# Joining the IBEW



## Signal1 (Feb 10, 2016)

Can't answer #1. I am not IBEW. 

#2, I can tell you that many members of my local (and many others) have accepted the fact that the democrats have abandoned the working class, and I think change is coming, but it's still a long road ahead.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Signal1 said:


> #2, I can tell you that many members of my local (and many others) have accepted the fact that the democrats have abandoned the working class, and I think change is coming, but it's still a long road ahead.


No matter how bad the democrats get, they won't be as bad for the union as the union busting republicans. If you want to joint he union, you have to accept that. Opting out from the PACs is a good way to hurt your union career, so in the end it won't be worth it to join int he first place. 

That union is a service that you use for your benefit. It's similar to an accountant or a lawyer. You pay them to provide a service that returns your investment +plus. You don't tell them where to donate the money that you give to them, and you don't involve your own personal politics. 

You pay them and you reap the benefits. It ends there.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Hold your nose if you have to, but follow the money :thumbsup: 



Inside, you can salt for the libertarian party or WTFE. 



Opportunity is short. 



Worst case once demand returns to the normal levels, the guys that didn't come in through their indentured servant / inlaws / political favor route are shunned and laid off / travelling. But you can always quit. Always a good chance that they'll hold their nose and put up with it because they need productive people to do the actual work while their inlaws, appointees, and slackers jack around. 



I don't think I have one single customer I'm entirely politically aligned with. I have a few that I know, that they know my politics, and they think my politics are repellent, but they hold their nose and hire me because they like top notch work. 



If there is one take home lesson from our current political ****storm, for me, it is: 



Money is more important than ideology, philosophy, demagoguary, polarity, gravity, and J. Walter Mitty. 



TAKE THE MONEY


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I kept my mouth shut for the 15 years that I worked in the union and still keep it shut for the last 7 that I still pay dues. Being a rabble rouser will only hurt you.


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## Signal1 (Feb 10, 2016)

HackWork said:


> No matter how bad the democrats get, they won't be as bad for the union as the union busting republicans. If you want to joint he union, you have to accept that. Opting out from the PACs is a good way to hurt your union career, so in the end it won't be worth it to join int he first place.
> 
> That union is a service that you use for your benefit. It's similar to an accountant or a lawyer. You pay them to provide a service that returns your investment +plus. You don't tell them where to donate the money that you give to them, and you don't involve your own personal politics.
> 
> You pay them and you reap the benefits. It ends there.



When I make the above statement about the democrats, the first thing people say is "So you think the republicans have your back??"

My answer is no, nobody does.

The average middle class worker has very little if any representation in government, at any level.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> No matter how bad the democrats get, they won't be as bad for the union as the union busting republicans. If you want to joint he union, you have to accept that. Opting out from the PACs is a good way to hurt your union career, so in the end it won't be worth it to join int he first place. .



Here I completely disagree, I don't think either party is good for labor and working people, union or not. This is why I don't support either party. I think the Democrats are extremely skilled at exploiting unions and union members for political gain and certainly reciprocate in kind with preferential treatment (one hand washes the other.) But in the grand scheme I think Democrats are just as harmful, if not more, than Republicans. At least Republicans are honest about their anti-union sentiment. Democrats will say they are pro-union all the while supporting and implementing anti-union laws, ideologies and movements (like open borders, to name only one.) Nobody is going to convince me that flooding this country with cheap, semi-skilled labor via open borders and sanctuary states/cities is good for the labor movement, yet Democrats are the engine driving that.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Signal1 said:


> When I make the above statement about the democrats, the first thing people say is "So you think the republicans have your back??"
> 
> My answer is no, nobody does.
> 
> The average middle class worker has very little if any representation in government, at any level.


I agree that neither party is looking out for the union. But we can't ignore what the right has done and has been open about for a long time. So you are never going to get the general membership to change their minds. Nor should anyone try. Again, I see it like trying to change my accountant's political leaning, it's not something that I care to even attempt.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MTW said:


> Here I completely disagree, I don't think either party is good for labor and working people, union or not. This is why I don't support either party. I think the Democrats are extremely skilled at exploiting unions and union members for political gain and certainly reciprocate in kind with preferential treatment (one hand washes the other.) But in the grand scheme I think Democrats are just as harmful, if not more, than Republicans. At least Republicans are honest about their anti-union sentiment. Democrats will say they are pro-union all the while supporting and implementing anti-union laws, ideologies and movements (like open borders, to name only one.) Nobody is going to convince me that flooding this country with cheap, semi-skilled labor via open borders and sanctuary states/cities is good for the labor movement, yet Democrats are the engine driving that.


So why don't you go try to change the 750,000 member's minds. And opt out of the PAC donations. Good idea, pee wee.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> So why don't you go try to change the 750,000 member's minds. And opt out of the PAC donations. Good idea, pee wee.



I don't recall using any personal insults in this discourse, yet here you are with them. 

So you're saying all 750,000 members are liberals and support Democrats? I hardly believe it. 

Why don't you just go back to ignoring me? Please and thank you.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MTW said:


> I don't recall using any personal insults in this discourse, yet here you are with them.
> 
> So you're saying all 750,000 members are liberals and support Democrats? I hardly believe it.
> 
> Why don't you just go back to ignoring me? Please and thank you.


Why don't you spend more time trying to get laid than trying to figure out how to stop 4 cents being taken out of your paycheck?


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> Why don't you spend more time trying to get laid than trying to figure out how to stop 4 cents being taken out of your paycheck?


Ahh, I knew you couldn't control yourself. 

So fundamentally the union is a left wing organization that is one of the many engines and power centers driving the Democrat party, and it is irreformable.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MTW said:


> Ahh, I knew you couldn't control yourself.
> 
> So fundamentally the union is a left wing organization that is one of the many engines and power centers driving the Democrat party, and it is irreformable.


Yes, and so is my lawyer. Who gives a crap, other than you? If you went out and bought french fries and really wanted ketchup on them, would you not use any if they only had Heinz? Cause you're a man of great conviction, right? 

Should we execute them all as communists?


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

splatz said:


> Worst case once demand returns to the normal levels, the guys that didn't come in through their indentured servant / inlaws / political favor route are shunned and laid off / travelling. But you can always quit.


I'm of the belief that anyone who is organized in is always a second class citizen, no matter how many red carpets they are rolling out these days for non-union workers to join. I completely understand why they would treat people who came in through their program (or were beneficiaries of political influence, but that's another story altogether.) I also say good for them for trying to undo some of the damage they have done to their reputation and (and membership numbers) over the years. It may be too little, too late. Time will tell. But I think you're right - when things get slow again (and they will), the shunning will take place.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> Yes, and so is my lawyer. Who gives a crap, other than you? If you went out and bought french fries and really wanted ketchup on them, would you not use any if they only had Heinz? Cause you're a man of great conviction, right?


