# NEC is law but no enforcement



## Wiresmith

do you guys think having the nec as the state law (it is in my state) but there being little if any enforcement of the code unless an accident happens, helps or hurts good contractors and or electricians.


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## hardworkingstiff

I fair much better in places that have NEC enforcement. My prices have always been higher than the low guy, and I had a good rep with customers and inspectors.

I just ask that the inspector not show any partiality. Don't let something slide with one contractor and nail another one for it.


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## backstay

NEC is not law, it's a regulation or statute. Is it good for electrical contractors? Mostly, some of it is pure BS though.


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## Wiresmith

it is adopted as state law in ohio, i would guess other places as well. even though i have never been in a building where i haven't found code violations, even new state inspected buildings.


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## Wiresmith

it just seems it may handicap contractors that care about abiding by the law. especially when it comes to codes that are generally accepted in the industry more as guidelines and in special circumstances not rigidly followed. and also kind of desensitizes people with the code when you see blatant violations passed by state inspectors.


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## HackWork

The NEC is stupid and I don't like it.


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## lighterup

I like NEC code standards and do my best to learn it and apply it.
If we did not have code standards , any one would be permitted to
do what we do.

I"m with hardworkingstiff...I want fair treatment with inspections


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## trentonmakes

hd13 said:


> it is adopted as state law in ohio, i would guess other places as well. even though i have never been in a building where i haven't found code violations, even new state inspected buildings.


Its adopted here in NJ too, but its not law
Its a code or standard.
Manufacturers would be considered law because they Trump the NEC and AHJ


Texting and Driving


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## pudge565

HackWork said:


> The NEC is stupid and I don't like it.


Hi Hack!


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## HackWork

pudge565 said:


> Hi Hack!


Who are you? I used to know a Pudge before he and Gold deserted me.


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## backstay

hd13 said:


> it is adopted as state law in ohio, i would guess other places as well. even though i have never been in a building where i haven't found code violations, even new state inspected buildings.


Adopted as a regulation. 

Ohio Regulations
Reviewed: 6/8/2017

Board of Building Standards
Regina Hanshaw, Executive Secretary
6606 Tussing Road
P.O. Box 4009
Reynoldsburg, Ohio 43068-9009
Phone: (614) 644-2613
Fax: (614) 644-3147
Faxback: (614) 728-1244

Adopted Code. 2017 National Electrical Code, effective November 1, 2017. (NEC-2014 until said date)
Adoption type. State-wide. Code was adopted by the state and is mandatory for all structures.
At a Glance: Licensing Requirements
Electrical Inspectors? Yes. Exam required: NCPCCI—2A and 2B; or ICC—E1 and E2
Electricians? No
Electrical Contractors? Yes
CE Requirements

State of Ohio requires 30 hours of continuing education courses must be completed and attached before renewal of residential and commercial personnel certification within a two-year period. These include electrical inspectors, residential building official, residential plans examiner, residential building inspector, and residential industrialized unit inspector.
Reciprocates

West Virginia and Kentucky (Contractors only)
For additional licensing information, please contact the state board or local jurisdiction in which you reside.


Very few of the rules we live by in this country are laws.


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## trentonmakes

Its a STANDARD!

The*National Electrical Code*(NEC), or*NFPA 70, is a regionally adoptable standard for the safe installation of*electrical wiring*and equipment in the*United States. It is part of the National Fire Codes series published by the*National Fire Protection Association(NFPA), a private*trade association.[1]*Despite the use of the term "national", it is not a*federal law. It is typically adopted by*statesand municipalities in an effort to standardize their enforcement of safe electrical practices.[2]*In some cases, the NEC is amended, altered and may even be rejected in lieu of regional regulations as voted on by local governing bodies.

