You know exactly what you are doing, all the more to your shame.

They were specifically NOT asked if they had a relative in the Union, this has been policy for years. In fact, they were encouraged to not mention this fact in the interview. Don't know about other locals.

They are, and have been steadily employed, in the real world, with no missed time. I have had two less than stellar years in my 26 years. I worked in both Iraq and Afghanistan to survive.

You live with your choices, my kids have blessed me by making good ones, and my job as father, though not totally complete, is certainly less important, since they are set in their career paths. Of course, we are guaranteed nothing in life, and if we were, what a boring, Soviet life, it would be.

Steve, if not happy with your life, instead of trolling and attempting to portray this pseudo-intellectual on-line persona you continue with, why not lay the bottle or other substances aside, and choose a new path?

Or not.... Crack another bottle open and wallow in your misery.


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## ibuzzard (Dec 28, 2008)

wendon said:


> What would have happened if your son wanted to be a hairdresser!!!!!:laughing:


Perish the thought!

Maybe B4T would have taken him on as an apprentice:thumbup:.....


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## Jbowyer24 (Apr 7, 2013)

Outside lineman starting wage for apprentice out here is 60% of 47.64 with an increase of 5% every 1000 hours. You do the math, it's a great living for a great career. And I know plenty of guys who have gotten into the trade without knowing someone on the inside, I've been on the list since June and I'm fairly confident that ill be able to get in without anyone on the inside as well.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

rewire said:


> This looks like the year we will get Right To Work passed in our state so their will no longer be forced unionism and people will be able to chart their own destiny and reward will go to those who earn it.


Coming from a "man" who about 1.5 years ago bragged about how great the union was and how well he was doing by having a union company :thumbup::laughing:


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

ibuzzard said:


> Steve, if not happy with your life, instead of trolling and attempting to portray this pseudo-intellectual on-line persona you continue with, why not lay the bottle or other substances aside, and choose a new path?
> 
> Or not.... Crack another bottle open and wallow in your misery.


_Moi a troll?_

I did not start a thread on LABOR day to use as a _vehicle_ to put down open shop labor

You folks really do have a _phenomenal _lack of respect

~CS~


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## rewire (Jul 2, 2013)

HackWork said:


> Coming from a "man" who about 1.5 years ago bragged about how great the union was and how well he was doing by having a union company :thumbup::laughing:


 more of your lies, I dropped out of the union three years ago and I never bragged about doing well as a union company .


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Gentlemen , this thread should be about the great job ibuzzared did raising his kids, not about our differences and all the bullchit that goes with it.

The man is a proud father and deserves praise from all of us on a job well done, he's got mine ..:thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

> Having listened to many of the skinflint, tyranical small shop owners here, that seem to begrudge those who make a fair wage and want them to live at the same hard-scrabble existence as themselves, I am only more certain in the knowledge we have made the better choice. I think I might have been tempted to shoot my kids( just kidding!) had they chosen to work for some of you


.



> My 4th year apprentice son, working on the new S.F. 49'rs stadium, is likely earning more than you, Chicken Manure, and will probably be doing so at any point in your respective career paths. He is 23 years old.



*I'm better than you because we make more $$$* seems to be your entire one upmanship shtick here

that, along with the usual litany of insults , because it's _all you got_....

well you just so happen to be in a forum with a lotta open shop owners 

i'm willing to wager most of us are doing _better than any of you_ ibew grunts , and we don't come here to brag about it

~CS~


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

HARRY304E said:


> Gentlemen , this thread should be about the great job ibuzzared did raising his kids, not about our differences and all the bullchit that goes with it.
> 
> The man is a proud father and deserves praise from all of us on a job well done, he's got mine ..:thumbsup::thumbsup:


It is pleasant that we can agree on something Harry. Nicely put.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

HARRY304E said:


> Gentlemen , this thread should be about the great job ibuzzared did raising his kids, not about our differences and all the bullchit that goes with it.
> 
> The man is a proud father and deserves praise from all of us on a job well done, he's got mine ..:thumbsup::thumbsup:


were it _only_ that , i'd agree Harry

i read the article, i asked a viable question 

this impersonator goes postal on me

~CS~


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

HARRY304E said:


> Gentlemen , this thread should be about the great job ibuzzared did raising his kids, not about our differences and all the bullchit that goes with it.
> 
> The man is a proud father and deserves praise from all of us on a job well done, he's got mine ..:thumbsup::thumbsup:


Well, I'm not sure this thread is really any evidence of his kids being well raised. They could be awful pieces of garbage. :laughing:

That said, it's nice to see "kids" making something of themselves. :thumbup:


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

chicken steve said:


> i'm willing to wager most of us are doing _better than any of you_ ibew grunts , and we don't come here to brag about it
> 
> ~CS~


How would you attempt to win that bet?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Celtic said:


> How would you attempt to win that bet?


