# panal change how long?



## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

Im right there with ya. Im not the fastest, but I am neater than most.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

6-7 hours for a panel change alone (not changing the service and grounding) is very long.

It would be better for the customer if you made a larger hole in the drywall allowing you to get done quicker.


----------



## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

6-7 hours for a job like that is reasonable.


----------



## jett95 (Sep 18, 2012)

I can do a whole new service in that amount of time


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

HackWork said:


> 6-7 hours for a panel change alone (not changing the service and grounding) is very long.
> 
> It would be better for the customer if you made a larger hole in the drywall allowing you to get done quicker.


:blink:

I don't see how it's better for you to butcher their wall just to do something faster.

Remember you're an electrician not a breakfast cook at a pancake house.


Do it as fast as you can you'll have a mess and call backs.

Take your time and make sure everything is done perfectly and you'll have happy clients.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> :blink:
> 
> I don't see how it's better for you to butcher their wall just to do something faster.


 Well Harry, there is a difference between "butchering their wall" and making a 6" notch above their electrical panel.

Getting 35 circuits into a panel flush mounted in the wall is a hard process which could take a long time. IMO, you would be providing a better service to the customer to make the small notch above the panel and get the work done. 

Then, the customer could patch the 3 small lines above the panel with ease, or even pay someone, still costing much less than paying an electrician to pull his pecker for 7 hours. 

Again, it's above an electrical panel which will be out of the main living area or have a picture over it, so even a customer provided patch job should suffice.



> Remember you're an electrician not a breakfast cook at a pancake house.
> 
> Do it as fast as you can you'll have a mess and call backs.
> 
> Take your time and make sure everything is done perfectly and you'll have happy clients.


You've taken it to the exact opposite extreme Harry. No one is promoting not doing good work. Work can still be done "perfectly" even if a hole needs to be made. In the end, that's a decision for the customer, and all of mine have chosen to have the notch made.


----------



## crazyboy (Nov 8, 2008)

Cut the rock and put one of these in over the panel. Then you can get to it when it comes time to fish in another circuit. http://powerhouse-industries.com/products.html


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

crazyboy said:


> Cut the rock and put one of these in over the panel. Then you can get to it when it comes time to fish in another circuit. http://powerhouse-industries.com/products.html


I've never seen that before. Good idea, but their model looks a little ugly (IMO).

I've put a 4 gang low voltage ring and blank plate over the top of a panel a couple times when changing panels out in condos. This way it is closed up when I am done and they could choose to leave the cover plate or patch the hole.

I've been doing that type of thing a lot lately. If I need to make a hole in the ceiling for access I use my 4 3/8" grit holesaw and drill a plug out, then put a 4" round low voltage ring and blank cover plate. I tell the customer that the plug is laying up int he ceiling incase they ever want to patch the hole, but they are almost always fine with the blank plate.


----------



## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

I'm a big fan of plumbing access panels


----------



## cotes17 (Dec 19, 2011)

crazyboy said:


> Cut the rock and put one of these in over the panel. Then you can get to it when it comes time to fish in another circuit. http://powerhouse-industries.com/products.html


thats pretty slick but i do agree its a bit bulky. maybe if you can get a slimmer one, i'd be all over that. Very good idea for access later


----------



## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

hax, you can pull your pecker for 7 hours and still get service done?:laughing::laughing:


----------



## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

HackWork said:


> I've never seen that before. Good idea, but their model looks a little ugly (IMO).
> 
> I've put a 4 gang low voltage ring and blank plate over the top of a panel a couple times when changing panels out in condos. This way it is closed up when I am done and they could choose to leave the cover plate or patch the hole.
> 
> I've been doing that type of thing a lot lately. If I need to make a hole in the ceiling for access I use my 4 3/8" grit holesaw and drill a plug out, then put a 4" round low voltage ring and blank cover plate. I tell the customer that the plug is laying up int he ceiling incase they ever want to patch the hole, but they are almost always fine with the blank plate.


I've been doing that for years , and most people don't have a problem with it . If they paint the plate it almost disappears and there's still access if it's ever needed again . I hate patching , lol !


