# Was my estimate way off?



## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

That seems terribly low to me, but what’s you labor into it? What’s your OH? Do you properly pay all your bennies, including retirement, vacation, and holidays?

I do honestly think that your price is either fine or low, but we all have different op expenses and live in different areas.

My #1 question is how much labor, including off job time, will this take?


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## PokeySmokey (Nov 14, 2017)

Customer was not ready for a price that high. Many people have no idea what is involved in renovations of any kind especially electrical renovations. Also the customer may be waiting on at least 2 other estimates for comparison.

I have often rejected estimates that were way too low in comparison to the others. Low balling a job can be a disaster for both the contractor and the customer..


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## Ekoostik9 (Mar 2, 2020)

Switched said:


> That seems terribly low to me, but what’s you labor into it? What’s your OH? Do you properly pay all your bennies, including retirement, vacation, and holidays?
> 
> I do honestly think that your price is either fine or low, but we all have different op expenses and live in different areas.
> 
> My #1 question is how much labor, including off job time, will this take?


Im estimating 18 hours time on and off job.Of course that number could go up. I hear you about bennies and retirement and OH. My OH is low at the moment and I am putting away some money. I’m still in my “get the business off the ground stage”.Really trying to hit numbers correctly as to not low ball my market and fellow electricians.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

Bro...

You low

Way low Bro

I know most solo dudes shoot for $1k a day, but that is for straight labor. You got materials all tied up in it.

I’d say raise your price and then really start learning the craft of selling, it’s more important than you realize.


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## Ekoostik9 (Mar 2, 2020)

PokeySmokey said:


> Customer was not ready for a price that high. Many people have no idea what is involved in renovations of any kind especially electrical renovations. Also the customer may be waiting on at least 2 other estimates for comparison.
> 
> I have often rejected estimates that were way too low in comparison to the others. Low balling a job can be a disaster for both the contractor and the customer..


Are you saying I’m low? Or high?


Switched said:


> Bro...
> 
> You low
> 
> ...


basically was shooting for 1k/day. Have about 500 in material. That is if my time to do the job would be correct. Figuring 18 hours time on and off job. But I agree, I feel low also.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

I just installed 9 recessed cans in my living room. A friend of mine asked how much I charge for that.

I did up a quote; $2,200 - $2,500. Tiles him maybe $350-$400 in materials.

He crapped his pants and said never mind.

I have most of my cost calculation spreadsheets on my phone. I pulled it out and showed him. He was floored at what it actually costs.

Now if I did the same thing wit most contractors, they would also be floored.

You need to learn your cost of business and then charge accordingly. But even learning that won’t do you any good without learning how to sell yourself, your services, and your business.

You have to provide enough value to justify your costs.


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## mofos be cray (Nov 14, 2016)

All that first floor fishing is bound to **** up. I hope you factored in some snake **** in your 18 hours because I just about guarantee something will go sideways.


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## ppsh (Jan 2, 2014)

Seems low on hours if you're fishing all of that. Last 1st floor can install I did was eight 4" cans, pulled back the old center light switch leg to power the cans, installed a dimmer at existing switch location. No patching besides the old center light box. Took me and a 1st year apprentice 7.5 hours. Getting a fish rod to go through 3-4 joists sucks. Drilling 3-4 bays blind really sucks too. Hard to flex bit safely past 2 joists, I have sent a flex bit between the subfloor and carpet twice trying to get that 3rd joist, wonderful feeling when the customer asks "Is there supposed to be a bulge under the carpet in the master bedroom?" You also run the risk of hitting sprinkler pipes, pex water lines, ducting, subfeeds, the list goes on. 

