# Notching Floor



## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

Trying to figure out what do with these wires. 

Is it legal to make a little notch in the floor with nail plates to get over to the wall ?










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## bostonPedro (Nov 14, 2017)

Is it a load bearing wall? 
If so there are rules on what you can do and its different for the locale and some may take it seriously. 
I would connect the 2 holes in the wall using a dremel and chisel and notch from the floor to the wall to pull those wires into the wall


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

What are we looking at between the hole in the floor and the holes in the bottom plate? Is there a joist or beam there? What I'm thinking is connecting the holes.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

MikeFL said:


> What are we looking at between the hole in the floor and the holes in the bottom plate? Is there a joist or beam there? What I'm thinking is connecting the holes.




Joist in wall bottom plate, connecting holes will require nail plates in floor.










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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

I guess those are homeruns you don't want to repull? What's below?


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

This is a large remodel/addition job where the GC decided not to have electricians present when they chopped out the roof and built the second floor... cutting literally every wire rising up!

We have all sorts of goodies to deal with , so if I can find and easy way to remedy this situation it would be nice. 

Below is a finished kitchen, however I can open up any wall I want to ..... just trying to lighten my load. 


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

WronGun said:


> This is a large remodel/addition job where the GC decided not to have electricians present when they chopped out the roof and built the second floor... cutting literally every wire rising up!


Do it right & charge large!
Bad planning on his part isn't an emergency on yours!


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

I just don't see why the cables were brought up in the first place only to go back down.

Were they trying to get over a structural beam or something?

I'm with Bird Dog on the 'charge large' part!


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

Bird dog said:


> Do it right & charge large!
> Bad planning on his part isn't an emergency on yours!




That would be my normal approach , either way im charging large. I just didn’t account for all the Damage they shouldn’t of done.

I have lifts getting dropped off to another job Wednesday. So at this point I’m just trying to get in and out. 

Regardless , I’m not looking to hack anything just trying to figure whats acceptable. 


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

WronGun said:


> That would be my normal approach , either way im charging large. I just didn’t account for all the Damage they shouldn’t of done.
> 
> I have lifts getting dropped off to another job Wednesday. So at this point I’m just trying to get in and out.
> 
> ...


Jbox with a blank cover. In the ceiling below probably less noticeable.

Cut out a whole bunch of wood to lay the wires down below & in wall. May have to use one or two large jbox covers for nail guards if allowed NEC wise (1/16th(?) inch).


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

WronGun said:


> That would be my normal approach , either way im charging large. I just didn’t account for all the Damage they shouldn’t of done.
> 
> I have lifts getting dropped off to another job Wednesday. *So at this point I’m just trying to get in and out. *
> 
> Regardless , I’m not looking to hack anything just trying to figure whats acceptable.


*Don't trip over your own feet grasshopper!*


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Drywall is cheap. Cut a hole from below and do it right. So many electricians are afraid of making holes in finished drywall. Then the plumber comes in and cuts a huge one. Patching big,square holes are easy and cheap especially when there will already be drywallers on site. Tell them there is no choice, make your life easy. Chiseling away at the floor and mounting cover plates is hack and will take longer than opening up the ceiling from below and doing it right.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

eddy current said:


> Drywall is cheap. Cut a hole from below and do it right. So many electricians are afraid of making holes in finished drywall. Then the plumber comes in and cuts a huge one. Patching big,square holes are easy and cheap especially when there will already be drywallers on site. Tell them there is no choice, make your life easy. Chiseling away at the floor and mounting cover plates is hack and will take longer than opening up the ceiling from below and doing it right.


Just cut out a piece of subfloor from joist to joist.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

99cents said:


> Just cut out a piece of subfloor from joist to joist.


Drywall blades are so much cheaper and you won't cause a structural issue....


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Drywall blades are so much cheaper and you won't cause a structural issue....


GC "what do you mean I have to sister the joist?" :vs_laugh:


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Drywall blades are so much cheaper and you won't cause a structural issue....




As you can see it’s basically already notched. I would notch it some more , throw a plate on it and be done. 

