# To Prove a Point!



## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

I'm scratching my head. My mind goes to retirement security and good training. I'm at a loss, beyond that.


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## Minuteman (Dec 29, 2007)

Gompers said:


> In *modern* day terms, what is a union and what does the membership stand for?
> 
> I'm sure the list consists of better pay, pension, health benefits, working conditions, education, history, and of course brotherhood. But is there anything I may have forgot?


Practically nothing. *ALL* of those things you have listed are available in Merit shops.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Consistency of all benefits noted from contractor to contractor. And this is major in my opinion.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Gompers said:


> This I can see will be a long and debated thread.....


I want to know why we need ANOTHER long and debated thread? 

WHY do some guys feel the constant need to do the comparison or "for/against" thing???


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## BryanMD (Dec 31, 2007)

Brian has hit the nail on the head.


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## Minuteman (Dec 29, 2007)

Speedy Petey said:


> I want to know why we need ANOTHER long and debated thread?
> 
> WHY do some guys feel the constant need to do the comparison or "for/against" thing???


It's called Trolling. :smartass:


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

*Point Rebuted*



Gompers said:


> .... I'm sure the list consists of better pay, pension, health benefits, working conditions, education, history, and of course brotherhood. But is there anything I may have forgot?


All I see is ME ME ME ME ME ME... what about the other partners? What do they get?

Does joining a union mean you become completely self absorbed?

I will say it again, unless you stop only thinking of yourselves you are going to continue to lose market share and just becuase your are labor does not mean you are above sales and marketing.


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

Lets talks about sales, look at my competition, how do I compete with this? 
This is an actual email I got TODAY, and that bill rate is considerably lower than mine and there is no unemployment liability.



> Journeyman Staffing
> Due to the economic situation Journeyman Staffing is slashing our BILL RATES to be the lowest in the industry. We know that when you’re trying to save your company money you look at your overtime and manpower rates first. . These mark ups make our BILL RATES the LOWEST in the INDUSTRY. *COMPARE THEM TO YOUR CURRENT BILL RATES !!!* How can we do that You ask? We have low overhead , so instead of pocketing the money we are passing the savings on to our valued customers. Journeyman Staffing is trying to save you money during these hard economic times by cutting our cost but still providing the same excellent service. . *We cover workers comp insurance, Unemployment, and Payroll. * *These times are going to be difficult for everyone and we all need to do what we can to get each other through this.* If you’re interested in signing up or learning more about our services feel free to email me or call me anytime ,Maybe we can meet up and I can take you to lunch or hit the golf course . Thanks and I look forward to hearing from you. God Bless
> 
> *Examples*
> ...


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## seo (Oct 28, 2008)

Can't compete with rates like that!


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

PhatElvis said:


> This is an actual email I got TODAY, and that bill rate is considerably lower than mine and there is no unemployment liability.


I love it when the job shack gets towed away or moved, and underneath it is a bunch of used hypos, and I don't mean for Diabetics!

These kind of quick hires leave behind trinkets like glass pipes and such.

Anyways... as long as the foreman is skilled, extra cheap labor can be added as needed to get the job done and meet a milestone.

How do you think they build the skyscrapers in Dubai? Ever seen an army of brown people wearing white sheets in the desert who work for $2 a day? I have, and they've got no labor laws in Dubai, all it takes is a couple experienced minds and a bunch of cheap unskilled manpower to complete a tower. One skilled US electrician at $40 an hour can't compete with twenty third-world nationals, I don't care how many times the install has to be reworked. Hell, even five Mexican-national electricians can't compete with that.

We better get our heads screwed on straight, before contractors here, and I don't mean mom&pops, man up their industrial jobs in the middle-of-nowhere with dirt cheap third world labor and noone is the wiser. Eastern europeans, filipinos, indians and the such wouldn't balk at the opportunity if given, and contractors lick their chops at the thought of it.


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## confident (Apr 28, 2008)

great idea...now if i can talk my mortgage people into paying them one-third of my house, groceries at one tenth and fuel, for free We can all prosper at those low costs
how can I buy a new drill?
Everytime a nation industrialises labor rates go up


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## Lone Crapshooter (Nov 8, 2008)

What does one do if they can not get in the local in their town because it is a country club local and they have no realitives that are IBEW members.
I worked non-signitured because of the IBEW and became a electrician inspite of the IBEW not because of the IBEW.
When was the last time one of you helped a non-signitured electrician get in the local.


