# Had my first break doing maintenance...



## shockme123

And blew it. This was a two week rotation at a lead smelter (combustible dust and old machinery, 60 year old substations) I come from a commercial background (Journeyman since March) so I guess I didn't know what I was getting into. It's too bad as I really liked the job (except for the dirt). I got the job through a placement agency, who I was told the super is only looking for engineering techs/engineers now (no surprise there) as he doesn't think the contracted electricians are good enough at servicing old equipment.

A lady at the placement agency is going to try to talk to the guy and see if he will give me a second chance, but I'm not that optimistic. 

How do I improve when I was only given a week at most to prove myself?


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## Peewee0413

Sometimes you have to hit the ground running and fart roses to make the cut at a maintenance job. Building a work history and know how is not easy, but once established you wont worry anymore.

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## MikeFL

Sounds like everyone in aggregate was not what the customer was looking for. Whether that was the fault of the group or the fault of the customer in not knowing what their needs are is the unknown. Also sounds like they didn't have a capable person making the decisions. I don't know how many of you guys they hired out of that placement agency but it sounds like they neglected to hire a chief who should have been hiring and directing the journeymen. Did this company recently take over this facility? Sounds like they have some organizing to do. Don't let all that fall too hard on your shoulders. I'm sure it's a bummer but the economy is good. There's plenty out there.


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## tjb

mikefl said:


> i'm sure it's a bummer but the economy is good. There's plenty out there.



qft.


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## JRaef

At an old lead smelter, it might be that they only keep people 2 weeks because otherwise the exposure to the lead in the dust becomes a liability for them from a health care standpoint. So they just cycle through people as "recruits", never really intending to put them on permanently and having only spent 2 weeks there, you can't come back at them later with a lawsuit over lead exposure.


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## shockme123

JRaef said:


> At an old lead smelter, it might be that they only keep people 2 weeks because otherwise the exposure to the lead in the dust becomes a liability for them from a health care standpoint. So they just cycle through people as "recruits", never really intending to put them on permanently and having only spent 2 weeks there, you can't come back at them later with a lawsuit over lead exposure.


There's a requirement to do a blood test every month for high lead, and if you're a contractor you're laid off, but staff get to stick around. 

Seems like I'm the only one affected for now. 

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## micromind

MikeFL said:


> Sounds like everyone in aggregate was not what the customer was looking for. Whether that was the fault of the group or the fault of the customer in not knowing what their needs are is the unknown. Also sounds like they didn't have a capable person making the decisions. I don't know how many of you guys they hired out of that placement agency but it sounds like they neglected to hire a chief who should have been hiring and directing the journeymen. Did this company recently take over this facility? Sounds like they have some organizing to do. Don't let all that fall too hard on your shoulders. I'm sure it's a bummer but the economy is good. There's plenty out there.


I agree completely. 

I seriously doubt if this is your fault, it sounds like your talent and experience (and likely a few others) is not what they're looking for. 

Don't take it personal, another opportunity will come by that'll be a better fit.


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## CoolWill

If they didn't like how electricians perform, they're going to have a blast with engineers doing the work:vs_laugh:


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## MechanicalDVR

JRaef said:


> At an old lead smelter, it might be that they only keep people 2 weeks because otherwise the exposure to the lead in the dust becomes a liability for them from a health care standpoint. So they just cycle through people as "recruits", never really intending to put them on permanently and having only spent 2 weeks there, you can't come back at them later with a lawsuit over lead exposure.



B I N G O !


Sounds more like reality.


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## shockme123

I thought the same myself. At least the electricians won't demand their own office.

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## shockme123

Do you believe in second chances? I'm trying to negotiate that right now. Whatever they want me to learn I think I can do it, rather than expect me to know how to do it right away.


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## gpop

shockme123 said:


> Do you believe in second chances? I'm trying to negotiate that right now. Whatever they want me to learn I think I can do it, rather than expect me to know how to do it right away.


industrial isn't for everyone. 

We all know that it takes time to come up to speed so its more to do with the guys around you then the managers. If they felt you had a sound knowledge of the job and could come up to speed in a reasonable amount of time they would have covered your arse and put in a good word for you. 

That job was probably not the best place to learn a trade that doesn't forgive fools. Old gear covered in a conductive dust would normally require a week of safety training before they let a skilled person loose on the floor. Add to that the dangers of working with a heavy metal like lead and the long term health affects it defiantly not a walk in and go to work type of job. 

Im tempted to agree with jref unless i found that they had some full time employees that have worked there for years. It just sounds way to dangerous for me.


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## Peewee0413

It's not the first time he's lost a job. Might be a struggling Sparky. Ever think about getting more education?

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## sparkiez

Seems like you have had some issues holding work. Man, working on larger gear in general is dangerous, let alone older gear and in those conditions. Count yourself lucky to be the hell out of there and find something else.


It is okay to want to expand a branch out into other aspects of the trade, but there is also nothing wrong with staying within your ability to earn yourself a living.


