# arc fault required for panel change out?



## energize (Nov 18, 2007)

Changing out a 42 circuit, 200 amp panel from a home built in the late 90's. It had a 200 amp panel, the busbar went south under a loose A/C double pole breaker so I am replacing the panel with a new 42 circuit panel. Inspector says I must install arc faults now for any circuits involving the receptacles, lights, or smoke alarms in all the bedrooms. 

I ask for a code section and he provided 210.12(B). 

My position is I am replacing the panel, not doing any work in the bedrooms. I have no idea what receptacles/lights/smoke alarms is on what circuit, other than the panel schedule. 

His position is he is the inspector and if I want a meter, he better see arc faults in the new panel. 

I do not have a problem going to his supervisor - I have done it several times and have been successful each and every time, but I am always sure of my stance before involving the supervisor. Unchartered territory this time here for me, so I am looking for guidance.

What say you?


Thanks -


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## frmRUwLV (Nov 3, 2007)

I don't have the code section, but from my personal experience bedroom smoke detector does not have to be on arc fault breaker. As you know all smokies have to be interconnected with a signal wire, so bedroom smoke detectors more likely are on the same circut with the other ones. As far as the rest, you will probably have to install AFCI breaker for bedroom lighting and receptacles. Once we did a big complex of condo remodels. We had to tap a few outlets from the exsisting ones in every unit. The whole complex originally was wired in alluminum wire. So at every outlet where we had to tap from we were required to pigtail copper coductors using CU to AL wirenuts(that cost at least $1 each one). The thing was is that receptacles were not listed with use of AL wire so we had to do it. Since you changing the panel you have to bring it up to code, in my opinion. But let's see what the code says. Anybody?


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## energize (Nov 18, 2007)

frmRUwLV said:


> I don't have the code section, but from my personal experience bedroom smoke detector does not have to be on arc fault breaker. As you know all smokies have to be interconnected with a signal wire, so bedroom smoke detectors more likely are on the same circut with the other ones. As far as the rest, you will probably have to install AFCI breaker for bedroom lighting and receptacles. Once we did a big complex of condo remodels. We had to tap a few outlets from the exsisting ones in every unit. The whole complex originally was wired in alluminum wire. So at every outlet where we had to tap from we were required to pigtail copper coductors using CU to AL wirenuts(that cost at least $1 each one). The thing was is that receptacles were not listed with use of AL wire so we had to do it. Since you changing the panel you have to bring it up to code, in my opinion. But let's see what the code says. Anybody?


Thanks for the response. I am basing my position on exactly what I have highlighted in red. I am changing the panel, and I am bringing the panel up to code. I have done nothing in the bedrooms, or any other room for that matter, so why would I be held accountable for requirements for other rooms when I have not touched them?

Why stop at arc faults? If you follow his reasoning, I should have to update the GFCI requirements and the individual bathroom receptacle circuit, along with every other code update since the house was constructed.

In other words, my position is why should I be responsible for the entire electrical system when I am only touching the panel?


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## frmRUwLV (Nov 3, 2007)

You have a good point. But how about if say you had to change a panel that had a 30A breaker on a #14 wire,that homeowner not knowing any better installed himself. Would you just install it back after you have done your service change? I would not think so. Why? Because in case if anything happens you may be held responsible as a compitent professional who knew better and still have done it wrong. And in case of inspection you would never pass it either, you can't tell an inspector that it was not your idea to put this breaker in there. Same for the AFCI breaker. You are performing a major work on a panel,and the breakers are in the panel, not somewhere where you can't see them. If you did not have to uninstall/install breakers you would not have to replace them. But it's not the case, in the end YOU will be the person who knowligly installed a non AFCI breaker on the bedroom circuits and YOU who violated the code. You need to bring it up to a minimum safety standart. It's not an inspector's problem, it's a homeowner's problem. He has to come up with $$ to replace the breaker.
PS. Can GFCI breaker be substituted with a GFCI receptacle? Sure it can and in 99% cases it's done this way. Can AFCI breaker be substituted with some kind of a listed device? Not to my knowlege. So you may assume there is a GFCI protection within inside the house, even if it is not at the panel. But you can't be assuming the same about AFCI.


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

Energize, I agree with you, BUT have you checked your local amendments? Usually we aren't required to add AFCIs unless work is done in that particular area, but the building code was amended to require interconnected smokes after a certain amount of work.

I have wired additions with bedrooms, which needed AFCI, but was not required to AFCI the existing BRs, and an addition is a much larger job than a panel swap.

Again, local amendments may require this.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

I agree with John. Unless a local amendment specifically demands this I would go over his head. That is an EXPENSIVE upgrade, especially if you priced the job already. 

This has been a code issue since 2005 (depending on when you adopted the 2005 NEC). Have you not run across this before? Was this request completely out of the blue? 
Maybe ask the inspector if he'll help pay for them. :whistling2:

And YES, if you follow the 2005 NEC smokes DO have to be on an AFCI circuit. The box a smoke is mounted to IS an "outlet".


