# Bx and arc faults



## Clarky (Sep 25, 2011)

Called to house after a fire an another electrician was there, started the job but baled on the HO before finishing the job. The house had been emptied of all belongings because of smoke damage. The house has a little of everything except knob and tube. What I think is, a bare mininum was done, a lot of the old BX was left in place and put on arc fault breakers [ which I think is a mistake], no hard wired smokes were done, GFI outlets used where 2 wire romex was left. I told the HO if the BX caused the fire the house should have been rewired. [ there were candles burning when no one was home, some jewish thing] so the cause is either electrical or the candles. What are your thoughts?


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Clarky said:


> Called to house after a fire an another electrician was there, started the job but baled on the HO before finishing the job. The house had been emptied of all belongings because of smoke damage. The house has a little of everything except knob and tube. What I think is, a bare mininum was done, a lot of the old BX was left in place and put on arc fault breakers [ which I think is a mistake], no hard wired smokes were done, GFI outlets used where 2 wire romex was left. I told the HO if the BX caused the fire the house should have been rewired. [ there were candles burning when no one was home, some jewish thing] so the cause is either electrical or the candles. What are your thoughts?


Can you tell us how the BX started the fire? or are you just speculating?

Is that in the fire marshal's report.?



> [ there were candles burning when no one was home, some jewish thing]


By the way "Adolph". We do not care if people are Jewish that is their choice ,If you don't believe that then read this until you understand it.
\


> *First Amendment to The United States Constitution
> *
> 
> *Amendment I*
> ...


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## Clarky (Sep 25, 2011)

It's a single family house so I'm sure a fire marshal came to the house . The fire department called is electrical. This happened 6 months ago, now there back in the house, finish paint is done etc. Wish I was called 6 months ago!!!


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

The malable term that may apply is _'Existing'_ , where this may be a single family without any rental history Clarky

Even in the event of fire, the fire marshall findings may not necessarily mean the insurance payoff is _required_ to address the source problem

~CS~


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## Clarky (Sep 25, 2011)

I'll have to check with HO to see if the requirements of the insurance have been met. I think they wish more had been done to upgrade the wiring, lack of communication


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

might be why your predecessor bailed Clarky.....~CS~


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Clarky said:


> It's a single family house so I'm sure a fire marshal came to the house . The fire department called is electrical. This happened 6 months ago, now there back in the house, finish paint is done etc. Wish I was called 6 months ago!!!


Did the fire marshal pin point it to a BX connection ? or is he just generalizing ?


The fact that the former Electrician used AFCI Breakers would not increase the chances of an Electrical fire if they were sized properly and wired correctly .


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## Clarky (Sep 25, 2011)

I think it's a generalized statement because there were candles burning at the time also. I would have tried to rewire the old bx, the ho doesn't have that real feeling of safety even with the arc faults.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

nor would i Clarky

that said, i have been involved with insurance companies signing off on old wiring with the inclusion of them

~CS~


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Clarky said:


> I think it's a generalized statement because there were candles burning at the time also. I would have tried to rewire the old bx, the ho doesn't have that real feeling of safety even with the arc faults.


You mean remove the old BX right?


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## Clarky (Sep 25, 2011)

Yes and or make it dead


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## noarcflash (Sep 14, 2011)

we just did a house in BX, because the old romex started a fire, and the HO wanted BX. The fire burnt along the romex, where as that wouldn't have happened with BX, or MC.


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## electrictim510 (Sep 9, 2008)

I think I might be overlooking something here. What is wrong with a circuit ran in bx on an arc fault breaker? :icon_confused:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

electrictim510 said:


> I think I might be overlooking something here. What is wrong with a circuit ran in bx on an arc fault breaker? :icon_confused:


There is really nothing wrong with that at all IMO.


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## Clarky (Sep 25, 2011)

" MC" has a ground "BX' no ground from what I've removed the insulation is very brittle and falls off. House built in 1920


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## electrictim510 (Sep 9, 2008)

Why would it be bad to have an arc fault on it? I never really looked into it real deep but I thought that arc faults are suppose to prevent fires by sensing arcs and tripping the breaker and to my knowledge didnt require a ground to function properly.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

The actual problem of the fire started because the lady of the house did not run her vacuum cleaner, which of course will instantly trip the afci breaker needlessly, which of course would have interrupted the power to the faulty circuit wiring, and therefore alleviated the chance of a fire starting....


