# Pool Pump Short or GFCI trip?



## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

Got a call to see why 2 pole GFCI in house (100 ft away) was tripping when pool pump turned on. We kept dividing in half til found out it was the pool pump that trips it. So, my job was done. BUT, I would like to know a few other things. Firstly,* how do you know* if it's the gfci tripping v.s. a hard short? I've had many gfci's short out and this was a bit louder and forceful. Happened really quick too. They had a ground rod driven right next to pool pump hooked up. Could that *have anything to do with it* if it was gfci tripping? Do pool pumps short out often? Don't work around pools much....


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Cletis. Disconnect the pump and turn on the gfci. If it doesn't trip then the pump needs replacing.


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*Verified*

Yes Yes Yes. I was there in 20 min. Had 240 v with load disconnected from pump. everything powered up fine. I know this is where our jobs end but I was more interested in the above items. Why Why Why...


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Cletis said:


> Got a call to see why 2 pole GFCI in house (100 ft away) was tripping when pool pump turned on. We kept dividing in half til found out it was the pool pump that trips it. So, my job was done. BUT, I would like to know a few other things. Firstly,* how do you know* if it's the gfci tripping v.s. a hard short? I've had many gfci's short out and this was a bit louder and forceful. Happened really quick too. They had a ground rod driven right next to pool pump hooked up. Could that *have anything to do with it* if it was gfci tripping? Do pool pumps short out often? Don't work around pools much....


A GFCI trips so fast because it is doing it's job at such a very low current, and it does so almost noiseless unless you are at the receptacle...or breaker. A hard short will give a definite hum for a few cycles or so and then trip the breaker.


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*hummm...*

It was a little of both. It was very quick. I'd say instantaneous, forceful, and possibly arcs (not sure). It tripped more like a hard short. How do you know difference like and overload v.s. a short?? 

could the ground rod be related to a gfci trip?


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Get a clamp on ammeter with an instantaneous feature. See what current is drawing on startup. It might be high even on a good motor, so compare it to the trip curve of the breaker and see where it falls.

-John


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*Cost*

How much them cost? It wouldn't stay on long enough to record?


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Cletis said:


> It was a little of both. It was very quick. I'd say instantaneous, forceful, and possibly arcs (not sure). It tripped more like a hard short. How do you know difference like and overload v.s. a short??
> 
> could the ground rod be related to a gfci trip?


If a circuit breaker is overloaded it can actually still work for a long time in the overload condition. 
A short circuit will cause the breaker to trip very fast in just a few cycles.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

You don't know for sure but you could use an ohmmeter and see something. It sounds like you think it is a dead short-- it may be but what does it matter. A leakage to ground will trip the gfci but if you see a flash I suspect dead short.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

I'm not sure why it matters. If it holds with the motor disconnected, you need at least a new motor. With pools, if the thing has some age on it, they're better off with a new motor&pump assembly.


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*short*

most shorts i've noticed that are 100ft away take a 1/4-1/2sec or so to kick out. This was immediated. I turn my head when I trip breakers and think I saw flash (not really sure). The motor read 35 ohms across the 240 volt terminals which I'm not sure what that means or if that's normal?


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Cletis said:


> most shorts i've noticed that are 100ft away take a 1/4-1/2sec or so to kick out. This was immediated. I turn my head when I trip breakers and think I saw flash (not really sure). The motor read 35 ohms across the 240 volt terminals which I'm not sure what that means or if that's normal?


As MD said, if the circuit does not trip when the motor is disconnected...change the motor.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Cletis said:


> most shorts i've noticed that are 100ft away take a 1/4-1/2sec or so to kick out. This was immediated. I turn my head when I trip breakers and think I saw flash (not really sure). The motor read 35 ohms across the 240 volt terminals which I'm not sure what that means or if that's normal?


You would check the leads to ground.


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*job*

yeah. I know. that's where our job ends. Any comments on the ground rod someone drove next to pump and had hooked up with a number 8 Cu conductor?


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Cletis said:


> yeah. I know. that's where our job ends. Any comments on the ground rod someone drove next to pump and had hooked up with a number 8 Cu conductor?


Not necessary and in fact may be a bad idea.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Cletis said:


> yeah. I know. that's where our job ends. Any comments on the ground rod someone drove next to pump and had hooked up with a number 8 Cu conductor?


Do you think that that is unsafe?


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*yep*

that's what I was thinking. It was like guys in factorys driving ground rods next to machines. This would be a parallel path I'm guessing. terminal to ground was 0 on one terminal and infinity on other btw


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Cletis said:


> that's what I was thinking. It was like guys in factorys driving ground rods next to machines. This would be a parallel path I'm guessing. terminal to ground was 0 on one terminal and infinity on other btw


Sounds like a dead short


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Cletis said:


> that's what I was thinking. It was like guys in factorys driving ground rods next to machines. This would be a parallel path I'm guessing. terminal to ground was 0 on one terminal and infinity on other btw


I know that you know this but you do know what the purpose of a ground rod is...right?


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*yes*

yes I do. Why would you drive an isolated rod at a pool pump though?


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Cletis said:


> yes I do. Why would you drive an isolated rod at a pool pump though?


Because people believe that driving a rod will get rid of stray voltage. It will do nothing. Now if there is a panel out at the pool then a rod needs to be driven for the panel.


