# Help: Pulling multiple lines through long conduit runs



## Mack Koelle (9 mo ago)

Hello all,

I’m seeking advice on pulling multiple lines through large conduit runs. Here’s the situation: 

We are currently pulling a LOT of lines through 4” conduit in a stadium for Voltserver digital electricity. The cables are, if i remember 8-pair 14AWG, roughly the size of 00 wire in total. We are running into a lot of trouble pulling through a particular run of 250ft, with a ton of bends, at LEAST 360 degrees. Not only are there multiple back to back 45 sweeps, but some of the bends dive and rise and some sweep side to side. Long story short, after 8 lines in there our mule tape is certainly getting more and more wrapped. We’ve already re-rodded the conduit multiple times between pulls with a tennis ball on the end (high tech i know). The pulls still are near impossible (2 of our largest men with their entire body weight and strength pulling) and to top it all off the jacket on the wires is extremely fragile, so im pretty sure everything in the conduit is FUBAR at this point, but only time will tell. 
Im getting to the point where we have exhausted all options of making things go smoother. We are pulling one line at a time, and running mule tape with each pull. The reels are so large we cannot possibly run more than 3 at a time. We are keeping tension on the mule tape as it goes in. We are using lube. We rigged pulleys at the end of the conduit on beam clamps to try to re-direct and get better angles to pull.
I suggested running all of our mule tape lines at once, and having them all straight and in there and having them secured on both ends, but was shot down by the forman. Is there any other methods that you can possibly share and help us? Thank you for reading.


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## bill39 (Sep 4, 2009)

Several questions:

Are you pulling in one group of cables along with a spare pull rope to use on 2nd pull?
Are the rope(s) braided? If so, they will tend to twist when a strain is applied.
Are you using a swivel on the pull rope? That will help cut down on the rope twisting.
Are there any pull boxes?
How many total pulls into same conduit eill their be?


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

Over-pulls are always bad news as you are nylon to nylon as the wires rub. Also on the inside of the corners the previous wires are in the direct path of the over-pulls so they like to tangle.

I would pull a string to one landing point then tie a knot at the other to use as a tape measure. I would then use that to lay the cables out into a bundle then roll them on a real and send them as one set. The better option is to measure all the conduits and have the wire supplier do the grunt work but that normally takes a few days lead time.


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## BleedingLungsMurphy (10 mo ago)

More lube. Literally buckets of lube get the thick yellow ****. 

You can't just pull harder, you will damage the wire or the conduit then you're really ****ed. Take a step back and think about how long you will waste forcing it and how long it would take to pull it out and do it right.

Everything has to go in at the same time. You're crazy trying to do multiple pulls with that many bends. Never pull without pushing. It will go.


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## bill39 (Sep 4, 2009)

This is as good a place as any to retell this true story. While working at the new Rockport, IN power plant in 1983-84 I was on the cable pulling crew that worked mainly outsjde pulling control cables thru manholes to the various buildings onsite.

No joke, the ”conduits” were 12”, 16”, & 24” in diameter between the manholes. This “conduit” was actually creosote cardboard tubes with about 1” thick walls. Manholes might have been anywhere from 50 to 100 yards aprt. Buildings may have been 300 or 400 yards apart.

Their idea was to pull in a group of cables & extra pull rope then do it again using the extra rope, and again and again. Bad idea, lotsa damaged cable but ithad to be proven it couldn’t be done their way. Just plain crazy.


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

Ok first download the Greenlee PullCalc app or something similar. Verify how much tension you need to even make this pull possible, if at all. Or do the calcs by hand. If it won’t go, it won’t go. No amount of prayer fixes this. Lesson learned: fix your conduit rubs. Pull boxes are not optional. If the app says it won’t work then lesson learned on that water line you just put in.

Realistically #14 is only good to around 100” pounds tension before you rip the jacket off or pull the copper apart. So a cheap Pullzall that you can find in just about any industrial supply is plenty. It does about 1,000 pounds. Two electricians are going to top out at maybe 300 pounds.

