# How to get slugs kicked out of the local?



## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Had this guy who came out, the work isn't complicated, its a school upgrade,

A third-year apprentice, who is really good but not necessarily a ball of fire, installed five times as much in a day, at way higher quality, than the slug. WTF?!?!? I am not making this up.

Seen this guy before. Same story. How do we get these guys out of the loop? A weeks pay for a day's work isn't sustainable. In the end, this affects MY livelihood!


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

miller_elex said:


> Had this guy who came out, the work isn't complicated, its a school upgrade,
> 
> A third-year apprentice, who is really good but not necessarily a ball of fire, installed five times as much in a day, at way higher quality, than the slug. WTF?!?!? I am not making this up.
> 
> Seen this guy before. Same story. How do we get these guys out of the loop? A weeks pay for a day's work isn't sustainable. In the end, this affects MY livelihood!


I always wondered how you guys dealt with something like that.

Personally I think it would be in Union's best interests to hire and fired as quickly as the non-union can. Especially if they want to sell the idea that Union is worth the extra money. The end product needs to be done even more efficiently.


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## Widestance_Politics (Jun 2, 2010)

miller_elex said:


> Had this guy who came out, the work isn't complicated, its a school upgrade,
> 
> A third-year apprentice, who is really good but not necessarily a ball of fire, installed five times as much in a day, at way higher quality, than the slug. WTF?!?!? I am not making this up.
> 
> Seen this guy before. Same story. How do we get these guys out of the loop? A weeks pay for a day's work isn't sustainable. In the end, this affects MY livelihood!


Around here all I have seen happen is the foreman telling them to go back to the shop, who in turn sends them back to the hall, but they never get removed from the Union completely...the IO wants that monthly payment ya know...I have met so many 300-400 pound diabetic wheezing jelly-bellies it is pathetic (both sides of the fence)....This is one of the only trades where I have met so many out of shape, slow, and entitled laborers...This problem is one of the reasons why I can see the CW/CE program being positive, because now the apprentice's and JW's have to compete physically / productively / and mentally .....but ya, as far as I know your shop has every right to spin the inept.....


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

Frasbee said:


> I always wondered how you guys dealt with something like that.
> 
> Personally I think it would be in Union's best interests to hire and fired as quickly as the non-union can. Especially if they want to sell the idea that Union is worth the extra money. The end product needs to be done even more efficiently.


The contractor can fire people at will. They just go back to the hall and get sent to another job site. 



Widestance_Politics said:


> Around here all I have seen happen is the foreman telling them to go back to the shop, who in turn sends them back to the hall, but they never get removed from the Union completely...the IO wants that monthly payment ya know...I have met so many 300-400 pound diabetic wheezing jelly-bellies it is pathetic (both sides of the fence)....This is one of the only trades where I have met so many out of shape, slow, and entitled laborers...This problem is one of the reasons why I can see the CW/CE program being positive, because now the apprentice's and JW's have to compete physically / productively / and mentally .....but ya, as far as I know your shop has every right to spin the inept.....


I bet you do not talk like this at work if you are in the union? 
It's one thing to be your own man. Have your own ideas. But if you are in the union, I am certain you talk here and don't say s**t at work or at union meetings.
I am not questioning your statement, just your integrity.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

John Valdes said:


> I bet you do not talk like this at work if you are in the union?
> It's one thing to be your own man. Have your own ideas. But if you are in the union, I am certain you talk here and don't say s**t at work or at union meetings.
> I am not questioning your statement, just your integrity.


So what does that even mean?

I think it means he should not let the cat out of the bag and point out there are a lot of fat lazy Fs collecting top pay for little work.


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## Widestance_Politics (Jun 2, 2010)

John Valdes said:


> The contractor can fire people at will. They just go back to the hall and get sent to another job site.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh I say what I want to at work...I usually work with like-minded guys ...in my local there are two -clicks....the "shoppies" and "the slugs"...not saying that I don't know when to keep my mouth shut...for instance, you are correct that I don't say what I feel at a meeting...in fact I have only been to 3 meetings in four years as it was quickly apparent which click runs that show....I was the only organized hand at the CW/CE meeting - talk about not feeling welcome:blink:


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

When one goes through the 5 years of hardship and training that the IBEW gives in their apprenticeship program, it seems to me we have more dedication to the logic of 8for8(I know not always) Something that IO has pushed as part of their Code of Excellence if you are dismissed from 2 contractors within a year for just cause you are not allowed to work again until you go before the board in that area.Wildstance I appreciate your being open about being organized in(it is where our roots come from) I respect your attitude of getting the job done and being productive, my concern is though when I swore an oath to the IBEW, it was my understaning that attending union funtions was a part of helping our cause(no matter how biased the personel may be that rules those said meetings) I have always been on the road by choice and attend all funtions of whatever local jurisdiction I happen to be in. A statement that John Valdes made is valid(not true in my case) in South Carolina being one of the most anti union states in the USA and only one inside local life can be tough if you have opposing views( I believe I am banned from the whole city of Charleston)LOL. John I know it does not seem like it sometimes but standing up for what is right is part of the union ideals.


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## Widestance_Politics (Jun 2, 2010)

Brother Noah said:


> When one goes through the 5 years of hardship and training that the IBEW gives in their apprenticeship program, it seems to me we have more dedication to the logic of 8for8(I know not always) Something that IO has pushed as part of their Code of Excellence if you are dismissed from 2 contractors within a year for just cause you are not allowed to work again until you go before the board in that area.Wildstance I appreciate your being open about being organized in(it is where our roots come from) I respect your attitude of getting the job done and being productive, my concern is though when I swore an oath to the IBEW, it was my understaning that attending union funtions was a part of helping our cause(no matter how biased the personel may be that rules those said meetings) I have always been on the road by choice and attend all funtions of whatever local jurisdiction I happen to be in. A statement that John Valdes made is valid(not true in my case) in South Carolina being one of the most anti union states in the USA and only one inside local life can be tough if you have opposing views( I believe I am banned from the whole city of Charleston)LOL. John I know it does not seem like it sometimes but standing up for what is right is part of the union ideals.


I'm not being negative about the Union, it's history, its ideal etc. etc. My lifestyle, job opportunities, and future all benefit from me joining.....In my post I was talking about people in "the trade" not just Union...I am glad to have had the opportunity to have experience in both Union/Non-Union as I see the negatives on both sides. You have been in the Union for a long time and I appreciate that, but it doesn't mean that everything is peachy over here. 
As for meetings and their so-called Democratic process...the IO sent a rep to that last meeting I attended , who in no uncertain terms told us that we would accept the CW/CE program after we voted it down the first time....coincidentally we are in the midst of having a re-vote on our officers as the IO is questioning the legitimacy of the first vote.....


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Most locals allow the contractor to turn guys around without cause. After a while, some give up and become inspectors. lol


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

Brother Noah said:


> When one goes through the 5 years of hardship and training that the IBEW gives in their apprenticeship program,


Just want to point out, it is equivalent to a 6 month tech school education, followed up with 4.5 yrs OJT.




Not exactly 5 yrs of hardship.


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

Rather than worrying about the slug workers, you folks should worry about the slug management you have, and the corruption you have within your organizations.

This would improve your image better.