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## jontar (Oct 11, 2009)

Hi

I don't want to hi-jack this tread, but here is one for, When I was a 1st apprentice, the company I worked for did overhead, secondary and primary, distrubution, there was a barn fire out in the county, the fire dept wouldn't go into the building until we came and removed the power.

By the time we got there, ( this was a call out at 2 or 3 in the morning) the barn had burnt to the ground, we asked the fire marshall he said that there was an electrical fire case closed, the jman I was with said, no it wasn't and the fire marshall said how do you know I have 20+ yrs being a fire fighter etc. the jman said I came out and removed the overhead feed going to this barn 3yrs ago, you see that pole over there with the coiled up triplex tapped up high thats the service drop, several poles back the pole mounted can (xfmr) had the cutout pulled hanging down and the hot line clamp removed from the main single phase line and dropped to the primary neutral.

I think it still went down as an electrical fire.


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## k_buz (Mar 12, 2012)

If you are to replace an outlet fed by ungrounded romex, the only legal way to do it either replace the wire feeding the outlet with one with a ground, or leave the ungrounded romex and install a GFI.

Unless the house was gutted, I see no reason that interconnected smokes would be required to be hardwired in.

I have heard nothing in the way of not being able to put BX on AFCI breakers. 
To me, there is way too much of the story we do not know to make a decision on if the prior contractor was acting in an unprofessional manner.


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

Fire marshals here are basically firefighters with rank. They don't know much of anything.

One fire marshal put the cause of a housefire as bad electrical. Electrician shows up, shows the fire marshal that the lights weren't even wired into the panel yet (so how would it have been an electrical fire?) and then the fire marshal said the attic blowers threw their lit cigarette on top of the poly and blew over it. Heat built up over time and started the fire.

Meanwhile the hero homeowner who saved the day by coming in just after all the trades working on his house left, and sees a falling ember come out of a 2nd floor recessed fixture JUST AS HE LOOKED UP, is a hero according to the fire marshal.

I don't give firefighters much credit.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

jontar said:


> Hi
> 
> I don't want to hi-jack this tread, but here is one for, When I was a 1st apprentice, the company I worked for did overhead, secondary and primary, distrubution, there was a barn fire out in the county, the fire dept wouldn't go into the building until we came and removed the power.
> 
> .


 
Oh how the mighty have fallen.........


~CS~


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Clarky said:


> Called to house after a fire an another electrician was there, started the job but baled on the HO before finishing the job. The house had been emptied of all belongings because of smoke damage. The house has a little of everything except knob and tube. What I think is, a bare mininum was done, a lot of the old BX was left in place and put on arc fault breakers [ which I think is a mistake], no hard wired smokes were done, GFI outlets used where 2 wire romex was left. I told the HO if the BX caused the fire the house should have been rewired. [ there were candles burning when no one was home, some jewish thing] so the cause is either electrical or the candles. What are your thoughts?


Time to make money AND do the right thing. A job like this requires you to give no deals. Safety is the concern and you will be paid to do it correctly.


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## kbatku (Oct 18, 2011)

_"If you are to replace an outlet fed by ungrounded romex, the only legal way to do it either replace the wire feeding the outlet with one with a ground, or leave the ungrounded romex and install a GFI."_

It's legal if you make sure the recep don't have a ground hole. They make them & we install them all the time in that situation - just to make it legal. Homeowners hate it, because they paid good money to have some other hack electrician put "grounded receps" in to make the place look modern/accept grounded plugs.


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## jefft110 (Jul 7, 2010)

kbatku said:


> _"If you are to replace an outlet fed by ungrounded romex, the only legal way to do it either replace the wire feeding the outlet with one with a ground, or leave the ungrounded romex and install a GFI."_
> 
> It's legal if you make sure the recep don't have a ground hole. They make them & we install them all the time in that situation - just to make it legal. Homeowners hate it, because they paid good money to have some other hack electrician put "grounded receps" in to make the place look modern/accept grounded plugs.


