# Wtf is this?



## hydro (Aug 21, 2009)

I'm working on cleaning out sheds at my buddies dads place. He was an electrician, a plumber and heating guy. Pretty interesting dude. Even built high voltage power lines. He had everything in these sheds. Lots of it is still useful, also had a bunch of really cool old equipment. Breakers, fuse panels, old fittings lots of cool stuff. Anyways, found these. Any clue?


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## Mshow1323 (Jun 9, 2012)

Maybe a old timers amp reader. I'm sure somebody smarter and much much older will chime in shortly with a better answer.


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

Mshow1323 said:


> .......


Well said....:laughing:


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## hydro (Aug 21, 2009)

My buddy seems to remember them bolted under the dash of his dads trucks. Maybe like a power inverter


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## 8V71 (Dec 23, 2011)

hydro said:


> My buddy seems to remember them bolted under the dash of his dads trucks. Maybe like a power inverter


That's what it is but only good for universal motors like a drill or something since it's a DC output. Here is a different brand on e-bay.

ETA: or resistance loads like a heater.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ANES-E-Z-PO...-Generator-12VDC-110VDC-Vintage-/221243293265


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## 8V71 (Dec 23, 2011)

It sez that you can get between 12 and 300 volts out by revving the engine.  :laughing:


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## Somewhere_401 (Apr 7, 2014)

Mshow1323 said:


> Maybe a old timers amp reader. I'm sure somebody smarter and much much older will chime in shortly with a better answer.


--

Many old timers I know don't like computers that much, and would not be trolling sites like these :whistling2:

Pretty interesting how things were done in the past, and how they just made it work. Now we have to have ULc CSA etc. on everything, or else WSIB or OSHA will have a fit....


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## Jhellwig (Jun 18, 2014)

So that explains why there are a few tool makers that make stuff that also takes 120 volt DC. I never knew why they made those. Must predate battery powered tools.


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## AK_sparky (Aug 13, 2013)

Jhellwig said:


> So that explains why there are a few tool makers that make stuff that also takes 120 volt DC. I never knew why they made those. Must predate battery powered tools.


Lincoln SA200 portable welder also has a DC output. It is nice to know that your grinder or drill or whatever won't have any issues on DC.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

8V71 said:


> It sez that you can get between 12 and 300 volts out by revving the engine.  :laughing:


 That's for if you're running a really big hole saw. :laughing:

Had that one the other day, trying to start a big piece of equipment on a 208V test supply and the starting current was bogging the supply way down. The guy running the power supply says dead serious: _"Well, let's crank it up to 400V to overcome the voltage drop!"_ How about we don't do that....


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## fdew (Mar 26, 2009)

Kohler made light plants (generators) designed to run a farm, not as a backup but as the only power. 120 VAC was available but 120 DC was also offered at a lower cost. What tended to drive the AC choice was a well pump and the refrigerator. BTW they were automatic (on demand) start and stop.


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## retiredsparktech (Mar 8, 2011)

Mshow1323 said:


> Maybe a old timers amp reader. I'm sure somebody smarter and much much older will chime in shortly with a better answer.


 They sold those as kits. The diagram showed where you cut into the alternator wiring and ran the alternator full-field. Of course, the alternator had to have a separate regulator and was capable of putting out over 120 VDC at a higher engine speed. The one I installed had a neon lamp, that fired when the speed was high enough.
The switch was a double pole type, that also cut the feed to the truck electrical system from the alternator output. The ignition and the alternator field were just running off the battery, when this unit is in use.


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## dmxtothemax (Jun 15, 2010)

It looks like an invertor
but what would use 110Vdc ?
Perhaps some old power tools ?


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

A true 120V DC is extremely dangerous. I don't mean the 120Hz DC you get by using diodes and flipping over the wave cycle to face the same way, but a steady DC without zero crossing. 

Many relays have lower amperage rating at 24 or 48v DC than 240V AC. If you interrupt DC 120v with serious amps going through using a standard switch, it'll draw an arc and stay lit up until the switch catches on fire and the distance grows long enough to extinguish the arc.


dmxtothemax said:


> It looks like an invertor
> but what would use 110Vdc ?
> Perhaps some old power tools ?


