# Keeping work to code



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

As electricians, our job is to install electrical apparatus to at least code minimums. But if you try to bring an existing structure to such a state when you’re there to install or fix something else, you better be doing it on your own time and dime. As contractors, we can’t afford to fix things outside of the scope on the job we were hired for.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Just open your own company, and then you can fix other's work and go broke too.


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## CarpyMT (Sep 12, 2021)

I did start my own company for that reason. I still help out other guys occasionally though, if it doesn't cost more money, or time really and its just something someone didn't know would you argue it? It seems that if I know the code and the other guy doesn't it's more about being right then it is about the safety of our community.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

I’m confused, you are an electrical contractor? And who’s work is it you’re trying to correct?


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## CarpyMT (Sep 12, 2021)

I am a journeyman and a contractor. I don't have a ton of work right now so I was helping out some other guys outfit. The fixes wouldn't cost money really maybe a cut in box? So I wouldn't say its like huge things but they are safety hazards, and frankly things I have seen fail inspections. I was really curious more so as the journeyman even do you just fix the stuff like that, or let the foreman/master be responsible?


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Since I work alone, if I see something that needs addressing, I tell the owner, give them my opinion and go from there. I don’t interact with other electricians.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

backstay said:


> I’m confused, you are an electrical contractor? And who’s work is it you’re trying to correct?


I smell horsechit


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

It depends. I see shoddy ceiling system about to crash down on peoples heads with no independent securing of the lay in fixtures, I'm reporting that to building management in writing so my ass is covered. Sometimes they ask me to fix it all up for them. I see a j-box in the ceiling tile and it has no cover, but I do, I put one in. There you go.


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## CarpyMT (Sep 12, 2021)

Ok thanks for your input! I am really new to being a journeyman (not even a year out) so I am still learning how to handle situations with higher ups. I struggle with boundaries in terms of when to stand up for yourself and when not to, so if you all have any other suggestions on that, even stuff like books I would greatly appreciate it!


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## CarpyMT (Sep 12, 2021)

Majewski said:


> I smell horsechit


I am not sure if that is directed at me? I would be happy to elaborate more if I am not articulating myself well.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

At a year in as a journeyman, maybe you aren’t the one to be telling others what’s code or not.


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## CarpyMT (Sep 12, 2021)

backstay said:


> At a year in as a journeyman, maybe you aren’t the one to be telling others what’s code or not.


That very well could be! Again I am just trying to learn so it is possible I am stepping out of bounds! That is why I figured I would ask!


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

What state allows one year journeymen to become Electrical Contractors Anyhow? Kansas? Florida?


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

macmikeman said:


> What state allows one year journeymen to become Electrical Contractors Anyhow? Kansas? Florida?


Pa for instance…. Where u dont have licenses


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## CarpyMT (Sep 12, 2021)

I have what is called a limited electrical contractors license in the state of Montana.


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## CarpyMT (Sep 12, 2021)

We have a required apprenticeship training program here (typically takes 4 years) as well, it is a pretty solid program imo. I've run into non licensed guys but that is not me 🤷‍♂️


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Where? Whitefish by any chance? I have a lifelong friend , all the way back to elementary school. Custom Builder in Whitefish. He may be able to swing you some work.


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## CarpyMT (Sep 12, 2021)

That's pretty cool! I would love to help thats several hours away though I am closer to the Big Sky area.


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## CarpyMT (Sep 12, 2021)

Where are you guys out of if I may ask? It seems like you have been around here for a while and have a lot of experience.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

CarpyMT said:


> Where are you guys out of if I may ask? It seems like you have been around here for a while and have a lot of experience.


Hes hawaii. Im russia.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

Boris Majewski^^^^^^^^^


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

joe-nwt said:


> Boris Majewski^^^^^^^^^


Da


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

joe-nwt said:


> Boris Majewski^^^^^^^^^


I go my BM to my friends


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

joe-nwt said:


> Boris Majewski^^^^^^^^^


..comrade


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

CarpyMT said:


> Where are you guys out of if I may ask? It seems like you have been around here for a while and have a lot of experience.


