# Non-permitted work, advice needed



## nhill_68 (Sep 26, 2016)

Hi there, long time lurker here. Residential isn't my area, and I need advice from some working resi electricians.

Short story: I bought a house with a small 125 amp FP panel and a bit of aluminum wiring. Sellers agreed to put in a new panel and make the wiring safe. The sellers took the bids and wrote the check, but the money came out of my pocket as part of the sale. They hired a licensed electrician whose bid included a "service upgrade", new panel, ground and bond, fix the aluminum, and eight GFCI receptacles. The service upgrade was likely to be easy, because the service-entrance conductors and the meter base are 200 A.

Months later, I move in, and first thing I do is check out the electrical. He did the Denver Panel-Shuffle where we gut the existing panel, turn it into a j-box full of splices, and feed it from a new panel next to it. The new panel is a cheap 24-circuit, no bigger than before, still almost full, with only two open slots. He used purple ideals in the j-box where needed. His splices are super ugly and the can is filthy inside, but probably not a violation. He did drive a grounding rod (there was none before), and the bonding is proper. 

However, he did NOT do any kind of "service upgrade"; panel and service conductors are still 125 A. He did not address any of the dozen aluminum-to-copper splices in the house. And he evidently didn't pull a permit, which means he wired that panel hot.

He charged $2,500 for the work. He charged over $1,200 just for material, and there's less than $300 of material actually used, so I'm wondering where the other thousand bucks went.

I called him up and asked him to clarify the material cost, and politely requested that he send me the permit number, giving him the benefit of doubt. He got real defensive, said he'd call back. That was last week.

Before I call him again for an uncomfortable conversation, I want to check with folks here to make sure I'm not off-base. Is it reasonable to expect him to come back and do the service upgrade that I payed for? Would it be jerky of me to file a complaint with the electrical board for the unpermitted work? 

Thanks in advance!


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Do you even have a leg to stand on? What did the contracts you signed (house papers) say about it? Wouldn't it be between him and the previous owner aka his client? Even if he didn't pull a permit if it passes I doubt he gets into much trouble....


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

This is something that should have been checked before the closing of the house.

His contract was with the previous homeowner, your issue should be with them. But now it's too late. 

Now it's a game of he said she said and the responsible part is long gone.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

HackWork said:


> This is something that should have been checked before the closing of the house.
> 
> His contract was with the previous homeowner, your issue should be with them. But now it's too late.
> 
> Now it's a game of he said she said and the responsible part is long gone.


Yeah! See, that's exactly my thoughts. Great minds think alike!


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

It sounds like a day in court is in the cards.



Welcome aboard BTW! Poco linemen?


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## Signal1 (Feb 10, 2016)

Do you have this agreement in writing? The prior homeowners likely had no idea what they were talking about when they hired this electrician. Nor did they care, after all they had no problem living in that house with an old panel and unsafe wiring now did they?

The electrician may have just done what he was told, like as little as possible and we don't need no permit either. It happens.

Unfortunately, your leverage was the closing, that would be on the attorney that handled the closing to make sure all agreements have been met. If you have this in a contract you may have a shot but it may require a lawsuit. The sale is over.

As far as the electrical board, I'm not sure how they are in your area, but if there are no dangerous violations, that you know he did, you probably won't get much, that ship has sailed too. Failure to repair something is not in violation as long as he never touched it. Again contractual only. Not saying it's not worth a try, but.........

Sorry to say this but at this point you may save money and aggravation getting your own electrician, and getting it done right yourself.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

The funds spent came out of the seller's pocket not yours.

You HAD to catch such issues while the deal was in escrow. Period.

When title passed, it passed AS IS, WHERE IS.

The shoddy EC has no contractual obligation with you.

I'd doubt that you have standing to even begin legal proceedings.


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## nhill_68 (Sep 26, 2016)

MechanicalDVR, thanks. I did work for PSCo a long long time ago. Now I work in data centers, mostly telecom, but I still do some grounding and power backup.

Thanks everyone for the input. Indeed, I have no legal leverage, but I'm not going to sue the guy. I just want to talk him into giving me what I paid for. His bid specified a service upgrade, and he billed accordingly. I don't mind some cut corners here and there. I do mind being ripped off.

The only leverage I have is the threat of reporting his unpermitted work. I suppose my only pertinent question is, for you fellows, would that threat be sufficient motivation to come back and redo a panel job?