The "authority having jurisdiction" inspects for compliance with these minimum standards




States can adopt part or whole of the NEC
or not adopt it at all


Texting and Driving


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## hardworkingstiff

trentonmakes said:


> Its a STANDARD!
> 
> The*National Electrical Code*(NEC), or*NFPA 70, is a regionally adoptable standard for the safe installation of*electrical wiring*and equipment in the*United States. It is part of the National Fire Codes series published by the*National Fire Protection Association(NFPA), a private*trade association.[1]*Despite the use of the term "national", it is not a*federal law. It is typically adopted by*statesand municipalities in an effort to standardize their enforcement of safe electrical practices.[2]*In some cases, the NEC is amended, altered and may even be rejected in lieu of regional regulations as voted on by local governing bodies.
> 
> The "authority having jurisdiction" inspects for compliance with these minimum standards
> 
> 
> 
> 
> States can adopt part or whole of the NEC
> or not adopt it at all
> 
> 
> Texting and Driving


Curious, if you don't comply with the standard, did you break a law?


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## backstay

hardworkingstiff said:


> Curious, if you don't comply with the standard, did you break a law?


It's not a law, so no. You've broken a regulation. The state may have passed a law defining penalties for breaking their regulations.


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## hardworkingstiff

backstay said:


> It's not a law, so no. You've broken a regulation. The state may have passed a law defining penalties for breaking their regulations.


I think it doesn't matter what anyone calls it, if you don't comply you eventually won't get to play. Semantics.


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## trentonmakes

hardworkingstiff said:


> Curious, if you don't comply with the standard, did you break a law?


Only if someone dies....

Code is just a minimum standard to meet which is why most states adopt it, its uniformed and easier than making up thier own.

Im sure we all have had an AHJ go above and beyong code simply because.....he can
He just cant force you to do less than code.

Texting and Driving


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## hardworkingstiff

trentonmakes said:


> Im sure we all have had an AHJ go above and beyong code simply because.....he can
> He just cant force you to do less than code.


Due to some strong willed electricians, our inspectors don't push their opinion.


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## TGGT

We need CODE AND ORDER!!!


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## MTW

Common sense can easily replace NEC rules. The NEC is nothing more than a front for manufacturers to push their products. I would much rather be in a place that doesn't enforce the NEC.


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## papaotis

I'm still in the thought of ' minimum '? Or overdone


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## telsa

MTW said:


> Common sense can easily replace NEC rules. The NEC is nothing more than a front for manufacturers to push their products. I would much rather be in a place that doesn't enforce the NEC.


The NEC is a front for the Fire Insurance Industry.

It's enforced by economics -- not jail cells.

You don't play ball: your stuff doesn't receive a Certificate of Occupancy.

That's all.

See how many clients you'll have after a few of those are hanging around your neck.

The OP's beef is typical of the Residential Service Call Market.

Things will never change there. 

Think what an owner can do to his own property -- and no-one is the wiser.

&&&

As for the Fire Insurance Industry calling the shots, look at all of the posts WRT aged wiring: aluminum and K&T. Yes, they ALL turn on what the Fire Insurance Industry wants... or shuns.

Granted, there is corruption of the NEC by way of the NEMA players.

AFCI comes immediately to mind... then handle ties for MWBC... etc.

In the Third World, the Insurance Industry is weak. The results can be seen from street level. Everything is a mess... a farce. And, naturally enough, things keep breaking down... like 'every day' breaking down. 

Puerto Rico is a half-way point in this transition: astounding (retail) power theft while nominally adhering to the NEC and using NEMA products.