It's simple - with the IBEW you're directly supporting the Democrats and left wing causes via dues payments. How much % of a bottle of Heinz ketchup goes to the left wing causes? Some? None? I certainly don't know because it's not generally disclosed. And for the record, I don't buy Heinz ketchup. :wink:




> Should we execute them all as communists?


You're still stuck on that one, huh? I thought you were pretending that I didn't exist. Did your OCD become too unbearable to ignore me? :biggrin:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

My fantasies don’t involve you or your existence.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> My fantasies don’t involve you or your existence.


Excellent. So I can assume you'll go back to ignoring me, then? :thumbup:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MTW said:


> Excellent. So I can assume you'll go back to ignoring me, then? :thumbup:


Just because I don’t respond to your blatant trolling, like constantly repeating “hi hacky“, it doesn’t mean that I’m ignoring you completely.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

The union up here is full of all kinds of different people and I assume it’s the same there. Some members are right leaning politically, some are left. Some swing with their spouse, some are single. Some believe the planet is round, some believe it’s flat. To each their own. 

A portion of our dues stays at the local, and another portion goes to international IBEW. What they do with that cash is out of my hands and I do not have the option to not pay it. 

The one thing we all enjoy is a great wage, an amazing pension, plenty of free training and a benefit package.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

eddy current said:


> The union up here is full of all kinds of different people and I assume it’s the same there. Some members are right leaning politically, some are left. Some swing with their spouse, some are single. Some believe the planet is round, some believe it’s flat. To each their own.
> 
> A portion of our dues stays at the local, and another portion goes to international IBEW. What they do with that cash is out of my hands and I do not have the option to not pay it.
> 
> The one thing we all enjoy is a great wage, an amazing pension, plenty of free training and a benefit package.


There are certain regulations as to what could be done with dues money. So many locals take money directly out of the paycheck for PAC donations. You can opt out of this. But it’s often only a few cents and it’s not worth being ostracized in the local.


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## tjb (Feb 12, 2014)

You guys make threads boring and stupid. 

Joining my local was one of the best decisions I ever made. I’m not in a position to hang my own shingle. My hourly rate immediately went up by 33%. I got full health dental and eye for my whole family absolutely free. Two pensions and an annuity absolutely free. And access to the work of a dozen contractors, rather than being married to the one I was previously employed by. 

If I don’t like a certain job, and have a good relationship with the contractor or foreman, I can ask for a clean lay-off, and out in on whatever other job on the call list that I want to. 

Yeah, some of my money goes to dues, and apprentice schooling, and an amount ends up in politicians’ hands. But that’s pennies compared to the other benefits of my package, and all of it comes out BEFORE my paycheck. So I never see it. When I worked for an open shop, ALL of my crappy insurance and crappy 401K so-called retirement (if they even offered any) came out of my hourly rate, out of my paycheck. In the union, it all comes out BEFORE my hourly rate, before my paycheck. And it’s still a lot higher than an average open shop rate. It’s a no-brainer. 

And whoever said it was absolutely right: neither major party cares about middle class workers, union or non. I’ve got way bigger fish to fry than to care about pennies of my package that come out before my hourly rate going into some PAC or stuff. Get real.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

HackWork said:


> There are certain regulations as to what could be done with dues money. So many locals take money directly out of the paycheck for PAC donations. You can opt out of this. But itâ€™️s often only a few cents and itâ€™️s not worth being ostracized in the local.


We don’t have that option here. Our dues are fixed and no parts of it can be opt out of.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

It’s more like getting a refund.


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## HertzHound (Jan 22, 2019)

As far as our regular working dues, I don’t think any of it goes to politics. Working dues keeps the lights on and salaries paid. Then there’s a target fund and PAC fund. I don’t remember the actual name, but it is basically a PAC fund. They used to sell shirts and do 50/50s at the meeting to raise money. Not a lot of money was coming in compared to other unions, so it was said that labor disputes favored the other unions because they donated more. 

Eventually it came to a vote to take a percentage from the check to go to this fund. I don’t even know what it is because it’s probably a half a percent. It passed but the member has the option to “opt out”. They still take the money out of the check, but at the end of the year you can get it back. There have been arguments that they call out the names of those who opt out at the general meetings to embarrass the member. But because the opt out request goes through the executive board, it’s automatic that it’s in the minutes of the E-board, and that gets read at every general meeting. You know, transparency and all. It’s only a few names. 

I don’t know the numbers but probably more money goes to local politics than national. Now the international dues that we pay, maybe half goes to the international pension. The rest pays the international salaries and bills. Some of that may go to politics? I forget if there was something that was signed that said you agree that they can use that money for politics. I think it was Bush Jr that pushed the “paycheck deception act”. I have no issues how they use my money. Maybe I’m Naive, but I think it goes to the greater good.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> Just because I don’t respond to your blatant trolling, like constantly repeating “hi hacky“, it doesn’t mean that I’m ignoring you completely.



Hi Hacky. :vs_cool:


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## HertzHound (Jan 22, 2019)

As far as being treated different because you didn’t do their apprenticeship, that will vary. Since Massachusetts has mandatory apprenticeship for all, maybe it’s different than NJ where it’s not required? For the most part the prejudice comes from not “paying your dues”. But that’s not even really correct. If that’s the case, a guy that worked Non-Union, then went through the CW/CE program, then changes over to the “A” program, has paid more “Dues” than anyone. They’re the ones that went the hard route. 

I don’t think my local would take anyone in as a Journeyman, no mater how good times are. What makes that fair, is that’s the way it’s pretty much always been. If anyone is going to get a yellow ticket they’re going to do the apprenticeship. They may organize in as a CW/CE, so they won’t have to take a cut in pay. But they will have to do three years of CW school and then change over to third year A apprentice. So a total of six years instead of five, but you wouldn’t take a cut in pay. The difference here may be because the state itself has no apprenticeship requirements, so organized guys, more than likely, had no other apprenticeship.

During the last boom they did take a lot of guys in as “journeyman in training” JIT for short. They took a placement test and had to do the parts of the apprenticeship that they didn’t pass on the test. They got paid journeyman rate while they did the school. At the time it caused quite a stir. Having gone through the residential program myself, I liked the JIT program. It got the membership someone else to hate more than the “B” guys! Eventually they all blended in. 

To me, they can all screw off. I paid more “Dues“ than most. Side door my ass. 

I hope you go for it and it all works out. But I do have reservations. You always seemed a little skewed against the Union. Maybe it wasn’t against the Union, but some of the memberships mentality? Now if I hear Stiff Neck signing up, I’m going to ban myself from here and go to Holt’s! :devil3:


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## tjb (Feb 12, 2014)

We can opt out of having part of our check go to a PAC type thing. 

