# Replacement Bath fans ...no patching?



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

We pretty much use Panasonic fans however I am not sure if you can use them in the middle of the joist.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Here is some info on it http://business.panasonic.com/FV-08-11VF5.html


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

What about replacement parts? We have a parts bandit here who carries good stock for Broan/Nutone and Softaire. All the guts come in a package if that's what you want.


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## Greg Sparkovich (Sep 15, 2007)

99cents said:


> What about replacement parts? We have a parts bandit here who carries good stock for Broan/Nutone and Softaire. All the guts come in a package if that's what you want.


Thanks for the suggestion and Yep, sometimes I do that. 
...Although I have only done this with low-end innards.

In this case, I am going to be replacing 3 smaller fans with bigger ones, so I know I will have to remove the old ones and cut some of the ceiling to fit the larger casing.
So, for this job, I want to find a fan that is easy to mount in an existing ceiling.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Why re-rough ANYTHING ?

These puppies aren't exactly turbo-jets.

The industry has settled on to various 'frame sizes' -- same as NEMA.

Get new guts to replace the old guts, DONE. :thumbsup:



You wouldn't happen to suffer from electrician's OCD ?


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

The hole for a fan should be big enough to scab some extra lumber up there. Some 2 X 4 and framing screws should work. Even if you fasten the 2 X 4 to the drywall, that's only a few screw holes to fill.

I like the Softaire fans. They have the flange. I wonder if you could screw a couple of 2 X 4's to the drywall and then attach the fan through the flange holes from below? Never tried it. I'm thinking lay the 2 X 4 flat on the drywall.


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## Greg Sparkovich (Sep 15, 2007)

telsa said:


> Why re-rough ANYTHING ?
> 
> These puppies aren't exactly turbo-jets.
> 
> ...


:no:

I have seen lots of rehabs where contractors cut every corner to make a dime. Having a small fan in a powder room is fine, but what about the master suite? Should I just replace their dinky 80 CFM fan parts? That is not my business model!

*I* don't live there -so I don't know what it's like to take a shower there -*they* do. And my customers don't have to live to my standards anyhow.

I have no objection to saving customers money or telling them that they don't need something (I've certainly talked enough people out of a 200amp service), but unless there is a reason, I do what my customer wants. It's one reason they like me and I'd guess why I'm booking into December.


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## Greg Sparkovich (Sep 15, 2007)

99cents said:


> The hole for a fan should be big enough to scab some extra lumber up there. Some 2 X 4 and framing screws should work. Even if you fasten the 2 X 4 to the drywall, that's only a few screw holes to fill.
> 
> I like the Softaire fans. They have the flange. I wonder if you could screw a couple of 2 X 4's to the drywall and then attach the fan through the flange holes from below? Never tried it. I'm thinking lay the 2 X 4 flat on the drywall.


Thanks; I don't know the softaire fans. Do you like them better than Panasonics (I've heard good things but I don't remember ever installing one)?

I want to avoid adding lumber if I can though. I wish there was a frame like a fan-fast (Those threaded braces that fit between joists so you can hang a ceiling fan)...


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Greg Sparkovich said:


> Thanks; I don't know the softaire fans. Do you like them better than Panasonics (I've heard good things but I don't remember ever installing one)?
> 
> I want to avoid adding lumber if I can though. I wish there was a frame like a fan-fast (Those threaded braces that fit between joists so you can hang a ceiling fan)...


Softaire/Reversomatic is the best bang for the buck. Panasonic is overpriced. Check your dimensions, though. SA-90S is my go-to upgrade fan. It's 8" high. Super quiet, quieter than Panasonic (with apologies to Dennis).

http://www.reversomatic.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/SA-90S-new1.pdf


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

what do you do about the undersized ducting? Im noticing a lot of the newer fans are calling for 6" duct, while most of the existing fans are 4" and some are only 3".


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

99cents said:


> Softaire/Reversomatic is the best bang for the buck.* Panasonic is overpriced.* Check your dimensions, though. SA-90S is my go-to upgrade fan. It's 8" high. Super quiet, quieter than Panasonic (with apologies to Dennis).
> 
> http://www.reversomatic.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/SA-90S-new1.pdf



Ya think ?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

telsa said:


> Why re-rough ANYTHING ?
> 
> These puppies aren't exactly turbo-jets.
> 
> ...