The entire key to every pull is setup. Either lay out every cable first and tape them together as suggested or I just set up enough spools on a rack. When you pull off cable to lay out all spools must go in the same direction. Do NOT pull sideways off the side of a spool ever. This is “fast” but leaves twists in the cable that just turn from twists to kinks. If you spend a lot of time setting up your pull then it will go much easier.

Ideally a pull is a 4 man job. One to feed in cable on the end. One to lube. One to run the puller and one to guide it back out. The man runnjng the puller and the one guiding it in have hands free cell phones or radios or can yell signals. BUT you can get by with less if again you spend more time on setup to eliminate any snags, rollers or slides to guide everything in…everything you can to make a successful pull. One man pulls are possible with really good setups but two is normally a minimum.

I’m not sure why you used a tennis ball. For one thing that’s not a tight fit for cleaning in 4” PVC. You should have made sure to use electrical grade PVC and fittings. You have to cut the ends square and fit them well and ream off every burr so it doesn’t have any spot to snag a cable. You can’t fix this after the fact. Gravel or dirt in the conduit can’t ever be cleaned out and just causes more friction issues.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Mack Koelle said:


> We are currently pulling a LOT of lines through 4” conduit in a stadium for Voltserver digital electricity. The cables are, if i remember 8-pair 14AWG,


What is Digital Electricity™ | Efficient Power Distribution for a modern world (voltserver.com)

*Just eye-popping what snake oil salespeople can say with a straight face 
🙃🙃🙃 *





> Digital Electricity™ is a proven line-powering technology listed to IEC 62368-1 as a Limited Power Source which allows installation using standard multi-conductor cabling, typically without conduit, while conforming to the NEC and CEC Code standards for building installation.
> 
> Digital Electricity™ qualifies to use Class 2 wiring methods but has significant power capacity to directly energize high-power devices. Digital Electricity™ cabling can run alongside or together with fiber in both vertical and horizontal spaces to deliver power to remote devices.














Any chance the main thing they're trying to save on with this cockamamie scheme is qualified people making a decent wage installing it? If so this kind of nonsense is going to happen.


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

Mack Koelle said:


> We are running into a lot of trouble pulling through a particular run of 250ft, with a ton of bends, at LEAST 360 degrees. Not only are there multiple back to back 45 sweeps, but some of the bends dive and rise and some sweep side to side.


How much more than 360 degrees would you estimate? 

I hope you will come back and share how you deal with this. I think you are going to have to pull everything out and start over. Sorry.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

oldsparky52 said:


> How much more than 360 degrees would you estimate?
> 
> I hope you will come back and share how you deal with this. I think you are going to have to pull everything out and start over. Sorry.


i think he is going to have to add a pull point. i have found it very difficult to get a fish tape past 360 and straight pipe the rest of the way. if 2 big guys cant make it go, they have already damaged some or all of the wire
my fourth 90 is ALWAYS a pull point


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

I make sure to put in at least a couple of C conduits along the way. 
I believe this goes back to poor design, they should have installed 3-3" or 3-2" 
Once you get passed 4 re-pulls, its going to really, really suck. 
The fact that you have 360 degrees, changing elevations and directions, just turns it into a "post-tension" system as they use in concrete slabs.


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## SWDweller (Dec 9, 2020)

Trying to do this is the mark of an ignorant field installer. Ignorant because everyone knows you pull all the wire at once. Or suffer the consequences.

I was working on a Stadium remodel where the LV/signals people thought the NEC and 360 degree of bends only applied to line voltage equipment. They tied 1 ton trucks to the ropes and when the conduit came off the ceiling they went HUHHHH?


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

SWDweller said:


> Trying to do this is the mark of an ignorant field installer. Ignorant because everyone knows you pull all the wire at once. Or suffer the consequences.
> 
> I was working on a Stadium remodel where the LV/signals people thought the NEC and 360 degree of bends only applied to line voltage equipment. They tied 1 ton trucks to the ropes and when the conduit came off the ceiling they went HUHHHH?


Who let the LV guys run pipe?


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

SWDweller said:


> Trying to do this is the mark of an ignorant field installer. Ignorant because everyone knows you pull all the wire at once. Or suffer the consequences.
> 
> I was working on a Stadium remodel where the LV/signals people thought the NEC and 360 degree of bends only applied to line voltage equipment. They tied 1 ton trucks to the ropes and when the conduit came off the ceiling they went HUHHHH?


