# For discussion



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Wrapping up a trim out today, wiring the outside unit. The disconnect was already mounted at rough in. (2 years ago) I unroll two runs of red #10 Thwn, and realize I don't have any green. I decide to use the bare out of NM. Technically, although not dangerous, I think it's a code violation. Is the bare ground out of it's sheath from NM legal ,in LNFC with (2) #10's outside?


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

Yes, it is legal.

250.118(1) Says a copper conductor insulated or bare can be used as an EGC.

The 2 #10's would have to be THWN but the EGC could be a bare copper wire.

Chris


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

raider1 said:


> Yes, it is legal.
> 
> 250.118(1) Says a copper conductor insulated or bare can be used as an EGC.
> 
> ...


Doesn't it have to be rated for use in a damp location?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

gold said:


> Doesn't it have to be rated for use in a damp location?



THWN is. That's what the W stands for.... Wet location.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

I agree with Chris. I've done that many times. I've even stripped the thwn and used it.


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

480sparky said:


> THWN is. That's what the W stands for.... Wet location.


Right. I know I'm splitting hairs but is thwn still thwn once you strip it? And is the solid wire in a piece of nm WITH NO MARKINGS thWn? 

I'm asking because I dont know. I'm not just trying to be right.
I was under the impression NM was NOT rated for damp locations hence why we cant just sleeve it through carflex and forget it. 

Not that I have never done it anyway.

edit to add

Would stripping a piece of the thwn been better? Not that it really matters but technically ..


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

What size was the bare conductor?


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

Bare copper is suitable for use in a wet location for equipment grounding and bonding.

We use bare #6 and #4 all the time for connecting ground rods and concrete encased electrodes.

Chris


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

gold said:


> Doesn't it have to be rated for use in a damp location?





480sparky said:


> THWN is. That's what the W stands for.... Wet location.





gold said:


> Right. I know I'm splitting hairs but is thwn still thwn once you strip it? And is the solid wire in a piece of nm WITH NO MARKINGS thWn?
> 
> I'm asking because I dont know. I'm not just trying to be right.
> I was under the impression NM was NOT rated for damp locations hence why we cant just sleeve it through carflex and forget it.
> ...


What the hell are you guys talking about? :001_huh:

He used the BARE grounding conductor from the NM.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

gold said:


> Right. I know I'm splitting hairs but is thwn still thwn once you strip it? And is the solid wire in a piece of nm WITH NO MARKINGS thWn?
> ............


The letters apply to the insulation. Remove it, and you have copper. There is no such thing as THHN copper, or THWN copper or THW copper. It's _copper_. Plain, old *Cu*, nothing more. Same copper as the #4 bare I run to my ground rods.


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

knowshorts said:


> What size was the bare conductor?


Provided that it meets the requirements of 250.122 for the overcurrent protective device it should not matter what size the bare wire is.

Chris


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

Right. I kinda thought I was being overly critical anyway.


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

raider1 said:


> Provided that it meets the requirements of 250.122 for the overcurrent protective device it should not matter what size the bare wire is.
> 
> Chris


I asked because it was never stated and when I hear romex, I envision 14. I know hvac equipment has different rules, but this topic is up for discussion.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

knowshorts said:


> ......and when I hear romex, I envision 14. .........


How do you think 20a kitchen, bath & laundry circuits get run in houses? 30 amps for the air conditioner, dryer and water heater? 40 or 50 amps for the range?


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> I agree with Chris. I've done that many times. I've even stripped the thwn and used it.


 
I've done it, and don't think it's dangerous, but If you split hairs, I think it's a violation.



gold said:


> Right. I know I'm splitting hairs but is thwn still thwn once you strip it? And is the solid wire in a piece of nm WITH NO MARKINGS thWn?
> 
> 
> I'm asking because I dont know. I'm not just trying to be right.
> ...


 
That's my point, when you take NM out of it's sheath, it has no ratings. Same thing for ground?



knowshorts said:


> What size was the bare conductor?


#10



electricmanscott said:


> What the hell are you guys talking about? :001_huh:
> 
> He used the BARE grounding conductor from the NM.


Yep



gold said:


> Right. I kinda thought I was being overly critical anyway.


