# Loose neutrals........



## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

Smoke coming out of 120V rated appliances is a good indicator.


If it's a split single phase 120/240 system you'll measure 240V leg to leg but other than 120 from either leg to neutral while those non-120V numbers both add up to 240, or thereabouts.


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

A loose neuch can manifest anywhere. Most likely locations are j-boxes, light fixture boxes, and neutral buses. You can use the "divide and conquer" method, or the "open everything" method, but I would start at the panel. The only thing more problematic to T/S is swapped neutrals. Patients is key.


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## deisele86 (Oct 19, 2018)

joebanana said:


> A loose neuch can manifest anywhere. Most likely locations are j-boxes, light fixture boxes, and neutral buses. You can use the "divide and conquer" method, or the "open everything" method, but I would start at the panel. The only thing more problematic to T/S is swapped neutrals. Patients is key.


What do you mean swapped? Like reverse polarity?

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

joebanana said:


> Patients is key.


If the patients have the key, how does the doctor get in the door?


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

One of the more useful tools for finding a loose neutral, for me, has been the Beast of Burden tool. Other than that, a couple halogen work lights do the trick too, bu they're getting rarer and rarer.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

You know the red Ideal rock candy type wire nuts with 5 # 12's twisted together inside them? Sometimes in that type of wirenut, the neutrals are not even all that tightly wound together and if you shake the bundle you can see the arc spark going on inside the twist of wires. Replace them with red wing nuts , tighten with that Ideal Blue or Red wire nut wrench and problem gone. In office buildings that's the first place I look for neutral loose/ missing issues.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

macmikeman said:


> You know the red Ideal rock candy type wire nuts with 5 # 12's twisted together inside them? Sometimes in that type of wirenut, the neutrals are not even all that tightly wound together and if you shake the bundle you can see the arc spark going on inside the twist of wires. Replace them with red wing nuts , tighten with that Ideal Blue or Red wire nut wrench and problem gone. In office buildings that's the first place I look for neutral loose/ missing issues.


Right. Above a drop ceiling or in a basement, any place that has an extension ring or three on the box is the first place I'm looking in the beginning of the divide and conquer effort on branch circuits.


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## deisele86 (Oct 19, 2018)

MDShunk said:


> One of the more useful tools for finding a loose neutral, for me, has been the Beast of Burden tool. Other than that, a couple halogen work lights do the trick too, bu they're getting rarer and rarer.


I had never heard of this till now. Thanks 

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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I like loose neutrals because I just run a new line to someplace past the break and re-feed the neutral.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

HackWork said:


> I like loose neutrals because I just run a new line to someplace past the break and re-feed the neutral.


When I read that, the only word that came to mind rhymes with assclown. :smile:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> When I read that, the only word that came to mind rhymes with assclown. :smile:


I will typically give it an hour. At that point if I can't find it, I will give the customer the choice of paying for a second hour with the possibility of still not finding it or just having me run a new line with a guarantee that it will work.

Most of the houses that I work in are 60-120 years old. They have generations of wiring that was mostly installed by handymen and homeowners. All houses have basements and attics, with most being finished illegally, covering up many junction boxes. Often times flying splices are left behind walls. So finding that break might be impossible, or at least unrealistic. 

What's wrong with running a new line to backfeed to neutral? Even if the break makes contact again, it won't hurt anything. 

BTW, what rhymes with assclown??? :vs_laugh::vs_laugh:


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

deisele86 said:


> What do you mean swapped? Like reverse polarity?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


 When you have multiple neutrals in a box, as in a MWBC, along other circuits, and circuits on the same "phase" are put on the wrong neutral and overload it. 

What do you mean "reverse polarity"? We're talking about AC, right? :wink:


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## oliquir (Jan 13, 2011)

bring a 1500w portable heater and measure N-G voltage at each outlet while heater is plugged and you will find where is the loose neutral on the circuit


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

MDShunk said:


> If the patients have the key, how does the doctor get in the door?