You can install grounded recept's on an ungrounded circuit as long as it's GFCI protected and you mark the receptacles "no equipment ground".


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## k_buz (Mar 12, 2012)

kbatku said:


> _"If you are to replace an outlet fed by ungrounded romex, the only legal way to do it either replace the wire feeding the outlet with one with a ground, or leave the ungrounded romex and install a GFI."_
> 
> It's legal if you make sure the recep don't have a ground hole. They make them & we install them all the time in that situation - just to make it legal. Homeowners hate it, because they paid good money to have some other hack electrician put "grounded receps" in to make the place look modern/accept grounded plugs.


Thank you for that response. I had to look that one up and found out my first thought was wrong.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

RIVETER said:


> Time to make money AND do the right thing. A job like this requires you to give no deals. Safety is the concern and you will be paid to do it correctly.


I'd like to live in that perfect universe too Riv......~CS~


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## Clarky (Sep 25, 2011)

True arc faults are suppose to cut power when sensing an arc , I guess I'm just a little skeptical about old BX, I find this to be some of the most unsafe wiring I'm a real stickler for properly grounded circuits. I"ve been to a house where old BX was left after a partial renovation was done , the BX was put on an arc Fault and wouldn't hold. Now these homeowners don't have an over head light in there bed room.


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## k_buz (Mar 12, 2012)

Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I see nothing wrong with BX wring if it is installed correctly.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

If the BX did not have the metal strip of wire in the casing and the bx was used as a grounding means then a fault could cause the BX to glow red and not trip the breaker. The impedance of all those turns of cable of the jacket would be too much for the breaker to trip in some cases. This could easily start a fire.


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## Clarky (Sep 25, 2011)

Yes an inspector told me once that was indeed discovered in a house where the floor boards were torn up and the joist had been chard by a glowing BX


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

ok, so is the call to simply address the point of incidence Clarky?

~CS~


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## Ontariojer (May 19, 2011)

I know this sounds crazy, but I was told this by the senior electrical inspector for ontario.

The reason why so many fires are 'electrical' fires is, if the source of heat that led to the fire is electrical-it is classified as an electrical fire. So, leave a pot of boiling oil on the ELECTRIC range and it starts a fire: electrical fire. If it was a gas range it would be a gas fire. Leave a curling iron plugged in, electrical fire. I always thought this was the craziest thing.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Ontariojer said:


> I know this sounds crazy, but I was told this by the senior electrical inspector for ontario.
> 
> The reason why so many fires are 'electrical' fires is, if the source of heat that led to the fire is electrical-it is classified as an electrical fire. So, leave a pot of boiling oil on the ELECTRIC range and it starts a fire: electrical fire. If it was a gas range it would be a gas fire. Leave a curling iron plugged in, electrical fire. I always thought this was the craziest thing.


I totally agree with the inspector. Most fires are not caused by the wiring in the walls but rather the cords and appliances that are plugged into it. If someone puts a paper bag in front of an electric heater then they will call it an electrical fire. IMO, there are few fires started by the wiring we install as contractors.


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## Ontariojer (May 19, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I totally agree with the inspector. Most fires are not caused by the wiring in the walls but rather the cords and appliances that are plugged into it. If someone puts a paper bag in front of an electric heater then they will call it an electrical fire. IMO, there are few fires started by the wiring we install as contractors.


Oh. I believe it, I just think it's crazy to classify human error as an electrical fire. 

Although I guess it can only help us by making people more afraid of 'faulty wiring' causing fires. Maybe they will avoid the trunkslammers more often this way.


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

I would have to concur with the last two statement. We recently rewired an apt that the Bronx FDNY could find where the fire was. But, they declared it an electrical fire. After rewiring and removing all the wiring we found abousallty nothing. 
Although we did find the remance of a clothing iron with cord all burnt up and shoved in a closet, that the previous tennent forgot to take with them. LMAO.


