# Zip tying to plumbing pipies



## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

I see this done alot but I know i would fail if i did so... I fail twice for zip tying EGC to water main....


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

Julius793 said:


> Have been told that I can not zip tie my wires to plumbing pipes.
> 
> 1. Is that true? (code sec.)
> 2. If so which pipes does it apply to?


300.11(B)



captkirk said:


> I see this done alot but I know i would fail if i did so... I fail twice for zip tying EGC to water main....


I did too :whistling2:


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## Julius793 (Nov 29, 2011)

Celtic said:


> 300.11(B)
> 
> :


Can you explain that?


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

Julius793 said:


> Can you explain that?


Which part?



2011 NEC said:


> 300.11 Securing and Supporting.
> (B) Raceways Used as Means of Support.
> Raceways shall be used only as a means of support for other raceways, cables, or nonelectrical equipment under any of the
> following conditions:
> ...


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## Julius793 (Nov 29, 2011)

Celtic said:


> Which part?


Well where does it say anything about plumbing pipes?


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

Julius793 said:


> Well where does it say anything about plumbing pipes?


Right at top....



> Raceways shall be used only as a means of support for other raceways, cables, or nonelectrical equipment under any of the
> following conditions:
> 
> (1) Where the raceway or means of support is identified for
> the purpose


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## Julius793 (Nov 29, 2011)

Celtic said:


> Right at top....


Article 100 has a different definition of raceway?


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

Julius793 said:


> Article 100 has a different definition of raceway?


No it doesn't...



> Raceway.
> An enclosed channel of metal or nonmetallic
> materials designed expressly for holding wires, cables, or
> busbars, with additional functions as permitted in this
> ...


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## Julius793 (Nov 29, 2011)

Celtic said:


> No it doesn't...


Then I misunderstood you what your saying is that plumbing pipes aren't identified for the use?


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

Celtic said:


> 300.11(B)


I don't believe 300.11(B) means that at all. It is talking about using a raceway in and of it's self as support for another raceway or cabling. It says nothing about any other type of pipe be used for support of a raceway.

I'm not saying whether plumbing pipe is ok or not for supporting raceways, only that that article doesn't mean that.


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## Julius793 (Nov 29, 2011)

Little-Lectric said:


> I don't believe 300.11(B) means that at all. It is talking about using a raceway in and of it's self as support for another raceway or cabling. It says nothing about any other type of pipe be used for support of a raceway.
> 
> I'm not saying whether plumbing pipe is ok or not for supporting raceways, only that that article doesn't mean that.


Thank you nice to have someone that agrees with me


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

Julius793 said:


> Can you explain that?


Originally Posted by 2011 NEC
300.11 Securing and Supporting.
(B) Raceways Used as Means of Support. 
Raceways* shall* be used* only* as a means of support for other raceways, cables, or nonelectrical equipment *under any of the
following conditions:*

*(1)* Where the raceway or means of support is identified for
the purpose

*(2)* Where the raceway contains power supply conductors
for electrically controlled equipment and is used to support
Class 2 circuit conductors or cables that are solely
for the purpose of connection to the equipment control
circuits

*(3)* Where the raceway is used to support boxes or conduit
bodies in accordance with 314.23 or to support luminaires
in accordance with 410.36(E)


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## k_buz (Mar 12, 2012)

Plumbing pipe isn't a raceway, so that code rule doesn't apply. I will agree that you cannot do that, but I have yet to find the specific code rule.


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## LARMGUY (Aug 22, 2010)

What are you tie wrapping? Fire wires? THHN? NM? MC?


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

Little-Lectric said:


> I don't believe 300.11(B) means that at all. It is talking about using a raceway in and of it's self as support for another raceway or cabling. It says nothing about any other type of pipe be used for support of a raceway.
> 
> I'm not saying whether plumbing pipe is ok or not for supporting raceways, only that that article doesn't mean that.


...it gives 3 specific ways to use raceways as supports, any other method is unacceptable, but you believe what you want.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

360max said:


> Originally Posted by 2011 NEC
> 300.11 Securing and Supporting.
> (B) Raceways Used as Means of Support.
> Raceways* shall* be used* only* as a means of support for other raceways, cables, or *nonelectrical equipment* *under any of the
> ...


...the* 'nonelectrical equipment'* kills the plumbing pipe idea.


