# Maybe a bit full



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

I can hear the guy upstairs now, "Hey, Darrin, connect the blacks and whites together now!"

I doubt that's a legal use of the TAs, either.


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## te12co2w (Jun 3, 2007)

"YIKES". Maybe the old loadcenter was there? Nightmare to trouble shoot if all of that gets sheetrocked.


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## electricalperson (Jan 11, 2008)

this wasnt one of peter d's jobs was it


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## thekctermite (May 6, 2008)

Even if this was the right box for this application, do you think that I'm right in thinking that they could have 177 #12 conductors in a 10x10x4 box? Not sure how many are there but I can't imagine that 177 would ever fit!


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

thekctermite said:


> Even if this was the right box for this application, do you think that I'm right in thinking that they could have 177 #12 conductors in a 10x10x4 box? Not sure how many are there but I can't imagine that 177 would ever fit!


Assuming 400 sq in, than your calculations are correct, per 314.16.

400 cu in/2.25 = 177.
Remember, _*all *_the EGCs count only as 1 conductor... :whistling2:
So, 176 insulated conductors, so, the equivalent of 88 12-2s. 

Got a hammer for the cover? :laughing:


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

Why, oh, why in hell was this done like that? It looks like new work. There's no reason for a tap box like that. And even if the cubic volume is OK, the TA's won't fly, in my opinion.


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## cdnelectrician (Mar 14, 2008)

Why are those boxes there in the first place?


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

InPhase277 said:


> And even if the cubic volume is OK, the TA's won't fly, in my opinion.


Agreed.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

cdnelectrician said:


> Why are those boxes there in the first place?


I see what looks like very old floor joists, and it appears there's subfloor on top of that installed at a 45° angle.... typical for homes of a certain vintage.

I'll bet dollars to donughts there was on old fuse box there, and it was replaced with a new CB panel. Someone either wanted their panel to look aboslutely perfect (no wire nuts) or had the mistake notion that wire nuts are not allowed in panels.

My question is, why is there so many 10-3s? I can understand a cooktop, a wall oven and a dryer, but 5 or 6 10-3???


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## cdnelectrician (Mar 14, 2008)

It's a complete mess


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

480sparky said:


> I see what looks like very old floor joists, and it appears there's subfloor on top of that installed at a 45° angle.... typical for homes of a certain vintage.
> 
> I'll bet dollars to donughts there was on old fuse box there, and it was replaced with a new CB panel. Someone either wanted their panel to look aboslutely perfect (no wire nuts) or had the mistake notion that wire nuts are not allowed in panels.
> 
> My question is, why is there so many 10-3s? I can understand a cooktop, a wall oven and a dryer, but 5 or 6 10-3???


I doubt it. That all looks like new romex, I don't see any old BX, romex, etc.

Maybe the panels were relocated after being cut in, and the wires wouldn't quite reach the new location.


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

I just noticed, look at the bend on the SE cable in the second picture!


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## thekctermite (May 6, 2008)

_Why oh why in the hell_ is a great question that I long for the answer to. :yes:

Total gut and remodel of an existing home. They left the panels in place and tied all the new wiring thoughout the house to the short homeruns to the panel in these boxes. Electrically, the house was packed with code violations. The panels were generally ok comparatively. 

I'm not allowing this installation as it is. Amongst other things, there are a number of connections in the boxes that tie two circuits' phase conductors to single conductors landed to one breaker. That is the only "logic" I can apply to their reasoning for doing what they've done. I've requested a meeting with the electrician at the jobsite before they start redoing this to make sure we agree on the next plan of action. Normally I'm ok just writing a correction list, but some conversations are better had in person.

Side note: "TA's" isn't a term I'm familiar with, although I think you're referring to the weathertight boxes used in this application (instead of with conduit). I'm sure it is obvious but I'm not used to hearing that term. Enlighten me please!


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

JohnJ0906 said:


> I doubt it. That all looks like new romex, I don't see any old BX, romex, etc.
> 
> Maybe the panels were relocated after being cut in, and the wires wouldn't quite reach the new location.


Copper theives?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

thekctermite said:


> _........_Side note: "TA's" isn't a term I'm familiar with, although I think you're referring to the weathertight boxes used in this application (instead of with conduit). I'm sure it is obvious but I'm not used to hearing that term. Enlighten me please!


 
TA is a Terminal Edapter. AKA Male Adapter. The threaded PVC fittings the NMs are run through.


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## thekctermite (May 6, 2008)

JohnJ0906 said:


> Assuming 400 sq in, than your calculations are correct, per 314.16.
> 
> 400 cu in/2.25 = 177.
> Remember, _*all *_the EGCs count only as 1 conductor... :whistling2:
> ...


Thanks. I was hoping I was missing something. Amazing that a box that full is code-legal. I wouldn't put my name on it.


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

thekctermite said:


> Amongst other things, there are a number of connections in the boxes that tie two circuits' phase conductors to single conductors landed to one breaker.


Not a violation, in and of itself.





> Side note: "TA's" isn't a term I'm familiar with, although I think you're referring to the weathertight boxes used in this application (instead of with conduit). I'm sure it is obvious but I'm not used to hearing that term. Enlighten me please!


"Terminal Adapter" - That's the PVC connectors being (improperly) used


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

480sparky said:


> Copper theives?


Around here, they don't leave enough for splicing...


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## cdnelectrician (Mar 14, 2008)

"TA" stands for Terminal Adapter...in reference to the 2" PVC connectors. Is this allowed where you are? Never seen them used like that before!


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

cdnelectrician said:


> .... Never seen them used like that before!


Probably because there' not to be used that way.


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## thekctermite (May 6, 2008)

Thanks for the clarification on the TA term. Nope, that's not an installation that's allowed around here. Need the right part for the job.

In response to the question about the 10's...There are three laundry rooms in this home, so that'll account for most of them. There's also an oven or two as I recall. 

The panels appear to have been replaced within the last few years, but are not nearly as new as the 10x10's and the bulk of the romex.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

It looks like they bought a half dozen or so of those Buchanan 150 count wire nut jars at HD that have half red and half yellow wing nuts in them.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

Those red and yellow wirenuts come in small mixed jar you can buy at big orange... they are quite cheap!

budget electrician/hack/trunkslammer/moonlighter


I bet the HO got quite a deal

~Matt


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

Peter D said:


> It looks like they bought a half dozen or so of those Buchanan 150 count wire nut jars at HD that have half red and half yellow wing nuts in them.


:shifty: ok so you beat me to it.


~Matt


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

TOOL_5150 said:


> Those red and yellow wirenuts come in small mixed jar you can buy at big orange... they are quite cheap!


Copycat! :jester:


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