Thinking back to what I used to make in the union with all the benefits, I don't think he knows what he is getting into.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Celtic said:


> How would you attempt to win that bet?


That would mean full disclosure Celtic

But even posting documents like K1's are meaningless , because being successful also means knowing how to work one's books to be just a tad in the black

So one's accrued assets would have to be taken into consideration

Not _easily attempted _

~CS~


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

HackWork said:


> Thinking back to what I used to make in the union with all the benefits, I don't think he knows what he is getting into.


I was afl cio TT driver when you were in diapers Hax.....


~CS~


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

chicken steve said:


> I was afl cio TT driver when you were in diapers Hax.....
> 
> 
> ~CS~


That doesn't change your bet, does it? :laughing:


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## rewire (Jul 2, 2013)

chicken steve said:


> I was afl cio TT driver when you were in diapers Hax.....
> 
> 
> ~CS~


 he is still in diapers :whistling2:


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

chicken steve said:


> That would mean full disclosure Celtic
> 
> But even posting documents like K1's are meaningless , because being successful also means knowing how to work one's books to be just a tad in the black
> 
> ...


That reads like some heavy doody back-peddling....

how did you intend to win your wager w/o posting pay stubs, mortgage deeds, vehicle titles, portfolio values, and that sort of thing?

What really is the measure of "better"?

..or were you so consumed with rage you blew a fuse?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

rewire said:


> he is still in diapers :whistling2:


Sometimes I just don't feel like getting up.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Celtic said:


> > That reads like some heavy doody back-peddling....
> 
> 
> more the reality of it
> ...


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

chicken steve said:


> were it _only_ that , i'd agree Harry
> 
> i read the article, i asked a viable question
> 
> ...


Okay I read it and I fail to see what your complaint is.

The IBEW started the kid out at $19 an hour, and what the IBEW Got in return is a productive Journeyman Electrician,in this case the IBEW is setting a standard that we all should follow union or not,the objective is to make sure that the electrical trade pays the wage of a professional and not treat apprentices as burger flippers like many open shops do, many of the guys that start out in an open shop are abused with minimum wage pay and treated like chit.

Those of us who run open shops should work harder to meet a higher standard of training our apprentices and paying them enough so they will stick with the trade, just because the minimum wage is $8 an hour does not mean we should only pay helpers that sum.

So your complaint is not valid in my opinion.

All of us should stick together pay our help top dollar and charge top dollar too.

This trade is a profession , not a low wage occupation that so many open shops try to make it.


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

HARRY304E said:


> Okay I read it and I fail to see what your complaint is.
> 
> The IBEW started the kid out at $19 an hour, and what the IBEW Got in return is a productive Journeyman Electrician,in this case the IBEW is setting a standard that we all should follow union or not,the objective is to make sure that the electrical trade pays the wage of a professional and not treat apprentices as burger flippers like many open shops do, many of the guys that start out in an open shop are abused with minimum wage pay and treated like chit.
> 
> ...


Well said Harry, I couldn't agree more! :thumbup:


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

HARRY304E said:


> > Okay I read it and I fail to see what your complaint is.
> 
> 
> it's not a complaint
> ...


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

chicken steve said:


> it's not a complaint
> 
> it's an observation
> 
> ...


I'm not sure what you mean...:blink:

Are you saying that paying a kid off the street $19 an hour is a disservice to guys who pay slave wages?


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Giving any kid the impression our trade hires off the street @19 is just plain _wrong_ Harry

Maybe in beverly hills, but for the most part _you, i, flyboy, or anyone else in this forum's open shop contingent _doesn't do this

To come here on this day, where so many of this nations teens are out of work, and perpetuate this is to give them the false hope of it being the norm

it is not....

~CS~


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## rewire (Jul 2, 2013)

HARRY304E said:


> Okay I read it and I fail to see what your complaint is.
> 
> The IBEW started the kid out at $19 an hour, and what the IBEW Got in return is a productive Journeyman Electrician,in this case the IBEW is setting a standard that we all should follow union or not,the objective is to make sure that the electrical trade pays the wage of a professional and not treat apprentices as burger flippers like many open shops do, many of the guys that start out in an open shop are abused with minimum wage pay and treated like chit.
> 
> ...


