# Afraid to ask for an inspection



## saltydog (Jul 11, 2012)

Hello, I am a very qualified electrician but not licensed. Can some of you tell me if I need to fix all of the problems below BEFORE I switch power back to my home or can I just install the new meter, get the power back, and then address the other problems? I'm hesitant to start the work, then apply for an inspection before I know this.

My house was built in 1967 and has (copper) 12-2 with ground wire in cloth covering. This wiring I believe is still in good shape. However I have a fuse box I wish to replace with a 125 amp breaker box. The house also has a lever-type sub-panel off the meter feeding my window (220v) AC, and a breaker type box off the meter feeding my range, and dryer. Here are the problems as I see it:

1. junction boxes in attic have no covers
2. 220v line feeding my range is spliced in two locations with wire nuts (no covers on the junction boxes).
3. Sub-panel for AC needs to be taken out (lever not working correctly.
4. No GFCI in bath, kitchen and outdoor shed.
5. Line feeding outdoor shed is romex and needs to be UF cable
6. Too many receptacles on the four available fuses in this box. (the two remaining fuses are used for the outdoor shed (220v).
7. Feeds from the meter to the new breaker box will likely need to be replaced (lengthened) because of new design of box.

I would like to first just switch out the fuse box, remove the lever sub-panel and connect the AC to the new box, hook up my AC, fridg, and the other circuits. 

But I'm not sure the inspector will allow this. 

It would be very inconvenient for me to make all these changes before the power is turned on as I'll likely change all the wiring as well. I live in the home and need other work done which impacts the electrical work. It will take me about a month to do the work.

Can you guys give me some suggestions? Will the inspector require me to fix all these problems before power is restored? Do I need to change the cloth-covered wiring? I don't think so if it's in good shape.

Thank you,
Jack


----------



## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Just do it. Why would you want to pay the government for permission to repair screw ups in your home?


----------



## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

yeah really, I used my house to practice on! hahha Don't bother with permits.


----------



## saltydog (Jul 11, 2012)

Ok guys, I realize I'm a newbee in here but it's an electrical forum and safety is a big issue. I accept the need for inspection and don't mind paying for one. What I don't want is to switch out the box, make my hookups and then have the inspector ask, "can I see your attic and back-yard shed" and then come back and say, "sorry, you got major problems and need to fix them before I'll release your home to the power company and then I don't have power for weeks which would be terribly inconvenient then to make the fixes.

I've been doing electrical work for about 30 years and I see nothing wrong with just geting the breaker box permitted, turn the power back on, and then fix the problems above in an order and safe maner.

Do you guys agree?


----------



## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

saltydog said:


> Ok guys, I realize I'm a newbee in here but it's an electrical forum and safety is a big issue. I accept the need for inspection and don't mind paying for one. What I don't want is to switch out the box, make my hookups and then have the inspector ask, "can I see your attic and back-yard shed" and then come back and say, "sorry, you got major problems and need to fix them before I'll release your home to the power company and then I don't have power for weeks which would be terribly inconvenient then to make the fixes.
> 
> I've been doing electrical work for about 30 years and I see nothing wrong with just geting the breaker box permitted, turn the power back on, and then fix the problems above in an order and safe maner.
> 
> Do you guys agree?


What are you waiting for ? I don't even have a permit or underwriters for my service . Don't plan on getting one either. Does an auto mechanic remove his own tires to check his brake pads before applying an inspection sticker on his own car?


----------



## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

If you know what you are doing, safety shouldn't be an issue: it's built in when you do the work; if you have questions about anything, then you should not proceed until you get them answered correctly. Know any EC's? Have him come over and inspect it for free.


----------



## saltydog (Jul 11, 2012)

Shockdoc said:


> What are you waiting for ? I don't even have a permit or underwriters for my service . Don't plan on getting one either. Does an auto mechanic remove his own tires to check his brake pads before applying an inspection sticker on his own car?


I'm pretty sure I need a permit and inspection to switch-out the fuse box for where I live and I believe that's a good idea. However I'm affraid if I just switch out the box and reconnect the circuits, the inspector will see my entire home (900 sq ft) only has four circuits, and say, "ain't no way I'm going to allow you to switch back the power cus' you got two few circuits."