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

Lone Crapshooter said:


> What does one do if they can not get in the local in their town because it is a country club local and they have no realitives that are IBEW members.
> I worked non-signitured because of the IBEW and became a electrician inspite of the IBEW not because of the IBEW.
> When was the last time one of you helped a non-signitured electrician get in the local.


 Been there too, it's a different world when you don't have any brothers.


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## Minuteman (Dec 29, 2007)

Therein lies the paradox. The Constitution of the IBEW calls for the inclusion of ALL electrical workers. Yet the country club, FLE, I'm-a-brother-you're-a-rat, wormy mentality, etc, shuts others out and pushes people away. The brotherhood is it's own worst enemy.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Lone Crapshooter said:


> What does one do if they can not get in the local in their town because it is a country club local and they have no realitives that are IBEW members.
> I worked non-signitured because of the IBEW and became a electrician inspite of the IBEW not because of the IBEW.
> When was the last time one of you helped a non-signitured electrician get in the local.


Been there done that...as the saying goes.


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## worn kleins (Dec 13, 2007)

More to it than a local being "country club". The last thing you want to do is overman a local. If there are more members than manhours of work, then there will be many periods of unemployment. Now if you're a shop cat that doesn't matter since you work most of the year. For hall trash that means you will be warming the bench. A balance has to be met in order to keep the majority of the members working full time. Most of the contractors are niche contractors and usually won't go after work that is outside their normal work. They are comfortable where they are and don't want to take on the risk of uncharted territory. I know of contractors that get an invite to bid and simply do a "drive-by" bid that is so high that they figure they won't get the job. Other contractors have a core group of men and they last thing they want to do is call the hall for help. Other shops have gotten so big that they have a minimum job amount and can't even look at work below that break even point. So if a local is not taking people in it is usually that their manhour history shows they can only keep so many members employed. In my home local we had a fixed number of members for many, many years and we all worked pretty much all year. When there was more work than we could man the travelers would come in and help us out. Then the call came from the IO to organize and my home local almost doubled in size but the manhour didn't match the increase. The result was the members could no longer count on working all year. The only time there was full employment was when big jobs were going on and we had big contractors in the area doing these jobs. It is fine to talk about taking in all electricians that want to join, but the problem is finding work for them. The IO reasoned that if we took the men from the non-union shops, the shops would follow and become signatory, well I can't remember a single time that happened. For those that are thinking about trying to join, try and get the manhour history report from the local you are thinking of joining. That will tell you if there is enough work to keep you working most of the year. Manhours divided by number of members equals the average number of hours a member is working per year.


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

worn kleins said:


> ...Most of the contractors are niche contractors and usually won't go after work that is outside their normal work. They are comfortable where they are and don't want to take on the risk of uncharted territory. I know of contractors that get an invite to bid and simply do a "drive-by" bid that is so high that they figure they won't get the job. Other contractors have a core group of men and they last thing they want to do is call the hall for help. Other shops have gotten so big that they have a minimum job amount and can't even look at work below that break even point. So if a local is not taking people in it is usually that their manhour history shows they can only keep so many members employed...


 Oh its the contractor's fault? Well I guess that makes more sense, than it being an ideological failure.

Sarcasm aside I think the Union business model is broken.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

PhatElvis said:


> Oh its the contractor's fault? Well I guess that makes more sense, than it being an ideological failure.
> 
> Sarcasm aside I think the Union business model is broken.


Some things I think could improve the issue.

Stop salting, because that sure wins contactors over to the uniuon way.

Stop trashing open shops, cause that does not help.

Work with the contractors showing them any benefits of being union.


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## Minuteman (Dec 29, 2007)

Right, so when I started my own shop, here come the BA begging me to become signatory After I closed my doors and went in with another former member,(who was also a former GF and NJATC teacher) here they come again. They don't have room for us as workers... but would LOVE to have us as EC's. 

No thanks.


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## Minuteman (Dec 29, 2007)

brian john said:


> read this


Can't, to much HTML code.