It doesn't work like that. Last week my customer bought the same exact exhaust fan that they had and wanted me to install it. But when I opened the old one, it was a different motor and completely different method of mounting it. To make things worse, the box of the new one was about 1/2" larger and I had to open up the hole that had wood framing around it.

There are no standards.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

telsa said:


> Ya think ?


Even the Broan garbage is overpriced in comparison.


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## Greg Sparkovich (Sep 15, 2007)

drspec said:


> what do you do about the undersized ducting? Im noticing a lot of the newer fans are calling for 6" duct, while most of the existing fans are 4" and some are only 3".


If I don't go to do an on-site estimate (and I avoid that like bad beer), then I ask the customer to find out by taking a picture at least. If the person feels comfortable taking the cover off, then I get a pic of the label. If I can match the model, I'll know what to expect and buy accordingly. I have had customers who bought the wrong fan before contacting me and I just tell them what to get after I've looked inside (Or I can get it myself). I charge extra for that visit according to how much of a pain it was to get there. I'm sympathetic that they tried, but that's the downside of them choosing without paying or just asking for my expertise.
I don't mind doing some planning for my customers while I watch Walking Dead. I'd rather save time by getting info than make money when they make a mistake -nobody ever feels good about that and I never want a customer to feel like I'm not doing enough for them.

That's kind of why I'm posting about this...
I don't do enough fans to feel like I'm 100% on game with this, so I'd like to eliminate some of the guess work on installations. I figured since it's 3 fans at the same property, I'd get a little education.


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

Greg Sparkovich said:


> If I don't go to do an on-site estimate (and I avoid that like bad beer), then I ask the customer to find out by taking a picture at least. If the person feels comfortable taking the cover off, then I get a pic of the label. If I can match the model, I'll know what to expect and buy accordingly. I have had customers who bought the wrong fan before contacting me and I just tell them what to get after I've looked inside (Or I can get it myself). I charge extra for that visit according to how much of a pain it was to get there. I'm sympathetic that they tried, but that's the downside of them choosing without paying or just asking for my expertise.
> I don't mind doing some planning for my customers while I watch Walking Dead. I'd rather save time by getting info than make money when they make a mistake -nobody ever feels good about that and I never want a customer to feel like I'm not doing enough for them.
> 
> That's kind of why I'm posting about this...
> I don't do enough fans to feel like I'm 100% on game with this, so I'd like to eliminate some of the guess work on installations. I figured since it's 3 fans at the same property, I'd get a little education.


You still didn't answer my question. Do you use reducers for 4" fans when 3" duct is existing or replace the ducting? 

If you don't upsize the ducting then upgrading the fan is pointless imo.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Some the panasonics come a with a nice old work bracket that works well between joists. At least in drywall, I rarely end up with any patching. These often come with a 3 to 4 reducer. Broan/Nutone has the same bracket with some of their higher end units. The panasonic I prefer is the shallow model without the normal 4 inch end, not the oval exhaust. Before these retrofit brackets, I would cut the opening a little larger than needed, test fit, then screw some strapping or plywood strips to the drywall. Put the fan up and and screw through the holes in the flange through the drywall and into the wood strips.


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## Anathera (Feb 16, 2016)

I love the nutone old work/new work fan at HD it is listed for a 4 or 6 inch duct and comes with either wings or stud mounting. runs around $120. As far as duct size goes I've been told repeatedly to not install a fan on a duct that is too small it leads to fan noise and reduces the lifespan and voids the warranty. The only thing I'm terribly concerned about is the noise it makes when it comes to a customer's home.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Have a link to those? I looked and I see the Ultragreen ones with the bracket, but haven't seen anything with old work wings.


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## Anathera (Feb 16, 2016)

InVent Series 80 CFM Ceiling Exhaust Bath Fan

http://thd.co/1MPkgt8


I think this is the one I have been using but I'd have to put my hands on it to be sure


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Watched the video and it showed the new work tabs being folded over and mounting screws going through the insides into a joist. Many of the small ones are mounted to the joist so that would work in a lot of situations.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

drspec said:


> You still didn't answer my question. Do you use reducers for 4" fans when 3" duct is existing or replace the ducting?
> 
> If you don't upsize the ducting then upgrading the fan is pointless imo.


Doesn't everyone use the adapter/reducer?