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## k_buz (Mar 12, 2012)

True, but that is saying non electrical cannot be supported by raceways. Not the other way around.


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## TooFarFromFenway (Jul 15, 2011)

Julius793 said:


> Have been told that I can not zip tie my wires to plumbing pipes.
> 
> 1. Is that true? (code sec.)
> 2. If so which pipes does it apply to?


I would think, (Granted, in my limited knowledge) 320.30(a) would be applicable. 

I think the problem is the fact that plumbing pipes do move often, and possibly the vibration of the pipes could damage the NM. 

But, I could be wrong. I would think that this would be more applicable than raceways.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

90.5(a )


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## Julius793 (Nov 29, 2011)

TooFarFromFenway said:


> I would think, (Granted, in my limited knowledge) 320.30(a) would be applicable.
> 
> I think the problem is the fact that plumbing pipes do move often, and possibly the vibration of the pipes could damage the NM.
> 
> But, I could be wrong. I would think that this would be more applicable than raceways.


Well not all of them vibrate and besides I don't buy that vibration will damage wire. Have you ever seen special vibration wire for motors?


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## TooFarFromFenway (Jul 15, 2011)

Julius793 said:


> Well not all of them vibrate and besides I don't buy that vibration will damage wire. Have you ever seen special vibration wire for motors?


No, but I would also assume that inside a motor, they wire would be secured so as to prevent that. But, maybe I'm wrong. 

But I assure you, almost all water pipes vibrate, and can damage NM.


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## Julius793 (Nov 29, 2011)

TooFarFromFenway said:


> No, but I would also assume that inside a motor, they wire would be secured so as to prevent that. But, maybe I'm wrong.
> 
> But I assure you, almost all water pipes vibrate, and can damage NM.


What kind of damage do you think it will do?


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

Hey are you all journeymen or what? If I were a simple business owner and I saw you strapped wire to my plumbing, first thing I'd say is, "you aren't worried about condensation on your wires?" NEC is one thing. Common sense says you can't strap wire to the hot lines at least.


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## chewy (May 9, 2010)

kaboler said:


> Hey are you all journeymen or what?


No but we may have thought _you_ were.


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## TattooMan (Feb 10, 2012)

Julius793 said:


> Well not all of them vibrate and besides I don't buy that vibration will damage wire. Have you ever seen special vibration wire for motors?


I think the principle behind it is if the sprinkler guys have to remove pipe for some reason you are SOL. Your stuff will be cut, or removed in some way. If you are lucky the least they would do is leave your wire dangling with no support. Around here we are not allowed to even have our wire close let alone zip tie to it. Not so much a specific code I don't think as it is common sense


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Sorry Celtic, in my opinion 300.11 does not apply at all to plumbing pipes.

That said I have no doubt at all that in the plumbing codes are rules that say 'plumbing pipes shall not be used as a mean of support for other systems' or some such wording.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Lot's of talk here but nobody has posted anything that says you can't zip tie wire to plumbing pipes. :no:


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## Julius793 (Nov 29, 2011)

BBQ said:


> Sorry Celtic, in my opinion 300.11 does not apply at all to plumbing pipes.
> 
> That said I have no doubt at all that in the plumbing codes are rules that say 'plumbing pipes shall not be used as a mean of support for other systems' or some such wording.


So an electrical inspector can fail you
On the basis of plumbing code?


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Julius793 said:


> So an electrical inspector can fail you
> On the basis of plumbing code?


Well, per the law, likely no.

In the real world likely yes.


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## chewy (May 9, 2010)

In any case its hack.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

chewy said:


> In any case its hack.


That's debatable.


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## chewy (May 9, 2010)

electricmanscott said:


> That's debatable.


My personal opinion of course but I wouldnt do it or allow it in my home. I cant think of any situations where it would be the best option, only the lazy option.


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## Julius793 (Nov 29, 2011)

chewy said:


> My personal opinion of course but I wouldnt do it or allow it in my home. I cant think of any situations where it would be the best option, only the lazy option.


Well think of a commercial/industrial setting many times it can be hard to find anything to secure it to.


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## Theriot (Aug 27, 2011)

Here they fail electrical for not having duct on the vent lights


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## chewy (May 9, 2010)

Julius793 said:


> Well think of a commercial/industrial setting many times it can be hard to find anything to secure it to.


I use tray and conduit in an industrial setting and add catenary wires to those 2 for commercial work.


