# QO panel VS Siemens panel



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Apparently the OP is also an EC so I am reopening the thread.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

at one time i had though CU was all about high moisture basements, but i could rethink that with a little more info......~CS~


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## Teaspoon (Jan 10, 2009)

RlxdN10sity said:


> Looking to upgrade service in my own house. I have an affinity for panels with a copper bus. I also like good quality product and understand you pay more to get more.
> I went ahead and bought a QO 30/40 panel that was labeled copper buss on the box. I open it up and find that if it is copper it has been coated. I look at the Siemens panel and the buss is bare copper.
> Which is the better buss, coated copper or bare copper and why? What would want in your house? Thanks.


 
The square D QO is a good panel. A bit more expensive.
As far as the coated buss, In normal circumstances I doubt you will ever know the differance.
Personally I use the Siemens panel 99% of the time.
I like the lay-out of the Siemens. Breakers available at most supply houses & big box stores. Some what less expensive,than Square-D.
And Siemens has proved to be a good panel also.
Panel selection is a lot like Ford verses Chevy.


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## Service Call (Jul 9, 2011)

QO over ITE any day.


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

Personally I like qo because its a bit more user friendly for your average HO. I can't tell you how many customers I've had over the years that call and tell me they have a circuit out, and when I ask them if they checked all the Breakers they say " nothing seems to be tripped"
And of course when I get there its a ite or similar panel with the breaker in the trip position. Qo has the red dot that makes it easy to see.
But as of late I've gone to ge panels. A little cheaper especially since im on the supply houses program. Just trying to cut cost in these times go make a few extra bucks.


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

The other thing I like about qo is the neutral bus bars are closer to the top with two stacked rows. Makes it a little easier on service upgrades when many of the neutrals are short.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

captkirk said:


> Personally I like qo because its a bit more user friendly for your average HO. I can't tell you how many customers I've had over the years that call and tell me they have a circuit out, and when I ask them if they checked all the Breakers they say " nothing seems to be tripped"
> And of course when I get there its a ite or similar panel with the breaker in the trip position. Qo has the red dot that makes it easy to see.
> But as of late I've gone to ge panels. A little cheaper especially since im on the supply houses program. Just trying to cut cost in these times go make a few extra bucks.


There is nothing better then giving the customer the bill for resetting a circuit breaker:thumbup:
And besides there may be a problem so if they call an EC because there is a breaker triped there is a better chance that we may prevent a fire.


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## benski (Jul 29, 2011)

What about a Cutler Hammer CH panel? To me they are the best.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

benski said:


> What about a Cutler Hammer CH panel? To me they are the best.


Hear, hear. 

Copper bus, full shutoff "tripped breaker" feature, plus a 5-circuit terminal block that eliminates the need for wire nuts in their renovation-type load centers. QO is good too, but i don't have as much information about their products.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

QO is way over rated IMO. Seimans gets my vote because of the copper bus (on most of their products). CH, BR has bigger holes in their neutral/ground bus so you don't have to struggle with the #4 wire.


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## tkb (Jan 21, 2009)

RlxdN10sity said:


> Looking to upgrade service in my own house. I have an affinity for panels with a copper bus. I also like good quality product and understand you pay more to get more.
> I went ahead and bought a QO 30/40 panel that was labeled copper buss on the box. I open it up and find that if it is copper it has been coated. I look at the Siemens panel and the buss is bare copper.
> Which is the better buss, coated copper or bare copper and why? What would want in your house? Thanks.


Why do you need coppper buss?
You will have aluminum lugs on the copper buss.

Are you using copper wire?


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Ford, Chevy, Dodge. Whatever. My money buys Cutler Hammer CH for resi, unless they pick a cheaper option. I certainly don't think QO's suck (I install tons of them too), but I just think the Cutler Hammer CH is better.

Sent from my iPhone using the ElectricianTalk forum app. Please excuse my brevity.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

I like GE. For price and for some reason all the right wingers hate them. So I pick GE!


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## amptech (Sep 21, 2007)

Siemens just updated their load centers a couple of months ago. They now come with equipment ground buses separate from the neutral buses that are on each side of the interior. I liked the full-length G/N bars down each side but if your situation required a 4 wire feeder you had to either buy and install separate equipment ground bars or remove the bar that tied both sides together and use one for EGC and the other for neutrals. I hope GE Powerline Gold does the same thing soon. I like the plated bus in GE panels. I also like the galvanized finish of a GE enclosure vs gray paint of Siemens.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Murray bought out Siemans.. so now the breakers are the same.. 

Some of you say Murray are junk.. but I have never had problems with their products..


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

tkb said:


> Why do you need coppper buss?


 
Out here, we have lots of issues with AC breakers burning the bus but I only see it on Al bus.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

220/221 said:


> Out here, we have lots of issues with AC breakers burning the bus but I only see it on Al bus.


How is that even possible if the properties of aluminum are lesser than that of copper?

Nevermind


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

B4T said:


> Murray bought out Siemans.. so now the breakers are the same..
> 
> Some of you say Murray are junk.. but I have never had problems with their products..


It's the other way around, chief.  Siemens bought Murray, or at least the brand name Murray. I'm not sure what product line preceded Murray but I think it was Crouse Hinds distribution equipment.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Peter D said:


> It's the other way around, chief.  Siemens bought Murray, or at least the brand name Murray. I'm not sure what product line preceded Murray but I think it was Crouse Hinds distribution equipment.


Chief :laughing:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

For new work, it's Square D for me. 

Anything else is match existing.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Peter D said:


> For new work, it's Square D for me.
> 
> Anything else is match existing.