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## 460 Delta

JRaef said:


> At an old lead smelter, it might be that they only keep people 2 weeks because otherwise the exposure to the lead in the dust becomes a liability for them from a health care standpoint. So they just cycle through people as "recruits", never really intending to put them on permanently and having only spent 2 weeks there, you can't come back at them later with a lawsuit over lead exposure.


I had a job at an iron foundry a few years ago but declined it after talking to the older guys working there, graphite was EVERYWHERE and they all had a odd wheeze when they talked [think black lung]. That, and the low pay and draconian probation period caused me to walk away.
A lead smelter would only be worse, you're better off. This trade will beat you up under the best conditions, that would be worst conditions.


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## 99cents

A week? Sounds to me like they gave you a rusty tool box and told you to go and fix chit. A week is barely enough time to go through safety training, orientation, etc.

My advice if you want to get into industrial maintenance is to find a place big enough where you can get into facilities maintenance first. Essentially it means doing commercial work in an industrial setting. That gets your foot in the door.


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## paulengr

If I read between the lines they wanted someone that knows starters, drives, PLCs inside and out and can work without prints that are long gone anyway. Someone that can walk down the interlock chain in an old discrete relay starter to find the bad contact in a stop button long ago forgotten after 12 upgrades later. It takes a lot of experience to do that. I start guys out building and testing motor controls and PLC circuits in the shop where screwing it up is harmless. Tear down lots of broken stuff in the shop as a learning experience. It takes six months or more to get halfway decent at it. The trouble is there is no school that teaches industrial controls, no degree or certification for it. So it's hard to describe or find someone that can do it out of the box. You pretty much have to train them in house. The closest thing is an HVAC technician. I've seen engineers try to do it too. If they have training and experience as controls techs, they will do fine. But otherwise they're just as bad as commercial electricians with no controls experience. Companies see engineers from controls companies and assume that all electrical engineers can do the same thing.

The stuff you run into is like my day Friday. The job was at a feed mill. I started with they wanted a contactor replaced, part of a reversing set, based on what another contractor told them. The on site maintenance technician was at best a 2 year apprentice. I bought the mechanical interlock too because they are cheap and often the problem. Good thing as the contactor was fine, just the spring in the mechanical interlock broke so it locked out the contactor on one side. Once a I got it replaced (400 A hanging on flexible busbars, a one hour job) that's when the fun started. The guy before me was probably Kavanaugh. He's a local guy the feed mills call on but hes pretty clueless on controls. I saw the coil was disconnected but no telling what else he left. When they hit start the contactor pulled in and out three times. Then they got a start failure alarm and nothing ran but nothing else in one direction but not the other. Found a print from the manufacturer (was a customized soft start) and verified no site mods. The control wiring sends a forward or reverse run (two wire) command and there is run status feedback taken from the bypass contactor only. So whatever is going on is external to the starter. There were wire numbers so a couple cabinets later located the PLC. The output card was clearly firing three times but no inputs were changing states. No IO issues around the grinding mill like more disconnected or broken wiring. So this verified that it was something goofy the PLC was doing. It was unfortunately PLC troubleshooting time. So i had to break out the laptop and cordx and find the righf one and the right software license. Eventually got in and found a fan had to be running but only for one direction and the PLC checked that on a timer and some goofy lockout logic (3 strikes and you're out). It's the grossly overcomplicated type of code engineers typically write that often fails in unpredictable ways. Either way started the fan and everything worked as it should, 3 hours later. No prints except a controls schematic from a different controls company that did an upgrade and "took over" the controls. They tossed the original prints so only the new stuff had prints, not the older stuff I was working on. And this is on a 15 year old plant.

That's probably the expectation on top of wearing a full face respirator and all the usual industrial safety gear all day. It's a great place to learn from but it sounds like they're like the feed plant...They have no one to train you. I'd move on with this one but don't get discouraged. There are lots of places like that one that will train you but be prepared. They can give you time and opportunity but in reality you end up teaching yourself.

Usually in this situation the company knows what they want but will keep plugging away at failure after failure. They will pay outrageous money for a contractor like me to come in and do it. They will even offer me a job on the spot half the time. Then either management changes or they bite the bullet and take on someone and give them time to learn.

I've seen a tiny few companies do the practice of turning over temps when safety is an issue to avoid litigation. You can spot those a mile away when nobody is there longer than a month and nobody knows what is going on. In today's low unemployment environment that game doesn't work for more than 3 or 4 turns before they exhaust the pool.

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## stiffneck

I spent a few weeks at the Lead Smelter in Herculaneum, Missouri for Shannahan Crane/Hoist company. Even back in 1993 we gave a blood sample day one and then one later on. Although I remember Cement and Copper plants being dustier.


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## shockme123

Peewee0413 said:


> It's not the first time he's lost a job. Might be a struggling Sparky. Ever think about getting more education?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


What sort of education?