As far as getting in as a licensed electrician, our local is trying the CE/CW thing but it’s not gaining much headway. And of the seven or eight guys I’ve seen come through so far, we kept only one. The others sucked. 

I organized in, which means I joined having already had my license. Our state requires a full four-year apprenticeship regardless of union or open. I’ve taken president zero flack for not having schooled through the union, and zero flack for having organized in. Never been called a step-brother. Everybody seems to respect me for my skills attitude and work ethic. No snobbery detected whatsoever. 

Then again, I do work hard, and try to do a good job, and have good skills, and maintain a good attitude. So it’s hard to fail. 

If a guy organizes in, and he does a good job and has a good attitude, seems like all the union guys accept him, and are glad he left the world of getting paid crap while his boss keeps all the profit. Might be different in other locals though. 

Hey, if it sucks and you hate it, you can always leave. I think you have nothing to lose by trying, and quite a lot to gain.


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## bjmulherin1978 (Feb 1, 2018)

Hey man don't join the union, this is coming from a member of the I.B.E.W ,ill leave out what local. Stay away from it. I hate my blue Cross blue shield insurance, it sucks having the best insurance in the country. I just hate walking in a doctors office and whipping out my insurance card and not paying a darn thing. I would much rather have some state ran insurance. And I absolutely hate the fact that my whole household is covered, and I hate that the contractor I work for has to pay 6.70 per hour I work for that insurance, I Cant stand the IBEW for organizing the dam labor force and getting me that, and on top of that can yet believe that the contractor I work for also has to pay 6.50 per hour I work into a darn pension fund for when I get old and Cant work, I Cant believe these I.B.E.W DEMOCRATS. AND ANOTHER THING 25.50 PER HOUR I CANT STAND BEING ABLE TO MAKE THAT KIND OF MONEY, MY WIFE DON'T EVEN WORK SHE STAYS HOME AND TAKES CARE OF OUR FIVE YEAR OLD. I AM REALLY GOING TO THINK ABOUT THIS THE NEXT TIME I PAY MY DARN DUES TO THESE PEOPLE. IT PISSES ME OFF. I CANT BELIEVE THESE I.B.E.W DEMOCRATS WANTED ME TO GO SIT IN A CLASSROOM FOR FIVE LONG YEARS, I WOULD MUCH RATHER BE ILLITERATE AND UNTRAINED AND NOT KNOW **** ABOUT THE ELECTRICAL INDUSTRY. OVER THE YEARS I CANT BELIEVE THAT ALL I HAVE BEEN CONCERNED WITH WAS THE MONEY AND ALL THE UNION DOES FOR ME, IS THE UNION A DEMOCRATIC ORGANIZATION, DAM I JUST LEARNED SOMETHING TONIGHT THANK YA'LL, I AM QUITTING FIRST THING MONDAY MORNING 

Sent from my SM-A205U using Tapatalk


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## bjmulherin1978 (Feb 1, 2018)

HackWork said:


> Why don't you spend more time trying to get laid than trying to figure out how to stop 4 cents being taken out of your paycheck?


Thankyou I like your quote, tell it like it is

Sent from my SM-A205U using Tapatalk


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## bjmulherin1978 (Feb 1, 2018)

eddy current said:


> The union up here is full of all kinds of different people and I assume it’s the same there. Some members are right leaning politically, some are left. Some swing with their spouse, some are single. Some believe the planet is round, some believe it’s flat. To each their own.
> 
> A portion of our dues stays at the local, and another portion goes to international IBEW. What they do with that cash is out of my hands and I do not have the option to not pay it.
> 
> The one thing we all enjoy is a great wage, an amazing pension, plenty of free training and a benefit package.


Tell it brother 

Sent from my SM-A205U using Tapatalk


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

bjmulherin1978 said:


> Hey man don't join the union, this is coming from a member of the I.B.E.W ,ill leave out what local. Stay away from it. I hate my blue Cross blue shield insurance, it sucks having the best insurance in the country. I just hate walking in a doctors office and whipping out my insurance card and not paying a darn thing. I would much rather have some state ran insurance. And I absolutely hate the fact that my whole household is covered, and I hate that the contractor I work for has to pay 6.70 per hour I work for that insurance, I Cant stand the IBEW for organizing the dam labor force and getting me that, and on top of that can yet believe that the contractor I work for also has to pay 6.50 per hour I work into a darn pension fund for when I get old and Cant work, I Cant believe these I.B.E.W DEMOCRATS. AND ANOTHER THING 25.50 PER HOUR I CANT STAND BEING ABLE TO MAKE THAT KIND OF MONEY, MY WIFE DON'T EVEN WORK SHE STAYS HOME AND TAKES CARE OF OUR FIVE YEAR OLD. I AM REALLY GOING TO THINK ABOUT THIS THE NEXT TIME I PAY MY DARN DUES TO THESE PEOPLE. IT PISSES ME OFF. I CANT BELIEVE THESE I.B.E.W DEMOCRATS WANTED ME TO GO SIT IN A CLASSROOM FOR FIVE LONG YEARS, I WOULD MUCH RATHER BE ILLITERATE AND UNTRAINED AND NOT KNOW **** ABOUT THE ELECTRICAL INDUSTRY. OVER THE YEARS I CANT BELIEVE THAT ALL I HAVE BEEN CONCERNED WITH WAS THE MONEY AND ALL THE UNION DOES FOR ME, IS THE UNION A DEMOCRATIC ORGANIZATION, DAM I JUST LEARNED SOMETHING TONIGHT THANK YA'LL, I AM QUITTING FIRST THING MONDAY MORNING
> 
> Sent from my SM-A205U using Tapatalk



That was a damn fine 1st post for a 21 month lurker!


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

So what happens to these benefits when there is a serious downturn in the economy like in '08? Do you have to pay for them out of pocket if you're not working? My state experienced huge unemployment in the union sector back then and many IBEW guys were unemployed for a year or more.


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## HertzHound (Jan 22, 2019)

MTW said:


> So what happens to these benefits when there is a serious downturn in the economy like in '08? Do you have to pay for them out of pocket if you're not working? My state experienced huge unemployment in the union sector back then and many IBEW guys were unemployed for a year or more.


In my post I mentioned two types of dues. The international and local. The local one is called “working dues” or “assessments”. You only pay if you are working. It’s a percentage of your wage. Ours is 3%. The PAC is maybe .5%. The target fund might be a dollar an hour. That got a voted increase to a dollar over the years. We have a supplemental pension fund that comes out also. That’s on top of the two other local pension funds. And we have a health savings account that may also be dollar an hour. For that you get a debit card and the money can be used on anything medical that’s not covered under the insurance plan. So co-pays , cosmetic surgery, anything. It can also be used for aspirin, bandaids, Pedialite, Sudafed, and many other staples of everyday living. What’s nice is that money comes out of the check Pre-tax. That’s why it can only be used for certain things. All of it only gets paid in if you are working, because it’s out of you paycheck. Your local may have a vacation fund that also comes out of the check? All of it I never miss out of the check. NJ tax withholding is as much as what is taken out for all mentioned above. 