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

This is pretty much how every negotiation, discussion, hearing, dispute, or even casual conversation I have ever had with the Union goes. No matter what the issue, its always somehow my fault, and the corrective action will cost me money.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Minuteman said:


> Can't, to much HTML code.


 
DUH, it didn't when I copied it, after hitting post the html apperaed and I did not notice SORRY.


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

brian john said:


> DUH, it didn't when I copied it, after hitting post the html apperaed and I did not notice SORRY.


Yeah, I would not have done it like that...


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

PhatElvis said:


> Yeah, I would not have done it like that...


 
OK SO HELP?????


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

*John Wayne Shuffle*

*First off I was just being a smart ass. *
*Secondly I lost your link. *
*Thirdly if you are going to be a smart ass you should at least be able to walk it you like talk it... * 

*Obama executive order favors union labor*
​ 
By SAM HANANEL – 3 days ago 

WASHINGTON (AP) — President Barack Obama on Friday issued an executive order backing the use of union labor for large-scale federal construction projects.

The order encourages federal agencies to have construction contractors and subcontractors enter project labor agreements. Those agreements require contractors to negotiate with union officials, recognize union wages and benefits and generally abide by collective-bargaining agreements.

Obama's order restores a Clinton administration order that was revoked by President George W. Bush.

It is the fourth union-friendly executive order that Obama has signed since he's been in office, and one of about a dozen orders put in place by Bush that labor leaders have urged Obama to repeal.

"Project labor agreements are a win-win for everyone involved," said James Hoffa, president of the International Brotherhood of Teamsters. "Contractors get highly trained, skilled labor with fixed costs, and workers are fairly compensated with their rights and safety protected."

*But the Associated Builders and Contractors, a trade group, said the order would unfairly steer federal construction contracts to unionized contractors despite the fact that 84 percent of U.S. construction workers do not belong to labor unions.*

ABC president Kirk Pickerel said the effect would "drive up costs for American taxpayers" by reducing competitive bidding on projects. 



http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jEtOI8ay_-XoZrKX9qFZBXsDQb7wD966BV9G3


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

*Shame...*

*Delete Please...
*


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

I think you double posted.

Wait, let me check.









Yeah, you double posted.


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

*Humility*



Frasbee said:


> I think you double posted.
> 
> Wait, let me check.
> 
> ...


Yeah that's me, I screw up even when showing off...:jester:


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## cmec (Feb 11, 2008)

PhatElvis said:


> *First off I was just being a smart ass. *
> *Secondly I lost your link. *
> *Thirdly if you are going to be a smart ass you should at least be able to walk it you like talk it... *
> 
> ...


Go read the two exec orders from 1-30-2009,Economy in govt contracting, And non displacement of qualified workers , Looks like a way to organize the small contracts too.

LOOKS like with obamaism your, an employee of the govt, belong to the union and or are signatory,or live on welfare. Free enterprise is ?????.


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

PhatElvis said:


> *Obama executive order favors union labor*​
> 
> 
> By SAM HANANEL – 3 days ago
> ...


 
Wow, if that's true maybe I should cancel the order for my obuma toilet seat.


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

*secrete knowledge*

To the uninitiated this is the key paragraph:

_The order encourages federal agencies to have construction contractors and subcontractors enter project labor agreements. Those agreements require contractors to negotiate with union officials, recognize union wages and benefits and generally abide by collective-bargaining agreements._ 

1) It’s not encouragement it’s a mandate. 

2) Once a contractor recognizes a union and abides by collective bargaining, it can be almost impossible to get out. It has to do with NLRB labor laws, once you recognize the union, you are in whether you wanted in or not. This whole set up is like a shotgun wedding, if you want a piece of big government work, you are get’n hitched. 

Ok this gets a little boring and complicated by stick with me here…

Here is how it works, first an open shop enters into a collective bargaining agreement for any given period or job. To do this he agrees to the terms and signs *letter of accent 8(f) and states the period of the relationship *. This is also known as an 8(f) relationship. In an 8(f) relationship the contractor is free to leave the union at the end of the agreed upon period with nothing else other than written notice. 

Its because an 8(f) contractor has the option to terminate his agreement at the end of the job or time period set forth in the agreement that the Union does everything they can to change this status to a 9(a) which means the contractor fully recognized the union as to sole agent for collective bargaining…forever. Any attempt to end this relationship will break labor laws and land you in court until you cry uncle. 