 All depends on how many nurses they have in there, maybe they don't want the doctor cutting in on the action. :vs_OMG:
I don't know about you, but there have been times when chasing an open neuch, that I reach a point where I just want to take a single jack to the drywall (to find that box that I just know is buried back there somewhere). And then, how I would explain that to the customer.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

joebanana said:


> What do you mean "reverse polarity"? We're talking about AC, right? :wink:


Do you know any electrician?


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

I never did a lot of Service Work.

My rotten neutrals were overwhelmingly to be found in crowded boxes with crowded Red Wire nuts.

Typically they'd have 'over-twist' -- that is -- some fool used a powered adapter to machine-crank the wire nut on.

This would cause at least one of the #12 conductors to B A R E L Y contact the twist zone. Then, later, as the box was corked up, the additional flexing would cause even that tiny connection to break down. (arc even) That such an event was under way would be shown by the scorched THHN hard upon the trouble spot.

Here's another funny one from New Construction: your apprentices make up three #12s under a Red Wire Nut without stripping back any of them. Everything looks perfect, but the circuit does not light up. Heh. Our trade is like burlesque, one MUST strip to heat things up.


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## deisele86 (Oct 19, 2018)

joebanana said:


> When you have multiple neutrals in a box, as in a MWBC, along other circuits, and circuits on the same "phase" are put on the wrong neutral and overload it.
> 
> What do you mean "reverse polarity"? We're talking about AC, right? :wink:


I got you now thanks for the clarification.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

#1....Push in connectors are the bomb
#2....walk around banging on each wall in the room (with hand-not tool)
2a...First , close to the outlet or switch box...if that doesn't yield an 
arc & bark , 
2b...try the ceiling light.

This is the field expedient way...
_expedient _cause i want the h**l away from this job as fast as possible.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

lighterup said:


> #1....Push in connectors are the bomb
> #2....walk around banging on each wall in the room (with hand-not tool)
> 2a...First , close to the outlet or switch box...if that doesn't yield an
> arc & bark ,
> ...


More often than not I have found an old octagon box for the kitchen or dinning room fixture with broken splices in it, you know the ones with porcelain wire nuts.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

MechanicalDVR said:


> More often than not I have found an old octagon box for the kitchen or dinning room fixture with broken splices in it, you know the ones with porcelain wire nuts.


Yep...for me ...most of the times I've troubleshoot these problems
it's been too many wires under a wire nut...just poor workmanship
handyman type crap

Matter of fact ...the last one a few months ago was in the attic
of a century home. Attic was rewired in new NM but attached to old K&T. The neutrals...about 8 #14 or 12's (???) were all hastily twisted together and covered in tape...not wire nut at all....all overcubed in a "way too small of a j-box (a 4" sq metal) and the arc& bark happened every time the neutral touched the box...which was how i knew it was the problem the moment I found it (all kinds of fresh black charring on the edge of the box.)


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

lighterup said:


> Yep...for me ...most of the times I've troubleshoot these problems
> it's been too many wires under a wire nut...just poor workmanship
> handyman type crap
> 
> ...


My favorite is the super small (@2 3/4") extra deep black iron ceiling box that started life with a gaslight attached. I can hardly get my fingers in there to make up a new connection. Maybe those boxes are more a regional thing, not sure.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

lighterup said:


> Yep...for me ...most of the times I've troubleshoot these problems
> it's been too many wires under a wire nut...just poor workmanship
> handyman type crap
> 
> ...


Just reminded me of something from the other day. I worked on an old j-box that the black schmutz wouldn't come off my fingers and I made a couple finger prints on the ceiling putting the thing back together. The old lady there saw me trying to wash that crap off my hands and gave me a rag with some vaseline on it and the crap came right off.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MechanicalDVR said:


> More often than not I have found an old octagon box for the kitchen or dinning room fixture with broken splices in it, you know the ones with porcelain wire nuts.