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

If in California, the contractor really doesn't want to get stung for undermined work. You may have more leverage than you think... What is it that you want from him?


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## Signal1 (Feb 10, 2016)

> he only leverage I have is the threat of reporting his unpermitted work. I suppose my only pertinent question is, for you fellows, would that threat be sufficient motivation to come back and redo a panel job?


Are you sure he didn't get a permit? Did you go to your AHJ and have the records checked to verify this?
Maybe he just didn't want to talk to you because he doesn't consider you his customer. He did the job for the prior owner.

Do you have a copy of this bid? The invoice?

If you indeed have this info in hand you maybe could call the guy up and say I know what you agreed to, what you got paid, and you have no permit, maybe he'll be willing to work things out with you. Hard to say. All you can really do is give it a shot.
I wish you luck on this but I don't see much of a threat, after all he may have gotten a permit that has another homeowner's name on it.

Like I said prior, don't know your AHJ but I know most aren't interested in people's business. At most they'll probably just chase him around for the fee anyways.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Unpermitted work can be a problem when finishing a basement or something like that. That's when they can make you open things up if they want to mess with you. 

When it comes to changing a panel, the worst that happens is they make you pull a permit now and get it inspected. So you would be threatening the contractor with a $60 permit charge and then you would be stuck having to be home to let the inspector in.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

nhill_68 said:


> MechanicalDVR, thanks. I did work for PSCo a long long time ago. Now I work in data centers, mostly telecom, but I still do some grounding and power backup.
> 
> Thanks everyone for the input. Indeed, I have no legal leverage, but I'm not going to sue the guy. I just want to talk him into giving me what I paid for. His bid specified a service upgrade, and he billed accordingly. I don't mind some cut corners here and there. I do mind being ripped off.
> 
> The only leverage I have is the threat of reporting his unpermitted work. I suppose my only pertinent question is, for you fellows, would that threat be sufficient motivation to come back and redo a panel job?


If you or someone threatened me with something like that, I'd block your number.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

HackWork said:


> This is something that should have been checked before the closing of the house.
> 
> His contract was with the previous homeowner, your issue should be with them. But now it's too late.
> 
> Now it's a game of he said she said and the responsible part is long gone.


I agree with all of the above except it is too late. If your sales agreement specified that the work was to be done as part, and it was not done as specified, you could go after the seller. 

If you open up the inspection issue, I'd think there's an excellent chance that could wind up backfiring on you if there are issues that were not in the original list of corrections, which is very possible. 

Is there enough work to be done that it's worth the trouble? I'd review your sales agreement with your lawyer and have him write a letter to the seller, possibly copy the electrician, and see if they will work it out between themselves to do what they were supposed to do, and failing that, you could sue the seller. 

It's a good lesson though, a good realtor or lawyer working on your behalf would have made sure that the corrections were inspected and accepted by the buyer before the transaction. Most of them just want to hustle the transaction through as fast as possible, get their chunk, and move on to the next poor sucker.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

splatz said:


> I agree with all of the above except it is too late. If your sales agreement specified that the work was to be done as part, and it was not done as specified, you could go after the seller.


 I agree that he can, but what will be accomplished? It will end up being a lot of time wasted even if he wins in court, he could spend much less time just finishing the service himself. 


> It's a good lesson though, a good realtor or lawyer working on your behalf would have made sure that the corrections were inspected and accepted by the buyer before the transaction. Most of them just want to hustle the transaction through as fast as possible, get their chunk, and move on to the next poor sucker.


^This is the truth^

They should have made sure there was an inspection before the sale of the house. 

That is what often happens, I get a call because the panel doesn't have an inspection sticker on it and the buyer wants to make sure that it is done right so I go in, pull a permit and check it out, then have it inspected (very profitable :thumbsup.


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## nhill_68 (Sep 26, 2016)

I called DORA (the AHJ here), confirmed there is no permit.

I agree, an inspection now may turn up some other stuff that I'll then have to fix, but it doesn't matter, since I have to put in another new panel to accommodate more circuits (and the service upgrade). So I'll be getting a permit and inspections soon anyway.

Due dilligence definitely suffered in this deal. The sellers and their agent are good folks, and I don't want to cause them trouble. The whole deal was just a bit chaotic and rushed. I'm guessing the electrician thought he'd take advantage of that to make an extra easy grand. 

Not worth going to court, but maybe worth mention of a BBB/AHJ report. If he hasn't already blocked my number  

Thanks all of you for the input, I really appreciate it.


