# Receptacles in shallow basement walls



## Cardenas Electric (10 mo ago)

I am needing to install receptacles for rooms in a basement, in some areas of the basement the studs were installed flat instead of how they usually are so the walls will be shallow. I have installed some of those new work shallow boxes I found some that are 23.5 cubic in. Wanting to install 12/2 Romex is this still ok to meet code?


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## insaneirish (Nov 20, 2011)

This is a straightforward box fill calculation.


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## Almaden (May 26, 2021)

Faced with the same issue, we used steel boxes with mud rings. They were the perfect depth for us.
Hope that helps!


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## Cardenas Electric (10 mo ago)

Almaden said:


> Faced with the same issue, we used steel boxes with mud rings. They were the perfect depth for us.
> Hope that helps!


 With using steel boxes you mounted them to the concrete? And then did you still run Romex to them?


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## John M. (Oct 29, 2016)

I second the steel boxes. They are a 4x4 box with a side bracket that you screw to the stud. Then put a half inch deep plaster ring on it. Be sure to get the ones for romex, not MC cable


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## Almaden (May 26, 2021)

Cardenas Electric said:


> With using steel boxes you mounted them to the concrete? And then did you still run Romex to them?


As John said next, they make steel 4x4 boxes with ‘dog ears’ on the side to mount them to the stud with.


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## NoBot (Oct 12, 2019)

Instead of a mud/plaster ring, buy a Cut Tile ring. It works much better with drywall


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Customer should screw 2 X 2’s to the existing framing to make the wall the proper depth. In Canada, it would be almost impossible to do this job without a 3 1/2” cavity because building code requires an airtight box.


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## Bluenose for rent (Nov 6, 2020)

99cents said:


> Customer should screw 2 X 2’s to the existing framing to make the wall the proper depth. In Canada, it would be almost impossible to do this job without a 3 1/2” cavity because building code requires an airtight box.


What code is that? Never heard of it.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Bluenose for rent said:


> What code is that? Never heard of it.


Here we are supposed to put in NuTek boxes.


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## Bluenose for rent (Nov 6, 2020)

99cents said:


> Here we are supposed to put in NuTek boxes.
> View attachment 164037


I hate those boxes, I use a 2304 and a vb1, perfectly compliant.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Bluenose for rent said:


> I hate those boxes, I use a 2304 and a vb1, perfectly compliant.


There’s confusion here with building inspectors failing vapour boots. I put in NuTeks now to be on the safe side if it’s NMD.


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## Ty the electric guy (Feb 16, 2014)

I was told a couple years ago that we’re not allowed to use vapour barrier and metal boxes anymore. Need to use gasketed boxes. It might be an Alberta thing though.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

Ty the electric guy said:


> I was told a couple years ago that we’re not allowed to use vapour barrier and metal boxes anymore. Need to use gasketed boxes. It might be an Alberta thing though.


It might very well be. I've never even laid eyes on one.

Do you always let your AHJs pick and choose from the available approved products for you?


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## ohm it hertz (Dec 2, 2020)

I would anchor shallow 4-square boxes directly to the foundation walls with hammer drive anchors and use mud rings. NM could be sleeved in EMT with a bushing up top. Stub the stick above the top plate and secure the NM there. This way you won't be limited to where the framing is to place your receptacles, and no need for nail plates for every drop down a wall.

Double check any vapor barrier requirements. Around here I've never seen it required but there could be local codes.


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## Cardenas Electric (10 mo ago)

Almaden said:


> As John said next, they make steel 4x4 boxes with ‘dog ears’ on the side to mount them to the stud with.


I think I know which ones you’re talking about, the next question I have is what about securing my Romex, going to the side of the stud like usually won’t meet the 1-1/4 clearance. Am I to secure the Romax flat against the concrete walls?


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## Cardenas Electric (10 mo ago)

ohm it hertz said:


> I would anchor shallow 4-square boxes directly to the foundation walls with hammer drive anchors and use mud rings. NM could be sleeved in EMT with a bushing up top. Stub the stick above the top plate and secure the NM there. This way you won't be limited to where the framing is to place your receptacles, and no need for nail plates for every drop down a wall.
> 
> Double check any vapor barrier requirements. Around here I've never seen it required but there could be local codes.


