# Solve this service call......



## ampman (Apr 2, 2009)

volt pen is not the same as a volt meter low voltage ???


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## JayH (Nov 13, 2009)

A digital volt meter.


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## ampman (Apr 2, 2009)

JayH said:


> A digital volt meter.


 yes --fluke to be percise


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Are there more smokes somewhere else? Check for voltage on the interconnect wire. 9 volts dc


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

480sparky said:


> Today's service call:
> 
> HO removed a dwelling smoke detector because it was beeping. They replaced it with an identical unit, and it still kept beeping, so they just removed it and pulled the battery out.
> 
> ...


At this point for me, the next step would be to give the Estwing treatment to both smokes. :whistling2:






Actually, I always make sure to use the test button. This often "resets" the smoke, and the chirping stops. Also, I try a fresh battery. As well as ensuring there is actually 120v, and the spices are secure.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

ampman said:


> yes --fluke to be percise


Unfortunately, I'm over 800 miles from home.

And I really didn't want to spend any money on even a cheap meter just to take one voltage reading.


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Unfortunately, I'm over 800 miles from home.
> 
> And I really didn't want to spend any money on even a cheap meter just to take one voltage reading.


I usually don't go do service calls that are more than 750 miles from home. But that's just me. And if I did, I'd have my tools and meters with me. But again that's just me. :jester:


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

Are all of the smokes periodically chirping or just the one?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Rudeboy said:


> Are all of the smokes periodically chirping or just the one?


 
Just the one in question.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

Loose neutral.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Rudeboy said:


> Loose neutral.


That was my first thought. So I pulled the mounting plate down and checked the connections. All 3 were good.


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## EE1 (Nov 17, 2009)

I think someone already got it. Hold down the reset button until you get them all going off for 15 seconds or so. This usually does the trick!


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

You said you didn't know which was the new smoke, did the battery have a proper connection? Meaning, if it's the old smoke the tabs might be jacked up?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Rudeboy said:


> You said you didn't know which was the new smoke, did the battery have a proper connection? Meaning, if it's the old smoke the tabs might be jacked up?


When I arrived, I have provided with two identical smokes. One was original to the house wiring, and one that they purchased in hopes to solve the problem. The new one didn't solve the problem.

New battery installed in both, and they both beeped every 10 seconds or so.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

EE1 said:


> I think someone already got it. Hold down the reset button until you get them all going off for 15 seconds or so. This usually does the trick!


What reset button? I've never seen a smoke with a reset button.

Some have a ShutTheF*ckUp button, but _reset_?


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

test button


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

Be honest, how long did this call take you, not including the 800 mile drive? I won't laugh if you say four hours.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Rudeboy said:


> Be honest, how long did this call take you, not including the 800 mile drive? I won't laugh if you say four hours.


I never looked at a clock, but I'd say 10 minutes or so.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

how about another hint.

(sorry, it was a very long day and my brain doesn't really want to work overtime.)


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

JayH said:


> A digital volt meter.


Not a digital unless it is a low impedance meter. With a standard high impedance meter you can get ghost/phantom voltage readings.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

steelersman said:


> I usually don't go do service calls that are more than 750 miles from home. But that's just me. And if I did, I'd have my tools and meters with me. But again that's just me. :jester:



I just did a service call 760 miles from home.


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## Kevin J (Dec 11, 2008)

What is on the circuit that is feeding the SD?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Rudeboy said:


> how about another hint.
> 
> (sorry, it was a very long day and my brain doesn't really want to work overtime.)


My brain doesn't work undertime some days, either. :laughing:

Another hint:

When installed, neither smoke signalled the others when the test button was pressed.



Kevin J said:


> What is on the circuit that is feeding the SD?


Beats the cheese out of me.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

Kevin J said:


> What is on the circuit that is feeding the SD?


If it's just some bedroom lights that shouldn't make a difference. What's your take here?


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## Kevin J (Dec 11, 2008)

Rudeboy said:


> If it's just some bedroom lights that shouldn't make a difference. What's your take here?


Sometimes an attic fan cycling on and off, or a heater will cause a chirp if they're on the circuit with a SD. Worth a shot.


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## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

Did you change the harness too? Or just swap detectors?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

MF Dagger said:


> Did you change the harness too? Or just swap detectors?


 
Just swapped the detectors. They were the exact same make & model.


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## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

480sparky said:


> Just swapped the detectors. They were the exact same make & model.


Bad harness?