 Of course what happens in reality is when he becomes a productive journeyman he will find himself sitting on the bench because the contractor is paying 19/hr for a green helper.


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## uconduit (Jun 6, 2012)

rewire said:


> This looks like the year we will get Right To Work passed in our state so their will no longer be forced unionism and people will be able to chart their own destiny and reward will go to those who earn it.


Strong, blunt, and honest propaganda. This mentality was no doubt thought up by a rich man with the intent to concentrate wealth into the hands of the wealthiest. It's amazing that people actually believe that their unionized colleagues, who might make as much as twice as much after paying dues, are somehow wrong and that shareholders should have right to have all the profits while the workers are paid as close to zero as possible. Union membership must be, what, like 9% and you actually believe that's oppressing anyone?


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## rewire (Jul 2, 2013)

uconduit said:


> Strong, blunt, and honest propaganda. This mentality was no doubt thought up by a rich man with the intent to concentrate wealth into the hands of the wealthiest. It's amazing that people actually believe that their unionized colleagues, who might make as much as twice as much after paying dues, are somehow wrong and that shareholders should have right to have all the profits while the workers are paid as close to zero as possible. Union membership must be, what, like 9% and you actually believe that's oppressing anyone?


 No body should be forced into a union. It is that simple.


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## uconduit (Jun 6, 2012)

chicken steve said:


> Giving any kid the impression our trade hires off the street @19 is just plain _wrong_ Harry
> 
> Maybe in beverly hills, but for the most part _you, i, flyboy, or anyone else in this forum's open shop contingent _doesn't do this
> 
> ...


$600,000 is the average home price there -- and by average that might mean like a 1600 sq ft home built in the 1960s with moderate gang activity in the neighborhood. affluent homes are in the 1.5-3 million range and rich people homes are 10-million or more.


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## uconduit (Jun 6, 2012)

rewire said:


> No body should be forced into a union. It is that simple.


So you're saying that the government should take away business owners' and unions' right to make an agreement on making closed shops? Who would that even help? because it won't help the workers, I can tell you that much to be sure...


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

uconduit said:


> $600,000 is the average home price there -- and by average that might mean like a 1600 sq ft home built in the 1960s with moderate gang activity in the neighborhood. affluent homes are in the 1.5-3 million range and rich people homes are 10-million or more.


Moderate Gang activity ...:laughing:

Well said .:laughing:


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## rewire (Jul 2, 2013)

uconduit said:


> So you're saying that the government should take away business owners' and unions' right to make an agreement on making closed shops? Who would that even help? because it won't help the workers, I can tell you that much to be sure...


 Why should workers be denied employment based on non union affiliation? Why should I have to pay a union just to work? Dues money would be better spent on food for my table rather than go to support politicians I don't agree with.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

chicken steve said:


> Giving any kid the impression our trade hires off the street @19 is just plain _wrong_ Harry
> 
> Maybe in beverly hills, but for the most part _you, i, flyboy, or anyone else in this forum's open shop contingent _doesn't do this
> 
> ...


A majority of today's teens are unemployed because they've been brain washed into thinking that hard work does not pay and it is beneath them,then they go to college and come out with no usable skill because they've never worked even one job where they've gotten their hands dirty.

This is caused by poor parenting "Oh my kid should never have to do any of those job's "

They're thought in school that they must go to college and never learn anything about doing blue collar work because the schools teach them that those jobs are for losers.

They finish college and cannot get a professional job because they did not take useful courses that can get them into the workforce and have $100,000's worth of debt,then they move home with mom and continue the party they learned in college,some of them wake up and end up back in school to learn something useful.

The rest just end up losers with a college degree that is useless and end up in drug rehab..:laughing:


Again my point about post number 1 is the IBEW has the right idea,Pay the kids well off the bat and they will stick around and want to learn the trade and at the same time learn that hard work really does pay off.

Those of us running open shops take advantage of apprentices pay as little as possible and inside of a year when we've used them up they quit because we're teaching that hard work does not pay chit they move on to something that does pay then years down the road they need an electrical contractor they call us to do some work for them and they expect that electrical work is dirt cheap,after all we thought them that by screwing them when they tried out the trade 20 years ago.

The lesson here is if we piss through apprentices because we don't pay them well those people find their way and make good money and buy homes and tell their friends how cheap electrical work should be ,,they learned it firsthand .


Like I said before if we as electrical contractors want to make top dollar on all of our jobs then we must pay our greenest helpers a wage they can brag about , not bitch about.