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## DBack Elec (Nov 14, 2007)

Alot of very good infomation about ACFI's here. But I have to agree with update the service you update the ACFI. ACFI's are the hot item with inspectors these days. I can remember when it was GFI's. So you have to go with the flow.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

DBack Elec said:


> Alot of very good infomation about ACFI's here. But I have to agree with update the service you update the ACFI. ACFI's are the hot item with inspectors these days. I can remember when it was GFI's. So you have to go with the flow.


I disagree, based on the NEC. If you read the requirements for afci protection, it is for 120 volt 15 and 20 amp bedroom"outlets installed". Changing a service panel is not installing outlets, and therefore afci's are not required. Any inspector who demands afci's for panel changes where no new bedroom outlets are installed is ignorant of the code.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

DBack Elec said:


> So you have to go with the flow.


I always go with the flow. As long as the flow has it in writing.


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## DBack Elec (Nov 14, 2007)

We are talking about the inspector here (AHJ). And going over his head to his supervisor is not always a good idea. Maybe not on this job, but some job he will remember it.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

DBack Elec said:


> We are talking about the inspector here (AHJ).


SO!
Answer me ONE question: Does an AHJ make up the rules, or does he enforce them?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Speedy Petey said:


> SO!
> Answer me ONE question: Does an AHJ make up the rules, or does he enforce them?


Legally, an inspector cannot make rules up. They can only enforce the rules that are in place. It's the same for a police officer. Cops can't just make up rules on their own to suit themselves. If the speed limit is posted as 45MPH, they can't just say, "Well, today it's going to be 35 because I want to make my quota for the week".

Many do, however, and 'get away with it' because no one questions or challenges them.


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## Pierre Belarge (Feb 3, 2007)

macmikeman said:


> I disagree, based on the NEC. If you read the requirements for afci protection, it is for 120 volt 15 and 20 amp bedroom"outlets installed". Changing a service panel is not installing outlets, and therefore afci's are not required. Any inspector who demands afci's for panel changes where no new bedroom outlets are installed is ignorant of the code.


 
Actually it is to protect the branch circuit supplying those "outlets".

The most important issue in regards to the OPs post is most likely going to be local law.
I would think that in most instances the panel change out is not going to require the addition of AFCI CBers. 

Let us know what his supervisor says.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

480sparky said:


> Legally, an inspector cannot make rules up. They can only enforce the rules that are in place. It's the same for a police officer. Cops can't just make up rules on their own to suit themselves. If the speed limit is posted as 45MPH, they can't just say, "Well, today it's going to be 35 because I want to make my quota for the week".
> 
> Many do, however, and 'get away with it' because no one questions or challenges them.


Actually, people challenging a ticket to the extreme has resulted in what is known as "case law," wherein different interpretations and final decisions from judges and/or juries result in laws which are not written in codeified books, or sometimes nullify laws which are codified in books.

For the example of police issuing speeding tickets, you CAN get a ticket for doing 30 in a 40 MPH zone, but if the code cited was "speeding" it would be dismissed. A ticket written for "unreasonable and imprudent speed" would stand up in court if you were driving 30 MPH during a blizzard, at night, in the fog, in a 40 MPH zone...


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## GREGNC (Nov 13, 2007)

in NC they generally grandfather this situation no ARC faults.What state are you working in? As for new cons. Arc fault for anything in a bedroom including smoke alarms.(only exeption I have ran across is a switch for flood lights) I generally put the alarms on a deignated circuit and put em on an arc fault breaker.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Pierre Belarge said:


> Actually it is to protect the branch circuit supplying those "outlets".


Yes, Pierre, I know but it was as close as I could quote that code without actually having to get up and go fetch a code book to do a perfect quote.
Anyway I stand on what I said, no new outlets, no afci required unless there are some local ammendments to whatever current code is for the area in question. Too often whole departments push for this when it is not even required. Just for the record, I like AfCI's. Love it when customers request more than just the code required ones. $$$$ and peace of mind.


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

DBack Elec said:


> We are talking about the inspector here (AHJ). And going over his head to his supervisor is not always a good idea. Maybe not on this job, but some job he will remember it.


In many cases, the inspector is NOT the AHJ. That is a legally defined position here, and is most emphatically not ANY member of the electrical inspection dept.


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

macmikeman said:


> Just for the record, I like AfCI's. Love it when customers request more than just the code required ones. $$$$ and peace of mind.


As long as the price is included, sure! :thumbsup:
Make sure you include for possible troubleshooting.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

JohnJ0906 said:


> As long as the price is included, sure! :thumbsup:
> Make sure you include for possible troubleshooting.


I buy my afci's for about $35 each. I sell them for $95. Labor to install is extra. I carefully explain to each of my customers that these are fairly new devices that they are requesting, and as such they cost quite a bit of money to purchase wholesale. The customer's do not actually know how much they are paying me for each device, I just price it all upfront. If you tell them that the price will probably drop after about 10 years they always seem to bite at that point.


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## DBack Elec (Nov 14, 2007)

I sometimes forget that some of the electrician in this forum maybe working on older homes where is more difficult to install AFCI's. Here in AZ more of our work is in new houses. It wouldn't be as much of an issue to install. Now if an inspector asked me to change an equipment room service I might question that. It's a matter of picking your battles here.