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## MechanicalDVR

telsa said:


> *The NEC is a front for the Fire Insurance Industry.*
> 
> *It's enforced by economics* -- not jail cells.
> 
> *You don't play ball: your stuff doesn't receive a Certificate of Occupancy.*
> 
> That's all.
> 
> See how many clients you'll have after a few of those are hanging around your neck.
> 
> The OP's beef is typical of the Residential Service Call Market.
> 
> Things will never change there.
> 
> Think what an owner can do to his own property -- and no-one is the wiser.
> 
> &&&
> 
> As for the Fire Insurance Industry calling the shots, look at all of the posts WRT aged wiring: aluminum and K&T. Yes, they ALL turn on what the Fire Insurance Industry wants... or shuns.
> 
> Granted, there is corruption of the NEC by way of the NEMA players.
> 
> AFCI comes immediately to mind... then handle ties for MWBC... etc.
> 
> In the Third World, the Insurance Industry is weak. The results can be seen from street level. Everything is a mess... a farce. And, naturally enough, things keep breaking down... like 'every day' breaking down.
> 
> Puerto Rico is a half-way point in this transition: astounding (retail) power theft while nominally adhering to the NEC and using NEMA products.



:thumbup:

Very much so!


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## flyboy

telsa said:


> *The NEC is a front for the Fire Insurance Industry.*
> 
> It's enforced by economics -- not jail cells.
> 
> *You don't play ball: your stuff doesn't receive a Certificate of Occupancy.*
> 
> That's all.
> 
> See how many clients you'll have after a few of those are hanging around your neck.
> 
> The OP's beef is typical of the Residential Service Call Market.
> 
> Things will never change there.
> 
> Think what an owner can do to his own property -- and no-one is the wiser.
> 
> &&&
> 
> As for the Fire Insurance Industry calling the shots, look at all of the posts WRT aged wiring: aluminum and K&T. Yes, they ALL turn on what the Fire Insurance Industry wants... or shuns.
> 
> *Granted, there is corruption of the NEC by way of the NEMA players.*
> 
> AFCI comes immediately to mind... then handle ties for MWBC... etc.
> 
> In the Third World, the Insurance Industry is weak. The results can be seen from street level. Everything is a mess... a farce. And, naturally enough, things keep breaking down... like 'every day' breaking down.
> 
> Puerto Rico is a half-way point in this transition: astounding (retail) power theft while nominally adhering to the NEC and using NEMA products.


This topic is of particular interest to me. Especially this: *"The NEC is a front for the Fire Insurance Industry"* and *"there is corruption of the NEC by way of the Nema players"*.

I have to admit I'm a little naive on the subject and when I did a search to learn more about this I came up empty handed. I would be very appreciative if you could provide your resources on this subject. 

Also, I'm curious about what you mean by *"You don't play ball: your stuff doesn't receive a Certificate of Occupancy."* What "stuff" are you referring to? Do you mean occupancies or electrical equipment?


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## HackWork

Oh jeeze, you read a telsa post. You're in for it now :hang:


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## backstay

hardworkingstiff said:


> I think it doesn't matter what anyone calls it, if you don't comply you eventually won't get to play. Semantics.


Laws are enforced by...wait for it..... Law enforcement officers(police). When was the last time you were cuffed and hauled off for a code violation? So, it does matter what you call it.


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## sbrn33

Once it is adopted by the state legislature it is a law. They could cuff and stuff you if they wanted but that is normally not in the wording of the law. 
I am pissed at Pudge for not mentioning me and just kissing hax's ass. 
They should have quit making additions to the code in about 1993, maybe 96. The rest is just fluff in my opinion.


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## HackWork

backstay said:


> Laws are enforced by...wait for it..... Law enforcement officers(police). When was the last time you were cuffed and hauled off for a code violation? So, it does matter what you call it.


You're being very silly.


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## lighterup

With regard to the NEC being a code reference standard for a* regulation*
and not a *Law* , what *Backstay* just said and what *Telsa* just 
said sums it all up.

The "punishment" (if you will) for non compliance of these standards is no 
"Occupancy Permit" being issued by the AHJ...

Also , if a tradesman / company establishes enough of a pattern of non compliance
in theses matters , the licensing commission at the state level who issues trade 
licenses can revoke that companies / tradesman the *privilege*of even having
a license. (I believe this is what Backstay meant by *"not being allowed to play"*


"*Occupancy Permit"* applies to the buildings for new builds / remodels that at the 
time of the the issued "certificate of plan approval" by the AHJ are not occupied.