I've gotten lucky in some of the newer homes that use truss floor framing, cuts labor by at least half.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

ppsh said:


> Seems low on hours if you're fishing all of that. Last 1st floor can install I did was eight 4" cans, pulled back the old center light switch leg to power the cans, installed a dimmer at existing switch location. No patching besides the old center light box. Took me and a 1st year apprentice 7.5 hours. Getting a fish rod to go through 3-4 joists sucks. *Drilling 3-4 bays blind really sucks too. Hard to flex bit safely past 2 joists, I have sent a flex bit between the subfloor and carpet twice trying to get that 3rd joist*, wonderful feeling when the customer asks "Is there supposed to be a bulge under the carpet in the master bedroom?" You also run the risk of hitting sprinkler pipes, pex water lines, ducting, subfeeds, the list goes on.
> 
> I've gotten lucky in some of the newer homes that use truss floor framing, cuts labor by at least half.


This is one reason I will not drill blind, the other is plumbing, duct, and gas lines. 

Screw that, I am cutting the rock all day long. They don't like that, get another EC. If there is a crawl or attic, I'll fish. But no way in heck I am drilling blind on floor joists. Not just the fact that you can't see what's on the other side, but you really should be drilling in specific areas.


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## MotoGP1199 (Aug 11, 2014)

Wow, your price was definitely low. The only way I can see you not getting it is if they decide to not do it or they go with a trunk slammer who has no licensing or overhead.

You *HAVE* to also add in extra profit to cover for return visits. That way if something doesn't work(defective part, idiot customer, etc) you can go back, look like a nice guy/hero and you won't loose money on your time. If your price is fair or higher but you are Johnny on the spot when stuff goes wrong, they will remember how you took care of them without hesitation. If you charge right you won't feel bad about going back either. If your price it too low you won't want to go back, your attitude will most likely reflect that when you are there.

Remember if your price point is 1k for labor for a day, that is for an 8 hour day, not a 10 or 12 hour day. My Labor estimates account for driving to get parts, pulling permits, paperwork, etc. (They don't see that, but if they ask, I will explain). Once you get established you will be turning jobs down left and right that don't pay what you are worth. Yes you are worth that, don't low ball your self.


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## HertzHound (Jan 22, 2019)

Shouldn’t this be in a private area, like the Buisiness section.


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

Ekoostik9 said:


> I don’t do much resi stuff.


I haven't done any residential since the late 70's. For me, non residential work was much more appealing. 

Your price was low according to you and the experts on this site.

IMO you have run into an undesirable customer. Walk away, move to the next job. Be happy you didn't get it.


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

HertzHound said:


> Shouldn’t this be in a private area, like the Buisiness section.


I think it's good to let others see what real costs are.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

There's a lot of good advice above and it sounds like the OP has or is getting a handle on his business. When you've done a number of these you'll have better labor estimates, try not to take too bad of a bath learning that. 

As mentioned homeowners don't have a handle on either the labor involved or realistic sustainable pricing, so it's normal for them to have sticker shock, they just guessed low. If you get agitated when your price is not in line with customer's expectations of price, you have unrealistic expectations of customers' estimating abilities. (What's shock at customer reactions called, sticker-shock shock?) 

It would be nice to discuss the sales aspect of managing this, even if you don't get the work, but that would definitely be a discussion for the private forum.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

oldsparky52 said:


> I think it's good to let others see what real costs are.


Sure, everything should be free and everything should be everybody's! 

It is easy to be idealistic when you're well off and retired 😄


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

splatz said:


> Sure, everything should be free and everything should be everybody's!
> 
> It is easy to be idealistic when you're well off and retired 😄


Got me again


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## Ekoostik9 (Mar 2, 2020)

oldsparky52 said:


> I haven't done any residential since the late 70's. For me, non residential work was much more appealing.
> 
> Your price was low according to you and the experts on this site.
> 
> IMO you have run into an undesirable customer. Walk away, move to the next job. Be happy you didn't get it.


Just realized I feel the same way! Homeowners are tough to


splatz said:


> There's a lot of good advice above and it sounds like the OP has or is getting a handle on his business. When you've done a number of these you'll have better labor estimates, try not to take too bad of a bath learning that.
> 
> As mentioned homeowners don't have a handle on either the labor involved or realistic sustainable pricing, so it's normal for them to have sticker shock, they just guessed low. If you get agitated when your price is not in line with customer's expectations of price, you have unrealistic expectations of customers' estimating abilities. (What's shock at customer reactions called, sticker-shock shock?)
> 
> It would be nice to discuss the sales aspect of managing this, even if you don't get the work, but that would definitely be a discussion for the private forum.


