# Unlimited Outdoor Feeders



## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

We have a project where we are intercepting underground service conductors from 4 buildings to install a generator.

The services all come from one pad mounted transformer.
The design is to intercept the feeders and install an underground junction box to splice the existing service conductors and connect them to the load side of an automatic transfer switch. 

The new riser will be one fused 400 amp 3 ph disconnect feeding the normal side of the ATS, generator with 400 amp breaker feeding the emergency side.
The load is scheduled to enter a 120/208, 400 amp, 3R MLO panelboard with 4 three phase breakers 
1- 250 amp
1-225 amp
2-150 amp

*Question based on 240.221:

Do we even need a distribution panel? 
Can we connect the feeders directly to the load side of the ATS??*

Im not trying to be cheap but, I cant buy the Panelboard as designed off of the shelf. One option would be CB enclosures or fused disconnects if we interpret 240.221 does not apply . 

Much thanks for all relevant comments. 



Outside feeder tap of unlimited length rule [240.21(B)(5)] — You don't have to install an OCPD at the tap point of a feeder tap of unlimited length as long as you meet the following requirements (Fig. 2 below):



The tap conductors are suitably protected from physical damage.

The tap conductors are terminated at a single circuit breaker or a single set of fuses that limit the load to the ampacity of the conductors. This single OCPD may supply any number of additional overcurrent devices on its load side.

The OCPD for the tap conductors is an integral part of a disconnecting means or located immediately adjacent to the device.

The disconnect is located at a readily accessible location outside the building or structure, or nearest the point of entry of the service conductors.


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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

Do you need an MDP? No.
Should you put one in? We most likely would, personal preference.


Are you going to be able to add EGC's to all the feeders after the ATS?


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Cow said:


> Do you need an MDP? No.
> Should you put one in? We most likely would, personal preference.
> 
> 
> Are you going to be able to add EGC's to all the feeders after the ATS?


I dont believe it will be possible to install equipment grounds as the condition of the cables are unknown. Its possible they are DB.
All of the existing underground terminate in an individual meter on each of the buildings. We will have to remove the meters and install "jumpers".


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Cow said:


> Do you need an MDP? No.
> Should you put one in? We most likely would, personal preference.
> 
> 
> Are you going to be able to add EGC's to all the feeders after the ATS?


I just spent 5K to have an MDP built and shipped to to site in 5 days.


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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

Southeast Power said:


> I dont believe it will be possible to install equipment grounds as the condition of the cables are unknown. Its possible they are DB.
> All of the existing underground terminate in an individual meter on each of the buildings. We will have to remove the meters and install "jumpers".



Do you have a local/state amendment to allow an existing 4 wire feed? Oregon does, but I know most states require that EGC to be ran with a feeder.




Southeast Power said:


> I just spent 5K to have an MDP built and shipped to to site in 5 days.



Who does that for you, sounds cheap?


We had some Siemens 2000 and 3000 amp SWBD's with integral ATS's expedited (they knocked two weeks off the build time) for 11k and 17k, if I remember right. That was just the expedite fee. Not the cost of the SWBD's.


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

Southeast Power said:


> I dont believe it will be possible to install equipment grounds as the condition of the cables are unknown. Its possible they are DB.
> All of the existing underground terminate in an individual meter on each of the buildings. We will have to remove the meters and install "jumpers".


what's db, direct burial/bored? i take it theres some reason you can't dig beside them and lay in egc's?

the only problem i'm seeing is main bonding jumper location

or can 250.32(B)(1) exception 1 apply somehow, you group the discos together and label everything


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Cow said:


> Do you have a local/state amendment to allow an existing 4 wire feed? Oregon does, but I know most states require that EGC to be ran with a feeder.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's interesting to note that when it comes to expediting, they seem to charge by the pound.


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