Yeah, and a lot of times they came out of the ceiling box with cables going down to each outlet in the room. So you have like 5 wires in each splice in a tiny box.


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

On a completely broken neutral a decent tracer should be able to find that with out a problem. 

If its loose i was wondering is you could use a meg between the panel and a place you know is broken then find it with ultra sound


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

MechanicalDVR said:


> My favorite is the super small (@2 3/4") extra deep *black iron ceiling box that started life with a gaslight attached*. I can hardly get my fingers in there to make up a new connection. Maybe those boxes are more a regional thing, not sure.


These are around here too.

the same house i was speaking of above has those and also 
has the original gas lights in it that were transitioned (IDK when) 
to electric via surface mounted wiring to a socket added in the old globe.

There are 2 of these , neither working. She wanted me to
troubleshoot them , but I just told her to buy new lights or take them,
to a lighting store to be rewired properly..
I don't want the the liability


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

HackWork said:


> Yeah, and a lot of times they came out of the ceiling box with cables going down to each outlet in the room. So you have like 5 wires in each splice in a tiny box.


Exactly!

Occasionally you'll come across an abortion in a second floor room where the box had a switched neutral and a handyman ran romex out to feed a new outlet or an attic fan...


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

lighterup said:


> These are around here too.
> 
> the same house i was speaking of above has those and also
> has the original gas lights in it that were transitioned (IDK when)
> ...


Around here some hack handyman would do the job and energize the fixture with an skinned piece of zip cord.


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

In a dwelling:

Look for most difficult paddle fan to take down, preferably centered over king-size water bed

Or the receptacle behind the large piano that can't be moved without scratching floor

Or in hot weather, a barely accessible junction box in attic, attic will have 30" of fluffy white insulation, framing will change directions at random, box will be as far as possible from scuttle hole

Or under house in crawl space where rats have torn insulation to shreds for nests, and then died

Happy Thanksgiving, everyone!


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## Gnome (Dec 25, 2013)

MechanicalDVR said:


> My favorite is the super small (@2 3/4") extra deep black iron ceiling box that started life with a gaslight attached. I can hardly get my fingers in there to make up a new connection. Maybe those boxes are more a regional thing, not sure.


Someone here put me onto Wago lever nuts and they are the bomb for this sort of thing or where some helpful person has cut the wires really short. you can get the nut in place with needle nose and then just snap the lever down.


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## tmessner (Apr 1, 2013)

HackWork said:


> Yeah, and a lot of times they came out of the ceiling box with cables going down to each outlet in the room. So you have like 5 wires in each splice in a tiny box.


And they made up the device and then pulled the slack back up to heaven.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

readydave8 said:


> In a dwelling:
> 
> Look for most difficult paddle fan to take down, preferably centered over king-size water bed
> 
> ...


You really cheered me up. :crying:


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## jelhill (Nov 11, 2018)

MechanicalDVR said:


> More often than not I have found an old octagon box for the kitchen or dinning room fixture with broken splices in it, you know the ones with porcelain wire nuts.


 
Going through all the receptacles with a polarity tester will often help find where the bad neutral starts (And ends) in a circuit.... especially if a dreaded stab-in terminal is causing the problem. If the problem was caused by a hidden splice that went bad, you can back-feed with a new neutral at any point on that circuit as you mentioned in a previous post. 


The last open neutral I encountered was caused by a wannabe electrician who was helping with remodeling a kitchen. When they had to remove a receptacle because it was in the way of a new cabinet, he simply stuffed an open splice into the wall.... he probably didn't twist the wires before he put the wire nut on the neutrals! I had to by-pass that run and fish new wires in so I could make a LEGAL splice IN A BOX in the attic. The manager of the remodeling company ratted him out and had to pay for my bill.


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## jelhill (Nov 11, 2018)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Exactly!
> 
> Occasionally you'll come across an abortion in a second floor room where the box had a switched neutral and a handyman ran romex out to feed a new outlet or an attic fan...