You must be one of those crazy right-wingers otherwise you'd be installing those crappy GE panels. :laughing:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> You must be one of those crazy right-wingers otherwise you'd be installing those crappy GE panels. :laughing:


:laughing: 

GE? Blech!! :no:


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

all i know is, when I open the box for the GE panel it says made in USA so that suits me fine..I use qo for all commercial stuff.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

I've had issues with half-size GE breakers failing internally, but no special problems otherwise. They're very rare in my area, and I only run into them in manufactured homes.


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## Roadhouse (Oct 16, 2010)

testing.


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## RlxdN10sity (Apr 8, 2007)

tkb said:


> Why do you need coppper buss?
> You will have aluminum lugs on the copper buss.
> 
> Are you using copper wire?


Yes I am using copper wire. I always run copper from meter base to main breaker and from top of meter base socket out the top of the riser.


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## Dfresh64 (Sep 10, 2011)

QO panels are much better. ( I think) over the years I have never changed out sq d but I have changed out GE , Siemens because of burn out , over loaded on breakers. Sq d breakers always trip. The ITE Breaker will hold up to 20 amp without tripping . But the new ones might be better just have not used them .


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Ge is very common in my area but I still go for Square D QO. I try to use QO as much whenever price allows, The absolute best for both commercial and resi in my opinion. As for GE the the breakers take a lot more time and current to trip and the inside of the can is so fragile. I also cringe at the 4 stacked mainbreaker design.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

....


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

Im not in love with GE stuff but im less than thrilled that QO is now owned by a French company, Telemenique. Not that I have anything against the French, Ive worked with many of them in the past and like them very much but I would rather buy stuff that is made in this country... So for resi its GE and everything else QO. How could you not love that red trip dot...?


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## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

I like QO more than anything else for a few reasons:

1) Neutrals all at the top - keeps them far away from grounds and so it's much easier to make it nice and neat.

2) With the neutral bar up at the top, you can put an arc fault breaker wherever you have to since nothing is in the way. This is one of the biggest reasons I hate Cutler Hammer BR panels and if it were up to me I would never use them even though they are cheap and ours are made in Canada. You can only put AFCIs on the lower 1/3 of the panel(at least the 200A 42 space MB panels) since their AFCI breakers are gigantic bricks and would otherwise not seat on the bus properly because the neutral bar would be in the way. If, for convenience and neatness during cut-in you chose to move the ground bar further away from the outer edge of the enclosure(using the holes they pre-drilled for this) then it further reduces where you can put an arc fault to the bottom 2-3 spaces. This is a completely moronic and illogical design that obviously predates AFCIs. Either they need to make smaller AFCIs or redesign the panel interior. Not knowingly sell a flawed design. Siemens AFCIs are the same size as their normal single pole breakers, so they don't have this issue. 

3) The enclosure is made of, or seems to be made of, thicker steel than other brands. The feel is more solid and the concentric knockouts come out quickly and perfectly every time.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

captkirk said:


> Im not in love with GE stuff but im less than thrilled that QO is now owned by a French company, Telemenique. Not that I have anything against the French, Ive worked with many of them in the past and like them very much but I would rather buy stuff that is made in this country... So for resi its GE and everything else QO. How could you not love that red trip dot...?


 GE is a dying breed here on LI. Only one supply house and Lowes still carry them. They are good resi panels, been using them for the last ten years or so on resi upgrades.


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## tkb (Jan 21, 2009)

RlxdN10sity said:


> Yes I am using copper wire. I always run copper from meter base to main breaker and from top of meter base socket out the top of the riser.


So you have an aluminum transmission line to the substation, 
aluminum distribution from the substation to your transformer, 
aluminum service drop, 
copper from the service drop to the aluminum lugs in the meter socket that has the aluminum buss, 
copper from the aluminum lugs in the meter socket to aluminum lugs in the panel that has copper buss.

Do you really think that the short piece of copper in the middle of all that aluminum helps anything?

I agree that the copper buss may help with the breakers that have steel clips, but the copper wire all nothing to the reliability to the system.
It only adds to the cost.

I would keep it aluminum wire to go with the aluminum lugs and buss in the meter.

I know the lugs are rated CU/AL but that's what I would do.


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## amptech (Sep 21, 2007)

tkb said:


> So you have an aluminum transmission line to the substation,
> aluminum distribution from the substation to your transformer,
> aluminum service drop,
> copper from the service drop to the aluminum lugs in the meter socket that has the aluminum buss,
> ...


Where I am, the transmission lines are hard-drawn copper. The PoCo connects the tranny to the primary with copper. They then run ACSR from the tranny to your riser if it is OH or AL URD to your meterbase if it is underground. I use only copper bus panels and I prefer plated copper. I have replaced truckloads of AL bus panels over the years because the bus blades melted off inside the breaker slot or corroded away to white powder inside the breaker slot. For less than a $15.00 per panel price increase, copper bus is well worth it. I also like to use copper conductors between the meter and the panel simply because they are smaller(2/0 CU vs 4/0 AL in resi)and easier to work with. I suppose it really depends on where you are located. Where I am there is a big temperature swing during the year(100º+ to -50º)and humidity out the wazoo. I hear aluminum holds up well and lasts a long time in warm, dry climates.


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## Tiger (Jan 3, 2008)

QO for me:

"Exclusive shielded copper bus features electro tin plated copper bus bars sandwiched between two rugged polymer shields to insulate and secure the interior."

I believe the tin plating is to help prevent oxidation of the copper.


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