If there is no *Occupancy Permit* on a building and the resident or business
moves in anyway it can play out in a couple ways I can think of right off the
top of my head..
(1) the AHJ can issue an order to vacate. If the order is ignored than the law is
brought into the matter , a warrant is ordered by the court and the sherriffs
department will eventually handle the matter.
(2) the insurance company will not insure the property.


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## telsa

flyboy said:


> This topic is of particular interest to me. Especially this: *"The NEC is a front for the Fire Insurance Industry"* and *"there is corruption of the NEC by way of the Nema players"*.
> 
> I have to admit I'm a little naive on the subject and when I did a search to learn more about this I came up empty handed. I would be very appreciative if you could provide your resources on this subject.
> 
> Also, I'm curious about what you mean by *"You don't play ball: your stuff doesn't receive a Certificate of Occupancy."* What "stuff" are you referring to? Do you mean occupancies or electrical equipment?


You don't realize that the NEC was ESTABLISHED by the Fire Insurance Industry ?

Let's just start right there.


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## flyboy

telsa said:


> You don't realize that the NEC was ESTABLISHED by the Fire Insurance Industry


I'm fully aware of the HISTORY of NFPA 70. I simply asked to see the data that supports your assertion that it's a "*front* for the insurance industry and *corrution* of the NEC by way of NEMA players". 



telsa said:


> Let's just start right there.


Just because "the NEC (NFPA) was ESTABLISHED by the Fire Insurance Industry" does not necessarily make it a "front" for them nor does it support your alleged "corruption" claim of the NEC". I asked if you had any other data to support the claim. If you don't, no big deal. Its simply a conspiracy theory.


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## MTW

sbrn33 said:


> They should have quit making additions to the code in about 1993, maybe 96. The rest is just fluff in my opinion.


I agree, these editions of the code ever since have been getting totally ridiculous. Was there something totally dangerous about wiring back in the 1990's that now needs to be corrected?


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## dronai

telsa said:


> The NEC is a front for the Fire Insurance Industry.
> 
> It's enforced by economics -- not jail cells.
> 
> You don't play ball: your stuff doesn't receive a Certificate of Occupancy.
> 
> That's all.
> 
> See how many clients you'll have after a few of those are hanging around your neck.
> 
> The OP's beef is typical of the Residential Service Call Market.
> 
> Things will never change there.
> 
> Think what an owner can do to his own property -- and no-one is the wiser.
> 
> &&&
> 
> As for the Fire Insurance Industry calling the shots, look at all of the posts WRT aged wiring: aluminum and K&T. Yes, they ALL turn on what the Fire Insurance Industry wants... or shuns.
> 
> Granted, there is corruption of the NEC by way of the NEMA players.
> 
> AFCI comes immediately to mind... then *handle ties for MWBC*... etc.
> 
> In the Third World, the Insurance Industry is weak. The results can be seen from street level. Everything is a mess... a farce. And, naturally enough, things keep breaking down... like 'every day' breaking down.
> 
> Puerto Rico is a half-way point in this transition: astounding (retail) power theft while nominally adhering to the NEC and using NEMA products.


Handle ties on MWBC can be a life saver


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## Wiresmith

Route: Ohio Administrative Code » 4101:1 Board of Building Standards: Ohio Building Code
Chapter 4101:1-27 Electrical Components, Equipment and Systems


4101:1-27-01 [Effective until 11/1/2017] Electrical.
SECTION 2701 GENERAL

2701.1 Scope. This chapter governs the electrical components, equipment and systems used in buildings and structures covered by this code. Electrical components, equipment and systems shall be designed and constructed in accordance with the provisions of NFPA 70.



this is what i'm referring to as law, state says you have to install per nfpa 70, if someone doesn't install to this and someone gets hurt or something burns down they can file criminal charges against you and even if it wasn't a result of the non-conformance, with it written like this it makes it easier for a lawsuit or charges to be filed against you.