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## shockme123

stiffneck said:


> I spent a few weeks at the Lead Smelter in Herculaneum, Missouri for Shannahan Crane/Hoist company. Even back in 1993 we gave a blood sample day one and then one later on. Although I remember Cement and Copper plants being dustier.


That didn't really bother me. It's being laid off after two weeks is the problem. A lot of my overall employment woes are due to where I'm living, which is why I'm planning on moving soon. It's hard to move though with no job lined up on the other end, which is why I think I need more schooling 

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## Peewee0413

shockme123 said:


> What sort of education?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk


PLC courses, Motor controls, robotics(something like Fanuc).... anything. You want a carrer in industrial, then get training or experience. 

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## shockme123

Peewee0413 said:


> PLC courses, Motor controls, robotics(something like Fanuc).... anything. You want a carrer in industrial, then get training or experience.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


There are no vocational colleges in my area which offer any courses in those subjects.

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## 99cents

shockme123 said:


> There are no vocational colleges in my area which offer any courses in those subjects.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk


George Brown online.


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## shockme123

$1750 for a PLC course. I mean I could probably do it, but I noticed that engineers only have access to the programming, while we just plug in wires. Without a job lined up I feel like I'm just throwing money away.

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## paulengr

A lot of engineers should not have access to PLCs. Same with a lot of electricians.

The problem with engineers is that they overthink things. And they assume that they know how to program controls when they don’t. And they have difficulty understanding the world outside of a laptop. Case in point: Greg Q. worked on the code for a ductile iron for their melt shop for 2 years and never got anything working right past manual controls. It took me about 2 weeks using a program that was 80% smaller and about 95% faster at basically everything it did to the point where it waited on people instead of the other way around. Later he “upgraded” a cement casting machine so that it cut production to 25% of normal. Took me about 4 hours to figure out what he did and fix it. He didn’t get the idea that if we are using cement as fast as we mix it, we need to mix up a batch while we are using one. And weighing up sand and cement and heating up water for the next batch.

The problem with electricians on PLCs is different. They lose their minds as electricians. Once they have a laptop they forget all their other skills and the first thing they do with troubleshooting is start playing around in the PLC. They start adding timers and crazy input denouncing code instead of inspecting a limit switch and replacing it because it is almost destroyed, or attempting to code around a missing one with a timer instead of replacing one that is there for safety purposes. Or they just force everything until it works, especially safeties. They don’t bother talking to the operator or looking at the equipment or doing basic electrical checks first so they waste all their efforts fixing what isn’t broke (the PLC).

Without access they don’t have a laptop so instead they troubleshoot using the shotgun approach (shoot and see if it hits something) then call an engineer because even though nobody touched the PLC in 5 years something must have mysteriously changed in the program all on its own.

I don’t subscribe to $2000 PLC classes in general because most of them suck. They don’t teach fundamentals about troubleshooting, control loops, 2 wire vs 3 wire, etc. it’s like those computer classes where they tell you how to start Excel and save and load spreadsheets, and navigate around but don’t get into making one or troubleshooting one. Very few PLC classes do that. It’s not something that you can pack into a 1 or 2 week class. You’re way better off learning on your own.

I don’t exactly live in a metropolitan area either. In fact it’s very rural here. But we have the exact same stuff. You can buy a small brick style PLC (Toyo Click PLC) from Automation Direct for under $50. It’s not a toy, it’s the real deal and I use them a lot. Drives from those guys are also very inexpensive, get a couple sensors or scavenge some stuff and you’ve got a learning system. Play around. Make something with it. They have lots of examples in their documentation. 



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## Peewee0413

shockme123 said:


> There are no vocational colleges in my area which offer any courses in those subjects.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk


you sure have an excuse all your failures. I'm sure we've all been told this at a young age but maybe you haven't heard it. .....work hard and get what you want/deserve. .... you have another choice, which is go flip some burgers. Being an electrician is not easy, it's something you have to love and work hard at to get anywhere. You want a participation trophy then go play Tball.

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## Peewee0413

I lived in a small town but had to travel the US to work (9 months out of the year). Theres always a job out there, it just depends on how far your willing to go to get it. All I know is it builds quite a resume and your knowledge will increase.

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## gpop

Just buy a arduino starter kit for $35

Bitch moan and complain then read the instructions. Once you get use to reading and following the instructions on something you don't fully understand you will have a better grasp of what industrial techs do.


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## gpop

shockme123 said:


> $1750 for a PLC course. I mean I could probably do it, but I noticed that engineers only have access to the programming, while we just plug in wires. Without a job lined up I feel like I'm just throwing money away.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk


"while we just plug in wires"..........:vs_laugh:


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## Peewee0413

gpop said:


> Just buy a arduino starter kit for $35
> 
> Bitch moan and complain then read the instructions. Once you get use to reading and following the instructions on something you don't fully understand you will have a better grasp of what industrial techs do.


I love it when I start working on something I dont know anything about. The rush and fear of failure is part of what makes me successful in the repair.