The international dues you pay regardless if you are working. It’s the same amount for every local. That may be $125 or $135 a quarter. And like I said, half of that goes into your international pension.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

MTW said:


> So what happens to these benefits when there is a serious downturn in the economy like in '08? Do you have to pay for them out of pocket if you're not working? My state experienced huge unemployment in the union sector back then and many IBEW guys were unemployed for a year or more.


Here the contractor pays for your benefit plan monthly on top of your pay (totally separate from your dues) and it is more than required, the extra goes into a personal bank for you. At the end of the year you can take the extra out as long as there is more than 2 years worth of payments still in your bank. This way, if your unemployed at any time your benefits are covered.

Keep in mind our medical is already free so the benefits are for dental, eye glasses, prescription drugs, physio, massages etc.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

eddy current said:


> Here the contractor pays for your benefit plan monthly on top of your pay (totally separate from your dues) and it is more than required, the extra goes into a personal bank for you. At the end of the year you can take the extra out as long as there is more than 2 years worth of payments still in your bank. This way, if your unemployed at any time your benefits are covered.
> 
> Keep in mind our medical is already free so the benefits are for dental, eye glasses, prescription drugs, physio, massages etc.


My local is different and I think most down here are too.

As a simplified explanation, for each hour you work the contractor pays a set amount directly the the local for various things, including "Health and Welfare". You need 1,200 hours per year to get a pension credit and medical insurance. If you don't get the hours during a bad time, then you pay for COBRA for up to 18 months. When I went out 7 years ago COBRA was about $250/month for full coverage, not bad at all.


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## HertzHound (Jan 22, 2019)

For our health and welfare you have to have so many hours per quarter. You need pretty much the full quarterly hours to get the benefits started. Once you have the benefits started, it is less hours per quarter to keep them up. Any hours over the required hours, you can bank. There is a cap on banked hours. If you fall short on your quarterly hours, you can use the banked hours. I’m not exactly sure but I think you could be out three quarters straight (no short calls or anything) before you would loose your health and welfare.

After that you could pay into COBRA. You could use your HSA (health savings account) to pay into COBRA. There is also two tiers of medical. So you could choose to drop down to tier 2 to save some money.


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## u2slow (Jan 2, 2014)

Best part of my IBEW experience was they apprenticed me from day 1. No delays in getting my hours and school sessions. For that I'm especially grateful. Unlike my tech diploma, this has been my stepping stone to better things. 

I've since moved on from the hard & cheap days of construction. (Industry dig, not a union dig.) There's opportunities to work less in better conditions for the same pay. A Red Seal TQ gets attention in most industries.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Thanks for all the help. Most of the larger commercial/industrial companies in my area pay at or even above union scale with very good to excellent benefits, so that is something to consider. I prefer to do my own investing and retirement planning than having a pension that will pay me back in devalued dollars someday. However, the union medical benefits are enticing. Lots to consider.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

MTW said:


> However, the union medical benefits are enticing. Lots to consider.


If you haven't already done so, I'd sit down with an accountant (not a financial planner (aka investment salesman) or tax preparer, a CPA) and do a detailed comparison. See what the total difference is in value of compensation, what the tax angles are, and do some what-ifs. Factor in moving your personal investments into lower risk over time, stocks to bonds, all that jazz. What if you take the money you're currently spending on health care and put it in IRAs. Not just what-ifs with respect to what the markets do, that's financial planner stuff. What if you get laid off for a year. Know what if any average annual layoff / downtime as well as when there's overtime to be had, what to expect either union or non union. 

Not saying this is you, but non union shops have a LOT of people that think their compensation is similar to the union, because they are comparing their wage before the pay their own retirement and health care, to what the union pays separate from their retirement and health care. It has always been significant, but since health care has spiraled, it's even more.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

It's not realistic to think that any working electrician is going to save as much for retirement as would be done in the union. It's just not going to happen. Between the pension, the annuity, and the pension from the local- which are not voluntary, there is simply no comparison. Even taking into consideration the "devalued dollars" bologna, you would still be far ahead. 

Even if you forget both pensions (one of them huge), the annuity alone would be more than the typical electrician would save for retirement himself. And the annuity can be taken out in 1 lump sum, it can be dispersed over time (and the remainder passed to your family when you die), or you can take a gamble and have a higher payout given to you for however long you live (but when you die the remainder, if any, is gone). 

In local 103 in Boston the health and welfare is $13 per hour. The pension is $10.63/hr, and the annuity is $6.72/hr. Those are real dollars consistently paid for every hour you work. And that is for every member, not just the big producers who have been with the company for decades.

It's just not comparable.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> Even taking into consideration the "devalued dollars" bologna, you would still be far ahead.


You're completely wrong about that. Inflation is real and to deny it or ignore its consequences is foolish investing. It's not "bologna" at all. The purchasing power of the money put into the annuity today will be much less than when it's time to collect that money. Is there any built in checks against inflation in these annuities and pensions, besides an annual % COLA?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MTW said:


> You're completely wrong about that. Inflation is real and to deny it or ignore its consequences is foolish investing. It's not "bologna" at all. The purchasing power of the money put into the annuity today will be much less than when it's time to collect that money. Is there any built in checks against inflation in these annuities and pensions, besides an annual % COLA?


My statement was absolutely correct. Even taking into consideration the devalued dollar baloney, you would still be far ahead with the union retirement. Nothing you say will change that.

You said pension earlier, now you’re saying annuity. I don’t think you know what you’re talking about. Tell us what better to invest in, silver and gold? :vs_laugh:

Better yet, show us what you’ve done with your superior investing skills over the last 20 years. Surely your retirement account makes mine look like nothing when taking into consideration for those devalue dollars I will suffer :vs_laugh:


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> My statement was absolutely correct. Even taking into consideration the devalued dollar baloney, you would still be far ahead with the union retirement. Nothing you say will change that.
> 
> You said pension earlier, now you’re saying annuity. I don’t think you know what you’re talking about. Tell us what better to invest in, silver and gold? :vs_laugh:
> 
> Better yet, show us what you’ve done with your superior investing skills over the last 20 years. Surely your retirement account makes mine look like nothing when taking into consideration for those devalue dollars I will suffer :vs_laugh:



You're exhibiting the typical cognitive dissonance of most Americans when the subject of inflation is brought up. I pretty much expected you to react this way. You reacted with mockery and bravado instead of addressing the fact that inflation is destroying the value of every dollar denominated investment asset in existence. Ignoring inflation in retirement strategies is foolish, as I said. What safeguards exist in the union retirement system to fight against inflation? Is the IBEW proactive in fighting inflation on behalf of its members? 

