# Just follow the wire



## daks (Jan 16, 2013)

Called out to a small commercial strip mall,
flickering lights in part of one office...
Baseboard heaters are not working in another office...

3 florescent lights on switch flicker, another on separate switch flickers, all other lights in office fine. 
Go above the grid, follow the terrible wire routing and check the junction box for general stupidity. Poor workmanship and no cover but passes the wiggle test. 
Check voltage 97V (120V system).
Figure bad connection upstream somewhere. Follow wire to a couple more boxes then to the back of the breaker room.
Go get key for said room, (trying to keep in mind the exact position that AC90 goes through the wall).

Open door and look up,








Big sigh, open up panels, 
Bigger sigh, chuckle, close the door. 

Lets go look at the heater. 
Nice and cold in this back office, 
Yep the baseboard is cold, I turned up the thermostat on the heater (240V) and the computer across the room turned on!

I immediately turned the thermostat back down and the computer powered down.

My first thought was "well at least I don't have to go to the truck to dig out the breaker finder". 

The first time I had come across something like this, I was thinking things about gremlins and poltergeists. 

Lets see who can call this one.
Clues
120V system at 97V, at one end of the building.
Older commercial units that have been remodeled many times over the years. 
240V heaters at the other end of the building only getting 120V and will turn on a nearby outlet.


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

Now-----That's Butcher work....:laughing::blink::laughing:


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

When you turn up the T-Stat that closes a tap after the T-Stat and the outlet feeding the computer becomes live...


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

Loose neutral would be my first guess. Unplug those computers before they get fried.

Had a GC that called me because he had "fixed" a problem in a small office. Unfortunately 1/2 the computers and printers didn't work anymore. I asked him if he had removed the wire nuts on any white wires and he said yes and it sparked so he put it right back. Sorry bud, nothing I can do for you now LOL.


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## 309a (May 23, 2010)

I'm with five five six. Loose neutral likely.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

lost phase. what'd I win ?


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## The_kid (Nov 4, 2014)

Sounds like a loose neutral. Whats the answer!?


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## Wpgshocker (Jan 25, 2013)

Receptacles in series after baseboards and stats? Lol, need to know!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## JDJ (Aug 9, 2011)

I'm going with lost phase


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

The_kid said:


> Sounds like a loose neutral. Whats the answer!?


The answer is that, with that complete mess of BX, it's impossible NOT to have a problem. Or problems.

That's completely disgusting.


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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

That's some of the worst I've seen!:no:


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## 51360 (Jun 9, 2014)

Loose neutrals cause those problems, but you can test for that. I'll assume you tested for loss of phase in that scary service room!

My guess is voltage drop. 

Borgi


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## mdfriday (May 14, 2007)

Somebody wired in new work to the heater.....new stuff is wired in series and will only work when the t stat is on.


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

I came up with lose nuter, and that's the first thing I would look for but it in no way rules out a gazillion other possibilities. The key to successful trouble shooting is not to start fixing a problem until you have proven what it is. 

Once you _eliminate the impossible_, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth.


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

Lost phase caused by those infamous FPE panels. 

Check for burned bus stabs or bad clips on the fuses in the main disco. (Or, as happened once at my brother-in-law's hair salon, an improperly installed POCO meter with an intermittent connection on one phase. )

Only reasons I think it is NOT a loose neutral is that first off, no mention was made of burned out stuff or lights _*getting brighter*_. 

Second was this one: 



daks said:


> ......I turned up the thermostat on the heater (240V) and the computer across the room turned on!
> 
> I immediately turned the thermostat back down and the computer powered down.


Classic case of backfeed to a dead phase through a resistive load. :thumbsup:

(In the case of my BIL's salon, we got the dead loads to sort-of work by turning on the central AC.)


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## NacBooster29 (Oct 25, 2010)

I'm going with a ghost...


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## daks (Jan 16, 2013)

And the winner was









Until I went down to the heater I was thinking loose neutral, bad connection or just too much hackery causing voltage drop. 

What AMAZED me was not one unit completely lost power, so many "clumped connections" in the ceiling grid, backfeeding everywhere. 

Lol the main control room is one floor below behind a sub place, go in there and ask for access to the back room, lady calls the owner and his reply was "Since he's not here, he's not allowing anyone into the back", I just looked at the lady, laughed then said " I have to shut down power for the upstairs floors to do some emergency work, if I can't shut it down from your back room, I'll have to shut down power to the whole plaza for about 3-4 hours while I work, so in about 15 mins be prepared for no power, sorry"

Lol her eyes go all wide, she's right back on the phone again as I'm walking out the door. She runs out to my truck all in a panic with the phone in her hand, "boss says it's ok for you to go into the back". 


Replace wire, check continuity, replace fuse. Put on protective gear, power up. 

Since this is now almost 22:00 there is no-one in these offices, so it should be just electric heaters working, clamped the feed from the splitter,

C 97 amps
B 62 Amps
A 22 Amps (It was A fuse that blew)

Sigh, add note to invoice;

Strongly recommend complete rewire of second floor of plaza due to;
Code violations too numerous to list.
Questionable wiring practices.
Imbalanced loading. 