It’s a night and day scenario from opening up
Walls pulling apart a 4-gang switch box , then rerouting wires around god knows whatever is on underside.... im guessing it’s not a cake walk considering they did this loopdyloop to begin with 


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

WronGun said:


> As you can see it’s basically already notched.* I would notch it some more , throw a plate on it and be done. *
> 
> It’s a night and day scenario from opening up
> Walls pulling apart a 4-gang switch box , then rerouting wires around god knows whatever is on underside.... im guessing it’s not a cake walk considering they did this loopdyloop to begin with


And it's a complete hack repair.

I'd fire any guy working for me that did that type half assed job.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

MechanicalDVR said:


> And it's a complete hack repair.
> 
> 
> 
> I'd fire any guy working for me that did that type half assed job.




Ok that’s the opinion I was looking for. 

I was debating whether or not it was worth all the work to move the wires a couple inches into the wall. 

I still need to investigate why this was even done in the first place ? There has to be a reason , why would someone come up to the floor above just to loop back down ..... strange


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Drywall blades are so much cheaper and you won't cause a structural issue....


We do it all the time. Set your circular saw to subfloor depth and have at 'er. Just last week we peeled back carpet and sliced the floor open. If you're lucky, the plumbers have already opened the floor for their stuff.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

WronGun said:


> Ok that’s the opinion I was looking for.
> 
> I was debating whether or not it was worth all the work to move the wires a couple inches into the wall.
> 
> I still need to investigate why this was even done in the first place ? There has to be a reason , why would someone come up to the floor above just to loop back down ..... strange


I guess nobody wanted to say it to you.

That's why I asked if there was a beam or something they tried to jump over.

If that's the case the method they used was also hack.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

99cents said:


> We do it all the time. Set your circular saw to subfloor depth and have at 'er. Just last week we peeled back carpet and sliced the floor open. If you're lucky, the plumbers have already opened the floor for their stuff.


I hear what you are saying but between cutting a floor and cutting drywall, it's going to be the drywall for me hands down everytime.

When the floor squeaks in the future you know what will be said.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

MechanicalDVR said:


> I guess nobody wanted to say it to you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I’m just going to open the floor up
And look on Monday. After what the builder did , I’m not hesitating one bit to keep a Sawzall with a 12”’blade strapped by my side 

One thing good I will say about the GC is he is ok with me opening whatever i need to 


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

WronGun said:


> I’m just going to open the floor up
> And look on Monday. After what the builder did , I’m not hesitating one bit to keep a Sawzall with a 12”’blade strapped by my side
> 
> One thing good I will say about the GC is he is ok with me opening whatever i need to
> ...


I would tell the GC to open the floor.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

99cents said:


> I would tell the GC to open the floor.




Excellent call !


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

MechanicalDVR said:


> I hear what you are saying but between cutting a floor and cutting drywall, it's going to be the drywall for me hands down everytime.
> 
> When the floor squeaks in the future you know what will be said.


Screw that bastid down good and it won't squeak.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

WronGun said:


> One thing good I will say about the GC is he is ok with me opening whatever i need to
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Then why didn’t you just open up the floor or ceiling right away or have him do it? There should never have been a “notch the floor” option. 
Would have taken less time to open the floor and find out what you need to do right away than it took to take a picture of it and start this thread. Lol


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

My friend Gus can take care of that real quick


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

MikeFL said:


> My friend Gus can take care of that real quick
> https://youtu.be/M6X00iZTYbk


Wish they made a Ditch Witch that big.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

eddy current said:


> Then why didn’t you just open up the floor or ceiling right away or have him do it? There should never have been a “notch the floor” option.
> Would have taken less time to open the floor and find out what you need to do right away than it took to take a picture of it and start this thread. Lol




I left it on the back burner for a bit ...this is our first day upstairs..... we remodeled below first. 

Now that most of the rough is done. We will now tackle some of the small more challenging endeavors. 

Madness ..... I know 



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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

WronGun said:


> I left it on the back burner for a bit ...this is our first day upstairs..... we remodeled below first.
> 
> Now that most of the rough is done. We will now tackle some of the small more challenging endeavors.
> 
> ...







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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

WronGun said:


> I’m just going to open the floor up
> And look on Monday. After what the builder did , I’m not hesitating one bit to keep a Sawzall with a 12”’blade strapped by my side
> 
> One thing good I will say about the GC is he is ok with me opening whatever i need to


What space is below that floor?


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

99cents said:


> Screw that bastid down good and it won't squeak.


If you say so, I don't take unnecessary chances.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

MechanicalDVR said:


> What space is below that floor?