I come from Planet Macmikeman. Ask these guys. They know.


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

CarpyMT said:


> I am not sure if that is directed at me? I would be happy to elaborate more if I am not articulating myself well.


Obviously if you find something that is unsafe you would bring it to someone's attention like the owner of the building. Looking for code violations is a bit different unless it's assigned to you as a job function. It's hard not to see code violations in most places and it probably bugs someone that is conscientious but unless it's part of your scope you should probably not stir up the dust. I remember a guy that spent all his time looking for violations instead of working on what he was assigned to, so he took on the name of "Rocket Man" because he was always launching and getting pissed off when he found violations. Eventually this lead to a cal osha audit and we spent months looking for any little violation. KO seals in j-boxes, updating panel schedules and righting reports on any and every code violation we could find. He was laid off shortly after that so perhaps it's just not worth it for minor stuff.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Easy said:


> Obviously if you find something that is unsafe you would bring it to someone's attention like the owner of the building. Looking for code violations is a bit different unless it's assigned to you as a job function. It's hard not to see code violations in most places and it probably bugs someone that is conscientious but unless it's part of your scope you should probably not stir up the dust. I remember a guy that spent all his time looking for violations instead of working on what he was assigned to, so he took on the name of "Rocket Man" because he was always launching and getting pissed off when he found violations. Eventually this lead to a cal osha audit and we spent months looking for any little violation. KO seals in j-boxes, updating panel schedules and righting reports on any and every code violation we could find. He was laid off shortly after that so perhaps it's just not worth it for minor stuff.


STAY IN YOUR LAND


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

I feel your pain. As a licensed contractor for over 38 years I have worked in all types of scenarios. Many times I came across dangerous electrical violations and many times I got in trouble for bringing it to someone other than the person who signed my check. Nobody wants problems. Keep in mind if you are working for someone and you see something, don't touch it unless the boss knows about it and says so. It's a liability issue. You touch it then you own it without any compensation. When you work for your self then you can assume any liability that you want. A very difficult situation balancing negligence, liability, responsibility, your conscience, and making money. For a short time I was an electrical inspector. Many times I had to put blinders on when doing an inspection for one thing. Now I am back on my own only concerned about my work. I can't get upset with the crap work out there. I simply take a picture, document it and bring it to the person signing my check. It is now there responsibility. I don't like it but it is better than sitting home watching cartoons.


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## 205490 (Jun 23, 2020)

When working as an employee follow the chain of command.
When owner be diplomatic & articulate with those that are responsible.

As an employee you don't want to become the "shop cop:


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## 205490 (Jun 23, 2020)

After many years & earning a (modicum) of credibility, inspectors have written up additional work for me. Done properly & with reverence it has made all 3 parties happy


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Lane* english is hard for me


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## Wardenclyffe (Jan 11, 2019)

Majewski said:


> Lane* english is hard for me


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## dspiffy (Nov 25, 2013)

Do you mean unsafe, or safe but not up to code?


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

Majewski said:


> Hes hawaii. Im russia.


In Russia, woman picks out mail order husband. 

How’s life in that luxury Khrushchyovka?


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

Once I was in a basement doing some work, had another guy with me and I think he was trying to impress me by pointing out all the violations down there, I finally told him….put the blinders on and focus on the task at hand, we don’t have time to rewire the whole house. If it’s not a safety hazard it’s not our problem.

When I talk to HO I also try not to bash other ECs either, I just say… I would have done it different, don’t know why the other guy did this, I wasn’t here with him….or things like that. Don’t want to throw stones cause I have windows on my house too, or something like that.


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

If we are talking new install you can argue that someone has not done there part to code but at the end of the day you have to be 100% sure you are correct and honestly that's the inspectors job.

