# Why JW's and some Apprentices do not like summer helpers



## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

N2wires said:


> F>>>>>>U! I hope you got the same crap when you first started out too! This is why I will be one of the best!


Yeah...... well....

You might ooze a know-it-all attitude, and you're getting what you give. Just a thought. Best advice for an apprentice to to act like you don't know anything, even if you do, until called on. Sorry to say, but flying under the radar for a few years is just a basic survival tactic. Your time to shine will come soon enough, but it's not now.


----------



## Adam12 (May 28, 2008)

Best advice for an apprentice to to act like you don't know anything, even if you do, until called on. Sorry to say, but flying under the radar for a few years is just a basic survival tactic. Your time to shine will come soon enough, but it's not now.[/quote]

Well put Shunk, truer words were never spoken :thumbsup:. 

Thats how I made through the first 2 years.


----------



## Panic661 (Oct 24, 2008)

TBH its a hazing. That's all. Everyone who went in as a first year apprentice and is now a JW went through some sort of hazing..

But realise, you aren't the only guy thats ever had a family started this trade late in life and is now trying to break through and get somewhere. They went through it as well, and ya, there will be days where you feel like everyone can piss off..

Don't show you're affected, let your work show who you are, you get respected by your work. And yes, right now, you know nothing, even if you do, and you basically fly under the radar..

Assholes and elbows..thats it man.


----------



## unionwirewoman (Sep 7, 2008)

As an 3rd year app in the IBEW....all I can say is where I'm from , work is so slow that I've been traveling for 7 months . Sometimes I was able to come home on weekends...most of the time not . As far as brothers treating you bad.....you have to be able to put yourself in their position . We pay our dues every month to have what we have . You must have WAY different policies than we do , if your not in the program....you do nothing electrical . Keep in mind that the people you pis# off today will come back to bite you in the as# later on in the program .

That being said...I'm glad you're trying to get your foot in the door ! Nothing wrong with it ....you just have to go through the right channels sometimes . Remember also that what you are going through.....almost everyone has , and are still .


----------



## nick (Feb 14, 2008)

*old helper times/ good times*

Well thinking back when i started they ask me if i knew how to bend pvc ?for fun the guys put in the box heater purple loads from the stud gun after a few minutes of pipe bending it blew up like the 4th of july !! but its all how you look at it i think every place is the same , so after a few months i put purple loads in the leadmans heat gun they never mess with me again but dont do that please . Take it on the chin its just work today people get to uptight about things just show them your a worker and a good electrician youll see they will come around thats kind of normal trade thing . best to ya and good luck on your new job .been there brother


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

> *in starting my career in the IBEW*


1. You are starting a career as an electrician, I hope. 



> that they think work is being taken from other brothers


2. That is because they are simple SH*Ts

Brotherhood is a myth, many of these members (just like some open shop workers) are fools and to be honest I do not like it when they call me brother.

Be an IBEW brother and show up in another jurisdiction and watch brotherhood in action.

Having said that you are GREEN and few electricians have tolerance for the color GREEN. They have forgotten their early days in the trade, or were dumped on so bad they can't wait for revenge. Chill out this too shall pass.


----------



## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

Remember there are a lot of electricians helpers who just suck at everything and slow people down, maybe you fall in that category. Or maybe your just a slow learner or something and the guys have just lost patience with you. What ever the reason your getting a free education so I would not whine so much.


----------



## worn kleins (Dec 13, 2007)

N2wire, Do you have any background in construction? I'm asking 'cause a lot of the guys coming in now have not had any shop classes in high school, there might not have been any hand tools at home or any other number of reasons that some guys have no expeirience with some basic skills. I had a second year apprentice not long ago and I swear this guy didn't have clue about construction. Many years ago, God here I go again, most of the guys had more knowledge about construction. That second year I refered to, we put his hack saw blade in backwards to see if he would figure it out and how long it would take him. I told him to cut a piece of 1/2 in emt and we watched him just go like hell trying to cut the pipe. He never did figure it out.
The main thing like everyone else said, keep your head down and lay low for awhile. Here is a saying you should always remember. "there is no one so smart as a first year apprentice, nor no one as stupid as 5th year". 
Another thing, about the guys saying you are taking a job from a "brother". If memory serves me, the summer helpers and the pre-apprentices don't pay any dues, and this ruffles some feathers. A lot of summer helpers do not later join the union, they are just cheap help for the summer. If you're joining, make sure everyone knows your a pre-apprentice.
You may have to travel some day and you will find some rough times from local hands that don't want you there. Now's a good time to learn to keep your attitude right, no offense, I'm just saying. And if you do travel and locals have men on book 1, it's time to go.


