# Why are they still making Stab-ins?



## BSK3720 (Mar 29, 2014)

I was in a CE class in Alabama where the conversation turned to "Stab in the Back" switches and receptacles. The consensus was that they have a high failure rate and electricians never use them. Is this a DIY feature? Does anybody know why they are still making them?


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

BSK3720 said:


> I was in a CE class in Alabama where the conversation turned to "Stab in the Back" switches and receptacles. The consensus was that they have a high failure rate and electricians never use them. Is this a DIY feature? Does anybody know why they are still making them?


Money.

They are referred to as " profit holes"


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## NotApprvd4Electric (Jul 16, 2014)

The consensus in your Alabama class was completely wrong, electrician use the back stabs all the time.

They still make them because the customers (electrician) still want them. 

There is nothing wrong with backstabbing, it's just internet rumors. The houses I work in are very often all backstabbed, yet I have more service calls for malfunctioning breakers than loose backstabs. Should they stop selling breakers?? :laughing: 

It's just like the SquareD QO gossip, the internet will tell you how they are the best breakers, but I have had more calls for malfunctioning QO's than any other breaker.


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

NotApprvd4Electric said:


> The consensus in your Alabama class was completely wrong, electrician use the back stabs all the time. They still make them because the customers (electrician) still want them. There is nothing wrong with backstabbing, it's just internet rumors. The houses I work in are very often all backstabbed, yet I have more service calls for malfunctioning breakers than loose backstabs. Should they stop selling breakers?? :laughing: It's just like the SquareD QO gossip, the internet will tell you how they are the best breakers, but I have had more calls for malfunctioning QO's than any other breaker.


I would have to say about 70 percent of our service calls wind up being back stabbed devices. 

Primarily the only ones still backstabbing are the cheap end tract guys.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

NotApprvd4Electric said:


> The consensus in your Alabama class was completely wrong, electrician use the back stabs all the time.
> 
> They still make them because the customers (electrician) still want them.
> 
> ...


If you don't know the history of the breaker, you can't blame the manufacturer.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

NotApprvd4Electric said:


> The consensus in your Alabama class was completely wrong, electrician use the back stabs all the time.
> 
> They still make them because the customers (electrician) still want them.
> 
> ...


When ever the HO calls and says they have a string of recepts not working, plan on finding backstabs. Backwire maybe, backstab never. Perfectly legal but perfectly worthless. Not worth the melted recept and cover. Plus the burn marks on the sheetrock!!! And, by the way, QO is the only way to go!:thumbsup::laughing:


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## garfield (Jul 30, 2009)

I concur on backstab receptacles failing at a much higher rate.


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

BSK3720 said:


> I was in a CE class in Alabama where the conversation turned to "Stab in the Back" switches and receptacles. The consensus was that they have a high failure rate and electricians never use them. Is this a DIY feature? Does anybody know why they are still making them?


DIY feature


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## Voltron (Sep 14, 2012)

Some of the guys I work with backstab. Supposedly it's "faster" I don't think it's difference enough to justify using them and if we ever have any failures, it's always a result of this. Every once in a while I'll backstab a device, but just one and then remember that I take pride in my work.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

NotApprvd4Electric said:


> ..........There is nothing wrong with backstabbing, it's just internet rumors. ......



So the 17 service calls I did last year that were caused by backstabs failing are just rumors?

Can someone start a rumor about me winning the lottery?


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## Hippie (May 12, 2011)

wendon said:


> When ever the HO calls and says they have a string of recepts not working, plan on finding backstabs. Backwire maybe, backstab never. Perfectly legal but perfectly worthless. Not worth the melted recept and cover. Plus the burn marks on the sheetrock!!! And, by the way, QO is the only way to go!:thumbsup::laughing:


every time i get one of these calls thats what i hope to find, but most of the time it turns out to be something else. a few times its been a tripped gfi up the line but mostly its because 90% of the houses here are sitting maybe a foot off of constantly damp soil and all the wiring is run underneath. most common failure is a staple thats been driven too tight that eventually causes a break in the wire.


