# Smoke detectors



## Dolson226 (May 15, 2013)

We are about to start wiring a single family home that was a total loss due to fire. 
Homeowner has hired a company to install a fire alarm system throughout home including smoke detectors. This company has told homeowner that they install all smoke detectors and the electricians are not to install any. 

I have had this in the past and our local inspector still required us to install all our smoke detectors as we are normally require to. 

Seems silly to have double the amount of smoke detectors in the house than they need. 

What are your guys thoughts on this ?
Maybe a code reference ? 

Thanks guys


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

I went round and round with this on my own damn house no less. just ask your inspector what they require. I would still rough in the smokes and blank em off for future, but that's just me.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Around here if it is a listed system and they install the smokes and carbons to code then there is no need to install our units.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Unless you can clarify from an inspector to do otherwise, install yours. It is likely the alarm company's system will one day become completely defunct when the HO gets tired of shelling out monthly monitoring fees.


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## running dummy (Mar 19, 2009)

IslandGuy said:


> Unless you can clarify from an inspector to do otherwise, install yours. It is likely the alarm company's system will one day become completely defunct when the HO gets tired of shelling out monthly monitoring fees.


This is what our inspector says and usually requires hard wired units as well.


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## Dolson226 (May 15, 2013)

IslandGuy said:


> Unless you can clarify from an inspector to do otherwise, install yours. It is likely the alarm company's system will one day become completely defunct when the HO gets tired of shelling out monthly monitoring fees.


That was my thought exactly. I'm not real familiar with the fire alarm systems. I was wondering if HO was did stop paying for the services would the system still work like ours would. I imagine it would but not for sure. 

Thoughts ?


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Where do these inspectors come from?


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## wcord (Jan 23, 2011)

IslandGuy said:


> Unless you can clarify from an inspector to do otherwise, install yours. It is likely the alarm company's system will one day become completely defunct when the HO gets tired of shelling out monthly monitoring fees.





running dummy said:


> This is what our inspector says and usually requires hard wired units as well.


 Exactly the same reasoning here.
In the future, the HO decides the alarm system is PITA, so the thing gets turned off. Or lack of maintenance and the system doesn't work properly.


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## bmailman20 (Jan 4, 2013)

It's not a problem here to let the alarm co take care if the smokes, as long as they're installed to code, every bedroom and hallway. However, I've only had one instance where the alarm co also did the COs. 
On new jobs, I try to convince the customer to use the alarm system for smokes. A chirping smoke detector is my least favorite service call.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

wcord said:


> Exactly the same reasoning here.
> In the future, the HO decides the alarm system is PITA, so the thing gets turned off. Or lack of maintenance and the system doesn't work properly.


As opposed to magical 120v systems that require no maintenance and can't be turned off. :laughing:


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## Dolson226 (May 15, 2013)

Thank you all for your responses. I have a call in the the local inspector just waiting for the call back, and wanted some other opinions & experiences


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## LARMGUY (Aug 22, 2010)

wcord said:


> Exactly the same reasoning here.
> In the future, the HO decides the alarm system is PITA, so the thing gets turned off. Or lack of maintenance and the system doesn't work properly.


We are in a "dialog" defined ,argument, with our AHJ. We were asked to put two horn strobes and a pull station in a small café which already has a functional sprinkler system. We did so. We also tied in the sprinkler and the Ansul cooking hood extinguisher system in for notification.

Now you know the sprinkled building does not require a fire alarm per se. BUT, since we did install the notification appliances, the AHJ says he wants us to _"bring it up to code"_ by installing horn strobes in the bathrooms. We contend the code has already been met and we went beyond our obligations to comply with code as a fire alarm installing company as there really was no requirement to install any fire alarm in this sprinkled building.

The problem here is the design of the building. In order to do so we would have to pipe it in behind existing walls and 20 ft to the rediron. Other trades would also be called back in to repair what we tear up in order to accomplish this nonrequired install.

Is "Because I said so." really a valid reason to charge the owner around $5,000 for two horn strobes?


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## wcord (Jan 23, 2011)

electricmanscott said:


> As opposed to magical 120v systems that require no maintenance and can't be turned off. :laughing:


Which is why in the CEC, smoke alarms are tied in with the lighting circuit.

The point is that an intrusion alarm system is not essential in a house and if turned off, would remove the safety coverage .


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

wcord said:


> Which is why in the CEC, smoke alarms are tied in with the lighting circuit.
> 
> The point is that an intrusion alarm system is not essential in a house and if turned off, would remove the safety coverage .


What would stop the HO from removing the smokes and blanking them off?

Neither system (single station detectors) or a fire alarm system is 100% fool-proof to an adequately armed fool. 

The ORC (Ohio Residential Code) would accept either. My preference would be single station detectors but I can't enforce my opinion.

Pete


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

My state has a huge focus on smoke detection, and rightly so given all the construction debaucheries good detection makes lesser sins of


~CS~


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## Hack Work (Dec 29, 2013)

chicken steve said:


> My state has a huge focus on smoke detection, and rightly so given all the construction debaucheries good detection makes lesser sins of
> 
> 
> ~CS~


Thanks for that. If you have any other fun facts about your state, please let us know.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Dolson226 said:


> That was my thought exactly. I'm not real familiar with the fire alarm systems. I was wondering if HO was did stop paying for the services would the system still work like ours would. I imagine it would but not for sure.
> 
> Thoughts ?