I really just don't know what to do about this other than fix everything first which is really just too inconvenient especially in July.


----------



## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Perform an illusion- stick several circuits from panel into attic/crawl etc and cap off. When dealing with authorities , a good stage and act is all one needs to get by.


----------



## saltydog (Jul 11, 2012)

Shockdoc said:


> Perform an illusion- stick several circuits from panel into attic/crawl etc and cap off. When dealing with authorities , a good stage and act is all one needs to get by.


Sorry Shockdoc, afraid I just can't do that not to mention he may ask to look in the attic and see all that goin' on. Also, I've been away from the NEC for about 15 years so I don't know if the inspector would require I change-out the four cloth-sheeted wiring circuits with romex. I do plan to switch them out eventually but don't wish to do that now.

Maybe the best thing is to schedule a pre-inspection first and just talk to the inspector. Problem is I don't trust them. Could tell me one thing then when I do the work, tell me something else and then I'm left out in the heat with no AC.


----------



## k_buz (Mar 12, 2012)

I don't agree at all. There are issues involved other than just the permit. An unpermitted service change and a fire could be financially devastating to you and your family.

IF you are allowed to do work on your own home in your community, then go to the building department/electrical inspector and tell them what is going on. Tell them what you plan on doing and how you intend on fixing things.

In my area, homeowners are not allowed to do electrical work on their own home or pull a permit. When we pull a permit for a service change, that is all that is looked at. If the inspector walks thru the home and finds serious code violations or safety hazards, he may require them to be fixed, but usually he writes them up separately and passes the service.


----------



## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

The best person to ask is the inspector. Don't guess as to what he expects, ask, he (or she) will be eager to tell you.

I would think the AHJ would not have any problems with you changing out the service, final that permit and get power turned on, then pull a separate permit for repairs (if necessary). I just can't imagine the AHJ wanting a months worth of work completed before releasing the service for connection by the PoCo.


----------



## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

hardworkingstiff said:


> The best person to ask is the inspector. Don't guess as to what he expects, ask, he (or she) will be eager to tell you.
> 
> I would think the AHJ would not have any problems with you changing out the service, final that permit and get power turned on, then pull a separate permit for repairs (if necessary). I just can't imagine the AHJ wanting a months worth of work completed before releasing the service for connection by the PoCo.


yep, here they will give you temp power until the final is scheduled.


----------



## saltydog (Jul 11, 2012)

hardworkingstiff said:


> The best person to ask is the inspector. Don't guess as to what he expects, ask, he (or she) will be eager to tell you.
> 
> I would think the AHJ would not have any problems with you changing out the service, final that permit and get power turned on, then pull a separate permit for repairs (if necessary). I just can't imagine the AHJ wanting a months worth of work completed before releasing the service for connection by the PoCo.


Ok, just got off the phone with the inspector. You are spot-on! He was very accomodating and agreed to permit the box switch-out, get that inspected, then I can turn back the power on and address the other issues separately.

Thanks guys. I'll let you know how it goes.


----------



## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

saltydog said:


> Ok, just got off the phone with the inspector. You are spot-on! He was very accomodating and agreed to permit the box switch-out, get that inspected, then I can turn back the power on and address the other issues separately.
> 
> Thanks guys. I'll let you know how it goes.


Glad it worked out for you. Post a couple of pictures of old vs new when you do it.


----------



## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

saltydog said:


> Ok, just got off the phone with the inspector. You are spot-on! He was very accomodating and agreed to permit the box switch-out, get that inspected, then I can turn back the power on and address the other issues separately.


This is the whole point. 
If you call him in to inspect JUST the service he CANNOT say _"ain't no way I'm going to allow you to switch back the power cus' you got two few circuits."_


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

I have always found electrical inspectors.. after NYBFU went belly up.. :thumbsup:.. easy to deal with..

Talk to them the same way you would talk to anyone else and work it it.. they are human also.. :thumbsup:

It is when guys try to be slick and play them for a fool that problems start..


----------



## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

Any thing you mess with will have to be brought up to code. Will he allow the junction boxes in the attic?? You might be okay if you leave it alone.


----------



## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

Go to a 150 amp service,complete.


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

bobelectric said:


> Go to a 150 amp service,complete.