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## Rock knocker (Mar 8, 2016)

I think you could have a course of legal action againt the sellers


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## nhill_68 (Sep 26, 2016)

I tend to agree, against their agent in particular. But he did good by us in other ways and I don't want to cause him trouble. I'm to going to tell him (and my realtor as well) that he let himself get bait'n'switched by a contractor. But I don't want more of the sellers' money. I just want to be able to add a few more circuits.

You know what bothers me the most? The contractor didn't even give me a main breaker panel. It's a bargain-basement MLO, so the service conductors are backfed, taking up the slots that I could otherwise have used to feed a subpanel. I'd have been better off with the old FP panel. I think the guy just took the cheapest box in his inventory and marked it up $1000.

I'm just whining now; I'll stop


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Why would you want this hack back to do more hack work? 

A "service upgrade" could simply mean replacing a bad lug unless the scope of work is clarified beforehand.

As far as I'm concerned, the seller is off the hook. He hired a contractor to do the work and it was done. You will spend more money on lawyers and court costs than it will cost to have a legitimate contractor make things right. 

A $2500.00 bid to for a service and panel change, plus to correct some aluminum wiring issues, tells me right away that this guy is Splash n Dash Electric. It's way too cheap.


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

*BBB is useless*

Unless he is a member of the BBB going to them is useless, I've done it.
Now if he has a web site, a mention of a very bed review on every review site might get him to listen. 

It's easy to leave a bad review, hard for him to get rid of.
Good luck


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

If the agreement between parties at closing was in writing as a service upgrade, it doesn't sound like you received that. I just did a panel replacement for a customer whose realtor is an associate of mine. I quoted it as such, priced it as such and it was permitted and inspected. Unless its something really insignificant, maybe a smoke detector replacement or a gfci, I get a permit and get it inspected. Sounds to me like a call to your lawyer might produce something. The whole process is a pain and while the home inspector found a relevant item in the damaged buss, he missed non functional and out of date smokes. Found the almighty more than one wire under the breaker terminal...


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

nhill_68 said:


> I tend to agree, against their agent in particular. But he did good by us in other ways and I don't want to cause him trouble. I'm to going to tell him (and my realtor as well) that he let himself get bait'n'switched by a contractor. But I don't want more of the sellers' money. I just want to be able to add a few more circuits.
> 
> You know what bothers me the most? The contractor didn't even give me a main breaker panel. It's a bargain-basement MLO, so the service conductors are backfed, taking up the slots that I could otherwise have used to feed a subpanel. I'd have been better off with the old FP panel. I think the guy just took the cheapest box in his inventory and marked it up $1000.
> 
> I'm just whining now; I'll stop


Dude, whine away, get it out!


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

I'm not sure if "service upgrade" means anything in particular

I might say "upgrade to 200 amp," but evidently EC was not specific


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I'd have to see what was written before I totally throw someone under the bus. Around here a service upgrade is that, though, true, it wasn't specified to what size. A panel or service replacement of equal size would be a better description of what it sounds like you received.


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## nhill_68 (Sep 26, 2016)

readydave8 and nrp3, you're correct, amperage may not have been conveyed in writing. The bid and invoice literally say, "service upgrade, replace panel, ground and bond to code, tail out aluminum, replace 8 receps w/ GFCI". Notice how "service upgrade" and "replace panel" are separate items. 

Lack of dilligence throughout is on me, no doubt, but I have little doubt the electrician knew what was ordered. Around here (suburban front range CO) heavy-ups are *always* 200 A if laterals/drops and meter bases support it, which mine do. The phrase "service upgrade" is Xcel's official terminology, and I know no other electricians who use it in any other way. 

I know what this guy did. I know the game with home sale inspection corrections, and I normally don't get too upset about a few cut corners and fatty markups, but walking in and finding a completely full backfed hundred-dollar MLO, and then finding out I paid almost a grand for it... that's a bit too far even for me.

I'll poke the guy once more and see if he gives. 

BTW Telsa, it actually was my money that paid the work. Correction of this item was originally a $2500 concession from the sellers, which I later agreed to let them keep if they would handle it themselves. So they told Mr. Sparks4Less they had $2500 to spend on some kind of "service upgrade" and he came up with a $2500 bid. Convenient! And if the buyer had been Joe Blow, he could get away with pocketing an extra grand without doing the work.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

The contract was still between the sellers and the EC. The EC shouldn't be discussing it with you at all.