You may very well put all your faith and trust in your retirement accounts, but when serious inflation or hyper inflation kicks in to high gear in our lifetimes, and it will, you will have little to nothing left. Nothing you say will change that.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

MTW said:


> You're completely wrong about that. Inflation is real and to deny it or ignore its consequences is foolish investing. It's not "bologna" at all. The purchasing power of the money put into the annuity today will be much less than when it's time to collect that money. Is there any built in checks against inflation in these annuities and pensions, besides an annual % COLA?



OF COURSE. 



Pensions and annuities are defined benefit. Since the investment has to give you a definite return, they assume some risk, and that costs you. They are more conservative. But they are not like sticking your money in a mattress, they still accrue earn. 



If you put your money in 401k's, you are gambling that the market will do better than the guaranteed return of defined benefit plans. (These days you're gambling that either one of them won't go tits up entirely but that's another story.) 



Most investment strategies have you transitioning your money from more aggressive, risky stuff into less risky stuff over time anyway, there's less for you to miss out on than if you were 21. 



It's just like T&M versus flat price.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

MTW said:


> You may very well put all your faith and trust in your retirement accounts, but when serious inflation or hyper inflation kicks in to high gear in our lifetimes, and it will, you will have little to nothing left. Nothing you say will change that.


 If the ship hits the sand, I don't expect stocks to do that great either, your 401K can tank too.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MTW said:


> You're exhibiting the typical cognitive dissonance of most Americans when the subject of inflation is brought up.


That is not true. It’s clear that you just want to preach and this whole thread it is just your platform for doing so. But the truth is that I haven't engaged you in the topic of inflation. I am only discussing the benefits of Union retirement, and how much better they are than non-union retirement, even factoring in your inflation bologna. 

I’ll point out that you still haven’t told us about all of the money you have in your retirement investment to date, and how that won’t be affected by your inflation baloney.

Just to be clear, I am not saying that inflation is bologna and should be ignored. I am saying that your including it into this discussion in the way that you are is bologna.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

splatz said:


> OF COURSE.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I am on the road so I can't see my percentages now. But I can give round numbers.

Macmaikeman can attest to this, it was 6 years ago that me and Miller put up our Annuities. Mine was a little over 330K. Today the last statement showed a little under $400K. That $65K gain was without any contribution whatsoever, I have not worked a single hour in the union during that time.

The pension fund is separate, I have no control over that, but smarter people than me have done pretty well with it.

So I believe I am covered for inflation, at least as much as any other retirement vehicle that a working electrician would use. 

I would still love to hear what Peter has used for the last 20 years and how it's not susceptible to inflation like our terrible union retirement is.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

splatz said:


> OF COURSE.
> 
> 
> 
> Pensions and annuities are defined benefit. Since the investment has to give you a definite return, they assume some risk, and that costs you. They are more conservative. But they are not like sticking your money in a mattress, they still accrue earn.


Obviously, because they are investing it. But what is the investment strategy used? Stocks? Bonds? Mutual funds? A mix of everything. 

On that note, are private sector union retirement accounts in as bad shape as the government sector ones? 




> If you put your money in 401k's, you are gambling that the market will do better than the guaranteed return of defined benefit plans. (These days you're gambling that either one of them won't go tits up entirely but that's another story.)


Anything that is heavily market based is going to drop like a rock at some point. We are in the mother of all bubbles at the moment.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

HackWork said:


> I am on the road so I can't see my percentages now. But I can give round numbers.
> 
> Macmaikeman can attest to this, it was 6 years ago that me and Miller put up our Annuities. Mine was a little over 330K. Today the last statement showed a little under $400K. That $65K gain was without any contribution whatsoever, I have not worked a single hour in the union during that time.
> 
> ...


Yup.


Anyway, besides my SEP which I threw money into for a long time, rental property is the way I figure is the best inflation fighter. Dollar devalues- raise the rent. Bottom drops out? Raise the rent. Tenent gives you stink eye?- Raise the rent. Bada boom , bada bing.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> That is not true. It’s clear that you just want to preach and this whole thread it is just your platform for doing so. But the truth is that I haven't engaged you in the topic of inflation. I am only discussing the benefits of Union retirement, and how much better they are than non-union retirement, even factoring in your inflation bologna.
> 
> I’ll point out that you still haven’t told us about all of the money you have in your retirement investment to date, and how that won’t be affected by your inflation baloney.
> 
> Just to be clear, I am not saying that inflation is bologna and should be ignored. I am saying that your including it into this discussion in the way that you are is bologna.


Like always, you've done far more "preaching" than I have. So I'll just let that one go. 

I haven't done much retirement planning and saving, which is one reason I'm considering all this. The time to start is now so at least I'll have something. I don't have the benefit of 20 years working in in the union. But somehow you think that negates the reality of inflation and and its destructive consequences. If the union retirement plans are not heavily shielded from market corrections and crashes, and inflation, then I would be reticent to join.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> I am on the road so I can't see my percentages now. But I can give round numbers.
> 
> Macmaikeman can attest to this, it was 6 years ago that me and Miller put up our Annuities. Mine was a little over 330K. Today the last statement showed a little under $400K. That $65K gain was without any contribution whatsoever, I have not worked a single hour in the union during that time.


When will you be able to use that money? That is a great amount, but it won't have the purchasing power it does 20+ years from now when you will need it to actually retire. Depending on how much unrest and turmoil we experience in this nation, it may be absolutely worthless. That has been my point all along. I never said that I had a way that was better, only what is being done in your plan to protect you long term. If you are locked into the union's plan, I'd like to know exactly what it is they do. 



> So I believe I am covered for inflation, at least as much as any other retirement vehicle that a working electrician would use.


What is this belief based on, other than just a nominal increase in the dollar amount? Do you know the strategy used? 




> I would still love to hear what Peter has used for the last 20 years and how it's not susceptible to inflation like our terrible union retirement is.


Everything dollar denominated is susceptible devaluation by inflation, unless you have a shrewd investment advisor who understands it and builds your plan accordingly.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MTW said:


> I don't have the benefit of 20 years working in in the union. But somehow you think that negates the reality of inflation and and its destructive consequences.


I never said that, or insinuated it.

You're the one criticizing the union retirement, even though you have no idea how it works, and saying that I will have little to nothing left when I retire... Yet you haven't posted a better retirement savings method even though I asked many times.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MTW said:


> When will you be able to use that money?