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## shockme123

Peewee0413 said:


> you sure have an excuse all your failures. I'm sure we've all been told this at a young age but maybe you haven't heard it. .....work hard and get what you want/deserve. .... you have another choice, which is go flip some burgers. Being an electrician is not easy, it's something you have to love and work hard at to get anywhere. You want a participation trophy then go play Tball.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


From the US....there you go. I'm not from the US so if you were to take everything you said and base your experience on living in Canada instead then I would take you more seriously. There's a reason why our dollar is only worth 75 cents to yours. Canada doesn't give a **** about it's tradespeople. They want everyone to go flip burgers like you suggested. 

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## paulengr

We did our Trudea. Then we wised up.

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## 99cents

shockme123 said:


> From the US....there you go. I'm not from the US so if you were to take everything you said and base your experience on living in Canada instead then I would take you more seriously. There's a reason why our dollar is only worth 75 cents to yours. Canada doesn't give a **** about it's tradespeople. They want everyone to go flip burgers like you suggested.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk


Quit whining.

Happy Canada Day.


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## Southeast Power

shockme123 said:


> And blew it. This was a two week rotation at a lead smelter (combustible dust and old machinery, 60 year old substations) I come from a commercial background (Journeyman since March) so I guess I didn't know what I was getting into. It's too bad as I really liked the job (except for the dirt). I got the job through a placement agency, who I was told the super is only looking for engineering techs/engineers now (no surprise there) as he doesn't think the contracted electricians are good enough at servicing old equipment.
> 
> A lady at the placement agency is going to try to talk to the guy and see if he will give me a second chance, but I'm not that optimistic.
> 
> How do I improve when I was only given a week at most to prove myself?


I really think you dodged a bullet. You might have a bruised ego but, working in the conditions you described would be a big fat NO for me. Leave all of that environmental contamination for older people. It might take a decade or two to feel the impact on your body but, it's inevitable.


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## HackWork

Peewee0413 said:


> you sure have an excuse all your failures. I'm sure we've all been told this at a young age but maybe you haven't heard it. .....work hard and get what you want/deserve. .... you have another choice, which is go flip some burgers. Being an electrician is not easy, it's something you have to love and work hard at to get anywhere. You want a participation trophy then go play Tball.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk





shockme123 said:


> From the US....there you go. I'm not from the US so if you were to take everything you said and base your experience on living in Canada instead then I would take you more seriously. There's a reason why our dollar is only worth 75 cents to yours. Canada doesn't give a **** about it's tradespeople. They want everyone to go flip burgers like you suggested.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk





99cents said:


> Quit whining.
> 
> Happy Canada Day.


The truth is that this person has had dozens of issues. For years I have been telling him that this is the wrong career path. He can continue to blame everyone and everything else, but in the end he is the only one who is losing. 

He needs to make a giant change. Either in the entire way that he thinks and goes about doing things, or his career as a whole.


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## 99cents

HackWork said:


> The truth is that this person has had dozens of issues. For years I have been telling him that this is the wrong career path. He can continue to blame everyone and everything else, but in the end he is the only one who is losing.
> 
> He needs to make a giant change. Either in the entire way that he thinks and goes about doing things, or his career as a whole.


A career change won’t help because he will take those issues with him.

I have a hard time with people who play the victim role, particularly when you make a sincere attempt to help them out.


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## shockme123

HackWork said:


> The truth is that this person has had dozens of issues. For years I have been telling him that this is the wrong career path. He can continue to blame everyone and everything else, but in the end he is the only one who is losing.
> 
> 
> 
> He needs to make a giant change. Either in the entire way that he thinks and goes about doing things, or his career as a whole.


When have I ever listened to you? All you do is wait for your chance to come in a belittle others. 

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## glen1971

shockme123 said:


> From the US....there you go. I'm not from the US so if you were to take everything you said and base your experience on living in Canada instead then I would take you more seriously. There's a reason why our dollar is only worth 75 cents to yours. Canada doesn't give a **** about it's tradespeople. They want everyone to go flip burgers like you suggested.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk


I have flipped burgers.. But I was 14 and got out of that after high school.. I made the best of it though and it did buy me two cars when I was young.. 

I live in Canada and have travelled across 5 of our provinces for work. Some guys travel further than that! It all depends on how bad you want to work. Did I want to be away from home for 60 days working in -40C weather? Probably not. Did I enjoy being home every night for 9 months for one job? Damn rights. You take the good with the bad. You eat the lower wages for your first year or two, only to see the long term benefit of being a ticketted tradesman.


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## splatz

shockme123 said:


> From the US....there you go. I'm not from the US so if you were to take everything you said and base your experience on living in Canada instead then I would take you more seriously. There's a reason why our dollar is only worth 75 cents to yours. Canada doesn't give a **** about it's tradespeople. They want everyone to go flip burgers like you suggested.





?



?? 



You think the US values it's tradespeople more than Canada, and that's why the US$ is currently higher than the CN$ ? 