A (150) is a waste of money.. for around $150 more you can get (200) amp..


----------



## saltydog (Jul 11, 2012)

Hey guys. I just bought a 150 amp box mostly because I neglected to mention I have two sheds, one of which is a large work shop. Didn't see the comment about using 200 amp before that. I really have a small house (900 sq ft without central air) so didn't think I needed anything much more than 125 so I added another 25 for the shop (no 220 v circuits). However if I ever add central air, I may have an issue but I can always sub off the meter for that if I have to.


----------



## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

150 amp service isn't the same as a 150 amp box you know?


----------



## saltydog (Jul 11, 2012)

kaboler said:


> 150 amp service isn't the same as a 150 amp box you know?


Hello Kaboler. I believe I understand what you mean by that but I'd like to be sure: I certainly have no need for a 150 amp circuit. I think 60 amp for central air is the largest (common) amp rating for a residential home that doesn't have a need for some special equipment. So, the largest amp rating for my home is going to be a 40 amp circuit for my range, a 30 amp for my window AC, may put a 30 amp dryer later, other minor devices, and my shop which only uses 110v. So I think I'll be ok with a 150 amp box right?


----------



## big vic (Jan 23, 2012)

Just because you have been doing electrical work for 30 years does not make you an electrician. I have been brushing my teeth for my whole life.....does that make me a dentist?


----------



## Aegis (Mar 18, 2011)

The house is working fine as is, so leave the panel for now and fix all the problems on your list over the next month or two. Once you get everything fixed then get the permit/inspection on your new panel. Then like you said if he looks at the rest of your place everything is in order. 

If you do the panel first most inspectors I know wont shut u down for those problems, they'll want them fixed but they realize you still have to live.


----------



## Aegis (Mar 18, 2011)

big vic said:


> Just because you have been doing electrical work for 30 years does not make you an electrician. I have been brushing my teeth for my whole life.....does that make me a dentist?


lmao


----------



## Bootss (Dec 30, 2011)

Upgrade service to 200 amps, then you can start adding circuits in the kitchen, microwave bathroom, shed, whatever else you need circuits for.


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

love the $7500 cap>

http://brgov.com/dept/dpw/inspections/RPermitInfo.htm

~CS~


----------



## k_buz (Mar 12, 2012)

> However if I ever add central air, I may have an issue but I can always sub off the meter for that if I have to.


No, it doesn't work that way. If you have to add a sub because the service is full, feeding a sub from the meter won't do a darn bit of good, the service is still overloaded. Secondly, most meter sockets (that I deal with) under 320A aren't rated for double taps.

I was with you in your first couple posts, but as you keep talking the more I feel you know just enough to be dangerous.


----------



## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

wendon said:


> Any thing you mess with will have to be brought up to code. Will he allow the junction boxes in the attic?? You might be okay if you leave it alone.


That's not true everywhere.


----------



## JS_Electric (Mar 31, 2012)

inspector will not allow any illegal or dangerously installed things. a good electrician http://www.jselectricco.comalways takes care of these things.


----------



## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

JS_Electric said:


> inspector will not allow any illegal or dangerously installed things. a good electrician always takes care of these things.


And a good businessman will make sure he gets paid for the work.


----------



## jefft110 (Jul 7, 2010)

He lives in Louisiana with no central air??

You all have been trolled.....:laughing:


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

JS_Electric said:


> inspector will not allow any illegal or dangerously installed things. a good electrician http://www.jselectricco.comalways takes care of these things.


watch what they do when $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ of Federal funds roll into town JS


it's absolutely disheartening


~CS~


----------



## bauler (Jan 2, 2008)

Call in a home inspector, they're experts


----------



## RMatthis (Nov 9, 2009)

k_buz said:


> I don't agree at all. There are issues involved other than just the permit. An unpermitted service change and a fire could be financially devastating to you and your family.
> 
> IF you are allowed to do work on your own home in your community, then go to the building department/electrical inspector and tell them what is going on. Tell them what you plan on doing and how you intend on fixing things.
> 
> In my area, homeowners are not allowed to do electrical work on their own home or pull a permit. When we pull a permit for a service change, that is all that is looked at. If the inspector walks thru the home and finds serious code violations or safety hazards, he may require them to be fixed, but usually he writes them up separately and passes the service.