----------



## SVT CAMR (Apr 17, 2012)

HackWork said:


> Getting 35 circuits into a panel flush mounted in the wall is a hard process which could take a long time. IMO, you would be providing a better service to the customer to make the small notch above the panel and get the work done.


You guys need to do a panel change in the Chicago area with pipe. I manage to get it done with out damage most of the time. 

Romex and SEU would be a dream for me. I understand that sometimes it is a problem but I look at it like cutting in a BIG gem box. :whistling2:


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

SVT CAMR said:


> You guys need to do a panel change in the Chicago area with pipe. I manage to get it done with out damage most of the time.
> 
> Romex and SEU would be a dream for me. I understand that sometimes it is a problem but I look at it like cutting in a BIG gem box. :whistling2:


I've done a lot of piped in panel changes, a few with pipe on all 4 sides. But that was commercial union work in which a laborer cleaned up my mess, a carpenter replaced the drywall, a taper patched the seams, and a painter painted it :thumbup::laughing:


----------



## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

Harry, why are you such a jerkoff?....And a Red Sux fan...how lame...


----------



## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

Harry loves ****


----------



## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

HARRY304E said:


> :blink:
> 
> I don't see how it's better for you to butcher their wall just to do something faster.
> 
> ...


This is one I hacked in yesterday. 










Hated to butcher the wall like that, but old FPE panel with 2x4 scabs to fit in wall space. Had to open up the wall to remove the scabs to get my 14 1/2"

From the time I arrived to look at the job, go get the material, install it and clean up I had 3 hours in the job. $150 in material, collect $800. 

Guess this makes me a breakfast cook at a pancake house. :thumbup:


----------



## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

drspec said:


> This is one I hacked in yesterday.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


:thumbup1:


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

I buy these by the case load http://www.amazon.com/Thomas-Betts-NC501SC5-Lock-Connector/dp/B000BQR286

They are handy as hell when replacing panels cause they don't stick out. For the ser cable I use a similar type that is sort of like the grommet that you run the printer cable thru on a desk , and yeah I know it is not a listed fitting for that, but I don't pay attention to that sort of drivel when I am swapping out a panel... Inspector comes- looks at the labels and circuit breakers and grumbles about getting called to such a chickensh_t little pain in the ass job and leaves. Never looks inside the panels.


----------



## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

What is a panal?


----------



## Voltron (Sep 14, 2012)

bobelectric said:


> What is a panal?


It's a Spanish word... having to do with bee hives??


----------



## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

macmikeman said:


> I buy these by the case load http://www.amazon.com/Thomas-Betts-NC501SC5-Lock-Connector/dp/B000BQR286
> 
> They are handy as hell when replacing panels cause they don't stick out. For the ser cable I use a similar type that is sort of like the grommet that you run the printer cable thru on a desk , and yeah I know it is not a listed fitting for that, but I don't pay attention to that sort of drivel when I am swapping out a panel... Inspector comes- looks at the labels and circuit breakers and grumbles about getting called to such a chickensh_t little pain in the ass job and leaves. Never looks inside the panels.


Hey mac is it listed to accept more then one cable? I googled it but couldn't find a listing.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

flyboy said:


> Hey mac is it listed to accept more then one cable? I googled it but couldn't find a listing.


I don't know about those, but the typical arlington button connectors are. 

http://www.aifittings.com/products/spec-sheets/NM94.pdf


----------



## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

HackWork said:


> I don't know about those, but the typical arlington button connectors are.
> 
> http://www.aifittings.com/products/spec-sheets/NM94.pdf


Do you use these for both surface and recessed panels, or just recessed panels?


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

flyboy said:


> Do you use these for both surface and recessed panels, or just recessed panels?


I've switched to using them for everything. No more 2-screw metal romex connectors for me.


----------



## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

HackWork said:


> I've switched to using them for everything. No more 2-screw metal romex connectors for me.


That's what I was wondering. I'm not sure what my guys are using, but I'll be looking into on Monday. 