I don't know if this will make you feel better or worse but I can assure you the US doesn't place any special value on its tradespeople. 



Which I don't take personally, I don't think you should be all heartbroken over that, don't expect anyone to value anyone, except friends and family, and them if you're lucky. 



People just value what you can do for them. :thumbsup: 



THAT you can rely on! 



I'd suggest, is it really good to have baseless expectations, like expecting to be valued by the world? 



Relax. 



You lost a maintenance job after a couple weeks. This is like if you go out with a really pretty girl and she won't go out on a second date. Big deal. Ask one of her friends out. Ask them all out. Pick another girl off the girl tree. Maybe you're too fixated on looks anyway. 



If there was a million dollars under one of the rocks in your yard, 

would you turn over one or two rocks, then quit looking? 

No, you keep turning over rocks until you struck it rich.


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## pudge565

paulengr said:


> If I read between the lines they wanted someone that knows starters, drives, PLCs inside and out and can work without prints that are long gone anyway. Someone that can walk down the interlock chain in an old discrete relay starter to find the bad contact in a stop button long ago forgotten after 12 upgrades later. It takes a lot of experience to do that. I start guys out building and testing motor controls and PLC circuits in the shop where screwing it up is harmless. Tear down lots of broken stuff in the shop as a learning experience. It takes six months or more to get halfway decent at it. The trouble is there is no school that teaches industrial controls, no degree or certification for it. So it's hard to describe or find someone that can do it out of the box. You pretty much have to train them in house. The closest thing is an HVAC technician. I've seen engineers try to do it too. If they have training and experience as controls techs, they will do fine. But otherwise they're just as bad as commercial electricians with no controls experience. Companies see engineers from controls companies and assume that all electrical engineers can do the same thing.
> 
> The stuff you run into is like my day Friday. The job was at a feed mill. I started with they wanted a contactor replaced, part of a reversing set, based on what another contractor told them. The on site maintenance technician was at best a 2 year apprentice. I bought the mechanical interlock too because they are cheap and often the problem. Good thing as the contactor was fine, just the spring in the mechanical interlock broke so it locked out the contactor on one side. Once a I got it replaced (400 A hanging on flexible busbars, a one hour job) that's when the fun started. The guy before me was probably Kavanaugh. He's a local guy the feed mills call on but hes pretty clueless on controls. I saw the coil was disconnected but no telling what else he left. When they hit start the contactor pulled in and out three times. Then they got a start failure alarm and nothing ran but nothing else in one direction but not the other. Found a print from the manufacturer (was a customized soft start) and verified no site mods. The control wiring sends a forward or reverse run (two wire) command and there is run status feedback taken from the bypass contactor only. So whatever is going on is external to the starter. There were wire numbers so a couple cabinets later located the PLC. The output card was clearly firing three times but no inputs were changing states. No IO issues around the grinding mill like more disconnected or broken wiring. So this verified that it was something goofy the PLC was doing. It was unfortunately PLC troubleshooting time. So i had to break out the laptop and cordx and find the righf one and the right software license. Eventually got in and found a fan had to be running but only for one direction and the PLC checked that on a timer and some goofy lockout logic (3 strikes and you're out). It's the grossly overcomplicated type of code engineers typically write that often fails in unpredictable ways. Either way started the fan and everything worked as it should, 3 hours later. No prints except a controls schematic from a different controls company that did an upgrade and "took over" the controls. They tossed the original prints so only the new stuff had prints, not the older stuff I was working on. And this is on a 15 year old plant.
> 
> That's probably the expectation on top of wearing a full face respirator and all the usual industrial safety gear all day. It's a great place to learn from but it sounds like they're like the feed plant...They have no one to train you. I'd move on with this one but don't get discouraged. There are lots of places like that one that will train you but be prepared. They can give you time and opportunity but in reality you end up teaching yourself.
> 
> Usually in this situation the company knows what they want but will keep plugging away at failure after failure. They will pay outrageous money for a contractor like me to come in and do it. They will even offer me a job on the spot half the time. Then either management changes or they bite the bullet and take on someone and give them time to learn.
> 
> I've seen a tiny few companies do the practice of turning over temps when safety is an issue to avoid litigation. You can spot those a mile away when nobody is there longer than a month and nobody knows what is going on. In today's low unemployment environment that game doesn't work for more than 3 or 4 turns before they exhaust the pool.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk


There are schools that teach industrial controls. I had controls taught to me in my high school vo-tech class. I was really the only one in my class though because you had to want to learn it. I ALWAYS wanted to get into industrial, especially motor controls, since I started learning. There are programs out there, many many more colleges are starting up Mechatronics Engineering courses which teach controls, process control and instrumentation, drives, PLCs, and the mechanical side. These are geared for industrial maintenance jobs. Problem is they are not cheap by any means. I know, I started one, never finished... I would like to go back but I have crippled myself financially.



shockme123 said:


> There are no vocational colleges in my area which offer any courses in those subjects.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk


Look for Mechatronics Engineering courses that is what you would want. It is nor going to be cheap though.



shockme123 said:


> $1750 for a PLC course. I mean I could probably do it, but I noticed that engineers only have access to the programming, while we just plug in wires. Without a job lined up I feel like I'm just throwing money away.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk


EDUCATION in this field is NEVER throwing money away and if you really wanted this you would not be saying that. Sounds like you expect someone to teach you very difficult and intricate things about industrial without having to put in effort or put money out. If that is the case, you will never ever be successful nor wanted in this portion of the field.