I was unaware there is a private forum! Lol. But yes I’m learning pretty quick homeowners are a tough bunch, mainly because of their unrealistic views on cost. Seems like every homeowner wants to throw the “we don’t have a lot of money” statement in at some point during the meeting. 

So far my labor estimates have been a bit off when doing resi service work and I def need to dial that in, I need to do a better job of billing for the off job things.

I would love to discuss the sales aspect!! I’m seeing the sales aspect come in to these replies, I think I need to work on this.


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## Ekoostik9 (Mar 2, 2020)

mofos be cray said:


> All that first floor fishing is bound to *** up. I hope you factored in some snake *** in your 18 hours because I just about guarantee something will go sideways.


I made it pretty clear to the homeowner that more than likely there will be some drywall patching involved. I’ll do my best to avoid holes. I do know some guys that don’t Have a problem drilling blind through 3-4 joists and somehow they never hit stuff. I don’t have that confidence or reckless abandon I should say lol!


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## Ekoostik9 (Mar 2, 2020)

HertzHound said:


> Shouldn’t this be in a private area, like the Buisiness section.


Apologies if this should be somewhere else. I’m unaware of the Private area. Show me the light..


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## HertzHound (Jan 22, 2019)

Ekoostik9 said:


> Apologies if this should be somewhere else. I’m unaware of the Private area. Show me the light..


When you are logged in, look at the list of sub forums. One is the Buisiness lounge. It will only be there if your logged in and met a certain amount of post counts.

IDK, maybe it is good that the average customer sees this post? Maybe they’ll realize all the costs that go into running a Buisiness and see how it reflects the hourly rate? They still won’t care.


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

splatz said:


> Sure, everything should be free and everything should be everybody's!
> 
> It is easy to be idealistic when you're well off and retired 😄


Not sure what letting people see the real costs has to do with "everything should be free and everything should be everybody's!". You are reading way more into this than is there. You are letting your perception of me dictate what you think I said. 

And, well off is a perception. I am debt free and am able to live off of my SS check. Some money in the bank, but not enough to brag about. So, to some I'm very well off, to others I worked awfully hard to not have more than I do.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

oldsparky52 said:


> Not sure what letting people see the real costs has to do with "everything should be free and everything should be everybody's!". You are reading way more into this than is there. You are letting your perception of me dictate what you think I said.
> 
> And, well off is a perception. I am debt free and am able to live off of my SS check. Some money in the bank, but not enough to brag about. So, to some I'm very well off, to others I worked awfully hard to not have more than I do.


Fair enough, you are probably right, I apologize.


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

splatz said:


> Fair enough, you are probably right, I apologize.


No worries.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HertzHound said:


> When you are logged in, look at the list of sub forums. One is the Buisiness lounge. It will only be there if your logged in and met a certain amount of post counts.
> 
> IDK, maybe it is good that the average customer sees this post? Maybe they’ll realize all the costs that go into running a Buisiness and see how it reflects the hourly rate? They still won’t care.


I see Business Lounge as an area to discuss particularly sensitive topics. This thread is generic enough that I don’t see issues with it being in the public forum. I agree, it may help to educate the general public.


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## mofos be cray (Nov 14, 2016)

HertzHound said:


> Shouldn’t this be in a private area, like the Buisiness section.


Op doesn't have enough posts


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

You can’t read much into silence from a customer. Maybe he’s price shopping or maybe he blew his bank account on Christmas gift giving; you just don’t know. 

