# threeway nightmare



## ProdigalSon (Feb 10, 2011)

I am doing some work for a gentleman who wants his 3way hallway/stairway lites fixed and a dimmer installed. He says they used to work, but now if the upstairs lite is off, the downstairs won't turn it on OR off. In another hallway, I can't get a dimmer to work on the 3way application. (yes, it's a 3way dimmer switch) It's an OLD house, and all the wiring was done many years after the house was built, and is all old-work. I want to resolve this fast because I am doing this job for peanuts (in hopes of many referrals from this guy) and don't want to invest any more time than I have to. 

Any thoughts? Thanks for any help.

Rob


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Whichever switch fails to change the condition of the light, it's the OTHER switch that is miswired.

I've got a nickel that says the upstairs switch is wired wrong.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

ProdigalSon said:


> I am doing some work for a gentleman who wants his 3way hallway/stairway lites fixed and a dimmer installed. He says they used to work, but now if the upstairs lite is off, the downstairs won't turn it on OR off. In another hallway, I can't get a dimmer to work on the 3way application. (yes, it's a 3way dimmer switch) It's an OLD house, and all the wiring was done many years after the house was built, and is all old-work. I want to resolve this fast because I am doing this job for peanuts (in hopes of many referrals from this guy) and don't want to invest any more time than I have to.
> 
> Any thoughts? Thanks for any help.
> 
> Rob


First thing you need to do is find out which box has the feed.

Second find the box with the switch leg.

You should have a 3 wire between the two boxes your white wire should be the neutral.

Make sure they are not switching the neutral which in many cases that is what they did.
He said they worked before and I suspect that he tried to install the dimmer switch and messed up the whole thing.


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## ProdigalSon (Feb 10, 2011)

480sparky said:


> Whichever switch fails to change the condition of the light, it's the OTHER switch that is miswired.
> 
> I've got a nickel that says the upstairs switch is wired wrong.


Ahh... I never knew that. Thank you! That is very good to know.



HARRY304E said:


> First thing you need to do is find out which box has the feed.
> 
> Second find the box with the switch leg.
> 
> ...


Oh, the white is NOT the neutral. One of the legs, actually. I am quite adept at installing 3-ways; what makes my life hard is that not many others are...  I'd bet a million dollars that whomever wired this house was NOT a licensed JW.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

ProdigalSon said:


> I am quite adept at installing 3-ways; what makes my life hard is that not many others are...


Well heck, what are you asking us for? :laughing:


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

ProdigalSon said:


> Oh, the white is NOT the neutral.


In which box?


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

ProdigalSon said:


> Ahh... I never knew that. Thank you! That is very good to know.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, the white is NOT the neutral. One of the legs, actually. I am quite adept at installing 3-ways; what makes my life hard is that not many others are...  I'd bet a million dollars that whomever wired this house was NOT a licensed JW.


Keep in mind that the old timers loved to make it impossible to figure out what they did.:laughing:

So if the white is hot they have the feed and the switch leg in the same box.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

hardworkingstiff said:


> Well heck, what are you asking us for? :laughing:


:laughing:


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## emahler (Oct 13, 2011)

ProdigalSon said:


> Ahh... I never knew that. Thank you! That is very good to know.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, the white is NOT the neutral. One of the legs, actually. I am quite adept at installing 3-ways; what makes my life hard is that not many others are...  I'd bet a million dollars that whomever wired this house was NOT a licensed JW.


Not to piss on your Cheerios (screw it, I'm gonna anyway). Anyone who truly understands 3 ways, understands how to make them work no matter what. 

A good mechanic/technician would be able to remove both switches, decipher the wires (feed, switch leg and travelers) in about 10-15 mins, and reinstall new switches. 

A good mechanic would also know in 10 mins if the correct # of wires are available and if the switch ever worked. 

Old or new, the above holds true. 

Only caveat would be buried splices that were unknown. 
But, 10 min troubleshoot would indicate that there was a problem.


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## emahler (Oct 13, 2011)

hardworkingstiff said:


> Well heck, what are you asking us for? :laughing:


He didn't say that, someone else did


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## ProdigalSon (Feb 10, 2011)

emahler said:


> Not to piss on your Cheerios (screw it, I'm gonna anyway). Anyone who truly understands 3 ways, understands how to make them work no matter what.
> 
> A good mechanic/technician would be able to remove both switches, decipher the wires (feed, switch leg and travelers) in about 10-15 mins, and reinstall new switches.
> 
> ...


 
Thank you for your VERY constructive advice. YOUR help gave me all the knowledge I need to fix this unseemly problem. I have no idea how I ever figured anything out before you enlightened me. 