Kitchen area hallway 


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

MechanicalDVR said:


> If you say so, I don't take unnecessary chances.


Floors squeaked when nails came loose and the subfloor moved up and down on the nails. Screw that puppy down tight and it won't squeak.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

The squeaky floor wouldn’t be my problem to fix... the GC would definitely repair it the correct way regardless... 


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

WronGun said:


> Kitchen area hallway


I would cut the sheetrock.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

I would cut the drywall first before I peel that flooring up.

because I am not sure if you did start working remodel in kitchen area so might as well go for full bore on that.


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## matt1124 (Aug 23, 2011)

Around here a notch and nail plate would be acceptable.


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## CTshockhazard (Aug 28, 2009)

Why the hell would anyone cut open the drywall in a finished space before cutting open sub flooring in an unfinished space?


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

CTshockhazard said:


> Why the hell would anyone cut open the drywall in a finished space before cutting open sub flooring in an unfinished space?


If the ceiling below is already textured, opening it is plan C unless you need a JB in there. Then the cheesy fix is to put an HVAC grill over the hole.

Plumbers open up the floor all the time. The GC opens it up and closes it back up again. If he make a slight saw cut in the joist removing the subfloor, no big deal. An engineered joist is trickier than good old fashioned fir but that's on the GC.

Honestly, as electricians, we are way too anal. We fuss over a 7/8" hole and then the tinbasher drills a 6" hole beside it.

It's always best to be cautious and, if you don't know, you don't do it, but endless fussing won't help with completion.

If that was one or two cables, I wouldn't notch the joist, I would just hit it from above with a big Daredevil bit a couple of times. It doesn't have to be pretty. Notch out the plate with a Hackzall. Use a couple of 4 X 4 covers as protection plates. Shingle nails on each side of the 4 X 4 cover hold it on and are flatter than screws.

Since there are five cables here, it's a little more complicated.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

CTshockhazard said:


> Why the hell would anyone cut open the drywall in a finished space before cutting open sub flooring in an unfinished space?


Because in this case just burying the cables in the floor is total hack work.

You'd need a j-box below to pull them back and do it right.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

Ok we’ve concluded that it could be considered hack to notch and plate

BUT, is it legal/acceptable to use a plate in this situation. 

I’ve never had to run wires in a floor and normally would never consider it. 

Considering we are talking 2 inches , IMO it should be investigated. 

If it comes down to a blank plate or access panel in my kitchen ceiling , I would consider a notch/plate for this particular situation. 


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

WronGun said:


> Ok we’ve concluded that it could be considered hack to notch and plate
> 
> BUT, is it legal/acceptable to use a plate in this situation.
> 
> ...


If you need a JB (and I don't know if you do) put a 4 11/16" box in the wall, put on a plaster ring and make it into a receptacle location.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

WronGun said:


> Ok we’ve concluded that it could be considered hack to notch and plate
> 
> BUT, is it legal/acceptable to use a plate in this situation.
> 
> ...


Here , it would be perfectly legal to notch and then place 
nail plates over it.

I know of one incident that HVAC and/or plumber cut 
some beams below a first floor and later the GC sued them
for the repair because after job was done , HO went after GC
due to floor sank a bit when walked over.

Drywall was dropped below and it was discovered that they
had cut a load bearing below where a sunken floor had 
transitioned from a higher level to a lower level.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

lighterup said:


> Here , it would be perfectly legal to notch and then place
> nail plates over it.
> 
> I know of one incident that HVAC and/or plumber cut
> ...


This is why the GC does surgery. Last week we had to open floor for a wire pull. The GC pulled a guy off a different job and sent him over.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

99cents said:


> This is why the GC does surgery. Last week we had to open floor for a wire pull. The GC pulled a guy off a different job and sent him over.


This particular GC (2 brothers) are absentee GC's...didn't
see them , hear from them during the course of a job. 

The jobs ran themselves.

Customers (and I do mean all of their customers) hated their guts 
by the time the jobs were done.

I've seen them thrown off jobs a couple times from people 
who don't take that kind of crap.

I haven't done any jobs for them in almost 3 years and have
no interest in future work nor do I know the outcome of this
particular problem. 

I would caution Wrongun about cutting this particular 
beam below because it appears to be a wider load bearing 
beam per his attachment.


