# Rate my Panel- Apprentice <6 MO experience



## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

why the loop-de-doos in the feeders?


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Keep up the good work- looks very nice. Why is there a ground bar outside the panel with nothing attached? 

Also is the #4 strandard for the electrode conductors. Hard to tell but it looks like #6


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## paul d. (Jul 13, 2008)

looks o.k. to me . i can live with the loop-de-loops. you got noalox under them lugs??????? hard to see it. yes i know you dont have to gob that stuff all over the panel.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

I agree, looks great.

I used to do those loops, but stopped years ago.

All I use in my immediate area for GECs is #6. There are some localities around me that do require #4.
Dennis, are you required to use #4.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Speedy Petey said:


> I agree, looks great.
> 
> I used to do those loops, but stopped years ago.
> 
> ...



Based on 250.66 you must use #4 unless it is to the ground rod. I was thinking water pipes


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

mattsilkwood said:


> why the loop-de-doos in the feeders?


technically those aren't feeders as they aren't supplied by a breaker.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

steelersman said:


> technically those aren't feeders as they aren't supplied by a breaker.


Technically you capitalize the first letter of the first word in a sentence. :laughing:


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Technically you capitalize the first letter of the first word in a sentence. :laughing:


True. Technically, you're gay!  But I love you anyway!


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## I_get_shocked (Apr 6, 2009)

Loops are in consideration of the next person in the panel. Ever work on a panel with the feeder too short? It allows for the main to be made up again if it burns up. I recycled the old ground bus to terminate catv/phone utilities. Yes noalox was used and gec is #6


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

I_get_shocked said:


> Loops are in consideration of the next person in the panel. Ever work on a panel with the feeder too short? It allows for the main to be made up again if it burns up. I recycled the old ground bus to terminate catv/phone utilities. Yes noalox was used and gec is #6


Is the #6 going to a water pipe?


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## I_get_shocked (Apr 6, 2009)

Good catch guys yes all gec are #6 ill run #4 to the water main before inspection (service is existing but i will bring to code)


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

Your work looks really good.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

What is the ground bar mounted outside of the panel on the wall? Is it for intersystem bonding?


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## Fredman (Dec 2, 2008)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Why is there a ground bar outside the panel with nothing attached?


Good question.


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## wirenut1110 (Feb 12, 2008)

I_get_shocked said:


> I recycled the old ground bus to terminate catv/phone utilities.


This is what the ground bar is for.:thumbsup:


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Based on 250.66 you must use #4 unless it is to the ground rod. I was thinking water pipes


Ah, I see. Good point.


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## paul d. (Jul 13, 2008)

wirenut1110 said:


> This is what the ground bar is for.:thumbsup:


 dont the ground bar have to be mounted on isolator type stand-off??? we normally put ground bars on stand-offs for tel/data boards in comm work.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

I_get_shocked said:


> Good catch guys yes all gec are #6 ill run #4 to the water main before inspection (service is existing but i will bring to code)


So did you do this job under your boss?


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

wirenut1110 said:


> This is what the ground bar is for.:thumbsup:


And what good does it do if there is no wire from the panelboard attached to it?


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## wirenut1110 (Feb 12, 2008)

paul d. said:


> dont the ground bar have to be mounted on isolator type stand-off??? we normally put ground bars on stand-offs for tel/data boards in comm work.


I'm not sure what his plan is. He may have just had that temporarily hanging there, or just using the wood for the insulator.


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## I_get_shocked (Apr 6, 2009)

I split bolted from the #6 and ran it to the ground bar. I was under the impression you couldnt bring the catv ground into the panel hence the external ground bar seperated from line voltage. Yes this was under supervision of the master electrician i work for.


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

I_get_shocked said:


> Yes this was under supervision of the master electrician i work for.


 
Is his name Bob Badger or I Wire? :laughing:


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## I_get_shocked (Apr 6, 2009)

No i dont know those guys.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

I would put a little more tape on the white wire going to breaker #11.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

Speedy Petey said:


> So did you do this job under your boss?


Yes... His Dad:laughing:


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## I_get_shocked (Apr 6, 2009)

My dads a mechanic try again


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

So was this a side job or your day work?


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

I_get_shocked said:


> My dads a mechanic try again


You said in your first post that this was at your parents' house. Your Dad was standing there the whole time breathing down your neck. Admit it...


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## I_get_shocked (Apr 6, 2009)

haha my dad wouldnt know what hes looking at. He didnt bother me in the least :thumbsup::laughing:


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## sparky970 (Mar 19, 2008)

Honestly, there is a lot of copper showing on the breakers, you need to trim a little less insulation.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

steelersman said:


> Is his name Bob Badger or I Wire? :laughing:





I_get_shocked said:


> No i dont know those guys.


 You will.:whistling2:


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

You missed a bushing on the SE connector!!!!! You better fix that,,,,,could be a very loud boom in your parents house!!!!!!!


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

You're exceeding the bending radius of the grounded conductor and phase conductors,,,,,,,,,why the looptiloos?


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> You missed a bushing on the SE connector!!!!! You better fix that....


He doesn't need to fix what is already code compliant per NEC. No need for a bushing.