That would depend on the system. Many are installed "free" or at a discount with the proviso that the HO enter a 2 year monitoring agreement. No agreement, no system, and definately no technical support or replacement components, hence the need for the code required hardwired units.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

electricmanscott said:


> As opposed to magical 120v systems that require no maintenance and can't be turned off. :laughing:


There's maintenance and then there's maintenance. Installing a fresh battery in a hardwired detector is as easy as a remote control. In addition, a hardwired system will not have a horn inside and outside every bedroom and in each hallway. It is likely one could sleep through an alarm system's horn when you're in the 1st floor bedroom and the horn is in the attic, facing the street.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

LARMGUY said:


> We are in a "dialog" defined ,argument, with our AHJ. We were asked to put two horn strobes and a pull station in a small café which already has a functional sprinkler system. We did so. We also tied in the sprinkler and the Ansul cooking hood extinguisher system in for notification.
> 
> Now you know the sprinkled building does not require a fire alarm per se. BUT, since we did install the notification appliances, the AHJ says he wants us to _"bring it up to code"_ by installing horn strobes in the bathrooms. We contend the code has already been met and we went beyond our obligations to comply with code as a fire alarm installing company as there really was no requirement to install any fire alarm in this sprinkled building.
> 
> ...


"Because I said so" isn't a valid reason, whether the additional work costs $50.00 or $50,000.00. If you are right and the inspector is wrong, it's time to prove your case, and go over his head if needs be.


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## canadian-dj (Oct 15, 2011)

LARMGUY said:


> We are in a "dialog" defined ,argument, with our AHJ. We were asked to put two horn strobes and a pull station in a small café which already has a functional sprinkler system. We did so. We also tied in the sprinkler and the Ansul cooking hood extinguisher system in for notification.
> 
> Now you know the sprinkled building does not require a fire alarm per se. BUT, since we did install the notification appliances, the AHJ says he wants us to _"bring it up to code"_ by installing horn strobes in the bathrooms. We contend the code has already been met and we went beyond our obligations to comply with code as a fire alarm installing company as there really was no requirement to install any fire alarm in this sprinkled building.
> 
> ...


It never stops amazing me how different areas have exactly opposide ideas on what should be code. Around here if a building has a sprinkler system, not only does it require a F/A system but that system is to be monitored so fire department gets call if alarm is activated. I guess they do not want water flowing and no one showing up (makes sense to me).


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## LARMGUY (Aug 22, 2010)

IslandGuy said:


> "Because I said so" isn't a valid reason, whether the additional work costs $50.00 or $50,000.00. If you are right and the inspector is wrong, it's time to prove your case, and go over his head if needs be.


 
The owner stepped up and cleared the extra $ for the two H/S.

We were almost prepared to anger the AHJ a bit but found it unnecessary.

The electric subcontractor is piping and running the wire.


:thumbsup:


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## LARMGUY (Aug 22, 2010)

canadian-dj said:


> It never stops amazing me how different areas have exactly opposide ideas on what should be code. Around here if a building has a sprinkler system, not only does it require a F/A system but that system is to be monitored so fire department gets call if alarm is activated. I guess they do not want water flowing and no one showing up (makes sense to me).


Usually the sprinklered buildings do have an external gong. There is a difference between a bell and a gong.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=qTBxVg5w8zQ


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## mccoff7noodle (Apr 19, 2012)

is it not legal to install smoke detectors wired with the same circuit as the exit signs?


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

canadian-dj said:


> It never stops amazing me how different areas have exactly opposide ideas on what should be code. Around here if a building has a sprinkler system, not only does it require a F/A system but that system is to be monitored so fire department gets call if alarm is activated. I guess they do not want water flowing and no one showing up (makes sense to me).


I'm not sure if having served under career FD folks that has sheepskins in fire sciences enlightened _or_ confused me Pete, but i will say they do have their rationale for imparting doctrine demographically. 

For instance the new regime here insisted on sprinklers with the same F/A notification system for anything occupied over 2 stories, where it had been a bit of a grey area prior...

Their reason was the availability/response of FD ladder and/or platform trucks 

~CS~


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## Bugz11B (May 12, 2013)

I have not installed smokes in a long time all the houses I do have systems and as long as they do things up to code there is never an issue. I would do as Dennis said and just ask the inspector.


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## Dolson226 (May 15, 2013)

Spoke with the local inspector and he verified that we do not need to install our smokers. If fire alarm system has them


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## Knightryder12 (Apr 4, 2013)

LARMGUY said:


> We are in a "dialog" defined ,argument, with our AHJ. We were asked to put two horn strobes and a pull station in a small café which already has a functional sprinkler system. We did so. We also tied in the sprinkler and the Ansul cooking hood extinguisher system in for notification.
> 
> Now you know the sprinkled building does not require a fire alarm per se. BUT, since we did install the notification appliances, the AHJ says he wants us to _"bring it up to code"_ by installing horn strobes in the bathrooms. We contend the code has already been met and we went beyond our obligations to comply with code as a fire alarm installing company as there really was no requirement to install any fire alarm in this sprinkled building.
> 
> ...


Down here in Fla it depends on the Buildings Occupancy. If its a place of assembly we still need audio and visual notifications even if the building is fully sprinklered. Not sure about a restaurant though.


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## mertabird (Nov 14, 2013)

Found a copy of the ICC's International Residential Code online. The material covering smoke alarms is on pg. 63. I had an ahj use this as his reference once for telling me I had to install them throughout the house, even though I was working on a basement remodel.

https://archive.org/stream/gov.law.icc.irc.2012/icc.irc.2012#page/n21/mode/2up


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## crazyboy (Nov 8, 2008)

We do both.


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## T&K (Jun 18, 2012)

We are made to put in the 120v with 9v battery backup alarms that are all linked together. If the homeowner wants them tied to the alarm system, we put a 120v coil ice cube relay in that is powered from the signal wire on the alarms, and the alarm company just uses the contacts off the relay. They (being the low voltage company) don't like it because they don't get to sell smoke alarms, but oh well


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