On rehabs its more complicated as you would have to know what code was being used during the time of construction. basically if its not immediately life threatening then im not paying that much attention. i will for example put wire nuts on exposed wires.


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## CarpyMT (Sep 12, 2021)

Awesome! Thanks everyone for sharing your opinion and experience. Sounds like I am probably being a little over cautious!


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

yankeejoe1141 said:


> Once I was in a basement doing some work, had another guy with me and I think he was trying to impress me by pointing out all the violations down there, I finally told him….put the blinders on and focus on the task at hand, we don’t have time to rewire the whole house. If it’s not a safety hazard it’s not our problem.
> 
> When I talk to HO I also try not to bash other ECs either, I just say… I would have done it different, don’t know why the other guy did this, I wasn’t here with him….or things like that. Don’t want to throw stones cause I have windows on my house too, or something like that.


I like what you said about we have windows also.


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

yankeejoe1141 said:


> When I talk to HO I also try not to bash other ECs either, I just say… I would have done it different, don’t know why the other guy did this, I wasn’t here with him….or things like that. Don’t want to throw stones cause I have windows on my house too, or something like that.


I often say previous installer "forgot "

For example when taking down fixture and its mounted to surface, no box:

"They forgot the box, I'll have to put one in"


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

460 Delta said:


> In Russia, woman picks out mail order husband.
> 
> How’s life in that luxury Khrushchyovka?


Good. Just mining crypto


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

Majewski said:


> Good. Just mining crypto


I see. I thought in Russia that crypto mined you. Thanks for enlightening me.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

460 Delta said:


> I see. I thought in Russia that crypto mined you. Thanks for enlightening me.


yup its SHOCKING


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

I’ve seen all kinds of workmanship.

There is a principle that if you touch it, you own it. Existing work and all that. If I’m there on fixed bud which I usually am I’m not going to open Pandora’s box on my own.

Best thing to do is if it’s a serious issue point it out to the customer using non-Code terms…explain what’s wrong with it. If they change order it, cha-ching you just made extra on the job. If not just shut up.

On the minor stuff often we just do it anyways. Like when you open a control panel and it looks like it had electrical mice nesting in it with wiring going everywhere, all the tie wraps cut off, wires strung all over not in wireways. It usually takes 10-15 minutes to put it all back and vacuum/purge the giant pile of dead fuses and parts laying in the bottom and fix all the stuff that was I clipped off the DIN and left hanging. The customer is always surprised to see it looking like new again.


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

paulengr said:


> On the minor stuff often we just do it anyways. Like when you open a control panel and it looks like it had electrical mice nesting in it with wiring going everywhere, all the tie wraps cut off, wires strung all over not in wireways. It usually takes 10-15 minutes to put it all back and vacuum/purge the giant pile of dead fuses and parts laying in the bottom and fix all the stuff that was I clipped off the DIN and left hanging. The customer is always surprised to see it looking like new again.


That’s a way to build good rapport with a customer, a 30 minute freebie can go a long ways. A before and after pic to show them helps also.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

460 Delta said:


> That’s a way to build good rapport with a customer, a 30 minute freebie can go a long ways. A before and after pic to show them helps also.


Remember, " No good deed goes unpunished". I once came across a sub panel in a commercial building with a main bonding jumper installed. There was a Blue, Black, Red, and white coming through the EMT. The panel was securely mounted to a steel column. This was the fourth panel from the MDP. I said this is not right and isolated the white from the greens. I did not know the white was dead ended in a pull box 50 feet away. They were getting the neutral through the building steel. When I removed the bonding jumper, it sent 208 to many of the 120 volt loads. I used a digital meter and read 120 volts on all legs to the neutral but the rubber pigtail and light bulb said different. Was this a case to look the other way and not doing the correction?