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## George Stolz (Jan 22, 2009)

Agreed.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

I didn't say he had to per NEC,,,,I just said he should put a bushing on,,,,I never do a service without them,,,,,,,just like there's no card article that MAKES you put the little red bushing in the end of MC cable,,,,but I do it anyway!


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Besides,,,,he still exceeded the bending radius and it would not pass in VA


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

Well what should he use as his guide then if it's not the NEC? Should he use the Electrician's Guide To Overkill Installations authored by you? I think not. Also, It would totally fly in VA. What county would it not fly in?


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## George Stolz (Jan 22, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Besides,,,,he still exceeded the bending radius and it would not pass in VA


Bend radius of what?


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## Noe (Apr 7, 2009)

Looks good. Might want to address the white wire - does need to be covered for use as hot.
Also as a matter of practice (not code) we generally try to keep Grounded conductors on one bar and grounding conductors on the other. And is that a factory jumper on two bars or did you make that?


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

thats the factory bond bar...pretty common on siemens panels


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

The bushing would pass,,,,,,,,,but not the bending radius. I've seen guys get turned down for coming into the side of a meter base(even though there's knockouts there),,,,but get turned down for bending radius.


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## George Stolz (Jan 22, 2009)

I'll type slower - the bend radius of what?


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

I think he means the radius of the service entrance conductors


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

steelersman said:


> I think he means the radius of the service entrance conductors


Why would that be a problem?


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

I don't know much about the NEC for that, but it does address the bending radius of conductors in the code doesn't it?


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

not sure about se....but the maximum bend of nm is 5 times the diameter of the cable....is this what you are referring to?


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

steelersman said:


> I don't know much about the NEC for that, but it does address the bending radius of conductors in the code doesn't it?


NEC doesn’t cover bending conductors caring 120 volts. Maybe I’m been missing something with a listing. I don’t like bending them too tight but I don’t have a reference to say you can’t make the silly loops.


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

NolaTigaBait said:


> not sure about se....but the maximum bend of nm is 5 times the diameter of the cable....is this what you are referring to?


I just looked up SE and it does say “the radius of the curve of the inner edge of any bend, during or after installation, shall not be less than five times the diameter of the cable”
Some of you residential guys will have to clarify this. Once it is stripped back are the wires still considered a cable and subject to the above paragraph? Then can you use the diameter of the wires a starting point? The only SE cable I work with is temporary for office and brake trailers.:001_huh:


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

I'm not sure, but i would assume that the same radius would apply.


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## mikeg_05 (Jan 1, 2009)

Looks good man:thumbsup: Id organize the breakers a little bit better, keep 120's together 115's, and so on. What are the 2 pole 15's for? Small heat circuits?


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## I_get_shocked (Apr 6, 2009)

Thanks for the feedback. The 2 pole 15s are MWBC 

There was not too much slack to I didnt have much choice of what went where

Heres another panel I did loops on. I only refed this panel - all branch wiring was existing


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## partimer31 (Jun 9, 2009)

To: I Get Schocked,j nice job, but are your NM-B connectors U.L. Listed for two conductors?

Also its looks as there may be a large wire lug of the left side, if so why didn't you use it for your electrode grounding wiring?

Keep up the Good Work.


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## I_get_shocked (Apr 6, 2009)

partimer31 said:


> To: I Get Schocked,j nice job, but are your NM-B connectors U.L. Listed for two conductors?
> 
> Also its looks as there may be a large wire lug of the left side, if so why didn't you use it for your electrode grounding wiring?
> 
> Keep up the Good Work.



yes they are listed for 2 conductors
I didnt use the large lug because the EGC was only #6 and the terminals I used were rated for #6. Thanks for the feedback


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## Safety-Guy (Jan 22, 2007)

On the loops, Some do Some don't. My preference is not. Coils in electricity cause heat, and heat causes deterioration of insulation. You stated the reason was 


I_get_shocked said:


> It allows for the main to be made up again if it burns up.


 If the main burns up then there was a loose connection, and since everything electrical runs on smoke and loose connections allow the smoke to escape, then you would want to replace the feeds anyway as all their smoke would be gone.


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## partimer31 (Jun 9, 2009)

To; Safetly-Guy

I seen some MFG catalogs that picture in there catalog, L1 and L2 coil going into
the panel lugs. Breaker or Main Lug Panels.

I believe its a lot easier to will the panel that way, than straight in. Do you know
of any NEC code rule that doesn't allow this.

I think "I get shock", would find something, like say, 4/0 difficuit to coil. From 
what I saw in his picture I think he did an excellence job.

The only thing I what have added to this job, would had been a plastic bushing on
the SE-U connector that attach to the electrical panel. Why, its a small price to
pay and some state inspectors in my State want it there. Any opening 1" or larger.


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## Safety-Guy (Jan 22, 2007)

Partimer,
I was just stating my PREFERENCE, not stating any code. 

But on a serious note, I never trust any picture I see from manufacturers, they try to make the pictures look "pretty" to sell more product, that is just the nature of their business.


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## partimer31 (Jun 9, 2009)

Safety-Guy

Thanks for your reply and stating your opinion. I look forward to reading your thoughts on any future Threads posted on this site.

/s/ partimer31

Quote: "there are no bad opinions, just bad facts"


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