----------



## Rong (Feb 23, 2008)

I am afraid it will get worse before it gets better for you. Alot of IBEW members are jealous of their work. They feel by not helping out a fellow worker or showing the how to do something is protecting their jobs. I think this is total bunk myself. My thinking is to help out as much as you can, share your knowledge. I would much rather work with a well trained person than someone who does not have a clue of whats going on.

Hang in there, bug the JATC to get in the apprentice program. Stay low do your job and try to stay away from the trouble makers if you can. 

Good luck I know it is hard to work in a hostile work environment but it will get better once you prove yourself.


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

My attitude has always been teach them as much as I can then next time I can watch them work or better yet stay home and they can do it all. 

I worked with jerks as an apprentice and I swore not to be one of those, sometimes I am nice other times I get frustrated with greenies.


----------



## sparky970 (Mar 19, 2008)

We don't have that in our jurisdiction, some locals have material handlers. I don't see an issue with that program, as long as there are no apprentices out of work. If there's apprentices on the book, then yes, you are taking someone's job. Do you make the same money as a 1st year?


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

I have summer helpers every year, Andrew age 20 number one son, Kevin age 18 number 2 son work in the field and my daughters work in the office sometimes. There have to be some benefits to owning a company.​


----------



## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Prima Donnas fit right in with the plumbers.

Go down to the UA hall and give that a try.

Nobody cares what you did yesterday or how many mouths you have to feed.

They just want your very best effort, your A game, today, and tomorrow, and the day after that, and so on.


----------



## gilbequick (Oct 6, 2007)

miller_elex said:


> Nobody cares what you did yesterday or how many mouths you have to feed.
> 
> They just want your very best effort, your A game, today, and tomorrow, and the day after that, and so on.


Wow, where's the "brotherhood"?


----------



## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

gilbequick said:


> Wow, where's the "brotherhood"?


 What brotherhood? There was never any brotherhood when I was in the Union. :no:


----------



## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

I think you have the brotherhood confused with the welfare office.

If you want free money and higher wages for less work, go apply for welfare.

Instead, bring your brightest people and best efforts to the brotherhood, THAT is where the distinction is made.

I make profitable installations for UNION Contractors, that means I have to produce at least as much as 1.5 nonunion electricians.


----------



## RxPdarkbox (Nov 6, 2008)

I am new to this. I JUST sent in my Apprenticeship app. and am awaiting confirmation and approval for a date to test!

I'm confident in the whole smear of tests. I learn quickly, and am still new blood... (21) trying to make a career choice that I will enjoy, and will be able to do for a long time!!!

Neways, from what I've read.... The union isn't as beautiful as it was played out to be from the websites! I am sure that I will still be able to get by and get along with people.... as that's how I roll.... But I was looking for some insight on how day-to-day operations go?

I am learning alot from this site! It's nice to hear actual feedback from how things actually go in the work-place, but I suppose my questions would be.... how do the "brothers" take in apprentices? I don't have construction experience, I learn crazy-fast, but I just want some info on how to "maybe" take people in.


----------



## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

miller_elex said:


> I think you have the brotherhood confused with the welfare office.
> 
> If you want free money and higher wages for less work, go apply for welfare.
> 
> ...


 I know I don't have them confused because I've never been on welfare.

When you talk about producing 1.5 what a nonunion worker does that is where you are wrong. I've worked on both sides and prefer the nonunion side. There are guys on both sides that bust there ass.


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

AS for the 1.5 BUNK, pure bunk

as for working union or open shop, work is work and if you are a decent person with good work ethics there is NO DIFFERENCE, till bennies and pay check time.


----------



## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

brian john said:


> AS for the 1.5 BUNK, pure bunk
> 
> as for working union or open shop, work is work and if you are a decent person with good work ethics there is NO DIFFERENCE, till bennies and pay check time.


 That is absolutly correct around here you can make about the same thing on either side.


----------



## RxPdarkbox (Nov 6, 2008)

BUT. On the outside... for your wages are benefits included? does it work about the same on either side of the fence???


----------



## Mountain Electrician (Jan 22, 2007)

miller_elex said:


> I make profitable installations for UNION Contractors, that means I have to produce at least as much as 1.5 nonunion electricians.


