# Crimp sleeves



## matt1124 (Aug 23, 2011)

You guys ever use these? How do you crimp them? On the back it states to crimp them using a GCP-5000A, which is nearly impossible to find seems like. I have the tool finally after talking with GB about it a bit, and this is what they look like crimped properly, never seen that in the field, thats for sure.


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## matt1124 (Aug 23, 2011)

More


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Always known them as Buchanan crimps, been around a very long time.


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## electricguy (Mar 22, 2007)

I use a stay con tool from T&B


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Always known them as Buchanan crimps, been around a very long time.


This is the correct tool but, they are rare jut due to the inconvenient large size. I've seen everything used to crimp them including, and mostly, the built in crimper on a pair of linemans.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Always known them as Buchanan crimps, been around a very long time.


I've always thought of Buchanan caps as the crimp type with the rubber wrap around and sometimes, the red little crown that goes over the top.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Suncoast Power said:


> This is the correct tool but, they are rare jut due to the inconvenient large size. I've seen everything used to crimp them including, and mostly, the built in crimper on a pair of linemans.


Never thought of using linemans, I gues sbecause when I first used them the tool was there with them.

The crimper fits in an apron pocket or back pants pocket.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Suncoast Power said:


> I've always thought of Buchanan caps as the crimp type with the rubber wrap around and sometimes, the red little crown that goes over the top.


Hmm, maybe it's an area jargon thing, haven't seen the rubber caps in the northeast.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

I came up in Va Beach working for assorted Hack Electric contractors. In the early 70's, we used them and I was shown to twist the grounds tight together, then cut off all but one (or two if you needed them) ground, slide the crimp sleeve over it and crimp it as tight as you can using the tips of the linesman pliers (this was before they put that crimp tool in the linesman).

I know now that I was taught incorrectly, but I don't think anyone ever had a problem with the grounds. 

I've never heard or seen anyone using a "proper" crimp tool for these (unless you call the crimp tool on the linesman pliers to be "proper"). I don't know if the linesman crimp area is listed for use as crimp sleeve tool, but it appears to me to work just fine for that purpose and I would not hesitate to use it for that.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Buchanans are still Buchanans except Ideal bought Buchanan. 

http://idealind.com/us/en/products/wire-termination/60-crimp-connectors/crimp-connectors.aspx

I might be the only person on the planet that gave a rats tar star but I bought an Ideal linemans and buy Ideal crimp sleeves because the label on Ideal crimp sleeves specify that tool, making it fully compliant with their listing and legal to crimp sleeves with them.  

Others may disagree but I have stopped using them for the most part. Once in a while one of the wires comes loose. I start using them again with the four-way crimper, the Ideal C42, but haven't felt like putting out $65 for one yet. 

Incidentally the Ideal linemans is nice but at $40 I should have just shelled out for the best tool for the job.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

I haven't used one in 20 years. There are 0 places where these work that a wirenut doesn't. There are a couple of instances where the crimps are more convenient, but not so much that I justify buying them and loosing them in the truck.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

RePhase277 said:


> *I haven't used one in 20 years.* There are 0 places where these work that a wirenut doesn't. There are a couple of instances where the crimps are more convenient, but not so much that I justify buying them and loosing them in the truck.


Yup, that's about the time frame that pops in my mind. I agree with you on the rest of the post as well.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

RePhase277 said:


> I haven't used one in 20 years. *There are 0 places where these work that a wirenut doesn't.* There are a couple of instances where the crimps are more convenient, but not so much that I justify buying them and loosing them in the truck.


But 50% of the time they are way more convenient. 

A) They are much smaller than a wire nut so if space is tight they help.
B) In multi-gang boxes you leave out as many tails as there are devices. Each device gets it own tail with no extra splicing.

I use the steel ones from Ideal (or whoever). The instructions say to crimp with a Sta-Con style crimper, or the crimper built into linemans (which is what I use). I typically don't lose them because I keep them in a specific spot in a drawer.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

I use them on every single motor connection we do. They intimidate the maintenance guy a bit and they just don't fail very often. 
If I did new homes I would use them for the grounds to make the stupid assed pigtails to a ll switches that we have to do now. One of the more idiotic codes out there.