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## retiredsparktech (Mar 8, 2011)

wendon said:


> When ever the HO calls and says they have a string of recepts not working, plan on finding backstabs. Backwire maybe, backstab never. Perfectly legal but perfectly worthless. Not worth the melted recept and cover. Plus the burn marks on the sheetrock!!! And, by the way, QO is the only way to go!:thumbsup::laughing:


Backstab never, backwire always. Especially when using THHN, 12 stranded. IT's a royal PITA, to terminate stranded on the terminal screws.
I've seen reverse strand twist, insulation left on the end to keep the strands together. To me, it doesn't look that good.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

If you didn't have backstabs it would mean pigtailing when you are hooking 12 wires up to a receptacle outlet...... oh, 13 when grounding... ..... . .. . 



way too much work man, way too much.


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

retiredsparktech said:


> Backstab never, backwire always. Especially when using THHN, 12 stranded. IT's a royal PITA, to terminate stranded on the terminal screws.
> I've seen reverse strand twist, insulation left on the end to keep the strands together. To me, it doesn't look that good.


Backstabbing 12 wire is against code


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

robnj772 said:


> Backstabbing 12 wire is against code


Only with receptacles manufactured after 2000.


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

Looks like you don't have a choice with these suckers...


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

retiredsparktech said:


> Backstab never, backwire always. Especially when using THHN, 12 stranded. IT's a royal PITA, to terminate stranded on the terminal screws.
> I've seen reverse strand twist, insulation left on the end to keep the strands together. To me, it doesn't look that good.


Crimp on connectors.


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## FrunkSlammer (Aug 31, 2013)

Backstabbing failures isn't the fault of backstabbing, it's the fault of not pigtailing. 

Pigtailing paralleled devices should be a requirement in the codebook. I can find just as many terminal screw failures as pushpin failures when it comes to not pig tailing.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

FrunkSlammer said:


> Backstabbing failures isn't the fault of backstabbing, it's the fault of not pigtailing.
> 
> Pigtailing paralleled devices should be a requirement in the codebook. I can find just as many terminal screw failures as pushpin failures when it comes to not pig tailing.












macmike alway say...... Baroney. Far far more backstabs failures than screws , unless it is done by untrained, in which case backstab is better.


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## zen (Jun 15, 2009)

Almost every call I have gotten where something plugged in either stopped working and or something else stopped working was a stablock issue ..I seems obvious that over time when things are plugged in it will work the wire loose. . I would never stab a outlet always pigtail to 20 amp outlet. I do prefer stab connectors

learning to learn


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

FrunkSlammer said:


> Backstabbing failures isn't the fault of backstabbing, it's the fault of not pigtailing.
> 
> Pigtailing paralleled devices should be a requirement in the codebook. I can find just as many terminal screw failures as pushpin failures when it comes to not pig tailing.


Is your name Left Lucy?


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## retiredsparktech (Mar 8, 2011)

wendon said:


> Crimp on connectors.


That's what I did! Especially on a porcelain keyless.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

FrunkSlammer said:


> Backstabbing failures isn't the fault of backstabbing, it's the fault of not pigtailing.
> 
> Pigtailing paralleled devices should be a requirement in the codebook. I can find just as many terminal screw failures as pushpin failures when it comes to not pig tailing.


I work on enough newer houses that have been slammed together by hacks and crews of apprentices to know that pigtailing would solve nothing and probably cause more problems. It's routine for me to pull wires out of a device box and have the wire nuts fall off. This is either the work of guys who have no pride in their work or apprentices who haven't been taught any better.

Pigtailing would just cause another splice and another reason for failure. In fact, these morons are probably better at backstabbing than making a reasonably good twisted wire splice.


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## ButcherSlayer (Oct 4, 2013)

Are you serious? Pigtails are worse then stab ins? I hope your joking


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## zen (Jun 15, 2009)

I thought we are not suppised to use the device as a splice point

learning to learn


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## NotApprvd4Electric (Jul 16, 2014)

zen said:


> I thought we are not suppised to use the device as a splice point
> 
> learning to learn


Nope, it's perfectly fine to do that.


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## zen (Jun 15, 2009)

300.13 b

learning to learn


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## NotApprvd4Electric (Jul 16, 2014)

zen said:


> 300.13 b
> 
> learning to learn


Read the first 4 words of the article you cited.