Believe it or not, attitude is far more desirable than skills. Trust me, I know this first hand. I am one intelligent guy but I have a very very crappy personality, which I am working on, but it lead to me being fired 4 times and quitting probably as many jobs in less than 10 years. I look horrible on paper and there is absolutely no good way to explain the firings and leaving companies. I can explain them but it just makes me look even worse due to the nature of what I am pretty sure causes it.



99cents said:


> A career change won’t help because he will take those issues with him.
> 
> I have a hard time with people who play the victim role, particularly when you make a sincere attempt to help them out.


100% truth, see my above reply. It does not matter how smart you are or what skills you offer, a ****ty personality or attitude will hold you back and make you fail every single time. Hindsight is 20/20, people tried to warn me when I was still in high school. Of course to me there was nothing wrong, and it took the right person to get me to see that there is and start leading me to what that is. Though I pushed that person away from me as well and most likely that relationship is not repairable.


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## macmikeman

Helter Smelter, 
Helter Smelter, 
Helter Smelter, YAAAAAAAAA,,,,,,,,

Tell me , Tell me , Tell me your answer,
Well you maybe a lover but you ain't no Dancer. 

Helter Smelter, Helter Smelter, Helter Smelter, Helter Smelter


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## splatz

pudge565 said:


> Problem is they are not cheap by any means. I know, I started one, never finished... I would like to go back but I have crippled myself financially.



The local community college here has a mechanotronics associates degree that costs $8,000 over two years. I know because my one nephew is a good candidate with limited means. I think this will be enough to get him hired by someone like Johnson Controls, organized in, and making a LOT of money by the age of 25.


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## pudge565

splatz said:


> The local community college here has a mechanotronics associates degree that costs $8,000 over two years. I know because my one nephew is a good candidate with limited means. I think this will be enough to get him hired by someone like Johnson Controls, organized in, and making a LOT of money by the age of 25.


It certainly won't hurt but for 8,000 that sounds like nothing more than book work. The program that I started was an associates degree (A.A.S) and cost around 50k til all is said and done. However, they have hands on trainers that complement the book work so when you get in the field you know what you are actually looking at and know what to do.

Luckily for me, Penn State also offers a BS in Mechatronics, they were the first in the country to do so. But, once again, it is not cheap at all.

I am all for any education you can get, knowledge is the only thing that no one will ever be able to take away from you.


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## HackWork

shockme123 said:


> When have I ever listened to you? All you do is wait for your chance to come in a belittle others.


That's the problem, if you had listened to me all these years you wouldn't be in this predicament.

You see it as me "belittling" you. I see it as tough love. You are a ***** who whines too much and blames everyone else for your problems. You need to take charge of your life and make your own way.


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## shockme123

HackWork said:


> That's the problem, if you had listened to me all these years you wouldn't be in this predicament.
> 
> You see it as me "belittling" you. I see it as tough love. You are a ***** who whines too much and blames everyone else for your problems. You need to take charge of your life and make your own way.


And you're an old geezer that's been shocked way too many times. All you do is troll this site putting your input where it isn't wanted, and I sure don't want it.

If you don't have anything nice to say, then don't say anything at all.

Maybe I should start trolling you on this site.


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## pudge565

shockme123 said:


> And you're an old geezer that's been shocked way too many times. All you do is troll this site putting your input where it isn't wanted, and I sure don't want it.
> 
> If you don't have anything nice to say, then don't say anything at all.
> 
> Maybe I should start trolling you on this site.


Sometimes the truth hurts kid. If anyone knows that I sure as hell do. Good advice isn't always what you want to hear and most times definitely isn't what you want to hear. It is however, what you need to hear. Whether you listen and take the advice is totally up to you but at some point you have to stop bitching about how nothing is your fault and take personal responsibility to garner the outcome you want.


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## joebanana

stiffneck said:


> I spent a few weeks at the Lead Smelter in Herculaneum, Missouri for Shannahan Crane/Hoist company. Even back in 1993 we gave a blood sample day one and then one later on. Although I remember Cement and Copper plants being dustier.


I can totally relate. I recently came off a cement plant project in the high desert thinking that was the dad-gummed dirtiest facility I ever worked at, even worse than the refinery. Went right into a drive upgrade project at the old Kaiser steel mill, now Cal. Steel, and I asked for a layoff the second day. That joint has black dust 1/4" thick UNDER the I beams. Everything was coated with it, especially the cable trays. Some of the crew stripped down to their skivvies before they got into their trucks to go home. For good reason.