This is what I use. 
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Ideal-4-...PiidhM5a_aYw8060ujXTMRoCvBzw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds


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## daveEM (Nov 18, 2012)

I used them in 1969. Still have the 4 point tool. Actually I think they are around $100 on Amazon. Still mine is old if I can find it.

*Edit:* As listed by @sbrn33 - $62 at HD.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

sbrn33 said:


> I use them on every single motor connection we do. They intimidate the maintenance guy a bit and they just don't fail very often.
> If I did new homes I would use them for the grounds to make the stupid assed pigtails to a ll switches that we have to do now. One of the more idiotic codes out there.


I figure I am going to buy the C24 soon to try out for places I don't have the usual confidence in a wire nut, motors and electric heat thermostats come to mind. 

The bigger sleeves don't list the lineman's pliers on the instructions. 



> This is what I use.
> http://www.homedepot.com/p/Ideal-4-...PiidhM5a_aYw8060ujXTMRoCvBzw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

Speedy Petey said:


> But 50% of the time they are way more convenient.
> 
> A) They are much smaller than a wire nut so if space is tight they help.
> B) In multi-gang boxes you leave out as many tails as there are devices. Each device gets it own tail with no extra splicing.


That's the situation where they are more convenient.

I suppose if all I did was new houses, I might use them more. Now that I think about, that's when I carried them, wiring new houses. Since I avoid that like the plague these days, I don't have much use for them. Just another thing to get lost in the rolling explosion I call a van.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

sbrn33 said:


> I use them on every single motor connection we do. They intimidate the maintenance guy a bit and they just don't fail very often.
> If I did new homes I would use them for the grounds to make the stupid assed pigtails to a ll switches that we have to do now. One of the more idiotic codes out there.


I like the insulated Ideal splice caps for motor leads.


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## bill39 (Sep 4, 2009)

I haven't used them since 1976 when I went to work for a certain contractor as an apprentice. The new guys I started working with just laughed when I said the previous contractors I worked for did use them.

I believe the ones we used were made by T&B and were called PT70's & PT70-M. We crimped them using an original T&B Sta-con tool.

I hate 'em as you cannot easily disconnect them. Have to cut them. These just bring back bad memories.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

bill39 said:


> I haven't used them since 1976 when I went to work for a certain contractor as an apprentice. The new guys I started working with just laughed when I said the previous contractors I worked for did use them.
> 
> I believe the ones we used were made by T&B and were called PT70's & PT70-M. We crimped them using an original T&B Sta-con tool.
> 
> I hate 'em as you cannot easily disconnect them. Have to cut them. These just bring back bad memories.


How often would you have to remove them?


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

MechanicalDVR said:


> How often would you have to remove them?


That's my stock reply to that statement. 

And if you need to add a wire, just add another crimp. :thumbsup:


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## bill39 (Sep 4, 2009)

MechanicalDVR said:


> How often would you have to remove them?


We'd do a lot of service work and when going back to troubleshoot or add something to a circuit it would be necessary to to cut it off. Wirenuts are much quicker.


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## bill39 (Sep 4, 2009)

Speedy Petey said:


> That's my stock reply to that statement.
> 
> And if you need to add a wire, just add another crimp. :thumbsup:


Not trying to be a wisea$$ but how do you add another wire without cutting all of the wires and re-stripping them? That was always a pain in the butt and time consuming.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

bill39 said:


> We'd do a lot of service work and when going back to troubleshoot or add something to a circuit it would be necessary to to cut it off. *Wirenuts are much quicker.*


I've been using crimps for over 20 years now exclusively. I can tell you this is just not so. And the whole _"going back later and having to remove"_ them is such a non-issue it's not funny.


Let me ask you then. If you have a plastic 4-gang switch box, with let's say six cables entering. How do you make up and terminate the grounds?


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

bill39 said:


> Not trying to be a wisea$$ but how do you add another wire without cutting all of the wires and re-stripping them? That was always a pain in the butt and time consuming.


Well, we're talking about grounds, right. So not sure what you mean about re-stripping them. 

I straighten the loop at the ends, add another ground wire twisted to the bundle, and add another crimp in front of the existing one.


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## bill39 (Sep 4, 2009)

Speedy Petey said:


> I've been using crimps for over 20 years now exclusively. I can tell you this is just not so. And the whole _"going back later and having to remove"_ them is such a non-issue it's not funny.
> 
> 
> Let me ask you then. If you have a plastic 4-gang switch box, with let's say six cables entering. How do you make up and terminate the grounds?