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## energize (Nov 18, 2007)

Update - 

The AHJ ruled that I must install the arc faults. Cost the homeowner another $400. What the heck, it's only money.....long as it's not mine.:thumbsup:


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## leaton62000 (Jan 3, 2021)

energize said:


> Changing out a 42 circuit, 200 amp panel from a home built in the late 90's. It had a 200 amp panel, the busbar went south under a loose A/C double pole breaker so I am replacing the panel with a new 42 circuit panel. Inspector says I must install arc faults now for any circuits involving the receptacles, lights, or smoke alarms in all the bedrooms.
> 
> I ask for a code section and he provided 210.12(B).
> 
> ...


It has been my experience (18yr Journeyman; Baltimore, MD & Surrounding) that whatever these inspectors say, whatever horse they are sitting high upon that day, take notes, fix whatever he says and cover YOUR ass by taking GOOD notes (dates, times, stuff said/done). DO whatever the inspector tells you to AND be sure to checkover their paperwork (make sure they didn't slip in something they didn't "say"). Fix it! Call them back and You take Them and show them everything YOU fixed. Done!


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## leaton62000 (Jan 3, 2021)

leaton62000 said:


> It has been my experience (18yr Journeyman; Baltimore, MD & Surrounding) that whatever these inspectors say, whatever horse they are sitting high upon that day, take notes, fix whatever he says and cover YOUR ass by taking GOOD notes (dates, times, stuff said/done). DO whatever the inspector tells you to AND be sure to checkover their paperwork (make sure they didn't slip in something they didn't "say"). Fix it! Call them back and You take Them and show them everything YOU fixed. Done!


These Inspectors have a tendency (at least ONE of em in YOUR "area") has just got to be a Jackwad. He's the guy who is bigger around than he is tall; USUALLY white, bald and well, just an asshole ya know? He's like a bad cop. Has a little authority and likes to use it. Well, best to just "go with the flow" as I think someone mentioned above. Do what the blob wants ya to do. Then show it to him when the time comes showing him you paid close attention but fixed what "he" wanted you to. Yeah, he's a Jackwad. But WE WIN in the end!


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

As I read the post here, I am saying to myself that there are a lot of un-informed electricians commenting here. AFCI requirements are pretty well established. Then I realized this thread was resurrected from 2007. Why are these old threads still accessible? Codes have changed drastically in 10 /15 years.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

leaton62000 said:


> It has been my experience (18yr Journeyman; Baltimore, MD & Surrounding) that whatever these inspectors say, whatever horse they are sitting high upon that day, take notes, fix whatever he says and cover YOUR ass by taking GOOD notes (dates, times, stuff said/done). DO whatever the inspector tells you to AND be sure to checkover their paperwork (make sure they didn't slip in something they didn't "say"). Fix it! Call them back and You take Them and show them everything YOU fixed. Done!


Riddle me this...
Suppose you're installing a Tesla charging station in a residence built circa 1990. Calculations indicate this requires service upgrade. Out with the 100, in with the 200. Inspector not only wants arc-fault protection on all existing circuits but also: wants 20 amp bathroom receptacle circuit in 2 existing baths and a powder room. Wants the exterior receptacles taken off the bathroom GFCI circuit. Wants the garage receptacle taken off the bathroom GFCI circuit and on it's own 20 amp circuit. The 3 hardwired smokes also lack interconnection so they want this done too.

At what point does the realization that "pre-existing non-conforming" work is not a code violation?

Let's further this supposition that you know the inspector(s) in this area are known to be hard asses about this so, being proactive to go a different route and upgrade the 100a meter to a 200a meter main with a 100a main for the existing panel and separate the neutrals and grounds and add a grounding bar only. And then pull the new Tesla circuit from the meter main. Or let's say the main panel was already a sub-panel and the existing service was already a meter and a main 100a disconnect. You didn't even touch the main panel. Are you going to arc-fault the entire residence just for installing a new circuit and increasing the service?


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

Up here when doing a panel changeout we replace like with like. The only additional caveats are to ensure the service supply meets current code and that grounding must be inspected and brought up to code as well. The individual breakers are considered existing even if we put new breakers in.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

The nec is clear on this. This was written specifically with panel change out in mind 



> (D) Branch Circuit Extensions or Modifications — Dwelling
> Units and Dormitory Units. In any of the areas specified in
> 210.12(A) or (B), where branch-circuit wiring is modified,
> replaced, or extended, the branch circuit shall be protected by
> ...


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

joe-nwt said:


> Up here when doing a panel changeout we replace like with like. The only additional caveats are to ensure the service supply meets current code and that grounding must be inspected and brought up to code as well. The individual breakers are considered existing even if we put new breakers in.


This is as it should be, but if it was, than the manufacturers wouldn't get as much of a return-of-investment on the code section that they purchased.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

energize said:


> What say you?


I say it's a local thing. In my area, the only thing that we were required to update were the things directly associated with the service like bonding/grounding.


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