All due respect to the OP this is definitely being done by someone doing this all for the very first time without adult supervision and the results are predictable.


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## SWDweller (Dec 9, 2020)

The LV contractor got the job and decided to since it was all exposed and mostly straight they could "get r done". They even used set screw couplings and could not understand why the vacuums would not pull a bird 500 feet with 4" EMT. Ended up using masking tape on all of the joints. Mostly guys from manpower when the conduit was going up.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

SWDweller said:


> The LV contractor got the job and decided to since it was all exposed and mostly straight they could "get r done". They even used set screw couplings and could not understand why the vacuums would not pull a bird 500 feet with 4" EMT. Ended up using masking tape on all of the joints. Mostly guys from manpower when the conduit was going up.


Well that sucks! Sorry, couldn’t help myself.


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## BleedingLungsMurphy (10 mo ago)

Almost Retired said:


> . i have found it very difficult to get a fish tape past 360 and straight pipe the rest of the way


If you can get a rope through you can get the cable throuh but it will have to be in one bundle with a long tapered head.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Mack Koelle said:


> Hello all,
> 
> I’m seeking advice on pulling multiple lines through large conduit runs. Here’s the situation:
> 
> ...


You have a couple of problems here.

One, you forgot the seven pea’s. ( Proper prior planning prevents piss poor production.)

Two, no conduit run should contain more than 360° of bands, and since you’re obviously not an electrician (because real electricians would know it does not matter if they’re a back to back 45s that sweep to the left, or the right, or up and down… An angle is an angle is an angle)

Three, two words my friend: poly water.

Four, when pulling conductors in a conduit, you pull them all at the same time. If you have large reels and you’re pulling multiple runs then use your mule tape to measure out the run and peel off each and every run you have going in this conduit and lay them out on the floor first then pull them all in at the same time.


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## Mack Koelle (9 mo ago)

bill39 said:


> Several questions:
> 
> Are you pulling in one group of cables along with a spare pull rope to use on 2nd pull?
> Are the rope(s) braided? If so, they will tend to twist when a strain is applied.
> ...





bill39 said:


> Several questions:
> 
> Are you pulling in one group of cables along with a spare pull rope to use on 2nd pull?
> Are the rope(s) braided? If so, they will tend to twist when a strain is applied.
> ...


1. We are pulling in 2 at a time, if we can. Mule tape is tied and taped to head on each pull for next pull.
2. Mule tape
3. No swivel. Great idea though! Problem is the mule tape tag line following our line through for the next pull is wrapping 
4. No pull boxes.
5. Somewhere in the ballpark of 8 pulls in same conduit (problem probably lies there)


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## Mack Koelle (9 mo ago)

gpop said:


> Over-pulls are always bad news as you are nylon to nylon as the wires rub. Also on the inside of the corners the previous wires are in the direct path of the over-pulls so they like to tangle.
> 
> I would pull a string to one landing point then tie a knot at the other to use as a tape measure. I would then use that to lay the cables out into a bundle then roll them on a real and send them as one set. The better option is to measure all the conduits and have the wire supplier do the grunt work but that normally takes a few days lead time.


We have been using mule tape, so we know exact measurements of conduit runs. Problem is that our tricky section of 250ft where all our problems lie is in only one section in the middle of 5 total sections of the pull, so everything is gravy until we reach this one conduit section. It is in a stadium and each room at the ends of the run are tiny and tons of obstructions so we are bellying out as much as we can and having to pull in increments.


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## Mack Koelle (9 mo ago)

splatz said:


> What is Digital Electricity™ | Efficient Power Distribution for a modern world (voltserver.com)
> 
> *Just eye-popping what snake oil salespeople can say with a straight face
> 🙃🙃🙃 *
> ...


Well, all the conduit runs were put in place by union electricians, and i dont think they had their A-team on it. More than 360 degrees of bends


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## Mack Koelle (9 mo ago)

LGLS said:


> You have a couple of problems here.
> 
> One, you forgot the seven pea’s. ( Proper prior planning prevents piss poor production.)
> 
> ...