 
I had a service call several years ago and the wannabe electrician who did the original wiring had switched the neutral on every light in the house!!!!!


Ain't it exciting when you flip off the switch and the fixture is still hot?


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

jelhill said:


> I had a service call several years ago and the wannabe electrician who did the original wiring had switched the neutral on every light in the house!!!!!
> 
> 
> Ain't it exciting when you flip off the switch and the fixture is still hot?


25 years ago i bought my first home in the uk. I was standing on the coffee table changing light bulbs when my wife started nagging about shutting the breaker off. 

I told her i knew what i was doing the switch is off and its perfectly safe. "look i can stick my finger in the socket and it wont do nothing"

240 light socket hit me so hard i ended up falling of the coffee table and landing on the sofa. Yep turns out all the switch's in my house were switching the N rather than the hots and the main gfci works.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Gnome said:


> Someone here put me onto Wago lever nuts and they are the bomb for this sort of thing or where some helpful person has cut the wires really short. you can get the nut in place with needle nose and then just snap the lever down.


That is exactly how I have been doing them for a while but with such a narrow box stripping the conductor back to where the insulation isn't brittle is the bigger challenge, especially when the box is also buried an inch deep in plaster.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

jelhill said:


> I had a service call several years ago and the wannabe electrician who did the original wiring had switched the neutral on every light in the house!!!!!
> 
> 
> Ain't it exciting when you flip off the switch and the fixture is still hot?


In some areas with much older homes that was kind of a standard practice.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

MechanicalDVR said:


> That is exactly how I have been doing them for a while but with such a narrow box stripping the conductor back to where the insulation isn't brittle is the bigger challenge, especially when the box is also buried an inch deep in plaster.


These are a bit bulky but worth keeping around, not too bad at $25 at Amazon:


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

The philosophy from switching the neutral way back when was that you always had a hot available at the device for when you needed a tap.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

MechanicalDVR said:


> That is exactly how I have been doing them for a while but with such a narrow box stripping the conductor back to where the insulation isn't* brittle* is the bigger challenge, especially when the box is also buried an inch deep in plaster.


Maybe it's climate , temperature ranges changing regularly here
but I have noticed more often then not , its getting impossible to
find K&T that isn't brittle , no matter what you try to do.

This stuff is shot here.

I've seen it to where there is NO insulation left on ANY of it (in attics)
It's just the wire left between insulators and the floor of the attic is 
a fine black dust from the K&T insualtion dry rotting and falling off.

I'm at the point that I will not touch K&T and will try to convince
anyone owning a home with K&T they need a full rewire.

It's no longer maintainable.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MikeFL said:


> The philosophy from switching the neutral way back when was that you always had a hot available at the device for when you needed a tap.


What good is a hot without a neutral?


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

readydave8 said:


> In a dwelling:
> 
> Look for most difficult paddle fan to take down, preferably centered over king-size water bed
> 
> ...


This is a few examples of why I decided to scale my business and get out of the field. :vs_laugh:


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## jelhill (Nov 11, 2018)

MechanicalDVR said:


> That is exactly how I have been doing them for a while but with such a narrow box stripping the conductor back to where the insulation isn't brittle is the bigger challenge, especially when the box is also buried an inch deep in plaster.



Good deal... that is a great idea. Short wires and brittle insulation are frequent problems. My solution has been to use butt terminals. I think I will switch to Wagos. You guys have made a believer out of me!


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## jelhill (Nov 11, 2018)

flyboy said:


> This is a few examples of why I decided to scale my business and get out of the field. :vs_laugh:



And the attic was 110 degrees, and the crawl space was -10 degrees!!!! And me being 6' 2" and 240lbs, you can imagine how I usually would fit in both.


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## jelhill (Nov 11, 2018)

MechanicalDVR said:


> In some areas with much older homes that was kind of a standard practice.