If I’m quoting a job that I’m interested in, I like to leave an opening for future discussion. The breaker shortage has been good for that. I can contact a customer after quoting and say, “I have located Square D breakers; would you like me to put them away for you?” It beats saying, “What did you think of my quote?”.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

A job like this is much better with two people. You don’t need a full time apprentice, even the kid next door can be useful if he has half a brain in his head and wants to make a few bucks. If you arrive on site, two people all tooled up ready to go with a game plan, the customer sees what he’s paying for. There’s something about one guy with a tool pouch that makes some people think he can be had for cheap.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

99cents said:


> You can’t read much into silence from a customer. Maybe he’s price shopping or maybe he blew his bank account on Christmas gift giving; you just don’t know.
> ...


Don't leave out the fact that some people are shrewd and cheap customers, and part of that is an act that you're asking them for the Hope Diamond.My father used to try to convince the cashiers in Sears that they could knock off the tax if he paid cash. He'd pump 10 buck of gas in the car and ask the guy 3 times WHAT? HOW MUCH? WaHHHHHH? After asking for 10 bucks. I have older siblings that were twins, dad was pissed my delivery bill wasn't 1/2 price.


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

@Ekoostik9 Price and move on don't depend on a job you quoted. Most customers do not realize the cost incurred doing this. One of the most common mistakes is listing material and costs because " I can get that online for " comes out of their mouth, they don't think about time to order, pick up, or stock something. Except for some special lighting don't let them get material.
In the dog eat dog world out their with trunk slammers and *__* list online get 1 in 10 jobs you quote and you are doing good. Look for repeat customers.
Cowboy


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

99cents said:


> I see Business Lounge as an area to discuss particularly sensitive topics. This thread is generic enough that I don’t see issues with it being in the public forum. I agree, it may help to educate the general public.


Wow a moderator decision in your first weeks, good job.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

99cents said:


> I see Business Lounge as an area to discuss particularly sensitive topics. This thread is generic enough that I don’t see issues with it being in the public forum. I agree, it may help to educate the general public.


I didn't have to supply proof of my credentials when I signed up. I might be a plumber and a good liar. Who would know?


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

joe-nwt said:


> I didn't have to supply proof of my credentials when I signed up. I might be a plumber and a good liar. Who would know?


Might? 🤣


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## Ekoostik9 (Mar 2, 2020)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Don't leave out the fact that some people are shrewd and cheap customers, and part of that is an act that you're asking them for the Hope Diamond.My father used to try to convince the cashiers in Sears that they could knock off the tax if he paid cash. He'd pump 10 buck of gas in the car and ask the guy 3 times WHAT? HOW MUCH? WaHHHHHH? After asking for 10 bucks. I have older siblings that were twins, dad was pissed my delivery bill wasn't 1/2 price.


This WINS! Lol 😂


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## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

joe-nwt said:


> I didn't have to supply proof of my credentials when I signed up. I might be a plumber and a good liar. Who would know?


I always figured you were a plumber... no sensible electrician would stay in Yellowknife for more then a long weekend!

Happy New Year!
Cheers
John


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## Quickservice (Apr 23, 2020)

Ekoostik9 said:


> I don’t do much resi stuff. New home built by Ryan homes I believe 4 or 5 years old.
> 
> 1st floor:
> Customer wants 6- 6” recess added in L.R. Only an existing paddle fan is there. And 3 pendant lights over kitchen island. L.R switched from one location within an existing bank of switches, same with pendants. This is on first floor so fishing will be tough especially the switches. It’s a big space. Dimmers on both recess and pendants. Also wants one track light to illuminate fireplace. Switched near fireplace.
> ...


I think you are too low, but surely you have experienced the fact that clients have no clue what all is involved and frequently get sticker shock. Not long ago I had a lady tell me I was crazy when I quoted her $1,000 for a panel update, when actually I was trying to give her a break because she was a widow on a fixed income.


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## Ekoostik9 (Mar 2, 2020)

Quickservice said:


> I think you are too low, but surely you have experienced the fact that clients have no clue what all is involved and frequently get sticker shock. Not long ago I had a lady tell me I was crazy when I quoted her $1,000 for a panel update, when actually I was trying to give her a break because she was a widow on a fixed income.