You’re right, im not an electrician. I work in telecom and we’re pulling lines and i figured i’d go to the guys who do this **** all day to figure out a better plan. No need to be smart ass, everyone knows bends make any pull harder when you’re pulling in 8 cables through tons of sweeps. Each of the 8 lines contain 8 pairs of 14awg, amounting to what appears to be equivalent of 00 in thickness, yet ours is admittedly more bendable. Still an issue, though. We did not install the conduits, they were union electricians. There is more than 360 degrees of bend in this run, but apparently it checks out with them and we have no other option but to work with what we got. Not all electricians are as smart as you! We have been figure 8ing multiple runs at once to pull in, but the issue is this particular conduit run is in the middle of 5 different sections we have to pull through, and the room is a tiny 8x10 box and full of obstructions and cabinets for other company’s telecom equipments and we cannot possibly figure 8 20,000ft of cable in there. All lines have to go through this conduit, but all lines land in different areas past that, so all different lengths. Lastly, I am not the one in charge on this project, im just looking for ideas to present to my boss for the next side of the project were working on since this plan has screwed us all this far and i’m certain we will be pulling it all again due to lines being damaged. I am actually the least senior one on the team I am on, but you know how it is: old heads set in their ways and dont listen to young dudes but it’s worth a shot!


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## Mack Koelle (9 mo ago)

paulengr said:


> Ok first download the Greenlee PullCalc app or something similar. Verify how much tension you need to even make this pull possible, if at all. Or do the calcs by hand. If it won’t go, it won’t go. No amount of prayer fixes this. Lesson learned: fix your conduit rubs. Pull boxes are not optional. If the app says it won’t work then lesson learned on that water line you just put in.
> 
> Realistically #14 is only good to around 100” pounds tension before you rip the jacket off or pull the copper apart. So a cheap Pullzall that you can find in just about any industrial supply is plenty. It does about 1,000 pounds. Two electricians are going to top out at maybe 300 pounds.
> 
> ...


I might not have been clear about the cable structure we’re pulling: it’s for digital electricity, by Voltserver. Each line contains 8 pairs of 14awg, in total amounting to a line with the thickness of what appears to be 00. To make matters worse, each spool we have is 2000 ft, 500lbs of cable. Also, each line going through this run of conduit (4” Rigid, not PVC) goes to a different area, so lengths are all different. Tennis ball was only used because we had lines in there already and we had to put the rodder back in to get a fresh mule tape in since ours we tagged onto the previous pull was wrapped to all hell and would not budge. Had to find something to fill the space remaining in the conduit as much as possible to put a new mule tape in. Jimmy-rigged for sure but it worked. Since this is a large union job, with lots of oversight from safety people, each pull requires 8 men. People have to hold ladders for people. People have to stand and watch for guys in the “vaults”, which are only 4’ deep. To put into perspective how rediculous their safety measures are, they even make us sniff the 4x4 vault (essentially an oversized pull box you can get in) with an 02 meter and fill out paperwork even though my head and shoulders are literally above ground.


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

Mack Koelle said:


> We have been using mule tape, so we know exact measurements of conduit runs. Problem is that our tricky section of 250ft where all our problems lie is in only one section in the middle of 5 total sections of the pull, so everything is gravy until we reach this one conduit section. It is in a stadium and each room at the ends of the run are tiny and tons of obstructions so we are bellying out as much as we can and having to pull in increments.


I learn years ago that starting at the beginning on a pain in the arse pull is normally not the best idea. So pulling the center section first should be a option you consider. Get rid of the longest worse part then shoot the cables from that point.


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

Is it steel or PVC pipe?  I see you answered that.

What is the outer jacket of the cable made of? Are the conductors stranded or solid?