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## Julius793 (Nov 29, 2011)

chewy said:


> I use tray and conduit in an industrial setting.


Well I use mc a lot and takes quite a bit of time if there is nothing to secure it to.


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## chewy (May 9, 2010)

Julius793 said:


> Well I use mc a lot and takes quite a bit of time if there is nothing to secure it to.


How is the plumbing secured then? Just do the same with conduit.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

chewy said:


> How is the plumbing secured then? Just do the same with conduit.


You've never been above the ceiling in a commercial building have you? Particularly a bio tech building.


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## 347sparky (May 14, 2012)

chewy said:


> My personal opinion of course but I wouldnt do it or allow it in my home. I cant think of any situations where it would be the best option, only the lazy option.


Only thing I can see is tywraping the bare copper ground that runs to the water meter in a house to make it neat in appearance. And yes, using 2 water pipe clamps for the bonding jumper across the water. Most of the time the water meter is at floor level and the plumbers usually come out of the meter straight up to the floor joist with no support.


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

I'm with celtic and chewy...you can tell yourself whatever you want, its still lazy......and you are leaving it up to the ahj to make the call...plus how dumb would you feel ripping it out after you fail...?

Fwiw if I'm charging a customer 1000 bucks to run an oven line, i would feel like a looser zipping it to a steam line.

Just run a piece of pipe........but i would be willing to bet if your ok with it your probably not getting a permit anyway.

Scott im kind of surprised at you, someone that takes great measures to do a post light without ripping up the lawn, is ok with using plumbing lines...

And don't get me wrong here, I'm far from being an anal retentive ec but that one is too much even for me...


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

captkirk said:


> I'm with celtic and chewy...you can tell yourself whatever you want, its still lazy......and you are leaving it up to the ahj to make the call...plus how dumb would you feel ripping it out after you fail...?
> 
> Fwiw if I'm charging a customer 1000 bucks to run an oven line, i would feel like a looser zipping it to a steam line.
> 
> ...


I'm not saying I'd do it, although I would in some cases, I'm saying I don't see anything that specifically prohibits it.


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

Plumbing lines arent listed as supporting means for electrical lines..


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

captkirk said:


> Plumbing lines arent listed as supporting means for electrical lines..


Is a 2x4?


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

I think its ironic that some of the same cats that are ok with this are the same people that flip out over lining up plate screws, ground down on outlets.


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

electricmanscott said:


> Is a 2x4?


Yes, isnt that a running board or part of the structure...


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

captkirk said:


> Plumbing lines arent listed as supporting means for electrical lines..


 There may be exceptions, but by and large nothing we use has to be listed as a means of support.

I don't agree with using other trades work to support our stuff. Relying on ducting, plumbing, sprinkler pipes, etc, to hold up our stuff is pretty hack, but I'm not sure it's an NEC violation.

-John


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

I'm only going by what i have failed for whilst on my own and working for other ec's.. i dont have to stick my hand in a fire over and over to know its hot.......plus i see it all the time, it starts with one cable, zipped to a steam line and over the years it grows into an ugly mess......wires zipped to wires that are zipped to wires on a steam line......


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## KGN742003 (Apr 23, 2012)

The OP was about a wire not a cable. If it is the GEC or an ECG I think it is fine, and in all likelyhood the most workmanlike install method. I can't think of another instance where you would run a wire without some sort of raceway.


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## TattooMan (Feb 10, 2012)

Julius793 said:


> Well think of a commercial/industrial setting many times it can be hard to find anything to secure it to.


Shoot a rod. Stop being lazy. I have NEVER seen a pipe as the only place to secure anything


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## chewy (May 9, 2010)

electricmanscott said:


> You've never been above the ceiling in a commercial building have you? Particularly a bio tech building.


Of course I have, Im not sure what you mean by bio tech.

Ive worked in hospitals both private and public, aircraft hangars, aircraft simulator building, petfood factory, research and testing facility, military bases, international port and all manner of straight office fitouts with suspended ceilings.


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## Techy (Mar 4, 2011)

TattooMan said:


> Shoot a rod. Stop being lazy. I have NEVER seen a pipe as the only place to secure anything



It seems like every building I work in anymore, no shooting after 7:30a.