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

kb1jb1 said:


> Remember, " No good deed goes unpunished". I once came across a sub panel in a commercial building with a main bonding jumper installed. There was a Blue, Black, Red, and white coming through the EMT. The panel was securely mounted to a steel column. This was the fourth panel from the MDP. I said this is not right and isolated the white from the greens. I did not know the white was dead ended in a pull box 50 feet away. They were getting the neutral through the building steel. When I removed the bonding jumper, it sent 208 to many of the 120 volt loads. I used a digital meter and read 120 volts on all legs to the neutral but the rubber pigtail and light bulb said different. Was this a case to look the other way and not doing the correction?


That’s a tough one, a little more critical than the resi basements I’m in and boxes are missing covers or connectors or are overstuffed or things of that nature.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

kb1jb1 said:


> I used a digital meter and read 120 volts on all legs to the neutral but the rubber pigtail and light bulb said different. Was this a case to look the other way and not doing the correction?


That is a tough one. So do you still use a digital meter with high-Z?


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

splatz said:


> That is a tough one. So do you still use a digital meter with high-Z?


For now most of what I do only requires a wiggy type. I also still use the old rubber pigtail when I can get incandescent light bulbs.


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## BillyMac59 (Sep 12, 2019)

If I can get back to the OPs original point of pointing out code violations .... my first thought is what are you trying to accomplish? Is the supposed infraction a life-and-death issue or are you sharing your superior code knowledge with your superiors? Is the installation relatively new or are looking at something that was legal when installed but may not meet today's code. Be careful on how you present your discoveries. Everybody likes someone who can help bring in more money but nobody likes a wissa**.


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## BillF (Mar 24, 2021)

CarpyMT said:


> I am a journeyman and a contractor. I don't have a ton of work right now so I was helping out some other guys outfit. The fixes wouldn't cost money really maybe a cut in box? So I wouldn't say its like huge things but they are safety hazards, and frankly things I have seen fail inspections. I was really curious more so as the journeyman even do you just fix the stuff like that, or let the foreman/master be responsible?


Do the same thing that an auto mechanic would do. Make a note of the issue, tell the customer, and offer to do it for the appropriate fee. Since you are contracting, have the actual owner of the shop do the contacting. They are then on notice that the previous work was faulty and that they can get it fixed.


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## GladMech (Sep 18, 2020)

kb1jb1 said:


> They were getting the neutral through the building steel. When I removed the bonding jumper, it sent 208 to many of the 120 volt loads.


For many years (and long before I was licensed) I was the sole support for an early 50s 230 delta building. There were several subpanels using the building steel as the neutral. What are you going to do if the main is 400 ft away? And the existing 3 phase w/o a neutral wiring is 20 ft up over a LOT of junk in the way. Grit your teeth, test for voltage to all of the boxes, and call it ~ok.


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## Matt Hermanson (Jul 18, 2009)

CarpyMT said:


> Hey all I am a newer journeyman who is learning how to properly handle myself within companies. I keep getting into trouble for wanting to fix code mistakes on jobs typically stuff to do with the tenets safety, and I was wondering how everyone handles situations like these. It feels like I am constantly having to argue with other electricians to make sure our work is safe.


Well . . . .
I can tell you that most of the others on here are far more polite and immensely more diplomatic than I.
Usually I get stuck with the clusterfuck from hell . . . .
And start a rant about having no idea what the F these twats were smokin' . . . .
Then going for a half hour walk to cool off.


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## dontreadthis (Jan 17, 2021)

backstay said:


> At a year in as a journeyman, maybe you aren’t the one to be telling others what’s code or not.