For Sure I’ve experienced this... all the time. It was more of a question about my price for said work. Like I said I don’t do a whole lot of residential. But it’s starting to come my way more and more.


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## NoBot (Oct 12, 2019)

6 - 6" cans in living room  $1,500
2 - switches with dimmer. $175
3 - island pendants. $600
5 recess in Master Bed. $1,150
3 bedrooms center light $750
3 switches. $750
Total $4,925. includes no patching, no painting,


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## Ekoostik9 (Mar 2, 2020)

NoBot said:


> 6 - 6" cans in living room $1,500
> 2 - switches with dimmer. $175
> 3 - island pendants. $600
> 5 recess in Master Bed. $1,150
> ...


Hmmmm...... I should re send the customer another invoice and tell them I miscalculated!! Lol


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## Forge Boyz (Nov 7, 2014)

And to take this a little off topic: Today's job.
"I need some wiring done in my basement."
I get there and it is drywalled and painted with wires pulled into boxes. He shows me the lights he wants hung and the receptacles to be installed. His buddy pulled the wires. "He's not an electrician but he knows enough to be dangerous." His actual words. 
Me: We don't give a firm price to jobs like this where someone else pulled the wires for us to finish out. To many unknowns.
Him: I can see where you are coming from. 
Me: For me to give a firm price I would need to spend a bunch of time checking things out and then that would need to be billed as troubleshooting. What if he missed a wire somewhere?
Him: I'm an engineer. A P.E. so I know it was done right.
Me: Yea. We don't give a firm price on something like this. 
Him: what's your hourly rate? 
I tell him.
Him: How about you give me 6 hours and see how much you get done.
SMH! 


Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Running the wires and laying out the cable / circuits is engineer's work. THe dog work of "just" finishing the receptacles, switches and hanging fixtures is beneath them.


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## Rainwater01 (Oct 6, 2015)

Ekoostik9 said:


> I made it pretty clear to the homeowner that more than likely there will be some drywall patching involved. I’ll do my best to avoid holes. I do know some guys that don’t Have a problem drilling blind through 3-4 joists and somehow they never hit stuff. I don’t have that confidence or reckless abandon I should say lol!


I did a job last year where I was able pull the carpet up upstairs bore some 4” holes in the subfloor so I could see the joists to bore them. Then all the customer had to do was restretch the carpet. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mobius87 (May 20, 2019)

Definitely don't sweat someone not calling you back. You can't win them all, and sometimes it doesn't have anything to do with you. 

Almost two years ago I quoted an acreage service job for a guy, and after I sent the quote I didn't hear a peep. It was a PITA job and I priced it accordingly, so I just figured I'd gone too high and moved on. Got a call yesterday from a POCO linesman; they were prepping their end of the service and were told to call me to confirm some details on how I would be handling the job. Took me a while to clue into who/what the POCO guy was talking about, since I hadn't quoted anything similar for some time.

I actually still haven't heard back from the client, but it sounds I got the job 😂. The quote isn't even valid anymore, I'll have to re-quote it if/when he calls.


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

Mobius87 said:


> I actually still haven't heard back from the client, but it sounds I got the job 😂. The quote isn't even valid anymore, I'll have to re-quote it if/when he calls.


I think I might call the customer and see if you can't close the deal.


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## Malywr (Jan 23, 2018)

Ekoostik9 said:


> I don’t do much resi stuff. New home built by Ryan homes I believe 4 or 5 years old.
> 
> 1st floor:
> Customer wants 6- 6” recess added in L.R. Only an existing paddle fan is there. And 3 pendant lights over kitchen island. L.R switched from one location within an existing bank of switches, same with pendants. This is on first floor so fishing will be tough especially the switches. It’s a big space. Dimmers on both recess and pendants. Also wants one track light to illuminate fireplace. Switched near fireplace.
> ...