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## Widestance_Politics (Jun 2, 2010)

Dnkldorf said:


> Just want to point out, it is equivalent to a 6 month tech school education, followed up with 4.5 yrs OJT.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Obviously you, like I, went to a State sponsored school? My class was taught by one of the most ignorant state inspectors I have met(he's been removed from teaching btw)...out of 32 students only 4 of us passed the state exam.....if you wanted to learn you did it on your own time. The JATC program is far from a joke and I wish that I would have had access to some of the stuff those guys do. And from the way I see apprentices get treated by SOME of the JW's I definitely agree that they go through 5 years of hardship. I see what you mean about image tho and on the same note, if non-union shops would stop hiring unregistered/unlicensced/drug-addled inbreds it would improve their image too......guys on either side of this fence seem quick to point out what they think is bad about the other side while ignoring any flaws on their own side...in the end there are ****heels all around...


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

Dnkldorf said:


> Just want to point out, it is equivalent to a 6 month tech school education, followed up with 4.5 yrs OJT.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You state this as fact because....


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Dnkldorf said:


> Just want to point out, it is equivalent to a 6 month tech school education, followed up with 4.5 yrs OJT.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No Dnk!,
Its five years with your butt in a seat from 7PM until 10:30PM three or more nights a week. Not a high school "tech" program. It was like a military A school for us. No excuses, no breaks. It was hard!!


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## iwa (Jun 26, 2010)

miller_elex said:


> Had this guy who came out, the work isn't complicated, its a school upgrade,
> 
> A third-year apprentice, who is really good but not necessarily a ball of fire, installed five times as much in a day, at way higher quality, than the slug. WTF?!?!? I am not making this up.
> 
> Seen this guy before. Same story. How do we get these guys out of the loop? A weeks pay for a day's work isn't sustainable. In the end, this affects MY livelihood!


In the Local I'm in they are finally starting to fire (not "lay off") guys who do this. I think the new rule is if you get fired twice in a year they boot you from the local. They're also starting to kick apprentices out who don't do their homework and put in the classroom effort, giving them the option to become a CW/CE or getting booted


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

it's about time. I think that's a really positive step for the unions. I know it's hard for them to make that change too.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Brother Noah said:


> When one goes through the 5 years of hardship and training that the IBEW gives in their apprenticeship program, it seems to me we have more dedication to the logic of 8for8(I know not always)
> 
> 
> > UNION HORSE HOCKEY, been there, done that saw the movie.
> ...


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

Dnkldorf said:


> Just want to point out, it is equivalent to a 6 month tech school education, followed up with 4.5 yrs OJT.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have no problem if you are ignorant to the facts but if your are just trying to stir BS you show childism mentality. The school work is credits towards a college degree, the same if someone took the same classes on their own. In my third year we worked 6 days 10 hours a day(if you quit or get fired you go before the board) I drove 3-4 hours a day, went to school 3 nights a week 3-4 hours each night, and I know it is MY FAULT but I had a wife and kids that relied on me and my paycheck to survive. I agree that the unions and nonunion both have problems but our apprenticeship is an asset to the IBEW and in no way have I EVER heard anyone who has experienced it call it easy. I would advise you if you have those harsh feelings toward the union find something else to condemn (something that others might believe)


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

I really wanted to fire my girlfriend today when she was "helping" me put 3 dog kennels together. I told her it was a good thing she was "union"(which means I wasn't brave enough to tell her to go inside she wasn't much help) because I'd have to fire her if she wasn't. She seemed to wonder off when she was supposed to be holding the fence!:whistling2::laughing:


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

brian john said:


> Brother Noah said:
> 
> 
> > When one goes through the 5 years of hardship and training that the IBEW gives in their apprenticeship program, it seems to me we have more dedication to the logic of 8for8(I know not always)
> ...


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> I really wanted to fire my girlfriend today when she was "helping" me put 3 dog kennels together. I told her it was a good thing she was "union"(which means I wasn't brave enough to tell her to go inside she wasn't much help) because I'd have to fire her if she wasn't. She seemed to wonder off when she was supposed to be holding the fence!:whistling2::laughing:


don't be suprised if she fires you first


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

wildleg said:


> don't be suprised if she fires you first


 
With her anything is possible.:thumbsup:


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

John Valdes said:


> I bet you do not talk like this at work if you are in the union?
> It's one thing to be your own man. Have your own ideas. But if you are in the union, I am certain you talk here and don't say s**t at work or at union meetings.
> 
> I am not questioning your statement, just your integrity.


You're right. I talk all my smack here. It doesn't matter who I am working for, on the job I keep my head down and mouth shut.

P.S. I am not one of the three percent that attends meetings.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Dnkldorf said:


> Not exactly 5 yrs of hardship.


 
Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

Hardship is working three minimum wage jobs to feed your kids.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Dnkldorf said:


> you folks should worry about the slug management you have.


We got the best PM's in the business. Head and shoulders above the competition.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Brother Noah said:


> miller_elex may have more imput on this issue since it is his thread


Everybody gets reduced, there is the optional box to check 'not for re-hire.' It is impossible to get fired in this state, unless they have pictures of you stealing something. Laying a man off is typically what happens, on both sides of the fence. They call it getting fired, but it is technically a layoff.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

miller_elex said:


> Everybody gets reduced,


By reduced do you mean laid off? Does EVERYONE on your local get laid off when jobs are completed?



> It is impossible to get fired in this state,


Is this CA? I would assume this is one more reason this state is losing employers.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

miller_elex said:


> Had this guy who came out, the work isn't complicated, its a school upgrade,
> 
> A third-year apprentice, who is really good but not necessarily a ball of fire, installed five times as much in a day, at way higher quality, than the slug. WTF?!?!? I am not making this up.
> 
> Seen this guy before. Same story. How do we get these guys out of the loop? A weeks pay for a day's work isn't sustainable. In the end, this affects MY livelihood!




Great question and a real concern in today's unions. I feel this is one of the biggest obstacles in the advancement of unionism, just as big as any outside threat.

I think a credible start would be at the apprenticeship level.

First, lets scale back the nepotism. The majority (not all) of the bums are the ones who's grand daddy were members and thinks that the local and the contractors owe them something.
(insert favorite buzz word-*Entitlement*)

Second, Start holding apprentices accountable for their performance in school. I'm sick of the double standard that exists between the "family members" and everyone else.

Third, Make the apprentices PAY for school. In my local you get paid to come to school and your books are deducted from the check. The JATC should hold the money and give it to you once you finish the program. If you fail or quit you loose the money.

Also let's have an evaluation of apprentice performance from the journeyman AND the contractors after all their the ones investing in the future journeyman.

Now for the Journeyman.

Every hiring agent knows who the stiffs are. Let's start "investigating" the losers who are constantly getting cut loose by all 350 contractors in my local. Maybe we need a couple of corpses booted out.

Also I feel the contractors share a little of the responsibility here as well. Learn the rules of hiring and firing. Stop "laying" guy's off who deserve to be fired, fire their f*****G ass!! 

If the MEN could pick their own job stewards instead of the business agents maybe these stiffs wouldn't get the protection that they hide behind.

I know I don't often come off as being contractor friendly but at the very least they deserve a hard days work from EVERYONE.

Let me say that MOST guy's are honest hard working people but the percentage that's not is too high right now. We're paid pretty damn good let's return the favor. 

O.K now that every hard core old time union member is cursing me out and calling me names, I'll bite my tongue.