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*Even worse*

Well, it looks like they built this pool with no permit, so I'm guessing possibly not even a bonding grid? Let's say they didn't put in a bonding grid and there was a short that wouldn't clear could the ground rod carry the current back to it's source (which just happens to be the pool in between pump and house) through the pool?? Possibly electrocuting swimmers? This would be with ground rod at pump v.s. just using the egc at pump?


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Dont overthink this ground rod. Many people (some electricians included) think the lug on the pump motor is supposed to be connected to a driven electrode.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

I always remove the load from the circuit breaker first. If the the GFCI breaker resets obviously it's not the breaker. Next disconnect from the pool pump to examine the branch circuit. If those are both good it's the pump!


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Cletis said:


> could the ground rod carry the current back to it's source (which just happens to be the pool in between pump and house) through the pool??


Quick answer-- NO... it will do nothing to clear a fault. The egc will do that.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Dennis why would I need to install a ground rod at an outdoor panel for pool equipment?

what is the code ref?


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> Dennis why would I need to install a ground rod at an outdoor panel for pool equipment?
> 
> what is the code ref?


250.32..... Separate structure. If the panel is on the house that is a different animal.


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*?*

If you set a sub panel up at pool equiptment area....you need to set a ground rod there?? :001_huh:


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Cletis said:


> If you set a sub panel up at pool equiptment area....you need to set a ground rod there?? :001_huh:


Only if the panel is at a remote area not on the main structure. If you install a post out in the yard by the pool to mount the panel on then it needs a rod or 2.


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## jhall.sparky (Jun 14, 2011)

Cletis said:


> most shorts i've noticed that are 100ft away take a 1/4-1/2sec or so to kick out. This was immediated. I turn my head when I trip breakers and think I saw flash (not really sure). The motor read 35 ohms across the 240 volt terminals which I'm not sure what that means or if that's normal?


http://www.pumpmotors.com/literature/documents/Servicebrochure.pdf

heres a refer!


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*News to me*

What about sub panels in remote garage on 4 wire feeders ?? Never set a rod for those??


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Cletis said:


> What about sub panels in remote garage on 4 wire feeders ?? Never set a rod for those??


Well you are in violation.


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*Wow*

Wow. We have pretty tough inspectors and they have never enforced and/or mentioned that one. I guess it's the jaywalking of offenses. I've asked most of our inspectors on that and they say ONLY at main disconnect.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Cletis said:


> Wow. We have pretty tough inspectors and they have never enforced and/or mentioned that one. I guess it's the jaywalking of offenses. I've asked most of our inspectors on that and they say ONLY at main disconnect.


What is your inspectors name and where in Ga are you from?


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*Code*

250.32

This?

Q4. Grounding Remote Building and Structures
NEC 250.32 allows the grounded (neutral) circuit conductor supplying a second building to be bonded to the equipment grounding conductor at the remote building. grounding electrode system of the second building. If the two buildings are electrically connected via a conductive path, such as the shielding of a coax cable or water pipe, this would provide an alternate path for neutral current to flow during normal operation (like resistors in parallel). Is this a trivial concern? Do you know of any problems that can arise from such a situation such as GFI relays in the main service? All those whom I have discussed this with have dismissed it as trivial. They site residential houses connected via a common water line. I would like to hear your comments.

A4. The practice of bonding the grounded (neutral) conductor to the equipment enclosure is only permitted by 250.32(B)(2) where 

(1) an equipment grounding conductor is not run with the supply to the building or structure, and

(2) there are no continuous metallic paths bonded to the grounding system in both buildings or structures involved, and

(3) ground-fault protection of equipment has not been installed on the common ac service, and

(4) the size of the grounded conductor shall not be smaller than the larger of:

That required by 220.22 (maximum unbalanced neutral load), or

That required by 250.122 (equipment grounding conductor size).

I'm really not from Georgia. Sounds like a state cletis would come from. :laughing:


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

That is old stuff. The 2008 demands an egc to be run with the conductors but you still needed a GEC. I am not sure what you are trying to state with that post.

I believe cletis may be from Ga. but you sound like you come from Chicago area--


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

*No*



Cletis said:


> I'm really not from Georgia. Sounds like a state cletis would come from. :laughing:



Wow, knock me over with a feather. Here I was thinking you were really an electrician from Georgia. You totally had me going there. :laughing:


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*Darn*

I am slick like that. Your not disappointed are you? I might live right around corner from you, you never know. 

Well, our president of our inspection bureau is on board of IAEI and served as president in our region for 10 yrs plus other various credentials. If always says I only enforce the NEC, no more , no less. If he wanted ground rods at remote buildings in SUB PANELS he would have made his inspectors enforce it. For some reason he did not and I dont' know why?


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Cletis said:


> I am slick like that. Your not disappointed are you? I might live right around corner from you, you never know.


If you do, let's meet up sometime. Two trolls are better than one. :thumbsup:


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## CraigV (May 12, 2011)

Cletis said:


> I am slick like that. Your not disappointed are you? I might live right around corner from you, you never know.
> 
> Well, our president of our inspection bureau is on board of IAEI and served as president in our region for 10 yrs plus other various credentials. If always says I only enforce the NEC, no more , no less. If he wanted ground rods at remote buildings in SUB PANELS he would have made his inspectors enforce it. For some reason he did not and I dont' know why?


 As stated earlier, this depends on code cycle. 2008 and newer, separate structure subpanels require their own GES and an EGC with the feeder, and isolate the neutral. Pre-2008, and the EGC gets vague depending upon existance of metal connections between the buildings.


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