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## Wiresmith

if the state and building departments are going to inspect and pass installations that are not code compliant, when it is a written "whatever you wanna call it" (all while charging the customer and tax-payers for inspections), i don't know if it would better match the real world if the law said using nfpa 70 as a guideline. i think if the inspectors would hold everyone to the code this wouldn't matter, but they don't. just been thinking about it and not sure so i wanted your guys' thoughts.


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## pudge565

HackWork said:


> Who are you? I used to know a Pudge before he and Gold deserted me.


Jobs and lives. I'm an important inspector now and I'm working on my BSEE.



sbrn33 said:


> Once it is adopted by the state legislature it is a law. They could cuff and stuff you if they wanted but that is normally not in the wording of the law.
> I am pissed at Pudge for not mentioning me and just kissing hax's ass.
> They should have quit making additions to the code in about 1993, maybe 96. The rest is just fluff in my opinion.


Sorry I am boycotting the name Sabrina right now...


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## readydave8

MTW said:


> I agree, these editions of the code ever since have been getting totally ridiculous. Was there something totally dangerous about wiring back in the 1990's that now needs to be corrected?


Yeah some rules are totally ridiculous

But many electricians felt that way in the '60s about grounded receptacles

And I remember thinking that GFCI's were unnecessary in the '70s, just another code to make more money for manufacturers

So maybe we'll get used to it


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## MTW

readydave8 said:


> Yeah some rules are totally ridiculous
> 
> But many electricians felt that way in the '60s about grounded receptacles
> 
> And I remember thinking that GFCI's were unnecessary in the '70s, just another code to make more money for manufacturers
> 
> So maybe we'll get used to it


I have no issues whatsoever with GFCI's or grounding. I'm all for expanding the use of GFCI's. But otherwise I consider the NEC as valuable as toilet paper.


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## HackWork

MTW said:


> I have no issues whatsoever with GFCI's or grounding. I'm all for expanding the use of GFCI's.


I have no issues with GFCIs either, but I don't think we need to expand their use any further. Even the last expansion to garage door openers is silly.

Like Jackwad said, the 96 code was fine.


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## MTW

HackWork said:


> I have no issues with GFCIs either, but I don't think we need to expand their use any further. Even the last expansion to garage door openers is silly.
> 
> Like Jackwad said, the 96 code was fine.


Now that I think about it, you're right. It has gone overboard. Having blanket rules for GFCI's in basements for sump pumps, ejector pumps, freezers, etc is stupid. tI'd be totally happy with the 96 NEC.


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## HackWork

MTW said:


> Now that I think about it, you're right.


Yes!!!


I knew I would get _something_ right today. 

It still counts even if it took until 9:30PM :yes:


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## sbrn33

pudge565 said:


> Sorry I am boycotting the name Sabrina right now...


Bowled a 675 the other night. When you want lessons come on down.


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## chicken steve

One can view the NEC (or the entire NFPA library ) as legalese 

Or.....

One can view it from purely a _business _standpoint.

As in , the NEC is a benchmark _standard_ that we're all bidding, estimating etc against

W/o said benchmark , we (_how many years did you school?_) would be competing against trunk slammer DIY'ers 

For any biz to survive, a level playing field must exist 

agreed?

~CS~


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## chicken steve

Case in point, many states have _zero_ single family enforcement , as well as _zero _requirements for an HI 

Doesn't always work out.....~CS~


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## sbrn33

chicken steve said:


> Case in point, many states have _zero_ single family enforcement , as well as _zero _requirements for an HI
> 
> Doesn't always work out.....~CS~


Why would a HI need to have any requirements. They do no installations just recommendations.


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## readydave8

MTW said:


> I have no issues whatsoever with GFCI's or grounding.