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

jrannis said:


> No Dnk!,
> Its five years with your butt in a seat from 7PM until 10:30PM three or more nights a week. Not a high school "tech" program.


 
No, it is a 1000 hr class. just spread out over 5 yrs.

CHI Institute, Pennco Tech, Devry Institute, they are all the same. 1000hrs of class. 6 Months long. 



> It was like a military A school for us. No excuses, no breaks. It was hard!!


Cut me a break. There is no way in hell you can compare apprenticeship training to the military. Don't even try to compare the two.

Apprenticeship training would be like getting boy scout badges compared to the schools the folks in fatigues go through.


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

miller_elex said:


> Even a broken clock is right twice a day.
> 
> Hardship is working three minimum wage jobs to feed your kids.


So who's fault is that?


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Dnkldorf said:


> Just want to point out, it is equivalent to a 6 month tech school education, followed up with 4.5 yrs OJT.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Dnkldorf said:


> Rather than worrying about the slug workers, you folks should worry about the slug management you have, and the corruption you have within your organizations.
> 
> This would improve your image better.





Dnkldorf said:


> No, it is a 1000 hr class. just spread out over 5 yrs.
> 
> CHI Institute, Pennco Tech, Devry Institute, they are all the same. 1000hrs of class. 6 Months long.
> 
> ...




Things must be slow for you. Hopefully they pick up soon. You must not be happy with your career choice, you constantly degrade the trade.

Smile sometimes it's good for the soul.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

> Dnkldorf;No, it is a 1000 hr class. just spread out over 5 yrs.
> 
> CHI Institute, Pennco Tech, Devry Institute, they are all the same. 1000hrs of class. 6 Months long.



The number of hours are the same but that's where the similarities end.
We could argue this all night but, been there, done that...





> Cut me a break. There is no way in hell you can compare apprenticeship training to the military. Don't even try to compare the two.
> 
> Apprenticeship training would be like getting boy scout badges compared to the schools the folks in fatigues go through.



Although the apprenticeship is tough. I think I can agree with you on this point. eek: Imagine we could actually agree to something!!!!)


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Dnkldorf said:


> No, it is a 1000 hr class. just spread out over 5 yrs.
> 
> CHI Institute, Pennco Tech, Devry Institute, they are all the same. 1000hrs of class. 6 Months long.
> 
> ...


LOL Dnk, You are Clueless:

This what I deal with............

http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/79/a4oihla.gif






..The Horror!


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

slickvic277 said:


> I know I don't often come off as being contractor friendly but at the very least they deserve a hard days work from EVERYONE.
> 
> Let me say that MOST guy's are honest hard working people but the percentage that's not is too high right now. We're paid pretty damn good let's return the favor.


Wow, if all of the union demonstrated this attitude, most of the electrical work being performed would be by the union workers.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

> Let me say that MOST guy's are honest hard working people but the percentage that's not is too high right now. We're paid pretty damn good let's return the favor.


While this is true, on the few big jobs I worked on, the slackers/slugs berated anyone that tried to put in a decent days work and seemed to control the work flow.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

brian john said:


> While this is true, on the few big jobs I worked on, the slackers/slugs berated anyone that tried to put in a decent days work and seemed to control the work flow.


Leadership problem...............


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

jrannis said:


> Leadership problem...............



Yes it is, and it seems to be ........ or I should say has been prevalent. At this point in the economy I tend to believe the low production guys have been pushed aside.

We have been hired by a large union contractor to make some fire alarm connections (They do not have a choice:thumbsup and my guy that has been out there and was saying that their foreman was very sharp and that I have no doubt at all about, he is still working so I can only imagine he is good at his job.


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## Lone Crapshooter (Nov 8, 2008)

We have slugs in the nonsignitured side too. They hold on their jobs by buying rounds in the bar after work. I know of people that were not capable of being good helpers ending up as foremen.

I worked for a company in Freeport that had a change of leadership and the Foreman that came in was longtime Fish Engineering and the first thing he did was take all of the controls men and put them running conduit and all of the conduit men on controls. Most of the conduit men were ex-Fish Engineering he told me that unless you were ex-Fish you were not capable of building a chemical plant. 
He ask me if I could hook up a 480 volt motor I told him that I could I ask him if he could he said no then I ask him what gave him the right to ask me if I could.
I ended up working for a guy that could not read a digital meter. It read 000 he ask me what that met I told him that was O short for OK he was satisfied.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Fish Engineering? Did I miss something? WTF is that??


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

jrannis said:


> Leadership problem...............


Union standards


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

slickvic277 said:


> ...Third, Make the apprentices PAY for school. In my local you get paid to come to school and your books are deducted from the check. The JATC should hold the money and give it to you once you finish the program. If you fail or quit you loose the money.


 I agree with everything you said, except for this.

I understand the spirit behind it: You make sure the apprentice has something seriously invested in his education, and it keeps him from screwing around. The problem is, it costs a lot of money to get through apprenticeship classes. By saying they should pay for it, you're effectively locking the trade to anyone who doesn't happen to have a couple thousand dollars sitting around.

I say this because I personally know of several instances where very capable, very sharp guys were prevented from becoming merit-shop electricians because they simply couldn't afford the schooling. One guy was supporting his wife and two kids. The other guy was just young and green and not getting paid very much. 

The union levels the playing field, regardless of your wealth, and unfortunately, I worry this step would unlevel it. 

Maybe the thing to do would be to pay for the schooling, but if the apprentice dropped out, then they would be responsible for repaying what the union had spent. If they didn't it would go to collections.

-John


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

Bob Badger said:


> So what does that even mean?
> 
> I think it means he should not let the cat out of the bag and point out there are a lot of fat lazy Fs collecting top pay for little work.


That's happens in every trade union or not. By the way, how the hell would you know?



Widestance_Politics said:


> Oh I say what I want to at work...I usually work with like-minded guys ...in my local there are two -clicks....the "shoppies" and "the slugs"...not saying that I don't know when to keep my mouth shut...for instance, you are correct that I don't say what I feel at a meeting...in fact I have only been to 3 meetings in four years as it was quickly apparent which click runs that show....I was the only organized hand at the CW/CE meeting - talk about not feeling welcome:blink:


You sure have little respect for the organization that trained you an paid you at the same time. Talk about ungrateful.



jrannis said:


> No Dnk!,
> Its five years with your butt in a seat from 7PM until 10:30PM three or more nights a week. Not a high school "tech" program. It was like a military A school for us. No excuses, no breaks. It was hard!!


Yep. How many of you slugs have sat in classroom while your buddies from work were out drinking and having a good time? Like I said before. It's the ones that have no clue that make all this negative noise about unions.



brian john said:


> Brother Noah said:
> 
> 
> > When one goes through the 5 years of hardship and training that the IBEW gives in their apprenticeship program, it seems to me we have more dedication to the logic of 8for8(I know not always)
> ...


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## Lone Crapshooter (Nov 8, 2008)

When I was in school in Freeport you paid upfront for your classes and books. At the end of the semester you were reimbursed for the classes
depending on grades and if you got a A the contractors would reimburse 100% tuition and 50% books.

Fish Engineering is a engineering,construction, and maintenance firm in Houston.


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## Widestance_Politics (Jun 2, 2010)

John Valdes said:


> You sure have little respect for the organization that trained you an paid you at the same time. Talk about ungrateful.