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## zen (Jun 15, 2009)

Ok I figured out the answer to the orginal question. The makers of stablock plugs also sell afci breakers. So they are selling the problem and the sollution . Both sukk

learning to learn


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

I think the failure rate of wiring devices having "push in" connections is more of a function of the quality of the wiring device. I have never seen what I would call a quality wiring device that had a "push-in" connection. The only wiring devices I have ever seen with that type of connection are the cheapest junk that you can buy.


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## zen (Jun 15, 2009)

Yep I was wrong. I still think its a good idea to pigtail

learning to learn


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> I think the failure rate of wiring devices having "push in" connections is more of a function of the quality of the wiring device. I have never seen what I would call a quality wiring device that had a "push-in" connection. The only wiring devices I have ever seen with that type of connection are the cheapest junk that you can buy.


oh? and what quality devices do you install that don't have a push in option?

All levi and p&S resi grade devices have a push in option.

And what pray tell would you consider a quality resi grade device?


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

robnj772 said:


> oh? and what quality devices do you install that don't have a push in option?
> 
> All levi and p&S resi grade devices have a push in option.
> 
> And what pray tell would you consider a quality resi grade device?


I don't believe that any resi grade device is a quality device.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

robnj772 said:


> oh? and what quality devices do you install that don't have a push in option?
> 
> All levi and p&S resi grade devices have a push in option...............



I don't think P&S GFCi's have 'em.....

What about 20a-rated devices?


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> I don't believe that any resi grade device is a quality device.



Ok but see this is the real world where no one puts commercial grade devices in resi settings.

Commercial grade devices would be rated for 20 amps and you cant backs tab 12 wire anyway so i don't even know why you are bringing this up


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

robnj772 said:


> ......... so i don't even know why you are bringing this up



Maybe he's trolling a troll. :whistling2:


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

robnj772 said:


> Ok but see this is the real world where no one puts commercial grade devices in resi settings.
> 
> Commercial grade devices would be rated for 20 amps and you cant backs tab 12 wire anyway so i don't even know why you are bringing this up


I don't do much resi work, but I don't use resi devices when I do. Like I said I have never seen a resi device that I would call a quality device or a resi device that I would use in my house.

As far as the commercial devices, they come in both 15 and 20 amp ratings. 

When you are looking at receptacles of the same product line the only difference between a 15 and a 20 amp device is the slots in the face piece. The current carrying parts are identical.


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> I don't do much resi work, but I don't use resi devices when I do. Like I said I have never seen a resi device that I would call a quality device or a resi device that I would use in my house. As far as the commercial devices, they come in both 15 and 20 amp ratings. When you are looking at receptacles of the same product line the only difference between a 15 and a 20 amp device is the slots in the face piece. The current carrying parts are identical.


 Guys that do resi work don't waste their money on commercial grade outlets, in commercial work outlets are 20 amp, you can't backstab 12 wire.

This is the residential section!


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## zac (May 11, 2009)

robnj772 said:


> Guys that do resi work don't waste their money on commercial grade outlets, in commercial work outlets are 20 amp, you can't backstab 12 wire.
> 
> This is the residential section!


I could have sworn Ive ran into 20 amp back stabbers. Maybe they discontinued them or are a so cal thing?


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

robnj772 said:


> Guys that do resi work don't waste their money on commercial grade outlets, in commercial work outlets are 20 amp, you can't backstab 12 wire.
> 
> This is the residential section!


I have installed thousands of 15 amp commercial grade receptacles. 

I stand by my statement that I have never seen a resi grade device that I would consider a "quality" device.

Like I said I don't do much resi work, but with the labor rate just shy of $2/minute, the price of the device does not make a lot of difference in the total cost.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

zac said:


> I could have sworn Ive ran into 20 amp back stabbers. Maybe they discontinued them or are a so cal thing?


The UL standard for devices was changed to prohibit the use of #12 with a back stab connection about 15 years ago.


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## zac (May 11, 2009)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> The UL standard for devices was changed to prohibit the use of #12 with a back stab connection about 15 years ago.


Thanks. Ive been in the trade over that long but started doing commercial. I do mostly resi and could have sworn I have ran into those little buggers b4!


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## Clarky (Sep 25, 2011)

If you are properly trained electrician from the start you, you won't ever back stab a device, rather attach the wire to the screw


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## zac (May 11, 2009)

Clarky said:


> If you are properly trained electrician from the start you, you won't ever back stab a device, rather attach the wire to the screw


Just make sure it's clockwise!:thumbup:


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