 
I think the same, I can't use the conductors out of their sheath, but I can use the ground?:no: Not sure about that


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> I think the same, I can't use the conductors out of their sheath, but I can use the ground?:no: Not sure about that




A bare conductor is not required to be marked......:whistling2:
You can't use the conductors out of romex because a single conductors insulation is required to be marked with the insulation type and voltage rating. 
A bare conductor is a bare conductor just like a naked lady is a naked lady.:laughing:


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

jwjrw said:


> A bare conductor is not required to be marked......:whistling2:
> You can't use the conductors out of romex because a single conductors insulation is required to be marked with the type and voltage.
> A bare conductor is a bare conductor just like (a naked lady is a naked lady).:laughing:


 IDK, I have seen some that I would doubt!!!:laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

oldtimer said:


> IDK, I have seen some that I would doubt!!!:laughing::laughing::laughing:




:laughing:
Didn't someone say "what kinda strip clubs you hanging out in?"


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

I'ts ground, I've done the same thing at times just get's expensive wasting 10/2 for a ground.....I'd probably cheat and run 12 green to the 1965 code.


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

It's bare...I think it's legal to do that...


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

raider1 said:


> Bare copper is suitable for use in a wet location for equipment grounding and bonding.
> 
> We use bare #6 and #4 all the time for connecting ground rods and concrete encased electrodes.
> 
> Chris


Ground rods on the exterior of buildings and connected to water pipes.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

jwjrw said:


> A bare conductor is a bare conductor just like a naked lady is a naked lady.:laughing:


I saw a few in bikinis at the beach that are a violation sure as hell never want to see them naked.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

brian john said:


> I saw a few in bikinis at the beach that are a violation sure as hell never want to see them naked.


No such thing as bikinis on the beaches here.

Hell there's usually not even any PEOPLE on our beaches.


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

480sparky said:


> How do you think 20a kitchen, bath & laundry circuits get run in houses? 30 amps for the air conditioner, dryer and water heater? 40 or 50 amps for the range?


I rarely dabble in residential. What's the going rate for 10/2 romex? All I know is I think I would pull another red and either throw some green tape on the ends of it or strip it back at both make up spots. Sure it's still red in the conduit, but current is color blind. You already have the 10 in your work area, why go back to the truck and destroy a piece of romex?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

knowshorts said:


> .............. What's the going rate for 10/2 romex?...........


0.037¢ ft².


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

480sparky said:


> 0.037¢ ft².


Damn that's cheap. Gotta go to HD and buy all their 10 romex and have the boy strip it for me so I can repull it in all the 3 phase 30 amp circuits I need to install next week. I'll even have money left over to give the bare ground to him for payment.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

knowshorts said:


> i rarely dabble in residential. What's the going rate for 10/2 romex? All i know is i think i would pull another red and either throw some green tape on the ends of it or strip it back at both make up spots. Sure it's still red in the conduit, but current is color blind. You already have the 10 in your work area, why go back to the truck and destroy a piece of romex?


 


250.119...........


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> 250.119...........




I thought he was kidding around. You think he was really serious?:laughing:


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> I thought he was kidding around. You think he was really serious?:laughing:


 

I do...........


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

I was being serious. If the code is all about safety, please tell me how it is ok to strip or re-identify a number 6 or larger (250.119 A1 and A2) but not a number 10. Sure it is a code rule, you got me there, but how is it not safe? Will the grounding conductor decide it doesn't want to do it's job because he's a little small and is red in the middle? Would any other electrician doubt the re-identified or striped conductor was not the grounding conductor when they can plainly see it terminating at a bonding point?


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

knowshorts said:


> I was being serious. If the code is all about safety, please tell me how it is ok to strip or re-identify a number 6 or larger (250.119 A1 and A2) but not a number 10. Sure it is a code rule, you got me there, but how is it not safe? Will the grounding conductor decide it doesn't want to do it's job because he's a little small and is red in the middle? Would any other electrician doubt the re-identified or striped conductor was not the grounding conductor when they can plainly see it terminating at a bonding point?


 
Nobody said it's not safe, they said it's not up to code.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

erics37 said:


> No such thing as bikinis on the beaches here.
> 
> Hell there's usually not even any PEOPLE on our beaches.


How far are you from Coo's Bay?

Ashland?


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