Actually you will see in my later posts that I was not trained by the Union or paid by them during training.I don't owe the Union for getting me my license, I paid for it and worked hard for it while providing for a family of five.The Union provides me with work and I show up to do a great job for them...I stand by the fact that the Union has improved my life, and have met many guys that I have a lot of respect for.....doesn't mean I have to just accept the fact that there are those who have survived in the IBEW by who they know, or who they are related to etc. etc. The attitude you have with guys complaining about this topic and the fact that you actually threw out the word "turncoat" is a perfect example of why you don't see guys voicing their issues in a meeting...


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

Widestance_Politics said:


> The attitude you have with guys complaining about this topic and the fact that you actually threw out the word "turncoat" is a perfect example of why you don't see guys voicing their issues in a meeting...


I have no problem with complaints of those not doing what they took a job to do. Just last week here in So-Cal I was told that a recently topped out JW that went to work nonunion has been presented with a lawsuit by the IBEW for $20,000. It seems that the apprentice here have to sign a contract not to work against the IBEW for 5 years or they agree to repay what that union has invested in their education. Widestance I do appreciate where you come from but by what you have posted you do not attend meetings and or get involved in IBEW events to avoid confortation,hassle,pain in th azz(however you want to put it) which I disagree with. My ideals and thoughts have rarely been popular with union or nonunion but I do state what I truely believe in.If you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem.It is not how you got here but what you do once you are there.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Brother Noah said:


> I have no problem with complaints of those not doing what they took a job to do. Just last week here in So-Cal I was told that a recently topped out JW that went to work nonunion has been presented with a lawsuit by the IBEW for $20,000.



If there is no work for the apprentice and he was trying to make a living and I can't think of any other reason to be working open shop, then the local has no work. If they enforce this then the union, the local and the membership are despicable POS's.


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## Widestance_Politics (Jun 2, 2010)

brian john said:


> If there is no work for the apprentice and he was trying to make a living and I can't think of any other reason to be working open shop, then the local has no work. If they enforce this then the union, the local and the membership are despicable POS's.


Actually it is in our contract that we will not go out and compete against the hall, meaning work for a non-union shop. That doesn't mean a guy can't feed his family....without details I am gonna assume that this JW went out on the sly, probably with his name on the books, and then when work picks up he'll expect to take a call as if nothing ever happened....all a guy has to do is talk to his hall, quit the Union, or, without hunting it down I think there is a provision where you can freeze your membership? I'd say the guy is at fault.......


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Widestance_Politics said:


> Actually it is in our contract that we will not go out and compete against the hall, meaning work for a non-union shop. That doesn't mean a guy can't feed his family....without details I am gonna assume that this JW went out on the sly, probably with his name on the books, and then when work picks up he'll expect to take a call as if nothing ever happened....all a guy has to do is talk to his hall, quit the Union, or, without hunting it down I think there is a provision where you can freeze your membership? I'd say the guy is at fault.......


I'd say despectable, yeah draw unemployment, why work making a living when you can sit on yoUr ass. Kick a man when he is down.


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## Widestance_Politics (Jun 2, 2010)

brian john said:


> I'd say despectable, yeah draw unemployment, why work making a living when you can sit on yoUr ass. Kick a man when he is down.


I'm not sure what your saying here....I'm just saying that I got a family to feed and decisions to make like everyone else, but if I was in his situation I wouldn't have an argument to make as I agreed to the same punishment....who said he couldn't go work Non-Union or feed his family? Just quit the IBEW and do it...If his hall can't employ him he has every right to leave....but working for Non-Union while on the Union books sorta defeats the puprose of joining in the first place right?


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## CrossThreaded (Jun 27, 2010)

It's not as straight forward as you make it out to be. 

I have had a long, solid career until last year in which I got laid off and had no other openings, so I was forced to sign a book behind 700 other men, the wait is about 2 years.

So you are saying that I should just quit the union? Nope, I am going to wait it out, but I am going to work in the meantime, I can't just take 2 years off.

As for the topic of this thread, I have to throw some blame at the contractors. There have been MANY, MANY times that I have tried to fire someone for being a slug, but been told by my road super or project manager to just lay him off. The contractor is scared of any issues (wrongful termination suits, etc.) that might arise from firing someone, they always try to avoid it. I've had this discussion with multiple BA's and they all agree that firing them is the best option so that they can get rid of them. The times that I did fire men, I always sent a well written letter to the hall describing everything that the worker did, or didn't do. I never had a problem, the only thing I ever heard from a BA was an apology.


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## Widestance_Politics (Jun 2, 2010)

CrossThreaded said:


> It's not as straight forward as you make it out to be.
> 
> I have had a long, solid career until last year in which I got laid off and had no other openings, so I was forced to sign a book behind 700 other men, the wait is about 2 years.
> 
> ...


Ya our book is at like 250 so being around 700 would be a tough pill to swallow, but it still remains that if you wanna stay in the IBEW and work on the side that you know you are taking a risk, and what would it hurt to at least go and talk to the hall about your situation rather than get caught operating behind everyones back like this guy must have?


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## CrossThreaded (Jun 27, 2010)

Widestance_Politics said:


> Ya our book is at like 250 so being around 700 would be a tough pill to swallow, but it still remains that if you wanna stay in the IBEW and work on the side that you know you are taking a risk, and what would it hurt to at least go and talk to the hall about your situation rather than get caught operating behind everyones back like this guy must have?


 I have talked to the BM, I am considered a "SALT" right now. 

A Salt means different things to different people. 

A) A union guy working for a non union shop trying to bust it up and cost them money, starting trouble where ever possible.
B) A union guy working for a non union shop trying to make a living and also showing them that union labor can be very skilled and productive.

I went with B. However, I am in the process of getting my licensed and hopefully will go out on my own within the next 2 years.


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

brian john said:


> If there is no work for the apprentice and he was trying to make a living and I can't think of any other reason to be working open shop, then the local has no work. If they enforce this then the union, the local and the membership are despicable POS's.


 I must appoligize for not going into more detail so that some would not completely flip from lack of data. This said person I took out on the road with me and tried several times to get him to go back to the bay to gain a job last summer(I made a somewhere around $27K for 7 weeks work) but he told me he was going to school. Another friend ran across him in a company truck, the hall was called, they in turn contacted this said person and offered him to come to the hall and sign a Salt card he declined. I do take blame for not going into enough detail but Brian your erratic post inre to unions leaves much to be desired.Do you have no faith in the IBEW or yourself?


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## CrossThreaded (Jun 27, 2010)

I have to agree with Noah. The fact is that the union members DID sign the contract and are expected to be responsible for their own actions. The second fact is that in every situation I have heard about concerning this matter, the person was given many chances to stop working non union or to become a Salt, etc. 

The fact is, in every situation I see the hall giving many chances, as long as you come clean and are honest and go along with them, they won't F with you. Sometimes they give too many chances which is the exact topic of this thread (slugs not getting kicked out of the local).


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Widestance_Politics said:


> I'm not sure what your saying here....I'm just saying that I got a family to feed and decisions to make like everyone else, but if I was in his situation I wouldn't have an argument to make as I agreed to the same punishment....who said he couldn't go work Non-Union or feed his family? Just quit the IBEW and do it...If his hall can't employ him he has every right to leave....but working for Non-Union while on the Union books sorta defeats the puprose of joining in the first place right?