Heating elements, light bulbs, electronic ballasts, computers, and type of motors used in circular saws, vacuum cleaners and such can work on AC or DC. The issue is with switches and fuses. 

Your laptop power adapter and many electronic ballasts most likely work fine on a bank of batteries hooked up to 144v DC, but if there's ever a fault inside, the internal fuse is likely not rated for DC. If there's a hard fault, the fuse can explode until power is killed by a fuse upstream. 

If there's a soft fault (overload), fuse will sizzle until it catches on fire since the load level is not enough to trip the upstream fuse.


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## fdew (Mar 26, 2009)

There is an observatory in CA that was built wilt all 110 volt DC equipment (light switches, motors motor starters ETC) It was off the grid and they didn't want to run a generator at night because of the vibration and the exhaust. Each day they ran the generator and charged batteries to run the place that night.

They have power from the grid now but the original observatory is still DC powered. They carfully save, rebuild and buy old switches that are rated for 120 volt AC and DC. I was given a tour and I made it clear that I wanted to see the power panel in each building. BTW The old Generator is still there and volunteers have restored it. It is a wonderful site.


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## dmxtothemax (Jun 15, 2010)

fdew said:


> There is an observatory in CA that was built wilt all 110 volt DC equipment (light switches, motors motor starters ETC) It was off the grid and they didn't want to run a generator at night because of the vibration and the exhaust. Each day they ran the generator and charged batteries to run the place that night.
> 
> They have power from the grid now but the original observatory is still DC powered. They carfully save, rebuild and buy old switches that are rated for 120 volt AC and DC. I was given a tour and I made it clear that I wanted to see the power panel in each building. BTW The old Generator is still there and volunteers have restored it. It is a wonderful site.


Any pictures ?
Would also like to see !


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## fdew (Mar 26, 2009)

dmxtothemax said:


> Any pictures ?
> Would also like to see !


Here is a start
http://oldengine.org/members/levans/mtwilsonfm/

And a panel


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## metalpats (Apr 11, 2011)

hydro said:


> I'm working on cleaning out sheds at my buddies dads place. He was an electrician, a plumber and heating guy. Pretty interesting dude. Even built high voltage power lines. He had everything in these sheds. Lots of it is still useful, also had a bunch of really cool old equipment. Breakers, fuse panels, old fittings lots of cool stuff. Anyways, found these. Any clue?


do someone know how its wired inside it, it would be an interesting project to add 110 vdc to a truck w/o buying the one on ebay


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## Silversam (Feb 8, 2010)

*DC power and tools cause confusion*

Back in the early 70's I was an Intercom and PA Installer in NYC's Garment Center. I was working in one factory where I had installed a PA system. I had to mount a shelf to hang the amplifier and was laboriously punching a hole in the wall with my rawl plug drill. The factory handyman came by and punched a few holes for me with a hammer drill.

I had asked the office manager to have a separate circuit installed for the PA and he waived me away and said "Just use what's there". So with the shelf up I plugged the amp into the receptacle where the hammer drill had just been plugged into. The amp smoked.

Back to the shop, got another amp. It smokes too!. The wiggy shows 120 volts. Last time I used a wiggy. (The one I had back then didn't have the little LED) 120 volts DC! Con Ed was still offering it in the city then and factories liked it. During the blackout in '77 my friends hall lights in the apartment building stayed on. The hall circuits were DC and the sconces worked just fine.

In the late '90s I was running a crew that was installing Microwave dishes in the city. One of my guys sees the building engineer about power for the equipment and the guy says: (You guessed it!) "Just use what's around". He finds a box with some number 2's, gutter taps them, brings power to the equipment and ---blows it up. Never, ever use a wiggy. Even the new ones with the LED - who ever looks at it? 

This was a building downtown by Chinatown. I didn't think Edison still had DC service anymore. Surprise!


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## xpertpc (Oct 11, 2012)

Not related but a fun story to tell;

In 1980 I had 2 vehicles that I shared an expensive under-dash car stereo with, I used cut in half 120 vac extension cords for quick and cheap 12 vdc connections.

Soon afterwards a friend of mine brought over his car stereo for repair saying it blew up big time, said he plugged it into his house outlet. I asked why did you do that? because he saw my cord setup in my car.