The way the union changes a contractor to Section 9(a) status during the course of a Section 8(f) relationship: (1) through a Board-certified election, or (2) through the employer's voluntary grant of recognition in accordance with the standards enunciated in cases such as J & R Tile, Inc., 291 NLRB 1034, 1036 (1988), and Golden West Electric, 307 NLRB 1494, 1495 (1992). 

How it generally works is a union representative will visit all the contractor's employees on all the contractors’ jobs and ask them to sign their union card. They don’t tell them anything else and most of the guys don’t think anything of it and just sign the card. The BA and a witness then visit the contractor and hand them the cards, once the contractor takes the cards in his hands and looks at them there has been a _Board-certified election_ and he just became a 9(a) contractor. 

Another neat little trick they do is is just mail all 8(f) contractor a new letter of assent 9(a) and ask them to sign in for their records, which a lot do not even knowing what it means. 

Wow I had better be careful this is secrete knowledge somebody may not want people to know this stuff. Oh and by the way I am 9(a).


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## Lone Crapshooter (Nov 8, 2008)

I can understsnd the manpower issues of the local. But why are there no man power issues when a son or soon to be realitive applies .:001_huh:
In the 70s when I was trying to get in the apprenticeship it was nothing to have 10 openings and take 9 sons and a female.
Then they will tell you it is fair.:no:
From what I understand now if the organizer is in a good mood he will let you take the JW test and if he is not FORGET IT.
I would also like to know why union workers try to get hired by non-signitured contractors after they have agreed not to work non-signitured?:no:
Why is it OK for a union to bring in out of state workers when they will not local workers in their union but a non-signitured company does it the union says they are not being treated fairly ?
Why do unions put a picket on a non-signitured job, but what would happen if a group of non-signitured men put a picket on a union job because the union contractors would not hire them.


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## Lone Crapshooter (Nov 8, 2008)

[I can understsnd the manpower issues of the local. But why are there no man power issues when a son or soon to be realitive applies .:001_huh:
In the 70s when I was trying to get in the apprenticeship it was nothing to have 10 openings and take 9 sons and a female.
Then they will tell you it is fair.:no:
From what I understand now if the organizer is in a good mood he will let you take the JW test and if he is not FORGET IT.
I would also like to know why union workers try to get hired by non-signitured contractors after they have agreed not to work non-signitured?:no:
Why is it OK for a union to bring in out of state workers when they will not let local workers in their union but a non-signitured company does it the union says they are not being treated fairly ?
Why do unions put a picket on a non-signitured job, but what would happen if a group of non-signitured men put a picket on a union job because the union contractors would not hire them


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## Gompers (Feb 9, 2009)

There's a fuse on that firecracker son!

So back to the "Prove A Point"

1) Given the current 45 day referral policy, how long would you guys go 
without a job from your union (book one)?
2) If there is no place to go, or one could not travel, what's there to do?

$64,000 dollar question:

Would any of you be happy working 5 months out of 48 months? Yeah it's less than 10% for all the mathematicians out there. Imagine being on the book one list for twenty-four months straight, finally getting a referral at a good job location, only to receive a layoff because the shop can't replace the shop steward. Contractor chooses to lay-off the entire crew to rid the job of one individual (well deserved - in late / leave early daily) and now you're right at the end of the list it just took 24 months to bottom out of.
This of course equaling 48 months out at least!

What if there were 380 members on book one who were right in the same boat, unemployed for two years and waiting for the possible 45 day-call.

What if a good portion of 1200 members *at the same time* were working overtime, or cash for saturday's, or straight for overtime in fear of the 45-day kiss?

Really folks, what's a brother to do?

I know what I did, with full support from friends and family, and support from 'former' brothers that have been in since '66.

Given a terribly managed local union, over-organizing of the non-academy grads, and a general cluster **** what's a guy to do?

There's alot more to this story, I'm just working up to the "POINT"


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

Gompers if you want to talk about how great the brotherhood is and how ratty everyone else is this thread will turn into a gang bang, but if you keep talking about real issues and real problems get ready to hear the crickets chirp...