I know this owner has had "handymen" doing the unit renovations, and by the looks of those junction box connections they must have done some of the electrical work too. Sigh. 

Debating if I should "whisper" something to one of the electrical inspectors. What do you think?

Every time I look in that panel room I just want to weld a machete to a weed-wacker and "go to town".


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

daks said:


> Debating if I should "whisper" something to one of the electrical inspectors. What do you think?


It's called "code enforcement" in most municipalities and it can be called anyonomously.

I'll answer your question with a question: How would you feel to flip on the TV and find that 16 women and children were killed in an electrical fire in that mall some years down the road?


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## daks (Jan 16, 2013)

five.five-six said:


> It's called "code enforcement" in most municipalities and it can be called anyonomously.
> 
> I'll answer your question with a question: How would you feel to flip on the TV and find that 16 women and children were killed in an electrical fire in that mall some years down the road?



Thanks.

Just wanted to confirm if I was getting too "desensitized" (or too fussy) to some of the crap I'm seeing and the idiot customers I'm dealing with. 

Going from working on new construction and custom mansions to these emergency trouble shooting calls makes me feel like I'm walking into a different country sometimes. 

"Can't you fix the connection, wire or put some of that electrical tape on it or something?"

"Mam, if I wrapped the whole building in 50 layers of electrical tape it would only reduce the shock hazard, and only increase the fire hazard"


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

did you find the cause of the overload ?


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## daks (Jan 16, 2013)

wildleg said:


> did you find the cause of the overload ?


 Nope, and that's one of the many reasons I hate these types of buildings/ panels/hacknests. 

Another guy went back this morning and there were no major differences in the readings and none of the offices reported equipment not working. 

My vote is that;
Someone brought in some cheap a/b/c/d/e , plugged it in,
it went nuclear, they unplugged it and tucked it away
the reliable FP breaker held on with all it's might,
and the fuse saved the day. 

a) heater

b) microwave

c) floor machine / vacuum

d) copier

e) they would not admit it anyways


The inspector may stop by to check out the LED retrofits done to the office lighting, :whistling2: lol I hope he brought enough pens and paper.


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## 51360 (Jun 9, 2014)

daks said:


> And the winner was
> 
> View attachment 50121
> 
> ...


I'll play devils advocate here. 

Let's say you or another EC was called in to fix this mess. Where would you start?

Without being the one that was there, I would start with the blown fuse, and the issues surrounding that problem.

I guess you would start by towing in an office trailer and lunchroom, and maybe even a tool crib.  :laughing:

Borgi


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

You have talent... Id would have bailed.


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## daks (Jan 16, 2013)

Borgi said:


> I'll play devils advocate here.
> 
> Let's say you or another EC was called in to fix this mess. Where would you start?
> 
> ...


 I can't see any cost effective way of trying to fix that mess. 

I'd start by putting in disconnects for each office in the electrical room, then a new panel in each office. Feed the new panel from the disconnects attached to a new splitter system. 

Each night I would have the helpers lift the tiles in one office and unplug all equipment, we'd start hacking out the runs to the old panels. Locate/tone each line so we know what devices it goes to, and have a "clean path", megger them, then land in the new panel or re-pull as necessary. I figure 2 guys and 2 helpers could do one office a night. One guy on site in the morning to deal with issues and if no issues can start toning circuits.

I'd rent a cube van for all the scrap wire, another one for supplies. And have lots of carts for shuttling stuff back and forth to the scrap and supply trucks. 

Drywallers and painters on standby. 

I'd also have a couple big choppers for cutting up all the wire to the main panels into short sections so it takes up less space and easier to manage. 

Then I will come in with a nice big sledgehammer and beat the old panels and splitters off the wall. Taking out all my pent up worries and hatred for that much hackery having assaulted my eyes. 

Then I'd do the panels for the common areas. 

Then I'd take all that scrap wire, cash it in and go find a warm beach hut to drink in (with no electricity of course).


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## daks (Jan 16, 2013)

meadow said:


> You have talent... Id would have bailed.


TBH these kind of jobs scare the crap outa me, no matter how many times I deal with them. I have to grit my teeth to not walk away, only thing that stops me sometimes is I know whom they may call next, some hack who will not even cover the basics, to at least try and make it safer. Or get themselves or someone near them fried.


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## 51360 (Jun 9, 2014)

Great answer daks! :thumbsup:

If, for whatever reason, the AHJ got involved, you may be asked, ( by whomever is responsible ), to fix this mess. That's what I was getting at.

You're taking pictures, so even better. 

Good luck, keep us posted. 

Borgi


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

daks said:


> TBH these kind of jobs scare the crap outa me, no matter how many times I deal with them. I have to grit my teeth to not walk away, only thing that stops me sometimes is I know whom they may call next, some hack who will not even cover the basics, to at least try and make it safer. Or get themselves or someone near them fried.


You have a point. If they are at least willing to higher a real electrician might as well get it done.


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