Quite the family man


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## CrossThreaded (Jun 27, 2010)

brian john said:


> Quite the family man


This seems more like an attack than a side of a conversation.

What exactly do you suggest should happen?


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## Widestance_Politics (Jun 2, 2010)

brian john said:


> Quite the family man


Thanks:thumbsup:


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

John Valdes said:


> You sure have little respect for the organization that trained you an paid you at the same time. Talk about ungrateful.


80% of the membership of this organization WORK for a living. Men who go to work, get the job done, go home, and show up to do it all over again. Honest, hardworking folks, who work when nobody is watching.

If someone wants to go to the bar after work, good on them. The school-house at night can be a slug circle-jerk fer all I care.

J.V. I don't know who got you all riled up to defend the 20% who don't deserve to hang on the coattails of the other 80% collectively bargaining.

I will just come right out and say it, These losers are holding us back. Holding us back from gaining market share. There's all kinds of competent non-union electricians who would come on board, were it not for having to associate with turds who shouldn't be electricians in the first place. Am I right, Bob? You're probably laughing. :laughing:

Lets make room for the organization to evolve at a faster pace. Evolution means natural selection of the most adaptable. No good deed goes unpunished, shielding fakers and phonies who can't cut it is going to hurt me and every other honest hardworking union electrician. Think sustainability.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

CrossThreaded said:


> A Salt means different things to different people.
> A union guy working for a non union shop trying to make a living and also showing them that union labor can be very skilled and productive.


Yep, the other side was very impressed in my situation as well. Also dispelled alot of 'myths.' Basically just showed up and worked like I would for anybody else. 

Another guy who couldn't hold out waiting for work any longer, because he sat on the hook way too long before signing the book, he showed up for work at the company I was salting. I immediately made him to go sign a SALT card to cover his butt from the hall. He had no idea he woulda been caught red-handed doing davis-bacon work. Now THAT, watching out for my brother, that's brotherhood.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> So what does that even mean?
> 
> I think it means he should not let the cat out of the bag and point out there are a lot of fat lazy Fs collecting top pay for little work.





John Valdes said:


> That's happens in every trade union or not. By the way, how the hell would you know?


No, we fire our lazy, or if we keep them on we pay them the peanuts they have earned. We do not try to 'cover for them'. 

How do I know?

I don't know how things are where you worked, I do have a pretty good idea how it works here often being one of the only merit shop contractors on job sites.



Bob Badger said:


> Yes it is, and it seems to be ........ or I should say has been prevalent. At this point in the economy I tend to believe the low production guys have been pushed aside.
> 
> We have been hired by a large union contractor to make some fire alarm connections (They do not have a choice) and my guy that has been out there and was saying that their foreman was very sharp and that I have no doubt at all about, he is still working so I can only imagine he is good at his job.





John Valdes said:


> Now the question? How much is your shop paying this guy?


Really none of your business is it?

But I will tell you he gets 2 weeks vacation, health, dental, 11 paid holidays and between $30 to $40 per hr. Any required training provided for free.



> How much is the local paying your shop?


The exact same rate we charge anyone, I did not crank our rate because it is for a union shop.



> You will work with union and accept wages from them.


Of course, I have worked side by side with union guys all my electrical career.

In the course of that time we have had to sub work out to union contractors and other times union contractors have hired us. It is business, no more no less. 




> Then you come here and think you are squeaky clean?


This does not even make sense.:blink:

Any chance you had already started your Independence day buzz? :laughing:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

CrossThreaded said:


> This seems more like an attack than a side of a conversation.
> 
> What exactly do you suggest should happen?


Let's see how to phrase this, a man that sits home on his ass when he could be out making more money, supporting his family, has his priorities screwed up.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

brian john said:


> Let's see how to phrase this, a man that sits home on his ass when he could be out making more money, supporting his family, has his priorities screwed up.


And a man that does not respect the agreements he signed to has his integrity screwed up.

No easy answers.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

This thread is so jacked, I cant even follow it.
How did this happen BOB??


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

jrannis said:


> ...............How did this happen BOB??


He didn't use the Thanks! button. :laughing:


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Seems like the guys usually assimilate into the shops culture, if not, they make the first layoff. 
I still say the person that is directly supervising the men will make or break any problem that arises.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

Widestance_Politics said:


> Actually you will see in my later posts that I was not trained by the Union or paid by them during training.I don't owe the Union for getting me my license, I paid for it and worked hard for it while providing for a family of five.The Union provides me with work and I show up to do a great job for them...I stand by the fact that the Union has improved my life, and have met many guys that I have a lot of respect for.....doesn't mean I have to just accept the fact that there are those who have survived in the IBEW by who they know, or who they are related to etc. etc. The attitude you have with guys complaining about this topic and the fact that you actually threw out the word "turncoat" is a perfect example of why you don't see guys voicing their issues in a meeting...


Fair enough.



Bob Badger said:


> No, we fire our lazy, or if we keep them on we pay them the peanuts they have earned. We do not try to 'cover for them'.
> 
> How do I know?
> 
> ...


When I worked union things were very different than they are today. I guess I should stay out of these discussions because frankly my comments come from union experience many years ago.
In those days we never worked alongside non-union workers. And I have no issue with non-union work or it's workers. I also know we have slackers on both sides of the isle. I have a gratitude to the IBEW because without their program I may have never got my first real job. 
Naw, no alcohol yesterday until much later. 
Happy 4th to all. You too Bob!


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> And a man that does not respect the agreements he signed to has his integrity screwed up.
> 
> No easy answers.


Bob I see you have a thank you button phobia but I would like to say you have been open, honest, objective and fair with your post on this thread. Both union and nonunion have our share of problems including workers who are like tits on a boar hog(worthless) Just as most of our union contracts have a "if you screw it up you fix it on your on time" line somewhere in the mix, although it would violate state and or federal law, it is there as a gentle reminder that for us to compete with others we must do our best job the first time. the same could be said about the apprentice signing an agreement to payback the union if they go against us within 5 years of topping out.No matter what side you are on it is human nature to LOOK for the bad in the other side, and myths are born. The unions are not out attacking the nonunion shops, they are allowing us to go out and Salt freely and in a sincere way(8for8 no strings) we are to try to impress the contractor and earn a living.I have seen post on this site in regards to Salts forcing contractors to file for bankruptcy and or sign an agreement, I am not saying that it is not happening but I do know what IO has been preaching is against it and it does not make sense today. Again thanks for your post Bob on this subject.


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## crazymurph (Aug 19, 2009)

The bottom line is, if they are a card carrying member with paid up dues, you can not kick them out. No matter how worthless they may be. If the IBEW was to get rid of the referal system and allow a member to solicit his or her own work, then the slugs will be on the bench and the real workers would have jobs.


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

crazymurph said:


> The bottom line is, if they are a card carrying member with paid up dues, you can not kick them out. No matter how worthless they may be. If the IBEW was to get rid of the referal system and allow a member to solicit his or her own work, then the slugs will be on the bench and the real workers would have jobs.


 Then we would be different from the nonunion HOW? I understand frustration but the referal system(flawed as it is) still allows us to take our turn to work(yes I realize its only a theory)We do have those unethical ones who keep their names on the books while they work elsewhere.
What you have posted is not true about as long as they pay their dues nothing can be done, I have seen where charges have been brought against members for all sorts of reasons, fines assessed and until they paid this said fine they were unable to work IBEW. Just by your post it leads me to think that maybe you lack some experience within the IBEW yourself.This is not an attempt to stir BS with you, it just blows me away that your answer to the problem is to lower our standards to mimic what the nonunion shops have.