So it takes you 1.5 times the work to get the same result? I'm sorry, that must really be tiring. Hang in there!! Keep trying, it'll get easier. :thumbsup:


----------



## worn kleins (Dec 13, 2007)

It is a good thing that some are doing 1.5 times the work to make up for the slugs that have been taken in during the organizing drive. We used to think some of the organized guys were salting for the non-union. But that is the fault of the intense pressure put on the locals to bring in everyone with a pulse. The halls response is that the slugs will get weeded out over time by not being able to hold down a job. A guy was brought in as a 5th year apprentice, I sent him to bend a 90 on a piece of 2" ridgid, after watching him go at this piece of pipe for 15 minutes, no joke, I finally couldn't take it. I called the hall and asked them how the hell anyone could make any money on this crap, paying this guy basically JW wages. I put this guy to work with the last JW on the crew and he came back after about six hours and said to get this guy his check. He went back to hall soon afterwards. I ran into this guy about 5 or 6 years later working out of local 6. This guy was never weeded out, he just moved around from contractor to contractor, local to local. So it is good someone is making money for the contractor to make up for those that are a negative cash flow, on both sides.


----------



## RxPdarkbox (Nov 6, 2008)

That is something that I DON'T understand!!! I know it's unionized and guys feel SAFE from fire, that's my experience, but sometimes the union is a shield for lazy bastards to just get by! I would hope that if someone was doing a terrible job, that they could be fired.... I think the wages are too nice to be dealing with retards! 

I don't have any experience in this type of work setting, but I'm sure that I can do just about any job pretty well. I would hate to come in a year or two behind someone and start doing a better job!... I would like that for me, but not for purpose!


----------



## worn kleins (Dec 13, 2007)

Union construction workers are not safe from losing their jobs. It is real simple, ya just send them back to the hall. The part about unionized not being able to be fired does not apply to electricians in construction. You can be gone in a heartbeat. In fact there is a "right of refusal", if someone comes out and you know the guy is a slug, you can give him two hours show up pay and turn him around. There is another thing being jammed down on the locals and that is the "code of excellence" which I feel is bullcrap. Another case of big daddy ed hill acting like a facist. Just my opinion.
One thing to put in perpesctive Rx, just do your job and do it right, don't get caught up in crowing, someday you'll be older and not as fast as the new guys. Some youngsters once asked my forman why I was still around even after several layoffs since these youngsters could outrun me, which was true, they were faster at some things, but my knowledge and being able to get the job done was more important to the company. And there were times when I "took care" of old timers out of respect to them. It is very true that what goes around, comes around.


----------



## RxPdarkbox (Nov 6, 2008)

Worn... Thanks.

I ASSUMED that there was more to it than I knew. I don't like to talk trash at work! After reading through this site I have MORE respect for what you guys do. I'm one of the "youngsters" and I appreciate the honesty that you "old guys" :jester: are dishing out! I KNOW that I could be great at this. I just want to know how to approach things. I am sure that I will be criticized, if I make it in. But I now have a little understanding about where the other guys are coming from!

I like what the union does and stands for. I wish I had some experience from within. I have a pretty awesome ability to comprehend and do things with very little guidance!

I tend to ramble and lose my focus here because I dont know much about the topic at hand. But I just hope that I can ace the test and interview. I am preemptively getting focused for the exam and the interview. I sent my application off last week and started looking for information online and through just about any channel I could find. and you have all been awesome so far!

I appreciate the help, as well as the fact that you are even here!


----------



## Rong (Feb 23, 2008)

RxPdarkbox said:


> That is something that I DON'T understand!!! I know it's unionized and guys feel SAFE from fire, that's my experience, but sometimes the union is a shield for lazy bastards to just get by! I would hope that if someone was doing a terrible job, that they could be fired.... I think the wages are too nice to be dealing with retards!
> 
> I don't have any experience in this type of work setting, but I'm sure that I can do just about any job pretty well. I would hate to come in a year or two behind someone and start doing a better job!... I would like that for me, but not for purpose!



Around here it is easier to be fired or layed off being in the Union. The contractors have a much wider pool to choose from than our open shops. Union shops man up for jobs were the open shops tends to keep their help rather than let 'em go at the end of the job. Just because you are a member of the IBEW does not guarantee your job! In our local it is put out of get out. An honest 8 is what I strive for.


BTW I feel the same way about the "code of excellence" that is required to sit though. The sad thing is that it is not going to change anybodys way of thinking. I strongly believe in an honest 8 hrs worked with an honest wage.


----------



## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

worn kleins said:


> A guy was brought in as a 5th year apprentice, I sent him to bend a 90 on a piece of 2" ridgid, after watching him go at this piece of pipe for 15 minutes, no joke, I finally couldn't take it. I called the hall


Yeah, you sent a guy to bend rigid, when up until that point all he had done was concentric bends in Romex. Hell, even that is a compliment, I'll bet it was more like the unholy spawn of a birds nest and an octopus in Romex. 