What he said. That's the same in Illinois too, but some inspectors will walk around the house and look for ungrounded outlets. This is not the norm though. They usually only look at the service. 

You should have a permit BEFORE you start any work and they may not give you one if you don't have a licence and bond... so you may need a buddy to help you out of this one. 

Don't be afraid of the inspectors. They are there to serve the community and good guys to know if you plan on doing future work in your town. Get the permit, finish the work and call for an inspection. 

If you don't, that's when things can get sticky. You'll come home from work one day to find out the Power Co. took your drop away and it's weeks before it gets restored.


----------



## RMatthis (Nov 9, 2009)

bauler said:


> Call in a home inspector, they're experts


:laughing:


----------



## hooch (Sep 18, 2010)

k_buz said:


> I don't agree at all. There are issues involved other than just the permit. An unpermitted service change and a fire could be financially devastating to you and your family.
> 
> IF you are allowed to do work on your own home in your community, then go to the building department/electrical inspector and tell them what is going on. Tell them what you plan on doing and how you intend on fixing things.
> 
> In my area, homeowners are not allowed to do electrical work on their own home or pull a permit. When we pull a permit for a service change, that is all that is looked at. If the inspector walks thru the home and finds serious code violations or safety hazards, he may require them to be fixed, but usually he writes them up separately and passes the service.


in wisconsin a home owner cannot take out a permit? are you sure?


----------



## Victory Pete (Jun 29, 2012)

B4T said:


> A (150) is a waste of money.. for around $150 more you can get (200) amp..


 
When I started my business 20 years ago, everyone wanted 200 amp services. We put them in, they were not needed. Now I talk customers out of them and we put in 150 amp service, just the right size. I have a 200 amp in my house, I dont need it.

VP


----------



## Victory Pete (Jun 29, 2012)

bauler said:


> Call in a home inspector, they're experts


I just did work in a house that had a home inspection. My bid was based on "Page 7" of the report. There were so many other issues it was a nightmare to get the homeowners to pay for all the extras which equaled the original bid of $3000. It was hard just to get the homeowner to believe the work was needed. Home inspections can be useless! The house was previously owned by a "Know-it-all HandyMan", There was Zip cord in the walls, overloaded circuits all over the place, open connections with only tape, if at all on the connections. There was a circuit that was in the basement that had its feed from a subpanel but had its white grounded wire from another circuit in the main panel. What this means is that even though the circuit is off in the main panel, this circuit still carries current to the other circuit from the subpanel. So what appears to be a circuit that is off, it is still hot because of the return current through the white wires. It was situations like this that caused this job to be so lengthy.

VP


----------



## Caustic CC (Jan 31, 2013)

big vic said:


> Just because you have been doing electrical work for 30 years does not make you an electrician. I have been brushing my teeth for my whole life.....does that make me a dentist?


Does passing the "written" test and getting licensed make you an Electrician?
What really makes an Electrician?
Can you recommend a good power toothbrush?


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

bobelectric said:


> Go to a 150 amp service,complete.


 
200 actually comes out cheaper. Im serious.


----------



## Masselectrician1972 (Sep 20, 2013)

meadow said:


> 200 actually comes out cheaper. Im serious.


So true!


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Victory Pete said:


> When I started my business 20 years ago, everyone wanted 200 amp services. We put them in, they were not needed. Now I talk customers out of them and we put in 150 amp service, just the right size. I have a 200 amp in my house, I dont need it.
> 
> VP


When selling your house that 200 amp. service looks better than a 150 amp. to a perspective buyer...

More is always better when selling something.. whether you need it or not.. :thumbsup:


----------



## Victory Pete (Jun 29, 2012)

B4T said:


> When selling your house that 200 amp. service looks better than a 150 amp. to a perspective buyer...
> 
> More is always better when selling something.. whether you need it or not.. :thumbsup:


 
Most people don't need 200 amp panels. People are constantly trying to haggle, it is insulting, I therefore do not install any 200 amp services to people who are cheap hypocrites.


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

99.9% of people would not have the slightest clue about their electrical service size and likely don't care either.