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> If the BX did not have the metal strip of wire in the casing and the bx was used as a grounding means then a fault could cause the BX to glow red and not trip the breaker. The impedance of all those turns of cable of the jacket would be too much for the breaker to trip in some cases. This could easily start a fire.


Is this true? I think if it faults most of the current would go through the neutral. I think perhaps that if the neutral was lost, and the BX was being used as the identified conductor, then I could see that. Definately.


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

kaboler said:


> Is this true? I think if it faults most of the current would go through the neutral. I think perhaps that if the neutral was lost, and the BX was being used as the identified conductor, then I could see that. Definately.


:no::whistling2::hammer:

Where is the dunce smilie when I need it? 

Are your seriously this dumb or is it an act? 

A fault would be hot to BX sheath, because a neutral to sheath fault would simply be a parallel path to ground since the neutral and ground are bonded at the panel. That parallel path is unlikely to flow enough current to result in a glowing sheath.

Dude you either need to lay off the drugs or you've been forgetting to take your meds. :jester:


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

mxslick said:


> :no::whistling2::hammer:
> 
> Where is the dunce smilie when I need it?
> 
> ...


I didn't say a neutral-to sheath fault lol. Dude, you've been drinking. I was saying that the only way I see the bx sheath heating up like that is if equipment was running without a neutral and using the sheath as the identified conductor (neutral). Happens you know.

Read it again man.


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## electrictim510 (Sep 9, 2008)

:whistling2:.... wait for it.... wait for it....


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

kaboler said:


> I didn't say a neutral-to sheath fault lol. Dude, you've been drinking. I was saying that the only way I see the bx sheath heating up like that is _*if equipment was running without a neutral and using the sheath as the identified conductor (neutral). Happens you know.
> *_
> Read it again man.


Oh really? And how often does it happen? You've seen this personally how many times?  Show us pictures of your scenario and the damaged BX that resulted or it didn't happen.

Dude I've been doing electrical work since before you even thought of trying to be an electrician, have worked on literally hundreds of jobs with BX/AC cable and have never seen such a fault. It would have to be a deliberate connection to even remotely be possible. 

And that is very difficult to achieve even on purpose. 

The simple fact is that 99.9998% of BX faults that result in a glowing sheath are hot-to (grounded) sheath failures, whether in the BX itself or from a fault in a device or equipment connected to the cable. Now those kinds of faults I have seen..in fact there is even a video on Youtube showing just such a fault: (Disregard the stupid commentary those guys make, just watch the video.)


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## electrictim510 (Sep 9, 2008)

Those guys are derps. :no:


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

Doesn't the video show a loose neutral exactly like I said?


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

mxslick said:


> Oh really? And how often does it happen? You've seen this personally how many times?  Show us pictures of your scenario and the damaged BX that resulted or it didn't happen.
> 
> Dude I've been doing electrical work since before you even thought of trying to be an electrician, have worked on literally hundreds of jobs with BX/AC cable and have never seen such a fault. It would have to be a deliberate connection to even remotely be possible.
> 
> ...


Let me pose this question to you, would the armored cable after watching this video be damaged, like a noticeable hole of some sort. Or would it display black soot on top?
The reason I asked this is, the apt I rewired the present BX had black markings which was assumed to be from the cable laying on top of the flat black iron used to support the dropped ceiling. 
Now, I'm 88% sure all the neutrals in the panel were terminated properly. As for the devices I really don't recall any loose or disconnected neutral.


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> Let me pose this question to you, would the armored cable after watching this video be damaged, like a noticeable hole of some sort. Or would it display black soot on top?
> The reason I asked this is, the apt I rewired the present BX had black markings which was assumed to be from the cable laying on top of the flat black iron used to support the dropped ceiling.
> Now, I'm 88% sure all the neutrals in the panel were terminated properly. As for the devices I really don't recall any loose or disconnected neutral.


The damage I have seen has ranged from black marks to discoloration (grading from sliver color to black to blue) and holes burned/blown completely through. It really depends on the magnitude of the fault current. 

Get the neutral thing out of your head and ignore Kablower he is trolling again.


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

So why does the guy highlight the undone neutral?


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