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## HackWork

shockme123 said:


> If you don't have anything nice to say, then don't say anything at all.


 This is the problem, you want to hear nice things instead of the truth. And that is why you are in the position that you are.

If you just opened your ears for once you would be in a much better place.


> Maybe I should start trolling you on this site.


That would be a welcome change from your constant crying about how the whole world is keeping you down.


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## shockme123

HackWork said:


> This is the problem, you want to hear nice things instead of the truth. And that is why you are in the position that you are.
> 
> If you just opened your ears for once you would be in a much better place.
> That would be a welcome change from your constant crying about how the whole world is keeping you down.


Maybe it's time for you to retire.


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## joebanana

macmikeman said:


> Helter Smelter,
> Helter Smelter,
> Helter Smelter, YAAAAAAAAA,,,,,,,,
> 
> Tell me , Tell me , Tell me your answer,
> Well you maybe a lover but you ain't no Dancer.
> 
> Helter Smelter, Helter Smelter, Helter Smelter, Helter Smelter


So.......that would explain those blisters on your fingers? Which you apparently got at the end of the third line.


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## pudge565

shockme123 said:


> Maybe it's time for you to retire.


I think it is time for you to start listening... You will get absolutely nowhere being stupid AND having the attitude you do.

I had a similar attitude for a very long time and I have been fired 4 times and left more jobs than that. I'm highly intelligent though and know electrical very well, which ironically, is one of the reasons I end up getting fired or leaving jobs... Personality really is very important. I don't know you but from just this thread I really do not see you succeeding, at anything really, if all you want to hear is good things and blame everyone and everything around you for your failures. I really do understand though because I seriously was the same way.


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## HackWork

shockme123 said:


> Maybe it's time for you to retire.


Why would I retire? That makes no sense. I am young and have a successful business. I did it by listening to the people with more experience, and by accepting responsibility when things went wrong, and learning from my mistakes.

What have you done, other than make dozens of threads over the years blaming everyone else for your problems and never willing to actually take the advice that everyone gives you?


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## 99cents

pudge565 said:


> There are schools that teach industrial controls. I had controls taught to me in my high school vo-tech class. I was really the only one in my class though because you had to want to learn it. I ALWAYS wanted to get into industrial, especially motor controls, since I started learning. There are programs out there, many many more colleges are starting up Mechatronics Engineering courses which teach controls, process control and instrumentation, drives, PLCs, and the mechanical side. These are geared for industrial maintenance jobs. Problem is they are not cheap by any means. I know, I started one, never finished... I would like to go back but I have crippled myself financially.
> 
> 
> 
> Look for Mechatronics Engineering courses that is what you would want. It is nor going to be cheap though.
> 
> 
> 
> EDUCATION in this field is NEVER throwing money away and if you really wanted this you would not be saying that. Sounds like you expect someone to teach you very difficult and intricate things about industrial without having to put in effort or put money out. If that is the case, you will never ever be successful nor wanted in this portion of the field.
> 
> Believe it or not, attitude is far more desirable than skills. Trust me, I know this first hand. I am one intelligent guy but I have a very very crappy personality, which I am working on, but it lead to me being fired 4 times and quitting probably as many jobs in less than 10 years. I look horrible on paper and there is absolutely no good way to explain the firings and leaving companies. I can explain them but it just makes me look even worse due to the nature of what I am pretty sure causes it.
> 
> 
> 
> 100% truth, see my above reply. It does not matter how smart you are or what skills you offer, a ****ty personality or attitude will hold you back and make you fail every single time. Hindsight is 20/20, people tried to warn me when I was still in high school. Of course to me there was nothing wrong, and it took the right person to get me to see that there is and start leading me to what that is. Though I pushed that person away from me as well and most likely that relationship is not repairable.


I already told him where to go for online courses with a good, legitimate college. He said he would look into education after he lands the job. Where I come from, that’s backwards. Would I want brain surgery from a guy who goes to university after he cuts my skull open?


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## tjb

Hack said he loves him. I think that’s so sweet!


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## joebanana

splatz said:


> The local community college here has a mechanotronics associates degree that costs $8,000 over two years. I know because my one nephew is a good candidate with limited means. I think this will be enough to get him hired by someone like Johnson Controls, organized in, and making a LOT of money by the age of 25.


 Saw JC and had to chime in. That's not the place to "make a lot of money". Although, some of the upper management does make bank, trying to get a pay raise out of them bastads is another realm.
I worked for JC in their network integration services division for a couple of years never got a raise. I was their sole bucket truck operator, I didn't even have a swamper. And we did a lot of aerial fiber work. I ran into a guy I worked with at Transpac years earlier (long story) on a project his company was competing with JC for. He offers me $5 /hr. more than JC was paying me without even asking me what I was getting. So I go to the proj. super and tell him if JC will just match the $5, I'll stay. I didn't see him for the rest of the day. Next day he drags me in the trailer and begs me to settle for $3/hr. more. The poor guy was almost in tears, asking me where he was going to get another bucket swinger, as if I knew. Then goes into a whole song and dance about how he "went to the top", and fought for the full 5, but alas................ I told him he has 2 weeks to work on it. He spent those 2 weeks working on me. Maybe the controls division, or the battery divisions are different, but I doubt it.