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## Rock knocker (Mar 8, 2016)

HackWork said:


> The contract was still between the sellers and the EC. The EC shouldn't be discussing it with you at all.


Yes, you sue (or lean on) the seller, and they seek redress from their EC


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Rock knocker said:


> Yes, you sue (or lean on) the seller, and they seek redress from their EC


And the OP already said that he likes the seller and doesn't want to mess with them.

I have been in situations like this myself. I have done work for the sellers of a house, they tell me to just clean up little stuff, they want it done as cheap as possible. Then when the buyers come in and find that things weren't completely replace they get mad and call me. My reply is always the same, "My contract with any other client is confidential".


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## Rock knocker (Mar 8, 2016)

HackWork said:


> And the OP already said that he likes the seller and doesn't want to mess with them.
> 
> I have been in situations like this myself. I have done work for the sellers of a house, they tell me to just clean up little stuff, they want it done as cheap as possible. Then when the buyers come in and find that things weren't completely replace they get mad and call me. My reply is always the same, "My contract with any other client is confidential".


Then there is no where to go.


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

nhill_68 said:


> I tend to agree, against their agent in particular. But he did good by us in other ways and I don't want to cause him trouble. I'm to going to tell him (and my realtor as well) that he let himself get bait'n'switched by a contractor. But I don't want more of the sellers' money. I just want to be able to add a few more circuits.
> 
> You know what bothers me the most? The contractor didn't even give me a main breaker panel. It's a bargain-basement MLO, so the service conductors are backfed, taking up the slots that I could otherwise have used to feed a subpanel. I'd have been better off with the old FP panel. I think the guy just took the cheapest box in his inventory and marked it up $1000.
> 
> I'm just whining now; I'll stop




You sir sound like a completely reasonable and rational human being. Thank you. 

I would be pissed about that hack job too and would make sure to shît talk his work every chance I got. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mikewillnot (Apr 2, 2013)

Kiss that money goodbye and start over. 
That's what happens when the work is left up to the seller.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

HackWork said:


> And the OP already said that he likes the seller and doesn't want to mess with them.
> 
> I have been in situations like this myself. I have done work for the sellers of a house, they tell me to just clean up little stuff, they want it done as cheap as possible. Then when the buyers come in and find that things weren't completely replace they get mad and call me. My reply is always the same, "My contract with any other client is confidential".


That's the thing here, from what I read the OP isn't really sure what went on between the electrician and the seller.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

a new panel is better than an old panel, so that contractor may very well sell that as a service upgrade. Your opinion differs. I don't think that "bait and switch" is very accurate to describe what happened.

It is easy, when headed toward closing, to allow items of work to be rushed through.

The lesson here, is twofold:

1) Never allow an item, especially one that you consider important enough to want to inspect, and have your input and approval, to be handled _in its entirety_ by others. You will always be disappointed. Did you really expect that a realtor, or the seller, was going to have this installed properly, and to your satisfaction ? That would never happen, in any reality. You also failed to even have any contractual authority in the matter (you could have at least negotiated to approve the contract for the install, in which case you could have rejected the slam and go unspecified upgrade)

2) In the course of a house sale, it is always in your interest to leverage items in your favor. Any items that you want done can be itemized, and monies taken off the price of the sale. This allows you to potentially get a cheaper price/better service for them, and also be done at your leisure and completely under your control, at a later time when you have the time to devote your complete attention to the item. Unless the items are HUD modifications, or items that have to be completed for occupancy, there is never any good reason to let the items be completed by the seller or realtor, who are just trying to slam stuff together and get out of dodge.

not trying to bash you, just wanted to make the points clear - it is easy to let realtors rush you to closing, and before you close you have some control. After closing, it is all spilled milk.

good luck with the new property


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## Greg Sparkovich (Sep 15, 2007)

I live in terror of a bad yelp review (albeit in a good way).
There is no doubt in my mind that having (only) 5-star reviews on Yelp has been the biggest single boost to my business ever.

I imagine getting a few 1-star reviews would be equally devastating?

PS:
I cannot believe the level of **** work you describe. I have used a panel as a Jbox ...when there was no way to bring the old wires into the new panel. I'm not even sure he saved labor ...is it really more work to remove a panel than it is to put up a new mounting (Z-bars or Board) and bring all those wires into both panels instead of removing and replacing???