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## redsox98 (Oct 16, 2009)

I have had some weird things happen with firex (don't know what brand you are working with). I know it sounds wierd but we actually had a service call where we changed another one out down the line and it actually made the other one stop chirping. Also if one is a co2 combo that would be where I would start. Smokes can be a pain to troubleshoot.


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## Mr. Sparkle (Jan 27, 2009)

Birds nest above SD box?

Or a loose neutral in the box feeding it?

But some smokes will beep constantly once they lose the grounded conductor, not just chirp.


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## Wireless (Jan 22, 2007)

Interconnect is no good, smoke alarmed due to interconnect but doesn't know to shut off now.


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## Fredman (Dec 2, 2008)

Houston, we got a harness issue.






:blink:





Right?


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## guschash (Jul 8, 2007)

Did I miss something? Did you fix it and not telling us what you did. :001_huh:
gus


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

My guess that something give out the high frequity like remote control or a electronic ballasted luminaire { it can be either flourscent or low voltage with electronic transfomer }

Merci.Marc


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

480sparky said:


> When installed, neither smoke signalled the others when the test button was pressed.


Ok so both smokes act the same and don't set off the others when tested and the battery is good and there is line power and they are the same brand as all the other ones right. From there this is how i would work it;

>ask if any other electrical work or work in the attic was done if there was there might be something wired wrong or a damaged wire in the attic

>Then I would mark the 2 smokes #1 and #2 and find another one that dosen't beep and mark it #3 then plug #3 into the spot #1and#2 were and see if it does the same thing, if it does its probably a problem with the harness or the interconnect wire 

>Then take #1 and #2 and plug them in were #3 was and see if the stop beeping, if the do see the step before and if not I would have to keep thinking.


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## kbsparky (Sep 20, 2007)

I've had similar symptoms with mis-wired interconnects. 120 Volts on the red line, etc.

Usually, the affected smoke is fried, and won't talk with the other smokes after such events ... :no:


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## Sawdust454 (Sep 26, 2008)

It's the doorbell thats chirping:thumbsup:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

guschash said:


> Did I miss something? Did you fix it and not telling us what you did. :001_huh:
> gus


 
See post #1.



MF Dagger said:


> Bad harness?





Fredman said:


> Houston, we got a harness issue.
> Right?


No.


FWIW, there is a response that is close, oh so very close, to the actual problem. But it's not a _complete _correct answer.


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## ampman (Apr 2, 2009)

ok we give up


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## Ima Hack (Aug 31, 2009)

I'm thinking you had no 120v present. I found one once fed by a switched receptacle....on the switched side. 

It worked great as long as the switch was on. :thumbsup:


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## Wireless (Jan 22, 2007)

Did you silence all the other smokes?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Wireless said:


> Did you silence all the other smokes?


No 'silence' button.


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## Wireless (Jan 22, 2007)

480sparky said:


> No 'silence' button.


Sorry, Test button.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Wireless said:


> Sorry, Test button.


 
Pushing the test button will sound the one smoke, but not any of the others.


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## normel (Oct 3, 2007)

Will the alarm in question sound if the test button is pushed on one of the other alarms, and do all the others go off? What are the LEDs doing and what colors are flashing?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

normel said:


> Will the alarm in question sound if the test button is pushed on one of the other alarms, and do all the others go off? What are the LEDs doing and what colors are flashing?


 
If I pushed the test button on the one I was replacing, it would sound, but none of the others.

I pushed a test button on the smoke in an adjacent room, and they all sounded except for the 'problem child'.

I never paid attention to the LED. Sorry.


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## Wireless (Jan 22, 2007)

480sparky said:


> If I pushed the test button on the one I was replacing, it would sound, but none of the others.
> 
> I pushed a test button on the smoke in an adjacent room, and they all sounded except for the 'problem child'.
> 
> I never paid attention to the LED. Sorry.


How many units total? how far is the "problem child" from the rest?


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

one of the smoke detectors is in some kind of latching mode after i turned the power off for a few minutes if it still did it I would check for a missing smoke elsewhere, then make sure there were 120 volts with respect to nuetral at each device starting with the one in question working my way outward. That is assuming you removed the plastic tab by the battery.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Wireless said:


> How many units total? how far is the "problem child" from the rest?


 
8 total smokes. The 'problem child' is in one bedroom, next closest one is in adjacent bedroom, then one in the hallway.