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## Minuteman (Dec 29, 2007)

PhatElvis said:


> Gompers if you want to talk about how great the brotherhood is and how ratty everyone else is this thread will turn into a gang bang, but if you keep talking about real issues and real problems get ready to hear the crickets chirp...


Elvis, my Phat Phriend, you said a mouth full! :thumbsup:


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

The JIB is not run like "ordinary" locals.


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## Minuteman (Dec 29, 2007)

Celtic said:


> The JIB is not run like "ordinary" locals.


Guess I wouldn't know how an "ordinary" local is supposed to be run.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

I can here the crickets from my thread(both sides of the fence)still.


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## Gompers (Feb 9, 2009)

A tiny bit off the point, but the matter at hand none-the-less, hey PhatElvis and slickvic277 I have a plan. Oh great indeed, Phatman brings the tent, Slick brings the marshmellows, we all go camping, what do I bring? 
Here's what bring, an invatation for Ed Hill to bring the K-Y jelly, he must be a member of the GEM club. Now remember it's all camping boys, what happens at the site, stays at the site. Don't bring it up at general meetings and such (remember crickets)
Ed's going to have seconds (actually thirds) with me, how about you folks?

Back to the point, I read the entire thread started by slickvic277 and I can say ALMOST all areas were covered. One of my concerns is the matter of organizing. There are many great electricians out in the market that are not union trained, so does the IBEW organize them and and bless these individuals an A-card on book one? Or has the local union alterior motives such as organizing the contractor of these individuals? What happens to the slug apprentices that are just trying to make ends meet for five years of eating wirenuts. Then to have another guy just join, take whatever exam and dilute the entire five years of training?

I had to ask because I've seen it first hand. The *BIG *organizing effort in '99, I was a 4th year app and it burned me up that a guy could literaly just walk in the hall, spin a wire nut and bend a 90 and voila instant A-card BOOK ONE. Oh I forgot the four hour COMET class, I'm sorry!

Yeah some of these guys may be worth thier salt, I've seen it personally, but the five years of teaching unionism is thrown out the door, both in the classroom and on the job!

The matter of non-union guys organizing and the ultimate effort I'll have to continue another time, I need to go to bed I have twelve 200A services to do tommorow, half in rigid and the other underground.

After that I may give myself a lunch, afterall I used to be union and all!

Thanks ED, I owe you ONE pal!


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## cmec (Feb 11, 2008)

*plas on federal property*

HERES MY QUESTION, are we going to use davis bacon wage decisons from the DOL, or collective bargaining agreements rates ,Ive seen electrican scale as low as 8.50 per hr & no benies in lynchburg va and elizabeth city nc, 80%of the work s done open shop in the usa.????

HOW IS this going play out with jurisdiction of other crafts, We gonna have national master builders agreement , I KNOW OF 6 federal agencies in my local area and not one is headquartered in my state.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

CMEC 
Location


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## Gompers (Feb 9, 2009)

Doing a little 'homework', any folks from IBEW #712 Beaver, P.A. post on this board?


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

*chirp*

*chirp*


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## Gompers (Feb 9, 2009)

Is it me or the questions I ask?

Wood burning fireplace is going very hot with the red oak from my yard, I miss the crickets in the winter.

Boy I wish I was on a nice powerhouse job,
Boy I miss the smell of threading oil,
Boy I miss all the comments on the ****house walls,
Boy I miss the *few* brothers who were really brothers


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Gompers said:


> Is it me or the questions I ask?
> 
> 
> Boy I wish I was on a nice powerhouse job,


Ahhh NOT ME



> Boy I miss the smell of threading oil,


Are you nuts?



> Boy I miss all the comments on the ****house walls,


Nothing worth reading usually



> Boy I miss the *few* brothers who were really brothers


The only true brothers are the ones that share a mother with you.


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## gilbequick (Oct 6, 2007)

Gompers said:


> Doing a little 'homework', any folks from IBEW #712 Beaver, P.A. post on this board?


There are several guys from the PA area but I'm not sure if any of them are out of 712. Must guys here are open shop so probably not.

Are you retired IBEW?

In your opinion, what makes a "brother" a "brother"?


