# Thermal Imaging Cameras for Faultfinding



## Potsy (Mar 16, 2009)

Anyone have any experience in using thermal image cameras for fault finding - recommend any good brands? Looking to rent initially.


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

Potsy said:


> Anyone have any experience in using thermal image cameras for fault finding - recommend any good brands? Looking to rent initially.


What sort of "Faults" do you expect to find with an IR camera.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*Thermal imaging*

We use them almost on a daily basis. They are really great. It takes a while to admit they are rarely wrong. If there is a relatively hotter place than something close to it...something is going on, and needs investigation. WE like the FLIR.


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> We use them almost on a daily basis. They are really great. It takes a while to admit they are rarely wrong. If there is a relatively hotter place than something close to it...something is going on, and needs investigation. WE like the FLIR.


Sure they are good for finding righ resistance connections or overload conditions but those are not faults, just trying to see the logic behind fault finding with IR.


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## Potsy (Mar 16, 2009)

Zog said:


> What sort of "Faults" do you expect to find with an IR camera.


Loose/deteriorated connections – Overloads – Imbalanced Loads – Open Circuits – Inductive Heating – Defective Equipment – Faulty Wiring -Internal cable degredation are a few things I am thinking
It will allow possible evidence to root cause failure.


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

Potsy said:


> Loose/deteriorated connections – Overloads – Imbalanced Loads – Open Circuits – Inductive Heating – Defective Equipment – Faulty Wiring -Internal cable degredation are a few things I am thinking
> It will allow possible evidence to root cause failure.


OK, those are not really faults but I see where you are going. IR cameras these days are not priced like they used to be ($20k-$30k), you can purchase them for very reasonable prices, Flir makes some good ones. 

However, owning a camera is only the 1st step, not sure about the UK but in the states we have different certification levels, there is a lot more to IR scanning than "taking a photo". An IR camera in untrained hands will lead to more wrong conclusions than right ones.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Zog said:


> Sure they are good for finding righ resistance connections or overload conditions but those are not faults, just trying to see the logic behind fault finding with IR.


To me any un-planned for energy loss in a circuit is a fault. I have shot buss plugs from the floor and noticed a slight temperature difference. Upon opening nothing was apparent right off the bat. When I pulled the plug off the buss the buss itself was pitted pretty good. Loose connections on relay terminals, etc. Our cameras have paid for themselves many times over. Our plant was built in 1954.


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## den (Mar 28, 2009)

The REC I worked for had a shared camera and I don't remember the brand but we would get for 2 mo every year and I used it a lot. We checked our sub stations and always found some "hot connections" or a bad ocr that was tripping a lot. We could find cracked insulators going down the road 30mph. It worked great. Our local plastic factory had to have all there electrical panels, swithboards, breakers, controls, raceways, etc. IR tested everyyear and when we started doing that their down time was cut in half from fixing problems before they got serious. We would use the camera to see hot spots and then had a noncontact thermometer to get actual temperatures for verification. They also work good for deer after dark!!


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> To me any un-planned for energy loss in a circuit is a fault. I have shot buss plugs from the floor and noticed a slight temperature difference. Upon opening nothing was apparent right off the bat. When I pulled the plug off the buss the buss itself was pitted pretty good. Loose connections on relay terminals, etc. Our cameras have paid for themselves many times over. Our plant was built in 1954.


A fault is defined as the abnormal flow of current due to a low resistance condition. An IR camera will not detect a real "fault". That said, when used by a properly trained person (ANd I know you are, I have your companies IR training levels and requirements in my desk) it can be a valuable predictive maintenance tool. Used improperly, it can lead to misdiagnosis, I have seen some crazy recommendation on reports from EC's with a camera and no training.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

We have a very large roof area over our plant. If there is a water leak it may be going into the roof 100yards away from where it is actually leaking. After a mild day, maybe 3 in the morning when the air is cooler you can shoot the ceiling from the inside. The latent heat that is in the roof material is enhanced by the moisture. The source can be tracked.


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> We have a very large roof area over our plant. If there is a water leak it may be going into the roof 100yards away from where it is actually leaking. After a mild day, maybe 3 in the morning when the air is cooler you can shoot the ceiling from the inside. The latent heat that is in the roof material is enhanced by the moisture. The source can be tracked.


I thought you just used the contractors that work on the roof to find the holes :jester:, had some close ones myself working up there on rooftop subs.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Zog said:


> A fault is defined as the abnormal flow of current due to a low resistance condition. An IR camera will not detect a real "fault". That said, when used by a properly trained person (ANd I know you are, I have your companies IR training levels and requirements in my desk) it can be a valuable predictive maintenance tool. Used improperly, it can lead to misdiagnosis, I have seen some crazy recommendation on reports from EC's with a camera and no training.


I am not sure of how qualified I am. The very day I completed the course, I dropped the camera to the floor while handing it back to the instructor. I am not the most qualified, anyway, others here, are. But I understand the principles and am usually just on the mitigation side. AND, you are right. Those cameras in the wrong hands can create a lot of unnecessary work for you.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Zog said:


> I thought you just used the contractors that work on the roof to find the holes :jester:, had some close ones myself working up there on rooftop subs.


We generally do. They always say they found the leaks...we must not have had enough money to tell them to fix them.


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

The biggest misconcption is that IR cameras detect heat, they do not. An IR camera captures the radiosity of the target it is viewing. Radiosity is defined as the infrared energy coming from a target modulated by the intervening atmosphere, and consists of emitted, reflected and sometimes transmitted IR energy. An opaque target has a transmittance of zero. The colors on an IR image vary due to variations in radiosity. The radiosity of an opaque target can vary due to the target temperature, target emissivity and reflected radiant energy variations. 

Understanding the properties of radiosity, reflection, and emissivity are critical to proper IR evaluation of electrical systems. You also need to know what the recommended actions should be for different delta T's between the object and ambient and similar objects (Phases). 

The thermographer also needs to be trained in Arc Flash requirements and have the necessary PPE to do the scanning.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Zog said:


> The biggest misconcption is that IR cameras detect heat, they do not. An IR camera captures the radiosity of the target it is viewing. Radiosity is defined as the infrared energy coming from a target modulated by the intervening atmosphere, and consists of emitted, reflected and sometimes transmitted IR energy. An opaque target has a transmittance of zero. The colors on an IR image vary due to variations in radiosity. The radiosity of an opaque target can vary due to the target temperature, target emissivity and reflected radiant energy variations.
> 
> Understanding the properties of radiosity, reflection, and emissivity are critical to proper IR evaluation of electrical systems. You also need to know what the recommended actions should be for different delta T's between the object and ambient and similar objects (Phases).
> 
> The thermographer also needs to be trained in Arc Flash requirements and have the necessary PPE to do the scanning.


I think we all know all of that.:whistling2: That is why I put black electrical tape on the inside and the outside of my new windows in the same spot. I used my laser thermometer to see if I would be saving money. Anybody need a service???:no:


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## decmck (Nov 5, 2008)

I have used Flir and found them to be good can switch between celsius and farenheit and can also take a digital image as well as an IR one


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