$19 an hour does get you enough that you can bank a few bucks as your learning the trade,The object is to create a professional electrician who will own his own home and be able to build a family,we should never even consider paying anything less than 200% of the minimum wage.

Pay a professional wage and there will be much less turn over,this projects a professional image that the electrical trade should be projecting ,we should all be working together to raise the bar so we all will enjoy higher profits in the end. 

Moving away from this low wage mentality that prevails in the open shops is the way to go. 

Ever wonder why HVAC and Plumbers get paid more?

It's not by paying their green help $8 an hour that's for sure...

"Do as the Romans do",,,,,,,,,,,,"Do as the plumbers do"....


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

This is for the state of Texas but I'm sure it applies to other RtW states as well.

Labor union membership is voluntary in the State of Texas.

You cannot be required to join a labor union.

Your job does not depend upon you joining a labor union.

It is against the law for a worker to be fired because he or 
she chose to join or not to join a union.

Paying union dues is voluntary.

It is a crime for employers to condition employment on union
membership or the payment of union dues.

Texas is a right-to-work state.
Texas workers cannot be denied employment because of their membership or non-membership in a labor union. 

The Texas Labor Code 
protects workers from threats, force, intimidation, or coercion 
for choosing to either participate or not participate in a union.


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## Kryptes (Aug 6, 2013)

chicken steve said:


> Giving any kid the impression our trade hires off the street @19 is just plain wrong Harry
> 
> Maybe in beverly hills, but for the most part you, i, flyboy, or anyone else in this forum's open shop contingent doesn't do this
> 
> ...


We are a non union company that pays kids outta high school $19.25 a hour to start, maybe CS should move somewhere decent that pays. We still make a lot of scratch after paying them out.


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## J_Captain (Jul 14, 2013)

She should apply to the wiremen apprenticeship. The Data/Comm guys on the jobsite are always joking about having to retake the apprenticeship to be wiremen. We run all their conduit and often run their cable tray. Pretty much all they do is install some equipment and do terminations. There job looks pretty boring to me and we keep taking more and more of their work. We do all the fire alarm and security also.


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## s.kelly (Mar 20, 2009)

rewire said:


> Why should workers be denied employment based on non union affiliation? Why should I have to pay a union just to work? Dues money would be better spent on food for my table rather than go to support politicians I don't agree with.


If your company wanted to get the benefits offered by the Chamber of Commerce, yet not pay dues to the organization, how long do you think they would laugh before they told you no?

Same story. RTW is misnamed poorly disguised union busting pure and simple.

Right to business (RTB) no forced COC dues. Who can't get buhind someone having the right to a business?


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

chicken steve said:


> Find me that in the real world Buzzed One
> 
> ~CS~


Our lowly rat shop does. We look for the best of the best apprentices and the pay reflects that. There are opportunities out there for kids with brains and work ethic.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Has anyone tried googling pay rates here? 

If your company can afford to hire_ zero _experience at what is beyond the norm, more power to you! you must have the _'pot 'o gold'_ contract ! 

You must be flooded with applicants!

~CS~


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## Natan (May 27, 2013)

rewire said:


> No body should be forced into a union. It is that simple.


Then those people who opt out of the Union should not get the benefits, but they still get them, they are FREE RIDERS.

All in all and at the end of the story the Union, as an association/group of workers is more convenient than the single individual even though you have to pay for it, because everybody alone counts zero and has no bargaining power face to big corporations/employers and this is valid for all industries.

People are just brainwashed to think competition is always good, but this is the jungle where the strongest wins and the strongest is not you, no matter how good and how many skills you have, but corporations/employers are the winners.

This is a rush to the bottom and even though you earn a top wage, in the end that is at the expense of all the others who get minimum or average wage and not necessarily because you are better than them.

Some people just do not understand the whole thing, they look at what comes into their pockets.


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## Natan (May 27, 2013)

chicken steve said:


> yet no open shop hires kids with _ zero experience _@ $19hr Harry


Why shouldn't it be $19/hr or even $25/hour if that is the right wage to have decent life ?????

They way things are does not mean they are right. Use your brain. Of course employers pay the least, if they could they would pay $1 / hour. This is the reason why Unions were founded, workers grouped up to stand up for their rights and for what is FAIR and a decent wage is just fair.

What is the point to work if you cannot make a living out of it? If there is no difference why would someone work? 

They are so assholes that they pay you little but little enough to give you the illusion and to get you into debt so they can make even more money out of you.