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## nhill_68 (Sep 26, 2016)

Thanks for the talk everyone, I appreciate it. The guy stopped answering my calls, so I just dropped it.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

I would at least see if I could get a permit verification from the AHJ. If none was obtained, I would turn it in. Maybe request an inspection from the AHJ.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Greg Sparkovich said:


> I live in terror of a bad yelp review (albeit in a good way).
> There is no doubt in my mind that having (only) 5-star reviews on Yelp has been the biggest single boost to my business ever.
> 
> I imagine getting a few 1-star reviews would be equally devastating?


So 'Yelp', don't 'ET' .....

~CS~


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

nhill_68 said:


> I tend to agree, against their agent in particular. But he did good by us in other ways and I don't want to cause him trouble. I'm to going to tell him (and my realtor as well) that he let himself get bait'n'switched by a contractor. But I don't want more of the sellers' money. I just want to be able to add a few more circuits.
> 
> You know what bothers me the most? The contractor didn't even give me a main breaker panel. It's a bargain-basement MLO, so the service conductors are backfed, taking up the slots that I could otherwise have used to feed a subpanel. I'd have been better off with the old FP panel. I think the guy just took the cheapest box in his inventory and marked it up $1000.
> 
> I'm just whining now; I'll stop


No offense intended, but you were the most qualified expert in this matter. You missed it. It happens. It's happened to us all. Move along and put it behind you. Enjoy your new home. Happy holidays.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Greg Sparkovich said:


> I live in terror of a bad yelp review (albeit in a good way).
> There is no doubt in my mind that having (only) 5-star reviews on Yelp has been the biggest single boost to my business ever.
> 
> I imagine getting a few 1-star reviews would be equally devastating?


I received 1 bad review from a crazy person, I posted about it here. Within a couple weeks Yelp hid it. They also hid a positive review from a customer who joined just to give me the review. They will hide some reviews that might not be genuine.



chicken steve said:


> So 'Yelp', don't 'ET' .....
> 
> ~CS~


Can you explain what you mean by that Steve?


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Is there a mod in the house?

How many times do i have to push the report button?

~CS~


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## Greg Sparkovich (Sep 15, 2007)

I'm glad they hid your review from the crazy person.

I'd think (hope) that part of their algorithm would be to hide reviews that stand out. So my hope is that if that guy kept getting bad reviews, it would flag the alorithm that the consistant reviews are legit.



chicken steve said:


> So 'Yelp', don't 'ET' .....
> 
> ~CS~


Can you explain what you mean by that Steve?[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I didn't get that either...???


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

chicken steve said:


> Is there a mod in the house?
> 
> How many times do i have to push the report button?
> 
> ~CS~


What the heck did I do now???


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Just hire a good Jewish Attorney and sue the seller and the unlicensed hack that didn't pull a permit. Settle out of court. You will win this one.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

HackWork said:


> What the heck did I do now???


It appears you allowed Steve to get stewed last night and now he has a pounding hangover and is delirious. Don't let him get away with it next Friday.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

I realize we're an open pro forum, and the reality that anyone that talks trade can register here

But you have to realize , when someone registers under the guise of '_pro'_ here solely to _pump us for info_ , that it may in fact be fuel for litigation they seek.

There is no bigger predator in the litigant limelight like a seller/buyer dispute, been there, done that, lost the T shirt

~CS~


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## tommydh (Feb 7, 2014)

nhill_68 said:


> MechanicalDVR, thanks. I did work for PSCo a long long time ago. Now I work in data centers, mostly telecom, but I still do some grounding and power backup.
> 
> Thanks everyone for the input. Indeed, I have no legal leverage, but I'm not going to sue the guy. I just want to talk him into giving me what I paid for. His bid specified a service upgrade, and he billed accordingly. I don't mind some cut corners here and there. I do mind being ripped off.
> 
> The only leverage I have is the threat of reporting his unpermitted work. I suppose my only pertinent question is, for you fellows, would that threat be sufficient motivation to come back and redo a panel job?


I too am not really a residential guy, but I worked for a guy that I couldn't believe what he was charging for work. You should know as well as anyone a job cost isn't in material its labor. Hope everything worked out if your truly that unhappy wth it redo it yourself. If you can do it hot why go through the permit issue as long as you know its quality work.


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## Semi-Ret Electrician (Nov 10, 2011)

Sadly, my wife and I were real estate agents. 

Because of "all of the above" and "home inspectors" I now refuse to do work for sellers or work a home inspector's punch list.

As stated many times above, all they want to do is close and move on.


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