I was thinking I was gonna have to go this route just so that the Romex would be protected all the way up the wall. Thank your for the help


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## Cardenas Electric (10 mo ago)

I currently have these installed but didn’t run the Romex to them because I wanted to double check, and wasn’t sure about how to secure my Romex to still meet code.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

now you have to figure out how to get emt attached to em


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## Cardenas Electric (10 mo ago)

If I can’t make those work I can still just go with the steel box route. That seems to be the best way to go


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

Cardenas Electric said:


> If I can’t make those work I can still just go with the steel box route. That seems to be the best way to go


i have seen shallow metal wall boxes, but i dont remember if they had ko's or looms


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## ohm it hertz (Dec 2, 2020)

Almost Retired said:


> i have seen shallow metal wall boxes, but i dont remember if they had ko's or looms


Yep, they're sold with 1/2" KOs.

Raco 1.5" shallow, gangable metal boxes.


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## Malywr (Jan 23, 2018)

ohm it hertz said:


> Yep, they're sold with 1/2" KOs.
> 
> Raco 1.5" shallow, gangable metal boxes.


How big is it 
Can you run #12 x5 and GFCI device in it ?


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## ohm it hertz (Dec 2, 2020)

They would definitely need to be ganged together.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

ohm it hertz said:


> They would definitely need to be ganged together.


so now we are back to a 4-square and a single gang ring


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

Almost Retired said:


> so now we are back to a 4-square and a single gang ring


or ... if it would be accesible ... a single gang shallow box on bottom of emt and a 4 square on top for a junction point


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## ohm it hertz (Dec 2, 2020)

Almost Retired said:


> or ... if it would be accesible ... a single gang shallow box on bottom of emt and a 4 square on top for a junction point


Good idea for an open framed ceiling, or drop ceiling.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Here's a tip, and it's just a tip, so you are hereby forgiven if you choose otherwise. Use 14 gauge nm cable and put a 15 amp breaker on the circuit. Your whole day will go better, and that clock radio you are going to plug in won't notice the difference one little bit.


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## u2slow (Jan 2, 2014)

NoBot said:


> Instead of a mud/plaster ring, buy a Cut Tile ring. It works much better with drywall


Except they cost double/triple because they're fabricated rather than stamped.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

u2slow said:


> Except they cost double/triple because they're fabricated rather than stamped.


the customer pays not you, its not your fault they built it wrong

i have no mercy for ppl who jake leg things and expect me to deal with the problems when it cant be done right

furthermore i dont like to get involved in those projects because the HO is obviously cheap and it will cost me grief and money down the road


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## u2slow (Jan 2, 2014)

Almost Retired said:


> the customer pays not you, its not your fault they built it wrong


Haha... easy to forget - when it comes to resi, i'm my own/only customer


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

All this goofing around just to gain an extra 2” of floor.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

possibly they were trying to avoid a small off set in the original concrete wall ?
and of course had no idea what that did to the electrician


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Almost Retired said:


> possibly they were trying to avoid a small off set in the original concrete wall ?
> and of course had no idea what that did to the electrician


Here, they install 2 X 4 walls with a slight gap between the wall and the concrete. Pulling wire is easy. You run it behind the wall and through every third stud.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

it occurs to me that if you dont space studs away from the masonry, you could have sweating./moisture issues
unless you use treated of course


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## 12packofcorona (9 mo ago)

Cardenas Electric said:


> I am needing to install receptacles for rooms in a basement, in some areas of the basement the studs were installed flat instead of how they usually are so the walls will be shallow. I have installed some of those new work shallow boxes I found some that are 23.5 cubic in. Wanting to install 12/2 Romex is this still ok to meet code?


Try using the shallower 4" square boxes with plasterings.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

99cents said:


> All this goofing around just to gain an extra 2” of floor.