The service dept. goes out on calls as far as Idaho. I've heard the electrical work over there in grocery stores has a hard time being distinguished from any other fire hazard. Its like a child's crayon scrawlings. Good for Idaho, they were the last state to go 'Right' to Work. In home magazine pictures I can tell they know hardly anything about homes either. Must be one of those states where the same crew builds the house from foundation to painting. <Got to respect those guys though, must feel like a true accomplishment to do a home like that.>


----------



## electrician1957 (May 12, 2008)

The OP is in Local 11. I used to be in Local 11. I'm a kick ass electrician. Therefore local 11 electricians are kick ass too. He just needs to relax and go with the flow. Local 11 rocks. The only reason I quit local 11 is because with my lifestyle I couldn't live on a paltry $36+ bennies.


----------



## Chicagoguy (Jan 30, 2008)

I must say that in my opinion, how you are treated depends on you, your attitude, your willingness to learn and your willingness to accept that you are a apprentice/helper. Everyone would love to start out new to the field and start piping, pulling wire and trimming in panels, but you have to accept the fact that you will be doing jobs that have nothing to do with electrical. Does it make sense for a company to pay $60/hr to have a JW fetch materials, clean material carts, gang boxes and to take in deliveries or the apprentice they are paying $25/hr for? Show them that you will accept whatever they have to through at you but let them know that you are interested in learning as well. You need to earn their trust and respect. If you can find yourself in a position where someone takes you under their wing, you will learn an awful lot, but it starts with everything I said before!

I can honestly say that I have never had a problem with a JW treating me poorly or like a piece of sh*t, in fact I am grateful every single day for working with the people I do.


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

> The OP is in Local 11. I used to be in Local 11. I'm a kick ass electrician. Therefore local 11 electricians are kick ass too.


You may very well be a kick ass electrician, but to automatically assume all memebers of 11 are kick ass is once again PURE BUNK.


----------



## daddymack (Jun 3, 2008)

> I AM TRYING TO BECOME AN IBEW ELECTRICIAN. Remember when you first started out.......... What is up with that B.S. Attitude? is that BROTHERHOOD? or TRADITION? Whatever. It won't stop me. I think it's rediculous and could cause static at work for sure. So for those of you that share the same B.S. Attitude. F>>>>>>U!


It seems as though this has become a board for apprentices to vent. 

I hope you are just venting because as I recall, many people on this board tried to help you out a few months back. I know pm'd you some info to try and help and this is the thanks we get?

Sorry you work for some a-holesbut at least at some point the job will come to an end and you will move on. In a few years you can become a JW, then you can really tell em how you feel.

Think about those folks who are stuck in jobs that they have to stay with and deal with the same crap year after year after year.

Since I don't work with you I can't really say how you should approach your situation or perhaps what you need to change.

You worked too hard to let some other people run you off.

What I do know is that the fine folks of this board have been on your side and really don't deserve that tone.


----------



## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

Adam12 said:


> Best advice for an apprentice to to act like you don't know anything, even if you do, until called on. Sorry to say, but flying under the radar for a few years is just a basic survival tactic. Your time to shine will come soon enough, but it's not now.


Well put Shunk, truer words were never spoken :thumbsup:. 

Thats how I made through the first 2 years.[/quote]


WOW. I made it thru my first couple of years by knowing **** and prooving it.
Then the "entrenched" were pissed coz I got raises.
So two paths:
Stand in line and take ****.
Or: form the line.

Yes, A knock on the hall.
With a caviat. SOME of You ARE some of the best trained and knowledgeable in the trade. Others, just know 1 asspect of the field, and go for the ride.
I know both types.

14 days missed-(unpaid) since 1982. MY CHOICE.
Thats the way I like it.


----------



## N2wires (Aug 27, 2008)

*you are right*



daddymack said:


> It seems as though this has become a board for apprentices to vent.
> 
> I hope you are just venting because as I recall, many people on this board tried to help you out a few months back. I know pm'd you some info to try and help and this is the thanks we get?
> 
> ...


Yea I am mainly venting, but I am sure you know what I mean. I totally appreciate YOU giving me solid advice I am directing my comment at people unlike yourself where I work that , from the gate, have it in for me because I am not an apprentice yet. BTW, I did take the exam this morning and will get the results on Monday! Wish me Luck!


----------



## electrician1957 (May 12, 2008)

brian john said:


> You may very well be a kick ass electrician, but to automatically assume all memebers of 11 are kick ass is once again PURE BUNK.