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## Gompers (Feb 9, 2009)

No kidding around, my first tour of bench duty I happened to in the isle of my local Home Depot (plumbing that is, wouldn't want to work electrical and all, see collective barganing agreement), the store employees were threading some black pipe on a 1224. Damn, I figured - I miss the smell of dark threading oil! Really - no kidding around.

Only child, never had brothers until I was sworn into the IBEW, does this include the military as well? No, No I'm not talking about the Corp! Hate to give all the jarheads a pup tent and all

**** house walls, what is the ratio of workers to porta-sans again? So what I'm to understand that one ****house won't support 120 workers on a daily basis, what else is there to do but write on the walls - "Empty the general fund"


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## Gompers (Feb 9, 2009)

Are you retired IBEW?

No, expelled five times in one EIB session!

Mutual feelings - happened to be the only time in 13 years that I refused to renew my working card due to the unemployment situation, and a few other more significant reasons.

How about you?

From what was was taught to me all my life, a real brother is one who is willing to lay his life down for yours.

In reality, someone who'll give you the shirt off thier back when needed.

In my IBEW journey, someone who upholds the values of those who sacrificed before you.

In everyday life, just give me a box of red wire nuts already (please).


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## cmec (Feb 11, 2008)

"Empty the general fund"[/quote]

You wouldnt be talking about all the poor tramps money WHO WORKED AT 712 WHEN THE IP, I mean ed WAS BA, and got worked 9 yrs and 6 months and laid off so they couldnt get vested in the pension?


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## Gompers (Feb 9, 2009)

THERE IS A GOD!

Now here is someone who is connecting the dots, 712...EH...KY Jelly

Here's one for 'ya "**** Cheney & the IBEW" connect the dots.

All of these and my final synapsis will prove a point. Grab the popcorn and some nuts (yours) and be proud.


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## cmec (Feb 11, 2008)

Cheney and haliburton?
lbj and brown and root
stone and webster ?

? ed and ****


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Gompers:

Either I am on drugs or you are because I cannot connect the dots, heck I can't even see the dots.


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## Minuteman (Dec 29, 2007)

brian john said:


> Gompers:
> 
> Either I am on drugs or you are because I cannot connect the dots, heck I can't even see the dots.


Only Gompers sees them, must be something in the Koolaid. :blink:


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## Gompers (Feb 9, 2009)

My apologies for being on drugs for so long:
http://www.pww.org/article/articleview/5932/1/143/
There's your Cheney link!

Halliburton & Cheney:
I don't feel confident enough do do a search on the WWW., how about whom ever feels interested enough please do so. Can you spell share holder? Here let me help you - S H A R E H O L D E R, is that better?
Would you prefer common stock, options or puts?
How about a short sale here and there?

LBJ:
Now who's on drugs?

Brown & Root:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KBR_(company)
Must be those drugs again, can't see straight.

Here maybe this will help:
http://www.fundinguniverse.com/company-histories/Kellogg-Brown-amp;-Root-Inc-Company-History.html

Yeah the saucers are flying overhead and my drugs are taking effect!

Sorry for the long-delayed response, when I first posted this thread my blood pressure went through the roof everytime I looked at it, kind of like my graduation certificate from the JATC. Thinking of putting that document into the shredder.

I think we need some Ed Hill flavored Kool Aid:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonestown#Mass_murder-suicide

Damn, I joined the wrong union! #350 out on book one for 6years now,
20% market share only in public sector, complete loss in private sector, many have lost thier homes and even more unfortinate, thier families. And that old 45-day referal I keep chewing on, thanks Ed!

Stone & Webster? You got me there.

I apologize again for those that contributed to this thread, my blood preesure was/is through the roof reading some of the replies.

Now back to my drugs


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Minuteman said:


> It's called Trolling. :smartass:



Seems like it. 

The OP as of this post has 10 total posts, 9 of them in this thread and the other was a 'test'.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Minuteman said:


> Practically nothing. *ALL* of those things you have listed are available in Merit shops.


 Well in that case you forgot to mention "poverty":laughing:


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

jrannis said:


> Well in that case you forgot to mention "poverty":laughing:


Screw you.

Sure there are non-union guys working for peanuts ........ you know what, that is there own problem. Either they suck or do not have the balls to step up and ask for for more. I make my own way, I don't count on someone else to hold my hand.


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