# wires just too short



## Zparme

I'll be doing a service upgrade this Saturday, and it seems like half of the wires are gonna be just a little too short. What do you do in these situations?

Wire nut each wire in the panel box to make them long enough?

Or add a junction box and bring a new cable into the panel?


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## TOOL_5150

Both, depends on the situation. Either way works just fine.


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## Meadow

Try a panel that has a neutral buss near the top. Square D QO panels are the best for this. 

For the hots use wagos, they are a life saver.


Use a j box for those that go less than 6 inches into the panel.

If over most of them need a J box use an overhead gutter, unlikly though in most upgrades.


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## Meadow

These work wonders, just in case your new to them:

http://www.idealindustries.com/prodDetail.do?prodId=in-sure&div=0&l1=push-in


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## NMTangler

These work perfect because of the straight thru design.


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## denny3992

NMTangler said:


> These work perfect because of the straight thru design.


who makes that style?


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## Dennis Alwon

denny3992 said:


> who makes that style?


Ideal's new SpliceLine® in-line splice


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## A Little Short

meadow said:


> Try a panel that has a neutral buss near the top. Square D QO panels are the best for this.
> 
> For the hots use wagos, they are a life saver.
> 
> 
> Use a j box for those that go less than 6 inches into the panel.
> 
> If over most of them need a J box use an overhead gutter, unlikly though in most upgrades.



If you had wires that go less than 6" into the panel, how did they ever work in the old panel? I could see 6" from a breaker way down in the panel, but less than 6" inside the panel?


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## NMTangler

Little-Lectric said:


> If you had wires that go less than 6" into the panel, how did they ever work in the old panel? I could see 6" from a breaker way down in the panel, but less than 6" inside the panel?


I've had old panels where there were only little stubs of wire coming in. Sometimes the insulation is damaged and it's best to cut it at that point. Sometimes it's been spliced in the panel before. Sometimes the wire came in from the side right next to a breaker. You never know what someone else is going to do, especially when the panel has been around for many decades and had many people hacking into it.


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## Meadow

Little-Lectric said:


> If you had wires that go less than 6" into the panel, how did they ever work in the old panel? I could see 6" from a breaker way down in the panel, but less than 6" inside the panel?


Have had situations were the new panel needs to be mounted lower, moved over or dangling wires stapled that have resulted in less than 6 inches coming in to a new box.


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## A Little Short

meadow said:


> Have had situations were the new panel needs to be mounted lower, moved over or dangling wires stapled that have resulted in less than 6 inches coming in to a new box.


:thumbsup:

I was thinking about the new panel going right back where the old one was.


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## Shockdoc

I've noticed that mounting the new panel upside down on a panel change will give you the bus bars closer to the conductors and w/ some brands the neutral bar elevated . I'm not a fan of this but they get what they pay for if they choose the lower price.


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## Aegis

Cleanest and longest way is putting a JB above the panel.


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## NMTangler

Aegis said:


> Cleanest and longest way is putting a JB above the panel.


How is that the cleanest way? You are adding a box outside. Splicing in the panel is the cleanest way, if you use the connectors I posted earlier and tuck them in the back, it would be hard to tell even if the customer opened the panel.


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## Aegis

NMTangler said:


> How is that the cleanest way? You are adding a box outside. Splicing in the panel is the cleanest way, if you use the connectors I posted earlier and tuck them in the back, it would be hard to tell even if the customer opened the panel.


You're right in that we both view clean in different ways.


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## NMTangler

Aegis said:


> You're right in that we both view clean in different ways.


I think most of the world would agree that something hidden behind other wires in an enclosed electrical panel is much cleaner than installing electrical junction boxes out in the open where they will always need access available.


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## EricS

meadow said:


> These work wonders, just in case your new to them:
> 
> http://www.idealindustries.com/prodDetail.do?prodId=in-sure&div=0&l1=push-in



I'm still very skeptical about these things. I've had quite a few service calls because of hi hats that weren't lighting up in a chain of ones that were working fine. So far it's always been because of these lil guys releasing the wire. Just reminds me of the push in slots on the back of receptacles and switches. Wire nuts work just fine if installed properly. Way cheaper too!

However, I guess it's one way to seal some future work


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## retiredsparktech

NMTangler said:


> These work perfect because of the straight thru design.


I'd like to see what kind of connections, those things really make. It's still the "push and pray type design". 
Still living in the past. :thumbsup:


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## electrictim510

I dont mind other electricians using these wago type connectors, but I won't. We warranty our work and I just don't trust them.