I know, I don't either

But I did have issues with new GFCI requirements as recently as 25 years ago

And knew many electricians that had issues with new grounding requirements 50 years ago

So maybe 25 years from now we'll be comfortable with present code


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## hardworkingstiff

sbrn33 said:


> Why would a HI need to have any requirements. They do no installations just recommendations.


I look at it that they are selling a service, similar to an attorney or an accountant, to a home buyer. I think it is good if a HI has to meet certain knowledge requirements.


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## HackWork

sbrn33 said:


> Why would a HI need to have any requirements. They do no installations just recommendations.


You're right. And the same goes for municipal electrical, plumbing, and building inspectors. They don't do installations so they shouldn't have any requirements.


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## lighterup

flyboy said:


> I'm fully aware of the HISTORY of NFPA 70. I simply asked to see the data that supports your assertion that it's a "*front* for the insurance industry and *corrution* of the NEC by way of NEMA players".
> 
> 
> 
> Just because "the NEC (NFPA) was ESTABLISHED by the Fire Insurance Industry" does not necessarily make it a "front" for them nor does it support your alleged "corruption" claim of the NEC". I asked if you had any other data to support the claim. If you don't, no big deal. Its simply a *conspiracy theory*.


Yeah I've noticed those are going around on this forum quite a bit
by *The High Grand Pooh-Bahh of Up Butt Crack.*.


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## lighterup

hardworkingstiff said:


> I look at it that they are selling a service, similar to an attorney or an accountant, to a home buyer. I think it is good if a HI has to meet certain knowledge requirements.


The main issue with HI's is they are not unbiased inspections , but
rather are pro - whoever is paying for their service.

In many cases , the gigs they put on their reports can have such
a negative impact on the seller (without actually sighting real genuine 
code references) that they ruin the potential sale for the seller and 
more often than they're not even right.

Recent call from seller wanting me to come and "fix" the "code violations"
from the buyers "Home Inspection Report"....

(1) *MUST*have all smoke detectors hardwired and interconnected
throughout each floor and the basement...wrong-house was built
in the 1950's with no modifications-it is grandfathered
Ohio Residential Code has this in place for new builds or remodels.

(2) Switches and outlet receptacles ungrounded...wrong-it's knob & tube
and still had 2 prong outlets - grandfathered

(3) No gfci receptacles on kitchen counter - original install is still there
grandfathered

(4) No outdoor weatherproof receptacles wrong - grandfathered

Now here is what the report did not have and should have had

A new panel and new meter socket enclosure has been installed
recently and there were no ground rods and an undersized GEC
went to the water line.
Unstrapped (insufficiently strapped) MC cable in the garage was
hanging down and off the wall
Overhead service conductors landed directly on what appeared 
from my vantage point , to be a hook lag screw which was screwed 
into the shingles about 6' up from the eave. The service conductors 
then laid flat on the roof until they went over another eave edge
directly into a sideways mounted pvc weatherhead facing upward 
toward the sky and then 90 down to the top of the meter socket 
enclosure.
HO began to argue my points & I walked away at a very brisk pace.


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## chicken steve

Eggzactly Lighter:thumbsup:

Being directed by nothing more than a semi retired and/or ex-GC w/o much for credentials is a recipe for litigation 

~CS~


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## Wiresmith

chicken steve said:


> One can view the NEC (or the entire NFPA library ) as legalese
> 
> Or.....
> 
> One can view it from purely a _business _standpoint.
> 
> As in , the NEC is a benchmark _standard_ that we're all bidding, estimating etc against
> 
> W/o said benchmark , we (_how many years did you school?_) would be competing against trunk slammer DIY'ers
> 
> For any biz to survive, a level playing field must exist
> 
> agreed?
> 
> ~CS~


so do you think having the installations required to be installed per code by the state in writing and no/minimal enforcement is a level playing field? in my experience with inspections they treat everyone equally. i think it might give contractors that follow the code the least a big advantage over ones that follow the code strictly whether they believe the code is right or not but because it is law/required by the government. i'm not sure though.