Makes it even more exciting with someone has rewired a table lamp or fixture and ran the hot to the shell instead of the bottom contact! You think you are having a good day, grab your good old aluminum ladder and while holding the replacement bulb with two hands, the lead hand is holding the threaded shell! OUCH! Instead of your feet tingling, as mention in a earlier post today, your whole body tingles. :-(


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## jelhill (Nov 11, 2018)

MikeFL said:


> The philosophy from switching the neutral way back when was that you always had a hot available at the device for when you needed a tap.



Hmm... I can relate to that.


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

MikeFL said:


> The philosophy from switching the neutral way back when was that you always had a hot available at the device for when you needed a tap.


I thought it was due to the contacts in the switch lasting more cycles when connected to the N. I have been in a lot of older control panels where all the relays were switching the N and i was told it was to extend the relay contact life.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Let's stop talking about loose neutrals and concentrate on naturally loose women.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

telsa said:


> Let's stop talking about loose neutrals and concentrate on naturally loose women.



I saw one laying on the sidewalk this morning while driving my wife down thru Chinatown to go get the sashimi for tonight...... You can have her.


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

jelhill said:


> And the attic was 110 degrees, and the crawl space was -10 degrees!!!! And me being 6' 2" and 240lbs, you can imagine how I usually would fit in both.


Yeah, but I bet you sent in the small guy, like me at 5'7" and 140#s. I can hear it now. 

"Hey FLyboy, do me a big favor and squeeze in there for me. Ok, little buddy? I'm just too big and fat to fit in there. I'll buy the beer tonight!"


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## jelhill (Nov 11, 2018)

flyboy said:


> Yeah, but I bet you sent in the small guy, like me at 5'7" and 140#s. I can hear it now.
> 
> "Hey FLyboy, do me a big favor and squeeze in there for me. Ok, little buddy? I'm just too big and fat to fit in there. I'll buy the beer tonight!"


No... I had to do it myself. You were fired for being too short and for drinking too much beer!


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

jelhill said:


> No... I had to do it myself. You were fired for being too short and for drinking too much beer!


:vs_cry:


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

I set a personal record for bad neutrals this week, the complaint was lights flickering and batch computer was wonky. When the printer printed a ticket the lights flickered and the control shut down or went nuts. A quick check with the 260-8 showed voltage fluctuations with load. This was fed with a MWBC, ran down the neutral and it was loose. A quick tighten with a screwdriver and it's fixed, umm no. I look some more and the main neutral on the bus is loose, now it's fixed, umm still no. I'm looking like a goof to the IT guys now, this is a sub panel in the control room fed from the belly of the plant, so down I go with tools and 260 to the main single phase panel. After more testing I find the sub panel feed is tight but corroded from al-cu reaction from no noalox and ever present moisture in a agg room. I finally find a screw on the bus that will come loose and cut off the neutral and put it in the new location, success at last.
A new CH-CH panel was ordered to replace the battered old panel there. This plant is the gift of work that keeps on giving.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

macmikeman said:


> I saw one laying on the sidewalk this morning while driving my wife down thru Chinatown to go get the sashimi for tonight...... You can have her.


That's not a naturally loose woman, that's a fallen woman. 

She's not only hit the wall, she's hit the sidewalk.

Don't bring your rejects to this esteemed forum. :devil3:

If you'd have said Hotel Street, then a tranny it would've been. :sad:

BTW, get your sashimi from the Japanese part of town. Any other ethnicity is suspect.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

telsa said:


> That's not a naturally loose woman, that's a fallen woman.
> 
> She's not only hit the wall, she's hit the sidewalk.
> 
> ...


You Wong. Berry good sashimi at Chinese Market. Cannot go to Tamashiro's any more, they failed the health dept inspection, and were at the center of the hep A fiasco. Tesla, we own (we being wife's family side) a big sushi and bento catering outfit. Feeds Kam School and Punahou every day. They know all about where to get what.