You add nothing to this conversation. The time you spent typing your reply was wasted. MY reply, however, made me feel MUCH better. Good thing you came out of the birth-canal knowing everything. :thumbsup: Good day, sir. :thumbup:


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

480sparky said:


> Whichever switch fails to change the condition of the light, it's the OTHER switch that is miswired.
> 
> I've got a nickel that says the upstairs switch is wired wrong.


never thought about it that way.. thanks!:thumbsup:


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## emahler (Oct 13, 2011)

ProdigalSon said:


> Thank you for your VERY constructive advice. YOUR help gave me all the knowledge I need to fix this unseemly problem. I have no idea how I ever figured anything out before you enlightened me.
> 
> You add nothing to this conversation. The time you spent typing your reply was wasted. MY reply, however, made me feel MUCH better. Good thing you came out of the birth-canal knowing everything. :thumbsup: Good day, sir. :thumbup:


LOL. My bad. You are, after all, adept.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

ProdigalSon said:


> Thank you for your VERY constructive advice. YOUR help gave me all the knowledge I need to fix this unseemly problem. I have no idea how I ever figured anything out before you enlightened me.
> 
> You add nothing to this conversation. The time you spent typing your reply was wasted. MY reply, however, made me feel MUCH better. Good thing you came out of the birth-canal knowing everything. :thumbsup: Good day, sir. :thumbup:


:laughing::laughing:


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## cal1947 (Nov 14, 2009)

*retired*

could be a california 3way system


ProdigalSon said:


> Thank you for your VERY constructive advice. YOUR help gave me all the knowledge I need to fix this unseemly problem. I have no idea how I ever figured anything out before you enlightened me.
> 
> You add nothing to this conversation. The time you spent typing your reply was wasted. MY reply, however, made me feel MUCH better. Good thing you came out of the birth-canal knowing everything. :thumbsup: Good day, sir. :thumbup:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

cal1947 said:


> could be a california 3way system


Carter 3-way
Chicago 3-way
Farmer 3-way
Power Beyond 3-way
Travelling Bus 3-way
Reverse 3-way
Coast 3-way
Illinois 3-way
Barnyard 3-way
Handy-Man 3-way
Lazy Neutral 3-way

et al


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## NacBooster29 (Oct 25, 2010)

Sounds like you need an electrician. Look on Craigslist.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Eric is going to be so disappointed with the true subject of this thread.


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## walkerj (May 13, 2007)

BBQ said:


> Eric is going to be so disappointed with the true subject of this thread.


I was too


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## Lone Crapshooter (Nov 8, 2008)

480 I would like to see a diagram for each of those circuits. I have probably seen the most of them but I have never had a name put on the circuit.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

A year or two ago I came across a 3-way that had its power feed into one end, but only had a 2-wire cable (just the travellers) going between the switches. It picked up the neutral at the other switch box and then went up to the light. Took me a bit of time to figure it out but I wound up just leaving it that way anyhow. Didn't want to get a 3-wire cable from box #1 to box #2.

Anyway I wound up using that trick at my house to get a 3-way switch setup on an unfishable switch box for my front entry room. :thumbup:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Lone Crapshooter said:


> 480 I would like to see a diagram for each of those circuits. I have probably seen the most of them but I have never had a name put on the circuit.


California / power-beyond / farmer / handyman 3-way:










Travelling bus 3-way:


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## Lone Crapshooter (Nov 8, 2008)

Thanks 480

LC


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## crazymurph (Aug 19, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Carter 3-way
> Chicago 3-way
> Farmer 3-way
> Power Beyond 3-way
> ...


Could you provide a diagram for each? That would be a great learning tool.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

crazymurph said:


> Could you provide a diagram for each? That would be a great learning tool.


Most are the same but different names. 
Except the Chicago one,,, that's done in conduit.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

480sparky said:


> California / power-beyond / farmer / handyman 3-way:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Another version of the top drawing is where a hot and a neutral is run to each of the switches, and not always from the same circuit. I found that out on a service upgrade many years ago when we ended up having the two circuits feeding the three ways on opposite legs in the new panel and putting 240 to the fixtures.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Eric is going to be so disappointed with the true subject of this thread.


What do you think I am, some sort of pervert?


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

BBQ said:


> Eric is going to be so disappointed with the true subject of this thread.


I was thinking 2 ugly chicks who refused to leave.


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

erics37 said:


> What do you think I am, some sort of pervert?


you're not? :blink:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

erics37 said:


> What do you think I am, some sort of pervert?


Some sort of yes. :laughing:


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## Davethewave (Jan 6, 2012)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> Another version of the top drawing is where a hot and a neutral is run to each of the switches, and not always from the same circuit. I found that out on a service upgrade many years ago when we ended up having the two circuits feeding the three ways on opposite legs in the new panel and putting 240 to the fixtures.


Sounds like RF would eliminate TS. Easy out.... . Somehow TS 3ways separates the men from the boys.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> Another version of the top drawing is where a hot and a neutral is run to each of the switches, and not always from the same circuit. I found that out on a service upgrade many years ago when we ended up having the two circuits feeding the three ways on opposite legs in the new panel and putting 240 to the fixtures.


 
Don.,

Yeah I have went thru the same thing on old tube et knobers they were pain in arse and I got wise after that when every time I ran into upgrading if still keep the old T&K for some reason I try to keep the same phasing as I can so it will not blow the luminiare bulbs out quick.

Merci,
Marc


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## donselec (May 7, 2011)

don't overlook the switches them selves being bad.
i went to a house where homeowner must have changed his old switches out.
and between mis wiring i found 3 bad 3ways..:whistling2:


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## RMatthis (Nov 9, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> Make sure they are not switching the neutral which in many cases that is what they did.
> He said they worked before and I suspect that he tried to install the dimmer switch and messed up the whole thing.


I've run into many old home with knob and tube, and switching the neutral in a 3way was common practice. The first time I ran into it (many years ago), it confused the hell out of me. If this is the case, you need to re wire this properly per the NEC. You'll be kicking yourself with callbacks later if you don't.


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