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## B-Nabs (Jun 4, 2014)

Panasonic whisper ceiling has a flange on the bottom so you could use the method of laying wood on the drywall and screwing through. Also has a 6 - 4" reducer. Also can be had for under $100 if you know where to look, so imo not really overpriced.

If a 3" duct is encountered it should be re-run as far as I'm concerned.


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## Anathera (Feb 16, 2016)

As long as it is listed for a reducer I will use it I think they have a version of that nutone that does 3 or 4 inch but I've seen more than a few guys create their own reducer and it always makes more fan noise


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## Greg Sparkovich (Sep 15, 2007)

drspec said:


> You still didn't answer my question. Do you use reducers for 4" fans when 3" duct is existing or replace the ducting?
> 
> If you don't upsize the ducting then upgrading the fan is pointless imo.


OK, to be clear:
I tell them they either have to get the fan I recommend, or pay to have the ducting replaced -including drilling a new hole to the exterior.

I have also had this issue when the fan is not actually vented at all.

HOWEVER, since we all know that the hardest part of the installation is running the vent to the outside, I use that as a caveat in my estimate and tell my customers that I can't see what is in their ceiling until the fan is removed. So I tell them they must be prepared for the possibility.

For the record, I have never seen 3" duct work.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

We replace bath fans all the time. Usually upgrade to Panasonics or Deltas. If it ain't mounted to a joist, the Panasonics are big enough that it doesn't take much lumber to scab it out to not have to patch anything. Sometimes you have to trim the flange back a bit to slide the whole unit up in though, at least with the heat/fan/lights since they don't have the removable side where the vent is.


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## sparky80 (Aug 1, 2016)

I like to use the Broan RB series for change outs they come in 80 or 110CFM. As others have said the Panasonics will do the trick also.


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## Kyrton (Feb 2, 2016)

For replacement ease only, I recommend the Broan/Nutone RB series

MY new favorite fans are DELTA BREEZE exhaust fans. DC motors - ramps up rpm if there is too much static pressure in duct so you get true CFM movement. Duct is clogged or motor locks up, it shuts power off. Soft start, very quiet and priced lower than the big guys. Can get them with - lights, 50-150cfm, low as 0.3 sones, motion activated, humidity sensing, low profile, blue tooth speaker, most motors use less than 10watts. 

Problem I run into. High efficiency exhaust fans - using 0.3amps or less to not work with most digital wall timers. I often use wall timers as an easy up-sale to people with children. These new fans don't pull enough current for the controller to work properly. Unless you can find a timer that requires a neutral.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Kyrton said:


> For replacement ease only, I recommend the Broan/Nutone RB series
> 
> MY new favorite fans are DELTA BREEZE exhaust fans. DC motors - ramps up rpm if there is too much static pressure in duct so you get true CFM movement. Duct is clogged or motor locks up, it shuts power off. Soft start, very quiet and priced lower than the big guys. Can get them with - lights, 50-150cfm, low as 0.3 sones, motion activated, humidity sensing, low profile, blue tooth speaker, most motors use less than 10watts.
> 
> Problem I run into. High efficiency exhaust fans - using 0.3amps or less to not work with most digital wall timers. I often use wall timers as an easy up-sale to people with children. These new fans don't pull enough current for the controller to work properly. Unless you can find a timer that requires a neutral.


If you're concerned about the fan be left on because it's so quiet, I sometimes tie it into the shower light. That might solve your problem with the timer as well.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

Kyrton said:


> For replacement ease only, I recommend the Broan/Nutone RB series
> 
> MY new favorite fans are DELTA BREEZE exhaust fans. DC motors - ramps up rpm if there is too much static pressure in duct so you get true CFM movement. Duct is clogged or motor locks up, it shuts power off. Soft start, very quiet and priced lower than the big guys. Can get them with - lights, 50-150cfm, low as 0.3 sones, motion activated, humidity sensing, low profile, blue tooth speaker, most motors use less than 10watts.
> 
> Problem I run into. High efficiency exhaust fans - using 0.3amps or less to not work with most digital wall timers. I often use wall timers as an easy up-sale to people with children. These new fans don't pull enough current for the controller to work properly. Unless you can find a timer that requires a neutral.


Ive had no problems with panasonics amd deltas on Hubbell and Levition digital fan timers. Well, at least the redesigned leviton fan timers. The original batch had a ludicrously high failure rate. The Hubbells have been problem free.


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