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

Mack Koelle said:


> 1. We are pulling in 2 at a time, if we can. Mule tape is tied and taped to head on each pull for next pull.
> 2. Mule tape
> 3. No swivel. Great idea though! Problem is the mule tape tag line following our line through for the next pull is wrapping
> 4. No pull boxes.
> 5. Somewhere in the ballpark of 8 pulls in same conduit (problem probably lies there)


1. Again 2 at a time is a huge mistake. Mule tape ties to ONE head. The rest are taped/tied/whatever to that one. You can buy special tools from Rack-a-Tiers for this but everyone tapes that I know. Also I do have a couple fish headz and those pulling socks are awesome if you have the right size.
2. Mule tape, jet line, pulling rope, fiberglass fish tape. Whatever works. I prefer mule tape but I’ve used them all. I don’t like tearing up my fish but on light rubs it won’t hurt it and saves time pulling in mule tape.
3 I don’t use one. It doesn’t seem to make much difference with mule tape. On pulling rope it makes more sense.
4. Code issue. You wouldn’t be in this mess if it was done right.
5. See item #1 plus multiple posts repeating ONE PULL. I really don’t care that you only have 10,000 foot spools for each color. Lay it out on the ground, up the stairs, out the door, through a window, whatever it takes. The math says it’s possible IF you do it right. Some guys like to bundle and tape. To me that’s just more friction and more stuff to snag.!I’ll prove it. Read on.

I’m confused. Post #1 said 6 conductors. Now it sounds like 2x8 = 16 conductors. Good thing I saved this.

Ok so pulls with 16 conductors are now:
First leg 100+90: 9 pounds
Next 100: 22 pounds
Next 100: 40 pounds
Next 50: 59 pounds
Next 50: 86 pounds
Next 50: 123 pounds
Next 50: 173 pounds
Total: 504 pounds. Better have that Pullzall. I wrote out each leg so you can see how quickly the pull force jumps from each successive bend.

If you try to do them individually though then you no longer have the 0.2 coefficient of friction. It jumps to 0.4. This is an exponent. You’ll need 6558 pounds of pull on the last pull so better rent a 10k puller and switch to #10 aluminum. It can still be done but I was thinking you wanted to stick with #14 copper. Aluminum is currently much cheaper and XHHW has a lower coefficient of friction so it’s not a totally bad idea.


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## bill39 (Sep 4, 2009)

Mack Koelle said:


> 1. We are pulling in 2 at a time, if we can. Mule tape is tied and taped to head on each pull for next pull.
> 2. Mule tape
> 3. No swivel. Great idea though! Problem is the mule tape tag line following our line through for the next pull is wrapping
> 4. No pull boxes.
> 5. Somewhere in the ballpark of 8 pulls in same conduit (problem probably lies there)


 A swivel should ALWAYS be used on wire pulls of any size. You may need to put it all out, use a swivel and start over.

No way in hell will you ever do 8 separate pulls. Not happening, so figure out what plan B is.

The ONLY way I see this working is to cut every cable to lentgh (plus 10:15%) on the ground and pull them in all at once. Use gallons of lube and plenty of manpower, sheaves, & a power puller.

Somebody [email protected]*ked ip big time on this design & they may need to eat it.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

So electricians ran the pipe. You say more than 360 degrees, how much more? If I was on a job were the electricians put conduit in that was not to code, they would be changing it. I’d be in the GC face about the shoddy work. Make sure on the total bends, count kicks and offsets too. Then let them have both barrels!


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## bill39 (Sep 4, 2009)

bill39 said:


> A swivel should ALWAYS be used on wire pulls of any size. You may need to put it all out, use a swivel and start over.
> 
> No way in hell will you ever do 8 separate pulls. Not happening, so figure out what plan B is.
> 
> ...


As “backstay” stated have someone redo the conduit run so it has less than 360 degrees of bends. Install oversized J-boxes to eliminate a 90 or two.

One thing I haven’t seen mentioned or questioned is the conduit fill within code compliance? I would want it to be considerably under the max fill amount.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