To each their own. Let's just agree to disagree.


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

Ordinarily not that big a deal that crimp has to be added to or cut off

But I often take boxes out of the wall, either to add more gangs or fish a NM, cutting off the crimp sleeve leaves way not-enough length

Except for the ones that were squeezed flat with pliers instead of crimped, just squeeze the other direction and it will open up


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## lightman (Oct 14, 2015)

I first knew these to be marketed under the Buchanan name and they made a 4 point crimping tool for these. I always thought they made a better splice on stranded wire than a wirenut. Not so much on solid wire. In later years I discovered that the white plastic cover would deteriorate over time and cause problems if used on hot wires. To remove the crimp you just squeeze it with your linemans twice at 90º apart and it will slip right off.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

Speedy Petey said:


> Let me ask you then. If you have a plastic 4-gang switch box, with let's say six cables entering. How do you make up and terminate the grounds?


I twist my grounds and add a long pigtail, secure with a wirenut. The pigtail is long enough to loop on every switch. Sometimes, if I happen to see them in my truck, I'll use a greenie wirenut and leave a long pigtail through that.

I'm not arguing against the crimp. This situation is ideal for them. It's just something that is literally never a problem for me when using wirenuts though. I've never left a job incomplete because I didn't have some crimp sleeves.


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## matt1124 (Aug 23, 2011)

I've never been a fan of greenies. Whole houses around here were crimped in the 70s, even the hots, and just taped. Still holding strong, where a greenie will pop right off grounds from time to time.


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## Anathera (Feb 16, 2016)

I double over however many wires I need smash that loop flat and twist it in the cut and wirenut at least if I did the rough in, goes pretty quick


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Suncoast Power said:


> This is the correct tool but, they are rare jut due to the inconvenient large size. I've seen everything used to crimp them including, and mostly, the built in crimper on a pair of linemans.


INCORRECT. unless you are using Buchannin (sp) which is a company that demands that you use the 4 point crimper tool. I have no idea what GB specs for the right tool for their tube , because I won't buy anything they make except for those adorable cute 1/2'' emt benders with the bubble level.......


Thomas and Betts Stakon's require you to use the single point crimper. If you use a 4 point on a Stakon, you violate the listing and therefore you have used the wrong tool for the job.


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## matt1124 (Aug 23, 2011)

macmikeman said:


> INCORRECT. unless you are using Buchannin (sp) which is a company that demands that you use the 4 point crimper tool. I have no idea what GB specs for the right tool for their tube , because I won't buy anything they make except for those adorable cute 1/2'' emt benders with the bubble level.......
> 
> 
> Thomas and Betts Stakon's require you to use the single point crimper. If you use a 4 point on a Stakon, you violate the listing and therefore you have used the wrong tool for the job.


GB is what they have at Home Depot, so they are easy to grab, so that's what I get.

GB package says to crimp them with a tool that apparently doesn't exist, GCP-5000A. I called them out on not being able to source it and they suggested I use the crimper like the one you find in the automotive department of walmart. :001_huh: I told them that would violate the UL listing to crimp it with something other than what's on the label and they sent me a crimp tool I wasn't able to find local or online AT ALL. For free! :thumbsup: It has no markings whatsoever on it, so they took a label maker and made a label that reads "GCP-5000A" and affixed it to the handle.


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## daveEM (Nov 18, 2012)

matt1124 said:


> and they sent me a crimp tool I wasn't able to find local or online AT ALL. For free! :thumbsup: It has no markings whatsoever on it, so they took a label maker and made a label that reads "GCP-5000A" and affixed it to the handle.


Can we have a hi-res pic of that tool? What does the real worl crimp look like?


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

matt1124 said:


> I've never been a fan of greenies. Whole houses around here were crimped in the 70s, even the hots, and just taped. Still holding strong, where a greenie will pop right off grounds from time to time.


I have not seen this around here, but this is the kind of thing I like to hear about, how things hold up over time. @matt1124, If you haven't come across any bad connections with those that's something to think about. 

I'd be interested to have a look at those old crimps and see if they were made with the 4-point tool, the crimp tool on linemans, or just mashed with a pliers.