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

macmikeman said:


> I saw one laying on the sidewalk this morning while driving my wife down thru Chinatown to go get the sashimi for tonight......* You can have her.*



Your wife or the woman on the sidewalk?:smile:


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

A Little Short said:


> Your wife or the woman on the sidewalk?:smile:


Both.


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## jelhill (Nov 11, 2018)

HackWork said:


> What good is a hot without a neutral?


How many times have you seen a DIY’er use the ground for a neutral? At least they will sometimes wrap The bare conductor with white 33. :vs_OMG:

Come to think about,,, I have seen them use the ground as a hot wrapped with black tape.


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## jelhill (Nov 11, 2018)

jelhill said:


> Hmm... I can relate to that.


Happened a lot with knob and tube... tap the hot and pick up a neutral for it down the line somewhere. Trying to sort out a circuit in an attic full of k&t that look like spaghetti was insane!

A tic tracer was useless because ALL the neutrals had back-feed on them.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

jelhill said:


> How many times have you seen a DIY’er use the ground for a neutral? At least they will sometimes wrap The bare conductor with white 33. :vs_OMG:
> 
> Come to think about,,, I have seen them use the ground as a hot wrapped with black tape.


I don't think that is it. When would someone knowingly switch the neutral so keep the hot constant in the light box to be able to tap off of it if they would have to use the ground for a neutral for whatever they added? Hell, a lot of these installations were before there was a real EGC.


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## CTshockhazard (Aug 28, 2009)

MechanicalDVR said:


> That is exactly how I have been doing them for a while but with such a narrow box stripping the conductor back to where the insulation isn't brittle is the bigger challenge, especially when the box is also buried an inch deep in plaster.



Yeah, but once they're stripped you know you love that extra box depth! :biggrin:


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

HackWork said:


> I don't think that is it. When would someone knowingly switch the neutral so keep the hot constant in the light box to be able to tap off of it if they would have to use the ground for a neutral for whatever they added? Hell, a lot of these installations were before there was a real EGC.


I haven't seen it a lot, but the only places that switched the neutral on purpose were old without EGC.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

splatz said:


> These are a bit bulky but worth keeping around, not too bad at $25 at Amazon:


I have a similar one but some boxes are to narrow and deep, I've had to use a pair of end nippers to strip with.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

lighterup said:


> Maybe it's climate , temperature ranges changing regularly here
> but I have noticed more often then not , its getting impossible to
> find K&T that isn't brittle , no matter what you try to do.
> 
> ...



That sounds like a decent chance to make some bucks on the rewire but a hassle for the HO.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

jelhill said:


> Good deal... that is a great idea. Short wires and brittle insulation are frequent problems. My solution has been to use butt terminals. I think I will switch to Wagos. You guys have made a believer out of me!


You can get good installing them with needle nose pliers.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

CTshockhazard said:


> Yeah, but once they're stripped you know you love that extra box depth! :biggrin:


In some cases extra box depth is a real blessing. :wink:


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## warrenmanne (Aug 25, 2018)

I'll back feed the circuit with a neutral only. I use a very sketchy extension cord to do this. This helps you determine the good neutral connections on the circuit going Back to the panel. Ive found this method takes a lot of the guess work out of trying to decide where to start opening boxes up. Just look for what's still not working on that circuit and start where you think is the furthest point downstream. 

I'll never refeed a neutral only if i can't find the break, I'll re feed the whole circuit. The broken neutral is not always a clean break, and leaving it alone can cause a fire. 

I got shocked more times from learning how to troubleshoot a broken neutral than any thing else. 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

warrenmanne said:


> I'll never refeed a neutral only if i can't find the break, I'll re feed the whole circuit. The broken neutral is not always a clean break, and leaving it alone can cause a fire.


How could that happen? Refeeding it gives it a good path back.


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## warrenmanne (Aug 25, 2018)

HackWork said:


> How could that happen? Refeeding it gives it a good path back.