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## Lone Crapshooter (Nov 8, 2008)

If the IBEW has such high standards then why do you have so many slugs.
Sounds to me that you might need to lower your standards and let in some good nonsignitured electricians may be even some non relatives in to improve your overall image.


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

Lone Crapshooter said:


> If the IBEW has such high standards then why do you have so many slugs.
> Sounds to me that you might need to lower your standards and let in some good nonsignitured electricians may be even some non relatives in to improve your overall image.


 Here we are once again believeing the myths.I am a product of past practices that may have been wrong(I am third generation) I believe the year was 1980 that the goverment stepped in and mandated the unions take in 51% minorities.Aside from that as we speak it is easier to get into the IBEW than ever before(the CE/CW program ask for little but a willing sole to go to work) check with a local close to where ever you live. The other part of your post that I disagree with is the IBEW having so many slugs, I do not see that we have a problem with a high percentage being slugs(it is just that the ones that are really are bad). I have only worked on 14 jobs nonunion, most were 30-100 worker jobs were usualy only maybe 15% were good hard working journeymen, many that I had the pleasure to work around were low paid labors, some who had a real hard time making it to work on time if at all and when some were there you wished they were not so you could something done. We do have slugs in the IBEW, just as they do working for nonounion contractors is my point. I am no fan of this new CE/CW plan that IO has come up with,I think it devalues both union and nonunion journeymen but it makes it easy to get into the IBEW.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Brother Noah said:


> Here we are once again believeing the myths.I am a product of past practices that may have been wrong(I am third generation) I believe the year was 1980 that the goverment stepped in and mandated the unions take in 51% minorities.Aside from that as we speak it is easier to get into the IBEW than ever before(the CE/CW program ask for little but a willing sole to go to work) check with a local close to where ever you live. The other part of your post that I disagree with is the IBEW having so many slugs, I do not see that we have a problem with a high percentage being slugs(it is just that the ones that are really are bad). I have only worked on 14 jobs nonunion, most were 30-100 worker jobs were usualy only maybe 15% were good hard working journeymen, many that I had the pleasure to work around were low paid labors, some who had a real hard time making it to work on time if at all and when some were there you wished they were not so you could something done. We do have slugs in the IBEW, just as they do working for nonounion contractors is my point. I am no fan of this new CE/CW plan that IO has come up with,I think it devalues both union and nonunion journeymen but it makes it easy to get into the IBEW.



Do you take daily med.s?


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Brother Noah said:


> I understand frustration but the referal system(flawed as it is) still allows us to take our turn to work(yes I realize its only a theory)


How many W-2's do you average a year??

I'll bet its four or more, so you see, we have nothing in common. And you've a vested interest in keeping the referral system we have, and keeping the ibew a sick and wounded beast.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Brothher Noah wants to keep the part of the Ibew that works like the Welfare line. Cynical? Don't cry your third generation hooey, I can smell the self-interest.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Brother Noah said:


> Then we would be different* from the nonunion HOW? * your answer to the problem is to *lower our standards to mimic what the nonunion shops have.*


Noah, I respectfully disagree with this. The referral only system BLOWS. It holds us back considerably. Once again I'll use my local as an example, we have a "50/50" method of hiring. What happens is this, for every man who is hired by solicitation the contractors next hire has to be off the list. This does two things, one it keeps the list moving AND two, allows the members to actively seek work. Also a contractor can develop their own workforce.

It must work, right now when the majority of locals are experiencing 30,40, and 50% unemployment we have around 10-12%. We're widely considered the best local in the area. We have over 300 signatory contractors, no small works agreements, no ce/cw, and the IO doesn't put it's nose in our affairs. According to the IO we have the highest rate of market share in the entire IBEW based on average manhours per member. Our last contract almost led to a strike with a vote from the membership giving the BM the authority to call one if needed. The IO kept out of it giving us they're full support.( Imagine that. )

What I see from referral only is a system that harbors favoritism among forman and breeds a culture of job scared men who bend the agreement over just in the name of self preservation. Imagine the power of telling some asshole boss to go f*ck himself, quit, and find a new job all in the same day.

How does any of this make us "stoop to the level of non union"??
I always thought unions where to create a "higher and higher standard of living". How does this not do that? I see nothing wrong with an able, ready, and willing man having the ability to find work.

My local is far from perfect and there is plenty that could be changed for the better but the hiring system is not one of them. If I was number 800 on an out-of-work list I'm doing everything I can to find employment. With our system *everyone has the same opportunity* to work just not the ass kissers and ball washers.

You can call me wormy, scab, whatever, it will not change my mind. 






Brother Noah said:


> Here we are once again believeing the myths.I am a product of past practices that may have been wrong(I am third generation) I believe the year was 1980 that the goverment stepped in and mandated the unions take in 51% minorities.Aside from that as we speak it is easier to get into the IBEW than ever before(the CE/CW program ask for little but a willing sole to go to work) check with a local close to where ever you live. The other part of your post that I disagree with is the IBEW having so many slugs, I do not see that we have a problem with a high percentage being slugs(it is just that the ones that are really are bad). I have only worked on 14 jobs nonunion, most were 30-100 worker jobs were usualy only maybe 15% were good hard working journeymen, many that I had the pleasure to work around were low paid labors, some who had a real hard time making it to work on time if at all and when some were there you wished they were not so you could something done. We do have slugs in the IBEW, just as they do working for nonounion contractors is my point. I am no fan of this new CE/CW plan that IO has come up with,I think it devalues both union and nonunion journeymen but it makes it easy to get into the IBEW.




Noah, I know you've traveled all over the entire IBEW and have seen a lot but the consensus is the same, to many slugs, to many people who think the locals and the contractors owe them something and too many guy's doing the bare minimum and expecting the maximum. 

Millers right, it's not sustainable. We have what, 10-15% market share nation wide?? It's time for a major change in direction and attitude. The glory day's of 70-80% market share is long gone. The non union side has many skilled and knowledgeable men among it's ranks and they're working harder for less. This notion that they're all hacks is absurd. We have to start PROVING were the best in the industry. 


O.K my rant is over take it for what it's worth. And if your ever on the east coast and close to Philadelphia let me know, I'll buy you a drink.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

Seems like the slugs will eventually end up back on the books. Doesn't solve the problem of nobody wanting them though. From want I've seen in my neck of the woods the slugs are the minority though. Union electricians work as hard as non-union around here. Not a lot of work for anyone at the moment though. Union or non-union.


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

miller_elex said:


> Brothher Noah wants to keep the part of the Ibew that works like the Welfare line. Cynical? Don't cry your third generation hooey, I can smell the self-interest.


 2 jobs last year and 1 this year so yeah I see your point. I posted that I was a product of the problem that we as the IBEW had in the past of if you are not kin you will not get in.Please explain how you SMELL self interest? I remember somewhere in your post miller that you organized in well I say good for you especially if your intent is to help the IBEW. As far as the welfare line quote, please explain to me how picking your favorite workers is different from picking someone because they are kin??? I am sure you knew in advance that we have a book system that you wait your turn in the name of being fair, and now I am condemned because I do not wish to see us pitted against each other or calling the contractor to tell them how we would swallow to get a job.Miller do you know how long we have had this system, or even why?If we are a sick and wounded beast why are you a part of it?Brian the answer to your question is no to the meds and I do not drink, have not rode in a twinky mobile in a while either.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

B


> rother Noah;250898]*please explain to me how picking your favorite workers is different from picking someone because they are kin???*


Because the "favorite worker" is usually the hardest worker, something that should be rewarded. Just because your a hard worker doesn't mean your not a good union man. I for one like to think I'm both. 