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## scotch (Oct 17, 2013)

Years ago as a UK apprentice we used same crimp-ons all the time in industrial complex electrical work . Now overseas you mainly see the screw barrel type ; which you can get here as well . Marettes....they're still laughing at those ....because it's so easy to instal them wrong ....with severe consequences sometimes . i.e. safety devices !


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

I guarantee that no one has ever sifted through a pile of charred ruble to find the cause was a failed crimp, then tracked down the brand of crimp, found the tool specification, then found the electrical contractor's employee that put on that exact crimp and checked his crimp tool for compliance. It's one of those things an engineer dreams up as maybe being a potential problem.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

RePhase277 said:


> I guarantee that no one has ever sifted through a pile of charred ruble to find the cause was a failed crimp, then tracked down the brand of crimp, found the tool specification, then found the electrical contractor's employee that put on that exact crimp and checked his crimp tool for compliance. It's one of those things an engineer dreams up as maybe being a potential problem.


But being the fan of CSI that I am, the tool marks would give you away. A typical crimp tool would leave one detent, as opposed to the proper 4 jaw tool leaving 4. The plier 'crush' method would be overly obvious.


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## matt1124 (Aug 23, 2011)

splatz said:


> I have not seen this around here, but this is the kind of thing I like to hear about, how things hold up over time. @matt1124, If you haven't come across any bad connections with those that's something to think about.
> 
> I'd be interested to have a look at those old crimps and see if they were made with the 4-point tool, the crimp tool on linemans, or just mashed with a pliers.


I am usually pretty impressed with them. The ones that come to mind have always been a 4-point crimp. One of my rent houses is full of them. They all have the little plastic cap.

The problem I've seen with them is that tenants (used to) love 100W incandescent bulbs and they would get that kitchen drum fixture so hot that over time (years, since these caps have to be original) the caps become brittle and break off, leaving an exposed connection. At that point it gets cut off and a wire nut goes on.



daveEM said:


> Can we have a hi-res pic of that tool? What does the real worl crimp look like?


The GB tool I got the other day makes crimps like the picture in the second post. I'll take a couple pics of the tool for you. I asked at Elliot today if they could get them and they don't have them either. It is strange to me they tell you to use a tool you can't buy from a supply house.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

matt1124 said:


> I am usually pretty impressed with them. The ones that come to mind have always been a 4-point crimp. One of my rent houses is full of them. They all have the little plastic cap.
> 
> The problem I've seen with them is that tenants (used to) love 100W incandescent bulbs and they would get that kitchen drum fixture so hot that over time (years, since these caps have to be original) the caps become brittle and break off, leaving an exposed connection. At that point it gets cut off and a wire nut goes on.
> 
> ...


Reminds me a lot of an ACOE contract where the designer found some spec in a catalogue that he found on a shelf someplace and added it into a bid spec cause he liked it.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

Years ago I went to a job where a building owner was concerned about some issues. One of the items was several junction boxes above a mezzanine with no covers. He wanted the splices checked and covers put on. When I pulled the splices out, I found that they had been twisted, crimped and then soldered.

When I told the boss what I found, he asked if I cut them loose and replaced "that mess" with wirenuts. Nope. Just put covers on. Why not, he asked. Because a wirenut would be a downgrade. Next to a continuous conductor, those splices were as solid as they possibly could be.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

MechanicalDVR said:


> But being the fan of CSI that I am, the tool marks would give you away. A typical crimp tool would leave one detent, as opposed to the proper 4 jaw tool leaving 4. The plier 'crush' method would be overly obvious.


I have no doubt that a laboratory could do it. I'm just confident it has never, and likely will never, happen in real life. It's possible to go skinny dipping in a pair of flip flops on the moon into a boiling tub of liquid helium, but it will never come to pass.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

bill39 said:


> To each their own. Let's just agree to disagree.


Hard to disagree until you answer his original question. Are you putting 10 12's or 14's in a wire connector?


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## bill39 (Sep 4, 2009)

sbrn33 said:


> Hard to disagree until you answer his original question. Are you putting 10 12's or 14's in a wire connector?


It was usually #12's & #14's.
One other comment. Often times whoever installed the original PT70's didn't leave the wires in the ceiling box very long and it took some doing to install another one after cutting off the original PT70.