The old style two screw connectors take to much time install and they take up too much space on the top of a panel.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

flyboy said:


> That's what I was wondering. I'm not sure what my guys are using, but I'll be looking into on Monday.
> 
> *The old style two screw connectors take to much time install and they take up too much space on the top of a panel.*


AND, they've been the source of over-clamping and damaging the insulation which could lead to shorting or AFCI nuisance tripping. That's operator error, but it still happens.

The button connectors are super cheap and you could fit a hundred of them in a small pouch pocket without weighing down your toolbelt.


----------



## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

The EC I've been subbing for uses these: http://www.aifittings.com/catalog/non-metallic-fittings-and-supports/non-metallic-cable-connectors/ for everything. I think the black buttons hold better, but the grey ones look better for panel connectors.


----------



## Rochsolid (Aug 9, 2012)

drspec said:


> This is one I hacked in yesterday.
> 
> Hated to butcher the wall like that, but old FPE panel with 2x4 scabs to fit in wall space. Had to open up the wall to remove the scabs to get my 14 1/2"
> 
> ...


That is one ugly job


----------



## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

Rochsolid said:


> That is one ugly job


yep, fast and ugly. 

That was for an apartment complex that needed it done in a hurry. 

Drywall patch and paint and no one will know I was there.

Except that the FPE panel with the burnt up buss is replaced with a shiny new Siemens panel. :thumbsup:


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

That's a good point, it depends on the situation.

When you're working for an apartment manager, he won't really care much. It'll be patched and painted and no one will know a thing.

If it was directly for the homeowner who is going to be looking at it for a little while, then I would have cut the sides with a knife to prevent the paper from ripping out like it did and I would have cut the top nice and clean.


----------



## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

HackWork said:


> I've switched to using them for everything. No more 2-screw metal romex connectors for me.


Dont completely stop carrying the metal connectors, most garbage disposals need one. You'll never get a black button in the factory opening. 

Other than that, they are really no use to me.


----------



## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

MHElectric said:


> Dont completely stop carrying the metal connectors, most garbage disposals need one. You'll never get a black button in the factory opening.
> 
> Other than that, they are really no use to me.


I use them for bell boxes when I add an exterior receptacle as well

I keep black buttons, two ways, and metal romex connectors on the truck


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MHElectric said:


> Dont completely stop carrying the metal connectors, most garbage disposals need one. You'll never get a black button in the factory opening.
> 
> Other than that, they are really no use to me.


Yeah, I still have a bunch, it's good to have options.


----------



## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

drspec said:


> I use them for bell boxes when I add an exterior receptacle as well


Really? I just fly into the back of the bell box, no connector. Never had an inspector say anything about it.


----------



## Wirescraper (Nov 27, 2011)

Panel changeouts get estimated at 5-8 hours depending, service upgrades never under 8 hours


----------



## Wirescraper (Nov 27, 2011)

MHElectric said:


> Really? I just fly into the back of the bell box, no connector. Never had an inspector say anything about it.


That's how most electricians do it, I still let 'em hear what hacks they are though, especially one of the guys I work with (dude just hacks EVERYTHING in. I use 3/4 - 1/2 re w/ romex set srew connector. cut 1 3/8" hole so romex connect fits nice, smush duct seal behind box and remove excess that squeezes out sides after screwing in. I walk away feeling very proud of myself. Always drill weep holes just in case, although no connector guy really is the one who NEEDS weep holes.


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

The yellow ones are only listed for one connector. But I am a self professed hack when it comes to certain things and that is one of the things. That brand does not rip the sheath and pinch thru the insulation of the wire like the black ones will sometimes do.

I rarely ever use them on new work panel installations, mostly because I would have to limit myself to only one cable per opening....

They are terrific for hanging surface mount fluorescent lights and the like. They are way better for installation of undercab light fixtures than the stupid connector that comes with the light, but you do have to run the unibit into the fixture's ko to adjust it to size.