Right-to-work is bulls**t and those workers who support it sold the others for their personal interest and are living at others' expenses.

It is a rush to the bottom.


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## Natan (May 27, 2013)

chicken steve said:


> Giving any kid the impression our trade hires off the street @19 is just plain _wrong_ Harry
> 
> Maybe in beverly hills,


That Union that pays $19/hour is not in Beverly Hills, let's be precise. Here it is not giving the impression it is telling the truth and the TRUTH is that THAT LOCAL pays $19. Period.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Natan on post 52 if you could edit out this


HARRY304E said:


> It will show tha chicken Steve said that and not me..


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## Natan (May 27, 2013)

HARRY304E said:


> They finish college and cannot get a professional job because they did not take useful courses that can get them into the workforce and have $100,000's worth of debt


And why is that ? Because the "system" (big corporations and politicians lobbied=corrupted by those corporations) wants a well educated (of course at their own expense=debt) CHEAP workers, who can perform at low wages.

And in order to have them cheap you have to have MANY of them and to have them compete one another.

A mass of people fighting each other to have some little money to get by, not to have a LIFE, a future, good perspectives and a career.

The average white collar is like to old factory worker with a much better education, but not with a better wage for sure. Wages decreased in the years, that is proven.

Factories were NOT shut down, they were MOVED to China with the complicity of the politicians/Gvt paid by big corporations and this was done to make even more profits. And the story that this way products are cheaper for consumers in the US, is bulls**t. And what ("cheaper") products can you buy if you do not have a job, because you were laid off, maybe by one of those factories (big corporations).

And paying the Chinese $1 / hour is UNFAIR in general and it is also unfair competition if we talk about business.

And they are so cheap because they do not have any Union to fight for them/their rights, there are no Unions in China, that should explain something.


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## Natan (May 27, 2013)

HARRY304E said:


> Natan on post 52 if you could edit out this


Sorry, my mistake. Corrected now. My apology.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Natan said:


> Sorry, my mistake. Corrected now. My apology.


No apology needed you're a good man...:thumbup:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Natan said:


> And why is that ? Because the "system" (big corporations and politicians lobbied=corrupted by those corporations) wants a well educated (of course at their own expense=debt) CHEAP workers, who can perform at low wages.
> 
> And in order to have them cheap you have to have MANY of them and to have them compete one another.
> 
> ...


Indeed' you're spot on...:thumbsup:


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## Natan (May 27, 2013)

HARRY304E said:


> you're a good man...:thumbup:


Thank you Harry, you too. 

It is just sad that some people do not understand the consequences of the ideas they support, they are the first losers - no offense to anyone.


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## Natan (May 27, 2013)

HARRY304E said:


> Indeed' you're spot on...:thumbsup:


I AM man. I got it all. 

I wish everybody could understand what is really going on.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Oh i think _we do _Natan

Because we could also say the unions myopic sense of economy _fueled_ the captains of corporatism to outsource & globalise by creating disparity

We didn't see you lot protest Nafta , or address VAT in any appreciable unison, and you all went down Obamacare road as well. 

And we can usually find your reps suckin' up to every politician that's stumped to sell America out 

You _claim_ to be for the working man, yet make every effort to parse _those of us that point it out_ & aren't a member of your club with all manner of put downs

Right on up and including this OP , dripping in greed and gluttony ,broadcasting _'AMERICA IS ALL IN MY BACK POCKET'_ in the middle of this country's worse depression while arguably being responsible for it.....












One hellova way to make friends and gain support from your potential brothers!

~CS~


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

chicken steve said:


> Oh i think _we do _Natan
> 
> Because we could also say the unions myopic sense of economy _fueled_ the captains of corporatism to outsource & globalise by creating disparity
> 
> ...


I am glad you have found someone to blame. It must make your life easier.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Who would you like to_ blame_ BB? lazy kids?  ~CS~


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

chicken steve said:


> Who would you like to_ blame_ BB? lazy kids?  ~CS~


Probably greed. But then again, if I was smart, I wouldn't be an electrician either.


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## phil20 (Apr 30, 2013)

Unions pay a fair liveable wage if it was up to my boss I would get half that. if not he would find someone off the street for $10 an hour. We also get health ins look around all big companies are stopping health ins by cutting everyones hours to part time ( 28 hrs )


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## Natan (May 27, 2013)

chicken steve said:


>


The statistics you posted exactly proves and shows what I said. Weaken the Union and wages will decrease. But corporations call it flexibility, competition, free market.


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