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## normel (Oct 3, 2007)

A SD will chirp when AC power is removed... that fact that it will not set off adjacent alarms indicates a bad connection on the interconnect wire... I would say you found a bad connection not at the suspect detector, but at an adjacent one that fed it.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

normel said:


> A SD will chirp when AC power is removed... that fact that it will not set off adjacent alarms indicates a bad connection on the interconnect wire... I would say you found a bad connection not at the suspect detector, but at an adjacent one that fed it.


 
And we have a winner! :thumbsup:

Open neutral, but at the next smoke upstream!


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## Mr. Sparkle (Jan 27, 2009)

HEY I WON FIRST GO READ MY POST FROM YESTERDAY!!!!


From post #31....AND I QUOTE:



> Or a loose neutral in the box feeding it?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Mr. Sparkle said:


> HEY I WON FIRST GO READ MY POST FROM YESTERDAY!!!!
> 
> 
> From post #31....AND I QUOTE:


 
No, the loose noodle was in the next box upstream on the circuit.


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## Mr. Sparkle (Jan 27, 2009)

Upstream, Dowstream, Tomatostream, Potatostream.....ok, ok you win other guy. I won't contest......


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Mr. Sparkle said:


> Upstream, Dowstream, Tomatostream, Potatostream.....ok, ok you win other guy. I won't contest......


I thought you meant an open noodle in the box directly above the smoke. That's why I didn't declare a 'winner' at that point, as it was in another box.

But you were, most definately, headed in the right direction!

So I'll declare 'Dual Winners' for this one.:thumbsup:


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## normel (Oct 3, 2007)

Mr. Sparkle said:


> Upstream, Dowstream, Tomatostream, Potatostream.....ok, ok you win other guy. I won't contest......


I'll share :thumbsup:


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## Mr. Sparkle (Jan 27, 2009)

Ahhh I see how I was not clear with that statement.

However, I'd like my trophy made from Asiago, but Provolone will do as long as it is really stinky.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

Rudeboy said:


> Loose neutral.


480, i guessed it on the 11th post, first page. 

come on man, you even responded and said you checked the connections and they were all good. 

What did anyone learn here? That electricians should make sure they're splices are tight? :laughing:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Rudeboy said:


> 480, i guessed it on the 11th post, first page.
> 
> come on man, you even responded and said you checked the connections and they were all good.
> 
> What did anyone learn here? That electricians should make sure they're splices are tight? :laughing:


 
But......... *where*?


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

480sparky said:


> But......... *where*?


Who cares where? It's troubleshooting 101.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Rudeboy said:


> Who cares where? It's troubleshooting 101.


 
If you can't actually LOCATE the problem, how do you expect to SOLVE it?

It's one thing to SAY WHAT the problem is. Troubleshooting 101 also includes FINDING it.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

480sparky said:


> If you can't actually LOCATE the problem, how do you expect to SOLVE it?
> 
> It's one thing to SAY WHAT the problem is. Troubleshooting 101 also includes FINDING it.


No sh-t sherlock. I told you what the problem was, I didn't tell you where it was, I wasn't at the house with you. It's not like i have a tripping arc fault and go to the first outlet, check it, breaker still trips and i pack it up and go home. You find the friggin problem, fix it and go home.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Rudeboy said:


> No sh-t sherlock. I told you what the problem was, I didn't tell you where it was, I wasn't at the house with you. It's not like i have a tripping arc fault and go to the first outlet, check it, breaker still trips and i pack it up and go home. You find the friggin problem, fix it and go home.


Welcome to the forum!:thumbup:

So you're saying if "The Solution" is not in the first place you look, you give up and go home?

I stated that the neutral IN THE BOX THE SMOKE WAS AT was fine.

THAT should have prompted a genius like you to say: "CHECK THE OTHER FREAKING BOXES, YOU TOOL!"


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Welcome to the forum!:thumbup:
> 
> So you're saying if "The Solution" is not in the first place you look, you give up and go home?
> 
> ...


Semantics. And, i try not to yell at people, even on the internet.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

If it matters I like your puzzles 480. Being a municipal/utility electrician I like them because I can get some practice on residential troubleshooting which I never really get to do.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

Jlarson said:


> If it matters I like your puzzles 480. Being a municipal/utility electrician I like them because I can get some practice on residential troubleshooting which I never really get to do.


I like them too 480.(the trailer park one was really cool) I just don't like feeling a little mislead. That's all.

loose neutral on a circuit is a loose neutral no matter what stream it's on.
:whistling2::thumbup::laughing:


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## George Stolz (Jan 22, 2009)

480sparky said:


> I stated that the neutral IN THE BOX THE SMOKE WAS AT was fine.