Refeeding only the neutral still leaves a bad neutral connection somewhere, and the potential for a glowing hot splice. It's also a violation because you're going to be using a hot and neutral that aren't in the same cable or raceway. You would have to find the bad neutral connection to re feed that circuit correctly/ safely. You have to replace the both conductors, not just get a neutral to where you need it. 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

warrenmanne said:


> Refeeding only the neutral still leaves a bad neutral connection somewhere, and the potential for a glowing hot splice.


 That potential was there long before you ever arrived. The old connection burnt up, the new one will be solid.



> It's also a violation because you're going to be using a hot and neutral that aren't in the same cable or raceway.


Only if using a metal box, right? And only if you don't make some vent holes around the KO? This is a silly code to worry about in the first place.


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## warrenmanne (Aug 25, 2018)

HackWork said:


> That potential was there long before you ever arrived. The old connection burnt up, the new one will be solid.
> 
> 
> 
> Only if using a metal box, right? And only if you don't make some vent holes around the KO? This is a silly code to worry about in the first place.


I can't tell if you're being serious, or you actually go about your day doing "HackWork". Our job is to make things safe and follow the code. It's got nothing to do with metal boxes. And we can't just arbitrarily decide which codes are less important. They're all there for a reason. The wires themselves will overheat if the current doesn't cancel itself out by placing the conductors next to each other. 

If you can't actually see the "burnt up" connection, how can you be sure its actually burnt up? It could be that its in the winter time so that connection in the attic had contracted and is now broken. Come summertime the metals expand and you're back to a barely there connection that's just getting hot cause of the resistance. 

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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

warrenmanne said:


> I can't tell if you're being serious, or you actually go about your day doing "HackWork". Our job is to make things safe and follow the code.


 Not really. We all break code. Anyone who says differently is lying.



> It's got nothing to do with metal boxes.


 Ok, then cite the code you are speaking about. 



> And we can't just arbitrarily decide which codes are less important.


 Yes, we can. See my first sentence.



> They're all there for a reason.


 A large portion of them are there for design reasons, which the code specifically says it is not intended to do. Another huge portion is there for the express purpose of making manufacturers money. Then there is all the stuff that is in there to make academics feel like they accomplished something by getting their work into the code book. In the end, very little is actually about real world safety.



> The wires themselves will overheat if the current doesn't cancel itself out by placing the conductors next to each other.


 I am waiting for the code section I asked you to cite earlier. 



> If you can't actually see the "burnt up" connection, how can you be sure its actually burnt up?


 Splatz will be happy to hear this: A megger.



> It could be that its in the winter time so that connection in the attic had contracted and is now broken. Come summertime the metals expand and you're back to a barely there connection that's just getting hot cause of the resistance.


 True. That is the way it was for the last 2 years that the problem was happening and the homeowner didn't call an electrician. But now that the electrician ran the new neutral, the current has a low resistance path back.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

warrenmanne said:


> I can't tell if you're being serious, or you actually go about your day doing "HackWork". Our job is to make things safe and follow the code. It's got nothing to do with metal boxes. And we can't just arbitrarily decide which codes are less important. They're all there for a reason. The wires themselves will overheat if the current doesn't cancel itself out by placing the conductors next to each other.
> 
> If you can't actually see the "burnt up" connection, how can you be sure its actually burnt up? It could be that its in the winter time so that connection in the attic had contracted and is now broken. Come summertime the metals expand and you're back to a barely there connection that's just getting hot cause of the resistance.


Nice troll post. Go back to Mike Holt's forum.


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## warrenmanne (Aug 25, 2018)

MTW said:


> Nice troll post. Go back to Mike Holt's forum.


How is this a troll? Pete, is that you? 

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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

warrenmanne said:


> MTW said:
> 
> 
> > Nice troll post. Go back to Mike Holt's forum.
> ...