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## HackWork

tjb said:


> Hack said he loves him. I think that’s so sweet!


Yup. I love everyone. At least most people. 

If you are a bum, I will tell you that you are a bum. Not because I want to hurt your feels, but because I want you to do better. And many times you need a kick in the ass more than a shoulder to piss and moan on. 

I am using the generic "you", of course. Not aimed at you, tjb.


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## CoolWill

shockme123 said:


> And you're an old geezer that's been shocked way too many times. All you do is troll this site putting your input where it isn't wanted, and I sure don't want it.
> 
> If you don't have anything nice to say, then don't say anything at all.
> 
> Maybe I should start trolling you on this site.


Don't sweat it young stud. Hack is just mad because you're more handsome than he is.


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## HackWork

CoolWill said:


> Don't sweat it young stud. Hack is just mad because you're more handsome than he is.


:vs_sad:


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## tjb

HackWork said:


> I am using the generic "you", of course. Not aimed at you, tjb.




Oh, I know. I wasn’t confused that it’s not me you love. No worries!


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## pudge565

I'm also curious what "combustible dusts" exist at a lead smelter. Can you please shed some insight into that for me?


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## micromind

paulengr said:


> A lot of engineers should not have access to PLCs. Same with a lot of electricians.
> 
> The problem with engineers is that they overthink things. And they assume that they know how to program controls when they don’t. And they have difficulty understanding the world outside of a laptop. Case in point: Greg Q. worked on the code for a ductile iron for their melt shop for 2 years and never got anything working right past manual controls. It took me about 2 weeks using a program that was 80% smaller and about 95% faster at basically everything it did to the point where it waited on people instead of the other way around. Later he “upgraded” a cement casting machine so that it cut production to 25% of normal. Took me about 4 hours to figure out what he did and fix it. He didn’t get the idea that if we are using cement as fast as we mix it, we need to mix up a batch while we are using one. And weighing up sand and cement and heating up water for the next batch.
> 
> The problem with electricians on PLCs is different. They lose their minds as electricians. Once they have a laptop they forget all their other skills and the first thing they do with troubleshooting is start playing around in the PLC. They start adding timers and crazy input denouncing code instead of inspecting a limit switch and replacing it because it is almost destroyed, or attempting to code around a missing one with a timer instead of replacing one that is there for safety purposes. Or they just force everything until it works, especially safeties. They don’t bother talking to the operator or looking at the equipment or doing basic electrical checks first so they waste all their efforts fixing what isn’t broke (the PLC).
> 
> Without access they don’t have a laptop so instead they troubleshoot using the shotgun approach (shoot and see if it hits something) then call an engineer because even though nobody touched the PLC in 5 years something must have mysteriously changed in the program all on its own.
> 
> I don’t subscribe to $2000 PLC classes in general because most of them suck. They don’t teach fundamentals about troubleshooting, control loops, 2 wire vs 3 wire, etc. it’s like those computer classes where they tell you how to start Excel and save and load spreadsheets, and navigate around but don’t get into making one or troubleshooting one. Very few PLC classes do that. It’s not something that you can pack into a 1 or 2 week class. You’re way better off learning on your own.
> 
> I don’t exactly live in a metropolitan area either. In fact it’s very rural here. But we have the exact same stuff. You can buy a small brick style PLC (Toyo Click PLC) from Automation Direct for under $50. It’s not a toy, it’s the real deal and I use them a lot. Drives from those guys are also very inexpensive, get a couple sensors or scavenge some stuff and you’ve got a learning system. Play around. Make something with it. They have lots of examples in their documentation.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Completely and totally agree!


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## splatz

joebanana said:


> Saw JC and had to chime in. That's not the place to "make a lot of money". Although, some of the upper management does make bank, trying to get a pay raise out of them bastads is another realm.


I think things have really changed there. The guys in this area are making $10 $11 over scale, with at least 8 hours of overtime a week - doing really well, top top pay around here.


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## joebanana

splatz said:


> I think things have really changed there. The guys in this area are making $10 $11 over scale, with at least 8 hours of overtime a week - doing really well, top top pay around here.


Yeah, they were going through growing pangs around then, (late 80's) they just recently acquired the networking division in an attempt to expand their presence in the field of "controlling your world". I heard a rumor that not long after my departure they sold the division. I did notice that the "higher ups" in management all drove Mercedes.


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## pudge565

splatz said:


> I think things have really changed there. The guys in this area are making $10 $11 over scale, with at least 8 hours of overtime a week - doing really well, top top pay around here.


Even if they do pay well, I have seen the work they do and it is definitely not pretty and sometimes doesn't even work!


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