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## MTW

I actually despise the NEC now that is a corrupt document to help manufacturers sell products. I only comply when inspections are happening.


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## nrp3

The fact that he mentioned it has outdated wiring methods, knob and tube, might cause problems with lenders anyway, so it's not such a bad thing to mention during the inspection. The ungrounded receptacles are better than the grounded ones in that, it would seem, no one has messed with it. I know they pick up the usual things and walk right by things that are truly hazardous. My sisters place had a subpanel in the garage fed by a 60 amp breaker in the basement. The subpanel had a 100 amp main, can't have that...


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## pudge565

nrp3 said:


> The fact that he mentioned it has outdated wiring methods, knob and tube, might cause problems with lenders anyway, so it's not such a bad thing to mention during the inspection. The ungrounded receptacles are better than the grounded ones in that, it would seem, no one has messed with it. I know they pick up the usual things and walk right by things that are truly hazardous. My sisters place had a subpanel in the garage fed by a 60 amp breaker in the basement. The subpanel had a 100 amp main, can't have that...


Why can't you have a 60 amp breaker feeding a 100 amp breaker? You do realize that as long as the feeder from that 60 is rated for 60 amps and the calculated load of the panel is less than 60 amps it is 100% fine right?


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## pudge565

sbrn33 said:


> Bowled a 675 the other night. When you want lessons come on down.


Woouldn't that be up and over?


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## nrp3

I was being sarcastic


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## flyboy

nrp3 said:


> I was being sarcastic


This is not the place for sarcasm. This is a place where intelligent, well balanced and considerate electricians come to discuss the nuances of the electrical industry.


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## HackWork

Yeah.


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## pudge565

nrp3 said:


> I was being sarcastic


Sorry my sarcasm detector can't interpret type, use emojiis next time!:thumbsup:



flyboy said:


> This is not the place for sarcasm. This is a place where intelligent, well balanced and considerate electricians come to discuss the nuances of the electrical industry.


:laughing: you sure about that:whistling2:


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## chicken steve

hd13 said:


> so do you think having the installations required to be installed per code by the state in writing and no/minimal enforcement is a level playing field? in my experience with inspections they treat everyone equally. i think it might give contractors that follow the code the least a big advantage over ones that follow the code strictly whether they believe the code is right or not but because it is law/required by the government. i'm not sure though.


Methinks we've all seen laws (_or code for that matter_) slip through the holes of weak enforcement , to where probably_ every_ tenured spark here has a story of being '_beaten out_' Hd.

The fact is, most bona fide EC's will view any _ lesser_ install as a liability to their own existence regardless of _any_ authorities presence.

The price of being bona fide is subscribing to a standard , if the _powers that be _ fail to have our backs, we all fall down a notch as tradesmen

~CS~


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## Wirenut951

Wiresmith said:


> do you guys think having the nec as the state law (it is in my state) but there being little if any enforcement of the code unless an accident happens, helps or hurts good contractors and or electricians.


I think it definitely hurts the electrical trade as a whole. If you constantly make mistakes and are never corrected (The inspector lets you get away with subpar installations) you will teach those mistakes, its a domino effect.

I've struggled with this. I take a lot of pride in my work and as an apprentice and a newer journeyman I had a foreman who was having me install things against code, but in that situation its his way or the highway and I need my job so what can I really say? when you do speak up it is taken as disrespect, "how could you possibly know better than me I've been doing this 20+ years!"

Inspectors need to be checked too. I've seen them pass blatant code violations several times, most likely out of ignorance, a lot of the inspectors on our jobs are multiple trade inspectors not just electrical inspectors so that doesn't help.


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## kb1jb1

The Authority Having Jurisdiction.

I always wondered about the term, The authority having jurisdiction. Or "qualified person". Who can that person be? The lunch lady at the Town Hall Building Department?

Years ago it use to be friends of the building department head that got the job.


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