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## SVT CAMR

Splice them in the panel and do not lose sleep over it.


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## user4818

I miss NMTangler.


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## A Little Short

retiredsparktech said:


> I'd like to see what kind of connections, those things really make. It's still the "push and pray type design".
> Still living in the past. :thumbsup:


Not sure about these connectors, but the multi-hole connectors such as Wago and Ideal Push-in are totally different than the back stabbed recep. connections. The spring clip actually digs into the conductor. Someone, not sure if here or another forum, took one apart to show the difference.

I use them all the time and no problems as long as you make sure you push the wire in all the way. Test one yourself. Insert a wire in one and pull on it. It takes quite a bit of force to pull it out. Much more than just plugging/unplugging something in a receptacle.

The one's that come with the hi-hats are not even close to what the Wagos and Ideals are!:thumbsup:


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## HadItUpToHere

I know this is an old topic. But I'm kinda reading into the past and I have a question/comment.

In Canada I believe there is a limit to how many wires you can "extend" in a panel using wagos, wire nuts, etc.

The limit is somewhere between 6 and 9... can't remember off the top of my head.

At that point you would need to use a JB wouldnt you?


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## HARRY304E

HadItUpToHere said:


> I know this is an old topic. But I'm kinda reading into the past and I have a question/comment.
> 
> In Canada I believe there is a limit to how many wires you can "extend" in a panel using wagos, wire nuts, etc.
> 
> The limit is somewhere between 6 and 9... can't remember off the top of my head.
> 
> At that point you would need to use a JB wouldnt you?


Why would they have that rule?


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## HadItUpToHere

HARRY304E said:


> Why would they have that rule?


To keep the panels from being a huge mess of marettes I imagine. Keep em tidy? 

This is literally something another apprentice (albeit one with a lot of experience) told me and I assumed to be true. I'm going to see if I can find it in the code book tomorrow.


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## A Little Short

HadItUpToHere said:


> To keep the panels from being a huge mess of marettes I imagine. Keep em tidy?
> 
> This is literally something another apprentice (albeit one with a lot of experience) told me and I assumed to be true. I'm going to see if I can find it in the code book tomorrow.



Can't answer for Canada, but we are allowed splices in the panel as long as it doesn't take up a listed percentage of the panel. I forget the % but it would take a lot splices to go over that.


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## BBQ

electrictim510 said:


> I dont mind other electricians using these wago type connectors, but I won't. We warranty our work and I just don't trust them.


The company I work for also warranties the work and we install tens of thousands of these each year.


Damn, sucked into old thread. ......


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## HadItUpToHere

Got my code book back and couldn't find a rule in the CEC stating a maximum number of splices allowed in the panel...

oh well


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## Cletis

NMTangler said:


> These work perfect because of the straight thru design.


You consider those previous wires short :laughing::laughing:


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## 13grind

does anyone know where in the code book says its OK to do splices in panel box? im in California, an inspector just gave me a correction on this i made a total of 3 splices on a 200 amp Murray panel for residential. thanks!


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## BBQ

13grind said:


> does anyone know where in the code book says its OK to do splices in panel box? im in California, an inspector just gave me a correction on this i made a total of 3 splices on a 200 amp Murray panel for residential. thanks!


Tell your inspector to read NEC 312.8 but the entire paragraph not just the first sentence.


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## RGH

splice inside the panel..(this is code compliant)...nice and neat....besides I have never seen a see through dead front....:thumbsup:,,I would add that when I do splice in the panel it is old school 3x, trim and a nut...I don't want anything flopping around in there if someone comes along later and starts tugging on chit or moving cirs..


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## chewy

Through crimp and heatshrink?


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## btharmy

13grind said:


> does anyone know where in the code book says its OK to do splices in panel box? im in California, an inspector just gave me a correction on this i made a total of 3 splices on a 200 amp Murray panel for residential. thanks!



It aint there. You can make splices in the panel in almost all installations without violating the NEC.


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## MTW

user4818 said:


> I miss NMTangler.


I miss user4818.


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## ponyboy

MTW said:


> I miss user4818.


What about deep horizon


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## Bkessler

13grind said:


> does anyone know where in the code book says its OK to do splices in panel box? im in California, an inspector just gave me a correction on this i made a total of 3 splices on a 200 amp Murray panel for residential. thanks!


 What city is this combination inspector in? I'll call him for you and set him straight.


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