In commercial settings the landlord thinks like that. 2 inches times 100 feet equals more rentable space.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

I would like to ask a question about the vapor barrier and the gasket boxes. The towns do not look at or take seriously these requirements so I am not sure how to deal with it. If this is a basement where should the barrier go? I would think against the concrete behind the wood studs otherwise if the wood is between the concrete and vapor barrier it would eventually rot. Where would the gasket boxes go? My house I used the foil thermax stuff on the outside of the plywood and taped all seams and nail heads. That is my vapor barrier. But IDK.


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## oldsailordbf (Jul 26, 2018)

drill your holes run mc to your 4x4 boxes put dual rated breaker in the panel and nail plate your holes.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

kb1jb1 said:


> I would like to ask a question about the vapor barrier and the gasket boxes. The towns do not look at or take seriously these requirements so I am not sure how to deal with it. If this is a basement where should the barrier go? I would think against the concrete behind the wood studs otherwise if the wood is between the concrete and vapor barrier it would eventually rot. Where would the gasket boxes go? My house I used the foil thermax stuff on the outside of the plywood and taped all seams and nail heads. That is my vapor barrier. But IDK.


The National Research Council recommends house wrap on the concrete. I have never seen it done but it makes sense. The vapour barrier always goes against the drywall.





__





Keeping The Heat In - Section 6: Basement insulation: floors, walls and crawl spaces







www.nrcan.gc.ca


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

99cents said:


> The National Research Council recommends house wrap on the concrete. I have never seen it done but it makes sense. The vapour barrier always goes against the drywall.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You are forgetting many of our neighbors to the south are not keeping heat in, they are keeping A/C in. I think some locales put the vapor barrier on the other side of the insulation. Or so I've read.....


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

joe-nwt said:


> You are forgetting many of our neighbors to the south are not keeping heat in, they are keeping A/C in. I think some locales put the vapor barrier on the other side of the insulation. Or so I've read.....


True, but we use air conditioning in the summer. The more I think I know, the more I think I don’t know. 😊


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

99cents said:


> The National Research Council recommends house wrap on the concrete. I have never seen it done but it makes sense. The vapour barrier always goes against the drywall.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

So would one use the gasket boxes for a basement? The vapor barrier is behind them.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

kb1jb1 said:


> So would one use the gasket boxes for a basement? The vapor barrier is behind them.


The idea is that you carefully cut around the box and, when the drywall is installed, it presses the VB against the flange gasket.

Yes, we use them for basements.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

99cents said:


> The idea is that you carefully cut around the box and, when the drywall is installed, it presses the VB against the flange gasket.
> 
> Yes, we use them for basements.


I guess what I am asking is why use the gasket box when the vapor barrier is behind the wood and behind the box? There is no vapor barrier directly under the sheetrock instead it is against the concrete walls. 
What is the point of a vapor barrier if you have to use the breath-able house wrap. The science behind all this energy saving stuff seems to change like the Covid mask policy. I have seen many variations of this barrier with some creating mold. Give me a breathable house instead of a hermetically sealed bubble.


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## u2slow (Jan 2, 2014)

The trouble with house wrap and poly vb together is you create a wall that lets warm humid air in, but can't get rid of moisture after it condenses. The same problem with any leaks. The wall never gets warm enough, nor sees enough air exchange to dry out.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

u2slow said:


> The trouble with house wrap and poly vb together is you create a wall that lets warm humid air in, but can't get rid of moisture after it condenses. The same problem with any leaks. The wall never gets warm enough, nor sees enough air exchange to dry out.


That is why I hate these tight sealing methods.


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## Ty the electric guy (Feb 16, 2014)

kb1jb1 said:


> I guess what I am asking is why use the gasket box when the vapor barrier is behind the wood and behind the box? There is no vapor barrier directly under the sheetrock instead it is against the concrete walls.
> What is the point of a vapor barrier if you have to use the breath-able house wrap. The science behind all this energy saving stuff seems to change like the Covid mask policy. I have seen many variations of this barrier with some creating mold. Give me a breathable house instead of a hermetically sealed bubble.


The poly goes between the drywall and studs. It seals against the gasket on the box. There isn’t any poly directly against the concrete. At least that’s how they do it around here.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Ty the electric guy said:


> The poly goes between the drywall and studs. It seals against the gasket on the box. There isn’t any poly directly against the concrete. At least that’s how they do it around here.