Which is a lie, if it's not connected electrically to the neutral at the service.


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## Fredman (Dec 2, 2008)

George Stolz said:


> Which is a lie, if it's not connected electrically to the neutral at the service.



Oh the dirty RAT!!:laughing:


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> My *volt pen* says there's power.


 

I'm late but that's the only clue I needed. 

Next step would have been to get a wiggy :thumbsup:. Then go find the open neutral.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

220/221 said:


> I'm late but that's the only clue I needed.
> 
> Next step would have been to get a wiggy :thumbsup:


 
See post #7.


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## George Stolz (Jan 22, 2009)

I can't imagine not having my Vol-Con on my bags, even for a day - for just this reason.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

Just wondering, 480, how did you end up with a service call 800 miles from your house? 

(could have at least brought your Knopp tester with you)
:thumbup:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

ampman said:


> ok we give up



I gave up as soon as I saw the title to the thread. :laughing::laughing:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Rudeboy said:


> Just wondering, 480, how did you end up with a service call 800 miles from your house?
> 
> (could have at least brought your Knopp tester with you)
> :thumbup:


 
I visited my parents for Turkey Day week.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

480sparky said:


> I visited my parents for Turkey Day week.


that's funny, every time i go to my mom's house she has some issue that needs to be fixed. Thursday three landscape lights weren't working. Gardener must have been up to something because the splices at one fixture were not connected.:no:


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

You bring your non contact tester with you on vacation? 

Next time bring your wiggy.:thumbsup:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

220/221 said:


> You bring your non contact tester with you on vacation?
> 
> Next time bring your wiggy.:thumbsup:


I always take my pouch and cordless.


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## cdnelectrician (Mar 14, 2008)

haha Yea, I feel "naked" without a set of handtools in the trunk lol


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## sparky105 (Sep 29, 2009)

wtf is a wiggy:blink:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

sparky105 said:


> wtf is a wiggy:blink:


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## sparky105 (Sep 29, 2009)

ohhhhhhhh I never use them way to many vfd curcuits that can exceed 600 volts and some up to 750 volt so unless they have a 1000 volt model.
I did have a volcon when I started my apprenticeship but have been using a multi meter for the last 15 years. thanks I love coming here and learning new things


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

Is the term "wiggy" copyrighted by Klein? I've always referred to voltage testers in general as wiggies. I got my Knopp handed down to me when I first started.


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## ibuzzard (Dec 28, 2008)

Rudeboy, "wiggy" generally refers to any solenoid -type tester. I believe Klein now owns the right to that name(originally the Wiggington Co.?). However,in the same way that most electricians refer to all brands of type NMB cable as "Romex",though that name is owned by the Rome Wire Co.,we've got into the habit(us older guys)of referring to all such testers as Wiggys ,no matter the manufacturer.Steve.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Rudeboy said:


> Is the term "wiggy" copyrighted .......


So is sheetrock, kleenex, and jell-o.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

Thanks Ibuzzard, I've never even held a klein "wiggy" in my hands.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

480sparky said:


> So is sheetrock, kleenex, and jell-o.


I don't think i would eat jello that wasn't made by Jell-o.

Actually, I don't even eat that. Unless there's booze in it.

even then...:no:


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## Fredman (Dec 2, 2008)

Rudeboy said:


> I don't think i would eat jello that wasn't made by Jell-o.
> 
> Actually, I don't even eat that. Unless there's booze in it.
> 
> even then...:no:


Those rocking chairs look comfy. Where can I buy one?


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## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

Square D made wiggy's for awhile that said wiggy on them. Maybe they bought or sold the name.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

MF Dagger said:


> Square D made wiggy's for awhile that said wiggy on them. Maybe they bought or sold the name.


They're also called 'thumpers' as well.

Wiggy/Sq. D.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Whatever. they're all illegal now OSHA will not allow them. Ditch your wiggy - and relagate it to the history books where it belongs.


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## sparky105 (Sep 29, 2009)

is that due to the moving parts flying out of them when they short out and explde in your hand?
I read it some where years ago that when i bought my first multi meter


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

sparky105 said:


> is that due to the moving parts flying out of them when they short out and explde in your hand?
> I read it some where years ago that when i bought my first multi meter


They're not rated for Class needed for the equipment.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

Fredman said:


> Those rocking chairs look comfy. Where can I buy one?


They're Eames rockers. Original ones cost a lot in good condition. The best place to find any Eames chair would probably be at an estate sale, or if you're very lucky, a flea market.
:thumbsup:


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