> * we have a book system that you wait your turn in the name of being fair, and now I am condemned because I do not wish to see us pitted against each other or calling the contractor to tell them how we would swallow to get a job
> *


At one time this worked, now it seems it has been twisted to use AGAINST the membership and is the exact reason why so many "members" are "swallowing" for a job.



> .*Miller do you know how long we have had this system, or even why?If we are a sick and wounded beast why are you a part of it?*



This system has been around since the beginning. Some times things need to change. Just because the system is old, doesn't make it right.

I can't speak for Miller but I think he is much like myself, a dedicated union man who wants nothing but the best for OUR union and it's members. Sometimes you need an open mind and change to fix what's broken.


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

Thank you for your post Vic I understand your point of view but I disagree just because it is working in your local that it is the way to go. I have seen you on F&F therefore I know you are aware of what has happened in lu103. I know many out of Boston who have not worked in their local in years.In my local any local hand that has wanted a job could have it within a month or so for the last 30 years and we have had 5000 travelers working there between(1978-1987) we have the book system that is being scorned, that in itself does not prove its merit just a matter of local supply and demand, which could be said of your local. Many times I do not agree with BM's from whatever local I am working out of but that does not mean I want to erase the core IBEW leadership in order to get more self control over when and where I go to work(that is what you subscribing to) Why would we need a business manager if we got our own jobs?IF you feel this way then why belong to a union? if you are more concerned about how YOU go to work and for whom than about who we all are going to work for and how then why are you in the IBEW. I have made sacrifices for others without ever expecting a return, I only hope we all gain benefits as a whole.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

> Brother Noah said:
> 
> 
> > Thank you for your post Vic I understand your point of view but I disagree just because it is working in your local that it is the way to go. I have seen you on F&F therefore I know you are aware of what has happened in lu103.
> ...


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

slickvic277 said:


> B
> 
> Because the "favorite worker" is usually the hardest worker, something that should be rewarded. Just because your a hard worker doesn't mean your not a good union man. I for one like to think I'm both.
> Okay I agree that it benefit the contractor for the harder worker to get the job therefore should help the IBEW in the long run, but what happens when you Brother Vic get to old to keep up with the young bucks? Even though you are a good journeyman and try your hardest your just too slow so you do not go to work any more unless theres no one else left, really thats the life you want to subscrbe to.This discussion we are in the midst of is why laws were created to protect us by our past union Brothers and Sisters making sacrifices for us and yet some are being tempted by a tweak or twist here and there to make descrimination seem okay.This thread was started to complain about those on the job who do not do what they were paid to do, what they once swore to do.There are ways to deal with these people,it is not easy but there are legal ways to rectify these negative workers.
> I can see how being in your local and being able to go ahead of the book system can be intoxicating to those who have self worth, so I appreciate your view but if you could only work at half your pace(maybe an illness) therefore the contractors would exclude you from their personal books and you would be left with the IBEW book system which has not put anyone out in 3 years(just like Boston) You have busted your butt all these years been very productive and now you are sick and the contractors completely control who gets hired?Is this what you really want for all of us?


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Brother Noah said:


> slickvic277 said:
> 
> 
> > B
> ...


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

103 and 98 are 2 completely different locals. 103 is a free for all with a corrupt leadership. 98's system is fair and simple. Every single traveler I have ever met in my local admitted wanting the chance to find a job in their own local, the same way we can here. 





My point is just over your head. I'm not concerned with just ME. I'm concerned for the honest, hard working membership not the hanger on's.

Please don't preach sacrifice to me, I find it insulting.[/quote]

I have yet to work in your local but the only way I would want to bid my own job would be to Salt.We in the IBEW do have users,abusers,hanger on's as do the nonunion contractors.Thank you for your calm demeanor, we are having an interesting chat that most would have wigged over and not accomplished anything, and even though we do not agree, we have been able to express our views without hostility(thanks again) Years ago Vic I was on the other side of the counter and after a spat with the BM I decided to stay on the road(since1987) I have helped in any way I could where ever I have been (that is what I meant by sacrifices) As far as not understanding your post, I am contesting that if we are allowed to bid our own work we have no need for a BM therefore no need for a hall or even the IBEW. We can can just get a job with a contractor,not pay assessments, go from job to job without any hall knowing and when the contractor was low on work we would just lie in the weeds.I understand this may be a little far fetched but it sounds allot like when I worked nonunion.Once while working nonuniuon as a superintendent I got another job as a foreman working my days off for all time and half pay, so I do understand the allure to bidding your own work.


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

slickvic277 said:


> Brother Noah said:
> 
> 
> > We don't go ahead of the IBEW book in my local. YOU MUST SIGN THE BOOK IF YOU want to work no matter how your job is obtained.
> ...


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

> Brother Noah said:
> 
> 
> > 103 and 98 are 2 completely different locals. 103 is a free for all with a corrupt leadership. 98's system is fair and simple. Every single traveler I have ever met in my local admitted wanting the chance to find a job in their own local, the same way we can here.
> ...


[/QUOTE]


I'm talking about being able to find yourself a job and your talking about bidding your own work??????

Just because we have the option to obtain work on our own, doesn't make us "non union" or not in need of a union. The system is not quite as straight forward as I put it. ALL jobs go through the hiring agent, ALL jobs also go through the BM, SOJ or not you must report to the hall. Contractors are not allowed to abuse the system and neither are unscrupulous members.Our agreement is rock solid and our leadership fully represents the membership without favoritism or compromise. Having the ability to find a job in no way, shape, or form threatens our solidarity as a local. I for one thinks it only strengthens it. I just feel it's wrong to force a man to starve to death on a list that never moves. Keep it fair, 50/50, it works. 


I also came from the non union side. I was the one who got the men interested in organizing, even though I was younger then most of the other guy's I was nominated to be the union rep for the shop during the organizing campaign. And I still went through the locals apprenticeship.
I'm 100% for the IBEW, for the men and for a fair and democratic approach to unionism.

OMOV is definitely needed. I'm no fan of our international president.


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## Lone Crapshooter (Nov 8, 2008)

Brother Noah The one time I dealt with a organizer for 4+ months and he finally told me that I was over qualified , they did not do any industrial work out or that local and the fact that I was represented by a union he could not let me take the first class test.
The last time I talked to a organizer he told me that I would have to become totally separated from my employer apply for a UA position (that would mean at minimum a 50% pay cut) and wile I was working go through the apprenticeship selection process but nothing was guaranteed . 
The UA,CE,and CW are nothing more than union sponsored worker abuse that causes ill feelings on both sides of the fence.
The local in this area prides itself in being a COUNTRY CLUB LOCAL In the 70's when I tried to get in the apprenticeship program they would have 10 openings take in 8 sons a female and may be 1 outsider by accident I know all about it I was interviewed 5 times. Then they tell you it is fair!