I've been down this road before. The suits just kept sending us back to pull more cables every couple of months because they didn't figure out all the new fangled systems they could have if they only had more fiber cable capacity. It was all force account change order after the first pulls thru the manholes so the price kept rising every time I got asked to do more. Fiber tested on the spool, before the pull, and after the pulls. We only lost two fibers out of close to a hundred in total . FAA kept adding more access doors and more camera's to the job, along with the State asking for various other things like FIDS backbones and AOCS backbones to my contract. We did the multi pulls thru the same conduits over and over. I used CO2 Jetline system to get the pull strings thru followed by mule tape and then pulling rope. Can be done but with much aggravation. And....... On the Diamond Head end of the main airport the manholes were always filled to the top with water mixed with jetfuel that had to be pumped out using tanker trucks first and then clearing the residual gasses out with ventilation pumps and then fish, and then pull ropes, and then pull fiber cables. Honestly I was sick of industrial work after 5 years of that and running only IMC and Rigid pipe and gladly returned my operation to drilling holes in 2x4's and pull romex all day for a living......... Nicer Scenery. I still have some of the jetline stuff around my shop, I moved that 4 inch rubber "gun" out of the way yesterday so I could get to my Ensley knock out case out of a gang box cause my greenlee pump needs some work done on it.... All my tools are ancient.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Mack Koelle said:


> Well, all the conduit runs were put in place by union electricians, and i dont think they had their A-team on it. More than 360 degrees of bends


What did the specifications say for this conduit run that the union electricians ran?


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

sometimes a project just goes all to heck, and there’s nothing you can do about it. Seeing as you’re the least senior person there – I would just show up do what I’m told and go home and pray that one day it will all be over.

Honestly, when it was discovered more than 360° from beginning to end, a pull box or condulet it should have it been installed first. Too late now I suppose. Your foreman screwed the pooch and it sounds like your entire project has already jumped the shark.

Good luck to you pal.

Peace out


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

macmikeman said:


> I've been down this road before. The suits just kept sending us back to pull more cables every couple of months because they didn't figure out all the new fangled systems they could have if they only had more fiber cable capacity. It was all force account change order after the first pulls thru the manholes so the price kept rising every time I got asked to do more. Fiber tested on the spool, before the pull, and after the pulls. We only lost two fibers out of close to a hundred in total . FAA kept adding more access doors and more camera's to the job, along with the State asking for various other things like FIDS backbones and AOCS backbones to my contract. We did the multi pulls thru the same conduits over and over. I used CO2 Jetline system to get the pull strings thru followed by mule tape and then pulling rope. Can be done but with much aggravation. And....... On the Diamond Head end of the main airport the manholes were always filled to the top with water mixed with jetfuel that had to be pumped out using tanker trucks first and then clearing the residual gasses out with ventilation pumps and then fish, and then pull ropes, and then pull fiber cables. Honestly I was sick of industrial work after 5 years of that and running only IMC and Rigid pipe and gladly returned my operation to drilling holes in 2x4's and pull romex all day for a living......... Nicer Scenery. I still have some of the jetline stuff around my shop, I moved that 4 inch rubber "gun" out of the way yesterday so I could get to my Ensley knock out case out of a gang box cause my greenlee pump needs some work done on it.... All my tools are ancient.
> [/QUOTE





backstay said:


> So electricians ran the pipe. You say more than 360 degrees, how much more? If I was on a job were the electricians put conduit in that was not to code, they would be changing it. I’d be in the GC face about the shoddy work. Make sure on the total bends, count kicks and offsets too. Then let them have both barrels!


 Well this is for some digital electricity type thing not power and lighting as far as I know right? Maybe the electricians thought this was CAT5 data or some thing in there for that 360° requirement although physics requires it, the code wouldn’t.


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

LGLS said:


> Well this is for some digital electricity type thing not power and lighting as far as I know right? Maybe the electricians thought this was CAT5 data or some thing in there for that 360° requirement although* physics requires it*, the code wouldn’t.


You would think a well trained electrician or supervisor would know this. 

The LV guys screwed up by trying to pull in the wire. They should have hired the "electricians" to pull it in.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

oldsparky52 said:


> You would think a well trained electrician or supervisor would know this.
> 
> The LV guys screwed up by trying to pull in the wire. They should have hired the "electricians" to pull it in.


yep .... that would have worked really well when they put the 2000lb tugger on it LOL

poor "union electricians" would have to redo the run of rigid as well as the wire
and since it was one piece 2,000 ft long ...
that will be an enormously expensive redo


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Since when is LV not covered by the NEC? 360 degrees is in every type of conduit. Articles 342, 344, 348, 350, 353, 354, 355, 356, and 358. Nowhere do I see an exception for whats inside.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

backstay said:


> Since when is LV not covered by the NEC? 360 degrees is in every type of conduit. Articles 342, 344, 348, 350, 353, 354, 355, 356, and 358. Nowhere do I see an exception for whats inside.