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## bostonPedro (Nov 14, 2017)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Drywall blades are so much cheaper and you won't cause a structural issue....


Notching doesnt cause structural issues if he follows the guidelines on notching. a 3/4 to 1 inch notch is totally reasonable and does little to the structure
http://buildingadvisor.com/notching-and-boring-joists/


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

bostonPedro said:


> Notching doesnt cause structural issues if he follows the guidelines on notching. a 3/4 to 1 inch notch is totally reasonable and does little to the structure
> http://buildingadvisor.com/notching-and-boring-joists/


You seem to miss the fact it sounds like he wants to notch the subfloor and not a joist.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

lighterup said:


> This particular GC (2 brothers) are absentee GC's...didn't
> see them , hear from them during the course of a job.
> 
> The jobs ran themselves.
> ...


Wrongun's client list is getting too big and this should be one of the first to get punted.


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## Kevin (Feb 14, 2017)

That guide only applies to traditional joists made from 2x material. If it's one of those tgi joists (I think that's the name... the 2x3 top and bottom with OSB in between) Then I don't think you can touch the top or bottom board. Only holes in the middle.


bostonPedro said:


> Notching doesnt cause structural issues if he follows the guidelines on notching. a 3/4 to 1 inch notch is totally reasonable and does little to the structure
> http://buildingadvisor.com/notching-and-boring-joists/


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Kevin_Essiambre said:


> That guide only applies to traditional joists made from 2x material. If it's one of those tgi joists (I think that's the name... the 2x3 top and bottom with OSB in between) Then I don't think you can touch the top or bottom board. Only holes in the middle.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


Good point! :thumbup:


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## CTshockhazard (Aug 28, 2009)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Because in this case just burying the cables in the floor is total hack work.
> 
> You'd need a j-box below to pull them back and do it right.


I'm in the exact opposite camp here.

Putting a jbox in someones kitchen ceiling instead of just notching some sub floor that is a few inches away from the sidewall of a hallway is hack.


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

We have very limited view of what's happening in that building. If OP can't disconnect the cables and reroute them, he can cut the wood and do his work and they can put new wood next to the existing wood. No box needed.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Kevin_Essiambre said:


> That guide only applies to traditional joists made from 2x material. If it's one of those tgi joists (I think that's the name... the 2x3 top and bottom with OSB in between) Then I don't think you can touch the top or bottom board. Only holes in the middle.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


No way you touch those upper and lower 2 X 3's. I had a job where the original electrician drilled through them. I took photos and notified the GC. I wasn't going to get blamed for that.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

CTshockhazard said:


> I'm in the exact opposite camp here.
> 
> Putting a jbox in someones kitchen ceiling instead of just notching some sub floor that is a few inches away from the sidewall of a hallway is hack.


Bottom line is if the first guy did his job correctly he wouldn't have been screwing over the guy to come in behind him to make a crap job right.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

CTshockhazard said:


> I'm in the exact opposite camp here.
> 
> Putting a jbox in someones kitchen ceiling instead of just notching some sub floor that is a few inches away from the sidewall of a hallway is hack.




I have to agree here. 

And if someone asked what would you do in your house ? I certainly would not want to see a 2 or 3 gang junction up in my kitchen ceiling. 

First , I got approval from GC

Then We neatly cut out a 6” square of the sub-floor and then a small notch to lay wires into. 

Installed a 4” Blank Metal plate 

GC added additional floor supports and patched the 6” subfloor hole. 

It took us 15 minutes , and him another 15 minutes. 

Saved a lot of time and possibly a headache.

I feel good [emoji1360]


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Now the God of Thunder will smite you with a lightning bolt  .


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## CTshockhazard (Aug 28, 2009)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Bottom line is if the first guy did his job correctly he wouldn't have been screwing over the guy to come in behind him to make a crap job right.


I hope you don't expect that to change any time soon. :biggrin:


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

CTshockhazard said:


> I hope you don't expect that to change any time soon. :biggrin:


If we all did our little part one day it might catch on!


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

Just an FYI...many states have state codes.
If your does , yu can go on line , pick residential code or commercial 
code and look for framing & engineering.

Then research where the topic of drilling , notching and cutting 
wood frame members...eventually you should find it , so you
don't have to be a carpenter to know this.

Ours has pictures in this topic for visual aides of where you 
can and cannot drill or notch


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