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

Lone Crapshooter said:


> Brother Noah The one time I dealt with a organizer for 4+ months and he finally told me that I was over qualified , they did not do any industrial work out or that local and the fact that I was represented by a union he could not let me take the first class test.
> The last time I talked to a organizer he told me that I would have to become totally separated from my employer apply for a UA position (that mean at minimum a 50% pay cut) and wile I was working go through the apprenticeship selection process but nothing was guaranteed .
> The AU,CE,and CW are nothing more than union sponsored worker abuse that causes ill feelings on beth sides of the fence.
> The local in this area prides itself in being a COUNTRY CLUB LOCAL In the 70's when I tried to get in the apprenticeship program they would have 10 openings take in 8 sons a female and may be 1 outsider by accident I know all about it I was interviewed 5 times. Then they tell you it is fair!


I appreciate that you took the time to explain your hardships, I have a brother who applied in our local 5 years in a row to only be turned away(our grandfather was a one of the original members) He worked nonunion for a total of 7 years when he ran across an organizer on a job in Winston Salem North Carolina, after a day or two of chats my brother was given a test(87) he got his yellow ticket.My oldest son has been turned down the last 6 years(he refuses to travel) my youngest flew out here to California and got in the first try. Maybe going to a different area would work for you if the interest is strong enough to make the sacrifice of being away from home. If you have the desire give me a shout and let me know what local you have an interest in, I probably know someone in the area.Good luck to you.


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## Lone Crapshooter (Nov 8, 2008)

That will not work here . I would be classified as a in town traveler and would only work during 100% employment. Talked to a individual who went through IBEW apprenticeship in another local moved here owns a home in this jurisdiction and has tried on numerous occasions to transfer into this local . The answer is NO NO NO.

I also was told that I could talk to the national organizer but if I went that route I would never work in town regardless of how many travelers where here.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Brother Noah said:


> slickvic277 said:
> 
> 
> > B
> ...


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

brian john said:


> I do not know you from Adam?


Ummm yeah.... You'll have to take that up with my foreman. Whoops! Almost got burned on lunch, it starts in ten minutes, GOT TO GO pump and dump right away so I can be first in line to the nuker.

NOT! Slick doesn't come off as a slacker.

Noah probably moves like snake-sh1t though.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

brian john;251346]



> I do not know you from Adam and you might damn well be the best thing to electricity since Tesla


. 

Nobody here really knows anybody, now do they? I'm not the best thing since Tesla and have never claimed to be so. I'm an average electrician with an above average work ethic which has kept me employed while others around me have bit the dust.



> But I swear you come across like the king of the bench, a real BS'er touting the union line to cover your bum!


And you come off like a pompous-ego inflated know it all who is the be all end all in all things related to our industry. If you aint seen it then it doesn't happen.

But maybe I'm just mistaken and "totally wrong". 



> Please note I may be totally wrong but that is what I read from your post and the big question I like to ask those that post in this thread as often you do, do you ever post in the electrical section of this forum?


Quite frankly I post here as often as I do because I enjoy the back and forth, the arguments and the opinions of others that I would not be able to here outside of this forum. I find it amusing and fun and often silly.



> You know anything of substance pertaining to electricity?


I'm no Bob Badger or MDShunk and never claimed to be but I know a little, enough to be productive on any job I've ever walked on. You see the difference between some one like you and some one like me is I have no interest in the masturbating that goes on here at this site at times. I don't have to prove my electrical knowledge to you or anyone for that matter. I've helped others in different ways through some P.M.'s in the past and even get into the electrical discussion every once in a blue moon. But I enjoy this much more. 

When you masturbate do you fantasize about yourself?? Because you do think so much of yourself.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Slick I am laughing my ass off and owe you an apology. My rant was not meant for you! it was meant for another. So take my apology for what it is worth.

Oh and you post in the electrical section,


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

deleted ....


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

brian john said:


> Slick I am laughing my ass off and owe you an apology. My rant was not meant for you! it was meant for another. So take my apology for what it is worth.
> 
> Oh and you post in the electrical section,



:laughing::laughing::laughing::thumbup:

Ah, Man!! That is funny. I guess I owe you an apology as well.

My opinion of you just went up ten fold....FWIW.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

slickvic277 said:


> My opinion of you just went up ten fold....FWIW.


B. John is big pimpin, FO Sho'


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

miller_elex said:


> B. John is big pimpin, FO Sho'



_No Doubt._


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

brian john said:


> Brother Noah said:
> 
> 
> > I do not know you from Adam and you might damn well be the best thing to electricity since Tesla. But I swear you come across like the king of the bench, a real BS'er touting the union line to cover your bum!
> ...


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

Brother Noah said:


> brian john said:
> 
> 
> > Brian I have no claim to any fame that you are referring, but I hope you realize this post pertains to problems on the job that is not actually electrical.Why do you have some questions you wished answered? I believe when one changes topics there is a lack of confidence in the present matter.Thank you for your concern though.
> ...


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

John Valdes said:


> Is there some cool reason why you do not use a space between sentences? :no:



A product of the Text Message generation.:whistling2:


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

480sparky said:


> A product of the Text Message generation.:whistling2:


That's what I thought. Its a shame how easily the new generation can hack up the English language. To think I spent all those years in school learning correct punctuation.

Once again thanks.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

John Valdes said:


> That's what I thought. Its a shame how easily the new generation can hack up the English language. To think I spent all those years in school learning correct punctuation.
> 
> Once again thanks.



I dread the day the NEC is written like a TM.








​


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

slickvic277 said:


> :laughing::laughing::laughing::thumbup:
> 
> Ah, Man!! That is funny. I guess I owe you an apology as well.
> 
> My opinion of you just went up ten fold....FWIW.


You do not owe me an apology, I find I should avoid this section of the forum but it is like a train wreck I have to look then cannot help but jump in. Sometimes too fast, obviously.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

brian john said:


> You do not owe me an apology, I find I should avoid this section of the forum but it is like a train wreck I have to look then cannot help but jump in. Sometimes too fast, obviously.



Everyone who posts in this section is guilty of that, myself included.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

slickvic277 said:


> Everyone who posts in this section is guilty of that, myself included.


Something about the union VS non-union that raises the hairs on some folks neck.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

brian john said:


> Something about the union VS non-union that raises the hairs on some folks neck.



_Ya Think???_:laughing:


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

I think Brian and Slick are getting close to making out.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> I think Brian and Slick are getting close to making out.


 

I've seen many relationships start with conversations like they are having!:yes:


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

John Valdes said:


> That's what I thought. Its a shame how easily the new generation can hack up the English language. To think I spent all those years in school learning correct punctuation.
> 
> Once again thanks.


Ive been known to go "ee cummings" on my Blackberry. 

http://kirjasto.sci.fi/cummings.htm


*Humanity i love you because **
when you're hard up you pawn your 
intelligence to buy a drink. *
(from 'Humanity i love you', 1925)









.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> I think Brian and Slick are getting close to making out.



Jealous. I'm trying to make nice. Usually Brian explodes and tells me how much of a dope I am. :jester:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

slickvic277 said:


> Jealous. I'm trying to make nice. Usually Brian explodes and tells me how much of a dope I am. :jester:


I don't think you are a dope.

And I like your referral system


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

brian john;252774]


> I don't think you are a dope.


Is this the same Brian John that I know and love??? You must be an impostor.:jester:



> And I like your referral system


Me too:thumbsup:


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