----------



## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

MHElectric said:


> Really? I just fly into the back of the bell box, no connector. Never had an inspector say anything about it.


that's hack

you've obviously never had an inspector actually open one up and look then


----------



## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

Wirescraper said:


> That's how most electricians do it, I still let 'em hear what hacks they are though, especially one of the guys I work with (dude just hacks EVERYTHING in. I use 3/4 - 1/2 re w/ romex set srew connector. cut 1 3/8" hole so romex connect fits nice, smush duct seal behind box and remove excess that squeezes out sides after screwing in. I walk away feeling very proud of myself. Always drill weep holes just in case, although no connector guy really is the one who NEEDS weep holes.


why use duct seal?

silicone around the tops and sides and call it good


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Bell box- Run a standard romex connector facing the opposite way thru the ko, so the screws are inside the bell box. Now you can tighten the screws on the sheath by sticking your skinny trim out screwdriver thru one of the side ko's on the box 


You guys all need to spend a week or two at the "University of Hawaii". Note- tuition is rising, place your order now before the next session.....


----------



## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

macmikeman said:


> Bell box- Run a standard romex connector facing the opposite way thru the ko, so the screws are inside the bell box. Now you can tighten the screws on the sheath by sticking your skinny trim out screwdriver thru one of the side ko's on the box
> 
> 
> You guys all need to spend a week or two at the "University of Hawaii". Note- tuition is rising, place your order now before the next session.....


 
that works fine if you are installing a standard duplex receptacle, but if you are installing a gfci receptacle it could be a tight fit.

unless you use a DEEP bellbox.

I actually use this method, but more for flood lights with round bell boxes.

you could actually leave a bit of slack in the cable, tighten the clamp like normal, and spin the bell box on.


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

drspec said:


> that works fine if you are installing a standard duplex receptacle, but if you are installing a gfci receptacle it could be a tight fit.
> 
> unless you use a DEEP bellbox.
> 
> I actually use this method, but more for flood lights with round bell boxes.



Kinda seldom do I put gfi's into bell boxes. I mostly will see to it they get cut into the siding. Once in a while on a pipe job, of course. Yea, floodlights all the time.


----------



## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

drspec said:


> that's hack
> 
> you've obviously never had an inspector actually open one up and look then


Thats a reasonable accusation. Im pretty sure I can live with that.


----------



## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

MHElectric said:


> Thats a reasonable accusation. Im pretty sure I can live with that.


just busting your balls

I could live with it too and would do it in a pinch, but wouldn't make a habit of it.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Wirescraper said:


> Panel changeouts get estimated at 5-8 hours depending, service upgrades never under 8 hours


There's a bunch of guys here who do full upgrades in a half day or less :whistling2:


----------



## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

3 hrs Star 

4-5hrs Tolerable if it's neat 

7-8hrs YOUR FIRED!!


----------



## Wirescraper (Nov 27, 2011)

Like I said, service upgrade = 8 hrs, work day = 8 hrs, if you're done sooner = bonus. You guys that do it in 7 hrs, then go to the next job are chumps, or maybe you work 9-10 hrs that day and go home early friday. I dunno. All I know is "It took 8 hours" - every time.


----------



## scott1 (Oct 12, 2012)

joebeadg said:


> Just wondering how long it takes other guys to do a 200A resi. panal change, flush into frame wall with sheetrock finish. lets say 35 circuits. And also, I carefully cut the sheetrock just big enough for the panal to go in the wall with no wall repair needed when I'm done, does everybody do that? I think I'm usually about 6-7hrs. Sometimes longer


We just cut about 2" above then after the panel is in we install molding all the way around. So far all my customers love it. We once made a door to cover the panel.


----------



## HadItUpToHere (Aug 16, 2013)

Never done a panel replacement or added a circuit in a finished home when a drywaller wasn't coming behind me to fix up what I do. I generally do new construction. This topic has been very informative for me :O

I find the wire window product interesting.

So in most people's experience customers are acceptable of 2" of drywall neatly removed above the panel? Or some method of access left to that point?

http://www.aifittings.com/catalog/non-metallic-fittings-and-supports/non-metallic-cable-connectors/

^ These are what I'm used to using


----------