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## Julius793 (Nov 29, 2011)

KGN742003 said:


> The OP was about a wire not a cable. If it is the GEC or an ECG I think it is fine, and in all likelyhood the most workmanlike install method. I can't think of another instance where you would run a wire without some sort of raceway.


I was actually asking about both wire and cable.


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## Julius793 (Nov 29, 2011)

TattooMan said:


> Shoot a rod. Stop being lazy. I have NEVER seen a pipe as the only place to secure anything


Yes in a normal situation that's what I would do, my question was in a situation were i do just zip tie it can I get red tagged?


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## k_buz (Mar 12, 2012)

Julius793 said:


> Yes in a normal situation that's what I would do, my question was in a situation were i do just zip tie it can I get red tagged?


You never really said what type of cable/wire you are running...if it was a romex, I say you'd fail...if a #4 ground, I'd say you have a 50/50 shot of passing.


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

360max said:


> ...it gives 3 specific ways to use raceways as supports, any other method is unacceptable, but you believe what you want.


I don't have to believe, just read.
You have it backwards, it's not talking about using other means to support a raceway. It's talking about using a raceway as support. for something else or support of another raceway.

Again I'm not saying it's ok to tie a cable or wire or raceway to a plumbing pipe, only the code article that was posted doesn't apply to that.


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## Liqued (Aug 4, 2010)

I'm not around my code book but is there not a code with a minimal distance requirement from other utilities for only conductors, I believe in the 310 section?


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

The NEC article that applies here is 250.64 Grounding Electrode Conductor Installation.

(B) Securing and Protection Against Physical Damage.
Where exposed, a grounding electrode conductor or its enclosure
shall be *securely fastened to the surface* on which it
is carried. Grounding electrode conductors shall be permitted
to be installed on or through framing members. A 4
AWG or larger copper or aluminum grounding electrode
conductor shall be protected if exposed to physical damage.
A 6 AWG grounding electrode conductor that is free from
exposure to physical damage shall be permitted to be run
along the surface of the building construction without metal
covering or protection if it is securely fastened to the construction;
otherwise, it shall be protected in rigid metal
conduit (RMC), intermediate metal conduit (IMC), rigid
polyvinyl chloride conduit (PVC), reinforced thermosetting
resin conduit (RTRC), electrical metallic tubing (EMT), or
cable armor. Grounding electrode conductors smaller than 6
AWG shall be protected in RMC, IMC, PVC, RTRC, EMT,
or cable armor.


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

I was called out to a home in feb...ho hired a local EC to change out panel as part of the sale agreement...total hack job...one of the the things the bozo did was zip several hr's to the water and gas lines... home had unfinished basement cir 1950 home...wtf lazy mf'r..I had to move the new se as well was only 6" from upper window....wtf..I drilled her out 4 sets of holes took me maybe 30mins...to drill'em...then I had to repull and splice his mess...fix the grnd...joke guy said he was licensed too...inspector said no he aint...wow...7hrs there...I dont zip ty very much...I hate when guys do it in panels...thank you...now I have to cut em to fix/change something...if you zip ty to pipes I call it hack...period...be a pro drill dah hole or put up a runner...period


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## Cujo (Feb 4, 2012)

Ive strapped teck90 to certain types of pipes in mechanical rooms because there was no reasonable soloution. I would never strap to copper lines. I wouldn't tie wrap to pipes typically, just like how I dont strap conduit/wire to ductwork. I would also consider strapping to EMT if there was no other reasonable option.

I sometimes use tee bar hangers to strap the AC/MC for light drops.


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## cultch (Aug 2, 2011)

When running mc overhead and not much to strap to we always drop a piece of ceiling grid wire (marked as the ec's wire) and batwing it.

I consider (cause that's what I was taught) strapping and dressing are two different things. You have your requirments in strapping per nec and local. In between there if you decide to throw a ziptie around anything (usually loosely in that case) it's fine. To perhaps get it off the grid for example in an exsisting situation or just to keep it from sagging in a spot.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

Julius793 said:


> Have been told that I can not zip tie my wires to plumbing pipes.
> 
> 1. Is that true? (code sec.)
> 2. If so which pipes does it apply to?


I'll concede that 300.11(B) is not the correct citation.

Maybe more information is needed here..
Who is telling you cannot zip tie what type of wire to what type of plumbing pipe?