But according to the link 99cents posted it shows the vapor barrier against the concrete behind the studs and insulation. Nothing against the sheetrock. This is what gets frustrating at times. The experts tell us what to do but they either change things up or have different opinions from other experts. Just like the mask mandates.


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## Ty the electric guy (Feb 16, 2014)

If you scroll down further it says vapour barrier can be installed on top if the studs in dryer areas. Maybe that’s why they do it like that. Alberta isn’t super humid


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Ty the electric guy said:


> If you scroll down further it says vapour barrier can be installed on top if the studs in dryer areas. Maybe that’s why they do it like that. Alberta isn’t super humid


That makes sense. Here it is very damp at times and I have seen many moldy, musty basements because the vapor barrier was between the studs and sheetrock. The insulation was up against the cement.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

kb1jb1 said:


> But according to the link 99cents posted it shows the vapor barrier against the concrete behind the studs and insulation. Nothing against the sheetrock. This is what gets frustrating at times. The experts tell us what to do but they either change things up or have different opinions from other experts. Just like the mask mandates.


I see where the confusion is. The house wrap on the concrete is referred to as a moisture barrier and the plastic against the drywall a vapour barrier.

Seriously, I have never seen house wrap on the concrete; there is always a gap between the wall and the concrete. Aside from blocking infiltration of outside air, the vapour barrier prevents the insulation from getting wet. In cold weather, the warm inside air contains vapour that condenses in the insulation without the vapour barrier.

In older houses, they sometimes used a black coating, probably tar based, on the concrete walls. It was determined through studies that it gave people with big noses headaches five times out of a million on Wednesdays during a full moon.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

I’ll defend the National Research Council. They started researching cold weather housing decades ago and things have changed in terms of research and products since then. As a minor example, I have worked on older homes with a vapour barrier as thin as the plastic you wrap your sandwich in. Now it’s much thicker. Regardless, their research from the 70’s is still valid today.

As Joe said, we build for cold weather. We do have hot summers, though, and I assume the principles work in reverse. Somebody could prove me wrong.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Where I am we have warm humid summers and semi cold wet winters. I do not think there is a correct way to install the vapor barrier. Every house and building is different. I see 100 year old houses dry and no signs of any mold. Then I see 10 year old houses with all the barriers and seal tight building techniques with mold and rot. I highly doubt people are going to maintain the mechanical ventilation systems that are now required.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

kb1jb1 said:


> Where I am we have warm humid summers and semi cold wet winters. I do not think there is a correct way to install the vapor barrier. Every house and building is different. I see 100 year old houses dry and no signs of any mold. Then I see 10 year old houses with all the barriers and seal tight building techniques with mold and rot. I highly doubt people are going to maintain the mechanical ventilation systems that are now required.


here in the south, a house needs ventilation during favorable times of the year
not winter, not summer, not pollen season
moderate dry weather
which i admit is hard to find

i dont believe in tight enough to pop your ears every time the door shuts
much less than that actually


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## kbatku (Oct 18, 2011)

With romex we usewd "pocket boxes" - I think that's what you have pictured. We replaced the nails with screws


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## Brianrayl (Oct 4, 2013)

Cardenas Electric said:


> I am needing to install receptacles for rooms in a basement, in some areas of the basement the studs were installed flat instead of how they usually are so the walls will be shallow. I have installed some of those new work shallow boxes I found some that are 23.5 cubic in. Wanting to install 12/2 Romex is this still ok to meet code?


In the 70's we busted out the cinderblock and nailed a bracket box it the firring strip. The laborers filled the voids with mortor.


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## Norcal (Mar 22, 2007)

John M. said:


> I second the steel boxes. They are a 4x4 box with a side bracket that you screw to the stud. Then put a half inch deep plaster ring on it. Be sure to get the ones for romex, not MC cable


Always use a ring 1/8" deeper then the wall finish material, 5/8" for 1/2" drywall, 3/4" for 5/8" drywall, instead of the face of the ring being setback 1/8" it will be flush with the finished surface, makes for a better & nicer device trim out.


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