I completely disagree. What I see all the time is guys fresh off their jman exam, or just out of their apprenticeship having studied a lot very recently, generally know code stuff much better than the guys one or two decades out from that point. They just forget it all because they don’t keep up with it and don’t do continuing education. There are exceptions but that’s generally what I see everywhere. If they’re self-conscious when corrected by a younger guy, that’s not your problem. Any time a guy corrects me code-wise, I could not be more grateful. He just made me more knowledgeable.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

dontreadthis said:


> I completely disagree. What I see all the time is guys fresh off their jman exam, or just out of their apprenticeship having studied a lot very recently, generally know code stuff much better than the guys one or two decades out from that point. They just forget it all because they don’t keep up with it and don’t do continuing education. There are exceptions but that’s generally what I see everywhere. If they’re self-conscious when corrected by a younger guy, that’s not your problem. Any time a guy corrects me code-wise, I could not be more grateful. He just made me more knowledgeable.


if they didnt do their ce then they arent sparkys are they? seems like a moot point


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## Forge Boyz (Nov 7, 2014)

GladMech said:


> For many years (and long before I was licensed) I was the sole support for an early 50s 230 delta building. There were several subpanels using the building steel as the neutral. What are you going to do if the main is 400 ft away? And the existing 3 phase w/o a neutral wiring is 20 ft up over a LOT of junk in the way. Grit your teeth, test for voltage to all of the boxes, and call it ~ok.


Install an isolation transformer at the panel to derive a nuetral.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

Majewski said:


> if they didnt do their ce then they arent sparkys are they? seems like a moot point


Not all states require CE units.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

460 Delta said:


> Not all states require CE units.


that makes his point even more useless lol


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

Majewski said:


> that makes his point even more useless lol


Expound please.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

dontreadthis said:


> I completely disagree. What I see all the time is guys fresh off their jman exam, or just out of their apprenticeship having studied a lot very recently, generally know code stuff much better than the guys one or two decades out from that point. They just forget it all because they don’t keep up with it and don’t do continuing education. There are exceptions but that’s generally what I see everywhere. If they’re self-conscious when corrected by a younger guy, that’s not your problem. Any time a guy corrects me code-wise, I could not be more grateful. He just made me more knowledgeable.


OP is not talking about pointing out code violations. He’s bitching because they aren’t fixing them after he points them out. And where I’m from we have 16 hours CE to renew our license.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Forge Boyz said:


> Install an isolation transformer at the panel to derive a nuetral.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


Ok so now you got to run a gec as well............


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## Forge Boyz (Nov 7, 2014)

macmikeman said:


> Ok so now you got to run a gec as well............


How about the building steel?

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

macmikeman said:


> Ok so now you got to run a gec as well............





Forge Boyz said:


> How about the building steel?


If building steel has been working as the neutral all this while, at least you're pretty sure that building's steel is a good low impedance path back to the service...









GEC required at a transformer


This might seem like a very basic question but here goes. When is a Grounding Electrode Required at a transformer. Is it the size of the transformer? Type of transformer? Maximum voltage? Is it the function of the equipment the transformer is used for? Or is it a combination of factors? Don't...




www.electriciantalk.com


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

splatz said:


> If building steel has been working as the neutral all this while, at least you're pretty sure that building's steel is a good low impedance path back to the service...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What would concern me would be the possibility of a step potential shock, say from someone touching a loose purlin and a post at the a same time.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

splatz said:


> If building steel has been working as the neutral all this while, at least you're pretty sure that building's steel is a good low impedance path back to the service...





460 Delta said:


> What would concern me would be the possibility of a step potential shock, say from someone touching a loose purlin and a post at the a same time.


Oh don't get me wrong, I am not suggesting that it's acceptable, I'd be completely alarmed if I found a building set up like this. I was just saying, not all building steel is suitable for a bonding jumper, but that place probably is.


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## SoCalElectric (Jun 27, 2021)

I work residential with an electrical contractor, and anytime we’re working on a job, if I come across something that looks sketchy, I snap a photo, and at the end of the day, give him a quick rundown, and show him the photos, if he requests it. He then decides whether to tell the client or not, but sells it as additional work, not part of the current project. He explains why it’s not to code, what the risks might be if not fixed, sometimes minor risks, sometimes major risks, and then let’s the client make the decision. We’re not out here to do free work without compensation, so unless it’s an immediate hazard, like you find wires smoking, don’t do free work.


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