Hey listen Dash maybe the union electricians in the union contractor that installed the conduit for the low-voltage contractor Dash knew that the winning bid went to a nonunion contractor and therefore screwed up the installation to jam them up on purpose. Of course, this could’ve occurred whether or not the winning contractor was union or not. All I know is this Dash I have never seen a stadium go up that did not have a very comprehensive specifications, and not only would it have been a code violation to not have a pool point and more than 360° a Benz but it would probably also violated the contract. If this is the case and (this guy who is at the bottom of the totem pole in the pyramid of power … he is not even in Egypt… original poster) as well as is the least senior person on the crew, well let’s just say this is what I’m seeing:

The OP is new on this job, new to the company, they’re having trouble with the cable pole and he’s coming here to get solutions because he doesn’t have any, and wants to take what we know back to the job and impress people with it. Now not for nothing but an apprentice on a union job would never do such a thing because they’re not expected to figure this crap out, and apparently the OP believes that he is expected to figure this out or thinks that if he does figure it out or they think that he’s figured it out he can better his lot. Honestly I’m not wasting my time helping him anymore -not because I am invariably helping a nonunion low-voltage contractor that hires inexperienced people and screws up cable pulls By doing everything wrong or thinking that they can cheat the laws of physics… But because it is more than most likely nobody is going to listen to him no matter what we tell him anyway.


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## LARMGUY (Aug 22, 2010)

SWDweller said:


> The LV contractor got the job and decided to since it was all exposed and mostly straight they could "get r done". They even used set screw couplings and could not understand why the vacuums would not pull a bird 500 feet with 4" EMT. Ended up using masking tape on all of the joints. Mostly guys from manpower when the conduit was going up.


Frikkin sales guys didn't include the "Make it work" option in their quote.


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## MotoGP1199 (Aug 11, 2014)

backstay said:


> Since when is LV not covered by the NEC? 360 degrees is in every type of conduit. Articles 342, 344, 348, 350, 353, 354, 355, 356, and 358. Nowhere do I see an exception for whats inside.


As I understand it Chapter 8 (communication cable) doesn't follow chapter 3 rules unless specifically referenced. And I don't see them reference 358 anywhere in chapter 8. So it may depend on what type of LV cables they are. That being said you would still have to follow manufacturers installation instructions and job specs.

I would still limit the bends to 360* myself.



> 90.3  Code Arrangement.  This Code is divided into the introduction and nine chapters, as shown in Figure 90.3. Chapters 1, 2, 3, and 4 apply generally. Chapters 5, 6, and 7 apply to special occupancies, special equipment, or other special conditions and may supplement or modify the requirements in Chapters 1 through 7.
> *Chapter 8 covers communications systems and is not subject to the requirements of Chapters 1 through 7 except where the requirements are specifically referenced in Chapter 8. *Chapter 9 consists of tables that are applicable as referenced. Informative annexes are not part of the requirements of this Code but are included for informational purposes only.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

MotoGP1199 said:


> As I understand it Chapter 8 (communication cable) doesn't follow chapter 3 rules unless specifically referenced. And I don't see them reference 358 anywhere in chapter 8. So it may depend on what type of LV cables they are. That being said you would still have to follow manufacturers installation instructions and job specs.
> 
> I would still limit the bends to 360* myself.


This is true, I think this stuff is probably actually chapter 7 / class 2 but you're not required to use a chapter 3 wiring method. However chapter 7 doesn't give you a total free pass, there are still listing requirements for class 2 cables etc. 

But there is nothing in chapter 7 which gives you a pass on the laws of physics


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

800.110 Raceways, Cable Routing Assemblies, and Cable Trays.




(A) Types of Raceways.



Wires and cables shall be permitted to be installed in raceways that comply with either 800.110(A)(1) or (A)(2). Medium-power network-powered broadband communications cables shall not be permitted to be installed in raceways that comply with 800.110(A)(2).
(1) Raceways Recognized in Chapter 3.