 Any time I want. I can take it all out now and either pay the normal penalties or roll it penalty free into a 401K or other tax deferred investment. Or I can wait until whatever age the government says I can take it out without the added taxes. At that point I can take it out in the 3 ways I mentioned earlier.



> That is a great amount, but it won't have the purchasing power it does 20+ years from now when you will need it to actually retire.


 You can't say that because you don't know how much it will be. You have no idea how much I will have. Anything that you say now is nothing more than you guessing. 



> Depending on how much unrest and turmoil we experience in this nation, it may be absolutely worthless.


 It may, but it may be a fortune as well. The same way as how I grew my annuity in 2008 while most other people lost. You never know.

And the simple truth is that this applies across the board, not just to union retirement methods. So your inclusion of it here, without citing any other method, is what I called bologna. 



> What is this belief based on, other than just a nominal increase in the dollar amount? Do you know the strategy used?


 Yes, because it is my strategy. I am in full control of my annuity, I can invest in anything from a guaranteed fund to a high risk blend. The funds themselves that I choose are setup by professionals. It's all a gamble, but I would put my money on their opinion well before mine.

As for how I plan to beat inflation, yes, I plan to do it by large increases in dollar amounts. If I fail, then I fail. Inflation will effect us across the board. I have real estate investments too that would help counter it.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> You can't say that because you don't know how much it will be. You have no idea how much I will have. Anything that you say now is nothing more than you guessing.
> 
> It may, but it may be a fortune as well. The same way as how I grew my annuity in 2008 while most other people lost. You never know.


I'm making a very educated guess that this current bubble will burst, just as it did before. I'm also almost guaranteeing that dollar creation (inflation) will continue unabated until the dollar collapses itself. Those are my assumptions and I'm certain that both will occur. Obviously they are not yours, but if you're able to profit from them, then all the better. 



> And the simple truth is that this applies across the board, not just to union retirement methods. So your inclusion of it here, without citing any other method, is what I called bologna.


Of course it does, but I'm not considering other methods. I'm considering what the union has to offer, and what methods are available to protect ones retirement funds, and that is what is in view at the moment. 



> Yes, because it is my strategy. I am in full control of my annuity, I can invest in anything from a guaranteed fund to a high risk blend. The funds themselves that I choose are setup by professionals. It's all a gamble, but I would put my money on their opinion well before mine.
> 
> As for how I plan to beat inflation, yes, I plan to do it by large increases in dollar amounts. If I fail, then I fail. Inflation will effect us across the board. I have real estate investments too that would help counter it.


I see.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MTW said:


> I'm making a very educated guess that this current bubble will burst, just as it did before. I'm also almost guaranteeing that dollar creation (inflation) will continue unabated until the dollar collapses itself. Those are my assumptions and I'm certain that both will occur. Obviously they are not yours, but if you're able to profit from them, then all the better.


 That's fine, I am glad you feel that way. But you would have been better off starting a thread crying about not being able to retire due to inflation and post this there.

I was under the impression that we were comparing union to non-union with this retirement discussion. And nothing you have said applies to union retirement anymore than non-union. So I maintain what I said earlier about union retirement that started this exchange:

"_Even taking into consideration the "devalued dollars" bologna, you would still be far ahead._"


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## u2slow (Jan 2, 2014)

As the kind of person that would bungle up my own investments horribly, probably get ripped-off in the process, I'm happy my union (although not IBEW) is looking after it all. It is a quasi-gov't public-service plan, which gives me some peace of mind, but as we know, nothing is bulletproof. IMO, I'll get one shot at this, and can't afford to lose badly. 



macmikeman said:


> rental property is the way I figure is the best inflation fighter. Dollar devalues- raise the rent. Bottom drops out? Raise the rent. Tenent gives you stink eye?- Raise the rent. Bada boom , bada bing.


I have extended family that's deep into that. From the standpoint of owning an extra property for 25 years, and selling, its a win. The downsides are capital gains taxes, rents capped at 2% increases, and the amount of work it takes to maintain another residence. (Can be considerable on a 40yo home.) Tenants these days have more rights than landlords. I nearly stepped back into it ~5 years go, but reconsidered at the last moment, realizing how thin it would stretch me for 5-10 years, and the impact it would have on my lifestyle for the next 25 years. No thanks - I see how 'well' family handles it. :vs_laugh:


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> That's fine, I am glad you feel that way. But you would have been better off starting a thread crying about not being able to retire due to inflation and post this there.


:sleep1:



> I was under the impression that we were comparing union to non-union with this retirement discussion. And nothing you have said applies to union retirement anymore than non-union. So I maintain what I said earlier about union retirement that started this exchange:
> 
> "_Even taking into consideration the "devalued dollars" bologna, you would still be far ahead._"


I still don't agree. 

Let's say you end up with two million dollars in your plan when you finally use the money if you go to retirement age, and have no ability to earn any more, and it costs $5000 for a loaf of bread. You will not be "far ahead" in any sense of the word as we define retirement today, which is not working, enjoying life and doing whatever else it is that retired people do. Nobody else will be for sure, but don't tell me that I'll be far ahead just because I have more dollars saved up in an account. Under the scenario I believe will occur, retirement savings will be gobbled up on life's essentials and not much else.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> I am on the road so I can't see my percentages now. But I can give round numbers.
> 
> Macmaikeman can attest to this, it was 6 years ago that me and Miller put up our Annuities. Mine was a little over 330K. Today the last statement showed a little under $400K. That $65K gain was without any contribution whatsoever, I have not worked a single hour in the union during that time.



How much were you able to bank in your annuity every year? It's a fixed amount paid into it hourly by the contractor, correct? How much were you able to profit off that amount from your own investment strategies?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MTW said:


> I still don't agree.


 But you haven't given a reason why.



> Let's say you end up with two million dollars in your plan when you finally use the money if you go to retirement age, and have no ability to earn any more, and it costs $5000 for a loaf of bread. You will not be "far ahead" in any sense of the word as we define retirement today, which is not working, enjoying life and doing whatever else it is that retired people do.


 Either you are trolling or just thick skulled. 

You will most definitely be far ahead with that union retirement, even in the case of terrible inflation, than you would be with any other retirement plan that a working electrician would have. That is what this thread is about, that is what I am speaking about, and you have not refuted it in any way.

So until you tell us about this mystery retirement investment that non-union electrician have, I will still correctly maintain that you will be far ahead with a union retirement than non-union.



MTW said:


> How much were you able to bank in your annuity every year? It's a fixed amount paid into it hourly by the contractor, correct? How much were you able to profit off that amount from your own investment strategies?


I don't know what you are asking. There is no cap. There is no limit to how many hours you can work nor is there a limit on gains.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> But you haven't given a reason why.
> 
> Either you are trolling or just thick skulled.


Because I believe the crisis will be far worse than most people imagine. 