----------



## Victory Pete (Jun 29, 2012)

MTW said:


> 99.9% of people would not have the slightest clue about their electrical service size and likely don't care either.


 
10 years ago, 200 amp was the thing to have, now they don't want to pay for 100.


----------



## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

Victory Pete said:


> 10 years ago, 200 amp was the thing to have, now *they* don't want to pay for 100.


Who are these people and where do they live?


----------



## Victory Pete (Jun 29, 2012)

flyboy said:


> Who are these people and where do they live?


 
Cheap Americans


----------



## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

Victory Pete said:


> Cheap Americans


We are "Thrifty". 
That's why we by 2 ply paper. You get double the mileage from it.


----------



## oliquir (Jan 13, 2011)

Only problem is that some person see a 200 amp panel they think they can draw 200 amp from it even if service has 100-150 amp wiring


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

oliquir said:


> Only problem is that some person see a 200 amp panel they think they can draw 200 amp from it even if service has 100-150 amp wiring


Most people think they can draw 600a from a 200a panel :err:


----------



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

480sparky said:


> Most people think they can draw 600a from a 200a panel :err:


You can, just not very long.


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Victory Pete said:


> 10 years ago, 200 amp was the thing to have, now they don't want to pay for 100.


There are still new homes built in RI with 100 amp services. That is completely sufficient for a smaller all-gas home.


----------



## daveEM (Nov 18, 2012)

Chilly sometimes where I live. But we have Natural Gas.

We pretty much don't care how big the house is... 100 Amp service. Standard pedestal in the subdivision feeds 3 houses on 125 amp fuses.

Here you have to smooch the poco big time to get more than 100 Amp. They are still gonna hook you to that same pedestal. 

40 amp stove, 30 amp dryer, heck my two neighbours have central air. Maybe our 100 amp breakers are stuck?


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MTW said:


> There are still new homes built in RI with 100 amp services. That is completely sufficient for a smaller all-gas home.


Yup. There's a lot of houses running just fine on their original 60a service. 100a is plenty for a smaller gas house.


----------



## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

Victory Pete said:


> Most people don't need 200 amp panels. People are constantly trying to haggle, it is insulting, I therefore do not install any 200 amp services to people who are cheap hypocrites.


it's only insulting if you don't know how to negotiate.


----------



## Victory Pete (Jun 29, 2012)

wildleg said:


> it's only insulting if you don't know how to negotiate.


I know how to negotiate, and it is quite insulting how people try to get something for nothing these days. Too many shows on the idiot box encouraging people to try to "get a deal".


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Victory Pete said:


> I know how to negotiate, and it is quite insulting how people try to get something for nothing these days. Too many shows on the idiot box encouraging people to try to "get a deal".


There is no negotiation. Give your price. If they don't like it, shake their hand and thank them for the opportunity. 

What do you install as a 150a service and how much do you save vs. a 200a service?


----------



## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

Here in WNY I still install 100 amp services all the time.....most 1200 sq ft ranch style "gas on gas" as we call em are fine for them.....I try to up sell to the 150 but if there is push back 100 is a closer....

Gas on gas: dryer,range,hot water and furnace all gas....biggest demand AC...


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

RGH said:


> Here in WNY I still install 100 amp services all the time.....most 1200 sq ft ranch style "gas on gas" as we call em are fine for them.....I try to up sell to the 150 but if there is push back 100 is a closer....
> 
> Gas on gas: dryer,range and furnace all gas....biggest demand AC...


Same here.

But 150A is an odd size. I charge about $300 more to go from 100A to 200A in the same house (same amount of circuits).

Do you get a 200A meter pan with 2" hub and use that for the 150A service?


----------



## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

HackWork said:


> Same here.
> 
> But 150A is an odd size. I charge about $300 more to go from 100A to 200A in the same house (same amount of circuits).
> 
> Do you get a 200A meter pan with 2" hub and use that for the 150A service?


yes...Nat-grid blue book requires it...as well as #4cu grnd from pan.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

RGH said:


> yes...Nat-grid blue book requires it...as well as #4cu grnd from pan.


So the only thing you are saving is a few bucks on smaller SEC's. I use AL either way so the cost difference is small. Finding a 150A panel becomes the problem, you are very limited.


----------