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## 04gixx6 (Mar 18, 2012)

In my VERY limited experience, an inspector here told us we couldn't tye wrap MC to the plumbing supports, pipes, or sprink guys pipes and supports. There were a lot of cases where it would have been easier for sure.


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## tkb (Jan 21, 2009)

360max said:


> ...the* 'nonelectrical equipment'* kills the plumbing pipe idea.


That means you can't support a plumbing pipe from an electrical raceway, not the other way around.

It is probably in the plumbing code.

We have to follow the other codes as well as the NEC.
Just like we as electricians always try to enforce 110.26 on to the other trades.


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## tkb (Jan 21, 2009)

cultch said:


> When running mc overhead and not much to strap to we always drop a piece of ceiling grid wire (marked as the ec's wire) and batwing it.
> 
> I consider (cause that's what I was taught) strapping and dressing are two different things. You have your requirments in strapping per nec and local. In between there if you decide to throw a ziptie around anything (usually loosely in that case) it's fine. To perhaps get it off the grid for example in an exsisting situation or just to keep it from sagging in a spot.


Are you attaching your ceiling grid drop wire to the grid as well?
See 300.11(A).


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## TattooMan (Feb 10, 2012)

Techy said:


> It seems like every building I work in anymore, no shooting after 7:30a.


Really? Majority of our buildings is no shooting BEFORE 7:30


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## Techy (Mar 4, 2011)

I'm mostly working in occupied Class A office buildings.


Get it done quickly, dont make a mess, and godforbid dont make any noise


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## chewy (May 9, 2010)

Techy said:


> I'm mostly working in occupied Class A office buildings.
> 
> Get it done quickly, dont make a mess, and godforbid dont make any noise


Yeah, years of that attitude means when you pop open a ceiling tile your looking at a freaking abortion. Its really not that much of an effort to shoot up a cat wire if you need to.


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## TattooMan (Feb 10, 2012)

Techy said:


> I'm mostly working in occupied Class A office buildings.
> 
> Get it done quickly, dont make a mess, and godforbid dont make any noise


Yep. Im in Cisco Systems office buildings now. Pretty much the same philosophy except we still have to make it look clean


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## cultch (Aug 2, 2011)

tkb said:


> Are you attaching your ceiling grid drop wire to the grid as well?
> See 300.11(A).


Yes I am. Tied at the top and tied to the grid and marked as ec's wire. Used to be we'd spray paint our wire so as to tell the difference. 1st time I've ever used these yellow things that clamp onto the grid so you can tie to them instead of the actual grid. I like it. Makes popping tiles in and out easier.

These wire supports are the best tho...


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

cultch said:


> When running mc overhead and not much to strap to we always drop a piece of ceiling grid wire (marked as the ec's wire) and batwing it.
> 
> I consider (cause that's what I was taught) strapping and dressing are two different things. You have your requirments in strapping per nec and local. In between there if you decide to throw a ziptie around anything (usually loosely in that case) it's fine. To perhaps get it off the grid for example in an exsisting situation or just to keep it from sagging in a spot.


So do you drop a support wire every 6 feet? Doesn't MC have to be supported every 6 feet in an accessible area? 330.30 (A) (B) (C)


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## cultch (Aug 2, 2011)

wendon said:


> So do you drop a support wire every 6 feet? Doesn't MC have to be supported every 6 feet in an accessible area? 330.30 (A) (B) (C)


Usually just batwing to the wires that are supporting the lights unless something else comes up I pop in an extra if needed. In a rehab situation I can almost always find an old anchor that can be used. New work strapping to the wires supporting the lights usually gets you through.


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## drakejohnson (Jul 25, 2013)

To make the pipe the hanger is holding raise up, simply push the shaft up. Each click you hear will raise the pipe 1/4 of an inch. To lower the pipe the hanger is holding. The hinge on the Mount will automatically lock back, engaging the teeth between the shaft and the Mount. Hold the Shaft straight with one hand. Using the thumb on your other hand, depress the thumb lever on the Mount down. A little bit of force is needed to depress the thumb lever. Moving the lever down will disengage the teeth between the Mount and the shaft. Pull the shaft down with the hand holding the shaft to the desired height, and release the thumb lever on the Mount. The teeth will engage in their new position. Sometimes, a little downward pressure is needed to make theteeth fully engage. This can be achieved by slightly pulling the shaft down. This will lock the teeth in the in the new position.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

I really don't like when the teeth engage my shaft.


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