> You will most definitely be far ahead with that union retirement, even in the case of terrible inflation, than you would be with any other retirement plan that a working electrician would have. That is what this thread is about, that is what I am speaking about, and you have not refuted it in any way.
> 
> So until you tell us about this mystery retirement investment that non-union electrician have, I will still correctly maintain that you will be far ahead with a union retirement than non-union.


We need to define terms better then. If there is "terrible inflation" as you put it and you have put no safeguards or strategies in place to guard against it in your union plan, you will not be better off. If you do plan for it, then you will be better off. Now, the question is, how many are planning for it? 

I maintain that without aggressive protections in place, you will not be better off. 

So we'll have to leave it that we disagree, and see who is right 20 years from now. I'm willing to wait that long. :biggrin:




> I don't know what you are asking. There is no cap. There is no limit to how many hours you can work nor is there a limit on gains.


So the contribution = hours worked x dollar amount contributed?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MTW said:


> Because I believe the crisis will be far worse than most people imagine.


 Maybe you are correct. But again, you have not explained how it will effect union retirements more than non-union.




> We need to define terms better then. If there is "terrible inflation" as you put it and you have put no safeguards or strategies in place to guard against it in your union plan, you will not be better off.


 Only if you can cite "safeguards or strategies" that non-union electrical workers are using to stop the effects of inflation. Since you can't tell us about those, then it is correct to say that the union retirement will be better.



> So the contribution = hours worked x dollar amount contributed?


 Wow...

For someone so sure of how bad this is, you certainly don't know much about it...


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

u2slow said:


> As the kind of person that would bungle up my own investments horribly, probably get ripped-off in the process, I'm happy my union (although not IBEW) is looking after it all. It is a quasi-gov't public-service plan, which gives me some peace of mind, but as we know, nothing is bulletproof. IMO, I'll get one shot at this, and can't afford to lose badly.
> 
> 
> 
> I have extended family that's deep into that. From the standpoint of owning an extra property for 25 years, and selling, its a win. The downsides are capital gains taxes, rents capped at 2% increases, and the amount of work it takes to maintain another residence. (Can be considerable on a 40yo home.) Tenants these days have more rights than landlords. I nearly stepped back into it ~5 years go, but reconsidered at the last moment, realizing how thin it would stretch me for 5-10 years, and the impact it would have on my lifestyle for the next 25 years. No thanks - I see how 'well' family handles it. :vs_laugh:


You're right, it would have been better to lease out a flock of private jets like one billionaire that I knew and met with several times, but I didn't have the skin to get in the game...........


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> Maybe you are correct. But again, you have not explained how it will effect union retirements more than non-union.


:wallbash: Did I say that inflation only targets union pension plans? No, never, not one time. 






> Only if you can cite "safeguards or strategies" that non-union electrical workers are using to stop the effects of inflation. Since you can't tell us about those, then it is correct to say that the union retirement will be better.


Those strategies will benefits all kinds of retirement plans. My point is that if you have a lot of cash or exposed assets in an annuity, it is at risk for being devalued into nothing. You have this focus on a nominal value, as in "My plan has x which is way more than yours, which is 1/4 the amount, so mine is much better." Inflation doesn't discriminate, it takes the value of all money down to zero. 



> Wow...
> 
> For someone so sure of how bad this is, you certainly don't know much about it...


It still doesn't change the fact that I'm correct about inflation. :biggrin:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MTW said:


> Inflation doesn't discriminate, *it takes the value of all money down to zero. *


No, it does not. And that is idiotic. 

The simple fact is that a union retirement package in an area like your's and mine is much, much better than just about all other non-union electrician retirement plans. And I am talking about both in dollar value and diversity.

Even if the impending inflation doom that you say will happen actually does, the person with the union retirement package will be much better off than the non-union electrician. That is what I said from the beginning and you haven't posted a thing to refute it. 

The most messed up part about this whole exchange is that I would genuinely be interested in hearing a way to mitigate inflation loses. But you clearly don't have one, you are just posting BS.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> No, it does not. And that is idiotic.


If that's what you believe, then I'm out. We simply are never going to see eye to eye on this issue, ever. Our world views are just too far apart. 



> The simple fact is that a union retirement package in an area like your's and mine is much, much better than just about all other non-union electrician retirement plans. And I am talking about both in dollar value and diversity.


That could be true, I'd like to see the numbers first. For instance, how much will be put into said pensions and annuity after one year of employment. 



> Even if the impending inflation doom that you say will happen actually does, the person with the union retirement package will be much better off than the non-union electrician. That is what I said from the beginning and you haven't posted a thing to refute it.


Only if your investments are geared toward profiting from said doom. If you're sitting on a pile of money that is not invested well, then no. But again, you don't seem to be understanding this. :vs_mad:



> The most messed up part about this whole exchange is that I would genuinely be interested in hearing a way to mitigate inflation loses. But you clearly don't have one, you are just posting BS.


You would just do what you always do and blow off anything I say as being wrong, stupid, etc. I honestly have zero desire to engage this conversation any more. But just to prove that you're making a false accusation, I have a very good friend who runs his own financial planning business, and we have talked extensively about inflation protection investing strategies over the years. In fact, one of his main strategies is inflation protection for his clients. I know far more about this subject that you realize. 

But go on, accuse me of being a liar and having no friends like you usually do.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MTW said:


> If that's what you believe, then I'm out. We simply are never going to see eye to eye on this issue, ever. Our world views are just too far apart.


 We are not talking about world view. Inflations does NOT "_take the value of all money down to zero_.". I don't think you actually believe that, but if you do, you must be an idiot. You're talking garbage.



> That could be true, I'd like to see the numbers first. For instance, how much will be put into said pensions and annuity after one year of employment.


 I literally gave you the exact numbers from local 103 in the post I made which you disagreed with and started all of this. 



> Only if your investments are geared toward profiting from said doom. If you're sitting on a pile of money that is not invested well, then no. But again, you don't seem to be understanding this. :vs_mad:


 Again, you won't tell me how the average non-union retirement plan would differ. Until you do, everyone in their right mind is going to believe that the union pension and annuity are just as susceptible to inflation as the non-union electrician's retirement fund (most likely a 401-K, of a much smaller value than the union annuity).



> You would just do what you always do and blow off anything I say as being wrong, stupid


 But everything you have said is wrong, and that last part about inflations bringing everything to zero is stupid.

You still haven't shown us how, for example, a union electrician's retirement plan of $500K in an annuity and $4,000/month pension payout is not better, even with inflation, than a non-union electrician 401-K of $250K.

Explain that. I have asked you many times, but you refuse. 



> But just to prove that you're making a false accusation, I have a very good friend who runs his own financial planning business, and we have talked extensively about inflation protection investing strategies over the years. In fact, one of his main strategies is inflation protection for his clients. I know far more about this subject that you realize.