:yes:


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

warrenmanne said:


> I can't tell if you're being serious, or you actually go about your day doing "HackWork". Our job is to make things safe and follow the code. It's got nothing to do with metal boxes. And we can't just arbitrarily decide which codes are less important. They're all there for a reason. *The wires themselves will overheat if the current doesn't cancel itself out by placing the conductors next to each other.
> *
> If you can't actually see the "burnt up" connection, how can you be sure its actually burnt up? It could be that its in the winter time so that connection in the attic had contracted and is now broken. Come summertime the metals expand and you're back to a barely there connection that's just getting hot cause of the resistance.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Warren, if you ever get out by me, I'll be happy to introduce you to old houses with knob and tube wiring , and a lot of them they ran the hot down one side of the attic and the nut down the other side of the attic. Twenty feet apart. No overheating. Might be electromagnetic fields , but those are invisible. But no overheating. 

The danger is when there is metal conduits encasing the separated hot and neutral returns. And when that is done, I HAVE seen emt that was so hot it was untouchable or your hand would be burnt. There is a danger in that. Not in cables.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

warrenmanne said:


> How is this a troll? Pete, is that you?


Hi Frunkslammer.


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## warrenmanne (Aug 25, 2018)

macmikeman said:


> Warren, if you ever get out by me, I'll be happy to introduce you to old houses with knob and tube wiring , and a lot of them they ran the hot down one side of the attic and the nut down the other side of the attic. Twenty feet apart. No overheating. Might be electromagnetic fields , but those are invisible. But no overheating.
> 
> The danger is when there is metal conduits encasing the separated hot and neutral returns. And when that is done, I HAVE seen emt that was so hot it was untouchable or your hand would be burnt. There is a danger in that. Not in cables.


I don't need you to introduce me to anything, i've seen knob and tube. Have you tried using the wifi in a home that's still using knob and tube anywhere? 

Yes, 215.4, and 300.20 specifically refers to ferrous metals. But the idea is the same, we need to try to reduce electromagnetic interference. Especially with modern electronics and wireless signals that we depend on. And if you think that kind of stuff isn't your problem, i don't want to hear about it. 

Theres always someone who gets butthurt because i say I'd never do something. That doesn't mean you can't do it. It's usually something stupid too, like not taking the time just connect that black wire in the romex instead of only using the neutral, or running the "fix" from an outlet with a permanent hot instead of a switched light in the attic cause it was easier. 

Or in Pete's case, I'm willing to spend a few extra pennies. He gets offended if you're not cheap. 

This OP asked for suggestions and opinions, that's all i gave. Hack came at me, he didn't like that i said i wouldn't do something.

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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

warrenmanne said:


> Yes, 215.4, and 300.20 specifically refers to ferrous metals. But the idea is the same,


Earlier in your holier than thou speech you told us about following code, not ideas.



> we need to try to reduce electromagnetic interference.


 Nope, that is most certainly not in my job description nor is it what the customer wants. They want their lights back on, not their walls torn open to find a hidden box with an open neutral connection.



> Theres always someone who gets butthurt because i say I'd never do something.


 You are the only butthurt person here. You spouted off about code yet you can't even cite the code you were speaking of.

Just admit it, you're wrong.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

warrenmanne said:


> It's also a violation because you're going to be using a hot and neutral that aren't in the same cable or raceway.





HackWork said:


> Only if using a metal box, right? And only if you don't make some vent holes around the KO? This is a silly code to worry about in the first place.





warrenmanne said:


> *It's got nothing to do with metal boxes*. And we can't just arbitrarily decide which codes are less important. They're all there for a reason. *The wires themselves will overheat if the current doesn't cancel itself out by placing the conductors next to each other. *





HackWork said:


> Ok, then cite the code you are speaking about.





> I am waiting for the code section I asked you to cite earlier.


All I expect is for you to be responsible for the words that you post. 

You made a big deal about following code, how they are all there for a reason, etc. Yet you are posting things that don't actually exist in code, and your reasoning is because you think it's our duty to combat interference?? :vs_laugh::vs_laugh:

I think you're right Peter, it's gotta be FrunkSlammer trolling.


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