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## dmxtothemax (Jun 15, 2010)

View attachment 46849


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## Galt (Sep 11, 2013)

you don't need anything special to make one of these but I think most newer trucks have internal voltage regulators. I made one on my 77 ford Grumman step van used to run a lot of 110 volt Christmas lights.


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## xpertpc (Oct 11, 2012)

Galt said:


> you don't need anything special to make one of these but I think most newer trucks have internal voltage regulators. I made one on my 77 ford Grumman step van used to run a lot of 110 volt Christmas lights.


When you say internal, do you mean internal as to the engine running a generator which in turn powers a chopper circuit, or internal as in an integrated inductive winding utilizing counter emf which is fed by a high frequency DC pulse?


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## 37523 (Dec 30, 2012)

I remember those 110V car outlets from the 1960s. 

They were used on generators, then alternators. 

Not at all an inverter. As retiredsparktech says, they cut the regulator, and the rest of the car/truck, off the dynamo, fed the raw dynamo output to those outlets. 

The stock dynamo would churn 12VDC near engine idle speed. When speed increases, the dynamo wants to make more voltage. So, stock, the regulator cuts-out the field-coil to reduce voltage. Stock, the voltage varies from 12V to 14V when you idle or roar. 

With the regulator out of action, the voltage rises with speed. Roughly in proportion to *square* of RPM. (The base motor-factor is proportional to RPM, but the Field Coil is fed from the rotor's rising voltage, so it multiplies.) 12V @ 600RPM becomes 120V at 1,900RPM, a very reasonable "cruise". 300V would be 3,000RPM, screemin but not dangerous. (And 6V cars could get to 150V.) 

The current rating is still roughly the same. (However, stock, the regulator enforces a current limit. This contraption makes current management your problem. As even my tractor's generator makes 20 Amps, and cars mostly 30A up, a standard wall-outlet load is probably fine. But not if the whole crew plugs-in all their toys.) 

What can you power with 110V DC? 

Lights and heaters don't care. 

Many AC motors would burn-up on DC (just like Silversam's amplifiers). 

DC motors come in several flavors. The "Universal" motor is used in sewing machines and many (not all) hand power tools. It will actually eat AC or DC (hence "Universal"). It runs a trace smoother on DC than AC (no 120Hz overtone) but on drills and saws the bit/blade racket hides the motor sound. It can be variable-speed. It gives good power per pound, because it is the simplest way to get speeds above 3600RPM with 60Hz AC (the Universal doesn't care much about Hertz). It has a smooth fall-off with RPM so you feel/hear when it is working and when it is over-worked. 

My father had some reason to want to know if his power-drill would take DC. (Maybe he had a deep-woods project and knew a guy with the 110V in his truck.) He thought the motor would (he had an EE in electric motors), but he called the company anyway. He actually got thru to an engineer. He confirmed the motor was fine with DC, the switch was a "maybe". (On AC, the turn-off arc stops 120 times a second. On DC, the turn-off arc can go on forever, unless the switch is built bigger/heavier.) He was told, for a quick job, just do it. The drill engineers knew that DC happened, and budgeted a switch that didn't burn-up right away. And he was told (this was 40 years ago) that if the switch DID fail, he should send it for repair and the company routinely installed a better (DC-capable) switch, free. 

If you break into an Alternator, ahead of the diodes, you can bring out real AC. 3-Phase or 6-Phase. However the frequency is all over the place, proportional to RPM. Unlikely to come out the way you want it. 

I'm wondering about using this contraption with early Alternators. Alt makes AC and diodes turn that to pulsing DC. The diodes must withstand full back-voltage. With the stock regulator the back-wave is only 17V-20V max. Early rectifiers (in the high-Amp type needed here) were maybe 50V back-voltage. It would seem that one good un-regulated rev would blow all your diodes. Perhaps the alternator repair guys knew about this, and 200V diodes did come within a few years. 
_________________________

> _interesting project to add 110 vdc_

I believe this was a Bad Idea. In the Housing Booms of the 1950s and 1960s, a power-carpenter *might* earn enough per job to cover constant repairs to truck and tools. 

Today you *can* buy a 2,000Watt 12V/120V inverter with semi-decent "AC" output and Hertz in-sight of 60. The Voltage will never be way-wrong, it will shut-down when over-loaded, and Silversam won't smoke his AC-power amplifiers with "wall outlet" DC.


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