I'm out on this one. :no:


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

bill39 said:


> It was usually #12's & #14's.
> One other comment. Often times whoever installed the original PT70's didn't leave the wires in the ceiling box very long and it took some doing to install another one after cutting off the original PT70.
> 
> I'm out on this one. :no:


I can see your point when the guy before you left 2" of wire to work with. 

The first time I helped a friend with electrical work at his house with a room he was remodeling the guy that put the devices in must have connected each device and then pulled the slack to the outside of the box. I couldn't pull the devices out of the boxes at all, the wiring held them tight to the box.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

bill39 said:


> It was usually #12's & #14's.
> One other comment. Often times whoever installed the original PT70's didn't leave the wires in the ceiling box very long and it took some doing to install another one after cutting off the original PT70.
> 
> I'm out on this one. :no:


So you put 10 wire in one connector?


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## Tonedeaf (Nov 26, 2012)

i use my craftsman crimp tool

https://www.craftsman.com/products/craftsman-wire-cutter-stripper-and-crimper-pliers-up-front-awg-wire

....I bought these crimpers a few years ago at Kmart when i lost the ones i had for years. They don't hurt you hand when you squeeze.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Having seen so many of the Buchanan crimps in place for extended periods without failure I'd stick with the 4 point crimp tool and forget trying other types of tools, just sticking with what works well. 

I do use the crimp die in lineman's for plastic covered 10ga butt splice caps with good results.


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## foothillselectrical (Mar 17, 2013)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Hmm, maybe it's an area jargon thing, haven't seen the rubber caps in the northeast.


I've always known these as "crimp sleeves and diapers" and either crimped them with T&B's or the built in Klein crimper.


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## foothillselectrical (Mar 17, 2013)

I used these exclusively for my grounds when I did resi work, for reasons mentioned by others. And if I had to get back into that connection I could remove the crimp sleeves nearly as fast as a wirenut, and not cut the wires at all. In fact, I've never had to shorten the wire to remove a crimp sleeve.
I started using these 25 years ago when I cut my teeth in industrial wiring, and we could replace a motor that had turned 50 shades of black from overheating, and the terminations were still solid. IMHO, these these maintain a much better connection than wirenuts when exposed to a terminations heating and cooling cycles.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

MechanicalDVR said:


> I can see your point when the guy before you left 2" of wire to work with.
> 
> The first time I helped a friend with electrical work at his house with a room he was remodeling the guy that put the devices in must have connected each device and then pulled the slack to the outside of the box. I couldn't pull the devices out of the boxes at all, the wiring held them tight to the box.


All that effort on his part -- to make the next guy's troubles great.


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## mdnitedrftr (Aug 21, 2013)

I'm surprised these aren't as common as I thought they were. 

Crimp sleeve are all we use in houses. They take up less space in the box, and if I need to service something down the line, I can pop them off quickly. I always use the crimper on my linesmans. Never had a problem.


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## foothillselectrical (Mar 17, 2013)

mdnitedrftr said:


> I'm surprised these aren't as common as I thought they were.
> 
> Crimp sleeve are all we use in houses. They take up less space in the box, and if I need to service something down the line, I can pop them off quickly. I always use the crimper on my linesmans. Never had a problem.


Yeah, I was really shocked to see this much discussion on them. I just thought they were more commonly used.


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## GDS (Feb 20, 2017)

I have used these on the ground wires for years. I have always used the crimper on my pliers however the tool that Bucanun sells does a much better job. These are still used by many electricians in the northeast. Some inspectors will check and make sure you are using the tool recommended by the manufacturer.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Ever since Hax left me a full size jar of lever nuts at the feet of the King Kam statue last summer, I have given up on pt170's for lever nuts for my grounds instead. I still don't know what they cost though since you can't buy them anyplace around here.


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## scotch (Oct 17, 2013)

Well if you twist the wires first....like you were taught as an apprentice ...the crimp-on sleeve just stops them untwisting .....if the earth reverses rotation !


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## scotch (Oct 17, 2013)

Of course I'm lucky not having had to be a residential sparky ...and having to work to a price point....Industrial until I became a part-time guy on commercial maintenance .
But I stare in disbelief at the 12 grounds under a huge marette stuff...I still carry some ground bars for that kind of mess.


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