*Wires and cables shall be permitted to be installed in any raceway included in Chapter 3. The raceways shall be installed in accordance with the requirements of Chapter 3.*


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## Slay301 (Apr 23, 2018)

You know what’s crazy is? I have never seen a rat run conduit shitty. I swear they are some of the best


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## MotoGP1199 (Aug 11, 2014)

backstay said:


> 800.110 Raceways, Cable Routing Assemblies, and Cable Trays.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Good catch. I stand corrected. Shows how much I read through chapter 8. Haha


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

MotoGP1199 said:


> Good catch. I stand corrected. Shows how much I read through chapter 8. Haha


Same here.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

backstay said:


> 800.110 Raceways, Cable Routing Assemblies, and Cable Trays.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Although datacom people are installing it, and although it may be powering datacom equipment, this isn't communications circuits, it's low voltage limited power, chapter 7 applies rather than chapter 8.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

MotoGP1199 said:


> As I understand it Chapter 8 (communication cable) doesn't follow chapter 3 rules unless specifically referenced. And I don't see them reference 358 anywhere in chapter 8. So it may depend on what type of LV cables they are. That being said you would still have to follow manufacturers installation instructions and job specs.
> 
> I would still limit the bends to 360* myself.


I am not about to search back through 36 posts, but did the OP ever mention the size of this conduit? Because eight cables, with what 14 conductors in each? 112 ccc’s Sounds pretty dicey.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Slay301 said:


> You know what’s crazy is? I have never seen a rat run conduit shitty. I swear they are some of the best


Please don’t call them rats. They’re just trying to put food on the table and keep a roof over their heads just like everyone else.

Often times, nonunion workers produce a substandard product not because they are in capable, or don’t care. It’s more likely that their contractor has not given them enough time, material, or the proper tools Dash direction Dash training to get the job done properly.

It is very easy for us all to just let the **** roll downhill… Because at the bottom of that hill lies the lowly employee who is absolutely defenseless against it all… And can’t fight back. But before you blame any worker for doing a crappy job, and call them a rat… Walk a mile in their shoes.

When I worked nonunion, I had to install 1 inch EMT, and was given only two three-quarter inch galvanized bending hickeys and told there were no benders available just make it work.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

splatz said:


> Although datacom people are installing it, and although it may be powering datacom equipment, this isn't communications circuits, it's low voltage limited power, chapter 7 applies rather than chapter 8.


Well then what the heck is this low-voltage limited power doing anyway? What’s it being used for?

I’m thinking, this is for some type of illuminated display such as the led panels between the lower deck and the upper deck of many stadiums, and it is totally a subcontract for its installation maintenance upkeep and even running the darn thing… Or maybe this is the scoreboard subcontractor who is responsible for everything in regards to the scoreboard including powering it.


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## Slay301 (Apr 23, 2018)

LGLS said:


> Please don’t call them rats. They’re just trying to put food on the table and keep a roof over their heads just like everyone else.
> 
> Often times, nonunion workers produce a substandard product not because they are in capable, or don’t care. It’s more likely that their contractor has not given them enough time, material, or the proper tools Dash direction Dash training to get the job done properly.
> 
> ...


Again it was just a reaction to what was said about union members thus proving a point


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

Mack Koelle said:


> Hello all,
> 
> I’m seeking advice on pulling multiple lines through large conduit runs. Here’s the situation:
> 
> ...


You got some good advice here. 
1. They should of made the pipe right before ANYONE pulled wire.
2. Overpulls/multi times. are to be avoided at all costs on new pulls.
3. Long runs take skill to pull.
4. You said your wire is more flexible than 00, that is a hurt not a help you have no push at that point.
5. As said the first pulls are going to lay in the way that gravity leaves them in the conduit, your mule tape is burried and will cause tangles inside.

You said you are low man, just let the higher ups figure this one out and keep it in mind next time you are in this boat.


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## seelite (Aug 24, 2009)

sounds like a lot of malarky, BUT if for real, and my company I would fire
1- whoever did plan review, 2- my estimator, and last I would never again bid a job designed by this engineer. "Yesterday I couldn't even spell ENJINEAR but today I are won". Sounds like some Masters are NOT staying on top of the Journeymen, or the firm only hires Apprentices.


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