Oh, it's no assumption. I can prove it with geometric logic:

1. I am God's gift to electrical wiring.
2. I do not associate myself with lesser electricians.
3. I was a member of local 11.
4. Therefor everyone in local 11 is awesome.

Ahh, but the strawberries that's... that's where I had them. They laughed at me and made jokes but I proved beyond the shadow of a doubt and with... geometric logic... that a duplicate key to the wardroom icebox DID exist, and I'd have produced that key if they hadn't of pulled the Caine out of action. I, I, I know now they were only trying to protect some fellow officers...


----------



## 76nemo (Aug 13, 2008)

N2wires said:


> Yea I am mainly venting, but I am sure you know what I mean. I totally appreciate YOU giving me solid advice I am directing my comment at people unlike yourself where I work that , from the gate, have it in for me because I am not an apprentice yet. BTW, I did take the exam this morning and will get the results on Monday! Wish me Luck!


Sounds like you have gotten some good advice here. I started off on a bench with Industrial Electronics. Construction was never my passion. When I went into Electrical Maintenance, (Industrial), there were many times I would get called to one job, then get called to another, and get called to return and ask the other tech what the problem was. I got the reply, "Don't worry about it, the job ticket is complete" That is such bologna. Now since relocating, I don't see alot of "Brothership" in union construction. You're not alone. Again, I chose maintenance because it suits me finer. I like the service side of things and work with only one or two others normally on machinery/control work.

Okay, I am not your Daddy, and don't think I am deliberately being negative, but you have to stand back and drop the attitude. Even coming off with the adjective, F****** on this forum, is a bad way to start. Just keep it in your heart that you will one day greatly succeed, but don't think you'll get there by a super ego. You may have to dig, you may have to run errands, but whatever you do, you sit back and listen and soak in as much knowledge as possible. If you first and foremost let it be known you are willing to do any tasks in return for the teachings and knowledge, than it'll be seen you are paying your dues. I could relate this to so many fields.

You are going to deliberately make enemies, and just how far do you think that is going to get you without ticking off 85% of your crew? I can tell you first hand being polite and getting your hands pleasantly dirty will ramp your success 5-10X's faster than you coming in blitzing.

What did you say in the first place???? You said you were going to make a name for yourself,.....correct? Well, especially if you want to stay in your local,.....how in the world are you going to accomplish that bucking everyone???

If you can make friends with the senior dogs and ask if you can go on trouble calls, do it on your break or lunch. Make it be known you have the hunger. The hunger will get you somewhere, but the way you are approaching it now really comes off as arrogant and ignorant to the rest of your crew who may have been there for 10-20 years. Back off.

I'll end with this. You want to be one of the best? You prove it to yourself. You get your hands wet now, and you go home and study theory, estimating, whatever you want to study. Take pride in the fact your thirst doesn't stop at the timeclock. I hate to bring you down, but if you want to be one of the best, your thirst will NEVER completely quench before you retire. The field is huge. There aren't any true know-it-all's in this field. If you'd like to specialize in several of them, fine. You want to Master them all, good luck man. I have yet to see any one man or woman answer it all.

I know what it's like working around know-it-all's. I haven't had a hacksaw blade turned on me, but I have been messed with. Just go with the flow, some of these guys/gals are just breakin' you in. Laugh, live, but most importantly if you want to greatly succeed, DON'T EVER STOP LISTENING AND LEARNING!!!!!!! Soak in as much as you possibly can.


----------



## Mountain Electrician (Jan 22, 2007)

electrician1957 said:


> Ahh, but the strawberries that's... that's where I had them. They laughed at me and made jokes but I proved beyond the shadow of a doubt and with... geometric logic... that a duplicate key to the wardroom icebox DID exist, and I'd have produced that key if they hadn't of pulled the Caine out of action. I, I, I know now they were only trying to protect some fellow officers...


(click, click, click)


----------



## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

I don't know whether to classify myself as a helper or an apprentice anymore.

I'm probably somewhere in between.

I've been fortunate though, to not have to deal with some of the bull$hit some of these guys are complaining about. I've dealt with it in a different trade, but not this one, yet.


----------



## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

Bottom line:
Summer help,winter help what ever, If you choose to make the commitment to the trade and chose this path, you are an apprentice.
Your w2s in most States will attest to your working in the field.
This time counts,perhaps not in the formal way of some institutions,But for real in the eyes of the State or governing body who actualy issues the license

Pay attention and learn what you can. No one can remove your knowledge and experience.
Cheer up and roll with it!


----------