I am glad I found this post 
I am new contractor too. I am starting my business too and trying to get new jobs and quote low and still don’t get job 
Maybe price was to low to compare with other quotes customer had or just didn’t sell my work well enough. 
One customer referred by my friend wants just 4 recess light in disabled dons bedroom at good affordable price because they are poor and have disable son. when I arrived he asked me to quote him whole house recess lights 
3 bedrooms 4 lamps each, Master bedroom 8 lamps , living room 12’ high ceiling 8 lamps, dining room 4 lamps. Kitchen 4 lamps, hall ways first and second floor 3 lamps each and maybe one surface lamp in closet. 2 bathrooms with 2 lamps. Every room and bathroom with dimmer 
Right away i had filing like there is something not wright but I taught i can get more work. i gave them really good price 
Next day customer wants me to price each room separately. I did it. Day after he call me and set 
It is to much money and he will not do it 
He mentioned that person who referred me ( friend of mine) set whole job not supposed to be more than $1600. 
I told him to ask that person to do it.


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## Ekoostik9 (Mar 2, 2020)

Malywr said:


> I am glad I found this post
> I am new contractor too. I am starting my business too and trying to get new jobs and quote low and still don’t get job
> Maybe price was to low to compare with other quotes customer had or just didn’t sell my work well enough.
> One customer referred by my friend wants just 4 recess light in disabled dons bedroom at good affordable price because they are poor and have disable son. when I arrived he asked me to quote him whole house recess lights
> ...


One thing you learn quick is that EVERYONE is poor and needs a "good" price. Ignore that and charge what you need to charge.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

You gotta eat and, if you’re just starting out, you might be picking low hanging fruit for awhile. Here’s some advice:

Don’t expose yourself financially. Ask for money up front for materials and permits (you should never be shy about asking for money anyway). Aim for 80% on rough-in completion. Always stay ahead of the game.

Don’t be Mr. Wonderful and do extras at no charge. Quote on a specific scope of work. When extras are discussed, quote them ASAP and don’t proceed without clearance.

Do small hit and run jobs. You don’t want to get stuck on a big money loser, small money losers are easier to digest.

Keep raising prices until you get a good feel for it. Cheap customers will refer you to their cheap friends. That doesn’t make you obligated to lose money on their cheap friends.

You’re the one quoting the price, not the customer. If the customer has “X” amount of money to spend, that’s fine, give him a good, better, best or even a good and best. He needs to understand the relationship between time, material and money.


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## joab (Dec 28, 2019)

99cents said:


> You gotta eat and, if you’re just starting out, you might be picking low hanging fruit for awhile. Here’s some advice:
> 
> Don’t expose yourself financially. Ask for money up front for materials and permits (you should never be shy about asking for money anyway). Aim for 80% on rough-in completion. Always stay ahead of the game.
> 
> ...


For guys just starting off, this is an excellent description of the “gut feeling” that contractors develop.


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## Ekoostik9 (Mar 2, 2020)

joab said:


> For guys just starting off, this is an excellent description of the “gut feeling” that contractors develop.


The gut feeling happens pretty often lol. You can tell pretty much right away when a homeowner is way off on what he thinks it’s going to cost compared to what the estimate comes in at.
From what I’m gathering it’s more about selling the work than anything with new potential customers. The “You get 1 out of 10 jobs” statement is pretty accurate!!


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Ekoostik9 said:


> The gut feeling happens pretty often lol. You can tell pretty much right away when a homeowner is way off on what he thinks it’s going to cost compared to what the estimate comes in at.
> From what I’m gathering it’s more about selling the work than anything with new potential customers. The “You get 1 out of 10 jobs” statement is pretty accurate!!


Selling is at least 50% mental. You can’t sell something you don’t believe in and, with contracting, you’re selling yourself. You don’t sell yourself through bragging, arrogance and trashing the other guy, you sell yourself through confidence. You need to study body language, projecting your voice, looking your customer in the eye, getting your point across with few words, asking questions and waiting for answers.

I spent half my career in sales and, early on, I practised in front of the mirror.


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