 That might be true. I'll openly admit it. But you have not posted ANY of the knowledge here. 

Why not? Why not tell us about these retirement investment strategies that won't be as susceptible to inflation? How many more times will I have to ask? As of now, you have done nothing but say "I know something that you don't, but I am not going to tell you what it is".


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## Fist of lightning (Aug 15, 2019)

HackWork said:


> MTW said:
> 
> 
> > If that's what you believe, then I'm out. We simply are never going to see eye to eye on this issue, ever. Our world views are just too far apart.
> ...


Hack Bc he knows that the union pension , annuity, and retirement plan is the better choice but ,he has been trolling this entire post from the beginning.

Nothing he says can be takin seriously on this topic at all nothing he says makes sense .


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## u2slow (Jan 2, 2014)

HackWork said:


> The simple fact is that a union retirement package in an area like your's and mine is much, much better than just about all other non-union electrician retirement plans. And I am talking about both in dollar value and diversity.
> 
> Even if the impending inflation doom that you say will happen actually does, the person with the union retirement package will be much better off than the non-union electrician.
> 
> The most messed up part about this whole exchange is that I would genuinely be interested in hearing a way to mitigate inflation loses.


Agreed. 

I'm sure there's experienced investors than can beat what a pension plan will yield in the end. At the same time, not everyone can 'win' at that game. I know what I can, and can't handle; and managing investments for my retirement is not it. I'd die of an aneurysm long before I got there. The catch for me would be to decide if the IBEW plan is reliable enough. (I'm union, but not IBEW anymore.)

In my experience, non-union outfits either have no annuity program at all, or have some custom fund that you can put your money into after you've been there a while (but still no company-matching-$). This practice is even sliding into the union side (forestry, for one) as they phase out their traditional pensions. Seems to be the direction of any shrinking union.

As far as inflation, our wages in the very least need to keep up, and so does the contribution rate. That is, if inflation stays linear. I don't think there's any way to combat an upswing on inflation other than putting more in, or taking more risk.



macmikeman said:


> You're right, it would have been better to lease out a flock of private jets like one billionaire that I knew and met with several times, but I didn't have the skin to get in the game...........


Your point?

With my luck, I'd be the screwed-over partner in the private jet venture. 

Normal/single folks have more latitude for investing. When you make family support payments (like me) all earnings are used to determine payments. Tax exempt does not mean support-payment exempt. Makes the union/company style pension plan a win for me.


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## JoeSparky (Mar 25, 2010)

Peter, surely at this point in your career, you do not need the union. You have been doing this long enough that you can charge enough working for yourself to buy those benefits yourself. Hax and others would not have their own shop if it was more profitable to be an employee. I have a colleague who gave up a public sector gig to run his security business full time - because it was more profitable to self employed than be a government employee. The bennies and pay are great for newbies and experienced guys without the motivation to chase their own work.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

JoeSparky said:


> Peter, surely at this point in your career, you do not need the union. You have been doing this long enough that you can charge enough working for yourself to buy those benefits yourself. Hax and others would not have their own shop if it was more profitable to be an employee. I have a colleague who gave up a public sector gig to run his security business full time - because it was more profitable to self employed than be a government employee. The bennies and pay are great for newbies and experienced guys without the motivation to chase their own work.


Pardon me for butting in and speaking for Hax, he's had a medical condition that prevented him from continuing on in the union as one of the foot soldiers. My friend ________ has an accountant who has a scam setup for my friend in which they figure out his tax burden each year and the accountant invests that much of his money to offset it 100% into some sort of Reit or whatever which makes him property rich at the same time as he is paying zero income tax. I WANT IN. He's stingy. This is the thing about the really rich. They get richer every year and don't pay taxes, and don't let us pond scum in on the deals............


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## JoeSparky (Mar 25, 2010)

macmikeman said:


> Pardon me for butting in and speaking for Hax, he's had a medical condition that prevented him from continuing on in the union as one of the foot soldiers. My friend ________ has an accountant who has a scam setup for my friend in which they figure out his tax burden each year and the accountant invests that much of his money to offset it 100% into some sort of Reit or whatever which makes him property rich at the same time as he is paying zero income tax. I WANT IN. He's stingy. This is the thing about the really rich. They get richer every year and don't pay taxes, and don't let us pond scum in on the deals............



Some folks pay their taxes and b1tch about the ones who pay less then them. Others have read the tax laws and utilize them to their advantage.
Loophole, Tax Law. Potatoe, Potatow


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

JoeSparky said:


> Peter, surely at this point in your career, you do not need the union. You have been doing this long enough that you can charge enough working for yourself to buy those benefits yourself. Hax and others would not have their own shop if it was more profitable to be an employee. I have a colleague who gave up a public sector gig to run his security business full time - because it was more profitable to self employed than be a government employee. The bennies and pay are great for newbies and experienced guys without the motivation to chase their own work.


Truth be told, I’d be making more working in the union normal full-time hours right now when taking all of the benefits into account, about $90 per hour. 

But I would have to work all day, and I like farting around and doing spurts of work here and there when I feel like it for high profit much more pleasing. I went from a super go-getter to a lazy bum.

if you’re OK with working eight hours a day and in an area with a strong union, it very well might be your best bet.


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## u2slow (Jan 2, 2014)

JoeSparky said:


> I have a colleague who gave up a public sector gig to run his security business full time - because it was more profitable to self employed than be a government employee. The bennies and pay are great for newbies and experienced guys without the motivation to chase their own work.


You also need to be business savvy to succeed on your own. Technical experience and motivation are not enough. 



macmikeman said:


> My friend ________ has an accountant who has a scam setup for my friend in which they figure out his tax burden each year and the accountant invests that much of his money to offset it 100% into some sort of Reit or whatever which makes him property rich at the same time as he is paying zero income tax. I WANT IN. He's stingy. This is the thing about the really rich. They get richer every year and don't pay taxes, and don't let us pond scum in on the deals............


You called it a scam yourself. What if its not legal anyway?


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

JoeSparky said:


> You have been doing this long enough that you can charge enough working for yourself to buy those benefits yourself. Hax and others would not have their own shop if it was more profitable to be an employee.


Well OK but it's also possible to work your ass off and lose money, let's not forget the risk and etc. Being a great electrician doesn't really mean you'll be a great electrical contractor. 

Making the break to start your own business is much more than just cutting out the middleman. The middleman being the employer, who bills you out at $125 an hour and pays you $50. 

I'd say a guy has at best a 50-50 chance of making more as a contractor than he'd make logging the same hours in the union, until he gets to two employees. 

Matching the union compensation as a one man shop is pretty ****ing hard. 

If you like the work, and don't like administration, you can succeed as a business (financially) and still like it less.


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